# $100.00 entry



## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

While scrolling thru entry express I noticed that Del Bay Retriever club entry for the open was $100.00. I understand that cost of having a trial is expensive but $100.00 per dog . Does that not seem like a bit much. How much is a flyer in Delaware like 50.00 or is the club trying to limit the number of entrys so that only members will win?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Do Blue Hens fly? Maybe we could shoot those cheaper at this year's FTs. But that would mean we DelBay members probably wouldn't win - as we would've desecrated the state bird... I, personally, wouldn't win anyhow, but shooting the state bird as your flier is just as good a reason not to win as any (other than maybe being a crap handler in the first place)...

MG


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Crackerd what are you talking about?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Until you put on a field trial, it is hard to appreciate the costs associated with it. For example,
- insurance 
- lease
- shells
- help
- birds 
- judges (travel, housing, meals, gifts)
- ribbons, trophies

The Rocky Mountain Retriever Club will charge $90 in Open. 

We will be happy if we break even


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I suppose your right. Hunt test sell out in a hour field trial raise there entry what an I thinking More dogs equals more money but we don't want more dogs so we raise the entry fee


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Believe your rationale and your 'rithmetic's off, bluehen - and as you know we got some pretty good 'rithmetic here in Delaware.

Also believe Ted graciously gave you a "good accounting" of field trial entry costs.

MG


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

If I could ever get a dog to compete at that level I would gladly fork over $100 even to lose to a better dog.

Unfortunately I'm either going to have to pay for a finished dog or a pro to train my dog... THATS the money I wish I had.  not the measley $100 to enter the event!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Enter two dogs in the Open and Am, that's $400.00 plus EE fee each weekend. It adds up pretty quickly and forces me to make some hard decisions.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

By that accounting I can't believe I missed it. I can't believe more clubs are not folding. The hunt test game is growing every year and the trials have not. I wonder why more people don't run trials


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

delawarebluehen said:


> Crackerd what are you talking about?


Looked like a play on your user name, or thats how I read it anyway


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Yeah, and a play on his (her? - Hens are biologically "hers," you know) asinine comment:



delawarebluehen said:


> How much is a flyer in Delaware like 50.00 or *is the club trying to limit the number of entrys so that only members will win?*


MG


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

If DelBay had to go to $100 they'll all be at $100 and still just breaking even. Bring in a couple of out of town judges and check the cost. Easily $300-$400 driving or flying.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Interesting theory though. If we could raise entry fees to where me and 11 other dogs were entered...
But I still would have to win.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> By that accounting I can't believe I missed it. I can't believe more clubs are not folding. The hunt test game is growing every year and the trials have not. *I wonder why more people don't run trials*


Cause it takes a special kind of crazy to run FTs! 

Special kind of crazy regards,

FOM

The Open is $100, The Am is $80 - so if I'm an Am and enter both the Open and Am with my dog, that equals $90 per stake - still reasonable. What the larger entry fee does is help with the cost of putting on the trial and passes that on to those who are absent from the trial (i.e. pro handles dog only entered in the Open). Second thing I noticed is the trial runs Sat - Mon...makes pretty good sense what the club is doing - trying to encourage Amateurs to show up and be part of the process - good for them! At least that's my take on it.


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## Breakhigh (Apr 15, 2012)

It seems to me that people run in a hunt test as they are competing against a standard instead of other dogs where if they pass that standard they go home with a ribbon and a pass toward a title. I am not saying in any way that one is better than the other as I plan on trialing once I have a dog of caliber, until then I will continue gettin experience in handling at the hunt test. I believe that both events would cost the same to run, it just comes down to people's choice on what to run. Just my opinion.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

[QUOTE;1195962]By that accounting I can't believe I missed it. I can't believe more clubs are not folding. The hunt test game is growing every year and the trials have not. I wonder why more people don't run trials[/QUOTE]

Entry fees are a small part of the cost pie when it comes to campaigning a dog in field trials. With plenty of trials having 100+ plus dogs entered in the Open it doesn't seem that entry costs are a big deal to many who play the game.

I also don't think there are very many who would use entry fees as a basis to decide whether to compete in field trials or run hunt tests.

Tom


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## pagedog (Apr 27, 2009)

I am an amateur and run hunt tests. It is not so much the money it costs me to enter, although $100 is a lot to me, it is being able to get my dog in. With limited entries, it seems that the Master fills up very quickly with the pros dogs. I 'm not knocking the pros because we need them, but I wish it were easier to get my one dog in.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Pagedog run trials you will never be shut out at the window


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Lash said:


> If DelBay had to go to $100 they'll all be at $100 and still just breaking even. Bring in a couple of out of town judges and check the cost. Easily $300-$400 driving or flying.



I booked my flight to Memphis in October 2013 for an April 2014 trial. $300. That does not include parking at airport, baggage fees, etc. Costs add up quickly


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Tom wall you are correct in that some of the folks that run trials could care less about the entry fee and campaigning a dog is expensive. I guess the point that I am trying to understand is that if entry fees continue to rise at the rate they are they who will be left to compete , judge, Marshall , shot flyers, and so on.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> Tom wall you are correct in that some of the folks that run trials could care less about the entry fee and campaigning a dog is expensive. I guess the point that I am trying to understand is that if entry fees continue to rise at the rate they are they who will be left to compete , judge, Marshall , shot flyers, and so on.



By and large, the middle class guy got pushed out of FT years ago. The upper middle class guy is getting pushed out now


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

As someone that organizes 2 trails a year for my club, the $100 entry is not unreasonable. We charge $90 for the open and am and $80 for the minors. We do not make a bunch of money. We actually hope to break even on the 2 trials. I feel it makes a better trial to bring in a judge for each all age stake from outside your circuit. That costs a bunch, normally $600 a piece or so. 

Ted's breakdown is right on though. 

Russell


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I understand completely the cost of traveling and ect. I think that someone may want to take notice that the people that support the trial game are not getting younger and soon if we continue to push people out then who do we have left


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

delawarebluehen said:


> By that accounting I can't believe I missed it. I can't believe more clubs are not folding. The hunt test game is growing every year and the trials have not. I wonder why more people don't run trials


You honestly believe the HT game is growing??? The only reason that hunt test entries are up is due to the recurring annual requirement of 6 passes to qualify to run the Master National. I would wager that if the MN did not require passes at weekend hunt tests, and instead held regional qualifying events for titled MH's, weekend HT's wouldn't have enough entries to break even.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Maybe the hunt test game is not growing but this weekend at Cape Fear there are 9 dogs in the Q while just two hours away at copper black the Master Test has 60 .


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I am sorry Tar heal not cape fear


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

And two master test with 60 each not one but two


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

delawarebluehen said:


> And two master test with 60 each not one but two


You are comparing a double master with 60 dogs in MH to an unusually small FT for these parts? Still more different dogs at Tar Heel. Check out the Palmetto Spring trial, which was very small because of the cold winter, compared to ACC HT. How many different dogs at the FT? And that one usually has over 100 dogs in the open and 80 in the Am


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

This years palmetto trial was smaller because of the trial the same weekend in Georgia. The LRC of Americus


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## 24116 (May 8, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> By and large, the middle class guy got pushed out of FT years ago. The upper middle class guy is getting pushed out now


Thank you... Finally the truth comes out.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

It currently costs us over a $1000 per month to enter our two dogs in three trials in a month. We do not use a pro, sleep in a car or tent when we train or trial. We put on well over 1000 miles per month on our vehicles traveling to training and trialing grounds. We have to provide for 4 dogs because we still have to take care of them when they are retired. The cost of trial entry fees does affect our life style. 

That being said, the $80 or more for an entry is the cost of holding a trial. Clubs have to try to make a small profit to keep a margin in the checking account to advance the costs of the next event or cover an unforseen event like a cancelled trial which can be very costly. Some clubs are not making a profit, even at $80.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> By and large, the middle class guy got pushed out of FT years ago. The upper middle class guy is getting pushed out now


Ted, that's too much pressure - please, please don't leave it in the hands of us zealous paupers to "grow the game." Unless it's to do with growing fliers - bluehen, I can get you all those you want next door in Maryland for just $49.99 each...Please help support my field trial habit, buy generously.

MG


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Were I am in South Carolina I can buy a flyer for 12.00 to 15.00 dollars you can keep yours


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

B Peterson said:


> Thank you... Finally the truth comes out.



​You act like it was a secret.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the FT game has a lot of similarities to those that come to Vegas

The high roller big spender still comes to town because quite frankly they can

The low income guy still comes to town because quite frankly they dont know any better and they are trying to catch lightning in a bottle

The middle to upper middle class guy that Ted referred to isnt coming to town as often, Why you ask ?

Because they worked their tail off to get to a comfortable position in life, they have the discretionary income to afford the game, but the ROI is no longer the value it used to be, and their TIME is worth more to them than the dollars spent to play the game..They also know better and if they have already achieved some success in the sport the game just doesnt have the same appeal or intensity...

reminds me of the Eagles song "After the Thrill is Gone"



> Same dances in the same old shoes
> You get too careful with the steps you choose
> you don't care about winning but you don't want to lose
> After the thrill is gone


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

$100 entry fees are certainly no surprise, I predicted they weren't far away a number of years ago, now that someone has stepped up can $125 be far away? Our club submitted it's application for $100 for the Open and $60 for the amateur 6 or 7 years ago and one would have thought that we advocated drowning kittens. Complaints to the Performance Division caused them to deny our field trial application unless we equalized entry fees......


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I like that idea.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

EdA said:


> $100 entry fees are certainly no surprise, I predicted they weren't far away a number of years ago, now that someone has stepped up can $125 be far away? Our club submitted it's application for $100 for the Open and $60 for the amateur 6 or 7 years ago and one would have thought that we advocated drowning kittens. Complaints to the Performance Division caused them to deny our field trial application unless we equalized entry fees......


I was thinking of that when I saw this. I still think it is a great idea. Run your dog in the open and am and you pay $80 per entry--very fair. Too steep, just run the am and only $60--well below average. Just waiting on your pro to email you with how your dog did and you could probably care less about $100 per entry.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Love that idea even more.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

The cost of birds alone will cause the entry fees for both FT and Hunt test to go up. Our bird supplier went up to 15.00 per bird and 1.50 per mile one way delivery. Our delivery cost alone is 750.00.


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## choch2odog (Feb 8, 2005)

Karen Klotthor said:


> The cost of birds alone will cause the entry fees for both FT and Hunt test to go up. Our bird supplier went up to 15.00 per bird and 1.50 per mile one way delivery. Our delivery cost alone is 750.00.


500 miles for birds?


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

But if the number of entries goes down then the number of birds needed will be less then its the cost of flying judges in then you can't fly judges in because you didn't have enough entries to pay there expensives then what 200.00 entry fee


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

delawarebluehen - have you chaired an event, been intimately involved in the "budget" of putting on an actual trial?


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## REBEL RIDGE FARMS (Nov 27, 2010)

Delbay spends an average 12,000 -15,000 managing the grounds at the c an d canal. The maintence is grass cutting and spraying the ponds for vegetation . The club is responsible for managing the groung for its useage. So where is this money going to come from? Of course entry fees from hunt test and field trials. These grounds are free to everyone to use whether a club member or not. Many pro's and amateurs use these grounds and never help or offer to lift a crate or bird bag.as ted stated the cost of hosting trials judges expenses, motels, liability insurance, workmans comp, lunches, dinner for judges,birds, shells, equipment, and bird boys.now you know why entry fees have gone up quality trials cost money to host for clubs. I know we host and chair 7 field trials this year and 1 hunt test.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

choch2odog said:


> 500 miles for birds?


