# 2011 National Updates



## FOM

Dog #41 starts (Chance)

Rotation 41-63-85-18

Double with blind, roosters. At resiviour, test dog at 6:30, first dog at 7:00am.

Good luck to all contestants!

(Lets keep all updates and such on this thread...)


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## Dogtrainer4God

Nothing like being the first dog! Go Larry and Chance!


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## helencalif

Test dog at 6:30? It's DARK at 6:30. Or is that when they caravan out to the grounds for the opening ceremony?

I hope Mr. Graves went to bed early. Ruby is a test dog; I know she went to bed early. She was probably curled up on the couch in the trailer by 7 p.m. 

Lots of folks are SLEEPLESS IN OAKDALE tonight. 

Helen


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## Dave Burton

helencalif said:


> Test dog at 6:30? It's DARK at 6:30. Or is that when they caravan out to the grounds for the opening ceremony?
> 
> I hope Mr. Graves went to bed early. Ruby is a test dog; I know she went to bed early. She was probably curled up on the couch in the trailer by 7 p.m.
> 
> Lots of folks are SLEEPLESS IN OAKDALE tonight.
> 
> Helen


Maybe it's a true blind...in the dark lol


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## birdthrower51

They never said in the General Meeting report where they are holding next years National and who the judges are. Anyone know?


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## Ted Shih

Montgomery, Texas

Julie Cole
Tommy Parrish
Dave Seivert (Congratulations or condolences, Glenda)


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## birdthrower51

Thanks, Ted. They never would say who the co-judges were, that were nominated. Guess I'll mind the dogs those two weeks.


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## BonMallari

Congrats Mr Seivert,on being selected as a National Judge


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## FOM

If no one hasn't noticed, the test setup and drawing are up on The Report, plus new this year a little bit of video of the test being run by one of the test dogs! Nice touch RNs!


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## Howard N

Who was the other Mark who sang the national anthem? I'm sure one of them was Smith.

They did much better than whoever forgot the words at last year's super bowl.


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## FOM

Dog 76 handled...


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## FOM

Howard N said:


> Who was the other Mark who sang the national anthem? I'm sure one of them was Smith.
> 
> They did much better than whoever forgot the words at last year's super bowl.


Mark Edwards


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## Howard N

> Originally Posted by Howard N
> Who was the other Mark who sang the national anthem? I'm sure one of them was Smith.
> 
> They did much better than whoever forgot the words at last year's super bowl.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Edwards
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

My favorite Super Bowl national anthem was the one Whitney Houston did in 1991, but I liked the two Marks too.


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## DoubleHaul

looks like Alan forgot to tip the gunners.


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## FOM

6 is a scratch.


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## Dogtrainer4God

FOM said:


> 6 is a scratch.


Whats up with that? He was one of my picks


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## FOM

Sounds like they will start a water blind today....at least that is the rumor. 

Well I've been told it's water marks...


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## FOM

62, 76 were dropped...87 dogs remain


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## Wayne Beck

crap.. thats one..


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## BMay

ditto  on that!


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## FOM

64 handled


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## FOM

65 handled


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## FOM

66 handled....


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## FOM

67 handled too...


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## FOM

4 out of 5 have handled so far......wow!


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## Thomas Smith

Thanks for the updates! They are really appreciated!


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## BonMallari

with sundown approaching, I wonder if the judges might reconsider and scrub the test ?


so much for that idea, Guide just smacked the test


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## FOM

Juice just handled (69)


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## allydeer

did anyone here if hook was scratch and why hope he isn't hurt


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## Jim Stevenson

can anyone describe this series? 3rd?


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## FOM

Picture and description on the report.



The Report said:


> The Third Series is a land/water triple. The pheasant flyer station was replaced with a duck flyer station in the same location. The mat was moved laterally about 65 yards to the west. The new test faces south east. The first bird is a dead Drake duck thrown angle back to the left from a gentle, sloping bank up onto a level plane about three feet higher than the bank area. This bird is approximately 260 yards and is on the far side of a cove and directly off the back of the flyer station which is located on the nearside of the cove.The second bird is a dead Rooster pheasant at about 230 yards and sits to the left of the first set of guns. The dog must cross a small finger of the lake. The pheasant is thrown to the left across a small inlet and up against a row of heavy cover. The third bird is the Drake flyer and is a about sixty yard straight in front of of the line.


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## dogcommand

68 aced the test


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## FOM

73 handled


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## Jim Stevenson

Thanks FOM. 

It doesn't look like this series could get any more difficult, but how will it go for the dogs running early facing directly into the sun?


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## FOM

Last dog for the evening, is running, dog 77 will pick up the action tomorrow.


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## Breck

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Report 
The Third Series is a land/water triple. The pheasant flyer station was replaced with a duck flyer station in the same location.

What??? 
Wonder if the AOF is the same too?
Has anyone ever seen judges do this sort of thing at a trial?


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## Howard N

Looks like the judges took off their velvet gloves.

Breck, I just figured that they originally had a pheasant for the flyer. I thought they either changed it before the test dog or maybe after the test dog. All running dogs would have to have the same species of bird.

I know our club couldn't do this.


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## Ted Shih

There is NO cover in that part of the grounds. The flyer sticks out like a sore thumb. 

The action on the test was on the left bird. A number of dogs went in on a laser for that bird, then blew up. I would love to see the terrain surrounding that bird


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## Mallard1

Dumb question, but what does the term "handled" mean in terms of the dog's performance, continuence?


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## helencalif

Howard N;879052
Breck said:


> Howard, I just asked Don. The flyer was a duck for the test dogs and for the rest of the series today. Will be the same tomorrow.
> 
> Helen


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## FOM

Looks like Ms. Vickie is burning the mid-night hours as there are pictures being added to the blog!


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## golfandhunter

FOM said:


> If no one hasn't noticed, the test setup and drawing are up on The Report, plus new this year a little bit of video of the test being run by one of the test dogs! Nice touch RNs!


Pardon my ignorance, what and where is the report?


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## CMRR&GC

golfandhunter said:


> Pardon my ignorance, what and where is the report?


http://www.theretrievernews.com/home


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## Breck

OK, "normally" you would shoot several flyers before the test dog ran to fairly scent the area for early dogs. My first thought was that dogs going for a duck flyer laying in fresh shot pheasant scent could be a problem.


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## golfandhunter

CMRR&GC said:


> http://www.theretrievernews.com/home


Thanks much


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## Ted Shih

Breck said:


> OK, "normally" you would shoot several flyers before the test dog ran to fairly scent the area for early dogs. My first thought was that dogs going for a duck flyer laying in fresh shot pheasant scent could be a problem.


They shot about 4 ducks with the new rotation of gunners, when they began the third series


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## Frank Jones

From those of us standing by for up to the minute news, heartfelt thanks goes to Vicki Lamb, Tina Ebner and Gwen Jones for their great photos, blogs and reports! It's the next best thing to being there!

rita


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## Jim Harvey

Rita, you are dead on about the coverage.

I think it is simply out of this WORLD! I honestly don't know how in the world you three gals are able to do it so quickly. It is truly AMAZING! Thank you all for your time and effort. 

You too Lanie!!!! Your work is just as GREAT. 

All four of you ladies should be applauded.

I get tired of hearing people gripe about the Retriever News. (Yea, mine comes late every once in a while too)....So what,......I bet they aren't complaining about this coverage!



Rita, I thought you were going out???


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## FOM

Okay this morning doesn't look like the test is any easier:

Double handle for 77, 82
Pick Up: 80, 81
Handle for: 79, 83

Sorry for the delay, but had to do some work away from my computer this morning...


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## DoubleHaul

Question: why do they use a 4 series rotation for a 10 series trial? Do they re-evaluate and do another rotation or just keep going back to those?


Way to go Ozzie!


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## Larry Thompson1

Just plain great coverage of this event. I'm on pins and needles and don't even have a dog in the game, other my pups daddy and some friends out there.


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## FOM

DoubleHaul said:


> Question: why do they use a 4 series rotation for a 10 series trial? Do they re-evaluate and do another rotation or just keep going back to those?
> 
> 
> Way to go Ozzie!


They do that cause by the time you get to the 5th series there are enough dogs out that it is better to reevaluate the rotation...


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## FOM

86 Pick Up (Brutus)


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## FOM

87 Pick Up


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## Breck

Sounds like the 3rd is killing 'em. Has anyone tried selecting out the L/H mark first?


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## DoubleHaul

FOM said:


> They do that cause by the time you get to the 5th series there are enough dogs out that it is better to reevaluate the rotation...


Makes sense and is what I figured but since I have never been to one (and probably never will, alas) thought I would ask you experts.


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## FOM

Pow picked up (#12) - I know he was a popular pick on the pick 'em


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## BonMallari

double handle for Ted and Mootsie # 13


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## FOM

Just quick and dirty math: approximately 42 dogs have run the 3rd...15 handles, 3 double handles and 5 pickups for a total of 23 dogs with boo-boos


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## scott spalding

At this rate 40% of the field likely out of contention after the third wow.


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## helencalif

Just got a phone call from Don who has been working and watching the continuation of the 3rd series since it started early this morning. He reports that today is a massacre. He estimates that only 1 out of 3 dogs is doing the test without a handle or a pick-up. The tough bird is the dead pheasant. 

Some are really ugly handles. Some are second handles so those dogs won't be back. We will know how many got picked up or dropped after the results are posted on Retriever News. Probably tonight as they should end the 3rd series and then start the 4th series later this afternoon. They are utilizing every moment of daylight. Don is getting up at 4:15 to be on the grounds by 6:00. The other chairmen, bird throwers, and gunners are there by at least 6:00, too. Lots of handlers there at that time, too, to watch the test dog who has to be on the mat at 6:30. Lighting is darn dim at 6:30. Sunrise is around 6:45. First competitive dog usually runs between 7:00 - 7:15. Poor lighting is not the killer, the dead pheasant is. 

Helen


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## bjoiner

At this point, my pick-em's are going to be out of contention after the third.


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## Codatango

Dead pheasants - a golden retriever's FAVORITE! Too bad there aren't any running!

Debbie Tandoc


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## FOM

#24 is a pick up


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## Brad Turner

This test is definitely giving the judges some answers. OUCH!


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## BonMallari

my guess is that we will see a BIG cut after the 4th series(which should be a water blind)..by then the dogs will have seen land marks,land blind,water marks and a water blind....just like a typical trial...which of course this is not


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## Brad Turner

My guess is they will drop dogs that handled in both marking tests (1st and 3rd Series) and the double handles from the 3rd. Dogs with one handle will, probably, be carried, but blue will be out of the question.


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## BonMallari

Brad Turner said:


> My guess is they will drop dogs that handled in both marking tests (1st and 3rd Series) and the double handles from the 3rd. *Dogs with one handle will, probably, be carried, but blue will be out of the question*.


in the National, .."not all handles are created equal,nor fatal..."

lots of trial left, this is just like the first round of the playoffs..lots of players left..if you are in it you can win it...


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## Jacob Hawkes

Just curious when is the last time a test has done this to the field so early in The National or National Am.


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## EdA

Brad Turner said:


> My guess is they will drop dogs that handled in both marking tests (1st and 3rd Series) and the double handles from the 3rd. Dogs with one handle will, probably, be carried, but blue will be out of the question.


It is not at all uncommon for the winner of the National or National Amateur to have a handle on a mark, 10 series, lots can happen, surviving an early handle is much better than a late handle.



Jacob Hawkes said:


> Just curious when is the last time a test has done this to the field so early in The National or National Am.


It is rare but not unprecedented, in the early 80s at Busch the third series was intended to be the 8th or 9th but due to the wind they ran it out of order, it was a big time water triple off of a very tall levee and it was a bloodbath. National Amateur in Bend Oregon in the 80s a water quad with two fliers.

I seriously doubt that anyone thought this test would produce the results it has produced, usually 3 is an exercise in doing marks with some, albeit little water involved.


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## BrettG

EdA said:


> It is not at all uncommon for the winner of the National or National Amateur to have a handle on a mark, 10 series, lots can happen, surviving an early handle is much better than a late handle.


I know this is true, but is it good reasoning with the test continually to increase in difficulty as the week progresses? Just asking?


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## helencalif

BonMallari said:


> in the National, .."not all handles are created equal,nor fatal..."D


You are so right. Don said there were quick handles; then there were some gawd-awul ugly marathon handles. A lot of those dogs got picked up, but not all of them were. 

#66 Saber had a quick handle yesterday on the tough pheasant. We are hoping he is back along with the others who had quick handles. As Bon said, not all handles are fatal, especially if early in the week. Depending on how it shakes out as the week goes along, a quick handle could still be a finalist -- or even a winner. 

Helen


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## EdA

BrettG said:


> I know this is true, but is it good reasoning with the test continually to increase in difficulty as the week progresses? Just asking?


Typically the intent is for the tests to become more difficult but sometimes tests prove to be more difficult than anticipated and the conditions at the time can make a test more or less difficult. Such was the case in St. Louis in 1986 when it was 8 degrees in the morning of a water blind. The grounds committee broke ice with a boat and the blind,though short, was brutal.


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## Mallard1

Helen, what does that mean, "handle"?


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## BonMallari

BrettG said:


> I know this is true, but is it good reasoning with the test continually to increase in difficulty as the week progresses? Just asking?


I think I can answer that, I have been told by two different National Judges that the event should read like a good novel with a beginning that grabs your attention, a meaty middle that keeps you interested, and a conclusion that ties it all together,and leaves no hanging threads, but makes you want to come back for more..

So to answer your question YES...

That's as long as the weather conditions don't change drastically and the wind doesn't come from a different direction


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## FOM

Mallard1 said:


> Helen, what does that mean, "handle"?


It means the dog needed help to get to a mark....i.e. it's handler blew the whistle and gave it a cast


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## BonMallari

EdA said:


> Typically the intent is for the tests to become more difficult but sometimes tests prove to be more difficult than anticipated and the conditions at the time can make a test more or less difficult. Such was the case in St. Louis in 1986 when it was 8 degrees in the morning of a water blind. The grounds committee broke ice with a boat and the blind,though short, was brutal.


good old Weldon Springs Mo. circa 1974, vividly remember John Luther calling and telling us that they were breaking ice in the morning at the water's edge,later confirmed by Lanse and other who survived to tell the tale with pictures to show everyone in the Michelin man jackets..the National went 11 series but finished in 4 days (60 starters)


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## BrettG

BonMallari said:


> I think I can answer that, I have been told by two different National Judges that the event should read like a good novel with a beginning that grabs your attention, a meaty middle that keeps you interested, and a conclusion that ties it all together,and leaves no hanging threads, but makes you want to come back for more..


I love that analogy.


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## Breck

Anyone know what dog is shown running the 3rd on the NRC Report Video? It looks like a running dog not a test dog. Can't see handlers # but I think it's Alan Pleasant?
I don't know what route the dogs are taking to the L/H bird and getting into trouble but in the video this dog angles the tall cover nicely twice and appears to make to the AOF (not visable in video) without too much trouble. Can't tell from the camera angle if it was a "good" line to the fall. Dog takes a little time hunting before coming up with the bird and handler toot tooting him in.
Looks like a nice mark, in the video anyway, so what are the dogs doing or not doing that's killing them?


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## Dan Storts

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Just curious when is the last time a test has done this to the field so early in The National or National Am.


Didn't the land blind, in the 3rd series last year, result in over 20 pickups last year.


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## Breck

Looks like things are going better for dogs in the 30's. And now #40 Lanse Brown!


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## Brad Turner

BonMallari said:


> in the National, .."not all handles are created equal,nor fatal..."
> 
> lots of trial left, this is just like the first round of the playoffs..lots of players left..if you are in it you can win it...


Very true Bon. I guess it is all relative. Some may have a quick clean handle and others may have hunted the back 40. We shall see... I have been on the edge of my computer chair the past two days and there is still the rest of the week!


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## Howard N

What order are most of the handlers attempting to pick up the birds? 

My first thoughts was outside, outside, middle. But, the pix of the middle bird show a fairly prominent holding blind, that plus the point of reeds on the left bird could get the dog to the middle bird when sent for the left bird. 

Anyone know how they're sending and how it's playing out?


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## Jacob Hawkes

EdA said:


> It is rare but not unprecedented, in the early 80s at Busch the third series was intended to be the 8th or 9th but due to the wind they ran it out of order, it was a big time water triple off of a very tall levee and it was a bloodbath. National Amateur in Bend Oregon in the 80s a water quad with two fliers.
> 
> I seriously doubt that anyone thought this test would produce the results it has produced, usually 3 is an exercise in doing marks with some, albeit little water involved.


Thanks, Dr. Ed. It's nice having having you around to answer questions for us less informed folk.


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## BonMallari

Howard N said:


> What order are most of the handlers attempting to pick up the birds?
> 
> My first thoughts was outside, outside, middle. But, the pix of the middle bird show a fairly prominent holding blind, that plus the point of reeds on the left bird could get the dog to the middle bird when sent for the left bird.
> *
> Anyone know how they're sending and how it's playing out*?


according to ABIII those that ran this morning faced tougher conditions due to some ground fog and varied light conditions...from his vantage point the dogs either stepped on the marks or handlers were forced to do a quick handle and stay in the game ...the buzz is that a water blind looms nearby and may or may not be shown depending on the sun going down officially at 5:05 PST


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## Howard N

BonMallari said:


> according to ABIII those that ran this morning faced tougher conditions due to some ground fog and varied light conditions...from his vantage point the dogs either stepped on the marks or handlers were forced to do a quick handle and stay in the game ...the buzz is that a water blind looms nearby and may or may not be shown depending on the sun going down officially at 5:05 PST


What order did LB (I won't believe there were two others before him) pick up the 3rd Bon?


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## BonMallari

Howard N said:


> What order did LB (I won't believe there were two others before him) pick up the 3rd Bon?


to be perfectly honest I forgot to ask,he was just relieved to have survive the fray...when ABIII calls you just set the phone down and listen until he says goodbye ...but if I remember correctly when we chatted last night, he was planning on flyer right,duck left, rooster middle, but if Eva wanted middle he was not going to fight with her and was going to let her have it


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## jollydog

The 3rd series last year did take a big cut out of the field. It was a water-blind in the rain
and you were not able to see your dog at a crucial time.


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## Fred Warf

Originally Posted by *Howard N*  
What order are most of the handlers attempting to pick up the birds?

Howard - Most are picking up flyer - left - center - 
Left gun is up (very hard to get pass) center is just off the back of the flyer station - thrown almost strait back - left gun is not visible to the dog if they drive out of the lake bed up onto the shore line - depending on the wind the dogs that drive out of the lake bed can wind the center bird from the left bird, if the dogs back side the left gun and wind the center all is OK but if they stay left of the left gun and then wind center bird you pretty much have to handle - great test - some dogs go right on line to the left bird but don't come up with it, when the expand there hunt they end up winding the center bird and work over to it, you have to handle


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## dr_dog_guy

You just about have to pick up the flyer first - its very close (relatively speaking). I didn't watch every dog but the ones I saw that picked up the middle bird second did so more by accident than by design; because the wind blew the duck sent over that way during the drive or the hunt for the left bird. I didn't see anyone deliberately pick the middle bird as the second.


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## Judy Myers

I was a game steward picking up birds for much of the morning and early afternoon. There was a period in the middle when the wind was either stronger or coming from a slightly different direction and several dogs punched through the row of cover running across the test right in front of the water and then hung up there. Either they were getting hung up in drag back or winding the flyer crates to the right and behind them or both. But that was another hazard that tripped up a few of the dogs for about an hour and caused the handlers to have to handle their dogs from just past the row of cover all the way to the bird.


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## zipmarc

Fred Warf said:


> Originally Posted by *Howard N*
> What order are most of the handlers attempting to pick up the birds?
> 
> Howard - Most are picking up flyer - left - center -
> Left gun is up (very hard to get pass) center is just off the back of the flyer station - thrown almost strait back - left gun is not visible to the dog if they drive out of the lake bed up onto the shore line - depending on the wind the dogs that drive out of the lake bed can wind the center bird from the left bird, if the dogs back side the left gun and wind the center all is OK but if they stay left of the left gun and then wind center bird you pretty much have to handle - great test - some dogs go right on line to the left bird but don't come up with it, when the expand there hunt they end up winding the center bird and work over to it, you have to handle



Good test.


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## Dan Storts

From the pictures it seems like it was just good bird placement, and not trickery, which gave the results. The number of handles from beginning to end, and not the first 10 or 15 dogs getting hammered, shows in the results. I could be wrong but it looks like the judges did a very good job in setting up this test.


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## jeff evans

WOW WE HAVE PLAY BY PLAY COVERAGE!!! Round of applause, and even videos!! Does any one know what the dominant wind direction was relative to the test drawing? How consistent was the wind direction?


