# Training a retreiver puppy by Hillmann ?



## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

for those of you who are familiar, how far does the video go in the development of the pup. It is quite pricey and also wanted to know if it is worth the $$$


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Hopefully someone can post the contents or something to let you know how far it goes.

I'll say this about the $$$...

Buying a quality product and getting the right start for your pup at $129 is so much cheaper than fixing problems that develop from trying to save money with inferior or less complete products.

A quality training program is an investment in your puppy.

Plus, you can likely sell the think used in a few months for $90-100. So net cost will be $30-40. Think about it.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

arklahunter said:


> for those of you who are familiar, how far does the video go in the development of the pup. It is quite pricey and also wanted to know if it is worth the $$$


It stops at about the point in the dogs training where in a Carr based program flowchart you would be doing the back pile work.......I loved how he got the pup there and I can't wait for the follow up to that DVD.

Yes, it is quite pricey, but the value is in its ability to reach this point and stiil have "ALL" the dog there that you began with............

john


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

my pup is 13weeks. been working with her but looking for a solid system. is it too late to start her on this


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

arklahunter said:


> my pup is 13weeks. been working with her but looking for a solid system. is it too late to start her on this


Not at all........


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## Hotchocolate (Jun 24, 2011)

The Hillman puppy training video brings the pup up to doing steady doubles.And lays the foundation for force fetch.You will have a nice dog on completion without any negative issues .Well worth the money..


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## jerrod denton (Jul 17, 2010)

I just ordered it from what i hear its worth every dime


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

I am about 2 weeks into it with my pup who will be 4 months next week! She has been doing fantastic and I really like the program! If the pup does not pick up on a days lesson just repeat it and work at your own pace as it is not a race! I can throw a mark and my pup won't move till released! No pressure at all just fun learning for the dog! Worth the money and can resell as mentioned!!! Really looking forward to getting into basics with this pup as he will be more than ready!

Chris


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Just ordered it... I guess if i'm going to do this myself no sense skimping on the most important part... Still less than half of one month with a trainer


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Got the complate set for Chtistmas from my wife. 

Looking forward to trying it with the new puppy this spring. 

Everyone I have talked to about the program has spoken highly of it.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

just out of curiosity? what are the other peices of the complete set?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I thought it was a great DVD to use some of the begining techniques on your pup. Much different approach. Because it was much different it was hard for me to apply and fit in my humble program, but I did manage to use some techniques on my youngest, Chief. I guess I had a set way of training my pups already. Most of what I learned came from Lori Jolly's book Motivational Training for the Field. Hillman's key goal is to Build desire into the pup to retrieve. It is for pups. I still think you need to move on to Lardy's, Voigt's or Stawski's DVD's and Lori's book for more training techniques and concepts.These are my 4 main DVDs I continuously refer to!! Hillman's is well worth viewing however. I confess I rented it through BowWow as I have already over bought this year on DVDs but will purchase it yet to add to my library.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

The link is www.bowwowflix.com

john


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I thought it was a great DVD to use some of the begining techniques on your pup. Much different approach. Because it was much different it was hard for me to apply and fit in my humble program, but I did manage to use some techniques on my youngest, Chief. I guess I had a set way of training my pups already. Most of what I learned came from Lori Jolly's book Motivational Training for the Field. Hillman's key goal is to Build desire into the pup to retrieve. It is for pups. I still think you need to move on to Lardy's, Voigt's or Stawski's DVD's and Lori's book for more training techniques and concepts.These are my 4 main DVDs I continuously refer to!! Hillman's is well worth viewing however. I confess I rented it through BowWow as I have already over bought this year on DVDs but will purchase it yet to add to my library.


My impression is that it is much more focused on teaching a pup to sit and earn the retrieve than other approaches. I have not watched the entire DVD as I did not have a pup. Every time I have started watching it, I end up waking up around an hour later. ;-)


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## Hotchocolate (Jun 24, 2011)

Buzz said:


> My impression is that it is much more focused on teaching a pup to sit and earn the retrieve than other approaches. I have not watched the entire DVD as I did not have a pup. Every time I have started watching it, I end up waking up around an hour later. ;-)


 Get a pup that will keep you awake. I think my pup has watched the whole DVD from my lap..She seemed to enjoy it..
It actually is much more in depth and introduces the pup to many different aspects which make advanced work that much easier.. Think of it as a head start program.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

I asked the question earlier, but appologize that I didn't quite understand the answer. What all does the video teach. I will find out soon, but was wondering what will the dog be capable of at the completion. What sort of commands does he introduce? What obedience is tought?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

arklahunter said:


> I asked the question earlier, but appologize that I didn't quite understand the answer. What all does the video teach. I will find out soon, but was wondering what will the dog be capable of at the completion. What sort of commands does he introduce? What obedience is tought?


So first thing Hillman says is there are 3 things you want your pup to do: 1. chase something, 2.walk on a line and he does not mean heeling perfectly 3. teach him to sit. As I said he wants to pup to develop desire. Hillman stresses patience, kindness and understanding. There is plenty of obedience in each session. Usually he did these sessions with the pup in the morning when the pup was ready to go and only once a day. He says it is important the pup learns to become a family member rest of the day. The sessions are not stressful to the dog. Stresses you should be persistent with the command "sit". There were 28 days of training as I remember. The pup is taught sit, and while the pup is sitting and as the pup progresses you start to walk around the pup (maintaining sit) and walk further away from the pup and he becomes more steady. I practiced this with my pup and it works well, but you have to be persistent and consistent. Alot of praise goes with each session. He introduces pup to water, water marks, heeling both sides, practice sit with a bumper, introduced the pup to a clipped wing, and teaches you his term traffic cop where he keeps the pup from retrieving then gives the okay to retrieve, starts on Day 10 "hold" , does baby doubles, Day 21 Force Fetch with E collar on low (Ecollar has been on well before this), uses a bird boy to throw and shoot. I used the traffic cop but learned this from Voigt's DVD where he teaches stand alones while you go out and throw. Hillman comes back into his dog, praises him for a good job and then go back out (trafic cop) and sends him. Whole idea to teach steadiness. Works well!
Excellent DVD and I am not going to tell you much more, but it is worthwhile viewing. And this is my translation of what I viewed. Like I said I am going to get the DVD to add to my library. Praise is a big part of the teaching! Good luck


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mary Lynn!

That was an excellent synopsis!!!

DVD is worth every penny.

I think it teaches "a way of life" ,,and the dog doesnt even know its learning.
Its an excellent DVD 
What I liked is it is actual 28 days of training. There are no staged set-ups, remakes or edits. Its what happened THAT DAY.

There is also no boring lecture time. Its all watchin a puppy progress(very well i might add) in a 28 day time period.


Gooser


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Just curious, but would the end result of the program be considered a started dog? If not what would constitute a started dog. I am new to this so I have more Q's than answers at this point.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

arklahunter said:


> Just curious, but would the end result of the program be considered a started dog? If not what would constitute a started dog. I am new to this so I have more Q's than answers at this point.


What constitutes a started dog varies greatly depending on who you ask. Try searching for other threads.

Some folks call a started dog one that can heel to the line on lead, is lead steady (you hold collar or lead), do simple single retrieves on land and water, will deliver to the area of the line. These are the basic requirements for an HRC Started Title. AKC Junior Hunter requirements are similar except require delivery to hand and now require heeling to line off lead. So there are some folks that would call this a started dog.

Others, including myself, would think more in terms of a dog that has been through basics and is doing some basic handling.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

In my opinion,,,,

I think a puppy at the end of that Video is a puppy that is ready( Very well prepared) for structured FORMAL training.
In other words,, a puppy that an owner that may be sending a puppy to a Pro would be able to hold their head high and say they had worked some with the PUP.
Gooser


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Sorry to be so ignorant, but I am not sure what you mean by formal training. I have read waterdog and a watched a couple of dvd's but they seem to general and basically say get the dog to do this and that, but not really a step by step process so I am hoping that Hillman's video will be better. I am not quite familiar with the terminology. What constitutes informal training. I know it sounds like a stupid question, but I hear those terms bantered around, but not quite sure what they mean.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> In my opinion,,,,
> 
> I think a puppy at the end of that Video is a puppy that is ready( Very well prepared) for structured FORMAL training.
> In other words,, a puppy that an owner that may be sending a puppy to a Pro would be able to hold their head high and say they had worked some with the PUP.
> Gooser


Agree Gooser.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

I guess I may be asking too generalized question. I have seen entire training programs for the price of the Hillman video. Seems like a pretty high price to pay to just get a dog ready to send to the trainer. Since I have decided to train myself and with the help of some other experienced individuals it's a high price for a video that teaches a dog to sit. What makes the video so special? And what is formal training? I assume that many have done this without a trainer so what do you suggest after the hillman video other than just sending the dog to a trainer.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

arklahunter said:


> I guess I may be asking too generalized question. I have seen entire training programs for the price of the Hillman video. Seems like a pretty high price to pay to just get a dog ready to send to the trainer. Since I have decided to train myself and with the help of some other experienced individuals it's a high price for a video that teaches a dog to sit. What makes the video so special? And what is formal training? I assume that many have done this without a trainer so what do you suggest after the hillman video other than just sending the dog to a trainer.


To answer your question "What makes the video so special?", especially if you are going to train the dog yourself, is that Bill's method creates a new understanding in the dog's mind of the 'sit' command.

Using Bill's method of teaching the 'sit' command properly to your pup from day 1 will eliminate the need for you to visit the RTF forum and search for this word.....CREEPING!

That one fact is worth its weight in gold!


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

arklahunter said:


> Sorry to be so ignorant, but I am not sure what you mean by formal training. I have read waterdog and a watched a couple of dvd's but they seem to general and basically say get the dog to do this and that, but not really a step by step process so I am hoping that Hillman's video will be better. I am not quite familiar with the terminology. What constitutes informal training. I know it sounds like a stupid question, but I hear those terms bantered around, but not quite sure what they mean.


Formal training......Smartworks flow chart....or you can look at Lardy's on the banner add at the top of the page.

http://www.rushcreekpress.com/flowchart.html


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Let's support some of our RTF Sponsors here........

