# Is the Field Trial future doomed?



## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

Sitting around the clubhouse, the discussion of the future of field trials were an item of discussion. The general feeling is the game has about reached the enjd before its ultimate collapse. Some of the reasons cited were:

1. The average age of the participants is getting much older. Less and less new blood coming up.
2. The costs of training and trialing a dog is beyond the resources of the average working guy with a family. It is nearly impossible to be competitive with an amateur trained dog.
3. Big set ups with big whistles are putting pressure on the amount of real estate available. 
4. Entry fees are reaching a level that are acting as a deterrent.
5. A fading amount of camaraderie at FT's.
6. The number of dogs and the degree of difficulty is also pressuring time constraints.
7. It is getting difficult to recruit workers that can devote time for the duration of a weekend long trial.
What say you?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I have no idea if it's a doomed sport. I agree with most of the points you listed except the camaraderie part. One of the things I most like about field trials are the wonderful friendships I have developed over the years. I believe FTs will be fine with a new generation solving problems and moving on.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

How many of those items are also true of HT. I would say most of them (depending upon your personal or your club's experience.) At least, they are true to some degree or another... 

Is the cost (dollars and human energy) of putting on a HT or FT much greater than other dog events? (Think pointing dog and spaniel FT's. Think Rally-O or Fly-ball or Obedience or Dock diving.) Which of those dog games are growing, and why???

Let's do some analysis and then think about what we can do about making the retriever game more accessible.

BTW: Where/how do you think SRS could be helpful in this matter? Not that the average Joe wants to do SRS... but the production value of the televised events should stimulate some interest of retriever owners.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

As an aside... see the thread on Sanctioned FT's. I think the clubs that genuinely worry about the well-being of the sport should consider the possibility of reviving the Sanctioned Trial Circuit. 

Just sayin'.

And before you nay-say or poo-poo my suggestion, please offer a constructive idea of your own.

And one more thing: I got into the game via Sanctioned FT's. These typically are one-day things. If, during those days, I'd had a chance to also attend an associated "retriever-handling-for-dummies" seminar put on by an enthusiastic and knowledgeable member of the sponsoring club, I'd have happily made it a weekend.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

20 years ago they said Major League Baseball was dead, we tend to believe that we are not replaceable. While some of your points are valid "doomed" may be a bit too strong.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

How long til the competition starts to get easier?? 

I don't have much longer to wait!

JS


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

zeus3925 said:


> Sitting around the clubhouse, the discussion of the future of field trials were an item of discussion. The general feeling is the game has about reached the enjd before its ultimate collapse. Some of the reasons cited were:
> 
> 1. The average age of the participants is getting much older. Less and less new blood coming up.
> 2. The costs of training and trialing a dog is beyond the resources of the average working guy with a family. It is nearly impossible to be competitive with an amateur trained dog.
> ...


1. True

2. Pure myth, perpetuated and fuel by the fact that many amateurs dont have the patience to learn how to train a dog themselves,and its easier to pay someone to do it for them,and then complain that they cant beat the pros...when in fact THEY created the monster themselves by feeding it..The top Amateurs dont fear the Pros, they respect them...its the rest of the field that already goes in with the attitude that they cant beat the pros, the pros know that and frankly it makes their job easier..The top Amateurs love to run the Open because they want to compete against the best competition

3.partially True, but if you ever see/run a trial judged by some of the old timers such as WD Connor, et al...they dont resort to the huge tests, instead they rely on great bird placement, smart tests where dogs eliminate themselves, and not some gimmick set up that they saw at the last training session with their pro..

4. False...entry fees have not even come close to matching the escalating costs of the travel,vehicles,lodging,meals...I can enter a dog in a trial for less money than it cost me for a nice dinner at one of my favorite restaurants

5. False...its always been a sport with small cliques, usually divided by regions or socio/economic classes..the Sat. tailgate party may have disappeared at many venues,but many now choose to follow their pro and his clientele...all you have to look at is Pre National training groups...there are some lifelong friendships that have endured longer than marriages and are only ended when someone unfortunately departs the world

6. True/False- in a typical Open, how many entries are a legit threat to win the trial, it also goes back to who may be judging...now in an Amateur nearly the entire field is a threat to win the trial

7 ABSOLUTELY TRUE: this might be the achilles heel of the FT game, there are so many clubs across the country that are controlled by a one/two person entity and their ability to commandeer,cajole,coerce the help needed to pull off a trial..These dynasty's(some might use the term dictatorships) make the majority decisions on who will judge,what grounds are used,and when the events will happen...entire clubs/events have disappeared from the roster when those people are no longer around or their grounds are no longer available to the clubs or their "new " membership has shifted the club's focus from FT to HT


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

As long as there are competitive dog folks field trials will continue. It might not be the field trials of your Dad or your Grandfather, but, the show will go on. As a old timer I have watched 5 decades of trials and various evolutions. Better bred dogs, better training methods and money that many folks are ready to put in the "money hole" are still there. I have seen folks work part-time jobs, plus their real job, just to pay for the running of their dogs. I know personally, one fellow who took a second mortgage out on his house to campaign his AFC, now, long out of the game. There are folks who have used credit cards to pay for their professional trainer's fees and not out of making bill paying easier. There are folks who breed dogs just to pay for their hobby. Other folks train up young dogs and sell them just to play the game. It could even go full circle, where the rich folks hire help to put on a trial, as was done in the early days. Heck many folks already own the land and the water where trials are held. Some events are even floated around the country under various club names North to South, Midwest to the East coast, then South. West of the Mississippi I am not too familiar except for some clubs in Missouri, where one club some years back went from Wisconsin to the St Louis area. Field trials are far from becoming deceased. Now that doesn't even cover the other retriever venues.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

"6. The number of dogs and the degree of difficulty is also pressuring time constraints."

If the "number of dogs" presents a problem it would not seem the sport is in decline. 

As for the age thing, on the circuit we play, yes there are stalwarts who have played the game for decades. But there are also younger and very competitive individuals playing as well. I'd like to see actual numbers that validate the claim that the "average age of participants is getting much older."

