# Constructing Marks and Blinds



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Someone started a thread entitled "I want to learn". I suggested that we use a photo and construct marks. However, it became apparent to me rather quickly, that I had not given enough thought to the task. So, I thought it best to start fresh. Here is a photo. I have placed a line and wind direction on the photo. (If someone can remind me how to import the photo so that there is no need to click it and toggle back and forth between photo and text, I would appreciate it.) At any rate, let's assume the following: the middle ridge is too far to place a bird, but all other places in the photo are reasonable; the dog will not be out of sight - unless it is directly behind one of the many trees; there are no safety issues in the field. Also, let's assume that we have enough cover to hide a bird, but not so much cover as to make a test impossible. 

When you judge, you will find that Field Trials are like Goldilocks. Instead of this porridge is too hot, this is too cold, this is just right, you will be thinking: "this cover is too high, this cover is too low, this cover is just right" - or "this water is too high, this water is too low, this water is just right." If you want to make it difficult for the dogs, but still be able to see them (and thus judge them), you are looking for things to be just right - and that is often very hard.

At any rate, here is our field. 









I want to describe the process that I prefer when I am asked to judge (obviously, my co-judge has considerable influence on this process). First, I ask the club to show me where they want me to be. I typically do not get out of the car until I have been shown my options (and sometimes there are no options). One field generally catches my eye, and after the tour is complete, I will say "I like this one." Then I will get out of the car, and find a place to - at least initially - place the line.

What is my *first* consideration? (And this is true regardless of the stake - Open, Am, Qualifying, or Derby)


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I'll try to get this started.
1. Safety of the dogs and competitors


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

3. Prevailing wind - indicated.
2. Position of early morning sun - presumed accounted for in placement of the line.

(I realized I had the priority wrong.)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok. Let's assume safety is not an issue - yet. Remember, we have just picked a potential spot to run. We will walk the field later. 

I would agree with GD. I want to take into consideration: (a) Wind; and (b) sun position.

Because we are starting from the beginning, why are (a) Wind direction; and (b) sun position so important to us?


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## miketuggle (Aug 21, 2014)

Sun position can be a factor. 

I once had a dog in a JH test where the sun was a factor. Did you ever walk in to a dark movie theater after being out in the sun? That's what the dogs faced on the right hand bird that landed in _deep _shade.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

How do you control for sun when position is going to change over the period of time u will be running that series? The dog run at 8 will not see the same as the dog run at noon.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Conditions change during a test. That's life. The dogs must see the guns and the birds. So, you make sure that sun position does not prevent the dogs from seeing guns and birds. But, over the course of a day, lighting conditions will change and the visibility of the guns and birds will change. Typically, when the sun is directly overhead, both guns and birds tend to be washed out. There is nothing you can do about that.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Sun- 
If in dogs eyes - can't see mark.
Creates shadows that move throughout the day - may change visibility of guns/marks as day goes on. 
If guns are back lit, they are hard to see and this gets better as the sun gets higher so changes the test for the later dogs. 
The sun always rises in the east and sets in the west. 

Wind-
Big, big influence on a dog whether marks or blinds. 
May give away bird location-variable wind may give away for some dogs only.
Wind at your back for marks allows for some variability with out drastically changing the test. 
Starting with a cross wind, may give you a wind in your face if direction changes. 

Both sun/shadows and wind can dramatically change a test as the day goes on (bigger the stake, the longer it takes, the chance of conditions changing). It is good to minimize the impact of a change on your test.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

If you are judging a large (80+) Open, you are going to be running all day. It is impossible to ensure that during the course of a day that all dogs will run under the same conditions. Early in a test, scenting is typically poor - there is not enough dog/bird scent to hold the dogs in the Area of Fall (AOF). As the test goes on, dragback, flyer feather drift start to influence dog behavior. So, it is with lighting. It will change. Some dogs will have better lighting conditions, some will have worse. I have no power over that. My job is to make sure that the dogs see guns and birds. If the sun position prevents that (for example, I am running into the east, and the sun is visible), then I have a problem that I can address. If sun position makes it harder to see guns and birds (for example, when sun is overhead, and guns and birds are washed out), I am stuck. Don't get hung up over things that you cannot change.


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## miketuggle (Aug 21, 2014)

Sue and Ted are both right and it really is the "luck of the draw." In my post above, it was a really good field but maybe 5-6 of the first few dogs washed out because of the lighting next to the woods. It was much darker there, an hour earlier, than my photo shows.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

1st consideration would be angle of sun @ 8AM followed VERY closely by predicted wind direction and speed.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

miketuggle said:


> Sue and Ted are both right and it really is the "luck of the draw." In my post above, it was a really good field but maybe 5-6 of the first few dogs washed out because of the lighting next to the woods. It was much darker there, an hour earlier, than my photo shows.


