# To prod or not to prod?



## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Hello all,

I am considering the purchase of a cattle prod to use in my dog training program. I am not going to use this instrument in an irresponsible manner. I would like comments from those who have used cattle prods and I would very much appreciate comments regarding name brands, model numbers, etc. What I am really looking for is a model with adjustable intensity, if such an animal exists. I guess if I can't find a prod with low intensity I will more than likely find an alternative approach.

Thanks for your help,
LSpann


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Boy do I want to stay out of this one...
Might want to do a search on this subject,-about a month ago, it prompted several pages of discussion on this board.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Find an alternative approach......there are enough methods out there that do not require the use of a cattle prod....not judging, but in MHO, using a cattle prod in any manner would be irresponsible....


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I didn't think anyone used those things anymore?? Kinda like a ear or lip clip. If I gotta use that kinda stuff, _Junior_ is heading back home.....

Anywho,,, I don't think they come with variable intensities. Were you looking to get a black mamba or a 2-3 foot prod?

Angie


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Got a few used ones for sale.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Considering you already told us back in May that you use a cattle prod, just exactly what is the point of this thread?


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25572&highlight=lspann&page=15


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> Considering you already told us back in May that you use a cattle prod, just exactly what is the point of this thread?
> 
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25572&highlight=lspann&page=15



What I have been using is NOT a cattle prod. I have been using a small black box-looking thing that resembles a stun gun (kind of like a cattle prod without the long handle). It has a low intensity and works pretty good. What I am looking for is a CATTLE PROD with a long handle and low intensity. 

The point of this thread is for any information on a cattle prod, one with a long handle and low intensity, thank you counselor.


LSpann


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Bwahhhhha what a memory!


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## GONEHUNTIN' (Sep 21, 2006)

I come from the age of prods and am thankful as heck no one uses them today. I am curious though; WHAT do you want to use the prod for? 

Let me caution you about this. Prod's created many a mean dog. I just really can't see the sense of wanting to use one today. The one thing I DO think they're great for, is for barking dog's.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Considering you already told us back in May that you use a cattle prod, just exactly what is the point of this thread?
> 
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25572&highlight=lspann&page=15


I thought this sounded familiar

From two recent cattle prod threads

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?p=286844&highlight=prod#post286844



LSpann said:


> I cure this problem with a cattle prod ;-)


and
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?p=282013&highlight=prod#post282013


LSpann said:


> I have a cattle prod and I use it. No different than an e-collar.


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

GONEHUNTIN' said:


> I come from the age of prods and am thankful as heck no one uses them today. I am curious though; WHAT do you want to use the prod for?
> 
> Let me caution you about this. Prod's created many a mean dog. I just really can't see the sense of wanting to use one today. The one thing I DO think they're great for, is for barking dog's.


I want to cure a creeping problem.

The "prod" I've been using is a small hand-held unit that resembles a stun gun. http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp...-1&storeId=10551&ddkey=http:CategoryDisplayMy dog sees be reaching down to touch him with it and he immediately heel back to where he is supposed to be. If I had a real bonifide cattle prod I could reach around and touch him with it with very little movement and hopefully correct this problem.

*So I have been using a livestock prod* just not the long handle variety. I believe that most are too high of an intensity to use on dogs, therefore I am looking for one with variable intensity.

LSpann


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2008)

what's wrong with a heeling stick? Or collar correction? Those two, when properly and consistently used and timed, work well with 99% of dogs -- except the crazy ones we've been discussing on another thread...


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

I'll have my pop corn w/ XTRA butter!!!!

in all seriousness is the dog barking? buy a dog collar

is he breaking/ put him on a 5ft lead staked w/ pinch collar out BOTH at the line and by the truck just to make watch or if at the line and he don't break release him for the mark

is he pi$$'n on everything? put collar on him while he's air'n and when starts tell him NO and nick him

cattle prods are OLD SCHOOL


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> what's wrong with a heeling stick? Or collar correction? Those two, when properly and consistently used and timed, work well with 99% of dogs -- except the crazy ones we've been discussing on another thread...


I have used a heeling stick since day one and I also use an e-collar. My dog is collar-wise and I am afraid I may have one of the "crazy ones".

I know that to some people a cattle prod sounds cruel. Is a shock to the hind quarter with a cattle prod more cruel and severe than a shock to the neck with an e-collar? Or perhaps a bruise from a heeling stick?

