# Positive only?



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

+r only trainer faced with a dog self rewarding by playing keep away steps on leash or long line, making it progressively shorter to prevent pup from running away.

Is this really +r only?

I think if you tied me to a post by my neck and let me struggle against a flat collar I would view it as +p?

Thoughts?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

A self rewarding behavior is difficult to deal with by using +r, especially if there is no higher value reward that the trainer can offer. A bitch in heat might be a higher value reward but who keeps one on hand for this training? I think that it is more important to get the desirable behavior quickly which means judicious use of aversives. Use the long line and pinch collar.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> I think if you tied me to a post by my neck and let me struggle against a flat collar I would view it as +p?


How do we know what you get up to in private? There are folks who get their kicks that way ...... or so I have been told.

I try to avoid the semantics of the OC quadrant; whatever I might think is going on, it's up to the dog to determine the reality and the final judgement should (IMO) be based on outcomes. So in the case of stepping on the lead, who cares what quadrant we are in providing it gives the result we intended? Which, IMO it might well, or not.:wink:

Eug


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Stepping on the leash is considered punishment whether it was intended or not. 100% positive trainers rarely punish in the field. It's technically should be called 98% positive.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

It's Positive if it gets a result ! Or is that too 'cryptic'


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> +r only trainer faced with a dog self rewarding by playing keep away steps on leash or long line, making it progressively shorter to prevent pup from running away.
> 
> Is this really +r only?
> 
> ...


The only pure positive thing I see, is that I get my bumper back.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> It's Positive if it gets a result ! Or is that too 'cryptic':grin:


Not for me Robert!

Eug


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Not for me Robert!
> 
> Eug


For the Dog! Eug
Creating a negative ,can be done in the same way.
The recent Five nations results must have you 'cockahoop' and feeling positive ?..


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Bob Barnett said:


> Stepping on the leash is considered punishment whether it was intended or not. 100% positive trainers rarely punish in the field. It's technically should be called 98% positive.


These are the people who go into the lumber store and buy a single 2 x 4 a couple of times a year is what your saying, dog gets whalloped behind closed doors and no one knows the better. That seems pretty positive to me, the dog isnt getting publicly humiliated this way.

I personally dont think you can be 100% positive with dog training. There is no way to get the dog to do what you want everytime the first time without the use of some negative. I think more along the lines of varying degrees of positive and negative pressure. In training a little negative pressure is used to get a large positive response from the dog. Mostly positive training can be done, but completly positive you would never end up with more than a trained house dog.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I would say it's not +r and I don't think any knowledgeable trainer would approach the problem that way. Especially a 95% positive trainer. A good pos trainer would start from scratch and teach the behavior from square one, if there was a problem with dog playing keep away. 

Is the dog playing keep away with a retrieve object or with a reward object, in this scenario?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> A good pos trainer would start from scratch and teach the behavior from square one, if there was a problem with dog playing keep away.


Yup! 
I have a cocker in for training at the moment, we call 'Forest Gump'!..He is a 'Bog off' out a here!..I put a 'Brace lead' on him with a 'FAT LAB' , in for boarding!..and let them 'GO'. 
Win/Win I would say , and all positive without me doin a thing!


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm pretty much all positive now. I just recall and simply if there is a failure.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Is that 100% Bob?, or 98%..For clarification?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

polmaise said:


> It's Positive if it gets a result ! Or is that too 'cryptic'


Oh heck NO!  right on!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I would say it's not +r and I don't think any knowledgeable trainer would approach the problem that way. Especially a 95% positive trainer. A good pos trainer would start from scratch and teach the behavior from square one, if there was a problem with dog playing keep away.
> 
> Is the dog playing keep away with a retrieve object or with a reward object, in this scenario?


Ah, see, but yes a +r trainer WOULD deal with it this way, because it limits the dog's options to only those rewards which she happens to be providing. 

It's a reward object, which OH btw is also a retrieve object since the CHASE is the reward, not the object, per se.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

polmaise said:


> Is that 100% Bob?, or 98%..For clarification?


