# Best age to Neuter a hunting lab



## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Hello all! I have been absent from RTF for several years, but now have a new pup. All of you did a wonderful job helping me through the training process.

I am scheduled to have my lab Altered tomorrow and started thinking---is he a bit young, at 5 and one half months???

Thanks for the input!!!


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Best time: never.

If for some reason you are wedded to the idea, at least wait until he is finished growing.

Castration increases the rates of cruciate rupture, hip dysplasia, canine cognitive dysfunction, and the two cancers that kill the most dogs. The orthopedic issues are thought to be less if the procedure is done after he finishes growing.

Amy Dahl


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I would at least wait until 12-14 months, until he is full grown. 5 1/2 months is too early.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Just before he is 6 years old to decrease the likelihood of cancer if ever.

You will not convince me that cutting a dog's manhood off does not affect every part of his life thereafter (drive, physical appearance, etc...).

Personally I didn't pay this much for a dog and spend this much time and money training to cut most of what makes him male off and throw it in the trash. If I was going to do that I would have just gone to the local animal shelter and picked me up a good ol' companion (not saying those can't be just as good so don't start caning me on pound puppies).

Anyway, just my rant for the day. Do as you will with your dog but 5.5 months seems way too early in any regard.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

just read Amy's post so you can throw out my initial statment of 6 years to decrease risk of cancer.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Here's the male portion of a survey of the literature on the subject of s/n.

Eric 

***********
On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Eric Johnson said:


> On the negative side, neutering male dogs
> • if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
> • increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
> • triples the risk of hypothyroidism
> ...


there is compelling evidence that there is significant increase in CCL injuries as well

these prepuberal eunuchs grow long straight rear limbs

I would never advise neutering a large breed or athletic dog until his epiphyses (growth plates) are closed


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Here's a dumb (and perhaps loaded) question...if it's the latter, please go easy on me--I don't intend to rock the boat.

Why is neutering pushed so hard by vets if it causes all the health risks outlined here?

I mean, I can buy the idea that vets (especially city/suburb vets) push neutering to prevent unwanted litters. 

I can even accept the more cynical explanation that vets just see dollar signs and don't care about how much hunting drive our dog has, so they're gunning for the fee of performing the surgery.

But vets don't want our dogs to get cancer, hip displaysia or anything else any more than we do.

Good or bad, my wife and I neutered our BLM, largely because of the urging of our vet who assured us it would help _prevent _, not cause, health problems down the road.

Obviously, that train has left the station for our dog, but I just ask for the sake of our next one, who will probably be male, too.

Thanks

Ryan


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

IN MY OPINION, the main reason that Vets push the early (or any) neutering is to prevent the unwanted litters. If you think about it, 1 male (and/or female) who is left intact can turn around and create 6-12 more just like them. If it happens multiple times, look at how many more dogs are out there. 

I also think that in most cases (IMO), the vets feel that this guarantee that no unwanted litters will result after completed, far outweighs the other risks that are out there. I also am not sure that they know every single outcome for every single breed. 

Who knows.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Zman1001 said:


> IN MY OPINION, the main reason that Vets push the early (or any) neutering is to prevent the unwanted litters.


actually I doubt that is a reason in the top 5

Most veterinarians are city practitioners with little or no exposure to athletic dogs and little incentive to research the issue.

Further they are unaware of any negatives associated with early spay/neuter, they merely regurgitate what they have been told


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

afdahl said:


> Best time: never.
> 
> If for some reason you are wedded to the idea, at least wait until he is finished growing.
> 
> ...


Amy, what are the two cancers that kill dogs the most? (and I'm guessing one would be Mast Cell tumors?)

Thanks,


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

EdA said:


> actually I doubt that is a reason in the top 5
> 
> Most veterinarians are city practitioners with little or no exposure to athletic dogs and little incentive to research the issue.
> 
> Further they are unaware of any negatives associated with early spay/neuter, they merely regurgitate what they have been told


I would have to say it is a combination of the two. Unwanted litters and little incentive to research the issues associated with neutering.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Ron in Portland said:


> Amy, what are the two cancers that kill dogs the most? (and I'm guessing one would be Mast Cell tumors?)
> 
> Thanks,


They have already been mentioned on this thread: osteosarcoma and cardiac hemangioma. It's possible that I got it wrong, that they're #1 and #3--it's been a few months since I read up on this.

In some other really interesting research, James Sirpell at Penn has been finding significant (i.e. statistically) *increases* in a variety of behavior problems with castration. Again not what most people hear from their vets.

I think part of the reason for early spay/neuter is that people see their vet several times while their puppy is growing up, for shots and checkups, and the vets want to get that appointment made while the relationship is still strong. I think Ed is right; vets were told in vet school that spay/neuter makes dogs healthier. They have lots of other stuff to learn in their continuing ed and most have not focused on recent findings on consequences of castration. My repro vet is all over it but my regular vets do those routine pediatric spay/castrates. Notwithstanding that my vet's ex is a big-deal bird dog trainer/breeder.

