# was chavez a "headcase"?



## pistol (Mar 24, 2004)

angie referred to chavez as a headcase on another board. does anyone else have this opinion? angie, i'd like to know what you saw in him that formed your opinion? he proved he had loads of talent and has produced a bunch of titled offspring. just wondering.


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

I was told that had he been on a truck(Sugarfoot's)for a more continuous time and not bounced around That he likely would have accomplished alot more. He was a national finialist at 2 so he had a great early start.

Mike


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

*Im Happy!*

Im happy with my Chavez gal! X Happy


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

I am sure happy with my girl! 13 Derby points and QAA @ 25 months

Certainly not a headcase. Very compliant!!!

FC-AFC Chavez X FC-AFC Ruffie

http://gooddoginfo.com/gdc/asp/viewpedigree.asp?DogNo=79690


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

He was an FC-AFC before 2. If that's a headcase, I want one.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Pistol,,,

Go back to the other board and find out... :? 

Angie


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

pistol said:



> angie referred to chavez as a headcase on another board. does anyone else have this opinion? angie, i'd like to know what you saw in him that formed your opinion? he proved he had loads of talent and has produced a bunch of titled offspring. just wondering.


I caught that as well. I wish I had experience with him and could be of help, but that dream hasn't came to reality.

:roll:


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

*nut case*

Have a 4 month old Chavez boy......total attitude....King of the world.
We start FF next week.

John


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Angie is right on this one folks. he was a head case. you guys that come to his defense didnt see him train or have ever been around him. if you have a pup from him and you think he is great good for you. but what are u asking your pup at this point. i have a chavez grandson that has a afc and a ton of points. Yes he can be complicated. does that make him a bad dog. no. and angie never said chavez was either.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

kip said:


> Angie is right on this one folks. he was a head case. you guys that come to his defense didnt see him train or have ever been around him. if you have a pup from him and you think he is great good for you. but what are u asking your pup at this point. i have a chavez grandson that has a afc and a ton of points.* Yes he can be complicated. does that make him a bad dog. no.* and angie never said chavez was either.


That about sums it up for me.

john


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

kip said:


> Angie is right on this one folks. he was a head case. you guys that come to his defense didnt see him train or have ever been around him. if you have a pup from him and you think he is great good for you. but what are u asking your pup at this point. i have a chavez grandson that has a afc and a ton of points. Yes he can be complicated. does that make him a bad dog. no. and angie never said chavez was either.


I think this is some really interesting stuff. 
Thanks for the post.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

*Hey Kip*

Can you post a pic of Chevy ? My little pup off him seems to favor Ford's face and expression....but Ive only seen Chevy running by me while I was shooting a flier.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: nut case*



DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Have a 4 month old Chavez boy......total attitude....King of the world.
> We start FF next week.
> 
> John





:shock: :shock: FF at 4 months?????? :shock:


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

*Re: nut case*



DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Have a 4 month old Chavez boy......total attitude....King of the world.
> We start FF next week.
> 
> John


10:30 in the morning is a little early to be hitting the sauce isn't it John?? :lol: 

Angie


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## Ron Schuna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Effects of separation*

Chavez did real good for Len Ferucci who bred and trained him and put his FC/AFC on him before he was two. He came from a fantastic litter to boot. Dave Mosher and Chavez clicked very well as Dave put a ton of points on him. If some feel he was a head case, look what happens to dogs when they head to a pro after a couple years with their "Master". Labeling this dog anything but Great is an injustice to his record in my opinion. Geez, they're athletes that do spectacular things for their handlers and maybe their psyche is a bit different than the norm from what one is used to but don't let this thread take away this dogs thunder, because he sure had a ton of it.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: Effects of separation*



Ron Schuna said:


> Chavez did real good for Len Ferucci who bred and trained him and put his FC/AFC on him before he was two. He came from a fantastic litter to boot. Dave Mosher and Chavez clicked very well as Dave put a ton of points on him. If some feel he was a head case, look what happens to dogs when they head to a pro after a couple years with their "Master". Labeling this dog anything but Great is an injustice to his record in my opinion. Geez, they're athletes that do spectacular things for their handlers and maybe their psyche is a bit different than the norm from what one is used to but don't let this thread take away this dogs thunder, because he sure had a ton of it.



