# NAFC!! Is there such an animal. A REAL AMATEUR TRAINED CHAMPION?



## Tommy Wallace (Jun 13, 2008)

I was looking at the new Retriever News Mag. for June 2013. Congrats again to Chad & Traveler.
I was looking at the first winner NFC-AFC Major Vl. 
Definition :Amateur- Not Professional

But, the winner was a NFC. Has there ever been a NAFC that was not Pro trained?

Is there a event where there are actual amateur trained dogs for a relevant title.

I have noticed that even in the Hunt test games there are really hardly any amateur trained dogs.

Notice: I am not knocking the pros - the people that have or want to get help with thier dogs. 

A lot of the people that I see have at some point either have a pro take on a major part of thier training and take the credit for thier dog being called amateur trained . Is there anyone that has a real amateur trained dog & has reached a major event such as the NAFC?


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## elingler (Oct 7, 2009)

I don't have a dog running the NAFC but my dodoes have his HRCH UH and is one pass from his MH title has derby JAMS and we even walked to the line in a AM in a ft and wasn't embarrassed at all and he is 100% amateur trained and he is only my second dog I have ever owned. Yeah he might never be a FC or AFC but to me it's about the journey.


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## Erin O'Brien (Mar 5, 2010)

There's been quite a few. I believe ken Neil trains his own, Dennis Bath, Newt Cropper. Sorry if my list isn't super accurate, just going by what I see and I could be wrong. Many more I'm sure though. Just because they run the open, doesn't mean they're being run by a pro. Lots of ams run in the open and nat'l open.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Lots of them...right off the top of my head 

1974 NAFC Ray's Rascal - Ray Goodrich

1982 NAFC FC CNFC Piper's Pacer- Roy McFall

and I think NAFC NFC CNFC Wanapum Dart's Dandy- Charlie Hill


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Is there anyone that has a real amateur trained dog & has reached a major event such as the NAFC?


My bitch, FC/AFC Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog, has never been at a pro's or run by a pro although I have day trained with a pro a day or two here and a week there. She has qualified for several NAFC's but alas, has never been to one.

Roy McFall's FC/86(?)NAFC CNAFTCH Piper's Pacer was trained by Roy an amateur. 

There are amateur trained dogs that make it to the NAFC every year that are amateur trained.

I wouldn't brood to much on pro vs amateur trained dogs. Think more about getting the best dog you can the best training you can.

This year, I know for sure that dog number 101 AFC Fishook Megan is entirely amateur trained by one of my training partners Eloy Garcia.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Nikki Malarky said:


> I was looking at the new Retriever News Mag. for June 2013. Congrats again to Chad & Traveler.
> I was looking at the first winner NFC-AFC Major Vl.
> Definition :Amateur- Not Professional
> 
> ...


Are you asking about dogs that qualified to run the National Am, or dogs that have titled NAFC?

A bunch of dogs running in this year's National Am are amateur trained.


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

mitty said:


> Are you asking about dogs that qualified to run the National Am, or dogs that have titled NAFC?
> 
> A bunch of dogs running in this year's National Am are amateur trained.


Could you give a list of those running this year who are 100% Amateur trained?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

smillerdvm said:


> Could you give a list of those running this year who are 100% Amateur trained?



Chris Hatch and Saber

would have been his training partner too had he entered

Don Graves and Ruby


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Lots of them...right off the top of my head
> 
> 1974 NAFC Ray's Rascal - Ray Goodrich
> 
> ...



Bon,

Your going along way's back in time, I'm sure every year a certain percentage of the dogs Qualified are 100% Am trained, but if you go back and do the numbers on the dogs that make it to the final, those numbers are pretty slim. I would venture to say 95 % of ALL finalist's in the past have had a Pro put a hand over there head during some part of there training... Not that theres anything wrong with it but lets not be fooled by the fact that most of these dogs are and have been pro trained most of there life...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> Bon,
> 
> Your going along way's back in time, I'm sure every year a certain percentage of the dogs Qualified are 100% Am trained, but if you go back and do the numbers on the dogs that make it to the final, those numbers are pretty slim. I would venture to say 95 % of ALL finalist's in the past have had a Pro put a hand over there head during some part of there training...


Todd the OP Question was has there ever been an NAFC that was amateur trained


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## caduckman6 (Mar 30, 2008)

thank bon I was going to point that out about chris hatch he is all am


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

smillerdvm said:


> Could you give a list of those running this year who are 100% Amateur trained?


Here's a few that I think I know:

39. AFC Rockliffs Justdoit (Nike), LM, Paul Foster

86. AFC-CFC-CAFC Upon The Wings Of An Answered Prayer (Ammo), LF, Bill Petrovish

114. FC-AFC Red Butte’s Tiger Lilly (Lilly), LF, Joseph Taylor

Dog #114's owner/handler is my training partner, an excellent mentor. I believe he has done close to 100% of the training on Lilly, I have thrown many birds for her this past year. Ammo and Nike I know less well, but I believe they are amateur trained.

How about Al Wilson, one of the judges? I am under the impression he has trained his own dogs. I think 2 of them qualified for the national am this year, but obviously could not compete.

