# Difficulty of Junior tests



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

This may have come up in other threads, I can't find any that deal specifically with this question.

So here is my question. Are Junior Stakes asking too little of the dogs (and handlers)? Are they too easy? On the one hand, we want to bring newbies into the game, we want it to be fun and we want a high pass rate. I also get that Junior should test the "natural" abilities of the retriever. 

However... we are still _only_ dropping the dogs who blink the bird or won't deliver to hand or won't get in the water. However, these are all pretty much resolved in training. That being the case, we might as well be holding the Junior stake in a parking lot. 

I do NOT think a bit tougher Junior will be an obstacle to getting new people into the game. Currently the Junior is just setting the newbies up for failure in the Senior. They are so excited and happy their dogs got an AKC title but then are shocked to learn that the next ribbon requires steadiness, handling, multiples, walk-ups, diversion shots and an honor. 

So: Should we tweek the rules to require a teeny bit more? Or should judges be encouraged to make the singles have some more factors. (Run across a road AND charge into some tall grass? Require dogs to get into the water without running any bank if the line is at the water's edge?)

I would just like others' opinions. (If I'd been hammered for line manners in Junior... I'd like to think I might have addressed my problem earlier. Not trying to deflect blame. It was my bad. But maybe...)


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

I think the answer is to skip over JH. Leave it easy for the reasons you mentioned.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

No, the rules shouldn't be tweaked. I made the decision to not run my dogs until they are adequately trained to my standard. No one makes handlers run dogs before they are ready. In fact, anyone who asks is warned against doing so. Not everyone listens, but that doesn't necessitate a rule change.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

1tulip said:


> So here is my question. * Are Junior Stakes asking too little of the dogs (and handlers)? Are they too easy?*


Not everywhere. This has long been a sore spot with me when dogs are not challenged on single marks they may see when afield. 

If a dog will not swim across a pond and dig into the weeds or cattails and bring back my duck, I have no use of him. We are talking single marks here. I have no illusions of him doing stellar work or front footing a mark in cover, but I expect him to make ever effort to find it by marking the area and putting on a good hunt. I expect a somewhat obedient animal at the line and a dog that is happy to be there.

While not a true hunting situation, as much as we try, we *are* looking for *A Suitable Hunting Companion*. That wording has not changed and IMO is still the most important sentence in the book.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

I think the marks should have factors. When I judge they do. A JR dog should be able to do the same marks you set up for a Senior, just do them as singles. I get sick of the bird splashing in the middle of the pond JR water marks. Put it in some light reeds or up on the opposite bank. Vic


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Zach Fisher said:


> I think the answer is to skip over JH. Leave it easy for the reasons you mentioned.


Zach... I think you proved my point, yes? They don't teach anyone anything.

Typically Juniors will run a land single near the water, pivot the line and run a water single. 

Why not have the land mark a live flier... with the wind wafting towards the water. Then shoot a dead duck across the water, and if the dog runs the shore, they end up with a nose full of flier scent.

Or something like that.

Then when the handlers see their dog bail on the dead water mark and run back to the fliers and they tell the judge they've never seen their dog do "anything like that before"... you have an opportunity to educate them and they might be encouraged to get out and train their dogs?

I don't learn anything from easy success.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Zach Fisher said:


> I think the answer is to skip over JH. Leave it easy for the reasons you mentioned.


I agree, I will only run a junior or started test with a dog that is steady, thru force and has lots of marking experience. The only reason I run them is to expose the dog to the test environment, on a test that is a walk in the park for them. Its just about the exposure. I will run one weekend, but probably not again until they are ready for the next level. Current dog ran 2 started tests at 10 months, then did not run again till the next year and we ran Finished, skipped Seasoned too.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

Golddogs you beat me to it. A Suitable Hunting Companion should retrieve all birds it saw fall as singles. If it didn't see the fall you should be able to take it to the AOF and have it dig the bird out.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

1tulip said:


> Zach... I think you proved my point, yes? They don't teach anyone anything.
> 
> Typically Juniors will run a land single near the water, pivot the line and run a water single.
> 
> ...


Judges make or break the test. Anyone that would set up a land test for a junior dog with water in the picture needs not be judging. 

Proper test set up, straight forward marks, no angles to water or cover, non cheating water entries, etc. allow handlers to run dogs without creating bad habits. Poor test set ups such as the one you describe create or exacerbate bad habits. 

If it's too easy for you, don't run it.


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## barbless (Aug 9, 2015)

All of the opinions make good points. If you are a first time handlers you and training may be the one really being tested. Plus the hope is to get handlers involved in further dog training and testing plus grow the sport.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

captainjack said:


> No, the rules shouldn't be tweaked. I made the decision to not run my dogs until they are adequately trained to my standard. No one makes handlers run dogs before they are ready. In fact, anyone who asks is warned against doing so. Not everyone listens, but that doesn't necessitate a rule change.



Excellant post, I myself will not run a dog now until ready to run Master. I had to learn in the beginning as we all have. Nothing but issues come from running too soon and this directed at ME.....hunting a dog too soon. Shooting 75 snow geese out to a 6 month old dog while impressive to me did nothing but cause issues later on. We all learn with experience, what I have learned from watching the top FT guys. Many do not run the Qual until the dog is really ready for the open. They hit one or two Qual get qualified, you do not see the dog again for a year then hit the open and are competitive. What I learned is with experience you know when to bring the dog to the line. 

I remember my first derby, laughing as I type. First go bird nailed it, I'm thinking yeah, then second bird she hs to run past a bird crate. Yep straight to the crate, I said "thank you judges" as the judge said "dog has never seen that before" I said "nope" she will soon! LOL.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Judges make or break the test. Anyone that would set up a land test for a junior dog with water in the picture needs not be judging.
> 
> Proper test set up, straight forward marks, no angles to water or cover, non cheating water entries, etc. allow handlers to run dogs without creating bad habits. Poor test set ups such as the one you describe create or exacerbate bad habits.
> 
> If it's too easy for you, don't run it.


In my mind, the marks are separated by way, way more than 90 degrees. Maybe 120 degrees. Just not quite 180 degrees. The line when it is turned to run the water is immediately on the edge of the water (toes of handler's boots are damp.) The dog would absolutely have to refuse to enter the water, run the shore and then willingly run away from the water and the bird he just saw go down in order to go to where he smells scent from a previously shot and retrieved bird. IOW... no dog would be eliminated for running the bank. They could run the shore and pass if they knew enough that they wouldn't go to an old fall.

Would this test separate suitable hunting companions from unsuitable ones? Would the test start bad-habits or reveal bad habits the handler probably didn't know the dog had?

I think it's an OK test... but I'm not a judge and that's probably why, if I were, I'd never be asked back.

Currently, almost every dog that fails the Junior is failed because the handler did not teach him that getting into the water was better than not. That any bird has to be picked up. And that every bird must be held until placed in the handler's hands. We are pretty much ONLY failing dogs for being untrained. IOW... we are failing almost all Junior dogs on the one characteristic we're not supposed to judge and giving them a pass on almost every other trait. (Marking, perseverance, style.)


