# saving the runt of the litter



## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

Anyone have experience with the mother shunning one of her pups and trying to keep the pup alive? I've heard how the mother can tell if somethings wrong and she'll just set it away from the rest of the litter. but this one just seems to be more of a runt than the rest. when i try to set her up to nurse with the rest she tries to nudge her way up there, but can't compete with the bigger pups. Any ideas/advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

I see from the other post these pups are just whelped today.. Have you check the roof of the mouth on the little one to make sure there is no cleft palate? This will prevent her from latching on? Also, the female can sense if the body temp is a bit lower on that pup. 

Is this your first whelping experience? Is the whelping area being kept at the adequate temp?

If the pup is slightly chilled, it's important to not warm the pup too quickly. A chilled pup will not want to nurse. I warm my smaller pups by putting them in a washcloth and slipping them against my chest. Once they get squirmy then I immediately take them back and ensure they are nursing.

Is the pup squirmy or listless when you pick it up? Watch for raspy sound or bubbles coming out the nose. That's not a good sign.


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## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

they're 1-2 hours old now


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

Pull the other puppies off for a bit and give her some alone time at the bar.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

Make sure the pup is latched onto the nipple. You might initially have to do that for the pup. And make sure the pup gets one of the big back teats. To latch on the pup, take the pup and gently open the jaws up by putting thumb in one corner and index in the other. Just enough to slip in the nipple. Hold the pup on the nipple until the pup begins to suck and gets latched on. With the runt you will have to make sure it does not get pushed off the nipple. You may have to reattach the pup. And make sure the runt gets one of the good teats in the back. Easier for the pup to get milk from.


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## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

is it alright to separate the rest of them from her this early? i just checked on them and she had them all lined up under her, even the runt was up there towards the front. I'm not sure if she was actually latched on and nursing, but I didn't want to disturb them.


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

If the puppy is too cool it will not digest the milk if it eats. Try putting the puppy inside your shirt and getting it warm first. Then get it up to the milk bar unhamppered by siblings.


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

brett k. said:


> is it alright to separate the rest of them from her this early? i just checked on them and she had them all lined up under her, even the runt was up there towards the front. I'm not sure if she was actually latched on and nursing, but I didn't want to disturb them.


You don't have to remove the other puppies. Simple, use your hands to give it some space. If the dam is not pushing it away let it stay there. Now it is sometimes good for a puppy to feel siblings busy on each side. You will be amazed at a runt's abililty to burrow in and under to get in to the food supply if it is strong. Play it by ear if the dam is taking care of it. Just check to see if the puppy is getting dehydrated ( spell ? ). Check fairly often. A well hydrated puppy's skin will be elastic and return to it's body when gently pinched up. If it stays pinched up the puppy isn't well hydrated. Other posts have good info.


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## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

Second whelping experience. the first time around, she rejected one, but he was listless. have not checked the roof of the mouth, she was fairly squirmy when i picked her up. the whelping box is fairly warm, even have a heat lamp over it just to be sure.




frontier said:


> I see from the other post these pups are just whelped today.. Have you check the roof of the mouth on the little one to make sure there is no cleft palate? This will prevent her from latching on? Also, the female can sense if the body temp is a bit lower on that pup.
> 
> Is this your first whelping experience? Is the whelping area being kept at the adequate temp?
> 
> ...


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Its hard to do but give her as much time as possible on there. If shes reluctant , you'll have to work at it, squirt some milk onto her nose,and hold her by the nipple.
If she gets to where she knows how to do it, and all else seems ok just that she doesnt get enough- put her there as often as possible, move a bigger stronger pup off if you have to but be sure she gets extra times on the nipple. Mine are 4 days old now- and my little girl is catching up. I go in there and if shes not on a nipple already I put her on one. When mom comes in from outside, you can lay her on a rug outside the box by herself and let the little girl on there w/o the others so she gets ample milk.
Its worth it to save them-and oh what a feeling.


