# AKC Hunt Test Judging Sheets



## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Should handlers be allowed to take a picture of their score sheet after an AKC hunt test? Please give info to support your position.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Without an understanding of any individual judges shorthand. A snapshot of the page will be nothing more than a glance at hieroglyphs. I do feel that handlers should be able to discuss the sheets. Not at the running line but by going through the proper protocol, after the test with an offering of cold bier or other alms.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Ken,
Assume you're using "bier" in the German definition. 
Agree. The rules allow the handler to view his/her score sheet. Nothing about sharing that with the world. 
Look, but don't tweet, regards.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

I know for myself, as a new handler in the game, I like to see the sheets. I find it helpful to know the types of things the judges are actually looking for and actually seeing. Unless something is clearly contentious, I don't think I would ever argue a point on a score sheet, but I do like understanding how the judges minds work. Over time, at higher levels, I will probably start keeping a log of what different judges deem important, and use that information as a focus point for training prior to running under them. Just my uneducated opinion.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

I would imagine that it would be up to the individual judge, as to whether they allow a handler to photo the sheets. As long as they are only taking the sheet from their dog, what's the issue? If you are a judge, and can't stand behind the scoresheet that you filled out for a particular dog, then you shouldn't be judging....


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Labs said:


> ....As long as they are only taking the sheet from their dog, what's the issue? ....


Imagin Monday mornings on the RTF. Somebody typing "My dog clearly went over the point in this test and the judge did not even draw the point!" and on and on....

or pointing out math errors!!!  
those poor akc judges need an abacus at the line these days 'cause of that no distracting electric device rule


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## boyetthunter (Jul 21, 2009)

Labs said:


> If you are a judge, and can't stand behind the scoresheet that you filled out for a particular dog, then you shouldn't be judging....


I couldn't agree more! It's like taking a test at school and never knowing what you got right/wrong. I think they should be handed out at the ribbon ceremony. However, there will always be those that get mad and with social media now it will be everywhere.


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

stonybrook said:


> Should handlers be allowed to take a picture of their score sheet after an AKC hunt test? Please give info to support your position.


At an A.K.C. Obedience event the judges sheets are posted for all to view after the class. This will tell the handler where they lost points and hopefully improve.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

View and discuss yes , but I agree the interpretation ,after the fact, without explanation from the judge could vary wildly. NO NEED for THAT. No Pictures


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Labs said:


> I would imagine that it would be up to the individual judge, as to whether they allow a handler to photo the sheets. As long as they are only taking the sheet from their dog, what's the issue? If you are a judge, and can't stand behind the scoresheet that you filled out for a particular dog, then you shouldn't be judging....


Are you a judge??


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd suggest approaching the judge one on one and having a friendly discussion. He may or may not want you to take a picture. It should not be about making a rule book fatter or more complicated. It is a simple matter of personal preference and communication. 

Not long ago, I judged an event and later happened to be talking with an owner whose pro ran his dog in the trial. I took a picture of my score sheet and sent it from my smartphone so he could see my sheet. (sometimes a picture can tell lots of words, as the saying goes) He never posted the picture on the net anyplace and I knew he wouldn't.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

As a judge, if asked nicely, I would not mine a picture of their sheet. As stated above, we need to be able to stick to our judgement.


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## Joe Martin (Feb 1, 2006)

Now, my sheets tend to be a little messy, but I don't think that I would mind giving a copy to a handler. I have actually sent sheets to handlers on Monday morning when they were not able to be there Sunday when the ribbons were handed out...


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## Saxxx011 (Nov 15, 2012)

Yes or No it really doesn't matter to me; however, seeing a grown man have a melt down and claim he is going to turn a judge into the AKC because he cannot take a picture is beyond childish. Its people like this that make every facet of life a complete struggle and usually end up lonely and unhappy. Take into consideration this individual got a ribbon.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Saxxx011 said:


> Yes or No it really doesn't matter to me; however, seeing a grown man have a melt down and claim he is going to turn a judge into the AKC because he cannot take a picture is beyond childish. Its people like this that make every facet of life a complete struggle and usually end up lonely and unhappy. Take into consideration this individual got a ribbon.


Did this really happen or are you speculating re the reason for the query?


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

The score sheet is the property of the Judge and as such it is the Judges discretion. The handler may request to see their score sheet. This is very different than making an electronic copy that can be shared with the world at any time. If you choose to allow an electronic copy to be made, be prepared to explain your decisions five, ten, or twenty years from now on RTF and/or other Social Media.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

road kill said:


> Are you a judge??