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Why do you want to make it harder? That's why AKC, actually NAHRA before, created a system with three levels. I don't think anyone considers a Junior Hunter anything more than a bare basic dog. I do believe a Senior Hunter (NAHRA Working Retriever), is a good journeyman hunting dog. Leave JH as is and skip that level if you don't feel challenged.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I didn't run Rowdy in junior but ran previous, now deceased, dogs in that stake. I think like CaptJack, just leave it alone. I think the difficulty level is about right for the beginning trainer. Although not running junior stake, I have seen more fails that what Itulip described.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

1tulip said:


> In my mind, the marks are separated by way, way more than 90 degrees. Maybe 120 degrees. Just not quite 180 degrees. The line when it is turned to run the water is immediately on the edge of the water (toes of handler's boots are damp.) The dog would absolutely have to refuse to enter the water, run the shore and then willingly run away from the water and the bird he just saw go down in order to go to where he smells scent from a previously shot and retrieved bird. IOW... no dog would be eliminated for running the bank. They could run the shore and pass if they knew enough that they wouldn't go to an old fall.
> 
> Would this test separate suitable hunting companions from unsuitable ones? Would the test start bad-habits or reveal bad habits the handler probably didn't know the dog had?
> 
> ...


If someone were to go back and read through your posts when you were getting ready to run junior, would they find that rtfers were trying to convey to you the drawbacks to running a dog too soon?

My guess is that they would, and you obviously didn't listen to the advice. Nor are you likely to listen now. I hope your dog progresses at a faster pace.

Edit: Many of us didn't listen with our first dog. No reason to change the rules though.


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## gaustin (Apr 7, 2013)

My experience running Junior was to get line time with my first dog. That is the only AKC title he has. Last summer we earned his HRCH Title. Here is one experience I had running Junior;

We had a live flyer when I ran Junior. Never trained for it, so that was on me not my dog. There were factors on the land series that tested the dogs ability and most figured it out. Where the flyer was shot was just beyond this rolling hill and plenty of dogs got hung up on the top before driving deeper. One young little yellow lab his flyer didn't get hit all that hard and while he was hunting the top of the hill his duck came walking up to him. Quite a funny moment as he wasn't sure or shocked at first but he gained his composure and brought it back. 

The water series was in flooded timber and quite a few dogs were locking in on this one stump that was just out of the water once again most figured it out. The second mark was behind a small floating log in some cattails, once again most dogs dug it out. I really enjoyed the test as well as I believe the judges judged accordingly. It was a hard set-up but those that passed earned it. Now the dogs I saw fail, failed because of training not the set-up. (Got loose before sending and couldn't get his dog back, rolling on the bird, not delivering a wet bird to hand)

We passed and to this day is still one of my favorite ribbons because even though it was Junior it showed his natural ability


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

captainjack said:


> If someone were to go back and read through your posts when you were getting ready to run junior, would they find that rtfers were trying to convey to you the drawbacks to running a dog too soon?
> 
> My guess is that they would, and you obviously didn't listen to the advice. Nor are you likely to listen now. I hope your dog progresses at a faster pace.
> 
> Edit: Many of us didn't listen with our first dog. No reason to change the rules though.


Oh, my. Jack, Jack, Jack...

Rocket Dog was 2.5 years old when she began running Juniors. My pro told me to run her. I am not sure at what point I was making those angst ridden posts. I believe you, 'cause I do that. 

Among the reasons the pro had for suggesting I run her to title her... was to demonstrate that, notwithstanding the fact that she was doing Senior work reliably in training, we/I needed to know the degree to which she "cycled up" over the course of the day and the amount of time it took to get the genie back in the bottle in the weeks following. The second Jr she ran was only 3 weeks after the first. She did it... but three weeks was not enough. The 3rd and 4th were separated by 4 and 5 weeks respectively. It worked, kinda. At the end of the season I ran her in Hills Ferry Senior. She hammered the test. Unlike the Juniors... she was quiet (I think, I don't know...maybe quieter... anyhow better by a lot). But she crept badly. WHICH I only learned when we ran that first SENIOR. That was the end of that. 

I learned the lessons the pro wanted me to learn and it was not about 4 orange ribbons. 

Maybe with the next dog there will be no point. 

Wayne... I did those 4 Juniors, plus marshaled at 2 more. The only dogs that failed were the ones that didn't bring the bird to hand, and one that blinked a bird. Oh... and one dog that retrieved a decoy. Oh wait... actually, I have seen one dog that would not go out beyond about 20 feet of the line. So I have seen one dog that was failed for being an unsuitable hunting companion. The rest had major failures in basic training.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> .
> 
> ( Tulip,, from your own description of how your dog HAS been at the line,,, Your dog should not pass one of those EASY junior tests IMHO)


I agree. I shouldn't have passed the Senior I ran either. It was a circus on the line in Junior. At least in the Senior, we made it from the holding blind with some semblance of dignity. After that... bring in the clowns. (But she looked good in the judges' books.)


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

I have to agree with Gooser and some others here. Why do we need to make it harder? Plenty of dogs fail JH every week for a variety of reasons. By asking this question, imho it just sounds like you think you are above or "too good" to run a JH. And quite frankly, maybe you are. If you have trained a dog before and excelled in tests then in a way you probably are and can skip over the JH tests. I think it is important to remember where we all began. 

I am still a newbie with just running in my first JH tests last spring. And Senior this year. While many people feel over qualified to waste their time and money on running a JH test, which I can understand, I feel running those tests to "get my feet wet" and getting a title was most definitely a catalyst for me in wanting to keep advancing my dog. I had such a great time at the events and I met so many great people it kept me interested. I wanted to train more. I wanted to learn more. I wanted to volunteer at events. I wanted to be better. I wanted to get involved. It got me hooked. 

I knew that a JH title was nothing to write home to mom about but I still enjoyed it. And I knew this because I knew what these dogs are capable of doing. And I learned a lot. Most importantly I learned that my heart can race at 500 bpm over a dang dog picking up some ducks....and I can live to tell about it. 

If it had been a little more "cut throat" and 50%+ dogs failed the event because it was decided to make it "harder", would people have had as much fun? Would they have come back? would it turn people off? I don't know. But I would think so.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

At AKC judge seminars I have attended it has been said many times a mark is a mark whether JR, SR or MH so factors and decisions should be added by the judging team for JR methinks. Only thing I insist on when judging JR is I won't teach a JR dog to cheat on water so some marks might be soft in that regard from me.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

birddogn_tc said:


> I have to agree with Gooser and some others here. Why do we need to make it harder? Plenty of dogs fail JH every week for a variety of reasons. By asking this question, imho it just sounds like you think you are above or "too good" to run a JH. And quite frankly, maybe you are. If you have trained a dog before and excelled in tests then in a way you probably are and can skip over the JH tests. I think it is important to remember where we all began.
> 
> I am still a newbie with just running in my first JH tests last spring. And Senior this year. While many people feel over qualified to waste their time and money on running a JH test, which I can understand, I feel running those tests to "get my feet wet" and getting a title was most definitely a catalyst for me in wanting to keep advancing my dog. I had such a great time at the events and I met so many great people it kept me interested. I wanted to train more. I wanted to learn more. I wanted to volunteer at events. I wanted to be better. I wanted to get involved. It got me hooked.
> 
> ...


