# Poll: Seasoned HRC Test



## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

If you were to arrive at an HRC SEASONED handlers' meeting and were told the morning/afternoon hunt would be a goose hunt, AND you were told you had to lay/sit/kneel in an OPEN layout field blind with your dog outside the blind at your side, how would you react? I'm anxious to see the responses to this one!

Note: Assume it's an early spring test.

Rob


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

8)


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*test*

I think it would make a cool FINISHED test, should the I want to run my dog on a test where I, too, feel like I'm hunting.

The aspect of the testing a dog's ability in a goose hunt is what the game is for. The aspect of convincing the dog we are actually goose hunting is not so good of an ideal when it comes to items such as ground blinds, pits, etc.

its important to keep a hunt test very similar to actual hunting for whatever location you've setup, but at the same time, I wouldn't expect all my fellow participants to have the physical ability to kneel/lay/sit in a ground blind. When it comes to running my dog, I'm fortunate enough to have young age and maneuverability on my side, but I wouldn't want to go along with something that would cause problems for a fellow handler attempting to run his/her dog, when its an easily avoidable item.

for what its worth, I'd keep the layout present, but with a bucket like usual. let the handlers sit/stand, so as to offer unrestricted ability to handle his/her dog.


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## blackdi (Mar 12, 2003)

DUKDAWGN Well put. I agree


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Well, let me tell you this -- I ran a AKC Senior Test which is a loose equivalent of an HRC Seasoned.

We had to lay down in the layout blind, call our duck calls, and wave a goose flag over our dog's head. We were not allowed to talk to our dogs while the birds were in the air, and were not allowed to stand up until the judges called for the dog (both are normal rules). If we tried to stand up without sending the dog, and the dog took off because of our movement, it was considered a break.

After the dog made the retrieves we had to do a remote honor, half the way down the line to the flyer, we stood inside a blind, while the dog sat outside. We were not released until the working dog had ran by our dog in the process of retrieving the flyer.

When it was over, we all agreed it would have made a pretty decent Master test (loose equivalent to an HRC Finished).


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
VOLCANO VAPORIZER FOR SALE


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## Scott Galloway (Jan 7, 2004)

PURPOSE AND PHILOSOPHY 

This hunt test is for Seasoned Hunting Retrievers and Handlers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area. Judges will look for style and natural ability and evidence that the Seasoned Hunting Retriever exhibits a reasonable degree of control. These hunting tests have longer retrieves on both water and land than Started Tests. The Seasoned Hunting Retriever must be steady on line and retrieve to hand. The Seasoned Hunting Retriever in these hunting tests usually has a couple of seasons of hunting experience, and more training. - HRC Rule Book

I think the above answers the question. If hunting out of a layout blind duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area then it is a good and fair test. If you set that up in seasoned here in SC I would say you are crazy but would enjoy the chalange. Layout blinds are not common down here. I would think in the mid west it would be fair.
Scott


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## DKR (May 9, 2003)

COOL!!!!!!!!!!

I think it would be great since I goose hunt and have a finisher blind. If I didn't I might not be so happy when I pulled in and saw a camo coffin on the ground.

Went to an AKC HT this weekend and in master they setup a remote and a lot of people were suprised and several dogs went out for breaking since they had not trained for it.

Both of these situations are a normal part of hunting. My "seasoned" dog who would of had a couple of years of experiance would of seen both of these situations.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm wit' them what are for keeping the "hunt" in the Hunting Retriever Club - or inserting hunt where it's been missing. And I'd think working from beside a layout blind should be among the least of a Seasoned dog's challenges. 

Dog that has to work from beside a bucket or the Mickey Mouse "blinds" seen in most hunt tests is anything but "seasoned" from a hunting perspective.


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## Patti Benton (Jan 6, 2003)

My first thought was Cool - that would be fun. Then I thought about what the handlers would say - and it probably wouldn't be nice. But the Seasoned test is suppose to be like the area of the country that you are currently in. 

I'll be judging Seasoned in May out in Lubbock at the new Texas Panhandle HRC and boy does that give me some ideas. 

DKR - got any goose shells - :wink:


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## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks for the replies. I didn't say this initially because I didn't want to sway opinions on the issue. BUT, here is what Rob New thinks:

These are SEASONED dogs. Some of them probably under a year old. We don't train with a layout blind. Remember the old saying: "Train like you test?" Well, I have NEVER heard of anyone training out of layout blind. 

My thinking is that handlers would think this test was WAY OVER THE TOP for a Seasoned dog. And I, for one, agree with them. Seasoned tests are for marking and memory, control and obedience. You can test those traits without sitting in a layout blind in a field. Just my opinion.


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## DKR (May 9, 2003)

ladylabtrainer said:


> I'll be judging Seasoned in May out in Lubbock at the new Texas Panhandle HRC and boy does that give me some ideas.
> 
> DKR - got any goose shells - :wink:


Patti,

Shells, siloettes (sp), full body, rags, assorted blinds

Your wish is my command. :wink: 

Don


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

*"This hunt test is for Seasoned Hunting Retrievers and Handlers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area."*

Guess if most of the hunting in your area is off buckets...

Training as you test best serves the hunter and his dog when they also test as they hunt. Would really hate to see the HRC drift away from that ideal and become just another trainers' game.


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

I have run senior test with layout blinds (a goose chair) and have seen mojo-duks as well. We had success at both tests. I believe that at the intermediate (Senior, Seasoned, etc.) level props should be kept to a minimum. Let the increase in trained abilities above Started or Junior be the cornerstone of testing, not the props.

Joe Miano


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I have run seasoned tests out of a goose chair and wouldn't have a problem with a layout blind.

I think the important part of your original post is that the blind is OPEN, thus no sudden shock ot the layout flying open to scare the bejesus out of the dog.

Props are good as long as they don't take away from the "testing" aspect.

Cool props do not make a good test on its own.

Ken


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## 2blackdogs (Apr 28, 2003)

I think it would be a cool test!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a dog that is ready to run seasoned it shouldn't be a big problem. While judging seasoned you always have a few dogs that have just gotton their started title a week or two ago and the handler thinks it's time to move on up and the dog is just not ready in many cases. Those dogs could sure have a problem, but I'm not going to lower the seasoned standerd of my test to acommodate a dog and handler that are not ready. I do not set up seasoned tests that are unrealistic by any means, but if your retriever passes my seasoned test you have a seasoned retriever. That is what we are testing for. In a test like we are talking about I WOULD give more leway to the seasoned team in reguard to line maners and controlled breaks and I would make the marks long enough, no in your face marks, so as to not incourage breaking.

2blackdogs


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

2blackdogs said:


> I think it would be a cool test!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a dog that is ready to run seasoned it shouldn't be a big problem. While judging seasoned you always have a few dogs that have just gotton their started title a week or two ago and the handler thinks it's time to move on up and the dog is just not ready in many cases. Those dogs could sure have a problem, but I'm not going to lower the seasoned standerd of my test to acommodate a dog and handler that are not ready. I do not set up seasoned tests that are unrealistic by any means, but if your retriever passes my seasoned test you have a seasoned retriever. That is what we are testing for. In a test like we are talking about I WOULD give more leway to the seasoned team in reguard to line maners and controlled breaks and I would make the marks long enough, no in your face marks, so as to not incourage breaking.
> 
> 2blackdogs



I couldn't possibly come up with anything that would answer this question any better. 

The only area I'd give consideration to an "early spring test" would be for the possible lack of water to train in, and would factor that into my setup.

UB


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## BamaK9 (Sep 29, 2004)

My second seasoned test I ever ran, as well as second hunt test ever ran was in South Carolina and the Seasones Land Test was run as a Snow Goose setup. I watched some woman with a Curly Coat poop egg rolls when she got out of the truck and saw 500 white rags dancin in the breeze, we also ran out of layouts. I was just like, "ok, my fine pooch from the Paper, let's see whatcha think about all this" :lol: It was interesting to say the least, but I think it was a fine setup, these are "Hunt Tests" designed to replicate actual hunting conditions so I don't see why not.

Whats the difference between a layout blind setup and getting to the water and its a Timber hunt and you have to wade out into the water and shoot off a treestand (other than the quasi remote sit in the layout)? Its actual hunting conditions, and it never fails, there are always folks who dont own waders who bitch about having to wade into the timber, and "we dont hunt this way" I always get a chuckle out of that.
:wink:


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Rob,

I strongly support you scenario. 

I think the handler on the bucket and dog right next to them has gotten out of hand. We are supposed to be testing hunting dogs. Dogs that can function in a hunting environment. Seasoned means to me, the dog has been seasoned and hunted. I think it is a shame some hunting dogs cannot function unless they are directly beside the handler. The purpose and philosophy of HRC is to test hunting dogs under true to life hunting situations. One can play devils advocate all they want about we need to test this and that and not trick the dog with hunting gimmicks etc. HRC should be true to life, within reason. It is not unreasonable to use actual duck/goose blinds for the seasoned retriever or finished retriever. To not is watering down the titles. 

We should be in a situation where when you tell someone you have a seasoned HRC dog, they welcome you to hunt in their duckblind or goosepit because an HRC dog is a hunting dog and not just a great test dog!

Rob, you will see at our test: decoys, duckblinds and other effects to clearly distinguish our test from any other testing organization. And not just because we shoot from the line.

Lastly, I believe there are provisions for handicapped or otherwise individuals that cannot physically meet the demands of the proposed scenario. Therefore, I don't think, the experience should be compromised because the possibility exists someone may show up that cannot bend or lie down flat on their back.

great question,

Rick


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## Scott Galloway (Jan 7, 2004)

BamaK9 - I would have a problem with a snow goose set-up in seasoned on SC. This past year on the local refuges they only reported 1 snow goose. I do not think that qualifies as local hunting conditions! I could see it in finished.
"This hunt test is for Seasoned Hunting Retrievers and Handlers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area." -HRC Rule book


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## BamaK9 (Sep 29, 2004)

Scott Galloway said:


> BamaK9 - I would have a problem with a snow goose set-up in seasoned on SC. This past year on the local refuges they only reported 1 snow goose. I do not think that qualifies as local hunting conditions! I could see it in finished.
> "This hunt test is for Seasoned Hunting Retrievers and Handlers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area." -HRC Rule book


Needless to say there were some wide eyes when everyone pulled up to the test, but surprisingly enough, they had about 80% of the dogs do well on the test. It was a bit much, a stretch to use that format in SC, but it ended up being a really fun test and there were no complaints, other than the normal increased Blood pressure. :wink:


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

nothing wrong with this set up for an HRC seasoned test, imho.

the age or experience of the dogs and handlers should have nothing to do with what the test looks like. of more importance are the quality of the marks- (visibility,distance, cover that they fall into and what obstacles are between the dog and the bird).

if you enter Seasoned you are saying "i have a sure 'nuff hunting dog, and if you set up a hunting scenario that is within the rulebook and guidelines, i think my dog and i are up to it."

tests like this are what is BEST about the HRC testing program. it'll be a sad day (for me) if they morph to what akc ht's have become.

i would prefer to see the AKC ht's change their name to accurately reflect what they have become, retrieving skill tests. there's nothing wrong with that. i run them and judge them....a lot. they just don't have much to do with hunting anymore......-paul


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

There are some, maybe many Seasoned dogs that can do this setup.
Many others cannot. Many Seasoned dogs are young and all kinds of things can go wrong. Things you have not trained for. And you may have difficulity setting up to train for.

I think this type of test is best reserved for Finished or Master dogs.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I've been running HT for 3 years with an excellent hunting dog who is also a pretty good test dog. 
I think the bar ought to be raised with this type of testing as long as the marks and blinds are within the rules. 
Bring it on.


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## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

Rick F:

VERY good points and they are well taken. I'm looking forward to your test. 

Rob


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

If the dogs are young and inexperienced that would mean they may not meet the standard and are thereby not prepared for the level they wish to test. This is a standard for a hunting dog and what a hunting dog is/should be capable of doing or under circumstances that dog may face afield. 

We are testing for desired qualities of a hunting retriever not a retriever that poseess the ability to mark from an exclusive position. I think Paul hit the nail on the head with his above assesment. One could say why not use Dokkens if the purpose is to test marking. We don't need real birds to do that. But we do use real birds as part of the equation because we are attempting to test a dog capable of service in a hunting situation.

Here is a case in point. There are six dogs from our club going on a group hunting trip to Canada this October to service 12 - 15 guns. As of right now there is only one finished dog and based on your post the only dog that would be able to hunt safely with us. The remaining are solid seasoned level dogs. All of these dogs are or will be capable of hunting from a remote position, preferably behind the hunter(s). should they not be able to meet this standard, they would not be welcome with the majority of the party including those that don't have dogs. Should they obtain a HR title by then and only be able to function for the gun when the handler is sitting on a bucket and the dog sitting nicely beside him, well, they'd be welcome on a dove hunt here in Pa where concealment and steadiness are not an issue but certainly not on our hunt where thousands of dollars are being spent per day. 

The beauty of HRC is on the first page of the rule book where its greets the potential contestant with the following phrase "To the Bird and Duck Hunter". This casually sets the tone for the purpose and philosophy of the HRC. 

It is also interesting to note that duckblinds, boats, calls, decoys etc. are appropriate for the started level of testing in HRC, according to the rulebook. This, I believe, is an asset to the program. If a judge wishes to take unprepared handler considerations as a primary factor when setting up their test and omit key ingredients to a hunting situation, well, as I said earlier, that is unfair to the program and devalues the title.

JMO,



Rick Fanella


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*&&&*

What functionality does a person laying down in a layout blind serve in testing the dogs ability mark, remember, and retrieve birds? none really. it would seem to hinder the dogs ability to swing with the gun. this would call for tighter marks. Seasoned marks and blinds shouldn't be comingled. so, if you are going to take away the ability for a handler to swing his/her dogs head around for a mark, why suggest someone to lay down because its how some folks hunt? just test the dog's, not the handlers.


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Why use decoys?

Why fire a shotgun from the line?

Why should the retriever be dependant on a swinging gun?

Why wear hunting clothes?

Why even attempt to represent a typical day afield?

Why use real birds?

Why run HRC?

Because we are trying to find a dog that meets a standard set forth by hunters for hunters.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i think the functionality lies within the fact that a dog that goes goose hunting needs to have the attributes this test will present. HRC tests are not so much about measuring marking or any other single trait or skill as they are about measuring the dogs suitability as a hunting companion. the whole package, all at once.-paul


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

And why on earth couldn't a seasoned hunting retriever stationed beside a layout mark off his handler's gun? (Especially with that big ol' "shuck-shuck" between shots.) A seasoned hunting retriever is almost certainly required to mark from much more awkward circumstance than that while hunting.

