# Can Field Labs Stand, (stack or whatever)?; Photo Challenge



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

OK so I've been reading all the conformation threads, with interest. What I got out of most of them is that conformation judges have a certain idea what is standard, perhaps because they never see the other lab type. Then I've been looking at the pictures of the pass dual champions, and most field type labs; seems like all the standing pictures of these type of lab are dated 20's, 50's etc. It is very hard to find a modern Field Lab who is standing (stacking); all the pictures of this type are Labs sitting. Thus it is hard to put them up as a side by side comparison.

So I'm sitting at home last night, having a cocktail and figure how hard can it be to get a picture of a field lab standing, why not try it. After a few attempts conclusion is..It is very very hard, field labs move around, or they sit, then when you get them to stand they look like they're being tortured. We also got out the measuring tape and stood on the scale. (we won't mention how much of my weight I had to subtract, to get theirs )

So I throw it out to the forum, Can you get a picture of your Lab standing? Perhaps we can get a few nice pics, or at least we can have a bit of fun. 

Just so no one feels embarrassed, I'll go first here are my attempts at, conformation stand field lab

6yr. Female (height 23in; Weight 65lb) in standard abet being tortured, and looks like she's gonna be getting a few less cookies 








14mt. Female (height 22in Weight 55lb) in standard abet being restrained, not done filling out so I'm guessing ~60-65lb when she's done








I'm definitely not interested in a conformation assessment; but I did get them to stand


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

I think field labs don't like to stand because they are tired from running. The show labs stand becuse they are tired of laying down.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

My (then) 8yo male was accepted to participate in an orthopedic study at Texas A&M; I think they were interested in elbows, but all I know is that you'd get free comprehensive exams and reports, so I took him. After dropping him off and heading for some breakfast (they said allow 2 hours), I got a call before I could even order my eggs. "You can come get him. We can't use him. He won't stand for the X-rays". Well no $hit. He's been trained to sit since he was 7 weeks old....


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Good thread!
It is not hard to teach your dog this (and, I think, perhaps some conformation breeders would take 'us' more seriously if we could ever show them that a field dog in good condition in a standing position). 
This is what I do. Have my dog sit. Throw out something enticing a few feet in front of them. While they are looking at it, physically stand them up and tell them stay. Step back 6 feet and snap a photo. Release to fetch said item. If they sit back down again before I get the photo or release them, I just go prop them back up. Takes all of 5 minutes to learn the drill and then you can get more fussy about foot placement later. The toy/bumper out front gives them something to focus on so they aren't turning to look at you - seems to work better than a human helper.

Best way to measure height- just like a kid! Have them stand next to a wall, mark a spot, and then measure that. Much easier than trying to measure the dog  

22 inches, 58 lb bitch a couple weeks after weaning her 3rd litter (out of coat!) 









22 inches, 55 lb bitch- about 5 weeks pregnant in this pic:









Keep in mind that even with a dog standing quietly, their structure can look a lot different depending on if they are hunched up, leaning slightly backwards (ready to pounce!) or if your camera angle isn't square on or at dog level.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

A requirement for obedience is to “stand for an exam” 

As erin said.. Its not hard to teach .. I use a different method than what she described but there is more than one way to skin a cat (or a dog I guess)... 
none of my dogs have a drip of “show” blood ... but they can “stand”


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

How do get them to stand still? Teach it. 

Here is a young retriever learning to "whoa", "down" and "sit" with verbal commands and/or hand signals during daily OB sessions. The final expectation was to have Gunny return from a remote sit and do multiple, alternating "sits", "downs" and "whoas" (with verbal commands) on the way back to "heel" (off lead). 




























This last photo is directed more at having Daisy "not moving" and savoring the scent.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)




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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

It's easy to teach....but on iPhone so won't attempt to explain, I'll leave it to others.

also search RTF a few years back a few RTFers with an eye toward conformation were kind to do evaluations on those willing to post pictures...but as usual if my memory serves me correctly it went down hill cause people don't have thick skin and take things personally....


