# HELP - Pile Work 'Shopping'



## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

I have a young dog, that has had some professional field training. She is a high energy dog with lots of drive. We have her home now to let her 'mature' a bit more, before any further pro work. When I picked her up she was doing pile work at around 60 yds and running singles very well. She also ran the pile very well. So at home our training routine started with more singles, which she continues to do very well, water and land. Our problem has started with her pile work, she started shopping. I think I messed something up, not sure what I did, but I decided to go back to the mini pile drill (Smartwork) using a pinch collar and check cord. This works pretty well, but she will run one time perfectly, then the next she will try to cheat....I pull her back and run again....but we have been doing this for a week or so, and I am not sure I am making progress.....any ideas.....I am calling my pro on this, but I want other opinions. This is all being done in the yard so she has visuals. When running on the mini pile I do not use the e collar, just the pinch....


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Here-nick.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

One thing that will help is to spread your bumpers in your pile out with a couple feet in between them, like a diamond. This makes it somewhat less tempting to shop.  And get it under control with a lead or a "here/nick"here" 

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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Well, they were in a diamond when I typed it. Oh well.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Has the dog been collar conditioned?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Spreading out the bumpers really helped me when my pup started shopping. I was actually surprised that such a simple thing would help so much! In our case, I spread them out so there was at least 12" of space all the way around each one, then when she hit the first bumper with her mouth, I blew the come in whistle and used my voice to call her in. If it were me, I would start with that and not add any ropes or nicks to the equation until you really need them. 

Have heard others say that nicking near the pile may create it's own can of worms.


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

Agree with Mark. But, if that doesn't work, try to simplify the drill even further by shortening the distance to the back pile so that the dog can clear identify the pile from the line and reducing the number of bumpers in the pile. Start with only 2 bumpers spread out give or take 3' apart and slowly increase the # in the pile as the dog progresses. Something else that helps is to put white bumpers out initially so that from the line the dog can see that there is more than one bumper. This avoids the confusion taking place when they get to the pile. You can concentrate on the dog's focus at the line all the way to the pile. Once proficient with white, move to orange. Then move back to a greater distance.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Is it really that big of a problem that the dog shops the pile, especially early on? Is this the battle you want to win right now? How many bumpers/birds will be there to pick up while hunting, testing or trialing? I know some who think shopping is the same as switching but having just dissected this problem for my own dog, I have come to the conclusion to not let it bother me, especially when the dog is fully aware of what a diversion is and does not switch for a diversion.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Spreading out the bumpers really helped me when my pup started shopping. I was actually surprised that such a simple thing would help so much! In our case, I spread them out so there was at least 12" of space all the way around each one, then when she hit the first bumper with her mouth, I blew the come in whistle and used my voice to call her in. If it were me, I would start with that and not add any ropes or nicks to the equation until you really need them.
> 
> Have heard others say that nicking near the pile may create it's own can of worms.


Here-click, then?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

swampcollielover said:


> I have a young dog, that has had some professional field training. She is a high energy dog with lots of drive. We have her home now to let her 'mature' a bit more, before any further pro work. When I picked her up she was doing pile work at around 60 yds and running singles very well. She also ran the pile very well. So at home our training routine started with more singles, which she continues to do very well, water and land. Our problem has started with her pile work, she started shopping. I think I messed something up, not sure what I did, but I decided to go back to the mini pile drill (Smartwork) using a pinch collar and check cord. This works pretty well, but she will run one time perfectly, then the next she will try to cheat.


By "cheat" do you mean shop?


swampcollielover said:


> ...I pull her back and run again.


You call her back without forcing her on a bumper? What Smartwork course materials do you have?


swampcollielover said:


> ...but we have been doing this for a week or so, and I am not sure I am making progress.


A week with no change for the better should tell you something significant. You're not training, you're nagging.


swampcollielover said:


> ....any ideas.....I am calling my pro on this, but I want other opinions. This is all being done in the yard so she has visuals. When running on the mini pile I do not use the e collar, just the pinch....


Why no e-collar on mini-pile?

Evan


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## Paul Frey (Jun 15, 2012)

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the purpose of pile work? Im a newbe just training for hunting. Just wondering. Thanks in advance.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Hooked on Quack said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but what is the purpose of pile work? Im a newbe just training for hunting. Just wondering. Thanks in advance.


It is one of many steps that help you teach a dog to run blinds.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Spreading out the bumpers really helped me when my pup started shopping.


Jennifer,

If you're familiar with the Smartwork method you know we start with Mini-pile, which is 3 bumpers with several feet between them in the first place. We do this before setting a full pile to work for two important reasons. First, it's simpler, and that allows the trainer to school the dog to fetch the first bumper he comes to and recall. That is also why we use a rope for low pressure control. We then set a full (9-bumper) pile - again with good separation between bumpers, and continue to use a rope until the dog shows it has become his habit to fetch only the first bumper he comes to and recall promptly. Simple, fair, and easy.