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## BonMallari

champ said:


> WOW WE HAVE PLAY BY PLAY COVERAGE!!! Round of applause, and even videos!! Does any one know what the dominant wind direction was relative to the test drawing? How consistent was the wind direction?


according to the blog the test faces SSE and the wind was a steady breeze from the NW, which would put the wind direction at the handlers back


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## Judy Myers

It was from the right angling away to the left so that if a dog got deep on the left hand mark it could wind the middle mark. Toward the end, it seemed to me that it was coming more directly straight across from right to left and even a little bit in your face from that direction. It did seem to get stronger as the day progressed. The early dogs were impacted by the haze and fog. Later, the sun and wind made glints on the water that may have impacted visibility. For much of the day, the gunners were backlit making them hard to see. By afternoon, the glints were gone and the gunners were well lit.


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## mlopez

champ said:


> WOW WE HAVE PLAY BY PLAY COVERAGE!!! Round of applause, and even videos!! Does any one know what the dominant wind direction was relative to the test drawing? How consistent was the wind direction?


I am super excited about the videos! It's great to be able to look at the pictures and drawings and then get to see the dogs run. Love it! Thanks to the folks at Retriever News!


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## JDogger

I'm working on the laptop and it dosn't have a lot of stuff installed. What program do I need to install to view the videos? Quick time --- Adobe Flash ---what??

Thanks 
Melis


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## FOM

Callback: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 25, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 78, 79, 83, 84, 85, 88

Dogs dropped: 8, 11, 12, 13, 24, 26, 27, 52, 64, 66, 69, 73, 77, 80, 81, 82, 86, 87, 89, 90


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## BonMallari

Guess all the handles were not equal nor quick...interesting the top 2 Open dogs in points both dropped


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## mlopez

JDogger said:


> I'm working on the laptop and it dosn't have a lot of stuff installed. What program do I need to install to view the videos? Quick time --- Adobe Flash ---what??
> 
> Thanks
> Melis


Not sure exactly. Mine show up as youtube videos. You can probably search youtube for retrievernews and they should be posted up there.


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## JDogger

I figured it out --- finally. It's adobe but my anti virus wasn't letting it load. Got it squared away now.

AND DANG Chuck---- I was pulling for our New Mexico dog---Carson. Just saw he was dropped. 
Melis


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## dr_dog_guy

Thanks, Hugh

He backsided that left hand gun, winded the duck and took the middle bird first. He then went for the left hand bird, thought he'd already picked it up, and didn't want to handle into that slot. Lots of dogs had trouble handling into that at times, and at other times they'd handle well. Subtle changes in wind and light really played havoc with that left hand bird. Superficially it didn't look that hard, but it was a real bear. Some really excellent dogs had trouble on this test. 

Maybe next year. Want to come up and hunt with an FC this December?


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## Brad Turner

BonMallari said:


> Guess all the handles were not equal nor quick...interesting the top 2 Open dogs in points both dropped


I was going to say the same thing. 3 of my pics with handles dropped and 3 with handles were carried.


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## labhauler

Just to get the details right:
Flyer duck, left bird cold dead pheasant, middle dead duck. Dogs were driving to the LH bird past the gun, backside or right side, up thro' the cover and onto the flat terrain. Some dogs got lucky with wind and "landing" position and came up with the bird. Some dogs drove thro', hunted , winded the middle duck, back to hunt the dead pheasant, but the dead duck scent was way more interesting. So many started to switch, got in their handler's net, back to the LHbird. So they knew the dead duck was there. that middle bird was not anywhere near as much trouble as the lh pheasant. 
Dogs were sent for the short, last bird down flyer. The flyer station was straight out in front of the line. The lines were tight. Dogs were way interested in the flyer . 
The terrain to the LH bird was a major factor.
Cover pushed the dogs off line if they weren't brave enough. Some dogs went left of the cover and dropped down into the gully andthen up on land after seeing the guns.
About 1pm. the glare off the water was a MAJOR factor. Question was could the dogs see the throws or the guns?
Some dogs didnt want to go near the water for the middle bird. Then feathers from the flyer floated into the water and affected the dogs.


Many,many different reasons for dog work being so different.Wind coming up or dying down, desire for the duck scent,cheating water, bravery, watching the flyer for 3 birds, crazed by the duck after days and yesterday full of pheasants.

I am sure the judges didnt expect so much mayhem . There was no reason to scrap the test. One test dog smacked the test, one showed one of the many problems to come. Just because you read this forum and the NRC 2011 Blog doesnt mean you get all the information. So my suggestion is, don't second guess 3 very experienced judges


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## kjrice

Judy Myers said:


> I was a game steward picking up birds for much of the morning and early afternoon. There was a period in the middle when the wind was either stronger or coming from a slightly different direction and several dogs punched through the row of cover running across the test right in front of the water and then hung up there. Either they were getting hung up in drag back or winding the flyer crates to the right and behind them or both. But that was another hazard that tripped up a few of the dogs for about an hour and caused the handlers to have to handle their dogs from just past the row of cover all the way to the bird.


Judy,
It was nice meeting you and stewarding too. Hope you have a good time at the NRC.

Kevin


----------



## Ted Shih

Birds were tight. 
All of the handlers that I saw tried for the birds in this order: 
Flyer
Left visible gun
Middle retired gun

While I was there, wind was blowing right to left

If you pushed your dog left, it would run on the left side of the cover in front of the bird, never get in the ditch run up into idiot flats and never recover. Handle.

If you did not close off the right corridor, the dog would push off the cover point, get behind the guns hunt a little bit to the right. Handle.

If you got the perfect line into the cover, and the dog did not scent the bird, the dog would pop out of the ditch, hunt in the flats behind the guns and the birds, make bigger and bigger circles around the guns. Handle.

If the dog got 10-15 yards to the right of the visible guns, it got a whiff of blind, or birds, and started its way to middle bird. Handle.

Handles on left bird could be ugly because you could not see the dog pick up the bird. Dogs were invisible when they were in the draw. They could pop up on the left side of the draw and now you need a whole new set of whistles.

I would like to have seen the fall, because a lot of good dogs went into the cover where I would have thought they would have found a bird, but did not. 

Visibility was excellent last night, but not much scent to hold dogs in. I watched Aero and Juice go into the area of the fall, root around, go back in, root around, then make wider and wider loops until they winded the middle bird. Handle.

Visibility seemed to be good in a stretch before I ran 4 dogs in a row hit it. Then sun came out and guns and birds were hard to see.

Pow picked up in front of me.

I stepped up too hard on left bird (should have stayed still), pushed Mootsie past left gun, and she never saw bird (I lost bird as soon as it left thrower's hand). I compounded error by sending too soft and she hunted near shore.
Handle to middle bird.

Sent louder for left bird. She hung up on cover in front of draw. Handle. Out of field trial. 

So, here I am in Winnemuca, Nevada pondering my mistakes and what might have been

Ted


----------



## Howard N

> pondering my mistakes and what might have been


Sorry Ted. Every field trialer has been where you are.

Good luck next year.


----------



## tshuntin

Sorry Ted. Thanks for posting. Heck, I was almost going to be in the fine city of Winnemucca tonight too, but pushed some meetings back. I would have loved to have bought you dinner and heard more about the tests. Safe travels.


----------



## BonMallari

Ted Shih said:


> So, here I am in Winnemuca, Nevada pondering my mistakes and what might have been
> 
> Ted


well from my vantage point in the cheap seats, we are here while you actually qualified for and ran a National...no need to wonder what might have been..98% of us will never get to experience the thrill of being a National competitor..you gave it your best effort..


----------



## zipmarc

It was a tough test but with 22 dogs out and 68 going into the 4th doesn't seem too bad compared to other years.


----------



## Breck

Ted thanks for the detailed info. Good to hear the skinny from the perspective of someone who actually stood on line. Sorry you're not still playing. 
Sounds like several factors played into dogs success or failure. If this series were at a weekend trial the sand baggers would have been working the conditions big time.


----------



## Mike W.

Sorry Ted, but thanks for posting.


----------



## FOM

I'm gonna apologize right now, I have a training class all day today and through Thursday so my updates to the summary list will be few and in between...sorry. I'll try my best, but no promises, my cell coverage sucks in the room we will be in.

Edit - we have internet access during the class, but it I will still be distracted.


----------



## Laura McCaw

I can try and help out some since I have nothing better to do today.  Dog #85 is starting the 4th series.


----------



## Laura McCaw

Ok so I checked again and it says in the report, #67 is starting dog, but on the blog it says #85.


----------



## zipmarc

I'll go with the blog version.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

zipmarc said:


> It was a tough test but with 22 dogs out and 68 going into the 4th doesn't seem too bad compared to other years.


Is there available information to develop a comparison--just for fun? Compare what test was in each series (i.e., marks or blinds), # dogs that started each series, # handles/% of field, # pickups/% of field--in each series.

For example, as I recall in 2005 Montgomery (correct yr is 2004 Montgomery) the 3rd series was a waterblind with a long land entry, running water, and a point that was rescented after every 3 or 5 dogs. 25 dogs went out--12 picked up and 13 dropped or vice versa. I do not recall how many dogs started the 3rd series.

Ted, Thank you for posting. I appreciate your detailed description of the setup. Sorry you didn't survive. Ann


----------



## FOM

Ann,

You can search RTF for all my old Summary threads...I don't recall how long I have been doing them, but they should give you an idea.

Lainee


----------



## BonMallari

the work on today's land/water blind seems to be going rather quickly


----------



## EdA

HiRollerlabs said:


> For example, as I recall in 2005 Montgomery


2005 was Cheraw, 2004 was Montgomery


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

It will be interesting who the callbacks are after this series.


----------



## BonMallari

Jacob Hawkes said:


> It will be interesting who the callbacks are after this series.


based on the blog reports, everyone seems to be doing it...might end up being a pencil scoring or whistle counting exercise...no guesses until the field does the test


----------



## Brad Turner

Does anyone know where the blind is planted?


----------



## ErinsEdge

BonMallari said:


> based on the blog reports, everyone seems to be doing it...might end up being a pencil scoring or whistle counting exercise...no guesses until the field does the test


So you think there are no cast refusals?


----------



## BonMallari

ErinsEdge said:


> So you think there are no cast refusals?


not at all, plenty of cast refusals (based strictly on the blog), I dont think anyone has picked up yet...also hard to tell if anyone has lined the blind either...Ms. Lamb and Ms Ebner have their hands full reporting in real time and are doing great just keeping up with the action, describing a blind in real time would take longer than to run the blind itself

Kudos to the reporting crew


----------



## Darin Westphal

perhaps my comprehension skills are lacking today, but from the pixs it's difficult to tell. Is the point in line with the blind...or is the line just off the point (so water the entire way)?


----------



## jollydog

There are certainly some who have gotten out early, can tell by picture's posted, and some blogs have stated dog did not return to water.

One picture on the report shows you a guy standing 
where the blind is planted for those who want to see it.
Comparing it to one's posted show dog way off line.


----------



## BonMallari

from the report :


> The Test has moved back to the east side of the mound which has been home to the first three series. The mat faces south/southwest. The line takes the dog approximately 100 yards across clear ground before they bust through a line of cover. This is the first hazard. This brush has scent and feathers from yesterday's flyer and drag back. Once through the brush, the dog crosses the point that they were on yesterday going to and from the third series left hand mark. The cast from there puts the dog parallel to the shore for at least 100 yards. They must then exit the water, go up a large point and that is where there bird is located. Total yardage 350 yards.


----------



## Darin Westphal

Thanks Bon! It was my comprehension skills...as I read that earlier!


----------



## FOM

BonMallari said:


> based on the blog reports, everyone seems to be doing it...might end up being a pencil scoring or whistle counting exercise...no guesses until the field does the test


I highly doubt that, from the perspective I'm reading, staying dry, seeking dirt, issues on the point, etc seem to tell a different story...

Lainee


----------



## ErinsEdge

FOM said:


> I highly doubt that, from the perspective I'm reading, staying dry, seeking dirt, issues on the point, etc seem to tell a different story...
> 
> Lainee


I agree completely. I'm sure they are getting answers and they won't have to just "count whistles".


----------



## jollydog

This is a picture of the water blind and one of a dog who got out early.
You can see the blind planter's reflection in the water and can see the last tree as 
a reference point as to where the blind is. If I am reading the blog's correctly some are
getting out early and not all get back in.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

But would a subpar blind be dropped over a handle on a mark? *IMO* absolutely & unequivocally no. Based on what the judges wrote in RN, I'd tend to think they agree with that thought process.


----------



## FOM

Jacob Hawkes said:


> But would a subpar blind be dropped over a handle on a mark? *IMO* absolutely & unequivocally no. Based on what the judges wrote in RN, I'd tend to think they agree with that thought process.



subpar and a failure are two different things....it is a WATER blind...


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

jollydog said:


> This is a picture of the water blind and one of a dog who got out early.
> You can see the blind planter's reflection in the water and can see the last tree as
> a reference point as to where the blind is. If I am reading the blog's correctly some are
> getting out early and not all get back in.


Good point.


----------



## Laura McCaw

Pick-Up on #41 (FC AFC CFC CAFC Jazztime Last Chance V Pekisko)


----------



## OlgaA

Pick-Up on #41 (FC AFC CFC CAFC Jazztime Last Chance V Pekisko)


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

FOM said:


> subpar and a failure are two different things....it is a WATER blind...


Wow. Just, wow.


----------



## FOM

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Wow. Just, wow.


 Please expound...is it not a water blind? A dog with multiple refusals to get back in the water and or one that seeks dirt is in jeapordy of failing...it is all relative, but there is a difference with a dog who may seek land, a handler who stops the dog and gets the cast to stay in the water and one that refuses and runs the bank, especially after refusing multiple casts in a row.


----------



## Brad Turner

jollydog said:


> This is a picture of the water blind and one of a dog who got out early.
> You can see the blind planter's reflection in the water and can see the last tree as
> a reference point as to where the blind is. If I am reading the blog's correctly some are
> getting out early and not all get back in.


Thanks, for some reason I couldn't find the report earlier


----------



## BonMallari

NFC Willie and D. Rorem are going along nicely,probably should have included them on my pick em sheet...


----------



## HiRollerlabs

EdA said:


> 2005 was Cheraw, 2004 was Montgomery


Just logged in to correct the year. Thanks Dr. Ed. It was the '04 in Montgomery with 3rd series waterblind, and about 25 dogs dropped.


----------



## Guest

BonMallari said:


> NFC Willie and D. Rorem are going along nicely,probably should have included them on my pick em sheet...


Didn't know you were there? I thought your work schedule prohibited you from going, but glad to hear you made it out to see it first hand! Thanks for the reports. 

Wait, you _*are*_ there, right?


----------



## zipmarc

One of my favorite dogs (#56) just did a nice job on this water blind: Casey is handled by Randy Koch trained by Jerry Patopea. This water blind is nothing to sneeze at - it's got some challenges to it.


----------



## BonMallari

Melanie Foster said:


> Didn't know you were there? I thought your work schedule prohibited you from going, but glad to hear you made it out to see it first hand! Thanks for the reports.
> 
> Wait, you _*are*_ there, right?


Nope here in in Vegas, getting my info from ABIII, you didnt think I would show up without looking you up..I'm not that shallow...sorry I couldnt make it...


----------



## BonMallari

is it time for a quad in the fifth series


----------



## FOM

Callback: 2, 4, 5, 7, 14, 15, 18, 20, 22, 23, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 36, 37, 38, 40, 42, 44, 46, 47, 48, 49, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 58, 60, 61, 65, 67, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 78, 84, 85, 88 (46 total of which 7 have handles in the 3rd)

dogs dropped:1, 3, 9, 10, 16, 17, 19, 21, 25, 34, 39, 41, 43, 45, 50, 57, 59, 63, 68, 79, 83 (21 total)


----------



## Brad Turner

BonMallari said:


> is it time for a quad in the fifth series


Looks like it is a land triple.


----------



## BonMallari

only 46 dogs remain and its only Tuesday,six series left...could they finish before Saturday..has that happened in the last 10 yrs ? 20 yrs ?


----------



## scott spalding

Half the field gone and one water mark


----------



## DoubleHaul

Shoot. Lost my first one in the pick 'em. Still it is nice to see that even these great dogs will sometimes do the exact same thing my useless critter does on water blinds.


----------



## pam ingham

"only 46 dogs remain and its only Tuesday,six series left.."


less dogs than a weekend trial ( except maybe Alaska) - at the current attrition rate they could be finished by Thursday ... Vicky is doing her regular stellar job - thanks Vick and Lainee for the up to date info!


----------



## HarryWilliams

As far as the Pick 'em is concerned.....Please pass the bandaids. HPW


----------



## Laura McCaw

Handle on # 23. (FC Seaside's Bullwinkle)


----------



## Laura McCaw

Handle on dog #28. (FC AFC Hardscrabble Roxie McBunn)


----------



## Laura McCaw

#29 handled on left flyer. (NFC AFC Hunter Runs BooBoo)


----------



## Bridget Bodine

wow I wonder how many this one is gonna take out . 3 out of 6 with handles so far.....


----------



## Laura McCaw

#30 handle. (Citori's No Holds Barred)


----------



## Laura McCaw

Bridget Bodine said:


> wow I wonder how many this one is gonna take out . 3 out of 6 with handles so far.....


Oh I know... my pick'ems are already almost done for... got 4 out already. Not sure how many after this series though.


----------



## FOM

33 failed to get right hand flier, test called for the night, dog 35 will resume the test tomorrow.


----------



## BonMallari

looks like they ended with Charli Koeth and Lil # 33...she either handled or PU..there goes another pick


----------



## DaveHare

Go Ali!! Go Pirate!!!! Keep It Rolling.
Dave Hare


----------



## Rudd

zipmarc said:


> One of my favorite dogs (#56) just did a nice job on this water blind: Casey is handled by Randy Koch trained by Jerry Patopea. This water blind is nothing to sneeze at - it's got some challenges to it.


Casey is a great dog. I liked him the first time I saw him at Jerry's. He's also a brother (I believe litter mate) to Merlyn.


----------



## zipmarc

Casey is a hot one, same breeding as Merlyn, both out of  Case Hardened Colors (Beitlers, breeders), Fargo on the top side.


----------



## Mallard1

DHare,

I agree! Go Pirate!


----------



## Laura McCaw

I am also hoping Pirate does well.  Go Pirate Go.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

Here is a slimmed down summary from the *2010* National for comparison purposes. Thank you Lainee for providing the info! 

*2010* National Info:

*1st/2nd series: Double with a retired gun and a blind, cock pheasants.*
*105 Qualified, 97 Entered, 95 Started*
*6 Dogs Dropped*


*3rd series: Water blind*
*88 Dogs Remain (92.6% of starters remain)*
*25 Dogs Dropped*


*4th series: Water triple, out of order flier, 2 retired*
*63 Dogs Remain (66.3% of starters remain)*
*9 Dogs Dropped*


*5th series: Land blind*
*54 Dogs Remain (56.8% of starters remain)*
*6 Dogs Dropped*


*6th Series: Land Quad with 2 fliers*
*48 Dogs Remain (50.5% of starters remain)*
*20 Dogs Dropped*


*7th Series: Water blind*
*28 Dogs Remain (29.5% of starters remain)*
*No Dogs Dropped*


*8th series: Water triple with two retired and an honor*
*28 Dogs Remain (29.5% of starters remain)*
*13 Dogs Dropped*


*9th series: Water triple with two retired and a wipeout flier*
*15 Dogs Remain (15.8% of starters remain)*
*3 Dogs Dropped*


*10th Series*
*12 Dogs Remain (12.6% of starters remain)*
*One dog Picked Up (11.6% of starters finished)*


----------



## BonMallari

First dog of the morning handled and now picked up, hope thats not a trend


----------



## Judy Myers

kjrice said:


> Judy,
> It was nice meeting you and stewarding too. Hope you have a good time at the NRC.
> 
> Kevin


I was busy all day yesterday selling merchandise and serving as game steward so I just saw this post. Thanks, Kevin. It's fun meeting fellow RTFers in person.


----------



## FOM

BonMallari said:


> First dog of the morning handled and now picked up, hope thats not a trend


Another handle for #36 and now 37, dogs aren't fairing to well right now.


----------



## FOM

15 dogs have run.
5 Do not have a handle (either in the 3rd or 5th)
1 has a double handle.
2 have picked up.


----------



## BonMallari

Ok Lanse and Eva, # 40.....


----------



## Breck

Watching the video of this series on the Report (0:29sec) it appears that the middle guns retire as soon as the dog is sent.
?


----------



## zipmarc

Eva had a big hunt on the left flyer but she got it.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

T T T Tia.


----------



## BonMallari

zipmarc said:


> Eva had a big hunt on the left flyer but she got it.


Lanse thinks he made a slight tactical/handling error...he placed his hand down to send and then removed it and he went with a softer send to guard against her running out of the county...Rorem thinks she did well on the other two, but concurred about ABIII's slight brain freeze..considering what is happening to the rest of the field they will take it...


----------



## Brad Turner

Hope Louie is ok! Scary stuff.


----------



## Aaron Homburg

Brad Turner said:


> Hope Louie is ok! Scary stuff.