Only thing about the handler that's being tested in the layout scenario is his faith in his "Seasoned" hunting retriever.


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## clipper (May 11, 2003)

I am for anything that gives an advantage to the dogs that ACTUALLY hunt and this test certainly does that.. I like it.. and I like layout boats too..


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

I remember last Spring ona Sunday We ran out of a boat some (including some pos) really freaked out about it, I ran the test dog which titled the day before, she done a fine job, I also ran a dog who titled that day as well. 

we bought laydown blinds to Canada goose hunt this year, our dogs never seen them until we took them hunting, we had no problems

ya know if you go to Wally World about 2 weeks after duck season you can get the AMeristep Field house Laydown for about 25 bucks :twisted: 

I paid full price for mine

good training device and another hunting device :lol:


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*&&&*

Rick and Rick,

I'm all for the seasoned dog being able to handle a goose hunt. my seasoned dog will handle a goose hunt. What I feel is loose about the proposal is to mandate that handlers must lay or sit on the ground in order to run the test. As a judge, the HRC Judges and Handlers Seminar encourages one to setup a test that is meant to exhibit what the dog can do, not what the handler can do. In this situation, we are testing the dogs ability sit beside a layout blind. the blind is still there when you provide a means for all to step up to the line.

I'm sure everyone knows of the trip to Arkansas, and about the hunt with Omar. I've run with Omar, run under Omar, and Omar has run under me. He set me a bucket on the ground, so I'll do the same for him.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

What do you do with the handler who thru physical limitations can not and therefore does not hunt this way? Do you hold different entries to different standards? Does an entry have to be able hunt in any way the judges/committee dream up?
I admit having no HRC experience and my limited AKC HT experience has been that judges that spend time designing these types of theatrics are usually making up their for poor bird placement.

Tim


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Ok, 

Put your bucket out, I just prefer them to be in a duckblind. White and all :wink: 

Rick


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

hopefully, when a pair of HRC judges set their test, they are looking at how they would set up to HUNT (emphasis mine) in the area they have chosen to conduct their test. once they know where the birds will be shot at from and the most likely route the birds will "fly" they will set the decoys as they would if they wanted to get some shooting done. from that they will figure out where the birds would fall. birds generally flare and turn to fly with the wind once the shooting starts. that's the quickest way for them to get out of range. the components are now in place. you can now judge what happens and determine if you are watching a seasoned hunting retriever. that's the way i want to be tested at an HRC event.

the other games do it different, and when i step to the line in those venues, i expect it to be different. not better-different.-paul


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Tim,

Can you find the following statement in any other rulebook or judging guideline book?


"True-to-life hunting situations are the key ingredient to setting up and judging any HRC / U.K.C LICENSED event. It is of paramount importance that Judges continually ask themselves, ?Would I hunt like this?? "

As far as individuals uncapable of physically meeting the demands of the test. I believe if an individual has physical limitations they need to be concerned about they should call the Hunt Marshall beforehand so provisions can be made. I believe this is/was discussed at the judges seminar. Just because one person may need a variation of the test does not necessarily change the standard being tested.

What if I had a finished dog and wanted to run finished but physical limitations caused me to be unable to shoulder a shotgun. The rules say the handler must shoulder the shotgun. What IF I have 2 arms but only one with a hand and I usually hunt with an automatic, not a pumpgun that the club provides? Although UKC/HRC allows for individuals to bring their own shotguns, a popper load will not cycle an auto. I'm S.O.L. Should HRC stop requiring the use of a shotgun because of one person's physical limitations?

Isn't firing from the line an unnecessary distraction on the dogs marking ability? 

Where do you draw the line?

Tell me what function the requirement for a handler to wear hunting attire has on the dogs ability to mark a fallen bird?

Tell me why we need to use real birds to test a dogs marking ability? Wouldn't a DFT asses the same(BTW I am emphatically NOT in favor of not using real gamebirds)?


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## meleagris (May 20, 2003)

ladylabtrainer said:


> I'll be judging Seasoned in May out in Lubbock at the new Texas Panhandle HRC and boy does that give me some ideas.
> 
> DKR - got any goose shells - :wink:


ladylabtrainer:

We had a judge at one of our NAHRA tests do this out there. Goose decoys in the middle of sandsage prairie look a little out of place though.

:wink: 

John
________
DENTAL PROBLEMS ADVICE


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

i can see this in a finished test but this is a SEASOND test young dogs and young and new handlers to the game i dont like thats my opinion


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

what age group are seasoned tests set up to test? i always thought the various test levels were set up by ability, regardless of age......-paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

"Seasoned" - what does the name imply? If the majority of the dogs are under a year old, this stake needs a different name. "Puppy" comes to mind, but that's just an initial impression!

A Seasoned dog should certainly be able to sit next to an eliminator or goose chair and do the work. As was mentioned earlier, any pair of judges setting up such a test should make some allowances for teams who do show control.... (controlled breaks should be expected and not be the end of the team's contention for a pass in a Seasoned layout blind scenario.)

That said...I'm going to read between the lines. Rob has a preliminary test coming up. Rob's already documented some challenging stuff that his club has faced around the prelim/first licensed scenario for a new club on the same weekend. I'm thinking that if this is connected to his club's prelim, the tests would likely best be done in a fairly straightforward, non-controversial manner. To me, this feels a bit "gimmicky" for a prelim Seasoned test.

If my read on this is that a potential judging team is talking of doing this for the prelim, I may feel a bit of a red flag in my gut. Although I'm sure I've done it to some extent in the past, I've never been particularly fond of a judge laying out a test design for a test coming up, prior to his assessing the grounds to be used, the cover available, the lighting, wind and other conditions on the day of the event, etc. I'm not saying this is the case, but if Rob is trying to get his arms around a preliminary test judge proposing this, I can understand the hesitance or concern. 

I do feel that HRC tests tend to overdo it with the dog anchored to the handler's side marking each and every mark from directly under or beside the gun, while the handler does the "sit and spin" on a white bucket. In reality, there's much more that we do when we hunt. Similarly, there's much more that we could do to properly prepare our retrievers for real hunting conditions, while properly evaluating how well our retrievers are prepared for real hunting conditions.

Remote sits are something that I personally wish I saw more of in HRC. A dog sitting right beside a handler is far from a remote sit. There IS a difference between a handler being prone next to a dog in a layout blind, where he is lower than the dog, versus the handler in a "dominant" position directly next to and above/over the dog.

The seasoned level handler and dog who make their first trip to Saskatchewan will be very glad that they properly prepared for the dog understanding the non-slip scenario next to the boss, who's flat on his back.

In the right setting, I don't think a dog next to a layout blind is a bad thing for a Seasoned test. For a prelim, especially if a judge is saying this is what he wants to do, weeks before the test, I'm thinking something along the lines of "Danger Will Robinson."

Another thing to take into account, if a judge is talking about doing this in advance....what's his track record like? When he sets up tests like this from past experience, does he and his co-judge grant the level-appropriate leeway? How much experience does this judge have? (If I'm reading into this as Rob preparing for his prelim.)


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*&&&*

Rick,

No one said it had to be a white bucket. Doesn't even have to be a bucket at all, just some option other than having to go totally to the ground. make it a camo lawn chair if need be, but a lawn chair is less likely to present an impossibility than to take someone to the ground all together. 

If I were to mandate that all handlers must lay on the ground in a layout blind, I am sure to find someone who needs assistance getting back up, and I am sure to see that persons dog pop enroute to a mark because it heard something back at the line (i.e. 2 people trying to pull 1 back up on his/her feet), so now I have put not only myself, but also my co-judge, into a position to have to make a call against a dog that was easily enough avoidable if I would have just accomodated the handler a little and provided a seat. 

The other Rick,

Hunting attire bears no affect on marking, but it does on calling in birds and handling your dog at long distances. 

We use real game birds to test hunting style of retrieving with a soft mouth. 

Shotguns fired over a dogs head are part of marking the birds you shot while wearing hunting attire and calling in birds, so your dog can retrieve the birds and exhibit a soft mouth delivery.

lastly, how is a hunt marshal supposed to know in advanced what a judge will setup? anyone coming to judge a test with "something in mind" is there to fulfill a dreamed-up agenda, not to test dogs in that part of the outdoors.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Dukdawgn,

where in the HRC rulebook does it say a judge has to deduct for a pop or even several pops?

we both know- or should from the seminars, that we as judges have the authority to change things to allow handlers with disabilities to participate.

this thread really has me wondering.....-paul


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*My take on this for what its worth........*

 I would have to pass running this as described. I am still trying to figure out how to shoulder a gun for Finished since my heart surgery. A seasoned dog that has just finished running Started and so early in the HT season would be at a serious disadvantage in my opinion. I for one would not be able to get in a layout blind and be able to get out without help. Bird placement and terrain should be enough to set up a QUALITY tests without resorting to using things that some dogs may have never seen. In the last 3 years I have run HT's in KY, OH, IN, IL, MO and Arkansas. Each area of the country I have seen different setups that did not use anything that was like this. I have seen this in the TV retriever events but do not think there is a place for this in SEASONED. JMHO.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i think it was someone on this forum who said that they'd like to judge a hunt test where they just layed all the ribbons out before the first bird was thrown. anyone who was entered could take a ribbon. the ones who wanted their dogs tested could stay for the marks and blinds or upland test or trail as the case may be.

could they have been onto something?-paul


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

I highly agree with Atkinson on this one. 

gotta side question: Finished timber hunt, dog on tree stand and judges demand that the handler must be on left side of dog (dog on handlers right) opposite of what most hunters train. Is it legal for judges to make handler stand on a particular side of the dog?


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

paul young said:


> we both know- or should from the seminars, that we as judges have the authority to change things to allow handlers with disabilities to participate.


How does the rulebook define "disabled?" If not, who gets to determine who is disabled? Is an obese person "disabled?" S/he would have a problem in the scenario. Do you embarass him/her by making the exception for him/her, or by making him/her request special consideration? Just playing Devil's advocate. The problem with this objection is that it also works in Finished. And in Finished a dog should be expected to do the work. 

My opposition to the given test is that a Seasoned retriever should not be tested on anything "out of the norm." Granted, layouts are becoming more popular. But they are far from being normal gear one might expect to see on any given hunt. I expect Finished dogs to be introduced to every possibility. But not a Seasoned dog.

Another way of looking at it. I like to think a Seasoned test is set up with the judges having a good idea in advance that generally speaking these dogs entered should have been trained on whatever is going to be thrown at them because they are only "Seasoned." Finished is almost the opposite -- set up tests that the dogs may have not seen before or been trained for, because they are expected to be and should be "Finished."

You cannot be sure the Seasoned dog has seen a layout. You can be sure that a Finished dog should have.


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
Vaporizers review


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

kevin, please make me a list of what props are off limits for seasoned dogs. you see i actually do judge, and i don't want to upset anyone.

accomodating participants who have physical limitations is not addressed in the rulebook. but it is at the seminars. have you been to one lately? you said you were going to start running dogs in HRC again. i reccommend you attend one if you haven't done so in the recent past.-paul


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> A Seasoned dog should certainly be able to sit next to an eliminator or goose chair and do the work.


See, what you say is true, but I disagree with the logic. The problem is not whether a Seasoned dog should be able to do the work, the question is the prop itself. What percentage of Seasoned dogs can a judge expect to have been introduced to the prop?

It is like a boat. A judge can always tell which dogs have been introduced to running from inside a boat, and which ones have not. Should a Seasoned dog be able sit next to the handler inside a boat? Of course. But have they been introduced to the prop (boat)?

(For the record, I think Seasoned dogs should be expected to be introduced to running from inside a boat, but that's a different point.)


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

but the handler who only hunts flooded rice fields never uses a boat. what about that dog?-paul


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*&&&*

Paul,

The rulebook does not call for failure with a pop. I dont intend to imply that it does on my test. What I an getting at, is that by hindering someone's ability to handle his/herself and dog through my test, without needing my, or someone else's assistance to do so, as a judge, I have placed aspects into this persons test that quite frankly aren't necessary and are easily avoidable. 

Let's say the dog pops, so what right? no big deal. Now, let's say the handler gets totally nervous (as some all do at some point in Seasoned), and begins to snowball bad things from there. these things would most likely have been avoided would I have left myself and others out of the equation, and setup a test where the handler can run unassisted to the best of his/her ability. 

For the record, I'm quite healthy, and would love to run the setup proposed on the Seasoned or Finished level. I'll plop down in the layout blind with a seasoned dog, and I guarantee you it'd be the first time with a Finisher blind for both dog and me, BUT as a member of the Hunt Test Committee, I would interject into a setup where a judge mandates how someone must run his/her dog when it plays part in safety.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

paul young said:


> kevin, please make me a list of what props are off limits for seasoned dogs. you see i actually do judge, and i don't want to upset anyone.


No need to be sarcastic. I thought I was clear. _My opinion_, is any prop that is out of the norm, aka. that you as a judge cannot be relatively sure that a dog has been introduced to.



> have you been to one lately? you said you were going to start running dogs in HRC again. i reccommend you attend one if you haven't done so in the recent past.


Regarding the seminar, we have attended two, but it has been a few years. We are likely to attend one again. We enjoy them.

Regarding me running HRC again, nope that's the wife, she is going back to HRC with the dogs she trains. I am sticking with AKC with the dogs I train. We can't afford to run all our dogs in both. I wish we could.


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## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

WOW! I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with this thing! I just wanted to see if someone could offer something that could/would change my mind. 

Atkinson, you hit the nail on the head, dude. We have advertised Ohio River HRC and its upcoming hunt test as a TRUE HRC club and test, and we vowed to uphold the standards and principles of the parent organization. Is this scenario holding true to these standards and principles? I say it isn't. Here's why.........

When people show up to run a Seasoned test, they pretty much know what to expect: 
decoys, dog off lead once he gets to the line, double marked retrieve, up to a 40 yard blind, decoys (sometimes alot, sometimes not), duck calls from the line but probably not from bird boys, thus enhancing the importance of marking off the weapon, sometimes a boat (which I like), and increased distance of marks. 

I personally, I repeat PERSONALLY don't see the need for a field blind on the land series. I don't see what type of element can be tested by using it. I like the thought of having it between the handler and the dog or in front of or behind the handler. 

I tend to agree that quite a few people hunt out of a field blind. I do not. In fact, most people I know do not. Does that make his/her retriever less worthy of an HR title? I say it does not. 

I hunt with a MOJO decoy alot. Would I put one in a test? Heck no! The white wings would draw every dog from 3 counties to it. I think the same philosophy applies to the layout blind. If a hyper-butt dog is sitting beside his "old man," he knows he ain't supposed to break because his "old man" has trained him for that. If the "old man" gets into a layout blind and stands, lays down, kneels, sits with his legs crossed, goes to sleep or whatever, the dog is WAY more apt to say, "See Ya!" There goes your Controlled Break, IF you can get him stopped! 

