# your thoughts on Silver



## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

my girlfriend has been in contact today with a breeder in Columbus junction Iowa. Babcock's silver lads. One has anyone ever heard of this person? And what is your opinion on that color.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

You really don't want to know.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

They are great just like labradoodles! Designer breed being sold as pure breds unfortunately.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Go to Search on the toolbar above.

Click "Advanced Search"

In Keywords type "silver" and select "Search Titles Only"

I got 48 threads.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

Ahooge said:


> my girlfriend has been in contact today with a breeder in Columbus junction Iowa. Babcock's silver lads. One has anyone ever heard of this person? And what is your opinion on that color.


you gf might go silver and not come back hahahalololol


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## brsutton86 (Apr 19, 2013)

Lots of threads on silvers on several forums. Wont take you long to figure out the analysis.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

I just called the guy and it sounds like a joke but at least he did have health clearances lol


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Haha are you serious huntinlabs? I know what my thought are on the silver I just wanted the retriever communities thought on them. Sounds like we are on the same page


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Ill send you a pm lol


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

This could be one of those threads* condescending tone*


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## Willie Alderson (Jan 26, 2011)

If the silver can seat on a duck I'll take two!!


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

I like it for formal dinners and 25th anniversaries


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

It's cheaper to buy than gold.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

More popular among the class that can afford the hired help to polish it, but I hear it's good investment, just check with the Franklin mint.


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

http://www.notosilverlabradors.com


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

My thoughts...well without getting too wound up, they are not a lab, I discourage anyone from buying one and supporting the money grabbing B.S. spewing breeders of them. And I refuse to train them. May not be the smartest outlook from a business standpoint but I hate to see a great breed be brought down in the name of profit.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

A silver took "hi point "in puppy stakes in our club's picnic trials this past year. It was a nice dog. 


Pete


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

They should start their own breed and stop polluting the Labrador retriever gene pool


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Bridget Bodine said:


> They should start their own breed and stop polluting the Labrador retriever gene pool


Bridget, I've not paid too much attention to the "Silver Lab" trend.

But, are they actually being AKC registered???? 

I know that the AKC doesn't recognize Silver. Are they registering as chocolate and selling as silver??? 

Thanks, Randy


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

They are registering silvers as Chocolate and charcoals as Black. AKC doesn't care as long as the registration fees are paid.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Thank you everyone for their comments and concerns. I plan o. Investing in tableware because I find it awefull pretty. As for the lad I have continued my research and can across this. http://www.healthgene.com/canine-dna-testing/color-testing/?tid=4&btid=82. Thought?


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

Ahooge said:


> Thank you everyone for their comments and concerns. I plan o. Investing in tableware because I find it awefull pretty. As for the lad I have continued my research and can across this. http://www.healthgene.com/canine-dna-testing/color-testing/?tid=4&btid=82. Thought?


That's a decent snapshot assessment of genetics of diluted genes in labradors. Truth be told, dilute genes are incredibly complicated. It's been hashed out on RTF many times. There is still an on-going debate about whether or not "silver" and "charcoal" colors are actually mixed with weimaraner or just diluted genes. Could be either. The debate rages on.

Personally, this question just boils down to the one and only question that should start a search for a pup: "What do you want in a dog?" Do you want a designer pet that looks "unique?" Great. Go with silver, charcoal or any other color that makes you (by "you" I mean "your girl") happy. Do want performance? Look for dogs being bred with the specific traits you want (drive, size, point, etc.). 

If you are honest and specific in exactly what you want in a dog and you have money to spend... it's out there. Go find the dog you want and enjoy the ride.


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

For what it's worth, the LRC has taken a position on silver labs and the dilute gene...

"It is the opinion of the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., the AKC parent club for the breed, that a _silver_ Labrador is not a purebred Labrador retriever. The pet owning public is being duped into believing that animals with this dilute coat color are desirable, purebred and rare and, therefore, warrant special notoriety or a premium purchase price..." 

http://thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors


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## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

Labs come in three colors yellow, black and chocolate. Back in the day we didn't have fancy names we just called them Mutts.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Rnd said:


> Bridget, I've not paid too much attention to the "Silver Lab" trend.
> 
> But, are they actually being AKC registered????
> 
> ...


The AKC is simply the registry; it's the parent club (LRC) that decides the standard and what is acceptable or not. So, yes these dogs are being registered as chocolates even though some of them are genetically diluted blacks.
As to whether the gene was introduced by cross breeding Labs with Weims and falsifying registration papers, as many think, or by discovering a hidden dilution gene in one or two Labs, there's probably no way to prove it but given the plethora of them and the fact that the first kennel to market them had both breeds, the first scenario is more likely.
I have posted this before on other silver threads but for the OP it's worth repeating so you can tell your girlfriend. My sister got one about 3 years ago. I've had and bred CBRs for over 30 years, and she knows I'd be available for help but knew my position on them so found a breeder on the internet and drove 6 hrs. to get her puppy. She was told it had "papers" but she never got them, nor was she allowed to see either parent; in fact she wasn't even allowed inside the house. The puppy was sick, rheumy eyed and coughing when she picked him up, but of course she felt sorry for him and she'd already paid for him (to date she's never disclosed what she paid, but I suspect around $1500). She got him over his early poor care but by 6 mos. he started having a series of expensive auto immune problems and by 10 mos. he was so lame he'd cry going up and down stairs. He is severely dysplastic. He's now 3 and my 14.5 yr old Chesapeake can outrun him because he's so crippled/lame. He is a genetic train wreck. Sadly, he is also typical of what these shysters are foisting on the gullible public. Oh and when she tried to contact the breeder their # was disconnected and website was down, but she did find a whole slew of others who'd gotten genetic train wreck puppies from them.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

And I lost my response while I was looking at other stuff. Crap. But it can down to this. KS good point. Rocky I had seen that also and 25-ott. All of our dogs were at some point mutts check this out. It was very interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jFGNQScRNY


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Ahooge said:


> And I lost my response while I was looking at other stuff. Crap. But it can down to this. KS good point. Rocky I had seen that also and 25-ott. All of our dogs were at some point mutts check this out. It was very interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jFGNQScRNY


They may have been mutts at some point, but the entire point of having a breed registry and closed book is to protect that purebred that took years and time to develop. People who bastardize a breed by adding in what is completely against the breed club's stance, such as silver and charcoal for Labs, are perpetuating a scam and basically saying, "screw you" to that breed. The silvers are registered as chocolate, the charcoals as black, it is a scam, period. We have debated silvers/dilutes ad nauseum on this forum, for years. They aren't going away, and too many have gotten their hands on good Labs and bred them into the silver crap to "improve" it, but we sure as heck don't have to welcome them with open arms either. I hope there comes a time when AKC requires Labs to be tested and have no dilute factor in order to be registered as Labs, but, that's just a pipedream. AKC isn't going to back up now. People want silvers, fine, breed silvers, breed whatever you want, but do right by the dogs, healthwise at least, and don't register them as Labs. They are not purebreds.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear about your sisters genetic train wreck. Hope all turns out OK. My plans are to find a pup that has good genes behind them and in one of the standered colors. Probably black. The color I grew up with when I was young. But my problem is that a lot of the labs out there are very close to standered size. Traditional standers sizes according to akc. I'm trying to find the large side of the breed. If anyone has information that can help me out that would be wonderful too. Doesn't have to be black but preferred


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

Ahooge said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your sisters genetic train wreck. Hope all turns out OK. My plans are to find a pup that has good genes behind them and in one of the standered colors. Probably black. The color I grew up with when I was young. But my problem is that a lot of the labs out there are very close to standered size. Traditional standers sizes according to akc. I'm trying to find the large side of the breed. If anyone has information that can help me out that would be wonderful too. Doesn't have to be black but preferred


There you go... something to work with - you like 'em big, black and healthy. I'm going to guess male? Next questions are what is your budget and how far are you willing to travel or pay shipping?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Define large, please.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Sharon Potter said:


> Define large, please.


