# Lardy TRT Indirect Pressure Question



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

On the second disk of Lardy's TRT, Lardy introduces indirect pressure utilizing the here "nick" sit for lack of effort during simple cast drills. In his example the dog goes to the wrong pile and presents Lardy an opportunity for introducing and utilizing indirect pressure. I get that concept, but he also mentions indirect pressure can be used for shopping the bumpers, lollygagging over the pile etc. But he doesn't go in to how to apply it when those situations occur when the dog is on the pile.

Can anyone explain how to apply the indirect pressure when a dog is shopping the pile during simple casting drills.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Nick to here whistle-nick-whistle and its a low nick
At least thats how it was taught to me


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

X2 for shopping pile. For standing over the pile, I would do it a little different. Fetch nick. Assuming you have been through simple casting, ecollar fetch, etc. 
Did you prevent shopping the pile in simple casting to a pile with a rope?


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> X2 for shopping pile. For standing over the pile, I would do it a little different. Fetch nick. Assuming you have been through simple casting, ecollar fetch, etc.
> Did you prevent shopping the pile in simple casting to a pile with a rope?


Lardy does ecollar fetch after indirect pressure, so no I have not. Thinking I should move to that though. Simple casting has been going well, except I need to move into indirect pressure since he likes going to a pile of his choosing at times. I am more concerned with the shopping, standing over a pile, or grabbing two at once before retrieve. I think ecollar fetch will help with this but it is out of step from Lardy's program. I tried the rope thing, but it is constantly getting in the way so I am off lead right now.


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Lardy does ecollar fetch then comes back to simple casting (w/o lead) and introduces to indirect pressure. Look at your flow chart again. Look under "E collar conditioning": 
Obedience
De-bolt
Collar Fetch
Introduction to Indirect Pressure

Don't try to use indirect pressure without first doing ecollar conditioning. How would the dog know what to do, either sit or here from a nick? Any casting prior to ecollar condtioning should be done with a lead. I know working with a 20' lead is a pain but it is the way to go.
Maintaining good lead control is the essence of preventing shopping. See below:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...Casting-to-a-Pile&highlight=Rowdy+(by+Pirate)


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Lardy does ecollar fetch then comes back to simple casting (w/o lead) and introduces to indirect pressure. Look at your flow chart again. Look under "E collar conditioning":
> Obedience
> De-bolt
> Collar Fetch
> ...


Wayne

My dog is collar conditioned. Lardy does collar conditioning at end of disk 1, then indirect pressure with ecollar doing simple casting at start of disk 2, then ecollar fetch in prep for pile work. I haven't watched the ecollar fetch segment which follows indirect pressure on the disk


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

freezeland said:


> Wayne
> 
> My dog is collar conditioned. Lardy does collar conditioning at end of disk 1, then indirect pressure with ecollar doing simple casting at start of disk 2, then ecollar fetch in prep for pile work. I haven't watched the ecollar fetch segment which follows indirect pressure on the disk


Wayne

I looked at the flow chart, it is in fact in the order you describe above, but it is not in that order on the disk. On the disk it is indirect pressure then collar fetch.....


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

rboudet said:


> Nick to here whistle-nick-whistle and its a low nick
> At least thats how it was taught to me



This would be your correct sequence.


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Now that you mention it I have seen this abnomality (sp?) before. But, I would still get him casting correctly 80-90 percent of the time with the rope before using indirect pressure.


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Now that you mention it I have seen this abnomality (sp?) before. But, I would still get him casting correctly 80-90 percent of the time with the rope before using indirect pressure.


Gotcha, but Im still confused on the order, ecollar fetch then indirect, or indirect then ecollar. The flow chart makes more sense, collar fetch then indirect pressure....


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I think the flow chart in the booklet accompanying the TRT 2d ed. is incorrect. I cross referenced to the flow chart in Volume 1 of Lardy's Retriever Journal articles and the flow chart reflects what is shown in the dvds.

In the big scheme of things I don't know that it matters that much. There is probably only one or two days separating the two drills. With my last two dogs Hank and Rowdy (by Pirate), their casting was so good that I didn't get a chance to do indirect pressure at that point in their progress.


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I think the flow chart in the booklet accompanying the TRT 2d ed. is incorrect. I cross referenced to the flow chart in Volume 1 of Lardy's Retriever Journal articles and the flow chart reflects what is shown in the dvds.
> 
> In the big scheme of things I don't know that it matters that much. There is probably only one or two days separating the two drills. With my last two dogs Hank and Rowdy (by Pirate), their casting was so good that I didn't get a chance to do indirect pressure at that point in their progress.


Thanks Wayne


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

You need to collar fetch first ....if you try to use indirect pressure withOUT having done collar fetch ,likely the dog will spit out the bumper....before doing anything. He NEEDS to know that bumper is not why he is being nicked


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Bridget Bodine said:


> You need to collar fetch first ....if you try to use indirect pressure withOUT having done collar fetch ,likely the dog will spit out the bumper....before doing anything. He NEEDS to know that bumper is not why he is being nicked


Thats what I thought and why I have been questioning the order on the dvd, it has indirect first


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Bridget, I have deviated from Lardy by doing collar fetch first also. But in Lardys indirect pressure technique he does the ecollar corrections before the dog has the bumper in his mouth. There are no corrections after the dog has the bumper.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I do collar cond before force fetch , then FF and right into collar fetch, so take my advice for what it is worth , which is nothing , when following step by step Lardy. 
I am curious to know what happens when he nicks the dog on here for shopping....likely comes in without a bumper , then you ear pinch back to the pile?


