# Walk-up flyers in hunt tests?



## maliretriever (May 28, 2006)

Can one incorporate this safely in ht? Would you ever use this in a Senior level?
Thanks!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I don't see why it would be more difficult to safely set up a flier for a walk-up than any other flier.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I would have to say, as Lisa Van loo used to say, it depends. With proper available grounds I think you could. However live birds are tricky they like to change direction and distance requirements of the walk up are close. The no attention-getting part would be tossed out the window with the noise of getting the live birds out of the crate letting them flap a bit and exercise and get ready to fly. And like I said it depends on the grounds you don't want the live Gunners shooting your walk up live flyer aiming at the rest of your workers out in the field. Or the gallery gosh people get miffed when you shoot at the gallery. Then of course you get to the deep philosophical question of sure you can do it at this time at this place, but do you need to? Might be fun with a chukar out of a box trap there's something to chew on!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

maliretriever said:


> Can one incorporate this safely in ht? Would you ever use this in a Senior level?
> Thanks!


The shorter distance, required with no attention getting device would make it challenging to setup. But if you had the necessary angels to make it safe; gun handling safe-poorly controlled senior level dogs safe. Yep could do it. Now would you do it in Senior, if judges wanted to go home early, or enjoyed watching dogs. A) Break B) Never see the second mark; and if they managed to stay probably handle on it. Sure could be a test; but what could be vs. what should be to fairly test a senior level dog are different. A out of order flyer in senior = dog handling, even without it being a walk-up bird. It's a test more about control than anything else, not sure that's what I want to judge at the senior level. Rather see them count to 2 (with challenging marks) and judge control on blinds, but that's just me. In master on the other hand; well "no crying in masters"; bring it on.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I don't see why it would be more difficult to safely set up a flier for a walk-up than any other flier.


I can see where you wouldn't see the problem in light of your stated position of not caring to read the "jumbled mess" ....of the rule book that governs our sport.

Once again;....If you don't care to search through the " jumbled mess" of a rule book that governs our sport then why do you feel the need to give your uninformed opinion about what it may or may not say?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

An 'evil' judge would

Set up a walk up on water, with a sluiced bird and an honor. hahahaha!:snipersmile::snipersmile::snipersmile:

All kidding aside, how would one be certain the bird landed within the distance parameters of the rules? How would you deal with the undoubted occurrence of no birds because one sailed or flew too far or turned and flew the wrong (unsafe) direction? Hard enough dealing with fliers on marks without the distance/safety concerns. If you wanted to 'be sure' most fliers landed with the 45yd distance, you'd have to be shooting them at what? 15 yd from the line?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

tigerfan said:


> I can see where you wouldn't see the problem in light of your stated position of not caring to read the "jumbled mess" ....of the rule book that governs our sport.
> 
> Once again;....If you don't care to search through the " jumbled mess" of a rule book that governs our sport then why do you feel the need to give your uninformed opinion about what it may or may not say?


Another helpful post from the RTF resident ass.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Years ago when I was running a 'started' test in Missouri. A 'walk up' with a flyer was set up at the initial starting line of the test. We were told to walk up to the line with the dog on lead or at heel, then release the lead (if one was used). When the dog sit, immediately they would call for the release of a flyer followed by a shot, hopefully, hitting the flyer. Now this set up was behind a large bush, at the line on your right side as you got to the line.

At this level, 'Started' many dogs 'broke' or just freaked out. A few sit tight until released....but it seemed a hard test for a young dog running at that level.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Swampcollielover.... Was that a HRC?, "started" test? 

Just curious..


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> Swampcollielover.... Was that a HRC?, "started" test?
> 
> Just curious..


Yep! Over the years we have run hunt test, I probably ran in 4-5 HRC tests....I prefer AKC!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

swampcollielover said:


> Yep! Over the years we have run hunt test, I probably ran in 4-5 HRC tests....I prefer AKC!


Illegal HRC Started test..

Started dogs are not required to be steady.. Dogs are brought to line on lead.. they are restrained by a lead or hand held under the collar...
as marks are shown. 
A handler CAN run the dog without restraining it... if the dog breaks, its an automatic failer..

Judges during all the started tests I have run, and those I've Judged have always HIGHLY encouraged Started handlers to take advantage of the rules and restrain the dog

Junior dogs in AKC are allowed to be restrained at the line also, until release command by the judge is given..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I am surprised a Hunt committee approved the test! 

No started handler questioned the test??


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

MooseGooser said:


> I am surprised a Hunt committee approved the test!
> 
> No started handler questioned the test??


Hey Gooser swamp collie lover has at
best a tenuous relationship with reality..

Not only is it against the rules as you point out none of the HRC clubs in Missouri shoot Flyers


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Tobias said:


> An 'evil' judge would
> 
> Set up a walk up on water, with a sluiced bird and an honor. hahahaha!:snipersmile::snipersmile::snipersmile:
> 
> All kidding aside, how would one be certain the bird landed within the distance parameters of the rules? How would you deal with the undoubted occurrence of no birds because one sailed or flew too far or turned and flew the wrong (unsafe) direction? Hard enough dealing with fliers on marks without the distance/safety concerns. If you wanted to 'be sure' most fliers landed with the 45yd distance, you'd have to be shooting them at what? 15 yd from the line?


Tobias, the bird does NOT have to land within 45yds, of the line. It has to be presented no more than 45yds.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Hey Gooser swamp collie lover has at
> best a tenuous relationship with reality..
> 
> Not only is it against the rules as you point out none of the HRC clubs in Missouri shoot Flyers



I wanted to add that I have never seen a flyer at a HRC test at any level... BUT,, I have been told HRC does shoot flyers in regions across the country..


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

You could do it safely with good gunners and the right grounds, I suppose, but... 

People actually involved in the training and development of young dogs generally have some limitations in mind as to what they expect from a SH level dog. They seek to test without setting up situations that could easily develop into problems for the dog's future development. 

I've seen a fair number of test set ups including the ones we ran when I was training Ozzy. They were characterized by challenging scenarios that matched and slightly pushed the dog's skill level. Square water entries, relatively simple blinds, reasonable expectations of line manners, etc. etc.. 

In that vein one would have to ask themselves if a walk up flier in a SH is a good test for a young dog or a cheap way to eliminate a bunch of otherwise good performers. 

