# *NEW Vid* In the field - Hunt Test Training by Evan G.



## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

> The new *'In The Field'* DVD that is in the works.
> The first of its kind, it is a program for HUNT TEST Retrievers!


I subscribe to Evan on Youtube and saw this pop up.

_SHARED_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJkrEFsCqTs







/


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

It it the first of its kind. Sure Lardy, Farmer, Rick S, Hickock just to name a few have put out videos that all state that this training apply's to all dogs, gundogs, HT dogs, FT dogs. Fact is, what the heck do they know....


/Paul


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

2:20 in the vid. nice steady to flush!


.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> The first of its kind, it is a program for HUNT TEST Retrievers!


I would be more interested in a DVD from someone who has run hunt tests and gone to the master national.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> I would be more interested in a DVD from someone who has run hunt tests and gone to the master national.



This and
Looks like we have a new Fred on rtf


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I would be more interested in a DVD from someone who has run hunt tests and gone to the master national.


I agree with Nancy, I’m sure Evan Graham is a fine trainer but I have never found any evidence that he has ever run a hunt test or a field trial. As far as the youtube video goes the white coats and distance tells me some of these people are training for field trials not hunt tests. For those of us that has run both there is a hugh difference.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> 2:20 in the vid. nice steady to flush!
> 
> 
> .



Well, I am certainly no expert, but I thought the same thing! Those dogs were having too much fun!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Well I subscribe to almost EVERY Dog Trainer that has a Youtube Channel. To include DU with Deke the Dog and many others. 

Don't kill the messenger, I have none of Evan's Programs


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> It it the first of its kind. Sure Lardy, Farmer, Rick S, Hickock just to name a few have put out videos that all state that this training apply's to all dogs, gundogs, HT dogs, FT dogs. Fact is, what the heck do they know....
> /Paul


What distinguishes this program from others is that it’s not a program the broadly applies to various venues, with a loose reference to hunt test applications, but rather that it is devoted to preparing dog & handler purely for those events in tandem with the gundog-only retriever. Hunt test set-ups, hunt test concepts & presentation are evolved from drill work that involve “white coats”, but only for the teaching of concepts. It’s being presented for hunt testers at any level, but especially for those just starting out.


Ken Bora said:


> 2:20 in the vid. nice steady to flush!


Not everyone does that. Further in that section the same dog is taught sit-to-flush. That was her first day @ quarter & flush, but then no one is asking any questions here so far; only criticism.


ErinsEdge said:


> I would be more interested in a DVD from someone who has run hunt tests and gone to the master national.


I’ve trained 3 MH’s, and have attended tests in other venues, including some of the footage on that preview. More than 80% of my seminars are hosted by HRC clubs. At the 2011 Canadian Master National were at least a half dozen MH's belonging to people I coach in training & handling each year. I'm very familiar with hunt test prep.


badbullgator said:


> This and
> Looks like we have a new Fred on rtf


So far no one seems to have any intellectual curiosity. Only snide remarks. What a surprise.

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

OK, I'll bite Evan,
When "Teaching" steady to shot. What is the benefit to keep shooting after the dog breaks? Do you find it harder to steady a dog to flush after you have let it run like the dog in the vid? Have you ever instructed the gunners to stop shooting, when the dog runs past them, and let the birds fly away. So as to not reward the pup with a bird?
those are my training questions.
As for video commentary. Were you aware that your voice over at the very end of the sample. The text you are reading. Stating how the training for the hunter, or hunt test or trials.... Is almost word for word what Mike Lardy states in the opening sequence of Total Retriever Training, in the barn with the hay bales? And he did that vid in like 1998ish didn't he? That, and the first ever line are what pooped out at me.
　
.


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## hrkplabs (Apr 26, 2006)

Ken Bora said:


> As for video commentary. Were you aware that your voice over at the very end of the sample. The text you are reading. Stating how the training for the hunter, or hunt test or trials.... Is almost word for word what Mike Lardy states in the opening sequence of Total Retriever Training, in the barn with the hay bales? And he did that vid in like 1998ish didn't he? That, and the first ever line are what pooped out at me.
> 
> .


 If its the truth and its common sense should it surprise you that two people in the same trade would say almost the same thing.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2012)

I have a question.
Were those real guns with real ammo being fired over that dogs head?


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Evan,

It looks like you need to educate the 'group' on your past field trial experience!

One thing that some people do not understand is that some people are good/great do-ers (pros) AND teachers.
Some are good/great teachers and not as involved in the do-ing as they were in the past (and were good/great).

A person's lifestyle and preferences determine if they are more interested in sharing knowledge by teaching - or showing how talented they can be at the job by actively 'performing'. 

Not everyone has the time or interest in pursuing a career training dogs for years and years, and need not be criticized for not having done so. All field pros are teachers of dogs and people, eventually. 

Debbie


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I am looking forward to viewing the entire DVD. Is it ready yet?


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## Kyle_U (Oct 5, 2011)

Anyone know when this DVD will be available?


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

Nobody getting slammed in the thread on Non trialing pro's.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> 2:20 in the vid. nice steady to flush!
> 
> 
> .


My thoughts exactly, Ken.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

rooster said:


> I have a question.
> Were those real guns with real ammo being fired over that dogs head?


Rooster, 

Thanks for your question. It’s interesting that no one thought to ask that first before firing criticism. Yes, they were blanks, and it’s explained in the “Upland” section of the program that follows. I appreciate your inquiry.


Codatango said:


> Evan,
> 
> It looks like you need to educate the 'group' on your past field trial experience! One thing that some people do not understand is that some people are good/great do-ers (pros) AND teachers. Some are good/great teachers and not as involved in the do-ing as they were in the past (and were good/great). A person's lifestyle and preferences determine if they are more interested in sharing knowledge by teaching - or showing how talented they can be at the job by actively 'performing'.
> 
> ...


Thanks Debbie. I’ve sort of been there and done that here on RTF. My record is permanently posted on my site if anyone still hasn’t read it. But there will always be some snipers who don’t really care about the facts as much as their personal bones to pick.

You’re right. I have a gift for teaching. But, as you also pointed out so well, my life is not arranged so as to be compatible with a life chasing events and points. I did it for a while, and it was fun. I’m as big a fan as field trials have, and was one of the earliest participants in AKC hunt tests. It just doesn’t fit – most of all with my family life, and that is more important than anything to me.


Ken Bora said:


> OK, I'll bite Evan,
> When "Teaching" steady to shot. What is the benefit to keep shooting after the dog breaks? Do you find it harder to steady a dog to flush after you have let it run like the dog in the vid? Have you ever instructed the gunners to stop shooting, when the dog runs past them, and let the birds fly away. So as to not reward the pup with a bird?
> those are my training questions.


Teaching “steady to shot” was not what we were doing in that clip, so the reasoning for doing so in that clip is different. Not that it deserves to be quite this large an issue, we did it with that dog in that instance to get her more excited. She had come home from a pro that had dog a fairly weak job with her training, and had used pressure excessively. We spent quite a bit of time styling her up. They were blanks.

