# FT judging-training during trial



## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

How do you feel about this. Running a WB dog takes a line away from the water, tail tucked and head down, refuses to get in water after 4-5 casts continues this behavior and eventually completes the blind after about 15 minutes in a WB that was taking 3-5 minutes per dog. I understand the handler’s desire not to let the dog win the situation but is this the time or place to train your dog, notwithstanding weather or time constraints? Are you a mean judge if you pick up the dog or are you a wimp for standing there watching something that should be handled elsewhere ?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I would have asked the handler to pick the dog up. There was no way that the dog could advance to the last series after several consecutive cast refusals.

Unfortunately, the dog is in for a world of hurt on Monday. Unfortunately, the dog has been in a world of hurt in the past. Unfortunately, there would be nothing I could do to change that.

Fortunately, we see very few dogs like that at trials. -Paul


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Another way of looking at it, by not picking up the dog after multiple cast refusals the handler allowed the dog to win.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Another way of looking at it, by not picking up the dog after multiple cast refusals the handler allowed the dog to win.


​I would never look at it as you propose. Never.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Another way of looking at it, by not picking up the dog after multiple cast refusals the handler allowed the dog to win.


They obviously didn't want to get in the water. You just allowed the dog to win if you pick them up. And I would very likely allow the handler to try to finish the blind if time is not a factor.


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

Ken

For the situation you describe, if the dog is refusing to get in the water I can see that actually speeding up a water blind, not adding a disproportionate amount of time. Also, most handlers will pick a dog up if the refusals pile up as described. That said, since judging has a fair degree of subjectivity and I don't see asking someone to or not to pick up their dog as mean or wimpy. I would tend to give a new participant or amateur more latitude to complete the blind if they desired, but would not allow that to influence my decision to call the dog back. At some point though, enough is enough and I would ask the handler to pick up the dog. For many of us, it's a kick in the gut when our dogs don't do well and I try to be cognizant of that when I judge and interacting with handlers.

Rip


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

rboudet said:


> They obviously didn't want to get in the water.


The water is far from the issue based on the description. Paul read it right - dog doesn't trust handler, probably due to ill timed, harsh or otherwise confusing correction  Damned shame for the dog.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

If we have time, keep handling if you want to. Some dogs learn that if they just don't do it, you will pick them up at a trial. Use the time to review your sheets, use the bathroom, get a drink, stretch your legs....whatever. And you are not a "wimp" for allowing it, you are a knowledgeable dog trainer in addition to being a judge.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Kyle B said:


> If we have time, keep handling if you want to. Some dogs learn that if they just don't do it, you will pick them up at a trial. Use the time to review your sheets, use the bathroom, get a drink, stretch your legs....whatever. And you are not a "wimp" for allowing it, you are a knowledgeable dog trainer in addition to being a judge.



I'm with Kyle and RBoudet on this


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

I would blame the owner for entering the dog in that stake in the 1st place!

In 1967 @ the McCall , ID NAFC a dog took 5 separate handles to get into the water. 
It was not pretty but the dog did not look intimidated. 1 of the judges wanted to drop 
the dog & made a public announcement to that to the assembled spectators at the 
next series. 

That dog was eventually declared winner & NAFC


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Did the training help him the next year ;-)?


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Another way of looking at it, by not picking up the dog after multiple cast refusals the handler allowed the dog to win.


I think you are 180 degrees wrong on this statement. Picking up the dog when he is reluctant to do what is asked is exactly playing into the dogs hand. Making the dog do the task in the environment he is in makes the handler the Alpha member of the team and the handler wins. Rewarding non compliant behavior is never a good thing. If the judge team had asked for the dog to be picked up, then it should have happened but not sooner under the stated circumstances.
MP


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Barton said:


> Are you a mean judge if you pick up the dog or are you a wimp for standing there watching something that should be handled elsewhere ?


After 4-5 cast refusal to get in the water I would expect an all-age handler to know they are out and if they don't pick-up on their own I'll tell them. In a recent Q my co-judge and I decided and told handlers at the time of the test dog that if the dog was not in water at a certain point they would be told to pick-up.