*

*If I understand you correctly, you are saying if the standard was held high, more dogs would fail and thus would loose interest in the sport. 

Perhaps this is what is happening to the HT game in general. People looking to get "participation ribbons" rather then train the dog. I have failed tests, I have made the walk "of shame" picking a dog up, I never once wanted a ribbon. Those fails are what keep me pressing on not quiting.
Lowering a standard to not offend people just makes the titles worthless IMHO. All the HT I had gone to and passed both in Masters and HRC do not mean nothing compared to the jam I received on my two year old male at the time in the Qual. If it were up to me, HT in general would be much more difficult. A fail just points to weakness in your training you learn.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> [/B]If I understand you correctly, you are saying if the standard was held high, more dogs would fail and thus would loose interest in the sport.
> 
> Perhaps this is what is happening to the HT game in general. People looking to get "participation ribbons" rather then train the dog. I have failed tests, I have made the walk "of shame" picking a dog up, I never once wanted a ribbon. Those fails are what keep me pressing on not quiting.
> Lowering a standard to not offend people just makes the titles worthless IMHO. All the HT I had gone to and passed both in Masters and HRC do not mean nothing compared to the jam I received on my two year old male at the time in the Qual. If it were up to me, HT in general would be much more difficult. A fail just points to weakness in your training you learn.


I disagree only at the entry levels(Junior and Started). For the most part, the people running the entry level stakes are inexperienced amateurs. Pros and experienced amateurs typically start at least the mid-level(Senior/Seasoned). If the desire is to grow the sport and bring in people who are new, then give them a positive experience and don't overwhelm them. I mean the hunt test community is already lamenting the fact that so few people train/run their own dogs. If you make things overwhelming and too difficult, you'll turn away a portion of those new people who are just getting their feet wet. JMO, and again I support this train of thought ONLY at the entry level stakes.


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## hockgreg (Dec 15, 2016)

This is more than just a challenge or lack of for the dog.Many first time handlers are nervous as hell,I know I was and you want to make it harder?Not all are seasoned trainers/handlers. Leave it alone,its a beginning for many...dog and human.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> [/B]If I understand you correctly, you are saying if the standard was held high, more dogs would fail and thus would loose interest in the sport.
> 
> Perhaps this is what is happening to the HT game in general. People looking to get "participation ribbons" rather then train the dog. I have failed tests, I have made the walk "of shame" picking a dog up, I never once wanted a ribbon. Those fails are what keep me pressing on not quiting.
> Lowering a standard to not offend people just makes the titles worthless IMHO. All the HT I had gone to and passed both in Masters and HRC do not mean nothing compared to the jam I received on my two year old male at the time in the Qual. If it were up to me, HT in general would be much more difficult. A fail just points to weakness in your training you learn.


No, you don't understand me correctly. Where did I ever mention lowering the standard? The standard should absolutely be held high. That is extremely important. However I am saying we don't need to change the standard for a JH test to make it harder than it currrently is. I think it is fair today. In my very inexperienced opinion, the JH test is currently adequate to test dogs at that level per what the rule book states. That is why there are different levels to achieve (JH, SH, MH).


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## S_Ericksen (Mar 14, 2017)

As someone who is about to run my first test (although my dog has run with pros before), maybe my perspective will be useful. JH needs to be vanilla for handlers like me who don't know what to expect on the line in a real test scenario. It's very helpful to have someplace so simple to start before I'm able to get my dog those senior and master passes.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Running Junior was a great learning experience for ME. I learned that low OB standards will result in zero OB with the excitement of a test. My next one will not run until he is ready for Senior.


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

1tulip said:


> This may have come up in other threads, I can't find any that deal specifically with this question.
> 
> So here is my question. Are Junior Stakes asking too little of the dogs (and handlers)? Are they too easy? On the one hand, we want to bring newbies into the game, we want it to be fun and we want a high pass rate. I also get that Junior should test the "natural" abilities of the retriever.
> 
> ...


It all depends on the test setup, how the judges use factors, and what they find acceptable. I once ran a dog of mine in a Junior that started with 42 dogs. Of the 42, 14 went to the water series and mine was one of four that passed. The handlers were furious with the judges and much of it was justified. The first series had a first bird thrown in a strip of cover. The second bird was a converging mark in a farther out strip of cover about 125 yards away but that required dogs to run right through the AOF of the first mark. Needless to say, young dog after young dog broke down in the first strip of cover again. The water series had a second bird that the dogs got to see for a split second thrown into cover that was 7-8 feet tall. It was a really unfair test. On the other extreme, I ran a dog for a friend of mine in a Junior several years ago. The land was simple enough but some didn't do it. Then the water came and the judges were going to have the mark thrown where it required going over a log in the water. The immediate complaints from the handlers were absurd: "These are young dogs. They haven't done that." (Whose fault was that?) The judges caved and threw the bird elsewhere. After the stake wrapped up, I took my little Golden/Beagle mix truck dog who has had no formal field training and chucked a bumper over that log. He swam out, went over the log, got the bumper, and came back. My point is that it just proved the judges were wrong to cave on that factor when doing so only gave passes to the dogs and handlers who had apparently put in less training time than I had given my little rescue. Unfortunately, some of those types of handlers are now judges.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Just saying as a Junior and Senior judge only in excess of 30 plus times there are several factors that sometimes affect a test setup especially in the Junior stake. If a club has limited grounds the part of the grounds that are the worst are given to the judges to set up a good Junior test. If possible I like to set up marks that could be a part of ANY of the three classes Junior, Senior or Master. That done I usually have a dog run the marks. The marks are timed so I can plan the time it takes to run my test. THEN on the day of the test with all the handlers I like to get them feeling at ease.....BREATHE...Encourage your fellow competitors, IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION .....ASK IT. A dog can do just one of two things .....PASS OR FAIL......... HAVE FUN WITH YOUR PUP.....The most fails looking back thru my old sheets came mostly for three things....dog not holding onto the bird, no going and eating bird. delivery to hand mostly. TITLING A DOG IS NOT A RACE.....TRAIN YOUR DOG AND BE PATIENT.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

It's junior nimrod. If you want it to be harder then run senior. If that's not enough run master. Get out of here with your nonsense. 



1tulip said:


> In my mind, the marks are separated by way, way more than 90 degrees. Maybe 120 degrees. Just not quite 180 degrees. The line when it is turned to run the water is immediately on the edge of the water (toes of handler's boots are damp.) The dog would absolutely have to refuse to enter the water, run the shore and then willingly run away from the water and the bird he just saw go down in order to go to where he smells scent from a previously shot and retrieved bird. IOW... no dog would be eliminated for running the bank. They could run the shore and pass if they knew enough that they wouldn't go to an old fall.
> 
> Would this test separate suitable hunting companions from unsuitable ones? Would the test start bad-habits or reveal bad habits the handler probably didn't know the dog had?
> 
> ...


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I believe I'm clear on this:

1) My dog and I put in very poor (in my view) performances to date... and passed on the mercy of the judges. Entirely due to line manners. Everybody knows this. No secret.

2) I profited from running the Juniors and one Senior because I began to deal with my jitters. Apart from taking drugs, I can't think of any other way to get less nervous.

