# Raising a Fire Breather Correctly



## duckdawgs (Jun 24, 2016)

I have been reading a lot of posts on here about hard charging dogs that have noise issue or serious line issues. Also see where a lot of people do not prefer dogs that are this hot because there is no way to control them. 

IMO it is 75% how you raise the pup. I am picking up a potential hard charger in a few months and wanted to get some opinions on it. Note I am very cautious about the dog having all of their shots before exposing them to everything. 


Things I do with high drive dogs

1. They go everywhere with me- They get up at 5am and go to work with me which includes office time, truck rides, stop in at tractor supply or feed store, walk in the woods, etc. - new situations everyday and constant relationship building and training even if the dog doesn't notice it.

2. I maintain a standard no matter where I am or who is around. If I say sit you sit no matter what. If I can slide a sheet of paper between their but and the ground they have to watch me go pick up the bird. I don't want them to know that creeping is even a thing that can be done. 

3. I let him honor every chance we get even if I just sit with him on honor bucket and watch every dog go at a training day. 

4. I like the Hillman Traffic cop idea, 

5. when their joints are done growing I practice cardio with them separate from training. This includes running behind a fourwheeler, swimming long distances, running a few miles with my wife. releases some energy out of them. 


Those are a few things off the top of my head. I would love to get some opinions on these and anything else that I can do as well. I truly think spending this amount of time with them and controlling any issue the first time they come up instead of letting it develop into a habit is a must. Thoughts?


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Every dog is different. Having a list of things to work on is great but what I have learned about extremely high drive dogs is that those tendencies will squirt out somewhere, typically in Whack-A-Mole fashion. What about balance and ending each training situation successfully when the dog insists on defying you or goes backwards on the standard? 
I would say focus more on reading the dog, timing your corrections perfectly and matching the correction to the infraction while applying sound training principles. If it's a real high drive dog, once its time for the heeling stick and e-collar, they will be used to a greater degree and you need to be ready to use them in a more concentrated manner than you would for the average dog. More often than not, the corrections required for these dogs may seem way over the top and not everyone has the stomach for it. I guess what I am saying is typically these dogs continue to be more of a challenge way beyond puppyhood and trying to stifle all of it right out of the gate may create more problems than you are solving.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

What I did with my male is similar to what OP states. It is boot camp 24/7 for him. He is with me all the time, when I let the other dogs out of the house, I make him sit and watch the others leave then I release him, when I feed him bowl goes down and he has to wait for me to say "OK" to eat, when in the kennel, the other 5 dogs are turned loose I open his kennel and he is to sit and wait while the others run then I release him. He NEVER gets a fun bumper, ever. I also have him honor all the time teaching not every retrieve is yours.

As above poster stated, these are high maintainance dogs for sure, a lot of work. My good buddy has a 12 year old Ranger male, watch him break on a HT for HRC on test dog! But this dog also at 12 will never quit and still breaks ice!

I cannot get him to break or creep hunting. I have had 15 snows dropped, 25 shots fired with another dog breaking and he willl not move......Now having said that a FT or HT still line issues. Something about tests.....High flyers perhaps IMHO not the best for the HT/FT game but for me as a hunter first and foremost the only dog I will feed.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

My two cents:

I own a firebreather and her puppy, another firebreather. I needed to rethink my ideas on obedience with Mom, I was failing at training. Besides being extremely driven she is also independent---to this day she has never brought me something I have thrown on her own so that I may rethrow it (she is 8 yrs old). She will run with a happy bumper and not return it. The complete retrieve is a trained behavior.

Puppy is also an extremely hard driving dog. Puppy testers said he would be difficult to train because he had no desire to please and did not follow the tester (among other things). I had already decided that I would take the most difficult pup for myself, couldn't give that away. He is extremely distracted/reactive.

General rules: I keep an open mind. I did not TEACH obedience by correction but used an operant model. After a behavior is learned I will then use aversives, corrections for "not listening", of course still being fair to the dog. I also get input from an obedience trainer who is at the top of his game. Work on one issue at a time. And remember---"this is who she is/this is who he is". Maintain standards but don't get pissed off at a firebreather who may sometimes become "possessed".

I would not trade either one of these dogs.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

RetrieverNation said:


> What about balance and ending each training situation successfully when the dog insists on defying you


Why do you habe to end every train in session with success for the dog?