LOL dogs don't usually enjoy the recall, unless there is a reward at the end...


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> LOL dogs don't usually enjoy the recall, unless there is a reward at the end...


Another retrieve


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

OK so why do I ask this question. 

I have embarked on an interesting mission of late, with a bunch of +r only folks, and on film, so I can't exactly cheat. 

They are trying to train a group of dogs that really have haphazard foundation work at best, most of which aren't really ready for this particular work...

So we have a few dogs that want to play keep away instead of returning the ball so we can have another repetition of the exercise. 

I suggested defaulting to food for those to avoid the problem, but my all knowing colleagues (who are in charge of the program) see it differently. 

So I call one in and ask how they would deal with it. The first one plays "two toy" with the dog the entire session and gets exactly 2 repetitions of the desired behavior we're trying to create. Dog made exactly 0 progress on the target behavior.

Second trainer, also +r only, stands on the leash and keeps shortening it until the self rewarding behavior is impossible, dog drops the ball and we move on to the real behavior we're training. We got a bunch of reps from that dog but not exactly in an efficient manner.

I keep the lead in my hand and make sure the dog can't go anywhere. I got the most progress out of my dog but within the limitations of the training tool, namely a 6 ft leash. That's not going to be practical forever though because this is a 50 yd exercise. 

Having seen all these different styles and considering we're trying to teach dogs to handle, I thought it might be an interesting discussion for this group.

My assessment at the end of that day was that the true +r trainer thinks they have as long as it takes for any dog to learn and progress. This might well work for an amateur with nothing but one dog and unlimited time to succeed, but for those of us who deal with multiple dogs that need to be trained on a given time frame, it's not a very practical approach.

That was very evident from the three of us training. First trainer (true +r only) teaches a few puppy classes. Second trainer teaches puppy classes but also does some problem solving and has some corrective training in her background.

Every dog I train has a time frame, within which i have to achieve a certain level of training. 

The approaches are clearly aligned to the circumstances in which we all train.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Not every Labrador is a '_Retriever_'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VIYHo8cVHA
So even the infamous 'Trekmoor' aka 'Windem Bang' aka 'Wullie' had a head scratching session with this one?
..
Hmmm? Another retrieve?...Only if the desire is 'Installed'!...
This one had been 'Forced' !..Not 'Force fetch'!..So the desire had to be taken back to basics! ...Kinda simple really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr-fCx7Kxw4


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Yikes, Darrin! I'd say if this is your exposure to mainly pos trainers, you have some poor examples. If the toy reward is causing an obstacle in the training, then they shouldn't use the toy as the reward! And stepping on the leash to catch the dog, just so they can use a toy as a reward also seems counter productive. 

Sounds like you are in a difficult position! As you have intimated, the key to success is the foundation training and choosing the proper reward - so that it at the very least, doesn't interfere with the training!

GOOD LUCK!


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I'm sure they are undoing any progress that they make with you.

Examples: Call the dog and then leash him up.
Call the dog to take something from him (typically dirty underwear)
Call the dog and then shout at him.
Call the dog and crate him.
Call the dog and cut his nails.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Some are happy, to a 'Place', rather than the 'person'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvP-VAYZIbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSt8lNTiwco


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I do not know for sure, but this sounds a lot like puppy training. 12 to 24 weeks. First I would teach the puppy there name. once doing this, I then would call them and clap my hands. If they do not come right away I turn around and run, This triggers their drive to chase, I stop fast and catch them and praise. When they are coming on their name, I give them the object that I am going to use for puppy fetch ( I do not like to use small balls for my larger dog because they tend to roll and chew them. Which might cerate a problem latter) I do not take it from them, I let them kinda sorta present it, in their own way. We have already played the case game so if they run, I will be the case e not the chaser.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Yikes, Darrin! I'd say if this is your exposure to mainly pos trainers, you have some poor examples. If the toy reward is causing an obstacle in the training, then they shouldn't use the toy as the reward! And stepping on the leash to catch the dog, just so they can use a toy as a reward also seems counter productive.
> 
> Sounds like you are in a difficult position! As you have intimated, the key to success is the foundation training and choosing the proper reward - so that it at the very least, doesn't interfere with the training!
> 
> GOOD LUCK!


