# How Factors Effect Dogs



## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm working on a 30-40 minute presentation to offer at a Club meeting. The topic will be "How Factors Effect Dogs (terrain, cover, wind, lighting). Rather than simply regurgitate material already on the market, I've decided to draw on the wisdom and experiences of this forum for ideas. I'm undecided if I'll do this via power point or lecture and white board. For formalities sake, let's assume my audience has all followed a dedicated training program and has dogs ready to do AKC Master level work. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs? If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

cpmm665 said:


> I'm working on a 30-40 minute presentation to offer at a Club meeting. The topic will be "How Factors Effect Dogs (terrain, cover, wind, lighting). Rather than simply regurgitate material already on the market, I've decided to draw on the wisdom and experiences of this forum for ideas. I'm undecided if I'll do this via power point or lecture and white board. For formalities sake, let's assume my audience has all followed a dedicated training program and has dogs ready to do AKC Master level work. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs? If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?


WIND!!!

Dogs live by their noses more than we know!!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Cindy,

"Factor" has become something of a buzz word in the retriever world, and often there are incomplete or even incorrect assumptions made about the well known 'factors'. What they are is diversion factors, and each operates on one or more of the following; Flare, Suction, Drift. Those influences divert dogs or they would not be factors.

You mentioned terrain (very non-specific), cover (somewhat less vague), wind (i.e. crossing?), lighting (Not likely to be a factor in testing, or in hunting with a responsible hunter). You wouldn't normally be worrying about completing retrieves during lightening, but rather getting you and your dog to safety. All that taken at face value, let me give you some examples of how factors work in diverting routes.

Flare: An obstacle, like a fallen tree or hay bale, is directly in the path to a blind retrieve. If the dog does not choose to jump over it, but instead run around it, he has been diverted (flaring it). Only one example.
Suction: A recent fallen bird is near or on the route to a blind, and draws the dog offline toward it instead of remaining on the line given by the handler. (suction to the old fall) Again, just one example.
Drift: A crossing wind (say - right to left) blowing across the route to a fall. The dog follows the direction of the wind rather than holding the line; drifting with it.

If some physical element in a set up, especially in or near a route, it is only a factor if it tends to divert dogs by its presence.

Evan


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Evan said:


> Cindy,
> 
> "Factor" has become something of a buzz word in the retriever world, and often there are incomplete or even incorrect assumptions made about the well known 'factors'. What they are is diversion factors, and each operates on one or more of the following; Flare, Suction, Drift. Those influences divert dogs or they would not be factors.
> 
> ...


So I'm thinking perhaps I can now narrow the subject matter down even more to: How factors work in diverting routes. Thanks Evan.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Can we please move past "way to kill a thread" thank you Dennis and Evan and hear from some Amateurs? It's Ladies Night.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Way to kill a thread? That is an increditably rude thing to say considering they answered your question very well.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm not of the female gender but I sure would agree with Dennis that wind is probably the biggest influence on dogs....Steve S


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

cpmm665 said:


> Can we please move past "way to kill a thread" thank you Dennis and Evan and hear from some Amateurs? It's Ladies Night.


I'd like to assume your sarcastic response was intended to be humorous (you failed). Both Dennis and Evan gave astute answers to your question and it would serve you well in incorporate their answers in your presentation. 

"Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less."


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

So, without being sacrcastic...

Could Lynn and John please help me understand how I, as a handler, can use what Evan wrote in response to this question...

"If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be? "

What was the one factor?

What was the most important thing for me to be aware of as a handler that was emphasized?


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## smok'in gun (Mar 31, 2009)

Lynn, I'm going to guess that you was kidding.... because Cindy was... you know about them being thread killers. They gave such great answers that no else has anything to add, but wait... my dog is at senior level and the greatest factor of them all is water cheating. He understands the concept of down the shore, past the pt, channels, cheating entrys and re-entrys and all but he has to be reminded every once and awhile to remain sharp. It's like he's seeing what he can get away with after not doing that factor in a while. Anyway that's my take, that water cheating is a tougher factor than all the others put together, good luck on your presentation.

Jeff Warren


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

I have faith that someone will respond with something as factual as "dogs don't like to run into the wind", or "dog's will dig up a Hill". I'm Humble like that.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ok, I will give it a shot. Then folks can have a little fun at my expense...

IMO, wind is the factor influencing dog's performance most so, if I could only talk on one factor, I choose wind.

What I think is the most important thing to emphasize...

In training, handle the dog as soon as you read the dog is giving in to the factor.

Dogs tend to fade with a crosswind and quarter into a head wind. So...

When you cast a dog with the wind, you will likely get more cast than you give. Give voice with this cast to minimize the overcast.

When you cast a dog into the wind, you will likely get less cast than you give. Do not give voice with this cast to maximize the amount of cast you get.

In a trial or test, read the amount of cast the dog gives you and if you don't get enough, imediately make the next cast bigger. This is no time for litteral casting.

OK, fire away...


