# collar conditioning



## Don Thomsen (Mar 16, 2011)

I am getting ready to CC another dog. I have always used Lardy's methods in the past. I noticed that Evan CC to here first, which is different than Lardy. Is there an advantage to this? I would welcome your thoughts.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

bumper52 said:


> I am getting ready to CC another dog. I have always used Lardy's methods in the past. I noticed that Evan CC to here first, which is different than Lardy. Is there an advantage to this? I would welcome your thoughts.


If I didn't believe it were advantageous I wouldn't do it. My method recognizes the advances both in our instruments (the e-collars themselves), as well as in technology (our methods). 

I listened when Mr. Carr stated that "Here" was the most important and most enforceable command. It seemed logical to me that if a pup has good prey drive, and would come more reliably, that he could be exposed more constructively to more meaningful marks. The way I CC pups is very low key, and offers those benefits. 

Further, it also is reasonable to me that a gundog that desires to retrieve, and also comes reliably, is more serviceable than one that is less reliable, particularly when distracted. You can rely on one that is CC'd more than one that isn't, _and_ you have a tool to assure compliance if needed.

CC to "Here" is the only portion of the conditioning process _I_ do prior to FF, so the contrast is not as stark as is often protrayed.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Lets talk terminology.......If we are talking about conditioning a dog to be able to appropriately accept a collar stimulation by using a known previously taught command, the term CC(collar condition) is correct. 

Once the dog is conditioned to the collar, we are no longer conditioning (CC) but rather "reinforcing" the command(s)with the collar.

I *collar condition in *the order of their value for effective use, with No being the first command CCed and then _reinforced_ with the collar when it is used. 
Then comes Here, then Sit, and finally Go, which is taught and _reinforced_ in conjunction with the command Kennel.

All this being done and in place prior to the Trained Retrieve or FF if you will.

john


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

My first comment is that there are far more important things in training a dog than whether you CC first to sit or here or anything else. 

You will get all sorts of opinions on this and everybody has their own "best" reasons.

Here are mine.

I disagree with Evan that "here" is the most important command. Funny thing I have also heard that Rex said "sit" is the most critical? I believe "sit" is and will be the most important and useful command for the rest of a dog's life. While puppies often don't want to come, there are not many older dogs that have a problem with "here". BUT many have a problem with "sit". I find a good sit is very important to all early training including FF, Obedience, Pilework, DTT and so-on. In comparison, a reasonable here is pretty easy to achieve, at least enough to progress nicely. PS. If an adult dog won't come to you, you have much bigger problems!!!!

Sit can be more easily taught first without pressure and then reinforced. It is easier to achieve a stable response with sit. 

Here is taught by many with the e-collar and a rope. The e-collar is often used to get them to pay attention and then they are roped in. I have seen puppies taugt to come this way when they were confirmed "tag-players" but I would much rather "want" my puppy to come to me without ropes or even food. One way is restraining and the other way is bribing. If you "want" a puppy to come to you, why would you be punishing him at an early stage.

I do not like to restrain dogs. So, I do not thing restraint with "here" is genius. I think it is unfair and a way of artificially creating an opportunity to punish "effort". Any time my dogs tries to do the right thing, he should not be punished. 

This is all part of a different philosophy towards training dogs. It's similar to how some people think Basics is primarily about pressure conditioning. I think basics is primarily about teaching fudamental skills required for the future. As part of Basics, certain behaviours are reinforced to make them reliable. I don't even like to call this pressure conditioning because that's not my goal. My purpose in using pressure is to make some behaviour reliable. It is not to make them conditioned to accept it. That conditioning occurs through judiciuos use and repetiton when a dog understands. This is a different philosophy than "making" them accept pressure. (Witness all the threads on FF that say that's the goal). So, while I use force, I do not preach that this is a "force-based" system. I believe a dog could be put through all the Basics steps without using the e-collar. I just believe that the e-collar allows better timing, better understanding therefore by the dog, better intensity of pressure control and remote application. 

As far as commands that are enforced, they are primarily sit, here and go (ie back). I do not condition to "NO". No means stop some behaviour but it doesn't tell the dog what to do. Stopping behaviour is labelled punishment. If we want to encourage behaviour we reinforce, so the e-collar is , for me, always used with an action command such as "go, stop. come". Often these are used with Indirect pressure such as sit nick sit for poor effort. Others are Direct such as Back nick back for a pop.

Finally, I can think of one application for the e-collar that could be labled punishment. That is for barking or whining, for example in the kennel. While you might say "quiet" nick, you are really saying "No" nick because you are trying to stop the behaviour (and encourage quiet?). PS. I am not a fan of bark collars.

So, I do not like to say "NO" to a puppy and nick him for anything else. I would rather tell him what to do if I am going to use the e-collar.

Sorry this developed into more than sit vs here cc'd first but my answer comes with understanding the philosophy of the whole package.

Have at it!


Cheers


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

One further note about sequence for me. When I used to ear pinch for force fetch, I did FF first and then CC. Now since I primarily only FF with the e-collar, I renforce sit and here with the e-collar before I FF. A super sit becomes very important with this process. 

I suspect that my puppy hears the word "sit' about 20X as much as any other command and even more than "good dog".


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

No/Stop ......If a dog stops doing something when told to, he has in fact done something. He has stopped doing something. 

In that case the act of stopping whatever it was that it doing is the action

john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> And one more thing, sit may be the most important command in Field Trials, but 'here' comes in very handy around heavy traffic and crazy, unruly puppies. Accidents happen, I want my dog to come first.


 

yes accidents do happen. And if a pup made it INTO traffic alive he is blessed. If I think he can make it back to me the same way I am stupid.
I want my dog to sit first while I put my large backside 'tween the traffic
and he. SIT, first! Here first makes half trained pups run TOO you when you need um to be still, so they wont get killed.


.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

If your letting your dogs run through traffic, your problems are bigger than CC order!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

bumper52 said:


> I am getting ready to CC another dog. I have always used Lardy's methods in the past. I noticed that Evan CC to here first, which is different than Lardy. Is there an advantage to this? I would welcome your thoughts.


I had a young dog that was a tag champion. If he got by you and the long lead coming out of the box it was 30 minutes of coaxing, teasing, chasing, and cussing before he tired out and came back for a drink.

But Lardy's program said CC comes after FF and three handed casting and CC sit before here so that is the order I did things. I've since heard Lardy say that he has CC some pups to here earlier in his program (before CC to sit). I know of another trainer that "bends" his young dogs (not fully CC) to the here command early on.

If I have another runner that I can't get to come to me by other means, I'll likely CC or bend to the here command early.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Evans way worked for me when no other way did. And as far as unfair, the sport we play in is full of unfair. For example driving a dog through scent. What could be more unfair then encouraging a dog to honor his nose, and then insist that he doesn't?
> It might be unfair, but it was done in one session, and with very good results.
> Walt


Hey Walt, I'm not sure what other ways you tried and with how many pups but in any case, I didn't say "Here" first wouldn't work. I just offered my ideas on why I do what I do and why I choose "sit" first. I have done it both ways.

Yes!! we all know that "Life is Unfair"! However, as a dog trainer that asks dogs to do things that we want -not necessarily that they want, I believe, it is important to do everything we can to make out training as fair as possible. 

We must have respect for our dogs!! I do not believe in using our sport as a "means to justify the end!"

The scent honour or not is not a simple case of insisting that they not honour their nose. Instead it is a case of first teaching them to discriminate between scents to follow and scents to not follow and secondly teaching them situations where we want them to obey an instruction to go elsewhere even with a nose-full. I don't think it is ever a case of telling them to go and fetch something that they can smell and then restraining them from doing it. I would never burn a dog for honoring his nose but if I cast him off of it and told him otherwise, that is a different situation. If I tell him not to go there, that is not unfair. If I tell him to go there and then correct him for doing what I say--that is unfair in my book.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

captainjack said:


> If I have another runner that I can't get to come to me by other means, I'll likely CC or bend to the here command early.


Glen 

I agree and I probably would too!! But as you said "if I can't get to come by any other means". In this thread we aren't talking about exceptional cases or saying never or always. We are discussing the pros and cons given the option.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I disagree with Evan that "here" is the most important command. Funny thing I have also heard that Rex said "sit" is the most critical? I believe "sit" is and will be the most important and useful command for the rest of a dog's life.


I rarely disagree with you, Dennis. But I think there are some differences in how we two may frame all of this that will shed more light on it. I don’t think it’s a night & day disparity between which command is taught first; “Here” or “Sit”. I do believe “Here” makes more sense, but it’s because I view the situation differently as a whole.

If a dog has enough desire to chase after motion…to go for the fallen object, and he’ll come reliably when called, he is a functional retriever. “Sit” only turns him into an observer, in literal terms. Does that mean that I would intend to diminish the vital importance of “Sit”? Of course not. I only make note of these facts to explain why I believe one has a more basically practical application than the other.

But I want to shine some light on our rationale in the larger context. I certainly agree, puppies usually get to a point all too soon that coming to us isn’t what they want to do, especially when they’re old enough to be distracted by so many things.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> While puppies often don't want to come, there are not many older dogs that have a problem with "here".


But there is quite a difference between puppies and older dogs in this discussion. The term “older dog” is framed here as not only older chronologically, but of course in volume of training and experience. The puppy is an excellent example of the gundog analogy I mentioned earlier. If they’ll come on command reliably, they are both safer and more able to participate in more meaningful marks in the field without side issues breaking down their usefulness.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> In comparison, a reasonable here is pretty easy to achieve, at least enough to progress nicely. PS. If an adult dog won't come to you, you have much bigger problems!!!!


I agree!


RetrieversONLINE said:


> Sit can be more easily taught first without pressure and then reinforced. It is easier to achieve a stable response with sit.


Again, I agree. That’s why I set up my puppy program to teach all fundamental commands via operant conditioning FIRST; well before any pressure enters the process.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> Here is taught by many with the e-collar and a rope. The e-collar is often used to get them to pay attention and then they are roped in.


 But not by me. And I was only speaking for myself when I offered my opinion. As mentioned above, I passively teach “Here” first, using only a check cord or lightweight rope when necessary to reinforce the command with pups. At around 4 months of age I then support that prior teaching when I CC to “Here”. Just as importantly, only minimal pressure is used at that time.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> I have seen puppies taught to come this way when they were confirmed "tag-players" but I would much rather "want" my puppy to come to me without ropes or even food. One way is restraining and the other way is bribing. If you "want" a puppy to come to you, why would you be punishing him at an early stage?