Having said that, any organization needs to be cognizant of the need to recruit and develop new members and participants. I've been very fortunate to have an experienced mentor who has helped me and my dogs reach levels I never thought attainable. And others who have played the game much longer than I who have encouraged and supported our efforts. Those folks represent the key to future success of the sport and I'm indebted to them.


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

As for #2-- Carl/George, Lauren/Slider, Bill/Ammo, Lee/Jolie, Lanse/All of them, Bogusky/Sweet Charlie/Mickey, Jim/Willie, etc. etc. etc........... didn't get the memo. #3 Quality grounds in general are a precious resource. #4 If the entry fee is a big deciding factor in someones participation in the sport, they might need to rethink they're choice of hobbies immediately. #7 A limited number of people are doing a tremendous amount of work. Again, a precious resource. Just my two cents.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Perfect response Bon.
There are some folks that have their dogs pro trained and still make an effort to help new people into the game, but not nearly enough.
The other side of that coin:
There seems to be a much higher percentage of new people who quit the game after sending their first email, seeking help. You don't even get to see their dog, before they quit. There is a new guy out lately who seems to be a keener. Before him, the last dedicated trainer to come to our amateur group, and stick around for a while, was more than 7 years ago.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

My two cents. Zeus asks valid questions and I agree w/ BonMallari on all w/an addition. As an avid amateur his #2 response is a home run . I have been forced due to geographic relocation to have used a pro for winter training phases - the reason being the lack of water facilities (150 mile roundtrip)and work. I hated it and still do. My ego demands my input for competitive purposes.My hobbies require me to do as much of what I do by myself to obtain satisfaction , otherwise it has little or no value. Yes , others have a totally different approach , buy the dog, buy the pro, buy your just rewards. Different strokes for different folks.
My other reflection is that some have pro trained dogs that become successful under a pro but are asked to judge .In my estimation about half of these folks are capable of understanding judging/set-ups. They often use training set-ups instead of using the terrain. Total opinion.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

1tulip said:


> As an aside... see the thread on Sanctioned FT's. I think the clubs that genuinely worry about the well-being of the sport should consider the possibility of reviving the Sanctioned Trial Circuit.


The titles from and the participation in the Hunt test caused the decline of the sanctioned trials.

Don


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DSemple said:


> The titles from and the participation in the Hunt test caused the decline of the sanctioned trials.
> 
> Don


Add to that most of the clubs on my circuit have barely enough people to put on 2 field trials a year.


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## Gunssmoke3217 (Feb 12, 2013)

I am 27 years old and I sure hope that it isnt doomed. I belong to a retriever club and there are only a handful of members under the age of 30.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Doomed? No Need to evolve? Yes

Retriever FTs have always been a game dominated by "older" people with time and money. The fulltime worker with a family/children/career obligations has never been a large group at FTs. Over the years some of the 20yo's have appeared for a short time, disappeared and then re-appear when the kids are gone. 
Field trialing has always been expensive. 50 years ago an all-age entry was $30 when gas was 40 cents and minimum wage $1.85. It's all relative.
Grounds and workers is IMHO is where FT must and will evolve. The 4 stake trial will be rare, grounds will dictate this. Gun and game laws in certain areas will force some changes. More workers will be paid and we may see the creation, or re-creation, of a service that puts on a trial just like we have EE now.
Dogs will continue to get better and people will still want to prove that their dog is the best.
There will still be a place for them to prove it!

Tim


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## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

Don't feel bad- horse shows have been having the same problems and asking the same questions.

Young families generally don't have the time and money for hobbies that can get expensive,that you must travel to and spend free time training the animal. Its an age old problem an there are not easy answers except keep plugging away- make the FT fun for all ages,give eveyone at every level a place and chance to compete and encourage new people by making them welcome. Good luck


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

It takes a special dog and a total commitment in training to make a successful all age dog. An amateur can do it without Pro help, but the time commitment is daunting. Along with that you need high quality, dedicated amateur partners who are equally committed along with good grounds. I'm lucky to live in a semi-rural area that has some really good grounds, good training partners come and go, and being self employed with no kids, my time is flexible. For a younger person with a less flexible job and kids to support in after school activities, I would think it is practically impossible to train, let alone commit to all the travel and entry fee cost.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

We worked our first trial in 1995. At that trial, Strandberg and Smith were having a somewhat heated debate about where the sport was headed. One comment was that there were only gray-haired people playing the game. Same argument, 20 years later and the game goes on.Sanctioned trials--clubs we belong to used to host sanctioned trials in the winter. $10 a dog to enter. Weather sometimes really cold and snow deep, and those non members who came to run rarely threw a bird. Clubs weren't as exhausted from hosting two large field trials and 2 large hunting tests each year. Sanctioned events gave way so clubs could put on more Member and Licensed events, and have money to pay property taxes, buy more land, develop land, buy and maintain equipment to care for land.I would like to see the National clubs use the money collected from entry fees to purchase property near active clubs so that clubs had better grounds and the sport would have property that would always be available. I would also like to see the folks who have 30+ dogs with pros all over the country, add to the money used for land acquisition . These folks never judge or marshal or throw a bird or chair an event. Without the good people who volunteer their weekends to put on trials and Nationals, there would not be any sport for all of us to enjoy.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

We worked our first trial in 1995. At that trial, Strandberg and Smith were having a somewhat heated debate about where the sport was headed. One comment was that there were only gray-haired people playing the game. Same argument, 20 years later and the game goes on.Sanctioned trials--clubs we belong to used to host sanctioned trials in the winter. $10 a dog to enter. Weather sometimes really cold and snow deep, and those non members who came to run rarely threw a bird. Clubs weren't as exhausted from hosting two large field trials and 2 large hunting tests each year. Sanctioned events gave way so clubs could put on more Member and Licensed events, and have money to pay property taxes, buy more land, develop land, buy and maintain equipment to care for land.I would like to see the National clubs use the money collected from entry fees to purchase property near active clubs so that clubs had better grounds and the sport would have property that would always be available. I would also like to see the folks who have 30+ dogs with pros all over the country, add to the money used for land acquisition . These folks never judge or marshal or throw a bird or chair an event. Without the good people who volunteer their weekends to put on trials and Nationals, there would not be any sport for all of us to enjoy.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

DSemple said:


> The titles from and the participation in the Hunt test caused the decline of the sanctioned trials.
> 
> Don


I would argue, based on accounts from long time trailers , that the demise has more to do with the HUGE increase in licensed trials than anything HT related. Not a lot of open weekends to run for fun.


