# Prices for finished (HRCH) females with all health clearances?



## jax (May 18, 2010)

Curious what the price range is on an HRCH titled female that has all health clearances done and is just 3 years old? Just wondering what a fair price is for one. Thanks.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Check out the classifieds. You won't find actual prices agreed upon, but can get a good sense of value. Also check EE and gundog broker maybe.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

Im just throwing a number at the wall but probably $4000 range


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

There's one in started right now !


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

i_willie12 said:


> Im just throwing a number at the wall but probably $4000 range


I would consider $4k a steal for an HRCH female with clearances at 3 years old. 

If I were selling such an animal I would aim in the $6000-$8000 range if she was completely healthy.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

i_willie12 said:


> Im just throwing a number at the wall but probably $4000 range


More then that if the dog is well socialized and doesn't have any behavor issues. Sometimes that is the kicker.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Intact? Pedigree?


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## hawker (Jul 3, 2012)

A friend of mine sold a 2 year old female with one finished pass for $6000.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

ks_hunting said:


> I would consider $4k a steal for an HRCH female with clearances at 3 years old.
> 
> If I were selling such an animal I would aim in the $6000-$8000 range if she was completely healthy.



Asking and what you get are 2 different stories!!!! Not many people out there willing to spend $6-9K on a dog!! Its just like a hot rod! You arent going to get out of it what you want... Be lucky to break even, get you money back on your parts...


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

i_willie12 said:


> Asking and what you get are 2 different stories!!!! Not many people out there willing to spend $6-9K on a dog!! Its just like a hot rod! You arent going to get out of it what you want... Be lucky to break even, get you money back on your parts...


 Where can I buy good parts?


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree with Willie. A lot of people are asking $6K-$8K but buyers are not going above $3K-$5K. 
Even at $6K, it's less than most dogs will cost you to get to HRCH title.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Gauge123 said:


> I agree with Willie. A lot of people are asking $6K-$8K but buyers are not going above $3K-$5K.
> Even at $6K, it's less than most dogs will cost you to get to HRCH title.


$1000 puppy. $500 in vet bills. 18 months at minimum at a pro @ $600 a month is $10,800....for a grand total of $12,300...if and only if your particular dog HRCH's by 24 months old. 6K is a steal!!!


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## kpolley (Jun 5, 2007)

Yep, would love to give someone $4000 for a well breed 2 year old HRCH bitch with all her clearances!!!!! Would immediately place her for sale and make $2000-4000. Be even better if she was chocolate!


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

10 to 20 thousand.


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## mizzippi jb (Jan 22, 2014)

BlaineT said:


> 10 to 20 thousand.


Yes and yes


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

BlaineT said:


> 10 to 20 thousand.


Not sure what females in the HRCH go for or what their top end is. Very good derby dogs routinely go for that amount with the understanding that they may eventually end up as FC/AFC or maybe even with the letter N in front of those. About ten years ago I was hunting in AR with wealthy hunters. When they seen my hunting dog work one of the gentlemen offered me 10 grand on the spot for the dog. Wasn't enough for me to part ways with him!!


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

BlaineT said:


> 10 to 20 thousand.


I wouldn't sell an intact, 2yr old HRCH bitch for less than 10k.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JoeOverby said:


> I wouldn't sell an intact, 2yr old HRCH bitch for less than 10k.


 Would you refuse to pass up on one selling for $8K?


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Copter, if I was in the market for one, and I could watch her run, 8K would be a bargain in my book. But no, I wouldn't take 8K for one I was selling.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> $1000 puppy. $500 in vet bills. 18 months at minimum at a pro @ $600 a month is $10,800....for a grand total of $12,300..


Just think if the puppy buyer did it him/herself what the profit would be?? Think your numbers are about double what the actual selling price would be, investment and selling price have nothing in common.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

So Todd. You'd sell an HRCH female for less than 10k?? I understand that the investment is often more than the selling price however, it's my belief a dog at that level is worth 5 figures. As to the puppy buyer doing it him/herself...is their time not worth anything? You figure on the same timeline averaging an hour a day, 5 days a week, at $20/hr it still comes out at a $10,600 investment.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I agree with this , possibly more with the right ped


ks_hunting said:


> I would consider $4k a steal for an HRCH female with clearances at 3 years old.
> 
> If I were selling such an animal I would aim in the $6000-$8000 range if she was completely healthy.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

You reap what you sow. 
Now the question becomes…what is the demand? Just saying. 
What you consider your time is will depend on that price and no more. 
In a perfect world...greed is not in the picture.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

If I could sell every sub-two-year-old-HRCH bitch with the minimum health clearances for $10k, I'd quit my job.

