# Lean Mac



## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

Having never got to see the dog run, can someone tell me what Mac was known for? What were his strengths and weaknesses? Was he above average marker? What traits does his offspring usually possess? Thanks in advance for any and all answers. We just did this for Cosmo and of course I'm asking because my new pup has cosmo as a sire and Mac as a grandfather. I wanted high power, high energy.


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

He was a 2 time NAFC and a 2 time NAFTCH, so I would say he was an above average marker. He has produced well over 100 FC and or AFC titled dogs, so I would guess his pups carry some of his good traits also.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

hawgsalot said:


> Having never got to see the dog run, can someone tell me what Mac was known for? What were his strengths and weaknesses? Was he above average marker? What traits does his offspring usually possess? Thanks in advance for any and all answers. We just did this for Cosmo and of course I'm asking because my new pup has cosmo as a sire and Mac as a grandfather. I wanted high power, high energy.


Well there ya go, you know by now that Cosmo had lots of power and energy but couldn't mark worth a hoot, and Lean Mac was decent marker. I guess you better hope you got the right traits from both of them or you might have lazy, badly behaved, no marking, no handling dumbbutt! (I read your last post on the Cosmo thread)

Have fun with your pup. Hold on real tight and enjoy the sleigh ride!


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## Brent Keever (Jun 14, 2008)

Go to ramblinmaxx.com and ask Lesa she will know and be able to tell you whatever you want to know about Mac


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Just a couple of the many previous threads on Lean Mac:

http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14818&highlight=ebonstar+lean+mac

http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15034&highlight=ebonstar+lean+mac


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## Troy Williams (Sep 7, 2003)

Not mentioned but to add to the facts.......

Max finished 100+ consecutive National series. I really think it around 120 or more but I can't be sure.

Troy


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

When he was owned/campaigned in Canada before being sold to Sherwin friends of mine who judged him said that while the entire firld of dogs were marking the area of the fall Max was marking the blades of grass that the duck fell on, he could mark, but also was an ass to control untill he got a firm hand.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

After Marvins post on the Cosmo thread I noticed a couple of comments on subsequent posts stating that Cosmo could not mark.. Marvin did not say Cosmo could not mark. He did say he rated him 4th or 5th on a truck full of very good dogs. That doesn’t mean he was a poor marker, it just says he was not the best. Something else you should consider is that Cosmo’s marking would probably have been better if he had had better line manners. If the Olson’s had thought less about “cute” and more about “control” when he was a pup the creeping may not have been such an issue. I’m saying this because many of you have Cosmo pups and you can learn a good lesson from someone else’s experiences. If you want a good marking dog you are going to have to have very good control at the line. The reason you need that control is because the dog cannot mark well without your help. He doesn’t know which bird is going to be thrown next and if you are a good handler he is going to take he cues from your movements to decide which gun to move to next.	
Poor control, sloppy handling and letting your dog heel too far forward all contribute to problems that are commonly blamed on the dog such as creeping, switching, head swinging	and launching for the wrong bird and all these problems can hurt a dog’s ability to mark.
If you want a perfect example of how this works when done properly just stand behind Patton for a few series.
You will learn a new appreciation for proper heeling and you might start to realize that there is more to making a good marking dog than just having parents that mark well.
Lynn


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

No other dog in the last 15 years have had such a impact on our FT dogs....

Angie


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## RodneyB46 (Dec 18, 2008)

out of all the dogs lean mac has sired,which of those seemed to inhiert the ablity to pass on the title "proven producer of great dogs".any in paticular that we can say man that dog there has produced a ton of great dogs. out of all of macs sons,which would you choose to be the best producer?


