# Clicker training ... Can’t deny it works ... go ahead TRY :)



## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

For all you clicker “haters”  

http://youtu.be/pyys0flPFeo

This is Penny at *4 months old*. I have used clicker training before for other breeds, tricks, agility work, and some basic behaviors... Penny is the 1st retriever puppy I have started with from scratch laying foundation work for retrieving utilizing a clicker.

Penny will still be force fetched ... I know that question will come up  It’s never always “lolly pops and butterflies” type dog training ... But, I DO believe in keeping things as positive as possible for youngsters.

Hope you enjoy our video!


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Looks great but the question I always come back to is, "How will you utilize the clicker when dog is learning/running a 400 yard keyhole blind?"
Not trying to be a smart aleck because what you are doing with the clicker and treats are working.
Since I have never used it I would like to learn more about the philosophy and procedures.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Danielle, 

Penny's doing great. How could anyone argue with success? I really liked her enthusiasm and style. Nice, quiet, concise, responsive, smooth.

I think you have a lot of fun in your future with her.

Good luck and thanks for sharing.

Chris


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## gward (Mar 15, 2010)

Great job Danielle, What a nice pup, I'd say clicker training is working just fine, I can tell by the wag of her tail!!!


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

OMG i want her. LOL how much danielle?? 

She is doing so great. wow cant beleave my eyes. I think i love place board training. I will be doing this with my new pup


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Danielle,
> 
> Penny's doing great. How could anyone argue with success? I really liked her enthusiasm and style. Nice, quiet, concise, responsive, smooth.
> 
> ...




Couldn't agree more...On top of that, she should be rock steady with VERY little effort. What are your plans for control/correction in latter phases?


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

Looks great! Thanks for sharing. I also clicker train my lab (I use "yes" instead of a click) and she learns so much faster with more solid responses than my older guy. 

One example - Using the clicker to teach steadiness is the easiest and best thing I've ever done. Got it from Milner. Agree with him or not, he has a lot of good stuff about clicker training pups. There is no holding them back, letting them run to the end of the check cord, or leash corrections for breaking or creeping (which in my opinion dramatically reduces drive). They are steadied through reward so they maintain every once of drive.

Sure glad I got on the clicker band wagon.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Watchm said:


> Looks great but the question I always come back to is, "How will you utilize the clicker when dog is learning/running a 400 yard keyhole blind?"
> Not trying to be a smart aleck because what you are doing with the clicker and treats are working.
> Since I have never used it I would like to learn more about the philosophy and procedures.


If this pup, when she's bigger and is running 400 yard blinds, has excellent line manners, a positive attitude, and is responsive to the handler, why won't you say that the performance is indeed utilizing clicker training?

Any mental programming that a trainer does, to build a solid foundation for future work, is contributing to the overall composite output of that dog's work.

Even if that dog never sees a clicker once they get into the pattern field, you cannot deny that clicker training was, and by the definition of training, _is_ a factor in this dog's education.

And if one were to "build" a 400 yard keyhole blind as a school-blind or pattern blind, I'd bet clicker training could be used for that portion of the training. 

She said "go ahead and give it a try"....but she never mentioned anything, nor made any claims about advanced or transition training and how the clicker would or would not be incorporated into the training.


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## bakbay (May 20, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> This is Penny at *4 months old*. I have used clicker training before for other breeds, tricks, agility work, and some basic behaviors... Penny is the 1st retriever puppy I have started with from scratch laying foundation work for retrieving utilizing a clicker.


Perfect timing!! My wife has done clicker training with our labs for years doing agility but is not currently doing any agility. I have a 7 day old lab that I intended to do some basic clicker training with as a new part of my older methods. Obviously, 7 days old is too soon...but, at what age did you start clicker conditioning and what was the sequence in which you trained the various behaviours to achieve such solid results. I was very impressed with the mouth on your pup.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

A client made me a believer...

Kudo's

Angie


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Very nice...


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

I've had my eyes opened to the use of a clicker by Milner. I saw him work with dogs and I was able to teach my pup very quickly. Great job and cool video.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Watchm said:


> Looks great but the question I always come back to is, "How will you utilize the clicker when dog is learning/running a 400 yard keyhole blind?"


 I will not use a clicker to teach a 400 yard key hole blind .... I am using it for puppy training in a positive way...


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Duckquilizer said:


> What are your plans for control/correction in latter phases?


Pretty standard: e-collar, slip chain, ear pinch, heeling stick  ... I just believe it is easier and more “fair” to give a correction when the dog understands _what_ he/she is being corrected for

Teach positive correct for mistakes rather that _teach_ with pressure. 

Force fetch and force to pile etc.. are steps I do believe in an feel are important steps in the progression of a good retriever. But, this solid foundation in positive learning helps with attitude and understanding when working through pressure and problems later on. Not just talking about “marker/clicker” training ... just talking positive re-enforcement training in general. 

I see that dogs that are encouraged to be problem solvers and think about things are not frightened to make mistakes.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I enroll my puppies in socialization courses, and afterwards in obedience courses. I find it useful in teaching the dogs sit, here, heel, kennel, etc. I have not used it to teach casting, but see no reason why it wouldn't work.

They use clickers to teach the killer whales at Sea World

Ted


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

runnindawgz said:


> I will not use a clicker to teach a 400 yard key hole blind .... I am using it for puppy training in a positive way...


That's all I needed to hear.
Good luck along the journey.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I think Chuck would have enjoyed this thread.

We've come a long way baby regards

john


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> If this pup, when she's bigger and is running 400 yard blinds, has excellent line manners, a positive attitude, and is responsive to the handler, why won't you say that the performance is indeed utilizing clicker training?
> 
> Any mental programming that a trainer does, to build a solid foundation for future work, is contributing to the overall composite output of that dog's work.
> 
> ...


I thought of that Chris, but didn’t really want to get into it. ABSOLUTELY true. 

While I may not be likely to use a clicker for 400 yard key hole blinds; I believe the process would be simple enough to teach. LOL.... Thanks for the support and yes, foundation work is all I am focused on right now.

I knew the topic might “stir” a healthy discussion....


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> I see that dogs that are encouraged to be problem solvers and think about things are not frightened to make mistakes.


Good observation. I agree.
I believe you are a very intuitive trainer. I will look forward to your posts. JD


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> For all you clicker “haters”
> 
> http://youtu.be/pyys0flPFeo
> 
> ...


Great video, Danielle. Puppy looks awesome.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I"ve just glanced over this thread but I will say if it works for you who am I or anyone else to question it. There are many ways to train a dog and from what I've been told more than one way to skin a cat......why would anyone want to skin a cat? I think I've read to many of Goosers post Lord help me.