Amy Dahl


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

I really appreciate the responses. 

Honestly, and maybe this just shows my ignorance and lack of experience, but the posts here are the first and only negative things I've heard about neutering other than taking a slight edge off a dog's hunting drive.

I could deal with that when I agreed to have my dog fixed, but health risks like those mentioned here would have completely changed my mind.

But, with all due respect, I have to wonder if the posts here are skewed a bit because of the whole us vs. them thing of working dogs/trainers vs. city slicker vets and pampered pets. I mean, someone can always dig up "stats" to "prove" just about anything.

Don't get me wrong, I despise touchy-feely, PC, "cityfied" vets, and would have no problem taking sides against them, but a few things said here make me kinda wonder....



> Most veterinarians are city practitioners with little or no exposure to athletic dogs and little incentive to research the issue.


How does experience with athletic dogs matter (I'm honestly asking, not arguing)? Isn't an increased risk of cancer an increased risk of cancer, whether the neutered dog is a FT Lab or a couch potato Daschund?

Also...



> Further they are unaware of any negatives associated with early spay/neuter, they merely regurgitate what they have been told


Neutering is probably the most common procedure performed on dogs. Why, HOW could a vet NOT know about such pronounced dangers as those listed here?? Again, I'm just asking. I mean, if the things said here are 100 percent true, dogs of all kinds would be dropping like flies.

Is there a vet here on RTF that can respond to this discussion??


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## rabersin (Dec 2, 2009)

I agree with never, and especially not on such a young dog. I just had a litter of pups and many of the new owners are asking me about altering their puppies, (15 weeks old). They are telling me their vets are encouraging it at this yooung age. I have been advising them against altering the dog and if they do want to alter the dog, wait until they are grown. It just surprises me that Vets would be encouraging this.


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

> Is there a vet here on RTF that can respond to this discussion??


EdA has already!


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Wyldfire said:


> EdA has already!


And how was I supposed to know that 

Point taken. 

What's been said here still doesn't quite add up....but most likely because the whole story's not being told, not because the previous posters are all wrong. 

Like I said, if neutering was so dangerous, it stands to reason that A) there'd be a lot more sick dogs out there and B) if there were all these neutering-induced health problems, vets would be changing their ways.

After all, they're out to make money, sure, but so are human doctors.....they're not deliberately making people sick just to make a buck.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

More research is needed on performance and hunting dogs for sure, but what has been done, is pointing away from early spay and neuter, especially dealing with acls. I am very opnionated on this point and require buyers to initial my puppy guarantee that I have explained to them to wait and that they understand it is their choice. In the last few years there seems to be less opposition from some vets according to some buyers, so some are taking notice; however, these are not big city vets but more rural vets. And I agree, my repro vet was the first to back it and the regular vets are skeptical, but some are not being as pushy. One vet I also consider my friend, and I send her the research findings when I see them. I also link to these findings so my puppy owners can go prepared.


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, what advice (if any) is there from someone like me, who's made the apparent mistake of having their dog neutered. 

Obviously, there's no going back, but is there any preventative measures one can take (administering supplements, chaning diet, etc) that might reduce the chances of the health problems mentioned in this thread?

I'm not so much concerned about a performance edge, as my dog is well beyond the drive, energy and intensity level I need for my amount/style of hunting, and I don't intend to run hunt tests or the like.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

As a breeder and lifelong just plain pet dog owner and involved with a humane society, I do see some negatives to early spay/neuter and do give my buyers the info for the pros and cons so they can make an informed decision by doing some research and not just get swayed by the standard vet speech concerning cancer prevention and behavior modification, the cure-alls of spay/neuter (sorry vets, I have utmost respect for the profession and my vet is one of my good friends for going on 20 years now). Early spay/neuter was promoted as a means to stop unwanted litters, cancer prevention and behavior modification and while there was science behind it preventing some cancers and behaviors like aggression, science changes as research and time goes on. How many times has the food pyramid been changed for humans? How long and involved was (and still is) the controversy when the vaccine schedules were modified? More studies need to be done but really, what is the rush to spay/neuter before a puppy is done growing at the very least, assuming the owner is responsible enough to keep their dog from wanton breeding?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Obabikon said:


> What's been said here still doesn't quite add up.....


Don't overthink the issue, delaying spaying and neutering (at least until after puberty) reduces the incidence of some pesky problems

prepuberal ovariohysterectomy seems to increase the risk of urinary incontinence and females who have prepuberal vaginitis will be forever plagued if not allowed to have a heat cycle

research of the Veterinary Database has shown higher incidences of musculoskeletal injury (primarily cranial cruciate ligament rupture) in spayed females and neutered males than in their intact counterparts

believe if you wish or just dismiss the ramblings of a bunch of experienced dog people as bunk

the original poster wanted information about neutering a 5 1/2 month old and he/she was given the best information that we as a group have


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

You can fill a lot of books with the things Vets and Dr's don't know. The rate of carriers for EIC is around 40% but most vets don't know what it is or are only now finding out. We all have the same number of hours to spend and you can't read everything. There is also the agend's that each of us has for what we believe to be the best thing.


