# advanced wagon wheels



## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

where is the point where wagon wheels create more problems than they solve????
i have done triple decker wagon wheels over the years using varying colored bummer patterns and i have finally come to the conclusion that for advanced dogs the spokes need to be 35m out and 3 or 4 m apart
yes my dogs can do it tighter but i really question what anyone actually acheives by making the spokes closer
i wont my dogs to recognize a channel and be able to line up reasonably quickly in order to do that
i believe excessive "sweating " of dogs can be detrimental long term to line running i would be interested in the thoughts of others

http://s304.beta.photobucket.com/us...ral/media/20130119112322_zps7592c4dc.mp4.html


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

When the legs get so tight the dog can't understand which one it is being sent for is when the problems start ...some times it is a handler issue as they get tighter too..some people just can't line a dog very well ...and that causes confusion on the dogs part because of the recalls ...The use of a multi ring wheel is the suction of the closer bumpers ...The dog must focus harder the tighter the lines get....Steve S


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

steve my experience is the really good lineing dogs learn to look between bumpers on a multi level wagon wheel and have trouble picking up the close obvious circle.My dogs wont to run between the inner circle irrespective of how many times i pick up the close ones.i have to fiddle at the line a lot more than i would like and i think it becomes detrimental to a dog heeling up and en visualizing a corridor


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Peter,

Are you just using this drill to tune up more accurate initial lines? When I worked for John Hahn (a Rex disciple) he told me about learning WW drills from Judy Aycock. At the time she was training Honcho, and was running a WW lining drill much like the popular 16-bumper lining drill that splits whites to line to orange bumpers like this.








She reportedly split those and extended the principle to a 32 bumper configuration; the outer ring of bumpers past the second tier (orange). I like the principle, but have had few dogs I felt like doing it with was the best idea. I know Honcho was very special.

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

stoney said:


> steve my experience is the really good lineing dogs learn to look between bumpers on a multi level wagon wheel and have trouble picking up the close obvious circle.My dogs wont to run between the inner circle  irrespective of how many times i pick up the close ones.i have to fiddle at the line a lot more than i would like and i think it becomes detrimental to a dog heeling up and en visualizing a corridor


Nicely done. Thanks for posting. I keep all my bumpers the same but I see your reasoning. 
Yes keep it simple until they really latch on and focus. They do get it and are eventually able to do a second row.. Thanks to Steve S we are doing well on the 3rd row but it takes focus and lining.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't see much point in going beyond a 16 bumper wagon wheel drill, like in Evans diagram. When the dog is doing this drill reliably, I think it is time to move on.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Nicely done. Thanks for posting. I keep all my bumpers the same but I see your reasoning.
> Yes keep it simple until they really latch on and focus. They do get it and are eventually able to do a second row.. Thanks to Steve S we are doing well on the 3rd row but it takes focus and lining.


One of the reasons I asked Peter what his goals were for what he's doing, the way he's dong it, is because he's not running this with basic-level dogs. These are FC's that have been to several nationals. Still, WW lining drills are nice spring tune up drills to get line manner issues back in shape, to get the dogs moving more accurately with the handler (right & left), and settling in to initial lines. But Peter is very savvy, and may have other objectives.

There was one 32-bumper drill like this we did at Rex's that involved water for the last tier of blinds. "The advanced Chinese land/water split drill". Quite a name, I know. Like most of his drills, Rex said his clients named most of his drills in order to remember and categorize them. I think I may have a diagram of this one somewhere.

Evan


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

thanks for the input everyone
Evan my goal for wagon wheels are primarily to maintain good initial lines and secondarily to acclimatize my dogs to the tempo and procedure they will encounter in competition,I need my dogs to look out at the line and get a photograph.Excessive pushing and pulling tend to detract from that picture/
as young dogs we went thru the multi split wagon wheel drill that u have diagrammed and then some.i just found that having my dogs constantly running within a few feet either side of white bumpers eventually leads dogs to become procedural , irrespective of how many times i try and balance the ledger by picking up the inner circle 
the reason i set them out at 35m (40yards) is because i wont my dogs to look out and lock in.a dog cannot be photographic if it doesn't lock in and holding a line 40 yards will often give u 80 or more whereas 10 yards often doesnt always guarantee u 20
I do Evans split and chinese drills as well but for a busy amateur wagon wheels are very time efficient 
Mary my dogs already latch on and focus ,for advanced dogs i lengthen the spokes and loosen the angles slightly for the reasons already stated 
the little bitch in the vid is a fargo x pink daughter she is 100% american fargo would be well known to most american field triallers and pink is a daughter of boss lady who is a litter sister to truclass bossco my biggest winning dog and a watermarks the boss son


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I've done 32 bumper 3 tiered wagon wheels. I thought it increased bugginess so I rarely do it now. I mostly limit it to two tiered 16 bumper wagon wheels. I sometimes do a 2 tiered 24 bumper version and with my older dogs. I will do a 32 one now and then like once a year when I think they are getting to independent and I want them to really concentrate on working with me.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> Peter,
> 
> Are you just using this drill to tune up more accurate initial lines? When I worked for John Hahn (a Rex disciple) he told me about learning WW drills from Judy Aycock. At the time she was training Honcho, and was running a WW lining drill much like the popular 16-bumper lining drill that splits whites to line to orange bumpers like this.
> 
> ...



I don't use a full circle ...I only use half of it but I do split the 2nd ring and add the 3 rd...In my way of picking it up the dog learns to get any ring when ever ask to ...I don't just do a ring ,I mix them up so the dog has to focus, not just run between all the time...It is all about communicating with the dog on the specific line you want ...They are creatures of habit , challenge them to rise to a higher level of performance...You also have to be more precise too...

