# The Case for Dewclaws



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Do the Dew(claws)?
M. Christine Zink DVM, PhD, DACVSMR
I am a vet that works exclusively with performance dogs, developing rehabilitation programs for injured dogs or dogs that have had surgery as a result of performance-related injuries. I have seen many dogs now, especially field trial/hunt test and agility dogs, that have had chronic carpal arthritis, frequently so severe that they have to be retired or at least carefully managed for the rest of their careers. Of the over 30 dogs I have seen with carpal arthritis, only one has had dewclaws. The others have all had them removed.
If you look at an anatomy book (Miller’s Guide to the Anatomy of Dogs is an excellent one – see figure below) you will see that there are 5 tendons attached to the dewclaw. Of course, at the other end of a tendon is a muscle, and that means that if you cut off the dew claws, there are 5 muscle bundles that will become atrophied from disuse.
Those muscles indicate that the dewclaws have a function. That function is to prevent torque on the leg. Each time the foot lands on the ground, particularly when the dog is cantering or galloping, the dewclaw is in touch with the ground. If the dog then needs to turn, the dewclaw digs into the ground to support the lower leg and prevent torque. If the dog doesn’t have a dewclaw, the leg twists. A lifetime of that and the result can be carpal arthritis. Remember: the dog is doing the activity regardless, and the pressures on the leg have to go somewhere. They can be absorbed by the dewclaw, or they will move up and down the leg to the toes, carpus, elbow, and shoulders.
Perhaps you are thinking, “I never have had one of my dogs have carpal pain or arthritis.” Well, we need to remember that dogs, by their very nature, do not tell us about mild to moderate pain. If a dog was to be asked by an emergency room nurse to give the level of his pain on a scale from 0 o 10, with 10 being the worst, their scale would be 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Most of our dogs, especially if they deal with pain that is of gradual onset, just deal with it and don’t complain unless it is excruciating. But when I palpate the carpal joints of older dogs without dewclaws, I almost always elicit pain with relatively minimal manipulation.
As to the possibility of injuries to dew claws. Most veterinarians will say that such injuries actually are not very common at all. And if they do occur, then they are dealt with like any other injury. In my opinion, it is far better to deal with an injury than to cut the dew claws off of all dogs “just in case.”
Anatomical diagram viewing the medial side of a dog’s left front leg demonstrating the five tendons that attach to the dewclaw.
— from Miller’s Guide to the Dissection of the Dog


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Having had a dog suffer a near career ending carpal hyperextension injury I am a recent convert to leave the dewclaw theory. If the ligamentous attachments provide additional carpal joint stability the risk of leaving them on is small the rewards of leaving them on is enormous. Removal is more cosmetic than practical.


----------



## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Thanks for posting this Doc very informative.


----------



## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

I've been debating this issue with myself for a long time. I trust your opinion, Dr. Ed. I've now decided.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> Having had a dog suffer a near career ending carpal hyperextension injury I am a recent convert to leave the dewclaw theory. If the ligamentous attachments provide additional carpal joint stability the risk of leaving them on is small the rewards of leaving them on is enormous. Removal is more cosmetic than practical.


I hope lots of breeders in the US follow suit. Front foot dew claws are important for most breeds (loose front and rear dew claws should be removed).


----------



## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I removed them in the litters I produced and the three puppies I bought had them removed. None have had any soundness issues. My most recent dog has her dew claws. They are a lot more moveable and she uses them more than I expected. She grasps and holds things with them and she presses it against things holds herself up. I would not hesitate to buy a puppy with them left on. I am not sure what I will do with my next litter as buyers seem to still want them removed.


