# Hybrid training method for a better whistle sit??



## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

I’d been having a tough time getting my dog to whistle sit at a distance en route to the pile in double T following Rick Stawski's Fowl Dawgs program. He’d either come to a gradual looping halt and sit VERY slowly, simply slow down, or continue charging to the pile. 

At Evan’s Graham’s video advice in a different whistle sit thread on RTF, I put the dog back on a rope and went back to mini T, stopping him with the rope the instant I blew the whistle (keep in mind that’s the Reader’s Digest version of Evan's method). 

Well, first off, I quickly realized my dog’s whistle sit in mini T was just as bad as during the TT. And despite using Evan’s rope method for quite awhile, the dog didn’t improve much…Sure, he learned to hit the brakes a bit when I blew the whistle, but he wouldn’t sit immediately, and he’d only slowly turn around to face me as he sat. I tried stopping him shorter with the rope, but that didn't help either. He’d just slow down at the sound of the whistle (without turning and/or sitting), or even blow through it entirely and hit the end of the rope then stand there dumbfounded.

He KNOWS what the sit whistle means—he just won’t do it en route to a pile.

So last night on a whim I borrowed a page from a positive-reinforcement playbook, putting a bumper in my back pocket during the drill. I’d send the dog to the pile and then stop him with the rope/whistle. When he turned and sat, I immediately gave him a fun bumper toss with the one I had in my back pocket.

After just a few rounds of this, the dog’s sit improved dramatically. He was coming to a halt much faster and was turning a perfect 180 degrees to face me as he sat almost every time I blew the whistle.

On the other hand, I noticed that despite the fact I gave him a few free sends (no whistle stops) between whistle sit sends, his momentum to the pile broke down a bit awhile after I started this…….it was as if he was anticipating the whistle sit and subsequent fun bumper throw. 

I called it a night and slept on it.

The apparent side-effect of decreased momentum got me thinking…………is incorporating a reward here a “dangerous” way to clean up my dog’s whistle sits?? The trick definitely seemed to get elicit the desired behavior and help the dog understand what I expected. On the other hand, I don't want to be creating new problems in the process.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

Ryan


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## rabersin (Dec 2, 2009)

I guess I am not understanding; you send your dog to the pile, blow your whistle, use your rope to stop the dog; when the dog complies, you throw a fun bumper. Do you throw the bumper to the pile? I do not understand if the dog retrieves a fun bumper, how do you take him from a sit and handle him to the pile? The description you give seems to only deal with the whistle sit, and not getting the dog to the back pile or completing their "T" work.


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

He doesn't have a problem with handling--he's long since gotten that nailed. Once he sits, he'll reliably follow any cast I give him.

The sitting (quickly and relaibly) and turning to face me is where he's struggling.

To clarify, though, when I experimented with the fun bumper thing, I threw it just off to my side--not to the back or over piles.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Is the dog collar conditioned? If he knows what sit means and is slow, a continuous until he sits would get the message across....

Ameture opinion


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## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

Obabikon said:


> At Evan’s Graham’s video advice in a different whistle sit thread on RTF, I put the dog back on a rope and went back to mini T, stopping him with the rope the instant I blew the whistle (keep in mind that’s the Reader’s Digest version of Evan's method).


No pro here but I am following Evans program and I'm about where you are. make sure his OB is sound and I CC to sit then moved right to mini T and this is what I have. You will get some good info Good Luck!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

By your current description, it sounds more like a deficit in your CC to "Sit". That must be sharp first. If he won't sit quickly with in a few feet, why would he be efficient further away?

Evan


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Hmmmm...I honestly don't know how he could possibly be more CC'd to "sit." We worked at that at length....I can't quote you the number of days or weeks, but it was extensive, and I'd definitely say he was as solid as a dog could be by the end of the process. It wasn't until Mini T that I ran into problems getting him to sit on command--verbal or whistle.

Granted, I'll be the first to admit that he didn't and still doesn't sit on the "sit" command 100 percent of the time, in every location, situation, distraction level, etc., but if I waited for that I think he'd be dead of old age before I'd have worked on mini-T.....I'm only half kidding.

Evan, when do you consider a dog CC'd to the point you can move onto mini T and actually get somewhere?

I don't know if this matters but distance doesn't seem to be the problem, as I can get him to whistle sit from as far as a couple hundred yards away IF he's not running toward a bumper.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

When he ignores the sit whistle, your immediate response should be toot nick toot (since you say he is cc, then he should be able to experience the displeasure of collar when known command is ignored).

Since you say he is not 100 percent reliable, then you are letting him get away with it elsewhere by not enforcing it with toot nick toot and that has carried over to T and TT.

Good luck


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Good for you for thinking outside the box. 

Train the dog your training.... ;-)

If what your doing is getting the results you want, then it is the right way for your particular dog.

Blowing a sit whistle and tossing a bumper directly in front of the dog can and will get you a snappy sit. 