WELL STATED RON!!!!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Nice try Ron.... Chavez is what he is/was and that's all that he is/was.... 

Derby,,, I see Joan didn't go back to Chavez when breeding Ruffie... Wonder why?

How did those Chavez/Star puppies turn out?????

A side note..... It's amazing how bad a dog can be,,,, it's amazing how bad a trainer can be,,,, if in the publics perception they were amazing.....

Perception is everything... :wink: 

Angie


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Right on! How can someone describe a dog they have never handled and ignore his accomplishments? I dont know this dog, dont know his trainers, but damn folks, if he has these titles he must have done sumpin right? 
In my endless quest to find out where my dog gets his traits, I discovered that his grand pa was thrown off the truck by a prominent ft winner. Another picked him upand got an NFC. Go figure.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Angie B said:


> Nice try Ron.... Chavez is what he is/was and that's all that he is/was....
> 
> Derby,,, I see Joan didn't go back to Chavez when breeding Ruffie... Wonder why?
> 
> ...


I don't know how any of the others turned out, but Penny Youngblood has a young dog from that breeding that has won at least one qual.

Who's your favorite stud, Angie?


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Angie,

Maybe she didn't go back to Chavez because she likes natural breedings and he is dead. I really do not know. We talked at a trial extensively about Ruffie and her breedings and she really likes Ranger and you can't blame her. All I know is I am really happy with my Chavez bitch. Chavez obviously had talent. I was not around him so I do not know if he was a " head case " or not and never stated that, just obviously had talent. Heck I may be a head case :twisted: I hear that I am.  

By the way, I hear you have a couple of Prime/Chopper littermate pups on your hands. If that is true, how are they doing?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Not to turn this thread around, but how many other famous dogs/bitches with scads of accolades were chucked off of one truck just to find their success with another trainer?

Angie


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

ALOT.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

fowl hunter said:


> ALOT.


Name one famous one.

Angie


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Was not Lottie washed once? I thought I heard once she was.....she is pretty famous!

Aaron 8) *


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## Van Ames (Feb 11, 2005)

I first saw Chavez when he was a derby dog in Alaska . I watched Len Ferrucci run him in the derby and qualifying two weekends in a row. He had some issues at that time, but most dogs would that were being advanced as quickly as he was. Soon after that Chavez came to Maine to train at Sugarfoot Kennels with David and Mark Mosher. I had the pleasure of seeing Chavez for many years, training and trialing. He was one of the most intelligent retrievers I have ever known. I would never have considered him to be a "head case".

Van


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Lottie was a puppy given to Andy Attar. She was in no way a wash out, She was an achiever from when she went to the derby. Mary got her back from Andy. (Can you say Cash)


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Angie B said:


> fowl hunter said:
> 
> 
> > ALOT.
> ...


Zipper


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I took it as a dog with one trainer that never did anything that went to another to become titled. Am I the only one that has heard of someone wash a dog and someone has bought it and put with there trainer and it has gone on to title.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

2tall said:


> Angie B said:
> 
> 
> > fowl hunter said:
> ...


The first one that came to my mind!!!!  

Angie


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## Ron Schuna (Jan 22, 2004)

*You say one thing and then change the context*

Angie....

Nice Try? C'mon, first you say he's this or that or was this or that and then you refer to breedings/get? 

Maybe the females might play a part in the 50/50 of pup????

Didn't he produce a CNAFC? or was it a CNFC? (Rylee) Either way, to tell me "nice try" when I'm talking about the dog, his record and the fact that like Van, I've seen him run for both Len Ferucci AND David Mosher at the same trial in Alaska after Kippy owned him and also saw him at several East coast trials and he was one fantastic dog. So, it wasn't a "nice try" it was fact not gossip about his offspring being this or being that (nice try to change the subject by the way).


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Didn't he run well in Alaska For John Cavanaugh one year ?
john


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## Pat F. (Jan 3, 2003)

I thought John C. ran Chavez at a local trial up at the brickyard some years ago.....Swamp I believe. Not absolutely positive but I think it was Chavez.

