# Young dog and awful line manners at tests



## Dustin McBride (Jan 5, 2011)

I have a 16 mo old blm that I am having some trouble with when running tests. His line manners are horrible when he is at a test environment. It's not just his line manners, but also in the holding blind and walking to and from the truck. It has been wearing me out and I wanted to see what you good folks here have to say about it.

To give a little background. When we ran JR tests last fall he was pretty bad by the last test in the holding blind and about pulling me to the line. There was NO getting him back to heel. In the blind he was always trying to lunge out. He would sit for just a sec, but that would be it...then back to trying to pull out and to the line.

After this, I started to try and slow things way down for him in training. Beginning at the truck and slowly working my way to the holding blind and then finally to the line. If any goof-ups, then back to the truck we went to start all over again. Of course training has went well. He is under control even when training in larger groups with bigger set ups and more dogs. I cannot seem to re-create the test behavior even when training in larger groups.

Now, this past weekend we ran in HRC Seasoned tests. Luckily we passed, but he was awful again going from truck, in the blind, going to the line, and at the line. Once he gets off the line for his marks or blind, he listens to me well. But at the line he is not responding well to my commands of SIT, give me very little push/pull, and is starting to develop a creeping issue. 

There is no way I can run him in any SR tests and try walking to line off lead until i get him under more control. What do y'all think I should do to try and fix some of these issues?

In training NONE of this would be tolerated, but my dog is "great" when training. A little creeping still, but none of this poor behavior and lack of control in the holding bling or at the line. My main concern in trying to get this dog under better control. I realizie he is young and that he has only been to the line 6 times at a test scenario. So I expect some of this will get better with experience as the dog begins to grasp whats going on a little better. Even when hunting over my dog this season, he was pretty darn well mannered in the field. Again, I try to keep my standards pretty high.

I am following SmartWorks.

So lets hear your thoughts on this.

Thanks!!


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Maybe I didn't see it but do you use a collar for corrections? Do you try using flyers when you are training with your pro? Do you use a mat in training for your dog to sit on?


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## Dustin McBride (Jan 5, 2011)

fowl hunter said:


> Maybe I didn't see it but do you use a collar for corrections? Do you try using flyers when you are training with your pro? Do you use a mat in training for your dog to sit on?


Yes, I use a collar. Also heeling stick. Sometimes a boot.

He does get live flyers in training. He typically gets bumpers for any yard/drill work and dead birds for marks. 50/50 for blinds.

I do use a mat. However, he recognizes what it is and in training started to get there a little more quickly than I like. I correct for this every time. Sometimes I wont use mat, but do most of the time. And b/c of his awareness of what this mat is, I have been stepping back off the mat and reheeling him with me so that he can start to realize that he wont run from the mat every time.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Man I need this thread badly, thanks for starting it and thanks to all who contribute civilly.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

My older dog was the same way. He started at a later age training. I always felt if I got to the line fantastic b/c he could do the work. Got through Seasoned HR but never took him further. He could drag me if he wanted. We used a prong collar and demanded sit!!! and kept to that standard in training. Used the collar walking to the line but he got smart and knew it was off at a test! Practiced just heeling during training sessions, letting him just watch the birds and guns go off, making him abide by the standard in the holding blind. HT two days in a row was not a good thing. Since your dog is really young you probably have a good chance of turning him around. I would not HT him until you do have more control b/c you need to be in control for Finished HT or Master level. Just my opinion. Be interested in what the others think. Good Luck to you!!!!


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## dritchie1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Are you training with holding blinds??...maybe 2 or 3 before running may help. Also if he won't creep in training, try backing up with a heel nick heel after the mark is thrown. I wouldn't run too many hunt tests in a row, or this will get worse. 

I'm interested to hear what others have to say with difficulty at the line in hunt tests because you probably don't have much trouble in training. I agree with flyers and mix them up being short and long.


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## Dustin McBride (Jan 5, 2011)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> My older dog was the same way. He started at a later age training. I always felt if I got to the line fantastic b/c he could do the work. Got through Seasoned HR but never took him further. He could drag me if he wanted. We used a prong collar and demanded sit!!! and kept to that standard in training. Used the collar walking to the line but he got smart and knew it was off at a test! Practiced just heeling during training sessions, letting him just watch the birds and guns go off, making him abide by the standard in the holding blind. HT two days in a row was not a good thing. Since your dog is really young you probably have a good chance of turning him around. I would not HT him until you do have more control b/c you need to be in control for Finished HT or Master level. Just my opinion. Be interested in what the others think. Good Luck to you!!!!


I wish my pup would get this way during training so I could correct. As I mentioned in the OP, in training he is good. He will heel off lead. I can leave him in holding blind for long time with marks going off and poppers, etc. I try setting him up in the holding blind and he does great. At the line in training he is responsive to me and listens well (aside from some minor creeping issues, but those are the least of my concerns at this point in time).

He also honors pretty good in training. But I wouldn't dare trust him acting this way at a test to honor. I do think I may try just staking him out and watching every dog run during training. Maybe this will help a bit to get him used to waiting.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Can you get out to day train Dustin? I think I can help you out...

Angie


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I wouldn't say a lil creeping is the least of your worries, don't let it get any worse. Do you do most of your training at the same place or do you train at digf locations? Good luck to you and your dog. JC knows what he is doing and sure he can help you get it worked out


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Angie B said:


> Can you get out to day train Dustin? I think I can help you out...
> 
> Angie


Dustin,
You need to take advantage of this offer.

*RK*


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Do a search here of a thread titled "sit means sit or does it"
Originator is Ted Shih

Read the entire thread, and play close Attention

Do NOT listen to those that tell you a litle bit of creep is ok

Do not listen to those that tell you your fog won't fail the early levels of ht because of creeps or overly wzcites line manners

Quit running tests until you have this well under control 

It will only get worse I'd you don't

Gooser who speaks from a LOT of experience 

Gooer


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Angie should be able to evaluate your dog and give you better ways to help your dog than anyone on here. It certainly helps to see EXACTLY what your dog is doing. I would take her up on her kind offer.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Dustin McBride said:


> I have a 16 mo old blm that I am having some trouble with when running tests. His line manners are horrible when he is at a test environment. It's not just his line manners, but also in the holding blind and walking to and from the truck. It has been wearing me out and I wanted to see what you good folks here have to say about it.
> 
> To give a little background. When we ran JR tests last fall he was pretty bad by the last test in the holding blind and about pulling me to the line. There was NO getting him back to heel. In the blind he was always trying to lunge out. He would sit for just a sec, but that would be it...then back to trying to pull out and to the line.
> 
> ...



First quit running him in tests ( I'm sure you already know this) second the red high lighted portion of your post says it all a little creeping in training will only get worse in a test or trial. You need to take Angie up on her offer to come out and train, you will most likely find that your OB is not where you believe it is and sometimes it takes a well qualified person sitting in the chair behind us and a swift kick in the arse to realise it, almost always the handlers fault not the dogs.. Good luck...