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I do collar cond before force fetch , then FF and right into collar fetch, so take my advice for what it is worth , which is nothing , when following step by step Lardy.
> I am curious to know what happens when he nicks the dog on here for shopping....likely comes in without a bumper , then you ear pinch back to the pile?


Bridget

Lardy doesn't say, that was the question of my original post. Maybe the answer to that is on his cc series disk, or one of his articles. I don't have those. I have my dog collar conditioned, but have not applied indirect pressure or collar fetch him yet. I think I am going to do collar fetch first, that makes more sense to me. Wayne is right though, and a good observation by him. Lardy applies indirect before the dog even gets to the pile in TRT2. But mentions it can be used for shopping but doesn't say how......


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

In my example of nick here for shopping I wouldn't do that until after ecollar conditioning as I originally stated. In Lardy's indirect pressure on simple casting for shopping he would probably, say sit, then nick, then say fetch, then say here. 

In later sequences after ecollar fetch he does say here nick for shopping. You can see this when he does swimby. He discusses corrections for shopping, I believe, when he does TT. Which is here, nick.


----------



## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

To clarify for my purposes and maybe others would putting pressure on the dog for shopping, a nick, be direct pressure? Therefore Lardy wouldn't be discussing it in the indirect pressure segment. As I understand it indirect pressure as per his definition or how he explains it is pressure not for the command given ex: give right over cast and dog goes to left over, you blow the sit whistle and give a nick. You are not exactly nicking for the cast refusal in the dogs mind you nicked after the whistle. Nicking a dog for shopping, for the fetch command would be a direct form of pressure in my mind, and you would have had to CC to fetch before doing this. Thats how I take it anyways.


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Daren, you and I were typing at the same time. See my post above. Lardy does say take care of the shopping issue with a rope in simple casting. If this is done right then shopping the pile won't be an issue. The number of times that Rowdy or Hank have shopped the pile can be counted on two fingers. It's best to get this issue resolved with rope control.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I believe that for shopping , IF you are nicking on "here" when you want a dog to pick up a bumper and come in, it would be indirect pressure. If You are nicking for "fetch" it would be direct pressure. Now if the dog started to come in without the bumper and you " back Nick backed", that would be direct pressure


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I did some more reading. In Lardy's RJ article on indirect pressure. He says "If your dog stands over the pile, you could try 'sit'-nick-'fetch'.

I thought it was interesting that he said you could "try".


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Daren, you and I were typing at the same time. See my post above. Lardy does say take care of the shopping issue with a rope in simple casting. If this is done right then shopping the pile won't be an issue. The number of times that Rowdy or Hank have shopped the pile can be counted on two fingers. It's best to get this issue resolved with rope control.


Wayne

Thanks for that post, what cd does he say that on? in his segment on disk 2 of TRT v2 for indirect pressure he only says indirect can be used for shopping too but doen't explain how, and I didn't hear anything about a rope. Was that on disk 1 in formal obiedence. I skipped that as my dog was already formal OB when I bought the Lardy series.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

freezeland said:


> Wayne
> 
> My dog is collar conditioned. Lardy does collar conditioning at end of disk 1, then indirect pressure with ecollar doing simple casting at start of disk 2, then ecollar fetch in prep for pile work. I haven't watched the ecollar fetch segment which follows indirect pressure on the disk



do not worry about only watching the part of the vid your working on. It is OK to stop and watch the entire set right now. your not going to spoil the ending. ;-) you need to have the whole program in your head. Not just todays lesson.


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Disc 1, Part 7, Simple Casting. Starts talking about shopping right at the end of three bumpers and right before putting out piles. While he is doing simple casting with a rope he make several statements about getting this right because if you don't it will haunt you all the rest of the time you are doing drills or something like that. At first he call is messing around with the bumpers and then later defines it as shopping. Then in the closing he states something about going directly to one bumper as being the end product of this drill.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I believe that for shopping , IF you are nicking on "here" when you want a dog to pick up a bumper and come in, it would be indirect pressure. If You are nicking for "fetch" it would be direct pressure. Now if the dog started to come in without the bumper and you " back Nick backed", that would be direct pressure


I wouldn't be nicking on anything until I had done CC'ing...If I nick on a here I would expect my dog to come to me ...not turn and pick up a bumper...then I would ear pinch the dog to the pile ..In my program we do fetch to a pile after we come off the table or finish ff to a single bumper and stick fetch...This is where it is cleaned up with a rope, a long time before we ever get to simple casting...Does any one on the forum use the Danny Farmer program ? I'm talking from start to finish...Has any one been to his seminars...? Steve S


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I agree with that, def NO nicking until cc is done. I was just explaining where it would be direct pressure and where indirect pressure.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I agree with that, def NO nicking until cc is done. I was just explaining where it would be direct pressure and where indirect pressure.


I gotcha ..I wasn't assuming you did it that way ..I was just commenting about what you wrote...There had been some discussion on when the CC'ing is done in Lardy's program in relation to the use of so called indirect pressure on the simple casting drill...It seems there is a discrepancy between written material and cd's... Steve S


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Steve, You might have hit on a subject for a poll. Which program do people follow? List some of the major ones: Lardy, Graham, Rick S., Farmer and even have an other category. I don't know how to do this. Do you?


