# EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back>?



## splashdownoutfitters (Nov 30, 2005)

I purchased a dog from a Lady in Peyton Co. about 1yr ago.. The dog being just a year old has what the Vet calls EIC....The dog in Question is sired 2004 NFC DRAKE by a Lean Mac and Rita reynolds Bitch....After asking " Mrs Breeder'' about this .She said she would replace with another lab in a Year or 2 by another FC sired stud to her bitch whom is running trails right now....Mrs bREEDER also wants the dog back to examine it...Why Cant I just for a spay and get 2 vets opinions instead of having to fly the dog back to Colorado and spending even more money...What would you guys do out there?
Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

It depends. I cannot vote in the poll without reading the guarantee in your contract with the breeder. 

It appears you are a breeder. How does your contract read and how would you handle it?

Russ


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

You listed the breeders full name and place of residence. Please list your full name and place of residence. That way this POLL might not look quit so one sided!!! :? HPW


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## B. A. (Feb 4, 2005)

HarryWilliams said:


> You listed the breeders full name and place of residence. Please list your full name and place of residence. That way this POLL might not look quit so one sided!!! :? HPW


The original poster has provided his website, do you need more?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Russ said:


> It depends. I cannot vote in the poll without reading the guarantee in your contract with the breeder.
> 
> It appears you are a breeder. How does your contract read and how would you handle it?
> 
> Russ


Ditto!!! Seems like she's trying to work with you.... Granted at a added expense but them's the breaks.... Was EIC covered in your contract with the breeder????

What solid information did the breeder have about EIC with this particular breeding before it took place? Chances are not much or none. So is that the breeders fault??? Maybe you should have researched more in the way of pedigrees before making the purchase as far as genetic flaws????? Check once then double check before buying a pedigree. Buyer beware......

Angie


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## M Remington (Feb 16, 2006)

She's being reasonable and unreasonable. First, the fact that she is willing to replace a dog that wasn't guaranteed (I would assume) against EIC is nice of her.

On the other hand, she wants the dog back thinking that you and your family are attached to it and will never give up the valued family pet. Who knows, you may later see the dog for sale as a started dog.

I have always made ANY major defect good (whether in the contract or not). At the end of the day, when I look in the mirror I don't want there to be any question as to whether I screwed someone or not.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

I've never understood why a breeder would want a dog back that cannot be trained or bred due to health issues. Spay/neuter should be enough. The only reason I can imagine is that the breeder may think you are now attached and don't want to have the dog put down or taken back - so they won't have to honor a guarantee. But in this case of EIC, neither the owner or the breeder knows that it is NFC Drake, yet it's implied by the fact that the breeder wants to give you another pup out of her bitch in a year or two - can't figure that either.

As for whether EIC is covered in the guarantee or not - the right thing for a breeder to do if a dog cannot be used for it's intended purpose (whether trials, HTs or hunting) due to inherited disease, is to be willing to work something out with the buyer for either a new pup or some portion of the purchase price refunded. In this case it seems the breeder has that inclination but I don't agree with the fly the dog back & examination. Just not enough information to vote, however.


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## Russell Archer (Jul 8, 2004)

You just listed two great dogs and one legend as carriers of E.I.C., have I missed something? Has E.I.C. been proven to be genetic? I am sorry that your dog has this terrible "disorder" but, wouldn't it be better to know for sure how this "disorder" is contracted before you list names?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Russell Archer said:


> You just listed two great dogs and one legend as carriers of E.I.C., have I missed something? Has E.I.C. been proven to be genetic? I am sorry that your dog has this terrible "disorder" but, wouldn't it be better to know for sure how this "disorder" is contracted before you list names?


Not much doubt EIC is inherited, just that the mode of inheritance is not yet known.


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## Lisa S. (May 23, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> I've never understood why a breeder would want a dog back that cannot be trained or bred due to health issues. Spay/neuter should be enough. The only reason I can imagine is that the breeder may think you are now attached and don't want to have the dog put down or taken back - so they won't have to honor a guarantee. But in this case of EIC, neither the owner or the breeder knows that it is NFC Drake, yet it's implied by the fact that the breeder wants to give you another pup out of her bitch in a year or two - can't figure that either.
> 
> As for whether EIC is covered in the guarantee or not - the right thing for a breeder to do if a dog cannot be used for it's intended purpose (whether trials, HTs or hunting) due to inherited disease, is to be willing to work something out with the buyer for either a new pup or some portion of the purchase price refunded. In this case it seems the breeder has that inclination but I don't agree with the fly the dog back & examination. Just not enough information to vote, however.


Does the owner want to spend the money to do the lab work the breeder says she is going to do? It sounds to me like she'd like to pay to have the tests done to prove or disprove the EIC diagnosis by owners vet. Bet that would cost more than the shipping amount back.


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## splashdownoutfitters (Nov 30, 2005)

Russ I havent ever written anything in my contract about EIC just as the Breeder I purchased from did not ....I am not a breeder by anymeans
I have had a (meaning 1) in the last 4 yrs...Not a breeder by anymeans...I just wanted a pup out of the sire I chose and knew my bitch very well....Anyway....If one pup comes down with this Disease I will honor the choice of what ever the peoples want..Money or another dog....Im real gun shy right now about taking another pup....Due to the fact as not enough is know @ this point......


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> Im real gun shy right now about taking another pup....Due to the fact as not enough is know @ this point......


So it's O.K., that you got a flawed pup with a genetic disease that no one knows enough about, to get compensation from the breeder. But it's not O.K. for the breeder, who has no more information than you did about this disease to have stipulations to a replacement???? Also that the contract that you agreed to, did not cover this genetic flaw. Where's the logic there????

Angie


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

splashdownoutfitters said:


> Russ I havent ever written anything in my contract about EIC just as the Breeder I purchased from did not ....I am not a breeder by anymeans
> I have had a (meaning 1) in the last 4 yrs...Not a breeder by anymeans...I just wanted a pup out of the sire I chose and knew my bitch very well....Anyway....If one pup comes down with this Disease I will honor the choice of what ever the peoples want..Money or another dog....Im real gun shy right now about taking another pup....Due to the fact as not enough is know @ this point......


Sorry, I went to the Splash Down Outfitters website and saw the puppy section. It looked like you were a regular breeder.

I assume you knew the existence of EIC before you purchased the pup and still bought it without a guarantee. Now you are chastizing the breeder by name in a public forum because she will go beyond the contract you accepted but with some conditions. 

Where does the biggest ethical difficience lie??

Russ


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

M Remington said:


> She's being reasonable and unreasonable. First, the fact that she is willing to replace a dog that wasn't guaranteed (I would assume) against EIC is nice of her.
> 
> On the other hand, she wants the dog back thinking that you and your family are attached to it and will never give up the valued family pet.


I concur.

I'd keep negotiating.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Most guaratees that require you to surrender the dog are betting by the time problems occur you are so emotionally attached to the animal you won't give it up.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> First, the fact that she is willing to replace a dog that wasn't guaranteed (I would assume) against EIC is nice of her.


Absolutely.



> On the other hand, she wants the dog back thinking that you and your family are attached to it and will never give up the valued family pet. Who knows, you may later see the dog for sale as a started dog.


That isn't how I read the original post. He stated that the breeder wanted the dog back to be examined. He said nothing about the breeder wanting to keep the dog before she would replace it. It's not the first time that a breeder wanted their vets to examine the dog before any arrangements were made. There is no test for EIC. It's diagnosis is made through elimination. As a breeder I would want my vet/vets to examine the dog before anything is done. If only to better my breeding program.



> I have always made ANY major defect good (whether in the contract or not). At the end of the day, when I look in the mirror I don't want there to be any question as to whether I screwed someone or not.