The main supplier for SoCal is from Idaho which is a lot further than 500 miles.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Saturday - Monday makes sense since it's memorial day weekend. $100 open, $80 Owner handler Am, Q and Derby. Sounds like an effort to make the trial amateur friendly. 

If your dog is on a pro truck and you're complaining about a $20 increase in an entry fee for one stake, I'm not sure what to say? Come out and run your own dog in the Am?

Everything that happens at or in association with Rebel Ridge is a well run event that is a pleasure to run and in most cases, requires minimal help from the gallery. 

Not sure why anyone would complain?


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

512 miles delivered to the trial grounds. It comes out to $18.19 per bird!!! Our birds alone were 3,750.00 + 768.00 delivery charge. We flew in one judge, pay for birdboys and make about $400.00 but we lost 800.00 from the Fall trial. The cost of birds are the biggest issue. We could live with 15.00 birds but the cost to have them delivered is killing the bottom line. The southeast (La, MS, AL, Ten) are in desperate need of a local bird supplier.


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## 24116 (May 8, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> ​You act like it was a secret.


Secret?...no
I just haven't heard somebody with standing state it.
But I don't think an increase in $15-$20 entry fee's is what pushed most of us out. IMO if somebody is worried about $20 in this game they should find a different hobby.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> I like that idea.


If you like the idea maybe you ought to take another look at the Premium. The inevitable increase in the entry cost is placed where it belongs...
On those running the Open.

john


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I have never chaired a trial but I also said in the being I understand that hosting a trial is expensive. I just thought and think that 100.00 is a bit much. Del Bay usually has a few pros there that bring a number of dogs with them so having enough entries can't be a problem. I understand clubs that only attract one or two pros but Del Bay usually has good numbers. I am very curios to see with the 100.00 entry if it goes up or down. If it goes down I guess the c and d canal won't get mowed this year


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

john fallon said:


> If you like the idea maybe you ought to take another look at the Premium. The inevitable increase in the entry cost is placed where it belongs...
> On those running the Open.
> 
> john


Do the pros pay the entry fee or the owner?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Well the only way you'll know what the $100 entry does to their bottom line is to actually volunteer to chair the event and be part of the process. It's easy to come on to RTF and throw a club under the bus, but unless you are actively involved in the club, it's pretty rude to accuse the club of inflating their entry fees just because they are trying to make a quick buck.

2nd time today someone has whined about how a club does something, but they are not active in the given club...damn shame.

Quiet in the gallery please!

FOM


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> I have never chaired a trial but I also said in the being I understand that hosting a trial is expensive. I just thought and think that 100.00 is a bit much. Del Bay usually has a few pros there that bring a number of dogs with them so having enough entries can't be a problem. I understand clubs that only attract one or two pros but Del Bay usually has good numbers. I am very curios to see with the 100.00 entry if it goes up or down. If it goes down I guess the c and d canal won't get mowed this year



Hard to really understand until you do it. If you want good judges, you book them 3-4 years in advance. You do not get to change judges at the last minute to reduce costs. All costs are increasing: liability insurance, land leases, bird boy help, bird costs (it is about $13/duck $14/pheasant, not including transportation, stewarding costs), shot/popper costs, everything is going up. No costs go down. 

Then people like you, who do not have to deal with these details, complain about the cost of doing business

Tet


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> Do the pros pay the entry fee or the owner?


Semantics. Either directly or indirectly the owner pays which is how it should be.

john


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Russ said:


> The main supplier for SoCal is from Idaho which is a lot further than 500 miles.


We are as far down south as you are going to get and our birds come from around Dallas. Birds will cost 20.00 each after deliver


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

FOM said:


> Well the only way you'll know what the $100 entry does to their bottom line is to actually volunteer to chair the event and be part of the process. It's easy to come on to RTF and throw a club under the bus, but unless you are actively involved in the club, it's pretty rude to accuse the club of inflating their entry fees just because they are trying to make a quick buck.
> 
> 2nd time today someone has whined about how a club does something, but they are not active in the given club...damn shame.
> 
> ...


I never said the club was trying to make a quick buck. Never said that. I said in the beginning 100.00 entry seemed like a lot and I understand that holding an event is expensive. It just seems to me that the sport of field trials as a hole has not grown we had pushed aside the middle class guy to hunt test and are continuing to do so with raising the entry fee. I would think more dogs would generate more money by in large keeping entry fees at a minimal amount. The more we push people away from running and competing we are then only hurting the breed. Also some one said it sounds to me like they are trying to make this a Amateur friendly event well that is just pushing aside competition so with fewer dogs equals less revanew


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, you can tell from the posts, who has dealt with the nitty gritty of putting on a field trial, and who simply watches them happen.

It is a pain in butt to put on a trial - and it is rare that anyone thanks you for all of the brain damage associated with one.

Instead, you get complaints about 
- the quality of the judges
- the quality of the grounds
- the quality of the bird boys
- the cost of the entries
Blah, blah, blah

Like Lainee, Lynn, and Ed, I work for a living, and do all of the stuff necessary to put on a trial in my spare time.

Listening to people bitch about the product, who do not dirty their hands with putting on trials themselves gets tiring


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> I never said the club was trying to make a quick buck. Never said that. I said in the beginning 100.00 entry seemed like a lot and I understand that holding an event is expensive. It just seems to me that the sport of field trials as a hole has not grown we had pushed aside the middle class guy to hunt test and are continuing to do so with raising the entry fee. I would think more dogs would generate more money by in large keeping entry fees at a minimal amount. The more we push people away from running and competing we are then only hurting the breed. Also some one said it sounds to me like they are trying to make this a Amateur friendly event well that is just pushing aside competition so with fewer dogs equals less revanew



No one is trying to push out the little guy. The economics are what they are. 

Bitch about the prices if you wish, but remember that the people who put on these trials are paying the same price. There is no worker discount. I charge $90 for the Open. I pay $90 for my Open dog. If you think I am happy about it, you are crazy. 

The price is the price that we need to break even. 

You don't like it? Fine, you find grounds, workers, judges, bird boys, etc. and put on a trial and see what your price points are.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> Well, you can tell from the posts, who has dealt with the nitty gritty of putting on a field trial, and who simply watches them happen.
> 
> It is a pain in butt to put on a trial - and it is rare that anyone thanks you for all of the brain damage associated with one.
> 
> ...


I never bitched about the product. I now know why the only questions on the site are more about force fetch and were someone can buy a holding blind. I just stated that I thought 100.00 entry fee was a bit much and that knew the cost of holding a trial was expensive.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Well costs went up at this trial cause Bait require haute cuisine.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> Well, you can tell from the posts, who has dealt with the nitty gritty of putting on a field trial, and who simply watches them happen.
> 
> It is a pain in butt to put on a trial - and it is rare that anyone thanks you for all of the brain damage associated with one.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better. I have never put on a FT but many Hunt Test and same type of work goes in both


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> I suppose your right. Hunt test sell out in a hour field trial raise there entry what an I thinking More dogs equals more money *but we don't want more dogs so we raise the entry fee*



This sure sounds like complaining about price to me.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Not complaining thinking I would love to see the sport grow how can we do that. I would love to see more dogs and people at an event.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> Not complaining thinking I would love to see the sport grow how can we do that. I would love to see more dogs and people at an event.



No one disagrees. But, as I have said, the price is what the price is. None of us who puts on a trial is making any money off of the process.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> Well, you can tell from the posts, who has dealt with the nitty gritty of putting on a field trial, and who simply watches them happen.
> 
> It is a pain in butt to put on a trial - and it is rare that anyone thanks you for all of the brain damage associated with one.
> 
> ...


And if you don't think to listen to people complain then don't it know one I am sure is making you do this. It must be something you enjoy doing so thanks. But I now know the next time a club ask me to throw or shot I can say I paid 100.00 to run my dog and not to throw or shot and believe you and me I will not feel bad


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> And if you don't think to listen to people complain then don't it know one I am sure is making you do this. It must be something you enjoy doing so thanks. But I now know the next time a club ask me to throw or shot I can say I paid 100.00 to run my dog and not to throw or shot and believe you and me I will not feel bad



Well, that certainly will help the sport grow. I don't enjoy putting on trials and people like you are why.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I'll never get to sleep tonight now.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

If you're tired of seeing prices of trials go up, donate your grounds, donate your time to throw birds, donate yourself to work in the kitchen and feed all the workers, donate birds you raised.

Add all those things together and then add in maintenance of equipment like popper guns and blinds and umbrellas and bug spray and sun screen and lots of water when it's 100 degrees. I could go on. Being a past treasurer, a field trail and hunt test committee chair person, I've seen it all. Add onto that increases in property tax for those of us that own our own land as well as increased liability insurance.

I think we could all cut a fairly decent chunk of money required to put on a trial if people from the gallery would throw birds but then you'd put up with the peanut gallery saying that bird isn't landing in the same spot within a foot every time a gun change happens.


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## russell.jason2 (Mar 13, 2011)

I had the experience of setting up my first field trial this past fall, I had no idea what it cost. A $100 entry is not that unreasonable. As far as the comments about pushing the middle class guy/gal out, its disturbing. I enjoy the game and the competition. However, the cost to play this game has caused me to make some tough decisions. When I talk about cost, I am not just talking about entry fees. Our training group has had this discussion. What is reason to play the game.? to have a FC/AFC or NFC or NAFC. I have a nice dog and dog if I had the means could be a titled dog but I probably will never know. I can't afford to take off the time or spend the money to campaign her like is needed to achieve my goals and damn sure can't afford the price of paying a pro to train her (even if I could afford it, probably would not do it anyway, love training myself). Running 4-5 trials a year probably will not cut it unless you have a very special animal. I do my research and see a lot of titled dogs are trialing 15 or more times a year. This game is hard and I have quickly learned its not the best dog that wins, its the best dog that weekend. My girl is QAA and I hear people say that is nothing but to me it means a lot because as an amateur competing against pros it took a lot of hard work. It cost a lot of money to even train yourself to compete at this level. I don't want to run hunt test, I like the idea of competition, I am not knocking hunt test. Until the day I can afford it, I will keep on training for trials, run my 4-5 opens/amt a year and as placement or finishes come I will celebrate like I won the national.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I agree. And I have thrown and shot my fair of birds. At most trials and for most clubs its the same folks doing all the work. And thanks. And they are paying the same amount to run there dog as I am . Trust me my next post will be about force fetch or replacement batteries. And not how to grow the sport . I guess we are all fine with the way it is . I hope entries increase to 200.00 by the fall.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Go Glyndon , MN ...FNDRC !! Wake up some of you this was always a rich man's sport considered a baby to horses. If you can't pay don't play. Middle class scraper-bys we hang on by effort. Tough love but true w/the explosion of pros and declining amateur trained dogs.


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

I don't play the FT game but run HT. I know that a club like Del Bay is a class act and I always love to go there. Not only are costs going up, membership and worker numbers declining or holding on but open land to run these venues depending where you are is so restricted that it's become one of the biggest premiums. So no matter what venue we all run be prepared to pay more !

Members of clubs will whine about costs but frankly I don't know many organizations or clubs you can join for a $40.00 annual membership charge. I think that's probably on par with most dog clubs. Take your pick, raise dues or raise the cost of a trial entry or hunt test entry you have to cover your costs. I've often wondered how I could go run an event on grounds so beautiful as DelBay and how they did it for what they charged for the test. 