And then you have Howard's dog(s), who qualified but did not run.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

If you cant beat em'... talk about em'


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Erin O'Brien said:


> There's been quite a few. I believe ken Neil trains his own, Dennis Bath, Newt Cropper. Sorry if my list isn't super accurate, just going by what I see and I could be wrong. Many more I'm sure though. Just because they run the open, doesn't mean they're being run by a pro. Lots of ams run in the open and nat'l open.


All of those you mention use pros for some portion of their dogs training. Dennis & Ken have routinely used a pro for young dog training to 18 mos - 2yrs & at least some problem solving thereafter. Ken trains with pros most every day. Not saying that's bad, it's just what they do (like most of us).

To the OP's question, it seems to be inferred that the NARC and the NAFC title is about amateur "trained" dogs when it was never envisioned as such. It originated to enable amateur handlers to compete among themselves for a nat'l title.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

A couple of Am trained are Sharon Gierman's
*49. FC-AFC-CNFC-CAFC Taylorlab Calumet's Big Blue
**111. AFC Mjolnir's There and Back Again

*​OP notice the CNFC on Blue. Totally am trained.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Chris Hatch is 100% amateur. He bred Saber, he trained Saber, he runs Saber. This is Saber's 5th time he has qualified to run in a National Amateur. He and Chris were finalists in the 2011 National Am. Saber has had a great year so far. 

I am keeping my fingerers crossed that this is the year for Chris and Saber. Keep your eye on #18. After 5 series, he is doing well. 

Don is regretting now that he did not enter Ruby. He wishes he was there with his training partner facing each day's challenging tests with Chris (instead of painting our house). I never told him they could not go; it was his decision. We both now regret it as Ruby will be 9 years old the end of October. Well, there is always next year with an almost 10 year old with frost on her muzzle, right? 

Helen


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## Tommy Wallace (Jun 13, 2008)

Howard N said:


> My bitch, FC/AFC Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog, has never been at a pro's or run by a pro although I have day trained with a pro a day or two here and a week there. She has qualified for several NAFC's but alas, has never been to one.
> 
> Roy McFall's FC/86(?)NAFC CNAFTCH Piper's Pacer was trained by Roy an amateur.
> 
> ...


This is what I think I'm wondering about. I don't care that anyone trains better than me or what they have to do to get thier dog to where they want them. 
It's just kinda like the Golf US Open. A real Am. can qualify & could win. I'm just wondering if there are dogs out there in this event that are like Howards that are (TRAINED) by real Am. 
It would also be nice for real amateurs to have a place to compete against other amateurs without having to go up against the pros also. Or an event!!
If it is suppose to be an amatuer event an it is made up of so many pros then it kinda reminds me of the Little League World Series where you think you are competeing on the same level & then you find out the clean shaven kid that is really 18 has been blowing all your batters away is 18 instead of 13.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Nikki Malarky said:


> This is what I think I'm wondering about. I don't care that anyone trains better than me or what they have to do to get thier dog to where they want them.
> It's just kinda like the Golf US Open. A real Am. can qualify & could win. I'm just wondering if there are dogs out there in this event that are like Howards that are (TRAINED) by real Am.
> It would also be nice for real amateurs to have a place to compete against other amateurs without having to go up against the pros also. Or an event!!
> If it is suppose to be an amatuer event an it is made up of so many pros then it kinda reminds me of the Little League World Series where you think you are competeing on the same level & then you find out the clean shaven kid that is really 18 has been blowing all your batters away is 18 instead of 13.


Amateurs already compete in the Am. I am not sure how you would do your 'real amateur' stake. Are you a real amateur if you are retired? Married to a billionaire? A trustafarian? What if you work but only work 40 hours a week? Will there be separate stake for those of us who work 80 and above per week so we don't have to compete with the folks that can train after work?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Not like it was years ago, you need the time, you have to have the help, you have to have access to birds/flyers, you have to have money, can't drink frozen water too long, need decent training areas, etc., etc. I have been on both sides of the fence FC/AFC totally amateur trained struggled every day , another FC/AFC had pro enter picture a few winter trips, national finalist. What one would you want? Thump your chest and say I did it all by my lonesome, but, just couldn't make the dog "to be all they can be". Me thinks I would like to have all I can get! Oh by the way you have to have a good dog too! This amateur thing always amuses me, usually by those who haven't made the journey at a high level. It ain't easy.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Nikki Malarky said:


> This is what I think I'm wondering about. I don't care that anyone trains better than me or what they have to do to get thier dog to where they want them.
> *It's just kinda like the Golf US Open. A real Am.* can qualify & could win. I'm just wondering if there are dogs out there in this event that are like Howards that are (TRAINED) by real Am.
> It would also be nice for real amateurs to have a place to compete against other amateurs without having to go up against the pros also. Or an event!!
> If it is suppose to be an amatuer event an it is made up of so many pros then it kinda reminds me of the Little League World Series where you think you are competeing on the same level & then you find out the clean shaven kid that is really 18 has been blowing all your batters away is 18 instead of 13.


Need to keep searching for a better analogy. Most of the top amateur golfers are intensely pro trained, not unlike most dogs in the NARC. Just keeping it real...:razz:


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Jason Flemming #42 AFC Lucky if He Makes It 
Pretty sure Jason did all the training with Lucky


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

Being new to this and not knowing much about it, I would still have to say that an NAFC is an NAFC no matter how it got there.
It appears to take a lot more, to attain that status, than just having some or a lot of professional training.
Doesn't everyone get SOME professional help in one way or another?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> Amateurs already compete in the Am. I am not sure how you would do your 'real amateur' stake. Are you a real amateur if you are retired? Married to a billionaire? A trustafarian? What if you work but only work 40 hours a week? Will there be separate stake for those of us who work 80 and above per week so we don't have to compete with the folks that can train after work?