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## sammydog (Jul 11, 2008)

That is so cute! Looks like she is learning a lot at a very young age and is very happy to be working with you!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Really nice job! What book/vid/human did you fashion your work after?


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Really nice job! What book/vid/human did you fashion your work after?


Don't know who she learned that from, but Pat Nolan does some very impressive things with young pups using similar methods. Really cool video, regardless.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Charles C. said:


> Don't know who she learned that from, but Pat Nolan does some very impressive things with young pups using similar methods. Really cool video, regardless.


 
PERFECT ! I will be at the Attar and co. clinic this weekend, Pat is one of the presenters!!


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Really nice job! What book/vid/human did you fashion your work after?


mmm... I have been training dogs since I was 13. Been to lots of seminars, read _lots_ of books, worked with lots of trainers (all sorts = agility, field, obedience).

Regarding use of marker training specifically, I guess I got a lot out of a Kay Lawrence seminar I attended about 12 years ago.

Yes, Pat Nolan is a great guy and I enjoy watching his stuff but can;t say I necessarily “model” my training days after anyone.


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

John Lash said:


> Very nice...


x2.

My dog Edge is now 3 & we still get the clicker out for new behaviors. Decided I wanted a 2 sided heeling dog - clicker. Thought he needed to reverse heel - clicker. He gets soo excited when I get it out like he says "what we learning new today, boss".


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

runnindawgz said:


> mmm... I have been training dogs since I was 13. Been to lots of seminars, read _lots_ of books, worked with lots of trainers (all sorts = agility, field, obedience).
> 
> *Regarding use of marker training specifically, I guess I got a lot out of a Kay Lawrence seminar I attended about 12 years ago.*
> 
> Yes, Pat Nolan is a great guy and I enjoy watching his stuff but can;t say I necessarily “model” my training days after anyone.


 That is what I was asking...thanks! 
I also have watched , listened and learned from many sources, so I hear where you are coming from


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Starting at about 8 weeks, I'm going to start strapping an electric collar on my puppy to start conditioning the tone to be the marker instead of the click from the clicker. That way I can mark behaviors at any distance.

I'm torn because in the past I have taught my dogs to sit on the tone which is also useful, especially while hunting. Being able to sit a dog without a sound when hunting spooky wild pheasant is nice.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Buzz said:


> Starting at about 8 weeks, I'm going to start strapping an electric collar on my puppy to start conditioning the tone to be the marker instead of the click from the clicker. That way I can mark behaviors at any distance.
> .


That is a super interesting idea! I like it! Have you done this before with another dog?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Buzz said:


> Starting at about 8 weeks, I'm going to start strapping an electric collar on my puppy to start conditioning the tone to be the marker instead of the click from the clicker. That way I can mark behaviors at any distance.
> 
> I'm torn because in the past I have taught my dogs to sit on the tone which is also useful, especially while hunting. Being able to sit a dog without a sound when hunting spooky wild pheasant is nice.


I remember Robert Milner saying he was going to do this with the tone and with a vibrate feature on a remote collar. I'm pretty sure he has played with this by now.

I don't see why it wouldn't work.

My biggest concern with this idea would be accidentally pushing the wrong button.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I think Chuck would have enjoyed this thread.
> 
> We've come a long way baby regards
> 
> john


Please see your private message inbox buddy.

Thanks, Chris


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

very cool! What's not to like about that?


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

*Nice pup and a very well produced video.*

*Danielle, Question:* What is the difference/advantage to using the clicker or just saying "good" at the appropriate time? 
Wouldn't the verbal (good) be just as effective as the mechanical (clicker)............and if not, why not?


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Really nice job! What book/vid/human did you fashion your work after?


Michael Ellis (from Leerburg.com) is a Schutzhund/Mondio Ring trainer and one of the best dog trainers out ther IMO (any sport). This is one of the best explanations I've seen of clicker/marker training and he goes into how he eventually layers over correction and pressure which is very interesting and something you don't get from most good marker trainiers. Definitely worth a look. 

This is a from a seminar he did. 

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php?id=529


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

Very nice video, excellent presentation and of course extremely positive results, kudos to you. I viewed your other Utube vids and see you are a serious trainer and links to your web site confirm you are serious and also skilled. 

My question is a follow up to Labguy's; when a retriever is bred for birdiness, why should we as trainers view the clicker (which seems to herald a food reward) an important step in field training prior to (or replacement to) the introduction of birds as the reward? And, if the clicker/food reward is a precurser to advanced/ distance training, how do you transition to birds?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Danielle,*

Well done. I don't think there are too many "clicker haters" in RTF now; there is I believe a growing awareness that the technique is just another tool in the bag and doesn't threaten anyone. Yours is the best presentation I've seen in here, and the response has been overwhelmingly positive (groan).

There are a number of people who don't "get it" but that's a result of not really knowing what clicker can and can't do. Your wee movie and follow up explanations go a good way in showing folk what we are up to. I've predicted in RTF that in ten years time teaching the basics via clicker/positive will be seen as mainstream and entirely unexceptional. Having viewed the comments on your efforts, maybe it will be sooner. Again, well done.

*Blind ambition* posted 


> My question is a follow up to Labguy's; when a retriever is bred for birdiness, why should we as trainers view the clicker (which seems to herald a food reward) an important step in field training prior to (or replacement to) the introduction of birds as the reward? And, if the clicker/food reward is a precurser to advanced/ distance training, how do you transition to birds?


Danielle may answer for herself, but I think you are seeing clicker as "retrieve training" which it isn't; it's a method of teaching and behaviour modification, period. The things we are teaching are the Old Time Religion of heel, sit, stay, here, dead and all the rest of it. These are merely precursors to the retrieve training as such, and once they are embedded clicker is usually left behind. At that point the retrieve itself becomes the reward just as it does in "conventional" training, but what you are starting out with is a solid foundation of OB and any other tasks (like place training) you wish to add to the dog's profile. So the transition to birds is just as per normal.

The distant tone thing I've mulled over for some time but never came up with any ideas I couldn't see big holes in. I must get back in touch with Robert.

Eug


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

*when a retriever is bred for birdiness, why should we as trainers view the clicker (which seems to herald a food reward) an important step in field training prior to (or replacement to) the introduction of birds as the reward? And, if the clicker/food reward is a precurser to advanced/ distance training, how do you transition to birds?*

Using a Clicker(or marker) is NOT a pre-curser to bird introduction. 

I have used the clicker (as you can see in the video) to: 
a) MARK behavior of “sit and reward for it.
b) Mark the location where Penny is supposed to sit (the place board).
c) Mark the behavior of picking up the item (dumb-bell)
d) Holding the item (in this case the dumb-bell) in her mouth. 
*and *
e) CHAINING the above behaviors through marking for successive approximation after each one has been established _separately_ ... 

