# Walking Baseball Poll



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

How sure are you that you really understand *Walking Baseball*, and to what extent is your knowledge of it?


I don't know how to run the drill
I know how to run it, but only at a Basic level
I know how to run it, at a Basic level, and how to advance it, except not to an Advanced level
I know it all!
Evan


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I admitted to only knowing it at a basic level. I learned it from D L's book, and if anyone had seen me trying to figure it out, they would have gotten a good laugh. I actually took the book with me and my dog onto a soccer field complex. I spent a lot of time looking at the diagrams, and decided that I just had to go try and do it before I had it figured out on paper. That was a good decision...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

for the life of me I could not figure out how to do this drill on my own with what I had read. It took a phone call to Chris Atkinson, a pencil and blank piece of paper. Chris had me start at the corner of the paper with a mark/dot and talked me through it. After drawing the third toss, having now sent the imaginary dog the first time for the first toss a light switch went on and I "Got It!" After that it became my dogs favorite drill. Great for 10:00pm after work in a parking lot in February. I think it is great for keeping my dogs having fun while working with me. I know it at the most rudimentary level and would love to go advanced. In my own feeble attempts with my most advanced dog I keep a third bumper in a pocket and lay down three before sending on occasion/randomly.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Buzz said:


> I admitted to only knowing it at a basic level. I learned it from D L's book, and if anyone had seen me trying to figure it out, they would have gotten a good laugh. I actually took the book with me and my dog onto a soccer field complex. I spent a lot of time looking at the diagrams, and decided that I just had to go try and do it before I had it figured out on paper. That was a good decision...


Ditto. I'm glad Flash wasn't there to watch me he would of died laughing at me. But once I figured out the basics for it I was able to extend it and manipulate it to what worked for me. Like any drill I've learned, get the basics down and then don't be afraid to tweak it.

FOM


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## Pepper Dawg (Sep 26, 2007)

I too learned the drill from reading DL's book and have been using the drill for the last five years or so. I use it with my four dogs at least once a week and think I am in category 3. Having voted that way, I am now wondering if I may be giving myself too much credit. BTW, I also use most of the drills in your Smartwork series.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PS- Also, maybe because I was taught this by Chris when he was still Amish. This is for me, a TT 500 user a no-Ecollar drill. Not even on the dog. If dog takes a cast wrong it is a "Toot, no" Then a "Toot, Sit,.... Over" or "Back" depending on the one I wanted. Evan, am I correct on this being a no-juice drill? My dogs love this game.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Other than refusals for "Go, Stop, or Come" commands, "Yes", this is a no juice drill for sure! 

Evan


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I did walking BB with my first few dogs. I don't do it now. I think it takes to much time for the gains you make.

I do do a 5 legged lining and casting drill in many locations for the life of the dog. This keeps the casting sharp, well sharper than not doing it. 

If I had a dog that absolutely hated drill work, who couldn't do my 5 legged drill, I'd go to walking BB, the dogs I've done it with liked it.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Evan,
Could you give us your version of how to do this drill?
Thanks,
Steve Hester


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Steve Hester said:


> Evan,
> Could you give us your version of how to do this drill?
> Thanks,
> Steve Hester


There was an article on it that Evan had published in "Retriever Journal." It was clearer than what DL had in his book. Unfortunately, he published the article after I'd already figured it out for myself. Sorry, can't recall the issue, but it was around 2 or more years ago. Maybe Evan can help us recall?

Anymore I only use it when I have little time and want to get the dog out for exercise. You can put a lot of milage on a dog in a hurry. My hunting dog especially isn't happy unless he's well exercised...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

It's on page 46 of the April/May 2005 issue of the Retriever Journal. I liked when I wrote it, and thought it was a step up in clarity over the diagram in D.L.'s book. Then I re-read it and lost some of my sureness about its clarity. I do think it's better, but not as good as I had hoped.

Evan


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I'll run this drill with some (remote sit) walking singles thrown in. This lets me run this drill around water with more variety and more opportunities to work on control, angle entries, etc.

ml


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

2-Dogs said:


> I'll run this drill with some (remote sit) walking singles thrown in. This lets me run this drill around water with more variety and more opportunities to work on control, angle entries, etc.
> 
> ml


I wanted to just ask "Why?", but I'm really curious - what are your goals in running Walking Baseball?

Evan


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

I like to run this drill from time to time, especially to tune-up a dog for tests where blinds may be run with lots of suction. I run it with 3 bumpers, casting past another visible bumper to make it challenging. I would not run it as much on an advanced dog as I do if I had a gunner who would throw diversion marks as in a 4 Phase drill. You're getting close to finishing your DVD on Walking baseball then, eh Evan?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

blind ambition said:


> You're getting close to finishing your DVD on Walking baseball then, eh Evan?


Haven't even started, yet! I'm really interested in how people view this drill, and to find out how many really understand it. If there is still a need, beyond D.L.'s book, and the article and video instruction I've done, I may venture to produce one.

Evan


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Produce one!!!  

FOM


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## Debbie C (Jul 22, 2006)

Does this mean we don't get a written version of the Walking Baseball???


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

I use it at least once a week, sometimes more often if I cannot get out and train on good set-ups. I was doing it in a very basic way till Evan's RJ article. Then it became very clear and I was able to build on the basics. 
I will say it is the best tool I have used for sharpening our casts and the older dog loves it. The little dog has a strange habit of barking as he is cast for the bumper but he looks forward to it also.
It will be a bit harder to do now that they have fenced in the soccer fields.


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## cstallings (Jul 24, 2007)

Where can I find out how to set this drill up? I doubt I can find an old copy of the retriever journal.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Evan said:


> How sure are you that you really understand *Walking Baseball*, and to what extent is your knowledge of it?
> I don't know how to run the drill
> I know how to run it, but only at a Basic level
> I know how to run it, at a Basic level, and how to advance it, except not to an Advanced level
> ...


IS THIS A TRICK QUESTION?? ;-)

Who's gonna pick "I know it all", now really? :lol:

That said, I think I understand how to get all I can out of it. If there is more, I'm all ears!

I do walking baseball a lot. For the younger dogs just learning to handle, it helps them get the idea of going in a "direction" rather than going to a "destination". It's a way of practicing in a light, no-pressure environment and thus can be a great picker-upper for attitude funks.

For the older dogs, the teaching value diminishes but it is a great way to emphasize teamwork and exercise control over the dog in a game-like, (again) no-pressure way. It is my favorite way to loosen up a dog the morning before a test/trial. I almost always try to find a schoolyard or park on the way from the motel to the grounds and play a little walking BB. Burns pent-up energy and leaves them in a good frame of mind.

I sometimes incorporate several enhancements; I'll often plant some extra bumpers around the perimeter of the field and work myself into a position where I can get a 60 or 80 yard "over" or "angle-back" to one of those "foreign" bumpers. After a while, they learn what you're up to and get excited over those.

I think it also helps introduce the concept of selection and poison birds.

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

cstallings said:


> Where can I find out how to set this drill up? I doubt I can find an old copy of the retriever journal.


On page 46 of the April/May 2005 issue of the *Retriever Journal*, I wrote an article titled_ "Walking Baseball Fundamentals"._ I'm trying to set aside time today to post it up on my website at www.rushcreekpress.com

This is amazing! 13 people have posted "I know it all!" Betcha'don't!









Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

You forgot 2 other options.

1. I know how to run it at an advanced level.
2. I have other drills that work better in my program.

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> You forgot 2 other options.
> 
> 1. I know how to run it at an advanced level.
> 2. I have other drills that work better in my program.
> ...


Questions about these options:


How advanced?
Work better to achieve what goals, and can they also be run alone?
Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

In my Amish days, I tried to follow DL's book to the letter.

In my non-Amish days of recent, I have tried to follow more modern programs, (which do not specifically call for walking baseball as part of the curriculum) to the letter.

I am still doing variations of walking baseball. 

To me, the purpose is to help the dog transfer the casting mechanics learned in three-handed casting, double T drills and swim-by over to "the field". The drill helps the dog connect the casts as being much more directly related to going in a direction, with respect to his position relative to his handler, as opposed to going to a known location through repetition.

The drill allows the handler to incorporate any host of factors or "diversions" such as: Cover, sidehills, water entries, water exits, cover changes, etc. etc.

I do not think that DL ever intended his drill to be followed step by step in all fields. I think DL intended to show a trainer a way to start the drill in a flat, featureless field. Then he left it to the trainer to add this to his bag of tricks for use later in other locations.

Who knows....maybe my interpretation of "walking baseball" is very different from what DL intended! Maybe my interpretation will be different from the product that it appears Evan will be introducing. 

To first learn Walking Baseball, I suggest that one fold an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper in half widthwise then lengthwise, and break the field down into quarters to diagram your drill....start in the one quadrant, work that piece, gradually backing your way out, over and across. After you diagram it once, you should put the paper away and go do it in the field. It is a lot like hanging wallpaper or painting. After you do it a few times, you learn how to plan your steps to keep from getting painted into a corner, or winding up needing a crazy piece of wallpaper to cover a small piece of wall.

Dog training is more art than science. I think that Walking Baseball is a perfect example of where the artist puts together something unique. Each time you build the piece, it will look a little different than the last and you adjust as-needed.

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Questions about these options:
> 
> How advanced?
> Work better to achieve what goals, and can they also be run alone?
> Evan


Hmm. How advanced? I guess that would be an opinion wouldn't it? There are no absolutes in dog training. What what dog needs others won't. Also what works for some dogs, won't work for others. You could say that to follow the steps perfectly as outlined in your material every time with every dog would be advanced. Yet that may or may not really help the dog in work at the time. Like anything in dog training, drills are only successful if your able to read the dog, understand if the reaction your getting is helping or confusing the dog and making adjustments from there. So to answer your question, can I do the baseball 2 step with a little foxtrot mixed in? Sure thing. Is it really helping the dog in front of me, hard to say....

/Paul


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Evan said:


> I wanted to just ask "Why?", but I'm really curious - what are your goals in running Walking Baseball?
> 
> Evan


I'll send you a p.m if you really, REALLY want to know...

Mark


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## Jesse Higgins (Jan 3, 2003)

Great post Chris! I am comfortable with my understanding of this drill, but somebody has certainly figured out some new application - therefore I don't know it all. In my mind, that is much of the beauty of the drill - it has so much versatility. With that said, IMO it is basically a confidence building drill for nearly any aspect of casting on land. At least that's how I use it.

What do you think Evan?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree, in principle, with Chris's assessment of the drill. I think there is a misunderstanding of my intentions, though. First, there has not been any determination of whether or not a new DVD devoted entirely to WBB is needed.

Second, when I speak of a specific way to run the drill I'm not asserting that there is only one course a trainer must walk each time, or one place relative to the dog in which the secondary bumper must be placed each time, or any of that. What D.L. created that makes this flexible drill so useful was a standard procedure - a set of mechanics that make it work. Using that procedure a trainer can alter the presentation as best suits the needs of each dog.

What brought all of this up were some questions that came my way, and the way they were asked. People adding a third bumper, or using birds (very limiting in most circumstances), involving water and water concepts (!), and a host of items that simply have no place in this casting-only drill.

That made me think that the three decent sources out there to learn about it may not be clear enough for people to understand. The numbers of this poll are bearing that out. Here are the numbers as of today.

*WBB Poll Results*


(5 forums polled)
*1. **I don't know how to run the drill *
*2. **I know how to run it, but only at a Basic level *
*3. **I know how to run it, at a Basic level, and how to advance it, except not to an Advanced level *
*4. **I know it all! *
Responses:
1. 81
2. 50
3. 37
*4. 23*

*Frankly, I think the more interesting numbers are for response #4.*

*Evan*


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

Without the very clear explanation of the drill I got in another thread a couple of years ago, I wouldn't have a clue how to run it (wish I could remember when and what thead it was). But...the description was so good and the explanation so clear that I really believe that I (or should I say "we") have it right. It's a terrific drill IMHO, and I'm confident that it's one of the drills that has helped me to take my Sadie to a much higher level than I ever could have without it.

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not pretending to be an expert here, and it's the help, the knowledge and the experience of people like Evan (and others in RTF, too) who have taught me how to train. The result is that my Sadie is an amazing dog...a pleasure to hunt with, a joy to be with and who continues to amaze me with what she can learn and do. The "Walking Baseball" drill is only a part of it, but it's proven to be a big part.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Could someone for the love of Pete just give a basic explanation of what walking baseball is? Is it like regular baseball in any way? Just a brief explanation would be great.

tt


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Frankly this drill has become a "time out" for me and my dog. I too, could not fathom it just from reading it. But I have had my partner/mentor help me with it so many times now that I really cant screw it up. It is such fun for the dog and for me, just because there is no electricity involved. When we get into a jam with harder stuff, we can go do this and still enforce the basic rules, and have fun. I am not convinced it is a drill that leads to higher learning, but I sure like it for what it is!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I'll tell you what about the number of responses for #4. First of all, the #3 response would leave anyone that does a pretty good job with the drill a little deflated. There is no continuity between the first three and the last choice. In my opinion, the last one came across as "flippy". To some extent, it tends to bring out the mischievous nature in people. I suggest the volume of responses in 4 do not suggest a bunch of "know it alls", but more of a whimsical "I can't take this quite as seriously as maybe it was intended" attitude. 

Soooo.......generating polls requires thought in how the readers are going to react to the questions. Results can easily be skewed by creating unintended perceptions. "I know it all" was not so much an expression of skill level, but more of a reaction to the lack of a serious choice. 

Now I got out my April/May 2005 Retriever Journal and re-read the drill. Maybe I should use larger orange more often (and I did this afternoon). The leaves on the short grass made it absolutely easier with the 3" bumpers. However, after taking several dogs through walking baseball, it is not a mystery. 

There is at least one vote in the #4 category that was a "knee jerk" reaction to "I know it all." It is so much easier to vote that way when you are anonymous. Or am I all alone with this opinion? 

So.......tell me what I need to know.......to know it all. 

Mischievous regards, Jim


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> So.......tell me what I need to know.......to know it all.
> 
> Mischievous regards, Jim


Jim,

I confess "I know it all" was a bit flippy!









But not completely. This could have been about anything from T drills to Tune-ups's, and there would simply be some respondants who would express that they "arrived long ago, and have no more need to learn". That has always been so, and it's a study in human nature.

