# Best Young Dog Trainer For Trials



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Ok, we all know JVE is the MAN so he is out.
Since Mike Ough and several others have changed jobs.
Who would you send your pup to for Derby or all age training
if you want an all age dog? Who is the new MAN if there is one?

Gregg Leonard


----------



## SusanF (Jul 24, 2005)

Adam Casto in TX.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

If you are looking for someone to train and run your dog, Kenny Trott has a very nice string of young dogs.


----------



## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

Charlie moody in Louisville , MS


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Don't know why VanEngen would be out.... he's consistently produced some of the best of the best. As well as Bruce Curtis. Both have their strengths, although I have never, as of yet, had a young dog with Bruce. 

Any time I've tried to deviate, it's never been good. Except putting Valor with Andy Attar, who is excellent at young dogs - he doesn't usually do them - it was an extreme favor.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Clint Avant is doing quite well in the minor stakes, a force to be reckoned with I have been told.....

.........But from start to finish you have to go a long way to beat Black River Retrievers and even after the loss of Mike Ough perhaps Sandhill Kennel.

john


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> *Don't know why VanEngen would be out*.... he's consistently produced some of the best of the best. As well as Bruce Curtis. Both have their strengths, although I have never, as of yet, had a young dog with Bruce.
> 
> Any time I've tried to deviate, it's never been good. Except putting Valor with Andy Attar, who is excellent at young dogs - he doesn't usually do them - it was an extreme favor.


What do you mean, you "Don't know why VanEngen" is out. Because the OP is acknowledging JVE is "the MAN". He wants to hear about the other young dog folks.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Looks like Clint avant is doing a very good job. What about Tim Milligan? Don't know anything about the guy but Frances Landry seems to put dogs on derby list every year


----------



## Labs a mundo (Mar 20, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> If you are looking for someone to train and run your dog, Kenny Trott has a very nice string of young dogs.


He would be my 1st choice.


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Susan, you know that you just don't call and put your
pup on JVE's truck or andy's. thats why I said JVE is out.


----------



## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Tim Milligan and Charlie Moody


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Mark Madore for basics and then on to Jim Gonia wouldn't be a bad choice.


----------



## JTS (Apr 29, 2005)

I would keep an eye on.....................

Jimmie Darnell.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

If you you think Mike O was a good dog trainer you don't yet know what really goes on.


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Howard N said:


> Mark Madore for basics and then on to Jim Gonia wouldn't be a bad choice.


I'd second mark for basics and jim for big dogs.


----------



## g_fiebelkorn (Jul 31, 2006)

golfandhunter said:


> Who would you send your pup to for Derby or all age training
> if you want an all age dog? Who is the new MAN if there is one?
> 
> Gregg Leonard


I like Rick Stawski -- he starts from the "get go" to lay the ground work for a pup to become an all-age dog. Emphasis is on training for long term results.


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Breck said:


> If you you think Mike O was a good dog trainer you don't yet know what really goes on.


breck,
tell us, what really goes on?


----------



## Terry A (Jul 1, 2003)

I second Tim and Charles. They do a great job.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Yeah, I'll give my money to Clay all day. Period.


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Breck said:


> If you you think Mike O was a good dog trainer you don't yet know what really goes on.


Well Breck, I don't know where you get off on knocking Mike Ough.
My guess is the Sandhill Boys have roughed you up a bit?

Mike Ough, won 10 Derby's in 2011. I guess it was Hugh in disguise?

The thread is about positive comments on people that train young dogs
not about doragatory BS flowing from your pie hole.


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> If you are looking for someone to train and run your dog, Kenny Trott has a very nice string of young dogs.


Kenny is training 2 of our Shaq-Ruby puppies -- Stanley and Ruby Sue. They are very young; 1 year old on Christmas Day. He bought Stanley and has had him since it was 8 weeks old. 

Helen


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Helen, Do you and Don go to Colorado to train in the summer with Kenny?


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

golfandhunter said:


> Mike Ough, won 10 Derby's in 2011.


I think he was tie with Clint Avant so It may have been twelve.

Before you guys go out on too many more limbs, check out ALL of their records here http://www.retrieverresults.com/#/Ranking

john


----------



## Bustin' (Jun 5, 2007)

If your looking for a well mannered dog at line and stylish in their work Tim Springer is hands down in my book! Pretty good completion rate at the Master National! Putting a golden on the derby list, and Qaa dogs thoughout the year. Wish my wife would let me spend some money!!!!!!


----------



## jgrammer (Jun 23, 2008)

I have been mighty happy with Carol Kackelmeyer/Ann Simeon for basics and Rob Erhardt from then on.


