# Grrrrrrrrrrowling Chessie -- force fetch help...



## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

OK, you all can laugh at me...

About three days ago, I was commenting on a chessie that I'm training. He's actually a super nice dog. He had ONE issue prior to his arrival here about two months ago... a big issue. He is 13 mos, intact, comes from a good breeding (don't ask, I don't remember, but can find out it it may be helpful). He had a habit of barking, snarling, and charging at visitors to his house and I believe on 2-3 or three occasions trying to bite and/or making contact with them.

So, that's awful, right? I know... But he comes for training and when he's out and about with me and at training, he's perfectly fine. Put him in a kennel run and have a stranger go by and he's nasty. A dog goes by, no problem unless the dog bows up on him from outside the kennel.

Fast forward. We've had two months of AWESOME field work. He's doing marks he shouldn't be able to do yet. Has a great attitude. We've been managing him with no problems. We are very careful with him around other dogs and he only plays with a boykin that is his "sister" -- yes a chessie and a boykin. LOL

We started hold last week and he did really well right off the bat. A couple of times he dropped, I gave him a little pop under the chin then went back to hold. No problem. In fact, I made the comment about three days ago: "Burt loves me" because he was just really happy in his lesson, stared at me intently (NO, not aggressively!!). His tail wagged in big happy sweeps, NOT short, tight aggressive ones and we were having a great time learning hold.

Today... We were doing a final review of hold. He's walking and turning nicely, stopping, sitting, holding, etc. And we're about done with the lesson... He drops the bumper. I give him a good pop because we're well into the lesson -- NOT anything over the top, just a nice firm pop with a firm no (no yelling or anything) and the sucker GROWLS at me...

Now, I've FF'd a handful of chessies, no problem. I knew given his history that there might be a problem, but was surprised to have not seen it until today.

When he growled, I gave him a quick yank of the collar, told him quiet and sit. He continued, and I repeated a little more firmly and he stopped. I put the bumper in his mouth (trying to not be at all nervous, lol) and off we went, no problem.

NOW... My concern is this... I have never had an aggression issue during force fetch. I've had a couple of dogs grab my arm, but not in aggression, simply because it was the closest thing and I had a white handler's jacket on (and it didn't happen repeatedly and you could tell the dog knew it had the wrong thing).

I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in getting bitten. I feel that the chances are good, when we start ear pinch, that he may try something. I do NOT like the idea of that. And I typically would not waste my time with a dog showing aggression... HOWEVER he is otherwise the sweetest, most compliant dog. His field work is really super. He's a lot of fun to be around -- something I didn't expect... Except if he tries to bite my arm or face off!!

So... I have no experience with this. Someone tell me how to proceed.

I want to do at least one more day of walking and holding so that if I get more growling, I have a more controlled stable way to correct it.

My other idea I thought of tonight was to put a long line on him and have a helper hold the end so that if he were to try something and I lost control (I've had some very feisty dogs and have never lost control) that he could be pulled away.

I have never had a problem controlling even the largest writhing dogs in force fetch. My concern is that I've never had one try to attack me. I've gotten a few tooth marks in me from the normal course of owning a dog kennel... Nothing major, but I've never had a dog LOOKING to bite me (except one case of a psycho bernese mountain dog that came out of nowhere and grabbed my arm).

So this is different... I want to continue his training because he's talented and I otherwise really enjoy him. This is the first time he's offered to growl at me while I was working with him. I was really disappointed. The first few weeks after he arrived, I did small temperament type tests on him -- pulling his ears, stepping on his toes, pinching him, whatever.. And had not had a problem.

My plan is this:

1) make sure the collar is fit perfectly so it can't twist on my hand and so that I can maintain control
2) have a helper with a taut long line that can pull back in the event he tries anything
3) have helper with water hose so he can be sprayed to calm down so neither of us get hurt
4) take things slow, be fair, but firm, restrain him at the first sign of any growling - do not proceed with pinch/fetch if he's growling (but not rewarding the growling by stopping either -- so he'll need some sort of correction and right now, that is limited to a collar shake type thing in my mind)...

So, for those of you that have been bitten in FF, any pearls of wisdom? 

He had not offered to bite me. But I'm going in expecting the worse. If it gets ugly, I won't train him. And I'll hate it, but I can't afford to get hurt, especially right now... And really EVER; it's not worth it.

Sorry this is so long... Thanks for any advice.

-K


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

ps -- I do force fetch freestyle -- no table, no cable... Maybe it's time to revive my force fetch line??? hmmmmm....


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

My opinion, either you get the bear or the bear get's you. I don't nessecarily think this is breed specific but you happen to have a big aggressive dominant dog on your hands and he has given you fair warning.
Your decision to make is whether your willing to have this particular showdown or not. If you decide it's worth the risk then take all the precautions you mention in your post and make sure you put yourself in a position to make clear in no uncertain terms that at the end of the day there will be one leader and that would be you. Unless you are 100 percent committed to seeing this through to completion no matter what he throws at you then I would call it a day and move on.


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

Kristie, I've only been training for about three years. I do have two chessies, one of which spent about nine months with a pro that trains mostly peaks.. When he ff a chessie he uses a toe hitch instead of the ear pinch. He explained to me that alot of chessies just won't tolerate you pinching their ears. They take it personally and do much better with the toe hitch. I had never heard or read this, but he's trained some very successful dogs. Anyway good luck to you


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

kristie,
If he were mine I would go through the initial stages of "pinch" by short tying him (6 inches) to a wall or pole to control head movemant and also wear leather gloves and a Carhart. I would do this at least until he learns how to turn the pressure off snapping out at the bumper and not your face or arm. Also, I would continue to routinely review OB perhaps before each session to remind him you are in the dominant position. 
Good Training,
Peake

PS Show zero negative emotion/nervousness if possible!
________
Weed vaporizer


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

I also just remembered that yesterday we were talking about getting one of those forearm guards for about $20 at sports authority... i hate even thinking of going through this much trouble...


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

Kristie, please post pictures of your training attire before you go into combat


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Hi.Maybe just me...but its not worth it....If any potential student has a history like that,and he growls at me ....he gets sent home with a letter form me,warning the client of the potential problems interacting with humans.I too FF on the ground ...standing on the rope.My face is fairly close to the dog.No matter how sweet they are they can still kill us whenever they go over the edge.I now you are smart enough not to get hurt....but as a pro trainer,and the dog having been trained by you,if the dog ends up hurting someone else,it could come back to you.Like I said ...not worth it.Good luck.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Kristie,

We have never had an aggression issue on the table when doing FF, but to ensure that any potential bite issues were avoided, we have used the toe pinch versus ear pinch for the exact reason that your hand, arm and face are away from the dog and the potential of a bite.

Sue


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Kristie you are too good to be fooling with this dog.
If you are in a tight and really need the $ which I doubt, pm me and I will give you a loan.
Life is too short.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Kristie, I'm most concerned about your concern. I've watched you work, and it is your incredible self confidence that enables you to get the results you do. If you are concerned about this dog's reactions enough to post it here, you are really worried. The dog is going to pick up on that immediately and there may be hell to pay. I agree with Mike Perry, let this one go, it just isn't worth it.


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

I have seen people do this, and have done something similar. Put out 2 steel fence posts, about 3 feet apart. Now you can run a chain from each post to the collar. This greatly limits the dogs movement. I did this a couple of years ago with a 100 pound lab that had the goal of just manually ripping my arm off with every pinch of the ear. After 3 or 4 days I couldn't handle it, so I did the posts, and it worked pretty well. Good luck.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Kristie,

This is not all that atypical with an Alpha CBR, he is testing you and it sounds like you passed if you kept your dominance. I have an 8 year old that is great in the field but once in a while still tests to make sure I am still the Alpha in the pack. Never bitten or really even tried just tried to assert dominance in the manner you describe.

Your approach seems valid maybe a little over cautious but there is nothing wrong with that at all. I would further suggest giving the dog a break for a few days from the process. This usually works wonders with a CBR, they work on their schedule so trying to shove them through the "program" usually doesn't work well. 

If you have gained the dogs respect you may also see him try avoidance by shutting down on you, crawl between your legs and lay down, no gos, etc. 

To those who said it isn't worth it, please don't take CBRs in for training this is not all that atypical and certainly not worth giving up on a dog.


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## Joyce (May 31, 2004)

Don't think you are strong enough to handle this dog.....IF you decide to FF make sure you don't show any fear or reservations or you WILL get bit. ( Been there done that) Being a female we are just not strong enough to hold them. Make sure you have someone with you at all times. I'm not saying he will bite but he has given you the indications that he will and it is better to be safe than sorry. This behavior is NOT acceptiable and should of been nipped in the bud from the get go. 
Just went thru the same thing with my 9 month old female and my husband took over because I could not hold her. She was like a croc rolling and doing the death roll. Almost broke my arm. He got her thru FF and I am now doing her training. She is the sweetest thing but didn't want her ear pinched. 
Also, DON'T get your face near his because if he does bit he's not going to care where or who he bits.....once a peake knows he can get away with anything its too late...they NEVER forget!
I have had chessies for 21 years, I'm no expert but.......


Joyce ( Blackwater Chesapeakes)


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## Gene (May 6, 2004)

Sounds to me like this dog is a real problem just waiting to happen. If this were a post about a dog who had bitten or even tried to bite someone 2 or 3 times most answers you would get would be get rid of the dog or even something more drastic. I can't see continuing training him. If I were the owner I wouldn't keep him in training- I wouldn't keep him period. I don't want to spend money on a dog that shows these aggressive signs toward people. I don't want that liability. 

If I were a pro trainer I wouldn't continue training him. Risking that he would tear me up one day, one of my helpers, a visitor, or another clients dog. You now know the dog is aggressive- let something happen and he get to a clients dog or a visitor and injures him then see how you like explaining it. Yes I knew the dog was aggressive and posted on the internet that I'm concerned about training him and that he is aggressive to other dogs and visitors. Why would you want that liability? We all take risks everyday but why take one that you know is much more likely to have bad results? I admire your effort and desire to help a possibly talented dog in the field but I don't think it is worth all the risks.

Gene


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

You might try approaching the FF the way we do. Instead of the typical table/cable system, we sit on a bucket in front of sturdy kennel fencing. 

The dog has on a flat buckled collar, fitted tightly. The D-ring of the ollar is attached to the kennel fence with one of those brass double latches, so the head can not move around much. 

The back end is wrapped with a snug fitting weight lifting belt, these also have a d-ring which is also attached to the kennel fence with the dog in a standing position. 

Now the dog cannot back up, move forward, sit down, lie down, or dance around. You have complete control and can maintain your safe distance from the biting end. Gradually as the dog learns to deal with the force the restrictions are removed.

I hope that helps if you continue to work with this dog.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

The first thing I was going to say is don’t put him on a table, you might lose your head but I see you don’t use one anyway. I would definitely use some form of restraint so you can get away from him if need be. I use to have a nice table with a cable, but only really needed the cable once and I was glad I had it. If you are as confident in him as you say you are I would give it a try using the plan you laid out and without a doubt make sure you have a helper there just in case. Good luck

BTW- one addition you might want to make to your “fighting gear” is a pair of fish cleaning gloves. They are kind of a chain mail (not the correct spelling I know) that may help keep a tooth from going through your hand….maybe. I know they will stop a catfish spike and there is nothing harder in the world than that….except maybe a chessies head. I saw someone using these for FF and it seemed like a good idea. They sell them at WalMart and such


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

Joyce said:


> Don't think you are strong enough to handle this dog.....(snip)Joyce ( Blackwater Chesapeakes)


Trust me, I can handle him as far as physically restraining him. I've force fetched a ton of dogs of different sizes and strengths. I'm not worried about that part. I'm more worried about my speed, which has also never been an issue... But that's why I want backup. I've held apart two male dogs one in each hand before... Strength has never been an issue with anything with me. Not bragging, but just saying. I just want to hear more about the behavior part that I have minimal experience with and I will not, and have not let him get away with a thing. When he was lunging at people and dogs in his kennel, I would walk right in and correct him. Seems there are different triggers and that's just what I have to figure out and stay on my toes IF I decide to proceed. Thanks for all the great advice.