Yes, I have instructed gunners to stop shooting for those very reasons; especially for both safety and withholding the bird as a reward.


Ken Bora said:


> As for video commentary. Were you aware that your voice over at the very end of the sample. The text you are reading. Stating how the training for the hunter, or hunt test or trials.... Is almost word for word what Mike Lardy states in the opening sequence of Total Retriever Training, in the barn with the hay bales? And he did that vid in like 1998ish didn't he? That, and the first ever line are what pooped out at me.


It doesn’t surprise me that we would say very similar things, as we agree on so many issues. I’ve been saying it for decades. But I appreciate your willingness to ask. I’ve always appreciated that about you.

We hope to have this project ready in about 45 days, if the weather continues to be mild. Thanks to all who asked.

Evan


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## logy (Oct 27, 2010)

Evan,


I have been waiting for this release. My question is can you give us a run down on the conteny of this dvd. As in the chapter or is that information top secret until the release .


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm finalizing the chapter names right now. But out of respect for Chris, I would prefer that anyone who wants to know any details about it email me at [email protected] and I can provide very detailed information. 

As War Hammer stated, he is a subscriber to my You Tube page. He simply asked me if he could post this preview, and I agreed. I don't want this to become a promotion for it, _or_ a source of contention.

Thanks!

Evan


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

ErinsEdge said:


> I would be more interested in a DVD from someone who has run hunt tests and gone to the master national.





Evan said:


> So far no one seems to have any intellectual curiosity. Only snide remarks. What a surprise.
> 
> Evan


Evan, it never ceases to amaze me how some people can trash talk a program before they have even looked at it. They all are interested in the "accomplishments" of the author, more than the quality of the book and how it lays the foundation for the dog. Your program is very easy to follow and well laid out, especially for a new trainer who has no concept yet. Contrast that with another great program that some hunt test people would die standing up for, yet that trainer has never run a Hunt test in his life. 
Interesting. 

Keep up the good work Evan, look forward to seeing this new DVD. Is it the whole program on it, or more for preparing an already trained dog for the next test?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Keep up the good work Evan, look forward to seeing this new DVD. Is it the whole program on it, or more for preparing an already trained dog for the next test?


Thanks Abby. You're very kind. This program is different, even from anything I have done before. There are a couple reasons for that.

I've already detailed Basics, so no sense doing that over for this. The Basics are the same.
The skills acquired during Transition are also the same in their basic form.
This program is a detailed guide for any dog at any level as they go along in training to connect the mechanical aspects of what they know so far to specific Hunt Test prep. 

It's all based on a new 3-column flow chart. Perhaps this might go a ways toward answering those who wanted to know about content. The column on the left categorizes your dog by level of development, like "Late Basics; water force & swim-by". The column in the middle is suggested fieldwork (greatly expanded and focused on hunt test specific work). The column on the right lists appropriate classes in hunt tests for dogs at all the various levels of development. All of this is designed so the trainer doesn't get ahead of the dog, and keeps them on a steady path of progression.

There are many more areas of study, like handling tips, how to choose and use available grounds & water...that type of thing. Much, much more.

Evan


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## Deleted On Request (Jan 28, 2011)

Evan, is the flowchart available to view yet?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes. At my site through this link. http://www.rushcreekpress.com/glossaryofterms.html

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

rooster said:


> I have a question.
> Were those real guns with real ammo being fired over that dogs head?


I have the same question and if so it is not a safe way to be shooting!!!! Dog should have been called back and steadied and no guns going off until dog in control!!!! IMHO I am not trash talking the program. It looked good but an explanation is needed as it is contrary to gun safety and dogs in a hunting scenario.


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## Deleted On Request (Jan 28, 2011)

Evan said:


> Yes. At my site through this link. http://www.rushcreekpress.com/glossaryofterms.html
> 
> Evan


Thanks. That flows with where I think Tonka and I are in relation to running tests and his training level.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I have the same question and if so it is not a safe way to be shooting!!!! Dog should have been called back and steadied and no guns going off until dog in control!!!! IMHO I am not trash talking the program. It looked good but an explanation is needed as it is contrary to gun safety and dogs in a hunting scenario.


Read the thread and you would have already had that answer.


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## MattC (Oct 10, 2011)

It continuously amazes me how many people can be so ignorant and condescending, especially over the Internet. I can guarantee you that most all of these people would not say some of these things in person. Grow up people. If you don't like it then don't read it or watch it. No one is making you. Sheesh.


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

I know Evan is always willing to answer questions on multiple sites.......Thanks for taking the time to do so! Much appreciated........

Good luck with the video Evan!!!!


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## Peter G Lippert (Mar 26, 2011)

Evan said:


> *You’re right. I have a gift for teaching*. But, as you also pointed out so well, my life is not arranged so as to be compatible..."
> 
> You did a great job training me and helped out Ruger in the process. Great video!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

claimsadj said:


> Read the thread and you would have already had that answer.


Yes I read this explaination: 


"Teaching “steady to shot” was not what we were doing in that clip, so the reasoning for doing so in that clip is different. Not that it deserves to be quite this large an issue, we did it with that dog in that instance to get her more excited. She had come home from a pro that had dog a fairly weak job with her training, and had used pressure excessively. We spent quite a bit of time styling her up. They were blanks.

Yes, I have instructed gunners to stop shooting for those very reasons; especially for both safety and withholding the bird as a reward."

But I saw the dog running and gun shots were being fired. I question that IMHO. I am not sure I understand the method behind this?Sorry???


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Out of my league here, but, talk about a guy that has put in the time to help other RTFers., Evan is the only pro I have seen here repeatedly answering the myriad of questions that could have been searched. I respect that. I will purchase the video when complete. Good luck Evan. You have a tough audience!


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## WhackndStack6 (Aug 10, 2011)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Yes I read this explaination:
> 
> 
> "Teaching “steady to shot” was not what we were doing in that clip, so the reasoning for doing so in that clip is different. Not that it deserves to be quite this large an issue, we did it with that dog in that instance to get her more excited. She had come home from a pro that had dog a fairly weak job with her training, and had used pressure excessively. We spent quite a bit of time styling her up. They were blanks.[/B][/COLOR]
> ...


I do believe again if you would've read carefully Mr. Graham explained his reasoning behind the blanks being fired!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Here's the thing, whether some here want to accept it or not - Evan Graham is very knowledgeable about retriever training and he is a very effective communicator and teacher.

A while back I was watching a show on the Golf Channel featuring the guy who used to be Tiger Woods' swing coach. In the series I was watching the guy was teaching Rush Limbaugh. Anyway, at some point it makes you think, if this guy is good enough to teach Tiger Woods something about golf and golf swings why haven't I seen him on tour?