Sure am, Stan...=)


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Labs said:


> Sure am, Stan...=)


I judged with a co judge this past weekend that used an I-pad...........It was pretty slick in that he only drew the set up once.
Had the scoring template already laid out.
My only issue would be what happened 10 minutes after our test ended!!!!


Know what I mean???


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

I had this request a short time ago and had no issue with it. Handlers and owners have every right to see there sheet and if I have done my job right, should not care if a snap shot is taken of it. I do think asking is preferred and a proper way to go about it.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

road kill said:


> I judged with a co judge this past weekend that used an I-pad...........It was pretty slick in that he only drew the set up once.
> Had the scoring template already laid out.
> My only issue would be what happened 10 minutes after our test ended!!!!
> 
> ...


They make water resistant cases...the i-Pad holds up better than the paper score sheets and the waterproof scoresheets...and you can send the scoresheet in PDF form, should a participant request it...=)


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Golddogs said:


> I had this request a short time ago and had no issue with it. Handlers and owners have every right to see there sheet and if I have done my job right, should not care if a snap shot is taken of it. I do think asking is preferred and a proper way to go about it.


Couldn't agree more...


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Labs said:


> They make water resistant cases...the i-Pad holds up better than the paper score sheets and the waterproof scoresheets...and you can send the scoresheet in PDF form, should a participant request it...=)


I'm not sure how I feel about that.
I have my own shorthand system and as my co judge knows, I agonize over tough decisions.
(and we had one)
I think it fair to say, we try very hard to do the right thing.

Like has been mentioned, I would hate to see a judge raked over the coals due to a posted score card that some might not even understand.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Who buys the Ipad? I am a conciencous object to anything apple. Their technology costs too much IMHO.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

jacduck said:


> Who buys the Ipad? I am a conciencous object to anything apple. Their technology costs too much IMHO.


Me...I don't mind paying for stuff that doesn't crash like Windows based systems do. That's why the IRS doesn't buy Apple....a Windows crash keeps them out of jail...


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Another first: I was judging had a dog come to the line and smelled my hand-didnt think anything of it as I just finished my sandwich. Dog runs the blind-OK- and getting ready to do the walkup, birds go down , dog is released, picks up the flyer and on the second bird dog starts eating it too. Told the handler lets not have that!!! Do we need to document or is a big fat "0" ENOUGH? Another first a Pro comes up after the ribbons and asks about XYZ dog. Both of us judges look at each other and say almost simultaneously, HANDLED ON ALL 3 SERIES!!! Come on people- if we cant right down what our own dog did do we think the judges are going to catch every time a dog gets on or off a point? It is amazing how many times some folks can say sit or heel before birds are produced. Remember you are under judgement when you are called to the line.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

NO Way!

I have no problem going over my sheets with an owner/handler and explaining why the dog either passed or failed. That's more than is required and should be plenty. 

My sheets are usually a mess. There is a lot more information than just the dog's scores. They are not meant for anyone else to critique. I doubt anyone but me would understand them. They are my notes of the dog's performance used to refresh my memory if my co-judge & I disagree. 

The rule provides:


> *Handlers and owners* shall be permitted to review *their own dog’s* evaluation sheets at the conclusion of the test or when, in the judgment of the Test Secretary, it will not interfere with the computation of scores. *Judges are not required to rationalize their scores for handlers.*


Also from the rules:


> *The decision of the judges shall be final in all matters relating to the performance of the dogs.*


What legitimate reason would the handler/owner have for taking a picture? I can think of none. There are 2 judges and both judges have already agreed. There is no appeal. 

I've been around too long, and have seen too many judges get thrown under the bus for no good reason. I don't need the aggravation.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

As a handler, I have and would ask to look at the sheets if there was any doubt or question in my mind about why we did or did not pass. I would not want or need a photo to remember later.

As a judge, I have no problem showing the handler/owner the sheets and having a discussion on the dogs/handlers performance. I would be very skeptical of the purpose or need for photo of the sheet, even in the example Chris gave. To me, it serves no purpose to have the photo if I uncover the reason for additional training required to pass future events.


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## djansma (Aug 26, 2004)

The rules state the owner and the handler. Can see their judges sheets
question answered !!!!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Agree, Doug. I have only been asked once at an hrc test. The handler just titled HRCH with is Poodle. I sent it to him.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

djansma said:


> The rules state the owner and the handler. Can see their judges sheets
> question answered !!!!


