# Randy help with barking dog-videos



## Wayne Nutt

Randy, We have a new member in our training group who has a very vocal dog. We tried some of the things I have read on fixing this problem. We did a number of videos trying different corrections. In this process the ecollar was not used and very little heeling stick.

First video, hand thrown bumper and picking up bumper when dog was vocal. We tried this a number of times with no improvement.
https://youtu.be/LDRHGQnw94s

Second video, sitting and trying to wait dog out. Video shortened but sat there for a long time and barking seemed to get worse.
https://youtu.be/9OVg_hWqr8c

Video three, bumper in mouth, retrieve. This went well.
https://youtu.be/lBynGyw01LQ

Video four, using ducks.
https://youtu.be/P6R-6XRNRCY

We would like any suggestions or help you can give.
The owner is a member here and he can chip in to give any background he may have to offer.


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## bshaf

Would the Figure 8 work... Check out the instructions on Hunt Smith. He wouldn't be able to get the bumper with the figure 8 on but he won't bark with it on. You could try putting him on a stake out and watching other dogs run and when he gets vocal, put the figure 8 on. Take it off when he quits yipping. The figure was useful in cutting out a couple unwanted behaviors in my pup. Just a thought.


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## Terry Marshall

Hi Wayne
You say dog so I assume this is no puppy. I have seen some improvement in pups using some of the above but little to none in adult dogs. It is my opinion that vocalness is a genetic trait and passed down from mon or dad. I have 5 pups in my kennel that are out of two different litters, all five are NON VOCAL, and their parents are as well. Is the dog chocolate?


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## Thomas D

Terry Marshall said:


> Hi Wayne
> You say dog so I assume this is no puppy. I have seen some improvement in pups using some of the above but little to none in adult dogs. It is my opinion that vocalness is a genetic trait and passed down from mon or dad. I have 5 pups in my kennel that are out of two different litters, all five are NON VOCAL, and their parents are as well. Is the dog chocolate?


I don't believe that.


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## wetdog

Wayne, I know you asked for Randy's help, but I will let you know what worked for me. I have a dog that was very similar to the one in your video. The noise actually started at the truck, continued into the holding blind and on the line. I tried everything I knew of like pinching the muzzle or nicking with the collar with a quiet command. I attended a Mike Lardy seminar as a handler with the goal of improving line manners. Anyway, Mike hit upon the same thing as your video 3, bumper in mouth, except we put the bumper in her mouth at the truck and she kept it in mouth until the send. After the seminar, I did not train with a group for about a month. I used a remote launcher and did the bumper in mouth for that month. I then took the bumper out and continued the remote launcher while training alone and if there was the slightest noise, back to the truck and repeat the whole process until she was quiet. After I had a solid week of no noise, we returned to the training group. I have had almost no problems since (for 3 years) and a nick with the collar and a "quiet" will get compliance. So I would say keep with the bumper in mouth and start with minimal excitement.


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## Randy Bohn

I'd like to see a video or 2 of dog getting out of the truck and some other obedience drills away from the field..

Terry...99 out of 100 owners think their dogs are genetically cursed with noise but they'd be wrong...owners make the dogs noisy...


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## Wayne Nutt

Randy ok. I will ask if he can come to my house soon and do some videos.


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## Sharon Potter

bshaf said:


> Would the Figure 8 work... Check out the instructions on Hunt Smith. He wouldn't be able to get the bumper with the figure 8 on but he won't bark with it on. You could try putting him on a stake out and watching other dogs run and when he gets vocal, put the figure 8 on. Take it off when he quits yipping. The figure was useful in cutting out a couple unwanted behaviors in my pup. Just a thought.


The figure 8 works for some things, but not all that well for this. The dog can still bark....just makes it uncomfortable to do so, and with the excitement level, it's really not that helpful. The bumper in the mouth works a lot better and is easier on the dog. And even better, a *very* high standard of obedience and routine, starting from the truck and all the way to the line.


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## Terry Marshall

Hi Wayne
I mis read your post and interpreted it to be an incessant barking dog in the kennel, after watching your videos (DAH) I see what the problem is. I have seen this many times from high intensity retriever dogs, their desire to retrieve out shines their level of obedience. The bumper in the mouth works well, I have even used items like gloves or sticks. When you leave the truck to the first holding blind an orange bumper may be very obvious to bystanders and some might complain to the marshal. I'm not sure what the rule book says, and it's probably cool but why test it. Someone might call it a training devise???? In any event the use of a brown cotton glove will do the same thing, it should become his best buddy, like a puppy carrying around his favorite toy.
This concept will work well on a dog that freezes as well.
The thread from WETDOG is right on.
Let us know if this works


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## bshaf

Sharon, thanks for the additional information on the figure 8 and why holding the bumper works better for this. Interested to see what actually works for this dog.


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## Randy Bohn

My guess (for now) is the reason the dog is noisy is in the 2nd video....just sent a dog home last weekend that was a noisy one....(sent home quiet) not even close to the video dog BUT the reason for noise might be the same...Randy


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## Dan Storts

Randy Bohn said:


> I'd like to see a video or 2 of dog getting out of the truck and some other obedience drills away from the field..
> 
> Terry...99 out of 100 owners think their dogs are genetically cursed with noise but they'd be wrong...owners make the dogs noisy...


Exactly or the hands which they may have been in.


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## Wayne Nutt

Randy, The owner is out of town on business all this week. Will have to wait until Sat to get additional videos.


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## MurreyBoy

Hi everyone
Sorry for the delay in responding I am the owner of the dog in the video. As Wayne mentioned I’m out of town, so I won’t be able to get any video of obedience work tell this weekend. As you can see the barking in video it’s pretty bad. It has been the one main issue I have not been able to overcome with him. I have never let him retrieve if he barks not even as a pup. He really didn’t start barking at the line tell later with wingers, birds, and new places.

As a pup he was vocal, I live in a neighborhood so I had to address this issue from the start, not letting him out of the crate or kennel while barking or whining. I did using a bark collar. Those areas have improved greatly, but the barking at the line is still a big problem. He started it with dead ducks and the only solution that I found was denying him the retrieve by getting it myself. This was also how I had to introduce wingers as well. Holding the bumper works well to. 

I try to maintain high obedience standard always sitting and waiting while the gate to kennel is open and then letting him leave only once told, same for door in and out of the house. Unloading from the truck box he has to wait for me to signal for him to come out and then I pick him up and set him on ground where he then has to sit and wait for the next command. 

I have only trained with a group four or five times so he has little experience with groups and the excitement that they bring and that is on me well all of its on me as I’m his trainer. During the training that these videos were filmed I had him staked out at one point where he could see the flyer being shot and he did not bark or whine, he just sat there watching and looking over at me. He could not see the line just the station and the retrieve. Felt that was worth noting.

I look forward to hearing any advice on how to correct, I have no misconceptions I know there are no easy fixes for this. Will be happy to answer any question that y’all may have. 
Thank you,


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## DL

Does he bark with fun bumpers? I'm just curious. Watching the videos makes me want to wear him out a little with some fun bumpers. I'm not suggesting it because I have no business making suggestions.


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## Breck

Randy will address most of what you need to do. 
I will add you could learn about every move you make should communicate something to the dog. If you're not communicating anything don't move. Be consistent with your movements, no waste movements. In video an example is how you handle stick. Just leave in left hand between thumb and hand pointing rear ward and upward. From here locked and loaded, just need flick if wrist. Knife hand still free to send dog without stick changing hands. 
Search Web for and watch videos of Tomb of the Unknown Soldier changing of the guard ceremony. Every move with purpose.


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## Cass

I see you have used a bark collar.... why do you not use one at the line when training? If he understands the bark collar corrections then maybe it could be used. Running the dog before he works and then putting the bark collar on him before he goes to the line may be what he needs. My dog is not vocal, but has lots of drive and energy so I always let him run around and blow off steam for 15 or 20 minutes before training (especially if there are other dogs, works great for all them). Any time I do not and he hasn't been out for a day or 2 he's squirrely. I had him doing drills yesterday morning after I got off a night shift. I worked 72 hours in the last 7 days so have not had him out training. Because I was tired (should have skipped training just felt bad that he had been cooped up in the house all week) I didn't run him first. When we starting working he was spinning on me when being sent and other stupid looking quirks lol. I called it a day. Today we are heading out to exercise then will be training. I am certain I will have a dog with a brain today.