I agree, a reasonable, amicable agreement can be reached by both parties. 

I feel it's unreasonable to expect any breeder to cover EIC. At this time not enough is known about it. With CMA we knew what pedigrees through it more or less. But not so with EIC. If we don't have a test or enough information on what pedigrees throw it, how can a breeder be reasponsible?????

Being the devils advocate,

Angie


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Was the dog purchased as a pup?

How did you determine that the dog had EIC? Have you performed the numerous expensive diagnostic tests to eliminate the other conditions that present similiar symptoms?

If you have not performed the diagnostic testing, I understand why the breeder would want the dog returned to her to have the diagnostic tests done to rule out other causes.

Usually there is more than one affected pup in a litter. You may want to ask the breeder if there are other affected pups reported to her from this breeding.

It's a devasting disease and I am sorry that you are experiencing it with your dog. However, I do understand why the breeder would like the dog returned to perform testing if this has not been done. I have experienced EIC with a few dogs over the years, and I certainly understand your frustration.

However, there is no diagnostic tests to determine carriers currently, so it can show up at any time in any litter and there is always that risk. 

I would continue to work with the breeder toward a satisfactory resolution.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Most guaratees that require you to surrender the dog are betting by the time problems occur you are so emotionally attached to the animal you won't give it up.


That is true in the case of OFA's but in this case the condition can't be proven yet and it most likely wasn't in the guarantee and she has no obligation to do anything that is not stated in her guarantee. This is a case where the breeder is working with you. Look at it from the breeders standpoint: since there is no laboratory or genetic test to prove a condition, you can't give her a vet report stating it is certainly EIC. The inheritance is still unknown until the data is published. This is not like an OFA or CERF where it can be proven. She wants to have the dog back to make certain that it is that problem for sure in regards to her changing her breeding program. People have to realize no breeder has a crystal ball and when a dog who wasn't bred much gets nationally titled and everyone flocks to him to breed, it is going to take a few years for problems to surface. You have to also realize there is always that percentage of people out there that flat out lie until asked to prove a condition, and who will even try to get another dog because they like the first dog (and I am not implying that is the case here, but it has happened to me). I say kudos to the breeder.


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back&*



splashdownoutfitters said:


> I purchased a dog from a Lady in Peyton Co. about 1yr ago.. The dog being just a year old has what the Vet calls EIC....The dog in Question is sired 2004 NFC DRAKE by a Lean Mac and Rita reynolds Bitch....After asking " Mrs Breeder'' about this .She said she would replace with another lab in a Year or 2 by another FC sired stud to her bitch whom is running trails right now....Mrs bREEDER also wants the dog back to examine it...Why Cant I just for a spay and get 2 vets opinions instead of having to fly the dog back to Colorado and spending even more money...What would you guys do out there?
> Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
> Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
> SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?


I find it interesting that the subject of the poll is "should the breeder buy the dog back" but the actual question is "should I have to send the dog back" It's not the same issue.

The circumstances are ones that weren't forseen, yet the breeder's willing to work with you on it. Count yourself fortunate - she wouldn't have to. I don't blame her for wanting more information in regards to what her breeding program has produced.

I also say "Kudos to the breeder." Count yourself lucky that you can get out of this for $300, if out of it's what you want. Dogs are gambles, every one of them, in some way. If you want to play, you have to assume some of the risk.


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## Pasquatch (Jun 1, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> > You have to also realize there is always that percentage of people out there that flat out lie until asked to prove a condition, and who will even try to get another dog because they like the first dog (and I am not implying that is the case here, but it has happened to me). I say kudos to the breeder.
> 
> 
> Years ago I talked to a long time breeder that was told one of her puppies (she had sold) had PRA. She was convinced her popular stud could not have produced this condition. She was certain it was not the pup she had sold - but could not prove it . She said all future pups would have Permanant ID. She was certain it was an attempt to discredit her stud.
> ...


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## Russell Archer (Jul 8, 2004)

> Personally, I think you could have asked your question without naming names; Peoples or Dogs.


I agree 100% 

Let's wait until more is known about this disorded, especially how it is transmitted before such bold statements are made, i.e. EIC FROM 2004 NFC x LEAN MAC.


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## M Remington (Feb 16, 2006)

The original post discussed the breeding--nothing malicious there. Then, the original post discussed how a person trained in caring for animals (DVM) felt it was EIC. I don't see anything malicious there either.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that most of the ailments that dogs have are hereditary. Anyone who feels that EIC is not hereditary probably feels that until a genetic marker for hip dysplasia and PRA are found, diet must be the cause.


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## splashdownoutfitters (Nov 30, 2005)

Russell Archer said:


> > Personally, I think you could have asked your question without naming names; Peoples or Dogs.
> 
> 
> I agree 100%
> ...


Buddy the facts speak for them selves "It is what it is"
Thats the bloodline and EIC is from that somewhere.. you cant take it out on context....I just wanted everyone out there to know that this condition did occur with this particular breeding....What dog EIC is from remains to be seen.....But I will also let all know that I have been contacted by several individuals that Know the breeder personally and knows what kind of person she is to deal with.....This is not her first confrontation with an issue such as this...I have several names and #s of people whom have come out of the wood work and contacted me on this very post to let me know there particular problems with the "Breeder"
I in no way lay Fault on EIC to Drake or Lean Mac but just wanted people to be aware that this did happen and what bloodlines maybe carry the heinous disease....


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## Lisa S. (May 23, 2003)

Did you contact the stud owner and let him know that your dog has exhibited EIC? 

One of the questions I ask when considering a stud dog to breed my girls is "what poor genetic physical traits has your dog thrown?" If no one contacts the studs owner how will the breeders get their answers? It's not to "blame" one dog in particular, but if the cross between stud A and dog B has produced a problem, and my girl has bloodlines real close to dog B: It's not in the best interest of anyone to repeat a possible problem.


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

M Remington states:



> I have always made ANY major defect good (whether in the contract or not). At the end of the day, when I look in the mirror I don't want there to be any question as to whether I screwed someone or not


Amen MR, that is the attitude everyone should use in every aspect of life not just breeding!! It is a [email protected] shame that people want to hide behind a piece of paper in regards to doing the right thing.

I am sorry, regardless if it is EIC or not get the vet reports give the guy his money, spay the dog and let him keep it. Hopefully you breeders are not breeding so many of these so-called "sick" dogs that they are going to go broke rectifying a bad situation. If this is truly what most call a pup with a "fluke genetic issue" then take care of your 1 in a million mistake like a moral and ethical person and roll on.

As said before, EIC is a real condition currently being carried by and affecting tons of FT labs, which are propagating as you read this. So until a test is found, I would be willing to wager we won?t see EIC listed in a guarantee any time soon. So yes it is, buyers beware or is it buyers bend over.


Michael
DISCLAIMER- I am extremely bias on this issue!


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## h england (Nov 5, 2005)

i will be putting a guarantee for eic on my pups and all breeders should if a problem should occur a full refund will be sent to purchaser and a letter of apolagy for any inconveniences caused on expences occuring not to mention the agony of having to care for a sick animal the rest of its life especially if kids are involved in the situation


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

> Thats the bloodline and EIC is from that somewhere.. you cant take it out on context....I just wanted everyone out there to know that this condition did occur with this particular breeding


.

Oh, I thought you wanted to know if the breeder should let you keep the dog and refund your money.



> the agony of having to care for a sick animal the rest of its life


I owned one of initial dogs involved in the U of Sask. study. She couldn't compete but she certainly wasn't sickly. She lived the life that most labs live in a pet home.

Here's how I voted. If I make a purchase and I know all the risks involved with that purchase I assume that risk if it isn't covered by the warranty. 
Lyle


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

M Remington said:


> probably feels that until a genetic marker for hip dysplasia and PRA are found, diet must be the cause.



