# *GDG* sort of "Choke Chains Belong on the Bottom of Lake Champlain"



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

It's a long one, so feel free to bear with me, or not. 

Yesterday I took my boys to the local guitar shop where the guys convinced my son last Fall that the cello was a cool instrument to play. So one week into 4th grade, we realized Max needed his own music stand. This would enable our budding cellist to play at home without spilling his dad's guitar music all over the place.

The local craftsman, to whom folks come from a multi-state area for guitar setup, eagerly went to the workshop to bring out his alternate instrument (a guitar tuned non-standardly). On it, the 4 thickest strings, (normally the big E, then A, D and G) were all tuned like an inverted cello (instead of C,G,D,A, it is A,D,G,C) He then proceeded to show us how "Every Breath you Take" by the Police was likely written on a Cello, based upon how elementary the movements are. His claim is that Sting wrote it for Andy Summers on a Cello.

He suggested that since I had two guitars, I just leave one tuned to Cello setup so Max and I can play together. I told David I'd need a third guitar since I like to keep one set to "Open E" tuning. I was surprised when David told me how cool it was that I kept an instrument on an alternate tuning. We talked about how Keith Richards has alot of Open G tuning, and how the local famous guitar instructor "poo-poos" anything but Standard tuning.

Here's the dog training analogy: David, the local guitar setup master, tells me that 10 years ago, he and all his cronies thought that anything but standard tuning was for weirdos. The only "right" way to set up a guitar was standard tuning...period. But David said that his horizons have opened significantly as he has creatively opened his eyes to alternate tunings. His suggestion: respect what the local instructor says, but also enjoy the flexibility that comes from being open minded.

I immediately had a flashback to my own life, where I used to "poo poo" the new articles that were authored by Mike Lardy as the new Retriever Journal issues arrived in my mailbox. I remember how I'd rationalize that my way was similar, and actually better for my own (little did I know, narrowminded) purposes.

But I now have fairly recently opened my horizons to pay attention to what true artists in the game can teach me.

Today, I got together with some neighbors for an ad-hoc, freebie obedience training session for their housepet dogs. One student showed up with a pinch collar. I told the group that I had no experience with one and would like to talk about it more later. 

We used the choke chains and went through a session. One of the student dogs is a typical energetic young lab who behaves well for the husband, but not so great for the wife. So we had the wife doing OB drills on a full-sized lunging lab with a choke chain. While we saw progress, it was hard on me as well, to try and steer this dog on some crisp OB drills with a choke chain. 

At the end of the session, I spent some time with the other man, who showed up with a pinch collar. I studied it with some more attention to detail, remembering that Alec Sparks has told me repeatedly that choke chains are outdated.

I told this guy to hang on... keep this collar and let me call Alec.

THANK YOU ALEC for taking yet another of my phone calls! I'm going to buy myself an extra-large pinch collar and learn how to use it. I'm going to learn how to help this family incorporate the pinch collar into their own training program and make life easier on all.

Here's the fact: All of us, in all of our hobbies or careers are capable of evolving and learning. Sometimes the very things that we are closed to at one point in our development, can come around later to be things that will help us. Sometimes the very things that we rationalize are un-necessary today, but work for someone else, turn out to be a very worthwhile way to accept and embrace.

I hope to always be a "never say "never"" kind of dog trainer. I don't think I'll throw my choke chains on the bottom of Lake Champlain. 

I do think, however, that my training aresenal is adding pinch collars, and I think I'm going to truly learn how the pinch collar can help install "power steering" on an energetic young lab, trained by a rather petite lady.

When a 6 foot 9, 250 lb guy, tells me it's too hard on dog and trainer to use a choke chain, and there's a better way, it makes sense to listen.

- PetSmart....here we come.

*THANK YOU Alec!*

Chris


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Chris, I have been using a pinch collar for several years. It is much easier to make a meaningful correction on the dog. I have to add that my last two dogs were extremely high wired retrievers. I place the pinch high up on the neck, just where people like to place the chain choke.

Now for puppies, there is a puppy pinch collar. I was skeptical at first but it worked quite well. It is made of nylon and the prongs are dulled. I still did not use it on my pup until she was 6 months but the minute I put it on, I gained control.

