# Encouraging "The Point"



## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

Im probably going to get bashed by the non pointing lab folks, but here goes anyway....

My new pup has demonstrated on a few occasions the tendency "point" So maybe I have a pointing lab on my hands. I don't have any live birds to test her on yet, so today I did the "Wing on a fishing rod" thing and sure enough she pointed it. I realize its a "sight point" but maybe its got some potential.....Now my question is how can I encourage it?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Put a marker word to it and reward her for doing the behavior with food or allowing her to chase/catch it. You have a way to induce it (wing and pole).

If you understand marker words then you'll know that if you create the association between the marker and reward the dog will continue doing the same behavior (pointing) for longer and longer while it is waiting to be released.

If you've never worked with markers look up "Michael Ellis Classical Conditioning". Michael explains the concept in a free video as concisely as anyone I have ever seen.

My Hope flash points like that sometimes and my marker word is "GET READY"


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Been down this road before. The dog either points or it doesn't. Keep in mind this is about genetics.....not a "marker" contrived behavior. 

I can get about any Lab pup to eventually "point" a bird on a string....just get them too tired to try catching and "voila" they will point....probably more like "standing". 

Mike, just get the pup on some wild birds, good flying pen raised quail/chukars or feral pigeons and leave it to the genetics. The more you "interfere".....the more conflicted it will become.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

In the pointer training arena, we don’t want the pup to catch the wing. Their job is to point and our job is to teach “whoa”. An old saying…The bird sez whoa…


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

ya dont let him catch it. Just let it happen and make no big deal of of it.. Read Julie Knutsons book and get a better idea of what your dealing with. Assuming you want that.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

And now that you've done the "wing on a string", put it away and be done with that. It's a cute parlor trick, but doing it more than once or twice ends up being detrimental. Otherwise, you'll teach that pup to sight point. Get that pup into cover and using its nose instead of tis eyes.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> And now that you've done the "wing on a string", put it away and be done with that. It's a cute parlor trick, but doing it more than once or twice ends up being detrimental. Otherwise, you'll teach that pup to sight point. Get that pup into cover and using its nose instead of tis eyes.


 No kiddin Sharon , I hate it when clients say they have done this over and over!!! Hey might be looking for an apprentice pointing dog trainer if you know anyone...


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## Canuck (Jun 9, 2011)

Both of my previous labs, once they had learned the upland hunting game and put the bird and the gun together, learned to stand game and not flush until I caught up. My present lab sight points. So if we see a bird ahead on the trail (I hunt a lot of ruffed grouse) she freezes in a classic looking point. She often sees the birds before I do. She also "points" birds if she first winds them when they are already very close to her, basically under her nose. In each of these cases I have to tell her to get 'em up before she will flush. I like these traits and learned behaviors. I don't test or trial my dog...we just hunt.

Canuck


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> And now that you've done the "wing on a string", put it away and be done with that.* It's a cute parlor trick*, but doing it more than once or twice ends up being detrimental. Otherwise, you'll teach that pup to sight point. Get that pup into cover and using its nose instead of tis eyes.


No it is not and I can't believe you said that...for Pete sake. Damn.... I do agree not doing it too much....It is a drill and it is to teach pup a command with drills before hand.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Sorry, but I disagree.  Wing on a string is a cute thing to do to see a little puppy point a time or two. After that, put it away and get to *real* birds, birds and more birds. It's not a drill, and I cannot for the life of me imagine why it would be. 
Dogs that learn to sight point are problematic because they tend to want to always see the bird before really locking up tight. They slow down, creep in.....and that bumps way too many birds, which in turn means missed shot opportunities. 
Wing on a string is great fun to play with, just to see a puppy point. Beyond that, there's no real reason to do it.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Sorry, but I disagree.  Wing on a string is a cute thing to do to see a little puppy point a time or two. After that, put it away and get to *real* birds, birds and more birds. It's not a drill, and I cannot for the life of me imagine why it would be.
> Dogs that learn to sight point are problematic because they tend to want to always see the bird before really locking up tight. They slow down, creep in.....and that bumps way too many birds, which in turn means missed shot opportunities.
> Wing on a string is great fun to play with, just to see a puppy point. Beyond that, there's no real reason to do it.


BS...BS...BS. I can't believe I am reading this... My old man is turning in his grave as I type. I am now on deaf ears. 
Those folks out there who want training in the pointing world please go to a site that has experience. 
I will not AND I repeat not add any more to this thread. Damn :-x


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> Sorry, but I disagree.  Wing on a string is a cute thing to do to see a little puppy point a time or two. After that, put it away and get to *real* birds, birds and more birds. It's not a drill, and I cannot for the life of me imagine why it would be.
> Dogs that learn to sight point are problematic because they tend to want to always see the bird before really locking up tight. They slow down, creep in.....and that bumps way too many birds, which in turn means missed shot opportunities.
> Wing on a string is great fun to play with, just to see a puppy point. Beyond that, there's no real reason to do it.


Yep.............


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

BJ would you mind telling us YOUR credentials? Sharon works with some of the top pointing dog people in the world,( have you ever heard of the Smith family?) and is a published author . I fully agree with Sharon and firmly don't encourage our puppy buyers to play with wings and strings. Expose to birds, teach whoa , expose to gun , then put it all together...


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks for the input folks. I'm really not looking to "train" her to point. I just want to encourage any natural tendency to point that may be there. If she winds up being flusher that's fine. But if she does point NATURALLY that's a bonus. She has shown now on several times a pointing tendency. As well the Sire has thrown pointing pups before so she may have it...keeping my fingers crossed.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> BJ would you mind telling us YOUR credentials? Sharon works with some of the top pointing dog people in the world,( have you ever heard of the Smith family?) and is a published author . I fully agree with Sharon and firmly don't encourage our puppy buyers to play with wings and strings. Expose to birds, teach whoa , expose to gun , then put it all together...


If you want my past then look up Gatley and see how many Dual champions the Gatley's have. I rest my case and this thread!!!!!

One dual champion was "Here comes the judge". look it up.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I am sorry BJ , I have done a couple of searches and without know what breed you are talking about can't find anything


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I am sorry BJ , I have done a couple of searches and without know what breed you are talking about can't find anything


 Brittany spaniels.








This is our first dual champion. Don Juan.


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> Sorry, but I disagree.  Wing on a string is a cute thing to do to see a little puppy point a time or two. After that, put it away and get to *real* birds, birds and more birds. It's not a drill, and I cannot for the life of me imagine why it would be.
> Dogs that learn to sight point are problematic because they tend to want to always see the bird before really locking up tight. They slow down, creep in.....and that bumps way too many birds, which in turn means missed shot opportunities.
> Wing on a string is great fun to play with, just to see a puppy point. Beyond that, there's no real reason to do it.