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Just to clarify- the method I described is not how I teach 'stand' as a formal cue - that is just a quicky way to get a dog who doesn't know the command to stand for a photo


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> OK so I've been reading all the conformation threads, with interest. What I got out of most of them is that conformation judges have a certain idea what is standard, perhaps because they never see the other lab type. Then I've been looking at the pictures of the pass dual champions, and most field type labs; seems like all the standing pictures of these type of lab are dated 20's, 50's etc. It is very hard to find a modern Field Lab who is standing (stacking); all the pictures of this type are Labs sitting. Thus it is hard to put them up as a side by side comparison.
> 
> So I'm sitting at home last night, having a cocktail and figure how hard can it be to get a picture of a field lab standing, why not try it. After a few attempts conclusion is..It is very very hard, field labs move around, or they sit, then when you get them to stand they look like they're being tortured. We also got out the measuring tape and stood on the scale. (we won't mention how much of my weight I had to subtract, to get theirs )
> 
> ...


My FC/AFC sired lab that lives in a show world can actually pull off a show stack. HUbby is out of town this week so no show stack and camera at the ready. He loves to play show dog beacuse that means cookies.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Whoa- or 'wait'


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

Dave Farrar said:


> I think field labs don't like to stand because they are tired from running. The show labs stand becuse they are tired of laying down.


My FC/AFC sired lab who lives in a show house knows how to stand. He learned as a pup for grooming purposes. Stand nice and you get some personal attention via the brush.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

One thing that a lot of my show-friends do is to intentionally NOT teach the dog to sit until later in their career, if ever. That prevents the sitting in anticipation that all of our field dogs are accustomed to doing from basically 8 weeks. They also have these little gadgets where the puppies learn to put one paw on each block, to learn muscle memory for the proper stacked position. Maybe one of the show people on here can post a pic or describe their process a little more thoroughly.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't say anything !
I just stand still and they look at me for the 'next command'  Dumb dawgs .


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

mitty said:


> I was wondering the same thing! I had the same problem! How do you train them to stand still? Mine kept sitting as well! I was even trying treats but soon as the treat was gone down plopped her bottom.
> 
> I was trying to see if she was too tall (outside the standard for height), how the heck to you measure height with the tail waggin' etc.?
> 
> I concluded that she is somewhere between 21" and 25" tall


This is not hard!! Take little pup, place on slip proof bath mat and hold treat outward while holding pup in a stand with nothing more than a hand below belly. Repeat command stand. Forget about thinking of this as a show thing. Think about a vet exam!


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

yep ..


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

Erin Lynes said:


> One thing that a lot of my show-friends do is to intentionally NOT teach the dog to sit until later in their career, if ever. That prevents the sitting in anticipation that all of our field dogs are accustomed to doing from basically 8 weeks. They also have these little gadgets where the puppies learn to put one paw on each block, to learn muscle memory for the proper stacked position. Maybe one of the show people on here can post a pic or describe their process a little more thoroughly.


And those are fools! Ours are taught the ob auto sit from day one and when they play in the show show ring we simply use a stand command. Mostly we use the utility hand signal for the moving stand.
NOthing wrong with my dog doing an ob moving stand in the ob ring!


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

Dave Farrar said:


> I think field labs don't like to stand because they are tired from running. The show labs stand becuse they are tired of laying down.


Buddy, FC/AFC sired loves to clown and play show dog, that means cookies!


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

When I was the Hunt Test Chairman, I brought the first Confirmation Certificate into Montana it was in conjunction with our Hunt Test. Barb and Don Ironwood came over and judged the JR an SR and Barb also judged the CC.
She judged them whether they were wet, muddy or whatever. I brought my dog in to get judged and he just finished a water blind, as we all know a lab gets friendlier the wetter it is. She was trying to get him to stack and he kept licking her face. She gave him a high score for temperament.


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## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

Here is standing picture of my Field Champion Gunner out Duck Hunting a few years back. Gunner will be 15 here soon.


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

polmaise said:


>


I think I've seen you post this shot before but I just *love* it- the colors, composition, everything. It's a beautiful shot!


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

The one above of Gunner is another beautiful photograph. ^^


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Lb. in working condition...