I understand, if it is done as punishment. The way I do it, the command reinforcement is not punishment; it’s compulsion. That pressure to compel compliance is only reinforcement for a command previously taught. Again, I’m speaking for myself and my method.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> I do not like to restrain dogs. So, I do not thing restraint with "here" is genius. I think it is unfair and a way of artificially creating an opportunity to punish "effort". Any time my dogs tries to do the right thing, he should not be punished.


I think we may be in disagreement more over context. I hope so. I say that because our terms may be perceived differently.

When I use restraint it is friction-like. It is not denial. That surely would be esteemed as punishment by the dog, and I agree; that’s an unfair way of using it. In my application the dog is allowed to proceed, but with judiciously applied resistance; friction-like restraint, not outright denial. I hope I’ve cleared that up a bit.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> This is all part of a different philosophy towards training dogs. It's similar to how some people think Basics is primarily about pressure conditioning. I think basics is primarily about teaching fundamental skills required for the future. As part of Basics, certain behaviors are reinforced to make them reliable.


I don’t think “Basics” is one thing. I also don’t think there is just one mode of conveying information. I teach 'training' (to students) as having three phases; Teach, Force, Reinforce. The latter two are often misunderstood, so I go to great lengths to explain them. But, like any good trainer, we teach first…thoroughly. But now comes the discussion of pressure; “Force”.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> I don't even like to call this pressure conditioning because that's not my goal. My purpose in using pressure is to make some behaviour reliable. It is not to make them conditioned to accept it.


If that were the approach I would also disagree with it. I’m sure you’ve seen plenty of trainers for whom that is the order of the day, as have I. But that is not my approach.

My approach to pressure conditioning is orderly and sequential. It is also temperate. That’s because I don’t just want to ‘make dogs accept it’. I want to condition them to tolerate it constructively by complying with known commands. I’m sure you know that pressure is what the dog perceives it to be. It may be physical, or mental, or even environmental. Sometimes that pressure is no more than a distraction, but those influences can destabilize a dog's performance. 

But what I seek as an end result is a dog that can continue to function under command, and to do so in a stable, reliable manner, even when he is distracted, or when he perceives pressure. The course I take them through to accomplish this is most definitely “conditioning” by even the strictest definition.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> That conditioning occurs through judiciuos use and repetition when a dog understands. This is a different philosophy than "making" them accept pressure.


As I explain the process, that’s the “reinforcement” aspect of the training cycle. Reinforcement serves two purposes, one of which agrees with your explanation. That is that by using pressure judiciously over time, the dog becomes better conditioned to constructively deal with pressure through compliance. But in that process the dog also has all his essential skills and commands reinforced.. That’s what I believe maintenance is about.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> If we want to encourage behaviour we reinforce, so the e-collar is , for me, always used with an action command such as "go, stop. come". Often these are used with Indirect pressure such as sit nick sit for poor effort. Others are Direct such as Back nick back for a pop.


Generally speaking, me too. And on another point of agreement, you used an important phrase earlier. “I believe "sit" is and will be the most important and useful command *for the rest of a dog's life.*” I see “Here” as an easy command to train, as well as to maintain. We reinforce that command with every retrieve, and make adjustments on the fly all the time. That way it really isn’t usually the high maintenance issue that “sit” often is. So, for the long term, “sit” will tend to occupy a higher place in maintenance than “here”. It’s immensely important to all the fundamental aspects of fieldwork. I would never assert that ‘sit’ is unimportant.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> PS. I am not a fan of bark collars.


Neither am I. I hope I’ve provided some clarity on my point of view about this.

Evan


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## Don Thomsen (Mar 16, 2011)

well, I started this thread and I want to thank all who responded, especially Evan...in Smartwork Vol. 1 he states: "In a departure from e-collar tradition, I formalize the "Here" command first. This includes collar conditioning to this vital command before moving on to the next command. I realize that this is quite a change, for many trainers. But, change is necessary if anything is to improve."

I guess I just wanted his take on what he felt was the advantage. I guess through all of this, I have learned that there are many ways to get from point A to point Z. Just don't skip any steps. The finished product will all turn out in the end albeit some steps were inverted along the way. Thanks again


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

You're welcome. And good luck along the way. If I can be of help let me know.

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks to Ken and Byron, I was just heading out to put my dogs into traffic. But now that you've pointed out that's not a good idea, I won't. God bless you.
> Walt


 
sometimes, the rope breaks ;-)


.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Oh for the love of god....... why so much emphasis on who did what first? Evan is now taking credit for CC a dog to here before sit? Lets see, they are both core commands. They are both extremely basic commands, with complete adherence necessary. For the record I cc using both, pretty much in the same lessons. So there, I created it, I want all the credit. So mired in minutia lately is getting old. Chris, please stop the madness...

And for the record, I asked Chris to stop the madness first.....

/Paul


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

LOL @ Gundog


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Oh for the love of god....... why so much emphasis on who did what first? Evan is now taking credit for CC a dog to here before sit? .....
> 
> /Paul


now now /paul,
lets be fair, 
Evan is taking credit for needing 2 ropes and a helper and a post and an E-collar and a stick..... to collar condition a dog.
And while I very much agree with the post Dennis typed instead of the post Evan loops his rope around...
.. I feel me must remain accurate in our accusations.;-)
.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Oh for the love of god....... why so much emphasis on who did what first? Evan is now taking credit for CC a dog to here before sit?
> 
> And for the record, I asked Chris to stop the madness first.....
> 
> /Paul


Paul,

You may want to read over posts #1 & 5. 

And I'll be happy to be second on this one.

Enjoy,

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Chris, please stop the madness...
> 
> And for the record, I asked Chris to stop the madness first.....
> 
> /Paul


 
Trust me Chris has been asked MANY times before this!!!! 

And I take credit for pursuing the "Madness" first since I have been a devotee of "Madness" for over 12 years. My late Prairiemarsh "Madness" was a NFTCH NAFTCH FC AFC FTCH AFTCH. His daughter, Sheer "Madness" is my current favorite hunting dog with about 60 mallards in her bag so far this season.


PS. Chris will never be able to stop the madness here, nor will you or I!!

Stuck in the office today-regards


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

So what i find interesting is so much focus on all the small parts of training a dog. CC is a few days, a few sessions. FF is a few weeks. T work is a few weeks. Yet we discuss these topics 3 times longer than they should take. What I have come to appreciate is that young dogs are hugely satisfying to train because virtually every day I get to see them learn something. Each day a light bulb goes off. That is awesome and for me an extremely rewarding part of getting out of bed everyday. On the flip side, we don't seem to have any training threads lately about teaching advanced dogs. Why is that? For the most part advanced dogs take time. It may take 6 months or longer to truly see a light bulb on a concept go off. What I have come to appreciate though is when the light bulb goes off in advanced training, the satisfaction is so much more because the time and effort, the communication and the relationship with the dog has come together. Watching a dog learn the balance needed to get on and off points at 250 yards for example, or doing a shoreline swim for 100 yards starting 200 yards out on a memory mark, now that is memory making. I've FF'd, CC'd, transitioned hundreds of times, but the truly memorable moments come when the advanced dog "gets it." 

There are many ways to get a young dog through basics and transition which is a testament to the great dogs we work with, not a testament to the training methods we use....


/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Trust me Chris has been asked MANY times before this!!!!
> 
> And I take credit for pursuing the "Madness" first since I have been a devotee of "Madness" for over 12 years. My late Prairiemarsh "Madness" was a NFTCH NAFTCH FC AFC FTCH AFTCH. His daughter, Sheer "Madness" is my current favorite hunting dog with about 60 mallards in her bag so far this season.
> 
> ...


You know Dennis. There are days I love you, and days I hate you. 60 mallards already this season? Guess which day it is...?

/Paul


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

john fallon said:


> I *collar condition in *the order of there value for effective use, with No being the first command CCed and then _reinforced_ with the collar when it is used.
> Then comes Here, then Sit, and finally Go, which is taught and _reinforced_ in conjunction with the command Kennel.
> 
> john


I'm interested to know how you CC to "no". I've never heard that before. 

Thanks!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> You know Dennis. There are days I love you, and days I hate you. 60 mallards already this season? Guess which day it is...?
> 
> /Paul


 
So today is your season opener? We've been open for 4 weeks but the Northerns haven't even arrived yet!!! We sent you some Blue-wings last week and a few mallards have escaped. I expect things to pick up here soon. 

I even had the pup (7 mos) out and he showed how important "sit" was by not breaking on his first mallard. But heck, when I said "here" let's go home", he looked at me "like no way-this is too much fun!" 

I held up the mallards and he came "here" like he had a rope on!!! Sorry Bora and Evan-couldn't resist!!

Hey it's still raining outside but should stop for the evening flight!!!!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> So today is your season opener? We've been open for 4 weeks but the Northerns haven't even arrived yet!!! We sent you some Blue-wings last week and a few mallards have escaped. I expect things to pick up here soon.
> 
> I even had the pup (7 mos) out and he showed how important "sit" was by not breaking on his first mallard. But heck, when I said "here" let's go home", he looked at me "like no way-this is too much fun!"
> 
> ...


Ya our opener was last Saturday but I'm alas, chasing the wiley Blacktail deer and being teased by bull elk. I'm living through my clients who all went and had great opening days, one of them shooting her first green head over her newly titled MH. I must be getting old or soft or something but helping her get that title and shoot her first bird is more satisfying than any limit of birds I've shot in many years....

/Paul


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So what i find interesting is so much focus on all the small parts of training a dog. CC is a few days, a few sessions. FF is a few weeks. T work is a few weeks. Yet we discuss these topics 3 times longer than they should take. What I have come to appreciate is that young dogs are hugely satisfying to train because virtually every day I get to see them learn something. Each day a light bulb goes off. That is awesome and for me an extremely rewarding part of getting out of bed everyday. On the flip side, we don't seem to have any training threads lately about teaching advanced dogs. Why is that? For the most part advanced dogs take time. It may take 6 months or longer to truly see a light bulb on a concept go off. What I have come to appreciate though is when the light bulb goes off in advanced training, the satisfaction is so much more because the time and effort, the communication and the relationship with the dog has come together. Watching a dog learn the balance needed to get on and off points at 250 yards for example, or doing a shoreline swim for 100 yards starting 200 yards out on a memory mark, now that is memory making. I've FF'd, CC'd, transitioned hundreds of times, but the truly memorable moments come when the advanced dog "gets it."
> 
> There are many ways to get a young dog through basics and transition which is a testament to the great dogs we work with, not a testament to the training methods we use....
> 
> ...