----------



## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Great information! Thanks DR. ED


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Here is an attempt to repost the image Doctor Ed had uploaded to see if it is zoomable and readable. I could not get it to show so asked Ed to forward and let me try.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> I removed them in the litters I produced and the three puppies I bought had them removed. None have had any soundness issues. My most recent dog has her dew claws. They are a lot more moveable and she uses them more than I expected. She grasps and holds things with them and she presses it against things holds herself up. I would not hesitate to buy a puppy with them left on. I am not sure what I will do with my next litter as buyers seem to still want them removed.


my HOF Percy, Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit had dewclaws and it was never a problem. If my memory is correct in 50 years as a veterinarian I have never seen a serious issue with Declaws. In that same time I have seen at least 15 hyperextension carpal injuries all career ending except one which kept her out of competition for almost two years. It is the worst and most career threatening injury for a working dog. Would having dewclaws prevented or diminished the severity of the injuries one can only speculate. I have never been comfortable with amputating a digit in a 3 to 5 day old puppy without benefit of anesthesia. What a terrible introduction to veterinary medicine for a dog.


----------



## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I expect to get complaints when I don't remove the dew claws of my up-coming litter, but I'll take Ed's advice.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Keith Stroyan said:


> I expect to get complaints when I don't remove the dew claws of my up-coming litter, but I'll take Ed's advice.


I have come to view the appearance as pleasing as well as utilitarian. My 7 month old Tubb X Scally has them and I like the look.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Tobias said:


> I hope lots of breeders in the US follow suit. Front foot dew claws are important for most breeds (loose front and rear dew claws should be removed).


Why? We have a rescue collie mix with loose dew claws and our vet said there was no reason to have them removed.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

EdA said:


> I have come to view the appearance as pleasing as well as utilitarian. My 7 month old Tubb X Scally has them and I like the look.


My recent pup, almost 2 now has his, only on front paws. I don't even notice they are there.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

rboudet said:


> My recent pup, almost 2 now has his, only on front paws. I don't even notice they are there.


I should have added as well that the dewclaw non removal applies to the front but I have never seen rear dewclaws on a purebred Labrador.


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

The problem is lack of education I think. A breeder friend of mine and I have considered keeping them on pups, but the blowback from potential puppy buyers is significant.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> The problem is lack of education I think. A breeder friend of mine and I have considered keeping them on pups, but the blowback from potential puppy buyers is significant.


Tell them to research carpal hyperextension injury and they might change their mind. I cannot imagine shying away from a breeding I liked because the puppy had all the parts it was born with.


----------



## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

EdA said:


> Tell them to research carpal hyperextension injury and they might change their mind. I cannot imagine shying away from a breeding I liked because the puppy had all the parts it was born with.


This just make sense, and is sort of embarrassing in the fact that I have for decades accepted the removal of a body part. I did this blindly without doing any research or asking any intelligent germane questions. In the back of my mind I always felt that nature must have put them there for a reason, but I was too lazy to question the accepted custom.

It may be rash but I find this short article to be compelling evidence, and unless I see some countering research equally compelling, I am a convert who will no longer have a pup with dews removed.

At a time when I thought RTF was a dinosaur good only for amusement this is one of the best pieces of info I have ever gotten here

I can't thank you enough Ed, for bringing this to light.


----------



## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

It will save my wife some heartache in the future as well. She took a litter of 13 for dew removal at 3 days. Their screeching and the pile of 26 toes about did her in.


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

I have not removed declaws in 15 years. I’ve never had an issue with them. When selling litters, I educate the buyers. If they prefer to go elsewhere for a pup? That’s fine with me. NOW, ask me how many de gloved front toenails I’ve had? And I dremel nails weekly. Dogs are just dogs and idiots at times. 🤦‍♀️


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Blowback from puppy buyers has been non existent for me, except for one couple whose vet got them worked up about it at pup's first exam. I don't care if they are on or not when I buy a pup, I simply have chosen to not put myself or my puppies through the process anymore.


----------



## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

After speaking to Ed, Dr Appel and my Sports Medicine vet, Dr Baker, I am leaving the dew claws on my litter of Flex pups that was born today. And my most recent Tucker pup has his dews.
I was very much on the fence until a dog I train tore his wrist ligaments to shreds this past week just turning to pick up a bird. Wondering if the dew claw might have prevented that? Maybe. Maybe not. He now needs surgery. Heartbreaking.
I know of at least 4 dogs that ran one of the last 2 Nationals with carpal hyperextension injuries.

