# Walking baseball diagram



## Webbs515 (Feb 6, 2010)

Anybody have any walking baseball diagrams to post or email me? I have Evans video but wanting to see it on paper too. Thanks

Donny
[email protected]


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Here are a couple.










For me, the video makes much more sense than diagrams, however.

Evan


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Donny, even the guy who came up with it and put it in a book, was not at all happy with the way the diagram came out! It is HARD to explain or draw. You really, really need someone to show you and walk you through. Not once, not twice, but a bunch of times. Guys help me out here, I cant remember how to spell the last name, Walters or Wolters, but the book is Training a Retriever to Handle.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

2tall said:


> Guys help me out here, I cant remember how to spell the last name, Walters or Wolters, but the book is Training a Retriever to Handle.


It's D.L. Walters, the guy who taught it to me in 1977 at his place. 'Wolters' was a very different guy. 

Evan


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Is the book still available anywhere? I've googled and not found. I had to give the one I had back to its owner when I left SC. Sure would like to get a copy.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

2tall said:


> Is the book still available anywhere? I've googled and not found. I had to give the one I had back to its owner when I left SC. Sure would like to get a copy.


Found this - www.gundogsupply.com/trainretoha.html


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I have done walking baseball for years .. I did one tonight a little while ago. Great for whatever ails you. In my opinion and I don't have any personal interests in it, Evans DVD is much better explained then D.L Walters, Training Retrievers To Handle, although a excellent book and Lardy in His early TRT reccommends it. It isn't as complicated as it looks in D L ' book it is better demonstrated by a experienced person or watch Evan's DVD in my opinion.


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## Webbs515 (Feb 6, 2010)

thanks for the info. its been a few years since i used walking baseball with a pro. been reviewing evan's video. just wanting to see it on paper too. thanks for the help.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

2tall said:


> Is the book still available anywhere? I've googled and not found. I had to give the one I had back to its owner when I left SC. Sure would like to get a copy.


Once in a while a copy pops up on Amazon, and on rarer occasion, eBay. Good luck. It's a fine book.

Check this http://www.amazon.com/Training-Retrievers-Handle-D-Walters/dp/B0006DYMP0

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Just found a couple on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trk...ining+retrievers+to+handle&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Evan


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Don't spend the big $ for the Walter's book just for the diagram of Walking Baseball. It's plain not worth that kind of money.

I don't want to say it's a worthless drill. Most dogs like it and I guess it will get them taking better casts, but I really don't think it's necessary for most dogs. I've done it a little but don't see any advantage to it over other casting drills.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Howard N said:


> Don't spend the big $ for the Walter's book just for the diagram of Walking Baseball. It's plain not worth that kind of money.
> 
> I don't want to say it's a worthless drill. Most dogs like it and I guess it will get them taking better casts, but I really don't think it's necessary for most dogs. I've done it a little but don't see any advantage to it over other casting drills.


The fact that it's a 1 man drill makes it usefull for a lot of folks who don't always have a group or a good helper.

Bert


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, I train alone and don't use it. What casting drill takes a helper? Not that I'd do it see the first sentence. To me a casting drill is just me, my dog and 5 piles of bumpers. You reinforce the casts by keeping to literal casts in training.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

There are several types of useful casting drills, some of which require either a helper, or launcher. I find ways of making most of them helpful. Walking Baseball is highly versatile, and can have an element of suction if it's done right. Very good drill for those who train alone. I still believe most trainers who use WBB don't really do it as it was designed. I credit D.L. with a simple but brilliant design.

Evan


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## slickwater1 (Jun 12, 2012)

As a new trainer that is learning the game, I can see a great deal of value with WBB. It not only helps the dog, but it has helped me learn how to handle my dog.


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

Wolters vs,. Walters. Now that's funny. One or both of them are spinning in their graves at the comparison. 