Pat


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

That could be also.
Could be wrong but........I think he got a WIN in the Am with him in Alaska

john


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

He also ran him in the '99 Nat'l Am in Idaho. I believe he went 6 series.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I think he got a WIN in the Am with him in Alaska


Off the top of my head I don't think so. Although, I'm sure Lenny did.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I think that John C did go up there with Dave M one year and that he did run Chavez while he was there .
As for the win, I think so but maybe it's 'oldtimers' kicking in :lol: 

john


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

*Re: You say one thing and then change the context*



> Nice Try? C'mon, first you say he's this or that or was this or that and then you refer to breedings/get?


Chavez's get is how this thing all started... I didn't get any good ones by the way when I was training back east..... :? 



> Maybe the females might play a part in the 50/50 of pup????


Absolutely!!!



> Didn't he produce a CNAFC? or was it a CNFC? (Rylee)


He sure did and this is the one breeding that I can appreciate. I would have loved to see Megan, Rylee's sister stay with Farmer. Who know's where she would be now? Funny you should be speaking of Rylee, her owner and good friend just called me last night discussing her breeding plans for Rylee. I love the puppy she kept outta Rylee and Patton. Drop dead gorgeous and doing well in the few derbies he's run. That John Darling sure know's what he's doing when it comes to breeding.... How many points does Rylee have? I forget?



> Either way, to tell me "nice try" when I'm talking about the dog, his record and the fact that like Van, I've seen him run for both Len Ferucci AND David Mosher at the same trial in Alaska after Kippy owned him and also saw him at several East coast trials and he was one fantastic dog. So, it wasn't a "nice try" it was fact not gossip about his offspring being this or being that (nice try to change the subject by the way).


Ron,,,,, where did I say he wasn't a great dog? :? He was just a great dog and a head case.... Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water... Just because a dog is great doesn't mean they aren't a bubble off... That's why I said "he was what he was"... Records speak volumes about a dog but they're not the whole story....

Angie


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## rmellaw (May 18, 2005)

What about the Chavez x Dippomarsh Karensa of Caronade breeding?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

So what kind of head case was he? Did he scream, break, be agressive, crossdress or what? I loved the stories I heard about Zipper, looks to me like one guys "head case" was in the opinion of another, an "independant thinker". And I really am interested, not just stirring stuff :lol:


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

2tall said:


> So what kind of head case was he? Did he scream, break, be agressive, crossdress or what? I loved the stories I heard about Zipper, looks to me like one guys "head case" was in the opinion of another, an "independant thinker". And I really am interested, not just stirring stuff :lol:


_
Independant thinker _is putting it nicely.... I'd say, _Self-employed_
 

His best breeding in my opinion was to the females that were out of the Joyners kennel...

Angie


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## rmellaw (May 18, 2005)

I just put an HR on a grand pup of his. She is a bit quirky but definitely not self employed. Definitely an amazing marker.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

*Would have loved any from Kerrensa*

The Chevas breedings to Kerensa produced some fantastic Bitches for sure....

It would I think be truely scary if Rylee....Megan....Risky had all stayed with Dan Devos (who did all of those dogs developement) for their Feild Trail Careers. Indeed...all were true Intellects. IMHO those dogs just do not take well to change in Trainer.


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## pistol (Mar 24, 2004)

sorry i started this thread and fled, but my a/c went out and i've been elsewhere. angie it is my understanding that chavez went to sugarfoot with some issue's due probably to too much pressure and being pushed through training too fast. obviously mosher turned him around rapidly as he went from problem dog to national finalist in a few weeks. believe it or not not all dogs are suited for a traditional collar program, some of you can't get that through your heads. after leaving sugarfoot i believe chavez went to mock, forry and then his owner swingle. i've heard that forry tried to start sending him on his name, though his whole life he'd been sent on "back" for marks. at his age i bet that was quite puzzling. i'm also sure that he started getting corrected differently than he had for 8 yrs. or so and i guess that might have upset him too. i also understand swingle ran him at a trial and he no-goed on a pheasant flier. so angie i ask you at what point do you understand chavez was a headcase? give the poor guy a break, he had more success than most will ever know in a fairly brief period of time and was able to breed alot without coming undone. i will agree that he was a headcase when mosher got him back because i saw him at dave's while training there. i saw what mosher had to do to get him to just feel comfortable about getting off the truck and training. so i guess i'd like to know who made him a headcase? don't forget, mosher had chavez placing in trials again before chavez retired. i'd like to finish my post by saying that if i was paying a pro to train my dog then i'd question if my money was well spent if said pro was on and off forums during working hours all of the time!!!