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> believe if you wish or just dismiss the ramblings of a bunch of experienced dog people as bunk


I'm sorry, EdA, that post must have come across differently than I'd intended. 

I never meant that what you've said is bunk....did you read the rest of that same sentence?



> ...but most likely because the whole story's not being told, not because the previous posters are all wrong.


Of course I'm not dimissing your findings. You obviously know infinitely more about this topic than I do. 

But I am asking questions. I am trying to truly understand things that I do not. I am not assuming things or taking everything I read and hear on a website at face value.

Most of all, I'm taking part in a discussion--isn't that what this forum is for? I didn't know we couldn't ask questions, or even politely dispute the answers we get.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

The study I mention is the first of it's kind so far as I know. The author took more than 50 studies of s/n and wrote about them as a whole. IOW, if a study said this or that to be true she skipped the science behind it and just annotated where the study is found. She was interested in how the studies inter-relate. Candidly she began this to see if there were counter-arguments to the mandatory s/n movement that was being legislated in California. 

What the author did was develop the pattern of all these subtle conclusions into a semblance of order. A study might say that by spaying, a dog has a <.5% increase in the probablility of a certain cancer. That doesn't sound like much but then she pulls in all these other studies and finds increased risk of this and that as well. She is very straight-forward. She isn't advocating against s/n. She simply tells what the risks and benefits are from an overall perspective.

Since I posted the summary for males, here it is for females. Note: Anyone that wants the complete study, PM me with your email address. It's is very "email-able."

Eric

*************
For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

The findings that Eric posted say that altered dogs gain weight. Almost all the vets that you ask say that altering a dog will not cause weight gain. Anyone have any info on this?


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Obabikon said:


> Of course I'm not dimissing your findings. You obviously know infinitely more about this topic than I do.
> 
> But I am asking questions. I am trying to truly understand things that I do not. I am not assuming things or taking everything I read and hear on a website at face value.


A nice article by Christine Zink, DVM, PhD (it's been around awhile and most of the information on cancers is more recent):

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

There are all kinds of papers about Canine Cognitive Dysfunction and the protective effect of testosterone. You can Google that, and also Google James Sirpell if you want the behavioral stuff. Prior to Sirpell, there were studies with terrible methodologies, such as telling people how castration would affect their dogs' behavior, doing the surgery, and then calling them back to as how behavior was affected.

You can also get to the information on cancer by Googling some of the people referenced in the Zink article.

Amy Dahl


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## Jennifer Teed (Jan 28, 2009)

I was one of the few around here to wait to spay my pup. She's almost a year and a half now, and I haven't gotten her spayed. I am planning on it but I just wanted to wait until after her first heat and until she was all grown up. 

I talked to my vet (owner of dozens of giant breed dogs), and he was straight forward with me and said the majority of owners are unable/ not responsible enough to handle a bitch in heat. They slip away for a moment and produce unwanted litters. He told me that he agrees with me and also wouldn't spay his females until their full grown. However, everyone at that clinics including this vet still pushes to s/n at 6 months.

So in my case it's to prevent unwanted litters and to get less dogs turned into the shelter.


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## jefflab5 (Jan 15, 2008)

I think there was a pretty decent article in one of the past Retriever Journals. I had my dog neutered after he was all done growing. This was the first dog that I had this done to. I was hoping based on what I had read and been told that it would alleviate some of the issues that can arise and lead to other complications as the dog aged. 

My last male wirehair was intact and had all kinds of issues later in life, infections of prostrate and bladder.


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## mufb (Dec 8, 2009)

One of the reasons I picked my vet for my new pup was our history with him (30 years) and him being a hunter and bird dog owner. Even though he is about a 35-40 minute drive from home and there are several other vets as I live in a larger city. He indicated what a lot of folks are stating here that if you are responsible the benefits of not s/n outweigh the benefits of s/n. He recommended not neutering my male at all and if I chose to do so wait until he was at least 2 years old. He gave the same advice to my dad who has a BLM and is soley a house pet.


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Wasn't mentioned until the 21 st. post but I think a lot of folks including vets encourage early neutering of boys because of perceived behavior issue that may pop up.

Marking, humping, aggression, dominance, always looking for girls, nose stuck to the ground, roaming, etc...

Apparently those behaviors can all be "fixed" or prevented by chopping off the nuts.  

Folks serious about obedience routinely neuter their boys for those reason and spay their girls to avoid breaks in training and the changes in behavior caused by seasons. 

