# Hillman to Lardy or Hillman to Graham?



## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

I am getting the Bill Hillman video to bring my new BLM pup along with. My question to you is which of these two systems is the best transition over from the Hillman puppy DVD(Lardy or Graham)?

I know that Lardy has a flow chart that he likes for everyone to follow, but does the Hillman puppy DVD lead you off on the right foot to start in with Lardy when the time is right? Lardy is the way I was leading towards.

Anyone ever done this?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Both of the flow charts and the systems are similar and both start the basics with formal obedience after socialization, etc. Hillman basically would be the socialization and introduction to the field ( with some other things, like hold, introduced), so it would be easy to go with whichever system you felt you liked better.


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

I am ending up the Hillman Puppy and going into Hillman Fetch. The puppy ends with CC going into collar fetch. I would go into Lardy which is what I plan on doing after Hillman Fetch.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Don't over look Stawski's "Fowldawg" series. Very affordable and easy to follow.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I'm very pleased with the new edition of the Lardy Total Retriever.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I had a nice lunch with Mr. Hillman the other day.

We touched briefly on the notion of using his stuff and then transitioning into Lardy's. I'd say this would work brilliantly and that a good trainer, with a good dog would have wonderful success going this route.

Chris


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Choose the Carr-based system that suits you best. Any good one should be a fit to carry on from that good foundation. Pick a one that is sequential, and that you find understandable. Good luck.

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Evan said:


> Choose the Carr-based system that suits you best. Any good one should be a fit to carry on from that good foundation. Pick a one that is sequential, and that you find understandable. Good luck.
> 
> Evan


Evan

This is a very interesting suggestion and I think I understand it's basis. However, I think that in some ways Hillman is the antithesis of the Carr-based system although of course he uses elements of it like everyone else. How can you not?

What's also interesting to me is that the so-called "Lardy" system as discussed here is somewhat based on a Carr system because Mike learned a basic sequence from a Carr protegee. However, Mike did not study visit with Rex until the late 1990's long after he had refined and developed his own program and teachings. Consequently, many of Mike's approaches and his philosphy towards dogs is actually quite different than many Carr disciples.

I think that if you are going to follow Hillman's Puppy work and his Fetch command DVD you will need to adopt a quite different philosophy to force and pressure than a Carr based system. Witness many of the recent "problem" threads where the suggestion has routinely been "force". Many of these probelms would be treated very differently with a Hillman pup process. 

I am not saying that a Hillman style trained puppy can not be transitioned into a Carr based system BUT I am saying that a Hillman trained puppy is developed very differently than the classic Carr based system puppy. I think this leaves the territory open to train that puppy somewhat differently and with a different philosophy in the future.

PS. I am in the midst of yet another Hillman approach puppy blended with my own approaches and I can assure it challenges many of the conventional techniques. It is an ecclectic blend of many schools.

Cheers


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

my eleven month old has done quite well going from Hillman to Smartworks...

Anything to anything puts your puppy ahead of the vast majority of dogs.........


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Dennis,

Could you please elaborate on this part of your post, very interested hearing you explain the differences.



> Hillman trained puppy is developed very differently than the classic Carr based system puppy.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I think the Hillman video transitions pretty seamlessly into the Lardy program if you cut it off after the hold portion and condition to stick pressure and take the pup through a more traditional form of force fetch. Either way, Bill's approach to steadiness is light years better than the old horse jockey approach.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I am doing retriever training for the first time, I used Hillman's puppy DVD, and his fetch DVD. I've been following the Lardy program for a few weeks. After I finished Hillman's "fetch" I stumbled around the Lardy material for a few days---I went through some stuff like walking fetch just to make sure my pup was prepared and then started pile work. Being inexperienced, everything is taking me longer. 

From one newbie to another, my advice is to see if you know someone who will loan you their Lardy or the Smartworks or whatever else you are considering. Watch a little of each of them. Maybe one will appeal to you more than the other. You can find some clips on the internet. Preview them after you have used Hillman's puppy program for awhile, and if you use his fetch dvd watch a little of it ahead of time to get the idea where you will be when you are done. I went with TRT for various reasons (for example, some people I trained with use it) but I have Smartworks, too, and the two programs "feel" quite different to me. 

Anyhow, here's one more person that has used Hillman then Lardy.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Dennis,
> 
> Could you please elaborate on this part of your post, very interested hearing you explain the differences.
> 
> ...


I wonder what I missed. What is a classic Carr based puppy program?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> I* wonder what I missed. What is a classic Carr based puppy program?*



Thats what I was wondering...


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Hillman to Lardy.

x 3 What is a classic Carr based puppy program?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Evan
> 
> This is a very interesting suggestion and I think I understand it's basis. However, I think that in some ways Hillman is the antithesis of the Carr-based system although of course he uses elements of it like everyone else. How can you not?


Dennis,

I'm not inferring the two courses of study follow each other dynamically. Only that Hillman's is a puppy program first and foremost, and that it appears to produce a very sound foundation on which a puppy's formal education can be built. That's all I could ask for in a puppy coming into my Basics course. He provides them with lots of marks, good obedience & an essential course of force fetch - to which I would add the needed segments to continue.

I see no reason why a post-Hillman-trained pup would not be a good fit to start formal Basics in my program or Mike's. I surely wish the ones I used to get as a pro had preparation of that quality _before_ arriving at my kennel! 

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Kasomor said:


> Hillman to Lardy.
> 
> x 3 What is a classic Carr based puppy program?


When I said a Carr based puppy program, I meant the conventional approach used by those who use a Carr based program. That approach was also one that Rex endorsed and his clients followed for the most part in the past.

For those of you that have it, I explained in some depth the differences in the May-June 2009 issue of Retrievers ONLINE. In a nutshell, the conventional approach involves
1. Much environmental experience, 2. fun obedience but not a lot of high standard heel, here and sit until later, 3. Not steady until part way into Basics, 4. white bumpers-teach to use eyes, 5. lots of marks with gunners, guns, asap and let them go quickly.

Hillman is very different except for #1 above. 2. Lots of obedience-sit is huge, 3. Steady very young, 4. orange bumpers -emphasize nose, 5. no guns, gunners until obedient sit and steady which starts at a few months old.