Why do something which would appear to scream, "Let's see how many break," or "There'll be some complaints (but you know the real word) about this one." 

There are two ways to make a name for yourself and your outfit. I personally think sugar tastes better than poop. 

In no way is this post meant to offend anyone. It's just my own personal opinion.


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*&&&*

the dog being introduced to the layout blind is not the issue for me, as I'm not concerned with whether the dog will flip out and break, so much as I am concerned with the fact that my mandates for running the test could possibly cause someone to throw out his/her back, and or disrupt his/her dog while running the test, when its easily avoidable.

props can still be present in a test. I've used goose decoys plenty 'o times, along with walkups through the woods and into flooded timber with a quack in the distance..... those are all part of hunting birds, and are reasonable expectations that all present at the test can heel his/her dog and walk to the line. What I didnt do was mandate that the handler must crouch to his/her knees in the water, face down in the mudd, until the ducks circled low enough. that's screen play in my mind.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

paul young said:


> but the handler who only hunts flooded rice fields never uses a boat. what about that dog?


I only hunt from below ground blinds, why do I need to train for a boat?

Because a boat is normal waterfowl hunting equipment on might expect to see on an average day waterfowl hunting. But as I said before, that is _my opinion._ And you don't have to agree with it. :?


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## meleagris (May 20, 2003)

Rob:

I ran a started test where they used a MOJO. In the 20-30 dogs that ran--not a single one blinked twice. It really surprised me. For the record--as a judge--I'd never use one.

John
________
WEED VAPORIZERS


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Rob New said:


> WOW! I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with this thing!


No worries, it probably wasn't a hornet's nest until I opened my mouth.

I am having a bad week online. On several of the forums I have been posting, I am being misunderstood. And since it is by so many people, the problem has to be me. :? 

I should shut up for a couple days and regroup. :?


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

Peake:

Your pic????? why does the dog have a collar on in an HRC test?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

we're not talking about something out of the ordinary- these blinds are used by tens of thousands of hunters across the country.

check the rulebook about what seasoned dogs are supposed to be familiar with. it is the same list of equipment that is listed for the finished dogs.

what is different is how the 2 levels are judged.-paul


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*&&&*

I was wondering the same thing.

years ago, a non-weighted non-electric collar was allowed in seasoned, but not any more. 

having said that, I went to sleep at the wheel judging seasoned once, and a very fuzzy black dog ran the test wearing what appeared to be a black piece of string that looked more like a cat collar. didnt catch it at all just by looking at the dog as it walked to the line, but I did notice it on the trip it made around my chair with a bird in its mouth.


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
Brunette videos


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I agree with Rob.

In fact, 4 out of 5 dentists surveyed prefer the taste of sugar to that of poop, for their patients who chew sugar or poop. :wink: 

For a prelim, controversial stuff need not be done. Your goal is to put on a fair test for all, within the standard, that adequately evaluates the dogs, while proving to your field rep that you guys are worthy of the HRC insignia and membership. The goal of your poll has been achieved. Clearly, this is a controversial topic and therefore not needed for your prelim.

It sounds like someone wants to put their signature on your test. They can do it by serving up some sugar and not poop.

P.S. My buddy Rick was thinking of coming to the Ohio test. His only request was that if his 5 year old son misbehaves, that you guys leave your tasers in the holsters...or at least cut them back to 50% power or 25,000 volts...he's only 35 lbs... :wink: 8) Now I'm sitting here giggling.... :wink: 

Chris


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

Peake said:


> DBeard,
> Good eye as this pic was taken at a training day. Just showing that it might not be that big of an issue after all? Note - I do not hunt or train out of a layout but sounds like I better prepare for it in a possible testing set up with my next Seasoned dawg.
> Peake


I don't plan on preparing any future Seasoned dogs for a layout unless I take up goose hunting here and actually using one. 

There are plenty of other things to test for in a seasoned test without setting up a surprise layout scenario.


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## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

Alright, Atkinson. That was a cheap shot! I was trying to remember if Fanela was the one I disagreed with about the grade school taser deployment. Now I'm laughing too!

I'm looking forward to meeting Rick and the other "Keystoners" at our test. You should try and make it, Chris. It'll be a hoot! I have Beard, Katie, Stephenson, Otey and two other yahoos staying at my house for the weekend. Their room rate is a bottle of bourbon apiece. 

Rick, bring the boy along. I'm sure there'll be other kids there. My 7 year old daughter and 5 year old hellyun will be there. Unless I can find a kennel to put them in for the weekend!

Rob :drinking:


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

Rob, 
can you handle a bottle of Knob Creek Kentucky Bourbon? or you want some of that clear Mtn Dew stuff? LOL
That should calm your nerves


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

COOL!!!
If a seasoned dog can deal with a diversion, a remote sit outside a blind should be no problem. I agree with Rob New in part that some of these dogs are about a year old and some people don't train with layouts, but you hear the same complaint from started people about decoys and working out of a boat (on the shore of course).


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

From the rulebook:

"HUNTING EQUIPMENT 

Hunting equipment such as boats, decoys, duck blinds, calls, etc. will be used in these tests. "


It doesn't say 'should be' used, 'we recommend you use', 'it would be nice if you' used, it says WILL BE. Therefore, if I am sending my entry in it implies I am ready to test at that standard with the above 'props' have already been exposed to my dog.

The fact that there are those responding stating these are young dogs, inexperienced etc. implies to me they have missed the boat. It's about testing a hunting dog. Not titling a dog as fast as possible yet when push comes to shove the result is not having a dog that can completely perform at that standard.

I trust I have relayed my perspective on the subject. The scenario is within the guidelines of the rulebook but apparently atypical and most have probably not trained for the work therefore the resistance to change. Like Rob said, most know what to expect. For me, I prefer a judge who thinks outside the box yet within the rulebook.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

What if a guy from Mass. met a guy from Ill. on the net. Talking about hunting, dogs etc. and the guy from Mass. gets invited to a hunt in Ill with his SH or HR dog?
The guy from Ill. is probably assuming the dog to be steady and ready to hunt in his "typical hunting scenario" which is layout blinds in corn fields.
Based on the standards of both orgs. he would assume that a HR or SH dog should be able to handle it.
I would.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Here's a confession: I led large parties of layout hunters for geese virtually every open season day and most afternoons for more than the first decade that I've been guiding, and at least fairly frequently in the years since, also did a great deal of Ohio goose hunting with parties that layed out under makeshift camo, long before anyone ever dreamed of store-bought "layout blinds" - and it never crossed my mind that laying out would pose a serious physical barrier to participation in a hunting retriever test.

And I do think such a barrier to participation deserves serious consideration. But, that said, I'd reckon that a dog distracted from its mark by its master getting a hand up behind it is just as apt to be distracted by a healthy handler standing up, a hunter standing up to stretch in the field, the shucking in of fresh shells, and any number of other everyday field distractions. Dogs don't hunt and become "seasoned" in a vacuum.

But my concern is simply that HRC hunting retriever tests remain just that, not just another trainers' test. I'm out there hunting virtually every day of open season and haven't hunted out of a boat in over twenty years, but I certainly believe that a "seasoned hunting retriever" ought to be ready to do so. Shoot, for that matter, I've never seen a layout blind in the field, but it shouldn't throw a "seasoned hunting retriever". 

What chaps me is when clever judges start creating unnatural tests, like chunking walk-up birds in a dog's face to tempt a break. That's an example of something that _never_ happens in the field, anywhere. But I've seen just that in Seasoned. Wouldn't screw us up, because we use in-your-face birds very early on to teach stop-to-flush and firm up steadiness, but I'd sure stand by those who say "That's not testing against a _hunting standard_. That's testing against a _training standard_." 

There is an important difference, and I believe it would be a huge mistake for the HRC to lose sight of its roots - and the reason it's more, at least for some of us, than just an also-ran training tester.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

DeBeard
I have seen them used in florida. Let me tell you there anit a whole lot of goose hunting in this state.


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

I am going to go at this from a handler/gun safety issue instead of has the dog been "exposed" to all possible hunting scenarios. A lot of first time seasoned handlers could have trouble with this set-up from a gun safety perspective. How and when does the handler take and load the gun? Can the handler make the gun safe and put it in a stand before he/she gets up from the blind? What if the dog creeps? What if the dog decides to get in the blind with the handler? I can see lots of different things occuring that could result in an unsafe gun handling situation. HRC has been very lucky in the fact that we have never had an accident with a firearm. I would hate to be the judge that sets up a test that results in a dog or person being hurt because of an unsafe gun handling situation. 

When all is said and done, we are testing hunting dogs. I don't care if the dog has or hasn't been exposed to a lay-out blind, I care if the dog can mark, handle and remain under control. I think if more judges put as much thought into placement of marks and blinds as they did in trying to make this a "real" hunt, the HRC testing program would come out ahead in the long run. You can use all the equipment in a test you want, but in the end we are still testing to see if a dog can mark and run blinds like a true hunting dog should. 

Joe


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
EXTREME Q TOWER VAPORIZER REVIEW


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## roger (May 5, 2004)

Wow, Rob....leave it to you to get 5 pages of responses on 1 subject. :lol: Chris A. you hit the nail exactly on the head, Rob and I have talked for a couple of weeks about this very subject, and I know as Chairperson, and President of our Club, Rob as has grave concern pertaining to this matter. I have participated in many functions, events, fundraisers, D.U. ect....and have never witnessed anyone as devoted and dedicated as Rob in trying to assure Ohio HRC prelim. is a huge sucess. Both of our concern is, a STANDARD, & fair test to test the RETRIEVERS ability, and not make a mockery of the seasoned test, and judges alike. I agree with you Chris that a judge should not concern himself or hers prior to witnessing the test grounds, who knows, logistics of a steep bank at the line ect.. may not even allow the use of a layout blind. The problem stems from I believe from a apprentice judge, who is a avid waterfowler that has good intentions but may need to confer with the other judge, who I have a tremendous respect for, and lastly, the Hunt Test Comittee has the final say.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Please know I certainly wouldn't fault a hunt committee that vetoed anything out of the current norm _for a preliminary hunt_, but thank goodness for judges who are avid waterfowlers with good intent. They're the counter-balance to the training testers' pull toward where competition has led AKC trialing.


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## blackdi (Mar 12, 2003)

Haven't been on the RTF for a few days. To answer of the PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS. Tim, Kevin. I AM a person with a lot of limitations, Many Many back opreations. Loss of one lung the other 3/4 good. Muscle seperation from the inter spine. (thier is more) 

On all of my entire forms I put tha I am liminted on lay down, walking down hill. There has been NOT ONE CLUB that has not helped me. Every club has been there if I was in need. YES there was time I was in trouble, With my eyes or verbel I had got help.

Rob when you said not to open a can of worms on another post. (callbacks) Then we have to here about the tazer? HA HA HA

Terry Cover


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## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

Terry:

A few months ago, we had a lengthy discussion about a Taser M26 deployment at a school. I won't go into the details because I don't want to start THAT debate again. 
I think we all agreed to disagree and dropped it before internet punches were thrown. That's one of the things I like about this place: Debate without bloddy noses! 

Rob :grab:


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## blackdi (Mar 12, 2003)

Rob I agree. I enjoy how the topic is one thing, then before you know it....
Thier is a hijack.

The other thing is that it gets to me is when a people state he or she is only out of started. We will see, I don't know. To me you are in the hole if you don't train before you test. The book of rules say's what you are going to be tested on. What SEASON DOGS are going to be tested on....
YOU should train on what the event is being set upon. Do I thing that on the same weekend you run your dog in started (sat) then season on (sun). YES if your dog has been trained for that level. If it is a started dog that can not do season stuff. NO. That is why we train to get to that level so there is no failer.


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

black di

your last paragraph was a good one

I always TEST a level below where I train


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*Hey Big Dog*

 Hey Big Dog, bring some of those flatland dogs up here in the hills and they will freak out...........LOL. Got some hills up here that are a REAL challenge.... Mine at Hurricane Lake the first time thought they were in the house cause they had never seen so much flat land........LOL. A mark up an over a couple of my hills would be PLENTY for those flatlanders........LOl


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## meleagris (May 20, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> Please know I certainly wouldn't fault a hunt committee that vetoed anything out of the current norm _for a preliminary hunt_, but thank goodness for judges who are avid waterfowlers with good intent. They're the counter-balance to the training testers' pull toward where competition has led AKC trialing.


So Rick you're saying it's better to set up something goofy in the name of "just like hunting" than to actually test the dog's skills??? 

John
________
Medical marijuana


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*?*

why is it considered "a trainers test" simply because someone is using common courtesy to a few handlers? I dont have a problem with a goose hunt in seasoned. I do have a problem with mandating how someone should run his/her dog if he/she is physically unable to do so. I certainly dont want to play judge over who really could actually lay down vs. who really cant, so I'll simply provide a camo seat, stacked with plenty of hay, corn rolls, whatever, and be sure to hide any and all aspects of a bucket that some would think might detour a dog from thinking its not really hunting.


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## Andr? Fendlason (Jan 3, 2003)

*No problem with it here...*

The standard is clear and the test as described is well within the limits of what a seasoned hunting retriever should be able to do.

The test is too much only if you havn't trained your dog well enough to perform the test so... Who's fault would that be? The standard or the trainer? I think we all know the answer.

Andr


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Meleagris said:


> Rick Hall said:
> 
> 
> > Please know I certainly wouldn't fault a hunt committee that vetoed anything out of the current norm _for a preliminary hunt_, but thank goodness for judges who are avid waterfowlers with good intent. They're the counter-balance to the training testers' pull toward where competition has led AKC trialing.
> ...


Of course not. 

Can't imagine how one might read something so ridiculous into what I've written. Unless he hasn't actually been reading it. But I'll try to be as clear as I possibly can: 

I am not talking about putting up a hunting facade.

I am saying the HRC should be testing _hunting skills_ - a very basic one of which, demonstrated by the case in point, would be working from an eye level position nearby, rather than at the side of and beneath the handler's domination. A very real-world demonstration that a "seasoned hunting retriever's" handler needn't be hovering over it at the line.

Rudimentary marking, handling and line manners aren't the only skills in a "seasoned hunting retriever's" tool kit.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: ?*



dukdawgn said:


> why is it considered "a trainers test" simply because someone is using common courtesy to a few handlers? I dont have a problem with a goose hunt in seasoned. I do have a problem with mandating how someone should run his/her dog if he/she is physically unable to do so. I certainly dont want to play judge over who really could actually lay down vs. who really cant, so I'll simply provide a camo seat, stacked with plenty of hay, corn rolls, whatever, and be sure to hide any and all aspects of a bucket that some would think might detour a dog from thinking its not really hunting.