Hell, I'd even quit my job if I could sell them for $6K.

Sure, I'd take a few losses. But, it's not that hard to pin an HRCH on a dog before it's two years old. 
And most dogs meet the minimum health clearances on their second B-day.

If it was only one dog at a time, it'd be damn tough. Maybe impossible. 
But with 6+ dogs on the truck at a time, it'd be easy money.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Todd Caswell said:


> Just think if the puppy buyer did it him/herself what the profit would be?? Think your numbers are about double what the actual selling price would be, investment and selling price have nothing in common.


Yatzee!! 
Purchase price and vet bills are no factor in selling price because they have to be there from the start. No different than buying a car without an engine or tires. $6,000-$7,000 tops if and when you find the right buyer which may never happen. Human nature to think what you have forsale is worth the price but not someone else.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

JoeOverby said:


> So Todd. You'd sell an HRCH female for less than 10k?? I understand that the investment is often more than the selling price however, it's my belief a dog at that level is worth 5 figures. As to the puppy buyer doing it him/herself...is their time not worth anything? You figure on the same timeline averaging an hour a day, 5 days a week, at $20/hr it still comes out at a $10,600 investment.


Joe, you may be right as you obviously play the games while my interest goes only as far as watching so I see what dogs I may want a pup from. 

But I have to question the math on 2 points. First, many people, armature hobby guys, will have MH a decent dog by 3-4 while training 3-4 days a week with less in winter, and hrch is, in my opinion easier. 2nd, if your math were true wouldn't the pro trainers just sell their own trained dogs instead of taking client dogs? I mean way less hassle, nobody calling in evening, no dissatisfied complaining clients, no trying to fill empty runs, can take a day or week off when they want. Don't HAVE to go to every test. And year end make as much or more than they would by training client dogs.

There's one for sale you can prolly get at $6k and flip for $5k profit.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> If I could sell every sub-two-year-old-HRCH bitch with the minimum health clearances for $10k, I'd quit my job.
> 
> Hell, I'd even quit my job if I could sell them for $6K.
> 
> ...



X2

When I sit and watch 2 year old HRCH dogs work, most if any aren't that good, loose , noisy, been pushed through the program, nothing I would spend 10 grand on...


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

JoeOverby said:


> So Todd. You'd sell an HRCH female for less than 10k?? I understand that the investment is often more than the selling price however, it's my belief a dog at that level is worth 5 figures. As to the puppy buyer doing it him/herself...is their time not worth anything? You figure on the same timeline averaging an hour a day, 5 days a week, at $20/hr it still comes out at a $10,600 investment.


Joe, can you tell me how many UKC hrch dogs that have sold for $10,000 recently? Dogs aren't an investment, they are a Capital Expenditure and only a handful will ever pay dividend.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Raymond, it's not about how many have recently sold. I believe I said I personally wouldnt sell one for less. BIG difference. As far as some others comments, "it's not much to put an hrch on a sub 2 year old", "most 2 yr old HRCH's have been pushed through and aren't very good", etc...there is a difference between a 5K dog and a 10k dog regardless of title or age. I still wouldn't sell an HRCH female for 6 grand. I believe they're worth more than that.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Raymond Little said:


> Yatzee!!
> *Purchase price and vet bills are no factor in selling price* because they have to be there from the start. No different than buying a car without an engine or tires. $6,000-$7,000 tops if and when you find the right buyer which may never happen. Human nature to think what you have forsale is worth the price but not someone else.


 I agree…it's unavoidable costs.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JoeOverby said:


> ....I still wouldn't sell an HRCH female for 6 grand. I believe they're worth more than that.


 Something is only worth what two people can agree that it's worth.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't ever pay $10K for a 2 year old HRCH bitch. But, it'd take a whole lot more than "two years old", "HRCH" and "health clearances" for me to spend any more than $4K for those "things".


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> Something is only worth what two people can agree that it's worth.
> 
> I'm not saying that I wouldn't ever pay $10K for a 2 year old HRCH bitch. But, it'd take a whole lot more than "two years old", "HRCH" and "health clearances" for me to spend any more than $4K for those "things".