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

john fallon said:


> I think he was tie with Clint Avant so It may have been twelve.
> 
> Before you guys go out on too many more limbs, check out ALL of their records here http://www.retrieverresults.com/#/Ranking
> 
> john


Thanks John, I did not stop to look. Breck's comment is ridiculous.
I had a dog on Mike's truck and he put her on the Derby list in 4 months.
Mike did and still continues to praise his peers.

I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of Mike Ough!!!
If and when he comes back I look forward to watching him
show Breck what goes on. Can you say _SS whipping. LOL


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Many of the "good" dog trainers have a waiting list, so if you are planning to get your dog on the truck you should check in advance. Some are booked a year in advance.

I would try to find someone in your area so you can go and see how the training is done. IMO it is good to watch several different trainers so you see how each one trains and choose one that uses methods that suit you. We've been burned by sending our dogs too far away where we can't see what is going on, and that won't happen again!

In our area, we are fortunate to have several good young-dog trainers--VanEngen, Curtis, Stawski, Springer, Ketzner, just to name a few.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

golfandhunter said:


> Susan, you know that you just don't call and put your
> pup on JVE's truck or andy's. thats why I said JVE is out.


 
Hey- I used to think that. NO one knew who I was, why would they take a dog from me. (Honor is my first trial dog). But, that's how relationships get started. With JVE, I went to one of his seminars with my Gavel as a young dog. We were way behind (my young dog trainer in Texas was full). He liked him. Gavel found his way to the 250 yard mark, ins and outs in water. We had never done a mark that far. We had been limited to parks and cemetaries. Jim knew I had a relationship with another trainer and respected that. He offered to help me with the dog, out of the kindness of his heart. I asked him about putting him there. He took him. No one knew me at all at that time. 

With Andy, you just have to call repetitively (that's Andy and a lot of other trainers. ).

That's what starts the relationship.

With you being in Georgia, I was just thinking you could actually see your dog some times! And yes, they do have waiting lists...... so I call when the pup is born.


----------



## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

golfandhunter, I agree that Mike is a great guy and talented young dog trainer but if you're happy with how he's been trained, I wouldn't pull him from Sandhill just because Mike is leaving. Hugh and Al run a great program and will replace Mike with another talented young trainer most likely. Until then, Hugh, Al and Jason will train your dog well. 

I also second what Susan says about building relationships. Right place right time also has a lot to do with it. If you are set on moving your dog, a phone call will will start the process. I've seen people place dogs with folks like JVE, Andy, etc. with nothing more than a phone call. Sometimes they're booked, sometimes not. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


----------



## John Daniels (Jan 1, 2012)

JTS said:


> I would keep an eye on.....................
> 
> Jimmie Darnell.


x 2

That's where my pup went.


----------



## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Mark Smith.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I think alot of really good dogs have been started by frank Baird and mike cicero


----------



## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Mark Madore for basics and then on to Jim Gonia wouldn't be a bad choice.



X2! can't go wrong here!


----------



## Dave S (Aug 21, 2009)

Mark Edwards is someone to consider. Great person and one of the hardest working pros I have seen. You won't be dissappointed. Goes to CO every summer to escape the Texas heat.


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> Hey- I used to think that. NO one knew who I was, why would they take a dog from me. (Honor is my first trial dog). But, that's how relationships get started. With JVE, I went to one of his seminars with my Gavel as a young dog. We were way behind (my young dog trainer in Texas was full). He liked him. Gavel found his way to the 250 yard mark, ins and outs in water. We had never done a mark that far. We had been limited to parks and cemetaries. Jim knew I had a relationship with another trainer and respected that. He offered to help me with the dog, out of the kindness of his heart. I asked him about putting him there. He took him. No one knew me at all at that time.
> 
> With Andy, you just have to call repetitively (that's Andy and a lot of other trainers. ).
> 
> ...





Brian Cockfield said:


> golfandhunter, I agree that Mike is a great guy and talented young dog trainer but if you're happy with how he's been trained, I wouldn't pull him from Sandhill just because Mike is leaving. Hugh and Al run a great program and will replace Mike with another talented young trainer most likely. Until then, Hugh, Al and Jason will train your dog well.
> 
> I also second what Susan says about building relationships. Right place right time also has a lot to do with it. If you are set on moving your dog, a phone call will will start the process. I've seen people place dogs with folks like JVE, Andy, etc. with nothing more than a phone call. Sometimes they're booked, sometimes not. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


Hey Susan, Brian, Bob and Ann, Thanks for your comments but you've got 
it all wrong.I started this thread out of curiosity of peoples opinions and some
friends who were going to put pups with Mike Ough. My blf Reese just finished her Derby career with Mike, she aged out 10-3-11. She has been 
home for 2 months duck hunting with me and is going back to Sandhill this week to train for Quals.i have all the confidence in the world in Al, Hugh and
Jason. It's about 2 1/2 hrs. drive to sandhill which I visit often.

