# Have you noticed?



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Those of you who have carefully taken your dog(s) through the Definitive Casting program, have you noticed you got more out of it than just the improved compliance with casting out of mark suction? What else sharpened in your dog?

Evan


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

Evan do you talk about Definitive casting in your transition seminar?


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

What's the definitive casting program?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I was just asking via p.m. if it was the same step the Lardy folk call Disciplined Casting? The handling step best described as swim by on dry land, or handling with bumper/bird in mouth. Is that of what you speak?
　
.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

wendelb68 said:


> Evan do you talk about Definitive casting in your transition seminar?


Yes. In fact, in our upcoming seminar hosted by the West Central Ohio Hunting Retriever Club in August we'll be doing some of those drills, including #6 - a delayed poison bird blind. They're tons of fun for the dogs, and fun for handlers too.

Evan


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

I am bringing my 13 yo son that is at this stage of training with his yellow lab female. That seminar is July 29th and 30th.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

wendelb68 said:


> That seminar is July 29th and 30th.


Thanks for the reminder. We originally talked about late August.

Evan


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

You had better be there, Evan!!...sure they would not have much fun without you  

"sharpens"...Lots of confidence..looking out with great focus when given Q for blind. No hesitation to leave the poison bird alone. ?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> *"sharpens"...Lots of confidence..looking out with great focus when given Q for blind. No hesitation to leave the poison bird alone.* ?


Right you are, Judy! And then some. I've noted that most trainers choose this program to help with diversion mark work in association with blinds, especially poison bird work.

What most find is that there are a host of co-benefits. This course of drills sharpens every fundamental aspect of handling, and does it in a way that keeps the dog's spirits very high. If a dog enters this course having any handling issues, those issues tend to disappear as they progress.

Evan


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Any more input from others?


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

As it relates to Judy's quote, my dogs seem to acquire a noticeable boost in their responsiveness.....and I like a dog that _asks_ "What do you want me to do next?"


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## PocketLab (Apr 23, 2010)

Evan, was going to get started on the program but she started her heat cycle the day I asked you about it. Looking forward to it, but waiting for her full attention.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Has she been unstable in heat previously?

Evan


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

My dog is always a little screwy when she is getting ready to go into heat. Once she goes in and starts it settles down. I feel like I need to keep training through it. The one thing that I do change is that I work on things to build confidence and not introduce any new concepts. I understand her limitations and work through it. Dont get frustrated but remember that they should be about to still have good obedience. I also have a group of people I train with that have male dogs and they want me to train with them when she is in heat because they need to learn to work though their distractions. Females will give off scent before they actually start.


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## PocketLab (Apr 23, 2010)

Evan said:


> Has she been unstable in heat previously?
> 
> Evan


Only her second cycle. She will turn 3 in July. She is not acting like herself. Not as much energy, a little diarrhea, just not quite right. Just want to make sure I have her full attention.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Good plan, Rick. Maybe just some fairly easy marks right now, and see how she is with it.

Evan


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Evan,
I have just started watching this video, but was wondering if this could cause a popping problem on marks, since you are throwing a mark first and then stopping to handle?
Thanks, Brad


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Brad,

That's a reasonable question. But I can tell you that it never has at all in any of the more that 100 dogs I've seen through the program - either directly or indirectly. Better yet, there are solid reasons why it's unlikely.

The best is that they still always (I hate that word!) get their bird. What we do during these drills is demonstrate consistently to these dogs is that compliance with each cast is what gets them their mark. No matter how much we may have to simplify, break it down, walk out and get close...no matter if we have to walk the dog all the way to the cast to show them how to succeed, they come right back and get their mark - every time!

The result is not only much more reliable handling, but also happy stylish dogs in the process. And so far no popping...ever with our dogs.

Evan


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## godoggo (May 10, 2011)

Which of your programs or tapes are you talking about. I have a friend who has talked about definitive casting and recommended it to me.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

godoggo said:


> Which of your programs or tapes are you talking about. I have a friend who has talked about definitive casting and recommended it to me.












The Definitive Casting DVD. It is focused soley on this set of drills. There are six drills in the program.

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

so Mike's disciplined casting and Evan's definitive casting are two different tasks with similar sounding names?
　
.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> so Mike's disciplined casting and Evan's definitive casting are two different tasks with similar sounding names?
> 
> .


Big difference in terms of drill, simular names.

Getting ready to start running some of Evan's drills with my dog, I will do more poisen birds work first as a refresh, then get into these drill's as something to do this winter, along with everything else I need to do!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> so Mike's disciplined casting and Evan's definitive casting are two different tasks with similar sounding names?
> 
> .


Yes. Unrelated.

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Disciplined casting is a name Mike used to describe something many of us did for a long time, and called it "Run-by".

Definitive casting is a skill set taught through a 6-drill program that defines literal casts in the presence of significant suction. A mark is designed into each drill to create suction, and strengthen the dog's conviction about taking a cast as given. It's a major hedge against the suction of diversion marks, and most especially poison birds.

And the dogs love 'em! Attrition is key. Actual pressure is minimal to non-existent.

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Disciplined casting is quite effective and I like to do it before heading to swim by. 

Been a lot of years since I saw someone wrap a collar around a dogs ass. I would say more OB is in order. This is an age old drill, although i would say in the YTube video I'm not fond of its execution. By the time I'm doing drills like this with a dog, I should be able to cast them to the bird without throwing another mark to get them to go.

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Been a lot of years since I saw someone wrap a collar around a dogs ass. I would say more OB is in order. This is an age old drill, although i would say in the YTube video I'm not fond of its execution. By the time I'm doing drills like this with a dog, I should be able to cast them to the bird without throwing another mark to get them to go.
> 
> /Paul


So, you actually presume to know and understand this program, having seen a clip of one of its drills? The use of an alternate point of contact for the e-collar in that clip was an exception made for _that_ particular dog; _not_ for the drill. The execution was also tweaked for _that_ particular dog.

There are six drills in the DCD program, and they're about 4 years old. The program has been immensely effective with a wide variety of dogs, and addresses all fundamental elements of handling, as well as contributing to much more advance concepts as indirect benefits.

Evan


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Disciplined casting is quite effective and I like to do it before heading to swim by.


Definitive Casting has been very effective with my dogs. All four ran this sequence during transition......*after* swim-by, de-cheating, pattern blinds and diversion work including basic KRD's. They were running long cold blinds with factors. 

The continual diversion of "which program is better" avoids confronting the real issues which are trainer skill level and experience. If there were more focus on being a better teacher, most of these tangents would become baseless. The premise of "this is what I think you should do" is kind of pointless when the person seeking advice is often not on the same page and the dog is an unknown quantity. 

I get tired of reading this same trend. "If you are using the program I support, then you are not doing it correctly." If you are using program *X* (which in my opinioin is not good), you need to switch to an effective program." 

In most cases, it is not the dog........or the program.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> So, you actually presume to know and understand this program, having seen a clip of one of its drills? The use of an alternate point of contact for the e-collar in that clip was an exception made for _that_ particular dog; _not_ for the drill. The execution was also tweaked for _that_ particular dog.
> 
> There are six drills in the DCD program, and they're about 4 years old. The program has been immensely effective with a wide variety of dogs, and addresses all fundamental elements of handling, as well as contributing to much more advance concepts as indirect benefits.
> 
> Evan


What I know is what I saw on the clip was a poor implementation of a drill I learned almost 20 years ago and have been using regularly since. I first saw a collar strapped on a dog like that at a Jim Dobb's seminar in roughly that same time period. I believe the Tri-Tronics book also has that in it, although I haven't looked at that book in years and would have to go look again. 

I can honestly say that in all these years I've only tried a collar on the ass of a dog a few times, didn't really like the results much and decided I'd rather backup and work on foundation vs using this method. I've seen people strap collars all over a dog, once even strapped on the testicles. Also seen slipping the ear under the prongs, or multiple collars on a dog. I frankly have found that if you feel the need to go to that extreme, then the program needs work. Just my honest opinion. 

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> What I know is what I saw on the clip was a poor implementation of a drill I learned almost 20 years ago and have been using regularly since.


I appreciate that perspective, Paul. But I hope it at least crossed your mind that the drill you ran, and the drill in the video, may very well _not_ be the same drill? And that may be why the execution doesn't appear to be what you would do. Tossing the bumper into the cast pile is rarely needed, but seemed the right thing at the time. Usually, pre-identifying the pile is adequate.

I have confidence that dog-savy trainers over the years may have run something akin to DCD #1, and even for similar reasons. I have real doubts that anyone as assembled this 6-drill program prior to me.










This is drill #1, configured as it is seen briefly in the video clip. It is, as all drill work should be, tailored to the dog running it. There is significant history behind the dog seen in the clip, which is an entirely different discussion.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I first saw a collar strapped on a dog like that at a Jim Dobb's seminar in roughly that same time period. I believe the Tri-Tronics book also has that in it, although I haven't looked at that book in years and would have to go look again.


I first saw that technique in a video of the same source. It's not something I'm fond of as a method, but found it useful in a couple cases; this dog being one. A couple sessions, and his shortcomings resolved, and the collar went back in it's traditional spot. 

That's why I'm uncomfortable with terms like "never" and "always". I'm willing to do what each dog needs most. If it's thinking (or doing) outside the box, or convention, I'll do that.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I frankly have found that if you feel the need to go to that extreme, then the program needs work. Just my honest opinion.
> 
> /Paul


I appreciate your honesty. Sadly, this dog didn't have the advantages of going through Basics with me, or with my friend Vince. We had many holes to fill. The dog is such a nice boy that he has come along very well.