Jennifer Henion said:


> I was actually surprised that such a simple thing would help so much!


But you must understand that such a measure only helps with the teaching aspect. You're not really training through the issue for long term reliability by only hiding from it.


Jennifer Henion said:


> In our case, I spread them out so there was *at least 12" of space all the way around each one*, then when she hit the first bumper with her mouth, I blew the come in whistle and used my voice to call her in.


That's how we set piles during Basics; about foot of space around each one, but no more than that - even when we begin to run to the pile at longer distances. At that point we're starting to look for opportunities to correct for shopping.

As we extend distance at this point it looks like this as we back away from the pile.










But it's important to remember that at these distances we're still using a rope because we are extending distance, and distance erodes control.


Jennifer Henion said:


> If it were me, I would start with that *and not add any ropes or nicks* to the equation until you really need them.


Why throw your tools away as you train?


Jennifer Henion said:


> Have heard others say that nicking near the pile may create it's own can of worms.


People who tell you that are confessing that they don't understand the goals and purposes of the training. 

Evan


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

GulfCoast said:


> One thing that will help is to spread your bumpers in your pile out with a couple feet in between them, like a diamond. This makes it somewhat less tempting to shop. And get it under control with a lead or a "here/nick"here"
> 
> ***
> *** ***
> ...


Hi Mississippi....I lived in Memphis for 10 years and my son went to MSU. He married a real nice Southern girl from Starkville.... Anyway thanks for your comments. I am following Smartworks, Pile work. When our girl started shopping, I took her back to the first step which is the "mini-pile" consisting of 3 bumpers laid in a row about 3 feet apart. That is the drill I am working with her on using a pinch collar and a check cord. I see the diamond shape pile is the 2nd step in Smartworks, would this work better? She is collar trained, so what most are saying is try this spread style pile with a' here nick....Let me know your thoughts....and thanks!


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## Paul Frey (Jun 15, 2012)

OK Thank Yoy Mitty.


mitty said:


> It is one of many steps that help you teach a dog to run blinds.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Has the dog been collar conditioned?


Yes....by our Pro trainer...


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Evan said:


> Jennifer,
> 
> If you're familiar with the Smartwork method you know we start with Mini-pile, which is 3 bumpers with several feet between them in the first place. We do this before setting a full pile to work for two important reasons. First, it's simpler, and that allows the trainer to school the dog to fetch the first bumper he comes to and recall. That is also why we use a rope for low pressure control. We then set a full (9-bumper) pile - again with good separation between bumpers, and continue to use a rope until the dog shows it has become his habit to fetch only the first bumper he comes to and recall promptly. Simple, fair, and easy.But you must understand that such a measure only helps with the teaching aspect. You're not really training through the issue for long term reliability by only hiding from it.That's how we set piles during Basics; about foot of space around each one, but no more than that - even when we begin to run to the pile at longer distances. At that point we're starting to look for opportunities to correct for shopping.
> 
> ...


Hi Evan, Good information, I will send you an email....TKS


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Well, it worked for us to not use a rope or nick in the first place, so didn't throw away any tools. But, I get your point. Others may benefit from / need the rope and nick.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Well, it worked for us to not use a rope or nick in the first place, so didn't throw away any tools. But, I get your point. Others may benefit from / need the rope and nick.


That will truly depend on how high they set their standards. It's like when people ask "Do I really need to force fetch?" 

Evan


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Evan said:


> That will truly depend on how high they set their standards. It's like when people ask "Do I really need to force fetch?"
> 
> Evan


Well, I didn't force fetch either, so... But we did get 2 senior ribbons this past weekend with some difficult tests. Not bad for an 18 month old who wasn't forced...Not that there's anything wrong with it


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Well, it worked for us to not use a rope or nick in the first place, so didn't throw away any tools. But, I get your point. Others may benefit from / need the rope and nick.


Had a few that done some shopping! ,and yes creating a pile of goodies in the same spot can make some ''spoilt for choice''?..
Over here we ain't got no cc,and don't use no pinch' or dare not use a lead 'when teaching non slip dogs'...they gotta do it all by themselves!.....
We just make them so hungry for the next one! they have to come back with the first!......We 100% focus on re-call...first!..and usually 'just before' the dog gets the bumper


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

I wonder why its so important to worry about? Is it cause they may drop a crippled bird and pick up another in a hunting situation.
I have one that brings 2 bumpers at a time, back on blinds. Scoops them up so quick I dont know it till he returns?
We always set out extra bumpers for him.
Never had a problem hunting


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

If I were your pro, you brought me the dog back with a problem that had developed while you had her home and told me you used advice from RTF to attempt to fix it, I would fire you as a customer. Call your pro and do what they say! 

If the dog wasn't doing this when she came home, you created the problem, probably with the e-collar. 

Call your pro.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Brad, I don't get it either. I think it is that the dog is being disobedient by not returning promptly, but like you say how often does a scenario of multiple choice appear? Mostly I train alone. Most of the time I put out one bumper so dog has no opportunity to shop the pile. So anti-pile shopping is not a skill I maintain. So I, too, am wondering, how I might benefit by training against pile shopping?