Also,My new blf pup Jesse is 6 months old and is going to Jim Van Engen's truck in 2 weeks. I am really excited and feel honored to have a slot with Jim.
I took about a year to get on board.They winter in Thomasville,Ga. which is
about 4 hrs. drive which I plan on making alot.

I have been very fortunate with Reese being my first trial dog and earning
13 pts. with Mike in 6 months.Hope little Jesse excells with Jim.
I really want to be out there running with all you folks in the AM

Sincerely,
Gregg Leonard


----------



## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

Bruce Halverson of Crosswind Retrievers. Bruce had a very good success rate at the MN and QAA'd 4 or 5 dogs this year. He has my young Shaq pup in Georgia this winter, and we're hoping for some Derby Ribbons!


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

I would put Malcolm Sykes on the list. In 2011 I judged 2 D/Qs. Malcolm took 1st and 2nd in both Derbies, 1st in both Qs plus a few d/q jams mixed in for good measure. Talented dogs and a smart handler.

Tim


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

John Daniels said:


> x 2
> 
> That's where my pup went.


And one of my grandpups went to Jimmie Darnell as well. Salt of the earth.


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

golfandhunter said:


> Helen, Do you and Don go to Colorado to train in the summer with Kenny?


No, we don't go to Colorado and we have never trained with Kenny. In the summer, we train about 15 miles from where we live at Lake Almanor, CA. 

We do not train with pros, we train with a small group of amateur-owners.

Helen


----------



## TonyK (Oct 11, 2007)

Gregg, I dropped Tuck off with Charlie this week. Tuck is doing good, I hope he matures well. He's gonna be a big fella. How many of that litter is Jim going to have?


----------



## rfinger (Feb 17, 2009)

I think Rod Pfaff has done a very nice job over the past 2 years with a limited string of dogs. He QAA 3 dogs last year and 2 this year. With one at 17 months.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

there is another way to find a young or upcoming pro to train your dog...go ask a reputable pro...find out who apprenticed under that pro, people can hang out a shingle and call themselves a pro, but find out who they may have trained under and may have taught them...for many people that are new to the game, it might serve them better to be dog # 1,2 or 3 on a pro's truck that isnt a circuit name, as opposed to being dog # 20 on an A list pro's truck..spend time with that pro and see if their methods are to your liking, as someone mentioned earlier its about establishing relationships..pick your pro like you pick a pediatrician for your child, you may have to visit a few before you entrust one with your pup


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> it might serve them better to be dog # 1,2 or 3 on a pro's truck that isnt a circuit name, as opposed to being dog # 20 on an A list pro's truck..


Are you implying that a pro gives preferential treatment to certain owner/dogs?


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> If you are looking for someone to train and run your dog, Kenny Trott has a very nice string of young dogs.


Ted,

Would 2 of those "very nice young dogs" to which you are referring be Stanley and Ruby Sue?

They are two puppies from our Shaq-Ruby litter born on Dec. 25 last year. They are now barely 1 year old. Kenny bought Stanley as a puppy and has had him since he was 8 weeks old; a client now owns him, but he lives with Kenny and Marcy and remains in training with them.

Stanley's litter sister Ruby Sue is owned by trialers who live in Colorado who also train in Texas. Ruby Sue is also now in training with Kenny so he has two of our pups.

Actually, 7 of the Shaq-Ruby pups are now with pro trainers -- Mark Madore, Don Remien, Scott Dewey, etc.

Helen


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Howard N said:


> Mark Madore for basics and then on to Jim Gonia wouldn't be a bad choice.


Mark Madore has one of our Shaq-Ruby pups (Rusty) who just turned 1 year old on Dec. 25. 

I don't know Mark's plans for Rusty. I don't know if Rusty will move on to Gonia or not. Mark could keep Rusty and do the transitional and big dog training himself.

Helen


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Are you implying that a pro gives preferential treatment to certain owner/dogs?


*not implying anything of the sort*....but which dog is going to see more birds and more attention, a dog on a truck with 16-20 other dogs or a dog on a truck with only 3 to 4 dogs

When Clint was re entered the sport in early 2002 he needed a pro to run his dog while he was moving his practice from KY to ID..he asked long time pro and friend Bill Fabian for a reference, Bill recommended a young man who had apprenticed with him and was just starting out, Clint flew that young man out to Boise to meet and train with him for a couple of weeks..that young man turned out to be Scott Dewey, he won two consecutive Quals with Mirk and Nola in consecutive trials...


