# Packleader wins! re: Pat Nolan :)



## Guest (Jan 3, 2010)

Just wanted to make this its own thread so Jamie could be justified.

This is regarding the video where Jamie said Pat was forcing and many of us say he wasn't. This is the swimby video where the dog is casting to crates at the edge of the water.

Here's the response from Pat (public on facebook so I don't think it's a problem posting it here):

"Hi Kristie,

Yes, 
I am forcing to the tables on most sends. I assume I forced when she came off the
table, I do not remember that exactly but generally I will force for that.

As you correctly note the dog had only been swimming two weeks when this session
was filmed, I was still using the collar for most commands forcing or using direct
pressure for most directional commands. 

The dog loved to train, went hard on land a water. She made the derby list,
qualified all age in one of her first couple of Q's and is going to run Open and
Amat this coming spring.

Pat

"


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Thank you very much for that!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ok we see what he said now tell us what he meant by it.

When you said he said Forcing  are you saying he applied collar pressure with or without being preceded by an accompanying verbal command ?

john

BTW He says tables so which video are we really talking about


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

No he is using hand signals and known commands. Back and over are taught by luring first with food or a toy.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> No he is using hand signals and known commands. Back and over are taught by luring first with food or a toy.


A whistle, a hand signal or voice, it matters not, the dog was given a "command" before the collar pressure was applied hence no "cold' collar pressure/correction.

Hand signal Tap Tap Tap Hand signal regards

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Is that not what I have been saying? I don't cold burn..


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Is that not what I have been saying? I don't cold burn..


You are talking in circles so it is hard for us to tell............

If he is 'forcing" on a known command, taught previously by whatever method , at the time of the videos filming, he was not "teaching" with the e-collar . End of story.

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

John,

Did you even read his article? I posted the link..he mentions teaching with the collar instead of a leash. Just because he's not in the video doesn't mean end of story.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You are talking in circles so it is hard for us to tell............
> 
> * If he is forcing on a known command, taught previously by whatever method , at the time of the videos filming, he was not "teaching" with the e-collar .* End of story.
> 
> john


That is exactly right!! Teaching is teaching. Forcing is forcing. In fact. I'm not sure if, by definition, it is possible to force a command that has not been taught.

PL, you have been saying all along you _teach_, and he was _teaching_ the dogs with the collar in that video. Look and listen again. At the 37 second point, he says the dog knows all these drills. That means they have been _previously taught_.

JS


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> John,
> 
> Did you even read his article? I posted the link..he mentions teaching with the collar instead of a leash. Just because he's not in the video doesn't mean end of story.


I read the article. For the recall, he says he puts the e-collar AND a leash on the dog. What is the leash for? HE says it is to guide the dog toward him ... _teach_. Though it's not the way I would do it, nor most of us here (I think) it is still _teaching_. He shows the dog what he wants.

"Teaching with the collar" implies something like negative reinforcement where you would call the dog "here" and push the button. Then, relying on the dog's random behavior, you hold the button down until the dog starts toward you and then release. That is an example of _teaching_ with the collar.

Another example is hot-spotting; correcting a water cheat with a burn when the dog in the wrong spot ... no command, no further information to the dog as to what he should be doing.

JS


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> John,
> 
> Did you even read his article? I posted the link..he mentions teaching with the collar instead of a leash. Just because he's not in the video doesn't mean end of story.


Here is my take on what Pat is doing



john fallon said:


> Join Date: Jun 2003
> Location: Pa.
> Posts: 2,623
> 
> ...


 "


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Because it's not based on things people can take to the bank. Its more about reading the dog than anything. That is how I was able to tell what he was doing..I read dogs for a living i know what I'm looking at.

That alone is what makes me good at it, not by following step by step instructions. Two different trainers using the same methods get different results.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Because it's not based on things people can take to the bank. Its more about reading the dog than anything. That is how I was able to tell what he was doing..I read dogs for a living i know what I'm looking at.
> 
> That alone is what makes me good at it, not by following step by step instructions. Two different trainers using the same methods get different results.


How does this new teaching method mesh with Operant Conditioning ?

By this I mean give me an example.

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I look at it as classical conditioning. Some call it Positive punishment.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Its more about reading the dog than anything. That is how I was able to tell what he was doing..I read dogs for a living i know what I'm looking at......
> 
> That alone is what makes me good at it,......


Oh, well bust my buttons! That’s a horse of a different color! See you did not say you could read dogs. That is why so many here are having some issue understanding you. Sadly nobody here can read a dog………… 
Do you even have a clue how insulting you are being? The old “I can’t explain it to you because you would not understand” may fly with Miss Molly Mini-van as you keep her boxer off the book shelf. But I tell ya smackleader it ain’t gonna fly here.


.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I look at it as classical conditioning. Some call it Positive punishment.


P+?
I'm having a little trouble understanding you, with that* not *being a clasical conditioning term, so perhaps you can expand on your rational for that conclusion?...along with an example of how_* you*_ teach with P+

john


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## Scott Harris (Mar 16, 2005)

Just catching a little of this as the dogs are keeping me busy. It was fun watching Pat teach Robins Malinois the start of swimby by sending him on right hand overs to the over turned crate with hand signals and doing the water work with him as he had never really done anything like that. Fun stuff, better to get out and see I guess for me than the discussions pre training day at the seminar. Take care all.
Scott


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Povlo, ring the dinner bell and the dog comes running. Except in this case the dinner bell is in the collar.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Povlo, ring the dinner bell and the dog comes running. Except in this case the dinner bell is in the collar.


 
Who?????

When spouting off “knowledge” it is often a good thing to get the name of the person who’s work your pretending to understand correct.
Just trying to help ya……… NOT!!!

Btw it’s Ivan Petrovich Pavlov 

.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Except Pavlov used food because it is something a dog naturally desires. Do you believe dogs desire to be shocked in the same way they desire food?









Sorry, I think I'll just stay out of this one.

Evan


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for the correction Ken. I'm not trying to be smart that's simply how I knew. I have never trained with Pat, I never even talked to the man. However I would love nothing more than to meet him.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Evan, I don't shock so I couldn't tell you. Anyone who refers to it that way is seeing it all wrong.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

You said yourself how the dog looked like it was playing a game and just having fun. Now all of a sudden its shocking?


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Oh, well bust my buttons! That’s a horse of a different color! See you did not say you could read dogs. That is why so many here are having some issue understanding you. Sadly nobody here can read a dog…………
> Do you even have a clue how insulting you are being? The old “I can’t explain it to you because you would not understand” may fly with Miss Molly Mini-van as you keep her boxer off the book shelf. But I tell ya smackleader it ain’t gonna fly here.
> 
> 
> .


Was going to stay out - But can't help myself.........

Jamie- how about respond to Ken on this post.????


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Evan, I don't shock so I couldn't tell you. Anyone who refers to it that way is seeing it all wrong.


Okay, 'stimulate' then. What does your e-collar do when you push the button, yell "trick or treat"?

Evan


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

I have to think a CEO would know that electrical stimulation is a shock by definition.
________
COACH PURSES


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

J Hoggatt said:


> Was going to stay out - But can't help myself.........
> 
> Jamie- how about respond to Ken on this post.????





Evan said:


> Okay, 'stimulate' then. What does your e-collar do when you push the button, yell "trick or treat"?
> 
> Evan


I can’t help myself ether. I had convinced myself to just ignore (without the rtf button) after the hay bale thread. But it is like driving by a car crash. You just can’t not look!!!
Evan, that is gosh darn funny right there!

.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Povlo, ring the dinner bell and the dog comes running. Except in this case the dinner bell is in the collar.


The deeper we get into this .....

That my good man is *not* P+(an operant conditioning term) it is *CS*, a clasical term.


> If the CS and the US( unconditioned stimulus )are repeatedly paired, eventually the two stimuli become associated and the organism begins to produce a behavioral response to the CS. Pavlov called this the conditioned response (CR).


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Evan, I don't shock so I couldn't tell you. *Anyone who refers to it that way is seeing it all wrong*.


And I don’t fart, I break wind……. Totally different, ask anyone. 
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

This is turning into a train wreck! Hey Pack leader I'll be on your team!
We'll kick some butt. Hey Bora! Your syrup tastes like Aunt Jemima. You look like a tag team wrestler. Now go away before I taunt you a second time.

Now i gotta go stimulate my dog repeatedly until he goes through that keyhole at 200 yards....WHY ARE YOU YELPING? SHUT UP DOG! *COME BACK HERE!*

Hey! I think we're onto something!


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Evan said:


> Okay, 'stimulate' then. What does your e-collar do when you push the button, yell "trick or treat"?
> 
> Evan


LMAO!!! 

Mine shoots flowers and bandannas! Ryder flees in horror-its adversion training see he hates those bandanna things.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

john fallon said:


> The deeper we get into this .....
> 
> That my good man is *not* P+(an operant conditioning term) it is *CS*, a clasical term.).


You keep reading your books john. I will keep reading the dog..first you argue for 30 post's that the dog doesn't have a collar on. Now you are going to tell me how the dogs getting shocked. 

Admit you were all wrong and move on....


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Povlo, ring the dinner bell and the dog comes running. Except in this case the dinner bell is in the collar.





john fallon said:


> The deeper we get into this .....
> That my good man is *not* P+(an operant conditioning term) it is *CS*, a clasical term.


John,
Ya know those endearing little idiosyncrasies you have that on rare occasion annoy the crap out of me?
Well just put aside anything I have ever said……….. 
sic um John!;-) ….. just sic um!!!!!!!!!


.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> And I don’t fart, I break wind……. Totally different, ask anyone.
> 'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
> Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
> What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
> ...


Someone's syrup is fermenting!   

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> And I don’t fart, I break wind……. Totally different, ask anyone.
> 'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
> Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
> What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
> ...


Why, Ken! Thou waxeth Shakespearian! I didn't know you had it in you, you sly devil!!

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

JS said:


> Someone's syrup is fermenting!
> 
> JS


They say that that syrup goes good with lemon juice.

john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> Why, Ken! Thou waxeth Shakespearian! I didn't know you had it in you, you sly devil!!
> 
> Evan


This threads gotta lot O shake spear in it. 
From King Lear to much ado about nothing. 
And is it such a hard thing to imagine I was in drama club? 
Way back when.;-)

.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> This threads gotta lot O shake spear in it.
> From King Lear to *much ado about nothing*.
> And is it such a hard thing to imagine I was in drama club?
> Way back when.;-)
> ...


Ken,

From here on out, I'll believe nearly anything you say. It's getting to the point that when I see a post has been entered by PL I'm inclined to anticipate *Much ado about nothing*. Hence, I depart into that good night.

Farewell,
Evan


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

john fallon said:


> P+?
> I'm having a little trouble understanding you, with that* not *being a clasical conditioning term, so perhaps you can expand on your rational for that conclusion?...along with an example of how_* you*_ teach with P+
> 
> john


John,

How does FF work?

Just asking. ;-)


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Coulda sworn force fetch was P-.

Am I the only person who feels that there's quite a bit of pilin' on going on in this thread?


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

Howard N said:


> Coulda sworn force fetch was P-.
> 
> Am I the only person who feels that there's quite a bit of pilin' on going on in this thread?


Respectfully disagree-- Read Jamie's responses in total .... This person is over the top and IMO asking for it. --- respectfully to you, but not Packleader. And to think -- This person claims to be a professional. - wow.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This is exactly why Gooser usesTater chips and Cheezy poofs,, and Mrs Gooser straps the collar on Goosers leg just fer fun!!

I call it positivly fattening stimulation!!! (PFS)

And just so Ya'll know,, my collar dont say trick or treat either!!!

So there!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This thread is better than any of the day time soaps!!

Gooser


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

J Hoggatt said:


> Respectfully disagree-- Read Jamie's responses in total .... This person is over the top and IMO asking for it. --- respectfully to you, but not Packleader. And to think -- This person claims to be a professional. - wow.


Well, it seems to me a little like killing the messenger before you hear the message. I have no idea what Jamie does with what kind of dogs.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> John,
> 
> How does FF work?
> 
> Just asking. ;-)


(Escape) occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of an aversive stimulus (commonly seen as unpleasant) thereby increasing that behavior's frequency

I hope that helps

john


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> John,
> 
> How does FF work?
> 
> Just asking. ;-)


FF is R-.

A departure from the overall Carr philosophy.

JS


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

john fallon said:


> (Escape) occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by the removal of an aversive stimulus (commonly seen as unpleasant) thereby increasing that behavior's frequency
> 
> I hope that helps
> 
> john


Isn't that what Pat is doing with the ecollar?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Psychology of BF Skinner

Psychology University

Learning Psychology

Psychology Websites

Behaviorism is a school of thought in psychology that assumes that learning occurs through interactions with the environment. Two other assumptions of this theory are that the environment shapes behavior and that taking internal mental states such as thoughts, feelings, and emotions into consideration is useless in explaining behavior. 

One of the best-known aspects of behavioral learning theory is classical conditioning. Discovered by Russian physiologist Ivan Pavlov, classical conditioning is a learning process that occurs through associations between an environmental stimulus and a naturally occurring stimulus. In order to understand how classical conditioning works, it is important to be familiar with the basic principles of the process.

The Unconditioned Stimulus

The unconditioned stimulus is one that unconditionally, naturally, and automatically triggers a response. For example, when you smell one of your favorite foods, you may immediately feel very hungry. In this example, the smell of the food is the unconditioned stimulus. 

The Unconditioned Response

The unconditioned response is the unlearned response that occurs naturally in response to the unconditioned stimulus. In our example, the feeling of hunger in response to the smell of food is the unconditioned response. 
The Conditioned Stimulus

The conditioned stimulus is previously neutral stimulus that, after becoming associated with the unconditioned stimulus, eventually comes to trigger a conditioned response. In our earlier example, suppose that when you smelled your favorite food, you also heard the sound of a whistle. While the whistle is unrelated to the smell of the food, if the sound of the whistle was paired multiple times with the smell, the sound would eventually trigger the conditioned response. In this case, the sound of the whistle is the conditioned stimulus. 