Just from the outside looking in I, like alot on the RTF are new to training and come here for help. And most of that help is about the early training CC FF and TT. I guess for some the conversations about CC FF and TT get old. I does seem like there is much talk about all of the different meathods and how they are used in training. I, like many im sure, am like a sponge soaking it all in so that maybe just maybe I can put it all together with my pup and maybe just maybe in another year I can pop on here and talk about my advanced training light bulb moment and get your opinion on it. 

I understand your frustrations with some of the things going on, on the RTF but please dont let that keep you from helping the new feller out when he needs help! 

Respectfuly 

Jonathan


PS Im the new feller....


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

jamaulden said:


> Just from the outside looking in I, like alot on the RTF are new to training and come here for help. And most of that help is about the early training CC FF and TT. I guess for some the conversations about CC FF and TT get old. I does seem like there is much talk about all of the different meathods and how they are used in training. I, like many im sure, am like a sponge soaking it all in so that maybe just maybe I can put it all together with my pup and maybe just maybe in another year I can pop on here and talk about my advanced training light bulb moment and get your opinion on it.
> 
> I understand your frustrations with some of the things going on, on the RTF but please dont let that keep you from helping the new feller out when he needs help!
> 
> ...


Fair enough Jonathan. Message received.

/Paul


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2011)

mlopez said:


> I'm interested to know how you CC to "no". I've never heard that before.
> 
> Thanks!


Marie,

It is really just best to ignore him and talk about him like he is not in the room.

Melanie


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Marie,
> 
> It is really just best to ignore him and talk about him like he is not in the room.
> 
> Melanie


You beat me to it. He is just trying to sucker someone in. Don't ask!


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Melanie Foster said:


> Marie,
> 
> It is really just best to ignore him and talk about him like he is not in the room.
> 
> Melanie


:razz: I tried really hard to do that, but I just couldn't quite let that one go...


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> I listened when Mr. Carr stated that "Here" was the most important and most enforceable command.


I would like to know when Mr. Carr stated this. It seems very "funny" to me, that people who have won numerous nationals and studied with Rex do it differently. Inquiring minds want to know.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Dennis, I respect you and hate you at the same time. We don't have enough water in Texas for 60 mallard to set down in. LOL. Good gracious I can remember those days though.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2011)

john fallon said:


> No/Stop ......If a dog stops doing something when told to, he has in fact done something. He has stopped doing something.
> 
> In that case the act of stopping whatever it was that it doing is the action
> 
> john


Nicely done. Mission accomplished.

Then how would you use the collar to reinforce sit or here. Do you really want them to stop doing either of those when collar conditioning?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I would like to know when Mr. Carr stated this. It seems very "funny" to me, that people who have won numerous nationals and studied with Rex do it differently. Inquiring minds want to know.


Maybe we should ask Vickie Lamb who has Rex's notes and who knows all the people who were at Rex's from his logs.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I disagree with Evan that "here" is the most important command. Funny thing I have also heard that Rex said "sit" is the most critical? I believe "sit" is and will be the most important and useful command for the rest of a dog's life. While puppies often don't want to come, there are not many older dogs that have a problem with "here". BUT many have a problem with "sit". I find a good sit is very important to all early training including FF, Obedience, Pilework, DTT and so-on. In comparison, a reasonable here is pretty easy to achieve, at least enough to progress nicely. PS. If an adult dog won't come to you, you have much bigger problems!!!!


From the notes I have: 










I'm also 99% positive in the notes I have Rex does state that sit is the most important command...but I don't have a lot of time to find it. But he did CC to sit first.

BTW anyone out there with Rex Carr notes they would like to share I'd be interested in being able to get a copy of them. I'm also willing to scan them in and make them pdfs and return originals.

And for any newbie out there - take the "shock" with a grain of salt - there is a part in his notes that he discusses his use of strong language to drive a point across, then add into the mix that back then e-collars were a lot less sophisticated. But I do chuckle at using tape to ensure a dog does not bite ya!

FOM


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I would like to know when Mr. Carr stated this. It seems very "funny" to me, that people who have won numerous nationals and studied with Rex do it differently. Inquiring minds want to know.


I was sitting about two feet from him in a chair when he said that to someone in the group. I doubt he intended it to become scripture. A handler was having one of those moments where a dog had gotten deep of the blind, and was being called in toward it. As I have seen many times, it had become a nagging match with the dog going into a hunt instead of coming as called. Rex commented on the fundamental importance of "Here". 

This is not an issue of epic relevance, as it is being portrayed. 

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

FOM said:


> From the notes I have:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that the Jeff Findlay notes that you have scanned or some other? we may have a trade.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> I was sitting about two feet from him in a chair when he said that to someone in the group. I doubt he intended it to become scripture. A handler was having one of those moments where a dog had gotten deep of the blind, and was being called in toward it. As I have seen many times, it had become a nagging match with the dog going into a hunt instead of coming as called. Rex commented on the fundamental importance of "Here".
> 
> This is not an issue of epic relevance, as it is being portrayed.
> 
> Evan


This is a great example of how dog training happens in the moment. That moment is gone, and that moment is gone, that moment is gone, that moment is gone....

/Paul


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Is that the Jeff Findlay notes that you have scanned or some other? we may have a trade.


I honestly couldn't tell you, but send me your email address...I'll send you what I have. I'm always looking to add to my collection - I did not have the pleasure of knowing him and my goal is to make sure that his knowledge is not lost...he is a big part of our history...

Lainee ([email protected])


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2011)

Evan said:


> I listened when Mr. Carr stated that "Here" was the most important and most enforceable command.


Most important and most enforceable are two totally different things. Rex would never have said that.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Evan said:


> This is not an issue of epic relevance, as it is being portrayed.


But it seems to me, that you made it out to be epic because someone offered an opinion that differs from the training material you keep promoting on this site day in and day out....and this individual is highly respected among his peers because he has walked the talk in recent history and has had real tangible success and continues to have success.

Don't get me wrong, your training material is a good solid starting point for the newbies, but every single time someone else offers a differing opinion you have to try and prove them incorrect and then push your training material. There is more than one way to skin a cat and your constant brow beating of SmartWorks on this forum keeps those with just as valid of training points from posting because it is hard to try and beat the constant marketer.

SmartWorks is not the end all be all to training a retriever. It is a good starting point, but I'm personally sick of seeing the forced and indirect advertising of it here on RTF....please let us have conversations about training without the answer being buy this DVD or that...

FOM


********* EDIT: At least I said what I had to say publicly...if I'm completely wrong in the views I expressed I'm sure the general RTF public will let me know, but my guess is I've only expressed an opinion that many, many RTFers share...I have no issue saying what I want to say and I will do it publicly not via PM....and yes maybe it was a little rude, but I have not typed a single word here that I would not say face to face and in front of witnesses.


.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

FOM said:


> But it seems to me, that you made it out to be epic because someone offered an opinion that differs from the training material you keep promoting on this site day in and day out....and this individual is highly respected among his peers because he has walked the talk in recent history and has had real tangible success and continues to have success.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, your training material is a good solid starting point for the newbies, but every single time someone else offers a differing opinion you have to try and prove them incorrect and then push your training material. There is more than one way to skin a cat and your constant brow beating of SmartWorks on this forum keeps those with just as valid of training points from posting because it is hard to try and beat the constant marketer.
> 
> ...


Hey Jeff. What she said...

/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

A year after collar conditioning, do you think it makes any difference if come or sit were cc'd first?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Howard N said:


> A year after collar conditioning, do you think it makes any difference if come or sit were cc'd first?


Well it depends, if my dogs was clean all the way till the last series of the National and broke on an honor in the 10th series I'd be pissed! 

But then again I don't think I'll have to worry about that anytime soon!

FOM


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> I was sitting about two feet from him in a chair when he said that to someone in the group. I doubt he intended it to become scripture. A handler was having one of those moments where a dog had gotten deep of the blind, and was being called in toward it. As I have seen many times, it had become a nagging match with the dog going into a hunt instead of coming as called. Rex commented on the fundamental importance of "Here".
> 
> This is not an issue of epic relevance, as it is being portrayed.
> 
> Evan


Hmmmmm............... that's funny. Because I just had my Quija board out, and Rex said this never happened. And he said, "Evan, who?" 

Then he said, "read my notes, Dammit!~" Collar condition to Sit!


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

FOM said:


> Don't get me wrong, *your training material is a good solid starting point for the newbies, but every single time someone else offers a differing opinion you have to try and prove them incorrect and then push your training material. *There is more than one way to skin a cat and your constant brow beating of SmartWorks on this forum keeps those with just as valid of training points from posting because it is hard to try and beat the constant marketer.
> 
> SmartWorks is not the end all be all to training a retriever. It is a good starting point, but *I'm personally sick of seeing the forced and indirect advertising of it here on RTF....*please let us have conversations about training without the answer being buy this DVD or that...
> 
> FOM


Thank you for posting this.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I do it (cc) one way sometimes (sit) and another sometimes (here) depending on the dog. Lardy says for some dogs it is best to start on here. I know I'm not in the class of many of the posters on this subject but I try to adjust my training to the dog. I get many client dogs that are older and come with issues and most have never had a lead on them much less taught to come on command. These I have to start on cc to here. Those that will come when called I start on sit. I teach them the commands on a check cord (rope for Ken) first, of coarse.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Some interesting stuff hidden in the middle. I've never CC to here my pups all know it before we even think about putting on the e-collar. I go old school on that with a light line and a pinch/choke collar, I really dislike chasing puppies around, and a friend of mine just lost a pup to a street accident and a game of tag, reminding me how important absolute adherence to that command is. You've got to be to careful to do the conditioning of the collar right, and dogs need to understand how to work with pressure and a tool you be using through-out training. Which is why I introduce it in the later stages of FF. In my opinion Here is not pressure trained. It's taught then it's enforced early. When I say Here my dogs respond and come, collar or no-collar, they learn that early and completely, so there is no conditioning to it.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Evan said:


> This is not an issue of epic relevance, as it is being portrayed.
> 
> Evan


Evan

I don't think it is being portayed as issue of epic relevance. My opener was 

*"My first comment is that there are far more important things in training a dog than whether you CC first to sit or here or anything else".*

You have said that you depart from "traditional" on "here" before "sit" and you used e-collar advances and method advances as a rationale. I believe that Smartworks talks about "progress" in methods.

Well I have certainly changed my methods over the years also. I sure don't consider that retriever training has not changed over the years. So I appreciated your point by point replies to my post. It would seem that we would explain and rationalize many procedures in a similar way. 

Not everybody is conversant in the language and theory of Operant Conditioning but those that are can often rationalize their methods using the same theory. Yet when I read or watch videos I see different techniques. Thus, most of my post was actually directed at approach and philosophy rather than order of teaching. As I said to Captainjack, I have had a need to "here" a "tag-playing" pup first but overall I find emphasis on "sit" as perhaps the biggest change for me in my training in the past several years. 

