# The Good, Bad, and Ugly of Internet Training



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

I've been real busy training my dogs and horses lately but every once and awhile visit here to view the latest in the RTF world. Frankly, it's been pretty discouraging as I repeatedly read about the same problems that have ocurred for ages and yet have been solved by many though various posts, DVDs, books, workshops and more over and over. How discouraging is that!!!

But, one thing I have noticed is the demise of the experienced trianer here with a proven track record. Few remain. That should be a concern to all of those who daily view RTF.

Tonite, I quickly read for the first time a thread about "All-Age Water Blinds".

Go find it and read it. If this isn't an example of the Good, Bad, and the Ugly of Internet Training, I don't know what is. The good was the chance to discuss some bonafide water blinds. The Bad was the instant "holier than thou" attitudes about the quality of the blinds and the Ugly was the age-old feuds amongst various protagonists. Several "name trainers" (with proven expertise) offered their opinions and I truly wonder why they persist. Others with no proven expertise also offered their opinions *to which they are truly also entitled*. But, it was hard to distinguish which were which!!!!

Recently Chris requested "Don't be Mean".

*Good for him!.* 

But frankly, it seems we have to go way beyond that. 

*Does any body care about the dogs and trying to improve them in a fair and effective means? *

*Does anybody care about about trying to become a better trainer and handler?*

*Does anybody care about respecting our fellow passionate soulmates?*

If so why do threads like that occur?

_*Okay, vent over!!!*_

_*-back to planning how to better my dogs and how I train and handle them!!*_

*I hope you will also!!!!!*

*Cheers?*


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

Well said!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks very much Dennis.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

Well done, and thanks to all who persist.


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree. Lately I feel like I have to weed through five pounds of chaff to get a couple of grains of wheat.

There's way too much gobbledygook, nonsensical posts, and questions that could be answered by a simple search. There's a lot of new people on here lately that would be better served by more reading and less posting. If you've been on here a week and have 100 posts, that's about 90 too many!

I want to hear from people who know what they're talking about. I'm paying to hear the teacher speak, not the peanut gallery. Just because you can post doesn't mean you should.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

That reminds me of a super-Newb that has popped up VERY RECENTLY. Asking a question that someone that has ever house-broken a cat might know, then makes insults or attitude after someone responds. Amazingly has more posts in the first month than some have in a year. I'm usually not a newbie basher...because I am not that far from new and know it. Even sometimes post to get others thoughts, just to see if I have a resonable thought. KNOW YOUR ROLE!!!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

I thought for a forum filled with folks who’s #1 common interest is ‘Retrievers’ there would be less animosity in the training thread. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you didn’t get your pup from a ‘Reputable’(Definitions vary) Breeder, who’s entire pedigree had damn sure better have been Health Certified in EVERY category, and who’s Sire Bloodline better be filled with FT Champion Blood and who’s Dam side better have HT Blood at a minimum, and you better be putting your pup through Hillman’s Puppy and Lardy, Graham or Farmer or all three simultaneously or you might as well not even OWN a retriever and give up now. You stand no chance. Lol…kinda… Nothing against those programs, they are ALL great in their own way and I wish I could run one dog per program just to see what the difference might be. 

Seriously though I’ve learned some here and there are some very helpful folks here too. Sadly enough the MOST help I’ve gotten has been via PM b/c most of them aren’t scared to post their suggestions in public, they just don’t feel like playing the childish EGO Urinary Volume contest with every loudmouth jack-ass on the board who will probably take issue with the advice b/c their favorite Retriever Training Super hero’s program doesn’t do it that way.

Like the hate on Richard Wolters. Seriously? Every Duck Dog I’ve seen growing up was raised on WaterDog. These dogs retrieved birds to hand and held steady before doing so. They slammed down on the sit whistle and took cast for blinds. All their trainers ever had was ONE BOOK with Black & White photos. So what’s so freaking bad about the book? No it’s not perfect and things have changed to make it easier. I just think its silly how some folks speak about that book like it hasn’t trained thousands and thousands of GOOD Duck Dogs. Dennis you even told me in an e-mail that you can’t/won’t ruin a DUCK Dog using WaterDog but that there are now more complete programs out there for sure. Seems logical enough to me. Will a Dog trained using only Water Dog win anyone a Championship? Maybe, Doubtful, but the people buying and using that book don’t give a hoot about championships lol. They care about their Retriever bringing their fallen game to their hand. Water Dog accomplishes that mission. Of course it’s not the BEST program out there, but it’s still a program _worthy_ of using. I've seen the snickering on this forum towards those who recommend Water Dog. Sad really.

_Worth_. That brings me to my next point. I think that term has a lot to do with attitudes in our generation today. People are obsessed with having to have the absolute BEST in everything. If they feel they’ve got it, the Ego-Troll will then damn you to hell for not doing or having the same.

Anyway I hung around for a while starting last year and didn’t make an account until I got my pup. I’m glad to be here and will continue to share my opinion and _limited experience_ in hopes of being schooled up by some of these vets. I mean how the heck can I learn if I don’t throw out there what I THINK I know right. 

The #1 leading cause of death for discussion boards is Ego-Trolls. I think there’s enough experienced retriever veteran folks here to squash all that crap.

Semper Fi & Cheers

EDIT - I never understand why people care about post count. So what if someone has more post and is more talkative on a DISCUSSION forum?


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

If you post 112 posts in less than 30 days, maybe you should do a little research instead of lookin for a hand out!!!!!!!!!! Kinda like people that bitch because they had a bad season but dont want to scout the land they have to hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Rob Paye said:


> If you post 112 posts in less than 30 days, maybe you should do a little research instead of lookin for a hand out!!!!!!!!!! Kinda like people that bitch because they had a bad season but dont want to scout the land they have to hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
There's the spirit! ...wow...


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

War Hammer said:


> I thought for a forum filled with folks who’s #1 common interest is ‘Retrievers’ there would be less animosity in the training thread. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> If you didn’t get your pup from a ‘Reputable’(Definitions vary) Breeder, who’s entire pedigree had damn sure better have been Health Certified in EVERY category, and who’s Sire Bloodline better be filled with FT Champion Blood and who’s Dam side better have HT Blood at a minimum, and you better be putting your pup through Hillman’s Puppy and Lardy, Graham or Farmer or all three simultaneously or you might as well not even OWN a retriever and give up now. You stand no chance. Lol…kinda… Nothing against those programs, they are ALL great in their own way and I wish I could run one dog per program just to see what the difference might be.
> 
> ...


I could kiss you.


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

MOST of us put our SPIRIT into our dogs, not the internet! Have a great life!!!!!


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> I could kiss you.


I feel sorry for you and your dog.


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

Rob Paye said:


> I feel sorry for you and your dog.


That's nice. You affect my life, how?

Oh wait, you *don't*.


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

Just stating a fact, Look at ALL of your posts from the last two months. I think you and war tacker should HOOK UP!!!!!


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

Rob Paye said:


> Just stating a fact, Look at ALL of your posts from the last two months. I think you and war tacker should HOOK UP!!!!!



Aww, that's so sweet of you to be thinking about my love life! You're such a generous person especially since you never cross my mind at all.


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Make that ten pounds of chaff...


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Well Dennis, you tried.

Janet


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Post numbers make no difference and some people who only have an iPhone can't use the search bar at the top. I may be new here on my post but have been coming here for close to 8 years do not a newbie per se


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

It amazes me when members here continue the personal insults, bad mouthing, poor attitudes and post on threads where Chris or other members such as Dennis have tried to point out that comments like those should not be a part of RTF.

Where is the disconnect????? Some people need to act like adults and not like children that should be sent to their rooms for a time out or, better yet, a good old time spanking!

Please, enough already.


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

Rob, your signature line reads



> This isn't a social event!!! Get a dog on the line!!


A trial/test may not be a social event, but a forum IS.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2012)

I don't really see the kid's in the kiddy pool being a problem. If they want to dip their toe in the deep end and get bonked on the head for being in the wrong pool,well we deserve it. The heavy weight's swimming in the adult end trying to drown one another set's a bad example for the sport in general.
It's kinda like watching your parent's get in a fight when you were a little kid. You really don't care who win's the fight you just want it to end. They are both role model's to you and should set a better example.
It would be nice to see the life guard's take a stroll around the adult pool once in awhile so we all don't drown! Remember that the kid's are the future! So please lead by example so we all learn to swim someday.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Dennis thanks. I care about all the things you mentioned: especially learning to improve as a trainer and improving my dogs. I subject myself to having lots of my training reviewed by others. Over the last year I have learned which people are experienced and whose advice to heed and whose to take with the grain of salt. You are on the top of my list as being helpful to me. 

I would name some of the others but would miss some and embarass myself. So thanks Dennis and to the other helpful reviewers of my videos.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Dennis thanks. I care about all the things you mentioned: especially learning to improve as a trainer and improving my dogs. I subject myself to having lots of my training reviewed by others. Over the last year I have learned which people are experienced and whose advice to heed and whose to take with the grain of salt. You are on the top of my list as being helpful to me.
> 
> I would name some of the others but would miss some and embarass myself. So thanks Dennis and to the other helpful reviewers of my videos.


 
I know I've learned from your post and pm's. I think you should have a Youtube channel. Photobucket doesn't work for me at work. lol


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## splashdash (Aug 1, 2007)

Thank you Dennis. The aforementioned thread is a perfect example of why I utilize this forum less and less. Often the threads which interest me the most become trashed by, X, or multiple X's, and frankly I find it disheartening enough that I often just check classifieds. It's sad.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Dennis thanks. I care about all the things you mentioned: especially learning to improve as a trainer and improving my dogs. I subject myself to having lots of my training reviewed by others. Over the last year I have learned which people are experienced and whose advice to heed and whose to take with the grain of salt. You are on the top of my list as being helpful to me.
> 
> I would name some of the others but would miss some and embarass myself. So thanks Dennis and to the other helpful reviewers of my videos.


I also love your posts and videos. I learned a lot from them! 
Actions speak louder than words. You can see change in all of your videos and you can tell you take advice seriously and try.


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

splashdash said:


> Thank you Dennis. The aforementioned thread is a perfect example of why I utilize this forum less and less. Often the threads which interest me the most become trashed by, X, or multiple X's, and frankly I find it disheartening enough that I often just check classifieds. It's sad.



Couldn't agree more! 
The thread in question could have formed the basis of an excellent discussion on water blinds leading to further discussion on all aspects concerning WB's...what's reasonable,how to approach,pitfalls,corridors,keyholes,multiple factors etc,etc.
Instead it becomes the usual put down scenario followed by comments with no substance as well as comments from the 'trashers'.
No wonder we have have folks who avoid these threads.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Dennis, with all due respect to you why didn't you offer your expertise to the thread in question? You garner a huge amount of respect around here, I wish you would use it more. Instead of griping about the problems that have existed as long as I can remember, do something to change it. We still don't know for sure if that is even an AA blind as the title claims or just a Qual blind as Mel suggested.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

sandyg said:


> I agree. Lately I feel like I have to weed through five pounds of chaff to get a couple of grains of wheat.
> 
> There's way too much gobbledygook, nonsensical posts, and questions that could be answered by a simple search.