3) There is no other way to get really detailed and granular about every step you take from the truck to the holding blind... from the holding blind to the line and so on, than to do it in a HT. So running Junior helped me to break our failings down into small bits and begin to address each one.

It was hugely valuable to run Junior. But it was _not fun_. And passing did not make it any more fun. I could have failed (should have) and still learned what I had to learn.

I'm not putting on attitude and looking down my nose on anyone. (Holy smoke! I have a great dog. But she has a lousy handler.)

Here's the deal. There should be graduating difficulty Junior to Senior to Master. But the way it's done currently is... Junior = kindergarten/1st grade. Senior = Advanced Placement High School. Master = College. That jump from Junior to Senior is a LOT and maybe too much. That's where I think we lose a lot of amateurs.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

In my opinion, which is only worth a couple pennies, the land marks for junior should be where we determine if a junior level dog can mark...deal with cover, cover changes, terrain. Water is not so much about marking but about getting wet and bringing a bird to hand..also think a junior dog should be able to ignore decoys that are placed close enough to the aof or line to be a factor...these are supposed to be hunting dogs. As,such they should know to ignore dekes. ( i would never take a dog hunting without training them to go thru dekes). I think junior level marks should land in water and handler and dog should be no more than 10 feet to the waters edge. 

Handlers have enough to worry about without making tests over the top.

I have never heard a handler say they wanted a 'participation' ribbon. In fact i think most handlers want fair tests that are challenging but appropriate to the level they are running.


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## Trefftzs (Apr 5, 2017)

*I will be running JR or Started hunt test as my first...*

This is an interesting thread for a newbie like me. I have trained a "meat dog" but I have never run a test. 

IF my pup "Bo" is ready, we will run our first test in the fall. He will be doing everything required for SR/Seasoned test before I will consider him ready for any tests. I'm sure, I will be the weak link as an inexperienced test handler anyway, so I am going to need the experience. Running a few JR/Started tests should help me as a handler even IF the "low level" tests will be easy for Bo.

That is my opinion as a newbie... maybe after I work with the local retriever club this summer I will have a different point of view, but right now that is the way I see it.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm just not getting your point Tulip. As someone who went six straight in Junior with my first dog, I was super pumped to get that title and learned a lot along the way. I also gained so much confidence, the step up to Senior wasn't too intimidating. For me, the step up to master from senior was huge. I'm not one of those that believes a JH would be ready for senior, or a SH should be ready for master. I believe a SH should have to train to a much higher level before he is ready for master.

I think it's good the way it is and say leave well enough alone.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Probably when I get to the point of running Master... I'll agree totally with you. I know it's much harder, but I can't get my head around it until it happens. Vis. Junior... my only point is that dogs that fail are frequently failed for training deficiencies... mostly not being FF'd. (Blinking and dropping the bird/failing to pick it up again.) We are not supposed to be grading on trainability. But the "deliver to hand" thing is an absolutely black and white standard. So we do.

Dogs are supposed to be held gently on line. Once we got to the line we were OK. But she dragged me there from the blind. And she was noisy. This is not what you want in a hunting companion and I shoulda been failed but I got away with it. Hand-delivery is absolute and binary. Line manners is relative. But just like hand delivery, they are both training holes.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Generally the junior is not that easy anymore, especially in the midwest. It's right where it should be. Maybe the areas where junior is held don't have a lot of terrain or the judges are assigned a bad area, so it seems easy but tests don't have to be long here because we have good terrain. The step up to senior is big for some, but the step up to master is a huge step. Since you have not run master you will see, especially if you have not mastered your jitters.

The junior people are for the most part very nervous so much has to do with getting through the mechanics of the tests. I marshalled a lot of juniors and gave a lot of hints. There are still a lot of experienced people who use juniors to put their young dogs through the mechanics of testing so they can see what they will do. I think noobs should resist the impulse to ask for change based on a few tests in one area but it seems to happen at every level. We all have gone to tests thinking I've never done that in training, and then when your dog handles it, you feel great and want more. It's been rolling for a long time like this and it doesn't need tweaking for individual likes and dislikes.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Justin Allen said:


> It's junior nimrod. If you want it to be harder then run senior. If that's not enough run master. Get out of here with your nonsense.


Brilliant!


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

1tulip said:


> But she dragged me there from the blind. And she was noisy. This is not what you want in a hunting companion and I shoulda been failed but I got away with it.


Why didn't you pick your dog up at this point and thank the judges if it was behavior you deemed unacceptable ?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Hopefully mandatory flyers will take effect this year and remove that component.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

BlaineT said:


> Why didn't you pick your dog up at this point and thank the judges if it was behavior you deemed unacceptable ?


That would've been a good thought.

You seem to know what deficiencies your dog has, why don't you train? If you train your own dog how can you be so nervous going to the line and not have a routine? Do you not have that same routine in training? If not you should.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

1tulip said:


> This may have come up in other threads, I can't find any that deal specifically with this question.
> 
> So here is my question. Are Junior Stakes asking too little of the dogs (and handlers)? Are they too easy? On the one hand, we want to bring newbies into the game, we want it to be fun and we want a high pass rate. I also get that Junior should test the "natural" abilities of the retriever.
> 
> ...


I think what you have to remember is that Junior is made up of retriever owners across the spectrum. Some of them have no aspirations beyond the JH. They participate in comformation, agility, obedience, etc and may not have the time, resources or desire to go beyond Junior. If their dog meets the current standard than they deserve a JH title without it being ramped up. Many don't have access to a dedicated field training group and live flyers are a fairly new experience for a lot of dogs and handlers. 

I too hate the marks being served on a platter without there being any factors or challenges, but when it comes to water marks I wholeheartedly agree with the majority that they shouldn't encourage cheating. Every judge is different regardless of what stake they are judging and some are going to dumb the test, but as long as it tests the dog to the current standard it's all good. the dogs should be judged as Junior dogs that day and not as dogs with deficits for any of the higher levels.

M


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

BlaineT said:


> Why didn't you pick your dog up at this point and thank the judges if it was behavior you deemed unacceptable ?


You've spoken with my pro, I can see. (Particularly at the Senior I ran.)


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

The written standard for an AKC Junior Hunter is plenty sufficient to test the relative merits of that level of retriever. A dog that truly meets the standard would be an asset in a large percentage of typical hunting scenarios, AND would exceed the abilities of a large percentage of your typical field retrievers.

Sounds like your gripe is more with the enforcement of the standard, or insufficient testing of the standard by the judges (which may or may not be within their control)


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## ahud (Mar 19, 2015)

For people just entering the sport, I think the difficulty of JH changes a lot if you are self-training versus using a pro. I don't have the first-hand experience, but I like the fact that HT is supposed to be attainable for the new guy that is willing to learn.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I've read them and outlined them. Seriously. Reading them did not do me any good. I still have to review them before an event. Must be slow that way. Or OCD. Whatever.

So there appears to be a consensus that the marks should _not_ be give-aways, but they should be doable by a young dog with not too much experience. Someone mentioned that Junior stakes don't usually get the best grounds. I think that would be the case where I have been. 

In the past, running my dog at an event has not been fun. I expect it to get better. But going to HT's shows me exactly where we are in our program in a way training cannot. So the easy marks did not benefit me at all. But the whole experience certainly did.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

ahud said:


> For people just entering the sport, I think the difficulty of JH changes a lot if you are self-training versus using a pro. I don't have the first-hand experience, but I like the fact that HT is supposed to be attainable for the new guy that is willing to learn.