Big Black & Beautiful:


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

MyMy definition of a large Lab is 95+ lbs. And not just weight. Height to go with it. I have seen a lot of large labs 95+ the only problem is that it was in the same bloodline and those dogs are all gone now.

I'm not trying to be unrealistic I just know what I want.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ahooge said:


> MyMy definition of a large Lab is 95+ lbs. And not just weight. Height to go with it. I have seen a lot of large labs 95+ the only problem is that it was in the same bloodline and those dogs are all gone now.
> 
> I'm not trying to be unrealistic I just know what I want.



If you know what you want, why ask other people for their opinions? It is clear that you have your mind set.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

I wanted the opinion on the silver color because I didn't want to have 1 come up that was the proper size and end up jumping into a color that it's frowned upon


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

My thoughts on Silver. Every Lab person should have one. I wish the only labs running field trials were silver instead of those bad ass blk dogs. Maybe then I would have a chance of finishing an open or amat with my chessie Larry.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Ahooge said:


> I wanted the opinion on the silver color because I didn't want to have 1 come up that was the proper size and end up jumping into a color that it's frowned upon


I am sorry but a 95+ lb. huge lab is no more a lab then a silver is. Breeders should not be knowingly doing either. The breed standard is called a standard for a reason. A lab is a lab. Don't make it something it isn't coat color, size, or otherwise. 

If you like silver and big is your thing then I think a chessie is much in line with your preferences.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Rnd said:


> Bridget, I've not paid too much attention to the "Silver Lab" trend.
> 
> But, are they actually being AKC registered????
> 
> ...


EXACTLY what they are doing, and there are now dilute blacks being sold as "charcoal" and dilute yellows as "chapagne". Alot of show breeders are DNA testing for dilute and advertising dilute free, and many are asking that your bitch or dog be tested dilute free before breeding....field people might want to start doing the same with unknown pedigrees


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Ahooge said:


> MyMy definition of a large Lab is 95+ lbs. And not just weight. Height to go with it. I have seen a lot of large labs 95+ the only problem is that it was in the same bloodline and those dogs are all gone now.
> 
> I'm not trying to be unrealistic I just know what I want.


How big is GRHRCH Big Black Dude II MH? I believe he is a bit bigger than average. Anyone know offhand?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Ok let's put aside intentionally breeding a disqualifying color of "Labrador" that can all trace their lineage to one kennel in the 60's that bred a bunch of "types" of dogs, including wiems; Let's just pull up any pedigree of any silver Labrador, and look back a few generations; should be pretty easy to see that "tree don't fork"; Mothers, Brothers, Sister Cousin; all bred back and forth to each other to produce a "special" color. Inbreeding at it's finest; Sure you get the color but your also get, the accumulation of a bunch of genetic recessives. Let's see what else is genetically recessive? EIC, CNM, PRA, those's that we have test for, a bunch of other conditions that are worst (lethal white, blindness, hip disorders, auto immune diseases). A tree that doesn't fork, is a dead end...Now que the Banjo music


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

Bridget Bodine said:


> EXACTLY what they are doing, and there are now dilute blacks being sold as "charcoal" and dilute yellows as "chapagne". Alot of show breeders are DNA testing for dilute and advertising dilute free, and many are asking that your bitch or dog be tested dilute free before breeding....field people might want to start doing the same with unknown pedigrees


Thats exactly what my vet (who owns labs) recommended doing. She also recommended submitting the results to OFFA so the results were public.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Dave Are you talking about him. http://www.taylorfarmkennels.com/studs.php?do=show_stud


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

While there are some good Labs out there that are that far outside the breed standard, they weren't bred for size...they were bred for ability,and the size just happened unintentionally. Specifically looking for one that is for sure going to end up 25% larger than acceptable is also going to land you in the same category of breeder that the dilute colors will. If someone is breeding specifically for way oversized dogs, they aren't breeding for the rest of the traits that make up a good Labrador. Even Chessies aren't supposed to be that big, according to their standard. A grossly oversized dog often comes a boatload of issues (pun intended). 

It's like saying "I want to buy a club cab pickup truck, but it has to be the size of a dump truck." If you want a dump truck, just buy a dump truck. There are lots of breeds of dog that are big.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

YepYepYepYep Sharon I understand what your saying. In fact I almost said I understand what comes with the added size is the increased health risks. Unfortunately. Have see it go both ways on labs of that larger nature. Our family lab the my father and I hunted with religiously was (in her prime) 90lbs. Both her parents were standered size. In fact I wouldn't dout that her mom was no bigger then 55lbs soaken wet. But boy was her drive amazing. When she was focused she could acheave great things. And it sure came through to our dog. And her brothers and sisters. I was regularly around that generation most of my growing up years and saw great things out of all of them. Now some were standered size but 2-3 of them ended up big. Ours being one of them. One of the males ended up at 125 ish lbs and solid as a rock. How it happened who knows. Our dog had a litter and 2 of those male ended up at 95 -100. Nothing we expected out of it. It jus happened. I wshmi could have had one of them but it unfortunately the las one I knew of that came from our family dogs blood passes just a few years back. So now the search is on.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

How do you spell

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/trol...the-bridge-oscon-2014-3-638.jpg?cb=1406994518


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi Yo...Silver was a superb horse and saved the Lone Ranger on many a Saturday afternoon


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## Gun Dawg (Dec 18, 2010)

Nice Bon....
Tee Kemosabe


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)




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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKyiXjyVsfw 
;-)


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Dude is a big dog with a lot of talent. He is however, the exception to the rule. He is probably one of the biggest, most talented dogs I have ever judged. His size in the test world is unusual. He also has a very good trainer.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Ahooge said:


> Dave Are you talking about him. http://www.taylorfarmkennels.com/studs.php?do=show_stud


Yes. He's the one.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Perfect now the search changes gears. Thanks for the confirmation Dave.


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

This dog meets your big n black criteria...https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/DogBioPopup.aspx?id=65102


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

I'd love to take a look but unfortunately my tablet does not allow me to login to that site


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is the info that Purpledawg was trying to give you.


*AKC #: SR51846606* Registered Name:*Flyway's Chester B-Gone*Call Name:*Chet*Sire:*FC AFC Tealcreek Patton's Saber*DOB:*09/02/2008*Dam:*FC AFC Flyway's Ruby B. Gonia*Breed:*Labrador Retriever*Current Owner(s):*Karen & Chris Robles*Sex:*M*Breeder:*Don & Helen Graves*Color:*Black*


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

I'll just leave this hear for reference and resource. 

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html

http://labradornet.com/silversecrets.html

http://labradornet.com/silverlabsanalysis.html


There are many other websites out there but these are the ones I thought to be the most informational. Since I am still in search for a another pup I find myself asking if the color ginetics have been checked. Am I wrong to do so? What are your guys feelings on that question?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If you're looking at field bred, titled dogs from quality breeders, you won't have to ask that question. It's not going to be found in good bloodlines. Period.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Ahooge said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your sisters genetic train wreck. Hope all turns out OK. My plans are to find a pup that has good genes behind them and in one of the standered colors. Probably black. The color I grew up with when I was young. But my problem is that a lot of the labs out there are very close to standered size. Traditional standers sizes according to akc. I'm trying to find the large side of the breed. If anyone has information that can help me out that would be wonderful too. Doesn't have to be black but preferred


There is someone on the East Coast who breeds what you are looking for. I have seen his labs. If you want, contact me for more info.


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

moscowitz said:


> My thoughts on Silver. Every Lab person should have one. I wish the only labs running field trials were silver instead of those bad ass blk dogs. Maybe then I would have a chance of finishing an open or amat with my chessie Larry.


