# EIC results--good? bad?



## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

By now most people should have received their results from the U of MN study. The silence is deafining. What's up?

Jack


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

My dog that was previously diagnosed with EIC had two recessive EIC genes.


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

Both of our dogs came back with two normal genes.


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

The three that I had sent in blood samples early in the study, came back as being clear. Still waiting on the results for the puppy.

Andy


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## LabLady101 (Mar 17, 2006)

My girl is a _suspected_ Carrier. I say suspected because it's not a certified result- at least in the sense that CNM, Optigen, etc. are.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Actually, I just received my letter last week and all is well on this end!!!!!!!


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

One clear, one carrier.

Laura


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

We collected about 500 labs this summer. About 270 results have gone out so far. I have been sending out results in this rough order: First to those where the owner was present with the dog (to give trainers ample time to let owners know that results would be forthcoming). Secondly, I've tried to get those collected first to the owners soonest. Third, I've been holding results that all belong to the same owner if one or more of their dogs needed to be re-tested (rxn was not strong enough to read). 

We have noted quite a high carrier rate so far. For the population we tested between 30-40% (Trials in MN, ND, WI, Canada). We've also received samples from Germany, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand. The mutation was present in all these countries. 
Katie


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

30 - 40% does sound awfully high! It seems like there would be a lot more affected dogs. I have never even seen an affected dog. 

tt


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

That percentage is high, staggeringly so. But considering common breeding practices of using the same sires over and over again, and line breeding, not wholey unexpected. Line breeding can create many affecteds of a recessive trait in a hurry. One carrier sire can produce hundreds of new carriers in a relatively short amount of time. And this mutation has been around a long time. Probably pre-dating the split of the retrieving breeds.

We also found about 4% of the dogs tested were homozygous (two copies) for the mutation. A few of those had never collapsed, which is not unusual. Many diseases do have a percentage of genetically affected individuals who do not express the condition. The majority, we were told had had issues before.

As would be expected, most affected dogs are removed from training when they begin collapsing (usually between age 7 mos and 2 yrs), so you would likely never see these dogs at a field trial. Hopefully they are being placed in great pet homes, because most can lead a fairly normal, happy life outside of the stress of field trials.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Thank you for the information Katie. It's more than a little depressing. Hopefully the test will be available commercially soon so that we can at least begin to manage our breedings in a way that will begin to improve on the situation. 

Based on a 30-40% carrier rate and a 4% affected rate, it seems that the actual affected rate in the population is probably much higher than seen in the samples taken. If I understand the inheritance, we would presumably have seen about 2-4 times that rate depending on the likelihood that affected dogs have been bred. 

As you noted, affected dogs are likely to have been removed from the trialing population where many of the samples were taken. From your assessment of the pedigrees involved, do you think that the carrier rate would be lower in the general population than it is in the sample? It sounds like you're saying that the roots go back far enough that the incidence of carriers is approaching ubiquity.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Using the data Katie presented, I’ve computed the expected outcomes based on a couple of assumptions. First random breeding occurred only between carriers, noncarriers—(carrier x carrier, carrier x noncarrier, noncarrier x carrier, and noncarrier x noncarrier). The homozygous affected dogs have been eliminated from the breeding population. Second, the trait is simple recessive. Predominant stud dogs that are carriers have not skewed the data. I would expect 64 per cent of the dogs produced to be clear of the mutated gene—32 per cent of the dogs to carry one copy of the mutated gene and 4 per cent of the dogs to carry two copies of the mutated gene. The only way to get better results would be for people to be aware their stud dog or bitch is a carrier and to breed wisely. 

Jack


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## 2Blackdogs! (Apr 6, 2006)

Jack- Can you detail the math used to reach the 4% conclusion? I would love to better understand that. Seeing that carrier rate did not surprise me, but what always has been a mystery to me and I know some others is why there are so few obviuosly afflicted dogs.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Having a carrier, and an affected dog both, from completely different bloodlines I was not suprised to see such high results. 

I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of affected dogs out there that the owners don't know that they are affected. I train back and forth between the two dogs, and the only time it has been an issue with my affected dog during training was on a day that was warm to start with. My carrier dog had "been stupid" so I put him away and worked with The affected dog longer then normal. It was the first time, and I just thought she had overheated. It wasn't until I carried her from a pheasent field after 40 mintues that I thought something was wrong. I hadn't heard of EIC so I thought she was out of shape or not drinking enough.

People with dogs that they do not push into the upper levels would probably never bring it out in an affected dog during training. And if they don't hunt upland they would never see it. I use My affected dog to duck hunt with no problems.

You have probably seen an affected dog, just not under enough stress to bring out the problem. I plan on still running my dog in NAHRA intermediate this spring, and will likely run her for her MHR in the fall if she is ready, though I am abandoning the time table I had as a goal. No reason to push this summer if I can't breed her next fall.


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## DSO (Dec 27, 2005)

I'm sure this has been asked before but can a person send in blood now and get his/her dog checked or do we have to wait for a certified test? I sent in blood from my YLM and just received an e-mail from the U of M stating he was clear. How long before a test is available to the public?


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

limiman12 said:


> Having a carrier, and an affected dog both, from completely different bloodlines I was not suprised to see such high results.
> 
> I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of affected dogs out there that the owners don't know that they are affected. I train back and forth between the two dogs, and the only time it has been an issue with my affected dog during training was on a day that was warm to start with. My carrier dog had "been stupid" so I put him away and worked with The affected dog longer then normal. It was the first time, and I just thought she had overheated. It wasn't until I carried her from a pheasent field after 40 mintues that I thought something was wrong. I hadn't heard of EIC so I thought she was out of shape or not drinking enough.
> 
> People with dogs that they do not push into the upper levels would probably never bring it out in an affected dog during training. And if they don't hunt upland they would never see it. I use My affected dog to duck hunt with no problems.


I am not sure but where dogs that carry 2 copies of the mutation and don't exhibit the EIC phenotype the penetrance of the mutation might be variable or incomplete. A gene that exhibits 80% penetrance is seen in 80% of the affected. An example would be an adult onset disease where affected individuals don't always have the disease expressed.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I would like to THANK Katie and her partner for all of their hard work on this project this summer. I'm sure it was not an easy task .

We all hope that we will be seeing you both a lot next year doing the same thing for the betterment of our breed!!!!

THANK YOU!!!!


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Katie Minor said:


> And this mutation has been around a long time. Probably pre-dating the split of the retrieving breeds.


For years I assumed the condition was predominantly found in the US field lines. As previously mentioned in another thread, I nearly fell over when found in show lines, in our country. 

Thanks so much for posting Katie. When will the test be available to the public?


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

The test is in the works to be patented. We've sent in the initial paperwork. I can't give an exact time table as there is much to be sorted out still as far as who is going to end up providing the test. I'll keep you posted.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Katie Minor said:


> I'll keep you posted.


Great. 

A semi retired veterinary surgeon, as well as the affected (through the research study) breeder are keen to educate Australians on this disease.