Have you checked the Optigen site lately?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

M Remington wrote:



> You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that most of the ailments that dogs have are hereditary. Anyone who feels that EIC is not hereditary probably feels that until a genetic marker for hip dysplasia and PRA are found, diet must be the cause.


That has to be one of the most ignorant, uneducated and unfair statements I've seen here on RTF. 

You get the boobie prize buddy......... 8) 

Angie


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## M Remington (Feb 16, 2006)

Angie, there are a lot of people who would agree with me on the genetic basis for many ailments. As far as PRA, I did misspeak.

As far as the boobie prize--it won't be the first and it surely won't be the last. You've earned a few in your life too!


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

*Eic*

I would say Spay or nueter the dog, you keep it and I would refund the purchase price. A friend bought a pup that was guaranteed for hips eyes and any genetic disease dog ended up with degenerative joint disease and elbow dysplacia at a year and the breeder said to bad elbows are not guaranteed.


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## h england (Nov 5, 2005)

lyle i allso had a dog in the initial testing this dog can live as a pet but you allways have to watch for kids throwing stuff like balls frisbees etc as she goes down easily my brother know owns the dog and had to save her while swimming because kids threw a ball into the water i have a friend who has an affected dog that cannot play with other dogs without having an attack my thoughts are any dog that has produced eic should not be bred again everyone says for the betterment of the breed than prove it dont knowingly breed crap it is no different than cnm anyone breeding untested bitches or studs are ignorant to breeding labs it does not matter how good the dog is its playing russian roulette at the expence of the breed


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

M Remington said:


> Angie, there are a lot of people who would agree with me on the genetic basis for many ailments. As far as PRA, I did misspeak.
> 
> As far as the boobie prize--it won't be the first and it surely won't be the last. You've earned a few in your life too!


You misspoke on hip dysplasia..... Don't mix apples and oranges. Try not to be so emotional about a black and white issue. That is as far as genetics are concerned.

Me earn the boobie prize???? Nooooooo.............  Not me?????

Angie


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

h england said:


> lyle i allso had a dog in the initial testing this dog can live as a pet but you allways have to watch for kids throwing stuff like balls frisbees etc as she goes down easily my brother know owns the dog and had to save her while swimming because kids threw a ball into the water i have a friend who has an affected dog that cannot play with other dogs without having an attack my thoughts are any dog that has produced eic should not be bred again everyone says for the betterment of the breed than prove it dont knowingly breed crap it is no different than cnm anyone breeding untested bitches or studs are ignorant to breeding labs it does not matter how good the dog is its playing russian roulette at the expence of the breed


h, would you consider punctuation and capitalization? Pretty please?


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

hhlabradors said:


> h, would you consider punctuation and capitalization? Pretty please?


Next thing, you'll want him to be wearing a clean shirt and saying please and thank you!!! :wink: HPW


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> hhlabradors said:
> 
> 
> > h, would you consider punctuation and capitalization? Pretty please?
> ...


Maybe if he didn't speak with the skoal between his "cheek and gum"....

That could help don't ya think?????

Angie


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## h england (Nov 5, 2005)

sorry i am not a computer type guy but i am real good at skoal


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Having had experience with a similiar situation many years ago, this is how I would approach the problem (if you want to keep the dog). I would ask if I could provide the medical tests required at my location and have the testing vet send the report/results directly to the breeder. 

In my situation many years ago, I provided the needed documentation. The breeder replaced the dog and allowed us to keep the 1st puppy. That being said, the pup with the problem was virtually worthless for hunting and could only be a house pet for his entire life - 16 years of it. 

Getting real, guarantees are only as good as the moral fiber of those involved both the purchaser and the seller. Come to think of it, I'm not sure that we had any kind of written guarantee - just a handshake...


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Wow, I am really surprised by some of the responses and reactions here. I can't imagine anyone expecting any breeder to be responsible for every genetic issue that may pop up. Maybe its the "not my fault" society we live in, I don't know. Those of you that are breeder that are saying you handle any and all genetic issues, more power to you but I think its a bad precedent to some extent.

Look, I have never been a fan of guarantees. I think they were started in a day when access to information was extremely limited. It allowed the buyer to have a little assurance that the breeder did everything in their power to prevent issues. That they weren't just hap hazardly breeding any two dogs that could. 
In todays information age I think the buyer has access to as much information as the breeder. Now to start throwing in issues that nobody can foresee for sure...bad precedent IMO. What next, my dog is fat cause he has the fat gene? 

Just so nobody misunderstands, I do understand the reasons for guarantees. If I breed a litter, I will offer them for whatever genetic issues we can test for and try to limit. I just can't imagine approaching the breeder with a genetic issue like EIC or even CNM(in a litter from before this test was available) and expecting anything in return.

This breeder is going above and beyond IMO and to complain that she is asking for anything is a little low.


Do your research, buy your pup, and take your chances regards, 

Russ


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I'm with ya there Russ. Do your research and hope for the best. And don't expect anyone else to take all the risk.

Kinda like having kids. 

Nothing is 100%

Angie


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

I would like to ask the breeders responding to this post again, are you guys having that many pups with genetic problems ?popping up? that you can't afford monetarily or ethically to take responsibility for what you are producing? The folks here are not talking about a fat dog but one that drags its legs after a couple retrieves.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Dogguy said:


> I would like to ask the breeders responding to this post again, are you guys having that many pups with genetic problems ?popping up? that you can't afford monetarily or ethically to take responsibility for what you are producing? The folks here are not talking about a fat dog but one that drags its legs after a couple retrieves.


How about ethically taking responsibility for what you are buying? :roll:


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## Lisa S. (May 23, 2003)

Dogguy said:


> I would like to ask the breeders responding to this post again, are you guys having that many pups with genetic problems ?popping up? that you can't afford monetarily or ethically to take responsibility for what you are producing? The folks here are not talking about a fat dog but one that drags its legs after a couple retrieves.


This would all be so much easier if the dog had HD or didn't pass CERF because a refund would make it all OK? 

Having a dog with HD, ED or EIC or any other problem is upsetting to say the least. We take our lumps and try again. If I remember correctly the breeder tried working with you, some of us haven't been so lucky.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

It is a wide swath of cotton you are cutting with this trhread and poll.
One is left with the impression that EIC is implied to be covered in the contract though in your own words it is not directly mentioned.

I would suggest you speak to the breeder and come to a compromise; you ask if the breeder will be satisfied with an independent diagnosis from a specialist in the field of EIC in your state. That will save the cost of shipping the dog. If the dog is confirmed to have EIC then that begs the question what t do with the dog. If your dog was to be a working/competition dog or just a pet that may change some what the refund or replacement leverage you have with the breeder.

In a contract I use the breeder will refund the purchase price of the pup if the dog is found to have any inheritable disease that would adversely impact the the performance of the dog. This clause is in addition to to the commonly known and stated diseases of Labrador Retrievers.

Further there is a short time line on refund once a diagnosis establishes the disease.The buyer of the pup should not have to waite unduly for the refund.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

achiro said:


> Wow, I am really surprised by some of the responses and reactions here. I can't imagine anyone expecting any breeder to be responsible for every genetic issue that may pop up. Maybe its the "not my fault" society we live in, I don't know. Those of you that are breeder that are saying you handle any and all genetic issues, more power to you but I think its a bad precedent to some extent.
> Russ[/quote
> 
> The "Not My Fault" mentality can be compared also to any breeder who produces pups that are not able to function in a normal way. A risk of producing a litter is that you might not have healthy pups AND you might not profit on the sale of every pup in the litter. Have you ever heard the statement that "you don't make money breeding dogs"? or "the money isn't yours until the warranty period is over"?
> ...