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

frontier said:


> Just a couple of the many previous threads on Lean Mac:
> 
> http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14818&highlight=ebonstar+lean+mac
> 
> http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15034&highlight=ebonstar+lean+mac



Terrie:

I just read through both of those Lean Mac threads and was blown away. Thanks for pointing us all in the right direction. The pictures of Maxx at the Lardy seminar really showed his intensity. What a great thing this board can be when people who really know what they are talking about post like you have as opposed to post and post meaningless drivel. Better to read and post when you can really add something to the discussion as you have. THANK YOU Terrie, and Tim West, Lonny Taylor, and all of the others who related their memories of this neat dog the owners and his trainers.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Fetch - Hold! said:


> After Marvins post on the Cosmo thread I noticed a couple of comments on subsequent posts stating that Cosmo could not mark.. Marvin did not say Cosmo could not mark. He did say he rated him 4th or 5th on a truck full of very good dogs. That doesn’t mean he was a poor marker, it just says he was not the best. Something else you should consider is that Cosmo’s marking would probably have been better if he had had better line manners. If the Olson’s had thought less about “cute” and more about “control” when he was a pup the creeping may not have been such an issue. I’m saying this because many of you have Cosmo pups and you can learn a good lesson from someone else’s experiences. If you want a good marking dog you are going to have to have very good control at the line. The reason you need that control is because the dog cannot mark well without your help. He doesn’t know which bird is going to be thrown next and if you are a good handler he is going to take he cues from your movements to decide which gun to move to next.
> Poor control, sloppy handling and letting your dog heel too far forward all contribute to problems that are commonly blamed on the dog such as creeping, switching, head swinging	and launching for the wrong bird and all these problems can hurt a dog’s ability to mark.
> If you want a perfect example of how this works when done properly just stand behind Patton for a few series.
> You will learn a new appreciation for proper heeling and you might start to realize that there is more to making a good marking dog than just having parents that mark well.
> Lynn


I don't care what you say, that right there was a dang good post. I really needed that, it goes down as one of the nuggets you pick up on this site in my book.

Thanks


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Sorry to say I never had the pleasure of watching Mac , but I owned his grand daughter , and that was enough for me .I threw birds for his son , Chavez , at an open . God willing , I will own a dog of a like talent in this life . Made me a believer in genetics . That kind of talent just doesn't come along ,its planned , with a purpose .As it should be .........


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I have one of his grandkids out of Lost-N-Found in a Texas town.

The trainer told me he marks really well. I don't have enough experience with retrievers to say whether he was right or not. The only problem I have with him is open water/field blinds. He doesn't trust my cast, if he doesn't see a place for a bird to hide.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Fetch - Hold! said:


> After Marvins post on the Cosmo thread I noticed a couple of comments on subsequent posts stating that Cosmo could not mark.. Marvin did not say Cosmo could not mark. He did say he rated him 4th or 5th on a truck full of very good dogs. That doesn’t mean he was a poor marker, it just says he was not the best. Something else you should consider is that Cosmo’s marking would probably have been better if he had had better line manners. If the Olson’s had thought less about “cute” and more about “control” when he was a pup the creeping may not have been such an issue. I’m saying this because many of you have Cosmo pups and you can learn a good lesson from someone else’s experiences. If you want a good marking dog you are going to have to have very good control at the line. The reason you need that control is because the dog cannot mark well without your help. He doesn’t know which bird is going to be thrown next and if you are a good handler he is going to take he cues from your movements to decide which gun to move to next.
> Poor control, sloppy handling and letting your dog heel too far forward all contribute to problems that are commonly blamed on the dog such as creeping, switching, head swinging	and launching for the wrong bird and all these problems can hurt a dog’s ability to mark.
> If you want a perfect example of how this works when done properly just stand behind Patton for a few series.
> You will learn a new appreciation for proper heeling and you might start to realize that there is more to making a good marking dog than just having parents that mark well.
> Lynn


This is a very good post.

My .02, I'd rather have the 5th best marker on some trucks than the #1 marker on others. Everything is relative.

Lisa


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## TXduckdog (Oct 17, 2007)

RodneyB46 said:


> out of all the dogs lean mac has sired,which of those seemed to inhiert the ablity to pass on the title "proven producer of great dogs".any in paticular that we can say man that dog there has produced a ton of great dogs. out of all of macs sons,which would you choose to be the best producer?