-K

EDITED TO ADD -- I absolutely will start with some restraint!!!


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Kristie Wilder said:


> .....He had a habit of barking, snarling, and charging at visitors to his house and I believe on 2-3 or three occasions trying to bite and/or making contact with them.
> 
> .....Put him in a kennel run and have a stranger go by and he's nasty.....
> 
> ...


Before I spent time camping at Rex Carr's, I was training daily (Sauvie Island was our second home) with Jerry Patopea who at that time was living with Linda Harger. Fireweed was a young dog then. That was my first exposure to Chessies.

From your description this individual presents defense aggression (per classic definition in the German school of Schutzhund) - that is, aggression is expressed when the dog perceives his personal space is penetrated. We see that more in protection dogs than in sporting breeds. Defense aggression is useful in protection dogs but only if it is in balance with social and prey aggression. Well enough of that.....

Hopefully there is no dominance issue to compound this problem feature, so I will address this as if there is no compounding dominance involved.

Part of what I write below I have learned from Jim Dobbs - making sure I give credit where due. The technique is different from ff sporting dogs because this type of aggression has been bred out of most sporting dogs (well, should have been bred out anyway). For those who don't know, I also have competition Schutzhund or working GSDs.

(1) You can still ear pinch by pinching the outside ear, or the ear away from you. If the dog bites he will turn away from you towards the source of discomfort.

(2) Practice using eye before you get into a ff session with him. Practice for several days so you can observe what kind of behavior to expect when you use eye to control him (by using eye I mean it in the herding context). 

Sidenote: if you elicit aggressive behavior from dog when you use eye, that may mean you have a dominance issue to boot. Second sidenote: if you have not use eye before you may not know your own level of control. Maybe practice it elsewhere first? This is an extremely powerful tool of control for close range work, if you know how to use eye. It would have been better if you've been using eye for a longer while before ff, and shortcutting now may mean it's not as effective. Still, no harm in applying.

(3) While Rex did not personally ff his clients' dogs, he taught me some things about ff I have not seen or read about from any other pro trainers. I have tomes of notes on this. To make a long story short: rather than push a dog of this type into aggressive behavior, stop just before he pulls the trigger, and shove the bumper back into his mouth again, repeating your command.

You may end up with a lot more reps. You can pressure him up to the point of aggression, key word is "up to". This means your reading of your dog must be precise!  Then you compromise, and show him what you expect him to do. Again. And again. And again. Each time, you may be able to apply more pressure, or you may not.

As you know the ff process is not complete unless the command is pressure sealed. At some point in time, longer later on than the average dog, you should be able to apply the maximum amount of pressure and the dog should be responding by directing his aggression towards grabbing the bumper, and later on, other objects - from pure reflex alone.

(4) I wouldn't use water to cool off a hot situation. When a dog's adrenaline is up due to defense stimulus and he is presenting aggression, he won't notice the water, and the water will just put you the trainer on the slippery slope to mud.;-)

If the dog goes off on you, you need to be 6'4'' tall, the collar (not choke collar) needs to be snug enough on the dog so you can hoist him up, all 4 feet at least 2 feet off the ground, and have him dangle for a bit so he can collect his thoughts while in the air .

Otherwise your plan is sound.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> You might try approaching the FF the way we do. Instead of the typical table/cable system, we sit on a bucket in front of sturdy kennel fencing.
> 
> The dog has on a flat buckled collar, fitted tightly. The D-ring of the ollar is attached to the kennel fence with one of those brass double latches, so the head can not move around much.
> 
> ...


This sounds like it might be a good way to start. I think there's a balance somewhere between restraint and freedom of movement. I clipped a client dog's (boarding dog) toenails the other day. He historically is a nasty little booger and tries to eat people when the clip his nails. I've done this maybe a dozen times with different dogs that have nail clipping issues. I simply restrain them just by the collar and don't take their baloney. Usually by the fourth nail, they're calm and I praise them the rest of the way through. But my point in this is... I find that in some cases, if you muzzle and tighten and batten down the hatches, sometimes that creates anxiety and makes the situation worse with some dogs.

But I absolutely feel like I need to start with some restraint. I think your idea is super... It's been so long since I've used a line to FF that I hadn't even thought about it...

-K


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Good idea to have a helper if it got really ugly but here is what I would do. He already growled at you once-strike one. The next time he even looked like he was going to growl or bite I would have him on his back with me on top of him(one of us will probably be bleeding a little) -strike two. If he did it again, strike three he's out of there. Good luck and be careful.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

Kristie, I know you are a very good trainer so don't take this personally. We've had Chesapeakes for over 35 years. We always send them out for force fetching and then do the rest of the training ourselves. Chesapeakes do better on a table. Some Chesapeakes respond better to a toe hitch than an ear pinch. I would send the dog home and recommend to the owner that they find a trainer who is greatly experienced with Chesapeakes to do the job. I can think of one such trainer right there in Valdosta. They are not everyone's breed.


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## Flip (Mar 31, 2005)

Don't think it's a chessie thing, sounds like a dog trying to establish the pecking order. The first time he growled, need to change dominate behavior right then and there. Sounds like a challenge, good luck ,have fun, be careful.


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## GONEHUNTIN' (Sep 21, 2006)

You can get it from any breed. Your own safety is key. On a mean dog, I had three lines on him. Make sure all leads are double swiveled becuse sometimes they'll start rolling on you and can roll up and choke in a rope or chain.

One lead goes from you to his collar. A second goes from *the snap of your lead* a metal fence post. A third goes from a flank strap to a post. Now he can't charge and can't move much.

Always wear leather gloves.

Use a training bumper with a cut off whip or fiberglass handle on it about a foot long so your hand is not near the bumper.

Always use the outside ear. It is impossible for him to twist in and bite you, and if he tries and goes crazy, you can kind of throw him away from you and restrain him with the three leads.

Now, you don't know me, but I have to tell you. If he's really mean, it isn't worth it. I worked on a dog named AFC GAhonk's Moonraker Rebel. We made him an AFC but he was the single meanest dog I have ever seen and chewed up the owner on different occasions. Consider yourself and the owner carefully before you continue with this dog, or at least evaluate him very carefully.


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## Ron Schuna (Jan 22, 2004)

Kristie,

Check your pm's.

Ron


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

labman63 said:


> Good idea to have a helper if it got really ugly but here is what I would do. He already growled at you once-strike one. The next time he even looked like he was going to growl or bite I would have him on his back with me on top of him(one of us will probably be bleeding a little) -strike two. If he did it again, strike three he's out of there. Good luck and be careful.


BAD IDEA !!!!! Read Zipmarc's post there is more going on than a dominance issue.
you do that with 12 week old puppies not full grown Peake's


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Kristie, I've been training and owning Chessies 20 yrs but have never had one growl at me during trianing, neveer mind trying to sink the ivory into my hide. I would seriously consider doing some dominance work with this one, AND dooing FFfrom a stout table. A buddy of mine has one with a 4x4 post on each end supporting the cable (he does the Delmar Smith toe hitch). with that rig, he can if necessary secure the dog to prevent ANY head movement.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> You might try approaching the FF the way we do. Instead of the typical table/cable system, we sit on a bucket in front of sturdy kennel fencing.
> 
> The dog has on a flat buckled collar, fitted tightly. The D-ring of the ollar is attached to the kennel fence with one of those brass double latches, so the head can not move around much.
> 
> ...


I love this idea. ALso, the toe hitch. Two of my labs were toe-hitched for FF. 

He's 13 months and expressing his dominance. It's good that you let him know where you stood. A lot of males, including labs will try it at that age. But, I wouldn't be as forgiving with a chessie. (I'm not forgiving with a lab either- they usually wind up on their backs on the concrete.). He's also territorial aggressive. So, you have a couple of issues going on. 

I know one peake that was as sweet as pie, but became agressive to everyone but one trainer, and his owner. But the dog was dominant over the wife. He'd have to board the dog when he went out of town because the wife couldn't handle him. She was a PETA type. 

Good luck.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

labman63 said:


> _Good idea to have a helper if it got really ugly but here is what I would do. He already growled at you once-strike one. The next time he even looked like he was going to growl or bite I would have him on his back with me on top of him(one of us will probably be bleeding a little) -strike two. If he did it again, strike three he's out of there. Good luck and be careful._





DRAKEHAVEN said:


> BAD IDEA !!!!! Read Zipmarc's post there is more going on than a dominance issue.
> you do that with 12 week old puppies not full grown Peake's


And read Kristie's full description of the dog's relationship with her, too - he is compliant with her and has accepted her as her pack leader. The dog exhibits aggression with strangers around his kennel. That's not dominance. He only growled at her when she invaded his personal sphere.

Identifying the defense aggression and addressing this behavior component is critical to making progress in the ff. Not all aggression is dominance based.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I've FF'd just about every gundog breed out there and while I do think some breeds have traits, at the end of the day each dog is unique. I think since there is a valid safety concern, I would short tie him to beam or something solid and then slow down the process. Putting enough pressure on him to make progress but don'w push him into a panic or "red zone" type situation. Saftety comes first. 

/Paul


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

The tool i would use is a telephone. Telling daddy to come get him. life's too short, and theres too many dogs out there. I don't have time to fool with an aggressive dog, and like it or not, he's established a pattern. not just with you, but at home too. if he were a 45 lb black lab my opinion would be the same. And it's just that; my opinion. Good Luck


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

LESTER LANGLEY said:


> The tool i would use is a telephone. Telling daddy to come get him. life's too short, and theres too many dogs out there. I don't have time to fool with an aggressive dog, and like it or not, he's established a pattern. not just with you, but at home too. if he were a 45 lb black lab my opinion would be the same. And it's just that; my opinion. Good Luck


I can honestly tell you, Bill Sargenti feels the same way!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> I can honestly tell you, Bill Sargenti feels the same way!


I'm willing to bet Patti K would agree as well...

/Paul


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Pat Puwal said:


> Kristie, I know you are a very good trainer so don't take this personally. We've had Chesapeakes for over 35 years. We always send them out for force fetching and then do the rest of the training ourselves. Chesapeakes do better on a table. Some Chesapeakes respond better to a toe hitch than an ear pinch. I would send the dog home and recommend to the owner that they find a trainer who is greatly experienced with Chesapeakes to do the job. I can think of one such trainer right there in Valdosta. They are not everyone's breed.


Is it Wayne? 
I agree. I know one experienced trainer that had her arm ripped open all the way down the inside. Not a Chesapeake but very painful.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

It's very simple.. One of these








And one set of these..


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

so here's an example...

And I'm trying to test the waters, but not be antagonistic.

He's in a kennel where there's an end panel that we kick into place -- just a quick kick with your heel -- occasionally. When I did that just now, he growled and lunged at the kennel gate. I kept kicking and told him to be quiet and sit. I did not back down. He did, although it took about 10 seconds, which is an eternity with something like this so it seems.

