# Breeding 2 Chocolate Labs and getting black pups



## Razor Labs (Jan 9, 2011)

Hello,

Can anyone tell me if they have ever had or know of someone breeding 2 chocolate labs that don't carry yellow and have black pups?

I thought breeding 2 chcocolates would get you all chocolates

Thanks


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

I believe the only time that is a guarantee is Yellow to Yellow always produces Yellow.

Janet


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

You can figure out the color match ups with this chart:

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Might need to DNA test the pups and parents...Although it CAN happen it is statistically very, very rare. You will see that the Blue Knight color chart does not list black pups out of two chocolates as a possibility.

Best to test parents and pups and be sure.

Meredith


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Two chocolates should never produce black, they could produce yellow if both parents are yellow factored, but not black. If a black is supposedly coming from a choc x choc breeding, I'd request a paternity test


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

I know somebody down here that "habitually" got mixed litters in her chocolate x chocolate litters...at least that's what they were supposed to be...I still doubt parentage on those, esp when an outside choc bitch was bred to the "same" choc stud, it was an all chocolate litter.


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

The only time I got a black pup out of two chocolates was when I did an AI when the choc bitch was very early in her cycle(split heat) with another black dog. Vet told me it was very unlikely for the breeding to take. Went back home, a week later when bitch peaks, she is bred to chocolate male as the other black male was no longer available. 10 pups whelped, 9 chocolate and one black. The sole black pup was the only sired by the first male. 

Never do that again.....


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Genetic are never that cut and dry, mutations can happen dogs.There have indeed been black dogs produced Out of two yellow parents with t genetic test results to prove it. I believe the odds are something like 1/450000. But it happens just as mosaics and brindled labs happen. As for two chocolates throwing a black pup yes it could happen still I'd test to make sure t dog was black and not a really dark chocoLate, then parental test. Still Genes can get all rearranged there's more to genetics than what is taught in those color charts. Biology is never always just almost always


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## trinitylabs (Feb 13, 2006)

A chocolate to chocolate breeding will always produce all chocolate puppies. The reason is simple, chocolate is a recessive gene and black is dominant. For a dog to be chocolate they carry two recessive genes, no dominants. That means they will only have a recessive to throw when they are bred.


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## Schmemdog (Mar 30, 2010)

trinitylabs said:


> A chocolate to chocolate breeding will always produce all chocolate puppies. The reason is simple, chocolate is a recessive gene and black is dominant. For a dog to be chocolate they carry two recessive genes, no dominants. That means they will only have a recessive to throw when they are bred.


Or they can produce Yellow. You breed bbEe x bbEe, you likely get chocolates (bbEE or bbEe) or dudleys (bbee). No black though, you'd have to have at least one dominant black gene in the parents to get black. Yellow and chocolate can make black though- bbEe (chocolate) x BBee (yellow) = BbEe (black) and/or Bbee (yellow).


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

THIS IS AN EXCERPT from the following website...
http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Sable 

Black Puppies Produced from Two Yellow Parents?...Or From Two Chocolate Parents?..."Impossible!" You Say?...Maybe Not!...

Geneticists recognize that there are two gene loci that are capable of controlling production of the yellow color in the dog. In Labradors, homozygous "e" at the Extension loci is considered the predominant genotype for producing yellow. However, in some other breeds, homozygous "a y " at the Agouti loci is recognized as being responsible for producing the yellow (tan/sable) color in dogs with the wild-type (E+) Mc1r, such as in the Basenji, Collie, Dachshund, etc.

The yellow (buff) color of the Cocker Spaniel was once believed only to be determined by homozygous "e" just as in the Labrador. Interestingly, however, upon occasion when two yellow Cocker Spaniels are bred, a black puppy will be produced. This observation was first made by Clarence Little in 1957 and later confirmed by Burns and Fraser in 1966. Because these test breedings were controlled studies, the possibility of mismating as an explanation was ruled out and a new hypothesis was postulated: There are two kinds of "yellow" Cocker Spaniels, an A s A s B_ee Cocker Spaniel that is usually buff-colored and an a y a y B_E+E+ Cocker Spaniel that is usually sable-colored. When these genotypes are crossed, one possible resulting genotype of the offspring will be A s a y B_E+e: a black Cocker Spaniel!

This scenario may not be limited to the Cocker Spaniel breed. Occasionally, black puppies are produced from yellow Lab X yellow Lab crosses. Some Lab breeders immediately cry "mismating", however, mismating is clearly not the only explanation since many times mismating is ruled-out by virtue of circumstance (ie. the bitch was exposed only to the intended stud and there was no opportunity for breeding to occur with any other male). In addition to what has been observed for the Cocker Spaniel, there may be additional indications supporting this theory. One author has suggested that the way to distinguish between a homozygous "e" yellow and a homozygous "a y " yellow is to examine the whiskers: If the whiskers are cream or straw colored the dog is homozygous "e", if the whiskers are black then the dog is homozygous "a y " (refer to: "Canine Color Genetics" by Sue Ann Bowling).