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

_If I was going to your seminar, I would like to see some handout on different setups and to go through them and explain as a handler at a test or trial, how would I read each setup as it pertains to the wind, suction to blinds, where would be the best Way to exit the holding blind and approach the line,is it some times best not to go for the last fall first ect... I don't know about everyone else, but for me most of my job take place before I even get to the line and I still have along way to go until I get it right in the vary short time I have to take everything in. _


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Not someone who can speak as an advice giver, but as an advice taker and someone who would love to be in the audience, I would be wondering: what is the factor most used by the judges to create a challenging test or trial. Is it indeed wind? While wind is undoubtedly a major "factor" I'll bet the judges use the qualities of the grounds (hillside, dips, cover, ditches, water) to make or break . As an audience member, I would want the lecturer to give useful information about how the judges pick out the factors available at the test grounds and how they use them to challenge the dogs/handlers - then of course, discuss how to train for those factors. 

Hope I'm not just stating the obvious...

Woman responder regards -

edit: yeah, what truthseeker said!


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> _If I was going to your seminar, I would like to see some handout on different setups and to go through them and explain as a handler at a test or trial, how would I read each setup as it pertains to the wind, suction to blinds, where would be the best Way to exit the holding blind and approach the line,is it some times best not to go for the last fall first ect... I don't know about everyone else, but for me most of my job take place before I even get to the line and I still have along way to go until I get it right in the vary short time I have to take everything in. _


Agreed. But the topic is how factors effect dogs, what you are describing is Handling techniques. I agree, your job is to understand the factors.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Jhenion said:


> Not someone who can speak as an advice giver, but as an advice taker and someone who would love to be in the audience, I would be wondering: what is the factor most used by the judges to create a challenging test or trial. Is it indeed wind? While wind is undoubtedly a major "factor" I'll bet the judges use the qualities of the grounds (hillside, dips, cover, ditches, water) to make or break . As an audience member, I would want the lecturer to give useful information about how the judges pick out the factors available at the test grounds and how they use them to challenge the dogs/handlers - then of course, discuss how to train for those factors.
> 
> Hope I'm not just stating the obvious...
> 
> ...


My presentation won't be about Handling, that's another day. Let's stay on topic, Terrain, cover, wind, lighting and how they effect dogs. How to Handle those factors is a Pro's seminar.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

cpmm665 said:


> Agreed. But the topic is how factors effect dogs, what you are describing is Handling techniques. I agree, your job is to understand the factors.


No advice as to the actual question, but if you are going to put anything in print, you should be aware that what you are talking about is factors that AFFECT dogs, not EFFECT. Two similar words: a factor that has an EFFECT on a dog's performance AFFECTS that performance.

HPL


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

I ran a blind off a slight incline, my dog fell off the hill and didn't hold a straight line to the blind.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

OK, I stand corrected. You received one really good response. I’m going to do something here that I probably should not do. I’m going to expand on Dennis’s statement. I’m sure Dennis was brief because he knows that it was either stay brief or write a book.
Of all the factors pup must learn to deal with, wind is the most difficult. You can show pup how to deal with terrain by walking out there and showing him where to go. The same is true with obstacles and it is even easier with water, however you cannot show pup how to fight the wind because people are dead nosed and don’t understand what a super highway the wind is to a dog. Also, the wind has no edges you can teach the dog to avoid. It has no substance the dog can see but its effects are real and powerful.
Part of the solution starts with the first marks you throw for pup. Those marks should be designed to encourage pup to use his eyes rather than his nose and that practice should be followed for at least the first year of his life. We rarely throw marks into cover but we frequently throw marks past cover so pup will see the bird before he smells it. When we run sight blinds we use cross winds to get the pup used to running to a target to build the habit of running straight. We do the same thing into the wind to break the tendency to quarter.
I could go on about this forever because teaching pup to fight the wind is something you will have to train for his entire life and it is a lot like golf. You can only play the game. You cannot win the game.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

HPL said:


> No advice as to the actual question, but if you are going to put anything in print, you should be aware that what you are talking about is factors that AFFECT dogs, not EFFECT. Two similar words: a factor that has an EFFECT on a dog's performance AFFECTS that performance.
> 
> HPL


I get confused with the A and the E sometimes. A factor that has an EFFECT on a dog's performance might be; terrain, cover, wind. Effect is a noun.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Who is your audience? Judges picking factors to use in a test or handlers wanting to learn how factors AFFECT dogs? or both? 

Is your question: what is the most significant factor to talk about? or what would one say about any of them? Your original post is a little vague which may be the reason you're not getting what you want.


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

outstanding post Lynn H, Thank you!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> OK, I stand corrected. You received one really good response. I’m going to do something here that I probably should not do. I’m going to expand on Dennis’s statement. I’m sure Dennis was brief because he knows that it was either stay brief or write a book.
> Of all the factors pup must learn to deal with, wind is the most difficult. You can show pup how to deal with terrain by walking out there and showing him where to go. The same is true with obstacles and it is even easier with water, however you cannot show pup how to fight the wind because people are dead nosed and don’t understand what a super highway the wind is to a dog. Also, the wind has no edges you can teach the dog to avoid. It has no substance the dog can see but its effects are real and powerful.
> Part of the solution starts with the first marks you throw for pup. Those marks should be designed to encourage pup to use his eyes rather than his nose and that practice should be followed for at least the first year of his life. We rarely throw marks into cover but we frequently throw marks past cover so pup will see the bird before he smells it. When we run sight blinds we use cross winds to get the pup used to running to a target to build the habit of running straight. We do the same thing into the wind to break the tendency to quarter.
> I could go on about this forever because teaching pup to fight the wind is something you will have to train for his entire life and it is a lot like golf. You can only play the game. You cannot win the game.


