# Long Distance Lining!!



## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

After running our first master test last weekend my mind has been working overtime! What do these guys(pros) do to maintain or improve a dogs' lining skills? Lardy says that dogs learn to go straight through handling. Do pros do anything other than handle to make a dog go straighter for a longer distance? My dog handles very well at this point. However, I would love for him to line a blind in a test just once!!! And I know that judges should set up a blind that should cause the dog to have to be handled. But, still, I see a few master dogs line the blinds. I want to be that guy one time! Do pros do lining drills for their advanced dogs or do they just set up blinds and run them and handle and not worry about how long the dog holds his line? I would think for field trial dogs that they have to do something to keep them on line for a long distance since the straightest line wins. What do they/you do? Thanks!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

They do a lot of things that mostly just stretch the dog out.

Set up super long blinds and follow the dog out to stay within a "controllable" distance.

Try to "always" set up your blinds at the _end of the field_ or the _end of the pond._ That gets the dog in the mindset that when you say "dead bird" or whatever, he thinks he's going to the horizon.

Run 3 or more back to back in a session.

JS


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## HoHum's Retrievers (Mar 22, 2007)

Jack's right, run longer blinds. I often am running 200 yard blinds or better even though I am running dogs in the hunt test arena and will seldom see blinds over 100 yards as per the rule. The idea is if you can run a dog on a 200 yard blind and maintain control of him out there, then a 100 yard blind may be a lot easier. Your dog and you will have more confidence. It is kind of like the guy who has been throwing all his marks from his side by hand and then when the dog has to go out on a 100 yard retrieve, the dog stops at precisely the point that the handler can hand throw a bumper and begins his hunt there. So if you train long on blinds, the dog is going to perhaps take that first 100 yards straight as an arrow with a head full of steam.

However, you can't just run long blinds and expect to be lining the blind. You have to have a dog that is confident at the beginning while you are setting him up and is looking out into the field and picking out his target, and that target better be the same one as you have in mind. You also need to run lots of blinds with factors, whether it be a point to go over, an obstacle to go over, under or through, suction form the bird crates, holding blind, gunner or old fall. 

Now with that said, I don' tknow anybody that trains with the idea of "lining the blind." They train to handle challenging blinds with as much style, perseverance and control as they can. If the dog lines it, WOOHOO! You got lucky. And if the blind is one that a lot of dogs are lining, the judges are probably not real happy with the test and wish it might have been a little more challenging. Been there, done that on both accounts.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

Lining drills don't teach dogs to carry straight lines over distance. They are basically to teach an INITIAL line. I follow Mike Lardy's program, so I naturally agree with him.

Here's what happens over a period of time, typically 6 or more months once your dog starts running blinds:

1) The first blind "experience" your dog has is typically pattern blinds. These are taught/known destinations. Dogs frequently line them quite easily for that reason. What we are doing here is building MOMENTUM. We just want the dog to go, go, go when sent on back. And then to simply distinguish between three different blinds -- ALWAYS in the same place, same field. We ONLY enforce go/stop/come. We do NOT look for precision casting. We simply want the dog to change direction when cast, even if it's not a perfect cast. As long as they make an EFFORT that's all we need at that point in training.

2) In Mike Lardy's program, we then move to blind drills. These are taught single blinds where we then introduce a gunner to the field and then a throw -- we run the blind one or more times before the gunner is introduced, after he's introduced and then after he throws a mark. This teaches the dog to change direction off distractions. So now we've advanced to a more complex scenario where we're teaching the dog to understand the change in direction with something (the gunner) en route to the blind.

3) At this point, we've either done or are also doing or will do... Pattern blinds with diversions. Back to the pattern blind field with marks set within the pattern blinds. Run a blind, throw a mark, run a blind, run another blind, throw a mark. We mix it up and again, add complexity to the changing of direction.

4) Then we're typically ready to run our first cold blinds. They're on flat, featureless fields with the wind at our back if there is any. We again simply ask for go/stop/come and a change of direction. And, while we'd LOVE to line all these blinds, we are working on MOMENTUM. They may look like giant zigzags on paper and that's ok.