Now I don't think Evan is teaching anyone who is the Tiger Woods of retriever training, but I still think it is a valid illustration that one doesn't necessarily have to have reached the absolute pinnacle of a particular endeavor in order to be an effective teacher about same. When I attended one of his seminars about 6 1/2 years ago, everyone present was glad they attended. If you know as much or more about retriever training as Evan, as some of you truly do, congratulations. However most of us do not.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

7pntail said:


> Out of my league here, but, talk about a guy that has put in the time to help other RTFers., Evan is the only pro I have seen here repeatedly answering the myriad of questions that could have been searched. I respect that. I will purchase the video when complete. Good luck Evan. You have a tough audience!


Evan isn't a pro.


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## Ryan M (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here, I'm sort of a newbie to training, I only have 3 outta 4 JH passes on my 2 yr old dog. This is an honest observation and question.

I dont understand why everyone gives Evan a hard time? Could someone fill me in on this? As far as I've seen he makes a nice video and has certainly taught me a thing or two. If a guy like me went through his training system I'm sure he would get a very well trained enjoyable dog. He also seems like a stand up guy, Any question I've seen asked of him he has answered. 

I also never see him blast other peoples videos/work. He often reccommend's a multi-media approach.

I dont know what Evan G's hunt test record might be, but has every coach in the NFL played professional football?

Honest question, answer me in a PM if you have to.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> But I saw the dog running and gun shots were being fired. I question that IMHO. I am not sure I understand the method behind this?Sorry???


Mary Lynn I'm pretty open about answering reasoned inquiries. If there is more you would like explained I'm happy to do it. All anyone needs to do is ask.

Evan


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> Evan isn't a pro.


 Got it. A pro is...? 

IMHO, Evan has been very helpful to many, with little regard for financial gain. Truthfully, most of his help has been with new folks, the future generation of our sport. That's a good thing. It is an intimidating sport. I have not seen one condescending word in his posts. I like that. Is he the best trainer in the world? Dunno, but I like character and honesty. And, no doubt, he knows dawgs. 

I, admittedly have not read his program, but I like his simple approach( based on posts) and almost always agree with advice given on RTF. 

What is the definition of a pro? Just curious?


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Ryan M said:


> I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here, I'm sort of a newbie to training, I only have 3 outta 4 JH passes on my 2 yr old dog. This is an honest observation and question.
> 
> I dont understand why everyone gives Evan a hard time? Could someone fill me in on this? As far as I've seen he makes a nice video and has certainly taught me a thing or two. If a guy like me went through his training system I'm sure he would get a very well trained enjoyable dog. He also seems like a stand up guy, Any question I've seen asked of him he has answered.
> 
> ...


 Where is the like button? Excellent post.


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## CanAmMan (Sep 28, 2007)

7pntail said:


> Evan is the only pro I have seen here repeatedly answering the myriad of questions that could have been searched. I respect that.


That is because most pros are too busy outside actually training dogs to have time to post much.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

CanAmMan said:


> That is because most pros are too busy outside actually training dogs to have time to post much.


There seems to be a bit of mystery about what constitutes a "pro". A pro retriever trainer trains other people's dogs or handles them in events for a fee. I used to be a pro. I now train trainers, and that means I am no longer a pro. I give seminars at which those attending usually bring their dogs, and I teach them to be more effective.

I hope that clears up any confusion about this.

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

How will you handle the difference in rules between venues? They are very different?

/Paul


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> ......Teaching “steady to shot” was not what we were doing in that clip.......
> 
> ......we did it with that dog in that instance to get her more excited. She had come home from a pro that had dog a fairly weak job with her training, and had used pressure excessively. We spent quite a bit of time styling her up. They were blanks.
> 
> ...


Focus Evan Focus.........
this is rapidly swirling into gobbledygook.;-)
before it does, a follow up question.
Not for you ('cause you would know how) but for all the new kids reading and watching your vid. I actually understand your "styling her up" comment. And I even remember how SOME of the field trial folk, when doing puppy marks years back would hardly steady pups. Wanting them to run, run, run. Because they could always steady them later.
BUT.......
A school of thought has crept in gradually over time. Many do not do something to fix an issue, that will in itself cause another issue.
So Evan, the actual follow up question of mine would be...... 
Is showing the green horns a technique for an issue, that will cause another issue, that they, because they are green will not be easily able to train out of, wise?
In this instance teaching a dog how to break to flush, to make it happy.
Would a live bird duck chase in the old fashioned way, "style up" the dog without teaching it other bad habits that you need to train away from later?
　
an honest question.
　
.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Not to offend anyone: Teaching the dog to break flush is interesting way of training to get a dog excited. It looks as if the dog veered from the noise of the shots. Preferably I would have like to see the dog being taught the way Ken describes and then the dog has something to get excited about and a reward at the end. Now I know for everyone out there on RTF this is only a short clip and yes I am told I am misunderstanding the method here, but I was only making a comment about the method which I disagree with IMHO. I am not criticizing Mr. Graham and I do appreciate all that he has contributed but when you show something contrary then I am making a comment.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

She had come home from a pro that had dog a fairly weak job with her training, and had used pressure excessively.

Just my opinion -
you don't want to give any commands that could cause confusion or shut down the dog. As far as teaching an unwanted behavior that would need to be unttrained - who really cares? Better to have a dog that goes than a dog that shuts down. 

Doesn't sound like the nit-pickers have much to hold on to.

Simple reason is b/c it's a pretty darn good video.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

pixiebee said:


> .... As far as teaching an unwanted behavior that would need to be unttrained - who really cares? .......


um,
The Dog 

edit to add a mental image.
Say your dog was a very picky eater. So to encourage your dog to eat you start letting him jump up on the kitchen table. It makes him happy and the dog eats. Then its Sunday Easter Dinner and the hole family is over and Grandma Huffy strolls into the kitchen and there is your dog, ears deep in the mashed potatoes. So she clobbers the heck out of him with that goofy stand up by itself cane she carries. As your dog sulks in the corner he thinks "Gosh that was not fair. I always eat off of the table???"
　
　
.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

pixiebee said:


> As far as teaching an unwanted behavior that would need to be unttrained - who really cares? Better to have a dog that goes than a dog that shuts down.
> 
> .


I care. 
Always better to establish good habits, than attempt to fix bad ones.
Also, no it is not better. A dog that breaks consistently is just as bad as one that won't go.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

I want a hunting dog with GO,GO, GO and some more GO.
I want my hunting dogs to hunt and retrieve or they can live with someone else.

Manners and obedience away from hunting/training can be taught,gently, with no ill affect.
Same can be introduced in the field after the dog has the GO put back in.

Upping the prey drive will increase the dog's hardness - a dog that has a decent level of hardness can have (some) pressure put on with no ill affect.

It's all about the dog and what works.
The balance.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

A dog that breaks consistently is just as bad as one that won't go.

Do you really believe this?

It's not this way in the pointing dog world.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Not to offend anyone: Teaching the dog to break flush is interesting way of training to get a dog excited. It looks as if the dog veered from the noise of the shots. Preferably I would have like to see the dog being taught the way Ken describes and then the dog has something to get excited about and a reward at the end. Now I know for everyone out there on RTF this is only a short clip and yes I am told I am misunderstanding the method here, but I was only making a comment about the method which I disagree with IMHO. I am not criticizing Mr. Graham and I do appreciate all that he has contributed but when you show something contrary then I am making a comment.