This has always been and will always be the way it is around here. It has been stated that this place should be viewed as more of a tailgate at a trial, not a training session. I agree with that. If all we did was talk about training it would be a boring place. All the GDG gives friends a place to share and get to know each other. 



sandyg said:


> I want to hear from people who know what they're talking about. I'm paying to hear the teacher speak, not the peanut gallery. Just because you can post doesn't mean you should.


You're paying?


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> If you didn’t get your pup from a ‘Reputable’(Definitions vary) Breeder, who’s entire pedigree had damn sure better have been Health Certified in EVERY category, and who’s Sire Bloodline better be filled with FT Champion Blood and who’s Dam side better have HT Blood at a minimum, and you better be putting your pup through Hillman’s Puppy and Lardy, Graham or Farmer or all three simultaneously or you might as well not even OWN a retriever and give up now. You stand no chance. Lol…kinda… Nothing against those programs, they are ALL great in their own way and I wish I could run one dog per program just to see what the difference might be.
> 
> Like the hate on Richard Wolters. Seriously? Every Duck Dog I’ve seen growing up was raised on WaterDog. These dogs retrieved birds to hand and held steady before doing so. They slammed down on the sit whistle and took cast for blinds. All their trainers ever had was ONE BOOK with Black & White photos. So what’s so freaking bad about the book? No it’s not perfect and things have changed to make it easier. I just think its silly how some folks speak about that book like it hasn’t trained thousands and thousands of GOOD Duck Dogs. Dennis you even told me in an e-mail that you can’t/won’t ruin a DUCK Dog using WaterDog but that there are now more complete programs out there for sure. Seems logical enough to me. Will a Dog trained using only Water Dog win anyone a Championship? Maybe, Doubtful, but the people buying and using that book don’t give a hoot about championships lol. They care about their Retriever bringing their fallen game to their hand. Water Dog accomplishes that mission. Of course it’s not the BEST program out there, but it’s still a program _worthy_ of using. I've seen the snickering on this forum towards those who recommend Water Dog. Sad really.


If this is what you really think about this place, you have missed out completely and have been paying attention to the wrong people. Most of what you say here couldn't be further from the truth.



War Hammer said:


> EDIT - I never understand why people care about post count. So what if someone has more post and is more talkative on a DISCUSSION forum?


It's usually not really about post count as much as what those posts contain. There are a lot of nuances each individual forum contains and if someone doesn't take the time to figure those out before bringing one to another they can really come across in the wrong way. The worst is the new guy that asks for advise then poopoos that advise he's given and it happens all the time.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

War Hammer said:


> I know I've learned from your post and pm's. I think you should have a Youtube channel. Photobucket doesn't work for me at work. lol


Uh, he does have his own Youtube channel....with a ton of videos posted there.

I figured you'd have known that if you watched one of his videos.

Not trying to be rude or cause a problem but...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

achiro said:


> This has always been and will always be the way it is around here. It has been stated that this place should be viewed as more of a tailgate at a trial, not a training session. I agree with that. If all we did was talk about training it would be a boring place. All the GDG gives friends a place to share and get to know each other.


and he nails it! 
yet we should be mindful to only type, what we would say face to face. For a few, that would be quite a task, I feel.



achiro said:


> You're paying?


you caught that as well ay?;-) 
must have one of them bundle plans I se on the TV that has folk paying too much for the internets
Don't have a Grandchild with a dog collar! 
.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

achiro said:


> If this is what you really think about this place, you have missed out completely and have been paying attention to the wrong people. Most of what you say here couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> 
> It's usually not really about post count as much as what those posts contain. There are a lot of nuances each individual forum contains and if someone doesn't take the time to figure those out before bringing one to another they can really come across in the wrong way. *The worst is the new guy that asks for advise then poopoos that advise he's given and it happens all the time.*


Those people aren't really looking to learn anything, they are just looking for validation, and they get upset when they don't get it. ;-)


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

achiro said:


> If this is what you really think about this place, you have missed out completely and have been paying attention to the wrong people. Most of what you say here couldn't be further from the truth.


Which is why I said, "I think there’s enough experienced retriever veteran folks here to squash all that crap."

I only wrote what I've experienced since hanging around here. Which I perceive to be most probably is not the Real deal. You know the loudest attitudes get heard the most and all that jazz.

What shocked me was Rob's post about me looking for a Hand out? Really :lol: I've created one 
Inquiry topic about Live Birds which still hasn’t been answered. Just one and I’m looking for a hand out? MKay….. :lol:





Cowtown said:


> Uh, he does have his own Youtube channel....with a ton of videos posted there.
> 
> I figured you'd have known that if you watched one of his videos.
> 
> Not trying to be rude or cause a problem but...


I've only seen the Photobucket Channel. HERE

What's the Youtube Channel Name? so I can subscribe.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

I still don't understand why people get upset from a newbie posting a searchable question. If every question were only allowed to be asked once this forum would not have near the activity that it has now. I would have to say that even with the multitude of repeat questions,and the core of each response answering the question often is the same, but there may be additional helpful tidbits here and there that were not offered in the first post. I agree that a search can often answer just about every question offered up, but a repeat shouldn't offend or upset anyone. If the question, heck the subject line is probably all you need to read, has been asked and you don't want to offer your response then don't. Just keep on keepin' on, it's really not that hard to not comment on every post offered up. But if you must add your two cents why not help out by providing a link to the most help threads, you know the one's that you already answered....


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Vicky Trainor said:


> It amazes me when members here continue the personal insults, bad mouthing, poor attitudes and post on threads where Chris or other members such as Dennis have tried to point out that comments like those should not be a part of RTF.
> 
> Where is the disconnect????? Some people need to act like adults and not like children that should be sent to their rooms for a time out or, better yet, a good old time spanking!
> 
> Please, enough already.


Jeeze, this thread is unbelievable. Dennis makes great points that appear to go right over everyone's heads. My mother taught me to try and keep my mouth shut if I don't have anything good to say. I try to do that,I really do, but sometimes I can't help myself. Anyway, I feel sorry for the newby who doesn't understand or recognize the difference between the advise given by some accomplished, very veteren trainer and somebody with one junior hunter under his belt. 

Regarding the AA water blind threads, I just stayed clear. The Op on those threads has nice water, has apparently made some field champions and had the guts to share pictures of what he set up that day. It may or may not have been what I would set up, given the same water, but they were legit set ups. Where the thread went from there was crazy. From full on insults about the quality of the blind, to gratitude from some for a nice picture of water with points and other features. Jeeze, it was just a training set up, not an all age field trial blind, can't we just discuss what we think dogs would do at various points on the blind, what we are trying to get out of it from a training viewpoint and how we would anticipate handling and corrections.

I go here every day after training, but don't see much reason to post anymore.

John


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

To all the new!

The default person to pick on,,, call names,, debunk ever thing he says is .......... GOOSER

I dont know how manyposts I got,,,, way way to many. Dont think I have ever said anything intelligent ,, stayed on topic,, ect.

I give all the opportunity if you need a "pick on" fix,, to use Gooser as the pinyata... kint spell either!!

I am however ,, dead sexy,, post Great pictures of myself,,, and got perty wood. (including my floors, that reminds me I gotta post a picture a those fer some doubting Thomas)

So,, to all the new,, (and some a the old) if ya wanna denegrate,, I'm your guy!!!:razz:
Just remember,, if we ever meet in person,,,,, I am an INTIMIDATING FORCE to deal with!

Gooser

Above comments were done with tounge in nose!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Bud said:


> I still don't understand why people get upset from a newbie posting a searchable question. If every question were only allowed to be asked once this forum would not have near the activity that it has now .


 
I think the big issue with repost too is not accurately titling topics.


I have one inquiry topic about Live Bird Training.
Now live birds is another one of those topics that's been beat up side the head on here for YEARS right? Yet if you use the search function for "Titles Only" and enter, 'Live Bird Training' you get a whopping 3 topics. Two of which were created this year(2012). Now search for 'live birds' and you get 33 topics. After reading though a dozen what I wanted to know was not really covered. 
 
Now IMO that's the proper way to search and put in work before creating a repost topic. But I'm not a 'Net Noob'. Lots of folks that come here with a new account are internet noobs. Search Function is a foreign term and they probably don't even know where that option is. So how can you expect them to utilize it's function? You can't.
.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I MIGHT put Ya on my ignor list,,,,,, but not to worry that only last fer a day or two, till I get back on my meds.

Mr Robinson!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I MIGHT put Ya on my ignor list,,,,,, but not to worry that only last fer a day or two, till I get back on my meds.
> 
> Mr Robinson!


I am glad to hear that Gooser, because you my friend are a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale, stagnant aired old mine.

John


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## meckardt (Jun 24, 2010)

I usually only use my iPhone as well. However the search function works. When you first try to click in the box and type, it disappears. Then click on it again and start typing. It always works for me. Best of luck!!


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Mr. Voigt, I would hope that folks understand how lucky they are to have yourself, Mr. Graham, and others on this forum. Training dogs is supposed to be fun actually..humor makes it more fun
Thank you for the time that you invest here...Which leads me to a question..





RetrieversONLINE said:


> I've been real busy training my dogs and horses lately


Could you post a vid of yourself and your horse doing some Stand Alones?, lol.. :razz:


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Dennis, Thank you.You have much to offer as do many that are successful in dogs games ( FT,HT, hunting).I have been around labs since the early '70s and have found ( as you can tell from my post count) that I learn more by listening. I am trying to become a good handler let alone a better handler.Now back to FF my 6 month old BLF.

Silence is golden regards,

Jeff


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

Does the forum software have a feature that can put an indicator under someone’s user name as to the level of experience or expertise? Other forums I’m on have a field that indicates which members have Donated to the site. I’ve also seen other sites that have a Reputation field that all members can vote on based on their replies. Say for example someone posts something very helpful. All other members can give them good reputation. Same applies if someone says something incorrectly. See below pic. Those green dots indicate a ‘good’ member. Red would mean bad! Just a thought that we members can regulate who knows what they are talking about and who doesn’t.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Swampbilly said:


> Mr. Voigt, I would hope that folks understand how lucky they are to have yourself, Mr. Graham, and others on this forum. Training dogs is supposed to be fun actually..humor makes it more fun
> Thank you for the time that you invest here...Which leads me to a question..
> 
> 
> ...


.......LOL COOL! Use to ride saddle horses and love them, still. Once in your heart..there forever.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I am glad to hear that Gooser, because you my friend are a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale, stagnant aired old mine.
> 
> John


 
:razz::razz:

Believe it or not!