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## Dustin McBride (Jan 5, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> Do a search here of a thread titled "sit means sit or does it"
> Originator is Ted Shih
> 
> Read the entire thread, and play close Attention
> ...


I agree that the creeping is NOT OK. I do correct for this when it happens and will continue to work on this.

I also agree that stopping testing for now may be a good option until I get this under control.

I appreciate everyones advice and would love to hear more. Keep it coming!!


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

What does your pro JC say or suggest?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

fowl hunter said:


> What does your pro JC say or suggest?


This is the best advice. If you are already using a pro connect with him.

You're more then welcome here anytime, but sit down and talk with JC. I'm sure you 2 will come to a solution.

Angie


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## Richard McCullough (Sep 22, 2009)

Todd said it, and I will second that. "Obedience". My older dog is a handful to the line. I have buckled down on his obedience, it was not what I thought it to be. I can get him in training and training days to heel real good, then comes hunt test day. maybe I just need to go faster. 
The pup now, is way tighter in his obedience and he goes to the line real well, and we take our time.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8949&highlight=Sit+means+sit+Ted+shih

I bet Angie will straighten YOU out!:razz:

Somebody very Kind straightened Gooser out!!! (Tuff love)

Gooser


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

One thing that I have done is to go to a club training day and just make my dog honor for long stretches at a time. If he so much as raises his back side up he learns that is not what I am looking for. I have learned from having a dog break at a test not once but twice that I needed to do something other then just wait for the test when he decided to go before we fixed that issue. I have purposely attempted to over excite him by using shackled birds and tricking him into breaking or even ramping up the excitement level to trick him into moving so as to get a forceful correction. At his last Master test we had a no bird on honor, and the live flier flopped out of the winger and there were 4 people running around chasing the duck while my dog watched. Thankfully I was unaware of what all the excitement was about as I did not take my eyes off of my dog the whole time, and kept quietly telling him "no bird". Raising the stimulus level so as to get the opportunity to make the correction has been helpful to me, and thankfully I have some understanding and helpful friends who assisted me. Let's hope this helps you, too.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I have nothing to add, except that I feel your pain. I really, seriously do. Atticus can still be a PIA, .


*But I do want to thank the OP, because....*


_*

you know what this thread title means???*_

_*
Spring is here!
Spring has sprung!
Whoooo-hooooooo!

*_Good dogs misbehavin'--Better than the first robin. 

And good luck. I really so feel your pain and wish you the best of luck--better luck than I've had, for sure.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

i had to stop running tests. my first test a senior, judges commented at the awards that we where the calmest dog and handler they had ever seen at a hunt test. Then the rest of the story. second test is started it was trying to peek under the holding blind, third test is was the collar shake test on the tailgate, reshake on the ground, then the tug of war. then the breaking, almost controlled breaking, tearing down the holding blinds, then figured out stop running tests. dog was perfect in training wouldnt budge, marking was unbelievable, never made any mistakes. even tried taking off the collar throwing flyers in her face, set up breaking tests, the works.
I could read it in her face she new she was being set up. I did some collar work
traning with holding blinds to straighten out her blind demolition. I watched some of the pros, they all used the metal chain choke collars, I switch to that. i started airing her more at the test on lead and not let her pull me around, to teach her to be more relaxed at the test. i did a drill using 2 clipped wings and shotgun poopers. throw the clip wings, while the dog is focused on the flyers, turn and quietly run away from the line, while engaging the collar. after a couple of those my dog has eyes in the back of her head. if i back up she backs up. club training days are also good practice. i was invited to gun at one of our local clubs. I had my dog lay down in the gun station while I shot pheasants for the other dogs. bird after bird. she never broke once.(with a collar on) i had her creep at a training day, perfect oportunity for a correction and I was sleeping on the line. she creeped out on the flyer,then backed up still focussed on the bird, and almost took me out. Keep working at it and you will work it out. i would rather be working on control, than be pushing his butt to go get bird. so you are WAY AHEAD.
Good luck,


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Dustin McBride said:


> I agree that the creeping is NOT OK. I do correct for this when it happens and will continue to work on this.
> 
> *I also agree that stopping testing for now may be a good option until I get this under control.*
> 
> I appreciate everyones advice and would love to hear more. Keep it coming!!


Not "may be" and not "for now" (if for now means a few weeks). This takes a long lay off from testing.

With some dogs that creep in training you can correct, then send. You appear not to have one of these dogs. You appear to have the kind of dog that if it creeps in training, you need to correct, have the marks (or mark as you should stick with singles until steady on singles) picked up, then re-throw the marks maybe without a shot or duck call etc. If your dog creeps at a test, you should pick him up and go to the truck.

Dennis Voigt has written in Retrievers ONLINE about a steadiness drill that you can use. 

Also, do you correct either with a collar or stick every single time in training? I've read (Lardy?) that if you give a physical correction every time in training and can not give a physical correction at a test, the dog will soon become test wise. I don't think this means to allow a creep in training, just heel them back sometimes and correct sometimes. At least thats the way I interpretted it. Maybe someone else familiar with this can comment further.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I've been there.
Keep a very high standard re movement & obedience.
Accept that marking may fall off for a time.
Sit means sit thread.
Try to travel to train now & then. Getting with different groups on different grounds amps them up & helps to get you the opportunities to keep the standard up.
It takes time.


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## Solvang (Nov 3, 2011)

Is there any possibility that the OP is sending different signals that the dog is picking up in the test situations versus the training?

The OP may want to try having his pro handle the dog at a test to see if it is really the dog

Its a dumb question I know but people tend to put more emphasis on the game they don't always assert during practice. The dog may be picking up on this.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Dustin McBride said:


> I am following SmartWorks.


Have you made contact with Evan on this issue?





MooseGooser said:


> Do a search here of a thread titled "sit means sit or does it"
> Originator is Ted Shih
> 
> Read the entire thread, and play close Attention
> ...


 
Time Saver - 
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8949&highlight=sit+does+means+it


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## Tim Fitzgerald (Jan 22, 2009)

Holy crap, I thought I was reading my life story.....This is my dog ver batum. Angie if you are reading this thread pls PM me with some ideas. I would dang near drive to alaska to fix this problem.....