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## El General (Aug 20, 2004)

pistol said:


> i'd like to finish my post by saying that if i was paying a pro to train my dog then i'd question if my money was well spent if said pro was on and off forums during working hours all of the time!!!


That'll keep this thread going for a couple more pages.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

pistol said:


> i'd like to finish my post by saying that if i was paying a pro to train my dog then i'd question if my money was well spent if said pro was on and off forums during working hours all of the time!!!




Care to define working hours? I'm guessing for you working hours, end somewhere between 3pm and 6pm. Wanna know when working hours begin and end for someone with 10-20 dogs....? Better hope your dog doesn't get sick, injured or have pups after the hours you designate as a working hours or you can kiss your dogs tail goodbye....


/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Care to define working hours?


Bin kinda hot down there hasn't it?


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## El General (Aug 20, 2004)

Only from May thru September and portions of all the other months.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

rmellaw said:


> What about the Chavez x Dippomarsh Karensa of Caronade breeding?


Although the second breeding produced the Canadian National Champion, I don't think that the breeding produced that many titled dogs. 

I had a wonderful dog from the first breeding - who unfortunately could not mark well enough to be a competitive FT dog. He was not a head case and was a great companion of mine until I had to put him down.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

*Only 5*

Ted

3 of the 5 of the 2nd Kerrensa breeding where outstanding.

Rylee.....NFTCH youngest in history
Megan....FC, Canadian Derby Champ
Howie.....Open win before 2.... 7 in Rylee's National before becoming deaf 
the next winter (hidden stud gem for sure)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Megan never did much when I saw her and Penny ultimately sold her. I haven't seen much of her in the RFTN. 

Don't know anything about Howie.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Megan never did much when I saw her and Penny ultimately sold her. I haven't seen much of her in the RFTN.
> 
> Don't know anything about Howie.


I don't know??? She qualified and ran a national.......

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

And since then ????????


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> And since then ????????


Was sold to a amateur in California. She ran in Minnesota last summer and got an amateur 4th I think.

I saw her at trial down here and she looked good to me. Story has it that Penny just didn't like her and didn't want her sold to someone else on the truck, though Farmer would have loved to have kept her. She didn't want to have the same thing happen to her like when she sold Sam.... As the story goes.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Pound sand Pistol.... Once again you don't know what your talking about. Seems like you open your mouth just to change feet....

Angie


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Angie B said:


> Pound sand Pistol.... Once again you don't know what your talking about. Seems like you open your mouth just to change feet....
> 
> Angie


I got a chuckle out of that :!: HPW


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> Angie B said:
> 
> 
> > Pound sand Pistol.... Once again you don't know what your talking about. Seems like you open your mouth just to change feet....
> ...


I chuckled when I wrote it.....  

Angie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Angie B said:


> HarryWilliams said:
> 
> 
> > Angie B said:
> ...


I guess he's been pistol whipped now...

/Paul


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Angie B said:
> 
> 
> > HarryWilliams said:
> ...


Blahahahaha.... U know it!!! :wink: 

Angie


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## edfletcher (Oct 15, 2003)

Quoting Pistol: i'd like to finish my post by saying that if i was paying a pro to train my dog then i'd question if my money was well spent if said pro was on and off forums during working hours all of the time!!!

It never ceases to amaze me how brave some of these critics are when they are hiding behind some phony "handle". Agree or disagree with Angie, it is up to you, but at least have the ba11$ to use your name. You remind me of another anonymous poster from Texas who didn't have the nerve to use his real name either. I wonder if you could be the same person. He never used a capital I either. 

Ed Fletcher


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

watch for TY a black male out of Chavez and Ruffie - he is currently in training with Andy Attar and he could be a great one

big powerful and placing in the big time opens - see him on a weekly basis in training and he is going to be a big time player
yes he was high and vocal at first but is in a groove now - I would like to own him as would most of the people in the dog world

trog


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

trog said:


> watch for TY a black male out of Chavez and Ruffie - he is currently in training with Andy Attar and he could be a great one
> 
> big powerful and placing in the big time opens - see him on a weekly basis in training and he is going to be a big time player
> yes he was high and vocal at first but is in a groove now - I would like to own him as would most of the people in the dog world
> ...