This is not the time or place to train or try to assert authority.

Tim


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Mike Perry said:


> I think you are 180 degrees wrong on this statement. Picking up the dog when he is reluctant to do what is asked is exactly playing into the dogs hand. Making the dog do the task in the environment he is in makes the handler the Alpha member of the team and the handler wins. Rewarding non compliant behavior is never a good thing. If the judge team had asked for the dog to be picked up, then it should have happened but not sooner under the stated circumstances.
> MP


Maybe so but even if the judges allow it, how many times do you try to cast when the dog is refusing and you have no way to correct?


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Maybe so but even if the judges allow it, how many times do you try to cast when the dog is refusing and you have no way to correct?


Until the dog gets it right.
It's called attrition.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Barton said:


> How do you feel about this. Running a WB dog takes a line away from the water, tail tucked and head down, refuses to get in water after 4-5 casts continues this behavior and eventually completes the blind after about 15 minutes in a WB that was taking 3-5 minutes per dog. I understand the handler’s desire not to let the dog win the situation but is this the time or place to train your dog, notwithstanding weather or time constraints? Are you a mean judge if you pick up the dog or are you a wimp for standing there watching something that should be handled elsewhere ?


As a judge one of your responsibilities is to give every handler a fair chance. If you take precious minutes to allow a failure to complete a test you might be depriving other contestants of their time. How many failures should you allow to waste time to the detriment of the other contestants and timely conduct of the stake. Judges responsibilities do not include allowing handlers to work on their training issues. I fail to comprehend what benefit a dog with an obvious serious water problem would derive from doing a water blind by land and under protest (by the dog).


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ken Barton said:


> How do you feel about this. Running a WB dog takes a line away from the water, tail tucked and head down, refuses to get in water after 4-5 casts continues this behavior and eventually completes the blind after about 15 minutes in a WB that was taking 3-5 minutes per dog. I understand the handler’s desire not to let the dog win the situation but is this the time or place to train your dog, notwithstanding weather or time constraints? Are you a mean judge if you pick up the dog or are you a wimp for standing there watching something that should be handled elsewhere ?





Personally I would want to let the dog know they have to do as told and would want to win that battle. On the other hand I WOULD NOT allow that to go on for 15 minutes whether it was me running the dog or judging the stake. That is just waaaay to long to run a water blind. I would use it as a training situation but not at the expense of fellow handlers or the judges. Sounds to me like the dog was not ready to run blinds like that. I would have picked him up.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

EdA said:


> As a judge one of your responsibilities is to give every handler a fair chance. If you take precious minutes to allow a failure to complete a test you might be depriving other contestants of their time. How many failures should you allow to waste time to the detriment of the other contestants and timely conduct of the stake. Judges responsibilities do not include allowing handlers to work on their training issues. I fail to comprehend what benefit a dog with an obvious serious water problem would derive from doing a water blind by land and under protest (by the dog).


I agree. You owe it to the other handlers to have the dog picked up. As a handler, I would pick up and use the opportunity to show the dog my displeasure with his performance. Mine don't have water problems, but they will give me the paw now and then at a trial.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

When the dog is non-compliant on a blind they should be denied that which they want. On a mark, they should have to face and get that which they don't (quick handle and/or quick gunner help).


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

EdA said:


> I fail to comprehend what benefit a dog with an obvious serious water problem would derive from doing a water blind by land and under protest (by the dog).


I don't either.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> ​I would never look at it as you propose. Never.





rboudet said:


> They obviously didn't want to get in the water. You just allowed the dog to win if you pick them up. And I would very likely allow the handler to try to finish the blind if time is not a factor.





Mike Perry said:


> Until the dog gets it right.
> It's called attrition.


