# Top Dogs/Weakest Circuit?



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

do you believe the top dogs who run the weakest circuit year round would have close to the same amount of AA points if they ran in Texas or the SE in the Winter or the Midwest in the summer?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

This could get good.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

What's the weakest circuit again? 

I have a feeling it's not Minnesota. Unfortunately I only live about 15 miles to the west... :-(


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

So, if a dog who ran in TX and the midwest were to run in TX and the midwest, would that dog have the same number of points?

hiding now........


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> This could get good.


Where's my popcorn?


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

If you're bored, why don't you just start up a "Check out my new Silver Lab" or "Why Goldens are inferior to Labs" post?

Really?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Could you please tell me where the weakest circuit is? It is well known that I don't mind travel, and I do understand that I am the weakest link.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Rick_C said:


> If you're bored, why don't you just start up a "Check out my new Silver Lab" or "Why Goldens are inferior to Labs" post?
> 
> Really?


Geez Rick, I'm giggling here a bit. Did I hit a nerve there since you are on the west coast? Are you trying to tell us something? 

Honestly I am not trying to start anything but one has to admit there are some areas where you have 100+ open dogs week in and week out and then you have some areas where you have 60 week in and week out.

It is my opinion that my question has some validity. If you don't want to stretch your neck out and offer your opinion I can respect that. You also have the choice to give a one word answer, yes or no.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Or what the hell are you talking about. I would also like to know where the weakest circuit is so I could go there and run.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Yes.

With the ten word minimum I needed to add a sentence.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Well first you would have to define which circuit you think is the weakest. Secondly, a dog only gets points if it beats the competition.

It sounds like you think the West Coast is the weakest circuit.

So hmmmmm......lets take some of the "best of the west".

Shaq-I believe he has been a Nat'l Finalist multiple times. Therefore, I would think that proves he can hang with the other "best ofs".

Creek Robber-Nat'l finalist multiple times. I am pretty sure his record at Nat'ls speaks for itself.

Carbon-Nat'l Winner. Ditto to above comments.

Chopper-Nat'l Winner. Ditto again.

So tell me again, which circuit did you think was the weakest? List the top 10 dogs in those circuits. Chances are, those dogs could compete EASILY in ANY circuits. MOST of those dogs on that list are the ones that have q'd to run Nat'ls and end up being finalists.

WRL


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Weakest circuit, dunno. But who would choose Texas if they had other options. Week after week of of 100+ dog stakes. Who needs that brain damage? Those poor Texans, I feel their pain.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm wondering what the motovation of the question is. Are you trying to diminish or deflate the record of dogs like Max, Carbon, Chopper, Auggie, Ritz and Shooter? I ran against those dogs and believe me, when they won, it didn't matter if it was sixty or a hundred dogs, they ran going away. Now I'm running in Texas an am very impressed with the quality of dogs, number of good dogs and difficulty of test, but I believe any of the dogs I mentioned plus a few others would win just as often here, but we'll never know. 

John


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Alls you gots ta do is come to the line with a better dog and kick the crap out of the field. Seems simple. Don't matter where you do it do it?


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Interesting if you look at the last 3 Nationals, there were 2 finalists total that were from the West Coast.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Losthwy said:


> Weakest circuit, dunno. But who would choose Texas if they had other options. Week after week of of 100+ dog stakes. Who needs that brain damage? Those poor Texans, I feel their pain.


I looked at entryexpress. Of the 14 trials I looked at in Minnesota last year, the open ran:

77
93
99
104
98
119
86
107
94
84
67
97
89
93


Much lower numbers than Texas!


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> Interesting if you look at the last 3 Nationals, there were 2 finalists total that were from the West Coast.


Last 3 Nat'l meaning the last 18 months?

What about the last 10 Nat'ls?

WRL


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> Last 3 Nat'l meaning the last 18 months?
> 
> What about the last 10 Nat'ls?
> 
> WRL


I just looked back at the last three NRC's (2010, 2009, 2008).

Feel free to go back further and give more historical information.

The reality is that the last 3 years' National Opens have been dominated by the Central and East Coast regions.

