# Really 30+ dogs for one handler



## Todd Caswell

https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=6794


This isn't about being able to get in or not for me I was given the heads up, I was at work and unable to get to a computer fine really doesn't matter to me but I was planning on running and working the weekend, for a club I do not belong to, but It's more about a club having there first HT and what a nightmare one "Pro" is going to create, instead of having a bunch of enteries from the surronding clubs with people willing to step in and give a hand now they have 3/4 of the field split between 2 pro's... All I can say is the system is terribly flawed. Feel really bad for the club..


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## younggun86

that's insane!!!! What can be done about stuff like that? I was going to post a thread about people judging who have their dogs pro trained and don't really know set ups. For a new comer like me it makes a guy hesitate about joining the sport, im addicted to it so it wont matter lol but aren't the odds stacked enough against the ams wheather in the hunt test or field trials. Seems like things are more geared around making a buck...?


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## Back77

Just wait and see how many of those he will actually run?


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## Tater 7

Hunt test is your dog against a standard so there aren't any "odds" but the participation is key for this sport and a pro taking up that many spots is pretty crazy. Club either needs to put more flights and make more positions available or something in my opinion


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## younggun86

I know a hunt test is dog against a standard, but isn't having no spots for an am kind of like going against odds?


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## jacduck

I still maintain the answer is a pro circuit and an amateur circuit. Let those that profit pay for the cost of an event upfront not relying on clubs to bankroll thier income.


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## Raymond Little

I would put both on the clock from the start and make them work their asses off in the process. Run each am handled dog first and the two pro last. No reason for am's to wait on 2/3 of the field to gather dogs.


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## fishduck

My guess is the pro in question called the club hunt chair prior to entering the dogs.


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## Todd Caswell

fishduck said:


> My guess is the pro in question called the club hunt chair prior to entering the dogs.


My guess is he will chime in at some point, but NO that was not the case..


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## Todd Caswell

First off I am not anti pro, I consider a few of them good friends, and MANY contibute and do more than there fair share in both the FT and HT games, but the ones that I speak of know that it takes both sides to make this game work, and don't take advantage of the situation. In this case I feel it is a complete lack of respect for the club to put them in a position where he is going to cost them money ( bydogs=extra time=xtra hired help) and extra live birds, throw bydogs in the mix with nobirds and you have a huge added expence to the club. Also a lack of respect for other handlers, seems to be all about me and my costomers. Never met the guy but may plan on going over to help the club out and introduce myself.. I would think marshaling would be the job to have for the 2 days


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## Splash_em

Raymond Little said:


> I would put both on the clock from the start and make them work their asses off in the process. Run each am handled dog first and two pro last. No reason for am's to wait on 2/3 of the field to gather dogs.


That's not the smart thing to do. If you put him on the clock, he has 15 minutes to get to the line. I guarantee that if they do something that ignorant, he wont be the one that suffers.

Y'all are barking up the wrong tree if you're looking to publicly lynch Ray. He judges, shoots fliers, helps chair and organize, and generally does anything possible to help.


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## JamesTannery

He must be good!


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## BJGatley

Splash_em said:


> That's not the smart thing to do. If you put him on the clock, he has 15 minutes to get to the line. I guarantee that if they do something that ignorant, he wont be the one that suffers.
> 
> Y'all are barking up the wrong tree if you're looking to publicly lynch Ray. He judges, shoots fliers, helps chair and organize, and generally does anything possible to help.


I believe no one mention names until now. Not good...This should of went to PMs or e-mail to air the fluff...so to speak. JMO of course.


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## Splash_em

BJGatley said:


> I believe no one mention names until now. Not good...This should of went to PMs or e-mail to air the fluff...so to speak. JMO of course.


Seriously????

It ain't rocket surgery to click a link and read.


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## BJGatley

And your point?


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## Splash_em

BJGatley said:


> And your point?


Same as yours obviously. If I've got an issue with "the unknown handler", I'd call him. 

JMO of course


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## suepuff

The heck with the title of the thread.....the fall scramble is starting. Notice all the tests that are open and take place August 1 and later are full already. Some clubs are listing opening times at least. I'm frustrated already. I'm looking to run in master and get legs towards a title. Not Q legs for MN. 

I'm off to bed and going to put this out of my mind....it's absolutely outrageous.

Sue Puff


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## BonMallari

from an outsider (non HT person) one can see that the game has created a monster, and now you want to control the monster that the game has created..The pro is only doing what he is hired to do by owners that want a titled dog, doesnt the absentee owner bear some of the responsibility for creating the situation

The pro is nothing more than an entrepeneur in this case, its very hard to limit the amount of clients he is allowed to have..that would be like telling a lawyer he can only take on so many clients because it clogs up the courts or telling a doctor he can only have so many patients because the hospital is filled


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## Rainmaker

All I can say is, I am sick of it. I've run HT for years. Have 3 dogs entered in a bunch of MH thru Oct. Though I did get in most limited MH that I wanted so far this season, several filled up so fast, I didn't, and, I seriously dislike having to play games to get my dogs entered, and in some cases, months in advance. I totally understand the clubs that need to limit entries, that's fine. I am not anti-pro by any stretch. But, this is wrong. And I'm about done running HT and certainly not going to work them or bother to jump through the hoops now required to judge them. I'll take my lickings running FT and at least have fun, they're still willing to take my money and let me play. When I don't have fun anymore, I quit playing the game. I don't have any answers or cures. I just think it's wrong.


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## BJGatley

Sounds good to me. Better conservation on phone or in person than on the internet without calling their name.


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## tim bonnema

How about this as a issue. since it is limited to 60 dogs and one pro has 33 it is not possible to put a dog between all his dogs. So the gunners will be waiting. and how does a Small, And I mean small club handle this when the honor comes up. He will have the honor dog and the working dog.


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## BJGatley

As with anything, you take the bad with the good. If you want things, then you have to be patience. Just as we do with our dogs. JMO


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## moscowitz

A pro with that many dogs should be obligated to have an assistant to bring him the dogs and to air them so no one is held up. Business expense. Maybe the answer is some clubs not being master national members so people just interested in the title can run in manageable hunt tests.


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## Ray Shanks

Glad to see there is a few people on here with their cup half full instead of half empty. I have only 13 dogs entered at west central with just my name on them. A good many of the other entries will be handled by the owner. Todd there is room for one more dog so feel free to enter yours. If you would like to discuss this with me my number is 706-338-9040. People that know me know the club will not have to wait on me or incur additional expenses.


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## Bridget Bodine

I wonder how many of them will be scratched and if it will be at the 11th hour? I don't run that circuit, but if I did THAT sure would be discouraging


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## Quacktastic

Some of you would complain about winning the lottery...


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## Rainmaker

I'm not calling out any pro or blaming them. I'm saying, this is wrong and skewing the intent of HT. When amateurs can't get in, something is wrong. I'm not talking about "competition" running against pros in HT, that's ludicrous, it is a standard, not a FT. I think to earn a HT title, an owner of the dog should handle it on at least one pass, if they are physically capable of doing so. Of course, some would get around that by just having co-owners, some of whom would be pros. I think if there are limits on entry numbers, then there should be limits on dogs per handler. And/or a lottery system. And/or spaces reserved for amateurs for a certain amount of time, or early entry by a day for amateurs. Or a posted opening date and time so everyone has the same chance to get in. Or a wait list and automated scratching by EE. When test after test after test fills up and big blocks of them with a pro handler/co-handler, it makes a lot of people wonder a lot of things, true or not, fair or not. It just isn't worth the angst anymore for a lot of us.


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## Todd Caswell

Ray Shanks said:


> Glad to see there is a few people on here with their cup half full instead of half empty. I have only 13 dogs entered at west central with just my name on them. A good many of the other entries will be handled by the owner. Todd there is room for one more dog so feel free to enter yours. If you would like to discuss this with me my number is 706-338-9040. People that know me know the club will not have to wait on me or incur additional expenses.


Thanks for the heads up, I'll sleep on it and decide in the morning. No need to discuss it with you I know where you stand with the situation from the paperwork you helped formulate a few months ago. Like I said it's a flawed system, Id'e make it a point to contact the owners and get your name off there paperwork, 13 dogs entered by a handler is a reasonable # 33 isn't;-)


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## Trevor Toberny

Man, how can someone train that many dogs?


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## stonybrook

Is an Owner/Handler Hunt Test a possibility? Not sure what is allowed by AKC. It can obviously be done for FT, maybe the time has come to allow the same for HT's.

I have absolutely no beef with pros. I do think this is a growing challenge for all involved and I really dislike seeing club members left on the outside looking in. That won't serve the clubs' futures well going forward.

In quickly reviewing the entries for this test, it appears at initial glance that only a handful of the 60 Master entries aren't listed as either run by or co-handled by a pro. Guess that about sums up the current state of affairs with the Master level in this day and age. Kind of sad to see so few amateur handled dogs. I sure think those folks are missing out on a lot of potential fun and enjoyment with their dogs. So how do we encourage more folks to run their own dogs? Maybe that is a bigger question?


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## Bruce MacPherson

Todd Caswell said:


> Thanks for the heads up, I'll sleep on it and decide in the morning. No need to discuss it with you I know where you stand with the situation from the paperwork you helped formulate a few months ago. Like I said it's a flawed system, Id'e make it a point to contact the owners and get your name off there paperwork, 13 dogs entered by a handler is a reasonable # 33 isn't;-)


Man I've heard , and read, this argument all year. What difference does it make who enters who's dog? The pro is doing his or her job if they have 2 dogs or 20 those folks paying said pro have just as much right to try and enter a test as the Am with one dog ,and I have news, fair has got absolutely nothing to do with it. If you don't like the format do what some others appear to be doing, switch games. Run FTs, HRCs or take up golf.


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## Henlee

just spit balling here, but since it is against a standard, is there a way for pros with that many dogs to make private arrangements with a club to judge their dogs on a separate date as to not fill all the slots at trials? The club could charge a fee for the service and it would hopefully work out to a win/win/win scenario for everybody?


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## dogluvah

There seem to be 2 issues here. #1 Pro taking all the limited entry spots- answer: Send you entry in first! #2 Pro with too many dogs causing delays and difficulties on test day - answer: Isn't this between the club and that pro? If he was decent he would offer to bring some bird boy helpers, gunners, and even some by dogs, or at least confer with club to see what they need to make the day run smoothly. Who knows, maybe this was done? 

Pros in our area use a helper to air dogs and bring them to the line to speed things along so they can get to next stake. Pros come to line faster than most amatuers whenever I marshall. Most trouble is when they are entered in multiple stakes and there is significant distance involved between stakes.

HRC has a solution. No one handler can enter more than 12 dogs. Seems sensible to me. AKC always seems more geared towards most profit they can make from their events. They have recently added so many different obedience level classes it is ridiculous, only reason is to garner more entry fees.


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## moscowitz

Simple what is the cause of this problem. Go to the cause and adjust or tweak that. You all know what the problem is?


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## TIM DOANE

Todd Caswell said:


> https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=6794
> 
> 
> This isn't about being able to get in or not for me I was given the heads up, I was at work and unable to get to a computer fine really doesn't matter to me but I was planning on running and working the weekend, for a club I do not belong to, but It's more about a club having there first HT and what a nightmare one "Pro" is going to create, instead of having a bunch of enteries from the surronding clubs with people willing to step in and give a hand now they have 3/4 of the field split between 2 pro's... All I can say is the system is terribly flawed. Feel really bad for the club..


