# Shoud Breeder Test Puppies For EIC ??



## obsessed (Aug 3, 2010)

What are your thoughts ??
Should a breeder test puppies for EIC when they know one parent is a carrier and one parent clear ?
This would seem to help the buyer make a decision on which pup to buy if there is a choice in case they might want to breed in the future.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

NO, they should KNOW that 1 least one parent is clear. Does not matter past that...all pups will be UN affected and be breedable.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

As a buyer if I would want to know whether I was buying clear or carrier.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

obsessed said:


> What are your thoughts ??
> Should a breeder test puppies for EIC when they know one parent is a carrier and one parent clear ?
> This would seem to help the buyer make a decision on which pup to buy if there is a choice in case they might want to breed in the future.


Most breeders don't sell their pups for the purposes of breeding the pup. They sell the pup for its performance potential. If you want breeding potential in addition to performance potential then you won't likely get access to the best litters where one parent is a carrier because litters in demand will have enough performance buyers to sell their pups. If you can negotiate a "clear" pups from a breeder, then expect to pay the $65 testing fee plus any related vet fees to confirm it in addition to the price of the pup.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

It depends. Clear is equal to more moolah. I have no problem buying a carrier but a lot of people do. Especially males. It all depends on the circumstance.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

IMO a person that is breeding should only be doing so to better the breed. With that being said, I really don't believe that a responsible breeder should breed a carrier in the first place. They wouldn't dream of breeding a dog with PRA or hip dysplasia but we as a whole seem to have accepted EIC as the norm when we should be getting it out of the breed. IMO yes, they should be testing the puppies and should also have the carriers spayed or neutered and sell them for considerably less.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Carriers ARE NOT AFFECTED. Would you have us cull all the FC AFC EIC carriers? Even the "makers" of the test specifically state NOT to take the carriers out of the gene pool due to ONE genetic anomaly. But then, the responsible breeders already know this.....

P.S. I also have a "gasp" PRA Carrier that I have bred, and will again! And I love a certain CNM & EIC carrier as a potential stud dog as well!


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Tony Marshall said:


> IMO a person that is breeding should only be doing so to better the breed. With that being said, I really don't believe that a responsible breeder should breed a carrier in the first place. They wouldn't dream of breeding a dog with PRA or hip dysplasia but we as a whole seem to have accepted EIC as the norm when we should be getting it out of the breed. IMO yes, they should be testing the puppies and should also have the carriers spayed or neutered and sell them for considerably less.


You're kidding right? You have equated an EIC carrier with dogs affected with PRA or hip dysplasia. Carriers are not affected & are just as healthy as EIC clear dogs. The primary reason for testing is to avoid affected dogs. And your equations are not even logical & scientifically accurate when it comes to hip dysplasia. There is no test to determine carriers of hip issues but we know conclusively that dogs with excellent hips have produced dysplastic dogs. In fact we don't even have conclusive evidence of how it is inherited (if it is). And what would you do with the other 25-39 recessive inherited traits that most every pure breed dog is considered by science to be carrying? 

Let's just wipe the most prolific sire in the history of field Labs right off the map with that opinion along with a number of excellent sires & bitches who most would breed to every day.........


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Tony Marshall said:


> With that being said, I really don't believe that a responsible breeder should breed a carrier in the first place.


Let's say it again: a carrier is NOT AFFECTED.

The genetics of the disease are really not that hard to understand. 

I bred my girl, a clear, to a carrier that's been dead for 16 years. And I probably have one of the best pups I've ever bred, drive and structure wise, from that litter.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Hahahahahahahaha, LMAO, haven't had a good ol' don't breed the EIC carriers trashtalk in a while. What's up next on the menu, silvers? British Labs? English Cream Goldens? Doodles? 

Which betters the breed (oh how I hate that phrase): FC AFC with lots of AA points, OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, eyes, great temperament, not bad looking, both parents FC AFC and pedigree going back thru the ages. EIC carrier.

Chocolate female from nothing pedigree, no parents on OFA, no known history, failed multiple JH/SH tests, OFA hips/elbows/eyes, EIC clear. 

Hmmmm, no brainer for me, I can work around EIC and CNM carriers with a simple, cheap test to avoid producing affected pups. Now someone please find a simple, cheap test for brains, talent, trainability and longevity. Not necessarily confined to canines either.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Most breeders don't sell their pups for the purposes of breeding the pup. They sell the pup for its performance potential. If you want breeding potential in addition to performance potential then you won't likely get access to the best litters where one parent is a carrier because litters in demand will have enough performance buyers to sell their pups. If you can negotiate a "clear" pups from a breeder, then* expect to pay the $65 testing fee plus any related vet fees to confirm it in addition to the price of the pup*.


I think you need to be prepared to pay for the testing on all the pups of the particular sex you are seeking, if the breeder had no intention of doing it. That is what I did on a stud fee puppy. But, my "pick" wound up being clear anyway. I just wanted to know ahead of time what I was getting.


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## PennyRetrievers (Mar 29, 2013)

Having bought out of a CNM carrier possible litter, (our pup was clear) and bred to an EIC carrier (an amazing dog, to boot) I don't worry about whether or not a dog is a carrier. I'd buy out of a litter of possible carriers - because there are enough good dogs that if I decided I did ever want to breed that dog, I'd have plenty of options.

There are TONS of good dogs out there. Owning a carrier will limit you, sure. But there are enough good dogs in North America that you can breed for what you're looking for without having to worry.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Breeders can test for whatever they want. If a puppy buyer wants a pup you play by the breeders rules. If you dont like what the breeder is doing then go somewhere else.


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## Trifecta (May 17, 2013)

Tony Marshall said:


> IMO a person that is breeding should only be doing so to better the breed. With that being said, I really don't believe that a responsible breeder should breed a carrier in the first place. They wouldn't dream of breeding a dog with PRA or hip dysplasia but we as a whole seem to have accepted EIC as the norm when we should be getting it out of the breed. IMO yes, they should be testing the puppies and should also have the carriers spayed or neutered and sell them for considerably less.