Got nothing to do with whether the stinkin' bucket's hidden. It's unlikely the bucket influences the dog at all - unless sly trainers are building a strong association between it and intimidation in training. (Which we know they would never do.) 

We're not talking about window dressing. What you're now proposing would, however, be a very different _test_, unless you moved the dog to a remote position. That would narrow the gap between the two _tests_.


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

*use of roboduck*



> Scenario:
> 
> One of the judges at the Finished water test had his new ?Roboduck? in the back of the truck. He sat down with his co-judge to discuss the possibility of using it in the test.
> 
> ...


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## KJB (Jul 1, 2003)

"A couple of the field reps I spoke to indicated that by using a Roboduck, we might *merely be testing which dogs had seen one* and which had not."

 Excellent point. I can think of a few other words that might be used instead of "roboduck". :wink:


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

Are we testing the seasoned dogs ability to handle a layout blind, or their ability to mark and remember birds.

In testing, people train hard for what they for what they expect to be a normal test in that level by what they read in the rulebook or what they have seen at previous tests. Add in a layout blind for Seasoned level testing, I feel you will see upset handlers because you moved away from normality and introduced what may be viewed as a surprise situation they they were not prepared to train for.

we can test marking and memory with out it. Not every hunter uses a layout blind, but every dog must have the skills in regard to marking and memory to be a hunting retriever. 

Set up a quality test to show the dogs abilities to perform line manners, control, desire, style, marking, and memory.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i guess we need an approved list of hunting equipment. might as well publish approved scenarios while we're at it. :roll:

when i went to Canada and they had us put the dog remote on a dog stand in the middle of a stick pond, it was something i didn't train for, but since it was an honest, for real scenario, i had no quarrel with what the judges had set up. we did fine. if we had not, i wouldn't blame the judges or the testing organization or dig thru every rule, guideline, or policy to try to prove i was wronged . i'd go home and train.

as a judge at a pre-lim i'd stay away from this scenario. the club has to show that they are worthy of holding a licensed event and i would want to make their job as easy as possible.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Derek, 

we are testing their suitability as hunting retrievers. you must be thinking about AKC ht's.

give me 4 birds and a pond. i'll give you a nut-busting test of marking and control. i won't need a boat,gun,decoys,blinds,wingers, duck calls or a blind.

is that what you want at an HRC test?

how do you think the dog that can't take his eyes off a spinner at a test will do when you take it hunting? will it magically be able to deal with it because it's not a test?

i'm done on this topic.-paul


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

One more idea...we keep going back to realism to hunting conditions. Are these "realisms" for the dog or more for the handler? Pup knows darn well they are in a test environment the moment you pull onto the gravel road. For more realism into a HRC hunt we need to first address winger concealment. Pup could care less about the camo everyone is wearing, or the poorly blown duck calls, or the smells of a BBQ grill cooking for some hungry handlers. Pup is there to do the normal work of what is called for in the standard and what we have seen done at other tests.
For seasoned tests I want to see if the dog can mark and show good memory, and have control for decent blinds and if this dog is capable of going into the field to perform its task as a conservation tool.

Seasoned dogs are a work in progress. There's still alot of work left to do before classifying the pup as a Finished retriever.


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*Re: ?*



Rick Hall said:


> dukdawgn said:
> 
> 
> > why is it considered "a trainers test" simply because someone is using common courtesy to a few handlers? I dont have a problem with a goose hunt in seasoned. I do have a problem with mandating how someone should run his/her dog if he/she is physically unable to do so. I certainly dont want to play judge over who really could actually lay down vs. who really cant, so I'll simply provide a camo seat, stacked with plenty of hay, corn rolls, whatever, and be sure to hide any and all aspects of a bucket that some would think might detour a dog from thinking its not really hunting.
> ...


I'm not emphasizing the need for a bucket, or the need for its removal. I'm all for the seasoned dog working its way through a seasoned level goose hunt, but I am against dictating how someone should run his/her dog in an obvious manner that could hurt this person. 

Dude, I like the test ideal. I've setup goose hunts for tests. Seasoned dogs should be able to deal with goose decoys when goose hunting. I simply dont expect a handler to put his/herself into the hospital because someone dictated they must do something that he/she physically may not be able to do. 

If you want to run a test where the dog and handler are eyeball to eyeball, then make a way for someone else, that can not move around in certain ways, to still be able to enjoy the fun. Those that can lay on the ground, let them. Those that can't, they should be able to request your help without it being thrown back in their face that someone feels they'd have the upper-hand on their dog by sitting in a position that would prevent them from personal injury. 

Goose hunting is just that, hunting, and a seasoned dog in goose country should be able to handle a seasoned goose hunt. Its a test for dogs more so than handlers. We expect that handlers, in general, can walk with the dog at heel, shoulder/fire a shotgun, and accept retreived game birds from the dog. Past that we are simply creating a test of the handler, not the dog. In any given instance, handlers who can not physically do certain actions, due to impairment, should receive any and all the support/assistance that he/she could possible manage to get in a day's time. 

maybe I'm just too generous..... what with wanting to see everyone be able to play the game on any given day.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Believe I'm going to follow Paul's lead and walk away from this one. 

I'm not a serious Hunting Retriever Club member, much less one of its many pillars, *to whom I am most grateful for maintaining the organization.* Though I wasn't far from the ground floor when I first joined in 1984, my involvement has been for the purely selfish purpose of placing additional training incentive upon myself when I have young hunting retrievers, for which I'm anxious to build firm hunting foundations. Accordingly, I let membership lapse from the time my first HRC dog reached our Finished level goals until I started another pup in the mid '90s. And, in turn, I let memership lapse again when he was passing Finished tests. That we quit while that young dog was but one pass short of his HRCH speaks clearly to our motivation.

Now, as I look forward to starting my next hunting retriever pup, I've again joined the HRC in anticipation that it will again prove a valuable *hunting retriever* training tool. But I, quite frankly, don't feel I've earned the right to be choosing the organization's course. 

So I'll try to bite my tongue just now and simply point to those founders who had every right to set the HRC's tiller and quote, one last time, their first and last words on the "Purpose and Philosophy" of Seasoned level testing from our rule book: 

*"This hunt test is for Seasoned Hunting Retrievers and Handlers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area... 

The Seasoned Hunting Retriever in these hunting tests usually has a couple of seasons of hunting experience, and more training."*

Those founders said nothing about playing to lowest common denomenators.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Was apparently typing while my new friend, dukdawgn, was posting and now feel compelled to add one more item. My name's not "dude".


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*&&&*

sorry bud, my bad.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

You thought Rick had a Dell huh?

Didn't the "dude get a Dell" kid get busted on drug charges?


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*yep*

yep, he sure did. now IBM has the better commercials.


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## Patti Benton (Jan 6, 2003)

When a person with a disability lets me know (being Hunt Test Secretary), I let the judges that are judging that class know as well. We've done this 3 times and all 3 times we were able to setup good tests and still able to have the diabled handler run the tests. One of the tests was a Seasoned test and the handler was Dick Shrum - if you got to see Dick and his dog run - OMG - it brought tears to your eyes. It was just beautiful. Everyone was applauding and crying at the same time.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Is an obese person "disabled?"


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## Patti Benton (Jan 6, 2003)

*Disabled Person*

Kevin,
If it's an issue, I would want the handler to let me know, so we can make sure that the hanlder is able to run the test that is setup.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Bump now an even 100


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2005)

Been absent awhile...

I don't think requiring use of layout or coffin blind or a tree stand is unrealistic for a seasoned retriever. What does the term 'seasoned' mean? If a dog has never been exposed to a boat, a blind, or remote placement, then the dog is not seasoned. Is there anyone reading this thread that hunts from a bucket all the time? Is there anyone who actually believes that a dog trained exclusively beside a bucket would get it done from a remote sit timber hunt? 

HRC is supposed to be about testing a dogs ability to be a useful hunting companion. I hope it doesn't further succumb to field trial influences or become the clinical skill tests that AKC has become. Props (factors) such as those discussed should be mandated. 

Ok, B4 I step any further out on a soapbox, I'm gonna stop.

Regards

CZ


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## Latisha (Feb 2, 2004)

A newbie perspective on this. First, I think the points about handlers with physical limitations and that this is being considered for a preliminary hunt are very good.

But, just wanted to say, from the point of view of someone who has only run a couple of Seasoned tests and is very new to handling the gun, etc. I think this test would be fun! The biggest worry for me would be trying to keep the gun safe and deal with getting in and out of this blind-thing at the same time. As long as the dog work was held to the accepted standard, what's wrong with adding a little spice to make it fun for the handlers?

Latisha


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Hunt'em Up said:


> I don't think requiring use of layout or coffin blind or a tree stand is unrealistic for a seasoned retriever.


For me that logic means I have to make sure my Seasoned retriever has been introduced to every potential hunting prop. I disagree.

It is reasonable for a judge to expect a Finished retriever to have been introduced to every conceivable hunting prop.

But it is only reasonable for a judge to expect a Seasoned Retriever to have been introduced to normal, average hunting props (the ones a hunter should expect to see on an average day afield without being forewarned).

If we allow layout-type blinds in Seasoned, do we expect a Seasoned dog to have also been introduced to motion decoys on water? Mojos? Goose flags? Etc., Etc., Etc. There are what seems to be an endless line of hunting props. Opening up Seasoned to one out of the norm, and you justify all others.

I can see it now, the handler is required to make motion in the water with his motion decoys, while the birds are thrown. Real to life! But in Seasoned?!

Would it be a fun test? Absolutely! But in my opinion it is technically unreasonable to expect a Seasoned retriever to have been introduced to layout-type blinds (or motion decoys, etc.).


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2005)

Kevin,

Yeah, I see where you're com'in from on this one. Certainly we need to draw the line between seasoned and finished somehow. I'm of the opinion HRC should do that with bird placement and blind complexity, not with 'props'. A seasoned retriever, to me, is a dawg that has a season or two of actual hunting experience...during which time pup is exposed and acclimated to props that are regularly used while hunting in the vicinity in which the test is being held. While I don't expect a seasoned dog to line a 100 yd blind, I sure wouldn't take one hunting that was uncontrollable in a layout boat or would break if he wasn't right next to me. 

Sometimes I think we forget just how demanding real hunting is and let our concept of what is and is not, an effective hunting companion slip a little bit.

Regards,

CZ


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

OK,

What is so hard about a 'seasoned', synonymous with experienced, level dog sitting next to an open layout blind. The rulebook states the seasoned retriever can be placed a reasonable distance away from the handler anyhow i.e. remote. The above scenario did not call for multiple layout blinds flagging with doors shut followed by multiple, tandem shots, after doors flying open. The most complicated thing about this scenario would be if you, the handler, could not ambulate in or out of the thing. Even then, arrangements could be made without changing the standard. I don't believe every dog or handler needs to have the same set-up, just the same standard.

I think the greatest challenge facing HRC is its rapid growth and the influence those that don't care about the original purpose and philosophy of HRC, can generate.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Okay here's an off the wall question - if we are suppose to be duplicating hunting conditions then "Why can't I use my e-collar?" :wink: 

I know, I know its a training device, but I do use it when hunting!! So its really both and my test-wise dog would be so much more behaved! I don't even have to have the transmitter - heck it could be a dummy collar at the test....just a thought....

Lainee, Flash and Bullet


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Probably because most dogs are collarwise and it would fall under intimidation. FOM, if you beat your dog with a layout blind or it was common to correct your dog with a layout blind I bet they would not let you use them.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

RickF,

I know.....

My dog is collarwise, but that's cause I'm a dumbass trainer or at least with him! Some days after a test I wished I could of run it with a collar on him - boy he would look good!  

Oh well....trainer hard, eh?!

FOM


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*Guys & Gals.....*

 Bird placement and terrain to me is more important than using props. From watching Seasoned HT's and running Seasoned HT's in IN, Il, Ky, OH, and Arkansas and under some very good judges that put on HT's that were NORMAL for hunting conditions in each of those states the MAJORITY of the Seasoned dogs I saw run were mostly dogs under 18 months old. How can a dog that young have a couple of seasons of hunting under their belts? I went back and looked thru the catalogs from all the hunt tests I have run over the last 3 years and got an average age of the seasoned dogs. I KNOW that HRC tries to duplicate actual hunting conditions but in 30 something HT's I have never seen a setup described in the scenerio outlined here. I have seen the line in a FLAT bottomed boat stabilized on the bank but NEVER a layout blind. I have had more than once heard from a NEWBIE handler that they were running to see where they were in their training so they they could get their HUNTING dogs up to the level they want them to be. A freguent statement I also heard "My dog NEVER EVER does this in training."I ask back "DO you use correction when your dog does not obey?" ANSWER I got "YES< I would burn their bu%%". I am with FOM use a Ecollar and TEST like you train...Just my .02 cents worth.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

RickF said:


> What is so hard about a 'seasoned', synonymous with experienced, level dog sitting next to an open layout blind.


Nothing, if you ask me. A Seasoned dog is quite capable of handling that scenario.

However my question is different -- is it fair for a judge to expect Seasoned dogs to have been introduced to that piece of hunting equipment (prop)? 

Since it is not a normal piece of hunting equipment one can anticipate seeing on any normal day afield, I answer "no." It is not fair for a judge to expect a Seasoned dog to have been introduced to that piece hunting equipment. 

It is fair for a judge to expect a Finished dog to have been introduced to that piece of hunting equipment, and all other types of hunting equipment.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Guys & Gals.....*



Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> Bird placement and terrain to me is more important than using props.


Yeah, but the props make it a lot more fun. The more the better.

In my opinion.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Know I'm supposed to be staying mum, but it's quite surprising to hear a Midwestern hunter say that a layout blind "is not a normal piece of hunting equipment one can anticipate seeing on any normal day afield." 

Maybe they're just a TV huntin' show prop.


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

OK but these 'props' are important for a hunting dog to be aware of and be able to function in the presence of.

Here's a thought:

The Hunting Retriever movement was created to reward the hunter and his dog.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

"Seasoned" by definition...what do you folks think this means?

"Finished" by definition...again, same question...

Just because you see lots of puppies running Seasoned does not mean you need to make tests overly suited to puppies! I promise you the original intent behind "Seasoned" was for a "Seasoned" retriever.

"Seasoned" was not originally designed to be run by dogs an average of 1.5 years old! It is not about age. Seasoned is about a HUNTING DOG who performs like a SEASONED hunting dog.