Mike Lardy's flow chart has been a standard for most successful retriever trainers for years

http://www.totalretriever.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=102

Bill Hillmann posts free video clips on YouTube often at

http://www.youtube.com/user/hawkeyemedianet

Train for success by following programs that are successful!


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks Tammy!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

arklahunter said:


> I guess I may be asking too generalized question. I have seen entire training programs for the price of the Hillman video. Seems like a pretty high price to pay to just get a dog ready to send to the trainer. Since I have decided to train myself and with the help of some other experienced individuals it's a high price for a video that teaches a dog to sit. What makes the video so special? And what is formal training? I assume that many have done this without a trainer so what do you suggest after the hillman video other than just sending the dog to a trainer.


I suggest you get the Hillman DVD then add to it with Lardy, Stawski or Voigt's DVD or whatever you think will assist you. No one can really tell you exactly what is best for you and your dog but there is lots of assistance which ever way you go. The DVD is a high price to pay but worth it just because of the approach used! If price too high for you rent from BowWow. Complimenting Hillman's DVD would be another which goes onto formal obedience, training your dog for advanced work and then further advanced work. I would also suggest you find somewhere that they train obedience in a class setting. This usually is good and assists you plus your pup gets to work in a settting with other dogs. The real fun of having your own pup is training him from the begining to the end IMHO but you have to be dedicated or just send him to the pro from the outset before bad habits develop or you run into problems. Good luck.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

What I'm getting from this thread is that a high roller would be the perfect candidate for this program. Correct? When they are a pup of course.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

It is a little hard to know if a pup is going to be a high roller at 3 months, but it will certainly teach a pup destined to be a high roller how to properly 'sit' without taking any of their desire away.

Wish I had know about this technique for my Ford pup sired by another FC years ago.......he was destined to be a high roller! He was never properly balanced as a pup and 'conditioned' to the sit command. 

I take full credit for it.......looking back now I know it was my own fault, as I was afraid of ruining his wonderful desire. If you look at traditional methods of puppy training.......just think about it a bit, we take them out of their crates and teach them to 'GO' and not 'SIT'.

As soon as I joined my training group in the mornings, I immediately took him out of his box and had friends in my training group throw him ducks. GO GO GO 

He never learned to 'sit' and by the time he was 6 months old, he was a monster that was unmanageable. I knew I had a problem and went to many pros for help, but by then it was too late. They were never able to properly 'condition' him to the 'sit' command from that point forward. Unfortunately a dog with enormous potential was unable to live up to it because he never properly learned to 'sit'.

When Bill released his puppy DVD, I got one and watched it immediately realizing that this was what Rip had needed as a pup. I immediately got Rip out and started ALL OVER FROM DAY 1 of Bill's puppy video. 

Rip was 4 then and I was able to get enough control of him at the line to run All Age stakes. I have used this technique on every one of my pups since. It will teach them to SIT and not CREEP.

This is why I highly recommend it for anyone who has a retriever pup regardless of whether you just want a hunting dog, hunt test dog or field trial dog. And regardless of whether you will be sending them to a pro or not......I could go on, but in my painful experience it is the only way to start a retriever pup. 

Bill's technique is quite unique but you must also pay very close attention to his subtle tips along the way. This is something I missed but have learned by talking to him about the technique. 

What is so wonderful about it is that you can taylor the training technique to any type of dog. Soft dogs and high dogs are trained very differently, so pay close attention to Bill when he talks about 'BALANCE'. This is where the art of dog training comes in, and you must notice whether the pup needs pushed in the area of desire or control. When you notice the pup getting discouraged, you then go back to Bill's excitement phase of chasing. With a high pup who is very excited to go, you will use more 'sitting' and teaching them patience. BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE

Good luck in training your retrievers in 2012.....


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

arklahunter said:


> I guess I may be asking too generalized question. I have seen entire training programs for the price of the Hillman video. Seems like a pretty high price to pay to just get a dog ready to send to the trainer. Since I have decided to train myself and with the help of some other experienced individuals it's a high price for a video that teaches a dog to sit. What makes the video so special? And what is formal training? I assume that many have done this without a trainer so what do you suggest after the hillman video other than just sending the dog to a trainer.


I'm gonna chime in here. First don't get overwhelmed(sp?) on this. Second it depends on what you want out of your dog? As in do you want a well behaved meat dog or do you want a hunt test/trial dog that you hunt? From what I've read on here the basics are the basics and I've heard good things on here about the Hillman stuff. Whether the dog is going to a pro or you're training it, again the basics are the basics. Don't confuse me using the word basics with Lardy's flow chart.

See if there's a HRC club nearby and see if you can show up on a training day to get a better idea. Most of the people I've met through the UKC HRC and the AKC hunt tests have been nice and willing to answer some questions.


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## bbmclain (May 23, 2011)

When I first started looking at the Hillmann DVDs, I too wondered why the high price!! But, I took the leap and bought the puppy video first, and boy am I glad I did!! He starts pups very differently than any I have seen before, and it has been worth every dime to me. I have started 2 pups with his methods and have been so happy with the RESULTS....money well spent in my opinion.


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## MIChessies (Sep 7, 2009)

If there is anyone that wants to sell their Hillman Puppy DVD, I would like to buy it.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

One of the largest values I was able to take away from the video was purely what he doesn't talk about. The use of non verbal cues and body language. Reading your dog is also brought up every time a discussion starts and without the subtle hints and visual referencences in this video it would have taken me much longer to understand what that means.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I will say this.

You hear all the times Pros say they get a puppy in for training,, and the owner said they didnt do anything with the pup because they didnt want to screw it up.

I think Hillmans DVD gives you a good road to follow to prepair a pup for further traing.

Their are many OPINIONS as to where a dog should be in training BEFORE it starts running Hunt tests!!

Some say its a progression and the steps the various venues use will gradually move the dog along.

Many experienced people dont think ANY dog should be running any tests untill it has been FF'd and is doing a good job with basic handeling. (simple cold blinds both land and water) I happen to agrre with this opinion now after 3dogs.

IMHO the Hillman video Gives a very VISUAL approach to PREPARE a puppy to a lifestyle of learning and training. Its PUPPY TRAINING......
I dont believe the DVD that is the topic of the thread was in anyway meant to be taken as a Program.... ITS a very inteligent stuctured way to introduce a puppy to mulitude of situations, at the same time have the pup learn also.

Dont get so caught up in the cost of information!
I believe there was a link given where you can rent the DVD if ya want.. Rent IT!!! and see what YOU think!!!
I think its pretty amazing how that Puppy,, that is a a nice dog,,but pretty typical in the way it behaves, progresses in 28 DAYS!!!!

I think the Hillman dvd will prepare a pup that can proceede smoothly with Grahm, Lardy ect!! and I bet these Pros would fall all over themselves with excitement,, if owners would take the time to prepare a PUPPY like this BEFORE it starts a Formal training program.

JMHDAO.:razz:


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What I took from it ,, was how Steadyness was incorporated very early into the dogs daily routine, and how eagerly the dog accepted the requirement.
Dint seem to slow him down,,make a "pig" out of him,, the dog just accepted the requirement as a way of life. 
Hillman did it so passivly and in a matter of fact,NON threatening way ,, stressing a Happy wonderful day for the PUPPY!!
Its a different way of thinking compared to other training opinions.

Many start Steadyness requirements ,,much later in their schedule.

Gooser


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> What I took from it ,, was how Steadyness was incorporated very early into the dogs daily routine, and how eagerly the dog accepted the requirement.
> Dint seem to slow him down,,make a "pig" out of him,, the dog just accepted the requirement as a way of life.
> Hillman did it so passivly and in a matter of fact,NON threatening way ,, stressing a Happy wonderful day for the PUPPY!!
> Its a different way of thinking compared to other training opinions.
> ...


Gooser I totally agree with what you posted! My pup is a few weeks in and sits and waits to be released! It is a beautiful thing! I remember reading Ted's post several years ago about sit means sit....does it really? and this has prepared my pup for that type of learning! My 4 month old Pirate girl was the star of our training group today.......everyone was amazed about how well she is doing as we threw two ducks for her at about 75-100 yards and she just pinned them!!!!

Proud papa regards!!!!

Chris


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> *I think the Hillman dvd will prepare a pup that can proceede smoothly with Grahm, Lardy ect*!! and I bet these Pros would fall all over themselves with excitement,, if owners would take the time to prepare a PUPPY like this BEFORE it starts a Formal training program.
> 
> JMHDAO.:razz:


Why change the training protocol. don't you think that further training could continue in the same vein?

John


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What Change?

Or do you just have that infamous stirrin stick out a yers!


Like I said;

Pros seem to complain a lot of owners that dont do ANYTHING with their puppies before they bring them to thier kennels..... NOTHING......

I think this DVD provides a visual example of a good preperation for a pup.

I dont think it has anything to do with a particular program

If Lardy or Gram has a particular Puppy (remember this is what the DVD is TITLED) PROTOCOL,,then I assume they would have particular sugestions

The DVD uses a 10 week old Puppy,, and shows a 28 day progression!!
28 days SIR!!!!! Its PUPPY TRAINING!!!!!!!
Gooser


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

The cost is not that big of a deal since I have already bought the thing and am just waiting for it to get here. I plan on doing the training myself. I would like to get Bailey infolved in field trials, but I have no delusions of really competing with the pros... I just don't want to be one of those guys whos dog sits in a kennel from one duck season to the next. To be honest... I really just want a hunting buddy


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

arklahunter said:


> The cost is not that big of a deal since I have already bought the thing and am just waiting for it to get here. I plan on doing the training myself. I would like to get Bailey infolved in field trials, but I have no delusions of really competing with the pros... I just don't want to be one of those guys whos dog sits in a kennel from one duck season to the next. To be honest... I really just want a hunting buddy


Your on your way to a new habit and don't even know it ...enjoy the ride


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> *What Change?*
> Or do you just have that infamous stirrin stick out a yers!
> 
> 
> ...