Stoney,"My dogs want to run between the inner circle irrespective of how many times I pick up the close ones" .. The drill is not about learning to run a corridor ,it's learning to go where sent...It is all about communication ...It does take time to get to a level of great communication and some handlers are better than others at it... What order do you pick them up? Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Howard N said:


> I've done 32 bumper *3 tiered wagon wheels. I thought it increased bugginess *so I rarely do it now. I mostly limit it to two tiered 16 bumper wagon wheels. I sometimes do a 2 tiered 24 bumper version and with my older dogs. I will do a 32 one now and then like once a year when I think they are getting to independent and I want them to really concentrate on working with me.



I believe any drill that causes this issue ( bugginess ) there is too much pressure on the dog ...Real or perceived ( mental ) it is all the same to the dog..Get the dog to relax and enjoy the work ...None thing builds confidence like success, simplify when necessary to get the correct communication across to the dog...Reward success and help when there is failure...This is a no pressure drill...physical any way...A loud NO can be just as detrimental to confidence as a collar...Control the emotions when teaching ... Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> There was one 32-bumper* drill like this we did at Rex's that involved water for the last tier of blinds.* "The advanced Chinese land/water split drill". Quite a name, I know. Like most of his drills, Rex said his clients named most of his drills in order to remember and categorize them. I think I may have a diagram of this one somewhere.
> 
> Evan


The first wagon wheel drill is used to get initial lines ..The drill Evan mentioned here is far more advanced because of factors being added to the mix and encourages a dog to carry the line given......I just do multiple blinds to get this point across...Steve S

Stoney "Excessive pushing and pulling tend to detract from that picture" I agree it does...why are you having this problem? Our goal is to properly sit the dog in such a manner we don't have to fiddle a lot before the send...Could it be you are making the dog doubt it's objective..? Just asking , food for thought ...I'm always self evaluating my actions in regards to good communication with the dog...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Stony,

This side of the globe, I get to see lots and lots of handlers and dogs. I won't comment on the drill itself as I believe you have received a good bit of commentary already from folks. I will comment, however, on your demeanor, style and your dog's.

I was very, very impressed. I really like your efficiency of motion (not a whole lot of extra motion, not a lot of karate chopping with the hand on the send, etc.) I really think that when folks get nice, precise, and consistent on their addressing the dog at the line, it helps to refine the lining and behaviors. I really thought you and your dog both looked very nice together at the line.

I will comment that I've had some "divers" for the bumper over the years and I may have had a chipped tooth from a dog "diving" on a bumper on pavement. I try, when weather allows, to avoid the dog picking up any bumpers off pavement. I envision a golf ball. I don't want to hit a golf ball off pavement, I want to hit it off "padded" ground whenever possible. I like to envision my dog's teeth and mouth like a golf club in this analogy and try to treat the club with a bit more care.

I'm impressed and think I'd enjoy watching an Aus event. Can you share any video of any Aus trials?

Thanks, Chris


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## Flying Dutchman (May 1, 2009)

As someone who has done only an eight bumper wagon wheel so far with my young dog, but is looking ahead to these drills, can I ask a newbie question? All this "efficiency of motion" talk has me thinking. When I have done the wagon wheel drills, I have thought I was teaching the dog to move with me at the line. Thus, when he has returned with the previous bumper, I have had him come to heel facing the direction he just got a bumper from. Then, once he's delivered that bumper, I have "here" or "heeled" him to the next bumper, with the thought that I'm teaching him to pay attention to my movement at the line. 

Should I, instead, be lining myself up for the next bumper as he's returning from the previous, in order to teach him to look where I'm facing? If so, how do I teach him to move when I want him to? Is that a different drill? What if I'm lined up, but he isn't? How do I move him? 

I hope this is not a hijack of this thread. In my mind, it might be a step back in level of sophistication, but my question comes right out of the discussion!

Chad


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> I believe any drill that causes this issue ( bugginess ) there is too much pressure on the dog ...Real or perceived ( mental ) it is all the same to the dog..Get the dog to relax and enjoy the work ...None thing builds confidence like success, simplify when necessary to get the correct communication across to the dog...Reward success and help when there is failure...This is a no pressure drill...physical any way...A loud NO can be just as detrimental to confidence as a collar...Control the emotions when teaching ... Steve S


I use *NO* pressure doing this drill. My dog takes to this WW drill well but he was doing two rings very well before I proceeded! Just a little more challenging for us.  You really have to focus and communicate to your dog and your dog has to be able to focus! No issues doing this! It is winter like weather here so I utilize these drills to the max switching up to different ones to keep things upbeat. Throw in some marks on a different days even PB and longish blinds etc..


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I've done wagon wheel on bare concrete. 
What I learned from that, is to not ever do wagon wheel on bare concrete.

I wish I had pictures of the bloody paw prints.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

stoney said:


> i have done triple decker wagon wheels over the years using varying colored bummer patterns and i have finally come to the conclusion that for advanced dogs the spokes need to be 35m out and 3 or 4 m apart


 I'm a little confused here.

I saw how you set up your wagon wheel in the parking lot. But, you didn't seem to care what color bumper went where. And, your outer set of bumpers, didn't seem to be but a meter or two farther out than the inner set of bumpers.

The way that I was taught, and continue to run the wagon wheel lining drill, is similar to the diagram that Evan posted. The distances are much closer than 35 meters. Even for the "long" ones. And the inner ring is at least 5 meters closer in than the outer ring.

Also, the color of the bumpers plays a critical role in the very purpose of the drill. 
The dog needs to learn to disregard the suction of the white bumpers in the inner ring, punch through them, and pick up an orange bumper from the outer ring.

Now, I don't do a "full" 16 bumper wagon wheel anymore. I chop the "wheel" in half, and run it with 4 orange, and 4 white.
During the drill, I can add suction by returning a white bumper, and lining the dog to an orange just beyond it. Or, I can reduce the amount of suction, by pulling/pushing the dog well away from the bumper just returned.