Kind of hard to tell just yet....a sire needs to be judged over a good period of time. In order to judge consistency, lots of litters need to hit the ground.

Also, the dogs field performance will determine how often he is bred.

I have a son of Mac but he has not been trialed. But his 3 litters have produced quite a few wonderful HT dogs. So a fair amount of "re-producibility" is evident.

I would think the Pattons and Cosmos of the world have to be high on the list.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Max producing sons - Ford, Chavez


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

Angie B said:


> No other dog in the last 15 years have had such a impact on our FT dogs....
> 
> Angie


Absolutely !

Marty


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

While training with our HRC club last summer I met a super older couple that had been in the FT curcuit for around 30 years or so. They said that they watched Lean Mac train quite a few times and was nothing spectacular when training, But put him on the line when it counted and there were few better, In there Opinion.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Mark Sehon said:


> Max producing sons - Ford, Chavez


Ritz produced a few FC dogs, I believe.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Our area always competed against Lardy's truck several weekends during the season. Contrary to popular belief he couldn't walk on water, but Maxx seemed to be more consistent than many titled dogs. He did seem to add a positive conformation.


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

Hookset said:


> Ritz produced a few FC dogs, I believe.


Chavez, Ritz, Prize, Ford, Fargo after those 5 you also have Tiger McBunn, Chubby Mac, and Dust Devil Shoots the Moon.

Marty


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## allydeer (May 11, 2008)

Did Anybody Ever Hunt Him Or Was His Life Spent On A Truck????


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Richard Halstead said:


> Our area always competed against Lardy's truck several weekends during the season. Contrary to popular belief he couldn't walk on water, -------------


    

Several years back I met a horse race person, Rick Pabst of Pabst Blue Ribbon fame, who is a horse breeder. During our conversation I mentioned I liked to read & he suggested I read "Horse of a Different Color" by the early owner-breeder of Monarchos & "Stud" about the marketing of stud horses in the upper reaches of horse racing. When I finished all I could think of was Lean Mac & the marketing. Try it, if you disagree, PM me. 

Lean Mac was not the 1st hot derby dog that Sherwin had tried to make into flavor of the month, but was his most successful. I just believe a lot of the judges could not get beyond the hype & the dog got the benefit of the doubt all to often. 

I ran against Lean Mac in his early career & for the life of me cannot get over the adulation shown on these threads for a dog no one saw run. Had you seen the real thing you might be more reserved in your praise. I stood in the holding blind at Sun Valley as he was running the 3rd series H2O blind & felt he had failed the test. Poor iniitial line, crabbing to the water (saw that in one of those $2,500 pups), hack & chop - was later told the 3rd series was spectacular compared to the 8th series H2O blind. Also saw him quit on many a H2O blind after he was titled when he was running our circuit - & on a Water Quad watched him blow bubbles in the middle of the pond with nary a thought where bird #3 was, let alone #4. 

It can best be summed up in this comment by someone who should know - get a black dog from the pound that looks like a Field Bred labrador, breed him to 100 good bitches, place the pups as the Lean Mac pups have been placed & you'll have everyone in the country wanting to breed to this non descript product of the local pound. 

The product of good hype, regards!!!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> Several years back I met a horse race person, Rick Pabst of Pabst Blue Ribbon fame, who is a horse breeder. During our conversation I mentioned I liked to read & he suggested I read "Horse of a Different Color" by the early owner-breeder of Monarchos & "Stud" about the marketing of stud horses in the upper reaches of horse racing. When I finished all I could think of was Lean Mac & the marketing. Try it, if you disagree, PM me.
> 
> Lean Mac was not the 1st hot derby dog that Sherwin had tried to make into flavor of the month, but was his most successful. I just believe a lot of the judges could not get beyond the hype & the dog got the benefit of the doubt all to often.
> 
> ...



So you lost to him then? 