I would love to run a seasoned test out of a layout...but not as a prelim under a first time judge. (For the club's sake, not the young dogs')

Chris


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2005)

Rick F. wrote...


> The Hunting Retriever movement was created to reward the hunter and his dog.


Bingo :!: I could not agree more. BTW, the majority of hunters I know use layout boat around here. It would certainly qualify as typical hunting equipment in MO.

Perhaps a little rulebook info is appropriate...

Page 32, Purpose and Philosophy

"The Seasoned Hunting Retriever in these hunting tests usually has a couple of seasons of hunting experience, and the handlers have spent more time training" also "it duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout your area".

Ok, the intent of the seasoned test is not mid/post transition level skill evaluation, but rather a dog that can get it done while hunting and has been exposed to those props regularly used in the vicinity of the hunt.

In addition, how about page 26
Seasoned Hunting Retrievers should "sit quietly in any position designated by the Handler"

Anyway, I think I'm flogging this issue. I know where I stand. I just think it's unfortunate that there are some really good trainers out there that think including these 'props' in hunts are a hinderence and don't add anything meaningful to the evaluation of our hunting retrievers. 

Regards,

CZ


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Just for snorts and giggles I posted polls on a couple goose sites, and so far 100% of the Ohio goose hunters responding own layout blinds.

















(OK, so I've only gotten one response.)


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## Bryan Agnew (Mar 17, 2004)

I don't like the idea of a layout blind in a hunt test. It seams that down here if a judge used a layout blind it would be a jacked up test to begin with. I don't think that the idea of hunt testing is to confuse a dog or introduce them to new hunting gadgets, but to test their abilities. I don't think that props (other than decoys) add anything to a test but maybe I just don't get it. What do some of yall think props actually add to the ability to test dogs and handlers?


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Hot dang! 100% of the Illinois goose hunters surveyed to date also own layout blinds.



























Yeh, you guessed it.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Bryan Agnew said:


> I don't like the idea of a layout blind in a hunt test. It seams that down here if a judge used a layout blind it would be a jacked up test to begin with. I don't think that the idea of hunt testing is to confuse a dog or introduce them to new hunting gadgets, but to test their abilities. I don't think that props (other than decoys) add anything to a test but maybe I just don't get it. What do some of yall think props actually add to the ability to test dogs and handlers?


"Props" add the ability to test whether "seasoned hunting retrievers" can handle hunting situations. What a concept!


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
How To Use A Vapor Genie


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Been having some fun with this, but here's a dead serious question:

Why are those who find working dogs in hunting situations a distraction from marking and handling tests running in the HRC? Are they all that's available to you? Are the AKC marking and handling tests too difficult? Or...?


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Peake said:


> I have to pose the obvious question I haven't seen asked yet.
> 
> If the use of this equipment in anyway falls into a shade of gray for Prelim purposes (Per the original Q.) why would it be viewed as less questionable in a regular Hunts use?
> 
> Peake


Clearly some would question such a test regardless of its host. But an established club has the experience to be more sure of its footing. Clubs putting on their first tests are in survival mode.


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
FREE PORN


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Dave,

I think you would find this is well within the rulebook and not really an issue when push comes to shove. However, as you see, it can create some strong emotions and as Chris pointed out the goal of the test committee is to get approval of the prelim. This is in contrast to directing their energies dealing with a malcontent that obviously hasn't trained their dog to the standard.

Rick


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
Big Tits Chinese


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

Okay, some guys hunt from a layout blind. I've hunted in a pit where the retriever is kept in a sunken crate behind the pit. All the retrieves are blind retrieves. Let's set this test up. Don't really need a pit, just put the retriever in a crate and cover it up. Shoot three times, let the dog out and pick up the birds. Realistic hunting scenario, you betcha!! Good hunt test- No way!! The use of props does not make a hunting retriever. A dog that can mark and handle is what makes a hunting retriever. 

Could most seasoned dogs handle the lay-out blind scenario? Don't know, but I bet with a little training they wouldn't have a problem. I don't hunt out of a layout blind though and I'm not going to go buy one just because some judge may set a test up with one. Set up tests with meaningful marks and blinds appropriate for the level and let the dogs do the work. 

Joe


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*Amen Joe*

That is the best response I have seen Joe. That was what I have been trying to say all along.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

thunderdog said:


> Could most seasoned dogs handle the lay-out blind scenario? Don't know, but I bet with a little training they wouldn't have a problem.


Just to be clear, that is my point also. Any good Seasoned Retriever worth his salt can handle a layout set-up!

My question is if it is fair for a judge to assume a Seasoned Retriever has seen one before its use before a hunt test? I don't think so. And if it is not fair to assume a Seasoned Retriever has seen one before the hunt test, is it fair to use it in a hunt test setup at that level? Again, I don't think so.


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## thelabguy (Jul 20, 2004)

Thunderdog wrote:


> I've hunted in a pit where the retriever is kept in a sunken crate behind the pit. All the retrieves are blind retrieves. Let's set this test up. Don't really need a pit, just put the retriever in a crate and cover it up. Shoot three times, let the dog out and pick up the birds. Realistic hunting scenario, you betcha!! Good hunt test-"?


Actually, this would be a very good test of control for a Seasoned Hunting Retriever- well, if you stripped it down to a single blind... or maybe two blinds. Of course, you'd need separate marking series, and the rest of the test requirements (diversion, walkup/tracking/quartering option, etc), but this could take care of your blind requirements, and they would certainly be distinctly "separate" from the marks, as is strongly encouraged in the seminar.

Mpnsho is that if Layout Blinds are commonly used in the locale, you can and even SHOULD use them in a Seasoned test. The Seasoned Hunting Retriever should be able to work in that situation, the blind adds realism without decreasing the dog's ability to see the marks, and the remote sit is a viable test element (as a bonus, the dog would not have to be positioned very far from the handler). It's all good. And should be a fun test.
Kevin[/quote]


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## blackdi (Mar 12, 2003)

I don't think that anyone said that the dog has to be sat on a remote place away from the lay out blind. The dog is still going to be beside the handler. There just is no bucket in the open. Other that the thickest of the lay out blind, there should still only be inches between the handler and the dog. With the dog seeing clear view of the falls, I don't see the problem. Your dog should already be steady. If not, that is what you got to work on.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

OK. I've been watching this thread for a while and I think a lot of you have some interesting opinions. It seems to me that the real division among folks here might be what constitutes a hunting retriever. One post even stated that running marks and blinds is all that really matters. 
I have to disagree. Although I see this attitude at every test I attend and it seems that most training books and videos focus on the mechanics of retrieving, there is a whole lot more involved in training a dog to be a *HUNTING* retriever than just picking things up and bringing them back. 
Not long ago, I watched a finished test in which the water series was run from a permanent wooden duck blind. In the water, about 8-10 feet to the left and slightly forward of the blind, was a partially submerged round bale of hay (a big 1000-pounder) that served as a retriever stand. The handler was required to place his dog on the hay bale and then get into the blind for the test. NUMEROUS dogs would not stay on the bale, and if they did, they turned around and focused on the handler instead of looking out at the water. I was in the gallery and you can only imagine the griping from the handlers (some of them pro trainers) about the test. I looked at the test and just made a mental note to train for that kind of scenario. Not necessaryly because I may see it at a test, but because I can see many situations where that type of situation may come up in actual hunting. In fact, not much later, I wound up hunting my dog in a very similar situation. Glad I trained for it. Was this test all about marking and handling? NO. Was it very much a HUNTING retriever test? Absolutely. A dog that can't do it is not a FINISHED retriever in my opinion. The same thing applies to running the dog beside an OPEN layout blind. You put the dog at sit or down, and you run the test. There are no doors flying open to startle the dog. The handler is simply in a different position. I try to handle my dogs from standing, sitting and lying down. I've never used a layout blind, but I may get to go on that dream goose hunt one day and I don't want my dog to be completely unfamiliar with the concept. 
The problem, as I see it, is that too many folks try to race to their titles and there are only so many concepts that you can train to in a given period of time. If you are trying to make a year-old HRCH, you may run into tests that are beyond the capability of the dog simply because you didn't have time to expose him to the situation, or because you think it's all about marks and blinds. Oh well. That is not the intention of the program and I don't think that we should "dumb it down" so that inexperienced dogs can title out. Do you want a HUNTING retriever, or do you just want some letters in front of his name? 
We've all seen ridiculous set-ups before and I don't have an "anything goes" mentality toward this. But if I'm testing in an area where layout blinds or tree stands are commonly used (or maybe even where they are not) my dog and I should be ready to test that way. Just as if I get invited to a hunt in those areas, my dog should be ready to deal with the situation given, or I should leave him at home and hope that someone else brings a hunting retriever.
This kinda reminds me of the position I hold on line manners, but I'll leave that sermon for another day. If you managed to hang on through this last one, I'll cut you a break.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Amen, brother Matt. 

Too many people apparently viewing the HRC as a vehicle to gain titles, rather than hunting retrievers.


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
Vapir One Vaporizer


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2005)

Matt,

Thanks for that last post. Exactly what I was trying to say, but didn't have the energy to put it together.

I'll say it one more time, some of us (myself included), sometimes forget what constitutes a useful and enjoyable hunting retriever. It's not all about marks, blinds, and diversions. For some of us we forget because we get too caught up with training technical concepts and forget about basic socialization excercises. For others, it's simply a matter of not hunting very often.

Matt, you summed it up best when you talked about a hunting invitation. 

Thanks again


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

By the by, my little polls of OH and IL goose hunters are running 18 to 3 in favor of the fact that layout blinds are normal hunting equipment. Most own them.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Hi all, I am the judge that brought up the suggestion on using a Finisher Blind in a Seasoned Test. 

A little back ground first... I have been around dogs both in FT & HT for a number of years. I have worked with Pro trainers and Amature Trainers that have taught me a lot in sitting up test both in FT and HT...

Yes I am the G'Fathered Judge at this HT... After talking with the Lic. Judge that I will be judging with that day. The one thing that he says that he did not want, was to sit on a Bucket in the Middle of the field and trow marks. So that got me thinking of some different things to do. Things that were within the guidlines of sitting up a hutning senerio. "Hence the Finisher Blind" Again these were things that I shared with the HT Chairman to get his opinion on and also talked with other HT folks that have been in the game for awhile. I got different review from everyone, just like I am seeing different opinions on this site...
No I have not seen the grounds that we will be running on, but have seen a video. But IMO a good judge will start getting some ideas on what he would want to do prior to even getting to the test site. Once you get there then you can work with the ideas or create a whole new game plan.
I by no means want to situp a trick test or a test with of Gimmicks. I was sharing thoughts with the HT chairman, which appears to have been a mistake. For reason I will not post. All I was looking to do was throw out some new suggestion so we can have a good hunt test....


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Bill Davis said:


> Once you get there then you can work with the ideas or create a whole new game plan.
> 
> All I was looking to do was throw out some new suggestion so we can have a good hunt test....


You did what most of us do, Bill. You are just what the HRC judging pool needs more of. I applaud your efforts. 

This has to be another first for RTF. Almost running over the judge before he had a chance to do anything but make a suggestion. Seems like we have some over zealous bus drivers involved.

Hang in there Bill. Let us know how things turn out, and if your suggestions made the cutoff. 

Getting grandfathered will allow you to move into the finished category quicker, and then you can set up all the coffin layouts you want, regardless who might hunt that way. 

UB


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Matt, very well said


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

This is a stupid question for you HRC guys, but anyway. 8) 

When you have a remote like Hookset wrote about and I'm thinking more than 15 yards away. Will the dogs follow your shotgun and see the marks. You can't have a marking test if the dogs don't see the birds. If there's no shot or call out in the field, will the dog be able to tell the angle of the shotgun and look out. At the very least you'd need a good high throw for those 100 yarders, no ground skimmers.

I've never done it so maybe the dogs pick it up easily. I don't know.


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## Jason Zerrer (May 12, 2003)

Here, here Bill D. You sound like the kind of judge I would want to run under or have at our club test. Some of the thoughts on this thread are kinda scary to me in terms of where HRC is going. IMHO if you want to purely challenge a dog's MARKING, etc. at a young age go run a derby. HRC is for hunting dogs. To paraphrase a comment earlier all you need is good marking and good handling for a good hunting dog. Buzzzzzzzzzzz, wrong. Truly great hunting dogs are made through experience in a variety of hunting conditions. 

I've said it on the HRC board and I'll say it again, folks will train for things they think they might see at a test. The dog that has been exposed to stands, boats, LAYOUT BLINDS, etc. is going to be a more well rounded dog. The only issue is if the seasoned dog is steady...shouldn't they be? Alternatives are perfectly arranged for those with disabilities. I can't help but think it's nothing but fear of not getting a ribbon behind the contrary posts. I haven't seen 1 legitimate argument why seasoned dogs shouldn't be given this kind of test. 

Here are some excerpts from an article written by Andy Johnson about how things differed now and 20 yrs ago in HRC. It was posted on the HRC site a couple months back and I thought some of the quotes were very relevant to this discussion.

Bill Tarrant suggested the HRC name. His article: "By Hunters for Hunters", and "We can Hunt All Year Around".

HRC was to give hunters, and non-professionals, events to test their dogs in a realistic and practical format. *It was to reflect a day of hunting with a competent hunting dog.*

The clubs would also provide a place where members could learn from and help each other. We often stated that we weren't interested in making the tests so difficult that it no longer reflected what was expected of a hunting dog or of a day of hunting.

The tests reflected what a dog should know at the various levels...expect a hunting dog should and could handle, WHEN HUNTING.

The big thing was realism. 

Also, the set-up of the hunt tests were the same as a day of duck hunting. Cammo clothing, duck and goose calling, blinds and pits, eveything was based on realism. The clubs and judges took pride in having the best duck spread and blinds.

Have you been to a hunt lately where they set you on a white bucket out in the open? What happened to realism? Are the club's trying to run as many dogs through as possible or are they giving the dog and handler 'a day of hunting'? Maybe we should have a prize or content for each region, for the clubs with the best: 'REALISM OF HUNTING TESTS'!

I believe it should start a the clubs. Members should be willing to say, 'let's run fewer dogs and more realism'. 'I want my home club to have the reputation of haing the most realistic set-ups'.





I'm all for not tricking dogs and what not with tests, but simply realistic surroundings and scenarios don't fall into that category IMO.

10 pages and going...


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Jason Z. said:


> I haven't seen 1 legitimate argument why seasoned dogs shouldn't be given this kind of test.


I take exception with that. My argument IS legitimate --

It is unfair for a judge to assume that a started dog has been trained on any props at all.

It is unfair for a judge to assume that a seasoned dog has been trained on all props no matter how abnormal, this includes layouts.