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## fnsret (Nov 12, 2003)

George, I feel you buddy. I went through it with Jay and I guess Buffy got it from him. I have a new 10 wk puppy who is a alpha female, not very lovable, very independent, rules the roost with three other adult dogs at 10 weeks, not one thing bothers her or scares her, (she went after a frog the other day in a pond and didn't bother her a bit) She doesn't even want to bring a retrieve back for a piece of hot dog cause the bumper is hers, but she will bust butt and turn a flip and roll just to get a bumper from 40 yrds. I do a lot of control training: exercises with me making her lie on her back for periods of time not letting her move, look at me exercises, walking on a leash, simple sit exercises. I do these 2-3 times a day. She still doesn't think I am the boss yet but she will figure it out. Alpha's dogs are fun and a challenge but are well worth it, if the obedience is done correctly and they will focus.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Slow down, calm down, quiet down. Too often, we can allow the manic nature of the dog to influence our attitude and behavior. You cannot get an excited dog to be calm if you are excited. You cannot get a loud dog to be quiet if you are loud. It can become a destructive cycle.
Slow, methodical, calm and quiet enforcement of a consistent standard is generally the best way to deal with a hard charger (or pretty much any dog, for that matter)


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

fnsret

Same lines? Sure sounds like it. Not very lovable? Buffy is the first female I have owned who absolutely does not seek my affection, never cuddles up to me (I am hurt). I do remember talking to you about Jay. I believe this independence runs in the lines. I wouldn't trade Buffy for anything. She is one wicked pheasant dog and I mean wicked. Thor is in training but we shall see. 

And good luck with your new pup.


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## big trax (Mar 31, 2015)

I can't say it is scientific, but I wouldn't trade any dog for my fire breather - love the style and attitude. Last weekend, after we ran the first series of a master, the judge said to me as I was walking off the line, "It's nice to drive a Ferrari isn't it?" My response was, "Yes...in a straight stretch, but when they crash, they crash hard!" 

Mine lives with me and I think she'd be unmanageable if she didn't. I have other dogs that train as often and live in the kennels. This one...she must live with me lol.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Or is it that the dog is actually more driven or just doesnt care about authority? Probably some of both, but I think tractability (or lack of) is often confused with having a lot of prey drive.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

My fire breather is extremely biddable. Handles on blinds like a dream. Couldn't ask for any better. Lately, the honor bucket has been an issue.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Hate to break the news to anyone, but EVERYONE thinks they have a "fire breather"..and thats ok, whether its because the dog is fast on foot, or highly excitable when training or hunting...if you think you have a fire breather then based on your perception you in fact do..

Lots of people can give you advice on how to "handle" this type of dog, but to paraphrase a sports metaphor.." ...you can only hope to contain them..."

in the FT game its almost a certainty that such a dog will look brilliant and perform breath taking feats.....but will also break one's heart at the most inopportune moment, and with no apparent warning...

Enjoy your ride for whatever the duration may be


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> Hate to break the news to anyone, but EVERYONE thinks they have a "fire breather"..and thats ok, whether its because the dog is fast on foot, or highly excitable when training or hunting...if you think you have a fire breather then based on your perception you in fact do..
> 
> Lots of people can give you advice on how to "handle" this type of dog, but to paraphrase a sports metaphor.." ...you can only hope to contain them..."
> 
> ...


Times two. Those that break and those that are going to break regards....


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Some dogs that are considered "firebreathers" just aren't trained properly...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Hate to break the news to anyone, but EVERYONE thinks they have a "fire breather"


I don't think so. Not everyone wants a firebreather either. Many people don't like living on the edge. It's much more fun running a responsive, yet compliant dog as a team. How many firebreathers are just poorly trained by their handlers that think it's cool having a firebreather? You would think it's an extension of....., well, you get my gist


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Not really one thing in particular but from very early everything is earned. The sooner the dog learns he doesn't get what he wants until I get what I want the happier we will be.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> I don't think so. Not everyone wants a firebreather either. Many people don't like living on the edge. It's much more fun running a responsive, yet compliant dog as a team. How many firebreathers are just poorly trained by their handlers that think it's cool having a firebreather? You would think it's an extension of....., well, you get my gist


So agree!!! 

roflmao on your last statement.


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## mission-ranch-k9 (Apr 14, 2017)

I'm new so maybe I should just lurk. But I love a drivey dog so here goes it.
We all know energetic dogs train easier then lazy dogs. Higher then normal drive dogs also have the potential to get gunner vision. While the original poster has a slew of good plans and a strong set of structure, but there is always or should always be one common denominator in training. The handler. With a drivey dog the handler needs to remain calm and patient. The dog will easily feed off handlers energy and if the handler becomes spastic as well the training goes down hill. As a puppy I would work on drills that reward thinking and capping. That is my biggest training opinion of wide open dogs. Stay calm and as pups work on capping and keeping them out of the tunnel vision zone.


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## mission-ranch-k9 (Apr 14, 2017)

Not gunner vision, tunnel vision.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I would encourage anyone with what they consider a "fire breather" to begin thinking less about "controlling" things and put some brainpower into how the dog perceives situations and earns it's rewards (retrieves). 

The approach you outlined is not wrong but it will work better if it has some elements added. 

No doubt having a good standard and lots of time together is helpful. Adding the idea of learning to earn retrieves with calm, steady behavior will enhance your success.

This concept underlies Hillman so that's a good path. Try to think about the more philosophical elements of it vs. the tactical. Bill is trying to teach you to build a relationship where the dog does things for you to EARN - not so much to avoid control. Start to think more deeply about desensitization and influencing your dog's emotional state when working.