Break it down and do this while the dog is just messing around before you set out the back pile. 

You want to throw the bumper directly in line with the dog , not off to one side, because you want the dog sitting square and looking at you. Then give him a "come in" whistle with your usual "come in" body language. You can do it to one side but then you have to wait til the dog is looking at you before you cast him to the bumper and if he moves his butt you have lost that square sit.

The dog will anticipate the whistle but heck most lose momentum once you start handling on the T in the "standard" fashion anyway.

You don't do the tossing the bumper at the dog forever... just until the dog has learned that what you want is a snappy sit. Send the dog through to the back pile most of the time as you usually would. Most dogs will get it in session or too

Then start mixing it up. Send through, come in, back cast. 

Actually it isn't anything new it's in James Spencer's Retriever Training Drills - Blind Retrieves 

Regards,
Linda


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I think the happy bumper is risky. Could start anticiapting the bumper and start popping. I would use continous collar pressure till his but is on the ground.
It's a little late but now but this is how I teach whistle sit. I dont teach it as a lesson by itself. I teach it when first begining 3 handed casting. I simply blow the whistle everytime before I give a cast. This will be the first time the dog has ever heard the sit whistle. I have done 8 to 10 dogs this way and so far everyone of them has stopped turned and sat on the whistle without a problem the first time the whistle was blown while in route to the pile. This way they anticipate the cast and a bumper with the whistle and are quick to respond. Come to think of it it is pretty much the same as your happy bumper except that the next move will a cast to a pile which is what you want instead of tossing a bumper.
I still occaisionally have to clean up a slow or loopy sit with the collar but I really like this method. It saves time and work by teaching two things at once, no need to teach whistle sit as a lesson by itself.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

I like the 3-handed casting idea! I don't see where tossing a bumper could create any more of a popping issue than Whistle SIT could by commanding it en-route...the dog could also anticipate a Whistle SIT. It's also a good way of getting the dog to SIT square to you when he does SIT, and by stopping when whistled, the _retrieve_ with the fun bumper is/could be the reward. I agree though, that if the dog is CC'd, Whistle SIT needs to be re-enforced.


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, I have an update on this. Yesterday evening I checked this thread, which at that time ended with Evan's post.

Afterwards, I headed outside with the dog and did a short review of CC to the sit command and the whistle--no bumpers, no mini T.

Then I went back to Evan's mini T drill I mentioned yesterday. 

I don't know if it was the result of the CC review, the fun bumper gimick, or a combination of the two, but it was as if I was dealing with a completely different dog than two days ago. I don't think the dog ever hit the end of the rope when I gave him a sit whistle.....he slammed on the brakes and spun around to face me head-on every time I blew the whistle!

I think I gave him one or two fun bumpers for particularly excellent whistle sits, but aside from those, I just cast him to one of the piles, which he did just fine.

His momentum occasionally broke down a little, but from what others have said here that seems to be expected, and I think I can fix.

Now that he seems to get the picture, I think I'll permanently stop the fun bumpers and reinforce the proper whistle sit.

Thanks for all the help, everyone!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I had a looping sit problem with my first dog and someone here suggested that on a come in bumper, slip a nice bird in there once in awhile. It worked pretty well. The dog started turning around quick and sitting in hopes that he'd get whistled in to pick up a bird.

I didn't sit the dog and throw it out there like a fun retrieve, I tossed it out while the dog was in route, then sat the dog and whistled it in so it would stumble over the bird on the way in.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Obabikon said:


> Hmmmm...I honestly don't know how he could possibly be more CC'd to "sit." We worked at that at length....I can't quote you the number of days or weeks, but it was extensive, and I'd definitely say he was as solid as a dog could be by the end of the process. It wasn't until Mini T that I ran into problems getting him to sit on command--verbal or whistle.


It's not a matter of spending a lot of time. It's a matter of getting results. I get asked questions all the time about "How can I tell when to move on? How can I tell when I've done 'x,y,z' enough?" You can tell when the dog obeys reliably. That's the point of training. They don't ever become perfect. They become reliable.


obabikon said:


> Evan, when do you consider a dog CC'd to the point you can move onto mini T and actually get somewhere?


See above.

What cued me about a CC deficit is an unreliable response to command you stated previously.


obabikon said:


> Well, first off, I quickly realized *my dog’s whistle sit in mini T was just as bad as during the TT*. And despite using Evan’s rope method for quite awhile, the dog didn’t improve much…Sure, he learned to hit the brakes a bit when I blew the whistle, but *he wouldn’t sit immediately*, and he’d only slowly turn around to face me as he sat.


It isn't likely to get better somewhere else, if you can't get it in the structured confines of a T drill.

Evan


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification, Evan.

I'm glad you said a dog is CC'd to a command when it obeys it "reliably" and not "always." I was beginning to think I was never going to be able to move ahead.

But then again, I guess I’m still confused about something…….

