# Just finished Hillman fetch video.



## Tommy Wallace (Jun 13, 2008)

I just finished the Bill Hillman fetch video & I understand everything that I seen & what was said. How ever, It is not like that in real life for most people. It always seems that with each one of these dog training videos they seem to
always use a dog that is an EXCELLENT candidate. The dog he was using he had been working with since the dog was a puppy. I heard him say he had been throwing bumpers for her since she was 10 weeks old. 
A lot of trainers & retriever owners when they get a lot of dogs they get them around 5 months or older & when thrown a bumper they either run to it & don't pick it up or they run out to the dummy & stand there & look at you like you are the dummy. A lot of people don't prep the pup like he would, but they still want the dog to retrieve & hunt. So, is Bill saying the dogs that will retrieve as a young pup we can TEACH them to FETCH & the ones that want we throw away instead of forcing. 
I would like to see it to where you have a dog that want retrieve & see how that method works & if that method don't work lets see how you take a dog that want retrieve at all & show us what to do. 
A lot of dogs for hunters don't come like the dog he had & a lot of dogs that trainers get have to be actually FORCED & if so that is what I want to see. I am not damning Bill & his method I am just saying I would like to see some REALITY & if all dogs were like that dog he was working we would not need trainers at all, anyone could do that.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

I mostly do obedience with my dog and though I have a trainer in real life, I have purchased videos of trainers I respected. 

"Oh, look, I am blessed with a 10 week old puppy who retrieves a dumb bell AND already knows the hold command!"

Ugh.

I did find another trainer, just as successful as the other trainers, who does not sell videos but posts blogs of her training her dogs (she does seminars and classes, etc.). She shows in the videos her mistakes and talks about how she corrected them or shows the mistakes which explained why the dog did what he did and how it was not the dog's fault, but poor handling. She will admit when she didn't have a good plan or when she asked for too much too soon. Lots of "lessons learned". This was with malanois with pedigrees that set her up for success -- dogs she bred herself. So, what did she do? She ran out and got a rescue terrier mixed breed who was an older puppy and is now training him, mistakes and all, online, for free, for everyone to see. 

It's pretty awesome and really humanizes her while showing the rest of the world some of the issues you might face, why and how to fix them. And, it's also created a safe place for others to admit and show their mistakes, ask for help and/or share with others what they've done wrong and how they fixed it.


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## Todd Herderhurst (Nov 7, 2012)

I believe Bill would try and build that desire to retrieve in the dog before he moved on the reinforcing the fetch command. He has other videos discussing how he goes about working on that.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I agree Nikki that many training videos (not just Hillmann's) show dogs that have had the training needed to 'do well' for the shooting of the video, and perhaps are meant to be examples of how training 'ideally' progresses. To follow Bill's FF (Taught fetch, really) process, I do believe you truly have to have a dog that has had the prey drive intensified quite a bit. This is why he works on the 'on/off' switch so much.

I think one reason many of the available training videos don't show the dogs that have a hard time is because there are too many scenarios where things don't go exactly as planned to be able to cover in the DVD. Troubleshooting is an entirely different subject and very individual for every dog. This is where knowing how to train, how to read the dog, and adjust training becomes the responsibility of the owner/trainer. This is where going to seminars and clinics comes into play.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Tobias said:


> I agree Nikki that many training videos (not just Hillmann's) show dogs that have had the training needed to 'do well' for the shooting of the video, and perhaps are meant to be examples of how training 'ideally' progresses. To follow Bill's FF (Taught fetch, really) process, I do believe you truly have to have a dog that has had the prey drive intensified quite a bit. This is why he works on the 'on/off' switch so much.
> 
> I think one reason many of the available training videos don't show the dogs that have a hard time is because there are too many scenarios where things don't go exactly as planned to be able to cover in the DVD. Troubleshooting is an entirely different subject and very individual for every dog. This is where knowing how to train, how to read the dog, and adjust training becomes the responsibility of the owner/trainer. This is where going to seminars and clinics comes into play.


Force training is special and individual, I would recommend you take a lesson from a pro not a DVD and don't expect to get the same results.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

A DVD can't show everything and Hillmann's Fetch DVD is for a dog that has been brought up in his system or has a strong desire to want the object. At the point where you would begin his fetch program you should have developed a desire and drive to want the bumper. He has many videos on his YouTube channel describing how to develop desire.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> A DVD can't show everything and Hillmann's Fetch DVD is for a dog that has been brought up in his system or has a strong desire to want the object. At the point were you would begin his fetch program you should have developed a desire and drive to want the bumper. He has many videos on his YouTube channel describing how to develop *desire*.