As to the book being pricey for just the diagram, I agree. But there is so much more to that book. It is a complete program for teaching dogs to line and handle. It is also a glimpse into dog training history. The edition I have is pre-collar. Instead they use slingshots, BB and shotguns along with a particularly nasty little whip used by a hidden helper. Makes the collar look good.


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## Brettttka (Feb 9, 2013)

Does any one have a better picture of the drill or know of an online video that shows a good example. Will end up doing a lot of training alone and would like to see an example.


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## Webbs515 (Feb 6, 2010)

Howard N said:


> Don't spend the big $ for the Walter's book just for the diagram of Walking Baseball. It's plain not worth that kind of money.
> 
> I don't want to say it's a worthless drill. Most dogs like it and I guess it will get them taking better casts, but I really don't think it's necessary for most dogs. I've done it a little but don't see any advantage to it over other casting drills.


Just curious, what other drills do you use or think is better?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

We run Walking Baseball often, at least once a week.
I try to incorporate at least 2 of each cast when we run it.
We do this when we train alone, it sharpens up casting, front square sit and team work.
We run at varying distances and angles.
Don't need much equipment either, just 2 bumpers & a field.
Elvis loves to run it.

JMO


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Brettttka said:


> Does any one have a better picture of the drill or know of *an online video that shows a good example*. Will end up doing a lot of training alone and would like to see an example.


Here's a glimpse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcktsyHLTYk

Evan


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Evan said:


> Here's a glimpse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcktsyHLTYk
> 
> Evan


Very generous, Evan! Thanks for posting that link!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Don't spend the big $ for the Walter's book just for the diagram of Walking Baseball. It's plain not worth that kind of money.
> 
> I don't want to say it's a worthless drill. Most dogs like it and I guess it will get them taking better casts, but I really don't think it's necessary for most dogs. I've done it a little but don't see any advantage to it over other casting drills.


I did it with my first dog long ago, it was okay, but as my exposure to better trainers (both pros and ams) I've gotten into the same mind set as Howard. 

And I truly believe running cold blinds is more productive than running a ton of drills...you just have to adjust your expectations as the dog is learning and slowly increase standards. 

FOM


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

TexGold said:


> Wolters vs,. Walters. Now that's funny. One or both of them are spinning in their graves at the comparison.
> 
> As to the book being pricey for just the diagram, I agree. But there is so much more to that book. It is a complete program for teaching dogs to line and handle. It is also a glimpse into dog training history. The edition I have is pre-collar. Instead they use slingshots, BB and shotguns along with a particularly nasty little whip used by a hidden helper. Makes the collar look good.


LOL! Yes I know that is a terrible mistake to make. But for sure I meant DL.  And to Howard, no way would I buy it at these prices for just that one drill. I really got more out of this whole book than just about any source with my first dog. Bach Doar told me that DL was totally dissatisfied with the way the WBB diagram came out. He just could not get it down on paper. Evan's video link here is very good, but unfortunately I have to shrink it down to fit the small spaces I mostly inhabit.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Webbs515 said:


> Just curious, what other drills do you use or think is better?



Here's about the only casting drill I do with my older dogs. I copied and pasted what I've written in the past on this drill. It's been posted on the RTF a few times so some will be pretty bored with it. The only other casting drill I do is/are the baseball drills that I do in basics with the puppies.










 I do this every couple of weeks with my older dogs in different places My transition level early advanced dogs get this drill sometime after the double T four or five times a week at the same place until they're smooth. I then move it to other places with the little guys. With the old dogs I believe it keeps casting sharp and gives me an over when I need it. I line to each pile first and then cast. Mostly on featureless fields but also sometimes where there's cover and some terrain. I didn't make this drill up I stole it fair and square from Jim Gonia. No one drill keeps a high casting standard, you have to reinforce good casts in the field. This drill just ensures in my mind that the dog knows what the casts are so when they don't do it on an actual blind, I can make a fair correction.


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## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

Howard gave me this drill a couple of years ago and it is brilliant. It is amazing that I have never had a dog complete it perfectly even the titled ones!


