# Price increase from Entry Express.....



## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Anyone else get the email a few minutes ago?

Price for all entries, on-line, mailed, or VIP is now $4.50.


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## tidewater (Nov 15, 2008)

I got it about 2hours ago. Oh boy


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

That's what happens when you have a monopoly.
Plus, they have to fund the buyout. 
At some point, I might start mailing my entries again.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Ted, It said no matter how you enter....Online, mailed in, or VIP.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Ted, It said no matter how you enter....Online, mailed in, or VIP.


You should still be able to mail them to the secretary. I didn't want to be the one to start this thread. While I understand that every business has a bottom line, I find it a head scratcher from a PR standpoint that you would raise prices immediately after creating a monopoly for a lack of a better word. People are thinking, "Oh, no. They're the only game in town, they're going to raise prices," and bam, that's exactly what you do with virtually no delay. What did the fee used to be? $3? That's almost double the credit card fees on an $80 entry already.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Nothing like monopoly power


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I will need to look at the fine print.

I do think I will send my entries to the secretary as my protest to the price increase


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

It is already expensive enough to play this game!


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I will need to look at the fine print.
> 
> I do think I will send my entries to the secretary as my protest to the price increase


this is what i have done!!! They can kiss it $3 fee I send mine in make them have to open a letter, write down that i paid and then take it to the bank and deposit it!!!!!!!!! It should be a Fee for not signing up online!! It takes way more time to deal with a paper app and a check


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

THE RULE BOOK STATES AS FOLLOWS: 

The place where entries are to be drawn need not be identical with the place where entries are received.

*Each premium list shall specify that the Field Trial Secretary is to receive entries*; however clubs have the option of using an electronic entry service. Online entries are subject to the same requirements as mail entries. Additional
requirements or conditions may be imposed by the online service.

Such service or club shall accept paper entries from those not wishing to enter electronically. A club using an on-line service to accept entries must so stipulate in the premium list and must provide an address for paper entries as well as the website address for online entries. There should be only one address for paper entries, and that address may be that of the entry service company. 

Any service fee imposed by the online entry service must be clearly stated in the premium list. All online entry instructions should be clearly written. The running order, for those clubs which choose to use an electronic service, will be determined by the Dow Jones method as described in Chapter 14, Section 4(b) of this rule book.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

1st retriever said:


> It is already expensive enough to play this game!


Especially if you actually enter and run anything.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Reading that rule it looks like the club _can _use only EE as the receiver of mailed entries and accordingly, charge you the $4.50 fee, anyway.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Reading that rule it looks like the club _can _use only EE as the receiver of mailed entries and accordingly, charge you the $4.50 fee, anyway.


I don't read the Rule that way. I think that the language requires that the FT accept entries, but that the club may use an online service as a supplement.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I don't read the Rule that way. I think that the language requires that the FT accept entries, but that the club may use an online service as a supplement.


May be symantics, but it seems clear that the club can designate the online entry service as the only address to send entries to....sub-quote of your quote:

"Such service or club shall accept paper entries from those not wishing to enter electronically. A club using an on-line service to accept entries must so stipulate in the premium list and must provide an address for paper entries as well as the website address for online entries. There should be only one address for paper entries, and that address may be that of the entry service company."


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

They probably will impose a manual processing fee anyway.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Just sent them a message requesting info. on cost. Did they increase club cost? Handler was $3.00. A merger is to reduce cost not increase it. They do not understand we are all still reeling from the economy and higher costs will not help the sport. When Ret News was touting their program they were offering a rebate to the clubs ... how has that changed?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Joe Brakke said:


> Just sent them a message requesting info. on cost. Did they increase club cost? Handler was $3.00. A merger is to reduce cost not increase it. They do not understand we are all still reeling from the economy and higher costs will not help the sport. When Ret News was touting their program they were offering a rebate to the clubs ... how has that changed?


They were trying to win your business.

Now they have a monopoly.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Especially if you actually enter and run anything.


 
Hey! lol jk I only run the local test. Don't have the money to travel.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

I hope Ted is right. Not excited about a 50% increase for the service. More mail in entries for me.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I'm all about helping a retriever supporter out, but damn that's a quarter pounder with cheese meal right there.....


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

Here is the email:



> Dear Valued Customer,
> 
> We recently announced that the online event entry services of EntryExpress.net and RetrieverEntry.com have merged. You will continue to receive the same great service you have come to expect. You can look forward to many enhancements, as well as a single source for event entry and a complete database for results research.
> 
> ...


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

just looked at the FCRC hunt test coming up and it says even the mail in entries have to add the 4.50 what a rip off, maybe we can get hunt test secretary to do some AKC tests along with the HRC tests they do as they charge 3 bucks......


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Did EE spend any of the Give back fund?


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## Doug Moore (Nov 8, 2006)

Kevin Eskam said:


> just looked at the FCRC hunt test coming up and it says even the mail in entries have to add the 4.50 what a rip off.


Same here at our next trial. I remember the complaints about people being "strong-armed" a while back.......I guess we all are now While $4.50 is not much more than a gallon of gas nowadays the fact that you have to pay either way is BS.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

> just looked at the FCRC hunt test coming up and it says even the mail in entries have to add the 4.50 what a rip off,


Did a spot check on all the HT I was thinking of entering this summer and it seems like EE has done a total update on about half the premiums to include the new fee on all entries including mail in entries. Looks like those that entered before the price increase were very smart.


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## 2 Fowl (Mar 6, 2008)

It cost me $159.00 to run a double header in Fallon, NV...:barf:
I don't think I'll do that again....

2Fowl


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I bet you the Dogs Afield $$$ will go away too....................


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

I love it....

Years later, the dog world is still belly aching over entries.

Like $.50 is going to put a dent the required budget it takes to campaign a dog. 

Where is my signature line? Oh, there it is. ;-)

Like I said long ago...if you wan't to fix your problem...stop entering dogs. Have a picnic trial with a bunch of friends and enjoy the day.

But noooooooo, you wan't them points so that you can qualify for those little annual events that, oh btw, happened to be put on by the same people that control your entry system now.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Fer crying out loud it's a buck and a half- it's trivial in the overall scheme of things.

Still the best thing that ever happened to the Test/Trial secretaries of the world.

I got $10 you could fry an eg on Shaynes forehead right now.

Stop snivelling- it's still a bargain regards

Bubba


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

Kevinismybrother said:


> Did a spot check on all the HT I was thinking of entering this summer and it seems like EE has done a total update on about half the premiums to include the new fee on all entries including mail in entries. Looks like those that entered before the price increase were very smart.


Does the rulebook permit this to happen:




> SECTION 9. Any field trial-giving club which accepts​
> 
> an entry fee other than that published in its premium list
> or entry form, or in any way discriminates between
> ...


Everything(entry fee) must be equal since the club is using an entry service, correct?​

So will the early entrants be charged that extra amount($1.50) now?​ 
And the clubs premiums that are already open still state the structured entry fee. Can they(EE.net &/or the club) change it after it has been opened for entries and have accepted entries?​ 
-Tim​


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## Dustin (Jul 5, 2004)

It's a business, that happens to have thought of a great idea and now controls the market in its sector. If you think it's such a ripoff, here is your chance to write a business plan and see how well you can do it yourself. They are taking 6% of the entry fee(based on $70 entry) and do all the work along with printing a super nice catalog. Seems reasonable to me. Sure it could be cheaper but remember, they aren't doing it for fun. 

Dustin


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## RJG (Feb 18, 2005)

I know it's only $1.50 more -- but if you enter multiple dogs or are doing 2 day Jr/Sr, it adds up. I must admit I blinked twice when I got that email - I think adding that much on all at once is a bad PR move. Not that they care, I expect. But I was/am surprised. And not very happy about it 
Hello EE, has anyone mentioned to you that the economy is not good....


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

i_willie12 said:


> this is what i have done!!! They can kiss it $3 fee I send mine in make them have to open a letter, write down that i paid and then take it to the bank and deposit it!!!!!!!!! It should be a Fee for not signing up online!! It takes way more time to deal with a paper app and a check


Damn fine idea or as Ted suggested send it to the HT/FT sec. Since they feel they have an monopoly they can gouge us with impunity. Pure greed. What's gonna be next year $10.00?


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Joe Brakke said:


> Just sent them a message requesting info. on cost. Did they increase club cost? Handler was $3.00. A merger is to reduce cost not increase it. They do not understand we are all still reeling from the economy and higher costs will not help the sport. When Ret News was touting their program they were offering a rebate to the clubs ... how has that changed?


The rebate is probably why they boosted the fee. It's an effort to recoop some of the money they foolishly gave back as well as money wasted setting up the programs.

JMO


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## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

Golddogs said:


> The rebate is probably why they boosted the fee. It's an effort to recoop some of the money they foolishly gave back as well as money wasted setting up the programs.
> 
> JMO


They cancelled the rebate this year even before the merger.


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

Actually, it's gone up $4.50 per entry for a mailed in entry using a check. Correct?


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

If I wrote software programs, I'd be thinking of creating a new service. With this increase you would probably get flooded with clubs using your service.


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

I haven't received the e mail yet. I suspect it is in my spam folder. Ha!


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Dustin said:


> ) and do all the work along with printing a super nice catalog.
> 
> Dustin


Dustin,

That super nice catalog EE prints is not free. Entry Express charges the club $2.19 for every catalog they print. 

For example, the 187 catalogs printed for last weekend's hunt test cost the club $409.53.
Entry Express determines how many catalogs to print, not the club. 

Those bright yellow post cards printed and mailed out by Entry Express announcing the event and the dates? 

They aren't free either. The club is charged 85-cents per yellow post card. 169 post cards (169 names on the mailing list) cost the club $143.65.

The cost for "shipping and handling" the catalogs to the HT secretary was $86.81.

The services Entry Express provides the clubs are priceless, but these services are not free.

Every time you pick up a catalog, remember that the club paid $2.19 plus shipping to get it into your hands. 

Helen Graves


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Diane Brunelle said:


> They cancelled the rebate this year even before the merger.


Still a loss they may be trying to recoop.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Fer crying out loud it's a buck and a half- it's trivial in the overall scheme of things.
> 
> Still the best thing that ever happened to the Test/Trial secretaries of the world.
> 
> ...


No frick'n kidding!! Lord have mercy... I was a field trial secretary and hunt test secretary back in the old days when we did it all... It sucked especially when UPS went on strike..

When was the last time any of you registered a litter or dog online? AKC hangs you $25 for the privilege.

Ya'll are spoiled if you ask me.. Suck it up!!!

Angie


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

helencalif said:


> Dustin,
> 
> That super nice catalog EE prints is not free. Entry Express charges the club $2.19 for every catalog they print.
> 
> ...


Helen , You hit the nail on the head...There is none thing free from EE...And ...I have half a box of catalogs unopend from our last two events....I am afraid to count up the dollars wasted on them ....same for those yellow cards you mentioned...As a club we need to manage our cost as well...I hve done the draw and got catalogs made and yes it is work ....but this increase go directly to the entrants fees ..not the clubs...How soon will we see an increase too...? How does that line go ? power corrupts and total power totally corrupts? Steve S


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Please keep in mind that dog people are cheap and tight as toe nails. If entryexpress get's too ridiculous then we'll go back to the old way...

Angie


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Angie B said:


> ...hangs you $25 for the privilege.
> 
> Ya'll are spoiled if you ask me.. Suck it up!!!


Robbery, but who has a competing product? Don't suck it up - build a better mouse trap...

Folks love those "convenience" fees.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

helencalif said:


> Dustin,
> 
> That super nice catalog EE prints is not free. Entry Express charges the club $2.19 for every catalog they print.
> 
> ...


Helen,

How much would your entry fees be if you didn't 'HAVE' to print a catalog and mail cards. Would it save clubs $$ to go another route???

How many entries for 187 catalogs. Let's say 150 x $4.50 EE service charge per entry = $675 dollars EE makes from contestants.

Plus your $409.53 + 143.65 + $675.00 from the contestants = $1228.18 for EE YEAH! And how many events were last weekend??????

15 events last weekend x $1228.18 = $18,422.70 hmmmmmmmmm

I think I might know another programmer......or do we really need those darn catalogs????


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Retriever News is owned by the two national clubs -- the National Retriever Club and the National Amateur Retriever Club (see page 4 under the masthead on the current issue of RN).

For several years the two national retriever clubs experimented with providing an on-line entry service via their rftentry.com website. Since its inception, their on-line entry service had problems. Few clubs used their on-line service for club events and many users found it difficult to understand and use. I don't think it was a money-maker for the two national clubs. It seems to me that it was a big headache. No telling how much was spent out of the club treasuries to float the idea. Anybody know?

It sounds to me that RN (i.e. the officers and directors of the two national clubs) decided their on-line entry service was a failure and they pulled the plug. 

However, the latest is being called a "merger" in announcements. I don't know what "merger" really means in this instance. I grabbed Mr. Webster to see what the definition of "merger" is.

Well, this is not the combination of two companies or two corporations into one. By use of the word merger, do they mean that one is absorbing the obligation or interest of the other? Sounds like it to me in that the two national clubs discontinued their on-line service so Entry Express could handle all entries for all retriever club events (CAVEAT: clubs are not obligated to use Entry Express. But most retriever clubs do sign up with EE to handle the entries for their events, mail out post card announcements, print catalogs, and many of the clubs also buy ribbons from Entry Express.

About that "merger" ... the most current issue of RN (first page) carries their announcement saying that this is a "merger". It further states that as their part of the deal, the RN website will provide links to EE for all on-line entries. It also says Retriever News will "manage the executive and advertising functions".

Can't figure out what that means... can somebody explain what RN will be doing to "manage executive and advertising functions"? Exactly what is the staff at Retriever News "managing" as their part of the merger? And do they receive any $$ for providing this management? 

Ahem. One of the benefits RN says the merger will provide is "an equitable price structure for everyone". I grabbed Mr. Webster again and looked up "equitable". It means "fair" or "just" (price structure) as a result of an action. 

What "fair and just price structure benefit for everyone" was Dennis Bath referring to? I wish he would explain his use of these words in his announcement. 

Right after this beneficial "merger", a price increase for "administrative fees" was announced by Entry Express. EE will now charge $4.50 for every entry. What's fair and just about that? It seems like Entry Express is getting a $$ benefit ... not the folks who are entering dogs (the retriever community). 

What real benefits did the two national clubs get from this "merger"? Did they get $$ from Entry Express to discontinue their on-line entry service?

There really isn't clear transparency in the explanations of what has happened in this merger. The retriever community who supports both entities (Entry Express and the two national retriever clubs) will probably never know. 

Entry Express is a private for profit company. 

Retriever News and the two national clubs who own RN are not. They are nonprofit corporations. I think their primary income is derived from 3 sources: 

1. from membership dues paid by clubs (annual dues are $100 per club)
2. from the advertising and subscription income received from publishing the Retriever News
3. from the entry fees, donations, and other income generated to host their annual events -- the National Retriever Club field trial (aka the National Open) and the National Amateur Retriever Club field trial (aka the National Amateur). 

No doubt the two clubs have other sources of income such as paid advertising on the Retriever News website. There could be other income sources. 

If I have miss-stated anything in the above, please feel free to make corrections. 

Helen Graves


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## Boomer (May 13, 2006)

I WILL NOT PAY.
I have informed my trainers not to enter my dogs at the 4.50 rate. If I can mail paper for free I will. I have sent an email to AKC asking if I must pay the 4.50 if I send paper. I would ask each of you to do the same. This is highway robbery. Where will the fee go next?
Entry express was making money at 2.00 for VIP.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

EE was charging $3.00 for an 'early entry' and now the 'MERGER' has added the 'Retriever News' fee of $1.50. Therefore.....merge $3.00 + $1.50 = $4.50

Well, it's just simple math.

I'm back to mailing entries to the trial secretary which the AKC tells me MUST accept your entry. 

Simply print and complete the following form and mail to the trial secretary listed here....heck I'll even include the extra $$. At least it will go to the local clubs I use.

Entry form http://www.akc.org/pdfs/AFN999_1003.pdf

Event calendar
http://www.akc.org/events/static/index.cfm

www.working-retriever.com GONE
www.retrieverentry.com GONE

Hello progress!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

The AKC has been a good mentor to all of these supers the way I see it.... just keep sticking it to the little guy (the clubs basically) until they are swiss cheese!

I don't pay obed, rally or agility superintendents their online fee--- I mail mine in. I often enter 2-3 dogs in multiple classes. I hope there will be a mailing option here too as I will use it again. $3 was one thing, $4.50 is ridiculous for the convenience of THEM having everything online to cut/paste into a catalog that I always got anyhow. 

It used to be you were considered short sighted to count on titling when you only had 1 Q to go. I can't justify entering at $70+ per test for an insurance leg.


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

TBell said:


> EE was charging $3.00 for an 'early entry' and now the 'MERGER' has added the 'Retriever News' fee of $1.50. Therefore.....merge $3.00 + $1.50 = $4.50
> 
> Well, it's just simple math.
> 
> ...


Tammy, did you get that in writing? The rulebook says only one address is acceptable for paper entries...





> The place where entries are to be drawn need not be​
> 
> identical with the place where entries are received.
> Each premium list shall specify that the Field Trial​
> ...


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

TBell said:


> I'm back to mailing entries to the trial secretary which the AKC tells me MUST accept your entry.


I don't find anything in the rules that supports your statement. I wish you were correct, but I don't think you are.

Regarding mailed entries the rulebook says 



> "There should be only one address for paper entries, and that address may be that of the entry service company."


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

steve schreiner said:


> There is none thing free from EE...And ...I have half a box of catalogs unopend from our last two events....I am afraid to count up the dollars wasted on them. Steve S


Steve, start counting. It's $2.19 per catalog plus the cost to ship the un-used catalogs to the club. 

Entry Express (not the clubs) decides how many catalogs to print and ship to the event secretaries. At a hunt test last weekend, I personally threw away 40 catalogs not needed for a Master stake. I know there were other un-used catalogs in addition to the 40 that I personally had to throw away. My guess is that over 50 catalogs were thrown out. That's over $100 worth of catalogs the club paid for but didn't need. 

I wish EE would look at whatever equation they are using to determine how many catalogs to print and ship clubs based upon the dogs entered. The clubs are losing money because too many catalogs are being printed. Especiallly when the event is a hunt test with a double Junior, double senior. 

Without any announcement to club HT or FT secretaries, EE raised the price of their yellow post cards to 85-cents each. OUCH. 

About the yellow post cards ... every event secretary is responsible for weeding out the bad addresses and for keeping their club's mailing list accurate. EE does include in the box of catalogs shipped to the event secretaries all of the yellow post cards that have been returned by the post office as undeliverables. It behooves every event secretary to take the time to go into their mailing lists (the club's mailing list is on the EE website) and delete these bad addresses. 20 returned post cards-- the club just spent $17.00 for nothing. Doesn't sound like much, but every expense adds up for the club putting on an event. 