And I know folks with hard core field dogs, that have no interest in breeding, who neuter and spay so that those hormones don't interfere with training or tests.

Regards,
Linda


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Marking, humping, aggression, dominance, always looking for girls, nose stuck to the ground, roaming, etc...


I still don't think you have to neuter that early to prevent those problems. Most males don't start those behaviors until they are past 12-14 months.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I still don't think you have to neuter that early to prevent those problems. Most males don't start those behaviors until they are past 12-14 months.


some of the most ill mannered and obnoxious dogs that come into my clinic have been spayed or neutered

most undesirable behavior is a training issue not a hormonal one


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

I spayed my female JRT when she was 6 months old. She had TPLO surgery on both of her knees, and she humps the cat all the time. No incontinence.

I neutered my male JRT when he was 6 month old. I can't imagine what he would be like with a free flow of testosterone-yikes. He is quite a terrier-aggressive to just about any other dog he sees at first, but he will play later. He humps the cat (but not nearly as often as my female JRT), and my intact male lab. He will mark anything he can.

My intact male lab is 3 1/2, and is sweet, gentle, not aggressive and takes whatever the other two dish out. He is incredibly patient with puppies, and is an all around good boy. He doesn't have obnoxious male behaviors-humping, marking, aggression. He has been collected twice but no natural breedings.

My female lab is just coming a year, and she hasn't come into season yet. I don't think I want to breed her, so will likely spay her, but she will go through one heat first.

Wait to fix your dog until it's skeleton is done growing, at least.


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## MoJo (Mar 24, 2004)

I've only had two male giant breed dogs and the first was neutered at 5.5 months as per the instructions of his breeder. I *and I kick myself for this* did not know any better. He developed excessive long bone growth, stifle laxity, hip dysplasia (moderate) and there was no history of any of these in his lines. He was pretty lame by the time he was 2 and ultimately died as the result of Osteosarcoma at the age of 7.

My second Great Pyrenees was treated differently. When I put a deposit on him, I specifically told his breeder that he *would* be neutered, but when was the question, not if. She wanted to have him neutered prior to his coming to me at 10 weeks. I would not accept that and she trusted me enough to believe me.

I also asked that to make her feel more comfortable, she should sell him to me on a limited registration. I had no desire to breed this dog, but just wanted a guard dog in the house. In this case, I had no concerns with a limited registration as he is a pet and an HGD (House Guardian Dog), and one of my best friends.

I perhaps should have waited longer, but had this done at 13 months. My understanding is that giant breeds tend to grow more slowly. He now almost 3, has straight legs, no sign of lameness and is robust and healthy. Personally, I would never again have a dog neutered before a year old and that is the least time I would wait.

Annecdotal evidence does not a study make, but in this case, similar lines (the dogs were cousins), all clearances done on parents and the breeder had never produced a dysplastic dog. There are no conclusions that can be drawn form my very limited "study", if you will, but the experience I had with these two dogs has me convinced. 

My bitches go through at least one heat cycle prior to being spayed. I would rather deal with the inconvenience of potential urinary incontinence that bone problems later on.

Getting off the soapbox regards,


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## Peggy Snyder (Jan 12, 2008)

I was talking to a couple that decided to get a pup from the animal shelter but they
had to wait for a couple of days because they were spaying and neutering the 8 week
old puppies. The animal shelter told them that was the best age........

These were what looked like labradors but am not sure if they had a mix...

But I've heard of breeders spay and neutering very early and I agree with above--too early.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

For what it's worth. 
For the general "Pet" population I encouage the practice of spy/ nueter by 1yr to reduce the overpopulation., behavioral issues,etc...
Making "Fido" and "it" doesn't have any effect on his hunting skills, his nose ,his prey drive or his ability to learn.
BUT it does decrease his abilities to be an a--h-- in the duck blind or out in the field.or at my kennel., at the house.
The stats on some of the issues is small in a large general population is it worth NOT spaying/nuetering??
And yes if it is my dog and she/he died form one of the cancers and would I be upset that I spayed/nuetered too soon or had TPLO surgery Yes. 
But cruiciate ligment injuries seem to be one of the biggest injuries in all athletes human or dog.
And cancers............. I've seen it happen in all breeds at all ages spayed nor spayed.
If someone comes to me (General public) and asks about nueter/spay. I'd say do it.
As far recooping your costs for your dog(studding him out or breeding her to get some of your $$ back that you have in her) Good grief Seriously???
If they are your hunting partner in my opinion they've earned their keep many times over.
IMHPO of coarse.
Sue


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## Rob G (Dec 5, 2007)

I neutered my YLM when he was 4 years old. After deciding that he was not going to be used for breeding purposes and had a few behavioral issues that I thought neutering might address.

Other than him licking the stitches to the point of infection and several weeks in the e-collar, he is still the same dog. Same drive, same personality, same stubborness, and same weight and body type. I did have to reduce his food a bit, but he is as lean as he ever was.

