# Lab will retrieve anything but birds NEED advise!



## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

My 8 month old BLF out of an exceptional Pow litter has gone through obedience, FF, collar condition, and started on basic handling. She has never liked birds, and is really struggling with retrieving them. With bumpers she is an all star and has as much drive as any lab I've ever seen. Even forcing to ducks has not been effective thus far. Surely other pros have seen this, what can I do to get her to love ducks? I plan to start hunting her soon and hopefully being in the scenario watching other dogs will spur her competitive nature/drive. 


Bumpers with feathers?
Live birds?


Any advice would be much appreciated, I know this dog has what it takes and hopefully this is just a small hurdle in the road.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Live flapping pigeons, Yea NO hunting yet!!! you have to get the drive up. Have you even intro'd a gun yet?


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

"what can I do to get her to love ducks"
Start them at 8 weeks and get her on LIVE ducks.

Don and Crew


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## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

She is introduced to guns no issues there, pigeons haven't worked very well thus far. Curious as to why a hunting scenario even if she's on a lead and just watching other dogs work wouldn't be beneficial at this point?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Who trained the dog?
What do you think is causing this?

My gut feeling---something happened during training. Figure out what and you can address the issue. 
Did you push this dog a little?


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## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

Ever since she was a puppy she struggled with birds. I didn't exactly have access to pigeons and live ducks when she was a puppy. Not sure if it's the smell, texture, or what but she certainly isn't excited about them. Just looking for some suggestions from some of the experienced trainers on this site and how they have worked through this issue.


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## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

I've got a 4yo BLF that doesn't like ducks either. We haven't had her but just a couple of months. She has a lot of drive and does beautiful work with bumpers, but not birds. Don't think she has had birds for a long time. She has "pro" training when she was young. I was told FF, CC, OB- the basics. I've made some progress but haven't found the magic fix. I've just been going back through hold and FF, using various objects and ducks. Live duck was worse than dead.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Shauntexex said:


> She is introduced to guns no issues there, pigeons haven't worked very well thus far. Curious as to why a hunting scenario even *if she's on a lead and just watching other dogs work wouldn't be beneficial at this point*?



Dogs dont learn that way, they seem to learn bad habits such as excessive bark and other unwanted behavior from untrained dogs...Your dog watching a trained dog in the field is not going to suddenly make the dog learn what to do

Now as to your real problem of not wanting to retrieve birds,its going to be a long drawn out process..You are going to have to convince the dog the bird has more attraction than a bumper...

Start with the basics of teaching the dog to hold a dead duck (pigeons stink and many dogs dont like them)..get the dog to heel while still holding the duck in its mouth...get the dog to sit while holding the duck in its mouth...Once you have taught and convinced the dog that holding that duck results in a reward, and that reward is......retrieving another duck

Until the dog learns that they have to hold and deliver the duck to you which results in praise and excitement, you are battling an uphill battle since it sounds like your dog was NOT introduced to live birds in a proper way, and was glossed over and going right to more bumpers...


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Ever heard the expression; "The juice isn't worth the squeeze."?

You can make a dog do the job. 
It is possible.

But, if the dog doesn't love birds, there is no inherent reward in a Retriever's work. 
And that means that for either you or the dog, the juice isn't going to be worth the squeeze.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Shauntexex

PM sent.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Our Lab didn't want birds until she was 8 months old and then.....look out! She is now over 2 and had 14 Derby pts and Q 4ths, jams so never fear.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Was she Forced on Birds? Fresh and Frozen?


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## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

Thanks for all the input, certainly some valuable information. Yes she has been forced to fresh birds by the way. I've heard that for some dogs it does take a while but once they figure it out it's 180 degree change. I have faith she will come around just struggling with how long it has taken.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

I co-own a dog with my friend (Jesse in my tag line). She didn't pick up a bird until she was 11 months old. Her first bird was a fresh shot Chukar (not a flyer) at 50 yards. Picked it up no problem. Two more at 50 yards, then another at 250 yards. All retrieved to hand with no problems. The next day she retrieved two fresh shot mallards at FT distances and then a live mallard flyer. That afternoon she did two water singles with fresh shot mallards (long entries + short swims), then a mallard flyer with a 100+ yard swim. The next day we started formal basics ala Lardy.

