# Judges - What About Line Manners?



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

In the thread about stepping over the dog as the marks were being thrown, a number of posters took a position along the lines of "Don't worry about what's happening on the line, let performance in field dictate what happens" Stepping aside (reference intended) from the Gawthorpe hokey pokey - what do you think of the concept that judges should focus purely on the field and ignore what's happening on the line?

For me, when I started as a judge, I paid alot of attention to what happened on the line. In part, because the Rule Book is pretty clear about certain matters. In part, because it was closer and easier to observe. In part, because evaluating what is happening in the field is more difficult to do. Then, as I judged more, with more experienced people, I heard - and saw first hand the adage of "let performance in the field dictate what happens with the dog." But, over the past few years, I have been including line manners more in my evaluation of dog performance.

First, the Rule Book, addresses Line Manners in some detail.

Page 33, paragraph 24, in a Section entitled "Line Manners" states:



> When called to be tested, a dog should come tractably at heel and sit promptly at the point designated by his handler and remain quietly where placed until given further orders. Retrievers which bark or whine on line, in a blind or while retrieving, should be penalized. Loud and prolonged barking or whining is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake.


Similarly

“Loud and prolonged whining or barking” is a Serious Fault.
“Breaking” is a Serious Fault. (Note that at some point, creeping can become breaking, see page 
46 of the Rule Book - The Judges should agree in advance as to the extent of movement which shall be considered “creeping,’’ short of breaking, and whether working dogs so offending shall be ordered brought to heel before being sent to retrieve.”
“Moderate whining of short duration” is a Moderate Fault.
“Lack of attention” is a Minor Fault.
“Poor line manners” is a Minor Fault.
“Unsteadiness on line” is a Minor Fault.

If you are a proponent of the school that says "You don't get to pick which rules you want to follow as a judge" then how do you justify turning a blind eye to line manners.

Second, in the introduction to the section listing the various faults, the Rule Book (page 56) states:


Finally, the primary consideration of Judges in respect to the importance of faults listed here, as well as others which may occur, is to determine the extent to which any and all such infractions would detract from the full enjoyment of “an ordinary day’s shoot.’’

I don't enjoy an unruly, noisy dog. Do you?

Third, I think you get what you reward. If you don't reward the well mannered dog, and don't punish the poorly mannered dog, guess what you are more likely to see each weekend in the colors?

As for me, I think that it is possible - albeit, difficult - to have the total package: A stylish animal that marks well, runs good blinds, who is quiet on the line and still on the mat. That's the dog I want to reward with a placement.

Finally, I return to the Rule Book (which although difficult to navigate, is very comprehensive in its scope)

Page 26 (emphasis added)



> The function of a Non-Slip Retriever is to seek and retrieve "fallen'' game when ordered to do so. He should sit quietly on line or in the blind, walk at heel, or assume any station designated by his handler until sent to retrieve. When ordered, a dog should retrieve quickly and briskly without unduly disturbing too much ground, and should deliver tenderly to hand. He should then await further orders. Accurate marking is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple, and will take direction from his handler is of great value




Page 47 (emphasis added)



> Judging can never be precise; it is not an exact science, merely an art, and simply because there are so many shades of gray between black and white. At the risk of over-simplification, it might be stated that the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this.


In short, I think that if you are going to follow the Rule Book, you cannot focus solely on the field and ignore what happens on the line. 


Ted


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

This is an excellent topic for discussion.

In general, I agree with Ted.

I am at work and will weigh in this evening when I have enough time to respond.-Paul


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

On the issue of line matters the most disturbing is watching a tug of war between handler and dog to get bird. Judges turn a blind eye. I have seen several FC/AFC not dropped when they clearly were freezing or not giving up bird. Oh you can’t say freezing or you could get written up for unsportsman like behavior if you are a spectator watching the tug of war.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

I won't reward barking or excessive whining, creeping, or unruly behavior as that can become a hazard with the dog on honor. With your best effort, does your dog arrive at the mat before you, yes sometime mine does. Do i like it? No. It's not a perfect world.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Since I have studied under Jerry Patopea, who has some of the best line mannered dogs I have seen, I am also critical of unruly dogs on line. When judging, I always note noise, unsteadiness or other issues that are unpleasing. I do issue the instructions of handler on mat for marks, dog on mat for blinds. That way if a dog is unsteady, they will usually not mark very well as they creep out in front of the handler. I have and do factor line manners into my placements. This usually comes into play when two dogs are close to the same placement. One trial I judged, the blue ribbon went to a well mannered dog over a not so mannered dog. Also, I will ask a handler to re-heel his dog if it has crept out in front 10 or 15 feet. Similarly, I have asked handlers to return to the holding blind and come back WITH their dog.

My dream someday is to set up a test, where I put a mat on line and another marker like a ribbon a few feet away. The ribbon is the actual line. I think it would be quite amusing to watch handlers whose dogs have raced to the mat, try to get them off the mat and over to the ribbon!:lol:


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

In all honesty, i havent officially judged anything. Ive written the tests to be a NAHRA and CKC hunt test judge, but have not taken any assignments. Mainly due to my work schedule. However ive watched lots of events, field trials, hunt tests, and just random training sessions as well as spent time in the field hunting. And line manners for me is a big thing, and I always find myself noticing the unruley dogs and say to myself I wouldn't want to take that dog hunting. 

The dog can step on the marks and line the blinds, and thats great but if I think about having to sit next to a beast in the duck blind its a real turn off.


