# Retriever Training Step by Step plan



## spahu (Jul 14, 2010)

Hey there, I am wondering if any dog trainers out there have an established written retriever training plan from A to Z. I have found Mike Lardy's flow chart, but I like Wildrose Kennels' format. Their structure is:
I) Categories
A) Sub-categories
1.)skills 
Does anyone have or know where to get a plan like this? I have been training for years, but I have never written it down. I am in the process of creating a written plan and I would love everyone's imput. 
Thanks, Spahu


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## spahu (Jul 14, 2010)

The six categories that Wildrose Kennels focus on are
1.Obedience
2.Steady/Honor
3.Marking
4.Conditioned Delivery
5.Handling(Hand signals/Whistle Commands)
6.Lining
Each category has sub categories and skills attached.
EXAMPLE
I Obedience 
A. Sit/Stay
1. Sit on command/on whistle
2. Sit on hand signal
3. sit on recall
4.sit/stay with distractions
5.sit on tree stand/pit blinds
6.sit alone remote, 5min, 10mins
7.ETC.
I will be posting my plan in several weeks and it will be in this format.
Anyone that has any imput please feel free to reply


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

As part of your quest for information I suggest you go to the link below and download every document. Read and study them all of them and you'll probably come away with a better understanding of retriever training. 

http://www.weebegoldens.com/JC Seminar Info.htm


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## spahu (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks Breck, but I was not looking for advice per say. I was trying to have people post their training plans so we could share and compare. Every time I try to look up progression plans I run into LARDY's Total Retriever and Evan Graham's SMARTWORK. I would appreciate it if people could post a reply with a plan attached. Excluding initial puppy training basics this is an Example: 1)Force fetch 2) Steadiness 3)Whistle sit/commands 4) Casting 5) Handling patterns; Wagon wheels 6) Lining..... etc. I feel that flow charts are a little confusing and would love to see others A to Z plans. This seems to be the Holy Grail for beginners and amateurs. Half the battle is to determine what to teach and in what order. This issue seems to be a little secretive in the world of retriever training because experienced trainers that have established written plans do not want to spill their beans. These trainers just want to talk people into buying their own plans.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

spahu said:


> Thanks Breck, but I was not looking for advice per say. I was trying to have people post their training plans so we could share and compare. Every time I try to look up progression plans I run into LARDY's Total Retriever and Evan Graham's SMARTWORK. I would appreciate it if people could post a reply with a plan attached. Excluding initial puppy training basics this is an Example: 1)Force fetch 2) Steadiness 3)Whistle sit/commands 4) Casting 5) Handling patterns; Wagon wheels 6) Lining..... etc. I feel that flow charts are a little confusing and would love to see others A to Z plans. This seems to be the Holy Grail for beginners and amateurs. *Half the battle is to determine what to teach and in what order.* This issue seems to be a little secretive in the world of retriever training because experienced trainers that have established written plans do not want to spill their beans. These trainers just want to talk people into buying their own plans.


The half the battle that you mention (determining what to teach in what order) is out there on Lardy's and Graham's web site for free. There are no secrets. It's right their at the click of a mouse. And if you'd come up with a couple hundred dollars, you could get out there training dogs today with a proven plan rather than spending the next several weeks (these plans you mention were developed over a considerably longer period of time, I'm sure) trying to reinvent the wheel.

These flow charts, that you find confusing, tell you to do Formal Obedience, then Force Fetch, then Simple Casting... all for free. Frankly, I'm confused by your comments.


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## spahu (Jul 14, 2010)

So captain Jack what you are telling me is that these two ways are the only ways to train a retriever? Frankly sir I'm confussed by your comments. Good day. j/k


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## Kendall Steffensen (Sep 19, 2011)

Spahu,

My .02 is that Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Flow Chart is a step by step plan, start at the top and work your way down. It is not secretive and costs nothing as the flow chart can be viewed and downloaded from the totalretriever.com web site.

I don't see the logic in trying to invent my own plan when several professional trainers who have years of experience and hundreds of dogs under their belts make their programs available.

Which method/technique/program/etc. you use to teach the skills listed on the chart is up to you. But if you buy a proven program, you can always list it in the classifieds when you are finished and get most of the cost back.

Kendall


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

spahu said:


> So captain Jack what you are telling me is that these two ways are the only ways to train a retriever? Frankly sir I'm confussed by your comments. Good day. j/k


I'm not surprised that you would be confused. If you can't follow a simple flow chart, well...

I'm just telling you that if half the battle is determining what to teach and in what order as you say it is, well then half the battle has already been won.

Lardy, Graham, Stawski, etc. are not secretive at all. They put what you need to teach, in what order it needs to be taught, right out there on there web site for all to see.

No, these aren't the only ways to train a retriever. But they're a pretty good place to start.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Most people here follow TRT because each step is built on the preceeding step in a specific order. The reason we use it,_ is that it works_. If you make up your own plan you won't be able to get help if you get stuck.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Most people here follow TRT because each step is built on the preceeding step in a specific order. The reason we use it,_ is that it works_. If you make up your own plan you won't be able to get help if you get stuck.


And I'll add, another reason we follow TRT is that the guy doing the talking (Lardy) has won 7 Nationals and trained numerous other dogs that have won Nationals with their Amateur handlers. This gives his methods instant credibility. Couple that with the fact that his program is based on the work of Rex Carr, who's reputation speaks for itself.

I keep following these rainbows and running into these pots of gold. How frustrating:-x. Maybe I can find another path to follow. Any ideas out there???


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

spahu said:


> The six categories that Wildrose Kennels focus on are
> 1.Obedience
> 2.Steady/Honor
> 3.Marking
> ...


We will look forward to seeing your plan. I am sure we will all learn from it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

CaptJack forgot to mention that Lardy was inducted into the Retriever Hall of Fame in 2005. While there may be others, the most talked about on this forum are TRT by Lardy, Smartworks by Graham and Fowldogs by Rick S.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Spahu, not the sharpest tack on the board are you?
I spoon fed you a link to very interesting written material by one of the best trainers out there.
Since you had Zero comments or questions it's obvious you didn't bother to read any of it. 
Since it's been a year or two since your original post and unfortunately the kind folks who preserved those writing on the net for the benefit of anyone no longer do so. Your loss.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Thomas D said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> We will look forward to seeing your plan. I am sure we will all learn from it.


 LMAO.....


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> Spahu, not the sharpest tack on the board are you?
> I spoon fed you a link to very interesting written material by one of the best trainers out there.
> Since you had Zero comments or questions it's obvious you didn't bother to read any of it.
> Since it's been a year or two since your original post and unfortunately the kind folks who preserved those writing on the net for the benefit of anyone no longer do so. Your loss.


Wow!, I didn't even catch that.

So by now the Spahu plan must be a household plan that revolutionized retriever training. That's awsome!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This is one of the more amusing threads of the year.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

From Evan Graham's websight.


http://rushcreekpress.com/flowchart.html


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

spahu said:


> Thanks Breck, but I was not looking for advice per say. I was trying to have people post their training plans so we could share and compare. Every time I try to look up progression plans I run into LARDY's Total Retriever and Evan Graham's SMARTWORK. I would appreciate it if people could post a reply with a plan attached. Excluding initial puppy training basics this is an Example: 1)Force fetch 2) Steadiness 3)Whistle sit/commands 4) Casting 5) Handling patterns; Wagon wheels 6) Lining..... etc. I feel that flow charts are a little confusing and would love to see others A to Z plans. This seems to be the Holy Grail for beginners and amateurs. Half the battle is to determine what to teach and in what order. This issue seems to be a little secretive in the world of retriever training because experienced trainers that have established written plans do not want to spill their beans. These trainers just want to talk people into buying their own plans.


First I'm confused why it took you two years to respond to Breck. How has your training gone? I would assume your dog should be pretty advanced by now. Two) Even if you couldn't get the Lardy or Grahm flow chart free, the amount of money it takes to buy either program is pretty low compared to all the other cost of training a dog. I'm not rich, but I realize the money it takes to buy a proven video is worth it, I'm getting ready to invest in a Hillman video right now with a puppy coming in a couple weeks.

John


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> ..., I'm getting ready to invest in a Hillman video right now with a puppy coming in a couple weeks.
> 
> John


So you're not gonna wait to see the Spahu program published free right here on RTF?

Probably good thinking as it may be another two years before Spahu replies to this thread again.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

ROTFLMAO at you guys 

I needed the laughs...thanks! 


SPAHU = Special Program Aimed at Humouring the Uninterested



Then again, if da boy puts something together, I'll look at it - free of charge.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Breck said:


> Since it's been a year or two since your original post and unfortunately the kind folks who preserved those writing on the net for the benefit of anyone no longer do so. Your loss.