The Hillman training protocol to the point that it has been shown thus far, does not seem to me to be strictly intended to be used as a precursor for a conventional Carr based " yard" or "transition" program.....

It depicts a kinder and gentler approach to training and we in the games would be well served with another video by Bill showing the balance of the yard, the swim by and transition.

john


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate all of your responsed. Why is it that I feel like the foreign exchange student who get's to his new country and realizes that he forgot to learn the language. I guess the learning curve has to start somewhere. Seems like a lot of technical jargon involved with a dog picking something up and bringing it back


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John!!
With all due respect!

The DVD we are discussing is the retriever *PUPPY TRAINING* DVD.

Its PUPPY Training.. NOT Transistion Dogs,,, application of FORCE,,
Most of waht is shown in the PUPPY DVD is what is included in the section titled *Socialization and introduction to Field* of Mike Lardys Flow chart.

Some steps in Lardys Basics are included up to about Pile work.

Its the very Basic NO Pressure part of a weeks old puppy showing progress for 28 days!!! Its nothing more than that!! Why try and make it more than what it is???

For average guy that has just brought his First Puppy home,, and wants to get started off on the right foot,, I think it is a very good VISUAL (not LECTURE) DVD. 

Gooser


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Anyone that knows my dog realized he had suped up drive from the day I brought him home. I still struggle at times to make his third point of contact remain on the ground between birds. Strictly 100% taught by his rookie owner and trainer. 

The new addition we are picking up has the potential to be a gas drinker who could chit flames leaving the line. Since my goal is to start off from day 1 with the Grand and Master Natiomal in mind, why would I do the same things I did with Hammer and expect different results?

Each dog is different and has individual needs. Why oppose a different method that has proven the results are positive while keeping the pup's spirit high?

If this doesn't work, I guess we'll adapt and find the things that make him tick.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

SPLASH EM!!!

AAAAAAAAAA MENNNNNNNN Brother!!

I'm right there with Ya ridin that very same Bus!!:razz:


Gooser


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

I just got the DVD and viewed and really like the approach........I hope to be using it on my future pup......I have only trained my current dog and really wish I would have had this tool.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> John!!
> With all due respect!
> 
> The DVD we are discussing is the retriever *PUPPY TRAINING* DVD.
> ...


Mike, what we seem to have here is a "failure to communicate"

When the words
_No...........................Not the end ......................It's just the beginning_
Flashed across the screen at the end of the Hillman puppy video... 
I did not say to myself. "Oh Good, I can now revert to a Carr based program for the balance of my dogs training". 

What I did say was "I wish Bill would do a sequel"

john


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> What I took from it ,, was how Steadyness was incorporated very early into the dogs daily routine, and how eagerly the dog accepted the requirement.
> Dint seem to slow him down,,make a "pig" out of him,, the dog just accepted the requirement as a way of life.
> Hillman did it so passivly and in a matter of fact,NON threatening way ,, stressing a Happy wonderful day for the PUPPY!!
> Its a different way of thinking compared to other training opinions.
> ...


Agree Hillman not a program. It is a new approach to starting your puppy. You would be amazed at what your pup can do if you just played Traffic cop!!! Steadiness is what we are all after and this DVD shows you a new approach to achieving that. The benefit will be when you start Lardy or whoevers program you choose and your pup has all this into him. If you are dedicated your pup will be sitting steady, waiting until you put your arm out and then on your command go for the bumper. It is great!! Steadiness is the key and I have a go getter (Chief) and he is doing this. You can't go wrong trying the approach!!!
IMHO


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

arklahunter said:


> The cost is not that big of a deal since I have already bought the thing and am just waiting for it to get here. I plan on doing the training myself. I would like to get Bailey infolved in field trials, but I have no delusions of really competing with the pros... I just don't want to be one of those guys whos dog sits in a kennel from one duck season to the next. To be honest... I really just want a hunting buddy


You will have fun. Enjoy!!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Mike, what we seem to have here is a "failure to communicate"
> 
> When the words
> _No...........................Not the end ......................It's just the beginning_
> ...


But there was no sequel at that time. So did you wing it on your own trying to do it the way you thought Bill would, did you transition to another program, or did you do something else?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

captainjack said:


> But there was no sequel at that time. So did you wing it on your own trying to do it the way you thought Bill would, did you transition to another program, or did you do something else?


We are winging it...... With my new puppy I am superimposing the Hillman stuff over a lower intensity version(2's, 3's, with little or no 4's) of the TRT material and tempering it with 50 years of experience.;-)

john


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

john fallon said:


> We are winging it...... With my new puppy I am superimposing the Hillman stuff over a lower intensity version(2's, 3's, with little or no 4's) of the TRT material and tempering it with 50 years of experience.;-)
> 
> john


Are you suggesting that someone new to training, who is just learning the jargon, and not having 50 years of experience wing it?

Would they be better off winging it than transitioning to Lardy's TRT?

Do you consider Lardy's TRT high intensity (4's, 5's, and 6's)?

I follow Lardy's TRT and spend virtually all of my time on 3 L, M, and Hs with three different dogs.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Are you suggesting that someone new to training, who is just learning the jargon, and not having 50 years of experience wing it?
> 
> Would they be better off winging it than transitioning to Lardy's TRT?
> 
> ...


What I am saying is that they(someone new to training) might be better off If they could continue in the same vein of the first 28 days of Hillman with another 28 or so more days, than they would be changing to some other program , and this includes the more popular of the Carr based ones.
This is what I said about that early on in this thread http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=897504&postcount=3

You ask me what I did since there is yet no sequil, not what I suggested someone new do.....and I told you what I did.

I consider 5 and 6 on the high end no matter 
If you revisit TRT you will find Mike says that with the dogs he was demonstrating in that DVD he used a higher intensities when implementing the program than you say that do with your dogs.


john


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John

You never did answer:

What Change?

Gooser


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

john fallon said:


> What I am saying is that they(someone new to training) might be better off If they could continue in the same vein of the first 28 days of Hillman with another 28 or so more days, than they would be changing to some other program , and this includes the more popular of the Carr based ones.
> ...


What specifically are they supposed to continue doing in the same vein...? A new trainer will not know what to do next other than repeat the same 28 days. How is that going to lead to a dog that can run complex multiples and AA cold blinds?



john fallon said:


> ...You ask me what I did since there is yet no sequil, not what I suggested someone new do.....and I told you what I did.
> ...


I asked what you did because this thread is about what the OP is or should be doing. Your post seemed to indicate that you were not in favor of what most folks were advocating (a transition to Lardy, Graham, Stawski...), so I thought you may be able to shed some light on a viable alternative for a new trainer.



john fallon said:


> ...I consider 5 and 6 on the high end no matter
> If you revisit TRT you will find Mike says that with the dogs he was demonstrating in that DVD he used a higher intensities when implementing the program than you say that do with your dogs.
> ...


Mike does take the dogs up the scale in the CC dvd when de-bolting and he may mention what level a particular dog in the TRT dvd is trained at (I seem to remember him mentioning 4), but he also clearly explains that the level you train your dog at should be the level that elicits the desired behavioral response. If you think TRT advocates high level ecollar burns, then either you or I do need to revisit the TRT dvd because that is most certainly not what I took from it.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

What is an OP? Trying to follow this new language and am getting a little lost.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

[/QUOTE] Mike does take the dogs up the scale in the CC dvd when de-bolting and he may mention what level a particular dog in the TRT dvd is trained at (I seem to remember him mentioning 4), but he also clearly explains that the level you train your dog at should be the level that elicits the desired behavioral response. If you think TRT advocates high level ecollar burns, then either you or I do need to revisit the TRT dvd because that is most certainly not what I took from it.[/QUOTE] Glenn Guider

Lardy starts at 4 then moves up or down depending on the response from the dog and uses the continuous mode. Prerequisite for cc is formal obedience.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

arklahunter said:


> What is an OP? Trying to follow this new language and am getting a little lost.


OP = Original Poster.

I wasn't going to post on this thread but since I have, I want to say that I thought of the Hillman tape as a good beginning to get a trained dog. At the end the dog was about ready for more formal obedience, then cc or ff whichever you like first then on to the rest of basics and transition.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> John
> 
> You never did answer:
> 
> ...


It was you that never answered my question. 
so I will pose it to you again, extrapolated to minimise the chance for your again misunderstanding what I am asking.

Why change the Hillman kinder gentler training approch (protocol if you will) at 28 days. Don't you think that further training information in the form of a sequel to lets say the end of what is generically called "Transition" and beyond, could allow one to continue training in the same (kinder and gentler ) vein with similar awesome results ?

As I told Glen... for the lack of such a sequel I improvised, using what I viewed to be an extrapolated Hillman /"soft" TRT,further tempered by experience. 
Perhaps in doing so I will only end up with a QAA MH with pup that should have an FC AFC, but only time will.

Now if you care to,YOU answer my question....Glen ,you can also take a shot at if you like;-)

John


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> So first thing Hillman says is there are 3 things you want your pup to do: 1. chase something, 2.walk on a line and he does not mean heeling perfectly 3. teach him to sit. As I said he wants to pup to develop desire. Hillman stresses patience, kindness and understanding. There is plenty of obedience in each session. Usually he did these sessions with the pup in the morning when the pup was ready to go and only once a day. He says it is important the pup learns to become a family member rest of the day. The sessions are not stressful to the dog. Stresses you should be persistent with the command "sit". There were 28 days of training as I remember. The pup is taught sit, and while the pup is sitting and as the pup progresses you start to walk around the pup (maintaining sit) and walk further away from the pup and he becomes more steady. I practiced this with my pup and it works well, but you have to be persistent and consistent. Alot of praise goes with each session. He introduces pup to water, water marks, heeling both sides, practice sit with a bumper, introduced the pup to a clipped wing, and teaches you his term traffic cop where he keeps the pup from retrieving then gives the okay to retrieve, starts on Day 10 "hold" , does baby doubles, Day 21 Force Fetch with E collar on low (Ecollar has been on well before this), uses a bird boy to throw and shoot. I used the traffic cop but learned this from Voigt's DVD where he teaches stand alones while you go out and throw. Hillman comes back into his dog, praises him for a good job and then go back out (trafic cop) and sends him. Whole idea to teach steadiness. Works well!
> Excellent DVD and I am not going to tell you much more, but it is worthwhile viewing. And this is my translation of what I viewed. Like I said I am going to get the DVD to add to my library. Praise is a big part of the teaching! Good luck





MooseGooser said:


> Mary Lynn!
> 
> That was an excellent synopsis!!!
> 
> ...