 I agree Wing on a string is waste of time :: But If only people knew the secret of how to and the what of sight pointing can do for dog training they would change their thinking of how to train a pointing dog (( but I wont tell) 

Sight point has very little to do with dog creeping in to bump birds in my opinion . But then again I don't know the details of what you talk about. 

I bet you will find dog slows down creeps in and bumps bird and man shoots bird. Dog continues to slow down creep in bump birds for the rest of dogs life. 

rule No # 1 with pointing dog . Never shoot a bird dogs bumps or flush. 

Pup is worked on Quail - Quail are No# 1 worse bird for pup to be trained on. There are much better birds. But pup slows down creeps in and points quail .Stupid quail walks on ground and dog sees this quail . Quail is flushed by handler but the pup Slowed down and creeps in on Quail , pheasant or Chucker all the time before they pointed these stupid birds and this behavior is reinforced each time and so pup NEVER learns to stand back and point birds way off . Solution - Racing Homers trained to come out of electronic traps at break necking speeds and or wild birds and or Hungarian Partridge will teach Pointer they can not crowd birds . Just my opinion for what it is worth , probably less than 2 cents. 

Pointer people might try pigeons in Electronic release trap. Pointer smells bird slows down (( pop birds out of trap )) Dog points pigeons takes ONE STEP > Pop bird out of trap . Dog smells birds and dose not slam on breaks but is moving in closer (( Pop Bird )) Soon dog learns to point 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 yards out . After more than 40 years of using pigeons I have proven that done right dogs will become steady to wing and shot and point standing way back on birds and no creeping in and then go in to the woods and point Grouse from first contact . May take lots and lots of days afield. A dog that sight points can be gotten steady to wing and shot much faster than dog that will not sight point I believe. www.crosscreekkennel.biz by the way I am NOT interesting in working any pointing dogs I just post this so you can see a few pictures of True class pointing dogs. 

But with that said - I have used my labs over the years to keep my racing pigeons off the ground when they were out exercising . I would send the dog after them to flush the birds up because I would NOT allow them on the ground ever. After weeks or months of lab chasing birds up off ground , my lab would start to sight point. Then They started to scent point birds I used in recall pens. I used the labs to get the recall birds wild before I put pointing dogs on them. Labs were kept steady to flush as not to chase the birds. Mistake on my part I guess to let them chase pigeons like that - My lab became worthless as a flushing dog and would not flush any longer, but would point. So which came first the egg or the chicken ?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

This the second dual champion. 
View attachment 20304


Hondo de brit. My sister is doing the show part.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

These are the ribbons in the first year.


View attachment 20305


I rest my case.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Got any in the Hall of Fame? 

edited to add: It also lends credibility when you get the breed of dog you're talking about right. They're Brittanies. The spaniel part was dropped a few decades ago. 

Now, I don't care if you want to play wing on a string until the cows come home. If that's your thing, knock yourself out....have fun...enjoy yourself. But acting like your opinion is the only right one on the planet and that those of us who disagree are clueless just isn't gonna fly, my friend.


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

James Seibel said:


> rule No # 1 with pointing dog . Never shoot a bird dogs bumps or flush.


^^^^^^ This. I used to shoot everything my dog kicked up, and guess what he started flushing everything. Then when I decided I wanted to chase titles my trainer had to watch alot of my money fly away to recondition my dog into thinking about what his role was in this relationship. I agree with one of the earlier posters that you can teach a lab to do just about anything but some of these dogs have a very natural tenancy to point and they can be tested on that aswell. Check out the American Pointing Lab Association

http://youtu.be/b1Gxzk7PrE0

My puppy at 14 weeks displaying what is obviously trained behavior...lol


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Got any in the Hall of Fame?


I don't know? I believe there was no such thing back then, but I could be wrong. Go check it out. Please understand I only shown two dual champions and there were several more. I believe I don't have to show any more on the Gatley's passion in which I was involved in...Well until I had to join the military. ;-) IMO this thread does not served any more purpose.


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## Rhenee Fadling (May 23, 2008)

A great training book is "Training the Pointing Retriever" by Julie Knutson. Also the American Pointing Labrador Assoc. (APLA) has a great website/forum is a great resource too. Enjoy your pup, enjoy the ride! Pointing labs are a lot of fun to hunt with.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

You are right, but at least show or tell folks the reason for the wing on a line and it is not a cutesy thing.


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

BJGatley said:


> Brittany spaniels.
> View attachment 20303
> 
> 
> This is our first dual champion. Don Juan.


I love Spaniels, I grew up with Springer's (not comparing the two I know yours point). Congratulations on your many successes these kinds of accomplishments are no easy task and you dont just get lucky  But I yield that the pointing Labrador is a completely different animal with a different drive and requires a slightly modified program from your standard pointing breed.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Shoot only over good points, which means the dog does NOT flush the bird. The gun or a wild flush is good, any dog movement that results in a flush. is bad


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

motor-vater said:


> I love Spaniels, I grew up with Springer's (not comparing the two I know yours point). Congratulations on your many successes these kinds of accomplishments are no easy task and you dont just get lucky  But I yield that the pointing Labrador is a completely different animal with a different drive and requires a slightly modified program from your standard pointing breed.


I totally agree with.  With a pointer being it a lab or pointer species, we don't want them to bump birds out....if that is our true intentions. We want them to stay and continue staying there until bird is flush by us and not by them. Just saying...


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

BJGatley said:


> I totally agree with.  With a pointer being it a lab or pointer species, we don't want them to bump birds out....if that is our true intentions. We want them to stay and continue staying there until bird is flush by us and not by them. Just saying...


Agreed.... Hunting over a pointer, any kind of pointer is the way. The older I get, the less willing I am to try to keep pace with an energetic young dog on his own mission. Civilized people hunt over pointers... Just sayin

There that otta get the bee's buzzin around here again...lol


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Yes. The flush should come from us...and then it is a matter to use to train dog on being steady and release on our command...that is the perfect world.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

motor-vater said:


> Agreed.... Hunting over a pointer, any kind of pointer is the way. The older I get, the less willing I am to try to keep pace with an energetic young dog on his own mission. Civilized people hunt over pointers... Just sayin
> 
> There that otta get the bee's buzzin around here again...lol


Yes, but understand the point could be 50 yards are so and dog will stay there and maybe do a "J" to keep birds from moving...hopefully giving you time to flush bird. If bird moves, then dog adjusts.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Shoot only over good points, which means the dog does NOT flush the bird. The gun or a wild flush is good,* any dog movement that results in a flush. is bad[*/QUOTE]
> 
> The dog is taught whoa and if done right will not cause a flush... And yes to your answer...A miss opportunity for game in your hunting vest.