Its actually really important to keep carrier dogs in the breeding pool. The test hasn't been available for that long. If we eliminate all of the carrier dogs, the gene pool will be narrowed signficantly. Its really important to the breed to maintain varied genetics, and having a good genetic test allows the breeder to maintain genetic diversity while at the same time avoiding the disease. I think over time, EIC carriers will become less prevalent, similar to PRA. However, simply culling all of those dogs from breeding in one swoop may fix some other, less desirable genetic traits by narrowing the gene pool by a large portion.


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## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

Rainmaker said:


> Hahahahahahahaha, LMAO, haven't had a good ol' don't breed the EIC carriers trashtalk in a while. What's up next on the menu, silvers? British Labs? English Cream Goldens? Doodles?
> 
> Which betters the breed (oh how I hate that phrase): FC AFC with lots of AA points, OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, eyes, great temperament, not bad looking, both parents FC AFC and pedigree going back thru the ages. EIC carrier.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with your main point, and I have no bone in this, but that is terrible logic. I get tired of seeing these posts on the forum. They start with a condescending "hey look, I'm above this conversation" comment (which leads me to wonder why you entered in the first place?) and then goes to some sort of argument that everyone ought to know anyway but makes no sense.

What's "better for the breed?"
"FC AFC with lots of AA points, OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, eyes, great temperament, not bad looking, both parents FC AFC and pedigree going back thru the ages. EIC carrier."

Or 


FC AFC with lots of AA points, OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, eyes, great temperament, not bad looking, both parents "FC AFC and pedigree going back thru the ages. NON EIC carrier"

that's the real question. You've just created a false paradox...


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Granddaddy said:


> You're kidding right? You have equated an EIC carrier with dogs affected with PRA or hip dysplasia. Carriers are not affected & are just as healthy as EIC clear dogs. The primary reason for testing is to avoid affected dogs. And your equations are not even logical & scientifically accurate when it comes to hip dysplasia. There is no test to determine carriers of hip issues but we know conclusively that dogs with excellent hips have produced dysplastic dogs. In fact we don't even have conclusive evidence of how it is inherited (if it is). And what would you do with the other 25-39 recessive inherited traits that most every pure breed dog is considered by science to be carrying?
> 
> Let's just wipe the most prolific sire in the history of field Labs right off the map with that opinion along with a number of excellent sires & bitches who most would breed to every day.........


No, I'm not kidding. EIC is a genetic defect just like all the other ones out there. Fill in the blank. It's all the same principal. I'm aware that a carrier is not effected however it will still produce more carriers and that is not the best thing for the breed. And let's not forget that part of the reason that the gene pool is so small to start with is due to intense line breeding which I might add is thought by some to be the cause of EIC in the first place.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

EIC is a genetic defect. It's a defect that carriers do not have....only affected dogs have the defect. The goal is to never reproduce the defect, and responsible breeders, by virtue of the testing available, don't produce the defect. To eliminate all carriers would be extremely irresponsible. Not only would it narrow the gene pool and likely allow other genetic anomalies to present, but it would eliminate the potential "clears" from those bloodlines....clears that by your logic, should be bred.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

obsessed said:


> What are your thoughts ??
> Should a breeder test puppies for EIC when they know one parent is a carrier and one parent clear ?
> This would seem to help the buyer make a decision on which pup to buy if there is a choice in case they might want to breed in the future.


The original post sought thoughts. Here are mine:

I will take a market perspective. The buyer determines what he wants. If he wants testing on all pups he either negotiates for that or he limits his search to those litters offering it. 

Affected dogs should be the concern... Unless one seeks breeding stock. If one seeks breeding stock, his needs differ from the buyer seeking "health". For the buyer seeking a healthy pup, a carrier of EIC is no less healthy than an EIC clear. 

The Labrador puppy market has all sorts of litters and ads. Not all will serve the specific needs of all buyers. The more a litter or breeding offers in one desirable aspect (like NFC potential) the less it may serve of some other aspect (like optimum breeding stats...aka EIC clear, or coat color)

My answer is "no". It should not be a requirement for all. But if the buyer considers it a requirement, he is in control! Non-compliant litters are just removed from consideration. 

We can't always get what we want... But if we try sometimes, we just might find,


well, I hope most all of us know the rest. 

You get what you need. 

Respectfully, cda

Thanks to Mick,Keith, Charlie, Ron, Bill... For the closing


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> The original post sought thoughts. Here are mine:
> 
> I will take a market perspective. The buyer determines what he wants. If he wants testing on all pups he either negotiates for that or he limits his search to those litters offering it.
> 
> ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkGrkNu6mDg


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## Jill Chalmers (Mar 9, 2008)

I bred my clear girl to an EIC Carrier this year. I tested the litter and advertised that I would test the litter. I knew that all my puppies were going to competitive homes and future breedings with these pups was on the agenda (all other clearances passed of course). I also had requests for clear vs. carrier pups. In my opinion, as a breeder, you have no choice but to test the puppies.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Hahahahahahahaha, LMAO, haven't had a good ol' don't breed the EIC carriers trashtalk in a while. What's up next on the menu, silvers? British Labs? English Cream Goldens? Doodles?
> 
> Which betters the breed (oh how I hate that phrase): FC AFC with lots of AA points, OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, eyes, great temperament, not bad looking, both parents FC AFC and pedigree going back thru the ages. EIC carrier.
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges here, in your examples. The 2 sides will never agree. If a buyer wants a clear, for any reason, they should buy a clear pup. That is not a breeders choice, it's a buyers choice. Any breeder that has a litter from a known carrier has to know that some buyers are turned away from them because of EIC carrier status, not because of failed a test, color genes, etc. Just like silvers and doodles, this topic will never go away, sadly.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JJaxon said:


> Apples and oranges here, in your examples. The 2 sides will never agree. If a buyer wants a clear, for any reason, they should buy a clear pup. That is not a breeders choice, it's a buyers choice. Any breeder that has a litter from a known carrier has to know that some buyers are turned away from them because of EIC carrier status, not because of failed a test, color genes, etc. Just like silvers and doodles, this topic will never go away, sadly.


It was a mocking satire, those of you that took it seriously, whatever. The thread was about testing litters, not another useless debate about should EIC carriers even be bred. Some noob comes on here making a blanket statement about all carriers should be spayed/neutered, please, how terribly short-sighted and narrow-minded.