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

achiro said:


> I do understand the reasons for guarantees. If I breed a litter, I will offer them for whatever genetic issues we can test for and try to limit. I just can't imagine approaching the breeder with a genetic issue like EIC or even CNM(in a litter from before this test was available) and expecting anything in return. This breeder is going above and beyond IMO and to complain that she is asking for anything is a little low. Do your research, buy your pup, and take your chances regards, Russ


I have to agree with Russ on this one. I have a bitch that is tested for everything I can think of to test for. If she was to produce a pup with EIC or any other disease that we don't understand or have a test for, I would feel like I have done my due diligence and the buyer can share in the risk. A breeder should do as much as he can but there is a limit.


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

HarryWilliams said:


> hhlabradors said:
> 
> 
> > h, would you consider punctuation and capitalization? Pretty please?
> ...



Well, it's not like I asked him to take his hat off in the house and his boots off at the door... :wink:


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

A breeder has no responsibility for inherited disease in their pups, which as a breeder they bred, unless it's covered in a written guarantee? You have got to be kidding. I understand it's not intentional but nonetheless, they have responsiiblity because they are the breeder & took money for a pup based upon its titled pedigree & its potential. The inherited disease took away that potential, therefore some consideration is due the pup buyer - if nothing more than the difference in price for a "couch potato (as has been said) vs. a healthy pup capable of being a working retriever. I guess some folks have no conscience.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> I guess some folks have no conscience.


First of all... :roll: times 1000000000000000000000000000000000000

Second of all, I research the pups I buy. I know everything possible genetically that may pop up before I write the check. MY conscience wouldn't allow me to take money back from a breeder if something popped up outside the things we have the ability to test for.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

achiro said:


> ...I research the pups I buy. I know everything possible genetically that may pop up before I write the check.


You may well do your due diligence, & all should, but since many breeders and stud owners likely have not done the prior research or are not willing to tell you everything they know their dog has produced, I doubt you know quite as much as you may think. But that's the environment we live in - especially when it comes to inherited disease that many know are there but refuse to discuss.



achiro said:


> ...MY conscience wouldn't allow me to take money back from a breeder if something popped up outside the things we have the ability to test for.


Misplaced logic, I think. First of all, we don't test for OFA clearances or CERF results, professionals in the vet medicine field make observations & predictions that result in an OFA & CERF status yet I'm guessing you would take a refund for a pup not passing either. Next, the idea that medical professionals & researchers require a "test" to prove or diagnose is both a misunderstanding of the process of medical diagnosis in many cases and is incorrect. There are very few diseases & conditions where a "test" exists to "prove" a disease or condition. Diagnosis is more generally done but eliminating other diseases, classifying a disease by it's known symptoms, by observing measurable symptoms & bodily parameters - and by observing the ancestry in the case of inherited disease. Research into EIC has done all of these things & many dogs have been diagnosed with EIC. To claim EIC doesn't exist or claim its observance in progeny can't be known by breeders & stud owners because it isn't listed on an AKC pedigree is to bury your head in the sand - and gives the unethical all the room they need to continue to produce progeny that either carry or are affected by this or other awful inherited conditions. Notwithstanding the logic of your conscience, I would hope that breeders & stud owners that price their pups or service on the titles and performance of their dogs would be willing to reduce that price when it is determined that the pup doesn't have that potential (& never did) because of inherited disease.


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 25, 2003)

I think I have the solution. If I ever become a breeder I will do like sears and best Buy does, For a price you can get an extended garuntee. 

I'm only half joking.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Next, the idea that medical professionals & researchers require a "test" to prove or diagnose is both a misunderstanding of the process of medical diagnosis in many cases and is incorrect. There are very few diseases & conditions where a "test" exists to "prove" a disease or condition. Diagnosis is more generally done but eliminating other diseases, classifying a disease by it's known symptoms, by observing measurable symptoms & bodily parameters - and by observing the ancestry in the case of inherited disease.


Granddaddy, my patients call me Dr. Anderson. I am well aware of the process of diagnosis. Thanks for the lesson though.



Granddaddy said:


> Research into EIC has done all of these things & many dogs have been diagnosed with EIC. To claim EIC doesn't exist or claim its observance in progeny can't be known by breeders & stud owners because it isn't listed on an AKC pedigree is to bury your head in the sand - and gives the unethical all the room they need to continue to produce progeny that either carry or are affected by this or other awful inherited conditions.


Nobody has said that EIC does not exist. What we have said is that any thought that it is inherited is still theory. Probably correct but then how is it inherited. Again, theory. All indications are that it will eventually be PROVEN that it is but so far it isn't. Next, and to the point of my earlier posts, There is no way for a breeder to know for sure that EIC is a possibility any more than the buyer.(unless of course an earlier litter had affecteds) If someone chooses to guarantee against it, more power to them. 




Granddaddy said:


> the logic of your conscience, I would hope that breeders & * stud* owners that price their pups or service on the titles and performance of their dogs would be willing to reduce that price when it is determined that the pup doesn't have that potential (& never did) because of inherited disease.


Stud owners are financially liable now? Thats one I've never heard before. :roll: 

Its very easy. If you as the buyer want to have a guarantee against every genetic problem(and ones that may or may not be genetic) good luck finding a quality pup. I know there are a few, I'm sure that the ones who have posted here that they cover anything have fine pups. But to expect someone to refund for a health issue that may or may not be genetic, and has no way to know more about it than the buyer, is beyond IMO.


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

achiro said:


> Stud owners are financially liable now? Thats one I've never heard before. :roll:
> 
> Its very easy. If you as the buyer want to have a guarantee against every genetic problem(and ones that may or may not be genetic) good luck finding a quality pup. I know there are a few, I'm sure that the ones who have posted here that they cover anything have fine pups. But to expect someone to refund for a health issue that may or may not be genetic, and has no way to know more about it than the buyer, is beyond IMO.



Everyone owes JQP when something goes wrong. Everyone is responsible. Except him.

We are supposed to put in years of blood, sweat and tears. Wash out dogs ourselves, lose mountains of money. Invest thousands upon thousands of dollars. Test for everything known and somehow be absolutely all-knowing about stuff that isn't known. Wrack our brains, lose sleep, put our bitches' lives at risk. Sell absolutely perfect puppies, guaranteed, for a few measly hundred bucks (because God forbid, anyone make a profit) and still be the mattress padding for any potential stumble the buyer may make. And then put up with these same buyers getting on the internet and trashing our dogs' reputations and our own?

Hog wash. For some people, no matter what you do, it's just never good enough.

I am "owed" "replacement" puppies I won't collect. I've never taken, or asked for, money back. The breeders did the best they could, I did the best I could, and like lots of other things in life, there were unexpected curve balls.

I just put my Big Girl Panties on and decided to deal with it.


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## M Remington (Feb 16, 2006)

> MY conscience wouldn't allow me to take money back from a breeder if something popped up outside the things we have the ability to test for.


You're either independently wealthy or trying for sainthood. If I drop $3500 for a puppy, in addition to a refund if anything crops up, I even expect his crap to smell like roses!


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

M Remington said:


> You're either independently wealthy or trying for sainthood. If I drop $3500 for a puppy, in addition to a refund if anything crops up, I even expect his crap to smell like roses!


Thanks for the warning... :wink: 

(Note to self: Headache and ulcer alert: Do not sell to...)


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Wooo Hoooo Eleanor!!! You go girl!!!! :wink: :wink: 

With the attitude of puppy buyers now,, why would any breeder in their right mind guarantee anything?????

The good breeders do the best they can do. If the puppy buyer doesn't think that's good enough and want the moon and the stars......... Well then maybe they should own a goldfish. Do those come with a guarantee???? :? 