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## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

she had them all huddled up to her, I worked with the lil guy for a while getting him on a nipple and working with him on that he seemed to be sucking a little and would paw at maggie a little, but if I'd let go he's fall off the nipple and need help getting back on. He did feel a touch cooler than the rest of them, but i figured if maggie wants him right in there with the rest of them her body heat would help warm him just as much as mine, and i turned the heat up too. She really hasn't sorted him off from the rest like she did the last time, so I'm holding out hope. Going to be up for a while tonight! Thanks everyone for all the help and advice.


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## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

Just checked on them again and everyone was pretty active, and crawling around on the top of the pile, was the little guy! So hopefully he keeps getting stronger and stronger.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Thats a good sign.
I used to do the heat lamp ,but found that moms would get way too hot, and end up digging up the box and covering up pups. I went to just putting a heating pad in one corner of hte box( my box is in the house though so its not cold anyway).
The pups learn soon whre the box is- if mom's out of the box and I see them huddled together,or if someone is out of the area, I put them on the heat pad. They soon learn where to go if they get cold. 
Just keep an eye on that little fellow, and put him on as often as possible if he is smaller. He needs to get his strength up so that he can hold on when the others knock into him. Its work for a few days!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I used to do the heat lamp ,but found that moms would get way too hot,


I used a heat lamp with the first litter for the first night. Never again! Mom got out of the box and the less than 24 hour old pups were scattered out in the box with their tongues hanging out. I felt like such a heel.


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## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

I've got it up a little, just over the edge of the box, its not a real intense one. just keeps it a little warmer. the pups still all huddle together right next to mama. I just got done workin with the little guy. this time he got some alone time with Maggie and once I got him latched on he stayed on pretty well. He stuck with it and got a good 10 minutes or better of nursing in.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I do not use heating lamps for the reasons others have given here. I use heating pads. About 3 years ago I got a tip on RTF about the best heating pad to buy. You want one that will not automatically shut off. And one that has a LOW setting. 

I ordered Sunbeam Model 732-5. It's 12" x 24" -- a good size for a 6-7 puppy litter. We had 12 puppies so I ordered two heating pads from AMAZON.COM. They come with a soft cover. In addition to the cover, I slipped them into pillow cases and then wrapped towels around them. Puppies pee a lot so you need the pillow cases and the towels. 

This pad has 3 settings -- low, med, and high. I kept the pads on the low setting. Puppies were fed in shifts. When not on Mom, those puppies were in a laundry basket with a heating pad. 

You do have to make sure puppies are warm. Mom will get up and move away or leave the whelping box completely. When mom is gone, the puppies can get cold. If that happens, you can lose them which is why I use heating pads. 

I also have a husband who sleeps on the floor in a sleeping bag next to the whelping box for the first week. He doesn't get much sleep because he is checking on puppies all during the night. I take over early in the morning and do the day shift.

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

A local Thrift Store is a great source for pillow cases, towels and bedding. I buy a set of pillow cases for 50 cents or less and towels for 25-50 cents each. Twin size quilt-type coverlets are $3. Coverlets make great whelping box bedding. I have at least 4 on hand for a new litter. 

Helen


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## kims (Jan 9, 2010)

Glad to hear the little dude is doing better. I had one very experienced breeder tell me to put the smaller pups that needed more milk on the lower teats as they generally let down the most milk the fastest.( rather than the ones close to the Mama's head). My girl had 10 pups.. 9 teats and I had to do some rotation the first week or so with the smaller ones to make sure the big pigs did not get all the best stuff. ( Not sure if it is an old Wives tale... but since I am an old wife.. it worked for us.)


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

You've gotten a bunch of good advice and it sounds like you had some success getting the little guy to nurse successfully. I usually weigh the pups daily at first to make sure they are all gaining. 

Your experience reminds me of our first dog, Nugget. She was a terrific mother. She had a large litter once. 13 pups, but the last one was still born. The one born right before her would have been still born also, but I got it to breath and stimulated it. The rest of the litter weighed between 14-18 ozs each, but this little guy was 8 ozs and the little girl that didn't make it was 6 ozs. after I got the little guy going I put all the rest of the pups in a laundry basket with a heating pad on low and put him on a good nipple for his first meal and all was good. 