Very good Mike


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## Cody89 (Jul 16, 2013)

I dont know what yall think but I own Couple silvers as well as chocolate and black and My silvers are just as smart its in the bloodline. Not to mention mine also have titles. And if anybody really does research you will find that Black was the on original lab. Chocolates and yellow where not recognized by AKC people use to kill the chocolates if born. But over time AKC recognizes the chocolate and yellow and other dilutes as well as everybody else.


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## Css200 (Aug 2, 2012)

Cody89 said:


> I dont know what yall think but I own Couple silvers as well as chocolate and black and My silvers are just as smart its in the bloodline. Not to mention mine also have titles. And if anybody really does research you will find that Black was the on original lab. Chocolates and yellow where not recognized by AKC people use to kill the chocolates if born. But over time AKC recognizes the chocolate and yellow and other dilutes as well as everybody else.


It's not a lab.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Names, titles and pedigrees, please.


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## Cody89 (Jul 16, 2013)

think what you want I got papers and all the testing to prove it. IF you say silver is not a lab that means chocolate and yellows are not either. Do your research and you may learn something.


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## Cody89 (Jul 16, 2013)

Here would be something called research.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Cody89 said:


> think what you want I got papers and all the testing to prove it. IF you say silver is not a lab that means chocolate and yellows are not either. Do your research and you may learn something.


You would be wise to preach to this audience about understanding a breed and concept that you have incorrect. Show me where it has ever been demonstrated that the dilute gene is naturally found in the lab. In fact, it has been demonstrated that the breed lacks this gene. Yellow and chocolate naturally occur as color variations in the breed. People who bred purely for performance produce yellows and on much rarer occasion chocolates. Silver does not naturally occur. It was man and his ideas of making money off rare color variant that introduced the dilute gene likely by crossing a Weimaraner (which naturally expresses the dilute gene). Before you go making claims check your facts or keep sticking your head in the sand. When I see you grab a ribbon of any color in a FT I will admit that maybe silvers are not a lesser version of a lab. So far haven't seen a single one!

So you have genetic testing that compares to that of a lab with no dilution and genetic matches are identical!! Whoa didn't know people spent the money on DNA sequencing. A buccal swap DNA test does not prove lineage or that fact your lab is actually a lab!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Silver (gray) is a dilute. Yellow and chocolate are not. The research has been done, and I'd be happy to provide you with links to it. Conversely, I'd love to see the research you have that backs up any sort of claim otherwise. Please remember when looking up your proof that opinion isn't research.

I keep hearing about all these titles, yet it's rare to see any actual proof. I know of one MH, and another with an HR (and I've judged and passed that particular dog, based on the performance meeting the requirements of the test that day...along with Labs, Goldens, Chessies, Boykins, etc.). One local "breeder" claims that a puppy they bred with a JH ribbon is a field champion, which doesn't exactly lend any credibility.

Got proof? Let's see it.  I've been asking for years,but nobody will take me up on it. Here's your chance.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Cody89 said:


> think what you want I got papers and all the testing to prove it. IF you say silver is not a lab that means chocolate and yellows are not either. Do your research and you may learn something.


Please give us the dog's registered name so we can do our research on Entry Express. 
Thanks in advance!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Cody89 said:


> View attachment 21639
> Here would be something called research.


Um, no...that would be opinion, and a very biased one at that. It's not research. Plus, it's not even readable in the form you posted, so I had to go look it up. It is FULL of misinformation. The LRC has NEVER and will never recognize dilutes, and dilutes are a disqualification in the show ring. LRC decides what's acceptable. AKC just cashes checks. Additionally, there was no DNA testing done in that situation. If AKC recognized the dilute colors, they would be listed on the registration form,and they are not. So the dilute breeders have to lie to get them registered. 

Here's the LRC statement:

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> Names, titles and pedigrees, please.


Sharon, this should clear it up for you. Must be true, they have a website. 

http://www.colorfulk9s.com/index.html

Love the escalating price scale based on colors of doodles. And so it goes.......................


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Nothing against the Silver owners themselves, or the dogs.. If people want to run and enjoy their dogs regardless of color, more power to yah. But it is a recessive gene that I do not want in my stock. We already have quite few of those little genes we're already working around, some that got spread around pretty good which were definitely developed in house. I don't want to worry about another little condition, who's very origin is controversial at best, moving around in my lines. So if you have a dilute-dilute carrying dog at the very least own up to it, and don't sneak around; this is something any reputable breeder would do; to ensure everyone is completely informed on what they are developing . The truth is Slivers are here, they are AKC registered, just as some black and tan-brindled etc. dogs are registered. That genie will not be going back in the bottle; but I don't have to be associated with it either.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Golddogs said:


> Sharon, this should clear it up for you. Must be true, they have a website.
> 
> http://www.colorfulk9s.com/index.html
> 
> Love the escalating price scale based on colors of doodles. And so it goes.......................


But they are "AKC inspected and approved"! What more do you want?


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

DoubleHaul said:


> But they are "AKC inspected and approved"! What more do you want?


Yes, I too look for AKC inspected facilities. Do you know what branch of the AKC does that? 

Hopefully they have a better sense of humor then the USDA and DEA folks that I deal with on an annual basis.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Notice how the website never offers any health clearances, AKC/UKC registration #s, or full names of there dogs. A "breeder of quality" generally displays their health clearances and full names with pride, or at a minimum posts a several generation pedigree. Instead this one stick to call names and says they have "a very heavy champion bloodline with lots of MH, JH, FC, AFC" etc. . . Shady, shady, shady


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Watched a few at a hunt test in MN last year. A few didn't like the water and all of them seemed to lack drive. Speaking for myself I would never own one.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

If I wanted a dog of that color with the ability to train and hunt, I would get a Chessie. If I wanted a dog of that color that "might" hunt (due to it being bred out of many of them) and with dubious temperament, I would get a Weimaraner. If I wanted to get to get a lab, then I would get a lab! 
Why would I buy a weim x lab mix with dubious temperament and health issues when I can get a purebred healthy lab in black, yellow (many shades), or chocolate?


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## Cody89 (Jul 16, 2013)

haha people on here are so funny.. I cant tell you how many chocloate or yellow or black dogs that I have seen that lack drive and everything else. ITs in the blood haha yall make my day I LOVE my silvers and all mine have health test and are normal/clear. Yall just dont do your homework like I said before they use to kill or shun chocolates if born as well as yellow then after testing they are ok Silvers are going threw that now.. However there are people that are not breeding right I am sure which thats alot of people out there IF the dogs blood dont have drive you want have it.


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## Cody89 (Jul 16, 2013)

Im over stupidity and out of this forum but how can y'all say Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are true??????????????????????? LOOK at their coats IF silver isnt a lab they sure as hec are not either but Im out of this forum.... hahahahahahahaahha


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Cody89 said:


> I LOVE my silvers and all mine have health test and are normal/clear. Yall just dont do your homework like I said before they use to kill or shun chocolates if born as well as yellow then after testing they are ok Silvers are going threw that now.. However there are people that are not breeding right I am sure which thats alot of people out there IF the dogs blood dont have drive you want have it.


If you have health clearances on your dogs post their SR# and their OFA# to prove it or better yet post your pedigree(s).


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Cody89 said:


> Im over stupidity and out of this forum but how can y'all say Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are true??????????????????????? LOOK at their coats IF silver isnt a lab they sure as hec are not either but Im out of this forum.... hahahahahahahaahha


Chesapeake Bey Retrievers aren't Labrador Retrievers - they are two distinct breeds, so not sure what your point is?