The Conditioned Response

The conditioned response is the learned response to the previously neutral stimulus. In our example, the conditioned response would be feeling hungry when you heard the sound of the whistle. 

Classical Conditioning in the Real World

In reality, people do not respond exactly like Pavlov's dogs. There are, however, numerous real-world applications for classical conditioning. For example, many dog trainers use classical conditioning techniques to help people train their pets. 

These techniques are also useful in the treatment of phobias or anxiety problems. Teachers are able to apply classical conditioning in the class by creating a positive classroom environment to help students overcome anxiety or fear. Pairing an anxiety-provoking situation, such as performing in front of a group, with pleasant surroundings helps the student learn new associations. Instead of feeling anxious and tense in these situations, the child will learn to stay relaxed and calm. 
More About Classical Conditioning


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> Isn't that what Pat is doing with the ecollar?


Can you be a little more specific ? when ? on which video? at what point?

I am sure that at some point on some viveo he sure is;-)

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Psychology of BF Skinner
> 
> Psychology University
> 
> ...


That's fine Jamie .Now you tell me exactly how that squares with what you are saying that *you do *in the way of teaching with the collar .Using the dinner bell analogy as a starting point of course.



john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

If you have a 9 week old puppy you can use the tone as the dinner bell. Tone reward, tone reward..Wait till they get board and walk away..Tone reward, Tone reward.

If by the third day that dog doesn't come charging for the tone then you are not doing something right. You have just conditioned a behavior with no known command just a cue from the collar. 

You can do the same thing with a low level stimulation. You are not forcing anything. You are giving the dog a cue for a reward just like clicker training.

No yanking, no yelling, no popping.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Can you be a little more specific ? when ? on which video? at what point?
> 
> I am sure that at some point on some viveo he sure is;-)
> 
> john


John 

I honestly can't tell watching the videos, however, this is what Pat said:



Kristie Wilder said:


> "Hi Kristie,
> 
> Yes,
> *I am forcing to the tables on most sends. I assume I forced when she came off the
> ...


I know a couple other trainers with FC/AFC titled dogs that use low level nicks from the e-collar to teach young dogs. ;-)


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> If you have a 9 week old puppy you can use the tone as the dinner bell. Tone reward, tone reward..Wait till they get board and walk away..Tone reward, Tone reward.
> 
> If by the third day that dog doesn't come charging for the tone then you are not doing something right. You have just conditioned a behavior with no known command just a cue from the collar.
> 
> ...


Is that what you think Pat is doing on the videos? Using the collar as a pseudo clicker ?

Is that what you are ? A closet clicker trainer?

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

That is the foundation for the casting drills in the field. It's also a quick way to move onto jumping over objects in a straight line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAx7W6MgOSo


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Is that what you think Pat is doing on the videos? Using the collar as a pseudo clicker ?
> 
> Is that what you are ? A closet clicker trainer?
> 
> john


I give up John you are never going to get it..


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> [Povlo, ring the dinner bell and the dog comes running. Except in this case the dinner bell is in the collar/QUOTE]
> 
> Pack
> Im gonna have to call you to the mat on that one
> explain step by step what you do,,and what the dog does and then we'll go over the clasical thing


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> John
> 
> I honestly can't tell watching the videos, however, this is what Pat said:
> 
> ...


Pats voice that is heard in the video is a voice over..and even if you listen closely you can't hear much of what he is saying to the dog and when he is saying it.

To me it looks like a normal training day at the water using conventional e-collar reinforcement.

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

He is using the collar here too.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PatNolan#p/u/24/ESo_9NteESA


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I give up John you are never going to get it..


Go over to the 250 yd blind thread and tell me how you would run it as a Cold blind (not to be confused with a cold burn)

john


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

> Classical Conditioning in the Real World
> 
> In reality, people do not respond exactly like Pavlov's dogs. There are, however, numerous real-world applications for classical conditioning. For example, many dog trainers use classical conditioning techniques to help people train their pets.


Can you provide an example of that, PL?

Probably not. Never mind, let me help you.

Pairing a treat (R+) with a clicker conditions the dog to respond to the clicker ... now a _conditioned_ R+. This is classical conditioning. It does nothing to cause a dog to alter behavior. Another example would be pairing a verbal "NO" with a collar nick. The verbal "NO" becomes aversive as a result of the _classical conditioning_ and therefore effective as a training tool, but beyond that, classical conditioning is not used to alter behavior.

Altering behavior would be a result of Operant Conditioning ... the dog _operating_ his environment by responding to stimuli, either + or -.

Force Fetch is an example of Operant Conditioning using R- ... negative reinforcement. Ear pinch is applied ... _command is given (taught)_ ... dog complies ... aversive pinch is discontinued ... dog is more likely to comply next time.

This is teaching by negative reinforcement and is the only place in a Carr based program where negative reinforcement is routinely used. Beyond FF, pressure is used only to strengthen or enforce what has been previously taught.

The primary reason for this approach is the belief that _over time,_ the stress involved for the dog ... (not knowing for sure what to do to shut off the aversive i.e. pinch, electric stimulation, etc.) ... the stress is cumulative and _over time_ a dog is more likely to become nervous, tentative, piggy, otherwise act as though he is afraid to do something wrong or just shut down. You know it when you see it and it is the result of the method of training. It is not conducive to good learning.

You may not see this in training for less demanding tasks. You mention obedience training. No disrespect to the difficulty of that game because I have played it too, but compared to the demands of high level field work, OB is a dance routine. It is scored on a level of precision that most field trainers don't relate to but nevertheless it is pretty much the same routine from week to week.

A dog may survive "collar teaching" for other tasks that are less demanding also, but to take a dog through several years of very difficult conceptual work such as is required in advanced field training, much of which is inherently in conflict with things he has been previously taught, and to maintain a stylish attitude, well, you just don't get there by "aiming the dog with a transmitter". You may do well to educate yourself a bit on the demands and requirements of advanced competitive retriever work. It will help you understand why so many here are skeptical and frustrated with your contentions.

Maybe someone will get it done someday but you'll have to show us first. More than once.

And BTW, we ALL read our dogs ;-)


JS


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

If the dog was looking to go around I would sit him before he left the line as close to the branch as posible, then the back command over the object.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> He is using the collar here too.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/PatNolan#p/u/24/ESo_9NteESA


There is no disputing the fact that Pat uses the E-collar
On that video he is reinforcing commands with it

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> If the dog was looking to go around I would sit him before he left the line as close to the branch as posible, then the back command over the object.


A Cold blind is one that the dog has not run before.
You are at a line 175 yds from the branch.You line the dog and send him... how would you control your dog if he wavered from the line at that distance ?

"If the dog was looking to go around"???? What does that mean?

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Yes, so now he can send the dog to the place board from 75 yards if he wanted to. 

You can use the same method to teach over the bail, and cast them over a chair at 75 yards if you want.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Yes, so now he can send the dog to the place board from 75 yards if he wanted to.
> 
> You can use the same method to teach over the bail, and cast them over a chair at 75 yards if you want.


As much as I like Pat I'd like to move on to how you would run the blind, So how would you?

john

BTW.In case you missed it, PETE called Bull Sh!t on you on that Classical Conditioning thing;-)


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> As much as I like Pat I'd like to move on to how you would run the blind, So how would you


John you do have a good sence of humor

Packleader you might have missed it ,,,but you gave a reply using tone and food instead of stimulation and movement with a stoppage of stimulation

But the whole debate has been e collar stims
so explain how and what you are doing with the stims and then we can discuss the classical con vs -r subconciouslyly and intermitantly 

Pete


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Pete said:


> John you do have a good sence of humor
> 
> Packleader you might have missed it ,,,but you gave a reply using tone and food instead of stimulation and movement with a stoppage of stimulation
> 
> ...


He asked how I came up with the theory that the collar is like a bell. You don't have to use tone and you don't have to use food it's just an example..As you can see the stim at proper level is the best method.

Anyway I already told you I have no terminology for it. Do you? does Pat??

I would love to hear it.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I say back, or place, and guide the dog onto the board while I tap. As soon as his feet touch the board I stop. If he moves off the board I guide him back on TAP. 

I do this until I can take the leash of and tap the button and he goes to the board. Same thing you are watching in the clip. If the dog is far away I don't keep taping. It's a feel kinda thing, they work for the reward of a bumper every so often to keep them happy. Being able to run to the mat and turn off the stim is like a game to them..

My dog looks exactly like the dog in the video during this method. 

K i'm off to bed my eyes are bleeding its 1am.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Pack
That is no doubt in my mind rooted in force or -r or as I now like to say 
subconcious intermitant force I crack myself up.

But because it is so low the dog does not view it as an aversive only more or less like a fly pestering it. As soon as he gets on the mat the tapping (fly buzzing (intermitant stim) stops, he has escaped the pesky fly

For a dog no big deal,,they handle things in life like that almost every day. They dont hold flys against people,,,just like my gsd doesnt relate the gravel driveway to me,,,he just steps off it and on the dirt,,,does it evertime like clock work
People watch their dogs do this stuff all day long but oviously have never seen it nor understood what they saw,,or have given any thought how to incorperate it to help their dog learn and from the responses so far its obvious ,,

Pete


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I would say the best term is this one.

Negative reinforcement - taking something unpleasant away when the desired behavior is performed to increase the likelihood of the behavior in the future


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Pete said:


> But because it is so low the dog does not view it as an aversive only more or less like a fly pestering it. As soon as he gets on the mat the tapping (fly buzzing (intermitant stim) stops, he has escaped the pesky fly


You are overgeneralizing. For some dogs, the tiniest nick is HUGE; For other dogs, the tiniest nick is "like an irritating fly." Then there are multiple dogs inbetween.



PackLeader said:


> Negative reinforcement - taking something unpleasant away when the desired behavior is performed to increase the likelihood of the behavior in the future


Poor terminology, but let us call it what it is -- direct pressure. A training philosophy dismissed years ago, even by its own proponents like Dobbs. Time has demonstrated that indirect pressure (or even attrition whenever possible) is just as effective and less stressful on the dogs, producing greater momentum.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> direct pressure. A training philosophy dismissed years ago, even by its own proponents like Dobbs


Kevin, the dog misses a cast, we blow the whistle, burn, and give the cast again. The burn was indirect pressure for the missed cast, but it was *direct* pressure for the sit.

We use direct pressure for something every time we use indirect pressure, unless it's a cold burn. Direct pressure is alive and well for some commands, "Sit, come," and, "Go," for the Carr stuff I think. 

I think in the Nolan video where he's sending the dog to the different platforms, you could say he was using direct pressure for go.

Why is there so much vitriol for dog training that doesn't match up with what we do. If we always do what we've done, will we improve as dog trainers? Yeah, I guess we do as I think I improve with every dog. But, a different perspective on how something can be done could give me a quantum leap forward on what I can do with a retriever. At my age big jumps in training methods don't come very often. I can use all the help I can get.

Also, just for the heck of it I looked up r+ and -, and p+ and -, 'cause I couldn't remember the definitions:

*Components of Operant Conditioning*

Some key concepts in operant conditioning: 

A *reinforcer* is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:
*Positive reinforcers* are favorable events or outcomes that are presented after the behavior. In situations that reflect positive reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by the addition of something, such as praise or a direct reward.
*Negative reinforcers* involve the removal of an unfavorable events or outcomes after the display of a behavior. In these situations, a response is strengthened by the removal of something considered unpleasant.

In both of these cases of reinforcement, the behavior *increases.*

*Punishment*, on the other hand, is the presentation of an adverse event or outcome that causes a decrease in the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of punishment:
*Positive punishment*, sometimes referred to as punishment by application, involves the presentation of an unfavorable event or outcome in order to weaken the response it follows.
*Negative punishment*, also known as punishment by removal, occurs when an favorable event or outcome is removed after a behavior occurs.

In both of these cases of punishment, the behavior *decreases.*


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Can you be a little more specific ? when ? on which video? at what point?
> 
> I am sure that at some point on some viveo he sure is;-)
> 
> john


That's my problem with this whole discussion, as well. The reader/viewer is left to connect too many dots, and draw thier own conclusions - even from Pat's material. PL's is as yet incomprehensible.

Evan


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Whew! There goes my New Year's Resolution....Does anyone else need a cigarette?:neutral:


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> If you have a 9 week old puppy you can use the tone as the dinner bell. Tone reward, tone reward..Wait till they get board and walk away..Tone reward, Tone reward.
> 
> If by the third day that dog doesn't come charging for the tone then you are not doing something right. You have just conditioned a behavior with no known command just a cue from the collar.
> 
> ...


 

Then SEE!!!!

Rattle Tater chip bag,,, give chip!! Rattle tater chip bag,, give treat!!

Works ok,, but I gota dog that likes Birds bettern Tater chips,, so ifn Shes hot on a poison or diversion bird,, I can rattle that Tater chip bag all over the ground at the line,, but, She will pick up the bird,, THEN come back in and clean up the mess!!

Really is kinda an embarrasment fer me,, so I tend to try and stick with more conventional means fer Now,,,~~~~~~ But I still dress cool!

Gooser


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> You are overgeneralizing. For some dogs, the tiniest nick is HUGE; For other dogs, the tiniest nick is "like an irritating fly." Then there are multiple dogs inbetween.


whats funny is people who have absolutely no understanding,,,,have never heard of it until yesterday,,,and who have never used it ,,,trying to tell me something I have used for quite some time ,experienced and thought about the behavior implications and how they relate to concepts of learning,,,and I have done it with good success. 
And they tell me it aint so
 I cant strop giggling sorry



This has been a very revieling thread for me to read 
I actually thought people could wrap there mind around this very basic, simple,and easily intreated concept for dog learning,,,,but the more pages I read the more I learn about people and their inabilility to grasp simple ,new idea,s
I learned many years ago if you cant assimalate and apply youll be stuck in the mud

Pete


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## Pat F. (Jan 3, 2003)

Where is VS when you need her??? 