I'm not in any way saying there aren't alot of good dogs out there because there clearly are.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> Could you please tell me where the weakest circuit is? It is well known that I don't mind travel, ...


Alaska. Small, like teeny, teeny, tiny, stakes.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> I just looked back at the last three NRC's (2010, 2009, 2008).
> 
> Feel free to go back further and give more historical information.
> 
> ...


So the Nat'l Ams aren't Nat'ls?

WRL


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Howard N said:


> Alaska. Small, like teeny, teeny, tiny, stakes.


Howard that would be considered part of the WC. haha


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Wade said:


> Howard that would be considered part of the WC. haha


I s'pose it is, but.......... I've gotta drive 3.5 days in the summer to get to the Seattle area. Slightly more than 4 days in the winter to reach it.

How many days do you have to drive to reach your next closest circuit?


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2011)

Wade said:


> do you believe the top dogs who run the weakest circuit year round would have close to the same amount of AA points if they ran in Texas or the SE in the Winter or the Midwest in the summer?


There was a recent thread about three pretty good dogs but not sure where it went? Oh wait, to hell in a handbasket?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> I just looked back at the last three NRC's (2010, 2009, 2008).
> 
> Feel free to go back further and give more historical information.
> 
> ...



Last year's Nat'l Am had 13 finalists and 4 were from the West Coast and 2009 had 17 finalists and 6 were from the West Coast. I didn't bother to go through a bunch of years. In order to truly get an accurate idea, you'd have to do more than 3 years and not just the Nat'l Open but the Nat'l Am also.

WRL


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## Rudd (Jan 9, 2008)

Didn't Pirate, the year he was the High Point Open Dog (two years ago?), go down to Louisiana for the last trial of that circuit and fly home with a Blue Ribbon?

In addition to those WRL listed, Pirate, Shaq, Kimber, Merlyn have all been top competitors and would be anywhere. Let's not forget Fargo, a huge contributor to the FT world, was from the "weakest circuit". These just being the dogs I know of, I am sure there are many more who would compete and get the same results anywhere they go.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> Where's my popcorn?


With butter, right?


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

This is just silly, everybody KNOWS the SEC is the strongest circuit. ARRRRR Conference


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Howard N said:


> Alaska. Small, like teeny, teeny, tiny, stakes.


True enough, but you know you can take either of your dogsnand kick some Lower 48 ass!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> True enough, but you know you can take either of your dogsnand kick some Lower 48 ass!


And..... vice versa.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

No such thing as a weak circuit any longer, might have been years ago,but because of the depth of the pros running and the fact that many run in the northern circuits in the summer and the southern circuits in the winter, its very hard to avoid running into them...

there are many who have come west and run the So Cal/ Ariz circuit and come away shaking their heads,mainly because the terrain is unlike any found on any other circuit

then everyone thought that Alaska was the easy circuit but you always had to beat Roy McFall,..now its some guy named Howard Niemi

One of the other reasons its hard to win outside of your circuit, is that some of the local dogs have a distinct advantage on grounds that they have trained on or the owners have access that others may not

The Nationals used to be on neutral sites, but even that is disappearing...

there are very few dogs that run across the country, mainly because the pros that train them have their winter home and summer home


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Eric Fryer said:


> This is just silly, everybody KNOWS the SEC is the strongest circuit. ARRRRR Conference


Go Gators.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

This thread is useless without pictures.










That's what this was about right? Mud slinging?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> No such thing as a weak circuit any longer, might have been years ago,but because of the depth of the pros running and the fact that many run in the northern circuits in the summer and the southern circuits in the winter, its very hard to avoid running into them...
> 
> there are many who have come west and run the So Cal/ Ariz circuit and come away shaking their heads,mainly because the terrain is unlike any found on any other circuit
> 
> ...


THANKS Bon for your opinion. Getting a different point of view and thoughts on a subject like this is interesting.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Please remember it's all about YOUR opinion, so no one needs to get their noses bent out of shape. Have some fun, point things out like WRL has done or Bon.