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## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

Thank you all for your responses thus far. I am reporting on the elements of the discussion and I should have added the disclaimer the views expressed are not necessarily the views of this poster.

But I would like to bring up Tim's point in #16. The sport has been evolving, but is it to the point of the "ultimate absurdity? 400+ yard marks thrown by dudes in white coats. Ducks with white streamers thrown out on what is essentially a golf course. Is it really a test of a good hunting dog or a depth of someone's wallet?

If the sport is to survive, what direction should it take?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

zeus3925 said:


> 1. The average age of the participants is getting much older. Less and less new blood coming up.



Older, yes. Much older? Not so sure. To be competitive in the sport, you require time and/or money. You can make up for one with an abundance of the other. But, success typically requires a combination of both. That is tough when you are younger with a family to support. 



> 2. The costs of training and trialing a dog is beyond the resources of the average working guy with a family. It is nearly impossible to be competitive with an amateur trained dog.



Difficult, yes. Nearly impossible, no.



> 3. Big set ups with big whistles are putting pressure on the amount of real estate available.


See discussion below



> 4. Entry fees are reaching a level that are acting as a deterrent.


Disagree. Entry fees are the least of my worries. Gas, hotel, much more expensive



> 5. A fading amount of camaraderie at FT's.



Disagree. I have made friends throughout the country in the sport.



> 6. The number of dogs and the degree of difficulty is also pressuring time constraints.


See discussion below



> 7. It is getting difficult to recruit workers that can devote time for the duration of a weekend long trial.


I think everyone who has a dog in FT competition needs to take a look in the mirror. 

Are you helping put on FT competitions? 
Are you judging your fair share? 
It is the nature of any human endeavor that there are givers and there are takers. Make a choice to be one of the former and not one of the latter.

Lost in all of this discussion - and focused on the degree of difficulty - are the following:
- The dogs (and handlers) have gotten much, much better over the years. I am amazed at the things that 2 year old dogs can do, let alone 7 year old dogs. It is a testament to better dogs, better trainers, and better handlers. The winning dog in a tough All Age stake must not only be a good marker and a good blind runner, but a good problem solver. The dogs at the top are very good at staying out of trouble. 
- Anytime you engage in competition at the highest levels, the degree of difficulty will be extreme. Think of what it takes to win a Super Bowl, the Pulitzer Prize, or even the The Voice. In our little corner of the world, All Age Stakes and the Nationals are the equivalent. 

I do think that the sport could implement some sort of salary cap (see the NFL) to allow the Green Bays of the World to compete with New York Cities of the World, but doubt that will ever happen. That's a discussion for another time. 

But, the point that I want to make is that 

*We** need to take a step back and marvel at the things our dogs can now do*. 

I remember Bill Tarrant was raging against the "mechanical dog." Those dogs are few and far between now. We now have dogs that will run with power 100 yards on land with water on their shoulder, then sliver into water, and swim another 100 yards with dirt just six feet from their shoulder, get on a skinny point, cast into a howling wind, and swim another 100 yards to a bird. How great is that?

That kind of extreme performance is the result of competition - and people pushing themselves and the dogs to greater heights of performance. I think that is pretty cool and that is why I continue to plug away in this sport.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

zeus3925 said:


> Thank you all for your responses thus far. I am reporting on the elements of the discussion and I should have added the disclaimer the views expressed are not necessarily the views of this poster.
> 
> But I would like to bring up Tim's point in #16. The sport has been evolving, but is it to the point of the "ultimate absurdity? 400+ yard marks thrown by dudes in white coats. Ducks with white streamers thrown out on what is essentially a golf course. *Is it really a test of a good hunting dog or a depth of someone's wallet?*
> If the sport is to survive, what direction should it take?


First off, I think the sport will survive just fine. 

As to your question about hunting dogs, that's why we have hunt test, despite old language in the book regarding "_an ordinary day's shoot_"we are way past the day when a field trial resembled anything close to actual hunting. That said, the skills a good field trial dog learn in order to succeed make for an excellent hunting dog. 400 yard marks are not uncommon, but are at the far end of what you typically see at a weekend trial. As marks got longer and longer over 50 years ago, white coats became necessary and are used to this day. White streamers on a duck can help with a dark bird thrown against a dark background, though I've never done it myself. The golf course comment would be a particularly bad grounds, but I guess it's possible a club might be limited in that regard.

I have seen a few absurd test here and there, way over 500 yards for example, but overall, test seem challenging but fair week to week. It seems to me that field trials in my part of the country are as healthy as ever. Though I am getting older, I like to think I have quite a few years left in me and maybe another generation of dogs to train.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

zeus3925 said:


> Thank you all for your responses thus far. I am reporting on the elements of the discussion and I should have added the disclaimer the views expressed are not necessarily the views of this poster.
> 
> But I would like to bring up Tim's point in #16. The sport has been evolving, but is it to the point of the "ultimate absurdity? 400+ yard marks thrown by dudes in white coats. Ducks with white streamers thrown out on what is essentially a golf course. Is it really a test of a good hunting dog or a depth of someone's wallet?
> 
> If the sport is to survive, what direction should it take?


While it is amazing to see dogs be able to perform that far out, it is unrealistic distances in a true hunting setting. Maybe the sport needs a lot shorter distance, but obviously you guys are judging dogs against the best of the best and distance becomes a factor... maybe a better judging system that rewards dogs all around type that reflects what a breed standard describes. Performance is only one aspect that judges whether you have a great companion dog, vs a one that is so specialized.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

.44 magnum said:


> . Performance is only one aspect that judges whether you have a great companion dog, vs a one that is so specialized.