I have been influenced by a very talented but particularly renegade non-sitter dog ( and a desire to not have another!) and the simplicity and less forceful (less pressure) methods documented in Hillmann's DVDs. So all of our joking aside, this really isn't "Madness" to me but rather it's about a real fundamental paradigm shift from what has been traditionally done. 

The beauty of being old is that one has had the chance to study a lot of methods and even evaluate them in practice and observation. I have spent a lot of time studying Rex and Lardy and Farmer/Aycock, Rorem and Attar and Stawski and Patopea and many others, including of course you and Smartworks. So at this stage, if Mike or Rex or Evan have said "this is the way", I don't feel compelled to slavishly follow it. 

However, all of this must be mind-boggling for a beginner. I think it is totally fair for them to be asking about method "a" vs method "b". To them it is of epic relevance with their 'special' first dog. This internet venue replaces the old way of digging out info and thinking and re-reading and experimenting and learning from trial and error. That can be good or it can be sad!

Of course, every thread ends up the same way-trashed by personalities or mis-understanding or joking or simply boredom. There is only one common link in all of this- the dogs and our interest in them. That's worth remembering because if they knew how we talk about them they'd probably never "sit" or "here". So talk all we want, we still have to get out there and train and "just do it".

*General question: How much time per day on RTF versus interacting with your dogs?*


*I hope the dogs win!*


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Evan
> 
> Of course, every thread ends up the same way-trashed by personalities or mis-understanding or joking or simply boredom. There is only one common link in all of this- the dogs and our interest in them. That's worth remembering because if they knew how we talk about them they'd probably never "sit" or "here". So talk all we want, we still have to get out there and train and "just do it".
> 
> ...


That's about how I see it. I appreciate your perspective, Dennis. As I said before, I rarely disagree with you. I'm not sure I have much of a disagreement about this, even though it's been construed that way. I'm mostly just standing up for something I've espoused for years. It was a decision I made sometime back, and had rationale for.

Having a home-based business, and only two dogs to train, I have more time to look in on the forum than many others. I sometimes post more than others because helping people with training questions is something that gives me satisfaction and joy. As for dog interaction, my boy Moose is with me all day, in the field or in the office, he is always at my side. I have half ownership in another dog I take training several days each week.

Thankfully, there are many more nice people who are glad for the help I attempt to offer than there are noisy malcontents who seek to assign their own feloneous intent to the efforts of others. I like being available to those who have questions. I recognized years ago that putting my method in print would make me a target for mud slingers, as much as it would be a help to others. Each person is welcome to choose which they'll be.

Evan


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> That's about how I see it. I appreciate your perspective, Dennis. As I said before, I rarely disagree with you. I'm not sure I have much of a disagreement about this, even though it's been construed that way. I'm mostly just standing up for something I've espoused for years. It was a decision I made sometime back, and had rationale for.
> 
> Having a home-based business, and only two dogs to train, I have more time to look in on the forum than many others. I sometimes post more than others because helping people with training questions is something that gives me satisfaction and joy. As for dog interaction, my boy Moose is with me all day, in the field or in the office, he is always at my side. I have half ownership in another dog I take training several days each week.
> 
> ...


Again, it's not your answering questions, it's the constant commercials, and the manner in which you disagree with people. FOM hit the nail on the head.

Feloneous Intent: *Really?* _ Done with an intent to commit a serious crime or a felony; done with an evil heart or purpose; malicious; wicked; villainous._

Don't think so. 

My suggestion would be that you could build a blog off your own website. I would try Word Press. It's free and easy to set up. You could delete anything you disagree with.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Thankfully, there are many more nice people who are glad for the help I attempt to offer than there are noisy malcontents who seek to assign their own feloneous intent to the efforts of others. I like being available to those who have questions. I recognized years ago that putting my method in print would make me a target for mud slingers, as much as it would be a help to others.


FOM is a mod and not a "noisy malcontent" and she is supposed to call anyone out that is marketing and is not a sponsor. I for one back her as well.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

mlopez said:


> I'm interested to know how you CC to "no". I've never heard that before.
> 
> Thanks!


When they are doing something you want them to cease you say No and physicaly intervene and correct with voice and actions 'till you know they know what you want of them, you do this over a peroid of time, on a crossection of unwanted behaviors.

After that, when it comes time to cc to No you interject a collar stimulation in place of your prior physical intervention.... No-Nick- No, if he does not stop, No-Nick- No ,No-Nick- No, and so forth.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Nicely done. Mission accomplished.
> 
> Then how would you use the collar to reinforce sit or here. Do you really want them to stop doing either of those when collar conditioning?
> __________________


I also do that with "no".
I don't use corrections to CC a dog. To me corrections don't condition a whole lot .So I don't consider corrections conditioning to electric because they are used to stop behaviors not promote them. The nick on commands becomes an escape,not an avoidance. on CC commands. So far my dogs know the difference

Pete


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

john fallon said:


> When they are doing something you want them to cease you say No and physicaly intervene and correct with voice and actions 'till you know they know what you want of them, you do this over a peroid of time, on a crossection of unwanted behaviors.
> 
> After that, when it comes time to cc to No you interject a collar stimulation in place of your prior physical intervention.... No-Nick- No, if he does not stop, No-Nick- No ,No-Nick- No, and so forth.


For the new guy would this be simular to "indirect pressure". Or are you talking about general everyday get off the couch no nick no? 

Thanks


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Marie,
> 
> It is really just best to ignore him and talk about him like he is not in the room.
> 
> Melanie


You have delusions of grandeur about your self worth.

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Most important and most enforceable are two totally different things. *Rex would never have said that*.


You know this how???

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

jamaulden said:


> For the new guy would this be simular to "indirect pressure". Or are you talking about general everyday get off the couch no nick no?
> 
> Thanks


No it is not like indirect pressure. After conditioning, I use it for use as a stand alone correction for specific infractions such as the one you mentioned.

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

mlopez said:


> :razz: I tried really hard to do that, *but I just couldn't quite let that one go.*..





> but I just couldn't quite let that one go


.

Saying that you "just couldnt let that go" is indicative of someone who thinks that they know something about a subject

I answered your question, do you have any valid concerns about the substance of my reply. If you do , please articulate them . 

john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> That's about how I see it. I appreciate your perspective, Dennis. As I said before, I rarely disagree with you. I'm not sure I have much of a disagreement about this, even though it's been construed that way. I'm mostly just standing up for something I've espoused for years. It was a decision I made sometime back, and had rationale for.
> 
> Having a home-based business, and only two dogs to train, I have more time to look in on the forum than many others. I sometimes post more than others because helping people with training questions is something that gives me satisfaction and joy. As for dog interaction, my boy Moose is with me all day, in the field or in the office, he is always at my side. I have half ownership in another dog I take training several days each week.
> 
> ...


You know, I had a response to this that would frankly make Chris call me ask me as a friend to quit making his life difficult. I respect him too much to actually post it. All I have to say is "have a nice day Mr. Graham." 

Fact is I never have to worry about running into you at any FT, HT, Gundog competition, 10 Singles or Canine good citizen test so you're frankly not worth me putting Chris through it. 

/Paul


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)




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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

In this CC matter as in many others we can all have our differing views on what works and what doesn't and they are all valid and can be expressed here. What some seem to forget is that the right to be heard isn't at all the same thing as the right to be listened to; that one you have to earn, and the manners and mores of the schoolyard won't cut it. 

As a non collar trainer all this thread takes a bit of understanding, but one remark of *Gun_Dog2002's * leaped off the page ...."*virtually every day I get to see them learn something. Each day a light bulb goes off*". You lucky, lucky, person. 

Some of the ones I have through my hands don't appear to even have a socket where the (expletive deleted) bulb fits in! Got it one day ... gone the next; one step forward, two steps back, you need the patience of Job. 

Carry on Sergeant.

Eug


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Colonel Blimp said:


> In this CC matter as in many others we can all have our differing views on what works and what doesn't and they are all valid and can be expressed here. What some seem to forget is that the right to be heard isn't at all the same thing as the right to be listened to; that one you have to earn, and the manners and mores of the schoolyard won't cut it.
> 
> As a non collar trainer all this thread takes a bit of understanding, but one remark of *Gun_Dog2002's *leaped off the page ...."*virtually every day I get to see them learn something. Each day a light bulb goes off*". You lucky, lucky, person.
> 
> ...


That my friend, is because you are a springer guy!!!........;-)


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

I thought the light bulb going "OFF" is a bad thing. I want the lights "ON"!  I dont quite get the Pro-tude here. I kind of like hearing different opinions, including Evans and the offended lot too! I have most of the big name videos, Lardy, Smartfetch, Voight, Etc... THey all have great points, ideals, and reasoning. It is helping me greatly in forming my own training ability and plans. On the other hand, arguing about your stance on world peace doesn't help the rookie too much. THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR ADVICE!


P.S. I don't mind if anyone mentions thier video's or plans, especially if they are dealing out free advice!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> However, all of this must be mind-boggling for a beginner. I think it is totally fair for them to be asking about method "a" vs method "b". To them it is of epic relevance with their 'special' first dog. This internet venue replaces the old way of digging out info and thinking and re-reading and experimenting and learning from trial and error. That can be good or it can be sad!
> 
> Of course, every thread ends up the same way-trashed by personalities or mis-understanding or joking or simply boredom. There is only one common link in all of this- the dogs and our interest in them. That's worth remembering because if they knew how we talk about them they'd probably never "sit" or "here". So talk all we want, we still have to get out there and train and "just do it".


I'm going to try this once more and then surrender. Please keep in mind that my comments are intended to be very general in nature and are not aimed at any particular person(s) or even at this thread in particular, even though I have used this thread and its discussion in making my point below.

As a new feller myself, I come here looking for knowledge on how to do something that I have never tried before. I can read the Lardy stuff, look at the SmartWorks puppy program, and talk to folks who are in the game, and this is just another potential resource. And it is potentially a great one, because somebody on here is likely to have faced the same problem you are having and successfully worked through it.

I wish some of the more experienced folks could resist the urge to start these debates over what likely turns out to be trivial details. As I believe Howard asked, in a year will it matter whether the dog was CCd to "here" first rather than "sit?"

Probably not, but put yourself in my shoes or the shoes of any of the less experienced and knowledgeable trainers who are here trying to learn how not to screw up a lifelong pet, hunting companion, and possible successful test/trial dog. What do you think the reaction is when two respected individuals completely disagree and, at least at the outset, make it sound like if you do it the other way you are really messing up? Can you say paralysis by analysis?