If any of you had a dog with such serious water issues as the OP described, would you enter a trail to work on it?
I bet not.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> If any of you had a dog with such serious water issues as the OP described, would you enter a trail to work on it?
> I bet not.



perhaps the dog did not have such a 'big' problem with water blinds in the week(s) leading up to the trial (although I am certain there was some sort of issue to result in that type of behavior at a trial). Maybe a day or two before the trial, the handler erroneously pressured the dog for an infraction. Maybe he hoped the excitement of the trial would help the dog overcome the training issue.

Now that I know what I know - at least from the advice given to me after Smarty's derby - if I happen to run another trial, and a judge allows me the leeway to try to get my dog to a mark or a blind... I'm going to take it.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Tobias said:


> perhaps the dog did not have such a 'big' problem with water blinds in the week(s) leading up to the tria


Obviously we don't know for sure.
Based on the description we have I think the safe bet is this dog had some serious water issues going in.
"_Running a WB dog takes a line away from the water, tail tucked and head down, refuses to get in water after 4-5 casts continues this behavior and eventually completes the blind after about 15 minutes in a WB that was taking 3-5 minutes per dog._"


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> If any of you had a dog with such serious water issues as the OP described, would you enter a trail to work on it?
> I bet not.



Don't go to Las Vegas and place that bet

I have run plenty of dogs over the years that for one reason or another gave me the finger on the water blind. 

Would I enter a dog that I knew was going to give me the finger? No.

But, things happen and you deal with them. 

Ted


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> drunkenpoacher said:
> 
> 
> > Another way of looking at it, by not picking up the dog after multiple cast refusals the handler allowed the dog to win.
> ...


I do not look at this situation as "winning" or "losing" 

I do look at it as allowing the dog to repeatedly not comply with a command with no consequence. 

I would rather pick up the dog and deal with it in training vs allowing the dog to continually disobey.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Consider the dog... if you pick him up.. what do you gain (from a training perspective)? What does he gain?


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Tobias said:


> Consider the dog... if you pick him up.. what do you gain (from a training perspective)?


That's the point. Atrial is not the place to train, especially if it takes an excessive amount of time as the OP describes. 
You pick him up in the name of sportsmanship, and out of respect for those waiting to run.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> Now that I know what I know - at least from the advice given to me after Smarty's derby - if I happen to run another trial, and a judge allows me the leeway to try to get my dog to a mark or a blind... I'm going to take it.


Now that You know what you have gained from that experience - In future participation you can now practice it ? 
The way I see it (always) "In Training ,it is never about getting the blind or the mark,it's about how you get the blind or the mark"
In Competition ...You have less worries about how the dog is going to get the blind or the mark.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> Now that You know what you have gained from that experience - In future participation you can now practice it ?
> The way I see it (always) "In Training ,it is never about getting the blind or the mark,it's about how you get the blind or the mark"
> In Competition ...You have less worries about how the dog is going to get the blind or the mark.


Yes.... for certain. There would be a few exceptions - I figure most here would know I was not referring to behaviors on the dog's part that I would probably not allow the dog to pick up a mark - excessive creeping, excessive noise, bad manners going to the line and at the line.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> That's the point. Atrial is not the place to train, especially if it takes an excessive amount of time as the OP describes.
> You pick him up in the name of sportsmanship, and out of respect for those waiting to run.



Let's say there are only 18 dogs running a Q - - the judges have lots of time - there are 12 dogs running the water blind.... I would think the judges would realize at what point they would have told the handler to pick up the dog.. (Even with 20-30 dogs running the water blind). If I was a handler, I would let them make that call - knowing full well the other handlers may be ticked off or gossiping in the gallery about why the judges are allowing this 'unwelcome' delay... .... 

A dog running a blind - as ugly as it might be - wins the battle you pick him up? do you run the risk of the dog repeating that behavior in the future? ... it might not be pretty, but he knows he still had to do it if you hack him to the end.


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## DavidC (Feb 2, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Mark Littlejohn said:
> 
> 
> > That's the point. Atrial is not the place to train, especially if it takes an excessive amount of time as the OP describes.
> ...


