# Pup cigaring "What difference does that make"? - Bill Hillmann



## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

In a 3 part video series on *HOLD* tips
Bill Hillmann discussed (not dissected) just mentioned 'CIGARING' in reference to pups/young dogs.
(As in this isn't his FULL opinion and philosophy on HOLD, just tips)



> (Paraphrase)
> I have people who say "_Oh he holds it like a cigar_".
> What difference does (that) make?
> He's not going to hold a duck or pheasant in such a way that you say, "Oh he's holding it like a cigar".
> ...


I quoted the above for those who may not have time to view the video at the moment.
It's a paraphrase of what he's saying.

His point is well made and there is MORE tips in the video regarding *HOLD*.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Part 2


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

Sounds like Hillary to me....;-)


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Ray Kirkpatrick said:


> Sounds like Hillary to me....;-)











It was the first thing that crossed my mind too lol


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

If he were wearing a pant suit I'd say we got a match......


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## lizard55033 (Mar 10, 2008)

nice video. To me as long as the dog bring it back to me I don't care. Bumper; or duck as long as it is still table worthy


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Me and the late great Howard Niemi have been saying this for years.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about cigar holding unless it is a real cigar!


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## Captzig (Jun 14, 2013)

I wish he had posted this a few months ago...I tried the chin bump method for awhile with no success. What did work for me was the introduction of the healing stick, which I got the idea from Danny Farmer's video. My pup would mouth the bumper excessively until it ended up in the cigar position. One tap from behind, she would have a rock solid hold. 

Every dog is different I guess.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Captzig said:


> I wish he had posted this a few months ago...I tried the chin bump method for awhile with no success. What did work for me was the introduction of the healing stick, which I got the idea from Danny Farmer's video. My pup would mouth the bumper excessively until it ended up in the cigar position. One tap from behind, she would have a rock solid hold.
> 
> Every dog is different I guess.



It's a great point. Most folks don't think about the negative impact 
of smacking the chin while forcefully commanding **HOLD*! *HOLD*! *HOLD*!

*Makes sense to use other stimulation and/or work around it like Bill suggest.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Hillmann is a very good educator... love his calm style.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

.44 magnum said:


> Hillmann is a very good educator... love his calm style.


I soak up his free advice every chance I get. I also pay for it too 

His Youtube Channels that Mrs. Mary started have a BOAT LOAD 
of Early Dog Training Tips and Ideas. Most of which are in his Fundamentals DVD Set.

Having it on Youtube and being able to watch it on my phone is great though 
for a quick reminder of what it's supposed to look and sound like.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

3rd and Final in this Mini-Series;


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

It's not a bad thing when training puppies , but what it can and has caused is a slow pick- up when working with live birds. I replace it every time with my puppies and train them what is expected during walking fetch. 

Keith


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## NBHunter (Apr 24, 2009)

I've got his puppy DVD and really like the early work he does. My pup just turned 4 months old and according to Bilks DVD I think he's at a point where I could start the "Hold" command. These 3 videos were great because my up does a lot of things that are really nice, but "Hold" isn't one of them. That being said, I am just having a hard time starting at this age and find myself wanting to wait until he's older. I think I'm just chicken.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Light me up!


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## Justin Frye (Jul 11, 2014)

Usually my labs "cigaring" was done with a very loose hold. I would swat it out of his mouth and command "fetch" or replace it in his mouth correctly with a light bump on the underside of his chin. I rarely see him "cigar" a bumper now. Looking back at it, I was way too worried about it and how it would effect his later training. As he mentions in the video, your dog isn't going to pick up a bird like a cigar, so who cares.


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## Paul Frey (Jun 15, 2012)

I was one of those "idiots" he spoke about in his video. I now try to keep calm and not worry about it. I have noticed that the older (more mature) she gets, there is less cigar holding.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

KwickLabs said:


> Light me up!


Looks more like 'Piping"vs. Cigaring....LOL


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

swampcollielover said:


> Looks more like 'Piping"vs. Cigaring....LOL


OH NO!!! What do we do for that!?!?!?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.