Polmaise, I am truly interested in a description of your counter measures.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> If I were your pro, you brought me the dog back with a problem that had developed while you had her home and told me you used advice from RTF to attempt to fix it, I would fire you as a customer. Call your pro and do what they say!
> 
> If the dog wasn't doing this when she came home, you created the problem, probably with the e-collar.
> 
> Call your pro.


Great advice...but I hope the pro doesn't fire the customer, he's just learning!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

mitty said:


> Most of the time I put out one bumper so dog has no opportunity to shop the pile. So anti-pile shopping is not a skill I maintain. So I, too, am wondering, how I might benefit by training against pile shopping?
> 
> .


Must take you a long time to do pile drills. Additionally I would think this would be hard to get a rhythm going


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> If I were your pro, you brought me the dog back with a problem that had developed while you had her home and told me you used advice from RTF to attempt to fix it, I would fire you as a customer. Call your pro and do what they say!
> 
> If the dog wasn't doing this when she came home, you created the problem, probably with the e-collar.
> 
> Call your pro.


Winna winna!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

mitty said:


> Great advice...but I hope the pro doesn't fire the customer, he's just learning!


How many all age dogs see a pile? Once you go past the drills, where you worry about pile shopping, is pile shopping even on your radar?


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

mitty said:


> How many all age dogs see a pile? Once you go past the drills, where you worry about pile shopping, is pile shopping even on your radar?


Perhaps, thousands see a pile on a regular basis.

Yes! It is on my radar!

Do you always train alone and with only one dog?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Well, I didn't force fetch either, so... But we did get 2 senior ribbons this past weekend with some difficult tests. Not bad for an 18 month old who wasn't forced...Not that there's anything wrong with it


 you passed two master tests and I guess you figure you've got it made now.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Perhaps, thousands see a pile on a regular basis.
> 
> Yes! It is on my radar!
> 
> Do you always train alone and with only one dog?


I'd guess 9/10th of my training is alone. My dog is 2.5 years old going on maybe 1.5 years training wise!

When I train in groups, they do not make me run last! 

Maybe by the time dog gets there, I'm just grateful...she seems to come back quick on real blinds.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> you passed two master tests and I guess you figure you've got it made now.


I think she said Sr tests


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

mitty said:


> I think it is that the dog is being disobedient by not returning promptly, but like you say *how often does a scenario of multiple choice appear*? Mostly I train alone. Most of the time I put out one bumper so dog has no opportunity to shop the pile. So anti-pile shopping is not a skill I maintain. So I, too, am wondering, how I might benefit by training against pile shopping?
> 
> *Polmaise, I am truly interested in a description of your counter measures*.


Hoping not to divert the thread away from the originator and absolutely agree that if the OP is already attending a pro trainer they should seek advice there.
However, in answer to your interest Renee' .This is something 'we' train for intensively for the activity primarily on driven shoot days where there are multiple choices and often they are still flapping and squawking but going nowhere! So the dog must get and get back pronto with the first intended target! We call this 'changing game' which is a cardinal sin on a shoot day and an eliminating fault in a field trial.
So,counter measures?.we again have no 'programme' as such to fall back on,or ff or ftp or cc,so we have make sure the dog has first class '*pick up*' of the target (we can backchain to hold for this) ,so we sound the re-call whistle about 1 metre before the dog gets to the '*pick up*' . This is all done on marked retrieves, before we advance to a pile or group of targets with a blind.Another consideration from a driven shooting viewpoint, is much of the ground that the dog is expected to retrieve from is very dense and often the handler cannot see the dog in amongst the multiple targets ,and may also not know how many there are?...therefore a dog that 'changes game' (shops at the pile) is most likely to 'leave' unnoticed to the handler dead game!!! *that is the most cardinal sin of all*,and would result in you being sent home and to Coventry'


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> If I were your pro, you brought me the dog back with a problem that had developed while you had her home and told me you used advice from RTF to attempt to fix it, I would fire you as a customer. Call your pro and do what they say!
> 
> If the dog wasn't doing this when she came home, you created the problem, probably with the e-collar.
> 
> Call your pro.


Darin, as I noted earlier, I am in contact with my Pro....that being said, I never think any body has all the answers. I ask questions and listen to differing opinions, then make my decisions that I must live with. This includes my Pro...ultimately, I am the one who is responsible for the result I get. Additionally, it is not my intent to 'bring my dog back' to my Pro with a problem. It is my intent to fix the problem and continue progressing the dog through training, until she has matured a bit more. Nuff Said!


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

swampcollielover said:


> Darin, as I noted earlier, I am in contact with my Pro....that being said, I never think any body has all the answers. I ask questions and listen to differing opinions, then make my decisions that I must live with. This includes my Pro...ultimately, I am the one who is responsible for the result I get. Additionally, it is not my intent to 'bring my dog back' to my Pro with a problem. It is my intent to fix the problem and continue progressing the dog through training, until she has matured a bit more. Nuff Said!