The opinions I'm looking for descend from open minds. Even if you have used this, or any other drill, for years, you may find there is yet more to it than one might have previously supposed.

As you've noted, you have experience with the drill and it's scope of practice. Having that experience you now see that it isn't voodoo. It's just a little tricky to conceptualize for the beginner. Once you understand its fundamentals, you can begin to take advantage of its almost limitless flexibility. What a nice attribute for a useful drill to have that a trainer can do alone!









To know it all about WBB is merely to understand its fundamental processes, and be willing to expand its use with an open mind. Often, the emails I get only appear to have the second component. It's a start, though!

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

MRGD said:


> Could someone for the love of Pete just give a basic explanation of what walking baseball is? Is it like regular baseball in any way? Just a brief explanation would be great.
> 
> tt


Did you read Chris's post? I thought he did about as much as one can with a forum post to describe this Casting-only drill. It's initially for dogs just out of T work, but can be a lifetime maintenance drill, if a person will expand their imagination in using it.

Evan


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## Debbie C (Jul 22, 2006)

Could SOMEBODY please post a description of this drill????? or even send a p.m.....anything. I can't pretend to understand the drill if someone doesn't give a description. I am hoping I don't have to run out and buy one single copy of the RJ just to learn how its done. 

Anyone....anyone.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Debbie,

There isn't room in a forum post for complete instructions for performing this drill. Its abstract nature makes the description wordy out of necessity. However, here is a description of what it is by its nature and pracitce.

Walking Baseball is a Casting-only drill. That means that the dog isn't sent on a line at any time during the drill. Each time the dog is left in a front sit in preparation for a pre-planned cast. But now the description becomes more abstract.

It requires a field that is open and flat enough to allow the trainer to see both the dog and bumpers at all times. To do otherwise risks putting the dog in a position to be out of sight, or to attempt to cast him to bumpers you cannot be sure are where you're casting him. Moderate terrain features that don't impede this visibility, like ditches or strips of cover can actually help to elevate the dog's standards, once he has a good basic skill level.

Along with the appropriate field (and this type of field is easy to find nearly anywhere), you'll need two large (3") orange bumpers. Not white, or black, or any combination. It matters.

You'll walk a course that you determine and engineer in each session to place the dog so you can perform any cast, or combination of casts, that you desire. Back's, Over's, Come-in's, any angle, and so on, can be focused or combined as the dog has need.

What needs to be followed to make the drill perform as it should is a pattern of dynamics. While the route and cast selection are fluid, the fundamental mechanics are constant.

Does that help at all?

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Somebody should go shoot a quick video and post it. This is something that is so easy to see but so hard to type
This is the perfect time for an RTF video answer.
Ken Bora


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## Debbie C (Jul 22, 2006)

Thanks Evan. Here is a question...are you tossing the bumpers from your side, or are you getting the dog to sit while you place them further out into the field and then coming back to send dog?

Why do we use orange bumpers?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Debbie H said:


> Thanks Evan. Here is a question...are you tossing the bumpers from your side, or are you getting the dog to sit while you place them further out into the field and then coming back to send dog?
> 
> Why do we use orange bumpers?


Now we're getting into the long-winded part! But I'll try to be brief.

When you place each bumper you're only tossing it a few feet. Let me work up a diagram or two and post them up. That will help to make this clearer.

We use orange for reasons that will become clearer when you see how the drill is run. We can see 3" orange bumpers from quite a distance, but because dogs don't tend to see orange as well as stark colors and shades, like white or black, they must rely on taking the correct cast to get them there, instead of just running to a visible destination.

In addition, the bumper designated as the "secondary bumper" is made a little easier to get past by not being a start color or shade. The dog's memory of its placement is usually all the suction needed to strengthen the cast given and his commitment to carrying it. You'll see!

Evan


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

If you've ever done advanced three-handed casting with two bumpers, the mechanics of walking baseball are similar..........with three exceptions 1) the bumpers are big/orange, 2) home plate and the pitcher's mound are dynamically fluid (continually changing) and 3) the casts are generally much longer while transitioning to literal.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Debbie,
> 
> There isn't room in a forum post for complete instructions for performing this drill. Its abstract nature makes the description wordy out of necessity. However, here is a description of what it is by its nature and pracitce.
> 
> ...


I think what your trying to describe is a school soccer field or a golf course. At least thats where I do mine......and it adds an eliment of danger to the drill, just for fun....

/Paul


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## Jesse Higgins (Jan 3, 2003)

Evan said,


> there has not been any determination of whether or not a new DVD devoted entirely to WBB is needed.


The interest level is there. I guess the question is, "How many would be willing to spend $25 on a WBB DVD?" My instincts tell me not too many would really do it. But, it would be a great addition to an existing or future "Transition" type DVD.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jesse Higgins said:


> Evan said,
> 
> The interest level is there. I guess the question is, "How many would be willing to spend $25 on a WBB DVD?" My instincts tell me not too many would really do it. But, it would be a great addition to an existing or future "Transition" type DVD.


Jesse,

My wife thinks the idea of one has merit due to the poll numbers. But if we do one it would only be a 10-12 dollar DVD. I want good information out there, but I want it to remain affordable. Who knows, we may do one yet. We'll see.

WBB is already a chapter on Transiton: Phase 1. The jury is still out on whether or not it really met the need.

Evan


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> My wife thinks the idea of one has merit due to the poll numbers.


Evan, look how the poll is worded. There's not one answer there that a person who did walking base ball and had done it for several years would put a check mark by.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I swear there must have been two threads about this topic because I thought I put in a reply and sure cant find it here. The very simple answer, is yes WBB is very useful because it a low stress way to work on casting concepts. The only, and I mean only, way to learn it is to work with someone who has done it. I do not believe a video could capture the spontaneous opportunities that show up when it is being worked. Just find someone somewhere who has worked it, and follow them through as they run their dog. It begins to make sense, and was a huge help to me and wild man. He actually had to use some of that prodigious gray matter between the floppy ears and the hard skull. (not to mention the galleries light entertainment watching me fall over my feet trying to figure out where we were supposed to be next)


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I kind of felt the same as Howard and did not vote. I just typed a few paragraphs of text!

I have never spent a moment doing walking baseball with any other human being...only with a few dogs. 

I got DL's book, the first time, and a clean sheet of paper and diagrammed the drill out.... It is much easier when you start with a clean sheet and put all the "x's and o's" on it yourself from the start. You can also put a little slash mark through each bumper after it has been picked up. 

It is about as freestyle a drill as you can get. Evan wrote about all the various angles and I agree completely. When it comes to "Literal casting", I believe this drill can really help get a dog to understand how sharp or shallow an angle to take, based upon the cast with respect to where the bumper is.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Evan, look how the poll is worded. There's not one answer there that a person who did walking base ball and had done it for several years would put a check mark by.


Nice thing about polls; you can post any alternate remarks about the topic you like without commiting to a vote. When I said she thought the idea had merit due to the poll numbers, she weighted that sentiment with the additional rhetoric in the thread. One thing no has posted is that they see no need for this discussion, or that they don't want to know any more about it.

Even if they had, the number of those responses would have to be weighed against all others. I'm open to any feedback. I understand enough about science not to undertake any fact-finding process with a predisposition toward a conclusion.