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

In a perfect world, my dog will hold a point tell I get there, then I tell him "Get um up!" Bird goes up, dogs butt goes down, and my shotgun barrel would not be bent! Lol but it does happen like that every so often and those are the days I relish!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Please remember you are the one who kicks the bird up, not the dog.  Dog should be doing a stanch hold so to speak not sit. 

The reason I say that is in case the hunter misses bird and bird continues flying.

I want to add and I am done...If you miss and bird fly's away...the look you get from your dog goes deep within you soul. Those who know understand quite well what I am saying......


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Mike (the OP) will figure this out. The most important factor in this issue is a failure to recognize that retrieving skills and pointing in the uplands are contrary behaviors. 

Most bird dog and retriever trainers do not understand the conflict. Trainers of the versatile breeds have figured it out. However, Labs are not bred to be versatile. Therefore, a person that decides to "go with" a pointing Lab is not only conflicted with the needs of his dog but with how to go about preparing to do both. In addition, there is always the question of genetics.....natural point (or not). 

Mike is in the beginning stages of his conflict. It begins with does my pup have the genetic makeup of actually being a natural pointer? If he does, then training for the two disciplines requires special adjustments and a great deal more time. Most retriever trainers want a sequential program. The pointing Lab is better dealt with by compartmentalizing the contrary skill sets. It is not easy and takes more time. 

Labs are smart dogs. There are really talented trainers that can *almost* teach a Lab to point. Many that are taught *look like it.* However, if the genetics are there training is *different* and can be very rewarding. 

A famous bird dog trainer Bill West took two field trial bred Labs and spent many, many months trying to develop what appeared to be pointing Labs. When he concluded this work, he had several, interesting comments. First of all, it was the most difficult training that he had every done. Secondly, it took way longer than he expected and lastly, IT WAS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT. 

note: While training he did zero retriever work. 

Mind you these were well bred field trial Labs with a great deal of prey drive that exhibited no natural tendency to point. 

I couldn't help myself and "Googled" this topic "Bird Dog...Wing on a String".










*Wing on a String (link)*


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

KwickLabs said:


> Mike (the OP) will figure this out. The most important factor in this issue is a failure to recognize that retrieving skills and pointing in the uplands are contrary behaviors.
> 
> Most bird dog and retriever trainers do not understand the conflict. Trainers of the versatile breeds have figured it out. However, Labs are not bred to be versatile. Therefore, a person that decides to "go with" a pointing Lab is not only conflicted with the needs of his dog but with how to go about preparing to do both. In addition, there is always the question of genetics.....natural point (or not).
> 
> ...


You people need to understand the methods use in training pointers....Nice try....I can't beleive this site is so bias to those who don't have a understanding and then will go to extreme measures to show or pound theirs chests to dis-flower to those who know the game. I am in utter perplex and maybe I need to go to another site that has people that know what they are talking about. As I said before.....I call a spade a spade. Geez......

Chris...I am out of here. Your audience is out of control and to their own interests....Very sad.... Please delete my username....thanks.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Bj said
> 
> 
> > _"I can't beleive this site is so bias to those who don't have a understanding and then will go to extreme measures to show or pound theirs chests to dis-flower to those who know the game. I am in utter perplex"_


I read that post and decided to let it simmer...."aired" my older dogs and contemplated some more. Then it came to me....discretion is a "cool" word.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

BJ I am pretty certain you have no clue to whom you speak..... LOL shaking my head


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

BJ, sad that you choose to leave just because everybody isn't agreeing with you. I'm not sure why yours are the only credentials that are permitted to have any value or merit?

I can get together with any one of my pointing dog compadres and we can debate the merits of different training methods and nobody's feeling get hurt.

Just so you know I didn't exactly fall off the turnip truck yesterday:
The guys I run with have trained and handled 7 NFCs (and most were DCs as well)and are both in the Field Trial Hall of Fame. When they talk, I pay attention. You're a Brittany guy...the names Delmar Smith and Rick Smith have to ring a few bells. Rick trained the only Brittany in history to win a three hour endurance championship running against pointers and setters. I train a lot of pointing dogs of all breeds and just this year, two of them earned their VC with NAVHDA. I've trained others in past years that are also VCs. Also have been writing a regular training column for Pointing Dog Journal for going on about 14 years now, and have traveled all over this country and abroad doing seminars.

Please note: I'm not listing this stuff to play the "mine's bigger than yours" game. I'm bringing it up because it's important to address your idea that you're the only one here who knows how to train pointing dogs and the rest of us are all ignorant. 

Peace.

p.s. Here's my Brittany, Cody: 

.


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

Lotta big egos here is this dog thing.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

My dogs will point in the parking lot at Walmart. It's called Whoa. I can train a Pitbull to point, but finding birds might be a problem and bringing them back in one peace will be a real good day. Wing on a string is a good way to start, to see if the dog has any natural instinct to point. most Labs do not do well with this, because their instinct to retrieve is to high. Right to the whoa board would be my first chose.

Keith


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Not having much luck w/ the retrieving however...


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

truthseeker said:


> My dogs will point in the parking lot at Walmart. It's called Whoa. I can train a Pitbull to point, but finding birds might be a problem and bringing them back in one peace will be a real good day. Wing on a string is a good way to start, to see if the dog has any natural instinct to point. most Labs do not do well with this, because their instinct to retrieve is to high. Right to the whoa board would be my first chose.
> 
> Keith


How do you explain then the GSP that was the Greatest Ruffed Grouse & Woodcock dog I have ever seen or owned would Not point a wing on a string to save my life ? I have seen a few other great bird dogs that did not point a wing as pup but just chase and chase it. What would be the point in going on with such nonsense ? 

I say again - pointing a wing proves very little in the end of rather a dog can point a Grouse by scent. Might be a cute thing to see. 

So one of my present labs I am working points my Cats with his paw up does this mean he will point Grouse ? 

Just saying 

jim


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

James Seibel said:


> How do you explain then the GSP that was the Greatest Ruffed Grouse & Woodcock dog I have ever seen or owned would Not point a wing on a string to save my life ? I have seen a few other great bird dogs that did not point a wing as pup but just chase and chase it. What would be the point in going on with such nonsense ?
> 
> I say again - pointing a wing proves very little in the end of rather a dog can point a Grouse by scent. Might be a cute thing to see.
> 
> ...


There is always exception to the rule in everything that we do. Just like I said most don't do well with the string on the wing, not all labs. 

This is what you get on the internet. Some see a few dogs and think they know it all.

Keith


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

truthseeker said:


> There is always exception to the rule in everything that we do. Just like I said most don't do well with the string on the wing, not all labs.
> 
> This is what you get on the internet. Some see a few dogs and think they know it all.
> 
> Keith


I agree there are exceptions to the rule . But I have seen many or plenty of pointing dogs , name any breed of Pointing dog you want that pointed wings on string that could not handle or point Pennsylvania Ruffed Grouse.But then again to think of it I have seen AKC field Champions that were only ever tested on planted birds that could not point wild birds. 