WRL you are correct, with no disrespect to the WC, based on entry numbers alone and the Pro's that run there and I do not mean that in a derogatory way, think numbers.

It is my opinion that, again based on shear numbers, dogs running in Texas or the SE (winter) and the Midwest (summer) have the toughest go on a weekly basis. 

Have some fun with this and be kind.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

I'd add some to Bon's observations with a few of my own. 

Tough circuits usually have several dogs capable of winning, many times what they don't have is judges capable of bringing the best to the fore in terms of performance, hence the judges go to the safe choice in the winner's circle. & the pro's who have an exceptional string are usually a temporary situation, as after the winning streak they end up with more sow's ears than silk purses to train. 

Several years back one of the successful competitors from this circuit, at least in points garnered in more than 1 venue, shows up a couple of circuits beyond his normal range. I asked him why & he said he saw a weakness in the caliber of dogs on that particular circuit. I think weakness in a circuit is now only an illusion as better transport, accomodations & business plans will quickly fill any void competitively that shows up. 

I started in the sport in MT, there were no pro's except the travelers, & the trials were small. But no one came in & cleaned house as there always seemed to be a local dog or two that was on their A game. 

There are also some outstanding Amateur competitors who, between dogs, will cause the level of competition to go down a notch or two. So while it is a discussion worthy of a beer or two, there are many intangibles that go into the making of a high quality circuit beyond the scope of the OP.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I didn't know that the WC is considered to be a weak circuit. If you think so, come on out and run your dogs in our trials. The clubs need your entry money.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the weakest circuit is the one that you are not running at....


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> There was a recent thread about three pretty good dogs but not sure where it went? Oh wait, to hell in a handbasket?


Can't imagine this thread could be related to THAT thread. No way, nah...well hmmm.


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## big gunner (Mar 1, 2010)

I would like to add this to the pot.

Are specialties FT's easier (at all the stakes) than a regular FT. ??? 

Ex. Golden specialty,Flat Coat, Chessie, or Lab


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Wade said:


> Geez Rick, I'm giggling here a bit. Did I hit a nerve there since you are on the west coast? Are you trying to tell us something?


I'm glad you got a giggle out of my comment because that was the intention. I just knew where a thread like this would go.

I've not stood at the line of a field trial with a dog by my side yet, in any circuit, which is why I didn't lend my opinion on your question.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

big gunner said:


> I would like to add this to the pot.
> 
> Are specialties FT's easier (at all the stakes) than a regular FT. ???
> 
> Ex. Golden specialty,Flat Coat, Chessie, or Lab


I have only first hand experience with the Golden Retriever National Specialty Field Trial. We ran in a few when we were running our Goldens back in 2003-2004 (or it may have been 2002-2003). I don't have any current first hand experience. Melanie will have to tell us if the more current GRCA specialty field trials are easier than what you might get at a weekend all-breed trial. 

You could say that the annual GRCA National Field Specialty is "easier competition" in that only Goldens can be entered. Goldens are competing against Goldens so Goldens are going to get the ribbons, the points, and also become Qualified All Age.

Whether the stakes at their specialty are dumbed down compared to tests set up at 'regular' all-breed weekend trials would be a matter of opinion. Lab folks might say they are easier. 

I do know that when we went to the GRCA specialities, we did see a lot of Goldens running (er, some walking, some ambling in a confused daze), that had no business being entered in any field event. It was painful to see. I saw a lack of training, lack of talent, lack of desire, and no experience by dog or its handler. I guess some owners entered their dogs just to support the specialty. 

On the other hand, back then there were some good field Goldens running -- not many, but a few. Enough to capture 1st-4th placements. 

The competitive field Golden list has always been a short one. There weren't many FC, AFC, FC-AFC Goldens running back in 2002-2004. There may be more FC or AFC Goldens today than then, but there still aren't many of them and I suspect they are closely related. I wish it was different, but it isn't. The gene pool for field Goldens is still very small. 

