# 300 yard plus blinds?



## psduckman (Oct 7, 2014)

Is it really necessary to teach 300 yard plus blinds for hunt test only dogs? I have 2 dogs 2 1/2 years old that both have 2 seasoned passes. My goal is to make it to HRCH with them. They are doing pretty well out to about 175 yards. I just was thinking too much as I usually do and the thought ran through my mind!??


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## vafarmer (Jul 14, 2017)

I've heard a general rule of thumb was to train twice the distance on blinds (in training), than whatever you expect to see in a HT or FT. That said I have heard many hunters talk about cripples flying as far as 300 yards, might be worth going the extra distance just for that. IMHO only...


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

You can get hunt test titles without training on long blinds but it is a good training concept anyway. Why limit training because of the rules of a test? Also, there is no rule against a shot duck sailing 300 yards before it bleeds out and dies.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Do you hunt? If they can do 300 yard blinds they can do 50 yard blinds. If they are only doing 50-120 yard blinds then they probably will struggle on 300 yard blinds.


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## psduckman (Oct 7, 2014)

I do hunt and y'all have talked me into it!! I'm sure they are going to struggle! I'm thinking of teaching them in sections like I did when starting blind training. What do you think?


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## vafarmer (Jul 14, 2017)

psduckman said:


> I'm thinking of teaching them in sections like I did when starting blind training. What do you think?


Well, I can tell you a story of my dog, my property is limited for training and the best I could do was 200 yards blinds in training, yes, streaching them out slowly was key. Knowing that Master level blinds could go 150 or so yards, I had to travel out to clubs that had huge property. I found there that when I first attemted a 250 yard or 300 yard blind, my girl would handle out to 200 yards, then hit a mental wall.. I would have to walk out and close the distance to her in order to get past that wall. So I switched up to doing 300 yard pile work, get up closs (about 200 yards), and slowly extending it top the full distance. Can't do too many of these as it would be tough on Rover, but it worked and we finally did manage a MH test title, none of the MH blinds I ran were more than 150 yards, but it sure is nice lining your dog up on a 150 yards blind and nailing it!!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Keep in mind, handling is a tool that you use all throughout training, including to help your dog on marks. The better they handle, the better everything else turns out. 

When I was in HT blinds took out more dogs than poor marking by far.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

psduckman said:


> I do hunt and y'all have talked me into it!! I'm sure they are going to struggle! I'm thinking of teaching them in sections like I did when starting blind training. What do you think?


Keep in mind that distance is only one factor and not necessarily the most difficult one, but it does amplify the effect of other factors.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I run hunt tests and lower stakes trials hoping to eventually work my way up to Amateur stakes. I rarely run blinds less than 250-300 in training(only when limited by grounds). Things you will get from running longer blinds: 1.) Much better initial lines 2.) Ability to hold line for much longer distances 3.) Carrying casts over longer distances

From personal experience, if your dog gets really good at those long distance blinds, you will likely start lining a large portion of hunt test blinds.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

With my first dog we ran only HT's and he was used to running 150-200 yard blinds max. I went hunting in LA and while hunting in the rice fields I had a specklebelly sail about 400 yards before going down. I sent my dog and he only made it about 150 yards out. I ended up having to go to him and send him from where he stopped to get him to the bird. This was a difficult blind anyways because of was in the rice stubble and he had to go up and over 3 dikes to get to the bird. Even marking at that distance was tough because everything looked the same. Since that time I have always pushed them as far as I can.


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## Tim Culligan (Nov 21, 2007)

Hunting in ND I am glad I train for blinds 300 yards plus!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Just thinking out loud here. Maybe retriever hunt test standards should be revised to reflect the challenges retrievers can and do face when we hunt?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

No, it is not necessary.


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## JMitchell (Dec 28, 2012)

rboudet said:


> Do you hunt? If they can do 300 yard blinds they can do 50 yard blinds. If they are only doing 50-120 yard blinds then they probably will struggle on 300 yard blinds.


. 

Do you hunt? If you do learn to shoot so your dog doesn’t have to make 300 yard retrieves. Last year I took my kids to a pheasant preserve shoot. I am a great shot so I was cleaning up all the birds they missed. The last bird I said I am empty it’s up to you, my mistake. Well they wing tipped it and I set my dog on a blind retreive of 250 yards because I had a good mark on the bird. He ran to a fence across a ditch through a fence across a field to another fence to another field and I guided him to the bird. He got it his longest retreive according to google earth. 266 yards Moral of the story I shouldn’t have left it up to my kids we could have lost that bird. 

Plus everywhere else we hunt a 200-300 retrieve is crazy because of terrain and cover make it impossible to cast your dog after 100 yards because they are out of sight. So why don’t you learn to shoot instead of spending all you time on 300 yards retrieves 😀 a 250 yard retrieve for me is a once every 5 or 6 year event and I hunt 60-70 times a year.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

psduckman said:


> I do hunt and y'all have talked me into it!! I'm sure they are going to struggle! I'm thinking of teaching them in sections like I did when starting blind training. What do you think?





Instead of teaching a blind in sections I would do as vafarmer suggested, 300+ yards pile work to a know pile. Also just run 300 yard cold blinds but start following the dog when you kick her off the line. That's assuming she doesn't take your casts past your 175 yards. If she does just run big blinds. As long as she takes your cast she just needs to get used to running the distance.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Instead of teaching a blind in sections I would do as vafarmer suggested, 300+ yards pile work to a know pile. Also just run 300 yard cold blinds but start following the dog when you kick her off the line. That's assuming she doesn't take your casts past your 175 yards. If she does just run big blinds. As long as she takes your cast she just needs to get used to running the distance.


Or...you could do it in reverse when they're still wee'uns - you walk/run back 50 yards each time from a 100-yard initial send to a pile so that you receive the dog 50 yards further than s/he went for the rep s/he just ran.