/Paul


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I actually think the relevant number for Lean Mac is 149 -- the current number of champions that he has sired according to Good Dog Info. I don't think they have been the product of judges wearing rose colored glasses or, despite the comments of some, a by-product of four gazillion breedings.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So you lost to him then?


Actually beat him on his home grounds in the Derby at Kamloops - with good judging would have been a double header in a double Derby. 



YardleyLabs said:


> I don't think


    --- I & many like me watched him run - this is a consensus opinion from people who play the game.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Marvin S said:


> I .. breed ..to ..good bitches.. & ..want.. to .. pound.!!!


Just to show I can do partial quotes also.


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

What I find fascinating is that the talent pool for some of the top rated FT and HT pedigrees has so many of the same recurring names. I am new to this only a couple of years, and have a couple of dogs that have some of the usual suspects in the 3 & 5 generation pedigree. The stories of the observations of folks who competed against those names is one of the real treasures guys like y'all pass along to folks like me who have dogs with Maxx in their genetics. Funny thing is when I read some of the quirks I understand better where they came from. So keep the stories and observations coming, the good, the bad and the funny too. Thanks for sharing.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

YardleyLabs said:


> Just to show I can do partial quotes also.


I did a partial quote because that was the only part of your post that would be verifiable. 

The 1st year Lean Mac breedings appeared on the year end Derby List their were 18 pups by 17 different bitches. While not a gazillion, it was certainly an unusual amount of sex by one stud. I believe I've already addressed the placing with moneyed owners. 

Some of us do things besides read the Daily record maker, Regards


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Marvin you are a hoot. It can become a little tiresome reading of only the good points.

Nevertheless for fun, name one near perfect dog?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> The product of good hype, regards!!!


Marvin, I think you are 100% right on Lean Mac getting hyped. When Sherwin Scott was up here he was bragging how he’d never had to handle Lean Mac on a mark. That day he should have as the dog was lost well over 100 yards behind the long punch bird that I threw. I thought at the time that Sherwin Scott sounded like a salesman hyping the dog to recoup the cost of the dog.

I didn’t see but heard about the water blinds at the 1st nat’l am he won. Leonard Ferucci said his water blind problems were man made and to look at the underlying talent of the dog, the part that his puppies would get from him. I saw Lean Mac in 3 trials and I didn’t see anything great. Good, but not anything to hype as greater than other dogs. Len thought a little differently than me.

I was on Len’s waiting list for a pup from his FC AFC CNFC CAFC Chena River No Surprise. Len could have bred her to that dog pound dog you were talking about and I would have still bought a pup from her. She was the toughest bitch I’ve ever seen. I wanted him to breed to Super Tanker again but instead he went with Lean Mac. Len kept Chavez, I got Pricey, and Sherwin Scott got NFC Prize. Sherwin also got another one who didn’t do anything. When I first took Pricey to Gonia he said that he hadn't seen anything good out of Lean Mac. Pricey was his first. That was one wonderful litter.

Lean Mac was hyped. He was major hyped but he actually lived up to the hype IMO. Who would have believed then that he would go on to sire the number of FC’s he did? I don’t think Max was the best dog in his generation like Auggie is in his, but he’s the most prolific stud in any generation of retriever field trial dogs. Who woulda thunk it then? 

I forget how exactly Joe Namath worded it but didn't he say something like, "It ain't braggin if you can actually do it?"


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Aussie said:


> Marvin you are a hoot. It can become a little tiresome reading of only the good points.
> 
> *Nevertheless for fun, name one near perfect dog*?


2X NAFC CNFC FC AFC River Oaks Corky.....and yes I did get to see him run

NAFC Ray's Rascal ...and yes he could mark(major understatement)


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

I know of stories about both these dogs that would clearly indicate they weren't "near perfect". But since Corky is the all-time high pt dog, he was close enough for me. And since this thread is about LM, I'd say LM has certainly proven to be a better producer.


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

Marvin, I enjoy your stories as much as the next guy but it doesn't sound like you thought much of cosmo or mac? So who did you think much of, Lottie?