Pat


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Pat F. said:


> Where is VS when you need her???
> 
> Pat


I can't see her with dead birds. Gooser has it, live birds are the reason treats, the clicker, the tapper don't work, but then I don't think PL has gotten to the point where he has actually trained in the field with birds.
That's what he needs to do to proof his method.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I can't see her with dead birds. Gooser has it, live birds are the reason treats, the clicker, the tapper don't work, but then I don't think PL has gotten to the point where he has actually trained in the field with birds.
> That's what he needs to do to proof his method.


I train dogs to ignore all other scents and distractions and follow people through the wilderness for miles I think the method has been field tested.;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I train dogs to ignore all other scents and distractions and follow people through the wilderness for miles I think the method has been field tested.;-)


You totally are missing the point. Go out and train with flyers or go to a trial and see what live flyers do to our caliber of dogs. That why we use them.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> You totally are missing the point. Go out and train with flyers or go to a trial and see what live flyers do to our caliber of dogs. That why we use them.


Erin, My dog has just as much drive for people as your dog has for birds trust me. 

How is this diffrent than a dog running a blind? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyefKMdaLU


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In all the questioning of the "new" methods I have overlooked one that *I *recently invented, the the reward retrieve.... I'm going to coin a term for it and call it the "Happy Bumper". It is based on the Premack principle, a special case of reinforcement elaborated by David Premack, which states that a highly preferred activity can be used effectively as a reinforcer for a less preferred activity.

See just when you thought you knew it all.......

john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I train dogs to ignore all other scents and distractions and follow people through the wilderness for miles I think the method has been field tested.;-)


This is a working retriever forum for dogs that hunt, run hunt tests and/or run field trials. The core traits and trained abilities this is all based on have a common theme, and require a standard set of skills. It is not a SAR board. I'm sure there are some, but this isn't it. 

Have you _really_ not noticed this? If it hasn't, no one will be able to turn on the lights for you.

We're generally a group open to new ideas, tools, and processes. But those ideas, tools and processes need to have a real relationship to what _we_ do in order to be of _interest_ or _use_ to those who join these discussions. That is not exclusionary. It's just reasonable and practical. There is no coherent message in all your posts combined that does this.

So I submit this proposal. As you are fond of posting videos, post up a clip of a retreiver you trained your way that shows him clearly running a double or triple marking set up with a blind, or multiple blind - land or water. Show or explain to us the merits of your system as demonstrated by this clip, and explain your understanding of this type of work. That would go further to make some comprehensible point than all your previous points combined. 

There is no reason for anyone to believe you understand our type of fieldwork, or it's relative standards without seeing the results of your efforts in this context.

*NOTE:* Please do not use someone else's work that you clearly do not understand or practice. Make this your work, and your explanation as outline above.

Evan


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

john fallon said:


> In all the questioning of the "new" methods I have overlooked one that *I *recently invented, the the reward retrieve.... I'm going to coin a term for it and call it the "Happy Bumper". It is based on the Premack principle, a special case of reinforcement elaborated by David Premack, which states that a highly preferred activity can be used effectively as a reinforcer for a less preferred activity.
> 
> See just when you thought you knew it all.......
> 
> john


Be sure to tell them where you heard it first


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Evan said:


> This is a working retriever forum for dogs that hunt, run hunt tests and/or run field trials. The core traits and trained abilities this is all based on have a common theme, and require a standard set of skills. It is not a SAR board. I'm sure there are some, but this isn't it.
> 
> Have you _really_ not noticed this? If it hasn't, no one will be able to turn on the lights for you.
> 
> ...


Have you missed all of the Pat Nolan videos? I already explained for three days how it relates.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Erin, My dog has just as much drive for people as your dog has for birds trust me.
> r
> How is this diffrent than a dog running a blind?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyefKMdaLU


There is a *HUGE* difference.

For one, the dog doesn't know the destination on a blind. 

Jamie it is obvious to me that you have almost NO IDEA what it takes to run a field trial. I doubt you have ever been to one.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

PackLeader said:


> Erin, My dog has just as much drive for people as your dog has for birds trust me.
> 
> How is this diffrent than a dog running a blind?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyefKMdaLU


Maybe if you explained what the dog was doing and also what, if anything, the handler is doing as far as commands, ecollar? It is so hard trying to decipher these videos when there is no narration. I assume from the label of the video that this dog is being trained for scent tracking? Has a scent trail been laid already? Are there diversions with other scent tracks or something? Does it find reward at the end of the trail or??? How do you know what the dog is doing out of sight? If the dog was running a blind, I'd understand what was going on even if no narration, but as I don't train for scent tracking, I have no idea from watching this dog run down a path and back what it is doing or how it correlates to running a blind, or, with no narration, what is being trained here, dog doing something right, reward, something wrong, correction, I have no idea. I think I see the dog pick up some treat when it returns, other than that, I'm clueless as to how it correlates to the thread here.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> > Originally Posted by john fallon
> > In all the questioning of the "new" methods I have overlooked one that I recently invented, the the reward retrieve.... I'm going to coin a term for it and call it the "Happy Bumper". It is based on the Premack principle, a special case of reinforcement elaborated by David Premack, which states that a highly preferred activity can be used effectively as a reinforcer for a less preferred activity.
> >
> > See just when you thought you knew it all.......
> ...


Cognitive reading 101 should be in your immediate future

john


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

PackLeader said:


> How is this diffrent than a dog running a blind?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyefKMdaLU


Herein lies your problem. You really DON'T KNOW......do you? I think I understand a lot more about where you are coming from. Reread Evan's post and understand what we are doing here before you try to tell us how to do it. It has nothing to do with Pat Nolan. I have used his videos to train my dog to cast to mats, just for another control drill. But......that is not what his whole retriever training program is based on. This one thing has been taken out of context.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Just wanted to make this its own thread so Jamie could be justified.


Has there been enough “justification” Kristie?

.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Then why does Pat say this work applies to FEMA< SAR> and Handling in the filed???????

I understand I don't know everything about sport retrieve. But I know dogs and I know e-collars. They told Fred he could never train police dogs because he was never a cop and doesn't know a thing about it. He went on to produce some very impressive police dogs..

Just the fact that I could pick out someone using the same method from a short video clip of a dog I never met should tell you something..

Hunters come to me all the time and tell me I need the dog to do this, and I make the dog do that..What I know about RT is really not that important to them, as long as the job gets done with no other issues erupting.

See this method is best described in person with me putting the collar on your dog and showing you. I will never post anything on here that is going to convince you otherwise.

So you can choose to ask questions and pick my brain all you want..If you want to argue about what I can do and cant do it's a mute point. 

You have no idea what I can and can't do with a dog.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> You are overgeneralizing. For some dogs, the tiniest nick is HUGE; For other dogs, the tiniest nick is "like an irritating fly." Then there are multiple dogs inbetween


Kevin I have to use your analogy again,,,,

There are dogs that if you snap a leash and correct show no reaction and there are some that fall apart

There are dogs who are goo goo ga ga over treats and some who will absolutely not accept them 

there are dogs who will reconsider their position in order to gain a positive and some who will immediatly loose interest

There are some dogs that thrive with force and others who do not

Do we now throw operant conditioning out the window because there are dogs out there who dont respond accordingly

I say we modify whatever we are doing to a particular dog,,, its no different than anything else we do with a dog

Thats all I have to say about this topic

p


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> There is no reason for anyone to believe you understand our type of fieldwork, or it's relative standards without seeing the results of your efforts in this context.
> 
> *NOTE:* Please do not use someone else's work that you clearly do not understand or practice. Make this your work, and your explanation as outline above.


Here's your answer, Evan. It's not going to happen. Every person on RTF who has run a HT or FT knows what I am talking about with prey drive and flyers, and PL thinks it's the same as cadavers.



> I will never post anything on here that is going to convince you otherwise.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Just the fact that I could pick out someone using the same method from a short video clip of a dog I never met should tell you something..


If my memory serves me correctly , It was me who shower you a Pat Nolan video when you first came around here in early December. I forget what we were discussing, could be when you were protesting *MY* use of the low level stim function of the E-collar in get the dog to sit at a distance thread ..... back then you were still into ropes and pulleys

What a difference viewing a few videos has made in your repertoire

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Here's your answer, Evan. It's not going to happen. Every person on RTF who has run a HT or FT knows what I am talking about with prey drive and flyers, and PL thinks it's the same as cadavers.


Thats not a cadaver dog


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

This reminds me of the time I was running a couple water blinds in the park. The 1st dog I ran was my all-age dog. She ran two very, good water blinds, I think she lined 1 and 1 whistled the other. I then ran her daughter that was just starting to run cold water blinds. The blinds were way to much for her, but she worked with me, and I got her through them. They were very hacky 10-15 whistles each.

When I was finished, a guy came up to me that was watching me the whole time. He says that was really amazing, then he asks when are you going to have that 1st dog you ran trained like the second dog. :lol:

He was just impressed with the dog stopping when I blew the whistle and taking the casts that I gave. He had no understanding of the factors in those blinds and how much more advanced the 1st dog really was!!!


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

john fallon said:


> If my memory serves me correctly , It was me who shower you a Pat Nolan video when you first came around here in early December. I forget what we were discussing, could be when you were protesting the use of the low level function of the E-collar in get the dog to sit at a distance thread ..... back then you were still into ropes and pulleys
> 
> What a difference viewing a few videos has made in your repertoire
> 
> john



Yes I know John, and you have been using the method for ever, and Pat is not using an e-collar.. I know


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Erin, My dog has just as much drive for people as your dog has for birds trust me.
> 
> How is this diffrent than a dog running a blind?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyefKMdaLU





2tall said:


> Herein lies your problem. You really DON'T KNOW......do you? .


I speculated upon the very best blind retrieve video thread to post a link to, to show pack leader a blind retrieve. Not much compares to this one by Oscar. He doesn’t post very often. But when he does it is always impressive. Not all the vids in this thread work anymore but the ones in post 1 and 7 do. Post 1 is the bestest anyway. Note packleader how the dog stops crisply and taked direction from Oscar. Not simply running along a snowy trail like you “blind retrieve” vid. I have come to understand you have no clue about the field work we are speaking of. Watch Oscar’s vid full screen speakers on as his music is also quite nice, and the scenery WOW!! Here is a bitchen water blind. 

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16555

.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Doug Main said:


> This reminds me of the time I was running a couple water blinds in the park. The 1st dog I ran was my all-age dog. She ran two very, good water blinds, I think she lined 1 and 1 whistled the other. I then ran her daughter that was just starting to run cold water blinds. The blinds were way to much for her, but she worked with me, and I got her through them. They were very hacky 10-15 whistles each.
> 
> When I was finished, a guy came up to me that was watching me the whole time. He says that was really amazing, then he asks when are you going to have that 1st dog you ran trained like the second dog. :lol:
> 
> He was just impressed with the dog stopping when I blew the whistle and taking the casts that I gave. He had no understanding of the factors in those blinds and how much more advanced the 1st dog really was!!!


Was he a dog trainer?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> I speculated upon the very best blind retrieve video thread to post a link to, to show pack leader a blind retrieve. Not much compares to this one by Oscar. He doesn’t post very often. But when he does it is always impressive. Not all the vids in this thread work anymore but the ones in post 1 and 7 do. Post 1 is the bestest anyway. Note packleader how the dog stops crisply and taked direction from Oscar. Not simply running along a snowy trail like you “blind retrieve” vid. I have come to understand you have no clue about the field work we are speaking of. Watch Oscar’s vid full screen speakers on as his music is also quite nice, and the scenery WOW!! Here is a bitchen water blind.
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16555
> 
> .


I was simply showing drive nothing else..


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Erin, My dog has just as much drive for people as your dog has for birds trust me.
> 
> How is this diffrent than a dog running a blind


 well I'll say one more thing

Pack its not the same thing
when birds and distance and an endless variety of facters are concerned you will have to go back to incorperating standard principles of the retriever game developed by and taught by the good solid retriever trainers in order to get the job done,,,
but there will be times when your application of your method will come in handy,,,especially for problem solving.

Thats what training is,,,its doing what the dog needs throughout the learning process at various stages of development,,,, There is alot to learn about retriever sports and the people who are good at it,, are good at it for a reason and they prove their good at it by winning consistantly,,,,but that doesnt mean you cant improve on 1 phase of it for a certain dog who doent grasp something quick enough by incorperating something different or use it in basics for some of the yard work stuff... Some where along the line your gonna have to use differnt things for different dogs


Thats where people are stumbling here,,,,they think your offereing some new age retriever program where all it is is a slightly different approach to helping dogs learn. 

I cant believe this has caused such a stir.

pete


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

PackLeader said:


> Then why does Pat say this work applies to FEMA< SAR> and Handling in the filed???????
> 
> I understand I don't know everything about sport retrieve. But I know dogs and I know e-collars. They told Fred he could never train police dogs because he was never a cop and doesn't know a thing about it. He went on to produce some very impressive police dogs..
> 
> ...


