# 2 year old OFA/Dew Claw removal



## blakegober (Apr 16, 2008)

I have a 2 year old that I am getting OFA'ed next week, He still has his dew claws b/c the breeder did not remove them. I hunt him a lot and I am afraid he may tear them one day. He has torn the nail pretty good in the last year a few times. Since he will be "under" for the x-rays anyways I thought about getting them removed. Is it worth it? I don't want to do it if the recovery from the surgery is worse than the risk of tearing them up out in the field. so has anyone done this before. the vet said it would cost about $100 to get it done since he will already be asleep. any options are welcomed. I am leaning towards getting it done, unless the surgery is hard for a 2 year old dog to get over. How serious of a procedure is it for a fully developed dew claw?


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

It is a lot harder to do it when they are older. A lot more involved in it. They will have to dig out the joint to make sure it doesn't grow back and the recovery time will set you back a little while for training. I have heard that it is such a pain when they are older. I personally would not do it on an older dog. But that is just me.


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

We had the procedure done our female at 12 weeks. They were done by the breeder, they just grew back. The vet perscribed antibiotics, pain medicine, wrapped the legs and put a cone on her. Personally, I would do it because I have seen the cons of not having them removed but don't have experience with that age. I would ask your vet all the pros and cons then, make your best judgement. It will but some down time in your training though.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

When I worked for my vet, did more than a few adult dogs, was not a big deal, they had to stay inactive til it healed/suture removal, but no long term adverse affects, pain, limping, etc. Like most working dogs, yours will probably be raring to go before the vet gives the all clear. If he's already had problems ripping them and he's going under anyway, I'd go ahead and do it.


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## PridezionLabs (Mar 8, 2009)

Just thought I would share this, I was in the same boat once and really weighed it out,it's a good read.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf


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## traklover (Mar 10, 2008)

PridezionLabs your link didn't work for me.

Getting back to the topic, I decided to get my pups lone dewclaw(it had grown back), removed in Dec when I have xrays taken for PennHip. Had absolutely no problems, she complained when jumping off things for the first day or too (she is a complainer), then everything was fine. I did not really restrict her excerise, just tried to call her in once she had done her business. There was still a lot of playtime with mum. The pup was 10 1/2 months at the time. And no she did not have wear a cone.


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## PridezionLabs (Mar 8, 2009)

I'll try to fix the link, it doesn't work for me either,ugh!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

All you have to do is backup the link to the end of "documents" and it will go to the list of articles, the dewclaw-injury one is posted there among others. It's been posted on this forum several times when it comes to dewclaw removal vs leave on.


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## Britt&Angie S. (Apr 2, 2009)

I had a 2 year old male long ago that had one dew claw that didn't get removed right as a pup and working for the vet i watched the surgery to remove it other than the fact that it bleeds pretty bad it really isn't a major thing to worry about. I think it is a good idea to have them removed our male used to get his caught all the time too!

This would be a perfect time to do it before hunting season unless you are going to run him. It needs at least 2 weeks of non-activity to heal and usually stitches can come out about 7-10 days but he had them in about 14 and we also had to have him wear a e-collar during that time because he wanted to chew the stitches out plus it is in a easy place for them to get to. We also waited an additional week after stitches were out to do any training with to make sure it was good and healed.


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

I had a Lab that had her front dewclaws removed at about 3 years old. No problem. She had her pastern's wrapped covering the stitches and wore a cone for a few days. They heal quite fast. I'd do it.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

PridezionLabs said:


> Just thought I would share this, I was in the same boat once and really weighed it out,it's a good read.
> http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf


That was not exactly a scientific study considering some of the conformationally challenged dogs that are running agility!  What was this dog's pasterns and feet like, I wonder? 

I did my own informal survey amongst several long time lab breeders who remove dews and asked them if they ever saw the arthritis in their performance dogs-- none had. So far, so good for me (my oldest litter is approaching 14, another at 12, and another is 10), so I'm continuing to remove them (just did a litter yesterday!). 

