# American vs. British labs



## Joel Thorstad (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm curious about everyone's experience with british labs. They get talked up a lot by their owners. Kennels advertise that, they are perfect house pets, extremely calm, but when its time to hunt, they turn on the afterburners... Is this standard of british dogs? What is your experience/preferance in the American vs. British subject?


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## lynette (Jun 26, 2005)

Oh dear, you're going to open a can of worms here.. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy this....



Aussie bred Labs regardless


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

In the first place, British dogs talk funny!!!

That's enough for me.

Jerry


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

I personally think a good infusion of British blood is just what these line bred, knot headed, runaway American field dogs need. Why just think of it, no more force fetch, no need to teach line manners, no hyperactive dog wanting to go do something. My idea of the perfect companion.


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

British labs have jacked up teeth, but other than that, they're shagadelic!

Might be worth using the search function....save a few folks carpal tunnel syndrome and keep their blood pressure low...


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

I can screw up the best bred Labs, regardless of their country.

It's all in the trainer's hands in my opinion.

Jerry


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

here we go......


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> they are perfect house pets, extremely calm, but when its time to hunt, they turn on the afterburners...


There are many well-bred American Labs that do this also-you just have to do your homework. Simply, British Labs were bred for a different type of hunting than we do here. Make sure you check for the proper health clearances including PRA.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I think the question, as phrased, presupposes a certain answer.

All labs are "British" since that is where the breed developed. 

With either "British" or "American" dogs, it really amounts to:

1) Did you buy a good, titled, proven pedigree?

2) How did you train the dog?

My present dog is "British," running Finished in HRC, finishing up her SR in AKC, and has picked up over 500 ducks in the field this year, will probably hit 700 for the season, and is hotter than any American lab I have owned. I am NOT convinced that this is a typical level of drive from the several dozen "British" dogs I have been around from other breeders. That is why you search for a good, titled, proven pedigree. Not sure if I have the skills to get her to master, but I am gonna try. Getting her off the bank on the return has been a "challange." These days, everyone and thier mother's brother in Mississippi has popped up breeding "British Dogs" with no titles. I do not think a dog should be bred just 'cause great grandad had a title. Caveat Emptor. Do the research, and you can get a fine animal. Same with American line dogs, same with life.


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## TimMTP (Mar 27, 2007)

Very good answers on this thread so far. I breed British myself but as others have said, do your research. Check pedigrees and clearances. And if all possible, see the parents and see if their disposition and demeaner are what you are looking for. All of this applies whether you're buying American or British. Make sure the dog was bred for the purpose you want it for.


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

GREAT lookin' hound WME. Looks like he's got a bit of get-up-n-go! Damn shame she has to work so hard for her kibble - bet she hates seeing the gun case come out, eh?


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Thank you! The silly dog knows what a gun is, thats for sure! I hate it when you miss and they tilt their head back up at you and give you "The Look."


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

I think the infussion of British Lab blood into the Labardoodle breed is just what's needed.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

That might produce the dreaded "british silver labradoodle." I am not sure the world is ready....


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## Joel Thorstad (Nov 10, 2007)

Ha ha, interesting and well put responses so far folks...just so you know, I'm not in the market for a new dog right now. I was having this discussion with my younger sister, and since I know some people who wont ever buy another american lab and some people who wont own a british one, I figured this would be an interesting topic...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Depends on if they have gay tail....

/paul


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

This topic comes up from time to time, and it's always the same deal. I could put up pictures of 50 dog's and you would never be able to pick out 25 that were american bred dog's from british. "Yes" there are some houndish american bred dog's and some real block heads too, but to geralize that british are this or that, or that american are this or that is crap and is nothing but pue salesmanship. Just go through any "gun dog" magazine and you will find terms like "elite", "gentlemans gun dog", "superior" etc.. thrown around to describe a british lab. Is it better or wrose, not usually, just marketing of a product, it's just a way of selling something "special" to someone who does'nt know better, and there are many who bite! Do your homework and buy a dog british or american from a reputable breeder who has the kinds of dog's you like, with the temperment that you like, and the look that you like, with a written health guarruntee and I'll bet your dog will turn out like that! If you want a dog to compete at the highest level of FT's then look at the dog's who can, but I will bet that the "elite, "superior" marketed dog's are not one of them.


