# Definition of style



## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Is a high power dog running around out of control stylish? Can a dog with less athletic ability be stylish? I would like to hear what you guys think.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Out of control is unappealing to me. I don't care if the dog is as fast as a cheetah, out of control isn't what I look for in a blind. A slower dog (Not a pig, but not a speed demon.) can be stylish. To me, style is when a dog has swagger. It's confident & enjoying it's task. Just my opinion.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

My opinion/

Style has nothing to do with speed.

Style is confidence, working as a team,,positive attitude.

Gooser


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> My opinion/
> 
> Style has nothing to do with speed.
> 
> ...


Gooser nailed it!


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

A dog that moves with confidence, looks pleasing to the eye while working...Steve S


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Seems you might be fishing Scott. No one thinks an out of control dog has style. But a dog that walks when sent after a bird is one that has no style, and the rules say that such dogs should be judged down compared to a stylish dog where the work is otherwise similar. Even older dogs that have slowed down, show style by their effort. And dogs that seem ground down by their training (& its application techniques) usually are the ones that walk or leave the line in a zombie-like slow-motion trot.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Fishing a little. Hope all is well with you and you're dogs David.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

scott spalding said:


> Is a high power dog running around out of control stylish? Can a dog with less athletic ability be stylish? I would like to hear what you guys think.


Hey Scott,

Hope all is well with you and the family.

Yes, an out of control wild dog can exhibit style. A dog that runs with enthusiasm but under control also exhibits style. A plodding dog that pin points marks and runs blinds like its on a string does not.

To me, for lack of a better term, style means "enthusiasm" for the game. I think in general, its like porn, you know it when you see it.

In the games we play, everything is a balance. You can have a pin point marker, but they must show trainability in order to progress through the stake and be there at the end of the day.

A "10" or excellence in style, isn't going to keep a dog in if his marking is lacking or trainability is lacking.

Balance balance balance.

WRL


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Style exhibits teamwork.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Stylish dog has speed, control is enthusiastic and has a good attitude (no tail between legs)!IMO


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Style is moving with confidence toward the birds in a manner that is pleasing to the eye of the beholder. Getting the job done in a efficient manner, so to speak. Like someone said, "You know it , when you see it". Bill


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## mjolnir (Nov 21, 2004)

Style starts on line, picking out the guns, watching the marks, eager anticipation of what is to come and continues from there.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I agree you know style when you see style. As an aside, I have never witnessed a dog failed for style in a hunt test. Has anyone seen style as the reason for being dropped in either a trial or test?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

fishduck said:


> I agree you know style when you see style. As an aside, I have never witnessed a dog failed for style in a hunt test. *Has anyone seen style as the reason for being dropped in either a trial or test?*


Yes, from trials, and on more than one occasion. The rule book supports doing so, I might add. But to the OP, I believe speed is a component of style, but is relative to each dog to a point. You can't expect a 12 year old to move as fast as he once did. But he may be as fast as his anatomy and physiology will allow. You can tell when that is not so by watching. 

I define style as follows: "	*Style:* One of the Webster’s dictionary definitions of style is “showiness”. This is a term used to describe the speed, spirit, or enthusiasm with which a dog moves (going out and back) during a retrieve." You can see it, even without being an expert, when a dog is showing these traits together on retrieve, or when he isn't. Slinking around, or barely trotting on the other hand - each having 'speed' components in the negative - can be readliy identified too.

So, are you planning on contrasting this term with momentum at some point, or did you have another reason for this question? What are you _fishing_ for?

Evan


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Things are great Lee thanks. The Family is doing great Michael is growing like a weed. I have a five month old pup that looks just like his pop and looks to be a keeper. Hope all is well with you and you're family. Headed to the blind to play some retriever games.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Style exhibits teamwork.


I watched a handler dog team that it was quite apperent neither one wanted to be their or liked what they were doing it was painful to watch, however they did have great teamwork.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Style is about attitude. Is the dog confident and ENJOYING the work.

A 2yo can be moving fast but running scared and out of obligation and the 12 yo can be moving slow knows where he is going and having the time of his life.

As a judge, Which dog would you rather call back to the next series to watch again?

Tim


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Style exhibits teamwork.


Then what's your definition of trainability?

To me, style is enthusiasm for the "game" and trainability is exhibiting teamwork. Lots of dogs can have both. And I've seen plenty of dogs have one or the other.

Yes, I have seen dogs dropped for lack of style. Its painful.