FOM


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Cody89 said:


> Im over stupidity and out of this forum but how can y'all say Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are true??????????????????????? LOOK at their coats IF silver isnt a lab they sure as hec are not either but Im out of this forum.... hahahahahahahaahha




Chesapeake Bay Retrievers were the first breed accepted into the AKC registry in 1887, before there were any Labs in the U.S. The breed has always had dilute colors in it; and unlike Labs has only one genetic base coat color. Labradors might, at one point, have carried the dilution gene but over many generations it was bred out of them (selected against). So it's really a moot point if someone discovered a dilution gene, and/or fraudulently registered dilute-carrying crossbreds as purebred Labs--deliberately breeding them for color is still wrong. It is the intentional propagation of a disqualifying flaw.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Cody89 said:


> haha people on here are so funny.. I cant tell you how many chocloate or yellow or black dogs that I have seen that lack drive and everything else. ITs in the blood haha yall make my day I LOVE my silvers and all mine have health test and are normal/clear. Yall just dont do your homework like I said before they use to kill or shun chocolates if born as well as yellow then after testing they are ok Silvers are going threw that now.. However there are people that are not breeding right I am sure which thats alot of people out there IF the dogs blood dont have drive you want have it.


do you work at a convenience store in NC? If not I'm pretty sure your source of breed info does!&#55357;&#56860;


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

Wait a minute...

MY DOGS AREN'T TRUE?

Then where does all that dog food I buy go?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Pigeons and chessboards.
Pigeons and chessboards.
Pigeons and chessboards.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Cody89 said:


> Im over stupidity and out of this forum but how can y'all say Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are true??????????????????????? LOOK at their coats IF silver isnt a lab they sure as hec are not either but Im out of this forum.... hahahahahahahaahha



God Speed.


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## Oz1 (Dec 9, 2011)

jrrichar said:


> I am sorry but a 95+ lb. huge lab is *no more a lab *then a silver is. Breeders should not be knowingly doing either. The breed standard is called a standard for a reason. A lab is a lab. Don't make it something it isn't coat color, size, or otherwise.
> 
> If you like silver and big is your thing then I think a chessie is much in line with your preferences.



My boy is 100lbs and is all black lab. He was the largest in the litter, I think his brother runs about 80lb. Good genes with some very strong dogs in his line. So be careful when you say things like you said!


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## crawfordw2 (Jan 8, 2013)

_As most of us know, many breeds were used to refine and develop the Labrador retriever breed as we know it today. A simple Internet search will provide information about the infusion(s) of other breeds, including Newfoundland, Chesapeake Bay retriever, and Flat coated retriever. __The late Mary Roslin Williams is heralded as one of the foremost authorities on the Labrador retriever breed. In her 1986 speech to the Labrador Retriever Club, she mentions having first-hand knowledge of breeders who used Foxhounds, Greyhounds and even Border Collies in their Labrador retriever breeding programs. Each breeder was seeking to refine a unique set of skills. For example, Greyhounds were introduced to attempt to add speed to the English Field Trial dogs. Of the breeds we have mentioned, which are documented to have been used in the formation of the Labrador retriever breed, we can see the following with regard to the status of the dilution gene in that breed:_
_Newfoundland – Dilute gene exists._
_Chesapeake Bay retriever – Dilute gene exists._
_Flat coated retriever – Dilute gene does not exist._
_Foxhound – Dilute gene exists_
_Greyhound – Dilute gene exists_
_Border collie – Dilute gene exists_
_I find it quite interesting that, of the 6 breeds documented to have been used in the creation of today’s Labrador retriever, the dilution gene naturally exists in 5 of them._


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Well, if it's on the internet it must be gospel.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

crawfordw2 said:


> _I find it quite interesting that, of the 6 breeds documented to have been used in the creation of today’s Labrador retriever, the dilution gene naturally exists in 5 of them._


If the dogs in your signature line are dilute Labs, then congratulations on training and titling them. However I do take issue with this part of your quote. Yes Labs were originally formed from other existing breeds, including those that carry the dilution gene. However, these breeds were introduced for specific qualities, and their other traits were selected against (culled) *including dilute colors*, and bred out of them. Would you think it was OK to breed white markings, curly tails, long silky hair into them because some of the ancestor breeds had these traits? I sure hope not. It is equally as arrogant and incorrect to breed a color back into them that was selected against because "you" like it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

^^^^ What Julie said. And I also congratulate you on the titles.


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## crawfordw2 (Jan 8, 2013)

Julie R. said:


> If the dogs in your signature line are dilute Labs, then congratulations on training and titling them.


Some of the dogs in the signature line are dilutes that I have trained and titled. Did I mention they all have had CNM, EIC and OFA hips & elbows tested. 

There are very few dilutes out there that have any titles and health clearances so I agree with what people are saying about breeding just for color. I do not breed just for color, but also performance and overall health of the dogs.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

crawfordw2 said:


> Some of the dogs in the signature line are dilutes that I have trained and titled. Did I mention they all have had CNM, EIC and OFA hips & elbows tested.
> 
> There are very few dilutes out there that have any titles and health clearances so I agree with what people are saying about breeding just for color. I do not breed just for color, but also performance and overall health of the dogs.


I agree that by health testing and training/titling you are at least keeping the health and trainability of the Lab in mind, so you're to be applauded for that. But why in the world would you want to be associated with the rest of the garbage that breeds and buys these dogs? If you like the color, why not get an ash Ches. or a Weim and train/breed that?


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## crawfordw2 (Jan 8, 2013)

Julie R. said:


> I agree that by health testing and training/titling you are at least keeping the health and trainability of the Lab in mind, so you're to be applauded for that. But why in the world would you want to be associated with the rest of the garbage that breeds and buys these dogs? If you like the color, why not get an ash Ches. or a Weim and train/breed that?


I like a challenge in everything I do. I had people tell me since day 1 that you can't train and title a dilute. Being able to do something that not many people can say they have done is a win for me. Some people will say that I have still not accomplished anything thing yet and won't until you earn a MH. We are working towards that now so we will see.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Oz1 said:


> My boy is 100lbs and is all black lab. He was the largest in the litter, I think his brother runs about 80lb. Good genes with some very strong dogs in his line. So be careful when you say things like you said!


My point was to the OP statement and the second sentence. Breeders should NOT be knowingly selecting for size that is beyond the breed standard. When they do they are just as guilty as those that try to select outside the breed standard on coat color. If large was accidental like in your case (with the dam, sire, and siblings within the breed standard) then obviously the breeder was not knowingly going outside the standards. Black and white. Grey is always a byproduct but we shouldn't be knowingly selecting for grey.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

crawfordw2 said:


> I like a challenge in everything I do. I had people tell me since day 1 that you can't train and title a dilute. Being able to do something that not many people can say they have done is a win for me. Some people will say that I have still not accomplished anything thing yet and won't until you earn a MH. We are working towards that now so we will see.


Like I said, you're way above 99.9 percent of the other dilute breeders out there but polishing one end of a turd doesn't make it smell any better.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Hang on I need to make more popcorn.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors

I've not read the entire thread this may have been posted already.......

The LRC position on Silvers....

There is a letter from the president of the LRC floating around face book addressing this as well.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors

I'm just going to leave this here. 

Mr. Crawford,
Good luck running your dogs and congrats on your success this far (not sarcastic); however, don't be surprised if AKC follows the way of UKC/HRC and begins to disallow "silvers" from running in performance events. I spent a few minutes researching your dog's pedigrees and specifically the "Silvertones" breeder. There is a LOT of misinformation on their website and few health certifications to back them up. Lots of breeding dogs with "Fair" hips or "pre-lims" Good hips. Also when I looked the dogs up on your sig line I didn't see any EIC or CNM results listed on the OFA site with the Hips/Elbow results. Could be an error or maybe OFA hasn't received the info yet so there is certainly room for error.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Ahooge said:


> I'll just leave this hear for reference and resource.
> 
> http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors
> 
> ...





Peter Balzer said:


> http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors
> 
> I'm just going to leave this here.
> 
> ...