Good luck!


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## mission-ranch-k9 (Apr 14, 2017)

Absolutely, reward a calm disposition with a retrieve. Sounds very nice. Good calm mental outlook earns him a retrieve and a little time to breathe that fire


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

My firebreather is very smart figured that into your equation


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## lincoln_retrievers (Mar 26, 2017)

My dog now is a "fire breather" by definition earlier stated-"it is it what is to the owner". No doubt the dogs can get that gunner vision and get trapped in the mind. But I will say it comes down to learning that dog(if its older-or newer to you), or from a puppy training it. One thing I always keep in mind during training is slow down and calm down. No doubt disappointments pop up but getting angry doesn't help the situation one bit. Body language plays a huge roll into everything..I had a problem recently pop up where my dog was casting himself, coming down to it-it was my fault on getting too excited back on the line absolutely ruining the casting!! heavy hitters are everywhere but the bond between a dog and his/her handler is something that plays a part..Gotta lovem' though!! Patience and imagination in simplifying things play a huge part to getting things right! 
-That being said---we are now working on steadiness, acts like every retrieve is his last!!!


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

John Lash said:


> Some dogs that are considered "firebreathers" just aren't trained properly...


I wish there was a like button. Automatic commands mean????


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## Austin.Burkdoll (Apr 11, 2017)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> John Lash said:
> 
> 
> > Some dogs that are considered "firebreathers" just aren't trained properly...
> ...


What is the definition of a fire breather then?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> Hate to break the news to anyone, but EVERYONE thinks they have a "fire breather"..and thats ok, whether its because the dog is fast on foot, or highly excitable when training or hunting...if you think you have a fire breather then based on your perception you in fact do..
> 
> Lots of people can give you advice on how to "handle" this type of dog, but to paraphrase a sports metaphor.." ...you can only hope to contain them..."
> 
> ...


Haaaa...So true.Jim


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## archer66 (Jul 23, 2012)

Austin.Burkdoll said:


> What is the definition of a fire breather then?


I'd like to hear some more input on this question as well.....what IS a firebreather?

I haven't been exposed to a lot of dogs so I don't have much to compare to. My first retriever was a golden...very loyal...very eager to please, quick to roll over on his back for a belly rub, loved to retrieve...couldn't get enough but made every retrieve at his own pace...slow going out...slow coming back. 

My most recent dog is a yellow lab...pedigree full of all stars on both sides....his obedience is good, not great, the faults are mine not his, he's very vocal, constantly wanting to go outside and play, very fast on retrieves...I mean blazing fast and I honestly think it's possible he might run himself to death if I let him. In the house he will relax but never out of sight of me and never for very long then he's up and at the door wanting to go out and play. Don't even think of using an excited voice with him unless you want him to come unglued with excitement....which is quite fun lol. He will jump up in my lap and go to sleep for a bit but doesn't stay long. Around other dogs he's tireless....wants to just go and go, play and play. In the duck blind he's noisy and restless....but he watches the sky and he pays attention to the hunters' movements...knows what they mean. I spend a lot of our time in the blind managing the dog with my gun empty and cased....a big part of that is related to my poor training but I don't mind watching my buddies shoot and my dog retrieve.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think a fire breather can be different things to different people. I'm sure there are some. 

I'd say they are dogs that are loved and appreciated by their owners. Often times attributed to having "dog super powers." They thoroughly enjoy the game and their lives. All good things for dog and owners since we all do this for fun. Or try to.

I guess they are the opposite of a "slug."

To a pro they are probably out of control.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

You know you have a fire breather when you are constantly told by knowledgeable "pelted old timers" that you have one. Moreover they offer you big money to buy it.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

After reading this thread, I realize I probably, might have a “fire breather”. She is a sweet looking little, yellow Lab…..not
quite 50 pounds (when wet)…….sometimes more like a 50 pound butterfly….but I digress. 

There appears to be several variations in the definition. After a great deal of analysis, here is what “flamed out”. I should
clarify this by the fact it is based on a symbolic, mental photo. Therefore, the initial thing to do was to find a descriptive
photo. The following comes close. 










To further clarify, I have spent 2+ years building that fire ring. The problem was not having a great deal of skill working
with hot steel and containing the fire at the same time……but I have persevered. Things are going well now and the fire is
warm and fuzzy…..most of the time. However, every once in a while I manage to throw in poorly judged piece of wood and
the sparks will fly.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Having had my own on hands on something like 100 labs the last 6 years I've seen pretty much 1 dog that was a true "fire breather" meaning he had so much drive (and size) that we wondered if he had the biddability to succeed in trials. He was a breath of fresh air for a bunch of guys who were dealing with all manner of backyard bred dogs at the time, but an awful lot to handle. My team mates will remember him, probably by name. I can't but I remember the dog, truly exceptional. 