*X2 Louie is a great dog owned by great folks!!! Good thoughts for Louie, Shweikerts, and the whole Rock River crew!!!

Aaron*


----------



## Thomas Smith

How did Ruckus do on series 5? Dog #44. I can't access the blog for some reason.


----------



## Howard N

BonMallari said:


> Lanse thinks he made a slight tactical/handling error...he placed his hand down to send and then removed it and he went with a softer send to guard against her running out of the county...Rorem thinks she did well on the other two, but concurred about ABIII's slight brain freeze..considering what is happening to the rest of the field they will take it...


Bon, from the pictures, this looks like a secondary selection indented triple. Are the handlers mostly taking the short retired 2nd, or are they taking it outside outside short middle retired.

Is one method proving to be better than the other?


----------



## BonMallari

Howard N said:


> Bon, from the pictures, this looks like a secondary selection indented triple. Are the handlers mostly taking the short retired 2nd, or are they taking it outside outside short middle retired.
> 
> Is one method proving to be better than the other?


I specifically asked that this time, he went outside rt, outside left, middle...never considered any other alternative (his words not mine)


----------



## Dan Wegner

Brad Turner said:


> Hope Louie is ok! Scary stuff.





Aaron Homburg said:


> *X2 Louie is a great dog owned by great folks!!! Good thoughts for Louie, Shweikerts, and the whole Rock River crew!!!
> 
> Aaron*


For those who can't access the blog:
*Dog Went Down on the Honor *
... While waiting on the honor mat for the no-bird to be collected, dog #53, having had a hunt and handle, went wobbly and down on the mat. Handler Scott Dewey scooped him up and Bill Daley is transporting him to assistance on a four-wheeler. Hope for the best for Louie and Scott.

Updated Blog Entry:
*Update on Louie *
Current notification is that Louie has been hosed down and rehydrated and that he has multiple attendants back in the parking area; that he's gone down before, and that the prognosis is good. Continued positive thoughts are being sent his way...


----------



## Dan Wegner

thomassmith1994 said:


> How did Ruckus do on series 5? Dog #44. I can't access the blog for some reason.


Per the blog: 
*Big and wide right-hand flyer hunt... HANDLE Middle *
for dog #44, and Ruckus now has the bird...

Ruckus then hunted on the left flyer... and went deep on the middle bird and handled back to it... FC Contempt of Court and Ray Voigt


----------



## Thomas Smith

Dan Wegner said:


> Per the blog:
> *Big and wide right-hand flyer hunt... HANDLE Middle *
> for dog #44, and Ruckus now has the bird...
> 
> Ruckus then hunted on the left flyer... and went deep on the middle bird and handled back to it... FC Contempt of Court and Ray Voigt


Thanks for the info. Do you think that will get him dropped?


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> Lanse thinks he made a slight tactical/handling error...he placed his hand down to send and then removed it and he went with a softer send to guard against her running out of the county...Rorem thinks she did well on the other two, but concurred about ABIII's slight brain freeze..considering what is happening to the rest of the field they will take it...


ABIII is lucky to have any part of his brain working at all  - you can tell him I said that.

My favorites have done this test well enough! Casey #56 and Tiny #58.

I hope Louie #53 is ok - he went down on honor but he's receiving help.


----------



## Brad Turner

Windy now has two handles...


----------



## BonMallari

zipmarc said:


> ABIII is lucky to have any part of his brain working at all  - you can tell him I said that.
> 
> .


you tell him yourself Mimi, you've known him as long if not longer as I have, just don't hurt him when you do it


----------



## zipmarc

zipmarc said:


> ABIII is lucky to have any part of his brain working at all  - you can tell him I said that.





BonMallari said:


> you tell him yourself Mimi, you've known him as long if not longer as I have, just don't hurt him when you do it


I'll have to deliver the message personally tomorrow, with libation;-)


----------



## BonMallari

zipmarc said:


> I'll have to deliver the message personally tomorrow, with* multiple* libation;-)


FIFY; the line to biaatch slap or nut kick him is long and forms to the left,those with a longer history will be given preference to the front of the line


----------



## zipmarc

_<<I'll have to deliver the message personally tomorrow, with* multiple* libation:wink:>>

_


BonMallari said:


> FIFY; the line to biaatch slap or nut kick him is long and forms to the left, those with a longer history will be given preference to the front of the line


I'll try to get to the front by shouting the favorite line Lance used when he greeted new arrivals at Rex Carr's CL2 : WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?? And on Fridays when Dr. Bill Sabbag came, it was worse!


----------



## FOM

Bon why do you refer to Lanse as ABIII instead of Lanse?


----------



## frontier

FOM said:


> Bon why do you refer to Lanse as ABIII instead of Lanse?


Not Bon, but guessing Alanson Brown III 

ABIII

Sort of a cool acronym...


----------



## BonMallari

FOM said:


> Bon why do you refer to Lanse as ABIII instead of Lanse?



Alanson Brown III...


----------



## zipmarc

Is that not cool . His official initials, Alanson Brown III.


----------



## zipmarc

3 no birds in a row - Diesel has been excused from honor for having to sit through all that!


----------



## FOM

BonMallari said:


> Alanson Brown III...


I got that, but was curious as to why you refer to him as that vs. his first name? Just something I noticed...you switched gears on me and i was curious...


----------



## FOM

Okay poor man's math:

33 have run the setup
14 have handles
2 pick ups
4 with double handles (from the 3rd and 5th)


----------



## BonMallari

ABIII has also been know to be called d***head or _______head...or any less colorful monikers bestowed upon him...His wife refers to him as ACB, but calls him Brown when he is in the preverbial doghouse, which is all the time


----------



## FOM

The Blog said:


> * Diesel Has Been Excused From Honor... *
> 
> 
> ... After honoring through three no-birds, the Judges have released Alan Pleasant and Diesel.


And because the question has been raised about whether a dog has met the requirement of honoring until a dog is sent for a retrieve....it appears the answer is yes or at least according to this year's National judges.


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*3 No birds in a row!! I know how uptight folks get on the weekend when this happens......sure hope it levels out and they get a good run in! Feel for those folks as I know they are the best of the best, nerves are on edge I'm sure.

Good Luck Folks Regards!!

Aaron*


----------



## Laura McCaw

#75 on re-run is now a Pick-Up. (FC Mitimat You Go Girl)


----------



## Laura McCaw

Dog #74 completed re-run and dog #78 got a 2nd No-Bird.


----------



## Bridget Bodine

Woohoo go Grady , my future baby daddy....


----------



## BonMallari

there is a pheasant loose....they need a pointer or another upland dog


----------



## Gun_Dog2002

BonMallari said:


> ABIII has also been know to be called d***head or _______head...or any less colorful monikers bestowed upon him...His wife refers to him as ACB, but calls him Brown when he is in the preverbial doghouse, which is all the time



Does this mean we can now affectionately call you "Big BM"




/Paul


----------



## zipmarc

<<Originally Posted by *BonMallari*  
_ABIII has also been know to be called d***head or _______head...or any less colorful monikers bestowed upon him...His wife refers to him as ACB, but calls him Brown when he is in the preverbial doghouse, which is all the time:razz::razz:>>_



Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Does this mean we can now affectionately call you "Big BM"
> 
> /Paul


Paul - You Big Bad.:razz:


----------



## BonMallari

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Does this mean we can now affectionately call you "Big BM"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /Paul


ewwww no thanks


----------



## Gun_Dog2002

Well so much for nicknames....


/Paul


----------



## DoubleHaul

Anyone know what happened to dog 85? Was called back but seems to have been skipped on the blog, unless I just can't find it. Did they re-jigger because of the three no-birds in a row for Alan?

Never mind. Just ran, apparently. The no birds must have been the reason.


----------



## FOM

Series summary:
24 are "clean"
13 have a single handle in the 5th
2 have a single handle in the 3rd
4 have a handle in the 3rd and 5th
3 pick ups


----------



## EdA

Assuming they do a land blind next after day four 6 series will be complete with 3 days to do the remaining 4 series (3 marking tests and one water blind), plenty of time for a big water test or two, very efficient


----------



## zipmarc

EdA said:


> Assuming they do a land blind next after day four 6 series will be complete with 3 days to do the remaining 4 series (3 marking tests and one water blind), plenty of time for a big water test or two, very efficient



Almost half the field still in the running - probably won't lose too many in the 6th series land blind. The big cut will come with the water blind - it will be interesting to see if the 2nd water blind will have more challenges than the 1st - plenty of opportunity to set up a humdinger in Oakdale.

Edit: 38 dogs are back for the 6th: 2, 4, 5, 7, 14, 15, 18, 20, 22, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 36, 37, 38, 40, 42, 46, 47, 48, 49, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 58, 60, 70, 71, 72, 74, 78, 84, 85, 88


----------



## EdA

I am surprised that this has not stimulated any discussion

"Dog #55 is doing his re-run and has picked up the middle bird first. He's now en route to the left bird, and now has that flyer. One bird to go.

Paul is now handling on the right-hand flyer."

then this

" Dog #55 is being given another re-run.

He's being given some time to rest and cool off".

then this

"Right now, Paul is handling Shock to the middle bird. Keep in mind he's already been scored on this bird.

Now, he's en route to the left flyer. And currently handling to it. He's already been scored on this one, too. Has it--coming in.

He's headed up to the right-hand flyer. Made a tight loop at bottom of the cover, up and hunting flat and somewhat wide, down to edge of cover in flat again, and back up and around, he's still trying to hunt up this bird. The bird was a tight angle back fall. He's surely trying to stay with the bird. "


So dog #55 was given a rerun after retrieving all of the birds, it is apparent that in the course of retrieving the right flyer some sort of unfairness occurred.

At what point would/should the judges commence scoring the rerun on the right flyer keeping in mind that some hunting must have occurred prior to the handle and the apparent unfairness?


----------



## FOM

Call backs: 2, 4, 5, 7, 14, 15, 18, 20, 22, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 36, 37, 38, 40, 42, 46, 47, 48, 49, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 58, 60, 70, 71, 72, 74, 78, 84, 85, 88 (38 total)

Dogs dropped: 23, 33, 35, 44, 61, 65, 67, 75


----------



## Laura McCaw

That sux about #44 FC Contempt of Court getting out... that was one of my pick'ems.... also I noticed it was the only dog with a 5th series handle that was not called back. All the others that did not get called back had handled on a previous series as well as the 5th or they were picked up. Must have been a tough handle.  

Well, now I only got 5 left in my pick'em.


----------



## Jim Pickering

EdA said:


> I am surprised that this has not stimulated any discussion
> 
> "Dog #55 is doing his re-run and has picked up the middle bird first. He's now en route to the left bird, and now has that flyer. One bird to go.
> 
> Paul is now handling on the right-hand flyer."
> 
> then this
> 
> " Dog #55 is being given another re-run.
> 
> He's being given some time to rest and cool off".
> 
> then this
> 
> "Right now, Paul is handling Shock to the middle bird. Keep in mind he's already been scored on this bird.
> 
> Now, he's en route to the left flyer. And currently handling to it. He's already been scored on this one, too. Has it--coming in.
> 
> He's headed up to the right-hand flyer. Made a tight loop at bottom of the cover, up and hunting flat and somewhat wide, down to edge of cover in flat again, and back up and around, he's still trying to hunt up this bird. The bird was a tight angle back fall. He's surely trying to stay with the bird. "
> 
> 
> So dog #55 was given a rerun after retrieving all of the birds, it is apparent that in the course of retrieving the right flyer some sort of unfairness occurred.
> 
> At what point would/should the judges commence scoring the rerun on the right flyer keeping in mind that some hunting must have occurred prior to the handle and the apparent unfairness?


I do wonder why the dog was given the rerun after retrieving at least two birds. I am not sure the dog actually retrieved the third bird. Per Vickie's blog Paul was handling then he was asked to pick up the dog. Is it possible that the gunners radioed in that the bird was a runner. Ok it was a duck so maybe it waddled away?


----------



## BonMallari

are they at the Boatright or Goodrich properties


----------



## zipmarc

EdA said:


> I am surprised that this has not stimulated any discussion
> 
> "Dog #55 is doing his re-run and has picked up the middle bird first. He's now en route to the left bird, and now has that flyer. One bird to go.
> [...]
> At what point would/should the judges commence scoring the rerun on the right flyer keeping in mind that some hunting must have occurred prior to the handle and the apparent unfairness?


There would be lots of different opinions about this even if we were on the scene watching the entire test performed by this dog. Now we are trying to interpret from Vickie's pen, without even a video for visual guidance. Tall order, Dr. EdA ;-)


----------



## Breck

He would be judged from the presumed point of unfairness, right?
Is excusing the honor dog before a running dog was sent to retrieve kosher?


----------



## Breck

So? 
Has anyone heard which dogs have been exceptional so far?


----------



## john fallon

EdA said:


> I am surprised that this has not stimulated any discussion
> 
> "Dog #55 is doing his re-run and has picked up the middle bird first. He's now en route to the left bird, and now has that flyer. One bird to go.
> 
> Paul is now handling on the right-hand flyer."
> 
> then this
> 
> " Dog #55 is being given another re-run.
> 
> He's being given some time to rest and cool off".
> 
> then this
> 
> "Right now, Paul is handling Shock to the middle bird. Keep in mind he's already been scored on this bird.
> 
> Now, he's en route to the left flyer. And currently handling to it. He's already been scored on this one, too. Has it--coming in.
> 
> He's headed up to the right-hand flyer. Made a tight loop at bottom of the cover, up and hunting flat and somewhat wide, down to edge of cover in flat again, and back up and around, he's still trying to hunt up this bird. The bird was a tight angle back fall. He's surely trying to stay with the bird. "
> 
> 
> So dog #55 was given a rerun after retrieving all of the birds, it is apparent that in the course of retrieving the right flyer some sort of unfairness occurred.
> 
> At what point would/should the judges commence scoring the rerun on the right flyer keeping in mind that some hunting must have occurred prior to the handle and the apparent unfairness?


What would _Waylon_ do ?

john


----------



## EdA

Jim Pickering said:


> Is it possible that the gunners radioed in that the bird was a runner. Ok it was a duck so maybe it waddled away?


That would seem to be the most logical explanation


----------



## EdA

zipmarc said:


> There would be lots of different opinions about this even if we were on the scene watching the entire test performed by this dog. Now we are trying to interpret from Vickie's pen, without even a video for visual guidance. Tall order, Dr. EdA ;-)


an interesting exercise in hypothetical judging...



Breck said:


> He would be judged from the presumed point of unfairness, right?


Correct, and if it was a flier which walked away, or in the case with ducks, back to the crate the entire hunt would/should probably be disregarded 




Breck said:


> Is excusing the honor dog before a running dog was sent to retrieve kosher?


In this situation I think yes as he had honored through 3 consecutive no birds and all the attendant time spent picking up the birds, bringing the next dog to line, etc.


----------



## Brad Turner

For some reason, I thought it had something to do with the wasps.


----------



## zipmarc

Brad Turner said:


> For some reason, I thought it had something to do with the wasps.


Probably not this time of year?


----------



## zipmarc

<<Originally Posted by *zipmarc*  There would be lots of different opinions about this even if we were on the scene watching the entire test performed by this dog. Now we are trying to interpret from Vickie's pen, without even a video for visual guidance. Tall order, Dr. EdA :wink:>>




EdA said:


> an interesting exercise in hypothetical judging...


How often have we all done that, watching dogs run at a trial  ! Best time killer in the world - third guessing the judges.

And how many of us are really trained to compartmentalize our brains to disregard certain impressions or perceptions, but to embrace others? Those electromagnetic waves entering the brain cells are all interwoven - yet we fool ourselves into believing they are divisible and we have separated them and are being fair and neutral.


----------



## Laura McCaw

Dog #14 got a Pick-Up. (FC AFC Chatanika's High Water Haylee)


----------



## BonMallari

zipmarc said:


> <<Originally Posted by *zipmarc*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how many of us are really trained to compartmentalize our brains to disregard certain impressions or perceptions, but to embrace others? Those electromagnetic waves entering the brain cells are all interwoven - yet we fool ourselves into believing they are divisible and we have separated them and are being fair and neutral.


Mimi that's got to be the most brainiac thing I have ever read here on the RTF, can I use you as a lifeline if I ever get on Millionaire


----------



## Brad Turner

zipmarc said:


> Probably not this time of year?


Something was said about wasps, in the blog, right before the dog ran.


----------



## Howard N

Laura McCaw said:


> Dog #14 got a Pick-Up. (FC AFC Chatanika's High Water Haylee)


Oh NO!! I'm so sorry for Derrick. He's come so far with this little dog.

He's got a lot of future with her though so they'll be back.


----------



## RN

Same feeling here, Howard......I was thrilled with how well they were doing. Gotta feeling they'll get another chance at it again in the future.


----------



## zipmarc

<<Originally Posted by *zipmarc* And how many of us are really trained to compartmentalize our brains to disregard certain impressions or perceptions, but to embrace others? Those electromagnetic waves entering the brain cells are all interwoven - yet we fool ourselves into believing they are divisible and we have separated them and are being fair and neutral>>



BonMallari said:


> Mimi that's got to be the most brainiac thing I have ever read here on the RTF, can I use you as a lifeline if I ever get on Millionaire


Hey, anytime! After I figure out what brainiac means...


----------



## FOM

All dogs callback except the single pick up(#14)


----------



## BonMallari

zipmarc said:


> <<Originally Posted by *zipmarc* And how many of us are really trained to compartmentalize our brains to disregard certain impressions or perceptions, but to embrace others? Those electromagnetic waves entering the brain cells are all interwoven - yet we fool ourselves into believing they are divisible and we have separated them and are being fair and neutral>>
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, anytime! After I figure out what brainiac means...


it means you're smarter than everyone else in the room and we should listen and pay attention...


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> it means you're smarter than everyone else in the room and we should listen and pay attention...


They always say retriever field trialing is a thinking man's game - so I know there are a lot of brains lurking here. One thing for sure, though, you don't get rich by being smart.


----------



## DaveHare

Go Pirate!!!!!!! Go Ali!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep It Rolling.
Dave Hare


----------



## Judy Myers

I was fairly close to the line as a game steward so I will take a stab at relating what I think happened to dog #55. However, this is only my opinion based on what I saw. Others know far more than I. When #55 came to the line for the second time after the no bird, his flyer went very long and landed in a totally different place than any others I had seen. The line to the mark was very tight behind the short retired gunners. I believe the dog was sent to the flyer but enroute saw the short retired gunners retiring and ended up picking up the short bird. This had not been a problem for other dogs because their flyers had not fallen that close behind the short retired. The dog then picked up the pheasant flyer on the left. When sent for the duck flyer on the right, the dog ended up hunting back toward the short retired which was very close and was handled to the bird. The judges decided to give the dog a rerun. I can only guess it was because they felt that where the flyer fell in relation to the retiring short guns was unfair to the dog in comparison to the other dogs. On the re-run, the handler had to attempt to pick up the marks in the same order, so the handler did and handled the dog when it got in the area of the first two marks since performance on those marks did not count. The flyer on the rerun fell about as far from the original fall as could be imagined very short and close to the flyer gunners. The dog initially hunted the area of the long first fall but eventually made it's way to the bird. The gallery cheered. That is just my interpretation of what I saw and certainly not the definitive report.


----------



## zipmarc

Judy Myers said:


> I was fairly close to the line as a game steward so I will take a stab at relating what I think happened to dog #55. However, this is only my opinion based on what I saw. Others know far more than I. When #55 came to the line for the second time after the no bird, his flyer went very long and landed in a totally different place than any others I had seen. The line to the mark was very tight behind the short retired gunners. I believe the dog was sent to the flyer but enroute saw the short retired gunners retiring and ended up picking up the short bird. This had not been a problem for other dogs because their flyers had not fallen that close behind the short retired. The dog then picked up the pheasant flyer on the left. When sent for the duck flyer on the right, the dog ended up hunting back toward the short retired which was very close and was handled to the bird. The judges decided to give the dog a rerun. I can only guess it was because they felt that where the flyer fell in relation to the retiring short guns was unfair to the dog in comparison to the other dogs. On the re-run, the handler had to attempt to pick up the marks in the same order, so the handler did and handled the dog when it got in the area of the first two marks since performance on those marks did not count. The flyer on the rerun fell about as far from the original fall as could be imagined very short and close to the flyer gunners. The dog initially hunted the area of the long first fall but eventually made it's way to the bird. The gallery cheered. That is just my interpretation of what I saw and certainly not the definitive report.


In other words, there were two points in time where the judges could have stopped the test earlier - first when the flyer fell in the "wrong" place, and second, when they saw that the dog could see those gunners in the middle of retiring.

But they waited until the dog had to be handled away when he tried to go back to the short retired bird, and then called a re-run?


----------



## helencalif

BonMallari said:


> are they at the Boatright or Goodrich properties


They go to Boatright's in the morning. Sticking to their schedule, test dog is at 6:30. 