 Todd I have pre national trained with Ray for the last 3 years. I can assure you Ray will bring all the help he needs and probably all the help the club needs.
Also if you have ever trained with Ray and his clients (many will be there) they also know how and when to help and most likely wont even need to be asked or told.

As far as 2 names listed as handler that is just the way it is set up on entry express. My clients do the same and it's done because sometimes I handle the dog and sometimes they do. It's just easier to leave both names on, certainly not done to make anybody mad.

I really hope you go run your dog and see if it really is the "nightmare" you have predicted. I would love to hear from you on Monday.


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## suepuff

The problem is not the pros. It is not the limits. It is the MN. That is what is driving this bus.


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## dogluvah

How would you change the MN to change this problem?


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## DEDEYE

A person could always email the secretary before the event is ready to enter, to find out when that date is. Then *enter early* rather than a day or two before it closes. I don't understand the issue here.


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## stonybrook

When my club test was posted a few weeks ago (late May I believe), Master was filled in about 2-3 days. This is for a test in August. Should a person really have to be forced to enter a test 2 months in advance just to be assured a spot? I know of a couple of club members that missed the boat and weren't able to get entered. I know they will still come and work but I'm not sure I would blame them if they didn't.


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## Rainmaker

DEDEYE said:


> A person could always email the secretary before the event is ready to enter, to find out when that date is. Then *enter early* rather than a day or two before it closes. I don't understand the issue here.


Mary, some tests are filling up rapidly as soon as entries open, sometimes within minutes. I have contacted clubs, don't always get an answer, though most are helpful and I'm thankful for the ones that are. It is now the buddy system to get entered in some areas. We're just really lucky here that there are a lot of tests throughout the summer, might have a chance at getting in enough to finish a MH. Maybe. It isn't because people are waiting til last minute. It's because we don't all have the heads up or the capability of being online watching for the entry opening. I knew the test that is the subject of this thread was opening, I wasn't going to enter, I'm to work my club's FT that weekend. But, have spent many foolish hours last year and this, trying to get info on opening time/day to get my dogs entered. I've gotten my dogs in, mostly. Last year, I didn't, had to figure out the system first. Now I have to ask myself, is it worth even bothering with HT anymore, because it is getting more frustrating than fun.


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## skyy

suepuff said:


> The problem is not the pros. It is not the limits. It is the MN. That is what is driving this bus.


...........the problem as I see it is that the standard is judged to "LOW".......


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## Huff

The problem is not the pros, they are playing by the rules that in place. This has been an issue on RTF for a while, yet when a club proposes a change to the process it gets defeated because not a 2/3 majority are in favor. Are the people on here not the majority or not active in retriever clubs? The pros are on the board that makes the decisions for the hunt tests so nothing is going to change as far as entries because they are making the rules. I am not anti pro in any way. They have to make a living and the clubs need the pros entries to break even and hopefully turn a profit. The problem is the amatuer is being pushed aside the way it is now. Clubs have put up a proposal to put only amatuers on the committee and it failed. My club has authored 2 proposal on rule changes in the past year and both have failed. Bitching on RTF is not helping anything, get involved and change it if you dont like it. 

I see 3 possible solutions:

1. Put the amatuer back in charge of the game and let them make the rules. Vote on this proposal has already failed due to not getting the 2/3 majority needed.
2. Change the qualification for the master national back to pass 6 of 8 tests in a year to get in. 
3. Create an owner handler master stake. This will hurt the clubs financially since the pros generally help pay the bills but will allow the amatuer to get in and play.

If anyone else has any thoughts on how to change the system feel free to write up a proposal and submit it for a vote. If not lets keep putting up a 10 page gripe fest on how hard it is to get into master tests each spring and fall and nothing will change. 

Russell Huffman


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## skyy

stonybrook said:


> When my club test was posted a few weeks ago (late May I believe), Master was filled in about 2-3 days. This is for a test in August. Should a person really have to be forced to enter a test 2 months in advance just to be assured a spot? I know of a couple of club members that missed the boat and weren't able to get entered. I know they will still come and work but I'm not sure I would blame them if they didn't.


why did/would your club or any club for that matter open that early......post your event but don't open til 30 days prior to your event date.....


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## Waterdogs

I was at a test earlier this summer where a pro had a bunch of dogs and he ran every other dog. I did not see any problems with it. His dogs were better than most the other dogs running and took less time to run. It might be very different in the area of country I live in but most the complaining I think is limited to the same folks that would complain anyway.


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## Pete

> The problem is not the pros, they are playing by the rules that in place. This has been an issue on RTF for a while, yet when a club proposes a change to the process it gets defeated because not a 2/3 majority are in favor. Are the people on here not the majority or not active in retriever clubs? The pros are on the board that makes the decisions for the hunt tests so nothing is going to change as far as entries because they are making the rules. I am not anti pro in any way. They have to make a living and the clubs need the pros entries to break even and hopefully turn a profit. The problem is the amatuer is being pushed aside the way it is now. Clubs have put up a proposal to put only amatuers on the committee and it failed. My club has authored 2 proposal on rule changes in the past year and both have failed. Bitching on RTF is not helping anything, get involved and change it if you dont like it.
> 
> I see 3 possible solutions:
> 
> 1. Put the amatuer back in charge of the game and let them make the rules. Vote on this proposal has already failed due to not getting the 2/3 majority needed.
> 2. Change the qualification for the master national back to pass 6 of 8 tests in a year to get in.
> 3. Create an owner handler master stake. This will hurt the clubs financially since the pros generally help pay the bills but will allow the amatuer to get in and play.
> 
> If anyone else has any thoughts on how to change the system feel free to write up a proposal and submit it for a vote. If not lets keep putting up a 10 page gripe fest on how hard it is to get into master tests each spring and fall and nothing will change.
> 
> Russell Huffman


What planet are you from.

In over 25 years I have never seen what you describe. Hunt tests are run by amateurs for the most part. And they are the ones who fuel professional trainers.

I am an officer in one club and a board member in another. My vote has always counted as 1 vote. And I work 6 events a year and run very few customer dogs in HT's at the moment.

My experience is not unique.

I think your just shooting off thoughts at the top of your head, fueled by emotion. Unjust animosity is easy to build.
The problems that success brings re the best kind of problems.

Pete


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## Cowtown

suepuff said:


> The problem is not the pros. It is not the limits. It is the MN. That is what is driving this bus.


100% agree


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## suepuff

skyy said:


> ...........the problem as I see it is that the standard is judged to "LOW".......


Maybe where you are. And if that is the case, go to Field trials. I do this for fun. I only train 2 or 3 days a week due to work and time constraints and I do other stuff with my dogs. Why does anyone else care if I don't pass or if it takes me 5 years to get a title? It gives me things to work on for next time and it's my money to waste. It's the journey I enjoy. If it's not the same for others and they have other priorities, that's fine....

What to do about MN? Go back to the 6 out of 8 passes like someone said. It wasn't an issue with tests filling to capacity quickly back then when that was the way to get qualified. To me, that makes it more challenging then just running repeatedly until you get your passes. 6 out of 8 shows consistency. Shouldn't the dogs running MN be the best of the best? If so, make the qualification hard. Right now, if you throw enough money at it, you can get the 5 or whatever passes you need. And that fills up tests for people that want to play the 'sport' and have fun with their dogs, family and friends. 

I'm with Kim, except I won't be going over to FTs. I know I don't have the dogs with the capability to run at that high level, nor the money or time to play that game. And that's ok.

Sue Puff


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## Huff

Pete said:


> What planet are you from.
> 
> In over 25 years I have never seen what you describe. Hunt tests are run by amateurs for the most part. And they are the ones who fuel professional trainers.
> 
> I am an officer in one club and a board member in another. My vote has always counted as 1 vote. And I work 6 events a year and run very few customer dogs in HT's at the moment.
> 
> My experience is not unique.
> 
> I think your just shooting off thoughts at the top of your head, fueled by emotion. Unjust animosity is easy to build.
> The problems that success brings re the best kind of problems.
> 
> Pete


Not shooting from the hip. Are some pros representing clubs as the proxy at master national meetings? I am not saying all clubs are represented by pros but some are and they are going to vote for thier interest, not blaming them. We put a proposal to the master national saying that all proxys should meet the definition of amatuer status and it did not meet the 2/3 majority. 

My point with my original post was that people want to get on here and gripe and complain about the system but I havent seen any proposals brought up that would address the issues. Ten pages of complaining on RTF does nothing to address the issues.

Beating a dead horse.


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## DoubleHaul

Huff said:


> Not shooting from the hip. Are some pros representing clubs as the proxy at master national meetings? I am not saying all clubs are represented by pros but some are and they are going to vote for thier interest, not blaming them. We put a proposal to the master national saying that all proxys should meet the definition of amatuer status and it did not meet the 2/3 majority.


And how would that proposal have changed anything? Pro or amateur, if a club can't trust its proxy to vote as directed, pick proxy it can trust.


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## mjh345

TIM DOANE said:


> .
> 
> I really hope you go run your dog and see if it really is the "nightmare" you have predicted. I would love to hear from you on Monday.


Let's also have Ray report in on the Monday after the test
. I'd like to know that he only runs 13 of those 33 dogs as he claims. Also Id like to know if he scratches any of those 33 dogs


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## fishduck

skyy said:


> ...........the problem as I see it is that the standard is judged to "LOW".......


Maybe so. The question is now who fails when the standard is pushed to the high end of the scale? My guess is the amateur without regular access to tech water that trains on the weekend. That describes the hunters I know. Hard to get those guys to work a test when they are consistently out in the first series.


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## i_willie12

For sure a broken system... Like some have said HRC doesnt have this issue! At a MH test about a month ago and Am's were talking/wheeling and dealing with a big Pro seeing if they could get on his list so that he could enter them in a big test that was coming up since they cant seem to get entered!! THAT is a problem!! And should get corrected!!! Its shouldnt have to be that way


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## Karen Klotthor

The voting at the Master Nat is only for the Master Nat. I judged last year with one of the Reps on the running rule committee for AKC. He flat out told me the clubs DO NOT VOTE on running rule changes. The club can summit a change but clubs do not vote. You would need to go over to the HRC side for clubs to vote. I think this is the real problem not who is running. The committe is the one that can change how many dogs are handled by one person. As I have stated in several other post about the clubs filling so fast, the fix to that is other than limiting how many dogs under one handler is that EE requires the owner only to enter the dog and that only ONE dog at a time can be entered. IF this happened than everyone would have time to enter if they want. It would slow down the entries a lot. As is stands now, anyone can list as many dogs as they want under on person and enter all dogs at the same time. Now you have 20 dogs entered in one second verses 1 dog entered for 20 different times. 
As far as Pros not working at a test, well I am not sure where everyone is but down south they do. I have run test and judges where the Pro was shooting flyers after running their dogs or before running. As far as Ray, you could not ask for any more help from him. I have watched him run, marshall, than cook all in same day.


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## mjh345

Sadly it appears that Todd won't be able to give us any updates on how his run went; as the test is filled.
The local Amateur can't get in but the pro from 1000's of miles away gets 33 dogs in.
Someone please tell me how that is fair? Also let me know how that dovetails with the fact that the HT game was started as a game for the Amateur.