Just my opinions from being there back when, before we went to the Dark Side,


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

big gunner said:


> I would like to add this to the pot.
> 
> Are specialties FT's easier (at all the stakes) than a regular FT. ???
> 
> Ex. Golden specialty,Flat Coat, Chessie, or Lab


Probably are due to less competition.

HOwever, in case you did not know, you MUST have a win in an ALL BREED FT in order to title.

WRL


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

WRL said:


> You MUST have a win in an ALL BREED FT in order to title.
> 
> WRL


Which could be the reason why so few Golden Retrievers make it to FC and/or AFC. 

Do you think AKC has this all-breed FT win requirement because they know that breed specialities are "easier" ? 

Helen


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

helencalif said:


> Which could be the reason why so few Golden Retrievers make it to FC and/or AFC.
> 
> Do you think AKC has this all-breed FT win requirement because they know that breed specialities are "easier" ?
> 
> Helen



I don't know if they think that they are easier or not, but anything that could limit the QUALITY of entries is going to raise a flag.

WRL


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Is there such a thing as a LAB specialty field trial??? If so, would Shaq, Pirate, Merlyn, Fargo, etc show up???


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Pirate and Merlyn might show up. 

Shaq is retired and Fargo is dead.

Helen


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I think I need to clarify this a bit or simplify.

Is it tougher to run against 100 dogs or 60 dogs?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Wade said:


> Is it tougher to run against 100 dogs or 60 dogs?


No, just more time consuming. Don't expect to be called back with one mistake in a 100 dog trial .


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Wade said:


> Is it tougher to run against 100 dogs or 60 dogs?


I don't think the amount of dogs means it is tougher; who your competition is that weekend is what makes a trial tough. There are only 4 placements so it only takes 4 better dogs having a good weekend which will keep you out of the ribbons and points. 

If you had asked about a lot of pro handlers running a lot of good dogs on the same test vs. the amateur with one good dog, that's a different story IMHO. 

Ask any amateur with a good dog. It is harder to get the FC than the AFC.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I like to participate in the chessie field specialty because there are almost no pros running in the open, qual or Derby. But you still have to beat the FC/AFC that participate and chessies that have all age points. And those Western Chessies can kick ass.

Still would like to know where this weak circuit is so I can run. You know where the judges give you the marks turn their head away when you run the blind and the dogs you compete against are 6 months old in the open, amat and qual. There are great dogs all over and great handlers all over.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I'll simplify a little more.

Is it tougher to place in 100 dog stake or a 60 dog stake?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

2tall said:


> Is there such a thing as a LAB specialty field trial??? If so, would Shaq, Pirate, Merlyn, Fargo, etc show up???


I asked an "old timer" friend who has Chesapeakes, after participating in the Chessie speciality if there was a Lab specialty. He said " Yeah, every weekend."


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

John Lash said:


> I asked an "old timer" friend who has Chesapeakes, after participating in the Chessie speciality if there was a Lab specialty. He said " Yeah, every weekend."


LMAO !!!!!


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Wade said:


> I'll simplify a little more.
> 
> Is it tougher to place in 100 dog stake or a 60 dog stake?


If the same top 3 or 4 dogs are entered in each, equally tough...


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

John Lash said:


> If the same top 3 or 4 dogs are entered in each, equally tough...


I respect your opinion John but I will respectfully disagree and add to that, Not a Chance


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Wade said:


> I'll simplify a little more.
> 
> Is it tougher to place in 100 dog stake or a 60 dog stake?


Dude, let me ask you a question. Can you read?

Helen ALREADY answered your question.

There are TWELVE DOG trials that I would not want to run!!! 

The difficulty of getting points (GETTING PLACMENTS) has to do with who is entered!

WRL


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Here's an idea..
Go run some 100 dog Opens, and then go run some 60 dog Opens.
See how many of each in which you win/place
Do this for many years.

That should give you an educated opinion based on personal experience....


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

WRL said:


> Dude, let me ask you a question. Can you read?
> 
> Helen ALREADY answered your question.
> 
> ...


What about you since the thread was some what edited/simpilfied?


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

John Lash said:


> I asked an "old timer" friend who has Chesapeakes, after participating in the Chessie speciality if there was a Lab specialty. He said " Yeah, every weekend."


