# 3 handed casting, look ma no rope!



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Tired of the Show vs Filed stuff so thought I do a short video of 3 handed casting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5kRuRSvKg&list=UUNsjoiWjxhDt2tsedfrqyAg&feature=share


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Steve,

Looks like a nice dog. I honestly think your video shows exactly why it's better to do 3-handed casting on a rope though. That nice enthusiastic young dog was all over the place, and could have easily been stabilized with a rope, so your efforts could have been concentrated more on casting. Also, there were several times when she looked away (I know, predictable for a youngster), but you needed to spend extra time getting her to look at you that could have more efficiently been done with a tug of a rope. As you progress in 3HC, and into Mini-T there are more opportunities for a rope to simplify the task. 

Just my observations.

Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

All over the place? Cmon you've got to be kidding. A COUPLE times she looked away and a toot on the whistle got her focused. What the H(*&l do you expect her to do when you throw a bumper. I'd bet if I had a rope on her and gave it a tug she would have started towards me.This was THE very first attempt at this with her unlike many other videos that show a dog that has done it a few times before filming. I thought she did extremely well. Sorry but I prefer verbal communication and body language over a rope. I'd also rather use the whistle (like you will later anyway) to get her attention than the rope. If the rope works for you fine but to me it's just in the way.


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## JL82 (May 13, 2013)

Nice video she her action seems very positive


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Steve,

She's taking casts very nicely IMO, plus turning left and right on the back cast according to your arm signal; I'd be very pleased with that for a first time effort. Bright little thing she is.

One thing strikes me is her relatively poor basic obedience skills; sit was broken / ignored several times and the heel work was sloppy. Do you correct this as you go along? Before I get to casting drills I have a much tighter performance than Peggy displays. Otherwise I feel the retrieve is rewarding both the good behaviour (taking the cast very well) and the other less than stellar stuff, which will then become harder to straighten out. 

Not a criticism just an observation from someone who doesn't collar train or FF (or use a rope!) 

Eug


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Sorry Steve. I'm just offering something I thought might help. I assume you didn't want conversation or critique, but rather just affirmation that all went well?

Evan


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

OK, Steve....now you've gone and done it. Where's your "tools".....no rope, treats or heeling stick and didn't see a transmitter in your hand. I mean....it's like you were training and expected the dog to be responsive. The dog gave no indication that she must do what you asked.....but she did. How does that happen? 

And by the way it's pretty obvious you're maybe a bit too relaxed and the dog is having way too much fun. 

In a more serious vein, if you factor in the comments at the beginning of the video "the dog has been here for a just few days"....."she did some basics with me *last summer*", most trainers spend a little time getting the dog comfortable even when they know them. This video (at least for me) seems to suggest a "welcome back...let's go play a bit"..."and see where we are at"......and give someone at RTF a little look "outside the box". The thread title suggested it was going to be more about fun. 










I've done a few videos where a session was more of a spontaneous attempt at finding out just what would happen. It's often fun and informative. Try it some time......you might be pleasantly surprised......others.....not so much.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

The first thing I thought was wow look at that country! Long marks are us if I had land like that. Nice video also.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Steve Shaver said:


> All over the place? Cmon you've got to be kidding. A COUPLE times she looked away and a toot on the whistle got her focused. What the H(*&l do you expect her to do when you throw a bumper. I'd bet if I had a rope on her and gave it a tug she would have started towards me.This was THE very first attempt at this with her unlike many other videos that show a dog that has done it a few times before filming. I thought she did extremely well. Sorry but I prefer verbal communication and body language over a rope. I'd also rather use the whistle (like you will later anyway) to get her attention than the rope. If the rope works for you fine but to me it's just in the way.


I watched the clip with No sound. Thought it would be better since the body language over a rope was a better way.
Liked the bit at the end,where the dog had a piss break


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

KwickLabs said:


> OK, Steve....now you've gone and done it. Where's your "tools".....no rope, treats or heeling stick and didn't see a transmitter in your hand. I mean....it's like you were training and expected the dog to be responsive. The dog gave no indication that she must do what you asked.....but she did. How does that happen?
> 
> And by the way it's pretty obvious you're maybe a bit too relaxed and the dog is having way too much fun.
> 
> ...


Lay off the dope and look at the left hand. Clearly a transmitter.


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

Evan said:


> Steve,
> 
> Looks like a nice dog. I honestly think your video shows exactly why it's better to do 3-handed casting on a rope though. That nice enthusiastic young dog was all over the place, and could have easily been stabilized with a rope, so your efforts could have been concentrated more on casting. Also, there were several times when she looked away (I know, predictable for a youngster), but you needed to spend extra time getting her to look at you that could have more efficiently been done with a tug of a rope. As you progress in 3HC, and into Mini-T there are more opportunities for a rope to simplify the task.
> 
> ...


Steve, you're braver than me right now (& have a much higher post count); you open yourself up to critique when you post video's. I'd have to agree with Evan on this one; but each they're own. I have an 8 month doing 3 handed casting with multiple bumpers & that long lead just gives me an extra handle. Looks like you had great distractions in the background.

I browsed a few of your videos, & I'd like to see more of that Homer - dang, that was a big bird he brought back.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Looks to me like Peggy was understanding....Just saying.
The dogs in the background though got mine to come over to my laptop and they were turning their heads and wanted to know what was going on.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"......look at the left hand. Clearly a transmitter."_ 

Ha! Should have gone back and looked at it again.