As a judge, you never have "lots of time." One thing you can't get back is lost time, due to the situation described in this discussion. You still have another series to run. Heck, you may still have the Derby to judge. You may need those minutes later to fairly and efficiently finish judging your trial.

If both judges have seen enough to eliminate your dog, you should be kindly and respectfully requested to "pick up." When I have seen enough as a handler, I may sometimes do it earlier.

Bottom line is that a trial is not a place to train, and good sportsmanship and efficiency would dictate that "lost time" be minimized due to the diligence of all involved.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> A dog running a blind - as ugly as it might be - wins the battle you pick him up? do you run the risk of the dog repeating that behavior in the future? ... it might not be pretty, but he knows he still had to do it if you hack him to the end.


If there was a battle you picked the wrong winner, the dog has just learned that it is permissible to do a water blind by land on the weekend so the dog not the handler wins.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Mark Littlejohn said:
> 
> 
> > That's the point. Atrial is not the place to train, especially if it takes an excessive amount of time as the OP describes.
> ...



I believe there is just as great a risk of that repeated behavior by allowing the dog to continually give cast refusals. After a few pick up the dog...


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Consider the dog... if you pick him up.. what do you gain (from a training perspective)? What does he gain?





Well here's my thoughts and an example from the last open I ran in Sept.
Poison bird water blind. Small pond with a bend in it and a point about 50 or 60 yds from the line. Poison bird on the point. My dog is usually pretty controllable and does poison birds well. Well not that day, he was cranked and wanted that poison bird bad. Kicked him off and he went straight for the poison bird. Stopped him before he hit the water and cast him off. He blew me off and went straight for the bird again. Stopped again cast him off and he completely over cast the other direction and was going around the water. Two more cast to attempt to get him back on line with no success. I knew he was done so I picked him up. 
Could I have gotten the blind? Sure you bet but he had a complete lack of focus with very little attention on me and I didn't have much control over him so I was not going to let that continue. So what was gained? Well like I said he was cranked. High on quack and out of control. When I called him in it completely shut him down and I gained control. By picking him up he knew his behavior was unacceptable. Picking him up was a big correction to him every bit as much of a correction as using the collar in training. He did not get what he wanted.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Steve Shaver said:


> Well here's my thoughts and an example from the last open I ran in Sept.
> Poison bird water blind. Small pond with a bend in it and a point about 50 or 60 yds from the line. Poison bird on the point. My dog is usually pretty controllable and does poison birds well. Well not that day, he was cranked and wanted that poison bird bad. Kicked him off and he went straight for the poison bird. Stopped him before he hit the water and cast him off. He blew me off and went straight for the bird again. Stopped again cast him off and he completely over cast the other direction and was going around the water. Two more cast to attempt to get him back on line with no success. I knew he was done so I picked him up.
> Could I have gotten the blind? Sure you bet but he had a complete lack of focus with very little attention on me and I didn't have much control over him so I was not going to let that continue. So what was gained? Well like I said he was cranked. High on quack and out of control. When I called him in it completely shut him down and I gained control. By picking him up he knew his behavior was unacceptable. Picking him up was a big correction to him every bit as much of a correction as using the collar in training. He did not get what he wanted.


what if you had gotten the blind... but not allowed him to pick up the PB (was it a flyer?)


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Tobias said:


> what if you had gotten the blind... but not allowed him to pick up the PB (was it a flyer?)





No not a flyer. I don't see that getting the blind would have accomplished much. He didn't get either one so I think that was more effective. Keep in mind I know this dog and picking him up in this situation was the best thing for him as well as me and everyone else involved. Bottom line is that he was out of control and gaining that control was most important. If that would happen in training I would pick him up with a correction to get his attention and start over and I guarantee he would have done well.
Also this is a 6 year old dog that knows better. A 2 or 3 yr old qual dog may be a different story but then I have never seen a poison bird in a qual. In training I would hack a qual dog to that blind but not my open dog. I might ad that after going out on that water blind I came back and ran him as test dog in the 4th and he did a very nice job.:roll: Had he done well on that water blind he very well may have finished in the color. Also when running as test dog he was much more attentive to me than usual going to the line and very cooperative working with me to pick up the marks and two of those marks went right past where that poison bird was


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> If there was a battle you picked the wrong winner, the dog has just learned that it is permissible to do a water blind by land on the weekend so the dog not the handler wins.