Exactly! I really don't understand what the OP's question is or what point he is making. If he is just wondering if ever in the history of the Amateur National a completely amateur trained dog has won, Bon answered that affirmatively. If he's trying to show that it is a rare event, I believe that is true, and I have great respect for those amateurs such as Howard, Chris and Bill Petrovich who train smart, hard and regularly to a very high level. I know there are probably quite a few that I haven't mentions, I just know those guys off the top of my head as they are western dogs that I occasionally run against.

The reality of our sport is that in order to succeed, not only do you and your dog need to beat every other well trained super dog, you also need to consistently perform well on the very hard marking test and blinds that judges set up on a regular basis. The time commitment, resources and sacrifices necessary to do this are incredible. Some people have the dog, training knowledge and land to do this all by themselves, some are even able to do it while working a regular job, but most need professional help. For those that really catch the bug-obsession, retirement is where experience, training knowledge, good dogs, ability to travel, time and money all coincide to perhaps allow a 100% amateur success. 

John


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

SjSmith said:


> Being new to this and not knowing much about it, I would still have to say that an NAFC is an NAFC no matter how it got there.
> It appears to take a lot more, to attain that status, than just having some or a lot of professional training.
> *Doesn't everyone get SOME professional help in one way or another?*


No. I know lots of people who did it ALL BY THEMSELVES!! :roll: They just naturally knew it all from the start.

JS


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

JS said:


> No. I know lots of people who did it ALL BY THEMSELVES!! :roll: They just naturally knew it all from the start.
> 
> JS


Indeed. Know some of those myself.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

I certainly support those that use pros. We use a pro for our young dog work. 

All of Arnie & Linda Erwin's dogs are 100% amateur trained including Suncrest Wild Oats, a 2011 NAFC finalist.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I just watched Jerry Patopea's interview on the retriever news blog regarding the 5th series. A difficult test and more difficult for others depending on the time of day they ran and what the condition changes were when they ran. Per Jerry... wind changes, lighting changes (poor visibility for the dogs who ran in the evening, great for the dogs who ran this morning. Sounds like "the normal" for a field trial, except the 5th series sounds like it is a lot tougher than something faced at a weekend trial.

Because of the heat, humidity, and a lot of hills, I am feeling for the older dogs at this trial who would probably run the 5th series better under different conditions. 
EdA mentioned how out of gas his dog was... I think a relatively younger dog as compared to the 8, 9, and 10 year olds who are running uphill marks in the heat and humidity. Beautiful scenery, but a tough-tough test. A lot of really good dogs have been picked up or have handled. 

It will be interesting to find out at the end of the 5th how many are still in it. 
Helen


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

I thought I was on the wrong thread for a second.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

helencalif said:


> I just watched Jerry Patopea's interview on the retriever news blog regarding the 5th series. A difficult test and more difficult for others depending on the time of day they ran and what the condition changes were when they ran. Per Jerry... wind changes, lighting changes (poor visibility for the dogs who ran in the evening, great for the dogs who ran this morning. Sounds like "the normal" for a field trial, except the 5th series sounds like it is a lot tougher than something faced at a weekend trial.
> 
> Because of the heat, humidity, and a lot of hills, I am feeling for the older dogs at this trial who would probably run the 5th series better under different conditions.
> EdA mentioned how out of gas his dog was... I think a relatively younger dog as compared to the 8, 9, and 10 year olds who are running uphill marks in the heat and humidity. Beautiful scenery, but a tough-tough test. A lot of really good dogs have been picked up or have handled.
> ...


Good points... Normally old dogs fare well in nationals because they handle the stress well and don't get too up... But this test sounds like it may be too much for most older dogs, even if they are in good shape. (if they are running in the heat of the day)


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

From its beginning the Amateur stake was run for the most part, by well to do owners taking their pro trained dogs and competing with their piers, It was then, and still is primarily about the handler's ability to handle a well trained dog . Actually even before they competed against just their piers, some prevailed http://caninechronicle.com/current-articles/retriever-field-trials-the-early-days/.... Why do we now want to draw a distinction, singling out an isolated few who do not use a pro trained dog for some special recognition.

"If you cant beat them change the rules" regards.

john


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Justin Aimone dog 46...Amateur trained.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Good points... Normally old dogs fare well in nationals because they handle the stress well and don't get too up... But this test sounds like it may be too much for most older dogs, even if they are in good shape. (if they are running in the heat of the day)


Or dogs that didn't mark well enough due to head-swing or issues with looking deep due to indent influence.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Why do we now want to draw a distinction, singling out an isolated few who do not use a pro trained dog for some special recognition.
> john


John,

I don't know if it is "special" recognition, but I think folks who are amateurs take note and give recognition to those dogs who have not been trained by pros and who have been trained and handled by their amateur owners and have done well. The amateur trained and handled dog deserves this recognition of their success as does their amateur owner-trainer-handler. Why? Because amateur trained and handled dogs who reach the National Am level are few and far between.