Ho, ho, ho.

This thread is being hijacked, everyone remain calm. Are there FT in Guam or other U.S. territories?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Wade said:


> What about you since the thread was some what edited/simpilfied?


Its not edited or simplified.

Its clear what you want. Why don't you just ask for it?

What you want is someone to support your theory or supposition. You've gotten MULTIPLE people telling you the same thing. However, you don't want to hear that because it does not support your opinion. You'll continue throwing crap out there and trying to reword the question over and over until you FINALLY get a response that agrees with you.

WRL


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

WRL said:


> Its not edited or simplified.
> 
> Its clear what you want. Why don't you just ask for it?
> 
> ...


No, no not at all. Please go back to the original question. I asked a simple question then followed it up with replies that included the word "opinion". 

My opinion is that the toughest place to run is in Texas and the SE in the Winter and the Midwest in the Summer. It is MY opinion that if the top dogs from the West ran in these places on a consistant basis their point totals would be different. It is also MY opinion that if you placed, let say, the Farmer and Rorem or say the Lardy and Attar truck in CA or WA the results would be different. Meaning they would be taking points away from dogs in that area.

You have the ability to give everyone your "opinion" as to where YOU think the weakest circuit is, take the top dogs from said area and place them in a different area and then give us YOUR opinion on whether or not YOU believe those dogs would have as many points as they do.

If you read the 2nd paragraph of my 2nd post you will read that "I am not trying to start anything". Now if you construe that MY opinion is "mudslinging" as one poster would have you believe then I guess I can't help that. All I am trying to do is get people to constructively debate whether or not, based on their OWN opinion, if top dogs from other areas ran in Texas, the SE and the Midwest where you are running against 100 dogs on a consistant basis, would they have the same number of points.

I am of the opinion that they would not. Now that is MY opinion, if yours differs from that so be it, I can respect that. Am I going to go into attack mode like some like to do? No, because it's one person's opinion. 

Now, would you like to give everyone YOUR opinion on the original question or would you like to continue to throw sticks and stones at me?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Wade said:


> No, no not at all. Please go back to the original question. I asked a simple question then followed it up with replies that included the word "opinion".
> 
> My opinion is that the toughest place to run is in Texas and the SE in the Winter and the Midwest in the Summer. It is MY opinion that if the top dogs from the West ran in these places on a consistant basis their point totals would be different. It is also MY opinion that if you placed, let say, the Farmer and Rorem or say the Lardy and Attar truck in CA or WA the results would be different. Meaning they would be taking points away from dogs in that area.
> 
> ...


My OPINION is that there is NO WEAKEST circuit. 

MY OPINION, is that you are trying to JUSTIFY something about the circuit you run in. 

MY OPINION, is that QUANTITY doesn't matter QUALITY matters.

WRL


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Wade said:


> My opinion is that the toughest place to run is in Texas and the SE in the Winter and the Midwest in the Summer. It is MY opinion that if the top dogs from the West ran in these places on a consistant basis their point totals would be different. It is also MY opinion that if you placed, let say, the Farmer and Rorem or say the Lardy and Attar truck in CA or WA the results would be different. Meaning they would be taking points away from dogs in that area.


There is zero reason for that to happen but several years back one of our local pro's went to TX for the early trials as he had a client there. 5 dogs for 3 trials - won all three with different dogs. During the week they hunted quail, he came back raving about how tough those pointers were!!!!!

To say that any of the top pro's would go into another area & get some points, you are probably correct. Just as happened in the TX case.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, there are weaker circuits. Northeast, Lower midwest, Mountain States. There are very good dogs there but not as many. There are many stakes with 20-40 dogs in them. The thing is there are too few trials these areas to really challenge for a high point championship. So any dog you see at the top of the list based in these areas had to spend some time playing with the big boys. 

It is like of like Butler, their conference isn't as tough as the big east, big ten or ACC (in most years) so you can question their record some but you cannot question that they are great because when they do play with the big boys they do very well.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

WRL said:


> So the Nat'l Ams aren't Nat'ls?
> 
> WRL


Correct.

