# Training with dead birds question



## Majja13 (Oct 29, 2013)

Ok so I am newbie here. I will be picking up my great little pup next week and have been going over some of the training material and it got me thinking. When introducing the dog to dead birds is it ok to use them and then just freeze them, and then thaw for another training session. IF this is the case how long can you use a bird.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

First welcome and best wishes for success!
There are others here that know much more than i 
If the pup is truly the weeks old baby lets leave the birds in the freezer. 
Use a sock , a paint roller , then a small canvass bumper. 
Socialization and obedance with a liberal dose of understanding 
Birds come later and then only in small doses. 
Good luck 
Dk


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## Majja13 (Oct 29, 2013)

Yea I know we are no where near ready for dead birds these is just to feed my obsession of learning as much as I can so I can plan my future training session. I am a big planner. 

Thanks for the info please keep it coming.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

With 1 dog , if you use bumpers for most of your water work and dont let the core un-thaw , you can gets a lot of re-use out of it. 

In my experience (limited) once you get through FF , you can take the bird straight out of the freezer and use it, then return it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes u can thaw and refreeze birds. How long they last depends on the weather and how long they are out and being used. In the winter I usually take out of the freezer and leave in the garage late the night before use. In the summer I take out of the freezer when I get up.
In the winter they last a long time. In the summer not as long. Maybe a week or so. But I run multiple
dogs and the birds are out of the freezer about six hours or so.
With only one dog they should last longer.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Majja13 said:


> Ok so I am newbie here. I will be picking up my great little pup next week and have been going over some of the training material and it got me thinking. When introducing the dog to dead birds is it ok to use them and then just freeze them, and then thaw for another training session. IF this is the case how long can you use a bird.


Like others have said, you can thaw and freeze birds mutiple times. 
Training sessions at a young age are not as much about learning but more about exposure. Training sessions are not 20 minutes a day but more like 1-2 minutes, 3x's a day. Training at this age is all about fun and never about pressure...unless it's "outside potty" 
I would get your pup on birds as soon as a few days after you receive him. 8 weeks would not be to young. Show him the bird. Let him smell it. Maybe he can chase it a little and tease him with it. Get him excited about the bird. The drag it a few feet and let him find the trail and follow it with his nose. Not a formal thing but a play deal. Then progress at maybe 11-13 weeks on live birds. Small birds like a quail or pigeon. Then to live ducks on land at about 14-16 weeks. Just my opinion. Don


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Use and refreeze until you find the bird disgusting. Then use it a little longer.

For a puppy, birds are not really important. Introduce to pigeons or quail if you feel the need. As they age if you are concerned, zip tie a wing to a bumper to reintroduce feathers. During force fetch, I will use thawed, frozen & fresh killed birds of as many species as I hunt.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Use and refreeze until you find the bird disgusting. Then use it a little longer.
> 
> For a puppy, birds are not really important. Introduce to pigeons or quail if you feel the need. As they age if you are concerned, zip tie a wing to a bumper to reintroduce feathers. During force fetch, I will use thawed, frozen & fresh killed birds of as many species as I hunt.


Why would you think that birds are not really important for a puppy??


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

The received wisdom is to avoid training a young dog with skanky birds. If you find your pup is mishandling the bird, time to quit using it.

You can save it for later, when your dog is more mature and had good bird handling skills.

I find that the freeze-thaw cycle is really hard on the birds---they fall apart and become brittle faster. I try and just keep them really cold but not quite frozen.

They also get busted up faster when I throw them in the frozen state. 
If I find broken wings and sharp bones sticking out, into the trash they go. 

Otherwise I throw the nasty ones away when I have a good supply of fresh(er) (i.e. the duck freezer is full), if the maggots are thick upon them, or if my eyes start watering from the smell.


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## Quackwacker (Aug 16, 2011)

Untill you can see more maggots than feathers................................LOL


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

My pups see real birds.....very early.









*The Early Bird (link)*


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Golden Boy said:


> Why would you think that birds are not really important for a puppy??


Puppies typically play with the bird & can become possessive. Without a check cord it can become a game. Even while reeling in a puppy, they can get in a lot of chewing. It can be exponentially harder to ff a dog that has eaten a bird. 

I consider the introduction to birds very important. Just don't see much benefit to throwing birds often for a puppy. The risks outweigh the rewards. After ff almost all marks will be birds.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

The original poster was asking about freezing birds. I would assume the introduction to birds was over.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

The best way to use frozen ducks is to allow them to thaw overnight, use, hang & blow dry using a good sized fan, then freeze, thaw, etc. The ducks last longer, the feathers are less like the ducks have been frozen. It's a good process even if you haven't done water work.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Most people adhere to the "two-gag" rule for deciding when to throw birds away. Mark Land, not so much.

Just picking at you, Mark.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

RookieTrainer said:


> Most people adhere to the "two-gag" rule for deciding when to throw birds away. Mark Land, not so much.
> 
> Just picking at you, Mark.