I'm going to go have a nap now.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I have a 6 month old that has had the dew claws removed. My hard charging first field dog had carpal pain in both front legs from the time he was 8. Since the deed is done, is there anything I can do via exercise or nutrition to prevent similar problems for the pup? He too is going to be a hard charger.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

2tall said:


> I have a 6 month old that has had the dew claws removed. My hard charging first field dog had carpal pain in both front legs from the time he was 8. Since the deed is done, is there anything I can do via exercise or nutrition to prevent similar problems for the pup? He too is going to be a hard charger.


Buy pet health insurance, a hyperextension injury can cost $10,000 to $30,000 to correct with no guarantee of a successful outcome. So called hard charging dogs are no more or less susceptible to this injury. It is more or less bad luck when the foot is trapped in one attitude and the force of the body is in another direction. Shearing, twisting, and hyperextension can cause carpal ligament damage. Mavis injured hers when she stepped into the fork of a fallen tree limb which looked pretty innocent on inspection.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

rboudet said:


> Why? We have a rescue collie mix with loose dew claws and our vet said there was no reason to have them removed.


I wouldn't bother to have dew claws removed on a mature dog. Loose or not. Loose claws that wiggle a lot and are not tucked tightly to the wrist get hung up on stuff more easily. I dont think the problem is too significant with field bred dogs. Big dogs like saint Bernard's and Newfoundlands can have dew claws that are quite loose. 

There is also a big advantage for hunting dogs that have their dew claws as they can literally be used to pull a dog out of a hole in the ice.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

- the subject has been broached multiple times on RTF and in fact Dr Zinks articles have been shared here before. ..


----------



## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Only had one dog with her dew claws intact. The rest of my dogs dew claws were removed by breeder prior to my purchase. No issues yet for those with dew claws removed.
My girl that had her dew claws, unfortunately, ripped both off at about five years old while retrieving a grouse. She bled alot, but didn't show any further problems. Didn't see how it happened.
Interesting discussion!


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Timing of this thread is good for me. FC/AFC Charlie is having pups in about 3 weeks.

Yesterday, someone called about getting a puppy. Wanted dew claws left on. That was going to be a problem. As, have always removed them.
After reading this and consulting with my vet....for the first time, will leave dews on.
What sold me is the fact that, carpal injury is so career threatening.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

EdA said:


> Buy pet health insurance, a hyperextension injury can cost $10,000 to $30,000 to correct with no guarantee of a successful outcome. So called hard charging dogs are no more or less susceptible to this injury. It is more or less bad luck when the foot is trapped in one attitude and the force of the body is in another direction. Shearing, twisting, and hyperextension can cause carpal ligament damage. Mavis injured hers when she stepped into the fork of a fallen tree limb which looked pretty innocent on inspection.


Insurance is in place! My old dog did not have a major injury, but suffered from carpal arthritis and had a knot on his leg where the claw had been removed. Hoping my pup avoids similar issue.


----------



## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Don't be too concerned about buyers not accepting dew claws. Many more people have become aware of Dr. Zink's writing in the past decade. There are even Youtube videos about this issue. I stopped removing dew claws 20 years ago and, for the few conformation folks on here, puppies I left dew claws on have gone AKC BIS, BISS, group wins, etc.

This video of Border Collies retrieving a ball is a good one on how dogs use their front dew claws. 

https://youtu.be/yp2xHj_NJn4


----------



## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

An additional consideration for dogs that may need to climb back on the ice:


----------



## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Here is an attempt to repost the image Doctor Ed had uploaded to see if it is zoomable and readable. I could not get it to show so asked Ed to forward and let me try.
> 
> 
> View attachment 80690


Thanks, Chris - and Dr. Ed. I'm going to save this as a PDF and give it to potential puppy buyers.