This would be a great forum to ask if someone is talented enough to set up a survey. Anne


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## PridezionLabs (Mar 8, 2009)

windycanyon said:


> That was not exactly a scientific study considering some of the conformationally challenged dogs that are running agility!  What was this dog's pasterns and feet like, I wonder?
> 
> I did my own informal survey amongst several long time lab breeders who remove dews and asked them if they ever saw the arthritis in their performance dogs-- none had. So far, so good for me (my oldest litter is approaching 14, another at 12, and another is 10), so I'm continuing to remove them (just did a litter yesterday!).
> 
> This would be a great forum to ask if someone is talented enough to set up a survey. Anne


It was posted just to give both sides of the coin. I have some great friends who remove them, I don't. In fact I am getting a pup that she has done the dew claws, I wish she hadn't, but, it's her litter and each of us do what we feel best.
I always like to see a post with statements both pro and con. It would be interesting to find out if removing them early affects the development as opposed to removing them later (as the OP has stated) after the pup is a lil older.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

And I think to make it all valid, you need to compare real working dogs, not just pets that are weekend warriors (like Chris did there). Many of the dogs on this forum are working 7 days a week in the field to achieve their SH, MH, and field trial goals. Been there, done that w/ my Rosa who was doing Open agility, SH and tracking all at the same time, after finishing CDX. I was physically exhausted.

I have a 5 yo MACH titled lab, who last I knew was #8 in the country in AKC agility. That'll be a good dog to watch. Mata, my 4 yo mult titled, will be a good one also. Rosa, their mom, was in top shape at 9.5 yrs when I lost her to strychnine poisoning last summer (CDX SH OA OAJ). I think that is the type of info folks need to truly look at, not just how rescue dogs turned agility maniacs on Friday pm hold up. 

And I agree, it is a personal decision. I don't like them, nor do the hunters I deal with. I did have one agility home who expressed interest in a pup but wanted them left on... well, how do you decide at 2 days old, which is going to be their prospect? And to lose your hunting homes if you didn't do the litter? Forget it! Anne


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

I have run FT, HT, agility and obedience with quite a few dogs. I also hunt my Goldens regularly in the fall. They all have dewclaws and I have never had a problem with any of them. They are there for a reason.


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## PridezionLabs (Mar 8, 2009)

windycanyon said:


> And I agree, it is a personal decision. I don't like them, nor do the hunters I deal with. I did have one agility home who expressed interest in a pup but wanted them left on... well, how do you decide at 2 days old, which is going to be their prospect? And to lose your hunting homes if you didn't do the litter? Forget it! Anne


This brings up an interesting question, most of the homes who are going to hunt thier pup usually ask me about dew claws. They assume they need them removed because "so and so, said so". I have never lost a hunting home because of this and here is why I think I don't. First, I tell 'em to do some research BOTH pro and con, I want them to really understand the reason THEY think those dews need to come off. I have worked dogs for a number of years and been around working dogs since I was even younger, yes, there has been cases where the dew claw was torn, and in most of those cases I wonder if it could have been prevented with a lil vet wrap? I dunno, I wasn't there. I have seen dogs with VERY loose,flappy dew claws and I always suggested that they keep the nail short and if they take them out hunting maybe to wrap some vet wrap around them.I do know, that I have never seen one torn, don't personally know of anyone who has had one torn. I am not trying to playdown those that have, I know that NO ONE wants to see their dog get hurt.However, I have seen numerous other field injuries none of which has caused me to alter the physical appearance of any of my dogs. My next statement in written word may come off a lil brutish,(I don't mean for it to) but, folks that want one of my pups can come and evaluate, watch me work the parents and talk to those that hunt my dogs. If it comes down to a "pass" on a pup with a great lil drive because of a dew claw? Well, it was nice meetin' em!


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

My vet said he is only seen a couple dew claws torn in his 30 years of practice and does not know why people insist on removing them as long as they keep them trimmed. I do have them removed at 3 days old but occasionally one grows back and people freak out like the dog is deformed.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2009)

1st retriever said:


> I have heard that it is such a pain when they are older. I personally would not do it on an older dog. But that is just me.


No offense Steph, but you seem to post on every single thread here on RTF regardless of your experience. If none, why post?