As far as force fetch--dramatically differnt-NO chamber of horrors, no ear pinch-no grind it out sessions, Hold, fetch off the ground are transparent and mixed in outdoor field sessions. Puppies are conditioned to collar pressure and to lead jerks but in informal sessions while doing lots of other things. The systematic session of using force for CC and fetch is quite different and the pup hardly knows he is learning it..

I follow a Lardy sequence afterwards with such a pup starting with Pilework which skills were learned at 4-5 months in terms of go, stop, come, remote send, front finish-everything except the force back. 

Furthermore, I think that using a Hillman puppy philosophy you will use a lot less force than a typical Carr based program and your first recourse is NOT "force" as we see so often suggested here. 

So yes, it can transition seamlessly into many other programs. But, it's important to understand that it is quite different than what most people have historically recommended as in Puppy sections of Smartworks, Lardy, FowlDawg and Mertens. The big thing is you don't have to work on un-doing so many bad habits at the line and thus you use less force there working on steadiness. Trust me --I know about that!!!


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks for all of the insight on this guys.

Y'all are really helping this rookie out. Stay tuned...I'm gonna wear y'all out with questions.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks Dennis, I never knew Carr recommended anything on puppy raising. I've never seen your list before, although it's similar to what I've seen recommended by others. What I've done is an adaption of what Ferucci did. Different from both.



> For those of you that have it, I explained in some depth the differences in the May-June 2009 issue of Retrievers ONLINE. In a nutshell, the conventional approach involves
> 1. Much environmental experience, 2. fun obedience but not a lot of high standard heel, here and sit until later, 3. Not steady until part way into Basics, 4. white bumpers-teach to use eyes, 5. lots of marks with gunners, guns, asap and let them go quickly.


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> When I said a Carr based puppy program, I meant the conventional approach used by those who use a Carr based program. That approach was also one that Rex endorsed and his clients followed for the most part in the past.
> 
> For those of you that have it, I explained in some depth the differences in the May-June 2009 issue of Retrievers ONLINE. In a nutshell, the conventional approach involves
> 1. Much environmental experience, 2. fun obedience but not a lot of high standard heel, here and sit until later, 3. Not steady until part way into Basics, 4. white bumpers-teach to use eyes, 5. lots of marks with gunners, guns, asap and let them go quickly.
> ...


Thanks Dennis.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> When
> 
> Hillman is very different except for #1 above. 2. Lots of obedience-sit is huge, 3. Steady very young, 4. orange bumpers -emphasize nose, *5. no guns, gunners until obedient sit and steady which starts at a few months old.*


Actually, if the seminar I attended was any indication, Bill's pups see lots of gunner thrown marks via "wishbone" style marks never involving a request to sit or any kind of steadiness.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Thanks Dennis, I never knew Carr recommended anything on puppy raising. I've never seen your list before, although it's similar to what I've seen recommended by others. What I've done is an adaption of what* Ferucci* did. Different from both.


Howard, care to elaborate?

BB


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Charles C. said:


> Actually, if the seminar I attended was any indication, Bill's pups see lots of gunner thrown marks via "wishbone" style marks never involving a request to sit or any kind of steadiness.


Can you explain this for me? I don't understand "wishbone" marks.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Charles C. said:


> Actually, if the seminar I attended was any indication, Bill's pups see lots of gunner thrown marks via "wishbone" style marks never involving a request to sit or any kind of steadiness.


Charles

Yes I know that Hillman is a big fan of the "Y" marking drill or wishbone style. However, in his DVD when he throws exciting breaker birds it is always with a signal like hey-hey. There his intro to "remote" gunners requires steadiness and doesn't occur until vary late in the pup's development. If you are saying he allows a puppy to break on a remote gunner thrown mark after all the earlier steadiness work, I am very surprised. Regardless, I wouldn't do it personally. Perhaps the clue is that you said no request to sit BUT I think gunners can be so exciting that I wouldn't ever want to have them go over the top in excitement just to do a Y drill. I am continually battling control on marks on my hi-power dogs.


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

The point could be missed here in the video where he repeatedly brings up during the early parts of the training especially in the "Traffic Cop" that nothing takes place until he says it does. It is built through repetition and throwing bumpers then OB then come back to the mark and this is repeated. Even when a duck is introduced. Thrown mark, sent, bird retrieved, bird thrown back, then back to OB, (duck still out there). Then dog is allowed to get the mark when sent. After OB is up to his standard. Point being, you don't go until I send you. Any action done is at my direction. That is what I think is being built up to with each "day" in the video. I can see it the pup I have now. I could be wrong but it seems the real concept is not the sit but the dog not taking action until it is told to do so whether retrieve the mark, sit heel,or here.
I am all ears on this one!!!

If I remember from training a while back I believe Mary said the wishbone or Y drill helps teach depth perception on the marks. I could be wrong it's been a few years.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Mike Smith said:


> The point could be missed here in the video where he repeatedly brings up during the early parts of the training especially in the "Traffic Cop" that nothing takes place until he says it does. It is built through repetition and throwing bumpers then OB then come back to the mark and this is repeated. Even when a duck is introduced. Thrown mark, sent, bird retrieved, bird thrown back, then back to OB, (duck still out there). Then dog is allowed to get the mark when sent. After OB is up to his standard. Point being, you don't go until I send you. Any action done is at my direction. That is what I think is being built up to with each "day" in the video. I can see it the pup I have now. I could be wrong but it seems the real concept is not the sit but the dog not taking action until it is told to do so whether retrieve the mark, sit heel,or here.
> I am all ears on this one!!!


I agree with you this idea of doing what I say when I say and not do what you want is a key to Bills puppy work. However, it behooves us to make the teachings as simple and straight forwards as possible while progressing the pup. When you start to introduce guns and gunners and birds you introduce a lot of additional stimuli and parameters in the equation for the pup to figure out. Is it reasonable for a pup to distinguish that one time I break on the throw and another time I don't when the only diff is a quiet sit? I think we're starting to push the envelope here. More importantly why do we need a dog to break on a Y drill? I'd actually prefer a lot of focus and concentration.

