# Are Chocolates Slower Learners



## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

I am not trying to start a fight, just wanting to know the truth. I was recently told from a trainer that chocolates are slower learners than blacks and yellows. He went on to explain the history about chocolates and the recessive genes. Is there any truth to this claim that chocolates are slower learners than blacks?


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## Mike Sale (Feb 1, 2011)

That is utterly ridiculous ! There was recently a little chocolate female that became the High Point derby dog ( trials for dogs under 2 yrs old ) Of ALL time ! I would say definitely not a slow learner ! Color has nothing to do with anything its just a color. Well except maybe the color silver.... But that's a whole other fight altogether.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

The biggest problem with chocolate is the same as any other dog. The breeders. They only breed for color vs trainability and conformation. If you can find a chocolate with a good breeding he will be a good dog. Silvers are always color as well as white. What a joke. And why akc allows what is obviously crossed with weirmariner I have no idea.


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

Perhaps that trainer has never heard of Ammo? That's NAFTCH FC AFC FTCH AFTCH Upon the Wings of an Answered Prayer, who is also the all-time high-point derby dog. She is a chocolate lab.


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

I was always told that the blondes were the slow ones....


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Clint Watts said:


> I am not trying to start a fight, just wanting to know the truth. I was recently told from a trainer that chocolates are slower learners than blacks and yellows. He went on to explain the history about chocolates and the recessive genes. Is there any truth to this claim that chocolates are slower learners than blacks?


Some of them are. It depends on the breeding and the individual dog.
There is probably a bit of truth to that generalization as to the Labrador population as a whole, due to the fact that there are many Chocos, who may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, that are bred because they are Choco. To a lesser degree the same could be said for yellows. In contrast the black dog gets bred based not so much on color as on ability


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## Marilyn Fender (Sep 3, 2005)

One more voice about chocolates ---note the two in my signature below. There is a chocolate youngster here that I just went for a walk with whose father (frozen semen) is my NFC AFC and mother is sister to Ammo . A couple other litters for my NFC AFC are planned for sometime in 2015 and deposits are already starting. 

The person who passed the wrong information was badly informed from "old-wives-tales". Chocolates are very competitive ---as seen with Ammo in other post.

RE the post above ---there are many blacks that are wonderful and talented and many that can hardly retrieve at all even to JH level. It all depends on the pedigree and the talent of the trainers. There are many more blacks out there than chocolate or yellows since black is a dominant. 

Marilyn

Marilyn J Fender, 
Windstorm Retrievers - Wisconsin and Georgia
Home of 1996 NFC FC AFC Storm’s Riptide Star and birthplace of his chocolate son to QAA who was 2000 CNAFC CFC CAFC Quik Windstorm 
[email protected]


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Marilyn Fender said:


> One more voice about chocolates ---note the two in my signature below. There is a chocolate youngster here that I just went for a walk with whose father (frozen semen) is my NFC AFC and mother is sister to Ammo . A couple other litters for my NFC AFC are planned for sometime in 2015 and deposits are already starting.
> 
> The person who passed the wrong information was badly informed from "old-wives-tales". Chocolates are very competitive ---as seen with Ammo in other post.
> 
> ...


According to AKC the yellows have outnumbered the blacks for the past few decades


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## REBEL RIDGE FARMS (Nov 27, 2010)

I will ask FC/AFC Jinx MH and FC/AFC Tide MH. Chocolates learn the same as all other colors .


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

As with all litters, Breeding makes the difference. Generalizations are somewhat based on a bit of truth and they stick around for generations after they no longer hold value. Chocolate was they last color added into performance lab. They were culled out in the early days. When they were reintroduced they came from show stock and very few had the talent-breeding one would expected to find in black dogs that had been specifically bred for performance for generations. So yes it was hard to find great chocolates and the vast majority were stubborn and slow. Still since then many people have bred them back to field lines and it's getting easier to find normal performance type chocolates. Ammo is forth generation of fc afc choclates, gator points has produced several highly titled chocolate dogs. The breeding has gotten better, the generalization really no longer applies. Still as with any dog any color any breeding research is required to find a pup who is more apt to do the job


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Clint Watts said:


> I am not trying to start a fight, just wanting to know the truth. I was recently told from a trainer that chocolates are slower learners than blacks and yellows. He went on to explain the history about chocolates and the recessive genes. Is there any truth to this claim that chocolates are slower learners than blacks?


Clint, I lived in Bakersfield years ago. They named that town right. It's like living on the sun in the summer time. Tell that guy to stay out of the sun for now on. It has gottent to his brain.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

I read on chocolate ammo and also part chocolate pirate they don seem slow to learn


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't look at the chocolate being a slow learner, I look at us trainers for that.  JMHO


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Nature v Nurture


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

I think Marilyn Fender put it like it is. If you have a good chocolate prospect you need a talented trainer too. It's kind of like the old saying "A poor handler can make a good dog look badly and a good handler can take a mediocre dog and make it look better than it is" same with trainers. There are two kinds of dog trainers those that don't know and those who don't know that they don't know.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Cooper said:


> I think Marilyn Fender put it like it is. If you have a good chocolate prospect you need a talented trainer too. It's kind of like the old saying "A poor handler can make a good dog look badly and a good handler can take a mediocre dog and make it look better than it is" same with trainers. There are two kinds of dog trainers those that don't know and those who don't know that they don't know.