Very good post.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> OK, I stand corrected. You received one really good response. I’m going to do something here that I probably should not do. I’m going to expand on Dennis’s statement. I’m sure Dennis was brief because he knows that it was either stay brief or write a book.
> Of all the factors pup must learn to deal with, wind is the most difficult. You can show pup how to deal with terrain by walking out there and showing him where to go. The same is true with obstacles and it is even easier with water, however you cannot show pup how to fight the wind because people are dead nosed and don’t understand what a super highway the wind is to a dog. Also, the wind has no edges you can teach the dog to avoid. It has no substance the dog can see but its effects are real and powerful.
> Part of the solution starts with the first marks you throw for pup. Those marks should be designed to encourage pup to use his eyes rather than his nose and that practice should be followed for at least the first year of his life. We rarely throw marks into cover but we frequently throw marks past cover so pup will see the bird before he smells it. When we run sight blinds we use cross winds to get the pup used to running to a target to build the habit of running straight. We do the same thing into the wind to break the tendency to quarter.
> I could go on about this forever because teaching pup to fight the wind is something you will have to train for his entire life and it is a lot like golf. You can only play the game. You cannot win the game.


Thank you for that how "WIND" is a factor explanation. Excellent!


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

Alright, I'll contribute as well. I'd like to expand on cover and angles, specifically changes in cover and how sharp angles forces dogs off line. Lets consider a mark, thrown such that the gunner is aligned with the bottom of the hill and the mark is thrown up the hill such the dog must carry the side hill for more than a short distance. For the sake of argument let's just say ~150 yds on a side hill. Let's also consider that enroute to this mark, there is a change in cover that is a strip of taller, thicker grasses that is at an angle, 45 degrees or less (a very skinny angle), on the line to the mark. The straight line to the mark would be along the side hill, through the strip at a skinny angle. Let's ignore other considerations such as wind, lighting etc......

Do you think the dog would:

1- carry the line to the mark
2- flare the cover and fall off the hill
3- climb the hill and square the cover


Under this scenario you've got a couple of "Factors" the dogs must deal with. 

1- running a side hill at a distance is not something most dogs do willingly. I don't blame them, running a side hill is not the most efficient way to get from point A to point B. Most would climb or fall off.
2-Angled cover. I'll use an analogy Ted Shih brought up in an earlier thread I think illustrates this effectively. Consider a spear thrown at a shield at a 90 degree angle. Chances are the spear will have a good chance to penetrate the surface. Now consider a spear thrown at a shield which is held at a 45 degree angle. Chances are good the spear will deflect away from the shield. Consider the dog the spear and the cover the shield. The more severe the angle the likely hood a dog will "flare" away from the cover. Evan brought this definition up earlier in this thread. 


Ted Shih had some earlier threads about setting up Derby marks and all age marks. Mind you it isn't the only way to do things, just the way he approaches training to which I concur. Some of these concepts were discussed in greater detail and you might find them helpful. 

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80394

http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ad.php?t=80693


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ok, in reading Lynn's post (and considering Dennis' reference to the nose) it would appear to me that wind may be more of a factor because of scent pulling the dog rather than because the wind is pushing the dog. And since we are talking about MH tests and distances rather than AA tests and distances, the push if the wind will obviously have less impact on the Dog's performance with the relatively short marks. So what important idea/tip/strategy can you emphasize for the handler with a roughly 2 - 3 year old dog with a good foundation in basics and getting ready to run AKC Master tests to help him/her deal with this factor of the wind?


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

John Montenieri said:


> Alright, I'll contribute as well. I'd like to expand on cover and angles, specifically changes in cover and how sharp angles forces dogs off line. Lets consider a mark, thrown such that the gunner is aligned with the bottom of the hill and the mark is thrown up the hill such the dog must carry the side hill for more than a short distance. For the sake of argument let's just say ~150 yds on a side hill. Let's also consider that enroute to this mark, there is a change in cover that is a strip of taller, thicker grasses that is at an angle, 45 degrees or less (a very skinny angle), on the line to the mark. The straight line to the mark would be along the side hill, through the strip at a skinny angle. Let's ignore other considerations such as wind, lighting etc......
> 
> Do you think the dog would:
> 
> ...


Thank you O Warrior 300. I did "search" for similar threads, guess I'm too blatantly obvious. Your links do not work.404 Not Found.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Ok, in reading Lynn's post (and considering Dennis' reference to the nose) it would appear to me that wind may be more of a factor because of scent pulling the dog rather than because the wind is pushing the dog. And since we are talking about MH tests and distances rather than AA tests and distances, the push if the wind will obviously have less impact on the Dog's performance with the relatively short marks. So what important idea/tip/strategy can you emphasize for the handler with a roughly 2 - 3 year old dog with a good foundation in basics and getting ready to run AKC Master tests to help him/her deal with this factor of the wind?


