# "Silver" lab volunteers???



## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

After the recent silver lab thread, I contacted the folks at dog-dna.com about whether or not they could identify Weimeraner genes in silver labs.
This is their response...

_Sherri,
I just got through talking to Kathy at our lab. We identify breed specific genes within a dog, but not color genes._* If a Lab has Weimeraner in its heritage, we should pick that up with our test. 
I hope this answers your question. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
* _
Regards,

*Briana Rogers*
Mixed Breed Dog DNA Testing
http://www.dog-dna.com
[email protected]






_


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

So now all we need is someone to send in Silver lab DNA. That'll never happen.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Depends on if people have something to hide or not.


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> After the recent silver lab thread, I contacted the folks at dog-dna.com about whether or not they could identify Weimeraner genes in silver labs.
> This is their response...
> 
> _Sherri,
> ...


Do you really think it is Weimeraner genes that are at play here? Not a really poorly bred chocolate line causing a really deluted chocolate or black color? Or Chocolate and yellow breeding causing this color mess up? I know the Weimeraner coat is very similar, I have wondered how they are getting that color for quite a while. 

Heather


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Heather M said:


> Do you really think it is Weimeraner genes that are at play here? Not a really poorly bred chocolate line causing a really deluted chocolate or black color? Or Chocolate and yellow breeding causing this color mess up? I know the Weimeraner coat is very similar, I have wondered how they are getting that color for quite a while.
> 
> Heather


There are a lot of signs that point that direction, but honestly, only the DNA test will prove one way or another.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Fowl Play WA said:


> So now all we need is someone to send in Silver lab DNA. That'll never happen.


Depends on if they have anything to hide!


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Heather, I have seen so many with the dorked up Weim ears and nose, it makes me really think it's weim genes. I don't know if this test is specific enough or not...it's just so new. I knew they'd come up with a test some day, but didn't realize it would be this soon.


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Fowl Play WA said:


> There are a lot of signs that point that direction, but honestly, only the DNA test will prove one way or another.


I agree, I just hope someone does the DNA test to prove or disprove the coat color. If they are breeding in another breed and selling them as pure bred labradors that would be a shame and they need to be stopped. Of course what does not help is there are always people that will buy these "designer" dogs which will keep them breeding.

In all the years I have been breeding labradors I have never had one come out silver or any where near that. Just crazy!!

Heather


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Just a thought, what if the dna test proved Silvers were 100 percent lab? Heaven forbid what would we do?


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> Heather, I have seen so many with the dorked up Weim ears and nose, it makes me really think it's weim genes. I don't know if this test is specific enough or not...it's just so new. I knew they'd come up with a test some day, but didn't realize it would be this soon.


I sure hope it works and they figure out what they are doing. Do you know if when they do there breeding do the other three colors pop up in there litters too?

Heather


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Heather M said:


> In all the years I have been breeding labradors I have never had one come out silver or any where near that. Just crazy!!
> Heather


Neither have the other chocolate breeders I know...


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Heather M said:


> Do you really think it is Weimeraner genes that are at play here? Not a really poorly bred chocolate line causing a really deluted chocolate or black color? Or Chocolate and yellow breeding causing this color mess up? I know the Weimeraner coat is very similar, I have wondered how they are getting that color for quite a while.
> 
> Heather


No -- trust me, the color genetics at play are VERY simple dominant vs. recessive genes that anyone familiar with color genetics in dogs will realize, doesn't have a lot of guesswork involved. No other gene except the "D" blue dilute gene would cause that coloration in any breed. 
--Anney


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

duk4me said:


> Just a thought, what if the dna test proved Silvers were 100 percent lab? Heaven forbid what would we do?


If that happened and it could, it would kinda fall into what I kinda think and that is they are breeding poor recessive chocolate and yellow genes together to get that color and when you breed recessive genes over and over that can cause health problems and would not be good. 
Just my thought on the whole thing.

Heather


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Furball said:


> No -- trust me, the color genetics at play are VERY simple dominant vs. recessive genes that anyone familiar with color genetics in dogs will realize, doesn't have a lot of guesswork involved. No other gene except the "D" blue dilute gene would cause that coloration in any breed.
> --Anney


And the "silver" lab breeders would have us believe this gene is naturally occurring in chocolates...I'm just not buying it.


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Furball said:


> No -- trust me, the color genetics at play are VERY simple dominant vs. recessive genes that anyone familiar with color genetics in dogs will realize, doesn't have a lot of guesswork involved. No other gene except the "D" blue dilute gene would cause that coloration in any breed.
> --Anney


I know about the labrador color genes but did not know that they have to have "D" blue dilute gene to get that color. Let me guess that is the Wiemraner gene. Makes me want to buy a pup just to get it tested, but I would not want to help them either by buying one.

Heather


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Heather M said:


> I know about the labrador color genes but did not know that they have to have "D" blue dilute gene to get that color. Let me guess that is the Wiemraner gene. Makes me want to buy a pup just to get it tested, but I would not want to help them either by buying one.
> 
> Heather


You got it. The D allele when recessive causes BLACK to dilute to BLUE or BROWN (chocolate) to dilute to ASH/BLUE FAWN. 
Lots of breeds are blue dilute - Weimaraners (100% of them), blue Great Danes, blue Dobermans, blue Italian greyhounds, blue Pit Bulls, blue Border collies, etc. 
If a dog was both recessive at the B (Brown) allele (CHOCOLATE) and recessive at the D locus you get "ash" (as in ash colored Chesapeakes) or "blue fawn" ( i.e. blue fawn Italian greyhounds, blue fawn pit bulls, etc).
Pretty simple stuff. It would be exceedingly rare for a mutation to occur that switches the homozygous dominant B allele (no dilute) in labradors to recessive in the egg or sperm of a labrador. I'm talking, the chances are one in a trillion, at the most. Then to have TWO of these come together and form an embryo....so unlikely it could be considered impossible.
It is far, far, FAR more likely there is a weimaraner in the woodshed. Breed a lab with a weim, breed the offspring together, and they have a 25% chance of being "silver" labs. Breed two of these silver dogs together and you have 100% "silver" labradors (that are actually 1/2 weimaraner). 
--Anney


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Furball said:


> You got it. The D allele when recessive causes BLACK to dilute to BLUE or BROWN (chocolate) to dilute to ASH/BLUE FAWN.
> Lots of breeds are blue dilute - Weimaraners (100% of them), blue Great Danes, blue Dobermans, blue Italian greyhounds, blue Pit Bulls, blue Border collies, etc.
> If a dog was both recessive at the B (Brown) allele (CHOCOLATE) and recessive at the D locus you get "ash" (as in ash colored Chesapeakes) or "blue fawn" ( i.e. blue fawn Italian greyhounds, blue fawn pit bulls, etc).
> Pretty simple stuff. It would be exceedingly rare for a mutation to occur that switches the homozygous dominant B allele (no dilute) in labradors to recessive in the egg or sperm of a labrador. I'm talking, the chances are one in a trillion, at the most. Then to have TWO of these come together and form an embryo....so unlikely it could be considered impossible.
> ...



Anney, 

Wow, guess that throws my theory out the window...lol. so you would need a DNA test or one of these "Silver Lab breeders" to be honest. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Heather


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

That would be awesome to find out, and if it were proven to be not 100% lab, and were out of a certain breeder could be worth some money also. If I had a silver I would put it up for testing, because I would be peeved to find out that it were nothing but lab.


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## Scott K (Jan 4, 2009)

Forgive me as I am a little "un-educated" on Silver Labs but does the AKC acknowledge and allow them to be registered? If so then wouldn't the Weim be showing up in the lineage somewhere?

I have never seen a "silver" in person so my next question would be has anyone seen one run a test or hunted with one? If so how did they do?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

You can always lie on who the stud is, just substitute weims name for your chocolate studs name.


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## TY 4 (Dec 22, 2006)

Theirs a guy that I'm helping train his yellow female lab that came from a two chocolate parent litter. The litter was two yellow pups and the rest were chocolate. Both yellow pups have a nose, mouth area, and eye rims that are pinkish in color. UKC describes this as a "Dudley", disqualifications for the color and can’t register the dog till she is spade.


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## Scott K (Jan 4, 2009)

Sorry to threadjack this topic and I'm sure it has been discussed numerous times but I have never really looked into the "silver" issue until reading this thread.

So my question would be why hasn't a silver breeder DNA tested their own dogs to dis-prove the "Weim" theory?

Not taking sides here just curious.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Birdie Retriever said:


> Ok
> So my question would be why hasn't the breeder above DNA tested their own dogs to dis-prove the "Weim" theory?
> 
> Not taking sides here just curious.


Probably because they're afraid of the results.:2c:

The DNA test has been out long enough for someone to disprove the weim cross, yet no one has. If they were certain that silver was 100% lab, then I'm sure someone would have jumped on it quickly and shut people up.


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Probably because they're afraid of the results.:2c:
> 
> The DNA test has been out long enough for someone to disprove the weim cross, yet no one has. If they were certain that silver was 100% lab, then I'm sure someone would have jumped on it quickly and shut people up.


Boy I sure would like someone to dis-prove them and make them pay up!!! Thanks would be great.


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Birdie Retriever said:


> Ok well I did a search on Google and came across this breeder's page:
> 
> http://www.silverlabradorinfo.com/
> 
> ...



So are they registering them as Chocolate labs and calling them Silver?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

In the end....100 years from now, after we all are dead....

will it really matter?

Juli


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

My question is whether the AKC really allowed labs to be registered as "silver" as the website for silver labs states?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

sky_view said:


> In the end....100 years from now, after we all are dead....
> 
> will it really matter?
> 
> Juli


That is one fine silver lab in your avatar......sorry couldn't resist.:razz:


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## Britt&Angie S. (Apr 2, 2009)

Yes you can register your silver lab with AKC under choc like Fox Red under yellow. I think breeders breeding these silver labs should do limited registration on them until this is figured out!


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I think his question is...Did AKC use to register them as Silver Labs as they state in their website?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

duk4me said:


> That is one fine silver lab in your avatar......sorry couldn't resist.:razz:


 
no - he's blue, actually - and I cropped his ears too! LOL LOL LOL

Funny, in the taxidermy world we look for the uniquely marked animals....lynx with white toes or feet (or any animal with white toes or feet) large white blazes on bears, the very rare 'Glacier bear'...which of course is 'blue phased...and also blue phased wolves, fox, etc etc.....

http://www.glacierbearlodge.com/alaska-salmon-fishing-images/glacierbear_photo.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/o4/45/685845/1/64885099.1S0peDBD.GlacierBears39Img20.jpg

Juli


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

kindakinky said:


> My question is whether the AKC really allowed labs to be registered as "silver" as the website for silver labs states?


No, there are only three colors. According to some, light, medium and dark black.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> I think his question is...Did AKC use to register them as Silver Labs as they state in their website?


AKC never had a Silver color for Labs. One year they had an "other"


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Furball said:


> You got it. The D allele when recessive causes BLACK to dilute to BLUE or BROWN (chocolate) to dilute to ASH/BLUE FAWN.
> Lots of breeds are blue dilute - Weimaraners (100% of them), blue Great Danes, blue Dobermans, blue Italian greyhounds, blue Pit Bulls, blue Border collies, etc.
> If a dog was both recessive at the B (Brown) allele (CHOCOLATE) and recessive at the D locus you get "ash" (as in ash colored Chesapeakes) or "blue fawn" ( i.e. blue fawn Italian greyhounds, blue fawn pit bulls, etc).


And blue Newfs--a breed sharing ancestry with the Labrador.



> Pretty simple stuff. It would be exceedingly rare for a mutation to occur that switches the homozygous dominant B allele (no dilute) in labradors to recessive in the egg or sperm of a labrador. I'm talking, the chances are one in a trillion, at the most. Then to have TWO of these come together and form an embryo....so unlikely it could be considered impossible.


It doesn't work like that. A mutation occurs and may be passed on unnoticed for generations...until linebreeding brings two of them together. So it doesn't have to happen twice, only once. Or it could have been there from the origins of the breed in Newfoundland. 

Amy Dahl


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

afdahl said:


> And blue Newfs--a breed sharing ancestry with the Labrador.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So Amy, are you of the opinion that it is more likely that these "silver labs" are truly labrador retrievers who have this gene passed down from the common ancestor of the Newfies or that someone has crossed a lab with a Weimeraner to make a quick buck?

Not being a smart aleck. I know you know a good deal about the genetics involved. Surely you have an opinion/best guess?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

lets consider glacier bears...

they are black bears - which come in chocolate/cinnamon, black, and more rarely white or blue....the blue and white phases are due to a genetic mutation....

so why not labradors? certainly there are far more labs in the America's than there are black bears....

not to say that there probably have not been some breeders that added a little weim blood to their labs...but I definitely think it is possible from a purely genetic standpoint...

My own, and _*Unprofessional*_, Opinion... 

Juli


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

sky_view said:


> lets consider glacier bears...
> 
> they are black bears - which come in chocolate/cinnamon, black, and more rarely white or blue....the blue and white phases are due to a genetic mutation....
> 
> ...


Remember, people specifically suspect the Weims because they believe that the "silver labs" exhibit other characteristics of the Weimeraners than just the color.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

HuntinDawg said:


> Remember, people specifically suspect the Weims because they believe that the "silver labs" exhibit other characteristics of the Weimeraners than just the color.


 
I agree - but I have seen some black and choco and yellows that looked a lot like hounds too..... - long long ears, narrow pointed muzzles, fine boned, skinny, roach backed, whip tailed...

think about the tan point labs, and other odd colorations that occur....result of mixing with hounds or other breeds or result of genetic mutation???

Juli


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## Jerry D Herring (Feb 25, 2009)

what i want to know is it really that big a deal i mean yea it sucks that someone is making a killing off the bread but does it really change the dog.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I asked the same question a while ago. But no one picked up on it. All we need is one silver owner to do a DNA test. Are there any Silver owers on here that will do that?


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

sky_view said:


> I agree - but I have seen some black and choco and yellows that looked a lot like hounds too..... - long long ears, narrow pointed muzzles, fine boned, skinny, roach backed, whip tailed...
> 
> think about the tan point labs, and other odd colorations that occur....result of mixing with hounds or other breeds or result of genetic mutation???
> 
> Juli


I agree that some labs have large ears, etc., but I have no idea what a "tan point lab" is.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

HuntinDawg said:


> So Amy, are you of the opinion that it is more likely that these "silver labs" are truly labrador retrievers who have this gene passed down from the common ancestor of the Newfies or that someone has crossed a lab with a Weimeraner to make a quick buck?
> 
> Not being a smart aleck. I know you know a good deal about the genetics involved. Surely you have an opinion/best guess?


I can't say that no one in the modern day has got up to anything fishy, but I believe the blue dilute allele has been in the breed from its beginnings.

One reason is that the earliest report I can find of what sound like "silver" puppies, referenced in Helen Warwick's book, was in 1932.

Another reason is that Dr. Mark Neff, UC Berkeley professor working on the dog genome project, told me he believes that. Dr. Neff has researched the color. At the time we spoke he said the determining allele functioned as a blue dilute, but it was not known whether it was the same mutation causing blue dilute in other breeds (I expect they know that now). Dr. Neff has been collecting pedigrees of silver Labs that have appeared unexpectedly in litters. He said I'd "be surprised" where they have been turning up, and that his pedigree research indicates that the gene goes back a long way in the breed.

A third reason is probability. Chocolates were disfavored for much of the breed's history, and the blue dilute condition is easily overlooked in a black dog. With few chocolates, even fewer "silvers" would be produced. Breeders fearing that doubt would be cast on their dogs' purebred status would hardly want to advertise these (and Dr. Neff's comments suggest that is still the case today). So you wouldn't have seen them on every street corner--but not seeing them does not amount to evidence that the d allele was not in the breed.

I haven't seen a silver Lab up close, but I gather the breeders breed pretty closely to keep the color prominent, which could lead to some pronounced physical types.

There were some other interesting color articles I read, including that the E and e alleles in Labs are like those in Newfs and Goldens, but unlike those in most other breeds. The mutations involved have apparently occurred more than once. Anyway, it clearly supports the idea that these breeds shared common ancestors, more recently than they share with other breeds.

Amy Dahl


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

If the DNA results came back that said the silver dogs were 100%, would you believe them? I don't know if I would. Isn't it possible that the weim cross came in several generations ago and (for argument's sake), since then, there haven't been any new introductions .... I would think that in this case the results may indicate that the dogs were pure lab. 

How accurate is the test, really? If I sent in a sample of one of my sister's racing sled dogs, would it pick up that there is GSP, English Pointer, Greyhound, Saluki, Chesapeake, and way way back, maybe some Siberian in there? Hmmm, sounds like a fun experiment....


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

afdahl said:


> I can't say that no one in the modern day has got up to anything fishy, but I believe the blue dilute allele has been in the breed from its beginnings.
> 
> One reason is that the earliest report I can find of what sound like "silver" puppies, referenced in Helen Warwick's book, was in 1932.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for the thorough answer Amy!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Kinderdoggin said:


> If the DNA results came back that said the silver dogs were 100%, would you believe them? I don't know if I would. Isn't it possible that the weim cross came in several generations ago and (for argument's sake), since then, there haven't been any new introductions .... I would think that in this case the results may indicate that the dogs were pure lab.
> 
> How accurate is the test, really? If I sent in a sample of one of my sister's racing sled dogs, would it pick up that there is GSP, English Pointer, Greyhound, Saluki, Chesapeake, and way way back, maybe some Siberian in there? Hmmm, sounds like a fun experiment....


A friend of mine rescued a dog that looked like a black lab. She did an ILP or PAL registration so she could run it in hunt tests and/or obedience. She had the DNA test done on the dog and it came back as Labrador Retriever except for a very tiny percentage that was not identified....so I gather that the test must be pretty refined.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> AKC never had a Silver color for Labs. One year they had an "other"


If there was an "other", than did it mean any color could be registered under the "other" classification? What year was the "other" classification? What was the parent club's opinion on the "other" classification?

J. Marti


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> If there was an "other", than did it mean any color could be registered under the "other" classification? What year was the "other" classification? What was the parent club's opinion on the "other" classification?
> 
> J. Marti


It appeared on a 1987 blue slip registration. I know because I still have it. I assume it was a mistake. Originally I thought that's how they got the Silvers registered but they might have always put them under chocolate.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ummm....wouldn't it be possible that, say if there are 100 silver "breeders", that since the gene may well exist, that some may come from those genetics, while others may have had Wiemaraner introduced? Testing one or two or six silvers isn't going to prove much of anything except for that individual dog. Suppose the one that volunteers to be tested comes up 100% Lab....that doesn't mean that all silvers are 100%. But you can bet the silver "breeders" would jump on the 100% bandwagon right quick.


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## Britt&Angie S. (Apr 2, 2009)

This is what i found http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/labradorakcsilver.htm

I am a little taken back by the first part of based on parentage and not color??? whats next??