I guess that part of the OP was unclear to me... there was indication of cast refusals... and water avoidance... but did the dog get wet?

If the dog gets picked up, doesn't he win also? Does he win no matter which way the ball rolls?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Steve Shaver said:


> No not a flyer. I don't see that getting the blind would have accomplished much. He didn't get either one so I think that was more effective. Keep in mind I know this dog and picking him up in this situation was the best thing for him as well as me and everyone else involved. Bottom line is that he was out of control and gaining that control was most important. If that would happen in training I would pick him up with a correction to get his attention and start over and I guarantee he would have done well.
> Also this is a 6 year old dog that knows better. A 2 or 3 yr old qual dog may be a different story but then I have never seen a poison bird in a qual. In training I would hack a qual dog to that blind but not my open dog. I might ad that after going out on that water blind I came back and ran him as test dog in the 4th and he did a very nice job.:roll: Had he done well on that water blind he very well may have finished in the color. Also when running as test dog he was much more attentive to me than usual going to the line and very cooperative working with me to pick up the marks and two of those marks went right past where that poison bird was


yes - I can see that. It probably depends greatly upon the dog and situation.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

For my dog, picking him up (of which I have done more times than I would like to admit...) isn't a win for him. Getting to retrieve a bird is all he really wants in life. Picking him up denies that gratification.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> If the dog gets picked up, doesn't he win also? Does he win no matter which way the ball rolls?


If the dog prefers being picked up over doing what he was born to do, retrieve, then it might be time to find a new dog.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

If the water is cold... and a dog is not fond of the cold... but runs great blinds in more 'comfortable' conditions?


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

EdA said:


> If the dog prefers being picked up over doing what he was born to do, retrieve, then it might be time to find a new dog.


Love this comment, says a lot in very few words.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

NateB said:


> Love this comment, says a lot in very few words.


I agree.. but there is no accounting for the training (as in the description given in the OP) .. you can take the bird out of the dog.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I guess to me it would depend on what stake it is in. If it's a Qual; I'd be more lenient, as usually there are several new handlers running just for the experience. Also usually time isn't an issue. They've paid their money might as well let them get the experience, also time for a judge to eat a sandwich, reorganize books etc. Upper stakes a handler would most likely pick up their dog; can't see overly many handlers wanting to take the time to train; when they are done. When they could just go off campus and fix it (as a lot of them seem to do inbtw series). . 

I would postulate your more likely to see this in HT and more likely to see it with new handlers. That said I will admit to doing it at the latest hunt test I ran, it was cold; big male didn't want to get his fluffies wet . I knew I was out, but this boy knew we were at a test and expected I'd pick him up. So I asked the judge if I could finish, time wasn't a concern, one judge actually welcomed the break. Thus I re-heeled the dog and made that SOB get in the water. He was shocked that I could make him do it at a test. You can bet we'll be training on it, but to me it was worth the entry fee just to get that water blind. That said it wasn't 15mins. Maybe 4, and was less time than it would've taken to find a pick-up dog .


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

EdA said:


> If the dog prefers being picked up over doing what he was born to do, retrieve, then it might be time to find a new dog.


Have one like this. And I did! (But I sill have the old guy because it was me not him that wanted to run trials, and I love him anyway!)


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

2tall said:


> EdA said:
> 
> 
> > If the dog prefers being picked up over doing what he was born to do, retrieve, then it might be time to find a new dog.
> ...