Field trials are not intended to find the best mini van. They are intended to find the best Ferrari.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Older, yes. Much older? Not so sure. To be competitive in the sport, you require time and/or money. You can make up for one with an abundance of the other. But, success typically requires a combination of both. That is tough when you are younger with a family to support.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome post. Totally agree
So amazing, how good the dogs are these days.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Ted Shih said:


> Field trials are not intended to find the best mini van. They are intended to find the best Ferrari.


Then the sport is basically doomed. Not everyone can afford a Ferrari..


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

.44 magnum said:


> Then the sport is basically doomed. Not everyone can afford a Ferrari..


The sport will continue as long as there are people willing and able to play. The sport has never been for "everyone".


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Everyone makes sacrifices for the things they love. My life observation is that most men (not sure about women) often detest their work and pour their passion into their "hobby." The hobby is their life when all else has less meaning. Every man who has tested himself alone and finds his own measure finds joy in the willing bond between the dog and himself . IMHO


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

.44 magnum said:


> Then the sport is basically doomed. Not everyone can afford a Ferrari..


And not everybody has the skill set to drive one....

But those who do will always find a place to rally.

My guess is field trialers will too.


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## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

While I admire what I have seen ( and thats not much) of FT doing 200yd retrieves plus all the whistle directional work-I have no interest in doing it. I just want a good solid hunting dog that will go after the birds and still be under control. As long as there as those who want to compete and are willing to do what it takes from a time and financial point then FT will continue as a sport.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

.44 magnum said:


> Maybe the sport needs a lot shorter distance, but obviously you guys are judging dogs against the best of the best and distance becomes a factor... .


Give me distance any day of the week, I hate it when judges are forced to put 3 or 4 birds into a shoe box, or resort to tricks to try and get answers. 


Don


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## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

Another comment made is the that the best an amateur trainer and handler can hope for is a qualified all age dog.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

zeus3925 said:


> Another comment made is the that the best an amateur trainer and handler can hope for is a qualified all age dog.


There are far too many examples to disprove that


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

DSemple said:


> Give me distance any day of the week, I hate it when judges are forced to put 3 or 4 birds into a shoe box, or resort to tricks to try and get answers.
> 
> 
> Don


Yet if you are now having a dog need to do a 440 yard retrieve, will it then be a mile out eventually? I got no problem with anyone attempting that, and it would be awesome to see, but you are going to start needing drones with cameras for the judges to do evaluations.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

To each their own, but in my opinion the coming of hunt tests took a lot of the "workers" away from field trials. I understand it, and why they left. 

Field trials are great but sure aren't for everyone.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

zeus3925 said:


> Another comment made is the that the best an amateur trainer and handler can hope for is a qualified all age dog.


That's a bunch of BS, I personally know quite a few amateurs with FC-AFC dogs that regularly qualify for one or both Nationals. It seems that every so often we get a thread on how no dog is totally amateur trained, but for the sake of argument, to me the amateur who occasionally runs his or her dogs on a pro set up in day training, is still amateur trained. That said I also know a few very successful amateurs who can count on one hand the number of times they trained with a pro.

As for distance, I think the limiting factor is the dog's ability to see a bird in the air, much over 400 yards and I suspect dogs are just lining out to where they remember a white coated guy standing. I run a lot of trials and find that most long marks are in the 300-325 yard range which is about the punch bird distance that was normal when I started 20 years ago.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

.44 magnum said:


> While it is amazing to see dogs be able to perform that far out, it is unrealistic distances in a true hunting setting. Maybe the sport needs a lot shorter distance, but obviously you guys are judging dogs against the best of the best and distance becomes a factor... maybe a better judging system that rewards dogs all around type that reflects what a breed standard describes. Performance is only one aspect that judges whether you have a great companion dog, vs a one that is so specialized.


You guys are doing a good job of articulating the arguments Richard Wolters put forth 30 years ago when he helped create the NAHRA hunt test program for the regular hunter and his well trained dog. That "split" allowed field trials to continue down the path they were following, while at the same time give Joe Blow a fun program to participate in with his hunting dog. Now 30+ years later both programs are flourishing as far as I can tell, despite the doom and gloomer's pointing to the advancing age of many field trailer handlers. Of the posters on this thread critical of the way field trials are going, I don't know how many are actual field trailers. For those of us who do run field trials, we respect hunt testers and their various programs, but prefer the high level competition a field trial provides. Like someone else said, to each their own.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> That's a bunch of BS, I personally know quite a few amateurs with FC-AFC dogs that regularly qualify for one or both Nationals. It seems that every so often we get a thread on how no dog is totally amateur trained, but for the sake of argument, to me the amateur who occasionally runs his or her dogs on a pro set up in day training, is still amateur trained. That said I also know a few very successful amateurs who can count on one hand the number of times they trained with a pro.
> 
> As for distance, I think the limiting factor is the dog's ability to see a bird in the air, much over 400 yards and I suspect dogs are just lining out to where they remember a white coated guy standing. I run a lot of trials and find that most long marks are in the 300-325 yard range which is about the punch bird distance that was normal when I started 20 years ago.


I agree, folks that make those comments don't get around much. You are correct the punch birds of 20 years ago were the distance of 300 to 350 yards. We hunted today with two field trial dogs and shot eight geese several were cripples that the dogs had to chase down. In between the dogs sat quietly in the blinds scanning the skys. Of course field trial dogs are too high strung to be much good for hunting, everyone knows that about retrievers. The same with our training groups, some folks that still work at a real job, between us have made about a dozen FC/and /orAFC's and as many "almost" FC or AFC dogs, plus National Derby list dogs, MH trial dogs all of them QAA , plus a couple of HRCH that are QAA plus all-age pointed and so forth ......It's all about how bad do you want it? If your goals are lofty you have to eat, sleep and breath field trials..If not you have to settle for lesser nuggets and that isn't all bad either ! One in my old group had a double header winner, 92 all-age points, and a real job. Took his dog to work and even trained on his lunch hour and it wasn't 30 or 40 years ago. It is harder today with the numbers, but, it can be done with a "good dog" ! As Mary Candlewood LOL told me once it is hard to screw up a good dog!


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

The Friday start of trials is also a draw back for working folks.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Brokengunz said:


> The Friday start of trials is also a draw back for working folks.