Melanie


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

And I read on another forum today several folks wishing their dogs didn't have them. One had just been thru surgery (ripped one). It was a vet's wife that convinced me years ago to keep removing them after their own dog's was ripped up to the elbow, so go figure! Guess we just do what we feel is best and live with it.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

I would prefer dewclaws left on. I have had hunting dogs with and without-never had a problem with the dewclaws on. At 2 years of age, you are amputating a functional toe. If you dog hasn't had a problem with it, leave it alone, and deal with it IF it's ever a problem. My vet agrees with torq's vet, and he sees lots of working dogs.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

mostlygold said:


> They are there for a reason.


 



And what might that be? I see no possible use for a dew claw but I see many possible problems.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2009)

Chris Zink, canine sports medicine consultant:

_In the last several years, while doing sports-medicine consultations for performance dogs across Canada and the United States, I have seen many canine athletes with carpal arthritis. Interestingly, this condition is much more common in dogs that have had their front dewclaws removed._

Link with more info to her opinions on dew claws:

http://blog.tiganagoldens.com/?p=54

Another opinion:

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0019.htm

Other thoughts from the Internet:

_If you watch dogs like racing Greyhounds or other sighthounds lure coursing, you can see them use their dewclaws to dig into the ground when making tight turns. You can also see herding dogs use their dewclaws similarly when making turns to move livestock. However for other dogs such as gun dogs (spaniels, setters, ect) dewclaws can be hazardous on the job so are often removed shortly after birth._


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Just a note about the world of agility...AKC, USDA (even more competitive, techinical..games in addition to regular titles to earn) ..

Serious agility people train nearly every day...often several times a day, if they can. It is a very serious "game"...speed (everything is timed, all obstacles..that includes in training..training for X amount of seconds on say, a dog walk, see saw, weave poles) Everything has to be exactly correct...approaches, entries..contacts must be perfect for safety and per the rules of trial. "Handling"..is a lot of work on the handler's part..it is an art. Communication and team work.. Dogs must learn when to be handler focused and when to be obstacle focused. Weave poles have a style that is best for the dog..to protect the spine, joints etc. 

There is a lot of jumping...singles, doubles, triples...at whatever height the rules require the dog to be jumping in trial. Jump training is not always done at full height...unless a particular dog has a jumping issue that requires it. Regardless...a lot of jump work is done, with turns before and after...etc. 

So...for this type of competition, it is not a bring the dog out Friday night and let the games begin... That would be a very dangerous risk...with injury most likely guaranteed. Serious injury that the dog might have to live with for the rest of it's life..and be sidelined from the game it loves. 

If one would look at movement...resources about the subject, there is evidence that the dew claws play a part..that is important. The dew claw is there for a reason. 

Everyone here does the best that they believe is right for their puppies, dogs etc. Otherwise, this would not be such a hot topic, everytime it is brought up. 

If people remove dew claws, it is not to be mean to puppies..of course not! People that leave them on...have reason to believe they are there for a purpose..not to cause puppies, dogs pain in the future..with dew claw issues. 

Dogs break nails...not just dew claws.. In fact, it might be that the regular nails are more often broken, split.. If one were to do a study (which I am not!!) 

We have two retrievers with dew claws...they are simply kept trimmed and smooth, along with all their toe nails. Use of an electric grinder to smooth all nails is a huge help in keeping things in great shape..no sharp edges, frayed etc..helping to prevent nails from breaking, splitting, tearing etc. 

Our youngest retriever does not have his dew claws. His breeder had them removed.. Do I wish he had them?..yes. 

So..in my experience..LOL ..seriously, as to the original poster...I would just keep the nails trimmed and smooth..including the dew claws. Check once a week for trimming..routine maintenance. If traveling, trialing..you can always use a file to smooth....any nail on the dog's feet, that might need some maintenance. 

Whatever you decide, I am sure is the best decision for your dog!

Judy


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I agree that I'd personally not remove them on an older dog-- just manage the situation w/ regular clipping and dremeling.

