# FT Goldens then and now =Barty?



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

The Lab thread got me thinking of this. It seems most of the current great FT Goldens are closely or not too distantly descended from Holway Barty or Topbrass Cotton (son of Barty) on both sides.

Are current FC AFC Goldens that much different from Barty, the son of two English FTCH? I know English trial standards have changed as well as US standards, but the genes of Barty or Cotton can't be that much different from current FT Goldens. Or do you think they are? If not, perhaps we should help the breed pool on both sides of the pond by breeding US to UK. 

Thoughts? Reflections on current FT Goldens vs Past?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Someone must have imported again since?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Holway Stubbledown Jolly was a import in the late 1950's owned by Tom Lucas. He was a trial dog. I bredto his son Jolly Again of ouimette he was a field trial dog. I then had a Barty bitch bred four times . Her field line went back to the old Stilrovin lines. In recent years there have been other attempts from across the pond, none have really took? There are some very knowledgable folks that frequent this forum you might bring them forth with this thread! It's got potential to over shadow those black rascals!


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Good stuff, Earl!


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Would be great reading.. Hope this thread does take off! Agree, great post, Earl  

Judy


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Jennifer.I`m gonna post some pics soon.Dad ran a golden back in the early 70`sFC,Bonnybrookes tuff and a half....this little guy was only about 45 lbs and a ball of fire and not tuff like all the good ones were back then.Some of the older guys know what I mean by tuff.I`ll get his pedigree also.He also won the Gold Whistle in canada being I believe the first golden to do that.When he was runing Andy (call name) the flood gates opened up and we were loaded up with goldens for a while,but never had anything like him. Jim


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I had a Barty grandson that I wanted to trial. He was a handful but an obedience class favorite. I do have flattering photos that I will try to post. Unfortunately, certain domestic issues prevented me from entering the field trial world. (Several understand, I'm sure.) A lot of dog with a lot of go. Since then that is all that I want.


My dog,Twin Branch Bayside Dasher, call name Dasher.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Jennifer.I`m gonna post some pics soon.Dad ran a golden back in the early 70`sFC,Bonnybrookes tuff and a half....this little guy was only about 45 lbs and a ball of fire and not tuff like all the good ones were back then.Some of the older guys know what I mean by tuff.I`ll get his pedigree also.He also won the Gold Whistle in canada being I believe the first golden to do that.When he was runing Andy (call name) the flood gates opened up and we were loaded up with goldens for a while,but never had anything like him. Jim


Jolly again of Ouillmette call name was Tuffy..Bonnie Brooks was Dick Kerns kennel name trained with him often. There are a number of very talented dogs from that line. It is a English line bred off of Tuffy, pre Barty. There was some HD in those lines too. Now get Wayne Anderson involved with the Minnesota Mafia bunch, he is on this forum along with Mickey Strandberg and the Midwest Goldens history will come out of the closet. Wayne and Mickey quit lurking!


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Dick Kerns!!!Yea......man Earl you and Bon are in a class of your own on pedigrees!! Jim


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Get the Canuckiller going too! Lots of old Golden folk need to be outed from the Midwest. Many started in Goldens and now are just remembered by the black rascals (and don't mean River Oaks Rascal or Rays Rascal). This where it all started, Barrington iilinois, Wadsworth, Illinois, Tri State in Minnesota, Wisconsin Amateur, St. Louis,Mo., somemof the oldest clubs in the country, often dominated by Great Goldens. Frisbie, Weber, Dick Sampson, Billy Voight, Jim's dad from the Ohio crew, lets here it from the Midwest Mecca.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Earl correct me if I`m wrong but most of the decent ones we had could get aggressive under pressure,have only had a few in here lately but am still seein it!!!!


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

jd6400 said:


> Jennifer.I`m gonna post some pics soon.Dad ran a golden back in the early 70`sFC,Bonnybrookes tuff and a half....this little guy was only about 45 lbs and a ball of fire and not tuff like all the good ones were back then.Some of the older guys know what I mean by tuff.I`ll get his pedigree also.He also won the Gold Whistle in canada being I believe the first golden to do that.When he was runing Andy (call name) the flood gates opened up and we were loaded up with goldens for a while,but never had anything like him. Jim


Couldn't help myself  .........

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=18666

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=495 this, too if I got it right "Tuffy"


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

My only brush with Goldens spoiled me because he was a great dog...I got to see Dual Ch AFC Tigathoes Funky Farquar up close and personal (as in he lived with the family in College Station)..first time I saw him he slept overnight with us in Southern Calif..he would have been the penultimate chick magnet if I had been a little quicker, he was that good looking, big, bold and was a marking sonofagun...obviously since he won the National Derby Championship in '73...but he and his O/H couldnt run blinds to save their lives, until they met Clint...he had only a single placement when running the big stakes. Clint taught Quar and Dottie how to run sight blinds, and nothing but sight blinds, only threw him a mark here and there because he would pin everything anyhow..within 3 months Quar was running good blinds, and took a second in the Open in Phoenix in Feb '75, he and Dottie started finishing trials and placing highlighted by a big win in the Open in No Florida that fall...I think Quar ended up with 52 AA points in his career, qualified for two or three nationals...the only shame was that wasnt a deeper pool of quality dams to breed him to..

He was a heck of a good boy, if I ever get my hands on the family archives of pictures buried deep in an Austin garage I will scan and post the pics of him, albeit most are in B/W


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> Couldn't help myself  .........
> 
> http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=18666


Wow thanks Judy! It was the only time I saw dad break down in his life when we lost him!!!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Earl correct me if I`m wrong but most of the decent ones we had could get aggressive under pressure,have only had a few in here lately but am still seein it!!!!


Unfortunately yes, the older lines were tough no nonsense dogs that were not afraid of taking you on and don't mean fear bitting! I was a military police service dog trainer and handler, old school dogs, swung my share of them and you know what I mean. Been bitten my share of times, worse bites got were from training the sweet gentle Goldens, bitches were the worse. That and the e collar has mostly diminished along with better breeding that type of behavior in all of the retriever breeds in my opinion.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

jd6400 said:


> Wow thanks Judy! It was the only time I saw dad break down in his life when we lost him!!!


Great to know how much he was cherished. Some heartbreaking short lives..in those great old lines, for various reasons. Just really tugs at the heart..probably due to the history there. 

A little off subject, but this is a reminder to us all to be careful  http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=15812 "Red"

Wish there were photos  ..on K9 Data as well. They are such a great tribute in my humble opinion. 

This is a great thread..great read...


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Man you and me both!!!Every scar on my hand is from a golden,except one bad one from a Bigstone lab....Jim


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Wow thanks Judy! It was the only time I saw dad break down in his life when we lost him!!!


The bottom half , Nancy' Golden Dawn , I had a half sister to her Huntress of Dillowspat, were duck hunting dogs, never trialed and owned by the owner of Stietz resort in Antioch Illinois. Pat was my first Golden born Dec 1963 she was the sanction trial queen poor folks field trials. She had 27 trial placements derby through open.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> Great to know how much he was cherished.
> 
> A little off subject, but this is a reminder to us all to be careful  http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=15812


Yea,now I know how Bon is gettin his info,haaa!!! I`m rather illiterate and been pullin names off the top of my head..not knowing for sure.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> The bottom half , Nancy' Golden Dawn , I had a half sister to her Huntress of Dillowspat, were duck hunting dogs, never trialed and owned by the owner of Stietz resort in Antioch Illinois. Pat was my first Golden born Dec 1963 she was the sanction trial queen poor folks field trials. She had 27 trial placements derby through open.


Impressive,Earl!


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

jd6400 said:


> Yea,now I know how Bon is gettin his info,haaa!!! I`m rather illiterate and been pullin names off the top of my head..not knowing for sure.


Well, pullin names off the top of your head ...is leading to great reading!! Earl always has posts of huge interest, and good training advice as well. 

Housebound today with poor driving conditions..snowstorm, so this is quality time right here!!! Thanks!! 

Thank you for starting this, Jen!! ..making my day  

Judy


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Judy, I wasn't there when "Red" died BUT I can tell you that Harold B. loved his "red" dogs .
I had the prviledge of judging with him, and breeding to his "Dandy". Class act guy!!
Sue


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Judy, I wasn't there when "Red" died BUT I can tell you that Harold B. loved his "red" dogs .
> I had the prviledge of judging with him, and breeding to his "Dandy". Class act guy!!
> Sue


Where have you been you are more well versed then me!


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Earl,dad had another he ran it was mrs strouds,believe it was FC too? late 70`s early 80`s ?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Judy Chute said:


> Couldn't help myself  .........
> 
> http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=18666
> 
> http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=495 this, too if I got it right "Tuffy"


I bred to Tuffy twice I guess, I forgot, Marshlands Golden Sunshine Qaa I think Marvin Baumer bought one from that litter , he went black and has had his share of FC and AfC's I am outing him, but, think his wife was the Golden person.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Criquetpas said:


> The bottom half , Nancy' Golden Dawn , I had a half sister to her Huntress of Dillowspat, were duck hunting dogs, never trialed and owned by the owner of Stietz resort in Antioch Illinois. Pat was my first Golden born Dec 1963 she was the sanction trial queen poor folks field trials. She had 27 trial placements derby through open.


Nancy's Golden Dawn http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=586, a great dam to produce three FC AFC's via repeat breedings to Tuffy..wow That was a great combination of pedigrees..actually pass all that on...

Nancy/"Peaches"..no siblings listed and Tuffy just one female sibling. Wonder if there were more..and might they have done well and also produced some great pups given the oportunity. The breed is fortunate for these two!!


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> Well, pullin names off the top of your head ...is leading to great reading!! Earl always has posts of huge interest, and good training advice as well.
> 
> Housebound today with poor driving conditions..snowstorm, so this is quality time right here!!! Thanks!!
> 
> ...


Who woulda thought 30 yrs ago we would be able to do this?Just think of the older folks that still don`t and what they could contribute.Billy V`s wife Diane had some good goldens back in the day too.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Earl,dad had another he ran it was mrs strouds,believe it was FC too? late 70`s early 80`s ?


I am getting old I will have to think about it thats East Coast stuff and I am a homeboy Midwest guy. Not many even know me outside this circuit. I was small potatoes, still am, compared to many in that period, just have a lot of useless information in my head and have rubbed elbows with some of the near great. Had more success in the late 1980's on with some nice black dogs. Many only know me as a Lab guy or the bitch Lab guy. I have been outed, just trying to get more accomplished Golden breeders, trainers, etc to come forward it's good for the sport!


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> I am getting old I will have to think about it thats East Coast stuff and I am a homeboy Midwest guy. Not many even know me outside this circuit. I was small potatoes, still am, compared to many in that period, just have a lot of useless information in my head and have rubbed elbows with some of the near great. Had more success in the late 1980's on with some nice black dogs. Many only know me as a Lab guy or the bitch Lab guy. I have been outed, just trying to get more accomplished Golden breeders, trainers, etc to come forward it's good for the sport!


Not useless info at all ........Jim


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Judy Chute said:


> Nancy's Golden Dawn (http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=586)...what a great dam to produce three FC AFC's via repeat breedings to Tuffy..wow That was a great combination of pedigrees..actually pass all that on...
> 
> Nancy/"Peaches"..no siblings listed and Tuffy just one female sibling. Wonder if there were more..and might they have done well and also produced some great pups given the oportunity. The breed is fortunate for these two!!


Peaches was a nice bitch, kinda small and more Helen's dog. Dick had his own way of doing things, very opinionated
And sometimes that spilled over in the trial world. I was one of his groupies so I had to sit in his kitchen, drink coffee after a training session and listen along with other groupies. Some of whom others would recognize names. We were just blue collar stiffs in a rich man's world, cops, teachers, firefighters, bodymen, electricians, printers, training our own dogs and looking for mentors. I along with others were in our twenties, early to Late. Dick was 40 plus or so.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Who woulda thought 30 yrs ago we would be able to do this?Just think of the older folks that still don`t and what they could contribute.Billy V`s wife Diane had some good goldens back in the day too.