I can also make it "harder" by using small 2" diameter orange bumpers, with big 3" diameter white ones.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> *I use NO pressure doing this drill.* My dog takes to this WW drill well but he was doing two rings very well before I proceeded! Just a little more challenging for us.  You really have to focus and communicate to your dog and your dog has to be able to focus! No issues doing this! It is winter like weather here so I utilize these drills to the max switching up to different ones to keep things upbeat. Throw in some marks on a different days even PB and longish blinds etc..


Bold added by me.

Mary Lynn, you are kidding yourself if you think the dog isn't feeling any pressure on wagon wheel. With older trained dogs it's pretty nill but not zero. With Q level dogs most will feel some pressure and you can read it sometimes in their face, ears, tail and demeanor.

It doesn't matter whether you think you are adding it or not if they are feeling it. Just a call back adds pressure more with some dogs than others.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Flying Dutchman said:


> ......All this "efficiency of motion" talk has me thinking. When I have done the wagon wheel drills, *I have thought I was teaching the dog to move with me at the line. *Thus, when he has returned with the previous bumper, I have had him come to heel facing the direction he just got a bumper from. Then, once he's delivered that bumper, I have "here" or "heeled" him to the next bumper......
> Chad


That is how I use it as well Dutch. By the end I will do full circles in each direction. My Circles are also close. Close enough that I can take the bumper, toss it back to were it was and heel / here dog to the next bumper I want. And what I want may not be the next in the row or in the same circle. I use 8 per circle, white inside orange outside. I think the full circle is a key part to the drill. Chopped in half it is just a mini / modified 5 – pile lining drill. In my opinion. I was thinking Stoneys use of the lot and half circle and rows on top of each other were to get it all in camera frame. Yes raw paws and broke teeth came come from that setup.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Stony,
> 
> This side of the globe, I get to see lots and lots of handlers and dogs. I won't comment on the drill itself as I believe you have received a good bit of commentary already from folks. I will comment, however, on your demeanor, style and your dog's.
> 
> ...


Chris and copterdoc i think i mentioned at the start of the vid that i dont use concrete i only did on this occasion because the bumpers are easy to see and i could display the dimensions i use. I am interested to hear what length and dimensions other people consider appropriate to maintain all the benefits that wagon wheels can offer


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Howard N said:


> Bold added by me.
> 
> Mary Lynn, you are kidding yourself if you think the dog isn't feeling any pressure on wagon wheel. With older trained dogs it's pretty nill but not zero. With Q level dogs most will feel some pressure and you can read it sometimes in their face, ears, tail and demeanor.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether you think you are adding it or not if they are feeling it. Just a call back adds pressure more with some dogs than others.


Howard I should say collar pressure. Yes you are correct a call back is pressure!And yes I do see it with Tar esp his ears. Thanks ML


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

stoney said:


> I am interested to hear what length and dimensions other people consider appropriate to maintain all the benefits that wagon wheels can offer


 I don't think that I've ever managed to harness all of the benefits that a wagon wheel drill can offer.;-)

But, I think that you are changing it to get something from it, that most trainers get elsewhere.
In other words, I think that you have figured out a way to make a wrench out of a screwdriver.

I'm also interested in how well your screwdriver wrench works.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

copterdoc my sole adaptation of the WW drill is to lengthen the spokes and get rid of the tiers i only do this for all age dogs, I am thinking that u think i am doing a hybrid WW /chinese fan drill The difference is that there are no significent factors involved as u would expect in a fan drill.When i do multi tiered WW with my dogs the inner white circle provides zero suction instead it often has the opposite effect.it teaches my dogs to be procedural that is why I place bumpers out at random color wise My time is better spent on multi factored drills than trying to sweat my dogs to pick up a bummer 7 meters away i guess its a question of time and utility


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

stoney said:


> .....I need my dogs to look out at the line and get a photograph......


 There's something "big" behind this thought.
At least with what I want to "take away" from the wagon wheel.

This is probably going to be hard to explain, and I'll probably have to resort to babbling.

I don't believe that a dog's brain is capable of "aiming". 
In other words, it can't do the math, to process us pointing at something.

However, they can be taught to move with us, and focus their attention on a specific point in a picture.

It's not easy for a dog to relax and move with us, at a micrometer scale. But, they can learn to do it.
That's what the dog learns from the traditional wagon wheel lining drill.

And of course, there is a limit with each dog, just how precise that scale can be made.
If you push too hard, and demand too much, you are going to make cracks in the dog's scull, and it's brains will leak out.

There's only so far that we can take it. And there's only so far that we have to take it.

That doesn't mean that we can't develop better initial lines, and get the dog to carry them. We just need to figure out what is "blocking" the dog's ability to understand, and then design a drill or training set-up that allows the dog to learn what it needs to, in order to overcome or circumvent that "block".


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Flying Dutchman said:


> As someone who has done only an eight bumper wagon wheel so far with my young dog, but is looking ahead to these drills, can I ask a newbie question? All this "efficiency of motion" talk has me thinking. When I have done the wagon wheel drills, I have thought I was teaching the dog to move with me at the line. Thus, when he has returned with the previous bumper, *I have had him come to heel facing the direction he just got a bumper from. Then, once he's delivered that bumper, I have "here" or "heeled" him to the next bumper,* with the thought that I'm teaching him to pay attention to my movement at the line.
> 
> Should I, instead, be lining myself up for the next bumper as he's returning from the previous, in order to teach him to look where I'm facing? If so, how do I teach him to move when I want him to? Is that a different drill? What if I'm lined up, but he isn't? How do I move him?
> 
> ...