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

mismarked labs

http://www.littlecreekacres.com/mismarks.html

Juli


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

TY 4 said:


> Theirs a guy that I'm helping train his yellow female lab that came from a two chocolate parent litter. The litter was two yellow pups and the rest were chocolate. Both yellow pups have a nose, mouth area, and eye rims that are pinkish in color. UKC describes this as a "Dudley", disqualifications for the color and can’t register the dog till she is spade.


 
See http://www.labbies.com/genetics.htm #81 for that combo. Pink pigment is a DQ in AKC also.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Heather M said:


> Do you really think it is Weimeraner genes that are at play here? Not a really poorly bred chocolate line causing a really deluted chocolate or black color? Or Chocolate and yellow breeding causing this color mess up? I know the Weimeraner coat is very similar, I have wondered how they are getting that color for quite a while.
> 
> Heather


 
No it's not at all similar-- to a correct lab coat anyhow.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Platte Labs said:


> This is what i found http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/labradorakcsilver.htm
> 
> I am a little taken back by the first part of based on parentage and not color??? whats next??


The DNA tests back then could only prove the parents were those stated, and even that only if both parents and the dog in question were all DNA tested. In fact the original silver Lab kennel Crist Culo, used to offer a $100,000 reward for anyone that could prove the silver Labs weren't pure Labs. It was a pretty safe bet with the DNA tests available at that time. I don't think the offer still stands ;-)

My sister has a rescued silver Lab, it's actually a charcoal colored. I'm sure she wouldn't mind offering it for DNA testing but she was never registered. I think she was AKC registerable by the original owners, but my sister no longer has the papers since she never wanted her as anything but a pet. The dog is 8 now and she had her spayed when she adopted her at 5 mos. In fact she tells people she's a Lab/Weim cross as that's what she looks like.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Platte Labs said:


> This is what i found http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/labradorakcsilver.htm
> 
> I am a little taken back by the first part of based on parentage and not color??? whats next??


I've seen the statment on AKC's consensus regarding silver Labs, by Robert Young, at virtually any silver Lab kennel websites that I've look at. Among the many things that I find confusing is that I can't seem to find the same statement in a search on AKC's website and the only Robert Young that I can find at AKC is a photographer. It seems odd to me that a photographer would be making official statements on behalf of AKC. I could be mistaken, of course.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I was told the real story in person by an AKC rep and that statement is very embellished. I'm not sure why AKC was called to CCK, whether they did register a silver in "other" because it was at the same time, or if there was a complaint, but a newer AKC rep was sent up there to look at the dogs and he himself determined they were chocolates and should be registered under chocolate. Subsequently this person was no longer an AKC rep, but AKC had no way of proving the Weim blood other than by finding the bones of the Weim because too many generations had gone by. That's why CCK offered the reward, because he knew he had them. BTW, I don't see how it would be possible that one obscure kennel that raised Weims and Labs could possibly have two parents with mutations. The early pedigrees that I had at one time showed complete inbreeding, brother sister, mother son, and no doubt culling. I also think that most silvers go back to the CCK. It would be interesting if someone offered a silver up for the DNA breed analysis available now to see if they could pick up the Weim. To me the giveaway has always been the ears are still Weim.
The reason they won't do it is obvious-they are selling silvers for much more and they would risk losing purebred status, although since AKC is going to register mutts it shouldn't matter except they won't be able to breed them.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

I always thought that Christ Culo was the kennel that started silvers, but on another board, someone told me it was Kellogg? All the pedigrees I have seen of silver labs have Culo in them, but I've never seen a pedigree with Kellogg. Any ideas where that idea may have perpetuated?


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Aside from the fact the Kellogg had some of the oldest chocolate bloodlines around, I've never heard or seen any silver associated with them. I wouldn't take the comment with any measure of credibility. There are many famous chocolates now that go back to Kellogg. Most notable I am aware of are the Gator Point dogs. I have both Gator Point and Kellogg behind my chocolates and no silver.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

gsc said:


> Aside from the fact the Kellogg had some of the oldest chocolate bloodlines around, I've never heard or seen any silver associated with them. I wouldn't take the comment with any measure of credibility. There are many famous chocolates now that go back to Kellogg. Most notable I am aware of are the Gator Point dogs. I have both Gator Point and Kellogg behind my chocolates and no silver.


Thanks. I had never heard of Kellogg being associated with silver before, but this person was quite adamant about it. I'm still learning about pedigrees and prominent kennels so I had to ask.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

The DNA tests cannot pinpoint breeds. Just because someone is willing to part you from your money to run a test, does not mean you will get worthwhile information from it.

"DNA testing" for mixed breeds is the current Yuppie fad. Totally useless. The dog geneome project has only carved the genome up into four very (and I stress VERY) broad groups of breeds. Widely separated types (Lab x Chow, for instance) can be separated, but not into "Lab" and "Chow" but into "Arctic" and "Hunting" categories. Hunting dogs cannot be separated out, and include the hounds, spaniels, pointing breeds, retrievers, etc. This is largely because there was so much crossing between all of these groups, that they virtually have the same gene pool. 

The thing to understand about DNA, is that it is "conserved" to a remarkable extent in mammalian species. By that, I mean that the identical alleles occur in many species (a lot of the genes that dogs have occur in humans, which is why dogs make such good research critters for DNA tests). Dog breeds may appear very different to us, but on a molecular level, all dogs have very similar DNA. Most breeds have most of the canine alleles floating around somewhere in their gene pools. It is only by the selection of the breeder that certain traits are maintained, while others are rejected. But breeds do not have unique sets of genes that would "prove" purebred or not.

But, if you want to "prove" whether there is weim in the breed or not, by all means, send in the test. But I think it is those who are trying to "prove" the cross who should pay the freight. After all, if I had a "silver" Lab and someone else was kicking up a fuss, well, it's MY dog, what do you care what color MY dog is??? Why should I pay for an expensive and worthless test, just to satisfy YOUR panty-waddedness?

Lisa


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

I don't condone the silver lab thing (cuz i personally think it's kind of ugly), but so what really?

Isn't the lab a mix of several dogs? (St John's Water Dog, Newfie, etc...)

A lot, if not the majority of the sporting breeds, are developed from breeding several dogs together over time to get the 'standards' we have today.


About 15 years ago, chocolates were the scourge of the earth at trials and tests..(I know, I had 2 of them, and I was routinely looked down upon for not having "real labs", "chocolates are wild, unruly, can't be trained, blah blah blah"......then somebody titled a few, and one wins at nationals, and all of the sudden, they are as accepted as the yellows and blacks...

same thing with pointing labs.....jeez, my wife's poodle/yorkie mix points at birds in the yard.....doesn't mean a thing....she's not gonna try and change the standards or create a new 'Yorkiepoo Pointer' or anything.

I've seen genetic mutants before...I've seen a dapple lab. and the pedigrees were flawless, and the kennel was well respected. (for the record, the dog was neutered, and not registered, and sold as a pet) 

Keep in mind too, that 50 yrs ago, or longer, it was also quite common to snuff out oddities in litters.....and many of these 'silvers' may have been around, and never made it past their first few breaths.

Of all the groups of people that are supposed to be 'friendly, bond sharing, species caring, animal loving etc.....' sometimes I think Lab people are the worst snobs there are....

and don't get me wrong, I'm a lab guy....I just get tired of all the 'purists' and 'holier than thou' mentalities that plague this sport.

live and let live.....

if the breeder isn't tarnishing your kennel name, and you aren't buying his or her pups, leave em be


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

gsc said:


> Aside from the fact the Kellogg had some of the oldest chocolate bloodlines around, I've never heard or seen any silver associated with them. I wouldn't take the comment with any measure of credibility. There are many famous chocolates now that go back to Kellogg. Most notable I am aware of are the Gator Point dogs. I have both Gator Point and Kellogg behind my chocolates and no silver.


 
I have some Kellogg way back also, and haven't yet produced a silver here. Anne


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

marshmonster said:


> Of all the groups of people that are supposed to be 'friendly, bond sharing, species caring, animal loving etc.....' sometimes I think Lab people are the worst snobs there are....


There may be some of that. I could be mistaken, but I think the real objection is the silver Lab breeders promoting those dogs as something they're not, i.e. unique, superior, well worth the outrageous prices, etc., just as the objection to certain (not all) British Lab kennels is that to promote their strain, they criticize and denigrate American Labs unjustly, unfairly and inaccurately.


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

just as the objection to certain (not all) British Lab kennels is that to promote their strain, they criticize and denigrate American Labs unjustly, unfairly and inaccurately.
__________________




again, more proof of the exact mentality that you quoted from my first post....

"your lab is just as good as my lab, as long as it is the same color, has all the same clearances, and has the same number of HRCH, FC, and AFC parents and grandparents....and you use the same training methods I do, and attend the same seminars, and read the same books." 

otherwise, you have a meat dog that the AKC and UKC should shun....



I guess I'll never get it...if someone is stupid enough to spend 2500 on a dog because it looks silver, or has a Cockney accent when it barks, that's their loss? Nowhere does it say that we have to contribute..why does it bother so many.

I saw a wide variety of dogs this past weekend. Some yellow, some almost white, some almost red.some chocolate, some jet black...some with pointed muzzles, some with square heads...some 50 pounds, some 105 pounds

and they all approached the job with tails wagging and a lot of drive. And the handlers were all nervous to start and smiling at the end, pass or fail

and not one 'style' or another did any better than any other....

that's what it should be about...

not trying to start an argument, or defend any one type of dog over another, just pointing out that it really shouldn't matter what others think of us, or what we think of them.....

and Don, you and I are running the same class this weekend in Ohio, I look forward to meeting you. We're both running a "Molly"


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

marshmonster said:


> Of all the groups of people that are supposed to be 'friendly, bond sharing, species caring, animal loving etc.....' sometimes I think Lab people are the worst snobs there are....


trust me, it isn't just labs...

it boils down to ego - mine is better than yours....and it happens in all breeds...

Juli


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

marshmonster said:


> and Don, you and I are running the same class this weekend in Ohio, I look forward to meeting you. We're both running a "Molly"


Had to scratch her sister. She came into season. Running my HRCH/MH Daisy in finished. She just got another Master pass last weekend in a very technical test. Not bad of her for virtually no training this year due to her having pups, my broken ankle and still hanging a little from having pups.

I'm not sure I understand your above post, however. What I was _trying_ to say in mine is that there may be some who are "snobs" based solely on color, but I think that many, including me, don't really care what the dog is except to the extent that the others, whether silver Lab or British Lab, try to promote theirs by tearing down other Labs are claiming they are somehow superior to other Labs. I could care less what someone eslse owns. Heck, I even have a client dog Labradoodle in for gun dog training. I just object to those who try to promote theirs at the expense of others, when, truly, BT Barnum's comment is a more accurate reflection of what they are trying to foist on the unsuspecting buyer.


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

we're on the same page....maybe I just didn't word it right

my Molly and Rex are running in Started.

you'll get a kick out of Rex after reading this thread....he's no lab


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

sky_view said:


> trust me, it isn't just labs...
> 
> it boils down to ego - mine is better than yours....and it happens in all breeds...
> 
> Juli


Ego, and selection.

If the "rare" color is the primary reason for breeding the dog...whatever breed, then that is emphasis on the wrong syl-LA-ble. On the flipside, if removing the dog from the gene pool is done solely based on color, and no other attributes are taken into consideration, again, emphasis on the wrong syl-LA-ble.

Certainly, if you have a dog that is not of the "accepted" color for show, you do not show it! However, if everything else about the dog is tip-top quality, why would you not breed it? Apples and oranges. I am thinking of a Poodle kennel not far from me, who use piebalds quite a bit in their breeding program, which has produced National Specialty best of Breed winners. That's looking outside conventional beliefs, and considering the whole dog when seleting breeding animals. 

If a breeder can't sell dogs by focusing on the positive merits of their own stock, then their dogs are not worth buying. If the only thing they can do is tear down someone else's dogs, they are already starting from the back of the pack. But if their dogs have lots of plusses going for them (health clearances, working qualities, handsome, etc.) and "yeah, also happens to have the dilution gene, stuff happens", well IMHO, no harm, no foul. Trash talk to sell puppies doesn't just happen among those with "different" dogs, but among those with "conventional" ones as well. Maybe moreso, all things considered.

Lisa


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

Two conculsions I have made. Does this happen in the rest of the world or is "silver"only here? What would happen if you generationly back track "silvers to an orgin terrtory like northern Georgia west South Carolina?


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Will the DNA test prove that my pink lab is not a true lab but actually a cross between a lab and Cupid?

Never mind. I just figured out my 6 year-old colored him with Chalk. Dang! I thought I had me a cash cow.


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## Jerry D Herring (Feb 25, 2009)

sky_view said:


> trust me, it isn't just labs...
> 
> it boils down to ego - mine is better than yours....and it happens in all breeds...
> 
> Juli


 
Its true my wiem is better than your lab. LOL JK my dog is just as good as any other dog out there. the difference is that i just like wiems better than labs. doesnt mean wiems are better than labs just a personal preference. and i think that is the deal that people just have many preferences in the types of dogs that they get. like me i prefer the GSP and the Wiem. dont know why just like the looks of the dogs.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

From the manufacturer of one of the two "breed DNA" tests (the other is Mars, yes, that's right, the candy people!):The Canine Heritage™ XL Breed Test is not designed for use as a purebred or paternity verification test and is not an established legal tool. A kennel or breed club certifies a dog’s breed based on pedigree documentation. If necessary, kennel and breed clubs use legally recognized canine paternity testing to verify relationship. These tests use a different type of DNA analysis than the Canine Heritage™ XL Breed Test. 

In other words, this is just for fun, not to be used for pedigree validation or real breed determination. For a company that uses this test to tell people that they can definitely tell if there is Weim in a Lab, when the test's manufacturer says differently, well, draw your own conclu$ion$.

Lisa


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## dove slayer (Feb 10, 2009)

so whats gonna happen if a silver earns his or her fc or afc or something then what


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

dove slayer said:


> so whats gonna happen if a silver earns his or her fc or afc or something then what


All the power to them. First they have to enter.


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

duk4me said:


> Just a thought, what if the dna test proved Silvers were 100 percent lab? Heaven forbid what would we do?


Honestly, being that the majority of "silvers" out there are highly inbred, generation after generation, I wouldn't doubt it. By this stage in their "breeding programs," I don't think the DNA test could not accurately define a breed that was added in multiple generations before.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

After reading everything, it looks to be that the main fear is that some of the silvers maybe the result of a cross with wiems that was not authorized nor admited when they were registered and that cross bred line is being pertepuated and sold as pure bred and registered as such?


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

After a quick search I found over 54 threads on silver labs. Why as a group do we feel the need tp perpetuate this kind of discussion? It just seems so pointless.


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

man y'all are some hateful folks! I dont know who you guys are harder on people who own pits or people who try to sell silver labs. Im almost afraid to tell you the "dog" Im hunting and training now is possibly only half lab, but she gets the job done and keeps me satisfied. People will buy and sell these dogs as long as their available, just as well suck it up and roll with the punches, DNA test or not there are folks on here who have already stated variouse possibilities for why they still wont believe that these dogs arent pure bred. I agree with a previouse poster that lab people are a tough crowd.
jim


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

jimmyp said:


> Im almost afraid to tell you the "dog" Im hunting and training now is possibly only half lab, jim


The problem only exists when you try and sell your half lab as a purebred registered lab.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

You've gotten volunteers from a couple of other sites. I'll volunteer on this one also. 

Send me the info and I'll send you the swaps. 

By the way, my silver came from a Kellogs dog.
Sire is Kellogs Vanadium Chip Mc Coy:2c:

I personally don't give a rat's arse if he is purple with 3 legs and barks with a lisp as long as he picks up ducks. I haven't registered the dog but, I have his AKC and UKC paperwork in my hand.

Again, send me the info and you have your swab.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Wow, yours has Kellogg! My first chocolate had Kellogg, he was a hunting maniac. I know they used to (years ago anyway) breed mostly chocolate so that makes sense. And as far as testing my silver, bring it on. I'm in. If you saw his build you would never doubt his dna.... like the previous poster - he hunts, retreives and is a big goofy, loveable dog and thats what matters. So since you all - well most of you anyway - think they are part weim what do you think white labs and red labs are crossed with? Just curious?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Personally I could not care less, if my Labs were pink with red dots, as long as they won and had genetic health. 

Grey - no way.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

dove slayer said:


> so whats gonna happen if a silver earns his or her fc or afc or something then what


The same thing as what happened when the first Chessie to earn an FC (actually, the first dog of any retriever breed) was a very dark brown (liver) dog, contrary to the written standard in force at the time (liver was a disqualification). Oops.

Sadly, it was not entirely the end of using the breed's written standard as a political football. But Chessies are not alone in this. 

Lisa


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Here's a spin...how about, instead of having the silver Lab folks pony up their $ to do a DNA test, that anyone on this thread with a 100% purebred, registered dog (of any breed) do the test on their own dog? 

Now *there's* a result I would be interested in! Have been contemplating doing this with one of my dogs since this fad all started. Since the assumption on the part of the testing company is that my dog is a mix, and we know there was frequent crossbreeding in ALL breeds until the middle of the 20th century, AND I can categorically state that I have YET to find any scientifically published paper documenting the validity of the DNA test, WHAT ARE THE ODDS my dogs will come back "tested" as some kind of mix?

Anyone? Anyone?

Lisa


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## Jerry D Herring (Feb 25, 2009)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Here's a spin...how about, instead of having the silver Lab folks pony up their $ to do a DNA test, that anyone on this thread with a 100% purebred, registered dog (of any breed) do the test on their own dog?
> 
> Now *there's* a result I would be interested in! Have been contemplating doing this with one of my dogs since this fad all started. Since the assumption on the part of the testing company is that my dog is a mix, and we know there was frequent crossbreeding in ALL breeds until the middle of the 20th century, AND I can categorically state that I have YET to find any scientifically published paper documenting the validity of the DNA test, WHAT ARE THE ODDS my dogs will come back "tested" as some kind of mix?
> 
> ...


 
how much does it cost. ill do it on maverick why the hell not if it aint too expensive.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Jerry D Herring said:


> how much does it cost. ill do it on maverick why the hell not if it aint too expensive.


It runs about $125, or 2 Master entries, depending on your world view.

Lisa


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Kinderdoggin said:


> If the DNA results came back that said the silver dogs were 100%, would you believe them?


If the test isn't that accurate, all it will do is give them marketing material but I'm never going to get past those Weim ears.


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## Jerry D Herring (Feb 25, 2009)

mines a weim 100% give or take a few %


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

So who has the authority to "improve" a breed? If Gordon setters were used to improve labs coats in the past. Why was this acceptable? Just wondering since Gage's hips are OFA Excellent. Wouldn't it be great that a side effect of "silver labs" was an overall improvement in Labrador hips?!? Isn't a Wolf or a wild dog the only _true_ prubreed anyway.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> So who has the authority to "improve" a breed? If Gordon setters were used to improve labs coats in the past. Why was this acceptable? Just wondering since Gage's hips are OFA Excellent. Wouldn't it be great that a side effect of "silver labs" was an overall improvement in Labrador hips?!? Isn't a Wolf or a wild dog the only _true_ prubreed anyway.


