# Thoughts on Waterdog by Robert Wolters



## Pher (Dec 11, 2012)

New to form here,

site caught my eye and felt like joining because of good informative people, that could help me along my journey of training my first retriever.

I just picked up a yellow pup, female, 2 weeks ago.
She's now 11 weeks old and i've started working with her and she's doing great already.
Faigh(dawg) picked up on the whistle commands very quickly and shows good signs of drive.

Now I understand that Wolters moves at an "accelerated" pace, and it's what both my uncle and grandfather use.
Just curious what the community's thoughts were on this training path or if the Hillman, mentioned often in threads, is the way to go.


Thanks,
Chris


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Popcorn Time


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## Jason Ottinger (Jan 17, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! I think Bill Hillman's stuff is a better alternative - just my personal preference.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Welcome to the Forum Chris. It depends on what you want. I would rather you read Wolters than nothing at all. As a matter of fact I trained a decent hunting dog using Wolters about 30 yrs ago. Things have come a long way and better methods exist now. Patented Forum response is join a training group where you can get a mentor to help you and choose a recent program to follow, several great programs are supporters of this site. Good luck


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Likewise, I used Waterdog and Game dog to train a great MBL to be a fine retriever and family pet. That was 18 years ago.

Like everyting else, training has evolved, and I think you will be cheating yourself and the pup if you don't read as much as you can.

I am assuming you are only looking for a personal companion and hunting partner/retriever.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

30 years ago, had there been internet chat forums, one might have been discussing the merits of Wolters, DL Walters, JL Free,and Tom Quinn, only own two of those four and more for sentimental reasons....


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> 30 years ago, had there been internet chat forums, one might have been discussing the merits of Wolters, DL Walters, JL Free,and Tom Quinn, only own two of those four and more for sentimental reasons....


LOL got all four Bon but I must say I did learn from them. Makes me ponder what is to come 30 years from now but I guess that is a topic for another thread.

Telepathy perhaps regards,


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Pher said:


> New to form here,
> 
> site caught my eye and felt like joining because of good informative people, that could help me along my journey of training my first retriever.
> 
> ...


....you mean Richard Wolters, right?


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

You're going to get a run-around here about Wolters' very out-dated materials. They're kind-of a joke now. I started a dog on his "Game Dog" back in 1983. They're OK for a hunting dog, but there's a lot that's MUCH better now. Mertens Sound beginnings, Hillman's puppu video, whatever. But I recommend Lardy's Total Retriever Training 2nd ed.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

duk4me said:


> LOL got all four Bon but I must say I did learn from them. Makes me ponder what is to come 30 years from now but I guess that is a topic for another thread.
> 
> Telepathy perhaps regards,


I learned from them too, read JL Free cover to cover twice,then tossed it...was given a DL Walters book and always liked it because DL was always nice to us...he was one of the first guys to come and congratulate Clint when he won his first Open in Colorado with a 24 month old dog, always thought that was darm classy...Tom Quinn is an old family friend of Clint's and would always take the time and chat with me, but sometimes his artistic free spirit thoughts were a little out there, but he really knew his dog stuff, a real good eye for dog talent, and a VERY good trainer, and an even better artist


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Tom Quinn is an old family friend of Clint's and would always take the time and chat with me, but sometimes his artistic free spirit thoughts were a little out there, but he really knew his dog stuff, a real good eye for dog talent, and a VERY good trainer, and an even better artist


Perhaps Renassiance Man is an over statement for Tom, but he is an intelligent astute observer of dogs, an exceptional trainer, and an even more exceptional artist. The few of us left who knew him miss his participation. I was the fortunate recipient of a print he produced of Desert Quail which I received as a gift many years ago, it is a treasured possession.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

EdA said:


> Perhaps *Renassiance Man is an over statement for Tom*, but he is an intelligent astute observer of dogs, an exceptional trainer, and an even more exceptional artist. The few of us left who knew him miss his participation. I was the fortunate recipient of a print he produced of Desert Quail which I received as a gift many years ago, it is a treasured possession.



thats the term I was searching for...


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Bon, I would add Bill Tarrant's "Hey Pup, Fetch It Up" to the list. I've had all the above books, enjoyed reading them, used some of the thoughts and discarded others-- I'm neither a good trainer nor a good handler, just a Labrador (Chocolate proforable) lover of long standing. I knew Mr. Wolters well enough that he asked that I call him Dick, as he said his friends did. He was a good writer, borrowing some ideas when experience did not meet his needs. He had a good since of humor and when he died, he was in an ultralight aircraft when I believe he had a heart attack. He would probably would have writen a book on flying ultra lights. (He was an accomplished sail plane pilot ((glider)). I got to know him because he liked Cleo.