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

I have one now that was a dragger and jaw popper from hell. He knew the mat ment marks/birds. Collar didn't phase him and only jacked him up more. I spent one week in the yard walking him to the mat with the heeling stick, but not letting him on the mat until he could control himself. After a solid week he was better and I would let him retrieve from the mat IF the standard was maintained. Any deviation from the standard was dealt with fairly harshly but it did the trick. He now knows his best behavior is expected and nothing less. This dog is still a Head Case and probably will be for life if the owner ever relaxes the standards.
Still waiting for you to come train with us skeeter


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## Twolabsplus (Aug 29, 2004)

Don't run him again until you have him under control. It only gets worse.
I have had same problem..... wish the first time it happened I would have
thanked the judges and walked away but No, I suffered though all four Jr.
events. All is well now but I didn't enter
anything else until it was fixed. Let Angie help you if you haven't already.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time, I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC. We can not get a SH title or past the third series in a qual because of the things you mention. I ran junior tests just because we could. He marks fine and has all that drive. Now he is 7 years old and just my buddy. Do not continue to run tests/trials until you KNOW that you have the dog's attention. Best of luck to you.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

How many dogs have been completly ruined, by the desire to get a ribbon or a title in the JR, Started, Senior, or HR ?? Train your dog to the MH or Finished level and then run your dog. Most Derby dogs don't run untill there around 20 monthes and for the most part ready to run a Q. and theres a reason.. I don't run HT but see it at almost every one I work at, the JH dog dragging the handler to the line or the SH cheating ever piece of water that is put in front of them. Most if not all of these handlers has absolutly no way of ever correcting these problems and have to live with it.. Most of the time it's the club putting pressure on the members to RUN there dog... befor there mentally ready..


I for one will never run a JH or SH I'll run a MH, or finished test when my dog is doing Qual. work, and not a second befor. These problems are 100% handler made..


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

2tall said:


> At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time,* I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC*. We can not get a SH title or past the third series in a qual because of the things you mention. I ran junior tests just because we could. He marks fine and has all that drive. Now he is 7 years old and just my buddy. Do not continue to run tests/trials until you KNOW that you have the dog's attention. Best of luck to you.


Really? Come on now...


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

One thing I can say is junior and started are great for rookies getting into the game or for kids wanting to run. I think junior and senior is good for people wanting to breed there female to atleast show the female has some desire and train ability. I know I may get jumped on for saying that. My female only has her Junior title but has ran in seniors. Atleast when I breed her next mo people know that the mom has some desire.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I have a 18 no old derby dogs that runs great 400 yard marks but lately his toughest marks have been 100 yards or less because he likes long marks so I am gonna run him in some senior and junior march and April just to get him some work on checking down on marks. May not be a good idea but also gonna have my 7 yr old run him. Getting my boys involved is all that matters to me. My dad son time is the biggest importance in my life except for my relationship with the big man upstairs


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time, I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC. We can not get a SH title or past the third series in a qual because of the things you mention.


Maybe Carol but honestly the dogs that perform week in and week out are dogs that are level headed and watch there birds. The dogs that are naturally over the top are really at a disadvantage on every mark other than the go bird. I know where your comming from because I had one like Indy, you can grin and bear it, cover it up, make excusses, they could have been this or that, but bottom line there a pain in the ass.. They never reach there full potential because they never learn to sit there and watch the marks like a good dog. As a owner you can either except it and deal with it with limited results for the entire life of the dog (like you have) or move on.. I for one have come to the conclusion that my life is too short to fight with or beat up on a dog for his entire life. I truely believe that some dogs are so over the top that no matter the up bringing or the level of standard you set, they will always be that way on the weekends, after they realise the difference..


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I didn't read all of this after the first page so I'll just interject a few things and I apologize if they have been mentioned.

For one, it's bologna saying your dog is perfect in training but not at tests. Your dog everyday gives you cues as to how he will perform at a test/trial, you're just not picking up on them. Foot pumping, whining, beating you to the mat by a foot not a mile, rocking his body as the marks go down, butt hovering as marks go down, head swinging, eye flicking,,, etc. Some behaviors are more pronounced then others. Depending on the dog, they can be a huge problem, somewhat of a problem or no problem. That's the "Trainer" part of dog trainer. You have to evaluate and come up with a game plan to modify those behaviors if at all. And it runs the gamut from severe intervention to moderate or light.

Once you have a game plan,,, see it through.. Read the first sentence again,,, read it one more time. Be as hard on yourself enforcing the new game plan as you are on your dog to comply with it. Make your dog a BELIEVER!!!! Don't expect your dog to change if you don't change. 

Thirdly,,, Be there for your dog at a test!!! Don't be so foolish as to let your nerves get the best of your performance and team work. Your dog can't save you or make you look like a pro. You're the leader, you're the driver, you're the head of the team. If you can't control your nerves and focus on the task at hand please don't expect your dog to act anything other then an idiot.

Good luck and the invitation still stands...

Angie


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## Labman67 (Aug 9, 2011)

Great Post!!!!!!!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Long time ago we didn't have hunt tests so dogs ran derbies, but they were usually older, and even then high desire dogs can build bad habits in the derby. Now with people anxious to test and get a title, these high desire dogs are run too early and too often and it doesn't take them long to get out of control or start vocalizing. I personally usually like to wait until my dogs are older. Now you have a problem that is going to take considerable effort to get under control and it will not go away with experience, it will get worse. The dog may just lift his butt in training-that lift should be corrected because at a test, it goes to a hop or a creep. You have to train with groups as much as possible, shoot flyers, simulate the test atmosphere, and keep your standards high at all times. If people only realized that by running a puppy early, double staked even, just to get that title, does screw up many dogs. They should wait until the dog is ready for senior or Qual if you intend to keep running the dog because you don't want to get that junior title by the seat of your pants and have no future. What you do with young dogs does make a difference.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

2tall said:


> At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time, I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC. We can not get a SH title or past the third series in a qual because of the things you mention. I ran junior tests just because we could. He marks fine and has all that drive. Now he is 7 years old and just my buddy. Do not continue to run tests/trials until you KNOW that you have the dog's attention. Best of luck to you.


 
Me too!! But Weezie doesn't meet the height requirements and those long swims are just brutal when your legs are 5 inches long.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I have been down this road and live (and die) here.

I made a post a while back.
This is what I did.
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73229&highlight=noise+at+line
The OP kinda thinks it doesn't apply.
It does, what is cute today is a disaster and heartbreak tomorrow.

*FIX IT NOW!!!!*

Or pay for it forever*!!!* :shock:

JMHO

I am not being a smart azz here, I am trying to help you.

Stop running tests!



stan b


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

For one, it's bologna saying your dog is perfect in training but not at tests. *Your dog everyday gives you cues as to how he will perform at a test/trial, you're just not picking up on them. Foot pumping, whining, beating you to the mat by a foot not a mile, rocking his body as the marks go down, butt hovering as marks go down, head swinging, eye flicking,,, etc.* Some behaviors are more pronounced then others. Depending on the dog, they can be a huge problem, somewhat of a problem or no problem. That's the "Trainer" part of dog trainer. You have to evaluate and come up with a game plan to modify those behaviors if at all. And it runs the gamut from severe intervention to moderate or light.




What Angie said in post above is exactly right!!

I never was able to pick up on these clues Angie speakes about.. I THOUGHT i knew what "sit " was... I really didnt have a clue. Its really important once a dog starts to show unwanted movement /behaviors to be able to recocnise these "clues" they give you. Thats the timming part of correction, that I now believe many dont understand...