The methods and means by which each trainer gets their dog from point A to point B can vary slightly to immensely. If you are pleased with your pro and the results that your pro has produced with your dog up to this point, work directly with your pro (As Darin has suggested). You have already invested the time, money and effort in the pro and the dog. If you decide it's best to divert from your pro, pick a proven method/program and follow that program to the "T". That's the only fair way to know if the trainer and/or program is successful for both yourself and your dog. Taking bits and pieces from different programs & trainers is like trying to get a Chevy body, Dodge engine and Ford transmission to work cohesively together. If you can do that, people are asking for your advice, not the other way around. Utilizing a definitive program gives you the tools needed for revisiting/refreshing/simplifying when encountering specific problems, ie bumper shopping. This doesn't work if your not building off a solid foundation.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't believe shopping the pile is a big deal. 
But if you want to train your dog on lineing drills and that's what pile work is and you don't want the dog shopping the pile. Change over to ladder drills this will give your dog less of a chance to shop the pile. And will not under mine what your pro has trained into the dog. This other stuff of nick-burn whistle or whatever BS could and most likely creat issues for the dog and cause your trainer a headache. And you a lot of money in unneeded training. 
So try running ladder drills.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

I agree. No big deal for me and it will not cause problems down the line unless the dog is spending like 30 seconds shopping.




Golden Boy said:


> I don't believe shopping the pile is a big deal.
> But if you want to train your dog on lineing drills and that's what pile work is and you don't want the dog shopping the pile. Change over to ladder drills this will give your dog less of a chance to shop the pile. And will not under mine what your pro has trained into the dog. This other stuff of nick-burn whistle or whatever BS could and most likely creat issues for the dog and cause your trainer a headache. And you a lot of money in unneeded training.
> So try running ladder drills.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Golden Boy said:


> I don't believe shopping the pile is a big deal.
> But if you want to train your dog on lineing drills and that's what pile work is and you don't want the dog shopping the pile. *Change over to ladder drills this will give your dog less of a chance to shop the pile*. And will not under mine what your pro has trained into the dog.


I had pretty much checked out of this thread, but it continues spiraling downward. It's worthy of note for those who have no reluctance to actually train through training problems, rather than hide from them and being satisfied with that. Many folks are satisfied with this, I understand that. I'm only speaking to those who choose the path of being smart over one of relying on being lucky.

What you see is not always what you get. That is often true in dog training, and it's true of shopping the pile. If your performance goals long term are toward a minimal level this may not develop into a problem for you. But the higher you choose to develop your dog the more such behavior can cause problems, and here are some aspects to think about. Remember, I realize this won't affect everyone.

When a dog shops the pile he is _*not*_ obeying the simplest obedience commands, nor is he complying with three "musts"; standards that must be upheld for a reliable retriever; Go, Stop, Come. If he's already chosen a bumper, and he's now shopping, what is he NOT doing? He's not coming. If he were coming, he would have no time to shop. Pretty simple, isn't it? But there's more. 

Mind you, I'm speaking from my own experience, my own course of training, and the standards I impose as a result. When developing a working retriever through my course of formal Basics we take the dog through familiar steps that form a complete course of force fetch as follows.

1. Hold (of course)
2. Ear pinch to fetch - sequentially moving from 'fetch in front', step by step to 'fetch from ground'
3. Stick fetch (optional in my program)
4. E-collar condition to fetch
5. Walking fetch
6. Fetch-no-fetch
7. Mini-pile
8. Force to (9-bumper) pile

I won't go into all the goals and purposes for each step, except to state that each step is regarded as a link in the chain that ultimately forms a fully force fetched dog. Such a dog will have habits the handler can rely on. As the dog went through the transitions from steps 5-8 we developed a standard - from a simple form to a highly developed one - of fetching the very first bumper he came to, and moving. In steps 5 & 6 the movement was forward; "fetch", "heel", "sit", "drop". During the brief transitional step 7 we introduce "fetch & recall" in its simplest and most compact form for easy control while introducing the trained retrieve; fetching that first bumper, returning promptly to the side, sitting, and delivering as commanded. Having established that in close quarters, we move to step 8, and begin extending distance in small increments. All of this is to thoroughly educate the dog in the standards of what will be expected each time he retrieves. Hence the name applied to how such a dog performs each retrieve in the field; The "fully-trained retrieve". 

This is how I want it done. He knows it inside and out by now. To enforce it in the field is not unfair or traumatic. It's how he knows to do business, and it has been done not only in a methodical way for the purposes of education, but also in a balanced way so that he also enjoys living within this standard. Infractions are quickly and easily managed. If you don't want that, don't do it.


Golden Boy said:


> *This other stuff of nick-burn whistle or whatever BS could and most likely creat issues* for the dog and cause your trainer a headache. And you a lot of money in unneeded training.
> So try running ladder drills.