But why can't you do this in a video specifically for that purpose, put an ecollar on a dog and show what you mean by your method and explain it as you are doing it? Look at other retriever training videos and see how they demonstrate to the viewers when and how the collar is being used. Demonstrate your tap tap and dragging and how it differs from conventional teaching then reinforcing with the collar, do it with an untrained dog from the beginning, even something simple like you've mentioned, teach place or sit or heel, something that is basic and we mostly all do regardless of sport so there is some common ground. Show us how you use your method in a format we can relate to, with narration of what is being done and showing when/how/what level the collar is being used. Because you haven't done the HT/FT and many of us haven't done SAR or whatever, there isn't much common ground and there is a huge communication problem here, so break it down to the basics and start it from there. If Lardy could only show his method in person and not via video or written materials, well, that about says it all for anyone who has trained a retriever for HT/FT, it just wouldn't cut it so much.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> I speculated upon the very best blind retrieve video thread to post a link to, to show pack leader a blind retrieve. Not much compares to this one by Oscar. He doesn’t post very often. But when he does it is always impressive. Not all the vids in this thread work anymore but the ones in post 1 and 7 do. Post 1 is the bestest anyway. Note packleader how the dog stops crisply and taked direction from Oscar. Not simply running along a snowy trail like you “blind retrieve” vid. I have come to understand you have no clue about the field work we are speaking of. Watch Oscar’s vid full screen speakers on as his music is also quite nice, and the scenery WOW!! Here is a bitchen water blind.
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16555
> 
> .





PackLeader said:


> I was simply showing drive nothing else..


A; how did you watch a 6 min vid in one minute????
B; “drive”? You showed a dog running in the snow.

Watch Oscar’s vid, it is very nice. I posted it just for you and didn’t even make fun of your handle, that time.

.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I was simply showing drive nothing else..


This is what you mean by "drive for people." Too bad you didn't go to the National this Fall. That's the problem, you are talking about something you have never done or seen. Reminds me of the conformation crowd, who some actually have viewed some HT and FT, and they say their dog could do that, but it's just not their thing to do. Talk is cheap.

Go out and get some titles and compete. Go out and train at least with flyers. Otherwise, your method is not proofed and has no credibility


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Trust me I have great respect for the pros. They have developed a system that produces a desired result the same as we study e-collar training and developer that. 

We have a method that produces a very obedient and off leash responsive dog that can learn great handling skills at a very rapid pace.

That much is fact..

Is it of use to RT, does it mesh with other programs? I would be willing to bet that it does as Pat and others have already pointed out..


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Yes I know John, and you have been using the method for ever, and Pat is not using an e-collar.. I know



Not forever, since about 1989.

Here's one for ya. I have also used a perimeter fence and collar system for teaching a dog to, among other things, fight factors ;-)

Can you top this regards

john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> This is what you mean by "drive for people." Too bad you didn't go to the National this Fall. That's the problem, you are talking about something you have never done or seen. Reminds me of the conformation crowd, who some actually have viewed some HT and FT, and they say their dog could do that, but it's just not their thing to do. Talk is cheap.
> 
> Go out and get some titles and compete. Go out and train at least with flyes. Otherwise, your method is not proofed and has no credibility


Fine then don't pay any attention until I do just that..I don't care! 

I don't judge dog trainers by how how many titles they have..If you do that's fine..I already told you send your dog to a pro if you are competing in SRT.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Pete said:


> well I'll say one more thing
> 
> Pack its not the same thing
> when birds and distance and an endless variety of facters are concerned you will have to go back to incorperating standard principles of the retriever game developed by and taught by the good solid retriever trainers in order to get the job done,,,
> ...


Pete,

I have worked dogs on birds before, I know the drive level. Just because I don't have an video up doesn't mean I have never done it. I'm a hunter that should should be all I have to say in that regards. But the page is under development so stay tuned..Its easy to nit pick my work from over a year ago when my dog wasn't even 1 yet and training for a diffrent sport...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Is it of use to RT, does it mesh with other programs? I would be willing to bet that it does as Pat and others have already pointed out..


Without any evidence, you're not betting. You're merely speculating.


PackLeader said:


> Have you missed all of the *Pat Nolan* videos? I already explained for three days how it relates.


Yes, we've all seen you plagiarize, and try to promote your weak ideas on the back of someone else, who has actually done this type of fieldwork successfully. Once more; "There is no reason for anyone to believe you understand our type of fieldwork, or it's relative standards without seeing the results of your efforts in this context.

*NOTE:* Please do not use someone else's work that you clearly do not understand or practice. Make this _your_ work, and _your_ explanation as outline above."

You keep saying "trust me", followed by claims with no factual support. Why would anyone (not on drugs or a ventilator) 'trust' you?

Evan


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Evan said:


> Without any evidence, you're not betting. You're merely speculating.Yes, we've all seen you plagiarize, and try to promote your weak ideas on the back of someone else, who has actually done this type of fieldwork successfully. Once more; "There is no reason for anyone to believe you understand our type of fieldwork, or it's relative standards without seeing the results of your efforts in this context.
> 
> *NOTE:* Please do not use someone else's work that you clearly do not understand or practice. Make this _your_ work, and _your_ explanation as outline above."
> 
> ...


Evan,

I don't understand it? I was able to tell you exactly when and what he was doing..LOL

Refer to the original post!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> I don't understand it? I was able to tell you exactly when and what he was doing..LOL


Hackleader,
I can tell ya exactly what Mike Lardy is doing in the total retriever series. It don’t make me Mike Lardy, it makes me good at watchin TV.

So did you view Oscars blind retrieve video yet?

.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Hackleader,
> I can tell ya exactly what Mike Lardy is doing in the total retriever series. It don’t make me Mike Lardy, it makes me good at watchin TV.
> 
> So did you view Oscars blind retrieve video yet?
> ...


Ken,

You are still invited to come down and run some drills with bumpers..We can see how a SAR dogs directional work relates to your dogs directional work;-)


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Hackleader,
> I can tell ya exactly what Mike Lardy is doing in the total retriever series. It don’t make me Mike Lardy, it makes me good at watchin TV.
> 
> So *did you view Oscars blind retrieve video yet?*
> ...





PackLeader said:


> Ken,
> 
> You are still invited to come down and run some drills with bumpers..We can see how a SAR dogs directional work relates to your dogs directional work;-)


So is that a “yes” or “no” why do you such an issue with answering the most simple direct questions?

.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Evan,
> 
> I don't understand it? I was able to tell you exactly when and what he was doing..LOL
> 
> Refer to the original post!


Where were you in the video? _YOU? _

For example, if I say I know how to train for poison bird blinds, I can show you how I do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VclTqVDmVzk 

I'm not riding on someone else to make any of my claims believable. You haven't shown or demonstrated in any way that anything you've claimed has any validity at all.

Evan


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Evan said:


> Where were you in the video? _YOU? _
> 
> Evan


Evan,

I am going to film a video just like it of my dog doing direction work on the FEMA diamond. Will that make you happy?


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Evan,
> 
> I am going to film a video just like it of my dog doing direction work on the FEMA diamond. Will that make you happy?


Of course not. If you think those standards are equal to what we do, video that. Your dog can do it, right? It's easy when you know how, and of course you know how...right?

Evan


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> I speculated upon the very best blind retrieve video thread to post a link to, to show pack leader a blind retrieve. Not much compares to this one by Oscar. He doesn’t post very often. But when he does it is always impressive. Not all the vids in this thread work anymore but the ones in post 1 and 7 do. Post 1 is the bestest anyway. Note packleader how the dog stops crisply and taked direction from Oscar. Not simply running along a snowy trail like you “blind retrieve” vid. I have come to understand you have no clue about the field work we are speaking of. Watch Oscar’s vid full screen speakers on as his music is also quite nice, and the scenery WOW!! Here is a bitchen water blind.
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16555
> 
> .


Au contrare, syrup guy. Oscar's blind is good but I have searched the archives and have indeed found one that is bitchener.

And my dogs are taught WITHOUT the advantages of e-collars, heeling sticks, treats OR clickers.

This is pure k9 intelligence. I am in process of setting up my own web site (I will be CEO) and will, for the price of a case of syrup offer my services to interested owners. I limit the number of dogs in my string so as to devote maximum attention to each. RTFers will get first consideration.

Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Z_U9QD1KE

JS


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Evan said:


> Of course not. If you think those standards are equal to what we do, video that. Your dog can do it, right? It's easy when you know how, and of course you know how...right?
> 
> Evan


If you are asking that I introduce my current dog to birds, I'm sorry I can't help you.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

JS said:


> Check it out.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Z_U9QD1KE
> 
> JS


darkest Golden Retriever I ever seen


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> If you are asking that I introduce my current dog to birds, I'm sorry I can't help you.


Why not. You're an authority on this type of fieldwork, aren't you? If you must, use bumpers, but do the same thing, alrighty? 

Or just do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVB3t5jFPKE .

Evan


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Evan,
> 
> I am going to film a video just like it of my dog doing direction work on the FEMA diamond. Will that make you happy?



Don't bother with the FEMA diamond. Film your dog doing dbl T and if that goes well try a W drill.

john


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> If you are asking that I introduce my current dog to birds, I'm sorry I can't help you.


I can bring birds!!!!
Folk who actually train retrievers always have birds.
I can bring um when I come down……
You don’t have any birds?
how do you train retrievers then????

.


----------



## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

A few words:

Apples to Apples - when it is convenient to PL.

Apples and Oranges - when it is not......

Everyone is wasting time here..... PL - doesn't know "our game" and is unwilling to admit it.

PL - have you watched a FT or HT?; Have you ever participated in a HT or FT?; Have you trained a dog that has participated in a HT or FT - (MH, QAA or Higher stake)?


Another note:

I have a Carpenter friend - (Professional / Does Carpentry work for a living) he would be someone I hire for my home. 
BUT…….
That friend – I wouldn't hire to build a new commercial building or football stadium….


So just because you come here and “tell me” you are a professional – really doesn’t mean much until I know what you have built…….


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Evan said:


> Why not. You're an authority on this type of fieldwork, aren't you? If you must, use bumpers, but do the same thing, alrighty?
> 
> Or just do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVB3t5jFPKE .
> 
> Evan


Yeah that's what I want to see, six corrections on the way to the blind..They even had a splice in the video where they edited it out because the dog scks...LOL

But if that is what you want to see then ok..It's snowing here now but I will make a video soon. Don't cha worry..


----------



## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

Baaahaaa, the dog is not being corrected, those are called "cast". Its how you handle a dog to a blind. Wasn't pretty but thats another story. I highly doubt you could get your anywhere near the bumper


Admit it you have no clue.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah that's what I want to see, six corrections on the way to the blind..They even had a splice in the video where they edited it out because the dog scks...LOL
> 
> But if that is what you want to see then ok..It's snowing here now but I will make a video soon. Don't cha worry..


Okay, 

Lesson #1: Those weren't "corrections", dip stick. They were handles, aka "casts". We teach our dogs to handle in order to guide them to unknown destinations, aka "Blind retrieves".

And I strongly suspect you're the only one on this board to whom I needed to explain that. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Evan


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah that's what I want to see, six corrections on the way to the blind..They even had a splice in the video where they edited it out because the dog scks...LOL
> 
> But if that is what you want to see then ok..It's snowing here now but I will make a video soon. Don't cha worry..


PL, You really don't get it do ya!...........

Polock, trying to understand why folks are even giving ya the time day....


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Chris Miller said:


> Baaahaaa, the dog is not being corrected, those are called "cast". Its how you handle a dog to a blind. *Wasn't pretty* but thats another story.


Bear in mind there was a 20 mph crosswind. 

Evan


----------



## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah that's what I want to see, six corrections on the way to the blind..They even had a splice in the video where they edited it out because the dog scks...LOL
> 
> But if that is what you want to see then ok..It's snowing here now but I will make a video soon. Don't cha worry..


Packleader,

I have been unable to respond to your previous posts and was just able to respond to your pm a day or two ago..

Pacleader, you have been unable to anwser any of my questions or anyone elses for that matter, directley..

Its kinda like one of those tests you have to take at school, you know the test is coming, you didnt study, so on test day, you show up, scratch your butt, and pull something out that doesnt stink too bad!

I know were supposed to be respectful on this site, and thats the golden rule, but since you disrespected me on this site more than once, Ill be more than happy to oblige you on calling you out!

Anwser these three questions directley please...
1. How do you teach with an e collar for the command "HERE or COME"?
(Please explain your method in detail)

2. How is using the E collar for teaching instead of reinforcing more effective?
(Please dont refer me to a website that talks about tennis balls and koehlers leash trainging from 1949)

3. Just wondering if you were ever taught not to disrespect your elders?


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

2tall said:


> Herein lies your problem. You really DON'T KNOW......do you? I think I understand a lot more about where you are coming from. Reread Evan's post and understand what we are doing here before you try to tell us how to do it. It has nothing to do with Pat Nolan. I have used his videos to train my dog to cast to mats, just for another control drill. But......that is not what his whole retriever training program is based on. This one thing has been taken out of context.


Hey 2tall, is it just me or didn't you know that by the third post?

There ain't nothing wrong with training pet dogs to be pet dogs, but it don't translate to field trial or hunt test success.


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Slow morning, I read the whole thing. WOW! Kinda reminds me of a new kid in school. Probably best to feel your way around unless you want to make a splash. You would think a pack leader would understand pack mentality. Or like a flock of chickens when they sense something is wrong with one of them --- the pecking starts. Oh, we are not dealing with dogs or birds-- it's humans now that's different. Have a Safe New Year everybody. HPW


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Polock said:


> PL, You really don't get it do ya!...........
> 
> Polock, *trying to understand why folks are even giving ya the time day*....


OK wise guy from Texas! It's 6 below up here with 18" of snow & ice on the ground! This is the only entertainment we got til the Packers play at 3:00! 

JS


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Leddyman said:


> Hey 2tall, is it just me or didn't you know that by the third post?
> 
> There ain't nothing wrong with training pet dogs to be pet dogs, but it don't translate to field trial or hunt test success.