Pete i had posted it earlier, but it all good


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ahooge said:


> MyMy definition of a large Lab is 95+ lbs. And not just weight. Height to go with it. I have seen a lot of large labs 95+ the only problem is that it was in the same bloodline and those dogs are all gone now.
> 
> I'm not trying to be unrealistic I just know what I want.[/QUOTE)
> 
> In field dogs 75-80 would be considered a big dog, over 85 huge. I can't imagine a 95# dog holding up physically to what we do.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Can someone steer me to information that disallows silvers/dilutes to run and/or title in HRC?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

My info was based on first hand comments made at the 2014 HRC national meeting. I'll look and see where in righting I can find it.. . . if I can.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> My info was based on first hand comments made at the 2014 HRC national meeting. I'll look and see where in righting I can find it.. . . if I can.


 Just curious; I have a few dogs that are UKC registered but let my HRC membership lapse since there are so few tests in my area (and my dogs are CBRs). What is the UKC stance on registering and/or showing these dilutes? Do UKC papers for Labs list only black, yellow and chocolate? Can people show their dilute Labs in the HRC shows? (edited to add I meant the UKC conformation shows, I know HRC is their retriever test program).


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Just spoke with our field rep....they are not allowed in UKC conformation/are disqualified, but as HRC judges, we are NOT allowed to disqualify based on color. We're supposed to judge the performance of the dog. I've also emailed UKC regarding this, and will report back.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Sharon Potter said:


> Just spoke with our field rep....they are not allowed on conformation, but as HRC judges, we are NOT allowed to disqualify based on color. We're supposed to judge the performance of the dog. I've also emailed UKC regarding this, and will report back.


I've emailed my field rep as well, but I don't think they would disqualify based on color. I would think they would be disqualified as they are not recognized as "purebred" retrievers that meet the UKC/HRC.

I believe they would use this clause in the rule book to stand on:
WHO CAN PARTICIPATE
UKC, Inc. Licensed HRC Hunt Tests are open to allpurebred hunting retrievers, versatile Gun Dog breedsand Airedale Terriers. UKC Permanently Registereddogs and those in the Limited Privilege (LP) Program willbe given preference over all non-UKC registered dogs ofcurrent HRC Members meeting the Club’s EntryDeadlines entering in all events. Non-UKC registered dogsare able to participate in a Licensed Hunt Test (no pointswill be awarded unless registration requirements are met).HRC, Inc. and/or affiliated HRC club officers have theright to refuse the entry of any dog or handler. However,no handler shall be refused entry based upon religion,race, color, national origin, age or sex


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

In regards to UKC: A dog with ANY disqualifying fault is to be registered on a Limited registration. NOT FULL!! Maybe of these dilutes are running under full registration which in turn is in violation of UKC registration rules. In theory, a dog could be stripped of titles earned under the full registration. There have been some complaints already filed against dogs meeting this description. Run all you want in performance. But it better be with a limited registration.

From the UKC standard: COLOR

Color may be solid black, any solid shade of yellow from red to pale cream, or any solid shade of chocolate. Yellow dogs may have variations in shading on the ears, back and underside of the dog. A small white spot on the chest is permissible but not preferred. White hairs from aging or scarring should not be penalized.

Disqualifications: Any color or combination of colors other than described above; albinism. 

And no silver is NOT a shade of chocolate


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

The problem is that in order to register a dog with the UKC all you need is an AKC registration paperwork which is being falsely registered as chocolate...that's the loophole.

I think that's part of the problem, AKC has allowed them into the registry, how is the UKC gonna keep them out of theirs?


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

This is the letter sent to members of the LRC. I think it's pretty clear dilutes have never been nor will they ever be accepted by the parent club.

The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc.
To the Membership —
As President of The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. I want to share information on the status of the Club’s attempts to respond to the problem regarding the registration of dogs as Labrador Retrievers with the dilute coat color identified as “silver.”
In 1986 the Club attempted to have AKC deny registration of Labradors identified with the “silver” coat color. That did not happen after an AKC representative investigating the breeding facilities of the dogs exhibiting the dilute coat color made the decision to categorize the color as chocolate under the “other” option on the registration application. Subsequent generations of dogs carrying the dilute gene remain in breeding programs, many bred to recognized titled dogs.
Scientific evidence has shown us that there is no evidence of a dilute gene in the coat color background of the Labrador Retriever. Despite the Parent Club’s multiple attempts to request that the American Kennel Club deny full registration to dogs exhibiting a dilute coat color, these dogs still remain in the breeding pool and kennels focusing on dilute coat colors proliferate. At this time, our best option to protect the gene pool for the Labrador Retriever is to encourage the use of the DNA test to identify carriers of the dilute gene. I want to urge each of you, especially those with active stud dogs, to have breeding stock tested for the dilute gene and include the information in your advertising. I am also suggesting that we add the test to the requirements for an LRC, Inc. Breeders’ Directory listing.
Please share this with your local specialty club members. .
Fred Kampo, Jr.
President, The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

kona's mom said:


> In regards to UKC: A dog with ANY disqualifying fault is to be registered on a Limited registration. NOT FULL!!.......


 The UKC doesn't have any such thing as "Limited Registration".


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

It's called the limited privilege or performance listing


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/WebPages/Registration/FAQsFaults


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

kona's mom said:


> It's called the limited privilege or performance listing


 Yeah, but that's more like AKC's PAL/ILP, than it is like Limited Registration.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Thank you, Nicole, for posting the announcement from the LRC. I had just pulled it up and was planning to include it in this thread until I saw you had posted it. I would really like to encourage all of you that use your Labs as breeding stock to have them tested for the dilute gene, and post the results on the OFA site. It is very easy to do, having done it myself and had it posted. 

I agree with the earlier comments about breeding stock behind Labs. I have Goldens as well as Labs, and we have many of the same breeds mentioned behind them but once the stud books on both breeds were closed, no further outside lines were allowed to be included. 

The AKC Rep that suggested registering that original litter as chocolates and upon whose head initially all this falls, later did acknowledge there was a male Weim on the grounds. He has not been an AKC Rep for many years. This, of course, all incurred before the use of DNA testing. 

For those of you who do have "silvers," I am sure you love them and enjoy them. But please don't register them with the AKC as "chocolates" --- how can you advertise them as "rare silvers" and ask a large price for them, yet know that the only way they can be registered is to prevaricate and call them chocolates. As to hunting abilities, etc., as a kid, I saw many dogs from a variety of breeds and mixtures who had a lot of hunting talent. They were well loved and great family pets---they often belonged to what is a rare breed known as "mutts." Didn't mean that each and everyone of them wasn't greatly treasured by the owner, but they normally were not used as breeding stock and if they were, everyone knew exactly what they were buying upfront. 

Glenda


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Even though I will never Buy a Diddle, Doodle, Silver, Dilute, or a Dudley, I find it amusing that people will still buy a puppy from a NFC, FC, AFC, ect. that may be Noisy, Creepy, Bad elbows, Bad Hips, or any combination and think nothing of it, because the dog is very talented, and at the same time hog pilling on the guy that may not know any better. How many people that are looking for a silver are really looking to RTF for a litter? Some times it's best to watch your own Bobber and not worry about the guys down the bank.


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

Todd, You're right, they won't be looking to RTF for a dilute dog. They'll be looking here for breeding opportunities as part of their "Improvement Movement". One of the goals of the "Improvement Movement" is to strengthen the pedigree of their silver lines by breeding to titled lines. This is a resource for well bred pups and stud dogs with titles that can be used to improve their lines. I, for one, have no interest in seeing my dogs show up in silver pedigrees.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Mine are common as dirt and Black, so I have nothing to worry about,( I understand what the chocolate breeders have to worry about with Dilutes) but I still find some breedings that are (hush-hush) irionic, considering how much emphisis we put on clearences and performance.


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

I know where you're coming from. I've questioned a few of those performance over clearance breedings myself.


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

If you have Blacks you half to worry about Charcoals, if you have Yellows Champagne is your worry. This how thru get through the Show world also.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Official UKC/HRC current policy regarding silver:

I contacted both my HRC Field Rep and Todd Kellam at UKC regarding the silver issue. Todd sent me the email below, and my Field Rep gave me pretty much the same response.