"Low Tide's Pounder"


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## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

I'll add another layer to this by bringing up the old British lab... when you import foreign dogs, AKC requests two photographs of the dog - front and side view - both STANDING, in order to complete registration. I've done this 8 or so times now, and it is always a ridiculous process getting these field bred dogs to stand up for a picture. For the last one, just two weeks ago, I held him up while my wife took the picture. It was either that or send in a picture that looked like he was being abused.

here's my boy FTW Dark River Fall "Archie":








** not sure of his height, but he weighs around 65lbs


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## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

Weren't too hard.
A simple "stay".
26.3" to the flat area behind his shoulder hump and 87 pounds.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I dunno, looks like you had to use some props too...


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

John Lash ... that is one FINE looking dog!!!!! 

It looks like a lot of these photos are dogs standing ... not dogs that have been TRAINED TO stand.... just an observation


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## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

LOL!
Didn't even see his duckie laying there....
Darn child, I keep telling him to stop leaving his toys laying around, or Ill throw them out.
He's just an irresponsible 21 year old!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

this is 4 time National Finalist (2 National Open, 2 National Amateur) .RHOF inductee

Dual Ch. AFC Royal Oaks Jill of Burgundy- Owned/handled by Alanson Brown III

photo courtesy of Lanse Brown


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Ok "stacking," once you know the jargon there's a whole new internet dog training world!

How long does it take to train this:


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I don't know how long it takes to train it, I think I know enough to say the dog in the training video isn't a lab . If it were a lab, it would sit, or it's tail would be wagging so it's back-end don't stay still, while trying to lick the handler, and retrieving the props, then coming over to slime the camera, the camera man, and knock over his drink. Only to finally stand tail-tucked, back hunched, ears down; looking like a candidate for a HSUS commercial


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## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

Here is an article with very specific directions to teach dogs (and their people) proper conformation stacking. A lot more to it than I thought. http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page40/

There's another article there about gaiting for shows.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

That's a common misconception among show people, and it's a bunch of hooey. Dogs are smart enough to know the difference. We showed in breed and obedience at the same time, he has an automatic sit in the obedience ring but can tell the difference between heeling around an obedience ring, and jogging around the breed ring with a hunk of liver in the handler's hand....



Erin Lynes said:


> One thing that a lot of my show-friends do is to intentionally NOT teach the dog to sit until later in their career, if ever. That prevents the sitting in anticipation that all of our field dogs are accustomed to doing from basically 8 weeks. They also have these little gadgets where the puppies learn to put one paw on each block, to learn muscle memory for the proper stacked position. Maybe one of the show people on here can post a pic or describe their process a little more thoroughly.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Steve Babcock said:


> When I was the Hunt Test Chairman, I brought the first Confirmation Certificate into Montana it was in conjunction with our Hunt Test. Barb and Don Ironwood came over and judged the JR an SR and Barb also judged the CC.
> She judged them whether they were wet, muddy or whatever. I brought my dog in to get judged and he just finished a water blind, as we all know a lab gets friendlier the wetter it is. She was trying to get him to stack and he kept licking her face. She gave him a high score for temperament.


Ironside.  And yes, both Barb and Don are quite used to that behavior! All of my gang living here go back to their choc CH/SH Shooter.

What I do is simply take my camera along on our 3milers. They get probably 10 miles in on some days to my 3.. plus swimming inte big canal. Usually after awhile, I can catch them in a nice standing pose naturally looking at something (the gun club is near, and some also fly remote control planes there) or I put them in their Obed stand and toss something to get their head up at attention. With puppies/untrained dogs, you can tether them as I did in the last photo and just wave something in front of them.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

It's a whole lot easier to teach the dog than it is to teach the handler! You are expected to have the dog stacked correctly in 5 seconds or less when in the ring. It helps a lot if the dog knows "put it down" (the foot), and of course, "stay".
Here's a properly stacked dog. (That's not me handling him, btw). Notice the front leg drops down completely straight from the body. The rear legs are pulled back so that a line from the bones on the back of the butt, dropped straight down, will just hit the front of the back toes. That shows the rear angulation correctly. The head is held high so that the arch of the neck and the forechest show correctly.
These are win photos, so the tail is held up. In the ring, the tail is not held up, because the topline is shown more correctly if you let the tail hang in its natural position. 
In the third photo, the dog is "free stacked", which a lot of judges ask for. It means you stop him and he is standing naturally, without you placing his legs or otherwise altering his natural stance.
The final photo is a candid shot. You can see that the "stacked" photos and the candid shot are very similar, so the stacking just shows the natural dog, doesn't alter his basic physique in any way.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Gimme a day or two.