Don's wagon is draggin. Up at 4:00 every morning, out on the grounds by 6:00. Be on the mat by 6:30 a.m. or thereabouts, depending on which test dog runs first (Pitch or Ruby) or if the alternate test dog (Poncho) runs. Has to get up earlier tomorrow morning because Boatright's is farther away from the camping area. 

He can't say enough good things about the grounds and water at Woodward Reservoir. Excellent place for a national. Thanks to Sonya Harrigfeld who obtained permission from the county to use these grounds.

Helen


----------



## Howard N

zipmarc said:


> They always say retriever field trialing is a *thinking* man's game - so I know there are a lot of brains lurking here. One thing for sure, though, you don't get rich by being smart.


Oh crap, I don't stand a chance in trialing.


----------



## zipmarc

<<Originally Posted by *zipmarc*They always say retriever field trialing is a *thinking* man's game - so I know there are a lot of brains lurking here. One thing for sure, though, you don't get rich by being smart.>>




Howard N said:


> Oh crap, I don't stand a chance in trialing.


Oh Howard. This must mean you got filthy rich instead ! But we know you've done well in trials - so you must have the best of both worlds.


----------



## zipmarc

helencalif said:


> They go to Boatright's in the morning. Sticking to their schedule, test dog is at 6:30.
> 
> Don's wagon is draggin. Up at 4:00 every morning, out on the grounds by 6:00. Be on the mat by 6:30 a.m. or thereabouts, depending on which test dog runs first (Pitch or Ruby) or if the alternate test dog (Poncho) runs. Has to get up earlier tomorrow morning because Boatright's is farther away from the camping area.
> 
> He can't say enough good things about the grounds and water at Woodward Reservoir. Excellent place for a national. Thanks to Sonya Harrigfeld who obtained permission from the county to use these grounds.
> 
> Helen


Yeah, you need to add another 20 minutes to get to Boatwrights'. I was hoping they would do one of those Rex Carr style water blinds at Woodward. There isn't enough big water to do that at Boatwrights'. But there isn't ever enough time to do that kind of stuff anyway - unless you trained with Rex in the middle of January when nobody else was there.


----------



## JusticeDog

Laura McCaw said:


> That sux about #44 FC Contempt of Court getting out... that was one of my pick'ems....


Thanks Laura! and thanks to all who have supported Ruckus this past year. we've had a great time! I only look forward to the future with this 4 year old youngster. This year he finished over half of his opens, titled, and qualified for both nationals! And, we stood with 46 great dogs at the top of the 5th. I am very proud of him.  And, i am very blessed.

we have many to thank, including Jim vanEngen for his basics, Andy Attar for developing him into an All-Age Competitor, and to Mike Lardy for loaning me Ray Voight when Andy was not able to make it to Oakdale. Ray stepped up to the plate, and did a great job with Ruckus. they were quiet a team. You would never have known they had only been together about 2 1/2 weeks. And most of all, thanks to Ruckus' friends who have cheered him on since he was a baby dog running the derby. 

I pray he stays healthy, and Ruckus says he hopes to see you all for a little "ruckusing" at his next National!


----------



## Glenda Brown

Hi Susan:

Enjoyed watching Ruckus and Ray together. They made a good team and I know Ruckus will be there many times in the future.

Glenda Brown


----------



## Laura McCaw

JusticeDog said:


> Thanks Laura! and thanks to all who have supported Ruckus this past year. we've had a great time! I only look forward to the future with this 4 year old youngster. This year he finished over half of his opens, titled, and qualified for both nationals! And, we stood with 46 great dogs at the top of the 5th. I am very proud of him.  And, i am very blessed.
> 
> we have many to thank, including Jim vanEngen for his basics, Andy Attar for developing him into an All-Age Competitor, and to Mike Lardy for loaning me Ray Voight when Andy was not able to make it to Oakdale. Ray stepped up to the plate, and did a great job with Ruckus. they were quiet a team. You would never have known they had only been together about 2 1/2 weeks. And most of all, thanks to Ruckus' friends who have cheered him on since he was a baby dog running the derby.
> 
> I pray he stays healthy, and Ruckus says he hopes to see you all for a little "ruckusing" at his next National!


Well he has done extremely well for a youngster and I look forward to seeing him in more Nationals and he shall still be on my pick'em list. That boy is absolutely GORGEOUS and talented to boot.  I am glad y'all had fun and for a young dog, he sure did hang in there with the elders. Look forward to seeing many more accomplishments and wanted to say "great job" out there.


----------



## Bayou Magic

Lainee, might want to check your summary for 55. Summary shows a handle, callbacks say no handle. 

Thanks for doing this. Makes it easy to keep up.

fp

GEAUX PIPER!!!!


----------



## FOM

Bayou Magic said:


> Lainee, might want to check your summary for 55. Summary shows a handle, callbacks say no handle.
> 
> Thanks for doing this. Makes it easy to keep up.
> 
> fp
> 
> GEAUX PIPER!!!!


You are right, I put the handle in when he handled but then got a rerun and I forgot to remove it...thanks.


----------



## FOM

The 7th series description is up on the Report.


----------



## Brad Turner

Sounds like Piper is killing it.


----------



## BonMallari

this may take awhile...9-10 minutes per dog x36= 6 hrs...been to the Boatright/Goodrich property years ago, its spectacular piece of land


----------



## zipmarc

Four dogs have already run - all did pretty well.


----------



## FOM

Merlyn just handled (#78)


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

FC Piper is a female. Poor girl has been accused of being a male in all but one blog about her.


----------



## Laura McCaw

Jacob Hawkes said:


> FC Piper is a female. Poor girl has been accused of being a male in all but one blog about her.


I was noticing that too, poor girl.


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> ...been to the Boatright/Goodrich property years ago, its spectacular piece of land


I just love training there - the varied terrain, from cliffs to rocky, craggy stuff to smooth rolling slopes, with visibility of dogs at almost all times, to the vast array of vegetation, some with pungent smells. The vegetation on those grounds alone would have aggravated some hunts, especially if hen pheasants were used. Driving on those narrow, steep paths can be a harrowing experience, especially one of them, where there's a "Death" canal off to one side with rapid current. You fall in that, you're history. The water is a natural but technical. Still want to see the water blind at Woodward where there's big water but I guess that's not in the running.


----------



## FOM

Mercy (#7) handled...


----------



## Bayou Magic

Jacob Hawkes said:


> FC Piper is a female. Poor girl has been accused of being a male in all but one blog about her.


As long as she keeps hammering the tests, they can call her anything they want to call her!

fp


----------



## mjh345

Bayou Magic said:


> As long as she keeps hammering the tests, they can call her anything they want to call her!
> 
> fp


Hey Frank in the vein of Ru Paul and sexual confusion, and in light of wher she came from how bout we call her Roux Piper?


----------



## Lpgar

Is it just Me or has just about every marking test been run into the sun and glare??


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

Bayou Magic said:


> As long as she keeps hammering the tests, they can call her anything they want to call her!
> 
> fp


"Just win baby!!" regards?


----------



## Bayou Magic

mjh345 said:


> Hey Frank in the vein of Ru Paul and sexual confusion, and in light of wher she came from how bout we call her Roux Piper?


mjh, u r bad...



Jacob Hawkes said:


> "Just win baby!!" regards?


zzzzackly!

Long way to go regards,
fp


----------



## TroyFeeken

Way to go Pete! Keep it up!


----------



## stonybrook

Go #60 Tyson! Your brother, Atlas, and I are rooting for you!


----------



## BonMallari

Eva handled on the left retired gun and from the description had a hunt on the long retired,hard to tell if its a deal breaker, guess we'll find out soon...sure didnt help


----------



## Judy Myers

zipmarc said:


> The water is a natural but technical. Still want to see the water blind at Woodward where there's big water but I guess that's not in the running.


The water blind already held at Woodward was pretty big water. The photos and descriptions don't do it justice. I believe the swimming water was quite a bit more than the 100 yards mentioned in the writeup. Much of that blind was swimming water, contrary to the angle shown in the drawing or in the photo. From the gallery high up on a hill, you could see just how much water there was. From the dog's point of view, when they were handled off the early point, it looked like they were headed out to sea. Very intimidating. I overheard one pro saying it was the most water he had seen in a water blind at a National in 10 years.


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*K so we are gonna get through 7 today, maybe start 8, I am assuming 8 is a water blind and 9 and 10 both marking series. Will they run their water blind at the same location? Anyone in the know....know? Just wondering, looking at the pics of this test, definitely some nice wb options on this property.

Ideas Regards?

Aaron*


----------



## TroyFeeken

Aaron Homburg said:


> *K so we are gonna get through 7 today, maybe start 8, I am assuming 8 is a water blind and 9 and 10 both marking series. Will they run their water blind at the same location? Anyone in the know....know? Just wondering, looking at the pics of this test, definitely some nice wb options on this property.
> 
> Ideas Regards?
> 
> Aaron*


8 dogs left for this series from the looks of it so it's conceivable that they'd start the 8th today.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

Bayou Magic said:


> zzzzackly!
> 
> Long way to go regards,
> fp


Agreed.

T T T Tia.


----------



## BonMallari

Aaron Homburg said:


> *K so we are gonna get through 7 today, maybe start 8, I am assuming 8 is a water blind and 9 and 10 both marking series. Will they run their water blind at the same location? Anyone in the know....know? Just wondering, looking at the pics of this test, definitely some nice wb options on this property.
> 
> Ideas Regards?
> 
> Aaron*


they are apparently setting up for the next test in the same location from a different angle...dont know if that spells another set of marks or a blind..logic would dictate if series 8 is another set of marks , series 9 would be a blind and then 10 the quad...don not take that as anything more than a guess from 600 miles away


----------



## helencalif

Will somebody on the trial grounds tell Tina Ebner that she has incorrectly identified the test dog for Series 7... ?

The test dog in the picture with Don Graves is our RUBY, a black Lab female. It is not Poncho. 

AFC Buck N Poncho is a yellow male owned and handled by Mary Ahlgren. 

They will finish Series 7 and start Series 8. I know what Series 8 is, but I am not telling ...
Rain is predicted tonight and is supposed to carry over into tomorrow. If the weatherman is correct, some dogs will run without rain this afternoon and others will run in either showers or rain tomorrow. 

Helen


----------



## BonMallari

helencalif said:


> Will somebody on the trial grounds tell Tina Ebner that she has incorrectly identified the test dog for Series 7... ?
> *
> The test dog in the picture with Don Graves is our RUBY, a black Lab female. It is not Poncho. *
> 
> AFC Buck N Poncho is a yellow male owned and handled by Mary Ahlgren.
> 
> They will finish Series 7 and start Series 8. I know what Series 8 is, but I am not telling ...
> Rain is predicted tonight and is supposed to carry over into tomorrow. If the weatherman is correct, some dogs will run without rain this afternoon and others will run in either showers or rain tomorrow.
> 
> Helen


I saw that picture this morning but figured it was because I had not visited Starbucks yet...

I just hope Eva and ABIII get to see the 8th no matter what it is...


----------



## Donald Flanagan

I just scrolled through the latest set of posts on the blog, and the landscape in some of these photos looks very familiar to me. It looks like something I saw in some of the videos of previous nationals that could be seen on the AKC website. Were any of the 2005/2006/2007 NRC's held there?


----------



## BonMallari

the Boatright/Goodrich property has been used for previous National events not sure the exact year(s)


----------



## Breck

2003 when Patton won?


----------



## JusticeDog

You have to admire all the dog talent out there: There is a young dog Emmitt, 3 years old, that is trained by Gonia that is an eye-catcher. "Perfect Pete" is running well, Piper and Tia are running well. Grady is always a favorite..... Fizz is a nice bitch to watch as well. Billie was also a nice one that Karl gunzer is running. 

Fun to see these nice dogs in person!


----------



## zipmarc

helencalif said:


> Will somebody on the trial grounds tell Tina Ebner that she has incorrectly identified the test dog for Series 7... ?
> 
> The test dog in the picture with Don Graves is our RUBY, a black Lab female. It is not Poncho.
> 
> AFC Buck N Poncho is a yellow male owned and handled by Mary Ahlgren.
> 
> They will finish Series 7 and start Series 8. I know what Series 8 is, but I am not telling ...
> Rain is predicted tonight and is supposed to carry over into tomorrow. If the weatherman is correct, some dogs will run without rain this afternoon and others will run in either showers or rain tomorrow.
> 
> Helen


It's ok if you can't tell the difference between a yellow lab (Poncho) from a black (Ruby), but not to be able to tell the difference between a male and a female is...TSK...TSK...TSK !


----------



## FOM

Callbacks: 7, 15, 20, 28, 31, 32, 36, 38, 40, 42, 47, 49, 51, 53, 54, 58, 60, 70, 71, 72, 74, 78, 84, 85, 88 (25 total)

Dogs dropped: 2, 4, 5, 18, 22, 29, 30, 37, 46, 48, 55, 56 (12 total)


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

Breck said:


> 2003 when Patton won?


Oui. That's correct.


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> the Boatright/Goodrich property has been used for previous National events not sure the exact year(s)


Right after/around the time that Rex Carr died - maybe 2003 or 2004? Still wanting to see a really out-to-sea water blind, one that one ups the first water blind in this National  !


----------



## zipmarc

25 dogs back and starting to run the 8th.


----------



## BonMallari

zipmarc said:


> Right after/around the time that Rex Carr died - maybe 2003 or 2004? Still wanting to see a really out-to-sea water blind, one that one ups the first water blind in this National  !


Mimi so do I, but as was pointed out to me by Dr A,probably wasnt going to get my/our wish anytime soon...

didnt Billy Sargenti win his National at Oakdale, I thought Cal Cadmus won there in 86 but maybe I am mistaken because of where he lives


----------



## FOM

8th series is a Quad with 2 flyers


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> Mimi so do I, but as was pointed out to me by Dr A,probably wasnt going to get my/our wish anytime soon...
> 
> didnt Billy Sargenti win his National at Oakdale, I thought Cal Cadmus won there in 86 but maybe I am mistaken because of where he lives


The last time the National was run in Oakdale was in 1999, and Billy did win that one with FC-AFC Croppers River Water Black Teal. 

Cal Cadmus won the National Amateur in 1986 with FC-AFC Winsom Cargo, also in Oakdale? - not sure. My memory sez Oregon. It would have been too hot in June to run a National Amateur in Oakdale.

Edit: That can't be right - where Cargo won his Natl Am - because Cody won in 1984 in Redding CA (?), so the 1986 National Amateur would not have rotated back to the West Coast. Who's got the answer?


----------



## BonMallari

25 dogs remain, two tests tomorrow and one on Sat....right on schedule 

Kudos to EVERYONE who has gone this far..gonna take three flawless tests to win it...


----------



## Fred Warf

The last time the National was run in Oakdale was in 1999, and Billy did win that one with FC-AFC Croppers River Water Black Teal. 

Also held at Oakdale 2003


----------



## zipmarc

Fred Warf said:


> The last time the National was run in Oakdale was in 1999, and Billy did win that one with FC-AFC Croppers River Water Black Teal.
> 
> Also held at Oakdale 2003



Oh, if Billy didn't win in 2003 I wouldn't have remembered that one.


----------



## DaveHare

Go Ali!!!!!!!! Go Pirate!!!!!!!!! Keep It Rolling.
Dave Hare


----------



## Cowtown

Anyone there know why Grady was dropped? I thought he was clean. It's hard to tell from the blog on his last series. It seems most dogs that were dropped had been handled but I thought Grady was clean so far.

Congrats to all the dogs and handlers still playing!


----------



## BonMallari

don't know about Grady.... but the judges may have to make a decision in the morning, they ran the test dogs and the first dog out Reagan #84 was apparently sent but enroute they were told the flyer got away..so they had Michael pick him up BEFORE he retrieved anything...if the wind shifts as expected it will change the test and they may have to go to plan B...


----------



## Jeff Bartlett

HarryWilliams said:


> As far as the Pick 'em is concerned.....Please pass the bandaids. HPW


This had to be the toughest Pickem I've done do many nice dogs. I was thorn picking my picks I still would have eight dogs with picks i wanted.


----------



## Wayne Beck

Go Pink!!!!!


----------



## HiRollerlabs

zipmarc said:


> The last time the National was run in Oakdale was in 1999, and Billy did win that one with FC-AFC Croppers River Water Black Teal.
> 
> Cal Cadmus won the National Amateur in 1986 with FC-AFC Winsom Cargo, also in Oakdale? - not sure. My memory sez Oregon. It would have been too hot in June to run a National Amateur in Oakdale.
> 
> Edit: That can't be right - where Cargo won his Natl Am - because Cody won in 1984 in Redding CA (?), so the 1986 National Amateur would not have rotated back to the West Coast. Who's got the answer?


theRetrieverNews.com says these were the National Amateur Championship winners :

1987 FC-AFC-CFC-CAFC Westwind Jemima Super Cake, LF
Eva Proby, Seattle, WA
1986 FC-AFC Winsom Cargo, LM
Cal Cadmus, DVM, Oakdale, CA
1985 FC-AFC Topbrass Cotton, GM
Jeff & Bev Finely & Jackie Mertens, Elgin, IL 
1984 FC-AFC Trumarc's Zip Code, LM
Judith Aycock, Lewisville, TX
1983 FC-AFC Beorn's Blazing Hydropsyche, LM
Dr. William & Cynthia Howard, Walla Walla, WA


----------



## HiRollerlabs

BonMallari said:


> the first dog out Reagan #84 was apparently sent but enroute they were told the flyer got away..so they had Michael pick him up BEFORE he retrieved anything..


Reagan is a "girl", like Piper! Go Reagan!!!


----------



## zipmarc

Bob/Ann Heise: But WHERE was the National Am held, which Cal's Cargo won in 1986? We're trying to figure that out!


----------



## HiRollerlabs

zipmarc said:


> Bob/Ann Heise: But WHERE was the National Am held, which Cal's Cargo won in 1986? We're trying to figure that out!


Bon, I will see if Uncle Carl remembers where the 1986 NARC was held. Junbe may have the info, or ask ABIII--he was most likely there! Ann


----------



## EdA

HiRollerlabs said:


> Bon, I will see if Uncle Carl remembers where the 1986 NARC was held. Junbe may have the info, or ask ABIII--he was most likely there! Ann


Bend Oregon, the judges Deborah Morgan, Richard Bartlett, & Vern Weber

I was there with NAFC FC Trumarc's Zip Code and FC AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit 

There are stories aplenty but not to be revealed on a public forum


----------



## mlopez

Cowtown said:


> Anyone there know why Grady was dropped? I thought he was clean. It's hard to tell from the blog on his last series. It seems most dogs that were dropped had been handled but I thought Grady was clean so far.


I was wondering the exact same thing. There were dogs that handled in the 7th series that weren't dropped. From the blog and callback list, it looks like Grady didn't handle at all. Interesting.


----------



## zipmarc

<<Originally Posted by *zipmarc* The last time the National was run in Oakdale was in 1999, and Billy did win that one with FC-AFC Croppers River Water Black Teal. _Cal Cadmus won the National Amateur in 1986 with FC-AFC Winsom Cargo, also in Oakdale? - not sure. My memory sez Oregon. It would have been too hot in June to run a National Amateur in Oakdale. Edit: That can't be right - where Cargo won his Natl Am - because Cody won in 1984 in Redding CA (?), so the 1986 National Amateur would not have rotated back to the West Coast. Who's got the answer?_



EdA said:


> Bend Oregon, the judges Deborah Morgan, Richard Bartlett, & Vern Weber
> 
> I was there with NAFC FC Trumarc's Zip Code and FC AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit
> 
> There are stories aplenty but not to be revealed on a public forum



So...where was the 1984 Natl Amateur held, where Cody won? Couldn't have been Redding CA, then.


----------



## EdA

Cody won in Stowe Vermont, unfortunately for me I stayed home to work and did not participate in the post win festivities


----------



## firehouselabs

Any wagering on who the winner is going to be? Will it be a girl or a boy, young or "experienced". 

My votes are for Piper or Pirate.


----------



## Brad Turner

mlopez said:


> I was wondering the exact same thing. There were dogs that handled in the 7th series that weren't dropped. From the blog and callback list, it looks like Grady didn't handle at all. Interesting.


I spoke with Chad just after he ran that series. He didn't handle, but Grady had a big hunt on the right long retired. The judges have their reasons...I hate it for them though. I always pull for the G-Man!


----------



## Laura McCaw

firehouselabs said:


> Any wagering on who the winner is going to be? Will it be a girl or a boy, young or "experienced".
> 
> My votes are for Piper or Pirate.


I am really going for Pirate, but a girl would be nice also.


----------



## zipmarc

Go, Pirate!


----------



## labguy

firehouselabs said:


> Any wagering on who the winner is going to be? Will it be a girl or a boy, young or "experienced".
> 
> My votes are for Piper or Pirate.


Molly #74. Nice dog, lots of talent. Like any of the others, a bit of good luck will probably decide it.