I think I knew it from his first post ever, but wanted to see if he worked it out. I finally acknowledged that he really... just... does... not... know what we do when he posted the question himself re the vid of the dog running the trail in the snow, "How is this different from a dog running a blind"


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

2tall said:


> I think I knew it from his first post ever, but wanted to see if he worked it out. I finally acknowledged that he really... just... does... not... know what we do when he posted the question himself re the vid of the dog running the trail in the snow, "How is this different from a dog running a blind"


Look at the dogs face before I "send" him..This dog is not running into the woods on his own, he has no idea if his intended target is where I'm sending him or not. I understand about handling part that was not my point...

By sucking I ment the dog is drifting, sucking, or being pulled from the intended line...It says in the video that it's the wind..I don't think that is entirely accurate. Anyway I never claimed it to be the next best method for SR. I think this thread is over!


----------



## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

IT is over-- You don't answer Direct Questions.......


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> I think this thread is over!


Silly Smackleader,
This is Kristie’s Thread to start or finish. Started so you could be justified.
How did that work for you Kristie? Did we all “Just Fry” as you had planned?;-)

.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> By sucking I ment the dog is drifting, sucking, or being pulled from the intended line...It says in the video that it's the wind..I don't think that is entirely accurate. Anyway I never claimed it to be the next best method for SR. I think this thread is over!


Alrighty, then. When you make your video, make sure it's at least 200 yards to the blind in a 20 mph crossing wind. Also make sure it's a cold bilnd, rather than one the dog has already run, and by all means don't let him "suck"!

Evan...who will be anxiously waiting............waiting............................waiting...........................not.


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Kevin, the dog misses a cast, we blow the whistle, burn, and give the cast again. The burn was indirect pressure for the missed cast, but it was *direct* pressure for the sit.


Howard, we still use direct pressure, but the overall training philosophy where direct pressure is the norm and the preferred has been rejected.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> Silly Smackleader,
> This is Kristie’s Thread to start or finish. Started so you could be justified.
> How did that work for you Kristie? Did we all “Just Fry” as you had planned?;-)
> 
> .


LOL, I posted it to be fair and then ran in the other direction and am only reading the last page right now.


----------



## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

Hambone84 said:


> Packleader,
> 
> I have been unable to respond to your previous posts and was just able to respond to your pm a day or two ago..
> 
> ...



Packleader,

Still waiting? If you cant comply just let me know?


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Did you actually say that blind sucked?? 

Wow-that is just flat rotten. You need to grow up & learn some manners. Small world this dog community and you are making a reputation for yourself-good or bad. 

Good luck to you.


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

I'll have to feez up, I just couldn't duplicate PL's dogs performance from his video.......

I placed my wife in the woods at the back of the property, gave her a radio, and moved back some 250 yds thru the woods, fields and standing water with my dawg so we couldn't see one another. I sat the dawg facing the woods and instucted my wife to give her a come in whistle. I sent the dawg, but unfortunately she did not avoid the obstacles on her way or try to skirt the water in her path but ran straight through all the cover/obstacles into the woods where she was rewarded with a treat.
I then had my wife sit her facing my direction at which time I gave her a come in whistle. To my dismay, the dawg again ran straight back to me through & over all the obstacles in her path where she again recieved a treat.

Maybe next time I'll make a path for her to follow AROUND all the obstacles........and hope she forgets everything she learned in training about not flaring objects in her path.............:shock:


----------



## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Evan said:


> Bear in mind there was a 20 mph crosswind.
> 
> Evan


Sorry, not really sure what you were trying to show in your video. Sure, it may have been a crosswind blind, but I didn't see much in the way of teaching anything to the dog. It appears that the dog either immediately caved to the factor or fell off the hill that you were training on. Either way, the dog continued to stay on the downwind side of the blind for at least several more casts. At the very least, I would have required a better effort to have the dog shoulder into the wind and err more towards the upwind side of the blind. 

Was this part of multiple blinds incorporating the same concept? If not, I don't believe that the dog or handler gained much from the experience. 

And, long sleeves on the handler next time. Just to be fairer to the dog (who appeared to be trying).


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Goldenboy said:


> Sorry, not really sure what you were trying to show in your video.....Was this part of multiple blinds incorporating the same concept? If not, I don't believe that the dog or handler gained much from the experience.
> 
> And, long sleeves on the handler next time. Just to be fairer to the dog (who appeared to be trying).


Easy. The training that took place wasn't all you missed. The purpose for posting it also seems to have been missed. In the midst of challenging PL to post up an actual training video of his own that pertains to fieldwork, I posted one previously as an example, and then this one - purely as an example of the kind of fieldwork we discuss here. It was not to teach anything about crosswind blinds in this situation.

The video clip you're referring to was part of an explanation to answer another question on a different forum at another time. Yes, that blind was only one of 3, and there had been a mark on the left side of the set up. But that is not germane to this discussion.

Evan


----------



## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Evan said:


> Easy. The training that took place wasn't all you missed. The purpose for posting it also seems to have been missed. In the midst of challenging PL to post up an actual training video of his own that pertains to fieldwork, I posted one previously as an example, and then this one - purely as an example of the kind of fieldwork we discuss here. It was not to teach anything about crosswind blinds in this situation.
> 
> The video clip you're referring to was part of an explanation to answer another question on a different forum at another time. Yes, that blind was only one of 3, and there had been a mark on the left side of the set up. But that is not germane to this discussion.
> 
> Evan


Uh, OK. 

Still, if you're going to post a video on this forum, be prepared for dissection/discussion of its content.


----------



## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

Goldenboy said:


> Uh, OK.
> 
> Still, if you're going to post a video on this forum, be prepared for dissection/discussion of its content. And, although I might have missed a bunch of the stuff that you allude to, is this video in any way reflective of the standard to which you train?


I personally beleive he already explained to you why he posted the video and I'm sure if your wondering to what standard Mr. graham trains to, I would be more than happy to direct you to this site www.rushcreekpress.com. Here you can read about Smartwork, and its contents. 

Regards


----------



## Clark (Aug 10, 2008)

Goldenboy said:


> Uh, OK.
> 
> Still, if you're going to post a video on this forum, be prepared for dissection/discussion of its content. And, although I might have missed a bunch of the stuff that you allude to, is this video in any way reflective of the standard to which you train?


And today's "most obvious troll attempt" award goes to...


----------



## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Hambone84 said:


> I personally beleive he already explained to you why he posted the video and I'm sure if your wondering to what standard Mr. graham trains to, I would be more than happy to direct you to this site www.rushcreekpress.com. Here you can read about Smartwork, and its contents.
> 
> Regards


 
Writing about it is one thing, practicing it is something else. No trolling, just not impressed in any way by the video. I'll gladly leave it at that.


----------



## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Polock said:


> I'll have to feez up, I just couldn't duplicate PL's dogs performance from his video.......
> 
> I placed my wife in the woods at the back of the property, gave her a radio, and moved back some 250 yds thru the woods, fields and standing water with my dawg so we couldn't see one another. I sat the dawg facing the woods and instucted my wife to give her a come in whistle. I sent the dawg, but unfortunately she did not avoid the obstacles on her way or try to skirt the water in her path but ran straight through all the cover/obstacles into the woods where she was rewarded with a treat.
> I then had my wife sit her facing my direction at which time I gave her a come in whistle. To my dismay, the dawg again ran straight back to me through & over all the obstacles in her path where she again recieved a treat.
> ...


Geez, Dan. I am so sorry to read that you had such a tough training session :roll: So...is she a washout? ...given all that you have to fix? If so, and you want to place her...give me a call!! 

Judy 

(perhaps another Rorem workshop will help you with your timing..handling AROUND obstacles...rather than through them! Tweeeet....."TOO SLOW!!!!" LOL.. )


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Evan said:


> Okay,
> 
> Lesson #1: Those weren't "corrections", dip stick. They were handles, aka "casts". We teach our dogs to handle in order to guide them to unknown destinations, aka "Blind retrieves".
> 
> ...


You know crackheadleader you really gots to go some to make Evan get testy with you. I don't think I've seen him get whizzed with anybody before and I been here a couple of months already.

Quite an accomplishment regards,

I said Bora's syrup tastes like Aunt Jemima and I get nothing? What do you hafta do around here?


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Leddyman said:


> You know crackheadleader you really gots to go some to make Evan get testy with you. I don't think I've seen him get whizzed with anybody before and I been here a couple of months already.
> 
> Quite an accomplishment regards,
> 
> I said Bora's syrup tastes like Aunt Jemima and I get nothing? What do you hafta do around here?


Thats because Aunt Jemima is the pancakes, *dipstick! Tell him it tastes like Log Cabin

*Evan's word!


----------



## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

Packleader just has the affect on people...Evan is here posting good training info and packie has his own "BBQ The Dog Till He Understands It Method!" LOL Evan did call him a "dipstick", and I havent heard that in a very long time...


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Hambone84 said:


> Packleader just has the affect on people...Evan is here posting good training info and packie has his own "BBQ The Dog Till He Understands It Method!" LOL Evan did call him a "dipstick", and I havent heard that in a very long time...


Oh, well. I'd be more upset over the Aunt Jemima crack! I got my first two bottles of Ken's syrup last week. Words can't do it justice, buddy. 

Hopefully we can get back to training discussion. Popsicle needs to move on, starting tomorrow! Goldenboy, if you think it's all writing you aren't reading enough! 

Evan


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

2tall said:


> Thats because Aunt Jemima is the pancakes, *dipstick! Tell him it tastes like Log Cabin
> 
> *Evan's word!


Ah! You got me. I was thinking about Mrs. Butterworth's. I can't even get my insults right! Crap!

Sorry Bora! I's wuz a just kiddin bout the syrup anyway. Except you do look like the strong man at the circus. Or a tag team rassler.

Gots ta git me sum o that syrup regards.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

2tall said:


> Thats because Aunt Jemima is the pancakes, *dipstick! Tell him it tastes like Log Cabin
> !


she did both





Leddyman said:


> Sorry Bora! I's wuz a just kiddin bout the syrup anyway. Except you do look like the strong man at the circus. Or a tag team rassler.


HA somebody thinking about me in tights!!!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> I'd be more upset over the Aunt Jemima crack!


she sells drugs too??


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Yea Mr Grahm has never even called Gooser a dip stick,, and thats Goosers middle name!!!

PL~~~ it is really amazing to Gooser that you got called a Dipstick!!
I,ve tried fer 5 yrs here,, and the worst that has happened to me was DUFUS!!!


Gooser


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Or a tag team rassler.


Its Wrestler ~~` Dipstick!!!!



Gooser

Man thats kinda fun!!!!


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> Its Wrestler ~~` Dipstick!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You is obviously one a them northern type yankees. Here in the dixie it is rassler. The sport is called rasslin. AS in who's gonna git the last biscuit with Bora's syrup on it. I'll rassle ya fer it.

Dipstick! That's what Roscoe P. Coltrane used to call Enos!


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

DONT you fer get leddyguy

Gooser works out!!!

Gooser


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> DONT you fer get leddyguy
> 
> Gooser works out!!!
> 
> Gooser


Dang Skippy! I seen the pitchers. I was wonderin if I could borrow yer belt. I's plannin on gittin a title this spring.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Hambone84 said:


> Packleader just has the affect on people...Evan is here posting good training info and packie has his own "BBQ The Dog Till He Understands It Method!" LOL Evan did call him a "dipstick", and I havent heard that in a very long time...[/
> 
> Yes I'm due for one of them big Texas style BBQ's.
> 
> Maybe Ken can bring the syrup..


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Hackleader,
> I can tell ya exactly what Mike Lardy is doing in the total retriever series. It don’t make me Mike Lardy, it makes me good at watching TV.
> 
> So did you view Oscars blind retrieve video yet?
> ...


Hi Ken,

Just checked out the video. I'm pretty good at watching TV myself. I wouldn't exactly call that a blid. For one the cam guy looks like a bird boy, and I see branches sticking out of the water only on one end of the pond> Markers for the dog?

I never did see the dog deliver to the handler, looked like he was heading for shore at the end. Other than that it was an impressive swim.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Hi Ken,
> 
> Just checked out the video. I'm pretty good at watching TV myself. I wouldn't exactly call that a blid. For one the cam guy looks like a bird boy, and I see branches sticking out of the water only on one end of the pond> Markers for the dog?


Well that is that then. You really do not know your ass from a hole in the ground.
I’m done with you. Your ignorance is outstanding.

.


----------



## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

wow! I'm impressed, a thread that causes more controversy and response than a thread on show bred/versus field bred....but I still think the "seat on a duck" thread was better...a lot easier to follow..
________
Vapir One Vaporizer


----------



## Beam (Jan 2, 2010)

PackLeader said:


> He asked how I came up with the theory that the collar is like a bell. You don't have to use tone and you don't have to use food it's just an example..As you can see the stim at proper level is the best method.
> 
> Anyway I already told you I have no terminology for it. Do you? does Pat??
> 
> I would love to hear it.


Newbie's stepping in to something that I really think I should stay out of - but this relates to a question I have.

Is the system Packleader is speaking of referred to as "avoidance training?" It was demonstrated on the Sportdog video that came with the 1825. The handler applied light stimulation until the dog performed the desired command. (adjusted before the session so the dog barely noticed it)
They said that the dog will tend to hurry up to avoid stimulation all together.

This was a whole new way of thinking for me and I don't know what I think about it yet. I can see where this would really be a dog by dog scenario.

If I'm on Mars and have embarassed myself by not knowing what the heck is going on - well, sorry. I do that once or twice a day. Ask my wife.


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

ReedCreek said:


> wow! I'm impressed, a thread that causes more controversy and response than a thread on show bred/versus field bred....but I still think the "seat on a duck" thread was better...a lot easier to follow..


Well packie, u still didn't anwser the simple 3 ?s I had for you two pages back, so I'm going to step out on a limb here and say you probably didn't know the anwser and that's fine...I'm gllad your due a bbq texas sytle, on your way to texas, stop in kansas and ill throw an algebra ? On the board and shock you with an e collar until you figure it out...