TroyFeeken said:


> One of the largest values I was able to take away from the video was purely what he doesn't talk about. The use of non verbal cues and body language. Reading your dog is also brought up every time a discussion starts and without the subtle hints and visual referencences in this video it would have taken me much longer to understand what that means.





MooseGooser said:


> What I took from it ,, was how Steadyness was incorporated very early into the dogs daily routine, and how eagerly the dog accepted the requirement.
> Dint seem to slow him down,,make a "pig" out of him,, the dog just accepted the requirement as a way of life.
> Hillman did it so passivly and in a matter of fact,NON threatening way ,, stressing a Happy wonderful day for the PUPPY!!
> Its a different way of thinking compared to other training opinions.
> ...





ctretriever said:


> Gooser I totally agree with what you posted! My pup is a few weeks in and sits and waits to be released! It is a beautiful thing! I remember reading Ted's post several years ago about sit means sit....does it really? and this has prepared my pup for that type of learning! My 4 month old Pirate girl was the star of our training group today.......everyone was amazed about how well she is doing as we threw two ducks for her at about 75-100 yards and she just pinned them!!!!
> 
> Proud papa regards!!!!
> 
> Chris





john fallon said:


> Why change the training protocol. don't you think that further training could continue in the same vein?
> 
> John





john fallon said:


> The Hillman training protocol to the point that it has been shown thus far, does not seem to me to be strictly intended to be used as a precursor for a conventional Carr based " yard" or "transition" program.....
> 
> It depicts a kinder and gentler approach to training and we in the games would be well served with another video by Bill showing the balance of the yard, the swim by and transition.
> 
> john





john fallon said:


> Mike, what we seem to have here is a "failure to communicate"
> 
> When the words
> _No...........................Not the end ......................It's just the beginning_
> ...


These are some great observations!!

The Hillmann Method can continue to be applied along with the Lardy training chart to further your retriever's training. It is not particularly WHAT drills you do, but HOW you teach them!

The whole intent of his initial video was to show that there is a kinder and gentler approach to training retrievers. He calls it the 'soft collar' approach. It's an approach more in tune to each individual dog.

The traditional Carr method of training using the NEW electric collar with ONLY ONE level of intensity was in its day leaps ahead of old methods such as shotguns and sticks. 

With the new levels of intensity in today's electric collars, over 15 levels of intensity in which to choose, I would NOT personally START on a level 4! If I did, the past 10 dogs I've trained would have some serious attitude problems!



john fallon said:


> We are winging it...... With my new puppy I am superimposing the Hillman stuff over a lower intensity version(2's, 3's, with little or no 4's) of the TRT material and tempering it with 50 years of experience.;-)
> 
> john


Like John says, you can use the Hillmann method superimposed over other programs and use low level or 'soft collar' reinforcements only after the dog has been TAUGHT what is expected.

Watch the puppy video for clues on his teaching methods. 

Eye Contact
Body Movements
Touching
Praise
Soft Collar Reinforcement
All of these tools can be used through out your dogs life to learn. He wants you to key in on the fact that animals communicate more through body language (animal) than verbal language (human). Hopefully we can look for more videos from Bill soon!

It's not a training method but a way of life.......


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John

I think I did answere your question.
Now that I understand what you think the change is ,mebe I can try a intelligent answere.(hard for gooser)

Like I said, I think it prepares a puppy for FORMAL obediance and field work training and (very well too.)

My own perpective is (my opinion) , there will come a point in time when a dog will need to learn about force, and how to deal with it. I dont want to turn this into another one a those silly FF debates,, but eventually if you are following what you call a Carr based program,, a dog will need to learn about Force.

I dont think that there is ANY change from Carr based programs to Hillmans *PUPPY DVD*

I dont think Lardy,, Gram,,Dobbs whoever,,, have an intent to be 'UNKIND or HARSH to a puppy. They slowly bring a puppy along with socialization parameters, obedience , ect.

I think what the Hillman DVD shows is someones way of COMBINING all this into each daily routine,, so the dog learns commands like "sit",, walking on a leash,, Hold,, steadyness,, without it even knowing it. He starts the dog out presenting to the puppy, what his world is,, and what is to be expected of him,, and like most other programs,, makes it Fun with no harsh corrections! They are PUPPIES!!!!. He develops a good positive attitude for training.

If you wanted to say, you wish Hillman had a video describing transition work,, advanced field work,, DeCheating, DeBolting,, Pile work,, T and double T ,, Water force,,, Swim by ect,,, well,, I guess you shoulda said that. If you did,, and I miss understood you,, then I appologise.

I think Lardy , Gram and many other Pros would be impressed if Clients took the time to prepare a Puppy following Hillmans DVD. I believe the Pup would blend well to any program the client chooses to follow after that 28 DAY TIME PERIOD!!!! 

Seriosly!!!! Think about it. If that puppy in Hiimans DVD is 10 weeks old,,,,, and he progresses as described for the next 28 days,, How old is the Pup at that point in time???? *Just a Bit over 3 months*????? The Pros I know dont want the dog till he is between 4 and 6 months!!! They are gonna want to see if a puppy can sit,, walk on lead,, Here, ride in a truck, not freek at the sight of other dogs... They wont even start that 4 month old puppt they just got in,, on a harsh ,, unkind training regieme.. At least not anyone I'm sending a dog to!!
Hillmans DVD is for BABIES!!!!!!!! Its a PREPERATION FOR PUPPIES!!!!!! 


If you personally want a program that doesnt include Force,, so be it,, you can find them,, or creat yer own if ya want,,, and that Hillman puppy will be fine follwing one.
I also believe that same Hillman puppy will do quite well follwing Lardy.

Again!!! This is GOOSER Take it for what its worth. Its just my opinion based on my observations from watching the DVD. I plan on using it with my new puppy.


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

One more thing!

Mebe I have Miss understood Lardy,, but I believe He stress "Fairness" all throughout his program!!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John

I think I did answere your question.
Now that I understand what you think the change is ,mebe I can try a intelligent answere.(hard for gooser)

Like I said, I think it prepares a puppy for FORMAL obediance and field work training and (very well too.)

My own perpective is (my opinion) , there will come a point in time when a dog will need to learn about force, and how to deal with it. I dont want to turn this into another one a those silly FF debates,, but eventually if you are following what you call a Carr based program,, a dog will need to learn about Force.

I dont think that there is ANY change from Carr based programs to Hillmans *PUPPY DVD*

I dont think Lardy,, Gram,,Dobbs whoever,,, have an intent to be 'UNKIND or HARSH to a puppy. They slowly bring a puppy along with socialization parameters, obedience , ect.

I think what the Hillman DVD shows is someones way of COMBINING all this into each daily routine,, so the dog learns commands like "sit",, walking on a leash,, Hold,, steadyness,, without it even knowing it. He starts the dog out presenting to the puppy, what his world is,, and what is to be expected of him,, and like most other programs,, makes it Fun with no harsh corrections! They are PUPPIES!!!!. He develops a good positive attitude for training.

If you wanted to say, you wish Hillman had a video describing transition work,, advanced field work,, DeCheating, DeBolting,, Pile work,, T and double T ,, Water force,,, Swim by ect,,, well,, I guess you shoulda said that. If you did,, and I miss understood you,, then I appologise.

I think Lardy , Gram and many other Pros would be impressed if Clients took the time to prepare a Puppy following Hillmans DVD. I believe the Pup would blend well to any program the client chooses to follow after that 28 DAT TIME PERIOD!!!! 

Seriosly!!!! Think about it. If that puppy in Hiimans DVD is 10 weeks old,,,,, and he progresses as described for the next 28 days,, How old is the Pup at that point in time???? *Just a Bit over 3 months*????? The Pros I know dont want the dog till he is between 4 and 6 months!!! They are gonna want to see if a puppy can sit,, walk on lead,, Here, ride in a truck, not freek at the sight of other dogs... They wont even start that 4 month old puppt they just got in,, on a harsh ,, unkind training regieme.. At least not anyone I'm sending a dog to!!
Hillmans DVD is for BABIES!!!!!!!! Its a PREPERATION FOR PUPPIES!!!!!! 


If you personally want a program that doesnt include Force,, so be it,, you can find them,, or creat yer own if ya want,,, and that Hillman puppy will be fine follwing one.
I also believe that same Hillman puppy will do quite well follwing Lardy.

Again!!! This is GOOSER Take it for what its worth. Its just my opinion based on my observations from watching the DVD. I plan on using it with my new puppy.


Gooser


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gooser,

Here's a prediction:

You're about to hop on your most enjoyable retriever journey yet. You're about to feel like the world has opened up brand new horizons for you and your new pup.

This next part is kind of like a spin on the "Men's Warehouse" TV commercials:

You're gonna love the way your new dog performs.

That's my prediction.

Here's to a happy, confident, obedient Phase 3 retriever for the Gooser...

Oh, and you gotta be careful feeding that other critter. Kinda like the pa in Ted's annual Xmas story. You feed too much to that other cat, and he'll get cantankerous.

Chris


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thanks Chris!!

2 more weeks!!:razz:

I am experiencing 72 hr days!!!

Gooser


John

If you go back and review the Hilman DVD, and listen to the last sentence in the INTRODUCTION,, you will hear Hilman himself say the DVD is for Puppy preperation,, and will be a great precurser for what ever trainer, or program the pup will experience. (I paraphased)

Again,, DVD isnt meant to be a program,, is all about babies!!
Dont make it more than it is!

Gooser

Gooser


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> John
> 
> I think I did answere your question.
> Now that I understand what you think the change is ,mebe I can try a intelligent answere.(hard for gooser)
> ...