I realize that it can be very difficult to explain a very complicated process in a way a novice can understand it; I face this all day every day with clients. One of the first lessons I learned in my business was never to disagree with another professional in front of the client. They have little way of knowing who is "right," and it paralyzes them. And, if you are the one who caused the disagreement, and thus caused the discomfort to your client, you are very likely now looking at a former client. 

This is not exactly on all-fours with the situation here, but the point is that many of us novices don't have the background to really evaluate what is said, much less the confidence to know that whichever way we go it is likely to come out right if we will stick to a structured program.

Just my thoughts as a novice trying not to screw up my scoundrel of a pup. I welcome all comments.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> P.S. I don't mind if anyone mentions thier video's or plans, especially if they are dealing out free advice!


But there are rules against this due to the fact RTF has sponsors on this forum - if people want to pimp their wares then they need to consider a sponsorship.

If someone asks a specific question about a program, well of course answering the question is okay, but if within that answer it says you need to buy this DVD or book, too - well that's advertising. Trust me there is a way to answer questions about a specific program without pushing one's products!

Then starting threads so you can discuss a training subject only to turn around and pimp a new DVD on the specific subject is just a blatant disregard of the rules.

FOM


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

as with rookie 2 posts back i seem to get a little confused with what we are gaining with this back and forth rhetoric i myself in the 90's did very well for myself breeding and starting a few pups the walters way switched jobs 12 hrs. a day 7 days a week of course dogs situation took back seat. I not only see what you say but starting back up has been so hard for me due to 15 yrs absence older and health only being 53 health in my mind schouldn't be a problem but unfortunately it is (big deal!) My point is I in the last 12 months I have decided to do something I truly love and relish all the info I pick up through forums like this particular one and have read post from individuals sharing exeriences about particular methods cd's and so on so it's ok for them to express but not someone who sells a product and pushes what he believes. I have spent in the last 12 mo. 14,000.00 dolars on two pups and equipment to follow a dream and am considering teaching cd's so evan you in particular you feel free to tell me anything and everything on why i schould buy you're methods and every one else feel free to do the same as freedom is as special to me as these two pups are. Also am looking for SMARTWORKS and LARDY or Other cd's available used if possible, hope this made since as it does to me. thank you


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

bumper52 said:


> I am getting ready to CC another dog. I have always used Lardy's methods in the past. I noticed that Evan CC to here first, which is different than Lardy. Is there an advantage to this? I would welcome your thoughts.


So to answer your question the answer is absolutely definatly without a doubt MAYBE.....Ha Just go with what you know I say. I personaly am Followin TRT. I liked how starting with SIT created a lag that lead into being able to enforce HERE. I can not give an opinion for the other side as I have never seen the Smartworks method. 

This Thread has been up for a few days have you chosen what method to use? Keep us posted.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

RookieTrainer said:


> I wish some of the more experienced folks could resist the urge to start these debates over what likely turns out to be trivial details. As I believe Howard asked, in a year will it matter whether the dog was CCd to "here" first rather than "sit?"
> 
> Probably not, but put yourself in my shoes or the shoes of any of the less experienced and knowledgeable trainers who are here trying to learn how not to screw up a lifelong pet, hunting companion, and possible successful test/trial dog. What do you think the reaction is when two respected individuals completely disagree and, at least at the outset, make it sound like if you do it the other way you are really messing up? Can you say paralysis by analysis?


This is a bit of a twist on what I thought was one of the more valuable contributions of RTF-getting the opinions of respected individuals.

In the first paragraph above you are implying that when a beginner asks "which of two procedures from different programs to follow", that the experienced people shoudn't answer unless they agree? Clearly not all programs are the same. Does this mean the OP shouldn't ask question when they see different procedures or that whoever answers frist should have the last word? 

In your second paragragh above, are you again saying two respected individuals should not state their views if opposing? Frankly, I think it's almost irrelevant if two *un-respected* individuals agree or disagree. While they and all beginners are certainly entitled to have and express their views, do you really care what they are if you have a technical question that is about an procedure.

I am inclined not to respond to a topic if many others do and I agree with their responses. However, I am most inclined to respond to a question if I feel nobody has given a good or a complete answer. I am also inclined to respond if I feel somebody (and I don't care who it is) has responded with an answer that I disagree with or I have extensive alternate experience with. 

Why would I do that? It would be because I think the dogs deserve trainers to learn, know and practice fair and effective and efficient methods. If I think I could help and I think the topic deserves more attention, I would be inclined to answer. 

If the respondants are truly respected it is because their opinions are valued, and hopefully they can back them up with a good track record of success. If they respond simply to debate an insignificant point, they probably don't stay respected for long. Those on RTF that have lost respect for this reason are the ones that need to control themselves.

AND, I have told many fellow trainers, *"Think about it but don't get paralysis from analysis"* . That is invariably a self-imposed response from indecision or lack of knowledge.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> This is a bit of a twist on what I thought was one of the more valuable contributions of RTF-getting the opinions of respected individuals.
> 
> In the first paragraph above you are implying that when a beginner asks "which of two procedures from different programs to follow", that the experienced people shoudn't answer unless they agree? Clearly not all programs are the same. Does this mean the OP shouldn't ask question when they see different procedures or that whoever answers frist should have the last word?
> 
> ...


Dennis. Please don't stop. Your contributions and insight are very much appreciated by me!!!


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## Don Thomsen (Mar 16, 2011)

_originally posted by jamaulden

So to answer your question the answer is absolutely definatly without a doubt MAYBE.....Ha Just go with what you know I say. I personaly am Followin TRT. I liked how starting with SIT created a lag that lead into being able to enforce HERE. I can not give an opinion for the other side as I have never seen the Smartworks method.

This Thread has been up for a few days have you chosen what method to use? Keep us posted.




I am going to start with "sit." The main reason for this is that is how I have done it for many years. I feel comfortable doing it this way. It has lead to very good results. My own general consensus is I don't really believe it makes any difference._


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

I've always CC to "Sit" first but this young dog I have now is renegade , he loves to retrieve, I got tired of nagging him and chasing him to come to me. A couple of short lessons with the collar corrected, that. I don't think it makes any difference if ya CC to Sit or Here first, it has to do with the dog. As a matter of fact with this dog I CC before FF just because the dog. lets just say he had some social issues.........lol


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

43x said:


> I've always CC to "Sit" first but this young dog I have now is renegade , he loves to retrieve, I got tired of nagging him and chasing him to come to me. A couple of short lessons with the collar corrected, that.* I don't think it makes any difference if ya CC to Sit or Here first, it has to do with the dog.* As a matter of fact with this dog I CC before FF just because the dog. lets just say he had some social issues.........lol


I agree with this however my husband and I had an interesting in person conversation about this thread/topic on our drive home last night. We both subscribe to CC to sit first, followed by here but with the exception that it also depends on the dog....

We came to an interesting thought - ever notice with some dogs when you start CC on sit and the dog decides coming back to the handler is the appropriate response to collar pressure when applied? This also seems very pronounced when the dog is in close range. We wondered if that was because the dog was overly drilled on here when first starting CC? I've never really had an issue with this when starting with sit first, but I have seen just the opposite where a dog will sit and not move because it thinks that is the appropriate response to the collar pressure even though it should be either "here".

Just some random thoughts...


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

When I cc to "sit" first, then do "here", the dogs often don't want to remote sit as they want to get to me and stay there. I have to redo remote sit. Anyone else have this occur? This isn't covered in the Lardy dvds. I prefer to do "sit" first.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> When I cc to "sit" first, then do "here", the dogs often don't want to remote sit as they want to get to me and stay there. I have to redo remote sit. Anyone else have this occur? This isn't covered in the Lardy dvds. I prefer to do "sit" first.


I have seen this where the dog is CCed for "sit" only while it is at the handler's side. The dog thinks it needs to move to the handler's side to sit. If you instead use remote sits, and front sits, the dog will understand "sit" means "sit" not just sit at your side.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2011)

What I haven't seen posted (sorry if I missed it) is that there is a big difference IMHO of simply introducing the collar to a pup vs the collar conditioning process in general. With the renegade type pup to which folks have referred may certainly benefit from learning what a "tap" from the collar means when they decide to play keep away, etc, sooner rather than later. 

That is not the same as doing thorough CC as in, say, Lardy's DVD where he starts with Sit.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

FOM said:


> I agree with this however my husband and I had an interesting in person conversation about this thread/topic on our drive home last night. We both subscribe to CC to sit first, followed by here but with the exception that it also depends on the dog....
> 
> We came to an interesting thought - ever notice with some dogs when you start CC on sit and the dog decides coming back to the handler is the appropriate response to collar pressure when applied? This also seems very pronounced when the dog is in close range. We wondered if that was because the dog was overly drilled on here when first starting CC? I've never really had an issue with this when starting with sit first, but I have seen just the opposite where a dog will sit and not move because it thinks that is the appropriate response to the collar pressure even though it should be either "here".
> 
> Just some random thoughts...


I recently began doing yard work with some young dogs. 2 were mine that I CCed 1st to "sit". A couple others were a friends that were CCed 1st to "Here". The dog's "default" response to the collar pressure was completely different. Mine had a nice stable sit. The other dogs always wanted to come in to the handler. Now it may partially be a difference in the standards used. But I can't help but believe part of it is from the order the commands were introduced in Collar conditioning.


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

Wayne Nutt said:


> When I cc to "sit" first, then do "here", the dogs often don't want to remote sit as they want to get to me and stay there. I have to redo remote sit. Anyone else have this occur? This isn't covered in the Lardy dvds. I prefer to do "sit" first.


I've had this too,I take it as a sign that the dog isn't clear about the difference between sit and heel.As I start more puppies with the "Hillman Method" I think that may disappear,his puppies quickly learn to sit away from the handler.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> What I haven't seen posted (sorry if I missed it) is that there is a big difference IMHO of simply introducing the collar to a pup vs the collar conditioning process in general. With the renegade type pup to which folks have referred may certainly benefit from learning what a "tap" from the collar means when they decide to play keep away, etc, sooner rather than later.
> 
> That is not the same as doing thorough CC as in, say, Lardy's DVD where he starts with Sit.


I've heard this referred to as bending. Not sure where the term comes from. I know a pro who does it with all his young dogs well before getting to real CC. This is what I'll do if I ever have another runner. Otherwise, I'll CC to Sit 1st.