To answer the OP, I have EIC carriers, I breed to EIC carriers, I have no problem selling potential EIC carriers. I don't test and I don't sell carriers cheaper. Do "performance" homes tend to want clears because they want to breed down the road? Usually. All they have to do is go with a clear/clear litter that also fits their other needs, or pay for EIC testing for the pups they're interested in. Of my current 3 litters on the ground, 2 have EIC carrier parents. The majority of the pups were spoken for before they hit the ground, 2 are going to repeat HT homes that don't care if they might be carriers, a 3rd does want clear and is paying to test to get it, despite there being a clear to clear litter they could have gone with instead. It doesn't have to be any bigger deal than that.

In the 2012 season to current, dogs I've bred and/or handled have earned 70+ HT ribbons including MH/HRCH, several BDC titles, one finished his FC/AFC and is competing at the National Am, many are fine hunters and family companions. None have suffered from EIC or CNM since the tests became available, anything else to do with EIC or CNM is meaningless, to me. 

When people obsess on something so easily bred around, whose removal really would shrink the gene pool, makes me wonder what they consider "improving the breed".


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Kim,

Excellent post. DNA testing has opened up so many opportunities. 

Sue Puff


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

OP, yes they (breeder) should test if they want to know what status a pup is before it is sold to any home. Know that most do care, but some don't care if a carrier is sold to a buyer that has no knowledge of EIC breedings. Many buyers plan to breed someday, thinking they can recover costs associated with great bloodlines, training, testing, etc. Yes, if the buyer that wants to know the status, should require a test result before buying a pup, if the goal is a clear pup, demand nothing less.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JJaxon said:


> OP, yes they (breeder) should test if they want to know what status a pup is before it is sold to any home. Know that most do care, but some don't care if a carrier is sold to a buyer that has no knowledge of EIC breedings. Many buyers plan to breed someday, thinking they can recover costs associated with great bloodlines, training, testing, etc. Yes, if the buyer that wants to know the status, should require a test result before buying a pup, if the goal is a clear pup, demand nothing less.


On the contrary, most of my buyers do not plan to breed and if someone says they are going to breed to "recover" their puppy cost, well, that opens up a whole 'nother discussion. Every one of my dog's clearances are listed clearly on my site, CNM and EIC and hips, elbows, eyes, are discussed with potential buyers, as well as a host of other things. Talking to puppy buyers is a large part of my time, before and after the sale.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> On the contrary, most of my buyers do not plan to breed and if someone says they are going to breed to "recover" their puppy cost, well, that opens up a whole 'nother discussion. Every one of my dog's clearances are listed clearly on my site, CNM and EIC and hips, elbows, eyes, are discussed with potential buyers, as well as a host of other things. Talking to puppy buyers is a large part of my time, before and after the sale.


Well that puts you in the "most do care" category. But when someone lists EIC status in bold caps as not affected, to me that sounds like they are trying to convince someone of something. Why not put what the certificate reads, Clear, Carrier or Affected. Do OFA certificates come saying not affected? Well, now I'm confused. But I think that is why. I know my certificates say clear, and I planned it that way.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JJaxon said:


> Well that puts you in the "most do care" category. But when someone lists EIC status in bold caps as not affected, to me that sounds like they are trying to convince someone of something. Why not put what the certificate reads, Clear, Carrier or Affected. Do OFA certificates come saying not affected? Well, now I'm confused. But I think that is why. I know my certificates say clear, and I planned it that way.


Not everyone puts their EIC results on OFA. The OFA number has CAR in it if EIC carrier, says clear, carrier or affected on the OFA site. As far as how people list it, if they are saying not affected, I take it to mean just that. Potential for carrier but not affected, just another way of saying it simply, to make it clear to those who don't understand the genetics. Some think carrier means affected or something, can't tell you how many times I explain that to people. Saying non-affected is easier for some to understand.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

There are many back-yard breeders who do not care what they breed or what they sell to unknowing people. and they breed a lot more puppies than the performance people I know. I agree with Rainmaker that many performance people do not buy with the intention of breeding. Some performance people want "clear" pups and for some, it doesn't matter if clear or carrier. Many puppy buyers aren't concerned and do not even ask about potential issues with the sire/dam--like eye folds and no CERF, or pedigrees where sire/dam have blown cruciates at a young age, or no OFA elbows on dogs with known heritage of issues, or terrible skin problems, etc., etc--issues that can be career-ending for a performance dog. Personally, we don't worry about genetic issues we can test for and control in the puppies we buy. At this time, we own 9 dogs. We have one female that is clear for EIC/CNM and one male that is clear for EIC/CNM and one FC AFC is that EIC affected. The rest are EIC carriers, and I think all are clear for CNM. I understand that people who want to breed are looking for clear so they can sell the pups more easily and don't have to deal with explaining carriers to potential buyers.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

j towne said:


> Breeders can test for whatever they want. If a puppy buyer wants a pup you play by the breeders rules. If you dont like what the breeder is doing then go somewhere else.


Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!!!


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Tony Marshall said:


> No, I'm not kidding. EIC is a genetic defect just like all the other ones out there. Fill in the blank. It's all the same principal. I'm aware that a carrier is not effected however it will still produce more carriers and that is not the best thing for the breed. And let's not forget that part of the reason that the gene pool is so small to start with is due to intense line breeding which I might add is thought by some to be the cause of EIC in the first place.


You do realize you will never create the perfect "health" dog, try to eliminate one factor and another one crops up!!! But you can try.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

HiRollerlabs said:


> There are many back-yard breeders who do not care what they breed or what they sell to unknowing people. and they breed a lot more puppies than the performance people I know. I agree with Rainmaker that many performance people do not buy with the intention of breeding. Some performance people want "clear" pups and for some, it doesn't matter if clear or carrier. Many puppy buyers aren't concerned and do not even ask about potential issues with the sire/dam--like eye folds and no CERF, or pedigrees where sire/dam have blown cruciates at a young age, or no OFA elbows on dogs with known heritage of issues, or terrible skin problems, etc., etc--issues that can be career-ending for a performance dog. Personally, we don't worry about genetic issues we can test for and control in the puppies we buy. At this time, we own 9 dogs. We have one female that is clear for EIC/CNM and one male that is clear for EIC/CNM and one FC AFC is that EIC affected. The rest are EIC carriers, and I think all are clear for CNM. I understand that people who want to breed are looking for clear so they can sell the pups more easily and don't have to deal with explaining carriers to potential buyers.