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## Terry Marshall

I still think your problem is genetic, I would love to hear Randy's FIX and the success story, Please advise


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## Jeb Becker

To the owner i had very noisy dog and drove from Houston to SC to take my dog and then Houston to PA to pick him from Randy.I hate driving but having a quiet dog is priceless,wish i would have done it sooner.Randy and his wife are a class act and the hardest working people i have ever met .jeb becker 7133044558.By the way my dogs litter mate was sold twice due to noise that was thought to be genetic.Good luck no matter your decision.


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## Wayne Nutt

Dang, we got some good videos this morning. But my three-four month old PC won't start. Therefore, I can't up load the videos. I have an annual contract with Best Buy for technical support. So off to see them tomorrow after church.
I must say that things were much better today. He did well on several retrieves as long as he had a bird in his mouth.


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## Terry Marshall

GNSPEED said:


> To the owner i had very noisy dog and drove from Houston to SC to take my dog and then Houston to PA to pick him from Randy.I hate driving but having a quiet dog is priceless,wish i would have done it sooner.Randy and his wife are a class act and the hardest working people i have ever met .jeb becker 7133044558.By the way my dogs litter mate was sold twice due to noise that was thought to be genetic.Good luck no matter your decision.


That's exciting and I hope to hear Randy's solution, I too had a situation with a Chubby Mac (female) dog that was wonderful on the line and in the blind, and a friend had a brother from a different litter (male) that drove him to the point of NO HUNTING due to being so vocal. One difference I remember is my girl was my inside dog and his was a kennel dog???


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## Wayne Nutt

Randy, New videos. It will take me a while to get them loaded.
Coming off truck at ranch hq after about 2 hour ride:
https://youtu.be/bSILJShGPik

Doing OB after airing:
https://youtu.be/VveIeOYBuSI

First retrieve with bumper in mouth, wz duck with no pop
https://youtu.be/q_Ul5zWClQ8

With duck in mouth and pop
https://youtu.be/hGY_Ju3y74g

Barking returns when not holding something in mouth.
https://youtu.be/AmwP5zInsVU


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## Randy Bohn

ok, so where do you want to start because there are so many things to discuss....
another video that you could take is of the dog at a remote sit without the owner nearby watching marks being thrown....sit stay walk away and have your gun shoot and throw, then walk up to send the dog....

Where do you want to start?? which videos? Randy


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## Wayne Nutt

I guess with no. 1


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## Randy Bohn

Bottom line your obedience isn't where it should be...by the truck...basic heeling drills...recalls...etc...
in the field...somewhere along the line you guys promoted noise by grey areas...when you try waiting the dog out on line to make noise go away make sure you win, if not the result is more noise...
Now what?? Higher standards in the yard first...use a tab cord for control because you have none....lose the whip because it's not helping...not even close...Randy


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## Todd Caswell

Every thing I saw was sloppy ( no offence to the owner) from getting out of the box to using the stick to basic healing drills, just goes to show that most people THINK there OB is top notch when in reality it isn't even close to that.. Every thing u see so far is man made...


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## Pete

This is what you could do about the box. Instead of standing in front of it before you let her out,,work her so you can turn your back on her and walk away 10 or 15 yards. Then sit down and let her watch you from the box,until she can relax. Also you told her to sit and when you moved she got up and you let it slide. that shown on video 1

Pete


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## Randy Bohn

videos i'd like to see....
dog on honor and handler away from dog....
handler doing obedience around holding blind and at the same time guns going off in the field....Randy

Believe it or not obedience will help your noise problem...Randy


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## Wayne Nutt

Randy thank you. I'm sure the owner will see this. When he comes out next we'll work on the things you mentioned.


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## MurreyBoy

Thank you Wayne for taking and posting the videos. Randy, I might be able to meet with Wayne this weekend but most likely will be next weekend before we can get the videos you requested. I can see from the videos the obedience that I thought I had in the yard is NOT carrying over to the field or is just not there. What do I need to due this week, specific obedience drills etc.? I will be buying a tab (prong) collar at lunch (I have just been using a choke chain up tell now). I have a video camera too and can try and post obedience videos during the week if needed. Thanks again for all the help.


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## MurreyBoy

Thanks again for all the comments, we never meant to offend anyone else by calling on Randy directly. But all the PMs I’m getting from other people commenting on how much Randy helped them with their vocal dog tell me he’s the way to go. 

In the obedience videos I was trying not to correct the dog only tapping when he was completely not focused. His jumping caught me off guard as he hasn’t done that since he was puppy. I never meant for it to be an obedience session thought it was supposed to be more of a gauge and clearly we need some work. 

When we are in the prior videos Wayne asked me not to correct the dog with the stick or e-collar. On the bucket I was simply patting my leg to bring him back to heel as he was moving slightly forward. In the instances that he did not comply I moved him back, I was not trying to get him to stop barking.

I’m not trying to argue or justify anything here just giving all the back ground so that maybe this thread will help someone else who is having the same issue.


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## polmaise

Randy Bohn said:


> Believe it or not obedience will help your noise problem...Randy


That should just about cover it .


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## Larry Hindman

You are on the right track seeking training advice from Randy. Many many of us on RTF are looking for the same guidance. Look forward to the future posts from Randy on this thread.


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## Randy Bohn

Step 1...Stay out of the field...no marks for awhile...
In your back yard do stationary sits with a 20 ft. rope....do a 360 degree walk around...no stick (throw that thing away)....no collar for corrections if he gets up, physically walk in and correct him..let me know how that goes...Randy.


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## Terry Marshall

Yes you're now talking obedience, It's all about getting personal. So far Im on board.


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## DarrinGreene

Randy Bohn said:


> Step 1...Stay out of the field...no marks for awhile...
> In your back yard do stationary sits with a 20 ft. rope....do a 360 degree walk around...no stick (throw that thing away)....no collar for corrections if he gets up, physically walk in and correct him..let me know how that goes...Randy.


how is the dog released from sit position and where it the handler standing when that occurs?


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## oneshotlu

Awesome, awesome thread. I am having similar issues with my young female who is not yet collar conditioned. I am learning so much and look forward to keeping up with this thread as you work through this problem with Randy.


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## Tom. P.

We all can learn something from this thread.
Thank you Randy.
This is the reason I come to rtf.


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## MurreyBoy

I just got done with the training session. Did four different sit sessions/location. Stone (the dog) never lifted his back end up did move front legs some. Every time I gave him a NO and came in and re set him. I did not give collar correction on the sit session. I gave several no’s when he would lose focus (look away) and several good boys when he was really focused. Will try and talk the wife into videoing tomorrow. 
I always walked up and heeled the dog to new location in yard. After the final sit I released with his release command from my side. Did NOT do any here’s or marks.


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## MurreyBoy

P.S. the stick is up in the garage.


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## Randy Bohn

Pick one location and don't move the dog...as your moving around the dog gently pull the rope towards you to try and get the dog to move,,,gently..just trying to figure out how far your obedience has dropped.....we'll see your basic collar conditioning next....
If I had a noisy dog in we could do this together step by step but I just got rid of two...Randy


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## Bill Stoune

Great thread!
Thanks Randy.


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## MurreyBoy

Will do. By location I meant more like spot in the yard we only move 10 feet. But will stay in the same spot tonight.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

MurreyBoy said:


> Thanks again for all the comments, we never meant to offend anyone else by calling on Randy directly. But all the PMs I’m getting from other people commenting on how much Randy helped them with their vocal dog tell me he’s the way to go.
> 
> In the obedience videos I was trying not to correct the dog only tapping when he was completely not focused. His jumping caught me off guard as he hasn’t done that since he was puppy. I never meant for it to be an obedience session thought it was supposed to be more of a gauge and clearly we need some work.
> 
> When we are in the prior videos Wayne asked me not to correct the dog with the stick or e-collar. On the bucket I was simply patting my leg to bring him back to heel as he was moving slightly forward. In the instances that he did not comply I moved him back, I was not trying to get him to stop barking.
> 
> I’m not trying to argue or justify anything here just giving all the back ground so that maybe this thread will help someone else who is having the same issue.


