# Shoreline Blinds



## Griddoc (Apr 25, 2011)

My last 3 senior hunt tests. Shoreline blinds??? What's the deal? No wonder so few people run seniors and go straight to masters. Seniors is like masters minus 1 bird and no blinds under the arch.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Fun, wern't they!



made me pucker too!


----------



## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Griddoc said:


> My last 3 senior hunt tests. Shoreline blinds??? What's the deal? No wonder so few people run seniors and go straight to masters. Seniors is like masters minus 1 bird and no blinds under the arch.


That is the case more often than not in my area.


----------



## fishin444 (Apr 23, 2012)

I've had my fair share of those to. Very easy for a dog and handler to get into trouble. Funny how they fit those little pitfalls in a simple looking blind. I did a lot of swim by and casting drills this year.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If ya think about it though, depending on the area that the judges were given, like a corner of a LARGE pond, and if the two marks were thrown so as to use up that corner, where else could you put the water blind ?


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Such AS!!!!


----------



## fishin444 (Apr 23, 2012)

True Senior doesn't always get the best spots to run on. Can't argue with that. At Fallon NV, and Marin CA. The senior at Fallon was on a lake and Marin was on a 3000 acre pond. 3 of the 4 blinds were down the shore.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> Such AS!!!!


So where is the blind? Me, I like shore blinds. It's those fast running water things that bug me!


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

2tall said:


> So where is the blind? Me, I like shore blinds. It's those fast running water things that bug me!



That was my point Miss Carol! Where would YOU put the blind,so as it to be a true water blind?

Should be outside the marks for Senior, not under an arc of a fall......

Looks to me, the Judges only have 1 choice,, down one of the shore lines....

Where would YOU put the blind?

Gooser


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Oh, I see. This is hypothetical, not the exact set up being discussed. Ok, well how 'bout this. Put one gun station where Mark 2 is. Throw a mom 'n pop with #1 landing in the spot where #2 is above. Let #2 be thrown right to left out into the open water. Then run blind to the right of marks. OR. . . . do the old thing of running the blind first between the two marks, separated a little more than the original drawing? Personally, I still think shoreline blind is ok. I've had to run a couple of those. We just screw up the straight forward land blinds! I'll find out next week if we got that fixed


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

2tall said:


> So where is the blind? Me, I like shore blinds. It's those fast running water things that bug me!


How about moving the line to the left. Cut the corner, go over the point and across the water between the 2 marks.

Would that suffice for a Senior Hunt Test WB?


----------



## Scott R. (Mar 13, 2012)

To me the shoreline blind is almost easier than some of the senior land blinds I've seen. The concept and pitfalls are obvious. Like Carol said, the "straight forward" blind is often tougher than it looks. Senior can be a tough egg to crack and IMHO it seems many run it before they are really ready...dog and/or handler. Been there done that.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Shoreline blinds are like channel blinds ... after the first couple whistles, the dog SHOULD know where he's supposed to go. If not, you just need to run more of them.

JS


----------



## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Or run a water blind with the land series and a land blind with the water series, solves some problems with location of water blinds. Somewhere in the rule book it tells judges to be inventive....


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Wade said:


> How about moving the line to the left. Cut the corner, go over the point and across the water between the 2 marks.
> 
> Would that suffice for a Senior Hunt Test WB?


No blinds between marks in Senior. they must be outside of marks.


----------



## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

Run the water blind first, then move the line and run the marks.

Dawn


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Well, if a blind tight to the shore is too much just put a duck on a floating rat trap out in the middle of the pond within the distance limits.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

We got our arse handed to us today on one of them straight forward down the shore blinds..
It was UGLY UGLY!!


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Flincy's a "dirty" girl!


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> We got our arse handed to us today on one of them straight forward down the shore blinds..
> It was UGLY UGLY!!


.
Training on down the shore blinds work on casting dog "into" the shore vs out to sea. If not doing so already you can teach dog a "permission cast" telling him it's "OK" to get dry. For all other casts, even if it sends dog very close to shore, dog is to understand to stay "wet". For the "permission cast" some voice the word Back in a different voice/inflection than used when saying Back for other things. Start with a quiet drawn out voice saying back as you cast but sounding like a sheep bleeting. "Baaaaaaaack". If you want you can train dog to run water blinds this way or something similar. make sure dog understands the new rules before you beat them up.