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Steve, You might have hit on a subject for a poll. Which program do people follow? List some of the major ones: Lardy, Graham, Rick S., Farmer and even have an other category. I don't know how to do this. Do you?



NO....I'm computer illiterate....Can type pretty good though ...I have never heard his program mentioned..Not as advertised as the others..If you haven't been to one of his seminars they probably have never known it excised...I'll tell you a little story from the first seminar of his I went to...He was telling the importance of following the program ...He said " If Judy had told him to jack up the right front tire and take it off and lay it on the ground beside the truck then go train, that is what I would have done....Put the tire back on before going home.." Pretty strong words on following the program ....Steve S


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Under what circumstance would you not just use direct pressure for shopping or standing over the bird/slow pickup ?

john


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

freezeland said:


> ....Can anyone explain how to apply the indirect pressure when a dog is shopping the pile during simple casting drills.


 Indirect pressure can be used to correct anything that the dog deliberately does, immediately before the indirect pressure was applied.

As long as the dog understands the applied pressure as reinforcement of a known command, it will work as indirect pressure for what the dog did wrong.

The primary reason for returning to simple casting, for indirect pressure introduction following collar conditioning, is to proof your collar conditioning. It gives the dog more to think about, and "aggravates" it's tendency to "screw up".

If it doesn't respond correctly to the e-collar pressure, then you know that you haven't been thorough enough with your CC.

Obviously, you can't apply the collar to correct for shopping, before you have completed collar fetch. 
But, you CAN ear pinch the dog, if it refuses to fetch following a sit-nick, or a here-nick.

When the dog shows you that it does not understand the pressure you applied to enforce something, you should immediately fall back on what the dog already knows.

Don't keep repeating the same thing.

If the dog responds to a fetch-swat, by refusing to fetch, you don't come right back with another fetch-swat. You pinch the ear.
If the dog responds to a sit-nick, by refusing to sit, you don't come right back with another sit-nick. You jerk the choke chain, and/or swat the rump.

Don't keep applying the same form of pressure, when the dog shows you that it doesn't understand it. 
Change it, so that the dog understands it.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> *Indirect pressure can be used to correct anything that the dog deliberately does, immediately before the indirect pressure was applied.*
> 
> As long as the dog understands the applied pressure as reinforcement of a known command, it will work as indirect pressure for what the dog did wrong.
> 
> ...


*
*


The first part is what I don't understand ...I must be slow on the up take ..There was no indirect pressure applied ..Only direct pressure on a known command...That direct pressure may effect something in an indirect way though ..I believe it effect what follows not what preceded.....God said " my ways are not your ways and my thoughts or not your thoughts" I guess some things are just meant not to be understood....

I understand this portion ...the 2nd part highlighted ....Steve S


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

steve schreiner said:


> ..There was no indirect pressure applied ..Only direct pressure on a known command...


 Any time you apply direct pressure to enforce a command, there is indirect pressure applied to something else.

Whatever the dog was doing at the time. 
Shopping the pile, chasing a rabbit, peeing on a training partner, etc.

The dog associates what it was doing, with the discomfort of the applied pressure.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Any time you apply direct pressure to enforce a command, there is indirect pressure applied to something else.
> 
> Whatever the dog was doing at the time.
> Shopping the pile, chasing a rabbit, peeing on a training partner, etc.
> ...


*

* 

Not the command given just before the stimulation ..? Steve S


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

steve schreiner said:


> ....Not the command given just before the stimulation ..? Steve S


 Not if the dog has been conditioned to perform that command in response to the pressure.

If it hasn't, and the dog was trying to obey the command, then yes. The applied pressure would be associated with obeying the command. And effectively punish the behavior that the dog was doing right.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

john fallon said:


> Under what circumstance would you *not* just use direct pressure for shopping or standing over the bird/slow pickup ?
> 
> john


When you apply direct pressure, you are also indirectly punishing something else.

If the dog was doing EVERYTHING right except for a slow pick-up, I would give the command fetch, and *repeat it,* with a nick at the same instant. That way, the indirect pressure correction is most likely to be applied to the dog *not *fetching.

However, if the dog is shopping bumpers, it's not merely a case of "not fetching". It's also a case of not returning quickly.
So, I can potentially fix both problems in the same instant, by commanding HERE, and nicking at the same time.

If the dog understands the here-nick, it will return with a bumper, and is not likely to shop the next time.

The direct pressure, reinforced the quick return. 
The indirect pressure punished the shopping.

That's what I want the dog to understand it as. 
They don't always understand indirect pressure how I wanted them to understand it.

In that case, the worst thing I can do, is to repeat the same sequence and expect the dog to miraculously understand it the next time. 
I need to change something.

Maybe, a sit-nick-fetch will be better understood. 
Maybe, a HERE, with no nick and when the dog gets back to me without a bumper, an ear pinch to the pile will fix the problem.

The dog tells you what it understood it as.


----------



## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

steve schreiner said:


> I wouldn't be nicking on anything until I had done CC'ing...If I nick on a here I would expect my dog to come to me ...not turn and pick up a bumper...then I would ear pinch the dog to the pile ..In my program we do fetch to a pile after we come off the table or finish ff to a single bumper and stick fetch...This is where it is cleaned up with a rope, a long time before we ever get to simple casting...Does any one on the forum use the Danny Farmer program ? I'm talking from start to finish...Has any one been to his seminars...? Steve S


RE: Danny Farmer videos...I'm new here and don't want to step on any toes...but you asked so yes...I have the Farmer/Aycock video and think his/her methods are harsh to the point of being abusive. The proof of the pudding is how their dogs practically crawl on their bellies up to the line on heel commands. 

