# surgical AI success rate poll



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

hopefully will be getting a pup from a surgical AI breeding to take in the next month or so....

the many stories of such breedings has me wondering what the normal success ratio is, for surgical AI's.

I do realize that there are many factors involved...semen quality, age of bitch, etc etc....

I am mostly just curious as to what a typical litter size is...(if there is such a thing! LOL)

multiple votes allowed...I realize the poll will not allow for all 'scenarios'....such as if you've had more than one surgical AI that resulted in no puppies....if you feel like noting that in a post, please do so.

also, would like to keep the info limited to surgical AI's.

thanks!
Juli


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Had one litter 12,one 13,third was 0 ......


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

pups 8,8,10,1


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

One frozen AI TCI litter (that's trans cervical implantation; less invasive) for a variety of reasons the TCI was done a day or two later than when the vet thought was the right timing: 4 pups. One frozen AI breeding where the vet did both surgical + TCI implantation: 9 pups out of the same bitch, who was 8 at the time. So I didn't check a box.... both were frozen AI breedings, but the second was 2 procedures done 24 hrs. apart, surgical first.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Two surgical AI frozen semen breedings, 3 and 5 pups.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Three frozen AI's with three different females and three different males. Two litters of 10 and one litter with none. In the two successful litters, motility was 50% and 80%. In the litter with no pups (five straws instead of three), motility was 30%. That female had one litter previously with seven pups, and two litters since with 10 and 12. Moral of the story: more straws don't necessarily make up for sperm that can't swim. My general assumption is that the female primarily determines the number of pups in the litter assuming that the male meets basic standards for fertility. If fertility is marginal the likelihood of no pups goes up dramatically.


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## double m kennels (Feb 11, 2008)

We did one surgical AI getting 6 puppies


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

2 surgical implants with frozen semen... 4 and 2 and I used the best repo vets in my area...

Timing is so crucial. 

If it works it works well. When it doesn't it really doesn't.

I'll do it again. I just wasn't lucky either time...

Angie


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## Amy Avery (Feb 17, 2005)

7, 8, 8 (these were with frozen) I just had one done on 11/26 with fresh chilled (keeping my finger crossed!)


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

hey you all... it is a mulitple choice poll...if you got zero, pls include that option in your vote. 

Juli


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Last 12 years ALL pups born at Gator Point Kennel were frozen semen/surgical implant.
2 litters 0 pups
63 (sixty three) litters from 3 pups to 13 pups If we had deposits on mostly females we got mostly males and vice verse.

Dr. Greene and Associates at Folsom, LA did the timing, sent a sample to Cornell for an RIA test and did the surgery with great success. We owe them for a whole lot of pups due to their dedication. They have done surgery on 4th of July and on Christmas Eve (without extra charge) and even let me stand by and watch (as long as I touched nothing).THEY ARE GOOD!!! Timing is so important.

This has caused less stress on the male (he wasn't even there) less stress on the bitch (no rambunctious male romping all over her) and LESS STRESS ON ME. I used to get so tired of sitting in a chair, holding the females head and with my right foot trying to keep the female elevated and her butt off the floor. I know they can get the job done by themselves, but they can be like teen agers too.

I'm all for frozen semen, surgical implant and yes, we've been very lucky and once again, thank you again Dr. Gary Greene and staff.
________
WEB SHOWS


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I'm 0 for 1


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

9, 9, 8


Equal results with fresh chilled.... only one miss on fresh chilled with one of my males.... but bitch had missed before.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Surgical = 8 pups.. The correct color of course...


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

All my litters in the past 4-5 years have been frozen surgical AIs with a 100% conception rate and 7-10 pups. My vet maintains a conception rate of around 94% for his whole practice and, needless to say, I recommend him highly.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2009)

I think it's the only way I would ever breed... We have only missed one out of 8 or 9 (brain fried). One litter of 2. One litter with 10, but only 3 survived. The rest were all 9-11. 

-K


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## Jonathan McClendon (Oct 23, 2009)

0-1 Does leave a sour taste in your mouth. Would try again for sure.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

DEDEYE said:


> Surgical = 8 pups.. The correct color of course...


 yellow?