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Beam said:


> Newbie's stepping in to something that I really think I should stay out of - but this relates to a question I have.
> 
> Is the system Packleader is speaking of referred to as "avoidance training?"
> 
> ...


You are not on Mars (I don't think). I don't know how anyone could understand much about what his system is. That's the point of all this ... after numerous people almost _begging_ for explanations and getting nothing but incoherent balderdash, the "piling on" began and it has digressed to a contentious, albeit entertaining exchange.

A review of his web site reveals little more. Here he writes about "teaching with the e-collar" but nowhere on his site does he mention using electricity. Not sure if he is trying to be politically correct, but he describes there, using his e(lectric)-collar only for "tone" and "sometimes vibration". In these discussions here, he talks about "low level stimulation". If the web site is accurate, we would call it clicker training. If his descriptions here are accurate, we would call it nagging. Good luck getting clarification out of him.

If you don't make sense of it, don't sweat it. If this was summertime and the weather was fit for training, none of these threads would have lasted more than 10 posts. ;-)

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JS said:


> You are not on Mars (I don't think). I don't know how anyone could understand much about what his system is. That's the point of all this ... after numerous people almost _begging_ for explanations and getting nothing but incoherent balderdash, the "piling on" began and it has digressed to a contentious, albeit entertaining exchange.
> 
> A review of his web site reveals little more. Here he writes about "teaching with the e-collar" but nowhere on his site does he mention using electricity. Not sure if he is trying to be politically correct, but he describes there, using his e(lectric)-collar only for "tone" and "sometimes vibration". In these discussions here, he talks about "low level stimulation". If the web site is accurate, we would call it clicker training. If his descriptions here are accurate, we would call it nagging. Good luck getting clarification out of him.
> 
> ...


JS,

I think that's probably been the best post in this mess. When you consider what that distinction might mean it's logical for me to say so long to this way over with thread, and move on to something more useful.

Evan


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The best thing that could happen to this thread is it get deleted because it is just encouraging his googling as his way to stroke his adolescent ego.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I wish I could get the time back that it took me to read this thread...


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I have seen dumber threads than this get deleated I cant believe it still here. I am most sorry that I read it.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Well I thought I just might add the fact that I have mastered the proper handling and shipping of a WENCH (to that Ken fellow)!!

The process is so complete and effective that I have decided not to share it with ANYONE!!!


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I just read this whole thread and I hope someone sent a link to Pat Nolan so he could laugh as hard as I did over it.

FYI PackLeader, have you ever met Pat? Taken one of his seminars or trained with him?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Hambone84 said:


> Well packie, u still didn't anwser the simple 3 ?s I had for you two pages back, so I'm going to step out on a limb here and say you probably didn't know the anwser and that's fine...I'm gllad your due a bbq texas sytle, on your way to texas, stop in kansas and ill throw an algebra ? On the board and shock you with an e collar until you figure it out...


Ham, I already explained in several times and posted links to other's explaining it.
You said you have a different and better method. I won't east my time trying again. Its obvious by the posts and videos the comprehenssion of the collar method for most is still a long ways away. 

Im still waiting for that great heeling video you promised! 


The future is here it just hasn't been evenly distributed yet.


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

JS said:


> You are not on Mars (I don't think). I don't know how anyone could understand much about what his system is. That's the point of all this ... after numerous people almost _begging_ for explanations and getting nothing but incoherent balderdash, the "piling on" began and it has digressed to a contentious, albeit entertaining exchange.
> 
> A review of his web site reveals little more. Here he writes about "teaching with the e-collar" but nowhere on his site does he mention using electricity. Not sure if he is trying to be politically correct, but he describes there, using his e(lectric)-collar only for "tone" and "sometimes vibration". In these discussions here, he talks about "low level stimulation". If the web site is accurate, we would call it clicker training. If his descriptions here are accurate, we would call it nagging. Good luck getting clarification out of him.
> 
> ...


OPEN MESSAGE TO PACKLEADER--- Read the above - "Please" - you are not doing yourself any favors by ignoring the questions. You are appearing to many of us as a phony. 

ErinsEdge "	The best thing that could happen to this thread is it get deleted because it is just encouraging his googling as his way to stroke his adolescent ego. "

Do you get it yet? --- You MAY be able to read dogs - but you sure can't read people.... You can't even take a hint........


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I was going to post how all this related to what you guys do if you want to hear it. I wanted to make sure everyone understood what they seen in the PN videos first. Would you like to hear my method or you having more fun trying to tell me what I know and don't know?


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> Ham, I already explained in several times and posted links to other's explaining it.
> You said you have a different and better method. I won't east my time trying again. Its obvious by the posts and videos the comprehenssion of the collar method for most is still a long ways away.
> 
> Im still waiting for that great heeling video you promised!
> ...


Well if you rxplained it already several times, then I guess Ill mail you my heeling video to the special olympics in 8 weeks, where im sure youll be training when I can walk again ! Dude you win Im officially done with you...I dont have a better method, I follow a Rex Carr Based e collar method, "Smartwork"! You train by teaching with an e collar! Good for you man! Hope you have a nice life, I however wont spend another second being so ignorant as to trying to understand your nonsense!

Jesus Loves You Packleader!
Regards,
Hambone


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> I was going to post how all this related to what you guys do if you want to hear it. I wanted to make sure everyone understood what they seen in the PN videos first. Would you like to hear my method or you having more fun trying to tell me what I know and don't know?


HOW about you answering the numerous questions that have already been asked on this thread?
Here is two -already ask -- one way or another.


1) What is your experience level in the HT or FT game?

2) Why do you insist on talking down to this forum membership?


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## birdog (Nov 20, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> I was going to post how all this related to what you guys do if you want to hear it. I wanted to make sure everyone understood what they seen in the PN videos first. Would you like to hear my method or you having more fun trying to tell me what I know and don't know?


Uggh. Just keep it to yourself, please. At this point I don't care if you've got the best method for teaching a dog to MARSHALL a trial. Im exhausted just reading this. 

I for one, don't need your condescending attempts at drumming up business.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I give as much respect as I get..apparently you don't read everything because in the other thread you seemed to think that I don't use an ecollar at all. You asked why I train with a leash, and why I am against the collar??

I agree I can't explain everything clearly when I have people asking me all different questions in three different threads while others take cheap shots.


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> I give as much respect as I get..apparently you don't read everything because in the other thread you seemed to think that I don't use an ecollar at all. You asked why I train with a leash, and why I am against the collar??
> 
> I agree I can't explain everything clearly when I have people asking me all different questions in three different threads while others take cheap shots.


OK - Chris - I am going over the edge-- Sorry..



You Packleader --- I could retire on you............

I would love to buy you for what you are worth........... AND Then..................
Sell you for what you think you are worth......... and retire on the difference.................

DONE.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> I give as much respect as I get.... .


try this



but don't let it hit ya in the backside


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

Packleader,

I guess your right, maybe in the moment I was confused, earlier in this post I asked you three basic simple questions, and you didnt reply to them just gave me some b.s. Anwser the questions and then I'll respect the fact you anwsered em...You dont have to but I would like you to anwser em. 

Better yet just anwser these 2?"

1. How is "Teaching" with the e collar more effective than reinforcing known commands?

2. Please explain how you and I mean "YOU" would TEACH the command "Here" with an e collar?

Thanks Jamie


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

_"...Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


_


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

12-12-2009, 03:46 PM #7 





Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 299


PackLeader said:


> I use two ropes and I back tie the dog with one and then take the 50 footer and walk away from the dog. I tell the dog to down, once he is laying down I tell him sit and I pull on the rope to guide him into a sit while using collar pressue.
> 
> Once the dog is consistently sitting and downing away from me like this I start using the whistle. I just pull the rope and make him sit when needed.
> 
> ...


I think the reason that he can't explain how he teaches with the e=collar is because he does not.... on this thread he is teaching with a rope, and that was posted less than a month ago .

I suggested low level stim. applied to the rump.... I said to use a level 1, which is as low as one can go with a TT collar. 
At that point he responded "When I need to start training a dog with pain techniques I need to rethink my job as a trainer."

When I referred him to the Dobbs method of doing so, he said "I think that is geared more toward how to teach a new dog to sit." 

In another post on the thread he equated the low level stimulation to a "rump roast.............

I could go on and on citing his inconsistencies but have decided not to bother..............


john


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

Good point! He wont anwser the 2 questions above, but if he did im sure the "Pros" on this site would tear his butt hole apart, while "joes" like me would be very confused as Packleader would say!


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

First Post

What is a remote trainer? 
Remote training collars allow you to reinforce commands and correct your dog's unwanted behaviors from a distance - whether that distance is 20 feet or over a mile for some models.

We suggest that your dog be at least 5 - 6 months old before using a remote collar for two reasons. 

•First, your dog needs to have a basic understanding of what is expected of him, and know basic commands. 
•Secondly, by this age he is probably big enough and heavy enough to comfortably support the weight of the collar.

All remote trainers are intended for two basic purposes: 

1.To reinforce already-learned behaviors, such as obedience commands - Your dog learns to "turn-off" the unpleasant stimulus by performing the command correctly.
2.To correct unwanted behaviors, such as digging, chewing, jumping up, etc. - Your dog learns to associate the unpleasant stimulation with the unwanted behavior. 
Here are two very basic samples, which illustrate the main remote-training steps. Reinforce an Already-Learned Behavior ("Sit") Correct Unwanted Behaviors (Digging) 
1.Teach your dog the "sit" command using conventional training methods. (No remote collar.)
2.Once you are absolutely sure your dog understands what "sit" means, start with the collar. Use a pre-selected level of intensity. 
3.With your dog on a leash and at your side, walk forward a few steps and come to a stop, giving the "sit" command (with no stimulation). This reminds your dog of the "sit" command.
4.Repeat step 3, but this time when you say "sit," press the continuous stimulation button of your remote trainer, then say "sit" again. 
5.Release the button the moment your dog sits, and praise him. 
6.If he gets up before you release him, press the button again as you command "sit." Release the button when he sits back down.
7.Release your dog from his sit after a few moments, and walk him to a new place in the training area. Repeat this process a few times. 
8.End the session on a positive note with some fun playtime.
By the third lesson, your dog should be trying to anticipate the "sit" command. Once he reaches this point, he is ready to move on to distraction training. Some dogs may progress even faster. 1.Use a pre-selected level of intensity.
2.Leave your dog in an area where he likes to dig, and watch him without his knowing.
3.Press the stimulation button the moment he starts to dig.
4.If your dog ignores the correction, raise the intensity by one level.
5.Continue the training process until your dog has gone for three days without trying to dig.
IMPORTANT! During the training period, do not give your dog a chance to dig if you cannot correct him. 

Okay so my questions in which you seem not to want to answer questions are. If these are taken off of a link on your website. How do you teach with an e-collar when all I can read in the link is re-enforce commands.

Also if you teach with an e-collar, what is the boxer doing without an e-collar on and you are using treats to teach?

Also, why is there music on every video instead of you talking us through what is going on?

Also, two of your links are linked and wrong and imagine this, they are linked to sitmeanssit.com

I have read enough of you desecrating the sport that I love and individuals that have forgotten more than you will ever know about dog training. 

Also you speak of choke collars and pinch collars most of us on this site use one of the two very shortly to train formal obedience in the six month range.

I think enough has been said toward you and you decide to give no one insight into what you do because you do not know anything.

Go get some titles in any venue and come back and tell us how great you are as of now just go away as the pain in the neck that you have been for all of us.


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

In addition to the above, a Pet Detective named Jaime Genereux offered to help with his dog Trigger, who is trained in scent selective tracking. Genereux is the CEO of Packleader, a dog training organization that specializes in detection dogs. Together, Jaime and Trigger have found 22 missing cats since February. They ventured out with Lauren on Aug. 13, but unfortunately Trigger couldn't pick up Leo's scent which was perhaps due to the recent string of rainy days we had. It was hopeful that at least Leo wasn't found dead. There have been a handful of sightings but they have all led to a dead end, leaving Lauren and Andrew with dashed hopes. Their home is empty without Leo. He is very entertaining and loves to unravel toilet paper, an annoying stunt but greatly missed. His absence has especially taken a toll on his feline friend Max. They were close buds, joined at the hip so to speak. And then there's the two canines Oliver and Annie who are wondering where the heck that handsome guy Leo is.

Sure am glad to have someone that is so qualified to tell us how to run a 200 yard blind with obstacles.


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

Well put, but just for the record "Pete" explained to me last night in the chat room what Packie never could explain...Pete made alot of since on the method he used, when i say he made since I mean that he logically explained their system and how they "Teach" using the e collar...Pete also said that he still uses the e collar to reinforce known commands, but also teaches with the collar..

That being said, if Packie would have even came close to the explanation pete did, we probably wouldnt be having this explanation, but then again Packie has tried to make pros like Evan on here look dumb, and it came back to bite him on the ass...

Anyhows well put!

But moving on, think the Braves have a shot at the pennet? or do the Bill's have a chance at the playoffs?

LOL


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## Clark (Aug 10, 2008)

CLindsay said:


> In addition to the above, a Pet Detective named Jaime Genereux offered to help with his dog Trigger, who is trained in scent selective tracking. Genereux is the CEO of Packleader, a dog training organization that specializes in detection dogs. Together, Jaime and Trigger have found 22 missing cats since February. They ventured out with Lauren on Aug. 13, but unfortunately Trigger couldn't pick up Leo's scent which was perhaps due to the recent string of rainy days we had. It was hopeful that at least Leo wasn't found dead. There have been a handful of sightings but they have all led to a dead end, leaving Lauren and Andrew with dashed hopes. Their home is empty without Leo. He is very entertaining and loves to unravel toilet paper, an annoying stunt but greatly missed. His absence has especially taken a toll on his feline friend Max. They were close buds, joined at the hip so to speak. And then there's the two canines Oliver and Annie who are wondering where the heck that handsome guy Leo is.
> 
> Sure am glad to have someone that is so qualified to tell us how to run a 200 yard blind with obstacles.