I know they've won TONS of competitions...but if that is what it takes (and it isn't) then I would want no part of it.

Just my personal opinion.

(-:


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Woofer, What is the name of the video you are refering to?


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Woofer, What is the name of the video you are refering to?


Yeah.

I need to order one too!


----------



## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Nice job by cd explaining indirect pressure.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> If the dog was doing EVERYTHING right except for a slow pick-up, I would give the command fetch, and *repeat it,* with a nick at the same instant. That way, the indirect pressure correction is most likely to be applied to the dog *not *fetching.


Wouldn't the Fetch Fetch nick Fetch be direct pressure



> However, if the dog is shopping bumpers, it's not merely a case of "not fetching". It's also a case of not returning quickly.


 That's a little too convoluted for me. The dog is not fetching (picking up the bird/ bumper/whatever) apply direct pressure with fetch and the collar, once the dog has made the retrieve, if it does not return at a brisk pace then direct presure to here and the collar



> So, I can potentially fix both problems in the same instant, by commanding HERE, and nicking at the same timeIf the dog understands the here-nick, it will return with a bumper, and is not likely to shop the next time.


What do you do if upon receiving the simultaneous here nick the dog starts in ,without the bird a distinct possibility 



> The direct pressure, reinforced the quick return.
> The indirect pressure punished the shopping.


Could be, but I am not as sure as you are.



> That's what I want the dog to understand it as.
> They don't always understand indirect pressure how I wanted them to understand it.
> 
> In that case, the worst thing I can do, is to repeat the same sequence and expect the dog to miraculously understand it the next time.
> ...


I try to shy away from corrections where I am unsure of the probable outcome, so I use a limited amount of indirect pressure when a direct presure correction will apply a pinpoint correction for the infraction..[/QUOTE]

john


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

john fallon said:


> Wouldn't the Fetch Fetch nick Fetch be direct pressure?


 Yes. But there is ALWAYS indirect pressure associated with direct pressure. You cannot eliminate it.

By repeating the command, and *then*​ applying pressure in conjunction with the repeated command, the indirect pressure is attributed to the dog *not* complying fast enough. 
It wasn't trying, and it knows that it wasn't trying.



john fallon said:


> That's a little too convoluted for me. The dog is not fetching (picking up the bird/ bumper/whatever) once the dog has made the retrieve, if it does not return at a brisk pace then direct pressure to here....


 If the dog is shopping, it hasn't made the retrieve.




john fallon said:


> What do you do if upon receiving the simultaneous here nick the dog starts in ,without the bird a distinct possibility.....


 What bird? I was talking about shopping a pile.




john fallon said:


> Could be, but I am not as sure as you are.....


 It doesn't matter what you are sure of. What matters, is what the dog is sure of.




john fallon said:


> I try to shy away from corrections where I am unsure of the probable outcome, so I use a limited amount of indirect pressure when a direct pressure correction will apply a pinpoint correction for the infraction..


 Direct pressure only applies to specific commands that the dog has been conditioned to perform in response to applied pressure.

For the most part, those are limited to GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME.

If you have more, great.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Direct pressure only applies to specific commands that the dog has been conditioned to perform in response to applied pressure.
> 
> For the most part, those are limited to GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME.
> 
> If you have more, great.





me said:


> Under what circumstance would you not just use direct pressure for shopping or standing over the bird/slow pickup ?



So as not to complicate things by going off in a lot of different tangents I will simply rephrase the question above..... 

When it comes to infractions pertaining to things having to do with GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME. Why not just stick with direct pressure ?

john


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

john fallon said:


> So as not to complicate things br going off in a lot of different tangents I will rephrase the question above.....
> 
> When it comes to infractions pertaining to things having to do with GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME. Why not just stick with direct pressure ?
> 
> john


 *ALL* of those, should have been cleaned up in the yard.

That's what it means, when we talk about basics. 
If you are still fighting that stuff in advanced work, you've dropped a pretty big ball.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> *ALL* of those, should have been cleaned up in the yard.
> 
> That's what it means, when we talk about basics.
> If you are still fighting that stuff in advanced work, you've dropped a pretty big ball.


LOL If that were the case _after a certain point _one would not even need a collar. The reality of it is that you do;-) .......

BTW I wish you would answer the question.
john


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

john fallon said:


> ...BTW I wish you would answer the question....


 The reality of it is, that there isn't that much in advanced training that deals with failures to GO/FETCH, STOP, or COME.

However, in order to apply indirect pressure, you HAVE TO be able to apply direct pressure to GO/FETCH, STOP, or COME. 
And that applies to a whole freaking lot of advanced training.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> The reality of it is, that there isn't that much in advanced training that deals with failures to GO/FETCH, STOP, or COME.
> 
> However, in order to apply indirect pressure, you HAVE TO be able to apply direct pressure to GO/FETCH, STOP, or COME.
> And that applies to a whole freaking lot of advanced training.


Actually the reality of it is that from the cradle to the grave the entire training thing is built on, and includes the maintaining of go, stop, and come. Failure to Stop ( sit immediately and look to the handler for instructions) jumps out as a big problem on a PB blind.
Not taking those instructions is tantamount to not going at all 

john


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

john fallon said:


> ....Failure to Stop ( sit immediately and look to the handler for instructions) jumps out as a big problem on a PB blind....