Read everything you can about the training of dog, the way they think and be patient with them. They have been patient with me for over thirty years and I love them for it. Above all, HAVE FUN, Bill


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## Pher (Dec 11, 2012)

Sorry, yes i ment Richards.

Thank you for the information. You all bring up the good point of the book being aged. The main reason i asked was because it's the only method that i was familiar with being as how it's what family uses.

And yes the she's going to be a personal companion and hunting partner/retriever. Not interested in the field competitions and what not. Not that I dont have massive respect for what you and your partners do, I think it's amazing, just not what i have in mind for my own retriever.

Plan on checking out those Hillmann DVD's this weekend for sure.

Chris.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Welcome to the Forum Chris. It depends on what you want. I would rather you read Wolters than nothing at all. As a matter of fact I trained a decent hunting dog using Wolters about 30 yrs ago. Things have come a long way and better methods exist now. Patented Forum response is join a training group where you can get a mentor to help you and choose a recent program to follow, several great programs are supporters of this site. Good luck


To me this is a perfect response. Too many people are quick to make fun of Richard Wolters when his book actually did work for many average hunters in making a serviceble retriever for them to hunt with. It just didn't work with every dog and wasn't meant by Wolters to be taken literally. I trained my first Golden with the book back in 1979 and it worked perfect for what I needed. Twelve years later I moved to Montana and bought another Golden, a male this time. I bought Wolters' updated Game Dog and started with my pup on day 49. By day 66 I was about ten days behind and very frustrated to the point that my wife, who I was driving crazy, made me look up Wolters number in New York and give him a call. He was actually very nice, told me I was taking his book too literally and recommended that as Tim suggested, I hook up with a local amateur training group to take me under their wing.

It took a little searching, but eventually word of mouth led me to Jim Mitchell and the rest is history. Kimo the dog that struggled with Wolters method, flourished in a Carr based program, earned Started and Working Retriever titles in NAHRA, then Junior, Senior and Master titles in AKC. That led to another dog and field trials. A lot of people make fun of Wolters because he was pretty eccentric, probably was a better writer than dog trainer, and as Tim pointed out there are better programs out there now. That said, the OP could well train a nice hunting dog just by using Wolters book, many others have.

John


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I really enjoy cave drawings....

/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> probably was a better writer than dog trainer


No probably about it.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

John Robinson said:


> A lot of people make fun of Wolters because he was pretty eccentric, probably was a better writer than dog trainer, John


Wolters showed up at the MT State trial in Butte in 1965, had a couple of very nice young dogs. Tar, a little over 2 ran test dog for the Derby. He turned a lot of people off with his comments about FT's, then the only game in town. Neither dog's handling capablilities were shown to the audience . 

He drove a Ford with really huge tires on the back end to accommodate his camper, that's what I remember most about him. 



Howard N said:


> No probably about it.


1973 NFC Baird's Centerville Sam was trained by Wolter's books up until he was sold to the Wallace's. Rumor has it that it took Sorenson about a year to undo those training techniques, but they still apparently worked up until the dog was sold & ingrained something for the future .


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## knash3 (May 17, 2012)

I love the Wolters book - I often use it as a beer coaster while watching Lardy's Total Retriever Training segments. 
Seriously, it's a fun read, and I like it just for that if nothing else.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

I started out reading waterdog, and it got me started in the right direction but I will say this if you have the resources get as many books and videos as you can afford and while much of the material is the same some of tips and tricks are different and devise a training plan your comfortable with. In my opinion there is no go to training program.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> To me this is a perfect response. Too many people are quick to make fun of Richard Wolters when his book actually did work for many average hunters in making a serviceble retriever for them to hunt with. It just didn't work with every dog and wasn't meant by Wolters to be taken literally. I trained my first Golden with the book back in 1979 and it worked perfect for what I needed. Twelve years later I moved to Montana and bought another Golden, a male this time. I bought Wolters' updated Game Dog and started with my pup on day 49. By day 66 I was about ten days behind and very frustrated to the point that my wife, who I was driving crazy, made me look up Wolters number in New York and give him a call. He was actually very nice, told me I was taking his book too literally and recommended that as Tim suggested, I hook up with a local amateur training group to take me under their wing.
> 
> 
> It took a little searching, but eventually word of mouth led me to Jim Mitchell and the rest is history. Kimo the dog that struggled with Wolters method, flourished in a Carr based program, earned Started and Working Retriever titles in NAHRA, then Junior, Senior and Master titles in AKC. That led to another dog and field trials. A lot of people make fun of Wolters because he was pretty eccentric, probably was a better writer than dog trainer, and as Tim pointed out there are better programs out there now. That said, the OP could well train a nice hunting dog just by using Wolters book, many others have.
> ...


