# Question about fox red



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

I know they're registered as yellow labs. My question is an honest one, but I'm asking for opinions. I realize this might open a can of worms, but I'll give it a shot. 

I just spent the last 30 minutes looking online at different "Fox Red Lab" sites (keep in my I'm a crappy googler) and to me, many of those sigtes don't seem that different than a silver lab site. It appears that many breeders are breeding just for color, with little regard to health clearances, (if they have any regard for them at all). 

I know that there are several on here who own the red colored labs. I'm trying to word this without ticking people off. It's obvious that many breeders are just breeding for the pretty red color. Do you think this is going to be like the silver fad? I saw one website that said that fox red and silver were the two rarest colors of labs and there was lot of controversy with both. (duh). I guess I'm just wondering if the fox reds are going to become like chocolates were for a while, where people were breeding them just for color and giving chocolates a bad rep (you know, the crazy, hyper, unhealthy color).

Also, another legitimate question, just because I want to know more. Since it's a shade of yellow, is it possible to have a variety of yellow shades, including the red, in a litter? Do one of the parents have to be darker for the red to come out? 

The thread about yellowxchocolate and the pictures posted in there got my mind going, and then I did some googling and came across the websites that were less than stellar so I had to ask. Trying to get smarter here, (maybe I'm looking in the wrong place)


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Fowl Play WA said:


> I know they're registered as yellow labs. My question is an honest one, but I'm asking for opinions. I realize this might open a can of worms, but I'll give it a shot.
> 
> I just spent the last 30 minutes looking online at different "Fox Red Lab" sites (keep in my I'm a crappy googler) and to me, many of those sigtes don't seem that different than a silver lab site. It appears that many breeders are breeding just for color, with little regard to health clearances, (if they have any regard for them at all).
> 
> ...


Not all yellow labs have the ability to throw a fox red puppy. Yes, you can have variations of yellow in a litter.... and if they look a little dark as a puppy, many times they darken as they get older.. My lighter yellow female throws red. I was surprised. 

Honor will also throw a red, but I was not surprised because of his pedigree. 

Personally, I think that anytime you just breed solely for color you are asking for problems. I don't think fox red is a fad like silver ..... it's been around too long.

My Kirby almost got sold to a fox red puppy mill at the time I bought him... he is a littermate to my Honor, and I didn't want his pedigree bastardized. (sorry if this word offends anyone). Kirby wasn't sure at first that i did him a favor....


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## Dale (Dec 21, 2003)

WHAT DO MEAN WE ARE JUST BREEDING FOR COLOR???


Oh wait your not talking about some of us. 

You are right there are some breeders that there only concern is what color will make the most money and how do I market something less the perfect to get people suckered in to buying. Read the AKC standard for yellow " ranging from Cream to a fox red". Silver isn't mention in any standard for labs but is considered a phase of chocolate in some circles. I personally don't breed for color I breed to get the dog that I would want for myself and to better the breed. 

Hope this helps regards.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Often, if they advertise and specialize in one color, they will pass on the difficult things. If I read my lab history correctly, the red was the preferred color long ago in the show ring. The color went out of favor in that area. They do occur in litters with light yellows. The modifying genes I don't think have all been mapped yet or understood. Others can and probably will give use the straight stuff on that. There are good litters and breeders who like the color and work for it but not by sacrificing the dog. You just have to watch for the usual, clearances, titles, etc. They will also have a variety of colors behind them, bred for traits, not just color.

I should add, this is a color recognized by AKC, silver is not.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

You answered a question I was going to ask. I was wondering how long they've been around. Genetics is really fascinating to me, but I don't have the strongest science brain and have to ask a lot of questions. 

I know they're all considered yellow, but at what point of shading do actually call it fox red? I suppose that's all relative. Does the fox red color have to have a chocolate in the mix at some point? Again, my understanding of genetics is so minute that I probably have to ask questions that have been asked before.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

gsc said:


> I should add, this is a color recognized by AKC, silver is not.


I want to say that I do understand this completely. No worries there. Silver is not a labrador color!


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Fowl Play WA said:


> You answered a question I was going to ask. I was wondering how long they've been around. Genetics is really fascinating to me, but I don't have the strongest science brain and have to ask a lot of questions.
> 
> I know they're all considered yellow, but at what point of shading do actually call it fox red? I suppose that's all relative. Does the fox red color have to have a chocolate in the mix at some point? Again, my understanding of genetics is so minute that I probably have to ask questions that have been asked before.


A fox red is genetically ee. The Bb, BB, bb is not a factor in the red color, that another locus. The chololate can influence the nose, lip and around the eye skin color, not the red. As far as shading, there is obviously a transition between red and plain yellow, I don't know where that is.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Fowl Play WA said:


> but at what point of shading do actually call it fox red?


That question is pretty subjective. I've known people to call their dogs red when they are really yellow with some red in their coat..... or what we know in humans as strawberry blonde. I think the true fox red is solid, like my boy Kirby....


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## Northern Lights Kennels (May 9, 2006)

Hi Guys,
While I am relatively new at these games, I believe the AKC does NOT set the standard for the breed, the breed club does. The AKC just follows what the breed club sets out. In the Labradors case It is the Labrador Retriever Club Inc. that recognizes the colors BLACK, YeLLOW, and CHOCOLATE as the ONLY acceptable colors for Labradors;-)


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Northern Lights Kennels said:


> Hi Guys,
> While I am relatively new at these games, I believe the AKC does NOT set the standard for the breed, the breed club does. The AKC just follows what the breed club sets out. In the Labradors case It is the Labrador Retriever Club Inc. that recognizes the colors BLACK, YeLLOW, and CHOCOLATE as the ONLY acceptable colors for Labradors;-)


Yes, but if you read the standard, they recognize fox red as a varient of yellow, which it is.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

gsc said:


> A fox red is genetically ee. The Bb, BB, bb is not a factor in the red color, that another locus. The chololate can influence the nose, lip and around the eye skin color, not the red. As far as shading, there is obviously a transition between red and plain yellow, I don't know where that is.


Okay, so chocolate influences (or can influence) the pigment, but not the coat. Gotcha. 

Kirby is beautiful, Susan. I love his build.

Why do people call it fox red, if it's really a yellow? 

I guess the reason I thought it was becoming a fad is that I've noticed people recently asking specifically for a fox red, and on a local hunting forum, someone waited 4 years for a fox red from a breeder. Maybe it's my critical mind working, but that's just my observation.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

30 years ago a friend of mine had a light yellow lab and later bought her sister from the breeder who was fox red plus she had longer hair. She started to doubt that the dog was a full sister so we bred her to my chocolate and of course got all blacks. In turn the black female passed yellow and chocolate. That was the first fox red Lab I saw. They definitely are in demand now and that's why you see fox red websites, but often yellow litters have different shades of yellow if you are breeding for performance and not color.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

They call it fox red for the same reason we call them chocolates. They are really liver, but cholocate sounds more like something I would like to have. 