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## Teri (Jun 25, 2003)

I also think it will be surprising and frightening the extent of EIC carriers once the test is common place, well beyond the high profile field lines most folks know about. One of my obedience friends ( who is also a vet) has an EIC dog out of total conformation lines; his sire is the Lean Mac of the conformation world. 

Teri


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

Just received my results yesterday and FC Candlewood's Meet Joe Black is clear of the EIC mutation. Meaning dog has two copies of what we believe to be the normal gene
He is now OFA Excellent, OFA normal elbows, Cerf'd, and on the CNM Whitelist and EIC clear
trog


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

trog said:


> Just received my results yesterday and FC Candlewood's Meet Joe Black is clear of the EIC mutation. Meaning dog has two copies of what we believe to be the normal gene
> He is now OFA Excellent, OFA normal elbows, Cerf'd, and on the CNM Whitelist and EIC clear
> trog


Terry

Thank you for posting this! Great news!


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Andy Carlson said:


> The three that I had sent in blood samples early in the study, came back as being clear. Still waiting on the results for the puppy.
> 
> Andy


 
Just got the results for the puppy and Ticket is clear!!

Andy


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

"Buttlet" is clear also.......

FOM


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## taylormade (Mar 2, 2006)

Since test is not yet available to the public, is the U of MN still accepting samples?

Vickie


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I believe if you have a dog that is out of lines they have not seen yet they will still take samples.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

My choco "Maggie" is clear!


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## Bill Schuna (Mar 11, 2004)

My girl is "clear", but will submit another sample when the "official" test is available just to make it official.

Bill


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Bill Schuna said:


> My girl is "clear", but will submit another sample when the "official" test is available just to make it official.
> 
> Bill


Ditto on my girl, avatar dog.


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Hi everyone,
As of today, we are no longer accepting Field Trial Labradors for the research portion of our study. We are in negotiation to make our test publicly available. It has not yet been decided if the test will remain in house or not, but we are hoping (not guaranteeing) to have it available by the 1st of the year, or shortly thereafter (barring any complications). As more information becomes available, I will let you know.
Katie


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Katie,

Thanks for the update! Look foward to the official test...

FOM


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Katie, thanks a lot for what you and the team there at the U of Minn have done!


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

To lay fear to rest, if you have already discussed submission with me and have been approved to send a sample, it will get tested.
Katie


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Let me add my thanks and that of Labradors to the work from the team at U of MN and U of Sask.

An official test will be a valuable tool for breeding better Labs.


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

Because I was in discussion with Katie prior to the test closing...I had the opportunity to test my entire litter a couple of weeks ago. I sent in each puppies dew claws in individual marked baggies (they are indentified via collar colors) and Katie sent an e-mail stating it was easy to test via that method.
These pupsare not permanently ID'd yet, as this info was more to put my mind at ease until the test becomes official. But I don't see why we couldn't microchip/do dew claws as a testing method when the test becomes official.
It's good news as far as I'm concerned...
Trying to do my part.
Marcy


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Katie thanks for all your hard work. I was glad to receive the news that Cody Cut A Lean Grade-Grady was free from any EIC genes! 
CB


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Dominator's Windjammer is CLEAR. 

(FC-AFC RSK's Smooth Sailing x CFC Bayer's Abigail Quiver Creek)


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## Anthony Petrozza (Jan 4, 2005)

When will the test be available?


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

TDK'S DUSTY GUNSLINGER is clear
(Downtown Dusty Brown X TDK's Putting for Birdie)


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Want to thank Katie et al for making the test available.The results confirmed that our Purdy has 2 of the genes.She can hunt all day,just not play in the doggy games even though she can mark and do most blinds.She comes from a most popular trial line.

Jeff G


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## MJT1977 (Jul 20, 2005)

I have a question. Has anyone had a choco tested with the new test and would you mind sharing the results?? If that is not to much. The U of M has stated it is in Chocos but I haven't seen anyone post it yet.

Marty


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

MJT1977 said:


> I have a question. Has anyone had a choco tested with the new test and would you mind sharing the results?? If that is not to much. The U of M has stated it is in Chocos but I haven't seen anyone post it yet.
> 
> Marty


I'm pretty sure a dog's color has no effect on its EIC status.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Do a search....I posed the question if anyone had seen a chocolate have an EIC episode. No one seen it but I was told color made no diffrence. Still waiting for a confirmed Choc. EIC victim.

John
________
Mazda 757 specifications


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## kremerd (May 23, 2007)

My male had the genes from both parents. I think he was one of the first anyone I knew had ever heard about, since when he first started with the problem he was approx. 1 1/2 yrs of age. No one I knew in the field trial sport had seen or heard about it until maybe 8 months after his episodes started[ a dog from NC] that had the problem. My dog died unexpectedly at age 9 approx. 2 yrs ago. Imune system was messed up did not notice any problem til the first day and was dead within 1 week. Got very anemic. Looked and acted like picture of health until one morning did not seem like self and immediately took to vet, dead within 1 week. Age 9,


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

While I can't say which chocolate labs have collapsed, I can say that the breakdown of affected dogs is 50-50 male female, with coat color represented proportionally to the normal distribution of colors seen in trial/show lines. I checked for the chromosomal location of the coat color genes, and from what I could tell, the genes that code for coat color are not on the same chromosome as the gene that contains the EIC mutation (meaning, they are inherited randomly in relation to each other).


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## MJT1977 (Jul 20, 2005)

Drakehaven, I did find your post but like you said no one answered with a confirmed test result. 

Charles, I knew it wasn't coat color related however was inquiring more into the Chocolate "lines" more than specific chocolate coat color chromosomes.

Marty


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Looking forward to the test becoming available to the public. Soon?? Soon? Soon????

40% carrier rate- god damm!!!!!!


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Any updates?


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Now to show just how dumb I am. What is EIC and CNM?? I am new to the retriever world and would like to educate myself on the important health stuff. Thanks.


Cory


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

CNM - Centronuclear Myopathy. You can see detailed information on the disease, the test, and a database of dogs that have tested clear at http://www.labradorcnm.com/

EIC - Exercise Induced Collapse. You can read a good article at http://www.thelabradorclub.com/library/eicstudy.html.
A test has been developed and a number of dogs have been tested during the research project. However, the final, commercial test is not yet available.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Any updates?



Regarding release of test to the public? Few more months apparently.

Wondering also, when dogs come back as carriers, of PRA, CNM and/or EIC, if they are discarded as sires/dams, will say, retinal dysplasia become more common? Pick your poison??


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Thanks for the info and the educating my retriever ignorance on EIC and CNM.

Cory


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Wondering also, when dogs come back as carriers, of PRA, CNM and/or EIC, if they are discarded as sires/dams, will say, retinal dysplasia become more common? Pick your poison??[/QUOTE]

Hopefully, they will also come up with a test for RD!