Maybe if the costs go up people will be more inclined to go to a test more prepared for the test and not roll the dice. Perhaps more folks who want to enter a test can enter, because those who don't will choose to wait till they are ready. I'm sending in my membership application and dues to DelBay irregardless of if I can make the 3.5 hour trip to train there or not. It's a great club and venue to support.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> I'll never get to sleep tonight now.


Count sheepish comments you've made - that'll help.

MG


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

delawarebluehen said:


> Trust me my next post will be about force fetch or replacement batteries. And not how to grow the sport . I guess we are all fine with the way it is ..


"grow the sport" was not your question. Here was your question


delawarebluehen said:


> How much is a flyer in Delaware like 50.00 or is the club trying to limit the number of entrys so that only members will win?


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

crackerd said:


> Count sheepish comments you've made - that'll help.
> 
> MG


The comments you made were more then helpful. I look forward to reading more of them please keep them coming . You are a true poet.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Everything goes up, it's like a law of physics or something, it's just startling to break the hundred dollar barrier. Hate to date myself, but I remember when $1.00 a gallon gasoline was beyond imagination. When I started in this sport the pro I train with had a saying of "_thank you for your fifty bucks_" every time I made a handler error in training. Now we're double that, but so is gas, bread and milk. That said, $420.00 each weekend on top of everything else is pretty huge for our "middle class" family. For us it will probably mean my solid qualifying level-every once in a while all age competitive dog will be retired. 

John


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> Everything goes up, it's like a law of physics or something, it's just startling to break the hundred dollar barrier. Hate to date myself, but I remember when $1.00 a gallon gasoline was beyond imagination. When I started in this sport the pro I train with had a saying of "_thank you for your fifty bucks_" every time I made a handler error in training. Now we're double that, but so is gas, bread and milk. That said, $420.00 each weekend on top of everything else is pretty huge for our "middle class" family. For us it will probably mean my solid qualifying level-every once in a while all age competitive dog will be retired.
> 
> John


And that's not good for the sport. The weeding out of the "middle class" guy. Most not all but most of the trials I have ran its guys like you that throw , plant, shot, Marshall its not the person with five or six dogs sitting under an umbrella drinking expensive water from France that's not making them any smarter. But yet were the ones being punished .


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

What EXACTLY would you suggest Delbay do to lower their prices?


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

This is just a thought .... pay a member ship if your a member you receive a discount on the entry fee. If you work as in throw or shot or plant blinds or work in the kitchen you can then receive a discount. If you judge this year next year free entry. If you help with mowing spraying of ponds ect you could receive some discount these are all just thoughts knowing has to be carved into stone. And I think this could go for any club.


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

So who do you think is "weeding out the middle class" guy? We just are not immune to external pressures. Think about it?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> The comments you made were more then helpful. I look forward to reading more of them please keep them coming . You are a true poet.


No, when I can tell you how to force fetch in rhyme,
and which duck blind's the mightiest of fine,
only then will I be a poet who might know it.

For now I'm just a bloke who understands the economics (and socioeconomics) of field trials, and appreciates having the opportunity to pay my entry fee that affords me the privilege of running them. Yeah, I bought into it whole hog.

Now, Lois, can you step in here and offer bluehen a DelBay membership with my compliments, so he'll have a better chance of winning up here against a small_*ish*_ field comprising only his fellows and won't feel so badly about our $50 fliers? See you at the open, then, bluehen?

MG


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

People who work are the ones who and folks are right never receive a thank you never get to truly watch the dog work But they pay they same amount as the ones who do nothing.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

delawarebluehen said:


> And that's not good for the sport. The weeding out of the "middle class" guy. Most not all but most of the trials I have ran its guys like you that throw , plant, shot, Marshall its not the person with five or six dogs sitting under an umbrella drinking expensive water from France that's not making them any smarter. But yet were the ones being punished .


To be clear I'm not putting down the DelBay club, just pointing out the hundred dollar barrier though more psychological than economic, will force me to think about whether or not I can afford to double stake two dogs, when one of them is a very borderline all age dog.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

And the more I think about this I remember buying flyers ten years ago for 10.00 or 12.00 dollars. How much is Del Bay paying bird throwers?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> People who work are the ones who and folks are right never receive a thank you never get to truly watch the dog work But they pay they same amount as the ones who do nothing.


*Field trial victims!* There are some fine legal minds in our area - yes, even among field trialers - who would take this case on and take it to the highest court. (Hey, maybe that court even would agree to convene in Fort Lee to accommodate our potential legal representation.) 

Why, you've really hit on a workable angle to denounce DelBay, bluehen. Victimization of field trialers! Victimization of field trialers who actually do something at a field trial besides run their dogs *in* field trials! I mean, they barely give us an open truck door to pee behind, not to mention making us hold it for hours in the first place!

MG


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> This is just a thought .... pay a member ship if your a member you receive a discount on the entry fee. If you work as in throw or shot or plant blinds or work in the kitchen you can then receive a discount. If you judge this year next year free entry. If you help with mowing spraying of ponds ect you could receive some discount these are all just thoughts knowing has to be carved into stone. And I think this could go for any club.



The Rules do not permit a discount for anyone. The entry fees must be the same for everyone.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

All the "member-workers" at our trial pay the same entry fee as everyone else. We do all the work for 4 days. Arriving early Thursday and leaving late Sunday. Pay for our own gas, motels and dinners. It costs about $300 for the privilege of working your butt off. Not to mention the work that goes on in preparation for the trial. Finding judges, bird boys, awards, judges gifts, permits, meetings with the landowner, etc. etc. All the clubs do it. No one would expect otherwise.

With luck we break even or lose a little. Everything is going up. There's an incredible amount of work to be done, a lot of people think trials just happen.


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## Erin O'Brien (Mar 5, 2010)

I run mostly trials, but have never dealt with the finances of a trial, but have with our local hrc hunt tests. We seem to really make some good money with a raffle. I haven't ever seen a raffle at a field trial, except an o/h q in conjunction with a hunt test. Is there a reason? People aren't interested? Too much work? Good raffles could be primer guns, wingers, radios, etc, stuff people can never seem to have enough of for $20 tickets.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I have read the rules a few times but from time to time we as a community has changed the rules to maybe benefit are selfes and sometimes to benefit the sport.


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

Maybe we need " Dog Stamps" ?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Raffles could be good. Probably a lot of work. 

We are stretched so thin we have trouble getting away to pick up lunches for all the workers.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Do you ever pause to think what you write?

In post 50, you write




> I have never chaired a trial ...




In post 65, you write



> And if you don't think to listen to people complain then don't it know one I am sure is making you do this. It must be something you enjoy doing so thanks. But I now know the next time a club ask me to throw or shot I can say I paid 100.00 to run my dog and not to throw or shot and believe you and me I will not feel bad



In post 82, you write



delawarebluehen said:


> People who work are the ones who and folks are right never receive a thank you never get to truly watch the dog work But they pay they same amount as the ones who do nothing.


​There is no rhyme or reason to any of it


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Ted, who knows what pickaxe bluehen's got to grind with DelBay other than being a skinflint at showing us the Benjamins, but you're wasting valuable cell matter in trying to enlighten, educate, or mollify him (or her - again I would always be courteous in addressing someone who goes by "hen" as a her, or maybe a biddy-body).

MG


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## REBEL RIDGE FARMS (Nov 27, 2010)

Blue hen you are missing the point! It's the amount spent on the grounds . Which allows others to use these grounds . Where is this cash coming from. ? We always have great help, judges,shoot 2 fliers in all stakes and grounds at all delbay trials. Birds by the way are with delivery cost 12-14 pheasants and ducks 12-14. Shells are not cheap you need to use steel and are 112.00 per case. Help by the way 9 and hour with hunter safety . I forgot the kicker long days with lunch and breakfast.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Well maybe not but one thing I do know is as a community if we don't figure out a way to raise the number of entries by incourging more people to compete at the trial level you can continue to raise the fee and say its the cost of everything going up but at some point there will be no one to compete against but yourself and a few of your friends. I am sure there are a few folks that are sitting back thinking the same .


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

John Lash said:


> Raffles could be good. Probably a lot of work.
> 
> We are stretched so thin we have trouble getting away to pick up lunches for all the workers.


You know John I've been reading this and chuckling through it all.The same sentiments have been said for the last 50 years....for I don't know how long I worked the Buckeye .From age 8 to 18 .can remember lots of days with no lunch.
Jim


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## 24116 (May 8, 2004)

delawarebluehen said:


> Well maybe not but one thing I do know is as a community if we don't figure out a way to raise the number of entries by incourging more people to compete at the trial level you can continue to raise the fee and say its the cost of everything going up but at some point there will be no one to compete against but yourself and a few of your friends. I am sure there are a few folks that are sitting back thinking the same .


Or maybe we're just sitting here laughing


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I have . We have discussed this on many Saturdays with my training group


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

delawarebluehen said:


> While scrolling thru entry express I noticed that Del Bay Retriever club entry for the open was $100.00. I understand that cost of having a trial is expensive but $100.00 per dog . Does that not seem like a bit much. How much is a flyer in Delaware like 50.00 or is the club trying to limit the number of entrys so that only members will win?


Without scrolling through the posts.....I am a chairman of a Gundog Club and often Questioned on costs ,not only from entrants but also from members.
My answer is always 'Look what you gain' rather than what those that supply are getting for your gain' .
You have an option?...One of them is Not enter.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

You are right.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

REBEL RIDGE FARMS said:


> Blue hen you are missing the point! It's the amount spent on the grounds . Which allows others to use these grounds . Where is this cash coming from. ? We always have great help, judges,shoot 2 fliers in all stakes and grounds at all delbay trials. Birds by the way are with delivery cost 12-14 pheasants and ducks 12-14. Shells arThee not cheap you need to use steel and are 112.00 per case. Help by the way 9 and hour with hunter safety . I forgot the kicker long days with lunch and breakfast.


The same sentiments could also be said about why a pro charges what he does. Jim


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

You folks have convinced me 100.00 entry fee it is.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

delawarebluehen said:


> You folks have convinced me 100.00 entry fee it is.


You give up too easy.lots of good info.Good luck this season.Jim


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> The same sentiments could also be said about why a pro charges what he does. Jim


The same sentiments could also be said about Child care>?..
As A Family man 'We' often think nothing of sending our children to boarding school ,because 'we' as Parents can't ''Teach/Train'' algebra or 'Physics' or whatever subject?..and gladly pay !!...directly or Indirectly .Yet 'we' as dog handlers 'Think'/ 'Believe' that the 'Pro' should be the same 'state' benefit? 
Just a thought?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

delawarebluehen said:


> Not complaining thinking I would love to see the sport grow how can we do that. I would love to see more dogs and people at an event.


You aren't going to do that by making the events lose money.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

polmaise said:


> The same sentiments could also be said about Child care>?..
> As A Family man 'We' often think nothing of sending our children to boarding school ,because 'we' as Parents can't ''Teach/Train'' algebra or 'Physics' or whatever subject?..and gladly pay !!...directly or Indirectly .Yet 'we' as dog handlers 'Think'/ 'Believe' that the 'Pro' should be the same 'state' benefit?
> Just a thought?


Now your getting into public vs.private which also holds true over here as far as dogs are concerned also...good point. Jim


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> This is just a thought .... pay a member ship if your a member you receive a discount on the entry fee. If you work as in throw or shot or plant blinds or work in the kitchen you can then receive a discount. If you judge this year next year free entry. If you help with mowing spraying of ponds ect you could receive some discount these are all just thoughts knowing has to be carved into stone. And I think this could go for any club.