HERE is where LINES start to develop....

All of our dogs early cold blinds are for MOMENTUM only. We are NOT trying to get them to take factors. We are just reinforcing the most basic concepts of blind running -- go/stop/come/change direction. Pressure is used sparingly, but if necessary. Attrition is used if the dog has problems changing direction -- for the most part, but it varies from dog to dog.

So, picture this... A first cold blind may look like a giant zigzag on paper. Over time, as the dog understands what a blind is, you'll see he'll get better at initial lines and you can tighten up that zigzag. When you do it right, you begin seeing LESS NEED for casting. The dog is starting to understand and is carrying lines and casts farther and farther.

A VERY IMPORTANT part of this process is YOUR COMMUNICATION AT THE LINE. One of my favorite training tidbits is from an Andy Attar seminar... And that is "SHEA" -- spine, head, eyes, attitude.

You line each of those things up prior to sending the dog. If your dog's spine is lined up 45 degrees to where you're sending him, you're sending the wrong message. NOW... With dogs just starting to run cold blinds, we're looser on "SHEA" -- we get their spine lined up and work on their head. But we don't nitpick, we want to just get them out of there. As they progress, we'll see them "lock on" better and better. And then we do the "full" "SHEA" and make sure the dog is very focused on the destination before sending them.

The dog will learn over time that the direction that you are communicating is where they need to run to without stopping until they find a bird... 

Soooooooooooooooo.... Lining blinds comes from:

1) Good transition from momentum (casting for change in direction adn to maintain good attitude/style) to literal casting (literal casting is where the cast, when taken, will take them directly to the bird) -- "tightening up the zigzag"

and

2) Good communication on the line -- setting your dog up properly, not nitpicking when they're just starting (will cause bugging and maybe nogos) but then building to where you and your dog can really work together in "locking on" to the destination so that when you send them, they carry that line as long and far as possible.

Hope this makes sense. If you follow Lardy's program, this is basically MY explanation of MY understanding of it...

-K


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Long blinds. I call 'em "Yee-Haw" blinds, because once a dog has had a few of them, they really get into the idea that they can run (and run, and run...). 

To get a dog that lines well, first you have to have a dog that can pick a spot on the horizon. Believe it or not, not all dogs have this capacity. Gopher does not. She just goes wherever my left foot is pointing, has no concept of an "end point". Really good blind-running dogs look out and say "I am going THERE", and "there" is where they head when you kick them off the line.

To teach a dog to stick closer to that initial line, you have to gradually tighten up the "lane" you cast within. With young dogs, we let them get a bit off line before stop-and-cast. This maintains momentum. As a dog develops confidence running blinds, you don't have to wait so long to blow the whistle and cast. The more blinds you run, and the more stop-and-cast your dog does, the more he will "tolerate" having his line corrected without losing confidence. You have to really read your dog.

All-age dogs and experienced Master dogs have run many, many blinds, and can handle even minute corrections to their line without breaking momentum. It is a gradual process. You don't want to strat out nit-picking, but build up to it, and you may end up with a dog who "gets it" and runs very clean blinds for you.

Oddly enough, Gopher, who has no clue where she is going, starts out slow, but tolerates minute corrections, and usually only needs two whistles, one to tell her when she is too far to the left, and one when she is too far to the right. After that, she runs like hell in a straight line, satisfied that I am firmly in the driver's seat. Strange dog!

Lisa


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

That is the most concise and best advise I think I have ever seen for the steps needed to teach / learn how to run blinds on this forum. Thank you, Kristie.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Kristie Wilder said:


> A VERY IMPORTANT part of this process is YOUR COMMUNICATION AT THE LINE. One of my favorite training tidbits is from an Andy Attar seminar... And that is "SHEA" -- spine, head, eyes, attitude.
> 
> You line each of those things up prior to sending the dog.