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Fisher's stats for siring surgical implant litters:
#1 frozen 8 pups
#2 live AI (both dogs present) 7 pups
#3 frozen 0 pups
#4 live 5 pups
#5 live 5 pups
#6 live 5 pups
#7 live 9 pups

progesterone testing and having a good vet is the key


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

$$$$ invested with minimal results - progestrone testing used and highly recommend vets who are achieving litters for other breeders. 
#1 - 6 pups
#2 - 0 pups
#3 - 2 pups
#4 - 0 pups
#5 - 12 pups (tran scervical - Thank you Dr. Maria in Stillwater)
#6 - 3 pups
#7 - 0 pups (1 pup confirmed at ultrasound 4 weeks ago but reabsorbed).

Given the trans cervical was the only successful breeding in over 10 years, and most costly, given the expenses involved with small litters or no pups produced, I will try transervical again if I can't get a natural done.

Oh, and mixed in all those above, vets performed 3 side-by-side AIs with careful progestrone testing and no pups.

Could be driving a Lexus...or taking my trip to Italy.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

someone explain to me the difference between transervical and surgical........

Juli


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Transcervical, or TCI, is done without surgery. In fact, the two the vet performed on Puffin didn't even require sedation. The TCI is done with a probe that's inserted in the bitch's vagina up to her cervix. It has a tiny camera on it so the vet (and the owner!) can see what he's doing on a computer screen. The straws are thawed and examined for motility and then inserted into the cervix with the probe. It is a much less invasive procedure for the bitch.

My vet also allowed me in the room for the surgical he performed. For a surgical AI, the vet uses a general anesthetic for the dog and hooks it to the respirator. She's strapped upside down on the operating table and the vet makes an incision just like for a spay, and pulls the uterus out of the dog and inserts the thawed semen right into the uterus with a needle. He then replaces it and stitches her back up. I have to admit I had no idea what was involved when my vet invited me in to watch. I was already nervous because Puffin takes awhile to anesthetize--she cried and cried and pawed the ground like she was in death throes before she was knocked out. Then when he opened her up and plopped her uterus on the blue cloth covering her, I nearly fainted :shock: But I'm glad I watched so I know what they do. 

Not a lot of vets are experienced with doing TCIs, but mine has a very good success rate. Having watched both, I'd prefer the TCI procedure for AIs! Edited to add: The TCI, which does not require general anasthetic or even sedation or surgery, cost $150 compared to $1200 for a surgical. It's much more common in Europe, where my vet studied it. It also requires slightly different timing than surgical, because the semen still has to travel up the uterus to the eggs. I don't know if there are any studies comparing success rates of the two procedures since not a lot of vets are experienced with TCIs.


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## Mark Chase (Jul 24, 2003)

1 breeding using frozed semen had 6 puppies. Was told that since it was my females' first breeding that I might not get any puppies. Vet said that the success rate was lower for first time breedings using Surgical AI with frozen semen. He said second and all subsequent breedings had a better success rate.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

My bitch's first breeding was a TCI, and my vet said the same thing about surgical; that it has a lower success rate on maiden bitches. She had 4 pups, but we considered that successful since the original breeding was to be live cover. Because it was her first breeding we didn't know that she's one that ovulates very late in her cycle--all her breedings were done on days 19 - 22. Because I'd planned to drive her up to the sire during the middle week, I did the progesterone tests so we knew she wasn't ready. 

Due to the sire's competition schedule, he was collected on about day 14 for a fresh chilled AI. But her progesterone tests, which we were doing every other day and then daily, were still very low til day 20; and we got the results back too late to do the AI the next day (by then the sire's vet had frozen the semen) since it was being shipped. So she had the TCI on day 22 but still had 4 pups. What I saved on the surgical I think I paid for with all those progesterone tests! And after that, we knew to take a baseline early in her cycle then wait til day 15 or 16.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Julie R. said:


> Not a lot of vets are experienced with doing TCIs, but mine has a very good success rate. Having watched both, I'd prefer the TCI procedure for AIs! Edited to add: The TCI, which does not require general anasthetic or even sedation or surgery, cost $150 compared to $1200 for a surgical. It's much more common in Europe, where my vet studied it. It also requires slightly different timing than surgical, because the semen still has to travel up the uterus to the eggs. I don't know if there are any studies comparing success rates of the two procedures since not a lot of vets are experienced with TCIs.


Julie -- $1200 for a surgical?????????????? That is about FOUR times the price for what the vets I have used are charging.
I did one collect & inseminate live semen w/ surgical implant in Columbus OH, cost out the door was $275.
Two done near Tallahassee FL for less than $200.
Two done in Lakeland FL for around $300.