Keith


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

truthseeker said:


> For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.
> 
> Keith


There is no cigar end to a bird, so what's your point?

What are you suggesting is the details that need attention paid to?


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

truthseeker said:


> For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.
> 
> Keith


Yeah, because Bill Hillmann isn't serious. He's only producing outstanding, competitive dogs year after year.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Dustin D said:


> There is no cigar end to a bird, so what's your point?
> 
> What are you suggesting is the details that need attention paid to?


What happens if the dog is not trained to pick up from the middle is. that the bird has a some what football shape to them. If the dog hits one end they have a tendency to want to regrip. If the bird is still alive and the dog hits on the end. The bird will get away and now the chase is on. For a hunting dog this is fine, but for a trial dog it dose not look good. In FT the truth is, that it's not what the dog can do. It's what they look like when they are doing it.

Keith


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Paul Brown said:


> Yeah, because Bill Hillmann isn't serious. He's only producing outstanding, competitive dogs year after year.


Yes, but I will bet you ten dollars to a donut that he cleans it up during formal training.

Keith


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.
> 
> Keith





"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding _*perfection*_, momentum will depart." ~_*Rex Carr

*_You probably don't agree with this guy, either.........


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

So, for those of us who couldn't care less about playing the games, not a concern? Over the nearly 30 years that I have had a retriever, I can honestly only think of one bird that got away once my dog got to it. He was young and a bit too exuberant and tossed a duck on his run back (missed it on the way back down, duck hit the water and dived, never to be seen again), but that's the only one. My current knucklehead will cigar a dummy now and then, picks the Dokkens up by the head occasionally, but puts the whole real dove in his mouth. Just not a problem. (As far as being hesitant to pick up a real bird, all three have been on the birds like white on rice, and really loved cripples).


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

paul young said:


> "if you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding _*perfection*_, momentum will depart." ~_*rex carr
> 
> *_you probably don't agree with this guy, either.........



truth seeker!!! 









I seek the truth....but only in the mirror....

Sorry man, just joking with ya.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

:shock:

Dis is what happens if you allow cigaring! She snatch it up so fast, she don't know which end is which!


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Or this:


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I feel like one of the biggest mistakes I made as a newbie trainer was picking up my pup from his trainer after FF and CC, going into FTP, and getting into a protracted battle with him about cigaring.  He does not grab birds like that, he does not readjust any more than any other dog I have seen, and birds do not get away. I think all I did was encourage an already hot dog to get hotter when I should have been working on something else. Like steadiness.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Me: "Does that bother you"?
Danny: "What"?
Me: "That my dog is bringing that bumper back by the rope"
DF: "She ever had a problem with birds"?
Me: "Nope"
DF: "Then I wouldn't worry about it".


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Yes, but I will bet you ten dollars to a donut that he cleans it up during formal training.
> 
> Keith


I can tell that you're more interested in being right, than getting it right; so, I bid you good day.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Funniest thing I've seen in several days!! Gave me a great laugh. (you did get the bird, didn't you?)



mitty said:


> :shock:
> 
> Dis is what happens if you allow cigaring! She snatch it up so fast, she don't know which end is which!


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Great choke hold ;-)



Rick Hall said:


> Or this:


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Where yours blue ribbons. I can show you mine.

Keith


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

If Cigar Hold, Sloppy Hold, or mouthing bumpers was Desirable it would be taught as part of the "Program". (Insert whomevers name)
It ain't and it ain't. 
.
Lots of things related to dog training play off of other seemingly unrelated aspects. Proper Hold, reinforced, will pay dividends later.
.
Like cigar hold? Think it doesn't matter? Then charge your clients for it and make sure to demonstrate dog can really cigar hold when client shows up.
.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Not advantageous? Balderdash.

"Spoonie? What spoonie?"


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

But if a dog cigars dummies, yet picks up birds properly...."What difference does it make"?

