# Definition of intimidation



## dcoffeytyme (Oct 15, 2010)

A friend of mine ran his first Qualifying stake today and was warned for intimidating his dog. As his dog stepped on the memory bird in his excitement he called out "woohoo, way to go Ridge!" One of the judges told him "you can't do that, it's intimidation." I have spent most of my time in the Hunt Test arena and have even judged a few, only recently dabbled in the Field Trial world. I have read both rule books more than once and again today following this incident. I can not find any rule in either book that by any stretch of the imagination condemns praising your dog. Is there a rule addressing this or any rule pertaining to intimidation that I am not interpreting correctly? 

Thank you,

Dave Coffey


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Judge is a DA.

Not the first time I've heard that either. Once saw the warning after the dog got the last bird in a Master test.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Nowhere in Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers does the word intimidation appear nor is there a list of forbidden words and phrases. This is another made up rule that is NOT supported by the rule book.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

EdA said:


> Nowhere in Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers does the word intimidation appear nor is there a list of forbidden words and phrases. This is another made up rule that is NOT supported by the rule book.


Agree 100%. There are a few misunderstood rules not supported by the rule book.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

The word is however in the hunt test rule book as someone pointed it out to me a while back. 

The word being in the HT rules does not make the warning as described by the op justified. Any judge who would give a warning for that needs to turn in their card. And yes, I know they volunteer, but that doesn't mean they can sit in the chair and do stupid stuff.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I was failed for "Intimidation" by saying the word"NO" on a blind....  

The judge said "You cant say that word" I said ,,, But Judge,, Its her middle name" 

Neither one of them were impressed! 

The guys that were there that knew the dog, thought it was hilarious that someone thought you could intimidate that dog with a word.... NOTHING bothered her...NOTHING ... Head as thick as a vault!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ok,, I admitt,,,, I yelled it...


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

captainjack said:


> The word is however in the hunt test rule book as someone pointed it out to me a while back.
> 
> The word being in the HT rules does not make the warning as described by the op justified. Any judge who would give a warning for that needs to turn in their card. And yes, I know they volunteer, but that doesn't mean they can sit in the chair and do stupid stuff.


This is the rule, verbatim, from the HT Regulations on page 63

Under serious handler faults:

63
9. 
Threatening Gestures
 - or any form of intimidation 
made to the dog.

Clearly, this is meant to deal with handlers intimidating a dog *at the line,* not at a distance.

I agree that this judge needs to consider what the written rule means before judging again. If they are at odds with the written rules and choose to judge in a contrary manner, they should stop judging.-Paul


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

In the rule book or not you should not be intimidating to your dog while running a test or trial BUT how in the hell do you interpret praise as intimidating??????????????? And after the dog has picked up the birds????


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Steve Shaver said:


> In the rule book or not you should not be intimidating to your dog while running a test or trial BUT how in the hell do you interpret praise as intimidating??????????????? And after the dog has picked up the birds????


That's what I was was thinking. Clearly a newbie handler thrilled with his dog's good job. Yelling out an attaboy after the fact doesn't effect the test in anyway. Probably a good idea for the handler to grow out of that habit, but it's refreshing to see an unbridled happy exclamation in our jaded sport.


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

Intimidation is probably the wrong word. Keep in mind that the handler and dog are still under judgement until the bird has been delivered to hand, inspected by a judge, and the dog is off line and on lead.
Was he the last dog to run?? A little cavalier to scream out, when other dogs still in contention haven't run yet! 
I wasn't there, so this is just speculation at best.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Malcolm said:


> Intimidation is probably the wrong word. Keep in mind that the handler and dog are still under judgement until the bird has been delivered to hand, inspected by a judge, and the dog is off line and on lead.
> Was he the last dog to run?? A little cavalier to scream out, when other dogs still in contention haven't run yet!
> I wasn't there, so this is just speculation at best.