We've heard from the "WIND" gallery, how about cover?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ok Gooser time
all this fancy talk a girls night out, killin threads, wind,terrain,lighting, all don't make a dip a difference UNLESS

ya first makes sure 

dog can see guns ,,,dog can see birds ,,,dog can see the fall..
I think if more people would pay attention to those things first,,,, then we kin start discussin what AEFfects the dogs performance


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And a course all the above in my response is only relevant if we is talkin marking.

the lady never diferfrachaeated wether blinds er marks

gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

P.s.

i is a guy!

but , have been known to play dress up a time or two


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I vote for wind. It's the only non tangible factor.

/paul


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Ok Gooser time
> all this fancy talk a girls night out, killin threads, wind,terrain,lighting, all don't make a dip a difference UNLESS
> 
> ya first makes sure
> ...


I've seen you in bubbles and shorts, the Dawg has all things workin' in it's favor. Yes, Marks and Blinds, all things gnarly.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

cpmm665 said:


> I get confused with the A and the E sometimes. *A factor that has an EFFECT on a dog's performance might *be; terrain, cover, wind. Effect is a noun.


Correct usage there, but both Affect and Effect can be a noun or a verb depending on usage, so I end up looking them both up all the time to be sure that I am using the correct one. Effect is the one that is most commonly a noun, and Affect most often a verb. 

Interesting thread, by the way. Didn't really understand the little bit of snarkiness in the beginning. I don't play the games, just hunt my knucklehead and have mostly taught him to get to area of fall and then work the wind. Terrain not much of a factor here as we are FLATTT and unlike those that play the games, I don't really mind the bank running as I mostly hunt dove and would rather take home a dog that hasn't just been swimming in a stinky stock tank.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

cpmm665 said:


> Can we please move past "way to kill a thread" thank you Dennis and Evan and hear from some Amateurs? It's Ladies Night.




What does this mean? Answering two of your questions and as an Amateur and you label it “killing the thread”?

You asked 3 questions.
1. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs? 
2. If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and, 
3. emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?

I answered 2 and 3. The answer to 1. Is rather obvious in that factors affect dogs by making it difficult for dogs to reach their destination. I assume you know how factors do that or you wouldn’t have been asked for the presentation. 

Perhaps you should give us your key points and request feedback. No point in regurgitating the market material as you say. But not sure what you understand from that market? Assume you know that dogs fade with the wind which I believe is paramount to consider for every retrieve. I think, perhaps contrary to Captainjack, that fading is more important than being attracted to scent. When dogs can’t smell anything on their route, they naturally drift downwind. We called this the wind is pushing them but they are allowing themselves to keep checking where they don’t smell anything. This is more common than being attracted to en route drag back although the later can be critical.

The key to understanding any factor and especially wind is that distance enhances them. In other words, the factor operates to influence the dog for a longer time. That’s why field trialers spend their dogs life working on factors and hunt testers pay far less attention. A long cross hill mark will eventually act to cause dogs to climb or fall but this is often irrelevant on a short retrieve. Water acts as a factor to deviate dogs when they try to run around it either to get there faster or because they have an aversion to it. While in the water, the “easy” shoreline is an attraction. Distance is important for both. Water as a factor is easier to train for than is wind. As I said “dogs live by their noses”. The vast majority of birds are found by their nose even though the eyes get them there. Failure to get there because of factors and then failure to smell a bird is the cause for almost all retrieve failures.

A discussion of simple single factors is rather basic. What is challenging is understanding how factors complement each other. Are they in concert of cancelling? Two or three factors all influencing the dog in the same direction are extremely powerful (wind onto shore) whereas factors that cancel each other (wind off shore) are lesser.

Diversions as used in the Rule Book are man introduced things like birds thrown and retrieved or not. I do not mind including them as factors because they do deviate a dog from their line. Historically, factors were more considered natural influences such as wind, water, terrain, and cover. 

Incidentally, I do not think “factors’ are a buzz word. They have been part of the literature since the 1970’s and before(eg. Rex Carr) and the Rule book specially describes them and their role in designing tests.


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

Sorry the links didn't work. I searched and found these again, also copied and pasted into a new browser window and they came up so hopefully they work. 

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...693-Setting-Up-Derby-Marks&highlight=ted+shih

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-All-Age-set-of-Land-Marks&highlight=ted+shih

Both were great exercises in setting up marks and why features/space and other marks would push/pull dogs. Hopefully with the responses you've gotten you have enough material to talk about.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> What does this mean? Answering two of your questions and as an Amateur and you label it “killing the thread”?
> 
> .


bet she was playing the debate drinking game and may have been purty liquered up by time of post.
Like Evan was as well, lighting not lightENing ;-)
very nice points Dennis.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.

i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..

How many times have you seen dogs that avoid factors, but they very much know where the bird is when MARKING.. 
Is the line to that mark judged? by rule.

I suppose there will be some that will use the disturbing to much cover argument, but,, if the dog takes his own way to the mark,, deliberatly, with no hunt along the way to the AOF,, and once there,, establishes his hunt and picks up the bird,, why is there a debate on factors?? wont that dog pass?