I (and I’m sure others here) have run into situations where I’m 100 percent confident that my dog is reliable with something, but then I move on to the next step in the process only to find that he’s completely _*unreliable *_with that same command/behavior in that new situation.

In this case it was “sit”…..dog was very reliable with the command after collar conditioning while doing anything BUT being sent to fetch a bumper. Then it fell apart. 

Obviously, he wasn’t nearly as reliable as I thought, but I couldn’t see that until I moved ahead. 

That’s what I was trying to ask you about—are there any telltale signs that a dog that appears reliable isn’t BEFORE you move on to the next step and have him crash and burn?


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

The one thing I have learned is that whenever you add a new thing into the mix, they will act a little bit confused about what they may have already learned, because you have just added a little wrinkle and as a result, it may confuse them.

However, with your sit issue, you have stated previously to your own admission in this thread, that he was not reliable with sit, no matter the situation.

It is a balancing act. Stay or move on. One thing I have learned is that if I start to move on and I find myself dealing with more problems that should be, I HAVE to take a step back and revisit what I just completed. Usually after 2 sessions or so, I am then able to resume back to where I started to go.

Good luck


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## PocketLab (Apr 23, 2010)

Evan, I was reading Smartworks last night. You addressed a looping sit by forcing a tighter cast to the cast to the pile. Am I correct?


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Zman1001 said:


> However, with your sit issue, you have stated previously to your own admission in this thread, that he was not reliable with sit, no matter the situation.


Oops--I just went back to the post of mine that you must be referring to (below) and see where the confusion is coming from.....



Obabikon said:


> Granted, I'll be the first to admit that he didn't and still doesn't sit on the "sit" command 100 percent of the time, in every location, situation, distraction level, etc.


I think I used a double-negative....my English teacher would not have been proud  I didn't mean my dog _fails _to sit on command 100 percent of the time. I meant that he hadn't ALWAYS been 100 percent perfect ALL the time in EVERY situation. 

In other words, he drops the ball and screws up once in a great while--he's certainly been reliable, however.

It wasn't until I started whistle sits en route to a pile of bumpers that he became unreliable.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Swampbilly said:


> I like the 3-handed casting idea! I don't see where tossing a bumper could create any more of a popping issue than Whistle SIT could by commanding it en-route...the dog could also anticipate a Whistle SIT. It's also a good way of getting the dog to SIT square to you when he does SIT, and by stopping when whistled, the _retrieve_ with the fun bumper is/could be the reward. I agree though, that if the dog is CC'd, Whistle SIT needs to be re-enforced.


 


Yes the dog could also anticipate the whistle sit. That's why you send them straight through to the back pile about 4 times to every 1 time you blow the sit whistle. If you see the dog slowing in anticipation of the whistle a simple back nick back takes care of it. Doesnt take him long to figure out he only stops and sits when he hears the whistle.
I do very little fun bumpers anymore. Dogs get obsessed with them. The way most dogs react to fun bumpers I think it could cause popping but maybe not. When I stop a dog on the whistle I want him thinking cast not fun bumper. Where would you throw the fun bumper? In front of the dog so it would have to come in? I wouldnt think that would be a good idea. You want the momentem going away not coming in. I just dont feel this is the time or the place for a fun bumper.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

To the OP -- you gotta get creative sometimes and congrats, you did it 
I have done the same thing to reward a particularly great sit whistle on T and it is very motivating to the dog.
As far as him losing momentum to the back pile, that is normal in T work, most dogs do that to some degree or another. It's not until they thoroughly understand what is being asked of them that they regain their momentum. If I run T as a drill with my older dog, you can see him pick up speed after he passes the intersection if I do not stop him. He understands when the whistle might happen but that he's home free if he is not stopped. I think this is cool and I know he understands the game. Sounds like you've got a fun and enthusiastic dog! Best of luck,


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PocketLab said:


> Evan, I was reading Smartworks last night. You addressed a looping sit by forcing a tighter cast to the cast to the pile. Am I correct?


That was for a looping cast. A dog with inadequate momentum will often cast in a wide loop. That can often produce a need for additional casts due to inaccuracy. Better forcing on "Back" produces increased momentum, and intensity, which produces a tighter rotation on Back casts.

That, like all other things, is also dependent on a well balanced training regimen. The frequent mistake is confusing "momentum" with "style". They are not the same things. You can force momentum. You cannot force style.

Evan


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

I am surprised no one mentioned putting the ecollar around the dogs waist...or maybe that is just assumed with proper CC to sit.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Labs said:


> I am surprised no one mentioned putting the ecollar around the dogs waist...or maybe that is just assumed with proper CC to sit.



I was thinking the same thing, but if he is using Smartworks then he probably is doing that.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

PocketLab said:


> Evan, I was reading Smartworks last night. You addressed a looping sit by forcing a tighter cast to the cast to the pile. Am I correct?




BB blinds will help with the loopy sits. I'll be doing those this weekend myself.


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