Thank you John. I view Wolters as a gateway drug. Well at least it got me hooked. As I already posted what will we be saying 30 yrs from now about current methods? Ok I'll be saying nurse oh nurse..........at least I hope.


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## BenHuntin (Jun 7, 2011)

It doesn't really matter what book you read, who's program you use, or what club you belong to if you don't spend time with your dog. The biggest problem I see with Labs in my area is: Duck season is coming up and people decide they need a retriever. They buy a puppy that they can't do anything with because it is too young. A few months later Christmas passes, duck season is over, and spring is coming. The dog is now at a crucial training age yet the new owners have changed their focus on fishing, spring break, crawfish boils, or whatever seasonal hobby is popular. Now the dog runs wild on the yard for 9 months chewing up everything, digging up flower beds, and jumping on every person that comes by to visit. Now there is a 1 year old dog with zero retrieving ability, a ticked off spouse, and a hunter that will still be walking out making his own retrieves!

Dogs are like children, you have to spend time with them if you want them to grow up and be something. When I hear some average joe tell me the family is getting a duck dog I tell them to buy a started dog or buy a puppy and send it to the trainer at 4 months old. Most of the time it is cheaper to buy a started dog. I don't train dogs for anyone but myself. I wonder how many "Great Retrievers" never made a retrieve because they were forgotten in the back yard.

But of course, most people on this site don't have this problem. We all need more time in a day to work with our dogs!


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Pretty easy to speak of Richard Wolters since he has been dead for almost 20 years. Most of his books were wrote in the 60,s. So guess when someone can write and produce videos to compete with him maybe they have the right to open their mouths and say he was an idiot but from where I sit he was a pioneer of his times.

PS the popcorn is cooking


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

thelast2 said:


> Pretty easy to speak of Richard Wolters since he has been dead for almost 20 years. Most of his books were wrote in the 60,s. So guess when someone can write and produce videos to compete with him maybe they have the right to open their mouths and say he was an idiot but from where I sit he was a pioneer of his times.
> 
> PS the popcorn is cooking


I agree. Henry Ford built a bunch of crappy cars compared to the one I drive today.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I said the same thing when he was alive. He was a good BS slinger but he wasn't a dog trainer. If you want a dog to get even to the upper levels of retriever hunt tests you need more than he gives in his books.

Just because he's passed doesn't mean his books are better dog training tomes.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Bill Watson said:


> I knew Mr. Wolters well enough that he asked that I call him Dick, as he said his friends did.


I didn't know him as well as you obviously did but I did know him well enough to know that the reason people called him Dick had nothing to do with his given name. Richard MacDonald trained and ran the only dogs that ever enjoyed any succes at all. 

adjective not a noun regards

Bubba


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

You old regulars here really know how to make a good impression on a newcomer, huh? I don't understand the constant bashing of all the old trainers just because you don't agree with their methods. If those methods got even a few dogs out of the back yard or off the couch... then I would say they were a success. Maybe the next NFC won't come from Wolter's book, but it is better than nothing at all.

More than one way to "skin a cat" regards...


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I can go on record as saying Wolter's GunDog was the only training material, I've ever actually paid money for and brought. I had a 3 month old lab that I wanted to hunt. If I recall it was a pretty humorous down to earth book. That said I think I only actually read 2 chapters, then sort've skimmed everything else. I recall liking his attention of developing the nose, did really well with a young pup and her trailing ability. After that I got drug into a club day and a hunting partners Saturday training group and the dog sort've developed under tutelage, of steps and suggestions of what to work on next. This was much better for me as I have a pretty short attention span, books and programs can't really hold my interest, for to long so many other interesting things .


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I've read most of his books and have pulled a few nuggets of info from them. Compared to the material available now they are very very basic to say the least.


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## DonBrou (Nov 14, 2012)

Books are nice to read and get the basics from. But it's the little bitty stuff that as an amateur you won't notice that'll get you in trouble. Spend the money and hook up with a pro. They'll show you things and give you advice that you won't get in a book because every dog is different and reacts to correction in a different way. The pro will be able to show you how to get your dog motivated when it's needed and calm them down when it's needed. I did the book thing on my first two 15 years ago and they were good hunting dogs. I have two at a pro now and if I had known the difference 15 years ago, I would have had two awesome hunting dogs back then.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Bubba, I also knew Richard McDonald, back in my NAHRA days. Dick was a better writer than a trainer, no doubt, but he had one hell of a bit of good humor. While attending a function at Great Southern Hunting Retriever Club near Covington , Ga, he was wearing his usual attire of tweed jacket, knickers and white silk stockings when someone asked, "Aren't you afraid you will get a little prick in your stockings out here in these briars?" His answer, "I believe I have already done that". He also once said that the reason that he often changed "costumes" as often did was that he peed in his pants alot. At 82 I can understand that too! Bill


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

What whistle commands are you teaching your 11 week old pup?