Yes it will and thanks to you and Wayne for posting the thread & thxs to Randy for his comments.


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## MurreyBoy

Was able to due another sit session in the front yard tonight. This one didn’t go as well; Stone got up once and was very distracted. I was able to video but it was already getting dark and it’s hard to see the dog. Will try and post tonight hopefully the video will be of some value.


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## MurreyBoy

Here is the video, in some parts of the video it sounds as if the dog is whining but he’s not. Not sure what the sound is wind or birds but the dog was quiet the whole time. 
Again sorry for the bad quality but wanted to get something up as I know that the video is a lot more helpful then my descriptions. https://youtu.be/9Y2omCoiz1I


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## Wayne Nutt

Matt, I couldn't get much out of the video as it was too dark.

You are welcome to borrow my old Sony Handycam. It works fine but it is only SD as opposed to HD. It can be mounted on a tripod and then you won't have to wait on your wife to video. The excess on both ends (walking to turn the handy cam on and off) of the video can be edited out.


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## MurreyBoy

Hi Wayne thanks for the offer but I think my camera is fine just got it this past December. Just lost light quicker than I thought last night with the clouds it was sprinkling on us. I see that I lost some quality uploading to youtube, it looked better on my computer prior to uploading. Will break out the tripod and get better footage tonight. My camera has a night mode that I found after we were done will give that a try to. Thought that maybe the audio could show things that I’m doing wrong and need to correct.


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## tmath1969

I found using two tie raps to strap my iphone to a blind stake was the easiest and fastest way to capture and upload videos to youtube.


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## Breck

Video showed some. 
If you must film at night forget night mode just hop in truck and drive to nearest lit area. Parking lot, school, church


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## MurreyBoy

Got some daily light video. He gets up at around 5:14 mark, my wife came out the front door with our 9 month old unexpectedly and it startled both of us. I understand that he shouldn’t get up no matter what, this happened off camera and wanted to let everyone know what happened. Had her stay sitting on the front porch just to see if that changed anything. 
When I go up to correct for not sitting I’m grabbing his flat organ collar not the prong.
https://youtu.be/X3-fiSOjEbU


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## Randy Bohn

Matt....5 minutes and 15 seconds into your video....What did you learn?? Randy


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## MurreyBoy

He’s not near steady, will continue to work on this and add distractions.


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## roslandva

Great thread!


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## Randy Bohn

That's correct Matt, if your dog doesn't pay attention to you in your yard in a very boring atmosphere how will he be able to control himself out in the field....and yes keep doing what your doing and add small distractions as you and the dog get better and better....repetition after repetition after repetition, change his mind without using collar or whip....takes time....lots and lots of time....Randy


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## DarrinGreene

How do we reinforce the dog looking at us/paying attention Randy? 

Stone is looking everywhere but at the handler all throughout the video. 5:14 is the most obvious infraction but he never really pays much attention.

Also, how do we reduce the stress? I saw at least one yawn and he looks pretty flat.


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## bshaf

DarrinGreene said:


> How do we reinforce the dog looking at us/paying attention Randy?
> 
> Stone is looking everywhere but at the handler all throughout the video. 5:14 is the most obvious infraction but he never really pays much attention.
> 
> Also, how do we reduce the stress? I saw at least one yawn and he looks pretty flat.


Very interested in the answer to this... Thread keeps getting better.


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## FieldLab

Great thread, thanks for making it public !!!


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## Mark Littlejohn

And is "no" the proper first response? Seems that handler says "no" a lot. Of the pros' I've been around they rarely say "no". More likely correct and repeat command.


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## Bridget Bodine

Mark Littlejohn said:


> And is "no" the proper first response? Seems that handler says "no" a lot. Of the pros' I've been around they rarely say "no". More likely correct and repeat command.


NO is the most overused word ! I am one of the rarely use it people


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## RookieTrainer

Randy Bohn said:


> That's correct Matt, if your dog doesn't pay attention to you in your yard in a very boring atmosphere how will he be able to control himself out in the field


Truer words were never spoken. I found out - as I was headed to the line in my first JH test with a dog that looked like mine but that I had never really seen or had to deal with before - that just because he is fairly good at paying attention in the yard you're not anywhere near done.

I would also offer that if you are going to use "no", understand that it is not a command. It only tells the dog you are doing something wrong. If you use no it needs to be followed by a command, in the form of "don't do that, do this". In your case, "no, sit".

Anybody else see some utility in using a place board or at least a mat to make sit right there in that spot black and white for this dog? I had similar issues and they did not start improving until a started using a mat (thanks fishduck) that was just large enough for my dog to get on. Any movement put him off the mat.


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## DoubleHaul

RookieTrainer said:


> I would also offer that if you are going to use "no", understand that it is not a command. It only tells the dog you are doing something wrong. If you use no it needs to be followed by a command, in the form of "don't do that, do this". In your case, "no, sit".


Agreed that it is not a command, but it doesn't need to be followed by a command, depending on what you are doing and how you trained the dog. It could mean (to the dog) that it is on the borderline of doing something wrong and if it doesn't act right a correction may be coming. It also could be--especially when teaching--telling the dog that it is not doing something right yet, try again. In which case you would not necessarily follow up with a command. 



RookieTrainer said:


> Anybody else see some utility in using a place board or at least a mat to make sit right there in that spot black and white for this dog? I had similar issues and they did not start improving until a started using a mat (thanks fishduck) that was just large enough for my dog to get on. Any movement put him off the mat.


Yes. I believe black and white is better, especially at first. Obviously older dogs need to learn to live with gray but some things will always be strict. Mats are great. I used to use place boards and had to give them up during a move and feel they are very helpful--especially if they are raised up so the dog gets off. I need to make some more, they are so useful. Not only for pups, I think my older dogs could benefit from tune ups.


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## Sharon Potter

Bridget Bodine said:


> NO is the most overused word ! I am one of the rarely use it people


Agreed. "No" isn't productive because it doesn't give the dog any direction. It's more of a frustration outlet for us humans...the vast majority of the words we use with our dogs are more for our benefit than theirs.


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## JRinNE

Sharon Potter said:


> Agreed. "No" isn't productive because it doesn't give the dog any direction. It's more of a frustration outlet for us humans...the vast majority of the words we use with our dogs are more for our benefit than theirs.


What would be a better way to make the correction?


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## Sharon Potter

How about telling the dog what it should be doing? Sit, here, etc.


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## MurreyBoy

Randy Bohn said:


> That's correct Matt, if your dog doesn't pay attention to you in your yard in a very boring atmosphere how will he be able to control himself out in the field....and yes keep doing what your doing and add small distractions as you and the dog get better and better....repetition after repetition after repetition, change his mind without using collar or whip....takes time....lots and lots of time....Randy


Thanks Randy, will do on the repetition part and no collar or whip (which is still retired in the garage).

Agree with comments on the No that I could be over using it; I have probably said it more in the last few days then in the last two months. I use it to tell the dog he’s doing something wrong, I use the “good boy” when he looks at me to tell him he’s doing something right. 

My plan and again this is only my thoughts is that as Stone learns to focus only on me to start using “no” and “good boy” less and less. I have also started going to him when he completely loses focus even if he doesn’t move his feet. But if Randy instructs me differently I will definitely change.


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## FieldLab

What do you suggest saying if a dog breaks or takes the wrong line or leaves the aof before finding the bird ?


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## Wayne Nutt

Matt, I think you meant "definitely" not "defiantly". LOL!


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## Sharon Potter

Breaks: Sit, heel or here. Leaving AOF: what good does no do? Have bird boy help/use call on winger/salt area if young dog and no helper. Takes the wrong line: Either line the dog up better and read the dog, or recall and correct. No doesn't really tell the dog it took the wrong line...It just says the handler is ticked off.


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## Sharon Potter

And so we don't mess up this thread and take it off track, how about starting a new one about No if the discussion needs to continue.