LSpann


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2008)

LSpann said:


> I have used a heeling stick since day one and I also use an e-collar. My dog is collar-wise and I am afraid I may have one of the "crazy ones".
> 
> LSpann


Then the odds of a prod working are slim. If your dog is collar wise, I would guess it may also be test/trial wise and adding pressure usually won't solve that problem...

For collar wise dogs, you back up, have the collar on almost non-stop and don't go back to tests or trials for several months if not longer.

There are also lots of standards for you as a handler -- such as not moving foward when your dog creeps, picking up any marks and letting the dog watch them be picked up before rethrowing them... I think a better post might be some fixes for creeping. Seriously... The prod isn't a good idea for this -- NOT because it's a prod, but because there are better, smarter and more intuitive ways (from the dog's perspective) to fix it. 

-K


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Then the odds of a prod working are slim. If your dog is collar wise, I would guess it may also be test/trial wise and adding pressure usually won't solve that problem...
> 
> For collar wise dogs, you back up, have the collar on almost non-stop and don't go back to tests or trials for several months if not longer.
> 
> ...


Ditto. Well said....


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

LSpann said:


> What I have been using is NOT a cattle prod. I have been using a small black box-looking thing that resembles a stun gun (kind of like a cattle prod without the long handle). It has a low intensity and works pretty good. What I am looking for is a CATTLE PROD with a long handle and low intensity.
> 
> The point of this thread is for any information on a cattle prod, one with a long handle and low intensity, thank you counselor.
> 
> ...


Your welcome. So what you are using is a hand held prod, and you want the "wand" version to control a creeping problem? This makes about as much sense as the "pro" that prodded my bitch on the inside of her thigh to stop creeping. That was the end of that "pro."

Prod poles have typically been used to make dogs "GO" or to prevent barking. There are techniques now to avoid the use of the archaic cattle prod. Like, how about some rat shot in the a$%%%? ;-) Please. Surely your a man of the times, and are willing to advance your training methods?


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Kristie,

Thanks for the advice. I will try using some of the methods you have described. Maybe I won't need the cattle prod.

LSpann


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2008)

LSpann said:


> Kristie,
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I will try using some of the methods you have described. Maybe I won't need the cattle prod.
> 
> LSpann


Dogs usually, NOT always, creep because they've been allowed to creep. Somewhere early in your dog's progress, there was probably a time where the front feet pitter-pattered and then another time where they went forward a little... And so on... And now you have a creeping problem. 

To stop creeping, you must first prevent it (duh). And to do that, you have to: 1) be quick and 2) choose a correction that fits your dog.

If your dog is way out of control creeping, it's not something you take down to zero tolerance immediately. You would break it down into steps as far as what you allow for your standard for steadiness. You cannot expect a dog that creeps three feet to creep zero with one or two lessons... So first you look for IMPROVEMENT and you correct to reach THAT standard - NOT perfection.

So here are some rules:
1) Your dog should never be allowed a retrieve where it does not meet your standards for steadiness (these will tighten up over the course of a few weeks or months while you train him to the new standards)
2) NO MULTIPLES. Singles only until you fix the problem.
3) If your dog does not meet your standards for steadiness, you correct and reset the dog. Have them WATCH the mark being picked back up. Then rethrow. Repeat as much as needed to get the dog to comply with your CURRENT standards for steadiness. IF he is having a lot of trouble, you can do things like remove the gunshot, move marks farther away. 
4) You can HELP your dog have some success by doing very boring marks (far away, no gunshot, no duck call, no splash) -- this allows you to get in some PRAISE so your dog understands what's expected.

continued...

5) Make sure you have TWO commands -- one to move foward (we use HERE), one to move backward (we use HEEL). Make sure your dog UNDERSTANDS that they are DIFFERENT. Many people use HEEL to mean "stay with me" but it is MUCH MUCH MORE helpful to have TWO commands. And VERY helpful when you're dealing with a creeping dog. For people who use heel only, it doesn't help the dog move with you. For dogs that creep, we swat them across the chest with the heeling stick while saying "heel" (or a collar nick, or maybe burn, depending on the dog).

6) For each subsequent time your dog creeps and has not IMPROVED in effort to NOT creep, the pressure should increase. So if you throw a mark, the dog fails your standards, you have it picked up and he creeps again... He should receive a stronger correcton. 

7) Back up A LOT. Work on surprising your dog. He should be sharp in his reponse to you. He should stay stuck to you like glue. Correct for any lagging or half-effort responses.