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

FOM said:


> I agree with this however my husband and I had an interesting in person conversation about this thread/topic on our drive home last night. We both subscribe to CC to sit first, followed by here but with the exception that it also depends on the dog....
> 
> We came to an interesting thought - ever notice with some dogs when you start CC on sit and the dog decides coming back to the handler is the appropriate response to collar pressure when applied? This also seems very pronounced when the dog is in close range. We wondered if that was because the dog was overly drilled on here when first starting CC? I've never really had an issue with this when starting with sit first, but I have seen just the opposite where a dog will sit and not move because it thinks that is the appropriate response to the collar pressure even though it should be either "here".
> 
> Just some random thoughts...


When I CC Reese my now 12 mo CLM, when we were on our 3rd or 4th day doing here and sit together a few times I remember he did kindof a hoppy heely sit move when we were doing short remote sits. I figured out that my pace was a little quick so I slowed down and it cleared up. But that was the day after we CC to here I wonder if there was some confusion there. Hmm But if you have seen the end of Lardys CC dvd he makes a good point:

Our dogs arent being judged on CCing. As long as they relate the correction to the handler you can then move on to Indirect pressure and the rest of your traing program. (Im Paraphrasing) But that was the point.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt
> When I cc to "sit" first, then do "here", the dogs often don't want to remote sit as they want to get to me and stay there. I have to redo remote sit. Anyone else have this occur? This isn't covered in the Lardy dvds. I prefer to do "sit" first.





Doug Main said:


> *I have seen this where the dog is CCed for "sit" only while it is at the handler's side. The dog thinks it needs to move to the handler's side to sit. If you instead use remote sits, and front sits, the dog will understand "sit" means "sit" not just sit at your side.*


Like




.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2011)

captainjack said:


> I've heard this referred to as bending. Not sure where the term comes from. I know a pro who does it with all his young dogs well before getting to real CC. This is what I'll do if I ever have another runner. Otherwise, I'll CC to Sit 1st.


Yep, I just didn't want to throw another new term out there and skeer anyone.  Pat Nolan is (or at least was, don't know if he's been influenced by Hillman yet) big on this though I don't know if he coined the phrase or not. 

A friend of mine demonstrated this on my 16 week old pup 10 years ago so it's nothing new but maybe it has gained more attention in the last few years and now has an official name associated with it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

My message must have not been clear. I teach remote sit as part of the cc to sit process. And I teach front sit.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> When I cc to "sit" first, then do "here", the dogs often don't want to remote sit as they want to get to me and stay there. I have to redo remote sit. Anyone else have this occur? This isn't covered in the Lardy dvds. I prefer to do "sit" first.


 
Wayne

I have seen this happen also but it's usually not a big deal and is easily remedied in a session or two. 

The way I CC now the pup has learned side sit and front sit and does a lot of remote sitting while I walk around and even while I throw short Stand alone marks. My very first "sit" nick "sit" and perhaps the next 5-6 are done with the pup in a remote sit. There may even be a bumper thrown in advance because by now the pup is very steady to a short stand alone throw. I might return to him to send, or not or pick it up. In any case the intro to CC on sit is a simple and easy process. Pup learns to accept the nick because he is already sitting. Of course there are a ton of freebies. I don't get any of that slow clammy sitting and I don't do that hold it down to sit stuff from a standing position. I find that sure creates as slow sit!!!

Now these pups are only 4-5 mos old and this process is in the field and occurs over a lengthy period while doing other fun things. Eventually, I do the "here" nick "here" conditioning after doing it from his reliable remote sit first without a nick.

The first pup that I did with this was so smooth and reliable I thought, OK, when he gets bigger, I'll have to re-do it sorta a la Lardy becasue he can't be truly collar and pressure conditioned. Well guess what? He was thoroughly done and I never needed to. Pup two was exactly the same.

I'm sure some of you will see Hillmann influences here although I wouldn't say he would describe exactly as I have.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Dennis. You're right it only takes a couple of sessions to repeat cc to sit. But I was just wondering if others had seen this before. I haven't tried the Hillman fetch process yet. Maybe for the next pup. 
I have stayed with the Lardy method on Hank (by Pirate). He is my son's dog. He came to me at 7mo but developed a problem with his knees. He had to be limited in his exercise for three months. But the xrays a couple of weeks ago gave him a clean bill of health. So at appx 11 mo. I was a bit afraid to try the Hillman approach. 
When I get my new personal pup (Pirate X Cha Cha) I will give Hillman's technique a try. The breeding hasn't happened yet. I guess she is slow in coming into season. Looks like it will be mid Feb at the earliest before I can get the puppy. I am getting anxious. The money is burning a hole in my pocket. LOL.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

jamaulden said:


> So to answer your question the answer is absolutely definatly without a doubt MAYBE.....Ha Just go with what you know I say. I personaly am Followin TRT. I liked how starting with SIT created a lag that lead into being able to enforce HERE. *I can not give an opinion for the other side as I have never seen the Smartworks method*.
> .


here ya go Jam,
click- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDM78DYARc&feature=youtu.be

.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Doug Main said:


> I recently began doing yard work with some young dogs. 2 were mine that I CCed 1st to "sit". A couple others were a friends that were CCed 1st to "Here". The dog's "default" response to the collar pressure was completely different. Mine had a nice stable sit. The other dogs always wanted to come in to the handler. Now it may partially be a difference in the standards used. But I can't help but believe part of it is from the order the commands were introduced in Collar conditioning.


I have seen and believe this as well Doug.


.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> here ya go Jam,
> click- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDM78DYARc&feature=youtu.be
> 
> .


Although it should be mentioned that this is only a clip of it, and not the entire course. I'm always concerned about those who take a sliver and assume they have real timber.

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> Although it should be mentioned that this is only a clip of it, and not the entire course. I'm always concerned about those who take a sliver and assume they have real timber.
> 
> Evan


I used that clip Evan 'cause it was easy for me to find with rtf search button. You had posted it in the past.

.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Wayne
> 
> I have seen this happen also but it's usually not a big deal and is easily remedied in a session or two.
> 
> ...


Agreed, slooooooow!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Ken Bora said:


> here ya go Jam,
> click- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDM78DYARc&feature=youtu.be
> 
> .


Hey Ken, When yesterday I posted the following (including the apology to Bora and Evan), trust me it didn't look like this youtube video!!! How was I to know?:razz:

yesterday's post:
_I even had the pup (7 mos) out and he showed how important "sit" was by not breaking on his first mallard. But heck, when I said "here" let's go home", he looked at me "like no way-this is too much fun!" _

_I held up the mallards and he came "here" like he had a rope on!!! Sorry Bora and Evan-couldn't resist!!_


_Cheers_


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## tankerlab (Feb 26, 2008)

P.S. I don't mind if anyone mentions thier video's or plans, especially if they are dealing out free advice![/QUOTE]




Duckquilizer said:


> I thought the light bulb going "OFF" is a bad thing. I want the lights "ON"!  I don’t quite get the Pro-tude here. I kind of like hearing different opinions, including Evans and the offended lot too! I have most of the big name videos, Lardy, Smartfetch, Voight, Etc... They all have great points, ideals, and reasoning. It is helping me greatly in forming my own training ability and plans. On the other hand, arguing about your stance on world peace doesn't help the rookie too much. THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR ADVICE!
> 
> 
> P.S. I don't mind if anyone mentions their video's or plans, especially if they are dealing out free advice!


Something you said here made me jump in at this point... All the DIFFERENT material... DIFFERENT Ways to get from A to Z as someone else posted earlier. I am in no position to tell others what to do but I can say what has worked for me. And that was Smartworks. I first had and watched Lardy's series of CD's. I was confused back then. (More than I am now...) Then I tried Smartworks and it made sense. Easier to understand. Now I review Lardy's material again and the Light bulb goes "ON" in my head. 

When I was a youth growing up my Grandfather and Uncle dedicated their whole lives to raising Champion Arabian Horses and Horse shows. Anyone ever hear of Ruffsaur and Ruffles out of Raffles? Those were Horses My Grandfather and Uncle had. A lot is similar training horses and dogs. Even more similar is the Handlers / Owners of dog people and horse people with all the Jabs and "I know more than you" / I'll prove you wrong... / If you don't do it like I did you will fail... Chest thumpin Bullcrap! When I first started with Retriever training and running dogs a good friend of mine made a very true statement... You can put three retriever trainers in a room together and no matter which of the two you pick they will say the other guy is wrong....

Thank You Evan for giving advice on here and being willing to help. THOSE THAT ARE WISE ENOUGH AND NOT TOO PROUD TO ACCEPT IT OR GIVE IT A TRY WILL BE BLESSED. Is your way the ONLY way? No. But it works...


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

"Chest thumping bull crap", or CTBC is a "given" for some here on the forum.
But for some its disguised and presented in the form of CtBc and others use CtbC....................;-)

john


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

This thread was very interesting to me. It started out with the OP asking a question. Then 2 different respected trainers were having a civil discussion about their methods being different until a few others jumped in and trashed the thread. Same story, second verse. The same few who have trashed other threads recently. The "gang" mentality on here is really out of hand. If you can't think of something productive to add to the discussion, please let the discussion go on without your comments.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> I used that clip Evan 'cause it was easy for me to find with rtf search button. You had posted it in the past.
> 
> .


I appreciate that Ken. It's not a problem at all. I just wanted to mention it as a caution.


tankerlab said:


> Thank You Evan for giving advice on here and being willing to help. THOSE THAT ARE WISE ENOUGH AND NOT TOO PROUD TO ACCEPT IT OR GIVE IT A TRY WILL BE BLESSED. Is your way the ONLY way? No. But it works...


Thank you for those kind words. That is reward enough for the effort.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> What I haven't seen posted (sorry if I missed it) *is that there is a big difference IMHO of simply introducing the collar to a pup vs the collar conditioning process in general.* With the renegade type pup to which folks have referred may certainly benefit from learning what a "tap" from the collar means when they decide to play keep away, etc, sooner rather than later.
> 
> What is that difference ?
> After the dog has been conditioned to accept and appropriately respond to a collar stimulation on an action, no further simulations simply to "condition" are necessary and only those necessary to "reinforce" the command are appropriate. The renegade type pup in question should collar conditioned, be taught here, then HERE should be reinforced with the collar
> ...


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> When I cc to "sit" first, then do "here", the dogs often don't want to remote sit as they want to get to me and stay there. I have to redo remote sit. Anyone else have this occur? This isn't covered in the Lardy dvds. I prefer to do "sit" first.