Jason Fleming has a nice male from the Chavez/Ruffie litter that will be running AA this fall. That is three from the litter that I know of that are/will be running AA this fall. :wink:


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## Lisa S. (May 23, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> And since then ????????


Meg whelped a litter 4/26/07, sired by Ford. Know someone who was purchasing a male. 8)


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## pistol (Mar 24, 2004)

angie, i get my info from a very good source. how can you say i don't know what i'm talking about when you don't know where my info is coming from? since you know it all , tell us who did the number on chavez when he left sugarfoot? exactly how many fc's have you trained? oh i forgot, another pro trained yours and he's already finished if i remember another post you made recently. i'd find it hard to believe that chavez could have racked up that many points if he wasn't a team player. angie maybe you don't care but your know it all personality really turns alot of people on this forum off as i've witnessed through many pm's today.hey if anyone out there is a client of angie's call her up and find out why she wasn't training this afternoon. she went north to get out of the heat and is probably charging you a summer trip fee along with her normal monthly fee. she sure spends alot of good training time in front of the computer!!! ed fletcher, if that's your real name, i've only posted under the name pistol. i can't take credit for something that other person said.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

DING DING DING THIS MAY BE HEADED TO THE JERRY SPRINGER SHOW. :twisted: 

LETS ALL BE NICE AND HAVE FUN :wink:


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## pistol (Mar 24, 2004)

i hear "the view" is looking for some new "talent".


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

You know so many replies to strings on this forum seem to be from people that haven't "been around", haven't experienced the ups and downs of field trials, haven't been involved with the top flight dogs and trainers. But yet these people seem to be able to cut down anyone that offers a professional, experienced opinion. 

Do the people posting negative comments have as much experience training as Angie, who I don't know, do you really know about the problems top level dogs face and maybe exhibit? Do you understand the language when someone says "head case"? This might not be a derogaroty (sp) term in some camps. We have a couple of wild and out of control "head cases" that are really starting to come into there own in camp. 

Please don't open your mouth until you have trained at a very high level, with high level trainers, with talented high level dogs. I get fed up with these kinds of comments on this board. Who am I - 37 years of training with the top pros in Wisconsin, a couple of field champions, past president of a club with close to one million dollars worth of land, past field trial secretary, limited judging experience to stroke issues, someone who trains with a couple of nationally know trainers a couple of days a week 
Get the bus out but I am willing to debate anyone on any issue dealing with top flight field trial dogs.
trog


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## pistol (Mar 24, 2004)

i have trained with high level trainers and have placed in both major stakes. may i continue to open my mouth trog? do you care to offer any rumors you've heard on the thread's topic? i have been answering pm's for over an hour from people who agree with me, although for all i know they might be low level trainers with junior hunter titles. you see, some of them pm me with fake names!!!! trog, if only people with high level dogs who have trained with the best pro's in wisconsin were allowed to post on this forum it would be a very quiet place. maybe you could start the "high level" forum!!!


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Marty B. said:


> DING DING DING THIS MAY BE HEADED TO THE JERRY SPRINGER SHOW. :twisted:



Actually, we had the RTF Jerry Springer thread some time ago. Ken Bora was supposed to be in charge of selecting the big-bosomed floozies, but he never reported the results of his interviews. 

How can we be on the Jerry Springer Show without big-bosomed floozies?


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

trog said:


> You know so many replies to strings on this forum seem to be from people that haven't "been around", haven't experienced the ups and downs of field trials, haven't been involved with the top flight dogs and trainers. But yet these people seem to be able to cut down anyone that offers a professional, experienced opinion.
> 
> Do the people posting negative comments have as much experience training as Angie, who I don't know, do you really know about the problems top level dogs face and maybe exhibit? Do you understand the language when someone says "head case"? This might not be a derogaroty (sp) term in some camps. We have a couple of wild and out of control "head cases" that are really starting to come into there own in camp.
> 
> ...