----------



## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Have had two dogs WITH Dewclaws over course of my life span. ( will be 50 this year). BOTH have torn the dewclaws . One was using her foot to manipulate something, and the other tore in the field. No torn legs or leg ligaments, or carpal arthritis in the dogs who had them removed. 
As the lab ages ( dewclaws), it will be interesting to see if she develops any arthritis in her feet. I am getting a new pup in about 7 weeks, and she ,too, will have dewclaws (not by my choice). Not going to decline a puppy because it has them, but as of now, I still plan to remove them in my newborn litters.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I cannot not like this enough! Thanks Dr Ed!


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Y'all can dew what you want. I have a dog that was out for months after she got her dew-claw caught on a truck bed at 4, had to go to physical therapy. Also have a dog who has cut those dew-claws in iced snow, so that she couldn't hunt after a few hours on a week long trip. I have a dog that jumped out of a boat got tangled in camo netting, so that she ripped her leg. She has de-gloved those nails, more times than I can count; and I keep them short; although that is an epic weekly battle. I have a dog who came up lame on that same leg off and on her whole life. I have a dog with dew-claws I also have a dog with horrible arthritis in her shoulder and elbow. I have a dog with a hyper-extension injury; and over sized wrist with arthritis. I have 3 other dogs No dew-claws that haven't had any of these issues; but that is probably the luck of the draw. Dew-claws = good item of discussion until you have a dog that has issue with them. Having them might help with some things, they might prevent hyperextension injuries or might prevent whatever. I choose not to deal with might after I've seen what Actually happened to a dog that has dew-claws. To each their own but I wouldn't wish dew-claw injury on anyone. The blood; the screaming; the getting bit by your own dog because they are in such pain when your trying to untangle them; the recovery time; nope won't ever to go through that again


----------



## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Y'all can dew what you want. I have a dog that was out for months after she got her dew-claw caught on a truck bed at 4, had to go to physical therapy. Also have a dog who has cut those dew-claws in iced snow, so that she couldn't hunt after a few hours on a week long trip. I have a dog that jumped out of a boat got tangled in camo netting, so that she ripped her leg. She has de-gloved those nails, more times than I can count; and I keep them short; although that is an epic weekly battle. I have a dog who came up lame on that same leg off and on her whole life. I have a dog with dew-claws I also have a dog with horrible arthritis in her shoulder and elbow. I have a dog with a hyper-extension injury; and over sized wrist with arthritis. I have 3 other dogs No dew-claws that haven't had any of these issues; but that is probably the luck of the draw. Dew-claws = good item of discussion until you have a dog that has issue with them. Having them might help with some things, they might prevent hyperextension injuries or might prevent whatever. I choose not to deal with might after I've seen what Actually happened to a dog that has dew-claws. To each their own but I wouldn't wish dew-claw injury on anyone. The blood; the screaming; the getting bit by your own dog because they are in such pain when your trying to untangle them; the recovery time; nope won't ever to go through that again


Why does my bullshyt meter red line on so many of your posts?


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I have had 100's of English Setters go though this kennel and personally have had 20 some Labs with dewclaws intact, NEVER had an issue. Hard to believe Hunt Em up had all of the ones I was supposed to have


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> Why does my bullshyt meter red line on so many of your posts?



Because you forgot to turn on your compassion meter?


----------



## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

It's easy to prove dew claw injuries but nearly impossible to prove an injury was prevented by having dew claws.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

The purpose of my post was edification not presenting a topic for debate. The opinion is mine with mostly anecdotal support. Having dealt with two serious carpal hyperextension injuries in field trial dogs in the past three years (one career ending and one career threatening) I have concluded that any support for this most vulnerable joint is important. Dr. Zink’s observations and conclusions did not sway me originally but that was prior to these two dogs. If the dewclaw ligaments provide additional support for the carpal joint it seems silly to ignore that potential benefit. Even if the injury would have occurred anyway but the ligaments intact provided enough protection to the joint that repairing the injury would require a partial arthrodesis versus a total arthrodesis the benefit to the dog is immense. If you have experienced serious dewclaw injuries as one poster claims then you may decide that there is no good to come from leaving dewclaws on puppies. I happen to disagree after 50 years as a veterinarian. I cannot imagine any dewclaw injury that is in any manner serious and certainly much less serious than an injury that requires joint fusion.