Really?
Think about that again...


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Really?
> Think about that again...


lesson 1 of 7

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5y3z7THH4


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Think about the desire you just stated. Is it desire or drive?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

All I said was Hillmann has "many videos on his YouTube channel describing how to develop desire" and the title of the video is "Developing Dive and Desire"


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> All I said was Hillmann has "many videos on his YouTube channel describing how to develop desire." And title of the video is "Developing Dive and Desire"


OK peace... all is good. 
Drive is different from desire. OK?
They have it or they don't.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> OK peace... all is good.
> Drive is different from desire. OK?
> They have it or they don't.


Technically to "develop" something it must already be present. Develop by definition means to "grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate."

I didn't say you must create desire. Bill states in one of those lessons that he is trying to develop as much desire as "genetically possible". I would think that most if not all retrievers have at least some desire. It is the trainer's job to develop that desire.


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## BHC (Oct 23, 2012)

I think based on my reach and the email I received from Mary hillman on the DVDs, that the dog has to go thru the puppy training DVD before moving on to the fetch DVD. Meaning they have to have developed desire that have to want to chase something and be excited about its they also need to be very steady. So you are right a trainer could just a six month old dog n jump into fetch DVD style training, they'd need to start further back in the puppy DVD stuff to get ready for that. But all the same I don't think any traditional FF ppl are force fetching dogs before they've instilled some strong fetching desire prior whether they know the actual fetch word or not...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> I guess technically to "develop" something it must already be present. Develop by definition means to "grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate."
> 
> I didn't say you must create desire. Bill states in one of those lessons that he is trying to develop as much desire as "genetically possible". I would think that most if not all retrievers have at least some desire. It is the trainers job to develop that desire.


Don't guess...Seek those who know and don't rely on a boiler plate for all fits all. OK?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

BHC said:


> I think based on my reach and the email I received from Mary hillman on the DVDs, that the dog has to go thru the puppy training DVD before moving on to the fetch DVD. Meaning they have to have developed desire that have to want to chase something and be excited about its they also need to be very steady. So you are right a trainer could just a six month old dog n jump into fetch DVD style training, they'd need to start further back in the puppy DVD stuff to get ready for that. But all the same I don't think any traditional FF ppl are force fetching dogs before they've instilled some strong fetching desire prior whether they know the actual fetch word or not...


Your terms are wrong...There is no such thing as desire... Cart before the horse.  I have the desire in human terms.

Edit: And I might add that you are thinking too much in human terms.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Bradybuck said:


> Technically to "develop" something it must already be present. Develop by definition means to "grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate."
> 
> I didn't say you must create desire. Bill states in one of those lessons that he is trying to develop as much desire as "genetically possible". I would think that most if not all retrievers have at least some desire. It is the trainers job to develop that desire.


Here you go BJ I fixed it.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> Here you go BJ I fixed it.


Desire is a human concept...Understanding dogs can become a human concept provided we know the animal.
Big difference...


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Desire is a human concept...Understanding dogs can become a human concept provided we know the animal.
> Big difference...


Not true. I agree human desire and the desire in animals if different but animals do feel desire.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> Not true. I agree Human desire and the desire in animals if different but animals do feel desire.


And are you one of those who hug trees as well?
Do I need to donate to your organization?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Honestly I just think we have a different definition of what desire is.

Desire is the strong feeling of wanting to have or do something. I believe dogs have strong feelings to want or to do things.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> Honestly I just think we have a different definition of what desire is.
> 
> Desire is the strong feeling of wanting to have or do something. I believe dogs have strong feelings to want or to do things.


Wrong again...
You need to read on what fido is all about....
Packs don't have feelings....


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Ok so you don't believe a dog is ever happy, sad or scared?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> Ok so you don't believe a dog is ever happy, sad or scared?


Dog in primitive means from their genes will accept the pack animal and that is it. That will take time through your intervention. 
It's not guarantee of course with some breeds.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Dog in primitive means from their genes will accept the pack animal and that is it. That will take time through your intervention.
> It's not guarantee of course with some breeds.


Ok but do you believe a dog can ever be happy, sad or scared?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> Ok but do you believe a dog can ever be happy, sad or scared?