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

It seems the take away message in a lot of these casting/lining discussions, is that all the drills work! They were all designed (and at some point) used by a successful someone to successfully develop a dog to a very high level. It seems the specific drill, is more a function of what the handler enjoys running, and what they read their dog gains benefit from. The important thing is to practice, practice, practice! The best way to improve casting/handling is to practice casting/handling!

I have a 10 month old that I have been running WBB with. I really enjoy running it, and my pup seems to really enjoy it, and learn from it. I like the fact that it is not a static position type drill, and offers the flexability and versatility to add different factors, terrain and distances to cast and distances to carry casts...all within the same session. I'v read DL's book, but Evan's DVD for $12 is the best explanation I've seen of WBB.

On a side note, I ran an impromptu, shortened version of Howard's drill this morning, and see it as a very useful drill as well. Will definately be running the full length version, and incorporate it into our training. Thanks for sharing Howard!


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Here's about the only casting drill I do with my older dogs. I copied and pasted what I've written in the past on this drill. It's been posted on the RTF a few times so some will be pretty bored with it. The only other casting drill I do is/are the baseball drills that I do in basics with the puppies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this Howard. I'm going to try it.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

laker said:


> Thanks for posting this Howard. I'm going to try it.


Have you seen the handling patterns of D.L. Walters, which have a strong resemblance to this one? Very similar principles.

Evan


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> Have you seen the handling patterns of D.L. Walters, which have a strong resemblance to this one? Very similar principles.
> 
> Evan


. Meow! Too bad that Lardy guy won't go away and stop selling his training program.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Howard, I am a little confused as to how you run this. You mention lining the dogs first, and then casting. So are you stopping them midway to one pile and sending them to another? Or are you just sitting the dog facing you somewhere in the middle and casting from the line? Sorry, I must have missed the first go round. Thanks for posting.


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

Howard,

After you line the piles, are you about 10 yards +/- from the dog while doing the casting portion of this drill? Thanks for the clarification.

Damon Sweep


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> . Meow! Too bad that Lardy guy won't go away and stop selling his training program.


Which has what to do with anything? They're in D.L.'s book, previously discussed in this thread. It has nothing to do with me, or what I teach. _Very_ helpful. 

Evan


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

dlsweep said:


> Howard,
> 
> After you line the piles, are you about 10 yards +/- from the dog while doing the casting portion of this drill? Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Damon Sweep


Yup, there are two dark lines drawn on the diagram. I line each pile from the close one, sit the dog and go ~10 yards away and then cast to a pile, receive the dog from where he was sent and then rinse and repeat to another pile. I do not stop and cast to another pile once they are going to the pile I cast them to. I want precise LONG casts from the dog, so I don't do anything that in my mind might encourage a dig back. You can line and cast to the piles in any order you want. With young dogs, I like to do all the left (or right) hand casts and then do all the right (or left casts if I did right casts first) hand casts. There's a lot of suction in this drill and it takes my pups a couple of weeks to get all the casts right. Then it takes at least a week in a new place for them to get all the casts right in the new place. In time they get it in different places much quicker. Bam and Missy have both gone to a new place and taken all the casts right the first time, but you can't depend on it, which is why I still do it with the old dogs.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> Which has what to do with anything? They're in D.L.'s book, previously discussed in this thread. It has nothing to do with me, or what I teach. _Very_ helpful.
> 
> Evan


The fact is, that everything that you have in your information is stuff that came from other people. There is nothing original. And when you have tweaked different drills I find that they are only lead to confusion for a new person. Which only creates more questions. But you always have a video or something to fix that, don't you?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> The fact is...


You really don't know anything about my program. That's a fact.

Evan


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## slickwater1 (Jun 12, 2012)

you signature quote from Mark Twain just about explains it all Mr Graham. Your program is great, but someone always has to be the party pooper.


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

For an end of transition dog, during the first few times running this drill would you recall for a PIL? 

How about a bad cast? Would you: Recall, sit nick sit, use attrition giving literal casts and work it out?