I don't think he would have made it though, if not for Nugget. She didn't like to expose her belly ever so she dealt with large litters by dividing the pups in the whelping area, and sleeping diagonally to keep them separated. In this case, When I went in to check the pups that first morning after a long night of whelping, there were five pups on one side and six on the other...I couldn't see the little guy! When I spoke to Nugget she lifted her head and there tucked in the crook of her front leg and under her muzzle was the little guy, fast asleep. Then I saw her wake him up and push him down to the good part of the breakfast bar before the other puppies woke up. 

I was always amazed at her instincts. She seemed to sense that he needed extra warmth and While keepingt him tucked under her muzzle for 2 weeks, she was breathing her warm moist air on him, like a premie in an incubator. 

This pup was totally normal but was behind the litter, much like a premature baby for the first part of it's life. At 7 weeks he was still half the saze of the rest of the litter but perfect in every way. Everyone was initially drawn to him but would choose a different pup to go home with. We kept him til he was 3 or 4 months old and got a call from someone who had looked at the litter initially but timing wasn't right. They came by and looked at him and decided he was right for them. Tango grew up to be a beautiful 85 lb dog. He was a natural hunter, so with very little training began hunting beside his owner who was an avid, you might say "rabid" hunter. 

Saving the little bitty ones is very rewarding especially when it turns out so well.

Good luck with your little guy, May he grow big and strong and make you proud.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Just to say. I know of two different breeders last year who had a buyer call and specifically ask if the runt was a female and if so they'd be there TODAY to pick it up. I thought that was an odd request the first litter. Then a completely separate breeder had the same kind of request. Still haven't figured that out yet
Is the Runt a Female? I'll take it.....hmmm


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's important to have a material under the pups that the small ones can get their claws into to push up to mom and not slip or they won't get in to nurse. I have pads which I wash, but a rug will do, remnants work if you can hose them off. I do one big piece rather than a bunch of towels because they can so easily crawl under and can't get out.

You can get a can of goat milk and infant nursing bottle with a premie nipple and offer him some milk once inawhile until he gets going.


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

I had a runt that did not start off as the runt. 13 pups total, she was fine the first day, on the second day she crawled away from mom and would not nurse, She was very cold in a 90+ degree area. We tried to warm her to no avail, we wound up at the emergency vet. They got her warmed up and nursing and we had to bottle feed (goats milk,karo,yogurt and some other stuff the mixture was around 11 cals compared to the canned stuff that is 1-4 cals) her to due to being so much smaller bu this point. This pup refused to stay near anything warm, warm saline bags, heating pads anything. She was trying to fight us to keep her alive. A week of bottle feeding and seperate time with mom got her back on the right track. When she went home she was around 6 pounds the rest of the pups were around 10-12. She was the biggest pain in the &^% of the litter, she exuded dominace on the other 12 pups. She took no crap from anyone. I think she had a god complex that she looked death in the eye and kicked its butt. She is Almost a year now and doing very well at around 65lbs. It was very worth it to save her. We almost kept her because of the bonding we did with that pup. She was a fighter for sure.

On a side note she was also requested specifically by someone because she was a female and the runt.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

brett k. said:


> Second whelping experience. the first time around, she rejected one, but he was listless. have not checked the roof of the mouth, she was fairly squirmy when i picked her up. the whelping box is fairly warm, even have a heat lamp over it just to be sure.


like others have mentioned, if you use a heat lamp, you must have it positioned high enough and over one corner only... you have to leave room for the dam to be able to be away from the lamp and lay in the cooler side of the box. Not knowing where your whelping box is and how the temp is in the rest of the room makes it a challenge to give advice.