If someone threw it at my dog and me I wouldn't ever complain about it but, it seems like it could easily be viewed as a "cheap shot" by people who hadn't trained to a high enough level before entering their dog. We see a lot of those in SH from what I recall.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Swampcollielover:
I am right there with ya as afr as maybe rembering things differently or for me anyways reading comprehension...

I get it..I am still stuck on WHY Jack and Jill went UP a hill to fetch a a pail water,,,, when everybody knows water runs downhill...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> Swampcollielover:
> I am right there with ya as afr as maybe rembering things differently or for me anyways reading comprehension...
> 
> I get it..I am still stuck on WHY Jack and Jill went UP a hill to fetch a a pail water,,,, when everybody knows water runs downhill...


Along with many other things


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Golddogs said:


> Tobias, the bird does NOT have to land within 45yds, of the line. It has to be presented no more than 45yds.


Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> Swampcollielover.... Was that a HRC?, "started" test?
> 
> Just curious..


Yes, and we did not like it! Those of us that ran the test were pretty upset at this being run in a 'started' test! But it was, what it was....

I stopped running HRC tests after running a few, their attempt to make the tests more like actual hunting, compared to the AKC tests, just did not work well for me. We had much more success running AKC tests.....


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

tigerfan said:


> Hey Gooser swamp collie lover has at
> best a tenuous relationship with reality..
> 
> Not only is it against the rules as you point out none of the HRC clubs in Missouri shoot Flyers



So TigerLilly strikes again! Just because I always embarrass you with your radical Liberal Posts on the Political Part of RTF, you should not carry your rantings into other posts! I know these folks can and will judge my posts without babble coming from you.....so go back to political attacks and leave us alone!


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> I wanted to add that I have never seen a flyer at a HRC test at any level... BUT,, I have been told HRC does shoot flyers in regions across the country..



You heard correctly, back when I ran this test, they did use flyers in that test! My Golden that ran that test passed away two weeks ago...! He was a great duck dog and pretty good at flushing pheasant...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

swampcollielover said:


> Yes, and we did not like it! Those of us that ran the test were pretty upset at this being run in a 'started' test! But it was, what it was....
> 
> I stopped running HRC tests after running a few, their attempt to make the tests more like actual hunting, compared to the AKC tests, just did not work well for me. We had much more success running AKC tests.....



I understand..


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My understanding as to the initial roots of HRC tests, they did a bunch of different hunting items-scenarios that would be strictly illegal today. Including GASP (FLYERS IN STARTED). The rule-book was indeed written for a reason .

Today if such scenarios were put up; first the hunt test committee would flag them, then the Rep. then the contestants. Heck everyone would be in Conduct Meetings all afternoon and never run a dog. The HRC rulebook is the most clearly defined book in terms of what you CANNOT do (distance requirements, separation, cover-changes etc). There were reasons, it had to be. Southern boys-Hunters were very inventive, when initially creating the venue. Sounds like those first tests were a Kick, before everything was boggled down with rules LOL .


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> My understanding as to the initial roots of HRC tests, they did a bunch of different hunting items-scenarios that would be strictly illegal today. Including GASP (FLYERS IN STARTED). The rule-book was indeed written for a reason .
> 
> Today if such scenarios were put up; first the hunt test committee would flag them, then the Rep. then the contestants. Heck everyone would be in Conduct Meetings all afternoon and never run a dog. The HRC rulebook is the most clearly defined book in terms of what you CANNOT do (distance requirements, separation, cover-changes etc). There were reasons, it had to be. Southern boys-Hunters were very inventive, when initially creating the venue. Sounds like those first tests were a Kick, before everything was boggled down with rules LOL .



I'm not GASPING at a flyer in Started...… I am pointing out that as far back as I can remember (ran first started test somewhere around 2000 or so) a Started dog was not required to be steady.. They were required run at the line on a leash, or, held by hand under a collar.. (You could run the dog without restraint if you wanted, but if the dog breaks,, you fail)

Swampcollie stated many dogs BROKE!

He also stated handlers were instructed by judges to drop leash at some point and have dog unrestrained. Thus requiring the dog to be steady... All levels in HRC rules state a BREAK is an automatic failer.. (Note I did not say a CONTROLLED break)… I would be all for flyers in HRC tests at all levels..

I only have HRC rule books starting around the year 2000.. I will concede I do not know what the requirements were before then.. I concede the point..

At the point in time, I started running HRC, Swamps test would be Illegal..
Like I said, I am surprised a Hunt committee approved it..
I am surprised handlers didn't call the judges on it..



Mike Baker


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

To Demean myself!!!! 

GD it Gooser! The OP asked about a friggin SENIOR test!! I wouuld think you would have learned to read by now..!!

And dang it! To top it off his focus was on SAFTY (is safty ty or tey)

We wasn't asked to bash Venues!!

Way to Hyjack a perfectly GREAT thread!!

self mutilation regards:

Gooser….er I mean Mike Baker


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This is a typical Senior test.. Pretend walk up bird is flyer.. (It isnt in vid)

Flyer is thrown right angle back into open field out of the test

I think its safe..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Please no remarks about Honor dog and what happened?'s

No comments about what judges did or shoulda did..

People are humans.. Stuff happens..

This dogs first walkup (Don't ask) and first HT..


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> My understanding as to the initial roots of HRC tests, they did a bunch of different hunting items-scenarios that would be strictly illegal today. Including GASP (FLYERS IN STARTED). The rule-book was indeed written for a reason .
> 
> Today if such scenarios were put up; first the hunt test committee would flag them, then the Rep. then the contestants. Heck everyone would be in Conduct Meetings all afternoon and never run a dog. The HRC rulebook is the most clearly defined book in terms of what you CANNOT do (distance requirements, separation, cover-changes etc). There were reasons, it had to be. Southern boys-Hunters were very inventive, when initially creating the venue. Sounds like those first tests were a Kick, before everything was boggled down with rules LOL .


There would be no "conduct meeting", whatever that is.

Live birds are specifically prohibited in HRC Started tests. Page 37, second paragraph. -Paul


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Please no remarks about Honor dog and what happened?'s
> 
> No comments about what judges did or shoulda did..
> 
> ...


No comment on the judges, but one of them was in the kitchen so I made her come in here and watch. Brings back a lot of memories.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

maliretriever said:


> Can one incorporate this safely in ht? Would you ever use this in a Senior level?
> Thanks!


Yes, it can be done safely.

