# Cryptorchid- when to neuter?



## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

A puppy who just turned 4 months old, who had 2 palpable testicles at 8 weeks (based on my check and an exam by our vet), has been to the vet twice with their new owners now and both times their vet could only palpate one testicle. They are pressuring the owner to neuter him asap because of the risk of cancer to the retained testicle, and have presented some pretty scary stories to push their cause. 

I know that retained testicles are at risk of becoming cancerous, but I normally recommend that families wait at least 14 months to neuter to give the puppy a chance to finish growing. Obviously these owners do not want to put their puppy at risk of cancer (especially the nasty spreading kind that their vet is worried about) but also don't want to neuter him this young if they don't have to based on the studies I have sent them which show an increased risk of cancers later on/cruciate injuries, etc. Personally, if it was my puppy I would not be panicking yet but it is not my puppy so I am looking for unbiased advice/excperience. 

My questions are:
how long would you wait before neutering this type of puppy? 
What is the earliest one would worry about cancer in a retained testicle, and what is the latest it could drop if it was going to? 

Thanks in advance.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

After 15 months of age is when I recommend people neuter. I'd cite some of the studies regarding testosterone and bone growth (or lack of).

I would NOT neuter before then.

I have owned two males that had retained testicles and I neutered them both at about 7 to 8 years of age. Neither had any cancer issues.

WRL


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Cancer is a risk later in life. Like Lee I would let the dog fully mature and think about it at 1.5 to 2 years of age. 

/Paul


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Agree with Lee and Paul.
First time it happened with a pup we bred...it was my vet who said to wait. Often the testicle will come down. Way too early to neuter.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Keep in mind a lot of vets pressure to spay/neuter early regardless of problem. Most of them are Bob Barker fans...

/Paul


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Erin Lynes said:


> A puppy who just turned 4 months old, who had 2 palpable testicles at 8 weeks (based on my check and an exam by our vet), has been to the vet twice with their new owners now and both times their vet could only palpate one testicle. They are pressuring the owner to neuter him asap because of the risk of cancer to the retained testicle, and have presented some pretty scary stories to push their cause.
> 
> I know that retained testicles are at risk of becoming cancerous, but I normally recommend that families wait at least 14 months to neuter to give the puppy a chance to finish growing. Obviously these owners do not want to put their puppy at risk of cancer (especially the nasty spreading kind that their vet is worried about) but also don't want to neuter him this young if they don't have to based on the studies I have sent them which show an increased risk of cancers later on/cruciate injuries, etc. Personally, if it was my puppy I would not be panicking yet but it is not my puppy so I am looking for unbiased advice/excperience.
> 
> ...


Here's some references:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/earlyspayconsiderations.pdf

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/castrationindogs.html


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Or take out the retained testicle and leave the other. That's what I did. Are they opposed to leaving the puppy intact??

Angie


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Thanks for the references Frontier, these have already been provided and prior to the 'cancer' horror story discussion this morning they were completely on board with leaving the puppy intact until at least 14 months of age. 

Angie I like your idea which might be 'the best of both worlds' if it comes to that. 

Paul I agree that many many vets are using some serious scare tactics to get dogs neutered young, it's starting to tick me off. I had one earlier this year- a 5 month old female that the vet advised should be spayed asap because she had a 'retained puppy tooth' and it would be safer to do both surgeries at once. Come on, when did 5 months of age become an emergency tooth removal. Other pups in that litter had only started losing their puppy teeth... 

Thanks Lee and everyone for posting, this all confirms my feeling that their vet is really rushing things. Charlotte we need more vets like yours. Our vet is pretty reasonable and is not one to panic but there seems to be a lot out there that do and it must be scary to be their client!


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

I have a friend who raises Samoyeds. She had one that she would have lay on it's back and she would go "fishing" for the testicle per her vet and then hold it down in the sack a few times a day. Was told that would help it descend. Am not sure what became of that issue as he went to a pet home.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

Totally agree with waiting until male pup well over a year old before neutering do to skeletal growth. I also agree that the young vets are getting brainwashed in college re extreme early spay and neutering. Sometimes it can backfire on them. We got a puppy in May that had a horrendous trip via United Airlines from Chicago (3+ hr. flight delay). A week later on Sunday, pup has urinary tract infection, probably somewhat due to stress of trip. Rush her to emergency vet who gives us antibiotics and declares that 11 week old pup should be spayed so that she won't have urinary tract infection! Duh! Big mistake because my regular vet is on the board of emergency vet clinic. When pup and I went to my regular vet on Monday, my regular vet contacted the young emergency resident and explained how far off in left field he was! Oops! Don't think that young vet will be in such a rush to tell owner that kind of information again any time soon!