Many hunt test venues dont judge the return. Very few HT participants worry about it when training. But yet, many Pros willtellyou, that its important to train the return becuse they believe a dog that cheats the return or is AEFected by Factors will do the same on the way out..

If we are talking *MARKING* and only the HT venues, and considering for the most part, the guns are hidden,how can we even consider how the "Factors" AEffect the dog, if we really arent SURE the dog saw the mark in the first place? We pretty much just Assume the dog SHOULD have seen it.. 
Judges Judge that dogs performance to the standard by watching the dog make the AOF with determination knowing clearly where the bird is. Do we judge the line??? Can a dog that cheats,, or avoids, or is influenced by Factors be a reliable marker, and PASS a HT? I think so!

I believe some times when a HT dog looses itsway on a mark,,and I hear folks say the dog caved to some diversion or factor, and that caused him to get lost,, I always ask myself,,how do they know FOR SURE the dog saw the mark? The Gun is hidden,, the timming between throws many be a bit fast, a miriad of reasons ,but what the problem is, we dont taken enough care many times to make sure the dog SEES! Many times I believe there are deliberate moves in HT to make it difficult for the dog NOT to SEE . 
How can you have a discussion of factors AEFFecting a dog in that senario?

I believe much of the talk at the OP seminar, should include a serious discussion talking about making sure dog get every chance to SEE marks thrown..
And a discussion about NOT setting up tests that trick, or make it difficult for a dog to see...

Blinds are different. You are required to challenge the line that takes the most direct path to the bird. (Some Venues)
In that senario,, the Factors play a HUGE role... they are utilised,, and judges judge how the dog makes its way through them.
You dont have to consider a hidden gun, and wether the dog saw anything! 

JMHO.

Gooser


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> bet she was playing the debate drinking game and may have been purty liquered up by time of post.
> Like Evan was as well, lighting not lightENing ;-)
> very nice points Dennis.


Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.

Jim


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Wow! Gooser. That sounds like the beginning of sagacity. My compliments to the people you have been training with.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

T-Pines said:


> Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.
> 
> Jim


Very nice. I really like this one.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

captainjack said:


> Ok, in reading Lynn's post (and considering Dennis' reference to the nose) it would appear to me that wind may be more of a factor because of scent pulling the dog rather than because the wind is pushing the dog. And since we are talking about MH tests and distances rather than AA tests and distances, the push if the wind will obviously have less impact on the Dog's performance with the relatively short marks. factor of the wind?*So what important idea/tip/strategy can you emphasize for the handler with a roughly 2 - 3 year old dog with a good foundation in basics and getting ready to run AKC Master tests to help him/her deal with this *


ALWAYS play the WIND! 

Push will affect hunting in the area of the fall even at short distances. Will your dog hunt into the wind when he is in the area of the fall? Thorw lots of marks angled into the wind.

On marks at a test, bias your dog to get the wind. In training, teach them to figt the wind but learn to stay in and area and persistently hunt the slighest whiff. But at the same time you need to teach them about drag-back--This is a tough combo and requires time and well-designed set-ups.

On blinds at a test, be sure your ending is downwind BUT never gamble that your dog will smell the bird on the downwind side. In training, be sure you can get a cast into the wind at the end (or any time!). Bear down and concentrate on the endings in training so you can do it in tests.

Wind saves are what dogs have noses for. The judge that downscores a "wind save" deserves to own a dog that can't smell!!!

PS. Just more from the "wind" gallery!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Sagacity????REALLYYY???

Thanks I think..

I have spent the last half hour by first looking up the definition of the word you used,, then I had to look up several of the words the dictionary used to define it.!!

Ya either complimennted the training group,, or you gave them sympathy sarcsticalistically.

Gooser

They's a special bunch a people.. I cant believe they invite me back each week..


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.
> 
> i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..
> 
> ...


Interesting points, and sagacious they may be, but what the heck does a castrated sheep have to do with anything!!??


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

T-Pines said:


> Since you brought it up ... I think Evan misread it as lightning, not lighting nor lightENing. Although, I do have a dog that isn't wild about thunder, but I have been working on it and I think the effect is lightening.
> 
> Jim


Jim,

Thanks. I just added an "e" that didn't belong.  You're right, though; I misread "lighting" as "lightning". I don't know what the OP got upset about, but I think there have been numerous helpful responses.

As an aside, by calling 'factors' a buzz word I don't mean to suggest that it's a new term. I just think it's become one of those words that has been tossed around so much that many people have come to use it without a clear understanding of its meaning. There is nothing cryptic about elements that fit the profile of a factor. But as people have been drawn into retriever sports I've noted that there is a self-imposed push to acquire the use of jargon, and that sometimes the meaning and significance of some terms is assumed incorrectly.

I thought I understood what the OP was looking for until post #3. I hoped to be helpful, but have perhaps missed the mark.

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I vote for wind discussion. I think it is really important when judges set the trial up to be very cognizant to use the wind to their favor. So it behoves the handles to understand how the dog will react and know how to correct when training and in a trial. Bird placement (downwind bird or if the bird is thrown into the wind) are important to discuss as to how the dog will react. JMHO


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Very good point here.