Hmm like Bonnie Brooks Elmer when she was Diane Woods. Fastest Golden I have seen.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

jd6400 said:


> Earl,dad had another he ran it was mrs strouds,believe it was FC too? late 70`s early 80`s ?


......under other than Bonnie Brook kennel name?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

This is wonderful! Thanks for the great discussion. Got a rare opportunity to sleep in this morning on the west coast, and woke up to this history lesson!

Judy, thanks for posting the links to K9 data - unfortunately, my old lap top is not cooperating with the links, but should be able to see them tomorrow at work. Hope you survive the snow storm!!

So do you all think Barty changed the gene pool significantly from what it was before Barty? Obviously, he and Cotton are prolific producers and significant in the gene pool in that way, but what are your thoughts line wise. Or is that an impossible thing to know. Wonder if he was a quirk from the English line or a typical dog. Funny that June Atkinson let him go, wasn't he an older pup when Barbara Howard got him. Indicating that maybe June held on to him with hopes of a good dog - or, he was a left over. Not sure of that, just guessing. Will have to read Barbara's article on that again.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> Was it under other than Bonnie Brook kennel name?


Dang it Earl....I believe it was a Topbrass breeding?


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Judy, I wasn't there when "Red" died BUT I can tell you that Harold B. loved his "red" dogs .
> I had the prviledge of judging with him, and breeding to his "Dandy". Class act guy!!
> Sue


Is that..Dandy Boy Red***.....http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=4563 ? ooops...wrong owner...? ..


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Dang it Earl....I believe it was a Topbrass breeding?


Maybe Jackie did the breeding? Either way he was a heck of a dog. Everything isn't in the k 9 data but I have talked more about Goldens here then I have in 30 years. So my memory might need refreshing but Ced and the former Diane Woods owned him at one time? Snow is soft gonna train for awhile, be back.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Judy - finally got to see the K9 links and realize I'm focusing too much on Barty as there were other early imports from Holway and Stilrovin etc - and the dogs Earl mentioned.

Interesting reading!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Dang it Earl....I believe it was a Topbrass breeding?[/
> 
> Just checked he was bred by Richard Kerns and Torch bought him. Whew you had me scared for a moment! Thought I was losing it. Jackie came down the pike a little later a icon in her own right with her program.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Judy - finally got to see the K9 links and realize I'm focusing too much on Barty as there were other early imports from Holway and Stilrovin etc - and the dogs Earl mentioned.
> 
> Interesting reading!


If you go far enough back it gets real interesting, Gunnerman, Stilrovin then back to Speedwall Pluto and across the pond.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Jennifer Henion said:


> This is wonderful! Thanks for the great discussion. Got a rare opportunity to sleep in this morning on the west coast, and woke up to this history lesson!
> 
> Judy, thanks for posting the links to K9 data - unfortunately, my old lap top is not cooperating with the links, but should be able to see them tomorrow at work. Hope you survive the snow storm!!
> 
> So do you all think Barty changed the gene pool significantly from what it was before Barty? Obviously, he and Cotton are prolific producers and significant in the gene pool in that way, but what are your thoughts line wise. Or is that an impossible thing to know. Wonder if he was a quirk from the English line or a typical dog. Funny that June Atkinson let him go, wasn't he an older pup when Barbara Howard got him. Indicating that maybe June held on to him with hopes of a good dog - or, he was a left over. Not sure of that, just guessing. Will have to read Barbara's article on that again.


Well first...you had a lot of nerve sleeping in  ..while here we all are reading, typing our fingers raw..racking our brains, or rather other's like Earl's..  then trying to keep up with posted updates..!! 

We have 5+"of new sticky snow as of now..still coming down, the worst is supposedly happening thru the early evening...hard for you to empathize from the West Coast?  ..back a little later... I see a cup of coffee in my near future..LOL 

Judy


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Criquetpas said:


> If you go far enough back it gets real interesting, Gunnerman, Stilrovin then back to Speedwall Pluto and across the pond.


Oh!..will look, take more notice of Gunnerman.. Love the Stilrovin...Pluto ....


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

If you get the Golden Retriever News and check back through the last few years, there have been articles on some of the field Goldens from England, and in Sept/Oct 09 one on Holway and June Atkinson; more in N/D '10; in S/O '11 one on Ann Fowler and it gives some information about early Goldens D.L. really liked. In N/D '11 there is a write up on The Tigathoe Four with more info on Quar. 2012 has had a variety of articles on early Goldens including some of Torch's as well as in Sept/Oct on Ripp owned by Bill Connor. More are planned for 2013.

If anyone has old photos or information on some of the well known early Goldens, I would love to have you write me about it privately. I am working on some right at the moment and love to get additional data---especially personal knowledge about some of those wonderful Goldens.

A personal note---when I started trials, for some reason I seemed to always be #1 in the line up--no rotation and a "draw" was done. I remember asking Betty Wilkinson if she would mind holding Luke in the blind so I could watch the test dog run. She said "does he bite?"---- I thought she was kidding, then realized she wasn't. I had never seen or been around a Golden that bit. Later I saw a couple of the early ones being trained, and if I had been trained with the methods they were, I would have bitten as well! The same with some of the Labs----the brighter they were, it seemed the more they resented unfairness. I grew up riding, training and competing with horses, so was not naive about variations in training methods and philosophies. As training methods for retrievers evolved and progressed, many dogs who would have been washed out went on to have outstanding careers.

Glenda


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> Criquetpas said:
> 
> 
> > Topbrass...is that dog on K9Data?
> ...


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Glenda, thanks for noting the specific issues of GR News that would be of interest. Some time ago, I thought of purchasing the last few years worth, but then realized how expensive that would be. Having an idea of which to buy is helpful.

I hope Bon and Earl and JD will dig out some photos and stories for you to work with! Love your articles and sharing. And your insight about why the early dogs would bite! Makes sense to me!

As for the question of whether today's dogs are any different from those in UK, and whether outcrossing to their FT dogs would be beneficial - I guess Judy, Glenda and myself will have to make a trip over there for an indepth analysis!!! Anyone else want to tag along? Wouldn't that be so fun?! First round at the pub is on me!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> Judy Chute said:
> 
> 
> > Judy,topbrass was a kennel name of???? Jackie Mertens??? Bon where are you........
> ...


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I bred twice to Nancy Miner's "Buddy" and twice to Harold Bruniga's Sangamo Red. The time I spent at the kitchen table with both people is remembered fondly.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Let's not rehash or visit boot, shoot electrocute , yeah it existed and I am ashamed to have been part of it. Talk about the old dogs and their accomplishments. Thank you.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

jd6400 said:


> Judy Chute said:
> 
> 
> > Judy,topbrass was a kennel name of???? Jackie Mertens??? Bon where are you........
> ...


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Glenda,

A thought ... has anyone suggested to GRCA that they bundle the articles they have published in the past on the kennels, the breeders, and the Goldens of the past into one publication and market it? I think it would sell and could easily be Volume I of a series -- "The History of the Golden Retriever in America". Even with that title, it could include the early kennels, dogs, and breeders in England and elsewhere. 

Helen


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

helencalif said:


> Glenda,
> 
> A thought ... has anyone suggested to GRCA that they bundle the articles they have published in the past on the kennels, the breeders, and the Goldens of the past into one publication and market it? I think it would sell and could easily be Volume I of a series -- "The History of the Golden Retriever in America". Even with that title, it could include the early kennels, dogs, and breeders in England and elsewhere.
> 
> Helen


Great idea! I would pay for it.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Jennifer, there are more articles than what I mentioned. Write me privately re some that would interest you, give me your e-mail address, and I will see what I can do.

Helen---sounds like a great idea and I am doing a lot of articles aimed for the Archives re trying to pull up info on some of the top field Goldens. What has been dismaying is how hard it has been to track down information other than in bits and pieces. If anyone has anything, would love to get my hands on it. Will bring up your suggestion to the powers that be and see what response I get. My interest is only in the field Goldens----but if anyone were interested in conformation and some of the early top obedience Goldens, a lot of that information is there for the digging out in the old GRNews. Barb Branstad has been living in Kinko's copying info from the very early GRNs and sending it on to me. She has definitely been putting in the hours on this.

Actually, at the moment on working on CH-AFC Lorelei's Golden Rockbottom UD and hope to put it together with an interview on his breeder and the dogs in his kennels, Reinhard Bischoff. Hondo will be in the Mar-Apr '13 issue. Have other articles ready to go re Kate of Rocky-Vue, Squawkie Hill Dapper Dexter, Oakcreek Van Cleve, Beautywood's Tamarack and Shelter Cove Beauty with additional ones in the pipeline. These have all been field champions as well as one won the Canadian National and two won the US National Open.

In addition, am working on the history of Goldens who were Finalists in the Master Nationals. Tremendous thanks goes to Bruce Bachert who saw my lament on RTF about needing information----I have a large file box full of the data he sent on to me. He has proven to be a tremendous asset. What is proving very hard here is getting photos of some of the early Golden competitors.

Again--a cry from the heart---any bits and pieces of info you can send to me, old photos, personal stories about any of the old field Goldens, I would love to have them. 

Thanks.

Glenda


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

No idea how old Mike Lardy is, but I wonder if his father is still alive? I'll bet he is a wealth of information, since he had Handjem kennels with several great old goldies. Plus you have to think he ran and trained with any other great goldens of that time period.


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

Earl, you finally "flushed" me out after reading these responses. Bought my first Golden pup from Phil Uehling (sp?) in Onalaska, WI, in late 1960s. Kinike ("kin of Nike?"was Phil's kennel name, my pup's mother was "Nike," I remember. Always liked the Stilrovin line, and Vern Weber's Chief Sands (Bozo). Later bought Mioaks Prairie Storm (Stormy) from Vern Weber when his eyesight was failing and he could not see Stormy at distance on blinds. That is when Vern went to blacks, I think (easier to see). I've trained long enough (still do) with Darrell Frisbie to remember Ben ( FC/AFC Benjamin Rajah Frisbie) and his national derby champ Buddy. My thoughts on today's Goldens and field trials: Small Golden gene pool, but we are making progress. Don't see many slow-pokes or "land eye dominant" dogs any more.) Modern advances with e-collars, etc., have helped tremendously in training all breeds. (Yeah, I remember training in the "old days," not good). Training still fun, trials not so much--to damn competitive, cut-throat, and not enough true amateur trainers. (Look at set-ups by some of today's amateur judges, too many reflect training set-ups by their professional trainers). Sorry, enuf ranting...


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Wayne thanks hope your posts help. For those of you that don't know Wayne, he, Darell Frisbie, are probably some of the few Amateur trainers of Field Trial Goldens that have never abandoned the breed in the Country today. I salute them


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

wayne anderson said:


> Earl, you finally "flushed" me out after reading these responses. Bought my first Golden pup from Phil Uehling (sp?) in Onalaska, WI, in late 1960s. Kinike ("kin of Nike?"was Phil's kennel name, my pup's mother was "Nike," I remember. Always liked the Stilrovin line, and Vern Weber's Chief Sands (Bozo). Later bought Mioaks Prairie Storm (Stormy) from Vern Weber when his eyesight was failing and he could not see Stormy at distance on blinds. That is when Vern went to blacks, I think (easier to see). I've trained long enough (still do) with Darrell Frisbie to remember Ben ( FC/AFC Benjamin Rajah Frisbie) and his national derby champ Buddy. My thoughts on today's Goldens and field trials: Small Golden gene pool, but we are making progress. Don't see many slow-pokes or "land eye dominant" dogs any more.) Modern advances with e-collars, etc., have helped tremendously in training all breeds. (Yeah, I remember training in the "old days," not good). Training still fun, trials not so much--to damn competitive, cut-throat, and not enough true amateur trainers. (Look at set-ups by some of today's amateur judges, too many reflect training set-ups by their professional trainers). Sorry, enuf ranting...