The dummy is not the bird, the bird is not the dummy. 
Bumpers aren't thrown at FT's or HT's .... so ... "What difference does it make"?
...if the dog is proper holding the bird.

You guys may possibly be taking the point beyond it's intended purpose.
I'm fairly certain the point is not that cigar holding is desirable 
but that it's not worth fretting over or in need of hard corrections for a junior dog.

Remember, we are talking about Bill Hillmann here, usually in the context of Junior Dogs.
The video is about 'HOLD', not Post Force Fetch Advanced Trained Dogs.

I doubt that Bill would allow cigaring from a finished/seasoned dog
but I also doubt he'd take away from the dog's drive and energy to fix it
.....as long as birds are treated proper.


I could also be totally wrong


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

The videos clips which inspired this thread regards teaching the "Hold" command, which precedes the "Fetch" command in Hillmann's. This is about teaching "Hold" in an easy, low pressure atmosphere, not the 'traditional' Force Fetch of other programs.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Where yours blue ribbons. I can show you mine.
> 
> Keith



Who are you addressing? If me, as I have said, the games don't interest me other than I enjoy photographing them. I don't have a retriever for ribbons, I have one for BIRDS. I have been considering looking into blood tracking as there might be a market for that around here. Could probably charge way less than a helicopter and still take home some good scratch.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Where yours blue ribbons. I can show you mine.
> 
> Keith


Did you win these in retriever field trials?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

mitty said:


> Did you win these in retriever field trials?


Are your fingers crapping yet, by trying to find me on EE. Most every one that has been on here for any length of time knows that I HT my labs ( when I have time ) and FT my Springer's. I don't think that there's a difference when it comes to a good hold and pick-up. 

Mitty, I am surprised that you did not know this or are you trying to make a point. 

Keith


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Are your fingers crapping yet, by trying to find me on EE. Most every one that has been on here for any length of time knows that I HT my labs ( when I have time ) and FT my Springer's. I don't think that there's a difference when it comes to a good hold and pick-up.
> 
> Mitty, I am surprised that you did not know this or are you trying to make a point.
> 
> Keith


You are offering advice about what it takes to succeed in in retriever field trials, but you don't run them. Then you suggest that we should listen to you because you got blue ribbons. But you don't run retriever field trials so actually, no, you don't have blue ribbons in retriever field trials.

Meanwhile Bill Hillman has tons of them, I am going to listen to him.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick Hall said:


> Not advantageous? Balderdash.
> 
> "Spoonie? What spoonie?"


Now that's funny! LOL ...Can you train my dogs to do that with those particular ducks, I'd pay good money for that!? How about always delivering to my hands, any bird with jewelery on?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

mitty said:


> You are offering advice about what it takes to succeed in in retriever field trials, but you don't run them. Then you suggest that we should listen to you because you got blue ribbons. But you don't run retriever field trials so actually, no, you don't have blue ribbons in retriever field trials.
> 
> Meanwhile Bill Hillman has tons of them, I am going to listen to him.


Your a nut case. do what ever you want.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

My background is science. I've always been “collecting data” and analyzing it. Most of the time the driving question is “Why?”

About ten year ago, I was working on my second retriever and decide to “carefully” observe how he picked up bumpers early on. The rationale was to find a reason a pup might cigar.

Years have passed and the data seems to still fit the same conclusion. What's interesting is how more recent retriever training techniques and attitudes seem to have a better effect. 

Here's is the original data (with no alterations).

_”I decided to watch Kooly closely to study the "cigaring" habit (if it came up). This was a pre-planned experiment which required a collection of observations as data.