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan, I would say that all trainers on a daily basis create and modify existing drills to tailor to the dogs needs at the time. The video was in my opinion a poor choice to demonstrate this drill. The dog by your own admission has issues and does not meet what I would consider the prerequisites for this level of drill. As a prerequisite I would expect a dog to be pretty solid on running simple cold blinds and solid on go/stop/come before I would start him on this drill. Since control is clearly a problem for this dog then there are things that should be done to help enforce that before getting to this concept. 

/Paul


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> The use of an alternate point of contact for the e-collar in that clip was an exception made for _that_ particular dog; _not_ for the drill. The execution was also tweaked for _that_ particular dog.


OK, I'm not going to get into a whose program is better commentary. But, I do HAVE to comment on the use of an "Alternate point of contact" method used in the video clip. I personally think that in today's modern era of retriever training, and collars that have 18 levels of momentary or continuous stimulation (or in Dogtra's case, a nice dial), with the ability to add receivers on the collar (actually the point is to be able to dial down the stimulation), and be applied in the *appropriate* place, that this is archaic and appalling. And, it certainly has NO place on a video, where any person who views it will beleive that they have one of the "exceptions". If someone cannot find a more humane way to train the dog, perhaps the dog should be re-homed. And, if one believes that dogs have the mental capacity of a 3-5 year old, and we can't shape a dog's behavior using better methods than strapping a collar on its behind, then perhaps we should just quit training. Arghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

This make me ill.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Being kind of new at all this I have a question..

Why is e-collar contact point such an issue? It seems to me that with my heeling stick, my contact points vary depending on what I am doing, i.e. a sit stick is direct to the butt of the dog, the stick when I use it for distraction, i.e. stick fetch, is more on the shoulder of the dog, and when I am using it for stick to pile, it is more often the tail or behind the tail (to push the dog forward). And when I want to pet my pup, I use the stick to scratch behind the ear! Why should the e-collar be any different in terms of location if used for a specific purpose?

I have not used an e-collar on the butt of my dog's, thought about it a time or two!  What additional harm is going to the dog being that the shock is on the back of the dog's butt vice on the neck? Just asking so be nice to me, just trying to understand the resistance to this possible use of the e-colllar and what detrimental effects it would have on a pup!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Byron Musick said:


> Being kind of new at all this I have a question..
> 
> Why is e-collar contact point such an issue? It seems to me that with my heeling stick, my contact points vary depending on what I am doing, i.e. a sit stick is direct to the butt of the dog, the stick when I use it for distraction, i.e. stick fetch, is more on the shoulder of the dog, and when I am using it for stick to pile, it is more often the tail or behind the tail (to push the dog forward). And when I want to pet my pup, I use the stick to scratch behind the ear! Why should the e-collar be any different in terms of location if used for a specific purpose?
> 
> I have not used an e-collar on the butt of my dog's, thought about it a time or two!  What additional harm is going to the dog being that the shock is on the back of the dog's butt vice on the neck? Just asking so be nice to me, just trying to understand the resistance to this possible use of the e-colllar and what detrimental effects it would have on a pup!


 
Byron- these alternate points of contact reek of "yesteryear". Back in the days when people put lip clips on dogs, and the corners of the mouths were burned so badly they scarred. Clips were run off the collars and placed on testicles. Burns also occurred. The fur and skin around the neck is typically thicker. They also shot rat shot into their behinds. Used prod poles on a regular basis. And yes, I am quite well aware that some people still do this and think it's appropriate. I do not. Our training tools have evolved. I think we should all evolve with it. 

If someone really wants to know what a collar on the behind feels like, strap yourself up and hit yourself with a high 6; don't forget to video tape it for all of us. (yes, sarcasm intended).

To me, some of this "stuff" that people do in the name of dog training just isn't worth it.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I am not new to the ecollar or dog training and I agree with Bryon's question. I do not, nor have not, ever put a collar on the rump of a dog, BUT , why would you think it is anymore sensitive on the rump, than around the neck.....I would think it would be less sensitive there, than around the neck. 
Putting it on your rump has absolutely nothing to do with a dogs rump.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I have never put a collar on my dogs ass, but then again I didn't need to, he has great whistle sits while handling. However I can assure you when my dog creeps as a bird comes out and I crack his ass with my heeling stick it hurts far more than the 2-high he gets on his neck for a correction.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Sorry folks, when I first got into this field stuff and trained with a bunch of hunt testers and hunt test pros who claimed they ran field trials, and saw what these "alternate contacts" can do to a dog, I'm not buying it. If you haven't seen the aftermath.......  I'd let my dog sit on the couch first.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

The thing is if you are *always *smacked upside the head, then all of a sudden you are smacked on the rump , it is going to surprise you more and you will probably be more reactive...


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> Sorry folks, when I first got into this field stuff and trained with a bunch of hunt testers and hunt test pros who claimed they ran field trials, and saw what these "alternate contacts" can do to a dog, I'm not buying it. If you haven't seen the aftermath.......  I'd let my dog sit on the couch first.


Is this at the same era that e-collars only had 1 level?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

savage25xtreme said:


> Is this at the same era that e-collars only had 1 level?


 Good question....if I had to train with only a green plug today, with MY dogs, they would be couch dogs....


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> The thing is if you are *always *smacked upside the head, then all of a sudden you are smacked on the rump , it is going to surprise you more and you will probably be more reactive...


I guess I don't need my dogs to be surprised. I train based om consistency and attrition. I guess you can try to justify anything in this world. You obviously have not seen the aftermath of "alternate contact points.". This is one glass of kewl aide I will NOT be drinking. But how anyone else treats their own dogs is their business.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I guess I don't need my dogs to be surprised. I train based om consistency and attrition. I guess you can try to justify anything in this world. You obviously have not seen the aftermath of "alternate contact points.". This is one glass of kewl aide I will NOT be drinking. But how anyone else treats their own dogs is their business.


You keep harping on this "aftermath" of alternate points of contact as if all such applications are equal, and all are automatically done at a maximum level, as if to leave some physical scar (which e-collar stimulus does not). I get the firm impression you're thinking with your emotions about this, rather than forming conclusions based on fact.

It seems you're assuming that in this application the e-collar is dialed to some super high level, to such an extent as to do physical harm. It never went above a high 2. But Byron made the more salient point. The stimulus the dog receives at any point of contact is quantitatively and qualitatively the same. Some points are more or less sensitive, but only by degrees. 

This measure was not an attempt to apply more pressure. It's done to apply the same, or usually less, to a point that would tend to cause the dog to react physically by reflexively driviing his rump down, just like being sticked to do so.

No more is it axiomatic that using a stick means using it with maximum pressure than using an e-collar at a different point of contact automatically means a high 6. The principle is totally disconnected from such an archaic train of thought.

Good luck, whatever you do. But your assessment of this method is totally disconnected from reality.

Evan


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I am not trying to justify as I don't use it , just saying that it is probably just like on the neck and you need to condition them to it....


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Good question....if I had to train with only a green plug today, with MY dogs, they would be couch dogs....


Nope, sorry. 15 levels of momentary or continuous. I've seen the aftermath of alternate contact points. I won't go there. the advanced tools were there, just not used as directed.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well I can tell you I've seen the reactions of dogs with collars on "alternative contact" points and I will state that if you have to resort to that then you need to backup and re-evaluate the dogs education and knowledge. I have used collars since I was 14 years old, back when they had hot, damn hot and fry your ass hot. I can tell ya that dogs are cc'd with a known stimulus in a certain area of their body, primarily their neck. Taking a collar and putting it somewhere else not only comes as a shock to them that they have no foundation for responding too, but the sensitivity levels on various places on their body vary. A 2 on the neck is not a 2 somewhere else. More importantly in my opinion, if you are resorting to this, then their is a hole in the dogs education. 

/Paul


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> You keep harping on this "aftermath" of alternate points of contact as if all such applications are equal, and all are automatically done at a maximum level, as if to leave some physical scar (which e-collar stimulus does not). I get the firm impression you're thinking with your emotions about this, rather than forming conclusions based on fact.
> 
> It seems you're assuming that in this application the e-collar is dialed to some super high level, to such an extent as to do physical harm. It never went above a high 2. But Byron made the more salient point. The stimulus the dog receives at any point of contact is quantitatively and qualitatively the same. Some points are more or less sensitive, but only by degrees.
> 
> ...


Evan- you have a knack for telling others that they are disconnected from reality if they disagree with you. There is no emotion here- I don't need to strap an e-collar to my dog's ass to achieve a great sit maintain. Since you are putting materials out in the general public you have a duty to make sure that dogs will not be harmed by mis-interpretation of your materials. Yet I always see a ton of questions regarding same. Then you answer and direct people to buy more of your product. Great marketing since it's free. 

But I must be missing the boat since I just haven't had any success (she said quite sarcastically), since I have never, and will never, strap an e-collar to my dog's ass or any other alternate contact point.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> But I must be missing the boat since I just haven't had any success (she said quite sarcastically), since I have never, and will never, strap an e-collar to my dog's ass or any other alternate contact point.