Then I continued to kick the kennel and got some low growls without lunging and then no growling at all. I got him out to air. Put him back and kicked the kennel again, he immediately sat.

My prognosis is, yes, this behavior is AWFUL AND dangerous. ANYONE -- which is MOST people -- who will back down is going to exacerbate the behavior. And that will be 99% or more of the people he comes into contact with. But if they don't back down, he will submit. 

I have already told him that I wouldn't trust him around anyone and certainly NEVER any small children. 

I think with more training, he will be more and more controllable. But I don't care what anyone says -- and even though I admire Cesar Milan -- I would never ever ever trust a formerly aggressive dog around small children or really most people. It's not fair to the human beings...

I will make a phone call tonight, discuss it with them. I'm going to review my contract and will come up with some sort of rider or addendum or whatever you call releasing me from liability -- because when they dropped him off they were hoping the behavior would settle down. And I think it will to a degree (and it has) just not to where I would EVER trust him to "greet" anyone or be with small children. I do not want that on my hands.

Thanks all for your great advice and recommendations.

-K


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

Actually, this is what i was thinking of wearing... LOL


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Actually, this is what i was thinking of wearing... LOL


that is WAYYYYYYYYYYY better than my picture!!!!
I actually use to wrestle against a kid who had the headgear in my 1st picture.. scariest thing when you are 10 years old.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> so here's an example...
> 
> And I'm trying to test the waters, but not be antagonistic.
> 
> ...


Not every dog is right for every family. It would seem to me that this dog needs a family or owner who can be continually aware of the danger involved with this particular dog and will be diligent in addressing the behavior. I know you'll do the right thing.

/Paul


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I'm going to review my contract and will come up with some sort of rider or addendum or whatever you call releasing me from liability
> -K


They should assume the liability, not just release you from liability. In other words, the clause needs to state that they will actively defend, indemnify and hold you harmless from all claims arising from the dog. That means pay all the bills - hospital, plastic surgery, lawyers, etc.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

Here's a bite that could have been prevented by a helmet made by the people that made the bite suit:


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

zipmarc said:


> They should assume the liability, not just release you from liability. In other words, the clause needs to state that they will actively defend, indemnify and hold you harmless from all claims arising from the dog. That means pay all the bills - hospital, plastic surgery, lawyers, etc.


Sounds good. Thanks.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Kristie, when I had my dog out in Kansas with a trainer I saw the nicest FF setup I have ever seen in my 50 years around dogs. It was a knee high table with a wire fence panel attched to a outbuilding wall. There was a 4x4 post on each end with a cable run in between. He had a couple of the double snaps like I attach a water bucket to a kennel. He would attach the dogs collar to the fence and the cable. He would take a cotton rope and go around the fence panel and the dog's flank. The dog was now allowed to fight all he wanted but could not go anywhere. He used the Delmer Smith method of toe hitch and While I was there he was working a big Chessie and with the dog fastened like he was he was working the dog from in front of the dog. I was there for a week and saw this everyday and was completely amazed at the results. I now have a similiar setup that I use myself. I do however use the ear pinch on my Labs always pinching the ear away from my face. Just my >02 cents worth......


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## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

Charlie Morgan advocated the " Giant Swing" maybe that will straiten him out.

Good luck,Bryan.


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Kristi 
Since i do own a chessie i know your concerns , mine went through HOLD and Ear pinch , stick and collar fetch ith no problems ,,,,,they do mature slower than labs BUT when they have it your done they retain like an elephant . Trouble is the best mannered dog in the kennel even with strangers .....The worst i have ever been bitten was by a Golden (SOFT) female .

Here is how my grandpaw did FF on all breeds . Get your tie out stake ,,,hook the dog with a strong collar about a foot from the pivot so he can only go in small circles ,,,,next put a pinch on him with a short lead ,,,,now keep your hands back and use the pinch to apply preasure to the bumper ,,,he cant go anywhere ,,,he is between you and the stake ,,,,,,and when you start going to the ground ,,,simply put the lead under your foot and press down .........i have seen pointers , setters , spaniels , labs and CHESSIES yeild quickly to this ...........sorry its so long ,,,,,,hope it helps ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you have any questions pm me and i will call you..................CC


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

I just don't see any realistic positive result coming from training this dog. Who wants to build some contraption/system just to fool with one dog that you can't trust. Again, too many tail wagging, happy to see you, eager to work without bloodshed, dogs out there. Again, just my opinion.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Actually, this is what i was thinking of wearing... LOL


You won't catch me in a suit like that today - it's gonna be 100 degrees. Again.


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## mudflapimmc (Feb 28, 2008)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I also just remembered that yesterday we were talking about getting one of those forearm guards for about $20 at sports authority... i hate even thinking of going through this much trouble...


Might want to invest in a nice pair of welding gloves too!!


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

If the dog is acting in the manner you describe at 13 months, he is going to be a real trip at 18 months or so. I would send him out the gate as fast as I could. He is an accident waiting to happen.

Best Regards,
Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

Kristie, I really hope you don't have to give up on this dog. He is still young. I know that you realize this, but most people don't. Other than their love for retrieving, chessies and labs are two different animals. Some chessies can be very territorial (the protecting of his kennel) Most chessies that I've been around have a much louder bark than bite. Sounds like this dog was an only child. I would hope that spending time with you and other dogs would settle him down. It also sounds like in the two short months that he has made progress. Chessies that are socilalized and brought up correctly are not aggressive. Good luck. I really hope you can get him through this


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## Joyce (May 31, 2004)

Kristie,
I know that you THINK you are strong but if he comes after you, you won't be able to hold him....
Yes, Chessies are protective of their kennels, trucks, people etc. so this IS normal behavior he is showing. The growling part is too ( teenage male syndrom) but what is important is how you handle it. I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT advise you use a dominate down on him. Like I said you are NOT strong enough to hold him. 
Ok, off my soapbox for today!



Joyce


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Send the dog to Ken Bora and have him rope the dog for a while. In the meantime get some maple syrup and enjoy breakfest.


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Lester the contraption as you called it will work with ANY dog ,,its not just a chessie issue ,,,,i have FF Goldens that would make that Chessie look like a cripple cocker spaniel .


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Kristie Wilder said:


> so here's an example...He's in a kennel where there's an end panel that we kick into place -- just a quick kick with your heel -- occasionally. When I did that just now, he growled and lunged at the kennel gate. I kept kicking and told him to be quiet and sit. I did not back down. He did, although it took about 10 seconds, which is an eternity with something like this so it seems.
> 
> Then I continued to kick the kennel and got some low growls without lunging and then no growling at all. I got him out to air. Put him back and kicked the kennel again, he immediately sat.
> 
> .....MOST people -- who will back down is going to exacerbate the behavior.... But if they don't back down, he will submit. .....-K


I didn't have time in the morning to address this incident - wanted to get my training done before the thermometer boiled over again. Well it's on boil, so I am back inside in the air conditioning.....

In this example that Kristie described, to me it's clear cut defense aggression from the dog, not dominance behavior. The dog lunged at the kennel gate because when Kristie kicked it, it probably made a noise, the dog perceived the kennel gate as a threat, his mode of response was to attack it.

By repeatedly kicking it, Kristie was habituating, or acclimatizing, or conditioning, the dog, until eventually the dog was habituated, and no longer perceived the kennel gate as a threat.

Kristie's repeated actions conditioned the dog to the kennel gate being kicked. She didn't "stand her ground" and "dominate" the dog. He didn't "submit" to her. He - very simply - got used to it, stop being fearful of it, and stopped being aggressive by lunging and growling at it.

I just wanted to analyze this situation and sort out the language use, because there was not a dominance-submission issue, and Cesar Milan was not in the loop at all.

Kristie did a great job getting the dog used to the kennel gate being kicked and was able to remove his fear and stop the defense aggression of lunging and growling. It was NOT a dominance-submission situation.

If I've been repeating myself here, I meant to .

What is defense aggression? The classic definition is aggression expressed when a dog perceives threat - a perception that its safety zone is violated. This particular dog seems to have a low threshhold.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> I didn't have time in the morning to address this incident - wanted to get my training done before the thermometer boiled over again. Well it's on boil, so I am back inside in the air conditioning.....
> 
> In this example that Kristie described, to me it's clear cut defense aggression from the dog, not dominance behavior. The dog lunged at the kennel gate because when Kristie kicked it, it probably made a noise, the dog perceived the kennel gate as a threat, his mode of response was to attack it.
> 
> ...


So your saying Kristie was able to prevent the dog from going into the red zone through a procedure eliciting a calm submissive behavior from the dog?

/Paul


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So your saying Kristie was able to prevent the dog from going into the red zone through a procedure eliciting a calm submissive behavior from the dog?/Paul


No, not exactly. I said Kristie got the dog out of the red zone, simply by repeatedly kicking the gate *until the dog just plain got used to it and figured out it was not a threat*.

Once the threat is no longer perceived, the defense aggression stops.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> No, not exactly. I said Kristie got the dog out of the red zone, simply by repeatedly kicking the gate *until the dog just plain got used to it and figured out it was not a threat*.
> 
> Once the threat is no longer perceived, the defense aggression stops.


Exactly, Cesar does it on every show where the dog is obsessed or having issues with something. You condition the dog to whatever object and bring him back to a balanced peaceful state of mind. 

/Paul


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> They should assume the liability, not just release you from liability. In other words, the clause needs to state that they will actively defend, indemnify and hold you harmless from all claims arising from the dog. That means pay all the bills - hospital, plastic surgery, lawyers, etc.


I agree with this, and it should include any claims by Kristie and/or her employees if they should be injured.


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## FetchExpress (May 31, 2006)

Food for thought.... so for those of us that train dogs who might fit the description of Kristies dog.....The dog should understand the sit command so STRONGLY that it over rides the fear, aggression, or wanting to bail out. Sit should mean look at the owner or handler and try harder to figure out what is being ask of the dog. It should also mean that you are saying to the dog "I AM IN CHARGE and it didn't eat me or harm me, and I am a big girl and can take care of myself".

For me and the dogs I have trained that sit is so strongly ingrained that it quickly overrides all defense mechanisms to pressure. It gives a calm stable response to pressure. I was taught this through a process called a "fence drill". From all I can find out it is a drill that Rex Carr used but it seldom taught anymore.

Just my 2 cents


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree with zipmark. This is not a dominance-aggression issue. I believe aggession is initially rooted in fear, and that could be fear of the unknown. Defenese aggression? Fear aggession? I think maybe shutzund (sp?) trainers may make a finer disctintion. But, the bottom line is that for whatever reason, the dog feels threatened and responded with the tool box he had.

The long-term danger for the dog is that he will access aggression as his default response to all unknown, and therefore threatening, situations.

But, none of the above is Kristie's resonsibility. She is responsible for _training_ the dog. Training, and dealing with agression issues are two seperate issues. I believe Kristie would be perfectly justified in telling the owner she cannot continue with his training, because his aggression is inhibitiing his ability to learn, and Kristie's ability to train.

I think Kristie's 'kicking the door' example is important because it may show the dog is capable of learning how to respond more approprately. But, until the dog is shown behavioral alternatives to 'aggression', Kristie is putting herself at risk.

If you don't deal with the behavioral issue, it will still be there when the training is done.