 Touché  
We need to understand that we do, what we know, and rely on what we know. If not, then it it becomes exciting in learning what we do not know.


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

I trained with Ammo when she was a little girl. She was a very slow learner and Bill was even worse, they didn't JAM a derby until she was 6 months old and she didn't win one until she was 9 months old. They did Okay after that. Rick Arnold has put a couple of chocolates on the Derby list and he is the dumbest trainer I know. So chocolates learn very slow and don't forget it. To all you chocolate lovers Happy New Year.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Not all dogs are the same...Show me otherwise, not hearsay.  Especially on the internet.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

OH NO! Why didn't someone tell me. I now have all this time, years, invested in these slow learners. LOL


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

Great replies and thank you. It does sound like there are still folks out there out there that hold on to false beliefs. Thanks so much for confirming my beliefs.


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## jonathon27 (Feb 12, 2012)

Do chocolates dog learn slower? I don't have a good science base answer for that. But I tell you what, I don't if the dog is pink, if it can consistently drag me along to the 4th series I am happy. Go to a trial and look at the break down of the colors of dogs there. 80 - 90% black labs, 5 - 15% yellows, 1-2% goldens, and you might see a chocolate or a chessie on a given weekend. With that being said, I do believe that it is expected to see more "well-bred" black dogs. I've seen some fine chocolates in my day, some that are better than their record shows due to judges also falling to the same stereotype that chocolates are inferior. Marylin's Rascal was a FINE dog I would take a pup out of him anytime regardless of color, because I liked the way he worked with both Marylin and Mike.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Steve Babcock said:


> I trained with Ammo when she was a little girl. She was a very slow learner and Bill was even worse, they didn't JAM a derby until she was 6 months old and she didn't win one until she was 9 months old. They did Okay after that. Rick Arnold has put a couple of chocolates on the Derby list and he is the dumbest trainer I know. So chocolates learn very slow and don't forget it. To all you chocolate lovers Happy New Year.


If JAMming a derby at 6 months, and a win at 9 months is a slow learner, then I sure would like to see what you think fast is.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

freezeland said:


> If JAMming a derby at 6 months, and a win at 9 months is a slow learner, then I sure would like to see what you think fast is.


Speaking of slow learners.....


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Some trainers are slow learners.  

(and maybe a little prejudiced, making it even harder for them to learn)


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Steve Babcock said:


> I trained with Ammo when she was a little girl. She was a very slow learner and Bill was even worse, they didn't JAM a derby until she was 6 months old and she didn't win one until she was 9 months old. They did Okay after that. Rick Arnold has put a couple of chocolates on the Derby list and he is the dumbest trainer I know. So chocolates learn very slow and don't forget it. To all you chocolate lovers Happy New Year.





freezeland said:


> If JAMming a derby at 6 months, and a win at 9 months is a slow learner, then I sure would like to see what you think fast is.


I'm guessing his comments were TIC. ;-)

JS


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

I truly believe that its all about who the pups end up with as trainers and handlers. A good breeding is only like 20% the other 80% is all about the training and exposure. Example, If Ammo didn't end up in the right home that breeding wouldn't of shined like it did. It became a 4 peat breeding because of the right dog going to a true working home. After she showed what she could do serious FT/HT homes bought into the repeated breedings. Now look at the results, Ammo plus several QAAs and countless MHs were produced.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Not totally sure about the 20/80 ratio. A good dog can make a mediocre trainer look pretty good. At least in my case, I think that is how it shook out.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think you have to get a 90-100% dog then do a 90-100% training job and have a little luck too...


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

John Lash said:


> I think you have to get a 90-100% dog then do a 90-100% training job and have a little luck too...


Winner Here folks, the stars must align at the right time.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

mngundog said:


> Speaking of slow learners.....


Evidently so....


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

With a good trainer any pup out of a quality breeding will at least make a Master Hunter status. There really isn't any bad breedings post on RTF or Entry Express. Color has zero to do with the quality of the dog, its the training or lack of training they receive that determines end product.


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Mike Sale said:


> That is utterly ridiculous ! There was recently a little chocolate female that became the High Point derby dog ( trials for dogs under 2 yrs old ) Of ALL time ! I would say definitely not a slow learner ! Color has nothing to do with anything its just a color. Well except maybe the color silver.... But that's a whole other fight altogether.


The little chocolate female high point derby dog was not recent. what's recent to you?

Baited thread. go for it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

A team said:


> The little chocolate female high point derby dog was not recent. what's recent to you?
> 
> Baited thread. go for it.