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## MurreyBoy

Wayne Nutt said:


> Matt, I think you meant "definitely" not "defiantly". LOL!


yes, sorry about that, corrected


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## Randy Bohn

Matt, continue doing remote sits and add distractions as you go along and it gets better...

As for everyone elses replies....Trying to teach someone 1 on 1 is hard enough in person, finding out what makes them tick inside, repetitions with the human factor isn't easy..My guess is Matt is new at the dog game from watching the videos (i'm just guessing) so to overload him with, timing of verbal commands like no...or using a mat or not to becomes very grey for people after awhile...SO...

Basics...we're just starting out here so 360 remote sit, no foot movement...rock steady...
Priorities are 1) remain sitting..
2)remain sitting
3)remain sitting
Down the road your dog will give you plenty of eye contact...you only started remolding your dogs view of life...Randy

also Matt [email protected] is my email and 484 332 9781 is my cell if you don't want to rehab your dog in public, this takes at least 8-12 weeks...


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## Bridget Bodine

Sharon Potter said:


> How about telling the dog what it should be doing? Sit, here, etc.


 Absolutely! I told him to sit, tell him to sit again! When you tell him no, you are wasting valuable time, to help him get it right

New thread started


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## DarrinGreene

Randy Bohn said:


> Matt, continue doing remote sits and add distractions as you go along and it gets better...
> 
> As for everyone elses replies....Trying to teach someone 1 on 1 is hard enough in person, finding out what makes them tick inside, repetitions with the human factor isn't easy..My guess is Matt is new at the dog game from watching the videos (i'm just guessing) so to overload him with, timing of verbal commands like no...or using a mat or not to becomes very grey for people after awhile...SO...
> 
> Basics...we're just starting out here so 360 remote sit, no foot movement...rock steady...
> Priorities are 1) remain sitting..
> 2)remain sitting
> 3)remain sitting
> Down the road your dog will give you plenty of eye contact...you only started remolding your dogs view of life...Randy
> 
> also Matt [email protected] is my email and 484 332 9781 is my cell if you don't want to rehab your dog in public, this takes at least 8-12 weeks...


Great response - keep going - it doesn't have to be perfect - don't get overwhelmed - we will refine it - listen to one person only...

I remember this advice - it's good.

So I'd like to suggest, as Sharon has - that we all keep our keyboards quiet and WATCH from here on in. This is the best chance I've ever seen for us all to see this process. 

Let's not drive it underground by asking questions. 

Let it play out.


----------



## Randy Bohn

You missed the point Darrin, ask all the questions you want, type away....but if I were Matt I would get confused after awhile with different things being said....and we all know threads are hijacked after awhile so i gave him cell and website info....if matt works hard and keeps his cool in training his dog you'll see why fixing noise is a time consuming job....Randy


----------



## Mark Littlejohn

Randy, (ideally) what should Matt's immediate reaction be when the dog breaks sit 20' away at the end of the cord?


----------



## Randy Bohn

walk in calmly and snap him up by the prong collar and say sit, then walk away...most dogs will be fine walking back and forth from a 10 to 2 position (on a clock) in front of the dog but once you go behind the dog from 10 to 2 is when failure begins,,,,,Randy


----------



## DarrinGreene

Randy Bohn said:


> You missed the point Darrin, ask all the questions you want, type away....but if I were Matt I would get confused after awhile with different things being said....and we all know threads are hijacked after awhile so i gave him cell and website info....if matt works hard and keeps his cool in training his dog you'll see why fixing noise is a time consuming job....Randy


I didn't miss the point Randy - Keep asking questions - confuse Matt - frustrate Randy and none of us get to see the process play out. 

Might have been you and a group of your friends that began to convince me that sometimes - it's better to shut up and watch.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Randy, thank you for the contact info, sent you mine. I would like to keep the thread going sounds like there are people that could benefit from it. 
I never meant to put a stop to or get distracted by the No topic but as some mentioned it might be helpful to start new threads. Please feel free to post a link to the new thread in this one so that others can find. Heck feel free to copy over the videos as needed. Please don’t miss take my politeness as being thinned skinned. I can handle the criticism.
My back ground, I trained a few bird dogs (pointer, setters for quail) and one retriever before but just meat dogs. This is the first one that I have tried to go further with. As you can see I bite off more than I could chew. I love working with dogs and see a lot of positives in this one and am committed to working through this. 
I have been working on the sit 360 and have slowly added distractions. It is getting better and will post more videos in the next few days.


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## Wayne Nutt

Randy, Matt said you wanted to see some videos of ob around the holding blind and possibly a remote honor. Here are some of those videos. There were no marks this morning just ob.

Moving from one holding blind to another:
https://youtu.be/qtvt466T95w

Distractions in holding blind. I inadvertently launched a BB. I was intending to hit sound button only.
https://youtu.be/dGVFfOReMgE

More distractions. In holding blind, slapping front of blind
[/url]https://youtu.be/5qim8Rka8c0

Lots of distractions, mule, loading another dog, etc.
https://youtu.be/6v1mYuclDv0

I messed up this video. Jason hand threw a dummy for Hank while Stone was on remote sit. Stone didn't move and honored Hank on the simple mark.
https://youtu.be/uqrHGoTSmA8

I noted several things but will leave the comments to Randy.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Thank you Wayne for taking and posting the videos, and also having me out to train today.

As I mentioned in I believe the fourth video I have been working on his sit generally twice per day but just hadn't gotten any good video to post.


----------



## Breck

Hard to be sure but it appears your pinch collar is not sized properly. Too many links? 
Also, pull straight up for pinch corrections. If large ring hits the stop when correcting collar is too long. 
Make a clip on rope tab with small knot on end t
which will soon replace your check cord.


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## Randy Bohn

Not quite what I meant but moving on....
Your dog (again) SHOULD NOT be in the field
, I'd like to see your collar conditioning now starting with sit...Randy


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## MurreyBoy

Randy – Sorry I thought you wanted to see these things in post #26 and #29 you requested. I did see in #35 you said stay out of the field no marks. I miss took that as just no marks. Which he hasn’t had any. That has been the only day in the field.
Video of collar conditioning. I try and point the transmitter straight ahead so that you can see when e-collar pressure is used. This was second section trying to get on camera, did one yesterday but kept getting off camera.

https://youtu.be/gRPGzKrk25g


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## Wayne Nutt

Matt, Tell Randy the brand of ecollar and settings.


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## MurreyBoy

tri-tronics field 90 on a 3. Most of the time a 3 works well but some days can be a bit to hard and back down to 2. The collar range is from 1 to 6 with no other levels.


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## Breck

You did well with heel, sit and remote sit. Add in some backwards heeling. Also part of CC is to call in from remote sit to heel/sit on both sides. Then add an in route sit when calling in from remote sit. 
Cheers
. 
Download this pdf which will be helpful 
http://www.weebegoldens.com/attachments/article/40/Dog's%20Hard%20Wiring.pdf


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## Randy Bohn

You might want to find hands on help if your not sure but your dogs sits on collar are not quick enough, you can tell he's not responding quick enough because you have to pull up on the leash to make him sit....speed up your walking pace also, your boring the dog....find the dogs optimum learning pressure and use it to condition him....Randy


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## polmaise

Randy Bohn said:


> You might want to find hands on help if your not sure but your dogs sits on collar are not quick enough, you can tell he's not responding quick enough because you have to pull up on the leash to make him sit....speed up your walking pace also, your boring the dog....find the dogs optimum learning pressure and use it to condition him....Randy


I'll be honest Randy, The dog doesn't look comfortable and is not learning it's only complying without learning .The handler has no timing and pulling rather than correcting because the leash/prong length is way too long for any 'instant' response to what is being asked. Other than that ..it looks boring therefore it is boring ,and will be boring ...High drive requires ..Calm handler . This match ain't made in heaven or in programs . I've gleamed more from your persistent request to the handler for OB in the yard before any performance in the field . Thanks ..Tough call to be asked on open forum to keep responding with the distractions. I'll bow out


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## MurreyBoy

Agree with all comment on that session. I was going slowly to stay in front of camera. This was second session I did one session last night but kept going too fast and getting off camera. The dog seems to know that another obedience session is coming and is not looking forward to it. If you notice he keeps looking at the camera since it only come out to film the sessions. I will just have the camera out all the time from now on. Filming your self is harder than it looks. 