I believe the authority is the breed club. They are the ones who own the breed standard. This is one of the fundamental questions in this debate. IF this was a wiem cross that was not authorized, that is the problem. That is only a problem if you are trying to coop the "brand". If you are raising designer dogs, its your neck or wallet. If you are registering them, you by default are bound by the rules since they control the registration of crosses.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Thank you. So then "silvers" would be the same as labradoodle etc... makes sence to me.


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## sinned (Feb 14, 2009)

gsc said:


> I believe the authority is the breed club. They are the ones who own the breed standard. This is one of the fundamental questions in this debate. IF this was a wiem cross that was not authorized, that is the problem. That is only a problem if you are trying to coop the "brand". If you are raising designer dogs, its your neck or wallet. If you are registering them, you by default are bound by the rules since they control the registration of crosses.


EXACTLY! what, if anything has the LRC issued about this?

there may be in fact 2 'silvers' we are talking about. 

it is very much conceivable to me that there exists ONE natural silver/blue/whatever due to the pure 'unadulterated' genetics,

and a SECOND designer dog, bred to mimick the true. a silver counterfeit if you will. 

dennis


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Maybe someone missed this earlier so I'll say it again____ Send me the swaps and you can have your DNA. 2 sites later and still no response. 

Again, for the record, as long as this silver dog picks up my birds and loves on my boys, I don't care who his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great- grandmother/father slept with.

You want the DNA to prove your witch hunt but fail to respond when you get the invitation. Maybe I'm missing something but, hmmmm. If your scared of the truth, don't ask the questions

I may not be a veterinarian but, I know a horses arse when I see one.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

sinned said:


> EXACTLY! what, if anything has the LRC issued about this?


The LRC does not accept the Silvers.

*SILVER LABRADORS*
There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors. The silver color is a disqualification under the Standard for the breed. The LRC does not recognize, accept or condone the sale or advertising of any Labrador as a silver Labrador. The Club opposes the practice of registering silver as chocolate.


http://www.caskie.com/INFOPRO/labrador/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

sinned said:


> EXACTLY! what, if anything has the LRC issued about this?
> 
> there may be in fact 2 'silvers' we are talking about.
> 
> ...


IF... that is a big if. If you saw an occasional silver from legitimate breeders rather that the "silver" breeders showing a mocked up pedigree.

I would say from what I have seen and read, it runs strongly in favor of the designer dog rather than a true unadulterated genetics product.


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## nanney1 (Nov 18, 2008)

Just reading with curious interest.... I was at a dog show this past weekend and watched a woman walk by with three Anatolian Shephereds. Up from the parking lot walks a family of 4, obviously there as spectators, probably to look at potential breeds for a pet. The mother approaches the lady with her Anatolians and says, "Are those Labs?". The point.... the general public doesn't really know what a lab looks like, much less the difference between field and bench labs. And a Silver Lab would simply be unique.

And the smallest Anatolian this lady had was probably 29" at the shoulder and weighed over 100 lbs. However, I have seen a yellow Lab bitch that was bigger than some Anatolians, so maybe this is what the mother was confusing them with. One of the Anatolians was sort of a silver/grey fawn.

And also, out of curiosity, a silver owner has spoken up and offered up his dog for testing. Why no responses?


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Splash_em said:


> Maybe someone missed this earlier so I'll say it again____ Send me the swaps and you can have your DNA. 2 sites later and still no response.
> 
> Again, for the record, as long as this silver dog picks up my birds and loves on my boys, I don't care who his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great- grandmother/father slept with.
> 
> ...


because that would most likely prove them wrong and no one would be able to post this same thread over and over again (I wouldn't like that because these goofy conversations are fun to read).

You want to really make them talk, register you dog as a chocolate, enter it in some FTs and smoke some of these black labs.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

My sister has a silver Lab she'd offer up for testing. But seeing as hers is an 8 y.o. spayed female rescue, never bred and never registered, she's definitely NOT interested in ponying up $125.

I'll offer up either of my two SilverFreaks (CBRs) for testing if anyone wants to pay for it. I don't have a spare $125 laying around for entering dog events or DNA testing--especially not when I owe $4000 for trying to save my dog that was hit by a car last mo. To me $125 is several cases of Oodles of Noodles and Ole Roy---I'm broke. Plus I'd be too afraid with my CBRs' DNA on file someone would come back and tell me they have silver Lab in them or that silver Labs are actually Chesadors...;-)


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> My sister has a silver Lab she'd offer up for testing. But seeing as hers is an 8 y.o. spayed female rescue, never bred and never registered, she's definitely NOT interested in ponying up $125.


Exactly! If someone with a bone to pick wants to pay to test someone else's silver Lab, well step up! If I had a silver Lab, I would probably do it, but only if the other person also submitted a sample on *their* dog. Woodpiles exist in more bloodlines than just the silver Labs.

All the storefront DNA operations out there offering this test have the same disclaimer, too. "For entertainment purposes only." Ergo, proving nothing (except some people have waaaayyy too much money)

Heck we don't need to pay $125 (or more) for that! We got plenty of free entertainment right here on RTF!

Julie, wonder what Desi (Best of Winners at 2007 NSS, Group winning sire, BIS cousin) would test as? Bet some hound would "pop". Maybe some spaniel, too. What about Airedale? There are documented crosses to all 3 in the 1930s. That's not so long ago. 

Lisa


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

I just got into a P*****g match with a silver breeder. My post about it didn't conform with the forums policy and was deleted so I will only make generalizations. 

Not so upset about the color they bred for but more from the very young dogs being used, lack of health certs all through the pedigree (obvious), and some claims they made. The breeder did state that she had DNA tests done that prove her dogs are 100% lab. who drew the blood or swabbed and who did the test i don't know. 

So if silver isn't accepted as a shade of chocholate then why is "white" or "fox red" accepted as a color of yellow. Could it not be from a little visla, or golden retriever getting crossed in?

i would love to have a "red" but every one i see for sale costs more that a black or yellow from the same litter. is that not taking advantage of the "color" sale too?


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> The LRC does not accept the Silvers.


Those be the same people who brought us wine-barrels on legs, and say the FT-breeders bred in some greyhound to get those long legs, lean looks, narrow heads, slick coats, and fast, fast, fast???

Lisa


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

gdluck said:


> So if silver isn't accepted as a shade of chocholate then why is "white" or "fox red" accepted as a color of yellow. Could it not be from a little visla, or golden retriever getting crossed in?



White and fox red aren't considered or accepted as anything other than yellow. Anything else is strictly marketing.

;-) Maybe I should start marketing my chocolates as Dark chocolate, Milk chocolate, and maybe if I cross in some pale yellow and get dudleys, I could have White chocolates too.  (note, I am kidding)

Personally, I wish they were just called brown. Or, to be fair, there should be licorice and vanilla and chocolate instead of black, yellow and chocolate.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

I think we call them chocolates because I would rather have chocolate than liver!!!


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I always thought yellow labs should be marketed as butterscotch labs


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> White and fox red aren't considered or accepted as anything other than yellow. Anything else is strictly marketing.
> 
> ;-) Maybe I should start marketing my chocolates as *Dark chocolate*, Milk chocolate, and maybe if I cross in some pale yellow and get dudleys, I could have White chocolates too.  (note, I am kidding)
> 
> Personally, I wish they were just called brown. Or, to be fair, there should be licorice and vanilla and chocolate instead of black, yellow and chocolate.


Dark chocolate is scientifically proven to be good for your health. There's a marketing phrase for you!


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Ken Newcomb said:


> I always thought yellow labs should be marketed as butterscotch labs


Then you could have hot fudge for choc!


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

I had two chocolates, named Mocha and Toffee.....and then my vet told me that techinically they were 'liver'

totally ruined their names...


other call names I considered:

chopped
beef
onions
chicken
cirrhosis
etc...

and they just didn't have the right ring.


oh, and 1st retriever, my wife is on a handful of forums with me, and she always saw people in their avatars, and assumed that just about everybody did that....

last night, she asked me point blank why I don't train with you...

after I explained that your name was Steph, and that most likely it was not you in the photo, she asked that i get 'his name' from you

I don't really want it, nor did she, but I thought you'd appreciate the story


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

marshmonster said:


> I had two chocolates, named Mocha and Toffee.....and then my vet told me that techinically they were 'liver'
> 
> totally ruined their names...
> 
> ...


Cirrhosis sit! It's kind of a mouthful!


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

gdluck said:


> So if silver isn't accepted as a shade of chocholate then why is "white" or "fox red" accepted as a color of yellow. Could it not be from a little visla, or golden retriever getting crossed in?
> 
> i would love to have a "red" but every one i see for sale costs more that a black or yellow from the same litter. is that not taking advantage of the "color" sale too?


Becuase the light cream to red colors are stated as accepted variations of yellow. Silver is not an accepted variation of chocolate. We charge what the market will bear, its called a free market. Selling Silver labs isn't the problem, its registering them and the question of purebred that is the unanswered issue in most minds. As stated earlier, they are viewed by many as the labradoodles, etc. They just claim to be something many do not believe they are.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

1st retriever said:


> Cirrhosis sit! It's kind of a mouthful!


How about foie gras?


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

gsc said:


> Becuase the light cream to red colors are stated as accepted variations of yellow. Silver is not an accepted variation of chocolate. We charge what the market will bear, its called a free market. Selling Silver labs isn't the problem, its registering them and the question of purebred that is the unanswered issue in most minds. As stated earlier, they are viewed by many as the labradoodles, etc. They just claim to be something many do not believe they are.



The DNA is waiting.....

U want it, I got. That will end the "they just claim to be" argument.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Splash_em said:


> The DNA is waiting.....
> 
> U want it, I got. That will end the "they just claim to be" argument.


Evidently not if the test is not a valid test if it is for amusement purposes only.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Splash_em said:


> The DNA is waiting.....
> 
> U want it, I got. That will end the "they just claim to be" argument.


LRC has already answered and said no. Silvers are not recognized. Balls in your court and the DNA is appearently not there yet.

Mean time, enjoy your dogs, they don't know or care.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

gsc said:


> LRC has already answered and said no. Silvers are not recognized. Balls in your court and the DNA is appearently not there yet.
> 
> Mean time, enjoy your dogs, they don't know or care.



LRC - "There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors."
Then why the other quote, also found in this thread, ... in 1987 we conducted a field survey of silver, etc. etc. and found that they should be registered as chocolate....and so on. You've all read it.

LRC - "The Club opposes the practice of registering silver as chocolate."
They oppose but do not flat out ban it. If this had been done from the begining instead of flip flopping, we would not be having this discussion.

As far as having a discussion with a silver breeder and being treated rudely. Give me a call, I'll give you every health guarantee you want and would find from any other lab breeder. I'm still striving to do better.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> LRC - "There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors."
> Then why the other quote, also found in this thread, ... in 1987 we conducted a field survey of silver, etc. etc. and found that they should be registered as chocolate....and so on. You've all read it.


The 1987 quote is from a silver website and not valid.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

tkgavette;

Where in SE South Dakota are you located? I would love to come up and see some silvers in person.....if you wouldn't mind of course.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> After the recent silver lab thread, I contacted the folks at dog-dna.com about whether or not they could identify Weimeraner genes in silver labs.
> This is their response...
> 
> _Sherri,
> ...



I'll remind you of the start of this thread. I didin't jump on this band wagon and say "Here it is boys and girls, the end to the end. Pack up your bumpers and go home."

DNA samples were asked for on 2 sites. Both sites said no one would give it and both sites were WRONG. If LFL wants the DNA, all she has to do is tell me where to send them.

Chocolates were persucuted before the whites, before the fox reds, before the silvers now. What happens if the DNA shows no weim? Lord forbid the----dare I say it---the LRC could be wrong? 

Eventually, we will put a man on the moon and elect a black president. Someday, maybe someday.

tkgavette--Good looking dog you have there in your avatar.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Splash_em said:


> Chocolates were persucuted before the whites, before the fox reds, before the silvers now. What happens if the DNA shows no weim? Lord forbid the----dare I say it---the LRC could be wrong?
> 
> Eventually, we will put a man on the moon and elect a black president. Someday, maybe someday.
> 
> tkgavette--Good looking dog you have there in your avatar.


The early labs also had brindle and tan points, they have like wise not been allowed and are hardly ever seen. What's your point?


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

gsc said:


> What's your point?


I can register the dog with the UKC.
I can register the dog with the AKC.
Didn't even know there were such things until after I had him. 

Do you truly think I care what you and the LRC think about me, my dog, or the other 100,000 like him? 

My point is:
1. As dog owners and lovers, why would someone spout off about a dog's color if you have absolutely no evidence to prove that he isn't purebred?

2. Things change with time my friend and only time will prove who is right.


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## GoodDog (Oct 15, 2007)

Here is a cool site with some interesting mismarks.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Straight from the LRC site:
LABRADOR RETRIEVER BREED STANDARD
(effective March 31, 1994)

Glad this to see that nothing has changed in the world in the last 15 years.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Splash_em said:


> Straight from the LRC site:
> LABRADOR RETRIEVER BREED STANDARD
> (effective March 31, 1994)
> 
> Glad this to see that nothing has changed in the world in the last 15 years.


I do not know how the standard was ammended in 1994, but I do know that silver has never been an acceptable color the labs. I believe that since the standard was originally created, the only acceptable colors have been black, yellow (any shade from light cream to red), and later chocolate.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

So.... why does anyone care about the LRC?

I can register, breed, and brag about a black, chocolate, or yellow with EIC and most people on here could care less. Why? Because they have always been the accepted color. (Don't mention a silver in perfect health though.)

By all means, let's protect the breed and make sure none of those healthy dogs every reproduce.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Splash_em said:


> My point is:
> 1. As dog owners and lovers, why would someone spout off about a dog's color if you have absolutely no evidence to prove that he isn't purebred?
> 
> 2. Things change with time my friend and only time will prove who is right.


1. The color is circumstantial evidience of either a mismatch or fraud. Yes, it is circumstantial, but it is not seen outside this tight group. It is not seen in the mainstream chocolate bloodlines.

2. Change to the breed standard only comes from within. You will never beat the breed club into submission, you have to join and work with in the organization to effect change. Not impossible, but...not likely on this issue. You will need champions in the organization to make it happen. The silver regardless of real pedigree just don't have the numbers to turn this around. Who knows what will happen in a 100 years, but it will not be anytime soon.

I work with a characteristic that some think is undersirable. My pedigree's are not in question, but my labs point and I love it and train with that in mind. I understand I will not bring the LRC into the concept that labs should be a versitile breed. They are what they are and I love it. End of story. They have the strongest fileld bloodlines and could compete with the best if they had a better and richer trainer. If someone doesn't like it they don't have to hunt with me. If they would like to see some fun dog work, they can come along.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

I never wanted to change the standard. Really don't care about the standard. 

I didn't buy the dog because of his color. I got him because the person he was scheduled to go home with passed away. He was housebroken and good with kids. Did I mention that I was in a cast up to my knee and it was duck season also?

I have never said that I guaranteeed the dog was 100% anything other than healthy pet. I didn't register the dog because I wasn't going to breed him. I filled his papers out last night to mail in though because my 7 year old son wants to run him in the next UKC HRC event. I think I'm creating a youthful monster.

He'll be 4 in June and has picked up about 1,500 birds. Doves, ducks, pheasants, geese, and even a few crows (ddin't care a whole lot for those). Starts the first of September and works through February. Trains all the time, to bad his trainer sucked. We're working through that though.

So do I care when someone hides behind a computer screen and talks about how bad of an injustice my dog is to the breed? Absolutely.

Call out an owner of a silver with a request for DNA then hide when I say OK--pitiful.


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## Peggy Snyder (Jan 12, 2008)

What is the difference between Liver and Chocolate? I have a liver Curly and a Chocolate lab--the colors are almost identical. I don't think that anyone is saying that if a dog is silver, fox red, charcoal, butterscotch, etc etc the dog is no good. BUT where did these colors come from and if they were mixed it puts them in the class as the "designer dogs" and for some reason people are willing to pay more for those than a "pure bred" just because they are different? AND if it floats your boat to pay more for a different color then go for it but don't be offended when someone questions if they are pure. If you are happy with your dog then you really don't have to justify the color.

I just don't feel right about introducing those colors into my breeding program but how do I know now if they have mixed colors in their line because on the pedigree they are registered as black, yellow, or chocolate. I would rather they have a special color box that is checked to I know that line has a non standard color. Not that the dogs aren't good looking dogs it's just I want to have the choice.

Wether the debate is British vs American, Field vs Pointing, Color, size, temperment, show, someone will have an issue but if you are willing to argue for a quality then you better have the proof --right or wrong?


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Looking at the AKC/LRC Labrador breed standard for color, there appears to be some precedent for calling a Lab “Silver”.

*Yellow--Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog.*
There is no mention of the ever popular (and usually more expensive) "White" Labrador. Obviously, White is just Yellow or "light cream" as the standard allows. The adjective "White" is just a descriptive marketing term for an allowable shade of Yellow.

*Chocolate--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.*
Again, No mention of the increasingly popular (and always more expensive) "Silver" Labrador. In as much as Silver is registerable as Chocolate, Silver obviously must be considered within the designation of "light" chocolate, as the standard allows. Therefore, the adjective "Silver" is just a descriptive marketing term for an allowable shade of Chocolate.

Following that line of thinking, a "Silver" could show in an AKC conformation ring...not saying it would do well with judge bias and all this controversy, but as a "Light Chocolate" it appears it would be admissible. :shock:


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Peggy Snyder said:


> What is the difference between Liver and Chocolate? I have a liver Curly and a Chocolate lab--the colors are almost identical.


They are different names for the same color gene. So they are the same color.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Ironman said:


> Looking at the AKC/LRC Labrador breed standard for color, there appears to be some precedent for calling a Lab “Silver”.
> 
> *Chocolate--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.*
> Again, No mention of the increasingly popular (and always more expensive) "Silver" Labrador. In as much as Silver is registerable as Chocolate, Silver obviously must be considered within the designation of "light" chocolate, as the standard allows. Therefore, the adjective "Silver" is just a descriptive marketing term for an allowable shade of Chocolate.
> ...