Do not get me wrong. As a field trial secretary for two clubs, EE is my best friend. I can't (and wouldn't) do it without them, but I do want RTF readers to know that there is no free lunch. Entry Express charges the club for all of the services they provide to handle a club's event. 

And now EE is charging the folks who enter the event $4.50 per entry. However, we must keep in mind that we all use charge cards to make our entries so there is a VISA, MASTER CARD charge to EE to handle these entries so EE is not making $4.50 for every entry. They are paying the credit card companies something. 

Helen


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Cut a deal with Hunt Secretary. I'm sure they would like the business but would you like them?

Just asking regards,


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## Bob Walton (Jan 1, 2007)

I think if you mail your entry to the event secretary if their address is not specifically listed to accept entries , you may have a problem.In the Field Trial Rules and Standards, Page 9 , Chapter 7 is pretty specific . It states "A club using an online entry service to accept entries must so stipulate in the premium list and must provide an address for paper entries as well as the website address for online entries.There should be only one address for paper entries , and that address may be that of the entry service company."
I have been secretary for both hunt tests and field trials for a few years now and have had entries mailed directly to me and not to the listed address. Most times , I have been able to forward them in time to make the closing but not always. 
I can see the frustration of a mandatory fee but It will probably be worse to have your entry
is rejected. The reason clubs use entry services is to make the job easier. Trials and Hunt Tests are put on by people who give their time and effort so that you can have a place to run your dogs , often at the expense of their own dogs.Please don't take out on them.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Go back to the old way... Like anyone knows how that works??? 

I will pay that $4.50 surcharge on any entry any day...

Angie


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

You can decline the use of yellow postcards to save that cost. But you must remind EE before posting each event...I forgot to do so for our spring trial. And I believe you can set the number of catalogs you want, saving the cost of extras if you have a good idea of how many you actually will need. Regarding entry fee "administative" costs, I believe it already has been $4.50 on EE if you waited until the last 24 hours before closing time--which many have done, just to see at the last hours how many total numbers of dogs are being entered. I just filled up my diesel truck today, and the extra entry fee cost would equal less than one-half gallon of fuel per entry. All relative, folks...


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Angie B said:


> Go back to the old way... Like anyone knows how that works???
> 
> I will pay that $4.50 surcharge on any entry any day...
> 
> Angie


Yeah, I'm sure any pro would.

NET NET it increases entry fees for the individual dog owner who works these trials.

EE used to charge the service fee only for online entries which relieved some of the credit card company fees. Mail in entries were exempt. That was FAIR......But now it APPEARS that the new merger will INCLUDE service fees for mail in entries ALSO. That APPEARS to be PROFIT motivated.

Why would a NON-PROFIT National Retriever Club concerned with the welfare of the sport be concerned with service fees?????


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

TBell said:


> Yeah, I'm sure any pro would.


Exactly! People who live paycheck to paycheck and want to play the game, well, it just keeps getting harder.


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## g_fiebelkorn (Jul 31, 2006)

TimThurby said:


> Dear Valued Customer,


Lesson learned: Beware of any communication that begins with such a greeting.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Convenience is worth it to me...click,click, done...time is money. Costs 5$ in quarters to wash the truck....but I understand why some may not like it.


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

TBell said:


> Yeah, I'm sure any pro would.
> 
> NET NET it increases entry fees for the individual dog owner who works these trials.
> 
> ...


Actually Tammy I think it was to relieve some of the VIP discounts losses, but that isn't the way it was proposed... http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35110

It was suppose to be to "help the clubs" with late entries. I always thought if that was the case, the clubs could just move up the closing date. As the case we had when we did things before EE. The clubs are going broke, so now get it from the entrants as I see it.

BTW, what were the VIP entries, large Pro trucks?


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Why are some of you saying that it's only $1.50, less than a half gallon of gas, so who cares? That's the same mentality that got our country into the deficit mess that it's in. "Oh, it's only $10 billion in a $2 trillion budget so what's the big deal?" If you don't care about $1.50, a 50% increase in one fell swoop, then where would you draw the line? A $5 increase, $10?

Personally I wouldn't care how much EE charges if there was an alternative, which in many cases there isn't. Most of the premiums for HRC hunt tests in Michigan are sent to a club secretary for no additional fee, because we realize we need to keep the test costs as low as possible in order to encourage entries. As it is it looks like entries will be down from last year. I would encourage clubs to drop EE and do it the old fashioned way.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

TBell said:


> Helen,
> 
> How much would your entry fees be if you didn't 'HAVE' to print a catalog and mail cards. Would it save clubs $$ to go another route???
> 
> ...


Hi Tammy,

Yes, we really do need those darn catalogs. AKC and Retriever News require catalogs for judges to sign for placements, JAMs, and for hunt tests: pass or fails. Catalogs contain the running order which everybody needs. No club can do away with catalogs to save money.

I doubt if many clubs today could get a club member to volunteer to prepare a catalog camera ready and then take it to a copy shop to have it printed and stapled. The old days are gone and, hopefully, they never come back. Every person who has ever been an Event Secretary in the old days, thanks EE for preparing and printing the catalogs. 

The EE price of $2.19 each seems very reasonable. My only concern is how many are printed. There is an equation EE uses. I don't know what it is, but it is based upon the number of dogs entered. Whatever it is, my experience has been that too many catalogs are being printed. I wish EE had a feedback system so they could know when they really print too many catalogs. Maybe they would change whatever their equation-formula is. 

The 85-cent cost on the yellow post cards seems high to me. It costs 17-cents to mail a post card which means EE is charging 68-cents per post card for these short run post card print jobs. If they are sending it out to an independent copy shop, maybe they have to pay them almost that. They also have to have paid staff prepare the post card copy camera ready and take it to wherever the post cards are to be printed, then pick up the post cards and haul them to the post office, so maybe 85-cents per card is barely a break-even service. If EE does all of the printing in house, the yellow post cards are profitable for them.

Can clubs beat the 85-cent cost? Let's use last weekend's hunt test. The club paid $143.65 for 169 post cards to be printed and mailed.

DO IT YOURSELF VERSION. There has to be a free volunteer who owns their own copying machine and who doesn't mind donating the cost of running it. A ream of plain white paper (500 sheets) can be purchased for $5 (that's 1-cent per sheet). The volunteer has to type up a master with all the event and entry info on it and then run 169 copies using their own copying machine. Cost of the paper: $1.69. I am not going to try to figure in the cost of using the copy machine. The volunteer is going to absorb that cost. 

ENVELOPES. The volunteer decides not to fold and staple each sheet of paper. They decide to fold the paper and place it in a #10 envelope. 40 envelopes cost around $3 at my local office supply store. Let's say envelopes cost 8-cents each. 169 envelopes @ 8-cents = $10.12.

MAILING LABELS. If the volunteer decides not to hand address 169 envelopes, they are going to have to run off address labels which means entering 169 names/address either onto a label master and run off Avery labels on their copy machine (an old fashioned method) or buy labels and run them off from the mailing list they have entered into their computer. The cost of labels is going to vary. Let's say address labels will cost $10. 

RETURN LABELS. Same cost if you run them off. $10.

POSTAGE. Has to go first class. 169 x .44 = $74.36. 

DO IT YOURSELF. $1.69 paper + $20 labels + $10.12 envelopes + postage $74.36.
Total: $106.17. Hmmm, vs. $143.66 to have EE handle preparing, printing, and mailing post cards. I don't think you could find any Event Secretary who wants to take on this job and use her personal copy machine to save the club $38. 

The hunt test entries last weekend were 250 (not 150). EE's new administrative fee per dog of $4.50 would have garnered EE $1,125. From this amount you have to debit the credit card service fees. But still, we can see that the new $4.50 per dog fee is where EE is going to be making the larger profit. EE is a business with an overhead that has to be paid.

Hope all the figures I have listed above are correct. No adding machine next to the computer. I had to resort to pencil and paper and 4th grade arithmetic.

Helen


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Okay so the national clubs get to up the ante. They put on the nationals and publish the news that stuff is not free. I am running 2 AA dogs probably 12 trials a year in usually both AA stakes so 2dogs X 2 stakes X 12 trials X 4.50/stakes = $216 per year, folks that won't buy my fuel to any trial I go to except the one in the backyard and maybe Chattanooga. Entry fees 48 X 80= 3840 

Don't bitch if you have never been to a national and see what it takes to put one of those events on. Ted I agree that maybe there timing wasn't the best but how much is too much for them to make. If they take that extra money and use it for the benefit of our sport I'm all for it. If they waste it on $150 dollar bottles of wine I'm against it. I think we as clubs and clients of a non-profit should have a detailed financial statement of the national clubs several weeks before the national meetings so if we have questions they can be asked at those yearly meetings. 
Chad


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Having spent many years with the FTS who received the entries, counted the money, typed and printed the catalog and having paid for express overnight delivery of entries at $15+ bucks a pop I appreciate and happily pay for the convenience of entering from my office and recently switching trials @11:57 PM. The cost relative to the investment in time, money, and resources is insignificant.


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## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

Another concern I see is that a lot of people that are trying to save money and have dogs ready may have entered prior to the 48 hour fee increase which gives clubs an idea of where they may end up with total entries. The lack of incentive to enter early will probably cause a lot more last minute entries which may lead to more early closings to give clubs more time to get everything in line especially if they need to arrange more help, more grounds, or split tests.

I can see that as a challenge for some clubs more so than the 1.50 increase. Just a thought.


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

Chad:
Your Grady puppy clients don't mind paying the extra fee, they seem to be getting their money's worth in ribbons


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

Sorry Chad I don't fully agree.

Hunt Test folks shouldn't have to pay for your dog(or mine if we ever get there) to run the National.
I pay for my news yearly and have for years, that should have no bearing on EE.net fees.
And that $216 did pay for my fuel to my longest trial, but if it didn't it would pay for one of kids to eat at school for more than a couple months.

Look I'm not against companies making money, I just think once again it is being force fed to us. 

Tim


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## RexG (Mar 16, 2006)

EdA said:


> Having spent many years with the FTS who received the entries, counted the money, typed and printed the catalog and having paid for express overnight delivery of entries at $15+ bucks a pop I appreciate and happily pay for the convenience of entering from my office and recently switching trials @11:57 PM. The cost relative to the investment in time, money, and resources is insignificant.


There's no Like button over here. But LIKE!


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Question, Is this legally acceptable in all states? My understanding is that in some states, if you advertise an entry fee of $xx.00 that there must be some way of entering the event for $xx.00 not $xx.00 +$4.50. And as EE now has it, the entry fee is not the entry fee as there is no way you can enter the event for that price. 


T. Mac


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

T. Mac said:


> Question, Is this legally acceptable in all states? My understanding is that in some states, if you advertise an entry fee of $xx.00 that there must be some way of entering the event for $xx.00 not $xx.00 +$4.50. And as EE now has it, the entry fee is not the entry fee as there is no way you can enter the event for that price.
> 
> 
> T. Mac


Contacting your state's AG office should answer that intriguing question.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I wonder how many clubs will go back to having the club secretaries do the drawing and all the other work that a secretary had to go through. I remember how much they loved the idea of EE when it started. I also remember how hard it was to get the chairmen to see it their way. I remember a secretary telling the president of the club to shove it, she was going entry express and if he didn't like it he could be the secretary. 

Personally, it raises my entry express expense from $12 to $18 a trial weekend. $15 to $22.50 if I also have a minor stakes dog. I'll notice it over a season but probably not enough to not go to a trial.

What really really irks me is that they've taken away the option of sending in a check with a printed entry. They have me over a barrel and I have to pay their fees or not play in the trial that weekend. When EE first started the $3 was to defray the expense the credit card companies were charging. If you sent in a check there was no credit card company expense.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Chad Baker said:


> Okay so the national clubs get to up the ante. They put on the nationals and publish the news that stuff is not free. I am running 2 AA dogs probably 12 trials a year in usually both AA stakes so 2dogs X 2 stakes X 12 trials X 4.50/stakes = $216 per year, folks that won't buy my fuel to any trial I go to except the one in the backyard and maybe Chattanooga. Entry fees 48 X 80= 3840
> 
> Don't bitch if you have never been to a national and see what it takes to put one of those events on. Ted I agree that maybe there timing wasn't the best but how much is too much for them to make. If they take that extra money and use it for the benefit of our sport I'm all for it. If they waste it on $150 dollar bottles of wine I'm against it. I think we as clubs and clients of a non-profit should have a detailed financial statement of the national clubs several weeks before the national meetings so if we have questions they can be asked at those yearly meetings.
> Chad


Do the Nat'l clubs still have any stake in this deal? And don't the Nat'ls generally turn a profit?


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## Mattyj (Apr 17, 2009)

I am pretty new to this. I know that EE is mostly a online entry service but I am curious, how much do they charge for you to look up what test and trials are happeing in your area? Or who passed and failed and the history of a certain dog or trainer? It seems to me that the first thing someone does on RTF when they question someones experience is check EE. $1.50? Really? I am skipping a bunch of tests this year, but not due to $1.50. Due to the rise in gas, yes. Due to my teacher wife losing her job after 10 years, yes. But not $4.00 I FEEL for a worthwhile service.


Price of stamps increasing too, regards.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I used HuntSecretary.com for a HRC test and it was reasonable. It is not as clean as EE but it might be worth an inquiry for clubs. So many clubs have websites, they should just post the info and let folks print what they want. I don't get the big need for a catalog. Anyhow, the cost isn't much of an issue but the strong-armed approach ruffles my feathers.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Howard N said:


> *What really really irks me is that they've taken away the option of sending in a check with a printed entry. They have me over a barrel and I have to pay their fees or not play in the trial that weekend.*



Well put Howard.
That does give this entity undue power over us. Pay the toll or hit the road. I thought this was OUR sport.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Do the Nat'l clubs still have any stake in this deal? And don't the Nat'ls generally turn a profit?


The National Retriever Club and The National Amateur Retriever Club own Retriever News and it's subsidiary entry service which recently merged with Entry Express. The National Championship Stakes are not particularly profitable enterprises and have been known to lose rather than make money although not regularly.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

helencalif said:


> For example, the 187 catalogs printed for last weekend's hunt test cost the club $409.53.
> Entry Express determines how many catalogs to print, not the club.


I've been to at least two events where EE didn't send enough catalogs for everyone to get one. When the club complained, they were told that's just the way it goes.

It seems the number of catalogs is based on some formula that presumes that handlers will have multiple dogs. A club that has lots and lots of single dog owners is just out of luck.

The club refuses to use EE. Can't blame them. I too have had issues with EE catalog errors and I get told, "Tough" or my emails are ignored.

Eric


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## Judy Myers (Feb 15, 2009)

You mean the clubs are paying for all those card notices that I receive for hunt tests all over the west including ones I've never been to even though, until last November, I hadn't run a hunt test in something like 5 1/2 years? I have no idea why Entry Express keeps sending these useless cards to me. Someone earlier said these were based on lists from the clubs. Do I have to contact every club that sends me one and tell them to take my name off the list. Even if I were running a lot of hunt tests, I wouldn't need them because the events are listed on EE or the AKC website anyway.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Eric Johnson said:


> I've been to at least two events where EE didn't send enough catalogs for everyone to get one. When the club complained, they were told that's just the way it goes.
> 
> It seems the number of catalogs is based on some formula that presumes that handlers will have multiple dogs. A club that has lots and lots of single dog owners is just out of luck.
> 
> ...


Eric, I don't want to come across as an apologist for Entry Express but, 

Doesn't Entry express say the number of catalogs they send is 75% of the entries? If you want more you can order order them when you are setting up the event. After all they are in the catalog printing business and would be happy to sell more.

Also, if there are errors in the catalog, aren't they caused by people making mistakes when they send the info in? EE doesn't make up the info.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Judy Myers said:


> You mean the clubs are paying for all those card notices that I receive for hunt tests all over the west including ones I've never been to even though, until last November, I hadn't run a hunt test in something like 5 1/2 years? I have no idea why Entry Express keeps sending these useless cards to me. Someone earlier said these were based on lists from the clubs. Do I have to contact every club that sends me one and tell them to take my name off the list. Even if I were running a lot of hunt tests, I wouldn't need them because the events are listed on EE or the AKC website anyway.


Yes, Judy, the clubs are paying EE 85-cents for every post card sent to you. You receive the post cards because your name and address was included on the mailing lists the clubs sent to Entry Express. The mailing lists were sent to EE probably the first year the club used Entry Express to handle its entries. 

If you don't want to receive post cards from clubs notifying you of their hunt test dates, judges, deadlines, etc. ... please contact the various club's hunt test secretary. Go to Entry Express and look up the last hunt test the club had. It will list contact information for the HT Secretary. Write... phone ... or email the HT Secretary and asked to be removed from their mailing list. You will save the clubs money and the aggravation you feel when the post cards arrive.

If field trialers would do the same for me (Sagehens and Lassen Retriever Clubs) I would gladly delete them from our Field Trial mailing lists to save the clubs money. There is no way for a FT or HT Secretary to know that a person is not running dogs any more or is not interested in receiving the post card. About the only people I can delete are the ones I know who are deceased or when the post office sends back an undelivered post card.

Helen Graves 
Always watching the clubs' cookie jars


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## Judy Myers (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks, Helen. I have no idea how I got on these clubs' lists because I have never run their tests. But when they come in, I will try to contact the secretaries and save the clubs some money. I appreciate your advice - and I'm sure they will, too.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Howard N said:


> Also, if there are errors in the catalog, aren't they caused by people making mistakes when they send the info in? EE doesn't make up the info.


You are almost 100% right, Howard. The errors are made by the people who set up their account at Entry Express so they could enter their dogs. I have seen misspellings on sire and dam names and titles of famous dogs have been omitted (yes, even for Lean Mac and Chopper, just to name two). I have seen misspelled pro handler names and typos made by the owners on their own names. I have seen incorrect state abbreviations in addresses. 

However, the mistakes that EE makes that drives me crazy as a Field Trial Secretary are the names and addresses published in the back of the catalog. Sometimes there is no address at all. You know EE got an address for the person who entered their dog, but EE omitted printing their address. 

When the trial is over, F.T. Secretaries need addresses to mail scratch refunds. It is maddening to go to the catalog for the address and find that EE did not print one.

Helen


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Losthwy said:


> Contacting your state's AG office should answer that intriguing question.


Actually, this seems like it is something clubs and event committees need to explore real carefully as I'm sure if there is a legal problem, it will be the club(s) that will be hit with any sanctions. And it is not something that contacting one AG will solve, as most of the clubs events will pull entrants from multiple states. Further as the entries are either via "wire" or USPS, there may also be some federal component that needs to be checked in addition to the laws from adjacent states. 