Saying that the bird replaced food is an incorrect thought about how marker training is used. 

The equivalent in this case would be to say my dumb-bell is her “bird.” 

If thats the case why would she want to interact with the dumb-bell? 

In the yard penny will we worked on drills using bumpers (in fact the last retrieve in my video with a bumper delivered to hand (and not coincidentally... re watch it and you can see the thought process about the pup’s delivery).

The bird will replace the bumper / the praise will be verbal and not always food. The marker will be the word “yes” or praise “good.”

PENNY is very very birdy. Do you do your puppy (or beginning training for any age dog) using birds or bumpers? 

She gets marks (people, remote sends, and winger) with birds 2 - 3 days a week. She is a nice marking puppy and returns promptly unlike a lot of pups ... due to the fact that when she returns she gets praise and this is a conditioned behavior thanks to place training and marker training. 

I can “click" for the return with the bird.... although her DRIVE is so insatiable when birds are in the picture, I usually do not bring the clicker to the “field." Praise is enough and the “next bird” is a great reward. 

As for distance work .. I like the idea of using collar tone but honestly, do not plan to use t that way. 

In tandem with the marker of the “click” I will alternate with the word “yes.” For years I have been training young pups to whistle stop at a great distance by use of a _tennis ball_. As far as I can throw it (or use the “chuck-it”).... I can reward a puppy for a proper whistle sit at a great distance. the “punishment” for not sitting or sitting crooked or not looking at me .. is no tennis ball is thrown. 

There will be PLENTY of time for Collar corrections in the field later on  these are just some positive ways to *LAY FOUNDATIONS* >>>>

Just for good measure... is a photo of penny holding a bird...


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

labguy said:


> *Nice pup and a very well produced video.*
> 
> *Danielle, Question:* What is the difference/advantage to using the clicker or just saying "good" at the appropriate time?
> Wouldn't the verbal (good) be just as effective as the mechanical (clicker)............and if not, why not?


Thanks ... good question ...

I use the word YES occasionally instead of clicking so that a second marker is established. However - the human voice is something the dogs hears CONSTANTLY we talk to our dogs WAY to much. The sound of our voice is not as distinct and “meaningful” when dealing with marking the EXACT precise moment we like what a dog is doing... the clicker sound is a novel one and the delay in a voice marker can sometimes make or break the repetition of a desired behavior. 

Now, the word “GOOD” is praise .... praise is different than a mark. 

Praise is more parallel to the food. Get it?


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Awesome, Danielle. Just awesome in so many ways.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I just viewed the video. Penny looks great! Good luck.


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## cripes (Aug 14, 2011)

Watchm said:


> Looks great but the question I always come back to is, "How will you utilize the clicker when dog is learning/running a 400 yard keyhole blind?"
> Not trying to be a smart aleck because what you are doing with the clicker and treats are working.
> Since I have never used it I would like to learn more about the philosophy and procedures.


How does the Navy teach dolphins to work in the open sea swimming through schools of bait fish to plant mines on hulls of ships? Certainly not with electric shock, sticks or prong collars. The more I learn about marker training the more I kick myself for the way I've trained in the past. Training a dog is easier when you ellicit cooperation instead of trying to dominate. It's the most amazing thing to see a pup searching for answers when he makes a mistake and you tell him "nope" in a friendly matter of fact way.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Danielle,

I really enjoyed the video. It is amazing how the enthusiasm of your pup is glowing with each command. It also was interesting to see how, at such an early age, little things like mini-t can be incorporated into normal OB training with a pup so young.

Great job.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Got an open mind....not being ugly.....when I see clicker people consistantly beating A list pros and AMs ...I'm in...Field trials that is.


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## Scott Bass (Apr 28, 2009)

That is some AWESOME stuff. It is a great foundation to build off of. I wish my 5 month old was half that good in the yard.

Great Job, and hope to see you at some Derbys soon.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

That was a thing of sheer beauty Danielle. What a great way to introduce a dog to basics. what I like most about your video is that it demonstrates the 2 uses of positive reinforcement which are 180 degrees apart from each other. And the fact that you chose 2 different words for positive re-inforcent,,,,,both meaning something slightly different to the dog. 1 for marking a behavior and 1 for continuing a behavior. Very nice illistration.


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## Erin O'Brien (Mar 5, 2010)

She looks great! Nice work.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Great video! Never used a clicker but looked like that pup thoroughly enjoys her lessons and learning in general.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Jay Dufour said:


> Got an open mind....not being ugly.....when I see clicker people consistantly beating A list pros and AMs ...I'm in...Field trials that is.


I bet cha “Clicker trainers” could beat the big time pros when .... When their clicker come in a package with 1,000 acres of land, and technical water, plus unlimited resources for birds, helpers, live flyers, and the money and time to enter scores of trials every year .... 

Semantics.

For the record ... I am not a “clicker trainer” I use it as one tool for basic’s confidence, and problem solving at a young age.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> Thanks ... good question ...
> 
> I use the word YES occasionally instead of clicking so that a second marker is established. However - the human voice is something the dogs hears CONSTANTLY we talk to our dogs WAY to much. The sound of our voice is not as distinct and “meaningful” when dealing with marking the EXACT precise moment we like what a dog is doing... the clicker sound is a novel one and the delay in a voice marker can sometimes make or break the repetition of a desired behavior.
> 
> ...


Hey Danielle, 

Cool comments. The first exposure I got to clicker training was my old buddy Harry Harper, aka "Blast" whom some old timers may recall. Harry's additional comment was that the human voice has way too many inconsistencies in terms of what the dog hears - volume, tone, pitch, etc. Too much emotion can be imparted with the voice, changing the potential message delivered to the dog. The clicker sound is consistent regardless. 

Anyhow, that was video worthy of being posted on RTF. It sets a very good, solid example of what good training can look like. I would expect that would be a very nice standard for anyone training a retriever to try to achieve with a young dog.

In short, Danielle has given positive proof that she's walking the talk.

Mr. Fallon, this sets up a key difference between what's going on here, versus the comments you posted here earlier about someone else.

Chris


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

very cool. the pup looks great in that video. i am currently at the last stages of FF with a 7 month old LBD. He is the most wired up, hard charging, crazy dog i've ever worked with or been around. 

What are any of y'alls experiences clicker training with a real wound up pup?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gatorb said:


> very cool. the pup looks great in that video. i am currently at the last stages of FF with a 7 month old LBD. He is the most wired up, hard charging, crazy dog i've ever worked with or been around.
> 
> What are any of y'alls experiences clicker training with a real wound up pup?


At 7 months of age, and already in FF, his obedience should have been formalized. Corporal pressure should be a part of upholding your obedience standards. That would be true of any dog, but especially of a hot rod.