Gooser has a "time a the Month"


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

one thing i have noticed is that the novice trainer on this site is much wiser than when i began posting years ago. i used to marvel at whose advice they would take; it was always the poster who shared emotion instead of knowledge. That is a change for the better i'm happy to say! i find it difficult to understand why anyone would want to share their ugly side with the retriever world but that's their choice. life's too short fellow trainers, be kind to one another and we can make our dogs much better.
GG


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> Does the forum software have a feature that can put an indicator under someone’s user name as to the level of experience or expertise?


Not sure but in the user's profile there is a "Referrals" total. I suppose this was intended to do something similar. I have one referral, although it was likely a "reprimand" when or how I got one I am not sure.... Actually I am not sure about the "referral", cause I know what I did to earn the "reprimand"! 

I used to post more training questions and video's, but too many times I felt it was easier to go directly to the few who did provide constructive criticism, thus avoiding comments that I felt only demeaned or insulted without merit.

I do enjoy a good laugh, all the GDG, seating ducks, smoke poles & nipple wenches and such... 

I do think for some who do not have names, it's a very good thing you don't use them!! 

Without people like the OP, RTF would not be worth viewing.. IMHO.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2012)

Dustin D said:


> Which is why I said, "I think there’s enough experienced retriever veteran folks here to squash all that crap."


In a perfect world, yes. However, often if they do so here, they get slammed and are interpreted as being mean. That or they have someone with their first dog telling them the way it's supposed to be done. It's a no win situation.

And everything achiro said is spot on.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

I've learned some things here, but the most learning that has taken place for me is in the field with others who are much more experienced than me. 

The issue always is: Are you open to learning something new or are you gonna be closed and think you know it all (i.e., let ego get in the way)?

Book learning is one thing, but field experience is the whole thing. I feel like I have a "decent" grasp of the book side, but I'm still learning on the field side (and will always be learning).


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Melanie Foster said:


> In a perfect world, yes. However, often if they do so here, they get slammed and are interpreted as being mean. That or they have someone with their first dog telling them the way it's supposed to be done. It's a no win situation.
> 
> And everything achiro said is spot on.


I'd much rather get my hiney chewed off than to NOT know that I got a de-merit for posting something that isn't right.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2012)

Swampbilly said:


> I'd much rather get my hiney chewed off than to NOT know that I got a de-merit for posting something that isn't right.


I like it.


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Byron Musick said:


> Not sure but in the user's profile there is a "Referrals" total. I suppose this was intended to do something similar. I have one referral, although it was likely a "reprimand" when or how I got one I am not sure.... Actually I am not sure about the "referral", cause I know what I did to earn the "reprimand"!


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_vb_referrals_explain


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Gooser is just a HT'r.. Very inexperienced at that too.

I have had the priviledge to train with Miss Loveland.
I have never been to a FT.

One day we were training. The st up for a blind Miss Loveland was going to run was a down the shore water blind.
She was getting ready to run one of her big dogs, and I asked where the bird was.
She said "on that point"
I didnt SEE a point!!
Then I figgured it out!!.. I Wet myself!!!!

Miss Loveland was concerened she has lost one of her transmitters. She was asking people if they had seen it. This is just before she is getting ready to send the dog.

She sends the dog, dog goes with a beautiful water entry, and starts its swim 5yrds off shoreline swimming dead straight. 

Miss Loveland leaves the line, goes back to her truck, and is looking for the transmitter, Never even looking at Fido!

Fido swims dead straight 5 yrds from shore, never eben thinkin about gettin on land for over 300 yrds!:shock:
Miss Loveland is still at the truck!!!!

Dog picks up bird,, and starts its return,, agin 5 yrds from shore,, and in the water, swimming dead straight back to the line.

Miss Loveland returns with the missing transmitter,, and asks "Hows He doing"?

My Teethe fell out!!!

You all ,that have dogs that can perform to this level truly have amazing animals. 

Us Mere Mortals that THINK we have well trained dogs,,, or have all the answeres need to take a step back!!!!

Gooser enjoyed the AA water blind thread. It didnt matter one wit to me wether or not people didnt think it was tough enough or not!! I jst want a dog that can do that!!! I hope we keep these kind of threads going. Member it always looks easy till ya run it!

Gooser


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

sandyg said:


> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_vb_referrals_explain


So now I have to figure out which poor basted I did this too!! LOL!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Buzz said:


> Those people aren't really looking to learn anything, they are just looking for validation, and they get upset when they don't get it. ;-)


 
A lot of validity to this statement....especially lately. I read through pages of whinning because someone suggested something other than what the OP wanted to hear...Or, they OP just isn't getting it so, someone gets real blunt. Like I keep saying...you lab types are all too sensitive. 

Especially the ones who have pro trained dogs and regurgitate what they hear from their pro after running the dog in the Am a few weekends a year.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Swampbilly said:


> Could you post a vid of yourself and your horse doing some Stand Alones?, lol.. :razz:



I'm certainly not Dennis Voight but definitely hope this degeneration of his thread doesn't scare him off--he's definitely among the small handful who post very valuable information for us wanna-be types (even those with Chesapeakes!)

That said, I thought you might like to see my big bay horse TenBrooks learning swim by. He sucked as a foxhunter so I thought maybe he could learn to be a sea horse.









The choco. Lab and CBR are helpfully encouraging him not to beach early. He didn't listen--must've been the trainer 
With apologies to Dennis for GDG'in up his thread.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Julie R. said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is way too funny, Julie!  

Thanks for it


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## Jeannie Greenlee (Apr 15, 2009)

OMG people! I find it hard to believe that someone as respected as Dennis creates a post about how crappy people can treat each other on this forum, and some of you proceed to go that road again in the same thread! I feel ashamed for you. 
I'm so sorry Dennis and all the other experienced people that put up with ignorance of those new to the sport and are willing to try and help.


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## Tom. P. (Oct 20, 2010)

I get a ton of good information from this site. One can always learn by watching and or listening to someone that makes their profession out of training Dogs. Having said that. Not everything that works for one will work for another. Our Dogs are all different just like the people on here. 
Ever wonder what this site would be like if Our Dogs could use the computer?


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

Tom. P. said:


> Ever wonder what this site would be like if Our Dogs could use the computer?


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Julie R. said:


> I'm certainly not Dennis Voight but definitely hope this degeneration of his thread doesn't scare him off--he's definitely among the small handful who post very valuable information for us wanna-be types (even those with Chesapeakes!)
> 
> That said, I thought you might like to see my big bay horse TenBrooks learning swim by. He sucked as a foxhunter so I thought maybe he could learn to be a sea horse.
> 
> ...


Julie!....that is a great picture and story to go with it!  

Judy


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm surprised that someone hasn't suggested the formation of a tribunal to determine which questions are worthy of everyone's time and which new members are not minding their place nor understanding their role. Those who violate these protocols should be banished from even viewing some of these pearls of wisdom. ( Their role? Seriously? ) 

If such a tribunal was in place, the most condescending veterans among the group could quickly usher a newbie to a FAQ site with pre-approved answers reviewed (by the tribunal) to be the definitive expert opinion. With proper diligence, the definitive, pre-approved answer to every possible training question could receive its own unique number. That way, the old hands wouldn't be troubled by unnecessary drivel from inquisitive travelers to this site. 

As new people join the site, hardly containing their bright-eyed optimism over this new (to them) world of retrievers, shows, hunting, hunt tests and field trials, poised to ask their very first question, everyone would be ready for them. 

We could have a contest to see who can be first to blurt out the correct number corresponding to the answer to their question. Well, provided their question or their very existence is even worthy of our time. Everyone could be assigned a rating for the speed, accuracy and the condescension of their responses. Bonus points could be given to the first veteran who determines that a newbie asked a question that had not been previously cataloged. (Like that would ever happen.)

That could work until someone realizes that sometimes people just want to have a place to go to discuss common interests without fear of being bludgeoned by the self important and all-knowing. 

Some of those people come here in search of such a place. 

Go figure.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> . Frankly, it's been pretty discouraging as I repeatedly read about the same problems that have ocurred for ages and yet have been solved by many though various posts, DVDs, books, workshops and more over and over. How discouraging is that!!!
> 
> *Does anybody care about about trying to become a better trainer and handler?*
> 
> ...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Brian Urban said:


> I'm surprised that someone hasn't suggested the formation of a tribunal to determine which questions are worthy of everyone's time and which new members are not minding their place nor understanding their role. Those who violate these protocols should be banished from even viewing some of these pearls of wisdom. ( Their role? Seriously? )
> 
> If such a tribunal was in place, the most condescending veterans among the group could quickly usher a newbie to a FAQ site with pre-approved answers reviewed (by the tribunal) to be the definitive expert opinion. With proper diligence, the definitive, pre-approved answer to every possible training question could receive its own unique number. That way, the old hands wouldn't be troubled by unnecessary drivel from inquisitive travelers to this site.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, but the, "What Brand of Dog food do you Recommend" threads get old and there is probably a million of them to read through already without burying the decent threads such as the one Dennis commented upon. I've got to ask, how many times have you used the search function? I use it regularly and read old topics/posts. I'm still a newbie by all means compared to the old wrinkled up crabby-patties on here...


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

I think people need to ask themselves a question before they even think of posting, "Am I the chaff or the wheat?"

New people post three-word responses because they want to get to ten posts so they can PM people in the classifieds. Others want to feel part of the group so they post worthless responses of ten words or less. This isn't Twitter and this isn't Facebook.

Everyone's welcome here to learn and give advice but we should all try to maintain the usefulness of this training subforum by searching for what you need first, either on this site or a general Google search before you start a thread. Why should someone else want to help you when you're too lazy to attempt to help yourself?

I've learned a lot on here by sitting back and reading and discovering old posts. A lot of new members would be well served by doing the same.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't pick on folks because I'm usually the one being picked on but, for a simple and easy example. A person with 12 posts just started a thread about CC.....

My search of Collar Conditioning took .38 seconds and yielded 500 pages of information to read through. As someone stated earlier, folks don't want to read or read opinions and learn, they are more often than not looking for someone who shares their same opinion. If the responses they get don't line up with what they "see" as right, they get pizzed off.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

But again some people can't use the search function. I have an iPhone and an android and it won't let me use the search function. If I was able to I would use it daily.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kevin James said:


> But again some people can't use the search function. I have an iPhone and an android and it won't let me use the search function. If I was able to I would use it daily.


even more a reason not to post examples like I just made. If you can't search, don't post it.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

This place ain't broke and does't need fixing. Just needs the mods to do the job they do so well, open a can of whup arse every now and then when needed.

Spank me regards,


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Kevin James said:


> But again some people can't use the search function. I have an iPhone and an android and it won't let me use the search function. If I was able to I would use it daily.


I don't understand this. I have an iPhone and it works just fine. You can also search retrievertraining.net using google like so:

site:retrievertraining.net searchterms

Try it.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

mitty said:


> I don't understand this. I have an iPhone and it works just fine. You can also search retrievertraining.net using google like so:
> 
> site:retrievertraining.net searchterms
> 
> Try it.