I won't get into the objections associated with chain choke collars. I'll just say that the prong collar has been great.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I'm sorry to hear your local music store employee is a Police fan. Lets hope Max doesn't pick up on that.


"Whos gonna ride Bodacious..."

/Paul


----------



## Pinehill (Jul 14, 2010)

just make sure the prongs are smooth. Suzanne Clothier has a great article about prong collars. They are a wonderful tool when properly used. Just like an e collar.


----------



## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

I was introduced to the benefits a quality pinch collar can have on a large Bloodhound at about 7 months old and taking him out for socializing fun trips. Anything he smelled led somewhere and thats where he wanted to go. A local obediance trainer showed me why I needed one, when she, (never around my dog before this meeting) had him nearly healing on the 3rd trip up the isle in her store. She explained what to look for in quality vs. $$ savings. More expensive collar maker has very smooth rounded prongs that only apply pressure as dog pulls away from you, cheaper has a burr-like tip on prongs and may break skin if dog bolts away applying too much pressure. The dog applies the pressure and learns how to turn it off by not pulling, hard for a tracking dog to overcome, but not impossible. He's now almost 4 and the few occasions I do put it on him I really don't need to attach a lead to it as he will walk beside me at heal like a retriever is expected to. Smell being his biggest temptation to overcome w/o being out of control at anytime, especially when in public areas.

My hot little lab wore the pinch collar once, but it didn't look good with black


----------



## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

I Have A "snood" On My Prong Collar.....something That Janice Gunn Introduced Me To. It's A Cloth That Slips Over The Prongs To Make It Easier On The Dog, While Still Letting The Dog Self-correct For Forging.
Works Great!
Diane


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Diane Brunelle said:


> I Have A "snood" On My Prong Collar.....something That Janice Gunn Introduced Me To. It's A Cloth That Slips Over The Prongs To Make It Easier On The Dog, While Still Letting The Dog Self-correct For Forging.
> Works Great!
> Diane


I have heard of it but have yet to see one.


----------



## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I do think, however, that my training aresenal is adding pinch collars, and I think I'm going to truly learn how the pinch collar can help install "power steering" on an energetic young lab, trained by a rather petite lady.
> 
> When a 6 foot 9, 250 lb guy, tells me it's too hard on dog and trainer to use a choke chain, and there's a better way, it makes sense to listen.
> 
> ...


I have thrown my choke collar into the lake  I started training when I was about 13, and maybe 100 lbs soaking wet (and haven't gotten much bigger since then). A pinch collar enables me to have control without having to use a ton of force (that I don't have). I think its a great tool, especially for "little" people. 

I like the medium sized prongs. I've never used the puppy one but hearing that review by gdgnyc, I may give it a try on my next pup. Do you think you could use it on a younger dog, say 4-5 months?


----------



## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

Pinch collar and a "power bar" is the key to happy obedience training for the trainer and the dog...


I cringe every time I see someone with a choke collar!


.


----------



## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Cool post 
BTW, those extra large prong collars belong in the bottom of the lake, too. Buy one where the prongs are only 3/4" - 1" LONG (not wide) and buy two collars and link them together to fit the dog. They work MUCH better than the big ones. Those huge ones are worthless.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

mlopez said:


> I have thrown my choke collar into the lake  I started training when I was about 13, and maybe 100 lbs soaking wet (and haven't gotten much bigger since then). A pinch collar enables me to have control without having to use a ton of force (that I don't have). I think its a great tool, especially for "little" people.
> 
> I like the medium sized prongs. I've never used the puppy one but hearing that review by gdgnyc, I may give it a try on my next pup. Do you think you could use it on a younger dog, say 4-5 months?


Most definitely. If you get to see one, it doesn't look like it will work well but I can assure you it worked for me. I only became aware of this type of collar 1 1/2 years ago. I used it on my puppy until she was at least 1 yrs. old.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Furball said:


> Cool post
> BTW, those extra large prong collars belong in the bottom of the lake, too. Buy one where the prongs are only 3/4" - 1" LONG (not wide) and buy two collars and link them together to fit the dog. They work MUCH better than the big ones. Those huge ones are worthless.