In Lardy's program, the dog should be doing land doubles before starting force work (FTP), and doing water doubles before doing water force (Swim-by). This is not by accident. The dog should be retrieving a memory bird out of desire prior to being forced. 

This patient, and rather frustrating approach work very well for Jesse and she was never forced on birds. She got her MH title around age 3, and finished two of the three Amateur stakes she ran this fall (just over 3 years old).

My recommendation would be to have patience and get her retrieving out of desire.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

golfandhunter said:


> I co-own a dog with my friend (Jesse in my tag line). She didn't pick up a bird until she was 11 months old. Her first bird was a fresh shot Chukar (not a flyer) at 50 yards. Picked it up no problem. Two more at 50 yards, then another at 250 yards. All retrieved to hand with no problems. The next day she retrieved two fresh shot mallards at FT distances and then a live mallard flyer. That afternoon she did two water singles with fresh shot mallards (long entries + short swims), then a mallard flyer with a 100+ yard swim. The next day we started formal basics ala Lardy.
> 
> In Lardy's program, the dog should be doing land doubles before starting force work (FTP), and doing water doubles before doing water force (Swim-by). This is not by accident. The dog should be retrieving a memory bird out of desire prior to being forced.
> 
> ...


Oh, I forgot to mention my friend and co-owner is Glen Guider, amateur, with a real 5 day a week job.
Glen has done all of Jesse's training and trialing in his off time and weekends. So it can be done!!!


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## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

Gregg thanks for the pick me up certainly encouraging and I have heard that from numerous pros/ trainers. It may take some time but when I get her back from the trainer I plan to build back up after FF and will have plenty of fresh birds to work with.


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

Take a duck in the backyard and go play with her. Give her something to be excited about. My youngest freaked at birds after FF and I took her out and swung the duck around really enticed her prey drive.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

This is what i do when dogs come in with good enough desire to retrieve but don't want anything to do with birds.
Start in the house if your dog is a house dog.
Get a wing and start teasing her with it by wisking it in her face and get her to try to engage in a game of tug and if so a game of chase with it also.
When she gets to the point where this is really fun then take it outside. When she thinks this game is fun outside then switch to a bird and engage in tug of war with the dog,The dog always wins the game. When the dog is into it enough start giving it little tosses and throw further and further as the dog gets better
The obedience is simple tore- install once the dog likes picking up the bird.
Before you know it she'll be pissing you off by always trying to steal the birds.

Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

This is what i do when dogs come in with good enough desire to retrieve but don't want anything to do with birds.
Start in the house if your dog is a house dog.
Get a wing and start teasing her with it by wisking it in her face and get her to try to engage in a game of tug and if so a game of chase with it also.
When she gets to the point where this is really fun then take it outside. When she thinks this game is fun outside then switch to a bird and engage in tug of war with the dog,The dog always wins the game. When the dog is into it enough start giving it little tosses and throw further and further as the dog gets better
The obedience is simple to re- install once the dog likes picking up the bird.
Before you know it she'll be pissing you off by always trying to steal the birds.

Pete


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Here's my opinion!

Upland hunt her in a controlled environment...

Dizzy,and plant live birds,, ( I think Chucker works well),,Have someone that can shoot,,shoot for you,, then let her get out,,run the fields,,flush some birds,,and get a retrieve.. Think about the wind,,and make it so the dog gets down wind of where you planted the bird,,so she scents it first,, then goes into hunt mode to find it..

I wouldnt worry about having her sit to flush right now,, just make sure the person who is going to shoot understands the bird has to be up in the skyline..

Also,, if your gunner is good,, have him(Or Her  ) let the bird go ways, so the dog can "Give Chase"

Its Amazing, what happens when their "Light" comes on doing this..


Just sing to yourself,,, :Its all.. about the chase,bout the chase,,No Trouble!"


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

From what I have read so far, the dog was introduced to dead birds early on. 
And it didn't like them.

That's hardly the same thing as a dog that doesn't see a bird until it's 11 months old.