Data/observations:
1) when Kooly drove hard for a dummy - usually no cigar
2) when either screwing around or anxiously avoiding the proper response to a pinch, he more than likely ended up with an end
3) when in tall grass (4 inches plus) “cigaring” didn't happen very often
4) when fetching off the driveway or very short, worn grass - “cigaring” was almost a certainty

Analysis:
1) “cigaring” is a lazy habit that is enhanced by light bumpers that are difficult to get off the ground when a pup is aware that sticking his nose and chin down hard in the middle is uncomfortable and/or avoidance leads away from the middle to the ends (the "end" means I'm doing this under protest) 

2) when the adrenalin is high, he doesn't care how or where it is and grabs the whole thing (in the middle)

3) there is very little physical penalty for picking up light-weight objects by the end (when either playing or avoiding) correcting after the fact is almost too late"_

Fast forward to this thread...for many years the penchant to cigar has been lumped in with the idea that FF was not done properly. The helpful "I did FF correctly....and you didn't." approach. Yet many, many trainers believe that it is not a big deal in the long run. 

Hillmann's video pinpoints exactly the difference in those two views. "Make" the pup stop or ignore it and just work at having the pup excited about retrieving. 

I would suggest looking at the original data from a perspective that not all pups have the same drive. The high drive pup is less likely to “notice” some irritants like hard ground or exhibit tentative actions when being trained. High drive “covers up” what a pup with a tad less drive may exhibit. Add to this that not all pups thrive on pressure when it is poorly presented. 

There are going to be pups that are a little tentative or sensitive and they will be more likely to "cigar". What a great read that would be for the aware trainer. I will suggest that “cigaring” presentations greeted with pressure is actually counter to what the pup needs. 

The pressure treated pup (note: most pups are not a 2X4) may respond in three different ways 1) he may just take it, get tougher, quit “cigaring” and forgive you or 2) a pup may react poorly, a protracted negative attitude about training might set in and you'll try to move on or 3) the pup will endure, get older and eventually the phase will pass with "skeletons in the closet". 

My question would be “Which approach is best for the pup? Personally, I prefer to not make any attempt to force a pup to be tough. A pup allowed to progress at their own rate has a better chance of reaching its potential. Training above all else should be exciting and fun.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

KwickLabs said:


> A pup allowed to progress at their own rate
> has a better chance of reaching its potential.
> Training above all else should be exciting and fun.


Well Said. The whole post is quote worthy.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I think we're witnessing the shortcoming of drawing conclusions from too small of a sampling. Know I could as easily argue that cigaring results not from temerity but from drive or exuberance:




As for it causing dogs to mess around with and perhaps lose birds, a willingness to grab what they can, rather than holding out for the middle, has worked out pretty darn well for us:


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> Light me up!


So cute Jim!!! Having fun again. From so young to so old! My Blackie.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Jim;
I see nothing wrong with what you are saying, I never suggested once that I put pressure on my babies. 1) I never take the bumper to soon. I want them to think that it is theirs and if they are holding from the end. I just replace it, let them run around with it and then call them in. I do clean up the behavior during formal training if needed.

What really frustrates me is that all these one dog wonders and DVD trainers. They made it sound like a sloppy hold or cigaring is a OK behavior. It is not in my book.

For all you that think I am such a mean guy. Try working with Springer's and cocker's. For many, one false move and their shutting down. Read your dog a train accordingly.

Keith


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## jackh (Oct 14, 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Your a nut case. do what ever you want.











Everybody relax jesus


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> My background is science. I've always been “collecting data” and analyzing it. Most of the time the driving question is “Why?”
> 
> About ten year ago, I was working on my second retriever and decide to “carefully” observe how he picked up bumpers early on. The rationale was to find a reason a pup might cigar.
> 
> ...


Nice info and nicely put Thanks


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Rick Hall said:


> I think we're witnessing the shortcoming of drawing conclusions from too small of a sampling. Know I could as easily argue that cigaring results not from temerity but from drive or exuberance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I need to have more visual aids. you don't need to tenderize that one. 

Keith


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> I need to have more visual aids. you don't need to tenderize that one.
> 
> Keith


Here you go, more tentative cigaring, this time on a diving sprig while returning with a blackjack:






Ducks don't look too tender to me, but you betcha he punches holes catching some lively ones. 