I have had to learn that you can't watch the mark only, you have to see the mark with one eye and he dog with the other. I can always tell when my dog marked it and when he didn't.

If for some reason I didn't see him, I can always ask him "Where's your mark?" and his reaction will tell me if he marked it. You may not want to do that at a test. 

If it is a second mark, I can tell by the way he comes back and lines himself up (or doesn't).

On the factors, wind is the most pervasive it seems. Other than that, I have been taught to look at the line, and generally a dog wants to go where water would. Obviously this is not directly applicable to uphill marks.

Do you guys put the birds where a dog doesn't want to go and then set the line based on the factors, or do you choose the line and factors and then place the bird?



MooseGooser said:


> For the OP that is prepping a lecture on factors that AEFfect dogs at the master HT level.
> 
> i think discussion has to include the rules of the venue..
> 
> ...


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> ALWAYS play the WIND!
> 
> Push will affect hunting in the area of the fall even at short distances. Will your dog hunt into the wind when he is in the area of the fall? Thorw lots of marks angled into the wind.
> 
> ...


Dennis, years ago we had a section on judging the nose of a dog ...in the HT world...a wind save can look very impressive but if it is too far from the area ,should the dog recieve as good a score as one that was in the area?


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

steve schreiner said:


> Dennis, years ago we had a section on judging the nose of a dog ...in the HT world...a wind save can look very impressive but if it is too far from the area ,should the dog recieve as good a score as one that was in the area?



This is a good question albeit off the thread topic! When I judge I really pay attention and record where the dog started his hunt. That is where the dog first thought the bird was. After that is all about how well he hunts it up.

On a mark where a dog is running past and smells a bird, I mark where the dog first smelled the bird as where he started his hunt!! Then he works out how to get the bird. If the dog smelled the bird two feet away, he obviously was very close to the bird. If he smelled it 50 yards away, he was not so close and is scored accordingly. So if the dog was out of the area of what I consider the fall and smelled the bird, of course he would not score as well. But I do not penalize the dog for smelling the bird-as I said that is why they have noses!!!

I have found this to be a good way to deal with these long-distance so-called "wind saves" over the years.

PS. I disagree with the philosphy of some HRC judges that penalize a dog on a blind for smelling the bird and going to it even if it is only 2-3 feet. That is not hunting up the bird, that is putting the dog where he can scoop up the bird in a few feet.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> This is a good question albeit off the thread topic! When I judge I really pay attention and record where the dog started his hunt. That is where the dog first thought the bird was. After that is all about how well he hunts it up.
> 
> On a mark where a dog is running past and smells a bird, I mark where the dog first smelled the bird as where he started his hunt!! Then he works out how to get the bird. If the dog smelled the bird two feet away, he obviously was very close to the bird. If he smelled it 50 yards away, he was not so close and is scored accordingly. So if the dog was out of the area of what I consider the fall and smelled the bird, of course he would not score as well. But I do not penalize the dog for smelling the bird-as I said that is why they have noses!!!
> 
> ...


We talk about factors a lot.

I have rarely had anyone when discussing factors,add the factor of water current.


Dennis, I am surprised at your remark about some Hrc judges.
I have not experienced this. In fact the rule book clearly states that the dogs nose is a valuable asset, and the dog should not be penalized for honoring it.
what I have seen is dogs on blinds that as soon as the handler sends, the dog drops its nose, and hunts all the way out on the blind, until the dog winds the bird
the handler will show little if any control, and not demonstrate team work,and the dog will be dropped.


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> PS. I disagree with the philosphy of some HRC judges that penalize a dog on a blind for smelling the bird and going to it even if it is only 2-3 feet. That is not hunting up the bird, that is putting the dog where he can scoop up the bird in a few feet.


Sorry off topic but ... I don't think that HRC judges penalize the dog for using it's nose but rather for lacking control and slipping a whistle at or near the finish of the blind because they smell the bird. The blind retrieve is all about control in a test situation control to the Bird ,,, not to the area and establish a hunt ... HRC has four levels of control Started, Seasoned, Finished and Grand ... the HRC Philosophy can be discovered in the Judges Handlers Seminar pamphlet at the Huntungretieverclub.org home page ... a refusal is a refusl no matter where it happens in route to the recovery of the blind ...


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?
Cindy Von Sutphen
SOUND - as in the sound of your page being ripped from the judge's book  sorry , couldn't help myself ... of your 4 choices , I say wind... if the dog winds the bird , the other 3 would not stop the dog from getting the chicken


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## Gunner's Dad (Jul 18, 2012)

While not the biggest issue i have had light really effect my dog. More like a shadow. We were in a field with a thick tree line. Blind was at one end of the field with a shadow going across the field. the dog ran the shadow every time, for a least a second or two he would break his line to try and stay in the sun. AT first i thought it was something else pulling him, smell or something, but on different days and times he will run the shadow. Weird stuff.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

T


bruce said:


> Sorry off topic but ... I don't think that HRC judges penalize the dog for using it's nose but rather for lacking control and slipping a whistle at or near the finish of the blind because they smell the bird. The blind retrieve is all about control in a test situation control to the Bird ,,, not to the area and establish a hunt ... HRC has four levels of control Started, Seasoned, Finished and Grand ... the HRC Philosophy can be discovered in the Judges Handlers Seminar pamphlet at the Huntungretieverclub.org home page ... a refusal is a refusl no matter where it happens in route to the recovery of the blind ...


