# Force Fetch sensitive gums?



## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Honestly I don't know what todo I'm so disappointed. My dog was doing absolutely great with force fetch his gums are red and if I even touch his bottom teeth he jerks away or if I touch the bottom I his chin he jerks away. We're forcing to pile and he's even doing great with it. He ALWAYS delivers to hand never drops it and all of a sudden today he kept dropping the bumper at my feet I'd eat pinch and say fetch and HOLD but he won't hold it or long he just lets it slowly slowly slip further out of his mouth and then he drops it and then we repeat. Guys please help should I hold off on it for awhile and see what I an do about his gums or is that even it.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Any time your dog has a physical condition that interferes with training or is exacerbated by the training you should back off until the condition clears.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

How do I know for sure it's the sensitive gums causing it? Take him to the vet?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Just give him 2-3 days off. Lot less expensive than a vet visit.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Granddaddy said:


> Just give him 2-3 days off. Lot less expensive than a vet visit.


Ok should I go ahead and buy him some stuff to help with the guns and teeth instead of vet?

thanks for the help man


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Don't know enough about his condition to suggest he needs meds...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

D4L, 

My personal rule is "when in doubt, go see the vet"

You can always train later.

Make sure your dog is healthy, then focus on training later.


There are so many unknowns and unanswered questions that nobody will be able to accurately help your dog based upon a few sentences written here.

Good luck! Chris


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

My bad guys. He is 14 months old. So he's got all his permanent teeth.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

If his gums are a different color than normal and he's that hand-shy, and he's finished teething, I'd have him looked at immediately.

I don't recall whose dog, but someone had a dog get a roof of a mouth impaled on a broken duck wing during a retrieve. The dog showed immediate reaction, but overcame and kept working. Eventually, it turned into a nasty infection. (at least this is my memory's version of the story)

When in doubt....go see the vet. My opinion... Chris


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Well this happened when we starting teaching fetch will the collar. He kept acting like his teeth wee hurting very bad an gums were bleeding. We got past that. Just today it came back he's been holding for running FTP then all of a sudden today he was dropping the bumper at my feet and I'd tell him to hold and he could only hold for a certain amount of time before it would slowly slowly start to slide further out of his mouth then he would just drop it. At the end of the session I checked his gums ad they were super red and wouldn't let me touch his chin or bottom teeth. Now his gums are still dark pink by his teeth and won't let me touch. So I'm definitely going to take him to the vet. I really dont think after all this training he would just start disobeying me and ignore me on holding. I mean I got a new dog and all but I don't think he'd be that mad to quit in me haha but I'm gonna take him to the vet Monday guys and give him a couple days off thanks lol


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> If his gums are a different color than normal and he's that hand-shy, and he's finished teething, I'd have him looked at immediately.
> 
> I don't recall whose dog, but someone had a dog get a roof of a mouth impaled on a broken duck wing during a retrieve. The dog showed immediate reaction, but overcame and kept working. Eventually, it turned into a nasty infection. (at least this is my memory's version of the story)
> 
> When in doubt....go see the vet. My opinion... Chris



If it's the same guy I know his dog ended up with an infection that caused the loss of vision in one eye.

Get dog to vet.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

I would go to the vet but they don't open until Monday. I'm trying to upload a picture but its not working. I took a picture of his gums and teeth and he had a bump like scar on his lip.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Dogs4life,

Non of us has seen your dog so it's very hard to give specific advice. However if you suspect that a physical condition is getting in the way of training, but you are not sure, then it's time to knock off and get a Vet check. 

There is a rule of thumb in all dog training and it runs like this ... "If it's not working, stop." Sometimes it's the dog having an off day, sometimes we as trainers aren't up for it; sometimes who knows? So don't ever fall into the trap of believing that we (you) are infallible and the dog is an unquestioning robot. My old mentor used to say "If he's in the kennel he won't learn anything he shouldn't". Which is another way of saying that stuff happens and we needn't worry too much when it does, just give it a hard think and then relax. 