I still use the two gag rule. Only problem is my gag reflex has been desensitized!


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Make sure they are fully thawed as a little frozen might cause them some holding problems. Also, make sure you entice with fun and chase. Do not be alarmed if the pup does not pick it up at first, they will learn to pick it up eventually. Continue play and chase and the excitement of the bird. I use mine 2-3 times, on water they do not last very long. If you loose feathers and start to see skin, toss them so that you do not encourage a meal. Not good if they get a taste of them. Also if guts are hanging, toss them out.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Puppies typically play with the bird & can become possessive. Without a check cord it can become a game. Even while reeling in a puppy, they can get in a lot of chewing. It can be exponentially harder to ff a dog that has eaten a bird.
> 
> I consider the introduction to birds very important. Just don't see much benefit to throwing birds often for a puppy. The risks outweigh the rewards. After ff almost all marks will be birds.


Well I think we should be telling the new trainer /puppy owner how to introduce birds to their pup. First off I use live clip winged pigeons. For young pups this age to unlock their prey drive. And I always have the pup on the check cord when they are this young so I can control where and what they go and do. The live birds are only given to the pup a few times and for short periods of time, this is done so as to keep the pup excited about birds. 
Later on in training birds are introduced depending on the program or training outline you're using. 
But live birds are at the upmost importance at an early age.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Golden Boy said:


> Well I think we should be telling the new trainer /puppy owner how to introduce birds to their pup. First off I use live clip winged pigeons. For young pups this age to unlock their prey drive. And I always have the pup on the check cord when they are this young so I can control where and what they go and do. The live birds are only given to the pup a few times and for short periods of time, this is done so as to keep the pup excited about birds.
> Later on in training birds are introduced depending on the program or training outline you're using.
> But live birds are at the upmost importance at an early age.


Not to be argumentative but I am guessing if he is freezing them, they are no longer alive. When I raised a litter the first introduction to birds was very early. Way before they were ready to go home. Picking up live wing locked pigeons before 6 weeks.

After a few introductions in a controlled environment I don't see the need. If the pup lacks or needs to build drive then repeated exposure to birds has lots of benefit. My problems have always been with the Whoa part of the equation, never the Go. 

After a pup is responsibly returning with a Here command & is not possessive of the bird then all marks will be either flyers or dead birds. After the demise of my bird freezer last month that may be an expensive proposition.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Not to be argumentative but I am guessing if he is freezing them, they are no longer alive. When I raised a litter the first introduction to birds was very early. Way before they were ready to go home. Picking up live wing locked pigeons before 6 weeks.
> 
> After a few introductions in a controlled environment I don't see the need. If the pup lacks or needs to build drive then repeated exposure to birds has lots of benefit. My problems have always been with the Whoa part of the equation, never the Go.
> 
> After a pup is responsibly returning with a Here command & is not possessive of the bird then all marks will be either flyers or dead birds. After the demise of my bird freezer last month that may be an expensive proposition.


Didn't take it as argumentative. Sounds pretty much like what I do for bird intro. 
Good Luck with the bird freezer, been there myself.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

To the OP: I sent you a PM with a video that may help. I don't know if the PM function is working right now though.

Evan


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## Majja13 (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks for all the info, I did get the video thanks Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Puppies typically play with the bird & can become possessive. Without a check cord it can become a game. Even while reeling in a puppy, they can get in a lot of chewing. It can be exponentially harder to ff a dog that has eaten a bird.
> 
> I consider the introduction to birds very important. Just don't see much benefit to throwing birds often for a puppy. The risks outweigh the rewards. After ff almost all marks will be birds.




I use frozen birds all the time with new puppies. To me it's not when or if but how. Right now I have an 8 week old puppy that gets a frozen teal daily for 2 or 3 retrieves. I encourage good habits right from the start. You certainly don't want a puppy to eat a bird. 
It depends on the puppy. The one I have now gets it and brings it right back so unless he starts showing a problem he is going to continue getting real birds. I don't let them play with a bird or get possessive. 
I am a firm believer that *ALL *habits both good and bad start early. If introduced early properly I find it much easier to deal with the dog when he is older and going into FF. I have trained a few that had no bird intro when young and it was much tougher to teach them good habits with birds. I prefer to start a 7 week old puppy with a solid frozen teal, cant do much chewing or eating on that. I do try and avoid a live fresh warm bird like a pigeon, now there is where some bad habits can start. Not that I don't do it cuz it is really fun to watch a little pup go nuts chasing a live pigeon but depending on the pup it is once or twice and done. If a pup is a little shy about a live bird then I will expose it till it gets over that. You certainly don't want a fresh dead one with an open wound or blood on it. Pretty simple really. Introduce them early and encourage good habits and discourage bad ones. So again don't ask if or when but how.
As for the original question and older dogs I pretty much do as Wayne mentioned. I have birds in the freezer that I have used many many times. With one dog you could make 6 or 7 birds last all year just don't throw them in the water.


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