Angie


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Angie B said:


> then maybe they should own a goldfish. Do those come with a guarantee???? :?
> 
> Angie


If they do, then I am owed a LOT of goldfish! I can't keep those darn things alive for anything...


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2006)

You know, this brings up something I've always wondered about... Why IS the stud not responsible for any portion of damages resulting from inherited genetic diseases? ESPECIALLY those known to be inherited only as a result of the sire/dam combo -- no matter how hard the breeder tried to avoid them.

Why is it all the dam's fault? I've thought that there should be a percentage of the stud fee returned on puppies who have to enforce a guarantee???? Why wouldn't that work? So if a stud fee is $1000... Bitch had 10 puppies. One dog comes back with an enforceable health guarantee... Stud owes $100 towards that pup's refund. Or something like that...

Why not?? I mean I know this would REQUIRE the stud owner to AGREE with the puppy health guarantee OR have specific diseases/conditions for which they will refund a portion of the stud fee. Am I the only one that things this makes sense?

I'm not poo-poo'ing studs by ANY means. I just wonder why the bitch owner assumes TOTAL financial liability for inherited diseases/conditions when they paid money for the use of the stud.

-K


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

_Well folks, welcome to the $20,000 puppy with a 100% guarantee_.

Ok, I deleted the dandruff part but where is the line drawn as to who perceives what is a genetic defect? What I meant is I know people that believe any defect is hereditary and the breeder is responsible.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Dandruff ... EIC

Sorry, don't see how that relates...there is no comparison here...


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

This is Cleo and, speaking as a breeder, I just have to add my 2 cents.
First - if 'people' were as careful in their breeding of each other as most of us 'dog' breeders are, it would most likely be a much better world and fewer people to cause traffic jams. Seems like todays generations want to be completely covered from the womb to the tomb and take no responsibility at all for their actions.

Seriously, stop and think about it. How much control does a breeder have on a pup once it leaves the kennel? We have no idea what environment it goes to. Ideally we hope that the buyer will follow our instructions but Alaska is a long way from Mississippi. I can't tell if the buyer thinks fat puppies are so cute and overfeeds it to attain this 'look' even if I have stressed the damage overfeeding can do to the developing hips. Look at those fools who think it is macho to ride their pup, unrestrained, in the back of the Pick Up and then allows this young dog to jump off the tail gate and possibally jamb those shoulders. Think of all the stupid things we allow and do to our dogs.

We feel that we have a very generous guarantee and honor hips and eyes. We also take into consideration other problems that might arise and deal with it as equitiably as we can. Know this about me though, I am as nice and as easy to work with as YOU allow me, BUT get ugly and unreasonable and the 'head bitch in the kennel' will come out from under the porch and bite you on the leg.

By the way - good news. All five of our girls, Dee Dee, Dolly, Goosie, Tootie and Lady are all CNM clean, Praise the Lord.
________
DariusAnnie live


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Bill Watson said:


> This is Cleo We feel that we have a very generous guarantee and honor hips and eyes. We also take into consideration other problems that might arise and deal with it as equitiably as we can. Know this about me though, I am as nice and as easy to work with as YOU allow me, BUT get ugly and unreasonable and the 'head bitch in the kennel' will come out from under the porch and bite you on the leg.


Cleo, I am doing the wave for you here in Wisconsin. That's exactly the way it should be!

Congratulations on the wonderful CNM reports!

Regards,


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## Kevin Mays (Feb 20, 2003)

I have bought some really nice pups before. NONE came with any guarantee. I have paid as much as $3500. I have sold pups for $3000 and i have never given any guarantees on FT breedings and never had anyone ask for one.. I did have a ht bitch (mh,hrch) that i did give hips and eyes on her breedings but wont in the future. I am not a breeder and may not be able to replace your pup with an equal dog. I have one litter every 2-3 yrs or so.

You need to do your research when you buy a pup. Most of the people here in the ft game understand the risk with buying a pup. take your lumps and move on. The chance of having a washout is way greater than having diseases that keep them from running and competing. Are breeders suppose to give your money back cause your dog cant mark or run staright. Poor water entry. Lack of style. The consumer has to bear risk in the transaction. Buying pups is not a riskless transaction.


If you want to play put your big boys pants on and take your chances. If you buy the wrong breeding learn from your mistakes and move on.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

To read this tread ALL breeders are doing everything right & the best they can. ALL buyers wanting a refund for an inherited disease are classified as accepting no responsibility.

First, ALL breeders are not doing everything they can. Several high profile stud owners know they are producing pups with EIC from multiple bitches, yet they continue to take stud fees - that's NOT doing "everything they can". Worse, these same high profile stud owners don't tell their clients about these prior progeny results, even when asked while falling all over themselves to sing the praises of anything positive about their stud. It's "show me the money" & I'm out of here.

Same for some less than forthright breeders. So why guarantee anything? Because these unethical stud owners & breeders are giving the good ones a bad name & causing many pup buyers to suspect them all. Further, these $3500+ pups are represented as particularily suited for the tasks of a working retriever, so if they can't do anything but sit on the couch due to the breeding itself (not what happens after the pups is sold), there should be some equitable adjustment in the price to represent the couch potato, his keep during his first 6-8 wks, etc (& based upon the circumstances this may include both the breeder & stud owner).

And it's not a question of IF EIC is inherited, it's just a matter of how (just read the published research). This is no different than the environment that has previously surrounded CNM. Many knew of dogs that passed CNM but the few unethical stud owners & breeders of some of these carrier dogs kept right on - business as usual, "show me the money". The CNM test just shows them for what they were all along - but more importantly it does give the guy (the ethical breeder, stud owner, & buyer) doing due diligence, a means to "prove" what he suspected but couldn't get anyone to admit.


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## Latisha (Feb 2, 2004)

kristie said:


> I'm not poo-poo'ing studs by ANY means. I just wonder why the bitch owner assumes TOTAL financial liability for inherited diseases/conditions when they paid money for the use of the stud.
> 
> -K


When the bitch owner starts giving the stud a percentage of the sales of each pup, then that might make more sense. Besides, the studs may not be liable financially but it is their reputation on the line. The boys get blamed for every little thing as it is.

Oh, and back to the point of this thread. I think the breeder is going above and beyond what is required in their contract. How can one fault them? Since none of this is covered in the original contract, it is up to the buyer and the breeder to amicably work out an agreement *cough* privately *cough* that works for both of them. 

Latisha


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Eleanor, thank you for the kind words. Bill and I have always tried to treat our buyers, and people in general, like we would like to be treated. (Not often treated that way these days - but we still try), just the way we were raised.
________
HotDemmi


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Kevin Mays said:


> You need to do your research when you buy a pup. Most of the people here in the ft game understand the risk with buying a pup. take your lumps and move on. The chance of having a washout is way greater than having diseases that keep them from running and competing. Are breeders suppose to give your money back cause your dog cant mark or run staright. Poor water entry. Lack of style. The consumer has to bear risk in the transaction. Buying pups is not a riskless transaction.
> 
> If you want to play put your big boys pants on and take your chances. If you buy the wrong breeding learn from your mistakes and move on.


Although I currently give a health guarantee with all my pups, you certainly have me reconsidering that policy now, Kevin. I had never thought of the health risks in the same light as that of washing out a dog because he didn't have the talent to play the game.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

kristie said:


> Why IS the stud not responsible for any portion of damages resulting from inherited genetic diseases?



Actually, the dam is picking the stud....... not usually the other way around. Biggest thing in my book. dam owners are charged with the duty of doing the home work, just like buyers. However, if a sire does have some inherent difficulty, the sire owner needs to put the cards on the table, when asked. And as Latisha said, they certainly don't share in a % of the "profits."