We have a winner!!!

Doesn't help when you have clueless judges either.....Judges who have no idea what constitutes problems for young dogs or what will challenge a dog to the right degree. It is why you see anything from 20 yard pillows in the middle of a golf course pond to 120 yard uphill flyers into 20 mph wind into heavy cover with four significant cover changes on the way to the bird. Oh and the infamous 140 yd channel mark with dogs dropped for running the bank ON THE WAY BACK!

Every JH judge should remember their own experience the first time on the line. I was so nervous I could barely talk. I was so thrilled and proud with the ribbon that day I had tears in my eyes. That is what JH is about.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Preparation and more preparation. Observation. Amazing how many think they and their animals can do it cold? Old hands can do it with good animals (6 months) but newbies do your preparation homework. There are slow learners -human and animal. Go with the flow.


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## ahud (Mar 19, 2015)

What age are the dogs in the JH/started stakes generally? Is it odd to see older dogs in JH/started stakes? I'm self-training so I am sure I am progressing at a fraction of the pace of a pro.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

ahud said:


> What age are the dogs in the JH/started stakes generally? Is it odd to see older dogs in JH/started stakes? I'm self-training so I am sure I am progressing at a fraction of the pace of a pro.


Most dogs are young. But that shouldn't have any impact on if/when you run.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Dog dragging to the line. No, Heel! Thank you judges. Noisy on the line. Heel!, thank you judges. Wait until the problem solved before running again. Yes, did it. Dog never could quiet down so never ran another test.

IMHO

Jeff


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Itulp, Maybe in Nevada too easy. I don't know as I have never been there for a dog test. I think in TX, LA and OK they are just fine.

A couple of things that I saw that dropped a bunch of junior dogs.
1. A substantial log floating in the water enroute to the mark. Many junior dogs were baffled by this as they had never see it.
2. Water cheating marks. Many trainers at junior level stay away from potential water cheating situations until they are further along. So dogs ran around water and couldn't recover to the mark.

Just a couple things that come to my mind that I have seen.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

IMO Juniors is the hook, it's where know nothing handlers go in and see that their dogs can in fact do this stuff. Also tells some handlers what they need to work on, and that they do need to actually work and hone those natural abilities. How many handlers have went to the line in junior to have a calm dog turn into a romping, crying, psychopath. How many handlers have gone with a dog that always marks, always brings them back, always delivers to hand but this time doesn't, or the dog hasn't seen enough birds, or never dealt with a cripple flyer, decides bird is tasty today. "Oh but he's NEVER done that before" I'd say most learn something about their dog and what they do in testing environments, ribbon or not. 

I run dogs in events, because I like it, but also to test where they are, so whatever level they are at when I decided to sign up for a test is what I run. I will admit I don't run JH anymore, but it's mainly to do with the AKC system's idea of call-backs, $70 and something goes wrong, you maybe see one "dead" bird; just doesn't seem like a good investment to me. I'm only using the test as a gauge, I want the whole experience, I want to see all the birds. I think this is a big down-fall of the AKC system if your interested in hooking people, they should be selling the experience, not just whether you can get a ribbon-title. Also doubt I will be at that level long enough to title, you don't get any credit toward anything for 1-2 JH tests. I do run HRC started, it's fun there's no call-backs and individual test points do go to the later titles. Will also run NAHRA started or hunter, as around here they have adopted the get all your birds sentiment, including flyers; so it's worthwhile to throw a pup in, just to see.

I have judged a few juniors, and will admit to the tests being challenging (having different elements to them), thus the idea that JH are too easy, doesn't really compute. I have failed dogs for control issues including line manners (dogs should not be allowed to injure their handlers). I have failed dogs that bring back all the birds, because their scores were not such to make 70%. I have passed dogs who were border-line as the math adds up, but mostly I have tested dogs and their owners and everyone usually comes out knowing something more, ribbons or not. I don't think the standard needs to change, I think judges need to get a better idea what the standard is and what elements exactly we are testing the dogs for, it's not to just pick-up all the chickens, and it's not to give out participation ribbons (to keep people interested). A ribbon is always better when you've earned it.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Leave Junior alone. For the people wanting more from Junior, try getting AKC to recognize a Junior Advanced Title like the spaniel tests offer. If you really want to go big, set up a National Junior Club. Or even better, give out an Amateur Junior National Title and a Professional Junior National Title.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Based on what I've seen at the 50 or so events I've shot for or observes - it's plenty hard enough as it stands for most people who show up to run one. Most with some experience either have the dog ready for SH or MH and just to it for fun and exposure. For everyone else - it's hard enough holding onto the leash and not throwing up their lunch at the line. No need to change things.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

1tulip said:


> This may have come up in other threads, I can't find any that deal specifically with this question.
> 
> So here is my question. Are Junior Stakes asking too little of the dogs (and handlers)? Are they too easy?
> 
> ...


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

I am a junior and senior AKC judge. There is no reason to make the JH harder. More advanced handlers quickly forget a lot of training is required to succeed at the JH. The dog must be relatively steady. The dog must be able to mark, retrieve and deliver to hand both on land and water. The dog must be a good citizen. The dog must be fairly obedient. The handler and dog need to show they are a team. The handler needs to know how to best run the test while following the test rules. I favor keeping the standard, and making the tests fun and fair to encourage people to continue to train their dogs and move up the levels if they can.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

1tulip said:


> This may have come up in other threads, I can't find any that deal specifically with this question.
> 
> So here is my question. Are Junior Stakes asking too little of the dogs (and handlers)? Are they too easy? On the one hand, we want to bring newbies into the game, we want it to be fun and we want a high pass rate. I also get that Junior should test the "natural" abilities of the retriever.
> 
> ...



Tell them to run HRC.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

There is no differentiation in the rulebook for marks between levels, that being said not all marks are created equal. 

Can I use a choke chain in junior?

/Paul


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

chesaka said:


> 1tulip said:
> 
> 
> > This may have come up in other threads, I can't find any that deal specifically with this question.
> ...


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I dont mean to pick on you.. I have had my fair shrar of troublesome dogs.. BUT,,,
> 
> The bolden sentence above...
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion on this. And am very glad you're not picking on me.  

To answer your questions... as regards Junior:

1. yes. 
2. yes.
3. yes
4. ditto

Can she do it in Senior? Gosh! I don't know until I know. You mentioned doing something to my standards. Yes. In _training_, she does a pretty good triple mark/double blind. She's now steady. She pushes and pulls... I can pull her off a mark and run a blind. (I found out today she has her limit on this. We'll work on blinds.) And... she honors. In _training_! But I will probably be surprised (shocked) by what she does at her next HT. Why? Because I'm new at this and... we've run exactly 5 HT's.

So, I'm sorry. I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Is it not correct to run HT's for the purpose of finding out where the holes are? That's why we sign up for them. It isn't to boost my ego, I can tell you that for darn sure!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Itulp, Maybe in Nevada too easy. I don't know as I have never been there for a dog test. I think in TX, LA and OK they are just fine.
> 
> A couple of things that I saw that dropped a bunch of junior dogs.
> 1. A substantial log floating in the water enroute to the mark. Many junior dogs were baffled by this as they had never see it.
> ...


