# First born, Second born, Last born, in your litter?



## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

I have a theory, gut only cause I'm not a breeder, but the few litters I have had seem to produce the best dogs early in the canal.
They are usually stronger, more aggressive, smarter and easier to train. Talking labs here only, thanks, no other breeds.
Anyone else, (esp. you breeders from WI seen this).
God love you all and best for 2016.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

I haven't seen that ; however; I'm starting to believe that EIC carriers may have something.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

It's funny you should mention that. At one point I noticed that I kept more 'first born' puppies than other birth positions. 

However, I've also noticed more first born puppies pass away as neonates than other birth positions. 

Conclusion: every litter has a first born. Not every litter has a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.... therefore, the first born is more likely to be 'any given trait' over the grand scheme of things, just by sheer odds.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

And tell me. A big litter of all blacks or all yellows what do to identify birth orders.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

torg said:


> And tell me. A big litter of all blacks or all yellows what do to identify birth orders.


Tie a piece of colored yarn on them or paint them with nailpolish, or mark em with rick rack, velcro etc etc


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

torg said:


> And tell me. A big litter of all blacks or all yellows what do to identify birth orders.


As what Mark said and at two weeks I microchip them cause when they get active they will lose the make shift collars.


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## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

My puppies wear litter collars. I dry them, check and tie their cords, suction if needed. Then in put a collar on them. I write down which pup was born at what time, does the placenta come out or not, and their weight. So I can easily keep up with who comes out first. I haven't had a ton of litters and have only kept two pups back. Neither were first born. It also depends what you are doing to evaluate and pick your pup. Do color, gender, conformation, or genetic test results factor in?


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

weathered said:


> My puppies wear litter collars. I dry them, check and tie their cords, suction if needed. Then in put a collar on them. I write down which pup was born at what time, does the placenta come out or not, and their weight. So I can easily keep up with who comes out first. I haven't had a ton of litters and have only kept two pups back. Neither were first born. It also depends what you are doing to evaluate and pick your pup. Do color, gender, conformation, or genetic test results factor in?


Well yes my dogs are all black, gender is not a factor as I have one female that will out run any male, conformation ? they all look great, all are tested, some EIC carriers/clear too early to tell if the carrier is better than the clear.... but I will you.
Right now I would say the Carrier is the DOG


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Thank goodness for EIC carriers. It leaves some really good pups for the non-elites.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

IMO you should never wish EIC on a dog... Bad deal for you and your dog... A good pup is a great buy, especially when you get a deal... But hopefully we can breed out of it soon...


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Wait, wait, wait... this dog (spayed) is an EIC carrier. She will never suffer the disease. There is an on-going controversy about the impact of eliminating all the FC and AFC lines that carry the gene. (Even if, theoretically, you could do it by waving a magic wand or something.) When you start systematically eliminating an allele for a gene, you don't know what other genes you may be eliminating with it. Me, I'm really glad that this breeding was done and I have the dog I do.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Birth Order, I have no idea, I just see a bunch of black pups, that hopefully thrive, couldn't tell yah who was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, born. Doesn't really matter to me, I'll keep who I want, once they develop into something I can actually see a difference.

Now I do believe there's something to EIC carrier status. I Bred to a Carrier, Kept a Carrier. Some how when we tested all the dogs in the group the ones with more ump and better markers came back carriers. Also, it seems that most of the Great Dogs that I like to watch and want to breed to are usually carriers, so perhaps there's something there. IMO No need to get rid of the Gene, especially if the carrier status offers any bit of an edge, it's not as if the test is all of the suddenly gonna disappear. It's a tool to be used, a very easy tool to use and never have a chance of producing an affected pup. Affected is the problem, not being a carrier.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

The owner of my dog's dam was in that position. There was an FC/AFC stud that he really admired, and thought the stud's temperament and qualities would compliment those of his FC female. I am pretty sure it was the sire that carried the single copy of the gene and the female was clear. Mendelian genetics would have predicted that half the pups would be carriers. 

I think there were 9 pups in the litter, of whom my dog was the most gung ho when they watched the litter closely and did those early assessments. There is no way I would have lucked into her if she were not a carrier.


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## Whateverxvii (Jan 14, 2022)

It's total bullshit. Born first, second, third last, whatever that has no definite say on a pup's position. Safe to say however all are naturally are subordinates to their parents.


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## torg56601 (Nov 19, 2021)

Breeder here of hundreds of pups. There is no evidence of greater ability according to birth order. I have had buyers asked about the birth order of pups. I am not sure where this theory ever evolved but would like to know. Does not even make common since. Birth order has no bearing on pups being stronger, more aggressive, smarter and easier to train.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I would guess about half of all people are superstitious to some extent and about a quarter take it to an extreme.


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