I'll disagree with the luck of the draw, just a bit. If you set up facing directly into the sun, you know the early dogs will not see the gun. If you set up a gun under a tree, that is on the edge of a shadow, you can know at that moment whether the gun will be in a shadow in 30 minutes. You know that in the Northern hemisphere that running facing north will give you the best chance of avoiding backlit (and poorly visible) guns. You can't stop the earth from spinning, but there are some things you may be able to do to minimize the impact on the dogs.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Could you do this setup? or is the wind going to be a factor? And what order is possible w/ these marks or are they totally wrong? THX


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Let's stay on task. 

First, we would give consideration as to sun position. Remember that there are times when you can run directly into the sun. For example, when it is overcast, and the sun is not visible. Or when a tree line prevents the sun from being an issue for dogs facing east or west. But, other than that, let's move on.

Second, we consider wind. I believe that dogs find birds by getting to the Area of Fall (AOF) and then scenting them. They get to the AOF because they are good markers (natural ability), good liners (trained ability), or a combination of both. Once they get to the AOF, their noses take over. If you allow the dogs to wind your marks when they are not in the AOF, you are making your marks too easy.  So, by and large, you want your birds to be down wind - or wind protected. So, when we start constructing marks, we need to think about wind.

Ok, I am in the field. I have found a likely place to have the line. Now, I like to take five or ten minutes to simply stare at the field and consider the terrain. I don't want to talk to my co-judge or anyone else. I just want to let the field sink into me. What things am I considering when I think about marks?

We are not placing any birds in the field yet. We are just thinking. What elements of the terrain need to be considered?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> View attachment 22097
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are no marks in the field. We are in the process of constructing them.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

One thing no one has mentioned when picking a field or where to run from is time management


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

• slope/grade of the terrain ... direction and degree.

• low spots which will cause the dog to lose sight of his destination.

• draws/gullies which can cause the dog to alter his course.

• angled strips of cover or row crops which can cause the dog to alter his course.

• obstacle the dog may want to avoid.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd, before we worry about traffic, time of test, etc. Let's build the marks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Following up on what JS wrote, when I look at this field there are several terrain features that I notice. First, the slope tends to push dogs left (see diagram with yellow line below). Second, there are a number of barriers (see red stars in diagram below). Some a dog can run around (single trees or clusters), others are essentially a wall to the dogs (far tree line)


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted, if this is jacked up PM me and I'll delete it.

I am looking for any terrain features that would cause a dog to "lose his line" on the way to his mark. These might include sloping land, heavy cover, a ditch, road or other linear feature, water or other obstacles. Knowing what we know about what a dog "might" naturally do with each of these elements (factors) is important as it will help us determine in our mind the over-riding objective... "Put the bird where the dog is not likely to go". If at all possible we want these various elements all pointing in the same direction. In other words, I don't want my factors to cancel each other out. 

In this field - for instance, it looks like the slope of the land might cause a dog on the left side of the field to fade left, and if I'm seeing it correctly, they might "wrap around" those cedar trees, causing them to go even more left.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I also give some thought as to where I think dogs will want to go. Like us, they prefer the easy path to the hard one. So, I am always looking for some place for the dogs to run aimlessly. That area, is demarcated in the green square in the box below.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok, I have told you what I am looking for when I sit down in a field. Now, with that information in hand, put your best single mark in the field. Do not worry about interaction with other birds, retiring, etc. First, build the mark. 

Remember the following general principles:
1. Make the bird difficult to wind unless the dog right on top of it
2. Make it difficult to get to a place where the dog can wind the bird

Ignore issues of safety for the moment.
Do not get distracted by issues of lighting, etc.
Build a mark

After you have constructed a mark in your mind, you will go into the field and determine whether the mark is practicable and safe.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> One thing no one has mentioned when picking a field or where to run from is time management


While some of you - I hope - are busying playing with the diagram and constructing marks, I will turn to Todd's comment. 

I am judging in Memphis this April. The Monday before the trial, I will look at: 
- Weather reports 
- Sunrise, sunset times 
- Number of dog 

For example, my app tells me that on April 17, the sun will rise at 6:25 am and set at 7:34 pm. That means if the club is willing and mechanics are good, I can run dogs from 8 am to 6 pm. That is 10 hours of running time. I generally assume that if we are running at peak efficiency, I will lose 1.5 - 2 hours to no birds, rebirds, gun shift changes, etc. That means I have 8 hours to allocate to the actual running of dogs, or 480 minutes of running time. If I have 85 dogs entered, I will probably have 5 scratches. That leaves me with 80 dogs to run in 480 minutes. If I want to finish my first series on Friday - and I do - then that means my test cannot be longer than 8 minutes a dog. So, before I even see the grounds, I know that I must construct a test that will average 8 minutes a dog. 

