# Which is more difficult, AKC SH title vs. Derby points?



## DT Tran (Jan 12, 2005)

SH level seems to be the level when all the elements are introduced into testing: multiple marks, honoring, blinds (ergo handling), and gimmicks like walk-up, bulldog, etc.

vs.

Derby seems to have significantly more difficult marks than SH, but the dog does not need to honor or run blinds.

i'd like to try both. which is more difficult :?: 
plus for derby, you can heel dog to the line on a lead, right?

perhaps a fairer comparison is SH vs Q?


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Oh geez....I can just imagine some of the comments you are going to get with these 'comparisons' :roll: 

SH vs. Derby points is like comparing apples to oranges.

SH vs. Q is like comparing grapes to watermelons. If you had said MH to Q, it would be like comparing apples to oranges 

Vicky


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## Steve Bean (May 3, 2004)

:shock: DT..you really do need to get out more. Go see some Derbys. Not only will the distance be greater, but there are generally more factors in each mark which will make each mark technically more difficult than the SH. I am considerably more happy by coming back to the 2nd and 3rd series, let alone getting a ribbon than I am completing a SH test.


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Oh If you had said MH to Q, it would be like comparing apples to oranges
> Vicky


Vicky,
Did you say that right?

I think MH to Q is about as close to apples to apples as you can get when comparing HT to FT.

What Steve said.

WAH - not my real initials - I voted derby


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

You forgot a third choice....


C) The one you are running.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

WAH said:


> I think MH to Q is about as close to apples to apples as you can get when comparing HT to FT.


Ditto.


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

Having ran both, I can say that there is no comparison. The marks in a derby are way beyond what is seen in a senior test. Senior tests are typically spread out, while derbies can be tight. Generally derby dogs have been running blinds of some type, and most could get through senior level blinds. Coming to line on lead is not that big of a deal.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Personally, I think it is harder to win a Derby than a Qualifying.

Especially, if you start out training with AA stakes in mind and view the Derby as just a stepping stone to Qualifying then on to AA stakes. A lot depends on the entry size of the Derby or Qualifying, as to their level of difficulty. But, a good dog that is well into advanced training should be able to win a Q well before 2.5 years of age.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

DT,

In a SH test the water mark may be a 100 yards with a retired gun
and you can handle and still get called back. As in all HT you pass or 
fail if you get the birds and perform to the judge's likeing.

In a Derby it will be 300 yards and if you handle you are DQ.
Your performance is judged as it relates to other dogs. 

The answer is obvious.

Bert


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

I entered the dog in the avatar in a Sr when he was 14 months old. He smoked it. Just for grins, I entered him in the Masters the same weekend. He didn't get his pass, but he had an excellent first series. He blew past the 3rd mark in the second series and ended up in the next parish....

We ran a derby a few weeks later. I picked him up in the first series. I thought I had won the open when he jammed a month or so later. He RJ'd the next two and we haven't run any since then. 

What's tougher? Derby, no doubt. But don't let that stop you. Go for it. They are a lot of fun and you'll meet some good folks and good dogs. But be warned, this is not an obsession, it's an addiction.

Take care,
Frank


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

The simple fact that every dog that does the work gets a ribbon in a h/t answers that question.

tom


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## Bullets Dad (Jul 8, 2003)

DT Tran said:


> perhaps a fairer comparison is SH vs Q?


 _*NOT*_

" Derby Points " dictate a placement in a Derby. 
A placement in a Derby usually requires a pretty stellar performance. Usually FT tests are set up with some really high quality Bird Placement designed to see "who can REALLY MARK and who CAN'T"
The difference is .... in order to get that PLACEMENT, the dog is typically IMO a MARKING MACHINE ! The SH title is achieved from passing several tests on many different aspects of training ... however in SH the dog CAN BE HANDLED on marks ( usually in the AOF / not TO the AOF ) and still achieve the SH. 
There is no handling in a Derby ... when you touch that whistle to help the dog, you have just made the decision that you are done.... your $50 bucks is gone .. and now you might as well try and get something positive for the experience :lol: 
The good Derby dogs that I consider are consistent are truly remarkable to watch run. They watch that bird get thrown , MARK THE BLADE OF GRASS it landed on and go to that blade of grass.... ie not too much huntin' just MARKING ! They go to that bird with conviction and confidence ...They are that good ! 
These dogs are truly a joy to watch work as they are so very gifted ... and indeed a Marking Dog like that is Gifted and Rare, and AWESOME to watch and dream about owning :wink: . Just finishing a Derby with that kinda marking talent around is quite the accomplishment. 
I stated my opinion not from a "this type of Retriever event is better than the that type of event" point of view, but more as a matter of fact difference. 
Summary ... FT and HT's are DIFFERENT GAMES


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

WAH said:


> Vicky Trainor said:
> 
> 
> > Oh If you had said MH to Q, it would be like comparing apples to oranges
> ...