Maybe he is an exception, but I get tired of seeing people with obese dogs and hearing them blame it on them being neutered.

If I had to do it over again, I would NOT neuter my dog. I could have saved myself the money and hassle as I did not see any noticable difference in behavior.

Rob G


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

FWIW my GF and i rescued a toller/pit mix that had some marking,humping,jumping issues and we believed castration would fix it...NOPE didnt help one bit....spending time with the dog showing it affection and giving him a job helped alot......NOW i have a big question my BLM only has one testicle down he is 16 mo old i have been advised by my vet to have hin cut ASAP but i dont think so i do not know if the other testicle is in his belly or if he was born with only one......what do you guys say cut or no??? ps i have 2 siblings and they both only have one so i assume it is hereditary


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> NOW i have a big question my BLM only has one testicle down he is 16 mo old i have been advised by my vet to have hin cut ASAP but i dont think so i do not know if the other testicle is in his belly or if he was born with only one......what do you guys say cut or no??? ps i have 2 siblings and they both only have one so i assume it is hereditary


You need to find out if there is another testicle and to get it out of there because there is a proven risk of cancer if you leave it in him. If you are really opposed to complete neutering leave the normal one.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Marking, humping, aggression, dominance, always looking for girls, nose stuck to the ground, roaming, etc...
> 
> Apparently those behaviors can all be "fixed" or prevented by chopping off the nuts. :wink:


 
I have a dog that never had a nut in his life,, he had them removed from the kidney at 18 months

He can display all those traits you just mentioned that he cannot,,, Oh except roaming ,,he cant roam.

Now what do we do.?

Pete


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

thanks Nancy i am not really opposed or for complete neureting i AM wanting what is best for my boys....so in this case should i leave the one or since surgery will probaly be required get them both at the same time???? Also can i feel it somehow or should a vet determine where it is ???


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Marty Lee said:


> thanks Nancy i am not really opposed or for complete neureting i AM wanting what is best for my boys....so in this case should i leave the one or since surgery will probaly be required get them both at the same time???? Also can i feel it somehow or should a vet determine where it is ???


I would think the only way you could feel it would be if it was right in the canal or above. Otherwise it could be anywhere in the abdomen. I know people who have left one. I'm not advising either way but get the other one out if it is in the body.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Nuetering males that have "Set" behaviors doesn't change those behaviors much. For Example: the 4yr old ???
You've heard the saying "Once an a------ always an as-----".:razz:
*High standards* for those dogs and *knowing the pedigrees* of such dogs will help.
*Pet* population dogs "*If"* not knowing the pedigree........... I still say spay/nueter than take an Obed. class , work with a Pro.,or find another dog or pet.
Working in the pet population and boarding is a real eye opener.
Sue


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Nancy,
If the vet. is going to remove the testicle that is retained why not simply nueter the dog??
Yes, I know that one testicle can still sire puppies but is it not hereitary???
The thread is titled:
"Best age to Nueter a hunting dog".
I'm confused.
Sue


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

Sue and to the OP i am sorry i hijacked the thread it just got me thinking again about my situation.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Nancy,
> If the vet. is going to remove the testicle that is retained why not simply nueter the dog??
> Yes, I know that one testicle can still sire puppies but is it not hereitary???
> The thread is titled:
> ...


This is a case where the person wanted an Open FT dog, was not interested in breeding, and felt they wanted to leave the normal testicle intact because they felt they needed the oomph for those long water marks. Yes it was OT but in response to Marty Lee's comment about what's best for the dog and can the normal testicle be left alone.


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

if i have both removed how long should we wait they are 16 mos old now?
or should i move on this now?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Marty Lee said:


> if i have both removed how long should we wait they are 16 mos old now?
> or should i move on this now?


Maybe a vet will answer. I believe you have some time but I think he is old enough now and I would be wanting to get that one out. I know it won't turn cancerous at a very young age.


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## Rob G (Dec 5, 2007)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Nuetering males that have "Set" behaviors doesn't change those behaviors much. For Example: the 4yr old ???


He's a pretty high strung dog. I hoped cutting him might settle him down a notch or two (not the case). I had several people "in the know" advise me that it might help.

I figured if I had to live another 10 years or so with him, it might be worth a shot.


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## labdoc (Apr 18, 2003)

Obabikon said:


> And how was I supposed to know that
> 
> Point taken.
> 
> ...


The problem is that there are positives and negatives with spay and neuter and therefore it takes an educated client to question all the pet overpopulation hype and get beyond that thinking. This comes down to balancing pros and cons and it is impossible for the average veterinarian to make that decision for each client or to spend the time educating them concerning this issue. Therefore blanket recommendations are made which fit most people's wishes but not all. Personally my females are all intact but 90+% of my client's animals are neutered as they wish. Often it comes down to the fact that they don't want the responsibility of an intact animal. If this is their only reason, that is adequate to make a decision to neuter. My point is do what is best for you after you get all the information and be happy with your decision. With such a larger percentage being neutered, identifying risk factors becomes more difficult because one has no significant control group (intact animals). Cancer definitely seems to be diagnosed more in pets, but determining whether that is due to neutering, better detection, longer life spans, loss of the ozone layer, or any other factor is impossible with any certainty.