T. Mac


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

What a bunch of cry babies.

The merger obviously brought with it numerous development costs involved with creating the centralized location of all this DATA! Obviously those of you who are complaining about the $1.50 didn't think of the logistics and physical man hours put in to place for getting a result that all of us really want, a quality centralized location for information and for a centralized location to enter for a trial or a test. Converting the data from one database to another is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The company I work for does data conversions on cornerstone type database real estate systems upwards of 14 times per year just for primary data sources not including the small localized data we're bringing in to the database for places like property assessors etc. This stuff takes time and a lot of man hours behind a monitor.

On top of the costs of the actual merger, the pure costs of continual maintenance to database servers, hardware updates or new machines, bandwidth, database software license fees.... all these things I deal with on a near weekly basis and none of these things are getting cheaper either. Costs are going up everywhere and the costs of entry increases might actually pay for one single piece of database hardware in a single year let alone the bandwidth price increases.

My company also prints real estate books. Most of our clients have let these old school tools of the Realtor trade in the past, but we still print upwards of 1 million pages of paper each month. EE is in the same business and has the same expenses. Again, hardware maintenance, new hardware, or even actual hands on labor to get the book layouts done. Now that there are so many more events going through EE, maybe they had to hire another staff person to work with the layout and binding and shipping process of getting everything out in the one week time from entry close until the event actually happening.

As a person who has spent a lot of volunteered time for my club, I'm assuming that a lot of you complaining haven't done so and have no idea how much time your board members, event chairs and committees actually spend each season working for you and for people who don't pay the little annual membership fee.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

When I first read about the price increase I wasn't too bothered by it; isn't that what EE's been charging if you enter at the last minute (like I usually do)? Definitely zero incentive to enter early now. And I've been a HT sec. many times, so I know how much of a PITA it is for clubs to order birds & make arrangements when all the entries come in last minute.

I imagine there are expenses to EE for buying the other service and merging the databases but the timing sure did stink. And as for the catalogs, let's not forget that EE sells advertising in those pretty catalogs---but the clubs do not get that money. Clubs are just being hammered with costs now with doubled AKC fees and bird costs sky high.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

it's not the $ 1.50, its the principle of the extra $ 1.50...for some/many its a a schiat sandwich and they are being asked to eat it, on dry toast, just like the $ 4/per gal gas..you're gonna pay it, just dont ask everyone to take it in stride and like it


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast lately with the economy still not recovering and now with gas prices going through the roof. I wonder how many people complaining about the extra $1.50 are going to pull their dogs from pro trucks when their pro ups their winter trip fees, handling fees, monthly fees, bird fees? Pro's have barely adjusted their monthly rates since gas was only $2.00 a gallon and a bag of dog food was $25.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> ...I imagine there are expenses to EE for buying the other service ...


Did EE buy out the other service or did the other service buy out EE???

Maybe I missed something but I "interpreted" the news of the "merger" as RN acquiring EE. 

Maybe all this rain is just getting to me


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I know I am beating a real dead horse, but the word "merger" is being used here on RTF as a term for whatever has happened because that is how EE and Retriever News have announced what this new whatever it is... is. They also call it an "alliance" and a "consolidation". 

From the information included in the RN press release published in the current issue of RN, I don't see where there is a "merger" of anything. Retriever News (owned by the 2 national clubs) stopped their online entry service and EE now has the only online entry service. 

That seems to be of great benefit to EE. What are the benefits for the 2 national clubs who own Retriever News?

RN says they now have a long term management agreement so RN will "manage executive and advertising functions". Will some Officer or Board Member at RN (and/or of the 2 national clubs) please explain just what an executive function is or what an advertising function is that RN will be managing for Entry Express?

Will the national clubs be paid money by EE to have the RN staff provide this management? 

As you can see, I am having a bit of a difficulty understanding what Dennis Bath is saying in his convoluted press release. 

He said this "merger" will mean "cost containment". So EE suddenly announces it will now be charging an administration fee of $4.50 for every dog entered in an event. Paper entries will no longer be free. Some cost containment. 

And then comes the Shayne quotation in the press release. Shayne is quoted as referring to this as a "consolidation of retriever services". What services are being consolidated? RN is not going to have an online entry service anymore and RN is not going to have a calendar of club events. RN is OUT. Only EE will provide this; they are IN. So what services were "consolidated" ? 

So I am sitting here wondering where in the press release it explains what the benefits will be for the 2 national retriever clubs. It seems to me RN pulled the plug and EE received the benefits. 

I am glad that the 2 national clubs stopped spending money on a failed attempt to have an online entry service.  It was poorly executed from the get-go and was probably nothing but a money pit for the two national clubs. 

Helen


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Did EE buy out the other service or did the other service buy out EE???
> 
> Maybe I missed something but I "interpreted" the news of the "merger" as RN acquiring EE.


Right, the announcement came from Dennis Bath, now President. Sooo...??


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

helencalif said:


> the clubs are paying EE 85-cents for every post card sent to you. You receive the post cards because your name and address was included on the mailing lists the clubs sent to Entry Express. The mailing lists were sent to EE probably the first year the club used Entry Express to handle its entries.
> 
> Helen Graves
> Always watching the clubs' cookie jars


Why don't the clubs just eliminate the mailing lists? IMO you don't need to notify people who've run your event for years and years and years. I was a Hunting Test Secretary for a couple of clubs for several years and was the first Sec. in our area to use EE. I never provided EE with a mailing list. It did require "training" in the early years to make people aware of EE.net. IMO people know to look at Entry Express to make their plans. Many people (like me) are looking at the entire summer of 2011 events to make plans now--so the postcards are unnecessary. Save some money!!

Addresses--aren't owner addresses the responsibility of the people who enter the dog and EE prints what is in the database? I agree that the addresses aren't always correct, but not sure what EE can do. I have found that the addresses provided for the judges in the front of the catalog are quite often incorrect too--and those come from the Club and/or from the AKC database. It's a problem and I'm not sure who can "fix it". A resource I use when mail is returned is switchboard.com. Most often I find the person by using the existing city/state and find he/she has a new street address.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Here are my thoughts-
The hunt test sec. job sucks.
The days of the last minute entry meant driving fast with cash or a check
to make it to the close before 5 on a Tuesday evening.
I seriously believe a great many typing on this very thread would not even
know how to do a manual random draw, legally, anymore.
I have been a test sec. Shayne came up with a good service.
I do not care if Shayne bought rftn or if they bought Shayne or if the both of um just snuggled up
in a warm embrace, 
Owen needs a new pair of shoes!
For a very long time my favorite game has been NAHRA Field Tests.
I chaired the ONLY Field Test using Entry Express. It was not cost effective
for EE and I had been trying for years to build our numbers up so we could use EE
I also supported NAHRA's building of a new web page because of the promise of electronic entries for our game.
That promise never came through. The rftn "merger" with EE was the last nail in the coffin for any hope
of EE/NAHRA entry service. So I still am forced to put pen to paper, buy a stamp and lick an envelope.
So to all you guys complaining, our NAHRA field tests are right here! The first, best, most copied hunt test game.
And it will only cost you the price of a stamp and a check above the entry cost to play.
And to rftn and the wonderful girls at EE and Shayne........
as you read the disgruntled masses typing, and I know you are.
With a smile on my face I offer this tease that Shayne will understand-
Nanner Nanner Bo Bo ;-)
.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

helencalif said:


> Hi Tammy,
> 
> Yes, we really do need those darn catalogs. AKC and Retriever News require catalogs for judges to sign for placements, JAMs, and for hunt tests: pass or fails. Catalogs contain the running order which everybody needs. No club can do away with catalogs to save money.
> 
> I doubt if many clubs today could get a club member to volunteer to prepare a catalog camera ready and then take it to a copy shop to have it printed and stapled. The old days are gone and, hopefully, they never come back. Every person who has ever been an Event Secretary in the old days, thanks EE for preparing and printing the catalogs.


Helen, 

Your trial had 250 dogs entered. 

EE new rates will be $4.50 per dog which comes to $1125.00 plus the 187 catalogs at $2.19 per catalog which is $409.53 for a total of $1534.53.

My suggestion to my home club will be to raise our entry fees $5.00 since no one here cares about $5. Keep the catalogs in house and NOT USE ANY ONLINE SERVICE! 

I will handle the catalogs and entries for $5 per dog which comes to $1250 plus the $409.53 for catalogs for a total of $1659.53, and, as in the old days when I was a hunt test secretary, print my own catalogs.

I'll even split the income with my club and we'll both make $829.77!!

*Oh BTW the events and RESULTS are already centrally located on the AKC website. Have been for years...... *

Try this link for results 

http://www.akc.org/events/search/index.cfm 

and this link for a calendar

http://www.akc.org/events/static/index.cfm


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Here are my thoughts-
> The hunt test sec. job sucks.
> 
> And to rftn and the wonderful girls at EE and Shayne........
> ...


Those who have never done the job of Hunting Test Secretary or Field Trial Secretary cannot begin to understand the joy of having a service like EE.net!! A typical catalog took me two weeks of all my "spare" time to key unreadable handwritten entries into a cumbersome database in order to prepare a running order catalog, and 3 more hours just to make the photocopies. And, then people would complain because I typed their dog's name incorrectly because I couldn't read their scribbling.

The King is dead. Long live the King!


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I've been FT sect'y for our club's HRC and NAHRA events more times than I can count.

I've done it in the pre-computer era, via eMail with no database, and with a prototype database system a professional DB manager built that he was willing to develop for NAHRA several years ago. (The NAHRA BoD wasn't interested at the time.) Even the prototype case was a job, but the old fashioned paper and pencil way is awful.

ShaYne built the "better mouse trap" based on people loving convenience fees. It has all the bells and whistles. I'd guess Owen is getting a new Farrari. 

No one wants to pay the fees, but none of them will volunteer to do it old fashioned way to save others the $.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Did EE buy out the other service or did the other service buy out EE???
> 
> Maybe I missed something but I "interpreted" the news of the "merger" as RN acquiring EE.
> 
> Maybe all this rain is just getting to me


Truthfully Vicky, I don't know who bought who; was just making the point that the new entity had expenses connected with merging the database of the defunct one; and those costs were passed on to the consumer. 

@ HiRollerLabs, clubs don't have to pay for the postcards; they're just one of EE's services you can choose to use....or not. When I was club/HT sec. I got rid of most of our club's; and pared our mailing list down to just people that I knew didn't use computers much. Of course the geniuses running this spring's test thought it necessary to have postcards sent to members, but that's club management stupidity, not EE's fault .


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

"It ain't the principle of the thing, it's the money!"
Don't recall who said that but a 50% increase is big jump. But now that EE has most folks hooked it's going to be hard to break that habit. 
Clubs could allow entrants to bypass EE and send printed entry forms and checks to the Sec'y, but they may not keep the sec'y for long. (Been there, done that, didn't get no T-shirt.)
BTW - The regs state "There should be only one address for paper entries . . ." Note that the use of "should" v "shall" does allow clubs the option. But entrants must follow the directions in the premium, so if the club elects to go 100% EE a mailed entry to the sec'y likely goes in the trash. 
I'd probably go back to writng the check and printing off my preprinted entry form but I doubt the wife - our perpetual HT Sec'y - would want to go back to "old days." Unless of course she could charge the $4.50 @.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

TBell said:


> Helen,
> 
> Your trial had 250 dogs entered.
> 
> ...



Are you angry or just bored?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)




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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Kyle B said:


> Are you angry or just bored?


Never have liked strong arm monopolies myself....doesn't bother you, huh?


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Driving to work today heard the old 90's tune "Things that make you go hmmmmmm!" To me this is what this whole entry deal is about, makes me go hummmmmmm,
1. Will a $1.50 keep me from entering a trial.......no, in the grand scheme $4.19 dollar diesel has me more worried than a few dollars while I am entering my boys, diesel will affect me far more driving 600 miles this weekend.
2. Seems to me we had several huge discussions of why we needed a second entry service, some folks thought group A was making way to much money on the entries so group B spent money to create a different service, now their is just one group C for entry service and now the price hike??? Doesn't make sense to me?? On one hand we were worried that one group was making too much money now when we only have one group the price goes up????
3. I think everyone who doesn't like the pay hike should boycott trials for the next two months!!! While you are all doing that I will be out there running and hopefully doing well. 

Cooking the Books Regards,

Aaron*


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Skipped through the last 4 pages of this whinning sniveling bs about a buck and a half. I dont like the increase but dont think it is out of line. Geez here is a guy just like all of us that has built a bussiness that benefits us all and you complain about a buck and a half.
Dont remember much complaining about clubs raising entry fees. Now it is $75 to $80 to enter an event. How much has that gone up in the last 5 or 10 years. The cost of fuel is 100 times more damaging to the wallet than a measely $1.50 EE is charging and you dont complain near as much about that. The cost of everything else in the world is rising and you guys pick on one of your own about $1.50. If the cost of fuel keeps going you wont have to worry about the $1.50 or the $80 entry fee. It is already severly limiting me on what I can enter.
Shayne where are you? Step up here and lets hear your side of the story. Actually you dont have to defend yourself on this. Just shut EE down for a couple months and see how people like that.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I suggest they sub it out to some toothless guy in India to keep the costs down.

Pete


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Koolaide anyone?


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I just sat down and added up what I spent on pro training for one dog that ran 19 trials last year, plus the entry and handling fees. Then I estimated how much I spent on running and training the dog that I mostly train, except for the winter trip. Then I added up what the extra $1.50/entry would run me. It would barely pay for a decent meal. It's not even a blip on the radar screen.

I am assuming that it was the national club that bought out EE. Don't forget, now we have to help them pay the development costs for the system that they set up to compete against EE. I have been involved in bringing in outside developers to write big software packages before. It ain't cheap, in fact it's freak'in expensive. I think the competition between RFT and EE really benefited the consumer for awhile, especially the big trucks. Now it's time to pay the piper...

If ya don't like it, all ya gotta do is step up and volunteer to be event secretary, and do it the old fashion way! 

I'm trying really hard to learn not to sweat the small stuff.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Howard N said:


> Also, if there are errors in the catalog, aren't they caused by people making mistakes when they send the info in? EE doesn't make up the info.


I don't need to go into details but no. It's a programming error. In fact, it's really just a programmer's oversight.

When I first wrote and advised EE of the issue, some dolly that couldn't write "Print "Hello World'" responded and said the program was correct and that they'd worked so hard on it to get it just right. Basically, I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about. I wrote again and was told that this was a very difficult program to write and that after months of testing, yada, yada, yada. (The change requires a new counter and printing the counter if the counter exceeds "0".....just like a half dozen other counters that already exist. It's a nothing change if they had a programmer that was above the apprentice level.)

I since wrote twice to Shane and received no response to either. What the episode has shown me is that EE just doesn't care about the correctness of their product.

Eric


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Go back to the old way... Like anyone knows how that works???
> 
> I will pay that $4.50 surcharge on any entry any day...
> 
> Angie


Me too!

I used to accept entries, prepare catalogs and look for the cheapest printer...EE was a bargain. It probably still is with the costs all rising for everything.

Also, do you trust the US postmaster to get your entry in on time...not me. I mail checks etc everyday and many do not arrive within 2-3 days locally. And if you use UPS, there goes you 4.50 that you were trying to save...


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I am not happy about it, but the truth of the matter is that it pales in comparison with the $75 I waste every stake just to go home after the first series.

I did the HT secretary thing back in the paper days and can't imagine anyone doing it these days. I think the benefits to the club of having someone actually agree to be secretary would far outweigh the losses of a few entries of people so hacked off they don't enter, but may be wrong.

Now if the merger results in those terrible square RTE catalogs that won't fit in your back pocket, that would really be a catastrophic change.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Ah well, quite the brouhaha we have going here. I think it is too bad that in the end, everything we enjoy doing is costing more because more profit is being squeezed out of less employment. The $1.50 hasn't ended trials for me this year, but the cost of gas to go training and the lack of employment/income has. Good luck to all this year, your going to need it.


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## sinner (Oct 21, 2007)

I thought I got on POTUS with all the comments!


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I seem to remember someone making sure we all knew the scoop when RN got accussed of helping themselves to EE copyright material and how dirty the bully was dealing with the favorite originator of entry services. Who's side are you on?

What happened now? Was a gag order placed on that someone? Maybe some duct tape around the typing finger? Or is the business now just agreeable. Who was really in charge? 

All in all none of that really has much to do with dogs. Well except to once again re-inforce why they are so special! HPW


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

TBell said:


> Never have liked strong arm monopolies myself....doesn't bother you, huh?


Actually it doesn't bother me. The reality of my situation is that we run probably 20 or so trials a year, I have 2 dogs currently in competition. They are usually running the Open and the Amateur, so 4 x 20 x 1.50 is $120 per year. Now to further that, I am notorious for not entering until the day before or the day of a trial, so I've been spending that already since they put in the "late clause)"so it really has little to no affect on what I'm currently spending. But honestly, I spent that 2 weeks ago sitting in Faunsdale, Alabama on the Saturday night of a cattle ranch trial on beer and crawfish and didn't blink an eye over it. 

EE does an incredible job. Great customer service, great product and as a Field Trial Secretary, entries and the headaches associated with them are a passing thought or a fart in the wind. What you are proposing taking on would (IMO) have very little gain for yourself or the club that you were doing it for and put an excessive drain on the thing that we all complain about the most, people resources. 

I think you are making a big stink over nothing.


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## choch2odog (Feb 8, 2005)

For those clubs considering a "do it yourself approach". Not even considering the amount of work associated with the event. How are you ging to advertise your event. Most people simply click on EE site. Look at the locals and dates. If yours isn't listed there, chances are your going to have a smaller entry.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Good grief. I can't believe anyone is bitching about $1.50. Even if you run two dogs once every single weekend of the year, you will be paying $156 more per year. If you don't go to Starbucks the morning of the test you'll save more than that. Everyone loved the service until it cost them something. People-nothing in life is free....


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Maybe you guys should have created a poll for this one. Would be interesting...


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## sinner (Oct 21, 2007)

choch2odog said:


> For those clubs considering a "do it yourself approach". Not even considering the amount of work associated with the event. How are you ging to advertise your event. Most people simply click on EE site. Look at the locals and dates. If yours isn't listed there, chances are your going to have a smaller entry.


Smaller entry? Wow now there is a great idea!
Right Ted?:BIG:


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Kyle B said:


> EE does an incredible job. Great customer service, great product and as a Field Trial Secretary, entries and the headaches associated with them are a passing thought or a fart in the wind.


Ditto, this discussion is truly a tempest in a teapot

Penny Wise and Pound Foolish Regards.....;-)


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Thank you EE for the awesome service you provide to clubs and participants. You have always be there for all of our needs. We are grateful to continue supporting you and we appreciate the product and service you provide back. 