Gone now? That is too bad. Glad I have it all downloaded, plus his judges manual.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

spahu said:


> Thanks Breck, but *I was not looking for advice*
> per say. I was trying to have people post their training plans so we could share and compare.
> Every time I try to look up progression plans I run into _LARDY's Total Retriever_ .


that is what I use, 
It's all I need
that and my Tri-Tronics E-collar, 
it's all I need.
My Lardy vids, my Tri-Tronics collar and some rope, 
that is all I need.
Some ducks and a couple friends to toss and shoot um and my Lardy vids, my Tri-Tronics collar and some rope, 
that is all I need.
And Grounds, with great water and rolling fields and great factors and parking and access all the way around and some ducks and a couple friends to toss and shoot um and my Lardy vids, my Tri-Tronics collar and some rope, 
that is all I need.
And I don't need one other thing, except my dog.[


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> that is what I use,
> It's all I need
> that and my Tri-Tronics E-collar,
> it's all I need.
> ...


Thanks Ken, that is one heck of a written plan.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ken, that's classic! Wonder how many RTFers will recognize it?

edit: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-TEDR4YJu7hYn7/the_jerk_1979_i_dont_need_anything_part_2/


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

captainjack said:


> Ken, that's classic! Wonder how many RTFers will recognize it?
> 
> edit: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-TEDR4YJu7hYn7/the_jerk_1979_i_dont_need_anything_part_2/



..thank you..


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

captainjack said:


> And I'll add, another reason we follow TRT is that the guy doing the talking (Lardy) has won 7 Nationals and trained numerous other dogs that have won Nationals with their Amateur handlers. This gives his methods instant credibility. Couple that with the fact that his program is based on the work of Rex Carr, who's reputation speaks for itself.
> 
> I keep following these rainbows and running into these pots of gold. How frustrating:-x. Maybe I can find another path to follow. Any ideas out there???


 It's always nice to be training the best breed dogs in the country.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

truthseeker said:


> It's always nice to be training the best breed dogs in the country.


what breed is best? 
didn't the poor feller start with Goldens? 
no place to go but up


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> what breed is best?
> didn't the poor feller start with Goldens?
> no place to go but up


OK!! I will takes this. As you have seen I am a wizard on the key board and HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET THIS SPELL
CHECK TO WORK. I did mean "BRED" with one E.
Take Care Keith


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> what breed is best?
> didn't the poor feller start with Goldens?
> no place to go but up


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> It's always nice to be training the best breed dogs in the country.


What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Do you think when Mike started out as a trainer, those owners with the best bred dogs in the country and bottomless bank accounts said hey, this guy has no proven track record, so I think I'll send him my dog?

Mike gets some of the best dogs in the country because of his reputation, not the other way around.

edit: The same can be said for other top pros.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

My point was that, A trainer has to have both the ability to train and the dog that has what it takes. The old saying is a trainer can't put it in ( talent) but they can sure take it out. When somebody starts droping name of pro's that they might be working with and want my opion. I tell them don't look at the titles that they have. You need to look at how many washout that they have produced.
Keith


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## Tom Mouer (Aug 26, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> We will look forward to seeing your plan. I am sure we will all learn from it.


Perhaps there will also be a video included to further enlighten the RTF folks.
I'm curious as to how far this revision of methods has progressed.
If videos are added, they will bring back memories of Fred H. & Sit means SIT!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> My point was that, A trainer has to have both the ability to train and the dog that has what it takes. The old saying is a trainer can't put it in ( talent) but they can sure take it out. When somebody starts droping name of pro's that they might be working with and want my opion. I tell them don't look at the titles that they have. You need to look at how many washout that they have produced.
> Keith


Nobody is dropping the name of a pro they may be working with. They are stating facts about the pro producing a quality training DVD.

Are you suggesting that Mike washes a lot of dogs out or that he takes the talent out of dogs?

Not regarding Mike, but just pro trainers in general. Would you rather a pro wash your dog out, or keep billing you for training when they know the dog will never reach the goals you have as an owner?

You say look the number of washouts not titles, I say look at the complete package. If a pro needs your check each month to make ends meet, I think that pro may be more inclined to keep a dog longer than he should. In which case you're tyhrowing good money after bad. Of course I'm realistic as well. If I have the 24th (or last) dog on an A list pro's truck, and that pro has a chance to get his hands on what looks to be a future NFC, well I'd guess my dog may be coming home.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

This has nothing to do with Mr Lardy, I do not know him. I do agree with you, that when reseaching on how to train or who to train with you have to look at the whole picture. so why was the OP, steped on so quickly.

Keith


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I tell them don't look at the titles that they have. *You need to look at how many washout that they have produced*.


Tell us how you research that figure?


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> TS said:
> 
> 
> > You have to look at the whole picture. So why was the OP stepped on so quickly?


If you follow the advice in your first sentence, the answer to that question should be obvious.


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## Tom Mouer (Aug 26, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> what breed is best?
> didn't the poor feller start with Goldens?
> no place to go but up


Ken,
He could have started with Chessies and probably would have given up!

Just think about the great loss for all the retriever folks if that had happened.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Now it looking like I have poked the bear. So if your not training with programs produces by the three legs of the wholly grail. you do not know how to train.
Is that the answer?
Keith


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

The pro's without dvd's have titled more dogs than the ones who have dvd's. You can go learn from a pro in person and they will not follow the step by step or do the drills that you see in a video. That's just the real world.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> My point was that, A trainer has to have both the ability to train and the dog that has what it takes. The old saying is a trainer can't put it in ( talent) but they can sure take it out. When somebody starts droping name of pro's that they might be working with and want my opion. I tell them don't look at the titles that they have. *You need to look at how many washout that they have produced
> Keith*


*

An excellent point.

john*


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I like beer. I could go start my own brewing in the garage and drink my own swill for years. On the other hand I live in the NW surrounded by some of the finest breweries in the world. Why waste my time drinking my own toxic swill when I can just walk to Bubba's truck and drink the finest beer in the world, free beer...

/Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Now it looking like I have poked the bear. So if your not training with programs produces by the three legs of the wholly grail. you do not know how to train.
> Is that the answer?
> Keith


You aren't paying attention. Many folks here on RTF, and probably folks involved in retriever training in general, believe that these three trainers know how to train or better yet how to teach other people how to train dogs. This statement was made based on observations of the many threads here on RTF where Lardy, Graham, and Stawski are the most dicussed programs. Making this statement says nothing at all about whether other folks may or may not know how to train.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion from reading the comments here.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

captainjack said:


> You aren't paying attention. Many folks here on RTF, and probably folks involved in retriever training in general, believe that these three trainers know how to train or better yet how to teach other people how to train dogs. This statement was made based on observations of the many threads here on RTF where Lardy, Graham, and Stawski are the most dicussed programs. Making this statement says nothing at all about whether other folks may or may not know how to train. I don't see how you came to that conclusion from reading the comments here."
> 
> 
> I would guess it's due to the vehemence and relish with which the OP was attacked and insulted. This is a low point for RTF. Obviously, Lardy et al know what they're doing and have great success and credentials. That doesn't mean no one should try and redefine the steps of training for themselves. And I would venture that a lot of you have if you just stop and think about it. I would bet that the OP was asking you for your own re-definitions of the specific steps.
> ...


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Jhenion said:


> captainjack said:
> 
> 
> > You aren't paying attention. Many folks here on RTF, and probably folks involved in retriever training in general, believe that these three trainers know how to train or better yet how to teach other people how to train dogs. This statement was made based on observations of the many threads here on RTF where Lardy, Graham, and Stawski are the most dicussed programs. Making this statement says nothing at all about whether other folks may or may not know how to train. I don't see how you came to that conclusion from reading the comments here."
> ...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Very well said, Glen.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> captainjack said:
> 
> 
> > You aren't paying attention. Many folks here on RTF, and probably folks involved in retriever training in general, believe that these three trainers know how to train or better yet how to teach other people how to train dogs. This statement was made based on observations of the many threads here on RTF where Lardy, Graham, and Stawski are the most dicussed programs. Making this statement says nothing at all about whether other folks may or may not know how to train. I don't see how you came to that conclusion from reading the comments here."
> ...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> That doesn't mean no one should try and redefine the steps of training for themselves. And I would venture that a lot of you have if you just stop and think about it.


Trainers can and do implement steps differently once they are successful and know what techniques work, but what does "redefine" mean? I think a trainer needs to be highly successful in competition before he can devise a new training chart, but when he is a novice, he has to figure out not only what may work with his one dog, but will the method work with all kinds of dogs before he writes his chart to success.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Jen* posted


> This is a low point for RTF


Oh really? You must be one of the new girls. 

Stick around kid. 

Eug


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Trainers can and do implement steps differently once they are successful and know what techniques work, but what does "redefine" mean? I think a trainer needs to be highly successful in competition before he can devise a new training chart, but when he is a novice, he has to figure out not only what may work with his one dog, but will the method work with all kinds of dogs before he writes his chart to success.


Nancy
Do you think all these programs that are out work with dogs who exhibit strong "avoidance tendencies" what I mean by that is dogs who will go into avoidance mode even using food as a motivator. And who must be carefully lead to accept the food while a command is trying to be taught. 
This is a fairly common dog. Some dogs are all fun and games until you try to teach them something.
Or do these programs need to be modified a little to make it work better.?
Not everyone gets dogs from great breeding's and some of those are not much different. 