----------



## Jill Chalmers (Mar 9, 2008)

Kenny Trott gets my vote.

My young dog came into Kenny as a Derby dog and at the end of one season was QAA and running Open.

Meg is heading back to Kenny in a couple of weeks.

You cannot go wrong with Kenny. I have seen him work his young dogs and can tell you unequivocally that he has a terrific young dog program that takes them right up the ranks.


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Very happy with what Charlie Moody was able to do with my young dog. Would recommend him for any young dog.


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

I don't have a young dog nor need a young dog trainer, but if I did I'd use Dos Equis!


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I don't have a young dog nor need a young dog trainer, but if I did I'd use Dos Equis!


Hilarious!! What the heck and why not!!

Angie


----------



## John Daniels (Jan 1, 2012)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I don't have a young dog nor need a young dog trainer, but if I did I'd use Dos Equis!


Stay thirsty, my friends.


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I don't have a young dog nor need a young dog trainer, but if I did I'd use Dos Equis!



ken posts a nice pic where he whacks a boat load of greenheads in a boat he was gonna sell six months ago and now he is the most interesting man in the world.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> Are you implying that a pro gives preferential treatment to certain owner/dogs?


I took that statement to mean maybe one or two dogs were better! So if you had a dog with capabilities of a potential FT champion, would pros give preferential treatment if one or two dogs were better than the rest???If they knew a dog was mediocre is their time evenly divided between the mediocre and the dog with more potential!!! Not trying to offend anyone here b/c maybe you don't have to spend the time with the dog with potential as much as you do with a mediocre dog!!!!


----------



## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

golfandhunter said:


> Hey Susan, Brian, Bob and Ann, Thanks for your comments but you've got
> it all wrong.I started this thread out of curiosity of peoples opinions and some
> friends who were going to put pups with Mike Ough. My blf Reese just finished her Derby career with Mike, she aged out 10-3-11. She has been
> home for 2 months duck hunting with me and is going back to Sandhill this week to train for Quals.i have all the confidence in the world in Al, Hugh and
> ...


Good deal Gregg. You can't go wrong with any of those guys above. Good luck.


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

BonMallari said:


> which dog is going to see more birds and more attention, a dog on a truck with 16-20 other dogs or *a dog on a truck with only 3 to 4 dogs*


Oh that latter pro must have a pretty strong following. 

Bon, my dear, do you not realize what you are typing sometimes?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I took that statement to mean maybe one or two dogs were better! So if you had a dog with capabilities of a potential FT champion, would pros give preferential treatment if one or two dogs were better than the rest???If they knew a dog was mediocre is their time evenly divided between the mediocre and the dog with more potential!!! Not trying to offend anyone here b/c maybe you don't have to spend the time with the dog with potential as much as you do with a mediocre dog!!!!


A good pro gives each dog the attention that it needs, and tells a client when the dog will not satisfy that client's expectations.

As for two dogs as opposed to 10 or 20, which pro is better depends on
- Pro skill
- Pro help
- Pro grounds
- Etc.
- Etc.

You can only do so many setups a day with a dog

It is not as though a pro with only 3 dogs is going to give your dog 10 setups a day - or that the pro should do so


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Are you implying that a pro gives preferential treatment to certain owner/dogs?


Bon clarified what he meant, but I was thinking more along the lines of being the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd best dog on a given pro's truck vs. being the 20th best dog.

If your dog is the 20th best dog on a 20 dog truck, what are your chances of beating the 19 better dogs on that truck that you will be running against every weekend? This dog may have a better chance of titling if it went to a pro where he is the 1st or 2nd best dog on the truck and running a different circuit. 

Like some multi-dog owners having dogs with multiple pros. If you have 8 dogs on 1 truck, 4 of those dogs have no chance to place every weekend. 4 dogs on two trucks running different trials, then all have a chance to place.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

JeffLusk said:


> Any given trial you are usually playing against more than 20 dogs, you don't need to be better than any of them. Just have to be better on that given day/weekend.


I was editing as you were typing...


----------



## DKR (May 9, 2003)

Didn't we do this a few weeks ago?


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

roseberry said:


> ken posts a nice pic where he whacks a boat load of greenheads in a boat he was gonna sell six months ago and now he is the most interesting man in the world.


Boat WAS sold. To a friend.