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I guess to me it would depend on what stake it is in. If it's a Qual; I'd be more lenient, as usually there are several new handlers running just for the experience. Also usually time isn't an issue. They've paid their money might as well let them get the experience, also time for a judge to eat a sandwich, reorganize books etc. Upper stakes a handler would most likely pick up their dog; can't see overly many handlers wanting to take the time to train; when they are done. When they could just go off campus and fix it (as a lot of them seem to do inbtw series). .
> 
> I would postulate your more likely to see this in HT and more likely to see it with new handlers. That said I will admit to doing it at the latest hunt test I ran, it was cold; big male didn't want to get his fluffies wet . I knew I was out, but this boy knew we were at a test and expected I'd pick him up. So I asked the judge if I could finish, time wasn't a concern, one judge actually welcomed the break. Thus I re-heeled the dog and made that SOB get in the water. He was shocked that I could make him do it at a test. You can bet we'll be training on it, but to me it was worth the entry fee just to get that water blind. That said it wasn't 15mins. Maybe 4, and was less time than it would've taken to find a pick-up dog .


Why would there be a pick-up dog on a blind may I ask?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

EdA said:


> If the dog prefers being picked up over doing what he was born to do, retrieve, then it might be time to find a new dog.






Could not agree more. Never had a dog that I would compete with prefer to be picked up.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> what if you had gotten the blind... but not allowed him to pick up the PB (was it a flyer?)


Add "Doesn't have a clue what a poison bird means"
to the list of things you have no clue about...…..
yet still feel compelled to share your "wisdom" about


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

At least some people are awake among this gibberish that has to be shared.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> Add "Doesn't have a clue what a poison bird means"
> to the list of things you have no clue about...…..
> yet still feel compelled to share your "wisdom" about


Merry Christmas Tigerfan. I hope you have a great time with your family.
Gosh... you know, I don't really know what a poison bird is, come to think of it.... 

Is it a bird with poison in it? That would really take care of those damn dogs who don't listen and won't take a cast to where they are being told to go.

Is it thrown by the wicked witch of the north? no, wait... South? no.... come to think of it, I think East.... Then again, the wicked witch from the west would probably be a liberal puke... so I bet the poison bird is poisoned and thrown by the wicked witch of the West.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Add "Doesn't have a clue what a poison bird means"
> to the list of things you have no clue about...…..
> yet still feel compelled to share your "wisdom" about





What a nice post:roll:


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Steve Shaver said:


> What a nice post:roll:


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I thought it had a jovial ring to it? LOL Like the music from 'Jingle Bells' (not the batman version though, the real one!)


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

tigerfan said:


> Add "Doesn't have a clue what a poison bird means"
> to the list of things you have no clue about...…..
> yet still feel compelled to share your "wisdom" about


To anyone new to retriever training and this forum, don't let posts like this dissuade you from entering hunt tests or field trials. The vast majority of the people at events are courteous, friendly and interesting. There may be one or two that are not but they will be off in the distance, alone and muttering to themselves.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

In hunt tests the poison bird is normally picked up by the dog after running the blind.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Jerry S. said:


> Why would there be a pick-up dog on a blind may I ask?


They were planting it by having the bird boy throw it, over tulley's into a pocket.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

fishduck said:


> In hunt tests the poison bird is normally picked up by the dog after running the blind.


I believe what you are describing is a diversion bird; not a poison bird


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## RBD (Nov 11, 2014)

tigerfan said:


> I believe what you are describing is a diversion bird; not a poison bird


In the trials I have run the poison bird is picked up 50% of the time. Happens all the time, it is in no way an invalid assumption that the poison bird would be picked up after completing the blind.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

tigerfan said:


> I believe what you are describing is a diversion bird; not a poison bird


Been called a poison bird around here as long as I have been running tests. May be a difference in terminology in hunt tests vs field trials.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Diversions are run often in hunt tests and often picked up, but not scored as a mark. Poison birds are run in field trials, often with blinds, and not usually picked up but could be. That's my understanding.



> Been called a poison bird around here as long as I have been running tests. May be a difference in terminology in hunt tests vs field trials.


