# Breeding Question - First litter. AI vs Natural



## DogsNDawgs (Jul 15, 2016)

I can not seem to find threads on this topic but I swear I have seen them before. My bitch just turned 2. Depending on her accomplishment and health clearances I would like to breed her in at age 3 or 4, maybe later. And if she does not achieve them, then I will not breed her. This would be her first litter and mine. With that said I am trying to research, study, ask questions and do everything I can to be prepared for if and when the time comes. Finding the right stud (selection/preference, potential permission, location, living or not, and access b/c of campaigning) does not seem to be all that easy. 

So my question/s is: For my dog, for it to be her first litter. Why or why not do AI? Or why or why not do a natural breeding?

Thank you all for your knowledge and advice.


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

You answered a lot of the "why or why not do AI" question in your list of finding the right stud. If he's not living or not available due to travel you're stuck with AI. On the other hand if he's available why not go for the real McCoy? 

Swack


----------



## DogsNDawgs (Jul 15, 2016)

I ask because I am under the impression that the chance of AI on a first time dog is less successful than if she has already had a litter.


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Hadn't heard that one. I believe it's all about the timing. Fresh sperm cells meet eggs ready to fertilize. 

I don't see an issue with a maiden bitch and AI. Progesterone testing will tell you when it time.

Swack


----------



## joeyrhoades (Feb 23, 2015)

Yes, my parents are the same as you. We breed just for us, so once a dog and done.

The first time we tried AI and it did not work. As far as research, i have no idea.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The only AI that has ever worked for me is TCI, but then that can be tricky on a first time bitch. People will tell you they have great success, but I'm not alone in breeders going for natural the first time.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Depends on what type of AI you mean. A lot of stud dogs owners now want side by side AI, which, providing progesterone testing is done and timing is correct, is every bit as effective as natural cover. 
Chilled shipped can be less effective.
Frozen semen, you'd better have a great repro vet.


----------



## Rob DeHaven (Jan 6, 2003)

What if frozen is the only way to go? If you use Surgical AI would you feel pretty confident about the breeding being successful?


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

hotel4dogs said:


> Depends on what type of AI you mean. A lot of stud dogs owners now want side by side AI, which, providing progesterone testing is done and timing is correct, is every bit as effective as natural cover.
> Chilled shipped can be less effective.
> Frozen semen, you'd better have a great repro vet.


Not in the field world it isn't as popular or effective. For some reason, many field bitches do have problems with AI, progesterones and all, and for some reason bench bitches do not because they do side by side all the time. This is 37 years of experience, even with a repro specialist, unless it's surgical or TCI. Believe what you want, but I will not do them anymore. I think it's lack of a tie with a more muscular female. I got talked into TCI being as effective, and it has been, because they simulate a tie. JMHO.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Rob DeHaven said:


> What if frozen is the only way to go? If you use Surgical AI would you feel pretty confident about the breeding being successful?


I would do frozen surgical before I would do side by side or chilled semen. If I had chilled semen I would still do a surgical because I hate to waste money or breedings. I was going to try a frozen TCI on a maiden bitch with surgical as a back up, but I decided to wait until my stud comes home and do natural

Worst is one pup and needing a c-section. Happened to me on side by side.


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

I've had mixed results with limited (3) AI's. All were side-by-side's. I had a litter of 2, a litter of 3, and a litter of 9. 

I prefer natural cover and unless I'm forced to do otherwise I'm sticking to the old-fashioned, time proven, down and dirty.

As an aside, the OP mentioned he may wait until maybe later than the age of 4 for his bitch's first breeding. I wouldn't want to wait past age 3 or 4 for a first breeding. I wonder what others might think.

Swack


----------



## DogsNDawgs (Jul 15, 2016)

Thank you all for your input. I am sure there are more experiences and opinions out there, I look forward to hearing about them.

My bitch is with a HT pro and has been since about 5 1/2 months. She is extremely muscular, as muscular as some of the males they have in training.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Have done chilled surgical AI, and frozen surgical AI, both resulted in litters. Have done natural which have resulted in litters, Have done 1 side by side AI, no litter. I really think that side by side AI is one of those mythical things that some people have a knack for as I know a lady that does them all the time with her boys and get litters. But hasn't worked out in my experience, so if you can't do natural; which to me is better as you usually get more than 1 tie over a few days; and usually doesn't require strict progesterone timing. Then I'd do surgical or trans-cervical added benefit with surgical or trans you don't have to do multiple AIs over several days; if timing is right one usually does the job.