Correcting with a tug of a rope, or a nick of an e-collar for a poor effort to comply with commands and functions the dog knows so well does not create "issues". It solves them. If such corrections create problems, the trainer has only to look in the mirror to find the reason. He or she has not sufficiently trained the dog, and that is each person's decision.

Evan


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Evan said:


> *I had pretty much checked out of this thread, but it continues spiraling downward.*
> 
> *When a dog shops the pile he is not obeying the simplest obedience commands, nor is he complying with three "musts"; standards that must be upheld for a reliable retriever; Go, Stop, Come. If he's already chosen a bumper, and he's now shopping, what is he NOT doing? He's not coming. If he were coming, he would have no time to shop. Pretty simple, isn't it? But there's more. *


Without prejudice . I pretty much agree with my previous post. Y'all get hung up on stuff that is pretty basic really.
But I 'do need clarification' on the 'stop'? 

Is everyone over there sold on a programme? and resolutions to training on a programme? ..So why is there so many problems? 
I for one ,am having a real problem wondering why there is so many threads on training issues when explicit programmes have been devised to assure the handler success!?..
Is it the dogs?
Or are Y'all just having a laugh and a beer?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Without prejudice . I pretty much agree with my previous post. Y'all get hung up on stuff that is pretty basic really.


Some are focusing on doing good Basics. Some are focused on trying to get out of doing good Basics, and instead hoping to get by otherwise. If you do good Basics the rest is easier to add and to maintain.


polmaise said:


> But I 'do need clarification' on the 'stop'?


One whistle blast, dog stops, sits, looks at handler for a cast. He must go for any type of retrieve to take place. He must stop for any handling to take place. He must come when called or he's not a retriever...he's just a 'go getter'. If he'll do those 3 things he's working with you, and you can teach him to do anything.


polmaise said:


> Is everyone over there sold on a programme? and resolutions to training on a programme? ..So why is there so many problems?


I realize it's mostly perception, but not entirely. But there are so many problems because of how trainers apply the various 'programmes'. Skip steps = problems. Easy!


polmaise said:


> I for one ,am having a real problem wondering why there is so many threads on training issues when explicit programmes have been devised to assure the handler success!?..
> Is it the dogs?


Sometimes. Usually, it's how the people apply and/or maintain the training...or not.


polmaise said:


> Or are Y'all just having a laugh and a beer?


Many do that instead of train I think. 

Evan


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Oh dear!
I'm being analysed !
This should be fun
Where is the dogs?


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Polmaise,

There are programs that generally take a trainer through the basics. The problem is that with new trainers like myself, you are trying to put a puzzle together without the picture on the box. IOW, you don't really know what it is supposed to look like when you are through. 

The other problem is that dogs' reactions to the (clumsy and untimely) application of the techniques illustrated in the programs causes all sorts of reactions in individual dogs, and there is no resource where all possible reactions are listed with the reaction that the trainer should have. Even if there could be such a resource, you only have about 1.5 seconds to find and apply the technique before your timing is off. 

Finally, some folks just naturally understand critters a little better than the rest of us.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

swampcollielover said:


> I have a young dog, that has had some professional field training. She is a high energy dog with lots of drive. We have her home now to let her 'mature' a bit more, before any further pro work. When I picked her up she was doing pile work at around 60 yds and running singles very well. She also ran the pile very well. So at home our training routine started with more singles, which she continues to do very well, water and land. Our problem has started with her pile work, she started shopping. I think I messed something up, not sure what I did, but I decided to go back to the mini pile drill (Smartwork) using a pinch collar and check cord. This works pretty well, but she will run one time perfectly, then the next she will try to cheat....I pull her back and run again....but we have been doing this for a week or so, and I am not sure I am making progress.....any ideas....*.I am calling my pro on this*, but I want other opinions. This is all being done in the yard so she has visuals. When running on the mini pile I do not use the e collar, just the pinch....


I haven't read the other posts on your subject, but what is in bold sounds like a great idea.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Like Evan I had pretty well checked out on this thread. But I agree with his ideas about requiring at least a certain level of performance-NO SHOPPING-NO BRINGING BACK TWO!. 

Polmaise gives both practical and field trial test reasons for this. 

Any time you train in a group and you put out bumpers for the number of dogs being trained, you do not want a dog bringing back more than his allotment (ONE!)

As forAll-age dogs, the vast majority will be confronted with a pile of bumpers because the vast majority are not trained one-on-one.
I just finished filming a new video on handling drills and exercises. I was reminded how often ALL levels of dogs are confronted with piles of bumpers and how often it would be disruptive to shop or to pick up more than one.