I have converted a bedroom in my home to my puppy room and the temp is very stable with few fluctuations.. I normally only need the heat lamp on at night after the first few days, and when I turn the entire house down to 65 degrees....and when I raise the thermostat for the rest of the house, the heat lamp is normally not required. But my whelping box (Dura whelp) is large enough that the dam can lay comfortably out of the area of the light. The clue is if the pups are piling and crying they may be stressed or cold if the dam is out of the box. For the first few days if the dam is not wanting to stay with the pups that is unusual.. Like Howard mentioned, if the pups are sprawled out everywhere and on their backs with their mouths open, and mom is not staying in the box, it is probably too warm. I like pups piled evenly up near Dam or just next to each other touching. I keep a cheap thermometer in the room and 2-3 times per day put it under the lamp side of the box and over on the other side to monitor the temp, and then remove it. I like it 80 degrees in one corner, and between 70-75 degrees in the other corner and the floor temp the first couple weeks. When the pups can regulate their own body temps at 2-3 weeks, no supplement heat is needed (at least in my situation) since my puppy room is part of my home and temperature controlled.


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

For your next litter I would highly recommend the Scott Whelping Nest. Keeps the puppies at a safe temperature (around 97-98 F but you can adjust), easy to clean, and lasts a long time. Mine is about 11 years old and works great. Worth it's weight in gold for the first 10 days or so, and especially useful during the first several days. The puppies just gravitate to it. Here's the link.
http://www.scottsdog.com/thewhne.html


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

Rip Shively said:


> For your next litter I would highly recommend the Scott Whelping Nest. Keeps the puppies at a safe temperature (around 97-98 F but you can adjust), easy to clean, and lasts a long time. Mine is about 11 years old and works great. Worth it's weight in gold for the first 10 days or so, and especially useful during the first several days. The puppies just gravitate to it. Here's the link.
> http://www.scottsdog.com/thewhne.html


I have seen those advertised before and they look and sound like they would be great. We learned about the metal heat pads that Bass Equipment sold first and we bought some of those. They need padding on them of course. 
We use corduroy over a firm base to help weak puppies get a good footing. 
Of course you need more than one of these pillow case like covers plus the padding inside to keep thing clean. I made our corduroy covers the size that would fit our breed's whelping box. Heat pad went at one end of the bed box under everything else. I like the all cotton corduroy for this use. It can often be found on clearance in the Spring.


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

Rip Shively said:


> For your next litter I would highly recommend the Scott Whelping Nest. Keeps the puppies at a safe temperature (around 97-98 F but you can adjust), easy to clean, and lasts a long time. Mine is about 11 years old and works great. Worth it's weight in gold for the first 10 days or so, and especially useful during the first several days. The puppies just gravitate to it. Here's the link.
> http://www.scottsdog.com/thewhne.html


Rip, looking at the picture in that link, that nest looks pretty full with just seven pups. Do you just use the one (and they all pile on)? Or do you use two in the whelping box?


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## brett k. (Mar 15, 2006)

Last night he was up to the milk bar and nursing all on his own, seemed to be doing pretty well. We took them to the vet to get their dewclaws removed, and litterally about an hour later he was dead. Not sure if there was something wrong all along and the little guy just couldn't make it any longer or maybe the stress at the vet's office. So we've had a bit of a dissappointing day.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Bummer! So sorry to hear that.


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

Sorry to hear of the loss of that little guy. Sometimes they just don't make it. Nothing we can do will save them.


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

Oh no...I am so sorry to hear that. I was hoping that little one was going to make it.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

In the past, in our 2 puppy rooms, we have a heater in each room. They are Varnado AVH2 circulating heaters and they UNIFORMALLY heat each room. They are thermastacially regulated and keep the room at a uniform heat. If you set the marker on 75 degrees the whole room will be maintained at that temp. They cost $100 each, but has been the best heat source I have found.Bill (Formally Gator Point Kennel)


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> You've gotten a bunch of good advice and it sounds like you had some success getting the little guy to nurse successfully. I usually weigh the pups daily at first to make sure they are all gaining.
> 
> Your experience reminds me of our first dog, Nugget. She was a terrific mother. She had a large litter once. 13 pups, but the last one was still born. The one born right before her would have been still born also, but I got it to breath and stimulated it. The rest of the litter weighed between 14-18 ozs each, but this little guy was 8 ozs and the little girl that didn't make it was 6 ozs. after I got the little guy going I put all the rest of the pups in a laundry basket with a heating pad on low and put him on a good nipple for his first meal and all was good.
> 
> ...