Great post, Wayne! Thanks! Do you have any comparisons of 1960s line to todays model? Are they similar or very different? Glenda sent me some photos of Stilrovin's Rip Tide, which look VERY much like my current pup of this pedigree: www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=508101 She has a very classic look. Would be interested in your views of major changes to the field golden in the last 50 years!

Thanks again for contributing,
Jennifer


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I know that both Morgan and Mickey are lurkers. Come on you guys speak up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Sue


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Glenda sent me an article interviewing John Unbehaun that helped answer some questions about the comparison of Then and Now:

Here is an excerpt:

Interviewer was Susan Kluesner

Q: What did those earlier Golden Retrievers look like compared to the field trial Goldens of today?

A:The goldens back in the early 1970s tended to be a little bigger, more of a golden color and a big blocky head. Seems to me when the Holway Barty puppies started to appear on the scene the speed of the field goldens picked up, but the size got smaller and the dogs got lighter in color. They also hunted in a quicker pattern. One of the fastest dogs I have trained with was Hawwkeye's Indean Red owned by Robert Von Hayden. He was about 45 pounds and faster than most labs. He was the first golden I saw that was of this whole new type of dog. But they would go all day long.

Q: Some people say these "old" goldens could not be competitive in today's field trials. You trained and ran with these dogs (and said earlier in the interview that was he was still competing in OPen in 2003). Do you think that's true?

A: Certainly they could be competitive. No doubt about it. Marking is marking. Those early Goldens would be as competitive today as they were then. They were that good.

In the article John said he had trained with Mike Lardy, Jackie Mertens and Torch Flinn among many other greats. Said when Lardy first started, he had a van full of four goldens that he competed with. He also said Topbrass Cotton was slow on returns!!

Great stuff!!! Thanks Glenda!

Jen


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> In the article John said he had trained with Mike Lardy, Jackie Mertens and Torch Flinn among many other greats. Said when Lardy first started, he had a van full of four goldens that he competed with. He also said Topbrass Cotton was slow on returns!!


I've heard that Cotton was two different dogs more or less. In his early years he was supposed to be as fast going out and back as any dog. However, as he aged, he slowed down.

I once overheard Mike L. say that Cotton was perhaps the best marking dog of his time. He related that once he ran an experiment at the 1st series of an open. He timed every dog from release to bird delivery of the last bird. While Cotton didn't dash out and back, he had the shortest total time because he went directly to each and every bird and never had to even indicate a hunt. He just went out and picked up the birds. At least that's the way I remember it but I wasn't directly involved in the conversation, merely listening.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> I once overheard Mike L. say that Cotton was perhaps the best marking dog of his time. He related that once he ran an experiment at the 1st series of an open. He timed every dog from release to bird delivery of the last bird. While Cotton didn't dash out and back, he had the shortest total time because he went directly to each and every bird and never had to even indicate a hunt. He just went out and picked up the birds. At least that's the way I remember it but I wasn't directly involved in the conversation, merely listening.


I heard Mike tell that story at a seminar in WI ten years or so ago. Someone asked about Cotton being slow and that was his response.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

It is kind of interesting to look at the connections in the pedigrees that have been mentioned. I got my first Golden (from a puppy farm) in 1968, and didn't start really learning some about field Goldens until just before I got a Ki son in 1975. Barty was whelped in 1971, so his record was already speaking for itself by the time I started my "involvement". 

My original "impression" was that Barty was supposed to add "speed" to the equation, but I was later told (never saw Barty, so don't know for sure) that it was for his marking ability that he became sought after. It was discussed back then whether the English breeders had introduced some Spaniel into their Goldens along the way, which was allowed in the UK if certain rules are followed & a certain number of generations are then bred true. Maybe someone from the UK can step in and explain that process. I saw photos of a Barty litter, bred by Torch Flinn, around 1975 where the pups had lots of freckles on their faces; and I heard of white from other breedings. This, I suspect, is what led to the thought that some spaniel (maybe Brittany?) had been incorporated somewhere along the line.

Bonnie Brooks Red and BB Elmer were full brothers, though from different breedings. When you look at their sire's pedigree (Tuffy), he was already 1/2 English in a combo of Holway & Stubblesdown.

Carma Futhey had also imported a full sister to Barty, Holway Joyful***(whelped 1969, 2 years earlier than Barty). Joyful was bred to BB Red in 1974 & 1977, so the offspring then had a pedigree that was 3/4 English in the first generation! And those offspring were quite accomplished in field trials in the US and Canada.

We also sometimes forget that Misty's Sungold Lad also had English ancestry, http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=547, His sire was English. I didn't look it up, but my recollection is that Lad was the winningest FT Golden until Cotton came along. When we look at Cotton's pedigree we see Barty as the sire and Elmer (litterbro to Red) still visible in the first 3 generations. Perhaps that combination of genes was a particularly good click. The Elmer/Chick offspring (through Ki, litterbro to Quar) was also known for being extremely good markers (as mentioned by Bon). Mercedes Hitchcock's Skylab Argus of Belvedere*** also had a somewhat similar pedigree to Cotton's with Barty as sire & Quar bringing in Elmer, and the further addition of Chief Sands as well on the dam side.

It seems that blending the imported Barty with North American stock whose UK connections were much farther back had some kind of "magic" to it. May be that's why there is some renewed interest in importation again now?

Also interesting is that this advantage of combining No American and UK field genes may be the root of a trend of recent years of other European countries importing No American field genes to blend with their European gene pool? It seems (just to my casual observation) that while importation is a two-way thing with Golden field genes, it is not so with conformation. UK/Euro dogs are imported to No America, but I have not noticed equal traffic going the other way. Since I do not deal much with the conformation lines, my observation there could be superficial.

It is pretty difficult to find a field trial Golden in No America today that does NOT have Barty in their pedigree somewhere.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Fantastic commentary, Gerry! Thanks for sharing your insights. Never knew of the spaniel theory. My pup has the white freckled feet. Can't imagine the white freckled faces you mentioned! Haven't noticed any white feet or patches on the photos of UK Goldens I've seen in recent years. I see quite a few of their photos on facebook etc as an observer of several UK Golden field clubs.

What got me thinking me of importing UK seed was the pedigrees of the UK FTCH studs of today. You can see many shared ancestors to those in Barty's and Stilrovin dog's pedigrees. Some of the Irish and Scottish field line types also look very similar to some of our field lines. At least the females do. FT CH Gorton's Red Ruby Rascal "Heidi" as an example.

So the history of similar successful ancestory along with the potential perceived benefit of outcross genes, seemed attractive to me. However, the UK dogs generally have a large COI number. Many are in the 25% to 35% range. Is it beneficial to breed a closely line bred bitch to an even closer line bred male even though they are of different lines? I don't know. Haven't taken the genetics classes yet. 

But I digress. Great post Gerry. Thanks for that!

Jennifer


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Paging back in my own pup's pedigree tonight, I also see that Carma Futhey had an English bred female born in 1970 FC AFC Kate of Rocky-Vue FDHF http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=18740


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> So the history of similar successful ancestory along with the potential perceived benefit of outcross genes, seemed attractive to me. However, the UK dogs generally have a large COI number. Many are in the 25% to 35% range. Is it beneficial to breed a closely line bred bitch to an even closer line bred male even though they are of different lines? I don't know. Haven't taken the genetics classes yet.


Since those common ancestors are far back in the pedigree, if you bred an import to a "typical" No American bitch, the COI would drop dramatically. However, that very low COI will also mean that the results could be highly unpredictable in many respects. This might mean that hips, elbows, etc. might be "off the wall" ... either good, if you get lucky; or not so good if you don't have the stars align for you.

Imagine the highly inbred dog as a jar of marbles of red, green, and yellow. If you have an inbred bitch whose marbles are blue, purple and orange, when you combine the two you get a much broader range of color in the mixture of the two. Now if the girl happens to be red, green and orange, you might get a better "click", since the offspring will have overlap of genes that might be for the good traits you want. Or they might overlap on the genes for things you do NOT want.

I bred to a UK import some years ago. The bitch was somewhat linebred around 10%; the sire 16-19%. The COI for the litter was .02%/.16% ... possibly could have gotten about that low by breeding to a Lab  All hip xrays came back "mild"; elbows all normal. So that was a dead end for me, since I had nothing to go forward with.

If you do a "radical" outcross you may not get the results you seek in the first generation, but you could bring out the traits you want by continuing to "mix 'n match" for more generations. Thus, you begin to establish your own unique "line".

Simple, huh? NOT! Good in theory, but dog breeding has a way of making you humble  

This is the principle that drives people to linebreeding ... that by getting genetic uniformity the results will be more predictable for the traits you wish to preserve. In theory, one has to also be prepared to discard those individuals who end up getting a "double dose" of the bad genes that are also available. OTOH, dogs like Cotton (COI .93%/1.63%) prove that outcrosses CAN be successful as well. And Cotton was pretty amazing ... I didn't know him, but Jackie's article in the GRCA News told the story of how incredibly good he was at the game.

As an "aside", k9data indicates that the breeding that produced Cotton was done 5 times. The first breeding produced his very capable sister, FC-AFC Mandy, T Markin' Masterpiece *** & Sharon Long's OTCH Topbrass Ric O Shay Barty. The 2nd breeding produced Cotton and some others of lesser achievements. Thus, the first two breedings seemed to produce the best of that gene combo.

We often ask the question of whether the "old" dogs could compete today. Someone mentioned earlier that they might be able to. And maybe they could ... after all, the dogs we have today came from the good genes those dogs gave us. The training techniques of today have advanced so much, if those dogs had the basics of intelligence, marking ability, and courage we sought then, with the benefit of training advances that have been made, they might actually be quite capable in challenging today's tests.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Excellent post Gerry!!!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Wonderful post, Gerry! Am hurrying to get ready for work, so can't write anything intelligent at the moment. But thanks and I'll re-visit and re-read in a couple of hours!!

Jennifer


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Glad you started the thread, Jen. Excellent information from those who have posted.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Gerry, from a trainers view point,I noticed 2 very distinct types in the goldens of early 70`s here.One was very soft and couldn`t handle the pressure of methods back then.The other was a very aggressive (tuff,not fear) that did very well understanding pressure but would let you know also!!!!Only get a couple through here lately and am seeing the best of both worlds.
I personally think yesterdays Goldens would do very well in todays world!!!!Just rambling on,Jim


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

jd6400

You're not on Team Golden, are you?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

No I`m not ,got a nuff problems with the peakes.....Haaaa, Jim


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

jd6400 said:


> Gerry, from a trainers view point,I noticed 2 very distinct types in the goldens of early 70`s here.One was very soft and couldn`t handle the pressure of methods back then.The other was a very aggressive (tuff,not fear) that did very well understanding pressure but would let you know also!!!!Only get a couple through here lately and am seeing the best of both worlds.
> I personally think yesterdays Goldens would do very well in todays world!!!!Just rambling on,Jim


I think that both of those types still exist today, but owners may have learned through early experience that the aggressive Golden can be a great liability in various ways, so are less likely to invest in such a dog today. Could be wrong, but it sounds like common sense to me. I think that breeders also became better at evaluating what works best overall, and made progressive changes in their breeding choices.