To maximize my time efficiency, I will consider: traffic flow, positioning of holding blinds, calling "guns up" as the dog is returning, and telling handlers to pick up dogs that I believe are no longer in contention (rather then letting them to continue to run the test). But, with all of that in hand, I know when I enter the field that my test cannot be longer than 8 minutes per dog. If my test is longer than that, I am courting disaster. But, that is a lesson in time management, more than mark construction. But, when you judge, you must always consider time.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> While some of you - I hope - are busying playing with the diagram and constructing marks, I will turn to Todd's comment.
> 
> I am judging in Memphis this April. The Monday before the trial, I will look at:
> - Weather reports
> ...


6 Minutes.... not 8


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> Ok, I have told you what I am looking for when I sit down in a field. Now, with that information in hand, put your best single mark in the field. Do not worry about interaction with other birds, retiring, etc. First, build the mark.
> 
> Remember the following general principles:
> 1. Make the bird difficult to wind unless the dog right on top of it
> ...


Single mark: middle section showing 3 small trees angling back left to right along a depression just short of your green box. Bird thrown angle back right to left from the small tree in the green box landing on the upslope of the depression just inside the green box.
I would assume the dog would fall off toward the depression, pushing off the gun station and the depression funneling him deep of the mark if he doesn't hold his line. ( sorry, can't add lines )


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> 6 Minutes.... not 8



I thought that was too much time. Thanks for the catch.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> Single mark: middle section showing 3 small trees angling back left to right along a depression just short of your green box. Bird thrown angle back right to left from the small tree in the green box landing on the upslope of the depression just inside the green box.
> I would assume the dog would fall off toward the depression, pushing off the gun station and the depression funneling him deep of the mark if he doesn't hold his line. ( sorry, can't add lines )


a

GD - Can you put your mark on the diagram? I think it makes it easier for everyone to understand.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ted: Will you give any consideration to where you might run the second or third series blind when setting up your marks. Sorry if I am jumping the gun.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Golddogs said:


> Single mark: middle section showing 3 small trees angling back left to right along a depression just short of your green box. Bird thrown angle back right to left from the small tree in the green box landing on the upslope of the depression just inside the green box.
> I would assume the dog would fall off toward the depression, pushing off the gun station and the depression funneling him deep of the mark if he doesn't hold his line. ( sorry, can't add lines )


Was looking at the same general area but thinking that the line of trees would push the dogs to the right, into the green box and towards your bird. A bird thrown R to L landing behind the gap between the 2nd and 3rd tree would require the dog to fight the factors of the terrain and that tree "barrier" and take a fairly narrow slot to get into the AOF. Gunner retires behind the big cedar. Distance? 
Disclaimer - I'm not a FT judge and have limited experience running all age. But, enjoying the exercise.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

It's difficult to gage the distance and the ability to make a throw, but I like the tree line angling back l to r.

In the lefthand third of the photo, the tallest of the trees along that line that breaks the skyline the most ... just to the right of the base of that tree are 2 small cedars, one darker one that appears to be IN the treeline and another slightly larger just to the right that appears to be standing out a ways from the tree line.

IF it's possible to stand a gunner by that smaller cedar and make a nice high arcing throw back l to r along the treeline, breaking the skyline over that 2nd cedar. Retire the gunner in the treeline behind the smaller cedar.

Some dogs will mark the bird and follow right up that gap. Others will fall off the slope to the left and end up behind the gun, upwind of the bird.

I would use the flyer to further influence the latter. :razz:

JS


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Golddogs said:


> Single mark: middle section showing 3 small trees angling back left to right along a depression just short of your green box. Bird thrown angle back right to left from the small tree in the green box landing on the upslope of the depression just inside the green box.
> I would assume the dog would fall off toward the depression, pushing off the gun station and the depression funneling him deep of the mark if he doesn't hold his line. ( sorry, can't add lines )


Was looking at the same general area but thinking that the line of trees would push the dogs to the right, into the green box and towards your bird. A bird thrown R to L landing behind the gap between the 2nd and 3rd tree would require the dog to fight the factors of the terrain and that tree "barrier" and take a fairly narrow slot to get into the AOF. Gunner retires behind the big cedar. Distance? 
Disclaimer - I'm not a FT judge and have limited experience running all age. But, enjoying the exercise.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Ted: Will you give any consideration to where you might run the second or third series blind when setting up your marks. Sorry if I am jumping the gun.


Bon, I think you are jumping the gun. We are trying to construct marks for the moment. By and large, I construct my land blind as I am running the marks. That is, I like to see how the dogs are responding to the marks. During breaks in the action (re-bird, gun change, lunch, etc.) I will walk around and see if there are any good blinds that I can run through my marks - cross wind. With an 80 dog Open, my target is complete land marks on Friday. Land Blind and Water Blind on Saturday. Water Marks Sunday morning. So my primary focus is getting 80 dogs done on Friday.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

​GD, JS, to avoid confusion, can you draw your marks on the diagram?


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Regarding your post 21 within the green box, it's just a luck mark, especially if it's a retired gun.

Yes, the dogs are going to run all over hell because they don't have anything contrasting to give them the depth of the fall because it's so flat without landmarks to mark against.