 Are you tossing it back out to its original position, then commanding NO or LEAVE IT then repositioning?..
Are doing it in repeat fashion ? 121 232 343 454 545 >>>If you are doing 8 bumpers change it to 9 ..inner ring 5, 2nd ring 4 between the 5...The pick up becomes short long short , long short long, short long short....Hope you get the idea ...There are several benefits from doing the drill as I was taught...Dog learns to focus ,go as sent ...You learn alignment technique , dog becomes comfortable in dealing with mental pressure, The intro to poison bird ,the tossing it back out and leaving it for a different one ...they become comfortable with the concept... Steve S


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

stoney said:


> copterdoc my sole adaptation of the WW drill is to lengthen the spokes and get rid of the tiers i only do this for all age dogs, I am thinking that u think i am doing a hybrid WW /chinese fan drill The difference is that there are no significent factors involved as u would expect in a fan drill.When i do multi tiered WW with my dogs the inner white circle provides zero suction instead it often has the opposite effect.it teaches my dogs to be procedural that is why I place bumpers out at random color wise My time is better spent on multi factored drills than trying to sweat my dogs to pick up a bummer 7 meters away i guess its a question of time and utility


Drills are not perfect. They all have the potential to teach the dog things, that we don't want the dog to learn.

I think that's what you mean, by a dog becoming "procedural".
The dog has mastered the drill, by learning the wrong way to succeed.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I use *NO* pressure doing this drill. *My dog takes to this WW drill well *but he was doing two rings very well before I proceeded! Just a little more challenging for us.  You really have to focus and communicate to your dog and your dog has to be able to focus! *No issues doing this! *It is winter like weather here so I utilize these drills to the max switching up to different ones to *keep things upbeat. Throw in some marks on a different days even PB and longish blinds etc..*


Sounds like you are doing a good job..Take care , the winter will end ,,Steve S


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> There's something "big" behind this thought.
> At least with what I want to "take away" from the wagon wheel.
> 
> 
> ...


copterdoc i am not understanding your point your quote seems contradictory can u explain what u mean again i am interested in the way u think


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

stoney said:


> copterdoc i am not understanding your point your quote seems contradictory can u explain what u mean again i am interested in the way u think


Tell me where you see a contradiction, and I'll try to think of a better way to explain it.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

The classic wagon wheel gets boring for the dog. Jazz them up a bit.
.
.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

stoney said:


> copterdoc * my sole adaptation of the WW drill is to lengthen the spokes and get rid of the tiers* i only do this for all age dogs, I am thinking that u think i am doing a hybrid WW /chinese fan drill The difference is that there are *no significent factors involved *as u would expect in a fan drill.When i do multi tiered WW with my dogs the inner *white circle provides zero suction instead it often has the opposite effect.it teaches my dogs to be procedural * that is why I place bumpers out at random color wise My time is better spent on multi factored drills than trying to sweat my dogs to pick up a bummer 7 meters away i guess its a question of time and utility


After the dogs have learned to take an initial line ,I switch to doing multiple blinds of random lengths and looking to include some factors...We are not that far apart on ideas of teaching dogs to run blinds...If your dogs are not influenced by the short white ring , you have created a slot effect...I teach this concept with the aid of chairs or stickmen ...If you can't get your dogs to pick up that short ring I believe you are missing an important part of teaching the go where sent concept...OR ..you have special dogs that just like to run long...I'm not beating up on you or your way of doing things...just trying to dialog with another trainer...Take care Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Breck said:


> The classic wagon wheel gets boring for the dog. Jazz them up a bit.
> .
> .
> View attachment 10871


I do the same thing without the cones....Steve S


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Breck said:


> The classic wagon wheel gets boring for the dog. Jazz them up a bit.
> .
> .
> View attachment 10871


Very nice!!!


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Quote Originally Posted by stoney View Post
.....I need my dogs to look out at the line and get a photograph......

I agree ..dogs look for similar pictures in their Rolodex file when brought to the line.(Dogs don't have hard drives yet) ..They do have a better recall system than most of use do though ....Steve S


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

You guys keep talking about the dog and lining drills, get away from the usual wagon wheel lining drills when they move with you...I'm bored their bored too.Does your dog have issues with short marks with long guns out?? Set up your lining drill to work on just short bumpers. Does your dog have issues running past short guns? Set up the lining drill to run past short bumpers...Does your dog have issues with indents?? Does your dog have issues with pyramids??etc.. 
Here's the real hard part about doing lining drills.....The handler!! Do you really know where your dog is looking?? With an advanced drill like Breck posted dogs learn to look long and go long...look short and go short..BUT do you know where the dog is looking?? Most people don't..Randy


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

PS
I learned the cone lining drill from Randy who was training one of my dogs. I showed up to training with a different all-age dog. I was sure I knew exactly where she looked when I had her on line. After crashing and burning on Randy's setup I found out I Did Not know where my dog was really looking. I learned how though. 
On drills like this you need to be certain where your dog is actually looking as it's unfair to the dog to be recalling them when you mess up.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

So ,to help the handler learn to read where the dog is looking and simplify for the dog would you spread the setup out to say 180 degrees? 

Also will this be a "pattern" setup? by that I mean will you repeat in the same field ,using the same location or same field but change the spot's of the cones ?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Randy and Breck, like the drill. But don't you know all those white cones will ruin a dog?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Randy Bohn said:


> You guys keep talking about the dog and lining drills, get away from the usual wagon wheel lining drills when they move with you...I'm bored their bored too.Does your dog have issues with short marks with long guns out?? Set up your lining drill to work on just short bumpers. Does your dog have issues running past short guns? Set up the lining drill to run past short bumpers...Does your dog have issues with indents?? Does your dog have issues with pyramids??etc..
> Here's the real hard part about doing lining drills.....The handler!! *Do you really know where your dog is looking??* With an advanced drill like Breck posted dogs learn to look long and go long...look short and go short..BUT do you know where the dog is looking?? *Most people don't..Randy*




If you can't tell where the dog is looking and going to go in the short WW .how in the world will you figure it out in the big world...?

Breck wrote"On drills like this you need to be certain where your dog is actually looking as it's unfair to the dog to be recalling them when you mess up." 
I agree it is never fair to the dog to pay the price of our mistake ...mental pressure...This is the very reason some don't recall but just handle on to the blind...I personally don't use cones ,they are just targets for a dog to line to..orange stakes are bad enough...I want to transition to cold blinds...If I feel the need to work on lining again I return to my 5 leg pattern field...Steve S


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

steve schreiner said:


> ..orange stakes are bad enough...