Exactly. Very well put.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Tony Marshall said:


> No, I'm not kidding. *EIC is a genetic defect *just like all the other ones out there. Fill in the blank. It's all the same principal. I'm aware that a carrier is not effected however it will still produce more carriers and that is not the best thing for the breed. And let's not forget that part of the reason that the gene pool is so small to start with is due to intense line breeding which I might add is thought by some to be the cause of EIC in the first place.


EIC affected dogs express a recessive trait - they are affected. EIC carriers & EIC clear dogs do not express a recessive trait with carriers being just as healthy & without defect as clear dogs when considering EIC - you seem not to distinguish the dfference but the primary reason to test is to know & confirm the distinction. And your earlier example of dyplasia is even further afield because we don't know how dyplasia is inherited or even if it is. An EIC carrier status is not like dyplasia because we can test for EIC and avoid producing EIC-affected dogs. We cannot test for dysplasia and avoid dyplastic dogs, instead we can only distinguish after the fact by xrays. Through the OFA & PennHip programs we do make an attempt to avoid dysplasia by identifying dysplastic dogs & avoiding them as breeding stock but at present we are only guessing about the inheritability.Using your logic we should never breed another dog because science tells us every pure-bred dog of every breed carries 25-39 recessive traits. And these are traits for which we have no testing - micro papilla, cleft palate, dwarfism, hemophilia, narcolepsy, epilepsy, over/under bite, poor coat, allergies, curly tail, certain cancers, cataracts, etc, etc - in studying the canine genome, scientists estimate over 1000 genetic diseases are carried among dogs in general "... A detailed listing of over 1000 canine diseases, and descriptions of each, appears in the database of inherited diseases in dogs (IDID, http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid) (Sargan 2004)...." see link http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full. 

So you would avoid EIC-carrier dogs as some kind of defect yet continue to breed with the unknowns - it seems very inconsistent.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Not everyone puts their EIC results on OFA. The OFA number has CAR in it if EIC carrier, says clear, carrier or affected on the OFA site. As far as how people list it, if they are saying not affected, I take it to mean just that. Potential for carrier but not affected, just another way of saying it simply, to make it clear to those who don't understand the genetics. Some think carrier means affected or something, can't tell you how many times I explain that to people. Saying non-affected is easier for some to understand.


That is side stepping, the fact that a carrier placed in the wrong breeding can produce affected is real. Obviously no one would list them as potential affected offspring, but to most un knowing buyers, or shoppers, saying non affected only clouds the true meaning of a test result for them. You probably bring it up in a conversation before they do, iI'd guess, because they don't know to ask in the first place.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Nope No paying for puppy EIC testing, I will not label a pup as inferior before it's even seen a bird. As a breeder I'm obligated to produce the healthiest pups I can, with the best potential to succeed in whatever venues future owners, may want to put them in. Sometimes the best, just might be represented in a carrier parent. It's not my job to make the breeding of those puppies easier, for lazy people who don't want to test, or consider it too hard to breed a around one little gene. When concern about breeding around a testable gene becomes more important than what a dog actually is and can do. I begin thinking the buyers have their priorities in the wrong place, Just how many times are they planning on breeding this pup? How much consideration are they going to be putting into matching them to produce better stock? One little gene being too much to research, doesn't give me much credence to what might be produced, later on. Sorry my lines and what they produce are important to me. If clear vs. Carrier on one gene is a stopping point; Go buy a dog from someone else.

I have a pup right now out of a Carrier-Clear Breeding, I have no Idea what she is, I won't be testing her for EIC until after she's proven that she's worthy of breeding, MH MHR HRCH QAA etc. Then Hips/Elbows will have to clear, if she passes all that and comes back carrier, well we'll match around that. Still she got 2-3 years of showing me something first.

As for the EIC carrier stud argument, "Oh I won't be able to find matches." The Truth is a Superior dog will be bred (Whether Clear, Carrier, particular dogs even Affected). If EIC carrier male is a stopping point, maybe the dog just isn't Superior. If the concern is "Oh I won't be able to make $$$ on a mass amount of breedings" Well we have very different Ideas about the purpose behind breeding dogs. One could ask where did EIC-CNM-PRA come from in the First place?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Nope No paying for puppy EIC testing, I will not label a pup as inferior before it's even seen a bird. As a breeder I'm obligated to produce the healthiest pups I can, with the best potential to succeed in whatever venues future owners, may want to put them in. Sometimes the best, just might be represented in a carrier parent. It's not my job to make the breeding of those puppies easier, for lazy people who don't want to test, or consider it too hard to breed a around one little gene. When concern about breeding around a testable gene becomes more important than what a dog actually is and can do. I begin thinking the buyers have their priorities in the wrong place, Just how many times are they planning on breeding this pup? How much consideration are they going to be putting into matching them to produce better stock? One little gene being too much to research, doesn't give me much credence to what might be produced, later on. Sorry my lines and what they produce are important to me. If clear vs. Carrier on one gene is a stopping point; Go buy a dog from someone else.
> 
> I have a pup right now out of a Carrier-Clear Breeding, I have no Idea what she is, I won't be testing her for EIC until after she's proven that she's worthy of breeding, MH MHR HRCH QAA etc. Then Hips/Elbows will have to clear, if she passes all that and comes back carrier, well we'll match around that. Still she got 2-3 years of showing me something first.


Amen. I just sent out a litter of pups out of a mom who is a PRA carrier. Sire of course is clear. One potential breeder did want me to do the PRA testing initially, but I explained the logistics of that wasn't THAT doable. What if that "Clear" pup ended up failing CERF or her well check at 8 wks? The gal got my personal pick of the litter in the end. She should have no problem finding a nice Clear male if the time comes.

I remember an agility competitor who wanted me to not remove the dew claws on "her" female too. How would I know at 2-3 days which puppy the agility dog may be? If Clear is a priority, I sure hope you are quizzing your breeders about *everything* else back there in the pedigree. Allergies, hearts, neurological disorders, cruciate issues, etc all likely have genetic bases to some degree. Yep, good luck to those who think their are 100% Clear dogs out there.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JJaxon said:


> That is side stepping, the fact that a carrier placed in the wrong breeding can produce affected is real. Obviously no one would list them as potential affected offspring, but to most un knowing buyers, or shoppers, saying non affected only clouds the true meaning of a test result for them. You probably bring it up in a conversation before they do, iI'd guess, because they don't know to ask in the first place.