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## gone2thedogs (Jan 25, 2006)

Wow,
What a wide variety of opinions here...... I guess that I was lucky that the breeder that I purchased my pup that developed EIC refunded my money without me even asking. Yes, I did take part in the Auburn study with her and she is just a house dog now. She will live a happy life, be well cared for and loved. She just won't be able to do what she was bred to do, which she loves to do and was dang good at till she had her first episode....
Looking at the post there are lots of breeders that I would not buy from, heck I may not buy another Lab, not worth the risk, you see in my house these dogs are members of our family, not just items to be bought and returned if they don't work out. Guess I should just suck it up and be happy. Sorry, it aint gonna happen! It makes me MAD that the stud is still being bred to many dogs after multiple pups have shown EIC symptoms from two different breedings. I don't think that it is just the stud, neither should be bred if pups show EIC symptoms and testing is done to eliminate other conditions.... Just my opinion.  Silly me, I thought it should be about making the breed better, not just money..... But reality says otherwise.......


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Kevin Mays said:
> 
> 
> > You need to do your research when you buy a pup. Most of the people here in the ft game understand the risk with buying a pup. take your lumps and move on. The chance of having a washout is way greater than having diseases that keep them from running and competing. Are breeders suppose to give your money back cause your dog cant mark or run staright. Poor water entry. Lack of style. The consumer has to bear risk in the transaction. Buying pups is not a riskless transaction.
> ...


You can't guarantee a dog's performance. Too many variables, many of which are in the buyer's ball court.

Health issues are a different situation. It's one thing to bring a dog along, find out he doesn't have talent, and sell him on as a started or finished gun dog.

It's entirely other to have a dog you can't even START to train because of some health issue. The dog never gets a chance to show what it has. Some can never live normal lives. In the case of genetic issues, they land squarely in the breeder's court. 

I think when a condition is *known* and *demonstrated* to be of a heriditary nature, the breeder owes something back to the buyer. Could be a refund, a replacement, but at the very least, should come in the form of concern and caring for the dog and family, and especially in the case of someone just starting out, advice on where to go, what diagnostic tests, maybe information about the condition (whatever it is). Keeping the lines of communication open are a must, so that the breeder can help the buyer, and the buyer can keep the breeder apprised as the condition develops.

Lisa


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## h4everything (Dec 29, 2005)

I would think that it would be cheaper on her as well as you to refund some of your money on the dog. Even though whe is not good for breeding she might still make a really good gun dog. I was in a situation recently with a Chessie breeder that sent me an expensive dog with entropian eyes. (Its eyes were matted up when I picked up at the airport and vet confirmed 2 days later. The #()@$U guy offered to give me $100) Entropia wasn't specifically in the guarantee but I expected a healthy pup. If anybody wants the breeders name IM me. still very mad about getting screwed.


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

h4everything said:


> I would think that it would be cheaper on her as well as you to refund some of your money on the dog. Even though whe is not good for breeding she might still make a really good gun dog. I was in a situation recently with a Chessie breeder that sent me an expensive dog with entropian eyes. (Its eyes were matted up when I picked up at the airport and vet confirmed 2 days later. The #()@$U guy offered to give me $100) Entropia wasn't specifically in the guarantee but I expected a healthy pup. If anybody wants the breeders name IM me. still very mad about getting screwed.


Entropion is a completely different thing than EIC. It should have been identified prior to sending you the pup, if not by the breeder or the vet on the well puppy check, then when the pups' eyes were examined (you did do your homework and get a puppy from a breeder who gets the pups' eyes examined, right?)

Entropion is also repaired by a surgery that is not overly cost-prohibitive. If you wanted a potential breeding pup, you shouldn't have been sent that one. If you didn't plan to breed, the surgery should have been done before the pup was shipped and you should have gotten the pup on limited registration and a spay/neuter contract.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

hhlabradors said:


> h4everything said:
> 
> 
> > I would think that it would be cheaper on her as well as you to refund some of your money on the dog. Even though whe is not good for breeding she might still make a really good gun dog. I was in a situation recently with a Chessie breeder that sent me an expensive dog with entropian eyes. (Its eyes were matted up when I picked up at the airport and vet confirmed 2 days later. The #()@$U guy offered to give me $100) Entropia wasn't specifically in the guarantee but I expected a healthy pup. If anybody wants the breeders name IM me. still very mad about getting screwed.
> ...


Good advice, Eleanor, except for one thing.

A dog with surgically corrected entropion will have a CERF number, and no "breeder's option" notation. So it is possible for someone to get a dog's eyes corrected (tacked, when they are young), keep mum, and CERF the dog into eternity.

Has been an issue in the Chessie breed for some time.

Lisa


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## h4everything (Dec 29, 2005)

The parents had all health certs and I was looking for more than a pet/gundog. I guess I was wanting a dog that could have possibly been a brood bitch to better the breed. He sure didn't sell me the pup at a discounted pup. It cost about $300 to get the eye fixed too. My blood still boils about it when I start thinking about it.


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> A dog with surgically corrected entropion will have a CERF number, and no "breeder's option" notation. So it is possible for someone to get a dog's eyes corrected (tacked, when they are young), keep mum, and CERF the dog into eternity.
> 
> Has been an issue in the Chessie breed for some time.
> 
> Lisa


Hi Lisa,

Good point. I guess I've always figured there are ways to get around most everything if someone's devious enough, but I've not directed a lot of energy into worrying about that. I suppose I may be a bit naive.

I guess one of the things I'd hoped the entropion puppy buyer would take away from my post is that if the breeder had taken the pups in for an eye exam prior to sending them to their new homes, his/her situation would have been a lot less likely to happen. The breeder would have had to knowingly put an affected pup on the plane to an unsuspecting buyer. Perhaps he did or perhaps he didn't. With an eye exam, it would have been documented.

This goes back to the previous posts about buyers having the responsibility to do their homework and pick their breeders carefully. Not just by pedigree of the litter, not just by price of the pup, or location, or color, or whatever, but they need to read up on the things good breeders should do and and why and be certain that they're comfortable with the protocols of the breeders they choose.

You can choose not to worry because the dam's CERF isn't current, you can choose not to worry about elbow clearances, or puppy eye exams or whatever, but then you cannot choose to feel sorry for yourself and complain when your choices come back to bite you in the butt.

JMO of course :wink:


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

What does the parents having all of their health certs have to do with the puppies getting eye exams before they went to their new homes? Were you told that the puppy had had the eyes examined and passed and then sent the entropion pup? 

h (that's becoming a common name around here...) if you aren't informed enough to be asking these questions of breeders and giving their answers serious consideration, then, with all due respect, you aren't informed enough to be thinking about breeding and bettering the breed even if your bitch had turned out to be the most fabulous in the world.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Eleanor;

Again, all great advice...if we were talking about Labradors.

AFAIK, I am about the only Chessie breeder on the planet who does CERF exams on entire litters before placement. 

Likewise, we are just NOW gaining traction with elbow certifications.

So the idea that "you didn't do your due diligence, too bad for you" doesn't wash. 

Lisa


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> So the idea that "you didn't do your due diligence, too bad for you" doesn't wash.


Sometimes it doesn't fly wih labs either. We think we ask the "right" questions only to find out you didn't. Everyone says do your research - well you think you do and it still blows up in your face....it is very frustrating, but you learn real quick who you can trust and who you can't. Yeah it is a crap shoot. Yeah there are no truly clean lines out there. But its tough to get the answers especially when you get the run around. It is definately buyer beware!

FOM


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Eleanor;
> 
> Again, all great advice...if we were talking about Labradors.
> 
> ...


Well, that's pretty sad.

Still, I think it does wash. You do your research to find out what problems there are in the breed. You do your research to find out what can be done and what breeders are actually doing. At some point, you make your decision to 1) hang in there until you find the only breeder on the planet who does things the way you want, 2) you find a breed where you feel you'll be taking a more acceptable level of risk, or 3) you take your chances with your eyes open and you deal with the consequences.