Of course, I'm having a little fun with the photos, but the Point remains that that cigaring son of a gun is anything but low drive or tentative and has no trouble deciding where to grab a live bird. I don't recall any of his HT ribbons being blue (never kept a ribbon), but he's logged several thousand ducks and geese without losing much, if anything, he was able to catch up with.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Looks like a vary nice dog. All my blue one are with my Springer's. I do not have enough time to do both. My point was, The dogs have a tendency to regrip when they grab them from the end and in a FT you are judged not on what they do,but how they look while they are doing it. I don't think that would change no matter what game you are playing. if my FT Springer's delivered a bird with a bunch of holes in it, I would be toast. 

Keith


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

truthseeker said:


> Looks like a vary nice dog. All my blue one are with my Springer's. I do not have enough time to do both.
> 
> Keith


Then why do you continue to give advice on this RETRIEVER forum???


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

truthseeker said:


> My point was, The dogs have a tendency to regrip when they grab them from the end and in a FT you are judged not on what they do,but how they look while they are doing it. I don't think that would change no matter what game you are playing. if my FT Springer's delivered a bird with a bunch of holes in it, I would be toast.
> 
> Keith


I'm not going to argue that you might sometimes be judged more on how the dogs look than on what they do, but for this particular issue it certainly would not seem to be within the rules. 

If you look at paragraph 36 of the standard procedure, you will see that a "dog should not drop his game on the ground, but a distinction should be made between deliberately dropping a bird and readjusting a bad hold or losing his grip because of a struggling bird or running over uneven terrain." Under paragraph 37, a dog "should deliver the bird promptly and tenderly to his handler." Under paragraph 38, "a dog shall be eliminated for hard mouth or badly damaging game." As far as I can tell, there is more grace for sloppy mouth habits than for hard mouth habits that might damage game. This of course makes total sense in light of the retriever's normal function of delivering table-ready game to his handler. 

This is also borne out in the listing of faults in the supplement to the standard procedure. Extreme freezing and hard mouth are serious faults that in and of themselves justify elimination from a stake. OTOH, slow pick up of a bird, dropping a bird, handling game in a sloppy manner, and slight freezing are all minor faults, which may be so slight as to not warrant any penalty at all, or which, if repeated or combined, may rise to moderate or serious faults.

Given the clear distinction made between just flat deliberately dropping a bird (a cigared bumper is still being held, right?) and readjusting a bad hold (which presupposes a bad hold being taken to start with), and given the classification of dropping a bird or handling it in a sloppy manner as a minor fault, at least as long as the behavior is isolated, it appears that this really should be mostly a non-issue, particularly knowing that you can't really cigar a bird. 

Assuming all other performance the same, would you penalize Rick's dog for his hold on the bird in the pictures above? Under the rules as cited above, can you?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

mjh345 said:


> Then why do you continue to give advice on this RETRIEVER forum???


I also have some orange ones laying around here some where form my yellow and black dogs Or they might be with there dog owners. I also train pointers, should I just be on a pointer forum. When it come to fundamentals, the mind set is the same. I like to think that I am will rounded. If you think that my advise is not to your liking here's your chance to put me in my place.

I have read, that you have had some success with your new dog. Did you train it by yourself ?.

You know, I was talking to a well know retriever trainer at a hunt test a few years ago. I asked him when should I go full time with retrievers? He told me " When you can no longer chase those Springer's around". I had to laugh.

Keith


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

RookieTrainer said:


> I'm not going to argue that you might sometimes be judged more on how the dogs look than on what they do, but for this particular issue it certainly would not seem to be within the rules.
> 
> If you look at paragraph 36 of the standard procedure, you will see that a "dog should not drop his game on the ground, but a distinction should be made between deliberately dropping a bird and readjusting a bad hold or losing his grip because of a struggling bird or running over uneven terrain." Under paragraph 37, a dog "should deliver the bird promptly and tenderly to his handler." Under paragraph 38, "a dog shall be eliminated for hard mouth or badly damaging game." As far as I can tell, there is more grace for sloppy mouth habits than for hard mouth habits that might damage game. This of course makes total sense in light of the retriever's normal function of delivering table-ready game to his handler.
> 
> ...