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## Joel Thorstad (Nov 10, 2007)

Did any of my fellow Minnesotans catch the broadcast special on American vs British labs. My sister called me to tell me she had seen this on local tv where a British kennel owner was interviewed and talked about the superiority of the British line over American bred labs...I dont bite...As previously stated, I believe every dog is individual. Misty Marsh, I'm on the same page as you believing that this is mostly salesmanship. Not to knock british lines at all, the few I've seen have been great dogs!


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

I prefer my in shape "American" fire breather lab -- lol

I've heard good things about both American and British. Actually I think a better discussion would be Show vs. Field -- In that case, IMO give me a field lab anyday.

Were they not originated from Newfoundland in Canada ? (not really British)


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> . . .but to generalize that British are this or that, or that American are this or that is crap and is nothing but *pure salesmanship.* Just go through any "gun dog" magazine and you will find terms like "elite", "gentleman's gun dog", "superior" etc.. thrown around to describe a British lab. Is it better or worse, not usually, *just marketing* of a product, it's just a way of selling something "special" *to someone who doesn't know better*


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Joel Thorstad said:


> Did any of my fellow Minnesotans catch the broadcast special on American vs British labs. My sister called me to tell me she had seen this on local tv where a British kennel owner was interviewed and talked about the superiority of the British line over American bred labs...


That would likely be this loquacious gent: http://www.britishlabradors.com/aboutuswhoshoula.html
Just plan on waiting for Queen Victoria's bicentennial to roll around before he gets around to telling which dogs "certainly we have bred ... that have competed and won in field trials."

MG


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

If you want a great gun dog, and a great home companion, do your research - and then get a 'Chessie'


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

crackerd said:


> That would likely be this loquacious gent: http://www.britishlabradors.com/aboutuswhoshoula.html
> Just plan on waiting for Queen Victoria's bicentennial to roll around before he gets around to telling which dogs "certainly we have bred ... that have competed and won in field trials."
> 
> MG


If it bugs you, why not call and ask him? Found Anderson surprisingly candid when I interviewed him (about a very different subject) some years ago.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

My first lab was a descendant of Super Chief, he had great looks (classic, and traditional) and his drive was almost unbearable at times, sometimes the e-collar on 5 wouldn't even slow him down if he wanted to do something I didn't want him to do. I finished him as AFC, NAHRA MH, AKC MH at 3 years old. I trained some 40 dog since then and finished a few. 

Last year I imported a lab from the UK because I couldn't find a good looking dog with strong field lines. As most of you know in the last 20-30 years the American field stock does not have the looks that were around back then. They have the drive not the classic lab looks and style. The show lines have made a too big of a dog for the field (I'm sorry a lab should not top 85 pounds or need to be over that).

The British do not mass produce labs and a title out there is well earned. A field trail consists of a maximum of 24 dogs in actual hunting conditions. All their dogs are trained and trialed on all game from pheasant to rabbits and fox.

I am extremely pleased with my new dog, he is the fastest learning dog I've ever trained, he is a thinker and a problem solver. He is well well mannered and a very calm dog for 13 months old, his drive for retrieving is unsurpassed. He will stop on a dime on with the stop whistle even with a live bird just 5 feet in front of him ( at 13 months old). He is already doing double blinds. 

The British are traditionalist they breed for looks, desire, mannerisms, and intelligence. Most of their labs can be duel titled (Show and Field), you can't say that for the American breed. It's either one or the other here.

I thought I just got lucky with this dog but that is not the case, I train with 4 other people who also have imported labs, one from Scotland and 3 from the UK and all dogs have the same traits. I am so pleased with this dog I am importing another one this spring.

We Americans have over bread the lab here and in doing so have lost what the dog used to be years ago. The British have kept the lab as it was for over a hundred years. A lab shouldn't be hyper or wired, it shouldn't have so much drive to disobey a command, it should be smart with style and grace and it shouldn't look like a hound that stands 27" at the shoulder. That's why you can't show a field lab here anymore.

With our desire to have a super hunting dog, the lab has lost it roots here, 40 years ago our labs looked and preformed as the British dogs do now. That's why there is such a big market for them now.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

dylandawg said:


> Most of their labs can be duel titled (Show and Field), you can't say that for the American breed. It's either one or the other here.




No they can't, there is wider disparity between Field and Show in the UK than here in the USA. The look of the UK Lab is more consistant to the UK Lab type. Personally, I don't care for their looks.

Most U.S. Field dogs may look like crap and carry a lot of genetic junk but, the better ones are also the smartest, best marking and handling Labs anywhere. 