I do understand what you are saying. I would also venture a guess that what I consider ready to run HRCH and what passes most weekends is different. The majority of my HRCH dogs are capable of much more than just a finished title.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

2 in classifieds; $7,000 & $10,000
$7,000 may sell but the $10,000 will die of old age before anyone knowledgeble will drop that kind of coin on a common breeding.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JoeOverby said:


> I do understand what you are saying. I would also venture a guess that what I consider ready to run HRCH and what passes most weekends is different. The majority of my HRCH dogs are capable of much more than just a finished title.


 I do not doubt that one tiny bit.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

JoeOverby said:


> I do understand what you are saying. I would also venture a guess that what I consider ready to run HRCH and what passes most weekends is different. The majority of my HRCH dogs are capable of much more than just a finished title.


I sincerely believe one is disputing that.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

JoeOverby said:


> Raymond, it's not about how many have recently sold. I believe I said I personally wouldnt sell one for less. BIG difference. As far as some others comments, "it's not much to put an hrch on a sub 2 year old", "most 2 yr old HRCH's have been pushed through and aren't very good", etc...there is a difference between a 5K dog and a 10k dog regardless of title or age. I still wouldn't sell an HRCH female for 6 grand. I believe they're worth more than that.


Well there you go Joe, you learned something tonight, makes no scence for you to train client dogs, when you can start and sell 2-3 year old HRC dogs for 10,000+. Report back in a few years and let us know it works out for you..


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> Well there you go Joe, you learned something tonight, makes no scence for you to train client dogs, when you can start and sell 2-3 year old HRC dogs for 10,000+. Report back in a few years and let us know it works out for you..


You just can't help but be a prick can you? What doesn't make sense is why you think your opinion is gospel. You think a dog is worth X and I think it's worth Y. Guess we won't ever be doing business...let me know when I should start losing sleep.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

If I were you I wouldn't loose any sleep over it period, I'm not going to. OP asked a ? as to the price of a dog some of us said "X" you said "Y" nothing gospal about it..


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Play nice , boys


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Play nice , boys


Always Do, no name calling from me....Id'e never call anyone the "P" word behind there back.....


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

gdluck said:


> Joe 2nd, if your math were true wouldn't the pro trainers just sell their own trained dogs instead of taking client dogs?


YUP!! If it was easy and a money maker Pro's would just sale "started" dogs But its NOT Market is all over the place No idea when someone will want to buy one or pay what its worth On top of the fact that not that many people actually buy "started" dogs Most of them have puppies About 1-50 calls i get from people are looking for started dogs All the others are looking for puppies/training I've sold 2 started dogs before... After the 2nd one is said NO more Lost money on both I make %80 profit off training client dogs and its only 4 months of my life


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## big gunner (Mar 1, 2010)

A friend and old pro offered to get me 65 M if I could teach that dog to handle. A year later he was QAA and training with him I asked if he could still get me that 65M and he said," is he for sale." My answer is NO!! I have heard of retrievers going as high as 200M this is a closed market to the wealthy. After tailying what I spent in FT's & training in 1 year 6m is a deal. Cost that year was 26m. Not that hard to do with 1 dog. I don't even want to think to think of trialing multiple dogs.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Is your m referring to million?


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## big gunner (Mar 1, 2010)

No Thousands.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

I thought so lol I was going to say wow over a million lol and I'm assuming it is 2600 not 26k?


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## duramax00 (Mar 5, 2012)

So would you say that hrch is easier to obtain than masters. What about grhrch compared to masters?


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

big gunner said:


> A friend and old pro offered to get me 65 M if I could teach that dog to handle. A year later he was QAA and training with him I asked if he could still get me that 65M and he said," is he for sale." My answer is NO!! I have heard of retrievers going as high as 200M this is a closed market to the wealthy. After tailying what I spent in FT's & training in 1 year 6m is a deal. Cost that year was 26m. Not that hard to do with 1 dog. I don't even want to think to think of trialing multiple dogs.


Have you been drinking?


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## Parker M. (Mar 6, 2014)

duramax00 said:


> So would you say that hrch is easier to obtain than masters. What about grhrch compared to masters?