It is fair for a judge to assume that a finished dog has been trained on all props no matter how abnormal, this includes layouts.

-- Show me the illegitimacy.


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Well I guess I'll wade in here also. I run both AKC and HRC. Recently more HRC, since I'm trying to finish my dog's 500 points. I agree with Matt. A seasoned dog should have been exposed to any "props" that are common to his region, a finished dog should have been exposed to all props. Anyone training a seasoned dog should have exposed the dog to things seen in an average day in the field in that region. That is one of the major distinctions between the two levels. Would a layout blind be reasonable here in Florida? Probably not. Would it be reasonable in the mid-west? Of course.

Howard, all of the remote sits that I have run have had duck calls from the field. You are right, it wouldn't be fair to ask the dog to mark off of the gun if he isn't beside the handler.

Buck


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Buck Mann said:


> I agree with Matt. A seasoned dog should have been exposed to any "props" that are common to his region, a finished dog should have been exposed to all props. Anyone training a seasoned dog should have exposed the dog to things seen in an average day in the field in that region.


I believe that is how the rules are written and are intended.


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## Steve Hamel (Mar 1, 2004)

Kevin,

You are way off base on this one. 

The HRC rulebook says time and time again that things used in a normal days hunt (boats,decoys, calls. etc.) will be used in HRC tests. It does not say that judges are required to poll handlers at any specific level, and see if they have trained their dogs using a specific prop.

If your dog isn't ready to run at whatever level, stay home and train. If you feel you are ready, then come prepared for anything within the rulebook. Layout blinds are within the rulebook, period . They are not unfair.

Regards,

Steve


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

HRC is new to my region & I've only run Finished (Seasoned as test dog), but isn't there too much emphasis in this thread on the dog training on specific hunting "props" for your region? Don't many folks travel outside their region to take that once in a lifetime hunt with a dog that will be exposed to a new hunting scenario?

I think the goal is to have a steady, solid hunting dog that can handle any hunting situation without coming unglued. 

I was one of those folks who was not thrilled when I ran a test with roboducks because my dog had never seen them. I shouldn't have wasted my energy. The dog could have cared less. A good hunting dog knows the birds are coming from out in the field/swamp/ what have you & knows to sit where he's told to, wait for the action to start, mark off the gun & pick up the birds when he's told to.

If you train your dog to be an all around gun dog he's going to take his cues from you & just get the job done.

M


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Steve Hamel said:


> You are way off base on this one.


Sorry, Steve, but it is you who are off base -- 



> The HRC rulebook says time and time again that things used in a normal days hunt (boats,decoys, calls. etc.) will be used in HRC tests.


I AGREE! However, _generally speaking_ (exceptions can be made according to regions) a layout blind is NOT "normal." A motion decoy on water is NOT "normal." Mojos are NOT "normal." Just because it exists, does not make it "normal."



> It does not say that judges are required to poll handlers at any specific level, and see if they have trained their dogs using a specific prop.


Straw man. You attribute to me something I never said in order to shoot it down. I'll pay your next HRC entry if you can find me having said that anywhere, ever in my life.



> Layout blinds are within the rulebook, period. They are not unfair.


You are not reading my posts close enough. Try again. I said it is "unfair for a judge to assume a seasoned dog has been exposed to every prop no matter how abnormal, including layouts."

Are layouts fair according to the rulebook? YES! If they are "normal" to the region where the test is being held.

-- Sorry, like I said, it was you who was off-base.

Regards,


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## Jason Zerrer (May 12, 2003)

I'll give you started. But in my opinion the burden of proof is on those who say it is "unfair." Is it unfair just because it is a prop? Or the type of prop? What if there were full body goose decoys a dog had to run around on the way to a mark or blind? Unfair prop? Both should be seen in the same scenario. Should there be fewer decoys at the seasoned level than the finished? The level of difference in seasoned and finished is built into the distances, resends, etc. The setting of a real day hunting with realistic hunting equipment is the same in my eyes.

A seasoned dog is an actively hunted dog. Does anyone on this thread disagree with that statement? A hunting dog should be able to handle the situation...the situation requires only that a dog be steady. A seasoned dog should be steady, no? That's why it doesn't fly with me to say it's unfair at a seasoned level.

It might even HELP a dog mark if you think about it. Dog is sitting at heel next to a blind. They are marking off the gun more at their eye level, seems like it would be easier to me.

Is the concern that a dog won't be as steady next to an unknown object as it would a bucket?


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## Jason Zerrer (May 12, 2003)

I see the qualifier "normal" coming up alot also. I guess I have a hard time thinking of a layout blind as an abnormal element. Northeast, south, midwest, west, Canada all with rampant use of the layout blind. Maybe we should use the Macks Prairie Wings or Cabelas as a guide.  :wink: Any piece of equipment with at least 2 pages dedicated to its sale is fair game at a hunt test...at the seasoned level. :wink:


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2005)

Some good points Jason :!: :!: Look'in forward to your Midway return.

Kevin, could you give me an example of some hunting props that are normal to you? Bucket, call, and blocks are a given. What else?

Thanks,

CZ...who still thinks Kevin needs to get out more 8)


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Kevin, my little polls of Ohio and Illinios goose hunters are now running 25 to 4 _against_ your contention that layout blinds are not normal hunting equipment. Maybe you need to get out more.


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## Matt Miller (Apr 22, 2004)

Normal or Not ( I think they are normal, as well as roboducks, goose kites, stuffers etc) I think if I show up at a Seasoned test and there is a layout blind that we are going to use and I had failed to prepare my dog or myself for it then it is my fault. As far as I am concerned a Normal Days hunt can include any type of equipment sold for the pursuit and taking of ducks, geese, pheasant etc.... Hell I don't hunt out of pit blinds either but if I went to a test and there was a pit dug for me and my dog and that is what we were going to run out of I am cool with that. I don't see me laying in a layout blind any different than me standing behind my dog in a holding blind while the marks are going down.


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

Okay, it seems like the majority in favor of using layout blinds also believe a seasoned level dog should have been exposed to all kinds of hunting equipment and ready for anything he may see in the field. Well he may see a more than two marks fall and he may be required to run a blind retrieve over 40 yards. I don't consider a test where the dog is only going to run a 40 yd blind a test for a truly "seasoned" dog. Where do you guys want draw the line on an appropriate test for a seasoned dog? Regardless of how HRC started, the fact remains that most dogs running seasoned are between 1 and 2 years of age with at the most one hunting season under their belts. That may be only 4 or 5 hunts for a lot of folks. I just don't think it's a good test for a number of reasons, one of which if a safety issue. No matter how hard you try, you can not duplicate a day hunting at a hunt test. Wish you could, but it's not possible. I still contend that we should be testing marking and control at the seasoned level. I still believe that the most important skills a seasoned "hunting" retriever should have are the abililty to mark and handle.


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## Matt Miller (Apr 22, 2004)

Did you ever hear the saying: Train at the next highest level when preparing to run a test? I have and that is what I do. 

Matt


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

what's your HRC number thunderdog? you didn't post on that thread...-paul


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## Jason Zerrer (May 12, 2003)

What safety issue?



> No matter how hard you try, you can not duplicate a day hunting at a hunt test.


So let's not try. :roll: 

If someone is going...say goose hunting...with a seasoned level retriever and you are hunting a field where the potential for 150 plus yard blinds/marks are possible do you 

A) Leave the blinds at home because they would be a distraction to the dog

B) Knowing that your dog is not at the point of doing 150 yd blinds walk it out, or otherwise put it in a position to be successful at the level to which it is competent.

C) Not hunt at all because a situation might arise that the dog is unready for.


Just saying I still don't see how in the wide world of sports sitting next to a layout blind hinders marking and control.


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## meleagris (May 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> This is a stupid question for you HRC guys, but anyway. 8)
> 
> When you have a remote like Hookset wrote about and I'm thinking more than 15 yards away. Will the dogs follow your shotgun and see the marks. You can't have a marking test if the dogs don't see the birds. If there's no shot or call out in the field, will the dog be able to tell the angle of the shotgun and look out. At the very least you'd need a good high throw for those 100 yarders, no ground skimmers.
> 
> I've never done it so maybe the dogs pick it up easily. I don't know.


Howard:

I guess nobody wants to answer you, but it is a very good question. I have no doubt that the dogs were looking at the handlers--"how can they mark without their guns?????" This is my problem with the it's just like hunting thing----it's not just like hunting--it's still testing! It's testing where people can dress up and pretend they are hunting. The finest hunting retrievers I have ever hunted with, mark the birds as they come in--not off the gun. There's no way you can replicate that. I submit there could have been some fine hunting dogs that were blown away by the setup you were questioning because it was unfair to the dogs--as you stated you can't mark something you can't see!!

And as far as the layout blind goes, do whatever you think is best. To me you can always find some gimmick in the name of hunting that will "exclude a poor hunting dog". I just ask that folks keep in mind that people spend a lot of time and money preparing for and going to hunt tests. There are only so many hours in the day to train. What would you rather have them do--train for every concievable hunting setup in North America or train marking ability and handling. Do you really believe that a dog run in the layout blind setup is any better dog than the one run off a bucket or an AKC senior dog. In my mind it isn't. It's just one thing that it isn't trained for and yet you have needlessly dropped some dogs that might be better dogs because the were not trained for that particular gimick. And for Rick who thinks everyone should train for layout blinds---I hunt ducks 30+ days a year and have NEVER used a layout blind. I have no desire to or need to. Why should I have to train for some gimick just to make you feel like you're "really hunting". And finally from the standpoint of someone who has served as the hunt test/field test chairman more than a few times, the logistics of pulling off the layout blind thing sounds like a nightmare to me. 

John Brunjes
________
NEXIUM LAWSUIT SETTLEMENTS


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

hi Howard,

if a judge wants to set up a remote-sit in an HRC test and have it fair to the dogs,all they need to do is put the dog behind the handler 10-15 feet. now the dog can see the handler as he swings the gun onto the birds and the birds falling beyond. the dog is also out of the blast cone unless he leaves early.-paul


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

John-

I agree with a lot of what you're saying & I agree that these tests are just that. The very best days your dog has & more often the ones where nobody else (or just a couple of hunting buddies) see(s) your dog work, but you wouldn't trade that for all the ribbons in the world. You're very right about the dogs not needing to mark off the gun-they are looking skyward & instinctively marking the falls.

But-I do disagree that a good hunting dog has to be exposed to every last hunting prop or nuance of a hunt test scenario to do well. Some of the best dogs out there are just naturals who step up & just matter of factly get the job done. Someone else (Otey, I think) posted that the #1 requirement should be the wise use of bird placement & I agree with that 100%. If you need props to make up for what you lack in knowing how to set up a test that evaluates marking & control, than please don't judge.

That said-a solid hunting dog should be able to handle a boat, layout blind what have you because he knows his job to follow instructions & stay put & mark his birds.

M


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Miriam Wade said:


> .
> 
> That said-a solid hunting dog should be able to handle a boat, layout blind what have you because he knows his job to follow instructions & stay put & mark his birds.
> 
> M


There it is.


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

bump
________
Ford mtx transmission specifications


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

It seems to me that everybody is getting hung up on the prop when the real issue is control. It was stated that the blind was left open so that the dogs wouldn't be startled by all the movement. So what it really boils down to is this: can you sit your dog and expect him to stay there regardless of your position in relation to his? If you can't, your dog isn't steady. If your dog isn't steady, you have no business running seasoned. To me, this is the most common problem in hunting dogs as well as hunt test dogs. Too many dogs out there just are not steady. 

As to the comments about remotes in finished. Yes, in HRC we train our dogs to mark off the gun. That doesn't mean that the only way the dog can find a bird is if he's looking down the barrel! If the dog has hunting experience, he knows that the birds don't come from the gun and he will be watching the sky whether he's sitting next to the handler or at a remote location. Remotes are very useful in almost any area of the country and to me that is a tool that should be in any FINISHED dog's repertoire. I've also found it very useful to be able to send the dog from a remote location, recieve the bird where I'm standing, and then send the dog back to her spot, whether in a boat, a platform or on the bank. This is no big trick to teach. I have a 2-year-old that hasn't even run a finished test that can do this easily. Yes, I know. We are way behind the power curve. By the time she turned 2, I should have had her HRCH and MH on her. I guess I just take the stated intent of the program a little too seriously.
To me the point is that a dog that can run triples and blinds is not necessarily a hunting retriever. If all you want to do is test those abilities, there are programs out there where you can do just that.
But for *HUNTING *RETRIEVER CLUB tests, I think that making the setups as realistic as possible and using the "props" in an intelligent way to test a certain behavior or attribute makes perfect sense. 
This doesn't mean that I agree with a started test where the handler had to hold a goose shell on his head like a hat while handling the dog. I couldn't see the point. But like I said, intelligently using props like decoys(even mojos), boats, blinds (even layouts), dog stands, etc. is what makes the club what it is.
Last comment and I'm done. To all the bucket bashers: What's wrong with sitting on a bucket? I've done it bunches in the dove fields. And when I sit in the duck boat, I'm pretty much at the same level. To the dog, the only difference is sitting instead of standing. Is there a problem with sitting down while hunting? Have I inadvertently committed some sort of hunting faux pas? Can I expect to be hounded by the press? Will my mother have to cry on daytime TV because of my transgression? Will my hunting buddies turn on me if word gets out? No wait, they sit down from time to time themselves. I guess we must be what they call "slob hunters". I promise to write 500 times, "I will not sit on buckets, boxes, ammo cans, seats, hummocks, hammocks, stumps, deadfalls, cow pies, old tires, aardvarks, beaver dams, muskrat houses or chairs of any kind while hunting or handling a dog." Or maybe not.

Train. Don't complain.


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## meleagris (May 20, 2003)

Miriam Wade said:


> But-I do disagree that a good hunting dog has to be exposed to every last hunting prop or nuance of a hunt test scenario to do well. Some of the best dogs out there are just naturals who step up & just matter of factly get the job done. Someone else (Otey, I think) posted that the #1 requirement should be the wise use of bird placement & I agree with that 100%. If you need props to make up for what you lack in knowing how to set up a test that evaluates marking & control, than please don't judge.
> 
> That said-a solid hunting dog should be able to handle a boat, layout blind what have you because he knows his job to follow instructions & stay put & mark his birds.
> 
> M


Miriam:

I certainly see your point and I agree to some extent. Yes, dogs should be able to adapt to some extent---but should that adaptation come in a test (which is 100% different than hunting). Just thinking about some of the problems a layout blind if you haven't trained for it might cause:

1) rapidly sitting up --going forward. My guess is this might cause may dogs to jump forward as well potentially putting them in the blast cone. Some dogs are perfectly steady and this wouldn't be a problem--mine isn't (and many many others are not either) I'd be willing to bet he would jump in a test. Yes, I could train for this and solve this problem--but again my time is limited. I can not train for everything.