 For some reason, if you stick them in at a 45 deg angle, they become "invisible" again.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Breck said:


> PS
> I learned the cone lining drill from Randy who was training one of my dogs. I showed up to training with a different all-age dog. I was sure I knew exactly where she looked when I had her on line. After crashing and burning on Randy's setup I found out I Did Not know where my dog was really looking. I learned how though.
> On drills like this you need to be certain where your dog is actually looking as it's unfair to the dog to be recalling them when you mess up.





Boy no kiddin! This drill has probably helped me more than the dog but it has helped the dog too so it has made us more of a team.
I start a little wide then shorten the gaps.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

stoney said:


> Chris and copterdoc i think i mentioned at the start of the vid that i dont use concrete i only did on this occasion because the bumpers are easy to see and i could display the dimensions i use. I am interested to hear what length and dimensions other people consider appropriate to maintain all the benefits that wagon wheels can offer


Stoney,

I find it a bummer that the only thing you chose to address from my reply was the pavement comment. 

I tried to compliment you on your style and your dog's line manners. I also tried to grasp if there are Aus videos of Field Trials that are posted.

I probably should not have commented on the pavement at all. I watched your video only once and frankly was focused almost sole-ly on the visual and not on the audio. It's not that I don't understand the Aus version of English, it's just that I have a loud household with some kids that make noise!

Nice stuff.

Chris


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> For some reason, if you stick them in at a 45 deg angle, they become "invisible" again.



How true that is ...Steve S


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> If you can't tell where the dog is looking and going to go in the short WW .how in the world will you figure it out in the big world...?
> 
> ...



Steve, 
Yes cones are targets for dogs to line to but that's secondary to the real lessons, some of which Randy mentioned above.
This drill is a very versatile tool and has more to do with marking relationships than running blinds. I don't think you run field trials but could benefit from running it.
You will learn a bit about lining your dog up and skimming tight to guns (cones) at long distances, which will help with good Initial Lines on Blinds.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Breck said:


> Steve,
> Yes cones are targets for dogs to line to but that's secondary to the real lessons, some of which Randy mentioned above.
> This drill is a very versatile tool and has more to do with marking relationships than running blinds. I don't think you run field trials but could benefit from running it.
> You will learn a bit about lining your dog up and skimming tight to guns (cones) at long distances, which will help with good Initial Lines on Blinds.


I ran trials before the hunt test game came along and have run some Q's with MH'ers since then ...I have run tight by the guns and bird crates...Using stickmen or chairs with a bird sack in them adds to lines too..But I teach these concepts in my 5 leg pattern and test later when the dog has the idea of what we are doing ...To each his /her own ...I'm not the program police..There is more than one way to teach things to dogs..I gave a man the info on doing the chair drill a few years back to teach initial lines and go close between two gunners on blinds up the middle..Slot drill as some would call it ..In a week he could put those things any where and his dog would split them like hot butter...I guess that is similar to what you are trying to accomplish ... Best wishes in the coming season ...Steve S


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I didn't argue against your 5 leg pattern and think it's just fine. I'm well versed in the use of chairs too.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Stoney,
> 
> I find it a bummer that the only thing you chose to address from my reply was the pavement comment.
> 
> ...


Sorry Chris and thankyou for saying nice things about my dog. poor line manners are penalized in Australia I will try and dig up some typical AA runs and post them up.Our field trials are more pointer and setter type events run on live game Our retrieving trials are more like your field trials
i am enjoying this thread where people are really trying to understand other peoples perspectives


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

i hope this answers some questions regarding my thinking


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## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

Would it be beneficial to start this drill with white bumpers or cones as targets to teach the concept with the greatest chance of success? After a few successful sessions, remove the white targets and let the dog see you place orange bumpers on the outer positions and then transition to setting it up without the dog seeing you set it up? I am thinking that this type of drill can also teach that a soft 'back' is for the shorter blinds and a louder 'back' is for longer blinds (which may include running past an old mark or suction). I like the idea of the modified version to include terrain and/or cover changes once the basics have been taught.


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## Flying Dutchman (May 1, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> Are you tossing it back out to its original position, then commanding NO or LEAVE IT then repositioning?..
> Are doing it in repeat fashion ? 121 232 343 454 545 >>>If you are doing 8 bumpers change it to 9 ..inner ring 5, 2nd ring 4 between the 5...The pick up becomes short long short , long short long, short long short....Hope you get the idea ...There are several benefits from doing the drill as I was taught...Dog learns to focus ,go as sent ...You learn alignment technique , dog becomes comfortable in dealing with mental pressure, The intro to poison bird ,the tossing it back out and leaving it for a different one ...they become comfortable with the concept... Steve S


Steve,

Yes, I receive the dog from one retrieve, replace the bumper by throwing it back in place, then "leave it," "heel" or "here" to the next bumper I want. As Ken said, sometimes that's one bumper "clicks" at a time in a circle, but by the end of the drill, it's random. I even did it a couple of times in the 12, 1:30, 10:30, 3, 9, 4:30, 7:30, 6 (as on a clock...) pattern to make sure we heeled and here'd an equal amount an in both directions. Now, we are still doing this drill with only eight bumpers on one circle as my dog is just finishing the basics in Smartwork. I knew, though, that the two-tiered version of the same wagon wheel drill was not far in my future, so I was trying to get clarity on how you do it. I got this feeling that you guys were all just lining up facing the next bumper as the dog returned and not using this drill to work on moving with you. Sounds like Ken is, though. 

I'd be curious to know how many of you use it for movement training and how many just try to get him lined up with as little movement as possible.