This IS a problem. It really, really, is.

If it was something that is a simple fix, do you really think that somebody that has already had a *PRO *put the dog through basic OB, FF, CC, and started basic handling, would be asking what to do about it?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> Here's my opinion!
> 
> Upland hunt her in a controlled environment...
> 
> ...


 HOLY MOLY~~~ Gooser, exactly something I would say... I love to start young dogs upland ,(especially a softer dog) because it teaches them to hunt, to free think and to use their nose...I would not even remotely think about sit to flush , let her roll....Gotta be absolutely solid on a close gun though......


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I mean think about this dog right now.. Its been through all the pressure and controll of the Yard, Even when marks have been thrown for her its been Plastic,,and she prolly is made to SIT still..

TIME FOR A BREAK!!!!!

Get her some live birds! Let her find out them birds HIDE in a field,, and it makes YOU just GUSH when she finds them.. !! 
Make it a BIG YAHOO moment!!

Its all about the Chase,, bout the Chase,, NO TROUBLE!!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I mean think about this dog right now.. Its been through all the pressure and controll of the Yard, Even when marks have been thrown for her its been Plastic,,and she prolly is made to SIT still..
> 
> TIME FOR A BREAK!!!!!
> 
> ...


right on, gooser! Right on!!!!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I've always believed retrievers come with varying degrees of bird drive (birdyness), and or drive to retrieve. The dogs with the most to work with have both. My first dog was super birdy, but a bit light in the retrieve department. That still worked out. By us making birds a big part of the program. Your dog is just the opposite, lots of retrieve but doesn't like birds. Maybe make birds the only option, no more bumpers just throw birds.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> If it was something that is a simple fix, do you really think that somebody that has already had a *PRO put the dog through basic OB, FF, CC, and started basic handling, would be asking what to do about it*


Yes I do
Make it fun by finding the correct game using feathers ,,take his bumpers way for a while,,,then if he still feels compelled to re-enforce the fetch command with birds when the dog is bird happy. Then great. You'll get a much better response if the dog is bird crazy than you will if he doesn't like birds and it will be easier on your brain,,,may be this dog should have been made bird crazy first before FF or better yet introduced as a puppy.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I have two questions. First, when was the first time she was introduced to real birds (live or dead)? Secondly, what skills was she working/training on during that time frame?


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Yeah if that dog has already seen extensive amounts of pressure for bumpers and its as advanced as you say it is through basics, this dogs need FUN TIME on birds. Forget all the control stuff and let that dog break and acted a fool about birds, do what ever it takes. Start with water, splash a bird and see what she does. They usually will at least tow it back to the shore, thats a start. Stake her out while throwing live birds for other dogs, try to get her high and then let her go. Throw the healing stick and transmitter in the truck and start letting that dog enjoy birds more than anything. Ive had 1 to 1.5 old dogs brought to me that haven't ever seen a bird and its frustrating but only the owners fault not the dogs. You are going to have to take off your white coat off and put on your cheerleader outfit. DO NOT FORCE TO A BIRD UNTIL THE DOG IS CRAZY ABOUT BIRDS!!!


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> From what I have read so far, the dog was introduced to dead birds early on.
> And it didn't like them.
> 
> *That's hardly the same thing as a dog that doesn't see a bird until it's 11 months old.
> ...





golfandhunter said:


> *I co-own a dog with my friend (Jesse in my tag line). She didn't pick up a bird until she was 11 months old.* Her first bird was a fresh shot Chukar (not a flyer) at 50 yards. Picked it up no problem. Two more at 50 yards, then another at 250 yards. All retrieved to hand with no problems. The next day she retrieved two fresh shot mallards at FT distances and then a live mallard flyer. That afternoon she did two water singles with fresh shot mallards (long entries + short swims), then a mallard flyer with a 100+ yard swim. The next day we started formal basics ala Lardy.
> 
> In Lardy's program, the dog should be doing land doubles before starting force work (FTP), and doing water doubles before doing water force (Swim-by). This is not by accident. The dog should be retrieving a memory bird out of desire prior to being forced.
> 
> ...


I have to assume your post us referring to my dog. 