Field trials have had Friday starts well before my introduction to them in the early 70s


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Brokengunz said:


> The Friday start of trials is also a draw back for working folks.


The reality is that field trials themselves are a draw back for working folks. Between the Friday starts of the Qual and Open, plus for many trials, a travel day prior, you have to dip into vacation days just to run your own dog. That's one big reason a lot of working people use a pro until they are retired. That said, my buddy Jim and I would forgo the Open and Qual, drive half the night after work on Friday to run a derby or Amateur on Saturday morning. Then hopefully be around to the end of Sunday to drive home to get a little sleep before work Monday morning.


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## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

John Lash said:


> To each their own, but in my opinion the coming of hunt tests took a lot of the "workers" away from field trials. I understand it, and why they left.
> 
> Field trials are great but sure aren't for everyone.


Actually in our neck of the woods FT crews are made up largely of hunt testers but there is not much in the way of reciprocity. Some FT have their snooters up inthe air about the hunt test game but I think for the most part it is the scheduling of the FT's that are responsible for that. 

I don't think HT should be run down either. As a handler they were invaluable in learning to handle a dog, and I have now moved on to FTs.. Hunt tests gave me an awesome hunting dog. I see HT as sort of a "farm club" for future field trialers and a home for those who just want to run their dogs in a non competitive venue


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

One of my jobs required 7 consecutive workdays to get two week-end days off. To get three week-end days off (F-Sa-Sun) I had to work 10 consecutive days. I did this for 5 + years to run the trials. Sacrifice not a hero. I know field trialers did/do that. This is where you also have a buddy run your dog. I got a better job which allowed weekends off and vacations days off to run trials. How bad do you want it? There are race-car drivers-observers/golfers/fishermen/street-rod guys/ pick your poison .....who do it as well. One of my bosses asked me once - "so what do you get out of this?". He happened to be a competitive national ranked handgun shooter and I responded in kind- nothing/cheap ribbons/better quality trophy and the satisfaction of doing something well.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

I am a 30 something guy that plays both games. I have a MNH that can run FT and have one 2 Quals and now consistently do pretty well in Amateurs though I have never finished. For me, excluding the pro training, HT are every bit as expensive as FT. In fact since most times the FT is just one day for me it is a bit cheaper. Throw in Master National and it is every bit as expensive. However, to be honest, a AFC is out of capabilities of most amateurs. This isn't a function of capabilities it is a function of resources. To be a AFC you need to train the dog at least 4-5 times a week almost year round with most of that being on FT grounds with big technical water with bird boys. If you know you cannot achieve that goal then it really make it hard to get into it. 

So you either need to own the resources yourself or use a pro. This is more money then most amateurs have. The other thing is that even if you get well breed dogs at best only 1 out of every 3 dogs is capable of this. So if you are a amateurs that has one to 3 dogs at a time that makes it more difficult. I currently have a once in a lifetime dog and her could have been a AFC if I would have focused on that the whole time. Now my goal is some JAMs. I am super happy with that becasue my dog is also a HRCH, MNH, and QAA. Those were my real goals. But the likelihood is after my current dog retires I will be back to HT and it will be years before I run another trial. With that said I have had a great experience. Everyone has been super nice to me at every trial and super supportive. Yes they are competitive but they honestly want to see great dog work and really root for each other. 

I don't think there is anything you can do to "Fix" it. It will stay a small, mostly older, mostly wealthy group with a small percentage of people like me in there coming and going. With the new QA2 title it will give middle of the road people a goal and I think that is a good thing. Other then that the Master Nationals and Grands will remain the bulk of the middle guys goals.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i don't think any of us ever consider that we likely don't need as many workers today as were needed in the past. when i marshal at a trial all we gotta do is throw three bird boys, three sacks of birds, two flyer shooters, four crates of ducks, five holding blinds, guns and stands on a side-by-side, 4x4, "ranger", "gator" or "mule". then we drive at ass-rippin' speed out to where we are told to go and unload and start throwin'.

no totin', sloggin', draggin', etc. imagine how long it must have taken riding a *real mule*.;-)(no one here will remember that)


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Rnd said:


> And not everybody has the skill set to drive one....
> 
> But those who do will always find a place to rally.
> 
> My guess is field trialers will too.


Great perspective.

As an aside, I could own a Ferrari if I didn't run FTs, but I have no interest in one. I like dogs much more than cars.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

If you want it badly enough, you might just get it. At the very least, you can enjoy the journey.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

zeus3925 said:


> I don't think HT should be run down either. As a handler they were invaluable in learning to handle a dog, and I have now moved on to FTs.. Hunt tests gave me an awesome hunting dog. I see HT as sort of a "farm club" for future field trialers and a home for those who just want to run their dogs in a non competitive venue



Nothing that I have read here puts down Hunting Tests.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

If you want more people to run & help; you need to put something into it for them. The Qual and Derby would be the stakes to do it in. In hunt tests you progress up and earn titles with a simple set of goals JH>SH>MH>MNH. The more times your out -the more tests you run; the more the hook is set, but there's a defined sequence of attainable goals with no time limit. In FT's there's no progression to set the hook for newbies. In derby you can make the derby list; if you get enough points (it's a goal for 2 yrs. but the time limit kills this stake for newbie). After 2 you've got the Qual (handling dog), this has a title QA2; however it's almost an instant gratification title; only way to get it is 1st & 2nd (2 times), in a stake dominated by Pros. I question how many times someone is gonna put in for just a 1st or 2nd (if you get it initially; your done & there's no draw towards the Amateur) (if your beat out over and over-or fork up $85 to never see a 2nd series, hmm there are several other options that guarantee you more for your investment). 3rd, 4th, RJ means a colored ribbon; but no points towards anything (no progression), a Jam means you've passed the HT. A newbies gonna be thinking, heck if I JAM A HT at a HT; I can earn a title then qualify for the National (where I can earn another title). The other option is jump right into Amateur or Open, at least these stakes placements mean points, Jams go toward that QA2 title. However without the hook being set from earlier stakes; these stakes seem very BIG & UNTOUCHABLE; it takes a particular type of person to jump right into the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim. So keep QAA how it's always been, but make the official Qual title; just like the AFC-FC (placements count as points towards the title, but you still need a 1 or 2); Now the title can be earned, by playing the game more; your progressing. People now have reason to keep coming out to FTs, keep putting on events and keep throwing birds. Play in the qual enough to earn a few points (even if you don't get a 1 or 2nd for a title), hmmm amateur and open, just might not be that big of leap .