I think that is important and useful to recognize those dogs and their amateur owners because it gives every amateur to believe that they, too, can also be successful with their dog -- and be in a National Amateur some day. 

Field trialing is a tough, competitive game. I don't have the percentage, but I will guess that most dogs running in Amateur stakes at weekend trials are dogs who have been pro trained. It's been my observation that the owner takes them off the pro's truck and runs them, and then they go back on the truck. Some are successful in the Amateur, some are not. There are FC's out there who have no AFC title. 

Caveat: a successful amateur owner-handler on the West Coast is Andy Kahn. Andy has very good dogs who have had pro training since they were little. Andy also trains his dogs a lot with his pro trainer. He isn't just an owner who shows up Saturday morning to take his dogs off the truck to run them in the Amateur. Andy also worked hard to learn to become a good handler. Thus, Andy is an amateur-owner-handler who is successful. He works hard at it; he has earned his success which is why he qualified 3 dogs for this year's National Am. 

Helen


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

helencalif said:


> I think that is important and useful to recognize those dogs and their amateur owners because it gives every amateur reasons to believe that they can also be successful with their dog -- whether in hunt tests or trials.


The amateur who trains his or her dog to this level of success should be recognized. 

I just don't think we need to make any change the the eligibility requirements for the Amateur stake to recognize these special amateurs and I doubt that if they thought about it they would want such a thing.

I also tip my hat to the few amateurs who, whether their dogs are pro or am trained, can take the dog and win opens with it. Many amateurs can win Ams but fewer can handle with the big dogs.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

helencalif said:


> Caveat: a successful amateur owner-handler on the West Coast is Andy Kahn. Andy has very good dogs who have had pro training since they were little. Andy also trains his dogs a lot with his pro trainer. He isn't just an owner who shows up Saturday morning to take his dogs off the truck to run them in the Amateur. Andy also worked hard to learn and become a good handler. Thus, Andy is an amateur who is successful. He works hard at it. Helen


And a super nice guy to boot. Another good amateur/person is Mel Milton.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Re my caveat: another successful amateur owner-trainer-handler on the west coast is Michael Moore. The same things I said about Andy Kahn could be said about Michael. His dogs are good. They have received training by a pro, but Michael also trains his dogs. He worked hard to become a good handler. Michael Moore is an amateur who is successful. He works hard at it. I rank his bitch Brook as one of the best females that has ever run on the west coast. I am glad I have been able to watch her in trials since she was little. Now Brook is a Grand Old Lady running her umpteenth National Am. She's #115 and is going to be running the 6th series. Cheer for her. She deserves every accolade. 
Helen


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

It can be done. I had two dogs in the 2005 National Am when I was retired and did all their training. I would get two bird boys and head to my land in Loyal OK, which has a thirty acre pond, great terrain, a really nice summer training spot in Oklahoma where you can run long marks in shallow water. Big league blinds too. I would run a complete field trial consisting of land triple, three peat land blinds, big water blinds, and a big triple water test. I also ran an ABCD drill every time out. We would be done in three hours and home by noon in the summer. My dogs were very competitive and one was an AFC.

Now I work and try to get in training at the house. I have a nice technical pond and some decent land, but it's not the same. The dogs know all the blinds and all the spots that marks ought to be thrown. I have often said that I have best non-trained dogs in our circuit! Time is the most precious commodity for an Amateur trainer with no pro help.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

smillerdvm said:


> Could you give a list of those running this year who are 100% Amateur trained?



FC/AFC Bob and Ed's Excellent Adventure - Chef

That dog has never been handled in training or in a trial by anyone but his owner, Ed Krueger.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Tim West said:


> Time is the most precious commodity for an Amateur trainer .


Exactly.....


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## Tommy Wallace (Jun 13, 2008)

helencalif said:


> John,
> 
> I don't know if it is "special" recognition, but I think folks who are amateurs take note and give recognition to those dogs who have not been trained by pros and who have been trained and handled by their amateur owners and have done well. The amateur trained and handled dog deserves this recognition of their success as does their amateur owner-trainer-handler. Why? Because amateur trained and handled dogs who reach the National Am level are few and far between.
> 
> ...


Very nice Ms Helen
A lot of what everyone has said about this is true. I was wondering if there was an actual amateur trainer that has kinda done it on thier on. That seem to be to me someone that would really deserve the highest praise. To go up against such tough professionally trained dogs & come out the victor. They would really have to be very proud of themselves & that fine dog they have too.
It also would be nice even if there was only one event a year to have a truly amateur event. I really don't know how you could do that. When I think of amateur trained, I think of someone using more books, advice & help of that nature than paid labor & then I can take it from here type training. To the ones that are doing amateur style at that level WOW I really do wish I could do what you are doing. Very nice job guys & girls.

I don't know how you could get people to be honest enough to say thier dog is really amateur trained & it really be, but it would be nice for all amateur trainers to at least step to the line knowing that in this event there are going to be better dogs & better handlers than you, but it is because you a amateur trainer did not do as good a job with your dog as the next amateur. Not because 60 hours a week of professional training was behind your dog.
Just more of a level playing field. 