LOL

This is a good one. Come to RTF to learn to search on Google via mobile phone. 

hehe ;-)


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

Thanks !!! Now I know how to search using my iPhone. I've been pissed for months that it didn't work  !!!!!


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Well I don't know why I can't use the rtf search from my phones but will try the google option


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> even more a reason not to post examples like I just made. If you can't search, don't post it.


I'm a bit confused about this. Are you suggesting that if someone is unable to search, they shouldn't even post then? What happens if they search for something and the results they come up with don't pertain to their specific question but are sort of related to that question? They still shouldn't post?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Ahh, it's not so bad. Anytime there's a group of people anywhere, there's a few we don't like or that don't like us.

A few that we politely talk to or listen to and are relieved when they move on.

There are "snobs" everywhere, my dog is better than your dog, my gun, my tools, my religion, my kids, etc., etc.

There is always someone who asks your opinion, when all they really want is for you to agree with their opinion.

It gets a bit laughable and predictable sometimes, but I still read it often...


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

duk4me said:


> This place ain't broke and does't need fixing. Just needs the mods to do the job they do so well, open a can of whup arse every now and then when needed.
> 
> *Spank me regards*,


No, you would probably enjoy it!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> I'm a bit confused about this. Are you suggesting that if someone is unable to search, they shouldn't even post then? What happens if they search for something and the results they come up with don't pertain to their specific question but are sort of related to that question? They still shouldn't post?


 
yes, if you are too lazy to turn on your computer because you are too lazy to figure out how to use your Iphone and a search function, don't post.....every dog topic has been posted upon here. Of course there are real questions but, I haven't seen anything new pertaining to what brand of dog food to feed, what timeline should look like, etc, etc in months...like the CC thread.... I had 500 pages of threads and posts to read in 0.38 of a second.


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> yes, if you are too lazy to turn on your computer because you are too lazy to figure out how to use your Iphone and a search function, don't post.....every dog topic has been posted upon here. Of course there are real questions but, I haven't seen anything new pertaining to what brand of dog food to feed, what timeline should look like, etc, etc in months...like the CC thread.... I had 500 pages of threads and posts to read in 0.38 of a second.


Awesomesauce, thanks for the clarification! I disagree with you wholeheartedly, but the world ain't perfect.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> Awesomesauce, thanks for the clarification! I disagree with you wholeheartedly, but the world ain't perfect.


i think what he's trying to say is you don't need to start a new thread about Diamond dog food when there already is a thread about Diamond dog food on page 2 or 3. If your question isn't answered in that thread just ask it in there. It makes it difficult to research a topic when everybody starts their own thread.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Kevin James said:


> Well I don't know why I can't use the rtf search from my phones but will try the google option


As said before you need to hit search twice. Click it once and try typing, it will go away. Click search a second time and it should work. Hope that helps.


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## cpj (Sep 28, 2009)

what Dennis is trying to say is to quit listening to these wannabees and order a subscription to Retrievers Online.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

I think the problem here is an organizational one.

I've got some ideas that I think could solve this real quick.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> and he nails it!
> yet we should be mindful to only type, what we would say face to face. For a few, that would be quite a task, I feel.
> 
> 
> ...


Ha! Too funny!


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Dustin D said:


> I think the problem here is an organizational one.
> 
> I've got some ideas that I think could solve this real quick.


Oh deer lowered! :grab:


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Dustin D said:


> I think the problem here is an organizational one.
> 
> I've got some ideas that I think could solve this real quick.


Don't listen to him.

Make me a mod and give me access to the ban button and I will have this place cleaned up in no time!


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> Gooser, you my friend are a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale, stagnant aired old mine.
> 
> John


That ain't what Mrs. Gooser said.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Becky Mills said:


> That ain't what Mrs. Gooser said.


 



I think it's time for the gooser in the bathtub pic gets posted, along with Shane and the puka shell necklace... some of the newbs need to see the 
"RTF - Afterdark."


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I think it's time for the gooser in the bathtub pic gets posted, along with Shane and the puka shell necklace... some of the newbs need to see the
> "RTF - Afterdark."


Who's Shane?


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Jeannie Greenlee said:


> OMG people! I find it hard to believe that someone as respected as Dennis creates a post about how crappy people can treat each other on this forum, and some of you proceed to go that road again in the same thread!


Yup, I caught that too. Those are the same folks who will be terminally stuck in "Stage II" and they'll never recognize that they are. The positive side of RTF are those who will or have moved on to "Stage III" and that is what keeps this forum worth coming back to.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Thought for the day: 

*You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to. 

*If somebody makes a post you don't like, don't respond, Ignore it. If you don't feed trolls, they either go away or quiet down and learn. And we can't save every newbie that reads or follows bad advice...they have to learn to sort the wheat from the chaff on their own. Let it go. There are more important things to worry about.


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

Dustin D said:


> I think the problem here is an organizational one.
> 
> I've got some ideas that I think could solve this real quick.


I have a great idea!! can we all just get along.And try to treat each other with respect, I think we all come to this forum for the love of our dogs ,to share ideas and to compete in the field trial game or hunt tests it really shouldn't be this hard!! just my opinion .
Dave Hare


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Losthwy said:


> Yup, I caught that too. Those are the same folks who will be terminally stuck in "Stage II" and they'll never recognize that they are. The positive side of RTF are those who will or have moved on to "Stage III" and that is what keeps this forum worth coming back to.


Definitely, now you have really confused them. They will not know what we mean by Stage I, Stage II, and Stage III. That's going back a few years.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> I think it's time for the gooser in the bathtub pic gets posted, along with Shane and the puka shell necklace... some of the newbs need to see the
> "RTF - Afterdark."


Where is the swishy thread? Isn't there a pic of Shane in a members only jacket and cowboy hat?


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## Darin Brewer (Jan 25, 2012)

If I would known that newbies were so disregarded on this forum then I would have never signed up for it. Guess I'll keep watching other forums. Didn't know that the trainers on here thought so negative about new people joining to ask question. Thought people were here to ask questions and learn what could be done differently. I do not think the original post had anything to do with newbies. However, somehow it got turned around on the newbies that are asking questions. 

Feel free to bash me for this post since I am technically a newbie on this particular forum.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

fowled_mood said:


> If I would known that newbies were so disregarded on this forum then I would have never signed up for it. Guess I'll keep watching other forums. Didn't know that the trainers on here thought so negative about new people joining to ask question. Thought people were here to ask questions and learn what could be done differently. I do not think the original post had anything to do with newbies. However, somehow it got turned around on the newbies that are asking questions.
> 
> Feel free to bash me for this post since I am technically a newbie on this particular forum.


Bash boom bam newbies are gonna catch some grief on here. But if you stick around it will be worth the bash boom bam. Trust me I"ve been bash boom bammed and have bash boomed bammed too.

Have fun don't take it so serious most of the bash boom bam is bash boom bam bull sh!t.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

World Peace....


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

frontier said:


> Definitely, now you have really confused them. They will not know what we mean by Stage I, Stage II, and Stage III. That's going back a few years.


When the original labeling system was developed it was Phase 1-3, don't know who or when "stage" replaced phase but the system is the same.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

achiro said:


> *Dennis, with all due respect to you why didn't you offer your expertise to the thread in question?* You garner a huge amount of respect around here, I wish you would use it more. Instead of griping about the problems that have existed as long as I can remember, do something to change it. We still don't know for sure if that is even an AA blind as the title claims or just a Qual blind as Mel suggested.


That's a reasonable question.

john


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

However, now the time between Phase 1 and Phase 2 is accelerated down to a couple of weeks. They can compete in the SRS-Super Retriever Smarts supported by Google.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> However, now the time between Phase 1 and Phase 2 is accelerated down to a couple of weeks. They can compete in the SRS-Super Retriever Smarts supported by Google.


yes, but Phase II can, and sometimes does, last forever


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Kevin James said:


> But again some people can't use the search function. I have an iPhone and an android and it won't let me use the search function. If I was able to I would use it daily.


 
You've said this several times. I know I search all the time using my Android based phone (Galaxy S Captivate), used to use search with my Blackberry Bold, and know several folks who use the search with an IPhone.

Why can't you ue search?


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I just got it. I was just hitting search once and would try and type something in and it would disappear. Now that I know to hit search then hit on advance search it works now


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2012)

duk4me said:


> Trust me I"ve been bash boom bammed and have bash boomed bammed too.


Please keep your bedroom experiences to yourself.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Bash boom bam newbies are gonna catch some grief on here. But if you stick around it will be worth the bash boom bam. Trust me I"ve been bash boom bammed and have bash boomed bammed too.Have fun don't take it so serious most of the bash boom bam is bash boom bam bull sh!t.


Couldn't agree more with ya.

This is a FORUM which means newbies are going to get opinions from all quarters -- whether it is on training methods, breeding, favorite stud dogs (past and present), the best progesterone levels, and dog food.

You are going to see posts on threads morp off of the original post. My post about the first wolf in CA since 1924 is an example. It morphed into discussion about fish and different wolf species; photos of huge dead wolves; the pros and cons of re-introducing wolves and other species where they had not been before, and it brought out pro-wolf lovers and anti-wolf haters. But if you follow the posts, you will read information about wolves you did not know. 

And if you venture into POTUS, you better have a thick skin cuz politics does not often bring out the best in folks. 

Stick around and you will learn something -- and you will survive the bash boom bam. Most all of us started out as newbies and we survived.  

Helen


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2012)

cpj said:


> what Dennis is trying to say is to quit listening to these wannabees and order a subscription to Retrievers Online.


That is about the rudest thing I have seen posted on this forum. And believe me I've been here a while.

Dennis has been one of the most generous posters with significant input for folks training a retriever at any level.

*Shame on you.* Nice way to try and scare away the few folks who actually have knowledge backed by experience from contributing to this forum.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> There are "snobs" everywhere, my dog is better than your dog


Ain't neither! Yer a meanie.



> Who's Shane?


That's a guy who used to hang around here, then he got married, had kids and ain't no fun no more. Poor guy grew up.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> A lot of validity to this statement....especially lately. I read through pages of whinning because someone suggested something other than what the OP wanted to hear...Or, they OP just isn't getting it so, someone gets real blunt. Like I keep saying...you lab types are all too sensitive.
> 
> Especially the ones who have pro trained dogs and regurgitate what they hear from their pro after running the dog in the Am a few weekends a year.



Like! By the way where's the like button


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Trust me I"ve been bash boom bammed and have bash boomed bammed too.


Were live chickens and weed eaters involved?


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## Matt Weberpal (Oct 9, 2009)

Groundhog day must be approaching! A wise man(Ken) once said RTF is cyclical..........or was it cynical?