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Some of those who decided to breed their good females to Maxx, knew the dog quite well, and knew Sherwin, also. These are people with equally strong opinions and personalities. Do you really think they were influenced so much by hype???

No dog wins every weekend, at least in that circuit. And, Lardy was the right trainer for Maxx, enough said.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i have tried to stay off this board for sometime now but i have to put my 2 cents worth in on this thread. i have had six pups out of lean mac and all six made fc/afcs. no wash outs. nuff said!


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

kip said:


> i have tried to stay off this board for sometime now but i have to put my 2 cents worth in on this thread. i have had six pups out of lean mac and all six made fc/afcs. no wash outs. nuff said!


I'm curious what the bitch lines were. Titled or brood bitchs?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I was just thinking that the raw number of FC dogs produced by a given stud was much less relevant than the percentage of his total offspring that were titles, and along comes Kips comment...

I can't imagine the number of factors that would go into the latter version of the assesment, not knowing who owned/trained so many thousands of pups, so I suppose it is what it is.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Some of those who decided to breed their good females to Maxx, knew the dog quite well, and knew Sherwin, also. These are people with equally strong opinions and personalities. Do you really think they were influenced so much by hype???
> 
> No dog wins every weekend, at least in that circuit. And, Lardy was the right trainer for Maxx, enough said.


I've stayed off this thread for specific reasons. However, just wanted to ask what was meant by this post.

Maxx was never on Lardy's truck until AFTER he won a Nat'l Am title. 

Don Remein took Maxx from a derby dog to a Nat'l Winner.

WRL


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

kip said:


> i have tried to stay off this board for sometime now but i have to put my 2 cents worth in on this thread. i have had six pups out of lean mac and all six made fc/afcs. no wash outs. nuff said!


I think I've said it before but I'll just remind you that you get to pick my next puppy for me.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

achiro said:


> I think I've said it before but I'll just remind you that you get to pick my next puppy for me.


 all but two of them where the leftovers.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

WRL said:


> I've stayed off this thread for specific reasons. However, just wanted to ask what was meant by this post.
> WRL





Marvin S said:


> Had you seen the real thing you might be more reserved in your praise. I stood in the holding blind at Sun Valley as he was running the 3rd series H2O blind & felt he had failed the test. Poor iniitial line, crabbing to the water (saw that in one of those $2,500 pups), hack & chop - was later told the 3rd series was spectacular compared to the 8th series H2O blind. Also saw him quit on many a H2O blind after he was titled when he was running our circuit - & on a Water Quad watched him blow bubbles in the middle of the pond with nary a thought where bird #3 was, let alone #4.





Howard N said:


> I didn’t see but heard about the water blinds at the 1st nat’l am he won. Leonard Ferucci said his water blind problems were man made


 Mr. Lardy fixed some of those problems. Did he not???


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Aussie said:


> Marvin you are a hoot. It can become a little tiresome reading of only the good points.
> 
> Nevertheless for fun, name one near perfect dog?


I'm just trying to inject a dose of reality into these adulation threads. Then the newby's will have a faint understanding of the trip they forgot to plan. 

In the case of the "creepers" the rule book states - 2. The function of a Non-Slip Retriever is to seek & retrieve "fallen" game when ordered to do so. He should sit quietly on line or in the blind, walk at heel, or assume any station designated by his handler until sent to retrieve. When ordered, a dog should retrieve quickly & briskly without unduly disturbing too much ground, & should deliver tenderly to hand. He should then await further orders.

That & the paragraph following fairly well sums up what you should look for in a dog. 

When the issue is allowed to exist the owner is saying I am above the rules, my dog is not trainable. IMO. 



Howard N said:


> When I first took Pricey to Gonia he said that he hadn't seen anything good out of Lean Mac. Pricey was his first. That was one wonderful litter.