JS


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## Richard McCullough (Sep 22, 2009)

My older dog was trained using the Water Dog book, still have it. Does it work yes. My younger dog was trained using Smart Works program.Which program do you think I like? Spend the extra money and get a better program.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

Dahl: The 10 Minute Retriever
Milner: Retriever Training: A Back to Basics Approach


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## Tartufa10 (Mar 10, 2011)

I read the Wolters book in "84" when I got my first lab after graduating from Culinary school I can say I really enjoyed it and most of the techniques worked for me . now 28 years later and with some time out of the kitchen I got serious training and competing and agree with most here that there is much more informative and advanced training available now . But the Game dog book really got my fire burning I'm just sorry it took me so long between dogs.Enjoy the book .


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Interesting discussion. My advice to all who read the Wolters books, take some of the basic drills and use them but disregard the criticle stage timeline thing. It's nonsense.

Bert


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, they had more natural ability, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. I have had very good results using Mike Stewart's "Training the Wildrose Way" and advice from Robert Milner.


Merry Christmas Everybody...I'm out!


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## joel druley (Sep 6, 2010)

My thoughts on this topic: Prior to Walters Water Dog..the traditional approach to formal dog training was wait until the dog is 6 months old. Walters said 49 days...now to me that is way too exact science or expectation...49 days 60 days or 70 days..got to be some variance but I think the main thing he contributed that has changed retriever dog training was the idea that you can and need to start the training earlier and that was 40 + years ago. Mertens and Hillman,Lardy and Graham have have have given us some more specialized curriculum and time lines for retriever school in the digital age and today young pups and trainers have this enhanced benefit.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Pas Bon said:


> Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, *they had more natural ability*, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. I have had very good results using Mike Stewart's "Training the Wildrose Way" and advice from Robert Milner.
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas Everybody...I'm out!


I won't argue with you on training, I'm sure you did do well with your dog and the Stewart book, but I have to take issue with your comment about today's labs lacking natural ability compared to dogs of the past. I don't think high power and natural ability conflict. I think most field trail dogs today, Lab, Chessie or Golden, have an abundance of natural marking ability, some are very high powered, some are more medium speed.

John


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

I got water dog in 84 too..great book.The basics are still something look at.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Pas Bon said:


> Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, they had more natural ability, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. !


My experience is quite the opposite although I have never read Mr. Wolter's books my first Labrador born in 1969 was a knucklehead. Subsequent dogs are quicker to learn and more responsive to training and I knew Robert Milner when he was a fledgling field trial pro running dogs in the Qualifying.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Bill Watson said:


> Bon, I would add Bill Tarrant's "Hey Pup, Fetch It Up" to the list. I've had all the above books, enjoyed reading them, used some of the thoughts and discarded others-- I'm neither a good trainer nor a good handler, just a Labrador (Chocolate proforable) lover of long standing. I knew Mr. Wolters well enough that he asked that I call him Dick, as he said his friends did. He was a good writer, borrowing some ideas when experience did not meet his needs. He had a good since of humor and when he died, he was in an ultralight aircraft when I believe he had a heart attack. He would probably would have writen a book on flying ultra lights. (He was an accomplished sail plane pilot ((glider)). I got to know him because he liked Cleo.
> 
> Read everything you can about the training of dog, the way they think and be patient with them. They have been patient with me for over thirty years and I love them for it. Above all, HAVE FUN, Bill


What a wonderful post!


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Pas Bon said:


> Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, they had more natural ability, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. ...


Like EdA, my experience is the opposite. My first Lab in 1983 (trained with Wolters' Game Dog and Water Dog) was much harder to train than most of my later ones (from field trial lines). She was sweet, but made very slow progress. My most "high powered" one (rest her soul) also had the most natural bird-finding ability. The biggest thing that's changed, though, is I've learned a lot about training. The books of Wolters, Quinn (I've been tempted to teach finger signals, but haven't), Ann and D.L. Walters, helped a little, as did a local pro, but the ideas most clearly expressed in Lardy's 2nd ed videos helped the most. (I imagine training with Judy for 20 years would have been a better education... Ed had a better teacher.) 

I'm not interested in field trials, either (and have nothing against those who are), so stuff beyond "Transition" isn't all that helpful to me.

Maybe I should add that the latest fad breedings aren't a cure-all, either, and breeding for a more "complete" dog would be nice... One of the nicest dogs's I've know had a local non-famous, non-FT pedigree. His owner summed up fad breeding this way, "You wouldn't let someone do brain surgery on you just because his parents were neurosurgeons, would you?"