No, it's a bad idea. It would be difficult to make it the "surprise" bird. It's also a bigger test of steadiness than is necessary for Senior. 

A better use of the flyer in a senior walk-up double would be to make it the longer of the 2 as the go bird. -Paul


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> Please no remarks about Honor dog and what happened?'s
> 
> No comments about what judges did or shoulda did..
> 
> ...



why not???? One of my all time favorite memories of Hunt Test days! 🤣🐾🐾🤣


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> Yes, it can be done safely.
> 
> No, it's a bad idea. It would be difficult to make it the "surprise" bird. It's also a bigger test of steadiness than is necessary for Senior.
> 
> A better use of the flyer in a senior walk-up double would be to make it the longer of the 2 as the go bird. -Paul


I agree! Longer go bird as flyer..


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> I'm not GASPING at a flyer in Started...… I am pointing out that as far back as I can remember (ran first started test somewhere around 2000 or so) a Started dog was not required to be steady.. They were required run at the line on a leash, or, held by hand under a collar.. (You could run the dog without restraint if you wanted, but if the dog breaks,, you fail)
> 
> Swampcollie stated many dogs BROKE!
> 
> ...


Mike, I recall the same detail you provided above. We were allowed to bring the dog to the line on lead, and could hold the collars! I do not recall saying we had to drop the lead and then heal to the line? Regardless, that is not what we were required to do. When I said 'break' my recollection was that many at the line, took off the lead and then held the collar until the pups settled at the line. When the flyer was released and shot, many of the pups went a bit crazy...many wanted to go get it, other were scarred and just wanted to get away. I don't recall many actually 'breaking' away, but it was difficult to settle the pups for the mark. Many failed as the pups had no idea where the mark was...

Yes, many of us challenged the judges during and after the test, but to know avail!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Swamp

I am only responding because you mention me in your last post..

The pupose of a walk-up is to test STEADYNESS! STARTED dogs are not required to be steady. You restrain the dog with a leash, or bt holding them by a collar for their MARKING tests.. If you read the rules that describe the required elements of a STARTED Test,,a Walk-up isn't one of them,,, because,,, the dogs arnt required to be STEADY YET!!

Paul Young also stated another RULE of the program, that LIVE BIRDS are not allowed in STARTED.. Another reason, your test was illegal..

Your HRC STARTED test was Illegal for HRC tests,,for many reasons.. An HRC hunt committee wouldn't have approved the test.. Thats all I am saying.. ANND in addition, a STARTED test in HRC isnt what the OP asked about.. He specifically asked about SENIOR AKC..

Have a good day Swamp.. I wont respond any further.. I don't know how to be more clear..


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Starting this Saturday the rules say I can do three walk up flyers a day on pheasants. Could be more if there are some no birds.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> My understanding as to the initial roots of HRC tests, they did a bunch of different hunting items-scenarios that would be strictly illegal today. Including GASP (FLYERS IN STARTED). The rule-book was indeed written for a reason .
> 
> Today if such scenarios were put up; first the hunt test committee would flag them, then the Rep. then the contestants. Heck everyone would be in Conduct Meetings all afternoon and never run a dog. The HRC rulebook is the most clearly defined book in terms of what you CANNOT do (distance requirements, separation, cover-changes etc). There were reasons, it had to be. Southern boys-Hunters were very inventive, when initially creating the venue. Sounds like those first tests were a Kick, before everything was boggled down with rules LOL .


I agree with your perspective.

I am glad someone here considers the 'possibility' of what I experienced. It doesn't matter to me if others accept it or not.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Out with Rules set by a body or committee where potentially any one with a keyboard can scrutinise or quote all manner of rules and looks good on print . ..
Just to get a handle on '*Walk up Flyers' *.. (From this side of the pond) Thanks for your consideration. 
..
Is it , as I understand it . Dog or dogs in pairs ,or even more ..walking to heel Non slip and a bird is released and shot ,and the Dog or all dogs have to be steady to that Shot and fall ,and be cast on command ..Non Slip ?
If it is ,then that would be normal Hunting situation in any shooting field with a Labrador retriever and a gun ,walk up with flyers(birds) ?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

polmaise said:


> If it is ,then that would be normal Hunting situation in any shooting field with a Labrador retriever and a gun ,walk up with flyers(birds) ?


I would say yes. My dog would be quartering the field rather than at heel. Sitting at flush and or shot is the important part.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I would say yes. My dog would be quartering the field rather than at heel. Sitting at flush and or shot is the important part.


I have spaniels that do this . The Retrievers walk at heel. 
For flyers that land 100 yards away from the line I am walking ,those that are quartering are at a disadvantage stopping to shot from that quartering ,than the one at heel looking forward or arc of the gun? ..Each to their own. Flushing and retrieving.
...
Back to '*Walk up Flyers'*. 
Are the birds released from the line ,or further afield ? ..If released from the line then that would be realistically flushed by the walking line and shot within the range of the sporting gun being used . If released from further afield and shot , say 100 yards plus , in front of the walking line ,then that is something else ..? 
(Outwith any rules in a competition) ..Just saying in Real life .


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

polmaise said:


> I have spaniels that do this . The Retrievers walk at heel.
> For flyers that land 100 yards away from the line I am walking ,those that are quartering are at a disadvantage stopping to shot from that quartering ,than the one at heel looking forward or arc of the gun? ..Each to their own. Flushing and retrieving.
> ...
> Back to '*Walk up Flyers'*.
> ...


To help you understand what we are discussing, this, from the Regulations & Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers Retrievers:

"Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior and Master hunting tests, a walk up is used to test a dog’s steadiness. The birds represent a surprise situation therefore gunning stations must be well concealed, utilizing natural cover when possible so that only the bird may be seen when launched. Birds shall be presented at a maximum distance of 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized. " -Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Polmaise:

If you lookat post #27 there is a Video that shows an example of a walk up in a Senior levl test..

The question the OP (originalposter) is asking is if the bird thrown from that walk-up station could be a Live bird. He asks if people think it would be safe, and if anyone has ever seen it done..

