# Good bye Euk!



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

It is with a heavy heart that I must say good bye to Eukanuba. I love the food and think it is about the best out there but I just got hit with another increase of 12% and that's after a 24% increase just a few months back. I stuck by them through the first increase but they are loosing me now. Guess I'll be forced to go to ProPlan:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

Steve Shaver said:


> It is with a heavy heart that I must say good bye to Eukanuba. I love the food and think it is about the best out there but I just got hit with another increase of 12% and that's after a 24% increase just a few months back. I stuck by them through the first increase but they are loosing me now. Guess I'll be forced to go to ProPlan:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x


 Forget Pro Plan, contact Dr. Tim Hunt @ Dr. Tim's and get pallet prices from him. For the price of Pro Plan you can get the food that won the Iditarod two years in row and placed 3 of the top 5 dogs at the Purina Endurance Trial last year, among championships in other canine sports. Pursuit 30/20 is a good retriever formula.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Don't mind the price of Pro Plan and will pay b/c my dogs look good and have loads of energy!


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

victor. all formulas are corn, soy, wheat, and gluten free. made in mt. pleasant, tx. 40 lb 30/20 $32 or 40 lb every other blend $26.99


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Welp at least Pro-plan gives back, I get a bag every HRC test I run, also purple is cooler that pink .


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## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

blake_mhoona said:


> victor. all formulas are corn, soy, wheat, and gluten free. made in mt. pleasant, tx. 40 lb 30/20 $32 or 40 lb every other blend $26.99


Where do you get those prices??


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

I feed victor and have great results, wish I could find it as cheap as you but I get it for $33 for a 40lb bag


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

its been about 6 months since i priced it at a retail store but at that time it was at our local Feed store. if you use enough to warrant becoming a dealer i think it was an easy setup. my dad has 8 dogs (4 english bull dogs and 4 yard dogs) and he could sell it at the jewelery store he owned. minimum order was 50 bags (ton) so i actually get it at $28 for 30/20 and $24 for everything else (excluding grain free). i think the grain free runs a little higher but the gluten free i think is about that price i quoted in previous comment. if you are paying more its because your dealer feels he needs a significant mark up.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

SpinRetriever said:


> Forget Pro Plan, contact Dr. Tim Hunt @ Dr. Tim's and get pallet prices from him. For the price of Pro Plan you can get the food that won the Iditarod two years in row and placed 3 of the top 5 dogs at the Purina Endurance Trial last year, among championships in other canine sports. Pursuit 30/20 is a good retriever formula.


Can you give us the break down of dogs competing in, say, the recent National Amateur RFTC or the National Retriever Championship? How many eat Dr. Tim's vs Euk vs PP?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> victor. all formulas are corn, soy, wheat, and gluten free. made in mt. pleasant, tx. 40 lb 30/20 $32 or 40 lb every other blend $26.99


I just looked at this food. They do sell it around here. Do you think sorghum is more suitable for dogs than corn?


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I think spin retrievers point is the retriever sports requiring the most endurance, energy, and effort are using it. Which to me would mean it was good enough for retriever sports hands down...


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

limiman12 said:


> I think spin retrievers point is the retriever sports requiring the most endurance, energy, and effort are using it. Which to me would mean it was good enough for retriever sports hands down...


I think spin is saying it is superior to PP, and that Steve's retrievers are better off eating Dr Tims than Pro Plan. I'd like some evidence in competition retrievers.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

i think it is more suitable than corn but not necessarily a good thing you are correct. taken from dog food advisor website:

"Since it is gluten-free and boasts a smoother blood sugar behavior than other grains, sorghum may be considered an acceptable non-meat ingredient."

I know you can't trust all these websites but this one seems to be legit and has the science to back it up. the brand itself gets 4 stars and of the individual blends that have been tested the results are:

Victor Select High Energy 
Victor Select Hi Pro Plus (*5 stars*)
Victor Select Ocean Fish Formula
Victor Select Professional Formula
Victor Select Performance Formula
Victor Select Lamb Meal and Brown Rice
Victor Select Multi-Pro Maintenance (*3.5 stars*)
Victor Select Beef Meal and Brown Rice (*3.5 stars*)
Victor Select Senior/Healthy Weight Formula (*4.5 stars*)

I use the Hi-Pro Plus because of the 30/20 blend.

Eukanuba on the other hand gets 3.5 stars for its 30/20 and 3 stars for its Large breed adult (and other dry foods)

here's the link to read up on its ingredients:

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/victor-dog-food/


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

mitty said:


> I think spin is saying it is superior to PP, and that Steve's retrievers are better off eating Dr Tims than Pro Plan. I'd like some evidence in competition retrievers.


 PP isn't even in the same class as Dr. Tim's. Best to ask people that have switched. No sense paying top dollar for corn and corn by-products when you can have much better food with animal protein and free of ethoxyquin for the same price essentially. The more demanding sports don't use PP they use foods like Dr. Tim's and Redpaw and a few others. I know people have loyalty to Pro Plan but I won't pay top dollar for nostalgia. I have seen the difference myself and 5 years ago I would have said the same thing as you. I think he charges like 1.25lb delivered on a pallet purchase, which is a steal if you can take 50, 44lb bags. I know kennels that have set up small dealerships with foods like DT and put some nice cash in their pocket selling retail. Retail the same foods sell $2lb.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

SpinRetriever said:


> PP isn't even in the same class as Dr. Tim's. Best to ask people that have switched. No sense paying top dollar for corn and corn by-products when you can have much better food with animal protein and free of ethoxyquin for the same price essentially. The more demanding sports don't use PP they use foods like Dr. Tim's and Redpaw and a few others. I know people have loyalty to Pro Plan but I won't pay top dollar for nostalgia. I have seen the difference myself and 5 years ago I would have said the same thing as you. I think he charges like 1.25lb delivered on a pallet purchase, which is a steal if you can take 50, 44lb bags. I know kennels that have set up small dealerships with foods like DT and put some nice cash in their pocket selling retail. Retail the same foods sell $2lb.



Field trials are not endurance sports like the Idiatrod. In field trials dogs work really hard for a few minutes at a time---maybe 20 minutes max in the water series. The ideal dog food for one sport may not be ideal for another. 

As far as ingredients go, I am not a fan of corn in my dog's food, but I also don't want to feed it a lot of the ingredients I see listed for Dr. Tim's. Despite media hype, barley, oats, rice bran and barley seem no better than corn, and I'd rather my dog got its omega 3's from fish oil than canola oil and flax seed.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

mitty said:


> I think spin is saying it is superior to PP, and that Steve's retrievers are better off eating Dr Tims than Pro Plan. I'd like some evidence in competition retrievers.


You know the answer. Of course more FT retrievers are on PPP. That doesn't mean it is better than Dr. Tims, or worse. I imagine that it has more to do with habit, inertia and sponsorships than anything else.

I don't feed or have any interest in either, so I don't care, but your point is not made by going all Fallon on anyone who dares to suggest that there may be a better food for their dogs than PPP.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

mitty said:


> Field trials are not endurance sports like the Idiatrod. In field trials dogs work really hard for a few minutes at a time---maybe 20 minutes max in the water series. The ideal dog food for one sport may not be ideal for another.
> 
> As far as ingredients go, I am not a fan of corn in my dog's food, but I also don't want to feed it a lot of the ingredients I see listed for Dr. Tim's. Despite media hype, barley, oats, rice bran and barley seem no better than corn, and I'd rather my dog got its omega 3's from fish oil than canola oil and flax seed.


I have to disagree...good food is good food. There are a lot more exercise and endurance needs that go into a retriever than a weekend 20 minute water series. You don't have to feed your dog the 35/25+ mix offered for their (Iditarod) needs. The best I've used to date was Eagle Pack before they sold to WellPet. EP used to be popular with the sled dog crowd. After looking at Dr. Tim's food, it looks quite similar to the old EP. These food threads are always the same (zzzzzz): A vs B vs...use whatever works and makes you feel comfortable.