Force fetch is, in itself, a pressure conditioning process. That tends to go much better for dogs that already function in a stable manner under pressure and distraction. Those are benefits of formal obedience.

Evan


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Jay Dufour said:


> Got an open mind....not being ugly.....when I see clicker people consistantly beating A list pros and AMs ...I'm in...Field trials that is.


What does clicker training have to do with retriever training?

We are talking about a 4 month old puppy who is going through Obedience training (and doing a pretty good job of it too). Danielle is using Clicker Training to work on the obedience that is the most important part of the future training which everyone likes to automatically jump to as a defensive argument.

And since we all know, A list pro kennels do not receive pups until they are at least 6 months old, it would be very hard to have proof that clicker trainers can / do / do not beat A list pros in field trialing, since we all know dogs can not be entered in field trials until they are 6 months old.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Evan said:


> At 7 months of age, and already in FF, his obedience should have been formalized. Corporal pressure should be a part of upholding your obedience standards. That would be true of any dog, but especially of a hot rod.
> 
> Force fetch is, in itself, a pressure conditioning process. That tends to go much better for dogs that already function in a stable manner under pressure and distraction. Those are benefits of formal obedience.
> 
> Evan


Yes ... BUT .... I have seen marker training (lets call it this instead of “clicker” training): help dogs at ANY stage increase self - control, concentration, and focus/problem solving and THINKING about tasks. 

At the stage in which this pup is at (Gatorb’s puppy) - I would consider it a _“cross-over dog”_ ... such dogs take a bit longer for that light bulb to go on regarding marker training because their foundation work is that of consequence. Often crossover dogs don’t want to make mistakes so they do not make attempts to offer alternative behaviors.

<< Side note >> I think I will post a video of my Jack Russell Terrier and I doing a “free shaping” exercise .. its one of his favorite things to do  ... this would be a fun way for such a young rambunctious dog to get started becoming a focused "thinking” type of dog. 

I did a demo at a very busy local humane society shelter last year and we had the WHOLE kennel (probably 40) rambunctious, BARKING dogs sitting quietly at their gates with just 6 volunteers plus myself walking the hallways. At that same seminar I trained a kitten to “sit.” on command.

GatorB ~ I think that it will help with your dogs concentration but... you *MUST take time to educate yourself first and have patience above all. *


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Danielle - what documentation would you suggest for someone interested in learning more about "clicker" or "marker" training? I have a one year old that is a little bit of a nervous nellie - even with lots of patience and a very light hand, we have all but given up on her. I'm wondering if marker training might help her with her confidence. It's worth a try I think.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

hughest said:


> Danielle - what documentation would you suggest for someone interested in learning more about "clicker" or "marker" training? I have a one year old that is a little bit of a nervous nellie - even with lots of patience and a very light hand, we have all but given up on her. I'm wondering if marker training might help her with her confidence. It's worth a try I think.


YES ... worth a try for SURE!! 

_hmmm.... maybe I will have to host my first seminar  _

Seriously - I will think about it and put together a list of resources folks may find helpful.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Zman1001 said:


> What does clicker training have to do with retriever training?
> 
> We are talking about a 4 month old puppy who is going through Obedience training (and doing a pretty good job of it too). Danielle is using Clicker Training to work on the obedience that is the most important part of the future training which everyone likes to automatically jump to as a defensive argument.
> 
> And since we all know, A list pro kennels do not receive pups until they are at least 6 months old, it would be very hard to have proof that clicker trainers can / do / do not beat A list pros in field trialing, since we all know dogs can not be entered in field trials until they are 6 months old.


 Ok ,so it was a retriever in the video,and she was throwing stuff for it...and giving hand signals ect.......and doing very nicely.I'm am not downing anything at all.....even though I don't care to argue with any of the internet experts.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

john fallon said:


> I think Chuck would have enjoyed this thread.
> 
> We've come a long way baby regards
> 
> john


"Empty your cup so that it may be filled..." 

"Knowledge is fixed in time, whereas, knowing is continual." 

Both quotes from Tao Of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> Yes ... BUT .... I have seen marker training (lets call it this instead of “clicker” training): help dogs at ANY stage increase self - control, concentration, and focus/problem solving and THINKING about tasks.
> 
> At the stage in which this pup is at (Gatorb’s puppy) - I would consider it a _“cross-over dog”_ ... such dogs take a bit longer for that light bulb to go on regarding marker training because their foundation work is that of consequence. Often crossover dogs don’t want to make mistakes so they do not make attempts to offer alternative behaviors.
> 
> << Side note >> I think I will post a video of my Jack Russell Terrier and I doing a “free shaping” exercise .. its one of his favorite things to do  ... this would be a fun way for such a young rambunctious dog to get started becoming a focused "thinking” type of dog.


That's fine. I wasn't really commenting on OC vs. anything. My offering was only intended to provide alternative suggestions for Gatorb's "wound up" retriever. I teach OC without clickers in my method for retriever puppies preparing for formal Basics. 

I think perhaps if you're providing a clicker demo for older, more developed retrievers that perhaps a clip of a 7 month old "wound up" *Ford* pup may be more meaningful to this audience. It's just that the applications would relate better to what RTF trainers see each day.

Perhaps a series of clips of retrievers at progressive ages and stages of develpment through Basics and Transition, incorporating clicker use during all of that. I think that may be what some of the prior questions have been aiming toward. I think Your video of Penny was very nice, and serves to offer fresh insight into ideas many retriever people aren't yet using. I hope to see more.

Evan


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Love it Danielle! You have just given me a whole bunch of new ideas


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

OK! I’ll bite ... Send me a "Ford” puppy !!!!! 

Thanks Evan, Erin, and all who took time to watch Penny and ask questions / look for feedback. PM’s have also been very thoughtful. In watching/reflecting the video I think I may have been helpful to have more footage of our “process” .... My You tube page has one of earlier place training and one for beginning the “hold” command for retrieve. 

I am in the process of up-loading a _5 month old with 4 weeks less training than Penny._ That might shed the light on a bit more process.


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

Very cool video and nice work, Danielle! I actually have seen someone "re-post" the link on another retriever forum, but with no further explanation as to how you actually use the marker / clicker training in your program. Building such a sound base with young dogs surely will pay dividends when you proceed through the more advanced levels of training since the dog is working with you and has confidence in what you are asking it to do will result in positive reinforcement for doing the right thing. IMHO 

Keep the videos coming!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hey Danielle,
> 
> Cool comments. The first exposure I got to clicker training was my old buddy Harry Harper, aka "Blast" whom some old timers may recall. Harry's additional comment was that *the human voice has way too many inconsistencies in terms of what the dog hears - volume, tone, pitch, etc. Too much emotion can be imparted with the voice, changing the potential message delivered to the dog. * The clicker sound is consistent regardless.
> 
> ...