In the end the nose knows all ?

But one last thing about dogs that sight point , what is a dog doing when they back another dog ? 

My 2 cents for what it is worth .


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I see 50-80 pointing dogs EVERY YEAR, whether it be puppies I have bred, young dogs coming back for lessons or dogs checked in for training, POINTING dogs are how I make a living, retrievers are my personal dogs, how bout you guys? By the way, Pretty sure Jim and Sharon also make a living training dogs...


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I see 50-80 pointing dogs EVERY YEAR, whether it be puppies I have bred, young dogs coming back for lessons or dogs checked in for training, POINTING dogs are how I make a living, retrievers are my personal dogs, how bout you guys? By the way, Pretty sure Jim and Sharon also make a living training dogs...


I train 4-6 a year. I see nothing wrong with what you said, Mr Seibel likes to talk in absolutes and we all know there is none. Wing on a string is a fun little drill to do, when playing with your pup and in the end it well not matter, if you did or didn't play the game. Just like puppy retrieves are fun to do with your Retriever, but you don't expect much. Like I said right to the Whoa board would be my first chose.

Keith


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

BJGatley said:


> In the pointer training arena, we don’t want the pup to catch the wing. Their job is to point and our job is to teach “whoa”. An old saying…The bird sez whoa…


it was my assumption, when I said "let her catch it" that the gentleman didn't want his retriever not to retrieve, as is the case with many pointers


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I just register with another forum and when approved, that is where I will place my hat. So this is probably my last post.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

To the OP, I used Julie Knutson's book as a nice guide or reference in training my lab that points naturally. Its not just about encouraging the point, but also gives great detail on establishing the bond between you and the dog. This bond is the foundation of your entire relationship with the dog and will make training for any game (including upland field work) much simpler. Julie also breaks down much of the difficult training scenarios often encountered while training a lab that points.


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> it was my assumption, when I said "let her catch it" that the gentleman didn't want his retriever not to retrieve, as is the case with many pointers


At what age does imprinting take place in a pup ?

and So you see my line of thinking . Man gets wing out and does in fact establish pup to sight point.

But latter gets a bumper out or ball or thawed birds and throws them for pup to fetch. Hum , so now what are we doing with pup? Every thing we did to establish point may be destroyed in throwing ball for pup to fetch. Are we not in fact imprinting Catch Kill by throwing this ball ? When we should be encouraging Point ?

So every time we get string and wing out we allow pup to chase it and so pup now either gets bored all together and stops the chase and point . Or pup continues to chase and stops the point . Of course as pointed out there are exceptions to rules . But what rules ? Where are these rules I wonder. Regardless of this pup may continue to chase and that is not what we want in the end if we want a dog steady to wing. And bottom line a dog will almost never be successful at pointing a Ruffed Grouse by sight pointing any way. It is by scent and at a distance a dog needs to point a Grouse to be successful. 

In my thinking we do not want pup to chase we do not want pup bored and we do not want pup to catch the wing ever. And I have seen this take place with most people doing this silly game of wing on string. Which I did also growing up with pointing dogs. 

So why am I beating this to death ? 

But contrary to the thinking of some in the world of pointing dogs our GPS had to retrieve birds. And Hall of Fame handler Richard S Johns use to say to me .

What separates the Men from the Boys is to take a class bird dog and have it to point wild birds then get it steady to wing a KILL and then to retrieve to hand.

The pointer / setter and Brittany people were the boys and the GSP trainers were the men according to Richard. And mind you he also trained class pointers and setters besides beating those folks with his GSP at their trials in the 50's . 

Just saying .

The Whoa command is not and never was the requirement of ours to get a pointing dog to point or steady to wing and shot . And in fact we have made dogs steady to wing and kill never teaching a dog whoa just to prove that point.

Do you understand the term Country broke ? 

If you take a young dog into the woods and allow it to chase , bump , flush wild birds long enough and it may take 1000 Grouse contacts, that one day this Setter or pointer will or should establish a solid point sooner or later and when they do you need to shoot the bird over the point and will then imprint in the dogs mind what it has done is correct and then this dog should do this the rest of his whole life. And the dog has learned through this process it can not catch a bird. Never was taught to whoa and so therefor through trial and error has learned to handle Ruffed Grouse or what ever you are hunting. 

End


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I find it amusing when people have to announce they are taking their toys and leaving.


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## Canuck (Jun 9, 2011)

Especially over the whole "pointing Lab" discussion that has been pretty well chewed over the years.

Here's another bar discussion to consider...My dog can tell the difference between a hen and rooster pheasant...she ignores the hens that get up right under her nose in order to track down the rooster and get it in the air...I'm sure she knows the difference but the other pheasant hunters in the bar say hogwash...she's focusing on the runner that is leaving scent not the bird that is buried in cover....

Canuck


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

duk4me said:


> I find it amusing when people have to announce they are taking their toys and leaving.


Yeah, the old I am pulling up my big girl panties and going home is always an amusing announcement. If you are really that butt hurt why announce it


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

James Seibel said:


> At what age does imprinting take place in a pup ?
> 
> End


Hey Jim I just didn't want to repeat your whole post. I don't know what "country broke" is but I think you may have described it. 

I think you may very well be right in that unrestricted retrieving will break down the dog's tendency to hesitate before flushing/chasing/retrieving. 

I think there is an assumption in your post though, that pointing is a primary activity for the dog. I assume it's just a nicety and while NEWF might want to enhance/extend it, a non-slip retriever is still the goal. Although, that doesn't really effect my suggestion. I've seen a pointer or two whose reward was a retrieve. That's not where the idea comes from though. 

We should have a dog here that's actively being taught to "wait" before chasing/retrieving, every day of it's life. At the very core of it, what is a point? It's no different than sitting steady for a retrieve with the exception of the fact that the scent triggers the behavior and it happens to be in the standing position.

At one time I have heard that upland dogs were taught to "cover", meaning lay down when they encountered bird scent. This is what we teach many passive response detection dogs and in a lot of those cases (possibly the majority) the reward is a chase/retrieve of the dog's ball. In essence all we do with those is teach them that their ball smells like a bomb/drug and that they have to sit or lay down before it appears. We even teach what's called a "focus" dog to freeze in position and stare at the object. Sound like a point? Sure it does, because it is. 

You could teach a dog with no pointing tendency whatsoever to point and hold it for quite a long time using a retrieve as a reward. There are thousands of them from labs to Belgian Mals to GSDs. With the advent of "nose work", dogs of all breeds are being taught to search and more or less point in return for a food/retrieve rewards. 

All dog training is the same. Induce desirable behavior and reward/reinforce it enough times to make it a habit. Pointing has expanded beyond bird dogs in recent years into may other venues and is trained like any other behavior.