Most common written example:

Handler and dog are called to the line. The dog heels with handler.. At a predetermined point along that walk, a DEAD bird is thrown as a surprise to the dog.. The max distance that bird can be thrown from the handler/dog,,is 45 yrds..The reason for the test is to test steadiness.. The dog is off lead.. The dog has to stop, when the bird is thrown. The handler must shoulder the gun,, there Is a shot immediately after the throw. The dog must remain steady as more birds from different guns may be released (Thown) some of those could be live.. After birds are down, Judge gives handler the permission to release dog. Dog retrieves the birds in order the the handler commands.. The Maximum distance from the handler that the walk up bird can be thrown from,, is 45 yards. No attention getting call or shot may be used BEFORE THE THROW... Attention getting shots or calls made be used for the next bird stations... Most common is a duck call

Mike Baker


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I was typing as Paul answered..


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Polmaise:
> 
> If you lookat post #27 there is a Video that shows an example of a walk up in a Senior levl test..
> 
> ...


Thanks Mike.
Would a duck call from the blind be construed as a 'An attention grabber , rather than a surprise ?' .. semantics ..so could a fluff of feathers or rising Rooster I suppose . ..I am yet to be able to throw a dead bird 45 yards ..although I have been doing it for over 45 years ,so I assume these are thrown in front of the walking line non slip , which is invariably a ''Mark'' of 45 Yards ? Is that correct ? ..Excluding rules quoted by any reference of affiliated body . In real life this would be a Puppy retrieve Mark for a gun dog..depending on cover off course , No 10 foot high swamp reeds or walls or fences or water etc ?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The BIRD BOY is behind a hide or behind natural cover that is 45 yards max from where dog will be stopped.. The BIRD BOY doesnt have to throw bird 45 yars. Oly a throw with a highenough arc that the dog has a resonable chanceto seeit when the BIRD BOY fires a blank shot.. 

Duck calls used as attention getters in the AKCvenue, rarely come from the line. the handler rarely blows a call.. The attention getting Calls or shots, come from the BIRD BOYS that are hidden at each individual bird station..The walk up station ,,BY RULE,,can not sound an attention getting call or shot..(A call or shot before the THROW) any remaining bird stations (Birds used for multiple marks) CAN use a call or shot BEFORE THR THROW as an attention getter..

The Flyer staion is Unique to dogs. They learn the difference quickly.. Many know because of multiple people or motion of them when they stand to shoot, noise comming from live birds in crates, ect Ducks especially.. The dogs Know..


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

The gunner (thrower) would be up to 45 yards from the line and there would be no call prior to the throw. As has been said, it is steadiness that is being tested it is supposed to be more tempting than difficult.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Tobias said:


> An 'evil' judge would
> 
> Set up a walk up on water, with a sluiced bird and an honor. hahahaha!:snipersmile::snipersmile::snipersmile:
> 
> All kidding aside, how would one be certain the bird landed within the distance parameters of the rules? ...


The regs require only that the walk-up bird be "presented" 45 yards from the line. It falls where it falls. I've done walk-up flyers and it can be a very juicy mark. Hard to get Phydeaux to turn for the remaining marks though and for that reason I'd likely not do it again unless the field lent itself to the situation.


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

The walk-up in a HT is an archaic criteria that needs to be replaced with good bird placement at reasonable distances. 

There, I said it.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

kajun kamakazi said:


> the walk-up in a ht is an archaic criteria that needs to be replaced with good bird placement at reasonable distances.
> 
> There, i said it.


take cover


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Kajun Kamakazi said:


> The walk-up in a HT is an archaic criteria that needs to be replaced with good bird placement at reasonable distances.
> 
> There, I said it.


Tests with walk-ups and good bird placement are not mutually exclusive. 

There, I said it. -Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Kajun Kamakazi said:


> The walk-up in a HT is an archaic criteria that needs to be replaced with good bird placement at reasonable distances.
> 
> There, I said it.



I understand why some think this.. BUT,,

Judges have a Lot of leniency as to when and how to insert the required part called a walkup into a test.
A walk-ups only purpose is to test steadiness.. Tests steadiness under a surprise flush of a bird.. Its NOT sit to flush..

Its just my Humble opinion,, I am NOT a Judge, so take that into consideration, but still its my opinion, that if AKC really believes that “MARKING is of Primary importance”, then having a walk-up included as one of the birds of a multiple marking situation, hinders JUDGING a dogs MARKING ability..

On a walk-up test, dog comes out of holding blind and is surprised by a flush of a hidden bird.. The gun is hidden. There is nothing to draw the dogs attention that something is about to happen ..When the walk up is thrown, many times the dog is out of position in relationship to the handler. With that in mind, this effects the dogs ability to be given a fair chance to SEE the remaining marks of a multiple MARKING test.

If you deliberately hide guns, if you deliberately make it difficult for the dog to see (Huge swings between birds) If you “surprise” the dog with a mark.ect.. How can you say as a JUDGE, that you are testing MARKING,, and you believe MARKING is of PRIMARY importance??

IMHO, to fairly test Marking,, a dog should be given every opportunity to see the bird. A Judge should go to extra efforts to make it so.. He shouldn’t have it in the back of his mind, ,”The dog SHOULD have seen it” If he is hiding everything, or surprising the dog.
.
So, the REQUIRED element of a senior AKC hunt test called a walk-up, Should be a separate entity, and carefully thought out WHEN it is used in a test.. A dog and handler could be placed at the line, with the dog having excellent vision of the field where the marks are going to be presented.. They can be hidden. Each bird, before it is thrown, can have something that draws the dogs attention to that area.. the handler and dog work as a team to look to SEE those falls. The dog retrieves those birds, with the JUDGE scrutinizing IF the dog “GOES DIRECTLY TO THE AREA OF FALL, AND ESTABLISHES ITS FIRST HUNT THERE.” They are PRIMARILY judging MARKING..

The walk-up could be inserted, as the dog and handler, move to a different line, or spot to run a blind retrieve. OR, the blinds could be separate from the marking test, and the walk up is included then.. The walk –up is thrown, the dog retrieves it,, then the dog runs a blind..

Remember, we are talking about a SENIOR level test.

I personally don’t like walk-ups INCLUDED as a bird in a MARKING set –up. JMHO. I guess I could have just simply said that!! ...


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Kajun Kamakazi said:


> The walk-up in a HT is an archaic criteria that needs to be replaced with good bird placement at reasonable distances.
> 
> There, I said it.


Your opinion is widely supported amongst many running AKC hunt tests. My opinion differs. A walkup thrown from natural cover with a flyer station behind will provide answers. Well placed bird or trick? Do you feel breaking birds are not useful testing "hunting dogs"? They are certainly realistic, provide answers and are very time efficient.