Okay this is interesting because with Rascal we are starting to do "Sit" and my husband gets a crisper response than I do and he made a similar comment to me...I wanted to smack him, but he was right...sometimes puppy training is fun, sometimes its frustrating, especially when your husband shows you up! 

Interesting...

Lainee


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay Dufour said:


> Ok ,so it was a retriever in the video,and she was throwing stuff for it...and giving hand signals ect.......and doing very nicely.I'm am not downing anything at all.....even though I don't care to argue with any of the internet experts.


I would think this early training is a "positive" thing, if anything it is teaching the puppy to pay attention and how to learn and think. Will the clicker be used in field work (think basics and transition or even FF/CC) - probably not, but it does create a foundation...now if someone was trying to tell me they could do nothing but clicker training and achieve a FC/AFC I'd laugh my arse off...but for basic OB and teaching basic concepts for field...I think it's a neat idea....someone send me a clicker, I'll give it a go with my Rascal who is 9 weeks...can't hurt, it's just OB work!

FOM


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

FOM said:


> I would think this early training is a "positive" thing, if anything *it is teaching the puppy* to pay attention and how to learn and think. Will the clicker be used in field work (think basics and transition or even FF/CC) - probably not, but it does create a foundation...now if someone was trying to tell me they could do nothing but clicker training and achieve a FC/AFC I'd laugh my arse off...but for basic OB and teaching basic concepts for field...I think it's a neat idea....someone send me a clicker, I'll give it a go with my Rascal who is 9 weeks...can't hurt, it's just OB work!
> 
> FOM


That's how I view it. Don't forget, Jackie Mertens on her DVD teaches sit, here, heel, etc using treats to train. Different than clicker training, but still positive.

Just because you clicker train in the teaching phase doesn't preclude formalizing OB later. When I formalize I want to be able to apply praise and corrections at the right time. I don't think I can be consistent enough with my voice, and I don't think I can handle a lead, a collar, and a clicker. That's why I'm going to make the tone on the collar the "conditioned reinforcer" or "marker." I just wish the tone button was a little more prominent on the transmitter... I have the old pro-100 and the tone is just a little button on top.


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

FOM said:


> Okay this is interesting because with Rascal we are starting to do "Sit" and my husband gets a crisper response than I do and *he made a similar comment to me...I wanted to smack him*, but he was right...sometimes puppy training is fun, sometimes its frustrating, especially when your husband shows you up!
> 
> Interesting...
> 
> Lainee


Crap, back to sensitivity training for me!


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## bstfren (Apr 27, 2006)

Loved the Video.....

For those Interested in renting a video about Clicker training or other field video's
check out...... www.BowWowFlix.com

Lots of video's on field, obed, etc....


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

bstfren said:


> Loved the Video.....
> 
> For those Interested in renting a video about Clicker training or other field video's
> check out...... www.BowWowFlix.com
> ...


Thanks ... Or .... They can check out some other videos for free on my You Tube page  In response to comments and questions - I just put one up about “Butter” 5 months old (one month older than Penny) and 1 month shy of training.... she is more “hyper” and I did this one with no music and tried to type some better process explanations.

http://youtu.be/7WpshbG7KF0


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

Very nice reminds me of you ng dog training with the first pro I worked for. Looks like you have good student as well.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Evan said:


> At 7 months of age, and already in FF, his obedience should have been formalized. Corporal pressure should be a part of upholding your obedience standards. That would be true of any dog, but especially of a hot rod.
> 
> Force fetch is, in itself, a pressure conditioning process. That tends to go much better for dogs that already function in a stable manner under pressure and distraction. Those are benefits of formal obedience.
> 
> Evan


who said his obedience hadnt been formalized?


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Evan said:


> That's fine. I wasn't really commenting on OC vs. anything. My offering was only intended to provide alternative suggestions for Gatorb's "wound up" retriever.
> 
> Evan


yeah i wasnt looking for help with this particular dog. He's fine. just a higher octane than my others. i was just asking what experience they had with the clicker and a dog with lots of energy.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

runnindawgz said:


> << Side note >> I think I will post a video of my Jack Russell Terrier and I doing a “free shaping” exercise .. its one of his favorite things to do  ... this would be a fun way for such a young rambunctious dog to get started becoming a focused "thinking” type of dog.
> 
> 
> 
> GatorB ~ I think that it will help with your dogs concentration but... you *MUST take time to educate yourself first and have patience above all. *


thanks. yeah im just wondering for future dogs. ive got one guy close by the clicker trained a couple of his boykins through OB.

id like to see the jack russell video (as they're all wild) lol....


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm a big advocate of clicker training for pups, so this is nice to see such a video.

The next phase will be to transition the reinforcement schedule and type of reinforcer to the field, starting when birds are brought into the mix. A 4 month old ought be on birds IMHO. 

Good luck with the transitioning.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gatorb said:


> yeah i wasnt looking for help with this particular dog. He's fine. just a higher octane than my others. i was just asking what experience they had with the clicker and a dog with lots of energy.


My post was a reaction to "What are any of y'alls experiences clicker training with a real wound up pup?" Rather than a clicker as a focus, I reacted to the 'wound up pup' reference. That type of inquiry is usually about control issues; aka obedience. I also think what might be done with a high energy pet breed may not be an automatic cross over for the treatment of a bird crazy retriever. So, my comment approached the behavior. Just tryin' to help!

Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's a clicker training video that's been on here before. Some in some areas have tried to badmouth "collar trainers" with this video as support. Here's the funny thing. I bet if you asked Danielle if she's a "collar trainer", she'd say she's not. I bet if you asked Danielle if she's a "clicker trainer", she'd say she's not. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZm3AHT95E

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65943&highlight=bag+cougar


One of the things that has bugged me quite a bit about training mentalities and camps is the "us versus them" mentality that can occur. What's very refreshing about this example that Danielle has brought up is that she is NOT condemning FF, she is not condemning indirect pressure, she is not condemning Carr-type methodologies. She's just showing a cool way to be a smart trainer and teach a young dog some positive stuff.

There have been plenty of folks who have chosen to try and make it black and white, stating that their way is better and the other way is wrong. My read on Danielle's stuff, is that she's open to training methodologies to train a dog - WITHOUT getting hung up in labels or camps.

That's huge! 

And for any of you that attend a solid seminar or workshop by any of the knowledgeable pros, you'll find that they too, are rarely jammed into a box where they always want to try it one way for all shapes and sizes. 

In the words of Mike Lardy.... "There is no set formula".

Chris


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

Great post, Chris. It just comes down to doing what works best for you, your particular dog and your situation. I sure learned something today by watching the video...