2) IMHO this is going to be a very difficult place to have the dog pivot and mark off the gun. I would think there are going to be huge advantages vs disadvantages for a dog that is right vs left sided healing (not to even bring up what happens if your dog jumps forward a little). For example if you have a right sided dog and the first mark is hard right. You're going to have to poke the gun across his/her nose and hope that you can "heal or pull their butt" to you forcing them to look right when your position hasn't changed. In hunting, you have real birds coming in to focus their attention before you shoot or a NAHRA of AKC test would have an attention geting call to focus their attention--which would relieve this problem.

3) every position you get in has a little different effect on the dog. the dog responds to you differently when you are laying down vs standing vs sitting on a bucket, vs on a platform in chest deep water beside you vs..... so many things to train for on top of concepts like marking and handling. Again we're taling about a seasoned dog. In many/most cases a ~1 year old dog. Sorry I just don't see that there isn't a better way.

I guess some of my problem with this goes back to a NAHRA test in Colorado a few years ago. The judges threw one of the marks in a fast moving mountain stream. Yes---it 100% replicated what a dog hunting there might face, but in the "land of flatness" I live in there was no way to train for that scenario. Basically anybody who was not from there was excluded from the test. Training is hard enough as it is. Don't punish the person who is willing to travel to another region to try a test by saying this is the way we hunt--you shoulda been prepared.

John
________
buttsex Webcams


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

Paul,

My HRC number is 10551. I am a member of two local HRC clubs and president of the local AKC hunt test club. I have trained 8 HRCH's. I've probably accumulated somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 HRC points. What's your point? I know what the HRC program is about. Just because I don't agree with what seems to be the majority here isn't going to change my mind about what I think is an appropriate seasoned test. I hope to see lots of lay-out blinds in seasoned tests now that everyone thinks it's a great idea.

Hey John,

Great posts and you echo my sentiments about the possible safety issues. People this is a seasoned test. Do whatever you want at finished, but these dogs are not finished dogs and shouldn't be expected to handle the same scenario a finished dog could. 

Joe Heffley
Yellowbank Retrievers


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## meleagris (May 20, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> Miriam Wade said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


Thanks Rick--very valuable contribution on your part!!!

M--my only comment here is we're not talking about a solid hunting dog---we're talking about a seasoned dog (I know what the book says but have you seen the dogs running in seasoned tests). These are by and large young inexperienced dogs--probably as a whole the least trained/least prepared of any second step dog in the dog games (which is GREAT!!!!!--I think it is wonderful that a new trainer, or someone just interested in having a hunting dog, or someone who doesn't have tons of time to train has a place to go--this is what makes HRC GREAT in my mind). HRC is great because yoou don't need a pro--it's for us--not just the very experienced or pros who have unlimited time. I kind see this argument as the same as the folks who think AKC Master needs to be tougher. What all this is proposing is making the Seasoned stake harder and if HRC as a whole wants to that--great let's do it--but a pair of judges deciding to do that just doesn't seem right to me.

John
________
VAPORIZER REVIEW


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## 2blackdogs (Apr 28, 2003)

Bill Davis
As you have seen from many of the responses, handlers thoughts on varies test setups can and will differ a great deal. It is impossable to set up a test that pleases everybody. Some people will pi$$ and moan no matter what you set up. It's to hard. It's to easys. You will hear it all. As a judge you need to be a bit thick skinned. Your job as a judge is not to make everybody feel all warm and fuzzy with your test. . Your responsability as a judge is to design a test that challenges the dog/handler team within the boundaries of rules for that catagory. Your use of a layout blind in seasoned is within those boundries. Is it fair? In my opinion it sure is. Will it cause some to belly ach and whine? See the first 10 pages and there is your answer. A dog that is ready to run seasoned isn't going to have much trouble with a layout blind. I proved that in training yesturday. We ran 4 seasoned dogs out of my layout blind in 2 different series. None of them had ever seen a layout before. Not 1 issue in regards to the layout came up. These were not advanced seasoned dogs ready to move up to finished. 2 of the dogs will be running their first seasoned test this spring. The other 2 have 2 passes each. One thing that was apparent was that they had an easier time following and marking off the gun barrell with the handler on their level. Granted there could be a handler that due to a physical problem may not be able to use a layout. In that situation you need to make some allowances for that team. Enjoy the judging experience.

2blackdogs


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Meleagris said:


> Rick Hall said:
> 
> 
> > Miriam Wade said:
> ...


You're quite welcome, John. And thank you for giving the point emphasis through repetition - not to mention giving me an opening to do so yet again!


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> Kevin, my little polls of Ohio and Illinios goose hunters are now running 25 to 4 _against_ your contention that layout blinds are not normal hunting equipment. Maybe you need to get out more.


I am forty five-years old, and have hunted waterfowl since I was old enough to walk and my Dad could take me with him. I have gotten out plenty. Might I suggest your poll is unscientific? Nahhh, it can't be that! :roll:


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Hunt'em Up said:


> Kevin, could you give me an example of some hunting props that are normal to you? Bucket, call, and blocks are a given. What else?


Here is essentially what I said before, and I stand by it -- If it is something that an average hunter can expect to encounter on an average day afield it is normal. Of course this is going to vary somewhat from region to region, but my reading of the rulebook alllows for that.

Layouts are growing in popularity, there is no doubt. But I do not think the average hunter expects to encounter a layout blind on an average hunt. Just my opinion. 8)


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Jason Z. said:


> Maybe we should use the Macks Prairie Wings or Cabelas as a guide.  :wink: Any piece of equipment with at least 2 pages dedicated to its sale is fair game at a hunt test...at the seasoned level. :wink:


Does that include women's lingerie and jewelry?


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## Jason Zerrer (May 12, 2003)

Yes, female handlers should be expected to wear the camo/lace nighty with duck call earrings. :lol: 




















Just kidding, they can wear the camo bikini if they want.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Jason Z. said:


> Yes, female handlers should be expected to wear the camo/lace nighty with duck call earrings. :lol: Just kidding, they can wear the camo bikini if they want.


In _my_ dreams! :wink:


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## Noah (Apr 6, 2003)

Rob

I think you proved your real point with this poll.
If it generates 12 pages of debate here...I can only imagine what it would do at a Preliminary Test. :twisted:


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## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

Thanks, Rick. It is unfortunate that it cost me a friend, but at least we got to hear everyone's point of view.
By the way, we found a "prospect" when house hunting today! I'll keep you posted.

Rob


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Kevin,

If people in your area are not in Pits, how do you field hunt for geese?


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*wow*

 RickF I am usually on my hands and knees crawling up a pond levee to hunt geese in Northern Kentucky. Before I started using dogs to retrieve them had to wait for wind to blow them to bank......LOL. Now I crawl up and shoot and then call dog off platform in truck to come get them. ........ saves all that time hoping for wind.......and am in process of teaching dog to crawl at heel...... That would be a typical scenerio for where I shoot geese and ducks....... any takers for a typical for area hunting conditions? LOL
This sure has been a LIVELY descussion.


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Yeah sure, sounds like a great walk-up scenario but how do you field hunt for geese? Where are you and where is your dog?


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*horse*

wow..... this horse sure does look beat to #*&# and back.


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## Jay Hinton (Feb 28, 2005)

OK, I'm new to this board, have lurked for a good while, for various reasons have never posted. Several of you will know me from other boards. However, this thread led me to action. Without going through each and every of the last 12 pages, and as a person who is undergoing the process to become a judge of HRC events, I would have to say that an open layout blind with the handler having the option of sitting, or kneeling should not be an obstacle to a seasoned dog. In any state or locale. Layout blinds don't have to be used just for goose hunting, they come in handy for hunting bluebills here on the NC coast, just as they would in SC, or anywhere in the SE. I'm sure others have posted the same thoughts already, just had to jump in. 

-Jay


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*RickF*

 easy geese don't come into crops of TOBACCO which is main crop up here


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob New said:


> It is unfortunate that it cost me a friend, but at least we got to hear everyone's point of view.


Am I the only one that is bothered by the fact that a friendship was affected by something as unimportant as a layout blind at a dog game??

Buck


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

RickF said:


> If people in your area are not in Pits, how do you field hunt for geese?


There are lots and lots of ways -- hiding in the adjacent cover is most common. Whatever will work.

I think layouts would be much more effective. But that does not make them normal -- yet.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Kevin - Of course my little "for snorts and giggles" poll of goose hunters from your state and Ohio isn't "scientific". But it's at least more so than your single opinion, which it's running 5 to 1 against. 

Rick and Kevin - Here's a quote from the only respondent that expanded on his reason for not thinking layouts normal equipment for a reason other than along the lines of "We just _lay_ under tarps."



> "In my opinion layout blinds are all but excluded as an option in central IL.
> 
> Its been my experience that you're lucky to snag a LEASE on a field...let alone knock on a door and have someone allow freelance hunting.
> 
> Hence pits are the norm...which sucks in my opinion. Mobility would be a good thing."


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## LJM4th (Apr 25, 2003)

*Grandfathered Judge*

While I totally agree that a seasoned dog should be able to negotiate a layout blind, and that HRC needs to get back to more true to life hunting situations there is more to be considered here. The hunt chairman is trying to put on a quality prelim that everyone remembers and is wanting to come back to next year. He may also agree with me about seasoned test secarios. The fact is, I as well as many other local members have never seen this sort of set up in our area and that the hunt chairman does not want to test the waters at the prelim, he is soley responsilble for. What is being overlooked here is the fact that being asked to "Grandfather" is a privalage and a honor and one should respect the wishes of the hunt chaiman who has allowed him the opportunity to bypass all of the steps necassary to get to that level. I would think that as a grandfathered judge one would be thankful for the opportunity and listen to his co-judge and try to avoid controversey. Stay under the radar. There should be no loss of frienships over something so trivial. Good debate should be healthy debate. This was never intended to make enemies but was inteded to get a feel for what the hunt test folks opinions were. Now that we know they vary, lets agree to disagree and get on with testing dogs.[/b]


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

LJM4th "The fact is, I as well as many other local members have never seen this sort of set up in our area" 

I must disagree with this statement.. I have run HT in Ohio and in MI with Goose Chairs in seasoned....


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## Rob New (Jan 14, 2003)

Holy Cow! 
The reason this poll was created was to get opinions from HRC'ers from across the region as well as across the country. We wanted to see if the poll could tell us whether or not these things would cause controversy at a prelim. I didn't say that in my original post, because I didn't see the need for it. I saw no need to mention names of individuals or groups. 

Well, not only did we discover that it caused controversy, but we also realized that it has ended friendships, and turned them into professional acquaintances. It is unfortunate, but we must move on. I have laid awake at night worrying about these issues for nearly a week. I'm a volunteer and have devoted countless hours and nearly $1000 of my own personal money to get this club off the ground. I don't want a pat on the back. I just want to make sure everyone realizes this I have very good intentions for everyone involved.

We, the HT Committee, just want to do the right things for our members, our judges, the handlers who pay hard-earned money to run our test, but most importantly to the Parent Organization, which is HRC, Inc.

I will be requesting this thread be locked by the site administrators to avoid things being said that will further stretch the divide among us all. As I said, this issue and its ensuing debate has already cost a 2 year friendship. This issue, my friends, is simply not worth it! 

Respectfully,

Rob New


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

NO hard feelings from this corner.

Reasonable people can disagree about these things.

In my opinion.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

While I've had some fun with this thread, and poked poor Kevin and others a bit, for which I apologise if my manner's been seen as other than good spirited, it's obviously an important discussion. 

Not a dog-gone thing will change here and now as a result of it, but _if_ the HRC is drifting from its intent, that's an issue that shouldn't be swept under the carpet. For all I know, there may not be enough people interested in seeing the HRC remain focused on developing better _hunting_ dogs to keep it afloat. Perhaps the game has, like some before it, become its own end, in which case the gamers may well have the desire and clout to make it a primarily marking and handling game.

But if the HRC is to remain the hunter's game and helper, I think it a very good thing to compare ourselves to the founders' stated philosphy and the rules they set to help us stay true to it.


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

well,

60% would be in favor.

28% don't put much value on a seasoned title

And the nay sayers, my impression is that they don't hunt.


just my opinion,


Rick Fanella


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2005)

Rob,

It's regretful that friendships have been severed over this matter. I for one, apologize if anything I wrote contributed to this, although I suspect it didn't. I wish you the best in reconciliation. 

Just because I disagree with Kevin on this matter, doesn't mean I don't respect him, his dawgs, or his philosophy. Quite the opposite. I think it's healthy and appropriate to discuss these types of issues as they can shape the path HRC takes in coming years. 

My last post...

Good Luck Rob.

-CZ


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

I really don't think the thread should be closed... The different opinons should be a welcome part of any good thread. Maybe in the long run people will learn from it and try to improve things in the future. How many people that have read this thread starting wondering if they should be training with a Layout to be prepaired for one.. Or maybe try different things in training instead of the ole bucket on the shore or in the field.. IMO we need to stop thinking about the age of the dog running Seasoned and Finished and get them ready to run the test that may, with in reason, be presented to them. Heck I am running a 15 month old that has only ran two HT previously in Finished come May. Am I going to worry that a Layout blind or a Goose Chair will part of the set up. NO... Am I worried that he may fail because they have one.. No, because I like to train with things that I may see in a HT or the way I hunt.. Am I worried that he may be an idiot that day... Yes, he is a dog. Do I expect it.... NO

I understand Robs point of view, that this is a Prlim Test and that he wants to run a straight forwrd test and I respect that and that is what my Co- Judge and I plan on doing. So come join us and run Seasoned and enjoy a good down to earth test.. I promise you that!!!!


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## LJM4th (Apr 25, 2003)

*Healthy Debate*

Well, when it is all said and done, we find that most of us on here feel the same way about HRC. Bill it looks like we may even all agree on the fact that these sort of scenarios should start being used more, if we are going to be true to testing actual hunting situations. Most importantly we agree that this prelim needs to go off without a hitch, and leave a good impression on the minds of those attending. With that said, I am going to get my Finisher out of storage and start training. My dog doesn't mind it, but I hate shooting out of it. Since no one will know how bad I shoot out of it with poppers it will be ok.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Rick Hall, battling polls! My results differ -- http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=322991


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Oh, yeh??? Well, take this http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2092 

and this http://www.waterfowler.com/inportal...045-81173-1-1-1:n-2-1-:s-3:m-1-:img-5--1-1-1-


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*well here is Pin Oak HRC*

 Here are pics from Pin Oak Hrc HT last weekend in SEASONED. There are several pics of Omar Driskoll running a dog. Isn't he one of FOUNDERS of HRC. Was in Rice field and only PROPs I see are a WHITE bucket and a dog platform at water level. Seems like if it wasn't what the founding fathers of HRC was trying to accomplish it would have been brought up there. Also check out handlers clothing . J Paul Jackson was wearing a Black shirt, Black GLOVES and blue jeans. Omar was in FULL CAMO. A picture is worth a THOUSAND words....  http://www.searcysports.com/events.htm


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

You pizzers and moaners would have really cried this weekend when we had a out of order flier in finished, seasoned water was run in flooded timber off a dog stand. 