I have at least watched 5 or 6 dog video's over the years and what I gathered is they all use co-operative dogs to video.

Pete


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I guess the obvious needs to be clarified. For those that seem to be annoyed by a few of the "approaches", let's look at some simple facts that seem to have been ignored or just plain totally missed. 

Post # 1 by spahu (the OP) was dated 7/14/*2010*
Post # 2 by spahu was dated 7/14/*2010*
post # 3 by Breck was dated 7/14/*2010*

*post #4 by spahu is dated 8/1/2012*
and it picks up on Breck's two year old post as if it were yesterday.









So if anyone feels that is not bizarre enough to be amused and/or a bit critical, it amazes me.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Pete said:


> Nancy
> Do you think all these programs that are out work with dogs who exhibit strong "avoidance tendencies" what I mean by that is dogs who will go into avoidance mode even using food as a motivator. And who must be carefully lead to accept the food while a command is trying to be taught.
> This is a fairly common dog. Some dogs are all fun and games until you try to teach them something.
> Or do these programs need to be modified a little to make it work better.?
> ...


And if the assumption is that our buddy Spahu is gonna pull together a program - flow chart and all - that covers every conceivable nuiance, including dealing with dogs as described above, then he better have a huge mailer that can handle 25 DVDs - with 25 more being mailed out a week later.

Differentiation exists amoungst even dogs with "avoidance tendencies" and you're not gonna cover every conceivable issue that crops up. 

My take is that most of these programs are more the "science" than the art (with possible exception of Rorem's - maybe). The art comes from years of - exposures to - actual training scenarios and working through them. Can all THESE be put into a DVD? IMHO, no.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

KwickLabs said:


> ....So if anyone feels that is not bizarre enough to be amused and/or a bit critical, it amazes me.


yup yup,
ya think a bridge may be missing its troll?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Pete said:


> Nancy
> Do you think all these programs that are out work with dogs who exhibit strong "avoidance tendencies" what I mean by that is dogs who will go into avoidance mode even using food as a motivator. And who must be carefully lead to accept the food while a command is trying to be taught.
> This is a fairly common dog. Some dogs are all fun and games until you try to teach them something.
> Or do these programs need to be modified a little to make it work better.?
> ...


I think a very good trainer who has been training for decades has successfully tried different approaches to motivate a dog that tries to avoid, but seldom using food. Both of the pros I use I posed one question: what gives you the most satisfaction in training and both answered the dog that is a challenge that other people have given up on. I have seen dogs like this turn around in as little as a week. Maybe it is their patient manner or the calmness of their demeanor, but they are teachers first and I have watched dogs respond positively over and over. The dogs need to be successful. They need to get in the dogs' head as to why they are tring to avoid. Both pros use Rex Carr methods, maybe with their own modification in areas for certain dogs, but not essentially changing the order of the program. There is one type of dog that is tough and it is the one that is not birdy or has absolutely no interest in retrieving. Those usually are washed because even though they could probably be persuaded to retrieve, they really do not want to and it becomes a question of do you find them a home as a couch potato or continue for what reason. I have seen this in bench dogs and field dogs. Many trainers won't bother with the project dogs. Also, being washed out means different things to different clients. One client's washout may be a great dog for someone else with this type of trainer. There is a difference between washed out and ruined beyond repair.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

KwickLabs said:


> I guess the obvious needs to be clarified. For those that seem to be annoyed by a few of the "approaches", let's look at some simple facts that seem to have been ignored or just plain totally missed.
> 
> Post # 1 by spahu (the OP) was dated 7/14/*2010*
> Post # 2 by spahu was dated 7/14/*2010*
> ...


That was the only thing that struck me. That and the fact that the OP promised to post his new approach to retriever training, then nothing for two years when and he pops up with zero mention of his new system. His dog would certainly be out of Senior by that time, getting ready for Master, or leaving the Derby and starting Quals, but no mention of his dog, accomplishments or new, improved system.

John


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

OP mentions Stewart, but Stewart's suggestion is for a DETAILED plan. 

The TRT flowchart communicates general steps and related progression thereof; it is not meant to be a detailed plan as Stewart describes his suggestion of one.

Details underlying the TRT flowchart are in the DVDs. Whether the DVDs ought to be more detailed about this or that is up to debate; but we do know Lardy added content to his 2nd edition.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think a very good trainer who has been training for decades has successfully tried different approaches to motivate a dog that tries to avoid, but seldom using food. Both of the pros I use I posed one question: what gives you the most satisfaction in training and both answered the dog that is a challenge that other people have given up on. I have seen dogs like this turn around in as little as a week. Maybe it is their patient manner or the calmness of their demeanor, but they are teachers first and I have watched dogs respond positively over and over. The dogs need to be successful. They need to get in the dogs' head as to why they are tring to avoid. Both pros use Rex Carr methods, maybe with their own modification in areas for certain dogs, but not essentially changing the order of the program. There is one type of dog that is tough and it is the one that is not birdy or has absolutely no interest in retrieving. Those usually are washed because even though they could probably be persuaded to retrieve, they really do not want to and it becomes a question of do you find them a home as a couch potato or continue for what reason. I have seen this in bench dogs and field dogs. Many trainers won't bother with the project dogs. Also, being washed out means different things to different clients. One client's washout may be a great dog for someone else with this type of trainer. There is a difference between washed out and ruined beyond repair.


Nancy-great post!

M


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Breck said:


> As part of your quest for information I suggest you go to the link below and download every document. Read and study them all of them and you'll probably come away with a better understanding of retriever training.
> 
> http://www.weebegoldens.com/JC Seminar Info.htm


The Cavanaugh manuals are great! Thanks for the link!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

A step by step method to coming up with a step by step training method:


Download Lardy's Flow Chart
Buy the "Training with Mike Lardy" volumes for about $75
Read the volumes
Highlight the important parts
Create an outline that takes out all those pesky words


Then you have it.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> yup yup,
> ya think a bridge may be missing its troll?


Could be????


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

You All are gonna feel a bit silly if down the road this OP becomes a world renowned individual with his new program aint ya!!

What ya gonna say then??

Ya know people laughed at that Bill Gates guy!

And everyone thought Steve Jobs was a kook!

Ya'll better be carefull.

What about that Zuckerburger Facebook pimple faced kid???

I know of a guy who is thinking bout a Pink Clothing line.... FER GUYS!!!

What ya gonna say to knock his arse down in the gutter??? HUH!!!

I mean come On!!



Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

How many of Ya have sold yer horse, and now drive a Ford???



Ya'll better be careful!!!

The Pink line a clothing is gonna be named "GOOSED"

Gooser


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Those new fangled innovations will never catch on Gooser. Next you are going to tell me that people will trade in their running shoes for those new fangled Ecollars. Or even worse tell me that the new feller Carr is going to replace Wolters or that even newer feller Lardy will amount to something. Lardy a new feller with new ideas, what an idiot thinking he can improve on others ideas. Now there is this Sphau person just another in a line of self deluded crack pots with new ideas. Don't these people know the old ways are always best and not to upset the status quo??? 

Satire


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Originally Posted by Breck

As part of your quest for information I suggest you go to the link below and download every document. Read and study them all of them and you'll probably come away with a better understanding of retriever training. 

http://www.weebegoldens.com/JC Seminar Info.htm

Just a comment on this message as a way of learning for me. It does not work to read all the material presented and it was a good amount. I went through and read John Cavenaugh's seminar. It was good but it does not cut it especially if I was new. I personally need to see either first hand or through the DVD how to actually go about the method start to end. IMHO
Thanks for sharing the link. Others should take a look at the material. I am getting off thread but....


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> You All are gonna feel a bit silly if down the road this OP becomes a world renowned individual with his new program aint ya!!
> What ya gonna say then??
> ...


I guess I'll come on RTF and say that I'm looking for a training program that tells me what to do and in what order to do it, but when i search all i keep getting is this Spahu program. Maybe someone else can do what's already been done but not try to sell it, but rather give it to me free. Then I'll probably tell everyone that I'll come up with my own plan. I'll then completely ignore a good piece of advice from an RTFer. After that I'll come back to the thread two years later and pick up the conversation as if it were the next day and tell the person giving the good advice that I didn't need any advice. 

...Na, that's been done to death.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Who rated this thread with five stars?


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## spahu (Jul 14, 2010)

It looks as if the RTF pitbull welcome crew has picked up on this one. WOW a lot of venom in those replies! HA. I did not intend any disrespect to Mr. Lardy, Mr. Graham and I certainly did not mean any disrespect to any of RTFers. I just wanted a discussion about what we all do with our doggies. No one has any deviations to Lardy's flow chart. You guys use it in the same order, with every dog, every time? The flow chart is great and it does work, look at the results. I just differ a little in the orders and angle I attack the training. IMHO For example I am not a big fan of whistles. I understand that casting is necessary but I hate tweeting in a duck blind if I don’t have too. Just me. I work really hard on lining my dog, even to the point of micro lining. I do pile work and even wagon wheels before I train on casting. I feel that it flows better due to the fact that we just taught our dogs how to heel with correct spine alignment according to our leg in the obedience part of training. With wagon wheels they learn to follow our legs even further. I do line drills in orange groves and other orchards. It helps my pups get the concept of lining quickly. I also like to use cable runs initially to help them succeed at first. So captainjack, kwiklabs, breck do you guys have anything to comment about training itself? I just want to have a discussion not an argument.