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

Unfortunately, many judges flat out ignore or give a pass to poor line manners when the dog is stylish and hammers the marks. I understand that the book says marking is of primary importance, but the same ink was used to print the following: 


> _When called to be tested, a dog should come tractably at heel and sit promptly at the point designated by his handler and remain quietly where placed until given further orders. Retrievers which bark or whine on line, in a blind or while retrieving, should be penalized. Loud and prolonged barking or whining is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake._


In a trial last year, a particular dog who is a well known natural marker, beat his handler to the mat in every series then circled his handler several times while whining loudly the entire time, took forever to finally sit down and when he did he was 2 feet ahead of the handler and bouncing to start and 6 feet out and on his feet when the judges called dog. Normally this dog impresses judges with his marking so they give him a pass on the rest of the rules. In this particular trial, the judges had seen enough after the water blind and did not call the dog back, despite a decent blind. When the handler asked the marshall to check with the judges, he was stunned to find that they dropped him for the dog being out of control and stated no other judges had ever had a problem with it. While I like the dog and the handler is a friend, I have to say it was about time someone actually enforced the rules. 

One of the judges from that trial has already commented on several of these recent threads and a big kudos to him for making the tough, but right call. I think in the long run, if we as judges choose to ignore parts of the rulebook, we effectively condone bad behaviors and do a disservice to both participants and the game.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Dan Wegner said:


> Unfortunately, many judges flat out ignore or give a pass to poor line manners when the dog is stylish and hammers the marks. I understand that the book says marking is of primary importance, but the same ink was used to print the following:
> 
> 
> In a trial last year, a particular dog who is a well known natural marker, beat his handler to the mat in every series then circled his handler several times while whining loudly the entire time, took forever to finally sit down and when he did he was 2 feet ahead of the handler and bouncing to start and 6 feet out and on his feet when the judges called dog. Normally this dog impresses judges with his marking so they give him a pass on the rest of the rules. In this particular trial, the judges had seen enough after the water blind and did not call the dog back, despite a decent blind. When the handler asked the marshall to check with the judges, he was stunned to find that they dropped him for the dog being out of control and stated no other judges had ever had a problem with it. While I like the dog and the handler is a friend, I have to say it was about time someone actually enforced the rules.
> ...


There is an easy solution to this judging conundrum that rewards those with good line manners and penalizes those with poor line manners. A modified walk up where each dog is given the same amount of time from the holding blind to calling for the birds.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Most judges don’t give a rip about line manners. I see dogs at trials act like an ass and raise hell on the line and it draws no attention at all. They get judged no differently st all


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## Northern Neck VA (Dec 1, 2016)

As far as line manners go, I ask myself "Would I want to hunt with that dog?"

NNK


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Well Ted a recently deceased buddy of mine judged a NFC Lardy trained/handled dog run by hia mistress. The dog was allowed by previous judges to leave the holding blind NOT at heel and be prancing at the line waiting for his handler. This trial, ist series,he told her , thank you are both excused. 

So later, he said he was tired of special rules for some and none for others.He was going tp follow the rules. He dd and viewers were shocked he did.


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

EdA said:


> There is an easy solution to this judging conundrum that rewards those with good line manners and penalizes those with poor line manners. A modified walk up where each dog is given the same amount of time from the holding blind to calling for the birds.


I used to see walk-ups back when I ran Hunt Tests, but can't say I've seen one in a field trial. Do you see them very often Dr. Ed? 

Would certainly add a new twist to things. No intensive lining or pointing out guns, just find out who can actually mark on their own.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Dan Wegner said:


> I used to see walk-ups back when I ran Hunt Tests, but can't say I've seen one in a field trial. Do you see them very often Dr. Ed?
> 
> Would certainly add a new twist to things. No intensive lining or pointing out guns, just find out who can actually mark on their own.


Last Walk up I saw in a FT was in the Natl Am in Sun Valley. 1995.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Dan Wegner said:


> I used to see walk-ups back when I ran Hunt Tests, but can't say I've seen one in a field trial. Do you see them very often Dr. Ed?
> 
> Would certainly add a new twist to things. No intensive lining or pointing out guns, just find out who can actually mark on their own.


I have done a couple and will do more. Judy always does them when she judges. One of my training partners did one in the Amateur a couple of weeks ago which got a few panties in a wad. It’s important to put the holding blind directly behind the line and give everyone the exact same amount of time from holding blind to line otherwise some will come out of the blind, have the dog sit, and identify the guns.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Last Walk up I saw in a FT was in the Natl Am in Sun Valley. 1995.


We had one this winter in Niland. Didn't do much to anyone. Birds weren't easy to pick out either.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The first Open I ever ran was a quad and a walk-up, timed from the hand off of the last bird brought in to the judges from the previous dog. No instructions were given other than are you ready when the previous dog was coming back. After watching about 10 dogs I figured it out and it was a pretty short count til when the guns went off. Brought my dog up to line and just cued him long a few times and the guns went off. I think there were 2 short flyers also. Most of the dogs weren't even up to the line or bouncing around and never saw the long retired which was across a creek. One flyer was still alive but that just jacked him up. He did it, and I was so excited that I delivered the bird to the guy in the holding blind (Herb Parker?) instead of the judges which screwed up their count and he sure looked confused LOL. It was in the 90's and I think that test is illegal now.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Last Walk up I saw in a FT was in the Natl Am in Sun Valley. 1995.