Thanks for the constructive dialog.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> You really don't know anything about my program. That's a fact.
> 
> Evan


Well Bless your heart. You obviously haven't gone through your old receipts to see that I have actually purchased some of your stuff. I stopped. I also have looked at much of the rest. And I have done a thorough comparison of Smartworks vs. TRT. I have stopped looking at Smart works because of all the questions it creates. You see countless questions on this board, and at one location I train where people use Smartworks. It's really a system of drills, which newbies tend to like. 



> Originally Posted by *Howard N*
> 
> Don't spend the big $ for the Walter's book just for the diagram of Walking Baseball. It's plain not worth that kind of money.
> 
> ...


FOM's comment hits the nail on the head. As you learn more, you get away from doing drill after drill after drill. You only need "key drills"... not a mountain of them. 

I didn't sell the Smartworks or give it away, because that would be hypocritical when i can't in my heart of hearts recommend the program. 



> ...but someone always has to be the party pooper.


And yes, it's too bad when someone has to come on RTF and take a cheap shot at an SUCCESSFUL amateur who posts free knowledge and advice with no expectations for anything - not a sale of goods or services, no name dropping of dead people where relationships purportedly cannot be verified, and not even an expectation of a thank you. It is this kind of thing that has caused some really good amateurs to stop posting training advice. RTF is not half the resource it used to be.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

JusticeDog said:


> Well Bless your heart. You obviously haven't gone through your old receipts to see that I have actually purchased some of your stuff. I stopped. I also have looked at much of the rest. And I have done a thorough comparison of Smartworks vs. TRT. I have stopped looking at Smart works because of all the questions it creates. You see countless questions on this board, and at one location I train where people use Smartworks. It's really a system of drills, which newbies tend to like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Really? There are a lot of good people and advisors on RTF. A lot, actually. If there have been those who don't participate anymore, I'd say it's more likely because it gets tiresome to keep repeating the same knowledge or that they're just plain tired. And less because there are newbies who stand up for people who are getting bullied.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> [/B]
> 
> Really? There are a lot of good people and advisors on RTF. A lot, actually. If there have been those who don't participate anymore, I'd say it's more likely because it gets tiresome to keep repeating the same knowledge or that they're just plain tired. And less because there are newbies who stand up for people who are getting bullied.


Jennifer- You have been on RTF for a year. you have no idea about the people with true knowledge who used to post here, and why they no longer do. And no, there are not "a lot" who participate here anymore. There used to be "a lot" who participated at Howard's level ie: field champions that have gotten national dance cards. There aren't anymore. They have gotten tired of support of those who do not deserve it. It has nothing to do with repeating information. It's how they are treated when it's given.

Try to name 12 people who regularly post on RTF any longer who have a field champion or amateur field champion. Then go back and look about 5 years. If I have a training question, RTF is not the place I come to post the question any longer.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Well, maybe RTF isn't what it "used to be" for you. But it's pretty damn good for those of us who appreciate it. Maybe RTF isn't a refuge for FC earning veterans anymore. Maybe it's more for strugglers now who need a boost in their first few years of learning. 

Sorry it's not what you wish it is, but that's not a good reason to insult people who haven't insulted anyone else (that I've seen in the last year).


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Well, maybe RTF isn't what it "used to be" for you. But it's pretty damn good for those of us who appreciate it. Maybe RTF isn't a refuge for FC earning veterans anymore. Maybe it's more for strugglers now who need a boost in their first few years of learning.
> 
> Sorry it's not what you wish it is, but that's not a good reason to insult people who haven't insulted anyone else (that I've seen in the last year).


Jennifer- the person you think hasn't insulted anyone has done quite a bit of it. Go back and look. It used to be a resource for everyone - FC earning veterans and newbies. But newbies and incidents like this thread have driven them off when someone is insulted by the person you feel is a shining star. That cheap shot towards Howard was uncalled for. Who has time for this kind of b.s.? Maybe people would be more willing to help those who talk about training more than their hormones. 