Unfortunately, I deleted the part about LM hunting in the hinterlands at a trial you judged. I consider you a good dog person, were there more judges like yourself holding the book there would be different dogs going to the winners circle, IMO. But that's a subject for another thread. 



bonbonjovi said:


> 2X NAFC CNFC FC AFC River Oaks Corky.....and yes I did get to see him run
> 
> NAFC Ray's Rascal ...and yes he could mark(major understatement)


Bon - I agree with you & will add FC-AFC Code Blue, NFC-AFC Butte's Blue Moon to that group. None without their issues early on but the issues were resolved prior to the dogs being exhibited. BTW, have seen them all run. & competed against all of them.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Mr. Lardy fixed some of those problems. Did he not???


I saw him run the Nat'l the year before he won and he ran a very very nice trial for the most part.

I won't say what did or could have happened to the dog before or between the Remein to Lardy transfer but obviously a few people (namely three judges) thought he did a good enough job to win a Nat'l.

WRL


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

WRL said:


> Don Remein took Maxx from a derby dog to a Nat'l Winner. WRL


Don Remien has had great success with dogs - but Dennis Robbins deserves a little credit for LM's early training.



cakaiser said:


> . Do you really think they were influenced so much by hype???


YES - they are peddling puppies so want something that will sell. 



Howard N said:


> Leonard Ferucci said his water blind problems were man made and to look at the underlying talent of the dog, the part that his puppies would get from him. I saw Lean Mac in 3 trials and I didn’t see anything great. Good, but not anything to hype as greater than other dogs. Len thought a little differently than me.


See above - the dog had issues that were not man made. BTW, the "bubble blowing" was long after he had left Remien. Len said a lot of things that required the "grain of salt" qualifier. But that's why we get different dogs - we have different opinions of what makes a good dog just that.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

marvn have all of your dogs always been perfect on every test they have ever attempted?


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

kip said:


> marvn have all of your dogs always been perfect on every test they have ever attempted?


Good question. Surely, Marvin, you have made several FC and/or AFC's with your keen ability to judge talent in dogs. Am I right?


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I will be sure and tell Lynn DuBose, next time I see her, that Marvin says she was influenced by Sherwin's hype and needing to sell her puppies. 

Because, why else breed Hattie to Maxx?


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Thanks Lean Mac it would have been a boring last couple years with out you.
________
Body science


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Lean Mac ended his career with 14 wins, 109.5 Open points, and 76 amateur points along with his national wins and excluding his Canadian points. That's a pretty strong record, but less than many other dogs that never won a national. As with most FT dogs, it also means that he lost to other dogs most of the times that he ran. 

I never had the chance to see Lean Mac run, but I've watched a number of other "great" dogs. Sometimes you see what makes them great and sometimes you wonder why they're there at all. It's a tough sport and sometimes the difference between a blue and a green is not obvious. This is evident every year in the "low" point counts for high point dogs. Good breeding, good training, and good handling prevent any single dog from truly dominating the field. I think that it also mitigates the extent to which judges are star struck at any particular event. Otherwise Auggie would certainly have won a few nationals. 

Lean Mac's record is what it is. And the dogs he sired that ended up watching re-runs on television doesn't change the large numbers of dogs that he sired that went on to become champions. On that basis alone he has certainly earned a top place in the history of the breed and our sport. Was he the best in trials? His record says not, but he was still pretty darn good.


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## JamesTannery (Jul 29, 2006)

I wonder as I sit here reading this thread, not knowing much about any of the field trial dogs, except from what I've read on threads like this one, if pups out of LM got more attention and more opportunities in training because of the "hype" than your average run- of-the-mill FC/AFC. Not to mention, but would LM probably sired more dogs than any other sire?

Forgive my ignorance, maybe just been around hunting dogs too long. I sure do get a kick reading about all of them though.
________
Suzuki DL650 V-Strom history


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

JamesTannery said:


> Not to mention, but would LM probably sired more dogs than any other sire?