Really??? No kidding?? Where did you learn that??
From those Wisconsin boys ya been hangin with???? ;-)


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Evan 
Not to call you out. I don't Read the retriever news. I do look at from time too time the results on entry expess . And I have never seen your name as a handler that had placed . Now I said from time to time and I could have missed you placinga dog. By all means I'm not the most attentive when it comes to other parts of the country. So for my satisfaction could you tell us what dogs you trained from a pup too afc-fc or other with out a pro to assist you I'm just curious and I'm not being vendictive. Sorry about the spelling


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> Evan
> I'm just curious and I'm not being vendictive. Sorry about the spelling


I stopped running trials in the early 90's. But the question does come up now and then, as though all training successes are measured in field trial ribbons. Half way down the page is my personal record. http://www.rushcreekpress.com/testimonials.html

As for how people do with my method, http://www.rushcreekpress.com/champions.html

Hope your curiosity is met.


Jeff Bartlett said:


> Evan
> So for my satisfaction could you tell *us*


So, for my satisfaction, who is the "us"? Whom do you represent?

Evan


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Evan said:


> I stopped running trials in the early 90's. But the question does come up now and then, as though all training successes are measured in field trial ribbons. Half way down the page is my personal record. http://www.rushcreekpress.com/testimonials.html
> 
> As for how people do with my method, http://www.rushcreekpress.com/champions.html
> 
> ...


Thanks Evan you cleared it up for me. When I said us I ment the folks that question your training abilities techniques. Once again my post wasn't to call you out as a phony.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

You're welcome, Jeff. I understand.

Evan


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I agree in most cases the use of an e-collar on a rump is completely detrimental for further training. Dogs are much more sensitive there, a 2 on the neck is more akin to a 5++ on the rump. It almost always results in bolting. I've spent several evenings trying to find bolted dogs who trainers thought this might be a good idea. It does smack of yesteryear, the dogs we breed today are much more trainable and sensitive so that it probably has no value to the novice trainer, and probably shouldn't be on training videos giving inexperienced trainers ideas. That being said I have a seen a rump e-collar used and been productive in the hands of a very knowledgeable pro only once, It was a case of a returned dog who had been so badly turned off an e-collar in training by another "Pro" that the dog would not function with a collar on it's neck, sad thing was that the dog had been running at a high SH-beginning MH before this happened. Reconditioning with a neck collar was not working so the dog was conditioned to the collar on it's rump, which the trainer was very very hesitant to do. It did end up working and they were eventually able to switch it back to a neck collar, But not something I'd be comfortable doing, with any of my dogs.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I agree in most cases the use of an e-collar on a rump is completely detrimental for further training.


Have you noticed that all these dire theories about how detrimental the rump contact come from trainers who either have only tried it once, (and were successful), or haven't done it at all. I'm sure the assertions of damage make sense in theory. 

I've used dozens of times over several decades without a single incident like those described. In fact, there hasn't been a single negative outcome. Not a bolt, not a traumatized dog, no physical harm (e-collars don't do that, especially on a rump or neck) - not any of the imagined horrors. Just well trained dogs that run stylishly, stop sharply, and enjoy their work - all having been successfully transitioned to the conventional neck position in very littlle time.

I'm not selling the notion. On the other hand, I do endorse it as a viable alternative because I know that it's effective, and historically safe. But I'm positioned to say that. I've done it...many times. I think the concern is well intended, but poorly founded, and doesn't wash with reality.

Evan


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Evan said:


> Have you noticed that all these dire theories about how detrimental the rump contact come from trainers who either have only tried it once, (and were successful), or haven't done it at all. I'm sure the assertions of damage make sense in theory.
> 
> I've used dozens of times over several decades without a single incident like those described. In fact, there hasn't been a single negative outcome. Not a bolt, not a traumatized dog, no physical harm (e-collars don't do that, especially on a rump or neck) - not any of the imagined horrors. Just well trained dogs that run stylishly, stop sharply, and enjoy their work - all having been successfully transitioned to the conventional neck position in very littlle time.
> 
> ...


Well, Evan, I'm no pro but I have seen it done, multiple times, including some of my own dogs when I was a noob too stupid to question what was being done to them. It wasn't pretty, I ended up with some screwed up dogs and I know enough now to know that was a terrible thing I allowed to happen when it didn't have to be that way. My personal experience with a collar on the dog's butt was awful and would raise a caution for just anyone to be trying it just because it might be given credence by someone on a retriever training forum.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Rainmaker said:


> Well, Evan, I'm no pro but I have seen it done, multiple times, including some of my own dogs when I was a noob too stupid to question what was being done to them. It wasn't pretty, I ended up with some screwed up dogs and I know enough now to know that was a terrible thing I allowed to happen when it didn't have to be that way. My personal experience with a collar on the dog's butt was awful and would raise a caution for just anyone to be trying it just because it might be given credence by someone on a retriever training forum.


Can't the same be said of a collar on the neck controlled by an inexperienced/poor trainer?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Well, Evan, I'm no pro but I have seen it done, multiple times, including some of my own dogs when I was a noob too stupid to question what was being done to them. It wasn't pretty, I ended up with some screwed up dogs .


You understand that this is the same sort of story that has been advanced again and again for years on Internet forums and elsewhere, damning the e-collar itself. There are now enough e-collar trainers who know that such a story is of someone abusing the tool, or in the case a simple procedure, but damning the (tool) or procedure. It's up to you to believe what you will. But the number of dogs that incurred ANY negative effects as a result of this technique in my hands, and those of my friends, is zero. And there is no real reason why there would be, except abuse.

A trainer who would abuse a dog with an e-collar would abuse one with something else if there were no e-collars. A trainer who would abuse a dog with a sound technique would abuse one in some other way if they hadn't used that technique.

There are still anti-collar trainers attempting to throw the baby out with the bath water in the same way. Do or don't do as you will.

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Can't the same be said of a collar on the neck controlled by an inexperienced/poor trainer?


Or, more importantly, an abusive one?

Evan


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Rick_C said:


> Can't the same be said of a collar on the neck controlled by an inexperienced/poor trainer?


Of course, but was responding specifically to Evan's statement that I quoted and giving my personal experience. No ecollar training should be taken lightly but strapping one on the butt or any other part other than the neck shouldn't be done at all if they don't know WTH they are doing. There are all sorts of archaic ways to force a dog into a desired behavior, but that doesn't mean they are the best or most effective way, given today's wide range of training options & information.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

People are apt to take anything they read by particular people as the holy grail, just my experience with an ecollar on the dog's butt, for the noobs who think anything goes.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Have you noticed that all these dire theories about how detrimental the rump contact come from trainers who either have only tried it once, (and were successful), or haven't done it at all. I'm sure the assertions of damage make sense in theory.
> 
> I've used dozens of times over several decades without a single incident like those described. In fact, there hasn't been a single negative outcome. Not a bolt, not a traumatized dog, no physical harm (e-collars don't do that, especially on a rump or neck) - not any of the imagined horrors. Just well trained dogs that run stylishly, stop sharply, and enjoy their work - all having been successfully transitioned to the conventional neck position in very littlle time.
> 
> ...


Evan, I've been training dogs for 25 years. My uncle was a pro and I've been focused on retrievers for 15 or so years. I've seen draconian training methodologies when we did hounds that would scare the holy living heck out you. Its not that the dog is going to be physically harmed for life by having a collar strapped on its ass. It comes down to holes in the training program. If you have to resort to this method, then fundamentally there is something wrong. If you have to use it that much, then perhaps its time to evaluate your own openness to continuing to learn. I sat on a tailgate after training one day in 2002 and made a commitment to completely relearn how to train dogs. I threw out proven successful methodologies because I didn't want to train dogs in such harsh manners. Since then I've come to appreciate what top proven pro's do in training the top dogs in the country. I work to improve my training methods every day. Instead of defending these methods, I would propose that you step back, re-evaluate why you're having to resort to these methods and humbly seek answers. 

/Paul


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> You But the number of dogs that incurred ANY negative effects as a result of this technique in my hands, and those of my friends, is zero. And there is no real reason why there would be, except abuse.


So, what exactly are your statistics? And, how many dogs with newbies had no negative effects? I'd like to know more about the research. Do you also have a video on how to collar condition the dog's behind? I'd like to purchase 12. Yesh.

It makes me recall the dog "willie" who had the collar used on an alternative contact point. Bolted. Was never found again. We now call him "Free Willie." And the person doing it was no newb. And credentials greater than most.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

JusticeDog said:


> Byron- these alternate points of contact reek of "yesteryear". Back in the days when people put lip clips on dogs, and the corners of the mouths were burned so badly they scarred. Clips were run off the collars and placed on testicles. Burns also occurred. The fur and skin around the neck is typically thicker. They also shot rat shot into their behinds. Used prod poles on a regular basis. And yes, I am quite well aware that some people still do this and think it's appropriate. I do not. Our training tools have evolved. I think we should all evolve with it.


Justice, let me first say that this is NOT an attack on you. Me attacking you would be about like a squirrel attacking an elephant, because you have been doing it longer and know a whole lot more about what we are talking about than I do.

As definitely one of the "noobs" talked about in this thread, this topic has interested me for sure. I have not strapped a collar to my dog's rear, but I am not sure the blanket statment that such a technique would be akin to shooting a dog in the rear with rat shot or clipping a wire to his testicles would stand up to review. Just because some older techniques are no longer necessary or desirable (if they ever were) doesn't mean that all older techniques should be thrown out. That seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As an aside, I don't see how ANY male dog owner could ever connect electricity to a dog's testicles. It's just not right.

Compare that to, say, football practice over the years. We had a pretty good coach around here who at one time took a group of boys to Junction, TX in August and about killed most of them. Back then you scrimmaged with full contact, and asking for water, even in the 100+ degree heat, was admitting that you were not tough enough to play.