NAFTCH FC AFC FTCH AFTCH Upon the Wings of an Answered Prayer (that little derby dog, currently competing pretty successfully) isn't recent enough for you?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

A team said:


> The little chocolate female high point derby dog was not recent. what's recent to you?
> 
> Baited thread. go for it.


 It’s sad that you think it is a baited thread. I honestly believe there are no hidden agendas here. I would like to think that the folks on RTF have an agenda and that is to help those achieve what we have already or at least aid them in their goals. JMHO


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Yep Ammo is a great dog ,one in a million for sure, BUT even with her success there aren't many hard core FT folks that would pick a brown puppy over a black or yellow puppy from the same litter, seems to be ALOT more choco dogs in the HT Game... Put one down in Oct. not sure if I will ever have another one, tough to find a litter I really like, unless there from black choco factored..


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

The chocolate FC AFC MH sleeping at my feet says your trainer is the slow learner. Actually I paraphrased. Roux's language could not be repeated. &#55357;&#56836;


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

What about all the retrievers out there that are great hunting companions that might had a potential to be great in the games. We can't pigeon hole a lab base on color. That...makes us ignorant and that in itself hinders what we are about. Food for thought.


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

Yellows out numbered blacks in what popularity I missed something ?I would like to mention, to mention PIE (God Bless you Cleo) Barracuda Blue, Cuda's Blue Ryder, both Roux's Tick ,IMO Pachanga Manga the most beautiful I think I ever seen and I feel was the start to Chocolates making the Grade, and Ben who I was fortunate enough to breed to twice. I missed to mention Howdy(Black) who thru a ton of wonderful choc pups. But I still love my BLACK dogs to each his own We schouldn't criticize any of them at times I think there smarter than us and leave us way tooo soon.


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Do the math, take away personal preferences. 

Look at the nationals both amateurs and nationals, just look at the qualifiers. 

How many blacks compared to yellows compared to chocolates. 

alwys an exception to the rule.

Hey I root for the underdog but I know they're the underdog.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

36 - Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to the Roux gang 

Happy to report Grace (Roux x Lounell) is mended and back to her work 
It's gonna be good 
Dk


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

A team said:


> Do the math, take away personal preferences.
> 
> Look at the nationals both amateurs and nationals, just look at the qualifiers.
> 
> ...


Understand by whose standards...to those who have blinds on or by those who venture in getting into the games. I find that keeping an open mind makes us sleep better at night ready for the next day. 
Train on.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Competitive retrievers are a product of their environment. You can't base chocolates being slower learners because most FTers choose to put black dogs with the top trainers across the nation. HAHA, A Team you funny guy!!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

A team said:


> Do the math, take away personal preferences.
> 
> Look at the nationals both amateurs and nationals, just look at the qualifiers.
> 
> ...


How about looking at it from a less biased viewpoint? If you were to figure the number of chocolates (or yellow or Chessie or Golden, etc.) running field trials and then figure the placement percentages of each compared to black, I'd wager things would look a bit different and pretty close to the same.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

40 or so years ago it was said of yellows the same thing. Always take a yellow from two blacks otherwise they will be " a little light in the loafers", or in plain English "dumb". I thought the same way, man was I wrong there are so many great ones can't count them anymore. Even today one doesn't even know that the dog is yellow until it is physically seen. Started to see more chocolates in the 1980's in field trials and the same was said about them, "dumber then a bag of rocks" . Then a dog named Rascal came along and I had to compete with him and many times we went to the last series in the all-age, think he won the National Open, LOL. Ms Fender frequents RTF and his son did wonders at the National level with our Northern neighbors. It goes on and on to 2014 with some outstanding dogs that happen to be chocolate Labs. Who knows about the next color, silver (naw only kidding) . It's all about the dogs and what's behind them in my opinion. If it is a well bred litter, pick a gender, then decide your preference based on color and/or performance.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Criquetpas said:


> 40 or so years ago it was said of yellows the same thing. Always take a yellow from two blacks otherwise they will be " a little light in the loafers", or in plain English "dumb". I thought the same way, man was I wrong there are so many great ones can't count them anymore. Even today one doesn't even know that the dog is yellow until it is physically seen. Started to see more chocolates in the 1980's in field trials and the same was said about them, "dumber then a bag of rocks" . Then a dog named Rascal came along and I had to compete with him and many times we went to the last series in the all-age, think he won the National Open, LOL. Ms Fender frequents RTF and his son did wonders at the National level with our Northern neighbors. It goes on and on to 2014 with some outstanding dogs that happen to be chocolate Labs. Who knows about the next color, silver (naw only kidding) . It's all about the dogs and what's behind them in my opinion. If it is a well bred litter, pick a gender, then decide your preference based on color and/or performance.


My deepest respect, Earl.