 
I've taught remote sit to dogs that were cc'd to sit first and delinquents that had to be cc'd to here first. Seems like they all want to come sit right beside the handler when they're first learning remote sit. Oh and as long as we're pimping programs: IMO the best written, easiest to follow how-to method especially for beginners or first-timers teaching remote sit is Pat Nolan's; he has an easy-to-follow article on his Ponderosa Kennels website. No posts needed and nothing but a short rope ;-)


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

john fallon said:


> What is that difference ?
> After the dog has been conditioned to accept and appropriately respond to a collar stimulation on an action, no further simulations simply to "condition" are necessary and only those necessary to "reinforce" the command are appropriate.
> 
> john


*BAM!!!!*

Bulls eye!!!


*RK*


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> This thread was very interesting to me. It started out with the OP asking a question. Then 2 different respected trainers were having a civil discussion about their methods being different until a few others jumped in and trashed the thread. Same story, second verse. The same few who have trashed other threads recently. The "gang" mentality on here is really out of hand. If you can't think of something productive to add to the discussion, please let the discussion go on without your comments.
> __________________





> "Chest thumping bull crap", or CTBC is a "given" for some here on the forum.
> But for some its disguised and presented in the form of CtBc and others use CtbC


 
I think maby thats so in some cases. I also think thats can be part of the human condition.. I also think we are to quick to critisize just based on a few comments or observations via video's. I also believe this happens out of enthusiasm for the discussion and not an evil motivation to put down a participant most of the time. But there's alsways a sensitive person to make it seem that way.

I have found in my jouney that most retriever people are pretty nice weather you like their personality or not,, has or should have nothing to do with it. We need to appreciate the different personalities and not be so sensitive about every little word typed on an internet forum.

Sometimes we experienced retriever people and dog people really yern for an in depth discussion deep down,,,,,and I believe this can lead to the nit picking even though it has nothing to do with the original posters question. We so want to impart depth and understanding to the OP which can only be imparted over time coupled with experiences
Unfortunately a civil  in depth discussion of dogs is an impossible task on an internet. The discussion of weather to do sit or here first can be a good discussion. Wayne Nutt said it best. It depends on the dog. Also it depends what your goals are with the dog. and ect.ect.



Pete


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

First Retrieversonline and Evan, thanks for your discussion of your differences of opinion on some points and agreement on others. personally, I don't care whether Rex Carr said "sit" before "here" or "here" before "sit" or whether he said one at age 20 and the other at age 60. I do have Rex Carr's book on handling which has been a great help. I would not be surprised if one way worked best for one dog and the other worked best for another. 
While I have not used Evan's Smartworks system as a training system per se, I do own the set and have gleaned much from them. Retriever, if yu have written any, I would love to buy them also. 

If the two of you sat down and wrote a comprehensive book of both your agreement and differences on your concepts of training, I for one would buy it in a heartbeat. At least then I would not have to read part of some posts that add nothing to the discussion. And by the way, my personal choice is a book and not a video


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

caryalsobrook said:


> First Retrieversonline and Evan, thanks for your discussion of your differences of opinion on some points and agreement on others. personally, I don't care whether Rex Carr said "sit" before "here" or "here" before "sit" or whether he said one at age 20 and the other at age 60. I do have Rex Carr's book on handling which has been a great help. I would not be surprised if one way worked best for one dog and the other worked best for another.
> While I have not used Evan's Smartworks system as a training system per se, I do own the set and have gleaned much from them. Retriever, if yu have written any, I would love to buy them also.
> 
> If the two of you sat down and wrote a comprehensive book of both your agreement and differences on your concepts of training, I for one would buy it in a heartbeat. At least then I would not have to read part of some posts that add nothing to the discussion. And by the way, my personal choice is a book and not a video


FYI... RetrieversONLINE is Dennis Voigt


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> > I recently began doing yard work with some young dogs. 2 were mine that I CCed 1st to "sit". A couple others were a friends that were CCed 1st to "Here". The dog's "default" response to the collar pressure was completely different. Mine had a nice stable sit. The other dogs always wanted to come in to the handler. Now it may partially be a difference in the standards used. But I can't help but believe part of it is from the order the commands were introduced in Collar conditioning
> 
> 
> .
> ...


Do you not think that the dog _may_ be out of balance between the two commands and simply require some further training in the one _vs_ the other?

john


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Do you not think that the dog _may_ be out of balance between the two commands and simply require some further training in the one _vs_ the other?
> 
> john



I agree with John.. What happens when you call "Here" and the dog sit's? Is it because you taught "Sit" first, or the dog is simply confused and not trained properly to respond to the "Here" command?

I think the Chest thumping deal is at play!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

caryalsobrook said:


> First Retrieversonline and Evan, thanks for your discussion of your differences of opinion on some points and agreement on others. personally, I don't care whether Rex Carr said "sit" before "here" or "here" before "sit" or whether he said one at age 20 and the other at age 60. I do have Rex Carr's book on handling which has been a great help. I would not be surprised if one way worked best for one dog and the other worked best for another.
> While I have not used Evan's Smartworks system as a training system per se, I do own the set and have gleaned much from them. Retriever, if yu have written any, I would love to buy them also.
> 
> If the two of you sat down and wrote a comprehensive book of both your agreement and differences on your concepts of training, I for one would buy it in a heartbeat. At least then I would not have to read part of some posts that add nothing to the discussion. And by the way, my personal choice is a book and not a video


I have written about 600 articles on retrievers and a lot of them discuss the different approaches and their pros and cons. The book with my DVD also has some such discussion. I can't advertise either here until I finish looking into a Sponsor's banner with Chris:razz:

I really like books also but the best combo seems to be video and book- each has its unique benefits. 

PS. I'm guessing Evan has better things to do than write a book with me about differences in concepts of training. I know I have, but, if you hang around RTF enough you'll get lots of different opinions.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Byron Musick said:


> I agree with John.. What happens when you call "Here" and the dog sit's? Is it because you taught "Sit" first, or the dog is simply confused and not trained properly to respond to the "Here" command?
> 
> I think the Chest thumping deal is at play!


You ever blow your whistle in very high wind or lunging water at long distances to a dog that doesn't hear it? Dog keeps doing whatever it was he was doing, so you whistle-nick-whistle. What does the dog do? Why does he do that instead of something else?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> You ever blow your whistle in very high wind or lunging water at long distances to a dog that doesn't hear it? Dog keeps doing whatever it was he was doing, so you whistle-nick-whistle. What does the dog do? Why does he do that instead of something else?



Are you advocation a "cold" burn in such a situation? Perhaps the combination of* not *hearing the whistle and the cold burn is what is driving the dog back?



john


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Are you advocation a "cold" burn in such a situation? Perhaps the combination of* not *hearing the whistle and the cold burn is what is driving the dog back?
> 
> 
> 
> john


So your saying your dog will drive back if you do that? 

I know what my dog will do. 

Don't pretend for 1 second this situation has not happened to you, unless you have not trained for a FT.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> So your saying your dog will drive back if you do that?
> 
> I know what my dog will do.
> 
> Don't pretend for 1 second this situation has not happened to you, unless you have not trained for a FT.


If the dog does not hear the whistle there is as good a chance as not that the dog will continue to drive deep on the "nick".

BTW what will your dog do?

john


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

savage25xtreme said:


> You ever blow your whistle in very high wind or lunging water at long distances to a dog that doesn't hear it? Dog keeps doing whatever it was he was doing, so you whistle-nick-whistle. What does the dog do? Why does he do that instead of something else?


What are you asking? I am discussing the collar condition training process, which is not done at long distances with extreme factors. As far as your question goes, I had the same thing happen once, my dog could not hear my whistle, was headed for the road, I burned, she sat. I also trained her to the Here command first. What is your point? BTW, I only force back (or FTP) with nicks.

My point is which command is trained first is not the issue. If you follow Lardy's training program, as an example, he states when you first start mixing commands the dog may get confused... Regardless of training programs you have to work through it and teach the commands seperately and then bring them together.

Downplaying a training process simply because folks enjoy doing that does not make it right. Purchase the entire program, evaluate it, then discuss the issues, then RTF will gain from it. IMHO.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Byron Musick said:


> What are you asking? I am discussing the collar condition training process, which is not done at long distances with extreme factors. As far as your question goes, I had the same thing happen once, my dog could not hear my whistle, was headed for the road, I nicked, she sat. I also trained her to the Here command first. What is your point?


I think how you collar condition a dog plays an important roll in the scenario I described. I think when a dog is confused they will resort back to what has been most engrained into their head as a *correct* response to pressure in the field.

My dog will sit. Sit is the single most enforceable and important command you will give a dog, IMHO.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

caryalsobrook said:


> .... Retriever, if yu have written any, I would love to buy them also.....





savage25xtreme said:


> FYI... RetrieversONLINE is Dennis Voigt





RetrieversONLINE said:


> I have written about 600 articles on retrievers and a lot of them discuss the different approaches and their pros and cons. The book with my DVD also has some such discussion. I can't advertise either here until I finish looking into a Sponsor's banner with Chris:razz:


but I am under no such restrictions 
click - http://ybs.jaybar.com/index.php?pag...category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=66
　
.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

savage25xtreme said:


> I think how you collar condition a dog plays an important roll in the scenario I described. I think when a dog is confused they will resort back to what has been most engrained into their head as a *correct* response to pressure in the field.
> 
> My dog will sit. Sit is the single most enforceable and important command you will give a dog, IMHO.



I certainly agree with your point. Take the mini-t, T or the TT, when we bring it all together, when you get your dog to stop (after being sent 90 yards) ten yards from the pile, to do that won't matter which command you taught first, but I bet SIT will have to be engrained more to stop that bumper monster from blowing you off and continuing to the pile! 

I've said to much, time to go back into hiding, I just hope we don't run off folks who are trying to help, regardless of the Bannor deal.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> but I am under no such restrictions
> click - http://ybs.jaybar.com/index.php?pag...category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=66
> 
> .


THanks for the help


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

how much is a dang sponsors banner anyhow? i may buy one for evan and dennis just so everyone will shut up the ya-ya-ya about dudes trying to make a living. IMHO whether we like or agree with either on this or that subject all they are trying their dead level best to do is help folks train a dog. i have done the math in posts here before and no one is getting rich. even though we all feel the sun rises and sets on us and our dogs we are a miniscule sub-culture. everyone remotely interested in retriever training worldwide could buy smartworks, training retrievers alone and subscribe to retrievers online and these two might be able to own a nice condo at "the villages" in florida at retirement. give these wonderfully generous men a break!


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## tankerlab (Feb 26, 2008)

john fallon said:


> If the dog does not hear the whistle there is as good a chance as not that the dog will continue to drive deep on the "nick".
> 
> BTW what will your dog do?
> 
> john


+1...........