Our club has about eight active members. All of them work our trials from sunup to sundown each day. We marshal, make lunches, steward birds, set out signs, shoot birds, make dinner & breakfasts, shuttle judges from the airport, etc. All of the FT clubs in this area have small memberships and non-members from other clubs do pitch in. 

Our trial grounds are 160 miles from San Diego, so we are very grateful to the non-field trialers, non-members that drive the distance to help. I just do not see where offering a discount to members to work the trial would make an iota of difference since they are all working anyway.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> By and large, *the middle class guy got pushed out of FT years ago.* The upper middle class guy is getting pushed out now


No, they are still there... They are the ones doing all the grunt work.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Russ said:


> Our club has about eight active members. All of them work our trials from sunup to sundown each day. We marshal, make lunches, steward birds, set out signs, shoot birds, make dinner & breakfasts, shuttle judges from the airport, etc. All of the FT clubs in this area have small memberships and non-members from other clubs do pitch in.





John Lash said:


> All the "member-workers" at our trial pay the same entry fee as everyone else. We do all the work for 4 days. Arriving early Thursday and leaving late Sunday. Pay for our own gas, motels and dinners. It costs about $300 for the privilege of working your butt off. Not to mention the work that goes on in preparation for the trial. Finding judges, bird boys, awards, judges gifts, permits, meetings with the landowner, etc. etc. *All the clubs do it. No one would expect otherwise.*
> 
> With luck we break even or lose a little. Everything is going up. There's an incredible amount of work to be done, a lot of people think trials just happen.



By and large field trials are put on by very small groups of people. A club puts on a FT because the next week, another one will put on another FT. We each go through the brain damage of putting on a FT because we know that down the road someone else is going to do so. And because we all know that unless each of us takes our turn in the barrel, there will be no FT to run. We work one weekend, so we can run the next.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

delawarebluehen said:


> You folks have convinced me 100.00 entry fee it is.


I don't understand why you keep arguing with or doubting all these folks that have direct experience putting on and budgeting for field trials as if they have an ulterior motive (allowing their members to win due to decreased numbers from the increased entry fee) or as if they are lining their pockets with huge amounts of money. The answer is to get involved and work on a committee yourself so you can see the situation directly yourself. Or I guess the alternative is to just sit back and bitch on the internet. 

What prices with anything in our world are decreasing over time?


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

Cowtown said:


> I don't understand why you keep arguing with or doubting all these folks that have direct experience putting on and budgeting for field trials as if they have an ulterior motive (allowing their members to win due to decreased numbers from the increased entry fee) or as if they are lining their pockets with huge amounts of money. The answer is to get involved and work on a committee yourself so you can see the situation directly yourself. Or I guess the alternative is to just sit back and bitch on the internet.
> 
> What prices with anything in our world are decreasing over time?


I am convinced the entry fee should be 100.00 I am not arguing. I am fine with the rising cost.


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

I would second Ted's observation, money issues are hurting a lot of potential field trialers.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

delawarebluehen said:


> You folks have convinced me 100.00 entry fee it is.


It saddens me that you came up with that conclusion on your part...As with all things...sooner or later it will become a rich"s man sport as with so many of the other things we would love to do.... History in some way repeats itself in all venues.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

The most recent HT budget I did assumed $80 master and $70 JR & SR. Keeping all budget items as tight as I thought reasonable we were looking at a 10% margin for the weekend. Since I did my budget field trial blanks have doubled in cost and motel rooms for the judges have gone up 50%. (Big event in town that weekend that I did not know about at the time.) So, that 10% margin is down to about 5%. That means that any hiccup and we loose $$. And that does not include capital cost for equipment and assumes a generous landowner who lets us play for free. 
Anyone complaining about the cost of putting on a trial or HT is welcome to step up and organize - and underwrite - their own event. Let us know how it goes.


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

Our club, Hennepin County Amateur Retriever Club, did the $100-$60 split several years ago, and it worked out fine. For some (forgotten) reason, we did not continue it, although our Open fees are still higher than Amateur fees. But I still think it is a good idea. Particularly when one considers that Open entries by professionals are mostly dogs whose ABSENTEE owners could care less about entry costs!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

And that in its own demise is what will cause it to stop to the average participate....Remember...to some, it is a hobby and to others it is money.


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

If one considers costs closely, it would be cheaper to put one's dog with a pro full time and never go to a field trial. But that is not my cup of tea. I see pros run dogs whose owners are never there. What is the reward in that? Heck, if I did not enjoy training, I would find another hobby, for sure!


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

For our club, we have 4 events a year. Hunt tests hardly turn any sort of profit unless you want to destroy all possible workers for any other event throughout the summer. The field trials make up for them but that's even getting tight. Tight enough when a national am is run close enough to drive to in a day yet is far enough away that most of the contestants running and their pros have already headed down the road. We've run into that a few times and it really makes the years budget pretty tight. 

Hosting and and funding an event isn't a linear scale, I haven't done the math but to pay for workers and judges, you need to hit a few critical numbers of entries to make it work. After that, the margin is very tight again until you hit another higher level, say a 100 dog open. All age stakes typically cost a load more because of multiple night judges expenses as well as the typical multiple fliers and multiple days of seeing the same group of dogs run. Minors are less to put on for the opposite reasons and a place where the margins are probably the highest, especially in the derby. If we could involve more amateurs to run in those minors like we used to see 8 or 10 years ago, clubs might see a better return and be able to keep the entry fees lower. Unfortunately time has shown a change in difficulties in the minor stakes which was needed, however it's in large part taken the new amateur right out of the derby. 

I have an immense amount of respect for the two clubs in Minnesota that in large part all share members with another club and still being able to each put on 2 field trials each year with one club also putting on some large entry hunt tests as well. Then there's clubs like the San Diego and Phoenix clubs. Talking with one of their members last year who judges for us, it was a shame with what their inevitable outlook of their clubs were. Aging members, which there are only a half dozen to begin with and the youngest of their members are into their 60s and 70s. It's going to be a shame when those clubs will only exist if the pros that winter there can carry the torch. There's a lot of amazing history of our niche group in some of these clubs that won't exist for much longer.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> And that in its own demise is what will cause it to stop to the average participate....Remember...to some, it is a hobby and to others it is money.


The cost of the trial or test has nothing to do with anyone making money off of it. You guys seem to imply that these clubs are making out like a bandit. The cost isn't because they want to, it's because, as has been stated many times in this thread, it HAS to be that amount to pretty much break even! 

I'm sure clubs would love to charge $20 have huge numbers and have someone else organize and run the entire trial while they sit back in their easy chair in the gallery.

The little guy getting squeezed out is a result of the cost of doing business, not due to anyone's greediness.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Cowtown said:


> The cost of the trial or test has nothing to do with anyone making money off of it. You guys seem to imply that these clubs are making out like a bandit. The cost isn't because they want to, it's because, as has been stated many times in this thread, it HAS to be that amount to pretty much break even!
> 
> I'm sure clubs would love to charge $20 have huge numbers and have someone else organize and run the entire trial while they sit back in their easy chair in the gallery.
> 
> The little guy getting squeezed out is a result of the cost of doing business, not due to anyone's greediness.


I believe or think you missed my point. Suggestion....Sleep on it and then read it again.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> It saddens me that you came up with that conclusion on your part...As with all things..*.sooner or later it will become a rich"s man sport* as with so many of the other things we would love to do.... History in some way repeats itself in all venues.


Its ALWAYS been a rich man's sport, only the names have changed....the only equalizer is the trial itself...People dont seem to understand you are not trying to match the lifestyles of the rich and famous, you are only trying to compete and win against their dog...That is one of the reason's that a pro trainer has become a valuable commodity to the masses..Under the right circumstances an A list pro can make a newbie to the sport an instant contender inside of a couple of years...all you have to look and see how many times the National Derby champ or a dog in the Top 5 list has been sold to a new owner


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> ...As with all things..._*sooner or later it will become a rich"s man sport*_ as with so many of the other things we would love to do....:sad: History in some way repeats itself in all venues.





BonMallari said:


> Its ALWAYS been a rich man's sport, only the names have changed....the only equalizer is the trial itself...*People dont seem to understand you are not trying to match the lifestyles of the rich and famous, you are only trying to compete and win against their dog*...


Bless you, Bon, of course it has ALWAYS been a rich man's sport, history has never *stopped* repeating itself in that regard. What's changed is the democracy of the thing - and the opportunity for us hoi polloi to play right there alongside the FT aristos and their pros. Cost of entry irregardless, you pays yer money, you takes yer chances. Whatever chance you may have, like everything else in life. And freedom ain't free, either.

Ask Polmaise or Kennel Maiden - or any of our other august British-Scots-Irish members - what hoops they have to jump through (and pounds sterling or Euros in club "subscriptions" they have to pay) just to get a run in a field trial. 

Bitching about the cost of entry fees notwithstanding, this is a great country...freedom for and financial means at entering retriever field trials very much included.

MG


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

5,000 views in less then 24 hours. Pretty good I think .


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

In CA I paid $79.50 on EE to enter an AKC JH. It is what it is. It would cost me that much for green fees at a decent golf course. I'd rather spend $80 and hang out with my dog all day than walk around hitting a little white ball.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

delawarebluehen said:


> 5,000 views in less then 24 hours. Pretty good I think .


Your pot stirring worked


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

delawarebluehen said:


> And the more I think about this I remember buying flyers ten years ago for 10.00 or 12.00 dollars. How much is Del Bay paying bird throwers?


I think this statement speaks volumes as to where you are coming from. With so little knowledge and experience as to the cost and details of a FT or HT, how can you even comment on the cost of the premium? As with most all non profit, volunteer organizations, there are three basic groups, Chiefs, Indians, and the peanut gallery. I am proud to say that I have served as both an Indian and a Chief in a number of organizations and would be ashamed if I had ever sat in the peanut gallery only to offer complaints. To be sure, Chiefs have the most difficult and frustrating job. They not only set policy but many times are also responsible for carrying out these policies. Now Indians, an Indian has the best job of all. Just two simple rules. 1 do what you are told and 2 KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and offer no criticisms and no suggestions. That way you do not have to pay attention to the peanut gallery and just let the Chiefs respond. You talk about losing sleep, then just be a Chief and listen to the peanut gallery. This thread is an example. 

As an Indian, I don't complain about the grounds, tests, judges(I haven't even read any of the rule books. The judges will tell me how they interpret them.), lunches if I am helping, weather, or even the ribbons, should my dogs get one. I don't go to annual meetings, never read a finantial report and above all tried not to offer any suggestions. I am afraid that by doing so, I would show how much SMARTER(wit intended), that I am and would have to serve as a Chief.

Have those who have volunteered their time and to some extent their money, to serve as a Chief, answered you harshly? Maybe not and maybe so. My response to you is to VOLUNTEER YOUR TIME. I am sure there are Chiefs in your local club who would welcome your help and be glad to teach you the ropes so that they could eventually step down and like me just enjoy the experience of running their dogs. I assure you there is not a Chief out there that would not be happy to pass the responsibility to someone who could do a better job than they are doing. How about it. Go to your local club and tell the Chiefs that you also would like to eventually be a Chief and are willing to gain the knowledge and experience to be one. Your club will be eternally grateful. Let us know when you do so.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

caryalsobrook said:


> As an Indian, I don't complain about the grounds, tests, judges(I haven't even read any of the rule books. The judges will tell me how they interpret them.), lunches if I am helping, weather, or even the ribbons, should my dogs get one. *I don't go to annual meetings*, never read a finantial report and above all tried not to offer any suggestions. I am afraid that by doing so, I would show how much SMARTER(wit intended), that I am and would have to serve as a Chief.