I think, too, that today's training methods, not the least of which, of course, is the intelligent use of the e-collar, makes a difference as well. I've had a couple of "sensitive" dogs and often found that physical correction was less harmful to their attitude than angry, verbal correction. Even today there are dogs who find that kind of "personal" correction more impactful than the "impersonal" collar correction, once they have the background of good teaching with the use of the e-collar. Because of the background training with the e-collar, the personal correction doesn't need to be as forceful as was more common before the near-universal use of the e-collar. It seems that when one can combine the e-collar with occasional "personal" corrections the dogs with some "conscience" can tread the line between toughness, without aggression or shutting down (softness). All in all, the advances in training techniques have given the dogs a better life, I think. FYI, I am a LOUSY trainer, but sometimes better as an observer 

Jim, it would be interesting to me to hear the opinions of experienced trainers to hear what differences you all see in the training/learning attitudes of the different breeds. I've often been told: a good dog is a good dog. Can agree with that.

However, does the psyche of each breed differ, so that it may take a different approach, here and there within the overall process, to bring out the best of that dog. Have also been told that the differences between individual dogs don't really align with the breed of dog; are more related to the individual dog, regardless of breed. For example, that there can be sensitive Labs (even Chessies?), and tough Goldens. Some (Lab breeder) have said that Labs have been specifically bred to take straight lines, while Goldens less so. So a Golden must use more "learning" to develop that skill in order to excel in field trials. So, maybe some of the differences are related to breeding? But maybe that is more within lines of dogs within a breed, rather than different breeds of dogs? What differences might exist in the ability of dogs to "not hold a grudge" for significant corrections? I'm already anticipating that these are subjective questions for which there could be different opinions based on different dog experiences.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

I can tell you this from my experience,todays chessy is not the chessy we had back in the late 60`s and early 70`s.They seem to be much softer now.
Don`t get many goldens but the goldens I`ve had have been a dream to work with.
Let me say this about the labs,now we are talkin about labs that hunt nov. dec. jan. in ice and very cold water in the north.We had very little negative feedback from clients in the old days about labs no-going in cold water.I get quite a few nowadays.
One of my jobs as a kid was introducing pups to water,it involved 2 or three pups and a puppy dummie walkin back to grandma`s pond and wading in letting them follow in running water then pitch the dummy,all would swim and two days of this that was water intro.Nowadays I can spend a week or two before I get the same results.
I realize,I`m not getting the cream of the crop to work with but alot in the old days weren`t either.
When a breed gets popular ,people see a way to make money and spit pups out not paying attention to ability around water,trainability (biddable) and a host of others and I think people need to pay closer attention NOWADAYS in their purchase. 

You mentioned "holding a grudge"in dogs ,my experience has been the chessy holds that honor!!!!

I`ll tell you a breed that I thught very highly of from a gundog standpoint is the Flatcoat.Just don`t see them anymore.
Back in the early 80`s I was approached by Vern Vogel (now deceased) to bring his showdog Flatcoats to senior or even MH level .HisKennel name was Bolingbroke Kennels.I might of had 6 or more at one time and there was a ton of natural ability in those dogs.Nuff rambling on my part...Jim


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

I have had an article on "Kate" (Carma's bitch) on my computer for a couple of years waiting to get some photos from Carma. But---Carma is still so sentimental about Kate, that I can't talk to her without Carma breaking down. As a result, going to go with what I have and it will be in the GRNs sometime this year.

Re Gerry (and she and I have many discussions--all interesting, at least to us) I have definitely found Goldens much more accepting of a correction with an e-collar as long as they understand why there is the correction and that the correction was fair compared to a personal correction. They tend to take personal corrections more to heart---ie, sort of a "look me in the eye" and explain to me why you just did what you did---very similar to what my Dad did to me. Re straight lines----I don't necessarily think it is a Lab vs. Golden thing. I have had Goldens that would keep going on a line forever and have had Labs who would do the same. Also, have had others of both breeds that really had to learn just what a straight line entailed. Just like with people---if you ever want to know how straight you walk, lay a track for a dog on a frosty field and then check it out. 

I have asked Jackie to do an additional write up re Cotton and have been asking others who either owned or had information about some of the famous old Goldens to write about them as well. Would love to have input from the Mid-West group because that is where so many of the top Goldens originated. Any suggestions or contact info, please send it to me privately. I certainly appreciate all the feedback there has been on this thread.

The articles about hunting with Goldens such as done by John and Bait have been very well received.

Glenda


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Glenda, just read the Jim Gonia article in the last GRCA News. Really interesting to see him point out about water sight blinds and pattern blinds that most people probably don't stick with them long enough.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Gerry, thanks again for your posts. The one on genetics is especially interesting to me. What sticks in my mind after reading many history articles Glenda sent is that so many of these GREAT breedings, like:
• Poika of Handjem (who had no titles and just happened to be the only decent male around), 
• Breedings out Gilnockie Coquet (a dam with no desire to hunt or swim) 
• The mating of Barty to a show dog named Sunstream Gypsy (Topbrass Cotton's parents) 

seemed like total "shots in the dark", but made some of the best dogs in Golden field history.

Another theme I keep seeing in the old stories of the great field goldens, is the magic luck that so many total amateurs and first time dog owners had - making pups into field champions. Thinking of the Torch Flinn pups who went to Ams with full time blue collar jobs who made their first pups into FCs and AFCs. Then Elaine Klicker, with her $125 pup she made up to FC AFC. And many others. It all kind of makes me wonder and hold out hope!

Glenda, CAN'T WAIT to see your future articles! You have filled my last few days with pure joy and so look forward to your future offerings. If you publish/edit a book with this stuff, I will pay double the price for it and read it 10 times.

Jennifer


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## jluther (Jul 18, 2005)

Jennifer Henion said:


> No idea how old Mike Lardy is, but I wonder if his father is still alive? I'll bet he is a wealth of information, since he had Handjem kennels with several great old goldies. Plus you have to think he ran and trained with any other great goldens of that time period.


Mike's father passed away a couple-few years ago.

Very much appreciating this thread, all. Thank you.

-Julie


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jennifer, you are becoming a student of the game, that's a good thing.

John


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Lots of rags to riches stories. I trained with Lew Daniels owner trainer of AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX wasn't trained for field work until he was 18 months old. Became QAA with a second place at four years old. My old training partner Fred Knez and my brother Jerry both trialers, chided Lew about running a 4 plus year old dog in the Qual. I kept my mouth shut as I knew Lew was a driven man , long distance runner. Titled Sparky, double header winner in Ohio Valley,
Half point short of his FC a year later, plus put a CDX in the winter. In his brief breeding career produced some titled dogs including my almost Shotzy. Lew was a working stiff at a factory , slept in his van at trials. One year had 18 amateur all age starts, a lot for a workin guy. Sparky developed a low sperm count, tried to do another breeding as did Jackie Mertens, but, to no avail. Divorce took it's toll , Sparky and Lew left the trial game. Jackie called a few years back and wanted to know if I knew where Lew was, gave a 15 year old number and he answered. She wrote about Sparky as one of the more famous dogs on her Website. My brother is now gone killed in a car accident, but, I sure rubbed it in about Lew, working man's Golden.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Criquetpas said:


> Lots of rags to riches stories. I trained with Lew Daniels owner trainer of AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX wasn't trained for field work until he was 18 months old. Became QAA with a second place at four years old. My old training partner Fred Knez and my brother Jerry both trialers, chided Lew about running a 4 plus year old dog in the Qual. I kept my mouth shut as I knew Lew was a driven man , long distance runner. Titled Sparky, double header winner in Ohio Valley,
> Half point short of his FC a year later, plus put a CDX in the winter. In his brief breeding career produced some titled dogs including my almost Shotzy. Lew was a working stiff at a factory , slept in his van at trials. One year had 18 amateur all age starts, a lot for a workin guy. Sparky developed a low sperm count, tried to do another breeding as did Jackie Mertens, but, to no avail. Divorce took it's toll , Sparky and Lew left the trial game. Jackie called a few years back and wanted to know if I knew where Lew was, gave a 15 year old number and he answered. She wrote about Sparky as one of the more famous dogs on her Website. My brother is now gone killed in a car accident, but, I sure rubbed it in about Lew, working man's Golden.


Great post.. Earl, did you know, see "Buck" train and or trial? 

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1059

FC AFC Sunfire's XX Buckshot OS (11/23/1981-)

My Ranger goes right back to him on his sire's side and I love that old pedigree... Ranger is 12 years old now, but was a "hot" little dog..and a great marking dog, tons of talent.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

this has been an amazing thread. Thanks!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Yes, Jim Morgan is a friend. Buck was an excellent Derby dog too, think he won a big Derby at less then a year old.
Of course he was part of that South end of Chicago Gary indiana mafia, John Trzepacz River Oaks Corky, Joe Pilar,
River Oaks Rascal, all working stiffs midnight shifters, a Golden had to be good to train with that bunch! All amateur trainers. Jim Morgan, Bucks owner, was part of that crew, born and bred Gary Indiana. Jim is in minoqua Wisconsin now and lurks on this forum if you can out him!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Gerry, thanks again for your posts. The one on genetics is especially interesting to me. What sticks in my mind after reading many history articles Glenda sent is that so many of these GREAT breedings, like:
> • Poika of Handjem (who had no titles and just happened to be the only decent male around),
> • Breedings out Gilnockie Coquet (a dam with no desire to hunt or swim)
> • The mating of Barty to a show dog named Sunstream Gypsy (Topbrass Cotton's parents)
> ...


The only thing I would say about those dogs becoming titled Jen is that there was probably very little luck and a whole lot of hard work. Didn't know any of those folks but they probably trained with other experience trainers like Earl mentions... 
Luck = preparation meeting opportunity.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Criquetpas said:


> Yes, Jim Morgan is a friend. Buck was an excellent Derby dog too, think he won a big Derby at less then a year old.
> Of course he was part of that South end of Chicago Gary indiana mafia, John Trzepacz River Oaks Corky, Joe Pilar,
> River Oaks Rascal, all working stiffs midnight shifters, a Golden had to be good to train with that bunch! All amateur trainers. Jim Morgan, Bucks owner, was part of that crew, born and bred Gary Indiana. Jim is in minoqua Wisconsin now and lurks on this forum if you can out him!


Thank you for that history, Earl. Have been told before that Jim lurks here and perhaps he might jump in. This after a similar post begging for information  in regards to Buck, the dog himself, how he worked, temperment, photos..health and I was told he had a good long life..all that great stuff. 

I would take ten of my Ranger with the great stuff behind him. Sebec's pedigree does go back to the same and I am more than happy to have it there. 

Maybe your post will "out" him this time! 

Special thanks to Gerry as well..and the close lines vs outcross....is oh, so true. Have to be a very strong person to take all that on..line breeding and making tough decisions when necessary. As much as I would like to, it isn't always smooth going..an important aspect to seriously consider. 

Love my "boys"..and would have none other..they are fabulous and willing to play at any game. Love Golden Retrievers for that ability to multi-task. 

Judy


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Jim Morgan, if you are lurking, would you mind contacting me privately. I have Buck on my list of potential articles---have a photo of him but am having a problem getting much solid info. Would love to have you write about him.

Thanks.

Glenda


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm not a "golden person", but I admire good dogs whenever I see them run. When I was still new to the game I got to see Topbrass Cotton run in Alaska. But the best Golden I saw run over the course of several seasons (and judge as well) has to be John and Janice Gunn's dog Boomer (FTCH AFTCH FC AFC Cdn OTCH TNT’s Explosion, UD, WX, OS OHF, FDHF US Amateur National Finalist).

He loved water and hit it just as hard on a blind as he did on a mark. He won an AM I judged in WA state and I still remember that water blind ten years later like it just happened! Cotton and Barty of course are in his pedigree and on the other side, Smokin Red Devil. I'm sure you guys will know the pedigree a lot better than I. 

Just a fun dog to watch...


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Bill Davis, thanks for your posts! You're so right about the def. of Luck. What I really meant was they were lucky to have been paired with the pup they got. It does take a good match and sometimes a litter of pups is like a box of chocolates. They got good matches for them! But agreed, preparation and good people to help are paramount.