With the internet there is good information readily available to those who put in the effort on the front end. I (obviously) know little about Chessies, but I bet I could get at least a good basic education about them if I wanted to.

I recently bought a field pup. I have no complaints about the transaction or about the breeder, but in the "field world" some of the breeders do things a little differently than I would insist on in my usual conformation circle. I know the areas where I relaxed my diligence, and will not be posting any polls or personal attacks if it turns out that I made a mistake in altering my expectations. My own fault, nobody forced me...


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## alaskan peakes (Aug 5, 2005)

Lisa - I'm with you........

After what I have been through with Liberty and her cataracts I have made some decisions as per my puppy guarantee. I just would want to make things right with the buyer. Even though we can't guarantee a puppy's temperment - we sure as heck can guarantee against the more common physical traits that cause physical impairment.

All puppies that come from my (future :wink: ) kennel, will have eyes checked along with their regular vet check-up. My breeding stock will have eyes cerfed yearly, and hips AND elbows ofa cleared as well.

Juli


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

alaskan peakes said:


> All dogs that come from my (future :wink: ) kennel, will have eyes checked along with their regular vet check-up. My breeding stock will have eyes cerfed yearly, and hips AND elbows ofa cleared as well.
> 
> Juli


Awesome.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Eleanor;

I hear what you are saying, and I agree...up to a point.

That point is where the informed use facts to dupe people, or shirk their responsibilities. In other words, saying "well, it's easy to fix by surgery, so I'm not going to worry about it" breed the dog/bitch and keep mum, mum, mum. When a pup crops up with it "Gee, I never had THAT happen before (nudge-nudge, wink-wink)!"

The unfortunate downside is, that the newcomer to the breed then has his/her pup's eyelids doctored, gets a CERF #, and then breeds the dog/bitch, and keeps mum. What the heck, everybody else is doing it, I can too!

Or worse (and I know of actual cases where this has happened), the affected pups in a litter get their eyes repaired before being sold. The buyer never even KNOWS the pup had a problem. They later breed the dog, and SURPRISE! 

It's a sad situation, and it's not going to change until the majority of puppy buyers demand elbow clearances, thyroid clearances, CERF exams on the pups, etc. And that's never going to happen.


Lisa


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Eleanor;
> 
> I hear what you are saying, and I agree...up to a point.
> 
> ...



Lisa, I appreciate you sharing this information. I guess it goes to show that all threads have the potential to do some good from an educational standpoint.

You've never come across as anything but informed and ethical, so you must have times when you're ready to tear your hair out. But good on you for doing the right thing, and hopefully, more and more people like Juli will get on board.

Meanwhile, if the buyers DON'T start to demand the right things be done by the pups they buy, then (where is my dead horse society mug?? :wink: ) they are contributing to the problem.

I look forward to the day when you guys post that you've made progress in this respect. It seems like a great breed and deserves to be well taken care of.


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## h4everything (Dec 29, 2005)

My name is Jason Goss. I thought my name was on my profile. I will talk to anybody that wants to talk about it. Just PM me and I will give my number to anyone who asks or I will call them on my dime to talk about it. 

The parents had all certification. I knew that chessies could have problems but I thought it was mainly from backyard breeders. He seemed very professional. I talked to some of the people he sold puppies to. 
The puppy had shots and was checked out by a vet before she was shipped. I thought a checkup was the whole body. The eye was pretty messed up. I don't know how anyone could have missed it. Everyone I showed her too thought she was cute but asked what was wrong with her eye. 

I never asked for all of my money or another puppy. I offered to spay her at my expense and just wanted half of my money back (that $450 on surgeries that shouldn't had to happen). I thought that was very fair. His offer was to spend another $200 and send her back (I had already had the surgery done) at my cost and wait another year for the next availble pup that would have cost significantly more. The original cost was $750.

That is my horror story. Maybe not the same as Splash downs problems but close enough for me to feel his pain. 

Jason Goss


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Jason, from what you're saying, I'd have to agree that you were being very reasonable. I'm sorry that you had such a lousy experience. 

Eleanor


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

hhlabradors said:


> Lisa, I appreciate you sharing this information. I guess it goes to show that all threads have the potential to do some good from an educational standpoint.
> 
> You've never come across as anything but informed and ethical, so you must have times when you're ready to tear your hair out. But good on you for doing the right thing, and hopefully, more and more people like Juli will get on board.
> 
> ...


We're getting there...but slowly.

The vast majority of Chessie buyers just want a gun dog. They could care less about even registering their dog, much less health clearances on the parents.

So the "market pressure" is not there, and I doubt it ever will be.

Next weekend, I will be competing with Gopher in obedience, rally and agility. I hope she does well, not only from a personal perspective, but also because she could be the poster child for why "He doesn't have hip dysplasia, he walks just fine" is an illusion. Unfortunately, one all too many Chessie buyers AND breeders subscribe to.

Lisa


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## alaskan peakes (Aug 5, 2005)

So - here's a hypothetical question - 
let's say you have an absolutely exceptional dog (in every way) - great temperment, just a really outstanding dog, hips and elbows clear, eyes pass cerf _ except _that he/she had a _mild_ case of entropion. Have the eyes fixed - train it like heck and it becomes the next FC AFC (or better yet NFC  ) Would you then breed that dog - knowing that in all other aspects, except the entropion eyes, the dog is truly 'great'? It would be hard not to - esp if the right mate was found - one that had the correct physical skull structure as well as natural abilities. *Yes, the breeder makes the buyers aware of the 'problem'.*

Of course the probability of this ever happining is about 10,000,000 to 1. But it's something to think about . At what point do we just make the 'leap'?
*IF* I was in this position ( now 100,000,000 to 1 odds  :lol: ) You bet I would breed.

*however*, I would not breed an average or even well above average dog that had entropion(heck I won't breed an eaverage dog anyway), nor would I buy a pup from stock that threw entropion - unless the affected parent fit the above description.

Juli


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

alaskan peakes said:


> So - here's a hypothetical question -
> let's say you have an absolutely exceptional dog (in every way) - great temperment, just a really outstanding dog, hips and elbows clear, eyes pass cerf _ except _that he/she had a _mild_ case of entropion. Have the eyes fixed - train it like heck and it becomes the next FC AFC (or better yet NFC  ) Would you then breed that dog - knowing that in all other aspects, except the entropion eyes, the dog is truly 'great'? It would be hard not to - esp if the right mate was found - one that had the correct physical skull structure as well as natural abilities. *Yes, the breeder makes the buyers aware of the 'problem'.*
> 
> Of course the probability of this ever happining is about 10,000,000 to 1. But it's something to think about . At what point do we just make the 'leap'?
> ...


This happens more often in the breed than we would like. That is the fallout from having such a small gene pool. 

Each breeder has to draw the line where he/she feels most comfortable. With a treatable condition (like entropion) it's not hard to make the leap. Where I have a problem is when nobody SAYS anything, thus removing the buyer's informed consent. Not kosher.

When I went to buy a Lab pup a few years back, the breeder told me everything they could think of, positive and negative, about the sire and dam. Not just health issues, but personality, training aspects, how the dogs ran, how they handled competition. Everything. THAT'S full disclosure. THAT'S informed consent.

For some reason, in the Chessie breed, people still adopt the "Not in OUR family!" approach to issues. This just slows down the process of breeding good dogs. 

Lisa


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## alaskan peakes (Aug 5, 2005)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> For some reason, in the Chessie breed, people still adopt the "Not in OUR family!" approach to issues. This just slows down the process of breeding good dogs.
> 
> Lisa


I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't tell propspective buyers as much as humanly possible about the sire and dam of a litter - both their strengths *and* weaknesses I would also try to tell as much about the pup's grandparents and great-grandparents as well. 