It's not the trainers per se Jen, but rather the nature of the program. It's all one big experiment and there are a lot of hands on these dogs. I'm volunteering so not my place to write the protocols, nor am I really qualified. 

That's why I was putting some stuff out there to hear what some of the more +r oriented ppl here had to say.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

gdgnyc said:


> Another retrieve


Yes, but not usually in the case of a dog that made a mistake in the field. You sure wouldn't call one in after a screw up and reward him for coming cause you might get lucky and make the screw up a habit!


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Darrin what is the end goal?


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

If you are working on a handling drill are you using ground markers for the dog to target?


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Im not sure I understand the question. 

But I think positive only trainers will see that punishment in the way of using a check cord is acceptable if bdealing with an out of control dog. But I think there is another answer if I understand the issue better.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Darren after re reading the thread I am on board with you. If you are using an object reward and it is doing more harm than good in relation to time restraints to train the dog then you should go to a food reward instead. Is there any reason these folks are not wanting to move to a food reward?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> .....Is the dog playing keep away with a retrieve object or with a reward object, in this scenario?


ain't the fresh shot, still flapping, warm and bloody duck Muffy has in her teeth, one and the same?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jon Couch said:


> Darren after re reading the thread I am on board with you. If you are using an object reward and it is doing more harm than good in relation to time restraints to train the dog then you should go to a food reward instead. Is there any reason these folks are not wanting to move to a food reward?


Yes Jon, ultimately it will be a toy reward for the dog based on the work they are being prepared for. I'm just not sure they understand time frames, OR there really isn't one. I can't really ask those questions. I just do what they ask of me, in this case teach these guys to handle at short range. 

We'll get it done, over time. We may even have a new industry standard protocol when we're done. 

It's FUN!


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> Yes Jon, ultimately it will be a toy reward for the dog based on the work they are being prepared for. I'm just not sure they understand time frames, OR there really isn't one. I can't really ask those questions. I just do what they ask of me, in this case teach these guys to handle at short range.
> 
> We'll get it done, over time. We may even have a new industry standard protocol when we're done.
> 
> It's FUN!


Have they thought about using a tug reward instead of a ball you would have a lot more control over the dog. I have recently started using tug rewards and have found it to be very motivating for our retrievers!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> ain't the fresh shot, still flapping, warm and bloody duck Muffy has in her teeth, one and the same?



Yes, BUT. Are they training the dog to go open a fridge door and using a ball retrieve as a reward. 

Or

Are they training a dog to do a blind retrieve of a duck and the dog is playing keep away with the duck?

Two different scenarios.

Let's all admit, you never know WHAT Darrin is training a dog to do...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Yes, BUT. Are they training the dog to go open a fridge door and using a ball retrieve as a reward.
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