I cannot control who or what anyone breeds to down the road. No one can. All we can do is educate. There is personal accountability involved for anyone that breeds. Why is it my responsibility to make sure no one gets a carrier to breed, by testing the litter? It was okay for me to breed a carrier from which they are buying a puppy but then I tell them that they shouldn't buy one of the carrier puppies if they intend to breed? Huh? I feel I've done my part by doing hips/elbows/eyes and ensuring one parent at least is clear of EIC or CNM so there are no affected puppies. Anyone who buys a pup with the intent to breed has that exact same responsibility. If they don't do it, it's on them, not me, they knew what they were getting in all respects when it comes to health clearances, in writing. Should I also keep the pups until they are old enough to OFA hips and elbows to make sure those get placed appropriately?

You think you got all your bases covered because you bred EIC clear to EIC clear in your first litter you got now? If you're selling on Full Registration, you're sending all those puppies out to people over which you have zero control. Even if their pup is clear/clear, they can still fail OFA or CERF or have some other issue like severe allergies or blow both cruciates before they're two or have aggression issues and they can still breed. Or they can pass all tests, breed responsibly, to an EIC or CNM carrier they like, sell those puppies and whammo, right back to carrier pups being sold and they're your "grandpups". How far and how long are you going to hold yourself responsible for those puppies you're selling and what they produce down the road?

There is only so much hand-holding one can do. EVERY breeder owes it to themselves, their buyers and their dogs to be educated before they breed, for whatever issues involve their breed. If they are not educated enough to understand the genetics of EIC or CNM or PRA when they are buying a puppy, if they are confused by someone saying "non-affected", then they shouldn't be breeding. If a breeder finds it too much work or trouble or worry to educate their buyers about it, then by all means, they should not be burdening themselves with carriers. But eliminating or identifying carriers just because people might not do a genetic test themselves before they breed and we need to protect them from making a mistake is a bit much, IMO.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

obsessed said:


> What are your thoughts ??
> Should a breeder test puppies for EIC when they know one parent is a carrier and one parent clear ?
> This would seem to help the buyer make a decision on which pup to buy if there is a choice in case they might want to breed in the future.


Yes, If the breeder doesn't want to rule out certain buyers that would want a clear pup. It would also make a great selling tool that you would go the extra mile, or $69 if you will, to check for EIC. If they have enough sales base that it is not required for them to do so then, no. It is a simple business fact of supply and demand. I personally wouldn't buy if the test wasn't done. But, That is me and my preferences and no ill will to anyone. That's just how I am.


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## coachmo (Apr 23, 2009)

Man, it's a good thing we don't cull humans based on potentially poor recessive traits!!!!! Seriously, don't most people select a breeding they are interested in and pick a pup based on parent's performance, pedigree, previous production and health clearances as a whole versus solely EIC and/or CNM?


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

j towne said:


> Breeders can test for whatever they want. If a puppy buyer wants a pup you play by the breeders rules. If you dont like what the breeder is doing then go somewhere else.


Pretty simple huh?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Jill Chalmers said:


> I bred my clear girl to an EIC Carrier this year. I tested the litter and advertised that I would test the litter. I knew that all my puppies were going to competitive homes and future breedings with these pups was on the agenda (all other clearances passed of course). I also had requests for clear vs. carrier pups. In my opinion, as a breeder, you have no choice but to test the puppies.


Tangent; If I have Pick 1 on Female pups and I do not care whether it's clear or carrier, I don't even want to know. I also will not pick until they are 7wks old, and have interacted with all of them. Someone else cares so you put them down as pick of the clears. Test results come back and there is only one clear. How is this dealt with? Do you let the person who doesn't care have a go at all the pups, then let Pick #1 clear have the clear only if it isn't picked. Or do you give the person #1 pick clear the clear pup, because the other doesn't care. Seems like a lot of entanglement there.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> I cannot control who or what anyone breeds to down the road. No one can. All we can do is educate. There is personal accountability involved for anyone that breeds. Why is it my responsibility to make sure no one gets a carrier to breed, by testing the litter? It was okay for me to breed a carrier from which they are buying a puppy but then I tell them that they shouldn't buy one of the carrier puppies if they intend to breed? Huh? I feel I've done my part by doing hips/elbows/eyes and ensuring one parent at least is clear of EIC or CNM so there are no affected puppies. Anyone who buys a pup with the intent to breed has that exact same responsibility. If they don't do it, it's on them, not me, they knew what they were getting in all respects when it comes to health clearances, in writing. Should I also keep the pups until they are old enough to OFA hips and elbows to make sure those get placed appropriately?
> 
> You think you got all your bases covered because you bred EIC clear to EIC clear in your first litter you got now? If you're selling on Full Registration, you're sending all those puppies out to people over which you have zero control. Even if their pup is clear/clear, they can still fail OFA or CERF or have some other issue like severe allergies or blow both cruciates before they're two or have aggression issues and they can still breed. Or they can pass all tests, breed responsibly, to an EIC or CNM carrier they like, sell those puppies and whammo, right back to carrier pups being sold and they're your "grandpups". How far and how long are you going to hold yourself responsible for those puppies you're selling and what they produce down the road?
> 
> There is only so much hand-holding one can do. EVERY breeder owes it to themselves, their buyers and their dogs to be educated before they breed, for whatever issues involve their breed. If they are not educated enough to understand the genetics of EIC or CNM or PRA when they are buying a puppy, if they are confused by someone saying "non-affected", then they shouldn't be breeding. If a breeder finds it too much work or trouble or worry to educate their buyers about it, then by all means, they should not be burdening themselves with carriers. But eliminating or identifying carriers just because people might not do a genetic test themselves before they breed and we need to protect them from making a mistake is a bit much, IMO.


Where's that "Like" button? 

I'll let the government, leftists, and Politically Correct, donkey butts coddle the masses. Otherwise, if we were in the business of selling future brood bitches and stud dogs, then we had better keep them until they were 2 yrs old and passing every test known to man, including a complete physical and reproductive exam and semen count. 