In response to another question, no research has shown that neutered animals must get fat, but it has been shown that their metabolism requirements drop therefore they need less food. it_ appears _from the general population that neutering causes obesity. 

I seem to recall an English study that suggested spaying reduced a bitch's sense of smell but for the life of me cannot a reference. Has anyone else seen this?


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

Marty Lee said:


> if i have both removed how long should we wait they are 16 mos old now?
> or should i move on this now?


When I was at a reproductive seminar with Dr Hutchison (a well known repro vet), somebody asked him this question - "how long can we safely wait to neuter a dog with an undesended testicle". Dr Hutchison said he would want to see that undesended testicle out by the time the dog was 3 yrs old.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Tollwest said:


> When I was at a reproductive seminar with Dr Hutchison (a well known repro vet), somebody asked him this question - "how long can we safely wait to neuter a dog with an undesended testicle". Dr Hutchison said he would want to see that undesended testicle out by the time the dog was 3 yrs old.


 Good to know that's what he said.


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

Thank you tollwest AND ALL


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Postscript---- I canceled the appointment. Thank you all for the spirited debate, and more importantly the breadth of information. You prompted me to do some research on a topic in which I was ill-informed. 

I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge, the candid discussion and especially the input from those of you that are in the profession. You all have helped me make an informed decision. At minimum, I will wait untill "Briar" is 14 months, and in the mean time I will learn more. 

Again, thanks to all that have posted.

I was a regular on RTF about 10 years ago while training Bramble--my first lab. It is very nice to back! I am certain I will get some excellent advice traing Briar!

Take care all, John,


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## kremerd (May 23, 2007)

I recently read a study on spay/neuter on this site, can not remember the title but I think it was a study done recently in Europe. It showed far more negatives for neuter than positives. Sorry I don't remember the post. It would sure make my decision easy, no neuter.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

This thread really bums me out! I agreed to the wife last night to have my boy neutered, and this thread makes me queezy to say the least. He is almost two years old and we decided we did not want to breed him (even though I love him so much!!). RATS!!!


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## labdoc (Apr 18, 2003)

Well just think you could have agreed with your wife to get yourself done! There is always a positive side to everything. Why don't you go for the neutical implants than at least you won't notice that he is neutered. Why you are at it, up the size a little.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

labdoc said:


> Well just think you could have agreed with your wife to get yourself done!


HaHahahhaaahaa! I've been done for quite a while! Mother nature takes care of some things naturally!! 

I do like the implant idea, of course if the implants are too large, seating a duck could become impossible! :shock:


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

labdoc said:


> Well just think you could have agreed with your wife to get yourself done! There is always a positive side to everything. Why don't you go for the neutical implants than at least you won't notice that he is neutered. Why you are at it, up the size a little.


Wrong wrong wrong.....except the up the size a little...actually up the size alot.


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

Interesting--I am going through a phase of some aggression with my 20mos YLM-- some folks say CUT some say NO- Vet all for it-me I am afraid of being next in line as we have three horses(cut) three labs(1cut for med reasons?) and one cat(cut) me I'm old but still intact and want to stay that way--Seriously though- young dog seems to being trying to take over our pack-- I am working on it and he is only aggressive at feeding time or if older dog looks like he want to go into 20 Mos old's kennel in garage--outside,in my shop, etc they have no issues??


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## LokiMeister (Jan 15, 2010)

I had my YLM neutered at 6 mo. to the day. It was set up on the first visit after I got him. At about 5-1/2 mo. he started humping me while I was on the floor, we lived alone in a condo, so I was all he had. The day he was neutered, all that stopped. Great guy and has never been fat. 

Every fat lab I see at the dog park or at friends, isn't trained and doesn't get any exercise, neutered or intact.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Obabikon said:


> And how was I supposed to know that
> 
> Point taken.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not a vet but I'm surprised no one has brought up the obvious answer: that early spay/neuter along with mandatory spay/neuter legislation cropping up everywhere, is a lynch pin of the insidious animal rights agenda, which many young vets are now taught in schools. Remember animal rights activists' agenda is for a meatless, petless society.

Nor do I think most vets encourage gonadectomies to fatten their coffers. Most strictly pet vets make plenty of money if they're good. Sadly though, many are victims of the insidious animal rights campaigns that seek to brainwash the public that EVERY dog should be spayed or neutered. Especially the younger vets, who may have no connection to working animals and hunting and/or farming.