Some points others have made in this thread have caused me to reflect on our experiences to date. Everyone knows that the drought just all but ruined grounds that are normally great in CA and NV. It's been horrible. So, add to that the fact that Juniors get whatever sections of the grounds is left over... it probably explains what I've seen. No one has had optimal grounds. It's been tough. 

BUT... OMG. That is not the case now!!!


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## Austin.Burkdoll (Apr 11, 2017)

It's funny to me to come across this right after my first started hunt test. You can read about my experience in my recent post. My buddy also ran started, afterwords we were talking about it and he made a comment about wishing there wad a title between shr and hr. Also, when i joined up with the club i had numerous members tell me how getting that first ribbon hooked them onto the sport.

Guess what? I got a ribbon last weekend and had a terrible time because of my dogs poor line manners. My point is, and i have no akc hunt test experience, the started/ junior hunt test is fine as is. For one it's a great way to get new people involved. As someone who was in a fraternity we new rush was the future of the chapter, same goes with the hunt clubs imo. You need to recruit to replenish membership. 

If your desire is a higher title then the started/jh tests are not only good for new/amatuer trainers but it helps identify line manner issues really on and can prevent bigger issues, such as I'm dealing with, later on.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Great question. I say leave it easy. That way you'll suck the newbies into believing that all tests are easy guaranteeing much heartache, consternation and thousands of dollars spent chasing ribbons. Why should we old timers have all the fun?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Hopefully mandatory flyers will take effect this year and remove that component.


I think a point that was skipped over was did the JH tests have have a flyer? All the clubs around here always have flyers so we are used to them. The flyer can make a difference. I think Junior dogs should be able to handle a flyer.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think a point that was skipped over was did the JH tests have have a flyer? All the clubs around here always have flyers so we are used to them. The flyer can make a difference. I think Junior dogs should be able to handle a flyer.


And the shot flyer lays in the field belly up with wings flapping and the handler asks "can I get a re~bird?" :shock:


I think JH, HRC Started and NAHRA Started are a fun introduction into the retriever games.

A good judge in my opinion can throw minor factors into just about any set up.
Momentum, cover break, side of small grade etc.

Run Junior level tests and learn and enjoy with you new team mate.

Or not.............


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I have seen judges give a no bird of flyer still alive.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> I have seen judges give a no bird of flyer still alive.


Tom, was it you I met at WATKC FT some years back?
How you doin?

Was the flyer running?
Or was it belly up?

Just curious, most of us would prefer a flapper.
In fact, the standing joke is to tip the gunners!


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

road kill said:


> Was the flyer running?
> Or was it belly up?
> 
> Just curious, most of us would prefer a flapper.
> In fact, the standing joke is to tip the gunners!


I was watching a senior test a couple of years ago and the flier was a runner. The dog never gave up and finally caught the bird right in front of the galley. Quite a rodeo.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Dave Farrar said:


> I was watching a senior test a couple of years ago and the flier was a runner. The dog never gave up and finally caught the bird right in front of the galley. Quite a rodeo.


Something you'll never forget!


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## Bucwilson (Feb 7, 2015)

I think Jr is fine the way it is...maybe lower the entry fee.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Junior is fine the way it is. Some of us still like to go through the levels for lots of reasons. 

And I LOVE fliers in juniors. It's the most fun ever! Young dogs, still newer to birds....and if it's a crippled??? That is the BEST!!! When they get their first cripple it's something to see on their face on they way back. Excitement, joy...this is supposed to be FUN guys. Come on! They're dogs....


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Can I tell you one of my favorite Junior stories? It involved a bunch to Toller people who obviously showed their dogs in conformation. Really nice people, but you could tell from the way they dressed very professionally and had very nice, clean 2 WD vans that HT was not their normal venue. 

Well, the field that the judges were given to use was in a field of dense maybe knee or mid-thigh high grass. Flier was shot. Toller takes off and disappears into the grass. Next we see it it's leaping up (in AOF) trying to use his nose and his eyes. Lord only knows what the dog could scent in that deep grass with no wind. We would lose sight of him and he was hunting deep, hunting behind the gun, he crossed the road, came back plunged into the grass again. He'd disappear for long stretches. Sometimes he'd be leaping really almost on top of the bird. The owner (Oxford cloth button down shirt, clean chinos and loafers) you could tell he was sweating bullets. The tension amongst the toller crowd was getting palpable and spreading through the gallery. 

No one could tell exactly what the judges were telling the owner (who kept turning to look at them... like, "what do I do"?) but he'd turn back around and watch the grass rustle and an occasional spotting as the little dog leapt out of the grass.

I think this went on for a solid 10 or 12 minutes. Finally the toller comes out of the grass right in front of the owner with the duck in its mouth. And (as they say...) the crowd went wild. 

When he went for his next land mark, (one he could see) he tore off the line full tilt and snatched the bird up on the run to applause, cheers and whoops from the gallery. 

Junior can be a lot of fun.

And by-the-by... I think in Junior, the gallery plays a big role. Any dog that brings back a bird should be applauded. It breaks the tension and makes people feel good.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

1tulip said:


> ...Or should judges be encouraged to make the singles have some more factors. (Run across a road AND charge into some tall grass?...


Having never run AKC or harbored an intent to, I ignored this thread until seeing how it blew up overnight prompted me to read the OP, where I found the above. I'd like to think any pup of mine old enough to enter an AKC test (6 months?) would fail that test for not crossing any but a grass road without me at its side, and I'd certainly not wish to encourage one to.

Have tested a fair bit with the HRC and pass on Started, as it doesn't serve my particular (some would say "peculiar") purposes. But I've heard a lot of discussion about somehow narrowing the gap between Started and Seasoned and still believe keeping Started a very readily doable entry into testing the best course.


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

I do not have any issue with the current JR system, requirements and standards. JR is the gateway to get into the game and full of dogs and handlers that are new to the game and just learning. There are more issues in a JR then meets the eye, especially for newbies. To effectively pass a JR the dog needs (or at least should be) to be Force Fetched. That is a huge process for newbies. No sense in throwing other technical issues at them, they are puppies for goodness sake.

The one area that to me is the issue is Senior. There is such a huge gap in training and skills from Jr to Sr. Walkups, Honor, Steady, Doubles, Blinds, noise, Diversion (shot or birds) Sr has dogs that are just coming out of Jr and dogs that would breeze through a Master, its a difficult test to set up and judge fairly. 

I am not saying there needs to be any changes, I just feel that SR would be the place to start if they were going to do anything.


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## bohsandhoes (Jul 26, 2016)

As a newbie who didn't know what a hunt test was this time last year, I think the JH is GREAT. We made 3 straight passes and then failed on his last one. I learned a lot from those tests but that fail probably taught me the most. Either way that first test experience got me hooked and taught me a lot of things i never knew I had to learn. Just my two cents as one of the beginners everyone on this thread is referring to.