I also noticed that even though the Master is full a month and a half before closing that there are as of now zero entries in SR & JR

People frequently talk about how the Pros keep the game alive and help the clubs survive with their large truck full of entries.
The Clubs generally make more money due to less resources required off of the JR & SR stakes IF there are large entries.

Seems like if these Pro's are so interested in being altruistic and "supporting the clubs" that they could bring a bunch of dogs for the JR & SR stakes also

I'll be interested to see how many dogs Ray enters { "to help support the club"} in the JR & SR


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## mjh345

Huff said:


> .
> 
> My point with my original post was that people want to get on here and gripe and complain about the system but I havent seen any proposals brought up that would address the issues. Ten pages of complaining on RTF does nothing to address the issues.
> 
> Beating a dead horse.


There have been numerous suggestions to address the system on various RTF threads. Proposals such as

1)limiting the number of dogs a handler can run, 
2) limiting entries to one dog per handler until all who want to run get their first dog entered, then repeating for 2nd 3rd etc dogs
3)publishing opening date
4)making entries only open to Ams for 48 or 72 hours
and many others

The debate is raging behind the scenes to see what proposals get adopted to address the problem


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## Granddaddy

Karen Klotthor said:


> The voting at the Master Nat is only for the Master Nat. I judged last year with one of the Reps on the running rule committee for AKC. He flat out told me the clubs DO NOT VOTE on running rule changes. The club can summit a change but clubs do not vote. You would need to go over to the HRC side for clubs to vote. I think this is the real problem not who is running. The committe is the one that can change how many dogs are handled by one person. As I have stated in several other post about the clubs filling so fast,* the fix to that is other than limiting how many dogs under one handler is that EE requires the owner only to enter the dog and that only ONE dog at a time can be entered. IF this happened than everyone would have time to enter if they want. It would slow down the entries a lot. * As is stands now, anyone can list as many dogs as they want under on person and enter all dogs at the same time. Now you have 20 dogs entered in one second verses 1 dog entered for 20 different times.
> As far as Pros not working at a test, well I am not sure where everyone is but down south they do. I have run test and judges where the Pro was shooting flyers after running their dogs or before running. As far as Ray, you could not ask for any more help from him. I have watched him run, marshall, than cook all in same day.


In other words, you would have EE provide a less efficient process (which would also add cc transaction costs) to make up for a not well thought out decision that clubs & the AKC made when they began to allow limited master stakes without understanding how that modification would affect the entry process - that is not an acceptable solution IMO. The solution is to have a std entry process where all parties know when entries will be opened/allowed 3 wks prior to an event closing (i.e., one month + 3 days prior to an event start) with all HT events offering limited master stakes subject to that std, giving everyone an equal opportunity to enter the stake. Further, I would develop a modified entry process once entries reach 90% of the total limited field & continue to receive entries in suspense or held state thereafter to a total of 110% of the limit and have those suspensed entries cleared at closing in the order received after scratches have been processed to insure the limited field is reached and those over the limit rejected. This would give everyone an equal opportunity to enter a particular event & maximize the potential of a club to host a full limited field.


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## Mike Sale

The problem around here is not the pro's at all ! Hell , the pro's are the only way we stay afloat and possibly even make a profit. Our problem is no help. A pro with 30-40 dogs entered in multiple stakes doesn't really have much free time. But ALL those people with one dog that don't do a DAMN thing but sit around and bitch ???? If a few more of those people would join the club and help out a little we might not even have to place limits on the tests anymore. We have 20 people if were lucky to run double Junior , Senior & Master and barely break even half the time and lose money more often. I'm sure there are other clubs with less help than we have ? Not to mention the fact that nobody does this anymore. there are 75,000 people in our county and 3 people train their dogs for HT.


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## TIM DOANE

mjh345 said:


> Sadly it appears that Todd won't be able to give us any updates on how his run went; as the test is filled.
> The local Amateur can't get in but the pro from 1000's of miles away gets 33 dogs in.
> Someone please tell me how that is fair? Also let me know how that dovetails with the fact that the HT game was started as a game for the Amateur.
> 
> I also noticed that even though the Master is full a month and a half before closing that there are as of now zero entries in SR & JR
> 
> People frequently talk about how the Pros keep the game alive and help the clubs survive with their large truck full of entries.
> The Clubs generally make more money due to less resources required off of the JR & SR stakes IF there are large entries.
> 
> Seems like if these Pro's are so interested in being altruistic and "supporting the clubs" that they could bring a bunch of dogs for the JR & SR stakes also
> 
> I'll be interested to see how many dogs Ray enters { "to help support the club"} in the JR & SR


If Ray brought JH and SH dogs he would hold up the MH stake to the point of shutting it down until he got back.
YA THINK ANYONE WOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT ???????????????


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## Swampcollie

suepuff said:


> The problem is not the pros. It is not the limits. It is the MN. That is what is driving this bus.



This is exactly the issue. T

he MNRC's existence is driving the beast and they have no desire to control the beast. They don't want to control it because doing so would force them to change their event. They want the big numbers at the national event and the revenue that comes with it. There was a time when the National was supposed to showcase the best master dogs that year. That is no longer the case. Now it has become a convention of master dogs that collected enough passes to qualify to go.


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## kelrobin

jacduck said:


> I still maintain the answer is a pro circuit and an amateur circuit. Let those that profit pay for the cost of an event upfront not relying on clubs to bankroll thier income.


I like this idea.


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## Jerry Beil

Seems like everyone is looking at this as a problem instead of as an opportunity. If we have more folks that want to run master than we have slots, then rather than looking at driving that demand down, why not look at ways to offer more master slots?

1. Reduce the 200 mile limit where it makes sense to do so.
2. Maybe increase cost to encourage more people to put on tests.
3. Help find land that can be used - if the AKC wants higher numbers they can help in this area.
4. Allow clubs to put on master only events with no JH or SH tests. 90% of the demand is at this level anyway.


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## Jerry Beil

kelrobin said:


> I like this idea.


Who would put on the amateur tests? Without the pros, most of these tests don't get enough dogs entered to make any money.


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## Granddaddy

Just a further comment on Ray Shanks, since he has received some focus here. I know Ray personally. Without his involvement a number of years ago during a period when I was president of the Atlanta Retriever Club, the club would have voted to no longer hold hunt tests. Most of our club members then were FT focused & were burned out working HTs they didn't enter. Also our then limited hunt test focused members were tired of all the work (as many club find themselves routinely) & decided to support only the HRC area club events. Ray stepped in, began managing the HT events, got a number of his clients and friends involved & this continues today. In fact, Ray's efforts have continued with several of the early volunteers recruited now holding officer positions in the ARC. Ray has also been a regular volunteer at the ARC FTs, shooting flyers & helping find birdboys for the FTs. Further, in many years, the ARC HT events have provided the financing for the FTs to be supported financially. Point is, guys like Ray are not the problem with limited HTs today but instead an easy target for those who don't like the current environment of the AKC HT game (in that regard, AKC HTs entries are growing while other games aren't at the same level which begs the question regarding the criticism). To the question how can a guy train 33 dogs, in Ray's case, he's hustles & trains very efficiently - and the results show him to be a good trainer since most of the dogs he trains achieve master titles under his training. His Master Nat'l achievements also speak for his success.

So let's keep focused on the the issues that limited entry master stakes have created & limit the discussion on how to level the entry opportunities among all those that want to enter. And BTW, limited entry master stakes solved a problem that many clubs faced. So a change was made to accommodate entry limiting. It just needs some further refinement - that should be our focus.


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## Granddaddy

Jerry Beil said:


> Seems like everyone is looking at this as a problem instead of as an opportunity. If we have more folks that want to run master than we have slots, then rather than looking at driving that demand down, why not look at ways to offer more master slots?
> 
> 1. Reduce the 200 mile limit where it makes sense to do so.
> 2. Maybe increase cost to encourage more people to put on tests.
> 3. Help find land that can be used - if the AKC wants higher numbers they can help in this area.
> 4. Allow clubs to put on master only events with no JH or SH tests. 90% of the demand is at this level anyway.


Jerry, these seem to me, to provide some good suggestions that could easily be adopted (although #3 is always a difficult problem & will likely be a growing problem in years to come).


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## Moose Mtn

My two cents. Does not matter if you are an ammy (Like my husband, who is running his 2nd master this weekend), a pro, or the client of a pro (as we also are, having our dog in training in another state) You HAVE to give back to the game. Thats what it boils down to.

I DO believe that only owners should be able to enter their dogs. That would at least give everyone a fighting chance, and level the playing field as far as mass entry. I have entered my own dog with a pro all along.... and cant imagine it any other way... If it is important to me to get my dog in the test... I should be the one entering them


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## Scott R.

Jerry Beil said:


> Who would put on the amateur tests? Without the pros, most of these tests don't get enough dogs entered to make any money.


Exactly. The burden would still fall on the clubs to put on the event, supply labor, back the event financially, and provide the grounds. In fact a two circuit system could possibly serve to have a greater negative impact on the amateur than the current set up. Would clubs now be expected to put on additional events each year to provide one for pros and one for amateurs? That wouldn't happen in many cases because more than a few clubs would only put on the event that would be full and provide the best opportunity to at least break even financially...that probably wouldn't be the amateur event. 

As as mentioned above, nothing should be considered that would diminish the popularity of the sport. If Master National has grown into a large event, fine. There is power in numbers and a day will come when we need that power to fend off special interest groups that would love to kill the sport entirely.


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## .44 magnum

Forget titles, love your dog for his or her hunting ability. You know what you got, it's not important in the short lives they have with you. 

If it's all that important to you hire the Pro who gets it done.


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## Jerry Beil

On number 3 there are a number of approaches that could have some impact.

1. The development of public retriever training grounds - like Cooper Black in SC. NC is beginning working toward something like this.
2. Can the AKC do something to make it more worthwhile for land owners to offer their property for retriever work - I'm not sure what, but if could be financial, or liability related, or just recognition and PR perhaps.
3. Part of the challenge is grounds maintenance - this typically takes lots of time and or equipment and materials. 

Maybe if the AKC took some of the money from the entries and offered grants back to landowners or clubs that were willing to put it towards maintaining grounds that would then be available for hunt tests.

The key is that grounds are probably our biggest challenges as amateur trainers, as well as for putting on hunt tests, and they're going to continue to be and it's not going to get better by itself.

If the AKC was somehow able to offer grants to land owners or clubs along with an extra layer of liability protection for the landowners, or by helping clubs find resources to land maintenance at potentially discounted costs etc, that could make a difference.

The individual clubs are generally too small to do anything significant. Even if a club were to put ALL of the money made on tests back into grounds, it's not enough, but the ACK could pool this.

Maybe if there is an area that is in need of grounds and the AKC could have an impact, they could put a surcharge on the entry fees for grounds development in that area.

This is just brainstorming and probably none of these are great ideas, we need to do something to bring in more and better grounds.


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## Justin Allen

Ray Shanks is the last pro people should complain about. He is known to show up with plenty of help. When I ran ARC's derby in the fall of 2012 he and his bird boys handled all the work from start to finish. He had no dogs entered, he was simply there marshaling and supplying bird boys. Not many pros do that.


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## paul young

Limited entries are not the problem.
Pros are not the problem. 
The way Entry Express does business is not the problem.
The Master National is not the problem.