Cherylon showed me this........ She also would point out to me in training the number of times I missed opportunities for corrections,, and let a strickt standard slip..
Like Teds thread stated,, it starts really at home, comming in a door,, sitting at feeding,, sitting before getting on the truck,, getting off the truck. How you sit the dog in the holding blind,, how you come out of it..
Its all very important...
If Angie will offer to help the original poster out,, My suggestion would be to him, would be to jump all over that , and show up with Donkey ears,, and a very thick skin.....:razz:


*Thirdly,,, Be there for your dog at a test!!! Don't be so foolish as to let your nerves get the best of your performance and team work.* Your dog can't save you or make you look like a pro. You're the leader, you're the driver, you're the head of the team. If you can't control your nerves and focus on the task at hand please don't expect your dog to act anything other then an idiot.

This is incredibly true!!!!
Is what Gooser just cant accomplish.... I am a nervouse wreck at a test.
I come across like class clown most of the time,, butdeep down inside I am so nervous,, I cant concentrate..... At ALLLL.
Even at training,, I can stand and watch wich way(direction) birds are thrownn but when Its my turn to run... Its all gone..... Makes it hard if you are going to keep a high standard on lines ect, if you dont remeber if the bird was thrown in or out, or angle back!!

Its usually the HANDLER that needs straightened out......
The dog is just performing to the lax standard that the handler doesnt recognise....

Angie!!!! I would Love to train with you!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

OP!!!

Take ANGIE UP ON HER OFFER!!!!!

Gooser


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time,* I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC.*


Outstanding marking is necessary, but only part of the equation. Dogs must be able to take direction from the handler and operate as a team, and not that you can't change their mind once they make it up, as you have previously stated. The other part of obtaining an FC is a compliant dog and not a willful dog, one able to achieve team work on blinds, and not just line them up and pray you don't have to change their minds.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Outstanding marking is necessary, but only part of the equation. Dogs must be able to take direction from the handler and operate as a team, and not that you can't change their mind once they make it up, as you have previously stated. The other part of obtaining an FC is a compliant dog and not a willful dog, one able to achieve team work on blinds, and not just line them up and pray you don't have to change their minds.


Amen!! A even bigger component is a dog that can stay out of trouble and get out of trouble smoothly. That's brains!!!

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> OP!!!
> 
> Take ANGIE UP ON HER OFFER!!!!!
> 
> Gooser


I love your previous post and it's so true. I mean all of that is the crux of the problem. It's not that hard or complicated. Knowing your dog and what needs to be done to eradicate a behavior is.

Goose your invited to come and train with me anytime and if you can't make it to Texas stop by when I'm in MI. I'm sure Nancy would love to see you and her granddoggy too. 

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time, I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC. We can not get a SH title or past the third series in a qual because of the things you mention. .


How can you type such things and expect to be taken seriously?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Amen!! A even bigger component is a dog that can stay out of trouble and get out of trouble smoothly. That's brains!!!
> 
> Angie


You are very correct, another component-intelligence, and the ability to operate on their own when they need to without being screwed down tight, and a savvy knowledge of how to dig out birds that are placed where dogs don't want to go.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

This is a great thread...
It really hits close to home for me.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

road kill said:


> Dustin,
> You need to take advantage of this offer.
> 
> *RK*


I'll second that!!!!!


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Good Stuff here.

Difficult to put in practice, but if you can it would be rewarding.


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## Dustin McBride (Jan 5, 2011)

road kill said:


> The OP kinda thinks it doesn't apply.
> It does, what is cute today is a disaster and heartbreak tomorrow.
> 
> stan b


Stan, I never said that I don't think it applies. I apprecieated your PM and you taking the time to respond to my post. I simply said in my "PM" to you that I would read it when I get home. Anyway, again I appreciate your input, and everyone's for that matter. This is my first dog that I am training and I am learning something new every day. I will be the first to admit that I probably need more training that the dog does, and I am always happy to have constructive criticism.

-Dustin


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

2tall said:


> At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time, I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC. We can not get a SH title or past the third series in a qual because of the things you mention. I ran junior tests just because we could. He marks fine and has all that drive. Now he is 7 years old and just my buddy. Do not continue to run tests/trials until you KNOW that you have the dog's attention. Best of luck to you.


Carol, not ripping but until you have personally trained an FC it will be pretty difficult for you to have any credibility making a blanket statement like the one above. Marking has to be exceptional not just "Fine" and "Drive" must be combined as a "Total" package along with "Brains". If it were easy, everybody would have FC's but that is not the case.


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

Not many, but some dogs are just not meant for field trials, i have only had one in my career. What you might try is, remote honor. put your dog on a mat in a remote position ( you can use a bale of hay if available) but able to view the training session with ease. The animal must honor all running dogs, if he puts one foot off the mat he is severely disciplined with the collar. of course all unruly behavior going to line must be dealt with appropriate discipline as well.
good luck
GG


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Dustin McBride said:


> Stan, I never said that I don't think it applies. I apprecieated your PM and you taking the time to respond to my post. I simply said in my "PM" to you that I would read it when I get home. Anyway, again I appreciate your input, and everyone's for that matter. This is my first dog that I am training and I am learning something new every day. I will be the first to admit that I probably need more training that the dog does, and I am always happy to have constructive criticism.
> 
> -Dustin


Dustin,
I am in NO WAY criticizing you!!
Quite the opposite.
Several here have offered a direction.
Harsh as it is, you have to change directions.

When my pup was very young, he saw a shot flyer at his first test and turned into a completely different critter.
All the people I was around then were telling me how "AWWSOME" that was.

Frankly, they were full of crap, and by letting it go I created a problem I will fight for the rest of his life.
It is difficult and creates frustration as the dog gets older.
It is disheartening and sucks some of the fun out (sometimes;-)).

The problem is I taught him to do this.

So, PLEASE know, I am not criticizing........I ride that train!!!:shock:



stan b


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Dustin McBride said:


> Stan, I never said that I don't think it applies. I apprecieated your PM and you taking the time to respond to my post. I simply said in my "PM" to you that I would read it when I get home. Anyway, again I appreciate your input, and everyone's for that matter. This is my first dog that I am training and I am learning something new every day. I will be the first to admit that I probably need more training that the dog does, and I am always happy to have constructive criticism.
> 
> -Dustin


So since you have a pro that you work with what does he suggest that you do to fix this? There has been lots of good advice given to you so far. Good luck to you and your dog and don't get discouraged


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Control control control
Obedience obedience obedience
Maintain high standard, Maintain high standard, Maintain high standard

This is all you need to know (relatively speaking). This is all you need to work on (relatively speaking). Always.

A dog at the line without focus and control is a dog that has not yet learned to be focused and under control. And to learn that is your responsibility, which I know you are taking to heart due to your starting this thread. 

Control control control
Obedience obedience obedience
Maintain high standard, Maintain high standard, Maintain high standard


















Did I mention control yet? 

btw: There's a reason why the front title isn't HRCH. ;-)


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

PhilBernardi said:


> btw: There's a reason why the front title isn't HRCH. ;-)


I had the same issue with Flash, hence why no HRCH or MH, even though he only needed one more pass for his HRCH...at 13.5 he will now sort of walk at heel to get to the line! 