Some of us who have been around a long time just don't appreciate RTF being _only_ for the birkenstock wearing, clicker trainers. And those who think we all have to love the same thing. 

And I don't have to like smart works, and I have read it and analyzed it. Tried it. Didn't like it. Unlike some who may just not like Mr. Graham, I have a basis for my opinion. And, I'm quite entitled to state it. If you like Smartworks, that's fine. to each their own. Obviously, I have been successful without the use of Mr. Graham's program.

Oh, and there really is no reason to swear.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I'll just let you dance on your own stage at this point...

No Birkenstock's in my closet, regards-


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I'll just let you dance on your own stage at this point...
> 
> No Birkenstock's in my closet, regards-


your pretty amusing....  funny how you thought I meant you.... 



> _We use clicker -treat training methods ....._


happy clicking regards -


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Click means treat, not Birkenstocks or communism.

Sorry you're having a bad day, Susan! Hope tomorrow goes better. You usually have my respect.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Click means treat, not Birkenstocks or communism.
> 
> Sorry you're having a bad day, Susan! Hope tomorrow goes better. You usually have my respect.


I am actually having a great day Jennifer. And I intend to do the same thing tomorrow. I am really not sure why you started discussing communism. That is thread that would belong in POTUS. 

I am well aware of how to use the clicker, and even use them with puppies. Typically I just substitute the word "yes" in place of the click these days. It is much easier to use when shaping the puppies behavior. You always have the word "yes" with you, but you may not be able to find your clicker. I also find that it is easier to use for new people when you're trying To get the timing correct.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Meow!


Just sayin'.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I had a huge scalloping problem-HAD-until I started Howard's drill he shared here. It is now in my book of drills with a big star by it, no more walking baseball. I train alone 90% of the time too. 

As for the RTF culture I came in on the tail end of "good old days", the thing I notice the most besides the lack of input from the really good trainers, is the inability to take criticism in any form. Sometimes it is best to shut up when someone who is knowledgeable and experienced talks. And a little respect of that knowledge/experience would be nice. 

mediocracy is not the new norm-otherwise why do we all seek out the puppies with the big titles behind them? 

Thick skinned marsh mop owner regards,


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> You really don't know anything about my program. That's a fact.
> 
> Evan


I do. I have had so many clients because of your program and seminars. You can't train dogs from videos. Hope your sales are up

/paul


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

Bump in case Howard would be kind enough to reply to my follow-up question that got lost in the shuffle.

TIA

Damon


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

dlsweep said:


> For an end of transition dog, during the first few times running this drill would you recall for a PIL?
> 
> How about a bad cast? Would you: Recall, sit nick sit, use attrition giving literal casts and work it out?
> 
> Thanks for the constructive dialog.


The first time I run this drill with a new pup I will most likely follow the pup to keep the distance between him and me short, stop and handle like a normal blind as they drift offline. It would have to be a complete bail out before I'd call a pup at that level back. Also, it's a pretty featureless field so there isn't a lot there to send them offline.

I don't burn on this drill. I'm going to repeat it over several days and I do not want any hot spots giving the dog baggage out there. Also, they don't know precise casting at this age. What would you burn for? If they are giving you effort and having trouble you want to simplify. If he keeps giving you an angle left when you want a straight back left then move up closer to the back pile 10 yards, if he still f's it up, stop and move up another 5-10 yards. Figure the dog is trying, so you teach and encourage him. You do not want him to be giving you the best he can give you, and you're burning him for it. Just think what that would do to your attitude if your roles were reversed. I wouldn't want to work for a boss like that. You don't let him get away with a bad cast, of course, but keep corrections to a matter of fact, "No," and a whistle sit. Not a mad, "NO!" Even for the big dogs, when doing this drill, I have a rule of thumb of two bad casts in a row and I simplify. Usually, in this drill, that means I move up. I both move the dog closer to the pile and also I cast from closer to the dog.


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

Thank you Howard!


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