I am throwing out my thoughts here without having talked to Bill about this detail. Perhaps he can change my mind as I am always open to new ideas. But, based on the dogs I have it would be a challenge and I've had some real intelligent dogs!!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

2tall said:


> Can you explain this for me? I don't understand "wishbone" marks.


I have assumed that wishbone and Y marks are the same. That is one angle back and one angle in on one side and another square on the opposite side (or minor variations thereof). Creates a Y or a Wishbone configuration.

Sorry no diagram handy

PS See error in this *ASS -U- ME* below!!! Post 29


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Howard, care to elaborate?
> 
> BB


 
I hope Howard will respond. Ferruci, Woodland and McFall were all very savvy Alaskan trainers with notable success. They did a lot of things differently than at least many Easterners or Mid-Westerners or even West Coasters or the Texans!! They had a lot of marking and blind drills based on repetiton and building. There is some documentation of their techniques but not much compared to other programs. 

The characteristic that I have noted with the above three is tremendous work effort. They really invested time in their dogs. Most of my knowledge is of their All-Age work so if Howard can elaborate on puppy development--great!! 

BTW, another person who trains puppies differently is Jack Vollstad from California- so if anybody has details there -let us know. OK stop lurking Melanie!!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Clarification on Hillman puppy advancement.

I just spoke with Bill and better understand one of the things that he does with 4-5 month old puppies and even very advanced dogs.

With a partner the two of you go into the field and split up, each with a bumper. When the pup(dog) is distant from one person, he gets the dog coming towards him and then throws a bumper. The dog is not sitting and the gunner is not standing and shooting like in a conventional marking scene. However, this gets a pup to focus and run directly to a spot (mark)at a distance.

The key is to have the dog looking at the other person first and even headed that way. Bill calls this wishbone marks but in my eyes it didn't have anything to do with a wishbone pattern that looks like a Y. I suggested it is really a V or even a I drill. Shortest line between two points.

So to clarify. The dog is not breaking a sit-he is just wandering around. There are no Y marks-just a single for focus. It's like when you go for a walk and the pup is distant and you throw a mark for him except you have a helper! The helper is not viewed as a formal gunner in this way.

Bill even does this with advanced dogs and he also does a thing where the gunner will rethrow while pup enroute several times in order to maintain focus.

So there you have it--we don't disgaree after all with technique. It's just something that I haven't done with another person.

Gotta go train pup!!


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Clarification on Hillman puppy advancement.
> 
> I just spoke with Bill and better understand one of the things that he does with 4-5 month old puppies and even very advanced dogs.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was referencing. I've been traveling, but wanted to clarify that the y drill and wishbone marks are 2 really different things. I believe the "wishbone" name comes from the fact that the 2 parties get progressively farther from one another. It really seems to develop marking without having to battle over line manners.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Thank you Dennis and Charles. THat makes a whole lot more sense to me now, and I can definitely see the benefit! Thanks.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

2tall said:


> Thank you Dennis and Charles. THat makes a whole lot more sense to me now, and I can definitely see the benefit! Thanks.



It's so simple, too. You wave a bumper and "hey, hey" the dog, and when it's obvious they're coming at you, you (or your helper) throw the mark.


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## my2ylws (Aug 12, 2010)

I have been reading this thread with great interest as I am now training my 
2nd pup (Hawkeye's First Lady) using Bill's method and puppy training video. Getting back to the original thread topic, where does one go after Bill's puppy and fetch video? My thought is that who would be better qualified to answer the question on where to go after his puppy and new fetch video than Bill himself? So on that note, I have spoken with Bill and will be meeting with him very soon as he has agreed to share his thoughts and will post what I have learned from Bill if it is alright with Bill and the forum.

Have a safe and happy 4th of July!

John & Deb Lenon
Mama's Labs
Wildwood, MO


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

This drill is different from the one we were doing. It must have a different name as it only involved one thrower. Like I said, it's been awhile back.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I agree with you this idea of doing what I say when I say and not do what you want is a key to Bills puppy work. However, it behooves us to make the teachings as simple and straight forwards as possible while progressing the pup. When you start to introduce guns and gunners and birds you introduce a lot of additional stimuli and parameters in the equation for the pup to figure out. Is it reasonable for a pup to distinguish that one time I break on the throw and another time I don't when the only diff is a quiet sit? I think we're starting to push the envelope here. More importantly why do we need a dog to break on a Y drill? I'd actually prefer a lot of focus and concentration.
> 
> I am throwing out my thoughts here without having talked to Bill about this detail. Perhaps he can change my mind as I am always open to new ideas. But, based on the dogs I have it would be a challenge and I've had some real intelligent dogs!!


At what stage or age are we going to demand (might be too strong a word) some form of control as we introduce all these stimuli? Certainly introducing gunners, guns and etc. can cause mixed reactions in different pups. What would concern me if you allow some pups no control on certain marks you would have a tough time like you say reeling them in and it becomes a battle. One that I don't want! Training a 10 week old pup to retrieve is certainly going to be different training a 4 months old pup? Hopefully I have said that correctly-but what I am after is at what age or stage of dog's development do we start to demand some control at marking etc?


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

my2ylws said:


> I have been reading this thread with great interest as I am now training my
> 2nd pup (Hawkeye's First Lady) using Bill's method and puppy training video. Getting back to the original thread topic, where does one go after Bill's puppy and fetch video? My thought is that who would be better qualified to answer the question on where to go after his puppy and new fetch video than Bill himself? So on that note, I have spoken with Bill and will be meeting with him very soon as he has agreed to share his thoughts and will post what I have learned from Bill if it is alright with Bill and the forum.
> 
> Have a safe and happy 4th of July!
> ...


I'm interested in this. Please post up what he says after your discussion. I would really like to hear/read his side of this!


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## my2ylws (Aug 12, 2010)

We will be meeting with Bill this Tuesday and will post his thoughts on this topic thread. Stay tuned!


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2011)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> BTW, another person who trains puppies differently is Jack Vollstad from California- so if anybody has details there -let us know. OK stop lurking Melanie!!


Actually, the term I prefer is stalking. ;-):razz:

I really wish I could add some insight into Jack's puppy training but he's either 7 hours north of me in Oregon or 9 hours south of me on the CA/AZ border so I rarely see him.