The difference, and the disscussion is regarding a gene that dilutes the bb or chocolate color. The AKC allows them to be registered as chocolates since they are bb. The dilute gene will get you tossed out of the show ring. No silver is not the same as light chocolate, light chocolate does not have the dilute gene in question.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I posted this before. 
There was an article published in RFTN that was reprinted from Pure-Bred Dogs in the AKC Gazette Jan 1988 when the Silvers were first hitting the scenes from CCK which I believe is what the LRC believes. I've known of several parties that believe the dilute does occur in Labradors but when they contacted said breeder figured out it was not naturally occurring. Once they hear the story of this breeder they realize it's not a random occurrence. This is an excerpt which does not scan well:

"Of great concern to Labrador breeders are certain "silver/gray" Labs being offered for sale by breeders who tell their customers that "silver" is a recognized Labrador Retriever color. That statement is not consistent with the standard for Labrador Retrievers, as filed with AKC by the Labrador Retriever Club, and accepted by AKC as the breed standard.
One of these Labs, seen at a field trial,had, according to Dr. Dennis L. Nelson, DVM, the "identical coloration of a Weimaraner, including the eyes, with movement also similar to a Weimaraner."
. Dr. Nelson says, "From my knowledge of genetics of coat color in dogs. the gray color as it appears in Weimaraners. Great Danes, Greyhounds and Chows, comes from. a recessive gene in the "D" locus. The Labrador breed does not possess a recessive gene at this location. The dominant "D" gene aIlows full expression of color in the "B" gene or "b" recessive gene, producing black and chocolate, respectively. The recessive "d" gene modifies or dilutes the recessive "b" gene to produce the gray color. This being the case, both parents would have to possess the "d" recessive gene either as "Dd" pair or "dd" pair. This would seem to rule out a simple mutation producing these pups and would instead indicate to me that both parents, either deliberately or not, have had blood outside the Labrador breed, introduced most likely in the form of a cross with a Weimaraner.
"No matter what the mechanism of the entry of this color, these dogs in no way conform to the standards of the breed. I think the matter requires
immediate attention in order to stop the introduction of this trait into the Labrador breed. I do not believe that it is even important to establish anything other than the fact that these Labs do not meet the standard requirements of the breed to eliminate them from registration, even though I suspect there has been a deliberate attempt to introduce outside genetics into the hreed.
"In many cases, this may' be done without a detectable change being made, but in this case, there is a definite change that is easily detectable and is highly unlikely to have resulted from random mutation."
The Labrador Club has received a great deal of correspondence from concerned people who have seen these "silver aberrations."
The Labrador Retriever Club of Greater Denver contacted the noted Denver canine geneticist, Mrs. Jo James. Mrs. James has done a great deal of research on color in the Lab. She says this silver color is nothing new: "I ran into the dilute gene when I did the original study and work on color ir, the Lab. I would sell you a Weimaraner that was "chunky," a little undersized. but had lots of bone, and would not dock his tail. You could show him for a rare "silver" Lab. The genetic background is the same. This gene had to lie dormant for a long time. Or did somebody add it again along the way? The dilute gene (recessive) is present in many breeds. Many others are suspect of carrying them. All it takes is one breeding to any of them to recover it in the Labrador."
__________________


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

OK, the whole "silver" description is strictly marketing...because it sounds cooler than gray, which is what it looks like. The color doesn't remind me at all of silver....tarnished or otherwise . It's gray. And basic gray doesn't sell, so a marketing scheme was needed....and presto! Silver sounds cool and expensive. You'd think they could have at least went with a hunting sounding name, like "gunmetal".

Acceptance will need to happen via performance (since they are DQ'd in the showring), and since the silver "breeders" don't see a need to compete or title their dogs, instead preferring to walk around with a giant sized chip on their shoulders, I'm not expecting to see any more acceptance anytime soon. Show up with a really talented "silver" and a pro trainer won't care what color it is, if it can win. 

I used to live in the same area as a big breeder of "silvers", and saw a lot of them. One belongs to a store owner, and hangs out in the store during the day. First time I saw it, I honestly thought it was a Weim without a docked tail (very narrow head and body, with houndy ears and light yellow eyes), and commented on the fact that I didn't see many Weims in the area...and got a very disgusted "This is a registered purebred silver labrador" from the owner. Of the bunch I've seen in that area, there are a multitude of problems, both structurally and dispostion-wise. Spooky and shy, and most don't look like Labs at all.

As has been mentioned earlier, the DNA breed test is for entertainment, and not proof of breed. So...take a silver lab and put an FC on it. Or MH. Or HRCH. Or at the very least show me a pedigree with a bunch of titled dogs and at least four generations of health clearances. If silvers want credibility, that would go a long way toward gaining some.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Acceptance will need to happen via performance (since they are DQ'd in the showring), and since the silver "breeders" don't see a need to compete or title their dogs, instead preferring to walk around with a giant sized chip on their shoulders, I'm not expecting to see any more acceptance anytime soon. Show up with a really talented "silver" and a pro trainer won't care what color it is, if it can win.
> 
> As has been mentioned earlier, the DNA breed test is for entertainment, and not proof of breed. So...take a silver lab and put an FC on it. Or MH. Or HRCH. Or at the very least show me a pedigree with a bunch of titled dogs and at least four generations of health clearances. If silvers want credibility, that would go a long way toward gaining some.


This is why I originally came to this site, I wanted more info etc. on the trials. I have to say I thought the "chip" was on some of the others posting here. The only time I became frustrated is when they backed me into a corner, and unwarranted harrassment.

As for Gage he has 6 FC AFC and 3 NFC AFC and 1 Ch in his 5 generation pedigree.

Tona has 12 CH in her pedigree.

I have had 2 litters with them and each time only 1 silver male. I would love if someone took the time and effort to train them all the way to a title. I want to get more into it myself, again why I originally came here.

I don't believe that every lab that is bred, has to be a titled dog though. There is a market for "backyard breeders". Some are better than others I agree, but you can't ask everyone who wants an AKC registered lab, to fork out the sum of money asked for pups from titled dogs.

You want generations of titles and health guarantees, but aren't willing to accept even one generation. I think eventually we will get there. There are just far too many out there, to ask the genie to go back into the bottle.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> As for Gage he has 6 FC AFC and 3 NFC AFC and 1 Ch in his 5 generation pedigree.


What is your dogs registered name because I see you said you received your OFA, and his pedigree isn't on your webpage and his name is not in OFA as listed on your website? Is this it TNT Gauge Savage Hunter? Is your pedigree an official pedigree from AKC or one you received from the breeder because he has no OFAed parents listed, just a half-sister that is mildly dysplastic from the same sire with no OFA?


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Yes, TNT Gauge Savage Hunter is it. That's his full registered AKC name. What do you mean, registration received from the breeder?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, TNT Gauge Savage Hunter is it. That's his full registered AKC name. What do you mean, registration received from the breeder?


Is his 5 generation pedigree an official one from AKC or one you received from the breeder?


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

I have 3 generation AKC certificate and a 5 generation AKC research online.
Still wondering what you mean by one recieved from his breeder.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I have 3 generation AKC certificate and a 5 generation AKC research online.
> Still wondering what you mean by one recieved from his breeder.


Breeders usually give out pedigrees with puppies because most puppy buyers want a pedigree along with the health certs.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Splash_em said:


> Call out an owner of a silver with a request for DNA then hide when I say OK--pitiful.


My apologies. I have been thousands of miles away from home at my sister's wedding for the past several days. I never called anyone out. Nor have I ever "hidden" from a post I have made...been a member here since Shayne was a kid LOL.

I got a DNA volunteer the day I asked for one. The owner of said volunteer is a great guy who does lots with his dog. The intent of the test is not to bash him nor any owner of a silver lab. (If you are a silver lab breeder, though, don't look for any kind words from me.)

My volunteer looks more like a lab than any "silver lab" I have seen and I do not know how sensitive the test is, so I don't really know what results I'll see with the test.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

ErinsEdge said:


> What is your dogs registered name because I see you said you received your OFA, and his pedigree isn't on your webpage and *his name is not in OFA* as listed on your website? Is this it TNT Gauge Savage Hunter? Is your pedigree an official pedigree from AKC or one you received from the breeder because he has no OFAed parents listed, just a half-sister that is mildly dysplastic from the same sire with no OFA?


I just checked and found TNT Gauge Savage Hunter listed on the OFA website with hip certification LR-180443E38M-VPI.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

gsc said:


> The difference, and the disscussion is regarding a gene that dilutes the bb or chocolate color. The AKC allows them to be registered as chocolates since they are bb. The dilute gene will get you tossed out of the show ring. No silver is not the same as light chocolate, light chocolate does not have the dilute gene in question.


 I totally agree that Silver (bbdd) is not the same as Chocolate (bbDD), however, the AKC would suggest otherwise by way of policy, in that they allow Silver to be registered as Chocolate. It is a technicality that someone is sure to exploit. I've seen it said numerous times that Silver cannot be shown in the ring, but from all I've heard and read it has yet to even be attempted, what happens when it is? A brindle chocolate is DQ'd per the standard, and so is _"Any other color or a combination of colors other than black, yellow or chocolate as described in the Standard."_ The point I am trying to bring out is that "light chocolate" is described in the standard as allowable, and Silvers are registered Chocolates and can only be, at this point, considered as such. The AKC does not recognize these Labs as Silver, which would be that part of the standard that reads _"Any other color"_. To the AKC they are just Chocolate. 
If the AKC said there was such a thing as a Silver Labrador, then one could discern a definite difference between Chocolate and Silver and keep them out of the ring, if that was their goal. But that would be giving recognition to a Labrador color that the LRC say's doesn't even exist... Catch22.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> I just checked and found TNT Gauge Savage Hunter listed on the OFA website with hip certification LR-180443E38M-VPI.


The name on his website was Gauge Savage Hunter, not TNT Gauge Savage Hunter which I found through the search feature. Also, there is no vertical pedigree on that dog meaning parents were not OFA'ed but are registered with the registration number indicated. He was saying his dog had a pedigree going back to FC and NFC and I asked where he received the pedigree and if it was an AKC 5 generation certified pedigree.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Ironman said:


> I totally agree that Silver (bbdd) is not the same as Chocolate (bbDD), however, the AKC would suggest otherwise by way of policy, in that they allow Silver to be registered as Chocolate. The AKC does not recognize these Labs as Silver, which would be that part of the standard that reads _"Any other color"_. To the AKC they are just Chocolate.
> If the AKC said there was such a thing as a Silver Labrador, then one could discern a definite difference between Chocolate and Silver and keep them out of the ring, if that was their goal. But that would be giving recognition to a Labrador color that the LRC say's doesn't even exist... Catch22.


The breed club contols the standard, and the standard only recognizes the three colors. Since they have accepted these dogs as purebred, they have to be registered as one of the three colors. It isn't AKC that says there is no silver, it is the LRC. It also isn't that they don't exist, it is that they exist outside the standard. I would think they would treat them in the show ring the same as other mismarks. If you've good a good silver, give a try and see.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

gsc said:


> The breed club contols the standard, and the standard only recognizes the three colors. Since they have accepted these dogs as purebred, they have to be registered as one of the three colors. It isn't AKC that says there is no silver, it is the LRC. It also isn't that they don't exist, it is that they exist outside the standard. I would think they would treat them in the show ring the same as other mismarks. If you've good a good silver, give a try and see.


Understood....so they are purebred Labs registered as one of the recognized standard colors, "Chocolate"...therefore they are not outside of the standard then are they? It's a technicality, I know, but until the LRC changes the breed standard to not allow registrations for silvers specifically (or add the color as to differentiate it from chocolate), they are plain and simply Chocolates. If a silver were DQ'd for being outside of the standard because of color, then the individual showing the dog would have some footing to fight that I would think, after all, the papers say the dog is purebred Chocolate and the LRC say's Chocolate is standard and can be shown. If the Chocolate color were like black and did not range from light to dark, there would be no footing...but, the color ranges light to dark....technicalities.
I believe a couple other countries have B,Y,C, and a fourth choice for registering Labs "non-standard color" or another similar designation. It is likely too late to do that here in the states though as there is more than 20 years now of established precedent classifying these Labs as Chocolate.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> My apologies.
> 
> I got a DNA volunteer the day I asked for one. The owner of said volunteer is a great guy who does lots with his dog. The intent of the test is not to bash him nor any owner of a silver lab. (If you are a silver lab breeder, though, don't look for any kind words from me.)


Remember typing this?
_Wanna donate some DNA for a test? I'm probably not going to find any donors, but I would pay for this test...
Here is the email I got from dog-dna.com.._

I will also apologize for the pitiful remark. That was inappropriate on all levels.

I see where Patrick volunteered his DNA. I responded right afterwards with no reply there or here. See where the confusion lies.

I felt called out and then....no answer for a week. 

Being from Alaska, how do you know Mr. Stone?

PS--I'm not a breeder.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Ironman said:


> Understood....so they are purebred Labs registered as one of the recognized standard colors, "Chocolate"...therefore they are not outside of the standard then are they? It's a technicality, I know, but until the LRC changes the breed standard to not allow registrations for silvers specifically (or add the color as to differentiate it from chocolate), they are plain and simply Chocolates. If a silver were DQ'd for being outside of the standard because of color, then the individual showing the dog would have some footing to fight that I would think, after all, the papers say the dog is purebred Chocolate and the LRC say's Chocolate is standard and can be shown. If the Chocolate color were like black and did not range from light to dark, there would be no footing...but, the color ranges light to dark....technicalities.
> I believe a couple other countries have B,Y,C, and a fourth choice for registering Labs "non-standard color" or another similar designation. It is likely too late to do that here in the states though as there is more than 20 years now of established precedent classifying these Labs as Chocolate.


Newsflash-people register dogs all the time that don't fit the standard and shouldn't be registered. Why? Because they can-because in the US there is no inspection by a representative of AKC for Labradors and you don't have to submit pictures. People can register mutts as purebreds and get away with it if no one challenges they are purebred and AKC to require DNA. Just because the dog is AKC registered as chocolate will not give it a "technical foothold" because the judge has eyes and can see the dog should be disqualified for color by the rules. This is most likely how all this Silver business got started but now there are too many generations of breedings to uncover the substitution of a Weim for a Lab.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Newsflash-people blah blah blah. People can register mutts as purebreds and get away with it if no one challenges they are purebred and AKC to require DNA. .



Glad to see that you comprehend that a lab with bad hips, EIC, rickety elbows, and blind as a bat can be registered as a purebred because of it's color. 

Shouldn't the health of the animal be more of a consideration than it's hair color? Maybe 20 years ago someone did breed a lab with a weim. I don't doubt it a bit. Maybe chocolate came from a chessie, don't doubt that a bit either.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

gsc said:


> Becuase the light cream to red colors are stated as accepted variations of yellow. Silver is not an accepted variation of chocolate. We charge what the market will bear, its called a free market. Selling Silver labs isn't the problem, its registering them and the question of purebred that is the unanswered issue in most minds. As stated earlier, they are viewed by many as the labradoodles, etc. They just claim to be something many do not believe they are.



So then it looks like the fight should be with the AKC that is allowing these dogs to be registered, not the breeders. The breeders are only capitalizing on a free market, "charging what the market will bear"......................

BTW I have only seen a few "silver" breeders. I had serious problems with them. 1 said he breeds them for the money. The other claims "highest quality" and clean genetics yet no dog has any health certs throughout the pedigree. In their defense they do have prelims on the 1 year olds they breed


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Anyone seen this? It seems as if the AKC is loosening up even more.
www.akc.org/mixedbreeds.
"Then beginning April 1, 2010 enrolled dogs will be eligible to compete in mixed breed classes at stand-alone AKC Agility, Obedience and Rally events.

I realize it's not entirely related, but if the AKC continues to loosen up, what efect will it have on the individual breed clubs? Is the AKC a conglomerate of these clubs, or an individual entity?
Just wondering.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

You guys that think silver Labs are all that are missing the point, which is that the BREED CLUB right now has decided that the color is not a proper Lab color. Which meant that the responsible thing to do, whether or not the color occurs naturally, is to NOT BREED them. Labs may very well have had the dilution gene at one time, it was bred out, and now you want to breed it back in? 

And please don't trot out that tired old argument that all breeds were started from mutts. While that's true, the Labrador (and incidently, all other retrievers) now have closed registries. Part of the reason the registries were closed many generations ago was because enough animals existed to provide plenty for the gene pool and those animals consistently bred true to type. Type being the standard established from the parent club.

The AKC is not the breed police. It is simply a registry that right now depends on the integrity of the individuals that register the dogs. I could register a cat as a Lab if I wanted to. Just because I can, doesn't mean I should. 

And trust me, I know of what I speak: I've been attacked and vilified including by the president of the American Chesapeake Club, for my lack of ethics in breeding specifically for color. And I will add that I have never bred for color, although the practice is as common in CBRs as it is in Labs. I just happen to have ash, which is a rare, recessive color, in the bloodlines of dogs I've had since 1982. Hell I even got slammed for describing ash as 'rare' by the internet police. And ash is fully recognized by the ACC as a perfectly acceptable color that's always existed in the breed. If I had a dime for every lecture I've gotten by the above-described internet police on how 'risky it is to breed for ash because you can get undesirable traits' or 'ash is rare because most people don't breed for it' (doh) (never mind that I've never intentionally bred for it) I would be rich.
In sum, if you have a silver Lab you like and enjoy for the retriever that it is, there's nothing wrong with that. But don't breed it or promote breeding of it, you are doing a disservice to the breed.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Splash_em said:


> I see where Patrick volunteered his DNA. I responded right afterwards with no reply there or here. See where the confusion lies.


I responded to Patrick right away and let him know that I'd be going out of town...I didn't know I needed to let everyone know I was going waaaayyy out of town for a wedding.


Splash_em said:


> I felt called out and then....no answer for a week.


Sorry you felt called out when I asked for volunteers.


Splash_em said:


> Being from Alaska, how do you know Mr. Stone?


I don't know him personally, but know alot of the folks that post over there...my trainer lives in that neck of the woods.


Splash_em said:


> PS--I'm not a breeder.


I'm glad.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

from wikipedia...

_Chocolate labradors __Jack Vanderwyk traces the origins of all Chocolate labradors listed on the LabradorNet database (some 34,000 labradors dogs of all shades) to eight original bloodlines. However the shade was not seen as a distinct colour until the 20th century; before then according to Vanderwyk, such dogs can be traced but were not registered. A degree of __crossbreeding__ with __Flatcoat__ or __Chesapeake Bay retrievers__ was also documented in the early 20th century, prior to recognition. Chocolate labradors were also well established in the early 20th century at the kennels of the Earl of Feversham, and Lady Ward of Chiltonfoliat.[51]_
_The bloodlines as traced by Vanderwyk each lead back to three black labradors in the 1880s—Buccleuch Avon (m), and his sire and dam, Malmesbury Tramp (m), and Malmesbury June (f). Morningtown Tobla is also named as an important intermediary, and according to the studbook of Buccleuch Kennels, the chocolates in that kennel came through FTW Peter of Faskally (1908).[51]_


and a little more on the history of chocolate labs...
http://www.labradornet.com/chochistory.html

I find it very interesting that chocolates were not registered..or that registering them was poo-pooed....and that there were crosses to chocolate colored dogs of other breeds...Now I know where some labs get their 'wavy' coat..LOL LOL LOL...

Breeds will change as people's needs and desires change...
All one has to do is look at the 'type' that the more popular breeds once were, and compare that 'type' to today's dogs........