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## Schmemdog (Mar 30, 2010)

A year to 18 months, the same as with any other dog that is unfit for breeding. Cryptorchidism very likely has a genetic component and yes, dogs with one undescended testicle usually only suffer a slight drop in fertility. As to fishing for the testicle- if it's not descended now, it's not going to and the plan to neuter is a good one.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Schmemdog said:


> A year to 18 months, the same as with any other dog that is unfit for breeding. Cryptorchidism very likely has a genetic component and yes, dogs with one undescended testicle usually only suffer a slight drop in fertility. As to fishing for the testicle- if it's not descended now, it's not going to and the plan to neuter is a good one.


Untrue. They can and do drop later. 
WRL


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

This pup is not being bred regardless so fertility is not a consideration. But based on what many have said here and on another forum, it seems like they DO tend to drop later, more often than I knew about anyway, and especially when both testicles are known to have been descended at some point like with this pup. 

Anyway, the owners have decided to wait until later to neuter as planned - thanks everyone who posted and helped put my mind (and theirs) at ease!


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## Schmemdog (Mar 30, 2010)

WRL said:


> Untrue. They can and do drop later.
> WRL


Yes, they CAN, but it is extremely unlikely. Most vets will pronounce a dog a true cryptorchid at 8 weeks, with the outer limit being 16 weeks. According to Johnston et al., partial closure of the inguinal ring at 6 months precludes the possibility of a retained testicle from dropping past that age. 

Glad the owners made an informed decision, this is a great forum


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Schmemdog said:


> Yes, they CAN, but it is extremely unlikely. Most vets will pronounce a dog a true cryptorchid at 8 weeks, with the outer limit being 16 weeks. According to Johnston et al., partial closure of the inguinal ring at 6 months precludes the possibility of a retained testicle from dropping past that age.
> 
> Glad the owners made an informed decision, this is a great forum


Well I have had 3 of 4 dogs with retained testicles drop their testicle from 10 to 12 months. I am not sure of which Johnston you are referring to but I believe the saying is "If the left testicle is down, then the right has a good chance of dropping. If the right is down, the left testicle will most likely not drop." I believe that both Dr Ed (on RTF) and Dr Hutchison have stated this (it might be vice versa, can't remember).

I would NEVER say it was UNLIKELY. I would give ANY dog a 50% chance of dropping a testicle until 12 months of age. 

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

This is an old post by Janice Gunn....

"
*







*

In October I attended a Dr. Hutchinson seminar on reproduction.
It was fantastic to say the least.

Here is some very interesting information that most people are not aware of.

*The testicles are in the scrotum at 5-6 wks old
The left comes down first
IF the right testie is there and not the left - then there is cause for concern.
If the left is there, good chance the right will follow.
If you have to neuter FIND OUT WHY the testie did not come down.
If one cord is shorter than the other, then it is genetic - HOWEVER - the cord can be
wrapped around the testie not allowing it to drop.
If both cords are the same length, then it is not genetic.

Unfortunately when this happens, people just neuter the dog and decide that it is
genetic.
When in fact, it could possibly be fixed when they go into neuter!

So Connie determine which testie has dropped. If it is the left, then "chances" are the 
right will drop later. If the pup has to be neutered, then I would want a vet that can determine cord length, and if the testie was hung up before I decided to blame it on the 
bitch or more commonly the stud dog. "

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...nded-testicle/page2&highlight=hutchinson+left

There is also a post on that thread from Dr Ed. Good info.

WRL​


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Thanks for digging that up Lee!


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

FTCH AFTCH Odds was a producer of the two time high pont open and amateur dog in Canada. He had one testicle that descended and one that did not. At 9 years of age the undescended testicle presented problems and it was removed. He lived to 14 plus years and had a fine field trial career. If you have a quality animal don't be to hasty with the knife. For those of you that have not had terrific field trial dogs I understand where you may be coming from. Often it is the case that those who advocate neutering or spaying of someone's dog fall into one of two distnict categories; 1. you have little appreciation for the great dogs or 2. you really do see junk and recognize right away.


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