Ahhh, but Judy, there is a HUGE percentage of weekend warriors at agility trials too..... Maybe not at the MX/MXJ levels but certainly at the lower levels. My MACH pup owners are stopping in tomorrow, I'll ask their training schedule. I know Mark (owner/handler) works out 2x a day during the week to stay in shape, but I'm not sure they train agility every day. 

Heck, I don't train agility that much myself but take today for instance: Did SH training w/ 2 on my nicely sloping field that makes MY butt sore reloading wingers, blind stakes, etc, and agility weaves (primarily-- combined w/ short jump segments) w/ one of these, Open Obed w/ the other. Novice agility and JH marks w/ another, and puppy field, obed and teaching (open) channel weaves w/ the 4 mo old. I don't call myself a diehard by any stretch, but my dogs aren't weekend warriors either. On their off days, we all take 3 mile walk/romps (offlead) and they swim in quite strong currents in the canal. 

And yes, we've broken nails before--- usually on the rocky banks of the canal which is about the same angle as an A frame, only many times longer!--- right before a trial, why of course!  Not had carpal arthritis yet, though I have had one break a outside toe on the same rocks.  And I keep my dogs' nails dremeled down every 10-14 days!

One friend has a Guide Dog career change dog whose has dews that were irritated quite a lot last winter just in the crusty snow in their backyard and when visiting here. What makes one dog so prone to injury, and others not, I wonder? I don't see that they are unusual in any way-- fairly tight actually. I wonder if dogs' pastern strength has anything to do w/ anything. Anne


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

I can see both sides of the argument. If you keep them trimmed down like you are supposed to with the rest of the nails then there shouldn't be any reason to worry about ripping one of them anymore than ripping a regular nail. After all God put them there for a reason so they do have a purpose!


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> No offense Steph, but you seem to post on every single thread here on RTF regardless of your experience. If none, why post?
> 
> Melanie


Wow! I didn't know it was a crime to post when someone asks for advice! If I didn't know what I was talking about I wouldn't post! That makes three of you who don't like what I say, anyone else? I do like how everyone keeps track of how much I post though! Gives me a warm fuzzy that everyone cares so much! Sorry for the diversion! Back to the thread!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

1st retriever said:


> Wow! I didn't know it was a crime to post when someone asks for advice! If I didn't know what I was talking about I wouldn't post! That makes three of you who don't like what I say, anyone else?


Maybe you could start a poll.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Maybe you could start a poll.


Wow you are hilarious! You take every opportunity to get me don't you? Do you get an alert everytime I post something or what?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

1st retriever said:


> Wow you are hilarious! You take every opportunity to get me don't you? Do you get an alert everytime I post something or what?


I don't have that much time to waste, it would be going off constantly then.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> I don't have that much time to waste, it would be going off constantly then.


Funny you only seem to post if it is an American Idol thread or if you want to start a fight with someone! You seem to waste quite a bit of your day on useless crap! I am not going to help you ruin another thread especially since it didn't involve you to beign with!


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Sorry to get off topic everyone! Rainmaker seems to have a stick stuck somewhere with me!


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Let me play the devil's advocate here. With the username 1st retriever, it should not be a surprise when experienced retriever people question your advice, especially when it is not based on facts.

Sticking with the sky is blue, the kettle is black, and the dog peed on the tree regards,

Becky


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Creek Retrievers said:


> Let me play the devil's advocate here. With the username 1st retriever, it should not be a surprise when experienced retriever people question your advice, especially when it is not based on facts.
> 
> Sticking with the sky is blue, the kettle is black, and the dog peed on the tree regards,
> 
> Becky


Just because it is my 1st retriever does not mean it is my first dog! Retrievers are so much different than any other breed of dog that what works for one breed could not possibly work for another breed or god forbid a mutt! I guess hanging out with dog clubs, dog show people, and vets you just don't learn what all these "pros" know.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

1st retriever said:


> Funny you only seem to post if it is an American Idol thread or if you want to start a fight with someone! You seem to waste quite a bit of your day on useless crap! I am not going to help you ruin another thread especially since it didn't involve you to beign with!