It is possible that like the Cocker Spaniel breed, the Labrador has two genotypic "kinds" of yellow dog: one that is homozygous "e" (more common) and one that is homozygous "a y " (less common) with the wild-type Mc1r (E+). As such, crossing these two different genotypic types of yellow Lab could produce an occasional black puppy from two yellow parents. This may also explain why occasionally a black puppy is whelped in litters from a chocolate to chocolate cross. It is also conceivable that some of these a y a y Labs, especially if they are homozygous "C" at the C locus may appear to be chocolates rather than yellows (albeit with a more red-tone than a brown tone). As such, crossing of one of these chocolate-appearing yellow Labs with a true chococlate would produce A s a y BbEE+: a black Lab.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

However, although I understand the theory I have never heard of it happening to anyone I know.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

This isn't the same thing, but, I know of a breeding between a choco and a yellow.

Hawkeye's Viking when bred to a local chocolate bitch produced an all black litter. I don't know the genetics involved but I had heard of something like this. I remember talking to the breeder while the pups were still in the oven. He said the stars had all aligned in a row for Viking and his bitch with the right genes in the right places so the litter would be black but all pups in the litter able to throw all three colors. Strange but true.

If a choco and a yellow, why not a choco and a choco? There might be a reason, but I don't swear to anything when it comes to breeding. I know it's not always straight dominent and recessives.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Chocolate and yellow throw black when bred together, unless they have the color factor of the opposite mate, that's pretty straight forward and predictable. All the pups will be black with yellow and chocolate factor. I had a male from a choc to yellow, the litter was half black, half chocolate, because the yellow dam carried chocolate but the chocolate stud didn't carry yellow. Chocolate to chocolate producing black pups is a whole different ball game statistically and I'd be testing the pups to be sure the sire is who it is supposed to be.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Cedarswamp said:


> I know somebody down here that "habitually" got mixed litters in her chocolate x chocolate litters...at least that's what they were supposed to be...I still doubt parentage on those, esp when an outside choc bitch was bred to the "same" choc stud, it was an all chocolate litter.


DO NOT let Adam read this thread


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

Erin's Edge would be the one to ask, she's been bringing chocolate stock for ... well a very long time. since 1980. 
If this freak show was possible she'd know


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Purpledawg said:


> Erin's Edge would be the one to ask, she's been bringing chocolate stock for ... well a very long time. since 1980.
> If this freak show was possible she'd know


Well, at least they are black, it would really be a freak show if they came out silver.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

I should state, despite my above post, anytime parentage comes into question a good breeder will be chompin at the bit to know what is truly going on. DNA and color genotype tests on everybody would be the first step.


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

Danielle, at least on this one, he agrees that it's questionable paternity, esp since you know who I'm referring to


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

mountaindogs said:


> However, although I understand the theory I have never heard of it happening to anyone I know.


I know of one black pup from a yellow to yellow, the guy was getting a lot of flack from others, mutt, questionable parentage etc. So he had the pup genetically tested, which was a big expense at the time, came back that yes the pup was out of those 2 yellow dogs. The whole experience left a bad taste in the owners mouth so much so he retired from the games, and only hunts.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> Well, at least they are black, it would really be a freak show if they came out silver.


If the genetics are right, they'd come out charcoal, black dog with silver dilution gene, probably more likely with a yellow to chocolate breeding, as the silver dilution gene is usually over a chocolate coat. If the dilution gene is indeed in the Lab, light yellow and light chocolates, would be prone more to carry it. Just think of the marketing campaigne we can make up once we patten them


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> If the genetics are right, they'd come out charcoal, black dog with silver dilution gene, probably more likely with a yellow to chocolate breeding, as the silver dilution gene is usually over a chocolate coat. If the dilution gene is indeed in the Lab, light yellow and light chocolates, would be prone more to carry it. Just think of the marketing campaigne we can make up once we patten them


It was a joke, "silver" supposedly being a shade variation of chocolate and (stupidly) registered as such by the AKC when silvers made their mysterious debut, unfortunately before the advent of useful DNA testing. The silver saga has been done to death on here as many of the old guard would know, but I guess RTF has lost its sense of humor along with much else of value.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Rain maker- watch what you say about those Silver ones ,I've got a rescued one that I'm working with and he is a fire breather at supper time, and seems to have just what K2 is needing ,O never mind he plants land mines not finds them .


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Shawn White said:


> Rain maker- watch what you say about those Silver ones ,I've got a rescued one that I'm working with and he is a fire breather at supper time, and seems to have just what K2 is needing ,O never mind he plants land mines not finds them .


Shawn, I don't contest that some silvers have field ability and are perfectly fine dogs loved by their owners, they've been bred with Labs long enough now, ;-). It's the origins I doubt, that's all. And their reason for being in the first place.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> It was a joke, "silver" supposedly being a shade variation of chocolate and (stupidly) registered as such by the AKC when silvers made their mysterious debut, unfortunately before the advent of useful DNA testing. The silver saga has been done to death on here as many of the old guard would know, but I guess RTF has lost its sense of humor along with much else of value.


 LOL, I know it's a joke, I just continued it, with marketing and the correct silver color definition, got to have the correct use of colorful names after all  I must've forgot to use smilies  Where-ever the gene came from it's in now, can't do much about em, but train em


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

You sounded entirely too serious with all the "dilution" folderol, .


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