 
A scenario I have seen more than once. Riddle me this Jen. 
Miss Molly Minivan comes to a hunt test. He totally in tune with her Golden Retriever Muffy runs out and gets its first live flier. Molly does not have a group to train with and does not belong to a club. She uses no birds in training. Muffy is for some reason birdy as heck and when it gets to that bird, it is like Ray Lewis in a deer antler shop! Muffy grabs that fresh duck and instead of running straight back to Molly runs to the live gunners and circles them a couple times. Then runs to the gallery and shows the duck to all. Then circles the judges a few times in a full and proper victory lap. And then instead of handing Molly the bird runs to the parking area and sits by the door of the minivan ready to go home.
Handle this how, will you?
BTW I been typing about Miss Molly Minivan for about 98 years here on the RTF (we count in dog years here) so this hypothetical scenario in no way reflects you or your training activities or choice of motor vehicles pr retriever breeds. Just a funny happenstance, it is.
Yet the question is valid and not rhetorical.
How would you counsel Molly?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm just hacking my way through stuff Jenn. Lots of better trainers than me out there with more experience and more natural ability. I just try to work hard.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> A scenario I have seen more than once. Riddle me this Jen.
> Miss Molly Minivan comes to a hunt test. He totally in tune with her Golden Retriever Muffy runs out and gets its first live flier. Molly does not have a group to train with and does not belong to a club. She uses no birds in training. Muffy is for some reason birdy as heck and when it gets to that bird, it is like Ray Lewis in a deer antler shop! Muffy grabs that fresh duck and instead of running straight back to Molly runs to the live gunners and circles them a couple times. Then runs to the gallery and shows the duck to all. Then circles the judges a few times in a full and proper victory lap. And then instead of handing Molly the bird runs to the parking area and sits by the door of the minivan ready to go home.
> Handle this how, will you?
> BTW I been typing about Miss Molly Minivan for about 98 years here on the RTF (we count in dog years here) so this hypothetical scenario in no way reflects you or your training activities or choice of motor vehicles pr retriever breeds. Just a funny happenstance, it is.
> ...


"rope" come to mind by any chance Ken?

LOL and I've seen that happen at a club training day to a guy who HAS a training group, and an e-collar!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

To stop going to tests and to go back to the training yard. First work on fetch from the ground using a duck. Hold the duck and delivery to hand. Then work on short hand thrown duck retrieves, then work on gunner thrown ducks in the field - a lot! Molly has to have at least one friend or family member or paid neighbor kid to help be a live gunner!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> ..... Molly has to have at least one friend or family member or paid neighbor kid to help be a live gunner!



some folk have beautiful disaster by 311 as a theme song


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> some folk have beautiful disaster by 311 as a theme song


You must be younger than I am - I have no idea what you're talking about!

Darrin, you have my respect - glad you have these training opportunities and hope you will share the good stuff with the rest of us!

Jen


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> You must be younger than I am - I have no idea what you're talking about!
> 
> Jen


311 is a pop music group
beautiful disaster is a song

opening verse-
Today seems like a good day to burn a bridge or two
The one with old wood creaking that would burn away
right on cue
I try to be not like that but some people really shuck
Some people need to get the axing chalk it up to bad
luck

I know a drugstore cowgirl so afraid of getting bored
She's always running from something so many things
ignored
I might do that stuff if it didn't make me feel like
smit
I'm on some old reality tip so many trips in it


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> A scenario I have seen more than once. Riddle me this Jen.
> Miss Molly Minivan comes to a hunt test. He totally in tune with her Golden Retriever Muffy runs out and gets its first live flier. Molly does not have a group to train with and does not belong to a club. She uses no birds in training. Muffy is for some reason birdy as heck and when it gets to that bird, it is like Ray Lewis in a deer antler shop! Muffy grabs that fresh duck and instead of running straight back to Molly runs to the live gunners and circles them a couple times. Then runs to the gallery and shows the duck to all. Then circles the judges a few times in a full and proper victory lap. And then instead of handing Molly the bird runs to the parking area and sits by the door of the minivan ready to go home.
> Handle this how, will you?
> BTW I been typing about Miss Molly Minivan for about 98 years here on the RTF (we count in dog years here) so this hypothetical scenario in no way reflects you or your training activities or choice of motor vehicles pr retriever breeds. Just a funny happenstance, it is.
> ...


This doesn't have anything to do with positive training. This was just a lack of training. That could very well happen to a poorly trained forced dog.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Jen

My helper was the newspaper delivery boy. I hired him to help me. Kids don't deliver papers anymore so now it's a little harder.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

gdgnyc said:


> Jen
> 
> My helper was the newspaper delivery boy. I hired him to help me. Kids don't deliver papers anymore so now it's a little harder.