WRL


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

It should be mentioned that what many see in a dog that has been correctly described here as "style", is often _labled_ as "momentum"; _not_ the same things.

Evan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Best way I can explain it.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

In HT, the rulebook should prevail and it gives a fairly good definition of style. Don't know about HRC and AKC FT books.

Yes, I have seen a dog dropped for style in AKC SH test.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

WRL said:


> Then what's your definition of trainability?
> 
> To me, style is enthusiasm for the "game" and trainability is exhibiting teamwork. Lots of dogs can have both. And I've seen plenty of dogs have one or the other.
> 
> ...


Agree with what you said and added IMO, highly trainable dogs are intelligent, easy to work with, love their work, good attitudes, hard chargers, perform to their optimum and have style. IMO


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Style is not necessarily what they do as much as how they do it. HPW


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

Dog is eager & excited to be working& looks like his is thrilled to be allowed to do the job asked of him because he obviously loves the job that he is been allowed to do


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't know if this will make it clearer, but perhaps it might help.






Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

This dog has style. 

I've only dropped one dog ever in a master test for style. It was painful to watch, I wanted to poke my eyes out...

/Paul


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

No out of control is junk. You know damm well what is style Scott.
My definition of style. There are all forms of style when it comes to this 
Game. In my mind the dog that shows a attitude that its not enjoying itself 
Lacks style. Style ain't speed ain't the big entry ain't running with a head of steam
To put up a very quick hunt be cause it was lined to area.
Style is a mutt that sits whatches birds and retrieves them with accuracy


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Just got done hunting so I will tell you what I believe a stylish retriever is. When a retriever walks with confidence from the blind to the mat but is aware without being told were it needs to be. The retriever sits at the mat steady but confident preparing for the test eyes forward ears up and feet on the ground. He leaves the mat when sent with confidence and responds to commands promptly and with presision. Extremely stylish dogs make lite work of blinds even keyhole blinds. Dogs that have more momentum than control are not stylish it's like a super model that can't walk in heals.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

I was lucky enough to judge a team that showed my definition of style several years ago. We were doing a water blind Peppers farm in Western Washington and Lanse Brown was running one of his dogs. I will never forget what I witnessed that day it was on a level that I have yet to witness since that day and doubt I ever will it was the definition of style. They were a team that performed with understanding, confidence and athletic ability. I believe to this day the handler and the dog had perfected the game. It was if they were speaking the same language for that short period of time.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

scott spalding said:


> Just got done hunting so I will tell you what I believe a stylish retriever is. When a retriever walks with confidence from the blind to the mat but is aware without being told were it needs to be. The retriever sits at the mat steady but confident preparing for the test eyes forward ears up and feet on the ground. He leaves the mat when sent with confidence and responds to commands promptly and with presision. Extremely stylish dogs make lite work of blinds even keyhole blinds. Dogs that have more momentum than control are not stylish it's like a super model that can't walk in heals.


Scott,

I think most would agree that all those attributes are desireable in a working retriever. I can't make a logical connection with style when considering any of them, especially in a traditional sense. There are some nice descriptions of various gundog breeds on the Pheasants Forever site that may help provide insight into a more classic view of style as relates to hunting dogs. For example:

•	*Breed: Golden Retriever*
Type: Retriever
Hunting Style
Golden Retrievers are versatile hunting retrievers that are well suited to cold hunting conditions due to an outer coat that is dense and water repellent. They are a tough and durable breed *with* *good speed and agility *and a great love of water. Goldens will quarter in front of the hunter to flush upland birds and should stay within comfortable gun range. They live to retrieve.
•	*Breed: Labrador Retriever*
Type: Retriever
Hunting Style
Labrador Retrievers, or Labs, are versatile hunting retrievers that are well suited to adverse weather conditions and very cold water. They are a tough and durable breed combining a sturdy build *with good speed and agility*. Labs will quarter in front of the hunter to flush upland birds and should stay within comfortable gun range.

There are numerous other breeds listed in much the same manner. References to speed and agility typify style, along with grace of movement, high tail, enthusiasm, etc. What you're referencing as "style" appear to have more connection with learned behavior, flavored with some innate traits.

Can you see where I'm coming from on this?