Cheers

Dennis
PS toPolmaise: A program simply lays out proven steps and a sequential set oflessons. It in no way ensures that all will successfully follow the steps or teach the lessons properly. But, at least it provides some clear guidance to away that avoids subjecting the dogs to all the perils of trial and error. Much of the past has dwelled on the error. It is sad that some can’t avoid that and subject their dogs to too much trial!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

polmaise said:


> Hoping not to divert the thread away from the originator and absolutely agree that if the OP is already attending a pro trainer they should seek advice there.
> However, in answer to your interest Renee' .This is something 'we' train for intensively for the activity primarily on driven shoot days where there are multiple choices and often they are still flapping and squawking but going nowhere! So the dog must get and get back pronto with the first intended target! We call this 'changing game' which is a cardinal sin on a shoot day and an eliminating fault in a field trial.
> So,counter measures?.we again have no 'programme' as such to fall back on,or ff or ftp or cc,so we have make sure the dog has first class '*pick up*' of the target (we can backchain to hold for this) ,so we sound the re-call whistle about 1 metre before the dog gets to the '*pick up*' . This is all done on marked retrieves, before we advance to a pile or group of targets with a blind.Another consideration from a driven shooting viewpoint, is much of the ground that the dog is expected to retrieve from is very dense and often the handler cannot see the dog in amongst the multiple targets ,and may also not know how many there are?...therefore a dog that 'changes game' (shops at the pile) is most likely to 'leave' unnoticed to the handler dead game!!! *that is the most cardinal sin of all*,and would result in you being sent home and to Coventry'


Thank you!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I guess I'm in the Evan and Dennis camp. I expect a dog to get a bumper and bring it back. This is mostly worked out in yard work, or basics. He can shop on his own time, I got work to do and other dogs to train. By the time I get to true t work they know what they should, I don't lower my standards so the can dilly dally around.

/Paul


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Dennis
> 
> PS toPolmaise: A program simply lays out proven steps and a sequential set oflessons. It in no way ensures that all will successfully follow the steps or teach the lessons properly. But, at least it provides some clear guidance to away that avoids subjecting the dogs to all the perils of trial and error. Much of the past has dwelled on the error. It is sad that some can’t avoid that and subject their dogs to too much trial!




I hear You Dennis


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I guess I'm in the Evan and Dennis camp. I expect a dog to get a bumper and bring it back. This is mostly worked out in yard work, or basics. He can shop on his own time, I got work to do and other dogs to train. By the time I get to true t work they know what they should, I don't lower my standards so the can dilly dally around.
> 
> /Paul


Yep ....training to a high standard. No a collar or a rope won't lead to other issues , IF your FF is solid, again training to a high standard


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Evan said:


> I had pretty much checked out of this thread, but it continues spiraling downward. It's worthy of note for those who have no reluctance to actually train through training problems, rather than hide from them and being satisfied with that. Many folks are satisfied with this, I understand that. I'm only speaking to those who choose the path of being smart over one of relying on being lucky.
> 
> What you see is not always what you get. That is often true in dog training, and it's true of shopping the pile. If your performance goals long term are toward a minimal level this may not develop into a problem for you. But the higher you choose to develop your dog the more such behavior can cause problems, and here are some aspects to think about. Remember, I realize this won't affect everyone.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of what your saying. The dog doesn't come when called or comes back when he's ready. And this is a major violation of simple OB.
But I was trying to provide this person an alternative to pile work that could be done without pressure and reducing the chance for the dog to shop the pile. It's obvious this person has limited knowlegde of retriever training and as stated is sending the dog to a pro trainer. 
So why have a person with limited knowledge burning a dog??? When no one is there to provide supervision. 
I believe the e-collar in the wrong hands does more damage than good. We need to be fair to the dog..........that is going back to the trainer anyway.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

swampcollielover said:


> Darin, as I noted earlier, I am in contact with my Pro....that being said, I never think any body has all the answers. I ask questions and listen to differing opinions, then make my decisions that I must live with. This includes my Pro...ultimately, I am the one who is responsible for the result I get. Additionally, it is not my intent to 'bring my dog back' to my Pro with a problem. It is my intent to fix the problem and continue progressing the dog through training, until she has matured a bit more. Nuff Said!


Hate to say this, and it's obviously up to you, but if I'm paying a guy $500-$900 a month to train my dog, I'm using his (or her) advice and their advice only.

Several reasons for this.

1. The pro knows YOUR DOG. They may have run into this issue before and know exactly what was done previously to correct it.
2. The pro knowing your dog may have a good idea why this cropped up. We here have no idea other giving the typical reasons.
3. The pro is going to have to deal with whatever you create. 
4. This is a simple problem and you asking for solutions indicates a level of training experience that renders you incapable of making your own decisions. 

Maybe I'm wrong about that last one and you've trained 100 dogs to handle, but this is pretty basic stuff. 

Sorry to sound harsh.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Golden Boy said:


> I agree with a lot of what your saying. The dog doesn't come when called or comes back when he's ready. And this is a major violation of simple OB.
> But I was trying to provide this person an alternative to pile work that could be done without pressure and reducing the chance for the dog to shop the pile.


There are several points that should be made about these comments, and I hope to offer helpful information by doing so. One item to start with is that an alternative would be to train the dog to have better skills, but by a different method. Running Ladder Drills, or spreading out the bumpers more widely is a good beginning. But it's only a start toward establishing a function. It is not a solution for shopping. That will take training. The methods mentioned are training approaches to actively eradicate the unwanted behavior, not just gloss over it. That's the fundamental difference in approaches.