Loved your comments on having watched and judged Boomer! He is my pups grandsire on the mom's side. The Gunn's other famous dog Stanley Steamer is my pup's sire. Her litter was a funny mix. There were a couple of real fluffies full of hair and full of GO! One of those had a lightning strike on her head, just like Boomer had as a pup. Mine is more red, with a sleek coat and looks just like Stanley. Yesterday she hit the cold February water with a flying leap! I feel "lucky" to have been able to choose her, from the 6 left, as we are a great match for each other.

Thanks again for sharing!!

Jen


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Too bad Melanie Foster and Jim Pickering aren't contributing to this thread. Talk about a wealth of knowledge!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

huntinman said:


> The only thing I would say about those dogs becoming titled Jen is that there was probably very little luck and a whole lot of hard work. Didn't know any of those folks but they probably trained with other experience trainers like Earl mentions...
> Luck = preparation meeting opportunity.


That's true. Lew Daniels trained with guys like Tom Hubard who owned a field champion, Fred knez whom had the same plus judged about 60 or 70 all age trials my brother had a all-age dog amateur all age placements and myself who the same plus judge close to eight points at the time. So it wasn't like Lew read a couple of books and talked to few folks he was with a tough dedicated bunch of everyday trainers. What most don't understand about the big time you get used to losing and it justs motivates you more. Right huntinman you been there too.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Gerry, thanks again for your posts. The one on genetics is especially interesting to me. What sticks in my mind after reading many history articles Glenda sent is that so many of these GREAT breedings, like:
> • Poika of Handjem (who had no titles and just happened to be the only decent male around),
> • Breedings out Gilnockie Coquet (a dam with no desire to hunt or swim)
> • The mating of Barty to a show dog named Sunstream Gypsy (Topbrass Cotton's parents)
> ...




Back in the 60's 70's & 80's a lot of those show bred goldens could really mark.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

..."What most don't understand about the big time you get used to losing and it justs motivates you more.."

Well said!!! ..


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

KNorman said:


> Too bad Melanie Foster and Jim Pickering aren't contributing to this thread. Talk about a wealth of knowledge!


My thoughts, too.
Great respect to both of them. For their significant impact on their breed.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

..and now Jim has done fairly well with a Lab


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> *What most don't understand about the big time you get used to losing and it justs motivates you more.*


That's exactly right... If not, you won't last long.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

KNorman said:


> Too bad Melanie Foster and Jim Pickering aren't contributing to this thread. Talk about a wealth of knowledge!


Yup. They could fill in a lot of the blanks. Come on, Jim and Mel. Where are you?


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Criquetpas said:


> That's true. Lew Daniels trained with guys like Tom Hubard who owned a field champion, Fred knez whom had the same plus judged about 60 or 70 all age trials my brother had a all-age dog amateur all age placements and myself who the same plus judge close to eight points at the time. So it wasn't like Lew read a couple of books and talked to few folks he was with a tough dedicated bunch of everyday trainers. What most don't understand about the big time you get used to losing and it justs motivates you more. Right huntinman you been there too.


Well put! ...and thanks for sharing alot of facts from the past Earl.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

First of all to say that Jim Pickering has "done fairly well with a Lab" is an understatement. Making an FC AFC and competing in the National Open is a little more than doing fairly well. I've seen him on Facebook but no longer on this site. He had some wonderful dogs and great breedings during his "Golden" years. There is a reason that he took up the "other" breed and one can only guess why. I do have my thoughts.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Beverly Burns said:


> First of all to say that Jim Pickering has "done fairly well with a Lab" is an understatement. Making an FC AFC and competing in the National Open is a little more than doing fairly well. I've seen him on Facebook but no longer on this site. He had some wonderful dogs and great breedings during his "Golden" years. There is a reason that he took up the "other" breed and one can only guess why. I do have my thoughts.



Bev...my smiley face meant to be an indication of a little bit of humor. 

Sorry..if it sounded otherwise.. 

Best, 

Judy


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Barty is obviously in most bigtime field pedigrees. I think some other sires that have and are producing well include Devil and Duncan. Both "nicked" with many bitches. Not sure if I've ever seen or heard of a Devil "dud"?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

John Gassner said:


> Barty is obviously in most bigtime field pedigrees. I think some other sires that have and are producing well include Devil and Duncan. Both "nicked" with many bitches. Not sure if I've ever seen or heard of a Devil "dud"?


Have also been thinking that about Duncan - as I look at so many pedigrees. Wish I could see more of these dogs in action. 

So John, which pup will you be picking out for Kippy from your history making litter? A sensitive one or the pig headed one?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Bait said:


> Well put! ...and thanks for sharing alot of facts from the past Earl.


Just sharing some of the good old days of IiliNOISE and SE Wisconsin . What many don't know many of the old field trial dogs originated in Milwaukee and the Chicago metro area. Even going back to James lamb Free , Just North of Milwaukee with Charles Morgan, and the original Retriever Trial news was part of Wisconsin Amateur Field Trial Club. To name a few and some of the old Golden Folks, Minnesota, Wisconsin and IlliNOISE.. Get Junbe to jump in here just about those three states. Dr George Gardner of the Midwest Field Trial Club wouldn't allow me to join the club and sent me to the American amateur Retriever Club more blue collar , blue jean club...both clubs now are basically one in the same Chicago metro area now.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

You might want to refer to this website: www.undeniablegoldens.com
*Top producing sires for FCs*:

1 NAFC-FC TOPBRASS COTTON OS FDHF 7 /6 /1978 Male 5 FC Offspring
2 AFC YANKEE'S SMOKE'N RED DEVIL OS 1 /18/1978 Male 5 FC Offspring
3 FC-AFC BONNIE BROOKS ELMER OS FDHF 1 /27/1965 Male
4 FC Offspring4 AFC HOLWAY BARTY OS 2 /22/1971 Male 4 FC Offspring
5 FC-AFC OAKCREEK'S SIR DORCHESTER OS FDHF 1 /30/1948 Male 4 FC Offspring
6 POIKA OF HANDJEM OS 11/1 /1961 Male 4 FC Offspring
7 JOLLY AGAIN OF OUILMETTE CD *** OS 10/12/1961 Male 3 FC Offspring
8 ROCKHAVEN TUCK ** OS 10/26/1934 Male 3 FC Offspring
9 STILROVIN BEARCAT OS 6 /15/1953 Male 3 FC Offspring
10 STILROVIN BULLET *** OS 8 /8 /1936 Male 3 FC Offspring
11 WRAITH'S DUNCAN MH *** OS 10/14/1984 Male 3 FC Offspring
*
Top Producing Sires for AFCs
*1 AFC HOLWAY BARTY OS 2 /22/1971 Male 7 AFC Offspring
2 AFC YANKEE'S SMOKE'N RED DEVIL OS 1 /18/1978 Male 7 AFC Offspring
3 FC-AFC BONNIE BROOKS ELMER OS FDHF 1 /27/1965 Male 5 AFC Offspring
4 NAFC-FC TOPBRASS COTTON OS FDHF 7 /6 /1978 Male 5 AFC Offspring
5 FC-AFC OAKCREEK'S SIR DORCHESTER OS FDHF 1 /30/1948 Male 4 AFC Offspring
6 POIKA OF HANDJEM OS 11/1 /1961 Male 4 AFC Offspring
7 WRAITH'S DUNCAN MH *** OS 10/14/1984 Male 4 AFC Offspring
8 JOLLY AGAIN OF OUILMETTE CD *** OS 10/12/1961 Male 3 AFC Offspring
9 FC-AFC KINIKE CHANCELLOR OS FDHF 8 /20/1969 Male 3 AFC Offspring
10 STILROVIN BEARCAT OS 6 /15/1953 Male 3 AFC Offspring
11 FC-AFC TIGATHOE'S KIOWA II OS FDHF 11/11/1971 Male 3 AFC Offspring
12 FC WRAITHS HTR MN BRO MACDHUIBH OS 10/14/1995 Male 3 AFC Offspring

It is then interesting to note the pedigree connections between these more recent top producing sires:Cotton & Duncan are both Barty sons; and Red was a Barty grandson. Elmer was a son of Tuffy; and Ki a son of Elmer.You might say that it's a small world 

Since field trials keep getting more competitive and tests more difficult, (not to mention more expensive!) I might wonder than ANY sire will be able to top the #s of 5 and 7 of the present top producing sires. However, when going back to the dogs on this list from the 50s, we also need to take into account that the #s competing were not as large as those in later years. By the 70s and 80s the # of entries had grown dramatically.
*
Top Producing Sires of QAA
*1 AFC HOLWAY BARTY OS 2 /22/1971 Male 42 AllAge Offspring
2 AFC YANKEE'S SMOKE'N RED DEVIL OS 1 /18/1978 Male 37 AllAge Offspring
3 NAFC-FC TOPBRASS COTTON OS FDHF 7 /6 /1978 Male 36 AllAge Offspring
4 AFC EMBERAIN RUGBY WCX OS FDHF 3 /16/1999 Male 27 AllAge Offspring
5 FC WRAITHS HTR MN BRO MACDHUIBH OS 10/14/1995 Male 26 AllAge Offspring
6 FC-AFC CHIEF SANDS OS FDHF 12/3 /1966 Male 22 AllAge Offspring
7 FC-AFC TANGELO'S SIDE KICK OS FDHF 5 /23/1981 Male 22 AllAge Offspring
8 FC-AFC GLENHAVEN HTRS MN BARONET MH OS FDHF 6 /15/1996 Male 19 AllAge Offspring
9 FC-AFC TIGATHOE'S KIOWA II OS FDHF 11/11/1971 Male 18 AllAge Offspring
10 FC-AFC WINDBREAKERS MIGHTY MO OS FDHF 3 /28/1983 Male 16 AllAge Offspring
11 WRAITH'S DUNCAN MH *** OS 10/14/1984 Male 16 AllAge Offspring

I think our hope springs eternal because those who have played the game realize that there are many other good performers out there who just won't quite make it into a lot of the statistics.

(Sorry for the crummy formatting, the cut 'n paste didn't retain the formatting.)


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> You might want to refer to this website: www.undeniablegoldens.com
> *Top producing sires for FCs*:
> 
> 1 NAFC-FC TOPBRASS COTTON OS FDHF 7 /6 /1978 Male 5 FC Offspring
> ...


I owned a QAA male sired by Tigathoe's KiowaII. He was a big, proud looking male like his sire. He won a Q at Niagra Falls with Pro Bill Little handling. I also owned a Barty male that was very different in looks from my Kiowa male. My Barty dog was much smaller, lighter boned and faster. But, the best male Golden I'd ever seen running All Age was Wyngate's Sungold Sundance who was FC AFC at 4 years(amateur trained) running against Texas and Louisiana dogs and Pros.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> It is then interesting to note the pedigree connections between these more recent top producing sires:Cotton & Duncan are both Barty sons


Pretty sure that Duncan was actually a Cotton son. But, we get the idea.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Jennifer, Kippy is the frontrunnerto get a nice dominant male that acts like he has a little Carolina Leg Hound in him! 

Earl, I agree. So many great field Golden's from central Illinois from the likes of Harold Bruninga, Jackie Mertins as well as the Miners and Sharon Long. Wisconsin and Minnesota both have had many great Golden's ran by both amateurs and pros.

Don't forget the St. Louis area and Golden history. Paul Bakewell had several Golden's that made it to the top. The Wallace's also had a number of nice dogs. They were also influential in the Busch area, home of the most NRCs.


And don't forget the Wallace's Retriever Hall of Fame trainer that always had nice Golden's. His nickname was the "kid". Most of us know him as Tommy Sorenson.