I am lucky that my husband is a willing participant. There's no way my friends would help. Touching dead birds is not part of their reality.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

For the dog playing keep away with dummy, there are two solutions. Either will generally work:

1. Take the dummy out of the equation and give the dog a number of reinforcements for coming to you. Take him for a hike and periodically call him to you and give him a treat. Make sure it is a high value treat to the dog. Obviously the reward will not be a dummy. You can also increase the treat value further by making sure the dog is hungry. After 30 or 40 high value reinforcements for coming to you from various distances and various locations, add the dummy back in. You can think of the dummy as simply another distraction level.

or

2. Find a large area, far from automobiles and throw the dog a dummy. When he picks it up, simply turn and walk away from him. Keep walking until he catches up with you. Keep your mouth shut and make no noise. That activity simply tells pup where you are. It may take 40 yards or it may take 100 yds, but pup will look up and see you leaving and come find you. When he arrives, take the dummy (with no movement toward him) and tell him thank you for the nice delivery to hand. Wait a second or two and then give him a treat. I have never had to do the walk away act more than three times with a dog to have him coming proficiently with dummy in mouth. Many people tend to interpret these instructions as walk away 30 feet and then stop and call the pup. The correct process is keep walking silently until pup catches you, then while you are still walking in the same direction, reach down and take the dummy.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's the way I approach "keep away". Make it a non-issue.  

*"Here" first...then "Fetch"*


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Polmaise* posted


> The recent Five nations results must have you 'cockahoop' and feeling positive ?:grin:..


Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands. The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing! 

Eug


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *Polmaise* posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands. The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.
> 
> If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!
> 
> Eug


Eug what the heck are you doing posting this foreign language at 10 am??


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Darrin,

You think that's difficult to interpret, just wait until me and *crackerd* get going in our native dialect, Brummie. What follows may not be fully clear at first reading because I've had to delete all the expletives which in Brummagem serve as punctuation marks. 

'Islot am orlrite but weem agooin dowun the suff. The Toffees stuffed the Baggies Sarrerdy, burrit do marrer, theym saefe. The vanilla am in the browun stuff.

Gorrit? 'Tae 'ard. This am we







Un thissens issn.









Eug


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Last sentence is Deutsch.

Darrin, don't you sleep?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

KwickLabs said:


> Here's the way I approach "keep away". Make it a non-issue.
> 
> *"Here" first...then "Fetch"*


Thanks, Jim. Have you trained any puppies where teaching the command "here" wasn't so easy to do? And if you did, how did you resolve the problem? I would like to have many tools available for this.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

George well spotted. There is a lot of Old German in Birmingham and Black Country speech. A common greeting is "Ow bist?" Anyway that'e enough nonsense from me .... back to the topic.

Eug


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

gdgnyc said:


> Last sentence is Deutsch.
> 
> Darrin, don't you sleep?


Just 4 hours last night George, more tonight, I promise!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

rmilner said:


> For the dog playing keep away with dummy, there are two solutions. Either will generally work:
> 
> 1. Take the dummy out of the equation and give the dog a number of reinforcements for coming to you. Take him for a hike and periodically call him to you and give him a treat. Make sure it is a high value treat to the dog. Obviously the reward will not be a dummy. You can also increase the treat value further by making sure the dog is hungry. After 30 or 40 high value reinforcements for coming to you from various distances and various locations, add the dummy back in. You can think of the dummy as simply another distraction level.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions Robert (and Jim in the next post). 

I don't have any problem teaching the dog to come back and give me the object. I don't even have a problem doing it with primarily +r, or even purely +r. 

What I don't have is TIME to repair these dogs basics and move them through the exercise I need to teach. 

I don't have any problem doing that either, despite the holes in their training. 

My question was... If you're +r only... is stepping on the leash not against that theory?

I really have NO PROBLEM with my colleague here stepping on the leash. If fact, I quite like the idea. There's just a flat collar on the dog. It's pretty gentle and has been effective for us in being able to focus on what we're working on vs. continually working on remedial training of basic concepts. 

I just wanted to hear what some of the +r proponents attempting to do retriever work had to say about the idea.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I wish the UK guys would speak American, Can anyone understand Palomaise on his videos?  