Great post, Kristie, and I agree that confirming "SHEA" at the line is very important. I sometimes see dogs sent when it's not all there and, not surprisingly, the initial line is bad. I make it a habit, once lining up the dog, to lean back and look carefully from the base of the tail, up the spine, to the head to the blind to confirm that we are lined up. I'll never forget when my late Belle lined both of the blinds on the land series this past Spring. I'm sure confirming her preparation helped.


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## Dick Langford (Sep 7, 2008)

As a new member of this forum, Kristie's explanation is outstanding. My dog is beginning cold blinds and his handler (me) was unsure as to what I was doing. Now I know. THANK YOU.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

The dog needs to be able to pick a point out in the distance and run to it...okay. I have never used white flags or buckets or anything to help because I figured later when I took the flag away it would turn into another problem I would have to address down the road. Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

Stephen Whitley said:


> The dog needs to be able to pick a point out in the distance and run to it...okay. I have never used white flags or buckets or anything to help because I figured later when I took the flag away it would turn into another problem I would have to address down the road. Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?


No markers. The SHEA thing works partly because you've hopefully lined your dog up consistently on marks from the first time you ever sent them... So the dogs already have an understanding of "go as sent" when you start running blinds. The only thing is you add is the "back" and the fact that they didn't see anything fall... So they already have some building blocks to work on lines... based on what you've done on marks.

-K


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

"she runs like hell in a straight line, satisfied that I am firmly in the driver's seat. Strange dog!"
Good Dog!!!! What must it be like to have one with that conviction?

Kristie, what a great explanation! I think I heard most of it at one of your retreats, but didn't really have enough knowledge at the time to understand it. Now that I am "there" its crystal clear! Funny how that works.


"Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?"

Stephen, I like your questions. I have used a white bucket at the end of a long channel blind and it did help define "keep going to the end of the water" but did not repeat that more than once. What can we do to get the dog to look FAR in a featureless field? All that wide open space confuses him.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

2tall said:


> "she runs like hell in a straight line, satisfied that I am firmly in the driver's seat. Strange dog!"
> Good Dog!!!! What must it be like to have one with that conviction?
> 
> Kristie, what a great explanation! I think I heard most of it at one of your retreats, but didn't really have enough knowledge at the time to understand it. Now that I am "there" its crystal clear! Funny how that works.
> ...


Thanks! Trust me..I have plenty of them!


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Excellent post Khristie !!!!


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> No markers. The SHEA thing works partly because you've hopefully lined your dog up consistently on marks from the first time you ever sent them... So the dogs already have an understanding of "go as sent" when you start running blinds. The only thing is you add is the "back" and the fact that they didn't see anything fall... So they already have some building blocks to work on lines... based on what you've done on marks.
> 
> -K


Thanks for the explanation, Kristie. My dog has lots of momentum and for the last several weeks I have been using a quick whistle on his blinds. As soon as I see him veer off line just a little I have been stopping him. And he takes the cast well, and his blinds have improved a bunch over the course of probably 2 months. By your explanation it sounds like I need to stretch him out. And through repitition his lines should start to tighten up?


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

Stephen Whitley said:


> Thanks for the explanation, Kristie. My dog has lots of momentum and for the last several weeks I have been using a quick whistle on his blinds. As soon as I see him veer off line just a little I have been stopping him. And he takes the cast well, and his blinds have improved a bunch over the course of probably 2 months. By your explanation it sounds like I need to stretch him out. And through repitition his lines should start to tighten up?


Well, it depends on the dog... But, on early blinds, I want them to run as far as they can to the point JUST BEFORE I know I couldn't recover them to the blind. This is on very first blinds...

Then YOU tighten up. You also have to look at WHY they are veering off line. We typically handle more quickly for lack of effort -- so if they are avoiding a factor then we would handle more quickly to make it clear. If they are just easing over offline, we might let them carry it a little longer (with a younger dog).

This is where it becomes more of an art than a science. You have to read your dog, understand what speeds them up or slows them down... And try to maintain a good attitude while improving your dog's performance on blinds. If you find that you're stopping your dog frequently, then maybe you are being too fussy or running blinds that are too complicated for now.

As you find your dog carries lines and casts longer then you can raise the standard for when you handle as well as add complexity to blinds...