HPL


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

Hagen, stacked on a log


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> That's a common misconception among show people, and it's a bunch of hooey. Dogs are smart enough to know the difference. We showed in breed and obedience at the same time, he has an automatic sit in the obedience ring but can tell the difference between heeling around an obedience ring, and jogging around the breed ring with a hunk of liver in the handler's hand....


Oh, I agree! I thought it was funny that rather than 'teaching' something, they thought it was easier to 'not' teach something else! lol BTW those are NOT lab people, maybe retriever folks are smarter than foo-foo owners


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I never tried it with the labs but the FT setters could do it.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Great thread....thanks for sharing.


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## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

I don't know if this is stacking, but here is a couple side pix of my avatar,Titan MH, . He is kind of a tweener---mostly field bred but with a couple bench dogs 4or 5 layers back. One of them was Int'l CH Puh's Superman.


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## AllAroundLab (Dec 21, 2010)

Good thread. 

It would be great if more field-bred stud dogs had standing side view photos on a level surface (including the feet!). It is not just show people who need to see the standing pictures of field Labs, it is surely something everyone should consider before breeding a pair of dogs. Good performance horse breeders certainly consider conformation in breeding decisions, why should performance dog breeders be any different? To have some idea of a dog's structure without traveling all over the country to see every talented, titled possible stud dog would be helpful. Even a MH or FC can have splayed feet, upright shoulders, or rear legs like posts, it does the job in spite of those issues, doesn't mean things like that don't matter to the soundness of the dog or its offspring. If I have a bitch with the same issues, doubling up on them is probably not a good idea. While I do believe it is better to see a dog and watch it work in person that isn't always possible and in any case won't work until the choices are narrowed to a few.


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## Trifecta (May 17, 2013)

Suggestions for photos....

Try shooting the pictures on the "dog's level", ie, kneel down so you're not taking the photo over top of the dog. It gives a much less distorted image of the overall picture of the dog.

Many dogs will free stack naturally if you throw something for them to catch (ie, bait) so that they have to jump up. Many of them will land naturally in a stacked position, but you need to have a second person taking the photo to get the picture.

lots of nice photos on this thread, btw.


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## Trifecta (May 17, 2013)

Someone asked about block training. These are not mine, I borrowed a set from a friend as they are very expensive. You can achieve similar results with large soup cans but this is the concept. I place the dog in the position I want and tie it to a command (stand). I've seen show dogs that know each foot by command and will reset individual feet as needed... its just like any other trained behavior.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

mitty said:


> Ok "stacking," once you know the jargon there's a whole new internet dog training world!
> 
> How long does it take to train this:


It takes about a week, although the more effective way is to start them when they are young, hide behind something and scare them to death by jumping out and hitting them in the head with a pheasant at them while yelling "whoa", the same way they teach pointing labs.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

The easiest way to get a good picture of the dog standing if it's not trained to stack is to put it up on a table or tailgate. Easier to move the feet around, and when you go to take the photo, you don't have to crouch down to get at eye level with the dog and can usually get a good photo easily. Because as someone else noted, looking down on the dog or using the wide angle lens that a lot of point & shoot and cell cameras have distorts things quite a bit. I too always want to see a photo of a dog I'm interested in standing. You can't see their wheels when they're sitting. You also can't see how they're put together, in fact about the only thing you can see in the usual sitting shots is the dog's head with the ears perked.


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## mtncntrykid (May 31, 2011)

Best I could do!


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

There are some great photos here. The biggest issue I see is in most of them the rear legs need to be pulled back so that the front edge of the rear toes is under the bone that is on the butt (clear as mud?) so the rear legs don't appear straighter than they really are.
Just for fun, here's the same dog standing unstacked on a table. The table is too short, so his rear legs are too far forward, too. We did this a while ago on another forum so that people could learn about the angles and such. The pieces of paper mark the places a judge *should* be checking for bone to determine the forechest, front and rear angulation, and length of the loin.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Also photos showing correct and incorrect angulation in the rear leg. Dog in the first photo is very straight in the leg, which provides no shock absorbers and sets the dog up for injuries. Second photo shows correct angulation.