Over all dogs attitude is lower than ever with no marks life for him just start to suck. But I understand that it is for the greater good. 

Here is tonight’s session. He is still slow on the sit. When he bark it’s because I went from a 3 to 4 to see if I get a quicker response. Used a 3 the rest of the session. I never really taught reveres heel, it’s more of a “back up to me”. Was just trying to go further back to see what he would do and change it up for him. The dog is hot its 100 here. 
https://youtu.be/hwsdGAfvUmE


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## Randy Bohn

Matt, why are you doing recalls when your doing a sit command?? why are you having the dog back up on a sit command?? sit means sit means sit means sit...this probably isn't going to work out unless I have a dog to do this with to show you what I mean......I use to save videos of dogs with noise in for rehab but I erased them. Not sure how to proceed on your dogs issues....
When you condition on sit you do sits only, adding in whistles as you go....don't combine lessons.....ever.....Randy


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## MurreyBoy

Got it just sit, we’re starting at the beginning and rebuilding. 
Did recalls because I didn’t get that we are starting at the bottom and it helps keep the dogs attitude up (he really likes doing that).
Going forward just sit. 
So I’m clear do you just want walking/heeling sits? 
Should I add in sits were I keep walking as I give sit command? 
Do I keep working on the sit 360?
If so during same session as sit? From your comment about not mixing I will do in different sessions. Unless told otherwise. 
Randy if you’re willing to continue I will ask more questions so that I know what you’re expecting. I will post video in a few days to show progress. 
Thanks,
Matt


----------



## DeWayne S.

Please keep this thread going. However frustrating it may be, there are a few (especially me) that are learning sooo much from this. I was one that thought OB was pretty solid....until now! Thanks!!


----------



## Wayne Nutt

I thought Stone gave a more crisp response to sit when Matt used level four. Stone gave a vocal response but I'd bet that was because he was surprised. And it probably would go away. What do you think Randy?


----------



## Randy Bohn

Collar conditioning on sit:
1) By your side, find the dogs optimum learning pressure without freaking him out but don't foo foo thru it either..make it count everytime you press the button...5 corrections only per session....
2) add whistles...
3) whistle sit and continue walking....when the dog is lagging and expecting a correction 
4) do 360 walk around sit....

your sessions should be less than 5 minutes ..Randy


----------



## Randy Bohn

Where did you go Matt??


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Randy, Matt is still here and working with Stone trying to get it done. Maybe he'll post a new video this weekend.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Yes,still here, filming myself just doesn't work. Will try and have my wife film tomorrow evenings session. I feel that we are making progress.


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## Wayne Nutt

I have done plenty of videoing from a remote tripod. Two things: you have get further from the camera on a wide angle setting. Second, look through the viewing screen and see where the edges (limits of the field of view) are and stay within them.
But I will agree a camera person is much better.


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## MurreyBoy

This morning’s session. The first whistles sit he was lagging, hard to see from behind. I only gave 5 e-collar corrections on level 3; sorry I don’t do a good job of showing when I used. Some are just pinch collar corrections. Typically don’t have any barks but as you can see we did this morning. 
https://youtu.be/AlcvICQzvKE


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## Randy Bohn

Move on to heeling now with collar corrections, you need to move alot faster, start stop...side heeling...backing up...etc...make him pay attention to you. When you move he moves....speed up 4 times faster than when you did sits...This also as a refresher is 3 days max....move it along....Randy


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Way to go Stone. Looks like you graduated to step 2.


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## DarrinGreene

He looks much more focused now.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Tonights session. Noticed myself giving the sit command during the drill. Should I not be (combining lesssons)?

https://youtu.be/iRvtKDpunZs


----------



## BJGatley

Your dog’s tail sez a lot about his behavior to you.


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## Bridget Bodine

LOL Dance much? Much better attention at a brisk pace.


----------



## bshaf

This thread is really incredible, front seat for anyone interested! Almost think I should be paying for this! Extremely helpful to so many. Thanks to all involved! Stone seems to be tuned in now!


----------



## TaterTot

As a beginner myself trying to train my first retriever, I also really appreciate this thread! Not going to lie, I am following along with my dog just trying to get my dog's obedience that much better.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Tonights session. 

https://youtu.be/hET4KlOhv_8


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## BJGatley

He was a little slow tonight but all in all a good night. Praise is a powerful tool.  
My penny.


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## Randy Bohn

Matt, slow your speed down to just a fast walk your moving a little to fast now. When you back up the dog his spine should be parallel to your leg not in front of you, you move he moves, also when you side step you move...he moves.....if he doesn't move when you do give him some sort of a reminder. When you back up and side step its small 6 inch steps only, forward motion is a normal speed but side and reverse is smaller steps....Randy


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## MurreyBoy

Yesterday morning session. Not our best, I was slow with corrections and Stone was distracted by the smell of something in the yard. But got better at the end of the session. 

https://youtu.be/CbtT_FOuhaQ


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## Randy Bohn

He needs a kick in the ass Matt, it's better BUT you'll need better attention from him in the future....when you side step he hesitates a little to long and if he hesitates give him a correction either by the prong or prong and collar together. Also fix his spine while backing up, make it matter...make it count.
Slow your walk just a little more, not alot just a little...
When you move he moves,if he doesn't move when you do, don't move again until he really is paying attention to you. Hurry up and get this part done because boredom is right around the corner....Randy


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## DarrinGreene

Randy, what's your preference for straightening the spine when backing up? I remember you using a broken heeling stick once with my Abby but but how would you fix this one?


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## Randy Bohn

Yes, use the whip as a guide not a beating tool if you like....or shorten up on your leash....looks like 2 days and he should be finished on this step...Randy

ps throw your whip back into retirement after this.....


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## BJGatley

I think or believe that the boredom has already set in. JMO 
He needs to change his gig.


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## DeWayne S.

When doing "heeling" and you make pup sit. "You move, he moves" does he give the heel command EVERY time? Or is pup supposed to move without command? I'm actually doing this with my pup, after a "heel" and "sit", when I move I have to repeat "heel" command or he'll just sit there.


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## Randy Bohn

Noise program is different than regular teaching for the first time......for Matt he shouldn't be saying anything to his dog except for heel once in the very beginning, the rest of the time just moving and being quiet..pay attention to the owner is the key on these basic obedience drills..Randy


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## MurreyBoy

This morning session. Will work on getting it together. As noted I think some times Stone is a little confused as to weather he should sit or heel if I don't give command. I didn't see the comments tell after this mornings session, will apply to this evening session. 
https://youtu.be/D256-jCzaYU


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## Tony Marshall

That spine alignment when heeling backwards can also be fixed by practicing along side a wall or fence. Put your dog between you and the wall and they have no choice but to back up straight. Once the mechanics are developed you can move away from the wall. Just a trick if the stick doesn't work well.


----------



## DarrinGreene

Randy Bohn said:


> Yes, use the whip as a guide not a beating tool if you like....or shorten up on your leash....looks like 2 days and he should be finished on this step...Randy
> 
> ps throw your whip back into retirement after this.....


Thanks Randy


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## MurreyBoy

This morning’s session. I’m intentionally holding the whip incorrectly (up high by my shoulder) so that I only use it to straighten spine when backing up. Found myself instinctively going to it for other corrections (old habits die hard). 

https://youtu.be/at0We9j56Qs


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## Breck

Please remember half of the equation is you. Be crisp, deliberate and percise in how you handle dog while communicating clearly with your body.


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## Randy Bohn

Matt.....46 seconds into your video...side step is no good, you move 6 inch steps only and if he doesn't react you need to correct somehow whether a snap on prong or collar.Don't keep moving unless he's with you.
1:34 into video....slow sits again...
1:44 into video...sniffs ground, which means he's not paying attention to you again...fix it.. 
2:15 into video...looks away from you, again he should be more interested in you not the neighbor across the street.....
2:27....slow sit again'''
2:32....side step heeling.....not even close...
2:48....side steps.....NO GOOD 
2:58...you finally corrected him for being lazy with a snap on the prong...FINALLY!!!
3:16...side step....no good
4:14....side step no good...
4:34....slow sit, not paying attention...
Bottom line you need to fix these obedience flaws or your noise will increase when the task becomes harder in the future....Randy


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## BJGatley

Matt.
Hang in there. Maybe take a day off and understand what is being said.