Sure, and they can stick around and review them at the end. Not allowed to copy them.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> Without an understanding of any individual judges shorthand. A snapshot of the page will be nothing more than a glance at hieroglyphs. I do feel that handlers should be able to discuss the sheets. Not at the running line but by going through the proper protocol, after the test with an offering of cold bier or other alms.


This is so correct, also get your explanation on why you did not pass or passed and do not debate the opinion or other things that happened in your mind.

My notes can only be read by me, because I have so much to watch on the line to insure everyone gets a fair shake and how well your dog has performed ... including but not limited .... make sure the blind is down, insure we got the right dog number, take the duck from the retrieve, wring its neck if necessary, call for guns up, call for the dog to be released, make sure honor dog is not being whipped (verbally), signal for birds to be thrown, make sure the gallery is not too noisy .... on and on ... so my writing gets a little cryptic at best. But, i will have enough notes that I understand the dogs performance so that I can give you a fair review in a discussion with my co-judge. There might be a little blood on the paper, wind torn, and possibly rained on but I will be able to read it, not so much the handler I would guess.

I forgot, wake up the bird boy in station number 2


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

My vote is No. But thank you that do judge.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

It's all in how you approach people when you think there is a problem. This gentleman approached very aggressively and everybody at the ribbon ceremony were shocked at how loud and obnoxious he was. I don't care either way if somebody wants to take a picture of the scorecard or not but my god let's protect our judges and not let this happen. If this happens too often we won't have any judges anymore.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I voted NO...Why? I believe an eye to eye talk to a judge after the event is sufficient. JMO.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

As an HRC judge, I voted "NO"!!!

For the simple fact that I don't want to have to try to explain my "hiroglyphics" on a forum like this!!!! For the simple fact that............even if I'm "right".................I'm still "wrong".................no matter!!!!!!!!!!


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

I agree no pictures. It has nothing to do with standing behind what you judge. It is very difficult to accurately draw out all of the factors for each series for 60 or so dogs. As day goes on drawings get less detailed. Like many others I have shorthand notes and on occasion write things the handler might not be happy to see. I also don't do my math out. By the time the third series has ended, I know whether or not a given dog has passed. I have no problem discussing things with handlers, but by and large feel most handlers should know why they failed. They aren't asking to learn what they need to work on, they are basically complaining because they did not pass. Poor line manners, poor blinds, multiple long hunts and handles. Do they really need to ask why?

Dawn


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

yellow machine said:


> It's all in how you approach people when you think there is a problem. This gentleman approached very aggressively and everybody at the ribbon ceremony were shocked at how loud and obnoxious he was. I don't care either way if somebody wants to take a picture of the scorecard or not but my god let's protect our judges and not let this happen. If this happens too often we won't have any judges anymore.


There is a way to handle such situations and it's spelled out in the AKC manual dealing with misconduct. There is no excuse for the conduct described and no excuse for allowing it to go on. The HT committee has the responsibility and authority to deal w/ such situations.


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## Labs4us (Dec 20, 2009)

If you want to look at my Judges sheets, the numbers portion at the top are the only thing you will be able to figure out, the diagrams are mine & may or not show all the factors, but I know what the dog did. The only time I have had an issue with someone wanting to take a picture of their sheet was in a Junior test & there were multiple issues to why the dog didn't qualify. At the end of the day, prior to the ribbon ceremony if we decided your dog didn't qualify I will try to seek you out & let you know why so that you aren't standing there waiting for a ribbon & then let down. (I have been there) If people know where they stand in a test it makes things a lot easier.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Doug Main said:


> NO Way!
> 
> I have no problem going over my sheets with an owner/handler and explaining why the dog either passed or failed. That's more than is required and should be plenty.
> 
> ...


So, a team that just titled under you asks for the scoresheet as a memento, and asks you to sign it, you're gonna say no because there is no legitimate reason for them to have it? Classy...


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## whlrking (Aug 20, 2014)

I recently posed this question to Jerry Mann, AKC Field Director, Sporting Breeds, his reply was "The Regulations state that a handler has a right to review his own dog's evaluation sheet. It does not say the handler has a right to photo or otherwise copy the sheet". Mr. Mann continued "I can not imagine why a judge would be reluctant to let a handler have a copy of, photo or otherwise have information off the judge's sheet".