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## TRUEBLUE (Aug 27, 2007)

It's nice to see more competitive chocolates coming along in the game. There are some great chocolate breedings being done . I would not hesitate to buy from a quality breeding, if you want a chocolate. 
Train your dog, and have fun. The dog doesn't know, or care what color it is.
On a personal note: 
Congratulations to Bill & Micki on Ammo's accomplishment of being Histories All Time High Point All-Age Dog in a single season with 96 points, 2014 High Point Amatuer dog with 55.5 points, and 2014 CNAFC !!!! Bill and Ammo also had 4- double header wins in 2014. I think that is a record as well.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

What I see with chocolate is aggressiveness, to the point that I've had to squeeze one between a gate and a fence just to give it a rabies vaccination.

However, since I deal with pet bred Labs, I know this is an issue of breeders going for color rather than the whole package and puppy buyers that look just for color.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

What you see consistently in *competitive* chocolates is well bred dogs with good trainers.


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## Fon (Oct 8, 2010)

I wish someone would do this and post the percentages, along with numbers, and the years.


Sharon Potter said:


> How about looking at it from a less biased viewpoint? If you were to figure the number of chocolates (or yellow or Chessie or Golden, etc.) running field trials and then figure the placement percentages of each compared to black, I'd wager things would look a bit different and pretty close to the same.


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## Glenn Norton (Oct 23, 2011)

*Chocolate*



Fon said:


> I wish someone would do this and post the percentages, along with numbers, and the years.


Soon, someone will say Chessies are slow learners


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Criquetpas said:


> 40 or so years ago it was said of yellows the same thing. Always take a yellow from two blacks otherwise they will be " a little light in the loafers", or in plain English "dumb". I thought the same way, man was I wrong there are so many great ones can't count them anymore. Even today one doesn't even know that the dog is yellow until it is physically seen. Started to see more chocolates in the 1980's in field trials and the same was said about them, "dumber then a bag of rocks" . Then a dog named Rascal came along and I had to compete with him and many times we went to the last series in the all-age, think he won the National Open, LOL. Ms Fender frequents RTF and his son did wonders at the National level with our Northern neighbors. It goes on and on to 2014 with some outstanding dogs that happen to be chocolate Labs. Who knows about the next color, silver (naw only kidding) . It's all about the dogs and what's behind them in my opinion. If it is a well bred litter, pick a gender, then decide your preference based on color and/or performance.


If you look at what your trainer said closely. It is much like this.

The more the gene pool widens and good dogs are producing good litters. The more you will see chocolates in the winners circle. That being said, I still feel like, if you don't get a pup out of a high end breeding kennel.( Field trial lines) I would like to see a black with a chocolate on top parents. 

The pup you get is going to be the least amount of money you are going to spend, no matter how much they cost.

Choose wisely.

Keith


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

John, Walker has a twin in Deuce, we have no titles at 6 years old but we have been a terrific pal family pet, gundog and had a (black mommy) out of a litter I think you said you would have liked to have had a pup. He turns heads and wants to here his favorite songs ( CURTIS LO and Gimme Back My Bullets) really loud can't blame him. Just want everybody to know I'm not profiling as I do love my black dogs but have had 3 beautiful wonderful chocolates. One that was cremated and a BF that will go with me when time comes


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

WBF said:


> I truly believe that its all about who the pups end up with as trainers and handlers. A good breeding is only like 20% the other 80% is all about the training and exposure. Example, If Ammo didn't end up in the right home that breeding wouldn't of shined like it did. It became a 4 peat breeding because of the right dog going to a true working home. After she showed what she could do serious FT/HT homes bought into the repeated breedings. Now look at the results, Ammo plus several QAAs and countless MHs were produced.


IMO, it's 80% dog & 20% training, or something close to that ratio.


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## Fon (Oct 8, 2010)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> IMO, it's 80% dog & 20% training, or something close to that ratio.


WBF's response and yours Jacob go back to the nature vs nurture argument also called genetics vs environment. The plain old truth of the matter is that intelligence alone will never guarantee success. You must have a nurturing environment, which would be the training part. This applies just as much to humans and whether they are given the opportunities to excel, but with people, there are alot more variables involved. For dogs, IMO there's just no way it's 80% dog when we know an excellent trainer can always make a fair dog(genetics) look good (environment).


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Fon said:


> WBF's response and yours Jacob go back to the nature vs nurture argument also called genetics vs environment. The plain old truth of the matter is that intelligence alone will never guarantee success. You must have a nurturing environment, which would be the training part. This applies just as much to humans and whether they are given the opportunities to excel, but with people, there are alot more variables involved. For dogs, IMO there's just no way it's 80% dog when we know an excellent trainer can always make a fair dog(genetics) look good (environment).