Dr. Aguirre, veterinary ophthalmologist of international repute, (one of the developers of the prcd-PRA test) has stated: It is always important to keep in mind that you are breeding dogs, and not test results when dealing with DNA-based testing. Dogs of exceptional merit that contribute to the breed, genetic diversity and gene pool of the breed should be bred, and the test results used only to select the appropriate mate. The aim is never to produce an affected dog, and, at the same time, maintain the genetic diversity of the breed."


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Ok so as we get closer to figuring this out.... Is the General consensus, assuming all other required tests have been met, a responsible breeder should never breed a dog (a female in my case) that has at least one mutated gene and has displayed the symptoms? What is the opinion on this? My guess is the jury is still out on this. Or have I missed the conclusion? Can anyone lay-out the guidelines here?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> Ok so as we get closer to figuring this out.... Is the General consensus, assuming all other required tests have been met, a responsible breeder should never breed a dog (a female in my case) that has at least one mutated gene and has displayed the symptoms? What is the opinion on this? My guess is the jury is still out on this. Or have I missed the conclusion? Can anyone lay-out the guidelines here?


Firstly, the conclusions of the testing suggest (or are definitive depending on who you talk to) that EIC is an inherited disorder. It is inherited as a autosomal recessive (layman's terms, simple recessive). So if your dog has only one gene (takes two to tango) it should NOT be symptomatic. 

If your dog is symptomatic, then genetically is should have TWO of the genes. If your dog is AFFECTED (has two genes, but may or may not exhibit symptoms) I really doubt anyone is going to recommend breeding.

Based on your statement, either the test result is wrong, or your dog is NOT symptomatic for EIC.

WRL


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

WRL said:


> Firstly, the conclusions of the testing suggest (or are definitive depending on who you talk to) that EIC is an inherited disorder. It is inherited as a autosomal recessive (layman's terms, simple recessive). So if your dog has only one gene (takes two to tango) it should NOT be symptomatic.
> ****
> IF the gene is determined to be a simple, autosomal recessive, this would be totally correct.
> ====
> ...


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

This EIC thing affects dogs in different ways. Some show signs more and some hardly show at all. Will be interesting to see how it pans out...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Basenji breeders, some years back, discovered this very same occurrence. In discarding even carriers of a serious genetic disorder, they found themselves left with an even more serious genetic disorder (leading them to ask the AKC to re-open the stud books to import new dogs from Africa).


I think the message to be learned from the Basenji catastrophe is not to discard the carriers from the breeding pool, and that EIC will probably be handled just like the CNM breeding guidelines, don't breed carriers to each other or affecteds.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

This new info should be handled just like any breeding. Will the breeding contribute to the overall good of the breed. Selecting for one trait only is always bad. So discarding ALL carriers is bad breeding. It does give breeders help in eliminating potential sires or dams.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> WRL said:
> 
> 
> > Firstly, the conclusions of the testing suggest (or are definitive depending on who you talk to) that EIC is an inherited disorder. It is inherited as a autosomal recessive (layman's terms, simple recessive). So if your dog has only one gene (takes two to tango) it should NOT be symptomatic.
> ...


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Well now this is becoming clear as mud. I have a EIC symptomatic female, who has never been tested ,with lots of talent and a mediocre trainer. She has one of the nicest personalities. I have had several people who I consider very informed, inquire about a pup from her. I would get all the required testing before breeding, But this EIC is one big question mark!


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> Well now this is becoming clear as mud. I have a EIC symptomatic female, who has never been tested ,with lots of talent and a mediocre trainer. She has one of the nicest personalities. I have had several people who I consider very informed, inquire about a pup from her. I would get all the required testing before breeding, But this EIC is one big question mark!



I guess this would be my question to you.

How are you going to feel if she's in the middle of whelping puppies and suffers an episode which leads to her death?

OK, she survives the whelping process and then you have to tell the puppy owners she is affected with EIC and you end up with 3/4 of the puppies still at your house at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 6 months?

Puppy buyers are very funny sometimes. You'll think they are SOOO interested but one little thing like being a carrier for EIC can have you end up with puppies unspoken for. Then what?

WRL


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Breeding an effected dog to another dog that is hopefully tested to produce a litter of carriers is not a great idea in my opinion, especially when there are so many known non-carriers who can really contribute to the gene pool.


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Kyle Bertram said:


> Well now this is becoming clear as mud. I have a EIC symptomatic female, who has never been tested ,with lots of talent and a mediocre trainer. She has one of the nicest personalities. I have had several people who I consider very informed, inquire about a pup from her. I would get all the required testing before breeding, But this EIC is one big question mark!


So are you willing to risk your dogs life so your buddies can have a puppy? I sure wouldn't. I bred a symptomatic dog in the 80's, before EIC had a name and before anyone thought it was hereditary. We bred to a non-symptomatic male, we ended up having several pups with EIC (no surprise now). Talk about trying to explain what is going on when a puppy owner calls in a panic that their dog is 'dying'. My advice? Do not breed symptomatic dogs, there are literally thousands of dogs out there with the 'nicest personalities'. No offense, enjoy your girl but get her spayed. It will solve all the 'girlie' problems too.

Happy Holiday Regards

Kris


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Misty Marsh said:


> Breeding an effected dog to another dog that is hopefully tested to produce a litter of carriers is not a great idea in my opinion, especially when there are so many known non-carriers who can really contribute to the gene pool.


Where are all these "known" non-carriers? Until the pending EIC test proves to be reliable and accurate and available, we only have the preliminary research test results. Nobody knows all of those results. We've all heard the estimate that 40% of field labs could be affected or carriers. I personally know of a many top many top dogs that have been tentatively diagnosed as carriers or whose offspring are carriers. If a dog hasn't been tested he is unknown. Until this test becomes official and many more dogs are tested, many litters will be a gamble-that's reality!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I know from the preliminary testing FC Joe (LeanMac and Bebe) was negative for EIC by Terry's post, and recently found out brothers FC/AFC Rooster and FC Razz are also negative, and a son by my Abe bitch and Rooster are not carriers. I know of a LeanMac son that tested negative produced a son that tested as a carrier so must be by the bitch's bloodline that hasn't been noted by others.


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Where are all these "known" non-carriers? Until the pending EIC test proves to be reliable and accurate and available, we only have the preliminary research test results. Nobody knows all of those results. We've all heard the estimate that 40% of field labs could be affected or carriers. I personally know of a many top many top dogs that have been tentatively diagnosed as carriers or whose offspring are carriers. If a dog hasn't been tested he is unknown. Until this test becomes official and many more dogs are tested, many litters will be a gamble-that's reality!


Very Well Said, Dennis !
I shudder to think what it would do to our gene pool if Carriers are culled and the verified "official" test actually shows as much as 40% carriers or affected. I have to be so bold as to say, that there would NEVER be another dog like Lean Mac if that happened. Not to say that even if it didn't happen that there might be another dog like Lean Mac.
But I believe all of us that breed Labs like to think, "Maybe someday, I will breed a dog that does as well as Maxx has, as a competitor and sire."