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## spahu (Jul 14, 2010)

Sorry for not following thread protocol fellas. I was out of the country for a couple of years and the last thing on my mind was to update my RTF account. I just want to have a nice discussion about our passion.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

*I do pile work and even wagon wheels before I train on casting. I feel that it flows better due to the fact that we just taught our dogs how to heel with correct spine alignment according to our leg in the obedience part of training. With wagon wheels they learn to follow our legs even further.
*
Good for you. And Evan Graham uses the e-collar for "here" before Lardy does. So what? 

I've used bumpers lining an about 25 yard runway with ducks at the last two points and orange bumpers as the pile. This is to help with "micro lining" and with staying away from a poison bird. So what?

Many of us here do some things differently to help instill a concept, but the basic flow I follow will always be Lardy. Does Lardy not want me to do a drill like I described? Maybe, maybe not. He would want to make sure that it helps and its part of a larger balanced approach. 

Let's see your training program. You owe us that much given all your pronouncements and what not.


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## spahu (Jul 14, 2010)

Thank you Phil. That is all I wanted. People's little techniques that differ from what is out there on the web. Thanks for the info. Can you elaborate a little.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Not much to elaborate on. You can vary the width of the runway from 6' to 6" if you want; all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Me, I'm just trying to get the dog to run a fairly straight line on a flat surface and bypass a couple of ducks on the way to the pile. It gives her another picture of what to do, along with my hope that she can integrate it into many like pictures as well as generalize it. 

It's no substitute for throwing poison bird marks that she has to run past, but it does give her an experience of running near a duck without picking it up during a "back" (i.e., blind). Again, it's not a substitute for running blinds with poison birds having been marked.

It's a drill. There are many variations on a theme (drills that is) and to try to catalog them all into a "program" is foolish IMHO. 

But hey, you got time I guess, so go for it.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

spahu said:


> ...So captainjack, kwiklabs, breck do you guys have anything to comment about training itself? I just want to have a discussion not an argument.


Nope spahu, nothing to comment on training itself. I haven't always done so (i fumbled around with my 1st two dogs before i was introduced to TRT) but for the last 5 dogs I've trained, I went exactly per Lardy's TRT. I do exactly what's there and in the exact order. If I didn't see it in his DVDs, read it in his articles, or see/hear it in his workshops, I don't do it. Now this is for basics through transition. Advanced training under TRT is more about training philisophy rather than step by step, although I do build marking concepts step bt step per Lardy. I follow this philosophy to the best of my ability and understanding. I really like Dennis Voigt's Retrievers ONLINE for info beyond the core program because the philosophy is very compatible with Lardy's.

Now I'll admit that I have only put 5 dogs through the program (3 simultaneously) but they have each been very different with some breezing through certain stages, different trouble spots, etc. They all went through every step of basics in order. One pup I would have suspended marking during FF and would also have CC to here sooner but I didn't here Lardy say this until I went to a Basics/transition workshop and that's what he told me I should do. 

One thing that you should understand about Mike is that he is not opposed to trying something new. I saw him working with a handler who had a dog that was munching bumpers. He tried this and tried that, with no improvement. He thought for a minute and said try this other thing and the dog responded. Someone asked if that was something he has used with many dogs, and he replied, "no, I've never done that before". That certainly doesn't mean that an inexperienced trainer should go about altering the way they go through TRT basics before they even have a decent understanding of the program.

I think you will find that most people who deviate from Lardy's program are doing so in order to make it easier to get through a certain step. I'd also say that the dog and trainer both would likely learn more by working through that step as it is shown in the DVD. Working through the step lets you know if the previous work was adequate and also gives you the tools to deal with issues that may come up in future field training.

FF is not about picking stuff up, and pile work isn't about picking up bumpers from a pile.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Who rated this thread with five stars?




hehehehehe


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Hi Spahu,

Welcome back from wherever you were for 2 years. If you were doing military service, then thank you very much.

Welcome back to RTF.

I've been offline for several days and am just now trying to catch up and dig out.

I have been following this thread and I observed a bit of a "shock gobble" effect. Spahu came in and made a post or two, then disappeared for 2 years, then made another post - as if it were in total flow and no time had passed. Some folks reacted and "gobbled" - kind of like the Tom turkey who reacts to the thunder boom or the car door slam. They were a bit unsure and confused by what the originator was seeking to discuss - and by the timing...so they reacted. Spahu closed his post in July of 2010 that in several days he'd be posting his own program. Then over 2 years later, Spahu bumps the thread, but without the mentioned program.

Spahu, it would have been much less confusing to all who have attempted to respond in this thread, if you would have made it clear, when you chose to bump it to the top, some detail. It would have been great if you'd have acknowledged that this is 2 years old, that you've had reasons for being away, and that you are interested in discussing it more after the lull and time. It may have also helped calm some of the reactions if you had addressed head-on, the fact that you committed to posting your own program in "several days" - and indicated something explaining why you had not yet posted it, or what had changed.

It was pretty confusing.

I have seen some very good responses in this thread that I think adequately cover what you seem to want to discuss. I also have a few "pitbulls" in my home. I was a dog racist for several years. I thought they all belonged dead - until my family convinced me to just meet one. She sleeps in our bed and babysits our kids. I view pitbulls at the parks and walking on the sidewalks very differently than I used to. I also feel differently about Rottweilers, Dobermans, and some other breeds. 

The training flowcharts are an attempt for that writer to give a one page overview at a glance. It is a flowchart. If Mike Stewart were to produce a flowchart, I'd imagine the words would be different, the order of some steps would be different, but in the end, it is still just a flowchart.

Let's say I'm going from Decatur, IL to Atlanta, GA. I ask for a route to get there. I can get directions from folks who post here, or from a website like google maps. Here is the fact. There is more than one way to get from point A to point B. There is no way that is more "right" or "correct". If you get to the destination safely, you succeeded in navigating the route.

Different folks will have different goals and objectives on their trip. Some want the fastest route possible. There likely is a route that is generally faster. But there are variables that can alter this. Weather issues, traffic accidents, road maintenance, etc. can all make the normally faster route less effective. 

Other folks may want the most scenic route to get from IL to Atlanta. They don't mind the extra time. They may find, however, that cornfields and soybean fields are beautiful - hills and mountains are just not pretty to them. There's no "right" or "wrong" in that. It is personal preference. But they may get a route that bypasses the prairies and really highlights the hill country. They may find that to be a "bad route" despite someone else suggesting it for its scenic beauty.

If you have found a route to reach your destination, and you are happy with it - that's wonderful. Good for you and good for your dog. Every dog trainer and every canine student deserves to have such a situation. If you compare your dog, which you are totally happy with to another dog whose performance is nearly identical - you could very well find that the trainer and dog followed a very different route to get there. But guess what....they got to the same destination as you. Again, there is no true "right" or "wrong".

Spahu, What is it that you are trying to accomplish today with your posting on this thread? 

Do you want to argue?

Do you want to share your new "program" that you referenced a couple years ago?

Do you want to rejoin our community and participate as someone who's back in town and ready to roll?

Welcome back.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Nope spahu, nothing to comment on training itself. I haven't always done so (i fumbled around with my 1st two dogs before i was introduced to TRT) but for the last 5 dogs I've trained, I went exactly per Lardy's TRT. I do exactly what's there and in the exact order. If I didn't see it in his DVDs, read it in his articles, or see/hear it in his workshops, I don't do it. Now this is for basics through transition. Advanced training under TRT is more about training philisophy rather than step by step, although I do build marking concepts step bt step per Lardy. I follow this philosophy to the best of my ability and understanding. I really like Dennis Voigt's Retrievers ONLINE for info beyond the core program because the philosophy is very compatible with Lardy's.
> 
> Now I'll admit that I have only put 5 dogs through the program (3 simultaneously) but they have each been very different with some breezing through certain stages, different trouble spots, etc. They all went through every step of basics in order. One pup I would have suspended marking during FF and would also have CC to here sooner but I didn't here Lardy say this until I went to a Basics/transition workshop and that's what he told me I should do.
> 
> ...


I highlighted CJ's paragraph that really grabbed me. This is huge.

The point is that all of these programs are only a suggested, generalized course of training progression. Every dog will develop uniquely for a multitude of reasons. There are all sorts of variables that can not be laid out in a "program" to make it a true paint by the numbers sort of process.