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

roseberry said:


> how much is a dang sponsors banner anyhow? i may buy one for evan and dennis just so everyone will shut up the ya-ya-ya about dudes trying to make a living. IMHO whether we like or agree with either on this or that subject all they are trying their dead level best to do is help folks train a dog. i have done the math in posts here before and no one is getting rich. even though we all feel the sun rises and sets on us and our dogs we are a miniscule sub-culture. everyone remotely interested in retriever training worldwide could buy smartworks, training retrievers alone and subscribe to retrievers online and these two might be able to own a nice condo at "the villages" in florida at retirement. give these wonderfully generous men a break!


John

I'd rather have a cabin in the swamp in Florida but long ago gave up hope for either. But the math says that if I sell 84 extra copies of Training Retrievers Alone above and beyond normal per year becasue of RTF banner, I can break even on the banner. So if I sell 30 more on RTF, I can pay for my gas to Florida and back each year. 

You got the miniscule sub-culture part right!!!

Thanks

PS. Of course if I get a banner, I might have to stop posting because Banner Sponsors rarely do!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Interesting to read the different discussions. I do like it when there is a differing of opinions. From the discussions I can formulate what I would like to try with my own dog in regards to CC. It also helps to hear the problems others are or were having and how these were corrected. 

But again as stressed in earlier threads these comments are not the sole way to training your dog. It also has been stressed to follow a program and stick to it. Get assistance if you need it! And every dog is different so train your dog on individualized basis IMO. What works on one dog may not work on another dog.

Now most of my training to date with my 5 month old pup, Chief has been treat based. He steady sits while doing doubles. He has done puppy casting. He whistle sits when coming in from a setout blind with bumper in his mouth. We are working on the "hold" in the fetch, hold and release commands. We have participated in basic agility class. We are starting more formalized obedience class. He does know how to sit, here, down, stay and heels well.

I have now just started to follow Lardy's DVD on CC with him. Pretty straightforward DVD and very informative! Of course we started with the sit. Makes sense to me though after all "sit" means "sit". IMO. I certainly hope the "here" with CC in Lardy's DVD is a lot easier than the rope method shown on You Tube as I mostly train by myself. 

So thanks Evan and Dennis for the comments and differences on CC. It has been a really interesting thread and even though it took me time to get through the discussions I enjoyed. Thanks to Wayne and others for their issues brought forward and input.

Below Chief in his glory RETRIEVING!


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> So if I sell 30 more on RTF, I can pay for my gas to Florida and back each year.


Well, Thanks to Ken you only need 29 more for that Florida trip!


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

dennis,
at "the villages" you will have lifetime memberships to all the country clubs. this includes the arnold palmer and nancy lopez signature courses. my uncle from new york lives there and there is a lot of tech water on those golf courses. since it's "florida's friendliest hometown" i am sure a little dog training would be ok. however, you will need to lose the horse and travel by golf cart.

there it is!!!! my big idea......a dog training retirement community devolpment. we could have tech ponds, yard work areas, pattern blind setups and fields with all the factors you could imagine. we could have them designed by the pros. "i have a training time for four at the farmer pond tomorrow, want to join me?" bird boys, flyers, buckets of bumpers whenever you want them. every home has air conditioned kennels. whoahhhh, bad idea. i just thought how violent the neighborhood association meetings of a bunch of retired dog people would be.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

IMHO Dennis has walked the walk, and talked the talked, and publishes an excellent magazine, judges, gives seminars and won the darn Canadian National. He comes on this board willingly and discusses topics well beyond what is contained in his DVD about training retrievers alone. And, he never mentions his DVD when he discusses a topic. I think he enjoys an actual discussion where you are not expected to agree with him completely, but give sound rationale for your opinion. He's a sound asset to the board, and it is of little consequence to me whether or not he purchases a banner. But if he does, I'd support his sponsorship wholeheartedly.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> IMHO Dennis has walked the walk, and talked the talked, and publishes an excellent magazine, judges, gives seminars and won the darn Canadian National. He comes on this board willingly and discusses topics well beyond what is contained in his DVD about training retrievers alone. And, he never mentions his DVD when he discusses a topic. I think he enjoys an actual discussion where you are not expected to agree with him completely, but give sound rationale for your opinion. *He's a sound asset to the board, and it is of little consequence to me whether or not he purchases a banner. But if he does, I'd support his sponsorship wholeheartedly*.


*LIKE LIKE LIKE*!!! Me too!!! AND an invite to the best darn water in Illinois with free lodging. 29 now Dennis--my order is going in tonight. I've been wanting that training alone dvd -for some time now.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> IMHO Dennis has walked the walk, and talked the talked, and publishes an excellent magazine, judges, gives seminars and won the darn Canadian National. He comes on this board willingly and discusses topics well beyond what is contained in his DVD about training retrievers alone. And, he never mentions his DVD when he discusses a topic. I think he enjoys an actual discussion where you are not expected to agree with him completely, but give sound rationale for your opinion. He's a sound asset to the board, and it is of little consequence to me whether or not he purchases a banner. But if he does, I'd support his sponsorship wholeheartedly.


I didn't even know he had a dvd. That pretty much is the difference. 

/Paul


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I've had TRA for almost a year now, the manual that comes with it stays in the console of my truck so I can break it out at a moments notice. Good choice on making the manual that size Dennis!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JusticeDog said:


> IMHO Dennis has walked the walk, and talked the talked, and publishes an excellent magazine, judges, gives seminars and won the darn Canadian National. He comes on this board willingly and discusses topics well beyond what is contained in his DVD about training retrievers alone. And, he never mentions his DVD when he discusses a topic. I think he enjoys an actual discussion where you are not expected to agree with him completely, but give sound rationale for your opinion. He's a sound asset to the board, and it is of little consequence to me whether or not he purchases a banner. But if he does, I'd support his sponsorship wholeheartedly.


Yes, yes, yes. Retrievers Online, excellent magazine and the way the site is organized so you can order back issues is also very handy. Lots of great training info that works by someone who is continually developing themselves & learning. TRA, also a valuable enhancement to anyone's training collection.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

www.retrieversonline.com

Is MORE THAN WELL worth the subscription price....THANKS Dennis, please keep contibuting to RTF


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> John
> 
> I'd rather have a cabin in the swamp in Florida but long ago gave up hope for either. But the math says that if I sell 84 extra copies of Training Retrievers Alone above and beyond normal per year becasue of RTF banner, I can break even on the banner. So if I sell 30 more on RTF, I can pay for my gas to Florida and back each year.
> 
> ...



Dennis, I really hope that you continue your effort to discuss your point of view on the rtf. This goes for Evan as well. There are a few people that are predictable in there behavior, no need to point anyone out because we all know who they are, and they know who there are as well. The majority of the folks on here are pleasant and communicate in an ethical manner. I hope you will both continue with your input. I want to hear both sides, if someone has a different opinion I want to hear it. That's what makes this a forum, a conglomerate of people's different opinions. Different opinions is what makes this America, if you don't agree don't piss on someone's opinion. There are conventional trainers, un-conventional trainers, repeat, don't repeat, ect...
All are opinions and all have there merit, depending on your approach. Allow the reader to accept what they want without the bs. I happen to be un-conventional and my ideas aren't taken well with the majority but that's ok! No comment on the sponsorship, but maybe there should be some clear guidelines as to what's acceptable and not?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

champ said:


> Dennis, I really hope that you continue your effort to discuss your point of view on the rtf. This goes for Evan as well. There are a few people that are predictable in there behavior, no need to point anyone out because we all know who they are, and they know who there are as well. The majority of the folks on here are pleasant and communicate in an ethical manner. I hope you will both continue with your input. I want to hear both sides, if someone has a different opinion I want to hear it. That's what makes this a forum, a conglomerate of people's different opinions. Different opinions is what makes this America, if you don't agree don't piss on someone's opinion. There are conventional trainers, un-conventional trainers, repeat, don't repeat, ect...
> All are opinions and all have there merit, depending on your approach. Allow the reader to accept what they want without the bs. I happen to be un-conventional and my ideas aren't taken well with the majority but that's ok! No comment on the sponsorship, but maybe there should be some clear guidelines as to what's acceptable and not?


There are pretty clear and specific guidelines for sponsors and non-sponsors that are trying to market their stuff without paying. 

Pimping your product with every post and with every response recommending a book or dvd or some other "marketable item" whether its a winger or some other training item is over-stepping the bounds and most reasonable people know that.

WRL


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

WRL said:


> There are pretty clear and specific guidelines for sponsors and non-sponsors that are trying to market their stuff without paying.
> 
> Pimping your product with every post and with every response recommending a book or dvd or some other "marketable item" whether its a winger or some other training item is over-stepping the bounds and most reasonable people know that.
> 
> WRL


IMO I did not think that was happening so much in this thread. However there has been other threads - questions have been asked by the person selling the product. In this thread I believe both Evan and Dennis provided us with two differing points of view on CC. And a discussion ensued.IMO


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> .... if I sell 30 more on RTF, I can pay for my gas to Florida and back each year!!





Byron Musick said:


> Well, Thanks to Ken you only need 29 more for that Florida trip!


I also have the DVD / book set. Full disclosure is I scent Dennis an RTF P.M. and asked him if he wanted to trade some Pure Vermont Maple Syrup from trees I hug myself for a used copy and book he might have kicking about in the clutter on the desk. He replied that indeed he did have ONE DVD and BOOK set on the desk and it had been opened and had a folded page I think he said. Proofread before shipped to the masses??? So he and I agreed on the RTF Barter and I went of to the pack and ship place and being the certified dipstick that I am I clearly wrote on the form "Pure Vermont Maple Syrup from Ken Bora" and shipped it off. Well when all was said and done didn't the Canadian Government hit Dennis with a bill!!! They have some pickune thing about shipping Pure Vermont Maple Syrup INTO Canada. I mean it was securely boxed. If I had labeled it "Smartwork DVD" none would be the wiser and Dennis would have been like WTF? when he saw the label. In hindsight I should have done that. So when you all purchase those needed DVD's. I very much enjoy mine. Some eve when I'm liquored up on Crown I'll apply fingers to keyboard and do a review on product review page of RTF. Anyway I again digress when he gets to Florida I'm gonna send him another box of Pure Vermont Maple Syrup to make up for him having to pay the Canadian Government for an RTF barter!!!!! And because of this very post and me being a certified dipstick I will write "Smartworks DVD's" on the box.
Further full disclosure I have also sold Pure Vermont Maple Syrup to Evan Graham and during the transaction he also gave one of his CD's. It seemed very well done. I actually no longer have it. I gave it away here on RTF when I gave away my VHS Mike Lardy DVD's
So Buy the DVD and get Dennis to Florida so I can send him some more Pure Vermont Maple Syrup!!!! 
.


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