There does seem to be a forgone conclusion that by asking about this that I have only commercial ulterior motives for it. I've already written an article about it, and have given it a chapter in a recent DVD project. I care enough about what I offer that I want to know if it's been up to par. Recent questions I've received about it have indicated that such may not be the case. I hope not, but how will I know if I don't ask?


Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

If I have trouble sleeping tonight, I'm going to diagram Walking Baseball in a powerpoint presentation. I have some ideas about how to do it, that as far as I know, have not yet been done.

Evan, regarding new training materials, think back to what was commercially available to the average Joe a couple decades ago! Americans, in particular, like choices. If you have a new product that helps some folks and their dogs...then it's all good.

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> If I have trouble sleeping tonight, I'm going to diagram Walking Baseball in a powerpoint presentation. I have some ideas about how to do it, that as far as I know, have not yet been done.
> 
> Evan, regarding new training materials, think back to what was commercially available to the average Joe a couple decades ago! Americans, in particular, like choices. If you have a new product that helps some folks and their dogs...then it's all good.
> 
> Chris


Chris, its called death by powerpoint in the industry...)


/Paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Chris, its called death by powerpoint in the industry...)
> 
> 
> /Paul


You lost me brother /Paul! I have an idea, though, on how to build a snappy walking baseball diagram in powerpoint, that would be the easiest to follow yet...really! (or so it seems in my mind's eye)

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> You lost me brother /Paul! I have an idea, though, on how to build a snappy walking baseball diagram in powerpoint, that would be the easiest to follow yet...really! (or so it seems in my mind's eye)
> 
> Chris


Its a joke. Every management meeting in the software industry is accompanied by a 40 slide powerpoint where some nervous as heck young manager reads in monotone off a powerpoint slide. go through enough of those meetings and you'll be diving off your desk headfirst into the floor....

/Paul


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## Carlo Iacobucci (Oct 15, 2007)

I have been reading about it on 2 forums and am still none the wiser.Chris your post is probably the clearest,however Evan mentions 2 bumbers are used, how in relation to each other? Is one meant to be a distraction from the one cast to ?.perhaps a sketch of the sheet of paper showing handler,dog,bumber/bumbers relationships might help.
cheers , Carlo.


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

For those of you that are still lost. I cannot help. All I can offer is that "WALKING BASEBALL" is a full chapter in D.L. Walters book entitled "Training Retrievers to Handle." The book was originally published in 1979 and (to my knowledge) is currently out of print. To explain it on a single post would be impossibly lengthy.
The book can occassionally be found on eBay. One or two of the dog training supply outlets still have it. I bought the book several years ago and found that chapter to be very educational. 

Evan - I have hit the link to your site several times and have not found your article. I would love to see it!

Randy


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Its a joke. Every management meeting in the software industry is accompanied by a 40 slide powerpoint where some nervous as heck young manager reads in monotone off a powerpoint slide. go through enough of those meetings and you'll be diving off your desk headfirst into the floor....
> 
> /Paul


I may have experienced one or two of those!

Powerpoint - lots of big pictures, not much text...assume that all attendees already know how to read. If you see lots of bullet points...feign intestinal distress and head to the bathroom with your BlackBerry and get caught up on what you're missing while listening to monotone man.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm still in the process of re-writing it. It won't scan from the RJ pages, so I'm just writing it up again. I can only afford to devote 30 min/day to it, and the diagrams take a lot of time to re generate.

Evan


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

Evan thanks. Thanks in advance for your time.
Hand


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Carlo Iacobucci said:


> I have been reading about it on 2 forums and am still none the wiser.Chris your post is probably the clearest,however Evan mentions 2 bumbers are used, how in relation to each other? Is one meant to be a distraction from the one cast to ?.perhaps a sketch of the sheet of paper showing handler,dog,bumber/bumbers relationships might help.
> cheers , Carlo.


Im no expert, but to start a basic drill :
1. walk the dog to a corner of a field(soccer) with 2 bumpers in hand.
2. sit the dog facing you several yards away.
3. toss 1 bumper in the direction you wish to begin casting.
4. toss 2nd bumper in an opposite/different direction.
5.cast the dog to the FIRST bumper thrown.
6. as dog goes out for bumper, position yourself(move) to a spot away from the starting dog position and where you can recieve the bumper,toss another one, and cast the dog to the original 2nd bumper you threw without repeating the first cast direction.( adifferent cast )
7. ideally,, you move yourself around the field, returning to the spot you began.

Evan, am I close?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> Im no expert, but to start a basic drill :
> 1. walk the dog to a corner of a field(soccer) with 2 bumpers in hand.
> 2. sit the dog facing you several yards away.
> 3. toss 1 bumper in the direction you wish to begin casting.
> ...


Close - yes. But you've illuminated the importance of precedure in describing how to run the drill. I'll get this together soon. 

For now you...


Walk the dog into the field and sit him.
Toss a bumper a couple yards from him as he sits.
You then walk with the dog the distance you want the first cast to be carried and sit him.
Toss another bumper a *short* distance as before, and...
Walk the distance from your dog that you want the second cast to be carried.
Cast the dog and receive him in a front sit.
Toss a bumper as before and continue.
But all of this will make much more sense when the article is done, and the diagrams can be followed in sequence.

Evan


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## Carlo Iacobucci (Oct 15, 2007)

Great,thanks Golddog and Evan we finaly have a description of dog, bumbers and how they are thrown. looking forward to reading your article when finished.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

so I had the dogs out this afternoon, always have the small camera and tripod that clips on the window. I thought I would shoot a short video clip of walking base ball. Three takes and an hour later I have this very humble result. Evan, this should show the need for a really good one. This was a totally bright sunny day yet the video is very dark. My first attempt I wandered too far and was out of frame most of the time. This is an attempt to show folk what we are talking about and turned out terrible. Dark and compacted into a tiny space. Cannot even tell I am at the edge of cut hay and cut corn. The light breeze fills the mike and you can hardly see the dog. I had to keep in mind my position to set up the dog and still be in frame. Sorry, I wish I could have done better for you all.
This is YouTube link- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXmhXhLw8v4
and for those of you at work denied YouTube here is the Photobucket link- http://s135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/KenBora/?action=view&current=HPIM3442.flv


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Gold dog and Evan thank you both. Also thanks to Chris and others who have tried to explain it.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Yours wasn't there yet Ken, thank you too.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

and to the 21 people in the poll who know it all. How do I shoot video on a bright sunny day and make it come out bright? Why does YouTube seem to "Eat Light"? The video looks bright and clear when viewed from the back of the camera after taking it. But after it is uploaded it looses a lot of light, why?????


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

The video looked okay on my monitor, Ken. But MPEG quality is not going to do a good digital source justice in many regards. Usually, copying digital media yields little generational loss, unless it's in the format used on the web. The definition suffers, along with things like brightness.

Your procedure for WBB on the video is similar to the description above that I offered corrections for; standing in one place and tossing both bumpers, etc. But we'll get this fixed soon!

I appreciate your effort!