Maybe folks should see what they (individuals or club) collectively can do through bulk purchases to drive down costs.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

DoubleHaul said:


> You know the answer. Of course more FT retrievers are on PPP. That doesn't mean it is better than Dr. Tims, or worse. I imagine that it has more to do with habit, inertia and sponsorships than anything else.
> 
> I don't feed or have any interest in either, so I don't care, but your point is not made by going all Fallon on anyone who dares to suggest that there may be a better food for their dogs than PPP.


Really? Spin says Steve should feed Dr Tim's because dogs win if they eat it. What's wrong with asking for proof? 

Check out Spin's other recent posts. Spin really pushes Dr. Tim's.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

mitty said:


> As far as ingredients go, I am not a fan of corn in my dog's food, but I also don't want to feed it a lot of the ingredients I see listed for Dr. Tim's. Despite media hype, barley, oats, rice bran and barley seem no better than corn, and I'd rather my dog got its omega 3's from fish oil than canola oil and flax seed.


If that is the way you feel then i think you may be better off going grain free then because all foods are going to have those ingredients. i think combined with a high meat to grain ratio (and protein from meat) those ingredients can be beneficial

*millet*, a gluten-free grain harvested from certain seed grasses. Millet is hypoallergenic and naturally rich in B-vitamins and fiber as well as other essential minerals.
*alfalfa meal*. Although alfalfa meal is high in plant protein (about 18%) and fiber (25%), this hay-family item is more commonly associated with horse feeds.

*flaxseed*, one of the best plant sources of healthy omega-3 fatty acids. Provided they’ve first been ground into a meal, flax seeds are also rich in soluble fiber.
However, flaxseed contains about 19% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food.

*oatmeal*, a whole-grain product made from coarsely ground oats. Oatmeal is naturally rich in B-vitamins, dietary fiber and can be (depending upon its level of purity) gluten-free.


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

mitty said:


> Field trials are not endurance sports like the Idiatrod. In field trials dogs work really hard for a few minutes at a time---maybe 20 minutes max in the water series. The ideal dog food for one sport may not be ideal for another.
> 
> As far as ingredients go, I am not a fan of corn in my dog's food, but I also don't want to feed it a lot of the ingredients I see listed for Dr. Tim's. Despite media hype, barley, oats, rice bran and barley seem no better than corn, and I'd rather my dog got its omega 3's from fish oil than canola oil and flax seed.


 DT's performance foods are very low carbohydrate. Momentum is one of lowest carb foods on the market at 18% and 95% animal protein of the total. Pro Plan is 50%. Pursuit is about 28% still very low. You can ask Tim but there is a ton of fish oil in DT and canola oil is a minor ingredient and it isn't even in Momentum. In Pursuit it is listed near the probiotics so maybe there is a few tablespoons in a large bag. Menhaden oil and several kinds of fish are in each formula. Look at the high EPA & DHA levels, canola oil doesn't have either.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Blake, thanks for pointing out that dogfoodadvisor has the Euk 30/20 analysis. I had only found other Euk products there before. I don't understand some of their conclusions about dog food ingredients in general, though. They don't like to see sweet potatoes in dog food, for example, but sweet potatoes are really nutritious. Also they write that, nutritionally, sorghum is like corn, but they are more ok with sorghum and than corn, and they are more ok with sorghum than sweet potatoes. This makes no sense to me.

Edit: If I weren't too lazy, I would prepare my dogs' food fresh, like I do for my human family. If I'm going the kibble route, I am drawn to the foods whose ingredients are the least processed...though by the time the kibble is processed I'm not sure it really matters!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

SpinRetriever said:


> DT's performance foods are very low carbohydrate. Momentum is one of lowest carb foods on the market at 18% and 95% animal protein of the total. Pro Plan is 50%. Pursuit is about 28% still very low. You can ask Tim but there is a ton of fish oil in DT and canola oil is a minor ingredient and it isn't even in Momentum. In Pursuit it is listed near the probiotics so maybe there is a few tablespoons in a large bag. Menhaden oil and several kinds of fish are in each formula. Look at the high EPA & DHA levels, canola oil doesn't have either.


I do like all of the nutritional info that DTs has on their website---I wish all the pet food companies would be so forth coming. They don't sell DTs around here so I can't try it. I have not been able to find any of the higher fat dog foods for sale around here. Victors is sold in a few stores around here, but I bet when I go check it out they will just have the non-sporting dog versions on the shelves.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

mitty said:


> Blake, thanks for pointing out that dogfoodadvisor has the Euk 30/20 analysis. I had only found other Euk products there before. I don't understand some of their conclusions about dog food ingredients in general, though. They don't like to see sweet potatoes in dog food, for example, but sweet potatoes are really nutritious. Also they write that, nutritionally, sorghum is like corn, but they are more ok with sorghum and than corn, and they are more ok with sorghum than sweet potatoes. This makes no sense to me.
> 
> Edit: If I weren't too lazy, I would prepare my dogs' food fresh, like I do for my human family. If I'm going the kibble route, I am drawn to the foods whose ingredients are the least processed...though by the time the kibble is processed I'm not sure it really matters!


that's odd because this was the definition i saw them write about sweet potatoes:

The second ingredient is *sweet potato*. Sweet potatoes are a gluten-free source of complex carbohydrates in a dog food. They are naturally rich in dietary fiber and beta carotene.


I have yet to see where they compared sweet potato and sorghum. i have seen where foods that had sweet potato scored lower than ones with sorghum because when you combined all the ingredients you got a lower over all nutrition value.

as to the victor thing the 30/20 is advertised for pups and nursing bitches but i still feed it because of the 30/20 blend i could go to the other formulas but i like the performance i was getting out of him when he was still a pup. i switched formulas once and the kibble is a little bit bigger and he was so used to eating this small kibble he wasnt really chewing it and ended up choking on it. the 30/20 kibble is about the size of a sweet pea the others are about the size of a thumbnail


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> that's odd because this was the definition i saw them write about sweet potatoes:
> 
> The second ingredient is *sweet potato*. Sweet potatoes are a gluten-free source of complex carbohydrates in a dog food. They are naturally rich in dietary fiber and beta carotene.


Ooops, it looks like I got my dog food reviews mixed up. Sorry about that.

Edit: Here's where I read that sweet potatoes (3 stars) are inferior to sorghum (5 stars) in pet food:

http://www.naturalnews.com/report_pet_food_ingredients_2.html


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> i think it is more suitable than corn but not necessarily a good thing you are correct. taken from dog food advisor website:
> 
> "Since it is gluten-free and boasts a smoother blood sugar behavior than other grains, sorghum may be considered an acceptable non-meat ingredient."
> 
> ...


Interesting. It looks to me like Dogfoodadvisor.com is down on Euk 30/20 in large part because its main ingredient is chicken, and because in contains chicken by product meal. Chicken is mostly water, they say, so they assume that actual contribution of chicken to the food is low. However, where would the 30% protein come from, if not from the chicken? 

The only other major protein source listed is the feed's second ingredient, chicken by product meal. They don't like chicken by product, but they also say that chicken meal has has the same protein profile as chicken. This is reported here elsewhere on their website (http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/animal-by-products/). Their source is an article by Hilary Watson that availble online (http://www.hilarywatson.com/chicken.pdf). So dogfoodadvisor.com is reporting that chicken meal and chicken by product meal are nutritionally equal, yet they conclude that chicken by product meal is inferior to chicken meal. 

None of the other ingredients contain much protein (not sure what brewers rice is, though), so it looks to me that they are dinging some foods like Euk because in contains chicken by product meal, which they say is equal to chicken meal.

What am I missing?

And no, I don't have too much time on my hands...just not interested in what I'm really supposed to be doing! :razz:

On the other hand, I feel better about feeding my dog Euk 30/20 after this little exercise!


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

mitty said:


> I do like all of the nutritional info that DTs has on their website---I wish all the pet food companies would be so forth coming. They don't sell DTs around here so I can't try it. I have not been able to find any of the higher fat dog foods for sale around here. Victors is sold in a few stores around here, but I bet when I go check it out they will just have the non-sporting dog versions on the shelves.