I would also add Stoneybrooks Jersey Devil. I really liked every one of his pups!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Nancy Miner was one if the original Dick Kern's groupies that I wrote in a few paragraphs back . She had Bonnie Brooks Danny, I think he had 8 or 9AA points. Nancy (used to be Carlsen) started about the time I had Goldens mid 1960s trained with her, co owned a dog with her. Remind her famous obedience daughter Bridget Carlsen she used to be in diapers when they visited our house. They lived in a North Chicago suburb at the time. My thoughts were way back 1950s, 1940's, And where it all started from Mississippi Valley to Tri State to Wisconsin Amateur Midwest Field Trial club, oldest clubs in the Nation. Others like Harold, Sharon, Jackie, all great contributors but more contemporary. And John dont forget yourself!!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Bait said:


> Pretty sure that Duncan was actually a Cotton son. But, we get the idea.


You're right, Bait ... my brain skipped a beat


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Yeah, I can relate. Mine skips just about every other beat.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

The first Field Trial Golden I ever saw being trained was Superior's Chevas,MH,*** owned by Tom Colstad. He was my neighbor and my teacher in HS.
I used to go and watch him train with Ed Shoenbach(spelling?).
I saw them run at the Manitowoc FT club my senior yr. 
Vern Weber was fun to listen talk of the Goldens he had.
Sue
I just realized I dated myself. Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Gerry, Thanks for your post #100! Love your thoughts on this stuff. 

This whole discussion has me thinking about "good nicks". Could one look at past successes "nicks" and predict future ones? I don't know...

Just thinking out loud, but could one go back and look at the successful "nicks" that make up a Cotton, a Duncan, a Rip, a Boomer (all closely tied to English genes) and create a new "good nick" ?

Food for thought...

edit: to clarify, could we go to current English FTCH of lines that match those of proven lines that led to Barty and his offspring, and mix those with the American lines that made good "nicks" with the English. Clear as mud?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Here one for ya Jen,great lady of the past,I`m sure someone will figger the dog.Jim


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Sorry about the quality,these have been in a closet for who knows how long.I`m not real good on this computer but will have some more of the old days comin up soon.


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## zeekster (Jun 15, 2009)

Guess it's time to stick some Canuck voice in here also. So far haven't seen Devil mentioned who seems to show up even more than Cotton and is a great sire of numerous great dogs.
And I have to include Sprint in there who has donated to the game also but it seems like some of the top producing females are being left out of this. Takes a good stud but with out out a great female they would never throw anything. 
My hat goes off to the breeders who take a chance with there females to try the unknown studs who end up making them great. Maybe some day we will find that perfect combination in an out cross or a line breeding that will produce the next really great Goldens with no health problems to go and beat those black dogs.

Dave Beacock


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Do you mean untitled studs?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Sue Kiefer said:


> The first Field Trial Golden I ever saw being trained was Superior's Chevas,MH,*** owned by Tom Colstad. He was my neighbor and my teacher in HS.
> I used to go and watch him train with Ed Shoenbach(spelling?).
> I saw them run at the Manitowoc FT club my senior yr.
> Vern Weber was fun to listen talk of the Goldens he had.
> ...


Sue have known you for awhile and this small World is getting scrary just did some PM with Nancy Pals. My brother taught at Tomahawk H.S English and Drama where he worked with Tom Colstad. Jerry lived in Merrill and Tom lived in Irma, you were his neighbor? I used to hunt and train dogs with Eddie Shoebach, who was also friends with Judy and Jim Powers. Mary Howley would come up to Eddie's place to train occasionly. My brother and I bought a Brittany from Tom too. Trained at his place a few times. I know except for Chevas, he was one heck of a Golden and rember him Well. I could fill a book withVern Weber's stories. His history with Goldens in the Wisconsin area is very well documented. His passing a few years ago left a void that cannot be replaced. I will not second hand his stories, but, the GRCA should contact maybe Brian Hartfield who has Webshire Kennels about Vern's Golden era. Many only know vern as the owner of FC/AFC Webshire Honest Abe, National Finalist, no 2 Derby list dog. There were Golden FC and Afc before Abe. He is sometimes over looked in the contributions he made to the field Goldens. Small World can't handle much more.


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## M. Robinson (Apr 13, 2011)

This is all very interesting. In order to keep everything straight, I might have to make a giant wall map of the pedigrees and how they interconnect.

In 1983, I asked my neighbour if he knew of any Golden puppies for sale. I knew he competed in obedience and we wanted a dog that would be a good family member but had a brain. I did not know Field Trials existed. That is a SHAME because the puppy we got through his recommendation was brilliant, birdy, had an utterly bomb proof temperament and was exceedingly handsome. He had no health issues either and lived to 15. Pedigree: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=53600
Damn!

Here is something I heard this past fall at a Trial in Michigan. I cannot vouch for the veracity but it is an interesting thought. The gist was that some serious, well known, old time show breeders are very disturbed about where the show lines have gone. They are concerned that the dogs have become overdone- too much coat, too much bone and not enough brain. Their solution: breed back to well structured field males who actually fit the breed standard.
Hmmmmm. 

Medie


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

There will be a photo of Chevas (Tom Colstad) in the Mar/Apr GRNews in the first of a series on Golden Finalists in the Master Nationals. 

I have on my list to see what I can track down re Vern's Goldens. My understanding (and if it has been mentioned earlier on this thread, I apologize) is that when Vern's vision started fading, he went to black Labs as he could see them better in the field. 

Glenda


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## zeekster (Jun 15, 2009)

I apologize for not reading back farther or I would have realized that Devil had already been mentioned numerous times,
On the untitled studs I will say when we used Mioaks Shaken Jake he was a great junior dog but had no titles to bad we didn't know much about thyroid problems or he might have gone on to be a really great stud. He was the sire of Sprint who when bred to Razz produced some great dogs in Canada and the US.
I think some of the dogs that only have a Canadian FC or AFC are forgotten about unfortunately also as are the dogs that only run Hunt Tests although myself I do want to see a strong field background in there pedigree. I thank Mike Ducross for doing what he did with Sprint and now he has another great dog Push maybe not an American FC AFC but he the only Golden ever titled in field, obedience and show.
I've head more than one Pro say that there are more FC and AFC dogs sitting on someones couch or in a duck blind that we will never see.
If we listen to every gloomer and doomer out there we probably wouldn't have bred to a lot of the studs or bitches, you here so and so though bad hips or bad front ends or bad eyes or cancer or thyroid problems or epilepsy,
It would be great if every dog bred had or never will have health problems, but at least there is the testing out there so we can avoid some. Thankfully something like this keeps are eyes open and makes us aware of some of the fantastic studs that have been around and hopefully keeps our minds open to look to see who might be the next really great stud but we don't all want to use him or the gene pool could get even smaller.

Dave Beacock


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

jd6400 said:


> Sorry about the quality,these have been in a closet for who knows how long.I`m not real good on this computer but will have some more of the old days comin up soon.


Glenda might like to help you clean that closet out!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Glenda Brown said:


> There will be a photo of Chevas (Tom Colstad) in the Mar/Apr GRNews in the first of a series on Golden Finalists in the Master Nationals.
> 
> I have on my list to see what I can track down re Vern's Goldens. My understanding (and if it has been mentioned earlier on this thread, I apologize) is that when Vern's vision started fading, he went to black Labs as he could see them better in the field.
> 
> Glenda


Yes, his wife Ethel died a number of years ago and he had no children, a nephew or two. Just don't want to lessen his contribution Brian bought his place from from Vern and I am sure he has some background. 
I knew some of the dogs from Sam Gunnerman's Coin of Copper that they had to run behind a car before they ran him to Tioga Joe and Sandstorm. I donot feel qualified , as many of these were second stories.
Brian and Lisa Hartfield would be your best bet of hands on information. Most are deceased that knew his Golden Background. Vern had many funny stories. Jackie might have some background? Maybe Mary Howley and Mickey Strandberg too. I was at my daughters a short time ago and read the current GRCA magazine ,wow, compared to 30 years ago the last time I was a member of GRCA.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

M. Robinson said:


> This is all very interesting. In order to keep everything straight, I might have to make a giant wall map of the pedigrees and how they interconnect.
> 
> In 1983, I asked my neighbour if he knew of any Golden puppies for sale. I knew he competed in obedience and we wanted a dog that would be a good family member but had a brain. I did not know Field Trials existed. That is a SHAME because the puppy we got through his recommendation was brilliant, birdy, had an utterly bomb proof temperament and was exceedingly handsome. He had no health issues either and lived to 15. Pedigree: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=53600
> Damn!
> ...


My last Golden Litter was bred in 1980 AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX to my Marshlands Lucky Trick OD ( a Barty bitch) I kept one of the pups trough a divorce and started to train him at 3 1/2 years old pointed QAA he lived until he was 16. I don't have a dog in this fight, but told some folks back then Barty was going to be bred into many generations and in the future it would be hard to find a non Barty in a field pedigree.

I told the folks back then, when I went black, that I would find the most prominent field dogs and breed them to the most prominent obedience, rather then try to make another dual champion. I bred that bitch to a top Golden Show dog at the time and the pups were just about useless as far as field ability goes, pretty dogs, prepotent sires, but not even a good nose. Trixie was out of Barty and a Chief Sands bitch, but, the conformation dogs were so prepotent, produce themselves, the field wasn't even evident. Not much of a sampling I guess, but, an observation and followed that breeding to the second generation and it did not change.
They might be on to something M. Robinson!


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> Glenda might like to help you clean that closet out!


Miss Jen,do you know who that photo is? Jim


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

I had the honor and the pleasure of judging June Atkinson's Holway Corbiere in the Shooting Times Cold Game Test at Sandringham in the early 80s in the UK. He won first place and was an amazing dog. June, who is now deceased was one of the best dog trainers I have ever known. I had the good fortune to be able to go to training sessions with June several times over the years during visits to England and l learned a good bit from it. Her son Robert is still running Holway kennel. Considering the impact that Holway Barty had on the field-bred Goldens, one might look back to his source for potential sires.

Here is a good article on June by Graham Cox, who was one of the four judges for the 2012 IGL Retriever championship. Graham also is a great cheerleader for Goldens, and has done quite well in field trials with them.

http://www.holwaygoldens.com/holway-goldens/june-atkinson/

Here is a good article by Graham Cox on the history of Goldens from UK pesrpective:

http://www.holwaygoldens.com/gundogs/


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

rmilner said:


> I had the honor and the pleasure of judging June Atkinson's Holway Corbiere in the Shooting Times Cold Game Test at Sandringham in the early 80s in the UK. He won first place and was an amazing dog. June, who is now deceased was one of the best dog trainers I have ever known. I had the good fortune to be able to go to training sessions with June several times over the years during visits to England and l learned a good bit from it. Her son Robert is still running Holway kennel. Considering the impact that Holway Barty had on the field-bred Goldens, one might look back to his source for potential sires.
> 
> Here is a good article on June by Graham Cox, who was one of the four judges for the 2012 IGL Retriever championship. Graham also is a great cheerleader for Goldens, and has done quite well in field trials with them.
> 
> ...


June Atkinson is one person with whom I would have loved to train. Heck, I would have gladly served as a farm slave for her, if I could hang out with her and those dogs.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

jd6400 said:


> Miss Jen,do you know who that photo is? Jim


No, but I'd like to. I first guessed it was Torch Flinn, as I have seen other photos of her (then I saw the caption "Torch"), but I didn't know the dog or circumstance. What is the story behind that, Jd?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Yea it is Torchy,the pic was from 70`s and really don`t know what dog ,Kinda thought someone might Jim


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Heres another Jen,lets see if anyone around recognizes this. Jim


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

In the U.S., we have had Rocky, Thistle and Cain have titles in three venues---no OTCH in those days, but it is my understanding that a UD in Canada gives the dog an OTCH title. Thistle also had a TD title.