Marty


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Where are all these "known" non-carriers? Until the pending EIC test proves to be reliable and accurate and available, we only have the preliminary research test results. Nobody knows all of those results. We've all heard the estimate that 40% of field labs could be affected or carriers. I personally know of a many top many top dogs that have been tentatively diagnosed as carriers or whose offspring are carriers. If a dog hasn't been tested he is unknown. Until this test becomes official and many more dogs are tested, many litters will be a gamble-that's reality!


I agree with both of you.

A question for the original poster is......how do you KNOW your dog is affected without being tested? That is the first thing needed to be found out.

If she is IN FACT affected, then no...I don't think (and 99.9 % of the other folks out there) are also not going to think she should be bred.

Frankly, I think the 40% carriers is way too high. Keep in mind, they ASKED for affected (or believed to be affected) dogs to send in samples. Then they tested the parents of the affected dogs.

I believe that when the test is proved reliable, and offered to the general market, we will see a MUCH MUCH lower carrier percentage. I think the percentages are skewed a bit. 

I'd like to know how many TOTAL samples were tested. Until you get into the tens of thousands, its unlikely we will know a TRUE percentage of carriers out there.

WRL


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Very true Dennis! I guess I was just thinking that breeding a effected dog and thus a litter of carriers is crazy when there are dog's with atleast preliminary tests (not published I know) out there, and better "gambles" are avialble.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

WRL said:


> Frankly, I think the 40% carriers is way too high. Keep in mind, they ASKED for affected (or believed to be affected) dogs to send in samples. Then they tested the parents of the affected dogs.



In the most recent research testing phase of the study, samples were collected from field trial dogs at trials. There was NO request for affected during this phase. I know that I personally distrubuted kits on behalf of the study to about 90 dogs at the Canadian National. Others samles were taken from dogs at trials in the mid west US and western Canada. As many as 500 might have been involved but I don't have any inside information. Unfortunately, based on preliminary results and some of the lines involved, I don't find the estimate of 40% as too high.

Dennis


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Well maybe Katie can post up with numbers of samples.

It would be interesting to see if there have been 500 samples sent in or 1000 or 10k. I believe that if the number is under say 1000 the 40% is skewed too high for the "general" population. If 10k have been sent it, then the 40% number is more likely to be closer to accurate.

I realize they sampled dogs at some FTs and at the Canadian Nat'l. But still, HOW MANY samples have been sent in? Due to a "regional" impact of popular dogs, a "significant" sire within a region could skew percentages.

I personally HOPE the test is accurate and that the over-all percentage will come down. Only time with tell on both accounts.

WRL


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Where are all these "known" non-carriers? Until the pending EIC test proves to be reliable and accurate and available, we only have the preliminary research test results.


Good point. It is only Level I research at this time. And what's disturbing is that there are other breeds described in the literature with an exercise induced collapse that has not been addressed or looked at. It happens with border collies in agility. I was wanting to find out the location of the alleged DNA mutation, and I guess I'll have to wait for the articles to be published.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I talked to Katie this afternoon. She clarified some things for me. It is a single gene trait where two alleles at the locus contain two copies of the mutation to be affected. These aren't a marker but the actual gene . The mutation can be present and not affect the dog, but levels of excitement can trigger the dog to express the gene. She told me of incidents where dogs didn't exhibit the symptom until a level of excitement brought about the collapse. It has been brought on by fun bumpers, grandchildren visiting, etc. So each dog is triggered by a level of excitement that causes the rear legs to stiffen or give out.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> It is a single gene trait where two alleles at the locus contain two copies of the mutation to be affected. These aren't a marker but the actual gene . *The mutation can be present and not affect the dog, but levels of excitement can trigger the dog to express the gene. *She told me of incidents where dogs didn't exhibit the symptom until a level of excitement brought about the collapse.


Richard, is she saying a dog with one copy (carrier) can manifest the symptoms? Just making sure.


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Wondering also, when dogs come back as carriers, of PRA, CNM and/or EIC, if they are discarded as sires/dams, will say, retinal dysplasia become more common? Pick your poison??


Hopefully, they will also come up with a test for RD!

Dr. Aguirre, veterinary ophthalmologist of international repute, (one of the developers of the prcd-PRA test) has stated: It is always important to keep in mind that you are breeding dogs, and not test results when dealing with DNA-based testing. Dogs of exceptional merit that contribute to the breed, genetic diversity and gene pool of the breed should be bred, and the test results used only to select the appropriate mate. The aim is never to produce an affected dog, and, at the same time, maintain the genetic diversity of the breed."[/QUOTE]

Indeedie!!! 

Closed gene pools, founder effect, popular sire syndrome, all give me a headache!!!!

EIC, as mentioned by the researchers in the past, has been around for decades.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

WRL said:


> Gerry Clinchy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I do believe in genetic diversity. But the bottom line as a breeder, is which "devil you want to dance with".
> ...


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Regarding dogs used to generate the carrier rate that we observed:
469 dogs were sampled at field trials throughout Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, and Canada (samples collected by collaborators)

We went on the open event day and went truck to truck, asking to sample every dog on every truck. We did not expect to see EIC affected dogs participating, and did not ask specifically for collapsing dogs.

These dogs came from these states/provinces
AB	AL	AR	AZ	BC	CA	CO	FL	GA	IA	IL	KS	LA	MB	MD	MI	MN MS	MT	NC	ND	NE	NH	NJ	NM	OK	ON	PA	SC	SD	SK	TN	TX	VA	WI


We found
264	clear 56%
181	carriers 38%
24	affected 5% 
469

We are not saying this is the definitive Labrador population rate. We are saying that among the dogs that we sampled, this was the frequency observed. You cannot use samples that were mailed in, in general, to approximate a carrier rate, as it will invariably be skewed high. This is because those that are concerned with whatever condition you are studying, will be more likely to send in samples.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> WRL said:
> 
> 
> > *** Yup ... that's what it comes down to: which devil do you want to dance with?
> ...


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> I know from the preliminary testing FC Joe (LeanMac and Bebe) was negative for EIC by Terry's post, and recently found out brothers FC/AFC Rooster and FC Razz are also negative, and a son by my Abe bitch and Rooster are not carriers. I know of a LeanMac son that tested negative produced a son that tested as a carrier so must be by the bitch's bloodline that hasn't been noted by others.


Our FC Izzy is also EIC clear per the U's study. Izzy is a littermate to Joe, Razz and Rooster.

However, our MeMe (who is a full sister to Izzy, Joe, Razz and Rooster from the first breeding of Maxx and BeBe) is an EIC carrier per the U's study.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

2 of my 5 dogs tested carriers. 40% (Didn't suspect it of 1 of the 2, but could have had it with one of the clear ones. Posted 'em before.)


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> I know from the preliminary testing FC Joe (LeanMac and Bebe) was negative for EIC by Terry's post, and recently found out brothers FC/AFC Rooster and FC Razz are also negative, and a son by my Abe bitch and Rooster are not carriers. I know of a LeanMac son that tested negative produced a son that tested as a carrier so must be by the bitch's bloodline that hasn't been noted by others.