Here is my suggestion: 

Pick a trainer whose results are pleasing to you. Pick a program (if that's what you want) that is logical and pleasing to you. We all have our own preferences on that. I personally find Mike Lardy's materials to be incredibly efficient with words. I find that MIke Lardy's Volume I, II, III articles to be packed with good stuff, without lots of rambling and un-necessary verbiage. That's how I like it.  Mike's stuff works for me.

If you don't like Mike's northern Midwestern accent in the DVD's, or if you want to listen or see some other trainer do it their way - go for it. 

There is no "right" or "wrong".

I used to love Patrick Johndrow's quote of his grandpa: "If every man saw beauty the same, we'd all be chasing your grandma".

Some like blondes, some like brunettes.

Enjoy what you do. Dog training is supposed to be fun for dog and trainer.

Chris


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PhilBernardi said:


> *I do pile work and even wagon wheels before I train on casting. I feel that it flows better due to the fact that we just taught our dogs how to heel with correct spine alignment according to our leg in the obedience part of training. With wagon wheels they learn to follow our legs even further.
> *
> Good for you. And Evan Graham uses the e-collar for "here" before Lardy does. So what?


I've said more times than I can possibly count, "Train the dog you're training." It is wise to follow a sound, sequential, proven progression...generally. The newer trainer you are, the wiser it is to stay close to a proven plan. As you acquire experience (successful experience is best!) then it's reasonable to get more creative. But do what is best for the dog at your side. 

Too often the dogs seen on video are fully-trained, but are running something basic. They look great, don't they? Yours probably won't look that great. Be ready to adapt to your dog's needs; train your dog - train the dog _you're_ training.

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Chris and Captain Jack Great posts. Thanks as always.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Evan said:


> "Train the dog you're training."
> 
> Evan


I like Chris is trip analogy. So what you are saying is Chris should "drive the car he is driving" If he has a sports car he may well take the route with more curves and twisty roads as a more enjoyable journey. If he is driving a "high profile vehicle" he may want to avoid passes and canyons or other high wind areas. If he is driving a gas guzzler he may need to take the route with more gas stations along the way. And if he has a 4 wheel drive and the skills to use it he may venture off road and make his own path knowing that he may get stuck and need help from friends to get out or reach an impass and have to back track a ways to either a main road or try a different unknown path. Trailblazers spend a lot of time trying new paths and spinning their wheels but the path they take may become the next superhighway or more probably will just become a set of tracks that fade with time. The great pros have been from point A to B in so many different cars they know the best way for each "car". They can also tell you if your car can make that journey from A to B, if it has what it takes.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes, that's pretty much it. To have a safe enjoyable trip you would adapt your driving style to best suit the vehicle you're driving, and to the road you're on. To get the best performance from the dog you are training you will need to adapt the skill development process to best suit that dog and the tools you're using. You'll still give him the same set of skills. But you will do that in a way that he best understands and can live with. 

The thing about discussions like this is that we often get a bit myopic about the training systems, and what each author advocates as a way of getting it done. Then we soon lose sight of the fact that each dog's personality and emotional make up is so different sometimes that poor results can be produced by a good system because the trainer was so stuck in doing things just like the star trainer on the video said to do it without thought for the dog he/she was doing it _to_. The analogy works well.

Evan


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Evan said:


> Yes, that's pretty much it. To have a safe enjoyable trip you would adapt your driving style to best suit the vehicle you're driving, and to the road you're on. To get the best performance from the dog you are training you will need to adapt the skill development process to best suit that dog and the tools you're using. You'll still give him the same set of skills. But you will do that in a way that he best understands and can live with.
> 
> The thing about discussions like this is that we often get a bit myopic about the training systems, and what each author advocates as a way of getting it done. Then we soon lose sight of the fact that each dog's personality and emotional make up is so different sometimes that poor results can be produced by a good system because the trainer was so stuck in doing things just like the star trainer on the video said to do it without thought for the dog he/she was doing it _to_. The analogy works w


Very well stated Evan. Im as new to this as my pup but one thing I have learned is get a program and use it as a guidline. In my mind to many times it has been posted on RTF pick a program and follow it to a T. Just as their is no timeline to follow some dogs are going to learn differently.improvise, adapt, and overcome. And when in doubt hopefully you have a local pro. You can contact as helpful as mine.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

kinda understand where Spahu is coming from.. I had a hard time figuring out the chart too. Once you get to transition and advanced. When I started. Still feel like Im chaising my tail.
If I didnt have a few more experienced guys, help me I may have quit at JH... Im still confused


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Brad said:


> kinda understand where Spahu is coming from.. I had a hard time figuring out the chart too. Once you get to transition and advanced. When I started. Still feel like Im chaising my tail.
> If I didnt have a few more experienced guys, help me I may have quit at JH... Im still confused


Totally agree on that also. Might as well be written in Vietnamese for a true beginner. All to easy to say its easy to follow after you have used it for a few dogs. And forget about the help you received from others. Just my opinion.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Brad said:


> kinda understand where Spahu is coming from.. I had a hard time figuring out the chart too. Once you get to transition and advanced. When I started. Still feel like Im chaising my tail.
> If I didnt have a few more experienced guys, help me I may have quit at JH... Im still confused


Maybe I'm just a genius or something. It was easy to understand for me with my first dog which was the first dog I trained from beginning to end. I had a pro do formal obedience, FF, and CC with my 1st two dogs.

So what your telling us is that you watched the TRT DVDs several times, followed along in the booklet that came with the DVDs, and you couldnt figure out from all of that and the flow chart that you start basics with formal obedience, then force fetch, then simple casting, then collar conditioining, then pile work, etc... That is really hard to believe.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

captainjack said:


> Maybe I'm just a genius or something. It was easy to understand for me with my first dog which was the first dog I trained from beginning to end. I had a pro do formal obedience, FF, and CC with my 1st two dogs.
> 
> So what your telling us is that you watched the TRT DVDs several times, followed along in the booklet that came with the DVDs, and you couldnt figure out from all of that and the flow chart that you start basics with formal obedience, then force fetch, then simple casting, then collar conditioining, then pile work, etc... That is really hard to believe.


You must be a genius. This is the typical answer I have seen on here. If everyone worships lardy then say so. But his flow chart is not set up like any flow chart I've ever read and i have read alot. In my honest opinion it prob. Would make sense if you were using his program but if thats the case then don't recommend it to someone who is using another program. And again the layout of it is not like any flowchart I have looked at. The goto answer is to download that chart for all newbies. But we all aren't on the same page.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

blackasmollases said:


> You must be a genius. This is the typical answer I have seen on here. If everyone worships lardy then say so. But his flow chart is not set up like any flow chart I've ever read and i have read alot. In my honest opinion it prob. Would make sense if you were using his program but if thats the case then don't recommend it to someone who is using another program. And again the layout of it is not like any flowchart I have looked at. The goto answer is to download that chart for all newbies. But we all aren't on the same page.


So you were trying to use the flow chart without having his program. Even more than that, you were using a different program and trying to combine it with Lardy's flow chart.

Well that would explain a lot. Frankly, if you have his DVDs and still don't understand the flow chart, I'd have to recommend giving the dog away and selling the DVDs.

BTW, the most common piece of advice posted on RTF (the go to advice) is...

*Pick one program and stick with it. * Too bad you didn't get that advice soon enough. Mixing programs is a recipe for disaster. It really does take a genious to do that successfully.

edit: I wouldn't say that I worship Lardy, but I would say, and it should be obvious from my posts, that I follow TRT religously. Once you see the light, you too will be a believer.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

I guess maybe we all need to order trt along with the program we choose so we can understand! I'm not trying to start an argument inside an argument. But everyone on here started at the beginning. So share a little knowledge and spare us the sarcasm. Most all of you were at the point we are now once.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

captainjack said:


> So you were trying to use the flow chart without having his program. Even more than that, you were using a different program and trying to combine it with Lardy's flow chart.
> 
> Well that would explain a lot. Frankly, if you have his DVDs and still don't understand the flow chart, I'd have to recommend giving the dog away and selling the DVDs.
> 
> ...


Thats the biggest [email protected]#t post of yours yet. I cant count how many posts ive read on here that say to download lardys flowchart no matter what program they are using. And by the way im not using his flowchart with my program. So go back to your lardy shrine and and light some more candles.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

captainjack said:


> Maybe I'm just a genius or something. It was easy to understand for me with my first dog which was the first dog I trained from beginning to end. I had a pro do formal obedience, FF, and CC with my 1st two dogs.
> 
> So what your telling us is that you watched the TRT DVDs several times, followed along in the booklet that came with the DVDs, and you couldnt figure out from all of that and the flow chart that you start basics with formal obedience, then force fetch, then simple casting, then collar conditioining, then pile work, etc... That is really hard to believe.


This is the heart of the argument between people like Glen and beginners. Yes, Lardy is great. But you are suggesting that a newbie is stupid if they don't "get" his one page flow chart, when what they were asking for is a step by step recipe. That's not what the flow chart is. You Glen, worked with a pro to do the first hard stuff and you had all the DVDs which you watched over and over. That's very different than just saying that a newbie should down load the free flow chart and "get" it.