Every time the dog catches that wing the scent of it is imprinted in his mind paired with the retrieve/reward. Won't take long before you can hide the wing from view and teach them to point the scent. Pretty simple to do, actually. Teaching the dog to point and wait for release in order to chase / retrieve is a pretty standard skill taught to detection dogs. No reason why it can't work here.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

duk4me said:


> I find it amusing when people have to announce they are taking their toys and leaving.


Especially when they are insisting on being the only knowledgeable authority on pointing dog training....on a _RETRIEVER TRAINING _forum.  Seems kinda silly....if someone is a member of this group, they are interested in retriever training, and all the other stuff is just side discussions. Evidently retriever training isn't all that important to the person who has chosen to leave.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Especially when they are insisting on being the only knowledgeable authority on pointing dog training....on a _RETRIEVER TRAINING _forum.  Seems kinda silly....if someone is a member of this group, they are interested in retriever training, and all the other stuff is just side discussions. Evidently retriever training isn't all that important to the person who has chosen to leave.


also considering no one asked how to teach a pointing dog to point, they asked how to encourage a retriever LOL Mastiffs and Dachshunds I tell ya... they are both dogs but they aren't exactly alike.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I have retrievers come in here all the time that show a little pointing ability on upland game. I then ask the owner which direction they want to go...do they want the dog to point or to flush? and we go from there. 

Pointing instinct comes from having to stalk prey in order to catch it. We humans have just bred to refine and increase it to suit our needs. You can't teach a dog to point....you can only give it opportunities and then enhance the skill. You can, however, teach a dog to "stand game" and stop on scent rather than flush....while it looks similar to a point, it's not the same thing. Standing game is a taught skill rather than an instinctive skill and there's a pretty big difference, especially when it comes to style and intensity.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> I have retrievers come in here all the time that show a little pointing ability on upland game. I then ask the owner which direction they want to go...do they want the dog to point or to flush? and we go from there.
> 
> Pointing instinct comes from having to stalk prey in order to catch it. We humans have just bred to refine and increase it to suit our needs. You can't teach a dog to point....you can only give it opportunities and then enhance the skill. You can, however, teach a dog to "stand game" and stop on scent rather than flush....while it looks similar to a point, it's not the same thing. Standing game is a taught skill rather than an instinctive skill and there's a pretty big difference, especially when it comes to style and intensity.


Absolutely get the distinction Sharon.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Sharon Potter said:


> I have retrievers come in here all the time that show a little pointing ability on upland game. I then ask the owner which direction they want to go...do they want the dog to point or to flush? and we go from there.
> 
> Pointing instinct comes from having to stalk prey in order to catch it. We humans have just bred to refine and increase it to suit our needs. You can't teach a dog to point....you can only give it opportunities and then enhance the skill. You can, however, teach a dog to "stand game" and stop on scent rather than flush....while it looks similar to a point, it's not the same thing. Standing game is a taught skill rather than an instinctive skill and there's a pretty big difference, especially when it comes to style and intensity.


Absolutely;
I do have a question for you though? If the point is formed right and the dog, that you are working with has the drive to hunt. Would it take a pretty good eye to see the difference. That is what I have found with the few labs that I have work with. When I say Labs that I have worked with, I mean only 3 .

Keith 

I did suggest that they would be better flusher's than pointers, but they wanted a pointing dog.

Keith


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

BJGatley said:


> I just register with another forum and when approved, that is where I will place my hat. So this is probably my last post.



I am sure they will be happy to have you so you can set them straight!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

You all don't know nothing. Pointing dog in 7' corn is worthless and everyone knows that's where game birds hide. 

/Paul


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

truthseeker said:


> Absolutely;
> I do have a question for you though? If the point is formed right and the dog, that you are working with has the drive to hunt. Would it take a pretty good eye to see the difference. That is what I have found with the few labs that I have work with. When I say Labs that I have worked with, I mean only 3 .
> 
> Keith


Excellent question, Keith...and not an easy one to answer. I just finished working with a pointing Lab, and he absolutely does,without question, point, much to his owner's delight. The point was a natural one from the start. However, there isn't a lot of intensity or style in this particular dog, but he gets the job done and is perfect for his owner's needs. Now let's say that same dog had come to me without the pointing instinct being obvious, and I simply taught the dog to stop and stand on scent. Would there be a difference? Yes. Even though this dog isn't overly intense or stylish, he still shows the body language of a true point, from his head to his tail. It's a different look from a dog that is just standing still because it was taught to. 

Think of it this way (from a retriever standpoint): Two photos of two dogs, both sitting. One dog is watching a mark fall, and the other is sitting obediently, waiting for the next command. Could you tell the difference?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> .
> 
> Think of it this way (from a retriever standpoint): Two photos of two dogs, both sitting. One dog is watching a mark fall, and the other is sitting obediently, waiting for the next command. Could you tell the difference?


i don't know but one is getting dropped for style!

/Paul


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> i don't know but one is getting dropped for style!
> 
> /Paul


This is why, you don't see Lab's in pointer competition.

Keith


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Sharon Potter said:


> Excellent question, Keith...and not an easy one to answer. I just finished working with a pointing Lab, and he absolutely does,without question, point, much to his owner's delight. The point was a natural one from the start. However, there isn't a lot of intensity or style in this particular dog, but he gets the job done and is perfect for his owner's needs. Now let's say that same dog had come to me without the pointing instinct being obvious, and I simply taught the dog to stop and stand on scent. Would there be a difference? Yes. Even though this dog isn't overly intense or stylish, he still shows the body language of a true point, from his head to his tail. It's a different look from a dog that is just standing still because it was taught to.
> 
> Think of it this way (from a retriever standpoint): Two photos of two dogs, both sitting. One dog is watching a mark fall, and the other is sitting obediently, waiting for the next command. Could you tell the difference?


Thanks, I feel the same way.

Keith


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I saved this column a few yrs ago for one of my pointy dog friends:

http://www.angelfire.com/mn3/coverdog/counterpoint.html

He didn't appreciate it as much as me.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, I'd have to say the article is well written and builds carefully around a single, rather clever focal point (pun intended). Clever is not a synonym for accurate.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

KwickLabs said:


> Well, I'd have to say the article is well written and builds carefully around a single, rather clever focal point (pun intended). Clever is not a synonym for accurate.



Lol, it's all meant in good fun.

I've actually spent quite a bit of time considering the phenomenon of "pointing" although as a Springer field trailer, my perspective is "how to avoid it." Anything less than accelerating into the flush is considered a major fault in our game and yet even after decades of selective breeding away from the trait, it's one of the most common causes of otherwise excellent dogs becoming washouts. 

It's generally considered by the spaniel community to be a complex issue combining some degree of genetics and environmental factors. The way you plant birds and the process used to steady a spaniel can create a "soft flush" (ranging from slowing down as the dog nears the bird to a full on, staunch point in some dogs). Sometimes it's attributed to the temperament of the dog; one that "thinks about it too hard" as suggested in the article. 