Exactly what I did. I wanted a smaller collar on my dog---more prongs and less neck without prongs.
Also better length adjustments.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Dang Chris. First you got all electrified and now your getting a pinch collar? I guess you are giving up all hopes of getting that caveman gig with Gieco huh? Next thing you know you will give up your twisted hemp rope leashes for one of those new fangled nylon jobs.
Tossed my choke chains years ago after seeing how well a pinch collar worked on a 90 pound madman of a dog. I agree with the smaller is better comment. The ones I use are adjustable and I like them smaller that looks right. More pinch I guess.

BTW- you sissy, cancelling a business trip to Georgia because of a little hurricane.....I fly out to Boston tomorrow like a real man.


----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Furball said:


> Cool post
> BTW, those extra large prong collars belong in the bottom of the lake, too. Buy one where the prongs are only 3/4" - 1" LONG (not wide) and buy two collars and link them together to fit the dog. They work MUCH better than the big ones. Those huge ones are worthless.


Perhaps not worthless...... 

Actually I use the XL size collars 90% of the time. I find the smaller size to sever for many dogs and only size down if I must.

I only use PC in a long[er] pinch/RELEASE mode and not like a sharp jerk/choke chain manner. I don't believe they are best used in the jerk/choke chain manner. At all.

Glad I could help Chris.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Alec Sparks said:


> Perhaps not worthless......
> 
> Actually I use the XL size collars 90% of the time. I find the smaller size to sever for many dogs and only size down if I must.
> 
> ...


I agree. I really think that the jerk choke chain manner hurts the dog.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I got rid of my choke chains years ago....and no longer own a pinch collar either. I was a tied-and-true, died in the wool pinch collar advocate, until I found an easier way. I use a Delmar Smith rope lead...way more effective and efficient. However...like anything else, it requires correct use.


----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Sharon, I believe the PC give dogs a superior foundation to transition to an electric collar......That pinch has to seem very very much like an ecollar imo and from what I've fooled with.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Alec, interesting comparison between the pinch collar and e-collar. 

What I like about the Smith lead is the release. It is lightning fast, and springs back the split second I stop the cue. For me, that's of primary importance, and having used both pinch and rope, the rope is more immediate.

As an aside, I thought the Smith lead was a bunch of hooey, a scam and a waste of money the first time I saw one. But, being curious, I spent the few bucks and bought one just to prove it was junk. Turns out I was way off....haven't used anything else since.


----------



## Farmboy (May 5, 2008)

Sharon, 
I am glad to see someone else who uses the well-known but seldom used EZ lead. I do all my obedience work with this lead and believe it also allows for a good transition from lead to e-collar. I normally condition with low level continuous rather than nicks which is very similar to the way the EZ lead is applied.
Happy Training,
Stephen


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I've been convinced that pinch collars are more humane (and more effective) than choke collars for at least 15 years. My first lab was tough enough with the choke collar that I really thought I was going to hurt his trachea or something. He didn't require nearly the force with the pinch collar and I no longer had to listen to him coughing/gagging after a correction. He would pull against the choke collar, but not the pinch collar. I'm not saying the choke collar is not effective, because it is, but for me the pinch collar is much easier to use to good effect.

Also from a safety perspective it would be much easier to damage a dog's windpipe with a choke collar than a pinch collar. As you surely know, the pinch collar will only get so tight. As you also know, but for the benefit of those who do not, dogs should not be left alone wearing either one, especially the choke collar due to the risk of accidental strangulation.


----------



## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

HuntinDawg said:


> ...dogs should not be left alone wearing either one...


Glad to see this reminder. I know of a couple of cases where a dog jumped up and got the ring of a collar in chain link fence - and died..


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Farmboy, what I'm using is the Delmar Smith Wonder lead (or as Rick calls it, the Command Lead)....similar concept, but the Smith lead is made of a specific type of rope that Delmar has made just for these, since the "piggin string" is too stiff. The Smith lead is used in their system with short tugs, and the e-collar is used the same way, with momentary stimulation. Is the EZ lead the same exact lead, or is Charlie making up his own?


----------



## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Went to pinch collars a long time ago after attending one of Alec's seminars!


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's what we discussed in our session today:

Pinch collar or choke chain is only on the dog when the handler/trainer is on the other end of the lead. When the handler is no longer holding onto the lead, the collar comes OFF of the dog.

I wound up with a Large and an XL that I bought today.