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## BJGatley

You will do it.


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## MurreyBoy

This morning’s session. Around the 6:30 mark the neighbor across the street comes out and starts loading his boat. I was getting ready to stop but thought this was a good opportunity for a distraction so kept going. As you can see Stone does lose some focus. 

https://youtu.be/67s5WdK6p2g

I notice after reading your comments yesterday that my edit to my prior post did not post. The e-collar was not working during that session. I thought something was a miss but could swear I heard the tone when I tested the collar. As you noted not a good session at all I should have stopped it or just gone to only pinch collar. Not an excuse, I notice on yesterday video that *I* was making a lot of the same mistakes even with the e-collar working. 

I’ve noticed that Stone is leaning into me to feel me move. Is this ok? Should I keep some space between us so that he has to watch me to see when I move?


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Keep working Murrey. You doing a good job! Hang in there.


----------



## Breck

Ask for and get Snappier sits. Review last few videos. When you stop walking, dog takes 2 seconds to settle butt on ground. 
Shoot for 1/2 second. To help dog, rather than easing your brakes to come to a stop, slam on brakes, boom, stop. 
. 

Using stick with right hand causes trouble because of telegraphing movement. Hold stick in Left hand thumb/index finger like top chop stick and rest on shoulder. Grip lead with ring/pinky against palm. From here movement reduced to flick of wrist with zero body twist. 99% of time moving dog at heel foot/chest/dog spine are aligned. 
Cheers


----------



## duck dog 45

thanks randy and matt for letting us be a part of this.
could of used this w/my last dog
bring a new dog along now and watching this thread will help


----------



## lorneparker1

I just want to commend Matt for his willingness to take constructive criticism and his commitment to getting this right. 

Well done sir!


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## MurreyBoy

Took video of this morning’s session but didn’t have time to load before work. Will post this evening. Finding that pinch collar works best for the slow sit and e-collar for when Stone loses focus. Not having to guide with stick as much on the side heel but still needed some times. Most of the time the pinch collar does a better job of bring Stone’s spine in line then the stick. 
I know the videos are more telling and will post this evening.


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## MurreyBoy

At the 2:20 mark I’m just waving to son that’s watching from the window. Just after that neighbor is putting out trash Stone does get distracted, I correct and intentionally go closer to make sure Stone is focused on me. Have I slowed down to much? 

https://youtu.be/NavioYxQfY8


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## Randy Bohn

Matt....very nice, compare the recent video to your first one, quite different....tighten up on him watching and paying attention to you just a little more tomorrow in your next session,snap him on that prong to keep his attention... One more session and we're moving on to the next step.....Good job!!!! Randy


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## MurreyBoy

Thank you, will do on correcting his laps in attention.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Filmed this morning’s session will post this evening. Neighbor was out again this time moving lawn sprinklers. This offered an opportunity for distraction and correcting lapses in attention.

At the 0:50 mark Stone notices the neighbor move sprinklers. You can see him try and look over at her when we back up things get a little sideways there. At the 2:20 mark she comes to the curb to watch so I point Stone towards her and he loses focus when I back up same at the 3:50 mark. Watching the video I should have gotten more focus out of him I felt it was better at the time but watching the video he is still looking at her too much. I mention the neighbor because it happens off camera.

https://youtu.be/8s8G7sjpNLw


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## MurreyBoy

Edited post above.


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## Randy Bohn

Matt, you've done well...call me so we can talk about your next step...484 332 9781....leave your number i'll call you later today...

And.....to other people who pm'd me....without seeing a video it's hard to answer questions but i'm sure your obedience is to low....Randy


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## MurreyBoy

Randy my number is 903-521-8281, email [email protected] can't remember if I left that in phone message. Call anytime.


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## Wayne Nutt

In this day of iPhones anyone can video. There are tripods for iPhones. Plus the video cams on the marker now are very reasonably priced.


----------



## Randy Bohn

Matt is out of town.....be back Friday....


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Matt is training with me on Sat but not bringing Stone. I will let him run Shadow for experience.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Taped this mornings session will post this evening. Sorry for delays but have been training at night. Overall I would say that Stone is undistracted by the holding blind and has made no noise.


----------



## MurreyBoy

This morning session. As stated in prior post Stone hasn't been to distracted by the holding blind. And there hasn't been any noise. I can see that I was off this morning didn't have transmitter in hand when I needed it and fumbling with the wipe. Will try and tape tommorrow morning session. 

https://youtu.be/_jQ7IO8THIU


----------



## hotbeer

Thank you all for all of this. Huge amount of information here delivered in such a direct and easy to follow manner. And thank you Matt for taking this problem and dealing with it publicly for us new guys to watch.


----------



## MurreyBoy

This mornings session. Had some neighbors walk by with their dog, Stone again got pretty distracted. But seems to get that the corrections are for lack of focus. Doesn't always respond the first time but seems to be getting it. 

https://youtu.be/-c-C2Vgyrnk


----------



## Pete

I can't help but notice that the short leash has tension on it almost always. This indicates many things to me. One very important point is that you are cueing the dog what and when you are going to change direction and he has no other option but to follow your lead. The result of this is that the dog doesn't have to pay attention to you because it doesn't have to. You keep cuing what is coming next. A leash should have a J in it to prevent the dog from being warned that something is coming next. You snapping with tension already on the leash also
You will get a different mind set if you do all of this on a loose leash and use a snap without tension for a correction. It will never ultimately be the dogs responsibility to perform these obedience maneuvers if it is always warned whats coming next. A leash is like the reigns of a horse and dogs become very sensitive to its use. He should be able to be trained to focus on you through his perifrial. or by direct eye contact. I hope that makes sense to you. This aint my gig,, and may be other people do obedience this way,, but if you do then you will deny the dog the opportunity to learn to focus on the handler without constant cuing (actually warnings).
Pete
P


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Pete, I'm sure many of us noticed the same thing. But this is not regular ob training but a rehab program for barking. He has only just begun step 2 of a 12 step program.


----------



## Pete

> Pete, I'm sure many of us noticed the same thing. But this is not regular ob training but a rehab program for barking. He has only just begun step 2 of a 12 step program


Thanks Wayne
Do you know if Randy instructed him to do it this way to start. I don't recall reading it in any of the posts. It could be an important step in Randy's program,,I don't know. But it would be an important piece of info to know for any one trying to work on the same problem
Thanks
Pete


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## Wayne Nutt

Pete, I believe that he did.


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Pete see post 116 and 119.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Randy’s only comment related to this is as Wayne noted in post 116 “to shorten up on your leash” other than that he has *not* commented on this issue.

*My* thoughts, I am trying to keep my hand over his head and ready to correct. If you notice when I move my body I leave that hand over his head waiting to correct if needed. When I turn I will let that hand move with his head and then correct if he doesn’t turn with me. At the 0:43 I turn my body but Stone fails to notice he’s distract by the dog coming up the street I let my hand stay over his head and then correct when I’m sure he isn’t turning with me. Agree though that I could at other times clue him in with tension that I’m not feeling I see it more in the stops. I will try and let more slack in the line to reduce the clues but still be ready to correct. 

Randy did say that I should only move 6 inches if Stone doesn’t move with me to stop moving and give correction. He also noted that if Stone is not focused on me to give pinch collar correction, that’s why at times when Stone is sitting I will correct for getting distracted by other things. 

For step 2 Randy’s instructions were to keep doing basic obedience around the holding blind. To stay within 5 to 6 yards of the holding blind but to not put Stone in the blind. He noted that most dogs will see this as the starting point and start getting excited about the upcoming mark. By adding the holding blind this will teach the dog that the same level of obedience is held around the holding blind and that the dog’s focus still needs to be on me the handler.


----------



## polmaise

Wayne Nutt said:


> Pete, I believe that he did.