> Our FC Izzy is also EIC clear per the U's study. Izzy is a littermate to Joe, Razz and Rooster.
> 
> However, our MeMe (who is a full sister to Izzy, Joe, Razz and Rooster from the first breeding of Maxx and BeBe) is an EIC carrier per the U's study.


So ya'll are saying Lean Mac was clear and not a carrier for EIC.
And if Lean Mac wasn't a carrier, then MeMe got the gene from BeBe's line?

Sorry just trying to figure out what lines are producing this +/-40% carrier or affected status.
Tim


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Pond River Kennels said:


> Sorry just trying to figure out what lines are producing this +/-40% carrier or affected status.
> Tim


Having fun......yet? 

I like so many others are waiting for the DNA test to be released to the public. We (as in the whole labrador breed) have gone through PRA and CNM initial ...dramas. In Australia, for example PRA carriers are routinely displayed on kennel sites. No big deal anymore. As everyone tests. 

Good things come to those who wait. 

Wonder if inbreeding/line breeding will become more popular, as DNA tests further expand?


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

Actually Julie, with some of the responses I have received from people that have affected or carriers via the test, you can see the common links in the lineage. And it does somewhat prove that the percentage rate could be that high and also backup rumors, if you will, that have been told to me before the test.

No headache here, regards,
Tim


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Listing clear prodigy has little value towards determining who is carrying the EIC gene. Until the test becomes prooven/certifiable/official then everything is suspect for accuracy. I can understand folks hesitancy to share some of the information until after the test becomes available.

I would appreciate, at that time, anyone willing to share facts that could assist me in becoming more educated. HPW


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Pond River Kennels said:


> So ya'll are saying Lean Mac was clear and not a carrier for EIC.
> And if Lean Mac wasn't a carrier, then MeMe got the gene from BeBe's line?
> 
> Sorry just trying to figure out what lines are producing this +/-40% carrier or affected status.


The original post asked for any preliminary results of the study. No one is stating anything further until the study is completed and reviewed.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Pond River Kennels said:


> No headache here, regards,
> Tim


Your lucky, for (an insane) interest, I have been researching through pedigrees trying to find original carriers. Not that it will make one ounce of difference, when the test becomes public.


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

Just thought I would repost the link to my dog having an EIC collapse, just so folks would not forget how bad it is.

www.vidilife.com/reloc.cfm?cryp=010-03A99271-B9F3-4BF6-BC9D-B


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes, it is bad...that is why everyone should be careful in their breeding practices...that does not necessarily mean that all carriers should be neutered and put out to pasture. 

It means that with the new testing, one will know for sure that puppies produced will not be affected/afflicted with the disorder...it also gives the buyer the ability to know that their pup will not collapse at the time the pup is purchased.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

junbe said:


> The only way to get better results would be for people to be aware their stud dog or bitch is a carrier and to breed wisely.
> 
> Jack



Well done to stud owners in years gone by, who owned very successful trial sires, who removed their dogs from breeding programs or disclosed concerns to prospective bitch owners.

Money, ego, winning isn't everything, IS IT??? IS IT?


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2008)

I have results on 15 dogs from my kennel, belonging to both me and my clients.

We had two affected, which we already knew were affected.

We had two carriers.

From my results, based on my bitches and who they've been bred to, it's pretty clear which studs are and aren't carriers -- from the ones that I have used as studs.

I know the test isn't complete, but given that it nailed the two that we suspected, I'm pleased with the results and feel they are promising.

It's a very cool puzzle with my 15 dogs, most of whom are related in one way or another...

-Kristie


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

If anyone is interested in the beginnings of a list of results...


Labradata, a free online Labrador site has setup a link to post EIC results that have been sent out so far. You can also report all other test results and awards there. 

http://www.labradata.org/

The University of Minnesota has no affiliation with the website, and will not be monitoring the content of it.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

"Therefore, we are indicating to you what the status of your dog for this candidate causal EIC mutation is on a confidential and research basis only."

I am surprised a list has been instigated. Regardless, any list until the release of the test to the public, could aid in pedigree analysis. 

Are any RTF users, going to add to the data?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Aussie said:


> "Therefore, we are indicating to you what the status of your dog for this candidate causal EIC mutation is on a confidential and research basis only."
> 
> I am surprised a list has been instigated. Regardless, any list until the release of the test to the public, could aid in pedigree analysis.
> 
> Are any RTF users, going to add to the data?



Actually I had started to enter one of my dogs on the database a couple months ago but the info disappeared into cyberspace! I keep meaning to ask what the heck I did wrong.... I'm sure it was operator error! Maybe I'll start w/ my baby who doesnt have much info.


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## carians (Dec 9, 2004)

First, my thanks to Katie and everyone else who has helped in the development of a test to detect the presence of the EIC mutation. It couldn’t happen without the research team's efforts and the dog owners/handlers willing to submit DNA samples. Having a 3 1/2 year old female that showed signs of EIC and having the verification of her having 2 copies of the EIC mutation has me also believing there must be varying degrees of how serious dogs are affected. The other three dogs we tested were clear and we look forward to being able to test the latest additions to our kennel once the actual test is available. 
I can induce a collapse in Misty in less than 25 minutes of fun bumpers while running with the rest of my labs, yet can train without any issues, run hunt test set ups and have pheasant hunted her all day long in cold temperatures and up to 2 hours in temperatures up to 55 degrees. I am thankful for that as pheasant hunting is certainly my passion and she is one of the best dogs I've ever hunted behind. 

Is it possible there will levels of degree to which a dog is affected similar to various degrees of severity of hip dysplasia? 

The good news is that with a test we can in time eliminate or make this a rare occurrence with good breeding practices and that the dogs affected can still maintain some sort of hunting activities as long as the owners are aware of the signs to look for. For me, being able to pheasant hunt Misty when most post have stated this is not recommended or possible has been a huge relief as finding hunting homes for an EIC dog is not an easy task. 

A voluntary data base will certainly help breeders/buyers as long as people participate, but a certificate indicating test results for EIC before breeding/buying will be the best tool we can use. 

Craig Arians
KC Kennels
www.kckennels.com


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Katie Minor said:


> If anyone is interested in the beginnings of a list of results...
> 
> 
> Labradata, a free online Labrador site has setup a link to post EIC results that have been sent out so far. You can also report all other test results and awards there.
> ...


I wanted to bring this back up to the top here since I was able to get my dogs entered these past few days. 

You first need to get entered on the data base as a "Person". It may take a few days to get that onto the website. After your profile is posted, then you may begin to enter your dogs and cert/title info and send in any additional info. I understand it is actually easier for them if we scan our OFA, CNM, etc, certs so they don't have to go into the database and look them up to verify. 

For EIC results, the email that Katie sent can be directly forwarded to the database person or scanned and sent in. 