I have a super high, super fast BLF that literally vibrates in a sit and I still wouldn't call her a "fire breather" - she's not that much different than a lot of other dogs I've seen who just love to work.


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## Bucwilson (Feb 7, 2015)

KwickLabs said:


> After reading this thread, I realize I probably, might have a “fire breather”. She is a sweet looking little, yellow Lab…..not
> quite 50 pounds (when wet)…….sometimes more like a 50 pound butterfly….but I digress.
> 
> There appears to be several variations in the definition. After a great deal of analysis, here is what “flamed out”. I should
> ...




That fire ring is a thing of beauty !!! Well done Sir !


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## archer66 (Jul 23, 2012)

I think my dog is just high energy and half ass trained.....but I love him...he's family and he's a fine duck hunting retriever.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

archer66 said:


> I think my dog is just high energy and half ass trained.....but I love him...he's family and he's a fine duck hunting retriever.


That there is what counts


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Mine is definitely a fire breather per the definitions above. Loves to train, hates to make a mistake, very rarely does she make the same mistake 2x, handles pressure very well, extremely biddable, haven't seen many run blinds better or more stylishly than she does. She just turned 2, got her first master pass last fall at the end of the test season and is making master/finished tests look easy(minus the honoring part...). She's not crazy going to the line or in the holding blind but she is amped, doesn't surge in front, never broke as a working dog. Hoping to run some qualifiers once she gets her MH and HRCH.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Yep, that "fire ring" photo was "plucked" off the Internet to be used as a visual metaphor. I did not think anyone
would refer to it as something else.

To keep this in an RTF format.....A metaphor is a figure of speech that refers, for rhetorical effect, to one thing
by mentioning another thing. It may provide clarity or identify hidden similarities between two ideas (or not).


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

What is "sexy"? Depends. Are you male or female? What is beautiful? Depends upon whether you're into the visual, kinetic, or auditory enjoyment? There is no (in my view) real definition of firebreather. I think I have one... but who knows?

I think it's easy to say one has a high-roller. They lean into everything. They take off on a blind in that same, low gear, kicking up dirt way that they do a mark. They have one thing on their mind every minute of every day... being the first one to (fill in the blank.) Whatever it is, they want to pick it up, carry it at full speed, first out, first back in... take-it-take-it-take-it there's another one out there hurry-up-hurry-up-hurry-up, goddamnit take the damn duck so I can get that next one!!! But they are absolute maniacs for birds. Shoot one and send feathers into the air and they are like junkies mainlining speed. Plus they have tremendous marking ability... maybe because they've learned the geometry of the shortest distance between point A and point B, or because they have some genetically gifted visual abilities or both.

Drive. They are ate up with it.

I am not sure about the fire-breather thing.

Maybe HR + IH/T = FB where HR = high roller, IH/T = inept handler/trainer and FB = firebreather.

Just sayin'


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

1tulip said:


> What is "sexy"? Depends. Are you male or female? What is beautiful? Depends upon whether you're into the visual, kinetic, or auditory enjoyment? There is no (in my view) real definition of firebreather. I think I have one... but who knows?
> 
> I think it's easy to say one has a high-roller. They lean into everything. They take off on a blind in that same, low gear, kicking up dirt way that they do a mark. They have one thing on their mind every minute of every day... being the first one to (fill in the blank.) Whatever it is, they want to pick it up, carry it at full speed, first out, first back in... take-it-take-it-take-it there's another one out there hurry-up-hurry-up-hurry-up, goddamnit take the damn duck so I can get that next one!!! But they are absolute maniacs for birds. Shoot one and send feathers into the air and they are like junkies mainlining speed. Plus they have tremendous marking ability... maybe because they've learned the geometry of the shortest distance between point A and point B, or because they have some genetically gifted visual abilities or both.
> 
> ...


That's my dog...


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Austin.Burkdoll said:


> What is the definition of a fire breather then?


http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=2159

He was the classic example of what I think of when you mention a Type A/Fire Breather.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Here's one I saw run. Had eyes in the back of the head.
http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=759


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

labsforme said:


> Here's one I saw run. Had eyes in the back of the head.
> http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=759


I've heard some 'interesting' stories about how they used to try and 'take the edge off' Cosmo before he ran. Would have loved to see him run. I'll bet it was a sight to behold win, lose, or draw.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

What is a puppy tester?


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> I've heard some 'interesting' stories about how they used to try and 'take the edge off' Cosmo before he ran. Would have loved to see him run. I'll bet it was a sight to behold win, lose, or draw.


I know that at least half the people on this site have had a laid-back Cosmo pup, but when I think "fire-breather," I think of one that a previously successful HRCer upgraded to - and went over his head with. That pup was at least as apt to explode as not, but he sure was fun to watch.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> What is a puppy tester?



The puppy testers are friends of mine who visited and tested the puppies (Volhard test) in my litter. I am not a regular breeder but I understand many breeders do this to get an idea of temperament. That being said, I can't say that I like this test. More valuable were my observations of the puppies in the whelping box which I kept notes on. That is how I identified the firebreathers in the litter.