I know we all have self confidence, but can you imagine being in the holding blind (Mr True Amateur) & at the line is Danny Farmer & behind you is Mike Lardy. Really! Nothing amateur about that.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Buzz said:


> FC/AFC Bob and Ed's Excellent Adventure - Chef
> 
> That dog has never been handled in training or in a trial by anyone but his owner, Ed Krueger.


And he was a Finalist in the 2012 Natl Am


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

kjrice said:


> Or dogs that didn't mark well enough due to head-swing or issues with looking deep due to indent influence.


True, but that is the case with many national level tests...


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## Matt Weberpal (Oct 9, 2009)

An even better question is how many amateurs entered past or present work 40+ hours per week on top of training their own dog. That would be even more rare and I would think darn near impossible, but respectable to say the least.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Matt Weberpal said:


> An even better question is how many amateurs entered past or present work 40+ hours per week on top of training their own dog. That would be even more rare and I would think darn near impossible, but respectable to say the least.


Chris Hatch, a full-time insurance agent with his own insurance business. He does sneak away to do some training on a Wed. or some other week day if he can get away from the office. He is a grandpa so usually Sunday is a day to be spent with kids and grandkids. After work he goes home and often trains by himself until dark-30.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Matt Weberpal said:


> An even better question is how many amateurs entered past or present work 40+ hours per week on top of training their own dog. That would be even more rare and I would think darn near impossible, but respectable to say the least.


I agree it is rare, but I know Chris hatch is still working full time. My old training partner, the guy who got me in the sport trained two dogs thru his thirties and forties to a high level, while working full time as a highway engineer. His second dog FC-AFC Ranger was a repeat brother of Ritz, due to family commitments (Jim has three young boys), Jim retired him at six with 36 or so all age points. I know for a fact that Jim did every bit of training by himself or with the training group he put together.

As to the "true" amateur versus pro argument, I look at it this way:

1) Just due to the fact that it is their full time profession over a long period of time, most Pros are better handlers than most amateurs, that said the very best amateurs can hold their own as a handler against anyone.
2) Tactically in a field trial, pros have an advantage over amateurs in their ability to go to school on a number of dogs as they learn the best way to approach a test, I get two shots, they might get twenty.
3) That advantage can be outweighed by the extremely personal relationship a dedicated amateur has with his dog. Assuming the dog is as talented as the best and the amateur trainer is a handler of the highest level,
that dog-handler team can become super-tight and a formidable team over time.
4) If I'm in a holding blind between Mike Lardy and Danny Farmer, it is of no consequence whatever, I need to concentrate on the test, not other handlers except to maybe learn some nuance by watching them handle 
their dogs. We need to do the best we can and let the chips fall where they may during call backs and placements.

There is a huge spectrum of amateurs handlers in our sport, that runs from the do-it-all-themselves trainers such as Chris Hatch and my buddy Jim, to the few who haven't trained their dog a day in their life, the huge majority are somewhere in between those two extremes. Many are like me, I do a lot of my training, keeping my dogs home for months at a time, over decades I have learned from other amateurs like Jim and from very good coaching Pros such as Eric Fangsrud, so I'm comfortable setting up test and taking my dogs through a program. Then I might find myself too busy at work and or unable to make a seasonal road trip so my dogs may be with a pro for months at a time. I admire Jim and Chris to a great extent, but at the end of the day we are all competing against each other on an equal basis.

John


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Even amateurs, whose dogs have never been handled by a pro are generally still significantly influenced by a pro(s). It would be virtually impossible for an amateur to gain enough knowledge and technique from just deciding to start training his dogs one day to run FTs & be even a little successful. With that said & apart from extreme examples, I see no real separating factor to distinguish some amateurs from another. Sure we can distinguish the extremes, the totally pro-trained dog where the owner just shows up to handle the dog in an amateur stake versus the dog whose owner trains the dog virtually all the time & handles the dog in opens & amateur stakes. And of those in the latter category, many of those amateurs still train "with" pros, using the pros setups, birds and help. In my case, I have done all of the young dog training on all of my dogs except two. And I have done about 1/2 of the year's AA training without pro presence. In the other half of the year, I have trained "with" Dave Smith for about 3 months and the dogs have been trained by Dave Smith with me not there about 3 mos (I like to hunt & take a summer vacation too). I handle the dogs in both opens & Ams except for an avg of 3 trials (of approx 20) that I run each year. Sure Dave Smith would love to keep my dogs & run them himself (& he might even do it better) but I'm not in this game to be a spectator and by handling my dogs most all of the time, I know my dogs better than some pros know the ones they train because I only have 3-4 to keep up with.

So apart from the extremes noted, I think there is little distinction among most successful amateurs only a little gray. And for those amateurs who can train every day and have access to good grounds whenever, they have money in addition to time.........time & money being the foundation ingredients for success with some good eyesight and reaction skills thrown in to make them very competitive - and of course the main ingredient, a great dog.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

huntinman said:


> True, but that is the case with many national level tests...


I guess what I was trying to say is it is hard to say it is too much test because a younger dog comes back tired but you never heard about the 100+lb, 11yo, that didn't have issue.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

A couple thoughts. Using the definition of amatuer vs pro to me has different values. I see folks that are so called amateurs with a truck load of dogs and have hundreds or thousands of acres of land to train on and train in large groups. Then I see a working stiff that trains by themselves during the week and weekends when they have time with a group. I know a bunch that fit in both category and no offense to Danny or Mike but could give a rat rump if they ran between them. If you look at the end of the day the am by percentage may be more successful entries vs wins/points.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Not sure about NAFC but in 2006 NFC-AFC Dr. Copper Phd. MH won the National with owner/trainer/handler Wayne Dodson. She was a hunt test dog, hunting companion, and amazing animal being amateur trained.