Shayne, through the merger/buyout, I hope you were at least able to buy Owen his first .22 and shotgun (yeah, and some diapers too)!!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

So wait, if the two are now one, doesn't that mean more business for the one? In that case I am not sure I understand the need to charge more. Volume should mean increased income for EE so in addition to more overall entries, they are charging an extra $1.50, sounds like this merger is good business all the way around. If McDonalds bought Burger King would the raise the price of all their sandwiches?


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## weebegoldens (Jan 25, 2005)

This isn't a matter of adding 1.50 per entry. 

The problem is some people did still snail mail entries to save money. Now you take that option away. EE is not only charging the club for the service they are now charging the contestant(double dipping) in my mind. They also can raise this fee (as we have seen) when ever they want. As it went from 3.00 to 4.50. 

So the club is loosing control of what the clubs entry fees are to be.

What is really funny to me(a data geek) is that fact that as a contestant - I enter the info online (Dog Info) filing in the EE DataBase. It is my responsibility that the data is correctly .. They just print out results.. So I am paying for ME to do Data Entry. New concept in Business model. Customer does all the work and company just print a bill and charges them for it.

Heck next they will be charging contestants for Catalogs like the do in obed/agility/breed. opps maybe I just have them a new idea.... 

I do know AKC can be the secretary for agility.. maybe we should push them to do field events and just get clubs to use akc for sec. that would be best solution. and contact your own club to not use EE as a service.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> . If McDonalds bought Burger King would the raise the price of all their sandwiches?


But this is more like Company A with 95% market share merging with Company B with 5% market share who has been losing money for several years. Maybe it is necessary to replace the red ink with black....;-)

And I can look up events, results, and records in one location without ever entering a field trial and do it for free!


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Between Terry and I we are now or have been Hunt Test Secretary more times that I am willing to disclose. I'll put this in print so no one will have to worry about proof later. If I am HTS and you send me a paper entry expecting that I will put that in an envelope and fast forward that to EE- you are about to get a new pen pal. Some poor DA named "or Current Occupant" in Left Elbow Arkabama is going to have your contact info and a check that he isn't going to know what to do with.
THe US mail ain't that reliable sometimes.
For those that "wont pay it" I'm thinking that you will also ask them to disable your user account - presumably on the odd occaisions when you want to check on your running order or see who else is coming or God forbid that you heard from our old friend "Current occupant" in time and still wanted to enter or you wanted to check on the performance rocord of a given dog or on an on an on. 
This stuff ain't free and convenience ALWAYS has a price. Ever notice the difference in price between a Biggo Mac and the equivalent price of horsemeat?
Costs you more to start that $50K diesel pickup than we are talking here.

Got better things to worry about regards

Bubba


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Julie R. said:


> @ HiRollerLabs, clubs don't have to pay for the postcards; they're just one of EE's services you can choose to use....or not. When I was club/HT sec. I got rid of most of our club's; and pared our mailing list down to just people that I knew didn't use computers much. Of course the geniuses running this spring's test thought it necessary to have postcards sent to members, but that's club management stupidity, not EE's fault .


Agree--the optional mailing lists are a waste of club money IMO and I never used them.

Breck posted that checking the box in the "Add to My Events" column triggers the postcard. If this is correct and the club is charged $.85 for it then I'm taking all the checkmarks off!

Maybe we can get RN to make some of the changes we are discussing here, including replacing the postcards with emails.

Regardless of the "issues" with EE.net, I would never want to go back to producing my own catalog. It was very time consuming, expensive to print, and dealing with all the paper forms was a nightmare. Thank goodness for Shayne, Dave Didier, the EE.net people, RN people and everyone else who was involved in automating the entry process!

Is the club required to produce a catalog? I know we are all accustomed to having a running order catalog, but is it required by the AKC?


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## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

I just wonder why the Entrepreneur has not surfaced even though they have been on RTF already today.....we can see last activity time.....


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Lucky Number Seven said:


> I just wonder why the Entrepreneur has not surfaced even though they have been on RTF already today.....we can see last activity time.....


Keep in mind the Entrepreneur is not the primary owner as I understand it, only part owner. Shayne may be the most outspoken of the owners of EE, but he is not the only one.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

Lucky Number Seven said:


> I just wonder why the Entrepreneur has not surfaced even though they have been on RTF already today.....we can see last activity time.....


Why is he supposed to "surface"? Does he owe someone an explanation? Do we need to have a press conference? A Podcast? A group hug? Seriously? Do you know what the Entrepreneur has gone through during the battle of the entry services? (Oh sorry, battle of the catalog services. My bad.)

BTW, "they" is a "he." I just wonder what's going to happen to all those t-shirts left in inventory.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

helencalif said:


> Yes, Judy, the clubs are paying EE 85-cents for every post card sent to you. You receive the post cards because your name and address was included on the mailing lists the clubs sent to Entry Express. The mailing lists were sent to EE probably the first year the club used Entry Express to handle its entries.
> 
> If you don't want to receive post cards from clubs notifying you of their hunt test dates, judges, deadlines, etc. ... please contact the various club's hunt test secretary. Go to Entry Express and look up the last hunt test the club had. It will list contact information for the HT Secretary. Write... phone ... or email the HT Secretary and asked to be removed from their mailing list. You will save the clubs money and the aggravation you feel when the post cards arrive.
> 
> ...


You can stipulate that EE doesn't send post cards. You can also request that they send a certain number of programs.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Why is he supposed to "surface"? Does he owe someone an explanation? Do we need to have a press conference? A Podcast? A group hug? Seriously? Do you know what the Entrepreneur has gone through during the battle of the entry services? (Oh sorry, battle of the catalog services. My bad.)
> 
> BTW, "they" is a "he." I just wonder what's going to happen to all those t-shirts left in inventory.


 
that retriever news Mark Koenig feller is brand new with only 6 rtf posts so I feel it would be best for all...........
If we Blame Him!!!!!
Been tossin dung at Shayne for years we all have, time for fresh meat!
Welcome to RTF Mark 



.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

EdA said:


> Ditto, this discussion is truly a tempest in a teapot
> 
> Penny Wise and Pound Foolish Regards.....;-)


I'm with Kyle and Ed. While I never like the idea of prices being raised on anything, I don't have much of a problem with this one. I do think folks have a legitimate gripe when it comes to having to use EE soley or at least pay the fee, however, it's still better than the alternative by a long shot IMO. I don't miss having to mail entries at all. I think EE is a great service and will continue to use it and pay the extra $1.50 with a smile.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Our club has already entered into an agreement with EE for the spring and the fall trials. This should mean that anyone entering these two trials should only pay the entry fee plus the EE fee that was in effect prior to the new fee. Not to mention the trial was already finalized and approved by the AKC.

That being said next year clubs should have entry's sent to the field trial sec and do there own draw and go back to Office Max or Kinkos and have the programs done. EE will still take and send those entry's of the people that wish to enter using EE. That's why they have an early close early for some trials. They send the entries Fed X to the FT sec to be there by the close.
It is our choice.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> Why is he supposed to "surface"? Does he owe someone an explanation? Do we need to have a press conference? A Podcast? A group hug? Seriously? Do you know what the Entrepreneur has gone through during the battle of the entry services? (Oh sorry, battle of the catalog services. My bad.)
> 
> BTW, "they" is a "he." I just wonder what's going to happen to all those t-shirts left in inventory.


This is exactly right. Not to mention the fact that the Mans Mother-In-Law just passed away. For crying out loud...

I am much more concerned with $75 entry fee's, $4.00 gas, hotel rooms and food costs to run my dog than this $1.50. I only ran 5 or 6 EE events last year but I always paid the $4.50 fee anyway because I'm a natural procrastinator 

I will be happy to pay $4.50 to be able to enter an event by spending 2 minutes on EE rather than having to fill out an entry by hand, write a check (which I rarely do anymore), put in in an envelope, find a stamp (because who uses snail mail anymore?) and remember to mail it early enough that it shows up at it's destination in time for the entry to be valid.

Of all the things costs associated with running dogs, I can't get over how tied in knots so many are over this.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Given the fact that the AKC can toss fines etc at show clubs for things as trivial as not giving the same prize as listed in the premium, I'd think they'd have a hay day on this one since the EE fees are listed in the premium as the "pre-merger" fees. 

Very bad business, imo, EE.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

Barry said:


> That being said next year clubs should have entry's sent to the field trial sec and do there own draw and go back to Office Max or Kinkos and have the programs done. EE will still take and send those entry's of the people that wish to enter using EE. That's why they have an early close early for some trials. They send the entries Fed X to the FT sec to be there by the close.
> It is our choice.


Barry,

For some reason, I have a knack for calculus and physics, but not so much for geometry. Can you explain what you mean by this?

EE would have an early close why? From what we have all read, entries submitted via postal mail to EE will still be subject to the service charge, no....?


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

It's funny that the reason the fee was raised in the first place was to hopfully lower the last minute entry and to keep trial size down. Guess that was a crock. How many of you bought that?

For those of you that really don't care about the pay hike for EE. I guess you really don't mind the cost of entry's going out of site either. Because you haven't seen the last of it. One of the problems is that less people are entering trials. Trial size is down. I judged out in CA last month for a club that used to have entries in the 250 was for the second time down to 120.

The economy is going to hurt us even more. Now gas is going to get us again. I would think that some clubs will have to start doing more leg work to save more money. EE is a luxury for the clubs.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> Barry,
> 
> For some reason, I have a knack for calculus and physics, but not so much for geometry. Can you explain what you mean by this?
> 
> EE would have an early close why? From what we have all read, entries submitted via postal mail to EE will still be subject to the service charge, no....?


EE always had an early close for those trial that didn't use EE. One good example was the clubs that used the Retriever News service. Same for the Cheasapeke Club that has there own web site. Also Treasure State that does the old school method. These are still posted on EE with an early close to get the entry's to the club sec by the trial close.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Rick_C said:


> T....
> I am much more concerned with $75 entry fee's, $4.00 gas, hotel rooms and food costs to run my dog than this $1.50. I only ran 5 or 6 EE events last year but I always paid the $4.50 fee anyway because I'm a natural procrastinator
> 
> ....


I don't think it's a big deal either but I think everyone is just fed up with everything increasing (not just hunt test costs) while income stays the same and in many cases goes down.

Straw and camel regards,


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

Barry said:


> EE always had an early close for those trial that didn't use EE. One good example was the clubs that used the Retriever News service. Same for the Cheasapeke Club that has there own web site. Also Treasure State that does the old school method. These are still posted on EE with an early close to get the entry's to the club sec by the trial close.


But the closing date/time is not determined by EE, right? It's determined by the club. If we get entries to the club via postal mail by the close date, we're gold (no pun intended:razz. Why would one send a postal mail entry to EE when a service charge would still be charged? 

Barry, throw me a bone. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here but I'm sleep deprived right now.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Given the fact that the AKC can toss fines etc at show clubs for things as trivial as not giving the same prize as listed in the premium, I'd think they'd have a hay day on this one .


As Marvin would say "the ruling class" has probably got all of the bases covered....


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

EdA said:


> But this is more like Company A with 95% market share merging with Company B with 5% market share who has been losing money for several years. Maybe it is necessary to replace the red ink with black....;-)
> 
> And I can look up events, results, and records in one location without ever entering a field trial and do it for free!


Don't get me wrong, I do and will continue to use EE


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> But the closing date/time is not determined by EE, right? It's determined by the club. If we get entries to the club via postal mail by the close date, we're gold (no pun intended:razz. Why would one send a postal mail entry to EE when a service charge would still be charged?
> 
> Barry, throw me a bone. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here but I'm sleep deprived right now.


Closing date and time is determined by the club. EE closes early to get there enteries there before that close. Weather or not someone wants to enter using EE by sending them the check and entry or by credit card is up to them. Not to smart if you can send the same entry to the FT sec for free.

If you get your check and entry to the club by the close however it gets there you are GOLD. As only you could be!

I think that the Cheasapeke club offers credit card services on their site also.


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Did some checking with the legal folk and found as suspected that the "service charge" is not going to fly in several states! Their opinion is that by adding a service charge to all entries EE has in fact become a ticket scalper! Several states do not allow any service fee on event entries and several more limit that service fee to a certain value, $3.00 being the most common. Other states require the "reseller/agent" to register with them and pay certain fees. Illinois requires a $100,000 deposit to cover any customer complaints. Florida only allows a $1 service fee on certain resold entries. Several states require that a web reseller/agents of entries must have specific language on their websites. And a couple states require that any reseller to an event in their state have a permanent physical office in that state. Many states have laws requiring that equal access be permitted to entries at the published entry rate such that resellers can not purchase or sell out an event. 

Note reseller is used here as reseller is defined as someone "selling an entry to an event with a service charge resulting in an amount above the posted and published entry price." Agent is used as someone who is acting in behalf of the event producer. 

In my perspective, if EE needs more money to continue, it should just raise its fee to the clubs rather than putting itself in something as convoluted as charging service fees to the entrants for providing the job of event secretary that the clubs were paying them to do. 

And yes, I have been an event secretary for more events than I can count, so know the time and effort that must be expended to get the job done. (wish I got $4.50 for every entry I processed!)

T. Mac


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

Barry said:


> If you get your check and entry to the club by the close however it gets there you are GOLD. As only you could be!


I so knew we were on the same page. :razz: But thanks for clarifying, I figured I must have been reading something wrong.


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

EdA said:


> But this is more like Company A with 95% market share merging with Company B with 5% market share who has been losing money for several years. Maybe it is necessary to replace the red ink with black....;-)
> 
> And I can look up events, results, and records in one location without ever entering a field trial and do it for free!



Actually it is sounding more like company B buying out company A and trying to offset their years of losses to appease their shareholders. Most company A's do not merge or buy out the company B's in your illustration as their is no point in doing so. They gain nothing by the deal, unless company B has some deep pockets. 

And you could look up results and calenders on AKC's site way before EE came along. The only difference is that their update of results is delayed until they get the hard copy, signed catalog from the event secretary. And AKC's site has always been free for event look ups. 

T. Mac


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## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

This thread is very entertaining: So some random thoughts thrown together to not make sense.....

1.50 price hike Oh MY!! As I read it enjoying my 1.25 bottle of water out of a machine.
Duck prices went up 2.00 dollars, chukar are now at 9.00
Burning out the club volunteers year after year or simply writing a check.... which one is better? Burn your vols and kiss your club good by!

Have any of you broke ass people who bitch about the economy sucks, drove by a casino lately? Amazing what PEOPLE have money for....
Oh, I would complain about the 1.50 also it is horrendous, but I have to go buy my weekly carton of smokes for over 40.00, a case of bud (cause I have to have it), and I check this site on my IPOD, IPAD, crap PAD, internet, highspeed gizmo that I pay for monthly. I have to go train now so I am going to crawl into my 30,000 dollar truck, load my dogs, wingers, shotgun, waders, ducks, bumpers, whistles, primers, bumper boys, max 5000, decoys and put a deposit down on a pirate pup for 500.00. The good news is once I am all loaded up I will rush out to the training grounds and complain with the rest of the trainers out there about a 1.50.
Question: How do you all hunt within the law if the price of a federal stamp, state license goes up? Do you not buy it and ...... take your chances??
YOU PAY FOR CONVENIENCE, the people who run EE have to make a living also. Think dogs are expensive, take up golf, no wait get your pilots license.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I personnally blame Entry Express for World Hunger, global cooling/heating, corrupt governments and dogs that eat birds.... Although it won't stop me from entering my pup in a HT with it!  I like that it remembers me too!~


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

T. Mac said:


> And you could look up results and calenders on AKC's site way before EE came along.


My experience was that it was largely inaccurate in part due to the fact the FTS had to wade through a ridiculously complicated and user non-friendly program to set up the trial and it was not listed until finalized including the judge's panel, No Thanks. 

I was FTS for awhile then and my former spouse for many years when there was no on-line service of any kind, all paper and USPS. Oh yeah, don't forget the printing and mailing of the premiums......


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Just bought a bottled water and a bag of ice.......$4.83...........for 2cents worth of WATER.......If it were not for this thread,I would have never even thought about it......Thanks.....haha


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

To those of you who say it's only a $1.50 increase and laugh at people who don't like it; do you say that about everything that goes up in price? 

So what if orange juice goes up $1 and the container size goes down? It's better than me squeezing oranges myself!

So what if a dozen eggs go up 50 cents? It's better than me raising chickens!

So what if a bag of chips (was 16 oz, now 9.5 ounces) goes up 40 cents? I'm not going to make them myself!

Keep thinking that way and get back to me in twenty years when you'll be eating from your $180 bag of Pro Plan along with Fido!


----------



## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

EdA said:


> I was FTS for awhile then and my former spouse for many years when there was no on-line service of any kind, all paper and USPS. Oh yeah, don't forget the printing and mailing of the premiums......


That stuff was just the run of the mill PITA. It was the bad checks, illegible entry forms and people freaking out about not being entered when they showed up because their entries were late (and you always gave a huge grace period to avoid this) that caused me to tell my club to find a bigger idiot to do it.

As a handler, I am sure I spent more in fedex fees required by my procrastinating than this increase will cost me.


----------



## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

sandyg said:


> To those of you who say it's only a $1.50 increase and laugh at people who don't like it; do you say that about everything that goes up in price?
> 
> So what if orange juice goes up $1 and the container size goes down? It's better than me squeezing oranges myself!
> 
> ...



X2 We just keep taking it they will just keep sticking it to us!!!!


----------



## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

There is nothing cheap about this dog training / competing hobby... Yes, for the vast majority of us, it is a hobby. There are many other hobbies that I have that are both cheaper and more expensive. I can't afford do to all of them as much as I would like so I cut back on the ones that aren't as important to me and I give more to the ones that are more important... Gotta pay to play....


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> That stuff was just the run of the mill PITA. It was the bad checks, illegible entry forms and people freaking out about not being entered when they showed up because their entries were late (and you always gave a huge grace period to avoid this) that caused me to tell my club to find a bigger idiot to do it.
> 
> As a handler, I am sure I spent more in fedex fees required by my procrastinating than this increase will cost me.


x2 Amen... How about the late night calls from handlers wondering if you got their entries. Or having to sit around all day on closing day waiting for the multiple deliveries from fedex with last minute entries. And lets not forget the phone calls from forgetful handlers begging you to take a late entry.

Of all the things to gripe about I don't think this is one. If you don't like it send in a paper entry and pray it doesn't get lost in the mail.

Angie


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

EdA said:


> I was FTS for awhile then and my former spouse for many years when there was no on-line service of any kind, all paper and USPS. Oh yeah, don't forget the printing and mailing of the premiums......


And let's not forget either what it was like before the Dow and rotation.
I have had anonymous hate mail....