I was supposed to attend a puppy seminar of his when the San Diego club held it and couldn't make it at the last minute which was such a disappointment. I'm anxiously awaiting the next one whenever that may be. I'll try and do some digging and if I can get any info on his methods, I'll be happy to post the info. 

Has anyone who has used the Hillman technique not been able to resist mixing in some of the more traditional puppy training we are used to, i.e., gunners in the field throwing white bumpers? I have not put a pup through Hillman's program yet (haven't had a youngin' lately) and I'll have to admit, it might be tough for me to exclude the field marking sessions from what a pup is exposed to. I know, change is hard.  Did it feel weird for you Dennis when you put your first pup through it?

For those of you not familiar with Bill's DVD, you need to watch it. It can not be explained on a forum. Some have done a real good job of trying in this thread, but you just can't understand it until you see it and then it may take you a while to appreciate it. It's different.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> Has anyone who has used the Hillman technique not been able to resist mixing in some of the more traditional puppy training we are used to, i.e., gunners in the field throwing white bumpers? I have not put a pup through Hillman's program yet (haven't had a youngin' lately) and I'll have to admit, it might be tough for me to exclude the field marking sessions from what a pup is exposed to. I know, change is hard.  *Did it feel weird for you Dennis when you put your first pup through it?*


Absolutely not. I never enjoyed training a pup more. Lots and lots of field sessions-I did more days than Bill but probably shorter sessions. He was learning so many "future skills" in a smooth and subtle way. I kinda know now what things are important in the future and he was learning them without leaning any bad habits. I was not concerned with distance whatsoever because I know how easy it is so stetch them out later. I'm doing my seconf pup right now this way and it is unfolding nicely. Some things he's better some not but I just gradually seek progress and watch him get better and better. New pup is poorer at final few feet of delivery( a bit of tag!) and less prone to sit calmly and hold but his sit is even faster and his focus great on marks in all kinds of cover and water. At 5 months he'll get his gunners and birds.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Melanie, your question is interesting. Note from Dennis's reply, that for a person with the experience and knowledge to really appreciate the difference in this pup program, it was not difficult to stay off the traditional stuff. It was and still is a struggle for me as a novice to avoid the temptation. I can see how it works, and I see my pup make progress. Then I just can't help but occasionally try a mark with a gun in the field. No good ever comes of it. I have to stick to the plan, and wait until we have completed FF and CC before we move on to the next program.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Absolutely not. I never enjoyed training a pup more. Lots and lots of field sessions-I did more days than Bill but probably shorter sessions. He was learning so many "future skills" in a smooth and subtle way. I kinda know now what things are important in the future and he was learning them without leaning any bad habits. I was not concerned with distance whatsoever because I know how easy it is so stetch them out later. I'm doing my seconf pup right now this way and it is unfolding nicely. Some things he's better some not but I just gradually seek progress and watch him get better and better. New pup is poorer at final few feet of delivery( a bit of tag!) and less prone to sit calmly and hold but his sit is even faster and his focus great on marks in all kinds of cover and water. At 5 months he'll get his gunners and birds.


Dennis, did you also do the mini FF intro Bill does with your pup? Ive seen a few folks here say they skipped it. Also, do you follow his FF cd too? I haven't seen that one yet so I don't know if its traditional or different too.

I purchased your Training Retrievers Alone and have watched the first CD and it is outstanding. I can't tell you how excited and hopeful it is to have guidelines and material to follow to show me how I can successfully train alone. I am new to this and my pup is w/ a pro trainer in transition for a few more months and I CAN'T WAIT to get him back and start working with him with your material.

Jeff


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Cowtown said:


> Dennis, did you also do the mini FF intro Bill does with your pup? Ive seen a few folks here say they skipped it. Also, do you follow his FF cd too? I haven't seen that one yet so I don't know if its traditional or different too.
> 
> I purchased your Training Retrievers Alone and have watched the first CD and it is outstanding. I can't tell you how excited and hopeful it is to have guidelines and material to follow to show me how I can successfully train alone. I am new to this and my pup is w/ a pro trainer in transition for a few more months and I CAN'T WAIT to get him back and start working with him with your material.
> 
> Jeff


 
Yes I do the mini FF and CC and as it turned out I didn't have to do much more!!! When a dog sits and comes quickly and lunges for the bumper on command with and without application of the e-collar and knows how to respond under pressure, there is nothing mini about it. 

Yes, I would follow the new Hillman Fetch command DVD. It is even a bit easier on the dog than the Puppy DVD examples. It is not traditonal at all and is remarkably easy on the dog and yet effective. No grind it out chamber of horrors. I am writing a detailed review of it and my current thoughts on FF in the summer issue of Retrievers ONLINE because I think it the topic is so important. 

I may be wrong but I think almost anyone could use this method but a lot of people sure have trouble with the "traditional" method. More importantly, too many dogs are subjected to way too much mis-guided pressure while being force fetched.

Thanks for your comment on the TRA DVD. The 2nd disk will give you lots of examples of practical applications in the field and how to reasonably simulate the "real" thing.


Cheers


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Either way, Bill's approach to steadiness is light years better than the old horse jockey approach.


Charles could you explain further the old horse jockey approach. 

Negative reinforcement - I understand best in equine training. Aversives/punishment also.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Yes I do the mini FF and CC and as it turned out I didn't have to do much more!!! When a dog sits and comes quickly and lunges for the bumper on command with and without application of the e-collar and knows how to respond under pressure, there is nothing mini about it.
> 
> Yes, I would follow the new Hillman Fetch command DVD. It is even a bit easier on the dog than the Puppy DVD examples. It is not traditonal at all and is remarkably easy on the dog and yet effective. No grind it out chamber of horrors. I am writing a detailed review of it and my current thoughts on FF in the summer issue of Retrievers ONLINE because I think it the topic is so important.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the info Dennis. I'm going to buy his DVD, so far it sounds very similar to the way I train. Does he have anything on YouTube?

Happy 4th!


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## Shiner (Jan 24, 2011)

I've learned so much from reading this thread... looking forward to hearing about the meeting with Hillman.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Aussie said:


> Charles could you explain further the old horse jockey approach.
> 
> Negative reinforcement - I understand best in equine training. Aversives/punishment also.