Don


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

I'll try, but it would probably be quicker to print it out and mail it to you. 

JS


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

I marked an additional area with a green box that I think the dogs will want to go.

I marked a potential area I would like to put a mark in red. Depending on distances and where it can be thrown and retire.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Disclaimer - I'm not a FT judge and have limited experience running all age. But, enjoying the exercise.



GD: I think that understanding how marks are constructed will give you a better appreciation of what is happening at a FT.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> a
> 
> GD - Can you put your mark on the diagram? I think it makes it easier for everyone to understand.


I can try with some help.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> I marked an additional area with a green box that I think the dogs will want to go.
> 
> I marked a potential area I would like to put a mark in red. Depending on distances and where it can be thrown and retire.
> 
> View attachment 22102



Doug 

For discussion sake, you can go to the tree line (middle to right). You cannot go to the middle ridge on the left. I put a mark on the same line, but deep of yours.

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DSemple said:


> Regarding your post 21 within the green box, it's just a luck mark, especially if it's a retired gun.
> 
> Yes, the dogs are going to run all over hell because they don't have anything contrasting to give them the depth of the fall because it's so flat without landmarks to mark against.
> 
> ...


You would be amazed at how All Age dogs could mark a bird in that area.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> I marked an additional area with a green box that I think the dogs will want to go.
> 
> I marked a potential area I would like to put a mark in red. Depending on distances and where it can be thrown and retire.
> 
> View attachment 22102


Doug 

Tell us why you want to put a mark in the red area. 

Ted


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> a
> 
> GD - Can you put your mark on the diagram? I think it makes it easier for everyone to understand.


Best I can do.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> Best I can do.
> 
> View attachment 22104


That works. Why did you put your mark there?


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Doug
> 
> Tell us why you want to put a mark in the red area.
> 
> Ted


I was thinking to try avoiding putting one along the treeline where the dog can just run the tree line untill they find bird scent. Ideally I would like it to be just in front of the bush you are throwing from then the dogs are too deep to wind it running the treeline. May have to move the line to the left so the fall area is behind the small bush in front. 

I'm just thinking they wouldn't want to run directly to that area unless they knew there was a bird there.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> That works. Why did you put your mark there?


There appears to be a slight depression angling back to the horizon. Once the dog gets to about even with the middle small tree ( bush ), if he fails to hold his line and begin to climb he would fall off to the right following the depression and heading deep of the mark. The gun station would add some suction and going deep with the wind indicated would not aid unless he hooked left.

So if he does not hold his line, he has a couple ways to get into trouble. I also prefer to throw into the test. 

( still learning and appreciate the assignment )


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Doug
> 
> For discussion sake, you can go to the tree line (middle to right). You cannot go to the middle ridge on the left. I put a mark on the same line, but deep of yours.
> 
> ...


Are you trying to land it in that small slot or deliberately putting the tree in the foreground directly on line Ted?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is the mark I picked.
1: the true line to the bird involves a slot. Thus rewarding a trained dog.
2: a dog is faced with a decision at the snow filled depression. Avoid it & end up in the green box. Square it & get pushed left. Could compound that effect by putting a flyer station left.
3: angle up the hill to the bird. That hill will tend to push dogs left.
4: at the end dog is again faced with a decision. Run at the large cedar or bail out left or right. 

The back side of the hill & the cedar will prevent a dog from stumbling downwind & scenting the bird. Retiring the gun into the closest small cedar would further add difficulty.

My apologies for the sideways pic but my computer skills need as much work as my handling.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Assuming it's not 50 yards away, and assuming the gunner can adequately retire, this is an left to right in-throw placed far enough away from the tree line to allow the dog some room to "run around" behind it. 

Factors - stronger pulling left - placement of the gunner, grade of the ground, popping into open field and wrapping around the trees in the fore ground, squaring across the road vs. taking the angle, dog being over trained on "slots"

Factors pulling right (weaker) - running around the cover and deep, open spaces 

Thoughts?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Sorry for jumping ahead earlier! I chose this mark b/c if the dog ran out & fell victim of slope he would or might run short of the mark & have to hunt & maybe not in the right area. The dog has to hold his line out to the bird! Thanks for making us think!

Factors slope


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> That works. Why did you put your mark there?


 How about stepping out to the left ( no more than 30 feet) from the bush, angle back toward the tree line more and retire back to the bush. The factors would be the little gully in between and pushing right by the wind?
Ted, thank you for help. I just got my judges number back up and judged in February.

Jeff


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## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

Here is where I would consider a mark. The field pushes them left, the bush on the left near the gun will push them left, the rise in the distance will keep pushing them left and the wind will probably swirl in the far back corner keeping them left and making it hard to wind the bird.








I like this thread, thanks for starting it Ted.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think Doug and I are in general agreement about the area where we want our mark to be. Let me explain my process. 

*First*, I want my mark to be downwind. My mark is. 