8) When at heel, watching marks, the dog's shoulders should be even with yours. Dogs that are head ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU!! Dogs should not watch marks with their butts at your feet. You and your dog should be able to make eye contact without you having to bend over and forward and get on all fours... LOL You should be able to look down and see your dog's eyes easily. Dogs that creep tend to be dogs that are ahead at all times.

9) Control at all times. Creeping (and almost all other control issues) are usually a symptom of a bigger problem. Make sure you are requiring your dog to sit and wait to get out of his box/truck, that the collar is on before he gets out, that you heel nicely to the line, that you require good manners both in and out of training.

Hope these help. I half find it hard to take you seriously given your previous posts, but for some reason I felt compelled to post this...

-K


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## Pepper Dawg (Sep 26, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Dogs usually, NOT always, creep because they've been allowed to creep. Somewhere early in your dog's progress, there was probably a time where the front feet pitter-pattered and then another time where they went forward a little... And so on... And now you have a creeping problem.
> 
> To stop creeping, you must first prevent it (duh). And to do that, you have to: 1) be quick and 2) choose a correction that fits your dog.
> 
> ...


Great post Kristie! I am one of those handlers who let his dog get to creeping and it has been very difficult to reverse this now. I will add this post to my collection as it is one of the most complete step by step references I have read! Thanks for posting this! It will definitely help me and my dog.


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## GONEHUNTIN' (Sep 21, 2006)

Most creepers I have trained have been man made. The dog creeps, the handler creeps, and sends the dog. Don't do it.

If the dog creeps ahead, don't say a word. Walk backward and lay on the collar, commanding NO, HEEL!!!. Use the highest intensity. Pick up the birds and put the dog away, run a dog and do it again. 

My guess is, your dog is not proficient in heeling drills and lacks "handler awareness". With a dog like that, even if it's a single, I'll shoot a flyer and do a heeling drill, being unmerciful with the dog if he doesn't follow my slightest body movement. Work him thoroughly on heeling drills, and never shoot a bird without moving back after it's shot. Now, a word of caution, here, you can create a reverse-creeper, but that's an easy one to cure and you'll be a step ahead of the game.

There's one other thing we used to sometimes do with a dog that was confirmed at it. I'd take a battery powered fencer and run a wire in the grass a few inches ahead of a stick I had laid down for the line. If the dog moved a couple inches or leaned forward, he got the hot wire. The birds were then picked up and another set up made. If he stayed without movement, he was told "good dog", praised and put in the truck. They don't need a bird every time they come to line. Eliminate some of the anticipation.

The other thing about a fencer is that the dog can be run with no ecollar on and a correction made that doesn't come from the collar or the handler. It's a great tune up for a trial. It's also great for a soft client that doesn't want to administer correction personally. 
It is very effective and you seldom see it used. I would always paint the wire black or green so the dog couldn't see it and hide it in short grass.

It's a bit of work to set up, but it can get you through a lot of trials.


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## Brian Moyse (Mar 25, 2003)

Use it on yourself first and then decide if you want to use it on the dog. 

If the point is to keep the dog from moving on the line a prod surely will not work when the dog is jumping out of his skin.

You still see quite a few orange ends of prods tucked away inside of trucks at events.....


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## TY 4 (Dec 22, 2006)

Forget the cattle prod, usa a tazer. LOL


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Dogs usually, NOT always, creep because they've been allowed to creep. Somewhere early in your dog's progress, there was probably a time where the front feet pitter-pattered and then another time where they went forward a little... And so on... And now you have a creeping problem.
> 
> To stop creeping, you must first prevent it (duh). And to do that, you have to: 1) be quick and 2) choose a correction that fits your dog.
> 
> ...


GREAT POST Kristie! You should be paid for this advice! At the same time, I'm jealous that such good, concise info is _now_ available. (Just where exactly were you about 3 years ago, when my YLF was well on her way to qualifying for the US Olympic Creeping Team!!!).

I found your #7 to be our #1 solution. Of course I first had to teach her to back up (about 3 days worth of work), and from them on, she RARELY was sent for a mark, even if she had been steady, without first backing up at least a few scoots.

There are some on this forum that had witnessed her butt-scooting, long-range creepyness first-hand, and they can testify that this was something I was sure I'd have to live with forever. It can be fixed, but it ain't easy, and I sure as hell can't see how a cattle prod would help. 

(I can't help but envision a surgeon in training with his instructor behind him with a friggin' cattle prod, in case his hand is less than steady!! :lol

Mark


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Last time I saw a cattle prod was during pledgeship for my fraternity.