They did one at NARC in 2013, judges were Shih, Yelton, and Wilson


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

When there is a premium on time with a very large entry giving every dog 10-15 seconds when some would take 30-45 seconds can be the difference in finishing the first series in one day.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Good for them 2013 NARC. Missed that one.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> When there is a premium on time with a very large entry giving every dog 10-15 seconds when some would take 30-45 seconds can be the difference in finishing the first series in one day.


My memory could be foggy... I was young and it was my first National. But I seem to remember the instructions being the birds were going to be shot when your dog reached the line whether you were there or not. We were allowed a whistle sit or verbal sit. The walk from the holding blind to the line seemed just a tad longer than normal. Maybe it was just my nerves... it all worked out. (95 NARC) cant remember what series it was.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

huntinman said:


> My memory could be foggy... I was young and it was my first National. But I seem to remember the instructions being the birds were going to be shot when your dog reached the line whether you were there or not. We were allowed a whistle sit or verbal sit. The walk from the holding blind to the line seemed just a tad longer than normal. Maybe it was just my nerves... it all worked out. (95 NARC) cant remember what series it was.


Here is the way I think it should be done. The holding blind is but a few steps from the line which should be identified by an area not a door mat. Each dog receives a count of 10 +\- after leaving the holding blind, when that count is reached the judge announces that he/she is calling for the birds. This all assumes of course that “the guns are conspicuous and easily identified” not under the drip line of a tree at 450 yards.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Are remote sits illegal in ft's? 

That is you sit your dog at point A while you stand behind a holding blind or some other location, away from the dog....


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

huntinman said:


> My memory could be foggy... I was young and it was my first National. But I seem to remember the instructions being the birds were going to be shot when your dog reached the line whether you were there or not. We were allowed a whistle sit or verbal sit. The walk from the holding blind to the line seemed just a tad longer than normal. Maybe it was just my nerves... it all worked out. (95 NARC) cant remember what series it was.


It was the 1st series, 93? dogs, double & blind, wrapped up that day. Just a beautiful spot!

The rule book gives very good instructions as Ted points out, all that needs to happen is that 
they be followed. 

I always made a point of discussing this with my co-judge on Thursday, here's what we usually 
came up with. The dog will be sent from the position it assumes after the last bird is down. If 
that's not at your side that's your issue. We as judges, were not there to allow you to continue 
a training exercise, we were there to judge the product of your training & log that information 
accordingly. It's not hard to set a test that does not reward bad line manners & the result is 
they usually go home early. Those people who follow the rules need their just reward. 

Cosmo & Grady's Shady Lady, Regards!!!!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

At the 2013 NARC, for series 1/2, 

1. Holding blind only a few steps from mat.
2. We started timing as soon as dog left the blind.
3. We gave handlers 20 seconds (?) from leaving blind to call for birds
4. If time was running out, we said “we are about to call for the birds”
5. I think we had a little less than 120 dogs and finished around 8 pm

Ted


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I think line manners are important and need to be judged.

The rule book is really clear on line manners, and Major, Moderate and Minor faults are well defined. The moderate and minor faults require judging consistent to the entire field, week in and week out. The major faults leave no room for interpretation by the judges, so are generally not an issue for the judges to consider.

I make note of questionable or poor line manners and discuss them with my co-judge when we are finished and assigning placements. If we see the same minor faults repeated, series after series, It may make a difference. The first consideration, of course, is the dog's work in the field, but the entire performance HAS to be considered. Moderate faults carry more weight and can affect placements much quicker.

Generally, line manners as a whole are pretty good, especially among the dogs which finish the trial. It's hard to do well with a dog that is acting up and self employed.-Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Are remote sits illegal in ft's?
> 
> That is you sit your dog at point A while you stand behind a holding blind or some other location, away from the dog....


Not illegal, but if you wanted to be a 'famous' FT judge, that would certainly be one way to do it...

We see them once in a while on blinds. I don't like them. There's plenty of other ways to build difficulty into a blind. -Paul


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

paul young said:


> Not illegal, but if you wanted to be a 'famous' FT judge, that would certainly be one way to do it...
> 
> We see them once in a while on blinds. I don't like them. There's plenty of other ways to build difficulty into a blind. -Paul


How do you run a blind from a remote sit? How do get the dog to focus on something?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Dave Farrar said:


> How do you run a blind from a remote sit? How do get the dog to focus on something?


The dog would sit facing the handler, and the handler would give a cast to begin the blind.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

paul young said:


> Not illegal, but if you wanted to be a 'famous' FT judge, that would certainly be one way to do it...
> 
> We see them once in a while on blinds. I don't like them. There's plenty of other ways to build difficulty into a blind. -Paul



Oh I am certain any judge who did a remote sit on the marks would forever go down in the anals of history. Hahaha.. thats why I was wondering if it was even legal  I guess we have more fun in hunt tests 

Remote sends on blinds I have heard of.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Speaking from the HT point of view, the rules are essentially the same as FTs. Yet many judges are reluctant to enforce all of the rules all of the time. It's not fun to drop a piggy dog for lack of style, or a good marker for dropping the bird at his handler's feet (repeatedly) or barking and lunging ahead on a walkup or repeatedly creeping. Those faults that appear in the first series rarely improve over the weekend. And I think we do a disservice to the dog and handler as well as our sport for rewarding those faults. Rewarding bad behavior just encourages more of it.