Don't eat liver regards.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

gsc said:


> They call it fox red for the same reason we call them chocolates. They are really liver, but cholocate sounds more like something I would like to have.
> 
> Don't eat liver regards.


Red as opposed to what? Chocolate does sound much more appealing than liver.


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

A few years ago I seen an ad for a very well bred litter, from a respectable breeder, that was an all yellow litter. They had Snow whites listed for $1000, Fox reds listed for $750, and just plain ol' yellows listed for $400 or $500. Crap like that just makes me furious!!! Ok, I'm done venting now.

Tom


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

labman52738 said:


> A few years ago I seen an ad for a very well bred litter, from a respectable breeder, that was an all yellow litter. They had Snow whites listed for $1000, Fox reds listed for $750, and just plain ol' yellows listed for $400 or $500. Crap like that just makes me furious!!! Ok, I'm done venting now.
> 
> Tom


That's really funny considering they're all registered as yellow. It's stuff like this that made me think of the color as a fad. Obviously it's been around a long time, but we're in the era of designer dogs, so anything pinned as "rare" is now an easy way to make a quick buck.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Red as opposed to what? Chocolate does sound much more appealing than liver.


I am guessing it is the addition of "fox" to the red. So it is fox red as opposed to just plain red.

Now for chocolate, maybe we need red chocolate (also known as red velvet for you cake lovers), milk chocolate, semi sweet chocolate.??? Yes, this is an attempt at humor.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

My old girl's dad was fox red. very handsome fella-not a darkish chocolate colored red,just deep reddish color.
She (is black) produced a fox red in her first litter when bred to a black dog. I saw a fox on my property one day,and said,wow," he is the same color as "two toes"(that red pup) and thats how (LAMELY) it dawned on my why they called it fox red....
Billie's grandaughter, Mickie(also black) has been bred three times and two of those times had a fox red puppy. I kept the red girl from the last litter- but by no means would I ever breed for that color. The sire is a dark yellow but not really red.
Sure, there are people capitolizing on the certain colors, if you breed for color solely, or any other one trait, the other traits and characteristics are going to suffer along the way. 
Whether it be ONE type of look,color,or performance trait.


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## Certainty (Apr 17, 2008)

Yellow and red are both on the warm end of the color spectrum and the fox reds look.....well, reddish. Since yellows also come in cream, bordering white, it isn't a stretch to call the fox reds yellow, on the dark side. There is quite a color variation in yellow Labs that is lacking in blacks and chocolates.

Breeders who try to pass off fox reds as rare and charge more money really piss me off. Regardless of the different shades in your yellow litter, it should be about performance and pedigree of the dam and sire, as well as their forebares.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Why do people call it fox red, if it's really a yellow?


I think they are just being descriptive. Also, owners of such dogs are sometimes quite fond of the look, so they probably embrace the term.

My dog has a half sister who is fox red. My friend that owns her has had people (strangers) pull up in his yard and ask if he plans to breed her because they have a fox red male (yes, that would be breeding just for color, but he hasn't done it yet and she is over 5 years old already).


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## Cresthill (Apr 19, 2005)

Pictures of Susan Bledsoe's Honor's daughter out of one of my recent litters.... she is also a niece to Kirby.

http://www.cresthillkennels.com/Our Girls/cresthillScarlett.html 

She is just into FF so isn't too happy in the most recent two pictures.
________
Suzuki kt120


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

All it took was one time several years ago advertising some pups as fox red...NEVER AGAIN!!! Just the term "fox red" brought the weirdos out of the woodwork.
I advertise my all my yellow pups as "yellow". I emphasize their working ability, health and temperament. 

My Noodle girl is my heart dog and some day, I will have another girl who looks and hopefully acts just like her.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

In my quest to find a suitable male to match with Meg I had a few people tell me I need to find another "fox red" to breed to her as that was what the "market" would support.

Ummm I am looking for a talented boy that has good health, a brain, and trainablity, if he is yellow that will be something for me to think about, black carring yellow for sure some thing to think about, but the first line for his resume better be he is healthy, smart and trainable, color is down on the list. 

Sherry I agree, donn't put it out there that they are fox reds.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I'll bite the bullet, since it's early and I'm not caffeinated yet. I have all three colors, my yellows have fox reds, which was a surprise. Fox red has been a "demand" shade for a long time. I charge more for it if that's what people specifically want, but I still SCREEN the homes the same, they are still going hunting at minimum, I do the hips/elbows/eyes, CNM and EIC on every one of my dogs, train my dogs, hunt my dogs, run HT with my dogs, breed to MH or FC with proper clearances. Last year, I spent over $35,000 on entry fees, vet bills, pro trainer, food, etc. I'd be a freakin' idiot not to get more from a shade people are willing to pay more for, it's just a drop in the bucket compared to what I spend. Since fox red is part of the AKC spectrum for yellow and that's what it looks like, that's what I call it. I could go all out and just do fox reds and currently bring in far more than my current FC AFC x MH with a stellar pedigree, but I haven't crossed that line. I got at most $900 for the pups from this litter but it's a breeding I wanted and the yellow I'm keeping is regular old yellow. My last litter, MH/QAA x JH, $1500 for that red pup that was in the photo the OP mentioned. His family is extremely nice, it is the son's first hunting dog, he is working with a trainer, pup lives in the house. Come to think of it, I am an idiot for not going red and quit doing all the other stuff, but the ones getting fox reds from me also want the other bells and whistles, not just the color, same as ones who want a chocolate or a black, they could get cheaper out of the paper. Nor will I buy a red just for red, it's got to have everything and it amazes me how when I call on a dog just posted, it is already gone, no questions asked about clearances, nothing. But yes, there are a great many who are doing it solely for the color because one can get far more for it, sell to people who don't know and care about anything but the color. I know I run the risk of being lumped in with less than scrupulous breeders, so be it. I know what I do and I can live with it. Back to the coffee pot, pups decided 2 a.m. was playtime this morning, there just isn't enough caffeine.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The yuppie calls have been white for awhile, now it's fox red, and that is the term I have always heard used, but yesterday I had a butterscotch call and she was truly amazed that isn't what they are called. I have even had people take pictures and tell me what shade they wanted. Black is so easy and even chocolate you usually don't get shade calls.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> The yuppie calls have been white for awhile, now it's fox red, and that is the term I have always heard used, but yesterday I had a butterscotch call and she was truly amazed that isn't what they are called. I have even had people take pictures and tell me what shade they wanted. Black is so easy and even chocolate you usually don't get shade calls.