I will just put it this way, most handlers go for HRCH first then continue to MH..... AND I have never ran a Grand or got to watch one but I hear its a tough tough event. Solid dog for 5 days straight if im not mistaken.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Unless you are willing to sell the best dog you have ever owned, don't get in the dog selling business if you are talking about in terms of thousands of dollars. If you do sell one for a lot of money, egos go out the window. If a Pro ever trains the dog, It will be his training no matter how many titles or accolades it gets or has and the current owner.


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## Bob Glover (Nov 14, 2008)

In ANY transaction, the 'cost' you have in anything is already gone; the accounting term is a 'sunk cost'. You've already spent that time/money on the asset. Puppy price, vet bills, training time, etc. are all 'sunk costs'. The only question is what the buyer will pay. When people say "I've got xxx invested, so I can't sell it for less than xxx", they couldn't be more wrong!


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## duramax00 (Mar 5, 2012)

lets say you pay 10000 for a female that's 2 years old has hrch title you breed her at 3 to a real nice stud both have no health issues both have a nice looking pedigree you have 10 pups at 800.00 a pup now you only have 2000 in dog not counting stud fees and vet bill for an hrch female


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

i_willie12 said:


> YUP!! If it was easy and a money maker Pro's would just sale "started" dogs But its NOT Market is all over the place No idea when someone will want to buy one or pay what its worth On top of the fact that not that many people actually buy "started" dogs Most of them have puppies About 1-50 calls i get from people are looking for started dogs All the others are looking for puppies/training I've sold 2 started dogs before... After the 2nd one is said NO more Lost money on both I make %80 profit off training client dogs and its only 4 months of my life


Can you break down your P&L statement for me? 80% profit is unreal, I want to know how you do it.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

duramax00 said:


> lets say you pay 10000 for a female that's 2 years old has hrch title you breed her at 3 to a real nice stud both have no health issues both have a nice looking pedigree you have 10 pups at 800.00 a pup now you only have 2000 in dog not counting stud fees and vet bill for an hrch female


I don't think its that simple
$800 dogs will send you right to the poor house. Very little money in dressing up a pig.


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## Cptmorgan177 (Oct 11, 2014)

I bet if you add up your expenses it wouldn't come out that way.
this may not be true for labs, but I've bred a few litters of griffons and I didn't make much, if any money on a litter. Granted to breed to a good griffon, you generally have to go across the country. But the same could be said for some lab breedings. Collection costs, shipping costs, progesterone, ai, dew claws, shots, worming, microchips, food, etc. granted natural Breedings are a lot cheaper.
just my 2 cents.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Cptmorgan177 said:


> I bet if you add up your expenses it wouldn't come out that way.
> this may not be true for labs, but I've bred a few litters of griffons and I didn't make much, if any money on a litter. Granted to breed to a good griffon, you generally have to go across the country. But the same could be said for some lab breedings. Collection costs, shipping costs, progesterone, ai, dew claws, shots, worming, microchips, food, etc. granted natural Breedings are a lot cheaper.
> just my 2 cents.


Creative math and delusions of grandeur.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

duramax00 said:


> lets say you pay 10000 for a female that's 2 years old has hrch title you breed her at 3 to a real nice stud both have no health issues both have a nice looking pedigree you have 10 pups at 800.00 a pup now you only have 2000 in dog not counting stud fees and vet bill for an hrch female


Now let's try the realistic version.


You pay 10k for that HRCH bitch. Breed to an FC-AFC, so pups should be in the $1000+ range. Stud fee, progesterone tests, shipping semen, insemination vet bills ($2200 or so this far).....and she misses the first time. Next cycle, you try again. Stud fee is already paid, so $1200 in expenses. You've got $3400 in so far. Your litter plus the bitch has cost you $13,400. Oops...forgot to add a year and a half's worth of dog food, heartworm meds, vaccines, etc. so let's add another $750. $14,150. You finally get her bred, and she has five puppies....via C-section. Add $1500. $15,650. You raise the pups to seven weeks. Add vet bills,litter registration and food. $350. $16,000. Subtract the $5000 you got for those five puppies and you're still $11,000 in the hole. So you go through it all again in a year or two. This time you get lucky and have eight pups....but lose one. $11,000 plus $2250 for those breeding costs. $13,250. Raising the pups as before: $400. Now it's $13,650. You sell all the pups, so subtract 7k. You're still $6,650 in the hole after two litters. And don't forget to add another two years of food and care for the bitch...$1500, so you're $8150 in the hole. Oh yeah...and you've donated hundreds of hours of your time to raising two litters of pups, plus gas and trips to vet, but you place no value on that. Two litters and you're still $8,150 in the hole and she's now almost six. Maybe if you try one more time you'll break even, if you don't count your time. And maybe not.