Thanks everyone, especially Alec. We're off to refine some technique before getting back together with the obedience students.

Chris


----------



## Farmboy (May 5, 2008)

EZ lead and wonder lead are the same, however my initial application of pressure on obedience is through low level consistent lead pressure on sit and heel command rather than short tugs.
Essentially, on heel the dog is correcting himself.
Stephen


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Sharon Potter said:


> Farmboy, what I'm using is the Delmar Smith Wonder lead (or as Rick calls it, the Command Lead)....similar concept, but the Smith lead is made of a specific type of rope that Delmar has made just for these, since the "piggin string" is too stiff. The Smith lead is used in their system with short tugs, and the e-collar is used the same way, with momentary stimulation. Is the EZ lead the same exact lead, or is Charlie making up his own?


Wish you guys would quit talking about this best kept secret in town. Course I wouldn't know nothin about no Del Mar Smith wonder lead except that I have about 4 hanging in the kennels they work ok I guess


----------



## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

Interesting thread,I've used slip-ropes,Jasa collars,various pinch-collars,and now use choke chain and heeling stick almost always.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Alec Sparks said:


> ......Actually I use the XL size collars 90% of the time. .


 
I have both and use the xl
see avatar
<-----


.


----------



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Dang Chris. First you got all electrified and now your getting a pinch collar? I guess you are giving up all hopes of getting that caveman gig with Gieco huh? Next thing you know you will give up your twisted hemp rope leashes for one of those new fangled nylon jobs.
> Tossed my choke chains years ago after seeing how well a pinch collar worked on a 90 pound madman of a dog. I agree with the smaller is better comment. The ones I use are adjustable and I like them smaller that looks right. More pinch I guess.
> 
> BTW- you sissy, cancelling a business trip to Georgia because of a little hurricane.....I fly out to Boston tomorrow like a real man.


 


Some are just a little slower to catch on I guess but I am proud that brother Chris has finally evolved.
I did chuck my choke chains but I think I'll hold on to that twisted hemp, kinda like it.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

heh, heh, heh, Steve, I love you. Hope to see ya soon.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thank you for this. People don't realize that big isn't always better. If you look at competition obedience dogs training with prong collars, they are all this size, or smaller. The smaller collars provide more "pinch to the inch" than the big ones do.




Furball said:


> Cool post
> BTW, those extra large prong collars belong in the bottom of the lake, too. Buy one where the prongs are only 3/4" - 1" LONG (not wide) and buy two collars and link them together to fit the dog. They work MUCH better than the big ones. Those huge ones are worthless.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Here's what we discussed in our session today:
> 
> Pinch collar or choke chain is only on the dog when the handler/trainer is on the other end of the lead. When the handler is no longer holding onto the lead, the collar comes OFF of the dog.
> 
> ...


Actually, pinch collar is put on dog at the truck and doesn't come off until dog is put back on the truck. 

Also, the reason you use a pinch collar is to use it to correct the dog. It should not be used to "steer" the dog. It should not be used to "restrain" the dog. Use a short tab that you hold lightly such that if dog pulls, crouches or creeps forward the tab will be pulled from your fingers.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Breck said:


> Actually, pinch collar is put on dog at the truck and doesn't come off until dog is put back on the truck.
> 
> Also, the reason you use a pinch collar is to use it to correct the dog. It should not be used to "steer" the dog. It should not be used to "restrain" the dog. Use a short tab that you hold lightly such that if dog pulls, crouches or creeps forward the tab will be pulled from your fingers.


Breck, these guys don't even put their dogs "on" trucks. These are full grown companion dogs learning obedience. 

"Power steering" is an analogy that folks use to describe the ease in comparison to driving a heavy vehicle without power steering.

I'm not trying to give any training advice on RTF about how to use a pinch collar. I'm just expressing that I'm enjoying evolving as a trainer.

Past dogs that I've trained have learned obedience as youngsters, so I've not had to deal with lunging full grown retrievers full of energy who don't know how to heel yet. 

Excuse the expression, but "power steering" seems to be a nice way to go.

Chris


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In selecting the number and length of the tines on a pinch collar, the size of the dogs neck and the length of the dogs coat at the neckline seem to me to be the controlling factors.