"This was THE hot topic at last year's HRC National Meeting. I spoke on it a lot. UKC will not knowingly register a Lab as silver and does not condone registering silver labs as chocolate. However the only events in which color is judged is conformation shows. Conformation Judges are required to disqualify a dog for being off colored and are to report it. Performance event judges, including HRC judges, are not to disqualify or a report a dog for color disqualification. That's how it is being handled for now. If there are any changes to this policy you will see them reported in Hunting Retriever magazine."


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

Todd Caswell said:


> Mine are common as dirt and Black, so I have nothing to worry about,( I understand what the chocolate breeders have to worry about with Dilutes) but I still find some breedings that are (hush-hush) irionic, considering how much emphisis we put on clearences and performance.


Black labs also have issues with dilute breeders. A dilute chocolate is silver, a dilute black is called charcoal, and they even have dilute yellows they call champagne - but it is tough to tell the dilute yellows from any other yellow.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Don't the dilute yellows lack pigment around the eyes?


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Todd Caswell said:


> Even though I will never Buy a Diddle, Doodle, Silver, Dilute, or a Dudley, I find it amusing that people will still buy a puppy from a NFC, FC, AFC, ect. that may be Noisy, Creepy, Bad elbows, Bad Hips, or any combination and think nothing of it, because the dog is very talented, and at the same time hog pilling on the guy that may not know any better. How many people that are looking for a silver are really looking to RTF for a litter? Some times it's best to watch your own Bobber and not worry about the guys down the bank.



I had only asked because I was very in educated in this color and wanted to know the thoughts of the people.. I got their thoughts and I was educated as well as finding out how accepted the color is. Or in this case isn't. I was wondering tho Todd on what your view was on the Dudley.


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## jacksonsmith (Feb 12, 2015)

I wanted the opinion on the silver color because I didn't want to have 1 come up that was the proper size and end up jumping into a color that it's frowned upon


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

Silver, Charcoal, Fox reds, and whites are pure bred labs. I only wish people would stop saying that it is a mix between weimaraner and a lab. The same idiots that are complaining about flooding the gene pool with muts are persuading people that they are to breed labs with weimaraner to achieve these dogs and some other idiots hear this and try it. Can't register a mut. Dilute labs are offspring of blacks, yellows, and chocolates. Once this dilute lab is bred to the same color you achieve the definite in the color. This is why you see more of them is because now people are breeding the dog to its match in color. You can take two of the greatest labs in the world and breed them together and have all common colored pups and one diluted if the gene is present. People will argue this but who has ever had DNA testing on their dog. I have owned chocolates and blacks and now have a silver all trained by the same trainer and all perform above my expectations. The black being the least excited and hyper of the three, but I think this has its afvantages. Also I would like to know where the opinions of silvers having poor health and hip dysplasia and such are coming from. My dog came with a lifetime gaurantee, parents with titles, including grandparents who were not dilluted. If you know as little as you portray of the breed then how do you know so much about their health.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

See this months retriever news.


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

How do I navigate to retriever news?


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

Silvers remind me of a current fad going on right now, Kaitlin Jenner both have a lot in common JMHO


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

Hahahaha I see you keep up with your interests...


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

My silver companion is only 1 year old at the moment and I am overly pleased with his abilities and continuous improvement. I haven't had to get out the blind or throw rocks at fallen ducks yet. 100 percent pleased with his drive and super quick learning. You show him once and he almost instantly gets it. Since a puppy he was very eager and ready to go. I will have to update on health issues if any arise in the future as people are stating, which are traits of poorly bred labs. Whether black, Yellow, etc...


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Bottom line is there are NO silver, charcoal or white Labrador Retrievers. There are BLACK, YELLOW & CHOCOLATE.


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

Also my dog was purchased at Silver and Charcoal Kennels out of Mississippi. JW If silvers are from Wiemaraner then where do charcoal, champagne, and reds come from. I know crap about Weimaraner but I think they only come in one color. As stated I assume people may be breeding Weimaraner and chocolates because this is how they think these dogs are created but these dogs would not be registered as labs.


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

Vickey,

I aplogize for that. He is a chocolate lab.  Check his papers...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Charley,

*Your barking up the wrong tree....*


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

I have trained or tried to train 5 of them, add some labradoodals and end up with zero gun dogs


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

BJ I knew I was barking up the wrong tree before I posted first comment. Thanks for the heads up. Lol.

Terry,
Everyday very good Labs are rejected for further training after obedience due to resistance or lack of drive. Not all dogs have it. I've seen friends spend 1000 plus on a champion bloodline for the trainer to say you have a good pet and that's it. I just feel some old school prejudice because yellows and blacks have been and still are majority. Chocolate was not always common. Is this a lab.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Charley you may want to read this....


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

So black labs carrying the gene breeding black labs produce pure labs. Also if one comes out silver then that puppy is not pure.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Charley (Gator) said:


> *BJ I knew I was barking up the wrong tree before I posted first comment*. Thanks for the heads up. Lol.
> 
> Terry,
> Everyday very good Labs are rejected for further training after obedience due to resistance or lack of drive. Not all dogs have it. I've seen friends spend 1000 plus on a champion bloodline for the trainer to say you have a good pet and that's it. I just feel some old school prejudice because yellows and blacks have been and still are majority. Chocolate was not always common. Is this a lab.


Then why persist unless you want the attention. Just saying..
You can talk until you are blue in the face, but it will be on deaf ears unless you like to hear your voice.


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

Also just would like to mention if this genetic mishaps took place in the 1930s to 1940s then most people offending the breed should do DNA testing on their Blacks and Chocolates and if you truly believe what you preach then I will pick up your dog's free of charge and take them off your hands when you find that your dog has this gene.


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

I am only feeling that these LABS are being portrayed as defects as if they are deformed and doomed for failure which is far from the truth.There is no evidence to prove they are not pure neither that they have diseases. Poorly bred labs have hip dysplasia and such diseases. I do agree that you should know what you are buying by forms of family medical history. Color of a dog doesn't mean it will have health problems or any different behavior traits than any other labs


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Charley (Gator) said:


> I am only feeling that these LABS are being portrayed as defects as if they are deformed and doomed for failure which is far from the truth.There is no evidence to prove they are not pure neither that they have diseases. Poorly bred labs have hip dysplasia and such diseases. I do agree that you should know what you are buying by forms of family medical history. Color of a dog doesn't mean it will have health problems or any different behavior traits than any other labs


Well then time will tell but not today.


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## Charley (Gator) (Jun 10, 2015)

Agreed. I am giving it a shot as he is a great dog thus far. If all goes well I will have another. If not then I will go back to chocolates.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Charley (Gator) said:


> Also just would like to mention if this genetic mishaps took place in the 1930s to 1940s then most people offending the breed should do DNA testing on their Blacks and Chocolates and if you truly believe what you preach then I will pick up your dog's free of charge and take them off your hands when you find that your dog has this gene.


There are many doing just this, and OFA has agreed to maintain a database for dilute free Labradors. Believe me when I say this, wholeheartedly, if any of my field-bred Labs ever came up with the dilute gene, they would be spayed/neutered and NEVER bred, never allowed to perpetuate the bastardization of a wonderful breed. Quit throwing fox red in with silvers and charcoals. Fox red is a shade of yellow and as such, is listed in the breed standard. There is plenty of proof that fox red has always been in the spectrum of yellow for Labs. Silver is not listed within the range of chocolate. I've seen some pretty light shaded chocolates. But they are not even close to a "silver" shade. Registering silver as chocolate is a lie and a scam. I know, it is falling on deaf ears, silvers are here to stay because of greedy scammers breeding them into the purebred Labrador gene pool, but, to the real Labrador owners, silver is not and never will be a Labrador. Go make your own registry and breed and have at it. Leave the pure Labradors alone. I understand silver owners love their dogs, and they can have what they want, just quit calling them Labradors.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

What Rainmaker said. And especially now that OFA is maintaining a database for the dilute gene in Labs so the defect can be tested for and avoided. And yes, it is considered a defect, to be discarded and not carried forward.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Terry Marshall said:


> I have trained or tried to train 5 of them, add some labradoodals and end up with zero gun dogs


I've seen several mutts trained by complete amateurs that were fine gun dogs. Even watched a video of a guy dove hunting with a pit bull. If you can't train "silver labs" or lab/poodle cross to hunt, I'd be willing to bet that it wasn't the dogs fault.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Charley (Gator) said:


> I am only feeling that these LABS are being portrayed as defects as if they are deformed and doomed for failure which is far from the truth.There is no evidence to prove they are not pure neither that they have diseases. Poorly bred labs have hip dysplasia and such diseases. I do agree that you should know what you are buying by forms of family medical history. Color of a dog doesn't mean it will have health problems or any different behavior traits than any other labs


Charley, you are correct that color is not a guarantee of anything health related.