You can get a 44 lb bag of Dr. Tim's 30/20 delivered to your door for about $67 from Petflow.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

basically what i've read is by-product meal and plain meal are nutritionally the same. BUT by-product meal is the meal derived from lips, peckers, and intestines (as the saying goes for bologna lol) that are NOT fit for human consumption. Be it sitting in heat, dead on arrival to plant, etc. chicken meal however is bones and neck/carcass meat etc that could be safe for human consumption but is made into meal for animals (the meat other than breast, wings, thighs, legs, etc). i believe the reason Eukanuba gets low marks is because of this paragraph right here:


With five notable *exceptions*…
First, *brewers yeast* can be a controversial item. Although it’s a by-product of the beer making process, this ingredient is rich in minerals and other healthy nutrients. Fans believe yeast repels fleas and supports the immune system.
Critics argue yeast ingredients can be linked to *allergies*. This may be true, but (like all allergies) only if your particular dog is allergic to the yeast itself.
In addition, a vocal minority insists yeast can increase the risk of developing the life-threatening condition known as bloat. However, this is a claim we’ve not been able to scientifically verify.In any case, unless your dog is specifically allergic to it, yeast can still be considered a *nutritious additive*.
*What’s more noteworthy here is that brewers yeast contains about 48% protein, a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food*. Next, *fish oil* is naturally rich in the prized EPA and DHA type of omega-3 fatty acids. These two high quality fats boast the highest bio-availability to dogs and humans.Depending on its level of freshness and purity, fish oil should be considered a commendable addition.
This recipe also contains *fructooligosaccharide*, an alternative sweetener[SUP]1[/SUP] probably used here as a prebiotic. Prebiotics function to support the growth of healthy bacteria in the large intestine. Next, we note the inclusion of *sodium hexametaphosphate*, a man-made industrial polymer with no known nutritive value.
HMP is used in making soap, detergents, water treatment, metal finishing and most likely here to decrease tartar build-up on the teeth.
Although some might disagree, we’re of the opinion that food is not the place for tartar control chemicals or any other non-nutritive substances.
And lastly, the *minerals* listed here do not appear to be chelated. And that can make them more difficult to absorb. Non-chelated minerals are usually associated with lower quality dog foods.


There's a lot of stuff that shouldnt be in there at all. I've bolded/underliend the statement about where protein may come from other than chicken. chicken by itself is not a lot of protein, chicken by-product meal or chicken meal is 300% more protein than just plain ole chicken. so you have to ask your self do you want by-product meal or meal for the dog.

i switched from Euk. because of its lack of chelated minerals, a good probiotic, price/bag size, and mostly just ingredients vague and cheap that they are. the review said that there is "fish meal" with no description other than "fish" and that it was probably preserved with Ethoxyquin. a preservative in dog foods also used as a pesticide… and as a hardening agent in the manufacture of rubber. known to cause liver failure, cancer, and still born puppies. that is perfectly legal to use in dog food but not human food.

yes Euk. Premium Performance is better than their regular dry dog food, but, after reading this review a year ago i just felt for the money and quality of ingredients victor was worth a shot and i/the dog have loved the switch. i turned my dad onto it and now he's a dealer for his




and yes i dont enjoy what i am doing right now so it seems like i have a lot of free time


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

mitty said:


> Ooops, it looks like I got my dog food reviews mixed up. Sorry about that.
> 
> Edit: Here's where I read that sweet potatoes (3 stars) are inferior to sorghum (5 stars) in pet food:
> 
> http://www.naturalnews.com/report_pet_food_ingredients_2.html


that website is kind of weird. u have whole sweet potatoes at 5* and then regular sweet potatoes at 3*. they dont give any science either. i would venture to say that that is an opinion based website


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> basically what i've read is by-product meal and plain meal are nutritionally the same. BUT by-product meal is the meal derived from lips, peckers, and intestines (as the saying goes for bologna lol) that are NOT fit for human consumption. Be it sitting in heat, dead on arrival to plant, etc. chicken meal however is bones and neck/carcass meat etc that could be safe for human consumption but is made into meal for animals (the meat other than breast, wings, thighs, legs, etc). i believe the reason Eukanuba gets low marks is because of this paragraph right here:
> 
> 
> With five notable *exceptions*…
> ...


Yeah I read all that. The Hilary Watson article explained the poultry by products in a less gruesome fashion than you! :razz:

There isn't much much brewers yeast in the feed, so even at 48% protein it can't possibly contribute very much to total protein content of the feed. 

I wonder why they put a lot of that stuff in the feed.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

*Chicken By product*
For example, giblets not refrigerated immediately after slaughter but stored for up to 24 hours in a hot offal[SUP]3[/SUP] trailer cannot be sold for human consumption.
Yet they can still be legally used for making pet food.Likewise, dead-on-arrival animals or other condemned parts[SUP]4[/SUP] that have been declared inedible and unfit for human consumption can still be used for making pet food. Basically, animal by-products are what’s left of a slaughtered animal after the edible parts have been removed. They include the waste[SUP]2[/SUP] of meat processing not intended for human consumption. For example…


Feet
Backs
Livers
Lungs
Heads
Brains
Spleen
Frames
Kidneys
Stomachs
Intestines
Undeveloped eggs

*chicken meal*
whole “ground” chicken contains about 70% water and 18% protein. But after rendering… the resulting chicken meal contains just 10% water… and a whopping 65% protein.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

$67! I ain't paying that even if it turned them into superman. I feed anywhere from 8 to 14 dogs. I'd go broke. I left PPP because of the last hike and I was a diehard PPP guy. I still think it is a good food and the dogs do good on it but they are all getting crazy....they must be in cahoots with the oil companies!


Charles C. said:


> You can get a 44 lb bag of Dr. Tim's 30/20 delivered to your door for about $67 from Petflow.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

labman63 said:


> $67! I ain't paying that even if it turned them into superman. I feed anywhere from 8 to 14 dogs. I'd go broke. I left PPP because of the last hike and I was a diehard PPP guy. I still think it is a good food and the dogs do good on it but they are all getting crazy....they must be in cahoots with the oil companies!


For someone feeding that many dogs they have a pallet program that makes it considerably cheaper. If you go in the store and buy a bag of eukanuba, you're going to spend about that same price per pound. It's just going to be in a smaller bag.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Charles C. said:


> For someone feeding that many dogs they have a pallet program that makes it considerably cheaper. If you go in the store and buy a bag of eukanuba, you're going to spend about that same price per pound. It's just going to be in a smaller bag.


Excellent point! Free shipping!

So I was going to try some momentum for my skinny dog but it is out of stock every where. Ditto for the 30/20. (large bags anyhow)


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

What about trying 'Taste of the Wild' dog food,their formulas are all grain free?


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

Dooley said:


> What about trying 'Taste of the Wild' dog food,their formulas are all grain free?


as a whole it gets 4.5 stars but its wetland blend gets 5 stars. If i cant get Victor from my dad (he lives hour away so usually every 6 weekends i get a bag) then i have a little 5lb bag i feed to tide me over till the weekend. good food just too expensive to feed consistently.


mitty curious how many cups do you feed of Euk? if i was feeding premium performance he would be getting 4.5 cups right now. he gets 3.5 on victor (3 if we arent training for more than a few days). that all adds up. when we switched from Large breed puppy to victor i went from 6 cups (according to chart) to 3 cups. talk about a big switch! premium foods with good ingredients require less intake to fulfill nutritional levels i.e. use less food and save money. so with victor i was paying less, getting more, and using it for longer. it might take me 3-4 1/4lb cheeseburgers from McDonalds to feel full but an 8 oz steak usually hits the spot


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> as a whole it gets 4.5 stars but its wetland blend gets 5 stars. If i cant get Victor from my dad (he lives hour away so usually every 6 weekends i get a bag) then i have a little 5lb bag i feed to tide me over till the weekend. good food just too expensive to feed consistently.
> 
> 
> mitty curious how many cups do you feed of Euk? if i was feeding premium performance he would be getting 4.5 cups right now. he gets 3.5 on victor (3 if we arent training for more than a few days). that all adds up. when we switched from Large breed puppy to victor i went from 6 cups (according to chart) to 3 cups. talk about a big switch! premium foods with good ingredients require less intake to fulfill nutritional levels i.e. use less food and save money. so with victor i was paying less, getting more, and using it for longer. it might take me 3-4 1/4lb cheeseburgers from McDonalds to feel full but an 8 oz steak usually hits the spot


She's <60lbs, eats 4+ cups per day, which I may supplement with fish, tripe and other stuff I think is good for her and that she needs. If she is jacked up, like at a trial, she doesn't eat much. I've tried foods like Orijen, and she did maintain her weight better but...ahhhemmm...I think made her a little constipated.