Cary,

You have been lucky. In my experience, not going to the annual meeting is the #1 way to get moved up to a position of authority. If one is not there, other folks may forget about past incompetence and decide you might be management material.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

delawarebluehen said:


> 5,000 views in less then 24 hours. Pretty good I think .


and hasn't changed a thing


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

caryalsobrook said:


> I think this statement speaks volumes as to where you are coming from. With so little knowledge and experience as to the cost and details of a FT or HT, how can you even comment on the cost of the premium? As with most all non profit, volunteer organizations, there are three basic groups, Chiefs, Indians, and the peanut gallery. I am proud to say that I have served as both an Indian and a Chief in a number of organizations and would be ashamed if I had ever sat in the peanut gallery only to offer complaints. To be sure, Chiefs have the most difficult and frustrating job. They not only set policy but many times are also responsible for carrying out these policies. Now Indians, an Indian has the best job of all. Just two simple rules. 1 do what you are told and 2 KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and offer no criticisms and no suggestions. That way you do not have to pay attention to the peanut gallery and just let the Chiefs respond. You talk about losing sleep, then just be a Chief and listen to the peanut gallery. This thread is an example.
> 
> As an Indian, I don't complain about the grounds, tests, judges(I haven't even read any of the rule books. The judges will tell me how they interpret them.), lunches if I am helping, weather, or even the ribbons, should my dogs get one. I don't go to annual meetings, never read a finantial report and above all tried not to offer any suggestions. I am afraid that by doing so, I would show how much SMARTER(wit intended), that I am and would have to serve as a Chief.
> 
> Have those who have volunteered their time and to some extent their money, to serve as a Chief, answered you harshly? Maybe not and maybe so. My response to you is to VOLUNTEER YOUR TIME. I am sure there are Chiefs in your local club who would welcome your help and be glad to teach you the ropes so that they could eventually step down and like me just enjoy the experience of running their dogs. I assure you there is not a Chief out there that would not be happy to pass the responsibility to someone who could do a better job than they are doing. How about it. Go to your local club and tell the Chiefs that you also would like to eventually be a Chief and are willing to gain the knowledge and experience to be one. Your club will be eternally grateful. Let us know when you do so.


1. I don't bow down to know one. Your rule of keeping my mouth shut well me and you would have a problem. 2 . As one person said most field trial groups that put on events are small. I wonder why that is. Also in my buiness if I don't optain enough sales durning the year I am out of buiness. I can't believe more people are not signing up to run trails . More entries mean more money. But I forgot rule number 2 my job is to keep my mouth shut. So tell me again why I should volunteer my time. So I can just bow down to a few. Oh and I lost no sleep last night


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

REBEL RIDGE FARMS said:


> Blue hen you are missing the point! It's the amount spent on the grounds . Which allows others to use these grounds . Where is this cash coming from. ? We always have great help, judges,shoot 2 fliers in all stakes and grounds at all delbay trials. Birds by the way are with delivery cost 12-14 pheasants and ducks 12-14. Shells are not cheap you need to use steel and are 112.00 per case. Help by the way 9 and hour with hunter safety . I forgot the kicker long days with lunch and breakfast.


Lynn/Jeff, you get birds for 12-14$ WITH DELIVERY? WOW, we would be swimming in cash if we could get ducks for 14 bucks. Delivered!


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

DarrinGreene said:


> and hasn't changed a thing


Your right. My next post will be about collars or obedience


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> 1. I don't bow down to know one. Your rule of keeping my mouth shut well me and you would have a problem. 2 . As one person said most field trial groups that put on events are small. I wonder why that is. Also in my buiness if I don't optain enough sales durning the year I am out of buiness. I can't believe more people are not signing up to run trails . More entries mean more money. But I forgot rule number 2 my job is to keep my mouth shut. So tell me again why I should volunteer my time. So I can just bow down to a few. Oh and I lost no sleep last night



Why is it that the posters who are most out spoken are anonymous?


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

delawarebluehen said:


> 1. I don't bow down to know one. Your rule of keeping my mouth shut well me and you would have a problem. 2 . As one person said most field trial groups that put on events are small. I wonder why that is. Also in my buiness if I don't optain enough sales durning the year I am out of buiness. I can't believe more people are not signing up to run trails . More entries mean more money. But I forgot rule number 2 my job is to keep my mouth shut. So tell me again why I should volunteer my time. So I can just bow down to a few. Oh and I lost no sleep last night


As to 1. it is interesting that you won't listen(bow down) to those who have knowledge or experience and at the same time expect those that do have knowledge and experience to listen(bow down) to you. Typical of the peanut gallery. As to 2. you wonder why those who put on FT's and HT's are few in number, you might find out should YOU volunteer your time(forget money), and see the problems they have. THEN should you have better ideas, you could implement them. 

I have been privileged to train with many accomplished amateurs and pros. The LAST thing I ever did was to try to tell them what they were doing wrong. I LISTENED. If you call that bowing down, then I was happy to do so.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

1. I was complety convinced last night that 100.00 entries are what its going to cost. Well then so be it. And your right who am I to ever question a chair of a trial. But I forgot that this is Nazi Germany ...and I should just keep my mouth shut. 2 I would have loved to have heard one person just one person say "you know as a chairman we may need to do s better job at selling are club and trials to the professional trainer and finding a way to convince them to attend are event. We as field trailers maybe need to have more training days so the new person on the block can come and enjoy this wonderful sport that has been around for so many years and there is a reason why it has been apart of our life .." but no I am told to volunteer keep my mouth shut and that the life and heart beat of or sport is just fine. Well OK then its fine .


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

delawarebluehen said:


> 1. ......As one person said most field trial groups that put on events are small........So tell me again why I should volunteer my time........


in every retriever club it is the same. 8-12 folks do everything. in clubs that offer a field trial, hunt test and Field Test it is still the same dozen that come to do stuff. and they will have a score of members who talk about working. yet when the phone rings it is just like what you typed above. "why should I?" like they sang in the Rocky Horror Picture Show, you can dream it, or be it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> 1. I was complety convinced last night that 100.00 entries are what its going to cost. Well then so be it. And your right who am I to ever question a chair of a trial. But I forgot that this is Nazi Germany ...and I should just keep my mouth shut. 2 I would have loved to have heard one person just one person say "you know as a chairman we may need to do s better job at selling are club and trials to the professional trainer and finding a way to convince them to attend are event. We as field trailers maybe need to have more training days so the new person on the block can come and enjoy this wonderful sport that has been around for so many years and there is a reason why it has been apart of our life .." but no I am told to volunteer keep my mouth shut and that the life and heart beat of or sport is just fine. Well OK then its fine .



Easy to bitch.
Hard to do.

You say you have a training group. 
Start a club. 
Find some training grounds. 
Put on a trial. 
Do the things you want others to do. 
Show us how to do it the right way. 
If you're not willing to invest in the effort, then why should anyone else?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

delawarebluehen said:


> .... I would have loved to have heard one person just one person say "you know as a chairman we may need to do s better job at selling are club and trials to the professional trainer and finding a way to convince them to attend are event.....



have low numbers ever been an issue for Del-Bay?
what number would you hope to shoot for Blue?
How many dog are you able to let run in your weekend trial?
how many dogs a day are you O.K. with looking at? 
I know, I know, time of year and daylight you will have. But on average Blue, what do you do?


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I have never said it was easy . Anything worth doing is never easy. And you are right also. Who am I to ever question anything that a chairman of a trial does, says or places into action. You are right. I am sorry.


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

I would think 100 dog open 80 dog Am 30 in the q 20 in the derby. 230. And I don't think numbers have been an issue for del bay that's why I was surprised by the increase.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

To add into the accounting side of things, don't forget the ever rising costs that AKC slaps us with for each dog entered and the cost for the club to even put on an event that goes right into their bank account.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

B Peterson said:


> Secret?...no
> I just haven't heard somebody with standing state it.
> But I don't think an increase in $15-$20 entry fee's is what pushed most of us out. IMO if somebody is worried about $20 in this game they should find a different hobby.


I hate that agrgument with a passion. It's used to justify every new fee and tax increase as insubstantial and that we're all a bunch of pikers to complain. Remember when the Entry Express fee was first instituted, and then raised? Same crappy argument. Every increase to my property taxes was presented as "only" a few cents per thousand, now it's being reflected as cents per hundred, soon it will be cents per dollar. Ever hear the expression "death by a thousand pin pricks" ? 

I guess I'm just pissed off by the dawning realization that our quality of life is being eroded $20 at a time. You hardly notice it, until you notice it.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

TroyFeeken said:


> To add into the accounting side of things, don't forget the ever rising costs that AKC slaps us with for each dog entered and the cost for the club to even put on an event that goes right into their bank account.


Let's put some numbers on the AKC fees you mentioned ...

1. the application fee (what the club pays when they apply to hold an event) is $35 if you are not an AC club member and $25 if you are an AKC club member

2. after the event is over, the club pays a recording fee of $3.50 per dog. 

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> By and large field trials are put on by very small groups of people. A club puts on a FT because the next week, another one will put on another FT. We each go through the brain damage of putting on a FT because we know that down the road someone else is going to do so. And because we all know that unless each of us takes our turn in the barrel, there will be no FT to run. We work one weekend, so we can run the next.


Well said, Ted. 

Helen


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> My next post will be about collars or obedience


bluehen - instead, how 'bout *cackling at Senator Boxer and House Majority Leader Pelosi* over the idea of seeking field trial political asylum?

MG


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

delawarebluehen said:


> I have never said it was easy . Anything worth doing is never easy. And you are right also. Who am I to ever question anything that a chairman of a trial does, says or places into action. You are right. I am sorry.


When you do it on a public forum, you betcha those who have been there, done that and have the t-shirts to prove it are going to defend that club/chairman.

If you have an issue with a specific action a club is taking, you can easily contact them privately via contact info contained within the premium. Then maybe you would have not stirred up the responses that you have.

Keep in mind, if ya dish it out, you better be able to take it...don't complain because the masses stood up for the club you targeted in your rant, really? 

FOM


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

FOM said:


> When you do it on a public forum, you betcha those who have been there, done that and have the t-shirts to prove it are going to defend that club/chairman.
> 
> If you have an issue with a specific action a club is taking, you can easily contact them privately via contact info contained within the premium. Then maybe you would have not stirred up the responses that you have.
> 
> ...


I am fine with the 100.00 entry fee. I am convinced that it is need. You are right. I am fine with what I stirred up. After work today I will go home grad the dog and go out and prepare for the next trial as well as I can. I will enter my dog at the trials I can and will skip the ones I can't . But I will be at Del Bay ...


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## delawarebluehen (Apr 22, 2011)

6,000 views in 24 hours that has to be some short of a record.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Next !!!!!!!!