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## cgoeson (Jan 22, 2008)

Seriously?!? Are we going to have this conversation again?


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## BOB_HARWELL (Jun 7, 2008)

There is a trainer in Georgia that is in some serious trouble for using a cattle prod.
Not Kristie,,,, he's a boy.

BOB


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

It was suggested that we use a cattle prod technique to stop my dog from breaking. He was terriable at the time and all the conventional things were not working, even Attar worked on him during a seminar with several different methods that did not slow him down. The guy that suggested the cattle prod idea then suggested we do the same thing first with the e colar and see what happens. One session and he was curred to where just conventional techniques worked as refresher the next year when he started to creep a bit. 

This is basicly a 3 man operation. tie long lead to his collar and run it through a pully on a stake that is in the ground 10-15 ft in front. have someone stand behind you and too the side to pull the dog away from the handler (you). have someone else 10-15 ft in front with live bird, best is a duck or something like that clipped or shackled, and a starter pistol. 
scenerio: the bird guy does everything he can to make the dog creep, break. shoots multiple blanks, throws the bird up, danges it in front of the dog, etc. the rope guy pulls the dog off line and applies pressure, keeping dog from returning to heel position. the handler, with e collar transmitter (turned up all the way, highest level) gives heel command several times, and as soon as dog is out of postion, applies constsant pressure with e-collar. keep this up for several seconds(5-10), it does not take along, the dog is pulled off line, stimulated, and is fighting to get back. only way he gets back is by releasing the rope. he gets pressure the whole time he is being pulled off line. handler is ordering dog to heel. resulting in the dog having to fight hard to get back to heel without success at first. this seems to put a good memory lock on the lession and it will work well. will not have to repeat this if you use normal techniques to remind him in the future. you can use the cattle prod on the same technique as the e-collare but i have not seen it done as it was not necessary for my block head. bud


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

I don't know if they still make them since I haven't used one in AGES, but I remember having a prod that had a spiral coil wrapped around the top. That way you didn't have to actually 'poke' with the prod, you could just brush it against the dog and could get 'lite' contact. Again, I haven't used one in years and we used it only a few times for force to pile. Can't say I think it's the best used on a creeper, but you know your dog better than any of the posters do.

Good Luck

Kris


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

"_If you always tell the truth, you don't need a good memory._" - Jesse Ventura


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

LSpann said:


> What I have been using is NOT a cattle prod. I have been using a small black box-looking thing that resembles a stun gun (kind of like a cattle prod without the long handle). It has a low intensity and works pretty good. What I am looking for is a CATTLE PROD with a long handle and low intensity.
> 
> The point of this thread is for any information on a cattle prod, one with a long handle and low intensity, thank you counselor.
> 
> ...


You should probably use a longer handled one, that will help eliminate some of the teeth marks on your hand when your dog finally figures out where the zap is coming from. What kind of a dog do you have anyway? And what are you training it to do?


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## Jake Sullivan (Jan 28, 2008)

The only time I've ever seen one used is to teach a dog to shut up in a kennel!!Throw for a pro and when he has dogs that never shut up......out comes the hot shot!


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Another person who shouldn't be aloud within 150 yards of a dog.


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Barry said:


> You should probably use a longer handled one, that will help eliminate some of the teeth marks on your hand when your dog finally figures out where the zap is coming from. What kind of a dog do you have anyway? And what are you training it to do?



Yes I am trying to avoid teeth marks on my hand.

I have a BLM who is now 19 months old. He received his HRCH at 16 months and I am now focusing on his Master title. 

LSpann


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Hoosier said:


> Another person who shouldn't be aloud within 150 yards of a dog.


I sometimes get quite *"aloud"* while training my dogs. 

LSpann


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Brian Moyse said:


> Use it on yourself first and then decide if you want to use it on the dog.
> 
> If the point is to keep the dog from moving on the line a prod surely will not work when the dog is jumping out of his skin.
> 
> You still see quite a few orange ends of prods tucked away inside of trucks at events.....


Brian,

I have actually used my Hot Shot and my e-collar on myself before I used either one on my dogs.

LSpann


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

I certainly appreciate all of the helpful information as well as all of the sarcastic remarks from everyone. Just because I haven't responded to someone's particular post doesn't mean that I didn't read it and didn't appreciate it. 

I am not a pro trainer, not by any stretch of the imagination. I do have quite a collection of training materials from pros such as Lardy, Rorem, and I have watched the videos numerous times, read the books over and over, and I still have questions. Fortunately, I can come on the RTF and get a wide array of recommendations from which to choose and apply to my dog training regimen.