Minimum age for my girls is 4yrs. but usually I don't get around to it until 6ish, had one with 1st litter at 8yrs; still seemed to work out well (11 pups). Really don't think early is necessary in field dogs, they are usually in such good shape they handle pregnancy well, regardless of age.


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

TCI frozen semen. 10 puppies. I can't speak to the field bitches not doing as well with AI but my girls are just fine. Surgical, TCI, AI. I'm very lucky. I've actually never done a natural. Gasp! I just had a good friend do a frozen on a young virgin Bitch. Fertile bitch line. Semen wasn't great. At least 6 puppies. 

I used to wait until 4 for a first litter. I am reconsidering that now. Life and cycles get in the way of things and pregnancies on older bitches are harder to get. So I want to maximize my girls fertility. Having girls is a pain in the butt. Lots to think about and plan around. Cycles, competing, showing, puppies. It's something I have to constantly think about.


----------



## cowdoc87 (Dec 18, 2014)

Dogs are most fertile when young, so that unfortunately means your best outcome fertility-wise is to breed way before she's finished running competitively. The more times they cycle, the more stuff that can start to go wrong. We've gotten completely away from asking the question, "Do I care if my dog can breed naturally (and have a litter naturally)?", which is at least partially genetic. I know our reproductive technology is wonderful but I question how good it is for the long term health of the breed. (sorry for the rant). 
So we determine when its time to breed by blood progesterone tests, then decide how we get the boys to the eggs. Natural breeding would be best as far as most likely to give the biggest litter, and lets us know if the bitch actually CAN or WILL accept a male. The male deposits the semen in the front of the vagina, so the sperm still have to swim through the cervix, though with the the "TIE", they are encouraged to swim in the right direction, I suppose. "Side by side" is where the male is collected and the semen is deposited by pipette either into the front of the vagina, or into the uterus itself (trans-cervical insemination,or TCI). The first method is done blindly, is fairly easy to do, but operator error does come into play, and I suppose some might struggle with it and have variable success. The second method (TCI) requires an endoscope, special pipettes, and sometimes sedation, so is done more by the repro specialists. "Surgical insemination" is where the bitch is anesthetized, her abdomen opened up, and the semen is literally injected into both sides of the uterus. The surgical method is most commonly used with frozen semen. In the right hands I doubt there's much difference in success rates of each method, but it makes sense that nature might lead the way somewhat, and after that it makes sense that the closer you can put the boys to the eggs, the better your chances are. And don't forget the boys. Its just as important to know the semen quality-how many good swimmers there are- and that often determines to what lengths we need to go to have our best chance at getting a pregnancy. 
Personally, if you have access to a good male , I think it wise to get a natural breeding just to prove the bitch is capable of it, then after that, do whatever you want. I'd recommend finding a vet that is comfortable with canine repro and having a good chat. Good luck


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

I had one female due to circumstances had surgical AI first breeding and we got pups.

I have done several side-by-side AIs for various reasons, all resulted in pups. The one time I did an AI with fresh chilled I did not get pups.

It does not matter if it is her first time--either she is fertile or she isn't. If you are not sure, then for cost reasons, it would be more logical to do natural or side-by-side rather than shipping chilled or frozen.

Meredith


----------



## Bill Stoune (Jul 18, 2011)

I did a TCI, with frozen, on a maiden bitch 5 years old. She had a litter of 6. 
I would take Nancy P's advice on breeding/ whelping.


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Cowdoc, I don't worry about the being able to breed naturally thing. I have two neutered males here that regardless of age and time since neutering help the girls figure it out! Nothing like an 11 year old tieing with a girl in the front yard with the neighbors kids out....great sex education. In a serious note, re your rant we have a breed I don't think it's going to be an issue with (losing natural breeding ability). If we do it's going to be related to temperament issues. Though I don't do naturals myself I've been around enough where there are some mean bitches that I don't care how talented they are, I wouldn't breed. That concerns me more. And the lack of mothering ability concerns me too. Sorry. If she can't be bothered to want to spend time in the whelping box for 4-6 weeks then I don't want her either. My rant....