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## mjolnir (Nov 21, 2004)

Even in Canada, the entry fee is a topic of discussion. We just had our meeting to establish our fees for our Spring Field Trial and are faced with the same problems and decisions as our southern neighbors. The entry fee does not cover the expenses of the trial and unless you are involved with the workings of the club one has no idea. Club insurance, freezer, equipment replacement and maintenance are taken for granted by non-club members. Our fees are up to $75 to $80 and you can bet that we do not fly judges in, have the expense of flyers, etc that are common place in the States. Add these to our profit and loss statement and we would easily be at $100. 
One should be thankful that clubs are putting on trials as has been pointed out - in Ontario as is in the States, 10 to 12 members are usually doing the work.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm My feeling is $100 for an open, the Pros and Hard-core people are gonna pay any price to run an open no matter what. They are not concerned about entry fee price. The Amateur might care if those prices reach too high, and a trial might lose some entries because of it, but the vast majority of Insane FT Amateur peeps, will run regardless as well. Now you keep the Minor stakes down reasonable, and the casually FT person still comes out to play in the minors (every once in awhile); You raise the minor fees, and the amateur not being fully insane-invested FT peeps yet, will balk at more money and a good possibility of seeing one bird-one series, well they'll go play the HT game where they have a better chance of some return on their investment. 

Thus when we run tests we ensure we keep the lower stakes as reasonable as we can, hoping to turn the newbies into insane people who don't care about entry fees .
We've even contemplated lowering fees in the Mid-stake (our lowest entry), to encourage people to try it; after at some point the Insane Run Regardless people, might expire in their lawn-chairs, we got to have the newbies hooked before that happens .


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## Kim Williams (Apr 29, 2009)

The entry fee is not $100 it is $104.50, you are not getting around the Shane's kids college fund.


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Shane is no longer associated with EE. It was sold, although he has yet to get a dime.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

If it were up to me I would have tacked a little more on to the Open and lower the Derby a smidge, after all it uses the least in the way of the resources 

john


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I would rather play Pebble Beach once in my lifetime than spend a summer running, training and paying for my dogs!!!




Dave Farrar said:


> In CA I paid $79.50 on EE to enter an AKC JH. It is what it is. It would cost me that much for green fees at a decent golf course. I'd rather spend $80 and hang out with my dog all day than walk around hitting a little white ball.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Wade said:


> I would rather play* Pebble Beach *once in my lifetime than spend a summer running, training and paying for my dogs!!!


Funny story about PB. My cousin met Tom Watson several years ago at a Ren Fair. Cousin is Puke of Snot and Puke. Any way,, he was trying for months to get a spot at Pebble and was put on numerous waiting lists. Happened to call Watson to say hi, mentioned Pebble, Watson no sooner hangs up than PB calls cus with a tea time. Prettyy cool. He has even gotten to paly a fw times with him. I am very envious.

I agree Wade, PB wis one I never could get on when visiting Relatives in Cal. Played Olympic and some Marin Cty courses, but never made it on PB.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Where I get lost in all of this Troy is this,
how is it that your club and the couple I am a member of can charge in the $70-80 range and make it work? Taking into account that in the area we live in the clubs own the property, plus have the same cost outside of the property. Everything else being equal I don't get it. Maybe the FT game has simply out grown itself.



TroyFeeken said:


> If you're tired of seeing prices of trials go up, donate your grounds, donate your time to throw birds, donate yourself to work in the kitchen and feed all the workers, donate birds you raised.
> 
> Add all those things together and then add in maintenance of equipment like popper guns and blinds and umbrellas and bug spray and sun screen and lots of water when it's 100 degrees. I could go on. Being a past treasurer, a field trail and hunt test committee chair person, I've seen it all. Add onto that increases in property tax for those of us that own our own land as well as increased liability insurance.
> 
> I think we could all cut a fairly decent chunk of money required to put on a trial if people from the gallery would throw birds but then you'd put up with the peanut gallery saying that bird isn't landing in the same spot within a foot every time a gun change happens.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Wade said:


> Where I get lost in all of this Troy is this,
> how is it that your club and the couple I am a member of can charge in the $70-80 range and make it work? Taking into account that in the area we live in the clubs own the property, plus have the same cost outside of the property. Everything else being equal I don't get it. Maybe the FT game has simply out grown itself.


Sounds like their birds are about $10 a piece more than ours typically. We're in a good spot for bird access as well as having a lot of clubs running trials and tests the same weekend typically which cuts down on delivery charges when they can make multiple stops. Also their membership count is much smaller than ours so I'd assume they're hiring more bird boys. We are also lucky with our location and having a decent number of good all age judges within a 5 hour or so drive so we rarely fly anyone in to judge. Doesn't take much to make up that extra $20 per dog entry fee.


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## H2O_Control_guy (Jul 14, 2009)

Crap, I just spent the last 45 minutes reading this when I should have been working on background organization stuff for our spring HT.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Wade said:


> I would rather play Pebble Beach once in my lifetime than spend a summer running, training and paying for my dogs!!!


I guess that is what makes the world go round. I would not trade 1 day of training and being with my dogs for a year of weekly playing Pebble Beach. I take that back. I would trade a day if my playing partners included Bob Hope ad Bing Crosby.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

"Bird Management" No reason for $100 entry fees. If a NAHRA club can rent the same grounds as an AKC club does and stays in the black...


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Until you put on a field trial, it is hard to appreciate the costs associated with it. For example,
> - insurance
> - lease
> - shells
> ...


Exactly! People don't have a clue what it costs to put on a trial. And there is new equipment when the old stuff gives out, lunches for the workers in addition to the judges meals..


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Wade said:


> I would rather play Pebble Beach once in my lifetime than spend a summer running, training and paying for my dogs!!!


Funny you should mention Pebble Beach - seems our intel has ID'd ol' bluehen, and it turns out he has great familiarity with the grounds where DelBay's trials are run. So in the spirit of Pebble Beach, next thing to do is try and get him one of those exemptions like the PGA hands out - or at least a partial exemption - or failing that, maybe a cup of coffee and a muskrat sammich for breakfast before test dog's called... May not be a $50 flier, but that's the least we can do in welcoming the return migration of a fellow Blue Hen.

MG


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> "Bird Management" No reason for $100 entry fees. If a NAHRA club can rent the same grounds as an AKC club does and stays in the black...


Interesting analogy. Haven't really put much thought into the differences, and probably should before I post, but Hunt Tests around here are still around $75 for Master, and most of the costs and requirements are the same as a Field Trial. Greater number of total series in a 4 stake Trial that require resources than in a 3 stake Hunt Test (unless you add an O/H Qual as we do), but the number of competitors in the last two series are generally pared down significantly from the start. O/H Quals associated with Hunt Tests start on Friday, and usually finish the same day, but they do add the fourth stake and a third day like a Trial. Is the added cost solely attributed to the extra day it takes to run a Trial? Oftentimes the Derby and Qual judges are the same so there should be an economy gained there. Gotta think about it some more...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

First, it is not a $100 entry really. When you consider that the Amateur entry is $80, the cost for an Amateur running his/her dog in the Open and Amateur is $90. So you ought to look at the numbers in that light.

Second, costs vary from region to region, club to club. You need to look at the numbers before concluding that entry costs are too high.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> "Bird Management" No reason for $100 entry fees. If a NAHRA club can rent the same grounds as an AKC club does and stays in the black...


Would you still be in the black W/O a raffle?


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Until you put on a field trial, it is hard to appreciate the costs associated with it. For example,
> - insurance
> - lease
> - shells
> ...


When I started Scatter Creek Retiever Club I did the math and 
All but land charge I can put a trial on for $8000.00 +or - 200.00
That was 
Insurance 
Birds 
Bird boys and girls good ones 
Judges really good ones 
Motels cheap 
Food lunches drinks the lunches were hot and made by me and help
Ribbons 
Ammo
Judges gifts 
Trophies 
Ect... 
And our entries I believe where 75-80 
And know I could bring down the entry fee 
In the following year my plan was to get them down 
Too 70.00 for all stakes. 
I understand why entries are rising but if you do the work 
As a club the trial cost can come way down. 
Granite our judges where great and keep travel down two flew
Inn but they were awesome with cheap fares


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> When I started Scatter Creek Retiever Club I did the math and
> All but land charge I can put a trial on for $8000.00 +or - 200.00
> That was
> Insurance
> ...


$8000 divided by 80 entries is $100.

All of our bird throwers & planters are adults, costing us a few thousand dollars for a trial (including workers compensation) on top of all of the other costs.


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

The had trial 150 entries I think with a couple scratches which is average 
For local trials


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Wished I could put a trial on for $8k...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am amazed that people can tell others that they can put on a trial for ______ without knowing what their cost structure is.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Here are some real life numbers from the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club Field Trial Fall 2012


Entry fees $8330
• 40 Open (85)
• 34 Amateur (75)
• 17 Qualifying (70)
• 17 Derby (70)


Entry Express (453)
• Set up
• Catalogs
• Ribbons 

Birds (1455)


Teal Lodge (1970)
• Land
• Rooms for judges
• Judges’ meals
• Worker lunches 


Judges expenses (1668)
• Four out of state judges


Judges gifts (180)


AKC Fees (330)
Scratches (435)
Bird boys (1250)
Trophies (200)

Remainder *389
*
We typically bring our judges in. We like having people judge that have not judged in our region

Note that the following costs are not included
- Liability Insurance
- Poppers/Live Shells
- NRC dues
- NARC dues

We have increased our fees in $5 increments per year, and our margins remain the same - very thin

We are not too far away from $100 entry fees


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> Here are some real life numbers from the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club Field Trial Fall 2012
> 
> 
> Entry fees $8330
> ...


Ted,
I am soul searching here...What does it take to have those who had a dream to at least have a chance to participate.....Maybe a barter system? Just thinking out loud so to speak to those who would love to entry?....

Benny


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BJ

I don't have any great answers for you. I will be 59 this year. It would much more prudent for me to put the money I spend on dogs into my retirement funds. 

Ted


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> BJ
> 
> I don't have any great answers for you. I will be 59 this year. It would much more prudent for me to put the money I spend on dogs into my retirement funds.
> 
> Ted


I understand, but our dogs IMO bring us a reason to wake up in the morning with a cold nose and a happy tail to say....Goood Morning and what can I do for you today??? Just saying. I don't like to be alone and I need a significant other or dogs to have a reason in all of the mess that is going around to make sense in my life to keep going on.

BJ


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Erin O'Brien said:


> I run mostly trials, but have never dealt with the finances of a trial, but have with our local hrc hunt tests. We seem to really make some good money with a raffle. I haven't ever seen a raffle at a field trial, except an o/h q in conjunction with a hunt test. Is there a reason? People aren't interested? Too much work? Good raffles could be primer guns, wingers, radios, etc, stuff people can never seem to have enough of for $20 tickets.


Yes, and lots of companies give clubs discounts on raffle items, as well as complete donations. Last year I was the raffle ticket seller for PRTA here in the WIllamette Valley. Tritronics donated a collar, Avery donated car mats and other sweet stuff.. I raised over $900.00 for them, and the money covered lunches and I hear whatever was left went to land grants.

In Alaska, our clubs hold raffles as well as yearly "banquets" for fund raising. Without these fund raisers, we would not be able to hold events...

To quote John Lash, it IS alot of work for the person getting the donations, and doing a banquet. But the raffle type Erin is suggesting is easy. A board/club member calls Tritronics, and whoever.. Then the Chair of the trial sucks in an Amateur like myself, who is a fast talker and general BS'r, to sell those tickets! I made signs for the holding blinds for all to read. I had all the lovely prizes displayed on my tailgate in a strategic location so everyone would have to pass by me. Anyhow....