Actually, I did post on this thread about dewclaws, so I don't know why you think it didn't involve me to begin with, not to mention who is keeping track of whose posts, nor do I recollect being the cause of a thread being locked due to my foul language when people disagreed with me, which is more than you can say. As far as wasting my day on useless crap, check out how many dogs I have with actual HT titles, that's what I waste my days doing.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Actually, I did post on this thread about dewclaws, so I don't know why you think it didn't involve me to begin with, not to mention who is keeping track of whose posts, nor do I recollect being the cause of a thread being locked due to my foul language when people disagreed with me, which is more than you can say. As far as wasting my day on useless crap, check out how many dogs I have with actual HT titles, that's what I waste my days doing.


Were you the one who said something to me about the post on this thread? No, so it didn't involve you! You just like to jump in and make it about you! No but you sure helped to get that thread locked didn't you? I don't care how many dogs you have titled! Oddly enough anyone on here can do that! So I wouldn't brag too much! If you don't like what I post then put me on ignore! I am getting tired of you jumping into stuff and making it an argument! Clearly you are a flamer and just like to stir the pot!


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

This kind of whiny high school level bickering is really annoying. Please take it to PM.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2009)

1st retriever said:


> Were you the one who said something to me about the post on this thread?


I think that was me. ;-) Steph, the only reason I brought it up is because you often post on subjects about which you have no knowledge. You even admit that yourself. I don't think that is helpful. I'm sure you know that some folks take Internet advice as gospel. That worries me. That's the only reason I mentioned it.

I think we should all be careful about giving advice and/or recommendations unless we have direct experience with the topic of discussion.

Shayne is the exemption, but it took him a lot of time to earn that status.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Let me play the devil's advocate here. With the username 1st retriever, it should not be a surprise when experienced retriever people question your advice, especially when it is not based on facts.


 
ANNNNND!!!!



> Steph, the only reason I brought it up is because you often post on subjects about which you have no knowledge. You even admit that yourself. I don't think that is helpful. I'm sure you know that some folks take Internet advice as gospel. That worries me. That's the only reason I mentioned it.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> What the HECK do ya'll think when Gooser posts????:shock::shock:
> ...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Actually Gooser, you have posted some good advice to newbys because _it is from your own experience._ You actually work your dogs and pursue titles which you are no doubt very proud of like most of us that earned them, because they don't come as easily as someone who has not earned titles or is not in that pursuit thinks. And unfortunately people do come to the internet for advice because they don't have anyone else they can ask about actual working retriever training, but maybe those people are actually out training at the time, so the computer chair warmers jump on every question. Maybe if they left their chairs and got out and joined a training group they would realize that earning a title is a lot of work, and how there is much more to learn about training a dog for competion or hunting than just obedience.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

windycanyon said:


> I agree that I'd personally not remove them on an older dog-- just manage the situation w/ regular clipping and dremeling.
> 
> Ahhh, but Judy, there is a HUGE percentage of weekend warriors at agility trials too..... Maybe not at the MX/MXJ levels but certainly at the lower levels. My MACH pup owners are stopping in tomorrow, I'll ask their training schedule. I know Mark (owner/handler) works out 2x a day during the week to stay in shape, but I'm not sure they train agility every day.
> 
> ...


Happy training today, Ann! 

It is gorgeous here this AM so we are off to the summer camp and training on the way. The lake is opening up..lots of wind gusts moving the ice along on Friday, so thought we would go up again today..to be sure it did not jam on our dock posts, that we do leave in for the winter (high up on metal posts)..and cause damage. You could hear it breaking and piling up..then big open areas of water appeared. Very cool. The "boys" swam along the edge and had the best time...then we would keep them out for a while while a flow passed by or moved off. Had the place to ourselves..summer people not there yet!!

Anyway...all this awful posting and insulting  each other because a guy asked for some feedback..because he is concerned about his dog. The posts are just thoughts that were not meant to be harmful... Sounds like the guy is seeing his vet for advice, anyway. Wish people would kind of smooth the waters..as it really is hurtful and not a good thing. 