My 2 cents.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

FetchExpress said:


> Food for thought.... so for those of us that train dogs who might fit the description of Kristies dog.....The dog should understand the sit command so STRONGLY that it over rides the fear, aggression, or wanting to bail out. Sit should mean look at the owner or handler and try harder to figure out what is being ask of the dog. It should also mean that you are saying to the dog "I AM IN CHARGE and it didn't eat me or harm me, and I am a big girl and can take care of myself".
> 
> For me and the dogs I have trained that sit is so strongly ingrained that it quickly overrides all defense mechanisms to pressure. It gives a calm stable response to pressure. I was taught this through a process called a "fence drill". From all I can find out it is a drill that Rex Carr used but it seldom taught anymore.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


May I quote Rex Carr: "Sit is the seat of control."


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2008)

zipmarc said:


> I didn't have time in the morning to address this incident - wanted to get my training done before the thermometer boiled over again. Well it's on boil, so I am back inside in the air conditioning.....
> 
> In this example that Kristie described, to me it's clear cut defense aggression from the dog, not dominance behavior. The dog lunged at the kennel gate because when Kristie kicked it, it probably made a noise, the dog perceived the kennel gate as a threat, his mode of response was to attack it.
> 
> ...


I think your assessment is 100% correct. My issue with the "submit" was that he was not listening to me as the was doing the behavior, even though I was right there at the gate. I was desensitizing him to the gate being kicked, for sure. At the same time, he was refusing my commands as he was being aggressive at the gate -- and that's where the "submit" came from. I have NO problem with ANY dog defending itself against a TRUE and legimate threat... Where they literally need to defend themselves... But in this case, he needs to shut up and listen. lol

anyway... My issue about people backing down and his needing to submit is when he is FREE and growling at people -- when there isn't a boundary between him and the person. 

For about 3-4 weeks when he was first training, I would put all the dogs back up and instruct anyone with us to stay back, etc. Because I just didn't know how he would react. Then we gradually eased him into more and more situations with more and more stimuli. Now he's on a tie-out near other dogs -- but always off to the side a ways, not close enough to make contact. No problem (never has been, but I just didn't want to do it right away). My friends and some clients have approached him, no problem. He's been very sweet to everyone.

I guess it wouldn't be as frustrating, and I'd have NO problem sending him home, if he wasn't so talented in the field... THAT is where my conflict is. He runs beautifully and is a joy to be around 99.99% of the time. If he was running like crap, giving me flack, putzing around it he field, being aggressive around the kennels... He'd be gone. But I'm very conflicted.

I have dealt with and trained/rehabbed aggressive dogs before. That's not the issue. The issue is that I've never force fetched one and the proxomity of hands, face, teeth is a little bit more than what I'd do with dogs that I'm just doing rehab/obedience/socialization with. As a rule, I will not keep or train aggressive dogs, but I do take the occasional problem dog in an attempt to rehab and train them. 99% of the time, it works out great as their issues were purely control and socialization. I've only had one or two that I assessed as "wiring" problems - and that's what I'm trying to determine here. Is it BAD WIRING or is it something that can be addressed in training? REGARDLESS, I would never trust him to never be aggressive. But can I get him through training? THAT is what I'm trying to figure out.

I'll report back tomorrow morning... Going to do one more hold session -- will try to video some of it for you...

-K


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> But, until the dog is shown behavioral alternatives to 'aggression', Kristie is putting herself at risk.
> 
> If you don't deal with the behavioral issue, it will still be there when the training is done.
> 
> My 2 cents.


Purely philosophical question from a rookie...

I've heard it said/seen it written (and have been converted to believing!) that ff is more than picking stuff up--it is teaching the dog to respond appropriately to pressure. Does the idea of pressure extend to pressure the dog feels when its space is intruded upon/it feels defensive? 

I think I know a few people who would say that this dog is BEGGING to be force fetched. Would they be right?


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2008)

Snicklefritz said:


> I agree with zipmark. This is not a dominance-aggression issue. I believe aggession is initially rooted in fear, and that could be fear of the unknown. Defenese aggression? Fear aggession? I think maybe shutzund (sp?) trainers may make a finer disctintion. But, the bottom line is that for whatever reason, the dog feels threatened and responded with the tool box he had.
> 
> The long-term danger for the dog is that he will access aggression as his default response to all unknown, and therefore threatening, situations.
> 
> ...


This is a good point... For me behavioral issues are HUGE part of my retriever training program. If dogs are soft, tough, unfocused, whatever... I work on things every day, throughout the day, both in and out of training to get a "balanced dog"... I don't want to train THROUGH this problem, I want to GET RID of it and get him to a good place. Will that happen? I don't know... Like I said in my other post, I'm trying to figure out if it's bad wiring or something that can be addressed and fixed (but never trusted, in my opinion) through training.

-K


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Kristie,

I'm sure you are capable of working through this problem with this dog. My question is what are the owners going to do when they encounter such a situation? Are they going to read it before it happens? This dog may have the talent but still be a time bomb. I had one like that and put her down at age three becuase I couldn't trust her. She was CH Gailforce Vidalia Sweet** CD CGC.

Tom


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2008)

luvalab said:


> Purely philosophical question from a rookie...
> 
> I've heard it said/seen it written (and have been converted to believing!) that ff is more than picking stuff up--it is teaching the dog to respond appropriately to pressure. Does the idea of pressure extend to pressure the dog feels when its space is intruded upon/it feels defensive?
> 
> I think I know a few people who would say that this dog is BEGGING to be force fetched. Would they be right?


Another good point. Yes, FF is WAY more than just picking up, holding and carrying. More importantly, it's where the dog learns how to respond and work through pressure WITH you. I say it's "where the puppy becomes a dog" and you usually see a whole new, more focused, more responsive, more mature dog come out the other side. That's one reason I get irked when people talk about not needing force fetch -- it's so much more than what they understand it to be...

I won't know the answer to how he perceives pressure until I start applying it... I think the ear pinch will be much more than any pressure he's felt to date -- it's much more personal, much more intrusive and much less pleasant... I'm not feeling very positive about it right now.

Someone made a good point that he's exhibited the behavior at 13 mos and it's only downhill from here. Normally nasty behavior in males, from my experience, comes out around 18-24 months -- so what will happen 3-4-5 months from now??

I can also try FF'ing with the collar. That may be another option as it's much less personal and gives my hand more freedom...

My prognosis, from overanalyzing him the last few days is that he WILL try something but I will fairly easily be able to back him down. I really, as corny as this sounds, feel a bond with him. Maybe it's that "one-person" chessie bond... It sounds so stupid, but I "feel" it just like there's a feeling I get when running every other dog I have -- they all feel different.

Anyway, I feel like I'm way overdoing this, but it's a super discussion that I've really enjoyed. It's nice to be on the receiving end of advice in something I'm not entirely schooled in. And sit and think about everyone's contributions. They are much appreciated.

-K


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2008)

twall said:


> Kristie,
> 
> I'm sure you are capable of working through this problem with this dog. My question is what are the owners going to do when they encounter such a situation? Are they going to read it before it happens? This dog may have the talent but still be a time bomb. I had one like that and put her down at age three becuase I couldn't trust her. She was CH Gailforce Vidalia Sweet** CD CGC.
> 
> Tom


Don't know -- I've discussed it with them and will have to continue to do so at length... I need to get more detailed information about the lunging behavior. He went home for a few days after he had only been here a month and did it while he was home...

Number one is that before he goes home again, they need to come out and work with him on obedience in stimulating situations -- forget the retriever training... 

I'm not sure how it will go... It would be such a shame for something bad to happen...

On another note... I've had a couple of aggressive rescue dogs here. One has been here for 18 mos now because I've kind of stolen here and done some retriever training with her. She was wild when she got her. Now she plays with everyone, no problem. She used to lunge at dogs through her crate and kennel. She was nasty. That behavior is gone now. And she plays with everyone... So possibly some of his issues may ease over time simply because of the nature of how he's REQUIRED to behave here. Again, if it's not a wiring problem.

-K

-K


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

luvalab said:


> .....I've heard it said/seen it written (and have been converted to believing!) that ff is more than picking stuff up--it is teaching the dog to respond appropriately to pressure. Does the idea of pressure extend to pressure the dog feels when its space is intruded upon/it feels defensive?.....


You've picked up a good point and this is an interesting question....The application of pressure when taken to the point of intruding on the dog's personal safety zone (and that zone is different for each dog) will tell you how much stuff is in that dog.

The dog's recovery rate when confronted with such duress is a significant measure of his trainability and his success in coping with other environmental threats.

A trainer must be able to read the dog precisely and promptly when meting out incremental levels of pressure. I don't believe most trainers do this - to discover the dog's limits. They stop somewhere along the line, I don't know just where.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kristie,

I have FF'd 3 Chessies for friends and 2 of my own. A good friends male fit your description to a "T". 

Great dog around people and kids but, didn't like the FF ear pinch. 
We built a table with cable about waist high. I had a local sewing shop make me some leg shackles from velcro with a quick snap link. I put an eye bolt to the table where his front legs stood. 

With this set up, he could not lunge. Before, ear pinch on the ground, he was like an alligator, twisting and twirling with the teeth out. 

Snap the collar on the cable above his head and leg shackles to the floor of the table. Legs shackles made it much easier to control him. It took away most of his ability to alligator on me. I think you could easily do this with an eye bolt on a wall and possibly and eye bolt on a sheet of plywood for him to stand on to keep it simple on the ground. 

I still have the shackles in my training box. He was a unique CBR with a good personality but, FF was a bugger and a little scary. I would gladly send you a picture or, just send them to you! Hope I never need them again! 

Good luck-----Paul


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Kristie Wilder said:


> ..... I'm trying to figure out if it's bad wiring or something that can be addressed and fixed (but never trusted, in my opinion) through training......-K


From the way the dog learns, I don't think he has bad wiring. He has a low threshhold, which can been improved.

There could be dietary mineral deficiencies that aggravate fear or defense aggression. Not all body systems are created equal, and some body systems may not assimilate the nutrients according to the textbooks. A competent holistic veterinarian could help here.

"Never" is a forbidden word in Rex Carr's lexicon - and I happen to agree! I've tamed feral cats which were "never to be trusted" (including one that bit and clawed me in the head).

I can see you do it, but I won't bait you to the challenge. The question is, as a pro, how are you going to allocate the extra time you will need to get it done right, and, after he leaves you, are the owners capable of maintaining him?

Rex Carr used to get some clients really upset because he spent a disproportionate amount of time solving some unsolvable problem in another client's dog. That's not good business sense. But as a dog trainer, he was a genius.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> I can see you do it, but I won't bait you to the challenge. The question is, as a pro, how are you going to allocate the extra time you will need to get it done right, and, after he leaves you, are the owners capable of maintaining him?
> 
> Rex Carr used to get some clients really upset because he spent a disproportionate amount of time solving some unsolvable problem in another client's dog. That's not good business sense. But as a dog trainer, he was a genius.


Since Cesar's been brought up in this thread...

One episode he was working with a groomer with some problem dogs and talking about how when he was starting out and working as a groomer, he'd sometimes only groom a couple dogs in a whole day because they were problems and it took so long. He said it was bad grooming for making money, but (approximate quote) "good grooming for making karma. So sometimes you groom for money, sometimes you groom for karma." 

I liked him all over again for that. So Kristie must be "training for karma."


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2008)

zipmarc said:


> From the way the dog learns, I don't think he has bad wiring. He has a low threshhold, which can been improved.
> 
> There could be dietary mineral deficiencies that aggravate fear or defense aggression. Not all body systems are created equal, and some body systems may not assimilate the nutrients according to the textbooks. A competent holistic veterinarian could help here.
> 
> ...