I suffered from "Ribbonosis" and ran too many HTs too soon...Flash taught me more than any other dog, the biggest lesson being that the ribbons will come, but you should train first it will save you a lot of heart ache....love that old man!


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Angie B said:


> I didn't read all of this after the first page so I'll just interject a few things and I apologize if they have been mentioned.
> 
> For one, it's bologna saying your dog is perfect in training but not at tests. Your dog everyday gives you cues as to how he will perform at a test/trial, you're just not picking up on them. Foot pumping, whining, beating you to the mat by a foot not a mile, rocking his body as the marks go down, butt hovering as marks go down, head swinging, eye flicking,,, etc. Some behaviors are more pronounced then others. Depending on the dog, they can be a huge problem, somewhat of a problem or no problem. That's the "Trainer" part of dog trainer. You have to evaluate and come up with a game plan to modify those behaviors if at all. And it runs the gamut from severe intervention to moderate or light.
> 
> ...


Great post Angie and the bold so applies to me.

Great dog, so so handler but getting better regards.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If I look back on the mistakes I have made,, I think the biggest is I got in to big a hurry to run tests.

I ran the tests before the dog was ready..
The rules in most venues beginner test alow some leeway as to control.
( bring dog to line on leash,, Hold the dog lightly by collar ect.)
In many cases I think Handlers think that its OK for a dog to have SOME Obediance issues at the test, because they still pass that day..
What they dont take into consideration, is they just taught the dog a behavior that will be a problem in the future,, and REALLLY hard to fix.

If you ask pros about when a dog is ready to run tests, that may include the SIMPLIST of blinds,, I bet many beginner handlers would be shocked...

Think about it... Most Pros wont take your dog till they are 4 to 6 months old..... (How many 6 month old pups have you seen at HRC started tests)
Then that pro takes that dog and trains through transition ,running simple cold blinds... That dog may be well over 9 to 10 months by then,,, and that dog is trained EVERY DAY BY A PERSON WITH A LOT OF EXPERIENCE... That Pro MIGHT consider that dog ready for testing...

We mere Mortals show up at a Junior/ started tests with Pups that havent been acclaimated to HT conditions,,, may be questionable with OB standards,, seen very few birds, dead or Flyers,,Mostly trained on weekends with our club buddies. 
We show up on test day with loose dogs,accept poor standards at that test,, but get the ribbon anyway in most cases...

The Dog that has been through "Basics" Up to and including transition,,, running simple cold blinds,, and is very sound with its understandings of that training,, is the MINIMUM of preparedness for beginning HT IMHO....

I dont think Gooser could have a dog like that ready in 1 year, training with club groups on weekends, and maybe a couple a days during the week after work,,,,, and using DVD's for my information...


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> At the risk of getting ripped up for the hundreth time, I have a dog that clearly could have been an FC. We can not get a SH title or past the third series in a qual because of the things you mention. I ran junior tests just because we could. He marks fine and has all that drive. Now he is 7 years old and just my buddy. Do not continue to run tests/trials until you KNOW that you have the dog's attention. Best of luck to you.





> Most of the time it's the club putting pressure on the members to RUN there dog... befor there mentally ready..





> I for one will never run a JH or SH I'll run a MH, or finished test when my dog is doing Qual. work, and not a second befor. These problems are 100% handler made..





> I truely believe that some dogs are so over the top that no matter the up bringing or the level of standard you set, they will always be that way on the weekends, after they realise the difference..


 
People often mistake being "wild" for having "drive" and think that if they strive for obedience and control that they will suck the drive out of them. Unless they are taught to sit steady, and use their brain, they will never be anything more than a wild Indian, and for that dog's life, you will end up saying "look at all that drive" instead of "look at the wild Indian I created." 

Allowing a wild Indian to happen means you have never allowed your dog, and you, the oppporunity to become and FC. Just having "Drive" doesn't do it. Being a wild Indian certainly doesn't do it. Carol's statement was clearly naive. Good marking, drive, intelligence and team player, throw in a cup or two of luck on top of that skill, and you _could_ have an FC.

Todd, Lainee, Gooser, et al are all correct. Don't run the dog until you have proofed the dog to at least the next higher level.... don't run the dog just to try and get a ribbon.... that's what fabric stores are for.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> If I look back on the mistakes I have made,, I think the biggest is I got in to big a hurry to run tests.
> 
> I ran the tests before the dog was ready..
> The rules in most venues beginner test alow some leeway as to control.
> ...


To your question of how many 5-6 mo old you see at a started test? I think alot, people have there pups doing 40 yard marks so they get ribbon happy then it's a pissing match that they think makes them sound better when you are at the dinner that night hearing the people say " yeah my 4-6 mo old got his started pass today" who cares. I was gonna run my dog in started bcause I wanted my son to handle him but when the splash gets you as the handler wet on the water mark it's not exactly hard to get a ribbon. Not knocking it because started does exactly what it is suppose to do, get people the hunt test bug and ribbons to show off and they want more so they come back. Which IS a good thing


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

fowl hunter said:


> To your question of how many 5-6 mo old you see at a started test? I think alot, people have there pups doing 40 yard marks so they get ribbon happy then it's a pissing match that they think makes them sound better when you are at the dinner that night hearing the people say " yeah my 4-6 mo old got his started pass today" who cares. I was gonna run my dog in started bcause I wanted my son to handle him but when the splash gets you as the handler wet on the water mark it's not exactly hard to get a ribbon. Not knocking it because started does exactly what it is suppose to do, get people the hunt test bug and ribbons to show off and they want more so they come back. Which IS a good thing


I have watched (quite a few) and Judged (a couple) of started tests..

You see dogs there that are VERY well prepared..... You can tell that prolly in training,, they are running at a higher standard than what a started test requires...

You also see dogs there that are being taught bad habits.. 

You have to decide what your goals are...
Whats your big picture?

If the dog is ready,,, then by all means run and enjoy.....
but if it isnt,,,, well ,, prolly better to take a step back...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

All of this discussion brings up the question:

Do you think there are some of us, that dont have the where with all to be a good enough handler to be proficient at the higher levels of HT or lower levels of FT???

I dont think I will ever " have it""

I am way to nervous.. Get easily confused.

I really do think this dog stuff is the hardest endevor I have ever tried..

I have served 2 formal appenticeships in my working career. They were FAR easier to be successful at, than this dog stuf.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> If I look back on the mistakes I have made,, I think the biggest is I got in to big a hurry to run tests.
> .


Kind of like you were in a hurry to throw big marks for Flinch.

It seems you need to work on patience (don't we all)

Ted


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Angie B said:


> I didn't read all of this after the first page so I'll just interject a few things and I apologize if they have been mentioned.
> 
> For one, it's bologna saying your dog is perfect in training but not at tests. Your dog everyday gives you cues as to how he will perform at a test/trial, you're just not picking up on them. Foot pumping, whining, beating you to the mat by a foot not a mile, rocking his body as the marks go down, butt hovering as marks go down, head swinging, eye flicking,,, etc. Some behaviors are more pronounced then others. Depending on the dog, they can be a huge problem, somewhat of a problem or no problem. That's the "Trainer" part of dog trainer. You have to evaluate and come up with a game plan to modify those behaviors if at all. And it runs the gamut from severe intervention to moderate or light.
> 
> ...