Blacks and chocolates are easy, they even have their pigment when born, yellows are just freaky at first til they starting getting their pigment. There are nut job calls in chocolates but yellow, coming in so many shades, begs for them. I saw one site just recently that sold all the pups as fox reds, NO clearances, from a line I know is an EIC carrier, I called to tell her because I couldn't help myself, she claimed total ignorance and disbelief of course, anyway, the photos I saw were pretty yellow Labs, certainly not even dark yellow, but she tells people they don't turn red til 18-24 months and gets $1350 out the door. Yes, there are plenty of freaks out there both buying and selling.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

gsc said:


> I am guessing it is the addition of "fox" to the red. So it is fox red as opposed to just plain red.
> 
> Now for chocolate, maybe we need red chocolate (also known as red velvet for you cake lovers), milk chocolate, semi sweet chocolate.??? Yes, this is an attempt at humor.


I saw a website recently that advertised "raspberry chocolates" which were really just a lighter shade.


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## Sally Berry (Nov 11, 2007)

One website that has a lot of info (3 pages worth!) on fox reds is http://www.littleriverlabs.com/foxred.htm

This is a conformation breeder but there is interest in both show and field lines in the fox red shade of yellow.

Sally


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks Sally. I read that one yesterday.


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

I find the entire color issue interesting. I did hear that a yellow carrying chocolate had a greater chance at producing fox red, but as many have pointed out- you can get all shades within a litter. We just had a litter of chocolates and did not know that our female was yellow factored until pup #4 was born." Some breeders go out of their way to produce "whites" and we get one out of two choco's-go figure! Maybe I should have asked twice as much for the "white chocolate?" ;-)


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

JepDog said:


> I find the entire color issue interesting. I did hear that a yellow carrying chocolate had a greater chance at producing fox red, but as many have pointed out- you can get all shades within a litter. We just had a litter of chocolates and did not know that our female was yellow factored until pup #4 was born." Some breeders go out of their way to produce "whites" and we get one out of two choco's-go figure! Maybe I should have asked twice as much for the "white chocolate?" ;-)


I think you have an imposter there! Cute babies!


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## ricejumper (Jan 15, 2009)

I did choose a fox red b/c of color, however the breeder was not breeding the parents just for color which made it comforting that I was getting a dog b/c of the pedigree rather than its looks. The reason I wanted a fox red is because the color blends well in our hunting conditions. We normally dress our blinds with dead johnson grass or rice stubble which is very similiar in color.
One thing I found out in researching fox red labs is that this is a common color for British labs that are normally a shorter, stockier dog. I believe british labs come in 3 colors: Black, Yellow, and Fox Red. I think they are also known for their passive temperment. So....make sure you are getting a "american" lab(i guess this is what they are called) rather than a Brit, that is unless you want one. 
Take all of this info with a grain of salt though...I am also a googler.
My fox red pup's sire is Money Talks II's "Copper". From what I hear he consistently throws fox reds. I think half of this particular litter was fox reds, and the rest yellows.


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## Fall Flight (Jul 1, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> That question is pretty subjective. I've known people to call their dogs red when they are really yellow with some red in their coat..... or what we know in humans as strawberry blonde. I think the true fox red is solid, like my boy Kirby....


Well all I can say is my dog is not a fox red lab. He does'nt have a yellow hair in his coat. He is red from the top of his head to the end of his tail. May be its a freak of nature but I have always considered myself lucky to have him.

He is a fine hunt test dog and a great hunter in the field. I get a kick at hunt test when judges see him for the first time. He ususally draw a crowd when he runs. Had one lady tell me I had a pretty IRISH SETTER, had another tell me that's the shortest hair GOLDEN she has ever seen

Ran him this morning on long land entry water blinds. The sun was at my back. Stopped him to correct his line. I just paused a second and noticed how the sun made his red coat shine. Then I sent him on.


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## ricejumper (Jan 15, 2009)

Fall Flight, that dog is gorgeous. Who are his parents?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

JepDog said:


> I did hear that a yellow carrying chocolate had a greater chance at producing fox red


Kirby has no chocolate in his pedigree........  I don't think it's a function of chocolate or no chocolate.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> Kirby has no chocolate in his pedigree........  I don't think it's a function of chocolate or no chocolate.


I don't think it's much more red than Kirby either.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Fowl Play WA said:


> I don't think it's much more red than Kirby either.


 
Joni- the interesting part is that his undercoat is definitely yellow.... and that's what I spend my time vacumming up... you just don't see it except one dime size dimple on his shoulder.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> Joni- the interesting part is that his undercoat is definitely yellow.... and that's what I spend my time vacumming up... you just don't see it except one dime size dimple on his shoulder.


Funny. I hear you on the vacuming up thing though. My carpet is a light tan color, but looks more gray than anything. I vacuum a couple times a week. My poor vacuum cleaner.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Also, another legitimate question, just because I want to know more. Since it's a shade of yellow, is it possible to have a variety of yellow shades, including the red, in a litter? Do one of the parents have to be darker for the red to come out?
> )


I think you are right on in your thoughts when breeders focus and advertise on color vs all of the other important attributes (hips, eyes, tempermant, structure, hunting abilities, pedigree) that are much more important than color. Everytime I pick a pup it is based on these other attributes where color and sex are 4th and 5th priority. I happen to own a red and she came out of a yellow and black litter. Its just a variation of the yellow colored labs.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

There can be goofy white markings that come through on yellows. The Labrador historians say it's because the spots are missed on the lighter yellows. I had a "setter" marked yellow and I know she was never out of my sight.


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

Thanks for the pictures folks all beautiful dogs! I love that color. My two are more of the "strawberry blonde" color but that's OK cause so am I! We're a matched set! When I breed my female my first priority is pedigree but I will also consider color of the male.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Hambone said:


> I love that color. My two are more of the "strawberry blonde" color but that's OK cause so am I! We're a matched set!


Do you look like your dogs, Hambone?


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Fall Flight said:


> Well all I can say is my dog is not a fox red lab. He does'nt have a yellow hair in his coat. He is red from the top of his head to the end of his tail. May be its a freak of nature but I have always considered myself lucky to have him.
> 
> He is a fine hunt test dog and a great hunter in the field. I get a kick at hunt test when judges see him for the first time. He ususally draw a crowd when he runs. Had one lady tell me I had a pretty IRISH SETTER, had another tell me that's the shortest hair GOLDEN she has ever seen
> 
> Ran him this morning on long land entry water blinds. The sun was at my back. Stopped him to correct his line. I just paused a second and noticed how the sun made his red coat shine. Then I sent him on.


That is a very handsome boy, what is his pedigree?