Yes, and I too disagree with that philosophy. 2-3 feet straight to the bird is not establishing a hunt IMO. If that last 2-3 feet of a finished or grand blind is the only opportunity for the handler to display, and for the judges to evaluate control, then wasn't it a poorly set up blind?


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

captainjack said:


> T
> Yes, and I too disagree with that philosophy. 2-3 feet straight to the bird is not establishing a hunt IMO. If that last 2-3 feet of a finished or grand blind is the only opportunity for the handler to display, and for the judges to evaluate control, then wasn't it a poorly set up blind?


Again off subject but ... I'd see it as handler error for giving a sit command that the dog then auto-casted out of on scent. If the dog is within 2-3 feet and you blow that is a conscious decision on the part of the handler and if that whistle is slipped disobedience on the part of the dog. If a dog winds a blind at 100 yards or within feet and refuses a whistle en-route and continues to the blind without further intervention on his own it is a refusal plan and simple. Has he exhibited finished control or a great nose who works independently of the handler? not necessarily in and of itself a disqualifier but recorded as a refusal ... when added to the overall performance may be the straw that changed a passing to a marginal performance or a marginal to a failing performance, ... "handle to the bird" ... nothing about establishing a hunt, simply blow [handler], sit [dog], cast [handler] recover bird [dog], and praise [handler] ... in my book lining the blind is the ultimate control ...


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> If the dog is within 2-3 feet and you blow that is a conscious decision on the part of the handler and if that whistle is slipped disobedience on the part of the dog.


I would think most trial judges would think of a whistle after you've gotten your dog to within a yard of the blind as a check whistle to ensure your dog doesn't overrun the blind.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

bruce said:


> If the dog is within 2-3 feet and you blow that is a conscious decision on the part of the handler and if that whistle is slipped disobedience on the part of the dog. If a dog winds a blind at 100 yards or within feet and refuses a whistle en-route and continues to the blind without further intervention on his own it is a refusal plan and simple.


I disagree. As a judge, my response is identical to Rhett Butler's retort to Scarlett O'Hara "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

Howard N said:


> I would think most trial judges would think of a whistle after you've gotten your dog to within a yard of the blind as a check whistle to ensure your dog doesn't overrun the blind.


Still off topic ... Howard can't agree more in Trails and if Ted as a FT Judge gives a hoot or not does not reflect on the original statement regarding HRC Judging philosophy ... A refusal in HRC is a refusal and should recorded as such and the total of the work be judged to meet the standard or not ... unless you expect the person in the chair to be able to interpret intent on the handler's part by distance remaining to the recovery of the blind ... clear and black and white vs ambiguous and grey judgement ... ok I'm done bash away as you deem fit ... back to lurking ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If the dog is within 2-3 feet and you blow that is a conscious decision on the part of the handler and if that whistle is slipped disobedience on the part of the dog. 

I believe that most HRC Judges would mark on their sheet "DAHW" (DumbArse handler whistle)

JMHO


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

bruce said:


> Still off topic ... Howard can't agree more in Trails and if Ted as a FT Judge gives a hoot or not does not reflect on the original statement regarding HRC Judging philosophy ... A refusal in HRC is a refusal and should recorded as such and the total of the work be judged to meet the standard or not ... unless you expect the person in the chair to be able to interpret intent on the handler's part by distance remaining to the recovery of the blind ... clear and black and white vs ambiguous and grey judgement ... ok I'm done bash away as you deem fit ... back to lurking ...



It is so insignificant as to be meaningless to me. There are far more important matters to review.


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

Gooser Get's it ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dennis said originally

PS. I disagree with the philosphy of some HRC judges that penalize a dog on a blind for smelling the bird and going to it even if it is only 2-3 feet. That is not hunting up the bird, that is putting the dog where he can scoop up the bird in a few feet. 

So,,remember the dog has winded the bird,, for a handler to blow a whistle at that point is time is a silly manuver,, and MOST HRC judges will ignor the whistle ,,and NOT penalize the dog They Frankly "dont give a Damn"


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

It is off topic,, but If you are under judgement,, and you have run the blind,, and done a respected job of keeping the dog online,, and attacking the factors,, and you also, have put the dog in a position to wind the bird, and the dog winds that bird 50 yrds away, because of a wind shift,,Is the blind over at that point?

I guess its still knda on topic if ya consider that most have said Wind being the top choice of factors.
Gooser


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Dennis said originally
> 
> PS. I disagree with the philosphy of some HRC judges that penalize a dog on a blind for smelling the bird and going to it even if it is only 2-3 feet. That is not hunting up the bird, that is putting the dog where he can scoop up the bird in a few feet.
> 
> So,,remember the dog has winded the bird,, for a handler to blow a whistle at that point is time is a silly manuver,, and MOST HRC judges will ignor the whistle ,,and NOT penalize the dog They Frankly "dont give a Damn"


Still gets a WR in my book ... doubt if it would be the deciding factor changing a pass to marginal or marginal to fail but it could ... I've never droped a dog for slipping the whistle at the pole but have always written it down ... :razz:


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

Now back on topic wind is the primary factor impacting dog performance in my view ... so I vote WIND


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> ALWAYS play the WIND!
> 
> *Push will affect hunting in the area of the fall even at short distances. Will your dog hunt into the wind when he is in the area of the fall? Thorw lots of marks angled into the wind.
> 
> ...