The National is, the National. Which is often misnamed here on RTF as The National Open. With that comes better overall handlers than the National Am.

The toughest trials are where you have the largest number of successful Pros at the same trial.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Franco said:


> Correct.
> 
> The National is, the National. Which is often misnamed here on RTF as The National Open. With that comes better overall handlers than the National Am.
> 
> The toughest trials are where you have the largest number of successful Pros at the same trial.


Funny but the RFN calls it The Nat'l OPEN. Isn't that the reporting body for that event? 

I would think that the Nat'l Am IS a national event.....hence the name NATIONAL in its title.

WRL


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

A similar situation exists in Canada as well. The "National" is just that....the "National". It is often referred to as the National Open but that is clearly a misnomer.It's counterpart is the "National Amateur".Probably due to people feeling that they need to add "Open" to the title so that others will understand their reference.
Our Nationals tend to have larger entries,more Pros and in general a tougher level of competition compared to the National Amateur.Having said that however should not detract from some of the fine Amateurs competing in either event.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Thanks to everyone who gave an honest opinion of their thoughts.

Continued success to all who run their dogs this upcoming trial season.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Nate_C said:


> Yes, there are weaker circuits. Northeast, Lower midwest, *Mountain States*. There are very good dogs there but not as many. There are many stakes with 20-40 dogs in them. The thing is there are too few trials these areas to really challenge for a high point championship. So any dog you see at the top of the list based in these areas had to spend some time playing with the big boys.
> 
> It is like of like Butler, their conference isn't as tough as the big east, big ten or ACC (in most years) so you can question their record some but you cannot question that they are great because when they do play with the big boys they do very well.


Mountain States, I can't speak on the other states. Weak, that is not the case. I have been to events where there are well known pros running, some names have been mention previously on this thread. If you think it is weak pack your bags and have at it. The clubs could use your donation.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

WRL said:


> Funny but the RFN calls it The Nat'l OPEN. Isn't that the reporting body for that event?
> 
> I would think that the Nat'l Am IS a national event.....hence the name NATIONAL in its title.
> 
> WRL


I just looked at RN and AKC websites, they both call them the National Retriever Championship.

See for yourself:

http://www.theretrievernews.com/Nationals


http://www.akc.org/pdfs/events/nationals_performance.pdf

Here is a nice link:

http://www.akc.org/events/field_trials/retrievers/nrc/


Wish we were still getting that kind of coverage. The video is great.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

2tall said:


> Is there such a thing as a LAB specialty field trial??? If so, would Shaq, Pirate, Merlyn, Fargo, etc show up???





helencalif said:


> Pirate and Merlyn might show up.
> Shaq is retired and Fargo is dead.Helen





John Lash said:


> I asked an "old timer" friend who has Chesapeakes, after participating in the Chessie speciality if there was a Lab specialty. He said " Yeah, every weekend."



Sorry, I was trying to make light of what I find kind of a silly question. My point was that if a location or specialty makes it "easier" somebody has still got to have the best dog that day! I can go to a 10 dog trial, (I'm still running Q) and if my dog screws up in ways only he can, he is not going to win. If there are 50 and he does what he is capable of, he could win. There are still only 4 places and a handful of jams. No matter where you run you are either competitive that day or not. The dogs that get titles, FC, AFC or NFC, had to be pretty damn good pretty damn often to get there, whether they were at a 120 dog open in SC or a 25 dog field iin Alaska!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Wade said:


> My opinion is that the toughest place to run is in Texas and the SE in the Winter and the Midwest in the Summer. *It is MY opinion that if the top dogs from the West ran in these places on a consistant basis their point totals would be different.* It is also MY opinion that if you placed, let say, the Farmer and Rorem or say the Lardy and Attar truck in CA or WA the results would be different. Meaning they would be taking points away from dogs in that area.


Don't you think you're leaving out the possibility that the West coast dogs could/would likely take away some of the points from the TX, SE and MidWest dogs if they were to run the circuit there?