If I was buying a pup I would want to know.

Juli

Whatever happened to the golen rule?[/b]


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## M Remington (Feb 16, 2006)

The sad thing about Jason's experience is that the person who sold him the dog is a Regional Director for the American Chesapeake Club!

I'd bring this up with the ACC. We certainly don't need this type of thing happening in the organization.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I'd quit following this thread some time back but am glad Mark recalled attention to it on a Chessie board.

Fwiw, I bought a pup from Jason's breeder a year ago and have been pleased with my dealings with him, knock wood. I read his rather spare warranty as meaningless in my case, since I'm not apt to return a pup for any reason, much less one I've had for two years, and factored "no warranty" into my purchase decision. (Had warranty been of real concern to me, we'd have rewritten one or I'd have bought elsewhere.) And in any event, he had what I wanted, I bought it, and I'm glad I did.

But I'm not anxious to unwittingly pass along an inherent problem, and while I don't know that my pup will ever be bred, I don't know that it won't at this point, either. Jason, would you please PM me with the breeding your pup was out of. Much thanks in advance.


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## M Remington (Feb 16, 2006)

Rick, I completely agree. This guy produces very nice puppies. Based upon the pedigrees, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. 

If Jason did receive a puppy in that condition, he was ripped off.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

I may not be understanding the entire situation here. I would like to think that if I picked a pup up from the airport with any visible issues that I would be calling the breeder and returning the pup as soon as I could find a return flight???


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## h4everything (Dec 29, 2005)

It was last January when it happened. I am 23 years old just out of college and this was my 2nd chessie (My first pup had got hit by a car). He was breeding a bitch that was out of Stacked Deck to a Pond Hollow Stud that was a similar breeding to my first dog. He seemed really good on the phone and the people that I checked with on him. The dogs had all of the regular tests. I wish I knew about this forum a year ago.

I did call him when I picked up the dog and asked about the eyes. I told the breeder that its eyes were very matted up and asked wht he thought was wrong. He said it was probably just from the air travel. I had heard of entropian eyes before but had never seen it before. I didn't know till later what the problem was. By the time I saw what the problem was there was no way I was going to send my dog back. I never asked for a full refund. Just to refund half of my money and I would spay and limited register the dog.

The sad thing is that the puppy did perform very well. Everyone that saw her work was impressed. I am sure that the breeder is great to deal with when everything is fine with your pup. It is when the going gets tough that you really find out what people are made of. Me posting this on the website will let me find out what I am made of. I had to remove the breeders name from my post.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Jason;

It's unfortunate that your pup had a problem.

Entropion isn't something that most breeders can diagnose. Heck, most VETS can't diagnose it (obviously, since the vet who did the health checks before shipping missed it).

I'm not saying you're right, the breeder's wrong, or you're wrong, the breeder's right. I'm saying, it happened, you did your best to make it right, and now just move on. You can't let this eat at you. 

You're not going to get justice on an internet board. "Industry standard" among Chessie breeders is thay do hips and CERF exams on the pups. Many do not offer a warranty of any kind. Those that do, ofteen will only guarantee hips and eyes up to 26 months.

If having a more thorough warranty is important to you, you may want to switch breeds. This one is PLAGUED with orthopedic problems, many of which require surgery. Hip remodels or replacements, TPLO, elbow surgeries. They are all expensive. Compared to these, entropion is pretty tame, which MAY be why SOME breeders don't get worked up over it. I may not agree with these attitudes, and have worked pretty hard over the decades to raise awareness of health isues in the breed. But they are part of the reality of this breed.

As Eleanor said, if this is outside your comfort zone, either find the breeder who has the kind of warranty you are after (and actually honors it, another issue!), and tests for everything you can think of, or...switch breeds.

Lisa


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Entropion isn't something that most breeders can diagnose. Heck, most VETS can't diagnose it (obviously, since the vet who did the health checks before shipping missed it).


I will back Lisa up on that. I bought a dog and at about 3 months her eyes looked "different". I asked the vet I was going to and she thought it was that she had lots of loose skin and was going to grow into a bigger head. She did not see entropion. At 5 months I was going to have some training put into her and she was squinting in the light and her lid finally started rolling in. I called the stud dog owner and he said don't spay her but have the lids tacked. He said he had thrown one other like that. I took her to a more experienced vet and he said she definately needed surgery. He also said he had fixed eyes on other dogs and he knew they had gone on to championships (breed). At the same time I had her spayed and sold her as a companion. The breeder paid for the eye part of the surgery which was only $122. The breeder was a friend so that was easier to solve. Although this is a late case of entropion, it shows how difficult it is to diagnose. It is also thought to be a polygenic inherited trait and most breedings may never show it so there is no reason to cull the parents, just don't repeat the breeding. Obviously the pup in question had a problem of mattering on arrival which was more obvious there was a problem to look into.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Just finished talking with the breeder of the sire of the entropion pup. She filled me in on who the dog is. I know this dog, and I know of no entropion anywhere in the pedigree, neither does he have it, nor his parents, nor any of his littermates. I don't know anything about the dam's side of the pedigree, but it's probabaly a similar story.

All this points out how complex the genetics is behind entropion. There's no such thing as an "entropion gene", nor is it a simple recessive. Entropion is caused by several characteristics happening at once, including skin thickness/quantity, head shape, eyerim shape, eye socket conformation...things controlled by literally dozens of genes. Get enough of these genes concentrated in an individual, a threshold is crossed, and entropion is the result

To bring this back to the original topic, how can we be sure EIC isn't inherited the same way? A collection of genes, any one of which, alone, codes for a normal, or even a desired trait, but when gathered together in an individual, crosses some threshold that causes EIC to manifest?

Short answer is: we can't.

Lisa


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> To bring this back to the original topic, how can we be sure EIC isn't inherited the same way? A collection of genes, any one of which, alone, codes for a normal, or even a desired trait, but when gathered together in an individual, crosses some threshold that causes EIC to manifest?
> 
> Short answer is: we can't.


Good point, Lisa. As usual.


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

*Jason's Dog*

Jason approached me at a show in Oklahoma City last July about his dog. I didn't see the dog so I can't comment on her appearance or condition, but he did describe the circumstances then as he has here. I'm sorry that the breeder still hasn't done the right thing. 

Whether or not entropion is inherited is something of a moot point, in my opinion--- he sold a dog with a serious health issue for a considerable chunk of change, and when approached by the buyer about the problem, offered $200, an insult. That the breeder suggested that a healthy puppy's eyes would become matted shut during a relatively short trip on an airplane is absurd, worthy of P.T. Barnum if only it were funny. Shortly after meeting Jason I relayed his tale of woe to some FT Chessie people, and they had a number of uncomplimentary things to add about the breeder in question. 

If you're buying from a breeder that you don't personally know, this kind of situation lends good reason to go and pick the puppy up. See the breeders' facilities and other dogs, and if you don't like what you see you can still walk away. I agree that you can't warranty against every possible health issue when selling a puppy, but if your Mama raised you right then you know how to do the Right Thing in these instances.


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## Latisha (Feb 2, 2004)

I don't have an interest with either party involved here, but one thing that sticks out to me is that this pup was supposedly picked up from the airport in bad condition and vet confirmed entropion 2 days later.

Do not most contracts have a 72 hour clause that allows for the buyer to have the pup health checked and if it doesn't meet the health check the pup can be returned at shipper's expense and a refund issued?

I thought this was standard. If the contract did have this clause and the buyer elects not to return the pup I can't see holding the breeder responsible at a later date for the assocated veterinary costs.

.02,
Latisha


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