Must have been my bifocals.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Dog just back in town. Dog day one of something new. No problems. Wouldn't have been concerned with sloppy OB but would make book. Day two would be a whole different game including I would be having two bumpers out, one on each side for a dog of her development. As shown I wouldn't have expected much different so don't know why you had dogs that would take a week to do this. After all she knows front sit sorta, sit remote, go on cast, turn right way, fetch and return. Truth is, she has done all elements of this before.

Contrary to some, I can't for the life of me see why you would want to put a rope on this dog. I think in the hands of most a rope just confounds the whole deal because most are klutzes with ropes and you take the onus off the dog. I want the dog to *focus on me without the crutch of a rope. *This starts as a puppy and is easy to do. I want the dog responsive to my body English and commands and not controlled by a rope. If he goes wrong way, I want to be able to stop and re-do AND without collar pressure or rope. Ropes are contrary to many of these principles. I use ropes every day with my horses so I am real comfortable and handy with them. I have not used a rope with a dog in many, many years (except a heeling rope). I think there are only a few very rare uses for them in the field.

But Steve, Geesh you are casual and nonchalant!!! You are not very exciting for this dog to focus on. I suspect that if you got more focused and intense, the dog would also. A lot of the her casual behavior would suddenly disappear. If you were more precise and focused on her all the time, she would be more precise and intense and focused on you. 

Perhaps it was just the video "appearance" and Day one but in 3-4 days I would expect this dog to be sharp as a tack and doing any cast with piles at each spot if you do your part. And. . without pressure although this is a great time and place to introduce Indirect Pressure for lack of effort.

Cheers


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## GanderLandR11 (Dec 13, 2012)

For a dog that has been away for several months w/o knowing on my end what it has been doing for the last several months it appears she performed the commands as asked. Through the next couple days I'm sure she will tighten up any sloppiness.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Evan said:


> Sorry Steve. I'm just offering something I thought might help. I assume you didn't want conversation or critique, but rather just affirmation that all went well?
> 
> Evan




Sorry to Evan if I do something different than you. You may be more comfortable with a rope but I am not and I really don't see the need for it. I have no problem with someone using a rope but it's not for me. Yes she was a little loose but that was to be expected. Discuss and critique all you want but seems to me you were quick to criticize without really even knowing what was going on. I hardly think this dog was "all over the place"
Seems as though Kwick labs knew exactly what was going on here. I have not seen this dog in 4 months. She has been hunting ducks all winter. Her owner brought her to me on Saturday the video was done on Tuesday. When her owner got her out of the car on a leash she was dragging him all over the place. My first thought was this is not the dog I sent home 4 months ago.
This video was just an exploratory session to see what her aptitude was for what we are about to start and I thought it went very well. She was very responsive and just did what I was asking. Right now I want her having fun. I certainly don't want to be killing her good attitude by being so demanding right off the bat. As time goes on I will tighten things up.
When I said I have had dogs take a week to get this far I may have exaggerated a bit but not by much. I have worked with a few that took forever it seems. I think I could have taken Peggy much further in this session but as I said it was just an exploratory lesson and I was very pleased. She also seems to be ambidextrous. Most dogs like one way or the other to turn and I have never had one go so easily to either side. 
A dog like this makes me excited to get out and work with her. She makes it fun for me so I will return that favor. I am not just teaching 3 handed casting here I am setting the stage for what our working relationship will be. Again I am just starting out with this dog.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I thought Steve did a great job with her, getting her back into gear casually without killing her. As a wse person once said, "you can put pressure on a dog, but you can't take it back." And like Dennis and a few others, I am not a big rope advocate. Not sure how it would have helped here. Ropes don't keep their heads from turning, or their butts from leaving the ground. 

I am always a proponent of happy workers, rather than a bacon factory. And I like to see videos where e-collars are appropriately placed, not on a dog's behind.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I do appreciate the constructive input. Col and Dennis you have given me food for thought and made me aware of areas where I may be slacking a little.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Well I liked it. You can see this is a nice dog that to some degree knows what this is about. A rope really isn't going to help a dog like this much in my opinion. Dennis made some good points about trainer attitude but I had the feeling that this was just a lets get reaquainted session and lets see where your head is. Plenty of time to tighten it up later.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Nice video. I expect in a few days she will be performing differently and better. Thanks for sharing!!


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## mtncntrykid (May 31, 2011)

I enjoyed ALL the video's! Even the comment about crazy women. How are those little boys coming along?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Denis posted


> But Steve, Geesh you are casual and nonchalant!!! You are not very exciting for this dog to focus on. I suspect that if you got more focused and intense, the dog would also. A lot of the her casual behavior would suddenly disappear. If you were more precise and focused on her all the time, she would be more precise and intense and focused on you.


Steve, I've posted this before, and though it shows an entirely different training style to yours (no collar or FF ) you might care to look at Richards body language and the connection it helps establish with Raven. When I ran the training group we were insistent on getting the handlers body language right; we actually did group sessions of "Dog Handlers Tai Chi" which was always good for a laugh but worked really well. 

Jus' a thot.