There are a lot of 'field' labs that are not even close to breed standard, but are bred - why don't we bash these folks too??? LOL LOL LOL...(and BTW, I prefer a moderately built show type lab over the field labs)....

Point is, people are attracted to different....I think that eventually silver will become part of the labrador breed standard...It just makes sense for them to do so...and the fact that labs were crossed with other retriever breeds 'way back when' simply proves that it is an acceptable way to get what you want over the long term....

Juli


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> "I'm not a breeder."
> 
> I'm glad.


So what's the best Labrador retriever, the CH or the FC?
Which one meets the LRC's standard better?
And I want to make sure I get this perfectly clear: Anyone who wants an AKC registered Lab should, no MUST, buy it from puppies that have come from titled dogs, with generations of clearances. Umm which title is the right one again? Cost?!?$
I know I'm on the wrong site for these questions.
Where is the "Average Joe" Lab lovers site at? 
I realize now this site in not for people who breed dogs that are wanted and loved, and even shown off a little. I thought it was for people who wanted info on training retrievers "retrievertraining.net" regardless of breed, color, religious affiliation, sexual orientation etc...
People can't even get past these things in life, why would their dogs be any different? (I must be in a bad mood)

My point is *everyone* on here cites, and waves the breed standard over their head, when it suites them. Then tosses it in the trash when it doesn't.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

> You guys that think silver Labs are all that are missing the point, which is that the breed club RIGHT NOW has decided that the color is not a proper Lab color


So should we not breed labs who are too tall, don't have an otter tail, who's heads aren't blocky etc.. because they are also not in the standard set by the parent club. If people want to breed silvers what impact does that have on general lab population? Should all non-conforming dogs be culled for the benefit of the breed. If the mother club said no more black labs should we neuter them all and let them die off. Or pursue changes to the standard to allow them in. (see Juli's post on chocolate above) How is breeding silvers (assuming they are all lab) doing a disservice to the breed? I still fail to see what impact that has.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm just glad mine will still get the fish out of the net for me.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> So what's the best Labrador retriever, the CH or the FC?
> Which one meets the LRC's standard better?
> And I want to make sure I get this perfectly clear: Anyone who wants an AKC registered Lab should, no MUST, buy it from puppies that have come from titled dogs, with generations of clearances. Umm which title is the right one again? Cost?!?$
> I know I'm on the wrong site for these questions.
> ...


 
you are right on all things said. BUT. this is a training board so will will get a slant from that side. Same as you would for a vegan site or a cat site or a ford vs chevy etc.

HOWEVER. If you look past the slants and want some good training info it can be found here. There are some very experienced folk here. Take what you want and leave the rest.


i suggest you start a post about the need to FF.:razz:


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Bud said:


> So should we not breed labs who are too tall, don't have an otter tail, who's heads aren't blocky etc.. because they are also not in the standard set by the parent club. If people want to breed silvers what impact does that have on general lab population? Should all non-conforming dogs be culled for the benefit of the breed. If the mother club said no more black labs should we neuter them all and let them die off. Or pursue changes to the standard to allow them in. (see Juli's post on chocolate above) How is breeding silvers (assuming they are all lab) doing a disservice to the breed? I still fail to see what impact that has.


It is not generally considered to be good breeding policy to breed out on the fringes of the standard, so no, we shouldn't breed too tall, too short, too round, etc. That said, when you breed, the breeding pair should bring something of value to the table. If you are only breeding the color, and the color is not allowed, you aren't bringing anything to the table. The issues you start with are know variations of the breed type. The color is not.

A better question to ask is what does this color do to improve the breed? If you can make your case, and gain approval to start the process to bring this color into the breed, then good for you. The instances of chocolate sited above are from breeder's of the breed, the developers so to speak. And yes, there were differences of opinion. These are the ones who define the breed. Those who are breeding silvers are not part of the group, but are from the outside trying to force change for what others own. Again, good luck selling it.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

gsc said:


> A better question to ask is what does this color do to improve the breed? If you can make your case, and gain approval to start the process to bring this color into the breed, then good for you.


This gets back to my original point from other threads.
I apologize for not having these pictures, but you can bet my wife will have the camera out this fall.
1. While hunting geese; Gage completely blends in to picked, soybeans, corn, dormant grasses and trees.
2. While hunting duck; Gage completely blends in to dormant reeds.
3. While hunting pheasant; well any color will do here!

I think there is more of a place for him in the hunting community than white for sure. That is why I can not fault him for color. That is why I advocate this color, charcoal too. Silver does not hinder the breed from its hunting foundation, and I think it helps in certain cases.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

If silver were a natural color for labs, i wouldn't have a problem with it, but it is not. If you like silver, you should have gotten a weim.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

> It is not generally considered to be good breeding policy to breed out on the fringes of the standard, so no, we shouldn't breed too tall, too short, too round, etc


Yet we know that especially in the hunting/trialing world that is one of the last things looked at if at all. If you have a top running dog NFC ie that does not have an "otter tail" are people going to not breed to it. Heck no, especially if that dog has other desirable traits, and passes them on. So we then have a dog that is perpetuating the loss of the otter tail. Yet do we go up in arms about no, we may actually even indirectly promote it by touting it's line and accomplishments. And in the show line it seems the standard is being disregarded in some ways, and most do not consider the dog's ability to perform. 

What does the color bring to the table? I don't know what's your criteria is it viewed from the Breed Clubs standard or do you view it from it's performance ability, or how easily you can fatten it up before you enter the show ring. 

True breeders of silvers may have been it for money, but so are a lot of breeders. If breeding was solely to better the breed, and by making it better you are following the standard set by the parent club, then you have to stop breeding non-conforming dogs despite their abilities and all conformation labs that won't perform whole-heartedly.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Can you or anyone on here that has such a disdain for silvers please post up your Genetic Research diploma? Who says is it not natural?. The dark side says absolutely not. The lighter side says absolutely it is. Who is right?

I fully understand your place on the silvers, you don't like them.

I fully understand my place on my UKC/AKC registerable "chocalate" lab, love him like one of my children.

My point is, which website do you read to make your informed decision from?


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

gsc said:


> ....The issues you start with are know variations of the breed type. The color is not.


 Is a single coat and a whip tail a known variation? I must have missed that in the standard. Statements made about many Field (and show) Labs being just as, or more, out of standard as Silver are not with out merit.



gsc said:


> A better question to ask is what does this color do to improve the breed? If you can make your case, and gain approval to start the process to bring this color into the breed, then good for you...


 There is a reason the phrase "shade of gray" is applied to things that are not clear and discernable. Gray is natures premium solid color all environment camouflage. From a hunting perspective, you couldn't ask for much better..okay, maybe Real Tree....now there is an idea for a new Lab breeding project, any takers?


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

There are shades of yellow and chocolate that will blend as well, silver brings nothing new.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Splash_em said:


> My point is, which website do you read to make your informed decision from?


LRC, the only one that counts.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> If silver were a natural color for labs, i wouldn't have a problem with it, but it is not. If you like silver, you should have gotten a weim.


Can someone else who gets up at 4:00 am, drives 1 or 2 hours to their favorite duck pond. Sets decoys and sits in 4"-6" of water with an 1/8" layer of ice on it waiting for the sun to come up. Hunt till you get your limit or arround noon, then load up drive to your favorite upland game "pheasant" hunting spot. It's now 80+ degrees or so, hunt till limit or sundown. Maybe head to the nearest wattering hole if you didn't get your limit of green heads. Drive home, light the campfire, have a few drinks with your buds. With you buddy now sleeping at your feet, or fetching empty beer cans that miss the garbage can. Catch a few winks and then get up the next morning to do it all over again. Probably not the drinks this time since you have to work in the morning.

Just want someone else to answer this one, so it doesn't seem like I'm biassed to color.

There is only 1 other breed I would even attempt this with, a Chessie.
Not to mention the anxiety issues etc. of Weims. No offense! My Lab meets me every morning with a sence of anticipation, and a gleem in his eye when he sees me in camo. If no camo, he's just as happy to play with the kids or get his belly rubbed. This is a labs life, and I think it would kill most others. Again, no offense intended


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

gsc said:


> LRC, the only one that counts.


You definately have a high opinion of something or someone in the LRC. If the LRC is so high and almighty, please have them send a notice to the AKC/UKC and have them stop all registration of silvers. Sorry, probably not gonna happen.

Yellow- Sticks out like a sore thumb in flooded timber. Always put on a vest regardless to camo.

Black- Burn them up on a dove field in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida in the early season.

Chocalate- Hmmm...just don't like em. No offense to any chocalate owners.

Silver- Gotta love them.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Splash_em said:


> You definately have a high opinion of something or someone in the LRC.


Nope, I disagree with them on a number of issues, they just own the breed. Their call not mine. If you want to play in their ball park you gotta follow their rules. One of the reason's I don't show any more.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Splash_em said:


> You definately have a high opinion of something or someone in the LRC. If the LRC is so high and almighty, please have them send a notice to the AKC/UKC and have them stop all registration of silvers. Sorry, probably not gonna happen.
> 
> Yellow- Sticks out like a sore thumb in flooded timber. Always put on a vest regardless to camo.
> 
> ...


The AKC doesn't register SILVER, they register CHOCOLATE, hence, the dog in your avatar is a chocolate.

To me, a lab is a lab, but it's the deceptive marketing that annoys me. According to AKC and LRC, silver is a shade (granted, undesirable) of chocolate, therefore, the dogs should be sold as chocolates, not marketed at rare and more valuable. To be perfectly honest, I feel the same way about people who breed "fox red labs" (which I really like) just for the color. :2c:


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Fowl Play WA said:


> The AKC doesn't register SILVER, they register CHOCOLATE, hence, the dog in your avatar is a chocolate.
> 
> To me, a lab is a lab, but it's the deceptive marketing that annoys me. According to AKC and LRC, silver is a shade (granted, undesirable) of chocolate, therefore, the dogs should be sold as chocolates, not marketed at rare and more valuable. To be perfectly honest, I feel the same way about people who breed "fox red labs" (which I really like) just for the color. :2c:



I guess I ran across the breeder that wasn't in it for the money. I was told, prior to purchase, that the dog was silver factored and registered as chocolate. No more money for him being rare. Here's the website for the bashers, here's the website for the supporters, read them both and make up your own mind. 

I did and bought the dog. Afterwards, I have read about the prices people are trying to get for the silvers and the fox reds (in cases). I wouldn't spend $1000 ~ $1500 on a dog regardless of his/her color.

That is why I have such a strong opinion for the dog. I wasn't suckered into buying him on a gimmick or false pretenses. I bought him because he was different and I knew that going into the relationship.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Just curious,
When one registers his silver puppy what color do you put it under.?

If you register it as chocolate and its not ,,then isn't that giving false info and wouldn't the AKC revoke the application

Pete


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Silvers are registered as chocolate.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Pete said:


> Just curious,
> When one registers his silver puppy what color do you put it under.?
> 
> If you register it as chocolate and its not ,,then isn't that giving false info and wouldn't the AKC revoke the application
> Pete


They are registered Chocolate because they are Chocolate. Nothing false about that.

As for who "owns the breed", if anybody does it would be the Labrador Retriever Club in the UK http://www.thelabradorretrieverclub.com/. Reading breeder comments from the UK suggests they are not happy with what the US LRC has done to "their breed" changing the standard and all....but that is a whole other ball of wax.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Splash_em said:


> I guess I ran across the breeder that wasn't in it for the money. I was told, prior to purchase, that the dog was silver factored and registered as chocolate. No more money for him being rare. Here's the website for the bashers, here's the website for the supporters, read them both and make up your own mind.
> 
> I did and bought the dog. Afterwards, I have read about the prices people are trying to get for the silvers and the fox reds (in cases). I wouldn't spend $1000 ~ $1500 on a dog regardless of his/her color.
> 
> That is why I have such a strong opinion for the dog. I wasn't suckered into buying him on a gimmick or false pretenses. I bought him because he was different and I knew that going into the relationship.



Nice looking dog in your avatar...What's his name? Skeletor?

just saying,


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

I LOVE MT ASH DOGS


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Ironman said:


> They are registered Chocolate because they are Chocolate. Nothing false about that.


So are they bbdd or B_dd?
When bred to a chocolate what color are the puppies? Black or chocolate? That will tell you if "silver" labs are actually "chocolate" or not. Since they are clearly not BROWN I don't see how you can call them CHOCOLATE. 
Do you call bbee yellow with brown pigment a chocolate?

--Anney


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Splash_em said:


> I guess I ran across the breeder that wasn't in it for the money. I was told, prior to purchase, that the dog was silver factored and registered as chocolate. No more money for him being rare. Here's the website for the bashers, here's the website for the supporters, read them both and make up your own mind.
> 
> I did and bought the dog. Afterwards, I have read about the prices people are trying to get for the silvers and the fox reds (in cases). I wouldn't spend $1000 ~ $1500 on a dog regardless of his/her color.
> 
> That is why I have such a strong opinion for the dog. I wasn't suckered into buying him on a gimmick or false pretenses. I bought him because he was different and I knew that going into the relationship.


I was wondering if your dog has all the health clearances. If not, and you plan to breed, will you be having things checked? I figure if you like your dog, thats all that matters, but if you're going to breed hopefully everything is clear...


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

Bud said:


> Yet we know that especially in the hunting/trialing world that is one of the last things looked at if at all. If you have a top running dog NFC ie that does not have an "otter tail" are people going to not breed to it. Heck no, especially if that dog has other desirable traits, and passes them on. So we then have a dog that is perpetuating the loss of the otter tail. Yet do we go up in arms about no, we may actually even indirectly promote it by touting it's line and accomplishments. And in the show line it seems the standard is being disregarded in some ways, and most do not consider the dog's ability to perform.
> 
> What does the color bring to the table? I don't know what's your criteria is it viewed from the Breed Clubs standard or do you view it from it's performance ability, or how easily you can fatten it up before you enter the show ring.
> 
> True breeders of silvers may have been it for money, but so are a lot of breeders. If breeding was solely to better the breed, and by making it better you are following the standard set by the parent club, then you have to stop breeding non-conforming dogs despite their abilities and all conformation labs that won't perform whole-heartedly.


We have a winner!

at the trial this past weekend i watched several dogs run that looked like a greyhound/husky cross. Fluffy curly tail, long narrow face, deep rib cage, and very tucked gut. It musta had papers that said it was a lab, but the only lab traits i saw was a desire to retrieve and it was all black. If that dog titles i'm sure many will breed to it.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Furball said:


> So are they bbdd or B_dd?
> When bred to a chocolate what color are the puppies? Black or chocolate? That will tell you if "silver" labs are actually "chocolate" or not. Since they are clearly not BROWN I don't see how you can call them CHOCOLATE.
> Do you call bbee yellow with brown pigment a chocolate?
> 
> --Anney



Silver Labs are bbdd.

B_dd would be blue, and generally would be hard to distinguish as adults from black. Same as with Dobes and Poodles. Hard to tell a blue from a black, unless you are an expert in the color.

Actually, depends on the depth of the brown as to whether a silver looks brown as an adult. Far too many chocolates of a washed-out hue to begin with. Use these in a "silver" breeding program, and the pups will look "silver" as adults. Deeper browns hide the dilution better, and the dogs just look light brown as adults. I have an ash Chessie bitch who only goes "silver" at certain times of the year. The rest of the time, she just looks light brown.

One way to get an *extremely* light yellow is through the dd double recessive as well. Not to throw any gasoline on the fire, but the "White Labs" rage of the 1980's may have contributed to an upswing in the d allele frequency as well. Or not. 

Lisa


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

I just want to know has any of you "silvers" ponied up the blood sample yet?

All black and only black. Or yellow or chocolate. Silver is the color of my wifes car.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete*
> _Just curious,
> When one registers his silver puppy what color do you put it under.?
> ...


So the dog in tkgavettes avatar is chocolate in some way.?
I'm curious how we know that siver is a color variation of chocolate.


Rip Vanwinkle


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Hey Rip,
I can answer that because I have a few of those Silverfreaks my own self. Except mine are nappy.....;-) and they are Chesapeakes, not Labs, where the color is perfectly acceptable. The silver labs really are chocolates, but the color is diluted by a separate gene than the actual coat color gene. Somewhere else in this thread is a better scientific explanation of the genetics, but to dumb it down for the rest of us (lowest common denominator): the dilution gene modifies the color gene. It dilutes, or changes, brown to ash or silver and black to charcoal and yellow to pale cream/white.

The dilution gene is recessive, so one won't do it; it takes a pair--one from each parent--of the genes to change the base color of the coat so it's visible. So, the parents either have to be the dilute color itself, which is obvious, or 'carrier' of the dilution gene. The gene can lurk unnoticed for generations until the carrier is bred to another carrier or a dog that has both genes (dilute color). 

Of the dogs below, all related, the brown female on left carried the dilution gene as does her dam, the red brown female in the middle. Both produced dilute (ash) pups.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

"It dilutes, or changes, brown to ash or silver and black to charcoal and yellow to pale cream/white."

so therefore this dilution gene HAS been in labs for some time ....given the fairly common 'white' labs you see out and about..
Juli


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

sky_view said:


> "It dilutes, or changes, brown to ash or silver and black to charcoal and yellow to pale cream/white."
> 
> so therefore this dilution gene HAS been in labs for some time ....given the fairly common 'white' labs you see out and about..
> Juli


Hard to say. You can get "white" Labs several different ways, genetically speaking, just as you can get light deadgrass Chessies at least 4 different ways.

But yes, the d dilution gene does occur in the Lab breed naturally. It comes down from the original St. John's dog, and still occurs in Newfs and related breeds today.

Lisa


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Silver Labs are bbdd.
> 
> B_dd would be blue, and generally would be hard to distinguish as adults from black. Same as with Dobes and Poodles. Hard to tell a blue from a black, unless you are an expert in the color.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. There are other breeds that are B_dd though that are very easy to tell apart from their black counterparts. Any greyhound type breed, for example, or Neo mastiffs, are clearly blue, but not blue fawn (bbdd) or black. From the strange ashy color of these silver labs however I do not doubt that they are bbdd for the most part.
However I will disagree with you on recessive dd contributing to cream/white labs (yellow). The D allele affects only eumelanin which is BLACK or CHOCOLATE pigment. RED (yellow) pigment is phaeomelanin and is NOT affected by either the B or D locus. This is why we can have brown-pigmented yellow labs, they are bbee but it only affects the skin color, NOT the color of the yellow. 
Recessive E yellow is affected by the C (chinchilla) gene which absolutely is in play with the "english creme" very light colored yellow labs and goldens. They look washed out or buff color because the chinchilla C locus dilutes PHAEOMELANIN but NOT eumelanin. Some huskies and other breeds are C recessive and gives them the interesting color of "white" sable -- white coat with black tips, since the recessive C allele has washed out the gold phaeomelanin of the coat but left the black sabling tips undiluted.
There are also an unknown number of modifier genes that contribute the intensity of color of yellow labs and goldens. They are like toggles that add pigment up or down. So your "white" yellow lab, golden retriever, "fox red" yellow lab and mahogany Irish setter are all the same color genetically (ee) with modifier genes dictating the hue of gold.
I really would like to see a silver lab in person, if nothing else to ease my curiosity about them!
--Anney


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Scott Greenwood said:


> I just want to know has any of you "silvers" ponied up the blood sample yet?
> 
> All black and only black. Or yellow or chocolate. Silver is the color of my wifes car.