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

I am one of the people who wanted reddish pups. But I also wanted a FT sire for my pups and of course health clearances. I had heard good things about FC CAFC Money Talks II, so I contacted Van and made some pups! Like Frontier Labs I had a few weirdo's calling just for a colorful pup, wanting me to guarantee color and all that.. So those people didn't get one....

That red dog in the above pic looks like a shiny red penney...


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

all this talk of strawberry,chocolate and such makes me want to go out and get some ol fashion vanilla ice cream and put some choc., and carmel topping on it. Not much of a strawberry topping gal. Love um in the summer though.;-) Yum.......
Sorry guys I couldn't resist.
Darn snow last night is making me crazy.
Where is Spring??!!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Sue Kiefer said:


> all this talk of strawberry,chocolate and such makes me want to go out and get some ol fashion vanilla ice cream and put some choc., and carmel topping on it. Not much of a strawberry topping gal. Love um in the summer though.;-) Yum.......
> Sorry guys I couldn't resist.
> Darn snow last night is making me crazy.
> Where is Spring??!!


NO kidding, trip to Mpls this a.m. to CERF a litter and pick up my new Grady pup from the airport, holy smokes, solid ice road, 35mph for 20 miles, then dense fog. But, it warmed up beautifully so all is well again. Will have to go the ice cream topping route for flavor though, new Grady pup is just plain ol' yella. Hiss boo on my plan to conquer the world with fox reds.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> I am one of the people who wanted reddish pups.


There is nothing wrong with wanting a certain color as long as it is not the only consideration....
Tim, Mojo is gorgeous!


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> There is nothing wrong with wanting a certain color as long as it is not the only consideration....
> Tim, Mojo is gorgeous!


It only means you need more patience and willing to look farther away sometimes. I've never really been partial to yellow of any variety, but thats personal. I can appreciate their beauty and these pictures have been that and more.

Chocolate regards. (I do own a black, but he has a chocolate heart!)


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

gsc said:


> (I do own a black, but he has a chocolate heart!)


That's funny! I have a chocolate. I tell him that he's the most beautiful shade of black I have ever seen! And, I show him no mirrors!


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## MJT1977 (Jul 20, 2005)

I don't know maybe it is just me, but when I see some dark fox reds they remind me of Golden's and most have a large white spot on there chest like many golden's do. I "think" some breeders who are breeding for this color have crossed in a golden somewhere to get that deep red like a golden. Or a Vizla too for that matter!!! IMHO...

Marty


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

MJT1977 said:


> I don't know maybe it is just me, but when I see some dark fox reds they remind me of Golden's and most have a large white spot on there chest like many golden's do. I "think" some breeders who are breeding for this color have crossed in a golden somewhere to get that deep red like a golden. Or a Vizla too for that matter!!! IMHO...
> 
> Marty


Did you read the links that were given? Red is an acceptable shade of yellow, which means that the LRC believes that it's a natural occurance. Just what are you trying to do?


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

MJT1977 said:


> I don't know maybe it is just me, but when I see some dark fox reds they remind me of Golden's and most have a large white spot on there chest like many golden's do. I "think" some breeders who are breeding for this color have crossed in a golden somewhere to get that deep red like a golden. Or a Vizla too for that matter!!! IMHO...
> 
> Marty


So my fox reds are out of 2004 NAFC Dewey's Drake of Moon River and a Lean Mac grandaughter, another out of FC/AFC Fox Hollow's Little Buddy, another a grand-daughter on FC/AFC Teddy's Ebonstar James. Those darn field trialers crossing goldens with labs. Here I thought they were all lab. All kidding a side, I love the "fox red" shade of yellow. I also prefer the yellow color because of all the different ranges of shades. If you study the lineage on quality fox red there are a few outstanding FC dogs that produced the fox red shading and they are found in almost every pedigree. This shade of fox red "YELLOW" will breed true if bred to each other. If bred to a yellow, the pups will have rich highlights on ears and hocks and often times approximately 1/4 of the litter wil be fox red if one of the parents is fox red and the other has red ears and hocks. It is a shade of yellow and my personal favor.
I train with club members that would not even consider a dog unless it is black but they sure don't get the ribbing us yellow lovers get.


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## MJT1977 (Jul 20, 2005)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Did you read the links that were given? Red is an acceptable shade of yellow, which means that the LRC believes that it's a natural occurance. Just what are you trying to do?


 Bring the lab world crashing down to its feet!!!!!!!!!!! No just kidding..... Actually I was just stating my OPINION! I never said all Fox Red labs, a matter of fact I didn't even say field trial lines... I simply stated my opinion on what I think goes on in the lab market when all that people strive for is to sell puppies of a certain color. Nothing more nothing less. Same as the silver labs....

Marty


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

MJT1977 said:


> Bring the lab world crashing down to its feet!!!!!!!!!!! No just kidding..... Actually I was just stating my OPINION! I never said all Fox Red labs, a matter of fact I didn't even say field trial lines... I simply stated my opinion on what I think goes on in the lab market when all that people strive for is to sell puppies of a certain color. Nothing more nothing less. Same as the silver labs....
> 
> Marty



With the exception that fox red is recognized as a shade of yellow in the standard and has always been around in Labs, while silver has no such documented history, according to the most knowledgeable and credible resources. There would be no need to use another breed to introduce the fox red shade. You actually stated goldens and vizlas as examples of breeds used to bring in the color, that's a bit of a stretch and zero foundation for it, again, unlike silver. As for the white spots, I see white patches on blacks and chocolates. I've seen and have regular old yellows with white on the chest or toes but it isn't as noticeable as they are lighter. White has always popped up on Labs of every shade, it typically however, being a fault, is not desirable. So while you of course are entitled to your opinion, you have nothing to back up it with about where the fox red shade of yellow originated, other than starting yet more uninformed speculation.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

I could be wrong but I believe the white comes from the St. Johns Water dog. I have a nice yellow that is a little on the red side, well she is a lot on the red side, white on her chest and white bolos on her front feet. Most of know where the bolos come from. 
I too have seen white on black and chocolates. It is just in the lines and not from a different breed. 

When I purchased Meg I was looking for a yellow, when I saw her mother I was a little taken back as I had not seen a yellow that red before, she looked the color of a Red Bone Hound. But blended with Nitro we lightened up the red a little, in fact she fell in the middle of the color spectrum of the pups, her brother Rocky was even a little redder then Meg, they were lovely to look at out in the field upland hunting together.