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> Your procedure for WBB on the video is similar to the description above that I offered corrections for; standing in one place and tossing both bumpers, etc. But we'll get this fixed soon!
> 
> I appreciate your effort!
> 
> Evan


Thank You,
I did the first take and found 3/4 of the time I was out of camera frame. The one I used I was staying more or less in one spot to stay in front of camera.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Oh, Ken...I also meant to mention that when you sat your dog initially in his front sit and tossed your first bumper, you threw it way too far. I wanted to point that out because that's one of the most frequent errors made in the running of WBB. It should be nearer the dog for suction, and for memory support.

Mechanically, you would have tossed that bumper and then taken your dog with you - walking the distance you want him to carry that *first* cast. Then you would sit him at a point from which you'll give him that first cast. Before casting him, you would toss another close bumper (which will be your second cast), and then leave him there while you back away as far as you want him to carry his *second* cast, and in a direction that will set up whatever angle you want that cast to be.

Are we getting clearer?

Evan


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## Todd Upright (Oct 4, 2007)

I have looked the post over three times now, I have always thought that basic WBB was a simple thing to do. But after reading the post it seems to be more of a science project and I never liked science. The way I have always thought you used the drill was straight foward. I have always had two bumpers (orange) and went to an open field, tossed one out, heel the dog to the location I want, sit him (front sit) and then toss the other bumper in the direction I want the second cast to be.As he returns each time with the bumper toss it where you want the second cast to be each time. Keep this going for as long as you want to run the drill. This has been the way I have used this drill, but maybe I have been doing it wrong. I have always thought about this drill kind of like it is a form of a walking T drill, where you could alternate between the different piles as you the handler move around. But if I'm wrong someone let me know.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Todd Upright said:


> I have looked the post over three times now, I have always thought that basic WBB was a simple thing to do. But after reading the post it seems to be more of a science project and I never liked science. The way I have always thought you used the drill was straight foward. I have always had two bumpers (orange) and went to an open field, tossed one out, heel the dog to the location I want, sit him (front sit) and then toss the other bumper in the direction I want the second cast to be.As he returns each time with the bumper toss it where you want the second cast to be each time. Keep this going for as long as you want to run the drill. This has been the way I have used this drill, but maybe I have been doing it wrong. I have always thought about this drill kind of like it is a form of a walking T drill, where you could alternate between the different piles as you the handler move around. But if I'm wrong someone let me know.


I believe you're doing it right. (I am after all, a self-proclaimed "know it all" ;-) )

You're describing the basic level; you can then do other things to exaggerate the suction, and further erase the memory, like dropping then running a "blind" bumper during the drill, throwing walking singles to create over/unders, adding water, and I'll sometimes plant an upwind poison bird to cast away from (then pickup later as a reward). Mine's a case of necessity being the Mother of Invention, and using this drill when training alone. Beyond the early teaching period, I modify it to address a dog's needs. 

I've found that its also critical to remember where all your bumpers are.

ml


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Thank you Ken for attempting to put some video together around this and putting yourself out there for criticism. 


/Paul

ps. I did learn quite a bit from your video. None of it dog related.  1. you live in a beautiful area. 2. Don't try to make video's, I would stink at it...


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## Todd Upright (Oct 4, 2007)

2 Dogs,

I had a post a few days ago ( problems with T and TT ) where I have a young dog that is doing fairly well on D T, but his biggest issue is not focusing on the handler and this is where he makes his wrong cast. Since posting here today I have started thinking more about that problem and since he is crazy over birds, I was thinking about doing a very basic form of WBB drill using Ducks or Pheasants instead of bumpers. I think that might get him fired up enough to lock his eyes on me for the cast and stop looking around at everything else in the world. Then I can go back to the D T after a several days. This is just a thought I had, don't know if it is good one or bad. What do you or others seem to think. BTW he has never done any WBB drills before.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Todd Upright said:


> 2 Dogs,
> 
> I had a post a few days ago ( problems with T and TT ) where I have a young dog that is doing fairly well on D T, but his biggest issue is not focusing on the handler and this is where he makes his wrong cast. Since posting here today I have started thinking more about that problem and since he is crazy over birds, I was thinking about doing a very basic form of WBB drill using Ducks or Pheasants instead of bumpers. I think that might get him fired up enough to lock his eyes on me for the cast and stop looking around at everything else in the world. Then I can go back to the D T after a several days. This is just a thought I had, don't know if it is good one or bad. What do you or others seem to think. BTW he has never done any WBB drills before.


I would tend to think that using birds, either for TT or for WBB, would be more likely to worsen your problem. You've stated how birdy he is. If he knows there are birds out there, why would he look at you? Know what I mean?

Evan


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## Pepper Dawg (Sep 26, 2007)

Todd Upright said:


> 2 Dogs,
> 
> I had a post a few days ago ( problems with T and TT ) where I have a young dog that is doing fairly well on D T, but his biggest issue is not focusing on the handler and this is where he makes his wrong cast. Since posting here today I have started thinking more about that problem and since he is crazy over birds, I was thinking about doing a very basic form of WBB drill using Ducks or Pheasants instead of bumpers. I think that might get him fired up enough to lock his eyes on me for the cast and stop looking around at everything else in the world. Then I can go back to the D T after a several days. This is just a thought I had, don't know if it is good one or bad. What do you or others seem to think. BTW he has never done any WBB drills before.


When you run the TT does he look out at the pile when you send him from your side? In other words is he "bugging"?


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## Todd Upright (Oct 4, 2007)

Evan , 

I guess I see what you mean about that. That is why I threw it out here before I tried it.

Pepper Dawg,

As far a when I send him from my side he is looking at the pile area, it is when he is stopped at the crossover he starts to bug. He views that as a pressure issue, I just thought that using birds in the WBB might get him going. But I see what Evan means also, because he is wild about birds and he loves to run marks. I guess every dog has there baggage just like people. I would just like to find a way to unpack his.


Thanks Todd


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## Pepper Dawg (Sep 26, 2007)

Todd Upright said:


> Evan ,
> 
> I guess I see what you mean about that. That is why I threw it out here before I tried it.
> 
> ...


Todd,
I would take him to a different area of the field or to a new field and run FTP both from my side and from the front finish position. He may be bugging at the midpoint of your TT field because he got nicked there and it is now a hot spot. I would not run WBB at this point at all. JMHO.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I learned the drill from D.L.'s book, but I've always had a problem with it. I see from Evan's comments that I have been violating the rule about short throws and I haven't quite gotten that figured out from what I'm reading here. The problem that I've run into is that rarely do I have the opportunity to work the dog in a field that is bare enough/flat enough to enable me to see the bumpers at a distance. If I can't be sure of the location of the bumper then I obviously can't give him good casts and he will only get confused, so I rarely run the drill.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Todd Upright said:


> Evan ,
> 
> I guess I see what you mean about that. That is why I threw it out here before I tried it.
> 
> ...


No surprise, I agree with Evan that bringing birds out to the field with you will do anything but help keep the dog's eyes on you (unless I suppose, you had them hanging around your neck...).