Golden Boy said:


> It's obvious this person has limited knowlegde of retriever training and as stated is sending the dog to a pro trainer.


Not so much limited knowledge so much as limited understanding.


swampcollielover said:


> I think I messed something up, not sure what I did, but I decided to go back to the mini pile drill (*Smartwork*) using a pinch collar and check cord.


He has knowledge of the techniques and of the tools involved. But it appears parts of it are not understood. That only requires a bit more information, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. He hasn't been doing the wrong thing, so much as it seems he's been doing it the wrong way. That's not the big deal it's being portrayed as being.


Golden Boy said:


> So why have a person with limited knowledge burning a dog??? When no one is there to provide supervision.


Who said anything about "burning"? "Here"/nick is an appropriate application of a schooled stimulus. It isn't cruelty, or unfair. It's using your tools to train a dog through a training issue.


Golden Boy said:


> I believe the e-collar in the wrong hands does more damage than good. We need to be fair to the dog..........that is going back to the trainer anyway.


That's fine. But it's not all he needs. If he doesn't come to understand how to train through training problems he won't ever advance his own work as owner/trainer. He will gain most by working with his pro AND learning more about the method by which the dog was trained. 

He will gain least by hiding from the problem, and assuming that it's now solved.

Evan


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Golden Boy said:


> I agree with a lot of what your saying. The dog doesn't come when called or comes back when he's ready. And this is a major violation of simple OB.
> But I was trying to provide this person an alternative to pile work that could be done without pressure and reducing the chance for the dog to shop the pile. It's obvious this person has limited knowlegde of retriever training and as stated is sending the dog to a pro trainer.
> So why have a person with limited knowledge burning a dog??? When no one is there to provide supervision.
> I believe the e-collar in the wrong hands does more damage than good. We need to be fair to the dog..........that is going back to the trainer anyway.


I see what you are saying, but assuming this dog has been properly FFd and CCd, how much knowledge does it take to see the dog shopping and give him a come-in/nick/come in?

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why it would make a difference that the dog is going back to the trainer. I am going to pick up my dog next weekend, and I hope to spend a couple days watching and being coached by my trainer on how to do it the way he has been doing it.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> I see what you are saying, but assuming this dog has been properly FFd and CCd, how much knowledge does it take to see the dog shopping and give him a come-in/nick/come in?
> 
> I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why it would make a difference that the dog is going back to the trainer. I am going to pick up my dog next weekend, and I hope to spend a couple days watching and being coached by my trainer on how to do it the way he has been doing it.


Since it appears the trainer who had the dog previously FF'd and CC'd the dog, I think it's a very safe bet that "Here"/nick will be prominent in the treatment of this issue. Make sense to me.

Evan


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Thanks to everyone for the comments and opinions, it is sincerely appreciated. 
I especially appreciate the comments from experienced trainers, and accept the fact that some are ‘wanna be’experienced trainers. I assume deep down you all know which category you are in! 
These forums are good for getting opinions, but like belly buttons everyone has one. The challenge is picking out the wheat from the chaff.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I see what you are saying, but assuming this dog has been properly FFd and CCd, how much knowledge does it take to see the dog shopping and give him a come-in/nick/come in?
> 
> I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why it would make a difference that the dog is going back to the trainer. I am going to pick up my dog next weekend, and I hope to spend a couple days watching and being coached by my trainer on how to do it the way he has been doing it.


The violation isn't the dog shopping the pile. *The violation is the dog not obeying the here command*, so some where in training or someplace else this dog has learned that it can get away with this type of action. If it were me I'd go back to basic OB with this dog and work my way back up. It should move along rather quickly or it may not depending on the dog, trainer and or previous training. 
As for waiting to send the dog back to the trainer. Why risk creating an issue that the trainer will have to work thru. *I also don't believe that proper FF or CC has been done. Had it been done correctly the dog would be returning to the handler quickly and briskly with the first bumper it could get too. * And we wouldn't be talking about this issue. 
*Again the main violation here isn't shopping the pile, it's the dog not returning to the handler quickly with the first bumper in sight.*


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Golden Boy said:


> *I also don't believe that proper FF or CC has been done. Had it been done correctly the dog would be returning to the handler quickly and briskly with the first bumper it could get too. *


It may be that it was done - even done well. But it may also be that it was not maintained adequately. It would be interesting to get a report on how it all went at the pro's.

Evan


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Evan said:


> It may be that it was done - even done well. But it may also be that it was not maintained adequately. It would be interesting to get a report on how it all went at the pro's.
> 
> Evan


Right, right.....somewhere in training or someplace else the dog learned that it get away with this type of behavior. My understanding is the own just got the dog back.
But all the owner needs to do the know if the FF was done correctly. Is grab the dog by the collar fold a ear back don't even pinch the ear. then hold out a bumper and command fetch. If dog the trys to pull the owners arm off to get to the bumper it was done correctly. If not the dog was FF'd correctly.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes, that's really the point as I saw it. Use your tools. Keep them alive. If you don't, you risk them falling into disuse and degrading into a non-useful state. No matter how good a job any trainer did, they're still man made skills that require maintenance.