JMitchell said:


> .
> 
> Do you hunt? If you do learn to shoot so your dog doesn’t have to make 300 yard retrieves. Last year I took my kids to a pheasant preserve shoot. I am a great shot so I was cleaning up all the birds they missed. The last bird I said I am empty it’s up to you, my mistake. Well they wing tipped it and I set my dog on a blind retreive of 250 yards because I had a good mark on the bird. He ran to a fence across a ditch through a fence across a field to another fence to another field and I guided him to the bird. He got it his longest retreive according to google earth. 266 yards Moral of the story I shouldn’t have left it up to my kids we could have lost that bird.
> 
> Plus everywhere else we hunt a 200-300 retrieve is crazy because of terrain and cover make it impossible to cast your dog after 100 yards because they are out of sight. So why don’t you learn to shoot instead of spending all you time on 300 yards retrieves 😀 a 250 yard retrieve for me is a once every 5 or 6 year event and I hunt 60-70 times a year.


That's funny. Didn't say that's untrue, just funny - and a little hubristic to boot.

MG


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Recently started training for FT Blinds and marks. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the distance on Marks and blinds is more of a mental obstruction on my part than its an obstacle to the dog. MY latest puppies have had no issues going long because they are worked long from the getgo. Distance does erode control, but if the pup won't go long there is no chance to tighten control at a distance. I would think it a lot easier to condition a dog, taught to go long, to short marks and blinds than vice versa. No, you don't need 300yd blinds for HT's and only occasionally need them hunting, but incorporated into your training program at the right time will not hinder you and could help down the road.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I had a dog that had a problem. On blinds she just could not go beyond about 30 yards. It was like the old time Colgate commercials and the Gardol shield. She'd hit the 30 yd mark and start swimming circles. It was so bad that we retired her. About 2 years later we decided to try again but with a different pro. I was getting good reports but nothing really definitive. We just didn't talk about the gardol shield but she was progressing in her efforts on blinds. After about 3 months I received a photo in email with a circle up in the corner and the report that she was now doing 300 yd blinds and he was stopping there. Soon thereafter she became the first female HRCh of the breed. Interestingly, Chris Atkinson judged her final leg with a b*$ch of a water test.

She never ran a 300 yd blind in a test but every so often we'd run one just to impress in her mind that the end of a blind is where the bird is, not after so many steps and then quit.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Now, Eric, if you ever have that problem again and Mr. Atkinson consents to the idea, send that toller up my way. We'll start her/him out on 15-yard sight blinds (as depicted) and gradually work out to about a half-mile just for the sake of a good swim and good listen for a whistle. 

We will also continue to address the value of those 30-yard blinds - _*very*_ valuable! - in case you're going to run your toller in AKC spaniel (also depicted), er, excuse me, run your toller in, pardon moi, AKC flushing dog tests!

Good story - and has me all amped about getting a training partner's toller pup into a little more watery frame of mind before the temps go below say 72°F.

MG




Eric Johnson said:


> I had a dog that had a problem. On blinds she just could not go beyond about 30 yards. It was like the old time Colgate commercials and the Gardol shield. She'd hit the 30 yd mark and start swimming circles. It was so bad that we retired her. About 2 years later we decided to try again but with a different pro. I was getting good reports but nothing really definitive. We just didn't talk about the gardol shield but she was progressing in her efforts on blinds. After about 3 months I received a photo in email with a circle up in the corner and the report that she was now doing 300 yd blinds and he was stopping there. Soon thereafter she became the first female HRCh of the breed. Interestingly, Chris Atkinson judged her final leg with a b*$ch of a water test.
> 
> She never ran a 300 yd blind in a test but every so often we'd run one just to impress in her mind that the end of a blind is where the bird is, not after so many steps and then quit.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The following is copied from Vinwoods Retrievers (Danny Farmers web site)