If you're really saying: buy all the dvds that come with the book and work with a pro simultaneously, fine. But that's not what people were saying at first. They basically said, "if you want a step by step, just download Lardy's flow chart - don't reinvent the wheel." "And if you don't understand the flow chart, you're dumb." 

As it has been said over and over, the hard fact is that there is no free step by incremental step recipe out there. You have to buy a program and commit to it, if you want to figure out how to do this stuff. But it sounded like the OP does have training experience and wanted to pool his thoughts with others on RTF to create a free step by incremental step list for newbies, not just a one-page flow chart that needs interpretation and breaking down into smaller steps.



Jennifer


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

captainjack said:


> Maybe I'm just a genius or something. It was easy to understand for me with my first dog which was the first dog I trained from beginning to end. I had a pro do formal obedience, FF, and CC with my 1st two dogs.


Generally if you have worked with a pro as you state, Lardy is easier to follow than someone that has no exposure or training.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I don't think Lardy's flow chart was meant to stand alone. It was originally included in one of his retriever journal articles. By the way, if you buy the $25 article compilation (the first one), it provides a step-by-step, paint-by-numbers, knucklehead proof program for training retrievers to a high level.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Jhenion said:


> This is the heart of the argument between people like Glen and beginners. Yes, Lardy is great. But you are suggesting that a newbie is stupid if they don't "get" his one page flow chart, when what they were asking for is a step by step recipe. That's not what the flow chart is. You Glen, worked with a pro to do the first hard stuff and you had all the DVDs which you watched over and over. That's very different than just saying that a newbie should down load the free flow chart and "get" it.
> 
> If you're really saying: buy all the dvds that come with the book and work with a pro simultaneously, fine. But that's not what people were saying at first. They basically said, "if you want a step by step, just download Lardy's flow chart - don't reinvent the wheel." "And if you don't understand the flow chart, you're dumb."
> 
> ...



Thank you Jennifer
thats all I was trying to get at. Quite talking to us like we are stupid "ignorant maybe" but not stupid. We all start somewhere.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Jhenion said:


> This is the heart of the argument between people like Glen and beginners. Yes, Lardy is great. But you are suggesting that a newbie is stupid if they don't "get" his one page flow chart, when what they were asking for is a step by step recipe. That's not what the flow chart is. You Glen, worked with a pro to do the first hard stuff and you had all the DVDs which you watched over and over. That's very different than just saying that a newbie should down load the free flow chart and "get" it.
> 
> If you're really saying: buy all the dvds that come with the book and work with a pro simultaneously, fine. But that's not what people were saying at first. They basically said, "if you want a step by step, just download Lardy's flow chart - don't reinvent the wheel." "And if you don't understand the flow chart, you're dumb."
> 
> ...


I think that's called a "GOTCHA"!

john


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

bjoiner said:


> Generally if you have worked with a pro as you state, Lardy is easier to follow than someone that has no exposure or training.


Believe me, the pro I worked with is not one that would give you any insight into Lardy's training philosophy. And I didn't work with the pro. 

edit: Also, I paid the pro to do those things. I didin't see the pro do any training except for running marks on the Saturdays. Then I floundered around until someone told me to buy the Lardy DVDs. So for the newbies, you can continue to argue with me about how I'm just a Lardy-ite and I've forgotten what its like to be a newbie, or you can pick a program and study it inside and out and start reeping the benefits. The fact is I know exactly what its like, and I wish someone would have given me the same advice that I and others are giving here before I spent $7,000 on training bills and ended up with a dog that couldn't get through a seasoned test.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have not seen posts where Lardy's flowchart is recommended for someone who uses another program. If you are following Smartworks use his flow chart. Same with Fowldogs. 

Where I have seen and recommended Lardy's flow chart is when someone says "What's next?" or something similiar. I have also recommended to get one of the above three programs and stay with it.

I have also consistently said that some beginners find Smartworks easier to follow.

Finally, I don't think it is possible to develop a written flow chart that is in such detail that a beginner could pick it up, read it, understand it completely and train a competitive dog from just that. But I do think that the Lardy, Graham flow charts are about as good as you're going to get. Taken with their dvds you will have the ability to train a dog whether you are a beginner or an experienced hand. But you can't just watch them once, but study them and follow.

Before we had training videos all we had to follow was written books by Wolters, James Lamb Free, etc. Now that was more difficult.

Edit: And I should have said books and RJ articles to accompany the dvds.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

captainjack said:


> Believe me, the pro I worked with is not one that would give you any insight into Lardy's training philosophy.


So you mixed programs?


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

CJ 
I didnt have problems with flow chart for obedience and transition. I got confused in Advanced and think maybe it may confuse others, as what should I work on and should I do thinngs (like running the side of a hill) for a week or is when ever Im lucky enough to find the right spot do it. Cant train on the same ptoperty all the time.
I think my point is. Do you stick with one concept for a week or two, or just mix them up and take advantage of the oppurtunities. Maybe work on the fading with the hill one day, then the next day at another place without a hill, work on no no drills, then a few days later at another place something else.
Thanks for any input


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> I don't think Lardy's flow chart was meant to stand alone. It was originally included in one of his retriever journal articles. By the way, if you buy the $25 article compilation (the first one), it provides a step-by-step, paint-by-numbers, knucklehead proof program for training retrievers to a high level.


I agree. Have either of you even looked at any other written or DVD material other than the Flow Chart? It's one thing to pick out a program, but if all you are willing to do is print out the flow chart and have no pro or experienced training partners to work with, you are going to have problems understanding the program.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> I don't think Lardy's flow chart was meant to stand alone. It was originally included in one of his retriever journal articles. By the way, if you buy the $25 article compilation (the first one), it provides a step-by-step, paint-by-numbers, knucklehead proof program for training retrievers to a high level.


I have a friend that purchased these articles and trained his own dog. He has his dog running MH tests (has 2 passes) and went through JH and SH with only 1 test failed. And he failed the one test because he was told he could only handle once in a SH test. He took that to mean he could only give one cast. So he gave the one cast and that was it.

If he would have spent the $ on the DVDs his dog would be even better.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Brad said:


> CJ
> I didnt have problems with flow chart for obedience and transition. I got confused in Advanced and think maybe it may confuse others, as what should I work on and should I do thinngs (like running the side of a hill) for a week or is when ever Im lucky enough to find the right spot do it. Cant train on the same ptoperty all the time.
> I think my point is. Do you stick with one concept for a week or two, or just mix them up and take advantage of the oppurtunities. Maybe work on the fading with the hill one day, then the next day at another place without a hill, work on no no drills, then a few days later at another place something else.
> Thanks for any input


This question is tailor made for Dennis Voigt's Retrievers ONLINE publication. This is the single best source for training information beyond the core program. There are many articles addressing your exact question. Check it out. It is not free though. I mention that because I don't want anyone to think that I'm suggesting that there is a way to do this without spending a couple bucks.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

You understood terminology Glenn. That is the point.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks, I have been meaning to subscribe


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

bjoiner said:


> So you mixed programs?


I absolutely mixed programs. That's how I know so well what a disaster it is.

That same dog that couldn't pass a seasoned test is running AA setups with my other dogs. I took him back through the Lardy TRT program from day one formal obedience. He has too many issue to be competitive but on occasion he will absolutely smoke a big setp.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I have not seen posts where Lardy's flowchart is recommended for someone who uses another program. If you are following Smartworks use his flow chart. Same with Fowldogs.
> 
> Where I have seen and recommended Lardy's flow chart is when someone says "What's next?" or something similiar. I have also recommended to get one of the above three programs and stay with it.
> 
> ...


 M

way to go. welcome, you will find a lot of good hints here. Like all projects you need a plan. What is yours? A suggestion, on Mike lardys site he has a training flow chart. On this site on a link it has terms and what they mean. Dont make the mistake of saying you just want a meat dog!!! No such thing. Only levels of trained dogs. "The better trained the more fun for you and
your dog. Get a training program and follow it, ask for help, be kind to your dog. have fun go slow




Throwin me under the buss in a monsoon Wayne . This is one I could find on my phone not ref. a program. Anyways in my mind it just boils down to answer the question by the "OP" and keep the unneeded sarcasm/B.S. to yourself. After all its not your dog. We are all just looking for advice not attitudes.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

claimsadj said:


> Ding ding. If you had trained dogs glen then you understand the terminology. Surely your pro worked with you so you wouldnt be lost. That makes a flow chart easier to dissect.


The only piece of advice I remember getting from the pro was don't send the dog with "back" on a mark and burn the heck out of him if he touches land.

I tried The Wildrose Way, Farmer/Aycock Problems and Solutions, The 10 Minute Retriever, The 10 Minute Retriever sequal (forget actual name), Evan Graham's Smart Fetch, Evan Graham's Litteral Casting, Dobb's Trained Retrieve, etc...