The little things are the difference between first and good try maybe next time.

Keith


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> Looks like a vary nice dog. All my blue one are with my Springer's. I do not have enough time to do both. My point was, The dogs have a tendency to regrip when they grab them from the end and in a FT you are judged not on what they do,but how they look while they are doing it. I don't think that would change no matter what game you are playing. if my FT Springer's delivered a bird with a bunch of holes in it, I would be toast.
> 
> Keith


You sure you aren't an Olympian, too? That's quite a triple jump from cigaring to regripping to puncturing game.


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## laurelwood (Dec 1, 2011)




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## banknote (Jul 26, 2014)

Try as he might, Ki just couldn't get his mouth around the middle of this bird.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Rick Hall said:


> You sure you aren't an Olympian, too? That's quite a triple jump from cigaring to regripping to puncturing game.


Rick, one thing Rookie left out in his very nice post about judging retrievers is STYLE. Yours has it hands down. Very nice!


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Thank you. He's been a fine friend and hand.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

We all can't get it.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> Where yours blue ribbons. I can show you mine.
> 
> Keith


Since this whole thing started with a guy trying to make a point by leveraging accomplishments of one of (if not THE) most successful young dog trainer in the history of FT, I guess you're trying to compare yourself to Hillman?

Love ya Keith but you're fighting a useless fight here against a guy (indirectly) that you won't win against.

As for the subject at hand I think it may be one of those "it depends" kind of topics where you would bust a certain dog's butt over it but let another one get away with it based on their personality.


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## maryhill (Oct 9, 2005)

This is Mary ... since this thread has had some attention I decided to talk to Bill a little bit about it and his thoughts were based on logic. If a beginning dog holds the bumper by the end, it's no big deal. If a five yr old holds a bumper consistently, by the end, it might be a problem, especially if they start throwing bumpers in AKC/HRC events. Bill thinks that for the most part puppies, as they grow up, get the idea that it's easier to carry a bumper in the middle than it is to carry it by either end. Frankly I must agree with him (Bill). We have trained many many dogs and it's common for puppies to hold the bumper on the end but in 99.68% that delinquency disappears as they mature. Bill thinks that Mr Boyer from page 5 has pretty much figured it out. The most important overall concept is that you don't ruin a puppy before he even gets started, trying to correct an insignificant occurrence that is going to correct itself in a short while. Bill thinks that the development of a dog's inherent power and talent is more important than breaking him down over things that in the long run become insignificant. We all want courage, desire, brilliant working dogs and it's important to always ADD to them rather than subtract from them.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

maryhill said:


> This is Mary ... since this thread has had some attention I decided to talk to Bill a little bit about it and his thoughts were based on logic. If a beginning dog holds the bumper by the end, it's no big deal. If a five yr old holds a bumper consistently, by the end, it might be a problem, especially if they start throwing bumpers in AKC/HRC events. Bill thinks that for the most part puppies, as they grow up, get the idea that it's easier to carry a bumper in the middle than it is to carry it by either end. Frankly I must agree with him (Bill). We have trained many many dogs and it's common for puppies to hold the bumper on the end but in 99.68% that delinquency disappears as they mature. Bill thinks that Mr Boyer from page 5 has pretty much figured it out. The most important overall concept is that you don't ruin a puppy before he even gets started, trying to correct an insignificant occurrence that is going to correct itself in a short while. Bill thinks that the development of a dog's inherent power and talent is more important than breaking him down over things that in the long run become insignificant. We all want courage, desire, brilliant working dogs and it's important to always ADD to them rather than subtract from them.



Thanks Mrs. Mary. That's pretty much what (I)-as well as several here-
got from the video. But I also have watched and learned from Bill 
through hours of videos on DVD and YouTube,(& email) so his philosophy was well seen
in this series from (my) point of view.

Thanks for all the hard work~!