I'm on the side of it's mostly dog, with good training bringing out the best. Otherwise we'd all just go buy some byb junk and put them with A-list pros and they'd all get FC AFC. Doubtful many would even get to Qual level. If it's mostly training, then why so many washouts from very good trainers, both pro and am, with plenty of resources. It takes a special dog with all the right stuff to make it to the top.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Good trainers will bring out the best in any dog, but, that "best" may not be much. Maybe will be an adequate gundog for a weekend warrior, maybe have excellent manners and wonderful obedience, maybe will run beautiful blinds, but doesn't have the talent to mark a triple or the brains to problem solve, or the drive/desire and ability to work with the handler, and without talent and brains and willingness to work, dogs aren't going to be successful in competition, I don't care if they are with Danny Farmer or Mike Lardy, the dog has to have the right stuff inside it or all the training in the world is meaningless.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

We all know that there are special animals out there but if they never make it to the right homes they will never be seen. There are countless Lean Mac potential retrievers digging holes in backyards across the nation. With the genetics and gene pools today there really isn't a horrible breeding out there. I don't know if the IP was really asking his trainer about the quality of a chocolate becoming a FC AFC CFC or just simply wanting a nice hunting or HT dog that can handle on blinds. There are better breedings than others but nothing out there on EE or RTF that a good trainer can't put a MH on with time. All dogs have to be trained.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

The litters advertised on EE and RTF are representative of a very small percentage of Labrador breedings, and are mostly from field pedigrees within at least a couple of generations, on at least one side. Plus add in generations of health clearances. The odds are already stacked. But take a bunch of Labs from pedigrees with zero field titles within 5 generations, put them with good trainers, and I'd be bet a lot that many won't make even MH very quickly or easily. Maybe with a lot of time and judge-chasing, but, not from what I've seen weekend after weekend for plenty of years. You have to have something to work with in the first place. I don't believe a good trainer can make any dog a MH, and if you want to move up the ladder, odds get smaller. Now hunting dog, obviously odds are better but even then, not every retriever has the eyes, nose or instinct to hunt & retrieve anymore, far too many have been bred indiscriminately. So I believe it starts with what the dog is born with and enhanced or detracted from there.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

how do you search for records of which color wins more? i used to like choco dogs and thought about it but some people here I read in searches say black only


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## gib (Sep 5, 2006)

I have a chocolate that has been pretty darned successful and nothing he does is slow...including thinking and learning! SRSC HRCH Spring River's Yankee Captain MNH QAA...Jeter has never a failed a Master Hunt test nor Finished Hunt test (28-28) plus two Master Nationals. I wish he would slow down a little!


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

gib said:


> I have a chocolate that has been pretty darned successful and nothing he does is slow...including thinking and learning! SRSC HRCH Spring River's Yankee Captain MNH QAA...Jeter has never a failed a Master Hunt test nor Finished Hunt test (28-28) plus two Master Nationals. I wish he would slow down a little!


Mike not bad for a dog that went to a home with very little experience lol. Haha great dog and trainer/handler.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

I wasn't going to comment. But I haven't seen yet, what I'm going to say so here goes.
I am thinking the trainer mentioned, probably was being sort of "PC" in the description "slower learners". A large percentage of the chocolates that gundog trainers get in, are not well bred, mind and body considered .Rather, they're byb dogs.The bulk of the chocs that come in here for training, are these. Many are not willing, cooperative or care to learn . That could be referred to as "slower learners" said to not offend. I've trained some wonderful chocolates. Many though are like the ones I described. The dogs we speak of are, bred right- for work ethic,trainability , talent and soundness. There's a huge dufference!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Billie said:


> I wasn't going to comment. But I haven't seen yet, what I'm going to say so here goes.
> I am thinking the trainer mentioned, probably was being sort of "PC" in the description "slower learners". A large percentage of the chocolates that gundog trainers get in, are not well bred, mind and body considered .Rather, they're byb dogs.The bulk of the chocs that come in here for training, are these. Many are not willing, cooperative or care to learn . That could be referred to as "slower learners" said to not offend. I've trained some wonderful chocolates. Many though are like the ones I described. The dogs we speak of are, bred right- for work ethic,trainability , talent and soundness. There's a huge dufference!


So..should we blame that on the dogs or blame that on dog owners that don't know any better and have high hopes? 
Edit: And what will we say?


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Its not a matter of blaming anyone. I'm just saying where I think the trainer mentioned is coming from.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

WBF said:


> With a good trainer any pup out of a quality breeding will at least make a Master Hunter status. There really isn't any bad breedings post on RTF or Entry Express. Color has zero to do with the quality of the dog, its the training or lack of training they receive that determines end product.


Sorry, but I think you're a bit off base here. IMHO, a good trainer can't make a MH out of a dog that can't mark and doesn't have a high intelligence level (those 2 things come from the breeding btw). Even if you have a great breeding, there is still the chance you will get a dog that doesn't know up from down. I'm with the others on this one- the stars have to align for it all to work out. You at least stack the odds in your favor when you pick a good breeding before you pick a good trainer....