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Angie B said:


> And lets not forget the phone calls from forgetful handlers begging you to take a late entry.
> Angie


I think I would use the word, demanding..Or else.....;-)


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> I think I would use the word, demanding..Or else.....;-)


Pretty much... And weren't they just lovely to you at the next trial you saw them??? No Thanks!!!

Angie


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## birdthrower51 (Aug 23, 2004)

I am known for last minute entries, so the announcement of $4.50 was not a big concern. 
What I do know, is that many, including myself, like the ease of entering the dogs with EE. I also can find the results of the trials, the history of any dog entered, including placements, etc. 
I think EE does a great job & I thank them for making my life easier!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

T. Mac said:


> They gain nothing by the deal, unless company B has some deep pockets.


BINGO!....I think we may have a winner


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

As a HT Secty., I can say you get more than you are paying for with entry express. The customer service is exemplerary. For those who choose to complain-remember-there are a lot of behind the scenes things done so that you can run your test/trial. A small increase in entry fees is a very small price to pay for your to be able to drive in and blissfully run your dog.

M


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

LOL 

$5,000 per IRS standard in truck mileage
$1,000 in feed
$200 equipment
$500 Birds
$400 in vet bills assuming no injuries
$300 heartworm and flea preventitive
$750 actual entry fees in say 10 events yearly

AND I'M WORRIED ABOUT $45??

Really? I'm going to mail entries over a total $10 per year increaswe in service fees?


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

T. Mac said:


> *Did some checking with the legal folk and found as suspected that the "service charge" is not going to fly in several states! Their opinion is that by adding a service charge to all entries EE has in fact become a ticket scalper! Several states do not allow any service fee on event entries and several more limit that service fee to a certain value, $3.00 being the most common. Other states require the "reseller/agent" to register with them and pay certain fees*. Illinois requires a $100,000 deposit to cover any customer complaints. Florida only allows a $1 service fee on certain resold entries. Several states require that a web reseller/agents of entries must have specific language on their websites. And a couple states require that any reseller to an event in their state have a permanent physical office in that state. Many states have laws requiring that equal access be permitted to entries at the published entry rate such that resellers can not purchase or sell out an event.
> 
> Note reseller is used here as reseller is defined as someone "selling an entry to an event with a service charge resulting in an amount above the posted and published entry price." Agent is used as someone who is acting in behalf of the event producer.
> 
> ...


Interesting, PM sent.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

DoubleHaul said:


> ...I am sure I spent more in fedex fees required by my procrastinating than this increase will cost me.


GRRRR
For many years our club worked hard to keep entry fees as low as we could.

Then someone would spend $15 to send a last minute entry... And probably complain about the high entry fee at the test...

EE is build on the love folks have to pay convenience fees. Pay away you lovers.


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

So I'll ask again,

Is it within the rules to change fees on a listed premium, on an event that is already open, with entries being accepted before the change? 

With the rulebook stating:


> SECTION 9. Any field trial-giving club which accepts
> an entry fee other than that published in its premium list
> or entry form, or in any way discriminates between​entrants, shall be disciplined.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

From the EE website, isn't this just_ l-o-v-e-l-y_.
Is the AKC VIP program right for you? (_Sounds like it would be. But I guess all the amateurs who put on these events aren't considered very important)._

Our AKC VIP program is exclusively for our high volume AKC handlers. Designed with the Pro trainer in mind, handlers can enter ANY field trial or hunt test online for the discount rate of $2.00 per entry. You can enter EntryExpress events as late as the day the event closes, without paying online. EntryExpress will send your entry fees on your behalf. You have until the event starts to submit payment, via check, to us.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Losthwy said:


> From the EE website, isn't this just_ l-o-v-e-l-y_.
> Is the AKC VIP program right for you? (_Sounds like it would be. But I guess all the amateurs who put on these events aren't considered very important)._
> 
> Our AKC VIP program is exclusively for our high volume AKC handlers. Designed with the Pro trainer in mind, handlers can enter ANY field trial or hunt test online for the discount rate of $2.00 per entry. You can enter EntryExpress events as late as the day the event closes, without paying online. EntryExpress will send your entry fees on your behalf. You have until the event starts to submit payment, via check, to us.


I do believe this has gone away - website isn't updated...


----------



## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

TimThurby said:


> So I'll ask again,
> 
> Is it within the rules to change fees on a listed premium, on an event that is already open, with entries being accepted before the change?
> 
> With the rulebook stating:



Yep, this premium has changed since this morning. It NOW SAYS:

Lincoln Trail Retriever Club 2011 Spring Trial

mail entries and make checks payable to:
Entry Express Inc 
P.O. Box 743
420 East Main St (UPS & FedEx) 
Charleston AR 72933 

Mailed entries MUST include the $4.50 Adminstrative Fee per entry

Administrative Fee of $4.50 for ALL entries

Entries will close at 11:59 PM Central Time on 04/25/2011

RULES ARE MADE TO BE BROKEN, STRETCHED AND BENT especially when everything is online and no longer actually in print.

Too bad the National Clubs don't have something more productive to do for the sport with their deep pockets.......


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

Yeah that is what I was wondering. All premiums have been changed by EE.net, some after entries have been accepted. But it will be ultimately the club at fault not EE.net for changing the premium after the fact.

Especially since the rulebook also says:


> Any service fee imposed by the online
> entry service must be clearly stated in the premium list. All​online entry instructions should be clearly written.


and


> Note: When a Club elects to use an entry service, the Club
> is still ultimately responsible for ensuring that the AKC
> Performance Events Department is provided premium lists
> prior to the event and that the Rules pertaining to premium​lists are followed.


----------



## Bob Walton (Jan 1, 2007)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the actual entry fees for events going up this year. It sure looks like most of the $70-$75 entries are now $80 +. It costs more to put on events and it's not getting any cheaper.
If any AG rules against the service fee for EE , I'm sure it will just get passed on to the clubs in increased catalog fees or another fee and guess what ? Your $80 entry becomes $85 next year for the club to break even.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

With all the time yall have spent bitching on this thread you could have earned enough to pay the additional fee for the next ten years. If that little bit, even added up over several dogs and multiple events, is going to make or break or even buy you more than a nice dinner you probably should take up a cheaper hobby.
Come on, do any of you own a boat or golf?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think EE is great and we've gotten used to the luxury of having it. You know who's back and who placed often shortly after the contestants. You can enter on closing day at midnight if you want. Already knowing who's entered too.

The Field Trial community is getting smaller all the time. There used to be way more people to spread the work around to. It's hard to find members to work at a trial. The serious people that are left are interested in training their dogs, not paperwork. 

Who in your club would take the entries, make the catalog and have it printed? More than one time anyway.

Looked at your cable bill lately?


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I have a better idea :idea: let's do a little AKC-bashing. For those of you active in your clubs, how come no one is bothered by the whopper of an increase the AKC levled on us last year for recording fees? This is the per-dog fee the sec. has to send in with the official results at the conclusion of the event. Can't remember exactly but it went from something like $2 per dog to $3.50 per dog. Do the math on how much that costs clubs for 200 entries. Now *THERE* is a fee that we in the retriever world get exactly zero benefit from. But hey, AKC is letting mutts can run in agility and rally!! Woo hooo!!


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

Exactly, as i pointed out earlier, one can specify NO post cards and XXX number of catalogs. Just have to make this clear to EE when one posts an event.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> I have a better idea :idea: let's do a little AKC-bashing. For those of you active in your clubs, how come no one is bothered by the whopper of an increase the AKC levled on us last year for recording fees? This is the per-dog fee the sec. has to send in with the official results at the conclusion of the event. Can't remember exactly but it went from something like $2 per dog to $3.50 per dog. Do the math on how much that costs clubs for 200 entries. Now *THERE* is a fee that we in the retriever world get exactly zero benefit from. But hey, AKC is letting mutts can run in agility and rally!! Woo hooo!!


Like I said,,, try registering a litter or a dog online.. Cha Ching... $25 thank you!! Really???

Angie


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Angie B said:


> Go back to the old way... Like anyone knows how that works???
> 
> I will pay that $4.50 surcharge on any entry any day...
> 
> Angie



Thats because *YOURE*not paying it your HT clients are, big difference.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Salary of the US President...$400,000,
Salary of retired US Presidents...$180,000,
Salary of House/Senate...$174,000,
Salary of Speaker of House...$223,500,
Salary of Majority/Minority Leaders...$193,400,
EntryExpress Price Gouging ...$4.50

Average US Salary...$33,000 to $77,000.


HELLO! I think we found where the cuts should be made! 

and if that ain't bad enough he went and reproduced so wait till the college fund kicks in.....











Sadly there is more whining and crying in this thread over nothing than his kid probably cried all year realizing he's already smarter than dad......

/Paul


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

After having thought about it, I don't have a problem with the change. I almost always enter at the last minute, and the convenience and consolidated data that comes with this deal is totally worth it. If they drive it up in 6 months, my opinion may change. :lol:


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> Apparently Shane hasn't seen the thread yet. Someone PM him so we can fully understand where the money is going?


Wouldn't surprise me he gets a cut. Remember the late fee? It didn't go to the clubs that's for sure.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Losthwy said:


> Wouldn't surprise me he gets a cut. Remember the late fee? It didn't go to the clubs that's for sure.


 
Dude that's a little harsh!


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> Apparently Shane hasn't seen the thread yet. Someone PM him so we can fully understand where the money is going?


For the love of gawd, why is Shayne responsible for answering these questions? The email notification was signed by DENNIS BATH. Ask him.

And you'd think after all these years of such prestige, you all would know how to spell his name. It's not rocket scientist, people.

ps Shayne, still waiting on the long sleeved black one, 50% lycra. Thanks.


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Todd Caswell said:


> Don't run but belong to and train with a HRC club, last year we went with EE, and it took some doing to get them to go that direction, fast forward to monday night meeting, not looking good for EE this year, affraid of lossing entries from people that are not familar with AKC, back to the old way of mail and walk up's.. If they were ever looking to cash in on the HRC clubs, this is not the way to do it... Apparently Shane hasn't seen the thread yet. *Someone PM him so we can fully understand where the money is going*?


Since when do, or should, any privately held companies explain "where the money went"? Are you serious?


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> For the love of gawd, why is Shayne responsible for answering these questions? The email notification was signed by DENNIS BATH. Ask him.
> 
> And you'd think after all these years of such prestige, you all would know how to spell his name. It's not rocket scientist, people.
> 
> ps Shayne, still waiting on the long sleeved black one, 50% lycra. Thanks.


 
I believe you meant science. lol


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

1st retriever said:


> I believe you meant science. lol


Did that typo really make you "lol"?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

frankly her correcting you made me snicker vigorously.....
though I am easily amused
　
.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> Did that typo really make you "lol"?


Considering that you jump on everyone else for typos, ummm yeah.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

and besides you two, 
EVERYONE knows that on RTF we type "Rocket Sugary" since 
when the greatness of LVL combined brain surgery and rocket science in one swell foop!!!
bonus points for anyone that can name Jerry's nickname for LVL
　
.


----------



## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

1st retriever said:


> Considering that you jump on everyone else for typos, ummm yeah.


Yeah I may jump on "them" for typos, but you didn't answer my question. Did it really make you LOL. Simple question.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> Yeah I may jump on "them" for typos, but you didn't answer my question. Did it really make you LOL. Simple question.


No it didn't. I was trying to be nice but I see that went well. It is impossible to get on your good side. Actually I really highly doubt you have a good side from everything I have heard.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> No it didn't. I was trying to be nice but I see that went well. It is impossible to get on your good side. Actually I really highly doubt you have a good side from everything I have heard.


I can tell you one thing, she sure isn't into gay cowboys.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> I can tell you one thing, she sure isn't into gay cowboys.


Yeah I heard she swings the other way.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

1st retriever said:


> Yeah I heard she swings the other way.


so.... straight cowboys?
what's wrong with that?
.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> so.... straight cowboys?
> what's wrong with that?
> .


 
Sorry meant the OTHER other way.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Does anyone else sense a match made in heaven? Sometimes it falls right into our laps.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

1st retriever said:


> Sorry meant the OTHER other way.





1st retriever said:


> Dude that's a little harsh!





...........


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> ...........


Love me some Bora.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> Does anyone else sense a match made in heaven? Sometimes it falls right into our laps.



It's not comming to mind right now, but please elaborate, most of us would love to stay up late listing to Melanie's late night stories.................................................................................


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> ...........


 
Have you noticed she starts stuff all the time? No wonder she was banned.


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Jello fight!? 



:twisted:


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

helencalif said:


> Dustin,
> 
> That super nice catalog EE prints is not free. Entry Express charges the club $2.19 for every catalog they print.
> 
> ...


The cost of the catalogs is recovered by the entry fees. The cost of the catalog has nothing to do with the cost of the computer entry on Entry Express.

Joe O'Brien


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> Yeah I heard she swings the other way.


Hmmm...I heard differently. 

1st...that's way out of line.


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## Cynthia Tallman (Jul 25, 2006)

What gnaws at me about the increase is that it has been applied to events that are open and have already accepted entries and the premium was changed after entries were accepted. It just seems wrong to change the price mid stream without notice. It is one thing to increase a fee in the future events that have not accepted entries. But it strikes me as unethical and wrong, maybe even illegal, to charge some folks $3.00 and others $4.50 without notice for the same event and not entering at the last minute.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

KNorman said:


> Hmmm...I heard differently.
> 
> 1st...that's way out of line.


 
So are her remarks all of the time. She has been on me since day one. You try to be nice and she comes up with crap all the time. She can't just enjoy a good laugh like everyone else on here. She has to turn it into this junk.


----------



## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> So are her remarks all of the time. She has been on me since day one. You try to be nice and she comes up with crap all the time. She can't just enjoy a good laugh like everyone else on here. She has to turn it into this junk.


Everyone knows Mel is a handful. She can defend herself.

I take exception to your inference regarding someone's privacy. It's not germaine to the topic (nor is this post)


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Let's push HuntSecretary.com to start accepting AKC hunt tests. I just emailed them on the subject. Enough interest and they may come on line with AKC and we'll get some good ol' American competition going for the service!


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Well it just seems to me that nobody really cares about $1.50 increase. It's really nothing when you look at the big picture. 

So I guess I really can't wait to see what you all will be saying when entry's reach $150.00 a stake. Double what they are now. Heck with two dogs that's only $280 more a weekend. At 15 trials a year that's only $4200 a year more. Roughly $8400 a year total for entry's.

But that's not much when you figure in gas, motels, training, yada, yada, yada. 

I guess nobody work's anymore to support their family and put there kids through school. And do all that family stuff. I don't know many working stiffs that play this game anymore. If they do work it's to support this addiction.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

KNorman said:


> Everyone knows Mel is a handful. She can defend herself.
> 
> I take exception to your inference regarding someone's privacy. It's not germaine to the topic (nor is this post)


 
Yes I know and yet everyone jumps at the chance. I don't care one way or the other what anyone is into. Crap just keeps getting beat like a dead horse around here and it is rather old. I was trying to play nice and like normal it went the opposite way. To the OP I am sorry your thread has gotten off topic.


----------



## jeffbuikema (Dec 2, 2009)

Still a small price to pay for the service.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In my opinion, we stuck with Shayne... He did not return the favor! ........End of story.

john


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

1st retriever said:


> Yes I know and yet everyone jumps at the chance. I don't care one way or the other what anyone is into. Crap just keeps getting beat like a dead horse around here and it is rather old. I was trying to play nice and like normal it went the opposite way. To the OP I am sorry your thread has gotten off topic.


At some point, every pup has to learn to run with the big dogs and quit pouting, or else quit trying. Now, back to regularly scheduled debate. Do I like a monopoly? Nope. Do I want to do handwritten entries for 3-5 dogs every weekend I run, or be the HT/FT secretary that deals with the good old days of mailed entries? Nope. I'll admit to being a little put off at the email, not because of the fee itself, but the timing, I guess, though in reality, it wouldn't have mattered if they'd waited a bit, there'd still be complaints. I far preferred EE over the other service, I'm just hoping the merger doesn't change how well EE has been run to date.


----------



## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

john fallon said:


> we stuck with Shayne...


I think I'm on the wrong thread.


----------



## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

I mean, should we call the paramedics?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I don't think the $1.50 is all that big of deal looking at this in the big picture. I would ask however, if the addtional fee is there only for the purpose of those handlers who enter late, why not leave the fee at $3.00 and move the deadlines back. Instead of a week and a day or two from the trial, move them back a full 2 weeks. 

Am I wrong in my assumption for the added $1.50 fee?

Lots of good opinions on both sides of this debate. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

This is NOT a debate.....a private business raised their prices, YOU have a choice to use that business and play, .....or not. It is not your right to expect an answer from ANYONE as to why they raised their price, nor should you expect one.
Get over it, and move on....


----------



## m blank (Apr 2, 2006)

I have always sent in paper entries to EE so I didn't have to pay any fee. So $4.50 an entry is a big jump for me. I am not rich by any definition but I do enjoy playing the sport. That $13.50 a trial that they are going to charge me could have gone for gas or hotel instead of lining someones pockets.
I have been in the field trial game for many years. I have worked hard at several trials a year to support the sport. I have been the field trial secretary of old. 
It is pretty sad that Retriever News which is suppose to support and help grow the sport is trying to eliminate the working class people. 
I will cancel my subscription to Retriever News. That will save me SOME money for entries.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

When a merchant takes credit cards, they pay money to the credit card compny and money to the gateway. The gateway charges a flat rate and percentage and those rates are going up. In reality, $3 is probably barely making it. There is no pocket lining going on at $3 an entry. It's the cost of offering credit cards. True the percent goes down as the amount charged goes up, but it is the cost of doing business. AKC also takes a cut but the clubs have to pay that. People are being way too emotional about this.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> Have you noticed she starts stuff all the time? No wonder she was banned.


And you have been in a time out too because you jump in the middle and can't take the fallout, and you are heading that way again. You choose to start something, don't think you are going to get a pass.


----------



## m blank (Apr 2, 2006)

I am not using a credit card so I don't know what credit card charges have to do with me.
I am emotional about my money. I guess because I have to work pretty hard for it.


----------



## weebegoldens (Jan 25, 2005)

My suggestion would be get with your Parent clubs. If you think outside of just field events...(Show/Obed/Agility) If the standard show secretary(MBF/Jau/BlueRay) gets wind of the fact that they can charge $$ to the exhibitor as well as the club. They will .. I would expect that would upset a much larger group than just the field people. 

or

Contact AKC.. as AKC currently take agility entries on line. If akc thinks they will loose money due to people not entering they will review taking Field entries... Push and if everyone pushes hard enough they will take field entries. Then EE will not be the only ones out there.

or

If anyone is interested lets start another entry service. It isn't hard. Couple of SQL tables in a db..Web site front end...