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

captainjack said:


> Like some multi-dog owners having dogs with multiple pros. If you have 8 dogs on 1 truck, 4 of those dogs have no chance to place every weekend. 4 dogs on two trucks running different trials, then all have a chance to place.


Huh? Can you explain that math? No seriously, think about it and see if that truly makes sense to you when looking at the big picture.

Sorry, but "be kind" is SO 2011.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Huh? Can you explain that math? No seriously, think about it and see if that truly makes sense to you when looking at the big picture.
> 
> Sorry, but "be kind" is SO 2011.


Let me break it down so that you can understand.

Each trial awards a max of only 4 places. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. If you have eight dogs entered in one (1) trial, then 4 of those eight are garanteed not to place even if you have the best eight dogs at the trial that day. 8 dogs - 4 potential placements = 4 that are guaranteed not to place.

On the other hand, if you have 8 dogs and 4 are at one trial and 4 are at a different trial, and again you have the best 8 dogs at the two trials that day, then all 8 have an opportunity to place. 4 dogs - 4 potential placements = 0 guranteed not to place. Rinse and Repeat for the 4 at the other trial.

It really is very simple math.


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

captainjack said:


> Let me break it down so that you can understand.
> 
> Each trial awards a max of only 4 places. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. If you have eight dogs entered in one (1) trial, then 4 of those eight are garanteed not to place even if you have the best eight dogs at the trial that day. 8 dogs - 4 potential placements = 4 that are guaranteed not to place.


That is so funny I forgot to laugh. I can't wait until I have a string of dogs that are only competing against themselves. 

BTW, I am very, very good at math, though physics happened to be my favorite.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I don't think there is anybody with 4 dogs guaranteed to place any weekend never mind every weekend. 

I think dogs get on hot streaks like baseball players or any other athlete.

Tiger Woods regards,


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

Howard N said:


> I think dogs get on hot streaks like baseball players or any other athlete.
> 
> Tiger Woods regards,


And there are definitely times when the hotness needs to be reeled in...just sayin.'


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Huh? Can you explain that math? No seriously, think about it and see if that truly makes sense to you when looking at the big picture.
> 
> Sorry, but "be kind" is SO 2011.


You are a piece of work Melanie.
Just can't help it can you?


----------



## Northern Skies (Sep 17, 2010)

Mike Taylor. Trained under Tiernan and Remien. Brings lots of energy and enthusiasm. Although, our dog is young we have been pleased. Lorraine


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> *Huh? Can you explain that math*? No seriously, think about it and see if that truly makes sense to you when looking at the big picture.
> 
> Sorry, but "be kind" is SO 2011.
> 
> ...


Did you understand ?;-)

john


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Melanie Foster said:


> Huh? Can you explain that math? No seriously, think about it and see if that truly makes sense to you when looking at the big picture.
> 
> *Sorry, but "be kind" is SO 2011*.



it sure will be nice to have the old melanie..........uh, i mean former melanie back in 2012!


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:




Originally Posted by Melanie Foster



> Huh? Can you explain that math? No seriously, think about it and see if that truly makes sense to you when looking at the big picture.
> 
> Sorry, but "be kind" is SO 2011.





> Let me break it down so that you can understand...if you have 8 dogs and 4 are at one trial and 4 are at a different trial........................





john fallon said:


> Did you understand ?;-)


What Melanie means, in her satirical way, is maybe some of the posters who have never had a dog on an all age truck themselves, nor ever watched a pro work his truck of dogs and follow several of them at trials, shouldn't be postulating how it all works. Seriously, it's not like that. There are a ton of good pros out there, more than 20 years ago, that bust their butts to work all the dogs on the truck to give them what they need to advance. Ya'll need to go and train for a couple of days with different pros and pick the ones that are rooting for the dogs and where the dogs are happy and advance. Dogs have good days and good streaks and then something else comes up and then they have to be balanced out again. Think about it, if only the best dog won on the truck all the time we would have higher all age points at the end of the year and over a lifetime. Now we have different pros and dogs that win on the weekend. Good dogs have bad days and lesser dogs have great days but an A pro with a string of dogs is going to average near the top.
In addition, I would pick a young dog pro within traveling distance so not only can you observe but run your own dog instead of sending him far away. I like pros that do it all themselves. JMHO.

BTW Bon, where is that easier circuit to send a young pro to for All Age and try and stay in this decade please. Asking Bill Fabian where to go with non-collar conditioned all amateur trained dogs-there's an oxymoron in there somewhere.

The kinder way of 2011 is not working. 2012 should kindly call out the balony that some people continue to post JUST because they CAN.