Evan


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Yes I can and I agree to some extent. I just think that there are quite a few people that think momentum is the definition of style and use it as an excuse from time to time to justify poor performance.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

For those who think an out of control dog can have style, I have another label...unenlightened enthusiasm.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm with you there, Scott. Over quite a few years the terms "Style" and "Momentum" have been used interchabably, including uses to eliminate dogs from tests & trials. Lack of style is something the AKC rules allow a judge to penalize a dog for, up to and including elimination. Below is a quote from AKC Field Trials - One Judges Perspective, by John Cavanaugh and Mitch Patterson - two of the most solid sources on such topics. This is page 5










I get the impression we're pretty close on our overall interpretation.

Evan


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

Hey Scott...here is what style LOOKS like!

BTW...this is Wrangler 












.


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## Labs Will-Do (Jan 31, 2007)

Dog is obviously out-a-control Keith . All four legs tucked!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Keith Farmer said:


> Hey Scott...here is what style LOOKS like!
> 
> BTW...this is Wrangler .


What kinda' water dog is _that?! _Can't even swim???


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Great picture


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Evan said:


> I'm with you there, Scott. Over quite a few years the terms "Style" and "Momentum" have been used interchabably, including uses to eliminate dogs from tests & trials. Lack of style is something the AKC rules allow a judge to penalize a dog for, up to and including elimination. Below is a quote from AKC Field Trials - One Judges Perspective, by John Cavanaugh and Mitch Patterson - two of the most solid sources on such topics. This is page 5
> 
> 
> 
> ...


....and where did John get this? Right out of the FT rulebook, which is a pretty solid source also.

(7) Style is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance at trials, for example: by the gaiety of his manner in approaching the line, by his alertness on-line, by his eagerness and speed on retrieves, by his water-entry, by his pick-up of birds and by his return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance; together with ability to mark, they constitute the most important factors for placings in Derby Stakes.
In all stakes, in respect to “style,’’ a desired performance includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) a fast-determined departure, both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the “fall,’’ (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast return. Dogs may be credited for outstanding and brilliant exhibitions of style, or they may be penalized for deficiencies in style — the severity of the penalty ranging from a minor demerit, to elimination from the..........


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

fishduck said:


> I agree you know style when you see style. As an aside, I have never witnessed a dog failed for style in a hunt test. Has anyone seen style as the reason for being dropped in either a trial or test?


 My co-judge I and dropped 2 many years ago on water blinds..Same handler...Steve S


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

fishduck said:


> I agree you know style when you see style. As an aside, I have never witnessed a dog failed for style in a hunt test. Has anyone seen style as the reason for being dropped in either a trial or test?


No... but I've wanted to. Stopped judging AKC years ago because between the local club and AKC they seemed incapable of tracking judging assignments. I've judged HRC for many years since then. Never dropped a dog for style, but like I said, I've wanted to. You know style, or lack of when you see it, but most dogs lacking it take themselves out for other reasons so the point becomes moot. JD


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Tim Carrion said:


> *Style is about attitude.* Is the dog confident and ENJOYING the work. A 2yo can be moving fast but running scared and out of obligation and the 12 yo can be moving slow knows where he is going and having the time of his life. As a judge, Which dog would you rather call back to the next series to watch again?


+2

Quoted for truth. Desire, desire, desire, it is all about DESIRE!

Desire to work! Desire to be there! Desire to find the bird! Desire to retrieve!

See my signature line.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Kevin! It's good to see that name! I hope you and your family are well!

Evan


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

AmiableLabs said:


> +2
> 
> Quoted for truth. Desire, desire, desire, it is all about DESIRE!
> 
> ...


In my opinion you nailed it my friend. I might add it shows in pure desire to do the work and if the dog goes out , well one cannot say "it didn't go out in style" with a tongue in cheek. The old adage of I would rather see my dog break, then go out in some lack of "something or another ", might apply. Except I have had one break in her last 6 all-age starts and never telegraphs it, just goes. I don't know if I believe the old adage any more! How you been Kevin ?


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Everybody seems to have the right idea!! So then why are judges giving dogs who are running with bad attitudes, lack of desire to be there blue ribbons who title FC and AFC?? Scared to drop them....your friends...blame it on your co judge?? WHY??


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## Brian Courser (Feb 10, 2010)

fishduck said:


> I agree you know style when you see style. As an aside, I have never witnessed a dog failed for style in a hunt test. Has anyone seen style as the reason for being dropped in either a trial or test?