Over the years, some of the methods evolved. They took water breaks, and they quit scrimmaging all day every day. But they did not stop completely hitting, because you can't do that and play football. Just because some of the older ways were no longer the way to go didn't mean that all of them should go.

Let me also say that I probably wouldn't do this either, for the same reason I sent my dog to a pro for FF - I don't have the experience to judge the dog and his reactions and react appropriately. But if my pro asked me about it I would not reject it out of hand simply because it is something that was done along with other now unacceptable methods.

I guess what I am saying is that saying you wouldn't do something is not necessarily the same as saying nobody should do it.

I will now step back and listen to see just how wrong I really am.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> Justice, let me first say that this is NOT an attack on you. Me attacking you would be about like a squirrel attacking an elephant, because you have been doing it longer and know a whole lot more about what we are talking about than I do.
> 
> As definitely one of the "noobs" talked about in this thread, this topic has interested me for sure. I have not strapped a collar to my dog's rear, but I am not sure the blanket statment that such a technique would be akin to shooting a dog in the rear with rat shot or clipping a wire to his testicles would stand up to review. Just because some older techniques are no longer necessary or desirable (if they ever were) doesn't mean that all older techniques should be thrown out. That seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As an aside, I don't see how ANY male dog owner could ever connect electricity to a dog's testicles. It's just not right.
> 
> ...


RookieTrainer- I recognize that you are asking questions out of a willingness to learn, not an attack on me. You have to understand that I have learned a lot about dogs from negative role models- meaning people who have done things to my dogs or friends' dogs that should never have been done. Some of these things have cost the dog so severely that the dog was no longer competitive even in a hunt test venue. An example of this would be the dog that was prodded to make it go on a blind, but instead began to bug worse, and no longer would run a blind at all. Or, if you said the word "dead" in the house, the dog would crawl up your behind in fear. One such dog I successful taught to run a blind again by using the phrase "where's George?" Yes, it got a few looks, but "George" was a live pigeon. "george" was positive, "dead" from the previous trainer was not. 

Now, if we move onto alternate contact points, one must look to the future to see what it could cause, and whether or not it was really necessary. I have NEVER found that one needs to teach a sit-maintain by strapping an e-collar on a dog's behind. The skin is thinner on a dog's rear-end than around the neck. The simple use of a caliper would tell someone that. The bones are closer to the surface. I won't go into a whole anatomy lesson, but that dog will feel that collar to a greater degree on the butt than the neck. And, it won't have been collar conditioned for the behind. I think it's irresponsible to give a bunch of newbies permission slips to place that collar anywhere they think would be beneficial and call it an "alternate contact point." Just because Evan and his friends do it, and have done it without detriment, so he says, does not mean that every newbie with his book taking it out in the field will have the same success. I also would like to state that I am not criticizing Evan's program, just this particular issue in a big way. Training for the field and use of electronic collars in general always invites a host of criticism anyway, why would you want to put it out in the general public in such a manner? I think it has to do with responsibility to our dogs and our sport.

I have many dogs that I have had to retrain because "alternate" methods were used. Save yourself the headache and the heartbreak. It's just not worth it. While some might say, "boy, i can teach Fido to sit on a dime a lot quicker if I strap it to his ass", in the long run, you may be out in the field looking for Willie when he bolts. And never find him. Or, you may get a dog who doesn't want to sit by your side- because when he does, things get a little too hot. There are a dozen variables. I like my dog sitting close to my side. I can communicate with them better. When I lean down to say "easy", I don't want to lean a foot over as well. I want the reaction that they've heard me.... the little ear flick that says they understand. 

Even though obedience can be boring, it's better in the long run just to teach it through "non-alternative" means. Everything you do has a impact going forward. This is just one impact that I want no part of.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Evan said:


> Have you noticed that all these dire theories about how detrimental the rump contact come from trainers who either have only tried it once, (and were successful), or haven't done it at all.
> .Evan


I have noticed that a lot of methods and arcane drills that really are not necessary to training today's finished-competitive retrievers, and don't really hone any skill but teach tricks and confuse handlers; where training could be much more productive elsewhere. Are continuously re-hatched under different names and thrown out as the end all to teaching, because that's the way it's been. Trainers who also seemed to have not trained or competed a preforming dog in a number of years, and perhaps are not evolving with the times. I talked to a pretty prominent trainer last year, who had really well running dogs in the 80-90's and a really nice article library. He had come back from testing retirement because his dogs were not to preforming as well in today system. I have seen him and his group at a number of Test and Trials, the last 2-3 years, he's been adapting his methods and the dogs are back to preforming. Training, testing and dogs evolve and we have to continue to evolve with them, or get left behind. But little can be gained discussing such, so to prevent squabbling I'm done with this thread.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I have to ask the question since I am part way through Lardy's DVD if he resort to this technique??

I would think if you properly train your dog to whistle sit this sort of method must be a last resort. There are other places I could put Ecollars and not on the dog. You have to give the dog a fair chance in training IMHO


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I have noticed that a lot of methods and arcane drills that really are not necessary to training today's finished-competitive retrievers, and don't really hone any skill but teach tricks and confuse handlers; where training could be much more productive elsewhere. Are continuously re-hatched under different names and thrown out as the end all to teaching, because that's the way it's been. Trainers who also seemed to have not trained or competed a preforming dog in a number of years, and perhaps are not evolving with the times. I talked to a pretty prominent trainer last year, who had really well running dogs in the 80-90's and a really nice article library. He had come back from testing retirement because his dogs were not to preforming as well in today system. I have seen him and his group at a number of Test and Trials, the last 2-3 years, he's been adapting his methods and the dogs are back to preforming. Training, testing and dogs evolve and we have to continue to evolve with them, or get left behind. But little can be gained discussing such, so to prevent squabbling I'm done with this thread.


I'm going to agree with this post and Justicedog's also. If a person is marketing "new" material to be used by competition dogs, they need to be out there training and competing in this time period. The collars have evolved since several decades ago and the tests are much more difficult.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Rainmaker said:


> People are apt to take anything they read by particular people as the holy grail, just my experience with an ecollar on the dog's butt, for the noobs who think anything goes.


This, and the concern by you and others that new trainers will see a video like this and run out and strap the collar to their dogs butt to get them to sit, rather than taking the time to actually _teach_ them first, I agree with. 

Which is why many very successful trainers, pro and amateur alike, will not participate in threads seeking advice. They don't want to be responsible for someone screwing up their dog. Which is a shame for those of us trying to learn but completely understandable at the same time.

I don't believe that Evan suggests anyone do the former and think he does a good job overall of balancing the later while being as helpful as possible.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I think Paul nailed it.
*If you have to resort to that, there are major holes in the training program. Something is fundamentally wrong.*

" It's the overall approach that is most important. Treat the dogs with love and respect. Walk in your dog's shoes. Respect their intelligence.
Use _every fiber_ of your being to communicate to your dog. Be a mentor to your dog.."
Mike Lardy


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I have to ask the question since I am part way through Lardy's DVD if he resort to this technique??
> 
> I would think if you properly train your dog to whistle sit this sort of method must be a last resort. There are other places I could put Ecollars and not on the dog. You have to give the dog a fair chance in training IMHO


You will not find this technique in Lardy's DVD. I have not seen it at his seminar. 

I train regularly with Andy Attar who used to be one of Lardy's assistants, although has been on his own for a long time now. I have never seen Andy attach a collar to a dog's behind. Prior to that, I trained with Greg Bartlett in Texas. He was Bill Eckett's young dog trainer, and then went on his own after about 6 years to do it all - young dogs and open dogs. Never saw Greg strap a collar on a dog's rear end. 

Now, prior to that, I trained with people who used "alternate contact points." As one of my friend's said: "You wised up quicker than any of us" when I went elsewhere. I'm not saying I didn't learn anything from these folks. but the methods weren't' going to get me what I wanted long term. 


When someone "dares to be different" it doesn't always work out.

I also think Paul nailed it.
*If you have to resort to that, there are major holes in the training program. Something is fundamentally wrong.*



"Willie, where are you?" regards-


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I have to ask the question since I am part way through Lardy's DVD if he resort to this technique??


No, but in fairness to Evan, in his program the CCing to Sit is very simular to Lardy (the collar's on the neck). In the Basic Handling DVD, the process is discussed as an alternate method and goes into very good detail on why you would want to go that route.

I respect very much opposing opinions and concerns over the BUTT method with the collar, as they all have certainly earned the right to share their opinions since they are successful dog trainers with many years of experience. However I feel sorry for any Noobs who would watch that short video and attempt training with it?? The push should be to get Noob's to purchase and follow a program, etc... Otherwise following short clips would be like watching a dude jump from a Helicopter and fly through a hole in a mountain, dressed like batman and saying, yep gonna try that tomorrow! 


I think the mention of a collar on the butt in a short clip, turned a thread on Definitive casting into a collar contact point discussion. Too bad to, I was at a seminar and a fellow named Charles Hayden ran his FT dog on the final DCD drill #6, if you had seen that then we would have something to talk about, it was impressive!! Evan was there, he can tell you about it better! As a newbie I can tell you my thoughts were watching that "I want to do that one day"!! From what was discussed afterwords, the process would very much develop an advantage for a dog competing in a FT, those are not Evan's words, but the words of a seasoned, experienced, successful FT handlers that just happened to be hanging around! Maybe they were joking, who knows, but I think I will be able to get my dog to do the same thing, maybe not as good, but able to do it.. That would not be possible for a Noob without a program to go by! Just saying!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

“Draconian training methodologies”, because of “holes in the training program”... must “resort to this method”. “…such harsh manners…resort to these methods”.