I'm not sure his inattention is due to pressure though, as much as a lack of confidence in himself and you with his training. Keep running the drill, and keep your standards high when it comes to his OB. And as contrary as this may sound, slow your drill work down, make sure he's looking at you before casting. He's got to learn that only after focusing on you does he get to pick up the bumper. 
I train with a guy whose dog did this to the point of driving both of us crazy. Turns out this almost 2-year old dog had never been taught anything but basic OB and had seen nothing but marks all his life. Well, no wonder he was always looking around! Took almost a year, a lot of patience and slow going, but the dog now runs BB, TT and cold blinds pretty well.


ml


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Evan said:


> I wanted to just ask "Why?", but I'm really curious - what are your goals in running Walking Baseball?
> 
> Evan



Evan:

I ran it tonight (its actually been awhile, this thread did me that favor) to refresh my memory of it. The way I run it, it could be called "Moving 8-Handed Casting" as much as walking baseball. I take 4 or 5 bumpers, orange, black and white, and depending on the visibility of the field, I'll have that many on the ground sometimes. I'll run angle backs, cold blinds, short overs, come-ins, walking singles, whatever. Really, there is probably no name for what I do (and the people that know me well probably wouldn't be surprised at that!). To sketch it, you simply wad up a piece of paper, then unfold it and draw a line in each fold.

If only my handling didn't look as random as this drill...

My goals are to confirm that the dog is taking casts and not just remembering a single bumper, ignoring suction (other bumpers, sidehills, etc), maintaining lines, and enjoying the variety. We can run this at a pretty good clip, go short or long (200 yds with some tonight) and get a lot of work done in 15 minutes.

Mark


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## Todd Upright (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks guys,

I guess I just need to set back and enjoy the ride so to speak. I keep forgetting that he is 9 months old and that we have come a long way in a short time frame. I need more patience with this problem. He has traveled at a fairly rapid pace so far in training and I just want to continue at that pace. So it is somewhat me driven more so than anything.
Thanks for the replys and I will stop messing up this post with my junk.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Todd Upright said:


> Evan ,
> 
> I guess I see what you mean about that. That is why I threw it out here before I tried it.
> 
> Thanks Todd


Todd,

If you would like to email me on this topic, I have a program for dealing with it, as I'm sure many pros have. If you've trained retrievers for a living, you've had people send you dogs that have this little focus problem.

I'll be glad to help. I think you'll find it isn't anything like the terminal problem it appears to be. 









[email protected]

Evan


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Evan said:


> Todd,
> 
> If you would like to email me on this topic, I have a program for dealing with it, as I'm sure many pros have. If you've trained retrievers for a living, you've had people send you dogs that have this little focus problem.
> 
> ...


If it were me, I might consider using real birds in a different way. Take out some very fresh ducks or pheasant and keep them at the line with you. Then once in awhile I might toss one out after sending the dog, then give a come-in whistle and have the dog pick up the bird and deliver. It might just improve both focus and come-in whistle response.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Good idea, Buzz!

Here are the Poll numbers as of today, 11/6/07 (my birthday!







)

1. 101
2. 76
3. 50
4. 33

Strong pattern showing a need for more info! The article is about 75% done.

EvanG


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## Pepper Dawg (Sep 26, 2007)

Evan said:


> Good idea, Buzz!
> 
> Here are the Poll numbers as of today, 11/6/07 (my birthday!
> 
> ...


Happy Birthday Evan!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Thanks! BTW,

It's done!

The article from the Retriever Journal, *"Walking Baseball Fundamentals"* is on the Rush Creek Press website complete with all 7 diagrams. The link is below.

http://www.rushcreekpress.com/page5articles.html

Evan


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks Evan!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

time to bump up a fun winter drill as many have gone inside from the cold and do not want to toss ducks for me any longer. easy to do all alone. enjoy!
Evan, on my screen your white text on gray is hard to read. In your link.
But the learnin' is there 



.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Thanks, Ken. Looks like I'll have to put this one back up!

Evan


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Good article in the Dec. 2010 issue of Retriever News.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

ok, so I read the article and looked at the diagrams. Thanks to Evan for posting this way back when.

To summarize my understanding and to make WBB simple to begin with I understand the following:

Walk into an appropriate field with a dog, two orange bumpers and a whistle. At some location toss a bumper onto the ground in a manner that allows the dog to see you toss said bumper. Walk the dog to another location and put him in a remote sit. Walk yourself to a third location but before you do this place a bumper behind the dog where he/she sits and out of his view. Cast the dog to the bumper you initially tossed onto the ground. Receive the dog and take the bumpers from him/her. Leave the dog at this spot and walk to a fourth location but before you do this place the bumper, you just received from the dog, behind the dog where he sits and out of his view. You now have two bumpers planted in the field and can continue this drill for as long as the size of the field and your imagination allow.

Correct?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> How sure are you that you really understand *Walking Baseball*, and to what extent is your knowledge of it?
> 
> 
> I don't know how to run the drill
> ...


I was fortunate enough to have actually run that drill with my dog at your side.
I think we got it, but there are no absolutes, especially with us!!

*
RK*


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

My only problem with Walking Baseball is that I tend to strap myself in a corner of the field pretty quick.... Guess I need more room!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Byron Musick said:


> My only problem with Walking Baseball is that I tend to strap myself in a corner of the field pretty quick.... Guess I need more room!


 
No need for that. Just think ahead, like Chess. Be thinking 10 moves forward 


.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

jtfreeman said:


> Walk yourself to a third location but before you do this place a bumper behind the dog where he/she sits and out of his view.



I want the dog to see both bumpers, usually I plant one close as suction and cast him off of it to the farther bumper, then place the next bumper (next suction to cast away from) blind and cast back to the suction bumper from the previous cast... Gosh this can get confusing, the DVD Evan has does a real good job of demonstrating this!  Likely why I usually spend too much time thinking this part, thus I end up in a location that makes me start over!! Not real good at Chess!


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

The first pro that I worked for did it and many other cool drills so it is pretty natural for me. I love WBB and the dogs enjoy it. Jim Dobbs had many different ideas and some I really like. Their are so many things you can do to stimulate a young dog to think or to relax a older dog. What I do as far as walking baseball depends on the dog. I most the time use white bumpers not orange. I use a huge field and may use it all. I have yet to see a field trial pro do WBB though at least any that I have worked for. If I did their basics you bet I did though. I have been doing it with my dogs since we have snow with Dokkens.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> No need for that. Just think ahead, like Chess. Be thinking 10 moves forward
> 
> 
> .


Like Chess (not Chessy's)?? I recall understanding Checker's, Chess I managed to think maybe at best two moves ahead (on a good day)! 

I like your Avatar, only thing missing is the pup! How is pup doing?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

It's a good drill for the amateur I think... I used DL's book twenty years ago and it worked out just fine.

I don't have the time for it now.

Angie


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

I do this, I learned it from my pro in Kingston. He showed me with one bumper leading up to 4 bumpers. Our older dog has gotten very good at this the younger one needs some work. Thanks for reminding me about this, the young dog needs it.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Well I'll chime in, although I'm sure few really care what I think. My experience with WBB, based upon Evan's video, is that it is a very helpful drill for teaching casting, especially for a dog that get's bored easily, and for tune-up. I use it often. Sometimes, since I tend to be early for training, is to use it before anyone else arrives. My dog loves it. Part of the beauty is that all you need is two bumpers and a little understanding and imagination. I have painted myself into a corner. No problem, just move out and start over. My dog doesn't seem to know I've screwed up. 

Recently, I've used it to work on angled come-in casts.