The "bad" thing about where you are in training right now is improvement is seen over more time than it has been in the past. When you're on double T for example, you see improvement in virtually every lesson. When you're working on blinds and lines, you'll see it over weeks and months and not every single day. So you have to have some patience and just keep plugging away. Your ability to read your dog and learn how to run them on blinds -- it's different with every dog -- will also take time. This is even for people who have run dozens of dogs. It takes a while to learn how much your dog can take as far as being stopped, or fussed with on the line, or pressure for refusals... Some dogs need more attrition, some do better with pressure... So that's what YOU are looking to learn here while your dog is learning to carry lines...

-K


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Stephen Whitley said:


> The dog needs to be able to pick a point out in the distance and run to it...okay. I have never used white flags or buckets or anything to help because I figured later when I took the flag away it would turn into another problem I would have to address down the road. Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?


I don't. Some dogs just have an innate sense of where youi want them to go. The steps Kristie outlined give the dogs the tools they need. But some dogs are just natutrally better. Gopher and her half-brother Rummy (both my dogs) both went through the same basics program. Gopher can't pick out her destination worth beans. Rummy, from the very first time we ever did a blind with him, leaned into it, lasered into his spot, and told me "I'm going THERE." 

It's interesting, each dog's conviction makes for completely different handling technique on line. Because Gopher is *miserable*, having no clue where she is supposed to go, I can't fiddle with her too much. I have to be really careful how I approach the line, so that when I stop, my foot is pointing *exactly* where I want her to go. No finger-snapping, leg-slapping, hand-waving; not even a hand down when I send. Just walk up to the line, say "dead bird" and kick her off. 

Rummy, OTOH, can get the conviction that he is going *there* and if his conviction is wrong, I can reposition him, tell him "no" push-pull to my heart's content, and he doesn't lose momentum. "I'm going THERE." "No (push-pull). Dead bird." "Oh, OK, I guess I'm going THERE instead." 

Given my druthers, I prefer #2. But #1 has taught me a LOT about dog training and handling! And no, 2tall, she is NOT a "good dog", LOL! But Mummy wuvvs her just the same.

Lisa


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Stephen Whitley said:


> ........
> I have never used white flags or buckets or anything to help because I figured later when I took the flag away it would turn into another problem I would have to address down the road. Do you use any kind of marker to help the dog learn to look way out there?



I don't, for the same reasons you cite.

What I do though, later, after they are a little more accomplished and confident in running blinds is set up groups of blinds so they are all AT a landmark. Like a field with a bunch of small bushes or hay bales, etc ... I will put out 5 or 6 blinds, each one at a bale. After doing a few of these, when you point them toward an "object", they will begin to lock in on it.

Then other times, I will run a group of blinds in the same fashion, but each going _between_ the landmarks or objects. Likewise, they pick up pretty quickly the idea of running "up the slot".

Maybe it's just my imagination, but I think it seems to help them get the idea of looking for and picking out a "target" and trying to figure out just where it is you want them to go.

JS


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

JS said:


> I don't, for the same reasons you cite.
> 
> What I do though, later, after they are a little more accomplished and confident in running blinds is set up groups of blinds so they are all AT a landmark. Like a field with a bunch of small bushes or hay bales, etc ... I will put out 5 or 6 blinds, each one at a bale. After doing a few of these, when you point them toward an "object", they will begin to lock in on it.
> 
> ...


There ya go.  

You want to be able to line up a dog and have them pick a "destination point", when running your early, "no factor blinds." You just want the dog to run, keep it's head up and get the muscle memory of running straight. Always run more then one blind. A dog will always get better in a training session with blinds, the more blinds it runs, with the same concept.

Angie


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

And, I forgot to add .... keep it balanced!

JS


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

This brings up a good point...