*YES!!!* By a *VERY LARGE *MARGIN. ;-)


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I judged Maxx on more then one occasion and ran against him on more then one occasion.
I also saw him run his first trial at Midwest after Mike got him on his truck. These were my observations. At the Midwest Trial he ran up to the line ahead of Mike, and once on the line he certainly had "happy feet" , it was obvious he had line manner issues. Some time went by and watched him run again, the line manner issues seemed to have been brought under control under Mike's training (Mike Lardy) He won an Open under us . and he won it very clean at a trial at Manitowoc , Wisconsin. He also had some difficulty a few times later when I judged him ( they are only dogs). In my opinion he was a very nice dog. In my opinion no matter how many times he was bred, he was a great sire! I have trained, owned and bred to "Chavez's little brother) as Prize was once called, and Chavez. The first litter from Chavez didn't get in the right homes. I have trained/owned sold etc a number of Prize's "get", that have produced more then a few FC/AFC's. I have at present two of Maxx's granddaughter from a Prize daughter with different sires. They are nice. 

There used to be some scuttlebutt back and forth between Sherwin and Mary about Lottie Vrs Maxx and who had the most Derby Points Canadian Junior (derby) Maxx, Lottie American. It was a no win in my opinion, Lottie had the most Derby Points! period !American!

Having said all of the above it would be an honor for me or anyone to have owned and campaigned Maxx, he was a "nice dog". I believe he contributed greatly to the gene pool and was a "great sire"!!! 

I think the credit for the second half of his training should go to Mike Lardy! I am not familiar with his earlier training before Sherwin aquired him. My opinion.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well LM and Cosmo weren't perfect, but heck, I'd settle for one like em any day.....



/Paul


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Lean Mac was like the prolific stallion Storm Cat, what a life to have been bred to all those hot females/bitches just like Storm Cat being bred to all those mares...getting paid to reproduce day after day, sometimes more than once a day....thats why I want to be reincarnated as a prolific stud dog....heck I would probably howl too


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## TXduckdog (Oct 17, 2007)

ramblinmaxx said:


> Chavez, Ritz, Prize, Ford, Fargo after those 5 you also have Tiger McBunn, *Chubby Mac,* and Dust Devil Shoots the Moon.
> 
> Marty



Ahhh....Chubby Mac....now there was a dog. Left us way to soon.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> along with his national wins and excluding his Canadian points.


Just a technical correction here; to say LM had National wins would mean that he was 2xNFC. LM was 2xNAFC.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> Just a technical correction here; to say LM had National wins would mean that he was 2xNFC. LM was 2xNAFC.



Yep, he sucked....

/Paul


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Howard N said:


> She was the toughest bitch I’ve ever seen. I wanted him to breed to Super Tanker again but instead he went with Lean Mac. Len kept Chavez, I got Pricey, and Sherwin Scott got NFC Prize. Sherwin also got another one who didn’t do anything. When I first took Pricey to Gonia he said that he hadn't seen anything good out of Lean Mac. Pricey was his first. That was one wonderful litter.
> 
> Howard or anyone else, tell me about another pup from that litter, Chena River Wild Lady. Was she like her dam(power and size), who trained her, and what happened to her? We have 3 of her 7 week old grandsons flying into town next week.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> Howard N said:
> 
> 
> > She was the toughest bitch I’ve ever seen. I wanted him to breed to Super Tanker again but instead he went with Lean Mac. Len kept Chavez, I got Pricey, and Sherwin Scott got NFC Prize. Sherwin also got another one who didn’t do anything. When I first took Pricey to Gonia he said that he hadn't seen anything good out of Lean Mac. Pricey was his first. That was one wonderful litter.
> ...


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

WRL said:


> Pricey's real name is.....(drum roll here......) FC AFC Chena River Wild Lady.
> 
> Howard trained and owned her until I believe shortly after she finished her derby career. I believe she was on and off Jim Gonia's truck through that time.
> 
> ...