Chad


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Flying Dutchman said:


> .....I was trying to get clarity on how you do it. I got this feeling that you guys were all just lining up facing the next bumper as the dog returned and not using this drill to work on moving with you. Sounds like Ken is, though.
> 
> I'd be curious to know how many of you use it for movement training and how many just try to get him lined up with as little movement as possible.
> 
> Chad


yes, movement drill / move with me drill, for me. If I were doing a multiple mark set up in the field I would point my toes at the next bird so when dog comes to heel he is pointed at the bird he is going to get.
But in this lawn drill I keep my toes pointed at the bumper the dog picked up. Have dog heel looking at the spot it just was. Take bumper and toss back to the spot it was and move the dog with here/ heel to the next one. This is a good point to pick up on Chad "Dutch"


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

stoney said:


> i hope this answers some questions regarding my thinking


I agree you get a lot out of your pivot drill you did at the end of the video...I work on that a lot ....Steve S


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Are you sure Randy showed you this drill? Evan told me none of the good pros run at white markers. (TT revisited)
> Walt


What I really said:


Evan said:


> Walt,
> 
> You won't see *many* top notch FT trainers running toward white poles, at least not for very long. Good luck with it. I hope it's serving you. It surely is not necessary, though.
> 
> Evan


I don't mind if we disagree, Walt. But let's be straight with the facts.

Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I dont do much with the wagonwheel. It only takes a few times for a dog to master the 16 spoke wheel, even a young dog. After that it gets boring for me and the dog.
Here's what I do. In the first video I start out at about 35 yds and yes I am running to white buckets. I am not teaching lining here, well sort of but that is only secondary. I guess you could call this indirect training. What I am working on here is the dog pivioting with me by moving the front legs only and not lifting the but plus the dog coming back to heel and sitting in the proper position without any extra movement. I also move and line the dog to the piles without sending strictly to work on the movement and disapline. I other words I am trying to perfect a partnership and team work with the dog. Also the dog sitting behind has a little noise issue so she is learning to be more patient and hopefully this will quiet her down some.

 *Linning drill 002 *
by labradawg 




Lining drill/ Lucy 

The second video is demonstrating the same thing but with the other dog.



 *Linning drill 003 *
by labradawg 




linning drill 

By the time I get to the third video I have worked out most of the kinks I was working on in the first two. The dog and I have a much better understanding of each other. The dog is more in tune with what I am asking and I am more in tune with where the dog is going. I moved the buckets out to 75yds plus added another ring at 150. In this video it is still pretty simple. The gaps are pretty wide and it is black and white what I am asking the dog to do. After this step I start to squeezing the gaps. In the final step the gap between the 75 yd buckets was about 6 or 7 yds. In the initial stage we worked on disapline and team work now it is becoming a lining drill. Without developing the disapline and team work your not going to do well with lining. This drill has helped me as much if not more than it helped the dog. Also in this video I used my lid cam that attaches to my hat.




 *linning drill 001 *
by labradawg 




Pocket linning drill


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

stoney said:


> i hope this answers some questions regarding my thinking


 When your dog is running over the white bumper, even when you have lined the dog to it, the dog has learned something from the drill, that you don't want the dog to learn.

By design, that's a side-effect of the WW lining drill.

The purpose of the WW lining drill, is not to teach the dog that it "wins" by blinking certain bumpers.

Rather, it gives us a way to use the suction created by a white bumper, to solidify the dog's understanding of being lined to a specific number on the face of a clock.
The whole point of WW, is to teach the dog to move with us, and go where we have oriented the dog to go.

If the dog is relying on "pictures" as it's guidance system, rather than the cues given by the Handler, that means the drill is actually "untraining" the dog at that point.
It's learning stuff that we DON'T want the dog to learn from it.



We can't teach a dog to understand aiming. 
Their brains can't do the math, to align two points, and then triangulate those with a third point out in a field.
Human brains are capable of that kind of triangulation. Even babies.

You can take a person out in a field, with 5 big trees at one end, and just by pointing at one of them, have that person understand exactly which tree you are trying to bring their attention to.

You can stand in front of a baby, and point at something on the wall, or across the room and the baby will look right at it.

Dogs can't do that. 
You can't train them to do that, because they simply do not have the processing power inside their heads, to do the math.


In order to achieve the objective, we need to break it down into two parts. 
Then, we can train the dog on each one separately, and once trained on both, we can bring them together later.


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

Steve, 

Thanks for posting the videos. Nice work!


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Stoney,
> 
> I find it a bummer that the only thing you chose to address from my reply was the pavement comment.
> 
> ...


chris as promised here is a typical australian run from saturdays trial it is a blind and double mark pick up the blind first the dog running is a young american dog nafc fc afc fourleafs icebreaker x fc candlewoods yaddadadda do it


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Very neat. Looks like an interesting blind. Thanks for sending those.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Steve said
"What I am working on here is the dog pivioting with me by moving the front legs only and not lifting the but plus the dog coming back to heel and sitting in the proper position without any extra movement."
.
Steve you have the dogs sitting fairly well but you have not trained them a solid heel position.
Review these two videos with a critical eye. When you pivot dogs or heel to left You are taking two steps forward to get yourself back into heel position instead of having dog stay with you.
Try this, not really this restrictive but, imagine your heels are nailed to the mat. Handle from there.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120208180251.htm



> You can stand in front of a baby, and point at something on the wall, or across the room and the baby will look right at it.
> 
> Dogs can't do that.
> You can't train them to do that, because they simply do not have the processing power inside their heads, to do the math.


There seems to be even at the rudimentary level a correlation.

And gun dogs and sheep dogs seem to be better at it than other breeds. Tha'ts what researchers say any way.
Pete


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Now they are going to say we came from dogs not apes....where will it all end ...OR ... we have gone to the dogs.....Steve S


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Breck said:


> Steve said
> "What I am working on here is the dog pivioting with me by moving the front legs only and not lifting the but plus the dog coming back to heel and sitting in the proper position without any extra movement."
> .
> Steve you have the dogs sitting fairly well but you have not trained them a solid heel position.
> ...