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

Wow, good question, and perfect answer from Doug Main. The judge is only required to show their scribble. Any more than that is at the judges discretion.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

whlrking said:


> I recently posed this question to Jerry Mann, AKC Field Director, Sporting Breeds, his reply was "The Regulations state that a handler has a right to review his own dog's evaluation sheet. It does not say the handler has a right to photo or otherwise copy the sheet". Mr. Mann continued "I can not imagine why a judge would be reluctant to let a handler have a copy of, photo or otherwise have information off the judge's sheet".


His opinion, of course, and not supported by rule book.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Labs said "So, a team that just titled under you asks for the scoresheet as a memento, and asks you to sign it, you're gonna say no because there is no legitimate reason for them to have it? Classy... "

You do of course recall that judges are required to keep the sheets for I believe 90 days was the last ruling. Mine are here a year so a handler can come pick the one that pertains to their dog after that year for a momento. I will be glad to sign and offer more congrats and probably a coffee and conversation for as long as it is cordial. Pee in my coffee cup and things change a lot.


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## Dan Tongen (Nov 19, 2005)

I voted no, talk to me about your scores after the event. 

Dan


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I voted NO but I have made one exception to that. I had a handler come up after a pass and title for a Senior dog. She explained that the owner of the dog was under going treatment for cancer and was having a rough time. She thought it would maybe cheer up her owner to see how well her dog had done. I thought that may be true so instead of giving up the original that I have to keep I made an exact as possible copy for her friend. There is always an exception to every rule and showing a little humanity goes a long way.......


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## fetchtx (May 12, 2005)

NO vote here, remember when at a master in texas a couple years ago wore the camera glasses during running his dog? I dont know how many pages were posted on here after owner posted the film but not sure if that was ever settled. Usually after a series is completed as a judge you get questions as why a certain dog was dropped. I think if test is a good one pass/fail score normally not a difficult decision for judges and MOST handlers know when the team screwed up and don't ask about the details.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I'd say why not, but then I remember how such things end-up in other places, how interpretations are different, how time erodes memory, how every one has an opinion on everything, and things once share via technology can always be found and never disappear . Then I think why in the world would a exceedingly well-paid (cough) AKC judge or HT-FT judge in general would want to open up a can of worms, and have to go on the defensive over any and all of their decisions; perhaps even years later. Talk at the test, ask at the test; all decisions are final; thank you for playing.


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

I vote NO as well. Pandora's Box here. Judging is fun, but it is still hard to find judges. I have had people ask to see their sheets, but never had one ask to take a picture.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

If you ask nicely for a good reason like a momentous most would say yes. The gentleman in question was doing so because he thought the JH test was to hard and was gathering evidence to report the judge to AKC. This person is not viewed kindly within our group. The judge was very even tempered. Just like a dog in a pack there will be one to challange with aggression.


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## Labs4us (Dec 20, 2009)

Jerry Mann's response to the issue that started this was as stated earlier. The handler has the right to review his own evaluations sheet. It doesn't say that they have a right to photo or otherwise copy the sheet. Then he said I can't imagine why a Judge would be reluctant to let the handler have a copy or photo. This was the response that the handler got back from Jerry.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Technically, the evaluation sheets are scores only.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

The judge's score is final, the judge's decisions are final.

If having the sheet is meaningless because it's a bizarre shorthand or narrative in chicken scratches, what is the difference?

If on the other hand the handler is able to see where he and his dog could improve, what is the harm?

If it's on RTF--well... the handler has now told a surprisingly small community "Hey, Everbody! Looka me! I'm a poor sport! I'm really whiney and contrary and can't take my lumps, and I'm prolly posting under an alias, and I'll prolly sell my dog stuff within a couple years so watch the classifieds, nah nah nah so there."

This is my hobby. I'm not scared, and neither should any other judge be scared. I suppose it's potentially a PIA--but so are my dogs, and I love them and wouldn't give them up for the world, and I enjoy judging. When the whole shebang causes enough grief that I start knitting, so be it.

And now, I've gone and asked for it.... *sigh*


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

yellow machine said:


> ...........
> The gentleman in question was doing so because he thought the JH test was to hard and was gathering evidence to report the judge to AKC. This person is not viewed kindly within our group..........