The problem is HOW DOGS GET QUALIFIED to run the Master National. It SHOULD NOT BE based on how many weekend tests the dog qualifies in during a 12 month period. It SHOULD BE based on passing a REGIONAL QUALIFIER TEST WITH NO ENTRY LIMIT (1 in each region) ORGANIZED BY THE MNRC. The dog COULD run all 4 in order to punch their ticket. The tests SHOULD BE more difficult, while within the regulations and guidelines and SHOULD BE judged by past Master National judges and the bar raised. For example, an average of 8.0 instead of 7.0.-Paul


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## Sneeze

.44 magnum said:


> Forget titles, love your dog for his or her hunting ability.


We are quick to forget these sports are about making great hunting dogs & not bragging to our peers about how our pro took our dog to a SH title. 

Don't get me wrong here, titles sure feel good. When I think about paying for one I realize I can pay for sex too.


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## DoubleHaul

TIM DOANE said:


> If Ray brought JH and SH dogs he would hold up the MH stake to the point of shutting it down until he got back.
> YA THINK ANYONE WOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT ???????????????


LOL. I am sure even if Ray brought all the dogs, all the help, catered lunches for everyone, an open bar afterwards and handed everyone goody bags on the way out of town while tossing a few Gs into the club's treasury, someone would find something to complain about.


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## Tater 7

I think that a good solution would be to say limit pro entries to 1/2 of the available spots and the other 1/2 for amateurs for one month before the event, then cut the amateur entry date off 2-3 days before the official close date which is 2 weeks before the event date if I am not mistaken and then allow the pros to fill up the remainder of the spots that were not filled by amatuers. This would at the very least insure equal balance between pros and amateurs regarding the number of entries if the event fills up. And by amatuer, the dog must be owned and handled by an amateur as to keep pros/workers of pros entering dogs on the amateur side. This would put responsibility for owners to come out and get involved with their dogs that may be pro trained too.


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## DoubleHaul

Sneeze said:


> We are quick to forget these sports are about making great hunting dogs & not bragging to our peers about how our pro took our dog to a SH title.
> 
> Don't get me wrong here, titles sure feel good. When I think about paying for one I realize I can pay for sex too.


Nice first post for a dual.


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## Hunt'EmUp

Mike Sale said:


> But ALL those people with one dog that don't do a DAMN thing but sit around and bitch ???? /QUOTE]
> 
> Ohh the poor pro doesn't have time to help as he running around getting paid for 33 dogs. So the amateur who travels and runs one dog, (who's there on his own dime) should go out and throw birds for him so he can get paid. Figure in a Master (1 dog) uses 3(throws x 3 series) + 3 blinds. Thus to equal the club out on help, for my dog. I need to throw 21 birds, (that's my obligation, to ensure I'm not taking advantage, we'll forget that I've already paid $80 for the privilege) As I like the club; lets double that 42 birds (enough to get 2 other dogs through). One setup one station=60 birds, I'm only obligated to 42, but whoever gets to come in from a station before a series is completed? The rest of the time I spend waiting, for 33 dog who are being ran by one paid person, who doesn't have _time_ to help, with owners who aren't throwing birds. These people paid the same $80 I did, are getting the same # of throws, yet they aren't out in the sun on their day off, heck they ain't even there. But I'm expected to throw birds for these 33 dogs at every test I go to, for a club who's made $80 a dog, a Pro that's also being paid, and owners who are probably on a beach somewhere. Simply because I choose to come out and pay to run my dog at an event, and then I can't even bitch about it?. Who's the idiot in this equation?
> 
> I know several of pros that do help, even without having time; I know many who don't; it's pretty much a tie (pro vs. am) for who's whining loudest in the gallery .


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## Sneeze

DoubleHaul said:


> Nice first post for a dual.


What is a dual?


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## Jerry Beil

Nice second post for a dual.


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## Gunner_MN

I have one thing to add on how these pros are able to train 30+ dogs. *They are not wasting there day on RTF with 100s or 1000s of posts behind their username.* They are out training dogs. To those of you who have issues or some sort of agenda , do yourself a favor and step away from the computer and go run some drills with your dog(s). It will do you both some good.


Pat Taphorn, MN
“Shut up and Train”


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## RookieTrainer

It would be less efficient to have to enter one dog at the time, regardless of who does it (owner/pro/whoever). However, if you required the opening time to be published and limited entries to one dog at a time, how could anybody argue that it was not about as fair as it could get as far as the opportunity to enter?



Granddaddy said:


> In other words, you would have EE provide a less efficient process (which would also add cc transaction costs) to make up for a not well thought out decision that clubs & the AKC made when they began to allow limited master stakes without understanding how that modification would affect the entry process - that is not an acceptable solution IMO. The solution is to have a std entry process where all parties know when entries will be opened/allowed 3 wks prior to an event closing (i.e., one month + 3 days prior to an event start) with all HT events offering limited master stakes subject to that std, giving everyone an equal opportunity to enter the stake. Further, I would develop a modified entry process once entries reach 90% of the total limited field & continue to receive entries in suspense or held state thereafter to a total of 110% of the limit and have those suspensed entries cleared at closing in the order received after scratches have been processed to insure the limited field is reached and those over the limit rejected. This would give everyone an equal opportunity to enter a particular event & maximize the potential of a club to host a full limited field.


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## DoubleHaul

Jerry Beil said:


> Nice second post for a dual.


Well played!


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## Granddaddy

RookieTrainer said:


> It would be less efficient to have to enter one dog at the time, regardless of who does it (owner/pro/whoever). However, if you required the opening time to be published and limited entries to one dog at a time, how could anybody argue that it was not about as fair as it could get as far as the opportunity to enter?


That was the point of the comment I made. Let everyone who is interested have an equal opportunity to enter by making the date & time known when entries would be opened. As you said, seems fair to me.


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## kelrobin

Jerry Beil said:


> Who would put on the amateur tests? Without the pros, most of these tests don't get enough dogs entered to make any money.


Oh I'm not saying that I have the answers, just that I like the idea. I know the pros are very important to the sport, but to get back to the original post, I don't like that they took all the spots and the person with one or two dogs is unable to get a spot.


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## Granddaddy

Tater 7 said:


> I think that a good solution would be to say limit pro entries to 1/2 of the available spots and the other 1/2 for amateurs for one month before the event, then cut the amateur entry date off 2-3 days before the official close date which is 2 weeks before the event date if I am not mistaken and then allow the pros to fill up the remainder of the spots that were not filled by amatuers. This would at the very least insure equal balance between pros and amateurs regarding the number of entries if the event fills up. And by amatuer, the dog must be owned and handled by an amateur as to keep pros/workers of pros entering dogs on the amateur side. This would put responsibility for owners to come out and get involved with their dogs that may be pro trained too.


Sounds fair but difficult, costly & time consuming to implement & administer for the entry service & club. Further the closer you get to the event date the more difficult for entrants to get motel rooms, make travel arrangements etc. Instead, just open the entry process at a known time & date & give everyone an equal opportunity to enter. A person entering 1-2 dogs would have a distinct advantage of getting his entries done before a pro entering a lot of dogs. That balance should satisfy all of these amateurs with concerns for the high volume pro taking a large number of spots.


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## DoubleHaul

I blame the HRC: If the grand hadn't become such a line manners beat down, half these evil pros would not have switched to AKC and would be wearing face paint and sitting on buckets instead of stinking up AKC tests.

I blame the SRS: If they had been a little less obvious about rigging the game, a bunch of these dirty lowdown pros would be wearing out whistles picking up rubber ducks instead of stealing from amateurs at HTs

I blame the greedy clubs: don't have land? Get on Trulia and buy some; don't have water? Google backhoe services and make a pond; don't have help? Mapquest the nearest home depot where there is lots of help on Saturday mornings. 

I blame the judges: If they weren't wasting their weekends passing dogs, nobody would be able to enter these MH tests and take my slot away.

I blame Xerox: If Xerox hadn't invented the copier, there would have been no way AKC could have stolen the NAHRA rules and HTs would never have taken off and the pros would still only be able to work for the scions of robber barons, subsisting on stolen crumbs from the kitchen like the vermin that they are.

I blame RTF: if it weren't for RTF nobody could go from the 'getting my first dog' post to dispensing training advice in a month and it would be much harder to learn to train dogs on the interwebs and there would be nobody running MH.

Finally, I blame EE: because I am just a caveman and technology frightens and confuses me.


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## Quacktastic

mjh345 said:


> Sadly it appears that Todd won't be able to give us any updates on how his run went; as the test is filled.
> The local Amateur can't get in but the pro from 1000's of miles away gets 33 dogs in.
> Someone please tell me how that is fair? Also let me know how that dovetails with the fact that the HT game was started as a game for the Amateur.
> 
> I also noticed that even though the Master is full a month and a half before closing that there are as of now zero entries in SR & JR
> 
> People frequently talk about how the Pros keep the game alive and help the clubs survive with their large truck full of entries.
> The Clubs generally make more money due to less resources required off of the JR & SR stakes IF there are large entries.
> 
> Seems like if these Pro's are so interested in being altruistic and "supporting the clubs" that they could bring a bunch of dogs for the JR & SR stakes also
> 
> I'll be interested to see how many dogs Ray enters { "to help support the club"} in the JR & SR



The master test opened up for entires on a certain date. It appears Ray logged on entry express, entered the dogs he wished to run, and paid the entry fee. He did this before others did so, and therefore filled a number of spots on a limited roster. He beat you to the sign ups, just like a number of other folks did. Seems pretty fair to me...

Some of you need to get off his entitlement wagon. The folks who think pro's should be required to work for free, need to step out of Obama-land for a bit and come back to reality. We don't demand that anyone with a veterinary degree is to work the event for free, if they wish to participate in a master test. We don't tell the guy who works for coca-cola, that he must work the concession stand for free if he wishes to run any dogs. So why the hell would people think it's ok that they dictate to a pro trainer that they had better volunteer to work for free or bring free help if they plan on running a dog? Volunteering is just that....it's something you offer to do, out of kindness, in order to contribute. But it sure as heck isn't supposed to be dictated. If a club can't find enough help to host an event, then they need to reorganize how they do things, and not host a test until they can find/hire enough help. It's not Rays job to find different ways to support the club monetarily. That's the job of the club officers and it's members. Ray's job is to show up on time, run the dogs he has entered in a timely fashion, and leave the grounds in a respectable and clean manner. Anything beyond that is up to Ray ( or any other handler). And knowing Ray...I'm sure he will go above and beyond.


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## Tater 7

Granddaddy said:


> Sounds fair but difficult, costly & time consuming to implement & administer for the entry service & club. Further the closer you get to the event date the more difficult for entrants to get motel rooms, make travel arrangements etc. Instead, just open the entry process at a known time & date & give everyone an equal opportunity to enter. A person entering 1-2 dogs would have a distinct advantage of getting his entries done before a pro entering a lot of dogs. That balance should satisfy all of these amateurs with concerns for the high volume pro taking a large number of spots.


I don't think it would be hard to manage. It would be done a number of ways using entry express. For instance, Set it up so that there is a check box indicating pro or amateur. To keep amateurs from entering under the pro division after their cut off, provide the pros with a special number or certain way that they can only enter the test after the amateur entry period is closed. 

Or, they could set up 2 different entries for pro and amateur. Pros would be required to have a special identification code or something that entry express can recognize they are a pro with, to be able to enter the pro category before a certain date. After that date, any person can enter the pro category without a code.