----------



## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Griddoc said:


> My last 3 senior hunt tests. Shoreline blinds??? What's the deal? No wonder so few people run seniors and go straight to masters. Seniors is like masters minus 1 bird and no blinds under the arch.


To quote my late good friend Carl Knock - "Train, don't complain."


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Carol Cassity's drill book "Building a Retriever" has an excellent drill on working down the shore blinds. You've got bumpers at strategic places along the shore. When the dog heads that way, whistle and cast. You get a correction in for a cast refusal, instead of a correction for going to shore. She could explain it better.....I'm no expert. But it works well.

To the original poster....seniors is tough. It's my opinion, and mine only, that seniors should show marking, memory and handling - basic concepts on the latter. Does he respond, does he willingly take your casts, teamwork-not a hack job to the bird? I think all those advanced things should be left for master. I am of fan of train don't complain too. But there is a reason for the intermediate level. With all that being said, seniors does tend to get the bottom of the barrel ground wise. We've discussed the running the blind between the marks thing before. You do what you have to do. For a senior dog, all that scent, even though he hasn't seen the birds going down for the marks, is tough.

I prefer to go thorugh the series, JH, SH, MH. I can't seem to replicate the excitement in training, doesn't seem that anyone else can either. I get the oportunity to get the dog acclimated to the situation. Maybe someday I won't want to but for now, it's fun. I enjoy going through the ranks...it's fun. Each time I run I find other things that I need to train. I'll never have it all. Right now on my list, for senior, is running a long land blind, into dark trees, through water and further into the dark trees. I had a senior blind with my first dog that was all the way through trees. I had NEVER done that before. Dog ping ponged all the way to the blind but we got there. I'm not a hunter so I don't know if either of those blinds are realistic, but it's part of the game. 

My dogs humble me and make me laugh daily! I love it!


----------



## Griddoc (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for all the posts. I originally anticipated senior hunt tests to measure a dogs steadiness and marking skills. I am slowly learning that it's not the case. I am busting out to get that shoreline down. I guess if you need it to pass a seniors, it will create an easier transition to masters.


----------



## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> We got our arse handed to us today on one of them straight forward down the shore blinds..
> It was UGLY UGLY!!


Was this at
a test or a training day?


----------



## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Someone told me a while back JR is about the dog, SR is about the handler and MH is about the team. Kinda makes sense.

No doubt SR is the biggest step with all the added requirements.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

JDogger said:


> Was this at
> a test or a training day?



Training!!!! Really long,, with a bunch of stuff before you swam the shoreline.


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Griddoc said:


> My last 3 senior hunt tests. Shoreline blinds??? What's the deal? No wonder so few people run seniors and go straight to masters. Seniors is like masters minus 1 bird and no blinds under the arch.


You make it sound like adding a third bird and going under the arc on blinds is no big deal.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Gooser, I guess this is why I am ok with those shoreline blinds. My teacher in SC really, really worked us on those with the very difficult entries. His point was that was where all the effort was. Once the dog got in, it recognized the shoreline and where to stay relative to it. But my gosh, those first 30 - 50 yards could be through anything! And Buzz, anyone that believes the step to master is no big deal will be in for a shock! My plan is to train for qual and run what I can after Senior!


----------



## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

jacduck said:


> Or run a water blind with the land series and a land blind with the water series, solves some problems with location of water blinds. Somewhere in the rule book it tells judges to be inventive....


Saw this done recently. I thought it was a great idea for 2 reasons: 
1. allowed more flexibility with the whole "blind outside the mark rule"
2. it was hot & the dogs got wet in both series (water blind in first & water marks in second).