----------



## ReedCreek

Brad Turner said:


> I spoke with Chad just after he ran that series. He didn't handle, but Grady had a big hunt on the right long retired. The judges have their reasons...I hate it for them though. I always pull for the G-Man!



I was pulling for them as well. Grady has displayed so much talent and heart and Chad has been behind him all the way... I hated to see that they went out. 

Best of luck to all the great dogs and handlers that are still running!


----------



## Mastercaster

firehouselabs said:


> Any wagering on who the winner is going to be? Will it be a girl or a boy, young or "experienced".
> 
> My votes are for Piper or Pirate.


I'm pulling for Pirate. I just think he's due.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

firehouselabs said:


> Any wagering on who the winner is going to be? Will it be a girl or a boy, young or "experienced".
> 
> My votes are for Piper or Pirate.


T T T Tia & Ali.


----------



## 2tall

Will anyone venture an opinion on why Grady was dropped? The only comment I saw was that "he stayed dry on a mark". Is there more to it from the perspective of folks that actually saw his run?


----------



## wayne anderson

Go Pete and Steve!!


----------



## wayne anderson

By the way, why is #7 first dog tomorrow rather than #87, etc? New test?? Just curious...


----------



## zipmarc

2tall said:


> Will anyone venture an opinion on why Grady was dropped? The only comment I saw was that "he stayed dry on a mark". Is there more to it from the perspective of folks that actually saw his run?


Brad Turner answered that already. Grady had a big hunt on the long right retired bird.


----------



## mjh345

2tall said:


> Will anyone venture an opinion on why Grady was dropped? The only comment I saw was that "he stayed dry on a mark". Is there more to it from the perspective of folks that actually saw his run?


Im not there, but Im willing to venture an opinion on behalf of everyone curious as to why Grady was dropped

My opinion as to why Grady was dropped is because the 3 judges who are there and are being paid the big bucks to make this call felt that his work wasn't worthy of being called back.

Either that or maybe he has stepped on all his marks and has lined all his blinds, but the judges are part of a conspiracy that is out to torpedo and hold down dogs based on their color

Just a hunch!!


----------



## wayne anderson

My point is that 85 and 88 follow 84 in progression, before 7, so why is 7 starting dog Friday, unless judges are scrapping test 8 and starting a new test?


----------



## Cowtown

mjh345 said:


> Im not there, but Im willing to venture an opinion on behalf of everyone curious as to why Grady was dropped
> 
> My opinion as to why Grady was dropped is because the 3 judges who are there and are being paid the big bucks to make this call felt that his work wasn't worthy of being called back.
> 
> Either that or maybe he has stepped on all his marks and has lined all his blinds, but the judges are part of a conspiracy that is out to torpedo and hold down dogs based on their color
> 
> Just a hunch!!


More of a smart assed comment rather than an opinion. Feel better?

We're trying to have an adult conversation and understand what's going on at the National. Go back to your coloring books.


----------



## Doug Moore

Cowtown said:


> More of a smart assed comment rather than an opinion. Feel better?
> 
> We're trying to have an adult conversation and understand what's going on at the National. Go back to your coloring books.


But open-ended questions asked like that somehow lead to others thinking you're second guessing the judges. I know that was not the intent but then you will have those questioning why a dog with a handle was carried and one clean was not.


----------



## JeffLusk

Come on Emmitt and Boss!!!!


----------



## Mark L

Ok, I have a question that may be in this thread, but I don't have time to go through all 30+ pages.

Where in Oakdale is the test? I am planning on going out tomorrow to watch for awhile and I want to know where to at least start looking.

Thanks in advance.

Mark L


----------



## mjh345

Cowtown said:


> More of a smart assed comment rather than an opinion. Feel better?
> 
> We're trying to have an adult conversation and understand what's going on at the National. Go back to your coloring books.


So you are sitting at your computer 100's of miles away from the National and doing your best "adult" CSI investigation as to why Grady was not called back
Unless the other adults with whom your having your "adult conversation" with are named Haskins, Jolley and Goettl then you are wasting your time; and insulting many.

I'll leave you and your other "adults" to carry on your definitive conversation to ascertain callbacks. Before I head back to my coloring book won't you please let me know what shade of Crayon I should use to color the sky in your world.

happy to not be sitting at the adult table at your Thanksgiving regards


----------



## mlopez

Doug Moore said:


> But open-ended questions asked like that somehow lead to others thinking you're second guessing the judges. I know that was not the intent but then you will have those questioning why a dog with a handle was carried and one clean was not.


My intention was definitely not to question the judges. I think that they have put together a bunch of good tests so far. Just trying to get more information than was provided in the blog. I can't tell from here who had a big handle, little handle, cast refusal, big hunt, kind of big hunt, etc... I just didn't see much in the blog that suggested a drop. Sorry if it sounded like questioning the judges. Thanks to Brad Turner for giving a further explanation.


----------



## ClaytonT

Dude! The guy along with the rest of us was just curious about what had happened to Grady the blog was hard to understand about his run. Not only were you being a smart a$$ you were being disrespectful! Grady just happens to be a NAFC and you talk like he didnt deserve to be there and did a horrible job, must be jealous cuz your dog isn't half what he is!! And also the smart a$$ comment bout color doesn't make sense cuz hes black along with almost every other dog there, nice try tho. 

Congrats to chad and grady for making that far!


----------



## tripsteer1

Go Pirate And Jerry!!~~!~~~


----------



## zipmarc

Mark L said:


> Ok, I have a question that may be in this thread, but I don't have time to go through all 30+ pages.
> 
> Where in Oakdale is the test? I am planning on going out tomorrow to watch for awhile and I want to know where to at least start looking.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Mark L


Tomorrow it will be at Boatwrights/Goodrichs property. Orange Blossom Rd the gate is on the left across from Morrison Rd. There should be signs.


----------



## Fred Warf

zipmarc said:


> Tomorrow it will be at Boatwrights/Goodrichs property. Orange Blossom Rd the gate is on the left across from Morrison Rd. There should be signs.



Driving directions to Orange Blossom Rd & Morrison Rd, Oakdale, CA 95361
Tracy, CA
*1.* Head *east* on *E 11th St/I-205 BUS* toward *El Portal St* 
0.6 mi 
*2.* Slight right onto *N MacArthur Dr* 
2.1 mi 
*3.* Turn right to merge onto *I-205 E* 
5.5 mi 
*4.* Merge onto *I-5 N* 
0.8 mi 
*5.* Take exit *461* to merge onto *CA-120 E* toward *Manteca/Sonora* 
6.4 mi 
*6.* Keep left at the fork, follow signs for *CA-99 N/Sacramento/CA-120/Sonora N* and merge onto *CA-120 E/CA-99 N* 
1.7 mi 
*7.* Take exit *242* for *CA-120 E/Yosemite Ave* toward *Sonora* 
0.2 mi 
*8.* Turn right onto *CA-120 E/E Yosemite Ave*Continue to follow CA-120 E
19.8 mi 
*9.* Turn left onto *CA-108 E/CA-120 E/E F St*Continue to follow CA-108 E/CA-120 E
3.7 mi 
*10.* Turn left onto *Orange Blossom Rd* 
5.5 mi 
Orange Blossom Rd & Morrison Rd
Oakdale, CA 95361


----------



## Mark L

Thank you.


----------



## Chad Baker

Hey guys we had some nice marks in the trial but we had some squiggles also no huge hunts till today. I made a decision to pull the gmam out a little on the long retired I thought he was looking a tiny bit left I clicked him one notch too far. He ran about 8 to 10 yds to the right of the bird tried to clime the cliff slid down and then climbed the two hills behind the bird then made a big loop thru the back pond in front of the holding blind and recovered the bird. Hell he might have seen the guns from the top looking down on the holding blind I don't know. But we gave the judges a good reason to let us go no complaints here. Sure would of liked to have tried that 8th out it looked fun! I can tell you these guys know where to put birds and have ran a very efficient trial so far. In my opinion there are only about 6 dogs that have ran a very clean trial up to this point and these guys won't let up I wish everyone left good luck!!! This old black dog laying beside me in the bed doesn't owe anything he gives me 110% on everything he does and I just wish I would have made a little better decision today on my handling. The judges,workers and gunners have put on a great trial on really nice grounds we had a lot of fun thank you. We were just glad to get to run it up to this point!!!
Chad and gman


----------



## BonMallari

Chad Baker said:


> Hey guys we had some nice marks in the trial but we had some squiggles also no huge hunts till today. I made a decision to pull the gmam out a little on the long retired I thought he was looking a tiny bit left I clicked him one notch too far. He ran about 8 to 10 yds to the right of the bird tried to clime the cliff slid down and then climbed the two hills behind the bird then made a big loop thru the back pond in front of the holding blind and recovered the bird. Hell he might have seen the guns from the top looking down on the holding blind I don't know. But we gave the judges a good reason to let us go no complaints here. Sure would of liked to have tried that 8th out it looked fun! I can tell you these guys know where to put birds and have ran a very efficient trial so far. In my opinion there are only about 6 dogs that have ran a very clean trial up to this point and these guys won't let up I wish everyone left good luck!!! This old black dog laying beside me in the bed doesn't owe anything he gives me 110% on everything he does and I just wish I would have made a little better decision today on my handling. The judges,workers and gunners have put on a great trial on really nice grounds we had a lot of fun thank you. We were just glad to get to run it up to this point!!!
> Chad and gman


Classy move Mr Baker...very classy


----------



## Mallard1

Hey, at this level any dog deserves to be there, and any dog could win it all.

My main man is Pirate, I hope he wins it all. I have one of his daughters.

But I and countless others hope one day to have a litter by Grady, one of the great dogs of our time, and a dog that could just as well won this whole thing on a given day.

Great dog, great handler in Chad.


----------



## zipmarc

wayne anderson said:


> My point is that 85 and 88 follow 84 in progression, before 7, so why is 7 starting dog Friday, unless judges are scrapping test 8 and starting a new test?


* From Blog:*

*Correction to the Starting Number Announcement *


It was previously officially announced that dog #7 would start in the morning. This was because it was thought--at that time--that dogs 85 and 88 had each already started a series. As it turns out, only dog #85 had started a series, thus moving dog #88 into the starting number slot for the morning, and the announcement has been amended as such.


----------



## Dan Wegner

zipmarc said:


> * From Blog:*
> 
> *Correction to the Starting Number Announcement *
> 
> 
> It was previously officially announced that dog #7 would start in the morning. This was because it was thought--at that time--that dogs 85 and 88 had each already started a series. As it turns out, only dog #85 had started a series, thus moving dog #88 into the starting number slot for the morning, and the announcement has been amended as such.


Dog #88 - Rock On Miss Pink! Show 'em how it's done!

Best of luck to all that have survived to this point, however, in the end there can be only ONE.


----------



## ReedCreek

Chad Baker said:


> Hey guys we had some nice marks in the trial but we had some squiggles also no huge hunts till today. I made a decision to pull the gmam out a little on the long retired I thought he was looking a tiny bit left I clicked him one notch too far. He ran about 8 to 10 yds to the right of the bird tried to clime the cliff slid down and then climbed the two hills behind the bird then made a big loop thru the back pond in front of the holding blind and recovered the bird. Hell he might have seen the guns from the top looking down on the holding blind I don't know. But we gave the judges a good reason to let us go no complaints here. Sure would of liked to have tried that 8th out it looked fun! I can tell you these guys know where to put birds and have ran a very efficient trial so far. In my opinion there are only about 6 dogs that have ran a very clean trial up to this point and these guys won't let up I wish everyone left good luck!!! This old black dog laying beside me in the bed doesn't owe anything he gives me 110% on everything he does and I just wish I would have made a little better decision today on my handling. The judges,workers and gunners have put on a great trial on really nice grounds we had a lot of fun thank you. We were just glad to get to run it up to this point!!!
> Chad and gman


This response is one of the reasons I am so behind this team; thank you Chad for your reply. You and Grady are a class act! In one year obtaining an NAFC title and running the 7th series of the NFC is no small thing. HUGE congratulations! 

Again, good luck to all the other fine teams running.


----------



## TIM DOANE

Thanks Chad, I was wondering too but didnt want to get involved here. Your dog is good for this game and its starting to look like you are also VERY good for this game.


----------



## Wayne Nutt

I am pulling for Pirate also. I wonder if he is one of the six that Chad Baker mentioned that is really doing well? He is clean so far. Anybody know or have an opinion as to how he is doing in comparsion to the other 25?

I am training a Pirate pup now and have an order in for another, different dam. If he wins, thank goodness I have already have a price agreement for the expected pup and a deposit down.


----------



## lablover

It sure would be nice if persons names were under the candid pictures.


----------



## ErinsEdge

A couple of years back there were complaints that the blog characterized the hunts and handles too specifically such as gorilla hunt etc so the blog purposely does not describe too much. You either have to be a judge, the handler, or a worker taking birds on line to know what the run really looked like. Even the gallery can't always see it all.


----------



## Cowtown

mjh345 said:


> So you are sitting at your computer 100's of miles away from the National and doing your best "adult" CSI investigation as to why Grady was not called back
> Unless the other adults with whom your having your "adult conversation" with are named Haskins, Jolley and Goettl then you are wasting your time; and insulting many.
> 
> I'll leave you and your other "adults" to carry on your definitive conversation to ascertain callbacks. Before I head back to my coloring book won't you please let me know what shade of Crayon I should use to color the sky in your world.
> 
> happy to not be sitting at the adult table at your Thanksgiving regards


Must be fun to live in your world. haha

It's National week. The current NAFC just got dropped. Many here, including me, were rooting for him. I asked a simple question for "anyone there" to provide supplemental info to the blog to help understand why he was dropped. No one is questioning anyone (judges).

Not sure why you're all hot and bothered over a simple question about a dog that was the overwhelming Pick Em favorite.


----------



## Cowtown

Chad Baker said:


> Hey guys we had some nice marks in the trial but we had some squiggles also no huge hunts till today. I made a decision to pull the gmam out a little on the long retired I thought he was looking a tiny bit left I clicked him one notch too far. He ran about 8 to 10 yds to the right of the bird tried to clime the cliff slid down and then climbed the two hills behind the bird then made a big loop thru the back pond in front of the holding blind and recovered the bird. Hell he might have seen the guns from the top looking down on the holding blind I don't know. But we gave the judges a good reason to let us go no complaints here. Sure would of liked to have tried that 8th out it looked fun! I can tell you these guys know where to put birds and have ran a very efficient trial so far. In my opinion there are only about 6 dogs that have ran a very clean trial up to this point and these guys won't let up I wish everyone left good luck!!! This old black dog laying beside me in the bed doesn't owe anything he gives me 110% on everything he does and I just wish I would have made a little better decision today on my handling. The judges,workers and gunners have put on a great trial on really nice grounds we had a lot of fun thank you. We were just glad to get to run it up to this point!!!
> Chad and gman


Thanks for the post Chad. Congrats on your incredible year! I'm a big fan of the Gman!


----------



## Guest

Thanks Chad, Good Job well done, to you and Grady


----------



## Becky Mills

Dern Chad, I do believe that reply just earned you some cookies. We're proud of you and your G Man.
Take Care,
Becky


----------



## bjoiner

Becky Mills said:


> Dern Chad, I do believe that reply just earned you some cookies. We're proud of you and your G Man.
> Take Care,
> Becky


Take her up on the cookies. Their good.:razz:


----------



## Becky Mills

Bubba, trust me. He's had some and makes a pest of himself whenever I'm around.


----------



## Judy Chute

ReedCreek said:


> This response is one of the reasons I am so behind this team; thank you Chad for your reply. You and Grady are a class act! In one year obtaining an NAFC title and running the 7th series of the NFC is no small thing. HUGE congratulations!
> 
> Again, good luck to all the other fine teams running.


A class act indeed. Great post as to the team work, result of Grady taking the line given.....(one notch too far right)...great respect and appreciation for his dog...and the sport.

Hope Becky's cookies find their way to Chad and "Grady's" mailbox!!

Judy


----------



## john fallon

It wouldn't have made me mad to see Grady and Chad still in it at the very end.

john


----------



## 2tall

Chad, thanks so much for your post about Grady's run! That is what I was looking for, just a description of what he did. I don't see anything wrong with having a virtual favorite to pull for in the National. Nor did I find any issue with any decision made by the judges. A great dog had a great trial and I had fun cheering him on from a distance

Hey Marc! How in the heck did I rattle YOUR cage this morning? (or maybe last night). You have not jumped on me in a long time, thought you had me on ignore


----------



## Buzz

ErinsEdge said:


> A couple of years back there were complaints that the blog characterized the hunts and handles too specifically such as gorilla hunt etc so the blog purposely does not describe too much. You either have to be a judge, the handler, or a worker taking birds on line to know what the run really looked like. Even the gallery can't always see it all.


Correct, and I fear that too much discussion of the type we've seen will once again stifle the flow of information. The coverage has been fantastic, it has literally had me on the edge of my seat most of the week. I appreciate what the RN team is doing, keep up the good work!





Wayne Nutt said:


> I am training a Pirate pup now and have an order in for another, different dam. If he wins, *thank goodness I have already have a price agreement* for the expected pup and a deposit down.


Does a litter sired by an NFC command a lot higher price than one sired by a stud such as Pirate without an NFC? He is already known to throw some very very nice pups. I would think that the female bred to a dog like him would be the biggest factor to really impact the puppy price...


----------



## FOM

wayne anderson said:


> My point is that 85 and 88 follow 84 in progression, before 7, so why is 7 starting dog Friday, unless judges are scrapping test 8 and starting a new test?


Read the blog, it's updated, there was some confussion, dog #88 will start the 8th which has been changed to a water blind.


----------



## Franco

Ali ! Ali ! Ali !


----------



## tshuntin

Chad Baker said:


> Hey guys we had some nice marks in the trial but we had some squiggles also no huge hunts till today. I made a decision to pull the gmam out a little on the long retired I thought he was looking a tiny bit left I clicked him one notch too far. He ran about 8 to 10 yds to the right of the bird tried to clime the cliff slid down and then climbed the two hills behind the bird then made a big loop thru the back pond in front of the holding blind and recovered the bird. Hell he might have seen the guns from the top looking down on the holding blind I don't know. But we gave the judges a good reason to let us go no complaints here. Sure would of liked to have tried that 8th out it looked fun! I can tell you these guys know where to put birds and have ran a very efficient trial so far. In my opinion there are only about 6 dogs that have ran a very clean trial up to this point and these guys won't let up I wish everyone left good luck!!! This old black dog laying beside me in the bed doesn't owe anything he gives me 110% on everything he does and I just wish I would have made a little better decision today on my handling. The judges,workers and gunners have put on a great trial on really nice grounds we had a lot of fun thank you. We were just glad to get to run it up to this point!!!
> Chad and gman


Thanks for sharing Chad! Sure can't wait to get our GMAN pups here hopefully early next year!


----------



## BonMallari

the weather and wind must have changed, they are going to a water blind


----------



## FOM

So do people like the stats that Ann Heise and I (mostly Ann) have put up on the Summary thread? Is this something we would like to carry over with the future Nationals and summary threads? Or is it a waste of brain cell activity?


----------



## Lesa Cozens Dauphin

FOM said:


> So do people like the stats that Ann Heise and I (mostly Ann) have put up on the Summary thread? Is this something we would like to carry over with the future Nationals and summary threads? Or is it a waste of brain cell activity?


I know it is lots of work, but I for one LOVE IT!!

lesa c


----------



## HarryWilliams

FOM said:


> So do people like the stats that Ann Heise and I (mostly Ann) have put up on the Summary thread? Is this something we would like to carry over with the future Nationals and summary threads? Or is it a waste of brain cell activity?


Yes. Yes. Yes.  HPW


----------



## FOM

lesa c said:


> I know it is lots of work, but I for one LOVE IT!!
> 
> lesa c


Ann did the hard work, but now all I have to do is carry it over from National to National and just keep it updated...just didn't know if people liked it. If you do, please let Ann know! 

FOM


----------



## TroyFeeken

FOM said:


> Ann did the hard work, but now all I have to do is carry it over from National to National and just keep it updated...just didn't know if people liked it. If you do, please let Ann know!
> 
> FOM


Great work ladies! Very much appreciated!


----------



## zipmarc

FOM said:


> So do people like the stats that Ann Heise and I (mostly Ann) have put up on the Summary thread? Is this something we would like to carry over with the future Nationals and summary threads? Or is it a waste of brain cell activity?


Fantastic! Kudos to both of you. Used to be able to search Retriever News archives for such information, but now only limited data is available at the AKC website.

Nice to have it all in the same place here!


----------



## BonMallari

Eva and ABIII had a nice job on the water blind, just hope its enough to get them to the 9th


----------



## scott spalding

What is a methodical blind.


----------



## Howard N

scott spalding said:


> What is a methodical blind.


Just a pure guess Scott. 

I think it's Vicky's code for an OK blind the dog took the casts and did what he was supposed to do. But nothing special.