I'm not exactly sure how you came to the conclusion that Jesse never saw birds before 11 months old. Quiet the contrary. She saw plenty but just wouldn't retrieve them. And it was certainly not an easy fix. It was also not a fix that a pro could achieve (without neglecting the other dogs on the truck). It took a ton of patience and about 4 months (glen took her at 7 months old after JVE sent her home).

I'm really not sure how you can say, with absolute certainty, that this is a dog that should be given up on without haven seen the dog. Jesse had great prey drive for butterflies, squirrels, mice, etc., just not birds. She was also very honest in the water and a very accurate marker with bumpers (once we got her retrieving bumpers). She was also very well bred and a beautiful, well put together bitch. There were too many positives to just give up on her. And the patience has paid off in spades.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

golfandhunter said:


> I have to assume your post us referring to my dog.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure how you came to the conclusion that Jesse never saw birds before 11 months old.....


 Well, I actually read your post.

It's not my fault that you didn't actually write what you meant to say.



golfandhunter said:


> I co-own a dog with my friend (Jesse in my tag line). She didn't pick up a bird until she was 11 months old. *Her first bird* was a fresh shot Chukar (not a flyer) at 50 yards.


And I didn't say that the dog should be given up on. 
I said that the dog needs to love birds, or everything else is all for naught.

It's sort of like reading comprehension. It is really important. 
It makes all the difference.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

copterdoc said:


> This IS a problem. It really, really, is.
> 
> ?


This IS NOT yet a problem with this 8 mo old puppy!!
Treating it as if it is aready a problem could help make it a problem

Go read some more theory and stay away from the keyboard until you UNDERSTAND dogs


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

I had a well bred lab who came for training and didn't like birds.....he liked bumpers and toys but not birds.....I took away his toys(that owner insisted he needed) and bumpers. teased him with live birds for a few weeks until it started to click. After that i put a hen duck in a bird crate, put him and the crate in the airing yard and he went nusted cause he couldn't get to it....careful on any kind of force until he gets it...forcing probably will hurt your issue....Randy


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

A clipped wing bird that can run but not fly....a tethered bird that you can play keep-away with...even just some freeze dried wings zip-tied to a bumper so the dog gets used to the feel of feathers can work to start with. The main thing is to make it a big party with no rules. No pressure. Just prey drive, chase and have fun. Sometimes it helps to have another dog that likes birds there for support (and competition  )


I was given a very nice young dog with some decent training not long ago because it would retrieve everything BUT birds and the owner just wanted the dog gone because he couldn't get it to pick up birds. Didn't take more than a few minutes of teasing with a live pigeon to get the dog excited, and half an hour later he was retrieving them just fine. I sold him not long after that and he has turned out to be a very nice gun dog for his new owners.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

mjh345 said:


> This IS NOT yet a problem with this 8 mo old puppy!!
> Treating it as if it is aready a problem could help make it a problem
> 
> Go read some more theory and stay away from the keyboard until you UNDERSTAND dogs


 It is a problem that the dog has been through basic OB, FF, CC, and started on basic handling, and STILL doesn't like birds.

Yes, that is most certainly a problem. 
Whether the dog is 8 months old, or 8 years old.


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

copterdoc said:


> It is a problem that the dog has been through basic OB, FF, CC, and started on basic handling, and STILL doesn't like birds.
> 
> Yes, that is most certainly a problem.
> Whether the dog is 8 months old, or 8 years old.


, a real problem at 8 years old......11 month. Not so much....I'll bet it can be worked out with several of the suggestions given


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## markvan (Aug 15, 2013)

I would get hen pheasants pull the flight feathers and let pup chase/ catch , no control no rules for pup just have FUN with feathers !!!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

John Condon said:


> , a real problem at 8 years old......11 month. Not so much....I'll bet it can be worked out with several of the suggestions given


 The SAME amount of problem.


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

copterdoc said:


> The SAME amount of problem.


we will have to agree to disagree.....8 month old isn't even nearly developed yet, mentally or physically. How could that be the same


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

John Condon said:


> ....8 month old isn't even nearly developed yet, mentally or physically......


 Then how on Earth, could such a dog have possibly advanced this far in The Yard?