One of our "boys" had a nail split (sheath) enough to warrant a vet visit several years ago. ..or, at least I thought so. He trimmed the thing, checked it carefully....and told me to just keep an eye on it to be sure it grew back nicely...which he totally expected it would. It was worth it to me to have it seen.... 

Ann..on the agility side of things..our instructor for the last two years is Anne Andrle  who is a ton of fun....and quite serious about her own agility! She is a World Team Member..and her students really do train and trial a lot. So, they treat their dogs as athletes..just as we do for field or whatever games we play!

But..she is always so supportive, loves her students and so enjoys their dogs. She is a great Linda Mecklenburg fan, who you might know?, or know of. Anne goes out to train with her quite a bit and has Linda here for workshops and privates! 

Classes start again mid-May at her home here in Maine. Unfortunately, she lost the indoor facility (with great rubber floors, that she uses in winter only) early March due to it being sold...and human sports (without dogs) took the place over. 

The fields are calling us, as usual..though! ..will try to take the lessons and train bits and pieces..for the coming winter season. 

Again..have a great day, enjoyed your post (mutual interests)! 

Judy


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ok back to dew claws.
This is the first time in my life I have ever heard that dew claws actually are a physically functional piece of equipment. I still find it hard to believe that dew claws can work for a dog,I dont care what the dog is doing or what breed it is. All I see from dew claws is trouble unless it is an inactive house pet. I've seen them bleed just walking through a crusty snow.
I believe it's just an unnecessary part of the body that hasnt fully evolved and disappeared. Yes I do believe in evolution. We all come from lower life forms and evidently some of us still havent evolved from that. There ya go, there's another subject to argue about away from the original thread. If you want to argue, argue about the subject. Someone said god put dew claws there for a reason. Well???? Then what do you think about spay and neuter????????????


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

I read something a while ago that said evolution will do away with the littlest toe in humans-you don't really need them to walk properly and most people can't move them much. What if someone decided it was just too difficult to make shoes that didn't create blisters on them all the time, so babies had them removed at birth? Not a perfect example, but...I'd like to keep mine.

There are lots of threads about dewclaw function, so I won't repost all that stuff here. Food for thought-wolves, coyotes and foxes all have dew claws, and they certainly hunt hard in the field. Don't see them lined up at the vet to have them removed.

Taking off dewclaws has been done for so long that it is automatic now-but I think if it were possible to know how many of the dogs without dewclaws would have had a problem with them the percentages would be much, much smaller than people think. 

Spay and neuter is a bit different. It's birth control, which people practice, too.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

On the other hand some dogs have rear dewclaws-rarely in Labs, but I don't know about wolves, but they must have evolved away. If dogs needed them for gripping, it seems to me the rear dewclaws would be more important than front dewclaws. The bottom line is if you have the misfortune to have a dew claw injury or know someone that did in the field, you don't want them on. To many hunters this is a very important issue. I wouldn't have them removed if they were adults. As far as the arthritis issue, I can't think of one dog I've had without dewclaws that has shown me any problems as a senior with their feet.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

pupaloo said:


> I read something a while ago that said evolution will do away with the littlest toe in humans-you don't really need them to walk properly and most people can't move them much. What if someone decided it was just too difficult to make shoes that didn't create blisters on them all the time, so babies had them removed at birth? Not a perfect example, but...I'd like to keep mine.
> 
> There are lots of threads about dewclaw function, so I won't repost all that stuff here. Food for thought-wolves, coyotes and foxes all have dew claws, and they certainly hunt hard in the field. Don't see them lined up at the vet to have them removed.
> 
> ...


 



Also kinda hard to see how many foxes wolves and cyotes have had problems with dew claws. Maybe they would line up at the vet if they could.
I'm all for birth control. In fact I think a lot more people should practice it but is it ok to play god by preventing life but not to improve an existing life by removing a non functioning body part?.
Guess I'll have to do a search on dew claws and try and figure out what good they are.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> Also kinda hard to see how many foxes wolves and cyotes have had problems with dew claws. Maybe they would line up at the vet if they could.
> I'm all for birth control. In fact I think a lot more people should practice it but is it ok to play god by preventing life but not to improve an existing life by removing a non functioning body part?.
> Guess I'll have to do a search on dew claws and try and figure out what good they are.