Wonder if they'll drop some of the "methodical" ones?


----------



## BonMallari

Howard N said:


> Just a pure guess Scott.
> 
> I think it's Vicky's code for an OK blind the dog took the casts and did what he was supposed to do. But nothing special.
> 
> Wonder if they'll drop some of the "methodical" ones?



then what is the code for "workmanlike" and "nice"


----------



## zipmarc

scott spalding said:


> What is a methodical blind.


According to Hoyle, as Mr. Carr would have said.


----------



## Lpgar

Wonderful blind they set up....wish I could run that one


----------



## FOM

Callbacks: 15, 20, 31, 40, 42, 47, 49, 51, 53, 54, 58, 60, 70, 71, 72, 84, 85, 88 (18 total)

Dogs dropped: 7, 28,32, 36, 38, 74, 78 (7 total)


----------



## BonMallari

Howard N said:


> Wonder if they'll drop some of the "methodical" ones?



looks like they just did...

apparently Charli and Molly did well and got dropped too, was really pulling for Mr Rawlins


----------



## scott spalding

Not likely they dropped a dog that was doing well.


----------



## FOM

scott spalding said:


> Not likely they dropped a dog that was doing well.


Bingo - it is cumulative work! Let's not start second guessing the judge's decisions or nit pick the reporting by trying to take everything literally. We aren't there, we haven't watched every dog on every bird!!!

FOM


----------



## 2tall

Lpgar said:


> Wonderful blind they set up....wish I could run that one


Just what I was thinking! I sure could go for some water work, kinda scarce around here.


----------



## CMRR&GC

To stir the pot anyone have a color breakdown of who's left.....any chocs left.....how many yellows?


----------



## Wayne Beck

Go pink!!!!!!


----------



## Brad Turner

CMRR&GC said:


> To stir the pot anyone have a color breakdown of who's left.....any chocs left.....how many yellows?


I know there is at least one black one left.


----------



## pam ingham

getting down to the real nitty gritty - time for some good anecdotes about the remaining dogs - for instance - the wonderful Ms Tia - as a young dog underwent surgery and had part of a lung removed - sat out quite a while and has come back like the champion she is-- she is an inspiration and again proof of what stuff these wonderful animals are made...

anyone? especially for me the dogs out of our area with which I am not too familiar - I don't want to wait 'till the news comes out with the stories of only the finalists- these are all great dogs and I'm sure there are great stories about all of them so time to share please?


----------



## BonMallari

CMRR&GC said:


> To stir the pot anyone have a color breakdown of who's left.....any chocs left.....how many yellows?



one of the test dogs is yellow.....

of the 18 left, FIVE have handled in a previous series


----------



## Dan Wegner

BonMallari said:


> ...of the 18 left, FIVE have handled in a previous series


Is it possible that a quick clean handle in the area of the fall could be viewed by the judges as a better job than another dog that didn't handle, may have had a wide ranging hunt, but still picked up the birds?


----------



## Ron in Portland

FOM said:


> Callbacks: 15, 20, 31, 40, 42, 47, 49, 51, 53, 54, 58, 60, 70, 71, 72, 84, 85, 88 (18 total)
> 
> Dogs dropped: 7, 28,32, 36, 38, 74 (7 total)


What about Merlyn? Your list doesn't include him as dropped, but the listing has him grayed out and listed as out in the 8th?

Thanks,


----------



## FOM

Ron,

Sorry 78 is out...list updated.


----------



## Cowtown

FOM said:


> So do people like the stats that Ann Heise and I (mostly Ann) have put up on the Summary thread? Is this something we would like to carry over with the future Nationals and summary threads? Or is it a waste of brain cell activity?


I love em and GREATLY appreciate the hard work and wonderful info!

I'd kill to be there but this is the next best thing!


----------



## FOM

#47 - handle


----------



## Rainmaker

Love the stats, Lainee & Ann, thanks so much for all the work.


----------



## FOM

Handle for dog 51


----------



## FOM

Handle for dog #53


----------



## Brad Turner

Does anybody know why Ali was skipped? They went from 53 to 60 on the blog.


----------



## Laura McCaw

CMRR&GC said:


> To stir the pot anyone have a color breakdown of who's left.....any chocs left.....how many yellows?


Nope a chocolate got dropped in the 4th series... the only chocolate that I know of however the only 2 dogs that I do not know the colors of is #40 and #64.

Of the ones that I do know out of the 90 dogs entered 6 of those were yellow and they have all been dropped except for 1 who is still in the running in the 9th series, that would be dog #85. 

Like I said though I do not know the colors of 40 and 64 however 64 is dropped but 40 is still running.


----------



## 3blackdogs

Brad Turner said:


> Does anybody know why Ali was skipped? They went from 53 to 60 on the blog.


Alan Pleasant has more than one dog to run. I'm just guessing that they bumped him up (#60) to give him more time between running dogs. This is particularly helpful if there is a sizable hike between the parking area and the holding blinds. Efficient and effective marshalling.


----------



## stonybrook

Go Tyson! What a year he has had.


----------



## BonMallari

Laura McCaw said:


> Nope a chocolate got dropped in the 4th series... the only chocolate that I know of however the only 2 dogs that I do not know the colors of is #40 and #64.
> 
> Of the ones that I do know out of the 90 dogs entered 6 of those were yellow and they have all been dropped except for 1 who is still in the running in the 9th series, that would be dog #85.
> 
> *Like I said though I do not know the colors of 40 and 64 however 64 is dropped but 40 is still running*.


# 40 is a black female lab


----------



## Laura McCaw

BonMallari said:


> # 40 is a black female lab


Thanks for that.  I was thinking the odds were going to be black, but didn't want to put a color on a dog that I was unsure of. Do you know about 64?


----------



## HarryWilliams

Special kudos to those that still have multiple dogs in contention. HPW


----------



## FOM

Handle for dog 58


----------



## zipmarc

FOM said:


> Handle for dog 58


Aargh. That's Beitler's Tiny. Clean up to this point.


----------



## Mark Sehon

Ali clean going to the 10th.


----------



## Bayou Magic

Piper clean going to the 10th!


----------



## Old School Labs

ALI !! ALI !! ALI !! ALI !!, Go man go, your daughter is cheering for you.


----------



## kjrice

Bayou Magic said:


> Piper clean going to the 10th!


Outstanding to Piper and Mark! She really had a great pre-National at Mead Ranch.


----------



## BonMallari

NFC Willie is clean (no handles) but its hard to understand exactly how his work was on the 9th....


----------



## Fred Warf

* Eight Dogs Have Handles Coming Into This Test... *


... and four of those now have handled on this test. 
_ posted by Retriever News Team @  12:33 PM

I only show 5 with handles - 15, 20, 40, 53, 88 - I'm missing 3 who ?? please advise 
_


----------



## FOM

There are "8 handles" - 5 prior coming into the series, plus 4 more for the series, but only 8 dogs have handled with one dog having 2 handles....(this is up through dog #72)

I have 6 "clean"

Vickie corrected her blog


----------



## JeffLusk

FOM said:


> There are "8 handles" - 4 prior coming into the series, plus 4 more for the series, but only 7 dogs have handled with one dog having 2 handles....(this is up through dog #72)
> 
> I have 6 "clean"
> 
> Vickie corrected her blog


71 is clean and "nicely" go Emmitt!!


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> NFC Willie is clean (no handles) but its hard to understand exactly how his work was on the 9th....


He may be the sleeper... one of those "according to Hoyle" consistent types.


----------



## scott spalding

Bet theres not many with handles after this serise.


----------



## FOM

#84 handled...


----------



## zipmarc

FOM said:


> #84 handled...


Oh no. There goes Reagan - but, it's fantastic she got this far!


----------



## rolando_cornelio

JeffLusk said:


> 71 is clean and "nicely" go Emmitt!!


BRING IT HOME GONIA AND EMMITT


----------



## BonMallari

scott spalding said:


> Bet theres not many with handles after this series.





FOM said:


> #84 handled...


shucks : had Reagan and Michael on my Pick em..SHE (I referred to her as a he earlier) is having a good National

the judges are going to have to scramble and decide if a handle this late in the trial is worse than a handle earlier....kinda like the NCAA football season, better to lose early than lose late....


----------



## FOM

Anyone else having a hard time focusing at work?? <sigh>


----------



## Dan Wegner

Sounds like Pink #88 just did a great job on the 9th, despite a quick handle in the 5th series. So hard to tell from the quick descriptions on the blog, but it's awesome to have SOMETHING to go on and so quickly!!!


----------



## BonMallari

with only a few dogs left is there any chance they start a 10th series while they have light and weather


----------



## scott spalding

It's the super bowl of dog events gota love it.


----------



## FOM

Dog 85 is a pick up


----------



## scott spalding

BonMallari said:


> with only a few dogs left is there any chance they start a 10th series while they have light and weather


My guess is they will start in the morning they will have plenty of time.


----------



## Guest

Ozzie handle pick up all my picks on EE are gone


----------



## helencalif

JeffLusk said:


> 71 is clean and "nicely" go Emmitt!!


Keep an eye on Emmitt ! Clean going into the 10th. 

Helen


----------



## helencalif

BonMallari said:


> with only a few dogs left is there any chance they start a 10th series while they have light and weather


Doubtful they will start the 1oth today. I think the test dogs and their handlers were released for the day. I know of one test dog and her handler who has left the grounds.

Besides that, I think there is a ceremony planned going into the 10th. Then the tests, then decision making for the winner, set up for the grand finale closing ceremony. They will want to do all of this tomorrow. 

They are getting answers on the 9th. Cloudy, but no rain so far. 

Helen


----------



## rolando_cornelio

helencalif said:


> Keep an eye on Emmitt ! Clean going into the 10th.
> 
> Helen


im guessing hes the youngest left in the field !! what a stud!

01/21/2008 DOB


----------



## Guest

helencalif said:


> Doubtful they will start the 1oth today. I think the test dogs and their handlers were released for the day. I know of one test dog and her handler who has left the grounds.
> 
> Besides that, I think there is a ceremony planned going into the 10th. Then the tests, then decision making for the winner, set up for the grand finale closing ceremony. They will want to do all of this tomorrow.
> 
> They are getting answers on the 9th. Cloudy, but no rain so far.
> 
> Helen


Helen,

Have you heard if it will be back at the ranch tomorrow?


----------



## helencalif

Melanie Foster said:


> Helen,
> 
> Have you heard if it will be back at the ranch tomorrow?


Just talked to Don. He did not say where it will be. Often they tell the test dog handlers at the end of the day where the next series will be. What it is going to be is kept a secret. 

You know there is going to be a ceremony and some pomp and circumstance before the 10th starts. Hope there is no rain on their parade.

Helen


----------



## dadams

looked at the retriever news call backs and states #88 pink had handle and pickup but blog says great run... Typo? I hope


----------



## FOM

Melanie Foster said:


> Helen,
> 
> Have you heard if it will be back at the ranch tomorrow?


From the Blog:



> It will be somewhere on the Boatright-Goodrich Ranch.
> 
> Test dogs will commence at 8:45 a.m. with the test to follow.


----------



## FOM

dadams said:


> looked at the retriever news call backs and states #88 pink had handle and pickup but blog says great run... Typo? I hope


It's a typo, dog 85 picked up...


----------



## zipmarc

Wind is up with slight chance of rain Saturday. Only the trophies will mind that...


----------



## FOM

Dog 42 handled....and now we wait for callbacks...


----------



## scott spalding

Any guess how many I say 10 finalists.


----------



## Franco

It's gonna be a Rumble In The Pasture, a Thrilla in Oakdale!;-)

Ali ! Ali ! Ali!


----------



## BonMallari

scott spalding said:


> Any guess how many I say 10 finalists.


I will guess the number at 12 but half of those will have a handle


----------



## zipmarc

dadams said:


> looked at the retriever news call backs and states #88 pink had handle and pickup but blog says great run... Typo? I hope


Didn't catch that on the Blog...


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

Eh, I hope Tia gets to be a finalist. We will see though. I'd take Ali as the heavy favorite to win IMO.


----------



## DenverB2B

From what I see, there are 9 dogs with no handles. If there are no typos. So I say that is what the number of finalist will be. Just a guess.


----------



## FOM

DenverB2B said:


> From what I see, there are 9 dogs with no handles. If there are no typos. So I say that is what the number of finalist will be. Just a guess.


But if a dog did the 9th series nicely who had a handle prior, why all of a sudden would that handle not be carried? There could easily be dogs with handles going to the 10th.

And for that matter a "clean" dog could easily be dropped, we have not seen the dogs work first hand.


----------



## DenverB2B

Just sayin. Not one of the judges. I have no issues with a handle going to the tenth.


----------



## BonMallari

I only count 7 dogs with no handles

Pete
Willie
Ali
Tyson
Piper
Emmitt
Diesel


----------



## DenverB2B

I am just going off the callback list and they have them updated thru the 9th and I still count 9 dogs with no handles.


----------



## FOM

DenverB2B said:


> I am just going off the callback list and they have them updated thru the 9th and I still count 9 dogs with no handles.


I'd recommend: http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=77474


----------



## 3blackdogs

DenverB2B said:


> From what I see, there are 9 dogs with no handles. If there are no typos. So I say that is what the number of finalist will be. Just a guess.


There are 7 dogs with no handles. If you were going by the callback chart on the RetrieverNews site, they had not yet updated Tia as a handle or Ozzie as a pickup. It's all in the blog and in Lainee's chart on this forum. 

There are also dogs with no handles that have some pretty significant hunts, per Lainees point. 

As has been said before, it's cumulative performance, although I tend to lean towards the theory that an early handle followed by a set of very stellar performances is more easily forgotten than a recent handle. 

And of course, there are handles and then there are HANDLES (over....Over....OVER!!!) 

It's going to be interesting regardless.....


----------



## FOM

Callbacks: 15, 20, 31, 49, 51, 54, 58, 70, 71, 72, 84, 88 (12 total)

Dogs dropped: 40, 42, 47, 53, 60, 85 (6 total)


----------



## Dan Wegner

FOM said:


> Callbacks: 15, 20, 31, 49, 51, 54, 58, 70, 71, 72, 84, 88 (12 total)
> 
> Dogs dropped: 40, 42, 47, 53, 60, 85 (6 total)


Woo Hoo!!! Congrats to all. Go get'em PINK!!!


----------



## kjrice

rolando_cornelio said:


> BRING IT HOME GONIA AND EMMITT


Big congrats to Dick and Cynthia!


----------



## bjoiner

Congratulations to all. Way to go Moses. Wayne Curtis and Bill Landau are having a good run lately with a qualifying win in Mobile two weeks ago and a finalist now. Not bad for a four year old. Hope to see him here a lot.


----------



## FOM

Since I believe we can jinx dogs - technically a dog is not a finalist just because they got called back to the 10th. they still need to pick up all the chickens and not commit any unforgivable sins like switching or breaking...

Just saying...


----------



## zipmarc

FOM said:


> Callbacks: 15, 20, 31, 49, 51, 54, 58, 70, 71, 72, 84, 88 (12 total)
> 
> Dogs dropped: 40, 42, 47, 53, 60, 85 (6 total)


There, I guessed 12, didn't I ;-) ?


----------



## Jay Dufour

Ali's little brother Buster says "Bare down on em brohammy "


----------



## kjrice

FOM said:


> Since I believe we can jinx dogs - technically a dog is not a finalist just because they got called back to the 10th. they still need to pick up all the chickens and not commit any unforgivable sins like switching or breaking...
> 
> Just saying...


Spoil sport!


----------



## Bayou Magic

The callbacks show #70 Piper as dropped in the 9th. Say it ain't so...

fp


----------



## lablover

kjrice said:


> Spoil sport!


No, FOM is exactly right!


----------



## Mike W.

> Ali's little brother Buster says "Bare down on em brohammy "



It's pronounced _"brougham"_


----------



## FOM

Bayou Magic said:


> The callbacks show #70 Piper as dropped in the 9th. Say it ain't so...
> 
> fp


Seriously dude look at the summary list on RTF!!! The callbacks are a cheap imitation of the RTF Summary!


----------



## kjrice

lablover said:


> No, FOM is exactly right!


No kidding.


----------



## zipmarc

Bayou Magic said:


> The callbacks show #70 Piper as dropped in the 9th. Say it ain't so...
> 
> fp


I think 70 is back. 

* Friday, November 18, 20113:01 p.m.
**Callbacks *
15, 20, 31, 49, 51, 54, 58, 70, 71, 72, 84, 88


----------



## Dave S

Piper is back to the 10th


----------



## bakbay

Bayou Magic said:


> The callbacks show #70 Piper as dropped in the 9th. Say it ain't so...
> 
> fp


Neither 60 nor 70 were shown with a handle. The blog has 60 dropped and 70 back while the callbacks show 60 back and 70 dropped.

Wonder which, if either, is correct??


----------



## FOM

Okay 70 is back, I'm positive Becky Edwards would know first hand!


----------



## Jay Dufour

I saw that too ...but Vickie entered how well Piper did......I got it from Becky on facebook.


----------



## zipmarc

bakbay said:


> Neither 60 nor 70 were shown with a handle. The blog has 60 dropped and 70 back while the callbacks show 60 back and 70 dropped.
> 
> Wonder which, if either, is correct??


Callbacks show the same as the blog with 60 dropped and 70 back.


----------



## Bayou Magic

FOM said:


> Seriously dude look at the summary list on RTF!!! The callbacks are a cheap imitation of the RTF Summary!


It's things like this that put old folks in the ground early. 

Thanks,
fp


----------



## scott spalding

Bayou Magic said:


> It's things like this that put old folks in the ground early.
> 
> Thanks,
> fp


Get em piper!


----------



## Mike W.

Go Mark Edwards & PIPER !!!


----------



## frontier

Bayou Magic said:


> It's things like this that put old folks in the ground early.
> 
> Thanks,
> fp


...And that add a few more gray hairs to Frank's head. Good luck to Mark and Piper.


----------



## DaveHare

Go Mark Smith And Ali , Go WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats Bobby Lane On Going The Distance.Good Luck To All 3 Of You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dave Hare


----------



## Howard N

frontier said:


> ...And that add a few more gray hairs to Frank's head. Good luck to Mark and Piper.


Or removed them.


----------



## BonMallari

of the 12 dogs left, how many are being handled by an amateur or owner


----------



## JusticeDog

BonMallari said:


> of the 12 dogs left, how many are being handled by an amateur or owner


Two- both lab females: Fizz and Regan.


----------



## Judy Chute

JusticeDog said:


> Two- both lab females: Fizz and Regan.


Go Judy ..and "Fizz"


----------



## zipmarc

JusticeDog said:


> Two- both lab females: Fizz and Regan.


Reagan (Citori Vista's 40th President) is trained by Bill Sargenti though.


----------



## dogcommand

"Reagan (Citori Vista's 40th President) is trained by Bill Sargenti though." And your point is??? 

(by the way, Fizz is in training with Karl Gunzer for a good part of the year.)


----------



## JusticeDog

dogcommand said:


> "Reagan (Citori Vista's 40th President) is trained by Bill Sargenti though." And your point is???


I think the point was obvious. But my understanding is that Michael Moore does most of the training and has put the majority of points on their dogs. When he caddies, Billy runs the dog. It certainly takes nothing away from this nice dog for a pro to touch her. Fizz either. She spends time with karl, but a great deal of time with Judy. Both Reagan and Fizz are quite the team with their owners. Best of luck to both of them.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

Susan,
What is the weather today? Which direction is the line facing? What time do the festivities start?? Ann


----------



## Cowtown

HiRollerlabs said:


> Susan,
> What is the weather today? Which direction is the line facing? What time do the festivities start?? Ann


Don't know about the wind but from the blog:

ANTICIPATION!

It's quite a novelty to have just one test scheduled for the final day of competition, but more particularly, to have a "leisurely" start time... yet it's quite hectic and that's to be expected...

The day is beautiful with a bright sun accompanied by a few wispy white clouds... our weather has been phenomenal all week and promises to provide the final touch to this day.

Good luck to all contestants still remaining in this 2011 National Championship!


----------



## zipmarc

HiRollerlabs said:


> Susan,
> What is the weather today? Which direction is the line facing? What time do the festivities start?? Ann



At the moment it's 47°, with a high predicted for 53. Some fog, light wind up to 10 mph from the West.


----------



## zipmarc

<<Originally Posted by *dogcommand* "Reagan (Citori Vista's 40th President) is trained by Bill Sargenti though." And your point is???>>


JusticeDog said:


> I think the point was obvious. But my understanding is that Michael Moore does most of the training and has put the majority of points on their dogs. When he caddies, Billy runs the dog. It certainly takes nothing away from this nice dog for a pro to touch her. Fizz either. She spends time with karl, but a great deal of time with Judy. Both Reagan and Fizz are quite the team with their owners. Best of luck to both of them.