You can't push a dog that fast, with no bird drive/reward. 
There will always be repercussions. 

And they can't always be papered over later on.

The dog's age is irrelevant. It's training is way out of balance.
There's nothing in it for the dog.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Then how on Earth, could such a dog have possibly advanced this far in The Yard?
> 
> You can't push a dog that fast, with no bird drive/reward.
> There will always be repercussions.
> ...


So, other than trying to discourage the owner from trying to continue with this dog, and saying the dog's training is out of balance, what would you do with this dog. It is what it is. What's next?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

golfandhunter said:


> So, other than trying to discourage the owner from trying to continue with this dog, and saying the dog's training is out of balance, what would you do with this dog. It is what it is. What's next?


 The simple answer is that nothing else matters, until the dog loves birds.

Advancing the dog in the Yard isn't going to help. That's not what the dog needs at this point in training. 

No matter how much Yardwork advancement may boost the owner's opinion of the dog, it's actually hurting more than it's helping. Right now.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> The simple answer is that nothing else matters, until the dog loves birds.
> 
> Advancing the dog in the Yard isn't going to help. That's not what the dog needs at this point in training.
> 
> No matter how much Yardwork advancement may boost the owner's opinion of the dog, it's actually hurting more than it's helping. Right now.


How would you go about this?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

golfandhunter said:


> How would you go about this?


 Methods don't matter.

There's 1,000 different ways to accomplish the goal. And a whole bunch of proven methods have already been outlined in this thread.

But, none of that will ultimately make a difference. 
Because, dogs aren't trained by methods. They are trained by Trainers.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Methods don't matter.
> 
> There's 1,000 different ways to accomplish the goal. And a whole bunch of proven methods have already been outlined in this thread.
> 
> ...


So the OP should get rid of the dog and not get another. Good Advice CD.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

golfandhunter said:


> So the OP should get rid of the dog and not get another. Good Advice CD.


 Apparently, we still need to work on that reading comprehension thing.

Here's a link that should help get you started on the right path. http://www.ereadingworksheets.com/e-reading-worksheets/online-reading-tests/


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> Ever heard the expression; "The juice isn't worth the squeeze."?
> 
> You can make a dog do the job.
> It is possible.
> ...


I guess I'm having trouble comprehending here.

Copterdoc, What do you mean by mentioning the expression? 

My comprehension of this post was that you were stating that training this dog is not going to be worth it. Did I comprehend incorrectly?

Please specify what this means. How is it helpful to the original poster? What specifically should the person asking for help take away from this post? What actions do you expect him to do with this suggestion?

Please help me comprehend.

Sincere thanks,

Chris


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> ....Copterdoc, What do you mean by mentioning the expression?


 That while it is possible to gain compliance, the results will not be worth the effort. 



Chris Atkinson said:


> ....My comprehension of this post was that you were stating that training this dog is not going to be worth it. Did I comprehend incorrectly?


 I do not feel that further training is going to be "worth it", as long as the dog continues to not be interested in birds. No matter how successful the OP is in coercing the dog to retrieve them.



Chris Atkinson said:


> ....Please specify what this means. How is it helpful to the original poster? What specifically should the person asking for help take away from this post? What actions do you expect him to do with this suggestion?....


 He doesn't need to be given actions, or methods. He needs to understand the real issue.

That just because you are succeeding in making a dog do something, doesn't mean that you are actually making progress in it's training.


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

copterdoc said:


> That while it is possible to gain compliance, the results will not be worth the effort.
> 
> I do not feel that further training is going to be "worth it", as long as the dog continues to not be interested in birds. No matter how successful the OP is in coercing the dog to retrieve them.
> 
> ...


Succeeding......not making progress .....I'm reading but no comprehendo.....


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

John Condon said:


> Succeeding......not making progress .....I'm reading but no comprehendo.....


 "Training that enhances one aspect of training, diminishes another. Almost always."

Who said it?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> "Training that enhances one aspect of training, diminishes another. Almost always."
> 
> Who said it?


Copterdoc just made my point!!