There are many other ways they could set up this kind of system but those are just some ideas. That is the fairest way I could think to make the entry opportunities equal. I'm all for the pros. A lot of them are willing to help out an amateur when looking for training advice and at events. For those of you that completely bash pros, please do not post on here looking for professional advice if you are going to criticize them while they are doing their job. They have a family to feed just like most of you and are just doing what they are paid to do. Its almost being a hypocrite to ask them for help but then try to ban them or limit them from the games you are trying to compete in also. There just needs to be some sort of equal balance during competition.

There are rude and mean people on both sides of the field but its not fair to classify all the pros as the same kind of people when only some of them cause a bad reputation.


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## swliszka

Richard Wolters is turning in his grave. RIP


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## jhnnythndr

Whose judging that jr? since its wide open i might sign up my dog if those judges aren't too tough, do they care if I wear a leash or my dog brings back a shoe from the bird boy- will they count it?


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## TIM DOANE

Sneeze said:


> What is a dual?


Would SOMEONE please answer this question.


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## jeff evans

Here's a simple answer to the problem. The OWNER must run their dog at tests. Have a pro train it but the owner must be present to run the dog... Simple. Don't run HT but seems to make sense since the game was designed for amateur hunters.


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## FOM

Just a side note and a plea from all HTS out there, if you are a Pro and know your client is running the dog or if you are the client and you know you are running the dog, please remove your Pro's name. It helps when setting up the running order to ensure there are enough dogs in between those dogs being run by the same handler.


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## HiRollerlabs

FOM said:


> Just a side note and a plea from all HTS out there, if you are a Pro and know your client is running the dog or if you are the client and you know you are running the dog, please remove your Pro's name. It helps when setting up the running order to ensure there are enough dogs in between those dogs being run by the same handler.


If you didn't put down the correct handler when you entered on EE, go the marshal first thing in the morning, and put the correct handler name on the dog so the marshal can cross out any incorrect handler names. That really helps the marshal!


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## HiRollerlabs

Did the Master National titles (i.e., MN5, etc.) contribute to the increased number of Master-level dogs running AKC Hunting Tests and being handled by pros? If not, what are the reasons for all the pro-handled dogs in the Master division of hunting tests?


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## Jerry Beil

The reason there isn't a solution coming up in these posts is because you're trying to solve something that isn't the problem. The problem is that you have more demand for the slots than you have slots. There are really only 2 approaches to resolving that. First, reduce the demand. This can be done by making it harder for people to enter, limiting how many entries, not allowing pros, not allowing yellow dogs, making it not conditional to running the MN etc. The problem is that we have folks who are willing to spend money and willing to participate - so it's kind of silly - having paying customers isn't a problem that needs solved.

Second, increase the supply. Any business that has a superabundance of paying customers would normally take this approach.

In this specific instance, the problem is the 60 dog limit. What can be done to remove the limits. Figure the club probably makes about 25% profit on a reasonably full flight, so about $1000 on one full flight. If they had 3 flights, they triple their profit. If the money is there in the form of paying customers, then we need to figure out a way to deliver the product to the marketplace.

At the $75 entry fee, the pro who entered 33 dogs is bringing almost $2500 of revenue to the club. It's important to the club to cultivate these kinds of "customers" not find ways to make it harder for them. And from what I've heard, this particular pro is ALWAYS willing to chip in and do at least his share of the work. So what if he's getting paid to train and run dogs, the bottom line is that he's the biggest customer at this test by far. Sure we can talk all kinds of altruistic talk about how we do it for the dogs or for the sport, and not for the money, but I got news for you. If clubs can't make money having tests, they won't put them on. Chase the pros out of this game and you'll have a lot of clubs deciding they can't afford to put on a test with 12JH, 14SH and 11MH dogs.


----------



## DarrinGreene

Luke T said:


> Man, how can someone train that many dogs?


With a lot of competent help (that I imagine he will bring to the test to feed, air and water the dogs + bring them thru the holding blinds to the line).


----------



## Russ

Jerry Beil said:


> The reason there isn't a solution coming up in these posts is because you're trying to solve something that isn't the problem.test by far.
> 
> Sure we can talk all kinds of altruistic talk about how we do it for the dogs or for the sport, and not for the money, but I got news for you. If clubs can't make money having tests, they won't put them on. Chase the pros out of this game and you'll have a lot of clubs deciding they can't afford to put on a test with 12JH, 14SH and 11MH dogs.


I agree that putting on hunt tests is done for alturistic reasons. I think those reasons have to do with opportunity for club members at the event and reciprocating to members of other clubs to have the opportunity to enter. If individuals are shut out, the interest in supporting tests wanes and clubs will stop underwriting them. Very few tests make money if the time, out of pocket expenses for volunteers such as mileage etc. and amotization of equipment are added into the equation.

I do not blame the pros (except when they withdraw all of their dogs a the last minute) but I think something in the system needs to be tweaked.


----------



## DarrinGreene

Jerry Beil said:


> The reason there isn't a solution coming up in these posts is because you're trying to solve something that isn't the problem. The problem is that you have more demand for the slots than you have slots. There are really only 2 approaches to resolving that. First, reduce the demand. This can be done by making it harder for people to enter, limiting how many entries, not allowing pros, not allowing yellow dogs, making it not conditional to running the MN etc. The problem is that we have folks who are willing to spend money and willing to participate - so it's kind of silly - having paying customers isn't a problem that needs solved.
> 
> Second, increase the supply. Any business that has a superabundance of paying customers would normally take this approach.
> 
> In this specific instance, the problem is the 60 dog limit. What can be done to remove the limits. Figure the club probably makes about 25% profit on a reasonably full flight, so about $1000 on one full flight. If they had 3 flights, they triple their profit. If the money is there in the form of paying customers, then we need to figure out a way to deliver the product to the marketplace.
> 
> At the $75 entry fee, the pro who entered 33 dogs is bringing almost $2500 of revenue to the club. It's important to the club to cultivate these kinds of "customers" not find ways to make it harder for them. And from what I've heard, this particular pro is ALWAYS willing to chip in and do at least his share of the work. So what if he's getting paid to train and run dogs, the bottom line is that he's the biggest customer at this test by far. Sure we can talk all kinds of altruistic talk about how we do it for the dogs or for the sport, and not for the money, but I got news for you. If clubs can't make money having tests, they won't put them on. Chase the pros out of this game and you'll have a lot of clubs deciding they can't afford to put on a test with 12JH, 14SH and 11MH dogs.


I have said this several times to no avail...


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## Labs

FOM said:


> Just a side note and a plea from all HTS out there, if you are a Pro and know your client is running the dog or if you are the client and you know you are running the dog, please remove your Pro's name. It helps when setting up the running order to ensure there are enough dogs in between those dogs being run by the same handler.


When there are tests with more than one flight, clients running their own dogs put the pro's name down too so they can be in the same flight together...


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## Buzz

Todd Caswell said:


> https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=6794
> 
> 
> This isn't about being able to get in or not for me I was given the heads up, I was at work and unable to get to a computer fine really doesn't matter to me but I was planning on running and working the weekend, for a club I do not belong to, but It's more about a club having there first HT and what a nightmare one "Pro" is going to create, instead of having a bunch of enteries from the surronding clubs with people willing to step in and give a hand now they have 3/4 of the field split between 2 pro's... All I can say is the system is terribly flawed. Feel really bad for the club..



Wow! I was thinking about taking a couple of my dogs and trying hunt tests out. That test doesn't close till July 28th master is full already? If its that hard to get entered in a master test, screw it, I'll take my lumps on the field trial circuit. Is this a result of folks trying to qualify for the MN? If folks are looking for more competition, they can find it in trials.


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## Buzz

Labs said:


> When there are tests with more than one flight, clients running their own dogs put the pro's name down too *so they can be in the same flight together...*


What difference should that make? Don't they have a truck with a crate in it so they can transport their dogs to another flight?


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## Quacktastic

Todd Caswell said:


> Thanks for the heads up, I'll sleep on it and decide in the morning. No need to discuss it with you I know where you stand with the situation from the paperwork you helped formulate a few months ago. Like I said it's a flawed system, Id'e make it a point to contact the owners and get your name off there paperwork, 13 dogs entered by a handler is a reasonable # 33 isn't;-)


 Translation "I'm too chicken sh*t to talk to a man in person, I just like hiding behind my keyboard and stirring up drama on an Internet message board." You had no intention of running your dog in that test Todd, so why pick a fight? Sleep on that for a while, since you won't be thinking about running your dog.


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## Wade Thurman

Quacktastic said:


> Translation "I'm too chicken sh*t to talk to a man in person, I just like hiding behind my keyboard and stirring up drama on an Internet message board." You had no intention of running your dog in that test Todd, so why pick a fight? Sleep on that for a while, since you won't be thinking about running your dog.


OH BOY are you out of line with that comment!!! All the good things people have said on this thread regarding Ray, go ahead and double that for Todd!!


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## Mike Perry

I can't believe that those of us who know Ray have not mentioned already that his wife judges also. 
I have been on a plane all day and this is my first read while waiting for the next one.
And as far as training 30+ dogs. I used to train more for the public than I do now, and at one time had 16 client dogs and 8 of my own. I trained alone. All got adequate work each day because I started at 5:30 and went till done. Not a lot of discussion about every single set up, mark and blind, and beer drinking in between dogs like you see at many club training days. Load the wingers and get after it. Have a plan. Execute it. Have a plan B. Not rocket surgery to paraphrase Richard. It's a profession and those who are good at it can make it look tremendously easier than it really is.
I have run a bunch of HT's this spring, judged 1, marshalled several, helped put one on as part of my payback and can only think of one pro who gummed the works. It was in Fla., I had never seen him before and unfortunately, both days he held up all 3 flights, talking to clients and friends. HE IS THE EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE!!!!!!!!! And he only had about 8 dogs. 
My take on this whole Pro thing is that a lot of non pros who wish to run the MH don't train to the standard necessary to pass the test and when compared to pro trained dogs, they don't measure up. I know that is not how it is supposed to be judged, but it is just human nature. They would like to think if it were all non pros, the bar would be lower. There you go, a topic for another discussion.
Off to Argentina regards,
MP


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## Wayne Nutt

I have a friend with a single dog that ran in about 6 master tests this spring. He was able to get registered via EE but had to work very hard at continually watching EE for openings.
I don't have an issue with this pro entering 13 dogs but I think the other 20 handlers should enter their own dogs and compete for openings just like every one else.


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## John Kelder

Rainmaker said:


> All I can say is, I am sick of it. I've run HT for years. Have 3 dogs entered in a bunch of MH thru Oct. Though I did get in most limited MH that I wanted so far this season, several filled up so fast, I didn't, and, I seriously dislike having to play games to get my dogs entered, and in some cases, months in advance. I totally understand the clubs that need to limit entries, that's fine. I am not anti-pro by any stretch. But, this is wrong. And I'm about done running HT and certainly not going to work them or bother to jump through the hoops now required to judge them. I'll take my lickings running FT and at least have fun, they're still willing to take my money and let me play. When I don't have fun anymore, I quit playing the game. I don't have any answers or cures. I just think it's wrong.


You look good in white Kim  And I am of the same opinion BTW - Jumping thru hoops to get my training in is one thing - to enter an event that used to be as simple as writing a check and putting a stamp on the envelope twist into this is absurd ..Hope I look good in white too regards...........