I am a human and they are a dog....
If I become a dog, then I will give you first hand information on their emotion. OK?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> I am a human and they are a dog....
> If I become a dog, then I will give you first hand information on their emotion. OK?



So you admit they have emotions?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> So you admit they have emotions?


No...I admit they are a dog...


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> Desire is a human concept...Understanding dogs can become a human concept provided we know the animal.
> Big difference...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5y3z7THH4


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5y3z7THH4


Drive is inherent...Desire is a human thing...


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Hormones play a large role in human emotion and dogs and humans share many of the same hormones from adrenaline to oxytocin.

I am in no way shape or form trying to say that dogs experience the same range and complexity of emotions and feelings that humans do. I want to make that clear.



BJ, you now claim to have no insight or clue into a dog's emotional state or that you have any idea if they even have emotions so how can you claim to know that a dog does not have desire.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> Hormones play a large role in human emotion and dogs and humans share many of the same hormones from adrenaline to oxytocin.
> 
> I am in no way shape or form trying to say that dogs experience the same range and complexity of emotions and feelings that humans do. I want to make that clear.
> 
> ...


LOL...
When the time comes and you understand what I am saying and provided I am still on this forum...you can ask again later. OK?

Dad...I love you....I am sorry it took so long in your understanding for me to understand....
I understand now...
I am through with this thread. 
Learn from your own folks and hope your audience understands from your experience....well...maybe not but be patient with those.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

How can I understand what your talking about?

You offer no explanation. You offer no facts. You resort to saying "if I become a dog I'll give you first hand information" and " All I admit is that they are a dog"


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the late night BJ Zone.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

KwickLabs said:


> You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the late night BJ Zone.


Thats funny Jim

Brady, he just loves to stir the pot, the only way to cut him off is to turn off the stove.


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

I think of stuff like this when I read his posts.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> Don't guess...Seek those who know and don't rely on a boiler plate for all fits all. OK?


BJ, why don't you get Bill on the phone and coach him up on proper use of these terms.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Not to get off topic but how do you "ignore" someone?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Fetch Command is not the first DVD a person should be watching or trying to implement. I don't believe it is at all common, but if you get a dog at 5-6 months of age, you are either a pro trainer and it is a client dog, in which case you should not be trying to apply training you've watched once on a DVD, or you are a new owner and should start from scratch with the puppy stuff. Get him to chase something, sit, and walk on lead. 

DVDs are great tools, but you can't watch them once through and "get it". You also can't train in a vacuum. You train with others (this doesn't mean you abandon your chosen program or method), you talk to others who've successfully used the program or method, you attend seminars or workshops, and you watch the dvds and take copious notes like you are studying for finals. I trained the dogs in my signature line by following this approach and used Hillmann's puppy DVD on the last 3 dogs before transitioning to Lardy's TRT. Believe me, every answer that you need is in the DVDs you just have to get in there and find it.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> *I am a human and they are a dog....*
> If I become a dog, then I will give you first hand information on their emotion. OK?





If you were a dog you would be a Silver Labradoodle.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> Drive is inherent...Desire is a human thing...


Too difficult to enlighten you!!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> BJ, why don't you get Bill on the phone and coach him up on proper use of these terms.


BJ this is a good suggestion.


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## BHC (Oct 23, 2012)

I do t think anyone can train a dog to be a good retriever without it first having some drive, desire, or whatever instilled in it. U may get a dog with no drive to retrieve, but he will only do it cuz he had to, and you can definitely tell those dogs from the ones who enjoy the game!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

KwickLabs said:


> You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the late night BJ Zone.


ahahahaha... what a great morning laugh.

Bradybuck - just block him. It is easy. LOL


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Nikki Malarky said:


> I just finished the Bill Hillman fetch video & I understand everything that I seen & what was said. How ever, It is not like that in real life for most people. It always seems that with each one of these dog training videos they seem to
> always use a dog that is an EXCELLENT candidate. The dog he was using he had been working with since the dog was a puppy. I heard him say he had been throwing bumpers for her since she was 10 weeks old.
> A lot of trainers & retriever owners when they get a lot of dogs they get them around 5 months or older & when thrown a bumper they either run to it & don't pick it up or they run out to the dummy & stand there & look at you like you are the dummy. A lot of people don't prep the pup like he would, but they still want the dog to retrieve & hunt. So, is Bill saying the dogs that will retrieve as a young pup we can TEACH them to FETCH & the ones that want we throw away instead of forcing.
> I would like to see it to where you have a dog that want retrieve & see how that method works & if that method don't work lets see how you take a dog that want retrieve at all & show us what to do.
> A lot of dogs for hunters don't come like the dog he had & a lot of dogs that trainers get have to be actually FORCED & if so that is what I want to see. I am not damning Bill & his method I am just saying I would like to see some REALITY & if all dogs were like that dog he was working we would not need trainers at all, anyone could do that.