Diversion was always in the Hunt Test rulebook and described the judging


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> Diversions are run often in hunt tests and often picked up, but not scored as a mark. Poison birds are run in field trials, often with blinds, and not usually picked up but could be. That's my understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I only run FT and call it a delayed mark if it is picked up after the blind and scored as a mark, and a poison bird if it is not picked up. The rule book calls them both diversion birds of which there can be no more than two.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Diversions are run often in hunt tests and often picked up, but not scored as a mark. Poison birds are run in field trials, often with blinds, and not usually picked up but could be. That's my understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are both poison birds and diversion birds in HTs. 

A poison bird would be a mark that is thrown but not picked up until a blind is ran . Many times the line to the blind may be close to the mark and other times it's not. 

A diversion bird would be a bird that is typically thrown on the way back from a mark or blind. 

Im most cases both diversions and poison birds are picked up at HTs.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> There are both poison birds and diversion birds in HTs.
> 
> A poison bird would be a mark that is thrown but not picked up until a blind is ran . Many times the line to the blind may be close to the mark and other times it's not.
> 
> ...



The above is correct..

Below is what the AKC HT rule book states..

Page 27,section 25..
Here is what the AKC rule book defines as a diversion bird..
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve either after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is returning from the blind retrieve; however, diversion birds shall only appear on marks when the dog is returning from a retrieve. 
27
Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or thrown when the working dog is in a location that it should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air and as it falls.

I do not think however that the term "Poison" bird is used in the HT rule book..

I have run AKC HT where a flyer is shot in front of the dog,but, before you could pick up that flyer bird,you were required to run a Blind retrieve… I have always called this a Poison bird Blind... 

The flyer IS/ WAS judged as a Mark..


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

MooseGooser said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > There are both poison birds and diversion birds in HTs.
> ...


It may not be however they will throw a mark and then have you no off of it and run a blind. They may throw a triple then have you run a blind.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> It may not be however they will throw a mark and then have you know off of it and run a blind. They may throw a triple then have you run a blind.


I had to add/edit to my original post you quoted... Tried a Long response on Phone,,, didn't work well...


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

MooseGooser said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > It may not be however they will throw a mark and then have you know off of it and run a blind. They may throw a triple then have you run a blind.
> ...


You got to it before I could change my "know" to "no"...lol!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> It may not be however they will throw a mark and then have you no off of it and run a blind. They may throw a triple then have you run a blind.


 Not to side track...…

But,,, 

If AKC judges can not designate order of pick up in a marking test,, How can this be a legal test? 

The scenario I talked about. You came to the line, a flyer was thrown and shot for the dog. you had "No" off that bird, to run a blind first.. when the dog came back from retrieving the blind, you turned 90 degrees away from where the flyer laid,, and a double was thrown. You picked up the double,, then you had to pick up that flyer.. all Marks were judged as such.. and IMHO,, a designated order of pick up was demanded..

We were dropped..I had to handle on the flyer.. Handles were sloppy..


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Diversion birds are commonly called poison birds in tests and trials and often must be picked up after a successful blind. It's understandable that someone heading home after the first series would be unaware. 

_AKC Field Trials One Judges Perspective Prepared by: Mitch Patterson with John Cavanaugh
BLIND PRINCIPALS/DESIGN__
•Make hazards obvious reference the true line 
•Dog visible if on line (also for shorter/senior handlers) 
•Handler visible to dog: (glare off water? sun, shadow)
•Avoid artificial ‘commandments’: (ie: must be left of bush, on point, etc.) Maybe use “We are judging your work from the true line” 
•Judge from the true line to the blind and avoid moving to see dog. 
•Set up blind so stylish dogs are not disadvantaged (avoid ticky-tac blinds) 
•Avoid foot path buildup to blind by planter 
•Place planter to make test fair for every dog (down wind, out of site)
•Poison bird is a “mark” (guns retired or left out) (bird picked up or not) 
•Avoid path buildup and drag back (maybe move pickup line.)
•Natural markers for bird placement. (avoid using fresh paint) 
•Whistle audible throughout blind, especially in hazards (ie: brush, running water, corn, etc)
•Define pick-up area. •Define handler movement/restrictions and how to enforce “Get back in place”
•System to assure blind has been planted *Note in holding blind: “Did we plant your blind?”
•Set up blind to have three parts, beginning/middle/end. Make initial line difficult to get, have challenging, jeopardizing hazards.
_


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Not to side track...…
> 
> But,,,
> 
> ...