----------



## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

Dr. Ed, Could a dewclaw nail be surgically removed, just like some do to cats? If so, might it result in no injury snags yet no carpal troubles.


----------



## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

I see quite a few ripped dewclaws at work in pet dogs. It's usually due to long nails but sometimes just because they stick out. I don't see it often in working/sporting dogs, probably because most of the working dogs in my area have had them removed as puppies. The incidence of each type of injury is a percentage of dogs at risk.

I have some dogs with them on and some without. My upper level agility dog has them off and no injuries. My preference is still to have them off on my own dogs but I do leave them on litters if people ask for it (usually the USAR homes).

FWIW, I feel the other component to potential injuries that has not been discussed so far -- is the dog's conformation. Of course speed, repetition, turning/landing forces play a role -- but we know that horses with certain hoof/leg conformation and/or worked in soft, deep ground are at higher risk for bowed tendons -- so canine front end angles, leg and paw conformation should also play a role as in tendon injuries. IMO. Maybe it is time to have conformation factor into our (generic) breeding choices rather than giving dewclaws credit or blame for everything.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

These are my experiences. All the same dog, believe; not believe up to you. Same dog I've mention in everyone of these posts; when this subject of dew-claws come up over and over. She's 12 now; and my how RTF and opinions on this subject have changed. I could video her gait, post it up; I could put up invoices for vet bills, I could have others who were with me when these episodes took place testify. But this is an internet forum and I could careless about anyone's B.S. Meter. Mine tends to go up anytime I read new-age thinking on dew-claws, or if I travel over to the POTUS area of this forum . My feeling as always if Dew-claws weren't causing issues, the developers of the breed would've left them on. Many other breeds leave them; but most working breeders decided to remove them. I'm Not ever gonna drink the dew-claws are positive Kool-aid; I'm not ever gonna be convinced by that same video that gets rehashed over and over, with a very inexperienced dog without dew-claws on ice having issues and a older experienced dog with dewclaws not having issues. My dogs without dews don't have issues getting out on ice. I'm not ever gonna have a hunting dog that has them on again. Everyone else can do as they like; it is a choice. Choices as always can be positive/negative or show no effect at all.

I concur with Idaho's assessment on hyper extension injury and most injuries in field dogs in general. Perhaps instead of placing all this empathizes on one little digit; or just one cause period. Perhaps It's more worthwhile to focus on the subject as a multifaceted, including; overall conformation, lightness-heaviness of bone; early training-box housing of young growing dogs; constant training-campaigning of dogs, the possibility of micro-fracturing not allowed to heal. The grounds we are running the dogs on. (uneven surface, textures, holes). Are we even seeing these issues more now than in the past, or are they just more publicized now? I've seen in 3 hyper extension issues in dogs during my tenure; 1 was mine (x-rayed = arthritis/conformation changes in joint). Other 2 friends. Both were a result of injury uneven ground/falling into holes running down slopes; I would conclude this because the dogs screamed and had to be carried out of the field. The surgery if required is expensive; recovery is long and the results usually suck; both dogs that had the surgery did comeback and still run HT but owners stopped FT, training and distance required for that was too much. 

Thank You Ed; for sharing the article; I always like reading differing opinions and research in health issues affecting our dogs. I may never be convinced on this subject matter. Still nice to have some reading material.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 22, 2018)

*I no longer remove dew claws from my pups*

Another breeder who used to remove them but no more said that they are useful for the dog in situations like pulling itslf out of the water onto the ice. I have also stoped removing them. I have a liter of 10 Golden Retrievers if anyone is interested.
www.orionskennel.com


----------



## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

FWIW, leaving dew claws on is hardly new age thinking. Its been around for at least a decade or three that I know of. I removed them from my first few litters, left them on for the last two, but I haven't bred a litter in more than a decade. Never had a torn dew claw, though I 've seen one.