On this thread alone I have gotten several new ideas, such as the use of ratshot, I know to some it may sound a little over the top, but that sh!t is right down my alley! 

Keep 'em coming,
LSpann


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Snicklefritz said:


> "_If you always tell the truth, you don't need a good memory._" - Jesse Ventura





LSpann said:


> I want to cure a creeping problem.
> 
> The "prod" I've been using is a small hand-held unit that resembles a stun gun. http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp...-1&storeId=10551&ddkey=http:CategoryDisplayMy dog sees be reaching down to touch him with it and he immediately heel back to where he is supposed to be. If I had a real bonifide cattle prod I could reach around and touch him with it with very little movement and hopefully correct this problem.
> 
> ...


I don't consider the "Hot Shot" a real bonafide cattle prod. I asked for a cattle prod and the Hot Shot is what the salesman sold me. I thought that I had a cattle prod and thought that it would suit my needs. THEN one day a "pro" took me to his truck and said "This is a cattle prod". Kind of like the scene in Crocodile Dundee where the guy pulls a knife on Dundee and Dundee says "you call that a knife? This is a knife" and Dundee pulls out his big knife.

I know you remember that scene! Anyone who can quote "wrastlers" had to have watched Crocodile Dundee!


Thanks for the amusement,
LSpann


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Please excuse the spelling guess teachers couldn't use a prod when I was in school. I'm sure I would have done better if they would have. So if you'll excuse me I'm off too slap a kid ,trip an old lady, abuse the wife, and kick a puppy. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll see a disabled person I can push out of their wheelchair . It's all abuse of the defenseless right?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Mark Jones said:


> Do any of the pros in your training material collection use a cattle prod?


I have yet to see a prod on a pros video or training material. I have yet to see dogs pick up ducks on the SRS or the ESPN Great Outdoor Games. I have no doubt the dogs pick up ducks and judging from the "orange handles" sticking out of trucks I have no doubt many pros use prods. It is simply a sensitivity issue. Some people don't want to know. If you are in this category don't open these threads.

Mark L.


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Mark Jones said:


> Do any of the pros in your training material collection use a cattle prod?


None of the materials I have show any of the pros using a cattle prod. Do any of them use a cattle prod? I don't know. The videos don't show the pros feeding their dogs but I am sure that they do so. They may even brush their dogs but the videos fail to show that also. If you were a pro and you were making a dog training video, would you want a section on using a cattle prod?



LSpann


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

Hoosier said:


> Please excuse the spelling guess teachers couldn't use a prod when I was in school. I'm sure I would have done better if they would have. So if you'll excuse me I'm off too slap a kid ,trip an old lady, abuse the wife, and kick a puppy. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll see a disabled person I can push out of their wheelchair . It's all abuse of the defenseless right?


Hoosier,

I was only joking with you. Not sure what you are inferring with the "It's all abuse of the defenseless right?" statement. If you have a learning disability then I sincerely apologize for my statement. If that isn't the case then you need to make sure that you know how to swim before diving into the deep end of the pool.

LSpann


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Yes I do have a learning disability .That's why I'm comfortably retired at 39.I'm done with this.Be at the lakehome for about the next 5 or 6 days.


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Yes I do have a learning disability .That's why I'm comfortably retired at 39.I'm done with this.Be at the lake home for about the next 5 or 6 days.


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## Dick Sheldon (Jul 14, 2006)

Use the e-collar placed around the back end (waist) for steadying and you can even vary the intensity.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

What's wrong with spending the money on a good pro who can solve the problem without abusing your animal???

Or going to a training seminar with someone reputable and find out tried and successful methods for solving your training problems...


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

SueLab said:


> What's wrong with spending the money on a good pro who can solve the problem without abusing your animal???


I prefer to ALL of my own training. Always have and always will, guess I'm just a DIY kind of guy. I am not planning on using the cattle prod to "abuse my animal."



SueLab said:


> Or going to a training seminar with someone reputable and find out tried and successful methods for solving your training problems...


Not too many training seminars in my part of the country, that is why I come to the RTF and solicit helpful information from those, like yourself, who can share their knowledge with me.