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Lilly (Sargenti's high point Open dog......and an unspayed bitch to boot) still had to beat all the other dogs on his truck, all the other pro's trucks, and a lot of incredible Amateurs, dogs that have mutiple _National_ finalist placements.


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## D. J. (Dec 21, 2010)

Since when does the number of dogs represent the true level of competion in a particular stake?? Why does the "Cream always rise to the top" no matter the number of dogs? Why do bored people always come up with this stuff?


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

Perhaps it could be that few of them have ever had AA competitive dogs.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I think Alaska might be the toughest place to run a trial....I mean where else do you get 18+ hours of daylight...makes for some very tired handlers...lol.
Wouldn't larger emntries create a need for a shorter first series? Time management might create a need for a less complex test. 
I would hope a pro with my dog would go to the easiest trials to give him and my dog the best chance to win. 
Of course my opinion doesn't count for much as I just ran my first derby a couple of weeks ago and we didn't get called back for the 3rd series...


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Gee, guys. Will you please agree that the West Coast is the weakest circuit so a lot of handlers will come out here and run their dogs. The end of August - mid-September- into October is a nice circuit. I heard those trials are real easy to win. 

Ha, ha, thanks for your entry fees,
Helen


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Losthwy said:


> Mountain States, I can't speak on the other states. Weak, that is not the case. I have been to events where there are well known pros running, some names have been mention previously on this thread. If you think it is weak pack your bags and have at it. The clubs could use your donation.


Actually I lived in Salt Lake for almost 5 years. Come on are you really saying that you thinking that the trials they run in the mountain states are of the exact same caliber as the upper mid west and say southern georgia in the winter. Read what I wrote. I said that there are some very good dogs their but not as many. There are some very good pros taking trucks of very good dogs to some of those trials but "not as many". Yes a trial with 40 starters, including 15 FC or AFC and 4 dogs on the high point list is not as tough as a trial with 100 starters including 25 FC or AFC and 10 dogs on the high point list. 

I know from personal experience it in the Mountain West area that it is a matter of distance. There are what 8-10 trials per season in Utah, colorado, Idaho, Wyoming and Montana all 8 hours apart. It is just to spread out to draw alot of people/dogs. Again there are some great dogs at every trail but not as many. This makes them a bit weaker but not weak or easy.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2011)

Nate_C said:


> Actually I lived in Salt Lake for almost 5 years. Come on are you really saying that you thinking that the trials they run in the mountain states are of the exact same caliber as the upper mid west and say southern georgia in the winter. Read what I wrote. I said that there are some very good dogs their but not as many.


OMG, are you and Wade...bleh, shake it off Melanie.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

So does more dogs absolutly mean weaker? Though I am not a FTer, it would seem to me that if there were 10-15 dogs of the caliber that could compete anywhere it would not matter if they were in a field of 100 mediocre aa dogs or 60 mediocre dogs, to break in to the points ya gottat beat the top end.

If a title is as valuable to people as it appears to be, and there was a circut that was actually year in and year out weaker, wouldn't a lot of people with dogs capable of doing the work, send their dog to a pro on that circuit (meaning more good dogs to the circut) or travel there themselves for a while. I would think if I was going to have 50-70K in a dog to get competitve, an extended vacation would not be that far out of the question if it was the easiest way to seal the deal.

Isn't the texas circut "full" cause all teh North dogs go south in the winter? True a dog that gets his share of points against that set of wintertime trucks would know they earned it, but like I said, if 10-15 go home to each region, you gotta be in that group to get anywhere...


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Wade said:


> My opinion is that the toughest place to run is in Texas and the SE in the Winter and the Midwest in the Summer. It is MY opinion that if the top dogs from the West ran in these places on a consistant basis their point totals would be different. It is also MY opinion that if you placed, let say, the Farmer and Rorem or say the Lardy and Attar truck in CA or WA the results would be different. Meaning they would be taking points away from dogs in that area.
> 
> ?


If you took the top dogs/trucks out of any region and put it somewhere else, the region they left some dogs would pick up points, the region they go into some dogs would lose points, and the dogs entering another region would likely loose some points (putting them against other top dogs from another region.