Eug


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Denis posted Steve, I've posted this before, and though it shows an entirely different training style to yours (no collar or FF ) you might care to look at Richards body language and the connection it helps establish with Raven. When I ran the training group we were insistent on getting the handlers body language right; we actually did group sessions of "Dog Handlers Tai Chi" which was always good for a laugh but worked really well.
> 
> Jus' a thot.
> 
> ...


Eug, how does he decide which knee is forward when he stops? I like the specificity and consistency of the foot work depending on what the dog is asked to do. I just didn't completely understand that one piece.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Thanks for posting the video Col. There is no doubt I need to up my standard on OB and it's something I am working on. It is so easy to get loose in one thing while concentrating on another


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I thought the video Breck posted in the Westminster thread of Petra and Tyler at the Crufts Obedience trial showed very deliberate and consistent body language. I thought that stood out as much as the performance of the dog. It's not field training, but applicable to the discussion of body language in dog training.


Video posted for convenience 
http://www.offa.org/healthch/healthch_lab.html


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Much ado about not much, it seems to me. The dog in Steve's video is clearly a nice dog that has had good training. I offered a brief critique and a suggestion. That's it. Using a rope is something I learned from a very successful trainer, and it's served me immensely well and saves a lot of grief in this little drill. Use a rope. Don't use a rope. It's a suggestion. No one needs to take good advice. It will still be good advice. This little 3 minute video clip is intended simply to show the ease of rope use in 3-handed casting. It has no commercial content.

http://youtu.be/IpygYQqD2hU

Evan


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Nice little video Evan, to explain the casting with rope. It's not something we ever do over here. Just seems a bit unnecessary, and a lot of hassle getting tangled up in reams of rope! LOL But it was a good clear explanation.

One thing though, at 2'52" the dog goes to go backwards and then appears to fall on its shoulder. What happened there? Looked really weird. Did it stumble/collapse, or did it get caught on the rope? I couldn't quite work that out, as it did actually look like it was going in the right direction? and after the fall, carried on in the same direction.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Nice little video Evan, to explain the casting with rope. It's not something we ever do over here. Just seems a bit unnecessary, and a lot of hassle getting tangled up in reams of rope!


I don't mean to be argumentative, but where did you see that? Trainers only tend to have that issue when they get in a hurry.


kennel maiden said:


> One thing though, at 2'52" the dog goes to go backwards and then appears to fall on its shoulder. What happened there? Looked really weird. Did it stumble/collapse, or did it get caught on the rope?


He rotated the wrong way, and was stopped with the rope. Calm, low key correction, followed by correct cast. I like how clean the rope makes this operation. I also realize not everyone will see it that way, and that's cool. Thanks for your reply.

Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Evan;119359is my rope said:


> Much ado about not much, it seems to me. The dog in Steve's video is clearly a nice dog that has had good training. I offered a brief critique and a suggestion. That'sis a good example of why it is not necessarit. Using a rope is something I learned from a very successful trainer, and it's served me immensely well and saves a lot of grief in this little drill. Use a rope. Don't use a rope. It's a suggestion. No one needs to take good advice. It will still be good advice. This little 3 minute video clip is intended simply to show the ease of rope use in 3-handed casting. It has no commercial content.
> 
> http://youtu.be/IpygYQqD2hU
> 
> Evan





Good video Evan but I see 99% of the time you are using body language and not the rope. As you mentioned with my video being a good example of why a rope should be used I could say yours is a good example of why the rope is not necessary. Our approach is exactly the same but you are constantly reeling in that rope and I am not. 
To me the word NO is my rope in case of an improper cast and I can get it out quicker than I can jerk on the rope. Simply for me the rope is just in the way and gives me more too think about rather than concentrating on the task at hand. The rope just complicates matters but that is just me and my opinion.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree with what you're seeing Steve, but not with your conclusion. I don't *JUST* use a rope for those corrections or for teaching. I use all my tools. If you prefer yelling "No" at your dog that's okay. I'm just showing an alternative.

Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Evan said:


> I agree with what you're seeing Steve, but not with your conclusion. I don't *JUST* use a rope for those corrections or for teaching. I use all my tools. If you prefer yelling "No" at your dog that's okay. I'm just showing an alternative.
> 
> Evan





*ME TOO.

*
But I must comment on what Kennel maiden said. I watched the video over and over and it sure looks like the dog turned the right way and the rope was under the dog and pulled him down. This is the main reason I don't like the rope. Never mind me having to fumble with it, it is hard to keep the rope in the proper position on the dog when the dog is turning and moving. It gets underneath them and between the legs and causes the dog to trip like in your video rather than keeping it free of the legs and at the neck. I can definitely see the positive side of the rope if it is in the proper position on the dog when it turns the wrong way but if it isn't to me it does more harm than good.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Yes, I think my point was that there seemed to be more focus in having to reel the rope in and out in the training session, and less on the actual dog and communication between dog and handler. If you didn't have a rope, you would be able to give more focus to the dog and training, body language etc. The rope just seems to get in the way.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> Petra and Tyler at the Crufts Obedience trial
> .
> .
> The dog started out as a FT puppy when she was part of John Cavanaugh's training group. (A more intense training group I've never heard of).
> You can bet the "obedience standards" she learned from John carried over when she left FT's and moved to obedience


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Yes, I think my point was that there seemed to be more focus in having to reel the rope in and out in the training session, and less on the actual dog and communication between dog and handler. If you didn't have a rope, you would be able to give more focus to the dog and training, body language etc. The rope just seems to get in the way.