Have had CH-AFC Lorelei's Golden Rockbottom UD; CH AFC Riverview's Chickasaw Thistle UD TD; Dual CH Ronakers Novato Cain CD; and Hondo-- CH AFC Honor's Dorado of Spindrift who did not have any obedience titles. Hondo is going to be featured in the Mar/Apr issue of the GRNs.

Pat Sadler would probably be able to recognize the Golden with Torch---possibly Elmer or Tuppee?

Pat Quinn just finished organizing a list of all the Golden conformation Champions who have their MH titles which I just downloaded. It continues to grow from the original one I have so that is a huge plus.

Glenda


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

jd6400 said:


> Heres another Jen,lets see if anyone around recognizes this. Jim
> View attachment 11636


What a neat photo, Jim!! Everyone looks VERY happy! Of course, I don't know who it is, but can't wait to find out the story! Can you tell I'm a former newspaper reporter?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Haaa!You seem very much into the breed and I love to see that!!Kinda why I`m doin this.I`m gonna hold off on the answer but a little hint,I can`t believe there are no canadians that don`t recognize this....... Jim


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I lived down the street from Colstad before he moved to Irma.
I 'll not tell the yr.!
Ethel Weber also had the best chocolate-chip cookies too which she brought to trials. Remember?
Mary H. also had Goldens at one time.
Where's Caroline? She's a lurker.
Sue


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Criquetpas said:


> My last Golden Litter was bred in 1980 AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX to my Marshlands Lucky Trick OD ( a Barty bitch) I kept one of the pups trough a divorce and started to train him at 3 1/2 years old pointed QAA he lived until he was 16. I don't have a dog in this fight, but told some folks back then Barty was going to be bred into many generations and in the future it would be hard to find a non Barty in a field pedigree.
> 
> I told the folks back then, when I went black, that I would find the most prominent field dogs and breed them to the most prominent obedience, rather then try to make another dual champion. I bred that bitch to a top Golden Show dog at the time and the pups were just about useless as far as field ability goes, pretty dogs, prepotent sires, but not even a good nose. Trixie was out of Barty and a Chief Sands bitch, but, the conformation dogs were so prepotent, produce themselves, the field wasn't even evident. Not much of a sampling I guess, but, an observation and followed that breeding to the second generation and it did not change.
> They might be on to something M. Robinson!


I think that many have tried doing this, but when the first generation is disappointing, give it up. 

My first pup purchased specifically for field work was a Ki son ex a bitch who was a daughter of CH Seneca's Riparian Chief, WC. But ... the sire of Rip was CH Betaberk's Rockcrest Apache*** whom many of the field people believed might have titled if the owner (the late Mo Saffell) had been more adept at handling skills. So, while it appeared to be the same premise of field dog X show dog, there was more to it than what appeared on the surface. While I was not up to getting the best out of my pup (who was a very good marker), one of his littermates became a Can FC & US *** (I believe he became *** when he was just around 2 yrs old. http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=16272 

IF (and that is a VERY BIG "if") there were ever to be another Golden Dual CH in the US, I think it might come from careful selection of show dogs who also show innate field capability (perhaps with a few solid field dogs in the background) & a mate that also had solid field genes. There could be a big "drought" between the beginning and the end of the quest ... in the end, it might be the linebreeding value that could make it come to pass. It would also require, perhaps, several people on the same quest in order to provide the alternative matings along the way ... ultimately concentrating enough of the field aptitude genes to carry heavier weight into the final product. 

And if we look into Push's pedigree we see some show genes buried back there on the dam side, with some field genes that combined in just the right way to transmit the field ability (and genes) to the dam. Then bred to a sire with very strong field genes, who also has both field and show genes in his background. Ain't hindsight great? It took a lot of years to "collect" all these genes, in just the right proportions, to create the "magic" that became Push. 

Dave Beacock's post has SO many points in it that could make for threads of their own! Since the GRCA only gives Outstanding Dam and Sire status to US titles; and CGRC does the same, it tends to divide us into two groups that can tend to focus on one side of the border, or the other. 

No question either that Sprint was one of the sires that brought the two countries closer together. Although his own genes are primarily US, he sired successful offspring in both countries. And Push is also doing so. Although his background is more US than Canadian, he is producing in both countries. Stanley also does this, with more input from Can lines. Boomer has primarily US lines, but has sired offspring making their mark in both countries as well. 

And, yes, there are show breeders in both countries who can remember when Goldens in the show ring were more athletic in their appearance ... and a few show judges. Unfortunately, being mortals, there are fewer of them each year ... and it will become harder for the "bridge" to remain in place. Try to imagine if this dog http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1185 could go Best In Show today. To me this is a "classic" Golden in appearance. Don't know if he had any field aptitude, since I didn't know the dog personally. But he was born 46 years ago! And then his gr-grandsire born in 1943
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=953 was a CH-AFC.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Sue Kiefer said:


> I lived down the street from Colstad before he moved to Irma.
> I 'll not tell the yr.!
> Ethel Weber also had the best chocolate-chip cookies too which she brought to trials. Remember?
> Mary H. also had Goldens at one time.
> ...


I am out of touch and entertaining myself with a foot of snow on the ground, just trying to bring out the Golden people as the field dogs get short changed in the field world. There some extremely knowledgeable Golden folks that lurk here.
Yup remember Ethel Weber's cookies. So my brother starting teaching probably after you graduated in 1999? Right!


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## 150class (Jul 1, 2003)

Good thread everyone..lots of learning!!!


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Graduated in 99 I wish. LOL
Sue


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Graduated in 99 I wish. LOL
> Sue


Trying to be complimental, could say when my brother really taught there, but I won't.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I'll tell ya what: this thread has really made my dog's pedigree come to life for me and I really appreciate it! Now I look at the famous names and have a story and history to tie to that name. How cool!!! Flyer is curled in a ball on her cushy bed by the couch right now - I look at her and see a universe of great storied dogs! So neat.

Special thanks to Glenda for sending me sooo much information to read - still not through it all. And all of you great Golden folks who added to this thread. 

One neat thing I realized tonight, was that John Gunn - owner/handler of Stanley Steamer - apparently imported a pup from Britain called Osmington Anya. She was then bred to Topbrass Cotton (1/2 Uk via Barty) to create Anya's Brassy Boss "Buck", also owned by John. Buck was then bred to Sungold Superbrass (line bred on Barty on both sides) to create Stanley's Dam. That's a lot of Barty and a lot of UK. There's a lot of Treunair blood in Stanley's ped, too. Maybe I should call John and pick his brain!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I'll tell ya what: this thread has really made my dog's pedigree come to life for me and I really appreciate it! Now I look at the famous names and have a story and history to tie to that name. How cool!!! Flyer is curled in a ball on her cushy bed by the couch right now - I look at her and see a universe of great storied dogs! So neat.
> 
> Special thanks to Glenda for sending me sooo much information to read - still not through it all. And all of you great Golden folks who added to this thread.
> 
> One neat thing I realized tonight, was that John Gunn - owner/handler of Stanley Steamer - apparently imported a pup from Britain called Osmington Anya. She was then bred to Topbrass Cotton (1/2 Uk via Barty) to create Anya's Brassy Boss "Buck", also owned by John. Buck was then bred to Sungold Superbrass (line bred on Barty on both sides) to create Stanley's Dam. That's a lot of Barty and a lot of UK. There's a lot of Treunair blood in Stanley's ped, too. *Maybe I should call John and pick his brain!*


Not a bad idea... But you might want to get Janice on the phone too, a ton of dog knowledge there...


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Best in show, maybe not. But a finished champion, I think yes. 
It's hard to judge the angles in his rear because of the way he's standing, but he looks very balanced. Nice amount of bone, nice neck set, lovely muzzle/stop/ear set. Perfect tailset. Hard to judge his topline, again because of the way he's standing, but it looks solid. 
Gorgeous dog.



Gerry Clinchy said:


> Try to imagine if this dog http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1185 could go Best In Show today. To me this is a "classic" Golden in appearance. Don't know if he had any field aptitude, since I didn't know the dog personally. But he was born 46 years ago! And then his gr-grandsire born in 1943
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=953 was a CH-AFC.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Val Walker's balanced approach to breeding working Goldens and her contributions to the breed!

http://www.sungold.trieven-sungold.com/thebreed.html

&

http://www.sungold.trieven-sungold.com/studs/timber.html


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Franco, I never figured you a knowledgeable Golden guy, go figure. Cool...


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Franco, I never figured you a knowledgeable Golden guy, go figure. Cool...


John, I may be the only one on RTF that has owned a Barty and KiowaII male as well as a Lad grand-get. ;-)


My next pup might be a Chessy and strictly for hunting.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Franco said:


> John, I may be the only one on RTF that has owned a Barty and KiowaII male as well as a Lad grand-get. ;-)
> 
> 
> My next pup might be a Chessy and strictly for hunting.



Then you could lose the curlers;-)


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Then you could lose the curlers;-)


No way! I still find that photo I lifted off of Facebook to be amusing!


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Another knowledgeable Golden person is Chris Brasswell. As the breeder of Stanley she has contributed to the modern gene pool. 

Jeff

PS - and no I am not a closet Golden person  even though I like Casey


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## Jeannie Greenlee (Apr 15, 2009)

> Best in show, maybe not. But a finished champion, I think yes.


I think you miss the point...that dog did go BIS in his time and I really doubt if he could be a finished champion in the US today.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

entirely possible. Certainly wouldn't be the first time 



Jeannie Greenlee said:


> I think you miss the point....


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## vanman (Sep 26, 2007)

Holy cow! Just read the entire thread.Great stuff!Stay tuned.Earl may be running a red one in the near future!


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

vanman said:


> Holy cow! Just read the entire thread.Great stuff!Stay tuned.Earl may be running a red one in the near future!


Alright Earl!!!


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> Heres another Jen,lets see if anyone around recognizes this. Jim
> View attachment 11636


This pic was,left to right, dad,Bonnie Brookes Tuff n Half,Harold Paine, Bumpy Lewis,at the Canadian Sports show Gold Whistle field trial.This was a trial held indoors invitation only,I believe he won it twice and was also the first golden.To do so. Jim


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Really neat photo, Jim! Hope you frame that one!

And Earl, After reading this thread once and doing some extra research, I felt like I might understand your posts better, so went back and read them again. WOW! You really were in the thick of it! Thanks for sharing that history! 

Hope Chris is right about you going RED again!

Jen


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## bdloree (Nov 22, 2008)

This discussion made me dig out the book "The Complete Golden Retriever" by Gertrude Fischer. Before Barty, there are post war pictures of Dual Ch Stubblesdown Lass & Ftd Ch Musicmaker of Yeo & National Ftd Ch Mazurka Of Wynford and many more. On the cover Ch Finderne Gold Cloud of Kent. - this book makes ya think where we have been and where are we going?


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

vanman said:


> Holy cow! Just read the entire thread.Great stuff!Stay tuned.Earl may be running a red one in the near future!


Ohhhhh!!!!!  Hope there will be an introduction along with puppy photos  

Judy


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

vanman said:


> Holy cow! Just read the entire thread.Great stuff!Stay tuned.Earl may be running a red one in the near future!


I hope it's a Clyde pup!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

bdloree said:


> This discussion made me dig out the book "The Complete Golden Retriever" by Gertrude Fischer. Before Barty, there are post war pictures of Dual Ch Stubblesdown Lass & Ftd Ch Musicmaker of Yeo & National Ftd Ch Mazurka Of Wynford and many more. On the cover Ch Finderne Gold Cloud of Kent. - this book makes ya think where we have been and where are we going?


I was going to PM you instead of posting, but see you cannot receive PMs yet. Just wanted to thank you for mentioning this book again - I think Glenda mentioned it in the past, but your post inspired me to order it. Found a new copy for under $10!