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I train SH dogs just like MH dogs. The blinds can be inside,down the shore, over land back to water, whatever. So I don't care where they put them. In training I like to put the blinds where we will get the best training bang for the buck. Ain't that right Carol lol. We have been cutting corners of thick wheat fields for the past week or two and water blinds down the shore past points.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

labman63 said:


> I train SH dogs just like MH dogs. The blinds can be inside,down the shore, over land back to water, whatever. So I don't care where they put them. In training I like to put the blinds where we will get the best training bang for the buck. Ain't that right Carol lol. We have been cutting corners of thick wheat fields for the past week or two and water blinds down the shore past points.


Absolutely! It seems like if you are training for exactly what is "in the book" you are not only short changing your dog and your partners' training time, but your future success as well. I have come home empty handed because of a blind or mark that exceeded our training level. I have NEVER blamed the judges for it, just went home and went to work. That's what it takes to make progress!


----------



## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

Breck said:


> Well, if a blind tight to the shore is too much just put a duck on a floating rat trap out in the middle of the pond within the distance limits.


x2. Sometimes swimming a dog into big open water is a challenge too.


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> That was my point Miss Carol! Where would YOU put the blind,so as it to be a true water blind?
> 
> Should be outside the marks for Senior, not under an arc of a fall......
> 
> ...


Right down the middle, that will test em.


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> That was my point Miss Carol! Where would YOU put the blind,so as it to be a true water blind?
> 
> Should be outside the marks for Senior, not under an arc of a fall......
> 
> ...



If it were me and according to your diagram you have a ton of room down the middle. A senior dog shouldn't have any problem with that. Anyplace else you place it is going to be harder technically.


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

MostlyGold's solution was the best one. 

I try very hard to find something other than a true shoreline blind when judging a Hunt Test. I dislike one-sided tests.-Paul


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Griddoc said:


> Thanks for all the posts. I originally anticipated senior hunt tests to measure a dogs steadiness and marking skills. I am slowly learning that it's not the case. I am busting out to get that shoreline down. I guess if you need it to pass a seniors, it will create an easier transition to masters.


 The AKC doesn't make running Senior "worth it". 
You have to pass five tests, running at a level that would often get you through a Master test, in order to get one pass closer to a Master title.

Only one measly stinkin' pass closer!

If you want a transitional step that actually gets you something worth getting, run HRC Seasoned. 
Four Seasoned passes gets you three Finished passes knocked off of your journey to an HRCH.

And Seasoned is a whole lot less demanding than your average Senior test.


----------



## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Bruce MacPherson said:


> If it were me and according to your diagram you have a ton of room down the middle. A senior dog shouldn't have any problem with that. Anyplace else you place it is going to be harder technically.


And run it before the marks, I presume?
Not sure it's worth all the grief you'll receive from folks screaming foul on the old "between the marks" rule. (After all, even OJ Simpson was acquitted.)


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Breck said:


> .
> Training on down the shore blinds work on casting dog "into" the shore vs out to sea. If not doing so already you can teach dog a "permission cast" telling him it's "OK" to get dry. For all other casts, even if it sends dog very close to shore, dog is to understand to stay "wet". For the "permission cast" some voice the word Back in a different voice/inflection than used when saying Back for other things. Start with a quiet drawn out voice saying back as you cast but sounding like a sheep bleeting. "Baaaaaaaack". If you want you can train dog to run water blinds this way or something similar. make sure dog understands the new rules before you beat them up.


Usually I wouldn't run out and practice what is on RTF, but this made sense so I tried this today with success. Did two nice down the shore blinds. Thanks Breck very useful!


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> That was my point Miss Carol! Where would YOU put the blind,so as it to be a true water blind?
> 
> Should be outside the marks for Senior, not under an arc of a fall......
> 
> ...


Use a rat trap and send pup out to sea.


----------



## QuillToller (Jul 16, 2010)

Well in Seasoned they often move to a different line for the blind which opens up more opportunities for a simple blind. Though once in Seasoned I had a tough long shoreline blind with lots of scent on the shore from the blind planter kid sitting there mid way in the weeds with all the ducks, and then dragging one through the weeds to plant the blind each time!