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

*NARCCS-Amateur owned and trained.*

Post #43 really sums it up. People who have accomplished this goal- all while employed and raising a family TRUE amateurs are few- those whom I remember and by this I do not mean someone like myself who has relied heavily on Rex Carr, Andy Attar, Jim VanEngen, and Dave Rorem. Those that I can recall are Bob Willow and Ray Goodrich, a crane operator(he can move a lot of dirt fast) and an attorney who piloted his own plane and showed up too often in my geographical area, damn his dogs were good and Ray is a declining breed in today's society-HE IS A GENTLEMAN. What you have never heard of Ray? Well those determining the final ballot people apparently have not either. Ray Goodrich is 91 years old, lives in Santa Cruz, California. Ray today trains everyday and still competes in Licensed trials. So much for the present day.Ray has DoubleHeaders with two different dogs--Rascal and Brig.Ray judged a National Amateur Stake, Ray has won a National Amateur stake, Ray has gone up the ladder of National officer status and served as a National officer. Ray Incidentally owned the high point OPEN dog in the same year that the dog died (April from a training accident) YES Rascal had enough placements by April of the year in which he died to achieve the title "High Point Open Dog". Every 4 years the National Retriever Club has been granted permission to have full use of his property in Oakdale, Ca. where they have held their event. Without that venue there would be problems. Unfortunately through the years the POOH BAHS who ran the selection of candidates overlooked Ray for the RHOF.Primarily their interests lay with who had the most money to donate to The Bird Dog Foundation, those often were never active trainers only owners. I am not going to try to send out requests to name Ray as a candidate for the RHOF- often this leads to people being nominated who are deserving, yet whose credentials can't hold a candle to the record of Raymond Goodrich as a GENTLEMAN, a National WINNER and JUDGE, and a DoubleHeader winner-2 different dogs and four plus years as a National Officer, and every four years the host of the NRCCS. So who will this year's selection committee decide to include? I hope that whomever it is that they have added to ALL phases of our sport and then compiled a record. I for one will be casting my choice for nomination to Ray Goodrich before he dies-there are other worthy candidates, so let the games begin.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Thank you, Lanse, for your words on Ray Goodrich. Everything you have said about Mr. Goodrich is spot on. I have known him only as a handler for the past 12 years. Never a problem. Always there and ready to run before it is time to run his dog. Always gracious. As you said, a true GENTLEMAN. He is MR. GOODRICH and always will be to me and many others. He is due every respect. He has earned it. 

Helen


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Erin O'Brien said:


> There's been quite a few. I believe ken Neil trains his own, Dennis Bath, Newt Cropper. Sorry if my list isn't super accurate, just going by what I see and I could be wrong. Many more I'm sure though. Just because they run the open, doesn't mean they're being run by a pro. Lots of ams run in the open and nat'l open.


kenny has someone start his dogs as puppies, and until this year has day trained with a pro. He spent many years with Alan pleasant, then Andy attar, and then Steve yoszamp. He is now training on his own. It is hard to day train with someone when you have as many dogs as Kenny.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I first met Mr Goodrich in 1974 coincidentally at the NARC in Sacramento when he and Rascal won..we had a Rascal sired dog named Rex along with Judge...Clint went out after the 7th series, Lanse went out after the 9th, as did Judy/Raider, Ken Cory/****, Tom Quinn/Anny, and Mr Crow/Pearl..Dana B/Paint were Finalists along with Gene Corona,Sal Gelardi

Mr Goodrich has always been a classy guy and a non pretentious gentleman in a sport dominated by blowhards and egomaniacs, on top of being a darn good dog trainer and handler of a dog that was arguably the gold standard of marking dogs during his lifetime

Mr Goodrich's inclusion to the RHOF is LONG overdue, I too will vote for him this year


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Hope Mr Goodrich is nominated and elected soon.
is it true he'd do lining drills down rows of brussel sprout crops?


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

elingler said:


> I don't have a dog running the NAFC but my dodoes have his HRCH UH and is one pass from his MH title has derby JAMS and we even walked to the line in a AM in a ft and wasn't embarrassed at all and he is 100% amateur trained and he is only my second dog I have ever owned. Yeah he might never be a FC or AFC but to me it's about the journey.


cool story bro....


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


**** x2****


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

Howard N said:


> **** x2****


.........


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Beverly Burns said:


> Not sure about NAFC but in 2006 NFC-AFC Dr. Copper Phd. MH won the National with owner/trainer/handler Wayne Dodson. She was a hunt test dog, hunting companion, and amazing animal being amateur trained.


Even Wayne trained regularly with pros during the summer in WI. Not taking anything away from Copper, she was a very nice dog but just the point that even the most "amateur" of trainers is significantly influenced by a pro(s) in most all cases.