 That's not the problem that an advanced dog would have.

Refusing the cast away from the poison bird, sure. 
But not stopping, means big gaping hole in your basics.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> That's not the problem that an advanced dog would have.
> 
> Refusing the cast away from the poison bird, sure.
> But not stopping, means big gaping hole in your basics.


Or....maybe a nose full of scent?


----------



## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Woofer, What is the name of the video you are refering to?


"Retriever Training Basics with Danny Farmer and Judy Aycock."


----------



## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

I'm surprised no one has yet referenced Jerry's indirect pressure responce from years ago. Learn to search....JD


----------



## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I would have to agree with John on this one. I have seen FC AFC go through a spell of popping, not sitting on the whistle. It is just not that simple..



john fallon said:


> LOL If that were the case _after a certain point _one would not even need a collar. The reality of it is that you do;-) .......
> 
> BTW I wish you would answer the question.
> john


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

dexdoolittle said:


> I would have to agree with John on this one. I have seen FC AFC go through a spell of popping, not sitting on the whistle. It is just not that simple..


 Okay, by percentage, how often would you say that your collar use is aimed at dealing with fundamental failures to go, stop, or come vs using it as indirect pressure to correct something else?


----------



## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

There is no reason to debate which is more important or used more oftern. I did not like the statement, that go/stop/come problems end at basics. I trained enough and have seen enough to know that is not the case. Does it happen a lot maybe not, but I have seen it happen, and it had nothing to do with their basics. 


copterdoc said:


> Okay, by percentage, how often would you say that your collar use is aimed at dealing with fundamental failures to go, stop, or come vs using it as indirect pressure to correct something else?


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> *ALL* of those, should have been cleaned up in the yard.
> 
> That's what it means, when we talk about basics.
> If you are still fighting that stuff in advanced work, you've dropped a pretty big ball.


Hey Chopper Fixer,

I thought you have some good points about Indirect Pressure although I didn't agree with all you said. The fraility of the Internet exchanges kept me from responding to some subtle points. 

However, I can't buy into your above statement for a second. I train Advanced dogs often and with others, so not just my own. It is extremely common for very accomplished dogs (I'm talking Field Champions and National winners) to require corrections for basic and fundamental short-comings. This includes Go Stop and Come. We often adddress these and many other problems with Indirect pressure because it can have fewer negative side effects (to answer one of Fallon's questions). But we also use Direct Pressure. While the use of Direct Pressure has indirect effects it is still widely used in Advanced training. I know you are not a "trial" guy but am now wondering what Advanced dog training stands behind your often thoughtful comments about training and the above statement. Scholarly, textbook answers are not always correct, just like the "pressure is needed" answers or the "show me" answers are never always right. With aplogies to the "Never say Always but Never say Never" saying.

Cheers


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Awful lot of internet dogs have been trained with direct and indirect pressure methods. Unfortunately I don't train internet dogs, I'm stuck training those silly old hounds on my trailer, mostly in the rain. These theories make great internet debate but unfortunately I have to train the dog currently out in front of me and lord knows they don't respond nearly as well as internet dogs. When to use direct pressure and indirect pressure, clearly its the same always for internet dogs. 

/Paul


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Hey Chopper Fixer,
> 
> I thought you have some good points about Indirect Pressure although I didn't agree with all you said. The fraility of the Internet exchanges kept me from responding to some subtle points.
> 
> ...


 I greatly appreciate your response. 
And I was not trying to suggest that once in advanced training a dog will never need correction for fundamental short comings.

Neither the Trainer, nor the dog is perfect.

For instance, I know that I have created problems through indirect pressure, that resulted in the dog popping on scent.
It wasn't intentional, and it wasn't that the dog did not have a solid set of basics.

It was a case of my unknowingly applying indirect pressure, to the wrong thing. 
Not in my head. In the dog's head.

I dropped a pretty big ball.

So, I think that it's extremely important for trainers to understand that even when they are trying to apply direct pressure, they are also applying indirect pressure to something else at the same time. Whether they like it or not. 

And that indirect pressure, that they don't always realize they are applying, can most definitely lead to fundamental failures with the go/stop/come standard that was established in basics.

But, again that shouldn't have happened. If it does, there was a screw-up somewhere.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I am with Dennis, I agree with alot of what Copter doc says but it sounds to much a regimented thought process. I am also curious , are you a pro? do you hunt test? have you trained 1 dog or 100? Hunt?
I really like it when I take advice from people that have shown me credibility....


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I am with Dennis, I agree with alot of what Copter doc says but it sounds to much a regimented thought process. I am also curious , are you a pro? do you hunt test? have you trained 1 dog or 100? Hunt?
> I really like it when I take advice from people that have shown me credibility....


 I'm not selling you anything.

Either my advice is good, or it isn't. 
You can take it or leave it.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Oh, believe me, I know that, gets tough when Joe Newbie does not know what is good and what is bad. Don't forget that I agree with much of what you say........... I sooo dislike anonymity, why do people do that?


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I sooo dislike anonymity, why do people do that?


 Mostly because I like to play dog games, and a lot of people that are involved in those dog games can be pretty mean. 
And they also have misunderstood a lot of what I have typed on this forum.

Knowing your name, doesn't mean that I know you. 
I only know the people that I know. Their name has nothing to do with it.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Sometime things in spite of having what appears to be a sound theoretical basis in the abstract, prove to be somewhat lacking when they are attempted to be used in a practical application......

john


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Oh, believe me, I know that, gets tough when Joe Newbie does not know what is good and what is bad. Don't forget that I agree with much of what you say........... I sooo dislike anonymity, why do people do that?