Hi Nikki,

I'm going to try and answer your question since this thread seems to have gotten sidetracked as many times they do.

I just got off the phone with Bill and asked him your exact question because I've just recently begun to take outside dogs in for training. Previously I trained my own dogs and have owned them since they were puppies. All of them have had exceptional drive due to their excellent pedigrees. Most of them probably had too much drive which is another problem!

By taking on other people's dogs I am encountering a few dogs that have low drive and/or are very soft. He reminded me that these type of dogs require a totally different approach from what I've been used to, and he directed me to watch a series of videos he made titled, "Developing Drive and Desire".

Bill reminded me that he has trained dogs for many, many years and not all of them have had tremendous desire. Bill and Mary even did a remake of their puppy video in order to show various personalities as opposed to just one dog. Since it is impossible to get a broad spectrum of many dog personalities into one video, they have constantly added videos to their YouTube page to address the many variations. I'll call these the their mini-series.

There is one 'mini-series' called DEVELOPING DRIVE AND DESIRE which I highly recommend for those who have dogs with low prey drive or desire. In this series Bill works with a young Golden Retriever named 'Tart' out of show lines and not field lines. There is a total of 8 clips which will show you the steps involved in creating desire to retrieve.

I think the most important thing I heard him say is that, "*FRUSTRATION CREATES DESIRE*". He goes on to say that this excitement exercise is way more important than you can realize in that it 1) Develops desire in the dog 2) creates the attitude for learning 3) creates a bond between you and the dog and 4) creates the ON / OFF switch.

Here is a link to that mini-series 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5y3z7THH4&list=PLofKRn7j18jC1IIf2OpXh8CsEmL3thwE2

It would also be an excellent series to watch for someone who has an older dog that occasionally lacks motivation or a high prey drive dog that doesn't know how to turn it OFF. Bill talks about this in Lesson 5.

Once you have the desire created then Bill shows you how to introduce the FETCH command before the dog actually grabs the bumper. This is in lesson 6. This is an introduction to his FETCH video also.

I would advise anyone who is having trouble with an unmotivated dog to watch this mini-series on Bill's YouTube page. With this knowledge anyone should be able to make any type of dog retrieve by 'Developing Drive and Desire'!.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Here is another video to display that 'FRUSTRATION CREATES DESIRE'. As I said earlier in this series, I gave Bill a call about a couple of dogs that I had in for training which showed very LOW retrieving desire even with birds. I asked him how do you teach a dog with low desire to WANT to retrieve?? 

His answer was his 'FETCH' video. I watched it again and used the technique with Emma, a 'SILVER LAB'. Yes, a Silver Lab with virtually no hunting retriever background. He said that he knew I could do it, and yes YOU can too.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Thank you for sharing this Tammy. It is nice to see the results of this sort of training on a dog with little drive. It would have been neat to see a 'before' video too, to compare.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Well the before video would have been pretty boring! Just imagine her and I standing together when I throw something. Then imagine her and I still standing together. ;-)

She had absolutely no interest in putting a duck in her mouth before I started doing this with her. We still need work on ducks, so I'll make a couple recordings this week to show the progress.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Bradybuck said:


> How can I understand what your talking about?
> 
> You offer no explanation. You offer no facts. You resort to saying "if I become a dog I'll give you first hand information" and " All I admit is that they are a dog"


You must either go to bed earlier or learn to understand BJ


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I think I just visited the Twilight Zone.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

duk4me said:


> I think I just visited the Twilight Zone.


I thought that TV show ended years ago, but I guess its back


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Tobias said:


> Thank you for sharing this Tammy. It is nice to see the results of this sort of training on a dog with little drive. It would have been neat to see a 'before' video too, to compare.


Here is the bird video I made from this weekend. Hopefully you can see the difference here with her disinterest in the birds at first and then actually retrieving them.






If you have an interest in watching her progression with birds, just follow Ragin' Retrievers on Youtube.


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