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## jollydog (Jul 10, 2006)

If you want to nominate an individual to the Retriever Hall of Fame you can do so by googling Retriever News Hall of Fame ballot - you can fill it out and send in. I'm afraid many are under the impression Ray Goodrich has been voted in and this is NOT the case. Please make a difference and fill out a ballot. I like many was unaware who he was. When I asked Judy Aycock about him she gave me permission to quote her and said "it is a travesty he is not in the hall of fame."
Read Lanse's post for all the reasons why and I am sure there are even more. Find the ballot and nominate!!!


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## SuperFamily (Jun 23, 2013)

Lauren Hays and Slider would qualify as a "true amateur" and has won numerous Opens against the pros as well as qualifying for (and making it to the last day of) the last two National Ams and the last National Open. They're also qualified for this year's National Open.


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

John Robinson said:


> Exactly! I really don't understand what the OP's question is or what point he is making. If he is just wondering if ever in the history of the Amateur National a completely amateur trained dog has won, Bon answered that affirmatively. If he's trying to show that it is a rare event, I believe that is true, and I have great respect for those amateurs such as Howard, Chris and Bill Petrovich who train smart, hard and regularly to a very high level. I know there are probably quite a few that I haven't mentions, I just know those guys off the top of my head as they are western dogs that I occasionally run against.
> 
> The reality of our sport is that in order to succeed, not only do you and your dog need to beat every other well trained super dog, you also need to consistently perform well on the very hard marking test and blinds that judges set up on a regular basis. The time commitment, resources and sacrifices necessary to do this are incredible. Some people have the dog, training knowledge and land to do this all by themselves, some are even able to do it while working a regular job, *but most need professional help.* For those that really catch the bug-obsession, retirement is where experience, training knowledge, good dogs, ability to travel, time and money all coincide to perhaps allow a 100% amateur success.
> 
> John


I think all of us who play these dog games need "professional" help!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Brad Turner said:


> I think all of us who play these dog games need "professional" help!


So true, so true.


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

jollydog said:


> If you want to nominate an individual to the Retriever Hall of Fame you can do so by googling Retriever News Hall of Fame ballot - you can fill it out and send in. I'm afraid many are under the impression Ray Goodrich has been voted in and this is NOT the case. Please make a difference and fill out a ballot. I like many was unaware who he was. When I asked Judy Aycock about him she gave me permission to quote her and said "it is a travesty he is not in the hall of fame."
> Read Lanse's post for all the reasons why and I am sure there are even more. Find the ballot and nominate!!!


Mr. Goodrich is indeed wonderful person and has contributed so much to the game. I first met him at a trial just a few years ago and was taken back because he thanked me for my gunning that day and we sat and talked, ( I listened ) as he told about his beginning in the sport. It would be a travesty indeed if he doesn't receive his placement in the RHOF in his lifetime. Ray I believe is more than 91 yrs old.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

SuperFamily said:


> Lauren Hays and Slider would qualify as a "true amateur" and has won numerous Opens against the pros as well as qualifying for (and making it to the last day of) the last two National Ams and the last National Open. They're also qualified for this year's National Open.


Slider is an awesome talented dog and Lauren Hays does a great job communicating with him. Not taking anything away from that team at all but make no mistake, she gets extensive help and tutoring from one of the best pros around. I'm sure she would acknowledge that. Nothing wrong with that. It's the smart thing to do.

This is what we're talking about. When you have the opportunity to run the pro's setups ... in fact, be there to watch and ask questions when they are setting it up... that is professional help.

When you have the opportunity to sit in the field throwing birds for 20 dogs and watch what they do ... that is professional help.

When you get to know the dog's individual personalities and see how the pro handles each different dog accordingly as they run, that is professional help.

When you are shagging dogs off the truck and watch the pro from the line ... the individual touch for each particular dog ... that is professional help.

When it's your turn to run and the pro standing behind you says,"why in the hell did you do THAT?" ... that is professional help.

That is the help that most serious amateurs seek out. And even though, in many cases, no pro has ever dropped his hand over the dog at the mat, it is certainly not accurate to say their dog is "completely amateur trained without the help of a pro".

There are some, but very few.

JS


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

As I posted previously this completely amateur trained dog amuses me. Usually the question arrises from those who are not familiar with the "field trial culture" and as JS pointed out what's the difference between having a pro put a hand in front of a dog or on a daily basis throwing for the pro, then running your own dog, done quite often. I train with a group of all amateurs and we struggle weekly to compete in the all age game. We have had a smattering of FC and/or AFCs over the years in our various groups. Most have not got the 5 win plus two points to qualify on a yearly basis. We have in the group those just trying to get the necessary points to get a title. I have not used a pro since the mid 1990s and it probably shows although we have had "completely amateur" trained FC and/or AFCs among us in the past ten years.
Among the group are working stiffs and retired folks. We have had our share of Derby List dogs and young QAA along with plenty of Master Hunters, non professionally trained. To just qualify for the big dance is a major accomplishment in itself. To be a finalist with the talent out there is a greater then major accomplishment. I think anyone who puts a AFC on a dog or qualifies it for the National Amat. , whoever trains the dog should be commended. This field trial game of today ain't your daddy's game, use the resources you have, ask yourself are you having fun? The rest just don't matter!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> As I posted previously this completely amateur trained dog amuses me. Usually the question arrises from those who are not familiar with the "field trial culture" and as JS pointed out what's the difference between having a pro put a hand in front of a dog or on a daily basis throwing for the pro, then running your own dog, done quite often. I train with a group of all amateurs and we struggle weekly to compete in the all age game. We have had a smattering of FC and/or AFCs over the years in our various groups. Most have not got the 5 win plus two points to qualify on a yearly basis. We have in the group those just trying to get the necessary points to get a title. I have not used a pro since the mid 1990s and it probably shows although we have had "completely amateur" trained FC and/or AFCs among us in the past ten years.
> Among the group are working stiffs and retired folks. We have had our share of Derby List dogs and young QAA along with plenty of Master Hunters, non professionally trained. To just qualify for the big dance is a major accomplishment in itself. To be a finalist with the talent out there is a greater then major accomplishment. I think anyone who puts a AFC on a dog or qualifies it for the National Amat. , whoever trains the dog should be commended. This field trial game of today ain't your daddy's game, use the resources you have, ask yourself are you having fun? The rest just don't matter!