One can't compare the level of difficulty between U.S and U.K. Field Trials. Maybe U.S. Field Trials have lead us to dogs that are for the most part "too hot" for the average handler/owner but then again, U. S. Field Trails are about extreme retrieveing and it is about super-performing Labs. I wouldn't let a 14 year old drive a Porsche 911 and more than I would want to drive a Yugo. 

I'm looking for an F250 diesel for my next Lab and can find it right here in the U S of A!


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

[double post


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

This is exaclty why we celebrate the 4th of July. Freedom from the Brits.


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## Tatyana (Nov 6, 2007)

> Most of their labs can be duel titled (Show and Field), you can't say that for the American breed. It's either one or the other here.


One of the last dual champions in the U.K. was Rockstead Footspark in 1947-1948. Last American dual champion was in 1984. As Mr. Booty said, there is a huge divide between show and field in Britain.

Sometimes American-bred show-pedigreed Labradors are referred to as English or British. Maybe that is what the OP is talking about.


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

This post went to hell just like I expected.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

All I know is the Brits idea of coffee sucks!


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

dylandawg said:


> I am extremely pleased with my new dog, he is the fastest learning dog I've ever trained, he is a thinker and a problem solver. He is well well mannered and a very calm dog for 13 months old, his drive for retrieving is unsurpassed. He will stop on a dime on with the stop whistle even with a live bird just 5 feet in front of him ( at 13 months old). He is already doing double blinds.


Do you think his calm trait is a result of your past training experience ie modern training methods, methodical teaching, and in some cases taking a dog slower and not having them so excited - to help in learning. 

Your Super Chief comment, had me smiling, as I greatly enjoy learning about Soupy, siblings and subsequent progeny.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2008)

Aussie,

I still train with a lot of the old methods but incorporate new methods too. The British labs just seem smarter and not high strung and not over eager. Which I see as less time making corrections. Granted I've only just been dealing with 4 of them and right now we're training 10 dogs, (4 British and 6 American). 

In all my training I've never had a 13 month old doing work that is expected from a 2 or 3 year old dog. It seems to me that they pay more attention and comprehend more. If anything I moving a LOT faster then the British train. In one or two training sessions the dogs have learned what they need to and then it's time to move on to the next lesson. My repartition sessions have been cut down by 50%. 

The 13 month old dog was collar conditioned at 10 months old and hasn't wore a collar in two months, I almost never have to correct him and my voice is all I need. I have never had to use a healing stick or force fetch him, he picks up anything I tell him to. The dog isn't submissive or soft, just well manored and listens. He is doing 100 yard blinds while hunting and already sits on a flush. I've shot some 40 pheasents over him this season while hunting. 

I always felt that the drive and energy of the American lab was what it should be, now I'm not so sure. I see how easily trainable these Britsh dogs are and it has to a lot to do with breeding. All 4 dogs are from totally different parts of the UK so it is not just one breeder here.


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

dylandawg said:


> Last year I imported a lab from the UK because I couldn't find a good looking dog with strong field lines. As most of you know in the last 20-30 years the American field stock does not have the looks that were around back then.


I call shenanigans. I do not believe the look of the field bred Labs have changed that much since they came over in the 20s/30s. You can find good looking Labs today as well as ugly ones. Can anyone post the photo of DC Grangemeade Precosious and his sons. I know there is a copy in the LRC book with the yellow cover. He is behind a good portion of the field Labs in the US today.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

These guys look modern to me.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> These guys look modern to me.
> View attachment 570


 



Yep. Good lookin group.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

dylandawg said:


> Aussie,
> The 13 month old dog was collar conditioned at 10 months old and hasn't wore a collar in two months, I almost never have to correct him and my voice is all I need. I have never had to use a healing stick or force fetch him, he picks up anything I tell him to. The dog isn't submissive or soft, just well manored and listens. He is doing 100 yard blinds while hunting and already sits on a flush. I've shot some 40 pheasents over him this season while hunting.


This is what I'm talkin about, refer to my post on page 1. This would just make my life soooo much easier. 

Mac


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

dylandawg said:


> Aussie,
> 
> I still train with a lot of the old methods but incorporate new methods too. The British labs just seem smarter and not high strung and not over eager. Which I see as less time making corrections. Granted I've only just been dealing with 4 of them and right now we're training 10 dogs, (4 British and 6 American).
> 
> ...


A friend of mine trained British labs for a well respected trainer in MN and would absolutely say that your experiance with British labs is unusual. He said that he could train an American FT bred dog much quicker than a Brit. From what I saw not all or even close to all British dogs are good looking. I saw just as many pointed noses and slim built British as anything. Now these were British FT dogs many that were straight from England. 