Something has to move either me or the dog especially on a wide swing and I would rather it be me than the dog. If I kept my heels planted the dog would have to get up and move. As I mentioned this drill is being done for a variety of reasons and steadyness is one of them so the dog keeping the butt planted is pretty important to me. I dont want the butt coming up for anything but their name or a back.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Steve i fully understand where you're at. 
But, consider this (and dog butt stays on ground).
First, when dog is out in front of you you cannot know where they're looking.
With you basically standing in one spot try teaching dog that sit/heel means collar evenwith leg. Pivoting on heels dog moves with you either heel/here while shuffling butt on ground while staying in sit position.
Anyway give it a try if you want.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Pete said:


> There seems to be even at the rudimentary level a correlation.
> 
> And gun dogs and sheep dogs seem to be better at it than other breeds. Tha'ts what researchers say any way.
> Pete


 I'm not at all surprised that dogs did better than Chimpanzees in this study.

If dogs couldn't be directed to an object, by physical gestures we wouldn't be able to teach a dog to mark off a gun, take a cast, or take an initial line on a blind.

But, I suspect that it has everything to do with their sensitivity to our gestures, and movements, rather than the "pointing ability" of the animal.

If you think about it, when we point at something, we are using off axis aiming to show someone else what we want them to notice.
And this relies on their ability to do the same.

It's the same ability, that allows for instinctive shooting with traditional archery equipment, or even a slingshot.
With practice, we can become incredibly accurate using that method. At least at distances where we do not need to significantly account for ballistic trajectory. 
And we do it, without even thinking about it.

I don't believe that dogs have that ability. They don't need to shoot projectiles at things.
However, the way that many people attempt to "point" things out to their dogs, demands that the dog be able to understand off axis, or even on axis aiming.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This thread has been very informative. Thanks. 



> Breck said:
> 
> 
> > The classic wagon wheel gets boring for the dog. Jazz them up a bit.


This reminded me of a “change of pace” lining drill I set up a few years ago for a young dog. Based on Breck's comment, I'm going to adjust it (bigger scale & closer to wagon wheel form) for a more interesting spring review with my four dogs. I intend to "circle more decoys" (inner ring). 

*bumpers not visible from line(s), past rise & in a depression*


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

I use decoys to create a slot look to the dog also... Steve S


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

stoney said:


> steve my experience is the really good lining dogs learn to look between bumpers on a multi level wagon wheel and have trouble picking up the close obvious circle.


That's why I favor multi-tier Wagon Wheel Lining drills. But you make a good point that I believe relates to the importance of balance. And it's different from dog to dog as to how you balance the presentation to keep them high functioning. This tight lining business is not the best training for all dogs. Some dogs thrive on it, while others tend to bug or overreact.

Evan


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Evan said:


> That's why I favor multi-tier Wagon Wheel Lining drills. But you make a good point that I believe relates to the importance of balance. And it's different from dog to dog as to how you balance the presentation to keep them high functioning. This tight lining business is not the best training for all dogs. Some dogs thrive on it, while others tend to bug or overreact.
> 
> Evan


Evan Bossco can line very very tight.It was difficult to c the middle tier of orange bumpers in the vid i posted but bossco was running within a foot of some of the oranges at 20 yards to get to the back canvas tier.The point i was making is that i can now no longer get enough value in sweating my dogs on short obvious bumpers even though they dont wont to pick them up.For me it is better utility to just do a larger spoke system and put out a mixture of canvas plastic and multi coloured bumpers at random at at 35 yards.i am time poor and cant always afford a couple of hours to go set up a chinese fan drill


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

He sounds like a fun boy, Peter!

Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Breck said:


> Steve i fully understand where you're at.
> But, consider this (and dog butt stays on ground).
> First, when dog is out in front of you you cannot know where they're looking.
> With you basically standing in one spot try teaching dog that sit/heel means collar evenwith leg. Pivoting on heels dog moves with you either heel/here while shuffling butt on ground while staying in sit position.
> Anyway give it a try if you want.






Thanks Breck.
I've been trying for a couple days to figure out what it is your seeing here and have come to the conclusion that it is part camera angle and part intentional on my part. The first dog (blue collar) is an older dog with a couple open jams and does sit out in front of me a bit but not far. certainly not two steps. I am more comfortable lining this dog out in front of me just a bit. She does not have roving eyes, where her head and body are pointed is where she is looking so I really dont need to be up on her enough to see her eyes. She is 5 and it is just a style we have both become comfortable with. As far as taking two steps forward when heeling left that is kind of intentional. When running an actual blind I do not move like this. Dont need to because I am in the position I'm going to send the dog upon it's return and was working on proper heel position as the dog came back to heel. When pushing left I am intentionally walking around her to keep HER planted in one position. This dog is a creeper and a breaker so in my mind I do not want her lifting her butt or scooting on it at all especially with a forward movement. So in order to accomplish this when swinging say 180 degrees I have to walk up on the dog to push her around and step back to pull her. When just moving in smaller degrees I dont think I am stepping up on her. Stepping up and walking around this dog is only done in this drill to keep her planted in one spot. Both dogs are taught proper heel positon on their return. Anyway this is my inturpretation of what I think you are seeing and anxious to hear your thoughts.
The second dog is a 2 yr old and does have roving eyes so I do need to be up on her so there is a little different style between the two dogs. Also I might add this is the first time we have done this drill.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK Steve I'm not the best at explaining this stuff but hope it's helpful. It's based on how I handle now, not how you may handle. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you're doing just offering another method to think about. 
What I see is you moving more than you need to. This means the dog has to pay more attention to you, trying to interpret what you're communicating to him, rather than looking out in the field. Were you in the military by chance? Standing at attention think of the mechanics of making a basic Left Face turn. Simply turn your left foot, body turn follows and lastly right foot is moved forward to meet your left. That's it 1, 2, 3 no other movement. 
Handling a dog like I'm talking about involves similar purposeful movement without unnecessary handler motion. When you "left face" pivot foot to a new direction the dog will adjust his position to align with where your foot is now pointing and through training drills they learn to look out in the field in that same direction. In order to do this dog needs to learn several things one of which is that his collar belongs glued to your leg. While pivoting left or right, dog will always be in a heel/sit with collar even with your leg. You can make large 180 degree swings, make small adjustment or whatever. Now it's not all that strict as there are times you will step forward or back or whatever handling your dog depending on what's going on.