How many years since a dog is in the Open National which is trained completely by an Amateur and lasts until the 10th? And I don't mean Ruby - she's just a test dog. (JUST )

Edit: To be absolutely clear, my point has nothing to do with the quality of the dog. My point is about the state of the sport of retriever field trialing, which has developed (some say advanced) to a level of competitiveness wherein no matter how talented the natural dog may be, the chance to be successful at this level of competition is nil without some Pro involvement.
-----------
Mimi
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds dicuss events; small minds discuss people."~Anon


----------



## Breck

zipmarc said:


> <<Originally Posted by *dogcommand* "Reagan (Citori Vista's 40th President) is trained by Bill Sargenti though." And your point is???>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many years since a dog is in the Open National which is trained completely by an Amateur and lasts until the 10th? And I don't mean Ruby - she's just a test dog. (JUST )


Um? Several I think.
'01 National Finalist Randy Bohn and Chili
'05 National Finalist Connie and Ezra 
'06 National Finalist Barb Younglove
Does Charlie Hines count?
Did Bob Kennon do it or wast that a Nat Am?


----------



## zipmarc

Second test dog to the line - the fun has begun!


----------



## helencalif

Please describe the test for the 10th.


----------



## Cowtown

helencalif said:


> Please describe the test for the 10th.


According to the blog:

Last Test is a Land Quad

With three stand up guns and one retired bird... More soon


----------



## Rick_C

Pro trained at some point or not, I think it's very, very cool that some owners are running their own dogs in the National Open against all the pro's. Extra kudo's to them.

Congratulations to everyone that qualified and good luck to those getting ready to start the 10th. Wish I could be there to watch.


----------



## zipmarc

helencalif said:


> Please describe the test for the 10th.


From Retriever Report: 
We are siting on top of a very high hill. It's currently 47 degrees with an expected high of 57 degrees with partly sunny conditions. There is a flurry of activity as the traffic committee parks all the remaining trucks for the contestants, spectators and workers. The Finalists will arrive in a procession. The Honor Guard has arrived and is walking through their procedure for the morning's ceremony.

The 10th Series is a Land Quad. The mat is on top of the hill facing east. The test is set in what appears to be a large bowl. The order is left to right, around the horn. Bird #1, at 125 yards on the left, is a retired, dead hen mallard station. This bird is thrown to the left, up a hill. Bird #2, at 225 yards, is a rooster pheasant flyer station. This bird is shot to the left and is behind and just right of the retired hen mallard station. Bird #3, at 250 yards, is in front of the mat on the far side of the test. This is a hen mallard flyer shot to the right. Bird #4, at 160 yards, is to the handlers right. This is a rooster pheasant flyer station and it is shot to the left towards the hen mallard flyer.

Both test dogs completed the test in approximately 12 minutes per dog. The judges have made a few changes on where the birds are to land they appear to be satisfied with their test and have called for the first running dog at 9:48 am PT. Test photo and sketch to come...

And you can watch Don run Ruby in this video http://youtu.be/NJlxvTumPRs:


----------



## zipmarc

Rick_C said:


> Pro trained at some point or not, I think it's very, very cool that some owners are running their own dogs in the National Open against all the pro's. Extra kudo's to them.
> 
> Congratulations to everyone that qualified and good luck to those getting ready to start the 10th. Wish I could be there to watch.


There was never any implication that it's not cool for an owner handler to be participating at the National Open level.

The defensive responses I've read only demonstrate even more acutely the state of the sport, which is dominated by Pros, such that several people felt they had to leap in to defend the amateur for being at this high level of competition.

I think an adjustment in our fundamental paradigm is long overdue - it should be taken for granted that any amateur who made it to the 10th in a National Open, even a National Amateur, has achieved.


----------



## Rick_C

zipmarc said:


> There was never any implication that it's not cool for an owner handler to be participating at the National Open level.
> 
> The defensive responses I've read only demonstrate even more acutely the state of the sport, which is dominated by Pros, such that several people felt they had to leap in to defend the amateur for being at this high level of competition.
> 
> I think an adjustment in our fundamental paradigm is long overdue - it should be taken for granted that any amateur who made it to the 10th in a National Open, even a National Amateur, has achieved.


I agree with you and I didn't intend to be _defensive_ of the amateurs or imply that anyone said or thinks it isn't cool that amateurs are running their own dogs. I was merely stating that, given what you said about the sport, and especially the National Open (as well as weekend trials) being dominated by pro's, I give kudo's to those that are able and willing to go up against the best of the best of the pro's on such a big stage. Let alone make it to the 10th series in doing so.

Not a political statement by me at all, just a pat on the back for a job well done.


----------



## FOM

72 picked up his birds, 88 handled

No birds for 71 & 84


----------



## helencalif

zipmarc said:


> I think an adjustment in our fundamental paradigm is long overdue - it should be taken for granted that any amateur who made it to the 10th in a National Open, even a National Amateur, has achieved.


I agree with you Mimi.

A reminder to all: in order to qualify for the National Open, you must have an Open win. If you are an amateur trainer-handler, getting the Open WIN is really hard to do especially if you live in a region where the field trials in which you run the Open stakes are dominated by a number of pros who have more than one excellent FC on their truck.

Look at the list of this year's National qualifiers. How many were run by their pro trainers? The majority of them.

How many were run by their amateur owners? Few of them. 

Statistically speaking, it seems to me that pros dominate the Open WIN at weekend trials; thus, the pros qualify more dogs for the National Open and almost all of the dogs who run the National Open are handled by their pros. 

Few, very very few true amateur trained dogs qualify and are handled in the National Open by their amateur-owners. 

Thankfully, there is a National Amateur where the dog had to be handled at weekend trials in the Amateur stake to qualify and that after qualifying for the National Amateur, the dog's handler at that National has to be an amateur.

Please don't misunderstand this post. I am not anti-pro. I am making an observation about pro domination of the National Open (no news there) ... and I am saying that any amateur who has gotten his dog QUALIFIED for the National Open has achieved a major goal and gives hope to all amateurs to reach this level. 


Helen


----------



## FOM

15 is in the club house, 20 is also with a handle


----------



## BonMallari

Breck said:


> Um? Several I think.
> '01 National Finalist Randy Bohn and Chili
> '05 National Finalist Connie and Ezra
> '06 National Finalist Barb Younglove
> Does Charlie Hines count?
> *Did Bob Kennon do it or wast that a Nat Am?*


Bob Kennon won the '78 National with NFC AFC Shadow of Otter Creek


----------



## dogcommand

" Both Reagan and Fizz are quite the team with their owners." I couldn't agree more, both Judy and Mike work very hard at the game and have done well. Cudos to both of them. I don't know Reagan personally but do know Fizz and she is a real sweatheart and a heck of a working dog.


----------



## FOM

71 is in the club house


----------



## JusticeDog

zipmarc said:


> There was never any implication that it's not cool for an owner handler to be participating at the National Open level.
> 
> The defensive responses I've read only demonstrate even more acutely the state of the sport, which is dominated by Pros, such that several people felt they had to leap in to defend the amateur for being at this high level of competition.
> 
> I think an adjustment in our fundamental paradigm is long overdue - it should be taken for granted that any amateur who made it to the 10th in a National Open, even a National Amateur, has achieved.


Thank you for clarifying your position. The manner in which the first post was taken was that less credit was due to the amatuer running their dog because of pro involvement. It didn't have anything to do with "cool" or "uncool". Even with pro involvement whether it's a lot or a little, many just do not understand the sacrifice, time and committment it takes on the owner's and/or handler's part to get a dog to this level.


----------



## Don

Emmit just had a good job!!!! Could there be a party in McKenna?


----------



## HarryWilliams

The party will be in Oakdale. The question is who is paying the tab. I'm sure Cynthia would love to foot the bill. HPW


----------



## FOM

Dog 31 is in the club house


----------



## rolando_cornelio

Don said:


> Emmit just had a good job!!!! Could there be a party in McKenna?


Congrats to Cynthia and dick! There should be a party no matter what happens! Very talent youngster!


----------



## HiRollerlabs

Go Pete Zylla, #31!

Pete's owner, Bob, is such a neat and humble guy! If you met him, you'd like him! And, Pete is a very neat dog. He and Bob walk to the line, amazingly calm. What a team--Pete/Steve Yozamp, and Pete/Bob.


----------



## zipmarc

84 Reagan's flyer fell behind the guns, it's a short bird.


----------



## helencalif

rolando_cornelio said:


> Congrats to Cynthia and dick! There should be a party no matter what happens! Very talent youngster!


Hubby will be at that party if it is held in Oakdale. Congrats to a young dog for being a clean Finalist.

Helen


----------



## FOM

84 is in the club house

No bird for 49


----------



## JeffLusk

rolando_cornelio said:


> Congrats to Cynthia and dick! There should be a party no matter what happens! Very talent youngster!


I agree!! Cynthia you deserve this!!! I wonder if Frank wishes he still owned him..


----------



## zipmarc

Gunners are nervous - 3 no birds already. They've been great as usual though.


----------



## FOM

51 handled and in the club house


----------



## FOM

54 is in the club house


----------



## EdA

Ali Ali Ali!!!!!


----------



## FOM

58 is in the clubhouse


----------



## FOM

70 handled...And is in the clubhouse


----------



## BonMallari

so it comes down to NFC Willie as the last dog to run ?


----------



## HarryWilliams

When's the last time there was an 11th? HPW


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> so it comes down to NFC Willie as the last dog to run ?


Yeah, he had a no-bird.


----------



## Charles C.

Just by looking at what has transpired, it looks like they have a clear winner.


----------



## zipmarc

Who's the winner?


----------



## FOM

Handle for 49


----------



## Laura McCaw

It would be neat if #71 who is only 3 yrs I believe to be the winner.  Although my last pick'em standing was Willie but he just got a handle. The girls were great also. Can't wait to see who will hold the new title.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

4 Dogs that did not handle in the 10th:

Pete
Ali
Emmit
Diesel

Hmmm...who will be a new NFC?

Congratulations to all Qualifiers and to all Finalists!


----------



## zipmarc

#71 Emmitt's looking good - now that Willie #49 has had a handle:-x.


----------



## zipmarc

#54 Ali had a great job in the 10th - that would carry a lot of weight.


----------



## 3blackdogs

HiRollerlabs said:


> 4 Dogs that did not handle in the 10th:
> 
> Pete
> Ali
> Emmit
> Diesel
> 
> Hmmm...who will be a new NFC?
> 
> Congratulations to all Finalists!



(Tiny, Moses and Reagan didn't handle in the 10th either, but they all had H's in a previous series.)


----------



## zipmarc

When the judges finish shuffling and reviewing all the papers and their squiggles and coded comments and refresh their memories about the dogs' work throughout the week, they will come up with the winner.


----------



## helencalif

HiRollerlabs said:


> 4 Dogs that did not handle in the 10th:
> 
> Pete
> Ali
> Emmit
> Diesel
> 
> Hmmm...who will be a new NFC?


Now it should come down to the judges looking at the dogs page by page to compare series by series to determine overall performance -- with some series perhaps having more weight than others. 

Unless you have watched all the dogs run like the judges do, it's folly to pick a winner from the gallery let alone from the computer. 

There are 4 finalists who are clean, but you can't pick a winner based on that. Some, while not having handles, have had big hunts while others have not. Some had better water blinds, etc etc. 

Let's raise our glasses to all who qualified for the National Open and especially to those who have survived it! 

Helen


----------



## zipmarc

helencalif said:


> Let's raise our glasses to all who qualified for the National Open and especially to those who have survived it!
> Helen


I'll drink to that! Any dog-handler team that makes it to the 10th is a winner in my books.

Lainee keeps talking about their being in the club house after they've run. I hope that club house is more fun than being sent to the dog house. A drink for the handler and a bone for the dog.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

zipmarc said:


> When the judges finish shuffling and reviewing all the papers and their squiggles and coded comments and refresh their memories about the dogs' work throughout the week, they will come up with the winner.


Do you think the judges had their crib notes ready for each dog's work when they started the day? And, that the pause prior to the announcement is to add suspense to the moment!


----------



## zipmarc

HiRollerlabs said:


> Do you think the judges had their crib notes ready for each dog's work when they started the day? And, that the pause prior to the announcement is to add suspense to the moment!


I bet they did! And I bet they will play up to whatever's needed, to add to the suspense.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

zipmarc said:


> Who's the winner?


I have no reason to believe it's not Ali.


----------



## Don

Are you their?


----------



## zipmarc

zipmarc; said:


> Who's the winner?





Jacob Hawkes said:


> I have no reason to believe it's not Ali.


Just a minute, now...I'll let you know in just a minute, for sure who it is...


----------



## bjoiner

Emmit is the winner.


----------



## Don

NFC Emmit, Way to go Jimmy


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

Dog # 71, Emmit won


----------



## JeffLusk

NFC Emmitt!!!!!! Congrats Cynthia and Dick Tallman!! And Jim and Jackie Gonia!!!!! Great trial and a young stud!!!!!


----------



## zipmarc

It's Emmitt! Way to go!


----------



## rolando_cornelio

Wow. Just wow!


----------



## JusticeDog

zipmarc said:


> It's Emmitt! Way to go!


This was my pick all along... I had told the owners how special he is...


----------



## FOM

Congrats to 2011 NFC Watermark's Running Back and Jim Gonia!!!


----------



## HisLady

Congratulations, Jim and Jackie!!!!!! So happy for you guys!


----------



## dogcommand

Congratulations to the winner and to all the finalists. And a big thank you to Vickie Lamb for her fab blog...great work as usual Vickie. Also many thanks to Lanie for all of her hard work keeping track of everything.


----------



## Thomas Smith

JusticeDog said:


> This was my pick all along... I had told the owners how special he is...


You definitely called it to me! Wow! Sounds like a tremendous dog! Congrats Emmitt!


----------



## John Shoffner

Congratulations, Jim and Jackie and Emitt!! Way to go!


----------



## Annette

Huhge Congratulations NFC Emmet,Jimmy,Jackie and the owners of Emmet


----------



## BonMallari

Congrats to the Tallman's and the Gonia's

what is the breeding on Emmitt


----------



## Jeff Bartlett

Were The Big Dogs Are Built. Mckenna Kennels. Ya Baby .


----------



## zipmarc

And congrats to Mary Tatum! Emmitt was born on January 21, 2008, he's not even 4 year young yet!


----------



## JeffLusk

Also congrats extended to mark Madore for doing the young dog training!


----------



## Butch Chambers

Best coverage of any National ever!!


----------



## Jeff Bartlett

Were The Big Dogs Are Built. Mckenna Kennels. Ya Baby .


----------



## Jim Scarborough

BonMallari said:


> Congrats to the Tallman's and the Gonia's
> 
> what is the breeding on Emmitt



NAFC Carbon X Mardi Gras

Big congratulations to Mary Tatum.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

Jeff Bartlett said:


> Were The Big Dogs Are Built. Mckenna Kennels. Ya Baby .


Where is the word you're looking for.


----------



## zipmarc

Thanks to Vickie Lamb and the Retriever News Team for fantastic coverage of this National!


----------



## zipmarc

JeffLusk said:


> Also congrats extended to mark Madore for doing the young dog training!


Absolutely! Mark is not to be forgotten. We know, Jimmy has to pop back into the scene every X no. of years - so here he is again.


----------



## helencalif

For those who study dogs and their pedigrees... 

While I constantly remind folks to never forget the dam side... I have to think Carbon was well represented this week. 

We are thrilled that Emmitt won. Bring on the dancing girls. 

"NFC Watermark's Running Back" ... sounds good to me and will look darn good as a sire on any future pedigree. 

Helen


----------



## helencalif

zipmarc said:


> Absolutely! Mark is not to be forgotten. We know, Jimmy has to pop back into the scene every X no. of years - so here he is again.


Yep. Congrats to Mark for the young dog work and to Jimmy for the rest. And think of it, Emmitt was a Frank Kashevarof wash out.


----------



## zipmarc

helencalif said:


> Yep. Congrats to Mark for the young dog work and to Jimmy for the rest. And think of it, Emmitt was a Frank Kashevarof wash out.


Frank has washed out quite a few - now perhaps it will an honor to be on Frank's wash out list.


----------



## lablover

Congratulations to NFC Emmitt and Jim Gonia!

Jim did a little work on my dog some years ago.


----------



## Rick_C

Huge congrats to Jim Gonia, NFC Emmitt and his owners!!

Way to represent the NorthWest!!


----------



## 2tall

At last! A National winner that I have actually seen run! I saw Emmet run an open in Idaho last year. I was not able to stay and watch for too long that day, but I saw about 4 dogs run and Emmet was the only one to do it. I should have made him one of my "picks" but I was sure he was too young!!!!


----------



## jgrammer

Rick_C said:


> Huge congrats to Jim Gonia, NFC Emmitt and his owners!!
> 
> Way to represent the NorthWest!!


times 2!!!!


----------



## Jay Dufour

Thanks to Rita for the live feed to our training group on Ali's 10th series run.....It was very exciting.Congrats to Jim Gonia and all the Finalists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Sharon Potter

A huge congrats to Emmit and his connections....way to go!!!


----------



## Jeff Bartlett

helencalif said:


> Yep. Congrats to Mark for the young dog work and to Jimmy for the rest. And think of it, Emmitt was a Frank Kashevarof wash out.


Wash out ??;; u out of your


----------



## John Kelder

Congrats To The Starters ,finalists & The New Nfc.


----------



## Connie Swanson

Congratulations to Emmit et al. Quite an accomplishment!


[QUOTE/]
How many years since a dog is in the Open National which is trained completely by an Amateur and lasts until the 10th? And I don't mean Ruby - she's just a test dog. (JUST )

Edit: To be absolutely clear, my point has nothing to do with the quality of the dog. My point is about the state of the sport of retriever field trialing, which has developed (some say advanced) to a level of competitiveness wherein no matter how talented the natural dog may be, the chance to be successful at this level of competition is nil without some Pro involvement.[/QUOTE]

Last year-- 2010 National, Sledge has been completely trained & handled by me.

Mind you, Bill & I had just retired as pros when we got Sledge as a pup, so I guess that's cheating a little...

It is still a terrific achievement for any amateur to handle a dog to the 10th at the National, whether the dog is totally Am trained or not: I'm referring not to the dog & its abilities but to the fact that running a National is a whole different world for the handler, and the amateur just doesn't have the same experience as the pro to draw on, especially the Amateur who doesn't have a pro looking over their shoulder to help. It is very nice to see some Ams standing in that Final lineup!

(But the real point of the day: kudos to all who finished, and how about those youngsters!)

Connie


----------



## Bayou Magic

zipmarc said:


> Thanks to Vickie Lamb and the Retriever News Team for fantastic coverage of this National!


Great coverage. Thanks Vickie and everyone else who contributed to the best nationals coverage ever.

Big congrats to Emmitt and all involved in making him the 2011 NFC, and to the judges and all of the unnamed workers behind the scenes for putting on a great trial.

Thanks to Mark and Becky Edwards for believing in our little NutCase FC Wing Magic's Standpipe Moon "Piper" and making a hell of a run!

If my memory serves me correctly I sold majority interest in her to Brian Freeland a little before she turned 4 years old. Our plan was for her to go to a trainer who could nurture her in a steady routine. (My training routine is anything but steady.) Based on Piper's personality Mark Edwards was the obvious choice. They've proven to be a great team. Best of luck in the future.

fp


----------



## zipmarc

Connie Swanson said:


> Congratulations to Emmit et al. Quite an accomplishment!
> 
> 
> 
> zipmarc said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many years since a dog is in the Open National which is trained completely by an Amateur and lasts until the 10th? And I don't mean Ruby - she's just a test dog. (JUST )
> 
> Edit: To be absolutely clear, my point has nothing to do with the quality of the dog. My point is about the state of the sport of retriever field trialing, which has developed (some say advanced) to a level of competitiveness wherein no matter how talented the natural dog may be, the chance to be successful at this level of competition is nil without some Pro involvement.
> 
> 
> 
> Last year-- 2010 National, Sledge has been completely trained & handled by me.
> 
> Mind you, Bill & I had just retired as pros when we got Sledge as a pup, so I guess that's cheating a little...
> 
> It is still a terrific achievement for any amateur to handle a dog to the 10th at the National, whether the dog is totally Am trained or not: I'm referring not to the dog & its abilities but to the fact that running a National is a whole different world for the handler, and the amateur just doesn't have the same experience as the pro to draw on, especially the Amateur who doesn't have a pro looking over their shoulder to help. It is very nice to see some Ams standing in that Final lineup!
> 
> (But the real point of the day: kudos to all who finished, and how about those youngsters!)
> 
> Connie
Click to expand...

Agreed - most important right now, is *congrats* to all who made it to the 10th. What an achievement! The tests hadn't gotten any easier as the years went by, especially that first water blind.

Pros do have quite a few advantages - they are set up to train. They bring multiply dogs to the line, so they can "practice" the tests. 

And the National experience is, as you said, totally different - if nothing else, having to maintain excellence through 10 tests over a period of 7 consecutive days is a challenge in itself, both for the trainer tuning the dog's attitude, and for the dog, in the way of physical wear and tear.