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

m blank said:


> I am not using a credit card so I don't know what credit card charges have to do with me.
> I am emotional about my money. I guess because I have to work pretty hard for it.


Don't you think that an employee or two have to be there to manually process your entry, along with giving the excellent customer service that EE has? That is part of the cost of running a business.


----------



## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Cynthia Tallman said:


> What gnaws at me about the increase is that it has been applied to events that are open and have already accepted entries and the premium was changed after entries were accepted. It just seems wrong to change the price mid stream without notice. It is one thing to increase a fee in the future events that have not accepted entries. But it strikes me as unethical and wrong, maybe even illegal, to charge some folks $3.00 and others $4.50 without notice for the same event and not entering at the last minute.


If you have already entered at the previous rate, have they gone back and charged you the additional $1.50? They haven't done that to me--or at least it hasn't hit my credit card. If that was the case, I agree with you and I would be angry as well. 

If you haven't entered and the price went up, well, you snooze, you lose. Happens all the time from the stock market to the grocery store.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> When a merchant takes credit cards, they pay money to the credit card compny and money to the gateway. The gateway charges a flat rate and percentage and those rates are going up. In reality, $3 is probably barely making it. There is no pocket lining going on at $3 an entry. It's the cost of offering credit cards. True the percent goes down as the amount charged goes up, but it is the cost of doing business. AKC also takes a cut but the clubs have to pay that. People are being way too emotional about this.



I know you state that they are not lining the pockets, however, isn't it in the best interest of a business to make money?

I might have missed it earlier in the 22 pages but what are your thoughts on the reasoning for the increase? 

Like anything else in life, shouldn't we ask the question, why? 

Why do gas prices continue to rise? Why does health care continue to rise? 

I think most understand that we probably won't get an answer at all or at the very least an honest one when asking any of these questions but I do believe we have to ask why. 

Like I mentioned, the buck fifty isn't that big of a deal but either is the nickel increase at the pump. What's the reasoning is all.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I know you state that they are not lining the pockets, however, isn't it in the best interest of a business to make money?


You answered your own question. I stated: "In reality, $3 is probably barely making it" for all the overhead of a business that relies on credit cards. If you haven't run a business it's easy to say that your gross should be your net.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

m blank said:


> I have always sent in paper entries to EE so I didn't have to pay any fee. So $4.50 an entry is a big jump for me. I am not rich by any definition but I do enjoy playing the sport. That $13.50 a trial that they are going to charge me could have gone for gas or hotel instead of lining someones pockets.
> I have been in the field trial game for many years. I have worked hard at several trials a year to support the sport. I have been the field trial secretary of old.
> It is pretty sad that Retriever News which is suppose to support and help grow the sport is trying to eliminate the working class people.
> I will cancel my subscription to Retriever News. That will save me SOME money for entries.


The 'MERGER' of RFTN and EE is fine IF it BENEFITS the sport.

How do these BENEFIT the sport:

1. INCREASE PRICES

2. REMOVE ANY OPTIONS FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO AVOID CREDIT CARD FEES

3. CHANGING RULES FOR EVENTS ALREADY APPROVE BY THE AKC AND OPEN FOR ENTRY.

How will the EE price increase BENEFIT the dogs, the workers, or the clubs?????? 

These are RFTN NON-PROFIT funds that just bought into EE. These funds belong to the clubs for the BENEFIT of the 'SPORT'.

This is what it is about........NOT THE $1.50 price increase!


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## RJG (Feb 18, 2005)

m blank said:


> I have always sent in paper entries to EE so I didn't have to pay any fee. So $4.50 an entry is a big jump for me. I am not rich by any definition but I do enjoy playing the sport. That $13.50 a trial that they are going to charge me could have gone for gas or hotel instead of lining someones pockets.
> I have been in the field trial game for many years. I have worked hard at several trials a year to support the sport. I have been the field trial secretary of old.
> It is pretty sad that Retriever News which is suppose to support and help grow the sport is trying to eliminate the working class people.
> I will cancel my subscription to Retriever News. That will save me SOME money for entries.


I am a HT Secretary. Do I ever want to go back to the old - not a chance! 

However, for some of the participants in our events that $3 charge was significant. Those of you who don't recognize that are apparently not on a fixed income or having some trouble staying financially active in these sports. So for those handlers, being able to send in written entries and avoiding the charge was a good thing. And I did not mind coordinating with EE about the few written entries. And for those handlers - a jump from 0 to $4.50 is a hike. 

Yeah, I know as well as anyone that everything has gone up - but that doesn't mean one more thing doesn't pinch.

Again - go back to the old way - never! And, no, I won't be starting my own - I do appreciate the ease of EE. But I will keep my eyes out to see what another online entry service has to offer and/or if one pops up.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> You answered your own question. I stated: "In reality, $3 is probably barely making it" for all the overhead of a business that relies on credit cards. If you haven't run a business it's easy to say that your gross should be your net.


You stated "they are not lining their pockets".

But what are your thoughts as to the reason why the increase took place?


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

225 posts ,and no real answers.
Could have went and made $4.50 in the meantime regards..........


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Wade said:


> You stated "they are not lining their pockets".
> 
> But what are your thoughts as to the reason why the increase took place?


Your own words: I know you state that they are not lining the pockets, however,* isn't it in the best interest of a business to make money?

*


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Prices increase so that the owners of the businesses can stay in business and make a decent living for their effort. I don't see any mystery as to the why of this with regards to EE's fees. If it is so easy to set up a similar product, why did the other company fail so miserably? Why has no one else done it? This can't really be about what amounts to a very small dollar amount. It is being taken way personally, IMO, because of the players involved. Who on this board in the real world would sacrifice a legitimate business profit, which can't even be that big, because it might hurt some feelings? I'm sorry some people can't afford it. I'm sorry I can't afford alot of things I'd like to have or do as well. But if I can't afford an entry fee increase, then I have some choices to make about how many dogs I run and how often, that isn't anyone's problem but my own.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> Yes I know and yet everyone jumps at the chance. I don't care one way or the other what anyone is into. Crap just keeps getting beat like a dead horse around here and it is rather old. I was trying to play nice and like normal it went the opposite way. *To the OP I am sorry your thread has gotten off topic.*




Wow! 

When I stared this thread it was just to find out if everyone had received the notice or if it could have been a hoax. At that time the EntryExpress website was unchanged and we only received notice on my husband's computer which seemed odd since we mostly enter using my computer.

Also Dave had writtten to EE to ask a question as to how our club's free run certficates would be handled in the future and has not received an answer.

Sorry about that ya'll!

My opinion is that yes we've enjoyed the EE services. Yes I've been a hunt test secretary the old way, and no, I woudn't want to go back to that way. It is only $1.50 increase for many and will not be the deciding factor for "do I go" or "do I stay home" for any particular weekend. 

I'm sure that most will continue to play the games and most clubs will continue to use Entry Express unless and until a competitor surfaces.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> This is NOT a debate.....a private business raised their prices, YOU have a choice to use that business and play, .....or not. It is not your right to expect an answer from ANYONE as to why they raised their price, nor should you expect one.
> Get over it, and move on....


Details are unclear to me, but this "business" is now at least partially owned by our National Clubs. 

In that context, shouldn't our clubs be accountable to the membership?


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

John Kelder said:


> 225 posts ,and no real answers.
> Could have went and made $4.50 in the meantime regards..........


Nope on Salary Some pay check every 2 weeks!!!!!!!!!

Like some have said its only 1.50 price increase!! Not to some of us!!! Its a 4.50 increase to me I mailed all mine in.

So how much of an increase does it have to be before its gone to far. They start at 1.50 then next year its 2.50 then 3.50 more. Its just like every thing else go up a little at a time


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I will need to look at the fine print.
> 
> I do think I will send my entries to the secretary as my protest to the price increase


Why protest to the event secretary? Just makes more work for us.. Some of us secretaries are also out working the trial, so I hope no-one protests to me.....


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I think the the new cost is ill timed. Weather or not a result of a monopoly or not still has the appearance. In my mind this fits with the bigger picture of who really pulls the strings of our sport. I am not fully sure if upcoming new HT and FT folks are willing to put up with all the hard work and such little reward. Many folks in our area have left the sport and is our loss. The shoes left to fill will not likely be filled. I would guess that more than less clubs are suffering both financially and volunteer workers. I bet we see fewer clubs than new. The increased costs for the entrants. hotel, gas,food time away from work and so on will take away from the number of entries and work force. With a decrease of entry numbers and increased costs to put on a trial will continue to make clubs raise costs. I wonder if this effect will continue to feed on itself until the sport is drastically different from the recent past or its current state. It may end up and the so called golden days of the sport when rich folks wait to hear news from the pro and the pros eat lunch in the barn with the rest of the "help" . In the end this 1.50 or 4.50 increase will seem quite small as early as this time next year.


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

So Just a theoretical question to all of you. If the charge wasn't put out for you to see would it be a problem.

For example:
Cost of test or trial is 75.00 you enter pay 75.00 and never think about what it pays for.
Or
Test is 71.50 and you pay a 4.50 charge for processing and handling etc.

Which makes you feel better, in reality most businesses have overhead built into pricing, unlike EE who lets the Clubs set the prices, and they then charge a handling or processing fee.

This could still work let the club set the price of the entry, then EE adds the overhead for handling all the paperwork and makes the cost of the trial 5 more but doesnt show it as an added expense, still the same result.

If you were to breakdown what the entry fee pays for then you would see where it went, even now do you know how every penny of the entry fee is spent? I know many on here do know because they are the treasurer or secretary for the clubs but in the overall a good majority of people do not realize how each dollar is spent. 15 per duck x2 for each dog, judges,grounds, fuel for equipment used during trial,paid bird boys, lunches for workers, AKC fees, ribbons/rosettes/trophy/plate,poppers,live shells. All these costs are rolled up into the fee that everyone pays.

The point I am trying to get at is you are paying for all these items that you do not see, what if you get a no bird on a live flyer because the honor dog broke, should you have to pay more for the extra bird you are using? the extra shells? No but it is paid for by the entry fees of everyone, just like if we didnt have EE the clubs would have to spend money printing catalogs, etc and costing the time of the seceratary.

I do not like the 1.50 but I like to play the game and prices go up and they go down. I also like to drive my truck and it costs me alot in fuel even more now, but I deal with it.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> And you have been in a time out too because you jump in the middle and can't take the fallout, and you are heading that way again. You choose to start something, don't think you are going to get a pass.


So when I argue something I can't take the fallout but when you guys argue I should slap you on the back and say "way to go, that's tellin 'em"?  Whatever! I am done with this thread. I will see you guys the next time you want to start something.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Losthwy said:


> If I wrote software programs, I'd be thinking of creating a new service. With this increase you would probably get flooded with clubs using your service.


exactly what RFTEntry and RetrieverEntry thought, 2 versions later and to survive they joined the competition, if it was that easy I would think there might be other players in the business


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Create an online only service and post catalog on web. Anyone wanting a catalog can print their own. Forget the Fedex, printing, etc...charges.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Chad Baker said:


> I think we as clubs and clients of a non-profit should have a detailed financial statement of the national clubs several weeks before the national meetings so if we have questions they can be asked at those yearly meetings.
> Chad


from The Constitution and By-Laws of The National Retriever Club Inc. Article VIII Section 8 as revised November 15, 1971 and as amended November 10, 1985 and November 15, 1987 and November 13, 1988

"The Treasurer shall collect and receive all moneys due to or belonging to this Club and send out all notices determining dues and assessments. He shall deposit all moneys in such banks as shall be designated by The Board of Directors or member Clubs of this Club in the name of the Club. He shall have authority to sign checks for the withdrawal of funds from this Club's bank accounts. This same authority is given to the President, or to the Vice President, whom the directors shall designate. His books shall at all times be open to inspection by the delegate of any Member Club and he shall report to the Member Clubs and to the board of directors at every meeting the condition of the finances of this club, when requested to do so. This report shall be completed by January 31st of each year and delivered to the Secretary for presentation at the succeeding Annual Meeting. He shall perform such other duties as may be directed by Members of The board of Directors."


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

EdA said:


> exactly what RFTEntry and RetrieverEntry thought, 2 versions later and to survive they joined the competition, if it was that easy I would think there might be other players in the business


It would not surprise me it is because the folks at RFT Entry are simply incompetent in regards to this endeavour. Given their track record both past and present. 
At the very least this is a PR blunder. Even the oil companies don't raise the price of gas 50% in one day. If they did would we be saying don't like $7.50 per gal gas? Build a better mouse trap and get your own pump.


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## Ken S. (Feb 2, 2005)

I will say this, at roughly 800-1000 per trial for this portion of the service, which is often as much as we make on a trial, and sometimes (much) more, I can pay someone a fraction of that to collect the entries and make a file for printing. While it may make a secretary's job easier, there question is not to me the relative cost but the relative value. When I can get it done significantly cheaper why pay so much. I use the VIP service and enter early to keep the costs down for me personally. No, it will have no impact on my running either way, but I will vote for bringing it back in house and hope that other clubs do as well.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Hasn't Shayne said many times over the years that EE hasn't been a money maker for all intents and purposes? I always got the impression from him that EE was a labor of love borne from his desire to help improve one small part of the dog games. From what the folks that have been in the game for a long time have posted, he's succeeded at that. 

But the fact of the matter is that all businesses are in business to make a profit. Businesses evolve. As others have said, at $3.00 I can't imagine there was much left over after covering expenses such as credit card fees, infrastructure, employee's, a building to house the business etc... Not to mention that there surely was a good deal of money spent in manpower and technology to merge the entry services. If they now want to recoup some of those costs and/or make a profit for their efforts, more power to them.

As far as how much is too much, everything has a point at which the price goes beyond the perceived value by the consumer. When that happens people stop buying the product. For example, it is often reported that $4.00 a gallon gas is the point where people drastically change their habbits and stop buying as much. The same will be true with EE. Pricing is a fine balance between being able to make a profit but still keep the value of the product or service at a point where people will continue to purchase from you. It happens in EVERY business everyday.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

EdA said:


> from The Constitution and By-Laws of The National Retriever Club Inc. Article VIII Section 8 as revised November 15, 1971 and as amended November 10, 1985 and November 15, 1987 and November 13, 1988
> 
> His books shall at all times be open to inspection by the delegate of any Member Club and he shall report to the Member Clubs and to the board of directors at every meeting the condition of the finances of this club, when requested to do so. This report shall be completed by January 31st of each year and delivered to the Secretary for presentation at the succeeding Annual Meeting."


Thank you for posting this By-Law of the National Retriever Club. I think it needs to be changed. Here's my opinion as to why:

The By Law states it is required that the National Ret. Club's financial report (I assume it's a report on the previous year's financial activities) be completed by January 31. Then it goes to the NRC club Secretary who sits on the report for 10 months. (It does not say it goes to the President, the VP, or to the Board Members. I am hoping that an annual financial report does, but only the Secretary gets it per the By Law.

Let's look at this By Law closely.

The report on the previous year's financial activities is required to be completed by the Treasurer within a month after the year ends. NRC has a one person office of Secretary/Treasurer so it remains with this officer (the one who prepared the financial report) for about 10 months... until the following November because it is not reported to the membership until the annual meeting which is held at the NRC annual field trial (Nov.)

In those 10 months, it is not mailed to the member clubs. They have no idea what income was taken in nor what expenses were paid. The member clubs have no idea whether the previous year's National Ret Club field trial made money or lost money. 

By the time a report on the financial status of the previous year's national event is made, the next year's national event is starting the next day. 

If you have been to an annual NRC meeting, you know that there are a lot of items on the agenda. The financial report (if given) flies by and no one pays attention as there are 'more important' things to get on with, like what's happening the next day.

While there are some delegates from the member clubs at the annual meeting, not all member clubs have delegates there. How many delegates get a hard copy of the annual financial report at the meeting and take them back home to their club to share? 

You can see where I am going with this. 

If anyone out there is wondering why clubs and individuals do not have a clue as to the financial status of the National Retriever Club... read closely the By Law that Ed has posted here. 

Think about it. 

There is no requirement for the Secretary/Treasurer to give the report to the other Officers, Board members, regional directors, or member clubs in a timely fashion. (Done by January 31 and then it sits.)

There is no requirement to mail a hard copy of the annual financial report to EVERY member club. 

By the time an annual financial report is given for the previous year, the current year is almost over. Example: the financial report for year 2010 will be given at a meeting in November 2011. 

When is there time or opportunity for member clubs to inquire about how money has been spent ? When is there an opportunity to inquire about responsibility and accountability for how money has been spent (which is one of the purposes for having a financial report).

How many people reading this post are aware that the masthead on Retriever News states that the two national clubs -- the National Retriever Club and the National Amateur Retriever Club -- OWN Retriever News ? 

When was the last time that NRC or NARC member clubs saw a financial statement for the operation of Retriever News? 

Maybe I should re-word this... when was the last time that the President, VP, Sec/Treasurer, Board Members and Regional Directors of the National Ret. Club and the National Amateur Retriever Club received a profit and loss statement for Retriever News from RN's president and editor? 

IMHO the 1985 National Ret. Club By Law regarding the when and how the annual financial report is made available needs to be changed. 

The Master National Ret Club (MNRC) lost $40,000. on last year's Master National which was held 6 months ago. This news is just now surfacing. Apparently, not all member clubs got the news. Region 4 did from the past president, the VP, and the director of Region 4. 

So... how did the National Amateur and the National Open do last year financially? Do the Officers, Board Members, Regional Directors, or any member clubs know yet? 

It's been almost a year since the 2010 National Am was held and 5 months since the 2010 National Open was held. 

Helen


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## goldngirl (Nov 10, 2009)

TimThurby said:


> So I'll ask again,
> 
> Is it within the rules to change fees on a listed premium, on an event that is already open, with entries being accepted before the change?
> 
> With the rulebook stating:


Hmmmm......think you have a very good point here! So next question is...who is going to enforce the penalty if this is true?

Hmmm.....interesting!


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

EdA said:


> from The Constitution and By-Laws of The National Retriever Club Inc. Article VIII Section 8 as revised November 15, 1971 and as amended November 10, 1985 and November 15, 1987 and November 13, 1988
> 
> "The Treasurer shall collect and receive all moneys due to or belonging to this Club and send out all notices determining dues and assessments. He shall deposit all moneys in such banks as shall be designated by The Board of Directors or member Clubs of this Club in the name of the Club. He shall have authority to sign checks for the withdrawal of funds from this Club's bank accounts. This same authority is given to the President, or to the Vice President, whom the directors shall designate. His books shall at all times be open to inspection by the delegate of any Member Club and he shall report to the Member Clubs and to the board of directors at every meeting the condition of the finances of this club, when requested to do so. This report shall be completed by January 31st of each year and delivered to the Secretary for presentation at the succeeding Annual Meeting. He shall perform such other duties as may be directed by Members of The board of Directors."