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

From the standpoint of someone who teaches basic obedience to all breeds, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that generalizations are dangerous, not only for colors within a breed but for breeds themselves. Each dog is individual, and while there may be a few common traits that exist among a population of dogs, there will always be exceptions. This is anecdotal evidence but seems to be the case so I always say something like "Yes, the breed is known for that trait but you may or may not see it in your individual dog". 

It makes sense to me that selective breeding for color as a primary consideration (vs. health and performance) could cause some problems and possibly create a stereotype. That said... they were pretty much all black at some point in the lineage LOL.

A lot of retriever people hold that belief however, so it can't be completely unfounded, regardless of the examples sited earlier. 

Let's not let our emotions drive what is really a scientific discussion.

No two are created equal regardless of color.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Jamee Strange said:


> Sorry, but I think you're a bit off base here. IMHO, a good trainer can't make a MH out of a dog that can't mark and doesn't have a high intelligence level (those 2 things come from the breeding btw). Even if you have a great breeding, there is still the chance you will get a dog that doesn't know up from down. I'm with the others on this one- the stars have to align for it all to work out. You at least stack the odds in your favor when you pick a good breeding before you pick a good trainer....


Ok, I do believe that we were talking about Ammo, Rascal, and Roux during the stars aligning conversation not MH status dogs. Sorry lets not over exaggerate what it takes it get a dog to a Master level or at least be able to go run one. Do I believe each dog has its own issues of course I do but I strongly believe that most issues arise from the environment in which the dog was brought up in. Its hard to find a bad breeding today regardless of color. Pick a breeding and train the hand your dealt. Hope it's not vocal but hope it wants to break!


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## gib (Sep 5, 2006)

1 - Spend a lot of time researching and doing your homework in the breeding and you'll be getting a puppy that gives you a chance, regardless of color. 2 - What one does with this chance is up to you...there are no shortcuts! 3 - Your either going to spend a lot time or a lot of money or both to get the most out of your little one...regardless of color. Good chocolates are much harder to come by, but they are out there (see items 1-2-3 above).


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Billie said:


> I wasn't going to comment. But I haven't seen yet, what I'm going to say so here goes.
> I am thinking the trainer mentioned, probably was being sort of "PC" in the description "slower learners". A large percentage of the chocolates that gundog trainers get in, are not well bred, mind and body considered .Rather, they're byb dogs.The bulk of the chocs that come in here for training, are these. Many are not willing, cooperative or care to learn . That could be referred to as "slower learners" said to not offend. I've trained some wonderful chocolates. Many though are like the ones I described. The dogs we speak of are, bred right- for work ethic,trainability , talent and soundness. There's a huge dufference!


I hear this from gun dog trainers about all breeds and colors.


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## Fon (Oct 8, 2010)

3 qualities a dog must have to succeed in ht game: retrieving desire, love of water, and no issues with gun rapport. Lotsa "newspaper" dogs can succeed with these qualities. We who do these postings tho, want a lot more than this. If you want to push yourself and your dog to limits, challenge yourself and the dog every step of the way, then, of course a well bred dog is only way to strengthen the percentages to do that.


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

WBF said:


> Ok, I do believe that we were talking about Ammo, Rascal, and Roux during the stars aligning conversation not MH status dogs. Sorry lets not over exaggerate what it takes it get a dog to a Master level or at least be able to go run one. Do I believe each dog has its own issues of course I do but I strongly believe that most issues arise from the environment in which the dog was brought up in. Its hard to find a bad breeding today regardless of color. Pick a breeding and train the hand your dealt. Hope it's not vocal but hope it wants to break!


Have to disagree on a couple statements, at least from my view. Getting a pup to the master level and titling are two different endeavors . Not all dogs are able. And, in my opinion, there are many, many bad breeding out there. Watch a big junior test.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

This was a troll end-of-the-year plant question? Right? Let us not forget Charlie Tyson's Barracuda dogs- AFC-FC-CAFC-CFC-MH - Blue and Ryder (Dad/Son) and Mike Judas' Trip!
Lastly, let us reverse this question and ask how many black dogs wash out? To be fair , how many yellows? Look @ your siblings and your own off-spring and you will be able to measure a great deal of difference. Genetic inheritance of health, ability and behavior varies amongst siblings of all kinds. As others and I have stated here before , to breed for any color w/o consideration of other issues is fools gold.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I'd say a buyer that selects a pup based on it's color, ties their hands just as much as a Breeder that selects a Stud based on it's color.

What percentage of performance bred puppies do you have to select against, in order to get one that's the color you want?

What percentage of performance titled Studs do you have to select against, in order to get one that will produce the color that you want?

If you select for color, you are also selecting against things that actually are important. 
Whether you are the buyer, or the Breeder, selecting for color severely limits your odds of success.

So, if you truly don't care about color, and only select based on traits that affect performance, what percentage of the puppies that you own throughout your life, will be black?


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

John Condon said:


> Have to disagree on a couple statements, at least from my view. Getting a pup to the master level and titling are two different endeavors . Not all dogs are able. And, in my opinion, there are many, many bad breeding out there. Watch a big junior test.