Eug


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Well I really hope it is because of sensitive gums and not him blowing me off out of nowhere


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Dogs4life, do you have access to a 24hr emerg. vet? Not saying its an emergency but atleast in my mind it has always cleared my head.been there plenty of times and, not cheap but is piece of mind.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

blackasmollases said:


> Dogs4life, do you have access to a 24hr emerg. vet? Not saying its an emergency but atleast in my mind it has always cleared my head.been there plenty of times and, not cheap but is piece of mind.


No I don't I really wish I did. I'm just saying I don't see why it would be anything else but the gums. Ill hopefully find out Monday, his gums may be fine by Monday so I don't really know how this is gonna go


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

Just giving ideas, really hope it is nothing. I'm kinda spoiled, have one 10 min away. Maybe I skimmed over it but how old is the pup?

Just reread the whole thing got it.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

If you're gonna train up you should get used to getting blown off once in awhile. 

What was that sore from on the dogs jowl in the pic (maybe on the other site)?


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

blackasmollases said:


> Just giving ideas, really hope it is nothing. I'm kinda spoiled, have one 10 min away. Maybe I skimmed over it but how old is the pup?
> 
> Just reread the whole thing got it.


I really hope it's nothing to man. I'm gonna go get him a Nylabone and some dental treats for him then see what the vet says. Like I said I hope it's just the gums and not him blowing me off which I doubt because I don't see why he'd hold for this long then just say screw you I ain't doing it lol ill keep ya guys updated!

thanks!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

*once you rule out health issues....* Have you been praising this dog enough when he does well? If it is all about force, you can get a dog pouty and sloppy and and just not very happy to be doing what you ask. Forcing a dog is NOT just about force.

edit to add , I have had numerous dogs that would end up with bloody gums when forcing to the pile, as the go full bore, sliding through the grass, grabbing the bumper. When the dog is stressed be it from stress or heat or activity , the gums will be more red


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

HNTFSH said:


> If you're gonna train up you should get used to getting blown off once in awhile.
> 
> What was that sore from on the dogs jowl in the pic (maybe on the other site)?


yah I understand that but I don't see why he would randomly start doing this. Jut start dropping the bumper when he's had a great hold for a long time. Idk though. I just have him a dental treat and he seemed o have trouble eating it looked like it was hurting him but he ate it.

And I don't know what that's from he has one on his cheek also.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Bridget Bodine said:


> *once you rule out health issues....* Have you been praising this dog enough when he does well? If it is all about force, you can get a dog pouty and sloppy and and just not very happy to be doing what you ask. Forcing a dog is NOT just about force.
> 
> edit to add , I have had numerous dogs that would end up with bloody gums when forcing to the pile, as the go full bore, sliding through the grass, grabbing the bumper. When the dog is stressed be it from stress or heat or activity , the gums will be more red


I give him praise everytime. I understand what you're talking about though. And he was getting bloody gums before forcing to pile he was getting them when we first started hold and was ear pinching.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dogs4life said:


> yah I understand that but I don't see why he would randomly start doing this. Jut start dropping the bumper when he's had a great hold for a long time. Idk though. I just have him a dental treat and he seemed o have trouble eating it looked like it was hurting him but he ate it.
> 
> And I don't know what that's from he has one on his cheek also.


If he's having discolored gums and apparent mouth pain, maybe now's not the time to be giving him chew toys and dental treats. 

His desire to chew may kick in, but if there's a problem, I doubt it's going to make anything heal quicker or feel better.

Chris


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Chris Atkinson said:


> If he's having discolored gums and apparent mouth pain, maybe now's not the time to be giving him chew toys and dental treats.
> 
> His desire to chew may kick in, but if there's a problem, I doubt it's going to make anything heal quicker or feel better.
> 
> Chris


alright I'll get him to the vet Monday and see what they say. Hopefully good news.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Dogs have a high threshold for pain. If your dog is preventing you to touch, then it is really important to seek a vet and stop everything. No chew stuff....


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Dogs4life said:


> And I don't know what that's from he has one on his cheek also.