The British Lab thing is a great Marketing scam. If it wasn't for Drake the DU dog being British I really don't think we would be having this discussion. I have heard that they trained half a litter of pups, named them all Drake, just to make sure they got one that would work out.


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

Just so we can all come together and agree on something....at least these British labs aren't French !


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## BROWNDOGG (Nov 26, 2005)

I train with a guy that has a brit dog on a weakly basis, the dog is going on two now. The first year I saw that dog he was a very calm, quiet dog, never heard the dog make a peep while in the crate or staked out and for a puppy he was doing fine with marks and the yard work he was going through. 

So out of couriosity I went and looked at some Brit dogs, from a breeder in MN . The breeder showed me his dogs working, only one was steady but I was told that in only a couple of hours he could have them all steady if he wanted to. And he has never had to resort to using a collar on any of his dogs. Puppys start at $1000.00 because of there high demand. I thanked him and left.

Back to the dog I mentioned above, he still is nice calm dog while in the crate and while staked out, has good drive and is every thing his owner wants him to be, except he has become Vocal at the line. Supposably UNHEARD OF for one of these dogs.




I think to some extent it is marketing ploy, people buying puppys because of the ad they read in the back of a magazine. Claiming how calm and easy to train they are. $1000.00 for a puppy out of parents that have no titles at all ? Not for ME
________
 OXYGEN VAPORIZER


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

What the Brits do for dog games is different from the most common North American games.

One can certainly generalize that selective breeding to optimize success in the games on either side of the Atlantic, will result in some generalized differences.

Environmental factors and a generation or two of "crossing" can certainly result in dogs that may or may not demonstrate generalized characteristics of the specialized "game".

There's no hard and fast rule about anything with UK/Irish Replubic or North American labradors. 

Look at it this way: If you wanted to win an All-Age American FT, which puppy would you choose? If you wanted to wipe the eye of every handler/dog team and win the trial in an English sugarbeet field, which breeding would you choose?

Other than that, pick what you like, roll the dice and take your chances.

Which women are prettier, blondes or brunettes? Which make smarter engineers, blue-eyed or brown-eyed people? Fact is, sometimes generalizing about a population or group is dangerous. If not dangerous, it is going to be wrong, at least some of the time.

Chris


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## BROWNDOGG (Nov 26, 2005)

Chris,

I agree, with how you compared them, it's just to bad people in the US have advertised them the way they do. You hear so much about British Labs, but haven't goldens done well in trials in the UK??
________
Starcraft Ii Replays


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

BROWNDOGG said:


> Chris,
> 
> haven't goldens done well in trials in the UK??


Nah - they won't get in the water over there either.

Just trying to help out in the worst way regards

Bubba


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BROWNDOGG said:


> Chris,
> 
> I agree, with how you compared them, it's just to bad people in the US have advertised them the way they do. You hear so much about British Labs, but haven't goldens done well in trials in the UK??


Yes. There are some golden enthusiasts in the UK for sure. I got to know one quite well in May over there. (Northern Ireland was the venue, but he's from England) The story I got on the goldens over there is that their genepool is quite narrow and some of the folks over there are quite interested in crossing back, some well-bred North American Field Golden blood into their lines.

Like it or not, some people have purchased puppies from North American Brit lab breeders and agree with what some consider to be marketing hype. Personally I think it is a waste of energy and time to begrudge the claims made by UK lab breeders. The market has a way of ferreting out where the value is. 

Frankly, I hope to never be considered a breeder again! I'd just as soon leave it to others to enjoy all the ecstasy!

P.S. Back to the English Field Golden folks: They commonly refer to their breed of choice as "Goldies".

Chris


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Which make smarter engineers, blue-eyed or brown-eyed people?
> 
> Chris


I have green eyes, and I don't think I've made a half bad engineer.;-)

To your other question. If I wanted to compete in their trials, I'd probably pick an American Bred dog. But first, I'd put every ounce of effort I could into learning how they train, and what their trialing requirements are.


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Which make smarter engineers, blue-eyed or brown-eyed people?
> Chris


Blue eyed engineers, duh  :razz:


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## TimMTP (Mar 27, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Look at it this way: If you wanted to win an All-Age American FT, which puppy would you choose? If you wanted to wipe the eye of every handler/dog team and win the trial in an English sugarbeet field, which breeding would you choose?
> 
> Other than that, pick what you like, roll the dice and take your chances.


Well said Chris


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