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## Gatzby

Quacktastic said:


> Translation "I'm too chicken sh*t to talk to a man in person, I just like hiding behind my keyboard and stirring up drama on an Internet message board." You had no intention of running your dog in that test Todd, so why pick a fight? Sleep on that for a while, since you won't be thinking about running your dog.


Real nice quaktastic!! Todd is a helluva nice guy who is very generous and involved in this sport. He deserves an apology!


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## DoubleHaul

Buzz said:


> If folks are looking for more competition, they can find it in trials.


Where is the competition in trials? Anyone can enter one of them--they don't have a limit.  The best part is I pretty much always have my Sundays free.

Seriously, it will peter out. It will be especially tough in the east and in the fall, but once dogs get qualified it will slow down. Late spring would be a good time if you want to give it a shot.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23

Buzz said:


> What difference should that make? Don't they have a truck with a crate in it so they can transport their dogs to another flight?


Many times no they don't.


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## Granddaddy

Tater 7 said:


> I don't think it would be hard to manage. *It would be done a number of ways using entry express. For instance, Set it up so that there is a check box indicating pro or amateur. To keep amateurs from entering under the pro division after their cut off, provide the pros with a special number or certain way that they can only enter the test after the amateur entry period is closed.*
> 
> *Or, they could set up 2 different entries for pro and amateur.* Pros would be required to have a special identification code or something that entry express can recognize they are a pro with, to be able to enter the pro category before a certain date. After that date, any person can enter the pro category without a code.
> 
> There are many other ways they could set up this kind of system but those are just some ideas. That is the fairest way I could think to make the entry opportunities equal. I'm all for the pros. A lot of them are willing to help out an amateur when looking for training advice and at events. For those of you that completely bash pros, please do not post on here looking for professional advice if you are going to criticize them while they are doing their job. They have a family to feed just like most of you and are just doing what they are paid to do. Its almost being a hypocrite to ask them for help but then try to ban them or limit them from the games you are trying to compete in also. There just needs to be some sort of equal balance during competition.
> 
> There are rude and mean people on both sides of the field but its not fair to classify all the pros as the same kind of people when only some of them cause a bad reputation.


Just so you know, I am speaking for EE & anytime there is software code programming involved which your suggestions would require, it is difficult & costly. Beyond the s/w programing, you have the issue of owners who are amateurs entering & then having pros running the dogs, so you have accomplished nothing - and you give the club something else to regulate when the clubs consist of volunteers that have too much to do already in hosting an event.


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## Golddogs

HiRollerlabs said:


> Did the Master National titles (i.e., MN5, etc.) contribute to the increased number of Master-level dogs running AKC Hunting Tests and being handled by pros? If not, *what are the reasons for all the pro-handled dogs in the Master division of hunting tests*?


Owners with more money than time, lack of desire to learn how to handle the newly trained dog and the need to say they own a Master Hunter. 

I own MH is the New Black Regards


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## DManey

I can personally attest to the work ethic of Mr. Shanks and his crew... I have only spent one weekend around him, and can tell you first hand I would not want to follow him around all day or his helpers for that matter. You do not have to worry about him being at the line and ready, he will be there! He may run from the honor bucket back to the truck, or have the next dog passed off to him somewhere in between to get it done but....he will be ready! I my self went with his wife to the flight pen and spent how ever long it takes to catch and crate 250 flyers for the next day so it would be done, and no one else would have to worry about it! (Thats a hard working woman that never complained!) After that we went and worked on getting a Master flight finished for the evening. I threw and planted the blind and she handled the duties on the other side. I also shot flyers the next day..Might I add, this was the first AKC test I had ever seen! and still ran my dog.


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## Todd Caswell

Quacktastic said:


> Translation "I'm too chicken sh*t to talk to a man in person, I just like hiding behind my keyboard and stirring up drama on an Internet message board." You had no intention of running your dog in that test Todd, so why pick a fight? Sleep on that for a while, since you won't be thinking about running your dog.


Hmmm, acually when this club was looking at having a HT I was called and informed of it back in Feb. told them that I would come out run my dogs and spend the weekend working, Iv'e judged for them (FT) on three occasions, the club is very small I know most of them and consider them good friends, when it opened I was informed, work got in the way and wasn't able to get to a computer, when I was able there was 1 spot left ( Iv'e got 2 dogs) oh well. As I was thinking about it from a running stand point I really didn't want to be part of it, I don't care what anone says from a logistics stand point it's going to be a mess, but you know what I'm still going to go and help for a day because I said I would, and I'll bet I will have a chance to run both my dogs as bydog if needed.. And no I wasn't picking a fight, if I had been picking a fight I would have been more blunt and to the point..

And speaking of hiding behind a keyboard, do I know you?? I can't seen to recognize you by your SCREEN NAME..


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## Granddaddy

John Kelder said:


> You look good in white Kim  And I am of the same opinion BTW - Jumping thru hoops to get my training in is one thing - to enter an event that used to be as simple as writing a check and putting a stamp on the envelope twist into this is absurd ..Hope I look good in white too regards...........


Maybe simple for you as an entrant but much more involved for the club secretary who had to type up a premium, send out entry forms, answer multiple phone calls daily leading up to the event, receive the entries, deposit the checks, develop a running order & have the running order printed, then cross-off the entries for checks that bounced, answer numerous phone calls about directions & confirm whether entries were received, etc, etc. No this is a much better process & limited entry rules for master tests just need to be further refined. No jumping through hoops required, just be alert to when entries are being accepted - and the club won't be looking for a new secretary for every event.


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## Todd Caswell

DManey said:


> I can personally attest to the work ethic of Mr. Shanks and his crew... I have only spent one weekend around him, and can tell you first hand I would not want to follow him around all day or his helpers for that matter. You do not have to worry about him being at the line and ready, he will be there! He may run from the honor bucket back to the truck, or have the next dog passed off to him somewhere in between to get it done but....he will be ready! I my self went with his wife to the flight pen and spent how ever long it takes to catch and crate 250 flyers for the next day so it would be done, and no one else would have to worry about it! (Thats a hard working woman that never complained!) After that we went and worked on getting a Master flight finished for the evening. I threw and planted the blind and she handled the duties on the other side. I also shot flyers the next day..Might I add, this was the first AKC test I had ever seen! and still ran my dog.


I'm sure he is hard working and a heck of a good guy, this really isn't about an individual it's about a system that isn't working and a group of people that continue to take advantage of it, they know there is a problem , they even got together and wrote up a list of recomendations to try and fix it, only problem most of the recomendations were written with there benefit in mind, they even came up with ways to penalize a small club with limited recources and grounds. I don't believe there is a good answer but to stick you head in the sand and do nothing isn't the answer either... And if it doesn't continue to be brought up that's exactly what will happen...


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## Matt McKenzie

Some of you should be embarrassed but aren't. Regardless of how you feel about AKC, Master tests, limited entries, the MN or pros in hunt tests, speaking disrespectfully about Ray Shanks is disgusting and anyone who knows him would agree.


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## Granddaddy

Todd Caswell said:


> I'm sure he is hard working and a heck of a good guy, this really isn't about an individual it's about a system that isn't working and a group of people that continue to take advantage of it, they know there is a problem , they even got together and wrote up a list of recomendations to try and fix it, only problem most of the recomendations were written with there benefit in mind, they even came up with ways to penalize a small club with limited recources and grounds. I don't believe there is a good answer but to stick you head in the sand and do nothing isn't the answer either... And if it doesn't continue to be brought up that's exactly what will happen...


Todd, the change that precipitated the issues you have described related to limited entries actually fixed a problem for clubs that were overwhelmed with unlimited entries routinely exceeding club resources under then current AKC rules. Clubs had no recourse to limit entries under the AKC rules at that time. That problem persisted for a considerable period but didn't receive the public criticism you have expressed here because it likely didn't affect you as a potential participant as you were able to enter any event at your leisure without having to worry if the field was filled. After a considerable process the rule was changed to allow clubs to offer a limited master stake & virtually all folks that volunteered their time to work at the HTs applauded the change. Unfortunately fallout related to the change has created a situation that some feel isn't fair - while I suspect the real issue is that some folks don't care how difficult it is for clubs to host an event & even more difficult to host an event not knowing the potential number of entries the club might have to manage. Nonetheless, the change was a good one for the clubs & enabled clubs to put on a quality HT that fit within their ability to function due to land limitations, judges availability, adequate birds & labor, etc. The fallout is that those that want to enter events have to now be alert more than ever to make sure they enter before the field is filled. And the "limitation" aspect by its very nature will leave some folks disappointed if they didn't get to enter the event. Further by allowing limitations on entries there will always be some who are disappointed. The AKC, the HTRAC, the clubs & Entry Express all recognize that some refinement of the entry process for limited master stakes would help & all of those parties are working on modifications that will help alleviate some of the fallout issue. But there is a process and within the process it works best to be thoughtful to consider and implement the best modifications for all parties involved, including you as an entrant, the clubs & the AKC, to insure the event is the best it can be for the greatest number of folks possible. I think everyone is working to that end. Be patient, the process is working & no one is sticking their head in the sand - and frankly continued complaining on RTF won't advance the process at all. If you want to be sure your voice is heard, contact your local club officials if they hold limited master stakes. That is the best way to influence the eventual modifications & to expedite the process.


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## Todd Caswell

Granddaddy said:


> Todd, the change that precipitated the issues you have described related to limited entries actually fixed a problem for clubs that were overwhelmed with unlimited entries routinely exceeding club resources under then current AKC rules. Clubs had no recourse to limit entries under the AKC rules at that time. That problem persisted for a considerable period but didn't receive the public criticism you have expressed here because it likely didn't affect you as a potential participant as you were able to enter any event at your leisure without having to worry if the field was filled. After a considerable process the rule was changed to allow clubs to offer a limited master stake & virtually all folks that volunteered their time to work at the HTs applauded the change. Unfortunately fallout related to the change has created a situation that some feel isn't fair - while I suspect the real issue is that some folks don't care how difficult it is for clubs to host an event & even more difficult to host an event not knowing the potential number of entries the club might have to manage. Nonetheless, the change was a good one for the clubs & enabled clubs to put on a quality HT that fit within their ability to function due to land limitations, judges availability, adequate birds & labor, etc. The fallout is that those that want to enter events have to now be alert more than ever to make sure they enter before the field is filled. And the "limitation" aspect by its very nature will leave some folks disappointed if they didn't get to enter the event. Further by allowing limitations on entries there will always be some who are disappointed. The AKC, the HTRAC, the clubs & Entry Express all recognize that some refinement of the entry process for limited master stakes would help & all of those parties are working on modifications that will help alleviate some of the fallout issue. But there is a process and within the process it works best to be thoughtful to consider and implement the best modifications for all parties involved, including you as an entrant, the clubs & the AKC, to insure the event is the best it can be for the greatest number of folks possible. I think everyone is working to that end. Be patient, the process is working & no one is sticking their head in the sand - and frankly continued complaining on RTF won't advance the process at all. If you want to be sure your voice is heard, contact your local club officials if they hold limited master stakes. That is the best way to influence the eventual modifications & to expedite the process.


I was refering to this letter submitted a couple months ago.. # 12 kinda sums it up for me

RE: Suggestions for the limited entries problem.
iation

*1) Reduce the miles for Non-Compete clause. Let test compete with each other for entries. That has been very effective for field trials.

2) 75 Dog limit minimum (from 60) allowing a Club to also limit Seniors & Juniors. This will protect them from having spilt to Senior & Juniors. 