Jennifer


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## Judy Myers (Feb 15, 2009)

Jennifer, there was more than one edition of Gertrude's book and they are different, especially in terms of the pictures included. You might want to also check for other editions if you're gathering a library.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks Judy,

Guess I'll be spending another $10. Meant to order the 1974 edition, but looks like I ended up ordering the 1994.

Edit: 1984, not 1994 (thanks Judy Chute)


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Yes, that is what I wanted to post...have the older edition, 1974 ..and then received a New 2nd Edition, 1984 with obedience ring placement ribbon...has more photos etc that Judy mentions. Not sure if there is another since the '84..oooops guess there is a '94 edition..will check it, as well.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Brad Turner said:


> I hope it's a Clyde pup!


yes it a Clyde pup out of the Dresser's bitch. He is 15 weeks old and co own him. He is doing nice we did a short triple with him this AM ,two back to back and one off the line, about 35 yards or so. He is very focused and likes to retrieve just teaching him how to learn now and the mechanics of a mark. Like I tell Chris, between now and about 9 months old they all suck. Will know more after basics and around the water.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Yay!!!!! Congrats Earl!!!


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

Criquetpas said:


> yes it a Clyde pup out of the Dresser's bitch. He is 15 weeks old and co own him. He is doing nice we did a short triple with him this AM ,two back to back and one off the line, about 35 yards or so. He is very focused and likes to retrieve just teaching him how to learn now and the mechanics of a mark. Like I tell Chris, between now and about 9 months old they all suck. Will know more after basics and around the water.


Well good luck with him and please keep us updated on his progress.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Brad Turner said:


> Well good luck with him and please keep us updated on his progress.


I will have trained with Chris for about 8 years. I have thrown for Clyde since he was a wee one of about the same age.
Hope this one is as good as Clyde.


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

I bet. I watched him win the Specialty in 2011. My Clyde son was running the derby. I hope to run him in some quals this Spring. When I was inquiring about his litter, Mickey said Clyde was the real deal. There weren't too many litters on the ground at that point. Several folks have used him now. Time will tell what kind of an impact he will have on our breed.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Brad Turner said:


> I bet. I watched him win the Specialty in 2011. My Clyde son was running the derby. I hope to run him in some quals this Spring. When I was inquiring about his litter, Mickey said Clyde was the real deal. There weren't too many litters on the ground at that point. Several folks have used him now. Time will tell what kind of an impact he will have on our breed.


He has close to 100 or so pups on the ground. He is prepotent and throws himself. Chris has a three year QAA of him Doc, with Derby points, watch for him he is running him in the all- age. Clyde is one if the nicest water dogs around, water is just something to go through. A 60 hour a week second shift job, completely amateur trained, and his first trial dog has taken it's toll otherwise he would be titled. When we aren't shut down by weather we train 6 days a week , never have seen Clyde down!


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

I finally had time to sit down and read this whole thread--what a nice history of some of our foundation goldens. Does anybody remember FC Sir Arthur (besides me, I mean)? Ray Sommers trained him and I was lucky enough to meet them both while we lived in WI. What a clown! He'd spin circles going to the line, on the line, off the line. I never saw a dog spin like that again until Joe Boatright's lab and he was just as exciting to watch as Sir Arthur.
Shortly after we moved to WI, we met a fellow who had a CH bitch by Sir Arthur out of Roxanne of Arborvita and she was a beautiful hunting machine. My husband came home one day saying he'd found the nice people who owned the female the Loomis' had gotten their dog and they had a litter of puppies and even better, they had a Christmas tree farm! Well, long story short I went from, "We can't afford a dog.", to "How much are they?" HOLY MOSES....a hundred dollars???? For a dog???? to "We can go look at them, but we cannot, under any circumstances, afford a dog." We don't have any place to keep it, you only own a 30-06--not a shotgun (at least I knew that much), I went on and on. My husband said, I can get a gun--they're not expensive (insert Belgium Browning) & besides, it'll save us money, I'll be able to hunt pheasants and chukkars and put food on the table...............sigh. Do you know what happens when you see a litter of golden puppies for the very first time? First they run up to you and wiggle all over the place, then they grab your shoe laces and pull them apart, then when you bend down to retie your shoes, they jump up and lick you all over the place! Well, we bought a pup & paid the breeders $25.00 a month for 4 months. Mr. Williams, the owner of the stud, Stilrovin Luke Adew, was sending his pro down to take first pick. So we chose ours and a second just in case. The pro said he would take the entire litter (not uncommon) and see which ones were worth training. The breeder told him we had aleady given her a deposit, so he could have all of them but one. He took his first pick (thankfully NOT our pick) and took the rest of the litter. We named our pup "Rip" after the first U.S. CH Rip. We knew less than nothing about training, but Don Loomis belonged to a club called W.A.F.T.C. so off my husband and the puppy went to learn how to hunt birds. At a picnic trial, Rip couldn't find the first bird and my husband was very disappointed, but a nice gentleman came up to him and suggested a few things including not to rush the puppy and then invited us up to his place to train. He had a place at Random Lake and his name was Charlie Morgan. Then we met Ray Sommers and Dr. Lardy, and a whole bunch of trainers, owners, and retrievers. Rip ran 3 Derbies, made the Derby list, ran 3 Quals and was QAA and then, a fellow that lived down the road from us named Del Glodowski said Rip was quite nice looking and since he showed dogs on weekends, he'd like to put Rip in the ring.......well, before we knew it, Rip had I don't know how major reserves out of the puppy class and was well on his way to being a really nice dog. Unfortunately, my husband lost his job and although we received an extremely good offer to purchase Rip, we just couldn't sell him. So he grew old in California and that was that. But, he got us started in goldens. Luke Adew became a FC/AFC, Roxanne of Arborvita placed in a trial. We met and trained with the Venerables, Christiansen's, Vern & Ethel Weber and a lot of really nice goldens (and an occasional lab, too). Someplace I have a couple of old F.T. catalogues from WI. with all
those wonderful old dogs and their owners. 
I remember the goldens were darker red, good sized and some were heavier boned than many of the goldens today. 

Suzanne B


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Very, very nice Suzanne. Thank you! I keep saying much of it started here in the Midwest with Goldens. The W.A.F.T.C where I am a life member is celebrating it's 75 year anniversary this year!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great Great story, Suzanne! Thanks for sharing that. Love hearing about you lucky ducks who fall bass akwards into luck with meeting people like Charles Morgan and Dr. Lardy and getting pups from great parents! 

Loved the part about you and hubby arguing about getting the pup and the gun...Look at the heights you've reached! Truly a wonderful story. 

I'll shut up now...

Jennifer


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Earl, thanks for sharing your observations about Clyde. For rookies like me, it is so valuable to hear from people with your experience and first hand knowledge of specific existing dogs. Really raised my eyebrows. Maybe a good topic for a new thread: Experienced views on current competitors.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

My Barty grandson.

Twin Branch Bayside Dasher (FC-AFC Mioak's Main Event x Mishka's Mission Impossible). Ned's Meadow and Big Crow Island, East Bay, Long Island.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Also, nice photo of Barty in Jeffrey Pepper's book THE GOLDEN RETRIEVER.


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

We certainly were lucky--there we were right in the middle of "all that wonderful golden history" and didn't even know it! I shoulda taken notes....and pictures! 
So glad you've been talking about Clyde. I had finally decided after way too long, to breed one of my girls and thought Clyde would be perfect as she's an outcross and I absolutely love his pedigree, particularly "Sprint". I'd wanted to breed Nell to Sprint, but couldn't make it work--and went with another favorite--Mioak's Main Event--that worked out pretty darn well. In any event, I talked with my vet about breeding an older girl and he said she was as healthy as they came, but why hadn't I done it sooner? I told him I wouldn't breed a litter when there was a recession going on because I'm a worrywart about that sort of thing. Well I did some more research and before I could even contact Clyde's owner, Flirt had what I thought was a bladder infection--it wasn't, it was pyo and I had her spayed. Darn, I sure would have liked to see what those two could have produced.
SuzanneB


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Suzanne Burr said:


> So glad you've been talking about Clyde. I had finally decided after way too long, to breed one of my girls and thought Clyde would be perfect as she's an outcross and I absolutely love his pedigree, particularly "Sprint". I'd wanted to breed Nell to Sprint, but couldn't make it work--and went with another favorite--Mioak's Main Event--that worked out pretty darn well. In any event, I talked with my vet about breeding an older girl and he said she was as healthy as they came, but why hadn't I done it sooner? I told him I wouldn't breed a litter when there was a recession going on because I'm a worrywart about that sort of thing. Well I did some more research and before I could even contact Clyde's owner, Flirt had what I thought was a bladder infection--it wasn't, it was pyo and I had her spayed. Darn, I sure would have liked to see what those two could have produced.
> SuzanneB


I might have been in line for that one, Suzanne.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i dont know sh!?t about golden history but i know a great dog when i see one, why isnt jake mentioned ?


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

IMO Jake has proven himself as a producer, for sure. BTW, Jake was the test dog for the first series of the specialty derby in 2011 (John ending up having to judge). He might have been a little underwhelmed by that double

Didn't your daughter run him John?


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

kip said:


> i dont know sh!?t about golden history but i know a great dog when i see one, why isnt jake mentioned ?


Right you are, Kippy! I guess cuz it was, for many pages, about the history, like you said. But, now that it has progressed into including present day, and some possible comparisons of present day matches and "back in the day" matches, and including some really nice goldens of today, We gotta mention Big Red.  (Those close to him call him "the big red dog", I call him Big Red for short. The horse people out there will know why.  ) Jakey boy is one of those dogs they will be talking about for many years, as one of those, not only special Goldens, but special "retrievers" that happened to be a Golden. And definately has made an impact on the Golden retriever world. 
He is definately a great dog. I've even heard folks that have seen him run say things like," He has the water skills of a Lab." or "He thinks he's a Lab." Well, I'll have to only partially agree. And, I understand these comments are just made in fun, and are sincere compliments. But, Jakey doesn't think he's anything besides a part of John & Andy's families. And yes he has the skills of the best of any breed. He's one of the great ones.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Brad Turner said:


> IMO Jake has proven himself as a producer, for sure. BTW, Jake was the test dog for the first series of the specialty derby in 2011 (John ending up having to judge). He might have been a little underwhelmed by that double
> 
> Didn't your daughter run him John?


Good memory Brad! Jake will run for anyone.

My daughter first ran Jake when he was a 2 year old fresh out of his Derby career. My daughter Mary was only 3. They were great in the land series and nailed the water double with a flyer. I forgot he had to honor in that series. He had not been taught that yet. It was too much for them and he had a controlled break. I've got the video of it somewhere. Love watching him run pre-injury. Gives me goosebumps....and tears.

Thanks guys for including Jake. 

He's our once in a lifetime dog. Lucy might be our 2nd. Don't know how much luck a couple of guys with day jobs can have, but we are very thankful for our good fortunes and thankful for all of the support over the years. So much from friends that normally prefer other breeds!


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## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

*Tears of joy*



John Gassner said:


> Good memory Brad! Jake will run for anyone.
> 
> My daughter first ran Jake when he was a 2 year old fresh out of his Derby career. My daughter Mary was only 3. They were great in the land series and nailed the water double with a flyer. I forgot he had to honor in that series. He had not been taught that yet. It was too much for them and he had a controlled break. I've got the video of it somewhere. Love watching him run pre-injury. Gives me goosebumps....and tears.
> 
> ...


Now you have me in tears,John! The thought of your 3 year old running a 2 year old Jake is unimaginable! That must have been one sweet day in your book. As you know, I have a Jake boy and have been thrilled with him.....never a sweeter, more biddable dog could exist. He does run like Jake, though and I live in fear that he will injure himself one day. His drive for the bird just overcomes any caution that other dogs may have. I am so glad Jake has been acknowledged as one of the greats.....he has some awesome pups out there, with lots of his drive and talent.....I am lucky to have two of them
Diane


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