----------



## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

QuillToller said:


> Well in Seasoned they often move to a different line for the blind which opens up more opportunities for a simple blind. Though once in Seasoned I had a tough long shoreline blind with lots of scent on the shore from the blind planter kid sitting there mid way in the weeds with all the ducks, and then dragging one through the weeds to plant the blind each time!


Moving the line for the blind can make a lot of sense.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Rat trap is fine......
Moving the line and run blind separate a good idea......


Remember its Sunday,,,,,, Our group ran the land series first inthe morning...

there were a LOT of dogs.

Call backs were generous..

We have to drive to get to the water grounds,and re set up..

With the rat trap,, Blind cant be hot,, so,, you have to have a person in a boat to row out to place the rat trap blind for each dog... Takes Time?

Move the line and run blind separate,, again a separate test takes time.

Just because you personally have the belief that a SENIOR dog SHOULD be able to run a blind between the marks,,doesnt ,,,at least to me,,, make sense that you require it in a AKC SENIOR test.. Just because you CAN do something doesnt mean you should...

The argument of running that centered blind FIRST befor the marks are thrown,, so its NOT between the marks, cause no marks have been thrown,, I believe is Lame idea for a SENIOR level dog (JMHO) there are still bird stations,, and wind could shift so as to make the suction really strong.. While I think many dogs can handle that,, I dont believe it goes with AKC progression of levels of the dogs,(Again, JMHO) Remember it states in the rules,, the tests shoudlnt be Overly complicated.. My opinion,, this idea is overly complicated for a Senior dog..

All this is JMO,, and I am NOT a Judge,,just a whiny worry wart handler!

Gooser


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Yeah Gooser! Go on and tell 'em how you feel about those walk ups too! I have some coming up this weekend and I think I'd prefer a hemorrhoid operation!


----------



## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

MooseGooser said:


> Such AS!!!!


I ran one like that last year only the line was at an angle up a hill, the line to the blind was parallel to the land all the way to the end across from the line, the go bird was the left bird and the memory was deep in the pocket so your dog had to go through the fall of the go bird to get the memory that was along the bank in cover. Few dog did the memory without a handle and I think only one dog did it clean. Most dogs tried to get up on the land for the blind since it was pretty much across from them. That alone wiped out all but I think 15 or 20% of the dogs. I think they only lost 2 dogs in the first series and that was not easy. It seams the tests you remember are the difficult ones.


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

As in all things subjective Gooser it is just my opinion. However I have no problem testing my dog with a concept harder than some might think fair for the stake. I don't know a lot of folks running senior level that aren't running much more difficult concepts in practice. Anyway my 2 cents.


----------



## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

Im going to bring this back up because this is Traps weakness.
How do I get him to understand he must stay in the water in still water, but it's okay to haul butt down the shoreline to run ahead of a bird floating down a swift current then dive in and intercept it? In the hard current, he cannot swim against it, so he turns, hits the bank, and runs back up the shoreline.
I am pulling what little hair I have left out trying to understand in my mind, how to get him to know when it's okay to do that but not in still water, like at a test on a down the shoreline blind or a mark out near the shore.

If I make/train him to always go straight from me to where pointed, then hunting season comes and he runs for the quickest way to an escaping bird, then I feel all the work was for nothing because he unlearned/relearned.
Im lost, and relying don't know what to do.
Any suggestions?

Or will he figure it out on his own to differentiate?


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mark Teahan said:


> Im going to bring this back up because this is Traps weakness.
> How do I get him to understand he must stay in the water in still water, but it's okay to haul butt down the shoreline to run ahead of a bird floating down a swift current then dive in and intercept it? In the hard current, he cannot swim against it, so he turns, hits the bank, and runs back up the shoreline.
> I am pulling what little hair I have left out trying to understand in my mind, how to get him to know when it's okay to do that but not in still water, like at a test on a down the shoreline blind or a mark out near the shore.
> 
> ...


Assuming you have trained to high standards, consistently hold those standards in training and weekend trials, the dogs do learn to differentiate. There is such a huge difference in atmosphere between actual hunting and the weekend trials, the dog learn when it's ok to relax a bit. I start hunting season off with the collar on to keep the steadiness and casting standards in place, but I let them cheat a bank when the water is turning to ice. After years of doing this I've noticed that it doesn't seem to erode their training and trialing standards.