Thanks,

LSpann


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

"I am not a pro trainer, not by any stretch of the imagination." And you may not be much of an amat trainer. You have a thing for this prod. Well, buy one try it out, in fact let one of your training buddies hit you few times - You may like it. ! Wow 18 months why would you need a cattle prod if your dog at such a young age is running master or is going to run master. Unless you mean run master five years from now.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25572&highlight=cattle+prod



I personally think using a cattle prod on a dog in today’s world of E collars is absolutely unnecessary. If you feel compelled be a macho he-man I would buy a Hotshot brand and just fry the ever loving crap out of your dog(s)…if your gonna ruin them just get it over with…will be easier on you and the dogs.


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## ducksoup (Oct 3, 2005)

LSpann said:


> None of the materials I have show any of the pros using a cattle prod. Do any of them use a cattle prod? I don't know. The videos don't show the pros feeding their dogs but I am sure that they do so. They may even brush their dogs but the videos fail to show that also. If you were a pro and you were making a dog training video, would you want a section on using a cattle prod?LSpann


And why would you keep on about cattle prods on the RTF for???? Personally I think this thread has been "prodded" to death ????? Let's move on already -- give yourself a "jolt" back to reality -- seriously who cares about why or how you want to use a cattle prod on such a young dog -- other than because you "electrocuted" this thread !!!!! JMHO


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Seminars are in every state...just fork out the bucks and travel to a good one near you.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

LSpann said:


> I prefer to ALL of my own training. Always have and always will, guess I'm just a DIY kind of guy. I am not planning on using the cattle prod to "abuse my animal."


Having had an FC/AFC that was "trained" using this and couple of other like devices early in his life (which shortened his FT career by a couple of years and cost him some placements, I'm _firmly_ convinced), I can assure you that there is NOTHING positive that can come from the use of a prod. Period.




> Not too many training seminars in my part of the country, that is why I come to the RTF and solicit helpful information from those, like yourself, who can share their knowledge with me.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> LSpann


"Technique" is _everything_, Lonnie. Learning how to use a prod on RTF would be a bit like learning how to shoot using only videos and "internet advice."

Nancy said it right: make an investment in you and your dog's future, man....pony up, clear your court schedule, and TRAVEL to any number of seminars done by folks who can HELP you HELP your dog. It'll be some of the BEST time you could spend....and yes, they'll all feed their dogs and no, I'll bet you don't see ONE cattle prod at any of 'em.

kg


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Me thinks the good barrister simply enjoys stirring the pot after a long day verbal jousting with clients and other lawyers....


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

LSpann said:


> I prefer to ALL of my own training. Always have and always will, guess I'm just a DIY kind of guy.
> 
> LSpann


I too prefer to train my own dogs and I will admit to having owned and used a prod in the dark ages. Training methods and equipment have evolved. Prods, rat shot, shaking the change in your pocket... are historical discussions. Today I can not think of an indication for its use. 

Tim


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

What are the minimum and maximum voltages of common training collars? I have looked on Dogtra and Tri-Tronics websites and cannot find them published within their websites. I found many articles from the UK regarding training collars. Most site the use of electricity is not needed for training and harms the animals. This research resulted in many products being banned. 

http://members.aol.com/ukaim/frame.htm?c_shock.htm

I am curious to the actual comparison of a common collar such as a "Tri-Tronics Pro" compared to the "Hot Shot" when actual applied stimulation voltage is measured. 

The Hot Shot Prod advertises a voltage of 9,000 volts. 

What is the voltage of a Tri-Tronics Pro model when used on "frantic/continuous" mode? 

Just curious of the actual "scientific" side of the arguments....

Paul G.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

LSpann,

Are you not worried, that with incorrect timing, you will have fallout - no goes etc.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Only other comparison of published voltage is a police model stun gun. 

"The Panther" delivers 900,000 volts of stimulation. Other models advertised over 1million volts of applied stimulation.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

One other note, I just called Tri-Tronics and the representative said the applied stimulation voltage is proprietary information they will not release and cannot be measured accurately.


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

First to Kristie: truly an excellent post...thank you for doing it.

And also to Angie, moscowitz, Patrick, ducksoup, KG and all the others who have moved out of the Dark Ages and appreciate the benefits of modern training methods and equipment: thank you for voicing your objections to what I firmly believe is an unnecessary, barbaric, cruel and probably damned lazy way to try to train a dog.

I'm sure the prod gets results (I'd sure as hell pay attention if someone burned me with one...right before I retaliated with something stronger), but I'm also sure that what KG said is accurate: "there is NOTHING positive that can come from the use of a prod. Period."

Just my 2¢ added to what is surely becoming a tired subject...again.


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