A little cavalier to express excitement that his dog did well? It had nothing to do with other dogs still in contention. I was there in the holding blind next to run and if it were me I would have not said a word to the guy, no I take that back I would have told him "good job". This was just a little ol DQ designed to attract just this kind of people. It had zero consequences to the handlers dog or any other dog. The guy was happy and excited and having fun.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Yes, have to bridle that enthusiasm and make sure you aren't having fun while playing dog games. Judges gonna get you.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Ya know what , I am not a newbie, but I sometimes still yell GOOD DOG when my dog does well. If someone tells me I cannot I will probably get called in front of the committee


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Ya know what , I am not a newbie, but I sometimes still yell GOOD DOG when my dog does well. If someone tells me I cannot I will probably get called in front of the committee


Yes to this!! Common sense is not so common anymore.


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> A little cavalier to express excitement that his dog did well? It had nothing to do with other dogs still in contention. I was there in the holding blind next to run and if it were me I would have not said a word to the guy, no I take that back I would have told him "good job". This was just a little ol DQ designed to attract just this kind of people. It had zero consequences to the handlers dog or any other dog. The guy was happy and excited and having fun.


I disagree! Anytime you raise your voice in competition it can effect other dogs! It's the judges jobs to make sure the conditions are the same for each running dog. Hence no cheer leading from the handler. This reminds me of current day sports where a guy runs down the field and makes a play he was to supposed to make. Then runs around screaming as if it was never done before. The term act like you 've been there, even if you haven't comes to mind. Sportmanship and Etiquette are still in play in FT's. I hope we don't go down the road of some of the casual golf fans screaming in the hole or mashed potato when a guy or gal tee's off on a par 5. Have fun, enjoy it, but show composure.

This is by no means a reprimand! 

Maybe the judges could have explained the expectations without a warning being given. 
My thoughts are, they were informing him on how it would be viewed by the people holding the books (Judges)! At the end of the day their words or drawings are the only things that count.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

paul young said:


> This is the rule, verbatim, from the HT Regulations on page 63
> 
> Under serious handler faults:
> 
> ...


You can't be eliminated for anything you say. You may be eliminated for the body language and posture that goes with it, but not for the words.

ges·ture
ˈjesCHər/
_noun_



*1*.
a movement of part of the body, especially a hand or the head, to express an idea or meaning.
"Alex made a gesture of apology"

synonyms:signal, sign, motion, indication, gesticulation; show
"a gesture of surrender"

























_verb_



*1*.
make a gesture.
"she gestured meaningfully with the pistol"


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

I just wanted to throw this out to add to the debate of intimidation...I might be way out in left field, but somebody might see it from this angle... if we are saying the use of words can be a form of intimidation towards the dog...

Let's say your dog is working a blind and you give a couple silent back casts and the dog doesn't quite go how you want....you give another whistle sit, this time a back cast with a loud vocal BACK!!! Could that not be a form of intimidation? Meaning get your butt further back!! When obviously the dog understands the silent back cast, but it was not enough to get the dog where it needed to be... Just because it's a command...the tone or volume can be adjusted to push the dog further/harder and possibly "intimidate" the dog to go where you want it to go.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Maybe the judge was joking and the handler just misinterpreted it?


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Ya know what , I am not a newbie, but I sometimes still yell GOOD DOG when my dog does well. If someone tells me I cannot I will probably get called in front of the committee


Oh my. Remind me to duct tape my mouth shut before I run. Cause I can't help it, the main reason I do this stuff is to have fun with my boy and if he does a good job, or heck, just tries hard, I'm gonna holler. If anybody doesn't like it I'll take my cookies and go home. So there.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Becky Mills said:


> ... If anybody doesn't like it I'll take my cookies and go home...


Now that's intimidation!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Newf said:


> I just wanted to throw this out to add to the debate of intimidation...I might be way out in left field, but somebody might see it from this angle... if we are saying the use of words can be a form of intimidation towards the dog...
> 
> Let's say your dog is working a blind and you give a couple silent back casts and the dog doesn't quite go how you want....you give another whistle sit, this time a back cast with a loud vocal BACK!!! Could that not be a form of intimidation? Meaning get your butt further back!! When obviously the dog understands the silent back cast, but it was not enough to get the dog where it needed to be... Just because it's a command...the tone or volume can be adjusted to push the dog further/harder and possibly "intimidate" the dog to go where you want it to go.