This whole progressive mindset of "do it for me so I don't have to" crap has got to change. If you can post on a forum, then you can look up and read about the recommended testing that needs done. If you can't afford to do it yourself, then you certainly can't afford to whelp a litter. If you don't have the time or want to spend the effort, don't breed. If you found the information and don't understand it and are too lazy or cannot comprehend it, you have no business breeding dogs- breed rabbits, goats, or chickens instead- you can eat your failures as well as your successes that way. 

P.S. I am also not responsible for my own children's choices in mates, housing, career choices, etc... once they leave and are on their own.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm not accomplished in any area of the dog games. Unless you hunt with me, but I do know a little about horses. The best tbred sire in the last 15 years was a crypto. 50 years ago he wouldn't have been bred. Get over the I would never breed a carrier. Heck I'd breed the right affected to a clear and be damned proud of the puppies.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Tangent; If I have Pick 1 on Female pups and I do not care whether it's clear or carrier, I don't even want to know. I also will not pick until they are 7wks old, and have interacted with all of them. Someone else cares so you put them down as pick of the clears. Test results come back and there is only one clear. How is this dealt with? Do you let the person who doesn't care have a go at all the pups, then let Pick #1 clear have the clear only if it isn't picked. Or do you give the person #1 pick clear the clear pup, because the other doesn't care. Seems like a lot of entanglement there.



I had this happen to me with a litter. I didn't care which pup in the litter I got- Just wanted a female. Didn't matter what color, size, coat or tail or ear length, or EIC status (only options were clear or carrier or course). I had the breeder choose my pup from the IMPORTANT criteria- and I gave him a very detailed description of the type of dog that I was looking for performance and temperament wise. After someone stated that they wanted a clear only, he called me to make sure that it was all right if my pup was not only a Yellow! but also a carrier for EIC. I reminded him that I didn't care if she was purple as long as she wasn't affected, blind, or stupid. Turns out, I got his favorite and the one that he would have kept for himself.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Tangent; If I have Pick 1 on Female pups and I do not care whether it's clear or carrier, I don't even want to know. I also will not pick until they are 7wks old, and have interacted with all of them. Someone else cares so you put them down as pick of the clears. Test results come back and there is only one clear. How is this dealt with? Do you let the person who doesn't care have a go at all the pups, then let Pick #1 clear have the clear only if it isn't picked. Or do you give the person #1 pick clear the clear pup, because the other doesn't care. Seems like a lot of entanglement there.


Here's the deal...the breeder is the owner of the pups until they are sold, no ifs, ands or buts. The breeder sets the criteria for sale, the market determines if the criteria is reasonable. Even so, the breeder still is the one who may or may not modify his sale criteria in order to sell the pups. It is my view, as a very occasional breeder, who breeds primarily to attempt to get the good qualities of the bitch I own & to shore up the weak spots to produce a pup or two that I want to train & carry forward in the field trial game (hunting too as a side line) & as a pet. I sell the pups I don't keep. In past litters I have allowed others to have a first pick (I don't put a quantitative amount of faith in testing pups at 6-8 wks old). I do the testing but the tests usually don't reveal much I didn't already see in the pups, having cared for & observed them for 8 wks. A 1st pick buyer can view the pups, do temperament testing, have any medical tests (within reason) they want done (at their expense) provided they have paid a deposit & pickup a pup at 8 wks old, paying the balance due then. If a buyer isn't comfortable with that process, my pups probably aren't worth further consideration.

When I purchased Stella there were only two pups left to choose from. I chose Stella who was the first to win an AA event out of the litter, first to title & a national finalist (qualifying for 3 nationals). My other choice turned out to be the national derby champion, EIC-clear Pink. They were the last two left from that litter that included Juice, Freeway & Karma. Sometimes the 1st pick isn't the best pick (or the 2nd or 3rd) but when you get a pup from exceptional breeding, the chances are increased that your pups will turn out OK.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

No. The breeders "Shouldn't". It's entirely up to them. As a prospective puppy buyer, do your work. Dang. If they want to test, fine. If not, that's their business. They don't have to.


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## Jill Chalmers (Mar 9, 2008)

Actually it was very simple. Only one person HAD to have a clear. Everyone else would take either. Everyone knew what they were getting into as I was VERY upfront about everything. Buyers knew who had what pick and also knew they were going to have to wait for results. They were on the list knowing how this was going to work. Dewclaws were removed PDQ and I had results back in two weeks. As it turned out, the one person who had to have the Clear didn't get it because she was second pick and my first pick person went went for the clear male.

I did the testing because I wanted people to know what they were getting and I wanted to know what I had. It wasn't a big deal.

I think it becomes a big deal if you don't tell your buyers how long it will take and who has what pick. In addition, with the exception of one pup that was purchased locally, I was pretty much going to have to do the choosing for the owners anyway.

I thought about not testing the litter but chose to in the end. My call and my decision. It only becomes messy if you let it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Hypothetical question:

Let's say I have a litter of five, 2M, 3F. Buyer with first pick male insists on EIC clear. I test the entire litter, one male is clear, the other is a carrier, so clear buyer has a pup, deposit paid. However, let's say the clear male is the runt of the litter, or is the shy one, or perhaps has a very curly tail (for example..pick whatever visual, non-performance affecting defect you want), which buyer doesn't like/want once they see the pups. Carrier male has already gone to its new home. Where do you draw the line?

For me, the smart move is to not worry so much about things we can control, like EIC, and focus on the hard stuff that we can't predict.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Amen Sharon


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

rbr said:


> Pretty simple huh?


what do you mean Bert?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I'm curious if the OP is worried at all about PRA. That's a $200 per puppy test if you don't luck out and get in on a 20/20 discount offer when you need to do it. I just had my first choc from 5 generations FINALLY come back clear for PRA (and Excellent hips, normal elbows, normal heart, annual CERF since 7 wks). Of course I "Yahooo'd!" when the results came in. Now, I could have tested my prior litters and spent god only knows how much $$$ to find a clear, but instead I chose my pups w/ blinders to the carrier status. Good grief, I just don't understand someone who would choose as Sharon outlined above, but they ARE out there. I want to know that structure is balanced, hocks feel strong, attitude for birds and other challenges is "there", etc.. There is normally a clear winner for me in every litter when it comes down to it, and I just don't give a rip at this point if EIC or PRA carrier status is at risk at that point. Sure, it's nice when it's not but not everything in life is perfect. People new to the concept of breeding need to get over the fact that they think they are entitled to "perfection" right out of the gate.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Sharon Potter said:


> Hypothetical question:
> 
> Let's say I have a litter of five, 2M, 3F. Buyer with first pick male insists on EIC clear. I test the entire litter, one male is clear, the other is a carrier, so clear buyer has a pup, deposit paid. However, let's say the clear male is the runt of the litter, or is the shy one, or perhaps has a very curly tail (for example..pick whatever visual, non-performance affecting defect you want), which buyer doesn't like/want once they see the pups. Carrier male has already gone to its new home. Where do you draw the line?
> 
> For me, the smart move is to not worry so much about things we can control, like EIC, and focus on the hard stuff that we can't predict.