Milner and Stewart's stuff might work fine, too. I haven't tried their approach.

Ultimately, the trainer has to "read" the dog. Some folks is better at that than others...


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Pas Bon said:


> Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, they had more natural ability, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. I have had very good results using Mike Stewart's "Training the Wildrose Way" and advice from Robert Milner.
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas Everybody...I'm out!


 i take it you never saw super powder run?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

EdA said:


> My experience is quite the opposite although I have never read Mr. Wolter's books my first Labrador born in 1969 was a knucklehead. Subsequent dogs are quicker to learn and more responsive to training and I knew Robert Milner when he was a fledgling field trial pro running dogs in the Qualifying.


That is my experience as well. Even when training with D.L. Walters, a fairly high percentage of his better all-age dogs at that time (mid 1970's) were tougher, and less compliant than subsequent generations. Today's dogs are generally brighter and more sensitive. 

Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bubba said:


> I didn't know him as well as you obviously did but I did know him well enough to know that the reason people called him Dick had nothing to do with his given name. Richard MacDonald trained and ran the only dogs that ever enjoyed any succes at all.
> 
> adjective not a noun regards
> 
> Bubba


Charlie Jurney is the only pro that I personally recall doing work with Mr. Wolters' dogs. By the time I got in the game, Richard had his "RAW's TARTU" and then he got a puppy "Raw's Southland Duck Soup". 

Duck was Mr. Wolters' final lab, and as far as I know, Charlie Jurney did almost all the training with "Duck". 

It was watching Mr. Wolters handle Duck in a NAHRA test that I learned first hand, the caution one must use in saying the dog's callname. Duck had been trained to release for marks on his callname - "Duck". Mr. Wolters was handling Duck in a Senior NAHRA test and they were honoring. Duck had crept a bit, and Mr. Wolters tried to quietly control him. He was starting to say "Duck, here". He only got the first word out - and Duck broke. 

I probably still have the issue of the NAHRA News article where Mr. Wolters wrote a column called "Wolters Speaks". In that, not long before his death, he wrote about the virtues of e-collar training, collar conditioning, and force fetch. Although 'til the day he died, he would openly tell folks that he did not "Force Fetch" his dogs. In reality though, his final dog Duck, absolutely was force fetched and collar conditioned by Charlie Jurney. 

By the time Mr. Wolters' life was passing, I do believe he was beginning to understand that there may be other ways to train that could give a bit more effectiveness than the sketchy methods he outlined in his books.

I have fond memories of running a blind with one of my dogs when Mr. Wolters was judging. It happened to be at the Stewart WMA in NY near the Airforce base, not far from Newburgh, NY. It was during "Desert Storm" and there were C5A cargo planes lifting off with regularity. I remember seeing Mr. Wolters jot the phrase "plane noise" on his notebook as my dog had a whistle refusal on a blind as one of those liftoffs was taking place. 

It was just an mid-level blind, what NAHRA calls an "Intermediate" and I recall Mr. Wolters said we could stand anywhere we liked to launch our dogs. I remember it was a really sloppy marshy shore and my dog was not that good on water entry and was a big, big water cheater. I went back to my truck, put on chest waders, and walked out about chest deep, putting my dog on a hunk of floating mat, and kicked him off from there. I remember Mr. Wolters smiling and saying it was wise to take advantage of the leeway the judges give. 

I found Mr. Wolters from that perspective to be a reasonable guy, who was focused on the intent of the hunt test programs at that point in time. He realized that like Omar Driskill used to say, the hunt tests were for the "muddy guys in camo".

It was at that same test that he phoned home to talk to his wife Olive, and she reported that his puppy "Duck" had just swam for the first time. Jack Scanlon was Mr. Wolters' co-judge that day. 

One thing that has always amazed me is the "staying power" of Mr. Wolters' books. Just this week I was doing some Xmas shopping at a Cabela's and looked through the dog supplies. Sure enough, Mr. Wolters' books were there on the book rack. The only modern info that I recall seeing there was Chris Akin's material. I do think it is impressive that Mr. Wolters books continue to be prominently displayed at major retailers' locations for the training supplies.

I am sure that some of the things I do today with puppies, are things I picked up from Mr. Wolters' stuff. After a while, we pickup bits and pieces from all around and it just kind of becomes engrained in what we do. I would not say that his books are junk. I would say, that for anyone that wants an intermediate or advanced retriever that will handle and not cheat the bank, his material is of limited value. 

Guys like Mike Lardy have taken those techniques that used to be part of the "inside society" who exchanged Rex Carr notes and photocopied them, and helped evolve them into something a bit more "novice-friendly", Shuffle-proofing, and available to the average guy.