*THIS. ^ And take Angie up on her offer.

*The dog ALWAYS tells you what it intends. If you pay attention, you can read the dog and make corrections before things start to happen. 

And when training (or testing)...give 100% of your focus to your dog when you're working with it. That means no talking to anyone else, no distractions....stay hooked to your dog. Even on the way back with a bird! I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen handlers turn to say something to a judge, and that is the exact moment their dog will screw up. 

You cannot expect you dog to give you 100% of its attention unless you reciprocate. 99% isn't good enough.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

PhilBernardi said:


> Control control control
> Obedience obedience obedience
> Maintain high standard, Maintain high standard, Maintain high standard
> 
> ...


 
What's that old saying?;



> "Field trials are won or lost within six feet of the handler"


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## Dustin McBride (Jan 5, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> The dog ALWAYS tells you what it intends.


The more I have thought about this the more little "tells" I can recall during training that I will definately be more strict about enforcing from here on out. I know I have missed some of them in the past. My standards will for sure be tightening up.

I really appreciate everyones advice. I am looking forward to working on these issues with my dog and getting them squared away.

-Dustin


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Do not be afraid to keep coming back and look for more advice. It is good that you are trying to work on all of this now, but I will say that once you start to fix(correct) for one thing, as soon as you fix it, something else will come out.

For example: When I started my pup in Junior tests, he would let our a little yelp when released. I did not think it was too bad. so I let it go. It did eventually stop on it's own, but then I got him steady. I thought his steady was good (just like you) letting some movement on the line go, because he was not breaking. 

Well, he as great for me all through Senior title (not saying he was perfect, but he did very well through these tests). Then came Master last fall. In his second master test, he decided to creep on every bird in the first two series (so much that I re-heeled him at my choice before sending). He did not creep in training, but he would feet shuffle, etc and I did not correct him. I go to my next master test two weeks later (as I thought I have solved the creeping) only to find out I did all wrong, and he broke on the second bird down.

I have now elevated my standard on the line. He does not move. He does not flinch. he does not tap feet, anything. That is great right? Well yes, but because I have done that, he has decided that he needs to release his energy some other way, which has led to whining. I am currently working on this, and I do not plan on running a test until fall (mainly due to my work schedule, but also partly because I want to get this fixed).

The point is. One fix will not solve all of your problems. Maintain a high standard. Do not accept anything less than that standard in training. I would say. he does not do it in training, but I was lying to myself. He was doing it, but I refused to accept it.

Seek out a good training group. Take up Angie on her offer.

Good luck


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## Dustin McBride (Jan 5, 2011)

Zman1001 said:


> Do not be afraid to keep coming back and look for more advice. It is good that you are trying to work on all of this now, but I will say that once you start to fix(correct) for one thing, as soon as you fix it, something else will come out.
> 
> For example: When I started my pup in Junior tests, he would let our a little yelp when released. I did not think it was too bad. so I let it go. It did eventually stop on it's own, but then I got him steady. I thought his steady was good (just like you) letting some movement on the line go, because he was not breaking.
> 
> ...


For sure. I come here very often. Don't post a whole bunch but do read a a lot of whats here. This a a great resource.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Kind of like you were in a hurry to throw big marks for Flinch.
> 
> It seems you need to work on patience (don't we all)
> 
> Ted




I do need patience 

I also need to not worry about what folks will think and say about the performance of new puppy when you show up fer the first time



I


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I do need patience
> 
> I also need to not worry about what folks will think and say
> 
> ...


All of us need patience.
All of us need to do what the dog requires, not what our ego requires.
You are not alone.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

If you train towards having a competitive all-age dog, and work on building the house, you will likely succeed when you test. Test when the dog is well beyond the demands of the test. Don't train for the test.
You will spend far more time training than you will testing, so make the training count. Watch the dogs and handlers at tests and you learn alot.


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## sara c (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't know about anyone else but I get to practice steady and quiet everyday just getting out the front door! My two get so up and excited just at the thought of going outside that it is ridiculous. They have to sit and be quiet just to open the door! I find I'm sneaking out the back or containing them so I don't have to go through it with them knowing I have to keep a standard. Luckily I have a dog door for them to go outside to air. Sara


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> People often mistake being "wild" for having "drive" and think that if they strive for obedience and control that they will suck the drive out of them. Unless they are taught to sit steady, and use their brain, they will never be anything more than a wild Indian, and for that dog's life, you will end up saying "look at all that drive" instead of "look at the wild Indian I created."
> 
> Allowing a wild Indian to happen means you have never allowed your dog, and you, the oppporunity to become and FC. Just having "Drive" doesn't do it. Being a wild Indian certainly doesn't do it. Carol's statement was clearly naive. Good marking, drive, intelligence and team player, throw in a cup or two of luck on top of that skill, and you _could_ have an FC.
> 
> Todd, Lainee, Gooser, et al are all correct. Don't run the dog until you have proofed the dog to at least the next higher level.... don't run the dog just to try and get a ribbon.... that's what fabric stores are for.


There are so many bad habits that can be formed from running a dog to early or to often, Vocal, creeping, breaking, chomping on birds ect . maybe all of the above. I hear it all the time, "the dog crept a little but luckly we passed" or " he was a little vocal on the walk up or the honor but luckly we passed" He really doesn't have a hard mouth he just gums the birds a bit, and can be a bit sticky at times but we passed. 

I almost feel some of this should go on to the judges shoulders as well, if they keep passing, they most likely will not change or realise there is a problem untill it's too late. If they failed a test or two because of any of the problems listed above, they might stop and think befor entering another test, and at least try to fix it befor donating any more money. I don't judge HT but I do judge Minor stakes and Club trials, and I'm not bashful in either telling the handler to reheal the dog, or dropping a dog for noise. These dogs most likely will get themselves in trouble, with poor marking, not being a team player on a blind ect. but why reward poor OB with a placement, it only adds fuel to the fire. 

It all goes back to a very solid OB program and recognising a problem when you see it.. Fc's, MH , HRCH's are made by team players or very talented "A" holes, take your pick....


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> All of this discussion brings up the question:
> 
> Do you think there are some of us, that dont have the where with all to be a good enough handler to be proficient at the higher levels of HT or lower levels of FT???
> 
> ...


No I don't think there is a one of us that can't run a dog proficiently and with ease...

How bad do you want it gooser?? How bad do you want to run a dog well in a calm and focused manner?

Your stating excuses not reasons. If you want it bad enough you will make it happen. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying it's obtainable if you so choose to do so.

Angie


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

_You will spend far more time training than you will testing, so make the training count._

And I'll add that many of us spend far more time hunting with our dogs than testing, so make the training count. ;-)


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## Joe Creedon (May 17, 2010)

Don't run him in a hunt test unless his manners are flawless

If you are able to run him in a hunt test don't run him two days in a row or on consecutive weekends.