[/quote]


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Dogs4life said:


> No I don't I really wish I did. I'm just saying I don't see why it would be anything else but the gums. Ill hopefully find out Monday, his gums may be fine by Monday so I don't really know how this is gonna go


Don't know how it works where you are, but if I called my vet today I would get referred to our 24-hour emergency clinic, which I have actually had to use before. I would do some calling and find somewhere and somebody that would be willing to take a look. 

This is also a good reason to have your vet's cell number in your phone. I've had to make use of that one before too.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

mitty said:


> Dog is awesome one day, and then the next I wonder if my dog will ever amount to anything.


Glad to hear it wasn't (isn't) just me.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

If it turns out NOT to be his gums then how should I go about this? Try switching bumpers?


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

mitty said:


> Where do you live? Are you working in cold and/or snowy/icy conditions?


Im in Oklahoma. It's only about 30 degrees in the morning then 50 degrees in the evening. Not to bad.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

There should be plenty of experienced retriever folks nearby as well as some professional help.

I'd strongly urge you to seek out an experienced local trainer to get some meaningful input.

There are so many variables and those reading this thread have so little detail that any advice is just going to be a "guess".

You only get one chance to do it right the first time. 

Good luck! Chris


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Chris Atkinson said:


> There should be plenty of experienced retriever folks nearby as well as some professional help.
> 
> I'd strongly urge you to seek out an experienced local trainer to get some meaningful input.
> 
> ...


I've talked to two trainers so far one says reinforce hold with collar which obviously doesn't work and the other says to switch bumpers and then pretty much EVERYBODY else says see the vet and hold off.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Chris Atkinson said:


> There should be plenty of experienced retriever folks nearby as well as some professional help.
> 
> I'd strongly urge you to seek out an experienced local trainer to get some meaningful input.
> 
> ...


Also, what's your opinion on just throwing some soft fun bumpers around while we figure this out?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

talking to and actually visiting a trainer are two different things . I want you to come here so I can see what you are doing and how the dog is responding and what you are doing again... find somebody to do that


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

I think, personally, I'd be more concerned with the dogs mouth & muzzle by the looks of the nasty sores in the picture. But that's just me.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dogs4life said:


> I've talked to two trainers so far one says reinforce hold with collar which obviously doesn't work and the other says to switch bumpers and then pretty much EVERYBODY else says see the vet and hold off.


My suggestion is not to talk with someone and come away with a quick fix step. 

My my suggestion is to physically work with someone experienced who can evaluate where you guys are and what's going on and give live meaningful input.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Chris Atkinson said:


> My suggestion is not to talk with someone and come away with a quick fix step.
> 
> My my suggestion is to physically work with someone experienced who can evaluate where you guys are and what's going on and give live meaningful input.


Well I'm waiting to see what the vet says first. Today his gums are very dark red


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

HNTFSH said:


> I think, personally, I'd be more concerned with the dogs mouth & muzzle by the looks of the nasty sores in the picture. But that's just me.


I'm very concerned with that. That's why we're gonna to the vet tomorrow ASAP. I really don't know what the sores are from maybe switching dog foods? If its not the gums then that will be a whole different situation that I will probably try and go to a trainer and see what's going on. Closest gainer to me is 2 hours away.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Could be tick borne diseases and God knows what else


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

I once read in a retriever book, a story about a FF'd dog that suddenly started holding the bumper very gingerly. It actually turned out to be a lower jaw injury. The guy went to smaller bumpers after the dog healed. Can't remember the title off hand. Good Luck!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dogs4life said:


> Also, what's your opinion on just throwing some soft fun bumpers around while we figure this out?


*EDIT - The below response is something that I was working on several hours ago. It was sitting on my iPad unsent. Even though I've already posted something, I figured maybe there's a grain of value below, maybe.

Good luck and I 'm glad your dog will see the vet tomorrow. Chris*

I can not evaluate what is happening since I can not see anything live. 

My my opinion is that you are searching for a suggestion that will give you the fix. My concern is that you can create confusion, frustration and generally degrade good training progress by seeking quick answers from random contributors that have not seen what's happening. 