The horse jockey approach is just straddling the pup from behind and restraining them with their collar and rump or around their chest with your hands. Inevitably, the dog struggles.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> The horse jockey approach is just straddling the pup from behind and restraining them with their collar and rump or around their chest with your hands. Inevitably, the dog struggles.



The shame of IT all. By your description I have no idea how to compare the two species, horse/dog - training.

Say on a horse, we generally restrain with a bridle/bit. (We will forget our back and legs for the moment and position of hands etc). We apply pressure......not for punishing (by cruel wrenching more tap tap tap) any movement, but by negative reinforcement - Compliance results in release of aversive which is physically and mentally a relief.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

I was fortunate to hear about the Bill Hillman DVD shortly after bringing home my last pup and was able to put it into practice from about age 3 months on. Like Dennis said earlier, there was nothing weird about it and in fact it was a lot of fun and produced very good results...dog passed 3 MH tests before 2 years of age. We went from Bill's method into a combination of EG's Smart Works and Mike Lardy's with no conflict. 

I think Bill is advancing the art of dog training by stressing the benefits of early pre- training much as R.A.W. did when he proved that we could start training our retrievers before they turned a year old. Give it time and someone will be able to show us how to train them in the womb!


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2011)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Absolutely not. I never enjoyed training a pup more. Lots and lots of field sessions-I did more days than Bill but probably shorter sessions. He was learning so many "future skills" in a smooth and subtle way. I kinda know now what things are important in the future and he was learning them without leaning any bad habits. I was not concerned with distance whatsoever because I know how easy it is so stetch them out later. I'm doing my seconf pup right now this way and it is unfolding nicely. Some things he's better some not but I just gradually seek progress and watch him get better and better. New pup is poorer at final few feet of delivery( a bit of tag!) and less prone to sit calmly and hold but his sit is even faster and his focus great on marks in all kinds of cover and water. At 5 months he'll get his gunners and birds.


Thanks, makes perfect sense. I appreciate the feedback and now should be able to resist the temptation(s). ;-)


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## Jay Patton (Feb 12, 2008)

I wish this video would have been out a year earlier. I had a really nice puppy that I went through Hillmann's puppy video with, and he was doing great until I tried to force fetch him. I ended up getting rid of him, because I took so much of his drive/sprit trying to get him through force fetch that he lost his excitement to retrieve. I wasn't able to ever get his drive back.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jay Patton said:


> I wish this video would have been out a year earlier. I had a really nice puppy that I went through Hillmann's puppy video with, and* he was doing great until I tried to force fetch him. I ended up getting rid of him, because I took so much of his drive/sprit trying to get him through force fetch that he lost his excitement to retrieve*. I wasn't able to ever get his drive back.


that is so sad to hear Jay.
However I seriously doubt the having or not having any video you may read about here would have made a difference in this case. While I and others type force fetch advice here all the time I have always said and maintain. This is not a task I could learn from any vid or at any keyboard. I needed a live human being at my shoulder, after I had stood at their shoulder and observed, a lot. Maybe it is just how I learn stuff and we all are different. And all dogs are different. And maybe your dog would have been washed during force by all the grizzled veterans as well. Some dogs just don't make it through. So, instead of wishing you had had a video, for that last dog. I feel your wish is misplaced. You should wish you had had a Mentor for YOU and that last dog.
.


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## bbmclain (May 23, 2011)

I too am very interested in the best transition program after Hillman. As of now, I am heavily leaning towards Smartworks.


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## Shiner (Jan 24, 2011)

Jay Patton said:


> I wish this video would have been out a year earlier. I had a really nice puppy that I went through Hillmann's puppy video with, and he was doing great until I tried to force fetch him. I ended up getting rid of him, because I took so much of his drive/sprit trying to get him through force fetch that he lost his excitement to retrieve. I wasn't able to ever get his drive back.


this scares being a first-timer.... I'm working on FF now and the last thing I want is to burn the pup.


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## Flying Dutchman (May 1, 2009)

Shiner,

The key, I think, is to read the pup. Don't set any kind of time frame on the process and look for minor steps in improvement. Always end with success (no matter how tiny or how far backwards you feel like you have to go to get something you can call success) and always celebrate that success like it's the biggest thing in the world. I don't think you'll take the dog's spirit unless you aren't paying attention. Now, to be fair to the dog, pick a standard before you start and don't "end" the process until you have arrived there, but don't be in a hurry and don't lower your standard. Just only get out of the dog in any one session what you can get out of the dog in that session. If he's not ready to go on, no one says he should be!

The best summary of what I'm trying to get at is exactly what Ken Bora said. Get a mentor who's been through it. Someone who will watch you do it and help you, then let them advise you of how far to go, how much to expect, when you're being too rough, too soft, or fooled by your dog. You'll get there!


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## jkj1212 (Jun 22, 2011)

I have the Hillmann puppy video and the force fetch video as well. I had been wondering what to do next, and hoping there is subsequent video on the way. 

I saw Bill Hillmann at one of his seminars in MN, and asked him the same question, "Where do we go after your puppy DVD?" He said, without hesitation, that he has known Mike Lardy since he first started as a professional dog trainer, and said of Mike, "he is the best of the best" so get his video. Furthermore, he said that if you are serious about doing any of your own dog training, don't try to do it without Dennis Voigt's Training Alone video. Bill said that these are the people with the credentials. 

Don't just take carte blanche what is written here or anywhere else. Check the record, and see who is competing and winning.

Also, as a comment to Shiner. There is NO burning on the Force Fetch video. I have seen this video and am so impressed by the dog's attitude and that there were no pliers, bottle caps, toe wrenching, or others means of the type of torture that I have watched a hundred times before. Not only that but a toddler could do it. 

I agree totally with Dennis Voigt's comment that the Bill Hillmann method is a huge breakthrough.

If we subscribe to the notion that we _have_ to do something because that is the way it _has been_ done in the past, well I am glad we are not treating cancer the way it was done in the 70's. 
I am glad there are people out there looking for the next best way to do things. 