No Fricken Way!?! "GENTLEMAN"? Shirley, you jest 



luvalab said:


> .......If it's on RTF--well... the handler has now told a surprisingly small community "Hey, Everbody! Looka me! I'm a poor sport! I'm really whiney and contrary and can't take my lumps, and I'm prolly posting under an alias, and I'll prolly sell my dog stuff within a couple years so watch the classifieds, nah nah nah so there."......
> And now, I've gone and asked for it.... *sigh*


That is Great!
I Hope the Gentleman in question reads the RTF.


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## dogluvah (Apr 24, 2012)

I vote NO. Discuss your dog's performance with judge after test OK, but judges should not have to produce sheets so absolutely clear and detailed that others can (probably much later) try to compare every minute detail. They are notes so judge can remember each dog, that doesn't mean judge will document same amount of info on every single dog. Each handler currently only allowed to see their own dog's sheet. Pictures start circulating and undue comparisons are going to be made. Enough whiners and complainers, don't give them fuel to start a fire.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

It would totally depend on the attitude of the person approaching me. I have taken screenshots of my judges sheets and emailed them to owners myself, usually when someone I know has a dog that does really well and they were not present to see the test. I doubt many folks can read my heiroglyphics, although "CR" and "WR" are pretty self-explanatory.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

Mr Mann can't see why it would be a problem to photo or copy judges sheets because he does not judge. For those of you who think handlers want to see their sheets to improve their dogs work, please think again. Looking at the sheet and seeing that your dog had poor handles on marks or blinds or that you as a handler did not challenge any blind should not come as a surprise to the handler. Again most know why they failed, they just don't want to admit to themselves what the problems were.

Dawn


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## Labs4us (Dec 20, 2009)

Today I had an 11 year old Junior Handler that ran his dog in the dog's 1st hunt test, they did an great job as a team and passed. The young boy at the end of the test came up at the end of the test before the ribbon's asked myself and my Co-Judge to sign his Catalog. After handing out the ribbon's he asked me to show him his Judges sheet & he asked me what all the number on the sheet meant, I explained it to him and his parents and the parents took pictures of my sheet. In this case there was absolutely no way that I was going to deny them the chance to capture the moment!


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Guys get the rulebook out cause we're gum flapping again. 
: anyone can see their sheet but the judge doesnt have to explain it
: judges sheets are to be kept by the judge for a period of ( is it 60 days are 6 months ) 
: that review is after the test is over 

Partciularly at the ht level with a standerd one generally knows when the poop hits the fan 

Recalling a ht a few years ago where the owner gets on here with a rant about being dropped and how unfair it was. In the end it turned out the handler had picked up but had embellished the story to the stay at home owner. 
Knowing the judge very well we discussed the matter 
And yet its funny and sad at the same time 
Dk


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

To my knowledge there is no time requirement to keep sheets. Although the book says the judges do not need to rationalize scores I think discussing a dogs performance is fine if handler or owner wants to.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

HRC judge is suppose to keep for 1 yrs. AKC I thought is was a few months. Years ago the judges had to turn their sheets in to the HTS and they were sent to AKC.


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## djansma (Aug 26, 2004)

It is not in the rule book yet but it was in the secretary mins
we have to keep sheets for 60 days confirmed it just now with
jerry Mann 
(It will be in the next printing of the rule book)
don't blame me just passing on info
and yes I do read sec mins for this reason
David Jansma


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Haven't read all of the responses, but I think if you want to see the judge's sheet, you should also have to watch a video of yourself running the dog and of all the birds going down on that test. I think few of us realize exactly how things happened while on the line.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Once you start giving out images of your judging sheets, you really have to give them to any one who asks ... including the person likely to edit the image and then post the edited image.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> Once you start giving out images of your judging sheets, you really have to give them to any one who asks ...* including the person likely to edit the image and then post the edited image*.


If that's your opinion of folks running hunt tests...God help us all....


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## fetchtx (May 12, 2005)

such valued things as my scratchin on judge sheets go in old coffee cans under fangs coop, handler wants a pic, go fer it


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

If handlers are permitted to take pics and potentially post them for the world to see, perhaps the same should be extended to the judges whereas they too could take pics of your sheet and post it for the world to see?

Careful what you wish for regards -


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

stonybrook said:


> If handlers are permitted to take pics and potentially post them for the world to see, perhaps the same should be extended to the judges whereas they too could take pics of your sheet and post it for the world to see?
> 
> Careful what you wish for regards -


With the atmosphere in this forum about not throwing judges under the bus by talking about their test set ups and naming names, I'm pretty sure no one would be dumb enough to post up without getting a severe tongue lashing. That being said, maybe a scoresheet pic would humble a handler or two...