Big Junior, I'll make sure to be watching.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

T.Bond said:


> how do you search for records of which color wins more? i used to like choco dogs and thought about it but some people here I read in searches say black only


 I've never found any such database.

However, huntinglabpedigree does allow for color and title as options in the search query.

huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=SHR
huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=JH
huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=HRCH
huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=MH
huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=FC
huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=AFC
huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=NFC
huntinglabpedigree.com/titlecolor.asp?tcol=NAFC


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Sorry Copterdoc but huntinglabpedigree is incorrect/incomplete. Two of my dogs, both chocolate , both males , both sired by Ace's High III w/different mothers , w/MH titles and QAA not listed(10 years apart).. They are in gooddoginfo.com including pedigrees, health clearances, siblings, etc.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

swliszka said:


> Sorry Copterdoc but huntinglabpedigree is incorrect/incomplete....


 I agree.
However, the "incompleteness" is random across the board.

And the sheer difference in numbers, is still just as staggering.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

WBF said:


> I truly believe that its all about who the pups end up with as trainers and handlers. A good breeding is only like 20% the other 80% is all about the training and exposure. Example, If Ammo didn't end up in the right home that breeding wouldn't of shined like it did. It became a 4 peat breeding because of the right dog going to a true working home. After she showed what she could do serious FT/HT homes bought into the repeated breedings. Now look at the results, Ammo plus several QAAs and countless MHs were produced.


Can't believe you forgot one GRAND dog also, buddy.

Colby will bite you later


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> I've never found any such database.
> 
> However, huntinglabpedigree does allow for color and title as options in the search query.
> 
> ...


Anyone have a perspective (data) on the distribution of color within the games, over time, I guess? 

Looking at NFC and NAFC titles tells a story but it would be dependent on the number of each color dog playing the game, which has definitely evolved over time to include less black and more yellow/chocolate (as a percentage).


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> Anyone have a perspective (data) on the distribution of color within the games, over time, I guess?


 Within the games? No.

A cross section of the entire breed, (OFA tested Labrador Retrievers), provides some percentage data. At least up until 2008.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

copterdoc said:


> Within the games? No.
> 
> A cross section of the entire breed, (OFA tested Labrador Retrievers), provides some percentage data. At least up until 2008.


Compare these charts to a chart of the number of FC-AFC dogs and you will understand why the trainer refers to Chocolates {as a group} as slow learners.
Their are obviously many exceptional individual Chocolates including Ammo, Rascal etc.

I


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Do these charts differentiate between FT , HT and Confirmation/Show populations? Look to the Canadian pedigrees where you find more chocolates who were brought from the UK. Thirdly, the blacks dominate and form the basis of the gene pool so it is quite clear why they would thru breeding/sale/campaigning dominate. The yellows started post WWII , and especially 1960s forward. The chocolates , late 70s forwards.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

swliszka said:


> .....Look to the Canadian pedigrees where you find more chocolates who were brought from the UK.....


 I'm pretty sure that black dominates in the field across the pond, even more so than it does over here.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

swliszka said:


> ....Thirdly, the blacks dominate and form the basis of the gene pool......


 I do not agree. There is no evidence to that effect.

Unless you are only looking at performance oriented pedigrees. 
In _that_ tiny slice of the "Labrador Retriever Pie", I'd say yes there does seem to be plenty of evidence. 

The majority of the dogs those pedigrees produce, are in fact, black.
By a very wide margin.

It's probably not that "black dogs are better", just because they are black. That doesn't make sense.
It's probably a case that the pedigrees that usually produce the better performing dogs, also just happen to produce mostly black ones. And they always will.

Because, you can't increase or decrease the carrier rate of any Recessive Trait within a population, without deliberately selecting for, or against, that specific trait. If you just ignore it, the frequency with which it will be expressed, will remain the same in subsequent generations.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

copterdoc said:


> Because, you can't increase or decrease the carrier rate of any Recessive Trait within a population, without deliberately selecting for, or against, that specific trait. If you just ignore it, the frequency with which it will be expressed, will remain the same in subsequent generations.


More truth in that statement than the chocolate lovers will like


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

So based on color what color dog dominates the registration numbers in the AKC or CKC? Black.Black FT dogs dominate by sheer numbers , the running dogs, historic and current. No mountains out of molehills here. Selective breeding and selection to campaign the other two (Y @ C) is either deliberate or by a willingness to take a "chance." I do not have the time to check current HT entries, but I suspect based on this website there is a greater willingness on southern (south of the Mason-Dixon line) HT contestants to breed/purchase/campaign chocolate HT dogs.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

swliszka said:


> So based on color what color dog dominates the registration numbers in the AKC or CKC? Black.


 I'm pretty sure that's not an accurate answer to your own question. Most Labs are in fact yellow. 
Not black.



swliszka said:


> Black FT dogs dominate by sheer numbers , the running dogs, historic and current.....