Now for my definition of a firebreather: An extremely driven dog, EXTREME prey drive, bouncing off the walls quick like Ricochet Rabbit, big desire to run, and difficult to train if the handler is inexperienced. My best success came after I changed my attitude on training obedience. My breeding was Firebreather x Firebreather. I sold one pup as a "bold pup but you can handle it". Said pup had an impressive Derby career and will continue to trial.

Never mind the BS about the dog not being trained. Learn to channel the energy.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=2159
> 
> He was the classic example of what I think of when you mention a Type A/Fire Breather.






Never saw Man in Black run but had a pup by him out of a Chopper bitch, man o man that little dog could run!

Jeff, you have seen Cosmo run? Heard stories and wish I had seen him. I own two Cosmo offspring and trained a couple more. I'm a big fan!!


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

On a side note as it relates to Cosmo offspring, a friend of mine bought a nice bred pup from a litter and when he went to pick it up there was an older dog in the kennel run literally climbing the fence and bouncing off the walls. Dog had gray in his muzzle and was probably at least 6-7 years old. Guess who his sire was?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I've had a fire eater, Hudson. But sometime it's the operator. I used to train with Terry Christopher and Dan Keilty. Hudson would not creep on them at all but with me it was game on. He would growl at Terry. He could hear Dan's voice from 50 yards away and he would start growling.

After this experience I started evaluating to ability to be trained to be steady with both the sire and dam before I bought a puppy.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> Never saw Man in Black run but had a pup by him out of a Chopper bitch, man o man that little dog could run!


I liked him. Really like him as a sire. Fun dog to run in training. I don't know if I would have enjoyed running him in a FT nearly as much.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I liked him. Really like him as a sire. Fun dog to run in training. I don't know if I would have enjoyed running him in a FT nearly as much.


Years ago when Ryan was with Danny, I shot flyers for him one day up in North Dakota. Cash impressed me in every way that day. He ran better, looked better and just carried himself in a way that stood out compared to the other dogs on the truck. Since I was at the flyer station, I didn't get to observe his line manners, but he was sure a nice dog.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Never saw Man in Black run but had a pup by him out of a Chopper bitch, man o man that little dog could run!
> 
> Jeff, you have seen Cosmo run? Heard stories and wish I had seen him. I own two Cosmo offspring and trained a couple more. I'm a big fan!!


Steve, yes. several times. I was gunning quite a bit then. When I asked Jimmy who to breed to ( Midknight Code Breaker x Zip Code daughter ) Spud or Cosmo he said Cosmo. He wasn't titled at the time either. He was on a 20 yard rubber band on the line though 

Jeff


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> I've heard some 'interesting' stories about how they used to try and 'take the edge off' Cosmo before he ran. Would have loved to see him run. I'll bet it was a sight to behold win, lose, or draw.


Cosmo is on top and bottom of Rocket Dog's pedigree. I'm told she was the feistiest pup in the litter. She woulda probably gone to a FT home had she been EIC negative, but she's a carrier. I lucked out. And I'm not saying this to be sarcastic.

I must tell you though. When not training or running she lives in the house and will sleep all day if nothing interesting is happening.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

One thing these "fire breathers" being referenced have in common: "FC" in front of their names. 
So perhaps certain "fire breathers" are desirable (ie, those mentioned) vs the unnamed who are also fire breathers but lack other things - intelligence, biddability and titles.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

1tulip said:


> Cosmo is on top and bottom of Rocket Dog's pedigree. I'm told she was the feistiest pup in the litter. She woulda probably gone to a FT home had she been EIC negative, but she's a carrier. I lucked out. And I'm not saying this to be sarcastic.
> 
> I must tell you though. When not training or running she lives in the house and will sleep all day if nothing interesting is happening.


Just as an FYI many trial people are not concerned about having a carrier female. Many clear studs to breed to. They are concerned about trial results.

Jeff


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> One thing these "fire breathers" being referenced have in common: "FC" in front of their names.
> So perhaps certain "fire breathers" are desirable (ie, those mentioned) vs the unnamed who are also fire breathers but* lack other things - intelligence, biddability and titles*.


Exactly.
just because some dog may be a fire breather, doesn't mean....they are any good.
Many are not.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Firebreathers may also be the ADHD of the dog world also, especially when the owner is not experienced and refuses to go to a pro.
Definition: Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a brain disorder marked by an ongoing pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity that interferes with functioning or development and lack of focus. They are bred just too high, and people linebreeding on that trait intensifies the trait and not the focus of a good dog.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Firebreathers may also be the ADHD of the dog world also, especially when the owner is not experienced and refuses to go to a pro.
> Definition: Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a brain disorder marked by an ongoing pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity *that interferes with functioning or development and lack of focus.* They are bred just too high, and people linebreeding on that trait intensifies the trait and not the focus of a good dog.