----------



## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

Cool.
Never had such a dog and once we get it down I didn't know if he could really understand and know, when to do what where.

Thanks...
We'll get it now.


----------



## 2dc (Nov 7, 2011)

I've ran a few down the shore blinds in seniors. They are easy to teach. Once the dog understands these blinds channel blinds are easy to teach.


----------



## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

Been working on cheating for 2 evenings now, and he's getting it.
Tomorrow is another day.
Did great this evening. Didn't even think of moving over any towards the shoreline. Straight out and back.


----------



## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

This is a great thread. Out of 8 senior tests we ran this year, only 2 weren't down the shore blinds. Hardest one was 137 yards, down the shore, with a row of trees on the right about 2' into the water. The middle tree was scented so the majority of the dogs veered right to the scent. The dogs had to run about 6' to the right from the right mark holding blind, so the suction was huge on both sides. First 8 dogs went out. Some of the pro's scratched in protest. We chose to run the test, and passed. The judges heard some pretty salty language that day, but left the test as it was. 6 out of 34 dogs passed. It was crazy.

We ran another test that the water blind was land, water, land, water, land, both over a point of land to take the direct line to the blind. First 8 dogs went out. The judges stopped the test, re-configured it, and called the first 8 dogs back for a re-run. Left the blind as it was, just changed the line to the blind, so going over the points of land weren't mandatory, and didn't request we challenge the line. Passed 8 dogs out of 27. This was after a land series that was an in-line double, that was the most in-line i have ever seen, with the memory bird thrown 3 yards infront of the dog, on the walkup, and the go bird was the live flyer, roughly 80 yards out directly inline with the memory bird. Crazy stuff.

The best advise i received this year was to train 1 level up from the level we are running.... That was the only thing that pulled us through.


----------



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm new to the game and have only run 5 senior tests so far, but I'm pretty sure a couple of the situations you described (assuming you are accurate) are well outside of the Senior AKC rules.


----------



## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

Yes they were "Illegal" tests. distance on blinds, degree of separation etc, stopping the test after 8 dogs, instead of 5 as the rules state. Some complained, and pulled their dogs, but, the judges relied on "Up to Judges discretion," type interpretation and the tests stood. In a couple of instances, the Powers-that-Be were called, but relied on the Judges say is final interpretation, and let the tests stand as configured. Go figure. Like some, i just try to run the test that is presented, we pass some, we fail some. Crazy!


----------



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Well congrats on the passes you earned. It would seem as though that should have been a master ribbon handed out at the end of the day for you instead of a senior ribbon.


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Dazed said "stopping the test after 8 dogs, instead of 5 as the rules state" 

I am unfamiliar with this rule; could you refer me to page and paragraph in the Regulations, please? Thanks in advance! -Paul


----------



## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

Standing in holding blind, waiting to be called to the line, the judges stopped the test. The committee and event secretary were summoned. The "5-dog rule" was discussed and agreed upon, but the committee referred the final decision back to the judges. Members of the Gallery which included 2 master national judges challenged the decision based on the "5 dog rule", and legitimacy of the test, citing information they had received at the Judges Seminar they attended. The committee deferred back to the judges as final and official ruling and the test was re-configured and re-started. I was then sent back to my original order, and the first 8 dogs were allowed to re-run the test. Luckily, they got a hold of all the handlers. It made for an interesting test.

For the record, i did not question the judges, or their decision, i just came back to the line at the appropriate time and ran the test. I trust that those who provided input were more knowledgeable than I about such matters. At the end of the day, I found the judges to be consistent in their judging, and that was fine with me.


----------



## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

Peter Balzer said:


> Well congrats on the passes you earned. It would seem as though that should have been a master ribbon handed out at the end of the day for you instead of a senior ribbon.


Thank you. It was an interesting test to say the least. Lots of grumbling from handlers, but it was an educational experience. Training for 1 level higher than the class we are testing at saved our bacon. I thought we were going to have another "Training Day".


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

There is no 5 dog rule. Period!-Paul


----------