3) Allow clubs to also limit the Seniors & Juniors, this will allow a club to use higher limits on Master stakes. 

4) Allow a Club to host a 3 rd event each year. Currently clubs can offer a Junior and Senior event only. Allow this 3 d event to be a Master only or a combination of Master and/or Junior & Seniors.

5) Require Entry Express to post date & time that a test will open up (at least two weeks prior to the closing date. (No MIDNIGHT openings). Suggest all events limited or not, have a standardized opening time of 7:00 PM in the time zone the event is being held. Also ask that openings be no more than 30 days in advance. 

6) Allow clubs that have opened and filled up to add additional test or flights before the closing. 

7) Ask Entry Express to continue accepting entries after an event is filled for the purpose of creating a secondary list. This list will be used to auto-fill any scratches that may occur and will become the first entries accepted should a club decide to add another flight. 

8) Ask Club and Entry Express to move closing time to Noon, 1 PM or 2 PM. (To make sure Entry Express is open to make scratches so other people can enter).

9) Ask Club to include on application the past three years numbers. (ie: 2010: Masters (197); Seniors (49); and Juniors (35); 2011: Masters (157); Seniors (45); and Juniors (36). 2012: Masters (187); Seniors (35); and Juniors (39).

10) Require the club provide a short description of the land and water they have available for their event. This may include acreage and type and number of ponds available. If club is asking for a limited entry on their application, define limitations. i.e: available acreage, lack of suitable water, lack of help, etc. 

11) Any Doubleheader Master’s may NOT start on the same day.

12) Clubs that choose to limit entries. The mileage compete will be taken away. Also required to pay the AKC per dog rate as follows. 60 Dog Limit will be $ 18.00 Per dog. 120 Dog Limit $ 9.00 Per dog. 180 Dog limit will $ 6.00 Per Dog. 240 Dog limit $ 4.50 Per Dog. No limit (as it is now) $ 3.50.

Respectfully submitted,
Lyle Steinman
Jack Morris
Ray Shanks
Doug Shade
Proud members of The Professional Retriever Training Assoc
*


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## Dave Kress

Well said David (#117). Some believe a solution to the changes of limited entry is in the works, the Rhtac group is seeking solution and i believe those at EE are in contact with the Rhtac and Akc. 
Additional programing with have a cost! 

I for one have faith and trust that those in the lead are interested in the sport and they will a solution although i hope its sooner rather than later. 
Dk


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## John Kelder

Matt McKenzie said:


> Some of you should be embarrassed but aren't. Regardless of how you feel about AKC, Master tests, limited entries, the MN or pros in hunt tests, speaking disrespectfully about Ray Shanks is disgusting and anyone who knows him would agree.


Yup , Ray is a good person , impressed me when I met him . And wish more folks in the game were like him


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## John Kelder

Granddaddy said:


> Maybe simple for you as an entrant but much more involved for the club secretary who had to type up a premium, send out entry forms, answer multiple phone calls daily leading up to the event, receive the entries, deposit the checks, develop a running order & have the running order printed, then cross-off the entries for checks that bounced, answer numerous phone calls about directions & confirm whether entries were received, etc, etc. No this is a much better process & limited entry rules for master tests just need to be further refined. No jumping through hoops required, just be alert to when entries are being accepted - and the club won't be looking for a new secretary for every event.


excuse me for enjoying a simpler time . Only an idiot would not recognize how much easier the secretaries job is thanks to EE .the secretaries job was passed around like a flaming baton before Al Gore gave us this internet thingy . Very succinct when you say the the rules need to be further refined without providing a viable solution .........I would go on but the janitor has better things to do than remind me of what mamma taught me regards .....


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## dgreenwell

Labs said:


> When there are tests with more than one flight, clients running their own dogs put the pro's name down too so they can be in the same flight together...


Some us do that so that we can help those busy pros.


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## Tater 7

Granddaddy said:


> Just so you know, I am speaking for EE & anytime there is software code programming involved which your suggestions would require, it is difficult & costly. Beyond the s/w programing, you have the issue of owners who are amateurs entering & then having pros running the dogs, so you have accomplished nothing - and you give the club something else to regulate when the clubs consist of volunteers that have too much to do already in hosting an event.



There has to be a simple solution through entry express. As for amateurs entering and the pros running them, that would not be an issue as the owner or another amateur must be listed. At the amount of money entry express makes off of the many times people enter events, I'm sure they could afford to update the site if the people or clubs started demanding it


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## Ray Shanks

The post I made last night about some people view a glass half full not half empty, can never be truer. I spoke with numerous people about this thread today. Some conversations where hostile but most were very supportive and constructive. Believe it or not I visited with friends I haven't heard from in a while as well as made new ones because of this thread. WHEN PEOPLE PUT EFFORT TO SOLVE PROBLEMS INSTEAD OF JUST BITCHING; PROGRESS IS MADE. I SPOKE TO DAN SAYLES WITH WEST CENTRAL MINNESOTA RC AND WAS TOLD THAT AKC IS ALLOWING THEM TO ADD ANOTHER FLIGHT. THIS PROCESS WILL TAKE A FEW DAYS FOR APPROVAL. I can't THANK the West Central RC enough to take on this challenge. Please come support their additional flight. THANKS AGAIN WEST CENTRAL!!


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## DManey

Ray, hopefully me and Timber will be able to finish his title this fall.
If you are there and I can help you have my support!


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## Dave Kress

Great for West Central Minnesota, nice grounds and good folks 
Dk


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## Granddaddy

John Kelder said:


> excuse me for enjoying a simpler time . Only an idiot would not recognize how much easier the secretaries job is thanks to EE .the secretaries job was passed around like a flaming baton before Al Gore gave us this internet thingy . Very succinct when you say the the rules need to be further refined without providing a viable solution .........I would go on but the janitor has better things to do than remind me of what mamma taught me regards .....


Personally, I didn't enjoy the "simpler time" where I had to fill out a paper entry for each of my dogs & was dependent upon a timely mail delivery to reach a club secretary before a closing date to make sure I was actually entered. Times have never been simpler or easier for an enthusiast to enter an AKC dog event than right now & the AKC HT game has never had so much interest - sounds pretty good for the game to me. And BTW, see post #56, where I offered a solution...........


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## paul young

I see post #70 got no traction, either.....Go figure....-Paul


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## Madluke

paul young said:


> Limited entries are not the problem.
> Pros are not the problem.
> The way Entry Express does business is not the problem.
> The Master National is not the problem.
> 
> The problem is HOW DOGS GET QUALIFIED to run the Master National. It SHOULD NOT BE based on how many weekend tests the dog qualifies in during a 12 month period. It SHOULD BE based on passing a REGIONAL QUALIFIER TEST WITH NO ENTRY LIMIT (1 in each region) ORGANIZED BY THE MNRC. The dog COULD run all 4 in order to punch their ticket. The tests SHOULD BE more difficult, while within the regulations and guidelines and SHOULD BE judged by past Master National judges and the bar raised. For example, an average of 8.0 instead of 7.0.-Paul


You are exactly right! What we need is a rule change. AKC changed to allow limited entries now MN must change the prerequisite as you clearly point out taking all of the pressure off local venues.

What is the MNRC position on changing the qualifying rules? Does anyone know? 

Jim Bevere


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## labraiser

Madluke said:


> You are exactly right! What we need is a rule change. AKC changed to allow limited entries now MN must change the prerequisite as you clearly point out taking all of the pressure off local venues.
> 
> What is the MNRC position on changing the qualifying rules? Does anyone know?
> 
> Jim Bevere


We have a 60 limit MH test in the northeast, filled in 30min of opening. The test is in August. Thanks to MN this is how all of them will be. I know of people who were willing to work, but could not get in. So now they aren't going to work. They weren't even club members. So I see a problem of members being shut out and not being motivated to work. Something has to change!


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## Ray Shanks

labraiser said:


> We have a 60 limit MH test in the northeast, filled in 30min of opening. The test is in August. Thanks to MN this is how all of them will be. I know of people who were willing to work, but could not get in. So now they aren't going to work. They weren't even club members. So I see a problem of members being shut out and not being motivated to work. Something has to change!


Labraiser

Is it possible for you to talk with those club members and add another flight? West Central did this yesterday with there Fall test. If grounds are limited ask the judges to rotate through the test. Its not a perfect situation but it would allow 60 more dogs a chance at a ribbon.


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## Brandoned

Oh wow! I haven’t read through all 13 pages of this, I scanned through and read enough. I have only been around Ray a handful of times over the years, but I will say they don’t come any better than Ray! I remember watching Ray, David Didier’s son and another guy sit out in the blazing heat and pouring rain at many of the Atlanta FT's shooting flyers all day long. Never came in, complained or anything. They did this to help the club out, none of them were running dogs at the FT. So when people beat up on Ray, I just laugh because Ray bust his tail to help out, even when it is not his club! 

What little I know about HT, yes there is a problem. However how can you blame a pro that makes his/her living for entering as soon as they can? Yes it stinks for the club members and other Am’s, but what can anyone do about it right now? Is a pro supposed to just sit out that weekend and not run his/her dogs to try and get them qualified, or simply do what the clients pay them to do? I am glad to see that Dan Sayles, yet another pro that works his butt off at trials, got things worked out. 

It also amazes me how some of the ones stirring the pot have zero plans of even running this or any of the HT they complain about, they had rather hide behind a keyboard under a user name and stir the pot…


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## Madluke

Ray Shanks said:


> Labraiser
> 
> Is it possible for you to talk with those club members and add another flight? West Central did this yesterday with there Fall test. If grounds are limited ask the judges to rotate through the test. Its not a perfect situation but it would allow 60 more dogs a chance at a ribbon.


Adding a flight will not change nor solve the problem. As Labraiser states the filling of tests within the first day will plague us all. We need to push MNRC for the change that is necessary!

" Real meaningful change will not occur until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing "
Anthony Robbins

I think we are all feeling that pain and it's only going to get worse as Labraiser pointed out.

Jim Bevere


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## Matt McKenzie

Ray Shanks said:


> The post I made last night about some people view a glass half full not half empty, can never be truer. I spoke with numerous people about this thread today. Some conversations where hostile but most were very supportive and constructive. Believe it or not I visited with friends I haven't heard from in a while as well as made new ones because of this thread. WHEN PEOPLE PUT EFFORT TO SOLVE PROBLEMS INSTEAD OF JUST BITCHING; PROGRESS IS MADE. I SPOKE TO DAN SAYLES WITH WEST CENTRAL MINNESOTA RC AND WAS TOLD THAT AKC IS ALLOWING THEM TO ADD ANOTHER FLIGHT. THIS PROCESS WILL TAKE A FEW DAYS FOR APPROVAL. I can't THANK the West Central RC enough to take on this challenge. Please come support their additional flight. THANKS AGAIN WEST CENTRAL!!


Imagine that. The mean old pro actually took action and solved a problem rather than sitting around in front of a computer bitching.


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## paul young

Ray Shanks said:


> Labraiser
> 
> Is it possible for you to talk with those club members and add another flight? West Central did this yesterday with there Fall test. If grounds are limited ask the judges to rotate through the test. Its not a perfect situation but it would allow 60 more dogs a chance at a ribbon.


Ray,

That club has a very small membership and limited grounds. 

I know in your part of the world things are different, but up here, if not for the hospitality and generosity of ONE landowner, most of the southern New England clubs could not put on a quality HT. In fact, there would be no FT'S AT ALL. We are extremely appreciative of his support. 