*Second,* I want it to be difficult for a dog to line to my bird. If you look at the blue line in the attached photo, you can see that the line to the area of fall (AOF) is through a tight cluster of three trees/bushes. If the dog pushes to the right of the cluster it ends up in my green box "idiot flats". If it pushes to the right of the cluster, it ends up in Doug's idiot flats. Which I have added to my initial diagram. 

Doug and I both believe that the dogs will want to run in the green box areas - because the terrain is flat, the cover is lower than elsewhere, and this is more experience than anything else - it looks like somewhere lost dogs would like to roam. Once one dog hunts in idiot flats, it lays down dog scent (which can be as influential as bird scent) in causing a dog to hunt. The more dogs that hunt, the more dogs that hunt, and so it goes. 










*Third*, although the assignment was not for an All Age Mark. I want a place for the gun to retire. So, I would retire it behind the big tree at the top of the three tree triangle. 

So, that leads me to the following mark. It is hard to get depth correct. But, Doug is correct, you do not want the bird up against the far tree line. A lost dog will hit the tree line and run back and forth. If a bird is along the tree line, that lost dog will find it. Put the bird 50-75 yards from the tree line and it will run along the tree line like a maniac, and maybe never find a bird


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Here is the mark I picked.
> 1: the true line to the bird involves a slot. Thus rewarding a trained dog.
> 2: a dog is faced with a decision at the snow filled depression. Avoid it & end up in the green box. Square it & get pushed left. Could compound that effect by putting a flyer station left.
> 3: angle up the hill to the bird. That hill will tend to push dogs left.
> ...


Mark, my problem with your mark is that - for an All Age Dog - find a holding blind, find a mark. I think I could get an All Age dog to your holding blind. Once it finds the blind, it will set up a hunt and find a bird.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GD, ML - I have the same comment for both of you. You have placed the gunner in a place that - I think - it is easy for a dog to reach. Once a good dog finds a gun - or a holding blind - it will find a bird. So you must make it hard not only to find the bird - but the gun. Think of angles - shallow angles. Shallow angles are more likely to deflect a dog. Steep angles invite a dog to go directly. See attached diagram.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

JimB said:


> Here is where I would consider a mark. The field pushes them left, the bush on the left near the gun will push them left, the rise in the distance will keep pushing them left and the wind will probably swirl in the far back corner keeping them left and making it hard to wind the bird.
> View attachment 22108
> 
> 
> I like this thread, thanks for starting it Ted.



If you throw at a steeper back angle (see red line), small tree protects gun/holding blind, big tree provides wind protection for bird


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> View attachment 22106
> Assuming it's not 50 yards away, and assuming the gunner can adequately retire, this is an left to right in-throw placed far enough away from the tree line to allow the dog some room to "run around" behind it.
> 
> Factors - stronger pulling left - placement of the gunner, grade of the ground, popping into open field and wrapping around the trees in the fore ground, squaring across the road vs. taking the angle, dog being over trained on "slots"
> ...



I think I could line an All Age dog along blue line. Once there, dog will hunt along cover line, find bird, bird boy path, or holding blind. See diagram


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Think of this as another mark. Trees create a barrier. See yellow line. You cannot wind bird from near side of cover line. Dogs that flare right end up running around in idiot flats (Green Box). Dogs that flare left, keep going straight to nowhere, or perhaps veer right. If they veer right, there is a good chance that they run the road through the slot in the cover line.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

labsforme said:


> How about stepping out to the left ( no more than 30 feet) from the bush, angle back toward the tree line more and retire back to the bush. The factors would be the little gully in between and pushing right by the wind?
> Ted, thank you for help. I just got my judges number back up and judged in February.
> 
> Jeff


A diagram is very helpful in these discussions


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## Keith S. (May 6, 2005)

Ted are we assuming the dog can see where the bird hits the ground behind the trees? It looks like the picture is taken from inside a truck, about 5-6 ft in the air, from the dogs level it might not be able to see where it exactly hits. Do you take this into account?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok, attached diagram has two marks. Note how wide open the marks are. I do not want interaction between these two marks. I want lots of room for dogs to be stupid. The tighter you make your marks, the more emphasis you are placing on training (line to a specific area) and handling (who can persuade their dogs to line into a tight space). So, if terrain permits (and this terrain does), my bias is to wide open marks. Now your task is to add a Flyer and a fourth bird, if you wish, and defend your positioning. Remember use the diagram so that everyone can follow along


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Keith S. said:


> Ted are we assuming the dog can see where the bird hits the ground behind the trees? It looks like the picture is taken from inside a truck, about 5-6 ft in the air, from the dogs level it might not be able to see where it exactly hits. Do you take this into account?


Yes, if you read at beginning, we are assuming guns/birds visible


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The Janitor called me and told me how to make the photos full sized. So, we have two marks in the field. Add a flyer, and a fourth bird, if you wish and explain your thought process.