It could be VERY intimidating to the dog, and therein lies the problem and reason why judges need to be cautious with situations like this... 

You'll get away with a loud back. You'll probably get away with a step forward in your cast also, which could be an equally intimating signal to the dog DEPENDING ENTIRELY ON HOW IT WAS TRAINED.

The fact is, if you know dogs, you can make very subtle signals intimidating (a threat of serious repercussions). I've seen a judge (during my apprenticeship) warn a handler for shuffling his feet on line. Why? because the judge knew the common trick of shuffling before a massive correction and then letting the signal carry over into the test. That said, who knows if the dog was really trained that way or not? I sure didn't and truth is, neither did he. He was running on an assumption and told the handler to knock it off or get dropped. That was said in a serious way and I verified later it was, in fact an old trick that had the judge concerned about the handler intimidating the dog.

I guess my only point is... you have to be careful to judge the dog work and follow the rule book. The book clearly states a "gesture" - yelling NO is not a gesture, and should not be considered intimidation. Yelling NO while stepping toward the dog? Well now we have another thing and it really has more to do with the body language than the voice or the word. 

Someone could really turn a judge upside down if they took to training the dog in all kinds of different cues and tones of voice. 

I could make a nice soft "yes" the same to the dog as a big booming NO! if I wanted to, depending on how I conditioned him to respond. 

Assumptions are bad when you're in the judge's chair, I think.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

One other thing to think about... the use a 'good dog' or 'atta dog' or any other verbal praise (as well as the word 'no') could be construed as training.

Yelling at a dog (even a command) can also be construed as intimidation. Especially if the command has been repeated and continues to get louder and louder (heel, heel, HEEL, HEEEEEEEL!). If the dog has taken a line to a blind and needs a cast because it popped ten yds in front of the handler, and the handler yells back! Back! in an angry voice, a judge might consider that intimidation. Obviously if the dog in 200 yds away in a strong wind, yelling 'Back!' is not intimidation.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Tobias said:


> One other thing to think about... the use a 'good dog' or 'atta dog' or any other verbal praise (as well as the word 'no') could be construed as training.
> 
> Yelling at a dog (even a command) can also be construed as intimidation. Especially if the command has been repeated and continues to get louder and louder (heel, heel, HEEL, HEEEEEEEL!). If the dog has taken a line to a blind and needs a cast because it popped ten yds in front of the handler, and the handler yells back! Back! in an angry voice, a judge might consider that intimidation. Obviously if the dog in 200 yds away in a strong wind, yelling 'Back!' is not intimidation.


Again - TOTALLY BASED ON ASSUMPTIONS... I could easily make "atta boy" mean "I'm about to kick your ass", very, very easily, in fact. I could also yell every command I give to the dog, having never followed it with any kind of punishment. 

You need to be careful not to be dropping people and making such serious accusations based on assumption.

As far as I'm concerned "intimidation" = raising a hand to a dog as if you're about to beat it, and I'm assuming but I'd bet 100$ that's what the rule was put into the book for. That person should not only get dropped they should get reported.

Final point... if someone is yelling NO at a dog on a blind... there's probably plenty of other stuff to drop the dog for


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Yelling at a dog (even a command) can also be construed as intimidation. Especially if the command has been repeated and continues to get louder and louder (heel, heel, HEEL, HEEEEEEEL!).


If the handler has to get to the 4th HEEL!, I'm pretty sure the dog isn't intimidated at all.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

bamajeff said:


> If the handler has to get to the 4th HEEL!, I'm pretty sure the dog isn't intimidated at all.


true...


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I always figured "intimidation" was a lot like "porn" you know it when you see it .


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I always figured "intimidation" was a lot like "porn" you know it when you see it .



Apparently not, unfortunately..... -Paul


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

bamajeff said:


> If the handler has to get to the 4th HEEL!, I'm pretty sure the dog isn't intimidated at all.


I have always laughed and said I wish I could intimidate mine just a hair.