----------



## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I have an FC-AFC bitch that I have tried 3 side by sides with. First at 5 years old, second at 6 YO and the last at 7 YO. All have been unsuccessful. We tried a natural breeding all 3 times but for some reason they could not tie. We did progesterone and the timing was right. Did side by sides after unsuccessful ties. After $10,000 in vet expenses trying to breed the dog, I spayed her last fall. After spaying, the uterus looked perfect and the vet could not explain why the bitch could not conceive. So I am not helping much, but the only explanation I have gotten is the really athletic dogs are hard to breed.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I can't speak to field bitches not doing as well with AI either, maybe it's just a genetic thing in some lines? My boy has been bred somewhat extensively to both field and show bitches, the only litter that didn't take was to a tweener bitch, and we knew it wasn't going to take as we were late with the breeding due to delayed travel on her part. 
We've worked with 5 different repro vets, all have simulated a tie, regardless of AI method, although we haven't done a frozen. Maybe that explains the success. 
One thing I have noticed, and it just may be coincidence, is that the field bitches seem to have much larger litters. All of his field breedings have resulted in a minimum of 11 puppies. Show breedings seem to average 6-8. 



suepuff said:


> TCI frozen semen. 10 puppies. I can't speak to the field bitches not doing as well with AI but my girls are just fine. Surgical, TCI, AI. I'm very lucky. I've actually never done a natural. Gasp! I just had a good friend do a frozen on a young virgin Bitch. Fertile bitch line. Semen wasn't great. At least 6 puppies.
> 
> I used to wait until 4 for a first litter. I am reconsidering that now. Life and cycles get in the way of things and pregnancies on older bitches are harder to get. So I want to maximize my girls fertility. Having girls is a pain in the butt. Lots to think about and plan around. Cycles, competing, showing, puppies. It's something I have to constantly think about.


----------



## Betty Sellers (Jul 2, 2015)

Maybe this was not the norm but we just had a litter of 11 born from a maiden bitch with irregular cycles, by 1 AI breeding (side by side). Progresterone test showed we should breed her in 2-3 days, did that AI, as she didn't show much readiness. (day 6). 2 days later, she was out of heat. The puppies turned 6 weeks yesterday.


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Interesting about how we simulate the tie and how it doesn't matter...the source is a journal article. 

http://www.thedogplace.org/REPRODUCTION/SpeedySperm_White-Andrews-07.asp


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I can't speak to field bitches not doing as well with AI either, maybe it's just a genetic thing in some lines?


I doubt it's genetic. I had 2 bitches bred natural, one had 12 and the other 10. Bred chilled semen by both ends very well known top repro vets and one had zero and the other one 1 leading to a c-section.


----------



## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

I think the reason some people avoid shipping semen for a first breeding is that there are additional costs: shipping the semen and getting the insemination done. The thought is why spend extra money before you know if she can even get pregnant. Minimize costs until you are sure she can carry a litter. But they can still have problems following the first litter. 

I've bred one maiden bitch with frozen semen with a TCI. Not the best repro vet I learned later. And she did not have a litter. Next litter was a natural breeding, had 8 pups. Next bred frozen back to original stud with surgical, 8 pups. One dead pup was retained, caused infection in uterus, had to be c-sectioned and spayed. 

I do side by side AIs frequently myself for my studs- 7or 8 so far. Done on field and show Labs. So far smallest litter on "normal" females was 8. We did breed an older field female that was losing her fertility- AI'ed and got 3 pups. Repeated breeding AI'ed got no pups. She was bred at least once more time and never had another litter. So I don't really count her.


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

suepuff said:


> Interesting about how we simulate the tie and how it doesn't matter...the source is a journal article.
> 
> http://www.thedogplace.org/REPRODUCTION/SpeedySperm_White-Andrews-07.asp


Sue,

Very interesting. I got to thinking back to the three litters from side-by-side AI I mentioned earlier. For the litter with 9 pups I elevated her hindquarters and inserted a gloved finger to simulate a tie. 