Surgical implant is the gold standard for AI. 

Have done three breedings with TC, one live and two fresh chilled, NONE took. Now I'm not blaming the method, there were other factors there, but for all my time and effort I suggest surgical.


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Results from the frozen TCI breeding just whelped 11/30. Sire has been deceased for about 5 years and collection was done about 8 years ago. We did two inseminations about 30 hours part. Cost for the inseminations was about $500, and another $500 for all the testing and pre breeding workups. 









T. Mac


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I think trans cervical is much more dependent on the individual vet's experience and skill. I've had success with both, but my vet has been performing transcervicals for over 20 years on a routine basis. It helps that he also does progesterones with same day results 7 days/week.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I had TCI's done on fresh chilled semen by both very experienced vets on bitches that had previous big litters with the same stud and nada on one and 1 on the other. Multiple Progesterones done. Sometimes it just doesn't happen and no one knows why. You also have to take into account reabsorption for no reason. The frozen I did that had one had 2 reabsorption sites. I still prefer natural breedings.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

T Mac - A beautiful litter of pups! I bet you are very excited...  
Thanks to everyone for your input...this has been a great thread.

Juli


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## DianeL (May 4, 2004)

8 & 9 pups
Two surgical AIs, two different studs, first litter for both bitches and both were over six years of age.

Diane


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

maybe this is a dumb question - but how can there be a litter of "none"?

my point is, if there are no pups, how can you place the blame on the surgical AI with any certainty? couldn't there be other factors with the bitch that could cause a no-take?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

no one is laying the blame specifically on the AI, or the semen quality, or the female...

The fact remains that a breeding was attempted and the outcome was zero pups.



Juli


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Nothing to add to the poll, just hope that I do have some feedback to add in another month or so?


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

To add a bit of information to the thread--I took the last 50 breedings FS/SI and averaged number of pups produced and did the same for natural cover breedings,

Frozen semen/ surgical Implant averaged 8.6 pups produced

Natural cover (regular breeding) averaged 8.8 pups produced

I never figured out what to do with that 0.2 of a pup, maybe Bubba knows!!! Bill
________
CALIFORNIA MEDICAL MARIJUANA


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## Norene S. (Feb 23, 2003)

Interesting thread....thanks for asking the question Juli....;-)
Like Misty Marsh I hope to have some feedback to add in a couple of months!!!

Norene S.
Nordom Chesapeakes


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## Ken Parrott (Feb 5, 2005)

I am glad some of you have had good success. Not so much luck here. 3, 3, and 0 and two of those three pup litters was from a bitch that had two very large litter when she was bred naturally. On top of that, I used one of the top respected vets in the country to do the procedures.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Bill Watson said:


> To add a bit of information to the thread--I took the last 50 breedings FS/SI and averaged number of pups produced and did the same for natural cover breedings,
> 
> Frozen semen/ surgical Implant averaged 8.6 pups produced
> 
> ...


Dunno- even a WHOLE Chocolate ain't worth much them fractions prolly have to be sold off as hood ornaments.

Might be able to sell them to /paul- short as he is they might look OK?

Just trying to help out in the worst way regards

Bubba


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## windigo (Sep 25, 2008)

You need to differentiate between frozen semen and fresh collections. I have had very good luck with fresh collection AIs when the vets were very experienced. Litter sizes were 8, 9 and 10. Did one with frozen and got one of those $5,000 singletons--frozen semen, surgical implant, cesaerean section. And it was a male, to boot! Not that the AI had anything to do with that...


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I did request in the first post that people who'd used surgical AI's vote...because, yes, fresh chilled, TCI are different and can have different outcomes.. I think a majority of people that voted did follow that guideline.

Juli


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Thought this might help some who use frozen semen or are considering this procedure. Our Repo Vet gave us this and it is on our web site too.

PROPER TIMING OF ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION IN THE BITCH
by
Gary M. Greene, DVM


The use of artificial insemination in dogs has experienced a tremendous increase in popularity over the last several years due to both its increased success rate and the flexibility it allows the dog breeder. A stud dog can be utilized successfully and easily from thousands of miles away, allowing the breeder to choose the best genetics for his or her bitch without the risks, expense, and other difficulties associated with transportation of the bitch. A previous or current champion's genetics can be preserved indefinitely through the use of frozen semen. There are several factors that determine the success or failure of artificial insemination. The most important of these factors is proper timing of the insemination.