Now thats a blue ribbon in Arrogance! :shock:


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## rmellaw (May 18, 2005)

*Re: Only 5*



Lpgar said:


> Ted
> 
> 3 of the 5 of the 2nd Kerrensa breeding where outstanding.
> 
> ...


I believe Hammer was out of this litter as well and has an FTCH. he may have been out of the first?


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

I'm pretty sure Hammer was out of the first litter.


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## pistol (Mar 24, 2004)

gun dog 2002, i forgot to address you question on working hours. as far as mine, i leave the house at 6:45 a.m. and get home a little after 5:00 p.m. there was at time in my life when i worked 6 and a 1/2 days a week. the pro's i know of typically air dogs around 5:30 or 6:00, come in for coffee, breakfast and wait for birdboys and/or clients to show up, usually 7:30 or 8:00. by the time they decide where they want to train, get everyone loaded and get to the grounds it might be 8:30 or 9:00. they usually break in the field for lunch and quit around 5:00. arrive back at the kennel to feed and air and put the dogs up for the night. some do this 5 days a week and some 6. i find it funny when some imply that their pro works from before daylight til after dark 7 days a week. that isn't realistic.
i imagine they have enough kennel help to get an ocaisional day off.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Pistol

I can tell you that the schedule of my pro, Cherylon Loveland does not resemble your hypothetical schedule

Here is her schedule

6 am - air dogs
7 am - basics on young dogs
8 am - drills
10 am - 6 pm - In field, no lunch break
6 pm - air/feed dogs

No kennel help
Couple of bird boys
Lunch on the run
Six days a week

She earns every dollar she charges ... and more

If you doubt my version of events, you can ask Ed Aycock for his observations

Ted


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## pistol (Mar 24, 2004)

ted, you are one of the few whose version of events i wouldn't question.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Now thats a blue ribbon in Arrogance!


No, Terry is a straight-forward, honest, genuine person just telling it like it is.


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## greyghost (Jun 11, 2004)

trog...I couldn't agree more. Appreciate that you are sharing some of your knowledge with us...Thank You.....pete


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

pistol said:


> angie, i get my info from a very good source. how can you say i don't know what i'm talking about when you don't know where my info is coming from? since you know it all , tell us who did the number on chavez when he left sugarfoot? exactly how many fc's have you trained? oh i forgot, another pro trained yours and he's already finished if i remember another post you made recently. i'd find it hard to believe that chavez could have racked up that many points if he wasn't a team player. angie maybe you don't care but your know it all personality really turns alot of people on this forum off as i've witnessed through many pm's today.hey if anyone out there is a client of angie's call her up and find out why she wasn't training this afternoon. she went north to get out of the heat and is probably charging you a summer trip fee along with her normal monthly fee. she sure spends alot of good training time in front of the computer!!! ed fletcher, if that's your real name, i've only posted under the name pistol. i can't take credit for something that other person said.


 come on get real. its a dog for petes sake. you are dealing with ones lively hood. in the past this would have been blocked. get real man its just a dog.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

My pro's schedule is pretty close to the outline that Ted presented from Cherylon's typical day. In what Pistol outlined, I don't see any time for yard work. Ultimately, I don't care what kind of schedule he keeps. I only care that the work gets done and is done to a high standard, it will show in the dog's work. It's up to a client to judge a pro's work for him/herself, and I don't see anyone can judge that over the internet.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

*Headcase*

Pistol wrote:



> if only people with high level dogs who have trained with the best pro's in wisconsin were allowed to post on this forum it would be a very quiet place. maybe you could start the "high level" forum!!!


Do you think Wisconsin is the only state that has professional trainers?  Perhaps Chavez is not the only "headcase". 

Of course as Ed Fletcher referred to earlier, it's easy to be inflamatory when you hide behind a fake name!


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Angie B said:


> fowl hunter said:
> 
> 
> > ALOT.
> ...