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Seems easy enough to me. Even if, going with this example, the only 8 dogs that showed up were on this hypothetical pro's truck, it's exceedingly hard to argue with the fact that 4 of them will not place under the current system. I don't think he implied anything about the other 4 being guaranteed to place, but it seems to be a mathematical certainty that 4 won't.



captainjack said:


> Let me break it down so that you can understand.
> 
> Each trial awards a max of only 4 places. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. If you have eight dogs entered in one (1) trial, then 4 of those eight are garanteed not to place even if you have the best eight dogs at the trial that day. 8 dogs - 4 potential placements = 4 that are guaranteed not to place.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Johnny Tootymes has my Lean Mac grandson who is a full sibling to 4 FC's. He is doing doubles with poison bird diversions at 8 months old. 

I'd seriously consider Johnny as there is no doubt he is the best in the country 

Has 14 hole truck but only used 5 holes.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Johnny Tootymes has my Lean Mac grandson who is a full sibling to 4 FC's. He is doing doubles with poison bird diversions at 8 months old.
> 
> I'd seriously consider Johnny as there is no doubt he is the best in the country
> 
> Has 14 hole truck but only used 5 holes.


<sarcastic>Absolutely Gut, that's the one I'd send to. Look at all the work that pup would get.</sarcastic>


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Math is not as simple as it may seem

I hope that everyone reading RTF who has a pro-trained dog - or wants a pro-trained dog - decides to place their dog with a newcomer to the sport with only 3-4 dogs. It will make my life in competition that much easier. 

1. Dog training takes a lifetime to master. Enthusiasm and free time are important, but experience is irreplaceable.
2. The pros with the bigger trucks - that are full and have waiting lists - have spent a lifetime building up their trucks and their reputations. For better or worse, this is a bottom line sport. Bring home the blue, everyone loves you. Bring home the green, people are looking to leave you. The big trucks tend to bring home a lot of blue. 
3. There is a HUGE advantage to running a string of 8+ dogs on a test
- A good handler will learn from each dog he runs
- With that many dogs, some of your dogs will run when conditions are prime
- With some judges, a pro with a big truck can actually set the standard for the blind (not saying it is right or wrong, just saying it is)
4. There is a reason that the big truck got big ... never forget it

That being said, if you want to run your own dogs, then
1. I would look for someone nearby, so that you can get hands on time
2. I would look for someone who would train both me and my dog in a manner that I approve
3. I would get to the line and get to it.


----------



## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

This is great advice! I'm going to do better and place eight dogs with different pros, on different circuits and time zones, for better results. If I find pros with 3-4 dogs, I can have more time to chat with them, but I fear the in-depth training sessions will last all day. The BIG problem comes with trying to decide who will be on my Fav 5 plan.


----------



## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Thank God for Ted. He still try's to help even though others are just throwing crap out there. 

Ted your last 3 bullets are great points. They are also the reasons that I am with the Pro I am with now.


----------



## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

The pro I am using is also getting quite a bit of blue too, just happens to cover my other objectives too!


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Northern Skies said:


> Mike Taylor. Trained under Tiernan and Remien. Brings lots of energy and enthusiasm. Although, our dog is young we have been pleased. Lorraine


That's Patti* Kiernan *but, yes, Mike and his wife Tiffany are young, work extremely hard and are producing results with a small/young string of trial dogs. Mike only had a couple of dogs running quals last year and 2 of them became QAA and had very good finish rates. Same for a couple of derby dogs. He has 4 or 5 pups from the Shaq x Boo litter on the winter trip with him that should be fun to watch later in the year.

Back to Bon's post, I would be extremely offended if I were a pro that someone would insinuate that dog #20 on my truck gets less work that dog #1. I've trained with a couple of pros and never heard them talk about "best" or "worst". ALL the dogs got the time and training that they needed everyday to advance their training, no matter where they were in their development or skill level.


----------



## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

How about Evan Graham?


----------



## Gwen Jones (Jun 19, 2004)

To those who are afraid to put their dog on a Pro truck with multiple FC/AFC's to compete against each weekend - get a [email protected]! When you are with some of the best Pro's in the country, your dog has to come up to that level to be successful and hold their spot on the truck. When you train with National Finalist each week, you train to their level and then have it broken down to the level that you need but the standard is always at the top. We were fortunate to be clients of Blackwater Retriever when Bill Eckett and Bobby George were running a huge string of champions. It was a rush then and a wonderful memory now when we finally began to "beat" our own truck. That is when you knew that you had the potential for a titled dog and were ready to play in the big league.

The origional post wanted names of young dog trainers. A lot have been listed. Make your decision and then get involved. The involvement is more key than anything else. You can watch and learn who works hard and who hardly works. Success is not an accident.