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

We breed these dogs with great marking in mind -often great desire comes along with great marking and these are not sedate types that walk slowly then leave the line with all the speed and desire that we like to see. We ask these wonderful animals to do some amazing things in the field so minor behavioral lapses at the line are overlooked in general because they usually manifest and take care of themselves in detrimental effects in the field especially in younger dogs and most seasoned field trial dogs improve with age. Excessive creeping, verbalizing, sticking are noted and if continued could result in dropping the dog or certainly affect placements. I don’t know what dog Dan was referring to unless he changed the gender but I judged a dog that we all know that not only beats the handler to the mat but the handler doesn’t even join the dog on the mat but calls for the birds about 10 feet behind the dog all the while the dog is constantly dancing and to my eye didn’t see any of the birds and when released absolutely lazered every mark in the right order and had the best marks in a 75 dog Open but was dropped in the land blind but it was one of the most memorable set of marks in a large quad I’ve ever seen. Again poor line manners usually manifest themselves in other ways to eventually eleminate the dog.This is an extreme scenario but in general I’m not going to drop dogs for minor line manner lapses.


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

As a Judge who has dropped dogs for excessive noise, this is an area where many judges differ. I have seen field champions that have line manners and noise problems that can't pass what the rules call for. When you follow the rules and drop a dog for the violations, you are not very well thought of. I hear the same story, it wasn't a problem with other judges.

I have trained with a dog that was an FC-AFC that clearly couldn't place under me. The dog was noisy even on blinds. He made no attempt in training to prevent it. 

On blinds I frequently do a dry pop,where I tell the handlers the pop goes off when the dog or the handler hit the mat first.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I'd like to ask a question that I feel I already have an opinion on that in turn shapes my thoughts on line manners at FTs. 

Are FTs designed to evaluate a "gun dog"? 

My opinion is no they are not. 

Can FCs and AFCs be amazing gun dogs?? 

Well of course! There are several that probably are. 

However, I believe the current FT competitions and in many cases HTs are not good evaluations of a hunting dog. Line manners in my opinion are of great importance and absolutely needed in a hunting dog but not so much in a FT competitor that doesn't hunt. 

Therefore, I place less importance on line manners in a FT than I would in a HT. 

The rules as they are written now seem to be pretty clear though. 

I think it could be used as a "tie breaker" of sorts. 

Now don't misunderstand me...I believe FTs to be at the very top of difficulty and have a ton of admiration for these dogs. I just believe we need to stop kidding ourselves that these trials are to evaluate and award the best gun/hunting dog...


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Bryan Parks said:


> I'd like to ask a question that I feel I already have an opinion on that in turn shapes my thoughts on line manners at FTs.
> 
> Are FTs designed to evaluate a "gun dog"?
> 
> ...


When you've trained any dog with a title in front of their name, hunted with it, 
& watched that dog perform in the field you may sing a different tune


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## taeicher (Jun 25, 2017)

Kudos to the judges that are enforcing the rule book on line manners and to Ted for starting the ongoing "continuing education series" on judging.

To the judging community I would point out that your decisions at events are having an impact well beyond who gets a ribbon and what color. You are in effect deciding who gets bred. I quickly looked at hunting lab pedigree advertised litters; ~ 90 sired by FT Champions and in a bunch of the others the breeder was bragging that the sire or dam was a son or daughter of FT Champion X. These pups aren't just going to other FT competitors, they are being purchased by individuals like me who hunt. I don't know the history of Field Trials and what the founders original intent was or what you who have been involved with the sport your whole life think, but I would hope that one of the outcomes would be identifying individuals that should be bred, thereby improving the overall breed.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

We should be, and in most cases are, producing dogs that have high achievement potential in the field whatever the activity but are also good companions. Dogs with poor line manners are not good companions but the good news is that poor line manners are generally a result of inadequate or poor training. To suggest, as a previous poster did, that line manners in competitive dogs is less important than in hunting companions fails to see the big picture. And notwithstanding dogs with poor line manners are much more difficult to run and much less pleasurable to own.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Totally agree with Ed
I believe that in many cases bad line manners are taught/tolerated by handlers trying to push their dogs too fast to be the next super young dog. Really no excuse for bad line manners. I have seen just as many dogs with inadequate line manners in hunt tests as in field trials. Maybe even more so. I think HRC does a disservice to handlers and dogs, requiring a "Finished level" of control in weekend test, but at the Grand they better be perfect. Why have two standards?? Perhaps they can hand out more ribbons and keep more people playing? I do think that for the lower tests, but Finished is to be a finished hunting dog. I see handlers repeatedly saying sit, sit, sit, as the dog is bouncing around when the birds go down. At my first HRC test I was amazed at the level handlers could talk to their dogs. I can understand soft commands, especially to help move with the gun, but couldn't more than one SIT command be judged about the same as a controlled break??
Perhaps once the gallery STOPS ooing and aweing over these dogs that have no line manners, but they sure tear grass when released. For me, I am NOT impressed by the drive when there is no control. I have competed in hunt tests, field trials and we hunt as much as possible. The extreme skills we have acquired from field trial training have been a big asset in hunting situations. There have been more than a couple times my field trial trained dog was needed to make a retrieve that other dogs could not do. Just this past year, I hunted with a bunch of very experienced waterfowlers, and the compliments for my dog and her sister (owned by my hunting buddy), gave us enough contentment to last a long time. Good enough for me.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Ken Barton said:


> We breed these dogs with great marking in mind -often great desire comes along with great marking and these are not sedate types that walk slowly then leave the line with all the speed and desire that we like to see. We ask these wonderful animals to do some amazing things in the field so minor behavioral lapses at the line are overlooked in general because they usually manifest and take care of themselves in detrimental effects in the field especially in younger dogs and most seasoned field trial dogs improve with age. Excessive creeping, verbalizing, sticking are noted and if continued could result in dropping the dog or certainly affect placements. I don’t know what dog Dan was referring to unless he changed the gender but I judged a dog that we all know that not only beats the handler to the mat but the handler doesn’t even join the dog on the mat but calls for the birds about 10 feet behind the dog all the while the dog is constantly dancing and to my eye didn’t see any of the birds and when released absolutely lazered every mark in the right order and had the best marks in a 75 dog Open but was dropped in the land blind but it was one of the most memorable set of marks in a large quad I’ve ever seen. Again poor line manners usually manifest themselves in other ways to eventually eleminate the dog.This is an extreme scenario but in general I’m not going to drop dogs for minor line manner lapses.



I'm with you Ken


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Poor line manners are *NOT* style!!!!!!!!!!- Paul


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Barton said:


> We breed these dogs with great marking in mind -often great desire comes along with great marking and these are not sedate types that walk slowly then leave the line with all the speed and desire that we like to see. We ask these wonderful animals to do some amazing things in the field so minor behavioral lapses at the line are overlooked in general because they usually manifest and take care of themselves in detrimental effects in the field especially in younger dogs and most seasoned field trial dogs improve with age. Excessive creeping, verbalizing, sticking are noted and if continued could result in dropping the dog or certainly affect placements. I don’t know what dog Dan was referring to unless he changed the gender but I judged a dog that we all know that not only beats the handler to the mat but the handler doesn’t even join the dog on the mat but calls for the birds about 10 feet behind the dog all the while the dog is constantly dancing and to my eye didn’t see any of the birds and when released absolutely lazered every mark in the right order and had the best marks in a 75 dog Open but was dropped in the land blind but it was one of the most memorable set of marks in a large quad I’ve ever seen. Again poor line manners usually manifest themselves in other ways to eventually eleminate the dog.This is an extreme scenario but in general I’m not going to drop dogs for minor line manner lapses.



Ken 

On this we disagree. Although there are plenty of judges that share your sentiments

Ted


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

paul young said:


> Poor line manners are *NOT* style!!!!!!!!!!- Paul


Absolutely and exceptional performance and style in the field and behavior on line are not mutually exclusive.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to ask a question that I feel I already have an opinion on that in turn shapes my thoughts on line manners at FTs.
> ...


While I have trained a dog with a title in front of its name I'll agree that I don't have a ton of experience. 

The facts are facts however, and line manners are to a degree inherited traits in a dog. 

What about a FT is anything like a hunt except that birds are used? 

If you were evaluating a hunting dog that you'd like to hunt with would you except noise and major creeping? 

It's very easy to see that FTs have morphed into something that has little to do with hunting even for a novice like myself. 

I don't mean to ruffle feathers as I knew my post might. I again will reiterate that I believe FT dog to be some of the most talented dogs that there is. It's just that a dog can be very talented in the FT arena and not make a great gun dog. 

If you want to start making FTs about evaluating and finding the best gun dog quit letting noisy dogs with terrible line manners do well and the same can be said for HTs..JM uneducated opinion.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bryan 

My response to your question is rather simple. 

We have a Rule Book. The Rule Book sets certain standards for evaluation. The standards (listed earlier in this thread) include obedience and line manners. 

Ted


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan, with all due respect to say that line manners are inherited is to say that insolent behavior in children is inherited, it is only inherited to the extent that the parents allow it.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> Bryan
> 
> My response to your question is rather simple.
> 
> ...


Is it your opinion that the rules in the rule book are being followed and judged appropriately?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

EdA said:


> Bryan, with all due respect to say that line manners are inherited is to say that insolent behavior in children is inherited, it is only inherited to the extent that the parents allow it.


You recently made a statement in another thread that you had a dog that might not be the best for the average guy/trainer. Not sure of your exact comment but something to that extent. 

Are those traits not inherited? Is it not common knowledge or easy to see that some lines have more issues than others when in comes to line manners and other undesirable behaviors ?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> Is it your opinion that the rules in the rule book are being followed and judged appropriately?


f

If you have read this thread, my opinion should be obvious.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > Is it your opinion that the rules in the rule book are being followed and judged appropriately?
> ...


I agree with you


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

I have seen a few "Field Trial" dogs that had bad line manners, broke, and mouthed birds but did none of that while hunting.


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## brolling (Apr 17, 2013)

My Field Champion is my gundog, he hunt waterfowl and upland. Line manners are man-made not inherited. Line manners is lack of training and not holding to a high standard. All the marking ability starts on the mat, if your dog can't sit and watch birds go down they will not reach their full marking potential. My Ft dog's mother was a monster and he certainly showed he had the desire to be self-employed as well, but if that desire went unchecked the letters in front of his name would have taken a lot longer if ever. People misread dogs being high drive vs disobedience in my opinion.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> You recently made a statement in another thread that you had a dog that might not be the best for the average guy/trainer. Not sure of your exact comment but something to that extent.
> 
> Are those traits not inherited? Is it not common knowledge or easy to see that some lines have more issues than others when in comes to line manners and other undesirable behaviors ?