Absolutely, the samples have been arranged for. They are skin though, not blood. (Not from my dog I may add)


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Furball said:


> I really would like to see a silver lab in person, if nothing else to ease my curiosity about them!
> --Anney



Anytime you are around the Mobile/Pensacola area, I'll be glad to come and meet you.

Let me know when.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

The dilution caused by the d gene does not alter the actual color or pigment of the dog. The affect is on the way that normal colored pigment is distributed in the hair shaft. With dilute coats, the pigment is clumped and kind of randomly distributed in the hair resulting in a mix of pigmented and non-pigmented areas. This results in absorption and reflection of light in such a way that the resulting affect from afar is graying. But, at its foundation, the pigment color is still chocolate, thus, they are chocolate and registered correctly as such.....being that they are not dark in their shade, but extremely light, the can only be "light chocolates" as the standard allows.

The assessment of phaeomelanin and eumelenin being acted upon, or not, by the Mlph gene, "d", is not correct. the "d" gene does influence phaeomelanin, but it is not as easily seen because the phaeomelanin is a light pigment, and light pigment and non-pigmented hair both look very light. Yellows are a very likely source for the place where the dilution gene has been carried for generations. With a heterozygous carrier, one would not know it was there as with any color...and with a homozygous dilute, the yellow would be within the accepted variance of yellow and not noticeable. The skin of the nose might likely be lighter, but that could be attributed to snow nose and not even thought of as a dilution. It is likely that full dilute labs have been around for the history of the breed, just not recognized for what they were in that they were just a shade of yellow.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Maybe these folks can help.

www.wisdompanel.com

Found thier flyer at my vet today.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Furball said:


> So are they bbdd or B_dd?
> When bred to a chocolate what color are the puppies? Black or chocolate? That will tell you if "silver" labs are actually "chocolate" or not. Since they are clearly not BROWN I don't see how you can call them CHOCOLATE.
> Do you call bbee yellow with brown pigment a chocolate?
> 
> --Anney


Here are a few pictures, sorry if they are too big I'm not sure how to resize them.

Gage has been bred to another silver female twice each time 10+ puppies all silver. He has been bred to Tona twice, she is a "silver factored" black. Dad was silver and mom was black.








First litter had 4 chocolate, 1 black, 1 charcoal, and 1 silver.








Second litter had 4 charcoal, 2 chocolate, 1 black, and 1 silver.

Here's a picture that shows the 2 shades of the 2 chocolate pups from the last litter.








As far as color changes as they age, here is a pic of gage as a pup and then arround 2 years old.

















Here is a picture of Bristol, also considered a "silver" female, with the silver pup from the last litter.









Both charcoal boys in the last litter had a white spot on their chest.
My avatar is the silver male from my first litter.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this by the silver breeders, BUT, in both of those pictures of the litters, I don't really see silver. I do see a variation of chocolate though. The two that are "charcoal" still look like black to me, just not as vivid.:2c: I really do see chocolate in the "silvers".


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Julie


I think the ash colored chessies are the result of a black dog in the wood pile somewhere


Rip


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

Fowl Play WA said:


> I'm sure I'll get flamed for this by the silver breeders, BUT, in both of those pictures of the litters, I don't really see silver. I do see a variation of chocolate though. The two that are "charcoal" still look like black to me, just not as vivid.:2c: I really do see chocolate in the "silvers".


But "charcoal" IS a black, but a black with 2 copies of the Dilute gene...and "silver" IS a chocolate, but a chocolate with 2 copies of the Dilute gene. Not sure why people are having such a hard time wrapping their heads around this? It is pretty basic genetics! It is better marketing and less of a mouthful to say Charcoal instead of Dilute Black, and Silver instead of Dilute Chocolate.

My Ash Chesapeake (as has been stated, Ash is same Dilute gene as in Silver/Charcoal labs...she is genetically a brown (same as Chocolate in labs), just with 2 copies of Dilute) She is not pure bright silver grey. She is more of a light brownish-grey. She camoflages beautifully with cement  as well as in the field. I have seen pics of some Dilutes that are a lighter, more silvery shade than she is...all that means is they have a lighter shade brown than she does.

It is hard to capture the true shade of a dilute though. She looks much browner in some pictures, and much more silvery in others.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Tollwest, what I'm saying is that I don't see a designer color, I see a regular old lab color. Just a different variation like the yellows have. I don't see anything special. 

I know it's marketing, but to me, it's not even diluted, it's black and chocolate. Plain and simple.

By the way, cute chessie pup.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Fowl Play WA said:


> I'm sure I'll get flamed for this by the silver breeders, BUT, in both of those pictures of the litters, I don't really see silver. I do see a variation of chocolate though. The two that are "charcoal" still look like black to me, just not as vivid.:2c: I really do see chocolate in the "silvers".


 I think most Silver breeders would agree with you, the AKC does (LRC used to). 
IF people want this controversy to go away, they should encourage and let "Silvers" show as the Chocolates they are. This kind of acceptance totally defuses the controversy, Silver = Chocolate, end of story. If, as has been suggested, a "Silver" is DQ'd in the ring for being an "other color", then I could see why there would be a push to designate Silver its own color by those who champion it. Decades of directed breeding and ever-increasing numbers and popularity tell you they are not going to ever go away. They will either end up accepted "Chocolates", or accepted "Silvers". 

Presently, and likely always, these lighter Chocolates will be marketed as "Silver", just as some Yellows, are, and will always be marketed as "Fox Red". Both are correct colors in the breed (Chocolate and Yellow), both are modified by another gene (D and C, respectively).


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

OK, so if the silver "shade" of chocolate has always been there naturally, why did it just "pop up" in a single litter in the 1950's? The fox red "shade" of yellows has been around since the breed's inception.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

I have an owner of a "Silver Lab" that would be willing to have a DNA test done on his dog if we would pay for it. He says the dog is registered as a Choco, but looks like a Weim. in many ways.


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## Cindy Read (Nov 13, 2004)

Does anyone know if the silver is really a delute black gene or if that is possibility? This thought came to me when looking at the pictues of the litter with the multiple colors and got me thinking. Because of the very light yellow gene could it delute the black. If you mix white paint to black you will delute it to gray (silver) so why wouldn't it work in dogs? The eye color change would also come about with the genes being deluted. 


Cindy R.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> OK, so if the silver "shade" of chocolate has always been there naturally, why did it just "pop up" in a single litter in the 1950's? The fox red "shade" of yellows has been around since the breed's inception.


 
I'm willing to bet it didn't...As LVL stated the st john's dog, which carried this dilution gene, is a part of the labrador history ...Also, the post in which it was pointed out that labs - esp choc labs - were bred with other breeds (chessies being one) in the early part of the century could back up introduction of this gene into the labrador gene pool. 

not only that, culling was a big part of breeding at that time...puppy had certain disqualifying attributes and it was conveniently gotten rid of..but that doesn't mean the recessive gene wasn't passed along....

I have seen more than one 'purebred' lab with a very 'chessie' like coat - very oily with undercoat with some waves along the back like a chessie. maybe you all's labs aren't as pure as you'd like to believe......;-);-);-)

Juli


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

sky_view said:


> not only that, culling was a big part of breeding at that time...puppy had certain disqualifying attributes and it was conveniently gotten rid of..but that doesn't mean the recessive gene wasn't passed along....


So where did the gene go for all those decades?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

who knows? Is there any way of keeping track of every single dog and every single breeder over the last 100 yrs? 

think about odd colored wildlife...People trap pine marten - 100's of them up here, every once in a while a white footed marten gets caught....maybe one in every 500 marten has white feet or toes....maybe even less chance than that...
same for pie-bald moose...haven't seen many of those, but they do exist....gene mutations? recessive genes?....

I am not saying that people haven't bred weims or other breeds to produce the silver labs...just saying that there is no way to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt, that this recessive gene has been here all along (or not)....

devil's advocate, I guess. 

Juli


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## Buster Brown (Oct 29, 2007)

Does anyone know where I could find a good labradoodle with and FC/AFC? If I can't find one I may opt to get a silver lab.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrador_Retriever

<<Jack Vanderwyk traces the origins of all Chocolate labradors listed on the LabradorNet database (some 34,000 labradors dogs of all shades) to eight original bloodlines. However the shade was not seen as a distinct colour until the 20th century; before then according to Vanderwyk, *such dogs can be **traced but were not registered*. A degree of crossbreeding with Flatcoat or Chesapeake Bay retrievers was also documented in the early 20th century, prior to recognition. Chocolate labradors were also well established in the early 20th century at the kennels of the Earl of Feversham, and Lady Ward of Chiltonfoliat.[51]

The bloodlines as traced by Vanderwyk each lead back to three black labradors in the 1880s—Buccleuch Avon (m), and his sire and dam, Malmesbury Tramp (m), and Malmesbury June (f). Morningtown Tobla is also named as an important intermediary, and according to the studbook of Buccleuch Kennels, the chocolates in that kennel came through FTW Peter of Faskally (1908).[51]>>

It is a known fact that chocolates were crossbred with chessies, chessies produce a gorgeous offspring called ASH, and now Silvers are registered as chocolate.

I don't think they are going away.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

sky_view said:


> I am not saying that people haven't bred weims or other breeds to produce the silver labs...just saying that there is no way to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt, that this recessive gene has been here all along (or not)....
> 
> devil's advocate, I guess.
> 
> Juli


I must confess I don't have a problem with the color per se, it is the inablity to get over the unauthorized outcross hurdle (read suspicion) the keeps causing stubbed toes.


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Tollwest, what I'm saying is that I don't see a designer color, I see a regular old lab color. Just a different variation like the yellows have. I don't see anything special.
> 
> I know it's marketing, but to me, it's not even diluted, it's black and chocolate. Plain and simple.
> 
> By the way, cute chessie pup.


So you look at my Ash chessie puppy and thinks she looks chocolate??? LOL She doesn't look diluted to you? She is nowhere near the color of my dark brown (chocolate) boy. Not the best pic but both my Ash and brown pups are in this pic along with a few red rats...


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Tollwest said:


> So you look at my Ash chessie puppy and thinks she looks chocolate??? LOL She doesn't look diluted to you? She is nowhere near the color of my dark brown (chocolate) boy. Not the best pic but both my Ash and brown pups are in this pic along with a few red rats...


Chessies and labs are so different. I grew up with Chessies, when I was little we had the ashen/dead grass ones running around, and in middle school we had the darkest chocolate colored one I've seen. What I'm saying is that I DO NOT see silver, I see a shade of brown. Sure, it's not as dark as Stryke, but it's still a shade of brown in my eyes.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

The ash color in Chesapeakes is very obvious at birth as the pups look really silver and don't have any masking or shading.








As they grow up many do end up looking light brown (dilute brown) but most will appear silvery in certain lights. In fact it's a hard color to photograph. My last litter had 5 brown and 5 ash. The females are pictured above at a couple days old. The two girls on the left are shown below, at almost 4 mos. photo taken 2 days ago.


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## kb27_99 (Sep 28, 2006)

sky_view said:


> I have seen more than one 'purebred' lab with a very 'chessie' like coat - very oily with undercoat with some waves along the back like a chessie. maybe you all's labs aren't as pure as you'd like to believe......;-);-);-)
> 
> Juli



Wow Juli you just discribed my oldest choco dog!


Cheers,

Kevin


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> After the recent silver lab thread, I contacted the folks at dog-dna.com about whether or not they could identify Weimeraner genes in silver labs.


"Silver" is not a recent mutation, and does not come from a Weim. It originally came from a Norwegian Elkhound cross that was done back about 1940, and which is documented in Mary Roslin-William's first book. "Silver" puppies have cropped up occasionally ever since (which is to be expected when you've got a grey dog in the ancestry). Helen Warwick mentions having one in her book, that would have been born back around 1960. Someone who bred a few litters in NJ back in the 1960s also told me that she once produced a "grey" puppy.

In modern pedigrees, any line can produce it that goes back to the original Poppleton and Kinley lines (I won't start a flame war by ID'ing the Very Famous English Show-bred Litter that is doubled up in ALL the current "silver" pedigrees). I have personally seen two "silver" puppies sired by big-name studs of the 1970s. (It can also occur in yellows -- they have grey shading rather than yellow/tan/red, and have grey noses and eyes.)

While it wouldn't surprise me if some unethical twit has done a Weim cross since the "silvers" became a moneymaker, that is NOT where the colour originally came from. And having collected every "silver" pedigree I can find, I have yet to see a "silver" pedigree that had unexpected breeding behind it -- as one one would see IF Weims were being used.

That some of the "silvers" are houndy looking is also _not_ due to a Weim -- it comes from a particular (mostly English show-bred) bitch of the 1970s. Dudly Culo (whom I've seen in person) was descended from her, and was her spitting image from nose to tail, including her poor head and ears. Since most of the current "silvers" are heavily linebred on Dudly Culo and his sisters, it should surprise no one that this poor type became exaggerated and set into the current "silver" lines.

Back in the 1970s/80s I had descendants (including a daughter) of this same bitch, and other closely-related dogs. While I never got a true "silver" puppy from them, many of the chocolates were of a peculiar "cardboard box" shade, or had a "black cast" as seen from a distance, which in retrospect I think indicated that they carried for the dilute factor.

I do think it is beyond stupid that AKC registers "silvers" as "chocolate". That's like registering fawn Dobermans as "red" -- fawn IS dilute red genetically, but that doesn't make it "a shade of red". AKC's insistence on registering "silvers" as "chocolate" makes it impossible to keep track of the colour, other than by chasing down pedigrees from random sources, and hoping you don't miss any.


Probably repeating myself for the 500th time, but there it is... 


Ky Moffet, Longplain Kennels Reg'd.
old-fashioned classic Labs since 1969
home of 37 *fieldbred* UKC Champions including
Best In Show-GRCH Longplain Tessera (2008 UKC #4 Lab)
http://www.longplain.com
http://www.offworldpress.com


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Reziac said:


> "Silver" is not a recent mutation, and does not come from a Weim. It originally came from a Norwegian Elkhound cross that was done back about 1940, and which is documented in Mary Roslin-William's first book. "Silver" puppies have cropped up occasionally ever since (which is to be expected when you've got a grey dog in the ancestry). Helen Warwick mentions having one in her book, that would have been born back around 1960. Someone who bred a few litters in NJ back in the 1960s also told me that she once produced a "grey" puppy.
> 
> In modern pedigrees, any line can produce it that goes back to the original Poppleton and Kinley lines (I won't start a flame war by ID'ing the Very Famous English Show-bred Litter that is doubled up in ALL the current "silver" pedigrees). I have personally seen two "silver" puppies sired by big-name studs of the 1970s. (It can also occur in yellows -- they have grey shading rather than yellow/tan/red, and have grey noses and eyes.)
> 
> ...


I bet no one ever thought it was Norwegian Elkhound! I know I didn't!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

labs were also originally mixed with flatcoats, goldens, and pointers (guess we know where the houndy look and pointing came from!) in order to promote coat, hunting ability, and health traits.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

firehouselabs said:


> labs were also originally mixed with flatcoats, goldens, and pointers (guess we know where the houndy look and pointing came from!) in order to promote coat, hunting ability, and health traits.


The fact is, most of our breeds are not so simon-pure as we'd like to believe.

Until the early 1900s, crossbreedings were commonly used to gain desired traits or to correct faults. Also, as Mary Roslin-Williams writes, during WW2 many British kennels had to destroy breeding stock for lack of meat (commercial dog food didn't yet exist), and what they kept was sometimes bred to anything with legs to continue the line, and registered as being sired by a dead dog.

Old-old-timers would tell you flat-out that a black Pointer was imported from England and used on Labs in the U.S., to "improve style" which at the time was kinda in the dumps. This has been written about in a couple breed history books as well. And there are physical and behavioural clues, if you know what to look for. The most notable added trait was a tendency to bolt under pressure.

I don't know of any historical Golden/Lab crosses (there may be one in more modern times) and there are none in the early stud books either -- but until about 1930 there were occasional Flatcoats in Lab pedigrees (and v.v.) There are two lines where I am pretty sure of a Chessie cross, probably in the 1950s. In British fieldbred Labs, there's evidence of pointer, terrier, and bulldog crosses within the past few decades. There's probably a terrier in one old American fieldtrial line too. Rottweiler and Flatcoat crosses done in the 1950s are behind all modern English show lines. There are probably others I don't know about or haven't encountered yet!

I've seen photos of Chesapeakes from ca. 1900 that were clearly mostly Curlycoat. -- I've contended for years that Chessies are of mainly Curly and Airedale ancestry, with various regional crosses to other breeds -- what curly-haired water-retrieving breed comes in "rust, and slut-black" as was said of the two foundation dogs of the breed? Yep. Ever see an old-line working-type Airedale? Yep.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

1st retriever said:


> I bet no one ever thought it was Norwegian Elkhound! I know I didn't!


Nope.... but when I read that in M.R-W's book, I immediately thought of the famous photo of several Kinley Labs in a row, the particular look they have through the eyes and earset, and of the tail carriage when excited, and the lie of the coat on the tails of certain descendants... well, that explains that!

Later I realised which particular Famous Show Litter was doubled behind all the silver pedigrees, and lo and behold it goes back to a Kinley dog. And so did the two "silver" yellow dogs I saw in the 1970s. (One was very pale grey, the other looked like a yellow that had spent a month in an aluminum crate.)

Fact is, crosses don't necesarily do any damage, _provided_ subsequent generations are selected back toward correct breed type. It's when folks select toward the crossbred type that breeds change for the worse.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Reziac said:


> Fact is, crosses don't necesarily do any damage, _provided_ subsequent generations are selected back toward correct breed type. It's when folks select toward the crossbred type that breeds change for the worse.


And that, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with silver Labs. If the gene did exist, it was selected against, as the parent club makes clear by not recognizing it. So why do some people think it's OK to purposely introduce it back in, either in the form of finding a rare mutation and inbreeding on it, or falsifying registration papers? I trust since Labs have Norwegian Elkhounds in their pedigree, it would then be dandy to select ones with tails curled up over their backs like a cheerio and breed the hell out of them? Because Labs DO have Elkhound in the ancestry and since there is the occasional curly tail, why not breed for ringlet tails? Mmmmmm.... think of all the fun varieties of lab you could have tracing back to their varied ancestry!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Crist Culo raised Labs and Weims. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what is a rare mutation or a throwback, and what isn't.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Reziac said:


> I've seen photos of Chesapeakes from ca. 1900 that were clearly mostly Curlycoat. -- I've contended for years that Chessies are of mainly Curly and Airedale ancestry, with various regional crosses to other breeds -- what curly-haired water-retrieving breed comes in "rust, and slut-black" as was said of the two foundation dogs of the breed? Yep. Ever see an old-line working-type Airedale? Yep.