Bridget - if you do a search, you can see that others before you (myself included) have asked Chopper Fixer about his background, and he never tells us. He has been gone for awhile, but he is back, quoting TRT, which I agree with..... except for the holes in his application. I just don't comment any more. 

I find that most dog people are pretty kind when you get to know them. Except if they treat their dogs badly, they usually do it to humans also.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

john fallon said:


> Sometime things in spite of having what appears to be a sound theoretical basis in the abstract, prove to be somewhat lacking when they are attempted to be used in a practical application......
> 
> john


That's true.

Proper application, has a lot to do with training. 
Talk-the-talk, vs walk-the-walk.

It's tough to walk on an internet forum.


----------



## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

*My friend you are all hat and no cattle.*



copterdoc said:


> Mostly because I like to play dog games, and a lot of people that are involved in those dog games can be pretty mean.
> And they also have misunderstood a lot of what I have typed on this forum.
> 
> Knowing your name, doesn't mean that I know you.
> I only know the people that I know. Their name has nothing to do with it.


My Friend you are all hat and no cattle.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> *Mostly because I like to play dog games, and a lot of people that are involved in those dog games can be pretty mean.
> And they also have misunderstood a lot of what I have typed on this forum.*Knowing your name, doesn't mean that I know you.
> I only know the people that I know. Their name has nothing to do with it.



I never let that bother me;-).........

john


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

AHHH YES which is why I ask WHAT have you done in real life?


copterdoc said:


> That's true.
> 
> Proper application, has a lot to do with training.
> Talk-the-talk, vs walk-the-walk.
> ...


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

john fallon said:


> I never let that bother me;-).........
> 
> john


 I've noticed.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Susan I am working with one of your grandbabies....a yellow pup from D&S, last years litter. Smart little devil , that had NO foundation from the owner.... Really a pleasure working with him...
Thanks for the heads up about wasted breath....


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Copterdoc,

You have been asked a straightforward question and I personally think it warrants a straightforward response.

Nobody accused you of selling anything.

You have been very quick to offer extremely black and white advice and opinions on a regular basis. 

Most recently you asked about a percentage of dogs that fit outside the black and white that you post. 

If it was your one and only dog, that you were training for the first time, and you would not have another for 10 years or more, and it was part of that small percentage - you'd feel pretty bummed if you followed the black and white only to mess up your dog.

Please answer the question. If you are so willing and ready to dish out your own answers to the inquiries about the program that's produced more NFC titled dogs than any other, why not equally readily answer the inquiry about your credentials?

How many dogs have you trained? To what level have you trained them?

Thanks, Chris Atkinson

GMHR WR Champus Maximus
GMHR WR Coolhand Lucas Maximus HRCH (three legs) 
WR Scotlands Merry Maili
WR Happy Hamish gone Hunting

**************** All Amish Dogs above the line **************
Northstars Mainstreet Ticket - Qualified All Age. A few minor stakes ribbons. Made it to the Water Blind in an All Age stake. Entered a few other All Age stakes and licked our wounds and had fun.... Trained as close as I could to Mike Lardy's TRT and TRM materials and workshop.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Copterdoc,
> 
> You have been asked a straightforward question and I personally think it warrants a straightforward response.


 You're right. It does.

I haven't trained any dogs to any level.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> You're right. It does.
> 
> I haven't trained any dogs to any level.


I think that's not true.

I don't understand why you want to post with such a cloak around what you do, but post so openly about your understanding of the training theory.

I do think folks will buy in more, if they understand who you are and what you've done.

Chris


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Who are you? Who, who, who, who, we really want to know.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Susan I am working with one of your grandbabies....a yellow pup from D&S, last years litter. Smart little devil , that had NO foundation from the owner.... Really a pleasure working with him...
> Thanks for the heads up about wasted breath....


 Good to hear Bridget! If you could never sneak me any pictures I'd appreciate it! I love to see what they look like when they get a little older.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I think that's not true.
> 
> I don't understand why you want to post with such a cloak around what you do, but post so openly about your understanding of the training theory.
> 
> ...


 No, it really is true.

I love training dogs. 
But, I seriously do not believe that I have ever trained one to any level.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Sort of reminds me of this song. 

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=UE6iAjEv9dQ&desktop_uri=/watch?v=UE6iAjEv9dQ

I could be wrong...


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

OK doc, Pls post some videos of you training your dogs.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Wayne Nutt said:


> OK doc, Pls post some videos of you training your dogs.


 If I had some videos, I would post them.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Wow I guess the MH/HRCH that you PM'd me about is all in your dreams. I don't appreciate being toyed with ....and I despise being lied to, my Daddy taught me that.....you know what they say ... put up or shut up.....


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Susan I will send you a pic Friday, I have a vet appt with 4 dogs for hearing tomorrow, 3 hrs away....


----------



## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

Not wanting to get into any arguments about who has done what. For years now I have been a member of this forum and have learned a lot and people have been very helpful. However, whenever I have tried to look at profiles to see what the credentials might be I come up most times with a blank. Chris is there any way this can be addressed for those of us who do not reside in the USA or Canada? Perhaps this should be the subject of another thread?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

The bullshit ends when you walk to the line, either in training or testing. I know some very good trainers who don't run FT or HT. However in my experience an awful lot gets answered when you watch them in training on the mat. its easy to talk theories, methods, principles, practices etc, however applying them standing on the mat changes everything. Lord knows the times I wish I could go back to the holding blind and start over...