Wouldn't it be prudent for every Member Club to request a financial statement from the secretary for 2010 right now????? 

It should have been completed Jan. 31st, and can easily be printed to a PDF and emailed to every member club if they request it.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

TBell said:


> Wouldn't it be prudent for every Member Club to request a financial statement from the secretary for 2010 right now?????
> 
> It should have been completed Jan. 31st, and can easily be printed to a PDF and emailed to every member club if they request it.


You mean like the one for 2009 that appears on pages 30 & 31 of the October 2010 RFTN.

;-)

Some act like you haven't seen it.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Doug Main said:


> You mean like the one for 2009 that appears on pages 30 & 31 of the October 2010 RFTN.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Some act like you haven't seen it.


A lot probably did not see it. 

If you subscribe to Retriever News, you probably saw it. I probably saw it, but did not scrutinize it so it's now on me to go find the October 2010 issue of RN and look it over.

The situation still exists... a financial report for year 2009 is published in October 2010.
That's too late to ask questions or ask for change in policy, operations, or the management of 2010. By the time 2009 is reported, 2010 is almost over. 

That's simply too much lag time. 

Helen


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I think everyone is confused!!!!!!!!


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Doug Main said:


> You mean like the one for 2009 that appears on pages 30 & 31 of the October 2010 RFTN.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Some act like you haven't seen it.


Hi Doug,

Can you help me out here. I am looking at my Ocober 2010 issue pages 30-31 and I am looking at the Mark Smith article on "Ask the Pro"

Thanks


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Wade said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> Can you help me out here. I am looking at my Ocober 2010 issue pages 30-31 and I am looking at the Mark Smith article on "Ask the Pro"
> 
> Thanks


I'm sorry. It's the November Issue.

The letter to the board is from the accountant is October.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Thanks Doug


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Gee, remember 'way back when' ... FOLLOW THE BOUNCING BALL. 

I hope everyone is rushing off to find their November 2010 issue of Retriever News to look up a report on what happened in 2009.

Helen


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

TBell said:


> Helen,
> 
> Your trial had 250 dogs entered.
> 
> ...


That right there is probably the best solution and will do more for clubs than any other idea yet stated. If the sport is stuck with this increase, put the money where it will do the most good, with the clubs (which are always complaining about how poor they are) and the secretary (who always complain how under-appreciated their services are). 
The only change I would recommend is to have each club also offer online entry by using an online payment service like PayPal or Google Checkout. Their rate is $2.33, almost half of what this new monopoly will charge everyone. About every club has a website, and any individual that can manage a basic html site can set up an online cart with one of these services that will require the entrant to submit the required entry form info before checkout in an html form. Of course the $2.33 will cut into the $5 mentioned above, so the end profit will not be as high, but the club/secretary still profits while offering online services as well the snail mail service. If a club did not want to charge the higher $5 they could choose their own lower rate and still turn a bonus profit while paying the secretary too.
If we're going to be charged a higher rate, we may as well dictate that the money will actually go to the best use for the sport.

It is nice to see so many discussing ways to make the sport more viable and to keep it affordable. It is too bad it takes a 50% rise in fees to do that. Right now I bet the RN folks are wishing they would have implemented this fee hike at a lower increment over a longer time...then again maybe that is what they are doing now and this is just he tip of the iceberg that is yet to come. If enough ideas are posted and discussed here, I'd bet there will be a few that may actually become relevant contenders with this new monopoly in the near future. 
Innovation and competition drive the market to improve in quality and lower in price!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> I think I'm on the wrong thread.


Your're inferring that there's a right thread ? 

john


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

helencalif said:


> I hope everyone is rushing off to find their November 2010 issue of Retriever News to look up a report on what happened in 2009.
> 
> Helen


I found my copy of the NOV 2010 issue of Retriever News and went to page 30. The index says it is a financial report on the 2009 National Open. I don't think it is a report on the National Open; I think it is a combination of non-event income and non-event expenses such as club operating costs. If I am correct, it is hard to determine the actual expenses for the 2009 National Open.

Under income categories it lists income not pertaining to the Open (an event):
$6,715.00 member club dues
$30.11 interest
The other income may be attributed as event income, but it is hard to tell on some of them. 

Look at the expense categories and expenses figures. Bank fees are a club operating cost (overhead) and so are director meetings and insurance. 

One category jumped out at me: $7,667.67 for Judges and Officers Expenses. It seems to me that Officers Expenses should not be lumped together with Judges Expenses. How could anyone determine the reimbursements made to officers or to the 3 judges? There should be separation.

Are we to assume that the travel expenses for the 2009 National Open judges are in this $7,667.67 category? Remember, how many judges there are (aren't there only 3?) Plus there is $5,590.59 for motel. And $1,766.92 for meals (judges or for judges and officers?)
Does somebody know if the club pays for the travel, motel, food/meals for the Officers and directors? I am not complaining, I am asking. 

Trash $2,648.15. Gee, the cost of a dumpster for our 3-day trial is $190. Granted, you are going to have more trash at a week-long National Open, but $2,648.15 for trash? I wonder if that included porta-potties because I don't see an expense category for them. 

I guess I was hoping for a more specific financial report for the National Open. Based on these unaudited and unverified figures, at least the NRC did not lose money in 2009. 

I know a lot of people following this thread are bored stiff and could care less. But you are here reading this so bear with those of us who do care about whether the national events are losing money or making money. There are some who care how their national clubs are being managed and where the money is being spent. 

Since the 2010 Master National lost $40,000., it seems appropriate to be thinking about how the Officers and Board members are managing their annual event and the club's money since the decisions they make could mean a profit or loss.

True, this thread began about the sudden EE fee administrative fee increase that quickly followed the RN-EE merger, but it does seem logical to inquire about the involvement, management, and operations of the 2 national retriever field trial clubs since the clubs own Retriever News.

It has also been said Retriever News bought out Entry Express. If true, does that now mean that the new owners of Entry Express are the two national retriever clubs? 

Remember - the two national field trial clubs are nonprofit corporations who are managed by elected officers and a Board of Directors who are answerable to their member clubs. 

Did the member clubs know this was coming? Did the elected Officers and Board Members of the NRC and NARC know this was coming and approve it? The announcement published in Retriever News said they voted and approved of whatever is happening. Does this include the EE fee increase? 

Did NRC and NARC know about the fee increase and was an actual vote taken and were all Officers polled for their vote? 

If a vote was taken, I'd like to know who voted and what their vote was. ROTFL. 

Curious and trying to follow the bouncing ball,
Helen


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

Soon after Shane had his first kid, he raised the prices. Soon after he announces that he is going to have his second child he raised them again. I am sure we are all funding his childrens college fund. You can't fool me ole swishy one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfreakin believable!!!!!!!!!!!


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I don't know if Shayne made the decision to raise EE's administrative fee to $4.50 or not. I am beginning to doubt it.

Shayne's title at EE is President and Founder. He has posted on RTF that David Didier is a business partner. Didier's title is CEO at EE so it does seem that Shayne is not the top dog and Didier is. 

It has been posted on this thread that this was more than a merger; it has been said that RN bought out EE. Since RN is owned by the two national retriever clubs, does this mean the two national clubs bought EE?

Shayne has said that the merger-buy out was crafted by David Didier (CEO at EE) and Dennis Bath (Pres and Editor of Retriever News). I don't know if Dennis Bath put money into Retriever News and co-owns it with the two national clubs or just what that relationship is. The masthead of RN says it is owned by the two national clubs. RN has officers and a paid staff. Go look at the RN masthead for the cast of players. 

The two national clubs are nonprofit corporations. They have By Laws which they must adhere to. They are "membership" nonprofit organizations -- not individual memberships, club memberships. Retriever clubs pay dues annually to be member clubs. 

The Officers, Board Members, and Regional Directors are supposed to be answerable to their member clubs. The Officers and Board Members are supposed to be accountable to the member clubs for all financial decisions they make. No one officer or Board member can make financial decisions (especially a merger or buy out of a for-profit company). At some time the Officers and Board had to be consulted and a vote taken to merge with or buy out EE. Somebody had to approve the raise in EE's administrative fees. 

It is the responsibility of member clubs to be asking hard questions of their officers and board members about what they know about this deal and if a vote was really taken and if the officers and board members knew every single item Didier and Bath agreed upon as part of this deal.

What authorization did Dennis Bath have from the national club officers?

Dennis Bath probably isn't working for free at Retriever News. If he is getting paid by the two national retriever clubs to be Pres. and Editor, he would be their employee.

If he put his own money into Retriever News to become Pres. and Editor, he would be a business partner of the two national clubs. I know that nonprofit corporations can have paid employees (the IRS keeps an eye on how much they are paid). I don't know if nonprofit corporations can buy for-profit companies, manage them, receive income from them, and not lose their nonprofit status with the IRS. 

The national clubs may be walking a thin line as far as their nonprofit status goes. Any legal eagles out there who know nonprofit corp law? 

Dennis Bath, Pres and Editor of Retriever News, published a press release about the merger-buy out in the current issue of Retriever News. In that press release Bath said "a long term agreement has been implemented in such a way that Retriever News will manage the executive and advertising functions".

There was no further explanation of what executive functions RN will be managing, but it could mean that Shayne has gotten or will be getting cash and will take a walk.

It also could mean that David Didier, CEO at EE and Shayne's business partner, is getting his investment back and taking a walk, too. 

How many paid executives are needed at Entry Express if RN is taking over the "executive functions"? Who at RN will be doing the executive functions, Dennis Bath? He is the top dog (only executive) calling the shots at Retriever News. 

Where do the two national retriever clubs fit into all of this? The RN masthead says they own Retriever News. Does it mean the clubs now own Entry Express?

I guess the member clubs should be asking ... what do the Officers and Board members of the NRC and NARC know... and when did they know it? 

What financial arrangements are involved with the national clubs "owning" Retriever News?
Is Dennis Bath a paid employee or is he a business partner , and is he calling the shots for the two national clubs?

Just asking.
Helen


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Helen

Dennis Bath is the President of the Retriever News.
I do not believe that it is a paid position.
The Retriever News is owned by the two National Clubs.

I believe that the Retriever News bought out Entry Express and that the increased entry fees are being used to pay the buyout


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Helen
> 
> Dennis Bath is the President of the Retriever News.
> I do not believe that it is a paid position.
> ...


From what I hear, I think that's right. Don't forget about having to cover development costs for the system that is getting retired. ;-)


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

For clubs that have already set up events in the system, it seems to me that EE should honor the terms that were in place when the event was setup. 

When an event is setup, whether on RetrieverEntry or EE, the club makes a commitment to use that service and is obligated to abide by the terms of that agreement. The flip side is that the entry service also has an obligation to honor the terms of the agreement. 

Changing fees midstream is improper IMO. It would have been far better to give all clubs fair notice (6 months or longer) so that alternative arrangements could be made.


----------



## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

I was talking to another fellow dog person last evening who was amazed at the lack of uproar this has caused. He brought up several points that even I hadn't considered that I think need discussion. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE RAISING OF THE SERVICE FEE! Rather it is based on how it was done. And is equally troubling by who did it, which has a huge implication on our sport. 

Immediately after the "merger" announcement, all premium lists on the EE website were modified to reflect the increase/addition of service fees. AKC rule specify that the premium lists must be forwarded to their office. Has any of these revised premiums been forwarded to AKC? Historically, AKC has been loath to approve any changes to premium lists once they have been accepted and published. Can you imagine their allowing a club to ask for an increase in their entry fee 1-2 weeks before close of entry? This is further compounded by the fact that it was not tthe club who modified the premium lists, but an outside contractor who just so happens to have ties to the two national FT clubs. And as such should know AKC's rules regarding premium lists. Note the published fine for a club regarding premium lists is $50.00 per occurrence. It is amazing that none of the clubs are demanding the usurping of ownership for their premium lists and objecting to an outside individual changing the terms/conditions in that premium and then re-publishing/distributing that premium. 

Also equally bewildering is that each of the clubs with active events posted on EE, has an ongoing contract with EE for that event. That contract should specify the costs/fees that EE is expecting for that event; start-up/listing fees, catalog fees, postcards, etc. which should also include any service fees being charged to the entrants. Failing a formal contract, the original premium list as initially published on EE would stand as a contract with EE for these items. So EE is essentially breaking all their contracts with clubs with open events by modifying their service charges without obtaining prior approval of the hosts clubs. Further, it is causing the clubs to break their contracts (original premium) with the entrants as the original premium listed fees that are now totally different.

Those who have been on committees know the hassle of needing to contact AKC to change just about any condition listed on the premium; judges change, addition of more flights, location changes, etc. Why are these individuals not concerned with this modification? Why are they not concerned with the ownership of their premium? Why do they seem unconcerned that representatives of outside clubs have the ability to alter their premium with no recourse? Why are they not offended about NOT being notified of these changes that have the potential of affecting their events turnout until they were fait accompli? Why are their sense of fair play not insulted that because of this entrants will be paying a differing amounts to enter the same stake? Why are they not outraged that their contractor is renegotiating their contract mid event?


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

jeff t. said:


> For clubs that have already set up events in the system, it seems to me that EE should honor the terms that were in place when the event was setup.
> 
> When an event is setup, whether on RetrieverEntry or EE, the club makes a commitment to use that service and is obligated to abide by the terms of that agreement. The flip side is that the entry service also has an obligation to honor the terms of the agreement.


You would think so.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Helen
> 
> Dennis Bath is the President of the Retriever News.
> I do not believe that it is a paid position.
> ...


----------



## sinned (Feb 14, 2009)

So Shane, i gotta ask, the retriever world is speaking, are you listening like you say you do in the PR? 

http://www.theretrievernews.com/RNews/Documents/APRIL2011PRESSRELEASE1.pdf

1. EVEN if a club will accept a mail in entry to the event secretary, the EE site lists its boiler plate that if you send it to them, it will charge you the service fee. i confused a secretary asking about this. 

so the poorly worded 'boilerplate' says if you mail it to EE, they will charge you the processing fee. That is rally sneaky and the source of much of this confusion. This goes against the rules as pointed out. 

but its the EXACT same trickery that got us into this mess where EE pretended to provide entry service for events that it did not administer, creating false 'early closing' announcements and then forwarding the entries to RE. 

2. If a club chooses to use EE or anyone else to collect entries, and to do their entry processing, then its the club's choice and cost for doing business, not yours. We can choose to use the convenience nad pay for it. Either way, we get screwed and force to pay for a club's laziness or our own. We really need to lobby the clubs to contain costs. 

3. The dog show world has a number of superintendents to handle entries and run the shows at the venues. Its a little bit different function, but dog sports none the less. So many in fact they have an association. Curiously, their last newsletter, has a curious blurb about their goals in streamlining and cost cutting and getting reliable, accurate paperless results. hmm. 

http://www.infodog.com/misc/dssa/dssapr5.htm

In speaking with the equivalent person at AKC for the performance events, he told me that the AKC is staying out of this issue, its between us and the clubs, and the clubs and EE. AKC will no nothing, because all of these events are not held by AKC, they are AKC licensed. more teflon. But who cares really, the AKC does little more than make money off our backs printing registrations and titles. 

So not even the AKC can form a consensus as an organization on how it would like to see the administration of events or uniformity across the spectrum of companion, performance or conformation events. 

Participation at events is historically down. Registration of dogs is historically down. More and more bad management decisions push us further to oblivion.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Perhaps one should apply a bit of logic to the discussion, since Shayne has not chimed in to defend the decision one could deduce that the decision was not his but that of others.........seems logical to me, if you don't like the fee don't pay it, stay home I won't...


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Leave ShaYne alone. Owen needs the new Farrari.

Pay the convenience fees and quityourbitchin.

Want a fix? Make another eEntry system. Standard programming, but a lot of work. (It brought RFTN to its knees.)

No one has mentioned PRIVACY issues with the database...


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> Helen
> 
> Dennis Bath is the President of the Retriever News.
> I do not believe that it is a paid position.
> ...



Follow the money ... 

... if Retriever News (i.e. the 2 national retriever clubs) BOUGHT Entry Express, then whomever "owns" Entry Express is going to get paid something.

David Didier who worked the deal is the CEO of Entry Express (aka E-Corp) and per Shayne is his business partner (i.e. Didier owns a piece of EE). There could be other investors in EE.
Who are they?

Some transparency, please. Are any Officers or Board Members investors (part owners) of Entry Express?

The thing that perplexes me is that the two national retriever clubs (by way of their Officers and Board Members) either knew about this and approved... or did not know about it at all.

The member clubs who belong to the two national retriever clubs should be screaming for some answers from the Officers and Board members of the national clubs.

One of my questions is ... how is it that Dennis Bath who is not an Officer nor a Board member of any national club, is the one who made the deal with Entry Express?
Since he is neither an elected officer nor a Board member he does not answer to the member clubs who ARE the basis of the national organizations.

Dennis Bath said in his press release that the Officers and Board members voted and approved of the buy out and long term agreement. But did they? Or are they learning about raised rates the same time the rest of us are?

Helen


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

EE is good, RTF Entry was bad. EE won on its merits as a good service. If Dave and Shayne made something on it and RTFN needs to recoup some of their investment, so be it. It costs money to run that service. Programmers, servers, and internet connections are not free. Suck up the $1.50 and go train. 

Steve


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

So many questions have been asked and so many issues raised. With no answers. Anybody heard from the new management? 

P R E S S R E L E A S E​​​​​....Retriever News believes that this merger will be greatly beneficial to all the clubs and contestants in both Field
Trial and Hunting Tests with virtually no changes to a system that most are already familiar with..... I have often stated
that the retriever community calls the shots at EE, I believe this makes it official.”...​
Dennis Bath, _President and Editor-in-Chief of Retriever News_​_
_​​​​​​​​​​


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Since none of us are stockholders, it's not really our business. Either buy the new product or not. I don't know Shayne but he certainly doesn't deserve any grief over a good business decision. I hope he made a butt load.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

EdA said:


> Perhaps one should apply a bit of logic to the discussion, since Shayne has not chimed in to defend the decision one could deduce that the decision was not his but that of others.........seems logical to me, if you don't like the fee don't pay it, stay home I won't...


X2,,, Me either!!!

Angie


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Did Shayne get strong armed?


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## sinned (Feb 14, 2009)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> Either buy the new product or not.


that implies that we have a CHOICE in the matter, but the appearance is that we don't. 

if you want to enter a hunt test or a trial, it that you have to pay EE $4.50 no matter if you like it or not. 

in the old neighborhood it was called the 'contribution to the social club' whether or not you visited the club or not, you had to pay to keep the doors open.