That is kinda like saying if you took the patriots out of the AFC east, the buffalo bills might win a coupple more games becasue they didn't have to play them twice. If you put the Pats in teh south with the Colts, then likely the colts would lose another game or two but the pats would likely loose agame or two more as well. That arguement does not prove that one region is better then the other


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> So does more dogs absolutly mean weaker? Though I am not a FTer, it would seem to me that if there were 10-15 dogs of the caliber that could compete anywhere it would not matter if they were in a field of 100 mediocre aa dogs or 60 mediocre dogs, to break in to the points ya gottat beat the top end.
> 
> If a title is as valuable to people as it appears to be, and there was a circut that was actually year in and year out weaker, wouldn't a lot of people with dogs capable of doing the work, send their dog to a pro on that circuit (meaning more good dogs to the circut) or travel there themselves for a while. I would think if I was going to have 50-70K in a dog to get competitve, an extended vacation would not be that far out of the question if it was the easiest way to seal the deal.
> 
> Isn't the texas circut "full" cause all teh North dogs go south in the winter? True a dog that gets his share of points against that set of wintertime trucks would know they earned it, but like I said, if 10-15 go home to each region, you gotta be in that group to get anywhere...



Yest more dogs of high caliber means tougher. It isn't the 60 vs. 100 as much as it is the 10 FCs vs. the 25 FCs or top dogs that might not have a title yet. It matters who is having the best day or who doesn't make a mistake or something funny happen. It is like golf where everyone in the top is pretty close and can beat one another on any given day. Is the Masters tougher then a regular PGA event. Yes becasue all the top players come out. It is tougher to beat 25 top dogs then it is to beat 10 yes becasue you will have more dogs that are "on". The NFC is even worse becasue you have 50-60 top dogs.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

It's a well known fact that LARGE entries means a FUBAR first series.

Circuits that have a steady diet of this type of trial have a disproportionate amount of_* luck *_factored into their stats............

john


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

WRL said:


> Funny but the RFN calls it The Nat'l OPEN. Isn't that the reporting body for that event?
> 
> 
> 
> WRL


No they don't!

They refer to it as the National Retriever Championship or just plain National for short.

The two events are; The National and the National Amateur.

Calling it the National Open is a misuse just as calling the High Point Derby Dog the National Derby Champion or refering that one's dog is "out of" a sire.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

The "easiest" circuit is always one you aren't running.... 

Hi ya'll!! ;-)

k g


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## g_fiebelkorn (Jul 31, 2006)

K G said:


> The "easiest" circuit is always one you aren't running....
> k g


And the contrary to that would be, “the toughest circuit is the one you are running in.”


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

g_fiebelkorn said:


> And the contrary to that would be, “the toughest circuit is the one you are running in.”


More of a corollary, but point well made! 

k g


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Wade said:


> do you believe the top dogs who run the weakest circuit year round would have close to the same amount of AA points if they ran in Texas or the SE in the Winter or the Midwest in the summer?


I'll answer this way, rather than regions, I do believe that if a very good AA dog competitive wherever it ran, would consistently enter trials with under 50 dogs entered, then that dog would likely have more AA points than the same dog entering trials that avg 80+ dogs. Point is, I think the the very large stake makes for tougher competition and more extreme tests than smaller stakes. Of course there are exceptions, too.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

g_fiebelkorn said:


> And the contrary to that would be, “the toughest circuit is the one you are running in.”


Or you could do this, KG (it's nice to shake hands with RTF personalities, as KG said "all we need is a picture of this for the troops ;-)" ) is judging here this weekend, put on a nice last series in the Open. - Open had 36 dogs & I'm sure the clubs would like more entries. The weather can vary from nice to really nasty & moist. The big deal is the water, it hasn't been over 50 except for 1 day all spring. That means the swimming water is cold. You can find out if your dog really likes water . A lot of really hot dogs down south in the Winter & anywhere in the summer look pretty common on "Dead Bird, Back" after they have had a taste of the water, but come anyway .


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