As for Jay Patton's story about his dog after the force fetch, I have had the exact same experience and I DID have a mentor and the mentor made it worse. This was a puppy that I had raised from seven weeks and I watched it get ruined before my very eyes. I was so disgusted, it took me weeks to get over it. This was a little golden female that I had with a "professional trainer" that washed her out after a week in the force fetch chamber. It was a little room in the back of the kennel, with a table. The room happened to also be where they bathed the dogs. Needless to say, she hated having a bath for the rest of her life as well. Prior to her "force fetch experience" she was a happy little dog that wanted to do nothing more than whatever you wanted to do. Afterwords, she lived out her life as my house pet. Not only that, but I paid for this service with actual money.


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## Art Stoner (Nov 18, 2007)

I do not normally post to threads like this but I would encourage anyone who is going to force fetch to view Mike Lardy's latest video. He force fetches a dog without any vocalization. The idea is apply only enough force to get the response you need. It does not have to be brutal or excessive. He shows you how to do it. He does not employ a table and does not believe the dog has to be traumatized by the experience.

As one person who I respect told me it is good to spend enough time with hold to have that down really well and FF will go much easier almost certainly.


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## bbmclain (May 23, 2011)

my2ylws said:


> We will be meeting with Bill this Tuesday and will post his thoughts on this topic thread. Stay tuned!


Any updates?!?!??! Thanks.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

jkj1212 said:


> ...As for Jay Patton's story about his dog after the force fetch, I have had the exact same experience and I DID have a mentor and the mentor made it worse. This was a puppy that I had raised from seven weeks and I watched it get ruined before my very eyes. I was so disgusted, it took me weeks to get over it. This was a little golden female that I had with a "professional trainer" that washed her out after a week in the force fetch chamber. It was a little room in the back of the kennel, with a table. The room happened to also be where they bathed the dogs. Needless to say, she hated having a bath for the rest of her life as well. Prior to her "force fetch experience" she was a happy little dog that wanted to do nothing more than whatever you wanted to do. Afterwords, she lived out her life as my house pet. Not only that, but I paid for this service with actual money.


Gosh what a terrible story.
I am so very sorry, and thank you for making a valid and much needed insertion here. Just because the new person has a mentor does not automatically imply it is a good mentor. Like when a new person hires a professional Black top driveway sealer company to re-do the drive way.
And all they are is a scam. And you all have read similar stories. And I apologize to all RTF folk that are quality professional driveway sealers. It is just an example. I was very very lucky to have haphazardly stumbled upon my first teachers. I purchased my first Chessie from them. The first thing they advised me to do was to join my local retriever club, and that I did. And to watch the best dogs, the dogs I liked the work of. And to approach the folk who had those dogs and offer to stand in the mud and throw birds 
for them, and that I did.

Point is, they encouraged me to see as many different trainers as I was able. Yet I still maintained my rapport with them. Still went and learned all I could from them. Even your terrible mentor, JKJ gave you life long lessons. Negative yes, but I am sure you learned what not to do. The biggest, most bestest thing the fresh meat can do is join a retriever club and stand in the mud and throw birds and watch and watch and watch. And when you decide, in your mind what dogs you 
consistently like the best, event after event. Go to that handler and say hey, what's up? 
.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Point is, they encouraged me to see as many different trainers as I was able. Yet I still maintained my rapport with them. Still went and learned all I could from them. Even your terrible mentor, JKJ gave you life long lessons. Negative yes, but I am sure you learned what not to do. The biggest, most bestest thing the fresh meat can do is join a retriever club and stand in the mud and throw birds and watch and watch and watch. *And when you decide, in your mind what dogs you consistently like the best, event after event. Go to that handler and say hey, what's up?*
> .


Very good advice, Ken!

Choosing a dog trainer or mentor is like choosing a new car. There are many different styles available. Do your research and then take it for a test drive. Choose the one that matches your style and expectations.

As you can see from the hundreds of opinions on various training topics on RTF, there are many ways to go about training your dog. Do your homework first and then choose the style that you particularly like and matches the results you are expecting. Stick with it and TEACH.....TEACH......TEACH.


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## my2ylws (Aug 12, 2010)

As promised I was able to meet with Bill and get his thoughts on this thread. First of all Bill feels that almost any program would be compatible with his methods. When I tried to pin him down to a more specific recommendation he said that Mike Lardy was the person with whom he was most familiar with and respected the most. He indicated that there were probably many good DVD's available and when I asked him his thoughts on Evan Graham's program, he said that he was not familiar with it. 

In a general sense, this has certainly been one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time, and there are certainly alot of opinions out there. As far as I am concerned, I have abandoned the "old school" approaches and ways of thinking about dog training and am learning as much as I can about Bill's style of training as it is our goal to make a better way of life for these wonderful companions.


John & Deb Lenon
Mama's Labs
Wildwood, MO


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## NWitters (Jun 29, 2009)

I am a fan of Dan Hosford's training and his videos etc... Working Man's Retriever is his tag line I believe.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Yes, good information, and I am glad to find out that there is MORE information in Dennis Voigt's '*Training Retrievers Alone*' guide than on the DVD. I just pulled my back out since I train my own guys and primarily train alone. GOOD STUFF in there!

Also, Bill Hillmann's training philosophies and techniques have helped tremendously in getting my high rolling, sometimes vocal, males through a few field trials. I can now actually run the wild boys in a few HRC hunt tests too!! Something that would have never happened without his program.....


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## Joe Eversman (8 mo ago)

10 years since this thread is the Hillman/Lardy combo still a top choice? 
when we trained our first pup 10 years ago we joined the local HRC club for some mentoring as well as getting Lardy’s articles. We suimented with some YouTube videos and some of Evan’s videos were helpful. We were happy with what we achieved.
A decade later we live in a digital world and I see a few online programs out there. Cornerstone Gundog Academy has my attention but I am leaning towards using what this thread suggests: Hillman/Lardy. This thread was partly about the advancements Hillman had made. A decade later the material on their website looks pretty much the same. Are there new and better techniques and programs?
Thanks,
Joe


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## Gregg0211 (Feb 11, 2015)

Todd Caswell said:


> Don't over look Stawski's "Fowldawg" series. Very affordable and easy to follow.


Other than the monotone of the dvd, the videos are very good and easy to follow. Drink a power drink or coffee before though.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Goodness, another one from the past.

There are names in there of valued members who no longer post and one who is no longer with us, so that's a bit sobering. I didn't realise Evan hadn't posted since 2019, I seem to recall he wanted to concentrate on religious work; hope he's OK.