Don't run him in multiple venues (AKC, HRC, NAHRA) until he behaves well in one venue

Dont not enter him in a particular hunt test but bring him to a hunt test on a lead, walk him around and when he acts up correct him in some way legal for the venue such as putting him in the truck.

Good Luck


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Angie B said:


> No I don't think there is a one of us that can't run a dog proficiently and with ease...
> 
> How bad do you want it gooser?? How bad do you want to run a dog well in a calm and focused manner?
> 
> ...


 
:razz::razz:

I want it pretty bad.....

I have gotten better.....

What has really opened my eyes , is Cherylon and a couple of others in the training group have let me run their dogs on training days...

I am amazed at how more calm and confident I am if the dog beside me is steady,,,, and takes whistles and casts well..

The first few times I ran these dogs,,,, I thought there was sumpin wrong with them they sat so still!!!:razz:

Some of you have incredible animals...

Gooser


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> :razz::razz:
> 
> I want it pretty bad.....
> 
> ...


I bet that little furball chewing your kitchen baseboard this morning is going to be incredible!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thanks Chris......

But PLEASE ...... I dont need the pressure!!!

We will just have to see how it goes!!

Gooser


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> :razz::razz:
> 
> I am amazed at how more calm and confident I am if the dog beside me is steady,,,, and takes whistles and casts well..


what does that tell you? It should tell you that you want to more than adequately prepare the dog, so you can have your witts about you on test day. You can't think if you're always worried that your dog is going to creep, break, bark, poop, or just be a plain wild Indian on the line. 

1. Prepare dog.
2. Prepare self.

train with people who are at a higher level than you, and become a sponge. 

A well prepared dog can also make you look like a better handler!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

JusticeDog said:


> or just be a plain wild Indian on the line.


 
Did you make that up? I've read it more than once and everytime I read it I laugh about it b/c of the mental image it gives me of a Wild Indian Dog I know 

Just wondering.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> what does that tell you? It should tell you that you want to more than adequately prepare the dog, so you can have your witts about you on test day. You can't think if you're always worried that your dog is going to creep, break, bark, poop, or just be a plain wild Indian on the line.
> 
> 1. Prepare dog.
> 2. Prepare self.
> ...


Thanks Susan, my grandmother used to call me and my cousins "Wild Indians" as kids. Good memories for sure since that was Pre-PC.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Raymond Little said:


> Thanks Susan, my grandmother used to call me and my cousins "Wild Indians" as kids. Good memories for sure since that was Pre-PC.


I know...... showing my age.... and it didn't have a negative connotation back then, either.


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## Elaine Mitchell (Jun 4, 2009)

Angie B said:


> No I don't think there is a one of us that can't run a dog proficiently and with ease...
> 
> How bad do you want it gooser?? How bad do you want to run a dog well in a calm and focused manner?
> 
> ...


This has been a really good thread! I'm thinking I need to add this particular post to my sig line just so I can be reminded of it everyday!!


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## Little River Duck Dog (Feb 10, 2009)

All I can add is get a handle on it early or it WILL get worse! 

My Toller was always pulling and making tons of noise at junior tests. On to senior and the noise has got better but her line manners are still mediocre to horrible. We need 1 more senior pass for our title and we completed our last test but failed because she had a controlled break on every bird, including 2 controlled breaks on the honor! Other tests we would have at most 1 controlled break and no breaks early in senior work but was close. 
In training she seems to thrive on the pressure. She can do master level work in training but unfortunately we will never be able to pass because of her line manners.
Angie, I wish we lived closer!


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

Lots of good insight from Moosegooser and Angie B. More specifically-

Here’s my thoughts on the issue with your dog, as they relate to parts of your original post.

“I cannot seem to re-create the test behavior even when training in larger groups.”
“In training NONE of this would be tolerated, but my dog is "great" when training.”

You may never see this behavior in training, but you don’t have to see it to do something about it. Your dog has learned the difference between training and trial or tests. In other words, he’s a little “trial-wise” Now that you know that, fix it. Give the dog a “lot to think about” when on line. Use your stick, heavily at times, after the birds are thrown, whether he moves or not. Use your stick and make him heel backwards 8 or 10 feet immediately after the birds are down in training, whether he moves or not. Every time for a few days, then half the time. Use stick only without heeling some of the time also. For a couple weeks at least, in training, do not send him to retrieve a mark without applying stick pressure at the line, after that, only do it once in a while. Make this the norm in training until it’s “fixed”. You want him to be thinking of you before thinking about getting the birds. You are trying to establish, in the dog’s mind, that the next thing that happens after the birds are thrown is not a retrieve, and may involve some pressure. After a week or two, when you see the dog look up at you, after the birds are down, you’ll know you’re getting the message across. In the future, let your dog’s behavior dictate what to do. If this works well and the dog doesn’t exhibit this behavior at a trial/test, you can do it less frequently, but it’s something to go back to as needed throughout the dog’s training. This approach is not necessary for all dogs, who have not run trials/tests until they are in balance between enthusiasm and obedience, but with this dog, and his behavior as you describe, you want to approach things this way for quite a while and want him worrying a bit after the birds are thrown. You can accomplish this whether or not he creeps or is unruly in training. Actually most “high-rollers”, “creepers” and such don’t exhibit these traits in training no matter what you do or set up to look like a trial/test. Also, start teaching him to honor other dogs. Say no bird, and stick him every time on the honor. Again, you need to put him in a different frame of mind after the birds are thrown. Pimary selection training on multiple marks, with pressure in training will also help keep YOU in the dog's mind whether or not you use selection in a trial/test.

“So I expect some of this will get better with experience as the dog begins to grasp whats going on a little better.”
No, unless you “fix” it, it will get worse, and it will get worse quicker the more trials/tests you run.

“There is no way I can run him in any SR tests and try walking to line off lead until i get him under more control.”
This is absolutely correct.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

This is one of the best posts on RTF in quite a while. A lot of good information here.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Dman said:


> This is one of the best posts on RTF in quite a while. A lot of good information here.


I agree. It's nice when threads don't et hijacked and off track.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

This is a great thread and relevant to me because I ride this train!!
There is a lot of GREAT advice and some offers that I envy!
This is what I went through to correct an extreme case.

I am not claiming it the be all end all, it worked for me.
On a scale of 1 thru 10 (10 being the BEST) we went from a 0 to about a 7-7.5.

It is still improving but it is very good now.
____________________________________________________________



> *Vocal Dog at the Line Correction, road kill style*
> People who contributed;
> Evan Graham, Randy Bohn, Chris Atkinson, Susan Bledsoe, Bon Malari, Rich Pyka
> These people gave me advice and more importantly encouragement during this process, thanks.
> ...


I hope this can help even 1 person who is where I was................

Good luck, it ain't easy!!


stan b


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

This is a great thread and relevant to me because I ride this train!!
This is what I went through to correct an extreme case.