I almost never run fewer than two blinds with young dogs. More than likely, we'll do a setup of JUST blinds, with 3-5 blinds EVERY time. For very young dogs, it will be in a fan-like arrangement, equidistant, no factors. For older dogs, learning factors or maintaining them, it will be 3-5 blinds with each successive blind being longer and harder (related to the factor) than the first one. For example, for older dogs I might set up multiple blinds that angle a ditch and then angle up a hill. The first one would have a mild angle across the ditch and a mild angle up less of the hill. The next one would be from the same line, but slightly to the right (for example) with a sharper angle across the ditch and a line that carries longer angling up the hill... The final blind would have an acute angle across the ditch, then carry the angle up the hill as far as possible. My trick to setting these out is to: 1) find a place where it makes sense to run something like this so you can fit multiple blinds across the same concept... and 2) set out my first, easiest blind and then set out my longest, hardest blind. Then stuff as many as I can in between while still providing separation and increasing difficulty.

-K


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

ps -- the reason we "always" run multiple blinds with young guys is because if they fudge one up, you have 2-4 more that you can use to recover and help them learn. This even often goes for older dogs. You want to be able to reinforce the concept and see if they learned what you were just showing them in the first blind. So if you stop there... You are missing an opportunity for repetition and learning ESPECIALLY when teaching factors...


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

This is great stuff! Thanks!!!


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

I have access to some 800 yd wide fields in the winter. The cover is cut corn or clover(deer bait). I'll run em as far as I can see em in these fields 400-450 yds and my eyes start to get fuzzy even with field glasses. I also like to set up combination diversion drills in these fields. Needless to say I don't do this stuff on days where the temp can be a factor.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Threads like this is why I look at this site everyday. Great job everyone.


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## A_Fever (Feb 24, 2007)

Thanks, sweet info.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> I have access to some 800 yd wide fields in the winter. The cover is cut corn or clover(deer bait). I'll run em as far as I can see em in these fields 400-450 yds and my eyes start to get fuzzy even with field glasses. I also like to set up combination diversion drills in these fields. Needless to say I don't do this stuff on days where the temp can be a factor.


There is a bean field across the street from where I teach. I look at it everyday trying to picture different blinds. It should be picked in a few weeks! It's one of the very few places around here that actually have a few small slopes!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Stephen,

Hang in there and keep at it.

Thanks for posting this on RTF.

It is very much appreciated!

Chris


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

DINGERTOBE!!!!


Are You readin this???

Fer the rest of you,, Dinger took Gooser under his wing,, and is tryin to teach him sumpin!!

This thread is a topic of dailey "DISCUSSION" for us!

Thanks all !!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

P.S.

Kristie is my hero!!

Gooser


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## Tim Thomas (Jan 31, 2008)

Truly a great post!!

As usual, Thanks Kristie.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> This brings up a good point...
> 
> I almost never run fewer than two blinds with young dogs. More than likely, we'll do a setup of JUST blinds, with 3-5 blinds EVERY time. For very young dogs, it will be in a fan-like arrangement, equidistant, no factors. For older dogs, learning factors or maintaining them, it will be 3-5 blinds with each successive blind being longer and harder (related to the factor) than the first one. For example, for older dogs I might set up multiple blinds that angle a ditch and then angle up a hill. The first one would have a mild angle across the ditch and a mild angle up less of the hill. The next one would be from the same line, but slightly to the right (for example) with a sharper angle across the ditch and a line that carries longer angling up the hill... The final blind would have an acute angle across the ditch, then carry the angle up the hill as far as possible. My trick to setting these out is to: 1) find a place where it makes sense to run something like this so you can fit multiple blinds across the same concept... and 2) set out my first, easiest blind and then set out my longest, hardest blind. Then stuff as many as I can in between while still providing separation and increasing difficulty.
> 
> -K



Yes, this is what really cements the blind-running concept into place. I am weird, I admit, but I really, REALLY love this part of training a young dog. As I move from one concept blind to the next in a training session, I can see that youngster learning right in front of my eyes! It is the greatest feeling. And things they learn in these blinds readily translate over to marks.

I have a young bitch right now who is going to be running a lot of concept blinds over the winter. She is a lot of fun, and I am really looking forward to it.

Lisa


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

labman63 said:


> Threads like this is why I look at this site everyday. Great job everyone.


....great thread.........  Thank you, Stephen Whiteley!! 