----------



## Dog Obedience 1st (Aug 17, 2019)

I am an Obedience Instructor, DogObedience1st.com is the name of my business, as well as an avid competitor in the hunt test world (AKC Hunt Test Judge # 100966). I also provide a service matching prospective new puppy owners to 4 possible breeders to purchase from. One of my criteria is that the dewclaws are left on. I have one of my Labs with dewclaws removed and never, NEVER, will again purchase a puppy with dewclaws removed. I recommend to all my new puppy owners they purchase puppies from breeders that leave the dewclaws on.

Roxanne Lee


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I stopped removing dews on my pups about a year ago. Why? Because my vet explained the ligament attachments and showed me Dr. Zink's work. 

Sometimes Chessies also are born with rear dew claws but they aren't attached like the fronts, and those will be removed (breed standard also). 

Personally, I don't buy into the whole "getting out on ice" idea as having much bearing on the subject...dews aren't like opposable thumbs that can move and grab, and I'd be hard pressed to believe that same dog would have drowned without dewclaws.


----------



## jmidvm (Jun 27, 2015)

EdA said:


> my HOF Percy, Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit had dewclaws and it was never a problem. If my memory is correct in 50 years as a veterinarian I have never seen a serious issue with Declaws. In that same time I have seen at least 15 hyperextension carpal injuries all career ending except one which kept her out of competition for almost two years. It is the worst and most career threatening injury for a working dog. Would having dewclaws prevented or diminished the severity of the injuries one can only speculate. I have never been comfortable with amputating a digit in a 3 to 5 day old puppy without benefit of anesthesia. What a terrible introduction to veterinary medicine for a dog.


<br><br>


My husband and I are both veterinarians and we have debated this topic for years. I've never been comfortable with removing puppy dews and refuse to do it. My husband has no issue doing so. He's always removed the dews from our pups and while it does seem like the tide is shifting, most puppy people still think removed dewclaws are a badge of quality. I've had clients present their new puppies to me wanting to know if we can amputate the dews just for that reason (WTH!) I will be thrilled when we discontinue this practice. I took the pledge to do no harm and it hurts my heart to see baby puppies scream.


----------



## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Dog Obedience 1st said:


> I am an Obedience Instructor, DogObedience1st.com is the name of my business, as well as an avid competitor in the hunt test world (AKC Hunt Test Judge # 100966). I also provide a service matching prospective new puppy owners to 4 possible breeders to purchase from. One of my criteria is that the dewclaws are left on. I have one of my Labs with dewclaws removed and never, NEVER, will again purchase a puppy with dewclaws removed. I recommend to all my new puppy owners they purchase puppies from breeders that leave the dewclaws on.
> 
> Roxanne Lee


So are you using this thread to boost your business,or......?


----------



## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Another breeder who used to remove them but no more said that they are useful for the dog in situations like pulling itslf out of the water onto the ice. I have also stoped removing them. I have a liter of 10 Golden Retrievers if anyone is interested.
> www.orionskennel.com


Not the right thread to advertise your litter. There is a classified section for that-and they do require you post clearances.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I wont ever own a lab with dew claws. And goldens dont crawl out of ice because they have dew claws. That is absurd. They get out because they have experience with ice. Just like a dog who can get in a duck boat and one that cant.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

It's becoming more difficult to know what's best for our puppies. 

Individuals who I respect and believe to be knowledgeable about the subject fall in different sides of the issue.


----------



## magnumgoose (Jan 27, 2020)

Is there anyway to resend the attachment or give me the author so I can research it.
It is too small too read as sent.

Thanks!!!!