/Paul


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm working on an internet FC.


----------



## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

copterdoc said:


> I'm working on an internet FC.


That maybe your most honest and straight forward post yet.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Rnd said:


> That maybe your most honest and straight forward post yet.


If nothing else, I am honest.


----------



## h2ok-9 (Feb 4, 2013)

How did indirect pressure turn into this drama?


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I seem to recall that chopper fixer is an HRC guy?7


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

h2ok-9 said:


> How did indirect pressure turn into this drama?


 Are you qualified to ask that?


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

A thread like this is when I miss the spice girls. Angie and Feloni. They could straighten this out.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> I find that most dog people are pretty kind when you get to know them. *Except if they treat their dogs badly, they usually do it to humans also.*


 Tell me what you mean by that.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

_







Originally Posted by *JusticeDog* 
I find that most dog people are pretty kind when you get to know them. *Except if they treat their dogs badly, they usually do it to humans also.*



Tell me what you mean by that.

_



I know what you meant by that. And it's not fair.

You have never met me, but you've already judged me. 

Not by what you've personally witnessed occur between myself and my dogs. 
But rather based on what you have misinterpreted from my posts.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Copterdoc has posted some things that some of us do not agree with....He has posted anonymously, but the last time I checked he was well within his rights to do so.
Perhaps a better course of action for those who disagree with his posted information, is to logically rebut the points we find fault with rather than to present NO counter points and to simply attack the poster.

That way those who are trying to learn can read and compare the information and assign a value to it, based on what they know about the poster.

john


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW! You are really paranoid. You're the one that judged dog people, stating they can be "mean" 



copterdoc said:


> Mostly because *I like to play dog games, and a lot of people that are involved in those dog games can be pretty mean*.
> And they also have misunderstood a lot of what I have typed on this forum.
> 
> Knowing your name, doesn't mean that I know you.
> I only know the people that I know. Their name has nothing to do with it.


And you have the nerve to say I've pre-judged you? When in fact, you're the one that has pre-judged people on RTF.... to the point you can't even tell them who you are. I was merely stating that MY experience with dog people has been the opposite of yours. I have always found that people who can be mean to animals are mean to humans as well. Perhaps if you were more honest about who you are and what you know, you would get a more positive response. 

I think Kip has it right... 


kip said:


> My Friend you are all hat and no cattle.


And, if it's one thing Kip knows, it's cattle (and dogs). 

#NoBullRegards-


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

John, I don't have a dog in this fight, if you will pardon the phrase. And I am not arguing with you. 

However, I used TRT over the other programs for several reasons. Recommendations from trusted friends in the game, availability of the written materials, production value, etc. But the biggest reason by far is that I was able to verify that Mike Lardy makes a habit out of training FC level dogs. If he can repeat that, then I have to believe he knows what he is talking about. 

If I don't know what level of training copterdoc has gotten to, i feel like it is impossible for me as a new trainer to do anything but ignore his advice. Not because I think he is wrong, but because I have no credible way of evaluating him. 

I would not expect many folks on this forum to listen to me about very much because I am training my first dog and I have never stepped to the line in a test or a trial. That doesn't mean I am wrong; it just means I can't say "I have been there and done that." I have pointed this out myself in several posts, so people can judge for themselves how much weight to give my posts as opposed to yours or someone else's who has a lot more experience than me. 

I think all you can ask is for someone to present their bona fides so people can judge 
how much stock to put in their statements.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> ....When in fact, you're the one that has pre-judged people on RTF.... to the point you can't even tell them who you are. .......


 It really, really, really, does not matter who I am.

It doesn't effect a thing for you, or anybody else on this forum.

I don't care if you think that I am all hat and no cattle. 
That doesn't bother me.

Pride and vanity has nothing to do with this.

Knowing my name, doesn't mean that you know me. 
There is a reason that internet forums are usually anonymous.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> It really, really, really, does not matter who I am.
> 
> It doesn't effect a thing for you, or anybody else on this forum.
> 
> ...


Actually, I do know who you are. Not that it matters. I figured it out the last time you came on RTF and pulled this B.S. 

It matters if you're trying to give advice to newbies and it causes issues for their dogs. 

Everything on the internet is true, don't you know..... 


My boyfriend is a french model regards -


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> Actually, I do know who you are. Not that it matters. I figured it out the last time you came on RTF and pulled this B.S. Have a good night.


Okay then.

I still don't know who you are. 
I know your name. I don't know you.


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Wow, just checking back in on my thread after a few days. Boy did it ever get high jacked and off topic. Things are going good with my dog thanks to the advise I received in the first couple pages of this thread. Thanks to all with the constructive inputs

Yesterday, I was walking fetch doing fetch nick fetch. He didn't miss a single bumper, I was so pleased. Went to put him in his kennel and realized I had not turned the collar back on after changing the collar strap yesterday afternoon. LOL.....