You're right.....I didn't say that quite right 

MH to Q is like comparing Granny Smith apples to Golden Delicious apples.....they taste different, but they're still delicious!!!!!

Vicky


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Nice save Vicky!!!!! :lol: 

Angie


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## DT Tran (Jan 12, 2005)

thanks for the responses


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I have a suggestion for those that voted that a SH is more difficult than earning Derby points. Go watch a Derby at a Licensed Trial. Then if you can get access to the grounds, duplicate the tests and run them. That will give you a good understanding of what's required to do Derby work. Especially that 4th series. In the big picture of retrievers, if a dog can JAM a Derby they are a GOOD dog. HPW


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## Bob Agnor (Nov 25, 2004)

WOW seiors are alot of fun but the adrenaline rush watching your derby dog smack a 300 plus yard water mark in the last series is incredible.


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## Steve Bean (May 3, 2004)

Just wondering, to those that answered the SH title, how many have seen a Derby, ran a Derby, or smacked a Derby but struggled with a SH title :?:


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Hunt tests and Field trials are 2 similiar but different games. In most sports, the average novice doesn't jump right into the most difficult level of that sport. HTs are a place for the novice to gain experience at each level-junior, senior, and master in a non competitive forum. For those that are really hooked, then often FT stakes should be the next step....(not more difficult and tricky HT stakes - which seems to be the current trend)! 

If you train only for HT's, I don't think that you have a chance in Derby or Quals...been there and done that with a really nice dog...trained too short and with less precision.

However, our young dog (18 mos old) that has been trained only on FT marks and blinds, smacked a Senior test as the test dog with a fairly inexperienced handler that she had never seen before that day. Could she hold up under all of the excitement in masters? Who knows...don't want to find out!

Most of the HT dogs have the same famous FT dogs in their pedigrees . I think that there are HT dogs that could have done well in FT's with expereinced trainers and handlers. There are also some FT dogs that could never do HT's...too much excitment and "in your face" marks. 

If you train for HTs, enjoy them and enjoy your successes. If it is field trials that you choose, do the same. Don't compare the two games.

I voted Derby...hands down!


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

I guess a lot depends on why you are asking.

If you are trying to decide between the two games, then train for FT, with FT distances and FT concepts. Train as if an FC was your goal. that means you will be working on blinds and building skill sets for various marking concepts right out of basics. You will continue building those skills in small increments.

Somewhere around 16-20 months of age, you will start assessing your dog's ability to make it through a Derby or Qual, and whether the "right stuff" is there, marking-wise, for the All-Age. 

Then , if you decide the "stuff" is there, I'd say go for it! The nice thing about HT is they are almost like candy for the seasoned FT dog. Lots of excitement, and a lot more relaxed (less pucker factor for you, which the dog can read). They can be great for the older dog that is retired from FT but still wants to get out there.

Or, they can be a good stepping-stone for the young dog that lacks maturity to jump into FT right away. Because of the non-competitive nature, you have a better chance of getting called back to the next series, even if your dog didn't shine that day. More line time equals more experience for both of you.

Lisa


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I've run both and its a toss up. 

Going from Junior to Senior is a BIG leap - off leash, blinds, honor, walk-up. If you are starting from scratch and skip Junior then its not that bad.

Having my first Derby dog and being able to complete a few, I'd have to say Derbies are tougher or atleast getting the points to make the list is tougher. Mostly because even though you may complete all four series in a Derby it doe not mean you'll get a placement (ie. points).

I would have to say the "skill set" of a Senior dog and Derby dog are in the same general range - have to do doubles, need to be steady, running blinds and although the Derby doesn't have an honor, walkup or blind, the Derby dogs I have seen could easily do those tasks.

I tend to agree HTs compared to FTs are apples and oranges.

If you are looking at what level to train to - train toward FTs even if you never plan to run one. Its easier to shorten a dog up than it is to stretch them out! 

Good luck in whatever you do - just enjoy yourself and your dog!!

Lainee, Flash and Bullet


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## DT Tran (Jan 12, 2005)

suelabs, LVL, and FOM,
thanks for your time and thoughtful responses, i found your posts very helpful and encouraging.  

this poll isn't meant to stir the pot, i'm genuinely interested in the difference.
donald


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## tjw_128 (Jul 26, 2003)

Donald,

Take that puppy to the Derby!  

Yes, it's harder. It's true that the derby dogs don't have to do blinds but I've rarely seen a good derby dog that couldn't already handle anyway. I'm thinking any dog that's good at the derby should be able to smoke the senior. 

And of course, I have absolutely no ulterior motive for telling you to go to the derby!

Tara


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