*Gooser that is a very important point you bring home-age of the pup when you start and when you are finished Hillman's DVD.* Most should start at 8 weeks-10 weeks. I started Chief a little later as we had been following info from Lori Jolly's book (which is good). By the end of the 28 days of Hillman's DVD, he still was not that old (6.5 months)! Now I am making sure he has his steadiness is down pat! In January, he will be ff and have more cc. Right now, he is having loads of fun and yet he is still so eager, soaking the game up like a sponge. The DVD is a valuable tool IMHO and don't just stop running over the techniques you learned. At least your pup has been introduced to a fair approach to retrieving, you will always use the info, grow from that 28 day point and the techniques will develop better in different ways but they will be very useful to you!!IMHO


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

It would appear people are attempting to "rush" the "Hillman" approach,the training sessions in the video were not everyday,it's 28 days of training spread out over 9-10 weeks,I think there was a discussion about this on another thread,the other days between training were just walks,socialization and play.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The more you go back and watch that DVD it ibecomes absolutly amazing what that young dog accomplishes in A* 28 DAY TIME PERIOD!!*

*Its just a great DVD for new Puppy owners*

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

red neck is correct,, but ,, there are many references in the DVD using the word "yesterday" or the day "looking like the day before."

Day 18 he does say is one of MANY days off,, but,, the dog is still following "Protocol" if you will,, of socialization , and discovering the world.
He also makes it a strong point that each days filming is the actual time period of that days training. 

The DVD however shows what 28 days of training has accomplished.

The socilazation days,,or days off,, havent built on the dogs field progression, but rather incorporated "balance" as he discusses also.
I assume like everything else,, it will depend on each particular puppy.
(and handler)

As always rushing never accomplishes anything!!,, and knowing when to move on is a knowledge gained through experience.

Even if the DVD is showing 28 day training over a 9 week period,, that pup if started at 10 weeks old will still only be 19 weeks when compleated. (just less than 5 months old) Still just a baby! Member,, some Pros wont take the dog till 6 months old.,,,, and they complain MANY people have done NOTHING with the dog.

He aslo says several times in the DVD " Repition is the mother of Skill"

Gooser


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

I just watched portions of it again today. On day one, the pup is 11 weeks old. On day 28, the pup is five and a half months old.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Thanks Chris!!
> 
> 2 more weeks!!:razz:
> 
> ...


Don't get caught up in semantics. If you dont want to use the word program to discribe what Bill is doing each day for 28 training day don't . 
But don't try to tell me that it (what Bill is doing each day with the puppy) does not meet the word "program"'s defination criteria. It is a "A planned series of future events, items, or performances" for young puppies. 

I asked if you thought that the same concept could be developed on to suit the needs of dogs more advanced training . In our back and forths to date, you have yet to answer my question. 

In closing let me quote Tammu bell, "_Like John says, you can use the Hillmann method superimposed over other programs and use low level or 'soft collar' reinforcements only after the dog has been TAUGHT what is expected.

Watch the puppy video for clues on his teaching methods. 
Eye Contact 
Body Movements 
Touching 
Praise 
Soft Collar Reinforcement 

All of these tools can be used through out your dogs life to learn. He wants you to key in on the fact that animals communicate more through body language (animal) than verbal language (human). Hopefully we can look for more videos from Bill soon!

It's not a training method but a way of life......"_


john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Watchm said:


> I just watched portions of it again today. On day one, the pup is 11 weeks old. On day 28, the pup is five and a half months old.


I've not verified the numbers quoted by watchem, and others, but assuming the above is accurate, as well as the notion that the DVD encompasses 28 training sessions:

DVD = 28 training sessions
Puppy Starts at 11 weeks of age
Puppy is 24 weeks of age at the end of the DVD

The DVD encompasses 13 weeks or 91 days, or 3 1/4 months of training over 28 individual sessions.

If you took an average, which is "just a number", the DVD would have a training session on average every 3.25 days.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Again!

I assume speed of advancement would depend on the puppy.

but Thats only going to matter,,If you are even going to worry about it!! It takes what it takes!!

Its obvious the dog has matured from the beggining of the video to the end,, but the pup is still only about 5 months old!,,, and had AGAIN 28days of training!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Watchem

Could you please reference the day in the DVD where Hillman discusses the pupp's age?

I cant find it!

Thanks

Gooser.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Watchem
> 
> Could you please reference the day in the DVD where Hillman discusses the pupp's age?
> 
> ...


Watch day 28 and at the end of that session you'll find it during the credits.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

john fallon said:


> ...
> But don't try to tell me that it (what Bill is doing each day with the puppy) does not meet the word "program"'s defination criteria. It is a "A planned series of future events, items, or performances" for young puppies.
> ...


John, what Hillman does may meet the techical definition, Websters definition, and your definition of a program. But surely you understand that it doesn't meet the definition of a program as commonly used here on RTF which is a complete program to include basics, transition, and advanced training leading to a finished retriever.



john fallon said:


> ...
> I asked if you thought that the same concept could be developed on to suit the needs of dogs more advanced training . In our back and forths to date, you have yet to answer my question.
> ...


You offered me a chance to answer this in an earlier post. So I'll take a shot.
My answer is yes, I have no doubt that the same concept could be developed on.... In fact, I'm sure that is how Hillman continues as he moves his own dogs along in training.

The problem is that the average amatuer trainer working on his/her first or second dog is not going to have the level of knowledge required to be able to do this. Just like the average newbie can't develop their own successful Carr based program (even with the commercial ones available as models). So, until Hillman roduces a dvd of his method that will take a dog through to a finished retriever, most new trainers will be better served by following a complete program such as Lardy's rather than winging it and relying on their 4 months of "experience".



john fallon said:


> ...In closing let me quote Tammu bell, "_Like John says, *you can use the Hillmann method superimposed over other programs and use low level or 'soft collar' reinforcements only after the dog has been TAUGHT what is expected.*..._


_

Again, this is something that I believe the average new trainer can not do._


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> Watchem
> 
> Could you please reference the day in the DVD where Hillman discusses the pupp's age?
> 
> ...


Gooser the Pups age is displayed in the credits at the end,

Nicks age on day 1 = 11 weeks

Nicks age on day 28 = 22 weeks

28 days of training spread out over 11 weeks.

Bill explains at the beginning that there is no training going on "behind the scenes" all the training he does is right there in the video.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

rednek said:


> Gooser the Pups age is displayed in the credits at the end,
> 
> Nicks age on day 1 = 11 weeks
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, this skews my calcs done earlier just a touch. Same general concept though... On average a session is taped every 2.75 days using the above numbers.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Watchm

I see what you are saying.

But ,, approximatly day 20 to day 28 the dog is bieng conditioned to FF.
It shows the progression of about 6 sessions.
Also in those days. Hillman shows incorporation of bird boys,, gun shots from bird boys, white coats, Bumper boys, kinda a walk up,,water markks ect.

Theses are just refinements of what the dog has already learned at about the end of day 15 or so. at the end of day 15 or so,, The dog knows "sit",, is pretty much already steady,,Knows hold,, Knows here, has been introd to birds,, Guns,, has had mild collar stimulation. It really is just the continuation of what the dog already has learned,, minus the FF.

I also think If john were to watch the DVD again,, he would see some of the Progression in the FF sessions he was so wanting to see. 

I think we agree that a Pup should have adult teeth in place before FF begins.

I think,, as always ,,people get hung up on How old the dog is at any given point in training. I know I do,, I keep gettin reminded 'IT TAKES What IT Takes" as far as a time line.

I know I have stood at a training day and watched 15 week old puppies retrieve Full sized ducks from across a small body a water,, thrown onto land....

The DVD shows 28 days of puppy training.
How old do you estimate the dog at day 15??

Gooser


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

I didn't read every line of every post, but I never saw a definition of "formal training" given. It doesn't matter what board you join, but there will always be a learning curve. For instance, BLM (black lab male), CLF (chocolate lab female) on this board, GSP (German Shorthaired Pointer) on another, or BSP (Barred Surf Perch) on a surf fishing forum.

Take it with a grain of salt, but my understanding of "formal training" goes something like this. 

When you get a new puppy, or a dog of any age that doesn't have any training, you start out with "puppy training" or "puppy obedience". Basic elements of this is teaching the puppy its name, "sit", "here/come", "heel", and other basic skills through lots of (positive) praise, treats, and little to no negative means. So the pup learns basic commands and skills in a FUN environment. 

Later, usually at 6-8 months, obedience and other training is "formalized"- that is, it becomes enforced. The pup learns that he/she MUST obey, even when it's no longer fun to do so. The pup is conditioned to aversives such as the choke chain/pinch collar/command lead, heeling sticks, e-collars, etc. "Fetch" is formalized (through various means), so that compliance is non-optional, and the goal is a dog that holds firmly yet gently (without mouthing, licking, tearing, etc.), and doesn't drop a bird (in any condition) until commanded to do so.

So I see "formal" training as being the part of training that follows "puppy" training, and "formalizing" a command is conditioning a dog to enforcement of a given command.

Oh, and if you don't know what Mr. Chris Atkinson (AKA "the Janitor") meant by "Phase 3", there is a clip on the Farmer/Aycock Retriever Training Basics video that talks about the three phases of retriever trainers. There used to be a link to a clip of it, but it may have been taken down.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Been lurking on this thread and I have a question since it seems the OPs question has been answered. Would hillmans puppy video be a good starter to use on older dogs that haven't had any formal training? Reason I'm asking is I have a dog from a guy that is 18 months old and he duck hunted with our group this year and after seeing my dog work he asked if I could work with his dog. I took the dog on for more experience in training and to try to help him out. It seems this dvd to me is a good starter program no matter what the age .
I made it very clear that I've put ALOT of blood sweat tears in my dog along with her willingness to work hard and explained that they have to want to retrieve be you can teach them HOW to retrieve.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

O and by the way finding this bowwowflix site was the best Christmas present I got this year. Holy cow that's sweet


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## rspringer (Dec 19, 2011)

When do they say to start the program? As soon as you get them?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mary Lynn, that is the best interpretation of Hillman's puppy video that I have read. You really grasped the concepts in a short, sharp synopsis. I wish I had read your posts before I used the method! Maybe then I would not have had to watch it umpteen times before I processed all of it! Thanks for posting.