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## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> If you throw at a steeper back angle (see red line), small tree protects gun/holding blind, big tree provides wind protection for bird
> 
> 
> View attachment 22112


My thoughts on not going on the red line was to avoid giving a visual 'slot' between the 2 small trees that is directly in line with the target area with the larger group of trees. The larger group of trees could act like the far tree line and encourage the dog to hunt close to them which is just downwind of the mark. Putting it out in the open a bit more may make it more difficult to find, especially if the wind is swirling. Not trying to argue the point, just trying to learn here.

Thanks again Ted.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jim: I think that the three tree cluster will force dogs right or left of the yellow arrow on diagram. I throw bird from left to right, with gun behind big tree, so that a dog would have knife through in order to get to the bird


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't know how to do diagram but I would throw a third bird up the hill ( left to right) from R2 and then if I wanted to make it really hard add a flyer closer to the line as an eraser bird.
On the momma/poppa I would want to see if the dogs would stay away from the down hill aof and fight the uphill terrain. Eraser is an eraser and test of memory.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Here is the diagram with "no man's land" in the green boxes


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

I am am thinking that the first marks look similar. There are trees that look like a key hole so to speak on both #1 and #2. It is hard to tell but both marks look like they go down hill then up hill with #1 being more uphill. So I am thinking we don't want to run a three peat type of marks. #3 is limited though with the tree being a focal point so I would throw it be a live flyer at an angle back.

Thank you for walking us through this process. This is a great thread.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GaryJ said:


> View attachment 22128
> 
> 
> I am am thinking that the first marks look similar. There are trees that look like a key hole so to speak on both #1 and #2. It is hard to tell but both marks look like they go down hill then up hill with #1 being more uphill. So I am thinking we don't want to run a three peat type of marks. #3 is limited though with the tree being a focal point so I would throw it be a live flyer at an angle back.
> ...



Gary, is the yellow arc your flyer? If so, are you throwing right to left or left to right?


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> GD: I think that understanding how marks are constructed will give you a better appreciation of what is happening at a FT.


Appreciate that. I drew my mark but saved it in a format that turned out not readable. As I come back to the thread your R-1 is the mark I tried to draw.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

My first thought on the flyer was to throw it out of the test. But I drew a short R to L bird that pinches the line to R 1. The close flyer station will act as a distraction. (Don't ask me how I know this.) The fall and windriven scent from the flyer will complicate the life of those dogs that drift into the RH "stupid zone." Order of falls, R1, R2, flyer. The flyer is a diversion and not much of a mark. But if a dog blows by and gets lost over the ridge he may find himself in never-never land.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Thinking out loud here, from the picture the flyer looks like it really either has to be in one of two places.

First, you could think about throwing it out of the test at the very top right corner of the picture, probably left to right for safety issues. But that seems to be suction to the right that might even out the terrain's natural suction to the left, and from the picture you have another keyhole type mark and maybe a large potential for expensive and time-consuming no-birds. 

The other place to put it is in close in the middle and throw it right to left landing just right of the three-tree barrier. Now you have an invite to flare right on the way to that second mark. The dog might work back down the tree line to that bird, or he might go the other way and end up in the area of the first bird. You will need to be careful there in placing the holding blind so as not to frame the first mark and take the terrain factor out again. Close in flyer also tests memory (thanks Wayne) and steadiness.

Now that I look at it again, you might move the flyer holding blind way over left and shoot the flyer left to right, ideally landing it left of the barrier. Now you are accenting the terrain factor with the suction of the flyer and you don't have the possible framing issue. 

I would attempt to draw lines, but my computer skills need even more work than Mark's, to say nothing of my handling skills. This is a great thread.


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

Ted Shih said:


> Gary, is the yellow arc your flyer? If so, are you throwing right to left or left to right?


Sorry I forgot to mention that. I was thinking right to left.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Shooting the flyer into the test provides more push to the left as trained dogs want to stay out of where they have been. Shooting a flyer into the test can be difficult to make the test fair for all dogs. A very long flyer could mean a dog will have to nearly run over the flyer fall to get to long mark. A dog that gets a really short flyer has more room and less push.

A flyer can be very attractive even to a well trained dog if they setup a hunt in no mans land with the flyer really prominent. If you move the flyer a little left and shoot to the right you open up the area between the flyer and the middle gun for the dogs to run around. It is hard to tell the relative distance but it would be nice to put the flyer on the face of the hill further back. Dogs that overrun will hunt the top of the hill in all of the feathers. Dogs that can't find the middle mark will have the tempting flyer to go back to.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Guys, if you save the image, and then open with Microsoft Paint, and experiment some, you will find it very easy to create diagrams. When talking about marks, I believe that a picture is worth more than a thousand words.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Ted, 

Sorry, I'm behind as I don't have much time during the day to analyze something this in depth and think about it.