Like many in today's dog games, Mr. Wolters had an ego. Mr. Wolters was a competitive spirit. Mr. Wolters was human....just as we all are.

While I don't bother opening his books to train at all today, I do believe Mr. Wolters helped make a mark on our sport in many ways. 

Chris


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Enjoyed that, Mr. Atkinson - thanks for sharing.

MG


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Enjoyed that, Mr. Atkinson - thanks for sharing.
> 
> MG


MG, Thank you. One day you and I need to cross paths live. I believe we'd have some cool conversation.

I had one more Wolters memory that I'd like to write about. It just popped into my mind and I've got the time to type.

My lab when I was in my early 20's was named "Champ". The RTF banner in the top left shows his good side. A professional photographer took many shots of us to get one that looked that good! 

In Mr. Wolters later years, he did some part time work at the Manhattan Orvis shop, and Randy Carlson (now an exec at Lion Country Supply) was the store manager back then. I had befriended Randy through NAHRA and I got an invite to participate in the retriever demos done by MR. Wolters at an Okemo Mountain Resort event. It was held in conjunction with the World Sporting Clays championship.

Mr. Wolters was quite the showman, wearing his sportcoat and knickers with a bowtie. He talked up quite the public yarn as we demonstrated some retriever basics. He also spent lots of time autographing copies of his book - those folks brought from home to have him sign - and those that folks bought there at the show. 

"Show Spot the pictures, you read the words, then both believe" ...was a common autograph he'd inscribe in the books.

We had a simple water retrieve around an oval pond. Randy Carlson and Reva would run the marks beautifully. Vito and Carrie (Angelone) but before Carrie married Vito, were there with a litter of puppies and of course all of Vito's dogs ran great. It was at that very event that Vito told me of the Kappes-Curtis and/or Carr-curtis tapes that were circulating around and how one could use this "new program" to get dogs to handle great. I finally learned what he was referencing when I chose to open my mind a bit and truly study Lardy's materials.

Champ, my big, clunky yellow lab was of common backyard breeding. He had one FC a few brackets back. FC Deltone Buck, I believe was the distant field champion on his pedigree. Poor Champ was hacked and mishandled by myself through lots of trial and error. I will never, ever forget coming to the line with great big "Champ" to run a water mark. Just as I was signalling for the mark, Mr. Wolters said into the microphone "By land or by sea?!!!" 

Champ ran the bank, he got the mark, he never got a foot wet. I remember vowing that day to learn to train better and to get a better-bred dog later in my life.

Somewhere in this thread I read someone writing something about today's labs being of less natural ability than labs years ago. I would agree that there are many more pet labs out of questionable stock with questionable natural ability. This is just due to the sheer popularity of the breed. I would not agree that today's FC/AFC breedings in North America are producing animals of lesser "natural ability". 

What's wonderful about today's retriever games around the world is that we have some very diverse games and desired qualities. The Brit games require very level-headed, even-keeled, calm, and rock-steady dogs that perform well under the excitement of many gunshots and chaotic settings. The USA trials require dogs with much more drive, liniing ability and pinpoint marking capabillity among tricky setups with multiple factors. 

Simple logic would follow that if you take the top performers in either type game, and breed them to other top performers, after several generations, you're probably likely to produce puppies who are more likely to possess those qualities. That's selective breeding. 

Those of us who think blondes are the most beautiful would probably not be likely to pick a brunette if we were judging a beauty pageant. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I like to think of my drives through Amish country when I think of retriever breedings. I frequently see two distinctly different types of horses in the Amish lots. There are gigantic horses, I'm not sure what they are technically called, but I call them "Draft Horses". There are also other style horses. They are smaller, leaner, faster looking horses. They both serve 2 different purposes - one pulls heavy stuff and gets major pulling done. The other is nimble and quick and is the horsepower behind the Amish buggies. The Amish don't argue about which is a better horse. Neither is truly better. One is better at some, and the other is better at a different set of performance skills.

Same with labradors - Brit versus North American Field. 

Years ago when I ran NAHRA exclusively, I was a victim of breathing too much NAHRA air. When you breathe your own air too much, you get a closed mind. I used to think it was best and desireable that dogs running NAHRA be out of MHR x MHR breedings and that FC or MH was a bad thing. That's stupid logic!

I used to find it hypocritical that Jack Jagoda, back when he was with Diana at Southland, listed all these Field Trial titles in his breedings and litters. It used to bum me out that he did not more deliberately advertise NAHRA titled dogs as the breeding stock and not showcase the field titles. Decades later, I think I get it.

If you're happy with your dog, that's what matters. If you're happy with your training and results, that's what matters. It is totally possible that your tastes and needs will evolve over time. They may even come full-circle.