For those wishing to donate $50 or more (I think that's correct!), your kennel logo/banner will appear at the top of the page on a rotating basis w/ the other sponsors. Anne


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> I wanted to bring this back up to the top here since I was able to get my dogs entered these past few days.
> 
> You first need to get entered on the data base as a "Person". It may take a few days to get that onto the website. After your profile is posted, then you may begin to enter your dogs and cert/title info and send in any additional info. I understand it is actually easier for them if we scan our OFA, CNM, etc, certs so they don't have to go into the database and look them up to verify.
> 
> ...


Windycanyon, I am finding the site not user friendly. But then again I am not terribly educated on the use of computers.

Waiting to hear back how I can add off shore pedigrees.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Aussie said:


> Windycanyon, I am finding the site not user friendly. But then again I am not terribly educated on the use of computers.
> 
> Waiting to hear back how I can add off shore pedigrees.


That's how I was feeling too but my glitch got cleared up. I'll PM you, and give you to a "real" person who is involved w/ the site. Now I don't feel like the Lone Ranger.  Anne


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

My little Berryroam Flood (willowyck henman x berryroam azara) is eic, cnm, optigen clear, got the eic result 24th of dec.;-)

my male was not tested, but will be done, when the test is puplic;-)
as his fullbrother has a collaps sibling, may be a result their????

lg evelyn


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## bandcollector (Oct 9, 2003)

10/20 of the dogs tested for EIC on Labradata are carrier or affected. :shock: It looks like these were all from show lines however.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

bandcollector said:


> 10/20 of the dogs tested for EIC on Labradata are carrier or affected. :shock: It looks like these were all from show lines however.


If you're talking about Labradata.org, yes--- it seems as though there are only a handful of us willing to share our results so far!  And no, not every dog listed there is from show lines---- I've got blended lines, field lines, and up to 7/8 show lines now and I know of at least another that is blended and possibly heavier to the field lines that is a carrier. The thing is, many of us already are aware of the popular field lines that carry the gene. Since it hasn't been seen in the show lines w/ much frequency at all (possibly because the dogs from show lines aren't worked as hard!), it's extra important that folks step up and share their results so we can make some sensible breeding decisions. 

I will handle EIC just like everything else-- assume the dog to be a risk if not tested for it. I have no problem w/ a dog that is a carrier-- just put it w/ a Clear.


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

http://www.labradata.org/

I can´t find any dog!!

can anybody tell me the way???

thanks lg evelyn


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

_Evelyn_ said:


> http://www.labradata.org/
> 
> I can´t find any dog!!
> 
> ...


Get into the database, hit reports. Click on EIC (or CNM or whatever you want) and all the dogs whose owners have entered info will come up w/ all the results.


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

found the list.

I would like a list like chessi people did, online, and just a lot of dogs, not a handful

lg evelyn


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

_Evelyn_ said:


> found the list.
> 
> I would like a list like chessi people did, online, and just a lot of dogs, not a handful
> 
> lg evelyn


Evelyn, 

Give it a chance--- this Labradata is very new and it's a heck of alot harder to reach all the lab folks than it is the Chessie folks. And remember, until all the research is reviewed, the EIC test isn't official, so I have a feeling many folks are sitting on their results in hopes that things will change (like the first PRA test).


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

how sure are you, that the test works

somekind like optigens 99,95%

Is any affected dog in germany really collapsing.

is that true that some carrier tested dogs also have collapses, and are all siblings of affected dogs also carrier????

because for me it looks like the optigentest, when it was freshly at the market

and there was false negativs and false positive tested dogs.

I would wish that the test is correct, but I am just asking

lg evelyn


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

That's a question for Katie Minor (U of MN). I think she's pretty sure. Do a search.... 

Btw, she told me privately that she felt the commercial test would be out in a couple months. 

I've not seen a dog collapse personally but have met enough folks who have to be convinced that it's not something I want to produce if I can prevent it.


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## 2Blackdogs! (Apr 6, 2006)

I do not like how that data base puts so much personal info into a public space. That is why I would not put data into it.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

2Blackdogs! said:


> I do not like how that data base puts so much personal info into a public space. That is why I would not put data into it.


LIKE WHAT? I don't recall entering anything terribly personal there.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Katie Minor said:


> If anyone is interested in the beginnings of a list of results...
> 
> 
> Labradata, a free online Labrador site has setup a link to post EIC results that have been sent out so far. You can also report all other test results and awards there.
> ...


Although I'm very pleased with the development of the test, I am sorry to hear that there will not be database that automatically includes results of clear dogs (and carriers with owner permission)...

The labradata site is too cumbersome for widespread use IMO...I can't believe they expect users to scan registration forms before submitting results...there has to be a better way.


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> That's a question for Katie Minor (U of MN). I think she's pretty sure. Do a search....
> 
> Btw, she told me privately that she felt the commercial test would be out in a couple months.
> 
> I've not seen a dog collapse personally but have met enough folks who have to be convinced that it's not something I want to produce if I can prevent it.


What is Katie Minor's position in regard to the research project?


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Chad Baker said:


> Katie thanks for all your hard work. I was glad to receive the news that Cody Cut A Lean Grade-Grady was free from any EIC genes!
> CB


And now he is FC/AFC too!


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> Good point. It is only Level I research at this time. And what's disturbing is that there are other breeds described in the literature with an exercise induced collapse that has not been addressed or looked at. It happens with border collies in agility. I was wanting to find out the location of the alleged DNA mutation, and I guess I'll have to wait for the articles to be published.


Susan, Please describe what is meant by "level I research".

Anyone, 

Can anyone confirm the status of the study? Has it been published? Has it gone through peer review? For months now it has been stated that the test will be available to the public soon. There was also a statement that a patent application was about to be submitted. Has that been done?

Just trying to get a handle on the true status of the test. 

Thanks,
Frank


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

OK, are there any mathletes in the crowd? Cummon... I can't be the only geek on the forum. Someone on another forum posted the math for calculating the probabilities based on the results so far. I was glad she did, because I had been trying to explain the way to do it over the phone to someone else. 

If 40% of the tested dogs are carriers and affected, there will still be a low number of affecteds. The frequency of dogs with various gene combinations is represented by the binomial equation that we learned in high school algebra applied to gene frequencies. Remember 

a(squared) + 2ab + b(squared) = 1

a(squared) represents a dog that has two normal alleles, and b(squared) represents an affected dog with two EIC alleles, Carriers can get the affected gene from either parent, so they are represented by 2ab. 

If carriers and affecteds total 40%, then their frequency in the population is 0.4 and the frequency of normals is 1-0.4 = 0.6. Therefore a(squared) is 0.6. "a" represents the frequency of the normal gene in the population and is the square root of 6 = .77. If the frequency of the normal gene is .77, then the frequency of the EIC gene (b) is 1-.77 = .23 and the frequency of affecteds will be b(squared) or .05. 

So 5% of the dogs in a population with a carrier plus affected percentage of 40% will be affected. The rest will be carriers and unaffected. That helps to explain why we have not seen more affected dogs, but the gene is still widely spread through the breed.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Bayou Magic said:


> Susan, Please describe what is meant by "level I research".
> 
> Anyone,
> 
> ...