To the point about making assumptions: this is a little ridiculous for the purpose of making a point, but how far do you go with assuming everybody trains like you? For example, what if, for whatever reason, I decided to teach casting exactly backwards (no comments from any of my training partners, please) such that a right hand straight up was actually a right over and vice versa? The dog might be doing exactly what it has been trained to do, but it sure would look like it was giving cast refusals right and left.

Of course, you can very easily go too far the other way and get to the point where saying "I trained him to do that" would cover up anything. As usual, balance in all things.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I always figured "intimidation" was a lot like "porn" you know it when you see it .



I like this!!!


I also like the comment given earlier about the rule pertaining to what is happening at the line,, and not at distance.. Old dogs, old ears..


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I always figured "intimidation" was a lot like "porn" you know it when you see it .


I agree...


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Yes, have to bridle that enthusiasm and make sure you aren't having fun while playing dog games. Judges gonna get you.


I was told a handler lost the blue ribbon for this very same behavior..the judge told him it was unsportsman like to do that...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

"Someone could really turn a judge upside down if they took to training the dog in all kinds of different cues and tones of voice.

I could make a nice soft "yes" the same to the dog as a big booming NO! if I wanted to, depending on how I conditioned him to respond.

Assumptions are bad when you're in the judge's chair, I think." Darrin .....

"I always figured "intimidation" was a lot like "porn" you know it when you see it "Hunt em up

To a good trainer/judge Huntemup has it right....no matter what words are used Darrin...The handler sure knows when he/she is doing it...Steve S


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> I was told a handler lost the blue ribbon for this very same behavior..the judge told him it was unsportsman like to do that...Steve S


I sincerely hope this is just another field trial rumor with no factual basis, if it is true some have lost touch with what this endeavor is all about.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> "Someone could really turn a judge upside down if they took to training the dog in all kinds of different cues and tones of voice.
> 
> I could make a nice soft "yes" the same to the dog as a big booming NO! if I wanted to, depending on how I conditioned him to respond.
> 
> S


If it were that easy my dog would be much more consistent getting fat off a point on a difficult water blind. Believe me, I've tried various methods to project myself and "intimidate" him into giving me those cast when he doesn't want to. What works better is actually training him to take those cast.

I've always taken the "threatening gestures" clause in the rules to mean closer hand, arm or foot movements that could be interpreted by a judge as a threatening gesture. I think we've gone pretty far off line from the OPs comment about a long distance attaboy given to a dog after picking up the last bird. Far 
from a threatening gesture.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> I was told a handler lost the blue ribbon for this very same behavior..the judge told him it was unsportsman like to do that...Steve S


Like beaning a guy for bat flipping...


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> I was told a handler lost the blue ribbon for this very same behavior..the judge told him it was unsportsman like to do that...Steve S


Takes two judges to place dogs. 

Two clowns to to that.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

steve schreiner said:


> "Someone could really turn a judge upside down if they took to training the dog in all kinds of different cues and tones of voice.
> 
> I could make a nice soft "yes" the same to the dog as a big booming NO! if I wanted to, depending on how I conditioned him to respond.
> 
> ...


You missed the point Steve. The book clearly states GESTURES - which are not words...


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Gestures, or any form of intimidation.

That would include words.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

On hunt tests, I praise the dog on picking up and return, but in field trials, there is no such thing per my mentor and others in the circle.
Please understand that was the etiquette back then…At least on the Pacific Northwest. 
My penny


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> I sincerely hope this is just another field trial rumor with no factual basis, if it is true some have lost touch with what this endeavor is all about.


Factual from what I'm told...last series water marks...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> If it were that easy my dog would be much more consistent getting fat off a point on a difficult water blind. Believe me, I've tried various methods to project myself and "intimidate" him into giving me those cast when he doesn't want to. What works better is actually training him to take those cast.
> 
> I've always taken the "threatening gestures" clause in the rules to mean closer hand, arm or foot movements that could be interpreted by a judge as a threatening gesture. I think we've gone pretty far off line from the OPs comment about a long distance attaboy given to a dog after picking up the last bird. Far
> from a threatening gesture.