.
For teaching 3 handed casting the rope is mainly used to reinforce sit and to refocus dogs attention on you. During the who process rope is not used to reel the dog in. It is used to stop dog if he casts the wrong direction. While Dennis is more experienced than most and can easily forego the rope, many inexperienced handlers will benefit from using a rope at least for the initial day or two as handler and dog get the idea. 
In case of this video all three piles should have at least one bumper down and visible in pile and then bumpers are hand tossed to left, right, back left, back right piles.
Dog works from one spot and handler may walk up to spot to receive dog, take dummy and return to his spot to continue.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> *ME TOO.
> 
> *
> But I must comment on what Kennel maiden said. I watched the video over and over and it sure looks like the dog turned the right way and the rope was under the dog and pulled him down. This is the main reason I don't like the rope.


Steve, you're seeing things that aren't there apparently. I gave a left-hand straight Back and he rotated right and was stopped instantly. Note how slowly and purposefully I projected the cast. I knew he was apt to rotate wrong because he had just been given a right Over preceding this back cast. He did not trip. He _could_ not trip because the rope was in front of him, and not under his feet in any way. All other rope was to the side and behind me. I don't know how it can be seen in any other way. It was a perfectly timed correction for a clear infraction.


Steve Shaver said:


> Never mind me having to fumble with it, it is hard to keep the rope in the proper position on the dog when the dog is turning and moving. It gets underneath them and between the legs and causes the dog to trip like in your video rather than keeping it free of the legs and at the neck.


I assume you're talking about your struggles with ropes because there were none in the video. I always make sure the rope is clear of the dog before casting.


Steve Shaver said:


> I can definitely see the positive side of the rope if it is in the proper position on the dog when it turns the wrong way but if it isn't to me it does more harm than good.


How could that sequence result in harm to the dog?  The only place where the rope was in contact with the dog was where it was connected to his collar. There was no rope under the dog's feet. I would not have cast the dog otherwise. Seems to be a lot of grasping at straws in order to make a point, and I don't just mean you. Things are supposedly happening in that clip that just aren't happening. Folks, if you're happy not using a great tool like a training rope for this, by all means don't.

Evan


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Evan your last post didn't really add anything. 
???


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Only clarity. Steve said he thought the dog rotated correctly and tripped on the rope. He did nether one.

Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Evan said:


> Only clarity. Steve said he thought the dog rotated correctly and tripped on the rope. He did nether one.
> 
> Evan




Ok Evan I stand corrected, the dog did turn the wrong way. I did appear though that he turned the right way. I had to go back and go through it 3 times and pause it to see that he did indeed turn the right way, but STILL the dog went down on his face.
I really don't care to argue about it anymore. I really don't care if you or anybody else use the rope or not. Just pointing out what my experience is with it and why I prefer not to use it.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

come on Evan.......


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

After training a lot of dogs both ways I have to say that I am a fan of the rope. I have had overall better results with a wide array of temperaments when using the rope vs. not. Is there a learning curve? Yes, but there is with any method that we use in training. To put it in perspective it is an idiot proof device. It keeps the dog AND the handler from being an idiot. The original vid is a prime example. That dog came out of a hunting season and was way loose and that was an easy one to call. If I were going to use the method of the OP I personally would have revisited OB with the dog for a session or two prior to attempting to move on to something as important as mini T. What would have happened if the dog had taken a wrong cast and had not stopped on the whistle or "NO!"? Dog was wearing a collar right? The handler is fixin to do something idiotic. The rope prevents any of this from happening before it even starts. Furthermore, "NO" can be more crushing to some dogs at that stage than any other form of correction. IMO leave the NO and the collar where they should be at that stage and make the dog successful. I promise, in the end, you'll make yourself look good too.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Give me a break, and maybe a little bit of credit for knowing better than to do something stupid. I think you need to go back and read more about what was actually happening with this dog.
I may not be Mike Lardy or Danny Farmer but this aint my first rodeo either


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Breck said:


> come on Evan.......


Hahahahaha. Which guy has a program to follow, that's the one I'm using. Rope or no rope, we all have our preference.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Steve Shaver said:


> Give me a break, and maybe a little bit of credit for knowing better than to do something stupid. I think you need to go back and read more about what was actually happening with this dog.
> I may not be Mike Lardy or Danny Farmer but this aint my first rodeo either


Don't take offense my friend. Other people may not know better that are reading this and trying to decide which method to go with. I was just speaking as to human nature. Some would have done this. Many may have. The question I pose to you is if you got in a bind with this dog what would you have done?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Ok Evan I stand corrected, the dog did turn the wrong way. I did appear though that he turned the right way. I had to go back and go through it 3 times and pause it to see that he did indeed turn the right way, but STILL the dog went down on his face.
> I really don't care to argue about it anymore. I really don't care if you or anybody else use the rope or not. Just pointing out what my experience is with it and why I prefer not to use it.


Thanks Steve. I don't think we ever needed to argue about it. I just want to be clear.

Evan


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## duckstruck (Nov 20, 2013)

Tony Marshall said:


> Don't take offense my friend. Other people may not know better that are reading this and trying to decide which method to go with. I was just speaking as to human nature. Some would have done this. Many may have.


Hey I resemble that remark!