In particular, I really like the way Evan balances suction between the primary and secondary bumper in different ways - little suction in the beginning...more later. I also have used it to reinforce angled casts, to carry casts further, and to take at cast when I am further away.

Perhaps, most importantly, his use of dogs at different levels of training, helped me to understand what to expect. And, I was expecting way too much way too soon...until I saw the video.

Best money I've ever spent on training materials.

Sorry to be late to the party. And, hey, what do I know...anyway?

Snick


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## T.Lanczak (Sep 21, 2009)

Check out the Dec. Issue of Retriever Field Trial News. The Ask the Pro Colum. I just wrote an article explaining walking baseball & it's attributes. The article also includes detailed diagrams that one can take to the field & follow. 

Also check out you tube. Search Bay Blue Kennels and all of our videos of drills will come up we have several on walking baseball. 

Enjoy the material & I hope this helps to clarify an old but very beneficial drill


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Byron Musick said:


> Like Chess (not Chessy's)?? I recall understanding Checker's, Chess I managed to think maybe at best two moves ahead (on a good day)!
> 
> I like your Avatar, only thing missing is the pup! How is pup doing?


that is the "pup" Loco in my Avatar. 7 months old and growin'


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> that is the "pup" Loco in my Avatar. 7 months old and growin'


I love them big brown dogs. Looks like maybe he'll be lookin' to kick your butt some day  But I'm sure you'll have an answer!

Chuck


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> No need for that. Just think ahead, like Chess. Be thinking 10 moves forward
> 
> 
> .


Or at least a couple. It helps. 

Ken, I'm glad you brought this one back up because there is still a great deal about this little drill that is often misunderstood. Somehow I've dumped my article. But I'm making an edited video clip from the DVD to post up on You Tube. I'll post up a link as soon as it's uploaded.

Evan


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Evan said:


> Or at least a couple. It helps.
> 
> Ken, I'm glad you brought this one back up because there is still a great deal about this little drill that is often misunderstood. Somehow I've dumped my article. But I'm making an edited video clip from the DVD to post up on You Tube. I'll post up a link as soon as it's uploaded.
> 
> Evan


is this what you dumped"

http://utahbirddogs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2527&p=28089


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

david gibson said:


> is this what you dumped"
> 
> http://utahbirddogs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2527&p=28089


 David,

Yes, thanks!!! I'm loading that back up to my computer. But anyone who wants an accurate look at what WBB really is can take a look at this article. I'll still load up the video later on and post up a link.

Great work, David!

Evan


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Evan said:


> David,
> 
> Yes, thanks!!! I'm loading that back up to my computer. But anyone who wants an accurate look at what WBB really is can take a look at this article. I'll still load up the video later on and post up a link.
> 
> ...


sorry to say though i read it and am now even more confused...lol. i think i am making it more complicated in my head than need be......


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Maybe Evan won't agree but I have never thought of WB as a "dance step". 
There is a lot of room for improvisation depending on your specific needs for the day. Understand the principles and apply it to your situation. And if you paint yourself into a corner, there is always a "come in" cast.

I'll bet DL used his imagination with this drill.

Too much overthinking, IMO.

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JS said:


> Maybe Evan won't agree but I have never thought of WB as a "dance step".
> There is a lot of room for improvisation depending on your specific needs for the day. Understand the principles and apply it to your situation. And if you paint yourself into a corner, there is always a "come in" cast.
> 
> *I'll bet DL used his imagination with this drill*.
> ...


Honestly, D.L. was ahead of his time in creating this drill. This was a far more thoughtful exercise than most of his contemporaries were using when he came up with this. 

Funny thing about WBB. It's a little abstract for a while as you learn it. Then, once you've gotten the fundamentals of it crystalized, it seems very easy....and it is! Every dog I've ever done it with has loved it.

Evan


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks all who have responded. I could never figure it out but after I read all of this thread, I went out and tried it and now it works for me. Found out if I was having a problem with a particular cast I could just repeat it until the dog had it and then move on. Thanks again. 
Clay


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Clayton Evans said:


> Thanks all who have responded. I could never figure it out but after I read all of this thread, I went out and tried it and now it works for me. Found out if I was having a problem with a particular cast I could just repeat it until the dog had it and then move on. Thanks again.
> Clay


This is my favorite part of this drill, that you can tailor it to work on what your dog needs.

My 2yo had a lot of trouble with angle back casts during transition so I did several sessions of WBB doing nothing but left and right angle backs. Lately he's not carrying overs very well so, even though I don't use them often, we'll be working on those during future WBB sessions.

Also agree that the dog seems to really like this drill.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> My 2yo had a lot of trouble with angle back casts during transition so I did several sessions of WBB doing nothing but left and right angle backs. Lately he's not carrying overs very well so, even though I don't use them often, we'll be working on those during future WBB sessions.


Even when you're focusing on a specific cast, keep a balance with other casts as you maintain all casting standards. That includes doing one or two "Here" casts in each session.

Evan


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## Dixiedog78 (Jul 9, 2009)

I am going with option 2.... Someone showed me how to do a basic level but I did not run it more than just a few times. I have to admit it does take a little bit getting use to.... I would love to see how to do a more advanced level. I think it is kind of like wagon wheel, you can never over do this drill...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I got the edited video done of Walking Baseball. It's a briefer look than the DVD, of course. But this should help clear up some of the details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcktsyHLTYk

Evan


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Evan said:


> I got the edited video done of Walking Baseball. It's a briefer look than the DVD, of course. But this should help clear up some of the details.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcktsyHLTYk
> 
> Evan


Excellent Evan. Thanks.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks Evan. Very good explanation. I am going out to try the drill. I have a bit of snow to contend with but I am used to that. Am awaiting your book I ordered as you suggested for blinds. Thanks again.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

much clearer - thanks


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Evan tried the drill this afternoon on a football field, snow and all. My dog responded very well. Love the baseball walk. I like the idea I can use this to practice alone. Walked through the drill at home first after watching the video twice. I did not do what you did with your older dog at the end yet! We did straight backs, overs and angled backs. I am impressed. Thanks.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Evan...To say that you're fast with a whistle is a vast understatement.
> Walt


Thanks, Walt. I quick dog, combined with an advanced presentation of WBB will make you a quick handler!

Mary Lynn,

I've never done this drill with a dog that didn't love it. It's fun for them, and fun for the trainer!

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

GOOD JOB EVAN!!!!!
You know I would be a total hypocrite if I didn’t state that I am a totalretriever guy, as you know.
But that is an excellent representation of the drill. Love the Chess reference, was that because of my comment this thread?
You have done the retriever community a wonderful service posting this. Now I had thought you had only trained with Carr.
Not Carr and Walters. Not to be confused with Wolters. Remember when we had our RTF discussion about the double T and my speculation it may go by the wayside? Did Walters, not Wolters, run dogs on the double T? Do you recall that discussion a while back?







.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> GOOD JOB EVAN!!!!!
> You know I would be a total hypocrite if I didn’t state that I am a totalretriever guy, as you know.
> But that is an excellent representation of the drill. Love the Chess reference, was that because of my comment this thread?
> You have done the retriever community a wonderful service posting this. Now I had thought you had only trained with Carr.
> ...


Thanks, Ken. 