No more rose colored glasses regards -


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Labs said:


> .... That being said, maybe a scoresheet pic would humble a handler or two...-


and some RTF Monday morning somebody asking what "DAH" stands for.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Dang amazing hound? No.

Dumb arse handler? Yes


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

If I need a judges score sheet to tell me what I need to work on then I am either not paying attention or am very green.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> and some RTF Monday morning somebody asking what "DAH" stands for.


Where's that "Like" button again?


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## Moose Mtn (May 23, 2013)

If the judges are either available after the test, or via phone call.. I dont see a need to have a copy of the judging sheets. Truthfully, unless we use a more standardized ruberic, the notes and judging sheets are just for the judges use anyhow. Its nice to be able to hear what the judges say about your dog, but I dont see the need to "see" the judging sheet. Hubby has gotten far more info talking to a jude afterwards about what to fix, and what looked good, moreso than anything he would ever be able to interpret off of a judging sheet.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Labs said:


> If that's your opinion of folks running hunt tests...God help us all....


It's my opinion that something like that could happen by a person who is peeved and out of control at the moment.

Mark Edwards and I judged a chap at the Cattle Ranch in Senior. One mark of the double water required the dog to take an angle entry into the water, swim 30 yards, then beach and run at an angle 30 yards up a totally featureless hillside as the memory mark. It wasn't the hardest Senior test ever sutep but it did have some meat to it. His first dog didn't do it. Rather than saying "Shucks" and getting the next dog ready, he argued that it wasn't a water mark.We politely shut off the argument. Thereupon he proceeded to run the 6(?) dogs he had still in the event purposefully around the water and we failed each one. We heard later that he took out his anger on the married couple serving as marshals. That's the kind of chap I'm talking about. Monday morning he may have been the quietest and calmest individual but that Sunday afternoon he was out of control.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> It's my opinion that something like that could happen by a person who is peeved and out of control at the moment.
> 
> Mark Edwards and I judged a chap at the Cattle Ranch in Senior. One mark of the double water required the dog to take an angle entry into the water, swim 30 yards, then beach and run at an angle 30 yards up a totally featureless hillside as the memory mark. It wasn't the hardest Senior test ever sutep but it did have some meat to it. His first dog didn't do it. Rather than saying "Shucks" and getting the next dog ready, he argued that it wasn't a water mark.We politely shut off the argument. Thereupon he proceeded to run the 6(?) dogs he had still in the event purposefully around the water and we failed each one. We heard later that he took out his anger on the married couple serving as marshals. That's the kind of chap I'm talking about. Monday morning he may have been the quietest and calmest individual but that Sunday afternoon he was out of control.


Exactly why I voted NO. With exceptions would not agree. Would quit judging if that was the norm. have other things to do with my life.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

I spend several weekends per year judging . I see some great dogs and handlers. My sheets aren't perfect .I count cast refusals , not whistles.I damn near failed art so don't expect much of a diagram . And between signalling for the birds , making sure marks go down right , the flyer isn't a no bird, working dog and honor dog maintained position , handler didn't intimidate ,guns retired , no one let vehicles thru while the dog is working , the gallery shuts the hell up , the holding blind fell over , the person in the gallery coming over to the marshal to warn of the impending doom on the weather channel app , rebird, lunches , relieve the 70 year old man popping and throwing while the 35 year old men bitch and whine about how things are moving slow, waiting for handlers to come from another portion of the test,water in the holding blind , yelling DOG TO LINE GUNS UP and plant the blind , helping the first time marshal keep things moving , put on my rain gear (guy with the app was right) , take off my rain gear ,replace the broke popper gun with mine from my truck , getting a pick up dog for the no bird which is waddling around out there and Ken Bora to bring me my syrup, do you REALLY want to see my sheet ???  See you on line regards.....


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## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

labs.. having marshalled a few ht in the last 13 or so years mostly master tests and having had to listen to assorted folks inform me that A.the judges are idiots who couldn't set up a good test on a dare or B. thier dog was obviously mistakenly not called back because it made perfect retrieves so the judges need to look at thier sheets again or assorted other reasons why they have been unfairly treated.. yeah sometimes i do have a low opinion of a few ht participants 

ed samples
brentwood tn


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