Happy training, carry on.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

achiro said:


> Dennis, with all due respect to you why didn't you offer your expertise to the thread in question? You garner a huge amount of respect around here, I wish you would use it more. Instead of griping about the problems that have existed as long as I can remember, do something to change it. We still don't know for sure if that is even an AA blind as the title claims or just a Qual blind as Mel suggested.


Achiro. . . I answered your question in the first line of my post. The answer is that I am quite busy with priorities of training my personal dogs and horses and enjoying many other things on most days. In the past, I have on occassion dived into such threads. Usually, it was when I couldn't do things I'd like due to weather, or I was stuck in the office and was procrastinating with writer's block OR I was posting because I really felt for the dogs and wished to comment on what I thought was mis-guided advice.

I have never seen any evidence that my posts have helped prevent poor posts here. IMO, they have not helped prevent the kind of posts that are becoming more common here. I have not made a lot of posts in the past compared to many but I have tried to make them all of value and rarely just to be a "cute", "humorous" or "inciteful". I might have strayed a bit but I dared not compete with those who can talk about "seating a duck!" better than I. RTF is blessed with some great "wits" and they can rarely be upped. RTF GDG is part of the culture and should be. The classic RTF anatagonists are also part of the culture-perhaps they are less useful but sometimes they play an important role!!!

However, when a thread gets "trashed" within a few hours it sure discourages me from responding. Heck, this thread was partially trashed in a few minutes!

I have talked to many experienced and successful trainers who used to post here. They all say it is not worth their time anymore. Trust me, it is not because they don't care about dogs or training. It is because they increasingly felt they had better things to do as the overall level of discussion declined. 

Today, I even speculated whether I would ever post again!! While this thread was getting over 5,500 views i was busy training my dogs and horses, watched one dog and two horse DVDs, wrote an article and more. 

With all due respect, why am I expected to respond to all or any threads?

Later today, Fallon suggested that Achiro's question above was reasonable. But surely, most of you know what the answer to his question was!!!

My only suggestion is that everybody try harder to be more respectful of each other and their thoughts and at the same time try to work harder to become a student and learn from the many available resources. Then, use RTF for it's unique features of posters' good and bad experiences and opinion while recognizing it's full of both wheat and chaff. 

Don't feel that you have to get rid of the chaff- just try to reap or contribute to the wheat!!!

Heck! can you imagine if we all did that!!!!

Cheers

PS. I was asked to post a Vid of my horse doing a Stand Alone or perhaps it was doing a Stand Alone for my dog but using my horses. All I have is a photo of Scamper, (my sorrel Q'Horse in my avatar) being F Fetched. 
F stands for Fun in FF. I'd post it but that would be trashing my own thread!!!!


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

The retriever training world is not an homogeneous one. Far from it. What does some guy following Wolters trying to earn a JH have in common with Dennis Voigt or Lanse Brown ? Different tribes, different goals, different mind sets, and speaking a different language. 
Dustin you may have a point. Does it make sense to throw all these different view points into one forum? Is it advantageous and harmonious to do so? Or would we be all be better served with a Hunt Test Forum and a separate Field Trial Forum? Like the Canadian Hunting Dogs forum does? Food for thought.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Losthwy said:


> The retriever training world is not an homogeneous one. Far from it. What does some guy following Wolters trying to earn a JH have in common with Dennis Voigt or Lanse Brown ? Different tribes, different goals, different mind sets, and speaking a different language.
> Dustin you may have a point. Does it make sense to throw all these different view points into one forum? Is it advantageous and harmonious to do so? Or would we be all be better served with a Hunt Test Forum and a separate Field Trial Forum? Like the Canadian Hunting Dogs forum does? Food for thought.


One of the biggest proponents on RTF of NOT adding subforums doesn't post here anymore. While I don't think that the addition of subforums will cure mean-spirited behavior, I'm not at all opposed to considering some more subforums. 

I do think it may make it a bit more difficult for some folks to find meaningful info that could be beneficial for them, as it will increase the number of potential places that good ideas may fall. 

I think it is a shame that Dennis' intended purpose for this thread was pretty much derailed from the start. I appreciate that Dennis was trying to make a point very much. I agree with Dennis' point. 

Please take a moment and click the poll that was just put up regarding the addition of subforums.

Thanks, Chris


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> That is about the rudest thing I have seen posted on this forum. And believe me I've been here a while.
> 
> Dennis has been one of the most generous posters with significant input for folks training a retriever at any level.
> 
> *Shame on you.* Nice way to try and scare away the few folks who actually have knowledge backed by experience from contributing to this forum.


Melanie, your assumption that that post is mean spirited could be right , or wrong. It is a good example of the problem on RTF that the OP writes about.
In fact, if CPJ was giving advice, then it is good advice. If CPJ was being a sh!t, then you are right. 
The assumptions made by readers of the written word and the willingness to be nastier than you would in person, is where the problem lies, the source, is often people with thousands of posts.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I think it is a shame that Dennis' intended purpose for this thread was pretty much derailed from the start. I appreciate that Dennis was trying to make a point very much. I agree with Dennis' point.


Me too Chris.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Achiro. . . I answered your question in the first line of my post. The answer is that I am quite busy with priorities of training my personal dogs and horses and enjoying many other things on most days. In the past, I have on occassion dived into such threads. Usually, it was when I couldn't do things I'd like due to weather, or I was stuck in the office and was procrastinating with writer's block OR I was posting because I really felt for the dogs and wished to comment on what I thought was mis-guided advice.
> 
> I have never seen any evidence that my posts have helped prevent poor posts here. IMO, they have not helped prevent the kind of posts that are becoming more common here. I have not made a lot of posts in the past compared to many but I have tried to make them all of value and rarely just to be a "cute", "humorous" or "inciteful". I might have strayed a bit but I dared not compete with those who can talk about "seating a duck!" better than I. RTF is blessed with some great "wits" and they can rarely be upped. RTF GDG is part of the culture and should be. The classic RTF anatagonists are also part of the culture-perhaps they are less useful but sometimes they play an important role!!!
> 
> ...


Your thoughts could not be more true!!! Fun is fun and demeaning is demeaning. Fun makes this stuff just that...fun. The "You're an idiot!" posts do absolutely NO good for anyone, unless your intent is to highjack a post with a futile arguement. Disagree with someone and explain why with some civility, no matter if you are a beginner or pro.


*DENNIS PLEASE KEEP COMING BACK!!!*


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I quit reading RTF for almost a year, came back about 6 months ago and frankly in the past 6 months i've been insulted, called names, sent private PM's from people in "DVD trainers camps" that my disagreeing on certain topics with the author just shows how ignorant I am etc etc etc. I used to post more advice and thoughts about how I would work with a dog or work through a problem but the incentive to spend time thinking through an answer is not worth being told how worthless it is. Even the joking and fun we used to have has changed because the politically correct crowd pisses and moans over every little thing. The forum has become over run by blatant marketing attempts, newbies asking for help then arguing when you give it. The only reason I bother even looking anymore is because I still get PM's from folks who want to discuss different aspects of training or get my thoughts on how to work through situations with their dog. 

I have better things to do with my time. Those of you who want to "confront me" are certainly welcome to do so when I get done running my dogs in the third series of any test I attend. I feel pretty safe stating that since most of the goobers who want to confront me never make it out of the first....

/Paul


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## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

*DENNIS PLEASE KEEP COMING BACK!!!*

X2


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Understanding why this happens won't change anything. Human nature is what it is. Just like every dog has a different temperament ,,people also have different temperaments. Countless people around the world read this forum and each one has a ever so slightly reaction to it.

Some think if you post a smiley face that your laughing at them. That just might be so sometimes I suppose.

One thing I do know is we have ALL been guilty of it at some point in cyber space if we have been around for a while,,,,, just because we are human and that goes for the icons also,,,, Weather we wanted to or not. Every word is received a little different depending on the readers state of mind. You couple that with passion for an endevor and look out.

I totally understand where Dennis is coming from ,,Where Gun dog 2002 is coming from and where new people are coming from. If you are going to be successful at dog training you better understand where the dog is coming from at what level his maturity is at. Feeding a infant meat and suchi leads to a mess

Same with posters.

No body likes to be argued with even over the internet but we all like stimulating conversations... What is a stimulating conversation for one is an all out war for another.

Should we all leave our personalities at the door when we post?
Or should we just assume someone wasn't really taking a shot at us when something hits us or them funny


Putting an ego aside is the first step in advanced learning. 

Yours truely
Dr Laura
,,,,ummmm sorry thats just part of my temperament,,,,no harm intended but I'll bet their are about 20 percent of the viewing audience that will be.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> Understanding why this happens won't change anything. Human nature is what it is. Just like every dog has a different temperament ,,people also have different temperaments. Countless people around the world read this forum and each one has a ever so slightly reaction to it.
> 
> Some think if you post a smiley face that your laughing at them. That just might be so sometimes I suppose.
> 
> ...


Pete,

I'm pretty sure I'd gladly have you train my dog if I were unable to do it.

Thanks.

- Chris, the unsuccessful herder of cats. 

Speaking of which, my wife was just saying last night: "If those darn cats would not be so dramatic and make such a big issue over the dogs approaching, the dogs would barely pay attention. Those cats bring it upon themselves."

Pete, you're as good a reader of situations as anyone. Do you see any parallels to what's happening in my home and what happens on RTF?


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I quit reading RTF for almost a year, came back about 6 months ago and frankly in the past 6 months i've been insulted, called names, sent private PM's from people in "DVD trainers camps" that my disagreeing on certain topics with the author just shows how ignorant I am etc etc etc. I used to post more advice and thoughts about how I would work with a dog or work through a problem but the incentive to spend time thinking through an answer is not worth being told how worthless it is. Even the joking and fun we used to have has changed because the politically correct crowd pisses and moans over every little thing. The forum has become over run by blatant marketing attempts, newbies asking for help then arguing when you give it. The only reason I bother even looking anymore is because I still get PM's from folks who want to discuss different aspects of training or get my thoughts on how to work through situations with their dog. Also...use the block function in your settings page, that in its self could solve the whole problem. I suspect that the people getting blocked will be consistent across the whole rtf, which makes me wonder why we tolerate it?
> 
> I have better things to do with my time. Those of you who want to "confront me" are certainly welcome to do so when I get done running my dogs in the third series of any test I attend. I feel pretty safe stating that since most of the goobers who want to confront me never make it out of the first....
> 
> /Paul


That pretty much says it, it's almost become entertainment. Any thread that is 4 or more pages usually has a pissing match and as sick as it sounds it's entertaining. It would be foolish of me to post anything with substance, I have even been attacked in the event page. There's no strength in separation so adding sub forums doesn't seem like a good idea. What I would suggest is a 3 strikes your out policy, suspend their posting for a year after the third strike. Maybe all the mods could vote if a particular person should be suspended, then no one can be accused of picking on someone. Food for thought!