I understand the flow chart and have a fairly good understanding of TRT. TRM. TeCC because I committed the time and effort (and money) to actualy purchase the products, and watch them over and over and over until I thought I understood, then I went to a Lardy Workshop, then I watched them some more and studied some more, and then I purchased the RJ articles and read and studied those. Then I purchased TRT2 and watched it over and over......


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Sorry CJ,
Think your getting dog piled.
I appreciate anyones advice and time to try and help


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

BM, I didn't find any inconsistencies with what I said and your quote. I am sorry that you took my comments as sarcasim and attitude. They are my opinion and beliefs.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> BM, I didn't find any inconsistencies with what I said and your quote. I am sorry that you took my comments as sarcasim and attitude. They are my opinion and beliefs.


I can fully appreciate that Wayne. Under no circumstances have any of your posts or replies been viewed as that there are a few on here that just dont realize they are being arse's now and then to some beginners. You have always been fair.

I Didn't meen anything by the monsoon comment other than I did have tornadoe sirens going off around me and swirling rain when I was typing that. All over now and all is good


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

blackasmollases said:


> I can fully appreciate that Wayne. Under no circumstances have any of your posts or replies been viewed as that there are a few on here that just dont realize they are being arse's now and then to some beginners. You have always been fair.


I don't know who the "few" are that you are referring to, but I assure you that I absolutely do realize when I am being an arse and then some.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

To everyone on here I am sorry just sometimes it gets my goat the way some of the replies sound. Maybe im reading them wrong. Or maybe I'm right. Either way I am under the impression this site is here to help not belittle.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Charles C. said:


> By the way, if you buy the $25 article compilation (the first one), it provides a step-by-step, paint-by-numbers, knucklehead proof program for training retrievers to a high level.


DING DING DING!!!

If you cant understand and successfully apply what is laid out in these articles then you are probably so dense that you don't know which end of a dog smells and which end stinks

I have almost every retriever training product ever produced or printed {$1000's & 1000's worth} and this little {$24.95}compilation is worth more than all the rest of them combined. That is especially applicable to newcomers to training

BUY IT!!!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Brad said:


> Thanks, I have been meaning to subscribe


To give you a little insight into what you will see...
In the off season, Dennis has themed training for a week or so on a particular skill. Maybe a week on short bird marking. Then a week on long retired guns. For holding a side hill, you may want to do a 3 peat land blind setup angling a hillside followed by three marks that work on the same concept. During the test/trial season, you need a more balanced approach and can't afford to spend all your training time on such a narrow focus. 

I recommend reviewing the index of past articles and purchasing back issues that address immediate needs along with a subscription.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

mjh345 said:


> DING DING DING!!!
> 
> If you cant understand and successfully apply what is laid out in these articles then you are probably so dense that you don't know which end of a dog smells and which end stinks
> 
> ...


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

captainjack said:


> To give you a little insight into what you will see...
> In the off season, Dennis has themed training for a week or so on a particular skill. Maybe a week on short bird marking. Then a week on long retired guns. For holding a side hill, you may want to do a 3 peat land blind setup angling a hillside followed by three marks that work on the same concept. During the test/trial season, you need a more balanced approach and can't afford to spend all your training time on such a narrow focus.
> 
> I recommend reviewing the index of past articles and purchasing back issues that address immediate needs along with a subscription.


Thanks, What I seem to be doing is bouncing back and forth on concepts, because of limmited training grounds and wonder if Im teaching anything by doing that


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

People who have put in the time and paid their dues get annoyed by people who seem to want to be spoon-fed everything now now now, or to be told by someone new to the game that they have a brand new never been done before going to change the retriever world way of doing things. Go for it, check back in when ya got the proof to back it up. Dog training is work. You can go to school and learn the theory, but you have to get in the field to learn how to apply that theory. There are no short cuts, no one size fits all, and you better learn to have some thick skin and less ego, because there is a world of disappointment and failure, money, sweat, tears, behind every ribbon you might earn. Some manners help too, dog people really dislike those that bite the hand that tries to feed them, while good effort is appreciated and rewarded.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> People who have put in the time and paid their dues get annoyed by people who seem to want to be spoon-fed everything now now now, or to be told by someone new to the game that they have a brand new never been done before going to change the retriever world way of doing things. Go for it, check back in when ya got the proof to back it up. Dog training is work. You can go to school and learn the theory, but you have to get in the field to learn how to apply that theory. There are no short cuts, no one size fits all, and you better learn to have some thick skin and less ego, because there is a world of disappointment and failure, money, sweat, tears, behind every ribbon you might earn. Some manners help too, dog people really dislike those that bite the hand that tries to feed them, while good effort is appreciated and rewarded.



Good stuff.

For those seeking argument.

There is no one size fits all.

Please don't think that CJ, MJH, or anyone else is telling you that there's only one way to do it.

I get the idea that MJH, CJ and others have been there-done that on trying it other ways. I know I did. I had several dogs that I trained pre-Lardy and they were the unfortunate recipients of less fair training than my current pack.

I choose the Lardy way. I don't really care what others do - I just know what has worked extremely well for me.

Here's another thing: I have never, ever heard of a single person that has attended a Mike Lardy workshop and had complaints or negative comments. That says something..... That says a lot.

Chris


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Rainmaker said:


> People who have put in the time and paid their dues get annoyed by people who seem to want to be spoon-fed everything now now now, or to be told by someone new to the game that they have a brand new never been done before going to change the retriever world way of doing things. Go for it, check back in when ya got the proof to back it up. Dog training is work. You can go to school and learn the theory, but you have to get in the field to learn how to apply that theory. T*here are no short cuts, no one size fits all, and* *you better learn to have some thick skin and less ego, because there is a world of disappointment and failure, money, sweat, tears, behind every ribbon you might earn. *Some manners help too, dog people really dislike those that bite the hand that tries to feed them, while good effort is appreciated and rewarded.


Amen to that. Well said.
Glen and Wayne try to help. More than most. And, yet somehow, their effort in not enough.
Is it any wonder, most people don't even try..


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> For those seeking argument.
> 
> ...


I totally agree Chris. My biggest prob. with some on here is the way in which they state their reply. I'll take advice or constructive criticism any day but don't go out of your way to call me stupid is all I'm saying...........


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

We're in the same boat. I'll be checking this out.


Brad said:


> Thanks, What I seem to be doing is bouncing back and forth on concepts, because of limmited training grounds and wonder if Im teaching anything by doing that


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

_The value of the chart _[flowchart]_ is not that it shows you how to train, but that it gives you a specific roadmap for how to progress.
_
-- Mike Lardy, _The Retriever Journal_, August/September 2004


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

blackasmollases said:


> Totally agree on that also. Might as well be written in Vietnamese for a true beginner. All to easy to say its easy to follow after you have used it for a few dogs. And forget about the help you received from others. Just my opinion.


I can see that. I was midway through my second dog when the Lardy tape came out, and the people I learned through were Carr based trainers, so the steps were already familar to me. The thing that affected me the most were Lardy's general approach and philosophy.

John


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

blackasmollases said:


> mjh345 said:
> 
> 
> > DING DING DING!!!
> ...


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## Gunner's Dad (Jul 18, 2012)

First, I'm learning that dog training is hard. My degree is in psychology, and ill dog training is basic conditioning. however that jump from theory to application is a big one. For me.training a rat to complete a three button series was easier than traing my dog. But maybe I'm just a dumb psychologis. Second if the information is easy to understand isn't that a good thing, like a real good thing. Or should I get some information that I don't understand


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

mjh345 said:


> blackasmollases said:
> 
> 
> > Hey BlackasMolasses I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, I was just using that crude visual as an example of how easy to understand I feel they are. They are wonderfully written, short concise and easy to understand. They also are self proofing and give you ways to know that you are ready to move to the next step; and tell you pitfalls that may crop up and how to handle them and even better yett how to avoid them happening
> ...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Buy it and use it. If after a month or two, or how ever long you choose you decide that you can't understand it or relate to it then let me know and I'll buy it from you for what you paid and give it to someone else whom I think could use it.


You get an offer like that from mjh and you turn it down. You smack Wayne who is the kindest, most helpful, patient person on RTF and say "and keep the unneeded sarcasm/B.S. to yourself" so what is your agenda? If you came here for hints there are no easy shortcuts. You need to dig down and read the literature until you understand it. I don't know how old your puppy/dog is, but with that pedigree you owe him a proven program or you will create a hole real deep, real quick because they are smart.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> You get an offer like that from mjh and you turn it down. You smack Wayne who is the kindest, most helpful, patient person on RTF and say "and keep the unneeded sarcasm/B.S. to yourself" so what is your agenda? If you came here for hints there are no easy shortcuts. You need to dig down and read the literature until you understand it. I don't know how old your puppy/dog is, but with that pedigree you owe him a proven program or you will create a hole real deep, real quick because they are smart.