Then to adjust the length of the fit of a so selected collar, I would add or remove tines ,on a dog by dog basis, to allow the stroke built into the smooth chain activating system to work as designed...that being the flat side of the tine being _flat_ against the neck in the snug but ready position............the XL collar is designed for the extra large neck regards

john


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Hi Chris my comment wasn't directed towards you, just a general comment. 

If you would like to get better working a dog on line using a pinch collar try this. 
Using the tab and pinch collar: 
Hold tab knot lightly between your index and middle finger. Hook your thumb into your front jeans pocket. No death grip on tab is necessary. Keep thumb tucked in your pocket most of the time. Dogs collar will be at and even with your leg when at heel. Not 3" in front or behind. From this position adjust tab length so there is a little slack in the rope. 
You can teach dog where he needs to be and that he will be corrected if he pulls the knot out of your fingers or your thumb out of your pocket either by moving forward or backward or crouching etc.
While finessing your dog on line little tugs on the tab may be OK but normally you will simply be holding the tab loosely except when you are giving a sit correction. 
If you place your hand above dog to send be careful not to drop tab onto back of dogs neck which could turn into an unintended send cue.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

> Using the tab and pinch collar:
> Hold tab knot lightly between your index and middle finger......
> .... No death grip on tab is necessary.


yup,











> If you place your hand above dog to send be careful not to drop tab onto back of dogs neck which could turn into an unintended send cue.


and how would you know that;-);-)


.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Breck said:


> Hi Chris my comment wasn't directed towards you, just a general comment.
> 
> If you would like to get better working a dog on line using a pinch collar try this.
> Using the tab and pinch collar:
> ...


Thanks Breck! 

I appreciate the detail.

So here's a really crazy question: You guys do go ahead and run big marks with your dogs while they wear a pinch collar? It sure reads like you do. 

If so, do you do this with young dogs only, or do you actually do this with All Age dogs as well?

I'm asking sincerely.

Thanks! Chris


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> In selecting the number and length of the tines on a pinch collar, the size of the dogs neck and the length of the dogs coat at the neckline seem to me to be the controlling factors.
> 
> Then to adjust the length of the fit of a so selected collar, I would add or remove tines ,on a dog by dog basis, to allow the stroke built into the smooth chain activating system to work as designed...that being the flat side of the tine being _flat_ against the neck in the snug but ready position............the XL collar is designed for the extra large neck regards
> 
> john


Thanks for setting things straight brother Fallon!

"Tine", not "link".... http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm Those dummies at Leerburgh used the wrong word.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> You guys do go ahead and run big marks with your dogs while they wear a pinch collar? It sure reads like you do.


with this one you can. I use the Herm Spreger Quick Release
click- http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cf...ame/Herm_Sprenger_Quick_Release_Prong_Collars

they call um "links" as well;-) it is the collar in the above photo

.


----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

For me, bigger is in fact better. I rarely need the severity of smaller size pinch collars. XL's hold up better to endlessly putting them on/off and I hate farking with the joining chain clip release ones.

PC also give me a super read on where to start the dogs intensity wise when CC begins.

FWIW: I've gone from PC to e-collar use with no CCing al all on a number of dogs over the years without any problem although I don't recommend it.


----------



## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> .
> 
> THANK YOU ALEC for taking yet another of my phone calls! I'm going to buy myself an* extra-large pinch* collar and learn how to use it.
> 
> ...


I bolded the extra large part. You're better off for a lab going with a smaller prong link size and adding on extra links. You dont need the huge extra large size prongs. I use either a medium or a large.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

When all else fails, "READ" the directions

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

john


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

luvmylabs23139 said:


> I bolded the extra large part. You're better off for a lab going with a smaller prong link size and adding on extra links. You dont need the huge extra large size prongs. I use either a medium or a large.


Thanks very much for your response, and for that of others suggesting smaller links.

Alec spent quite a bit of time with me on the phone yesterday and explained to me his progression to his current pinch collar preferences and applications. Since Alec has done this with literally dozens, if not hundreds of dogs, and since his explanation of how and why were perfectly logical to me, I went with the L and the XL. 

Like some other folks have written, "more pinch for the inch" with the smaller linked (or "tined") collars. I believe based upon Alec's guidance and the three dogs' initial responses to last night's session, that we're headed in the right direction with the big links. 