I am not claiming it the be all end all, it worked for me.
On a scale of 1 thru 10 (10 being the BEST) we went from a 0 to about a 7-7.5.

It is still improving but it is very good now.
____________________________________________________________



> *Vocal Dog at the Line Correction, road kill style*
> People who contributed;
> Evan Graham, Randy Bohn, Chris Atkinson, Susan Bledsoe, Bon Malari, Rich Pyka
> These people gave me advice and more importantly encouragement during this process, thanks.
> ...


I hope this can help even 1 person who is where I was................

Good luck, it ain't easy!!


stan b


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Stan

very good post!!

Gooser


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## Lee Nelson (Jan 4, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> Stan
> 
> very good post!!
> 
> Gooser


+1 agreed.


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

Angie B said:


> Be as hard on yourself enforcing the new game plan as you are on your dog to comply with it. Don't expect your dog to change if you don't change.
> 
> Angie


This is one of the fundamentals of good training, IMHO. With all due respect to Angie, I would suggest: "Be *harder* on yourself". You have to hold yourself to the highest standard if you're going to expect that from your dog. 

Especially if you are in the beginning stages of what is a long long journey - forget about external time-frames (ie the 'my dog ran a derby at 14 mos', 'my dog got her MH at 18mos' noise. The world of washouts is littered with these dogs.) 

Don't worry about tests and trials: compete against *yourself*...analyze what *you *could do better, where* your *weaknesses are, where the holes are in *your* knowledge base. It's *your *responsibility to read your dog....I believe that the more *you *read him and train fairly and methodically, the more he will learn to respect and read you. The tests or trials will come.

Training starts when your feet hit the floor in the morning, not just when you walk out onto the practice field. 


90% of this sport is mental, the other half is hard work, perpetual learning, some talent, and a dash of luck and good timing thrown in..... (with apologies to Yogi Berra.)



Patience, grasshopper, patience......


_(Great thread everyone.)
_


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## rjssjs (Nov 10, 2008)

Questions. The vast majority of us have these dogs as pets/live in the house with us other than training to be what they are ment to be. Right? There is more than one person in the house hold that lets them out to air, feed, ETC... Now the questions. Should each person in the home hold the same standard as the handler to control the behavior of the dog? Meaning, they sit until given the command to exit or enter the home or is the handler the LEADER and requires the highest standards. Will another person just opening the door and letting them run out/in affect there line manners or the control the handler needs? Even the use of different commands by different people such as "Get in here, come on." in stead of "Here." Does all of this affect the dogs behavior going to the line, cheating, breaking and not sitting? Are these things we need our spouse and kids learn to do?

Great thread.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

rjssjs said:


> Questions. The vast majority of us have these dogs as pets/live in the house with us other than training to be what they are ment to be. Right? There is more than one person in the house hold that lets them out to air, feed, ETC... Now the questions. Should each person in the home hold the same standard as the handler to control the behavior of the dog? Meaning, they sit until given the command to exit or enter the home or is the handler the LEADER and requires the highest standards. Will another person just opening the door and letting them run out/in affect there line manners or the control the handler needs? Even the use of different commands by different people such as "Get in here, come on." in stead of "Here." Does all of this affect the dogs behavior going to the line, cheating, breaking and not sitting? Are these things we need our spouse and kids learn to do?
> 
> Great thread.


All depends on the dog. With some yes and some no.

Angie


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

ALWAYS use a mat during training.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Dustin D said:


> What's that old saying?;


My favorite is:

"You own what you condone."

Helen


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

/Paul


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm putting this back to the top for the rest of the ROOKIES. Please take the time to read this. I am part of this too and I have witnessed it at several HT's lately. This is a *****-star thread!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I had not read this thread until today. Out of all the posts, this one line of Angie's jumped out big time. 



> For one, it's bologna saying your dog is perfect in training but not at tests.


Couple that with what my pro trainer/friend told me several years ago, "It's not the dog." and the message becomes rather blunt.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

KwickLabs said:


> I had not read this thread until today. Out of all the posts, this one line of Angie's jumped out big time.
> 
> 
> 
> Couple that with what my pro trainer/friend told me several years ago, "It's not the dog." and the message becomes rather blunt.



Well beyond truth Evan...not but 2 ends to a rope.


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## Griddoc (Apr 25, 2011)

Someone give me a recap. Ran my 12 month old in a double header JH and she was a WRECK from the truck to the line. Once on the line. Steady as a rock. Never flinched once. Judges duck calls never even looked back once. Finished all her marks. Spit one. My fault. Was not focusing in on her. Will reinforce on FF. Holding blind disasters. Raging and pulling. Once on the line, NO WORRIES. Could have ran her with no grip. But to the line. WOW!!!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Griddoc said:


> Someone give me a recap. Ran my 12 month old in a double header JH and she was a WRECK from the truck to the line. Once on the line. Steady as a rock. Never flinched once. Judges duck calls never even looked back once. Finished all her marks. Spit one. My fault. Was not focusing in on her. Will reinforce on FF. Holding blind disasters. Raging and pulling. Once on the line, NO WORRIES. Could have ran her with no grip. But to the line. WOW!!!!


Griddoc Please read this thread entirely through and Ted Sih's post on "Sit Means Sit" It would be in you and your dog's best interest to do so! Don't run your dog in HT until he is under control. He may be doing a great job and looks wonderful but you are rewarding him for bad behavior to the line???? You are not doing yourself or your dog any favors!!!!Good Luck & Happy Reading!!!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I read all the posts on this thread and believe me it’s a breath of fresh air. Haven’t seen a thread like this for a long time… I might add that I am guilty as well and it has taken me some time off of my life to realize that. Just hope that the new folks will take heart and understand that training can be a fun thing if there is no agenda. On the other hand, some dogs can be too much for the new trainer. If that is the case, please seek help and please forget the ego or as I say…Leave the ego checked at the door. Dogs are always with us, it’s up to us to make them understand that in their way and enjoy the short stay they have with us.
Benny


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## D&S Retrievers (Jul 2, 2008)

STOP running tests.
No marks.
Go back to obedience and basics.

Call Randy Bohn.


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## Griddoc (Apr 25, 2011)

Mary Lynn Metras, 
Great advice to read that post. Take 4 steps backwards to get 2 steps forward. It all makes sense to me. D&S Retrievers, back to basics. Got it big time.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Griddoc said:


> Mary Lynn Metras,
> Great advice to read that post. Take 4 steps backwards to get 2 steps forward. It all makes sense to me. D&S Retrievers, back to basics. Got it big time.


Great I am really glad you read it!!!  Slow down and have fun!!!!


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## Guest (May 3, 2012)

Alot off good advice given....I think.
100 and some posts and i don't think i read a single success story.

There was a recent thread called "Calm Shen" Post 81 says it best!


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

Depends on the age of the dog and personality if it can be controlled. Not sure it can ever be fixed and it does lead to other issues. Some trainers are good with one breed or another and they are mentioned here. Haven't found a trainer that is good with all of them. It is an expensive and not always satisfactory problem to cure. Wishing you lots of luck.


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