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## mouth plumber (May 10, 2005)

I have enjoyed reading this discussion as Nick is my dog. Btw, Nick is all age qualified and running opens now. He also earned 15 derby points while competeing every derby against the eventual #2 derby dog (Punch).
Steve


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

mouth plumber said:


> I have enjoyed reading this discussion as Nick is my dog. Btw, Nick is all age qualified and running opens now. He also earned 15 derby points while competeing every derby against the eventual #2 derby dog (Punch).
> Steve


If you will.....What type/style/method of of training was used in carrying his training forward to the AA level ? 

john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> If you will.....What type/style/method of of training was used in carrying his training forward to the AA level ?
> 
> john


Mouth Plumber, he meant to say "please" and "thank you". ;-)

Happy New Year!

Chris


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Mouth Plumber, he meant to say "please" and "thank you". ;-)
> 
> Happy New Year!
> 
> Chris


Actualy "in a manner of speaking" I did 

Google is your friend with things such as this. enter- If you will/definition

Definition
if you will- *Please*, kindly; used in giving a non-concrete instruction....... 

In this case by using "if you will" rather than a simple "please" as an opening, it _further_ indicatates that the writer knows that providing the requested information is somewhat of an imposition........

Upon the recept of the request information a gracious "Thank You" would have been fourthcoming.;-)


john


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Oh my Chris  how dare you lead us off subject again! :BIG:


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## mouth plumber (May 10, 2005)

John, the only way to answer that is that Bill Hillman supervised Nicks's training. Sorry it took so long to answer

Steve


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## jkj1212 (Jun 22, 2011)

I have been really watching this thread closely and I have a couple of comments that might be important. 

First, the puppy video is far more than a puppy video, it is a philosophy of how to train. Furthermore, the ideas in the puppy video do not end with day 28, the same exercises can be expanded and utilized for life. Not only can you start a dog that is 3, 4, 5 years old with day one, but you can start an 8 week old puppy using this philosophy. I had a chance to talk with Bill at length about this topic. I know that in his view dogs of any age can be started on this program.

During that same discussion, Bill hinted that he has been working for the past two years on video material that will continue the sequence followed in the puppy video. This may be available in a few weeks. I did not get an exact idea on the time line.


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Bowwowflix is out of copies to rent right now. Ya'll have taken them!! I hope whoever has them will just watch them a couple of times, take notes and send them back in circulation. (And not hang on to them for 2-3 months!) You can always rent them again, if we all follow this 'plan'.

It's such a short time for the beginning puppy stuff. I'm hoping to watch the DVD before my pup turns 3-4 mo old! 

Debbie


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Debbie, you are so right! It is amazing how fast time goes between when you are waiting on pup to arrive and then he is 4 months old!. You just have to get hold of that DVD, and watch it 'til your eyes burn out, make lots of notes and get going. If you spend to many days reviewing, you will miss your pup's babyhood.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Codatango said:


> Bowwowflix is out of copies to rent right now. Ya'll have taken them!! *I hope whoever has them will* just watch them a couple of times, take notes and send them back in circulation. (And not hang on to them for 2-3 months!) You can always rent them again, if we all follow this 'plan'.
> 
> It's such a short time for the beginning puppy stuff. I'm hoping to watch the DVD before my pup turns 3-4 mo old!
> 
> Debbie


Bill hopes they don't. 

If we all follow this 'plan', Bill will not sell any dvds and there will be no incentive to make more in the future.

Go buy the thing so we can all see what comes next after the 28 days.:-x


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I'd like to know how he trained the cat for distractions lol Day two he kept running back and forth


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## bbmclain (May 23, 2011)

Well, IF and WHEN Bill comes out with more videos.....I will be buying!!!! I am ready for more.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Got the video today... I can say that I can see why is so important to present the video in this way. The method is so simple, but would be almost impossible to articulate without actually viewing the action. You can actually see Bill dealing with simple corrections and the years of experience he has dealing with what the pup presents. A novice like me can view and understant, but would not bel able to get it from a lecture.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

That was very well said!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I mean if Ya think about it.

Baseball!!!

If Some guy stood in one place and Just tried to teach Ya about baseball!!

Ya just cant get the intricacies about the details that go into playin the Game.

Ya really need Visual aids! The Cheerleaders,, the Barber shop quartettes.

How about tryin to explain how Ya move a guy off the plate.

Chris would prolly walk down from the mound, and politely ask the batter to kindly step back a foot or two PLEASE,, and then whaen Back on the Mound tell him Thank You!!!

Whilst Fallon would try to understand all lifes little details,, and how it has personally affected the batters relationships with overbearing California girls!!! He's just throw him all balls and walk him in a Kinder,, Gentler way!!

Now,, Lets *watch *Uncle Bill ON FILM,, Take the Ball,, spit on it,, Grab it by just the laces with his hairy knuckles that drag the ground,, haul off and Pitch that thing ,smakin the batter right in the Jimmy!!


That VISUAL makes it all the more clear a WHY YA DONT CROWD the PLATE!!!

ITS ALLLL VISUAL!!!!!!!!! Just wouldnt be the same just bein lectured about it!!

Goosers kinda a visual guy!!

6 Pages!!!!


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## DOG MAGNET (Feb 22, 2011)

It has been a while since I watched this DVD but I wish we could hear more of Hillman in the field talking to the pup. Most segments are narrated during editing. Other than that, I loved it.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Some of my absolute favorite experiences of the Field Trial game have been the times I was campaigning Bus in derbies. Just about all that we ran, Bill was there running two dogs. "Punch" is the one that stands out. The other was a female whose name I've forgotten.

Bill has a very cool style. He's very approachable and open to sharing his thoughts. I'd gotten to know Bill a bit when he competed with Cutter in an event I helped put on a few years prior. 

At those derbies, my first whitecoat adventures with my first non-Amish dog, Bill shared all sorts of training ideas and thoughts. All I had to do was ask. 

He also was a great one to watch how he took the dogs off the truck, how he approached the holding blind, how he cued the dogs at the mat. I don't recall ever seeing him wear white at the line in the derbies. 

Shayne always told me that the cool guys didn't wear white to the line in the derby. (I always wore white.  )


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

rednek said:


> Bill explains at the beginning that there is no training going on "behind the scenes" all the training he does is right there in the video.


 



I find this hard to believe. That pup is too perfect through out the dvd. Just my opinion.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

One thing that could be misleading to a newbie is the continual use of "days" as in 28 days of training both in the video and this thread.

I believe Mary Hillman posted on RTF that they should have said "sessions" rather than "days". This was done over a period of time rather than 28 straight days.

It is a puppy program that is the first step in training your dog...such as Sound Beginnings. You do these Puppy programs first to get your pup on the right track then at around 6-7 months age you start a formal (ie lifelong) program like Lardy, Graham or Stawski. These puppy programs get your pup on the right track and prepare them for formal training once they hit 6-7 months.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Steve Shaver said:


> I find this hard to believe. That pup is too perfect through out the dvd. Just my opinion.


My guess is that the puppy responded so well because (1) he's a well bred pup with all the instincts he's supposed to have, and (2) Bill is such an experienced and accomplished handler that he is "managing" the pup's behavior the whole time and getting optimum results. Years of experience provide capabilities well beyond someone who is doing it for the first time.

While I have not gotten the same near perfect responses with my own pup (we hit a snag at about week 7 and had to wait 6 weeks before we were back on track again, she simply lost interest in retrieving for awhile,) we have been able to make steady progress once she found her joy again. I don't have the instinctive "correct" response to her every move that Bill has, but it' still working.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Cowtown said:


> One thing that could be misleading to a newbie is the continual use of "days" as in 28 days of training both in the video and this thread.
> 
> I believe Mary Hillman posted on RTF that they should have said "sessions" rather than "days". This was done over a period of time rather than 28 straight days.
> 
> It is a puppy program that is the first step in training your dog...such as Sound Beginnings. You do these Puppy programs first to get your pup on the right track then at around 6-7 months age you start a formal (ie lifelong) program like Lardy, Graham or Stawski. These puppy programs get your pup on the right track and prepare them for formal training once they hit 6-7 months.


A few folks did address that in this thread. Posts 74 and 80 were ones where I just ran a few numbers.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

T-Pines said:


> He does not say (or imply) that the pup is in isolation at all times except during filming.
> 
> I choose to believe that the DVD presents all the *formal* training of this pup. I also believe that this pup was a part of the Hillmann household and participated in all kinds of informal interaction with Bill and Mary and other dogs and cats. I'm sure that the Hillmann philosphy is indirectly imparted during informal play sessions and through learning to abide by the rules of the household.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with Jim and was about to type something similar.

I personally find that crating pups and mealtimes (which I personally include together for puppies) are wonderful training opportunities to help move a pup along in his education.

There are obviously all sorts of training-influencing interactions that Bill or anyone would have with the pup off camera in-between sessions. But I don't think that means anyone was attempting to say anything inaccurate. 

I think it is entirely possible to have only the formal training sessions on tape, but still have all sorts of less formal interactions taking place in between formal sessions. That's just real-life for dogs and their trainers.

Chris


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by rednek
> 
> Bill explains at the beginning that there is no training going on "behind the scenes" all the training he does is right there in the video.
> ...


I am of the same opinion as Steve Shaver. I had, still have, a copy of the DVD. I ordered a gift copy of the puppy DVD for a Christmas gift for someone a couple years back and asked about this when I ordered it. There was one day when Nick was his normal self, training pretty well I think. Then a few seconds of video time later he's suddenly ears and tail down. IMO he's gotten a correction the viewers didn't see. I thought that was an example of training, "Behind the scenes." Mary said that she had had hours and hours of video to edit and couldn't put it all in the commercial product. I thought/still think that whatever actions that Nick made which prompted Bill to make a correction and what that correction was, would be/is important to trainers learning what the standards are and how they are to be upheld.