First I would like thank Steve, the OP for posting this video.
2nd I would like to thank all for contributing their comments.

Steve, you may have taken some heat and feel uncomfortable because of it. However, you should take comfort in knowing that some of us have learned something from the thread you started. I assume that is why Chris has started this Forum on the information super highway. 

Thank You.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I hurt myself pretty bad trying to use a rope with Indy when I first started in this game. All I remember is tossing the bumper over his shoulder, the rope wrapping around my ankle as the dog took off, and burns on my hand and ankle. Yes, it was totally my errors, but if other beginners are looking at this thread and think its easy, I'm warning you to get some one to help you learn the first time you try it, especially if you have a wired dog. I used a rope very successfully with my young dog. First because a very nice lady pro in Idaho had taught me to use one, second that this dog is an entirely different type and I have time to "get it right" without going arse over teakettle! And I have watched Steve train. He is not the least bit lackadaisical about it. He does indeed have a very, very calm cool demeanor with his dogs, and they react great to it. Personally, I was glad to see a little "looseness" in the dog in the video. Just off a hunting season, back with an old buddy, why not ease back into boot camp? Where is the harm if each day moves forward with good attitudes from both sides?


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

48 posts on ROPE and not a single one of them from Mr. Bora.........How could that happen


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm quite surprised that ya'll (retriever trainers) don't use a check cord more often (uh.. that's a rope fwiw  ) I guess the pointing breed trainer has that as their number one tool... I appreciate Steve S. posting this and hope the critiques don't keep him from posting another as every one of these "real" world examples is helpful.. Every dog is different as are the situations... experience can certainly be knowledge.

As to the rope... well.. I like em  and I cant twiddle twine to save my life... IMO is a low pressure and zero voice way to correct/stop/fix an issue so as to "show" the dog what you expect (learn).. I do however also agree in watching these videos (Col Blimp thanks too !) see where the recipe is littered with body language to initiate the appropriate success from the dog (cast the correct direction).

I do however prefer a much thicker rope... I understand the rope should not alone be so heavy as to influence the dog unnecessarily but a double wound is easier on the hands and less.. tangle prone.. just .02

Very much enjoyed this thread.. thanks to those that contributed !


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

waycool said:


> I'm quite surprised that ya'll (retriever trainers) don't use a check cord more often (uh.. that's a rope fwiw  ) I guess the pointing breed trainer has that as their number one tool... I appreciate Steve S. posting this and hope the critiques don't keep him from posting another as every one of these "real" world examples is helpful.. Every dog is different as are the situations... experience can certainly be knowledge.
> 
> As to the rope... well.. I like em  and I cant twiddle twine to save my life... IMO is a low pressure and zero voice *way to correct/stop/fix an issue so as to "show" the dog what you expect *(learn).. I do however also agree in watching these videos (Col Blimp thanks too !) see where the recipe is littered with body language to initiate the appropriate success from the dog (cast the correct direction).
> 
> ...


My 2p worth. A rope doesn't teach a dog or 'show' it anything. It is merely another correctional tool (low pressure as you call it - although shoulder stands don't look particularly low pressure to me?!). What is happening with this drill is that you are 'testing' the dog on its knowledge of the casts, not teaching it.

Like I say, I've never seen anybody in the UK use such a method for teaching left, right and back casting. It doesn't seem to need it? It's a fairly basic skill set, and relatively easy for the dog to pick up by teaching it carefully and methodically.

Anyway, vive la difference! again. Thanks Steve for posting the video to promote discussion. And, although I don't agree with it, Evan's video was nice and clear on how he does this exercise. Perhaps I should get off my typing butt and post my own video of pup doing this!...


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Tony Marshall said:


> Don't take offense my friend. Other people may not know better that are reading this and trying to decide which method to go with. I was just speaking as to human nature. Some would have done this. Many may have. The question I pose to you is if you got in a bind with this dog what would you have done?


If Newbs are going to train their dogs using random videos that they find on the internet, then I suspect the decision to use a rope or not is not going to matter.

The "what if" stuff in this and your previous post is just silly, the dog did none of these things. The dog's body language pretty much indicates that it is going to cast correctly.

In the end, we should judge Steve's method by looking at the finished product. Do his dogs learn to run blinds? Do they handle well? Are they stylish?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> My 2p worth. *A rope doesn't teach a dog or 'show' it anything*. It is merely another correctional tool (low pressure as you call it - although shoulder stands don't look particularly low pressure to me?!). What is happening with this drill is that you are 'testing' the dog on its knowledge of the casts, not teaching it.


Close to a good point there.  A rope is an aversive, and aversives don't teach or train. Trainers do that. I was glad Steve pointed out that even with the rope in use, I still moved laterally, and got closer to or further from the dog as needed to teach the behavior I wanted. I used the rope as an aversive to correct a behavior that was outside...opposite in fact...of the behavioral standard being trained. We don't rely on tools to do the teaching. But I think that only means we're closer in thinking than it may appear on the surface. I hope so.


kennel maiden said:


> Anyway, vive la difference! again. Thanks Steve for posting the video to promote discussion. And, although I don't agree with it, Evan's video was nice and clear on how he does this exercise. Perhaps I should get off my typing butt and post my own video of pup doing this!...