 I'm pretty sure that is an accurate statement. 

And if you truly don't care about color; if you can _really_ and _honestly_ say that "color doesn't matter, as long as you pick a good breeding.", then most of the Labs that you own throughout your life, are also going to be black ones. By a very wide margin.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

You are telling us that more yellows are registered in the AKC yearly than blacks? If , so , where do you find that?

Yes , I agree if color does not matter the opportunities for black dog ownership are greatest. I owned one well bred black bitch until 10 months old , had retinal folds and retinal dysplasia , her littermates were all clean.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

swliszka said:


> You are telling us that more yellows are registered in the AKC yearly than blacks? If , so , where do you find that?
> 
> Yes , I agree if color does not matter the opportunities for black dog ownership are greatest. I owned one well bred black bitch until 10 months old , had retinal folds and retinal dysplasia , her littermates were all clean.


Yes, see some of the charts at the post on top of this page or check with AKC. 
Beware the facts will disprove much of you want to believe!!!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

swliszka said:


> You are telling us that more yellows are registered in the AKC yearly than blacks? If , so , where do you find that?


 I already posted the charts.

The pie chart shows OFA stats from 1996 through 2008.
The bar graphs show registration data from 1870 through 2002.

Here is the database. http://labradornet.com/labstats.html


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you for that posting. However, I am only concerned w/ USA-Canadian breeding/registrations. The charts reflect pre-2008 international registrations/numbers. It appears by a small margin your yellow position on the international level is correct.

My major interest in this thread is to emphasize nothing new , but to reiterate that selective breeding can bring selective rewards and if too selective , problems. I think we agree. We started w/a closed dog registry , coupled w/the great stud dog syndrome, and now are aided by micro-chipping/DNA to confirm genetic strengths and lines - we should all do better as Vanderwyck urges.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

I understand the statement about not breeding just for color. My question is concerning Dudleys, that is breeding to PREVENT certain color combinations. What is the opinions concerning performance dogs when it comes to Dudleys and would this not restrict the gene pool and limit the number of Chocolates one would normally see? Not trying to start a fight but just wondering.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

swliszka said:


> Thank you for that posting. However, I am only concerned w/ USA-Canadian breeding/registrations.....


 I don't think that you'd like that very much. My guess is that you wouldn't find the results very flattering.

It is us; as in the U.S.A., that intentionally selects for the "rare" colors for no other reason. 
Thus increasing the carrier rate for such traits, within non-performance pedigrees.

That's an American disease.


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

Quick question ( I'm Fat Ugly and White does that make me a Better or a worse trainer than say a Skinny Handsome Yeller Man or say a Well rounded Descent looking Chocolate Man, PLAIN and simple color preference is in the mind of the Person buying the dog, Smart comes from the pedigree of the Dog no matter what color, there all gonna have their quirks it's up to us to do right by the dog no matter the color. Most of us on here make complete sense of these topics we discuss (not always me) and some are on here to judge something because it's not what they like, It's quite apparent by their little smarta?? jabs. I prefer Black dogs in 35 years I've owned 3 chocolates and 1 yeller and 7 blacks loved them all! It's funny how some have gotten so smart in such a short time in some examples. Leave the dogs and there owners alone and talk some sense especially when it come to something as wonderful as a LABRADOR RETRIEVER or any other Breed that might not tickle your FANCY !!!!!!!!!!!!! IMFO


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

P.S. Don't want to get any rumors started, just Fat White and Ugly not a trainer.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

I guess what needs to be said has been said but I can't help myself... I have had chocolates out of River Oaks Way Da Go Rocky, Storm's Riptide Star, Gator pn't Magnum Gentle Ben, Nandool Elwood Blues, Nandool Irish Blues and have not seen a dumb one. Many of the chocolates I raised are working as service dogs for the disabled. They are using them mostly as diabetic alert dogs because they have the motivations and bond strongly to their person. The very first dog I ever gave them the trainer called me to tell me she was the easiest and smartest dog she has ever had the pleasure of training. Many are also master hunters and even an AFC. I got a call from a search and rescue who saw a chocolate from my lines working and it impressed him so much he gave me a call. They are what they are bred to be. Most of the field trial chocolates these days are all related so it is unlikely you will find a dumb one.


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

Bayou Magic said:


> The chocolate FC AFC MH sleeping at my feet says your trainer is the slow learner. Actually I paraphrased. Roux's language could not be repeated. &#55357;&#56836;


You nailed it on the head, I did some research and ended up changing trainers. Been with the new trainer for around a month and things are much better. He had to be re-force fetched and collar conditioned and the trainer says he has talent.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Clint Watts said:


> You nailed it on the head, I did some research and ended up changing trainers. Been with the new trainer for around a month and things are much better. He had to be re-force fetched and collar conditioned and the trainer says he has talent.



Good for you and your dog !!!


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