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## Ricky Elston (Nov 25, 2004)

what's not to like? it's a lil puppy that is well advanced for its age....a pup that has learned to learn ( and enjoys it)!


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## Scott Lynch (Nov 21, 2011)

runnindawgz said:


> For the record ... I am not a “clicker trainer” I use it as one tool for basic’s confidence, and problem solving at a young age.


Can you further elaborate on problem solving that you involve the clicker on? I watched the video but didn't really catch that part.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ever snapped your fingernails together on the top of a little kids head? stops them dead in their tracks. Uncle used to do that to me all the time. The noise is like hitting rocks together under water. 

put your fingers together like you're going to flick a booger. put the fingernail from your middle finger under your thumb and "click" them back and forth. Now, press your "clicking" nails on the top of your head. Press down just hard enough so you can still click your fingernails.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Very nice Danielle. I have owned and trained retrievers for 13 years. I have always believed in the traditional "retriever training" methods that most successful field trial trainers use. I have always been impressed with Danielle's puppies and how advanced they are yet have a great attitude. Because of this, I decided to place a pup with her. I have a very open mind when it comes to training dogs. If it works, I'm all for it. Don't knock it til' you try it folks.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Scott Lynch said:


> Can you further elaborate on problem solving that you involve the clicker on? I watched the video but didn't really catch that part.


I think that the video shows more of the product vs. the process. The basic idea would be like this: You put the platform down and have pup around. Pup gets close to platform and you click/treat. Pup puts paw on the platform and you click/treat. Pup gets on the platform, click. Pup stays on platform, click. If the pup gets off, no click, no treat. The pup has to figure out (problem solve) why you are clicking and treating for. Pup will try different things and not get the click. You get the dog thinking and trying to figure out what it is you want and what gets them the reward. In this example, being on the platform gets the reward. Translation to the field (eventually): if I am steady until I am sent, I will get my reward (a bird/retrieve in this case). 

I was just talking the other day with a pro regarding "positive" training methods and field training. She mentioned that some pups that she started with clickers and such caught on faster when pressure is introduced (and with great attitudes). The pro was interested in how I trained sit. I replied: with a cookie  And her response: so now he sits anywhere on command with just a little "good dog" every once and awhile. Yup! I think it has to do with teaching the dog how to learn and how to respond to training. Personally, I have never used a clicker, but that is just because I can't handle that many things at one time. I use "yes" or "good." 

Either way, I can't wait to see Penny's progression. She is adorable!


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

PhilBernardi said:


> A 4 month old ought be on birds IMHO.
> 
> Good luck with the transitioning.


As I mentioned in an earlier post: Penny gets birds and marks thrown 2 - 3 X a week. She has been on Dove, Ducks, and pheasants..... oh and a “coot”  She is a VERY nice marking pup - runs HARD, front foots most of them and hits um hard when she gets there.... 



Chris Atkinson said:


> I bet if you asked Danielle if she's a "collar trainer", she'd say she's not. I bet if you asked Danielle if she's a "clicker trainer", she'd say she's not.
> 
> Danielle has brought up is that she is NOT condemning FF, she is not condemning indirect pressure, she is not condemning Carr-type methodologies. She's just showing a cool way to be a smart trainer and teach a young dog some positive stuff.
> 
> ...


Chris, you rock... I certainly knew this thread would stir a topic but never wanted it to be a “defend Danielle” campaign LOL.... None the less thank you... indeed I am not a clicker or a collar trainer... just a trainer that tries to do what works



Scott Lynch said:


> Can you further elaborate on problem solving that you involve the clicker on? I watched the video but didn't really catch that part.


Well, if you are familiar with O.C. (Operant Conditioning) you would know that there is no force to perform any task. The dog must “Figure out” what to do on its own (we can aid with luring or target training) ... In this video it is pretty clear that Penny has figured out:

1) she must go to the board
2) she must sit on the board
3) she must retrieve the item and the BIGGEST one ... 
4) she must HOLD the item in her mouth for an extended period of time. 

NO verbal “commands” are given during the learning (or problem solving) phase ... only the behaviors we like are marked and rewarded for. Once we get the finished product, we ten tell the dog what those behaviors are “called” in our english vocabulary (which dogs do not speak). In training we do our best to link repetitious behaviors to words.

If you notice a few times throughout the clip she “puts down” or drops the dumb bell.. Promptly picking it up shows me that she has solved this problem in her own understanding “I must hold this thing or I will not hear the marker and I will not receive my treat.” 

If you notice also, she will often lift her paw when I take the item. Penny has chained the delivery with the paw lift. I DO NOT like this ... but, she is a 4 month old puppy and patience is a virtue. So over time, my *standard *will adjust and slowly I will mark only those deliveries without the foot lift. She will learn that it is the “clean” delivery that offers reward.

Some of the behaviors are black and white (like sit - either you are sitting or you are not) but complex behaviors or chained behaviors (go to it, pick it up, bring it back, hold it, sit and continue to hold it)... must be broken down into individual tasks and sometimes even pieces of tasks. 

*For Hold* I will 1st mark _ANY interaction with the dumb-bell _(even just touching a nose to it). 

Gradually the level of standard changes and out of desire to solve the problem the dog then puts teeth on in .... BINGO! From there it may lift it off of the ground when a marker/reward is no longer offered for mouthing the item... from there will will proceed to carry it, and a tough one is to SIT while holding it. All fo this was gradually “figured out” by my puppy.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Evan said:


> I also think what might be done with a high energy pet breed may not be an automatic cross over for the treatment of a bird crazy retriever.
> 
> Evan


i too have questions about that...

And I guess that was the point of my first question. 

I shouldnt have mentioned my latest pup as an example...i follow your program as close to the letter as i think i can (via the video's and manuals).


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Danielle,

There's more behind my involvement in this thread.

You can handle your own defense with no problem. I am confident of that.

Some folks have tried to build a case, both on RTF and elsewhere that positive training discussions get bashed and ridiculed. I want to point out that I think the primary reason this nonsense exists, is the messages frequently get mixed. 

What's refreshing about this thread is that you have shown that you are not trying to condemn the "standard" American Field Retriever methods. You are just doing what works and using methods that give results without painting them with a label. (Well, other than your opening post about "clicker haters" or whatever was there...  )

But the part in parenthesis underscores the point. I think moreso than "clicker haters", the irritation folks have had with clicker or positive discussions has been the typical inclusion of: anti-FF, anti-indirect pressure, anti-collar conditioning, anti-American Field Trial....etc.