Very interesting your story here. Do you think there is at all a possibility that the normal pups could have come from the first mating of the litter, and the latter smaller ones from the mid-to-last tie? 

The reason I ask.....I have a similar experience going now. Very experienced female(great mom) whelped a litter of pups a couple weeks ago. 5 pups born normal size, and another 4 about half the size of the others. 2 were stillborn, and the other two were born alive. Lots of time spent with them, both doing very well now. Ylw one is still about 1/2 size, blk one is nearly caught up with the rest. Normally wouldn't think much about it, but I happened to think that the female had a weird cycle. Came in heat, took a breeding just fine, but then wouldn't take again for a week. Then again was receptive for the remainder of her cycle.(In house, natural breeding, very experience stud, no progesterone) I took the due date from the time of the 1st, 2nd breeding(a week after the very first) and they were born exactly 63 days later on the dot. So putting two and two together, _Is there a possibility that the smaller pups could be from the 2nd breedings?_


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Very interesting your story here. Do you think there is at all a possibility that the normal pups could have come from the first mating of the litter, and the latter smaller ones from the mid-to-last tie?
> 
> So putting two and two together, _Is there a possibility that the smaller pups could be from the 2nd breedings?_


That's my guess. I know some people breed every two days. We try to stagger the ties (morning, then next day morning or night). We don't like the breedings to be more than a day apart as we are hoping for a uniformly sized litter. Helen


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Ovulation occurs over a period of 24 hours and it takes 48 hours for the eggs to mature. It probably has more to do with placement in the uterus and the condition of both horns than the timing of the ties. Pups don't grow twice their size in a couple of days.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> if you use a heat lamp, you must have it positioned high enough and over one corner only... you have to leave room for the dam to be able to be away from the lamp and lay in the cooler side of the box.


I use just an incandescent 60-watt bulb in one of those inexpensive clip-on lamps. I clip it to the box, whose sides are 3 ft high. 

Since the whelping box is in the house, this gives just enough extra warmth for winter litters. I'll be very disappointed when we can't buy old-fashioned lightbulbs anymore :-(

When I'm cleaning out the box, I make hotwater bottles from ziplok bags & wrap them in towels; place pups on these in a cardboard box & place another towel loosely over the top to keep the heat in ... leaving a little space for air to circulate.

If I were taking pups to vet for dewclaws, I would use the hot water bottle set-up as well. But I don't do them anymore.

I use the same set-up with two cardboard boxes to set pups aside while whelping is going on. I have two boxes, so that one of them always has warm "hotwater bottles" in it. There are also some ready-made products you can buy that are cloth bags filled with rice. They go in the microwave and can stay warm longer than the makeshift water bottles I use. 

Caution against using "real" hot water bottles. I use only water that is hottest from my faucet (hotwater heater set at about 122 deg). Heard of someone who heated puppies to death by using water that was too hot in real hot water bottles.


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

brett k. said:


> Last night he was up to the milk bar and nursing all on his own, seemed to be doing pretty well. We took them to the vet to get their dewclaws removed, and litterally about an hour later he was dead. Not sure if there was something wrong all along and the little guy just couldn't make it any longer or maybe the stress at the vet's office. So we've had a bit of a dissappointing day.


We have had that happen twice. I think maybe in those cases the puppy wasn't completely healthy and the stress of the vet trip was too much.

I am sorry for your loss, it is hard to handle.

lesa c


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Very interesting your story here. Do you think there is at all a possibility that the normal pups could have come from the first mating of the litter, and the latter smaller ones from the mid-to-last tie?
> 
> The reason I ask.....I have a similar experience going now. Very experienced female(great mom) whelped a litter of pups a couple weeks ago. 5 pups born normal size, and another 4 about half the size of the others. 2 were stillborn, and the other two were born alive. Lots of time spent with them, both doing very well now. Ylw one is still about 1/2 size, blk one is nearly caught up with the rest. Normally wouldn't think much about it, but I happened to think that the female had a weird cycle. Came in heat, took a breeding just fine, but then wouldn't take again for a week. Then again was receptive for the remainder of her cycle.(In house, natural breeding, very experience stud, no progesterone) I took the due date from the time of the 1st, 2nd breeding(a week after the very first) and they were born exactly 63 days later on the dot. So putting two and two together, _Is there a possibility that the smaller pups could be from the 2nd breedings?_