According to this ad..Ace Ventura is the ONLY pet detective.....are you calling him a liar?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Maybe it's my eyes but...I don't see a collar being used in the last referenced video.
> 
> john





john fallon said:


> Of course the dog has a collar on and the trainer has a transmitter, but......
> 
> Are you suggesting that Pat is correcting with a "cold" collar correction ? For some reason I don't think so. Remember now, Pat uses a Carr based system.
> 
> ...





john fallon said:


> An extention of that is *not* what is happening in the video
> 
> john






john fallon said:


> He does not normally use them as part of his training regimen
> 
> john





john fallon said:


> In the video in question?.... Without comment ? Somehow I doubt that.
> 
> john





john fallon said:


> Only when someone is "pissing on my boot" and telling me that it's rain.;-)
> 
> john





Hambone84 said:


> Remote was used in the description because the dog wasnt at his side in my opinion, not because it was fixing to be a BBQ! I dont think he used the e collar in the video in my opinion. And again IS there really that many people out there that use a E collar to "TEACH"?
> 
> Packleader, are you close to Kansas?





john fallon said:


> Again you appear to have it wrong.
> He put the word remote(read distant: located far away spatially) in the description and appears* to you *to have a transmitter in his hand.
> 
> john





john fallon said:


> Puppy working on an e-collar ????????
> 
> I'm not discussing anything but but the first video that you posted as an example and that was not its title.
> 
> ...





john fallon said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyrRO0a7MeM
> 
> This is the video in question I need no further reference information to know what is going on here.
> 
> ...


Can you say FLip FLop?

If you recognize what Pat was doing in the video and it's the same method you have been using for years then why do I need to explain myself??? 

Read my post on teaching a dog to heel that I posted months ago..Compair it to the Link I posted of PN teaching the heel with an ecollar.

By the word "Teach" I mean that I use it during every faze of the training program, even at the start when I am using food.

If all you needed to do was push a button to teach a dog to do something we would all have great dogs now wouldn't we? I have always said that I teach using food or a toy or a long line, read my post in this thread on how to teach place with the e-collar, I guide the dog!!

Good you forgot more than I will ever know about dog training, Just like Ken, you are also invited to come compair methods with me..

I see no posts by anyone explaining how to use an e-collar in a training program. It easy to say "I use the Carr system.."

Explain to me how your e-collar method works on a 250 foot blind with a 20 mile an hour wind..Then explain when, where, and how you use the collar during blinds, FF, and directional work....


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Clark said:


> According to this ad..Ace Ventura is the ONLY pet detective.....are you calling him a liar?


Yes I think he is http://www.missingpetpartnership.org/


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Explain to me how your e-collar method works on a 250 foot blind with a 20 mile an hour wind..Then explain when, where, and how you use the collar during blinds, FF, and directional work....


Here is exactly what I would do based on Carr/Lardy Programs.

The dog is set-up on the blind. Dog takes good intial line but begins to scallop (Please tell me you know what a scallop is) I would stop with the whistle. If I do not get a quick sit it would be a nick for direct pressure for sit. With a quick sit, I give what we call a cast or handle which hopefully by now you know what that is. If the cast is taken correctly and carried for period conducive to the ability of the dog then whistle if the dogs gets off line and recast. If the dog does not take the initial cast then I whistle for sit again. I check for factors that might make it possible for the dog to see me i.e. background. The dog gets a freebie on inititial cast. If the dog does not take the second cast then whistle sit nick recast that is what we call indirect pressure. We continue this until the dog is at the blind.

Very few people force fetch with a collar as opposed to ear pinch or toe hitch. 

Now if you are talking about forcing that is a whole other avenue in which the dog will go through learning techniques then the dog will be forced by the collar to comply with saids commands i.e. force to the pile ( forced on back to a known pile) force to water (forced into water and to a known pile)


Directional work is started by me at a very young age on the table will no collar pressure. Once again I teach before I nick or burn or in you words use mild stimulation or if you look at your website tones and vibrations. 

I then go two simple casting,mini t,simple t and double t then to swimby.

The thing that i love about this is you have not a clue about any of these training terminology. 

Buy you a DVD from Even or Mike You may learn what our retriever world is like. 

By the way I thought this was a retriever forum looking at your website I do not see very many ion fact you reference pit bulls seveal time in your blog.

See the internet is a small place some of us know how to read. Enough for now.

I would love to see a training video by you showing us a 200 yard blind not feet again we measure in yards not feet.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

"Packleader trains with an e-collar" video --

http://www.youtube.com/user/Trigger51506#p/u/7/eBJ0yJxWF_Q

Packleader's own forum --

http://pub48.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=4061818064&frmid=488&cmd=showrecent&cp=1


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> Now if you are talking about forcing that is a whole other avenue in which the dog will go through learning techniques then the dog will be forced by the collar to comply with saids commands i.e. force to the pile ( forced on back to a known pile) force to water (forced into water and to a known pile)


This is what I wan't to know about...How do you start it and how does it work?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

AmiableLabs said:


> "Packleader trains with an e-collar" video --
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Trigger51506#p/u/7/eBJ0yJxWF_Q
> 
> ...


The dog was trained to recall for the tone for noisy situations like high wind, construction, or simple when the dog it out of vocal range. How is this different than a whistle?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> This is what I wan't to know about...How do you start it and how does it work?


http://www.ybsmedia.com/NewMikeLardy.html


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

A question from you wow.

Okay, I start force to the pile by putting a pile of 15 bumpers at the one hunded yard mark. I start at ten yards identify the pile by throwing bumper into the pile. Now I have already trained on back with by table work and the simple three handed casting. I alternate using a side send and a remote send for the dog moving back further on each send as long as the dog goes and comes in line ie not a banana peel. This is the first day of running to the pile. If all goes well the next day you can stare to force to the pile with the collar. The dog also has to be collar conditioned prior to this with known commands to know how to get out of the pressure. A dog has seen many aversives through training and the e-collar is just another. Now I am at the ten yard line and I send on Back as long as something crazy like the dogs name is Yack or I would use fetch carried over from FF. As the dog leaves your side nick back nick back nick back three times is what i shoot for bu tobviously distance matters. Also do not use pressure on every send you will create hotspots and create a flaring problem. I usually do one on one off unless it is a soft dog and I may do one on two off. When you send from the remote position timing is everything when the dog is in its turn is when the first nick back should be.

The dog should be brought back all the way to the one hundred yard line at this point FTP is finished unless you have a situation in the next training day of a no go. FTP is to ensure comliance to the back command every time it is given. We can not tollerate no go's.


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Let me blow my Green Monster in your ear?


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Yeah a Lardy Video series or even a seminar would be great for you?


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

I know you have never had a collar malfunction but I have a whistle is around my neck if my is out.


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

If my dog is out


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> Let me blow my Green Monster in your ear?


That would work, except every other dog on the ruble pile would probably come down

It was simply a personal choice not a training method.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> Yeah a Lardy Video series or even a seminar would be great for you?


I'm already planing some for the spring. As you explain it I don't see how the e-collar methods are that different from what I was already taught.

But I the rest of the content is what I need anyway.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> The dog was trained to recall for the tone for noisy situations like high wind, construction, or simple when the dog it out of vocal range. How is this different than a whistle?


The e-collar is a training tool. We don't run our dogs with training tools (it is against the rules) we train with training tools.

If we trained our dogs to recall to a tone on the e-collar we would be s-o-l.

But my point about the video is more general. To a dog trainer, there is A LOT more to see there than just demonstrating recall to a tone.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

AmiableLabs said:


> The e-collar is a training tool. We don't run our dogs with training tools (it is against the rules) we train with training tools.
> 
> If we trained our dogs to recall to a tone on the e-collar we would be s-o-l.


I know this..

This dog is not training for FT. But he comes just the same for a three whistle blows, 1 blow for sit, he also knows forced directional work, and he was FF.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Retrieving is his reward system for searching, and boy he loves to fetch..LOL 

This is what keeps a great search dog going when a lesser dog would quit..The "DRIVE" for the bumper, or what ever else you have to throw..


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

PL--When you grow tired of trying to train us idiots I would move onto teaching other things. You obviously have a talent.

I would start with a forum on College Football. Maybe there you would run into people like Dr. Tom Osborne, Bobby Bowden or even Joe Paterno. You could teach them all about your new way to get the most out of the current college FB player. I'm guessing that the e-collar would be part of the players uniform moving forward. With your proven methods even the Sun Belt could be a power house.

Maybe then you could move onto informing the NASCAR drivers how to improve their times by a little Pit Crew stimulation. Heck with this NEW method maybe Kyle Petty will get into the winners circle.

Your talents on "reading a dog" are legendary. You have an ability like I've never seen before. I wouldn't waist your time with us or retrievers any longer. Please move onto bigger and better things.

Best Wishes,

The Retriever Community


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

AmiableLabs said:


> The e-collar is a training tool. We don't run our dogs with training tools (it is against the rules) we train with training tools.
> 
> If we trained our dogs to recall to a tone on the e-collar we would be s-o-l.
> 
> But my point about the video is more general. To a dog trainer, there is A LOT more to see there than just demonstrating recall to a tone.


Most of them videos are just for fun they are not training videos by any means. This is a better example of me working my dog with the ecollar.

I meshed sit, down in motion, and recall with hand signals. I use a whistle recall in this video at times. My dog was 12 mo.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Trigger51506#p/u/12/JmDTlOp3AgI


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> > Originally Posted by john fallon
> > Maybe it's my eyes but...I don't see a collar being used in the last referenced video.
> >
> > john
> ...


Is that suppose to be some kind of a rebuttal of my posts

It is not. 

Try taking then one by one so I can have it in black and white where you see vindication by the referencing of them......

As to a_ Carr based program_.
Pack,one can be counted as a _green as grass Noob to Retriever training_ if generally speaking they don't know at least what is meant by that .

As I told you before,it is/they are a step by step regimented program(s), taught in a logical sequence *developed specifically in response to the demands for effectively training retrievers*.

The chronology of this/these system(s),is/are identified by a flow chart(s) which should be adhered too fairly ridigedly , at the very least through the transition stage, so, when problems arise, ideally, they can be discussed /addressed using a common vernacular, a set of common *benchmarks*,and in terms of the dogs response relative to his degree of training/proficiency within these benchmarks.

The Ad Hock methods that you appear to be suggesting be employed instead, have no formal frame of refrence and are therefore are useless in this regard.

Speaking in tongues regards
john


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Is that suppose to be some kind of a rebuttal of my posts
> 
> It is not.
> 
> ...


John,

This all erupted because I showed a simple clip of how I do directional work with an e-collar..

I only posted the original question to figure out how my collar method would jive with training program. I was not claiming I now it all......If you would have said after the second post of this thread.. Jamie you were right, sorry for taking diggers at you, I would have said TY John! Noob or no Noob I know what I see and I don't like no one pissing in my corn flakes either john

Next time I will just shut up and agree....

Lesson learned John TY..


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

This is the most incoherent thread I've ever read. At least the "seat on a duck" thread was intertaining. I pine for the good ole days...

fp


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> This is the most incoherent thread I've ever read. At least the "seat on a duck" thread was intertaining. I pine for the good ole days...
> 
> fp


My thoughts exactly!
________
California Mdecial Marijuana Dispensaries


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *CLindsay*
> _Now if you are talking about forcing that is a whole other avenue in which the dog will go through learning techniques then the dog will be forced by the collar to comply with saids commands i.e. force to the pile ( forced on back to a known pile) force to water (forced into water and to a known pile)_





PackLeader said:


> This is what I wan't to know about...How do you start it and how does it work?


PL, it is refreshing to see you asking. Hopefully, it is a sincere effort to understand what is being said and discussed by people in _this_ game.

You will not learn what CLindsay is talking about in a quick post or a video. The programs we use start out with the puppy when you bring him home and continue through basic training in a step-by-step, building block format. They are based on _teaching_ the dog various commands using positive reinforcement and in a systematic order/progression that makes sense to the dog and facilitates easier learning.

Then, just because a dog _knows_ a command does not mean he will reliably _perform_ it in the face of extreme distractions. So, we then go about _proofing_ the command and introducing corrections ... most of us use the e-collar combined with other methods of correction. Some choose not to use the e-collar for the correction, but their approach is generally similar. (when I say we use the e-collar, I am referring to the aversive electrical stimulation; not the tone or the vibration.)

The average age for a dog to complete basics is somewhere around a year, plus or minus. The period we call transition can take another year. (these time frames are very arbitrary, BTW) From there on, it is a life long process ... the average age for a dog to acquire the skills and finesse to achieve a Field Championship, I would guess is around 5-6 years. A dog under 4 yrs of age that is competitive at the AA level is rare. By competitive, I mean one that is able to simply complete a trial. This is a testament to the difficulty and complexity of the work. You may say that a better training method would reduce that time. Probably not. We are all open to better methods, HOWEVER as dogs get better, judges just ramp up the difficulty of the tests. ;-) No matter how much better the dogs get, they'll still be judging to find the best.

So asking for a quick explanation of all this over the internet is unrealistic. Somewhere here, someone posted a "flow chart" from Mike Lardy's material. You can search for that or look for it on his web site or the Smartwork site and that will give you a general outline of how things are approached. At each step of the way, the procedure is 1) teach, 2) proof, 3) enforce, 4) correct. Bear in mind, many good trainers tweak these methods, some more than others, and are successful. But when they do, they do so with a great amount of forethought and make certain all the steps are accounted for.