The fat levels in Taste of the Wild are very low, it is not a food I consider appropriate for my dog.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

JTS said:


> What makes this site an authority???
> 
> They have a website with ratings......so what......who is doing the analysis?? Credentials???? Just cause they say so...and put it on the internet......doesn't mean they are correct.


i guess you didnt see the analysis of said ingredients or ratios and carbohydrate analysis

the guy that runs this website is a doctor


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Euk PP is getting stupid expensive. I just bred my Chopper bitch and will stick with it through that but after I will be shopping. Can't use Pro Plan as my dogs could crap through a screen door on it. Don't know where we will be headed after Christmas.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Been on the Victor train for last few months and dogs are doing great on it and 33$ a bag at the feed store is nice.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

I wish folks would stop posting on this thread. I have to keep checking to see if more lots have been added to the recall. ;-)


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

JTS said:


> A Doctor of Dental Surgery ......I guess you didn't read the website.
> 
> by his own admission he made his analysis from public information sources .......... some people will believe anything if its posted on the Internet!


I saw he was a dentist. On the same token he had to take a butt load of chemistry, biology, physiology, etc to get there. I should no since I was a biology major for a year (changed to finance as I couldn't cut the mustard in organic chem). What is nutrition other than chemistry? All I was saying was that of all the dog food reviews sites I've seen his actually had science rather than opinion.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

JTS said:


> A Doctor of Dental Surgery ......I guess you didn't read the website.
> 
> by his own admission he made his analysis from public information sources .......... some people will believe anything if its posted on the Internet!


Amen. Seems to me the disclaimers are way more expansive than last time I read it a couple years ago. 

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/disclaimer-and-disclosure/


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

SpinRetriever said:


> PP isn't even in the same class as Dr. Tim's. Best to ask people that have switched. No sense paying top dollar for corn and corn by-products when you can have much better food with animal protein and free of ethoxyquin for the same price essentially. The more demanding sports don't use PP they use foods like Dr. Tim's and Redpaw and a few others. I know people have loyalty to Pro Plan but I won't pay top dollar for nostalgia. I have seen the difference myself and 5 years ago I would have said the same thing as you. I think he charges like *1.25lb *delivered on a pallet purchase, which is a steal if you can take 50, 44lb bags. I know kennels that have set up small dealerships with foods like DT and put some nice cash in their pocket selling retail. Retail the same foods sell $2lb.


If I want to pay a buck and a quarter a pound I'll stick with Euk!


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

blake_mhoona said:


> as a whole it gets 4.5 stars but its wetland blend gets 5 stars. If i cant get Victor from my dad (he lives hour away so usually every 6 weekends i get a bag) then i have a little 5lb bag i feed to tide me over till the weekend.* good food just too expensive to feed consistently.*mitty curious how many cups do you feed of Euk? if i was feeding premium performance he would be getting 4.5 cups right now. he gets 3.5 on victor (3 if we arent training for more than a few days). that all adds up. when we switched from Large breed puppy to victor i went from 6 cups (according to chart) to 3 cups. talk about a big switch! premium foods with good ingredients require less intake to fulfill nutritional levels i.e. use less food and save money. so with victor i was paying less, getting more, and using it for longer. it might take me 3-4 1/4lb cheeseburgers from McDonalds to feel full but an 8 oz steak usually hits the spot


Can you expand on the part that I bolded in your post?
Do you switch in and out of it as finances allow? I'm not sure that I follow.

DP


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

I use a 40# bag of victor to feed my dog. I get it at wholesale from my dad. If I run out on a Wednesday I have a 5 pound bag of taste of the wild to feed till the weekend when I can go pick up a bag from him. He lives an hour away. We are there 2-3 weekends a month (everyone wants to see the grand baby) anyway so I'm not wasting gas money by going down there plus I'm helping him get rid of his 50 bag allotment. 

That 5 lb bag cost $12 but is the best alternative in my area in a *small quantity*. If u were to buy a 30-40 lb bag it'd be old before I used it since I only use it a few times every other month (time to go through a bag of victor). As it is right now that 5lb bag has lasted me 4 months again just feeding it when I'm out of victor and its the middle of the week. I could just buy my victor locally but I'd pay 4-6 dollars more and like I said I'm at my dads 2-3 times a month anyway. I try to plan on picking up a bag of victor when I'm down there knowing where I stand with food at home. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way hence the small bag of taste of the wild


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Why don't you just get two bags from your dad when you go?


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

Brad B said:


> Why don't you just get two bags from your dad when you go?


well that would be the smart thing to do wouldnt it?

that is the plan starting at the first of the year. he has 4 english bulldogs and all 4 of them were bred this year about 2-3 months apart having 6-10 pups each. the food i use is also used for nursing bitches and puppies. he usually only orders 10-15 (of 50) bags of that food for his personal use and sells all the other blends. if when i run out of food he's low on the blend i use i offer to get the other blend so the dogs and pups he has can use it. he's only been a dealer for a year or so, so he's just now getting a good formula for how many of what blends he needs for me, him, and his clients. i average 2-3 bags of his order and he probably averages 8-9 bags. but if its taking awhile to move product (the other blends) we can run out of our blend quick.


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## Jconway (Jun 14, 2013)

Try Loyall...I have tried them all and Loyall is awesome and 35$ for a 40lb bag!!!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> I saw he was a dentist. On the same token he had to take a butt load of chemistry, biology, physiology, etc to get there. I should no since I was a biology major for a year (changed to finance as I couldn't cut the mustard in organic chem). What is nutrition other than chemistry? All I was saying was that of all the dog food reviews sites I've seen his actually had science rather than opinion.


He is qualified to write his blog, but he is not a scientist, and his ratings are disputable. His evaluations are based on his beliefs about the importance and appropriateness of specific ingredients in canine diets. His ratings are also influenced by assumptions he makes about the quantity of meat ingredients included in the feed, based on their place in the list. The ratings are formulaic, and they do not consider how well they actually promote the health of actual dogs. For example, he believes that meat derived protein sources are superior to those derived from plants, and he believes feeds containing meat by products are inferior to those that don't. Therefore feeds that contain meat by products or plant protein sources receive lower ratings, even if their contributions to the feed are small. I do not agree with his methods, but I am ok with his ratings because he has spelled out how he arrived at them; I can go from there to arrive at my own conclusions.

Some of the feeds that receive 4 or 5 stars are products you would never feed your dog because fat or protein levels are unacceptably low for canine athletes. The guaranteed analysis for Annamaet, for example, is just 24% protein and 13% fat, and it gets 4 stars. He concludes that it is a meat based formula. Eukanuba 30/20 that I agonized about in a previous post has a GA of 30% protein and 20% fat and gets 3.5 stars. He concludes that Euk 30/20 is a plant based food. I come to very different conclusions about how much meat these products likely contain and which is a better food for my dog from reading the same feed labels.

I have my own theory about what dogs should eat. Although I do not feed Purina to my dogs right now, Purina's strong suit is that they produce research on feeds and they are one of the few companies that tests the dog feeds they formulate on actual dogs. If you were to branch out and read the articles published in the research journals about dog foods (a few of these are sourced on dogfoodadvisor.com), you will see that many of the studies are funded or produced by companies like Purina. If it weren't for Purina's research, would Dr. Tim even know what to put in his dog food? I have not idea, but I do wonder.