They usually fail on something else. Hard fail on style as I feel it objective.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Has anyone seen style as the reason for being dropped in a trial?


yes I have both seen them dropped and I have personally dropped them


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I only asked because in my tailgate and gallery discussions I have only had one person admit to losing or dropping a dog for style. He didn't train the dog initially but was rehabbing it. I think judging style is both good for the breeds and discourages heavy handed training practices. I am encouraged that it is more widespread than I imagined.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Is "style" like "beauty"... in the eye of the beholder? Or like pornography... can't define it but know it when we see it. 

To me the best definition of style is "a thrill to watch". Intensity. When you get goosebumps watching an animal do what it was bred to do... you're watching style.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I guess every region wants to think the group of dogs is better than others. That said of the TRIALS I have attended or judged I have seen less than can be counted on one hand for a good number of years. IMHO if the dogs has ears back, tail tucked is slinky and so on is most likely wont finish a trial. I have made note on the judges sheets but the dog(s) have never been in contention. If the dog acts like that it is most likely a unpleasent training day. I like th dogs that while on the way bay to the line look out in the field for the next mark, sit with ears up when they lock in and wag the tail. A dog that jumps nicely into the water whle returning with the last water mark is nice as well. As for the porn metaphor I like to watch the midget with a flaming goat with a hermaphrodite in a tub of tapioca pudding.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

1tulip said:


> Is "style" like "beauty"... in the eye of the beholder? Or like pornography... can't define it but know it when we see it.
> 
> To me the best definition of style is "a thrill to watch". Intensity. When you get goosebumps watching an animal do what it was bred to do... you're watching style.


Sorry I missed this post. I have no opinion to offer on the porn metaphor, but I really like your second paragraph. That's a description that anyone who has seen a stylish dog can relate to. I think that's what the passage previously quoted from the rule book defines.

Evan


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

I have dropped a dog in a hunt test for style. (several years ago) The dog showed the least amount of effort that it required to get the bird. It seemed reluctant to come to the line, and made only a minimal effort to watch the birds being shot. 

I've carried dogs to the next series that ran almost as slow as than the dog I mentioned, but they showed intensity and true desire to do the work. Some breeds sometimes are slower, and some old dogs are slower. I enjoy enthusiasm, speed is nowhere near as important.



fishduck said:


> I agree you know style when you see style. As an aside, I have never witnessed a dog failed for style in a hunt test. Has anyone seen style as the reason for being dropped in either a trial or test?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

counciloak said:


> I have dropped a dog in a hunt test for style. (several years ago) The dog showed the least amount of effort that it required to get the bird. It seemed reluctant to come to the line, and made only a minimal effort to watch the birds being shot.
> 
> I've carried dogs to the next series that ran almost as slow as than the dog I mentioned, but they showed intensity and true desire to do the work. Some breeds sometimes are slower, and some old dogs are slower. I enjoy enthusiasm, speed is nowhere near as important.


It is good to see you posting. Thanks for the input! It is good to know that style is still being judged.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> Everybody seems to have the right idea!! So then why are judges giving dogs who are running with bad attitudes, lack of desire to be there blue ribbons who title FC and AFC?? Scared to drop them....your friends...blame it on your co judge?? WHY??


Randy

First, I haven't seen the problems you apparently have. Both Terry and I talked about the dogs that we recently judged at Swamp Dog, which you attended and neither of us remembered any style issues.

Are there piggy dogs? Sure, but far fewer than 10 years ago - and those I have seen recently are not very competitive.

Second, I will admit that many moons ago when I began judging, I placed a dog whose style on blinds was marginal. Since then, I have denied placement to dogs with poor style. I have also set up blinds that were too hard and cut some dogs I wish I had not. I think it's all part of your education as a judge.

Third, I think I need to see more than one instance of poor style before I drop. For example, a dog might be nervous about running tight to a gun, but then pick up speed. Or it might be uptight on a short blind, but fine on the long blind. I have dropped dogs that slinked into the water, but poor style was compounded by multiple casts and refusals. So the drop was due to more than poor style.

Fourth, as for carrying your friends - that is an issue of personal integrity unique to each individual. I have dropped good friends, and people I couldn't stand. I have placed friends and people I couldn't stand too. Because the mission is to award the best dogs for a given weekend - regardless of their owners, handlers, or past record


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Interesting and illuminating discussion. 

My dog and his idiot owner/handler/trainer just wish that style = speed and that it got judged the same way WD-40 gets used. You know, if a little bit is good a whole lot is better, even if it is not aimed very well. 

Signed,
Wishing I had known then what I know now to deal with my track star


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