Starting Cold Blinds Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The ﬁrst thing I do after completing the double-T is to teach the dog handling and casting wagon wheel. This is a drill with eight bumpers spread out like a clock. You ﬁrst teach the dog to line each of the bumpers. The distance here is about an easy toss of a small white bumper away from the center point of the clock. Use white bumpers in short grass so the bumpers are easily visible to the dog. Work very hard to teach the dog to heel both clockwise and counterclockwise. Be very precise is staying exactly on your center pivot point. This will force you to make the dog heel with you, move with you, not you moving to the dog. Next teach casting wagon wheel. Same white bumpers and distance as lining wagon wheel. Start with three bumpers, the back and the two overs. This should be easy because the dog has just completed the double-T. The biggest change is that now you demand that the dog turn left on a left back and right on a right back. There should be no collar pressure on this drill. Either handle the dog or no him and recast to correct mistakes. If mistakes persist, mark the spot by tossing a bumper to the location of the cast he misses. Next add the two diagonal backs, one at a time. After the dog understands the left and right diagonal back, mix in straight backs and overs, always casting sequentially (back to diagonal back, diagonal back to straight back, diagonal back to over). Once the dog has mastered these ﬁve casts, add the left and right come-in over and straight come-in (you must move your position on the straight comein so you are behind the bumper). Concentrate on the ﬁve cast wagon wheel (back, diagonal backs, and overs). Once the dog has mastered the casting drill you are ready for your ﬁrst cold blind. Go to a plain ﬁeld, avoid complicated terrain, cover, etc. Place three blinds with three white bumpers at each blind about 150 to 200 yards from the starting line. Make these bumpers very wide spread. Send the dog for the middle blind. Do not attempt to ﬁne line the dog, just sit him down facing the general direction of the blind and kick him off. The dog, at this point in his training does not understand much, if anything, about being lined, so trying to get him to look out exactly where you want will only make him nervous. Just put your hand down and say back. The only pressure you want to use at this stage is to correct for a no go and to correct for not answering the whistle. Remember this is a very scary time for the dog. At this point his only exposure to "back" is the double-T and wagon wheel. In both cases he knows the location of where he is being sent. Now you are pointing him out in a big ﬁeld and demanding he charge out into the unknown. If the dogs heads out anywhere in a forward direction that is perfectly acceptable. At this point you handle the dog. Have a very wide corridor to your blind, you just want to get him to the blind any way you can. Your only concern is that the dog go somewhere when cast and that he stop on the whistle. Do not use collar pressure for anything other than not stopping or not going. Do not worry 
if the dog is slow and unsure at this stage, that is very normal. Speed will come when the dog becomes familiar with cold blinds. As the dog proceeds out toward the blind you follow him out in the ﬁeld. Although the blind is 150 to 200 yards away, you will be within 50 to 100 yards of the dog because you are walking out toward the blind as the dog is going away from you. At this stage you do everything possible to help the dog. Give big helpful casts, not the subtle casts you use for a more advanced dog. Once the dog gets the blind you stay out in the ﬁeld to receive him. Try to position yourself on line to the blind about half way between the starting point and the blind. Have the dog facing you and step ten to twenty yards away from the dog and cast him back toward the blind he just picked up. If he takes off and heads for the blind he just picked up let him go. If you need to handle him, that is OK. If this goes well then back up closer to the starting point and repeat the back cast. The reason you do these repeats by casting as opposed to lining is that casting momentum is something that needs to be developed at this stage. Usually a lack of momentum on casting is the weakest link at this point, so it is the thing we want to work on. If this ﬁrst blind is not overly troublesome, go ahead and do the second blind in the same manner. If the dog had lots of trouble on blind one quit for the day. It is very important that once you start cold blinds you do them every day (or at least 5 days a week) for a couple of weeks. Each day start with a short review of casting wagon wheel (5 bumper version) and then go directly to your cold blinds. Try to work up to 3-5 different blinds per day and faze out the repeats as the dog starts to do better. 
The reason I emphasize cold blinds as opposed to sight blinds or permanent blinds at this stage is that the fear of the unknown (a cold blind) is the biggest hurdle to be overcome. Starting cold blinds right after completing the double-T, where the dog was forced on back, forced en route and stopped on a whistle, gives you the tools you will need to transition to cold blinds. These tools needed to meet the usual stumbling blocks on blinds, not going, not stopping, and popping, are fresh in the dogs mind. This should help him to understand corrections he gets for those issues and bridge the gap between the known (the double-T) and the unknown (the cold blind). * The emphasis on cold blinds rather than permanent blinds or sight blinds is because I feel handling as opposed to lining is the key to a good blind running dog. * Lining and momentum will come as the dog gets comfortable with the cold blind environment. I want the dog to get comfortable taking 40 whistles on a blind at a young age, this will be more important in the long run. About Danny Farmer: Danny grew up with a love for dogs and training them has been a life long passion as well as helping others train and compete with their dogs. Since 1981 Danny has competed in every National Open. On average, he has qualiﬁed 5 dogs per year and tied the record for number of qualiﬁers with 9. Danny has won 3 National Opens. He holds the record for winning more Opens than any other professional trainer including an amazing 18 open wins in a row. Danny lives in Anderson Texas and retriever training continues to be his passion.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Above is from Vinwood retriever web page training tips. (Danny Farmer)

This method worked really well for us..Dog ebds up having many whistles,,and HANDELS well.. Focus is on Handling NOT Lining ..

Longer blinds help TEACH this.. Because ,,at first,, you are following the dog out


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

psduckman said:


> I do hunt and y'all have talked me into it!! I'm sure they are going to struggle! I'm thinking of teaching them in sections like I did when starting blind training. What do you think?


Go to Vinwoods Kennels website and watch the Master’s video on teaching cold blinds.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Running 300 yard marks is a step towards running 300 yard blinds. One helps with the other in my very humble opinion. Your marks and blinds should match distances?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

DL said:


> Your marks and blinds should match distances?


In the groups I train with the blinds are often, but not always, much longer than the marks.
One does help the other IMO. 
As always keep it balanced. You need to train on short, but challenging, marks as well or your dog will blow past short retired guns. This I know for a fact.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

psduckman said:


> Is it really necessary to teach 300 yard plus blinds for hunt test only dogs? I have 2 dogs 2 1/2 years old that both have 2 seasoned passes. My goal is to make it to HRCH with them. They are doing pretty well out to about 175 yards. I just was thinking too much as I usually do and the thought ran through my mind!??


Yea,but it's nice if you can.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

JMitchell said:


> .
> 
> Do you hunt? If you do learn to shoot so your dog doesn’t have to make 300 yard retrieves. Last year I took my kids to a pheasant preserve shoot. I am a great shot so I was cleaning up all the birds they missed. The last bird I said I am empty it’s up to you, my mistake. Well they wing tipped it and I set my dog on a blind retreive of 250 yards because I had a good mark on the bird. He ran to a fence across a ditch through a fence across a field to another fence to another field and I guided him to the bird. He got it his longest retreive according to google earth. 266 yards Moral of the story I shouldn’t have left it up to my kids we could have lost that bird.
> 
> Plus everywhere else we hunt a 200-300 retrieve is crazy because of terrain and cover make it impossible to cast your dog after 100 yards because they are out of sight. So why don’t you learn to shoot instead of spending all you time on 300 yards retrieves 😀 a 250 yard retrieve for me is a once every 5 or 6 year event and I hunt 60-70 times a year.


LOL My shooting is not a problem I assure you. Way to bring something constructive to the discussion. Not going to reply to the rest of your useless ramblings.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

JMitchell said:


> . Last year I took my kids to a pheasant preserve shoot.


Your a good dad for doing so. 
Preserve pheasants can make anyone look like a marksman. Shooting skill is irrelevant anyway. The point is to train dogs to their full potential rather than some limit set by a hunt test rule book.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

No comments on the HT requirements, not my bag.

I did find J Mitchel's post interesting(and amusing though for a different reason).