The DOG is only 8 months old for crips sake! It has only seen training with pressure (Yard work) and during that time was only FORCED on dead birds that didnt go so well......

TIME FOR A CHANGE,, and quit focusing on that ONE aspect of training.... That being FORCE!!!

Time to let the dog be a dog for awhile.... Have some really great fun chasing and finding live birds,, and when the dog is successfull... a LOT of PRAISE

Time to focus on a different aspect!!

Thanks Doc!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And..... IMHO,, that guy that siad that isnt always right in ALL cases!!!

Things depend on the dog and everything that has happened to that particular dog!!

Blanket statements dont work in dog training... 

Goosers dumb arse Opinion!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> "Training that enhances one aspect of training, diminishes another. Almost always."
> 
> Who said it?


Well Rex routinely said such things. But he also wouldn't pass judgment on an internet description of a dog. He'd look at the dog not what the owner said! 

I suspect this dog could be turned around with two ideal hunts or 3 ideal training exposures. 

Once these dogs with "blood" see the sun rise they live for the next day. Maybe this dog has never seen the sun rise!!

I sure can't tell and pass "wash-out" judgment!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Shauntexex said:


> Gregg thanks for the pick me up certainly encouraging and I have heard that from numerous pros/ trainers. * It may take some time but when I get her back from the trainer* I plan to build back up after FF and will have plenty of fresh birds to work with.


Ya'lls just being punked.

Here we got a pup being trained by a pro, and the OP is not trusting the pro?

Are y'all going to do better?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Well Rex routinely said such things..............


 Oh come on!!!!!!

I figured you, of ALL the people on this board, would do better than that!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Thank you Copterdoc.

I guess we all are likely to take on beliefs based upon what we have experienced ourselves. 

I sent a private message to the original poster after the "not worth the squeeze" post was made.

I sent my telephone number. And do the original poster, you are free to call me at that number if you want. 

I had a dog, my first one that I got on my own after I got out of school, who at up to a year old, was not all that interested in birds. He turned out to be worth the squeeze for me. He was a NAHRA GMHR and qualified in a NAHRA invitational. He was a respectable hunting dog. He made me happy.

Just because an 8 month old dog doesn't get turned on by birds, does not automatically mean that he's not going to be worth further effort. It also doesn't mean that one has to "force" birds upon the dog.

Sometimes the "I don't care at all" approach works great. I had very good luck putting a few live birds in a cage, in an area where this dog aired daily. I did not act like I cared one bit whether he wanted the birds or not. I just stayed back and occasionally observed how he reacted. After a while, casual interest grew into smashing his face against the cage bars and tring to get inside the cage. 

I intentionally waited a long time and let him really want those live birds. 

I had steps beyond that which I won't detail. As Copterdoc mentions, there are thousands of ways to go about the steps.

But sometimes we need to open our minds and not get locked into the mindset that we have to MAKE a dog do anything. Some of the best things our dogs do, they do simply because they want to.

Just because an 8 month old doesn't want to today, doesn't mean it won't be worth the squeeze at 18 months, or sometime in the future.



Chris


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> .....Sometimes the "I don't care at all" approach works great.....


 You know, I think that more often than not, "not caring" is exactly what the Trainer needs to do in these situations.

It's hard to put this into words, but relinquishing control is often a very hard thing for a Trainer to do. 
And for some (most?) it only happens after they have given up on the dog.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> You know, I think that more often than not, "not caring" is exactly what the Trainer needs to do in these situations.
> 
> It's hard to put this into words, but relinquishing control is often a very hard thing for a Trainer to do.
> And for some (most?) it only happens after they have given up on the dog.


In the particular case of the dog I mentioned, I cared a lot. But I did not show the dog that I cared about whether or not he had any interest in those caged birds in the back yard. 

I think that smart trainers set dogs up to do what they want, on a regular basis. I think we still need to "care" in the sense that we have to read what's going on, know what we desire for the dog to do, and then set up the appropriate circumstances and environment to allow the dog to do things that advance the program.

In this particular dog's case, it could simply be letting the dog have open exposure to live birds in an unthreatening setting where the dog feels totally under control and totally free to get as close as he chooses, when he chooses.