I've noticed a tendency for a soft flush in dogs that are trained extensively in the relatively tighter control environment of non-slip retriever work and I suspect that this is at least partially the reason we hear of more & more "pointing Labs" these days.


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

Can't imagine what it must be like to swing a shotgun in 7ft. Of corn.. But I'm only 5'10"... I guess I'm lucky that the game birds I chase live in ditches and desert shrubs.. Either way I sure enjoy the way my dog hunts weather I know any thing or not. I sure know how to have fun hunting. Only advice I will give to the op is never let your kid shoot coots for your dog, mine now points every 5 ft on the way to the blind in the morning...lol


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

truthseeker said:


> This is why, you don't see Lab's in pointer competition.
> 
> Keith


Keith you will find that there is more reason than style on point why you do not see Labs in Pointer competition, it is called endurance. 
Labs are they not sprinters by nature ? 

When have you ever seen a lab that could keep with the pace of a pointer? There is also running style to consider. Pointer/ Setter men want to see high cracking tail also. In a way it is to bad many of them look down on dogs with doc tails. I have owned probably as many English pointers as GSP. I never ran my GSP in Grouse trials because I knew it was a waste of time. 

But one man , his name Tom Ginger hunted behind my Sam dog about 1/2 dozen times. He called me up and said to me when Sam died. That he had watched 17 Pa Grouse dogs become Pa State Grouse Champion and one Grand National Grouse Champion and that Sam did NOT take the back seat to any of those dogs. Tom never had to say anything to me about this. Besides I have seen 1000's of Pointing dogs , I knew what Sam was.

I ran Sam against many dogs in the woods and the true fact is none found more birds than he could find. The endurance factor comes in play also of day in day out hunting Hours a day that a Pointer can run. I can not believe any lab could keep this pace up. Sam died at 14 years old. 

Not to mention I was a Scout for 2 such dogs as Reg 2 Amateur Ch. Scandia Sam and Fld Champion Riches Cap &Ball just to name two horse back shooting dogs. I honestly can say I never saw any Retriever that would ever hold up to the pace these dogs burned ground up. 

We don't have to go to Grand Junction Tenn. To prove this either. 

If I was a betting man and some one bet me 1000 dollars their Lab could out bird my GSP Ginger , I would pick a hot day and go to a mountain with no water on or very little and I would have his 1000 dollars easy. For in 14 years of hunting Ginger in the Grouse woods I never saw her drink from a stream. She could keep going in cold or hot weather with no water . I have no clue how this was possible other than she had a gene the made this possible. 

Has any one ever seen a Lab point a Grouse at 50 or more yards? 

I have owned pointing Labs and I never saw where they matched most pointers I have seen. 

JIM


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Agree with James....I have yet to see a Lab that can keep up with a good pointer. Maybe hunting with one of the closer working, more methodical breeds like a Braque or Spinone, etc. The pointing Lab I mentioned earlier needed to learn to back another dog, so I told his owner we would train with a really nice GSP that was also here...a very stylish, classy dog that has run with the all age pointers out on the prairies and beat them to birds. The Lab owner considered his dog to be fast...and his jaw dropped when he watched the GSP cover a six acre field in about fifteen seconds. She can do that for a few hours, too, and finish as strong as she started. That doesn't mean Labs are bad at it...it's just a difference in body style and structure and metabolism.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Agree with James....I have yet to see a Lab that can keep up with a good pointer. Maybe hunting with one of the closer working, more methodical breeds like a Braque or Spinone, etc. The pointing Lab I mentioned earlier needed to learn to back another dog, so I told his owner we would train with a really nice GSP that was also here...a very stylish, classy dog that has run with the all age pointers out on the prairies and beat them to birds. The Lab owner considered his dog to be fast...and his jaw dropped when he watched the GSP cover a six acre field in about fifteen seconds. She can do that for a few hours, too, and finish as strong as she started. * That doesn't mean Labs are bad at it...it's just a difference in body style and structure and metabolism.*


*
*
Sharon,

Labs that point aren't "Pointers" any more than pointers that retrieve are "Retrievers". You use the ability of the pointer to cover ground to illustrate that point. Might I add that a pointer retrieving waterfowl from rough icy cold water might also help to distinguish the difference.

Swack


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I am switching forums because I am back into the pointer business.
I have a very nice long legged GSP bitch that comes from good stock….“Hall of Fame” from her dad’s side. 
I need to know more of the GSP. I will not get that from this site.
My training principles remain the same as I was taught from a young age.
I did noticed how intense my girl gives when I am doing something and she stands with a rigid erect sit and with a intense look at me. I have not encounter that before with my Labs or Brittanies. Just saying....


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Good comparison, Swack. I can think of a few GWPs/Drahthaars that will do a decent job of it, but that doesn't make them a Chesapeake. 

My old JRT, Russell, would point as well, although he wasn't steady when you walked in to flush. . We were even braced with a setter in a fun trial while training with friends once, several years ago in Kansas. We had an odd number of dogs and needed one to fill the last brace, so I volunteered to run Russell. Everybody thought it would be a fun joke. It was a 30 minute brace, 2 guns with six shells each, 6 quail. The brace with the most birds in the bag and fewest shells used won. Russell found four of the six birds and thanks to my partner's good shooting (and not mine!) we won.  Maybe I'm missing a marketing thing there!


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

James Seibel said:


> Keith you will find that there is more reason than style on point why you do not see Labs in Pointer competition, it is called endurance.
> Labs are they not sprinters by nature ?
> 
> When have you ever seen a lab that could keep with the pace of a pointer? There is also running style to consider. Pointer/ Setter men want to see high cracking tail also. In a way it is to bad many of them look down on dogs with doc tails. I have owned probably as many English pointers as GSP. I never ran my GSP in Grouse trials because I knew it was a waste of time.
> ...


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Actually, the pointing Lab vs. pointing breeds issue has mellowed considerably over the last several years. As pointing Labs gained more notoriety, the "shoot to retrieve" timed events gained popularity. Some would say these events do not necessarily demonstrate or require the top of the line performances required in field trials. There are a few issues that tend to level the playing field. 

First of all, the competition fields were relatively small giving the pointing Lab a break. Secondly, working a field where bird are evenly spaced requires a bit more control over the dog. Another given was very few competitive field trial dogs would think of competing in such an format. Lastly, a significant quantity of points were awarded for successful retrieves. 

Now if one were to analyze those rules, every single one provides an advantage to the pointing Lab. In a way, the playing field was leveled. The end result was many pointing Labs seemed to do quite well competing against pointers. Of course, the Lab competitors could not help to compare their Labs to the pointers. The pure pointing "crowd" became greatly irritated at the continual barrage of "my Lab is as good as any pointer." 