> _Plus everywhere else we hunt a 200-300 retrieve is crazy because of terrain and cover make it impossible to cast your dog after 100 yards because they are out of sight. So why don’t you learn to shoot instead of spending all you time on 300 yards retrieves 😀 a 250 yard retrieve for me is a once every 5 or 6 year event and I hunt 60-70 times a year._


I'm happy to believe that your circumstance are as you say, but remarkably they aren't the same as mine or many other forum members either. It's even just remotely possible that what you do isn't quite the norm for others.

See the pic below; the little black standy-up things are Guns on a driven pheasant day. The snap is taken from my usual picking up position where I'll have two or three dogs that can actually make 300 yard retrieves. I'm standing this far back because a pricked bird can easily fly past me into the wood at my back. 










It's rare in my experience that a long blind is truly a blind; if I've seen some part of it it so has the dog, but we often don't always see the actual pitch. The longest such that I've bothered to measure (only from large scale maps, not with a surveyors chain) is 450 metres on a tipped pheasant dropping into woodland, and a snipe about the same on a bog.

There is another way of measuring the length of a retrieve, a wristwatch. My "Jack" took the best part of 30 minutes to find a goose I'd hit that sailed on; it was at night, out of the sea in a half gale on the North Sea foreshore mind. Below, "Echo" handling at distance.






Eugene


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ken Barton said:


> Go to Vinwoods Kennels website and watch the Master’s video on teaching cold blinds.


Cant find video there anymore.. Can you help?


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Cant find video there anymore.. Can you help?


No video now but he has a narrative.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

If they are handling well out to 175 then just push them out to 200, 225 and so on. 

I would start on a relatively flat field in short cover without many factors. 

At longer distances be cognizant of your background and your attire. You want to be sure they can see you, especially if you are giving corrections.


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## psduckman (Oct 7, 2014)

This has been a very informative post! Thanks for all the replies! The long retrieve video was impressive. I'm finding it rather difficult to get a good confident swim on a long water blind with one of my pups. I've been doing walk around blinds and he really improves because he knows something is out there, but a true cold blind on water will sometimes result in a pop at the water's edge.Little victories!!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Bryan Parks said:


> You want to be sure they can see you


And give the dog time to find you before you handle. 

Be very careful with corrections. Many things to consider before you assume the dog is being disobedient.
As distance increases it becomes more difficult for the dog to see and read your signals.


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

drunkenpoacher said:


> And give the dog time to find you before you handle.
> 
> Be very careful with corrections. Many things to consider before you assume the dog is being disobedient.
> As distance increases it becomes more difficult for the dog to see and read your signals.


This - and it can get tough for them to hear your whistles at distance. Just a little wind rustling through the brush at that distance makes a difference.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

O.clarki said:


> This - and it can get tough for them to hear your whistles at distance. Just a little wind rustling through the brush at that distance makes a difference.


Yep, you have to get selective about when you stop a dog. Think about where you will or won't be able to stop and handle before you even send. if your dog gets to running water or heavy cover he probably won't hear a whistle and he isn't being bad for charging through it, just the opposite.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Here is an ancient Chinese saying:

Can a dog do a water blind if it has retrieved the same bird five times before as a mark? It probably can’t if it has a popping issue that could have been prevented by running it five times before as a mark.

I hope you don’t mind me putting it that way. It is a very funny way to put it. It is in all likelihood an inaccurate depiction of reality. It is like one of those things that isn’t true but is true.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

psduckman said:


> Is it really necessary to teach 300 yard plus blinds for hunt test only dogs? I have 2 dogs 2 1/2 years old that both have 2 seasoned passes. My goal is to make it to HRCH with them. They are doing pretty well out to about 175 yards. I just was thinking too much as I usually do and the thought ran through my mind!??


Can't comment on Hunt test Only dogs or the rules ....
Don't know the exact distance in this one either , but it is common on a Field trial where Heather is as high as the knee and unforgiving with factors of terrain and not forgetting residual scent and draw of potentially live game on route ..But this one certainly is conditioned to the Stop whistle and both Right and Left Hand Back to get to the Target area on Blind . Including all the rustles in the wind and notice all the handlers,judges,spectators helpers and entourage are not wearing one bit of white . (Chris Atkinson ) ...get yer kilt out ! .
ps. Thank You Juli . 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3g..._3kl1YtzkDFCyNh1CMxutp2uAJGgDm9NKtBYeyBDweR3M


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I am not impressed. 

Sorry, but that is not a blind retrieve. It is a dog running all over a hillside, eventually recovering a bird. 

I've seen this video before.-Paul


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

paul young said:


> I am not impressed.
> 
> Sorry, but that is not a blind retrieve. It is a dog running all over a hillside, eventually recovering a bird.
> 
> I've seen this video before.-Paul


Really? Have you got a dog that can do better? That dog is working its ass off on that hillside. Take a look how steep it is - there are a couple of times at least where the dog is practically climbing rocky outcroppings or holding a sidehill that is very steep. Not to mention the dog gets on a live bird early on (if you can read the dog's body language you will know this) ...I think it is important that folks this side of the pond remember the handler has only an 'idea' of where the bird is. The last 3 or 4 whistles, the handler was trying to get the dog downwind of where the bird might be, most likely (I am sure Robert could tell us) There is not an orange stake in the ground to mark the location. What the hell, it's an actual hunting situation!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Many many times,a hunting blind is way different than a training/test blind. There isnt a flag or a stake. Someone hasn't placed a bird.. You only have a general idea where a bird fell,, or the bird may be able to move from where it fell.(cripple).. You just handel dog to area, and then a hunt em up is required.. The dog is 300 yrds away, they can smell em you cant, . You try to simple position the dog down wind of where you THINK bird fell,,and let the dog take over.... Its still a Blind!! A bird the dog didn't mark or see fall.. Video is amazing..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

A Blind involved in training/Testing is a control bird... The best blind retrieve dogs are very comfortable being HANDLED... They cast well,,and they have a lot of whistles in them... If you read how Farmer does it, and how he stresses handeling over lining,,, this is what you end up with.. Long true cold blinds early right after the yard following the dog out, and only correcting on a sit refusal,,works really well... You teach the dog to HANDEL..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dogs get good at running blind by running a LOT ,,a LOT of long blinds with challenging factors,,, Lining will eventually come,,but TEACH handling..