All these terms, and many others were liberally applied to anyone who trained retrievers with an e-collar in any manner during the 70’s, 80’s, and even through a portion of the 90’s. It is, as it has always been, more a matter of opinion than of fact that drives such descriptions. A majority of those using these desperate terms were long time trainers who still shot dogs with 12 gauge shotguns, .22 rat shot, and used transistorized stock prods on them to make them go. 

But people see the world through the eyes of their own experience, and often allow only that view to construct any vision of what is or may be; philosophical myopia. If that had been the way the late Rex Carr had allowed himself to see the world of training many of us would never have become involved in retriever field sports, especially those using e-collars – and for good reason. He was the prime recipient of such accusations on countless occasions. Yet it was his innovations that led to methodologies for e-collar use, as well as vitally important advances in the design of the collars so many of us now use.

To assert that using an e-collar in any way other than to conventionally attatch it around a dog’s neck is “draconian”, or “harsh”, has no more merit than any other blanket condemnation once so broadly applied to using it conventionally. I’m sure it seemed logical to make those assertions to those critics, then and now. But that’s where theory and reality diverge. In practice, Carr-based methodology for e-collar use is now seen for what it is; humane and highly effective.

“Surely a dog trained with an electric collar would bolt as soon as he was shocked by one of those awful things!” It seemed logical. But it’s only a reality when the e-collar is misused, just like any other aversive. You can abuse a dog with an e-collar, a heeling stick, a rope, or even a rolled up newspaper. Or you can effectively train a dog with any of them. It’s not that tricky. But a person who is inclined toward abuse will find a way (and a tool), just as someone who wants to do it well and fairly will go to the time, trouble, and expense of learning how, and then will use his/her tools properly.

In the more than 35 years I’ve trained retrievers I’ve seen the very same tools, and the very same methods used well, fairly, and effectively by some trainers. And in that time, I’ve seen those same tools and methods used poorly, unfairly, and ineffectively by others. Neither type of trainer is identified by using any certain type of tool or method. But both are seen for what they are as a result of their choices. You can’t legislate that. Neither can you prove even a reasonable sounding theory through hyperbole.

The technique being portrayed so diabolically is strapping the e-collar around the dog’s waist, so that the contacts are situated over his rump. This is being portrayed as equal to lip-clipping and ear-clipping – all of which are only done for the express purpose of overwhelming a dog with pressure. That assertion is nonsensical, and disconnected from fact and reason. I do not know, nor have I ever known or associated with a trainer who uses those outlandish techniques. 

The assumption made by those who have chosen to lead this thread off topic over this _is_ that it’s done to enhance the effects of the e-collar for _greater_ pressure, like the idiotic clip measure mentioned above. In fact, all the arguments continue to highlight that erroneous notion. Contact over the rump is _not_ done for sensitivity or high pressure delivery of stimulus. It is only to illicit a response in a tactical manner as the dog’s rump will move away from the stimulus to sit, just as it will as a result of a heeling stick applied for the exact same purpose. And no one argues that dogs uniformly bolt due to that form of pressure to a dog’s rump. With most dogs, this has allowed the conditioning to be done with _less_ pressure than conventional conditioning, not _more_.

*Adapting* is not the same thing as *“resorting”* for those who are unable to make that distinction. This argument is truly much ado about nothing.

Evan


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I'm still waiting on that research. And, it's amazing that when you say it, it's "Fact" but when someone disagrees with you, it's a matter of opinion. 

Amazing. But not surprising.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> The video was in my opinion a poor choice to demonstrate this drill. *The dog by your own admission has issues and does not meet what I would consider the prerequisites for this level of drill.* As a prerequisite I would expect a dog to be pretty solid on running simple cold blinds *and solid on go/stop/come before I would start him on this drill.* Since control is clearly a problem for this dog then there are things that should be done to help enforce that before getting to this concept.
> 
> /Paul


Nailed it again...bold added by me. Overall approach, most important thing..
But, of course...JMO


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I'm still waiting on that research. And, it's amazing that when you say it, it's "Fact" but when someone disagrees with you, it's a matter of opinion.
> 
> Amazing. But not surprising.


The "facts", genius, are exactly what I've stated. First hand knowledge of my dogs, clients dogs, dogs at seminars, and the many owned by trainers who have come to day train over the years. The facts drawn from that experience _is_ my research, and it extends well beyond what you have offered. I'm not guessing about this, nor am I citing the results of a single experience.

Evan


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

You ass hats ruined what could have been a good thread. Now can the pissing contest be put to a stop??? I would like to hear some results from people who have completed definitive casting. I will be doing the drills with my dog at some point in the near future. NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND!!!!!!


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

Evan said:


> The "facts", *genius*, are exactly what I've stated.


I chose not to get involved with the topic at hand, however, I have always been of the belief that a professional worthy of respect can maintain their cool while under fire. 

Name calling on a public forum by a "professional," not so cool.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> The "facts", genius, are exactly what I've stated. First hand knowledge of my dogs, clients dogs, dogs at seminars, and the many owned by trainers who have come to day train over the years. The facts drawn from that experience _is_ my research, and it extends well beyond what you have offered. I'm not guessing about this, nor am I citing the results of a single experience.
> 
> Evan


And now, you've resorted to name calling because someone disagrees with you. And yes, my IQ is quite high, thank you!.

And, what you have offered does not extend well beyond my knowledge or experience. And, I actively train and run dogs well beyond the HR level of experience.

And, if any of these newbies want to come and train with me, I'd be happy to have them do so. No charge. 

Menza member regards-


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> I chose not to get involved with the topic at hand, however, I have always been of the belief that a professional worthy of respect can maintain their cool while under fire.
> 
> Name calling on a public forum by a "professional," not so cool.


Neither has this mindless attack been professional or cool, Melanie. As has already been pointed out, this side show has derailed what began as a good training thread.

Evan


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

JusticeDog said:


> RookieTrainer- I recognize that you are asking questions out of a willingness to learn, not an attack on me. You have to understand that I have learned a lot about dogs from negative role models- meaning people who have done things to my dogs or friends' dogs that should never have been done. Some of these things have cost the dog so severely that the dog was no longer competitive even in a hunt test venue. An example of this would be the dog that was prodded to make it go on a blind, but instead began to bug worse, and no longer would run a blind at all. Or, if you said the word "dead" in the house, the dog would crawl up your behind in fear. One such dog I successful taught to run a blind again by using the phrase "where's George?" Yes, it got a few looks, but "George" was a live pigeon. "george" was positive, "dead" from the previous trainer was not.
> 
> Now, if we move onto alternate contact points, one must look to the future to see what it could cause, and whether or not it was really necessary. I have NEVER found that one needs to teach a sit-maintain by strapping an e-collar on a dog's behind. The skin is thinner on a dog's rear-end than around the neck. The simple use of a caliper would tell someone that. The bones are closer to the surface. I won't go into a whole anatomy lesson, but that dog will feel that collar to a greater degree on the butt than the neck. And, it won't have been collar conditioned for the behind. I think it's irresponsible to give a bunch of newbies permission slips to place that collar anywhere they think would be beneficial and call it an "alternate contact point." Just because Evan and his friends do it, and have done it without detriment, so he says, does not mean that every newbie with his book taking it out in the field will have the same success. I also would like to state that I am not criticizing Evan's program, just this particular issue in a big way. Training for the field and use of electronic collars in general always invites a host of criticism anyway, why would you want to put it out in the general public in such a manner? I think it has to do with responsibility to our dogs and our sport.
> 
> ...


Great post, and I appreciate your taking mine in the way it was intended. I still say that I would likely never do this to my dog without a pro really convincing me that it was necessary and that there was no other solution. 

Of course, I also feel that way about beating the dog with a wiffleball bat to stop him from creeping, and it has taken me a lot to get used to using a crop or heeling stick on him - and I have a good idea of why those things are being done. Query whether folks who didn't know anything about what they are seeing would be more perplexed by either of these than the use of the e-collar.

As for giving us "newbies" permission to do things, I see where you are coming from and I agree that this is a concern. However, as Dirty Harry would say, at some point a man's got to know his limitations. 

I certainly don't think that just because I have committed large portions of the Lardy materials to memory that I am a good trainer. I have no experience to draw on when something happens that is "not in the book." I could be absolutely stumped for days by something that you would react to instantly, because you have been there and done that. Also, as you pointed out, something may accidentally work at one stage of training, only to come back and cause all sorts of problems at a later stage.

Heck, I had to have my pro tell me to just stop while walking when my pup would get out in front of me and let him come back to me before we started again. Made perfect sense right after he said it, and cleaned up the problem in about a week, but I'm not sure I would have ever stumbled across that one on my own. I'm sure none of you have similar stories. 

If a "newbie" doesn't have sense enough to stop and realize that they know maybe about 1% of what they need to know starting out, then I'm not sure the dog is safe regardless of where you put the e-collar. I have told my pro, and I believe this, that I need a lot more training than the dog does right now. I also know that I would probably not have thought this 20 years ago, and I shudder to think what I might have done to this dog I have now, who shows signs of maybe being a pretty fair dog.

Great dialogue on the underlying issue, which to me is "Under what conditions should you use unorthodox methods in training your dog?" No disrespect to Evan at all, but if I were considering using the method described in this thread, and I saw the forceful objections from people who, like Evan, know a whole lot more about it than I do, it would give me great pause about using such a method by myself.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> I chose not to get involved with the topic at hand, however, I have always been of the belief that a professional worthy of respect can maintain their cool while under fire.
> 
> Name calling on a public forum by a "professional," not so cool.