Cornerstone do a lot of initial puppy work with clicker so that's moved a long way from what might be called the "established" style. Not sure about the reinforcement afterwards As per the video below .... nice to see one of Barton's dogs in the frame.






Strawski Smawski, not my favourite series, but has the benefit of not costing a lot. I didn't find his monotone too off putting, but man the nagging ......


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## Joe Eversman (8 mo ago)

Gregg0211 said:


> Other than the monotone of the dvd, the videos are very good and easy to follow. Drink a power drink or coffee before though.


I will take a look.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

I wouldn't use hillman at all.


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## Dave_Verbyla (Dec 10, 2018)

Daren Galloway said:


> I wouldn't use hillman at all.


Can you be more specific? What do you find wrong with Hillman's methods? Examples? Thanks.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Dave_Verbyla said:


> Can you be more specific? What do you find wrong with Hillman's methods? Examples? Thanks.


He puts more emphasis on sit than go. I'm out on that. Also look at his last dog and see what you think if he practices what he preaches.


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## Joe Eversman (8 mo ago)

If you were a novice willing to put in a lot of research and time. A novice who wants to do the training. Price isn’t the major concern. What program would you suggest? Mostly I want a really nice hunting dog but find the challenge of hunt tests a motivating factor to keep me focused on training everyday not “tomorrow”.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Joe Eversman said:


> Mostly I want a really nice hunting dog


That's the gateway drug.


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## Joe Eversman (8 mo ago)

drunkenpoacher said:


> That's the gateway drug.


Haha. Hopefully I can find a balance.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

The biggest thing with training... you must build the foundation one brick at a time. There are no short cuts. If you fail to put in the cornerstone and build from there in a methodical way, the building WILL fall and you will have to go back and rebuild (not necessarily a bad thing, except who wants to waste their time fixing problems that could have been prevented?)..... All the programs lay out the steps. But that is really all they are - steps. It is up to the person using these programs to implement them into teaching/training the particular pup/dog at their side..... Knowing when, how, and what kind of pressure and praise to use, when to move forward and when to slow down are most easily learned through personal instruction, IMHO. 

So -IMO --- if you want to learn how to train your own dog in an efficient and effective manner, buy one of the major programs and then fork out the money to get one on one instruction from someone who has been around the block a time or two, or 100....


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Daren Galloway said:


> He puts more emphasis on sit than go. I'm out on that. Also look at his last dog and see what you think if he practices what he preaches.


This dog?
Yeah, who would want a dog like this?




Registration #'s:​  AKC #: SS05250203Registered Name:​ Watermarks ShadowCall Name:​ ShadowSire:​ FC AFC Hawkeye's Candlewood ShadowDOB:​ 04/10/2018Dam:​ Watermark's Rising StarrBreed:​ Labrador RetrieverCurrent Owner(s):​ William Hillmann Mary TatumSex:​ MBreeder:​ Mary TatumColor:​ Black
 