This one is devoid of that nonsense.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I honestly don't see how anyone could disparage what Danielle's done with that pup. She even says herself there are plenty of ways to get a pup enthused about learning how to learn and problem-solve, and shows how well this method can work. I was glad to see it and thought it was a very well done video. My first intro to clickers was pretty bad. I was at the stage where I thought I knew everything, and took my pup to a puppy kindergarten class at our local club. The instructor was a militant all-positive clicker trainer (and took an instant dislike to me when I told her my goal was basic puppy obedience in preparation for FF). I also felt like being in that class with clickers going off all the time just confused and distracted my pup and even practicing alone with her at home, I couldn't ever get the hang of the timing. I did stick out the class but after the 3rd wk. discontinued trying to use the clicker at home. In retrospect, I was blaming the lack of results on my own dog and the rest of the class, because that particular instructor, while she may have gotten good results on her own dogs, was just not a good teacher.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Danielle, what are your goals with Butter? She looked very much like a pup I'm training now albeit 2 months younger. Will she get trained for retrieving? Play any of our games?

I'd love to see a video of her every month as her training progresses.

I liked her. Thought if she gets some focus she could be good. Actually, I liked them both but the first one had more polish and the 2nd one was more wild. 

Hope they both turn out.


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

I would love to train with you. I use Verbal marking, but I also use Collars. Would like to talk with you sometime. 
Tony


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Very nice job and I don't doubt you can train with clicker. Your pup looks happy and enthusiastic. Like that fellow stated, there is more than 1 way to train a dog and you don't have to be cruel about it. Problem with my pup he would eat your hand off for those treats and forget you even clicked. He is hyper and a gogetter!!!!! I had to stop treats at about 2-3 months. At 6 months he is steady but excited. Doing doubles and longish marks which we are stretching. For single marks we are following D. Voigt's stand alones and just starting to send back. He is just starting to get cc (done with sit) and before that we have used the buzzer on the collar for some training. I would dare say some dogs would not respond to that type of training. IMHO. But I see your dog has. Best of luck to you and thanks for sharing!!


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Very well done Danielle.

I'm more curious how you make that transition. As most trainers on here have noticed, the average or green horn trainer typically has difficult between phases of training in a traditional pressure only method. Things like transitioning a formalized correction for sit to an ecollar correct to then when to use it in the field. Also with now the dog is FF, transitioning to back piles or when to use or how to apply pressure.

How do you go from obedience using the marker to then transition into using pressure? Is it done in a blend in blend out process of the marker and pressure? How long would you use the clicker or is it an almost infinate amount of time throughout the dogs training progress into high level retrieve concepts, blinds, etc?


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

leo455 said:


> I would love to train with you. I use Verbal marking, but I also use Collars. Would like to talk with you sometime.
> Tony


ANY TIME! Thanks 



TroyFeeken said:


> Very well done Danielle.
> 
> I'm more curious how you make that transition. As most trainers on here have noticed, the average or green horn trainer typically has difficult between phases of training in a traditional pressure only method. Things like transitioning a formalized correction for sit to an ecollar correct to then when to use it in the field. Also with now the dog is FF, transitioning to back piles or when to use or how to apply pressure.
> 
> ...


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

runnindawgz said:


> training young pups to whistle stop at a great distance by use of a _tennis ball_. As far as I can throw it (or use the “chuck-it”).... I can reward a puppy for a proper whistle sit at a great distance. the “punishment” for not sitting or sitting crooked or not looking at me .. is no tennis ball is thrown.



I picked up this same tip From RMilner to "tighten" up my dogs remote sit and turn to look at me. Once he realized hey the sooner I sit and give him a look the sooner I might get that tennis ball....well things just got better.

I never got a "chuck-it" to do that but I will!


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Didn't get to see you guys last weekend, they sent master B over to Bennetsville...after I drove right by it on the way to Cheraw.grrrrr Wasn't there long anyway that first series was a bear so we got a free pass home lol.


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## dogshom (Mar 16, 2010)

Great video Danielle! Would love to see more. My lab is mostly an agility dog and I used a clicker tons when he was a pup. I still use it when I'm teaching something new-not for everything, but I was totally pleased with the results. It will be interesting to see your transition to FF. I bet she will learn quicker and keep her great attitude throughout. I believe the clicker can be a great tool for a lot of field trainers, the literature just isn't out yet as it's a fairly new field.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Danielle, what are your goals with Butter? She looked very much like a pup I'm training now albeit 2 months younger. Will she get trained for retrieving? Play any of our games?
> 
> I'd love to see a video of her every month as her training progresses.
> 
> ...


Howard, not Danielle, but Butter is my pup. She's out of Taylorslab Magic Trick and I bought her to run field trials. I have two males currently, one 3, the other 5. It's time for another female in the stable. I'm not sure what Butter's future holds at this point but we'll see. I put her with Danielle to try something different. I've always liked her thinking "outside of the box" training methods and wanted to give her a chance with one of my pups. I'm very happy with the results so far.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Good luck with her Brian.

I liked what I saw of her attitude in the video.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Thanks Howard.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

runnindawgz said:


> For all you clicker “haters”
> 
> http://youtu.be/pyys0flPFeo
> 
> ...


Danielle After all this conversation in this thread I am anxious to see how your pup will move along and how you keep training him using the clicker. Your opening statement "For all you clicker haters"  I think you probably know by now that people werenot as oppossed to clicker training as much as the application and how it is going to work through transition and assist your dog in FT or HRC. Do you have to revert to our way of training when you can no longer use the clicker.? There are many questions I have regarding the use of a clicker. For one we can't use a clicker at an HRC event or out hunting. So I am saying to you at what point do you stop using the clicker? Like I say please keep us apprised of how you handle each stage of training, ff, cc and to the field. I myself would be interested. My 2 year old is ff, cc but we only use the buzzer on the collar and get good results. However my pup is learning cc quick as he did not respond well to the buzzer. Rather than disgress I would like very much for all of us on RTF if you would let us know how you make out with training this way! Thanks again for sharing!!


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

_Well, if you are familiar with O.C. (Operant Conditioning) you would know that there is no force to perform any task._

This is not correct. 

"Force" is part of OC concept and practice.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Danielle After all this conversation in this thread I am anxious to see how your pup will move along and how you keep training him using the clicker. Your opening statement "For all you clicker haters"  I think you probably know by now that people werenot as oppossed to clicker training as much as the application and how it is going to work through transition and assist your dog in FT or HRC. *Do you have to revert to our way of training when you can no longer use the clicker.? There are many questions I have regarding the use of a clicker. For one we can't use a clicker at an HRC event or out hunting. So I am saying to you at what point do you stop using the clicker?* Like I say please keep us apprised of how you handle each stage of training, ff, cc and to the field. I myself would be interested. My 2 year old is ff, cc but we only use the buzzer on the collar and get good results. However my pup is learning cc quick as he did not respond well to the buzzer. Rather than disgress I would like very much for all of us on RTF if you would let us know how you make out with training this way! Thanks again for sharing!!