I only have 5-6 dogs in training now... Before Joie died, I was cutting back and I've just kept it that way, which has been nice. I have more than enough time to do what I need to do with him, so it shouldn't be a problem. 

I would "always" use "never" with an aggressive dog simply because I don't think it's fair to risk people, especially small children, based on ANYONE's training ability.

-K


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

"Today... He drops the bumper. I give him a good pop because we're well into the lesson -- NOT anything over the top, just a nice firm pop with a firm no (no yelling or anything) and the sucker GROWLS at me...
When he growled, I gave him a quick yank of the collar, told him quiet and sit. He continued, and I repeated a little more firmly and he stopped. I put the bumper in his mouth (trying to not be at all nervous, lol) and off we went, no problem."{Kristie}

I've FF my share of CBRs and Labs and have the scars to prove it(more of them from labs).
Kristie, IMHO you were being tested(it's what CBRs do) and you passed. I would forget about FF for at least a week or two. Reaffirm hold at remote sit, heeling by placing the bumper in his mouth without pressure. Showing the dog that having this in his mouth is a good idea. I think you will find that when you revisit the fetch aspect it will go fairly smooth. 
All the ropes and hitches will just make the dog more protective of himself and bring out more aggressive behavior. From your overall description of the dog it sounds like he wants to work for you and has some talent, don't throw him away. You won't "force" him but you can probably convince him that fetching on command is in his best interest. 
The hard part may be convincing the owner/client that it will take more time!
Tim


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## Poodlegirl (Dec 19, 2007)

I say - train Poodles. They might try to bite but you *KNOW* you can get away from them. Mulls taught you ;-) the Exorcist thing didn't she?

All I know is that I have seen what a Chessie can do to a handler when it's mad. And what I saw was not pretty for the handler. I think something like 150 stitches down the arm later plus quarantine for the dog there was a discussion with the owner about whether this was the right life for the dog.

The dog had been on the edge for a long time, and the trainer really believed - like you -- that the dog had talent. The dog loved its owner. But the situation just got worse and worse. In fact looking back one wonders if the dog didn't have a worsening brain tumor or something similar that impacted its perception of the world. However, it doesn't much matter after the fact.

Be careful -- I know how you love a challenge -- but really -- life is too short for ugly scars on your face as a result of dog bites. And you can always train a Poodle if you want a real challenge.

Claudia


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Personally, I think Kristie should keep the dog, permanantly! She is bonding with the dog, he is learning to trust her, she knows how to handle him, and she is responsible. It all adds up to the perfect fit for the chessie!


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I think your assessment is 100% correct. My issue with the "submit" was that he was not listening to me as the was doing the behavior, even though I was right there at the gate. I was desensitizing him to the gate being kicked, for sure.


Actually that episode was not desensitization, which involves exposing a dog to a stimulus but keeping it below threshold for a response. It sounds more like flooding, which sometimes works or appears to, but is usually recommended against.

I think emphasizing the "sit" command is probably a good idea. I recently had an experience with a Chesapeake somewhat like yours that illustrates the value, I think, of a familiar, well-practiced option. The first time this dog showed aggression was one morning when I found him lying in his run favoring one hind leg. From the way he was acting I was sure it was broken. He wouldn't let me close to him, snapping alarmingly. I had to get him to the vet. I ran a lead through the back of a dog crate, noosed his neck, and started to haul him into the crate. Once he recognized that he was being pulled toward a crate, he got up and willingly went in. Once inside, he appeared less stressed. 

At the vet there was some concern about treating him, but the crate appeared to be the key to getting him to relax enough for me to put a muzzle on him. It was a good thing that he had been thoroughly trained to be comfortable in a crate!

Oddly enough, the vet could find nothing wrong, and within a day he was using the leg normally. We have had a snapping episode or two in training since then, in connection with applying pressure (although he got through FF without an incident). The key with this dog is not to try to jump forward in training and rely on pressure to bridge the gap; everything must be done in baby steps, gradually increasing his acceptance of pressure.

Anyway it is possible that making "sit" a familiar and safe solution for your Peake will provide a means for him to recover his cool just as the crate did with the dog I have here.
Then you can move forward--"yes, I am going to use pressure on you; yes, you can trust me to keep it fair."

Amy Dahl


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2008)

afdahl said:


> Actually that episode was not desensitization, which involves exposing a dog to a stimulus but keeping it below threshold for a response. It sounds more like flooding, which sometimes works or appears to, but is usually recommended against.
> 
> I think emphasizing the "sit" command is probably a good idea. I recently had an experience with a Chesapeake somewhat like yours that illustrates the value, I think, of a familiar, well-practiced option. The first time this dog showed aggression was one morning when I found him lying in his run favoring one hind leg. From the way he was acting I was sure it was broken. He wouldn't let me close to him, snapping alarmingly. I had to get him to the vet. I ran a lead through the back of a dog crate, noosed his neck, and started to haul him into the crate. Once he recognized that he was being pulled toward a crate, he got up and willingly went in. Once inside, he appeared less stressed.
> 
> ...


Feigning a broken leg can be a dog's response to protect himself. I had one dog here who used to do it ALL the time in response to other dogs. She'd drop one back leg and hobble away from them if they tried to pay attention to her (eventually went away as she gained confidence). I've had 2-3 other dogs since. It's not common, but it is a tactic from way back. I'm trying to find a reference on the web, but not having any luck. It's in one of my behavior/training books somewhere...

I guess for me with flooding versus densitization, it depends on the dog. If the dog is obnoxious around the stimulus, then I flood. If they're nervous about it, I desensitize... I prefer to nip things in the bud rather than have a long drawn-out nagging process. And for me, flooding has worked well with that in the cases where I've used it. 

I'm actually heading out to do his lesson now... Wish me luck!!  Actually he's been great. I kicked the kennel today, no response. I was also petting him and pulling his ears, and patting him roughly on top of his head... No issues...

-K


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

If you or the owners decide to wash him out ,,,PLEASE contact me .


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2008)

so toay went well... I sat and played with his ears for bit and actually put my nail into one just to see how he would react -- I found myself doing it before I had a second to realize I didn't have him all strung up. I wasn't doing it to force him, just to see his reaction. He did like a gurgling growl/yelp thing, but it wasn't a growl, it was more of the "what's going on" thing. And he did not try a thing... So that was good... We'll see what tomorrow brings. We just brought everyone inside and battened down the hatches for some bad weather moving in...

-K


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Kristie: there is a somewhat famous story known by Chessie owners concerning Rex Carr and the top AA point CBR ever. Rex was dooing some of his pioneering work with the e collar and strapped one on ole Tiger. When he hit the button Tiger treed Rex and his owner on top of the dog truck. Mind you the dog came thru a metal garbage can lid Rex carried for protection and a dog whip. They stayed treed for a few hours until the kennel boy came around looking for the dogs at feeding time.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Kristie: there is a somewhat famous story known by Chessie owners concerning Rex Carr and the top AA point CBR ever. Rex was dooing some of his pioneering work with the e collar and strapped one on ole Tiger. When he hit the button Tiger treed Rex and his owner on top of the dog truck. Mind you the dog came thru a metal garbage can lid Rex carried for protection and a dog whip. They stayed treed for a few hours until the kennel boy came around looking for the dogs at feeding time.


I never heard that one before. The Chessie story I heard was Eloise Heller smacking Rex. Some would say that she punched him. I liked Eloise. She had an Airstream parked on the hill at CL2 and she used to let me stay there when she wasn't there, so I could shower and stuff (I was tent camping).

P.S. There were and there are no trees at CL2, just one willow tree, we didn't train under it, we ate lunch there.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Treed meaning that they were on top of the dog truck not literally up a tree. Eloise tells the story in her last book"The Complete Chesapeake Bay Retriever. I have also heard from some of Rex other students that Eloise and Helen Fleischmann got in a real pier 6 brawl one day and that Rex had to break it up.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

My friend had one that was a real butthole until he got hit by a car. That cooled his demeanor a lot and his head looked lumpy, after the healing. The disturbing thing was how he liked humping geese. He died from twist last year.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

KJ is this the dog in question?
View attachment 1430


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Treed meaning that they were on top of the dog truck not literally up a tree. Eloise tells the story in her last book"The Complete Chesapeake Bay Retriever. I have also heard from some of Rex other students that Eloise and Helen Fleischmann got in a real pier 6 brawl one day and that Rex had to break it up.


 
Obviously hadn't invented lime jello back then.

Ain't civilization grand regards

Bubba


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> .....I have also heard from some of Rex other students that Eloise and Helen Fleischmann got in a real pier 6 brawl one day and that Rex had to break it up.


YES!! Rex couldn't break it up. Those were colorful days! Life is a lot tamer these days! People would be suing each other filing restraining orders right and left.....


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## greg ye (Nov 28, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> so toay went well... I sat and played with his ears for bit and actually put my nail into one just to see how he would react
> -K


Think you have your answer. Put "teach" into the front end of FF. If he freaks, stop what your doing and back away but reinforce "sit." Free-handing this dog is a bad idea even though "sit" means "sit." I really like the toe-hitch; if done right, there's lots of control and the pain is way better than an ear pinch; when you do the ear thing after toe, it's like a non-event.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2008)

*Thanks everyone and thank you for all the great pm's...* I haven't had time to respond to them all, but have read every single one and am saving them.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Kristie,

You should be commended for your professionalism in taking on a challenge and not ditching a dog at the first sign of problem. You are a credit to your profession. Before you know it you'll only want to take in Bay Dogs

For those that said "Send it home and move on to the next robot" well.....


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

CBR KAIE said:


> KJ is this the dog in question?
> View attachment 1430


No but close.


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## LABRADORS UNLIMITED (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Kristie,

Sorry I won't see you at the MASTER NATIONALS.I have six dogs going this year and I'm looking forward to it.
I trained a few of those CHES. and labs. with that temp.Please give me a call and I will give the details on getting it done safely.219-508-4445.Hope I can help.
Bill Cox


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Kristie;

One of 3 things is happening here:

1) The dog is going through his allhose phase. All male Chessies go through this (and some of the bitches). He will need some firm structure, but will outgrow it.

2) He is "trying it on" and one swift no-nonsense correction will garner his respect. No further manifestations.

3) His temperament is going downhill, and he will gradually become less and less tolerant of other dogs, discipline in general, people in "his" space, etc. consider it the allhose phase writ large. They don't get over this, it's a dominance thing, and some become dangerous.

At this point, impossible to tell which you are dealing with. Take it slow, don't be afraid to correct, and don't let HIM see you are nervous. If he gets worse, move him along. It's not your problem.

Lisa


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Kristie
A good way to introduce force to dogs that don't tolerate ear pinch is to back tie with a choker and you hold a 6 foot with a prong.
Stretch him out instead of pinching. Dogs toerate this really well.
Your hands are not on or near the dog so they dont associate the hand with the ouchy,,, and dogs figure out how to shut off discomfort without manifesting any of that nervy stuff.
Feel your way through it. You might even eventually replace the ear pinch with it
Pete


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

Kristie: 
I have never posted a negative comment on this site, but feel you're a babe in the woods on this issue and you're going to get hurt. This dog is at full strength and if he decieds to take you (and he will) you're not strong enough to stop him. Please, send the dog home.
GG


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## Jeff (Jan 8, 2003)

Kristie, I know this, in one way or another, has already been mentioned; but, this is a behavioral issue - NOT a training issue. I don't believe progressive training can be achieved until the psychological aspect of this matter is under control. I believe, for the most part, that you can train any dog if you can balance the mind. Good luck, Jeff


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I took some time to read more of the postings and I can understand the concerns of others,,,,but As with anything in life
It depends
If your only intent is to crank out gun dogs or trial dogs then it wouldn't make any buisiness sense to mess with the dog.