I lived through this and admit to smiling a big grin when Taffey would beat a bunch of pointers at their own game. We finished 3rd in one of our first outings. The next week the members of that organization were demanding that pointing Labs should be banned from the competition.

The two competitors that finished ahead of us were not upset. In fact, they got lots of "grins" ribbing their friends about loosing to a pointing Lab. The fact is we finished with enough points only because of a retrieve. 

She pointed a chukar in high cover. When I shot it, she did not see where it fell (fifty yards away in tall cover). The judge said, "We will walk over there with your dog and pick up that bird and you will NOT receive any retrieving points because you moved." I replied, "No. I'm not moving." Taffey "Sit." "Back." Tweet "Over." "Here." and all this was done very quickly in a timed event. 

The judge said, "You get the retrieving points. I've never seen that done before."

I've watched pointers work a forty acre field like they were on a zip line. My Lab could never move that fast. We did, however, manage to hunt the uplands for six hours a day. For an older guy like me that was pretty much all I could deal with. 

Comparing is a mistake if you are looking for the same, exact performance. The differences are significantly important......for some. Northern Illinois is not exactly the mecca for upland hunting.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

BJGatley said:


> I am switching forums because I am back into the pointer business.
> I have a very nice long legged GSP bitch that comes from good stock….“Hall of Fame” from her dad’s side.
> I need to know more of the GSP. I will not get that from this site.
> My training principles remain the same as I was taught from a young age.
> I did noticed how intense my girl gives when I am doing something and she stands with a rigid erect sit and with a intense look at me. I have not encounter that before with my Labs or Brittanies. Just saying....


Wait I am confused. You made a huge announcement that you quit RTF. Pulled up your panties and took your infinite wisdom and final opinion with you and yet here you are posting on RTF still.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

James Seibel said:


> Keith you will find that there is more reason than style on point why you do not see Labs in Pointer competition, it is called endurance.
> Labs are they not sprinters by nature ?
> 
> When have you ever seen a lab that could keep with the pace of a pointer? There is also running style to consider. Pointer/ Setter men want to see high cracking tail also. In a way it is to bad many of them look down on dogs with doc tails. I have owned probably as many English pointers as GSP. I never ran my GSP in Grouse trials because I knew it was a waste of time.
> ...


You apparently don't hunt grouse in the coast range in Oregon. 

/Paul


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> I just register with another forum and when approved, that is where I will place my hat. So this is probably my last post.


Lets just kiss and say goodbye. lol Or better yet "Break up to make up that's all we do First you love me then you hate me that's a game for you"


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

badbullgator said:


> Wait I am confused. You made a huge announcement that you quit RTF. Pulled up your panties and took your infinite wisdom and final opinion with you and yet here you are posting on RTF still.





duk4me said:


> Lets just kiss and say goodbye. lol Or better yet "Break up to make up that's all we do First you love me then you hate me that's a game for you"


I have been approved...Got the e-mail today.
Now you two can sleep tonight knowing that I won't be here anymore. LOL... RTF is well...a breed of its own good and bad.


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

Sorry but can't help myself..." has anyone ever seen a lab point a grouse from 50 yds. or more ? "
Yes quite a bit over the last ten years or so, and 90yds a few times also. Great Lakes area highly pressured ruffed grouse to boot.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> I have been approved...Got the e-mail today.
> Now you two can sleep tonight knowing that I won't be here anymore. LOL... RTF is well...a breed of its own good and bad.


Aw you'll be back in a week or two.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Aw you'll be back in a week or two.


A week or two? He will be back this weekend to tell us how much better the other forum is and how the understand his infinite and absolute knowledge.


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## ShadowMagic (Sep 16, 2014)

Coming to the discussion late - you are gonna run into problems - because retrieving for lack of a better word comes off prey drive - pointing comes of stalking - dogs that have lots of prey drive (of any breed) have to be worked differently than those that have a lot of stalking/staunchness or pointing instinct. I had two pointing lab sisters in recently (littermates) one showed excellent pointing instinct (but not like a pointer or setter) and we were able to get her to point and stay steady to wing break at the shot (would have pulled my hair out - what's left of it trying to get her broke) but she had to also retrieve - she had excellent retrieving instincts when we started but the training to get her pointing better was detrimental to that - so we FF'd her - her sister was a different story no pointing instinct to speak of - could I have taught her to stand on scent (sure) but what would be the point we told her owner and what we did was get the girls to honor each other - in other words Blondie would point and we brought babe up and conditioned her to sit when her sister was pointing and vice versa Blondie liked retrieving enough that we taught her to honor her sister when doing water work and in the end everyone was happy so to speak. This long dissertation is boiled down in a nut shell do whatever trips your trigger. But, the most reliable method I used to get young dogs (pointing breeds) to get to point birds better or best - is to let them knock and chase hundreds of wild birds in South Dakota until they were so sick of it they pointed in many cases 4-5 month old dogs spending the summer doing this came back as 8 month olds pointing and backing until I got in there and flushed and fired a blank.


Before anyone bites my head off about - I train pointing breeds, but coming off a horse in the middle of nowhere SD and breaking my neck and laying out on the prairie by myself all day and all night before I summoned the strength to crawl/walk 7 miles to get help - has caused me to start training retrievers more. I have in the past owned or trained or handled NSTRA CH, AKC Junior Hunter (retriever) AKC JH, SH, MH (pointing breeds) NAVHDA NA Prize 1,2,3 dogs and UT Prize II dogs, AKC FC (pointing breeds) and American Field walking shooting dog champions


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> also considering no one asked how to teach a pointing dog to point, they asked how to encourage a retriever LOL Mastiffs and Dachshunds I tell ya... they are both dogs but they aren't exactly alike.


Of course this is a Retriever site and so why even make a big deal of this?Or maybe one should ask this question on a pointing dog site ? But it is a Very Good Question that can be answered by many people in different ways I think . I have already gave ways on this thread how to get a dog to point. But would like to tell one more story if I may. 

I will continue to agree with Sharon and others that wing on String is a parlor trick best not done with a non pointing or pointing dogs. I have my reasons to this as you have read. Not saying I am right . 

Truthseeker and other here are better dog trainers than me cause I can NOT teach a pit bull or any other dog to point ! And Wallmart parking lot would be last place I would attempt that task. 

I can very easy tell the story of at least 5 dogs that showed lack off or no point and how I got them to point . All 5 done in 5 different ways sorta. Like the pointer I took out and let it chase butterflies for weeks then got it to point birds after it got sick of chasing them. 

But with that said I will tell you of one dog from the 80's time frame. Her name was Abby a BLF . She was force fetched went through the old D.L.W. program I used. She was duck hunted and I shot a fair number of ducks for her but she showed a lack of drive to catch kill or chase down cripples. 