Chris


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Here is a photo of me about 25+ years ago getting a ribbon from Richard Wolters. The ribbon was to my Tar and it was the first "gold" band awarded in NAHRA.

Chris those were good posts about RW and his contributions. Back in 1985-86 he was a big deal in my neck of the woods. Like many people I have outgrown his work. I don't know why the photo didn't scan in color because they did actually have color back in those days.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Wayne,

Thanks so much for posting that delicious snap of RW! 

I don't have much to add to the discussion save that I too find his written works rather charming period pieces. You could still put together a decent retriever with his stuff, but time has moved on and better things are available. I put RW in the same bracket as his (approximate) UK equivalent Peter Moxon. I met PM several times and a nicer bloke never pulled on boots; he was a very fine writer, a great judge of a bottle of Burgundy, and an even greater judge of a well turned female ankle. Dog trainer? ... oh well. 

I think my New Year resolution will be the furtherance and promotion of a more formal approach amongst you guys in the dress dept. Breeks, tweeds, sock flashes, the lot. 

One for the lads ....







and another for the lassies









Eug


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> think my New Year resolution will be the furtherance and promotion of a more formal approach amongst you guys in the dress dept. Breeks, tweeds, sock flashes, the lot.


Eug, to paraphrase Mae West as channeled by your countess of country sport above, "Is that one of those ridiculously long American field trial guns in your pocket - 










or are you just glad to see me?"

MG


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Wayne,
> 
> Thanks so much for posting that delicious snap of RW!
> 
> ...





I always was quite fond of Lassie


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

What? Timmy's in the well?


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Eug,

Could you explain the difference between knickers and breeks? (With photos??) ;-)


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Pas Bon said:


> Back when that book came out labs were easier to train, they had more natural ability, today much of that has been bred out of them in exchange for high powered greyhound like traits. I have had very good results using Mike Stewart's "Training the Wildrose Way" and advice from Robert Milner.
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas Everybody...I'm out!


This statement is simply absurd.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Keith* posted


> Could you explain the difference between knickers and breeks? (With photos??)


You are a very wicked man ;-). But, nothing loathe and always up for a challenge I offer the following pic of a charming young lady wearing tweed breeks and shooting jacket. Unless she's a vey generous and particularly friendly sort, her knickers will remain a matter of speculation!










Eug


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *Keith* posted
> 
> You are a very wicked man ;-). But, nothing loathe and always up for a challenge I offer the following pic of a charming young lady wearing tweed breeks and shooting jacket. Unless she's a vey generous and particularly friendly sort, her knickers will remain a matter of speculation!
> 
> ...


Very funny, Colonel Blimp, 1800's usage of the term "knickers". The girl is cute.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Col. B., When I was in grammer school (Grades 1 thru 8) , in the Fall and Winter, I often wore trousers that ended at my knee with elastic. They were referred to as knickers, and were usually cordaroy material. When I walked rapidly they made a sound and I was often called "whistle britches". We also have the term knickers for under pants, but it is often referred to as " getting into them". Just a different terminology depending on which side of the pond you are on. Mr. Wolters' were the type that ended at his knee and he wore them on the outside! Lord only knows what he had on underneath! He enjoyed being "different". 

When judging HRC test I could tell which handlers were Wolters trainees, they sent their dogs on a double tweet, tweet, and would often use the same sound to change direction. I have had great pleasure over the years with the people and their dogs that I have met and it has been with great regret that I can no longer physcally have the ability to run my dog and to judge others running theirs. I truly miss the association with those that have so much inteligence, both human and particularly dogs. It is a great bunch we have over here, i hope you have the same on your side. God Save The Queen, Bill


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I have a couple of Wolters books. I trained a few dogs based on them and they were very good hunting dogs. In hindsight there were better books and training methods even then and I would not recommend Wolters to anyone today. 
I train with someone that knew Wolters. He described him as "really weird" and unable to train a dog to do anything.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I have a couple of Wolters books. I trained a few dogs based on them and they were very good hunting dogs. In hindsight there were better books and training methods even then and I would not recommend Wolters to anyone today.
> I train with someone that knew Wolters. He described him as "really weird" and unable to train a dog to do anything.


This discussion is from 2012. I'm not sure why you've chosen to post this.

I knew Dick Wolters personally. I spent some time with him. He was a character. He made some lasting contributions to the retriever world. He was not perfect. None of us are.

Chris


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Chris Atkinson said:


> He made some lasting contributions to the retriever world. He was not perfect. None of us are. Chris


I absolutely agree


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## P T Brown (Apr 11, 2017)

Sorry !! I can't pass on this old post. I was very active in the FT game in the 70's and early 80's. I was fortunate to to have a pretty fair dog, QAA2 by today's nomenclature. The only book I ever read on dog training at the time was Water Dog. My training reflected that. Other than the whistle releases everything in the book is still of value. I know nothing about Wolters' personality and /or faults. The book was clearly the best of it's time. It revolutionized many aspects of retriever training. In my opinion Richard Wolters wrote the Bible on retriever training. There is a copy on an end table not 10 feet from me as i write this. I still reference it.