But if your intent as a pro dog trainer is to train and tame whatever comes in to the kennel,,,teach owners what they need to know and get all you can out of the dog and also get good at dog behavior issues,,,then this is a good oppertunity to learn something about this type of problem and how to counter it. And also how to teach the owners of the dog how this dog needs to be handled.


Because you have worked with alot of dogs and have great desire and understanding you will probably figure it out pretty quick.

This type of situation can be done safely,,,

The only way to learn is to roll up your sleeves
OH and get a pair of welders gloves
There is also a progression in what you do first.
Before FF I do F here and F down . The forced down will probably meet the same opposition as the FF. Since he is gun dog you will have to seperate the F down from sit or he will start laying down on the whistle if your not careful.

Anyway there is a bunch of feeling your way through each dog and you already can do that.

So basically weather you should do it or not depends on what your goals in life are.
The back tie I told you about a couple of posts ago doesn't threaten the dog hardly compared to an ear pinch. So if you decide to try it that way,,,,just go slow and be non threatening in you movements and behavior

good luck to you either way
Pete


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

I really don't think that this is a training issue or a behavior issue. This is a chessie issue. I've got two black labs and two chessies. They are like night and day. It would take a book to explain the differences. Chessies will test you. Kristie is a new person to this dog. I wouldn't throw him under the bus for growling one time. 
The one thing that concerns me is his socialization. That is so important with any dog, especially with a chessie. I've never had or been around one that was not well socialized. I don't know if 13 months is too old.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

For what it's worth, I really don't think this is a 'chessie' issue. Kristie incidated there had been an issue ..' a big issue' before he arrived, and he is now growling at her. What's so uniquely 'chessie' about that? I see that all the time in lots of breeds. What it indicates to me is an underlying problem that needs to be addressed - regardless of breed.

'Chessies' are certainly different than Labs and Goldens. And, I agree with the common notion that socialization and OB are very important for 'Chessies'. But, biting and growling are not 'chessie' specific. 

But, even if it is a 'chessie' issue, how does that change the way we respond? 'Chessies' are still dogs, and as long as we take them very seriously, we still proceed with behavior modification, or training, or socialization in the most appropriate way for the individual dog, not the breed.

There are times when knowledge about the differences in breeds can be very helpful. But, there are other times it can distract us from the real issue that needs to be addressed.

I believe Kristie is taking this dog seriously, and that's good. I also think her experience with lots of dogs will enable her to determine how to proceed with this dog, at this time in his training.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Greg 
I think Its both a behavioral issue /genetic issue and a training issue. Its not only a chessie thing although you will see it in chessies more than the other retriever breeds. Your gaurding breeds such as the chessie,,,,,,  everyone says they used to gaurd the duck boat so that puts them in a catagory in which fearful responses were a plus.,,,,,, Along with their dominant nature actually makes them the perfect candidate for the job. more than others because in order to be a natural gaurding dog you need the element of fear. (defense) Although many chessies have the perfect blend of fear and dominance to do other type of work ,,, in the hunting /field trial arena its not classy response. That makes them a multi purpose /versitile breed 

As for a dog getting aggressive in their kennel,,, well who doesn't,,, with most of them as soon as you open the door they quit so there is more to that one that meets the eye.



Defensive dogs are forced all the time. The trick is getting the reliability of commands down so you can move on. Force is an operant training method. If done correctly It makes a better more stable animal. Weather the dog is a sweet little marshmellow or a nasty creature it makes no difference. Force when done properly is your most efficient,,long lasting operant method which requires less maintence



The mouth is not a good place to start force on an aggressive dog because thats the first tool a dog chooses to use as defense. If you condition forced resposes in other areas first then they go through the FF much smoother.



At 13 months the job will be easier than at 2 or 3. Young dogs lack confidence to bite properly and will most likely use their canines sparingly which is baby stuff compared to their carnasals. Confident dogs bite deep in the back of the mouth



If done correctly also,,,,you wont kick them into defensive drive,,,,so FF should go the same as a dog without aggression issues.
You just have to be accutely aware of their state of mind and feel your way through each dog and respond accordingly.


He actually doesn't sound that bad to me but one has to see the dog first to know for sure.
Chessies can be fierce fighters thats for sure but its imparitive not to throw them in defense and that takes reading a dog well .




Everyone has to start somewhere if they are going to learn. If their desire takes them to making this decision and they have the, disipline and dedication it takes to understand 
this stuff they will be successful. 
I percieve Kristie is pretty savy and has the ability to think things through methodically and presisely and would cover all her bases if she decides to break the monotany of FFing your average dog.

Anyway I'm ramblin I think I need to get a job
Pete


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

I just re read the post. Had forgotten about the dogs aggression at the house. Maybe the dogs got a wire loose. Or maybe he just hasn't been out of the house much. Kristie did say that the dog has only growled once and has never snapped at her. 
Chessies naturally mature slower than labs.They are also very cautious. Hopefully once he gets used to his new environment and learns to trust other people thing will turn around.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Schnick makes a good point
You will find aggressive dogs in every breed ,,,,but at the same time Greg is also correct.
Breeds fall into general catagories. This gives us the oppertunities to choose what we like in a dog.
Labs are generally this way,,,,,,,goldens are generally this way,,,,rotties,sheppards,,cane corso,s are generally a certain way.. so on and so forth.

However their are many representitives in everybreed that don't conform to the average type.

Some labs train up like some chessies some chessies train up like some labs,,,some rotties train up like labs and you can cris cross that with any breed. Because a dog is a dog is a dog.



But generally speaking you will find this breed is this way and that breed is that way.
What causes breeds to be different from each other is the different level of drives and their sensetivities to their environment.

Some were bred to be guarding ,,some guarding/ retrieving some herding some protection so on and so forth.

Almost all dogs possess some defensive drives,,,,some more than others.
Most have prey drive,,,some more than others,,,,pack drive,food drive,,, the same thing,,,, and the level of these drives help shape temperament.

Labs generally do not make guard dogs because the defense is low but its still there it just takes more threat to manifest

Some dogs flip out if a leave blows across the yard and can turn dangerous ,,,,real bad dangerous..
So the element of to much fear in a dogs temerament is not good.
But most have a certain level, same as pack,food ,sex,and prey
Anyway

Just an after thought.:razz:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Kristie, how is this going?

/Paul


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

what a very interesting read this is, great thread. To add to this speculation, I have a nine year old one inch scar on my left fore arm from a true bite during force fetch. And the Chesapeake in question never made a sound before the bite, during the bite, or immediately after the bite as I encouraged her to release my arm. Sometimes stuff happens working with dogs. Many peaks will test the water of the spot in the pack they hold. Sometimes it is during FF.
Ken Bora


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken, 

How did that water entry work out once you got your arm back? Paul


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2008)

Starting this week... Did a few more uneventful hold lessons. Spent the week between hold and now FF working on all young dogs getting up and out of the water and back in, so I didn't want to have too much going on at once... Also, just some general procrastinating of force fetching six dogs at once. LOL

Will keep you posted. I've also just been more closely watching him and evaluating what I'm getting into. Will start with hooking him up to a deck post right near where he's used to working on hold...

I want to thank everyone again for all the pm's -- I have so many and have not taken the time to respond to them all yet. But want to say thanks and that I have read every one of them... more than I've ever gotten for anything else (besides Joie!!).

-K


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

Hi Kristie and Every one else. I will give you a little introduction: I ff my first dog at 18 I am 55. Yes I am a pro from 1972. I make my living ff I have done every sporting breed you can think of. My methods have been tested and proven on hundreds of dogs. Kristie You know Bob Allen from Ga, he has watched me ff, call him and ask about me.I now figured out even a better system from when he was here . I have worked lots and lots of Chessies. 5 years ago a man brought me a CB dog. While on the leash the dog attacked me. Well do you want to work her? I said yep he put her in the kennel and with her I figured out the mystery to over come her aggression. I ff her with no problem. The method was tested on 2 more CB dogs. Trust me I can master that dog you are working with, but here is the problem tic tic tic tic tic tic tic The first- time bomb- went off 6 months after I ff her. I sit here writing this crying -I mean it with all my hart. I was there watching the owner working the dog. The dog dropped the bumper and he said fetch. The dog attacked him for the first time ever. I pried the dog loose and took him to the hospital. Second dog- Bing Go -yes I mastered it I now know the secret. People stop kicking fences stop hanging dogs from trees stop drowning them stop shocking them. Tic Tic Tic Tic . All bad stuff all wrong. Kristie growling is ok really it is ok. It is when the dog crosses the line of no return, They bite you. NO I DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS TO DOG TRAINING. Fear bitiing is ok, dog fights and you get in the middle and get bit and thats ok ear pinch and caught the dog by supprise and you get nipped I say ok.Now the second dog tic tic tic a year later a buddy reaches for a rare duck he shot and the time bomb go's off. His buddy is bit bad. 3rd dog is still ticking while we talk. I have a new RULE I WILL NOT TELL ANY ONE THE SECRET I found AND MY ADVICE IS PROCEED WITH CAUTION. MY REAL ADVICE IS DONT MAKE ME CRY> SEND IT HOME< I WILL NO LONGER WORK ANY DOG THAT SHOWS THAT HATE. I can master them have for many years I have sent a few home because I could not and they were different breeds also. TIC TIC TIC TIC TIC REGARDS JIM


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

Jim, Interesting. I've commented on this, but just want to add something. Alot of you guys and gals have probably not been around too many chessies. Biting people is not the norm. You can beat a lab down(I never would) not socialize it, abuse it, and it may or may not turn on you. Results may be different with a chessie. If you raise your chessie pup the right way (a different thread) you will have the most loyal, loving dog that you could possibly imagine. A dog that can and will learn how to deal with the pressures of training. A dog that the neighbors kids can play with and the hardest worker in a duck camp. I just don't want people to think that chessies are aggressive. If someone has one that is they probably made him that way.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Reading some of these replies is like stepping back a couple or three decades - and even then I would have thought the great majority of such problem Chessies man made.