Felonie, you need to sit down and pipe down.  If you don't, we'll have to strap a collar on your ass and teach you to sit.

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Though it has become a distant memory, this is the opening post, and the actual topic.


Evan said:


> Those of you who have carefully taken your dog(s) through the Definitive Casting program, have you noticed you got more out of it than just the improved compliance with casting out of mark suction? What else sharpened in your dog?
> 
> Evan


Susan,

I apologize for having called you a genius. 

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> You ass hats ruined what could have been a good thread. Now can the pissing contest be put to a stop??? I would like to hear some results from people who have completed definitive casting. I will be doing the drills with my dog at some point in the near future. NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND!!!!!!


Just buy the CD. Everything you need to know is in there....thats the topic at hand....

/Paul


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> Neither has this mindless attack been professional or cool, Melanie. As has already been pointed out, this side show has derailed what began as a good training thread.
> 
> Evan


Actually Evan, I told you why I disagreed with your video, the method and putting it out there in public. To disagree with someone is not unprofessional. Name calling is.

Anyone want two of Evan's books? I don't want his negative energy on my shelf. I'll ship at no charge.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Once again, I would like to hear some comments on definitive casting. You people are acting like kids ganging up and internet attacking someone you obviously don't like. Either contribute to the intended discussion or stay out of the way. I would like to learn something worthwhile.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Ma, Jimmy called me a &^*[email protected]#! so I called him a **#$% =#+ )#[email protected]@#$!. Is that OK?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Evan said:


> Neither has this mindless attack been professional or cool, Melanie. As has already been pointed out, this side show has derailed what began as a good training thread.
> 
> Evan


Mindless attack? I think not. People who have seen a particular method you espouse have seen fit to caution others by relating their experience with that method, with well-written, thought-out responses based upon their experience, which includes some pretty nice accomplishments in the bunch. Nothing mindless about that, wasn't just some mud slingin' by people with nothing better to do.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> As for giving us "newbies" permission to do things, I see where you are coming from and I agree that this is a concern. However, as Dirty Harry would say, at some point a man's got to know his limitations.
> .


You've seen it in sports..... not everyone knows their limitations. You've even seen it in this thread where people resort to name calling and sarcasm when they are disagreed with. It just doesn't happen. 

Evan could have stepped back and said, "maybe she's got a point about putting this out in the general public, I'll think about it." But instead, the reaction was "how dare someone question me. I think I'll attack."

"Willie, Willie, where are you?" regards-


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Ma, Jimmy called me a &^*[email protected]#! so I called him a **#$% =#+ )#[email protected]@#$!. Is that OK?


I'd say you got the best of Jimmy!! 

Poor Jimmy..... I told Jimmy, RTF stands for really tough females (including Paul) so he was warned!!

I thought of this song, everytime I read this thread!! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJKg4TXf6PQ&feature=feedf


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> Once again, I would like to hear some comments on definitive casting. You people are acting like kids ganging up and internet attacking someone you obviously don't like. Either contribute to the intended discussion or stay out of the way. I would like to learn something worthwhile.


I bet if you call Evan he will give you a private consultation.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> .
> 
> I certainly don't think that just because I have committed large portions of the Lardy materials to memory that I am a good trainer. I have no experience to draw on when something happens that is "not in the book." I could be absolutely stumped for days by something that you would react to instantly, because you have been there and done that. Also, as you pointed out, something may accidentally work at one stage of training, only to come back and cause all sorts of problems at a later stage.
> 
> .


I look at learning the art of training as building a library of information for both you and your dog. Every day, week or month, you get a new book of information, or an article or whatever. As you practice, practice, practice, and something occurs, you can then pull that piece of information out of your library instantly and react just as quickly. Dogs also build their libraries. That's why they don't forget.... either over the winter when you start training again in the spring...... or something you tried with them that didn't quite work out that you will pay for later, and perhaps years to come. Another example of this would be dogs that are physically kicked out of gun stations for returning to an old fall. Those dogs will ultimately learn to flare the gun for years to come. Drill after drill may never rectify the problem, which now prevents them to run tight to a gun when you need it most. 

It's all building blocks. WHen something seems inconsequential at the moment, it doesn't make it so.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

claimsadj said:


> Either contribute to the intended discussion or stay out of the way.


You really don't understand how this forum works, do you? :razz:

Evan, I believe as someone marketing a training program and helping folks to become better trainers that you have an obligation to be somewhat of a role model. Sure we're all human and emotions can run rampant, but name calling by someone in your position just is not appropriate. 

Never gonna go pro regards,

Melanie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Neither has this mindless attack been professional or cool, Melanie. As has already been pointed out, this side show has derailed what began as a good training thread.
> 
> Evan


Evan, questioning a training method is not a personal attack. Sorry you see it that way. Questions promote thinking and reasoning. Don't take it personal, I've questioned Lardy, Don R, Rorem, Sargenti, Jerry P, Brook Vanderbrake, Jimmie G and got knows how many more dozens of well known successful dog trainers over the years. What I have come to appreciate is that most of those initially answered "I don't know...." and then we began to discuss and question more and use our experience and logical reasoning ability to come up with something that may or may not work for the dog in front of us. I'm frequently amazed at the humble and modest thinking these folks exhibit when it comes to what for them is a major portion of their life. 

Sorry if you're offended.

/Paul


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

I love a good trainwreck.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

*"...the concern by you and others that new trainers will see a video like this and run out and strap the collar to their dogs butt to get them to sit, rather than taking the time to actually teach them first, I agree with."*

What I highlighted is basically the issue as I think about it.

Evan, while I may not completely agree with the collar placement in the video, those raising the issue of the collar on that dog, in that video, have a valid criticism. BTW: I have used a collar on my dog in that manner.

I do think a clip without a dog having the collar strapped back there would have been a cleaner representation of doing that drill for many who will see it for the first time (i.e., newbie trainers, more or less). Many newbies won't understand why THAT dog has the collar on its behind in THAT video. 

It's a risk you don't have to take with that video - having newbies come away with the idea of putting the collar on the butt from an incomplete understanding of context (including and beyond that video clip) - when that approach is not what you want them to come away with in that video clip - you know it and I know it. 

You may want a particular individual with a particular dog to try that with the proper guidance, but that's not the intent of THAT video you posted given the context of its posting. 

And now you're defending yourself about a method of collar use when the purpose and intent of the video was to show part of the definitive casting system (as you've defined and teach the whole of it).

As to all the chatter about e-collar uses, start a new thread for flubbering sakes.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Well I don't want to take sides in this pissin' match but I will say this; I tried every bit of advice I could get from all the books in my library and all the brilliant minds on this forum, to get my dog to seat on a duck. NO LUCK!

But after only 3 sessions with a collar strapped to her ass ... done deal!!!!!

And that's all I know about that.

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm never offended by honest questions. I invite them. Always have. 

"I'm still waiting on that research. And, it's amazing that when you say it, it's "Fact" but when someone disagrees with you, it's a matter of opinion. 

Amazing. But not surprising."

Is there a question in there? Perhaps I did miss it.

"I've seen draconian training methodologies when we did hounds that would scare the holy living heck out you. Its not that the dog is going to be physically harmed for life by having a collar strapped on its ass. It comes down to holes in the training program. If you have to resort to this method, then fundamentally there is something wrong."

Perhaps there. No. I'm sure of it. No questions. Casting aspersions is not asking questions. Making judgments based on false assumptions and an entirely incorrect assessment is not inquisitive.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Disciplined casting is quite effective and I like to do it before heading to swim by.
> 
> Been a lot of years since I saw someone wrap a collar around a dogs ass. I would say more OB is in order. This is an age old drill, although i would say in the YTube video I'm not fond of its execution. By the time I'm doing drills like this with a dog, I should be able to cast them to the bird without throwing another mark to get them to go.
> 
> /Paul


This was your initial "question". The rest has been a variation on this theme. How can this be construed as an inquiry?


claimsadj said:


> Once again, I would like to hear some comments on definitive casting. You people are acting like kids ganging up and internet attacking someone you obviously don't like. Either contribute to the intended discussion or stay out of the way. I would like to learn something worthwhile.


PM, email, or call anytime. I'll be glad to help. But it does not appear that this topic will be allowed back on track.

Blood in the water regards,

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PhilBernardi said:


> ...but that's not the intent of THAT video you posted given the context of its posting.
> 
> And now you're defending yourself about a method of collar use when the purpose and intent of the video was to show part of the definitive casting system (as you've defined and teach the whole of it).


True enough, Phil. Good point. It was such a small side issue to me that including that little segment was only done because it was part of the footage we shot that day. It's been shown in the Internet a couple dozen times since it was posted - here and other places. This thread is the first time anyone even mentioned it.

I'll take your good advice, and I appreciate your input.

Evan


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> Blood in the water regards,


Your the one that put it there Evan. I've never said a word about your training program, even though I'm not an advocate, until now. If you're going to hold yourself out as an expert, you have to be able to take the criticism. You said you had research, I asked to see it. But, it's not really research, just your own "experience" when some of us have had opposite experiences. I still stand by my position, that the video is irresponsible. The training method unnecessary. So your response was to become defensive, sarcastic and call names. But, I am not going to stand by and watch training materials be put into the stream of commerce that could harm a dog without saying something. And without warning newbie trainers that this may not go over as slick as it seems.