That being said, out of the four tests I've been too I have NEVER seen a live flyer. I didn't know the did those for juniors!! :shock:


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

bohsandhoes said:


> As a newbie who didn't know what a hunt test was this time last year, I think the JH is GREAT. We made 3 straight passes and then failed on his last one. I learned a lot from those tests but that fail probably taught me the most. Either way that first test experience got me hooked and taught me a lot of things i never knew I had to learn. Just my two cents as one of the beginners everyone on this thread is referring to.
> 
> That being said, out of the four tests I've been too I have NEVER seen a live flyer. I didn't know the did those for juniors!! :shock:


They should shoot fliers. Some of us don't really have access to a lot of them. Some of us don't hunt (shameful... but true.) Also entry fees for Junior are less than Master, but not that much less. So I think the minor stakes should have at least one flier. I wonder if sometimes clubs are short handed and the gunners might be limited. I don't know.

Did you have fun? Were the club people encouraging to you? Do you think the failure was more instructive than the successes?


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

Clubs would probably raise entry fees by 10 bucks to include a live flyer.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Zach Fisher said:


> Clubs would probably raise entry fees by 10 bucks to include a live flyer.


The number of live birds to be available per entry in each is dictated by AKC rule.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I'm astonished to hear that live flyers are rare in some areas of the country in Junior. I have not run a Junior test in about 10-11 years, but I think all 8 Junior tests that I ran with my 2 dogs included live flyers. The only AKC test that I've ever attended that did not have a live flyer in all stakes was in TN and there was some kind of preserve license that would have been required and apparently by the time it was determined that the license was needed it was too late to get it...or something like that. I have run HRC and AKC and like them both. Having said that, there are things I like better about HRC and other things l like better about AKC. One of the things that I like better about AKC is the live flyer and it is definitely one of the things that makes Junior more "difficult" than HRC Started. The other things are that Junior requires delivery to hand while Started does not. Also, and this isn't a rule but still a very common difference, in Junior your water marks tend to land on land which means the dog has to cross the water and be willing to leave the water's edge and drive up onto land for the bird...plus there is no splash to aid their marking in that instance. In Started your water marks are almost always in the water with a nice splash.

Junior is hard enough for most of the people running it IMO, but I hate to hear that flyers are not common in Junior everywhere.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Most clubs in the New England use flyers in Junior.

The clubs I belong to, Shoreline and Yankee Waterfowlers, encourage the Junior judges to use 2 flyers. Entry fee for Junior at Shoreline (June 16) is $75. Expect challenging tests judged fairly.-Paul


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

It's hit or miss with fliers on the east coast. 6 dogs in junior, only 3 had fliers in tests. Finding shooters is a big issue. Not actually having the fliers.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

I have only ran 4 akc junior hunt tests but all had a live flyer . when I first changed from hrc to akc I didn't think the flyer would make that big of a difference but it does I'm glad I trained for it. it took a fire breather to a maniac in the holding blind on the first test we ran. i'm still fighting that now that we moved to senior. some how he knows the day of the hunt test where we are going and gets nuts the closer we get.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

suepuff said:


> It's hit or miss with fliers on the east coast. 6 dogs in junior, only 3 had fliers in tests. Finding shooters is a big issue. Not actually having the fliers.


After this summer it won't be hit or miss (no pun intended).


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Thomas D said:


> After this summer it won't be hit or miss (no pun intended).


Lol. Haven't read the rule book yet this spring. Just downloaded the recent version. So fliers are a MUST now in juniors? Finding shooters is still going to be an issue. As many people have mentioned earlier, people skip the lower levels....I'm not opposed, just something else to work on.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Haven't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been mentioned but, with the increase in numbers recently (especially at Master) clubs don't always have available grounds to set up good junior tests; since the upper levels will get the priority pick of the grounds. Sometimes all they have is a flat, featureless field next to a round pond and to stay within the rules they have to throw easy splash marks on water and easy featureless land marks.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Don't really understand with all of the folks running "hunt tests", clubs can't find anyone to actually shoot a bird.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

captainjack said:


> Don't really understand with all of the folks running "hunt tests", clubs can't find anyone to actually shoot a bird.


 

Haven't we had discussions about how many non hunters participate now? And the people that can hunt and train regularly tend to hang out at the higher stakes. I'm one of those non hunters. I shoot clays a couple times a year. I hit about 10% of them. My club couldn't afford for me to shoot! ;-)


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> Haven't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been mentioned but, with the increase in numbers recently (especially at Master) clubs don't always have available grounds to set up good junior tests; since the upper levels will get the priority pick of the grounds. Sometimes all they have is a flat, featureless field next to a round pond and to stay within the rules they have to throw easy splash marks on water and easy featureless land marks.


I think it's pretty sad that the quality of Junior tests have to suffer due to an inordinate emphasis on Master tests. With some planning, this need not be the case. Junior and senior can use the same grounds. Just schedule Junior for Saturday and Senior for Sunday. As far as shooters go, most Skeet clubs have a few guys or gals willing to donate a morning or afternoon. The club just needs to show them what is necessary and provide someone to throw/launch the birds.

Mandatory flyers for Junior is a great idea, in my opinion. It affords the judges much more data on the dogs skills, desire and manners.-Paul


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I have always wondered if any club has offered for their participants to buy their flyer - That is you pay 'x' amount extra and get to take that bird home for training.


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Junior tests I've witnessed have been very good junior tests. A junior dog is just that a junior dog, some people will never own more than a junior dog. If the pup is willing to tromp through 80 to 100 yards of cover to bring back a bird and enters the water with a good attitude , has reasonable control on the line and will deliver the bird to hand then its a junior hunter. 

A smart handler will spend time at the other stakes and see whats in store for the future, some folks may decide to pursue further titles some folks will not. but in my humble opinion I would not worry about how we can increase the difficulty of the junior tests. Let the juniors be juniors.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> I have always wondered if any club has offered for their participants to buy their flyer - That is you pay 'x' amount extra and get to take that bird home for training.


Clubs do sell or give away birds. You can't sell all the flyers or there'd be no quality birds for a 2nd series.

After tests are done, sell away.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I have always wondered if any club has offered for their participants to buy their flyer - That is you pay 'x' amount extra and get to take that bird home for training.


I host an American Chesapeake Club field day at my farm every year and this is what we do. Since the event is more geared to beginners, probably over half of those that buy them aren't ready for their dog to retrieve a fresh shot bird, but they happily shell out the money so they can take a dead duck home to freeze for later use. It helps offset the ducks the club buys to get things started and provides those that come help an opportunity to run their dog on a flyer.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I've not read thru all the comments but you obviously didn't run JH tests 10-15 yrs ago when it wasn't unusual to see Land / water/ land (as in an island or peninsula)/ water and land for at least one mark. And maybe just maybe you as handler had to take the dog (while holding that duck) 20 - 30 yrds away to the line to the next mark. 

I don't necessarily like the plop plop fizz fizz tests but have seen a wide range in the past 18 yrs or more.

PS, I'd be po'd if there were not live flyers at JH. We typically see 2 at each test here in WA.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Daren Galloway said:


> That would've been a good thought.
> 
> You seem to know what deficiencies your dog has, why don't you train? If you train your own dog how can you be so nervous going to the line and not have a routine? Do you not have that same routine in training? If not you should.