Mary, I don't know if you missed it but Evan explained the situation in post #18.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> um,
> The Dog
> 
> edit to add a mental image.
> ...


Mr Ken,
Let's say your dog was at a trainer who was a tad heavy handed with the dog and it shut down.

What would *YOU* do to perk the drive and desire back up?


Thanks,


stan b


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

*NEW Vid* In the field - Hunt Test Training by Evan G.
Quote:
The new 'In The Field' DVD that is in the works. 
The first of its kind, it is a program for HUNT TEST Retrievers*
[/QUOTE]
Title, and original post..



pixiebee said:


> A dog that breaks consistently is just as bad as one that won't go.
> 
> Do you really believe this?
> 
> It's not this way in the pointing dog world.


Yes. I do believe it.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

Remember this topic is about a dog that had weak training and excessive pressure with negative results.

Are you saying you would rather have a dog that has obedience and no GO over a dog that has GO and no obedience?

Do you hunt or test?

How do you expect to recover birds and bumpers with a dog that won't GO?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Originally Posted by pixiebee 
A dog that breaks consistently is just as bad as one that won't go.

Do you really believe this?

It's not this way in the pointing dog world. 

I agree with Charlotte and I disagree with your statement.Having had GSP FT dogs.One FC/AFC etc, breeding is what gives you drive and desire.Just the same as retrievers at some point you have to start getting the dog broke (pointing dog terms for finished or trained).A pointing dog that breaks is just as bad as a retriever that breaks.Can't win with a breaking dog.Put the leash on and go home time.
Just as an FYI I have a BLF that's now running trials that was washed because of too much pressure before I got her.I made the game fun again but still kept the standards up.She was never ALLOWED to break.So far has jammed two Quals and my pro says she is continuing to improve.

Jeff Gruber


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## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

Good point Stan! 
It seems as if we want to critique the work of others when put in a situation that is beyond the Tech Data -- lardy articles, videos, local pro's knowledge. So your dog is not performing as good as your training partners, nor the dog in the video, nor the dog you want. So you have to OMG think outside the box, do and or try whatever you can to get the dog moving, get the dog liking / chasing birds for example. 
Ken ?? What will you do when your dog does not perform or do an act that you have read or watched Lardy's dogs do? You are going to go to your training grounds in vermont and work thru the issue how you seem fit. You are not going to post on this forum what you did or you are not going to admit that is was not in line with your lardy articles. But what you did may or may not work and you will stick that piece of gained knowledge in your back pocket for use later on down the road. So Ken your new pup has zero bird drive. What is your program to get that dog birdy? ??
Some people forget that just because you are following so and so's program your dog is not going to perform as those dogs in the videos. Don't fool yourself, you are buying videos that are cut and edited and cut on some more until you see a FINAL production. You don't see what was done to the dog when the camera wasn't rolling, you don't see what the trainer did to get the dog to do what was commanded on the second take. YES I would let a pup break for any and every bird he wanted to if he had zero drive. Then when he is drooling and blood thirsty I would work in a rope and restraint. I would create a breaking problem if that was the way I deemed was the best way to train MY DOG that had little drive. I wouldn't come to the internet and I wouldn't watch a video that doesn't cover the problem. This is not a one method works for all dogs, life we live in. 

It was touched on earlier. How many MASTERS did Tiger Woods Golf Coach WIN? How many Superbowl rings does Mike Singletary have? OK how many Superbowl rings does Mike Singletary have as a head coach? The examples and list could go on.
Those of you that want to spat on Evans work, why don't you list your accomplishments? Ken do you have an FC? AFC? MHR? Why not? You are following the best program on the market? What is your hold up. 
Here I will go first. I spent 23 years in the military, then I was FORTUNATE enough to get picked up with another job, so my dog training days are Sat and Sun and those are the Sat and Sun that I am not doing Husband / Father duties. In the spring and summer I try to get out for 3 hours a night. Pretty limited time to train dogs. You will not see me in call backs but you will see me in the fields in the fall hunting behind the best hunting dogs I can train with my limited time and knoweldge. Thanks Evan!


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

Originally Posted by pixiebee 
A dog that breaks consistently is just as bad as one that won't go.

Do you really believe this?

It's not this way in the pointing dog world. 

I agree with Charlotte and I disagree with your statement.Having had GSP FT dogs.One FC/AFC etc, breeding is what gives you drive and desire.Just the same as retrievers at some point you have to start getting the dog broke (pointing dog terms for finished or trained).A pointing dog that breaks is just as bad as a retriever that breaks.Can't win with a breaking dog.Put the leash on and go home time.
Just as an FYI I have a BLF that's now running trials that was washed because of too much pressure before I got her.I made the game fun again but still kept the standards up.She was never ALLOWED to break.So far has jammed two Quals and my pro says she is continuing to improve.
Did everyone forget that this topic is about a dog who has suffered a negative affect from harsh training????
Every dog is different - as far as I know - this dog's additional individual issues were not disclosed. 

A FT GSP. 
Tell me, if that dog did not have GO would it be worth running FTs?

Breeding gives drive and desire AND harsh training can take it away.
Maybe you can't win with a breaking dog, but we are not talking about winning - we are talking about a dog that has no chance to make it to the line or the field b/c there is no GO in the dog.
You need GO before anything else.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

pixiebee said:


> Originally Posted by pixiebee
> A dog that breaks consistently is just as bad as one that won't go.
> 
> Do you really believe this?
> ...




Pixibee Did not forget that it was a dog that had harsh training!! And I Read what was in explanation 18. I believe that there was a better way to present getting a dog excited IMHO. Evan has explained enough and I am grateful for that. There will always be differences of opinion and differences in methods.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Not to offend anyone: Teaching the dog to break flush is interesting way of training to get a dog excited. It looks as if the dog veered from the noise of the shots. Preferably I would have like to see the dog being taught the way Ken describes and then the dog has something to get excited about and a reward at the end. Now I know for everyone out there on RTF this is only a short clip and yes I am told I am misunderstanding the method here, but I was only making a comment about the method which I disagree with IMHO. I am not criticizing Mr. Graham and I do appreciate all that he has contributed but when you show something contrary then I am making a comment.


Its funny, I watched that clip 6 times and I did not see in any way that that dog reacted at all to the shots being fired. The dog never veered from the noised it followed the flight of the bird the whole way, never reacting to the shot IMO.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Focus Evan Focus.........
> …A school of thought has crept in gradually over time. Many do not do something to fix an issue, that will in itself cause another issue.


Good point, Ken. And it relates to what Mary Lynn wrote. It is something that usually takes a trainer lots of time, and several dogs – sometimes many dogs – to come to grips with. A lesson we all have to learn is that there are very few absolutes in dog training, if any. In the end we learn to balance and prioritize. That’s the case here.