Old rules of thumb such as breeding between days 10 and 14 will not work in every case because of the variable length of standing heat (receptivity) and because the optimum time to breed may occur any time during, before or after standing heat.

Vaginal smears have been used to help diagnose the proper time to breed. They are most helpful as a rough guide to the stage of proestrus when using natural service. But they are not accurate enough to use alone when utilizing fresh chilled or frozen-thawed semen.

A more exact method to properly time insemination is to measure serum progesterone levels. During estrus, progesterone levels are as low as 0-2 ng/ml early on, rise to levels 2.0-2.9 ng/ml during the LH surge (Luteinizing Hormones, initiates ovulation), continue to rise to 4-8 ng/ml on the day of ovulation (2 days after the LH surge), and may peak at levels as high as 25 ng/ml post ovulation. 

After ovulation has occurred, the oocytes (eggs) must go through a maturation process before they are capable of being fertilized. This process takes approximately 2 days. When fully mature, oocytes can then be fertilized for about 48 hours. Thus the optimum time to breed when using fresh chilled semen is 2 days after ovulation (4 days after the LH surge) and 3 - 4 days after ovulation (5 - 6 days after the LH surge) when using frozen-thawed semen due to its shorter life span.

If the previous breeding history is unknown, begin progesterone testing 4 - 6 days after the onset of proestrus. If the levels of progesterone are baseline, then the dog should be retested every 3 - 4 days until a level of progesterone is detected that is consistent with the onset of the LH peak.

Call the stud owner as soon as the bitch is showing signs of heat. Have your veterinarian contact the stud owner's veterinarian after the first progesterone test is performed to begin coordination of the semen shipment. Arrangements must be made by 10:00am CST so that semen can be collected, processed and delivered by 10:30am the next day.

It has often been said that "Timing is everything" and this is certainly true when using artificial insemination of the bitch. By planning ahead and using these guidelines, one can maximize the probability of pregnancy.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

bringing this back up... thought there might be a few more people with results...

Juli


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

I've done 4. Two with maiden bitches.
1st: no pups, but semen was of horrible quality. That one taught me to do more homework.
2nd: 8 pups
3rd: 7 pups
4th: 6 pups

I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
Marcy


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

8 - 4 - 8

The 4 pups I believe was because there was a 3 day weekend and we were a day late in doing the AI.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I'll let you know in 62 days!!!


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Raina, It has been my observation that gestation using Frozen semen/surgical implant is closer to 59 days. The little sperm don't have that long swim, they just pick an egg and penitrate! I don't have anything planned right around Valentines except being with sweet Rusty Zipper. (Cleo hates that name, I named her because she is brown and has alot of zip, but Cleo has other visions>) I just hope she has a bunch-equally devided. Bill
________
HotThing live


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

AI on a maiden bitch 6 years old. Got eight puppies.


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## MoJo (Mar 24, 2004)

first one was 1 pup.

I will let you know about the second after the x-ray tomorrow. Ultrasound showed 2.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

MoJo said:


> first one was 1 pup.
> 
> I will let you know about the second after the x-ray tomorrow. Ultrasound showed 2.


 
xray tomorrow for the breeding I am hoping for a pup from as well. 

Juli


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## SFLabs (Oct 21, 2007)

We've had very good success with SAI except for one, which only produced 1 pup and that one pup was considered a litter.... ouch....... :-x. 

Rage's / EWD Jan. 31st
First Litter/naturally = 11
Second Litter SAI = 11
Third Litter SAI = 1
Fourth and Last SAI= Ultrasound says 9

Tyra's / EWD Feb. 2nd
First Litter SAI = 9
Second Litter SAI = 11
Third Litter SAI = Xray says at least 8

Dr. Kent Law in Abilene, KS has done all our SAI.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

holy mama!!!... those girls got some saggin' bellies now... great picture! 

Juli


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

Have tried two and no puppies either time even tho the progesterone test said it was time.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Dr. Kent Law in Abilene, KS has done all our SAI.


My understanding is Dr Law has an extremely high success rate like around 95%. I think he has done a bunch of grey hounds. He did a surgical on some semen I sent out on a maiden bitch and she had 7 I think.


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