At the time i was working large string of Pointing dogs. I had 3 Quail recall pens in 3 different sections of woods. I would use Abby to push the birds when they were ready for that . I would use her to push them a short distance then further out. Her JOB was to get these birds wild or as wild as I could so when I worked Pointing dogs they acted like wild birds. Abby was 100% broke to flush with a single blast of whistle so as to sit and not chase and I did NOT shoot any birds for her over any flush , no not ever ! . I could stop her so she would not push the birds to far at first. Then in time the dog was cut lose on them to catch kill or get them really jumpy. Which Abby did very well, just as good as some Springers I worked. 

One pen I used had birds raised under a Bantam Chicken . These were the wildest quail I have ever used, by the way.

Abby's job also was to walk at heel with me and when I got to some dogs under the steady system I used , she was sent in to flush. I would get to the Pointer and place my hands on their collar . I would send Abby into flush and I could steady these dogs with NO rope NO collar . It took time . 

What happen with Abby ? One day Abby started to point and never stopped. I gave her to a good friend when she was 6 years old and he hunted her on shooting preserves for pheasants. The man shot hundreds of pheasants over her points. Abby was NOT a very good waterfowl dog and so the reason I gave her to the man. And to be honest with you all , I do not and never did want to own a pointing lab. Consider the class pointing dogs I have owned is one small reason of why I do not want a pointing lab. 

This is just one of my personal labs I got to point. I think the key was lots and lots of birds flushed and I did not shoot them and the fact those labs were steady to the flush. Then when they point I think one should shoot birds for them. 

I think Abby would have pointed sooner if I was not shooting ducks for her. Other words what I am saying is I NEVER throw bumpers , birds , balls or any other object for young Pointers so as to imprint catch kill at a young age ! And I do NOT use string on a wing to promote sight pointing ! 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

James Seibel said:


> Of course this is a Retriever site and so why even make a big deal of this?Or maybe one should ask this question on a pointing dog site ? But it is a Very Good Question that can be answered by many people in different ways I think . I have already gave ways on this thread how to get a dog to point. But would like to tell one more story if I may.
> 
> I will continue to agree with Sharon and others that wing on String is a parlor trick best not done with a non pointing or pointing dogs. I have my reasons to this as you have read. Not saying I am right .
> 
> ...


Have you tried to teach a pit to point? I bet you could do it. 

I remember back to the late 90's and early 2000's when some RTF folks used to like to give Kwiklabs and a few others a hard time about "standing game". One of the old jokes was "They're not standing game, they're afraid to flush".

Pits can retrieve. I've seen it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Last weekend I took a client Pheasant hunting and when we wrapped up and hit the parking lot there was a couple of guys and a gal standing there with a pit bull. They had hunted him that morning. I asked how it went as my lab humped his Pit bull and they laughed and said he didn't have a clue what a bird was but just running around in the field he bumped two birds for them. He didn't retrieve them but they didn't care. They also laughed that they had the whole field to themselves because when the other hunters saw the Pit they left. Maybe Chris is on to something....

/Paul


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Last weekend I took a client Pheasant hunting and when we wrapped up and hit the parking lot there was a couple of guys and a gal standing there with a pit bull. They had hunted him that morning. I asked how it went as my lab humped his Pit bull and they laughed and said he didn't have a clue what a bird was but just running around in the field he bumped two birds for them. He didn't retrieve them but they didn't care. They also laughed that they had the whole field to themselves because when the other hunters saw the Pit they left. Maybe Chris is on to something....
> 
> /Paul


I may have to borrow one from a neighbor and try that at EE Wilson this weekend!! Maybe just tie him up by the walk in gate?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

James Seibel said:


> I will continue to agree with Sharon and others that wing on String is a parlor trick best not done with a non pointing or pointing dogs. I have my reasons to this as you have read. Not saying I am right .
> 
> Truthseeker and other here are better dog trainers than me cause I can NOT teach a pit bull or any other dog to point ! And Wallmart parking lot would be last place I would attempt that task.


I'm sure you're right about how pointers are trained Jim. I don't know. All I was saying was... it's possible to teach a dog that when he finds a particular odor he should exhibit a particular behavior (which is usually stop and freeze). 

No one in pointer-dom would be doing anything remotely like we did imprinting a bomb (or drug or cadaver or whatever) dog. That doesn't mean it can't be done or the methods used to encourage a dog with a pointing tendency to strengthen that skill. 

I do a lot of thing in unconventional ways, even basic, treat based obedience. What I do works for most dog, and I think it works better than most common programs (which is why I developed it). BUT... and this is the proverbial but... I have a lot of those dogs to experiment around with and learn from. 

I don't have a lot of pointers but I have seen a few hundred detection dogs trained to stop and stare... not to point, but to "stand game" as Sharon put it. I recognize the difference and that's cool. 

Learned a lot reading your stuff. Thanks for posting it.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Have you tried to teach a pit to point? I bet you could do it.
> 
> I remember back to the late 90's and early 2000's when some RTF folks used to like to give Kwiklabs and a few others a hard time about "standing game". One of the old jokes was "They're not standing game, they're afraid to flush".
> 
> Pits can retrieve. I've seen it.



Chris,

Are you sure that pit bull isn't crossed with a silver Lab!?!

Swack


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

BJGatley said:


> I have been approved...Got the e-mail today.
> Now you two can sleep tonight knowing that I won't be here anymore. LOL... RTF is well...a breed of its own good and bad.



To Quote Yosemite Sam . . . *"SHUT UP SHUTTING UP!!!"

*Swack


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> I just register with another forum and when approved, that is where I will place my hat. So this is probably my last post.


 Could you get your dog a larger crate. One it can stand in.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

KwickLabs said:


> Actually, the pointing Lab vs. pointing breeds issue has mellowed considerably over the last several years. As pointing Labs gained more notoriety, the "shoot to retrieve" timed events gained popularity. Some would say these events do not necessarily demonstrate or require the top of the line performances required in field trials. There are a few issues that tend to level the playing field.
> 
> First of all, the competition fields were relatively small giving the pointing Lab a break. Secondly, working a field where bird are evenly spaced requires a bit more control over the dog. Another given was very few competitive field trial dogs would think of competing in such an format. Lastly, a significant quantity of points were awarded for successful retrieves.
> 
> ...


Pretty much the same thing happened to me and my BLM (see my sig line). The one and only Gun Dog Challenge we entered we placed third going up against GSP's, English Pointers, and other Pointing Labs. The last bird was hard to get as my fat arse was quickly walking/chasing it around a tree while my dog stayed steady after pointing the bird under the tree. I finally got it up and shot it, but I was I was too far in front of JD that he didn't see the fall. Since this was a timed event, I called him to heel and then sent him on a blind retireve. He came back with the bird giving us 3rd place. Man I miss him terribly sometimes. To each his own I figure.


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