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

paul young said:


> I am not impressed.
> 
> Sorry, but that is not a blind retrieve. It is a dog running all over a hillside, eventually recovering a bird.
> 
> I've seen this video before.-Paul


You are entitled to your opinion ,even when you are wrong.
.......
The Kennel Club Panel judges and gallery who witnessed it would have a different opinion. -Robert


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

polmaise said:


> paul young said:
> 
> 
> > I am not impressed.
> ...


Paul is not wrong, at least not by AKC field trial standards. A dog has to be under control on a blind retrieve. 300 to 500 yard blinds with multiple factors are quite common. More often than not will be a poison bird, which the dog in the video would have picked up.

I don’t think anyone here means to offend. If that’s the standard where you run that’s fine but the dog would not be competitive in an AKC trial.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> Really? Have you got a dog that can do better? That dog is working its ass off on that hillside. Take a look how steep it is - there are a couple of times at least where the dog is practically climbing rocky outcroppings or holding a sidehill that is very steep. Not to mention the dog gets on a live bird early on (if you can read the dog's body language you will know this) ...I think it is important that folks this side of the pond remember the handler has only an 'idea' of where the bird is. The last 3 or 4 whistles, the handler was trying to get the dog downwind of where the bird might be, most likely (I am sure Robert could tell us) There is not an orange stake in the ground to mark the location. What the hell, it's an actual hunting situation!


I have no ideas of the rules across the pond.
But if I take your word for it that the Handler has an "idea"of where the bird is ........that was not even close to a good blind


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> I have no ideas of the rules across the pond.
> But if I take your word for it that the Handler has an "idea"of where the bird is ........that was not even close to a good blind


The dog in the video Is a very valuable hunting companion... Would you hunt with this dog??? I certainly would..

Quote: AKC running rules retrievers..
Section 1. Purpose. The purpose of a Hunting Test for Retrievers is to test the merits of and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers in the field in order to determine their suitability and ability as hunting companions. Hunting Tests must, therefore, simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a true hunting situation.


I think,, sometimes the Purpose gets lost in the subjectivity of HOW


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

MooseGooser said:


> The dog in the video Is a very valuable hunting companion... Would you hunt with this dog??? I certainly would..
> 
> Quote: AKC running rules retrievers..
> Section 1. Purpose. The purpose of a Hunting Test for Retrievers is to test the merits of and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers in the field in order to determine their suitability and ability as hunting companions. Hunting Tests must, therefore, simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a true hunting situation.
> ...


I'd hunt with him only if he was the only Dog available.
When I'm hunting I want the dog to get the bird and get back as quickly as possible.
The bird was on the right side of that hill side, that dog covered the entire Hillside to get to the bird.
Not only did he unnecessarily. Disturb many acres of cover on the way out he also did it on the way back.
Let me correct myself no I would not hunt with that dog under any circumstances.
I'd rather not hunt at all then have to hunt with a dog that unnecessarily blows up an entire Hillside; could could have potentially held three or four or more limits of birds that he unnecessarily flushed and ran off


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> I'd hunt with him only if he was the only Dog available.
> When I'm hunting I want the dog to get the bird and get back as quickly as possible.
> The bird was on the right side of that hill side, that dog covered the entire Hillside to get to the bird.
> Not only did he unnecessarily. Disturb many acres of cover on the way out he also did it on the way back.
> ...



So with regards to a scenario... YOU,, only YOU saw the bird fall.. You kinda have a general idea where the bird fell... BUT a surprise to you, you didn't consider,, the bird isn't dead, and crawled its way to where that dog picked it up... he had to "HUNT IT UP" ..

That bird you know for sure had bling!! He brought it back!! He and I are going to dairy queen on the way home.. He brought back a bird, that most certainly would have been lost... The definition,, of that conservation tool,,, which gets talked about so much.. The dog defines the purpose of that hunt test program..

Yoy could have spent a bunch of time arrogantly handling he dog back to where the bid fell,,and demand he stay there by handling him back each time he left! The bird aint there! 

This is just a doofus's Humble opinion..  Doofus's are nothin to get your panties in a wad about.. ...


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I would love to see a GE image of this blind. From my perspective the dog stayed in a pretty well defined corridor. You have to remember from the handler's position.... which, if you watch to the very end, is quite a different perspective of the camera man's position.

I think US FTers (at least some of the ones on here) truly have a holier than thou attitude. It is very unfortunate.

I'd love for any of those who have responded to post up a video of a blind of equal caliber and circumstances... including planted live birds along the line to the blind (oh, and don't flush those birds, you'll be dropped from competition, for sure).... BUT I suspect none has the balls to do so.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I would love to see a GE image of this blind. From my perspective the dog stayed in a pretty well defined corridor. You have to remember from the handler's position.... which, if you watch to the very end, is quite a different perspective of the camera man's position.
> 
> I think US FTers (at least some of the ones on here) truly have a holier than thou attitude. It is very unfortunate.
> 
> I'd love for any of those who have responded to post up a video of a blind of equal caliber and circumstances... including planted live birds along the line to the blind (oh, and don't flush those birds, you'll be dropped from competition, for sure).... BUT I suspect none has the balls to do so.


The standard "Canned" or taught answer you will get is,, Trialing and testing has nothing to do with hunting... Each are different topics... if so,, rule books need re written..


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

MooseGooser said:


> The standard "Canned" or taught answer you will get is,, Trialing and testing has nothing to do with hunting... Each are different topics... if so,, rule books need re written..


 I don't think the rulebook(s) need to be re written. What floors me is that some people this side of the pond try to impose 'their' standards of judgement on the work done to the standards of a completely different genre of retriever work. Instead of just shutting the F up. 

I will be awaiting videos.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> There is not an orange stake in the ground to mark the location.