Back to mark 2 on the left. Is the correct line to the bird, between the trees/bushes?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I think I could line an All Age dog along blue line. Once there, dog will hunt along cover line, find bird, bird boy path, or holding blind. See diagram
> 
> 
> View attachment 22113


Thanks for the feedback Ted


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Here is flyer on the face of the further hill. It is more to the right to open up the area to run around. Dogs may overrun and hunt the top of the hill. Dogs that can't find the middle bird could be tempted to switch back to the flyer. I am not a big fan of very long flyers due to visibility and the time it takes for the sound to get back to the line. This does not look that far from my arm chair.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I added two more birds - a flyer and a dink go bird. 

*First*, with respect to order. I would almost always shoot the long bird first. I would want the handlers to have the best opportunity possible to get their dogs to focus on the long bird - which typically is the hardest bird to pick out and see. I would probably shoot the flyer next. Why? I don't know. Just feels right. Then I would shoot the bird on the left. And end with dink bird.

*Second*, with respect to the flyer. I typically like my flyers to be around 175-200 yards out (I don't know distances, but am going to pretend that is the distance of my flyer). That distance (175-200) is close enough that the dogs know it is a flyer. Far away enough that they have to burn some memory getting to it. *Never* give away your flyer. You want it to be a legitimate mark. If a dog is forced to work for the flyer, its work on the remaining birds will suffer. If I am getting action on the flyer, I am assured of getting action on my retired birds. I have placed my flyer guns on the edge of the depression and deep of it. Dogs that run into the depression will lose sight of the guns and the bird, and may lose their bearings - just a little. Dogs that run to the guns, may avoid the depression and have to make a big correction to get to the birds. 

The flyer is - in my judgment - far enough way from R1 that it does not push the dogs into R1. There is a huge idiot flats where dogs can run aimlessly. As the test goes on, we may have flyer feathers deep of the flyer that will keep dogs in idiot flats.

*Third*, I just picked out R1, R2, and F3. I didn't really give any thought to interaction or concepts in setting those three marks. They just jumped out at me. D4 is a different matter. I set D4 to push dogs behind F3 when going for the flyer and to create some push into the area in blue. I think once the dogs get into the blue area, they will run, run, and run.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

suepuff said:


> Ted,
> 
> Back to mark 2 on the left. Is the correct line to the bird, between the trees/bushes?



I wouldn't say "correct" line. We are judging marks not lines. But, if you were drawing a line from the line to the bird, that line would go directly through the trees/bushes. I think it is unlikely the dogs will take the direct line. I think that they are more likely to break left or right of the three trees/bushes, and then have to correct. When you set up marks, you want to make it difficult for a dog to line to a bird. If a handler can line a dog to a bird, how are you as a judge able to discern whether you are seeing natural ability (marking) or trained ability (lining). If you prevent the handlers from lining to your bird, then it is up to the dog to problem solve and find the bird. I want to force the dogs to problem solve. See diagram for what I expect might happen (this is discussed in more detail earlier)


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I know the thread has advanced ,but as for picking a single mark , here is what came to mind. ( After reading most of the comments on the " 1 mark " part of the thread) 
It's very much a learning post for me but I chose this mark with this conclusion. 
There appears to be a terrace with a small line of snow on the shady side. If the bird was thrown R2L and landed in the ditch ,the scent would not carry as well and if it did , likely roll with the ditch a ways. With the combination of the 3 cedar trees ( 2 slots to pick) , the slope and the angle of the terrace/ditch there are several factors working together that would push a dog to the left "no mans land" for the hunt and not wind the bird. If he did drive deep and back up the hill ,on the back portion of the terrace ,I think the location would likely still either hide the scent the dog would push over the ridge far enough to wind it.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> View attachment 22121
> 
> Jim: I think that the three tree cluster will force dogs right or left of the yellow arrow on diagram. I throw bird from left to right, with gun behind big tree, so that a dog would have knife through in order to get to the bird


 On R2, could the two smaller trees or shrubs on the left of the bigger tree cause a problem at dog level?
And are you expecting the dog to go through them or go around them?


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I can't get my image to upload but would it be too tight to place the flyer station at the 3rd small cedar throwing slight angle back toward the 2nd cedar which would place the fall inline with the gun station of R1 and then throw the go bird off to the right?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted,

With time being somewhat critical, the dink bird added roughly 220-250 minutes to the test (5 bird changes @ 4-5 minutes per change, 80 dogs at 2-3 minutes a dog, give or take a minute here or there). Are you now concerned about getting 80 dogs done on Friday?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Shooting it this way would put station 1 in the cross hairs of being rained on all day. As well, you now have a flyer that needs to land absolutely perfect for 80 dogs. Shoot it the other way and you would be fine.



BrettG said:


> I can't get my image to upload but would it be too tight to place the flyer station at the 3rd small cedar throwing slight angle back toward the 2nd cedar which would place the fall inline with the gun station of R1 and then throw the go bird off to the right?