Got to remember the little things.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I love it when that happens....not so much when it works the other way around  Keep us posted


freezeland said:


> Yesterday, I was walking fetch doing fetch nick fetch. He didn't miss a single bumper, I was so pleased. Went to put him in his kennel and _*realized I had not turned the collar back on after changing the collar strap yesterday afternoon. LOL.....
> *_
> Got to remember the little things.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

freezeland said:


> Wow, just checking back in on my thread after a few days. Boy did it ever get high jacked and off topic. Things are going good with my dog thanks to the advise I received in the first couple pages of this thread. Thanks to all with the constructive inputs
> 
> Yesterday, I was walking fetch doing fetch nick fetch. He didn't miss a single bumper,* I was so pleased. *Went to put him in his kennel and realized I had not turned the collar back on after changing the collar strap yesterday afternoon. LOL.....
> 
> Got to remember the little things.


And , the dog was too...he got through the session with out a single nick ....they need to have days like that once in awhile....But ,I know how you feel when you discover the mistake...Steve S


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Guys and Gals,

I take responsibility for derailing this thread.

Copterdoc, I apologize publicly for publicly asking you so directly to identify yourself and cite your credentials. 

I acknowledge that I should have done that privately.

John Fallon is absolutely correct on this matter. I was put off by the commentary that if an All Age dog won't stop on a whistle in a poison bird blind scenario at a trial, that the dog's basics were not properly done. I found fault with that commentary and should have focused on the specifics, rather than turning it to Copterdoc's level of experience and accomplishment. 

Again, I apologize to Copterdoc and the rest of you. I crossed the line and will strive to not do so going forward on here.

Where's that mop bucket?


Sincerely,

Chris Atkinson


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Chris, I don't think you derailed the thread. Dennis asked the question that I had been wondering about but could not figure out a tactful way to ask. It started getting off subject before you came on. Never-the-less, the question is still unanswered, I guess.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

john fallon said:


> Copterdoc has posted some things that some of us do not agree with....He has posted anonymously, but the last time I checked he was well within his rights to do so.
> *Perhaps a better course of action for those who disagree with his posted information, is to logically rebut the points we find fault with rather than to present NO counter points and to simply attack the poster.*
> 
> That way those who are trying to learn can read and compare the information and assign a value to it, based on what they know about the poster.
> ...


For those having issues, try this.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Oh I should add be nice. Respect the other persons comments. We don't all have to agree. More than one way to train a dog!


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Chris, one of the major problems is the intellectual gobbledygook and the written communication skills some have, making them appear to be experts. I understand, I suppose, not giving ones name on the forum, but, I couldn't disagree more. I respect the decision. At least with a name one can do much to investigate the poster ie; AKC, HRC, EE entry, etc. The problem you have is misinformation given to those who want information and want it given by the walkers AND talkers who at least have opinions through experience in various venues. No apology needed.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I do not claim to be an expert. 
At all.


----------



## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

john fallon said:


> Copterdoc has posted some things that some of us do not agree with....He has posted anonymously, but the last time I checked he was well within his rights to do so.
> Perhaps a better course of action for those who disagree with his posted information, is to logically rebut the points we find fault with rather than to present NO counter points and to simply attack the poster.
> 
> That way those who are trying to learn can read and compare the information and assign a value to it, based on what they know about the poster.
> ...


+1

Are those who demand "credentials" suggesting that because they have a lot of "experience" they are, therefore, excellent trainers?

Are they suggesting...for example...that someone who might have been an apprentice with..say...Mike Lardy...but who has never trained a single dog under his own hands has no good advice to give?

I FULLY agree with Mr. Fallon that if you don't agree with a piece of advice, then EXPLAIN WHY based on your own background and experience. The readers of the contrary opinion will reach their own conclusions.

Finally, with all due respect to the "experienced" among us who have all sorts of competitive wins/titles to their credit...it is highly likely that the owners of dogs they are willing to spend a LOT of training money on have dogs with exceptional champions in their dog's bloodline and therefore have a built in advantage over the vast majority of hunting dogs which are...well...average by definition.

So, the valid question arises..."Are trainers who have highly proven dogs to their credit better trainers...or did they train better dogs???"

NO disrespect to noted pro trainers. ALL my dogs have had pro training to supplement and guide my own. But I've run into some real clunkers with MAJOR credentials too.

(-:


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Woofer, I sent you a Private message sometime within the past couple days. Will you please read that and let me know?

Thanks, Chris


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I did not apprentice with Mike Lardy either.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> More than one way to train a dog!


while there is definitely more than one way to train a dog, no matter which way someone chooses, they should have a thorough knowledge of it, or be a thorough student of the method before advising others...... otherwise, it's just rhetoric that causes confusion. And, the one that suffers is the dog!


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Mod's - I'm the OP and think its time to lock this thread, its not productive to me anymore.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

freezeland said:


> Mod's - I'm the OP and think its time to lock this thread, its not productive to me anymore.


 You have the ability to delete your own thread.


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

JusticeDog said:


> You have the ability to delete your own thread.


How, I can find no options to do so


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

You can do so by going in the Reply to Thread and find an option to delete.


----------



## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

Steve...you sent me a PM but I don't have enough posts to be allowed to reply to PMs. This and one more...that will follow, should correct that issue and I will reply.

(-:


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Woofer said:


> Steve...you sent me a PM but I don't have enough posts to be allowed to reply to PMs. This and one more...that will follow, should correct that issue and I will reply.
> 
> (-:


No problem ...Steve S use [email protected]


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

freezeland said:


> How, I can find no options to do so


Make a copy if anything you found helpful before you hit delete!


----------



## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

steve schreiner said:


> No problem ...Steve S use [email protected]


Sent you an e-mail.

(-:


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I did not apprentice with Mike Lardy either.


don't you run HRC? I am pretty sure that is what you posted on the Fuge.


----------