QUOTE=Colonel Blimp;1066663]*Polmaise* posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands. The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing! 

Eug[/QUOTE]


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Darrin,
Stepping on the leash is fine with me. I do it when I need to. I have my trainers do it (I have trouble getting the trainers to keep their hands off of the rope). I look at it as helping structure the scenario such that the behavior that you want occurs. Then you can pay the behavior. That is the only way to communicate to the dog what you want him to do.
You can accomplish the same thing by putting the dog in hall way and giving him a retrieve. Hallways, however, are not very portable.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Thanks, Jim. Have you trained any puppies where teaching the command "here" wasn't so easy to do?


I don't teach "here" as a command with puppies. Commands require enforcing. Until formal OB is begun, the "words" intended for use during formal training are imprinted. When I find myself "making puppies do stuff", it is time to start looking at my teaching skills. It helps to be a good "con artist". 

For example, they "kennel up" initially with a treat. "Sitting" can easily be introduced by properly positioning a treat and/or a gentle push on the rump in context. This is not new territory. I don't do teaching lessons once or twice a day. My pups do everything in the context of their daily routine. I'm retired which means I'm always there. 

They sit before getting out of crate. Sit when out of the crate to fit a collar on. They are leash broke early on by gently presenting the concept of "giving neck" (living room tethering sessions). Very soon, they walk with a loose leash to the door for airing. They know where they are going. Sit to open and exit doors and sit to be let off the leash once outside. No enforced commands or five minute lessons once in awhile...just simple routines. These are lifelong expectations which puppies are perfectly capable of doing early on. 

The rationale is that good behavior is not a five minute drill. The key is that when done in context, very soon the pup will walk near you on a leash because he knows where we are going. He will sit when in front of the door because the door (being in context) "is where I sit". He will sit outside the door because he knows the leash must be removed. I find pups routinely exhibit the desired behaviors because it is normal. It is not unusual to have the pup sitting at the right time without you even asking him to do so. Very early on, the pup learns and accepts the "this is what I do because it is all I know" attitude. It is good to be proactive.

There's nothing wrong about teaching a pup what is check cord is. The problem is check cords are not for fixing "stuff". All too often it is eventually slapped on cold because the trainer is getting steamed at their pup for daring to play keep away. 

The usual Internet routine is to answer the frustrated post "My pup is playing with me and I can't get him to bring the bumper back." Well how much time was spent on making it pleasant to return to you? Is the puppy leash broke? Has he ever dragged a check cord behind him and/or been condtition to it? The reply is usually in this context. "No, but I'll put one on him tommorow and he won't get away with that anymore." And the pup doesn't. 

There is a huge difference in nuturing vs. demanding responsiveness. With very young pups I avoid "fixing stuff" with demanding presentations where control is the driving motivation. Work on responsiveness first and integrate control when it is age appropriate. 

Which means.....no, I do not have any problems getting puppies to come to me WHEN that is all we are working on....and it begins when they are 7-8 weeks old......not when it suddenly becomes a nuisance.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

So Jim, when adolescence and drive building creeps up on you and the great behaviors of those puppies begin to deteriorate in exciting situations, I assume you more to a more demanding demeanor?


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> So Jim, when adolescence and drive building creeps up on you and the great behaviors of those puppies begin to deteriorate in exciting situations, I assume you move to a more demanding demeanor?


Absolutely! Everything is in place to make "keep away' a non-issue the same day the pup discovers it. The best choice is obvious to the pup. Indirect pressure is cool.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ok, Bridget, I've got this one:



> I wish the UK guys would speak American, Can anyone understand Palomaise on his videos? :wink:



QUOTE=Colonel Blimp;1066663]*Polmaise* posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.:wink: The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing! 

Eug[/QUOTE] 

Eugene is saying, he not only goes both ways, but many ways (not that there is anything wrong with that). And, he likes to drink and gamble.  I am not sure what this has to do with training dogs, but whatever..... it's RTF.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> Ok, Bridget, I've got this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now that there is funny! I don't care who you are!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Susan, you're a genius!