Wonderful! Welcome to the family Howard, kind of like step-inlaws.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> I'm just trying to inject a dose of reality into these adulation threads. Then the newby's will have a faint understanding of the trip they forgot to plan.
> 
> In the case of the "creepers" the rule book states - 2. The function of a Non-Slip Retriever is to seek & retrieve "fallen" game when ordered to do so. He should sit quietly on line or in the blind, walk at heel, or assume any station designated by his handler until sent to retrieve. When ordered, a dog should retrieve quickly & briskly without unduly disturbing too much ground, & should deliver tenderly to hand. He should then await further orders.
> 
> ...


Now that I have gone off topic.....might as well continue. Marvin, I think I understand what you are suggesting regarding line manners.Our judges select order of pick up, order of marks, blinds before marks. 

As a result before choosing a US field bred lab puppy many US contacts suggested American dogs may not be best for our criteria. Sometimes I think they are right. Never at training though LOL. 

Regardless I have asked myself many times are line manners genetic or a result of training? There have been some studies in the genetics of vocal dogs.


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## brwndg/yelladawg (Jul 17, 2008)

I just was looking back at my pups pedigree & noticed she has Lean Mac as her grandfather. I cannot believe I missed this. Very cool. Now I know where she gets some of her attitude from


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## Chad Clagg (Jul 8, 2006)

Why do ya'll think we never heard that much from Lean Mac's sire Waldorfs High Tech because he was mostly campaigned in Canada?


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

CC said:


> Why do ya'll think we never heard that much from Lean Mac's sire Waldorfs High Tech because he was mostly campaigned in Canada?


Max's parents where both in Canada. The parents where breed a couple of times trying to reproduce another Max. They never turned out to be a as great of a dog as Max. This is what I have been told. 

I think Max is one in a million. What made him a great dog was he reproduced himshelf a lot of the time. Max was not a winner every weekend, but he was a great sire.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

CC said:


> Why do ya'll think we never heard that much from Lean Mac's sire Waldorfs High Tech because he was mostly campaigned in Canada?



CC,

Most of the time nobody is listening......that is why ya'll never heard of him.
There is a HEAP of very good dog flesh north of the border. 
Heck there is even a Field Champion that is sired by a Conformation Champion

John


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

CC said:


> Why do ya'll think we never heard that much from Lean Mac's sire Waldorfs High Tech because he was mostly campaigned in Canada?


Because he never really produced that well. Threw very few titled dogs for the amount of times he was bred.

He (Tech) was obviously also a talented dog. He was a 2 time Nat'l winner.

I agree with Drakehaven about there being lots of talent north of the border. Both of my old girls were sired by Canadian Nat'l Winners and I could not have been more happy with them or what they produced.

WRL


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> CC, Heck there is even a Field Champion that is sired by a Conformation Champion
> 
> John


And his name is ..............?


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Ken Archer said:


> And his name is ..............?



Ken,

Endless hours on the internet........................................ $0.00
Subscription to RFTN................................................... $42.00 a year
Subscription to Good Dog Info. ..................................... $72.00 a year
Phone calls to strangers in order track down dogs............. $500.00 + a year 

Photographic memory and the ability to use the sources listed above to amass a wealth of knowledge on the Labrador breed....................................PRICELESS.

Call me.


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

TXduckdog said:


> Kind of hard to tell just yet....a sire needs to be judged over a good period of time. In order to judge consistency, lots of litters need to hit the ground.
> 
> Also, the dogs field performance will determine how often he is bred.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked Patton, who in fact is a LM son, has sired zero titled dogs, and last time I checked, Cosmo is not a Lean Mac offspring. 

So I'd say you need to revise your list of top LM offspring as sires


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## Ragin Storm Retrievers (Jan 9, 2006)

Actually maybe you need to do a little research of your own! Patton has at least 2 titled offspring now with several more close. Jerry Wilks who owns AFC Skeeter might be the High Point Amateur female this year. If she's not, she's mighty close. I think in the neighborhood of 20 or more AA points this year. Also, AFC Saber. Both dogs ran this years National Am.


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