I think dogfoodadvisor.com is an informative consumer website, but no one should consider it a definitive source about canine nutrition. There is no definitive source. If formulating the perfect kibble were that easy, there would be no market for the huge variety of dog feeds.

Two cents regards...


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

mitty said:


> He is qualified to write his blog, but he is not a scientist, and his ratings are disputable. His evaluations are based on his beliefs about the importance and appropriateness of specific ingredients in canine diets. His ratings are also influenced by assumptions he makes about the quantity of meat ingredients included in the feed, based on their place in the list. The ratings are formulaic, and they do not consider how well they actually promote the health of actual dogs. For example, he believes that meat derived protein sources are superior to those derived from plants, and he believes feeds containing meat by products are inferior to those that don't. Therefore feeds that contain meat by products or plant protein sources receive lower ratings, even if their contributions to the feed are small. I do not agree with his methods, but I am ok with his ratings because he has spelled out how he arrived at them; I can go from there to arrive at my own conclusions.
> 
> Some of the feeds that receive 4 or 5 stars are products you would never feed your dog because fat or protein levels are unacceptably low for canine athletes. The guaranteed analysis for Annamaet, for example, is just 24% protein and 13% fat, and it gets 4 stars. He concludes that it is a meat based formula. Eukanuba 30/20 that I agonized about in a previous post has a GA of 30% protein and 20% fat and gets 3.5 stars. He concludes that Euk 30/20 is a plant based food. I come to very different conclusions about how much meat these products likely contain and which is a better food for my dog from reading the same feed labels.
> 
> ...


 Dog Food Advisor used Annamaet Option which is the food for allergic dogs. He should have used Annamaet Ultra 32/20 which was around for years before Pro Plan was. It is a fact that every 30/20 type food only the market now is a copy of Annamaet Ultra which was actually developed at the University of Pennsylvania when the owner of Annamaet was a graduate student there. So your theory is incorrect. I ran into a senior guy at Purina several years ago who said quietly that he used Annamaet Ultra on his own dogs. If you really wanted to learn how dominant Dr. Tim's has become in sledding you should ask around.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

SpinRetriever said:


> Dog Food Advisor used Annamaet Option which is the food for allergic dogs. He should have used Annamaet Ultra 32/20 which was around for years before Pro Plan was. It is a fact that every 30/20 type food only the market now is a copy of Annamaet Ultra which was actually developed at the University of Pennsylvania when the owner of Annamaet was a graduate student there. So your theory is incorrect. I ran into a senior guy at Purina several years ago who said quietly that he used Annamaet Ultra on his own dogs. If you really wanted to learn how dominant Dr. Tim's has become in sledding you should ask around.


What exactly do I have wrong? My comments were about dogfoodadvisor's ratings.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

mitty said:


> He is qualified to write his blog, but he is not a scientist, and his ratings are disputable. His evaluations are based on his beliefs about the importance and appropriateness of specific ingredients in canine diets. His ratings are also influenced by assumptions he makes about the quantity of meat ingredients included in the feed, based on their place in the list. The ratings are formulaic, and they do not consider how well they actually promote the health of actual dogs. For example, he believes that meat derived protein sources are superior to those derived from plants, and he believes feeds containing meat by products are inferior to those that don't. Therefore feeds that contain meat by products or plant protein sources receive lower ratings, even if their contributions to the feed are small. I do not agree with his methods, but I am ok with his ratings because he has spelled out how he arrived at them; I can go from there to arrive at my own conclusions.
> 
> Some of the feeds that receive 4 or 5 stars are products you would never feed your dog because fat or protein levels are unacceptably low for canine athletes. The guaranteed analysis for Annamaet, for example, is just 24% protein and 13% fat, and it gets 4 stars. He concludes that it is a meat based formula. Eukanuba 30/20 that I agonized about in a previous post has a GA of 30% protein and 20% fat and gets 3.5 stars. He concludes that Euk 30/20 is a plant based food. I come to very different conclusions about how much meat these products likely contain and which is a better food for my dog from reading the same feed labels.
> 
> ...


i get what you are saying. the only question i have for you is you seem to have a problem with how he ranks by-products? do you not agree that chicken meal made from organs and carcasses *not* fit for human consumption are WORSE than chicken meal made from carcasses, body parts fit for human consumption? that is all he is saying. he is saying that foods like Eukanuba who use the parts that humans can't eat are rated worse than foods that use ingredients humans could eat. nutritionally they are the same but just quality of food ingredients is different. i would give a food that used human-grade ingredients a higher grade than a food that uses ingredients that was "not fit for human consumption". what makes them not fit for human consumption you ask? i stated earlier. offals (intestines) being in heat too long, birds delivered dead to factory (from who knows what?), organs that humans dont eat (lungs, spleen, kidneys)

the amount of meat in food that you say he "assumes" is not an asumption. the list of ingredients are in order by percentage they makeup that food. so if your foods first ingredient is corn most of your food is corn. if its chicken then most of your food is chicken. if it says chicken meal then most of your food is chicken meal. chicken by-product meal then most of your food is not fit for human consumption. 

as to the plant based comment. simply put unless it says grain free it will be plant based because it uses plants as a binder. for instance if your foods ingredient list (and amount they make up of that food) is: chicken (15%), chicken meal (10%), millet (5%), oatmeal (5%), sorghum (5%)barley (5%), corn (5%), wheat (3%), potatoes (2%), long list of vitamins (10%), long list of minerals (10%) long list of supplements (10%), long list of chemical additives (15%). then your food is 25% meat, 30% plants/grains, etc. thus it is plant based. EVEN though first 2 ingredients are meat the TOTAL plant ingredients out weight the meat ingredients.


as to the 4 and 5 star comments and lack of protein and fat. this guy isnt doing reviews for people who's pets need that much protein and fat. for the suburban house wife's yorkie she can go online and see that XYZ is 4 stars she doesn care about fat/protein like endurance sports/field trialers do. the ratings come from the ingredients or lack there of. i use his blog strictly for ingredient analysis


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

blake_mhoona said:


> i get what you are saying. the only question i have for you is you seem to have a problem with how he ranks by-products? *do you not agree that chicken meal made from organs and carcasses not fit for human consumption are WORSE than chicken meal made from carcasses,* body parts fit for human consumption? that is all he is saying. he is saying that foods like Eukanuba who use the parts that humans can't eat are rated worse than foods that use ingredients humans could eat. nutritionally they are the same but just quality of food ingredients is different. i would give a food that used human-grade ingredients a higher grade than a food that uses ingredients that was "not fit for human consumption". what makes them not fit for human consumption you ask? i stated earlier. offals (intestines) being in heat too long, birds delivered dead to factory (from who knows what?), organs that humans dont eat (lungs, spleen, kidneys)
> 
> the amount of meat in food that you say he "assumes" is not an asumption. the list of ingredients are in order by percentage they makeup that food. so if your foods first ingredient is corn most of your food is corn. if its chicken then most of your food is chicken. if it says chicken meal then most of your food is chicken meal. chicken by-product meal then most of your food is not fit for human consumption.
> 
> ...


My 2 cents..Question ....Why do all carnivorous ( meat eaters) eat the entrails first when they make a kill..? They eat the best parts first...don't they ? We need to look more at the animal than what the human thinks is good or less preferred to eat....Steve S


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

That's what I was thinking. Why focus on human consumption when a dog isn't a human. Sounds like marketing. 

NOW - tell me they put rabbit, deer, or goat poop in there and I know my dog likes that!