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

Kristie: Just one more little post, In 1972 I went to work for Richard S Johns who was put in GSP Hall of Fame No average trainer. He saw what I could do in Force Fetch and turned every dog over to me and that part of business. His One RULE if you run into a nasty dog stop. I did and it was sent home right away. By 1983 I went in business for my self. Around 1985 I got a nasty lab growling , how about bearing teeth also, and so I am going to prove how good I am. Plus you read all that junk about the mental benefits for a dog when you force break them. Ok I did it and all fingers made it. I was into hand signal with the dog then to baseball even and one day it dropped the bumper. I said fetch and he looked at me and as the seconds rolled it got worse. I had no were to run and no close truck to jump up on. He was looking at my face the fire was coming out his nose and the white teeth snapping. He is getting closer for the kill and I threw the bumpers that were in my hand at him. It was all over, he snapped out of it. Weeks later doing water casting he would not pick up a bumper I shouted fetch , He came for me I jumped in the pond and it defused it self. Later I was ready for him and said back on a blind and he went for me. I thought I will hold his head under water. Well I came close to drowning but it all worked out for me. The owner sent him to the vet.I blamed my self for the whole thing.Call it what you want I call it nuts. I went back to Richards Rule. I sent a Golden home that bore its teeth at me at start of ff. The Irish Setter she lived in the house with me she was my buddy and when she bore her teeth I stopped and the owner understood, she never bit any one and never retrieved any birds but she was a great dog for them in the field. Then I got that CBD in and broke the RULES. Boy I thought I was good. By the way dog No# 2 I told you about in my first post got to blinds was all though the force stuff, force to pile ect. and she lived in the house with me @ times. She bit some one I hired to do work in the house. She ran out the door and turned around and jumped up and got him. Tic Tic Tic. I tell you this to WARN ALL OF YOU FOLKS best thing to do with nasty dogs is send them home Kristie. Regards JIM


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## Grant Wilson (Feb 27, 2008)

Kristie,
Just wanted to give you a few thoughts. I started force fetching bird dogs first when i was very young. I broke hundreds of dogs before i ever touched a lab. So naturally I do the labs like we used to do the pointers. Several things come to mind. We used a table so we didn't break our backs. Take the dog off the ground and get him off his turf. You can always put him back down. On my table I have an "I" bolt on one post so I can snap his collar to the post AKA NOT GET BIT. I also use the toe pinch with a piece of thin rope so no matter how pissed he gets he can't reach me. With a dog like that i would start slow on fetch and help him get the idea of "bumper in mouth means pressure stops". When you are sure he's got it, it's time for him to man up. Him biting you is not a dominance issue it's an avoidance issue. Don't let off the string till it's in his mouth period. If you stop he'll bite again. Most of the dogs that have tried to bite me aren't big dominant dogs, they're the confused dogs. Don't let him intimidate you because of his size. He's still smaller and dumber! People don't bring you the easy ones. Good Luck!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

James Seibel said:


> Kristie: Just one more little post, In 1972 I went to work for Richard S Johns who was put in GSP Hall of Fame No average trainer. He saw what I could do in Force Fetch and turned every dog over to me and that part of business. His One RULE if you run into a nasty dog stop. I did and it was sent home right away. By 1983 I went in business for my self. Around 1985 I got a nasty lab growling , how about bearing teeth also, and so I am going to prove how good I am. Plus you read all that junk about the mental benefits for a dog when you force break them. Ok I did it and all fingers made it. I was into hand signal with the dog then to baseball even and one day it dropped the bumper. I said fetch and he looked at me and as the seconds rolled it got worse. I had no were to run and no close truck to jump up on. He was looking at my face the fire was coming out his nose and the white teeth snapping. He is getting closer for the kill and I threw the bumpers that were in my hand at him. It was all over, he snapped out of it. Weeks later doing water casting he would not pick up a bumper I shouted fetch , He came for me I jumped in the pond and it defused it self. Later I was ready for him and said back on a blind and he went for me. I thought I will hold his head under water. Well I came close to drowning but it all worked out for me. The owner sent him to the vet.I blamed my self for the whole thing.Call it what you want I call it nuts. I went back to Richards Rule. I sent a Golden home that bore its teeth at me at start of ff. The Irish Setter she lived in the house with me she was my buddy and when she bore her teeth I stopped and the owner understood, she never bit any one and never retrieved any birds but she was a great dog for them in the field. Then I got that CBD in and broke the RULES. Boy I thought I was good. By the way dog No# 2 I told you about in my first post got to blinds was all though the force stuff, force to pile ect. and she lived in the house with me @ times. She bit some one I hired to do work in the house. She ran out the door and turned around and jumped up and got him. Tic Tic Tic. I tell you this to WARN ALL OF YOU FOLKS best thing to do with nasty dogs is send them home Kristie. Regards JIM



James, 

No disprespect intended but, you have stated you have a lot of experience with dogs who are time bombs ticking waiting to go off. Do you ever feel that your own method of FF and training in the field may have contributed to setting off a few of these dogs? Possibly you worked better with one particular type of dog but, you were not as gifted reading other types and your methods didn't work for them which made them TIC, TIC, TIC? 

Just my first thought after reading your posts. Paul G.


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

CBR KAIE said:


> James,
> 
> No disprespect intended but, you have stated you have a lot of experience with dogs who are time bombs ticking waiting to go off. Do you ever feel that your own method of FF and training in the field may have contributed to setting off a few of these dogs? Possibly you worked better with one particular type of dog but, you were not as gifted reading other types and your methods didn't work for them which made them TIC, TIC, TIC?
> 
> Just my first thought after reading your posts. Paul G.


Paul, I must admit the same thought came to mind. As a Chessie owner and fan, I can understand that sometimes they bring special issues to the table. But Setters? Goldens? To the point they'd want to kill someone? Sometimes the madness _is_ in the method.

I hope that Kristie will take all the advice she's gotten here and winnow out what is the most useful for her situation. It was pretty clear from her original post that she didn't want to just give up and send the dog home. Perhaps when she has time she can give us an update on how its going.


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

The CBR's came here angry. My methods are very soft ask BOB ALLEN. YOU are welcome to come here. You want ref. I will give them to you. The other two dogs I stopped as soon as they showed their teeth and I called owner. I did nothing to them. They warned me from the start. Dont question my methods, I have seen others that make me sick. I am done with this post thank you.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

James Seibel said:


> The CBR's came here angry. My methods are very soft ask BOB ALLEN. YOU are welcome to come here. You want ref. I will give them to you. The other two dogs I stopped as soon as they showed their teeth and I called owner. I did nothing to them. They warned me from the start. Dont question my methods, I have seen others that make me sick. I am done with this post thank you.


James,
As I mentioned, I did not want to insult your methods or reasoning. I was just curious. As we all know, without seeing someones' dog or situation, we cannot really make valid assessments of the situation by reading what someone had written. Kristie has an amazing talent of describing technique/methodology and situations in written word which is easily understood by most all of us.(probably an understatement) Obviously, you and I lack that ability. 

If, we did not question comments this would not be a forum. It would be awfully boring and less educational if, I posted a comment and just expected everyone to agree and take my advice. (not that I have posted any good advice) 

Definition: a public facility to meet for open discussion 

I apologize if, my questioning insulted you in any way---Paul


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

Likewise, no insult was intended. It's unfortunate that the CBRs came there "angry dogs," as they don't emerge from their mothers that way. Sometimes the wrong people want a naturally protective dog for the wrong reasons, and then of course, it's the dog that suffers.


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

You are correct about my writing skills, very poor. I am amazed with Kristie and her writing and how she ex planes things. Very helpful for me also.I worry very very much she will get hurt by this dog she is working. I had a Lab sent here it hated kids. The man paid me for 5 years to just work him and give him a good life. I did my best and never the less he still hated kids. Even with all the training. I do not understand the burnt wire a dog may get. The dog loved every one that came here. Except kids and that is why Mike paid me to protect the dog and kids. But please come here if you are able I will show you nice country and you can train on my new tech. pond. Regards to all. JIM


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

James Seibel said:


> You are correct about my writing skills, very poor. I am amazed with Kristie and her writing and how she ex planes things. Very helpful for me also.I worry very very much she will get hurt by this dog she is working. I had a Lab sent here it hated kids. The man paid me for 5 years to just work him and give him a good life. I did my best and never the less he still hated kids. Even with all the training. I do not understand the burnt wire a dog may get. The dog loved every one that came here. Except kids and that is why Mike paid me to protect the dog and kids. But please come here if you are able I will show you nice country and you can train on my new tech. pond. Regards to all. JIM


James, If, I ever make it out that way, I would love to train with ya! Have a great weekend----Paul


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Canine Rage Syndrome: This condition is characterized by sudden episodes of aggression, often directed at the dog’s owner (or other people most often around the dog). Many owners report that the episodes are completely unpredictable. Others report that the episodes are triggered by specific stimulus that varies depending on the dog. The episodes are characterized by extreme aggressiveness, often including multiple bites or bite attempts, and the episodes stop as suddenly as the begin. Dilation of the dog’s eyes are often reported prior to the attack. And the dog is often said to seem confused or “remorseful” about what he has done following the attack. There is a lot of speculation about the cause of this syndrome. The two most common theories is that it is either a form of seizure, or that these dogs have an underlying chemical imbalance (such as reduced serotonin levels) that are associated with similar violent outbursts in people. Many people prefer to refer to canine rage syndrome as idiopathic aggression because the condition is not really related to human emotions such as “rage” or “anger.” However, the term idiopathic aggression more properly refers to sudden unpredictable outbursts in which no underlying neurological or other medical condition is present. Canine Rage Syndrome is sometimes also referred to as Behavioral Seizure disorder

Here is another link to the disorder:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/ragesyndromeinfo/whatisrage.htm

There are apparently several breeds in which this is more common and one is the Chessie...


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## Legacy 6 (Jul 2, 2008)

Just a question... I know next to nothing about the Chessies and, well, know a few buddies who have Goldens...

But it seems to me that on the scale of Agressive to Passive, Chessies are on the far side toward aggressive, and Goldens are more passive (dumb happy). I'm not trying to be insulting, these are just my observations... And Labs are somewhere in the middle.

Any truth to this? I've never had a Lab that growled at ANY point during FF... I'm not sure if my best friend ever did FF with his Goldens... but I just can't imagine them growling at ANYTHING!!!

I hate asking questions on other people's post, especially if it somehow detracts from the original discussion/question... but I thought maybe this would add to the discussion???

I'm particularily curious about KW's experiences. I really respect your opinion!!


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Richard,
I can't speak to Goldens but for others: I've been bit by Labs and have had CBRs to soft to force. I cann't support a general statement.

Tim


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

I've never had a Chessie growl at me during FF, or collar conditioning or that I recall in field training. I have had an occasional growl from a young male when there was a bitch in season here or over a bone, that type of thing.

I do have one oldtimer, Flier, who is approaching 14, who sounds like she is growling when you scratch her ears or show her affection. It took me a while to figure that the noise she is making is like a cat purring from pleasure


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

> There are apparently several breeds in which this is more common and one is the Chessie...


_Really?_ That's very interesting. I've only been in CBRs about 12 years, but I know lots of people who have been involved with the breed for 20 years plus, and although I am quite familiar with Canine Rage Syndrome, I've never even heard of anyone who has had the misfortune of dealing with a CBR like this let alone it being _common_ in the breed. 

I have heard of it being quite common with spaniels, particularly Cockers and English Springer Spaniels and in fact I know two people who had to put down Springers that developed this. 

The poor Chessie gets a bad rap, often undeserved. I'd like to hear how Kristie is getting along with this dog.


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

Legacy, I wouldn't even answer this if it wasn't you asking. Most of the people that have replied to Kristie's question have never been around these dogs. NO they do not lean toward the aggressive side. No they don't have some "poodle type rage" 

I don't know where these people are getting this [email protected]#p. Probably from books written about 50 years ago. Greg Elrod


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

Greg,
I did an internet search on "Canine Rage Syndrome" and "Chesapeake Bay Retriever." There was a link to a board (in England!) where someone posted that they'd _heard_ these dogs were prone to it.  I could not find a _single_ Veterinary paper that implicated CBRs as being afflicted by this. They are a great breed-- not for everyone, sure-- but I hate seeing them maligned like that.


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

Larkin, like wise. I would hate to see anyone thinking about a chessie read this thread. They would be reluctant at the least. Not fair for them or the breed


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

The problem with the internet is everybodies an expert. I beleive about 1% of the stuff that comes off the computer

Its a wonderful place for rumors and back biting to. 