Always wondered how many ways Eug goes... guess it depends on how many pubs there are and in what direction.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> So Jim, when adolescence and drive building creeps up on you and the great behaviors of those puppies begin to deteriorate in exciting situations, I assume you more to a more demanding demeanor?​


Sounds like the perfect time to collar condition and force fetch.

Sorry Darrin, couldn't resist.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Howard N said:


> Sounds like the perfect time to collar condition and force fetch.
> 
> Sorry Darrin, couldn't resist.


You know how I feel Howard but sometimes... We don't get to make the rules!


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

If you need a collar to make a dog come to you then you have issues with training


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bob Barnett said:


> If you need a collar to make a dog come to you then you have issues with training


Blanket statements such as this are general pretty dangerous Bob. You tend to get made a fool of eventually.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

LMFAO!!!! Awesome Susan! Thanks for the translation! 


JusticeDog said:


> Ok, Bridget, I've got this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eugene is saying, he not only goes both ways, but many ways (not that there is anything wrong with that). And, he likes to drink and gamble.  I am not sure what this has to do with training dogs, but whatever..... it's RTF.[/QUOTE]


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> Blanket statements such as this are general pretty dangerous Bob. You tend to get made a fool of eventually.


I think I can handle it. 

Just having fun the same way the poster that mentioned collars was having fun


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

sorry Bob I kinda know Howard, but haven't really posted with you much. I knew he was kidding.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> sorry Bob I kinda know Howard, but haven't really posted with you much. I knew he was kidding.


No problem. I have done plenty of ecollar training and have nothing against it.
I have just recently been corrupted by Milner


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

DarrinGreene said:


> My question was... If you're +r only... is stepping on the leash not against that theory?
> 
> I really have NO PROBLEM with my colleague here stepping on the leash. If fact, I quite like the idea. There's just a flat collar on the dog. It's pretty gentle and has been effective for us in being able to focus on what we're working on vs. continually working on remedial training of basic concepts.
> 
> I just wanted to hear what some of the +r proponents attempting to do retriever work had to say about the idea.


Stepping on a leash is "allowed." I'd call it negative punishment. You're limiting options. 

It's a bit different if you're stepping on the leash while the dog is bolting away from you and you clothesline him.

It's even more different if you've set the dog up to be tempted to bolt and you step on the leash to clothesline him. 

In any case, there are probably more efficient ways of teaching the lesson than relying on the leash. Leashes are seat belts, not steering wheels or brakes.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> Stepping on a leash is "allowed." I'd call it negative punishment. You're limiting options.
> 
> It's a bit different if you're stepping on the leash while the dog is bolting away from you and you clothesline him.
> 
> ...


I still have to ask though... How do you call it training with positive methods if restraining the dog is acceptable?

It's punishment, in one form or another...

Stepping on the leash - +p and -p
Pinch collar= +p and -p
E collar = +p and -p

So... it's not the method that's a problem but rather, it's the tools.


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

"Pure positive" is a straw man. No trainer never uses punishment. If a behavior decreases, it has been punished. That's perfectly fine, some behaviors need to be decreased. Counter surfing, peeing in the house, I would rather my dog not perform those behaviors. If they decrease in frequency, they have been punished. That is what the word means. 

IMO "positive training" differs in two key aspects.

1) the rejection of positive punishment or applied aversives - popping a choke chain, smacking with a heeling stick, pinching an ear.

2) a greater interest in reinforcing desired behavior than in punishing undesired behavior.

This is not to say other trainers do not do the same, but its generally what seperates a positive trainer from a "traditional" or "balanced" trainer.

The quadrants are generally seen in +R/-P or -R/+P pairs. -P has always been "allowed" in +R training. "Positive" is just an abbreviated label.

And this isn't even getting into the difference between positive training and clicker training.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, it's all rocket science after all. Ask any 250/hr behaviorist


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