This is one of my pet peeves, throwing memory marks in training with the wind. Never say never, but I try very hard to never throw a memory mark with the wind, always into the wind. A dog can naturally fade with the wind, why reinforce this? We all do things differently but throwing long memory marks with the wind I feel is contrary to all age training. I'm not saying there is no good AA test with a money bird thrown with the wind because there is with good bird placement and other factors but I'll play the percentages. Dennis gave an outstanding training tip, lots of angle back throws into the wind, lots, and lots of them. I dont believe a dog can get enough of them in his life time! And FWIW, in training put your most experienced thrower on that long into the wind bird so the handler has the correct help when he needs it! To expound on the "wind gallery" what's the most difficult wind direction for a dog to negotiate on a mark?


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

I am going to go out on a limb and choose visual factors followed by scent factors then physical factors. I am sure there are many more, but these are my top three.

I say visual is the primary factor because it can effect a dog on a retrieve way before it gets into the scent of the fall. The visual factors I am thinking of is an angle entry into water, bog swims, fallen trees, dark cover, etc. I feel these factors have a larger impact early in the retrieve than wind or terrain. In addition, I feel retrievers run based on visual marking and memory and use scent to pinpoint the bird at close range.

I feel wind is second due to the fact it can give away a mark from a long distance or hide a mark from close distances. In addition, it can cause a dog to fade, not take cast, etc.

I feel physical factors such as hills is a third in my book. Fading down a side hill or squaring up a hill can cause big problems as well.

Any one of these and other factors can change in the order of importance based on the actual retrieve and timing through the day. Sometimes sunlight changes and makes a retrieve easier or harder at certain parts of the day. Sometimes it's wind changes that do the same.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

cpmm665 said:


> I'm working on a 30-40 minute presentation to offer at a Club meeting. The topic will be "How Factors Effect Dogs (terrain, cover, wind, lighting). Rather than simply regurgitate material already on the market, I've decided to draw on the wisdom and experiences of this forum for ideas. I'm undecided if I'll do this via power point or lecture and white board. For formalities sake, let's assume my audience has all followed a dedicated training program and has dogs ready to do AKC Master level work. What advice would you offer the group as to how factors effect dogs? If you were asked to speak on only one factor(terrain, cover, wind, lighting) and emphasize the most important thing to be aware of as a Handler, what would it be?


Cindy,

Is voting on favorite factors what you were after?

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Dennis said originally
> 
> PS. I disagree with the philosphy of some HRC judges that penalize a dog on a blind for smelling the bird and going to it even if it is only 2-3 feet. That is not hunting up the bird, that is putting the dog where he can scoop up the bird in a few feet.
> 
> So,,remember the dog has winded the bird,, for a handler to blow a whistle at that point is time is a silly manuver,, and MOST HRC judges will ignor the whistle ,,and NOT penalize the dog They Frankly "dont give a Damn"


What does the dog do out in a real hunting scenario? He probably winds the bird.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> This is a good question albeit off the thread topic! When I judgeg I really pay attention and record where the do started his hunt. That is where the dog first thought the bird was. After that is all about how well he hunts it up.
> 
> On a mark where a dog is running past and smells a bird, I mark where the dog first smelled the bird as where he started his hunt!! Then he works out how to get the bird.* If the dog smelled the bird two feet away, he obviously was very close to the bird. If he smelled it 50 yards away*, he was not so close and is scored accordingly. So if the dog was out of the area of what I consider the fall and smelled the bird, of course he would not score as well. But I do not penalize the dog for smelling the bird-as I said that is why they have noses!!!
> 
> ...



Thanks for they reply ...I agree with your thoughts..Record where the dog started it's hunt....On a blind 2-3 feet downwind is a good spot to be ...As you said put the dog in a spot they can use their nose....As far as a whistle after the dog has shown they know where the bird is unneeded...Some times a handler blows just as the dog indicates and the sound probably doesn't arrive until the dog has the bird....I believe anytime you talk about the wind being a factor of influence it goes in the direction of how much is allowed by the judges and how tight should the handler play the line on a blind....Steve S


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> ....On a blind 2-3 feet downwind is a good spot to be ...


Continuing off topic for a moment if I may

Yes. If the dog were inside the corridor to the blind when it winded the bird, the fact that it had winded the bird would be a moot point to me......
But ,If the dog were outside the "corridor" to the blind, and in spite of the considerable efforts by the handler to the contrary (many casts); or, no effort by the handler by electing to let the dog wind the bird from_ well downwind _, these facts would be reflected negatively in how the dog was scored ...

On a mark winding a bird from *inside *the AOF is a good thing in my estimation, and not to do so from the downwind side, if it happened repeatedly, could possibly call the dogs nose into question. 

A wind save from *a hunt *outside the AOF would be an entirely different matter.

john


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