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

maryhill said:


> This is Mary ... since this thread has had some attention I decided to talk to Bill a little bit about it and his thoughts were based on logic. If a beginning dog holds the bumper by the end, it's no big deal. If a five yr old holds a bumper consistently, by the end, it might be a problem, especially if they start throwing bumpers in AKC/HRC events. Bill thinks that for the most part puppies, as they grow up, get the idea that it's easier to carry a bumper in the middle than it is to carry it by either end. Frankly I must agree with him (Bill). We have trained many many dogs and it's common for puppies to hold the bumper on the end but in 99.68% that delinquency disappears as they mature. Bill thinks that Mr Boyer from page 5 has pretty much figured it out. The most important overall concept is that you don't ruin a puppy before he even gets started, trying to correct an insignificant occurrence that is going to correct itself in a short while. Bill thinks that the development of a dog's inherent power and talent is more important than breaking him down over things that in the long run become insignificant. We all want courage, desire, brilliant working dogs and it's important to always ADD to them rather than subtract from them.


See, the video was taking about puppies. not finished dogs. Even though 5 years is stretching thing a bit and if it rolls over into problems with their hold and pick-up, I would look at it a lot sooner.
Weather I replace the bumper and let the pup run around with it or not, is not adding any pressure to the to the over all experience. I just think that the pup get the idea quicker. 

I am not spending my time on here to one up anyone and I don't care who is who. What I am doing is strengthening my communication skills. I find it harder to deal with those that have a certain mind set, then it is to train their dogs. Just like this thread for example. I had a different approach to one part of a well like trainer. Instead of looking at my advise with a open mind and seeing it as it is. Some right away went on the defense. I will take that and learn from it, when talking to my students about their dogs. So when I see something that they need to work on ( a more effective hold and pick-up ) I will make them feel better about themselves and still get what the dog needs to be more competitive. 

Thanks for your help on my journey and I mean that.

Keith


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> I am not spending my time on here to one up anyone and I don't care who is who. What I am doing is strengthening my communication skills. I find it harder to deal with those that have a certain mind set, then it is to train their dogs. Just like this thread for example. I had a different approach to one part of a well like trainer. Instead of looking at my advise with a open mind and seeing it as it is. Some right away went on the defense.


Don't mind admitting I had a little fun trying to keep some minds open about cigaring, which I believe may or may not be a manifestation of a real problem but neither a problem in its own right or central to correcting said problem. And I probably should have found a less smart-assed way to point out the world class conclusion jumping of your argument to the contrary. But I did at least stifle (until now) the one-upsman in me that was dying to ask "Selfie?" after your post #67. 

Best of luck with your dogs and tutoring.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I can't imagine a judge in any retriever field trial, making note of a dog that has delivered to hand, but has an unconventional grip on a bird.
It doesn't matter.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Related to Cigar Hold, Sloppy Mouth etc...
This is quote from a old post by Bohn on this topic for those who think it's an issue and want to know what they can do about it.
.
.
_*""
Remember when the young puppy use to bring the bumper or paint roller back? Ever notice how they held it??? Usually right in the middle correct? 
When does the cigar hold start?? 
When the dog figures out he can do it and get away with it. 
Most people don't fix it because it's cute, the problem is somewhere down the line it's not so cute anymore. 

WHY?


1) Bad holds or lazy holds lead to mouthy chompy deliveries. Do we fix them or do we reach down slap them under the jaw and say "HOLD". 
I'd say most people cuff under the jaw and the dog stops chomping, but guess what they'll do it again. Sound close?? 
It's not fixed just a band-aid.

2) Next thing that usually occurs you move into doubles. Problem is the dog is still chomping on the bumper, your trying to correct a hold yet in turn takes away from the dogs memory. 
Ever see this?? 
Dog runs out looks stupid because it can't remember a double, but back on line the dog just got cuffed and yelled at.

3) Everyone’s favorite: Rolling birds in it's mouth, now your really pissed because your progressing towards competing and the dog has chompy deliveries. Judges don't like to see that to much, do they??