I hackle up when I take a dog to a vet that starts in on me with the spay/neuter lectures, because I know that same vet is probably also anti hunting and anti ecollar, etc. Leaving aside the pros and cons of neutering and spaying, which has been pretty well covered in this thread, many vets, like much of the well intentioned but kool aid drinking pet owning public, think that unwanted litters are a huge part of the pet overpopulation problem.

Facts do not bear this out and the fact is that most responsible dog owners, even just house pet owners, don't let their dogs have unplanned litters, or not enough to the point that those accidents are the main cause of how many pets get euthanized annually. Most shelter dogs that don't get adopted and end up PTS are ones that are turned in because of the ever-increasing mindset that a dog is a disposable item you can just get rid of when it becomes inconvenient. Spaying and neutering don't do a thing about that problem.

Look how successful the HSUS and PETA campaign that every dog bought from a breeder means a shelter dog is PTS. Or every unneutered/unspayed dog can result in 20 or more unwanted puppies every year. Both are steaming crocks of jenkem but readily inhaled by the public as they send their cash donations into these LOBBYING organizations. The reality is that every dollar sent to PETA means one more dog PTS, PETA and HSUS do not operate ONE SINGLE shelter and PETA euthanizes something like 94% of the dogs turned in to it. They collect money to lobby for restrictive laws and regulations on your right to OWN an animal. They don't do a thing about or give a damn about animal welfare.

That said, I don't have a problem with real shelters or rescue organizations requiring adopted animals to be neutered. This still doesn't solve the high rate of owner surrenders, but it's one less thing they have to worry about. Even if it's done at a younger age than science recommends, the benefits probably outweigh the risks.

But for responsible dog owners, and I do believe everyone that reads this board regularly probably falls into that category, spaying or neutering is a personal decision that should be undertaken after all facts are taken into consideration, especially how it will affect the animal's performance.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> especially how it will affect the animal's performance.


Julie, Given the fact I hope you know how much I admire and look up to you in all of these things we do with our dogs, how much do you think performance is altered if the dog is nuetered? The answer from you could change my dogs fate! 
I can say this, I can't afford or desire to loose what performance we have!!


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Julie--point is well taken, though I am still trying to figure out what "steaming crocks of jenkem" are. You make some excellent points! 

My wife just adopted a pound pooch and I have been searching the shelters for about a month. Number one and two breeds that have been incarcerated the longest here in Northern Ca: Lab/pitbull mix, followed closely by chihuahua. 

Take care, John Lodi ca


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Byron Musick said:


> how much do you think performance is altered if the dog is nuetered? !


classical deductive reasoning

Anabolic steroids = performance enhancing drug

Testosterone = anabolic steroid

therefore

Testosterone = performance enhancing drug


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

"Testosterone = performance enhancing drug"

Well, gosh that was too easy! I must of missed it in the thread somewhere! Thanks, been overthinking things lately I guess, the emotional debate. Thanks!!


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Byron, I wouldn't neuter him, even if the wife thinks it's a good idea. Bring her to training and I'll give one of my animal rights spiels ;-) And, my personal feeling of course don't have any proof, is when the chips are down and you're asking him to do something like a tough water blind on a cold, windy day, I do think the intact animal might have an edge.

Tell her you'll get rich off his stud fees after you hang those titles all over him.


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## Susie Royer (Feb 4, 2005)

7pntail said:


> Julie--point is well taken, though I am still trying to figure out what "steaming crocks of jenkem" are.


Do search on jenkem on the net ;-) ROFLMAO


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> Byron, I wouldn't neuter him, even if the wife thinks it's a good idea. Bring her to training and I'll give one of my animal rights spiels ;-) And, my personal feeling of course don't have any proof, is when the chips are down and you're asking him to do something like a tough water blind on a cold, windy day, I do think the intact animal might have an edge.
> 
> Tell her you'll get rich off his stud fees after you hang those titles all over him.


Now that right there is AWESOME!!!! Thank you so much! My wife is considering my ability to comprehend and make solid decision's. Yes I have been all over the map on this subject! I am not an expert by any means, all I can tell you is I have spent the last 20 months with a dog training it, almost daily. Yes we gots us a JH title, but there is something in his eye that I guess only I can see. The other day we did a SH set up for a test, the wife afterword said, on his 110 yard blind, wow what a difference, he was so focused, sat so crisp, etc...! Her issue (and mine) lately its been about his tail being in the air, (you know, the dog having a great time) and his tail was high in the air! Been working on blind attitude and its paying off!!

It was one of those days where I felt like a million bucks, he made me so proud. No I understand it was not in competition, but it was in training, to me that was all I needed..

I'm not a big competitor, to me training and doing something with my dog is what I am after, the ribbons are just something cool to add.. I do want some more, but I will be ready before I go after em!!!

Good News, agreed that we will check his vitals', OFA Hips and Elbows, Eye's cerf, CNM, EIC, etc. in that order..

If he can roger up to the task, he gets a stay of manly hood, I had to compromise!