I think there's a good chance that this dog can "click" and see the light.

Chris


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Oh come on!!!!!!
> 
> I figured you, of ALL the people on this board, would do better than that!


Oh come on Chopper Fixer!

Yes I know Lardy says this but I like to go back to the source that said it first!!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Oh come on Chopper Fixer!
> 
> Yes I know Lardy says this but I like to go back to the source that said it first!!


 #4 Principles of Training.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> #4 Principles of Training.



You mean #3?

Like I said, I like to give credit to originators. Mike and I are the first to acknowledge that very little is truly original. I was hesitant to take any credit or give it to Mike or myself.

The Training Principles and Guidelines below that you refer to should never be taken out of context or taken in a vacuum. 

But thanks for identifying an important idea. 

On the Internet, I still cannot determine whether the dog in question has a genetic or man-made problem or even if the sun has risen for this dog yet!
*Training Principles and Guidelines*​*1. Respect and care for your dog is a primary consideration.*-Proper care, diet, exercise and watering regimes affect response to training and stress.-Proper nutrition and conditioning reduce injury, improve concentration and health. -Violence is never acceptable, so confront your dog’s weaknesses - not your dog!
*2. Effectiveness of training is due to overall approach.*-Results depend on methods, time, effort, efficiency, grounds, equipment and help.-Use a proven sequential program as a basis for advanced work-Be prepared for variables of tests, environments, and dog behaviour 
*3. Work to achieve balance in training. *
-Training that enhances one aspect of training almost always diminishes another. 
-Remember to maintain the ABCs; Attitude, Balance, and Control.
-For success, seek the all-around balanced dog with sound fundamentals 

*4.Emphasize communication and teamwork-training retrievers is a “team sport.”*
-Consistency in commands and cues will lead to better communication 
-Communicate that a decision was wrong at the instant the dog makes the decision.
-Always ask, “Does my dog know and understand what I want?”

*5. Establish and Maintain Standards.*
-Dogs deserve and thrive on consistent rules.-It is better to reduce the level of difficulty of the task than to reduce the standard 
-Avoid habits that will have to be changed later.

*6. Don’t teach with the e-collar*
-Attrition is a safe and first consideration tool.
-Use the collar to enforce the command after the dog has been taught.
-Always give a command before a correction.

*7. The approach to using pressure is a critical aspect of training.*
- Dogs can tolerate and even thrive with only reasonable amounts of pressure 
- The dog should be capable of giving the correct response after the proper correction. 
- Correct for a lack of effort not just a flawed decision.

*8. Seek success more than failure*
-Praise success wisely- at the instant of doing well
-Be sure to teach before you test
-Simplify after repeated failure

*9. Match the training to the nature of the dog*
-Strive to make the dog the best he can be but not more.
-Recognize a dog’s strength and weaknesses and train accordingly
-Basics and fundamentals don’t change but implementation may

*10. Dog training is an art as well as a science-it involves communication, analysis and interpretation. *
-Learn to read your dog and respond to what you see.
-If the dog has a problem ask if and how you caused it
-Exact methods may not be as important as the overall approach.


*These Principles and Guidelines are derived from Total Retriever Training and Retrievers ONLINE*

*©-Mike Lardy and Dennis Voigt*​


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> You mean #3?


Nope.

The online version isn't updated.

The TRT original, and also the newer revised edition has it at #4.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> ....The Training Principles and Guidelines below that you refer to should never be taken out of context or taken in a vacuum.


 No doubt.

However, I feel that in this particular instance, working to maintain a balance in training, has been ignored for far too long. 

Sure, the dog is progressing through the Yard. 
But, to what end?

All of that control, pressure conditioning, and structure doesn't matter one tiny bit. 
The dog still has no interest in it's very reason for existence.

In fact, the very things that have been established and enforced thus far in the Yard, do nothing but discourage the dog's willingness to become more outgoing and even "aggressive" in the face of uncertainty.

If you want the dog to learn how to "let loose" you need to be able to LET GO.