Of course this is all relying on the premise that FTs want more people running their events. Most of the decision makers seem to like it how it is. How it is has worked since the beginning, no reason to think it'll fall off the tracks now. There will always be the type that needs the competition, who like Big ups and downs, who no matter the odds will still chase AFC & FC as well as NFC/NAFC. They'll continue to run the events. If they need more workers they'll hire them, if they need more events they'll hire those out as well. The entry fees will go up; but the game will go on.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

roseberry said:


> i don't think any of us ever consider that we likely don't need as many workers today as were needed in the past. when i marshal at a trial all we gotta do is throw three bird boys, three sacks of birds, two flyer shooters, four crates of ducks, five holding blinds, guns and stands on a side-by-side, 4x4, "ranger", "gator" or "mule". then we drive at ass-rippin' speed out to where we are told to go and unload and start throwin'.
> 
> no totin', sloggin', draggin', etc. imagine how long it must have taken riding a *real mule*.;-)(no one here will remember that)


You forgot to mention stealing the judges snickers bar so ya don't kill over!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Scott Adams said:


> If you want it badly enough, you might just get it. At the very least, you can enjoy the journey.


 Here is the key thing enjoy the journey Have fun. Had a great time at The Labrador FT in Onaway. Loads of fun. Dog did okay (3rd series). And maybe he not a Nat dog. But that is not all one should be striving for. Costly, yes but I put it in my budget. Met plenty of people. Train by myself lots. I have goals. Every day I work the dogs on those and some challenges. I belong to a club and would help out any way I can. I would offer to help anyone at any trial if able. Like most of you. Yes, I am in the senior category. I love my dogs. This is a really great hobby. Bottom line you have to work hard at achieving a FT dog to an Open level. No if ands or buts....IMHO It is all what you make it. I am learning all the time.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Here is the key thing enjoy the journey Have fun. Had a great time at The Labrador FT in Onaway. Loads of fun. Dog did okay (3rd series). And maybe he not a Nat dog. But that is not all one should be striving for. Costly, yes but I put it in my budget. Met plenty of people. Train by myself lots. I have goals. Every day I work the dogs on those and some challenges. I belong to a club and would help out any way I can. I would offer to help anyone at any trial if able. Like most of you. Yes, I am in the senior category. I love my dogs. This is a really great hobby. Bottom line you have to work hard at achieving a FT dog to an Open level. No if ands or buts....IMHO It is all what you make it. I am learning all the time.


My training partner judged the Open and our little swamp collie got a third in the derby run by Connie Dresser..Chris said he had a great time, good folks and terrific grounds ..I was suppose to do the Open but couldn't get anyone to stay with my wife, she has some serious health issues. There is nothing wrong with doing the weekend trial and trying to do what you can. The National is a hard goal just to qualify with seven points with a win every year even with FC and/or AFC's. One of the folks I have trained with, a amateur trained and handled dog, just qualified with a win, dog is not titled yet but close. You just pound away the best you can and have fun. I always said when I don't have fun anymore, time to quit the dogs. The harder you work in field trials the luckier you will get!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> My training partner judged the Open and our little swamp collie got a third in the derby run by Connie Dresser..Chris said he had a great time, good folks and terrific grounds ..I was suppose to do the Open but couldn't get anyone to stay with my wife, she has some serious health issues. There is nothing wrong with doing the weekend trial and trying to do what you can. The National is a hard goal just to qualify with seven points with a win every year even with FC and/or AFC's. One of the folks I have trained with, a amateur trained and handled dog, just qualified with a win, dog is not titled yet but close. You just pound away the best you can and have fun. I always said when I don't have fun anymore, time to quit the dogs. The harder you work in field trials the luckier you will get!


For some of us who stick with the dog we have through thick and thin, it is a brutal sport. I cant tell you how many times we were within an inch of winning only to have a weird thing lead to a 4th or JAM. I've been in this sport 20 years, my first dog (see avatar) had a QAA ceiling, I retired Yoda with an Open win but not enough points to title. He had injured his back leading to spinal surgery and shortened career. Gus is my best dog by a long shot, we finished eleven trials this year with eight JAMS, a 2nd and two 4ths, didn't even qualify for a National. It's hard to keep running at that brick wall, but so fun when it all lines up.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> If you want more people to run & help; you need to put something into it for them. .



I disagree. I think if the bug gets you, the bug gets you. No one can talk you in. No one can talk you out.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Nate_C said:


> I am a 30 something guy that plays both games. I have a MNH that can run FT and have one 2 Quals and now consistently do pretty well in Amateurs though I have never finished. For me, excluding the pro training, HT are every bit as expensive as FT. In fact since most times the FT is just one day for me it is a bit cheaper. Throw in Master National and it is every bit as expensive. However, to be honest, a AFC is out of capabilities of most amateurs. This isn't a function of capabilities it is a function of resources. To be a AFC you need to train the dog at least 4-5 times a week almost year round with most of that being on FT grounds with big technical water with bird boys. If you know you cannot achieve that goal then it really make it hard to get into it.
> 
> So you either need to own the resources yourself or use a pro. This is more money then most amateurs have. The other thing is that even if you get well breed dogs at best only 1 out of every 3 dogs is capable of this. So if you are a amateurs that has one to 3 dogs at a time that makes it more difficult. I currently have a once in a lifetime dog and her could have been a AFC if I would have focused on that the whole time. Now my goal is some JAMs. I am super happy with that becasue my dog is also a HRCH, MNH, and QAA. Those were my real goals. But the likelihood is after my current dog retires I will be back to HT and it will be years before I run another trial. With that said I have had a great experience. Everyone has been super nice to me at every trial and super supportive. Yes they are competitive but they honestly want to see great dog work and really root for each other.
> 
> I don't think there is anything you can do to "Fix" it. It will stay a small, mostly older, mostly wealthy group with a small percentage of people like me in there coming and going. With the new QA2 title it will give middle of the road people a goal and I think that is a good thing. Other then that the Master Nationals and Grands will remain the bulk of the middle guys goals.