I have had to decide on a better course for a given dog based on what I determined to be its greatest needs. I’ve sometimes made that choice, knowing that it may create a problem I’ll have to fix later. That’s based on what matters most. One thing I’ve had to reconcile myself to is the fact that no matter how much good information I give people, I cannot reach inside them and infuse them with experience. I believe this is a lesson that only experience can teach, much like learning to read dogs accurately.


Ken Bora said:


> So Evan, the actual follow up question of mine would be......
> Is showing the green horns a technique for an issue, that will cause another issue, that they, because they are green will not be easily able to train out of, wise? (In this instance teaching a dog how to break to flush, to make it happy.)
> Would a live bird duck chase in the old fashioned way, "style up" the dog without teaching it other bad habits that you need to train away from later?


It depends on how you teach it. Many lessons must be taught by casting them in a practical light, complete with cautions. Each drill or procedure I teach is presented with a stated scope and purpose. Along with that are any cautions connected with doing it. If I believe there is a secondary risk in suggesting a procedure, I point it out, and offer appropriate caution. That’s all anyone can do in a single medium. That’s one of the best arguments in behalf of getting both books and videos. If anyone asked me about what Lardy materials they should consider getting, I uniformly recommend all of them; articles and all. Each medium has its own strengths and inherent weaknesses.


Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Not to offend anyone: Teaching the dog to break flush is interesting way of training to get a dog excited.


I, for one, am not offended at an honest inquiry. I understand your thinking, and it relates to Ken’s points also. I’ll get to the core issue in a moment. However, I do want to mention that this brief scene is just that; a brief scene, and is not a lesson in “How to style up a bugged dog 101”. We just decided to load up with poppers and let her get excited about flushing and chasing a bird. We had her do that on about 6 birds that day, sitting her to flush as we went. We didn’t just want to wade into that with her because she was still a bit fragile at that point. It worked out nicely, and she has good expectations during quarter & flush as a result. Absolutely nothing wrong with your question. I appreciate it.


Mary Lynn Metras said:


> It looks as if the dog veered from the noise of the shots.


Not a bit. She’s just chasing the bird. I was on the right, Pat (her owner) was on the left, just off camera.


Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Preferably I would have like to see the dog being taught the way Ken describes and then the dog has something to get excited about and a reward at the end.


I think there is merit in that approach. This is just one of those decision points where we chose an unconventional approach for this dog, based on what we know of her. The lesson on video really had very little to do with all of this, but you have each made good points.


Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Now I know for everyone out there on RTF this is only a short clip and yes I am told I am misunderstanding the method here, but I was only making a comment about the method which I disagree with IMHO.


Again, I appreciate questions. They provide opportunities to at least explain what may not be clear on the surface.


Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I am not criticizing Mr. Graham and I do appreciate all that he has contributed but when you show something contrary then I am making a comment.


Thank you.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> How will you handle the difference in rules between venues? They are very different?
> 
> /Paul


Good point. I have had to weigh carefully my approach to this. I have quite a bit of video stored from AKC, HRC, and NAHRA events I’ve attended. I’m not going to laud one over another, of course. But I will point out the various differences that handlers will need to know to abide by the rules, and to handle their dogs appropriately in each. While doing that I’ll be able to provide information about what to expect. Everybody was new once.

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> um,
> The Dog
> 
> edit to add a mental image.
> Say your dog was a very picky eater. So to encourage your dog to eat you start letting him jump up on the kitchen table. It makes him happy and the dog eats. Then its Sunday Easter Dinner and the hole family is over and Grandma Huffy strolls into the kitchen and there is your dog, ears deep in the mashed potatoes. So she clobbers the heck out of him with that goofy stand up by itself cane she carries. As your dog sulks in the corner he thinks "Gosh that was not fair. I always eat off of the table???"


It’s a good point, but I think a weak analogy. A robotically obedient retriever that doesn’t want to go isn’t going hunting with me, and surely won’t appear at a hunt test with me as handler. What we’re seeking here is a balance. I know you understand, Ken. But there is getting to be a lot of back & forth over something much smaller than all of this. What we got in about 3 weeks’ time is a dog that loves to quarter & flush, but now sits to flush. No method, especially for a special-needs dog, will establish something like that _balance_ in a single session. Again, I know you realize that.


cakaiser said:


> I care.
> *Always* better to establish good habits, than attempt to fix bad ones.
> Also, no it is not better. A dog that breaks consistently is just as bad as one that won't go.


For this little girl we didn’t have that luxury, Charlotte. Someone had already sloppily trained her. But more importantly had driven her zest for her work down needlessly. Personally, I don’t think anything is _always_ better, except being fair to the dog. And I don't think a ribbon is worth robbing a nice dog of the joy in her work.

Evan


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Sorry you have to endure all of the cynicism Evan. 

So Evan hasn't done what is needed to earn some of your respect?

My question is, what do all of the cynics find wrong with Evan's methods? 

I know a highly respected and published trainer, used by a fair number of people on this forum, who has seldom run or campaigned a dog. If this and other Pros/trainers are getting the desired results and their methods are sound, who are we to criticize because you have not experienced first hand what they are doing? Can we say "Arm chair quarterback"? 

Shouldn't we be criticizing the Pros whose dogs I see when judging come to the line and are so afraid of getting stick whipped or making a mistake ...... Yet people send their dogs to them. 

Or shouldn't we be criticizing judges who had their dogs trained by a pro and now have a MH dog and really have no clue of dog training progression yet are out their judging the dog you are working so hard at to get that title? 

Because you are a good worker and good at what you do, does not mean you will be a good manager.

Teachers go to school and learn to teach. Does anyone here think that they all have experience in the particular topic they are teaching today? But they have taken the time to find out about the subject. Yet we are trusting them to teach our children and don't question if they have first hand experience in that area. 

I think before anyone else says anything negative, why don't you really find something wrong with what he is saying. Heck there are things that other respected video producers say that I don't find to necessarily work well for my dog. Yet I and others are not bashing them for ....whatever particular thing we don't agree with.


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## shawn (Dec 17, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> 2:20 in the vid. nice steady to flush!
> 
> 
> .


Ken I have to agree with you and the shot looked a little scary !!


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## shawn (Dec 17, 2011)

Sorry I didn't see there was seven pages before I made my comment.


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I would be more interested in a DVD from someone who has run hunt tests and gone to the master national.


Evan has given more sound non profit advice than any one out there. Mabey his name is not the biggest for you but as he has stated he has coached handler and helped with dogs at the master level. AKC IS NOT THE ONLY RESORCE OUT THERE. Mabey i will start searching your records.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I would be more interested in a DVD from someone who has run hunt tests and gone to the master national.


Easy solution. Don't buy it. 

Then you will not have to worry about watching a video from someone who does not meet your experience credentials....


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Pixiebee, I was correlating the difference between a dog that breaks and desire.Whether it's a meat dog, hunt test dog ,or FT dog it makes no difference if the dog doesn't enjoy it's job.I have no problem with thinking outside the box and getting something salvagable out of a messed up dog.You can't put go into a dog.It has to be there first and breaking and "go" are not necessarily the same thing.