Amen, well said.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Criquetpas said:


> This field trial game of today ain't your daddy's game, use the resources you have, ask yourself are you having fun? The rest just don't matter!


Well said. IMO there are very few people who have completely amateur-trained dogs now and never train with or use a pro. Many of the people at this year's Amateur National were in a pro group for prenational training. Most of the people/handlers have also attended a pro seminar, and some have attended seminars annually to become better handlers. The tests are so much more difficult and the concepts (i.e., put down marks and pull off to run a blind) are difficult to train. It takes expertise to "train" these dogs to do the tricky stuff without using too much pressure. And, we expect the dogs to run a couple of miles on the super long marks. Who has the kind of grounds for this type of training--mostly the pros. Can anyone name someone besides Lee Jolley who doesn't use a pro--and I mean completely amateur-trained from puppy to AA stake dog AND HAS REGULAR SUCCESS WITH A COLORED RIBBON? Examples of using a pro: the dog that won the Amateur in one of the last trials before the break trained with a pro for 2-3 weeks prior, and so did the Amateur/dog that won the Open. I am not taking anything away from either of these excellent amateur trainers/handlers. They did a great job at those trials.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I judged the limited open on the National Grounds 2013 about a month before the National Amat. How on Earth can anyone duplicate those grounds! Even Used "Laura's stick pond " as it iscalled for our last series water marks. Several very prominent pros asked me if I had ever trained on grounds such as this property. I said no and they said neither had they! Forget about if a Pro trains your dog, what about using National caliber ground to train on? In your Daddy's field trial National era Bong Recreational grounds were the Benchmark for national caliber grounds. I was there when River Oaks Rascal won the National Amateur in I think 1977 and two more were held before then. Now Bong is a nice place and I train there about once a week. It is excellent Hunt Test grounds but, it is not National Field Trial caliber by any stretch of the imagination!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Criquetpas said:


> I judged the limited open on the National Grounds 2013 about a month before the National Amat. How on Earth can anyone duplicate those grounds! Even Used "Laura's stick pond " as it iscalled for our last series water marks. Several very prominent pros asked me if I had ever trained on grounds such as this property. I said no and they said neither had they! Forget about if a Pro trains your dog, what about using National caliber ground to train on? In your Daddy's field trial National era Bong Recreational grounds were the Benchmark for national caliber grounds. I was there when River Oaks Rascal won the National Amateur in I think 1977 and two more were held before then. Now Bong is a nice place and I train there about once a week. It is excellent Hunt Test grounds but, it is not National Field Trial caliber by any stretch of the imagination!


Earl : did you ever see the field trial grounds in Jackson Hole Wyoming held there in 1975, those were pretty special too


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> Earl : did you ever see the field trial grounds in Jackson Hole Wyoming held there in 1975, those were pretty special too


No I haven't other then looking at old RFTN. Outside of St Louis have never ventured farther west then there, I probably have missed a lot! Everything else West has been in a plane.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

At the National Amateur are we not trying to find the best of the best... That is to say the best retriever in the country qualified and entered that week, the only stipulation being that it be handled by someone who's Amateur status falls under that years FT committee's interpretation of the rules as to them being one.

All the rest of the blather, like who trained the dog, is a non sequitur !!!

john


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Well said. IMO there are very few people who have completely amateur-trained dogs now and never train with or use a pro. Many of the people at this year's Amateur National were in a pro group for prenational training. Most of the people/handlers have also attended a pro seminar, and some have attended seminars annually to become better handlers. The tests are so much more difficult and the concepts (i.e., put down marks and pull off to run a blind) are difficult to train. It takes expertise to "train" these dogs to do the tricky stuff without using too much pressure. And, we expect the dogs to run a couple of miles on the super long marks. Who has the kind of grounds for this type of training--mostly the pros. *Can anyone name someone besides Lee Jolley who doesn't use a pro--and I mean completely amateur-trained from puppy to AA stake dog AND HAS REGULAR SUCCESS WITH A COLORED RIBBON*? Examples of using a pro: the dog that won the Amateur in one of the last trials before the break trained with a pro for 2-3 weeks prior, and so did the Amateur/dog that won the Open. I am not taking anything away from either of these excellent amateur trainers/handlers. They did a great job at those trials.


Ann, I believe Jim Pickering fits that description with his current FC/AFC Willie and past AFC's.


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