I don't ! But I believe it was referred to in post #90


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Ok I change from "believe" to "he did". Read last sentence of post 26. You probably don't understand it because you are a foreigner. Hahalol.


----------



## Randy Bohn

First let me say this....Right now the days are long so i'm not on here alot....no time...trials are here and time to shine (hopefully)..When you post a new video Matt text me and let me know..
Matt....way to much snapping on the prong collar, everytime you snap him your changing his mind....reverse Stones thinking...your going to have to resort to collar corrections for him not paying attention to you , like when the neighbors walked by. Ask him to heel with you and if he doesn't then correct for not listening to your commands, let him decide if he wants to behave or not, collar intensity is whatever you used in basic collar conditioning to get your point across. One step feeds into the next and continues to build from them.
Imagine if the neighbor walking by was a gun station with live bird crates, would Stone be obedient at this stage?? No way..that's what your working towards..
Not to ruin your attitude on your work your doing with your dog....BUT, you WILL NOT be able to fix him 100%, your wife could.....your neighbor could...your boss could but probably not you. You set your standards already and he knows where they're at, with someone new taking over the dog has to feel out the new teacher to see the level of standards, if it's higher they will adapt...Keep working on making your dog make decisions not you making them for him...Make sense?? Randy


----------



## DarrinGreene

In summary - you have to transfer responsibility for his obedience to him and then hold him accountable -- as opposed to giving him all the answers.


----------



## BJGatley

Randy Bohn said:


> First let me say this....Right now the days are long so i'm not on here alot....no time...trials are here and time to shine (hopefully)..When you post a new video Matt text me and let me know..
> Matt....way to much snapping on the prong collar, everytime you snap him your changing his mind....reverse Stones thinking...your going to have to resort to collar corrections for him not paying attention to you , like when the neighbors walked by. Ask him to heel with you and if he doesn't then correct for not listening to your commands, let him decide if he wants to behave or not, collar intensity is whatever you used in basic collar conditioning to get your point across. One step feeds into the next and continues to build from them.
> Imagine if the neighbor walking by was a gun station with live bird crates, would Stone be obedient at this stage?? No way..that's what your working towards..
> Not to ruin your attitude on your work your doing with your dog....BUT, you WILL NOT be able to fix him 100%, your wife could.....your neighbor could...your boss could but probably not you. You set your standards already and he knows where they're at, with someone new taking over the dog has to feel out the new teacher to see the level of standards, if it's higher they will adapt...Keep working on making your dog make decisions not you making them for him...Make sense?? Randy








Big time smile. 
Get the dog thinking....

Edit: I do not in anyway want to take away from a fantastic thread from what has been said…

In a nutshell....Matt...You need to quit being predictable…


----------



## MurreyBoy

Randy.. I think I miss took your comment in post #135 “snap him on that prong to keep his attention...” that's why I’m snapping Stone when he loses focus and looks around while sitting. Prior to that comment I would have made him heel or back up and corrected if he did not follow. Will do so going forwar.
Should I take him to a park where there would be more distraction to help with this?


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Probably should text Randy. I bet he says stay in your yard.


----------



## MurreyBoy

Will do.
Will stay in the yard tell Randy says other wise.


----------



## freezeland

Great thread. I have been subscribed to it for a while now and have a question that I haven't seen come up yet. I have a Cosmo grandson that is very vocal on the truck way before we ever even get close to our training grounds. He sounds like a siren going down the road back there.

I do not want to distract from this thread or take it off topic, but I have tried a bark limiter on this dog to no avail. He just changes the tone of his vocal to defeat the thing. Would appreciate PM's if anyone has idea's how to get this under control. He has now started bringing it to the line the last couple days. I put him back up on the truck with no retrieves for it but he continues as we train other dogs. It's gettting very annoying.


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## Peter Balzer

On a high level is the barking that this dog and many others exhibit somehow related to dominance issues with their "pack" ie handler/family? Would working on submissive type training be advantageous with vocal dogs?


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## PSinCO

Randy, Matt, Wayne, All, Thanks for this thread. I'm using your techniques on my noisy one.


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## Randy Bohn

Matt, when to correct with the prong and when to correct with collar is the "art' of reading the dog....when to and when not to depends on how many times you have taught your dog the new behavior and what to expect if he doesn't behave. Example...when you tell your dog to heel 500 times and he still doesn't is it a snap, or the collar?? and after the correction what's the response next time would be your real indicator. Once you can read the dog ...get in...get out and move on...this process is like military boot camp...over and over and over...difference here is as you go thru the steps the distractions become harder and harder.....
Stay in the yard, your nowhere near ready for the outside world, use your wife and kids in the yard ....when your ready.....read the dog.....vital to your success in the program...Randy


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## MurreyBoy

Will work on my corrections, I sometime feel that my reaction time is slow and that I can’t correct because I missed my chance or as you stated I’m using the wrong type of correction. As I watch the prior video is see that’s it’s getting better but also see that my focus on Stone has also improve now I just need to work on reading him and what he is going to do. 

This morning’s session, just so happened my 3 ½ year old asked to go so of course I said yes. He is off to the side talking up a storm and holding my calls. I missed some corrections but feel that progress was made. The neighbor across the street is loading his boat again the whole time we’re out there and Stone didn’t seem to care. Again I mention these things because there off camera. 

Group... As we go through this you will see my family from time to time in the videos please no comments about them or my parenting. I have no issues with the comments about my training the NO thread was great but family is different. I’m sure we can all agree and relate. 

https://youtu.be/c32b_B5skpk


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## Randy Bohn

Matt, when's your groups next training day?? Randy


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## DarrinGreene

He looked good in that video Matt.


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## Raymond Little

MurreyBoy said:


> Tonights session.
> 
> https://youtu.be/hET4KlOhv_8


Much better without flip flops, bet your neighbors think you're training for some kind of chinese deliver job.

Last video was a vast improvement from page one;-)


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## MurreyBoy

Randy.. Sorry for the delay, I was trying to see if I could manage my schedule to go train this weekend but can’t. My brother-in-law is coming with his dog. Not sure if that would work. 

Thank you all for the positive comments. Yes works a lot better with shoes, I stepped on Stone pretty good at the start so went bare foot then flip flops and now back to shoes. But have kept the small steps. I don’t want an injury to delay or stop this training. Had a cut back paw awhile back that took several weeks to heal.


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## Randy Bohn

Matt, your close but still not quite good enough response and reaction from Stone at times. Your only about 90% there really....
So to prove to yourself that he's not with you quite yet, take you and your brother in law out to the field and just stand him in the field around 40 yds and do obedience around the holding blind that you'll have set up...demand a quick response from him. This isn't the usual next step but your there and I'm here so we have to make the best of it...If all goes well have him hey hey every so often and see how that goes...record it if you can.... Randy


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## MurreyBoy

This evening’s session, wife was busy getting house ready for 1 year old's birthday so I had to just tie Huck (the house dog) up to a tree just off to the left. This is the first time he has been out for heeling drills. I used him on the sit 360 with wife leading him around Stone. Winston decided to join last minute, but he is still too small to hold lead for Huck with the street right there.

There are several times that I unintentionally let the heeling stick rest to low and it taps Stone, not trying to correct or cue. I just need to pay more attention to what I’m doing and keep the stick out of the way. At the 2:37 mark I did give ecollar correction for lagging, hard to see on camera but he was to far back and I had already given pinch correction earlier for lagging. Mention
this because it’s hard to see on video.  

Going with brother-in-law in morning will post video, might be evening before I get it up. 

Winston is normally my bird boy and blowing the call is part of his job, and he really likes to do that anyway. 

https://youtu.be/Z6vlO0efEC0


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## MurreyBoy

This morning’s session in a field that I use for marks, Stone has never had any obedience work here. When I stop to set everything up Stone was excited he was looking all around trying to find the blinds and wingers. There was no noise from the moment we left the house all the way back. Brother-in-laws dog breaking and running around was not planned.

https://youtu.be/54WurC1DkME

I videoed getting out of the truck just to see how things went.

https://youtu.be/y26PcXLsMQQ


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## Randy Bohn

So before we continue is it better or are we wasting time? Randy


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## MurreyBoy

Randy... I think things have improved. The session in the field was not as good as in the yard but half way through it things seem to come more together. Around the house and even in the field yesterday all the noise has stopped. As we were setting up my brother in law did some here work with is dog and Stone did not move while at sit. I did not know he was going to do that but it worked out.
I understand that progress has been slow, but feel that we are making progress and would like to continue. Even if that means that more work is needed on this step.