Kinda agree most folks last about 3 to 5 years, the younger ones, then move on because of a variety of reasons. Don't think it is so much a J.P. Morgan, not enough money, but rather a tough road and a good dog.
Some are reluctant to get rid of dogs and start collecting them, bad , bad thing or get in a rose collared glass about their dogs. There are a number of dogs that are made with many starts, professional training and are FC's and/or AFC's. For a amateur to compete as a trainer, he/she must have a very good to great dog in this day and age. Like I stated in a previous post it is hard to screw up a good dog. You seem to have a great attitude, have fun, do what you can and set realistic goals maybe just maybe, that great one will come along. I waited for nearly 20 years for one and then it rained cats and dogs , so to speak. Now my bucket just comes up with sand in the past 6 or 7 years...hope it is just a cycle.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> For some of us who stick with the dog we have through thick and thin, it is a brutal sport. I cant tell you how many times we were within an inch of winning only to have a weird thing lead to a 4th or JAM. I've been in this sport 20 years, my first dog (see avatar) had a QAA ceiling, I retired Yoda with an Open win but not enough points to title. He had injured his back leading to spinal surgery and shortened career. Gus is my best dog by a long shot, we finished eleven trials this year with eight JAMS, a 2nd and two 4ths, didn't even qualify for a National. It's hard to keep running at that brick wall, but so fun when it all lines up.


Nothing wrong with that record! My training partner is going through the same thing with his 9 1/2 year old..I retired two in past years, one with 18 points and no win and one with 13 points and a win both ran until almost 10 . The 13 point one was a MH too. Many don't realize how difficult it is, be winning the trial and get a handle in the last series up against a host of pro trained dogs! Finishing 11 all-age trials is a great accomplishment and you should be very happy with the results, especially as a amateur trained dog.


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

I played the game as an amateur, went through lots of dogs, and had a lot of fun, but got burned out. Because I was fortunate enough (and unfortunate at the same time lol) to have found a very successful group of amateurs to train with, I learned everything at the level of expecting an FC AFC, and not to just play the game that suited Fluffy best. I was one of those 'worker bee' club members, and for many years, my ex and I were the only two club members to work all of the events (FTs and HTs). I did not run HTs (maybe once or twice because I was there), but supported them as a club member by working. The controversy in my club was one of the reasons I quit playing the game. No appreciation for donating your time; just a raft of grief and rudeness. I get enough of that at work as a teacher. I don't need more of it when I am trying to have fun! It's hard to keep workers when you treat them like crap.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

I wonder what the effect would be if qualifying for Nationals was less stringent.

Say a win plus 2 points in any one year would qualify you for 2 years instead of one year. 


Don


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> I waited for nearly 20 years for one and then it rained cats and dogs , so to speak. Now my bucket just comes up with sand in the past 6 or 7 years...hope it is just a cycle.


As you stated you have to be lucky and you have to get rid of the ones that do not measure up even if you like them as dogs. My current pride and enjoy arrived at at turning point for me when I wasn't sure it was worth the continued effort but he has rewarded me handsomely and with 3-4 more years ahead I have already begun the search for his replacement. I am under no delusion that the replacement will have his ability because those kind are few and far between but the window is closing for guys like us who could ill afford a 20 year drought. Good luck on your search!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DSemple said:


> I wonder what the effect would be if qualifying for Nationals was less stringent.
> 
> Say a win plus 2 points in any one year would qualify you for 2 years instead of one year.
> 
> ...


The Amateur National is already at almost unworkable numbers and the National Open with fewer hours of daylight is not far behind. I suspect that the ultimate solution will be to make it harder not easier to qualify.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Brokengunz said:


> The Friday start of trials is also a draw back for working folks.


When Clint was a graduate teaching assistant at TAMU he couldn't get out of his Friday class to run the Open so he would send my oldest brother Ely to start the trial for him, well one weekend Ely is thinking "I got this" and ended up getting third in the Open with Judge.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

zeus3925 said:


> 1. The average age of the participants is getting much older. Less and less new blood coming up.
> 2. The costs of training and trialing a dog is beyond the resources of the average working guy with a family. It is nearly impossible to be competitive with an amateur trained dog.
> 3. Big set ups with big whistles are putting pressure on the amount of real estate available.
> 4. Entry fees are reaching a level that are acting as a deterrent.
> ...


8. AR activists


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree. I think if the bug gets you, the bug gets you. No one can talk you in. No one can talk you out.


I agree with this 100%


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> No one can talk you out.


Ted, 
Do much divorce law?

Tim


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Criquetpas said:


> My training partner judged the Open and our little swamp collie got a third in the derby run by Connie Dresser..Chris said he had a great time, good folks and terrific grounds ..I was suppose to do the Open but couldn't get anyone to stay with my wife, she has some serious health issues. There is nothing wrong with doing the weekend trial and trying to do what you can. The National is a hard goal just to qualify with seven points with a win every year even with FC and/or AFC's. One of the folks I have trained with, a amateur trained and handled dog, just qualified with a win, dog is not titled yet but close. You just pound away the best you can and have fun. I always said when I don't have fun anymore, time to quit the dogs. The harder you work in field trials the luckier you will get!


Agree. An amateur that I train with Connie S. is very knowledgeable in FT and has done extremely well this year. I really appreciate all the info I have gleamed from her in training sessions. Hard work really pays off!!IMO


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Criquetpas said:


> Kinda agree most folks last about 3 to 5 years, the younger ones, then move on because of a variety of reasons. Don't think it is so much a J.P. Morgan, not enough money, but rather a tough road and a good dog.
> Some are reluctant to get rid of dogs and start collecting them, bad , bad thing or get in a rose collared glass about their dogs. There are a number of dogs that are made with many starts, professional training and are FC's and/or AFC's. For a amateur to compete as a trainer, he/she must have a very good to great dog in this day and age. Like I stated in a previous post it is hard to screw up a good dog. You seem to have a great attitude, have fun, do what you can and set realistic goals maybe just maybe, that great one will come along. I waited for nearly 20 years for one and then it rained cats and dogs , so to speak. Now my bucket just comes up with sand in the past 6 or 7 years...hope it is just a cycle.