I don't know how this discussion got to poison birds and diversions from the start where a dog did not want to run a water blind. Typical of this site and it's waning relevance over the last few years where contributors with massive post counts have minimal experience in training or at the line in tests or trials. 
But to your post, down here in the south, your scenario has been somewhat common the last few years. 2 years ago in our test season, "interrupted triples" seemed to be the set up du jour. 
The Master rules state that triples must be thrown in 2 of the 3 series in the test. A triple is defined pretty much that all 3 marks be presented without interruption. That means the dog sees all 3 marks before any other factor in introduced to the test. A walk up can be one of the marks. In your scenario, that is not a triple mark, but the flyer is a poison bird. If you pick it up before the blind, you ate the poison and your out. 
To be a legal test, in the other 2 series, a true triple must be thrown in each. 
After the double, it is still considered a mark and is judged as such. From your post, it appears you agree that you were dropped for trainability from sloppy handles. 


For semantics, most of the experienced handlers that I know consider a diversion a bird that the dog sees on the way back from a mark or blind, and a poison bird on the way out to a mark or blind. A diversion bird can be considered poison also, because if the dog picks it up on a switch coming back from a mark or successful blind, it ate the poison again and is out.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> If AKC judges can not designate order of pick up in a marking test,, How can this be a legal test?



Again, you elect to start a discussion on the Rules - without referring to them. 

*WHAT DOES THE RULE BOOK SAY?*

*On marked retrieves the order in which birds are to be retrieved shall not be specified by the Judges. The handler is free to select the order in which he directs his dog to retrieve the birds provided that such selection should be accomplished quietly and promptly.*

The key language is "on marked retrieves." Thus, in a test with multiple marks, the judges cannot say you must pickup the birds in this sequence. 

If you have an interrupted double - say shoot 2 birds - run blind before retrieving marks. The judges are telling you to run a blind before the marks. They are not telling you the order of pickup on marked retrieves.

If you have an interrupted double - say shoot 2 birds- pickup a mark before running the blind, then pickup second mark, the judges cannot tell you which bird to pickup before running the blind. That would be a violation of the Rule. 

Ted


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

What is it called when they throw a mark that the dog can see while out in the field running a blind? 

"Poisversion"


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> I don't know how this discussion got to poison birds and diversions from the start where a dog did not want to run a water blind. Typical of this site and it's waning relevance over the last few years where contributors with massive post counts have minimal experience in training or at the line in tests or trials.
> But to your post, down here in the south, your scenario has been somewhat common the last few years. 2 years ago in our test season, "interrupted triples" seemed to be the set up du jour.
> The Master rules state that triples must be thrown in 2 of the 3 series in the test. A triple is defined pretty much that all 3 marks be presented without interruption. That means the dog sees all 3 marks before any other factor in introduced to the test. A walk up can be one of the marks. In your scenario, that is not a triple mark, but the flyer is a poison bird. If you pick it up before the blind, you ate the poison and your out.
> To be a legal test, in the other 2 series, a true triple must be thrown in each.
> ...


I understand the rules...( Note the smiling faces! It was a failed attempt at humor))... At that test I described, I knew I could have picked up the MARKS in any order I wanted. I chose to leave the flyer as the last bird for my dog to pick up.. It didn't work out well,,She didn't remember where the flyer fell..and to be fair to her neither did I... She went out and hunted hard in the area,, but then made a decision to go back to the blind, I immediately stopped her,,,but then I had to guess where the bird was,, and my handles were sloppy.. I felt the Judges hand on my shoulder,, and heard the "Im sorry",,and as I called her in,,she picked up the flyer along the way..  My fault..... She had done everything else perfectly! … Neither of us had any memory...


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