----------



## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> The kinder way of 2011 is not working. 2012 should kindly call out the balony that some people continue to post JUST because they CAN.


I like it!!! But where to start?????


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

smillerdvm said:


> How about Evan Graham?


Evan does not take someone elses dog to train. He trains people to train their own dog.


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

Jim Pickering said:


> I like it!!! But where to start?????


It didn't take me long to figure out where to start. But I am gifted that way.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> That is so funny I forgot to laugh. I can't wait until I have a string of dogs that are only competing against themselves.
> 
> BTW, I am very, very good at math, though physics happened to be my favorite.


Maybe that is your problem... You are good at math and physics and this arithmetic problem is just too simple for you. Either that or you just have no reading comprehension skills.

No one said that you are only competing against yourself. No one said that there are no other dogs on the truck, no one said there are no other FC/AFCs on the truck, and no one said there are no other dogs entered in the trial. My point is that by splitting your 8 dogs between two pros at two different trials you have a possibility to place all eight dogs each and every weekend (that is a possibility to place 100% of your dogs). If all eight were on the same truck at the same trial, the best you could do is to place 4 of your dogs (that is a possibility to place 50% of your dogs). 

In case the word possibility is too difficult for you to understand, start a new thread and ask for help.

Oh, two other things that may help you understand the arithmetic...

First, to calculate %, you simply divide the small number by the big number.
Second, 100% is more than 50%.

I sincerely hope this helps you.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

You split the truck you reduce the strength of the truck exponentially not arithmetically


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> You split the truck you reduce the strength of the truck exponentially not arithmetically


Thank you, Ted. That is just too difficult for some to understand.

I have one dog in training at a time right now. That is what my current budget allows. She is on a truck with a high point open dog, multiple FCs, 100+ all-age point dogs. If I had eight dogs in training, they would all be on that same truck. Why, because the trainer gets results. 

For anyone to think that if I sent four of these hypothetical dogs away that they would have a better chance of placing on any given weekend proves they have no comprehension of what field trials are about. This is not like calculating the chances of what will come up when you roll a pair of dice.


----------



## cdalt (May 9, 2011)

Gwen Jones said:


> To those who are afraid to put their dog on a Pro truck with multiple FC/AFC's to compete against each weekend - get a [email protected]! When you are with some of the best Pro's in the country, your dog has to come up to that level to be successful and hold their spot on the truck. When you train with National Finalist each week, you train to their level and then have it broken down to the level that you need but the standard is always at the top. We were fortunate to be clients of Blackwater Retriever when Bill Eckett and Bobby George were running a huge string of champions. It was a rush then and a wonderful memory now when we finally began to "beat" our own truck. That is when you knew that you had the potential for a titled dog and were ready to play in the big league.
> 
> The origional post wanted names of young dog trainers. A lot have been listed. Make your decision and then get involved. The involvement is more key than anything else. You can watch and learn who works hard and who hardly works. Success is not an accident.


Wow! That is so true! your post reminded me when I was wrestling in college and our team had won 3 National titles. What made are team so great is the depth of our line up. You had to beat the best to make Varsity and you were practicing with the best day in and day out. Steel sharpens steel. In relation to field trials I would want my dog training with the best and holding a high standard even if you have to break it down. Well said Gwen. Surround yourself and your dog training around experienced great trainers and great dogs and you will start to become more like them.


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

cdalt said:


> Wow! That is so true! your post reminded me when I was wrestling in college and our team had won 3 National titles. What made are team so great is the depth of our line up. You had to beat the best to make Varsity and you were practicing with the best day in and day out. Steel sharpens steel. In relation to field trials I would want my dog training with the best and holding a high standard even if you have to break it down. Well said Gwen. Surround yourself and your dog training around experienced great trainers and great dogs and you will start to become more like them.


Yeah cdalt. Someone gets it. :grin:


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Are some of you trying to infer that some A list camps don't split their trucks between two different trials ? 

john


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> My point is that by splitting your 8 dogs between two pros at two different trials you have a possibility to place all eight dogs each and every weekend (that is a possibility to place 100% of your dogs). If all eight were on the same truck at the same trial, the best you could do is to place 4 of your dogs (that is a possibility to place 50% of your dogs).


And where are you in this plan of ownership of 8 all age dogs? Also, you must not ever run, or plan to run the dogs yourself because you can't be in "2" places at once which is not exponentially, spatially, or geographically possible.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Are some of you trying to infer that some A list camps don't split their trucks between two different trials ?
> 
> john


John, I don't think they are inferring that. What they (the "some" you refer to) are saying outright is that they would never do it. They are also not acknowledging the fact that some A list camps do, in fact, split their trucks between trials.