The quote was from Darrin not me...My point was that a good well informed dog trainer /judge can tell when some one is trying to influence a dog by exaggerated verbal or body movements...I agree training is better but in a pinch handlers will try anything to get the dog to work...even in training ...I didn't say that just because it is recognized by the judge it is grounds for elimination...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> You missed the point Steve. The book clearly states GESTURES - which are not words...


My point was that no matter what words are used a good judge can tell when things just went south and the handler is in panic mode and trying to influence the dog to get the job done..It applies to gestures in body language too.....Steve S


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> My point was that no matter what words are used a good judge can tell when things just went south and the handler is in panic mode and trying to influence the dog to get the job done..It applies to gestures in body language too.....Steve S


I agree that a handler may try through whatever means to "intimidate" his/her dog at long distance, aren't we all trying to do this when we really-really need that cast off a point? I'm just saying regardless of body language, tone of voice, or anything else I can think of short of an electronic collar, most dogs aren't intimidated at distance. That is until the got the bird their own way and are on the way back, ears down not wanting to make eye contact because they know they are in big trouble. They are also out because they refused to cast off the point or even get in the water in the first place, the threatening gestures are moot at this point.

On the other hand, if that dog does respond to that loud "OVER" with a huge exaggerated arm motion, and kicks into the water to finish the water blind in good fashion, as a judge I think good dog and call them back to the next series, not that cast and voice was pretty intimidating, I'm dropping them.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> *On hunt tests, I praise the dog on picking up and return, but in field trials, there is no such thing* per my mentor and others in the circle.
> Please understand that was the etiquette back then…At least on the Pacific Northwest.
> My penny





Just a difference in the mentality of the people playing the game. Bottom line is it *really isn't necessary in either game* but I can certainly understand and appreciate the enthusiasm of the person in this case because I was standing right there. I may have done the same thing when I was at that point in this game. Now if my dog does an exceptional job he gets lots of atta boys after leaving the line. At the line that bird in his mouth is plenty for the dog.
Like I said there is a big difference in the mentality of the people playing the different games. Not putting down or talking up either side, just the way of it. For example I see most people at hunt tests *yelling *over or back with every cast. At a trial a verbal cast is only used when it is needed. You tell me which is intimidation. Neither or both? It's all in the interpretation but I will tell you that in this particular case the word intimidation never should have entered the conversation.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Better question, for those commenting in this thread who run FTs: Can you count (on all your fingers and toes) the number of times you've seen judges let slide what might constitute real intimidation? Shouting kudos to your dog doesn't rate so much as intimidation but is more a discourtesy - to fellow handlers in the holding blind (and their dogs in there with them).

I'm with Malcolm on the "under judgment" angle, and if I were in the holding blind running next when a handler threw his voice 250 yards "downfield" it might be a tad unnerving to dog and handler alike. That's from a competitor's vantage.

Also consider the possibility that a handler shouting "Way to go! - Good job!" to his dog afield might be doing the judges' work for them, by taking a compliment right out of the judges' mouth. Judges like to see good dog work just as we all do - and in my experience generally are given to acknowledge it.

MG


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Just a difference in the mentality of the people playing the game. Bottom line is it *really isn't necessary in either game* but I can certainly understand and appreciate the enthusiasm of the person in this case because I was standing right there. I may have done the same thing when I was at that point in this game.


Perhaps a quote that has been attributed to Vince Lombardi and Darrell Royal is applicable at such moments,

“When you get to the end zone, act like you’ve been there before.”


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

EdA said:


> Perhaps a quote that has been attributed to Vince Lombardi and Darrell Royal is applicable at such moments,
> 
> “When you get to the end zone, act like you’ve been there before.”


I dunno.... I recall a well-deserved (albeit subdued) Dr Ed "whoop" following a Holland 4th series, final mark at Vinwood wherein he paralleled a 150yd shoreline out of sight from the 250 yd retired mark, finally exited, went straight to the bird and pretty much guaranteed the team a blue. A very cool moment that I'll never forget. I know I wouldn't have Whooped. I'd have fainted.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

EdA said:


> Perhaps a quote that has been attributed to Vince Lombardi and Darrell Royal is applicable at such moments,
> 
> “When you get to the end zone, act like you’ve been there before.”