I know now that should have said “sceptics” not “haters” 

... And, I believe I have addressed most of your questions as responses to other’s similar questions in previous areas of this thread ... 

But the main one that keeps coming up this this : 
*
“WHEN DO YOU STOP USING A CLICKER?” *

well, I have to answer that question with another question....

*“WHEN DO YOU STOP USING YOUR ELECTRIC COLLAR?”*

....a clicker is used to make a sound that marks a behavior that the dog will be rewarded for with food, praise, tennis ball etc.... 

It is a TEACHING tool. Nothing more than that. 

Used properly any tool can be a good asset , & used inappropriately: _useless_ (like a poorly used slip chain or e - collar only a clicker causes no harm). 

No, I can not bring one to a hunt test, but I can’t bring my e-collar either. Just another training tool in the tool box that must be left at home (with my prong collars, slip chains. leads, treats). 

Thank you and from previous experiences... I can tell you how I have made out "training this way" (utilizing early marker training and positive reenforcement) with a few other young dogs: 

* A 2 year old MH with derby placement & 3 obedience titles, and multiple agility titles. 
* A 19 month old SH with 2 obedience titles at 23 months and 3 passes toward a third plus 1 MH pass.
* 19 month old SH (as of last weekend) with a derby JAM (out of 2 run).

It was a leap of faith posting this here and I thank everyone who has offered ... _ummmm_.... I’ll call it “support" for lack of better term, and ESPECIALLY those that has brought forward _great questions_ as well as some “healthy” and “freindly” opposing views.

I have put a page on my web site dedicated to Penny’s training videos.
http://www.completelyk9.com/multimedia.html

I most likely will not post each one separately here on RTF .. so please keep an eye on the site if you would like to folllow along. She is only 4 months so I am sure I’ll have lots of fun withe camera especially now that she has gone “Internet Viral.” with 317 views of the video in 1 day! WOW. 

This has been a “wild ride” thread and a lot of fun to discuss.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

OK - agreed, but, In terms of using O.C. for marker training we are utilizing *Positive reinforcement* or *negative reenforces* to make the probability of a behavior increase. 

Vs. use of Positive punishment or negative punishment which is O.C. agreed 100% but not utilized in marker training unless you are considering NRM’s ... Probably another very healthy discussion great for a new thread 

So, in short - my statement was incorrect


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

I've actually wrote an email to Morgan Spector a few years back challenging him to train a dog with clicker-only training methods to win a Grand test or National Field Trial.

Suffice it to say, he never took me up on my offer. :lol:

Again, I'm a supporter of clicker training for pups who are to be HRC or AKC testers and hunters. I support it (and have used it) because it allows a maturing dog the opportunity to learn (and to learn how to learn) under non-aversive conditions. It helps with conditioning a healthy attitude and a positive trusting relationship between dog and trainer.

But when the pressure of running longer and more complex drills come into being, when the goals of advance training and HRC/FT tests are before us, and when the intense excitment of hunting starts to overwhelm even the most well trained dog, clicker-only training gets set aside.

It's a tool, as noted. And IMHO (and experience), one that is not applicable when we get to advanced training and live hunting. By "not applicable", I mean the difficulty in marking behavior at a distance; whether behavior needs to be marked at a distance; and the need to punish unwanted behavior (which absolutely will occur) as part of the shaping process. 

When Spector or others win at the advanced level of HRC or AKC with positive-only training many others will take note and jump on board. And I'm confident that the positive-only trainers will never achieve that goal.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

*Originally Posted by runnindawgz 
training young pups to whistle stop at a great distance by use of a tennis ball. As far as I can throw it (or use the “chuck-it”).... I can reward a puppy for a proper whistle sit at a great distance. the “punishment” for not sitting or sitting crooked or not looking at me .. is no tennis ball is thrown. *

Does the reward need to be immediate? B/c when I did this with my 6 month DK pup, after 3 seconds he got up and ran away to do something else.

If the reward does need to be immediate - how do you go about lengthening the time?


What would be the appropiate response at this point? 
He sure did show me! 
I walked away and didn't acknowledge him until he came to me and if I remember correctly it was a loooong while. 

Maybe I need more exposure to the training concepts - I can only see positive only training as a way to shape - not train.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I've tried the clicker with small pups and a treat to get them going, but I just don't care for the constant treating when they are older. Do clicker people always continue with the treats or do some use the clicker as the reward?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

pixiebee said:


> Does the reward need to be immediate? B/c when I did this with my 6 month DK pup, after 3 seconds he got up and ran away to do something else.
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

I have never used a clicker but I use a very similar method with my young dogs just never called it clicker training. My big question is who taught my girlfriend this method because she thinks she has me trained and I am starting to believe her. Who else has this problem? How do I fight it?


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

pixiebee said:


> *Originally Posted by runnindawgz
> training young pups to whistle stop at a great distance by use of a tennis ball. As far as I can throw it (or use the “chuck-it”).... I can reward a puppy for a proper whistle sit at a great distance. the “punishment” for not sitting or sitting crooked or not looking at me .. is no tennis ball is thrown. *
> 
> Does the reward need to be immediate?
> ...



Yes at first... if you want to increase duration do it gradually ... mark & reward for successive approximations of the desired finished behavior. 

Shaping vs. training .... begin another thread perhaps? 




ErinsEdge said:


> Do clicker people always continue with the treats or do some use the clicker as the reward?


No a “click” is not a reward - a reward is a reward.. the mark is just that it indicated that the behavior was the “right one” and thats the one to be repeated / thats the one that will earn the reward.



pixiebee said:


> I wouldn't use the term "immediate" for the timing of the reward; but it does need to be done promptly.
> 
> 
> * See above... the connection if IMMEDIATE mark followed by immediate reward at the beginning stages is imperative... I will mention again, successive approximations and build up to your desired goal.*
> ...


Thanks to everyone for continuing the “conversation” and asking questions ... as I have spent a LOT of time here I am feeling a bit repetitive at this point. I am hoping to host a small seminar this Fall at our property...and .. encourage you to be open minded to some alternative positive ways to train ... be it clicker or other and especially for foundation / puppy work (AGAIN - which is what we are talking about here...). Happy Training!


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

My PM box is a bit over-whelming right now. Please “remind” me if you are still waiting for a response. 

Thanks guys!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> My PM box is a bit over-whelming right now. Please “remind” me if you are still waiting for a response.
> 
> Thanks guys!


Sorry guys, nobody's done anything wrong, but Danielle's got a business to run and has been getting hammered by requests and notes.

We're locking this on Danielle's request.

Thanks, Chris


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