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## Africana (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi all from Africa,
I am a very recent newcomer, and I have joined in on this thread because I am a particular admirer of the fox-red colour in Labs. I am also one of those breeders who believes that the black is the only REAL Labrador, but that doesn't mean I love my yellows any less.
The fox-red colour has totally disappeared from the bloodlines here, so it will be a matter of pure chance if one of my bitches throws a red, but I am eternally hopeful!
As regards the debate around reds and "silvers", I wonder whether any of you have read the article "Bb,Ee and beyond" by Pamela Darvol? I would strongly recommend you do if you haven't yet, www.labbies.com/genetics. Very interesting information there on the reason for the "silver" colour in Labs, and various other aberrations.
I have also read in various other books on colour genetics that a reasonable indication that your yellow bitch carries the gene for red is if she has black whiskers. Can't comment on the accuracy of that claim, none of mine have black whiskers.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Africana said:


> Hi all from Africa,
> I am a very recent newcomer, and I have joined in on this thread because I am a particular admirer of the fox-red colour in Labs. I am also one of those breeders who believes that the black is the only REAL Labrador, but that doesn't mean I love my yellows any less.
> The fox-red colour has totally disappeared from the bloodlines here, so it will be a matter of pure chance if one of my bitches throws a red, but I am eternally hopeful!
> As regards the debate around reds and "silvers", I wonder whether any of you have read the article "Bb,Ee and beyond" by Pamela Darvol? I would strongly recommend you do if you haven't yet, www.labbies.com/genetics. Very interesting information there on the reason for the "silver" colour in Labs, and various other aberrations.
> I have also read in various other books on colour genetics that a reasonable indication that your yellow bitch carries the gene for red is if she has black whiskers. Can't comment on the accuracy of that claim, none of mine have black whiskers.


Welcome to RTF, very cool to have another continent join in the fun. You have a nice website and very lovely Labradors. I look forward to hearing retriever stories from your part of the world.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

The idea of breeding for color is pretty simple IMO. It comes from the fact that breeding for color is understood to increase demand in the absence of performance credentials (field or show). And since the vast majority of the pup market just wants a pet, performance is not as important to the primary market as color.

Since most who post on this forum are performance oriented, color should be a secondary preference at best. Performance breeders should give consideration to color as relates to the conformation std (which includes color, pigment, etc) bu again the primary market, the sale of pets, just wants a cute pup in the color of their choice. Since uniqueness has a place in the primary market (right or wrong), color sells.


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

Granddaddy said:


> The idea of breeding for color is pretty simple IMO. It comes from the fact that breeding for color is understood to increase demand in the absence of performance credentials (field or show). And since the vast majority of the pup market just wants a pet, performance is not as important to the primary market as color.
> 
> Since most who post on this forum are performance oriented, color should be a secondary preference at best. Performance breeders should give consideration to color as relates to the conformation std (which includes color, pigment, etc) bu again the primary market, the sale of pets, just wants a cute pup in the color of their choice. Since uniqueness has a place in the primary market (right or wrong), color sells.


Sorry but I would like to disagree with your opinion. Even people who do performance with their dogs are proud how their dogs look like. So appearance is important to them. They are proud about muscles, shiny coats and so on. And believe me color is just another thing to be proud of.
As you know I own curlies and in a very old book I found an interesting opinion why they are so rare. This guy wrote, that a good looking curly is very impressive looking but it is very difficult to breed a curly with perfect curls and perfect performance. And a Curly without perfect curls just doesn´t look good. He was talking about Hunters in Great Britain and how they set pride in the looks of their dogs.
I think he was right and so I think the look of a dog is important to its owner, even when it is performing.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Many of you know that I have a real fondness for Yellow Labs of the Fox Red shade. I have stayed off this thread as long as I could. 

Our first lab was a fox red:









She possessed many qualities we found appealing in a lab besides her coloring. We didn't know anything about Hunt tests, field trials, or any other type of competition in thedog world when we got her. She just loved to retrieve, was very smart, would never give up until she found whatever it was you picked up and threw for her. She was beautifully built and very sound. Never ill. Only vet bills we had on her besides regular immunizations were for stitching up cuts and checking for broken bones when she'd crash into something on the way to a retrieve. (never did break a bone but did sustain a couple of sprains) We decided to breed her because so many people who got to know her thought she was super and wanted pups from her. She was a terrific mother from the beginning and we have many stories of how great she was in that role.

Anyway, with a black male who was chocolate factored she threw black and chocolate pups. With a lighter yellow, son of M D Houston, she threw all lighter pups, which had the red ears & all got shades of darker yellow on their backs sort of like saddles. By then we realy wanted to get another red dog like her and decided to start looking for that color. 

At that time we discovered it was very hard to find Fox Red Males. We bought a black male puppy whose breeding was field trial and whose mother was red and learned aobut Hunt tests and Field trials from his breeder, M C McGee. Our thinking was, when he gets old enough we can use him as stud to Nugget. But that was never meant to be as we didn't think that the pairing would work out, Nugget was a big boned, large muscular female at 75 - 78 lbs and Lotto was at his heavest 50 lbs. We were worried that even though they were both structurally sound with passed clearances, that there was potential for mismatching of body parts. 

So since we had learned about and started attending hunt tests, we learned about one stud in the area who had made the cover of the Hunt Retriever magazine. He looked just like Nugget! So we made an appointment to meet him on our way to run our younger dogs in an AKC hunt test that weekend.

We watched him do some hand thrown marks without much enthusiasm, trotting to the marks and walking slowly on the return. Then we brought Nugget out to show him and she sat steady as we threw the mark and took off when released like a freight train, not slowing down until she was at the mark and then put both front feet out in front to kick up the bumper and catch it in the air. She returned at the same speed as she went, put it down by Dave's feet, and backed up to get him to throw it again. That is how _she_ taught us that she wanted to retrieve 6 years earlier. The stud owner was quite impressed and started talking about getting some of that desire in his lines. But we left the meeting knowing that wouldn't happen. We didn't want to compromise her talents by taking her to a stud that didn't possess the same qualities even if the color was right. 

That weekend we ran our Junior dogs at the hunt test and like we usually did, went to the Master test to see what we'd have to be working towards. As we approached the gallery there was a big, handsome red dog coming off the line with his handler. and instead of going to the gallery we followed him back to the truck and said, who is that dog and is he breedable? The Pro handler introduced us to his owner at the test. The dog was and HRCH working on his MH and later got his GRHRCH. That union gave us 11 red puppies and started us on our quest for great, healthy dogs that could throw red. 

We kept the only red female from that litter and she became HRCH UH Run-N-Gun's I've Got Rhythm MH Dancer had 3 litters with 3 different sires and each litter had some reds. 