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## Bluegoose (Jul 12, 2018)

BonMallari said:


> I learned from them too, read JL Free cover to cover twice,then tossed it...was given a DL Walters book and always liked it because DL was always nice to us...he was one of the first guys to come and congratulate Clint when he won his first Open in Colorado with a 24 month old dog, always thought that was darm classy...Tom Quinn is an old family friend of Clint's and would always take the time and chat with me, but sometimes his artistic free spirit thoughts were a little out there, but he really knew his dog stuff, a real good eye for dog talent, and a VERY good trainer, and an even better artist



Bon,
DL was a great trainer and a credit to the sport. Many, many years ago, I went to one of his clinics and there was a young kid with a totally out of control chessie. The problem, the youngster stated was the dog wouldn’t hold a bird. DL took the lead from the boy and there rose a cloud of dust. The youngster and his dad were anxious and started to step in, probably in fear of DL’s safety, DL told them calmly and politely to step back. I swear that in 10 minutes he not only got the wild dog to hold but had him fetching from the ground. All of us were speechless.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This discussion is from 2012. I'm not sure why you've chosen to post this.
> 
> I knew Dick Wolters personally. I spent some time with him. He was a character. He made some lasting contributions to the retriever world. He was not perfect. None of us are.
> 
> Chris


the 

He was definitely a lot of fun to be around. By the time I came to know him he was quite old, but still mentally sharp as a tack. 

I remember when his death was announced at a NAHRA test hosted by the Navesink River Club. There were no dry eyes to be found that day.

He may not have been a great dog trainer, but he knew what a great hunting dog was. He was one of 3 people without which there would probably not be Hunt Tests. That was his real legacy, in my opinion.-Paul


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

1985 I am 15 years old and my Dad agrees to let me acquire my first "bird dog". Me and Dad had a contract and everything about responsibilities and all that. I think she cost 200 bucks which for me was all the paper route money I could scramble. I went in whole hog with the training and also 0 money I had left after the puppy purchase. Wolters Water Dog book was at the library and I followed it pretty dang close.. I ended up with a teenager trained dog that had some OB, ran like crazy on a pheasant trail ( you better be able to run to be in range when the bird flushed) , But the girls at the beach loved that little yellow lab when I said sit and she sat - they sat with me Thank you Mr. Wolters for your book . Brought back some memories with this old post...


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I have a couple of Wolters books. I trained a few dogs based on them and they were very good hunting dogs. In hindsight there were better books and training methods even then and I would not recommend Wolters to anyone today.
> I train with someone that knew Wolters. He described him as "really weird" and unable to train a dog to do anything.


WOW, ok I guess. This man was pretty close to the beginning of the game. The game has had and will have more in the future, people that are a bit Eccentric, who cares. The game has evolved like everything does. At the time in the 70's he was pretty much on top of the game with his methods.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

20 years ago when I knew everything, I used to trash Richard Wolters. 

How do many of the self acknowledged retriever expert keyboard cowboys differ in this day and age from RW? As Chris Atkinson noted, RW made a lasting impact on this sport with his advocacy of Hunt tests and writing a simple book by which many people could have a (relatively) well trained pooch. Quite a legacy, don't you think?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Another very sensitive subject I guess. 
I started training retrievers about 1980. When Wolters first wrote Gun Dog and then Water Dog in the early 60's they were in fact revolutionary. His books nudged the dog training world in a direction it needed to go. His books are still worth reading, well written and give a great perspective on how far training methods have advanced. As training guides they are a terrible choice considering all the other options available.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I trained my first dog into a fine all around hunting dog who could handle with Water Dog. I had never see a hunt test or field trial, it was 1980, I had absolutely no reference other than that book. Looking back it’s actually a kind of miracle, a lot was due to the fact that I had the exact perfect dog for a rank beginner, she was very eager to please me, yet had incredible drive to retrieve and was a monster water dog.

We are clearly way past Wolters now, but to me it’s irrelevant at this date whether or not that he could actually train a dog, the point is he got a lot of us started in creating a functional hunting retriever.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> We are clearly way past Wolters now, but to me it’s irrelevant at this date whether or not that he could actually train a dog, the point is he got a lot of us started in creating a functional hunting retriever.


There it is.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I knew Richard a little and he would be thrilled that he was still causing controversy. He was good at it; and as Chris noted, used it to help get HTs started in the 80s. 

He wouldn't be thrilled being called "Robert" ...


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