Variety is the spice of life and a difference in opinion doesn't make either opinion less valid.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

fishduck said:


> A walkup thrown from natural cover with a flyer station behind will provide answers.


Sounds like a good test, certainly better than two or three marks thrown from behind as many blatantly obvious 4'x8' rectangles that the dogs spot long before getting to the line.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Page 37


(1) Steadiness. Dogs on line sometimes make various types of movements when game is in the air (and/or when it is shot). These movements may be interpreted as efforts by the dogs to improve their view of the fall, and some occur through sheer excitement.* Except for an occasional change in position in order to better see a fall, all such movements could be viewed as unsteadiness*—with Trainability scored depending on the Test being judged and the extent and the frequency of the unsteadiness. The requirement of steadiness is a very important factor in evaluating the Trainability of a Retriever.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Page 37
> 
> 
> (1) Steadiness. Dogs on line sometimes make various types of movements when game is in the air (and/or when it is shot). These movements may be interpreted as efforts by the dogs to improve their view of the fall, and some occur through sheer excitement.* Except for an occasional change in position in order to better see a fall, all such movements could be viewed as unsteadiness*—with Trainability scored depending on the Test being judged and the extent and the frequency of the unsteadiness. The requirement of steadiness is a very important factor in evaluating the Trainability of a Retriever.


Not Your Games , but 'steadiness' is the same world wide ..? Some have different interpretations for it ,and usually to suit their requirements.
....
I was competing in an Open level Spaniel Field trial ,Bird flushed by the dog straight from her nose and instantly stopped with No whistle, Bird was shot and landed over a small Crest of cover . The dog lifted one paw and shifted seat position ,I was eliminated . If the dog had raised it'self like a Meerkat to gain better sight of the fall It would have been Credited. 
..
Competing in an Open Retriever Field trial , I had a dog creep two paces forward when walking in a line ,but never ever Broke or Ran in on any shot bird or ground game ! I was eliminated for Poor heelwork . 
I would take both these dogs on any Live shoot with Fur or Feather anywhere in the World ! But how else do you separate a bunch of Good dogs competing on the same day at any one time . ? lol 
...
Try it with Live game where the dog or handler , or Judge doesn't know where or when the Game will flush , when walking in a line .


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

As far as the logistics of the test goes I fail to see why a walk up flyer would be any different than a regular flyer. I love walkups. You get a chance to say sit while the bird is shot and your holding a heeling stick, I mean gun;-). To me, with my dogs anyway they are more likely to break when sitting and waiting building anticipation rather than a surprise walk up.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> As far as the logistics of the test goes I fail to see why a walk up flyer would be any different than a regular flyer. I love walkups. You get a chance to say sit while the bird is shot and your holding a heeling stick, I mean gun;-). To me, with my dogs anyway they are more likely to break when sitting and waiting building anticipation rather than a surprise walk up.


I thought you said you didn't run Hunt Tests?  -Paul


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

paul young said:


> I thought you said you didn't run Hunt Tests?  -Paul





Havent for awhile but that's what got me started with dogs, well actually hunting got me started with dogs. Havent run one for 4 or 5 years. Would like to run a few but save my entry fees for what I would rather do. And what's your point Just trying to stir the pot?:roll::roll: Just because I no longer run them doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

My long term plan is to run one hunt test per year so I'm entitled to an opinion. The walk up is obviously a concept a hunting retriever needs to be adept at. It would be very time consuming to test a number of dogs on a good walk-up scenario. The "surprise bird" while walking at heel to the line isn't really much of a surprise.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Havent for awhile but that's what got me started with dogs, well actually hunting got me started with dogs. Havent run one for 4 or 5 years. Would like to run a few but save my entry fees for what I would rather do. And what's your point Just trying to stir the pot?:roll::roll: Just because I no longer run them doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion


Usually pros don't run their own dogs in opens against their client dogs.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

fishduck said:


> Your opinion is widely supported amongst many running AKC hunt tests. My opinion differs. A walkup thrown from natural cover with a flyer station behind will *provide answers*. Well placed bird or trick? Do you feel breaking birds are not useful testing "hunting dogs"? They are certainly realistic, *provide answers* and are very time efficient.
> 
> Variety is the spice of life and a difference in opinion doesn't make either opinion less valid.


In my mind, judges only need "answers" when placing dogs. In field trials, answers are very important. In hunt tests, I just want to be judged against the standard.


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Usually pros don't run their own dogs in opens against their client dogs.



I don't think that's true. I can think of several that do off the top of my head.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

dr_dog_guy said:


> ErinsEdge said:
> 
> 
> > Usually pros don't run their own dogs in opens against their client dogs.
> ...


Either way how is that relevant to a walk up flyer and hunt test?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Either way how is that relevant to a walk up flyer and hunt test?


 was wondering the same.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Dave Farrar said:


> In my mind, judges only need "answers" when placing dogs. In field trials, answers are very important. In hunt tests, I just want to be judged against the standard.


Do you not think whether a hunting dog is steady when a bird flushes wild is a worthwhile question to be answered in a Hunt Test? There are many questions that get answered in a Hunt Test, such as can the dog be handled successfully on a blind retrieve, appropriate to that level of testing, is it's memory of marked falls sufficient, etc.

It's all about getting answers, in my opinion.-Paul


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Usually pros don't run their own dogs in opens against their client dogs.





What's that got to do with a walk up flyer in a hunt test???????????
Most pros don't even own dogs but some do and they run them too


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Farrar said:


> In my mind, judges only need "answers" when placing dogs. In field trials, answers are very important. In hunt tests, I just want to be judged against the standard.


Did the dog meet the standard? That would be the answer you need. Field trials in my mind are not so cut and dry. Not really looking for answers but how the dogs rank. 

Just how I see it and obviously different from your perspective.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

fishduck said:


> Did the dog meet the standard? That would be the answer you need. Field trials in my mind are not so cut and dry. Not really looking for answers but how the dogs rank.
> 
> Just how I see it and obviously different from your perspective.