It's level 1 because the paper hasn't been published or peer review gone through. The results that people have gotten clearly state that it's level 1 research results. I don't believe that the paper has been accepted for publication or if it has, it was done in the past month. Russ from California seems to think that it was recently accepted. I have not looked for a patent application.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

nimloth said:


> OK, are there any mathletes in the crowd? Cummon... I can't be the only geek on the forum. Someone on another forum posted the math for calculating the probabilities based on the results so far. I was glad she did, because I had been trying to explain the way to do it over the phone to someone else.
> 
> If 40% of the tested dogs are carriers and affected, there will still be a low number of affecteds. The frequency of dogs with various gene combinations is represented by the binomial equation that we learned in high school algebra applied to gene frequencies. Remember
> 
> ...


Ignoring the effect of breeding affected dogs, the probability of affected pups from random breedings, assuming 40% of all Labs are carriers, would be 0.4 * 0.4 * 0.25 or 4%. The probability that a random breeding to a known carrier (e.g. popular stud) will produce an affected pup would be 1.0 * 0.4 * 0.25, or 10%. Actual results would be higher since EIC affected dogs are presumably being bred almost as often as non-affected dogs. I believe that Katie had indicated in a prior post that over 4% of the dogs tested in the study (which was biased towards the selection of competitive dogs) were actually EIC affected and that the proportion of carriers was actually greater than 40%.


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> It's level 1 because the paper hasn't been published or peer review gone through. The results that people have gotten clearly state that it's level 1 research results. I don't believe that the paper has been accepted for publication or if it has, it was done in the past month. Russ from California seems to think that it was recently accepted. I have not looked for a patent application.


Thanks for the quick response. Is it safe to assume that the test will not be available to the public until publication and peer review are complete?

Frank


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Please see http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/Faculty_Biographies/Mickelson/lab/eic/home.html for more information.

There is a "contact" button to contact the researchers directly.

There are also many definitive statements about the genetics of EIC and their research linked to this page that have not changed for at least 6 months.

IF you click on the link at the top of the page called "Mickelson Canine And Equine Genetics Laboratory" you can take a look at all the previous research and publications that have come from this team of researchers. Their EIC research is "in review" as far as I know. 

This notion being alluded to in many EIC threads that their research and the test is somehow wrong and flawed is not based on facts. The statements from these researchers have been consistent for at least a year. Patience folks, patience.


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

From the correspondence I have had with folks at UM the test is no more the a month from launch. Maybe if someone from UM see this thread they can elaborate on what few things they are finalizing in the coming couple weeks.


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

YardleyLabs said:


> I believe that Katie had indicated in a prior post that over 4% of the dogs tested in the study (which was biased towards the selection of competitive dogs) were actually EIC affected and that the proportion of carriers was actually greater than 40%.


The last communication I had with Katie, which included both the field samples (which she gave % for in a prior post) and show samples collected at the LRC National Specialty show, the information was that carrier AND affected together represented 40% of the results. That is the figure I used in my math. Since that calculates out to give 5% affected and Katie says it is "over 4%", I think the math is right on. Glad to know you are a fellow geek, Jeff.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Bayou Magic said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Is it safe to assume that the test will not be available to the public until publication and peer review are complete?
> 
> Frank


It is my understanding that:

The research has been peer reviewed
The manuscript has been accepted for journal publication
OFA will be hosting the results (and the researchers encourage all results: clear, carrier, and affected to report)
The test should go live within about 2-4 wks


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks Jeff!!!


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

jeff t. said:


> It is my understanding that:
> 
> The research has been peer reviewed
> The manuscript has been accepted for journal publication
> ...


Jeff,

Thanks so much for the update. Did this information come from the EIC site? I've looked for it, but could not find it.

Thanks again,
Frank


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## ASH (Jun 9, 2005)

jeff t. said:


> It is my understanding that:
> 
> The research has been peer reviewed
> The manuscript has been accepted for journal publication
> ...


Do you know if the test will be in kits like CNM or just sending blood samples?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

ASH said:


> Do you know if the test will be in kits like CNM or just sending blood samples?


It should be swabs, just like CNM.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

I heard it will be blood samples.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

ASH said:


> Do you know if the test will be in kits like CNM or just sending blood samples?


More at this link


http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/Faculty_Biographies/Mickelson/lab/eic/dna.html


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

If that's what they do, it will make it more difficult and expensive for people to do the test. The last samples they took in the field were cheek swabs like CNM. 

I'd like to know why the CNM people can do it, and AKC can DNA my dog with a cheek swab, but what is it about the EIC test, *IF* that's the way the commercially available test comes out, makes it inaccurate?


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Here is what OptiGen has to say about cheek swabs compared to blood samples: http://www.optigen.com/opt9_chkswbconcerns.html
Looks to me like the U of M researchers are just trying to get the most accurate test results possible.


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Henry V said:


> Here is what OptiGen has to say about cheek swabs compared to blood samples: http://www.optigen.com/opt9_chkswbconcerns.html
> Looks to me like the U of M researchers are just trying to get the most accurate test results possible.


All of the reasons listed on Optigen's page are exactly why we would like to do the test from blood samples if at all possible. While we have not had a problem with contamination from other dog or human DNA on the swabs to date, we have quite frequently not been able to get enough cells to perform the test. This drastically slows down turn around time of results, and adds to the cost of performing the test.


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

Katie Minor said:


> All of the reasons listed on Optigen's page are exactly why we would like to do the test from blood samples if at all possible. While we have not had a problem with contamination from other dog or human DNA on the swabs to date, we have quite frequently not been able to get enough cells to perform the test. This drastically slows down turn around time of results, and adds to the cost of performing the test.


If a dog was tested when the U of M used check swap samples gathered at field trials should the dog be retested via blood sample. Lyle


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

Blood is always more accurate when it comes to DNA. However, one of the other factors may be the laboratory facilities. Some are set up to work easily from blood. Some are designed for processing swabs. I use DDC at http://www.vetdnacenter.com for some of my testing and they are set up to use only swabs. Sending blood causes them extra processing time and steps. Perhaps the UMinn lab is arranged to work easily from blood and not from swabs. There are many factors that influence how tests are submitted and processed.


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

> If a dog was tested when the U of M used check swap samples gathered at field trials should the dog be retested via blood sample. Lyle


If there were enough cells on the swab to run the test, then the results are ok. If there weren't, you would have been notified about a retest I suspect ;-)


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Lyle Harne said:


> If a dog was tested when the U of M used check swap samples gathered at field trials should the dog be retested via blood sample. Lyle


I don't believe that results from the swabs gathered earlier will be reportable to the OFA, nor will they have a serialized number associated with the result. If this is not necessary for your dog, then you do not need to re-test.


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

Katie Minor said:


> I don't believe that results from the swabs gathered earlier will be reportable to the OFA, nor will they have a serialized number associated with the result. If this is not necessary for your dog, then you do not need to re-test.