Best regards,

Jeff

PS Thank you Evan for advice two years ago which helped immensely.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Evan said:


> Good point, Ken. And it relates to what Mary Lynn wrote. It is something that usually takes a trainer lots of time, and several dogs – sometimes many dogs – to come to grips with. A lesson we all have to learn is that there are very few absolutes in dog training, if any. In the end we learn to balance and prioritize. That’s the case here.
> 
> I have had to decide on a better course for a given dog based on what I determined to be its greatest needs. I’ve sometimes made that choice, knowing that it may create a problem I’ll have to fix later. That’s based on what matters most. One thing I’ve had to reconcile myself to is the fact that no matter how much good information I give people, I cannot reach inside them and infuse them with experience. I believe this is a lesson that only experience can teach, much like learning to read dogs accurately.It depends on how you teach it. Many lessons must be taught by casting them in a practical light, complete with cautions. Each drill or procedure I teach is presented with a stated scope and purpose. Along with that are any cautions connected with doing it. If I believe there is a secondary risk in suggesting a procedure, I point it out, and offer appropriate caution. That’s all anyone can do in a single medium. That’s one of the best arguments in behalf of getting both books and videos. If anyone asked me about what Lardy materials they should consider getting, I uniformly recommend all of them; articles and all. Each medium has its own strengths and inherent weaknesses.I, for one, am not offended at an honest inquiry. I understand your thinking, and it relates to Ken’s points also. I’ll get to the core issue in a moment. However, I do want to mention that this brief scene is just that; a brief scene, and is not a lesson in “How to style up a bugged dog 101”. We just decided to load up with poppers and let her get excited about flushing and chasing a bird. We had her do that on about 6 birds that day, sitting her to flush as we went. We didn’t just want to wade into that with her because she was still a bit fragile at that point. It worked out nicely, and she has good expectations during quarter & flush as a result. Absolutely nothing wrong with your question. I appreciate it.Not a bit. She’s just chasing the bird. I was on the right, Pat (her owner) was on the left, just off camera.I think there is merit in that approach. This is just one of those decision points where we chose an unconventional approach for this dog, based on what we know of her. The lesson on video really had very little to do with all of this, but you have each made good points.Again, I appreciate questions. They provide opportunities to at least explain what may not be clear on the surface.Thank you.Good point. I have had to weigh carefully my approach to this. I have quite a bit of video stored from AKC, HRC, and NAHRA events I’ve attended. I’m not going to laud one over another, of course. But I will point out the various differences that handlers will need to know to abide by the rules, and to handle their dogs appropriately in each. While doing that I’ll be able to provide information about what to expect. Everybody was new once.
> 
> Evan


Thanks Evan!!!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Anytime, Mary Lynn! Thanks for your input. This has turned out to be a good opportunity for many newer trainers to ponder important points, I think.

Evan


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Evan said:


> Anytime, Mary Lynn! Thanks for your input. This has turned out to be a good opportunity for many newer trainers to ponder important points, I think.
> 
> Evan


 
Well, I know I'm reading every word


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

road kill said:


> Mr Ken,
> Let's say your dog was at a trainer who was a tad heavy handed with the dog and it shut down.
> 
> What would *YOU* do to perk the drive and desire back up?
> ...


Not Mr Ken but I know how I handle it. Don't put the dog in situiations where pressure is needed for awhile and lots of live flyers and some clipped winged birds to chase down.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's a personal, anecdotal training "tale". I really "screwed" Kooly the puppy into the ground. He didn't handle pressure very well.....and I made it worse. He was the first pup that I had ever thought about washing out. We'd somehow managed to "kind of" finish swim-by. Simply described his training had progressed "to the last straw". 

However, it was almost hunting season and I was a member of a hunt club. Kooly had *never* been hunting in the uplands, but I had them "plant" four pheasants in a tall, endless soghum field. *The "rule" was "there weren't going to be any rules".* The short of it was, "Who is this wildly excited bird finding fool of a dog and where did he come from?" I guess what Kooly was saying was, "See, I kept telling you it was your fault, but you weren't listening." 

Whatever it takes.....do what the dog needs......in the moment. 

In another vein, it kind of gets "tiresome" when I first read the names of certain posters in "some threads" and know *exactly* which way their posts are headed.


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## David Poffinbarger (May 22, 2009)

According to Websters...

Definition of PROFESSIONAL
1
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3
: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot> 

I would call Evan a Pro Trainer that has helped out many amateur trainers through multiple venues...although you may not agree with Evan or his methods he should be treated in a courteous and respectful manner...just as he attempts to treat others on this and other sites.

_"If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all. " Thumper 1942_


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

mossduck said:


> According to Websters...
> 
> Definition of PROFESSIONAL
> 1
> ...


There is a difference between a professional retriever trainer, or "Pro" and an Amateur, at least in regards to field venues. There's nothing insulting being inferred that he is not a pro, Evan himself has made it clear many times on this forum he is not a pro dog trainer, he does not train dogs for other people. That is what is meant by a pro when it comes to retriever field venues, it makes a difference if you want to run Amateur stakes. When someone says things like Evan is the only pro answering questions, etc, well, there's a reason many pros aren't online answering questions on a regular basis. They have trucks full of dogs with owners who pay them to train them.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Not tryin to stir the pot but can I ask how many dogs Rex ran at hunt test or trials and does Lardy or some of the other well rspected trainers run any dogs anymore? Just curious.
Kinda of new at all this.
Thanks, Brad


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## David Poffinbarger (May 22, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> There is a difference between a professional retriever trainer, or "Pro" and an Amateur, at least in regards to field venues. There's nothing insulting being inferred that he is not a pro, Evan himself has made it clear many times on this forum he is not a pro dog trainer, he does not train dogs for other people. That is what is meant by a pro when it comes to retriever field venues, it makes a difference if you want to run Amateur stakes. When someone says things like Evan is the only pro answering questions, etc, well, there's a reason many pros aren't online answering questions on a regular basis. They have trucks full of dogs with owners who pay them to train them.


I understand your point and I agree that you're right in the instance you mention. I am not a field trial-er just a back yard hunt tester/trainer and avid hunter. The difference between myself (Amateur) and Even(Professional) is in his expertise, experience, focus, etc... He may not train other peoples dogs but his main focus is on educating other peoples dogs through training their owners/handlers. He dedicates a good portion of his life to other trainers and their dogs whereas I and most amateurs concentrate on our dogs.

Anyway that isn't my main point...my main point wasn't really directed at you(although I didn't make that very clear and apologize if I caused any offense) it was at the many people that we see on many forums of all types who like to try to prop themselves up by ripping others down. They should try treating people with respect(although by now they've already quit reading this)... 

Evan, keep up the good work and posts. I hope you never let the "negative" people get to you. For every one of "those" folks you'll find many here who respect you and your opinions, including those like myself and many of the other "lurkers" who mostly don't say much but listen and learn from you and the other valuable contributors on RTF.


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

CanAmMan said:


> That is because most pros are too busy outside actually training dogs to have time to post much.