Thanks! Chris


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

update and bump, cause of a phone call
while I still own and use the quick release H&S prong.
I hardly ever, almost never use the quick release option.
Just run with a tab as Breck said above.
the quick release is way cool and the collar just falls away.
but I hardly ever do it.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Breck said:


> Actually, pinch collar is put on dog at the truck and doesn't come off until dog is put back on the truck.
> 
> Also, the reason you use a pinch collar is to use it to correct the dog. It should not be used to "steer" the dog. It should not be used to "restrain" the dog. Use a short tab that you hold lightly such that if dog pulls, crouches or creeps forward the tab will be pulled from your fingers.


Yes this is the way I would use the pinch. I have a H&S and it breaks open. My dog can pull to the line, and crouch or creep, so I have found the pinch effective in my training arsenol. It looks like when I go the line at a test he needs something. He has figured it out when it is not on!!! Who is leading whom to where!!!


----------



## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

We started using the pinch collar several years ago with great results. We decided to give it a try after having watched the Mama dog with her litter. 

When the Mama is weaning a litter and they become overly rambuctious, she will roll them over on their back and place her mouth on their throats and give them a very low growl. She is firm but gentle and does not hurt them. We personaly applied this to a pup who likes to bite the hand that feeds it or any other undesirable habits. This led to using the pinch collar after the pup got some size on it and was harder to handle.

Watching the Mama dog and her interaction with her litter can be very educational.


----------



## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I have attempted to use the pinch collar several times for my students, and these are some reasons why I went back to choke chains : It seems that they need to fit properly,and with up to fifteen dogs of different sizes, it takes time for an assistant to figure out which is best for the dog he is getting out for me. The pinch collar gets hung up on the E-collar rendering it ineffective.Any suggestions by pros using this would be appreciated. If I just had a couple of dogs,it would be a no brainer to use the pinch collar .


----------



## chubasco (Feb 10, 2012)

I have 3 Labs (out of 5) that have advanced obedience titles, and compete regularly. I have always trained them with the Prong. I recommend the Herm Sprenger. Made in Germany though sold here in the USA. I use the Stainless Steel. I like that the prongs go in the same direction on each side of the neck.


----------



## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Interesting thread with lots of good info. 

The biggest problem with choke collars is 99% of people use ones that are too big. The collar should fit, and stay, right behind the dogs head. Same place the pinch collar should be. Take a look at the link Chris posted for correct location of the collar on the dog.

With a collar riding lower on the dogs neck, where they have more muscle, it take a bigger correction on the trainers part. Link size of the chain also impacts correction. The bigger the link the smaller the correction. Think sharp versus blunt.

The advantage the pinch collar has is that the dog can/will correct itself when it puts tension on the collar. This requires very little/no strength on the trainers part. The downside is that when tension is put on the collar the dog gets a correction, whether the trainer wants one or not.

With a properly sized choke collar I have had similar responses after one or two corrections as I have had with pinch collars. The nice thing about a properly sized choke collar it is much less visible than a pinch collar when out in public.

It all boils down to understanding how to use the tools you have.

Tom


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

twall said:


> With a collar riding lower on the dogs neck, where they have more muscle, it take a bigger correction on the trainers part. Link size of the chain also impacts correction. The bigger the link the smaller the correction. Think sharp versus blunt.
> 
> It all boils down to understanding how to use the tools you have.
> 
> Tom


Be awefully hard to get the conformation folks to admit or, maybe many don't know it? Those show leads are super thin, strong and put a real choke on the show dogs. Why they won't use their show leads for OB work is beyond me? Those little super thin choke collars are really effective training tools. Then, you hear them wonder why their dogs are such angels in the show ring and such A**holes everywhere else??


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Each LINK has two TINES, correct terminology ha ha. 
The case for using the smaller sized links is that if you actually use the collar while running a dog on marks/blinds then the smaller collar is safer because it sits closer to the neck, because the tines do not hold it as far away from the neck. Herm Sprenger seems to make the best ones and I have never broken one even though I use the "Micro" size. But that said the bigger link collars are just a little slower to react and take just a little more effort but are easier to put on and take off. 
Also in the Leerburg article on how to put on a collar correctly..That is the correct way to position the collar on the side of the neck IF you only heel with dog on the left side. If you double side heel then it will be on the wrong side when dog is on your right side, so I put the live ring at top of the dogs neck and then it works for either side.