Now, if you would believe the three or four folks telling me I know nothing, these A list camps are full of idiot, no-nothing (or scared) trainers and owners for doing it.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> You split the truck you reduce the strength of the truck exponentially not arithmetically


Can you give us an example of what you mean by that ????

john


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

captainjack said:


> John, I don't think they are inferring that. What they (the "some" you refer to) are saying outright is that they would never do it. They are also not acknowledging the fact that some A list camps do, in fact, split their trucks between trials.
> 
> Now, if you would believe the three or four folks telling me I know nothing, these A list camps are full of idiot, no-nothing (or scared) trainers and owners for doing it.


Oh Glen dear, I forgot to mention my other favorite class was expository writing. I'm so sorry you missed that one when you were in school. It's never too late to go back and learn a new skill you know. Happy New Year and my sincerest best wishes for that upcoming string of trial dogs you have.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> And where are you in this plan of ownership of 8 all age dogs? Also, you must not ever run, or plan to run the dogs yourself because you can't be in "2" places at once which is not exponentially, spatially, or geographically possible.


I own three dogs (all about 3 y.o.)with fair breeding that I run in HTs and FTs. These are the first that I have trained myself (Had a previous HT dog that I sent to a pro for 7 months for basics). I train and handle my own dogs (not in a vacuum). I get what I get, and whatever that is, I did it. Not saying that I wouldn't send a dog to a pro, just saying that I built these dogs, good or bad. I have one of my three dogs Qualified All Age (one Q win) and although she is eligible, I do not run her against my other two in Qs. Yes, running her would give me one more shot to figure out the test (depending on the draw that could help me with the other two) and would give me one more, and a better, chance to win the stake and all of that.

Also, if I could figure out a way to have 8+ dogs with a pro or pros and campaign said dogs at a cost of close to $10,000 a month, I could probably also figure out a way to be in two places at once. Problem solved.;-)


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Oh Glen dear, I forgot to mention my other favorite class was *expository writing*. I'm so sorry you missed that one when you were in school. It's never too late to go back and learn a new skill you know. Happy New Year and my sincerest best wishes for that upcoming string of trial dogs you have.


I read that at first and thought it said suppository writing. But that would be words flowing into your A--, your words are flowing out of your A--. Is there a term for that?

Here we go...
talk out of/through your arse (British & Australian very informal!) also talk out of/through your ass (American & Australian very informal!)
to say things which are stupid or wrong


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

splashbird said:


> Gregg, I dropped Tuck off with Charlie this week. Tuck is doing good, I hope he matures well. He's gonna be a big fella. How many of that litter is Jim going to have?


Tony, I don't know, Chad sold the black male.
Kip, is doing his own,don't know about the others.
I will find out in about a month.
It seems all the pups are energetic and have good prey drive.
Can't wait to see Jesse in person again, its been 4 months.

Gregg


----------



## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

I have heard many good things about Bruce Curtis. He doesn't trial therefore the time spent by most pro's that run the circuits he spends spends training. The client can still take their dog(s) to trials but he will be honest with you if your dog is ready or not.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

captainjack said:


> I read that at first and thought it said suppository writing. But that would be words flowing into your A--, your words are flowing out of your A--. Is there a term for that?
> 
> Here we go...
> talk out of/through your arse (British & Australian very informal!) also talk out of/through your ass (American & Australian very informal!)
> to say things which are stupid or wrong


You couldn't find a way to express yourself without entering the gutter?


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

If I had the money to put 8 dogs with a pro, I wouldn't be posting here right now. That said, I'd have half a truck with my dogs. Then again, I don't have a dog good enough for the food he/she eats. Catch 22 regards. :neutral::neutral:


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> You couldn't find a way to express yourself without entering the gutter?


Nope. Sorry, but the asstute Melanie was correct as always. I didn't have the class in expository writing. So, I figured that if I wanted to communicate with a gutter dweller, that is where I needed to go.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

smillerdvm said:


> How about Evan Graham?


Ahhh, the miracle of the Internet, too much information and too little information...;-)


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Please knock it off.

This thread is locked.

I'm not going to play referee. Knock it off. Let's start this new year off right.

Thanks, Chris


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> Ahhh, the miracle of the Internet, too much information and too little information...;-)


 
Sorry Dr. Ed,

I was typing the "knock it off" post to lock it right when you were submitting yours. As I'm sure you are aware, my post was in no way directed at your post. 

Chris


----------