Thanks for joining the discussion. And thanks to Steve for getting it going. It puts him in somewhat the same respected sphere as Wayne, who offers videos of his fieldwork often - starting many good discussions. I think someone mentioned earlier that posting a video takes courage, and I agree.

Evan


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"What is happening with this drill is that you are 'testing' the dog on its knowledge of the casts, not teaching it."_

Referring back to Steve's first post "this is the first day of doing this casting drill". The dog is very familiar/conditioned to seeing a thrown bumper and sitting until asked to retrieve. What is "brand new" is adding the cast motion and verbal command from a remote place as part of the release. There is no prior knowledge....thus no testing.....when in fact it is teaching of a brand new expectation. 

_I've never seen anybody in the UK use such a method for teaching left, right and back casting. It doesn't seem to need it?_ 

The dog does need it for "the way" Steve is training....for one thing the dog has never done this before which is why he is teaching it. The fact the dog doesn't seem to "need it" would only apply if you were looking at it from an entirely different perspective. 

It is often confusing to take something "out of one context" and try to plug it into a different one.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> _"What is happening with this drill is that you are 'testing' the dog on its knowledge of the casts, not teaching it."_
> 
> Referring back to Steve's first post "this is the first day of doing this casting drill". The dog is very familiar/conditioned to seeing a thrown bumper and sitting until asked to retrieve. What is "brand new" is adding the cast motion from a remote place as part of the release. There is no prior knowledge....thus no testing.....when in fact it is teaching of a brand new expectation.
> 
> ...


Kwik, I think KM is referring to Evan's video, not Steve's.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

mitty said:


> If Newbs are going to train their dogs using random videos that they find on the internet, then I suspect the decision to use a rope or not is not going to matter.
> 
> The "what if" stuff in this and your previous post is just silly, the dog did none of these things. The dog's body language pretty much indicates that it is going to cast correctly.
> 
> In the end, we should judge Steve's method by looking at the finished product. Do his dogs learn to run blinds? Do they handle well? Are they stylish?


No one judged Steve or his finished product, simply had a discussion about why some use a rope. Secondly the "hypothetical" you are referring to are all things that can happen which is the reason some choose to use a rope. In a session or two he will be putting piles out for that dog. That is when the cord will really come into play. You can't tell me that in two or three sessions throwing the bumper that the response is conditioned and therefore there is a good chance that the dog will make a mistake. So let's break this down. Without a cord there is NO physical way to stop the dog without pressure or confusion (e collar or NO). Nobody is arguing that the other way works. They both work. Steve showed a nice dog that had a somewhat typical introductory session to three handed casting. Everyone has said this. The way the thread was titled we all just assumed we were discussing the idiosyncrasies of using a rope.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

KwickLabs said:


> _"What is happening with this drill is that you are 'testing' the dog on its knowledge of the casts, not teaching it."_
> 
> Referring back to Steve's first post "this is the first day of doing this casting drill". The dog is very familiar/conditioned to seeing a thrown bumper and sitting until asked to retrieve. What is "brand new" is adding the cast motion and verbal command from a remote place as part of the release. There is no prior knowledge....thus no testing.....when in fact it is teaching of a brand new expectation.
> 
> ...


Yeah, now I AM confused!!! LOL
As Mitty says I was referring to Evan's clip, not Steve's, as that is the one with the rope in it.  Steve, like me, doesn't use a rope. (this is becoming like one of those riddles!)

Now going back to Steve's video, that is interesting as you/he says this is the first time the dog has done any casting? And yet basics were done last summer? So, this dog must be around 14-18 months old already?! And not been taught left, right, back? We tend to teach casting as part of the 'basics' at about 7-8 months old. But wouldn't 'teach' it as a 3 card trick/3 hand casting drill. We break it down to each of the three directions and teach them all singly at that age. Then combine them later to 'test' if the dog has got them consolidated in the same sort of drill.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Tony Marshall said:


> No one judged Steve or his finished product, simply had a discussion about why some use a rope. Secondly the "hypothetical" you are referring to are all things that can happen which is the reason some choose to use a rope. In a session or two he will be putting piles out for that dog. That is when the cord will really come into play. You can't tell me that in two or three sessions throwing the bumper that the response is conditioned and therefore there is a good chance that the dog will make a mistake. So let's break this down. Without a cord there is NO physical way to stop the dog without pressure or confusion (e collar or NO). Nobody is arguing that the other way works. They both work. Steve showed a nice dog that had a somewhat typical introductory session to three handed casting. Everyone has said this. The way the thread was titled we all just assumed we were discussing the idiosyncrasies of using a rope.


Have you trained with Steve? If not, then you are assuming a lot about what is going to happen next.

If in the end Steve produces dogs that learn to handle and do so stylishly and efficiently, then I'm going to pay attention to what he is doing instead assuming it is all going to end in a mess.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

mitty said:


> Have you trained with Steve? If not, then you are assuming a lot about what is going to happen next.
> 
> If in the end Steve produces dogs that learn to handle and do so stylishly and efficiently, then I'm going to pay attention to what he is doing instead assuming it is all going to end in a mess.


In the end dogs are dogs. I don't have to train with Steve. I have trained enough dogs of my own to know that anything can happen. If I can go with a sure bet like being able to blow the whistle and stop the dog with a rope then I'm going to do it. Like I said before I have tried both ways and this one gets better results for me.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Some of the posters in this thread think they are discussing things, when in fact they are not at all open to new ideas. 