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

magnumgoose said:


> Is there anyway to resend the attachment or give me the author so I can research it.
> It is too small too read as sent.
> 
> Thanks!!!!


http://www.secrethavenkennel.com/resources/DewClawExplanation.pdf


----------



## K Rocha (Apr 30, 2013)

I have had hounds all my life and have never had a hound with Dew claws , does anyone know why labs have claws and hounds dont?


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

K Rocha said:


> I have had hounds all my life and have never had a hound with Dew claws , does anyone know why labs have claws and hounds dont?



what kind of hounds? a quick search on google indicates hounds have dewclaws at birth and they are removed by the breeder (or not).


----------



## Miller2015 (Jun 6, 2019)

thanks for the information


----------



## opdtretrieve (Feb 15, 2020)

This is the clearest, most direct treatment of the topic I've seen to date. No hype, no emotion - just the facts. Really fantastic and so helpful, thank you for posting this! Dewclaws are one of those things I've heard discussed round and round and it seems like everyone always ends up shrugging their shoulders and saying "meh?" in the end. The dynamic of atrophying muscles is a new one to me, and completely makes sense, especially in high-performing working dogs.


----------



## DH (Oct 3, 2006)

Not scientific at all but I've done a bit of chukar hunting out west and the GSP guys out there select for dogs with rear dewclaws and even some that have double dew claws. They swear that they are better climbing those rocky canyons. I have no idea if it is true but more than one serious chukar guy has told me that.


----------



## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

EdA said:


> The purpose of my post was edification not presenting a topic for debate. The opinion is mine with mostly anecdotal support. Having dealt with two serious carpal hyperextension injuries in field trial dogs in the past three years (one career ending and one career threatening) I have concluded that any support for this most vulnerable joint is important. Dr. Zink’s observations and conclusions did not sway me originally but that was prior to these two dogs. If the dewclaw ligaments provide additional support for the carpal joint it seems silly to ignore that potential benefit. Even if the injury would have occurred anyway but the ligaments intact provided enough protection to the joint that repairing the injury would require a partial arthrodesis versus a total arthrodesis the benefit to the dog is immense. If you have experienced serious dewclaw injuries as one poster claims then you may decide that there is no good to come from leaving dewclaws on puppies. I happen to disagree after 50 years as a veterinarian. I cannot imagine any dewclaw injury that is in any manner serious and certainly much less serious than an injury that requires joint fusion.


EdA,
Has anyone done any research or know how these FIELD TRIAL dogs are getting warmed up and stretched out? I have had multiple dogs with multiple FT trainers. Yes they get aired in a fenced in area, and then boom onto truck/trailer we go. I get it that is their job, but these are athletes in the purest form and deserve to be stretched out and loosened up. On game day they are aired, and brought to the line to run a triple. I have had multiple labs over the past 25 years -18 that we have owned, multiple more that have trained and or guided with-all with dew claws removed. I have not had an issue with any of these dogs which are guide dogs for many weeks in SD badlands. We did have 1 Golden Retriever (client dog) come up lame when he caught its front dew claw going down a steep ravine.

Pointing out the commonality of FT dogs. Just as twisted stomach, ( personal experience 7 year old ) IMO the time these dogs are kept in the box on a truck, as they jump down from the top hole, as there is not adequate room to fully stretch their body out. Watch a house dog when it gets up- it will stretch completely out front to rear legs well over 6' if given room.

Animals as in humans need to stretch and warm up before going full throttle! My 2 cents.


----------



## Labman519 (Sep 26, 2019)

Very interesting article. I have 2 BLFs that have their dewclaws removed and both do come up lame after a day of hunting. I will think long and hard before buying another pup without dewclaws


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Labman519 said:


> Very interesting article. I have 2 BLFs that have their dewclaws removed and both do come up lame after a day of hunting. I will think long and hard before buying another pup without dewclaws


So, both your labs come up lame after hunting and you think its arthritis because of dew claw removal? 

This article has been read like a gospel since it came out. Saves breeders some money on pups for an extra trip to the vet. 

Talk to some older field trial trainers who win a lot. One is pretty clear that hes never seen arthritis related to the dew claw article claim in his career. 