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## RuDawg (Jul 16, 2012)

This is my pups Dad, Bo Bearpoint Pal. He is not titled, but has a championship bloodline. Now he is one of those controversial "pointing labs" which might explain the stance.


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## Peter G Lippert (Mar 26, 2011)

This is a shameless brag. Here is my show pup. He is a golden black lab mix! I not kidding I think he know when I am taking a picture because he pretty much poses like this. What a HAM!!


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

Somewhat stacked, in the field waiting on the drivers to flush pheasants -


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Even from a young age!...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

since someone else posted their pointing dog, Here is my friend/mentor George Wilson,with 3rd National Champion GSP in Council Mountain Buzzsaw ( Buzz)...George is a former National Amateur Judge and Finalist


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Back at ya Bon. Me with Belfield Silver 2003 National Shooting Dog Invitational winner when he was still a derby dog....... and Fred the walking horse. not sure if Fred is "stacked" or asleep.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

I have a hard time taking pictures of my Labs because they keep wanting to come over and lick my face. My younger Labrador with stand with just a neck rub. Today I took her to the groomer because they offer a de- shedding bath, she is blowing her coat. I asked how she did and they told me she did great. She came out all happy. Made me think maybe I should put her in a couple confirmation shows, but then I remembered I would have to put at least 20 pounds on her. I just don't see her being able to add that much weight on anytime. She is about 22" and 61 lbs. 

Terri


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

zeus3925 said:


> I don't know if this is stacking, but here is a couple side pix of my avatar,Titan MH, . He is kind of a tweener---mostly field bred but with a couple bench dogs 4or 5 layers back. One of them was Int'l CH Puh's Superman.
> 
> View attachment 17463
> View attachment 17464


That's a nice looking dog Sarge!


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

This is a puppy that we raised, mostly field breeding, she's not completely "stacked", she was around 8 months old when I took the picture if I remember correctly. Her rear leg is slightly turned toward the camera, so looks a little straighter than it really is, but still could use more angulation in the rear legs. (Please excuse the chicken and duck pens in the background)


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

This is Ozzy. He is a 9 month old out of my UKC GRCH/MH Kona and a field bred bitch. Half field half show


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

These 2 Solid field bred Labs stack nicely. 

This is Tanner (Hunting Memories), JH (soon to be MH) son of an AFC, FC



The next photo is 4XGMPR HRCH Rooster Smasher, MH, QAA with on Grand pass


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

torg said:


> These 2 Solid field bred Labs stack nicely.
> 
> This is Tanner (Hunting Memories), JH (soon to be MH) son of an AFC, FC
> 
> ...


Wow are they nice! very well put together . If anyone dared say they did not fit standard ,if they were mine I would punch them in the nose!


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Last year I tried stacking a litter of pups at five weeks old. Here are the photos:

http://www.crittercreeklabradors.com/MuddyBelle13.html

VERY HARD to get babies to stack, and even harder to get a field dog who has had "sit" burned into its brain. Had a tough time teaching my MH stand for inspection, and once he learned it, he will only do it indoors in a training situation, not out in the field!

Meredith


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

Billie said:


> Wow are they nice! very well put together . If anyone dared say they did not fit standard ,if they were mine I would punch them in the nose!


Thanks Karen.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

This is what my guy thinks of stacking


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

This one 'Stacks' pretty well .
At the beginning and end ,there is also a bit of 'Puppy stacking too'.
I would turn the sound down though 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfuZW7KB7uk


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Torg...VERY nice!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> This one 'Stacks' pretty well...


Told you, Robt., I likes them British Labs best that _*blows*_ their stack










wantin' inna water.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Told you, Robt., I likes them British Labs best that _*blows*_ their stack
> wantin' inna water.
> 
> MG


I'm with Ya'...Got one young un, just to show ya,come the good weather  We will be training on the River Forth.


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