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## nailbender (Jan 23, 2014)

I don't post much in this part of the forum as I feel I have little to offer. I'm glad to see this thread turn from the direction it appeared to be headed. For some of us washing out a dog is not an option and all ideas are welcome. I clicked this thread because I was late to the game in many regards on choosing and training a pup. 
My Chessie just brought me our ( hers and mine) first duck a couple weeks ago. She carried it by the foot after a couple unsuccessful attempts to do so by the beak. I couldn't have been happier. Was it ideal, no but for us it was a huge step in the right direction and a sign we will get where I want to go.
It is my observation that part of the draw to training dogs is their unpredictability and our desire to problem solve and obtain goals. My buddy told me when he got his first pup he was ready to get rid of her after a year, she's 13 now and has spent some of the best times of their lives bringing him birds.


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## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

MooseGooser said:


> Copterdoc just made my point!!
> 
> The DOG is only 8 months old for crips sake! It has only seen training with pressure (Yard work) and during that time was only FORCED on dead birds that didnt go so well......
> 
> ...


Great advice and thanks for all of your input, live pigeons, live phesant and time to have some fun. I have ZERO doubt she will pull through and being hunting season she will be around plenty of birds. Really appreciate all the positive comments great group of ppl on this forum...


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I haven't read the entire thread. But, think, there are dogs that do not automatically like birds. Birdiness is not created by force.
If it helps you, OP...we had a dog that would just turn up her nose at dead birds. So, we just didn't throw them for her.

Came the day, when we took her to Kippy's. He shot a whole bunch of fliers for her, one right after the other.
That did it.
Another trick is to tie a rope around dead bird. Throw it. When dog goes to pounce it, jerk the bird away. Keep doing that. Dog may grab it, to keep it from getting away.

That same dog became an AFC. Lacked the win for her FC. Qualified for 2 nationals.
Loving birds is something we usually don't worry much about. Almost all end up doing so. Just the timing may not be the same.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

What I see in this thread is how important puppy training is in a dog development. The old thought was that you would throw down a clip wing at 12 weeks and if the dog did not go right in, get a new dog. All that has changed with the times. Now most feel like, in some cases you can build the confidence through a slow introduction and play ( letting them be puppies and go and find birds)

Now that the OP has put the cart before the horse it's going to be a project. Take you time, if the training that you have already done starts coming unraveled don,t get frustrated and mad. It will happen. Buy a good puppy video and stat there.

This a learning experience for the OP and one they will take to their next dog.

Good luck.

Keith


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Shauntexex, There has been some really good {& bad} advice given to you; it appears that you are wise enough to separate the wheat from the chaff as far as the varying advice you have been given. 
I would be willing to give you, Copterdoc or anyone pretty good odds that a pup with your pups breeding is one day going to be bird crazy. That day may be today, tomorrow or some day down the road.
Don't despair, it will happen. 
Also, where are you located?
That can help us to possibly identify and refer you to possible sources to assist to turn the fire on in this pup.

Good luck and enjoy the journey


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

copterdoc said:


> That while it is possible to gain compliance, the results will not be worth the effort.
> 
> I do not feel that further training is going to be "worth it", as long as the dog continues to not be interested in birds. No matter how successful the OP is in coercing the dog to retrieve them.
> 
> ...


I'm betting there is a forum for helicopters somewhere that desperately needs your input


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## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

Thanks for all the input, sorry I have been out of pocket the last few days. I'm located in Dallas and will respond to all
the PMs tonight. I plan on joining a retriever club around the area and meeting some of y'all soon.


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## Shauntexex (Feb 10, 2014)

kcrumpy9 said:


> Take a duck in the backyard and go play with her. Give her something to be excited about. My youngest freaked at birds after FF and I took her out and swung the duck around really enticed her prey drive.



Sure enough I went back to the basics dog in the backyard after getting her back home. Tried a wing no luck tried again with a treat in hand she brought I back to hand heeled and held onto it. After praise and a treat she brought it back to hand another 10 times. Moved onto the duck first try she sniffed and turned around, second try she had it! Praise, treat and wouldn't you know it she retrieved another 15 times bird to hand in the heel position. I'm building her up after force fetch and making it fun again, and she is responding incredibly well. Thanks again for all the advice much appreciated!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I think that's great but not so many times.


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