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> Yes, and lots of companies give clubs discounts on raffle items, as well as complete donations. Last year I was the raffle ticket seller for PRTA here in the WIllamette Valley. Tritronics donated a collar, Avery donated car mats and other sweet stuff.. I raised over $900.00 for them, and the money covered lunches and I hear whatever was left went to land grants.
> 
> In Alaska, our clubs hold raffles as well as yearly "banquets" for fund raising. Without these fund raisers, we would not be able to hold events...
> 
> To quote John Lash, it IS alot of work for the person getting the donations, and doing a banquet. But the raffle type Erin is suggesting is easy. A board/club member calls Tritronics, and whoever.. Then the Chair of the trial sucks in an Amateur like myself, who is a fast talker and general BS'r, to sell those tickets! I made signs for the holding blinds for all to read. I had all the lovely prizes displayed on my tailgate in a strategic location so everyone would have to pass by me. Anyhow....


Those free hair cuts you gave were pretty popular. never seen so many hats sold....

/Paul


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Golddogs said:


> Would you still be in the black W/O a raffle?


We would if we don't bring in all out-of -area judges. In Ted's example saving 2 judges and using from the club would have paid for shells and insurance. In NAHRA our wives and kids help out potluck meals, kids planting blinds etc. NAHRA pay the help??? We are the help-Now that's a novel idea! But I understand as the AKC club I belong to I'm one of the youngest and I'm a grandpa! I expect Ted that the second test of the year you can have less bird expenses 
Having a simple raffle can work, but it all depends on quitting time!


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Well we did and I could do it again!!! I just work harder!! I begged a pleaded 
For better deals on every thing and cut unnoticeable corners with ammo 
Ribbons trophies judges gifts and food ect... Most clubs from what I've seen just pay 
The price tag price well that's why you ain't going to make it in the real world and have to 
Raise entry fees


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> Well we did and I could do it again!!! I just work harder!! I begged a pleaded
> For better deals on every thing and cut unnoticeable corners with ammo
> Ribbons trophies judges gifts and food ect... Most clubs from what I've seen just pay
> The price tag price well that's why you ain't going to make it in the real world and have to
> Raise entry fees


​Show us the numbers


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I"m just a little confused here.
I just read a curently running thread about a club that is building a new clubhouse complex which will require a large capitol outlay, [email protected] $85, $75, $70 ,$70.... their entry fees remain among the lowest in the sport .


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> We would if we don't bring in all out-of -area judges. In Ted's example saving 2 judges and using from the club would have paid for shells and insurance. *In NAHRA our wives and kids help out potluck meals, kids planting blinds etc. NAHRA pay the help??? We are the help-Now that's a novel idea!* But I understand as the AKC club I belong to I'm one of the youngest and I'm a grandpa! I expect Ted that the second test of the year you can have less bird expenses
> Having a simple raffle can work, but it all depends on quitting time!


You do realize it is not the 1950s anymore? A lot of wives are working full time, heck some of them are running dogs themselves. :wink:

I'd rather pay a larger entry fee than be expected to buy crap that I don't really want at a raffle.

My husband would rather I pay a larger entry fee than have to throw rotten duck carcasses, and then hide behind a shrub, all day in the hot sun. He's got his own hobbies. 

Club members are working hard, but a large FT or HT can require many more workers than there are club members.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I"m just a little confused here.
> I just read a curently running thread about a club that is building a new clubhouse complex which will require a large capitol outlay, [email protected] $85, $75, $70 ,$70.... their entry fees remain among the lowest in the sport .



I suspect that they: a) Own their own grounds; and b) members must either work trials or pay surcharge to avoid working trials


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> ​Show us the numbers


Ted let this be known I'm not a liberal alls I'm saying is I no first hand why clubs entries are high 
And that they can get them down it just takes WORK. As for my liberal comment I did the work and 
You could too but not from me handing it to you so it over for me on this subject can't waste anymore 
Time on here while the sun is shinning


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I suspect that they: a) Own their own grounds; and b) members must either work trials or pay surcharge to avoid working trials


Perhaps but wiith ownership comes the expense of it.... I am not in sync with members paying a surcharge plus the entry fee to keep the entry fee artificially low for others
The money must come from somewhere .

john


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

john fallon said:


> Perhaps but wiith ownership comes the expense of it.... I am not in sync with members paying a surcharge plus the entry fee to keep the entry fee artificially low for others
> The money must come from somewhere .
> 
> john


I believe you would pay the surcharge only if you did not work the event which kinda is necessary when your club takes on the host responsibility. Working would not exclude you from running a dog but if you have several dogs entered you may have a hard time looking other members in the eye if you don't work your fair share thus hire a replacement by paying the surcharge. What's wrong with that? 

Club members who use the excuse of running a dog to escape work/ hosting responsibilities raise many an eyebrow. It's been said here, when it is your turn , you do what needs to be done and enjoy the rest of the events when it's not your party.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> Ted let this be known I'm not a liberal alls I'm saying is I no first hand why clubs entries are high
> And that they can get them down it just takes WORK.


"It just takes work". The problem is... the same small number of club members are doing the work year in and year out. No matter how dedicated folks are to the sport and wanting to give back to it, after doing the work for years, folks get burned out. 

It is true a club can save money by cooking the judges dinner rather than take them to a restaurant. The problem is with many clubs... nobody will do the dinner. 

Jeff, I think the Scatter Creek Club is a relatively new one. I can remember my early years as a first-time club member. I was enthusiastic and volunteered for many things. After 12 years, I am getting a bit burned out. I am f.t. secretary, club treasurer, and I marshal. That should be enough. Somebody else can BBQ a dinner for the judges. 

Helen


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Madluke said:


> I believe you would pay the surcharge only if you did not work the event which kinda is necessary when your club takes on the host responsibility. Working would not exclude you from running a dog but if you have several dogs entered you may have a hard time looking other members in the eye if you don't work your fair share thus hire a replacement by paying the surcharge. What's wrong with that?
> 
> Club members who use the excuse of running a dog to escape work/ hosting responsibilities raise many an eyebrow. It's been said here, when it is your turn , you do what needs to be done and enjoy the rest of the events when it's not your party.


What you are saying in essence is : When you come to *my house *and run an $85 Open I should either work or pay a surcharge to see that you do not have to pay $100 .
When I come to *your house *where you have hired help and charge $100, I should just pay the hundred dollars to pay the help;-)

john


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

john fallon said:


> What you are saying in essence is : When you come to *my house *and run an $85 Open I should either work or pay a surcharge to see that you do not have to pay $100 .
> When I come to *your house *where you have hired help and charge $100, I should just pay the hundred dollars to pay the help;-)
> 
> john


In essence you are correct. The volunteers subsidize the cost of the tests and trials everywhere. Some are subsidized more than others.

Many of the clubs that own their own grounds have a two-class membership and membership fee. Working members are required to work X days a year at club tests/trials and/or work days maintaining their grounds; non-working members pay a higher membership fee.


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

john fallon said:


> What you are saying in essence is : When you come to *my house *and run an $85 Open I should either work or pay a surcharge to see that you do not have to pay $100 .
> When I come to *your house *where you have hired help and charge $100, I should just pay the hundred dollars to pay the help;-)
> 
> john


I'm saying nothing of the kind or even close just saying surcharges can offset a member not working by paying to replace oneself. Clubs often contend with members who want to show up when convenient or run dogs and not work but you cannot ignore those facts and keep costs down so they deal with it by surcharges. 

Frankly, it's surprising so many are dumbfounded by the difficulty of running an event and the inevitability of having to raise prices if it isn't possible to cover the expense. Thus, some clubs charge more and some less than others. No one is making anybody enter a club's event. So if the club feels $100 is what they must charge to facilitate the event by the rules then so be it. We are non profits not charities.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

What if expenses are offset by pros paying a surcharge based on number of dogs they enter? Of course that will filter down to their customers, but that is another conversation. After all, it is the amateur that puts the most into making these trials go and also the same that, too many times, are getting the short end of the stick.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

kjrice said:


> What if expenses are offset by pros paying a surcharge based on number of dogs they enter? Of course that will filter down to their customers, but that is another conversation. After all, it is the amateur that puts the most into making these trials go and also the same that, too many times, are getting the short end of the stick.


That would be opposite of a quantity discount. A quantity 'surcharge' that the owners pay. Seems like a good idea to me. I'm sure others will think it through more thoroughly and I am interested in what they have to say...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kjrice said:


> What if expenses are offset by pros paying a surcharge based on number of dogs they enter? Of course that will filter down to their customers, but that is another conversation. After all, it is the amateur that puts the most into making these trials go and also the same that, too many times, are getting the short end of the stick.



The Rules do not permit a surcharge or differential pricing within a stake.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Perhaps but wiith ownership comes the expense of it.... I am not in sync with members paying a surcharge plus the entry fee to keep the entry fee artificially low for others
> The money must come from somewhere .
> 
> john



It hardly matters, since you are not a part of their club.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> It hardly matters, since you are not a part of their club.


It does matter in that they and quite a few more, just like them are nowhere near the $100 threshold. 
Those of us that are , might want to give them that ain't a real close look....

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> It does matter in that they and quite a few more, just like them are nowhere near the $100 threshold.
> Those of us that are , might want to give them that ain't a real close look....
> 
> john


​You, and everyone else, can vote with your check book. If you don't want to pay, don't enter.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> What you are saying in essence is : When you come to *my house *and run an $85 Open I should either work or pay a surcharge to see that you do not have to pay $100 .
> When I come to *your house *where you have hired help and charge $100, I should just pay the hundred dollars to pay the help;-)
> 
> john



No. The club decides what the dues are for membership in the club, which includes training privileges on the grounds owned by the club. The dues may be paid in $$$, or they may be paid in sweat. The club then decides what it wants to charge for entries based on how the club prioritizes its particular needs. Like all clubs, members and potential members have a choice: a) don't join the club; b) join the club and abide by its rules; or c) join the club and change the rules.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> The Rules do not permit a surcharge or differential pricing within a stake.


I understand but it is something that should be explored.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> The Rules do not permit a surcharge or differential pricing within a stake.


Nothing in the rules prohibiting a $110 Open fee and a $60 Am entry fee is there?

A check writing non attending pro client cannot be counted on to be a volunteer for any job. {The lazy person who attends the trial but refuses to help is a whole other issue}


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Nothing in the rules prohibiting a $110 Open fee and a $60 Am entry fee is there?
> 
> A check writing non attending pro client cannot be counted on to be a volunteer for any job. {The lazy person who attends the trial but refuses to help is a whole other issue}



You didn't read what I wrote. No surcharge or differential pricing within a stake. 

I think you and others need to be careful how broadly you paint with your brush. 

This week my dog is running at Port Arthur. I am not there. There are people working at Port Arthur who will not be present when their pro runs their dog in the Colorado circuit, when I am working.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> You didn't read what I wrote. No surcharge or differential pricing within a stake.
> 
> I think you and others need to be careful how broadly you paint with your brush.
> 
> This week my dog is running at Port Arthur. I am not there. There are people working at Port Arthur who will not be present when their pro runs their dog in the Colorado circuit, when I am working.


I DID read what you wrote!!
Thus my question to youi that there isn't anything in the rule book that prohibits having a higher entry for the Open than for the Am?
If you charge $100 for the Open and $60 for the Am then if someone double stakes they pay an average of $80. However the Am who only runs the Am gets a small break. Sinc he is on the grounds running his dog wouldn't you agree that there is a better chance of getting him to help shoot flyer or throw birds, plant blinds, marshall etc than a non attending owner who is having a pro run his dog in the Open? 
Seems to be a possible option, if your goal is to increase the pool of potential EXPERIENCED volunteers. 

The Open routinely takes more resources than any other stake. Why shouldn't it cost more?