Retrieving desire is inherited, controlling behaviors that might emanate from that is training, so I would concede that the tendency to have bad line manners may be inherited but bad line manners are a result of permissive activity by trainers. Roger might not see a field trial until he is 3 or older but he will not have bad line manners because that behavior will never have been allowed to develop.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I hope my comments aren't being interpreted as FT dogs can't be and aren't good hunting dogs. 

I have a 7 month old high FT bred dog right now that is a joy to have around the house. High drive but really wants to please and has been very easy to control in Training and around the house. 

Now in a crowd of new people she goes nuts wanting to socialize and meet everyone but we are working on it. 

I'll concede that a bad line manners are in large part a product of bad Training.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Bad line manners are entirely the consequence of incomplete or improper training.

If a dog has poor line manners only at tests or trials and not in training it is STILL the consequence of incomplete training.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

There are some dogs who are terrible on line regardless of training.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> There are some dogs who are terrible on line regardless of training.


Yep... just washed out a very talented bitch. Tried anything and everything... she just glazed over at trials. Her desire to retrieve overruled her desire to please in a major way. More that any dog I had ever been around. I finally admitted defeat. I gravitate towards calm dogs and she was giving me high(er) blood pressure!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Enjoyed reading all the posts on this subject.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

polmIAE #56 perhaps ypu can explain to us why your dogs in the multiples are so well behaved?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

swliszka said:


> polmIAE #56 perhaps ypu can explain to us why your dogs in the multiples are so well behaved?


You reap what you sow .
It's very rarely the breeding !
You can fire charge a donkey from an Ass if you nurture it . Them Agility and flyball dogs are great to watch.
'Calm' is hard to teach,when all you want is Go. Go is hard to teach when all you want is No !.
Our game is different but very similar ! ..Just a different game of rules . 
Very interesting on the comments and many thanks to the OP for posting the thread .


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Yep... just washed out a very talented bitch. Tried anything and everything... she just glazed over at trials. Her desire to retrieve overruled her desire to please in a major way. More that any dog I had ever been around. I finally admitted defeat. I gravitate towards calm dogs and she was giving me high(er) blood pressure!


Bill makes a good observation here that can contribute to the problem. The desire to please. Or biddability or teamwork. The dog with lower levels of these, make training that much harder. Not all dogs are self employed because of poor training. Pick the right puppy.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

A friend once mused that perhaps breeding, when done by excellent trainers, does not rule out dogs that are difficult to train. Excellent trainers are capable of addressing the issues and turning challenge into a great and successful dog, where average trainers would wash the dog out. That's good for the training business, but is it affecting selective breeding. As a person who trains (other breeds more than labs) and also breeds occasional litters, I would argue back that a good BREEDER wisely chooses and rarely selects the hard to train dogs unless their other skills are so amazing as to warrant some type of exception.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

mountaindogs said:


> A friend once mused that perhaps breeding, when done by excellent trainers, does not rule out dogs that are difficult to train. Excellent trainers are capable of addressing the issues and turning challenge into a great and successful dog, where average trainers would wash the dog out. That's good for the training business, but is it affecting selective breeding. As a person who trains (other breeds more than labs) and also breeds occasional litters, I would argue back that a good BREEDER wisely choses and rarely selects the hard to train dogs unless their other skills are so amazing as to warrant some type of exception.


Laurie 

1. I don't think that you can win consistently at the highest levels without a compliant, problem solving dog. 
2. I don't think that I am alone in looking for that dog that marks well, is a team player and is a good problem solver.
3. Most pros do not want a dog that is "difficult to train." That type of dog requires extra attention - and time. That attention and time detracts from the training that the other dogs receive. Sometimes the "difficult" dogs receive that extra attention, sometimes they are ignored or washed out.

The point is, I think that breeding is leaning - as a general matter - towards the compliant dog.

Ted


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

mountaindogs said:


> A friend once mused that perhaps breeding, when done by excellent trainers, does not rule out dogs that are difficult to train. Excellent trainers are capable of addressing the issues and turning challenge into a great and successful dog, where average trainers would wash the dog out. That's good for the training business, but is it affecting selective breeding. As a person who trains (other breeds more than labs) and also breeds occasional litters, I would argue back that a good BREEDER wisely chooses and rarely selects the hard to train dogs unless their other skills are so amazing as to warrant some type of exception.


Yes. And a good breeder knows the litter and guides the purchaser to a dog that has the traits that Ted talked about. The problem? Look at the threads here that talk about picking puppies. How many come in and just pick one based on some 'feeling' or thing the puppy does? How many breeders let them? That doesn't necessarily make for the best working dog. You bet your a$$ with the litters I have I know exactly which pups will not make good working dogs. Do some of those compete in some venue? Yes. Are they harder to train and take more time? Yes. Personally, I don't want to work that hard. I hedge my bets and watch each litter carefully and choose the one that's going to be the best combo of all. 

It would be great if you could get whole litters of biddable dogs that are team players that are awesome markers, healers, weavers, etc. Those that have been breeding for 30+ years will tell you they get good consistency. But I think they'll also tell you that they're all not made to be FT/MH/OTCH etc. 

Anyway, that's my contribution to this excellent thread. Genetics/breeding plays a part. We all don't choose the best partner. FWIW.