Believe me, I have played a few other dog games and, though I don't consider myself an expert _by any means_, I am at least familiar with other training methods and the demands of other dog games. Now I have a question for you. Maybe there is a huge communication gap that is contributing to our difficulties here. When you talk about using the e-collar, do you mean you are using the _electrical_ _stimulation_ (shocking the dog) as an aversive, or do you mean you are using the tone/vibration as a marker for either correction or reward? Or a combination of the two? If you use both functions, can you briefly describe how each is used?

Or is the tone/vibration used as a _command_? Is the electrical stimulation used as a _command_?

Thank you.

JS


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Come Clean Packleader!

Jhoggat Stated: 

_HOW about you answering the numerous questions that have already been asked on this thread?
Here is two -already ask -- one way or another.

1) What is your experience level in the HT or FT game?_

I googled Jamie Genereux and he has his own web site and training program. Congrats on the business and I am not writing this taking any shots at you. There is no mention of Hunt Test or Field trial on his site. So I would guess his answer would be no.

It does mention ecollar training and a seminar with the sit means sit owner CEO Fred Hassen. I mention the sit means sit guy because I have some experience with this method by way of a local trainer who also has Protection and a SAR background. He ownes the local sit means sit franchise. The local guy has a very simular program to Packleaders. 

Now that I set the table, the local sit means sit trainer came out to my house so that I could demonstrate retriever training for Hunt Tests. My credentials can also be googled also under Joe Brakke (pay no attention to any Josephs, not me). First four pages will give you an idea. That being said, I am with the rest of them here. That is I learn something new every day and each day I learn how little I really do think I know about retirever training. Each day is a new learning experieince and in each conversation with a retirever person, I learn even more. Ya just got to listen. I see this site as a learning experience and I thank all of the Ken Boras and Evans and J Hoggatt and even Gooser for their thoughts for the day.

Anyways, going back to the sit means sit / Protection and SAR trainer. He came to my house and I demonstrated some basic handling work in the way of a double T over 100 yards. He was highly impressed in our methods and control. This was a beginner senior dog (got 3 of them). He then demonstrated to me his remote control using a ecollar. I was impressed also. It just was not pointed in the direction of a retrieve, but impressive none the less.

So, my point is you got to answer direct questions on this site or you will just cause a bunch of trouble. The methods we all use are tried and proven. I have seen some openess to new approaches but ya got to be able to back it up and that does not mean I have two dogs that do well with it. What matters here is I have titled X many dogs in X venue.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

JS said:


> PL, it is refreshing to see you asking. Hopefully, it is a sincere effort to understand what is being said and discussed by people in _this_ game.
> 
> You will not learn what CLindsay is talking about in a quick post or a video. The programs we use start out with the puppy when you bring him home and continue through basic training in a step-by-step, building block format. They are based on _teaching_ the dog various commands using positive reinforcement and in a systematic order/progression that makes sense to the dog and facilitates easier learning.
> 
> ...


JS,

They are never used as commands, when I use the vibration the method is more like escape training. When I use tones it is used not to mark a behavior but to break a dogs attention. In the most basic format it's BEEP "come" reward.

As for the stim based training method, I use it on all of my dogs except for 1. I learned in the early stages with my Boxer that the stim was not going to work on him. I used tones in the beginning and now I use vibration on him. When we tried using stims to "out" him on bite work he would just fight back harder. Had to switch to plan B.

As far as my page, I put tones and vibration so people would understand that I can train the dog with an e-collar and not use the SHOCK that many people are so afraid of because they hear too much talk of BURNS on INTERNET sites.

Up here the collar is not that infomouse..Many people go with the vibration methods and some also prefer the tone before the stim. We had people leave seminars as soon as they heard we are not going to teach the tone first method. 

I have a very specific program for my stim based collar training that starts with come, then heel, then sit, then place..If I spend to much time on heel before I teach the dog to go away from me using the stim..They become to clingy and I have a harder time pushing them away with the collar. 

Short answer to your question is no I do not use them in place of commands unless the owner specifically asks that the dog also come for the tone or a vocal command. 

Some old people simply can't yell in order to bring the dog in from a distance, and they don't like pissing the neighbors off at night with a whistle.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Bayou Magic said:


> This is the most incoherent thread I've ever read. At least the "seat on a duck" thread was intertaining. I pine for the good ole days...
> 
> fp


this thread reminds me of picking up after my dog in the back yard.

"sh!t means sh!t" regards

sure fits it better.......


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Mucken&Ducken said:


> Come Clean Packleader!
> 
> Jhoggat Stated:
> 
> ...


I have non I already mentioned that. But I will say this about the SMS. It used to take 2 or three years to get a dog ready for a FEMA certification with all the directional work and everything involved. Recently a SMS trained dog made a great find down in TX. It's my understanding that the dog was very young and not even certified yet.

They do in 8 month's what used to take year's. That sure drew my attention. 
I understand this is a different game, but if you think that is cake frosting try it sometime.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> JS,
> 
> They are never used as commands, when I use the vibration the method is more like escape training.


What are they escaping? Is the vibration naturally aversive or have you chained it to some other aversive such as a leash pop or a stick or a collar nick? Am I understanding you _teach_ something using a conventional method and then enforce it using the vibration as an aversive (escape)?



> When I use tones it is used not to mark a behavior but to break a dogs attention. In the most basic format it's BEEP "come" reward.


I don't understand the term "to break a dogs attention". Do you mean to _get_ his attention? Similar to calling his name before giving a command?


JS


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

JS said:


> What are they escaping? Is the vibration naturally aversive or have you chained it to some other aversive such as a leash pop or a stick or a collar nick? Am I understanding you _teach_ something using a conventional method and then enforce it using the vibration as an aversive (escape)?
> 
> 
> I don't understand the term "to break a dogs attention". Do you mean to _get_ his attention? Similar to calling his name before giving a command?
> ...


Re:Tone In the most basic form yes. Is it an aversive? You would have to ask the guys in the white coats.

I can try to explain it like the mouse and cage..

You have a mouse in a cage with a light and a box. You turn the light on, the mouse might run at first, it may even burn his eyes. Once he discovers that the light is a cue that food is in the box everything changes. 

Light goes on mouse runs to the box..does he think of the light as an aversive? I would think that he looks forward to the light coming on wouldn't you?

Someone posted a new thread about sometimes my dog doesn't come for a command.

How many times does he not come when the food hit's the bottom of the bowl?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> Re:Tone In the most basic form yes. Is it an aversive? You would have to ask the guys in the white coats.
> 
> I can try to explain it like the mouse and cage..
> 
> ...


I knew I had heard your name before. Your that guy on the Green Mile movie that trained that mouse for the mouse circus.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

duk4me said:


> I knew I had heard your name before.  Your that guy on the Green Mile movie that trained that mouse for the mouse circus.


LMFAO

Cheers!


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Could some one take Pat Nolans name off the heading of this thread. I think it could be mistaken by new people as defending or promoting an ideology or philosophy in training dogs that is not being presented in such a manner that could be considered proffessional or even coherent at this point.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

greg magee said:


> Could some one take Pat Nolans name off the heading of this thread. I think it could be mistaken by new people as defending or promoting an ideology or philosophy in training dogs that is not being presented in such a manner that could be considered proffessional or even coherent at this point.


I absolutely agree with this.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Re:Tone In the most basic form yes. Is it an aversive? You would have to ask the guys in the white coats.
> 
> I can try to explain it like the mouse and cage..
> 
> ...


This is what is confusing me. I got you on the mouse thing (had my own rats in school ;-)). But there, you have _conditioned_ the light to be a _reinforcer_. Light = food. Could just as easily condition the tone to be a reinforcer ... using food or praise (which is actually itself a conditioned reinforcer, usually accompanied by some sort of fondling). Tone = food.

But how have you conditioned the tone to be an _aversive_? Escape or avoidance training is negative reinforcement (R-). You _remove_ or _cease_ something that the dog doesn't like (aversive) when the dog complies or performs the behavior you want. Thus the behavior is more likely to reoccur. This is how Force Fetch works.

If the tone can be used as both a positive AND a negative, then that means it must have been conditioned as such. It has no inherent quality. What makes it aversive?

Seriously trying to get this.

JS



> You would have to ask the guys in the white coats.


Are you referring to the guys in the lab or the guys in field trials??


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

JS said:


> This is what is confusing me. I got you on the mouse thing (had my own rats in school ;-)). But there, you have _conditioned_ the light to be a _reinforcer_. Light = food. Could just as easily condition the tone to be a reinforcer ... using food or praise (which is actually itself a conditioned reinforcer, usually accompanied by some sort of fondling). Tone = food.
> 
> But how have you conditioned the tone to be an _aversive_? Escape or avoidance training is negative reinforcement (R-). You _remove_ or _cease_ something that the dog doesn't like (aversive) when the dog complies or performs the behavior you want. Thus the behavior is more likely to reoccur. This is how Force Fetch works.
> 
> ...


JS,

Is your alarm clock aversive? How long do you let it ring before you perform your conditioned behavior of reaching over and hitting snooze? Do you even think about it or is it a conditioned response?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> JS,
> 
> Is your alarm clock aversive? How long do you let it ring before you perform your conditioned behavior of reaching over and hitting snooze? Do you even think about it or is it a conditioned response?


It would not be an aversive. It would be a marker, like a clicker. I've been reluctant to re-enter this conversation, but it finally turned to training.:shock:

Is that how you're using the tone feature?

Evan


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2010)

jeff t. said:


> I absolutely agree with this.


I agree, too... It's all getting old. I was just trying to be fair in my post as PL was correct in regard to this video.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I agree, too... It's all getting old. I was just trying to be fair in my post as PL was correct in regard to this video.


In my opinion, it was old when this thread was started!

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=544418&postcount=107

I wrote the above on Friday that Pat was a non-participant in this thread and I did not care for his being brought into the argument by the individual who initated it.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I agree, too... It's all getting old. I was just trying to be fair in my post as PL was correct in regard to this video.


I know I'm nobody, but by chance isn't all the controversy driven by what is on a persons personal web site? Example Given: PackLeader and that fellow we understand as "Sit Means Sit" Fred Hanssen (spelling?) actually have the crux of the entire contriversy based on the simple fact they offer a system of training that is proprietary?? Least it seems that way to me.

Take a look for a moment and go to thier website's, I believe and if I am wrong please forgive, they are working a training program based on a system that can only be learned if you pay your way through the system of training they offer?

Nothing wrong with that if you ask me, really business is business and no has to give away company secrets.. Not an issue.

But the CRUX of this continued battle is over detail's on how to train.

I believe anyone has the right to only offer details if they desire to do so, buy it or leave it. Makes sense to me and this should be just fine under the constitution we all live under.

But.. The problem is you have many who are willing to share details, i.e Evan Graham, many more that have programs for training that are excepted and shared, to bad this one is a mystery?

If you go to Sit means Sit, I believe you can see how much it costs to get trained in this program.

Mean time I will try to figure out how to better serve the training program I have purchased, that being Smartwork...

So the problem then becomes when someone premotes a program to the point it requires substantiation, then that is a situation that requires defining and showing, telling. If that is not possible due to lack of experience, then it would be me getting roasted as well....

Much like Lardy I think, and much like many other's, even those who choose the Lardy on Steriod's system (for which I am still investigating!)..

Alrighty then, I actually posted a post that has substance, or at least I hope so.

Keep it training, keep it real, we appreciate those who do!


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> In my opinion, it was old when this thread was started!
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=544418&postcount=107
> 
> I wrote the above on Friday that Pat was a non-participant in this thread and I did not care for his being brought into the argument by the individual who initated it.


I was more curious than trying to win the debate over whether Pat was using pressure there. Personally I find Pat's answer totally compelling. I would have never thought he was using the collar to that extent -- NOT that it's a bad thing. Watching the video, I would have thought the dog received no pressure collar, which is why I was suprised at Pat's answer. I really enjoy Pat's videos. I think he does an incredible job with them adn I've never heard anything but great things about him and his training.

I just wanted to give PL credit for that -- at THAT time -- because everyone had beat him down for it. Now, as far as all the other stuff... But I didn't realize the extent to which the sentiment was going at the time I posted this.

Whatever you guys feel is the right thing to do with this thread is absolutely fine with me. I have no problem either way and I certainly would have never meant it to be an issue regarding bringing Pat up.

-K


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I was more curious than trying to win the debate over whether Pat was using pressure there. Personally I find Pat's answer totally compelling. I would have never thought he was using the collar to that extent -- NOT that it's a bad thing. Watching the video, I would have thought the dog received no pressure collar, which is why I was suprised at Pat's answer. I really enjoy Pat's videos. I think he does an incredible job with them adn I've never heard anything but great things about him and his training.
> 
> I just wanted to give PL credit for that -- at THAT time -- because everyone had beat him down for it. Now, as far as all the other stuff... But I didn't realize the extent to which the sentiment was going at the time I posted this.
> 
> ...


It's all good Kristie,

I've made about a thousand mistakes on RTF. I'm not here to say you made one. But if you have, you're in good company.

So I'm not here to cast stones.

I'm hoping that your reply, as well as a few others will help folks realize that feeding the unaccomplished, un-verified, and unable to produce credentials, only enables the behavior.

It's a bit like rewarding undesirable behavior by a dog. If you keep doing what you've done, you keep getting what you've gotten.

Packleader, I hope you MH, FC/AFC a pile of dogs and show us a better way....

Until then, many of us will remain, understandably, focused on methods that produce results. (meaning measurable FT/HT/hunting results, not outside venues that may or may not match up with what we need out of our dogs)


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## birdog (Nov 20, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Packleader, I hope you MH, FC/AFC a pile of dogs and show us a better way....
> 
> Until then, many of us will remain, understandably, focused on methods that produce results. (meaning measurable FT/HT/hunting results, not outside venues that may or may not match up with what we need out of our dogs)


Chris- Very well said...


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