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## Wayne Nutt

Thought I would let everyone know that Matt and Stone are still progressing. I check in with him every now and then to see how they are doing. Matt and Randy are communicating via email.
I will leave it to Matt to add any info as to the drills they are currently doing.


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## P J

Thanks for the update Wayne. I've followed this thread and wondered how things were going. 

It has made me aware that my dog's test failures mostly came from my inexperience as a trainer and handler. I was not strict enough with her obedience and probably started running tests before either of us were ready.


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## Randy Bohn

Matt chooses to not post on drills he's doing right now....Randy


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## Buncoboy

Randy Bohn said:


> Matt chooses to not post on drills he's doing right now....Randy


Not trying to be rude, but this is like watching a movie and the last 10 minutes get cut off, but I can appreciate privacy. Hope things are going well.


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## PSinCO

Matt and Randy, I joined the forum because of this thread.
My noisy Drahthaar is so much better after following along with the yard obedience work. 
Water and the shotgun still ramp her up, but, not like before. She's also a much better hunting partner, traveling companion and family pet.

Thanks for sharing part of your journey.


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## Randy Bohn

He's suppose to be saving videos of the steps he has been doing with Stone. After his dog is back in the field full time he might put them on this site. Matt is learning high standards as is Stone, a few phone conversations and a bunch of videos Matt is a pretty good student. Matt has also learned that his dog is not genetically a noisy dog but owner induced. (imagine that)...Between his schedule and mine, emails were the best way to advance his dog....Randy


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## retired2

I read your post on my question about winning and barking. So I will pull the cover off the blind and should I just keep telling him No when he barks and wins?


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## polmaise

Randy Bohn said:


> Matt has also learned that his dog is *not genetically a noisy dog but owner induced.* (imagine that)...Between his schedule and mine, emails were the best way to advance his dog....Randy


Never! .....
well shiver my timbers ! ...
You will have all them breeders shaking


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## Terry Marshall

polmaise said:


> Never! .....
> well shiver my timbers ! ...
> You will have all them breeders shaking


Not sure what this means, Scotland, please put it into American English if you can... and if you can I'll buy you a pint when I see you ladd


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## retired2

You guys talk about a figure 8 in training to stop barking. May I ask what you mean by that? I would like to know if it would help my dog.


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## Breck

retired2 said:


> You guys talk about a figure 8 in training to stop barking. May I ask what you mean by that? I would like to know if it would help my dog.


. 
In order to help your dog you'll first need to educate yourself on the obedience boot camp process etc. Figure 8 heeling is just one part. 
.


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## Wayne Nutt

As Breck mentioned the figure 8 is only one step in the ob boot camp. It is an 8-12 week program. It is taking Matt much longer with Stone because he has to travel quite a bit with his job and is raising a young family. Never-the-less Matt is making progress with Stone. Since you are retired maybe you can accomplish the program within the time guidelines. You will need a video cam to record your dogs progress and to communicate with Randy. If he will agree to help you remotely. You need to talk to Randy.
As stated earlier there is no easy fix. Sorry for the bad news. But you are at the point where you have to stop hunting, start Randy's program or just tolerate the noisy dog.


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## polmaise

Terry Marshall said:


> Not sure what this means, Scotland, please put it into American English if you can... and if you can I'll buy you a pint when I see you ladd


http://www.historyextra.com/qa/shiver-me-timbers

It may also come as a shock ,but I am a firm believer that 99.9% of all Noise issues are Human Induced. I also believe there is a noise (all levels) within them all (dogs) and it just requires the right trigger or circumstances to create it.

Blows the theory of it in the breeding out of the water? ....So if you breed two noisy dogs who have shown an issue of noise during a certain training phase ,You get noisy pups from them at the same stage?.. 
......
I'll look forward to that pint Terry ;-)
Merry Christmas.
Robert


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## Tobias

Merry Christmas to you Robert,

Noise is in them all, and therefore genetic?  

I agree that there must be a trigger to create noise amd some dogs have a lot of triggers and others don't? Perhaps the temperament type also encourages voice?

I would not buy a pup from two noisy parents. I think it is related more to drive/desire and lack of (natural) ability to remain calm in exciting moments. Any dog can be taught to be calm, but it is far better and easier IMO, to have the calmness/focus already present and part of the temperament of that dog.


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## Scott Adams

Tobias said:


> Merry Christmas to you Robert,
> 
> Noise is in them all, and therefore genetic?
> 
> I agree that there must be a trigger to create noise amd some dogs have a lot of triggers and others don't? Perhaps the temperament type also encourages voice?
> 
> I would not buy a pup from two noisy parents. I think it is related more to drive/desire and lack of (natural) ability to remain calm in exciting moments. Any dog can be taught to be calm, but it is far better and easier IMO, to have the calmness/focus already present and part of the temperament of that dog.


Tobias, I think maybe you mean it's nicer to have a dog that doesn't lose it's mind in exciting situations. There is a difference. A calm dog that is not excited by stuff that is supposed to be exciting, to me, is a dog that doesn't have a lot of desire. That intensity that we see in dogs, regardless of how it is expressed is an indication of training and marking potential. The trick is, can you have that intensity, with control. I think you can, and that is what my ideal dog is.
If a dog, is laid back online, chances are, it won't have the drive to get through a complete training program, and go the extra mile. Just my opinion.
I also believe that you are right as far as genetics go, and temperament, but I think good training can usually control those issues.


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## Tobias

Hi Scott,

I am sure we mean the same thing. Just different words.


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## Todd Caswell

I think the total package would be a dog that can sit, watch birds, and move ( team player) with the handler. Some of the great markers were not team players, but had the ability to be great markers while being self employed. Not many can do this and are few and far between...


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## Randy Bohn

Update....Matt is at a sticking point right now because he needs a thrower everyday, so between work and daylight and help there won't be progress for awhile...Randy


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## K9kodi

polmaise said:


> http://www.historyextra.com/qa/shiver-me-timbers
> 
> It may also come as a shock ,but I am a firm believer that 99.9% of all Noise issues are Human Induced. I also believe there is a noise (all levels) within them all (dogs) and it just requires the right trigger or circumstances to create it.
> 
> Blows the theory of it in the breeding out of the water? ....So if you breed two noisy dogs who have shown an issue of noise during a certain training phase ,You get noisy pups from them at the same stage?..
> ......
> I'll look forward to that pint Terry ;-)
> Merry Christmas.
> Robert


Most of the times the dogs issues are human related. haha....Ive always been taught, a dog will only progress to your level of acceptability.


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## Gerry Murphy

Just came across this thread in my search on here and AWESOME info!! Not done reading yet, but I have a dog with seemingly identical issues and personalities. Doing some marks from the boat last night and he was very vocal. Something I have noticing lately. Gonna stop throwing marks and concentrating on the OB drills in this post.


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## Bryan Parks

There is a discussion on a FB group going on about noisy dogs. I found this thread to be very interesting. Thought I would bring it back. Any conclusion to the dog in question?


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## polmaise

K9kodi said:


> Most of the times the dogs issues are human related. haha....Ive always been taught, a dog will only progress to your level of acceptability.


For sure !........


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## Breck

Bryan Parks said:


> There is a discussion on a FB group going on about noisy dogs. I found this thread to be very interesting. Thought I would bring it back. Any conclusion to the dog in question?


. 
The dogs owner hasn't posted for 2 1/2 years. The last being on this thread. 
Many, when faced with a difficult problem to solve which takes much time and dedication simply give up.
Maybe Matt stuck to it and was ultimately successful, who knows.


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## _cledus_

Bryan Parks said:


> There is a discussion on a FB group going on about noisy dogs. I found this thread to be very interesting. Thought I would bring it back. Any conclusion to the dog in question?


Lots of cool info here, thanks for sharing it!


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