If dewclaws were a problem for wild canines, natural selection would have gotten rid of them by now. Anyone shot a coyote or a fox with an injured dewclaw?

Do we know that dogs' lives are improved by not having dewclaws? They do function, we're just deciding the function isn't important. 

They are removed because it makes our lives easier. We do lots of things to dogs for that reason, or for "fashion"-tails are docked, ears are cropped...but that doesn't mean it needs to be done for the good of the dog. How many English Pointers do you know whose tails are bloody on the end? I've seen several. Docking their tails would keep that from happening-and save lots of pain for the dog and time trying to get them healed up by the owners-but they wouldn't look stylish on point with a shorter tail...


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

ErinsEdge said:


> On the other hand some dogs have rear dewclaws-rarely in Labs, but I don't know about wolves, but they must have evolved away. If dogs needed them for gripping, it seems to me the rear dewclaws would be more important than front dewclaws. The bottom line is if you have the misfortune to have a dew claw injury or know someone that did in the field, you don't want them on. To many hunters this is a very important issue. I wouldn't have them removed if they were adults. As far as the arthritis issue, I can't think of one dog I've had without dewclaws that has shown me any problems as a senior with their feet.


I've never seen a rear dewclaw that has a bone attaching it to the foot-they have all been the first joint of the toe with the nail attached only by skin. Many dogs are born without them. Mother nature is obviously phasing out rear dewclaws...

Dogs use them for gripping-both holding things in their paws and climbing up a hill. They also use them for digging-not such a good thing for us most of the time! 

I don't know if I believe the arthritis thing either-not sure you could say it was because of no dewclaw and not from a lifetime of hard use in a working dog.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

pupaloo said:


> I don't know if I believe the arthritis thing either-not sure you could say it was because of no dewclaw and not from a lifetime of hard use in a working dog.


I'd almost bet it's strongly tied to structure, strength of pasterns, possibly foot quality. 

Herding dogs do a lot of crouching, quick drops, turns-- and I do believe they use their dews to turn. But... I don't see a lot of labs running like that (my 4 mo old just does a somersault to stop for the bird!). 

My agility friends/owners just visited and when I asked Mark how often he trained agility w/ MACH Strider, his wife quickly replied for him-- "NEVER-- He just trials anymore!"  LOL... guess that makes him a weekend warrior!  

Time for my exercise. Anyone got an extra bird boy?  Anne


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

HEY Blakegoober!!

This was a GREAT QUESTION!!!

Almost three pages a Cat fights!!!~~~~~ OVER DOG FINGERNAILS!!!

JEEEBERS FOLKS!!!!

How many of Ya that were attackin somebody were actually out improvin the way that flea bag a yers runs a blind????

All this over askin for OPINIONS!!!!!

Let me tell a story!!

My aunt had a terrible wart on the end of her nose!!

I Sang in a popular rock band at the time called the LOLLYPOP GUILD!!!

One day,, I gave her my opinion that she sould have it removed!!
(The wart not the band):razz:

Just my opinion!! Mind Ya!!

She blew up at me cause She could look at my beautifull masculin Marvelouse manley figure,, and decided I didnt have a clue about warts on appendages!!!

She NEVER LISTENED,, and continued on her arrogant condesending travels!!

SOMEWHOW!!!!!  A house fell outa the sky and smushed her crazY ARSE!!!


Man I wished She woulda considered an opinion!!!

She really looked silly when they had the service!! That wart and all~~~~ YA KNOW!!!!

Gooser


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

pupaloo said:


> Do we know that dogs' lives are improved by not having dewclaws? They do function, we're just deciding the function isn't important.


 
this is an important observation....

I have seen LOTS of wolves, foxes, coyotes, lynx, 

Have never seen ONE with a missing or injured dew claw....

ever.

Have seen animals with broken toes, missing claws on the front feet, old/healed injuries that would probably kill us in 3 days...
but never seen a missing / injured dew claw....

Juli


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