We've both trained with a guy here in Wisconsin that subscribes to this theory. One thing I've learned from him is that you can't relax the standards for your own dogs just because they're under judgement. He's picked up his dogs in the middle of the third series of an open for two whistle refusals. Now he's getting ready to run a national. He holds his dogs to a much higher standard than any judge will at any level and look where it's gotten him.

If newer handlers want to come out and hope their dog does enough to finish a junior test, let them. If you want to play the game beyond junior, understand what will be expected at higher stakes, then train for it and hold yourself and your dog accountable for it. If you a handler needs to pick up a dog to avoid promoting a bad habit, then do it. It'll cost way more than an entry fee to fix bad habits developed through complacency. IMO, the judges at that level also owe a service to novice handlers. Whether my dog passed or failed, I always asked the judges what needed to be improved. Most judges respect that and will provide feedback.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

suepuff said:


> Haven't we had discussions about how many non hunters participate now? And the people that can hunt and train regularly tend to hang out at the higher stakes. I'm one of those non hunters. I shoot clays a couple times a year. I hit about 10% of them. My club couldn't afford for me to shoot! ;-)


Ha I've always found most hunters to be quite horrible shots, in testing scenarios; difference btw hunter and non-hunters is that they always believe they are excellent shooters, at least the non-hunters, are so terrified of the gun that they are convinced that they couldn't hit anything  Worst shots I've seen in flyer shooting are competitive shooters and Cops-military; but you have a hard time convincing them of that, until you've got 3 of them out trying to hit one bird, with 9 shots and the thrower a club member is the one that actually kills the bird . Of course these type of shooters invariably end-up in Juniors.

I thought flyers in all stakes of AKC were a requirement? Haven't ever seen a test without out them, and usually 2 in all stakes. Would also be pretty "growl" about spending $60-$75 in a stake and not getting a flyer. Flyer=$15-$20 gives the club $20-$40 left-over profit to throw dead birds. How does one justify a $60-$70 entry and 4 dead-birds.


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## bohsandhoes (Jul 26, 2016)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I thought flyers in all stakes of AKC were a requirement? Haven't ever seen a test without out them, and usually 2 in all stakes. Would also be pretty "growl" about spending $60-$75 in a stake and not getting a flyer. Flyer=$15-$20 gives the club $20-$40 left-over profit to throw dead birds. How does one justify a $60-$70 entry and 4 dead-birds.



I have been to six tests now and the two that I went to in Greenwood, DE this weekend was the first time I had seen live flyers. They offered one in both junior and senior. It was pretty neat considering I just read this thread this week. I wish I had entered my dog so he could have got one but I was just there volunteering. Also, the junior test this weekend was $75 and it was the cheapest test I have been to. I paid $85 for the other 4 tests I ran without fliers


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

You can count on first state to continue doing things right, I believe based on those running things.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

bohsandhoes said:


> I have been to six tests now and the two that I went to in Greenwood, DE this weekend was the first time I had seen live flyers. They offered one in both junior and senior. It was pretty neat considering I just read this thread this week. I wish I had entered my dog so he could have got one but I was just there volunteering. Also, the junior test this weekend was $75 and it was the cheapest test I have been to. I paid $85 for the other 4 tests I ran without fliers


Some clubs are more interested in making money and some clubs are more interested in putting on a quality event for all levels. The clubs I belong to somehow manage to do both, year after year.  -Paul


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Didn't read through this whole thread but I junior tests I have seen are fine. I do think though that they should be required to come to the line off leash. Really not that big of a deal. Don't have to be steady, still hold the collar but should be able to heal off leash. It is less of a training issue than deliver to hand and pretty simple to train for.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

1tulip said:


> This may have come up in other threads, I can't find any that deal specifically with this question.
> 
> So here is my question. Are Junior Stakes asking too little of the dogs (and handlers)? Are they too easy? On the one hand, we want to bring newbies into the game, we want it to be fun and we want a high pass rate. I also get that Junior should test the "natural" abilities of the retriever.
> 
> ...


The “Rules” as described in the AKC Regulations and Guidelines are fine the way they are.


The real issue if I can be blunt, is the Judges have become lazy when it comes to setting up Junior Tests and evaluating Junior dogs. They do the absolute minimum required of them by the AKC and no more. If you have a single flight of 70 or 80 Junior dogs to get through, time management may dictate that you keep things as bare bones as possible, but entries of that size in Junior don't happen all that often anymore. There is more than adequate daylight to include enough elements in a days testing to thoroughly evaluate a dog, and develop a solid understanding of what the dog is capable of.(Would you actually hunt with this dog?) 


A Junior dog is supposed to be a serviceable hunting companion. That means a whole lot more than just bringing back a few chickens. There is, as insignificant as it seems to some, a minimal degree of trained refinement required of a “Serviceable” hunting companion. Tests should be designed to evaluate those traits and learned abilities. After testing the dog, you should be able to answer “Is this dog an asset in the field or is it a pain in the butt?” Would you really take this dog hunting or does it need more work? 


There are no awards for completing the entire Junior Test an hour before lunch time, but that is the attitude many of the Judges have now when it comes to Junior Tests. They want to toss two marks on land and two marks on water as quickly as they can so they can get the hell out of there and go do something else. That kind of attitude really doesn't lend itself to fair and thorough evaluation of a dog, it's handler, or their abilities to work together as a team.


There are numerous YouTube videos of Junior Tests available for viewing. Most of the tests didn't have the numerous decoys asked for in the Regulations and Guidelines, many didn't even include a single decoy. Were there boats? Nope. Were there live shot flyers? Not as often as there should have been. Were there elements included to test the dogs response, on lead and off lead? How did the dog respond to people? Again, not as much included as there should have been.


How do you evaluate obedience and response to the handler when you don't include enough elements in the test to allow the dog and handler to demonstrate those skills?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

bohsandhoes said:


> I have been to six tests now and the two that I went to in Greenwood, DE this weekend was the first time I had seen live flyers. They offered one in both junior and senior. It was pretty neat considering I just read this thread this week. I wish I had entered my dog so he could have got one but I was just there volunteering. Also, the junior test this weekend was $75 and it was the cheapest test I have been to. I paid $85 for the other 4 tests I ran without fliers


Our club does its best to provide pheasants for land and ducks for water. Flyers included.


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

If there is one thing I've learned about tests through this journey it's that bird placement is a key factor. Can't tell you how many times you hear "it's just singles." You can be humbled really quickly, even in Junior. I was taught to keep my standards high. I'm an amateur and trained my own dog. Yes, I took lessons but put the time in and really tried to listen. Thankfully nobody cut me any slack and called me on it every time I tried to come up with an excuse. 

Now I'm judging Junior and Senior. The first thing I evaluate on the grounds I'm given is dog safety. After that I try to look at bird placement. Sometimes allowable distance and factors make good placement hard. In fact judging is much harder than I thought it would be (not that I thought it would be easy by any means). I've had handlers tell me a test was easy and recently was told it was the hardest one they've run (Senior). I'd much rather have someone come tell me my test was difficult (not undoable) with a smile on their face than tell me it was easy with that same smile. I owe that to the guy who started me out and am lucky he held my dog and I to a high standard from the beginning.

As a fairly new judge why does my opinion amount to anything? 

Because when I started out all I wanted was a hunting dog ...


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