But they have time to set up sponsership to sell there product on the rtf


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

starjack said:


> But they have time to set up sponsership to sell there product on the rtf


That would take one phone call in the evening to talk to ADMIN and one email to send a banner.

Oh and a trip to the mailbox to send a check.

Not that time consuming


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

Member list 1.15 post per day is not time consuming


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

I've read Evan's posts and never commented until now. He is a "Pro". He's a professor who can show other people how to train their dogs. Since we all don't have the cash to send our dogs to a dog trainer and a lot of us get our satisfaction in doing it ourselves, I'm grateful that there is someone who can teach us and make himself available on this forum to answer our questions. I've seen all of the other DVDs (Lardy, Stawski, Farmer, Voight, Rorem) and I've been a proponent of Stawski since that is how I trained my one and only dog. I've only seen Evan's stuff on Youtube but after all of the comments on this thread I've ordered his water force and swim-by and transitions DVDs.

I did a great job with swimby in the Fall of 2010 and then thought the dog could pick up where he left off in the Spring of 2011. He couldn't and I was heavy fingered on the e-collar to the point that he wouldn't go in the water on a blind (he was OK on a mark but not the ball of fire he is on land). Rather than push him I just let him play in water with no rules for about three weeks. He regained his confidence and we are proceeding nicely. Would the "pro" trainers have done what I did? Or would they have made it worse? Luckily I was smart enough to recognize what I did wrong and regroup.

I watched the video clip on post #1 and I don't see what all the fuss is about. The gunners were using blanks so the dog wasn't in any danger. I thought it was a great way to rebuild the dog's excitement. You can fix any breaking issues later, IF they occur. When my dog was a pup he would jump on people. I finally corrected it by teaching him "UP" to jump on me when I wanted him to, then "OFF" when he jumped on me uninvited. He learned what "OFF" meant only when he knew what "UP" meant. Until then he had no idea what "OFF" meant because there was no opposite command. I think the same concept can apply in the potential breaking situation shown in this video (although no one knows if the dog will be more apt to break after this excitement building exercise). I think dogs are a lot smarter than we give them credit for, and they know what to do and what is expected of them in various situations, e.g. field trials, hunt tests, obedience trials.


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## John Daniels (Jan 1, 2012)

Brad said:


> Not tryin to stir the pot but can I ask how many dogs Rex ran at hunt test or trials and does Lardy or some of the other well rspected trainers run any dogs anymore? Just curious.
> Kinda of new at all this.
> Thanks, Brad


http://totalretriever.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85&Itemid=79


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

CanAmMan said:


> That is because most pros are too busy outside actually training dogs to have time to post much.


canam,
i have been made aware that there are trial pros that are active readers on rtf, but not active posters. a pro i was training with one day said something to the effect of, "that melanie foster really told you how it was the other day john!" 

a couple of months later another commented, "saw where you repeat marks at home, ha ha ha!"

just 'cause they aint posting don't mean they aint around. how else would they keep tabs on how dumb us clients are?;-)


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> ....... This has turned out to be a good opportunity for many newer trainers to ponder important points, I think.
> 
> Evan


 
I think so as well
Good Job War Hammer!
You started a good one.


.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

road kill said:


> Mr Ken,
> Let's say your dog was at a trainer who was a tad heavy handed with the dog and it shut down.
> 
> What would *YOU* do to perk the drive and desire back up?
> ...


Well Stan.
a good example is Scooby Do the freak show trying in vain to nose the pup out from under my feet so he can lay under the computer table. Loco the pup weighs 'bout 80 lbs. It ain't going to well for him.
When I got him he did not like birds at all and would rather lay on his back and pee on himself that do a marked retrieve.
He had been E-collar conditioned. He has not a confidant dog. He was a worrier always afraid he was going to do something wrong and get corrected for it.
I started with live pigeons on the lawn. Shackled.
Moved on to ducks.
Moved on to live ducks on water with other dogs chasing them.
Moved on to Scooby Do in the water chasing them.
Moved on to live birds being shot by folk for him to retrieve.
Ended up being able to get 1 junior level pass on him. His one and only entry. 
Still has fun training, a great set up dog.
A photo from that day. A Chesapeake that had spent 6 years in a breeding program now free to chase and retrieve birds
Important note, I weigh about 80 lbs less now.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

roseberry said:


> canam,
> i have been made aware that there are trial pros that are active readers on rtf, but not active posters. a pro i was training with one day said something to the effect of, "that melanie foster really told you how it was the other day john!"


<gulp> :shock:


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

It was nice viewing the clip ... recognizing the some of the grounds and kennel where it was shot ... remember the day Evan was filming by the pond as the final touches were being put to the finished water test ... wish everone that was there was still here ... Looks like it will be another well produced informative multimedia thought provoking video ... often think of the Smartwork program as Retriever training for dummies a guide for the rest of us type of experience ... oh yeah and this dialog reminds me of the sign in the IT Guy's cube ...*"I Can explain it to you ... but I cannot understand it for you"* enjoy your weekend, give your furry/hairy friends some feahters this weekend...Peace


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Loco the pup weighs 'bout 80 lbs





> note, I weigh about 80 lbs less now.


You lost one whole Chesapeake.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Well Stan.
> a good example is Scooby Do the freak show trying in vain to nose the pup out from under my feet so he can lay under the computer table. Loco the pup weighs 'bout 80 lbs. It ain't going to well for him.
> When I got him he did not like birds at all and would rather lay on his back and pee on himself that do a marked retrieve.
> He had been E-collar conditioned. He has not a confidant dog. He was a worrier always afraid he was going to do something wrong and get corrected for it.
> ...


You just sort of gave him a little more freedom than you normally would to let him gain some confidence back??


I think I understand.............


*RK*


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

road kill said:


> You just sort of gave him a little more freedom than you normally would to let him gain some confidence back??
> 
> 
> I think I understand.............
> ...


He took away the pressure. Pretty similar to what I did with my Kirby when I got him at 2 years old...... Gotta make it fun....... who said retrieving was supposed to be drugery?


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## Deleted On Request (Jan 28, 2011)

KwickLabs said:


> Here's a personal, anecdotal training "tale". I really "screwed" Kooly the puppy into the ground. He didn't handle pressure very well.....and I made it worse. He was the first pup that I had ever thought about washing out. We'd somehow managed to "kind of" finish swim-by. Simply described his training had progressed "to the last straw".
> 
> However, it was almost hunting season and I was a member of a hunt club. Kooly had *never* been hunting in the uplands, but I had them "plant" four pheasants in a tall, endless soghum field. *The "rule" was "there weren't going to be any rules".* The short of it was, "Who is this wildly excited bird finding fool of a dog and where did he come from?" I guess what Kooly was saying was, "See, I kept telling you it was your fault, but you weren't listening."
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more with your last sentence, Jim. If all you are going to do is make personal attacks, don't even open the thread. Those who do it, certainly don't make themselves look any better to the rest of us.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> He took away the pressure. Pretty similar to what I did with my Kirby when I got him at 2 years old...... *Gotta make it fun....... who said retrieving was supposed to be drugery?*


That is so spot-on! We have to keep the best interests of our dogs at the forefront of our efforts. If a dog is so driven, stylish, and hard charging that control is an issue, they don't need to have constraints lifted. They need constant high standards of discipline. But if one is down and worried, we need to be willing to let up on the control a bit, and let them regain joy in their work. Excellent point!