Sue


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

If breeders could observe the studs, that would go a long way towards choosing compliant dogs. If you are going to choose the flavor of the month in order to sell pups. you have less control. Line manner problems have a genetic component but mostly it goes to training. Don't be afraid to go out of the box for a stud, especially if he produces the same.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> If breeders could observe the studs, that would go a long way towards choosing compliant dogs. If you are going to choose the flavor of the month in order to sell pups. you have less control. Line manner problems have a genetic component but mostly it goes to training. Don't be afraid to go out of the box for a stud, especially if he produces the same.


Maxx and Cosmo have been bred excessively and significantly more than almost any other dogs and I suspect that fewer than 10% of people who have bred bitches to either of them ever saw either once, much less multiple times to make their own assessment.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Maxx and Cosmo have been bred excessively and significantly more than almost any other dogs and I suspect that fewer than 10% of people who have bred bitches to either of them ever saw either once, much less multiple times to make their own assessment.


Nor have most who bought the results of those breedings or prognosticate about them on this forum!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

These are fantastic threads. Thank you so much to all.

I have a question that arises from reply #5 where the writer states

_I will ask a handler to re-heel his dog if it has crept out in front 10 or 15 feet._ 

I understand the Rule Book does not provide metrics. It uses qualitative language "tractable", "biddable", "pleasing", "promptly". But 10 to 15 feet was a distance that surprised me somewhat. In training... it seems like allowing a creep of 10 to 15 inches (centimeters?) would be a major fail. 

I'm wondering (1) are FT judges more permissive in this regard than HT judges? And (2) if there was a little more standardization in the rules, might line manners improve?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

1tulip said:


> These are fantastic threads. Thank you so much to all.
> 
> I have a question that arises from reply #5 where the writer states
> 
> ...


I think most FT judges state up front "handler on the mat for marks", and believe that a dog out in front of the handler is only hurting himself. Dogs creeping that far out is rare, dogs creeping a foot or two is more common. This is one of those things the two judges talk about on Thursday, how they feel personally about creeping and what line to enforce?

As a judge I notice that most pros reheel their dog for the slightest creep whether or not we ask them to, most amateurs don't enforce their own discipline which hurts the dog in the long run. To answer your question, 10'-15' is a pretty common creep line in most field trials, though equally common, I have seen judges enforce a "some part of the dog needs to be touching the mat" in order to send.

As I said upfront, extreme creeping is relatively uncommon in field trial. Marking test are so hard, it behooves the handler/trainer to ensure his dog is a team player on line, as without subtle help from the handler and a laser focus on each and every bird, chances are slim on the dog being successful in the field.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

It seems everything is videoed nowadays. Looks like it would be much easier to see future studs run. I saw videos of Pirate and Cha Cha run in trials/tests before I made a decision on Rowdy.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> It seems everything is videoed nowadays. Looks like it would be much easier to see future studs run. I saw videos of Pirate and Cha Cha run in trials/tests before I made a decision on Rowdy.



But, what do you do about the Jekyll and Hyde dogs that are one way on game day and completely the opposite in training?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

EdA said:


> Maxx and Cosmo have been bred excessively and significantly more than almost any other dogs and I suspect that fewer than 10% of people who have bred bitches to either of them ever saw either once, much less multiple times to make their own assessment.





I think picking a stud is about the same as picking an FC out of a litter of 7 week old pups.
I'm quoting Ed here cuz he directly mentions Cosmo. I never saw Cosmo run but sure wish I had. From the stories I have heard I would have never bred to him had I watched him run. In my opinion I think it would be a sad thing if he had not been bred. I don't know the statistics but would be interesting to know how much he was bred when he was still active compared to recent years. As I was getting started in this game I don't remember any Cosmo litters but in the last few years there has been a bunch. Point is I think he has been bred to recently BECAUSE people haven't seen him run. I personally have raised or trained 4 Cosmo offspring and two or three grand offspring and have love them all. I see a lot of the same traits in pups even out of different bitches. I now have 4 Cosmo offspring from the same litter that are around 5 mo old and like them all. 
My 4 yr old is the most compliant dog I have ever worked with. He is full of drive but tries very hard to do things my way. Not stubborn or hard headed at all even has a soft side which is a trait I have seen in most of them. As pets in the house they are as good as any but a beast in the field. From my experience with Cosmo offspring I have to wonder why Cosmo was the way he was. I love his puppies.
On the other side of the coin Wayne mentioned Pirate. I have seen him run but only once and going by that first impression I would never breed to him. Not saying he isn't a nice dog or produce nice puppies I just wasn't at all impressed. Moral of the story is it is VERY hard to pick a stud that will nick well with any bitch. If it were that simple there would be a lot more FC's running around.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ted, I discussed the sire and dam with the owners and trainers. Plus you can get videos of training too.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> But, what do you do about the Jekyll and Hyde dogs that are one way on game day and completely the opposite in training?





My 4yr old Cosmo son is this way as I have mentioned to you. I don't like it but fortunately the best part of him comes out on game day rather than the other way around. I must admit that I think I have created this. He was my first Cosmo pup to train and all I had to go by was that Cosmo reputation and I was afraid of it. I'm not heavy handed with dogs at all but I think I was a little hard on him at times coming up just because of the that reputation and he remembers well. As I said in my other post He tries hard to do it my way and at times in training he is afraid of making a mistake. He is more free at a trial and he knows it and does much better than in training. Just part of that never ending learning from experience as a trainer. Kind of hard to admit your mistakes and it sucks to make them but we all do. It's not necessarily a bad thing as long as you recognize and learn from it.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Ted, I discussed the sire and dam with the owners and trainers. Plus you can get videos of training too.