But I think Amateurs can do it, without the Pros. I really do. Look at Ruby with Don Graves. Saber with Chris Hatch, Jack Vollstedt with various (sorry I'm only mentioning friends that I know - there surely are many others from elsewhere other than the West Coast). Amateurs just need to have the faith they can do it without the Pros - that's all!


----------



## Jeff Bartlett

Coverage folks none better!! Nice job


----------



## EdA

Historically amateurs have comprised about 1/3 of the competitors in the National Championship stake, this National Championship stake has had a historical low number for amateur handlers (+\- 10% of the field).

For the health of the sport this is troubling and no one seems to have noticed how few amateur handlers there were.


----------



## Jeff Bartlett

EdA said:


> Historically amateurs have comprised about 1/3 of the competitors in the National Championship stake, this National Championship stake has had a historical low number for amateur handlers (+\- 10% of the field).
> 
> For the health of the sport this is troubling and no one seems to have noticed how few amateur handlers there were.


Well us amatures need to be better


----------



## BonMallari

EdA said:


> Historically amateurs have comprised about 1/3 of the competitors in the National Championship stake, this National Championship stake has had a historical low number for amateur handlers (+\- 10% of the field).
> 
> *For the health of the sport this is troubling and no one seems to have noticed how few amateur handlers there were.*


its noticed by those like yourself that were in the sport when the Amateur dominated the FT game...unfortunately those days are long gone and may never return...who was the last Amateur to win the National Open...could it be the DuBose's or the Parrott's


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*My guess would be Ken Neil, Bon.

Congrats to all, great coverage Vicki!!! Thanks so much!!!

Aaron*


----------



## zipmarc

2006 Dr. Copper PhD - was he owner handled? I know he was Pro trained.


----------



## DeWitt Boice

who is the youngest dog to win a national and how does Emmitt stack up
I would look it up myself but I'm engrossed in the President's Cup right now
(or I'm just lazy)


----------



## Jeff Bartlett

EdA said:


> Historically amateurs have comprised about 1/3 of the competitors in the National Championship stake, this National Championship stake has had a historical low number for amateur handlers (+\- 10% of the field).
> 
> For the health of the sport this is troubling and no one seems to have noticed how few amateur handlers there were.


. Because us amature handlers need to step up our game. I have Judge and watch amatures handlers includingu me and we suck.


----------



## zipmarc

EdA said:


> Historically amateurs have comprised about 1/3 of the competitors in the National Championship stake, this National Championship stake has had a historical low number for amateur handlers (+\- 10% of the field).
> *
> For the health of the sport this is troubling and no one seems to have noticed how few amateur handlers there were.*


It is indeed very troubling - but the decline of amateur participation in deference to turning over the dog to the Pro has been going on for years, decades. To reverse the tide, or at least even up just a little bit, amateurs have to bite the bullet and make the time to do the work.


----------



## BonMallari

zipmarc said:


> It is indeed very troubling - but the decline of amateur participation in deference to turning over the dog to the Pro has been going on for years, decades. To reverse the tide, or at least even up just a little bit, amateurs have to bite the bullet and make the time to do the work.


Mimi, you too have seen the evolution of the game, up close and personal..its almost a mirror to our society, we are into instant gratification...there are relative newcomers to the game who can/have become instant National players literally overnight...they can go out and purchase the next derby list dog and be equal players to those that put the time in to train that dog from day 49 of the dog's life..hard to compete against those resources


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> Mimi, you too have seen the evolution of the game, up close and personal..its almost a mirror to our society, we are into instant gratification...there are relative newcomers to the game who can/have become instant National players literally overnight...they can go out and purchase the next derby list dog and be equal players to those that put the time in to train that dog from day 49 of the dog's life..hard to compete against those resources


They can and they have. Sometimes more than one - and they are even being trained by different Pros. It certainly would be a dream to have that kind of financial backing! But, I noticed their batting average hasn't improved with their acquisitions. 

As Rex Carr used to say, it all starts with desire. The dog has to have the desire, the handler also has to have the desire, the passion. The more desire, the more staying power. Ultimately, this is the force that empowers the individuals to change the direction of the sport. 

The big green monster is everywhere, but there are always those few who manage in spite of it.


----------



## JeffLusk

DeWitt Boice said:


> who is the youngest dog to win a national and how does Emmitt stack up
> I would look it up myself but I'm engrossed in the President's Cup right now
> (or I'm just lazy)


I would assume his half brother Chopper would be close to the youngest as well. Also ran by Jimmy.


----------



## zipmarc

DeWitt Boice said:


> who is the youngest dog to win a national and how does Emmitt stack up
> _ I would look it up myself but I'm engrossed in the President's Cup right now
> (or I'm just lazy)_





JeffLusk said:


> I would assume his half brother Chopper would be close to the youngest as well. Also ran by Jimmy.


It's got to be pretty close. Chopper won in 2005, and his birthday was 11/22/2001, so he was right at 4.

Emmitt's 4th birthday isn't until January 21, so he's about 2 months younger than his half brother Chopper, when he (Emmitt) won this year.


----------



## bjoiner

zipmarc said:


> 2006 Dr. Copper PhD - was he owner handled? I know he was Pro trained.


Wayne Dobson owned and handled copper.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

zipmarc said:


> 2006 Dr. Copper PhD - was he owner handled? I know he was Pro trained.


Copper was a "girl". That was an interesting Nat'l, held in St. Louis. It was nasty, cold, monsoon rain, day after day. We all had on as many clothes as we could trying to stay warm and dry.

The 1st/2nd series was a flyer and a land blind I think. Copper's blind wasn't down and Wayne handled her all over trying to find that bird.

The 5th series was a quad. Copper picked up a dead bird from one of the stations (it was her second or third retrieve). When Wayne sent her for another bird, she went back into the dead bird station where she'd just been and got another dead bird that was accidentally left in the area. If Wayne would have been able to get to his whistle, that was buried under all of his layers of clothing, he would have blown it as she was headed out. But, he didn't blow a whistle and she brought back a bird, had a rerun, and went on to win the National.

Lady Luck was with them!

On another note, how many dogs were entered at this Nat'l that are never run by Amateurs? NFC Willie is one.


----------



## Wade Thurman

EdA said:


> Historically amateurs have comprised about 1/3 of the competitors in the National Championship stake, this National Championship stake has had a historical low number for amateur handlers (+\- 10% of the field).
> 
> For the health of the sport this is troubling and no one seems to have noticed how few amateur handlers there were.


What's even more troubling Ed is when you look at the minor stakes and who is running the dogs there. 
Derby dogs should not be run by a Pro other than one exception and that is the owner is not present at the trial, PERIOD!!

Run your dog for god sake, where is the fun, the enjoyment watching your own dog run when you as an owner are on the sidelines.


----------



## zipmarc

HiRollerlabs said:


> Copper was a "girl". That was an interesting Nat'l, held in St. Louis. It was nasty, cold, monsoon rain, day after day. We all had on as many clothes as we could trying to stay warm and dry.
> 
> The 1st/2nd series was a flyer and a land blind I think. Copper's blind wasn't down and Wayne handled her all over trying to find that bird.
> 
> The 5th series was a quad. Copper picked up a dead bird from one of the stations (it was her second or third retrieve). When Wayne sent her for another bird, she went back into the dead bird station where she'd just been and got another dead bird that was accidentally left in the area. If Wayne would have been able to get to his whistle, that was buried under all of his layers of clothing, he would have blown it as she was headed out. But, he didn't blow a whistle and she brought back a bird, had a rerun, and went on to win the National.
> 
> Lady Luck was with them!
> 
> On another note, how many dogs were entered at this Nat'l that are never run by Amateurs? NFC Willie is one.


Ah, now I remember that particular National, thank you Ann! And the judges. And Wayne writing about his feeding her all this bacon to help her stay warm.

It was indeed an unusual/interesting National. But an Amateur did get up into the winning position - hasn't happened for years before that, and hasn't happened since.


----------



## junbe

For the record: The youngest NFC was run by Gonia. But it was Roy Gonia in 1948--it was NFC Brignall's ******. He was significantly younger than the second youngest--Lotti. Also, in 1955 the National Club published a summary of the first 15 years of the National. It reported 69% of the handlers were professionals. And they won 80% of the championships. 

Jack


----------



## HiRollerlabs

junbe said:


> For the record: The youngest NFC was run by Gonia. But it was Roy Gonia in 1948--it was NFC Brignall's ******. He was significantly younger than the second youngest--Lotti. Also, in 1955 the National Club published a summary of the first 15 years of the National. It reported 69% of the handlers were professionals. And they won 80% of the championships.
> 
> Jack


Oh Great One, how old was NFC Brignall's ******, and how old was Lotti when each earned the NFC title?

Another question, where was the 1986 National Amateur Retriever Championship held? Was it in Redding, CA? It was won by Cal Cadmus with FC NAFC Winsom Cargo.


----------



## BonMallari

NFC Brignall's ****** was 2 yrs 6months old

NFC AFC Lottie was 3yrs 4months old

source : Richard Halstead's book the Finalists

and I think someone answered the location of where Cal won his National, much earlier in the thread...I think they said Bend Oregon (confirmed by Dr Ed A)


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## junbe

The 1986 National Amateur Stake was held in Bend, Oregon, June 16-20. Winsom Cargo was the winner. Also some dates of the youngest NFC's--Bringall's ******, DOB: 5-10-1946, NFC date: 12-5-1948; Lotti, DOB: 7-7-1987, NFC date: 11-10-1990; Honcho, DOB: 1-23-1973, NFC date: 11-19-1976. You can actually figure out the number of days from this when they had their win. Hope this helps clear up any misconceptions.

Jack


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## 2tall

Aaron Homburg said:


> *My guess would be Ken Neil, Bon.
> 
> Congrats to all, great coverage Vicki!!! Thanks so much!!!
> 
> Aaron*



That is what I thought as well. I know that Windy was trained partly by a pro, but unless my memory has sagged as much as the rest of me, Ken Neil ran their winning National.

Personally, I think the games would have a brighter future if the pros job was to train the dogs and the owners and leave the trials to the Amateurs. If an owner does not want to learn enough to run his own dog, maybe he should just buy racehorses instead. At least there is chance of making money.


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## Jacob Hawkes

2tall said:


> Personally, I think the games would have a brighter future if the pros job was to train the dogs and the owners and leave the trials to the Amateurs. If an owner does not want to learn enough to run his own dog, maybe he should just buy racehorses instead. At least there is chance of making money.


That's just absurd. If this "Sport" really wants to get better it would start by being so damn hypocritical for starters. The *reality* is it takes all sorts of people for it to continue & grow. Some of the older crowd (Certainly not all.) will write about what's wrong with the sport &/or judging in RN, but turn around and do the same exact thing. How in the hell do you think you can get a "Younger crowd" when you're so full of yourself that nobody can even say "Hi" without getting a nose pointed to the sky in return? The fact of the matter is some people actually have to work & are not loaded. Now how would somebody possibly have a chance to have a good FT dog if they work crazy long hours & are gone all the time? Why yes, pay a pro to train your dog & train with them when you can. Of course that means the pro must also train the "Handler" too. That also means the pro must run said person's dog(s) in FTs when they're gone. Luckily I have a fabulous pro (Both professionally & as a person.) along with outstanding other "Ams" (Both as proven tract records as well as genuinely nice people.) that train with said pro(s). That's how I get to learn & the only way in this world I could possibly have a chance in FTs.


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## zipmarc

EdA said:


> Historically amateurs have comprised about 1/3 of the competitors in the National Championship stake, this National Championship stake has had a historical low number for amateur handlers (+\- 10% of the field).
> _ *For the health of the sport this is troubling and no one seems to have noticed how few amateur handlers there were.*_





Wade said:


> What's even more troubling Ed is when you look at the minor stakes and who is running the dogs there.
> Derby dogs should not be run by a Pro other than one exception and that is the owner is not present at the trial, PERIOD!!
> Run your dog for god sake, where is the fun, the enjoyment watching your own dog run when you as an owner are on the sidelines.


That's a really good point. Every body is chasing the Derby list, or qualifying for the National and just don't slow down enough to enjoy the training and the running of the dog, itself, as the prize. 

Even though I've ruined my left shoulder (can't raise that arm to cast anymore), I still train every day, have had to re-do my dogs' basics so they learn how to take my new left straight back cast (using my right arm ). And I run a business in addition to a livestock and crop ranch. So lack of time should never be anyone's excuse.

Maybe if we all re-point our noses away from the sky (as someone else just wrote) and learn to enjoy this sport for the training and for the running of our dogs, it will shift the direction of this sport. I won't say for the "better". Just saying, a change of direction... 

The Pros can make as much money training human handlers as they can just training the dogs - they won't lose any business. Maybe they can even make more money, because the human handlers haven't been hand picked like the dogs, nor have the human handlers been selectively bred for any talent. It'll take longer to train up a human than it will a dog. This should be a win-win situation for everyone!


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## Jay Dufour

I don't get it....I mean there is a National AM.


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## helencalif

Wade said:


> What's even more troubling Ed is when you look at the minor stakes and who is running the dogs there.
> Derby dogs should not be run by a Pro other than one exception and that is the owner is not present at the trial, PERIOD!!
> 
> Run your dog for god sake, where is the fun, the enjoyment watching your own dog run when you as an owner are on the sidelines.


Some comments about amateurs not running their own dog in the Q or the Derby ...

either the Q or the Derby start (and often finish) on Friday. The amateur who is a working stiff often can't miss work on a Friday to run their own dog.

About the Q, I have seen some Qs reported in Retriever News as Owner-Handler Qualifying stakes. I have never seen one on the west coast. The clubs would lose entry money if they held an Owner-Handler Q.

I have never heard of an Owner-Handler Derby stake. If a club held one, the entries would be so low that they probably couldn't get 10 entries for the Derby points. 

That's why pro run dogs are in the minor stakes. Clubs need the entries and owners often can't be there because they are run (by necessity) on Friday.

Helen


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## zipmarc

helencalif said:


> Some comments about amateurs not running their own dog in the Q or the Derby ...
> 
> either the Q or the Derby start (and often finish) on Friday. The amateur who is a working stiff often can't miss work on a Friday to run their own dog.
> 
> About the Q, I have seen some Qs reported in Retriever News as Owner-Handler Qualifying stakes. I have never seen one on the west coast. The clubs would lose entry money if they held an Owner-Handler Q.
> 
> I have never heard of an Owner-Handler Derby stake. If a club held one, the entries would be so low that they probably couldn't get 10 entries for the Derby points.
> 
> That's why pro run dogs are in the minor stakes. Clubs need the entries and owners often can't be there because they are run (by necessity) on Friday.
> 
> Helen


Absolutely, Helen, you are right! Always let the tail wag the dog. Never ever consider starting the minor stakes on a weekend. No owner should ever consider taking a day off work to run a stake on Friday, that is unthinkable. This attitude is why we are where we are. 

Rex said it has to do with the desire level. It also has to do with the setting of goals. What is the prize here. That's been discussed in an earlier post, no need to repeat.


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## Wayne Nutt

Just back from the deer camp and found out Jim and Emmitt won. Congratulations to Jim Gonia and Emmitt. I use to train with Jim years and years ago and knew Roy some but he was retired then. Again, Congrats Jim and Emmitt.


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## Rick_C

zipmarc said:


> Absolutely, Helen, you are right! Always let the tail wag the dog. Never ever consider starting the minor stakes on a weekend. No owner should ever consider taking a day off work to run a stake on Friday, that is unthinkable. This attitude is why we are where we are.
> 
> Rex said it has to do with the desire level. It also has to do with the setting of goals. What is the prize here. That's been discussed in an earlier post, no need to repeat.


What's the average number of trials a dog runs per year, 10, 12? How many people can take a dozen Fridays off work, not to mention travel time and expenses in order to do that?


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## helencalif

zipmarc said:


> Absolutely, Helen, you are right! Always let the tail wag the dog. Never ever consider starting the minor stakes on a weekend. No owner should ever consider taking a day off work to run a stake on Friday, that is unthinkable. This attitude is why we are where we are
> 
> Mimi,
> 
> I don't think it is an "attitude". I know you know what I am about to say, but for some others newer, I am going to say this:
> 
> Based upon my experience with clubs, what runs where and when depends on the land and water available for the trial, how many entries are anticipated for each stake based upon previous trials, and how many judges have been obtained for the trial. How many judges depends upon whether the club's trial historically has been "big" or "small".
> 
> Because the Open is usually the largest stake, it starts on Friday and will take most of a 3-day weekend. Usually one of the minor stakes (Qual or Derby) also start on Friday and are often followed by the other minor stake so at least one of the minors starts and finishes on the weekend.
> 
> The Amateur usually starts on a Saturday. Why Sat.? It takes at least 2 days to run an Amateur of any size.
> 
> So why not start the Amateur on Friday, finish it on Sat. afternoon and start a Derby or Q after the Amateur? It has been done, but I suspect it is a nail biter for time management. What if the Amateur entry is big and can't end on Saturday and you are faced with 25 Q dogs to cram into a partial day Sunday.
> 
> Why amateur owners don't run their own dogs in the Derby or the Q? I was offering the Friday start as to one reason owners who are still working for a living don't come to Friday stakes. There are probably other reasons.
> 
> Why aren't there many newcomers trying field trials? Of course, there's the cost and time commitment.
> 
> I think it is also the growth of hunt tests. Many start there and stay there because they are not competing against a field of dogs and their handlers. It is a pass or fail against a performance standard. You can get an orange ribbon based on what you and your dog do, not how they compared to a field of other dogs and their handlers.
> 
> There is more pass than fail in the Junior and Senior stakes which I think is a reason they have big entries as they are very attractive to amateur newcomers. If the person sticks with hunt tests, they and their dog can rise to the Master level. I think the master level is about a 40%-50% pass rate. You can then keep going to get your dog qualified for a Master National. While doing all of this, you are having successes for your time, effort, and money. And you are having fun with a a lot of folks who are supportive and not competitive.
> 
> Hunt tests are 2 days and held on weekends. You don't miss work and the weekend can be a family outing attended by the spouse and kids. Thus, participation in hunt tests is growing.
> 
> I have no suggestions in how to get more amateur owners to run their dogs in Derbies or Qual stakes nor do I have any ideas on how to get someone to try their hand at field trials.
> 
> Field trials are completely different than hunt tests. No question that they are dominated by pro trained and pro handled dogs. As an amateur who trains and handles your own dog, you are going to know this. You have to have a good dog and be as good as a pro handler and then have a lot of luck to have success. Those successes can be few and far between. It's a tough game. Always has been, always will be.
> 
> My 2-cents,
> Helen


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## John Lash

Field Trials "are what they are." If you think you can be successful you try it. If you are not successful, you move away, successful, you stay.

Field Trials are ridiculously hard. They are something to aspire to.

25 years ago there were only trials. If you wanted to train your dog for more than just hunting that was where you went. Then the Hunt tests came.

If you are looking for success, meaning gratification for work expended you will get more at a hunt test.

Field Trials are lacking committed Amateurs because it is so hard to be successful.

One of the ways to be successful is to hire a pro to train and run your dog.

If strictly amateurs are to be involved what are they to do? Train their own dog and run their own dog with very little success for how many years? How many dogs? How much money?

The "game" is so sophisticated, the training has become so good it takes a looonnng time to absorb it all. And, as the training evolves so the judging evolves. I know it's all happenstance but the "game" as it was conceived has certainly evolved into something I'm sure was never envisioned by it's originators.

I wonder if the Horse people bitch that no owners ride/drive their own horse?


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## JusticeDog

2tall said:


> but unless my memory has sagged as much as the rest of me, Ken Neil ran their winning National.
> 
> .


You are correct. Ken was at the wheel that week!


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## Wayne Nutt

Where do you find the list of National Champions that also shows the handler/trainer?


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## EdA

Rick_C said:


> What's the average number of trials a dog runs per year, 10, 12?


The majority of the professionally handled dogs at the National Championship Stake ran 20 to 25 trials, I suspect the average amateur runs 10 +/- trials each year


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## BonMallari

Wayne Nutt said:


> Where do you find the list of National Champions that also shows the handler/trainer?


Retriever News Performance Books usually shows the owner and handler...but nothing designated about the trainer


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## Cynthia Tallman

I am sorry for this being a bit tardy. Dick and I just got home yesterday, and this was the first chance I had to read through this thread. Thank you to everyone for their good wishes about Jim and Emmit's success this last week. We are still pinching ourselves and not quite believing it is true. It was a true blessing to be able to watch the whole week. This was the first NRC I have had the privilege of attending. What an honor and thrill to see the wonderful dogs and handlers that I have been reading about on the RTF and RN all these years. The event itself was run so well and smoothly due to the effort of Chair Gary Zellner and all the people who worked so hard. The Judges set up very challenging tests and were ahead of the curve the whole week. A lot of good fortune and good work by Jim and Emmit went into his winning the title NFC. We have much to be thankful for this year.


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