I don't really know. Could be that or could be position in the uterus and large number of pups (13), just no way for me to know. He did appear premie like, born with very little hair on his legs and perfect in every way except for being tiny.The Natural ties in our case were accoplished on day one of being receptive, day two, and then the stud owner skipped a day and bred again on day 4. Pups were born close to 63 days after the first breeding, if my memory is serving me correctly...but then it has be 13 or 14 years ago that this happened.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

brett k. said:


> Last night he was up to the milk bar and nursing all on his own, seemed to be doing pretty well. We took them to the vet to get their dewclaws removed, and litterally about an hour later he was dead. Not sure if there was something wrong all along and the little guy just couldn't make it any longer or maybe the stress at the vet's office. So we've had a bit of a dissappointing day.


So sorry that you lost the little guy!


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

Ron

I have only used one at a time although I have heard of folks using two for really large litters (12+ puppies). I had one litter with 11 puppies and all fit when they were a few days old. After the first week, the pan fills up but by that age they start to 'dog pile' on each other and seem to be fine. To me where they are really worth it are when puppies are being whelped and in that first week. Those that have been born and had their initial nursing can be set in the nest and they settle down and are kept warm while others are being born. During that first week when they are crawling around the box they just seem to seek out the nest and stay very warm. I still keep the room heated but the temperature control unit is reliable and constant. 
Hope this helps.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

helencalif said:


> That's my guess. I know some people breed every two days. We try to stagger the ties (morning, then next day morning or night). We don't like the breedings to be more than a day apart as we are hoping for a uniformly sized litter. Helen


I assume with your breedings, Helen, that you are doing progesterone. Most people I find that skip a day aren't doing a progesterone, or did one early before it reached 5, and they don't repeat, they just guesstimate. So, they are going for greater coverage. Although Terry R. with Meet Joe Black kept his stats on one-tie breedings with progesterones - bred two days after reaching 5; he was getting 8-9 pup litters consistently. 

One of my reproduction vets states that they aren't sure why, but purportedly they get more pups with fresh chilled using two inseminations. Typically sent and inseminated like Helen suggests.

Peoples beliefs about this vary widely.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

brett k. said:


> Last night he was up to the milk bar and nursing all on his own, seemed to be doing pretty well. We took them to the vet to get their dewclaws removed, and litterally about an hour later he was dead. Not sure if there was something wrong all along and the little guy just couldn't make it any longer or maybe the stress at the vet's office. So we've had a bit of a dissappointing day.


Sorry to hear this brett.....


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I have a female who does not fit the norm for breeding going by progesterones to get a large litter. I have read about this. Being bred by the classic 2 and 4 days past ovulation she has 3-5 pups. Then one time she had a cycle that appeared to start on a certain day (she is a house dog when she is not in heat), but on day 6 the boys said she was ready. I went down to do a progesterone figuring she was starting her rise but not ready and she was at 13.4 and because of logistics with the stud, was bred the next day and had 9 pups. The next time she had a more normal cycle and was bred the classic way and had three. I believe Terry had one like that-that bred a week after the progesgterone said she ovulated and there was a big litter. It's something to be aware of. Breeding a bitch over 2 days only does not work for all bitches. Sometimes you want the coverage. Obviously this stud's semen was not holding out long either.