We had also kept a female from Nugget that was an M D Houston grandaughter. In fact she looks spitting image to him. She was very talented and she managed to get her HRCH-MH titles as our first dog often taking us through tests that we had not prepared her for. We bred her to that red GRHRCH Brovic's Rhythm and Blues, MH and that first litter had 12 pups and I believe that 8 of them received hunt test titles and 6 or more got HRCH-MH level. About half of them were Fox red the others were lighter. We repeated that breeding 2 more times. 










This was our group at one point. 
Lighter dog on back row left is HRCH Nugget's Gold Dust, MH, Dusty, next to her is her son, HRCH UH Run-N-Gun's Rhythm and Blues, MH Jive, next to him is a dog we bought, HR St. Pauli's Goose Girl, SH. Katy was too much dog for us and we sold her to a professional trainer.
Red dog in the middle row is HR Run-N-Gun's Eat my Dust, SH. Sassy was litter mate to Jive and now lives in California. Next to her is a full sister HR Run-N-Gun's Hunt'n Honey, SH. Finishing out that row is HRCH Super Kwik Pic, MH, Lotto. Front row left is Nugget and on the right is HRCH UH Run-N-Gun's I've Got Rhythm, MH Dancer.

By the way, Africana, the only dog with black whiskers in our family was the black one, Lotto. So there goes that theory.

We love labs of all shades and colors, we even kept a chocolate pup from Nugget once. It is the intelligence, talent, conformation, and health that we look for first in our breedings and then if we can wrap all that up in a colorful package, why not?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Sissi said:


> Sorry but I would like to disagree with your opinion. Even people who do performance with their dogs are proud how their dogs look like. So appearance is important to them. They are proud about muscles, shiny coats and so on. And believe me color is just another thing to be proud of.
> As you know I own curlies and in a very old book I found an interesting opinion why they are so rare. This guy wrote, that a good looking curly is very impressive looking but it is very difficult to breed a curly with perfect curls and perfect performance. And a Curly without perfect curls just doesn´t look good. He was talking about Hunters in Great Britain and how they set pride in the looks of their dogs.
> I think he was right and so I think the look of a dog is important to its owner, even when it is performing.


Your disagreement seems to have ignored the content of my statement in the context of a field performance website which I have copied below with emphasis added. And you miss the primary point of the statement as well, that being that the primary market (pet market) cares little about performance credentials, thereby elavating color to a primary consideration. And I actually said nothing about the importance of "look" as it is much more than color alone. A discussion of "look" would have many other considerations as detailed by the conformation std. I have copied my previous statement with added emphasis to make clear my opinion of the market as regards color.

_"The idea of breeding for color is pretty simple IMO. It comes from the fact that breeding for color is understood to increase demand in the absence of performance credentials (field or show). And since the vast majority of the pup market just wants a pet, performance is not as important to the primary market as color._

_Since most who post on this forum are performance oriented, color should be a secondary preference at best. *Performance breeders should give consideration to color as relates to the conformation std* (which includes color, pigment, etc) but again the primary market, the sale of pets, just wants a cute pup in the color of their choice. Since uniqueness has a place in the primary market (right or wrong), color sells."_


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Lady Duck Hunter, what a great journey and memories those photos must hold for you, awesome. I think sometimes our first dogs hold us by the heart and we continue to try to keep a part of them with us because we have them for such a short time. We swim against the popular mainstream current to get what is the total package for us, including the color that makes our heart sing. You've got a group to be proud of there.


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## lrlabs (Feb 15, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> With the exception that fox red is recognized as a shade of yellow in the standard and has always been around in Labs, while silver has no such documented history, according to the most knowledgeable and credible resources. There would be no need to use another breed to introduce the fox red shade. You actually stated goldens and vizlas as examples of breeds used to bring in the color, that's a bit of a stretch and zero foundation for it, again, unlike silver. As for the white spots, I see white patches on blacks and chocolates. I've seen and have regular old yellows with white on the chest or toes but it isn't as noticeable as they are lighter. White has always popped up on Labs of every shade, it typically however, being a fault, is not desirable. So while you of course are entitled to your opinion, you have nothing to back up it with about where the fox red shade of yellow originated, other than starting yet more uninformed speculation.


Being somewhat an expert (if there really is one??) on the fox red shade, the presence of white is very easy to explain. First of all the gene pool on this shade is very narrow so the ability to breed away from it is extremly difficult. Second of all, I think many would be surprised to see just how much white is present on a medium to light shade of yellow, it is just harder to see. With a black dog, it is easy to breed around this minor fault.
As far as having another breed mixed in to obtain this shade (like silvers), that is bull, this shade has been around since the very beginning. Look at the pictures of Ben of Hyde, the lighter shades are actually more recent.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks for posting Gregg! Gregg has done alot of research on the history of the fox red shade. It can be found here:
http://www.littleriverlabs.com/foxred.htm


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## MJT1977 (Jul 20, 2005)

From a breeder of Fox Reds here is a pic, you decide......











Its not fat Vizla.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

It looks alot like this lab from the 1920's...


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

Granddaddy said:


> Your disagreement seems to have ignored the content of my statement in the context of a field performance website which I have copied below with emphasis added. And you miss the primary point of the statement as well, that being that the primary market (pet market) cares little about performance credentials, thereby elavating color to a primary consideration. And I actually said nothing about the importance of "look" as it is much more than color alone. A discussion of "look" would have many other considerations as detailed by the conformation std. I have copied my previous statement with added emphasis to make clear my opinion of the market as regards color.
> 
> _"The idea of breeding for color is pretty simple IMO. It comes from the fact that breeding for color is understood to increase demand in the absence of performance credentials (field or show). And since the vast majority of the pup market just wants a pet, performance is not as important to the primary market as color._
> 
> _Since most who post on this forum are performance oriented, color should be a secondary preference at best. *Performance breeders should give consideration to color as relates to the conformation std* (which includes color, pigment, etc) but again the primary market, the sale of pets, just wants a cute pup in the color of their choice. Since uniqueness has a place in the primary market (right or wrong), color sells."_


Hi David
Sorry but I still disagree. Of course parts of your statement are right. For example the part about the primary market for pets.
But as you stated, this board consists only of people working their dogs and I really love to read all these posts, they show a beautiful part of history and also they clearly show that the color is important for these people and I don´t really understand why it shouldn´t. You see your dog every day and why not having an unique looking dog, even when it is working. For my part I love the fox-red color.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

I would be remiss if I didn't mention one of the most gorgeous and talented fox reds I've seen... FC/AFC Susquehanna Drift Netter MH.
I'm hoping Richard will post a pic or send me one to post.
FC/AFC Screamin' Yella Zonker was also a fox red.
See MJT 1977, you can have a talented dog in a pretty red package.