I didn't do this in the other two AI's resulting in two and three pups.

I know the sample size is too small to make any valid conclusions, but if I have to do an AI again I'd strongly consider simulating a tie. According to the study you reference it makes no difference, so I conclude it wouldn't hurt and it might make me feel better if nothing else!

Swack


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

I still do it too Swack. Old habits.....just happened to see this article though and thought it was interesting.


----------



## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

DogsNDawgs said:


> I can not seem to find threads on this topic but I swear I have seen them before. My bitch just turned 2. Depending on her accomplishment and health clearances I would like to breed her in at age 3 or 4, maybe later. And if she does not achieve them, then I will not breed her. This would be her first litter and mine. With that said I am trying to research, study, ask questions and do everything I can to be prepared for if and when the time comes. Finding the right stud (selection/preference, potential permission, location, living or not, and access b/c of campaigning) does not seem to be all that easy.
> 
> So my question/s is: For my dog, for it to be her first litter. Why or why not do AI? Or why or why not do a natural breeding?
> 
> Thank you all for your knowledge and advice.


Hey DogsNDawgs,

Go talk to Ana Adams, Hamby Road Animal Hospital In Alpharetta.
She is one of the best repro vets in the country and right in your back yard.
I personally prefer natural breeding but have had good success with AI and help from Dr. Ana

Good Luck


----------



## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

My sire / donor just did a side by side AI to a field bred maiden bitch (both sire and bitch will turn 4 y.o. this year). Motility of stud';s sperm was excellent. The bitch would not stand but we had monitored her progesterone levels and conducted the side by side during her most fertile period. Two separate side by sides were conducted two days apart. The bitch is currently pregnant and ultrasound testing has indicated a minimum of 4 pups and likely some more, that not being completely discernible. Pups are due some time around 4/27.&#55357;&#56397;. Both the sire and bitch are field bred Labs.

Cheers,
Irishwhistler☘


----------



## Scott Krueger (Jan 25, 2008)

mine is due the 14th. went natural. i have heard that the # number of pups is not as high also with AI????? thought i heard limited to 6 or so for some reason????


----------



## ccox (Feb 28, 2007)

I have found that a lot of the owners of nice field trial males will only do AI. Not sure how close you are to Alpharetta, but Dr Ana Adams is one of the best in AI. I used her last year with a bitch that had never been bred and had 7 pups. Good luck.


----------



## Brenttos (Dec 27, 2016)

Let me give you advice as a non lab breeder. I own/breed/show French Bulldogs and we only AI. I have had over 30+ litters in 9 years between myself and my partner. I've also studded out my males around 40 times, and I'm the one who does the AIs on the female. So now to the question at hand, to me a AI is much faster and easier than a natural tie. I progesterone females and begin to breed at a 5.0 on the Idex scale. I have missed 3-5 breedings in 9 years, those were due to bitches coming in heat and I don't take them in soon enough for the progesterone and I try to breed them at a very high number. The ONLY 2 needs I see for a surgical is 1. Frozen semen or 2. High progesterone levels(too high for AI). Some males do need a teaser bitch and I have seen males give a higher quality collection with a teaser present vs without. I will say I know in Labs people want the females to be proven ch or able to be health tested. I agree with both BUT the older the female the less chance of a successful breeding. The estrogen levels begin to suffer which in turn fertility begins to drastically decrease in my opinion. I will collect male spin semen down in a centerfuge, remove all unnecessary fluid and inject about 1cc of the actual sperm taken from a 5-6cc collection. This topic will give you so many opinions but like I tell everyone do what's best for you!


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

All I can tell you is a very well known breeder of Labs also has Frenchies which she AI's side by side, but she basically will drive to breed natural, and breeds frozen TCI. but won't AI side by side anymore. TCI and surgical puts the semen where it needs to be to fertilize the eggs and with AI they have to travel. I don't know why there is a difference with field dogs, but there is for many breeders, and the reproduction specialists even recommend natural the first time. Perhaps younger females do better with AI because they tend to have bigger litters when they are young but not always. Later is usually better with TCI. We have waited an extra day if the numbers were not high enough.


----------



## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

I am still a little bit of a believer that it's genetic.