As far as the puppy goes, it is a shock when you lose one like that, but they are not all born perfect. There probably was nothing you could have done.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I have a female who does not fit the norm for breeding going by progesterones to get a large litter. I have read about this. Being bred by the classic 2 and 4 days past ovulation she has 3-5 pups. Then one time she had a cycle that appeared to start on a certain day (she is a house dog when she is not in heat), but on day 6 the boys said she was ready. I went down to do a progesterone figuring she was starting her rise but not ready and she was at 13.4 and because of logistics with the stud, was bred the next day and had 9 pups. The next time she had a more normal cycle and was bred the classic way and had three. I believe Terry had one like that-that bred a week after the progesgterone said she ovulated and there was a big litter. It's something to be aware of. Breeding a bitch over 2 days only does not work for all bitches. Sometimes you want the coverage.


sounds like you were using the in-house lab test..... ;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> sounds like you were using the in-house lab test..... ;-)


 No Susan, all progesterones were quantitative in house progesterones. Granted, sometimes they are off a little, but I believe I had multiple progesterones and they whelped on time except for the first one which was a c-section. She is just different. I am going to have a different game plan next time. Terry's were also in house quantitative. I remember him writing me. In fact, I think that the bitch owner was a vet. I have seen it happen several times. According to the study I read, some bitches just need to be at 15 or higher when they are bred.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> No Susan, all progesterones were quantitative in house progesterones. Granted, sometimes they are off a little, but I believe I had multiple progesterones and they whelped on time except for the first one which was a c-section. She is just different. I am going to have a different game plan next time. Terry's were also in house quantitative. I remember him writing me. In fact, I think that the bitch owner was a vet. I have seen it happen several times. According to the study I read, some bitches just need to be at 15 or higher when they are bred.


 
Uhhhh ... Nancy. I was kidding you. You said


> but on day 6 the boys said she was ready...


The stats I have from Terry were more than one bitch... they are about the last year of Joe's breedings... 

Very interesting stuff. You can always have the one that doesn't fit within the norm, and that's why there's an art to this stuff they deem "science."


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

In the old days pre-progesterone, we went by the studs and targeted certain days, but I think through the use of progesterones, we are able to breed bitches that came up empty before, but there are still outliers, or maybe _liars_ that are a challenge. Maybe this one needs a fertility dance.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I have a bitch that never read the Canine Reproductive Handbook, too. Every time we tried to breed her using progesterone testing, she missed. Took her to one of Nancy's boys for live cover, no progesterone, and she had ten healthy puppies...at eight and a half years old.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> I have a bitch that never read the Canine Reproductive Handbook, too. Every time we tried to breed her using progesterone testing, she missed. Took her to one of Nancy's boys for live cover, no progesterone, and she had ten healthy puppies...at eight and a half years old.


Ben hasn't read the stud book. He's Mr where there is a will there is a way. With my own females he has bred them at 1.4 when I'm told he shouldn't be able to, and a week after their optimum period. They have to be kept trim to do that because they have to be able to get that hip action going.


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> I don't really know. Could be that or could be position in the uterus and large number of pups (13), just no way for me to know. He did appear premie like, born with very little hair on his legs and perfect in every way except for being tiny.The Natural ties in our case were accoplished on day one of being receptive, day two, and then the stud owner skipped a day and bred again on day 4. Pups were born close to 63 days after the first breeding, if my memory is serving me correctly...but then it has be 13 or 14 years ago that this happened.


We had a similar experience with a litter about a year ago. The litter was born on day 57 after the only tie. We had 9 pups, all fairly small. Seems like the largest one was only 10 ounces. We had one little tiny girl that only weighed 4.5 ounces. Didn't think she had a snowball's chance in hell of making it. Her hair was very thin on her head and legs. She just LOOKED premature. The litter was in the house. We kept her warm and made sure she was nursing often. She was strong just so tiny didn't take much for her to get full. Little bit made it though. Was about half the size of the rest of the litter all along and did everything a couple of days after the rest of them - opening her eyes and walking and such. She was completely spoiled because she was so darn cute. Turned out normal size for this dam's female pups. About 50 pounds now. We see her every now and then and she's perfectly normal. Still spoiled though;-).


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> They have to be kept trim to do that because they have to be able to get that hip action going.


They say that about people too, but they still breed. I keep the dogs trim because it's healthier for them period.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I've lost them from big litters. Perhaps their liver isn't fully developed or something.

You did what you could, but Mother Nature said something wasn't right. Worry about the healthy ones.

And my been there. done that best wishes.


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

Just a little side note. A long time breeder with experience in more than one breed ( small dogs though ) told me that the puppies who are premature have a sticky feel to them.


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