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Losthwy said:


> The retriever training world is not an homogeneous one. Far from it. What does some guy following Wolters trying to earn a JH have in common with Dennis Voigt or Lanse Brown ? Different tribes, different goals, different mind sets, and speaking a different language.
> Dustin you may have a point. Does it make sense to throw all these different view points into one forum? Is it advantageous and harmonious to do so? Or would we be all be better served with a Hunt Test Forum and a separate Field Trial Forum? Like the Canadian Hunting Dogs forum does? Food for thought.


Well, you never know....that guy following Wolters, to attempt to earn a JH...may have quite a bit in common with Dennis and other long-time successful FT people. There may be the same great respect for their retrievers, the people they come in contact with in training, testing..and in their communication such as on RTF. Also, by reading the training and trialing threads and posts here, that guy might decide to train on for highler leves of hunt test accomplishments, and who knows, maybe try the "Q", ...then on to the AM and Open Stakes if he finds himself with such a retriever. 

Separate hunt test field trial forums if you wish, but to draw a line, or make it seem so, to access and post seems rash. 

Most concepts of training are the same for both venues as everyone knows ..the training threads, along with those with photos and the so important feedback..such as what the dog might do, will do, bird placement..on and on. Opportunity to do one's own set up on those photos and ask for feedback by anyone on RTF are helpful to both venues. 

Really, priceless to many that are just learning to present "pictures" to their retrievers. 

Distance can be shortened for those that do not need 300-+ marks and blinds, but the concepts are there for them. Those needing less distance may see fields that are not as large, but have "concepts" that they might not recognize if they had not seen them here. Pictures are worth a thousand words and can be so encouraging. Many may not post replies or questions at all, but can take them to the field ....and train. 

By the way, thank you Dennis and all others that offer training, trialing and judging threads. 

I digress regards ...and just an opinion, 

Judy


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Brian Cockfield said:


> Me too Chris.


Me three! 

I think by what happened after Dennis posted this thread,.....actually proved his point. 
Shame.


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## agengo02 (Nov 3, 2009)

Whoa some things never change. The "newbies" will never get no respect; and the older folks just can't stand the stupid newbies. 

About the search function: yall act like your time is so important that you can't be bothered by opening another thread with a question that has been asked/answered several times. DON'T OPEN IT. I understand a complaint about inaccurate titles (which would help alleviate this problem) but if you open a thread about "FF Basics" don't complain when it is a discussion about just that. Whether it has been argued about many times doesn't matter at all. New threads keep this place (and most forums) going. Get over it.

Also, there will never be harmony in the dog training world because the whole idea is to pimp yourself out as the best trainer. What is the only way to prove your worth as a trainer; talk about how great your dog(s) is/are and the way you trained them is the best out there. It's just a function of that world.


Oh and much of the name calling/bashing is happening from the older, respected folks on here. Just some food for thought.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

> *What is the only way to prove your worth as a trainer;* talk about how great your dog(s) is/are and the way you trained them is the best out there.


Winning (or passing)

Talk is cheap


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

jeff evans said:


> That pretty much says it, it's almost become entertainment. Any thread that is 4 or more pages usually has a pissing match and as sick as it sounds it's entertaining. It would be foolish of me to post anything with substance, I have even been attacked in the event page. There's no strength in separation so adding sub forums doesn't seem like a good idea. What I would suggest is a 3 strikes your out policy, suspend their posting for a year after the third strike. Maybe all the mods could vote if a particular person should be suspended, then no one can be accused of picking on someone. Food for thought!


Ok, so here is a dickhead move. Some reason you added this....



> Also...use the block function in your settings page, that in its self could solve the whole problem. I suspect that the people getting blocked will be consistent across the whole rtf, which makes me wonder why we tolerate it?


to my message making it look like i wrote that? 

/Paul


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

Bottomline is I know many "young" guys that wanted to play the ft game and got pissed on by the " old boys club". We were all newbies at one time. My gran father always said and taught me( and will teach my kids) "the only stupid question is one that is not asked". I'm not a newbie anymore. But I'm 40 and I am one of the " young guys " playing the game in my area. Perhaps some questions seem lame , perhaps search tools should be used. I for one am not computer savvy. As far as questions I'm still asking. Sometimes lame one I'm sure. We all need to remember that with all the people playing we vary from new to old and beginners to experienced. In my area if more newbies don't get into the sport there will be no sport. There's definitely not enough people my age to support a stake. Let alone work and / or throw birds. Clubs are already struggling to find bird boys. As painful as it may seem to some at times we need newbies just as much as we need the " old boys " to mentor them. If we all do that the sport will be much bettr for all.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

It's not the questions that are the problem.It's the response to the answers or answers come from those who are less experienced that may not help the situation but may cause harm.

Jeff Gruber


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## agengo02 (Nov 3, 2009)

KNorman said:


> Winning (or passing)
> 
> Talk is cheap


But the winning always comes out with talk. IE: you talk about how awesome your dog did when you won the blah blah blah. 

To add to my point though; winning isn't the ONLY thing to be counted when deciding training merit. Many great trainers only train "meat dogs" so how would their voice be heard if they don't have the fancy little ribbons acknowledging their dog passed a certain standard?


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I have not read all the posts here and I am probably hijacking this thread. But I enjoyed the article "A Conversation with Al McKean." I would really like to hear more about his training. Starting with his back up drill and more. 

Does Al McKean post on RTN?


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

Wrong answers are how people learn also. If they answer wrong guide them to the right answer. Is that not what we try to do with out kids and dogs. I don't burn my dogs if they are trying. I'm not going to bite someones head off that's doing the same.....


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Teaching and training is only teaching when they listen.If they already have a forgone conclusion beating your head against a wall feels good when you stop.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2012)

labsforme said:


> It's not the questions that are the problem.It's the response to the answers or answers come from those who are less experienced that may not help the situation but may cause harm.
> 
> Jeff Gruber


And that's it in a nutshell. When folks with more experience try and step in and say whoa let's not rush into this and add advice *they have gained from experience*, it is often interpreted as being mean spirited. It gets old real fast. It is a wonder anyone with experience cares to give any kind of advice at all any more.

And if people can't tell a smart alec remark from one with the intent of being mean, what is one to do?


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2012)

labsforme said:


> Teaching and training is only teaching when they listen.If they already have a forgone conclusion beating your head against a wall feels good when you stop.


That, too.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> And that's it in a nutshell. When folks with more experience try and step in and say whoa let's not rush into this and add advice *they have gained from experience*, it is often interpreted as being mean spirited. It gets old real fast. It is a wonder anyone with experience cares to give any kind of advice at all any more.


Some people (continuing to post even now) have a chip on their shoulders just because others are experienced. It's a no win situation and it's why experienced people with gold nuggets have left.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Person A asks a question
Person B gives bad advice
Person C scolds B for bad advice and gives A good advice 
A gets mad at C because he/she agreed with B and doesn't want to hear the truth from C 
A and B rip C for good advice he/she gave

Who gets banned for being a "meanie"?

and the answer is NOT achiro.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

achiro said:


> Person A asks a question
> Person B gives bad advice
> Person C scolds B for bad advice and gives A good advice
> A gets mad at C because he/she agreed with B and doesn't want to hear the truth from C
> ...


Rinse and repeat. That pretty much captures it. 

Usually person B is only a month or two removed from the "I just got my first retriever" post and is already giving training advice. It takes a while for folks to figure out who here knows what they are doing. In the meantime, for the dogs' sake, I am glad those who do are willing to out bad advice, even if they aren't always 100% cuddly about it.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> Rinse and repeat. That pretty much captures it.
> 
> Usually person B is only a month or two removed from the "I just got my first retriever" post and is already giving training advice. It takes a while for folks to figure out who here knows what they are doing. In the meantime, for the dogs' sake, I am glad those who do are willing to out bad advice, even if they aren't always 100% cuddly about it.


Yep, and the point is that if you ask all these folks that keep talking about mean people who it was they were talking about, you would get very differerent responses. 
I think folks just need to put on their big boy pants and take good advice wherever they can get it, even from the old crotchety grumps that post here. ;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Very experienced poster gave advice and the the new poster took offense at one word for a description which new poster probably didn't have enough experience to understand. Experienced poster-why bother. Down the road the new poster will probably find out it was good advice. I don't see the experienced posters slamming noobs-I see a difference in understanding and hearing what they want to hear.


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

If you have experience great! Remember the time when you didn't know so much?? 
People know that newbies to training are bringing a knife to a gun fight.
So why chastise them???
It's like running a Junior hunter in AA stakes an expecting results.
Treat people with kindness and respect no matter what exposure they have.

It takes more than your knowledge of the game to get through to people.
Just because you can slam someone, doesn't mean you should!

Malcolm

It's a shame to watch us kill the future of our own sport!
Take a deep breath and think, before you blow out someone's candle.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> I don't see the experienced posters slamming noobs-I see a difference in understanding and hearing what they want to hear.


I agree.

Frankly, I don't see a lot of unprovoked meanness here. People often take offense where it is obvious to most neutral parties that none was meant and react badly, leading to an escalation to snarkiness from time to time, but I really don't think it is a problem for a grown up. I can think of dozens of message boards that are way worse on noobs. Folks here genuinely try to help and give a lot of free time and effort to do so. I can understand why they may react a little harshly to inexperienced folks who call them out for doing so but I hope they don't give up.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> I agree.
> 
> Frankly, I don't see a lot of unprovoked meanness here. People often take offense where it is obvious to most neutral parties that none was meant and react badly, leading to an escalation to snarkiness from time to time, but I really don't think it is a problem for a grown up. I can think of dozens of message boards that are way worse on noobs. Folks here genuinely try to help and give a lot of free time and effort to do so. I can understand why they may react a little harshly to inexperienced folks who call them out for doing so but I hope they don't give up.


Agree. I think some people need to put on their big boy/girl pants and quit whining.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Malcolm said:


> If you have experience great! Remember the time when you didn't know so much??
> People know that newbies to training are bringing a knife to a gun fight.
> So why chastise them???
> It's like running a Junior hunter in AA stakes an expecting results.
> ...


Thanks for that Malcolm. Especially your last sentence. I might steal it foru sig line as a reminder to myself!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

After reading all the diatribe that came before me, some of it is concerning but not surprising. This forum IMHO is not meant to be a panacea for all your training problems but a venue (forum) to discuss openly, whether you are a "newbie" or an "oldie" or in between, your points that you think are directed to the thread!!! in all honesty and sincerety to assist the person who started the thread. But there are netiquette "rules" or guidelines to follow. The biggest one is respect! for each other,however feeble or useless you feel the other person's comment maybe, or the person, to counter the comment or the person, instead of malaligning the thread, constructive comments are a much better avenue to take. Learn to disagree respectfully is an important attribute. Here is a funny clip on netiquette in a forum setting. Not all of this applies to our forum but some is worthwhile. Hopefully after this dialogue we can learn from this thread and step forward to keep the forum going on a mature level and provide guidence to whomever!!!. IMHO

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> After reading all the diatribe that came before me, some of it is concerning but not surprising. This forum IMHO is not meant to be a panacea for all your training problems but a venue (forum) to discuss openly, whether you are a "newbie" or an "oldie" or in between, your points that you think are directed to the thread!!! in all honesty and sincerety to assist the person who started the thread. But there are netiquette "rules" or guidelines to follow. The biggest one is respect! for each other,however feeble or useless you feel the other person's comment maybe, or the person, to counter the comment or the person, instead of malaligning the thread, constructive comments are a much better avenue to take. Learn to disagree respectfully is an important attribute. Here is a funny clip on netiquette in a forum setting. Not all of this applies to our forum but some is worthwhile. Hopefully after this dialogue we can learn from this thread and step forward to keep the forum going on a mature level and provide guidence to whomever!!!. IMHO
> 
> http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum


It has been around for a while but here is another

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

JDogger said:


> It has been around for a while but here is another
> 
> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting


Good one!!!!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> It takes more than your knowledge of the game to get through to people.
> Just because you can slam someone, doesn't mean you should!