Does that mean, if we sent in blood for our dogs for this test, it *will* be reportable to OFA and *will* have a serialized number associated with the result?


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Montview said:


> Does that mean, if we sent in blood for our dogs for this test, it *will* be reportable to OFA and *will* have a serialized number associated with the result?


I don't think any samples sent in prior to the official release of the test will be reportable. The serialized number will be generated through our diagnostic lab, which has not been involved in the sample logging process yet.


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## Lady Hunter (Mar 13, 2003)

I know that EIC DNA testing is primarily geared toward Labradores, but will other retriever breeds be accepted for the final DNA testing?


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Lady Hunter said:


> I know that EIC DNA testing is primarily geared toward Labradores, but will other retriever breeds be accepted for the final DNA testing?


Any dog can be tested for the mutation once it is up and running. We have found the mutation in Labs, Curlies, and Chessies so far.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Any idea, ballpark, on what the test will run, cost wise to the general public? Hopefully not as much as the PRA test! We have nine dogs. All this testing (yes its worth it) is costing me a fortune. I would like to offer EIC testing for all of our litters as part of the "perks" that the pups come with, like CERF and CNM, but I won't be able to do all of them without having to charge an arm and a leg for the pups if its going to be cost prohibitive.


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

firehouselabs said:


> Any idea, ballpark, on what the test will run, cost wise to the general public? Hopefully not as much as the PRA test! We have nine dogs. All this testing (yes its worth it) is costing me a fortune. I would like to offer EIC testing for all of our litters as part of the "perks" that the pups come with, like CERF and CNM, but I won't be able to do all of them without having to charge an arm and a leg for the pups if its going to be cost prohibitive.


The test is projected to cost $65


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

When the commercial test comes out, will you be able to use the banked DNA samples for those dogs we have already sent in for the research phase? I can't even begin to tell you what a nightmare it was to get blood sent via the local Post Office.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Montview said:


> When the commercial test comes out, will you be able to use the banked DNA samples for those dogs we have already sent in for the research phase? I can't even begin to tell you what a nightmare it was to get blood sent via the local Post Office.


Really? Why? I've shipped blood samples to Optigen twice now and had no problems at all.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Montview said:


> When the commercial test comes out, will you be able to use the banked DNA samples for those dogs we have already sent in for the research phase? I can't even begin to tell you what a nightmare it was to get blood sent via the local Post Office.


Was this because you did it rather than your vet?

I thought vets routinely shipped samples to labs for analysis.


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

jeff t. said:


> Was this because you did it rather than your vet?
> 
> I thought vets routinely shipped samples to labs for analysis.


They do...usually through couriers and not "privately" through the United States Postal Service. Our P.O. in particular was absolutely clueless about how to handle animal blood and after going up the chain of command, it took about 4 hours total out of my day to get 'er done. It also involved a trip to OfficeMax print shop so that they could print out Biologic Waste symbols on bright orange paper because none of the vets in town (our own hospital included) had any stickers on-hand. (sigh) It was an experience I hope to never have to deal with again. There were just many, many things required for USPS shipment of "biologics" that I wasn't aware of up and beyond double-bagging tubes with absorbant material within the first one, etc.

Anyhow...

I know that Optigen holds onto their DNA samples because they've had to test and re-test when a problem was found...they have them banked from years past. Sooo, my thought process was, even if we have to send in our payment, why can't they use the samples we already sent, especially blood?


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Montview said:


> They do...usually through couriers and not "privately" through the United States Postal Service. Our P.O. in particular was absolutely clueless about how to handle animal blood and after going up the chain of command, it took about 4 hours total out of my day to get 'er done. It also involved a trip to OfficeMax print shop so that they could print out Biologic Waste symbols on bright orange paper because none of the vets in town (our own hospital included) had any stickers on-hand. (sigh) It was an experience I hope to never have to deal with again. There were just many, many things required for USPS shipment of "biologics" that I wasn't aware of up and beyond double-bagging tubes with absorbant material within the first one, etc.
> 
> Anyhow...
> 
> I know that Optigen holds onto their DNA samples because they've had to test and re-test when a problem was found...they have them banked from years past. Sooo, my thought process was, even if we have to send in our payment, why can't they use the samples we already sent, especially blood?


I'm looking into this. I'll get back to you when I've got the answer.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Why blood? As I recall it was just a mouth swab which is very easy to mail.

While I'm at it, I'm disappointed to hear that the testing site will not maintain a white list of cleared dogs. If you want folks to be enthusiatic in their support for testing then disclosure (at least clear dogs) is vitally important. I understand what OFA does & I support their work but their policy on disclosure leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to dog owners & pup buyers (i.e., with OFA a user has to declare whether test results can be made public prior to testing even if clear). I would hope & recommend that the testing site would also provide a white list of clear dogs regardless of what is done with OFA since OFA seems so strongly tied to research as opposed to public disclosure.


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

If it is blood, this means you have to take them to the vet. I'm ok with that but on top of the $65 dollars it will wost me another 35 just for the office call. Which it will be worth it. But still...

Is there a way with the kit that we could take the bloodfrom the dogs our self?? Or does a vet have to?


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

LavendersLabs said:


> If it is blood, this means you have to take them to the vet. I'm ok with that but on top of the $65 dollars it will wost me another 35 just for the office call. Which it will be worth it. But still...
> 
> Is there a way with the kit that we could take the bloodfrom the dogs our self?? Or does a vet have to?


If you choose to do the blood draw yourself (which you can), then you will not be able to VPI -veterinarian verified permanent id certify your dog.

Also, with a blood draw, you don't need a kit, you just go to your vet and they will have the necessary tube stocked at all times.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Why blood?


David,

The need for a blood sample is explained earlier in this very thread.

I agree with you regarding the need for a white list. 
Having said that, the primary I had hope for a white list is because such a list exists for CNM. 

Other than CNM, what other veterinary laboratory tests are accompanied by a white list maintained by the folks doing the testing? I can't think of any..perhaps Optigen?

Perhaps it isn't within the mission of the U of MN to maintain such a list. Nevertheless, I had hoped that the results would automatically be reported somewhere. 

Unfortunately it appears that the results will only be reported to individual dog owners and their veterinarians. I believe the owner/veterinarian then has the option of submitting the results to OFA or not.

I believe that many owners will receive their results and will fail to submit the data to OFA even if their dog is clear.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Optigen doesn't maintain a white list either. Tanbrae labs, I believe, started a database for PRA results but not sure how many are submitting to it anymore either. 

I too wish we could just use the cheek swabs. Some vets will offer discounts for blood draws for genetic testing though-- worth asking about.


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

windycanyon said:


> Optigen doesn't maintain a white list either. Tanbrae labs, I believe, started a database for PRA results but not sure how many are submitting to it anymore either.


The Tanbrae site has been down for a while now (I think the domain name lapsed)...it wasn't just a white list, but rather a list of A/non-carriers and a list of B/carriers for both dogs and bitches. I don't think they had a C/affected list.


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