There are a lot who title one dog - & have no other dogs on their stat sheet - 
while you may see 1 or 2 judge after that, they generally disappear - for 
reasons unknown -


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree. I think if the bug gets you, the bug gets you. No one can talk you in. No one can talk you out.


True. But being fortunate enough to have an experienced mentor who has shared not only training advice but trial management advice, as well a great knowledge of the history of the sport has "set the hook" for me. Clubs or informal groups that go just a bit out of the way to encourage new blood will get rewarded in turn.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> True. But being fortunate enough to have an experienced mentor who has shared not only training advice but trial management advice, as well a great knowledge of the history of the sport has "set the hook" for me. Clubs or informal groups that go just a bit out of the way to encourage new blood will get rewarded in turn.



I believe that students find teachers, and that teachers find students. There is new blood and there is new blood that continues on to be old blood. The latter tend to be highly self motivated and find their own mentors. The people that need external motivators don't last long. If you don't have the fire inside of you to get better, someone cannot put it inside of you.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

The problem lies in a society where everything is pretty much instantly available... information... food... everything... 

Training a trial dog takes more blood, sweat and tears than most people have an interest in investing. That's why there are so many pro trained dogs. 

The more kids you see playing with Momma's IPAD in the stroller, the worse things are going to get for people who actually want to unbolt themselves from technology and actually experience something in person.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I believe that students find teachers, and that teachers find students. There is new blood and there is new blood that continues on to be old blood. The latter tend to be highly self motivated and find their own mentors. The people that need external motivators don't last long.  *If you don't have the fire inside of you to get better, someone cannot put it inside of you. *








Just like a dog. It takes a lot the same in a person to be successful in FT.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I believe that students find teachers, and that teachers find students. There is new blood and there is new blood that continues on to be old blood. The latter tend to be highly self motivated and find their own mentors. The people that need external motivators don't last long. If you don't have the fire inside of you to get better, someone cannot put it inside of you.


So true, so true! In my case had a mentor I trained with for nearly 20 years. I learned much about conventional training from him along with various punishment techniques. Wanted to learn the "new" classical e-collar training going on. Sought out a e-collar training group who had their dogs professionally trained they took me into the group. When something went wrong in a training session the folks would call their pro and he would give advice, it worked. Sent my dog off for a basics course with a recently turned pro on a winter trip. My old mentor was so upset he quit training with me. Would drive by the group I was training with and do his own thing. Sought more advice, got lucky and took another pup on. Got involved with another Pro for advanced work and so forth always searching. The advanced pro paid me a great compliment, asked me who had done the basics on the second dog. I raised my hand and said I did. He said it was the best basic dog he had ever got where he didn't have to redo the basics. Stuck with the basic program to this day. Those who were generous to help me along the way with good sound advice, training techniques, handler techniques, I have never thanked , but, will now, Lesley Karnes (taught me the young dog basics)
Mickey Strandberg (taught me handling techniques) Carol Anderson (correction techniques) Wayne Curtis for giving my old training partner advice when he called and using that advice in our group, Pat Burns for doing and teaching/training me/dog the all-age "stuff" , and to Mike Lardy for early and later seminars I attended and the many folks at various field trials that gave me good sound advice. If you don't seek it out it will not drop in your lap! and that's my story Ted and sticking to it, you are on the money with your insight .


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> The problem lies in a society where everything is pretty much instantly available... information... food... everything...
> 
> Training a trial dog takes more blood, sweat and tears than most people have an interest in investing. That's why there are so many pro trained dogs.
> 
> The more kids you see playing with Momma's IPAD in the stroller, the worse things are going to get for people who actually want to unbolt themselves from technology and actually experience something in person.


I think this is a profound observation. That's why when I'm with the dogs, it slows me down. I can turn the constant buzz of civilization off. I have one advanced dog with a few issues we're trying to figure out, I have one dog who's just gone through transition that we're trying to bring along (actually trying to mostly maintain since winter's coming and serious training is on hiatus.)

So serious dog training can be slow, sometimes tedious and occasionally frustrating. But it's also a refuge from the busy world of instant gratification and constant demands.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I believe that students find teachers, and that teachers find students. There is new blood and there is new blood that continues on to be old blood. The latter tend to be highly self motivated and find their own mentors. The people that need external motivators don't last long. If you don't have the fire inside of you to get better, someone cannot put it inside of you.


Agree. I'm fortunate that I found a good teacher. And I would have better said that "helped" set the hook. Bait helps, regards


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Criquetpas said:


> Kinda agree most folks last about 3 to 5 years, the younger ones, then move on because of a variety of reasons. Don't think it is so much a J.P. Morgan, not enough money, but rather a tough road and a good dog.
> Some are reluctant to get rid of dogs and start collecting them, bad , bad thing or get in a rose collared glass about their dogs. There are a number of dogs that are made with many starts, professional training and are FC's and/or AFC's. For a amateur to compete as a trainer, he/she must have a very good to great dog in this day and age. Like I stated in a previous post it is hard to screw up a good dog. You seem to have a great attitude, have fun, do what you can and set realistic goals maybe just maybe, that great one will come along. I waited for nearly 20 years for one and then it rained cats and dogs , so to speak. Now my bucket just comes up with sand in the past 6 or 7 years...hope it is just a cycle.


That is kind of my point. My current dog is likely the best I will ever have as a marker and so I am playing the game for now but when he retires I am going to be out of the game. Not cause I want to but because I don't have the resources to be competitive. I will go back down to just HT. When you have one finished do at a time and you cannot make it past the first why do it. I don't care what bug you have that will get old first. You don't expect to place all the time but you have to feel like you are at least competitive. In 20 years when I don't ave little kids and have more time to train I will come back to trials.


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## J.Nichols (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm 26 and frequently the youngest competitor by a solid 20 years ... hopefully it's not doomed though.


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