I certainly agree it's hard to get through to people. You can be a good dog person and not be able to get through to people. When you tell someone what to do to fix a problem, or you see an aspiring trainer having marginal or less standards, or worse, changing or varying standards and you bring it to their attention, is it slamming the person? It's honest advice coming from experience not meant as personal criticism, yet many get so defensive. I can't say I understand it, they haven't trained a dog to a high level, but they get defensive from someone giving advice who has been there and done that.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> And that's it in a nutshell. When folks with more experience try and step in and say whoa let's not rush into this and add advice *they have gained from experience*, it is often interpreted as being mean spirited. It gets old real fast. It is a wonder anyone with experience cares to give any kind of advice at all any more.
> 
> And if people can't tell a smart alec remark from one with the intent of being mean, what is one to do?


one could quit being a smart alec, because, after all, one is only showing how smart they are not. no value added regards....-Paul


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Malcolm said:


> It's a shame to watch us kill the future of our own sport!
> Take a deep breath and think, before you blow out someone's candle.


 
Now that is SIG Quote worthy.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Dustin D said:


> Now that is SIG Quote worthy.


Yes it is. Now make it yours.  JD


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Malcolm said:


> If you have experience great! Remember the time when you didn't know so much??
> People know that newbies to training are bringing a knife to a gun fight.
> So why chastise them???
> It's like running a Junior hunter in AA stakes an expecting results.
> ...


You know, I keep forgetting how cool you are Malcolm. A very fine post.
　
.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Malcolm said:


> If you have experience great! Remember the time when you didn't know so much??
> People know that newbies to training are bringing a knife to a gun fight.
> So why chastise them???
> It's like running a Junior hunter in AA stakes an expecting results.
> ...



Malcolm,

Outstanding Post. Thank you for that!!!!!

Janet


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Ok so I've seen several "atta boys" given to Malcolm for his post. It's all fine and dandy, ooey gooey, great for a sig and stuff but my first thought when I read it was, " who's chastising new folks for asking a question"?
I could be wrong but I've been here quite a while and cant say that i remember ever actually seeing it happen to someone new genuinely asking and wanting to learn.

On another note and not directed at Malcolm:
Really now, the whiney baby bs is bordering on ridiculous. My 6 yo has thicker skin than a lot of you. The idea that a person doesn't have the dogs best interest in mind when they call you a moron? Well, if you take the time to listen to it, constructive criticism can teach you a ton and you'll usually remember it longer.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

achiro said:


> Ok so I've seen several "atta boys" given to Malcolm for his post. It's all fine and dandy, ooey gooey, great for a sig and stuff but my first thought when I read it was, " who's chastising new folks for asking a question"?
> I could be wrong but I've been here quite a while and cant say that i remember ever actually seeing it happen to someone new genuinely asking and wanting to learn.
> 
> On another note and not directed at Malcolm:
> Really now, the whiney baby bs is bordering on ridiculous. My 6 yo has thicker skin than a lot of you. The idea that a person doesn't have the dogs best interest in mind when they call you a moron? Well, if you take the time to listen to it, constructive criticism can teach you a ton and you'll usually remember it longer.


Where is the "like" button.


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

achiro said:


> Well, if you take the time to listen to it, constructive criticism can teach you a ton and you'll usually remember it longer.


Now this is a sig line. 

I'm in a camera club and the beginner photographers want to hear "nice photo, good job". The advanced photographers want to hear "this photo could be improved by ..." Guess which group shows the most improvement six months later?


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

achiro said:


> Ok so I've seen several "atta boys" given to Malcolm for his post. It's all fine and dandy, ooey gooey, great for a sig and stuff but my first thought when I read it was, " who's chastising new folks for asking a question"?
> I could be wrong but I've been here quite a while and cant say that i remember ever actually seeing it happen to someone new genuinely asking and wanting to learn.
> 
> On another note and not directed at Malcolm:
> Really now, the whiney baby bs is bordering on ridiculous. My 6 yo has thicker skin than a lot of you. The idea that a person doesn't have the dogs best interest in mind when they call you a moron? Well, if you take the time to listen to it, constructive criticism can teach you a ton and you'll usually remember it longer.


We have so missed you. 

But let's get back to being serious here since this a seeeerious forum and all the interactions here so strongly influences the way we live our lives and should basically dictate them.

Achiro, how would you rate a response....oh say...one like this:



paul young said:


> one could quit being a smart alec, because, after all, one is only showing how smart they are not. no value added regards....-Paul


Constructive? Mean? Not able to interact with people socially on a normal level so chooses to take it out on people on an Internet forum? 

There are plenty of people here who are witty and use the forum to fuss around with their friends who we have gotten to know over the years. And suddenly here comes a new crowd who wants to change the culture of the forum and get offended by what is has been generally accepted for years. Not all of course, some can appreciate it it for what it is and recognize and embrace the culture. And there are those who do not. What is one to do? I find it depressing. 

We are trying to fight for it but the value of the forum as it was is declining rapidly. So sad.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

achiro said:


> Ok so I've seen several "atta boys" given to Malcolm for his post. It's all fine and dandy, ooey gooey, great for a sig and stuff but my first thought when I read it was, " who's chastising new folks for asking a question"?
> I could be wrong but I've been here quite a while and cant say that i remember ever actually seeing it happen to someone new genuinely asking and wanting to learn.
> 
> On another note and not directed at Malcolm:
> Really now, the whiney baby bs is bordering on ridiculous. My 6 yo has thicker skin than a lot of you. The idea that a person doesn't have the dogs best interest in mind when they call you a moron? Well, if you take the time to listen to it, constructive criticism can teach you a ton and you'll usually remember it longer.



I was one of those that appreciated what Malcolm posted. I feel I come on here wearing my big girl panties and have thick skin and don't take things personally.

I also strongly believe that everyone has their right to their own opinions. But how is calling someone a moron you might disagree with in the best interest of a dog? 

I completely agree with your last sentence. I believe that there is alot of constructive criticism given here but personally attacking someone with name calling is distructive criticism and is not productive in any way.

JMHO

Janet


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Thank God for Gooser and Duk4me! I love my new profile pic it so goes with everything anymore.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

achiro said:


> Ok so I've seen several "atta boys" given to Malcolm for his post. It's all fine and dandy, ooey gooey, great for a sig and stuff but my first thought when I read it was, " who's chastising new folks for asking a question"?
> I could be wrong but I've been here quite a while and cant say that i remember ever actually seeing it happen to someone new genuinely asking and wanting to learn.
> 
> On another note and not directed at Malcolm:
> Really now, the whiney baby bs is bordering on ridiculous. My 6 yo has thicker skin than a lot of you. The idea that a person doesn't have the dogs best interest in mind when they call you a moron? Well, if you take the time to listen to it, constructive criticism can teach you a ton and you'll usually remember it longer.


I can't believe you own a black lab..... you must be the only non-sensitive black lab owner.....


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

sandyg said:


> Now this is a sig line.
> 
> I'm in a camera club and the beginner photographers want to hear "nice photo, good job". The advanced photographers want to hear "this photo could be improved by ..." Guess which group shows the most improvement six months later?


Great point.

It reminds me of attending a handling/training seminar. If you are a handler, you spend several days having every little thing you do wrong pointed out by Lardy, Attar, Burns, etc and then discussed by the whole group of observers. Sometimes it is enough to make you wonder why you paid for all that abuse. However if you listen, take the comments in the spirit in which they are intended--even if the delivery comes without hugs-- and work to incorporate them, you will greatly improve as a handler or trainer. IME, there is usually one handler that wants to argue about everything and firmly believes that they are right and Andy or whomever is wrong. They must have just signed up to be told how great they are and not to improve but IMO have only wasted a lot of time and money.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> I was one of those that appreciated what Malcolm posted. I feel I come on here wearing my big girl panties and have thick skin and don't take things personally.
> 
> I also strongly believe that everyone has their right to their own opinions. But how is calling someone a moron you might disagree with in the best interest of a dog?
> 
> ...


Janet, you completly missed my point.



Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I can't believe you own a black lab..... you must be the only non-sensitive black lab owner.....


that's because I don't own a black lab. I have before and have a yellow now but have had chessies for 20 years.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

sandyg said:


> Now this is a sig line.
> 
> I'm in a camera club and the beginner photographers want to hear "nice photo, good job". The advanced photographers want to hear "this photo could be improved by ..." Guess which group shows the most improvement six months later?


But....

The folks in the camera club aren't hacking around on the subject of their photos.

and regardless of nice job or could be improved by...

I would expect the beginner who knows little to nothing shows the most improvement when compared to the advanced photographer. Just like the beginning dog shows the most improvement when compared to the advanced dogs. The beginner has more room to grow and the improvements get more subtle as you advance (at least in dog training).


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

JDogger said:


> Yes it is. Now make it yours.  JD


I would but I'm a noob here and I think someone else already asked


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> But, one thing I have noticed is the demise of the experienced trianer here with a proven track record. Few remain. That should be a concern to all of those who daily view RTF.


Anyone care to discuss who? And why?


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## RailRoadRetrievers (Feb 4, 2004)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> distructive
> JMHO
> 
> Janet


destructive......

Just helping, just helping......


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Can we all just treat our "Enter" key like our "Nick"/"Burn" button?

Neither should ever be pressed in anger, frustration, vengeance or "just to show who is boss".

Jim


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

T-Pines said:


> Can we all just treat our "Enter" key like our "Nick"/"Burn" button?
> 
> Neither should ever be pressed in anger, frustration, vengeance or "just to show who is boss".
> 
> Jim


Very astute...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> We have so missed you.
> 
> But let's get back to being serious here since this a seeeerious forum and all the interactions here so strongly influences the way we live our lives and should basically dictate them.
> 
> ...


Melanie,

What in your estimation is the primary cause of this decline?

What would you suggest that I, as admin of RTF do to reverse or fix this?

What would you suggest that the users of RTF do to revers or fix this?