Date​Event Name​Stakes Entered​Results​04/29/2022Sooner Retriever Club 2022 Spring Field TrialOpen All-Age(Fri) 10/01/2021West Nebraska Retriever Club 2021 Fall TrialOwner/Handler Amateur All-Age(Sat) 09/17/2021Hennepin County Amateur Retriever Club 2021 Fall Field TrialAmateur All-Age(Sat) 06/03/2021West Central Minnesota Retriever Club 2021 Spring Field TrialOpen All-Age(Thu) [Scratch]Scratch05/21/2021Minnesota Field Trial Association 2021 Spring Field TrialOpen All-Age(Fri) 05/14/2021Hennepin County Amateur Retriever Club 2021 Spring Field TrialOpen All-Age(Fri) 05/07/2021Madison Retriever Club 2021 Spring Field Trial ** No Spring Derby **Open All-Age(Fri) 03/19/2021Red River Retriever Club of Texas 2021 Spring Trial _NEW DATE_Qualifying(Fri) [1st]1st01/15/2021Brazosport Retriever Club 2021 Winter D/QQualifying(Fri) 01/15/2021Colorado River Labrador Retriever Club of Texas 2021 Winter DQQualifying(Sat) [Scratch]Scratch03/27/2020Four States Retriever Club of Texarkana 2020 Spring Double D/Q _CANCELLED_ (club will be handling refunds)Derby(Fri) [Event Cancelled]Event Cancelled03/27/2020Piney Woods Retriever Club 2020 Spring Field Trial *CANCELLED* (EE will handle refunds)Derby(Fri) [Event Cancelled]Event Cancelled03/13/2020Black Warrior Retriever Club 2020 Spring Field Trial Derby(Fri) [Scratch]Scratch03/06/2020Southern California Retriever Club 2020 Spring Field TrialQualifying(Fri) [Scratch]
Derby(Sat) [Scratch]Scratch / Scratch02/28/2020San Diego Retriever and Field Trial Club 2020 Spring TrialDerby(Fri) [1st]
Qualifying(Sat)1st02/21/2020Sacramento Valley Retriever Club 2020 February Field TrialDerby(Sat) [Scratch]Scratch01/31/2020North Florida Amateur Retriever Club 2020 Derby/Qualifying #1Derby(Sat) [Scratch]Scratch01/31/2020North Florida Amateur Retriever Club 2020 Derby/Qualifying #2Derby(Fri) [Scratch]Scratch01/25/2020South Louisiana Retriever Club Spring Derby/QualifyingDerby(Sun) 01/10/2020Bluebonnet Retriever Club 2020 Winter Double DQ # 1Derby(Sat) [Scratch]Scratch01/10/2020Bluebonnet Retriever Club 2020 Winter Double DQ # 2Derby(Fri) [Jam]Jam01/04/2020Treasure Coast Retriever Club TCRC Field Trial 2020Derby(Sat) [2nd]2nd12/10/2019The Labrador Retriever Club 2019 Gulf Coast Double Derby/Qualifying +++ Please Note - Trial Runs Tuesday through Thursday +++ *Cardiac Clinic*Derby(Tue) [1st]1st12/10/2019The Labrador Retriever Club 2019 Gulf Coast Double Derby/Qualifying +++ Please Note - Trial Runs Tuesday through Thursday +++ *Cardiac Clinic*Derby(Wed) [Res. Jam]Res. Jam12/06/2019Cape Fear Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) [1st]1st12/06/2019Rockwall Retriever Club Fall 2019 Derby/QualifyingDerby(Fri) [Scratch]Scratch11/17/2019Cape Fear Retriever Club 2019 Derby/Qualifying - DOUBLE D/Q WITH LUMBER RIVERDerby(Sun) [3rd]3rd11/16/2019Lumber River Retriever Club Fall 2019 Derby and Qualifier (double with Cape Fear)Derby(Sat) [Jam]Jam11/01/2019Piney Woods Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) [Scratch]Scratch11/01/2019Shreveport-Bossier Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) 10/31/2019Green River Retriever Club of Kentucky 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Thu) [2nd]2nd10/25/2019Northwest Missouri Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Sat) [2nd]2nd10/25/2019Tulsa Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) 10/18/2019Alamo Retriever Club 2019 Fall Double Derby/QualDerby(Fri) [1st]
Derby(Sat) [3rd]1st / 3rd10/11/2019Mississippi Valley Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Sat) [3rd]3rd10/07/2019National Retriever Derby Club Championship 2019Derby(Mon) [Finalist]Finalist10/04/2019Bluegrass Retriever Club 2019 fall field trialDerby(Fri) [2nd]2nd10/04/2019Topeka Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Sat) [3rd]3rd09/27/2019Missouri River Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) [2nd]2nd09/20/2019River King Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) [1st]1st09/13/2019Wisconsin Amateur Field Trial Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) [3rd]3rd09/06/2019Minnesota Field Trial Association 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) [Jam]Jam08/30/2019Duluth Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field Trial #2Derby(Sat) [3rd]3rd08/23/2019North Dakota Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) 08/09/2019Manitowoc County Kennel Club 2019 Retreiver Field TrialDerby(Fri) [Jam]Jam08/02/2019Madison Retriever Club 2019 Fall Field TrialDerby(Fri) 07/26/2019Vikingland Retriever Club 2019 Summer Field TrialDerby(Sat) 07/19/2019Colorado Women's Retriever Club 2019 Field TrialDerby(Sat) [1st]1st07/19/2019West Central Minnesota Retriever Club 2019 Summer Field TrialDerby(Sat) [Scratch]Scratch07/12/2019Professional Retriever Trainers Association Summer 2019 Western Zone TrialDerby(Sat) [3rd]3rd07/05/2019Colorado Women's Retriever Club Derby/QualDerby(Sat) 07/05/2019Pikes Peak Retriever Club Derby/QualDerby(Fri) [2nd]2nd06/22/2019West Central Minnesota Retriever Club 2019 Summer Double D/QDerby(Sat) [1st]
Derby(Sun) [1st]1st / 1st06/14/2019Sioux Valley Retriever Club 2019 Spring Double Derby/Qual Derby(Fri) [4th]
Derby(Sat) [Res. Jam]4th / Res. Jam06/08/2019Snake River Retriever Trial Club 2019 DQDerby(Sun) [Scratch]Scratch06/07/2019North Dakota Retriever Club 2019 Spring Field TrialDerby(Fri) [3rd]3rd05/31/2019West Central Minnesota Retriever Club 2019 Spring Field TrialDerby(Sat) [1st]1st05/24/2019Centennial Retriever Club Spring Field Trial 2019Derby(Sat) [1st]1st05/10/2019Green River Retriever Club of Kentucky Field TrialDerby(Fri) [1st]1st05/03/2019Rose Country Retriever Club of East Texas Spring Double D/QDerby(Fri)
Derby(Sat)


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

paul young said:


> This dog?
> Yeah, who would want a dog like this?


What is it you like most about the dog Paul?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't really know that much about the dog, firsthand. It's trial record makes a strong case for being a very good marker. Quite a Derby career. Points per start says it was outstanding, really.
Ran two Q's and won one.
Didn't finish an All Age trial as a 3 year-old, but very few dogs do at age 3..


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

paul young said:


> I don't really know that much about the dog, firsthand.


That makes two of us.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

paul young said:


> I don't really know that much about the dog, firsthand. It's trial record makes a strong case for being a very good marker. Quite a Derby career. Points per start says it was outstanding, really.
> Ran two Q's and won one.
> Didn't finish an All Age trial as a 3 year-old, but very few dogs do at age 3..


He can mark. He can creep too. Lol. 

And now the dog is with Farmer. Which is funny to me, because in my opinion, that is the exact opposite of the kind of training that Hillman preaches and sells dvds. Will be interesting to see his future progress. Talented dog no doubt. 

For the record, I have nothing against anything Hillman says in his videos. I even do some of the drills he does. His training is very fair and fine. 

I’m just saying he doesn’t practice what he preaches if the dog is now with Farmer for AA


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

birddogn_tc said:


> I’m just saying he doesn’t practice what he preaches if the dog is now with Farmer for AA


He should watch this.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Doesn't matter how steady the dog is in training. The first, second, or third time you let a dog creep at a trial the game is up. If you don't pick them up, they have learned where they can get away with it without penalty (or without reward, as it may be). When I ran Smarty at a derby in which Hillman was running Shadow, the dog did creep and have some control issues on the line. Not really much of a surprise given the number of trials he ran. But he marked all but one bird well, that one he had a moderate hunt on the wrong side of the gun station before working it out.


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## Dave_Verbyla (Dec 10, 2018)

birddogn_tc said:


> He can mark. He can creep too. Lol.
> 
> And now the dog is with Farmer. Which is funny to me, because in my opinion, that is the exact opposite of the kind of training that Hillman preaches and sells dvds. Will be interesting to see his future progress. Talented dog no doubt.
> 
> ...


I was surprised that the Q win the handler was a pro, and not Bill Hillman as the handler.
He was the handler for the National Derby when Shadow was a finalist.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

I have this puppy DVD by Jim Van Engen and he just released a new yard work DVD. He has done the foundation training for a number of very successful trial dogs. His puppy DVD is probably one of the less boring of all those I have seen. I haven't seen the yard work DVD.

I am not saying this is the best puppy program but it hadn't been mentioned so I thought I would mention it.

https://www.rightstartkennel.com/dvd.htm


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