Easier to act like that for those that get there often than for those that may only get there once. 

Yelling good dog should not be equated to spiking the football and dancing around in your opponents face. To me it's more like the fist pump or tossing your putter in the air after sinking a winning put. Acceptable even in the stuffy world of competitive golf.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

So, for the people that think an exuberant "atta boy, good job" could rattle a handler and/or his dog while waiting in the holding blind, or just think it's inappropriate behavior for a handler. What do you think about being in the holding blind while an angry handler is picking up his dog? Lots of NO HERE's and GET OUT OF THERE's. What's your opinion on listening to that, while your waiting to run? Does that worry you? 
Walt


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> So, for the people that think an exuberant "atta boy, good job" could rattle a handler and/or his dog while waiting in the holding blind, or just think it's inappropriate behavior for a handler. What do you think about being in the holding blind while an angry handler is picking up his dog? Lots of NO HERE's and GET OUT OF THERE's. What's your opinion on listening to that, while your waiting to run? Does that worry you?
> Walt


Great point Walt.


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

To the original question/comment. It is generally not good form to talk to your dog while working in the field unless it was proceeded by a whistle (i.e over or back). There is no specific rule that covers this rather it is based on tradition and the notion that the trial is set up under a good days hunt. Not good form to yell in any manner for any reason when hunting for fear of disturbing game or upsetting other hunters. That said I have done it and went on to win an all age stake. Judges should not be warning handlers or dropping dogs in the manner described by the OPEN.

Ronan Bill


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Better question, for those commenting in this thread who run FTs: Can you count (on all your fingers and toes) the number of times you've seen judges let slide what might constitute real intimidation? Shouting kudos to your dog doesn't rate so much as intimidation but is more a discourtesy - to fellow handlers in the holding blind (and their dogs in there with them).
> 
> I'm with Malcolm on the "under judgment" angle, and *if I were in the holding blind running next when a handler threw his voice 250 yards "downfield" it might be a tad unnerving to dog and handler alike*. That's from a competitor's vantage.
> 
> ...




Again that was me and I had no problem with it what so ever. Cant believe this has gone on this long. Also cant believe anyone including the judge would have a problem with this. Again This was NOT AN ISSUE TO ANYONE but the judge because if you weren't standing with in 15 feet you would have never known anything happened, doubt the dog even heard it.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

steve schreiner said:


> My point was that no matter what words are used a good judge can tell when things just went south and the handler is in panic mode and trying to influence the dog to get the job done..It applies to gestures in body language too.....Steve S


That's certainly true but the handler can not be charged with intimidation (it is a charge IMO not a simple "drop" or "Failure" of the dog), there has to be a gesture. Words don't count. That's just what the rule book says.

This is big time serious **** to me. If someone is going to be accused of it they should be written up - not just have the dog "dropped". If it gets to that point there's likely plenty of stuff to drop the dog for. At that point you are playing with a handler's reputation and judges should not take that lightly. 

Judges should follow the rules. Gesture - people should go with strict interpretation.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"Gestures, or any other form of intimidation."

That means it can be more than gestures only.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Steve Shaver said:


> Just a difference in the mentality of the people playing the game. Bottom line is it *really isn't necessary in either game* but I can certainly understand and appreciate the enthusiasm of the person in this case because I was standing right there. I may have done the same thing when I was at that point in this game. Now if my dog does an exceptional job he gets lots of atta boys after leaving the line. At the line that bird in his mouth is plenty for the dog.
> Like I said there is a big difference in the mentality of the people playing the different games. Not putting down or talking up either side, just the way of it. For example I see most people at hunt tests *yelling *over or back with every cast. At a trial a verbal cast is only used when it is needed. You tell me which is intimidation. Neither or both? It's all in the interpretation but I will tell you that in this particular case the word intimidation never should have entered the conversation.