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## MJT1977 (Jul 20, 2005)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> I would be remiss if I didn't mention one of the most gorgeous and talented fox reds I've seen... FC/AFC Susquehanna Drift Netter MH.
> I'm hoping Richard will post a pic or send me one to post.
> FC/AFC Screamin' Yella Zonker was also a fox red.
> See MJT 1977, you can have a talented dog in a pretty red package.



Never once did I say you couldn't have that! I simply stated that some breeders(backyard color) have probably crossed in the color to keep it or make it richer, like a golden or vizla. I never said all fox reds were crossed up. I could post pictures all night off of the net of very questionable fox reds, but why I already have my opinion.

And the picture from the 1920's in no way resembles the dog I posted, except in color and that isn't that close either. They both have 4 legs, a head, and a tail that is about it.


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## Africana (Mar 24, 2009)

Sissi said:


> Hi David
> Sorry but I still disagree. Of course parts of your statement are right. For example the part about the primary market for pets.
> But as you stated, this board consists only of people working their dogs and I really love to read all these posts, they show a beautiful part of history and also they clearly show that the color is important for these people and I don´t really understand why it shouldn´t. You see your dog every day and why not having an unique looking dog, even when it is working. For my part I love the fox-red color.


Apologies that I cannot address you by name, I haven't quite got the hang of it all on this forum yet. Is it Sissi?
I beg to differ, perhaps this post has in the past only consisted of people who work their dogs, but now it has at least one that does not! Me!
Being rather new to the breeding fraternity, I have concentrated on showing up until now, because when I first set up and registered my Kennel, I had the resources, but not the time, to engage in field trials, and now that I have given up on the corporate world to concentrate on my breeding program, I have the time but not the resources. 
I was trawling the net to find a good diagram to learn more about the finer points of conformation, with particular emphasis on angulation both front and rear, and that led me to a post on this site. I immediately decided to join in the hope that it would give me some insight into the working trial world for that day in the future when I do become active in working my dogs. 
My foundation bitch comes from a bloodline that is very successful in both show and field trials, having Champions in both disciplines, and I am confident that she will produce a puppy for me before she is retired that I can work.
Perhaps you will notice in my dogs' pedigrees that they all descend from Sandylands ancestors, quite recently too, a fact of which I am very proud. Sandylands Labs won both BOB and RBOB at Crufts this year.


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## Africana (Mar 24, 2009)

gsc said:


> A fox red is genetically ee. The Bb, BB, bb is not a factor in the red color, that another locus. The chololate can influence the nose, lip and around the eye skin color, not the red. As far as shading, there is obviously a transition between red and plain yellow, I don't know where that is.



From Bb, Ee and Beyond, by Pamela Darvol.

Fox-reds

Breeders of "true fox reds" will quickly point out that some yellow Labs professed to be "fox-red" are really more dark tan than red and are therefore, not "true fox-reds". The difference in concentration of red color (determined by the "ay" or "as" allele of the A locus) is dependent upon the alleles at the C locus. The "C" allele allows for full expression and intensity of red tones, while the "cch" allele will dilute the red to a clear tan color. 

Therefore, the genotype of each color variation is:

ay_B_ C_ee = True Fox-Red
as_B_C_ee * = True Fox-Red with Saddling**

ay_B_ cch _ee = Pseudo Fox-Red
as_B_cch_ee = Pseudo Fox-Red with Saddling**


* the underline denotes that the gene locus may be homozygous or heterozygous with a less dominant allele present at the partner-chromosome gene locus
** Labs with this genotype demonstrate the red coloring localized to certain areas of the body.

The "as" allele produces the "saddling effects" seen in many yellows in which there appears darker yellow pigmentation on the back,
ears, legs, etc. compared to areas of light yellow on the shoulders, neck, and underside. The "as" allele also increases intensity of phaeomelanin, but restricts its production to the former mentioned areas on the Lab. 

The observation that there appears to be no solid fox-red or solid "pseudo" fox-red Labs may be explained by Little's hypothesis that the combination of an "ay" in a homozygous "e" (yellow) dog is lethal. If Little's hypothesis is correct, then this would mean that all fox-red or "pseudo" fox-red Labs must be: as_B_C_ee or as_B_cch_ee, respectively.

"Silver"

The silver coat color in Labradors has gained much attention recently and is a very controversial topic (see The Labrador Coat Color Controversy: Do Silver Labs Really Exist?). Reasons for the controversy stem from the lack of information available to trace the origins of this color in the breed as well as the fact that the AKC standard for the Labrador breed does not acknowledge silver as an acceptable color for a Lab. Some breed enthusiasts consider the silver coloration to be a sign of impurity of the bloodline, however, what geneticists have come to understand of recessive alleles is that they may be passed through many generations going undetected, such as the allele for tan points discussed above. 

The range observed in silver coloration suggests that silver occurs through a modifying gene. There have been several possible outcomes observed for the silver Lab:

Black Lab + silver modifier = charcoal gray coat with a "sparkly"-like appearance. Nose: dark gray; Eyes: dark to light gray

Chocolate Lab + silver modifier = "mousy"-brown gray coat. Nose: same as coat; Eyes: yellow to gray-yellow

Yellow Lab + silver modifier = platinum to pale silver (yellow with gray casting). Ears: gray (instead of red-toned); Nose: dark to pale gray; Eyes: dark to pale gray.

There are several possible explanations for the silver coat color in Labs. The first explanation would attribute this rare color in the breed to the D locus. Recall that the alleles of the D locus modify the color determined by the B locus. Therefore, if a dog is homozygous or heterozygous for black at the B locus, presence of homozygous recessive "d" at the D locus would dilute the black pigment to appear blue. Alternatively, if a dog is homozygous for chocolate at the B locus, presence of homozygous recessive "d" at the D locus would dilute the chocolate pigment to appear silver. The absence of the corresponding "blue" phenotype in the breed, however, would seem to argue against this explanation.

Another explanation for silver coat color in Labs would attribute this color to the C locus. There is an allele mutant at the C locus that has been determined to cause silver coat color and blue eyes in dogs. The "cb" allele is believed to be a type of albinism. Since alleles at the C locus influence red pigment only, effects of the "cb" allele should only be observed in dogs homozygous "e" at the E locus. Therefore, a silver Lab would not only have to receive the yellow allele from both parents, but also receive the silver allele from both parents (which is recessive to the common "cch" allele). This allele would explain the silver-toned modification of coat observed in yellow Labs in the presence of the recessive "e" allele, however it would not explain the eumelanin modification in the black or chocolate-based silvers (since the C locus alleles primarily dilute phaeomelanin).

Likewise, the possibility of a "partial loss of function" mutation that may have occurred in the dominant "E" allele resulting in muted tones of eumelanin would not explain the modification of phaeomelanin (yellow).