You are talking pretty cocky to some very experienced judges and accomplished competitors who have far more than a single SH. Hope you don't think every AKC trial has an orange stake at the end. Our blinds are not about game finding but about control. Two different games. If you try game finding you will find out just how far you will get


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Paul is not wrong, at least not by AKC field trial standards. A dog has to be under control on a blind retrieve. 300 to 500 yard blinds with multiple factors are quite common. More often than not will be a poison bird, which the dog in the video would have picked up.
> 
> I don’t think anyone here means to offend. If that’s the standard where you run that’s fine but the dog would not be competitive in an AKC trial.


Perhaps too much Mulled wine and trespassing on another's Field Sir'. No offence.
Paul Is wrong ,it was a blind.
Correct in pointing out that it was Not an AKC trial .You got that one right  however, used in explanation to assist the in the original post to get the dog handling further on Blinds than 150 yards (and they are in the Sport of 'Hunt Tests' -------- The use of Stop whistle with Right and Left hand backs would get the dog the distance required . 
.....
A team of AKC Handlers descended upon our shores some years ago in competition 'Working Test' with bumpers ..They never made the cut ...
Sorry ,the video clip was not displayed for conjecture of what it would be like in AKC trial or even a Hunt test scenario. merely go the distance and be handled to do so.But carry on pontificating .


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

polmaise said:


> Perhaps too much Mulled wine and trespassing on another's Field Sir'. No offence.
> Paul Is wrong ,it was a blind.
> Correct in pointing out that it was Not an AKC trial .You got that one right  however, used in explanation to assist the in the original post to get the dog handling further on Blinds than 150 yards (and they are in the Sport of 'Hunt Tests' -------- The use of Stop whistle with Right and Left hand backs would get the dog the distance required .
> .....
> ...



As far as I know, you are the first Scot I have unintentionally offended, I'll check that of my list. 
Enjoy your hunts, your dogs and the sport as you play it.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> You are talking pretty cocky to some very experienced judges and accomplished competitors who have far more than a single SH. Hope you don't think every AKC trial has an orange stake at the end. Our blinds are not about game finding but about control. Two different games. If you try game finding you will find out just how far you will get


Yes Nancy you are correct! I really have no business stating my opinion on a public forum board... 

I have run many tests.. Some have a marker at the blinds some didn't. 

I have run IN TRAINING,, Way longer blinds that what HT rule books state as max..

if you really read my list of dogs in signature line,, you will see current dog is HRCH ,Master hunter.. Yes Only one of them.. I know it doesn't mean much....To folks like you... That's OK with me..


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Geez Gooser, did I quote YOU? NO


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Many many times,a hunting blind is way different than a training/test blind. There isnt a flag or a stake. Someone hasn't placed a bird.. You only have a general idea where a bird fell,, or the bird may be able to move from where it fell.(cripple).. You just handel dog to area, and then a hunt em up is required.. The dog is 300 yrds away, they can smell em you cant, . You try to simple position the dog down wind of where you THINK bird fell,,and let the dog take over.... Its still a Blind!! A bird the dog didn't mark or see fall.. Video is amazing..


Nancy!!! Here is what I said.. 

How about the first guy One a those experienced AKC judges you talk about who said a pretty disparaging remark about the long retrieve video.. What about singling him out... Instead of us lowly SH's with one dog...

That guy is VERY good at tossing grenades' then running.. for cover... a very arrogant person .. I have been the recipient of him and other "EXPERIENCE" types here for years!! Some have said some pretty incredible things..

I don't have pelts! I have basically 1 dog at a time... They are with me till they die, no matter how talented they are.. They aren't kennel dogs.. They sleep at the foot of my bed. They do occationally hunt.. I use to enjoy hunt tests.. I stopped running them... If you are interested, I will happily share with you in private.. THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Similar but not the same


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I am fortunate to have some great training mentors. One of the first things I learned was to not even suggest putting a marker on a blind.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Similar but not the same


Well since you wont be direct! I'll answer since I am similar... Who posted the remark you quoted? I can find it. I can only find MY comment about a stake..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Drunkenpoacher said this "I am fortunate to have some great training mentors. One of the first things I learned was to not even suggest putting a marker on a blind. "​


In training groups I attend, they don't either!! TESTS I have run have had markers.. They could be small oragnge tape tied close to ground.. they can be a pole.. They can be a clump of weeds that was pointed out at handlers meeting. I have seen a plastic sunflower purchased from Michaels.. The bird is always there! (Unless they didn't plant it)

I have run tests where no marker was placed,, or pointed out a bush or something at handlers meetings... BUT .. DONT YOU PERSONALLY PICK A MARKER OUT to help you when you run??..

Don't you do the same when you train??? Don't you have some mental marker where the bird is?

You do this too when you hunt!! You mentally mark where the bird fell... My POINT is,, MAYBE,, Just MAYBE when you hunt,,, the bird isn't there! You may have marked it wrong... OR the bird wasn't dead and crawled off (A cripple) 

when you hunt,, you could stand there all morning, handling to where you THINK the bird is,, but it aint there! maybe the dog finally ignors you, and runs 40 yards to right and picks it up!! SURPRISE!! All you accomplished is fillin yer whistle full of breakfast doughnut..


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Similar But Not the same ..Just for Fun...
In Training ..Going to where the dog Knows where to go ..with a Bit of 'Push and Pull' ..and hey Presto ...You can use the Stop whistle ,to get the result ...well after all this is North Wisconosins Park in Fife Scotland . Ifa Cocker can do it ,a pure born Bona Fide Retriever can ?..Shame the Springer learned more through Failure than the exuberant Pocket Rocket ....even with Propulsion.
Look forward to them Videos of those who have Trained their Dogs and other folks dogs Juli 
Rather than the Finished article with Ribbons and all. 
Strewth..It's Go and stop if it aint on the right line and handle to the fall ..Simples ..The distance looks good with No factors .
Every one to their own . Enjoy,The training is the fun part honest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yZgOS3HNVY&feature=youtu.be


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Stop kidding ourselves...