----------



## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Be awefully hard to get the conformation folks to admit or, maybe many don't know it? Those show leads are super thin, strong and put a real choke on the show dogs. Why they won't use their show leads for OB work is beyond me? Those little super thin choke collars are really effective training tools. Then, you hear them wonder why their dogs are such angels in the show ring and such A**holes everywhere else??


Thems fighting words Paul!! Your not lumping conformation folks all in one pile are you?? Hmmmm...haven't you shown your Chessies? 

I don't own a choke chain. For the past 9 years I've used pinch collars on my "little" tollers, a 3 foot thin leash when doing obedience and when out for casual walks. Everyone who trains at my (Janice Gunn's) training school trains with a short leash...lots of show people there


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Show leads are not choke chains????? since when? I've never seen anyone go into a show ring without a choke collar on a dog....


----------



## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

I warn people who use PC's, they will break apart. I have used them for 5 years in my training, I have had 2 POP in the middle prongs. Granted these where 2 hard chargers, but they will POP. The easy clip ones are to easly to pop to. I stay away from them. 
I use a slip lead to teach "Pressure Off" before I use a Prong on any dog. It makes the first pinch less "OMG what are you doing". It does make the trans to e-collar easier.
Tony


----------



## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Love the pinch collar for young dogs. As far as tuning goes - I love what Neil Young does with Drop D tuning, double Drop D tuning, as well as Jimmy Page - the Rain Song, etc...


----------



## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Be awefully hard to get the conformation folks to admit or, maybe many don't know it?


Oh, we definitely knew! All three chessies in my avatar had multiple obedience titles. Ranger, brown dog in avatar, was a rescue so he wasn't shown. Both bitches were CH's wth group placements.

Getting the training, choke, collars out was kind of like getting the e collar out. The dogs loved it!

Tom


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

twall said:


> Oh, we definitely knew! All three chessies in my avatar had multiple obedience titles. Ranger, brown dog in avatar, was a rescue so he wasn't shown. Both bitches were CH's wth group placements.
> 
> Getting the training, choke, collars out was kind of like getting the e collar out. The dogs loved it!
> 
> Tom


Tom, Don't you dare call it a choke chain at a dog show!


----------



## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Show leads are not choke chains????? since when? I've never seen anyone go into a show ring without a choke collar on a dog....


Hmmm...in my world a "show lead" is just a short thin leash .... A show collar can be a thin choke chain, a thin nylon fabric choke, Martingale collar or it could be an all-in-one slip lead/ collar. Depends on the dog. 

I don't use the show choke chain as I would a regular chain. It would break. AND the average dog pulls on a show collar the same way they do wearing a flat buckle collar... IMO the reason you haven't seen many show dogs being idiots at the shows is cause they are literally kept on a very short leash....

Pinch collars rule


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I use choke collars for all of my dogs and puppies. I have never had an issue with them. The "choke" collar works out of surprise, not out of force. When I have needed a little more pressure, I have used the pinch collar. The pinch collar is my second tool, the choke collar is my primary tool for beginning obedience.


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I do the same. It's kind of had to "pop" a pup when it wants to moves in a front sit with a pinch collar,much easier and better results with a chain. I only go to the pinch for hardheads when we start heeling work. I have a big(90lb) 1.5 yr old male right now that was dragging the owner everywhere and they could not get him steady. In three days he was walking at heel off lead and waiting to be sent on a hand thrown dummy by using the pinch collar. I don't have use it often but when I do it gets the results I want.


Ted Shih said:


> I use choke collars for all of my dogs and puppies. I have never had an issue with them. The "choke" collar works out of surprise, not out of force. When I have needed a little more pressure, I have used the pinch collar. The pinch collar is my second tool, the choke collar is my primary tool for beginning obedience.


----------



## Garo20 (Jul 4, 2012)

Take it from a K9 handler who trains Rotties, a pinch collar is like power steering.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Garo20 said:


> Take it from a K9 handler who trains Rotties, a pinch collar is like power steering.


I'm doing a retriever demo and also helping do a K9 law enforcement demo tomorrow. I can't wait. 

What you guys do with the K9 stuff is truly amazing.

Chris


----------