The UK contingent is saying they don't use ropes either, I'd be interested in seeing some video of their teaching process as well, and I hope Steve will post more videos of this dog's progression so we can see the remaining steps.

My dog is not very good at blinds, I am all ears (and eyes).


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Tony Marshall;11i3672 said:


> Don't take offense my friend. Other people may not know better that are reading this and trying to decide which method to go with. I was just speaking as to human nature. Some would have done this. Many may have. The question I pose to you is if you got in a bind with this dog what would you have done?



Sorry Tony. Guess I miss read your intentions. Imagine that on the internet.
What would I have done If this would have gone wrong? I would have stopped what I was doing and thought about what I needed to do to get on the right track.. Again this was just a feeler session to see what I was up against with this dog. She really surprised me.
Actually I expected her to screw up. Most videos show how it is supposed to go with a rehearsed dog. New people need to see more of what to do when things dont go as planned. Did another session with her today. I stepped up the difficulty and got a wrong move, one where a rope would have done some good. When I get time I will post it to show how I handle it.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Steve Shaver said:


> Sorry Tony. Guess I miss read your intentions. Imagine that on the internet.
> What would I have done If this would have gone wrong? I would have stopped what I was doing and thought about what I needed to do to get on the right track.. Again this was just a feeler session to see what I was up against with this dog. She really surprised me.
> Actually I expected her to screw up. Most videos show how it is supposed to go with a rehearsed dog. New people need to see more of what to do when things dont go as planned. Did another session with her today. I stepped up the difficulty and got a wrong move, one where a rope would have done some good. When I get time I will post it to show how I handle it.


I apologize as well if I seemed critical. Believe me I know what its like to get one back after season and think "WTH happened!?!?" She looks like a real nice dog that's real tractible. Hopefully it will all go that smooth.


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

kennel maiden said:


> My 2p worth. A rope doesn't teach a dog or 'show' it anything. It is merely another correctional tool (low pressure as you call it - although shoulder stands don't look particularly low pressure to me?!). ...


All do respect.. kindly avoid putting words in my mouth  You quoted my post and then just ignored what was written. There is nothing there that says a rope is anything but a tool in fact it stated that explicitly .. 

I guess didn't realize the 3HC was only to test the dog's knowledge... understood. 


Best regards,


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> I am all ears (and eyes).


That must look funny! Sorry. This came to mind.










Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> If Newbs are going to train their dogs using random videos that they find on the internet, then I suspect the decision to use a rope or not is not going to matter.
> 
> The "what if" stuff in this and your previous post is just silly, the dog did none of these things. The dog's body language pretty much indicates that it is going to cast correctly.
> 
> In the end, we should judge Steve's method by looking at the finished product. Do his dogs learn to run blinds? Do they handle well? Are they stylish?


I hope people don't train by the internet. It is for me really nice to see videos like Wayne's and Steve's posted on the forum. Hopefully a constructive conversation evolves! Maybe learn how the other person has handled a situation or compare your dog to what you see on the video but stick to your program. IMO I train 99% of the time by myself so seeing someone else is helpful but not a teaching session as to how it is to be done. As we can read there are many ways to accomplish that with your dog! Best training is day training with a pro, a mentor and get out there and train. IMO


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I hope people don't train by the internet. It is for me really nice to see videos like Wayne's and Steve's posted on the forum. Hopefully a constructive conversation evolves! Maybe learn how the other person has handled a situation or compare your dog to what you see on the video but stick to your program. IMO I train 99% of the time by myself so seeing someone else is helpful but not a teaching session as to how it is to be done. As we can read there are many ways to accomplish that with your dog! Best training is day training with a pro, a mentor and get out there and train. IMO


Couldn't agree more Mary Lynn !
Just like the Text on Internet or even a Book for that matter! There is no passion or personal touch that one get's from doing it! with a coach/mentor. All the DVD'S and Programs are useful to give a 'View' of what should be done. It's a different ball game when you have a living being that can be so unique, that no book or program or dvd or you tube clip can replicate. I personally use video films extensively to not only show specifics but as a training aid for myself to critique from the eye that I do not have.

Steve's original film is typical ,and some of the responses are also typical, based on what they see and interpret. Without explanation from the author , It's just a film.
For my 2c , The 'Rope' part was in the Topic heading,and some 'lashed' on to that. It makes no difference how or what tools you use (imo) as long as it works.
Never required one , so I'm in the camp of Steve and KM showing the power of Body Language being a more positive tool in this situation of teaching 3 hand casting. If it's about 'Body language' ...Try working a Spaniel ? ...It's like dancing with dogs


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I hope people don't train by the internet. It is for me really nice to see videos like Wayne's and Steve's posted on the forum. Hopefully a constructive conversation evolves! Maybe learn how the other person has handled a situation or compare your dog to what you see on the video but stick to your program. IMO I train 99% of the time by myself so seeing someone else is helpful but not a teaching session as to how it is to be done. As we can read there are many ways to accomplish that with your dog! Best training is day training with a pro, a mentor and get out there and train. IMO


Darn it Mary Lynn, I hope you are not disagreeing with me! 

Because I think we agree!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> Darn it Mary Lynn, I hope you are not disagreeing with me!
> 
> Because I think we agree!