No to Curly, probably to Airedale. there were no Curlies in the US at the time Chessies were developed. There was the breed that was the foundation for almost all the retriever and spaniel breeds, the Newfoundland, but that was a vastly different breed back in those days from what I call the "English Show Newfoundland" of today. Before 1925, the Newfoundland in Canada and the US looked very much like the Chessies you are thinking of. I have a picture of a famous show Newf from the early 1920s and the similarities were striking.

Meanwhile in the UK, the original newf was crossed with larger, more "stylish" breeds, and the Newf of today was developed. They were imported back to North America and were an immediate hit with the show crowd. So much so, that the old-style, original North American Newf is now extinct, and the English Show Newf is the only strain in existence. 

As far as Airedales, I have no direct evidence, but I do have information from the son of a man who bred Chessies in the Plains area just prior to and during the Great Depression. His father used "**** dogs" liberally in his breeding program. What people have to understand is that "**** dogs" of the time were not necessarily the pure strains of hounds we have today. In fact, any dog that would work on fur was considered a "**** dog", and were used extensively on big game. Airedales were often used to cross in with some of the hound strains to produce a dog with a bit better coat for winter conditions hunting fur on the prairies (ND, SD, MN, into Canada...this breeder was from MN). I have not yet found any direct, verifieble crosses to Airedale, but the dots connect fairly well in a secondary sense. the Brfeeder's name (for Chessie folks out there) was Everett, and his dogs are behind Chessies today, primarily through her son, Ch Gip Bob.

Lisa


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> No to Curly, probably to Airedale. there were no Curlies in the US at the time Chessies were developed.


Actually, there had been Curlies in the U.S. since about 1860, and there are historical photos that may be earlier than that. The first Curlies that can be identified (by pedigree) in the NKC/AKC Stud Books were registered in 1888 -- Meadowthorpe Diamond 9454 vol.V part II, and Meadowthorpe Molly 9455 vol.V part II. At the time retrievers were all lumped together, so one has to really know the pedigrees, and sometimes track descendants, to determine breed. In this case, King Koffee was a known Curly, and of all the Retriever breeds, only Curlies show NO crosses to other breeds per early stud books. (Perhaps because they were so different in type and temperament from the other breeds/types.)


Pedigree of: Meadowthorpe Molly 9455 vol.V part II
Date of Birth: 9/1/1887
Colour & Markings: liver
Owner: Meadowthorpe Country Club, Lexington KY


+--
- Duke 
| +--
+--Eng CH King Koffee 
| | +--
| - [dam not recorded] 
| +--
+--- King of the Koffees E.12683 
| | +--
| | - True 
| | | +--
| +-- Pearl 
| | +--
| - Zeida 
| +--
Meadowthorpe Molly 9455 vol.V part II
| +--
| - Duke 
| | +--
| +--Eng CH King Koffee 
| | | +--
| | - [dam not recorded] 
| | +--
+--- Mistake E.15579 
| +--
| - Garnet 
| | +--
+--Eng CH Black Pearl 
| +--
- Cocoanut 
+--



Pedigree of: Meadowthorpe Diamond 9454 vol.V part II
Date of Birth: 4/1/1886
Colour & Markings: blk
Owner: Meadowthorpe Country Club, Lexington KY


+--
- Merry 
| +--
+-- Sam 
| | +--
| - Polly 
| +--
+--- ****** III E.20525 
| | +--
| | - Young King Koffee 
| | | +--
| +-- Nell 
| | +--
| - Princess 
| +--
Meadowthorpe Diamond 9454 vol.V part II
| +--
| -
| | +--
| +-- Captain Ben 
| | | +--
| | -
| | +--
+--- Gloom 
| +--
| -
| | +--
+-- Jessie 
| +--
-
+--

(I don't have all day to fix the indents, but you get the idea.)

I'll see if I can dig up the two early Chessie photos I'm thinking of.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Reziac said:


> Actually, there had been Curlies in the U.S. since about 1860, and there are historical photos that may be earlier than that. The first Curlies that can be identified (by pedigree) in the NKC/AKC Stud Books were registered in 1888 -- Meadowthorpe Diamond 9454 vol.V part II, and Meadowthorpe Molly 9455 vol.V part II. At the time retrievers were all lumped together, so one has to really know the pedigrees, and sometimes track descendants, to determine breed. In this case, King Koffee was a known Curly, and of all the Retriever breeds, only Curlies show NO crosses to other breeds per early stud books. (Perhaps because they were so different in type and temperament from the other breeds/types



Yes, I am familiar with Curly history. However, not ALL retrievers were lumped togather, just the English ones. Chessies were not called Retrievers until the 20th century. They were known as Chesapeake Water Dogs, and have had separate registration since the earliest stud books in the US (AKR and NAKC, both of which I have original volumes of).

Chessies were a distinct, recognizable type since 1824, when the first written description of them as a recognizeable breed is recorded in detail. I know what pictures you ar talking about; longer and curlier haired versions of the breed still crop up. There was documented crossing to Irish Water Spaniels after the Civil War. Plus, the early Newf had a curly type of coat. However, it comes nowhere near the type of tight, crisp curl of the Curly Coated Retriever. it is a looser, more open type of curl, and more commonly ringlets from the IWS ancestor.

Lisa


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Crist Culo raised Labs and Weims. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what is a rare mutation or a throwback, and what isn't.


I know that accusation has come up in recent times (never at the time of the original "silver" controversy) -- but I spoke to the AKC rep who did the actual on-site investigation, and he told me "the guy has two Labs that live in the back of his pizza parlor, eat all the scraps and are fat as pigs." No mention of Weims at all. (BTW this was right after the original hoo-rah, when memories were still fresh, not 20+ years later.)

Also, I spoke to the breeder of the original Crist Culo dogs' sire, and he told me that dog's dam's sister (I think it was) had also produced "silver" puppies, as had a related dog on the other side of the pedigree. No Weims there....

Furthermore, the dilution factor is a simple recessive. The only way to produce "silver" puppies from a Lab/Weim cross is to make TWO generations of crosses to Weims. A single generation will not suffice -- _unless the Lab already carries the dilution factor._ 

I have encountered "silver" pedigrees with NO Crist Culo breeding -- both dogs I've seen myself and others. One line goes back to a famous chocolate Eng/Am.CH and BIS winner.... on both sides. That particular famous dog had the "grey cast" that I mentioned before. And how do you explain the 1960s/70s grey puppies from namebrand show breeders??

Also, searching for Weim pedigrees with "Culo" in the name (as one would expect to see) turns up nothing.

It's easy to blame Weim crossbreeding, but it's not supported by the facts or the pedigrees.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I know that accusation has come up in recent times (never at the time of the original "silver" controversy) -- but I spoke to the AKC rep who did the actual on-site investigation, and he told me "the guy has two Labs that live in the back of his pizza parlor, eat all the scraps and are fat as pigs." No mention of Weims at all. (BTW this was right after the original hoo-rah, when memories were still fresh, not 20+ years later.)


Hmm, yes there was a controversy 20 years ago-see my post with the AKC gazette article from 1987. Wonder if you talked to the AKC rep that made the mistake because I got the story also from a respected, since retired, AKC rep who was head of performance for many years directly at a hunt test. The original guy missed the whole thing and now AKC is stuck with it. As far as kennels names, they can be changed. Did you ever see his original pedigrees? I had them but lost them with a computer crash. Totally inbred over and over. No rational breeder would do that unless they were selecting for the silver. I'm not buying your story about CC for a minute. Like Bill said, we would have to find the bones of that Weim to disprove it.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Hmm, yes there was a controversy 20 years ago-see my post with the AKC gazette article from 1987. Wonder if you talked to the AKC rep that made the mistake because I got the story also from a respected, since retired, AKC rep who was head of performance for many years directly at a hunt test. The original guy missed the whole thing and now AKC is stuck with it. As far as kennels names, they can be changed. Did you ever see his original pedigrees? I had them but lost them with a computer crash. Totally inbred over and over. No rational breeder would do that unless they were selecting for the silver. I'm not buying your story about CC for a minute. Like Bill said, we would have to find the bones of that Weim to disprove it.


Somewhere around here I have the original pedigree (a photocopy of the AKC-issued pedigree, and some further research I had done later) for Crist's first "silver" pups (Dudly Culo who was cast-iron grey -- I've seen the dog in person, when he was being run in Derby in California -- and Spook Culo who was mouse brown). It's all random stuff, not even significantly linebred. The inbreedings came later, after he discovered people would pay double the going rate for "silver" pups. 

Kennel names can be changed but pedigrees and stud books are forever. Find me a pedigree or stud book entry or registration for a Weim owned by Dean Crist -- remember that breeders and owners ARE listed in the stud books. And it still doesn't explain the other "silver" pups from two generations previous (not of his breeding nor ownership) nor those from 10 and 20 years previous and halfway across the country, from namebrand pedigrees. (One of the "silver" yellows I saw in the 1970s was bred in Hawaii, from straight bench lineage. The other was sired by one of the top American show studs of the 1970s.)

Personally I think history is being "rewritten by the victors" to include a Weim, to ensure that the whole thing has a permanent bad reputation. The fact is that if it had been a big-name show breeder promoting them, by now "silver" would be an accepted colour. But since they were first _promoted_ by some nobody who was breeding just to sell pups, it's a scandal instead -- so let's pile on the dirt, valid or not!

As it happens, one long-established show breeder has been developing her own line of "silver" Labs, and has done wonders for their conformation (most of 'em are damned ugly, and if you'd seen Dudly or Spook Culo, you'd know why). But I think it's too far down the road for the colour to ever become accepted, at least by the major registries.

Personally I have no interest in "silvers" except as a historical curiosity (the charcoal shade is pretty, tho I don't like the mouse-brown at all). But as with any genetic trait, _desirable or not_, it behooves us to track it accurately, not as we would wish it to be.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Crist's first "silver" pups (Dudly Culo who was cast-iron grey -- I've seen the dog in person, when he was being run in Derby in California -- and Spook Culo who was mouse brown)


So the original CC silvers were "the guy has two Labs that live in the back of his pizza parlor, eat all the scraps and are fat as pigs but the first pup was running Derby in California? You are saying a field trialer bought a silver lab from a guy that lives at a pizza parlor in rural northern Wisconsin? My guess is his residence was elsewhere but he fed that to the AKC rep, and that his "breeding" had been going on for more than a few years and he wanted them finally recognized. As far as the Weim, who knows who owned him. As far as the other Silvers, I believe they existed, but I still don't believe his were purebred. Years ago, before DNA, lots of dogs were registered from misbreeds and sons of sires. The controversy will go on because it can't be disproved anymore, but you still can't explain away those funky ears which I have only seen on his line of Silvers.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> So the original CC silvers were "the guy has two Labs that live in the back of his pizza parlor, eat all the scraps and are fat as pigs but the first pup was running Derby in California?


You misread what I said. I'll use small words this time... 

His first dog and bitch were chocolate; he'd evidently set out to breed chocolates, no different from a lot of people back when those where what _sold_. These two original chocolate Labs lived in the pizza parlour. Bred to each other they produced (at least) two "silver" pups -- Dudly (charcoal) and Spook (pale mouse-brown). I saw Dudly when he was being run in Derby on the circuit in California, no different than any other dog on some pro's truck. He was still owned by Crist. 

[goes off, roots thru old catalogs] Here it is: Entry #29 in the Derby, San Diego RC, 1987 (there's no date on the catalog but by the age of some derby dogs it must have been no later than the first weekend in March). Owner, Dean Crist; handler, Dick Sampson.

At this trial Sampson was also the handler in Open for FC AFC Hiwood Piper's Pacer's Pic (Oscar Brewer), Orville Redenbacher (Bing Grunwald), Koskinen's Mojave Valley Canuck, and another derby dog.

At this trial, Dudly Culo wasn't very good (so-so marker, not a lot of drive or style, went out after a couple series), but neither were some of his ancestors. He must have been about 9 months old at this FT (born 5-26-86; youngest dog entered). Likely would have made a good enough gundog, but not really FT material.

Having seen the dog with my own eyes: He did not in any way resemble a Weim or pointer of any description; however he WAS the spitting image of a particular well-known chocolate bitch behind him, whom I'd owned a daughter of some years before (she wasn't very good either! and produced pups that looked/ran kinda like Dudly. I trashcanned that line in 1984.) Poor head, long back, general lack of type, but fairly decent running gear. He did move nice, had a good tail and dense Lab coat (not a Pointer coat), and was calm and mannerly.

To get "silver" from a Weim cross would have required TWO generations of breeding to a Weim (Weim would have to be bred to its own offspring), or TWO offspring of a Weim bred to each other. You would not get it from a chance mismate, UNLESS the LAB already carried the dilution factor (and then the litter would have been 50% dilutes, not 25%. And the relatives two generations previous and owned elsewhere wouldn't have produced it either.)

And then there would have been no point in nor need to inbreed back on Dudly and Spook to produce more of the colour -- any dog would do. The fact is, a Weim doesn't make sense in light of the pedigrees nor of the dogs themselves. That many of their descendants are poor quality Labs and often typeless, they come by honestly -- if you inbreed back on mediocre specimens you won't get anything better than you started with, and probably worse. 

That someone may have cheated in a Weim after the fact... I won't say it's not possible, but I still haven't seen a pedigree that supports that, or a dog that looked like anything but a distillation of the mediocre foundations. And yes, I _would_ expect houndy heads and some weird ears from doubling up those dogs. (Do you expect classic Lab heads from doubling up on Lean Mac? Of course not. Why do you expect it from doubling up on a poor head in another line??)

The other thing is... since by necessity a Weim origin means inbreeding back on a Weim cross -- I think we'd be seeing a lot of "pointing Labs" in silvers, and that hasn't happened either (I've yet to see one advertised that way, and you know damn well if a "rare" trait were to be had, the salesmen types would be hawking it for all it's worth).


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> My guess is his residence was elsewhere but he fed that to the AKC rep, and that his "breeding" had been going on for more than a few years and he wanted them finally recognized.


BTW why would he care? AKC had registered the first ones as "silver" without a blink. (Remember, back then you could write in the dog's colour. It wasn't limited to the three kosher choices.) There wasn't any "controversy" until he started marketing them for big bucks.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> To get "silver" from a Weim cross would have required TWO generations of breeding to a Weim (Weim would have to be bred to its own offspring), or TWO offspring of a Weim bred to each other.


Exactly-I don't believe it was a mismate; it was done on purpose. OK, I will accept _he_ sent the dog to run derby and it failed-that would fit in with trying to promote his dogs and most of the Silvers registered still aren't competitive. I saw one in a Junior hunt test that was mediocre at best, especially on the water. 



> Do you expect classic Lab heads from doubling up on Lean Mac?


Actually, it depends on your idea of a classic lab head, pre or post Sandylands influence in the US, but I have seen some very nice heads doubled up on LeanMac.



> AKC had registered the first ones as "silver" without a blink. (Remember, back then you could write in the dog's colour. It wasn't limited to the three kosher choices.) There wasn't any "controversy" until he started marketing them for big bucks.


What year exactly are you saying he registered the first ones as "back then"?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

As for Weims adding any "point" to silver Labs....first, they'd have to have a bunch of it themselves. While many of them do point, the style and intensity and drive just isn't comparable to other pointing breeds. I see a lot of them, and have seen two that were decent, solid dogs, plus one really good one (I did the FF training on him, and I woulnd't have minded owning him...I liked him that much) and probably a hundred or so that just sort of "stood" their game, with very little drive or intensity and little to no range. They suit some people's preferences mostly because of the color/looks thing. Only a handful of Weim breeders are actually breeding for ability...and of those who are, they are rarely successful in competitions outside their own breed. I think the fault there lies with the "breeders" who go for color and appeal to the yuppie market...plus the strictly show sort....talent and ability aren't at the top of their priority lists. Kinda like silver labs.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

OK, I must be dense or something...but I have a question. 

As for seeing a pedigree that supports the addition of a Weim...does anyone really believe that a Weim is actually going to be listed on a pedigree if it were used??? Seems to me that to keep up the deception, one would list a Labrador's name on the pedigree and sneak the Weim in through the back door without listing it on paper.
Am I missing something?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> OK, I must be dense or something...but I have a question.
> 
> As for seeing a pedigree that supports the addition of a Weim...does anyone really believe that a Weim is actually going to be listed on a pedigree if it were used??? Seems to me that to keep up the deception, one would list a Labrador's name on the pedigree and sneak the Weim in through the back door without listing it on paper.
> Am I missing something?


Exactly. Just like anyone who says X is the sire when they know Y really is.
While the story is the most interesting I have heard to date, I just can't buy that a person would set out to breed chocolates and just happen to come up with with two dogs from common but fairly outcrossed breedings and produce silver. It would seem it would happen more often to other breeders but I guess it does only in the Wisconsin Northwoods. Crist is not unintelligent, but arrogant and defiant (which may be why the LRC won't recognize the color) and has made a killing on inbreeding common lines for color, and we'll never know for sure how but we do know why.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Any results yet Sherri or did Vires bring the sample with him when he drove up?


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Exactly-I don't believe it was a mismate; it was done on purpose.
> 
> What year exactly are you saying he registered the first ones as "back then"?


I have a photocopy of one of the registrations here somewhere, with the colour listed as "silver"; Crist sent it to me -- I'd inquired after seeing Dudly, just curious. IIRC it's for Spook Culo.

The assumption you're making is that he _set out_ to invent a new colour, and that also is not true. The story told to me by the AKC rep continues:

Crist didn't know what he had, other than a funny-coloured pup. Someone came along to look at the litter, said to him, "Oh, that's one of those rare silver Labs" and offered him $1000 for it (which was a LOT of money for a dog back then). And that's when he got the notion to try to breed more of 'em. 

Which wasn't hard -- just breed one of the "silvers" to either of its parents and bingo, a litter that's 50% "silver".

========

I remember some of the arguments over chocolate pups as late as the 1970s. One would crop up in a long line of blacks and everyone would scream that no way was it purebred, it had to be a Chessie or GSP cross or some such. Nope, it's just that recessives do occasionally meet up in random breeding, and then you get the unexpected. 

And yeah, occasionally there _are_ mismates, occasionally on purpose. I could tell of a few... including some swapping of FCs. Used to be if someone wouldn't let you watch the mating, you could assume some other dog did the deed.

But at least in Crist's original litter, I don't think those silvers were one of 'em.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> OK, I must be dense or something...but I have a question.
> 
> As for seeing a pedigree that supports the addition of a Weim...does anyone really believe that a Weim is actually going to be listed on a pedigree if it were used??? Seems to me that to keep up the deception, one would list a Labrador's name on the pedigree and sneak the Weim in through the back door without listing it on paper.
> Am I missing something?