I think we probably saw most if not all of the training sessions, just not all of each session.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Howard N said:


> I am of the same opinion as Steve Shaver. I had, still have, a copy of the DVD. I ordered a gift copy of the puppy DVD for a Christmas gift for someone a couple years back and asked about this when I ordered it. There was one day when Nick was his normal self, training pretty well I think. Then a few seconds of video time later he's suddenly ears and tail down. IMO he's gotten a correction the viewers didn't see. I thought that was an example of training, "Behind the scenes." Mary said that she had had hours and hours of video to edit and couldn't put it all in the commercial product. I thought/still think that whatever actions that Nick made which prompted Bill to make a correction and what that correction was, would be/is important to trainers learning what the standards are and how they are to be upheld.
> 
> *I think we probably saw most if not all of the training sessions, just not all of each session*.


That makes total sense. What's the full time of the video. If each session were "only" 15 minutes long, and you presented all of each session in the final product with 28 sessions would be 7 hours long.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

_*BEST*_ thing about Hillman's DVD is it makes you want to go out and get a puppy! That's what I remember most from watching (a borrowed) copy. I know I'll be buying one when time to start another one.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> A few folks did address that in this thread. Posts 74 and 80 were ones where I just ran a few numbers.


Sorry, just trying to help.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Its OBVIOUS the dog matures more than what he would in a CONSECUTIVE 28 day period of time.

I do believe however, that the pup has a pretty good grasp of Steady,, Sit,, Here,, and the leash,, at a very early age.

At the end of the Video,, in the credits ,, it says FILMING was done between 12 -30- 06 thru 3 -15-07
Approx 70 days.

Remember the dog would have been teething during this time frame.

Gooser


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I mean if Ya think about it.
> 
> Baseball!!!
> 
> ...


Most of* life's little details *are a little more complicated than you would have us believe. Just ask Al, Izzy and Ari :razz:

http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/al.html

john


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## maryhill (Oct 9, 2005)

I just asked Bill to read the last new posts on page 11. He told me that T Pines had a really good insight and feeling for what would seem obvious. Nick was a member of the family, took walks, got caught nabbing food off the table, was quieted when he barked incessantly, reprimanded when he chewed on Bill's best boots, got to watch TV in Bill's lap, rode in the front seat when Bill went to the grocery store and a lot of other things that helped to build a relationship conducive to the training process. Bill also commended Chris Atkinson in his mathematical skills. If we had not edited any of the training everyone would have had to suffer through almost 13 hours of video material, so people that think some parts of the training sessions were edited out are correct. The material that was shown was the material that best displays the training process. As it was the DVD was around three hrs long. Bill is hoping Julie R. gets a puppy soon because she had the perfect reaction to his video. Bill reminds us all the time that the puppy video represents a philosophy of training and is not limited or defined by age or numbers of sessions.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Bill hopes they don't.
> 
> If we all follow this 'plan', Bill will not sell any dvds and there will be no incentive to make more in the future.
> 
> Go buy the thing so we can all see what comes next after the 28 days.:-x


No I plan to buy one next pay or the pay after. Felt it was so good. Whether I get another puppy is another matter. Three is enough and Sometimes my youngest member of the family has other ideas????


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

One more comment on the video... The one big thing I am taking away and is how positive bill is with the pup. I have watched several other videos and they focus way more on correction and some on praise. As you watch the video you don't see any harsh words or negative body language. This is something that most videos don't teach. That's the the incredible thing about the video. I have learned way more from watching how Bill stands and gestures than what he is saying, which is important too. 

One more thing. I can't say enough about Mary... I have had a few q's and emailed her for clarification and she has responded right away and usually quite in-depth answers to my q's. You can tell they are really good people and want to help. 

I can't wait for another video on the more formal obedience and file work vein.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

arklahunter said:


> One more comment on the video... The one big thing I am taking away and is how positive bill is with the pup. I have watched several other videos and they focus way more on correction and some on praise. As you watch the video you don't see any harsh words or negative body language. This is something that most videos don't teach. That's the the incredible thing about the video. I have learned way more from watching how Bill stands and gestures than what he is saying, which is important too.
> 
> One more thing. I can't say enough about Mary... I have had a few q's and emailed her for clarification and she has responded right away and usually quite in-depth answers to my q's. You can tell they are really good people and want to help.
> 
> I can't wait for another video on the more formal obedience and file work vein.


That was what I liked about it too; the pup is not only absorbing stuff from what must seem like mostly play to him; he's also learning how to learn and realizing his lessons and being with his human are the most fun part of his day. I'm not one of those all-positive believers--I do think corrections and consequences are necessary later in formal training; just not necessary for little pups. About the only thing I correct for is biting. I think, later when you do introduce consequences for disobedience to known commands, they handle it fine because by then they love training.


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

maryhill said:


> I just asked Bill to read the last new posts on page 11. He told me that T Pines had a really good insight and feeling for what would seem obvious. Nick was a member of the family, took walks, got caught nabbing food off the table, was quieted when he barked incessantly, reprimanded when he chewed on Bill's best boots, got to watch TV in Bill's lap, rode in the front seat when Bill went to the grocery store and a lot of other things that helped to build a relationship conducive to the training process. Bill also commended Chris Atkinson in his mathematical skills. If we had not edited any of the training everyone would have had to suffer through almost 13 hours of video material, so people that think some parts of the training sessions were edited out are correct. The material that was shown was the material that best displays the training process. As it was the DVD was around three hrs long. Bill is hoping Julie R. gets a puppy soon because she had the perfect reaction to his video. Bill reminds us all the time that the puppy video represents a philosophy of training and is not limited or defined by age or numbers of sessions.



Hi Mary
Thanks for chiming in and for the info! Thank you and Bill for a great puppy program!

Chris


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## CSX (Nov 9, 2011)

I think that there is also a website whereBill comments on videos sent in by people training their pups following his methods, but I can not find it again. Could someone please advise me where it can be found?


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

http://www.findretrievers.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=24

Look for a link under Bill Hillman's Balanced Retriever or something similar.


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## CSX (Nov 9, 2011)

Thank you for the quick reply!


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

You're quite welcome. It's definitely an area to take a look at, though it's been a bit slow the past couple of months.


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## bbmclain (May 23, 2011)

Just ordered the new Traffic Cop DVD......looking forward to it!!!


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## CSX (Nov 9, 2011)

I am also impressed by Bill's methods. The one faint concern I have is that the pup is steadied early, but still is the center of attention and learns that it will always get the retrieve if it is steady. I wonder if it might not be helpful ( for hunting situations, honoring and those interested in running British style trials) if sometimes other dogs get the retrieve as sort of expectation management (dog gets the retrieve if it is steady AND the handler asks it to do the job).


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2012)

CSX said:


> I am also impressed by Bill's methods. The one faint concern I have is that the pup is steadied early, but still is the center of attention and learns that it will always get the retrieve if it is steady. I wonder if it might not be helpful ( for hunting situations, honoring and those interested in running British style trials) if sometimes other dogs get the retrieve as sort of expectation management (dog gets the retrieve if it is steady AND the handler asks it to do the job).


Expectation management? That's a new one. ;-) Bill is addressing puppy training. You can get to steadying a dog with others retrieving when it's a little older.


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

I think the difference here is the pup is not steadied by traditional means meaning little or no aversives. What takes the drive out of pups is collar corrections for breaking. Think about it, the pup is taking off to retrieve the bumper just as he has always done and WHAP!, leash correction (or some type of correction). The pup associates the correction for retrieving instead of not sitting. If the pup is just sitting patiently, then the retrieve becomes a reward for sitting. 



CSX said:


> I am also impressed by Bill's methods. The one faint concern I have is that the pup is steadied early, but still is the center of attention and learns that it will always get the retrieve if it is steady. I wonder if it might not be helpful ( for hunting situations, honoring and those interested in running British style trials) if sometimes other dogs get the retrieve as sort of expectation management (dog gets the retrieve if it is steady AND the handler asks it to do the job).


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## bdwilliams (Jan 26, 2012)

This thread has been great. I'm starting my dog (about 10months old) off with this program, somewhat modified since she already knows sit, down, stay with no distractions, today. I've watched the video a few times and Hillman's method seems more appropriate/less harsh than others (although I haven't watch another puppy dvd). Thus far in our training, we haven't had to use much force (except for nipping) and I think the transition to this "program" should be easy for us. We'll see how we make out...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I'm not a big fan of sticking a pup, especially early on. You can usually tell in videos where they are obviously cringing with the whip out.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Some of my absolute favorite experiences of the Field Trial game have been the times I was campaigning Bus in derbies. Just about all that we ran, Bill was there running two dogs. *"Punch" is the one that stands out. The other was a female whose name I've forgotten.*
> 
> Bill has a very cool style. He's very approachable and open to sharing his thoughts. I'd gotten to know Bill a bit when he competed with Cutter in an event I helped put on a few years prior.
> 
> ...


 
Here's a funny thing. That sentence in bold...where I could not remember the other dog... He was a chocolate. His name is Nick! He's the star of the DVD Training a Retriever puppy by Bill Hillmann! haha!

Chris


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Here's a funny thing. That sentence in bold...where I could not remember the other dog... He was a chocolate. His name is Nick! He's the star of the DVD Training a Retriever puppy by Bill Hillmann! haha!
> 
> Chris



That's too cool! I looked him up on EntryExpress.net this morning too after watching the DVD this weekend. He's been pretty BUSY!

If you're logged in - https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/viewDogHistory.aspx?mdi=111865

Reg Name: Hawkeye's Victory at Sea


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Why change the training protocol. don't you think that further training could continue in the same vein?
> 
> John




Much to my satisfaction, Bill ,on Jan 31,2012, began to post THE follow up video segments for the continuation of training "in the same vein".......to be used for training after the puppy video and traffic cop left off.