We do agree Renee!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

First disclaimer: Yes there are many ways to train a dog. Otherwise we wouldn't even read threads like this.
Second disclaimer: Not being argumentative-just discussing pros and cons of different methods and giving a viewpoint.
Third disclaimer: Absolutely not targeted at Graham-he simply posted a video for us to talk about.

Re the Video using a rope: *For me, *it's a perfect example of why I do not use a rope. There is so much need to reel in the rope quickly and effectively and smoothly to prevent tangling(although there was!), it is impossible NOT to give terrible body English messages. All that reeling is taking away from one of our dog's greatest traits-their sensitivity to our movements. Instead of using all that "lying" arm movements, I use that left and right finessing to get a front sit. When the rope handler waves to the right he isn't telling the dog to go right, he is reeling rope. How is the dog to know what this means when the next time it means go right. Consistency of commands is a fundamental.

This dog can't front sit without the rope steering/dragging. Front sit is a valuable position for much basics and it is so easy to teach it by finessing with your body. Body movements are extremely important if you are consistent and precise. 

Re the Concept of preventing a wrong cast: I have no problem whatsoever, if a dog takes a wrong cast. I don't feel it is important to prevent that-ONLY to communicate that it was wrong. I hope I can stop a young dog at this stage with my voice or whistle. Even if not, what is wrong with simply getting the dog and bumper and returning and simplifying and repeating and then praising? I like a little conflict training, "Here's what I want","No that's not what I want", "Let's try again (simpler)", "OK let's see what you learned". You don't need tools like ropes and e-collars to do simple 3-handed casting. This a perfect time to teach a dog to focus on you, do what you say, make an effort to be rewarded and take on some responsibility. Those things are far more important than casting skills.

Finally, a later stage in this work after collar conditioning is to use this set-up to teach about Indirect Pressure for lack of effort. At this stage we are teaching the skill and wrong casts are due to lack of knowledge not lack of effort. For me, that's another reason to use my voice and whistle to communicate to him rather than the force of stopping him with a rope.

I have little interest in arguing or debating this further because each to his own. But I thought some should hear the rational outside of the "klutz with a rope" argument.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> First disclaimer: Yes there are many ways to train a dog. Otherwise we wouldn't even read threads like this.
> Second disclaimer: Not being argumentative-just discussing pros and cons of different methods and giving a viewpoint.
> Third disclaimer: Absolutely not targeted at Graham-he simply posted a video for us to talk about.
> 
> ...


Thank you, yet again, Dennis....I am not a rope user


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

Heck, I missed the history @ the beginning of the video - still like your Homer dog too.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Rnd said:


> 48 posts on ROPE and not a single one of them from Mr. Bora.........How could that happen


you guys is doin' just fine



Steve Shaver said:


> ...... Again this was just a feeler session to see what I was up against with this dog. She really surprised me. Actually I expected her to screw up.........


Zactly!
Best thing about rope is knowing when you want it and when you don't.
for the task at hand in the first vid the rope I would have had on the dog would be 4 inches long.
I run tabs on dogs, that may be just me.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

now tabs are a different story, ALL young dogs through transition are wearing a tab


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Zactly!
> Best thing about rope is knowing when you want it and when you don't.
> for the task at hand in the first vid the rope I would have had on the dog would be 4 inches long.
> I run tabs on dogs, that may be just me.


Nice thing about having training tools. Tabs, ropes, e-collars, heeling sticks; just because you have them doesn't mean you have to use them all the time. But I maintain that it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I'm also a tab fan.

Evan


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> First disclaimer: Yes there are many ways to train a dog. Otherwise we wouldn't even read threads like this.
> Second disclaimer: Not being argumentative-just discussing pros and cons of different methods and giving a viewpoint.
> Third disclaimer: Absolutely not targeted at Graham-he simply posted a video for us to talk about.
> 
> ...


Hallelujah!!!!

Finally a post from someone who actually trains dogs and succeeds at the highest level, and understands the subtle nuances that promote success that cuts through the fog created by those who don't successfully train and compete and who have all day long to be internet experts post up erroneous info that newbies won't understand and can be misled by.

Sadly Dennis and his ilk are becoming a dying breed here

Thanks for your time and expertise Dennis; your posts are always a breath of fresh air & enlightenment.


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> But I thought some should hear the rational outside of the "klutz with a rope" argument.


Well stated .... thanks for the excellent information....! obviously this subject of ropes is..... rather sensitive for some &#55357;&#56841;


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Not arguing. But I use a rope at the beginning of simple casting. But it does
take some practice. I have a video of the first time I used a rope. I will post when I get some time next week. It is a riot and I look like a total klutz.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Learning to use rope. I looked like a dufus. But we have to learn to laugh at ourselves. It took a while to get the hang of rope.
http://s868.photobucket.com/user/waynenutt/media/CabbiePilework_zps85394565.mp4.html


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks for posting you videos, looks like you have a nice dog and a team player


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Not arguing. But I use a rope at the beginning of simple casting. But it does
> take some practice. I have a video of the first time I used a rope. I will post when I get some time next week. It is a riot and I look like a total klutz.


You're a TRT guy, right Wayne. Your rope use looks that way, and even though you weren't polished at keeping the rope clear yet I thought you used the tool wisely. On TRT 2nd edition Mike uses it the same way. I would suggest wearing gloves though.

Evan


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