What I mean is a pedigree where there is NO possibility of the dilute factor coming from both sides, assuming the pedigree is accurate. And I've yet to see one where I couldn't track it on both sides.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I'm sorry but after reading some of the correspondence a researcher had with him, the man just wasn't that dumb. He was yanking that reps chain.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> I'm sorry but after reading some of the correspondence a researcher had with him, the man just wasn't that dumb. He was yanking that reps chain.


From what I've seen, the guy didn't start off being a dick about it (tho I'd have to agree, he is now). That came after being attacked by the Lab-powers-that-be.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Reziac said:


> From what I've seen, the guy didn't start off being a dick about it (tho I'd have to agree, he is now). That came after being attacked by the Lab-powers-that-be.


And can you blame him?

Nancy... why fight about it? Unless you their when the parents concieved the first chocolate, the first silver, or the first fox red, it's all speculation on yours and everyone else's part. 

You say we are misinformed. I've read every from web site that you and anyone else has referenced. You treat those that don't support the silver as pure unadulterated gospel. I disagree with you and always will.

Chessies = Chocolates
Red bone hounds and Tollers = Fox Red
Weims = Silver

That's my new opinion. I have absolutely no evidence to support it. I have absolutely no way to prove it. I have absolutely no reason to stand on a rooftop and scream it out. It sounds good though and I can find evidence that someone duck hunted once around a farm that someone **** hunted on. (Same fundamental that you are basing your decisions on so it must be true )


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told by the person who knew what really happened. All that inbreeding of Silvers Crist did didn't improve what he started with.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told by the person who knew what really happened. All that inbreeding of Silvers Crist did didn't improve what he started with.


Why didn't you say that you new somebody who watched the initial breeding? That would have settled it right then. 

That would be the only way that "_the person who knew what really happened_" really knew what happened, right?

If you weren't there, you are making aquisitions that you cannot support. Plain and simple.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I think the biggest issue with the "breeder" mentioned is that he breeds strictly to make money, with no thought toward healthy dogs, or structure or talent or ability or temperament. Just inbreed an off color to overcharge people and rake in money...who cares if the dogs even look like Labs? The most important thing to a "breeder" like that is whether or not the buyer's check clears.

If he were doing health clearances, sending pups out the door no earlier than seven or eight weeks instead of five weeks old, and having any sort of reasonable guarantee...and if he was at the very least concerned about producing pups that looked like Labs regardless of color...and if he was turning out dogs that could at the very least do well in hunt tests...maybe he'd be more likely to have a chance for his dogs to be accepted. Instead, he claims we're all jealous of his success. If success is defined as suckering people into buying inbred dogs of poor type and unacceptable breed color, with no health clearances or performance records, and charging inflated prices, then I am not interested in being "successful". That definition of success translates into puppy mill.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> I think the biggest issue with the "breeder" mentioned is that he breeds strictly to make money, with no thought toward healthy dogs, or structure or talent or ability or temperament. Just inbreed an off color to overcharge people and rake in money...who cares if the dogs even look like Labs? The most important thing to a "breeder" like that is whether or not the buyer's check clears.
> 
> If he were doing health clearances, sending pups out the door no earlier than seven or eight weeks instead of five weeks old, and having any sort of reasonable guarantee...and if he was at the very least concerned about producing pups that looked like Labs regardless of color...and if he was turning out dogs that could at the very least do well in hunt tests...maybe he'd be more likely to have a chance for his dogs to be accepted. Instead, he claims we're all jealous of his success. If success is defined as suckering people into buying inbred dogs of poor type and unacceptable breed color, with no health clearances or performance records, and charging inflated prices, then I am not interested in being "successful". That definition of success translates into puppy mill.


Sharon, while people get all hung up on the color, the truth of the matter is, I think the majority of the opposition to silver labs is in what you've read. Just like people openly and aggressively oppose byb who do nothing for the betterment of the breed. When it's about the money, its wrong.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Sharon, while people get all hung up on the color, the truth of the matter is, I think the majority of the opposition to silver labs is in what you've read. Just like people openly and aggressively oppose byb who do nothing for the betterment of the breed. When it's about the money, its wrong.


That was kinda my point up above. If it had been some big-name breeder "doing all the right things", by now it would be an accepted colour. But since it was some nobody and a half-vast operation....

But I'd contend that the real objection by the LRC wasn't the failure to "do all the right things" so much as it was the being a nobody (and I began to believe that after speaking to Helen Warwick about it). And because of that elitism, now it's too late to DO the right things -- the trashy "silvers" are the majority of what's out there, and that won't improve so long as they're attacked as they are today. The colour is not going to go away -- so would you rather they were decent specimens of the breed, or that they stayed mostly crap??

(Or doesn't anyone else remember when chocolates were considered "rare and valuable" by some, eyed askance by everyone else, and were generally quite trashy specimens, bred mainly by people out for money?? They didn't get better until they were accepted by the mainstream, and were no longer a "cult colour".)


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Can’t you guys get off this Culo stuff? It is so very antiquated and has been beaten to death. Everyone wants to point at CC and argue about it, yet everyone conveniently ignores the other unrelated Silver lines like "BeaverCreek" in Ohio. You don't see many people questioning that line. 
or,
how about we spend some time figuring out how this one happened...No Culo, no BeaverCreek...but a few Kennel names you see floating around RTF every now and then.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> how about we spend some time figuring out how this one happened...No Culo, no BeaverCreek...but a few Kennel names you see floating around RTF every now and then.


Buy the pedigree from AKC behind the sires grandam, and the dams grandam and grandsire. Some of the later breedings of Pachanga weren't his.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Buy the pedigree from AKC behind the sires grandam, and the dams grandam and grandsire. Some of the later breedings of Pachanga weren't his.


Whose were they??

The usual situation when there's a substitution is that the old man can't get it up anymore, so one of his sons takes over stud duties, at least til they're caught. Which means it's still a purebred Lab, even tho the pedigree is partly wrong.

I've tried to avoid saying this, cuz I didn't want to start a fresh blame war, but two modern common factors behind some of the non-Culo silvers are ANY dog from the Sandylands "S" litter (Sandylands Sam, etc. -- this is where the Culo dogs get it) and more recently, Lawnwoods Hot Chocolate. 

Further back, any of the early Kinley/Poppleton dogs, including through some Whygin dogs that have Kinley ancestry.

The real wonder is that we haven't seen it more often.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Ironman said:


> Can’t you guys get off this Culo stuff? It is so very antiquated and has been beaten to death. Everyone wants to point at CC and argue about it, yet everyone conveniently ignores the other unrelated Silver lines like "BeaverCreek" in Ohio. You don't see many people questioning that line.
> or,
> how about we spend some time figuring out how this one happened...No Culo, no BeaverCreek...but a few Kennel names you see floating around RTF every now and then.


Yep... people talk like it's just one bunch of polluted dogs, but it's not. I think this is going to be just like the chocolate gene -- it had a point source in the 1800s (Buccleuch Avon) which means there were a LOT of carriers in the early days, even tho we very seldom saw brown puppies except by sheer dumb luck, and usually to the utter bafflement of people who didn't really know the ancestry. It took almost 100 years for chocolate to become a common colour, despite the fact that a foundation dog of the breed carried it.

As to this example, I'd like to see this pedigree further back. Daveog would be show-bred. Let's see what we can dig up, eh?

Later: I found the pedigree easily enough (all the "mystery" dogs are from well-known breeding, and all are listed in this database: http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/check2a.asp?act=SCHT ), and it goes back through several known and suspect "silver" carriers. *NONE of them are Culo dogs.* Amusingly, both the sires of the two "silver" yellows I saw in the 1970s are present fairly close up, as is a dog from a litter that I think may have had a charcoal-coloured puppy.

(Is this thread capped or something? I went to reply and couldn't, tho I can edit my own post.)


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> The ash color in Chesapeakes is very obvious at birth as the pups look really silver and don't have any masking or shading.


I wonder if this "ash" thing is a chinchilla gene rather than a dilution gene. Certainly looks like it.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Juli H said:


> "It dilutes, or changes, brown to ash or silver and black to charcoal and yellow to pale cream/white."
> 
> so therefore this dilution gene HAS been in labs for some time ....given the fairly common 'white' labs you see out and about..
> Juli


It does not make yellow into white. The two "silver" yellows that I've seen had grey noses and eyes, and rather than their coat shadings being cream, tan, or reddish shading, one's was extremely pale grey, and the other's was quite dark (looked exactly like a dog that had spent a month in an aluminum crate, which it hadn't, being a show dog). The sires of each are in the pedigree debated on page 24, out beyond what's shown there.

The "white" type of yellow has been in the breed at least since Stag 1898 (sire of FC Flapper) who was known to sire it. In the U.S. the very light and white yellows mainly come down from Peggy of Shipton, while dark yellows came from just about all the other lines that produced yellow. 

At an educated guess, the "white" yellow probably originated with a cross to a white Alsatian, which may explain why for so long the "white" yellows lacked drive, were often of very different type, and had much denser/longer coats (light yellows had vastly more undercoat, and a longer, softer, and more open topcoat, compared to darks). 

Until about 30 years ago, when the distinctions became muddied (as the old lines got outcrossed more often), you could pretty much sort 'em for working ability by colour -- the darks would be good workers and the lights would be crap. There were exceptions but this was typical, even within a single litter (if you happened to have both types). Also, a dark that had a white-type coat, which could happen if you mixed the types, often wasn't a very good worker either.

The "white" modifier is apparently recessive, as one seldom gets a pup darker than either parent (unless chocolate or copper-red is present too).


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> And ash is fully recognized by the ACC as a perfectly acceptable color that's always existed in the breed. If I had a dime for every lecture I've gotten by the above-described internet police on how 'risky it is to breed for ash because you can get undesirable traits' or 'ash is rare because most people don't breed for it' (doh) (never mind that I've never intentionally bred for it) I would be rich.


I'd never heard it called "ash", but I've been away from Chessies and the ACC for some years. Doesn't look any different from the light browns we saw back-when, so maybe it's the same thing in a new label. 

My bias in Chessies is for true deadgrass with no masking -- very seldom seen nowadays, but to me it's the One True Colour


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

Reziac said:


> I'd never heard it called "ash", but I've been away from Chessies and the ACC for some years. Doesn't look any different from the light browns we saw back-when, so maybe it's the same thing in a new label.


I dunno, this doesn't look like a light brown to me!


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

Tollwest said:


> I dunno, this doesn't look like a light brown to me!


[turns monitor up to 'FRY"] Guess it depends on how dark the picture is  When I turn up the gain it's more of a grey, yeah... and _that_, I had not seen nor heard of back when I was involved in Chessies (1970s-80s).

There was a Chessie/Weim cross litter in Bozeman MT about 1970 (I saw one of them as an adult) ... most Chessies in the area were not registered and I doubt any of these sneaked into the reg'd gene pool, but the one I saw was this same colour. Coat was much too short and thin to pass for pure Chessie, but body shape, head, ears, and mannerisms could have passed any day. That dog LOVED to carry his master's tools around, especially a hammer!

[There's another argument against Weim in the silver Labs -- where are the short single Pointer coats? most silvers seem to have more coat than is strictly necessary, rather than the reverse!]


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

This whole discussion is moot because the integrity of the stud book prior to DNA is questionable at best, and apparently subject mostly to personal observation. For those that want to pursue common dogs that were grossly inbred for the purpose of color only, have at it.


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

Reziac said:


> [turns monitor up to 'FRY"] Guess it depends on how dark the picture is  When I turn up the gain it's more of a grey, yeah... and _that_, I had not seen nor heard of back when I was involved in Chessies (1970s-80s).


It may not be a very common color in Chessies but it is definitely not new, it has been around a LONG time! And there are finished Champions in this color, unlike labs. My girl is making her show debut this summer  Here is a pic of Cirrus outside a couple weeks ago. 










It is really hard to get pics that show true color, as the color looks totally different depending on the lighting. As she ages (7 months old now) she is getting a little bit browner through the body, but it is still very distinct in person from a regular "light brown". She is still quite silver on her head & legs. Her mom is ash, her sire is light deadgrass. Her littermates were ash, various shades of deadgrass and 2 dark brown


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> This whole discussion is moot because the integrity of the stud book prior to DNA is questionable at best, and apparently subject mostly to personal observation. For those that want to pursue common dogs that were grossly inbred for the purpose of color only, have at it.


Sure, a silver pedigree shows up with ZERO inbreeding and a couple well known names close up and the knee jerk reaction is _"This whole discussion is moot because the integrity of the stud book prior to DNA is questionable at best"_. Ever so predictable.  Well if _"the stud book prior to DNA is questionable at best"_, we can then consider that the heritage of all Labs prior to DNA is questionable…I guess we ought to not breed any of them, after all, they are likely not pure anyway... 
It's easy to attack the inbred Culo dogs and their colorful breeder, but where are all the testimonials about how the other lines are all crossed in with Weims and the third or fourth hand accounts from unnamed authorities to back up everyone's claims? Where are the attacks on the breeders that produced these dogs? The pedigree I posted has been around since 2001, the Beavercreek pedigrees since the mid 90's. Don't tell me they some how slipped past all the Anti-Silver people who speak so authoritatively on the topic. Maybe just a convenient oversight...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I have the actual experience of linebreeding those "well known names" and have yet to come up with a Silver, and many FC black-chocolate factored pedigrees go back to that name, and many other breeders have not produced Silver either. A pedigree doesn't start in 2001 because a recessive trait can be carried for 5 or 10 generations before it is expressed, and most likely comes from a dog that was _not_ bred extensively and when there was no DNA, only observation.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

I personally don't know exactly where in that pedigree the dilution came from, Ky seems to know though. My point about the pedigree is in reference to the dog whose it is, "Lillys Silver Husker". He, and subsequently his own personal pedigree, had been around since 2001; of course like all Labs, his lines go back to Avon. Husker is not a secret at all and yet you never see negative comments on his silver producing lines...heck, you never see any comments on it at all...very seldom does one see anything said about Beavercreek either. You are right though, recessive traits can be hidden for multiple generations...and if never bred to the right individual, never expressed. Keep trying the linebreeding thing, you might yet get your Silver someday!


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

OK, I just have one question.

Was a sample ever sent to one of the "mushroom" DNA labs (I say mushroom, because they seem to spring up overnight)? What was the result?

Lisa


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

As far as I can tell by looking at other more recent pedigrees with Husker in them is that he has been DNA'd by the AKC, "AKC DNA #V341898".

A couple year ago I visited with the owners of the Beavercreek dogs and they claim to have had their first Silvers DNA tested as well as their living non-silver ancestors, which included at least the parents. All correctly identified and their relationships accurate. It was Dr. Mark Neff, then of UC Berkley (now director at UC Davis genetics Lab), who did the DNA parentage tests of these dogs; at that time he was studying the dilution gene in canines and apparently was instrumental in mapping the Mlph gene in dogs ,which is responsible for the dilution. This is the "Dr. Neff" connection occasionally posted about on the internet.


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## Latisha (Feb 2, 2004)

Ironman said:


> As far as I can tell by looking at other more recent pedigrees with Husker in them is that he has been DNA'd by the AKC, "AKC DNA #V341898".


The AKC DNA certification numbers do not automatically mean that parentage has been proven. AKC will do that, but it is an extra service.

UC Davis now offers dilute (MLPH) testing. http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolordog.php

Latisha


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Yes, I am familiar with Curly history. However, not ALL retrievers were lumped togather, just the English ones. Chessies were not called Retrievers until the 20th century. They were known as Chesapeake Water Dogs, and have had separate registration since the earliest stud books in the US (AKR and NAKC, both of which I have original volumes of).
> 
> Chessies were a distinct, recognizable type since 1824, when the first written description of them as a recognizeable breed is recorded in detail. I know what pictures you ar talking about; longer and curlier haired versions of the breed still crop up. There was documented crossing to Irish Water Spaniels after the Civil War. Plus, the early Newf had a curly type of coat. However, it comes nowhere near the type of tight, crisp curl of the Curly Coated Retriever. it is a looser, more open type of curl, and more commonly ringlets from the IWS ancestor.
> 
> Lisa


All Curly Coated Retrievers do not have tight, crisp curls. That is the stated perfect coat in the standard, not always the reality. The reason the current AKC curly standard states "shearing of the body coat is undesirable" is because shearing or sculpting of the body coat normally does not give a true depiction of the dog's natural body coat as an adult at about 4 years. (The shearing admonishment is a moot point now days: everyone shears body coats on curlies.)

Many curlies have looser, more open coats and can develop ringlets although never as long as modern-day IWS. (Key point being modern-day IWS.)

The black and liver/chocolate/brown (insert synonym for some shade of brown here) "newfoundland" dogs who supposedly were the beginning foundation of Chessies likely were of the same ancestry as modern-day curlies. Curlies came in four primary colors: black, brown, white and yellow. Many of the Newfoundland dogs described in early literature were actually curly coated retriever dogs. I'm not saying they were the same breed as modern-day curlies but the wave in Chessie and some labrador coats can be linked back to those curly "Newfoundlands". 

Some early Chesapeake breeders mention the "Irish Retriever" as an anscestor of the Chessie. Of course, looking earlier (or later as the case may be), the Tweed Water Spaniel, the Norfolk Spaniel, etc., all may have contributed to the breeds most of us now call retrievers.

Some people would pooh-pooh a Curly breeder if they produced a two-thirds white and one-third black puppy but it wouldn't surprise me at all. 

The sweet mystery of dog breeding is we never really know what we will get. When cloning becomes affordable, it won't be intriguing to breed dogs anymore.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi KY,

Great to see you here. Yep, some of those "Newfoundlands" in early literature were actually curly coats. And, not only the early Chessies look like curly-coats, you can look at one of those "early labradors" in the Wolters book and one of them looks exactly like an open-curled Curly.

Love to read your stuff. Miss you in our breed Oh, well, at least there are still of us older-than-dirt Curly people still hanging on......

J. Marti
Ptarmigan Curly Coated Retrievers
Kinky since 1977



Reziac said:


> The fact is, most of our breeds are not so simon-pure as we'd like to believe.
> 
> Until the early 1900s, crossbreedings were commonly used to gain desired traits or to correct faults. Also, as Mary Roslin-Williams writes, during WW2 many British kennels had to destroy breeding stock for lack of meat (commercial dog food didn't yet exist), and what they kept was sometimes bred to anything with legs to continue the line, and registered as being sired by a dead dog.
> 
> ...


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Speaking of Newfoundlands, here's a little website collage to consider...enjoy!
http://www.wbng.com/younews/41480532.html
http://beach-nut.com/Beachnut20.htm
http://www.newfiedog.com/images/champion-sired-puppies_600.jpg
http://northernnewfoundlands.googlepages.com/sivlerandpups.JPG/sivlerandpups-full.jpg
http://www.newfiedog.com/images/gray_manny_600.jpg
http://moosepeaknewfoundlands.com/puppypage.aspx


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