It helps if you use a pinch collar and training tab. Here's basically how to set one up on pg 2 .. http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...s-the-rope-your-up-and-coming-pup-is-dragging

So, using a pinch collar and tab do heel/here training on a basic 25 yard wagon wheel working your dog left and right etc. (Imagine a paper plate nailed to the mat, 90% of the time your feet won't leave the plate while doing this training). Bend over at the waist, slowly pivot your feet to new direction and sweet talk your dog, speaking softly. Here, heel, no, sit, good....etc. Train him to move with you in small increments. Stay facing in direction you send and pivot to next bumper after dog comes to heel/sit and you take bumper. A gentle tug on tab is OK but other than giving pinch collar corrections for violation of sit, you holding the tab is just a connection to the dog that communicates his movement boundaries. His collars home is at your leg. Your training tab length sets his freedom of movement limits forward, outward and backward. If he pulls tab out of your fingers, oh oh. Dogs butt must stay on ground so the heel/here pivot training involves a bunch of sit corrections. A training partner standing behind you can help notice dogs butt coming up just an inch better than you. When heeling, dogs tend to over heel sometimes and get their backside behind you. Use bottom of non dog side foot to reach back and swat their butt. Moving in here they tend to lag a bit so a little tug on training tab helps bring them around. Once you teach dog to move with you like this you can use your e-collar, low bumps, to remind dog he's out of position if needed.

Anyway, hope you get the general idea.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Breck said:


> OK Steve I'm not the best at explaining this stuff but hope it's helpful. It's based on how I handle now, not how you may handle. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you're doing just offering another method to think about.
> *What I see is you moving more than you need to. This means the dog has to pay more attention to you, trying to interpret what you're communicating to him, rather than looking out in the field*. Were you in the military by chance? Standing at attention think of the mechanics of making a basic Left Face turn. Simply turn your left foot, body turn follows and lastly right foot is moved forward to meet your left. That's it 1, 2, 3 no other movement.
> Handling a dog like I'm talking about involves similar purposeful movement without unnecessary handler motion. When you "left face" pivot foot to a new direction the dog will adjust his position to align with where your foot is now pointing and through training drills they learn to look out in the field in that same direction. In order to do this dog needs to learn several things one of which is that his collar belongs glued to your leg. While pivoting left or right, dog will always be in a heel/sit with collar even with your leg. You can make large 180 degree swings, make small adjustment or whatever. Now it's not all that strict as there are times you will step forward or back or whatever handling your dog depending on what's going on.
> 
> ...







I do get the general idea Breck and I appreciate the comments. When I am running marks or blinds I do not move like this at all, no need to. My purpose here is for the dog not to move the butt at all. With that habit ingrained and teaching the dog to come to proper heel when approaching the line or when returning there is very little movement in either me or the dog. When actually running marks or blinds I handle much as you describe. 
The above bolded sentence is exactly what I am looking for in this drill. I see in your signature line you have a former Bohn project. This is why I am very interested in your thoughts. The older dog as I mentioned has turned into a creeper and breaker, the younger one has gotten noisey. I train mostly alone and both of these dogs do not show "much" of this in training but get them to a trial and it all comes boiling out. This drill was explained to me by someone that had a real wild noisey dog that had consulted with Randy a bunch and I was under the assumption that a big part of what I need to do to correct this is get the dog to pay more attention to me. Sometimes going to the line at a trial they barely know Im there. This is what I am attempting to fix with this drill by pushin and pulling making them pay more attention to me rather than anticipation of what is in the field and hoping that it will translate to better manners at the line in a trial. I added my extreme movement just to teach the dog stay planted and only pivot with the front feet which I had never been too strict about in the past. Especially with the older dog I want as little movement out of her as possible.
I too am not the best at explaining what Im thinking but these are my intentions and goals for these two dogs. I do understand and agree with what you are saying. I am going to send you a PM, I am interested in your neck of the woods.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Steve, most of the stuff I'm trying to describe come right from Randy's methods. If you can try what I described it is the ground work to get the dog to pay attention to you better. With less gross movement they become more sensitive to subtle movement. Takes a few weeks of obedience work. Try it with your creeper for sure. Noise is another matter but you will still need to tighten up your obedience standards in order to address it.
First, pinch collar and tab.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157633112749657/show/
this is for chris
i was not at this trial but some nice photography and a little insight into our retrieving trials


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

stoney said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157633112749657/show/
> this is for chris
> i was not at this trial but some nice photography and a little insight into our retrieving trials


Stoney,

Thanks for sharing!! Those are some great shots..Quite the variety of dogs.

Those shotguns look like they may be too nice for kicking around a field trial. Classic side by sides, nice touch.


P.S. Maybe should start your own thread... I don't know if these pics will get the attention they deserve buried at the end of this old thread.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Stoney, thanks for the pics. I enjoyed them quite a bit.

My thought when looking them over: The more we may think we're all different, the more we're all the same!


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

glad u enjoyed them Chris these pics are from the novice stake which has a great diversity of breeds. i thought the quality of the photography was quite exceptional and it gives u are real idea of what happens in our minor stakes. Competitors can wear whatever they like and the marks are thrown by concealed catapults
Rnd the shotguns used are only average they are only used to shoot primers and i would never hunt using one the guns are usually donated to the retriever clubs by members who dont wont them anymore
Chris did u have have a look at the blind that i put up in post 58 it is a typical all age blind in australia and was set by a tasmanian judge over our january long weekend trial


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