FC AFC Candlewood's MD Houston was a washout off Lardy's truck.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i think calling an accomplished dog with the history this one had "a headcase" is unwarranted. apparently Mosher could communicate with this animal. the other trainers either couldn't or wouldn't. it's too bad he was shopped around so much, but the owner must have felt it was necessary. :? 

every one of us needs to remember that corrections the dog doesn't understand is a kind of abuse, if they are repeated. we need to either present the training in an understandable way to the dog, or go back and patch the hole that's contributing to the dog's confusion/inability to perform the task.

too much of this type of training and you'll have your own "headcase" to deal with........-paul


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Angie B said:


> like when she sold Sam....


eh???........Sam?????...who the heck is Sam :? :? 

she did sell a dog to Bill Bowen named Rocket who was eventually a National Champion..........NFC Eagle Ridge Rocket Sam :wink:


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

*nut jobs*

Headcase ? Why can't a dog be talented, accomplished and a "headcase"

Look at other Pro athletes....Mike Vick for example, talent, accomplised, and an outright, sicko, "headcase"

If you spend any amount of time around an All Age Pro, you will come to learn that a good number of the dogs being campaigned today could be condsidered a headcase. Just depends on your definition. Some don't like strangers, some don't like other dogs, puppies, water, some are finicky eaters, some are unmanagable at a trial (without large doses of electricity beforehand) some get motion sickness and need drugs to travel, some have neurotic behaviors on the truck like barking, spinning, chewing/licking their feet, pen fighting out of boredom. The list literally goes on & on.

As far as the pot shots on people...let's be nice, UNLESS you have facts and are willing put your name out their like a MAN and stand behind your words.

John


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

I think this thread has gotten into really unfortunate territory.


Kevin aka Cat Squirrel


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: nut jobs*



DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Headcase ? Why can't a dog be talented, accomplished and a "headcase"
> 
> Look at other Pro athletes....Mike Vick for example, talent, accomplised, and an outright, sicko, "headcase"
> 
> ...


Good point John :!: Kind of reminds me of the human race :roll:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

*Re: nut jobs*



Marty B. said:


> DRAKEHAVEN said:
> 
> 
> > Headcase ? Why can't a dog be talented, accomplished and a "headcase"
> ...


Ya, look how many people on here are complete headcases and talented....oh wait. never mind...

/Paul


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## labinitup (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: nut jobs*



DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Headcase
> If you spend any amount of time around an All Age husband , you will come to learn that a good number of the wives being campaigned today could be condsidered a headcase. Just depends on your definition. Some don't like strangers, some don't like other women, wives, water, some are finicky eaters, some are unmanagable at a trial (without large doses of electricity beforehand) some get motion sickness and need drugs to travel, some have neurotic behaviors on the truck like barking, spinning, chewing/licking their feet, pen fighting out of boredom. The list literally goes on & on.


This describe's my last ex-wife very well 
with a few substitutions

William W


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

*now women bashing*

This thread has officially gone south :twisted:


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> i think calling an accomplished dog with the history this one had "a headcase" is unwarranted. apparently Mosher could communicate with this animal. the other trainers either couldn't or wouldn't. it's too bad he was shopped around so much, but the owner must have felt it was necessary. :?


Another way to look at this is one, accomplishments aren't everything. Many great sires/bitch's have none. Now yes Mosher figured the dog out and Chavez ran sucessfully for him, but there couldn't have been something wrong with all those other trainers??? The trainers were the best to be had. Kinda like the guy whose been married 6 times. Was there really something wrong with all those women???? 



> every one of us needs to remember that corrections the dog doesn't understand is a kind of abuse, if they are repeated. we need to either present the training in an understandable way to the dog, or go back and patch the hole that's contributing to the dog's confusion/inability to perform the task.
> 
> too much of this type of training and you'll have your own "headcase" to deal with........


Sooo I guess I don't know where your going with this. Are you saying that Chavez's training was slighted in this way by other trainers????

Angie


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

Angie B said:


> Was there really something wrong with all those women????
> Angie


Long story short, yes!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm just seeing this for the first time.

For those who feel that RTF has somehow taken a turn recently, how about giving me the benefit of the doubt and notifying me when something turns badly? I was not notified by anyone about the way this discussion has turned ugly. 

To assume that Vicky or I, or past moderators are here reading and scanning every post on every thread is in error. 

This thread is locked. Pistol, please check your email...(not your PM)

In the past, I've asked individuals politely to back off on personal attacks before deactivating their accounts. That approach got me burned not too long ago. pistol, until we can reach some common ground about proper use of the resource, your account is deactivated. There are probably other places out there where defamation of a retriever pro is part of the culture. It won't work here.

Thread locked. 

Chris


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