An argument on the internet is frequently quite pointless.

According to Dr. Frances O. Smith DVM, PhD
Chair, Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. Genetics committee:

You've been duped.

This is described in paragraph one, page 33, The Retriever News, June 2015 Issue - Volume 8, number 3.

Todd Caswell posted a screen shot of the article.

All pets deserve to be loved and humanely cared-for. I am sincerely happy for you that you are taking a dog bred for the pet market and working to turn it into a working dog. That's great.

Have fun. Enjoy. 

I'd strongly urge those who want to argue with Charley to save your energy and focus on something more productive. 

Chris


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Did you know that every single silver pedigree goes back to two kennels that happen to have weimeraners also ? (Kellogg and Culo)


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Silvers continue to only show up in litters sold by "silver" breeders. Even with thousands of back yard bred labs a year only the people marketing silver puppies are able to produce them..........what does that tell anyone with an open mind?


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Charley (Gator) said:


> Silver, Charcoal, Fox reds, and whites are pure bred labs. I only wish people would stop saying that it is a mix between weimaraner and a lab. The same idiots that are complaining about flooding the gene pool with muts are persuading people that they are to breed labs with weimaraner to achieve these dogs and some other idiots hear this and try it. Can't register a mut. Dilute labs are offspring of blacks, yellows, and chocolates. Once this dilute lab is bred to the same color you achieve the definite in the color. This is why you see more of them is because now people are breeding the dog to its match in color. You can take two of the greatest labs in the world and breed them together and have all common colored pups and one diluted if the gene is present. People will argue this but who has ever had DNA testing on their dog. I have owned chocolates and blacks and now have a silver all trained by the same trainer and all perform above my expectations. The black being the least excited and hyper of the three, but I think this has its afvantages. Also I would like to know where the opinions of silvers having poor health and hip dysplasia and such are coming from. My dog came with a lifetime gaurantee, parents with titles, including grandparents who were not dilluted. If you know as little as you portray of the breed then how do you know so much about their health.


I don't believe that people are saying that the silvers we see these days are currently being created by breeding labs with weimers, but rather, that cross occurred sometime in the past and introduced the "silver" (dilute) gene into the bloodline. Now, when two dogs bearing that trait are bred, the trait MAY be expressed.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> There are many doing just this, and OFA has agreed to maintain a database for dilute free Labradors. Believe me when I say this, wholeheartedly, if any of my field-bred Labs ever came up with the dilute gene, they would be spayed/neutered and NEVER bred, never allowed to perpetuate the bastardization of a wonderful breed. Quit throwing fox red in with silvers and charcoals. Fox red is a shade of yellow and as such, is listed in the breed standard. There is plenty of proof that fox red has always been in the spectrum of yellow for Labs. Silver is not listed within the range of chocolate. I've seen some pretty light shaded chocolates. But they are not even close to a "silver" shade. Registering silver as chocolate is a lie and a scam. I know, it is falling on deaf ears, silvers are here to stay because of greedy scammers breeding them into the purebred Labrador gene pool, but, to the real Labrador owners, silver is not and never will be a Labrador. Go make your own registry and breed and have at it. Leave the pure Labradors alone. I understand silver owners love their dogs, and they can have what they want, just* quit calling them Labradors*.


To solve that problem and augment our meager retirement fund, we will be breeding and selling Silverdors. Look for it to be the next dog able to run AKC retriever tests.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Charley (Gator) said:


> Agreed. I am giving it a shot as he is a great dog thus far. If all goes well I will have another. If not then I will go back to chocolates.


As a Golden owner, I'm curious as to what attributes you believe are making your dog a great dog, and if you believe you are more or less likely to achieve that in another Silver or Black Lab? In Golden's we have three dominant colors, light, medium and dark (red). I prefer the dark red dogs, but color is not even a consideration to me when I'm picking a pup. If I was looking at a great pedigree of proven producers, but all the pups were light, I'd take one without hesitation.

It kind of seems to me that your number one consideration is the Silver color, and you are willing to roll the dice on getting another "great" dog. I think that is the problem the traditional Lab people are having with Silver enthusiasts, they perceive that everything else is secondary to the color of the dog. You can get away with that with Black, Yellow and Chocolate, their are lots of seriously good, proven lines in all three colors, not so much with Silvers.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Speaking of dilute...who does the test for the dilute gene? I want to get a color test for my young one, figured I might as well get the dilute test, too... (and no I didn't do a search, I'm being lazy)


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> Speaking of dilute...who does the test for the dilute gene? I want to get a color test for my young one, figured I might as well get the dilute test, too... (and no I didn't do a search, I'm being lazy)


The Retriever News article linked in Todd's screenshot above specifically mentions VetGen, so they're one for sure.

Chris


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> The Retriever News article linked in Todd's screenshot above specifically mentions VetGen, so they're one for sure.
> 
> Chris


I'm looking at the website but it's confusing....I want to know the coat color for Riot and whether or not he carries dilute, so does that mean I have to order all the testing in the list? So confused...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> I'm looking at the website but it's confusing....I want to know the coat color for Riot and whether or not he carries dilute, so does that mean I have to order all the testing in the list? So confused...


I'm pretty sure VetGen is the one that I phoned and they were very helpful. I also recall being quite suprised and happy at how easy it was to get a live human to answer on the first ring or two.

It may be best to give them a call.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Just found this one in our state classified section and it looks to be a real steal

'Silver factored' AKC female chocolate started lab for sale. Just made a year old in May. Great dog just a change in work schedule gives me no time to fool with her like she needs. Comes with 6x10 chain link kennel and accessories, sport dog e-collar, and all training aids


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/ for DNA testing


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html

The most inexpensive for multi-testing that I've found. I most likely will be getting the color testing done including the d gene when I need to confirm (Clear by parentage) CNM & EIC status, on the current pup. Now that the law suit is finished and ddc can once again offer any test, one swab and I'll get it all done at once. Still I'll be pretty surprised if the d comes back as carrier, if it's in these lines; it just might have been in hiding out from foundation stock. Although I seriously doubt it 

Color testing for a Labrador would be Ee Bb, and now d; all other genes are pretty much fixed in the Labrador, and won't need to be tested for unless you've produced an interesting puppy (ex; black & tan / brindle); then you'll need to test your stock for those. Occasionally happens but pretty rare. The a genes are supposed to tell you what color yellow you could produce (don't know of anyone using it), there's an I (intensity) locus gene is believed responsible for fox red (they found haven't found the exact gene for that yet)

The OFA database will eventually really help with identifying d, Even if it is found to be in high preforming stock (highly unlikely IMO, but possible I guess); I assume it would be treated like any the other unwanted recessive gene, tested for and bred out.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Did you know that every single silver pedigree goes back to two kennels that happen to have weimeraners also ? (Kellogg and Culo)


Bridget, I was going to say the same thing. But also, that prior to these two kennels' dogs, the "dilute" gene was not there. Charley is barking up the wrong tree- people (like most of us) that give a dam about the breed Labrador Retriever, will never perpetuate, accept or promote anything other than the three accepted colors of Labradors : BLACK, YELLOW (yes, fox reds are yellows and say so in the standard),and CHOCOLATE. 
"and thats all I have to say about that"


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Raymond Little said:


> Just found this one in our state classified section and it looks to be a real steal
> 
> 'Silver factored' AKC female chocolate started lab for sale. Just made a year old in May. Great dog just a change in work schedule gives me no time to fool with her like she needs. Comes with 6x10 chain link kennel and accessories, sport dog e-collar, and all training aids


you mean a "real STEEL" ??