As of 3/16 he had posted 9 of them....


http://www.billhillmann.net/basic-training-lessons/

Thanks Bill,

john


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## jackh (Oct 14, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Thanks, this skews my calcs done earlier just a touch. Same general concept though... On average a session is taped every 2.75 days using the above numbers.





maryhill said:


> I just asked Bill to read the last new posts on page 11. He told me that T Pines had a really good insight and feeling for what would seem obvious. Nick was a member of the family, took walks, got caught nabbing food off the table, was quieted when he barked incessantly, reprimanded when he chewed on Bill's best boots, got to watch TV in Bill's lap, rode in the front seat when Bill went to the grocery store and a lot of other things that helped to build a relationship conducive to the training process. Bill also commended Chris Atkinson in his mathematical skills. If we had not edited any of the training everyone would have had to suffer through almost 13 hours of video material, so people that think some parts of the training sessions were edited out are correct. The material that was shown was the material that best displays the training process. As it was the DVD was around three hrs long. Bill is hoping Julie R. gets a puppy soon because she had the perfect reaction to his video. Bill reminds us all the time that the puppy video represents a philosophy of training and is not limited or defined by age or numbers of sessions.


I know I am digging up a very old thread, but I just had a few questions. My copy is on its way to me in the mail right now, and I am getting a pup in August. Does Bill suggest you train session 1 on day 1, then session 2 on day 3 etc, with the normal things that maryhill mentioned everyday as a normal part of creating the relationship between you and the dog? Can you just repeat session 1 on day 2 before moving on? I am guessing it all depends on the dogs progression. I know repetition is key, just wondering how that comes about with just a 15 minute training session every other day or so. What exactly is he doing those 2.75 days between each taped training session? Repeating the previous session for repetition? Maybe I am misunderstanding some of these posts.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

jackh said:


> I know I am digging up a very old thread, but I just had a few questions. My copy is on its way to me in the mail right now, and I am getting a pup in August. Does Bill suggest you train session 1 on day 1, then session 2 on day 3 etc, with the normal things that maryhill mentioned everyday as a normal part of creating the relationship between you and the dog? Can you just repeat session 1 on day 2 before moving on? I am guessing it all depends on the dogs progression. I know repetition is key, just wondering how that comes about with just a 15 minute training session every other day or so. What exactly is he doing those 2.75 days between each taped training session? Repeating the previous session for repetition? Maybe I am misunderstanding some of these posts.


Read the part in red that you quoted. He does not repeat the day 1 training session on day two. Be patient and when you get the DVD watch the first 15 days or so, then go back and watch the days again before you do that session. Its really just hanging out and interacting with the dog between sessions. Its hard to imagine that it worls but it does.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

> The progression is going to be almost imperceptible to the puppy.
> - Bill Hillmann


Each training day is the same as the previous day, except for the tiny changes that depend upon the *quality* of pup's work. Repetition is key to the pup's learning. Bill calls this practice.

Bill presents his philosophy for training a "puppy". This philosophy is entirely _qualitative_, not _quantitative_. It really has nothing to do with the number of days, weeks, months or years old the puppy/dog is. And it really is not about a specific number of days of training either. You don't measure or determine your progress by counting anything. Everything depends on the *quality* of the pup's/dog's understanding of skills and concepts that are taught. Of course, the quality of the pup's understanding will depend upon the trainer's ability to teach. It is likely that you will progress at a slower rate than Bill Hillmann does because you will be learning and practicing this new philosophy and the methods for implementing this philosophy.

The philosophy that Bill teaches in the DVD is applicable to every interaction that you have with your pup, whether you are conducting a formal training session as demonstrated on the DVD, or during informal daily interaction, which is not demonstrated on the DVD. The pup's attitude, behavior and skill level reflects the sum total of all your interactions with your pup.

So, JackH, your goal will be to progress through Day 1, Day 2, Day 3, etc. of the material on the DVD based entirely upon the advancement of your pup's attitude, skills and behaviors and the advancement of your attitude, skills and behaviors as a trainer.

The duration and frequency of training sessions will be limited by both you and your pup's capacity to maintain optimal energy and attitude.

Jim


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## smemmott (Jan 7, 2011)

I have watched and trained all of my young dogs with Bill Hillman's DVD Training a retriever puppy with Bill Hillman. I think $129 is well worth the price. It is pretty basic, but there isn't enough that can be said about having a dogs with great basics and a solid foundation. Bill has had a lot of success in the derby and I think you can learn from this DVD.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Good thread, I just read the first five pages, so if this question has already been addressed I apologize. I was just wondering if the Hillman video is similar to Jackie Mertens "Sound Beginnings"? I have a new pup on the way, they were just born yesterday, so wohoo here we go go again! I really liked Sound Beginnings and used it with my last two dogs. At first I was skeptical about a treat based program but it worked so well, especially easy to get a two-sided sit with it, that now I love it. As far as I'm concerened, the serious amateur trainer should watch and understand as many programs as possible, watch every DVD available and read as much as you can, you can't have too much information

John


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> Good thread, I just read the first five pages, so if this question has already been addressed I apologize. I was just wondering if the Hillman video is similar to Jackie Mertens "Sound Beginnings"? I have a new pup on the way, they were just born yesterday, so wohoo here we go go again! I really liked Sound Beginnings and used it with my last two dogs. At first I was skeptical about a treat based program but it worked so well, especially easy to get a two-sided sit with it, that now I love it. As far as I'm concerened, the serious amateur trainer should watch and understand as many programs as possible, watch every DVD available and read as much as you can, you can't have too much information
> 
> John



Wayne should be able to answer that question soon.

If I'm not mistaken he just switched his pup "Rowdy" from Mertens to Hillman 

Time will tell how they compliment each other.

Randy


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## mfrye01 (Jun 19, 2012)

I've not seen the Hillman video. I can recommend the Danny Farmer & Judy Aycock video and the Evan Graham videos.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

John Robinson said:


> Good thread, I just read the first five pages, so if this question has already been addressed I apologize. I was just wondering if the Hillman video is similar to Jackie Mertens "Sound Beginnings"? I have a new pup on the way, they were just born yesterday, so wohoo here we go go again! I really liked Sound Beginnings and used it with my last two dogs. At first I was skeptical about a treat based program but it worked so well, especially easy to get a two-sided sit with it, that now I love it. As far as I'm concerened, the serious amateur trainer should watch and understand as many programs as possible, watch every DVD available and read as much as you can, you can't have too much information
> 
> John


It is very different from Mertens. I used Mertens with my first three dogs and Hillman with the most recent. I started at 10 weeks or so. Hillman is a daily training sequence that resulted, in my case, with a steady dog that trains with a good attitude, and is pretty obedient. He is about 7 months old and really fun to train. The most important things I got from it are balance in training and "keep 'em happy". The training increments from day to day are very small. Each day builds on the previous one. There is no set schedule set. He just adds a little bit more to each lesson each day. It is elegant in its simplicity and easy to understand. Well worth the money for the knowledge Bill is sharing.


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## Bnew17 (Nov 29, 2011)

Ive watched both Hillman and Mertens. I had been doing Mertens program with my pup until my Hillmans Dvd came in the mail and i like the HIllmans much better. It more structured it seems and fits ME better. I have seen the numbers some of yall have broke down that says each training "day" last a few actual day before moving on to the next. My question is , If you feel your pup hasnt fully "grasp" what your doing should you hold back until you feel he understands it? I know on Mertens dvd she says that but i dont remember hearing Hillman mention anything about what to do if the pup isnt ready to move to the next progression or day. Thanks


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Much to my satisfaction, Bill ,on Jan 31,2012, began to post THE follow up video segments for the continuation of training "in the same vein".......to be used for training after the puppy video and traffic cop left off.
> 
> As of 3/16 he had posted 9 of them....
> 
> ...


With the soon to be comming of his new basics video there is now no reason not to continue training your young dog, as I sugested earlier in this thread, "in the same vein". Right Mike

john


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## drbobsd (Feb 21, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Much to my satisfaction, Bill ,on Jan 31,2012, began to post THE follow up video segments for the continuation of training "in the same vein".......to be used for training after the puppy video and traffic cop left off.
> 
> As of 3/16 he had posted 9 of them....
> 
> ...


John, I'm sure their will be plenty of additional videos to come.

I believe anyone with a fire breathing retriever puppy would do that dog a disservice not using Bill Hillman's material. Imagine that little fire breather sitting calmly watching birds down then unleashing that dog's God given talents.

I like to start our little ones with my wife doing crate training, house manners while using Sound Beginnings material. As things progress we move to Bill Hillman's puppy program. I'm thinking Bill prob wouldn't have any problem interspersing treat training in house while working on his puppy program.

I like Bill's "The Fetch Command" much more than the fetch command on the later part of the original "puppy" DVD.

I think all of DVD's including upcoming ones with the additional blog and U-tube info make for an amazing ever expanding training philosophy. I feel my dogs are ready to stay and train at home or excel with a professional trainer.

I truly believe this training method just feels right and fair to the amazing animals we are molding. It's all about "Balance".

Also remember "Never get mad a puppy!!" (sometimes hard to do) or any of our older retrieving buddies.

My wife Mary thinks Bill should have said "Never get mad at a puppy or your wife" in the original puppy DVD.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

A lot of the first videos posted on their YouTube Channel have been removed. Mrs. Mary said b/c those were going to the Basics DVD. They still have a lot left there on the channel.

http://www.youtube.com/user/maryhill444


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

As far as I know, they were posting most of their more recent videos at http://www.billhillmann.net/blog/

You can go through the archives there. It hasn't been updated much lately as they were preparing for the video, but there's a lot of great stuff there as he seems to be going more and more in his own direction.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

mattm337 said:


> As far as I know, they were posting most of their more recent videos at http://www.billhillmann.net/blog/
> 
> You can go through the archives there. It hasn't been updated much lately as they were preparing for the video, but there's a lot of great stuff there as he seems to be going more and more in his own direction.


Yea if you'll note those videos are embedded _YouTube_ Videos on Mrs. Mary's YouTube Channel I listed above. 

They upload them to their YouTube Channel and then embed them on Bill's Blog.


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

I understand that. Was trying to point out they're easier to access through the blog.


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