Judy (..are you related to Andy Whiteley?)


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## Art Stoner (Nov 18, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> DINGERTOBE!!!!
> 
> 
> Are You readin this???
> ...



Gooser

Okay you got me on here. I agree with Kristie in every respect, but I am thinking that you already knew that. Now if I can just get you to relax a little. I do not want to spoil your RTF image though!!

Art


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

Judy Chute said:


> ....great thread.........  Thank you, Stephen Whiteley!!
> 
> 
> Judy (..are you related to Andy Whiteley?)


No, and actuallly my last name is Whitley...one "e"! You're not the first to make that mistake! And you're wlecome! That's one good question in two years!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dinger has been trying to help me controll myself at the line,, and have the dog and myself somewhat relaxed BEFORE we run.

I have to say it has made a noticible difference on how the dog runs.

Much more confident and deliberate.

She seems to be more co-operative and willing to work as a team.

He also has shown me what LONG blinds are!:shock::shock:

What I called long blinds arnt even respectable lenght!!
A topic I am WAY to familiar with!

Gooser


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> This brings up a good point...
> 
> I almost never run fewer than two blinds with young dogs. More than likely, we'll do a setup of JUST blinds, with 3-5 blinds EVERY time. For very young dogs, it will be in a fan-like arrangement, equidistant, no factors. For older dogs, learning factors or maintaining them, it will be 3-5 blinds with each successive blind being longer and harder (related to the factor) than the first one. For example, for older dogs I might set up multiple blinds that angle a ditch and then angle up a hill. The first one would have a mild angle across the ditch and a mild angle up less of the hill. The next one would be from the same line, but slightly to the right (for example) with a sharper angle across the ditch and a line that carries longer angling up the hill... The final blind would have an acute angle across the ditch, then carry the angle up the hill as far as possible. My trick to setting these out is to: 1) find a place where it makes sense to run something like this so you can fit multiple blinds across the same concept... and 2) set out my first, easiest blind and then set out my longest, hardest blind. Then stuff as many as I can in between while still providing separation and increasing difficulty.
> 
> -K


I have a question for Kristie or anyone. When setting up these blinds w/ increasing difficulty-let's say the dog has done very well on the first couple of blinds-fighting factors, handling well, etc. Dog runs the last-everything but the kitchen sink blind & has a lot of difficulty. Do you still end with that blind? Is there any disadvantage to ending with a blind where the dog may have really struggled or is that where the next day you come out & repeat the concept (not the same blind) & see if he learned from the struggle the day before?

Thanks-

M


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

...does one HAVE to run the most difficult blind last? Is it sometimes good to run a straightforward shorter, simpler blind last after all the difficult stuff?


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

Judy Chute said:


> ...does one HAVE to run the most difficult blind last? Is it sometimes good to run a straightforward shorter, simpler blind last after all the difficult stuff?


I may be doing things wrong, but if I had intentions of running the most difficult blind last and we screwed it up then I would do another blind that was easier. Maybe it wouldn't be the first/easiest one, but one that took out a factor or two. Or maybe run the hard one again from closer up taking out a factor that way. I hate ending anything on a bad note whether it be with my dog or my football team.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2008)

Miriam Wade said:


> I have a question for Kristie or anyone. When setting up these blinds w/ increasing difficulty-let's say the dog has done very well on the first couple of blinds-fighting factors, handling well, etc. Dog runs the last-everything but the kitchen sink blind & has a lot of difficulty. Do you still end with that blind? Is there any disadvantage to ending with a blind where the dog may have really struggled or is that where the next day you come out & repeat the concept (not the same blind) & see if he learned from the struggle the day before?
> 
> Thanks-
> 
> M


We don't normally run an "everything but the kitchen sink blind"... There ARE plenty of threepeats with multiple factors in them, but I never set them up to where they are OVERWHELMING. I would never set a up blind that has a long angle entry, over a log 50 yards out, down the shore and into a gusting wind, up and out then through a pothole of water, then into a cheaty strip of cover, angle up a hill... blah blah blah. YES, you'll see those a trial. But training, that is too much on a threepeat. You DO want to set your factors up in CONCERT... For example, if we want an angle entry into some heavy cover, we aren't going to do it with a wind that pushes them in so it LOOKS like they took the angle entry. We want them to fight BOTH the wind AND the cover IF THEY ARE READY FOR IT... OR we find somewhere to put the wind at our back and work on JUST the cover. OR find somewhere to work on crosswind blinds where we do not have to worry about angles into cover...