It really is just semantics. To me, answers in field trials are who did it best, who was 2nd and 3rd... In hunt tests, it's a yes or no answer. I never had a walkup flyer. Plenty of walkups and I actually liked them. I never worried about him breaking on a nasty dead bird. He loves a nice warm flier. Crippled birds are his favorite.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

When I first started in this game, there were many walk-up flyers. Senior and Master A) A walkup is required B) There wasn't the relatively new aka. "dumb" requirement of the walk-up being presented at 45yards; with no attention getting device. Now I understand some judges did put walk-ups way out 100+ yrds etc. so as there was no real point for them to be a walk-up as they were really hard to see and did nothing to test line-control or steadiness. Thus they change the rule, but in doing so they also limited what good judges were allowed to do. IMO it would've and still would be better to instruct judges properly on various elements of tests and what should be looked for with these test elements; Teach them how to use them correctly and test dogs. Rather than changing rules; and tieing everyones hands. A 45yrd walk-up in seniors, sometimes less than that, ensuring the dog see's it, without a quack; Usually means a Senior level dog it's 50/50 he's not gonna see the other longer mark, or that he will have to run past a short bird to get the go bird. Add to that let's make it a flyer and require a young dog to pass up a fresh shot close bird; leave that mark and go to get a dead launched long bird. If the marks aren't wide open, a smart handler will pull the dog and let them get the short birds. otherwise you're risking a young dog getting caught inbtw the 2 marks; or going to the flyer anyway. So now we're requiring a smart handler and secondary selection in senior? Those items are oftentimes lacking in master level


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dont include the walk up bird as 1 of the birds included in the marks.. Leave the MARKS as your bird placement birds,, and Judge Marking..

The walk up could be on the way to the line for the marks.. a Single short Breaking bird, to test steadiness.. Maybe less than 45 yrds.. In your face short..

Or,, it could be on the way to line to run the blind..

Walk up on the way to line to run a blind.. dog stays steady, retrieves the bird. On the way back from that walk up retrieve, the diversion shot is fired to que the blind.. Senior level... especially..


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Dont include the walk up bird as 1 of the birds included in the marks.. Leave the MARKS as your bird placement birds,, and Judge Marking...


Good Suggestion, I have seen them do this in HRC setups, where the walk-up is a separate element, and you'd never see it combined with a double seasoned set of marks. I have as yet never seen a judge do such in AKC, the walk-up has always been part of the double. Now perhaps a judge could do it; I think it would ensure better marks for both doubles as in IMO most of the time the short walk-up takes away from the double. That said, I've been around AKC peeps, and HT peeps in general; when a judge changes the status quo, and perhaps adds a new test-series; people are gonna raise a rukus; AKC reps will be called, committee meeting will be held, legality will be questioned. I'd like to see someone do it though, maybe it will become more standard, akin to those judges who dare to use a Real bird for a diversion rather than just a shot .


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Good Suggestion, I have seen them do this in HRC setups, where the walk-up is a separate element, and you'd never see it combined with a double seasoned set of marks. I have as yet never seen a judge do such in AKC, the walk-up has always been part of the double. Now perhaps a judge could do it; I think it would ensure better marks for both doubles as in IMO most of the time the short walk-up takes away from the double. That said, I've been around AKC peeps, and HT peeps in general; when a judge changes the status quo, and perhaps adds a new test-series; people are gonna raise a rukus; AKC reps will be called, committee meeting will be held, legality will be questioned. I'd like to see someone do it though, maybe it will become more standard, akin to those judges who dare to use a Real bird for a diversion rather than just a shot .


Done it several times. No issue with AKC. Limit is what you have for help , property and sometimes how large an entry.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

From an earlier post by Moosegooser (Mike Baker) 

Quote: If you deliberately hide guns, if you deliberately make it difficult for the dog to see (Huge swings between birds) If you “surprise” the dog with a mark.ect.. How can you say as a JUDGE, that you are testing MARKING,, and you believe MARKING is of PRIMARY importance??

IMHO, to fairly test Marking,, a dog should be given every opportunity to see the bird. A Judge should go to extra efforts to make it so.. He shouldn’t have it in the back of his mind, ,”The dog SHOULD have seen it” If he is hiding everything, or surprising the dog.


​


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> From an earlier post by Moosegooser (Mike Baker)
> 
> Quote: If you deliberately hide guns, if you deliberately make it difficult for the dog to see (Huge swings between birds) If you “surprise” the dog with a mark.ect.. How can you say as a JUDGE, that you are testing MARKING,, and you believe MARKING is of PRIMARY importance??
> 
> ...


Mike, you need to go to page 24 of the regulations.

Read sect 9, paragraph 3. Visible guns in Senior and Master tests are to be avoided. -Paul


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> From an earlier post by Moosegooser (Mike Baker)
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Testing the dogs marking ability would be to test if the dog was looking for where the bird fell ,not where it came from ,and if it wasn't looking at where it may come from then it is merely being assisted .


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Good Suggestion, I have seen them do this in HRC setups, where the walk-up is a separate element, and you'd never see it combined with a double seasoned set of marks. I have as yet never seen a judge do such in AKC, the walk-up has always been part of the double. Now perhaps a judge could do it; I think it would ensure better marks for both doubles as in IMO most of the time the short walk-up takes away from the double. That said, I've been around AKC peeps, and HT peeps in general; when a judge changes the status quo, and perhaps adds a new test-series; people are gonna raise a rukus; AKC reps will be called, committee meeting will be held, legality will be questioned. I'd like to see someone do it though, maybe it will become more standard, akin to those judges who dare to use a Real bird for a diversion rather than just a shot .


I find it weird that you think all kinds of things will result in hearings or meetings.

I have judged well over a hundred Hunt Tests for 3 different organizations and quite a few field trials. I have also participated in a greater number of the same during the past 25 years and have never, not once, seen what you allege would happen.

People are just not that petty, thank god. - Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> Mike, you need to go to page 24 of the regulations.
> 
> Read sect 9, paragraph 3. Visible guns in Senior and Master tests are to be avoided. -Paul


Paul..

Yes! I understand the rules... They require/should hide the GUNS

They require/should have Gunners/BB wear Camo and hide them..

But,,

They are not required to hide the bird,*or make it difficult to see*. IF,, The judge is Judging Marking..

If a Judge hides guns,, Hides gunners,, then on top of that, Deliberately makes the bird hard to see or a surprise..

He may be Judging something, but it isn't Marking.. (JMHO) "Marking is of primary Importance"

I didn't say all this to start an argument. Every Senior and Master walk up I have run has been included as one of the birds in the MARKS.. I am NOT a JUDGE... I am only stating my opinion... Experienced Judges commonly over rule it... Fair enough! I'll run it.! ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Some methods I've seen Judges hide BIRDS

180 degree swings that you have to pull the dog ..