Wow, guy who has 1st pick has EIC as his sole criteria until he sees the pup.......I guess at that point I'd say to the 1st pick guy either it's too late to change your criteria or if it's not - here are the other pups, which one do you want.

Well, I've already stated the pups are owned by the breeder until the breeder says to the buyer OK, the pup is yours. My question about your example is about what 1st pick means given the other male had already gone to someone else. I guess I just don't want to sell pups bad enough to allow buyers such latitude..."do you want the pup or not...no?, thanks I'll find another buyer." I'd be nice about it though......


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

coachmo said:


> Man, it's a good thing we don't cull humans based on potentially poor recessive traits!!!!! Seriously, don't most people select a breeding they are interested in and pick a pup based on parent's performance, pedigree, previous production and health clearances as a whole versus solely EIC and/or CNM?


Well, we do that on our own, kinda. Dogs and some people will screw anything...


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

obsessed said:


> Should a breeder test puppies for EIC when they know one parent is a carrier and one parent clear ?


The short answer is no they shouldn't. 

When a litter is only 7 or 8 weeks old you really don't know if there is something worth breeding in it or not and you won't know yet for another year or two. It is the breeders responsibility to not produce an affected dog or puppy, not to produce a genetically perfect dog (which isn't possible by the way). 


It seems as though a new genetic test comes along about every 18 months or so. Within a decade or so, it will become next to impossible to find a dog that clears everything. People are going to have to start picking and choosing which faults they want to work with and which ones they want to avoid all together. A perfect genetically engineered dog doesn't exist. Pick your battles where there are tools to help you succeed.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

For those of you who breed more than one litter a year and sell most/all of the pups, what is your plan for "improving the breed"? Do you review information about the first and second generations in the pedigree to determine how many dogs in these litters had problems (hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, eyes that won't CERF at 8 weeks, blown cruciates at a young age, etc. etc. ) Improving the breed isn't done in just one litter (IMO), it is a series of breedings, a progression over time--taking the what you perceive as the "best" pup from a litter and improving with the next litter, and the next, and so on--taking into consideration the things that make a good retriever such as desire, trainability, structural soundness, intelligence, exceptional eyesight to see those 500+ yard marks, good coat, ...... What "issues" have you worked on over the years to improve your "breeding program"? For example, were you able to take a dog with an issue or two (what were the issue(s)?) and improve the breed?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

HiRollerlabs said:


> For those of you who breed more than one litter a year and sell most/all of the pups, what is your plan for "improving the breed"? Do you review information about the first and second generations in the pedigree to determine how many dogs in these litters had problems (hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, eyes that won't CERF at 8 weeks, blown cruciates at a young age, etc. etc. ) Improving the breed isn't done in just one litter (IMO), it is a series of breedings, a progression over time--taking the what you perceive as the "best" pup from a litter and improving with the next litter, and the next, and so on--taking into consideration the things that make a good retriever such as desire, trainability, structural soundness, intelligence, exceptional eyesight to see those 500+ yard marks, good coat, ...... What "issues" have you worked on over the years to improve your "breeding program"? For example, were you able to take a dog with an issue or two (what were the issue(s)?) and improve the breed?


Ann, unfortunately most folks breed for the simple reason that they can....for every breeder actually attempting to sustain or improve the breed over several generations there are 100s who just want to.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

You don't "improve the breed", there is nothing wrong with the breed. You strive to improve on YOUR line of dogs within the breed, trying with each successive breeding, to reach that ever illusive "perfect dog" - which should be the dog described in the breed standard- if one were truly trying to "improve the breed". What ever your goals, one should realize that it is a continually ongoing process, sometimes it seems like the old "two steps forward, one step back" when trying to fix or improve on certain qualities, you end up worsening others. It's a game of chance, since we are not in a laboratory tweaking genes nor are we God. It is a long, stepping stone process that often requires many generations, and a lot of it depends on the quality of the bitch that you started with, as well as your "end game". For those strictly wanting performance and don't want to worry about the looks, their goal is easier (although plenty difficult!!!) since they are only interested in part of the equation. The same would go for those breeding specifically for the show ring. That's my opinion, take it for what it's worth. Have a great Friday!!!


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Firehouselabs--so what have you strived to improve in your "line", have you been able to overcome things you wanted to improve, and what level of success have your pups achieved--MH, HRCH, GMHR, FC/AFC? What are you looking to improve now, and knowing that this is a progression over time, how many generations of dogs are in your line--how far back--Great Grandparents, Great Great?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Bob/Ann Heise, I have just started on the journey and have a long way to go! I'll let you know in 40 yrs or so as to what all I have accomplished toward my goals  Right now, I have taken a huge hit in the grand scheme of my breeding program with a move and pending divorce which is putting a huge damper on things. But, in the mean time, I'll be putting a lot of breedings on paper and observing what seem to be working performance and confirmation wise, and God willing sometime soon I will apply that knowledge back into my program and goals. As far as accomplishments go, so far, I have had some really nice pups that went to some really nice people- just not the professional homes that I had hoped for. Those that have gone on to hunt test careers, have done very well- I started and sold several pups from various litters that were at the HRC Seasoned level before the age of 18 months and had the potential for much more. So I am progressing in the forward direction!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

firehouselabs said:


> Bob/Ann Heise, I have just started on the journey and have a long way to go! I'll let you know in 40 yrs or so as to what all I have accomplished toward my goals  Right now, I have taken a huge hit in the grand scheme of my breeding program with a move and pending divorce which is putting a huge damper on things. But, in the mean time, I'll be putting a lot of breedings on paper and observing what seem to be working performance and confirmation wise, and God willing sometime soon I will apply that knowledge back into my program and goals. As far as accomplishments go, so far, I have had some really nice pups that went to some really nice people- just not the professional homes that I had hoped for. Those that have gone on to hunt test careers, have done very well- I started and sold several pups from various litters that were at the HRC Seasoned level before the age of 18 months and had the potential for much more. So I am progressing in the forward direction!