I can make a video of a washout look like the second coming of Lean Mac...


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

There many posters here who have made excellent posts BUT let me add some additional thoughts. How well do you know your own genetics? Look at your siblings as a start. Comparisons? Look at your off-spring. How well do your connections measure up? Polmaise and I had early applications of matching breeding to performance thru our racing pigeons. We could get an approximate rendering of breeding over three years, Science has found out that clones altho similar can not duplicate the original. Read the literature. A stud and bitch do not duplicate all their off-spring in a litter. So we all start with a pup selected by whatever means. They are different..The hope is they meet a higher standard of performance and intelligence. Seeing a young dog/bitch perform demonstrates actual and relative performance. but comes with no guarantees.Did you and your sibling and off-spring come with guarantees? Why should our animals. Go back to Cold Harbor, NY for genetic understandings now matched with DNA probabilities.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> But, what do you do about the Jekyll and Hyde dogs that are one way on game day and completely the opposite in training?


Since the original discussion has taken a typical turn I submit other things to consider when choosing sire and/or dam
1. Who trained the dog?
2. Was the dog successful with a variety of handlers? e.g. FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine had all age wins with 5 different handlers (3 male & 2 female), Double Headers and National Finalist with multiple handlers. 
3. Is/was the dog injury prone.
4. What about temperament, do you consider that? 

An aside comment to those who think they want to own a so-called "fire breather", do you have any idea how difficult it can be to train and maintain that type dog. As Ted previously stated pros don't typically want those type dogs because they are too time consuming. Unfortunately yours truly may be about to enjoy(?) that experience, tighten up my seatbelt it could be a wild ride and not one for the faint of heart.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Bill, Yes you can. But why? There are cheats and dishonest people everywhere but if you have known quality dogs and reputable breeders, why. Reputation are earned over time but it only takes one aw s..t to destroy a reputation. 
So one last question, would you do that?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Bill, Yes you can. But why? There are cheats and dishonest people everywhere but if you have known quality dogs and reputable breeders, why. Reputation are earned over time but it only takes one aw s..t to destroy a reputation.
> So one last question, would you do that?


I wouldn’t... but I’m not in it for money. 

And I agree most wouldn’t do something like that.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

EdA said:


> Since the original discussion has taken a typical turn I submit other things to consider when choosing sire and/or dam
> 1. Who trained the dog?
> 2. Was the dog successful with a variety of handlers? e.g. FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine had all age wins with 5 different handlers (3 male & 2 female), Double Headers and National Finalist with multiple handlers.
> 3. Is/was the dog injury prone.
> ...


Sorry....partially my fault for turning the thread. But since we’ve continued...

1 and 2 are very important to me. Many people talk about looking at results on EE. I’d do but I want to know the trainer and handler. Most Am’s regardless of venue, are going to have a poor pass/fail rate. If I’m looking at a dog who is or has been know to throw hot or maybe hard headed dogs trainer/handler becomes very important. I can’t remember how many times we tried for our first senior test with my first dog. It wasn’t THAT bad but it took 4 or 5 tests before we figured out how to do it together. 

The injury thing is very frustrating for me. Too many people keep quiet and as a breeder sometimes you just have to pray. 

Temperament is PRIME here. I want it all, but 50% of my pups go to homes with kids. They have to be kind and have an off switch. If they can’t get along with other dogs or have anything outside of normal dog responses, they don’t stay. 

I’ve only been to a few Fts. And with a dog I have now I’ll probably get my feet wet with QAA because she’s fun and looks like she can do it. But the manners allowed to get by at HT sometimes are appalling. I would say thoug, that it’s mostly with AMs. Not pros. And I suspect just like at Fts, it’s hard to consistently get to MNH level without having good manners.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Mind you coming more from GSPs and still learning the lab lines and dogs, I do not see the same organized line breeding like GSPs have. I know the names better, but I can look at a GSP pedigree from breeders that are line breeding with thought and care, and I can tell about 75% of the time or better what that dog will be like. The right choice for a sire has very little to do with a specific sire's accomplishments in ribbons, but way more on how they genetically compliment (or don't) the Dam. (setting aside the nurture side, a whole other can of worms discussion bringing a dog to their potential.) Which specific dogs are they line bred on and which specific traits do you want more or less of. Example 1: One of my now desceased GSPs was a son of a dog known to throw fantastic temperament. Biddable, easy dogs to have around with no loss of drive. But line breed on that sire too much in one pedigree and the dogs get soft and shy. He also had style out the wazooo, and he throws that very well too. Those same heavy line breedings that produced some soft dogs also produced style and it just seems to increase no matter what. The best IMHO pairings from him have him 2-3 times behind a puppy and are balanced with some boldness from the others. Example 2: Another line of well know dogs produces some serious drive. Retrieving drive (GSPs still here) is super high, and these dogs often become nearly OCD over it. The down side is line breeding very heavily on those dogs, can erode the natural point. Young dogs take way more training to steady up reliably, and are often hard to break of busting birds when out of sight of the handler. These dogs have enough toughness and drive to put of with some bad training and not lose much but they also require more training to be trial ready. Even hunting ready. 
Hopefully I will learn the lab lines enough to have this knowledge in the future but as it stands I don't even see pedigrees that have this kind of line breeding to start from. Other than they "all" go back somehow to the same 2 or 3 dogs. It's seems more like taking two great dogs and seeing what they produce. If I am wrong about this in labs tell me!  I am anxious to learn.


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