Thanks, Chris


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## agengo02 (Nov 3, 2009)

Actually good and level headed points made by both sides. A fresh change to the normal discussions!

I like the camera class analogy; a new trainer can/will probably go further with encouragement in the beginning (much like training a dog perhaps) and once further along more breaking down the actions piece by piece. 

Would you ever scold a pup for not finishing a new command?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I noticed on the poll that the majority of the "yes" votes are from established users, so it is not the new people voting for change.

I also noticed that "certain people" complaining about change have not voted "no"

I really appreciate this site, I would not have advanced my dog's training as well without it. There are plenty of places to go to talk about hunting, but this is the only place I've found where you can get training advice from people who know what they are doing. It it not all that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff---all you have to do is look at the post history of a responder, or look up their credentials elsewhere.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

achiro said:


> Janet, you completly missed my point.



If that is the case, could you help me understand the point you were trying to make?


Janet


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I have posted here a lot!
I have said some perty stupid things.

I dont think I have ever added anything intelligent to a thread.

I have been called DOOOFUS,,Dumbarse,, sexy, tubby, skinny,Gay, straight,screwed up, careing, tyrant, meansprited, Goober

Its been said I dont get it,, I get it,, I shoulda been careful and NOT got it,, Better get some help to get rid of it!!!

Its all pretty funny ,cause it has come from people that for the most part have never met me..
Its funny cuse theys all dont know I hold a PHD in Harmonioustensitivty..
AND STILL MY DOGS DONT SIT!!!!!!!
Everbody just needs to lighten up!!!


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

P.S.

Leave Miss Janet Alone!

Achrio,, you GOOBER!!!! ")")


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What happened to "TIME OUT"

I seem to member sometimes the Yoda master would banish me--er some-- to the time out corner!


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> P.S.
> 
> Leave Miss Janet Alone!
> 
> Achrio,, you GOOBER!!!! ")")


I love it when you add your very unique outlook to a post.

You always make me laugh.

Janet


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

achiro said:


> Ok so I've seen several "atta boys" given to Malcolm for his post. It's all fine and dandy, ooey gooey, great for a sig and stuff but my first thought when I read it was, " who's chastising new folks for asking a question"?
> I could be wrong but I've been here quite a while and cant say that i remember ever actually seeing it happen to someone new genuinely asking and wanting to learn.
> 
> On another note and not directed at Malcolm:
> Really now, the whiney baby bs is bordering on ridiculous. My 6 yo has thicker skin than a lot of you. The idea that a person doesn't have the dogs best interest in mind when they call you a moron? Well, if you take the time to listen to it, constructive criticism can teach you a ton and you'll usually remember it longer.


??????? You have issues. )
How can you come to the conclusion there questions aren't genuine??
You're pre-judging peoples character. 
It could be there first dog and or new to Hunting????
Calling someone a whiney baby because they don't want to be offended????
It's not about how thick someone's skin is!
It's about not taking pot shots at people.

Just because someone can take it, doesn't mean they want to be insulted.
This can progress in only one direction (DOWN).

1. They see you, and it escalates. (Wait, we have the safety of the internet)
2. They walk away without saying anything and never come back.
3. They take it, but start a post about all the A-holes in the FT sport.

Either way it's damaging to the sport.

We need to be conscious of how we conduct ourselves and the image it portray's.
We have enough anti's chipping away at our sport and dog game activities.
Pull people in, don't push them out.
I don't care what road they take, as long they arrive.

Next thread: How many poeple have you encouraged to hunt, train, and compete with thier dogs.
Geeze, this is draining!!!!!! (((


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I have been called DOOOFUS


There are 2 Os and 2 Ss in the word you doofuss...;-)


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

EdA said:


> There are 2 Os and 2 Ss in the word you doofuss...;-)


Don't be a smart alec.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ed

Stay on Topic!!!

Spellin is a hole nuther thread.



Goosie


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

I wasn't going to wade through 5 pages of....stuff, to see if it's already been mentioned but as Chris A. says, the RTF is cyclical. There are peaks and valleys, times when there seems to be a lot of great, positive commentary and other times when there is a lot more negativity and griping going on.

I think if you went back and looked at threads from Jan/Feb of every year you'd see very similar things to what's happening now. The winter doldrums has everybody knotted up and grumpy.

This too shall pass regards.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> Ed
> 
> Stay on Topic!!!
> 
> ...


Did you not hear what I said to Ed?! Do NOT be a smart alec. It offends some people here so it must stop.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Did you not hear what I said to Ed?! Do NOT be a smart alec. It offends some people here so it must stop.


Talk about black pot callin tea pot purple!!

DidI get that sayin wrong?

Gooser


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Malcolm said:


> ??????? You have issues. )
> How can you come to the conclusion there questions aren't genuine??
> You're pre-judging peoples character.
> It could be there first dog and or new to Hunting????
> ...


CHEESE AND CRACKERS MALCOLM!!! You are totally turning my words around so here is another try. 
Show me anywhere that an experienced trainer has chastised a noob for asking a training question. You are acting like its a regular occurrence and I'm saying if it happens at all that it's rare.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

achiro said:


> CHEESE AND CRACKERS MALCOLM!!! You are totally turning my words around so here is another try.
> Show me anywhere that an experienced trainer has chastised a noob for asking a training question. You are acting like its a regular occurrence and I'm saying if it happens at all that it's rare.


I believe you twisted malcolm's words. He was talking about newbs getting treated badly. He didn't say they/we were getting treated badly for asking training questions.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> What happened to "TIME OUT"
> 
> I seem to member sometimes the Yoda master would banish me--er some-- to the time out corner!













.....


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

achiro said:


> CHEESE AND CRACKERS MALCOLM!!! You are totally turning my words around so here is another try.
> Show me anywhere that an experienced trainer has chastised a noob for asking a training question. You are acting like its a regular occurrence and I'm saying if it happens at all that it's rare.


Are you even reading the stuff you write????
The experience level of the person making the "Coy" comment is irrelevant.
No, I'm not going to dig into the archives.

This entire post of 18 + pages isn't an example of a problem???


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Malcolm said:


> Are you even reading the stuff you write????
> The experience level of the person making the "Coy" comment is irrelevant.
> No, I'm not going to dig into the archives.
> 
> This entire post of 18 + pages isn't an example of a problem???


Ok now this is getting silly. you ask if I read the stuff i write, my question is do you? I'm going to post it again below just to be sure because if talking about newbies bringing a knife to a gun fight meant anything other than how one with experience treats one without i missed it all together. Then of course there is the part about killing the future of our own sport. I guess you meant the noobs picking on the noobs there? Whatever you want to try I guess but the point again is that I see all the folks whining about being mistreated and its just laughable because it couldnt be further from the truth. There is a ton of help here, friends to be made, tears to be shared, and a whole lot of other treasures available. I'm just not sure a person will get to experience any of it if all they want to do is whine about how they were "treated by that one meanie that one time."


Malcolm said:


> If you have experience great! Remember the time when you didn't know so much??
> People know that newbies to training are bringing a knife to a gun fight.
> So why chastise them???
> It's like running a Junior hunter in AA stakes an expecting results.
> ...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Ed
> 
> Stay on Topic!!!
> 
> ...


Don't get Fallon ramped up on spelling....

/Paul


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> .....


Oh Ken, as always levity! Maybe it will help!!


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

EdA said:


> There are 2 Os and 2 Ss in the word you doofuss...;-)


That's dufus you dufuses. I know because I'm a writer.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Becky Mills said:


> That's dufus you dufuses. .


With all due respect Miss Becky, that's pronounced duhfuss, that goober Gooser is a dewfuss!


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

I've got an idea...Start a sticky and everytime someone is an unwarranted [email protected]$$, post that quote on there so everyone can chastise them for fun.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

Red Solo Cup!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> I've got an idea...Start a sticky and everytime someone is an unwarranted [email protected]$$, post that quote on there so everyone can chastise them for fun.


I'm in!


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Good idea, but what are the groundrules for being allowed to make [email protected]$$ comments? Do you have to have trained a dog to a certain level? Do you have to have over X number of posts? Do you have to have a join date before a certain date? Do you have to live in Colorado? Do you have to have a yeller dog? I would put a smiley dealio here but I can't figure that out.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

Becky Mills said:


> That's dufus you dufuses. I know because I'm a writer.


There's always one in the crowd who needs to be a show off.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

How do you use the spell check for replys? I actually tried (upper right corner) but I got a real odd response. Maybe Ken Bora can tell me as he knows how to use all the buttons.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

To paraphrase the character Dr. Yen Lo (The Manchurian Candidate):

_Always with a liittle humor_


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Wayne Nutt said:


> How do you use the spell check for replys? I actually tried (upper right corner) but I got a real odd response. Maybe Ken Bora can tell me as he knows how to use all the buttons.


Maybe I can help. 

In your reply box, right click on any word you typed and select the "Check Spelling" item. From then on every word spelled wrong will be underlined. Right click the underlined word and you'll get a selection of replacement words. Most likely the word you want will be there, unless you really spelled it wrong. It won't fix the wrong spelling of a word incorrectly used but correctly spelled (e.g. "two" when you meant "too").


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Don't get Fallon ramped up on spelling....
> 
> /Paul


You tell um /Paul

john


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Sandyg. I had to download ispell. That apparently was my problem.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

If I were the OP I would be pulling my hair out right now. I had read a number of the first posts and then not been back for a day or two. I started to read them backwards and by about page 15 I had to go back and read the original post to see exactly what this had started out as. The original poster raised some questions that I really have not seen answered. Maybe I am just dumb and couldn't separate them from some of the other fun and games. Perhaps it is cabin fever that has got me. I do appreciate the majority of questions posted and even after almost 20 years of playing with my dogs I can still learn from people like Dennis, Ted and Evan that put themselves out there to really help others. I am not on here to critize someone else's ideas or posts. I did go to the post on the water blinds as Dennis suggested. The pictures were great and the discussion around different angles provided food for thought. Whether you thought it was an AA blind really is not the point, discussing how you would run it, how you might change it and how a person new to the sport could get their dog to a higher level were what I was interested in.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

ebenezer said:


> If I were the OP I would be pulling my hair out right now. I had read a number of the first posts and then not been back for a day or two. I started to read them backwards and by about page 15 I had to go back and read the original post to see exactly what this had started out as. The original poster raised some questions that I really have not seen answered. Maybe I am just dumb and couldn't separate them from some of the other fun and games. Perhaps it is cabin fever that has got me. I do appreciate the majority of questions posted and even after almost 20 years of playing with my dogs I can still learn from people like Dennis, Ted and Evan that put themselves out there to really help others. I am not on here to critize someone else's ideas or posts. I did go to the post on the water blinds as Dennis suggested. The pictures were great and the discussion around different angles provided food for thought. Whether you thought it was an AA blind really is not the point, discussing how you would run it, how you might change it and how a person new to the sport could get their dog to a higher level were what I was interested in.


Like




.


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