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> I think so as well
> Good Job War Hammer!
> You started a good one.
> 
> ...


Ken,

I think it's pretty clear that this has become the good thread it is because of input from you and Mary Lynn. You've provided dialogue instead of just argument, and that's good for everyone. Thanks!

Evan


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Some comments as a result of reading this thread

1) I'm glad that I have an open mind and have accepted advice from several people here on RTF. I accept their advice based upon what I consider their insight, not the number of titled dogs they run.

2) I thought a pro was anyone who got paid for their services. That makes Evan a pro. You want to qualify that, go ahead.

3) There is more than one path to the top of the mountain. If you don't like the path Evan has shown, take another one that you prefer. I'm sure that Evan doesn't want to ruin the dog in that DVD.

4) Am I that outdated? I believe that sometimes you have to create a problem in order to solve another problem. There is skill in deciding how to do that.

5) You don't like Evan's description for the DVD? What did you want him to say, "This has been done before" or "My DVD is nothing Special"? The man is in business and he is offering a product for sale.

5) Re pointing dogs: I have been to 3 NAVHDA events, had a hand in training 2 pointing dogs. I only met one person who felt that strict obedience in a pointing dog was more important than nurturing the drive and desire to locate birds. Obedience could be handled later on.

6) I believe that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Good luck with your DVD Evan!


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

A pro for the purposes of Field trials, is someone who trains, or handles someone elses dog for hunting/field trials, or hunt tests and gets paid or expects to get paid, by the owner, to do it. Simple.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> 2) I thought a pro was anyone who got paid for their services. That makes Evan a pro. You want to qualify that, go ahead.


Thanks for your post. I think it's interesting to see the contrasts in views about what it means to be a pro. We all get paid for doing something, don't we? That makes us pros at whatever that is. But it does not make us pros at dog training. When we're paid to train or handle dogs, we're pros in the dog training/handling sense, and that's the context in this discussion.

I haven't trained or handled as a pro since about 1992. I just want to make it clear that I don't regard myself as a pro in the common vernacular. I'm only a "pro" as an instructor at this point in life.


gdgnyc said:


> 6) I believe that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Good luck with your DVD Evan!


Thanks again!

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I would point out that if you have a dog with "ghosts" that you have to work with, he's probably not ready for HT's or FT's. Go train the dog. Get him ready. Then run him. 

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

sunnydee said:


> I agree with Nancy, I’m sure Evan Graham is a fine trainer but I have never found any evidence that he has ever run a hunt test or a field trial. As far as the youtube video goes the white coats and distance tells me some of these people are training for field trials not hunt tests. For those of us that has run both there is a hugh difference.


Did you find answers to any of your questions? Do you have other questions?

Evan


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

here you go


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> here you go


OMG :lol::lol::lol:


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> here you go


No links No substance No nothing JUST consider the source


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Did you find answers to any of your questions? Do you have other questions?
> 
> Evan


Dude, you're killing me....

/Paul


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

starjack said:


> No links No substance No nothing JUST consider the source


Starjack, starjack, go away, come again some other day.

Consider The Refuge Forum. It's super hot. Oh and I think Evan is there sometimes? I dunno.


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Starjack, starjack, go away, come again some other day.
> 
> Consider The Refuge Forum. It's super hot. Oh and I think Evan is there sometimes? I dunno.


Still can not find your program to follow. So yes i will follow a proven program that a lot of rtfers follow with success. Now would you please go away.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

starjack said:


> Still can not find your program to follow. So yes i will follow a proven program that a lot of rtfers follow with success. Now would you please go away.



Whose program indeed....

I just created a tire out of rubber....

/Paul


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

> Now would you please go away.


Now that's funny right there.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> Now that's funny right there.


Ain't now way the Felanie's going away!


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Now that's funny right there.


Spin.................


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

starjack said:


> Spin.................



Damn wish you lived closer. You're the perfect client...

/Paul


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Wow I've created a whopping 3 Topics since joining THIS month and 2 of them have 100+ replies each.

I'm learning that's for sure







...not sure how much Retriever knowledge though


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

War Hammer said:


> Wow I've created a whopping 3 Topics since joining THIS month and 2 of them have 100+ replies each.
> 
> I'm learning that's for sure
> 
> ...


All that success and to boot you got the emoticon deal down to a science.

BTW your avatar looks like your pup is doing well and that is a good thing.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

duk4me said:


> BTW your avatar looks like your pup is doing well and that is a good thing.


 
Yea he's doing great. Runs hard for the fun bumpers and I have to cut him short or he'd keep going. The other night I flung one too high on accident and he lost sight of it. He still headed out to where the last ones had landed. Not seeing it his nose went to the gorund tail up. He passed it up on the way out then on his way back toward me he spotted it in a puddle. He nailed it hard held it high and b-lined back to me and actually crashed into me tail wagging and fairly impressed with himself I think lol

Yea I know he's young/next week could be a nightmare/etc/etc but that was very encouraging for an 8.5 week old and a perfect time to end that little session. 

I'm using 4" fuzzy paint rollers with Dove scent and that Winged bumper with duck scent on it. he handles both the same. Although he seems to hang on to the roller a bit longer.

He doesn't respond to my loud cupped clapping while eating and I sit him and release him by name to his food. Too cold still for water intro.

Well I guess that's enough of that, not that I can't hi-jack my own thread 

Thanks for noticing though


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

War Hammer said:


> Wow I've created a whopping 3 Topics since joining THIS month and 2 of them have 100+ replies each.
> 
> I'm learning that's for sure
> 
> ...



All downhill from here! Enjoy your limelight, Once you get a little knowledge, you will be toast.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Dude, you're killing me....
> 
> /Paul


I don't get it ? Care to elaborate ?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

43x said:


> I don't get it ? Care to elaborate ?


Is your name Evan?

/Paul


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

I dont know Evan, will never know Evan, will never buy on of his videos, Im not sticking up for Evan, I will however stick up for man kind, what possesses this type of attitude and criticism? You guys and gals are unbelievable!!!!!! If you dont like it dont buy it but leave the man alone!!!!!!!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

jeff evans said:


> I dont know Evan, will never know Evan, will never buy on of his videos, Im not sticking up for Evan, I will however stick up for man kind, what possesses this type of attitude and criticism? You guys and gals are unbelievable!!!!!! If you dont like it dont buy it but leave the man alone!!!!!!!


Quit being mean to me.

I have a reply on this but for 19.95 you can buy the youtube video from me so you get a clearer picture of what I really feel....

/Paul


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

This thread is full of the dumbass.

Good day.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

This thread is locked - it has run it's course and it is obvious posters can not behave themselves!

FOM
RTF Moderator


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