The author runs dogs on astro turf agility rings. Maybe that is a bigger factor in the injury experience and her science?


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Interesting and thought provoking thread. One thing that stood out to me in the article was the sample of "over 30 dogs", so 31 maybe 34? Seems like a big conclusions drawn from a tiny sample and a huge number of variables.
Not knowing the answer myself, I sent the article to a friend that knows many experts on everything to do with dogs. He consulted the person he considers the foremost expert in the world. The answer we got, in a nut shell, Dr Zinc is full of crap. 
I am not at liberty to reveal the sources as they have no interest in getting into an online argument and don't consider Dr. Zinc's theory worthy of discussion.
No disrespect to the opinions of others here, I prefer a pup with dew claws removed.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I too dismissed Dr. Zink’s theory about dewclaw ligaments providing some level of support for the carpal joint but in my zeal to discredit it I failed to consider the following. In 52 years of retriever ownership, training, and administering to them as a veterinarian i have not seen many carpal hyperextension injuries (maybe 15) but not a single one had dewclaws and all except 2-3 were career ending requiring complete fusion of all 3 levels of the carpal joint. During that same period I have seen about an equal number of dewclaw injuries most just requiring toenail removal and none were career threatening so I rest my case. You are free to select a puppy on the presence or absence of dewclaws, I am very glad I did not make that choice or I would never had the honor of standing next to a HOF dog FC-AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit who had dewclaws as does my future hopeful pride and joy Trumarc’s Touche’


----------



## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Y'all can dew what you want. I have a dog that was out for months after she got her dew-claw caught on a truck bed at 4, had to go to physical therapy. Also have a dog who has cut those dew-claws in iced snow, so that she couldn't hunt after a few hours on a week long trip. I have a dog that jumped out of a boat got tangled in camo netting, so that she ripped her leg. She has de-gloved those nails, more times than I can count; and I keep them short; although that is an epic weekly battle. I have a dog who came up lame on that same leg off and on her whole life. I have a dog with dew-claws I also have a dog with horrible arthritis in her shoulder and elbow. I have a dog with a hyper-extension injury; and over sized wrist with arthritis. I have 3 other dogs No dew-claws that haven't had any of these issues; but that is probably the luck of the draw. Dew-claws = good item of discussion until you have a dog that has issue with them. Having them might help with some things, they might prevent hyperextension injuries or might prevent whatever. I choose not to deal with might after I've seen what Actually happened to a dog that has dew-claws. To each their own but I wouldn't wish dew-claw injury on anyone. The blood; the screaming; the getting bit by your own dog because they are in such pain when your trying to untangle them; the recovery time; nope won't ever to go through that again


I also witnessed the blood curdling scream when it happened here w/ a visiting lab a few yrs ago. That couple will NEVER have a pup w/ dews intact again. It was a 3-4 mo recovery process after removal. We have a vet who does dews w/ laser and even before that w/ traditional procedure, I've never seen issues w/ carpal arthritis... even my labs who were still running agility (Chris Zink's subject group as I recall) at age 12. If I were guessing, the dogs w/ carpal arthritis had crappy structure.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> If I were guessing, the dogs w/ carpal arthritis had crappy structure.


My concern is not arthritis of the the carpal joint but ligament damage and carpal or metacarpal fractures resulting from carpal hyperextension. These are two very separate issues, the question remains do the ligaments of the dewclaw provide some carpal joint support to diminish or prevent carpal hyperextension. It is not my intent to convince those who are convinced that the dewclaw is a useless appendage but rather to give those with an open mind a point of view from someone who has far too much experience with carpal hyperextension injury and arthrodesis. There is no structural issue with this injury.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

The latest theory I heard is the use of mats on the line. When they get slippery, as the always do, the dogs foot slips then catches causing a great amount of stress on joints. While I have zero medical knowledge, it does make sense. Training today with the lady I heard about it from, I'll ask her more about it.


----------