Yes, I do rememeber that. But it's been a while. D.L. never set up a TT at anytime in the more than 3 years I spent with him. He taught handling on both 3-leg & 5-leg patterns. It did a nice job of Backs, Overs, and (45 degree) 'angle' Backs. He was the first of several pros I trained with. I spent the most time with him of any of them.

Years later my wife and I packed up the dogs and went to Escalon, CA to spend a summer with Rex at CL-2. Never saw any Walking Baseball going on there, but I still believe strongly in the real value of the drill.

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I want to thank you, Ken, for reminding me to get out and do more WBB during the winter months. I've always stuck it in here and there over the years. But the last couple weeks I've been doing more, and Moose, especially, has benefitted from it. He's been more challenged by it than any dog I can recall, so he's gaining a great deal from it.

Evan


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

My daughter is an expert in the field of instructional design. She was very complimentary of the DVD. She knows nothing of dog training. She was focused on the perspective of the person watching the DVD and how helpful it could be to the handler. According to her, it's very solid and helpful. That echoed my own experience with it. And, Evan is right about the following...my Chessie was bored 'sh*less with T and TT. But, he loves WBB, and I've been able to get nice 'angle-backs' as well as angle 'come-ins' (perhaps much overlooked...but can save your butt ) without much difficulty and a great canine attitude.

Most here would accuse me of 'over-thinking'. But, learning how to do WBB and balance the Primary and Secondary bumpers is right up my alley.

Thanks, Evan!

Chuck


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

When ice fishing (for you northerners) always take dog & 2 orange bumpers!!

Plenty of room to work.
Plenty of time to do it.
Nice surface to work on.

Elvis loves it............

*RK*


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

I have to say that I just started WBB after looking at this thread. I was looking for something that would allow me to work on casting, but not get my pup bored, which seemed to be happening more and more lately when running blind drills.

Today was my second session and he picked it up alot quicker today. I got much better angle backs today that I have been in the past few months (and yesterday). He also was quite energetic about the casts, where as yesterday he was a little hesitant.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan;719840more WBB during th said:


> I want to thank you, Ken, for reminding me to get out and do e winter months......
> Evan


 
You are very welcome Evan,
Thank you for shooting the new vid.
I was running it today in 2 inches of fluffy snow.
Dogs love to do this drill.





.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

road kill said:


> When ice fishing (for you northerners) always take dog & 2 orange bumpers!!
> 
> Plenty of room to work.
> Plenty of time to do it.
> ...


I'd be too worried about injuries to do this


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> I'd be too worried about injuries to do this


From what??
It's not glaze ice, it generally has a very rough cover of snow and pitted ice.
Not slippery at all.
It's probably safer than a parking lot.

But then you already knew that.


*RK*


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Evan Should we use the orange bumpers in the snow? Snow at least at foot to 2 feet deep in spots. Dogs love the drill and running happily.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Sorry to be so slow in getting back. My main computer is in the shop...Trojan virus. NOTE: Watch out for a program on the net called Antivirus8. The program itself is a virus!

So, yes, start with orange in the snow. But be willing to change as needed to something like black or yellow. Living where there is heavy snow requires extra work, so be creative. Going to large plowed parking lots at night under the lights can be very useful, and you won't have to deal with bumpers lost in the snow.

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

mjh345 said:


> I'd be too worried about injuries to do this





road kill said:


> From what??
> It's not glaze ice, it generally has a very rough cover of snow and pitted ice.
> Not slippery at all.
> It's probably safer than a parking lot.
> ...


I agree, and train lots on froze ponds. mjh was maybe worried about all the drinking ice fishin' folk are known for  walking baseball is not a drinking game!




.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

for the dogs I have orange can not be seen at all in snow so I do not get all the suction I want from one bumper to the other. I use canvas olive drab when snow is more than 4 inches.





.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> for the dogs I have orange can not be seen at all in snow so I do not get all the suction I want from one bumper to the other. I use canvas olive drab when snow is more than 4 inches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's another good option for the flexible trainer! They also come in grey plastic. I just depends on your dog and circumstances.

Evan


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

had a fun session yesterday, perfect field and even equipped with a swim-by sized pond to work in casts with water and shorelines to cross at various angles.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Evan and Ken Thanks for the info on the bumpers. So far they are picking up the orange good. They love doing the drill even if it is snowing and weather bad. We use a football field so lots of room b/c track area around it as well.

Thanks for the heads up on the Trojan virus Evan!Sorry about your computer.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Mary Lynn said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the Trojan virus Evan!Sorry about your computer.


Got my computer back today. I'm still reloading some programs, but so far so good. 

Again, watch carefully for the bogus program "Antivirus 8". It is a Trojan virus itself.

Evan


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Just curious, how often people run the WBB drill in their training program

Thanks


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

There is no hard, set answer to that question, or at least there shouldn't be. In early handling I run it almost daily to advance the young dog's basic handling abilities as part of a balanced training regimen. 

In early Transition I run it every day for a while to elevate the dog's casting standards, and to move them into more literal-type casts. They also begin to take longer casts tihs way, while overcoming gradually increasing levels of suction when casting past the secodary bumper.

Later on, it becomes a maintenance drill, and its use is determined by need as to the frequency of sessions.

Evan


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Howard N said:


> I did walking BB with my first few dogs. I don't do it now. I think it takes to much time for the gains you make.
> 
> I do do a 5 legged lining and casting drill in many locations for the life of the dog. This keeps the casting sharp, well sharper than not doing it.
> 
> If I had a dog that absolutely hated drill work, who couldn't do my 5 legged drill, I'd go to walking BB, the dogs I've done it with liked it.


...Ditto...


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## duxbay (Jan 27, 2009)

I thought I figured it out reading DL's book but got Evans video and realized you need much more distance from the dog. I do this to keep my guy's tuned up.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

duxbay said:


> I thought I figured it out reading DL's book but got Evans video and realized you need much more distance from the dog. I do this to keep my guy's tuned up.


It can really make a difference if it's done right. If you can't constructively challenge your dog with WBB you're probably not doing it right, or adapting adequately.

Evan


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

got my pup back from trainer.

trainer is at the grand.

been studing walking baseball. I am about to give basic walking BB a try for the first time !


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I gave up on understanding it from D.L.'s book and bought Evan's dvd. Now I understand the basics and how to advance, I think.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I figured it out from D.L.'s book. The diagram is a distraction. You stand with your dog, and there's a dummy on the ground, to which you will give a cast. Decide what cast you want to give, right over, left over, or back. This will determine the direction you back away from your dog. Decide what you want the diversion throw to be. For example, if you're going to give a right back cast, you might want the diversion to be a left over. Throw the diversion, back away, and cast. If you run out of field, start working the other way.

It's a fun drill, but I don't use it on most dogs. It seems as though it ought to teach some important things, but most dogs get those readily without it. YMMV.

Amy Dahl


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## Lorne MacDonald (Apr 15, 2004)

Very comfortable with it and like it , as a drill. 

Spent some time with Butch Goodwin once, where he demonstrated (and simplified )it for me. He was a big help,plus you get to see what he is accomplishing with it - always a big help to have someone that knows what he (or she) is doing


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

I think I stretched it out too far at first. I shortened up my walking BB the last few session and it went much better.

Trying to do something right until I can get help from the trainer !!!


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