4) Freezing on birds would be my next guess, WHY? Chompy, alligator deliveries. 
When a dog grabs or alligators a delivery people yell "GIVE" get mad because of the delivery and give the bird back to the dog and try it again. 
The dog just got rewarded for a bad delivery and figures out every time he chomps a bird he'll get it back.

5) Where does it start and stop??? 

THE YARD


OK after 4 PM'S I guess there is interest in getting rid of the cigar hold:

1) It all starts in the yard, hand throw a bumper when the dog returns to a heel grab the check cord and slap the bumper out of the dogs mouth if he is holding it like a cigar or mouthing it. Ear pinch the dog to the bumper and command fetch. 
Now you have a choice. 
(A)walk the dog in the yard and watch when they start having a lose hold on the bumper hit the bumper with your knee, again ear pinch to the bumper. (B) hand throw another bumper to get another correction for a sloppy hold. Don't let him dive for the fallen bumper until you have his ear. 
(AND THEY SHOULD BE DIVING)

2) Once the dog knows the drill and the dog has been thru electric fetch no fetch, replace the ear pinch with a continuous burn until he has the bumper in his mouth. You should notice a real big change in how he now holds the bumpers.

3) When YOU feel the dog is ready transfer the corrections over to a field atmosphere. 
Once the dog knows the drill in the field you can yell fetch and they usually stop and readjust the hold if not correct.

4) Remember to try and train the dog to the best of your ability and correct minor problems because usually they lead to the bigger ones. 
Some people don't care we do..... Randy""*_
.
.
.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Breck said:


> 1) Bad holds or lazy holds lead to mouthy chompy deliveries.


I'm certainly no pro, but I'd view what I gather Bohn is speaking to as a cigaring problem but as a loose mouth issue and curb it early on without pressure through the use of valved bumpers with just enough water in them to slosh back and forth as Pup runs, feeling alive and prompting a more secure hold until that's become habitual.

(For those who might not be aware of it, the valve can be opened by pulling it out, then some air squeezed from the bumper before submerging it in water and releasing it to draw in water and reclosing the valve. Too little water won't produce much "life," but too much will also deaden the effect. Just rock the bumper a bit while adjusting the amount of water in it, and you'll soon find what's "just right".)


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Rick, after all this, could truther be saying that spaniels shouldn't be immune from prosecution for cigaring, but there are greater canine crimes










that they _*should*_ be held accountable for?

Even encouraged to "roll" their own with impunity 










- but, you know, only rolling with game. 

And when it comes to cigaring, with White Owls and, er,Tiparillos excluded...










MG


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Given the variety of stuff I've seen your dogs photographed with, I'm a little surprised that isn't a barn or snowy owl.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I honestly never had an issue with it through seven dogs. If they did the cigar thing as pups, they learned over time it's easier to pick them up in the middle, so I never really worried about it. As for picking up birds in a field trial or actual hunting, it doesn't matter to me how they carry the bird. I can't believe an eight page thread on this topic.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I can't believe an eight page thread on this topic.


Still not hunting season for some of us. Three more wake-ups...


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> I honestly never had an issue with it through seven dogs. If they did the cigar thing as pups, they learned over time it's easier to pick them up in the middle, so I never really worried about it. As for picking up birds in a field trial or actual hunting, it doesn't matter to me how they carry the bird. I can't believe an eight page thread on this topic.





Rick Hall said:


> Still not hunting season for some of us. Three more wake-ups...


... and actually only 2 pages for some of us ... 

I really posted the Video Series b/c this is just another one of THOSE things
that new trainers can 'freak out' on and worry about....but for no real legitimate reason.

I posted it as a way to say, "Hey, even Bill H isn't concnerend about PRE-FF dogs 
cigaring bumpers and not concerned about POST-FF dogs doing it unless it becomes 
a habit AND that Slapping them under the chin with a forceful **HOLD** Command isn't the greatest idea.


What happened between here and there .... egos....


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Dustin D said:


> What happened between here and there .... egos....


Yup, Eggos did it:


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