I have never heard of a chessie with "rage" and I was in the agression buisiness. It certainly doesn't mean it can't happen,,,,,,,but you might be able find it in any breed.

I only saw one dog and it was a springer that was classified by a vet and behaviorist with rage.

The onset of it was when the dog started digging a hole,,, its eyes would start to dialate and then he was out of it.

What we did was collar condition him ,,,,and when the owners would see the onset of digging they would correct him. The thought would stop and so would the agression. They were able to completely anialate this problem and have a happy loving pet.

So just because a vet who is a doctor says something about behaviorial issues,,,it doesn't make it so. SO the same for the behaviorist.

So was that really rage? I don't know and it doesn't matter.

Labels mean nothing. When someone diagnoses some thing that they don't understand they usually tell you something ,,,so as not to look stupid.
They best thing to say is I DONT KNOW ...but lets try somethings and figure it out.

There certainly are phyisical reasons for some of these behaviors,,,,weather its not enough ceretonin or to much tetosterone or whatever,,,
The moral of the story is dont believe everything you read
especially from me

Pete


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I think a lot of people are confusing aggression with protective nature. I have dealt with some bad chessies. None of them were aggressive. They were more than willing to go there if you wanted to though.

The protective nature is part the Chesapeake breed, part of what makes it a chessie. Too many people today don't understand canine behavior, can't read their own dogs and excuse and overlook the signs of an impending problem. It is very rare for bad behvior to erupt without warning signs. This is why my original recommendation to Kristie was to send the dog home. Not because she wasn't capable of training the dog. But, who will have this dog in the future?

Tom

PS. I just remmebered this. We had a bitch that someone was thinking about getting a puppy from us. He came up to watch her work in training one day. Briar loved to work. Sometimes she would get impatient with me and would nip at my hand before I would send her for a mark or blind. This guy later told someone else that she was vicious and was biting me during training.


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## Susie Royer (Feb 4, 2005)

twall said:


> I think a lot of people are confusing aggression with protective nature. I have dealt with some bad chessies. None of them were aggressive.


I agree...CBRs are often misunderstood. It would be interesting to learn more about this dogs past history though. How did his owners socialize him or did they? Did they take him to any puppy or obedience classes? Was he kenneled all the time or allowed to run and rule the roost? Did he have a bad experience (CBRs never forget) that caused this behavior? How or did they try to correct this behavior when it started? 



twall said:


> This is why my original recommendation to Kristie was to send the dog home. Not because she wasn't capable of training the dog. But, who will have this dog in the future?


I totally disagree. We are not talking about a mature CBR male but a *13 month old pup *who most likely can be salvaged. Kristie seems to have a lot of faith in this dog and the best thing these owners did was take him to Kristie's boot camp!


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Susie Royer said:


> We are not talking about a mature CBR male but a *13 month old pup *who most likely can be salvaged. Kristie seems to have a lot of faith in this dog and the best thing these owners did was take him to Kristie's boot camp!


First off a dog over one year of age is no longer a pup! 

Secondly, my concern is not with Kristies ability but what becomes of the dog in the future. Is this dog staying with Krisitie for the rest of its life? Will the people this dog will reside with in the future understand and be able to read this dog? The fact that we are talking about "salvaging" a dog raises flags in my mind. The biggest cause, in my opinion, for chessie human attacks is the complete lack of understanding on the humans part of what is about to happen. It is rare for these bahaviors to come out of the blue. You may not recognize the signs the first time but, it is rare for there not to be any signs. Way too much inappropriate behavior is excused by ignorant owners who place benign motives on dogs they do not have.

It may be the best thing these owners did was to take this dog to Kristie. Is it good to train a dog for someone that they may/will not be able to handle when the dog has the potential to be dangerous? Will the owner understand the triggers and appropriate corrections when they did not train the dog? If the owner can handle the dog are they willing to make sure the dog is never allowed to get into dangerous/inappropriate situations with unsuspecting people?

My feeling is that there are plenty of good dogs out there. Why put up with a bad/dangerous dog?

Tom


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

twall said:


> First off a dog over one year of age is no longer a pup!


OMG, are you effing kidding me??? Can't imagine that a Lab has reached full maturity on the first anniversary of his birth, for sure NO CBR HAS. This is like saying a 14 year old human is an adult. Their growth plates aren't even closed. That is the most amazing statement I've seen here yet. 

Susie is absolutely right on both counts.


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

Just for the record, my advice, my opinion, (which, like all, was asked for), had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the fact that this dog is a Chessie. In my mind, it has to do with being able to sleep at nite when I send him home, "trained". By the way, I've been put into the hospital after getting in between two client dogs that were trying to kill one another..... both labs. Call me a robot trainer......fine. Call me a quitter.....fine. But remember, it's not JUST about Kristie and whether or not she can get this dog through the yard. I don't know her but I've read enough of her posts in the past, to know she CAN get this dog handling.That's just not my point............ "He had a habit of barking, snarling, and charging at visitors to his house and I believe on 2-3 or three occasions trying to bite and/or making contact with them."......"Put him in a kennel run and have a stranger go by and he's nasty"....."and the sucker GROWLS at me..."......"I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in getting bitten. I feel that the chances are good"......."When I did that just now, he growled and lunged at the kennel gate."........"My prognosis is, yes, this behavior is AWFUL AND dangerous. ANYONE -- which is MOST people -- who will back down is going to exacerbate the behavior."........."I would never ever ever trust a formerly aggressive dog around small children or really most people. It's not fair to the human beings..."........." I'm trying to figure out if it's bad wiring or something that can be addressed and fixed (but never trusted, in my opinion) through training."...... Kristie, I've never laid eyes on this dog but he's not THAT talented, IN MY OPINION. I would feel the same if he were a 3 year old BLM with a win 1 point away from an FC. If you're determined to "figure him out", and I sure wouldn't be mad at ya for that... , you need to buy him, and help this family find a dog that YOU BOTH can trust. From reading your posts, I feel like you already know this in your heart. But hey, what do I know I'm just a dog trainer, and I've sure been wrong before, but I'm gonna have to stick with my opinion for now. I really do feel bad for you. It's kinda tough when you give a damn about these tail waggin hoodlums isn't it? Again, good Luck!


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## Legacy 6 (Jul 2, 2008)

Greg E said:


> Legacy, I wouldn't even answer this *if it wasn't you asking*. Most of the people that have replied to Kristie's question have never been around these dogs. NO they do not lean toward the aggressive side. No they don't have some "poodle type rage"
> 
> I don't know where these people are getting this [email protected]#p. Probably from books written about 50 years ago. Greg Elrod


Greg,

I'm curious, are you answering my questions because you respect me so much, or you just feel so sorry for my stupid a$$??

Yeah, I thought it was the latter as well...


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

L. I thought it was a good question. I hope I gave you a good answer. And no, I don't think your a dumba$$. I do think that we are all a little crazy. lol


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2008)

The update to the story is that I have three bitches that went into heat as I wanted to start force fetch with him. And he's been a little wound up about them. Plus I do force fetch near the house and that's where they stay... I just don't want to take a chance with him possibly wound up. And then I'm still mulling over everything brought up in this thread...

-K


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## Grant Wilson (Feb 27, 2008)

I would like to post just a thought or two. Do you remember what FF was called a long time ago? Force BREAKING!!! Maybe it's time for a little submission. We used to take aggressive pointers and swing them around by their hind legs like you would swing a small child by their arms. Sounds crazy but sure takes the fight out of em'. Kristie I hope everything works out great. I think you set a record on replies! ha ha


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2008)

If you decide to ff him, I would clear up the aggression in the run/house issues first! Put him in situations where he can't hurt the other dog/person but get him to growl, charge the gate etc... in a natural setting where you can correct it and show him that it's not an acceptable behavior without tormenting him if that makes sense. But not get on him too hard to where it makes him nervous. Maybe he just doesn't know how to act and his owner lets him do whatever he wants. 


I don't know if you use a place board or not but I would ff off the place board which would give him something else to think about (staying on the platform). That way it gives him two things to think about, staying on the place board and fetch and not having the good footing he would have in the grass. 

The only real way to find out how he will react is by doing it. He may not try to bite you until a few days or a week or so into it. You'll just have to monitor his behavior and maybe go back to some more obedience before moving on. I really think his obedience should be sharp and snappy before forcing this dog. I'd also recommend doing some obedience with him before forcing. If he does try to bite, he will either come up or most likely bite the hand or arm holding the dowel. He may just be bluffing and once you get the obedience down it may go away. He is still young and didn't exhibit any growling in some of the testing you did with him. 

I'm sure you have but I would make sure the owner is up to date on all of the dogs actions.


Cons of forcing this dog

1. If you get bit bad enough it will limit what you can do for a week or more (other training dogs/ washing bowls etc...) Been there done that!

2. Even if he's bluffing, can you teach the owner/owner's how to handle him on a daily basis. Usually when you see this behavior it something that will never really go away and needs to be monitored all the time. Can the owners do that if he does go through with this (I'm betting not).


Pro's of forcing this dog

1. You could learn allot from him. If he's bluffing and you can change his behavior, it would give you something to compare against in the future.

2. If you get bit, it would give you something to compare against in the future.:razz:

3. He sounds like an assertive male with potential. If you can get him through this, he may make a great dog but the owners will need to know how to handle him (this will be the hardest part).

Just some things to think about.


Chris Hendra


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## DucterJim (Mar 17, 2007)

I have nothing to add on how to handle this dog. But as a guy that uses pro trainers on all my dogs I would like to share my thoughts. If this was my dog and with everything I have read here, I would not want the dog back. I am sure I could handle the dog once Kristie did her job if she taught me what to watch for and what to do. But----- I have Grandkids, I hunt with many others, I stay most of season at duck club with many other people and kids and dogs around. I don't want to spend my fun time monitoring a dogs behavior because I don't trust him, I need a dog that is totally trustworthy that I can leave on my Ranger with the birds and kids can come up and pet them or dogs can approach the pile. I hunt around 100 days a year and I don't care how talented a dog is unless it is a good citizen he is not going to be hunting with me. If it was my dog I would give it to Kristie and let her do whatever she wanted with it. There doesn't appear to be any shortage of great hunting dogs that doesn't exhibit these problems. Out of the 30 or 40 dogs at my hunt club, the only problem child I have ever seen is a Springer, most other dogs are Labs, but some Chessies and a few German Wirehairs, most have been pro trained and all good citizens except in the bathroom behavior. 

So in closing Kristie, make the owner make a decision now.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Too many nice dogs in this world...no thanks.


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

Kristie:

Hope this story has a happy ending at some point.

I'm not a lawyer - you might bounce this off yours at some point - maybe there is a standard practice with pro trainers for aggressive dogs...

Just a thought because I'm a paranoid skeptical worry wart that has been around the insurance and risk managment businesses way too long. If this dog is released to the folks that sent him to you I would make sure that I clearly outlined the dogs behavioral issues in writing, including a statement that the list is not exhaustive and that other problems may occur in differing scenarios. I'm not sure if you'd want to make any specific recommendations as to suggested actions - that's lawyer stuff. I'd have them sign a statement of understanding ( a release) as well agreeing to hold you harmless, and I'd probably advise that they have an obligation in the event of a transfer of the dog to fully inform the recipient.

Way too many folks in the world that are gonna come looking for your policy limits if Fido snaps later, and they're gonna stick with the story that 'they didn't know that could happen' and you never advised them of the problems...

That's just me- like I said, I'm a worry wart...


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