And this is where the training element comes in... and why beginning when they're young and their brains are very plastic that makes the difference. To teach them to focus on what matters and ignore what doesn't. To whit... the main focus should be on their handler and what dog and handler do together.

ADHD is real, but you have to remember that it has some evolutionary purpose. So since we're making an analogy between people and dogs, let me offer an observation from my 45 year career in nursing and nursing education: The nurses who make the BEST members of a high tier ED staff have ADHD to some degree or another. They can "focus" on two trauma bays during a mass casualty at the same time and keep everything organized in their heads. Seeing the chest tube go in, blood on the floor, what the patient's blood type is, how many liters of saline have gone in, when the blood bank will be sending the next units of packed cells up, which anesthesiologist is on second call, where the families of both patients are, does momma have her oldest son at her side at this point and so on. The main thing is... they can keep it straight. They are "distracted" but not. And I wanta tell you, these nurses (and their professors) did not enjoy their time in school. 

So, ADHD isn't a bad thing. It just requires that a dog or human learns to manage and deal with their sensory input.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

The ADHD dog will be absolutely bird crazy to the point of ignoring and tuning everything else out completely including handler, stick, collar or anything that's not that flyer in front of them at that moment!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

1tulip said:


> ADHD is real, but you have to remember that it has some evolutionary purpose. So since we're making an analogy between people and dogs, let me offer an observation from my 45 year career in nursing and nursing education: The nurses who make the BEST members of a high tier ED staff have ADHD to some degree or another. They can "focus" on two trauma bays during a mass casualty at the same time and keep everything organized in their heads. Seeing the chest tube go in, blood on the floor, what the patient's blood type is, how many liters of saline have gone in, when the blood bank will be sending the next units of packed cells up, which anesthesiologist is on second call, where the families of both patients are, does momma have her oldest son at her side at this point and so on. The main thing is... they can keep it straight. They are "distracted" but not. And I wanta tell you, these nurses (and their professors) did not enjoy their time in school.


Not my experience at all. I worked nights by myself for years, crossmatching blood, doing cbcs and chemistries, coags all at the same time while answering phones and sending out accurate results which requires focus. No room for ADHD there. I am a blood bank specialist, who also worked at a regional blood center servicing 32 hospitals troubleshooting transfusion problems, and again, by myself. All the specialists were very methodical.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm not sure that quite captures what I'm talking about. The competence to handle chaos in life-threatening situations doesn't belong to ADHD practitioners alone. But I've known several of these ADHD individuals over the years (and they have all been adrenaline junkies) and I guess I'm saying they process what's before them very differently. But somehow they organize it in their heads.

But... stipulating that you and Breck are right about "fire-breathers", then to describe any of the titled dogs in that way is incorrect. If they absolutely canNOT tolerate any delayed gratification (OK... I'll get the flier after I pick up the thing to which I'm being directed) then there are no titled fire-breathers.

Going back to the OP... should we drop the Fire-breather designation? What would be a more accurate synonym that gets to the gist of the question? High-roller? Harder/tougher dog? What set of qualities make these dogs (name to be determined) unsuitable for the amateur, particularly or especially one who is new and approaching the young dog without a lot of help?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

OK, so you have known "several" adrenaline junkies and it's not "ALL" the high tier ER staff who you BTW have insulted. 

I'm not concerned about finding a word for it. Good trainers can take these dogs, wait for them to mature, teach them to focus, and they may or have become field champions. Amateurs, not so much.. If nothing can be done with them they are washed. For one thing is the amateurs in HT want to run them young, and if anything jacks them up is running young (Ammo was an exception). When we had only FT the dogs weren't run that young. Someone may know the stats but didn't Corky have hundreds of fliers shot for him? and of course there were all the brutal tools back then. The best thing an amateur can do if he has a firebreathing, paw stomping, creeping or vocal pup is take it to a pro right away or sell it to someone who knows what to do.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Whoa! *Full stop!* In what way have I insulted anyone? I specifically stated that ADHD can be an _asset_. My whole point! More specifically, my daughter is a nurse, my sister one also, who have gravitated to ER, are diagnosed with ADHD and many of their peers are as well and it works great in that setting. And there is nothing wrong with being an adrenaline junkie, for heaven's sake. We need them. And the ER nurses to whom I refer would slit their wrists if they had to work in a rehab setting. 

ADHD is NOT a handicap. 
I am not using the term in any way that is derogatory. And ADHD learners do not absorb new information in the same way an average student does, they don't synthesize information the same way. I believe I can speak as something as an authority on this. Full neuropsychometric testing when my daughter was 6 years old. We've lived with it for over 30 years. I've taught students like this... many who were ER techs, a retired Highway Patrol Officer, combat veterans, one was a UDT operator...in classroom and clinical. No. They learn differently. But they get it in ways that others cannot.

_And back to the thread._.. my point is, since it can be an asset in people, (if we are developing an analogy here ) it could also be for retrievers. 

THAT IS THE ONLY POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE. No more, no less.