If you won't want others to be able to comment, you can start your own forum, and your own blog, and allow yourself as the only poster.

Genius regards-


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> I'm never offended by honest questions. I invite them. Always have.
> 
> "I'm still waiting on that research. And, it's amazing that when you say it, it's "Fact" but when someone disagrees with you, it's a matter of opinion.
> 
> ...


Wow. 

I have no questions. In closing I will say that great trainers often say very profound statements. A few years ago standing in a group with Billy Sargenti he stated "Who the hell is Evan Graham...?"

The depth of a simple question has no bounds...

/Paul


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2011)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> A few years ago standing in a group with Billy Sargenti


Who the hell is Billy Sargenti?


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## jwcbf (Jan 14, 2009)

I took my pup through Definitive Casting and noticed several points of improvement…

1)	Dog stopped quicker and more inline
2)	Dog was more responsive after stop (“what’s the cast boss, what’s the cast")
3)	Dog took a more accurate/literal cast and carried it
4)	Our Poison bird abilities jumped tremendously.

And finally, we both really had fun doing it.

JW


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> Sorry folks, when I first got into this field stuff and trained with a bunch of *hunt testers and hunt test pros who claimed they ran field trials*, and saw what these "alternate contacts" can do to a dog, I'm not buying it. *If you haven't seen the aftermath*.......  I'd let my dog sit on the couch first.


The video appears to show a fine and enthusiastic running dog, which seems to have great attitude. I think I understand how upset you could be with seeing something which reminds you of an unpleasant event from the past but perhaps it is the "alternate contact point" which is the only similarity.

I use a modern e-collar in the familiar neck placement and I am not deterred in this action in spite of having seen other trainers use the same collar, in the same location but at levels of intensity and duration which I am neither comfortable with or with which, from my observation their dogs were comfortable with. I can draw no negative conclusion on the placement of the collar on this particular dog from the short exposure given in the video and feel it may be unwise for others to make such a claim based upon the same information. You may not have meant to imply this, so forgive me for highlighting your first observation, though I feel it might need addressing for the sake of others who could miss-construe your comment. My own opinion is that sound dog training is not the provenance of one side or the other in retriever sports nor is abuse.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

blind ambition said:


> The video appears to show a fine and enthusiastic running dog, which seems to have great attitude. I think I understand how upset you could be with seeing something which reminds you of an unpleasant event from the past but perhaps it is the "alternate contact point" which is the only similarity.
> .


Hmmmm...... not hardly. I know you don't know me very well, but I operate based on facts, not emotion. And the video shows one dog, not the dog that Joe newbie will be training in the field potentialy by himself with only his training video for company. In this instance, the facts are:

1. A dog's anatomy is such that the nerve roots are exposed to a greater degree at the rump, making it a more sensitive area for which the prongs and collars have not been tested. 
2. Putting this material out on the internet where millions can see it who don't know how to use a collar at all, and then creating an alternative contact point, is irresponsible. While Mr. Graham may have done it successfully with his friends, Joe Newbie may end up with a reaction that he/she had not bargained for. With no one with experience around to help him. 
3. we have enough criticism in our sport with the use of the collar in general without handing people a permission slip to even go further and create their own alternative contact points that are harmful. the sport does not need the bad publicity.
4. If you have to resort to such methods to get a dog to sit, there is a huge hole in your training program. There is no need or purpose to have to teach or enforce sit-maintain in such a manner.
5. Using alternative methods and promoting them should require that one has looked forward to the future to see what the long term effects can be.

That is what I have posted. now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go try and find Willie.................... here boy, here......


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> Evan
> Not to call you out. I don't Read the retriever news. I do look at from time too time the results on entry expess . And I have never seen your name as a handler that had placed . Now I said from time to time and I could have missed you placinga dog. By all means I'm not the most attentive when it comes to other parts of the country. So for my satisfaction could you tell us what dogs you trained from a pup too afc-fc or other with out a pro to assist you I'm just curious and I'm not being vendictive. Sorry about the spelling


Jeff, The reason why you have had no success finding Evans name listed in the Retriever Field Trial News is because they only list the names of dogs and handlers that had success and placed in the Trial.

As to your querry about a listing of dogs that Evan has put Field Trial titles on in his 35 years of training retrievers, Im 99.999% certain that he has never successfully titled a dog. 

Im sure that if I am wrong in this assertion that Evan will correct me and post up a listing of dogs he has titled


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> You will not find this technique in Lardy's DVD. I have not seen it at his seminar.
> 
> I train regularly with Andy Attar who used to be one of Lardy's assistants, although has been on his own for a long time now. I have never seen Andy attach a collar to a dog's behind. Prior to that, I trained with Greg Bartlett in Texas. He was Bill Eckett's young dog trainer, and then went on his own after about 6 years to do it all - young dogs and open dogs. Never saw Greg strap a collar on a dog's rear end.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply to my question. 

Yes I agree I think Paul has hit the nail on the head.
*
"More importantly in my opinion, if you are resorting to this, then their is a hole in the dogs education. " From Gun Dog 2002

*This statement is also very true also.



*Someone made this comment I think it was Rick C
Can't the same be said of a collar on the neck controlled by an inexperienced/poor trainer?
*
This comment is also bang on. In the wrong hands the E-collar may not be used properly. Poor use is sad! We all watch it going on- day in day out.

But the real concern I have is this comment *""...the concern by you and others that new trainers will see a video like this and run out and strap the collar to their dogs butt to get them to sit, rather than taking the time to actually teach them first, I agree with."
* 
Given this video and taken out of context in inexperienced hands makes for a bad scenario for the handler and dog. IMHO The dog must be treated with respect and given a fair chance when training. With proper teaching of the dog, I still see no reason to resort to this use of the E-collar in this manner. Such use and blatant improper uses of the E-collar are what gives the E-collar a bad rap!!! I think some have forgotten what the use of the E-collar is for! IMO


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Evan said:


> I stopped running trials in the early 90's. But the question does come up now and then, as though all training successes are measured in field trial ribbons. Half way down the page is my personal record. http://www.rushcreekpress.com/testimonials.html
> 
> 
> ?
> ...


Wouldn't you agree that Field Trial ribbons are about as good of an objective source that one can find as to training successes and which dogs have recieved the best training/handling?

I frequently travel all over the country to train the dogs with different groups of people. There are always plenty of well intentioned "supposed authorities" to train with. 
It has been my universal experience that the person with the most ribbons has the best grasp of dog fundamentals

The ribbons ain't coincidental and are quite illuminating in my experience


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

FinnLandR said:


> Susan, my PM was serious. If you are offering up the books for free, I will take them. I know someone of small means who could use them. Let me know.


I had someone who asked about them for a 14 year old, but I made them promise to never attach an e-collar to a dog's behind.  But let me see what I can do.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Good point!! [email protected];862749]Wow...All this concern about beginners getting the wrong idea and strapping a collar to a dogs ass. 
I think that it's noble to save a dog from that horror. But where was all this concern on a past thread, where very experienced trainers were advocating pushing a dog into unwanted behaviors in the yard. * You know, forcing until they pop, no go, and so on.* *All you guys don't think that was a dangerous thread to beginners??* I'd be willing to bet a lot more dogs have paid a big price from that particular thread, then for what this one is all about.
Walt[/QUOTE]


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Wow...All this concern about beginners getting the wrong idea and strapping a collar to a dogs ass.
> I think that it's noble to save a dog from that horror. But where was all this concern on a past thread, where very experienced trainers were advocating pushing a dog into unwanted behaviors in the yard. *You know, forcing until they pop, no go, and so on.* *All you guys don't think that was a dangerous thread to beginners??* I'd be willing to bet a lot more dogs have paid a big price from that particular thread, then for what this one is all about.
> Walt


Which thread was that? There is a huge difference between someone advocating forcing on the board (and I am not one of them) and someone marketing material to be sold to the public endorsing "strapping a collar to a dogs ass" as you say it. Even Chris has come on against posts that advocate too much force. I remember one person that posted forcing in that manner and he got a lot of heat and doesn't post here anymore.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> There is a huge difference between someone advocating forcing on the board (and I am not one of them) and someone marketing material to be sold to the public endorsing "strapping a collar to a dogs ass" as you say it. Even Chris has come on against posts that advocate too much force.


That's the error perpetuated in this argument. The technique under fire is cast as matter of increased pressure. *It is not.* It is only applying the same pressure to a different spot, and in usually smaller amounts...and for a short amount of time. Apply a heeling stick to a dog's but, as so many do, and no one blinks. Apply a low pressure nick to the same spot, and it's draconian. Nonsense.

Unless someone has a question about definitive casting I have no more time for this thread.

Evan


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

No questions, Evan, but I did just make an order. ;-)

Look forward to reviewing the whole thing. Thanks!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Thanks Phil. If there ever are questions, ask anytime!

Evan


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## godoggo (May 10, 2011)

Having trained two high speed labs nothing works like consistent obedience work. Or Sit means Sit and this needs to be started when they are young and constantly worked on. Its about attrition and teaching the dog. The ecollar is a tool to hone the sit but the dogs still needs to know sit.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

The only thing I have noticed is this bizarre rash I got after reading this thread. And a nervous tick. Note to self: do not follow advice of internet trainers and strap the collar in your butt just to see what it feels like. 

Ryders nuts are safe regards,


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

godoggo said:


> Having trained two high speed labs nothing works like consistent obedience work. Or Sit means Sit and this needs to be started when they are young and constantly worked on. Its about attrition and teaching the dog. The ecollar is a tool to hone the sit but the dogs still needs to know sit.