Good point…I understand what you are saying. 
I believe intimidation goes along the line of being in the gray area…each their own interpret what they perceive based on their views and others. Their decision is then based on that. 
If you really want intimidation…how about getting yell at in training for screwing up…IMO that is true intimidation…Lol.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Cant believe this has gone on this long. Also cant believe anyone including the judge would have a problem with this. Again This was NOT AN ISSUE TO ANYONE


Ahhh but in the RTF culture mountains can be made of moll hills, it happens almost everyday, the only surprising thing about this one is that it didn't turn into gobbledygook after page 1.


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## fowlminded (Mar 8, 2010)

I will add my little story in on this.

I was a hunt test about a month ago and was watching the senior stake. There was a handler there who's dog needed one pass to earn his title. He needed one pass for the last 3 tests, every test he would break on the honor. Sunday he passes the land, on to water. Simple double with an angle entry and exit blind. Dog nails the test he whoops and hollers, everyone else was laughing at him and yelling that he still had to honor. He moves to the honor station and heels his dog, once the working dog came to the line he bent over top his dog YELLING sit, sit, sit!!! Almost in the dogs face, judges never said a word to him. But then karma comes into play. After his dog honored he threw his hands up in the air showboating and started walking off with the dog at heel as he continued to play the crowd. 30 yards from the honor station his dog bolts back into the test.....he forgot to put the lead on his dog before he started show boating.....Dog failed.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Not to dragged into the interpretation of rules, but just an aside ... there are a lot of ways the unscrupulous can intimidate a dog, some of them are pretty underhand and it needs an observant judge to spot it.

Eug


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Before I would charge a handler with intimidation and eliminate the dog from competition/participation, the dog would have to exhibit behavior to show it was in fact being intimidated. To me, it's not so much what the handler does as it is what the dog's response to the handler is. I would also need to confer with my co-judge to ensure we were in agreement. -Paul


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

So handler stops dog, toot, casts and dog scallops. Stop dog, toot then blows second whistle, toooot. Intimidation? 
Handler stops dog in front of slot, toot, then Goood! Casts through slot.??


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

paul young said:


> Before I would charge a handler with intimidation and eliminate the dog from competition/participation, the dog would have to exhibit behavior to show it was in fact being intimidated. To me, it's not so much what the handler does as it is what the dog's response to the handler is. I would also need to confer with my co-judge to ensure we were in agreement. -Paul


Is three reason in your mind to consult the committee and report to AKC Paul, or depends on circumstance, relative severity? Real question, not rhetorical


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thomas D said:


> "Gestures, or any other form of intimidation."
> 
> That means it can be more than gestures only.


I think you need more concrete evidence than a word or strong tone of voice.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

Don't worry so much about the all the rules and just have a good time, let the chips fall where they may.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I think you need more concrete evidence than a word or strong tone of voice.


And I think you need more concrete evidence that the rule means gestures only. If the writers meant gestures the wouldn't added the comma and added "or any other form......".


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Breck said:


> So handler stops dog, toot, casts and dog scallops. Stop dog, toot then blows second whistle, toooot. Intimidation?
> Handler stops dog in front of slot, toot, then Goood! Casts through slot.??


Good point, Breck.

A double tap or sweating the dog a little before the cast is not uncommon and are most likely done precisely to intimidate just a smidge to make sure Rover is on the side of the angels. If I sweated my dog to get that cast off a point in a trial, I would not be happy about being dropped as common a practice as it is but would understand--if I need it I am probably on the edge of being dropped anyway. If I was dropped for an 'atta boy', I would be furious.

What about pulling the black whistle out of your pocket and holding it like a transmitter on the honor? Lots of tricks that range from pretty innocent (usually a last resort if things are not going well) to obviously done to intimidate.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Not to dragged into the interpretation of rules, but just an aside ... there are a lot of ways the unscrupulous can intimidate a dog, some of them are pretty underhand and it needs an observant judge to spot it.
> 
> Eug


For sure . Like the one where the handler jingles a choke chain in their pocket while walking to heel with the judge .
And a myriad of more .


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> For sure . Like the one where the handler jingles a choke chain in their pocket while walking to heel with the judge .
> And a myriad of more .