SOOOOOO.... We set up blinds to work on concepts the dogs are learning in a format that makes sense for WHERE THEY ARE AT. We make the angles stronger or softer, we set the wind up to be slight or heavy, we enter the water in a difficult manner or with just a little bit of challenge... Again, it goes back to reading and understanding your dog.

IF you set them up right and IF your dog is ready for what you offer when you set up blinds this way... It's very rare for them to just fall apart on the third blind UNLESS they were starting to fall apart on the previous ones. This indicates one of two things: 1) they don't understand what you're asking and/or you're asking too much or 2) they are refusing what you're asking even though they're fully capable. In the case of #1, maybe you challenged them too much and you need to set up a similar concept with a little less difficulty. In the case of #2, maybe they are just jerks...  Thankfully #2 doesn't happen very often.

If they completely blow it on the 3rd after doing the first two nicely, I would "make book" (one of my favorite quotes from Mike Lardy workshop) and go at it another day. It's just not normal or common for this to happen on threepeats...

NOW... Threepeats goes back to even when they are puppies... We do little sets of walking singles in a semi-circle, for example. Or we run three marks that each go through a little wall of cover or over a ditch. Again, this is something the dogs already understand in an abstract sense. They've seen it before in a different format. They get the repetition. And if YOU do a good job reinforcing (through attrition or pressure and just good communication) what you're looking for in the blinds, you will 99% of the time see IMPROVED PERFORMANCE on each one.

I would be confused if I saw things go down the drain at the end of a threepeat... If the dog STRUGGLED a lot on the first two and was tired... Maybe, but again that probably means it was too much to start with...

-K


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2008)

Judy Chute said:


> ...does one HAVE to run the most difficult blind last? Is it sometimes good to run a straightforward shorter, simpler blind last after all the difficult stuff?


I very rarely run a short blind after a long one. The point is that each blind challenges the dog more on something it's already understanding. the dog should NOT be overwhelmed with it. The dog should be saying "hey, I get it, this is no big deal, I saw it 2-3 times before, it makes sense now, no problem"...

There is no benefit to a shorter blind. Or a "celebration blind" or a "relaxation blind"... 

Dogs should not see blinds as "long" or "short"... They should set up and be thinking (again, my dog is talking to me, LOL) "ok, I'm going to run as hard and fast in that direction as I can until I step on a bird". There is no point to running blinds any other way. It's that simple...

So I don't feel a shorter blind would accomplish anything. If you do them right and set them up intelligently (which often takes some brainpower!!), they are not overwhelming or demanding. It's just that you're requiring a little more effort out of the dog each time.

I guess it's like conditioning a runner or even our dogs. We start out with a little and keep building. This time, you enter the water slightly more than square... Next time you take a little more angle, next time a little more angle...

It's incremental. And it does NOT mean the last blind is a MONSTER blind. It just means that it's MORE than the blind before it. So I hope I didn't make it sound like that last blind is always a killer. IT IS NOT. It just requires more effort on the dog's part than the previous blinds.

Sometimes multiple blinds are very straightforward... Slot blinds, for example. Maybe we'll take the older dogs out and run a set of slot blinds. And each one requires them to angle towards the slot at a sharper angle... But that's all there is to it. Otherwise, it's short cover and no wind or anything else.... The last blind might just enter a slot at 150 yards away versus the first blind going through a set of trees at 60 yards... 

So the last blind is NOT always a killer. It's just more difficult than the ones before... And these should never be set up to overwhelm or severelly challenge your dog. They are just to teach and maintain the textbook concepts we all want our dogs to know -- in a manner that makes sense for YOUR dog on THAT training day in THAT field or at THAT pond...