I take your point about sending a high roller to a pro and not running them young. Therein, you made my point. Amateurs aren't breeding these dogs. And they are unlikely to sell a dog because they don't know what to do with it in the field. BUT... some amateurs learn as they go and stay with their dogs. _And I believe... that was what the OP was asking about._


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's crystal clear now.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Easy button please..
> Lazy aerospace toolmaker regards,,
> 
> Gooser
> .


. 
New aero option for $$$ in Colorado Springs 
http://sierracompletions.com/AboutUs


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Breck said:


> The ADHD dog will be absolutely bird crazy to the point of ignoring and tuning everything else out completely including handler, stick, collar or anything that's not that flyer in front of them at that moment!


This can and does happen in a range of behavior from retrieving to aggression to outright OCD behavior... If you pump enough endorphins into that dog's system you would have to hit them with a car to distract them. 

That's why we put ourselves in the back of the dog's mind AWAY from the thing they zone out on, then bring it back into the environment slowly... That's the one sentence summary of Randy working on noise/manners.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything..


Slow is smooth - smooth is fast


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## cjaz (Jan 28, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> The best thing an amateur can do if he has a firebreathing, paw stomping, creeping or vocal pup is take it to a pro right away or sell it to someone who knows what to do.



If i had to guess, you use a pro to train your dogs. As a newcomer to this sport I have found that many people that use pros don't think that amateurs can train dogs so they are really quick to you say you have use a pro. I've personally heard it a few times. Nancy, if it makes you feel better to convince yourself that amateurs can't train high drive dogs that's fine. Do what you have to do. I don't agree with lumping all amateurs together and decreeing that they have to use a pro to train a high drive dog. The FT game is hard enough for amateurs as it is without people trying to discourage them.

I think that if you can train a fire breathing, paw stomping, creeping or vocal pup then you are going to learn a lot and be better for it. Like accomplishing anything difficult, it will be very rewarding. Go Amateurs! Don't let someone on the internet that's never met you or your dog tell you that you can't do it.


Chris


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think most dogs that run FT that are successful are high drive. We are talking about much more than high drive.


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## cjaz (Jan 28, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think most dogs that run FT that are successful are high drive. We are talking about much more than high drive.


No we aren't talking about much more than high drive. Not according to MY definition of high drive. Sorry, I'm just not a big fan of the term "fire breather". And the point is that amateurs can do it. You don't have to believe it. i'm not trying to convince you. You have made it abundantly clear that you think it's a pro's job.


chris


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Having some experience trying to train a first dog who was, shall we say, episodically over-motivated, as a first dog no less, I would say the following. 

First, EVERYTHING is counter-intuitive with these types of dogs. If you are not careful, or if you were like me and just plain ignorant, these dogs sucker you with their drive. You let them move around a little in because they just want the bird so bad, and they look so good running 90 MPH out there to it. Then you go to your first JH test and WOW WHO IS THIS DOG PULLING ME TO THE LINE???? For clarity, my dog was right at 2 when he ran his first. 

Second, the most important thing to this dog is the retrieve, period. You can collar, heeling stick, yell, lay on hands, and (I suspect) use all sorts of medieval torture techniques on him, and as long as he ends up getting the bird he Just. Does. Not. Care. For those of you who will say I just did not do it right, I promise I challenged him. His drive to get the bird just trumps anything you could do to him in good conscience. 

So, the best thing you can do for this dog is not let him have the retrieve, and under no circumstances should a dog like this retrieve anywhere near all the marks he sees. Obedience needs to be at an insanely high standard, to the point where you may not like taking him in public because others get uncomfortable when you have to enforce your standard. 

You also have to determine what you will live with. My dog stomps his feet and always will, but I choose to live with it to keep his butt on the ground. 

Even with all that, I would not give anything for having had this dog as a first dog. He made me really get up the learning curve and seek out help, which led me to some really good people. About the only things I did right were realizing that he was fairly talented and that I needed a lot of help getting it out of him. He could also bounce back from my mistakes from inexperience pretty easily, so that whole "that didn't hurt thing is a curse and a blessing. And he certainly keeps me on my toes. As you might imagine, blinds can be an adventure with him too.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

You've hit on the problem with the oft given advice to newcomers: "look for field titles in the pedigree," when "look at the dogs behind the titles in the pedigree" would much better serve.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

If you are that inexperienced, as I was, you don't know enough to know the difference. Plus, puppies fool you. My wife reminds me every so often that I told her I was concerned that the pup who turned into the dog described in my earlier post was a slug, but when he saw his first live duck it was game time. It was like a switch flipped and God revealed to that dog why he was put on this earth. 

Yes, it was very frustrating at times that I uncovered situations where I had no idea how I got there or what to do to get out. Very frustrating indeed. But it has happened to me in other situations like that where I was trying to learn something, so I at least knew to go find somebody that did know. This dog ended up teaching me a whole lot more than I taught him for sure. And about more than just how to train dogs, but that's another story that nobody wants to hear or read. 