I think he will be good, yes he's a conformation dog, comes out of Canada and has lots of Conformation, Canine Good Citizen titles, We are the first to crack a AKC JH title in 4 of his generations (yes that sounds bad, but he is good up in Canada, all I can prove it AKC). I think he has similar CKC titles in there, but I don't have the data, but he does come from a good breeder up in Canada, anyone heard of Bralex (one half of his past)? Stay of Neuter approved, mission success!!!


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Byron Musick said:


> Julie, Given the fact I hope you know how much I admire and look up to you in all of these things we do with our dogs, how much do you think performance is altered if the dog is nuetered? The answer from you could change my dogs fate!


I'm not Julie, but I believe I have seen time and again that the difference between intact male Labs and their castrated counterparts is profound.

I approached this subject years ago having fully drunk the "it won't change a thing" koolaid. Trained lots of intact males and a few "altered" ones. The difference didn't just stare me in the face; it beat me over the head as with a 2 x 4.

Physically, the "altered" males tended to be soft and very hard to build up (could not build muscular physiques).

In attitude, the intact males, once I got their attention, seemed to concentrate and "buy in" to the process of training, whether it was retrieving, force fetching, or plain old obedience. The "altered" males would, given the opportunity, walk away and, in some cases, just lie down.

In learning style, the intact males would "get" the day's lesson, and come out the next day remembering what they'd learned and ready to build on it. The "altered" dogs would make progress from beginning to end of one day's lesson, and then come out the next day showing little recognition and have to do it over again. Over a period of time their behavior could be modified, but getting there was boring and repetitive.

(I described this effect to my Dad, a retired MD, whose response was, "it sounds like the effects of a lobotomy." I have heard the old-timers use that word to refer to castration of dogs.)

I trained one Lab before and after he was cut. Before, he was a quick learner, paid attention, and made rapid progress. When he came back afterward, he was totally set in his ways. I could not change a thing about the way he retrieved. This was just a couple of years ago; the change in that one dog matched my observations about intact vs. "altered" dogs as groups.

I have trained three desexed male Chesapeakes. They all responded well to training and learned fast. Three is a very small sample size, but there aren't three dogs that good among the entire group of "altered" Labs I've trained. Tentatively I think there may be breed effects (so Julie may not be the best person to ask!).

There are people around who will tell you they had their dog done and it didn't make any difference. I believe my own observations because (1) I've trained a large number of Labs, (2) I began with the opposite bias, and (3) I'm a disciplined observer, a former scientist.

Your mileage may vary.

Amy Dahl


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

Excellent post JulieR-HSUS-PETA are even worse for our animals and sport than Walt Disney was-


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

afdahl said:


> Your mileage may vary.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Amy,


Anything you say has had and will always have lots of mileage! 

Thanks again! 

I have promised to alter the premises to accomidate keeping him intact! 

R/ Byron


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

a new drug called 'Jenkem,' made by fermenting raw sewage---- wow that is neat stuff. I can learn a lot on this site!!!! Anybody tried it??


Again, thanks to all that have posted. My first lab Bramble was neutered at age 8 months. Incredible hunting dawg although, I am sure, too soft for you Professionals. My pup seems to have incredible desire--I am sure I will have some questions for you all when we get in some serious training. 

Again THANK YOU!! John Lodi ca


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

7pntail said:


> Hello all! I have been absent from RTF for several years, but now have a new pup. All of you did a wonderful job helping me through the training process.
> 
> I am scheduled to have my lab Altered tomorrow and started thinking---is he a bit young, at 5 and one half months???
> 
> Thanks for the input!!!


Hi

No way would I "Altered" my 5.5 month old male. The vets around here, thats the first thing they want to do. I let them know right away, no way.

Regards
Jeff
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> classical deductive reasoning
> 
> Anabolic steroids = performance enhancing drug
> 
> ...


And there you have it ladies-write that on your hand so you don't forget it. 

Man Law Chapter 1 regards

Bubba


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

So should i now give it to my Wife?-DUH


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Though Amy and Ed both have great pts. 
Can I add something to their mix??

 The age of spay/nueter. 6months vs. 18months (For ex.)
The proper handling of said dog(socializing, puppy classes, any teaching the puppy to learn)prior to nueter/spay.
I think those pts. have some baring on this thread.
Food for thought.
Also for the "average" Joe Hunter, I still think that spay/nueter is best.


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## LokiMeister (Jan 15, 2010)

Hey, what happened to the dogcondoms.com post?

It was a JOKE, guys.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I put it up, but had a dream last night I was kicked off of RTF, so I deleted it myself. I did think it was funny, but did not want to go "Over the Edge" 

BUT WHEN I SAW THE MEAT FLAVORED variety?? WOW!! My dog would go nuts!!


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## LokiMeister (Jan 15, 2010)

If you got kicked off because of that, lots of people would be kicked off for saying things on this website.


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