An alternative explanation for explaining the modification of both eumelanin and phaeomelanin again returns to the wild-type/gain-of-function "E+" allele that encodes for a normal functioning Mc1 receptor. If this allele either occurred as a spontaneous mutation or was introduced into the breed through interbreeding, this might explain the modification occurring in all three colors, particularly when one considers the following:

When one traces the pedigrees of some silver Labs, one finds a history of other color oddities occurring in some related bloodlines to the silver Labs. Occurrences of "black-casting" in chocolates, muted chocolate coloration ("card-board box" coloring), as well as the occasional occurrence of black puppies being whelped from two chocolate parents suggests that these "chocolates" were probably not chocolate at all but rather E+ yellows. As such, it is conceivable that the Agouti alleles could produce an intense red pigment resulting in deep red (interpreted as chocolate especially in the absence of "saddling" modifiers) or diluted, muted red (card board box color) due to further modification by the alleles of the C locus). In black Labs, an ayayEE+ geneotype could produce a muted black color (because of the presence of both receptor types) especially if the alleles at the C locus were cch, thus resulting in a deep charcoal, silvery coat appearance. This suggests a possible role of E+ for the silver coloration as well as for a multitude of other coat color variants that occasionally occur in the breed. 

I hope this is of assistance to those engaged in this discussion.


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## Africana (Mar 24, 2009)

This was our group at one point. 
Lighter dog on back row left is HRCH Nugget's Gold Dust, MH, Dusty, next to her is her son, HRCH UH Run-N-Gun's Rhythm and Blues, MH Jive, next to him is a dog we bought, HR St. Pauli's Goose Girl, SH. Katy was too much dog for us and we sold her to a professional trainer.
Red dog in the middle row is HR Run-N-Gun's Eat my Dust, SH. Sassy was litter mate to Jive and now lives in California. Next to her is a full sister HR Run-N-Gun's Hunt'n Honey, SH. Finishing out that row is HRCH Super Kwik Pic, MH, Lotto. Front row left is Nugget and on the right is HRCH UH Run-N-Gun's I've Got Rhythm, MH Dancer.

By the way, Africana, the only dog with black whiskers in our family was the black one, Lotto. So there goes that theory.

I love theories that get blown, it avoids confusion. Gorgeous photo, I don't think I have ever seen such a happy bunch all together.


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## Africana (Mar 24, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Welcome to RTF, very cool to have another continent join in the fun. You have a nice website and very lovely Labradors. I look forward to hearing retriever stories from your part of the world.


Thank you very much, for the welcome and the compliments. 
You may have to wait a little while for the retriever stories, but in the meantime I shall be gleaning as much information as I can about the working trial world, at least in your part of the planet!


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## Latisha (Feb 2, 2004)

We have a similar color in Tollers. All Tollers are red, but some carry a deep shade of mahogany red. The current theory as told to me by a geneticist versed in color genetics is that there is a modifier on a yet unknown locus that determines whether the dog will be "normal" yellow/red, or the darker shade of mahogany red. If this is true, it is possible that mahagony red in Tollers, the fox red color in Labs & the deep red that occasionally shows in Goldens all come from the same place.

This is an example of mahogany red in a Toller.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Pretty dog!


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

Africana said:


> Apologies that I cannot address you by name, I haven't quite got the hang of it all on this forum yet. Is it Sissi?
> I beg to differ, perhaps this post has in the past only consisted of people who work their dogs, but now it has at least one that does not! Me!
> Being rather new to the breeding fraternity, I have concentrated on showing up until now, because when I first set up and registered my Kennel, I had the resources, but not the time, to engage in field trials, and now that I have given up on the corporate world to concentrate on my breeding program, I have the time but not the resources.
> I was trawling the net to find a good diagram to learn more about the finer points of conformation, with particular emphasis on angulation both front and rear, and that led me to a post on this site. I immediately decided to join in the hope that it would give me some insight into the working trial world for that day in the future when I do become active in working my dogs.
> ...


Hi (sorry don´t know your name either , by the way my name is Ulrike
You did right when you joined this board. It is a very nice place with lots of experienced people (actually not me, I´m a beginner). 
Right now you have a very nice chance in your country to learn about working-tests. There is a well known German working-trial judge in South Africa. He is doing training-days over there so if you have the chance I would really recommend that you watch (or participate with your dogs). If you are interested, you can pm me.


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## Jennifer Teed (Jan 28, 2009)

To all those with fox reds, do you put yellow for all their papers and such? For example if you take them to the vet do you say I have a yellow because its recognized or do you put fox red?

If I put fox red I'd probably get 100 questions, I think I'll be putting yellow on everything when I get my pup.


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## Africana (Mar 24, 2009)

In the official breed standard there is no such colour grouping as fox-red. Everything from the palest cream to fox-red is yellow. 
It is a bit annoying actually, particularly from my point of view, because there are no fox-reds in South Africa any longer, and it is impossible to find out where the ones that did exist at one time came from, because all puppies are registered as yellow regardless of the intensity of the colour; and I would love to breed a line of fox-reds. 
For the purpose of the vet, it doesn't matter what you call it, it isn't relevant for the veterinary records.


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## Africana (Mar 24, 2009)

Sissi said:


> Hi (sorry don´t know your name either , by the way my name is Ulrike
> You did right when you joined this board. It is a very nice place with lots of experienced people (actually not me, I´m a beginner).
> Right now you have a very nice chance in your country to learn about working-tests. There is a well known German working-trial judge in South Africa. He is doing training-days over there so if you have the chance I would really recommend that you watch (or participate with your dogs). If you are interested, you can pm me.


I am sorry that I have been absent off the site, and haven't participated in any of the forum discussions, life threw me a few curved balls in the past months.
Thanks Ulrike for your tip about the training, but the German gentleman was actually in Cape Town, judging field trials and obviously doing some training as well during his visit, but Cape Town is 1000miles away from where I am, so it was not possible for me to get there.


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## Britt&Angie S. (Apr 2, 2009)

Our very first male we had (black) came from a black sire and fox red dam both parents had clearances and good titled pedigree and our male had a nice litter including 2 yellow and 1 fox red.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

AFRICANA??? South Africa???
What the hell!!! Am I missing something here? Those yeller dawgs sure look a LOT like Dave and Vicky's dogs. Same names too!!! LOL.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

She was reposting Vicky's previous post/photo, didn't do it by using quote so it is a little confusing, Africana's comments about Vicky's photo are just the last couple lines.


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## Jeffrey J Brown (May 18, 2009)

Gotta throw in some pics of my "fox red" boy:

View attachment 2616


View attachment 2617


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## Certainty (Apr 17, 2008)

Jeffry, beautiful dog! 
Out of my 5 yellows, 2 are fox reds. I love the shade.


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