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

_Hunt'EmUp - I'm gonna get a color coat test and thought what the heck, might as well get the dilute gene checked off too, plus a DNA profile...need to know if he carries yellow, might have a girlfriend in a few months 

and trust me, I'll kill over with a heart attack if he has the dilute gene!_


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't think about it at all. Should be a separate breed.

Keith


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

Charley (Gator) said:


> Hahahaha I see you keep up with your interests...


 No not an Interest at all just something that turns my stomach as much as people trying to F up the breed we know as the Labrador Retriever and the Idiots breeding and buying them. With enough work you can teach a Rat Terrier to retrieve, some humans you can't teach anything JMHFO


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

windwalkers swan song said:


> Silvers remind me of a current fad going on right now, Kaitlin Jenner both have a lot in common JMHO


 Would luv to hear more of your awesome knowledge there CHUCKY GATOR ?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

windwalkers swan song said:


> No not an Interest at all just something that turns my stomach as much as people trying to F up the breed we know as the Labrador Retriever and the Idiots breeding and buying them. With enough work you can teach a Rat Terrier to retrieve, some humans you can't teach anything JMHFO


Careful you are going to bring Pals claws and fangs out about her JRT's. Tread lightly friend.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Careful you are going to bring Pals claws and fangs out about her JRT's. Tread lightly friend.


Yep.  Those little terriers are born retrievers. My last one even worked on a quail rig picking up cripples and delivering them to hand. My current JRT will retrieve until she is exhausted...and with their energy level, that's saying something.  Her momma has HRC passes.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I've been accused of changing over to teaching terriers instead of retrievers recently.

While it is true that I have FF'd two "terriers" and one of them actually loves shot flyers and has been known to pinch honor in retriever events, I am now training a retriever puppy. One whose "loci" (Is loci the plural of locus?) are EE and BB. I don't even know if he has a d locus.

Chris


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

UKC says they are not acceptable. AKC says they are not to standard either. What about those fox red labs.


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

hello aliens


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

featherqwest said:


> UKC says they are not acceptable. AKC says they are not to standard either. What about those fox red labs.
> View attachment 23432


"The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black - Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow - Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate - Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Breed+Standard


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

I think that is a photo of a Lab with the long-hair gene expression, which is not acceptable within the breed standard. However there is a genetic test for it so we can breed around it.

Meredith


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

featherqwest said:


> UKC says they are not acceptable. AKC says they are not to standard either. What about those fox red labs.
> View attachment 23432


 This pic looks more golden than Lab to me ?


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

featherqwest said:


> View attachment 23433


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

windwalkers swan song said:


> This pic looks more golden than Lab to me ?


Search "Whoolly Labradors", perhaps they will replace the "pointing labs".


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

We had fox terriers when I was young both the standard and later the toy loved them. I purchased myself a pair of pointers when I got closer to my teens, that's back when my part of Illinois had Ringnecks galore like you see in the Dakota and Iowa of today, they were everywhere. A lot of late fall mornings I had trouble getting on the school bus


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Damn guys...we still on this? 
Make piece within and continue on.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

In recent posts the main focus concerning the silver "Lab" seems to center on the dilute gene. We can test for that dilute gene. If we wanted we could even breed it out through testing and judicious breeding, but here's a point that hasn't been stressed; what about all of the other traits that may have been brought into the Labrador gene-pool from the probable outcross with Weimaraners? We might be able to breed out the dilution gene, but all of those other traits that may have been introduced to the breed would be nearly impossible to breed out. There's no test for them!

There's been more than enough bastardization of the Labrador in the past with likely outcrosses with Rottweilers, Newfoundlands, English Pointers, and who knows what else. Enough is Enough! If someone doesn't like the Labrador Retriever as he is intended, they should find another breed instead of trying to improve upon a breed that doesn't need their help.

Swack


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

mngundog said:


> "The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black - Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow - Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate - Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."
> 
> http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Breed+Standard




Ahhhhh....now it makes perfect sense. The gray is just old, stale, moldy chocolate!


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Moldy chocolate ..hmmm..isn't that what the Peke folk call their dogs Sedge??? Caroways' Wild Goose Chase regards...


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

No....sedge is a red-orange shade, not gray.  We do have a color called ash that is a grayish tan.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Yepp..got my colors messed up.Never could figure out magenta but your right..moldy chocolate could be dead grass???


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

mngundog said:


> Chocolate - Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."




I find it interesting that brindle and tan marking are mentioned in the standard as disqualifications. Brindle and tans markings have a history of showing up very rarely from foundation stock. along with Dudley, black, different shades of yellow & chocolate; all are written into the standard however no silver is mentioned? Doesn't take a breeder degree to recognize a silver as not a light chocolate, one would think if it were in the breed from foundation stock the breed standard would mention it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Still gotta go with ash or tan for that. Deadgrass is too yellow and light brown.  Chessie colors can be challenging.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

FOM said:


> Speaking of dilute...who does the test for the dilute gene? I want to get a color test for my young one, figured I might as well get the dilute test, too... (and no I didn't do a search, I'm being lazy)


I did all of mine w/ the DDC last summer when they were running a special for $38 first color and $20 ea additional. I think they are running the same special right now. http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html
PS: No dilute gene here, thank doG!!!!


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## Latisha (Feb 2, 2004)

Despite not being a Lab person, I have always followed this topic with interest. I do believe as many here say that the dilute gene was introduced (or re-introduced, more likely) with Weim blood.. It seems that the proper way this should have been handled would have been to disallow registrations from the beginning, something the LRC tried to accomplish but AKC opened Pandora's box and allowed them to register as chocolate. The problem as I see it now is that these dogs have been bred back to pure Labs for so many generations now that they breed true again and the gene is now in the Labrador pool. It does not take as many generations as you might think for this to happen. Just look at the successful cross-breeding (sanctioned by AKC) of the Dalmatian. As the debate continues and the years go on, this will only be more true, and soon, if not already, those that argue that Silvers are pure Lab will be correct. I have always wondered why the LRC does not choose instead to allow Silvers as a registrable color, albeit a disqualifying one. We have such a color in my breed. Dilute Tollers are registered as Buff and no one intentionally tries to call them Red. In this way the dilute can be easily tracked in pedigrees rather than continue on falsely hidden as chocolate or another color. Of course, it will not stop some breeders from intentionally producing more silvers for sale, but at least they would be recognized for what they are and prevent people from trying to claim them as anything but a DQ dilute. Reputable breeders can continue to clear their stock of the dilute gene, it serves a similar purpose but it seems like it is coming around at the problem from the backside to me. I am sure many would not agree with this knowing as I do that they feel the original Silvers were not purebred, and allowing the color would be an unwanted recognition of that. But, as I see it they are already being registered, and making Silver\Charcoal\Champagne (or perhaps just Dilute Black\Chocolate\Yellow) available would allow them to be classified as an incorrect color. This is only my observation as someone whose breed has always had a recognized dilute.


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

Ahooge said:


> I'll just leave this hear for reference and resource.
> 
> http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors
> 
> ...


An additional resource for researching pedigrees is the LabradorNet Database. If you search by color (default search is by name) and enter "Beware!" as the search string, you will get a list of dogs in the database who carry the dilute gene or are related to one who does. Owners may also submit the results of their color testing to the database and their dogs will be listed as known "dilute-free" dogs if the test results are 'clear'.


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