Nothing is is lost by waiting til the doc evaluates health. 

Who knows? There is a chance that your dog tried hard to do the right thing and somehow hurt his mouth. Maybe he hammered down on a rock or root and it hurt him and confused him. If that's the case, you will need to work through it. That is only one of an endless number do possibilities though. 

Good luck. Be fair, be patient, be reasonable. 

You only get one chance to do it right the first time.

Chris


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Granddaddy said:


> Any time your dog has a physical condition that interferes with training or is exacerbated by the training you should back off until the condition clears.


This is the first response to the OP. Imho it answered the OP completely and succinctly.
I refuse to read the entire thread, but am always amazed how they can go on forever; when IMHO the question has been answered as well as possible


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## cn44 (Oct 1, 2012)

Snow in second picture? Frozen bumpers maybe causing irritation making them hard to hold. Vet check would still be number one on my list.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> This is the first response to the OP. Imho it answered the OP completely and succinctly.
> I refuse to read the entire thread, but am always amazed how they can go on forever; when IMHO the question has been answered as well as possible


Pretty easy explanation for that....human nature dictates we only hear ...or read what we want to hear or read.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

The sore on his lip looks like the one my old dog has had since I got her. It was caused by a hot spot. It has never grown the hair back, been bald for almost 15 years now. I hope your vet helps you and your boy out!


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Gonna see the vet in a little bit. I'll keep you guys updated!


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Vet said his gums are inflamed and looked like thy we're ready to bleed but other than they look fine. He gave me some antibiotics and pain meds. He said the gingivitis is causing his gums to hurt when he bites down. Give him the meds for 10 days no training until then. 


Thanks for the help once again. Hopefully these meds get him feeling better so we can get back to doing what he loves to do!


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Don't know if anyone brought this issue up but bumpers can get pretty hard this time of year and going through all the steps of FF with a dog that goes after the bumper pretty aggressively may be part of your cause.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Dogs4life said:


> Vet said his gums are inflamed and looked like thy we're ready to bleed but other than they look fine. He gave me some antibiotics and pain meds. He said the gingivitis is causing his gums to hurt when he bites down. Give him the meds for 10 days no training until then.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help once again. Hopefully these meds get him feeling better so we can get back to doing what he loves to do!


Good news! What were the sores from?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Gingivitis at 14 months old?


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Gingivitis at 14 months old?


This was my thought.

I would love to see picks of your dogs teeth. Does he have much plaque build up? I've never had a dog that young with plaque but it's hard to see in your other photo... It almost looks like plaque build up... Which I would call not normal for that age.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

HNTFSH said:


> Good news! What were the sores from?


All he said was it looks like he bit his lip on that one. My thought is it could be from the two dogs playing around with each other.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

mitty said:


> Thanks for keeping us posted, I hope your dog makes a full recovery!
> 
> If you don't mind sharing, I would be interested in learning what further treatment your vet has planned. Should a teeth cleaning take care of it? A change of food?


I really hope so too. Thank you.

He said something about getting teeth cleaned if we need too. All he said was no training for 10 days until he's done with medicine. Try to brush his teeth and give him some dental treats and bones or chew toys. The antibiotics should get rid o any disease or infection he said. Nothing about switching dog food. BUT that is my question for you guys. This never happened until I switched to pro plan. Would that have anything to do with it? A litter after the switch is when it all started.


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

I've seen sores on the side like that from fence fighting (or in the dog box, etc) where they rub against the wire.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

There we go! Finally got it to upload. That's after the PPP switch love the dog food but didn't realize this started happening after the switch.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

Marissa E. said:


> This was my thought.
> 
> I would love to see picks of your dogs teeth. Does he have much plaque build up? I've never had a dog that young with plaque but it's hard to see in your other photo... It almost looks like plaque build up... Which I would call not normal for that age.


posted a pic for you


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Dogs4life said:


> View attachment 16594
> 
> There we go! Finally got it to upload. That's after the PPP switch love the dog food but didn't realize this started happening after the switch.