Nancy you to my reply back to Wayne totally wrong i was simply stating what bothers me about some replies. The sarcasm and bs quote was not directed at him. I reread my post and it seems clear to me and I hope Wayne didnt take it the wrong way. As for the offer on the program thats great but I dont need it right now. And if i did I would buy it. And thanks for the concern on my pup he is getting ready to go into some very good hands for awhile. I did not purchase this dog thinking I new enough to train him to the level he could possibly go.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

blackasmollases said:


> mjh345 said:
> 
> 
> > I will put some serious thought into getting the program for my next dog. I've already chosen a different path for my current dog.
> ...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> You get an offer like that from mjh and you turn it down. You smack Wayne who is the kindest, most helpful, patient person on RTF and say "and keep the unneeded sarcasm/B.S. to yourself" so what is your agenda? If you came here for hints there are no easy shortcuts. You need to dig down and read the literature until you understand it. I don't know how old your puppy/dog is, but with that pedigree you owe him a proven program or you will create a hole real deep, real quick because they are smart.


I agree wholeheartedly Nancy but sadly I feel all of all our typed words will be for naught.
To one line address some points that leaped out in all of this.
A retriever program flow chart is like…….. A poster in the lobby of a movie theater.
If way back in the ‘80’s when you saw your first Star Wars movie poster. The one with a light saber and Jaba the Hut. You also probably thought it was foreign, made no sense, until you saw the movie. If you were to give a movie review for the school paper by only looking at the poster in the lobby. Then you would be laughed out of the lunch room the next day. Also if you used that Star Wars movie poster to describe a totally different movie that just happened to have an Alien, say E.T. you would be thrown off of the short bus. 
And to the folks who would comment on a movie, just from the lobby poster. Or say how ineffective the poster is, when used to describe another movie. Or comment on how they do not understand, but had no plans to see the movie at all. ? ? ?
For Real Players?
HUH!?!?


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> blackasmollases said:
> 
> 
> > Hey BAM, I noticed that your dog Strap is around 4 months old, or younger. When my current lab was your pup's age, I was going back and reviewing all of my dog training books, and getting new ones. Frankly, I was unsure if I was yet comfortable putting an e-collar in my hands. (I'd trained some "Master Level" dogs already in the HT game - Amish. I got the Lardy VHS tapes when they first came out and used to rationalize that my way was "just as good", or "better" back then)
> ...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

blackasmollases said:


> Chris Atkinson said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Chris. As far as *i can recall i never once said i wouldnt use the lardy program*. I've got three other programs I am watching right now just trying to absorb some knowledge and pick what program best fits me and my next Dog. My current pup did just turn 5 mos. and we are currently working on the hillman program from there he wil be going to a pro. As I stated to Nancy. I bought this pup knowing he should have the best training I could provide and that is what I am doing. I probably will buy the lardy material also to review just havent gotten there yet. My original argument wasnt one program is better than another it was maybe some of the sarcastic replys to previous "not limited to this thread" could be given without the "your an idiot you don't know what you're doing" feel to them.
> ...


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> I agree wholeheartedly Nancy but sadly I feel all of all our typed words will be for naught.
> To one line address some points that leaped out in all of this.
> A retriever program flow chart is like…….. A poster in the lobby of a movie theater.
> If way back in the ‘80’s when you saw your first Star Wars movie poster. The one with a light saber and Jaba the Hut. You also probably thought it was foreign, made no sense, until you saw the movie. If you were to give a movie review for the school paper by only looking at the poster in the lobby. Then you would be laughed out of the lunch room the next day. Also if you used that Star Wars movie poster to describe a totally different movie that just happened to have an Alien, say E.T. you would be thrown off of the short bus.
> ...


ken I never once said I wasnt going to see the movie.. I am kinda curious how my original reply about dropping some of the sarcasm out of some of thethe replies might not be a bad thing. Maybe im reading into some of it wrong.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

blackasmollases said:


> ken I never once said I wasnt going to see the movie..



post 122.
'member, all we know is what you tell us 'bout your plans.
some of us read every word folks give us.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> My current pup did just turn 5 mos. and we are currently working on the hillman program from there he wil be going to a pro.


So all this time you were sending your pup to a pro. What program does your pro use?


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> So all this time you were sending your pup to a pro. What program does your pro use?



That I can't answer I let the accomplishments and references make my choice. And if it is Lardy based im sure they will help me to understand.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Many pro trainers are what some may call blunt. They may not have time to stroke the owners ego when they need to point out a handling error. Thick skin is a plus.


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

You have nice puppy. Which program are you using.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Pheona, if this question was directed at me I am using the Hillman puppy program. It is a little pricey but I really like it. From there for this pup im sending to a pro. I didn't buy this awesome little guy to cut my teeth on. I'll save that for the next one. I just wanted to have what I thought was the best I could get. And supply him with the best training I could give him. And along the way gain knowledge on training and handling.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

*Lardy Articles from Retriever Journal*

mjh345 (or anyone else who may know),

Can you tell me when Mike Lardy's series of training articles in The Retriever Journal started and when they ended? I may be able to dig them out of my archieves if I know what date or issue number they started and ended.

Thanks!

Swack


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Nobody wants to work anymore. Instant gratification. Just watch a video and now my dog is an FC. News flash, you can't learn to train a dog from a video, but it sure as hell will get you to phase B

/paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Nobody wants to work anymore. Instant gratification. Just watch a video and now my dog is an FC. News flash, you can't learn to train a dog from a video, but it sure as hell will get you to phase B
> 
> /paul


You must not have read the thread closley enough Paul. They ain't watching the DVD, they're just looking at the flow charts.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Nobody wants to work anymore. Instant gratification. Just watch a video and now my dog is an FC. News flash, you can't learn to train a dog from a video, but it sure as hell will get you to phase B
> 
> /paul


It is not that easy!!!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Swack said:


> mjh345 (or anyone else who may know),
> 
> Can you tell me when Mike Lardy's series of training articles in The Retriever Journal started and when they ended? I may be able to dig them out of my archieves if I know what date or issue number they started and ended.
> 
> ...


Swack, I loaned my RJ articles volume 1 so don't know the issue dates for the set that can be purchased (I think around 1995). These articles have been reprinted 1st step was December 2008/January 2009 and Mike has added his current thoughts on each step in the process.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Starts Oct/Nov 95 for Vol I and ends Vol III Nov/Dec 2003 with one in Oct/Nov 2005. I think they are consecative.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

PhilBernardi said:


> _The value of the chart _[flowchart]_ is not that it shows you how to train, but that it gives you a specific roadmap for how to progress.
> _
> -- Mike Lardy, _The Retriever Journal_, August/September 2004


Thanks Phil. This is exactly what a flow chart does!!!! Lardy has laid this out systematically for a reason. He has had years of experience and after teaching, training and handling an appreciable number of retrievers this is what he says will simplify your experience and assist you. IMHO it is a great resource to follow. It is a bonus if you have Volume one, the other volumes and even better the DVD's TRT and TRM. Yes I have D. Voigt's DVD and Retriever's online magazine (invaluable) and Stawski's DVD as well to compliment my library!!! My first retriever was trained using James Lamb Free's book and assistance of some HRC fellows. Boy have we come along ways!!!!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

For the "Chartist" type of investor and the more cerebral among you, search out John Cavanaugh's chart Dogs Hard Wired.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Im out of this thread apparently noboby gets what my original post was about. And I'll be damned if I ever asked anyone for a step by step method. Anyone that gathered that from anything ive ever posted on here is apparently reading something I did not type. I work my a*# off everyday just like I assume you all do to come home and work with my dogs every night. I'm not asking for a givme just advice and be somewhat civilized in the way you give it period. If it is that big of a bother to you than don't do it. Happy training.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Dude! Don't sweat it. Since you're sending your dog off to a pro the heart ache and disappointment hasn't even started yet. Lol


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Im out of this thread apparently noboby gets what my original post was about.


Go back and read your posts. In post #79 you said you had a pro, and by post 132 you haven't chosen him yet, so you don't know what program he is using. What program is your pro in post #79 using?


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> Go back and read your posts. In post #79 you said you had a pro, and by post 132 you haven't chosen him yet, so you don't know what program he is using. What program is your pro in post #79 using?


Against my better judgement I am going to post again. Nancy were in either post did I say I had a pro and now don't? From the day I picked this little guy up I had a plan and the breeder was made aware of it that day and it has stayed that way ever since. I apologize if my writing is unclear. Anymore quetions about me or my dog call me @ 219-405-4165 or come to my house Im more than willing to sit down and discuss all your worries about what I'm doing. Thank you and good night. Ringer is turned up.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have no worries about what your doing. I've spent a lifetime training dogs and my worry is how do I continue to improve, how do I do the best thing for the dog in front of me, how do I do that with better success for the dog. When I forced fetched dog 100 I thought crap, I don't know anything. When you get all the dogs out everyday and quit feeling that way, it's time to quit.


/paul


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I have no worries about what your doing. I've spent a lifetime training dogs and my worry is how do I continue to improve, how do I do the best thing for the dog in front of me, how do I do that with better success for the dog. When I forced fetched dog 100 I thought crap, I don't know anything. When you get all the dogs out everyday and quit feeling that way, it's time to quit.
> 
> 
> /paul


Truer words never spoken.


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