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## TonyLattuca (Jan 10, 2013)

All in all I think Pro Plan and eukunaba are so highly thought of is because they sponsor so many dog events. Even at my local feed store they have big signs and their products are the first shelf you go to.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

i never said they were human ingredients i said they weren't fit for human consumption. Chicken meal is stuff most humans wont eat (but could) that is boiled down to a meal. Chicken by-product meal is stuff most humans wont (and cant) eat that has gone bad. Examples: giblets not refrigerated immediately after slaughter, but stored for up to 24 hours in a hot offal trailer cannot be sold for human consumption. Yet they can still be legally used for making pet food. Likewise, dead-on-arrival animals or other condemned parts that have been declared inedible and unfit for human consumption can still be used for making pet food.

now if those giblets were stored correctly they would then become plain ole chicken meal and not by-product meal. or if they used fresh slaughtered carcas it would be meal instead of dead on arrival (from bugs, parasites, etc) carcas making it by-product meal


and do you know for a fact they eat the best part first? maybe they know that spoils first and eat it before it spoils? maybe they know its the smelliest and will attract more animals so they eat it first. maybe they know its more nutritious and will refuel them the fastest. i hate scallopped potatoes. if i absolutely have to eat them i eat them first so i can enjoy my meat and cover up that taste in my mouth


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I got adopted this example from a Hilary Watson article (http://www.hilarywatson.com/cereals.pdf). If you compare Recipe A vs Recipe B looking at the order of the ingredients with disregard to quantity of each per dogfoodadvisor.com, you would conclude that Recipe A has more meat. However Recipe B actually has more meat than Recipe A.

Recipe A:
150 Kg Poultry Meal
125 Kg Whole rice
125 Kg Whole corn
100 Kg Whole wheat
500 Kg Total

Recipe B

250 Kg Whole rice
200 Kg Poultry Meal
50 Kg Whole corn
0 Kg Whole wheat
500 Kg Total


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Feeding behavior of carnivores is actually known, they tend to go for the fatty organs first. Wolves pretty much eat everything, even the fur (see David Mechs book if you want to read about it). I've seen my own dogs disappear small rodents so fast, I think they must have swallowed them whole. 

While you may not want to eat some of the stuff that goes into by products, other human cultures are not so picky.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> i never said they were human ingredients i said they weren't fit for human consumption. Chicken meal is stuff most humans wont eat (but could) that is boiled down to a meal. Chicken by-product meal is stuff most humans wont (and cant) eat that has gone bad. Examples: giblets not refrigerated immediately after slaughter, but stored for up to 24 hours in a hot offal trailer cannot be sold for human consumption. Yet they can still be legally used for making pet food. Likewise, dead-on-arrival animals or other condemned parts that have been declared inedible and unfit for human consumption can still be used for making pet food.
> 
> now if those giblets were stored correctly they would then become plain ole chicken meal and not by-product meal. or if they used fresh slaughtered carcas it would be meal instead of dead on arrival (from bugs, parasites, etc) carcas making it by-product meal
> 
> ...


Can we assume that the dog food companies are doing what you are saying? Is there proof? I would really hate to think ProPlan is using diseased carcassas and what you mentioned in your note above!!No wonder I supplement feeding them then. JMO


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

mitty said:


> I got adopted this example from a Hilary Watson article (http://www.hilarywatson.com/cereals.pdf). If you compare Recipe A vs Recipe B looking at the order of the ingredients with disregard to quantity of each per dogfoodadvisor.com, you would conclude that Recipe A has more meat. However Recipe B actually has more meat than Recipe A.
> 
> Recipe A:
> 150 Kg Poultry Meal
> ...



no i wouldnt. i would say B has more meat but because of proportions though they'd both be plant based kibble. at the same time you'd have to look at protein levels of the cereals. say for example rice has 5 grams/kg of protein. and polutry meal 2 g/kg corn 1g/kg wheat 2g/kg. then recipe A would get more protein from meat (24%) where B would only get (23%). these are all ficticious numbers but this is what dogfoodadvisor takes into account. individual quantities of ingredients and their nutrition levels.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Well Steve as long as I've totally derailed your thread...

Has anyone tried these dishes (if you click on the picture it takes you to a website about some interesting human foods):


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> I got adopted this example from a Hilary Watson article (http://www.hilarywatson.com/cereals.pdf). If you compare Recipe A vs Recipe B looking at the order of the ingredients with disregard to quantity of each per dogfoodadvisor.com, you would conclude that Recipe A has more meat. However Recipe B actually has more meat than Recipe A.
> 
> Recipe A:
> 150 Kg Poultry Meal
> ...


Mitty her recipes are good. Very smart lady. I have her formula and her book (Complete and Balanced). Got it from the vet. Not sure if it is sold in the stores. Loads of recipes in the book for dogs of all ages.This makes great food for the dogs! They love it!*Just my dogs opinion*!


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

mitty said:


> Feeding behavior of carnivores is actually known, they tend to go for the fatty organs first. Wolves pretty much eat everything, even the fur (see David Mechs book if you want to read about it). I've seen my own dogs disappear small rodents so fast, I think they must have swallowed them whole.
> 
> While you may not want to eat some of the stuff that goes into by products, other human cultures are not so picky.



by product meals are those foods that have been left in heat or died before hand! meal are those foods that are taken care of! this is the point im trying to get acorss. by product meal and regular meal are exact same thing except one is taken care of properly


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> Well Steve as long as I've totally derailed your thread...
> 
> Has anyone tried these dishes (if you click on the picture it takes you to a website about some interesting human foods):


Gross bird's nest soup. Is the poop in it?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> no i wouldnt. i would say B has more meat but because of proportions though they'd both be plant based kibble. at the same time you'd have to look at protein levels of the cereals. say for example rice has 5 grams/kg of protein. and polutry meal 2 g/kg corn 1g/kg wheat 2g/kg. then recipe A would get more protein from meat (24%) where B would only get (23%). these are all ficticious numbers but this is what dogfoodadvisor takes into account. individual quantities of ingredients and their nutrition levels.


dogfoodadvisor doesn't have the quantities, he is only evaluating quality of food based on the order of ingredients The way I understand his rating system, he would assume that Recipe A has more meat than Recipe B, because meat is the first ingredient in A but the second ingredient in B. Recipe A looks like a better feed than B using this method. This is an example to illustrate how using ranking of ingredients in foods to assess quantity is merely that, an assumption. 

Like I said, I don't really have a problem with it. You've got to have some method, and this is the one he chose.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

great quote on his site

No dog food product can ever be magically better than the ingredients that were used to make it

heres the link to his rating system and you can read for yourself why Euk. got low marks and PP even lower

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/frequently-asked-questions/rate-dog-food/


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> by product meals are those foods that have been left in heat or died before hand! meal are those foods that are taken care of! this is the point im trying to get acorss. by product meal and regular meal are exact same thing except one is taken care of properly


Please expand your horizons by readings something in addition to dogfoodadvisor. I don't know much about meat by products, but here is another definition:

AAFCO Definition for Meat By-Products 
"Meat by-products is the non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto." (quoted from http://www.aplusflintriverranch.com/define-animal-byproducts.php?win=small)

AAFCO is Association of American Feed Control Officials. I was not able to access the AAFCO official publication.

These by products are not necessarily inferior protein products.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Mitty her recipes are good. Very smart lady. I have her formula and her book (Complete and Balanced). Got it from the vet. Not sure if it is sold in the stores. Loads of recipes in the book for dogs of all ages.This makes great food for the dogs! They love it!*Just my dogs opinion*!


I did not know she had a cookbook! She has some very nice articles about dog nutrition on hilarywatson.com.


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

mitty said:


> Excellent point! Free shipping!
> 
> So I was going to try some momentum for my skinny dog but it is out of stock every where. Ditto for the 30/20. (large bags anyhow)


Mr Chewy has Dr. Tim 30/20 avail---free shipping and no tax...Ordered my first bag. How long till you see a change in working ability/stamina?