Sorry to hear that Raina. That was me in '98 and I'm still single -- but I'm much happier now than I was then for sure! It will change your priorities, but at least you can go where you want to go. 

Breeding is an Scart. (Science + art). I don't think anyone who has competed and also bred for any length of time could argue w/ that. I agree w/ you Raina, it's a 2 forward, 1 back at times. It's not a short term thing at all and if anyone thinks it is, they've got some surprises (probably disappointments) coming. 

The great thing about Labs is that if you aren't going to please one audience, there is very likely another out there just waiting!


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

I personally think you should not breed a carrier dog unless it is from a line that should really be continued. If we do not reduce the number of carrier dog out there we will be in trouble in the long hall. If you do have a carrier litter make sure they get clear dog if any possibility of breeding in future. Carrier dogs go to none breeders. why continue testing for this. it is expensive. thank you University of Minnesota for getting a test for us. lets get this out of our breeding.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

pheona said:


> I personally think you should not breed a carrier dog unless it is from a line that should really be continued.


Doesn't that go for breeding in general? Only breed dogs that are from a line that should be continued?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

pheona said:


> I personally think you should not breed a carrier dog unless it is from a line that should really be continued. If we do not reduce the number of carrier dog out there we will be in trouble in the long hall. If you do have a carrier litter make sure they get clear dog if any possibility of breeding in future. Carrier dogs go to none breeders. why continue testing for this. it is expensive. thank you University of Minnesota for getting a test for us. lets get this out of our breeding.


Good grief, have we returned to the Neanderthal mentality that an EIC carrier is worthless? Where do these people come from?


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

EdA said:


> Good grief, have we returned to the Neanderthal mentality that an EIC carrier is worthless? Where do these people come from?


Apparently responsible breeding may end up in the hands of irresponsible breeding therefore the responsible are irresponsible.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

OMG....our genetic bottleneck is going to get worse. Can you imagine how many carriers of anything we'd eliminate??? There is a REASON for testing. It's to eliminate producing AFFECTEDs. If we get rid of every carrier of anything....we're not going to have a breed!

Sue Puff


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

People just don't get it. I have a carrier (EIC) female, I bred to an EIC clear male, I have a male pup from that litter
that is EIC CLEAR. There was also one other male I tested that was CLEAR. So, it seems you can keep the qualities of those EIC carriers, and breed them into clears thru testing and breeding in the right combinations and eliminate the EIC from the
bloodline. There are a lot of people out there that have never heard of EIC or CNM, that is the biggest problem.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

My dog happens to be perfect. He has an unusual and (I happen to think) valuable--at least, unusual and noteworthy--pedigree. He carries EIC. 

The perfect bitch would be someone else's perfect dog with traits and a pedigree that complement his, and she would be EIC clear. So far, no takers. 

There are apparently dogs that are more perfect than mine! I can accept that.

But that doesn't mean that if the right gal came along, it would be a mistake to breed him. In fact, it would be an opportunity.

People really ought to pay more attention in tenth grade.


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## emers (Jul 17, 2013)

Health Tests !! have all my Kennel Clear DNA genetically for CPRA,CNM and EIC i also have eye tests yearly,was very happy to have all the clearences know i am receiving literature from the DNA testing companies informing me of new tests for my Labradors namely Dwarfism and also test for a type of Nasal disease,these companies rely on these tests to make MONEY ! within a few years we have our dogs genetically clear by parentage so we no longer need to test, so the companies need to find another test ! when will it ever STOP !!! ???


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

No, because mutations always occur. I have a dog now that is 2 generations clear by parentage for PRA. He is getting tested to make sure. We can't stop mutations. It's nature. It's not perfect. Never will be. If you want perfect, a pet rock is the way to go. 

Sue Puff


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## kelrobin (Aug 12, 2013)

suepuff said:


> If you want perfect, a pet rock is the way to go.


Or one of these


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

EdA said:


> Good grief, have we returned to the Neanderthal mentality that an EIC carrier is worthless? Where do these people come from?


too bad you cant test for this

/paul


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow at this post. Tell that to dogs like Ali. I own an Eic carrier and wouldn't trade him for anything in the world. He will probably be the best dog I ever own. Get out of here with that nonsense. By the way he is out of an affected bitch.When and if they repeat it I'll have another. I hate to sound rude but your credibility is now gone forever.


Tony Marshall said:


> IMO a person that is breeding should only be doing so to better the breed. With that being said, I really don't believe that a responsible breeder should breed a carrier in the first place. They wouldn't dream of breeding a dog with PRA or hip dysplasia but we as a whole seem to have accepted EIC as the norm when we should be getting it out of the breed. IMO yes, they should be testing the puppies and should also have the carriers spayed or neutered and sell them for considerably less.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I think the biggest problem is that it has gotten to the point that people buying a dog to potentially breed down the road are only looking at one thing, EIC. If its not a clear dog they stay away, it has to be clear etc. Often times the carriers are the players, but they aren't clear so they go to someone not really looking to breed. So you wind up with mostly clears being bred even if they bring less to the table than carrier littermates. The test is great but this thing can go backwards in a hurry with the mentality most people have towards it. The best dogs are not always the ones getting bred. I want nice dogs that can mark and think, clear or carrier. I select a litter and go from there. With that said if I don't see a dimes worth of difference in a litter I'm getting a clear more than likely if it is known, especially if buying a female. Waiting on the call that a particular repeat (All carrier) breeding that I really like is happening again regards. You've got to see the forrest through the trees folks.


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## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

Exactly!! Even if all clears were bred now, that isn't going to stop the mutation from happening again. Genetics are exactly that GENETICS and mutations happen all the time. If it were as easy as breeding clear to clear for everything, and everything was perfect wouldn't that be nice.



kelrobin said:


> Or one of these


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