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## sinned (Feb 14, 2009)

I just love the line- 

"All parties to this agreement applaud this business model’s benefits of increased simplicity, cost containment and future enhancement of services. Additionally, the merger will create a single online entry system containing one calendar list of trials and hunting tests and an equitable price structure for everyone."

hmm, notice phrases like cost containment and equitable price structure? 

and you know what, as much as it pains me to say it M&K, your point is well made to either buy it or not.... i can almost not believe that no one else has said it yet...

our other avenue to making our point is to CHOOSE to take the rest of our business elsewhere. 

yes I am talking about boycotting Dogs Afield, the 'sister' company to EE. Jean and Jerry would not have extorted us like this, and this is little shameful to them by association. 

if enough of us buy elsewhere and the overall bottom line gets thinner, the peoples' point gets made a little stronger.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

sinned said:


> I just love the line-
> 
> "All parties to this agreement applaud this business model’s benefits of increased simplicity, cost containment and future enhancement of services. Additionally, the merger will create a single online entry system containing one calendar list of trials and hunting tests and an equitable price structure for everyone."
> 
> ...


Oh brother... 

Go elsewhere,,, Let us know how well it's worked for ya??

Angie


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

If RFTN "bought" EE and they raised the rates to pay for it.

If EE charged $3 per entry "for the convenience of using a credit card." 

At 3% of $75 that's about $2.25 per entry. Leaving a 75 cent profit, plus catalog printing prices,
and handling on the yellow postcards

If you were RFTN, a print medium decidely behind the times, the "voice of Field Trials" trying to launch a competing entry service that was limping compared to EE running away with it. Watching everyome going to EE (a great idea) for results and updates.

and 

You could sell your entry service (EE) to RFTN and make the same or more money...without doing the work,

What would you do????

Good for everyone involved If that's what happened...


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

John, I don't think you followed the bouncing ball.

EE had the better online entry service. RFTN had the poor product and lost their shirts because it failed. Err, the two national retriever clubs who OWN RFTN lost the clubs' money on that venture.

So what do the two national clubs do, they BUY Entry Express and then EE's administrative fees went up.

That's my take.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Oh brother...
> 
> Go elsewhere,,, Let us know how well it's worked for ya??
> 
> Angie


Looks like it's time for folks to get ahold of huntsecretary.com to me.



.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Doc E said:


> Looks like it's time for folks to get ahold of huntsecretary.com to me.
> 
> 
> 
> .


That's funny right there.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Doc E said:


> Looks like it's time for folks to get ahold of huntsecretary.com to me.
> 
> 
> 
> .


They don't compare.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

ONLINE ENTRY FEE:
If using the online entry option, you can use Visa, MasterCard or American Express credit cards. There will be a $3 fee per dog, per event ($5 for special events) to cover online processing by HuntSecretary.com.

MAIL-IN ENTRY FEE: 
If you prefer to mail your entries, you can use check or money order.
There will be no additional fee to cover the cost of processing mail-in entries.
www.huntsecretary.com


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Losthwy said:


> ONLINE ENTRY FEE:
> If using the online entry option, you can use Visa, MasterCard or American Express credit cards. There will be a $3 fee per dog, per event ($5 for special events) to cover online processing by HuntSecretary.com.
> 
> MAIL-IN ENTRY FEE:
> ...


Not as good for a number of reasons.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Angie B said:


> No frick'n kidding!! Lord have mercy... I was a field trial secretary and hunt test secretary back in the old days when we did it all... It sucked especially when UPS went on strike..
> 
> When was the last time any of you registered a litter or dog online? AKC hangs you $25 for the privilege.
> 
> ...


HAHAHHHAA! You are hilarious... :razz:


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Angie,
Since when? AKC has had a base fee of $25 + $2 a pup for quite awhile, regardless of how you register a litter-- online OR by mail. The only extra fee is if you need it expedited. My last 2 have been $37 (online, 6 puppies) and $39 (by mail due to it being a chilled breeding, 7 puppies). I don't recall paying anything extra for reg'g an individual pup on line either.... http://www.akc.org/reg/fee_schedule.cfm



Originally Posted by *Angie B*  

When was the last time any of you registered a litter or dog online? AKC hangs you $25 for the privilege.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

The $1.50 additional seems like a non event to me. What I see as the bigger issue, is that all the reins have just been handed right back to the original "ruling elite" of field trials. For a while, we had an independent player, in EE.

If there is this much flack over a small fee, what happens when a true sea change occurs such as dwindling entries due to high gas prices, loss of remaining grounds, allowing pros to judge, or holding Amateurs to true Amateur status? Folks, those of us who are not in the "club" are losing our last avenue to express our feelings. What is in the best interest of the sport? I think it depends on whose pocket holds the interest.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Pros should be allowed to judge.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

John, I don't think you followed the bouncing ball.

I added colors to the "key elements," hopefully making it clearer...


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

2tall said:


> The $1.50 additional seems like a non event to me. What I see as the bigger issue, is that all the reins have just been handed right back to the original "ruling elite" of field trials. For a while, we had an independent player, in EE.
> 
> If there is this much flack over a small fee, what happens when a true sea change occurs such as dwindling entries due to high gas prices, loss of remaining grounds, allowing pros to judge, or holding Amateurs to true Amateur status? Folks, those of us who are not in the "club" are losing our last avenue to express our feelings. What is in the best interest of the sport? I think it depends on whose pocket holds the interest.


How did Entry Express help you express your feelings? EE didn't allow the average dog handler into the "club." Things are the same as they were before the merger with $1.50 additional charge. You used to be able to send in a paper entry for free and now you can't. I wonder how many did it that way...

I think RTF is what allows everyone to "discuss."


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## Doug Shade (Jan 10, 2006)

I have not read all of your replies but I can tell you what I wrote to Entry Express. The fee increase is $1.50 for some, $2.50 for others. An average of $2.00 per dog fee increase. What do you bet that Retriever News came to Entry Express and offered a non-compete clause for a mere $2.00 per dog fee. Sounds like a little case of collusion to me?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

John Lash said:


> How did Entry Express help you express your feelings? EE didn't allow the average dog handler into the "club." Things are the same as they were before the merger with $1.50 additional charge. You used to be able to send in a paper entry for free and now you can't. I wonder how many did it that way...
> 
> I think RTF is what allows everyone to "discuss."


Sorry John, I made an incomplete statement. WHat I should have said is we have lost our last opportunity to express our "opinion" instead of "feelings" by choosing another entity than RFTN to make our entries. I know we can discuss it till the cows come home here, and say pretty much whatever we think. But there is no positive action we can take to protest current policy other than just not play. (I'm not sure this is any clearer after typing it, best I can do this morning)


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## Thumbs Up (Nov 26, 2004)

I feel they should earn the money. I will be sending my entries in by mail. One at a time. With a seprate check for each dog.This would be labor intensive....then those that did do online entries would get a break:/ Maybe or would they charge more for paper entries because they would have to do something other than push a button? Why do we need premiums at events when you can print the running order for pennies and bring it with you? If everyone mailed in entries would they get the message that this sport is about the dogs and the people running them....not the ......


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Thumbs Up said:


> Why do we need premiums at events when you can print the running order for pennies?


I think you mean catalogs not premiums. It would save clubs money if everyone printed out the running order from their computer.

Problem is ... we are creatures of habit. Those who enter AKC field trials and AKC hunt tests are used to getting a catalog at the event. Changing old habits would be tough. I don't think people would remember to print out the running order or would most people want to bother with printing the running order.

On the other hand, if the new owners-managers of Entry Express raise the cost the clubs have to pay for catalogs, things might change.

Instead of paying $2.19 per catalog and the cost of $50 to ship them, the clubs may decide to print the running order off the website, go to a copy shop and print it on copy paper, and hand out stapled sheets of paper. 

Whether that is less than $2.19 per catalog plus $50 shipping, I don't know.

Helen


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

helencalif said:


> I think you mean catalogs not premiums. It would save clubs money if everyone printed out the running order from their computer.


While this might help the savings would be relatively insignificant and what of those who are traveling or for whatever reason have no access to a computer?

As stated previously for my $80 in entry fees X 3 dogs X 2 stakes I expect a $2.19 program


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

EdA said:


> While this might help the savings would be relatively insignificant and what of those who are traveling or for whatever reason have no access to a computer?
> 
> As stated previously for my $80 in entry fees X 3 dogs X 2 stakes I expect a $2.19 program


How about a $77.81 entry fee and an online program?


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

They should just email everyone a .pdf of the catalog and make it clear to the participants that they will NOT receive a hard copy at the event. That way people could just print out the stake(s) they are interested in and save everyone some $ and some trees at the same time.

Green regards,,,,,


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

From the EE website.
Pricing for AKC club catalogs:
*$2.50ea < over 300 dogs will be $2.85ea*. You will receive one catalog for every .75 dogs. ex: 150 entries = 112 catalogs. If your club would like more or less, price will be negotiated on a per case basis.

Do the math for a field event with 250 entries catalogues cost a club $468.75. There are few clubs that consider $468.75 "insignificate". Most clubs work very hard keep cost down and to turn a profit on an event so you all can have a trial to run in. And some loose money.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Losthwy said:


> From the EE website.
> Pricing for AKC club catalogs:*$2.50ea
> **
> 
> ...


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

helencalif said:


> Losthwy said:
> 
> 
> > From the EE website.
> ...


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Last trial I wrote a check for over $400 to AKC for virtually nothing, except entering results.
This week I will write them another check for $695.50 for the same thing.

The catalog means more to those working the trial than running order. For the Sec it has valuable stats in the front, ( number QAA dogs in majors, dogs that are doubled entered ), addresses in the back. It also has a list of which handlers have dogs in different stakes, very helpful for marshals.
As for everyone printing their own running order, I can tell you, that ain't happening. The Sec will have to do extra, buy a printer, sort and staple..

I get it that people don't care how much extra work they are dumping on the volunteer help, but...
I'm with Ed, need the catalog.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

[FONT=&quot]FYI
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regulations & Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers (November 2010) 
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Excerpt from Chapter 1
General Regulations[/FONT]


*Section 20. Catalogs. *An Official Catalog may be
provided for a licensed or member club Hunting Test. The
Official Catalog, if prepared, must be printed, and shall conform
to the official size of not less than 51⁄2" x 81⁄2", but not
to exceed 81⁄2" x 11".
The Official Catalog shall list all dogs entered in each
Test (Junior, Senior and Master) in the order in which the
dogs were drawn with all identifying information called for
on the entry form (at least, but not limited to full name of
dog, registration number, breed, date of birth, and name of
owner and handler, if different from owner).
The Official Catalog shall state the name of the Hunting
Test-giving club, the date and location of the event and
shall state whether the Hunting Test is “Licensed by the
American Kennel Club” or held by a “AKC Member Club.”
The following certification must appear in the Official
Catalog following the last dog listed in each Test (Junior,
Senior and Master):
*JUDGE’S CERTIFICATION*
I certify that ________ dogs received Qualifying scores
in this Hunting Test and that the above information
identifying these dogs was entered prior to my signing
this page.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _________________________________
Judge’s Signature Judge’s Signature
*HUNTING TEST SECRETARY’S*
*CERTIFICATION*
I certify that the Judges have verified the above
information and signed this page. Number of dogs
entered ________________ Total Starters _______________ Total number
of Qualifying scores ________.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _________________________________________________
Date Signature of Hunting Test Secretary
Following completion of judging in each test, the
Hunting Test Secretary shall mark the Official Catalog
with the word “Qualifying” next to the names of all dogs
that received Qualifying scores. The Judges shall then
certify the accuracy of the marked awards, and both the
Hunting Test Secretary and the Judges shall complete
their appropriate certifications.
_Qualifying dogs shall not be announced nor shall_
_Qualifying ribbons be awarded until the Official Catalog has_
_been marked by the Event Secretary and both assigned Judges_
_for each individual test level or division thereof have certified_
_the accuracy of the Secretary’s Certification at the conclusion_
_of each testing level and/or division._
If a club chooses not to prepare an Official Catalog
(conforming to the official size of not less than 51⁄2" x 81⁄2"
but not to exceed 81⁄2" x 11"), it must utilize the standard
AKC Official Judges book for Hunting Tests which will
automatically be supplied to the Hunting Test Secretary
following approval of premium list copy. When a club
chooses this option, it may prepare a catalog, but the catalog
need not conform to the size and content requirements
stated above.
*Section 21. Submission of Records. *The Hunting
Test Secretary shall, within seven (7) days of the completion
of a licensed or member club Hunting Test, forward to
The American Kennel Club, the Official Catalog, marked
to indicate dogs that received Qualifying scores and signed
and certified by the Judges and the Hunting Test Secretary
(evaluation forms need not be submitted to AKC), the
complete Hunting Test Secretary’s Report of the Hunting
Test, and a signed Judge’s affirmation form for each judge
*must be sent to the American Kennel Club so as to*
*reach its office within seven (7) days after the close*
*of the event.*
A club holding a licensed or member club Hunting
Test shall retain either an Official Catalog or a copy of the
Official Judges book.


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## dennismc115 (Dec 16, 2005)

A copy and paste directly from EE website (format and emphasis mine):
_You will receive one catalog for every .75 dogs. ex: 150 entries = 112 catalogs. If your club would like more or less, price will be negotiated on a per case basis._

It has been a long time since I had any math instruction but something seems wrong here. If I am to receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs, a 150 dog entry should get me 200 catalogs.
*150/.75=200*

112 catalogs works out to .75 catalogs for every 1 dog

just saying.....


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Thanks for the info Vicky. What I read. AKC does not required a catalogue for Hunt Tests. If they are provided, though the sizes are mandated.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

dennismc115 said:


> It has been a long time since I had any math instruction but something seems wrong here. If I am to receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs, a 150 dog entry should get me 200 catalogs.
> *150/.75=200*
> 
> 112 catalogs works out to .75 catalogs for every 1 dog
> ...


try 150x.75 instead ;-)
no way 75% of 150 is 200
just sayin'



.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

dennismc115 said:


> A copy and paste directly from EE website (format and emphasis mine):
> _You will receive one catalog for every .75 dogs. ex: 150 entries = 112 catalogs. If your club would like more or less, price will be negotiated on a per case basis._
> 
> It has been a long time since I had any math instruction but something seems wrong here. If I am to receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs, a 150 dog entry should get me 200 catalogs.
> ...


You must be on Obama's fiscal team!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> try 150x.75 instead ;-)
> no way 75% of 150 is 200
> just sayin'
> 
> ...


Exactly. .75 catalogs per dog is to account for handlers with multiple dogs I believe.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

> try 150x.75 instead
> no way 75% of 150 is 200
> just sayin'


Sorry, Dennis is right on this one. If you are to receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs you will receive more catalogs than dogs.
The math you guys are using comes out to .75 catalogs for every dog entered, however it was stated that you would receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs entered.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Just went to Entry Express to post our club's results for last weekend. Now I understand why results from clubs that were previously with Retriever Entry clubs are so late in being posted. EE may not have set up the club secretary section!

Those of you who used to use Retriever Entry might want to give Entry Express a nudge to get your trial's admin page set up before your trial.

Calling them now to move the process along... Press 1 for Dogs Afield, 2 for Entry Express.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

mngundog said:


> Sorry, Dennis is right on this one. If you are to receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs you will receive more catalogs than dogs.
> The math you guys are using comes out to .75 catalogs for every dog entered, however it was stated that you would receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs entered.


so, if I enter two, three legged dogs I get 3 catologs??  


.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

If you entered two, three legged dogs you would receive 2.67 catalogs.
Is this one of your dogs? http://sprigkennels.com/video1.html


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

mngundog said:


> Sorry, Dennis is right on this one. If you are to receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs you will receive more catalogs than dogs.
> The math you guys are using comes out to .75 catalogs for every dog entered, however it was stated that you would receive 1 catalog for every .75 dogs entered.


He is an should be promoted to Geithner's spot immediately!


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

KJRice,
You've had a lot of strange AVATARS, but I think you should be barred for that one...


Is that the G spot?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

cakaiser said:


> Last trial I wrote a check for over $400 to AKC for virtually nothing, except entering results.





cakaiser said:


> This week I will write them another check for $695.50 for the same thing.
> 
> The catalog means more to those working the trial than running order. For the Sec it has valuable stats in the front, ( number QAA dogs in majors, dogs that are doubled entered ), addresses in the back. It also has a list of which handlers have dogs in different stakes, very helpful for marshals.
> As for everyone printing their own running order, I can tell you, that ain't happening. The Sec will have to do extra, buy a printer, sort and staple..
> ...


Agreed, no one is complaining about that...I don't remember what the fee is per dog now. I know it went up a lot once, then up again later.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Keith Stroyan said:


> KJRice,
> You've had a lot of strange AVATARS, but I think you should be barred for that one...
> 
> 
> Is that the G spot?


Must be a blue state thing.


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

Bet the VIP group is unhappy--large volume (pros) entries paid $2.00 each, pay by check before trial starts, etc. But then, who really is paying??


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Keith Stroyan said:


> KJRice,
> You've had a lot of strange AVATARS, but I think you should be barred for that one...
> 
> 
> Is that the G spot?


I am just amazed he could even lift Gooser like that.;-)
　
.


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

I was not really that upset about it. I usually am the type of guy that ends up entering the last couple hours anyway so have been paying the higher amount. So have been reading people complain and comment without much thought....

However I just registered for the Wasatch Double header HT May 1st. And got dinged for $9.00 for entering both days. Now that was like a kick to the crotch! I can understand a service fee, but entering a test or trial in multiple stakes I would think that a single transaction fee would be exceptible. A $4.50 fee per stake entered seems excesive. Maybe that is the norm and I just never realized it, but it did catch me off guard.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Boomer said:


> I WILL NOT PAY.
> I have informed my trainers not to enter my dogs at the 4.50 rate. If I can mail paper for free I will. I have sent an email to AKC asking if I must pay the 4.50 if I send paper. I would ask each of you to do the same. This is highway robbery. Where will the fee go next?
> Entry express was making money at 2.00 for VIP.


Really?!?!?!??

You have I presume multiple dogs with a trainer with the training fees and birds and travel that you pay and 4.50 is where you draw the line????????

Sucks that they have a monopoly, but if you don't like a monopoly, get writing that software and you can charge people what ever you want. A lot of people bitch about fees for stuff and have no idea what it costs to do business. Yes EE may have collected a butt load of money off of 15 tests last weekend. that is not everyweekend, and there is overhead, and they/he deserves a profit. If it was so profitable, he would not have been able to "merge" with the other companies. He was able to buy them out becasue they were not making money, or much, so they tooka "merger".

Like Keith said, sounds like a great time for someone to make a break from the corperate world that always bitvhes about not getting a raise......


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

kjrice said:


> Must be a blue state thing.


The thong was clearly red. Best that you removed it, tho.


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