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## duramax00 (Mar 5, 2012)

if you do a progesterone test then you wouldn't miss why would you need a C-section. If you buy a pup at 1200.00 put it with a pro for 24 months at 600.00 14400.00+1200.0 for puppy price +entry fees to test 660.00 handling fees +440.00 =16700.00


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

duramax00 said:


> if you do a progesterone test then you wouldn't miss why would you need a C-section. If you buy a pup at 1200.00 put it with a pro for 24 months at 600.00 14400.00+1200.0 for puppy price +entry fees to test 660.00 handling fees +440.00 =16700.00


Even with progesterone tests, you can miss. It's just one way to time things as close as possible...it's not a guarantee. It happens fairly often. C-section? Well, with that big puppy stuck and the bitch exhausted from trying to push it out I suppose you could just let nature take its course instead of going to the vet and lose the rest of the pups and the bitch.

How many litters have you raised?

And I like your math even better if you buy that pup, have it trained and then raise pups. Don't forget to add the additional food, health clearances, etc. for the next eight years after it comes home from the pro. Now you're way further in the hole than your original math....and since she's always in season/having pups, you don't get much hunting in either.


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## duramax00 (Mar 5, 2012)

I haven't put a pencil on how much I have spent. I bought a pup and trained her myself got the hrch title at 22 months old. currently she's with pro. she's been there since last may .she's 2 passes away from master title and she running grand in April. with a couple ukc hunt test coming up she will qualify for master nationals with 2passes.She'll be 3 in April. I'm not in a hurry to breed her.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

huntinlabs said:


> I thought so lol I was going to say wow over a million lol and I'm assuming it is 2600 not 26k?


M, which is the Roman numeral for 1000, is often used in accounting/proformas/prospectus to designate thousands. MM is the designation for million, and K can also be used for thousands. 

I'm also quite sure he indeed meant 26 thousand.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

in the last four years i have sold started dogs that among other things:
-had hunt test titles including an hrch, good, normal, clear, clear bitch
-had derby jams and reserve jams
-had qualifying jam
-won a ft qualifying 30 days post sale triggering a kicker at 2yrs nine days. his name was red that week on josie's email
-was selected for a scent discrimination in canines study at johns hopkins univ
-"picked up 2,500 birds and is the best dog we ever had at this club"
-currently running in am's and opens
-all bred wayyyyyy beyond common occurrence

and i aint sold one for five figures yet!

but when i say i have a good one, people are at least starting to listen. btw, did i mention i got a good one! ;-)


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

roseberry said:


> in the last four years i have sold started dogs that among other things:
> -had hunt test titles including an hrch, good, normal, clear, clear bitch
> -had derby jams and reserve jams
> -had qualifying jam
> ...


Who did the "basics" on this one? What is the trainers "profit margin"? When and where is said trainers next seminar?


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Raymond Little said:


> Who did the *"basics"* on this one? What is the trainers *"profit margin"? *When and where is said trainers next *seminar*?


raymond,
i did the* basics *but this bitch didn't know what a basic was. she only knew birds and gunners. she was the HOTTEST, MOST HOT, HIGHEST DRIVE freak of natural talent i have owned. here is the *seminar* from her trainer, "when someone says, "i love my firebreather" i know they have never had one like her.";-) i sold her because i had fear that efforts to control her would result in injury to her(or me) and training her to the mat was an unbelievable chore. plus she had a kennelmate with a derby campaign i was funding who made the list.

*profit?, *i got $8,500 and the people that placed her in the program prob got $85,000. if i had kept her there wouldn't be a holding blind in the southeast still in one piece. she was from la, you prob had littermates or brothers and sisters.


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## tjleitch (Jul 14, 2014)

This will depend on alot of factors!


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## BigBlueJohn1978 (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't know what world Joe lives in, but it is not in this galaxy. I bought a QAA female out of a NFC FC AFC X FC AFC bitch that had 112 AA points for 10 K. 10 K for a HRCH is insane!


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