Bring On The Lay Out put out about 75 snow rags use WHITE farm ducks and toss em in the middle, play a Snow goose tape FULL VOLUME, if one is handicapped and can't lay in the blind put a bucket in there for him/her the dang "prop" don't make or break the test JUST JUDGE ACCORDINGLY
on all accounts

I ran a seasoned test with a mojo in the dekes NOT one dog paid attention to it,

Rob sorry you lost your friend over such petty crap as a layout blind 
I would have enjoyed the test pass or fail, if the LOB caused the problem then guess what? I'll go home and train out of mine


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*another thing........*

 There is a link that Dman posted on the Fuge and I stole and am gonna post here shows all level Stared, Seasoned, and Finished at Pin Oak.... From all reports I have been able to gather was considered a GOOD HT overall. In my other post I mentioner Omar, after lookig a bunch more Pics saw National Past V.P. Of Hrc Larry Mc Murtry. Again stressing my point about INTENT. 
http://www.searcysports.com/events.htm


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

Otey,

The truth be told.....The problem is I don't train or hunt with a white bucket and I am fearful my dog will become alarmed and the test may not truly reflect my dogs abilities with such a 'prop' present :shock: :wink: 


I think we all know the proverbial white bucket has unfortunately become commonplace. Personally, I think it is a shame to see such. With that said, it is just as unfortunate to see a situation when someone is clearly acting within the guidelines of the rulebook, putting on a "licensed hunt" that does simualte a day afield and be condemned for such. I can tell you this Otey, anytime I am responsible for a Licensed Hunt, I will do my best to provide the judges with the ability to respond in the affirmative to the question "Would I hunt like this?". My efforts will be directed to functional property and adequate equipment.

Best,

Rick Fanella


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

BIG DOG said:


> You pizzers and moaners. . . .


Who are you talking about? Can you name names?

For me, I follow a very simple dictum taught to me years ago -- _test and trial one level below where you are training._ My Seasoned dogs have already seen everything I anticipate in finished, including a layout. We hunt over mojos, and with goose flags and goose kites.

My personaly situation is not the point. The question is the fairness of a judge expecting Seasoned dogs to have seen it.

What I want to avoid are "trick tests," particularly in Seasoned. I assume we can all agree on that. I think throwing props at dogs who under normal circumstances would not have seen them, borders on a trick test. Several of you appear to disagree.

Some of you argue that my logic removes us away from the true meaning of the HRC philosophy. Of course not. Because I argue that a _Finished_ dog should be able to handle all props.

We all see differences between the testing levels regarding difficulty. And I assume we all see differences between the testing levels regarding most concepts. But where I see differences between _all_ the testing levels regarding the concept of props, some of you only see differences between Started and Seasoned/Finished.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*Rick F*

 Rick I use a camo bucket when I train. I am old school from back in my days drag racing........ RUN WHAT YA BRUNG.........Go to Test , go to line, run dogs , pass or fail and grin about it and thank judges.... 

Since I have had my heart surgery I realized HT passes and fails are NOT a life or death situation and I plan on at every one having as much fun and enjoyment I can because of for these BEAUTIFUL INTELLIGENT dogs


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

bump got 100 now 200


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Kevin,

how do you use flags and kites goose hunting if you're not laying out or in a pit?

i have no idea how i'd try.......-paul


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*Re: well here is Pin Oak HRC*



Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> J Paul Jackson was wearing a Black shirt, Black GLOVES and blue jeans. Omar was in FULL CAMO. A picture is worth a THOUSAND words...


What do you hunt while wearing a Black shirt and Blue jeans? we had a less than stellar year hunting rice fields.... just wondering if I'm doing something wrong???


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

according to the latest Judges Corner in the HRC mag, if you're at an HRC hunt, you don't if you're dressed like that.

there was quite a bit of the column devoted to proper dress of handlers, judges and workers.

as far as that outfit goes, the only scenario i can come up with is a body booting hunt for cormorants...............-paul :roll:


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*MR Paul Young*

 did you see those grounds used in Finished ?
Looked like a golf course.....LOL Think Polock can get one for his next NFRA event to make up for cover last year.....LOL


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2005)

AmiableLabs said:


> Rick Hall, battling polls! My results differ -- h


You asked; On your average waterfowl hunt is it normal for you to hunt from a layout-type blind?

Now go back and ask those same individuals if in a season of hunting did they hunt out of a "layout blind" at least once. I'd be willing to wager you'll get a different result. 

In the end aren't the judges supposed to put together a resonable interpretation of a hunt for the region it's taking place in. 

I know I used by final approach atleast twice while I was down in Ohio and I think once we hunted out of a boat and another time we were just on the shore of a river. 

This year I hunted in 6 states; MI, IN, OH, WI, IL, TN, and two Canadian provinces ON, Manitoba and we hunted from pits, boats, blinds, and final approaches. My buddies dog and My dog hunted alot out of a hide-a-pooch; remote sit for the whole hunt enless released -and also right in the blind with me, out of a boat with a blind and without, in normal duck blinds and some other stuff that I probably don't remember - I even sat in my chair a couple of times with him sitting right next to me. These are just "Typical" situations anyone that actually gets out and hunts would anticipate putting their dog in so why shouldn't a judge put together a hunt and use a final approach or a finisher ?

If I were a judge for a inaguaral hunt I might want to just stick with the straight forward basics to make sure everyone wants to come back; for the clubs behalf but I sure wouldn't be against using one if the right sinario presented it's self at some point in time. A judge can never set up a real hunt no matter what he does but he can do his best to try and imitate one to the best of his ability

My dog is no super retriever by any stretch of the imagination but I did manage to get him HR'd in September this past year. I'm moving onto finished this next week at Deer River's hunt test, if a judge throws something at my dog he hasn't seen we'll roll with it and do our best. You can bet if we don't pass though because I didn't train for a certain situation I'll be doing it soon and I WON'T BE ROLLING THE JUDGE OVER ON THE INTERNET BUS ! 

Bryan


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

paul young said:


> Kevin, how do you use flags and kites goose hunting if you're not laying out or in a pit?


I believe it was on this thread that I already posted we hunt from pits.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

my mistake. i thought you said you wetre hunting edges.  -paul


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

BTG-Ducky said:


> You asked; On your average waterfowl hunt is it normal for you to hunt from a layout-type blind? Now go back and ask those same individuals if in a season of hunting did they hunt out of a "layout blind" at least once. I'd be willing to wager you'll get a different result.


Hi Bryan.

Yup, I'd bet I would get a different result. I'd probably also get a different result if I asked how many have hunted from a layout at least once in their life? But have you been reading ALL the messages on the thread? That would be beside the point.

The question is -- is a layout blind a normal piece of hunting equipment that an average hunter can expect to encounter on a normal day afield. "Once a season" isn't your average day afield, that is only "once a season." :? 

Give me 51% of the time for the average Joe, then I'll concede it is a normal piece of hunting equipment. That would be reasonable.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

paul young said:


> my mistake. i thought you said you wetre hunting edges.  -paul


I said that too, in response to what we do without pits or layouts.

For the record, for the last four years our spot has been pit blinds on state land. When we are invited out with friends, their spot is on private land from edges.

I don't know of anyone who uses layouts. But not only as a retriever enthusiast, but also as a DU Committee man, in the circles I run I am sure I must know several people who do! But it has just never come up.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

the correct way to set up the poll is to place it on the goose hunter's forum and ask how many used them .

then have a second poll that asks who used them more than 5 times this past season.

Kevin, they are everywhere! ask cabela's how many they have sold in the last 3 years. i don't know a serious goose hunter who doesn't have one in this area, and our fields are really small by midwest standards. you can only shoot them from the edges in the right wind, and even then, your shots will be pretty long.-paul


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

paul young said:


> the correct way to set up the poll is to place it on the goose hunter's forum and ask how many used them .


A better way might be to just ask the people in our clubs.

"Say you Seasoned dog owner do you hunt from a layout? Have you introduced that equipment to your dog? 

"What about motion decoys on water? How would it be for your Seasoned dog to have a decoy splashing around in the water when the birds are thrown? What, you haven't introduced your dog to 'in the water motion decoys' yet? You'd better! Cabelas sells a ton of them! And it is only a matter of time a Seasoned judge is going to want to use one of those too."

:wink: :wink: :wink:


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

Kevin according to the poll 37% are somewhat against it

If you snow goose hunt in Ar, Tx, La chances are since you'll be hunting a wheat field and no pits are to be found a layout is the most logical answer, I've already mentioned i ran a Seasoned test w/ a mojo BIG FRIGG'N DEAL :roll: 

On the "splashers" I use a mallard machine and you can bet my dogs will see it in training they also go for boat rides, dog stand retrieves ANYTHING that they can see hunting I try to expose them to.

You guys (not you personally) need to "trust" your dog.


You Judges, just judge the test like a Seasoned Test should be judged is all. Mistakes at that level are going to happen that's why it's Seasoned NOT Finished 

Me and dukdawgn may not see eye to eye on everything, but if they take in to consideration they ARE Seasoned dogs like he does you will be judged fairly :wink: 
BTW... Josh are stepping up to Finished Judging
I ran under Ronnie Saturday water was rice fields, land was newly planted wheat field w/ a shoy flyer as the 1st bird down 
I handled on 1 mark (2nd bird) but we got through


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

*well........*

is dukdawgn Ronnie Harwell? If he is, He and Glen Dye could set up a great Finished HT in a TURNIP patch.......  The only problem with them is they get me laughing on way to line. Best 2 judges I have ever run under hands down


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Kev,

i don't know how it took me this long for me to see the light, but you have finally convinced me i don't know squat about goose hunting, dog training or the HRC rulebook. UNCLE! :roll: -paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, this has been a good use of bandwidth, in my opinion.

The bottom line: If you are looking to avoid controversy as a prelim club, or as an apprentice judge, you can probably choose to leave the layout blind aside for a seasoned test.

If you are looking to truly test reasonable marks and blinds, in accordance with Seasoned HRC rulebook, regulation stuff, a layout blind could certainly be considered.

Regarding obesity, or other mobility issues, there are ways around this, even IF the established judges, with an established club, choose to actually set up a realistic field hunt! 

Brother Paul, I'm sorry that I did not respond to your earlier cry for help to get logged on to the "new" RTF. I'm glad you are back.

HRC tests should properly evaluate appropriately classed retrievers at all levels. I'm here to say that a glorified lounge chair is equally acceptable to a white 5 gallon pickle bucket for Seasoned or Finished. If it's not, we got a problem.....RIGHT OMAR?!!!!! 8) :wink: 

Chris


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## dukdawgn (Apr 22, 2003)

*ah*

well said, Chris.

BigDog,
My lil black dog starts running this spring. I'm looking forward to running her, so I wont be judging quite as much for a while. 

Otey,
Nope, I'm not Ronnie, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Who cares how many people use lay outs or what part of the country they are used in most. They are hunting equipment that you MAY encounter in a given hunting situation. I cannot tell you how many goose hunts I have seen in hunt test in Florida, and for those of you that don?t already know, there aint many geese in Florida. In fact I would venture that a good deal of the water fowling done here is different from most of the country due to our conditions (ever duck hunt in shorts in Arkansas?).
If I only trained my dogs based on the way we hunt here, they would run into some ?unfamiliar? hunting equipment at every test we go to. I have so much hunting equipment that I will NEVER use in the field hunting (goose decoys, pheasant calls??) just so the dogs get a look at them.
Stop complaining, get a Cabalas catalog, do some shopping, and start training.


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## RickF (Jan 3, 2003)

BBG,

The problem is that people have gotten used to the same old stuff that has been going on for a few years and that has become the norm. 

Trouble is, probably, lack of leadership and enforcement from the regional representatives when they give approval to a test that does not use a duckblind or hide of sorts to conceal the hunter, at the very least. The rulebook clearly states that duckblinds and typical hunting equipment will be used. Now, there may be many reasons for this to include lack of desired eq. on behalf of the club or restriction of cutting live vegetation at the test site. For whatever reason, HRC is in a rut of sorts. 

I personally believe this has been and is being recognized as a problem and measures are being taken by individual clubs to get back to our roots. Unfortunately with change comes some resistance. But as long as we have our rulebook, and we are acting clearly within it, progress can be made.

good testing,

Rick Fanella


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Rick
You hit it....


> The problem is that people


The problem is that people love to make excuses and complain. I also agree that HRC is in a rut of sorts, but there are a lot of people out there that are trying to put the realism back into HRC.


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## Noah (Apr 6, 2003)

Badbullgator said:


> there are a lot of people out there that are trying to put the realism back into HRC.


I disagree...I have yet to see a test where the first marks flare cause you are hollerin sit..sit..sit.....the next are cupped and committed, but you don't shoot cause you are clearin the mud out of your gun barrel cause you tripped getting out of the blind, cause you got too many clothes on...you empty your gun and nothing falls on the next pass... but you get lucky on the fourth and send your dog on 2 blinds cause he couldn't see anything!
:lol:


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## blackdi (Mar 12, 2003)

Rick F & BadBullGator<<<<< I think that it is very well put! In the rule book there is a set of guide line that should be followed. If your dog is not trained for all of that, it shows your what the handler and dog has got to work on. I voted YES for REALISM, Thanks for something to hopefully open the eye's. So that club's can put the hunt back into the HRC.


Terry


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## Jason Zerrer (May 12, 2003)

So Illinois is just a little behind in goose hunting tactics.

Why do all of the trees on the Missouri side of the Mississippi river lean toward Illinois?


Because Illiniois sucks. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Lord, I apologize. I'm a Missourian at heart and soon to be in the flesh and couldn't resist. :wink:


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm just surprised to learn that it's abnormal to eat at Micky D's because 51% of the population doesn't eat 51% of their meals there.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

paul young said:


> Kev,i don't know how it took me this long for me to see the light, but you have finally convinced me i don't know squat about goose hunting, dog training or the HRC rulebook. UNCLE! :roll: -paul


Lighten up, friend. We are just having fun here. 8) 

Too many people have said too many good things about your judging for me to even insinuate such a thing, so I never would.


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