. 
A pro here did the same thing using coins in pocket.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Is three reason in your mind to consult the committee and report to AKC Paul, or depends on circumstance, relative severity? Real question, not rhetorical


First, let me say I have never needed to confer with a co-judge on intimidation, let alone drop one.

For me to do this, it would have to be severe. The dog would need to be exhibiting behavior that it was scared by something the handler did with their body or said.

Reporting to the committee would need to be even more severe; kicking or striking the dog or leashing the dog in a vicious manner comes to mind. Luckily I haven't had to do that yet, either. -Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> And I think you need more concrete evidence that the rule means gestures only. If the writers meant gestures the wouldn't added the comma and added "or any other form......".


Which is what they did in the FT rules. They left out the comma and additional wording.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> .
> A pro here did the same thing using coins in pocket.


There once was a pro long ago and no longer with us who wore white cotton work gloves when handling some dogs, the story was that in training for the sticky ones the fingers were loaded with washers.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

paul young said:


> First, let me say I have never needed to confer with a co-judge on intimidation, let alone drop one.
> 
> For me to do this, it would have to be severe. The dog would need to be exhibiting behavior that it was scared by something the handler did with their body or said.
> 
> Reporting to the committee would need to be even more severe; kicking or striking the dog or leashing the dog in a vicious manner comes to mind. Luckily I haven't had to do that yet, either. -Paul


Thank you Paul - glad you've never had to do anything like that. I know you've judged many many times.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

DoubleHaul said:


> Good point, Breck.
> 
> A double tap or sweating the dog a little before the cast is not uncommon and are most likely done precisely to intimidate just a smidge to make sure Rover is on the side of the angels. If I sweated my dog to get that cast off a point in a trial, I would not be happy about being dropped as common a practice as it is but would understand--if I need it I am probably on the edge of being dropped anyway. If I was dropped for an 'atta boy', I would be furious.
> 
> What about pulling the black whistle out of your pocket and holding it like a transmitter on the honor? Lots of tricks that range from pretty innocent (usually a last resort if things are not going well) to obviously done to intimidate.


 I was kinda wondering why some folks wore black gloves during a trial?
Also…I have seen the ecollar without the unit that was strapped on pretty tight on dog that was running a junior test.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> I was kinda wondering why some folks wore black gloves during a trial?
> Also…I have seen the ecollar without the unit that was strapped on pretty tight on dog that was running a junior test.


Black gloves are for contrast, if white blends with the sky hand movement in a black glove may be visible, has nothing to do with a transmitter. I doubt that a dog could even identify a transmitter at 300 yards nor would it matter.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

The coin / chain thing is as old as the hills. 

I grew up with the throw chain as a legitimate training tool amongst the Spaniel guys; saw one in use by a 'keeper just a couple of years back. One incident I had in mind was the Trialler who like many of us always wore the traditional flat cap. Just before he cast the dog off he'd touch the brim and readjust the fit, a common enough nervous gesture; only in his case the dog nearly **** itself. A friend of mine was dropped from a working test (not a Trial) for carrying the dog's folded up lead as he approached the line; harsh, but he never made that mistake again.

Some folks are pretty cute at this Trialling business. I know of a well regarded man in the Spaniel world who took a "wounded" bird from his dog that clearly wasn't; the dog had "pegged" it. When the judge examined the bird it had suddenly and amazingly developed a broken leg. Very strong fingers some of these North Country ex 'keepers have!

A bit like Angelo Dundee slitting Ali's glove to gain recovery time after Henry Cooper had decked him; you can deplore the event if you like, but still admire the quick thinking and sleight of hand. 

Eug


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Just heard that a man was dropped from the Am for patting his dog on the head and saying good dog after picking up the last bird...It wasn't the good dog that probably got him dropped ...the very intimidating gesture...Steve S


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

EdA said:


> Black gloves are for contrast, if white blends with the sky hand movement in a black glove may be visible, has nothing to do with a transmitter. I doubt that a dog could even identify a transmitter at 300 yards nor would it matter.


Thanks for the explanation of wearing black gloves.
I was always curious as to why and didn't approach them for the reason. 
I now know...


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