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

blake_mhoona said:


> i never said they were human ingredients i said they weren't fit for human consumption. Chicken meal is stuff most humans wont eat (but could) that is boiled down to a meal. Chicken by-product meal is stuff most humans wont (and cant) eat that has gone bad. Examples: giblets not refrigerated immediately after slaughter, but stored for up to 24 hours in a hot offal trailer cannot be sold for human consumption. Yet they can still be legally used for making pet food. Likewise, dead-on-arrival animals or other condemned parts that have been declared inedible and unfit for human consumption can still be used for making pet food.
> 
> now if those giblets were stored correctly they would then become plain ole chicken meal and not by-product meal. or if they used fresh slaughtered carcas it would be meal instead of dead on arrival (from bugs, parasites, etc) carcas making it by-product meal
> 
> ...


That's all equally as irrelevant.


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## Julie Rihn (Mar 29, 2012)

I have a holistic pet food shop. Dr Tim's is top notch. Forget Eukanuba. They just had a recall.


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Can we assume that the dog food companies are doing what you are saying? Is there proof? I would really hate to think ProPlan is using diseased carcassas and what you mentioned in your note above!!No wonder I supplement feeding them then. JMO


 They in fact do. This is what happens. Chickens fail inspection at a USDA plant and they are separated and dyed red or covered in charcoal dust. The process is call denaturing. The law is that chicken cannot leave that plant unless it is dyed red. Then it goes to a place to be chopped up and dried. At that facility it is dyed a compensating color so it looks light brown again. Now there are some brands like Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, Orijen, Nature's Variety that only use chickens where the animal was deemed fit for human consumption. Clearly first quality breast and thigh meat is not going into dog food but the bird was fit for human consumption. Ask any pet food company and they will tell you what they denature with, dye or charcoal. In order to be exported to Europe, a vet must sign off attesting to the source of the protein and whether it came from an animal deemed fit for human consumption. All the names I mentioned export to Europe, so if you want to make sure your dog is getting a healthy source of protein only buy foods that are made in an EU Certified Plant. They are able to buy from non-USDA plants and this is what is scary, if the chicken is diseased and surely it is because that is why it is there in the first place, they are not required to denatured it, so it is never identified as diseased. I know raw feeders that buy chicken and turkey and you can easily see the red dye marks, they are like the red smoke ring when you smoke a pork butt.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

SpinRetriever said:


> They in fact do. This is what happens. Chickens fail inspection at a USDA plant and they are separated and dyed red or covered in charcoal dust. The process is call denaturing. The law is that chicken cannot leave that plant unless it is dyed red. Then it goes to a place to be chopped up and dried. At that facility it is dyed a compensating color so it looks light brown again. Now there are some brands like Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, Orijen, Nature's Variety that only use chickens where the animal was deemed fit for human consumption. Clearly first quality breast and thigh meat is not going into dog food but the bird was fit for human consumption. Ask any pet food company and they will tell you what they denature with, dye or charcoal. In order to be exported to Europe, a vet must sign off attesting to the source of the protein and whether it came from an animal deemed fit for human consumption. All the names I mentioned export to Europe, so if you want to make sure your dog is getting a healthy source of protein only buy foods that are made in an EU Certified Plant.


The stuff I was reading says that these dead animals end up in meat and poultry meals, not just by product meals. In other words, both chicken meal and chicken by product meal may be produced from these iffy sources. The rules I guess are published in the AAFCO Official Publication, which I don't have. It is hard to know what to believe.

Thanks for the heads up about the EU certification.


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

mitty said:


> The stuff I was reading says that these dead animals end up in meat and poultry meals, not just by product meals. In other words, both chicken meal and chicken by product meal may be produced from these iffy sources. The rules I guess are published in the AAFCO Official Publication, which I don't have. It is hard to know what to believe.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up about the EU certification.


 That is exactly correct. Chicken Meal may in fact be from an animal that failed USDA inspection.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

SpinRetriever said:


> That is exactly correct. Chicken Meal may in fact be from an animal that failed USDA inspection.


Well it is too bad b/c so many of us rely on Proplan. I for one have fed my old guy the food for 11 y. So far no problems but how does one know for sure it is not affecting your dog's health. It is also too bad Proplan and the other companies do not step up to the plate to counter and defend with truth and offer some reassurances to pet owners if this is actually the way things go or not!.JMO


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

It makes me laugh reading about the sanctity of food for animals that eat poop. Feed a good food that agrees with your dog. The end.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

After they process the bejesus out of anything to turn it into chicken meal etc. is it going to really matter if started out fresh?


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

kjrice said:


> It makes me laugh reading about the sanctity of food for animals that eat poop. Feed a good food that agrees with your dog. The end.


Fresh poop is better for them. Took my last dog as a pup out to the blind for a little Early Teal season. Figured we wouldn't see any young Wood Ducks or Boot lip hens so it would be a quiet introduction.

Met buddy who had everything set-up. Him famous for being regular - 6:30 am rain or shine. I got there about 6:45.

No illegal birds in site and Teal are a myth. Finally let Knothead get out, run around, and stretch his legs a bit. He came back around 15 minutes later and when he hopped into the blind I saw his muzzle covered in orange. I said "What the hell is that!?"

Buddy smiled and said: "Doritos".

I rep'd Science diet awhile back in the day. They had much of the same Human Consumption jargon. Be that as it may - I'd never feed over-the-counter Science Diet.


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Well it is too bad b/c so many of us rely on Proplan. I for one have fed my old guy the food for 11 y. So far no problems but how does one know for sure it is not affecting your dog's health. It is also too bad Proplan and the other companies do not step up to the plate to counter and defend with truth and offer some reassurances to pet owners if this is actually the way things go or not!.JMO


 You can call and asked these questions. Ask about ethoxyquin or bha/bht. The major companies will tell you some ingredients are preserved with these but they are not required to list them because it is put in by the producer of the ingredient and not them. No worry, a cancer causing preservative is safe they will say exactly that on the phone. What the state laws should require is disclosure on harmful ingredients whether they put them in the food or not and the labels should show the weight of each ingredient down to about 5% of weight as well the amount of animal protein and animal fat as a percentage of the total. That would be a good thing to do. Boy would the roof come off some of these companies.


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

Anymore input on 'Taste of the Wild'?


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

Dooley said:


> Anymore input on 'Taste of the Wild'?


 I used the duck formula for a time and thought it was a really good food. The thing that bothers is me is that Diamond makes it. You can't argue with the value though as well as how easy it is to find. Merrick & Nature's Variety make good higher protein foods too. Reason I bring it up is that they always seem to be on sale. Nature's Variety 42/20 is on sale for the same price as PPP where I live.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

SpinRetriever said:


> You can call and asked these questions. Ask about ethoxyquin or bha/bht. The major companies will tell you some ingredients are preserved with these but they are not required to list them because it is put in by the producer of the ingredient and not them. No worry, a cancer causing preservative is safe they will say exactly that on the phone. What the state laws should require is disclosure on harmful ingredients whether they put them in the food or not and the labels should show the weight of each ingredient down to about 5% of weight as well the amount of animal protein and animal fat as a percentage of the total. That would be a good thing to do. Boy would the roof come off some of these companies.


I'm not trying to argue that it is ok for dogs to eat food with this crap in it but don't they put the same alleged toxins in people food? BHA is a common preservative in cereals, for example. Is the BHA more dangerous for dogs than their humans? I know that part of your point is about labeling, but I just want to point out that this stuff in people food too. How scary is that?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Jerry and Freya said:


> Mr Chewy has Dr. Tim 30/20 avail---free shipping and no tax...Ordered my first bag. How long till you see a change in working ability/stamina?


About eight weeks. I asked this of a veterinary nutritionist from Cornell recently. I have ordered two bags of Dr. Tim's from Chewy. The service has been great so far!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

mitty said:


> I'm not trying to argue that it is ok for dogs to eat food with this crap in it but don't they put the same alleged toxins in people food? BHA is a common preservative in cereals, for example. Is the BHA more dangerous for dogs than their humans? I know that part of your point is about labeling, but I just want to point out that this stuff in people food too. How scary is that?


Umm...that's why I have quit eating this crap. Now if only I could find real food for my dogs that I could afford!