-K


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2008)

Stephen Whitley said:


> I may be doing things wrong, but if I had intentions of running the most difficult blind last and we screwed it up then I would do another blind that was easier. Maybe it wouldn't be the first/easiest one, but one that took out a factor or two. Or maybe run the hard one again from closer up taking out a factor that way. I hate ending anything on a bad note whether it be with my dog or my football team.


I don't like ending on a bad note, BUT that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it once in a while. some days are just bad days... 

If you are REPEATEDLY ending on bad notes, then there's a problem with either what you are setting up or how you are training...

-K


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I don't like ending on a bad note, BUT that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it once in a while. some days are just bad days...
> 
> If you are REPEATEDLY ending on bad notes, then there's a problem with either what you are setting up or how you are training...
> 
> -K


I agree,,,, A dog should progressively perform better with each blind when running multiple blinds. I will repeat and re-enforce a concept, but I will not make the last blind or the 2nd blind overly involved. I feel you have to make up your mind. Is the front of the blind difficult, the middle or the end? Maybe on the 3rd or 4th blind I'll make the beginning and the end of the blind difficult, with a repeating concept or theme. But, I will not make the whole blind overly involved...

Angie


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Great information. I would be interested in Kristie or the others have changed their thoughts, over the past couple of year, on the advice above.


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## Greg Forsythe (Aug 31, 2010)

my problem with blinds is i have a 3 yr old that will sit when i say back and only on water blinds marks and casting not to many problems any advise? cookie


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I don't like ending on a bad note, BUT that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it once in a while. some days are just bad days...
> 
> If you are REPEATEDLY ending on bad notes, then there's a problem with either what you are setting up or how you are training...
> 
> -K


Strive for success! Simplify if you have to. Better dog attitude! Easier on you!


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## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

This is a great thread.
Thanks all. Im learning quite a bit.
Now to keep working on the stopping and looking back at me.
My trap goes out just a short distance, then stops and looks back. I tell him back again and off he goes. 
If he strays off the line, he takes casts great. Its just that stopping, unsure thing that bugs me.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I read through this thread and there was some really good stuff here. 

I was curious that there seemed to be an objection to using blind poles to help with the momentum-building process. I use a plastic fence post covered with orange tape, but I have also seen various boards painted orange as well. I was advised that once you get out to around 100 yards, those poles would be a lot of help over the last third of the blind in building momentum and convincing him that if you say "back" something is out there to pick up. 

Also, if no blind pole, how do you remember where the blind is? I have discovered that I am not a great marker and that the memory bird would knock me out of a lot of competitions.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> I was curious that there seemed to be an objection to using blind poles to help with the momentum-building process. I use a plastic fence post covered with orange tape, but I have also seen various boards painted orange as well. I was advised that once you get out to around 100 yards, those poles would be a lot of help over the last third of the blind in building momentum and convincing him that if you say "back" something is out there to pick up.
> 
> Also, if no blind pole, how do you remember where the blind is? I have discovered that I am not a great marker and that the memory bird would knock me out of a lot of competitions.


I've learned over time, that no matter how distinctive a landmark looks to me when I am planting a blind, when I'm at the line with the dog I can't remember where it is. So I use blind stakes for me, not the dog. Some dogs are more easily able to pick them out than others, and for a more advanced dog, I learned some ways (from RTF actually) that you can disguise the stakes so they're less obvious to the dog, but still visible to you from the line. I too use the plastic fence stakes, but I decorate them with stuff I got at the crafts section of the dollar store; one has plastic ivy twined around it and some have plastic flowers/greenery taped on them. Easily visible to me, but not to the dogs. Also helps to place the stakes at an angle instead of straight up, this seems to make them blend in the surroundings more.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

What a great thread! I remember hanging on every word of it when I was working through this phase with my older dog. Now my youngest one is just about here and its a great refresher course. It is kind of sad though, that so many of the best contributors no longer post for various reasons. I miss not only their knowledge, but their patience and communications skills. No snarking or snarling or egos getting in the way.


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