My experience is that at an Open you may have 80 dogs with a total of 60 of those 80 being run by 4 or 5 pros and maybe 10 Ams running the other 20 or so dogs. Whereas the same Trial may have an Am with 60 dogs with a total of maybe 35-40 handlers.
Logic tells me that it is more likely to get volunteer help from a pool of 35-40 handlers at the Am than from a pool of 15 or so handlers at the Open; particularly when we know that those 4 or 5 pro"s running a dozen or more dogs can't possibly find the time to {efficiently} break away to help. Additionally those pros frequently have dogs in the minor stakes make it even more unlikely that they can be part of the volunteer pool.

Ted I know that when you are at a Trial you offer to help. However the truth of the matter is that this weekend you are a non attending check writer who by definition cannot be counted on to help out. Likewise a hard working person who is in attendance this weekend and volunteers at the Port Arthur trial can not possibly be counted on to volunteer if he has a Pro run his dog on the Colorado circuit later this year and doesn't attend the trial.

I am of the opinion that increased attendance and volunteering would make the game better and should be encouraged and "incentivised" whenever possible. If you see it differently then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

When a new club request PERMISSION from the AKC to put on a licensed FT where AKC championship points can be earned they must prove to the AKC's satisfaction that they have the infrastructure to do so...part of that infastructure is active *prime* membership requirement. so the club is not just a half dozen or so well meaning folks working out of a brief case in the back of a dog truck. 

From what I am reading here, perhaps the AKC needs to have a recertification process :razz:

john


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

mjh345 said:


> I am of the opinion that increased attendance and volunteering would make the game better and should be encouraged and "incentivised" whenever possible. If you see it differently then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree


I don't believe anyone will disagree with your statement. It has been the predominant sentiment since the games began. This is what clubs do all over the country, however when they can do no more they raise the price. Each club membership votes on what to run and what to charge for each stake all while trying to do exactly what you suggest.

Then we decide if we want to enter ?


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Clubs are not there to make money but to be an organization that can function without the fear of going in the hole on trials and other events. If the price of birds and other essential items go up, $100 is not far from being the standard. Most clubs barley break even on each event, we usually go in the hole a little on our Trials and make it back up with our Hunt Tests. Ways for clubs to be able to lower cost of entries: Local Judges, cheaper birds (order a year out), Free help throwing birds, Access to usable land, Shot gun & popper shell donations, build memberships, Have a dinner or tailgate on Sat. to makeup cost, get creative. Clubs have to run events like a business or they will fold. I started chairing events when our club didn't have a HT for two years because of lack of money and interest, I found some great guys in Nebraska that showed me how to manage and put on a finically successful events. Run each event like a business; get people there by showing them that your HTs or Trials are a great time and money well spent. That’s why the HRC is growing; they throw a money raising Hoedown that pays for at least half the cost of the event. Building club memberships is answer to most problems we are discussing. Remember monthly club training days, have each member bring two people each time. Also remember the heart and soul of this game is the started and junior dogs. Don't overwhelm newcomers make sure the training day is mainly for them. Don't push away the individuals that just want gun dogs, allow your club to provide knowledge and a day for them to enjoy their dog.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> When a new club request PERMISSION from the AKC to put on a licensed FT where AKC championship points can be earned they must prove to the AKC's satisfaction that they have the infrastructure to do so...part of that infastructure is active *prime* membership requirement. so the club is not just a half dozen or so well meaning folks working out of a brief case in the back of a dog truck.
> 
> From what I am reading here, perhaps the AKC needs to have a recertification process :razz:
> 
> john



Great, just what we all need. Less clubs, less trials.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> I DID read what you wrote!!
> Thus my question to youi that there isn't anything in the rule book that prohibits having a higher entry for the Open than for the Am?
> If you charge $100 for the Open and $60 for the Am then if someone double stakes they pay an average of $80. However the Am who only runs the Am gets a small break. Sinc he is on the grounds running his dog wouldn't you agree that there is a better chance of getting him to help shoot flyer or throw birds, plant blinds, marshall etc than a non attending owner who is having a pro run his dog in the Open?
> Seems to be a possible option, if your goal is to increase the pool of potential EXPERIENCED volunteers.
> ...



Marc

First, the North Texas tried a pricing structure where the Open was $100 and the Amateur $60 (?). The AKC vetoed it.

Second, the Rule Book prioritizes the Open. Anything you do that penalizes the Open is going to run smack into the Rule Book

Third, there will always be a sliding scale of givers and takers. It is the nature of life. You are never going to escape the human condition.

Fourth, over the years, field trials have moved to a sport where everyone takes a turn in the field, to a sport where most contestants expect that the clubs will have bird boys to the majority of the work.

In short, I think we are all faced with the fact that the cost of field trials, like the cost of everything else will increase. 

Ted


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

I was going to start a new post but decided to put this here. According to Pet Insurance Zone the average cost of a visit to the Vet has soared to $190 for cats and $360 for dogs. Costs have risen approx 65% between 1998 and 2006.

Dog food has probably seen the same cost increases proportionally with reduced packaging.

I believe both examples have seen major improvements in quality and available care. However, I'm more offended about those effects on the costs of our pets than I am on whether a stake goes up $15. Yet, I can't say reading this thread people on this forum feel the same. I think the cost of club membership and entry fees have been maintained for a some time below what the marketplace pressures have forced clubs to contend with. Inevitably, we will pay or don't play.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> > When a new club request PERMISSION from the AKC to put on a licensed FT where AKC championship points can be earned they must prove to the AKC's satisfaction that they have the infrastructure to do so...part of that infastructure is active prime membership requirement. so the club is not just a half dozen or so well meaning folks working out of a brief case in the back of a dog truck.
> >
> > From what I am reading here, perhaps the AKC needs to have a recertification process
> >
> ...


NO !!! What we need less of is members of clubs that don't have enough of an infrastructure to pull their own weight insisting that the members of clubs that do have an infrastructure and do pull their own clubs weight... are then some how moraly bankrupt if they, for reasons of their own, chose not to bail the them out

john


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

My dad always says, "Don't argue with a lawyer, they're paid to represent only one side. And never argue with an engineer; never meet two with the same solution nor that didn't whole heartily believe the other was completely wrong."


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## REBEL RIDGE FARMS (Nov 27, 2010)

As a club member who is involved with Delbay .I stated in my original post we increased our price to help with trial cost but. To Also help us support the training grounds. We spend 12,000-15,000 on cutting and pond vegetation . Our club would lose these grounds if we did not cut and care for the canal . I was told if club did not care for this property the training grounds would close . The grounds are used by many pros and amateurs who fail to bag a bird or lift a crate at trials. Many others use these public grounds .So where can this money come from to support these grounds ? Comment made earlier was few do work for many ! SO NOW YOU KNOW THE REAL STORY!


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

helencalif said:


> "It just takes work". The problem is... the same small number of club members are doing the work year in and year out. No matter how dedicated folks are to the sport and wanting to give back to it, after doing the work for years, folks get burned out.
> 
> It is true a club can save money by cooking the judges dinner rather than take them to a restaurant. The problem is with many clubs... nobody will do the dinner.
> 
> ...


Helen 
I Agree completely when I started the club I let it be known that I wasn't running club for long I would set it up and set a infrastructure to follow I would get the pricing and show the new folks how to save money by not only cooking judges dinner and lunches for all but by not excepting the sticker price for goods that we needed for the trial to barter bag and steel to keep prices down one problem is that older folks either won't let go or there's nobody to take over for them and once we get burnt out we don't want to do the work anymore. At our tailgate we had dungeness crab that wasn't Fresh I spent 5 hours with seafood market arguing to get the 300.00 bucks back for the club.
It takes someone that will do the work and IMO a small board that sees the path they want to succeed and make trials fun. If your board don't see the same result and pull together you will fail and by fail I mean high entry fees unorganized trial and poor attitudes and that equals people not having fun at there weekend trial that they just spent 300.00 to 600.00 on the weekend to have a chance at a ribbon. The older clubs IMO need to keep the new members in rotation on the board And listen to them and there ideas
Putting on the trial wasn't hard it's easy it just takes one person with a lot of time and four others with the same view and a little time to give


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Dear Lord....and no I have constructive comments to add, but I'm sitting here shaking my head...you can really tell those who have truly been there and those who think that can do a better job...


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Me too just shakin my head unbelievable it's just crazy


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## kawarthalabs (May 30, 2005)

Rubber duckies would help lower the cost and maybe get the guy who developed the roto-duck to invent the roto-flyer so it could be used over and over again.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> Helen
> I Agree completely when I started the club I let it be known that I wasn't running club for long I would set it up and set a infrastructure to follow I would get the pricing and show the new folks how to save money by not only cooking judges dinner and lunches for all but by not excepting the sticker price for goods that we needed for the trial to barter bag and steel to keep prices down one problem is that older folks either won't let go or there's nobody to take over for them and once we get burnt out we don't want to do the work anymore. At our tailgate we had dungeness crab that wasn't Fresh I spent 5 hours with seafood market arguing to get the 300.00 bucks back for the club.
> It takes someone that will do the work and IMO a small board that sees the path they want to succeed and make trials fun. If your board don't see the same result and pull together you will fail and by fail I mean high entry fees unorganized trial and poor attitudes and that equals people not having fun at there weekend trial that they just spent 300.00 to 600.00 on the weekend to have a chance at a ribbon. The older clubs IMO need to keep the new members in rotation on the board And listen to them and there ideas
> Putting on the trial wasn't hard it's easy it just takes one person with a lot of time and four others with the same view and a little time to give



There is an old, but true saying: "Time is money."

So, bless your heart, Jeff, you spent a lot of your time to reduce costs. And other people volunteered their time to make dinners, etc. to reduce costs.

I would say to you - yes, your trial cost less - but, only because you donated additional time (that is, money) to do so.

I would respond, I donate enough time. I am not interested in donating more. And so, I will price my trial accordingly.

You have chosen a different path. Good for you. But, don't lose sight of the fact that you are keeping your costs artificially low by donating time (that is money) in large quantities.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

john fallon said:


> When a new club request PERMISSION from the AKC to put on a licensed FT where AKC championship points can be earned they must prove to the AKC's satisfaction that they have the infrastructure to do so...part of that infastructure is active *prime* membership requirement. so the club is not just a half dozen or so well meaning folks working out of a brief case in the back of a dog truck.
> 
> From what I am reading here, perhaps the AKC needs to have a recertification process :razz:
> 
> john


AKC requires the club to submit the list of its members annually. Just got our notification. Whether they read it or not, though, is a different question, but clubs are required to send them.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> AKC requires the club to submit the list of its members annually. Just got our notification. Whether they read it or not, though, is a different question, but clubs are required to send them.



Submitting a list and being vetted are two different things... remember Chuck and Mel http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...st-An-AKC-Licensed-Field-Trial-for-Retrievers 


john


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

John I don't know about your corner of the world but in mine most "clubs" consist of a handful of people who join together to put on a field trial, if required to have a large and active membership we would have few, if any, field trials to run. What we don't need is "vetting" and micromanaging.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> John I don't know about your corner of the world but in mine most "clubs" consist of a handful of people who join together to put on a field trial, if required to have a large and active membership we would have few, if any, field trials to run. What we don't need is "vetting" and micromanaging.


Here they are like_ most _of the other corners in this regard, there is a cross section... I know but few that consist of only a handfull of members total
But, if you all do and can pull it off, fine, have at it... then again http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...100-00-entry&p=1199310&viewfull=1#post1199310

john


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