Our one female was from a big litter who's dam also came from a dam of large litters. She only cycles once a year though.
First breeding at 2, AI Frozen 15 year old semen. Produced 14 pups
Second breeding at 4, AI Frozen. Produced 13 pups
Third breeding at 5, Natural, but timed. Expecting 10 pups anytime now.

Another female we had, cycled every 18-24 months for the most part in her whole life had 5 cycles. Bred on 4 cycles, produced 3 pups (natural), 7 pups (frozen AI), 3 pups (natural), 1 pup (fresh side by side). All breedings timed.

Obviously nothing scientific, but food for thought.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Bally's Gun Dogs said:


> I am still a little bit of a believer that it's genetic.


I DO believe numbers, (eggs released and puppies produced) are genetic and it may happen if you continue to keep females from those small producers. The reference to genetic was not being able to get bred by AI. 



> > I can't speak to field bitches not doing as well with AI either, maybe it's just a genetic thing in some lines?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dr Dove did the insemination there and he did say that some females just won't take with AI but he didn't know why at that time. She was taken for a natural and transported to me and had a big litter. 

I have one that can't seem to have more than a small litter, 4-6, that is just her. I had one that never had more than 2-5. I just don't keep a female from them unless I'm willing to accept the small litters.


----------



## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Bally's Gun Dogs said:


> I am still a little bit of a believer that it's genetic.
> 
> Our one female was from a big litter who's dam also came from a dam of large litters. She only cycles once a year though.
> First breeding at 2, AI Frozen 15 year old semen. Produced 14 pups
> ...


One thing that stand out in this post is how infrequently the females went into heat. The more heats the less the fertility. I just bred my 4.5 yr old maiden female to a deceased sire with frozen semen. She did not go into heat until after 18 months of age, plus we skipped a heat using milberone last spring for trial season. I use Dr. Hutchison in the Cleveland, one of the top repro vets in the nation. When we discussed whether to do a TCI or go surgical for the breeding, the fact she had fewer heats made a big difference, basically she had the uterus of a 3 yr old because of the decreased number of heats. He said an older dog would definitely go surgical so he can evaluate the uterus. Going thru heat puts a stress on the uterus that adds up over time and decreases the fertility. Its a primary factor.
Another 4.5 yr old dog that started that at 6 months, cycled every 6 months, may not be as easily bred. 

So you just cannot put an "age" as to when to do one vs the other, each case has to be evaluated individually. In my opinion a bitch that has a very hard time getting bred by any method is one that we should REALLY consider not breeding. Also can she deliver easily and is a good mom, all those thing should be evaluated also.

by the way, my bitch is pregnant. Just confirmed yesterday.


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Nate, your second to last paragraph is right on. They need to be reproductively sound and good mothers. 

Nancy, where are you?

Sue


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Nancy, where are you?


SE Wisconsin. My Repro Vet follows Dr Hutchinson's views closely.


----------



## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

I have known many surgical AI's to throw 10 or more. The deciding factors are fertility of the bitch, quality of the sperm and the expertise of the vet doing the surgery. Not all repro vets are equal in expertise. Many are more comfortable with side by sides because the sperm live longer. Timing in surgical AI is critical because you have a very narrow window and most of your run of the mill repro vets cannot successfully do this time after time. There are vets that go to school an extra 4 years to learn technique and these are called theriogenologist


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

A top repro vet is your best chance at increasing the size of or in some cases, having a litter at all. The thing about our working retrievers: most good breedings are not selected for fertility, ease of whelping and rearing unless churning out puppies is the primary focus. Of people who want the best, I doubt those are among their primary considerations, either.


----------



## gregjohnson (Nov 30, 2006)

My one experience with frozen surgical AI didn't go very well with a first time breeding. I was scheduled to be out of town so boarded my female with the repo vet for one week prior to breeding, based on progestrone testing they thought they bred her at the appropriate time. Unfortunately no puppies - they confirmed no problems with her or the semen but suggested a natural breeding next time. The next time she came in heat we attempted a natural breeding, the male struggled to get a tie in spite of her standing great and him being an experienced breeder. We decided to go to vet for a side by side AI and were rewarded with a litter of 12 puppies.


----------