Fast cadences between marks..

deliberately throwing against a bad background..

No attention getting call before a mark..

A deliberate instruction (or winger setting) given for a low. short throw..

Blocks dogs vision at line.. (behind bush, or cattails.)

Just some..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

My personal preference is for a marking test to have (In cases of a triple or Double)

Clearly visible birds with High arcs against a good background
very distinct AOF's

a realistic cadence 

a Challenge to the dog to get to area of fall.
bird easy to find once there.

Then... A judge simply and strictly scrutinizes IF:
1. a dog goes directly to the AOF
2. a dog establishes its first hunt there..
3. finds the bird..

Simply that..


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree totally that the birds should be easy to see.

180 degree swings are found most often in HRC tests, for some reason I can't understand. I submitted a rule change, which would have actually been a new rule, several years ago to limit marking setups to 120 degrees. That is plenty wide enough in my opinion. It was not adopted by the BOD, unfortunately.-Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I dont mind,, as much,, the big swings in venues where you are allowed to talk to the dog..

However,, Most cases, its a deliberate designed way to make the mark difficult for the dog to see..

I know its wrong to bring this up,, but if when you run some tests, you cant talk to the dog,, you have to keep in mind the number of times you handle... A test like this with BIRDS that are basically cloaked.. SOMETIMES you are forced to use one of those handles.. The dog was never really given a fair chance to SEE...

IMHO,, the judges are not judging MARKING... They used the Walk up bird included with the marks to deliberately distract the dog, and not give him a fair opportunity to see the remaining birds.. you get a markdown, if you handle... Not fair to the dog,, and definitely NOT a good representation of what typically happens in a days hunting.. A "Trick" if you will..

P.S. I know I am whining...  constantly...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I will concede... A Lot of dogs, don't have a problem with this.. They do fine..


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Senior tests tend to have a duck call preceding the throw followed by a shot from the station as the bird is at the top of the arc. Most of the time a dog doesn't see the fall, it is because the dog is out of control. The dog is digging a hole in the ground 10 feet in front of the handler, staring at the flyer station or doing a gymnastic display complete with spins and backflips at the handlers side. The dogs that don't see the walkup are usually not heeling well. IMHO the concept that "marking is of primary importance" isn't diminished because of a dogs lack of control.


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## [email protected] (Apr 22, 2018)

I can't understand why anyone would do the HRC upland hunt test. Pretty much everything that they do is bad for hunting. As I have said in regards to the upland hunt test I won't ruin my dog. They do this test and expect me to think that this has something to do with hunting - they're crazy. Retrievers make the best pheasant dogs but if you go out hunting like this you will only bring disgrace and shame to the retriever breeds.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Would you please elaborate on this? What is it that the upland tests do that is bad for hunting?

A Lab can get to be very good on upland game, but in my opinion, they would be hard pressed to best a good Springer or Cocker on Pheasants. -Paul


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I'd like to know also.


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## [email protected] (Apr 22, 2018)

For starters walk at heel, then sit to flush, whether or not they do this waiting to be sent to retrieve will cost you birds, both in finding them and retrieving them. There is nothing about hunting in the hunt test. The dog finds the birds with its nose either tracking or over the air. On the hunt test you may be approaching the bird without consideration for the wind - this is not hunting or at least doing it wrong. There is nothing in the hunt test to properly test the dogs nose (what he/she uses to find the birds). The retriever will go through any cover to get to the bird - either to flush it or retrieve it. A beginning retriever should quarter in front of the hunter. An experienced retriever after learning to hunt may not do this depending on the wind. The hunters skill in reading the dog (able to tell when it smells a pheasant is not tested) is important for the hunter. And of course one of the things that makes a retriever a great pheasant dog is its ability to retrieve cripples and downed birds that it can't see. Another thing that the pointer people think is amazing is that when my dog flushes a bird I'm in position to shoot it. Field trial pointers are terrible at this. At one hunt club in IL where I guided it is mostly people hunting with pointers. After they are finished I go and hunt the same field and clean up any missed birds, any cripples and downed birds that they can not find.
A Golden Retriever makes the best pheasant dog because of its nose they have the ability to catch the scent of a single pheasant at 200 yards, under ideal conditions. When they were first developed Bloodhound was mixed in for the nose and they did a good job.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> For starters walk at heel, then sit to flush, whether or not they do this waiting to be sent to retrieve will cost you birds, both in finding them and retrieving them. There is nothing about hunting in the hunt test. The dog finds the birds with its nose either tracking or over the air. On the hunt test you may be approaching the bird without consideration for the wind - this is not hunting or at least doing it wrong. There is nothing in the hunt test to properly test the dogs nose (what he/she uses to find the birds). The retriever will go through any cover to get to the bird - either to flush it or retrieve it. A beginning retriever should quarter in front of the hunter. An experienced retriever after learning to hunt may not do this depending on the wind. The hunters skill in reading the dog (able to tell when it smells a pheasant is not tested) is important for the hunter. And of course one of the things that makes a retriever a great pheasant dog is its ability to retrieve cripples and downed birds that it can't see. Another thing that the pointer people think is amazing is that when my dog flushes a bird I'm in position to shoot it. Field trial pointers are terrible at this. At one hunt club in IL where I guided it is mostly people hunting with pointers. After they are finished I go and hunt the same field and clean up any missed birds, any cripples and downed birds that they can not find.
> A Golden Retriever makes the best pheasant dog because of its nose they have the ability to catch the scent of a single pheasant at 200 yards, under ideal conditions. When they were first developed Bloodhound was mixed in for the nose and they did a good job.


HRC UPLAND hunt test requires the dog quarter the field... (Don't know what you are talking about with the walk at heel requirement)
The dog must find the bird by quartering and using its nose.. When the bird is located ,the dog MUST flush the bird.. The dog is equired to be steady to wing (Flush) and shot..... As as above ,, whats your problem.?? 

An added detail... What does this have to do with original post?? WALK UPS in Hunt tests.?? A Walk Up is NOT SIT TO Flush.. A walk up mimics a hunter walking with his dog, lets say to the hunting blind,, and along the way, a surprise bird is flushed.. Dog isn't hunting... The bird is a total surprise... They are testing to se if dog is steady... The dog isn't required to sit... 

I think we are talking two different scenarios… HRC test have BOTH and Upland test,, and during the regular hunt tests, they have a required element of a WALK UP..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

A dog training for a typical HRC UPLAND test..