FT and even HT blinds are not the same as a true hunting blind. 

However, the training and skills required to run HT and FT blinds are extremely valuable in a hunting dog...

In true hunting situations you rarely know exactly where the bird is and in many cases with crippled birds they may be far from where they went down. 

A dog that can track and search for downed game is valuable and a skill that is learned from real world hunting experience. 

From what I understand about British FTs they are evaluating that skill above complete control. 

A great handling dog might be good at test and trial blinds but may not have the experience or possibly skill to search for downed game on a true hunting type blind. 

And for sure a dog that hasn't been trained to run blinds like we do here in the states will not be successful running a blind the way we require. 

For me personally I believe a dog trained to the highest standards we have in our FTs and HTs will have what it takes to become a great hunting dog with experience

That is why I try to train to our highest standards we have here and then through real world hunting experience I have found those skills translate nicely over time to true hunting situations.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Polomise I have alwaysreally enjoyed you videos... Its very interesting to se how others work.. 

Some here should review this"

*AKC CODE OF SPORTSMANSHIP*

_*PREFACE: *The sport of purebred dog competitive events dates prior to 1884, the year of AKC’s birth. Shared values of those involved in the sport include principles of sportsmanship. They are practiced in all sectors of our sport: conformation, performance and companion. Many believe that these principles of sportsmanship are the prime reason why our sport has thrived for over one hundred years. With the belief that it is useful to periodically articulate the fundamentals of our sport, this code is presented. _

Sportsmen respect the history, traditions and integrity of the sport of purebred dogs.
Sportsmen commit themselves to values of fair play, honesty, courtesy, and vigorous competition, as well as winning and losing with grace.
Sportsmen refuse to compromise their commitment and obligation to the sport of purebred dogs by injecting personal advantage or consideration into their decisions or behavior.
The sportsman judge judges only on the merits of the dogs and considers no other factors.
The sportsman judge or exhibitor accepts constructive criticism.
The sportsman exhibitor declines to enter or exhibit under a judge where it might reasonably appear that the judge’s placements could be based on something other than the merits of the dogs.
The sportsman exhibitor refuses to compromise the impartiality of a judge.
The sportsman respects the AKC bylaws, rules, regulations and policies governing the sport of purebred dogs.
Sportsmen find that vigorous competition and civility are not inconsistent and are able to appreciate the merit of their competition and the effort of competitors.
Sportsmen welcome, encourage and support newcomers to the sport.
Sportsmen will deal fairly with all those who trade with them.
Sportsmen are willing to share honest and open appraisals of both the strengths and weaknesses of their breeding stock.
Sportsmen spurn any opportunity to take personal advantage of positions offered or bestowed upon them.
Sportsmen always consider as paramount the welfare of their dog.
Sportsmen refuse to embarrass the sport, the American Kennel Club, or themselves while taking part in the sport.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> Stop kidding ourselves...
> 
> FT and even HT blinds are not the same as a true hunting blind.
> 
> ...


What the rule book states is the hunt test programs purpose..

I do respect your OPINION however..

Quote: AKC running rules retrievers..​Section 1. Purpose. The purpose of a Hunting Test for Retrievers is to test the merits of and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers in the field in order to determine their suitability and ability as hunting companions. Hunting Tests must, therefore, simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a true hunting situation.


​


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Moose, the rules can say all they want but I've never seen them shackle a duck, throw it in marsh full of cattails, tell you "it's over there somewhere", get your dog to go find it..."

There are some venues in the states that do..

I'm not saying the skills we evaluate aren't valuable but I'm sorry, our FT and even HT system does not replicate a true hunt..


Again I want to stress, our HT and FT systems do evaluate skills that translate to MOST hunting situations but they do not replicate them.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Classic RTF, A relatively new guy asks a simple question and over the course of 5 days it turns into a whizzing match so far from the original question if you only read the first and the last post you would not know they were related.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Ed,

They are caving in to the factors. It isn't a teenager sent to the mailbox but, not much different.

Tom


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> I am not impressed.
> 
> Sorry, but that is not a blind retrieve. It is a dog running all over a hillside, eventually recovering a bird.
> 
> I've seen this video before.-Paul



This arrogance right there is the problem.... Ive been on the receiving end of crap like that for years here. It infuriates me now... Respect is a two way street.... 

Doofus regards..

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The video might not be a blind retrieve as we define it... They might do things differently. Dog stopped on a whistle, and took casts.. at a great distance.. over unbelievable terrain.. It (video) answered the OP's question..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What was the comment about someone with justa 1 dog with a SH title about??? Who cares??? People assume a SH cant run a 300 yrd blind? without a stake or a marker?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dis respectful BS..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> What was the comment about with regards to someone some one owning just 1 dog with a SH title about??? Who cares??? People assume a SH cant run a 300 yrd blind? without a stake or a marker?


 Is the topic of retriever TRAINING only about ones success acquiring ribbons or HT and FT Titles?? What about the guy that sits on a slough, and regularly drops ducks 35 yrds away belly up in the decoys.. or the guy who has his dog down in a pit blind,covered up,and just runs blinds after the shootin stops.. They train!!! and I personally know several who don't have a ribbon or a Title on the wall.. Their dogs are a joy to hunt with.. Are they to be demeaned here???

Some folks here that just assume that when a guy comes on RTF and says his dog just HUNTS, >>>, IMHO<< they better be careful with their assumptions.. Those folks don't care about some organizations rule book, what chair they sit in.. they just train dogs and hunt..... JUST!! THAT!!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I am fortunate to have some great training mentors. One of the first things I learned was to not even suggest putting a marker on a blind.


This was not meant as a criticism of anyone. I put markers out when training alone sometimes. I've learned to put them near the blind as a point of reference rather than right on it. Dogs will sometimes spot ribbons, flags, etc depending on the lighting.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> This arrogance right there is the problem.... Ive been on the receiving end of crap like that for years here. It infuriates me now... Respect is a two way street....
> 
> Doofus regards..
> 
> Gooser


I'm sorry I infuriated You.