Evan


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Evan said:


> Yes, that's really the point as I saw it. Use your tools. Keep them alive. If you don't, you risk them falling into disuse and degrading into a non-useful state. No matter how good a job any trainer did, they're still man made skills that require maintenance.
> 
> Evan


Very well stated.
I have a question for you not as a dog trainer but as a person trainer. What has been the biggest training issue you seen with the first time dog trainer in thier training? 
I believe I know the answer but I'm not sure.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Often, even the newer trainer who has asked for help with training ideas isn't really looking for advice, so much as he may only be seeking affirmation that what he's already doing is the right thing. People are resistant to change, and would rather stay in the comfort of what little they may know, than to accept the forming new habits that would yield better results. What makes that so confounding is that each time thy go out to train their dogs that is exactly what they insist that the dog does!

"Where there is no vision the people perish" - Proverbs 29:18

It was true then. It's true now, isn't it? 

Evan


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> Yes, that's really the point as I saw it. Use your tools. Keep them alive. If you don't, you risk them falling into disuse and degrading into a non-useful state. No matter how good a job any trainer did, they're still man made skills that require maintenance.
> 
> Evan


Once we get out of the basics portion of the program we tend to forget about the maintaining of those skill we just taught....A review of them after the dog has had the winter or summer off is always a good idea....Steve S


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Evan said:


> Often, even the newer trainer who has asked for help with training ideas isn't really looking for advice, so much as he may only be seeking affirmation that what he's already doing is the right thing. People are resistant to change, and would rather stay in the comfort of what little they may know, than to accept the forming new habits that would yield better results. What makes that so confounding is that each time thy go out to train their dogs that is exactly what they insist that the dog does!
> 
> "Where there is no vision the people perish" - Proverbs 29:18
> 
> ...


OK not really what I was looking for but very true all the same. I believe most new trainers fail at timing.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I misunderstood. When you asked about "training issue" I went internal for the answer. Timing is certainly a common deficit. But that list could get long!

Evan


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

I know it can become a hugh list, but the two that come to my mind first is consistency & timing.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

As a pro that works with primarily new people to training, I would say learning to read the dog, applying what you know properly and timing. 

/Paul


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I would say learning to read the dog/Paul


I am surprised more replies to dog training problems on this board don't start with these simple words. Especially for a dog that just came back from the trainer where the handler may need time to get a good read on what the dog is really doing.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Golden Boy said:


> Right, right.....somewhere in training or someplace else the dog learned that it get away with this type of behavior. My understanding is the own just got the dog back.
> But all the owner needs to do the know if the FF was done correctly. Is grab the dog by the collar fold a ear back don't even pinch the ear. then hold out a bumper and command fetch. If dog the trys to pull the owners arm off to get to the bumper it was done correctly. If not the dog was FF'd correctly.


Come again. That's about as clear as mud


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## Chris Winkelman (Mar 23, 2011)

I personally have a dog that shops on blinds. To be honest she will sort thru the bumpers and pick one up she likes then returns. Bottom line is I have personally never corrected this because I believe it is a sort of release for the dog and during a test I jave never seen more than 1 bird at the blind post anyway. Take it for what its worth but I wouldn't even worry about it.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Come again. That's about as clear as mud


All the owner needs to do to know if FF was done correctly. Is grab the dog by the collar and fold back his ear as if to apply an ear pinch. Then in the other hand hold out a bumper and command the dog to fetch. If the dog pulls and trys to grab the bumper while being restained then FF was done correctly. If the dog does nothing, looks confused or lays down. Then FF wasn't done correctly. Unless the dog was FF using a toe hitch, which I wouldn't expect. Because most pro's do FF using the ear pinch method. 
Hope this helped you understand my piont.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Golden Boy said:


> All the owner needs to do to know if FF was done correctly. Is grab the dog by the collar and fold back his ear as if to apply an ear pinch. Then in the other hand hold out a bumper and command the dog to fetch. If the dog pulls and trys to grab the bumper while being restained then FF was done correctly. If the dog does nothing, looks confused or lays down. Then FF wasn't done correctly. Unless the dog was FF using a toe hitch, which I wouldn't expect. Because most pro's do FF using the ear pinch method.
> Hope this helped you understand my piont.


Reread your post that I commented on and tell me it's not confusing


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> As a pro that works with primarily new people to training, I would say learning to read the dog, applying what you know properly and timing.
> 
> /Paul


I agree....And learning the dog.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

I have seen several post saying " read the dog "...while very good advice it is not as easy for a first time trainer or even some more experienced to do as one might believe....Understanding it correctly is a learned art...Knowing the dog and its normal behaviors is very important....Steve S


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