Video was shortened to only show the dog after it quartered the field and made scent..

This vid is NOT an example of a Hunt test walk up.. There IS a Vid of this,, earlier in the thread..





...


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> For starters walk at heel, then sit to flush, whether or not they do this waiting to be sent to retrieve will cost you birds, both in finding them and retrieving them. There is nothing about hunting in the hunt test. The dog finds the birds with its nose either tracking or over the air. On the hunt test you may be approaching the bird without consideration for the wind - this is not hunting or at least doing it wrong. There is nothing in the hunt test to properly test the dogs nose (what he/she uses to find the birds). The retriever will go through any cover to get to the bird - either to flush it or retrieve it. A beginning retriever should quarter in front of the hunter. An experienced retriever after learning to hunt may not do this depending on the wind. The hunters skill in reading the dog (able to tell when it smells a pheasant is not tested) is important for the hunter. And of course one of the things that makes a retriever a great pheasant dog is its ability to retrieve cripples and downed birds that it can't see. Another thing that the pointer people think is amazing is that when my dog flushes a bird I'm in position to shoot it. Field trial pointers are terrible at this. At one hunt club in IL where I guided it is mostly people hunting with pointers. After they are finished I go and hunt the same field and clean up any missed birds, any cripples and downed birds that they can not find.
> A Golden Retriever makes the best pheasant dog because of its nose they have the ability to catch the scent of a single pheasant at 200 yards, under ideal conditions. When they were first developed Bloodhound was mixed in for the nose and they did a good job.


Repeating what Gooser said, this has nothing to do with the walk up in a hunt test. 
I have never been to an HRC upland test but my understanding is a dog must quarter a field and sit to flush and shot and track birds. That is how I train my retrievers to hunt pheasant. I understand that some people do not train a dog to be steady to flush and shot. I do for a variety of reasons such as safety, better marking and marking multiple falls. I prefer to walk a field cross wind but it isn't always practical and doesn't matter that much in my experience. A good retriever will learn a lot with experience and put up smart old roosters that escape the hunter without a good dog.

To this;
"Another thing that the pointer people think is amazing is that when my dog flushes a bird I'm in position to shoot it. Field trial pointers are terrible at this."
All I can say is, What?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> For starters walk at heel, then sit to flush, whether or not they do this waiting to be sent to retrieve will cost you birds, both in finding them and retrieving them. There is nothing about hunting in the hunt test. The dog finds the birds with its nose either tracking or over the air. On the hunt test you may be approaching the bird without consideration for the wind - this is not hunting or at least doing it wrong. There is nothing in the hunt test to properly test the dogs nose (what he/she uses to find the birds). The retriever will go through any cover to get to the bird - either to flush it or retrieve it. A beginning retriever should quarter in front of the hunter. An experienced retriever after learning to hunt may not do this depending on the wind. The hunters skill in reading the dog (able to tell when it smells a pheasant is not tested) is important for the hunter. And of course one of the things that makes a retriever a great pheasant dog is its ability to retrieve cripples and downed birds that it can't see. Another thing that the pointer people think is amazing is that when my dog flushes a bird I'm in position to shoot it. Field trial pointers are terrible at this. At one hunt club in IL where I guided it is mostly people hunting with pointers. After they are finished I go and hunt the same field and clean up any missed birds, any cripples and downed birds that they can not find.
> A Golden Retriever makes the best pheasant dog because of its nose they have the ability to catch the scent of a single pheasant at 200 yards, under ideal conditions. When they were first developed Bloodhound was mixed in for the nose and they did a good job.


I actually blew a perfectly good Rum n' Coke out my nose as I read this. Have a blessed day.- Paul


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## [email protected] (Apr 22, 2018)

I don't have time to waste here. If you don't think that a retriever especially a Golden Retriever is the best pheasant dog your are wrong and if you can't go out in the field and prove it you are doing things wrong.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I shouldnt do this... I really shouldnt..

What the hell..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This is the nose the that created the labradors... Bloodhounds be darned..

View attachment 80072


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Perfect Gooser. just perfect. I do remember that commercial!!!!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> I don't have time to waste here. If you don't think that a retriever especially* a Golden Retriever is the best pheasant dog *your are wrong and if you can't go out in the field and prove it you are doing things wrong.


Yes but he is my Golden, those that don't know him can't be blamed for ignorance that is beyond their control.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

And everybody knows that a golden retriever is simply a Chesapeake Bay Retriever with a better hair stylist. Field grooming team. And bathing Entourage. 😁


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks for that Gooser - My dog's better than yours! 

hahahaha!! (I am NOT old enough to remember that one - thank God!)


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

I was able to sing the Ken L Ration song. Dang! I'm old.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Thanks for that Gooser - My dog's better than yours!
> 
> hahahaha!! (I am NOT old enough to remember that one - thank God!)


If anyone wants to know a polite, concise, honest way to humiliate Gooser… Tobias nailed it..


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Dave Farrar said:


> I was able to sing the Ken L Ration song. Dang! I'm old.


That wasn't that long ago......was it? -Paul


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> I shouldnt do this... I really shouldnt..
> 
> What the hell..


Yes Gooser !! Please note the breed in the ad and realize it must be true because there is Truth in advertising.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I try and stay on topic!  I searched long and HARD for that comercial that showed the butterballs!


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

So the OP stated senior and hunt tests so i presume we are talking about AKC. When as judges we need to meet the criteria and guidelines as written- it is called a HUNTING RETRIEVER test. So yes we need a walk-up in senior, but that doesn't mean it is a good testing requirement when incorporated with a flyer. It can have it's usefulness, but in senior when you only have 4 birds as a minimum to judge marking on- it may not be the right place. Master on the other hand- show me what you can come up with! You get 8 0r 9 marks as a minimum- a walkup bird- IMO a dead bird thrown across the test gives you more to judge- As I just witnessed at the 2019 Master Nationals. In our flight first series land/water w /honor, bird #1 dead in middle right to left, bird two left bird flyer, bird #3 high splash bird @ 30 yards- 16 dogs broke along with a double break. The tests that had the walkup bird thrown across the test offline of other marks proved to the judges their marking ability and perseverance... 

Shooting that flyer safely out of the test and within the length required may be good for training and realistic to hunting, but you can not talk to your dog to pull them off of it as in the real thing...


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