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## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

I think the real trouble for this setup is deep right of R1, so I have selected the other two birds to enhance this. M2 is intended to suck in a dog that is right of R1. Putting the flyer down in the left "idiot flats" could cause problems for a dog that is right of R2 or left of R1. But, this area labeled "F Primary" could help dogs that are well experienced in avoiding the flyer station and tend to funnel them to the retired marks. So, I have added another potential flyer location, "F", out to the right. This location does not do much except burn some memory, but it leaves some room over on the left of the set-up for unsure dogs to get in trouble. 

I think "F Primary" would tend to weed out less experienced dogs that were not trained to deal with flyer stations, and "F" would tend to reward dogs that had a good mark and memory on R1. So I will go with "F" instead of "F Primary".

Ted, thank you for this this thread.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> *Note how wide open the marks are*. I do not want interaction between these two marks. I want *lots of room *for dogs to be stupid. The tighter you make your marks, the more emphasis you are placing on training (line to a specific area) and handling (who can persuade their dogs to line into a tight space). So, *if terrain permits *(and this terrain does), my bias is to *wide open marks*.
> 
> i like this thread. but the above "philosophical statement of wisdom" needs emphasis and repeating.(IMH&inexperiencedO)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Ted,
> 
> With time being somewhat critical, the dink bird added roughly 220-250 minutes to the test (5 bird changes @ 4-5 minutes per change, 80 dogs at 2-3 minutes a dog, give or take a minute here or there). Are you now concerned about getting 80 dogs done on Friday?


80 dogs in response to Todd's question. Not part of this exercise.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I recently ran a field trial where Ted was one of the open stake judges and will describe the setup as it illustrates some of the discussion here. The test was a triple shot from left to right and long to short. The first bird was approximately 300 yards thrown mid slope onto a large mound and retired behind the mound. There was a lot of channels and heavy vegetation the first 1/3 of the line. The second mark was about 150 yards out and thrown to the base of another mound and the gun retired into a depression with a wrap around blind that was not visible from the line. Between these two marks there was a wide open grassy area that Extended way deeP of the second bird. In closer at 75 yards was the flier. From the line the flier and second bird down almost looked like a flower pot throw. The flier was shot into a strong wind so that feathers and scent were blowing across the line to the second bird. I saw a lot of dogs make a lot of different errors and all three marks got dogs. On the flier there was a channel up front that combinEd with the strong wind causes many dogs to backside the gun and have big hunts. If you got that bird many dogs broke down and hunted short on the way to the second bird because of the feather drift. Also few dogs wanted to run right a the mound the bird was thrown to and be ause of that plus a cross wind and the tightness to the flier station a lot of dogs ended up wide left in a big open green field and never recovered. If you got those birds the last mark also pushed dogs off line due to the heavy cover and channels up front and not wanting to run at and push up the mound at the end. Ted can comment but I think they got a ton of answers in that first series. Hopefully you can picture my description since I have no clue how to draw on this site.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Here is the first series of the Open at Lassen this Spring, which David and Abby won. Wind started at our backs, then shifted to cross wind, right to left, angling from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock (from perspective of line). Lots of dogs got lost in area between R1 and R2. As wind shifted feather drift from flyer kept dogs from driving past flyer to R1. We shot R1 first even though not longest because we were concerned if you shot R2 first, dogs would swing past R1 straight to flyer. Cover was good, ditches filled with water, hard for dogs to line to any of the birds. No cover for flyer so that should have been a gimme, but flyer feather drift drove dogs crazy. Action on all three birds


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I wouldn't say "correct" line. We are judging marks not lines. But, if you were drawing a line from the line to the bird, that line would go directly through the trees/bushes. I think it is unlikely the dogs will take the direct line. I think that they are more likely to break left or right of the three trees/bushes, and then have to correct. When you set up marks, you want to make it difficult for a dog to line to a bird. If a handler can line a dog to a bird, how are you as a judge able to discern whether you are seeing natural ability (marking) or trained ability (lining). If you prevent the handlers from lining to your bird, then it is up to the dog to problem solve and find the bird. I want to force the dogs to problem solve. See diagram for what I expect might happen (this is discussed in more detail earlier)
> 
> 
> View attachment 22133


Do you want to make it difficult to line the birds or impossible? I think the left hand bird borders on impossible to take a straight line and makes it likely that the dog misses part of the arc of the bird after it drops below the bushes (in addition to obscuring the gunner). Shouldn't rule number 1 (after ensuring safety) be to make the throws and guns visible?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Do you want to make it difficult to line the birds or impossible? I think the left hand bird borders on impossible to take a straight line and makes it likely that the dog misses part of the arc of the bird after it drops below the bushes (in addition to obscuring the gunner). Shouldn't rule number 1 (after ensuring safety) be to make the throws and guns visible?



We were running from mound. Guns and birds both visible. The reason I don't like overhead views is that you lack perspective.  As for lining, given my druthers, I would want it to be impossible. But, it wasn't. Several dogs lined to that mark, including David's, if I am not mistaken. But, it was very difficult to do so.


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