I ended up having to send him to a good trainer because of a change in my job situation, and he has flourished even with my admittedly weak foundation. He has participated in the last two Master Nationals, passing last year, and has qualified again this year, so he's doing ok. I do wonder sometimes what this dog could have been if he wasn't my first, but then I remind myself that I got this dog to pick up a few birds for me in my new hobby of duck hunting. He has surpassed my wildest dreams - but I limited what I thought he could do because I allowed for my inexperience.

I see your logic in advising a trainer to choose a dog that fits their experience, but that depends on an accurate assessment of your own experience level and, if you are picking a pup, an assumption that you know exactly what you are getting. Refer to my comments earlier about mine being a slug. For that matter, my dog was a $300 "paper dog" (I did know the sire hunted) and look how he turned out. 

Also, how do you get better if you are not challenged? I fear that my next dog is going to be the polar opposite of this one, and I am going to have to learn how to train that type of dog - but that's what fascinates me about this whole process. How do you train this dog at your side to get the best out of him?

Do I wish that this dog was a little more pliable? YES. We have had many (one-sided) conversations about how much better off he would be if he just calmed down a little and did what he was asked. But I would not take anything for the journey I have taken with this dog. If nothing else, he has made me comfortable being humiliated in front of large groups of people. 



MooseGooser said:


> I think you owe it to yourself.. to find a dog that fits your experience level. Not a dog that comes from a long list of hard charging dogs.. and the reason I say this.. is life is too short.. Why would you want a dog like this,, and need to put yourself thru the inevitable frustration,,,BECAUSE ,,, OF YOUR INEXPERIECE..


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> If you are that inexperienced, as I was, you don't know enough to know the difference. Plus, puppies fool you. My wife reminds me every so often that I told her I was concerned that the pup who turned into the dog described in my earlier post was a slug, but when he saw his first live duck it was game time. It was like a switch flipped and God revealed to that dog why he was put on this earth.
> 
> Yes, it was very frustrating at times that I uncovered situations where I had no idea how I got there or what to do to get out. Very frustrating indeed. But it has happened to me in other situations like that where I was trying to learn something, so I at least knew to go find somebody that did know. This dog ended up teaching me a whole lot more than I taught him for sure. And about more than just how to train dogs, but that's another story that nobody wants to hear or read.
> 
> ...


One outstanding post!


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

You live by the sword you die by the sword. Want to pick up your game teach such a dog without an e-collar..only a riding crop and wiffle bat. I was not a rookie but I did that to myself to make my abilities, skill and knowledge better. Forces you to think, revise, adjust. Other "programs" are based on making "truck dogs" which may not fit "your" dog. Four straight years of recorded/detailed training records. trialing and testing/hunting. I have my own program based on the old boys of the 40s-50s-60s-70s. Observe, listen , learn , select. The "why" must always be evaluated..the dog and yours. 

From a previous dog I learned the value of steadiness when jump shooting on the last day of duck season , cold, light snow, ice my dog could not restrain himself on a sneak when hearing ducks, he charged ahead and a flock of over 30 went up before I could get a shot. All my dogs after 1983 have to be steady off lead, NO e-collar. My dogs , my choice.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Tears are in my eyes when I watch both these videos..... and It aint from laughter..
> 
> And PLEASE don't say anything about the fine folks with me... None of it was their responsibility,,and quite frankly,, they knew comments/ suggestions wouldn't do any good..
> 
> It took someone to pull me aside,,,and tell/ convey to me. "If you really want to have ANY sort of success in this dog training stuff,,, EVERYTHING,,about YOU,,MUST change" Then very patiently showed me the steps.... I OWE that person...






Good for you Gooser, and I really like that dog!! In spite of some of the obvious issues that you are well aware of you still did a nice job with her considering the point you were at in your doggy education.


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Michael, in general I think your self assessment is on the spot. I do think your written word though is to harsh. My first dog, Hensley, was very head strong. To him my job was to drop him off on Friday and pick him up on Sunday. Once, he went from the down position in the holding blind, with no transition, jumped completely over the holding blind then waited for me on the material. On one hand he was out of control on the other he knew the rules. Our fatal flaw was sticking on the LAST bird in the 4th series...the result of to much direct pressure inappropriately applied. 

So, this is what Hensley taught me: working hard is not as good as working smart, using direct pressure rarely works as good as indirect pressure, having high standards is essential, know what you are training on that day and stuck to it...run the dog not the setup, nothing can replace a solid foundation, 80% of t e teams success happens on the mat, the greatest quality a dog can have is bidability which more then anything else compensates for the humans mistakes, my ability to read my dog gives me a greater ability to respond to what is going on, nothing but nothing can replace experience and time on line.

Don't be so hard on yourself. We have all been through your experience. Try to learn something, one thing, new each day. Your OK and so is your dog.

Ronan Bill


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

This thread is really illuminating and helpful. I appreciate folks' experiences and reflections.


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