PPP is likely fed to more performance dogs than all other 30/20 feeds combined. If this condition is really attributable to PPP, it would be seen in many more dogs (& PPP wouldn't be the most popular 30/20 feed). It is absurd to attribute this condition to PPP. Does your vet indicate the condition of the teeth are the cause? Also, highly unusual that a year old dog would have such substantial plaque to need his teeth cleaned. Once the meds are finished and condition appears clear, just give your dog a beef knuckle for about 20 mins once a week (refrigerate the bone between uses). It will keep his teeth and gums clean & in great shape.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

there is not significant tartar there , I wonder what the cause is? Did they do a complete blood count?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

The sores look like cold sores. Dogs do have similar viruses. Also might be related to a deficiency of some type.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ray Kirkpatrick said:


> If it's the same guy I know his dog ended up with an infection that caused the loss of vision in one eye.
> 
> Get dog to vet.


yes. But it's common. The same guy who is older, heard my dog cry when going out to pick up a flyer. My valor had a pheasant poke to the roof of his mouth. He was getting the infection behind the eye that puts pressure on the retina. It was treated early. Another well-known feel trialer had the same thing happened to his dog and his dog was hospitalized with no ill effects later.

the pictures don't suggest this, but don't hold off going to a vet if there is something wrong with your dog's mouth.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Dogs4life said:


> posted a pic for you


Yup, those teeth look fine really. :/ odd.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

How is your dog doing? Is he feeling better, have the antibiotics made a difference?


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

mitty said:


> How is your dog doing? Is he feeling better, have the antibiotics made a difference?


Well early into the antibiotics I threw him 1 fun bumper. Gums almost starting bleeding. Now we're almost done with the antibiotics. I've been working on some obedience and some fun bumpers and very little marking with some paint rollers. He does great with those so far. No bleeding, no hurting, and he holds them and doesn't drop them. So, I think the antibiotics are making a difference, his gums don't look as red anymore either. I think when we go back to forcing to pile I'm going to use paint rollers in the beginning and slowly move my way back to bumpers and see how he does.


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

mitty said:


> Thanks for the update. I hope you got the right diagnosis and have no more problems!


I sure hope so too. Do you agree with me on using paint rollers when going back to forcing to pile and then slowly adding in more bumpers until we are using bumpers again just to see if we run into any problems?


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

One additional thought for you... when humans get gingivitis, it can be transferred from person to person to a degree, like from parent to child using the same eating utensils. Docs/dentistss recommend not sharing utensils now. It's a bacteria. Maybe it would be a good idea to sterilize the old bumpers just in case in this situation, since your dog has had this problem before. Kids toys and eating utensils can be sterilized with a mild bleach solution....it's a soak for a certain amount of time and then thorough rinse. might be worth trying just in case?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Dogs4life said:


> I really hope so too. Thank you.
> 
> He said something about getting teeth cleaned if we need too. All he said was no training for 10 days until he's done with medicine. Try to brush his teeth and give him some dental treats and bones or chew toys. The antibiotics should get rid o any disease or infection he said. Nothing about switching dog food. BUT that is my question for you guys. This never happened until I switched to pro plan. Would that have anything to do with it? A litter after the switch is when it all started.





Dogs4life said:


> Well early into the antibiotics I threw him 1 fun bumper. Gums almost starting bleeding. Now we're almost done with the antibiotics. I've been working on some obedience and some fun bumpers and very little marking with some paint rollers. He does great with those so far. No bleeding, no hurting, and he holds them and doesn't drop them. So, I think the antibiotics are making a difference, his gums don't look as red anymore either. I think when we go back to forcing to pile I'm going to use paint rollers in the beginning and slowly move my way back to bumpers and see how he does.


You do not seem to take advice to heart. How do you justify ignoring the vet's advice?


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## Dogs4life (Dec 16, 2013)

2tall said:


> You do not seem to take advice to heart. How do you justify ignoring the vet's advice?


I don't think it will hurt working on some obedience. He has one day of antibiotics left, I figured some fun bumpers with paint rollers wouldn't hurt him.


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