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> About eight weeks. I asked this of a veterinary nutritionist from Cornell recently. I have ordered two bags of Dr. Tim's from Chewy. The service has been great so far!


Any idea if the higher cost of Dr. Tims is equaled out by lower portions ,compared to other less expensive feed that require more per portion to maintain health/weight.


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> About eight weeks. I asked this of a veterinary nutritionist from Cornell recently. I have ordered two bags of Dr. Tim's from Chewy. The service has been great so far!


I have found that if I phone Mr. Chewy around 8 a.m. I will get my order the next day.
Keep in mind that Fed X does not deliver on Monday
And yes their service is super


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Jerry and Freya said:


> I have found that if I phone Mr. Chewy around 8 a.m. I will get my order the next day.
> Keep in mind that Fed X does not deliver on Monday
> And yes their service is super


It took three days to Chicago. And five days to Princeton Wisconsin. But you can reach a customer service person 24 hours per day. Sweet!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

shawninthesticks said:


> Any idea if the higher cost of Dr. Tims is equaled out by lower portions ,compared to other less expensive feed that require more per portion to maintain health/weight.


For the pursuit, which is the 30/20, For a 60 to 85 pound dog, They recommend 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 cups per day. This is similar to PPP and Euk, I believe. I am not totally switched over to Dr. Tim's It is still in process and I am already seeing formed stool. This is quite an improvement. I am trying to get rid of the excitement diarrhea. Diarrhea is just not good for a competitive dog because you lose a lot of the water that you need to maintain hydration. Hopefully I will know more in next couple of months. I am looking to increase my energy level, and still maintain a good coat as well. My vet said last night that he is very Interested to see how this food works with my dog.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> For the pursuit, which is the 30/20, For a 60 to 85 pound dog, They recommend 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 cups per day. This is similar to PPP and Euk, I believe. I am not totally switched over to Dr. Tim's It is still in process and I am already seeing formed stool. This is quite an improvement. I am trying to get rid of the excitement diarrhea. Diarrhea is just not good for a competitive dog because you lose a lot of the water that you need to maintain hydration. Hopefully I will know more in next couple of months. I am looking to increase my energy level, and still maintain a good coat as well. My vet said last night that he is very Interested to see how this food works with my dog.


I inquired Dr. Tim through FB this morning and they replied back within a couple minutes. They informed me that compared to PPP and other higher end feed that I will be feeding 20% less. I'm currently feeding Science Diet large breed puppy to the pup ,after some trial and error to find a feed that she digested well and had solid stools. 

Couple simple strokes on the calculator indicate that it is actually only $.01 per pound cheaper then Mr. Chewys prices. 

Mr. Chewys web site says they are temporarily out of stock on the large bags. Is this common or is it generally readily available? 

I really like the idea of switching to 1 food for all 3 of my dogs and also seems to be a better feed ( 14 year old ,3 and 6 months compared to 3 different types!


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> For the pursuit, which is the 30/20, For a 60 to 85 pound dog, They recommend 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 cups per day. This is similar to PPP and Euk, I believe. I am not totally switched over to Dr. Tim's It is still in process and I am already seeing formed stool. This is quite an improvement. I am trying to get rid of the excitement diarrhea. Diarrhea is just not good for a competitive dog because you lose a lot of the water that you need to maintain hydration. Hopefully I will know more in next couple of months. I am looking to increase my energy level, and still maintain a good coat as well. My vet said last night that he is very Interested to see how this food works with my dog.


I too am looking for an increase in energy level. Hope Dr. Tim does the job Stool is fine I feed my Golden 3 to 3 1/2 cups in total depending on what goes on during the day I live closer to their shipping point so perhaps that is why I get delivery the next day. In the dead of winter home delivery is wonderful to say the least


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

shawninthesticks said:


> I inquired Dr. Tim through FB this morning and they replied back within a couple minutes. They informed me that compared to PPP and other higher end feed that I will be feeding 20% less. I'm currently feeding Science Diet large breed puppy to the pup ,after some trial and error to find a feed that she digested well and had solid stools.
> 
> Couple simple strokes on the calculator indicate that it is actually only $.01 per pound cheaper then Mr. Chewys prices.
> 
> ...


Petflow has the 44 lb bags of Pursuit. Junie and Babe are both eating it right now.


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## highflyer82 (Aug 27, 2013)

shawninthesticks said:


> I inquired Dr. Tim through FB this morning and they replied back within a couple minutes. They informed me that compared to PPP and other higher end feed that I will be feeding 20% less. I'm currently feeding Science Diet large breed puppy to the pup ,after some trial and error to find a feed that she digested well and had solid stools.
> 
> Couple simple strokes on the calculator indicate that it is actually only $.01 per pound cheaper then Mr. Chewys prices.
> 
> ...


petflow.com 12 bucks off your first order too.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

mitty said:


> Can you give us the break down of dogs competing in, say, the recent National Amateur RFTC or the National Retriever Championship? How many eat Dr. Tim's vs Euk vs PP?


Can you believe someone actually sent me some of this type of data recently? Here is the data, provided to me by one of the companies present at the National Amateur.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Am I going to have to start adding food fed to the summary lists every National?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> Am I going to have to start adding food fed to the summary lists every National?


I was impressed someone was collecting the data!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I picked up a bag of Orijen a couple days ago. Not only am I now penniless, but I have ruined my dog's chances of getting to a National! :razz:


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I was impressed someone was collecting the data!


Actually, some of the data is based on assumption. I know people that have never been asked. I was never asked, and I believe the assumption is that just because my dogs are with a certain pro that they are all fed Purina pro plan performance.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Can you believe someone actually sent me some of this type of data recently? Here is the data, provided to me by one of the companies present at the National Amateur.


Let me guess was that company Purina? I know almost all the big boys feed proplan but I look at the ingredient list and I just cant go for it. Wonder just how much the big boys actually have to pay for their proplan.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I got the data from a contact at Avery Outdoors.

The data was apparently collected verbally prior to the start of the 2013 National AM in WI, as each handler came to get their picture taken and picked up their packet, goodie bag, or whatever they were handed. I wasn't there, but this is how it was described to me.


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Ol' Roy didn't even make the list!!!!!! Just switched back to Pro Plan from another on the list, I have missed Pro Plan and so have the boys and girls.

Good Eats Regards,

Aaron*


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I got the data from a contact at Avery Outdoors.
> 
> The data was apparently collected verbally prior to the start of the 2013 National AM in WI, as each handler came to get their picture taken and picked up their packet, goodie bag, or whatever they were handed. I wasn't there, but this is how it was described to me.


Is there a typo in the label for the 10th series? It says it is for 2012.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

mitty said:


> Is there a typo in the label for the 10th series? It says it is for 2012.


Probably. I just took a screen shot of the spreadsheet. I did zero editing.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

mitty said:


> I picked up a bag of Orijen a couple days ago. Not only am I now penniless, but I have ruined my dog's chances of getting to a National! :razz:


I wouldn't think so Renee! I noticed that all of the Purina products are at the top of the list. It's not even in alphabetical order. I am not criticizing Purina. It is a good food tolerated by most dogs. I even feed it to some of mine. . 

Dr. Tim's food Started as a sled dog food. Dr. Tim is actually a musher. There is only one food on the list is also considered a sled dog food by the mushers. That would be Caribou Creek. Red Paw is another but did not make the list. 

When you look at the life of the sled dog, they have to perform under brutal conditions For a long period of time. There is a major concern over nutrition, dehydration and diarrhea. Our dogs are primarily sprinters. They have different energy needs Both in terms of needing to maintain a certain energy level and the use of it 

My hunch is that when people were checking in at the national, a poll on dog food was the last thing on their mind.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

At the 2008 NFC they asked me what I fed right after the first series just before we had to pose for a picture. It was right in front of a big Purina banner.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Howard N said:


> At the 2008 NFC they asked me what I fed right after the first series just before we had to pose for a picture. It was right in front of a big Purina banner.


In 2011, I was never asked. It may have been assumed, but the assumption would have been incorrect. I guarantee it.


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