It's just my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Back when I had the places to hunt and the time to do it, I hunted waterfowl and upland game around 130-140 days per year and Judged or ran in trials or Hunt tests every weekend that I could. I worked nights then. My dogs ran and swam more than their fair share of long blinds while hunting. They did not even remotely resemble what was shown in that video. 

I don't have videos of my dogs. Too busy hunting and running them for that. Besides, I don't feel the need to prove anything to you or anyone else on here. Those that have hunted with me, judged my dogs or been judged by me know just who I am.

Just because I don't post a dozen or more times on a single topic on this forum doesn't mean I am " throwing a hand grenade and running away". I just say what I think and let it go at that. I own up to what say. I always sign my name. Hard to run away when you do that.

I'm done on this topic. Carry on. -Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> I'm sorry I infuriated You.
> 
> It's just my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Back when I had the places to hunt and the time to do it, I hunted waterfowl and upland game around 130-140 days per year and Judged or ran in trials or Hunt tests every weekend that I could. I worked nights then. My dogs ran and swam more than their fair share of long blinds while hunting. They did not even remotely resemble what was shown in that video.
> 
> ...



That works both way Young! Its a two way street! I have nothin to prove to you,,ANNND I have an opinion too!

maybe you should consider it how you come across..

Since I came back..

Your ridiculous comment about judges just needed to have a couple dozen hay bales brought in to hide bird stations.. Your simplistic comment about a stake in the ground and a single wrap of a rope teachin a dog to sit on a whistle.... I can find a LOT of other examples.. YOU arnt the only notoriety that does this either.. You types do it to bait!!! Then you come back and make some dis honest apology.. You have shown your colors..

There"s more to life and owning a dog,, than bein a HT or FT Judge. There is more to life than Ribbons and silver plates.. 

You are remembered by how you carry yourself..

Belittling people, dis- respecting or criticizing someone elses work is poor form.. Name calling, minimising others accomplishments ect, has been common practice here for a LONG time.. a LOT of folks have left this board because of it... Smug,, arrogant types laughed and said don't let the door hit ya in the ass.. called them names...

I don't accept your insincere apology.. 


Mike Baker


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

For someone to say they are not impressed is to state they are indifferent to it. It is neutral. If they are truly not impressed, it is statement of fact. Some people are more matter of fact than others. Some people get infuriated by it. That is a fact, lol.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

if I say I am not impressed with something someone has done, in my opinion, means I did not respect their achievement or work. (That it was substandard from my perspective). 

And it is not a statement of fact - it is a statement of opinion.

That blinds are run differently one side of the pond to the other doesn't mean we can't be impressed (or have respect) for the work shown. It really isn't that difficult. Although having knowledge of the differences and understanding and respecting those differences is probably a good idea.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

It can be a fact and an opinion. There are many possibilities. Some opinions can be uniformed. Sometimes, it can be lack of coddling or encouragement. Being matter of fact will loose you a job. You can’t be matter of fact if someone is your superior. It is multifaceted.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Eug.,

That video was fricken awesome! That dog was doing what it was bred to do. Game conservation at its best! With enthusiasm and came back looking for more. I’m with Gooser....ribbons aren’t the be all end all. I don’t hunt but I train with the original purpose in mind. You don’t have to do 300 yard blinds, but I do. If they can handle those, and handle ON those, they can do anything. 


Sue Puff


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

To the OP (if you're still around...)
I consider running extra long blinds the same way Ben Hogan viewed hitting a golf ball 300 yards (was probably 200 yds in his day, but that game has evolved, too).
He said something like: "You may not need it often, but you know you've got it in the bag if you ever do".


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Depending on how you train, I think you end up traiing what that dog does in the video out of a dog. Granted, I haven’t even watched the video. I don’t train it out of the dog myself but I am a dog whisperer, ha, ha.

Mike Lardy himself says in a video that the dogs learn to not take an over. I am sure I am misquoting him to a degree but the phenomenon does exist and it is mentioned. That could be a reason not to teach 300 yard blinds like everyone does it if you focus on hunting. I would say that if a dog can’t take an over that is also a sign of lack of control. That is obviously true in the literal sense. If a dog doesn’t do what is asked, you aren’t controlling the dog. It just doesn’t go along with game as it is played.

Granted, I know little. But .... it seems ironic that the question is whether to teach something that untrains what is shown in a video as an example as the end result.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Puppies (meaning dogs under a year) can learn to do long sight blinds. I had a rather new Lab owner, come over with his dog from his son bred to my stud who at 9 months was telling me his dog was already doing long blinds, especially up hill. He explained how the trainer taught him. I respectfully explained he might want to look for a trainer who had an established program and why. He did, he went on to earn an MH and MN plates. Some dogs can line very well. Big difference of a blind negotiating obstacles and one up a hill done over and over. 

https://vimeo.com/287115601?fbclid=IwAR1Y3E7gjDREcaiXbpzYdzdwNdZv6r1OPcA2QlC78bvMKrLXPbWQEa2MLrY


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I guess someone can tell me if this is true or not:

When blinds are easy, a dog that holds a tight line is all that is needed to keep it out of trouble.

When blinds are hard, the dog needs to be able to change direction when it gets in trouble

When a blind is near impossible, the dog needs some independence to pull the cat out of the bag.

It seems like it must be true. Some people want to follow rules. Some people dream of pulling a cat out of a bag however remote. A cat is beautiful creature if even in a dream?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

psduckman said:


> I do hunt and y'all have talked me into it!! I'm sure they are going to struggle! I'm thinking of teaching them in sections like I did when starting blind training. What do you think?


The OP was convinced about training on long blinds in post 5.
The reward for working on long blinds (and marks) will be a more confident, more obedient, better handling retriever with a great training attitude.
I also believe a happy retriever is a retriever that is both challenged and successful in training.


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