Hit the nail on the head for me here. And the dog needs to know exactly what you mean by sit. Quickly, smartly, square.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

godoggo said:


> Having trained two high speed labs nothing works like consistent obedience work. Or Sit means Sit and this needs to be started when they are young and constantly worked on. Its about attrition and teaching the dog. The ecollar is a tool to hone the sit but the dogs still needs to know sit.


 
Ding Ding Ding!  Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! 

I start my pups when they come in the door at 7-8 weeks old. I become the human pez dispenser! Treats so minute you can barely see them. It's all about operant conditioning! Sits, eye contact, etc. My puppies cast to treats on small white paper plates. 

I print out the total retriever training flow chart, and highlight as we go, when the steps are solid and complete. It's all about attrition. 

E-Collars and heeling sticks are just reminders. Not "draconian" tools of torture.

And yes, if I saw a video on YouTube of someone beating the "stuff" out fo their dog, I would have a problem with that also. Or, even using it. It's not OK to fuel the fire of PETA and the Humane organizations, or give the wrong impression to newbies.


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## AUGRAD (Jul 1, 2011)

JusticeDog said:


> And yes, if I saw a video on YouTube of someone beating the "stuff" out fo their dog, I would have a problem with that also. Or, even using it. It's not OK to fuel the fire of PETA and the Humane organizations, or give the wrong impression to newbies.


You mean your not a member? Dang i would have lost that bet!

I have a question, if you strap a collar to the dogs ass, and CC the dog just as you have the dog with the collar around his neck, how is it any different?
You are starting on the lowest setting, only increasing setting till you get a response from the dog. Evan never stated to strap the collar on the dogs ass and hit him with High 6. What is worse a nick on a level that makes a dog twitch his ear or blink his eyes or a healing stick across the rump. I dont see where this is any different than putting it on a dogs neck. On the neck you can ruin a dog just as well, if the right amount of pressure isnt picked.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

The biggest problem here is that Evan did it, everyone knows that.

I woulda lost a bet that Evan would lose his cool in this thread tho, so bravo to all the antagonists, I didn't think it could be done. 

Who the hell is /Paul though, usually someone so riotous isn't afraid to post up their name.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> The biggest problem here is that Evan did it, everyone knows that.


Your wrong about that. I've never picked on Evan's material. I still stand by the irresponsiblity of it all. Everything has it's place. Wolters, Graham, Milner, etc. People have a responsibility to newbies and the impression they are giving to the general public. 

BTW, who is "everyone"?


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## Duck Blind (Dec 11, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> It's not OK to fuel the fire of PETA and the Humane organizations



Wonder how PETA would feel about your website photo of the pups "playing" with a shackled or otherwise helpless pigeon? 

Use the e-collar...no don't use the e-collar. Hit 'em with the stick, no don't hit 'em with the stick. I am a self-described "NEWBIE" and at this point find this conversation more about highlighting one's moral beliefs about dog training than how to accomplish a specific task. Public lambasting is unneccessary; should have gone straight to a PM. Hash it out there so us 'newbies' can actually gain some insight into the original topic which we all know was how to strap an e-collar on a dog's rump?????
Brian


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Duck Blind said:


> Wonder how PETA would feel about your website photo of the pups "playing" with a shackled or otherwise helpless pigeon?
> 
> I am a proclaimed snooper of the rtf because I found that posting on the forum was detremental to my campaign. When one piles on the rest do, and as you have probably noticed its the same people over and over again. Its an interesting format, the rtf and one that doesn't mix well with amateur dog trainers! Some are responsible and understand people's opinions but most are not. When we start talkin about PETA and using their name in this context we have gone way over the line. Folks in the trial game are very sensitive of the subject. If it weren't for the chosen few that fight our fight we would have a sport that resembles canada or worse a venue that doesn't use birds! This is not a new thread so don't respond as I won't, keep PETA out of your dog fight, their public enemy number one to our game!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Duck Blind said:


> Hash it out there so us 'newbies' can actually gain some insight into the original topic which we all know was how to strap an e-collar on a dog's rump?????


A disagreement is not lambasting as you call it. And if all you awnt to know is how to put an e-collar on a dog's rump, just call Evan. He'll help you. You certainly won't find it in the Farmer video, teh Lardy video, Voight Video, Attar video. 

Why don't people just train their dog? You can have success without resorting to such methods.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Duck Blind said:


> Wonder how PETA would feel about your website photo of the pups "playing" with a shackled or otherwise helpless pigeon?


Oh, and the pigeon wasn't shacked. Still have it. It's fine. Its name is george. I paid $20 for it. The white ones are extra in chicago. The poultry places sell them to high end restaurants. And, I didn't place it on youtube.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> The biggest problem here is that Evan did it, everyone knows that.
> 
> I woulda lost a bet that Evan would lose his cool in this thread tho, so bravo to all the antagonists, I didn't think it could be done.
> 
> Who the hell is /Paul though, usually someone so riotous isn't afraid to post up their name.


/Paul's name is.....well, Paul. Because there are multiple "Pauls" on the board, he designates it as /Paul.

WRL


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> The biggest problem here is that Evan did it, everyone knows that.
> 
> I woulda lost a bet that Evan would lose his cool in this thread tho, so bravo to all the antagonists, I didn't think it could be done.
> 
> Who the hell is /Paul though, usually someone so riotous isn't afraid to post up their name.


Gavin Gavin Gavin. Don't wade into the deep end of the pool My name is well known, my phone number is available on here in numerous places and if you wanna find me its not hard. I train dogs and actually run HT's and FT's. Never made a video though

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Duck Blind said:


> Wonder how PETA would feel about your website photo of the pups "playing" with a shackled or otherwise helpless pigeon?
> 
> Use the e-collar...no don't use the e-collar. Hit 'em with the stick, no don't hit 'em with the stick. I am a self-described "NEWBIE" and at this point find this conversation more about highlighting one's moral beliefs about dog training than how to accomplish a specific task. Public lambasting is unneccessary; should have gone straight to a PM. Hash it out there so us 'newbies' can actually gain some insight into the original topic which we all know was how to strap an e-collar on a dog's rump?????
> Brian


Well if you go back and review, the comment about a collar on an ass was made by me, was not derogatory and in fact was more of a side comment. Evan is the one who had to address it and generated the spark that lead to most of this. Reality is there are various viewpoints on just about every aspect of dog training. Questioning and disagreeing with a particular method is pretty common. For the most part this discussion has been pretty civil... you should wait till we get a real disagreement going...

/Paul


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Paul, I am waiting for the photograph of "slappin a collar around your ass".


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> Paul, I am waiting for the photograph of "slappin a collar around your ass".


carol! NO! You don't! You'll go blind!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Susan, Paul has posted numerous images of his ass in various situations. If my vision is not impaired by now, I doubt seeing his ass lit up is going to do it>


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Gavin Gavin Gavin. Don't wade into the deep end of the pool My name is well known, my phone number is available on here in numerous places and if you wanna find me its not hard. I train dogs and actually run HT's and FT's. Never made a video though
> 
> /Paul


Then lets have it, Paul.... what? I am sure you are a great trainer, I am just curious who you are. I am glad you run HT's and FT's.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

2tall said:


> Paul, I am waiting for the photograph of "slappin a collar around your ass".


Leave my ass alone.....










/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> Then lets have it, Paul.... what? I am sure you are a great trainer, I am just curious who you are. I am glad you run HT's and FT's.


What would you like?

/Paul


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Wow...All this concern about beginners getting the wrong idea and strapping a collar to a dogs ass.
> I think that it's noble to save a dog from that horror. But where was all this concern on a past thread, where very experienced trainers were advocating pushing a dog into unwanted behaviors in the yard. * You know, forcing until they pop, no go, and so on.* *All you guys don't think that was a dangerous thread to beginners??* I'd be willing to bet a lot more dogs have paid a big price from that particular thread, then for what this one is all about.
> Walt


Those comments were spot on. Guess there's an obvious difference between somebody who understands what good basics are about & one who doesn't.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> Susan, Paul has posted numerous images of his ass in various situations. If my vision is not impaired by now, I doubt seeing his ass lit up is going to do it>


Thank goodness i've missed it!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Susan, see post 134 above. This poor creature has been exposed and abused in more threads than I can count.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> Susan, see post 134 above. This poor creature has been exposed and abused in more threads than I can count.


what is that woman doing to his butt?


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> What would you like?
> 
> /Paul


Your first and last name.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> Your first and last name.


Paul Cantrell
Black Ice Retrievers
541 988 2071
89354 Old Mohawk Rd
Springfield OR 97478

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Here Gavin, this should help you find me as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIZjq7nNSfk


/Paul


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Here Gavin, this should help you find me as well...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIZjq7nNSfk
> 
> ...



Ok. now we found you, where is the beer cooler at?:razz:


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Paul Cantrell
> Black Ice Retrievers
> 541 988 2071
> 89354 Old Mohawk Rd
> ...


I always thought you were the Paul that won the national open last year


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Brad said:


> Ok. now we found you, where is the beer cooler at?:razz:


Bubba's truck but i'm not sharing the frequency the tracker is on....

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> I always thought you were the Paul that won the national open last year


Sorry Jeff you have me confused. I'm the Paul came in just ahead of your dogs at PRTA....

/Paul


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Sorry Jeff you have me confused. I'm the Paul came in just ahead of your dogs at PRTA....
> 
> /Paul


What did I pick her up. Any time Any day:'(


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