State land is very limited and heavily utilized by pointing, spaniel and retriever clubs. federal flood control property that we used to have the use of has now been limited to an area that can only accommodate a single stake.-Paul


----------



## moscowitz

Just a matter of time when the help stop coming and everyone loses. Pros and amat need to work together to solve this problem if it can be solved. Field trials may make out in this dilemma since hunt test people will be forced into this venue especially with QAA being a title.


----------



## Rainmaker

There really wasn't any reason for anyone to get all huffy and make it personal. That some chose to do so, clouds the issue. I think the thread was meant to be an example of the issue we are having, with big trucks filling up the entries ASAP and some individuals not getting in, I didn't read it as an intention to smack Ray personally. Todd used this particular test because he had personal experience with it. Could just have easily used another one, but, bottom line, there are big pro trucks at them too, so it would have been taken personally by someone regardless.

It isn't anti pro. There is no need for a pro circuit, which is just foolish, considering the need for limited MH entries is lack of resources for some clubs in the first place. There's no need to pro bash or get all defensive. I don't think the people concerned with this issue are afraid to run their dogs against pro-trained dogs either, or want to exclude pros. Ray's a good guy, most who know him, know how hard he works, and, I've run under him multiple times, he's a good, fun judge. I have lots of pros as friends. All my dogs are pro trained. Pro vs Am is not the issue. *Getting a fair shake at entering, is the issue. * 

Yeah, it's great the game is so popular that we have these issues. Except, when I first started, the JH and SH entries were much bigger, there were many more families and I knew a lot of people. Now, it's about the MH and generally, that's for breeding, and extrapolate that out to the Master National, I guess. I've never cared, run or had any interest in the Master National. Whatever the reason, people want MH titles with whatever the new thing is, MH27 or whatever. But, the current status sucks for the average person that works a regular job, can't be at a computer 24/7 waiting on some mystery opening. That isn't me, I have access, I'm not chained to a job, I get my dogs in. But I still think it sucks. The appearance of the pro trucks getting all their dogs in, whether listed as handler or co-handler, within minutes of a club opening, raises questions with many. Right or wrong, that's the appearance. Clubs need the pro entries, of course they do. Many pros are very involved, very hard working. 

But I do not understand the mystery of the opening day/time. Why it can't just be published so everyone knows it. Give everyone the same chance to be at the keyboard and may the fastest fingers win. Give the clubs the option of holding spaces for workers if they desire. If they don't, that's fine and their choice. That's all it is for me, and for most that I know who are having problems getting in. A fair shot at getting in. Yeah yeah, life ain't fair, suck it up, whatever. But sometimes, a little effort goes a long way to appeasing the poor foolish peons who continue to want to run their own dog. We don't need patronizing or a pat on the head, telling us things will get better, the adults are working on the problem, hush now. We really don't.


----------



## DRAKEHAVEN

Todd Caswell said:


> I'm sure he is hard working and a heck of a good guy, this really isn't about an individual it's about a system that isn't working and a group of people that continue to take advantage of it, they know there is a problem , they even got together and wrote up a list of recomendations to try and fix it, only problem most of the recomendations were written with there benefit in mind, they even came up with ways to penalize a small club with limited recources and grounds. I don't believe there is a good answer but to stick you head in the sand and do nothing isn't the answer either... And if it doesn't continue to be brought up that's exactly what will happen...


Ray Shanks or Lyle Stienman or Jack Morris are not taking advantage of the "the system" any more than Billy Sargenti, Dave Rorem, or Mark Mosher did or do. At least there is a system to give clubs the ability to not overtax the members who work these events. When will we limit an Open ? 
Even though the last thing I want to do is watch 3 series of quack quack bang bang with fat guys hiding in bushes throwing bird directly at each other I would do that any day before ill sit in the chair all day throw birds so Kippy Swingle's 20 dogs can run !!! The Amateur sure anyday. The Open so absentee owners who have NEVER thrown a bird at a trial can have another 6 dogs at the National Open, **** **** !!!!!!! 
My clubs Hunt Test is partially being held on my property and 6 weeks before the close I can not get a dog in the master. Club members (paid members) who work all 2 or 3 days of the Hunt Test or trial should not be subject to the limit rule and should get 1 FREE entry. This is something that I recommended our club do. Why the hell should a member of any club who works the events pay to do so for their dog ?? 
This is based on the 1 guy 1 dog theory (Bob Zylla/NFC Pete)


----------



## Wade Thurman

Brandoned said:


> It also amazes me how some of the ones stirring the pot have zero plans of even running this or any of the HT they complain about, they had rather hide behind a keyboard under a user name and stir the pot…


HUH?

Debate/conversation is a good thing rather than the status quo. I don't believe this thread was started to point out the indiscretions of a said pro however to discuss how one individual can take up over half of the entries at any particular HT. In this incident it just happens to be, for all accounts, a very nice man from a different part of the country. 
I know the OP, he has the heart of gold. I do not believe for one second his intent was to tarnish the reputation of another human being but only to bring attention a growing problem in the HT arena according to a lot of HTers.


----------



## DarrinGreene

Part of the issue in the north east with grounds is that people aren't accustomed to traveling long distances (so much) to get to tests. Where I am I have 8 or more opportunities close enough to home to commute (I didn't count exact numbers but there are a pile). 

Elsewhere in the country a 4 hour drive isn't really considered out of the ordinary. 

If the NE participants thought that way properties in NY, DE and MD would be more practical...


----------



## Quacktastic

Todd Caswell said:


> Hmmm, acually when this club was looking at having a HT I was called and informed of it back in Feb. told them that I would come out run my dogs and spend the weekend working, Iv'e judged for them (FT) on three occasions, the club is very small I know most of them and consider them good friends, when it opened I was informed, work got in the way and wasn't able to get to a computer, when I was able there was 1 spot left ( Iv'e got 2 dogs) oh well. As I was thinking about it from a running stand point I really didn't want to be part of it, I don't care what anone says from a logistics stand point it's going to be a mess, but you know what I'm still going to go and help for a day because I said I would, and I'll bet I will have a chance to run both my dogs as bydog if needed.. And no I wasn't picking a fight, if I had been picking a fight I would have been more blunt and to the point..
> 
> And speaking of hiding behind a keyboard, do I know you?? I can't seen to recognize you by your SCREEN NAME..



Some people in life always have an excuse for everything Todd. Others have sour grapes when they don't get what they want. Some seem to have both...

Bill Crawford


----------



## Rainmaker

Awesome, Bill Crawford, glad you got your dog entered at Western, hope you're enjoying the wonderful northern summer and great club grounds up this way!


----------



## Brandoned

Wade said:


> HUH?
> 
> Debate/conversation is a good thing rather than the status quo. I don't believe this thread was started to point out the indiscretions of a said pro however to discuss how one individual can take up over half of the entries at any particular HT. In this incident it just happens to be, for all accounts, a very nice man from a different part of the country.
> I know the OP, he has the heart of gold. I do not believe for one second his intent was to tarnish the reputation of another human being but only to bring attention a growing problem in the HT arena according to a lot of HTers.


Wade, I wasn’t actually referring to the person that started the thread. I was referring to some of the others that always seem to chime in on everything…


----------



## RookieTrainer

Making the date and time known will help, because right now there are some who know and some who don't, and I have been on both sides of that. But if it takes two guys the same time to enter 30 dogs each as it takes me to enter one dog, the potential problem is still there. Note that this is in no way a comment on how many dogs any one person should enter or run. If they have to enter them one at the time like I do how could I credibly complain that the entry process was not about as fair as it could get?



Granddaddy said:


> That was the point of the comment I made. Let everyone who is interested have an equal opportunity to enter by making the date & time known when entries would be opened. As you said, seems fair to me.


----------



## Granddaddy

paul young said:


> I see post #70 got no traction, either.....Go figure....-Paul


Paul,

Apparently Paul, some folks would prefer to complain rather than discuss the possible solutions. Don't know exactly what the MN is planning but I know first hand that some modifications are coming that will help alleviate the entry issues associated with the AKC limited master. But some folks will still complain that they can't enter the hour before the close. However, all should realize that by the very nature of "limited", that entries will be limited & not everyone who wants to enter will get entered. So rather than complain, the bottom line solution is for the handler that really want to enter his/her dog to be alert to when entries open & get their entry done. Part of the solution coming will be to standardize when entries will be opened for all HTs with a limited master. So there will be no excuse other than the priority a handler puts on getting entered. But experience tells me some folks will still complain & they love a forum like this so they can to a wide audience.


----------



## Granddaddy

RookieTrainer said:


> Making the date and time known will help, because right now there are some who know and some who don't, and I have been on both sides of that. But if it takes two guys the same time to enter 30 dogs each as it takes me to enter one dog, the potential problem is still there. Note that this is in no way a comment on how many dogs any one person should enter or run. If they have to enter them one at the time like I do how could I credibly complain that the entry process was not about as fair as it could get?


No one can enter multiple dogs in the same time it takes to enter one dog. So if you really want to get your dog entered & there is a standardized entry opening for a limited master you will have an equal opportunity to enter & a distinct advantage over the pro or amateur handler with multiple dogs to get your dog entered in any event you want to enter. Just be patient the modifications are coming, unfortunately nothing that places importance on regulations happens overnight.


----------



## Tater 7

whats the difference in sending in 30 applications verse your 1 applications like when they had to mail in the premiums? just because he has to take more time to enter his dogs does not make it fair IMO. I think entry express made it much easier, costly, and efficient to allow people to enter as many dogs as the want with the click of a button. I don't think this should change


----------



## dlsweep

Rainmaker said:


> There really wasn't any reason for anyone to get all huffy and make it personal. That some chose to do so, clouds the issue. I think the thread was meant to be an example of the issue we are having, with big trucks filling up the entries ASAP and some individuals not getting in, I didn't read it as an intention to smack Ray personally. Todd used this particular test because he had personal experience with it. Could just have easily used another one, but, bottom line, there are big pro trucks at them too, so it would have been taken personally by someone regardless.
> 
> It isn't anti pro. There is no need for a pro circuit, which is just foolish, considering the need for limited MH entries is lack of resources for some clubs in the first place. There's no need to pro bash or get all defensive. I don't think the people concerned with this issue are afraid to run their dogs against pro-trained dogs either, or want to exclude pros. Ray's a good guy, most who know him, know how hard he works, and, I've run under him multiple times, he's a good, fun judge. I have lots of pros as friends. All my dogs are pro trained. Pro vs Am is not the issue. *Getting a fair shake at entering, is the issue. *
> 
> Yeah, it's great the game is so popular that we have these issues. Except, when I first started, the JH and SH entries were much bigger, there were many more families and I knew a lot of people. Now, it's about the MH and generally, that's for breeding, and extrapolate that out to the Master National, I guess. I've never cared, run or had any interest in the Master National. Whatever the reason, people want MH titles with whatever the new thing is, MH27 or whatever. But, the current status sucks for the average person that works a regular job, can't be at a computer 24/7 waiting on some mystery opening. That isn't me, I have access, I'm not chained to a job, I get my dogs in. But I still think it sucks. The appearance of the pro trucks getting all their dogs in, whether listed as handler or co-handler, within minutes of a club opening, raises questions with many. Right or wrong, that's the appearance. Clubs need the pro entries, of course they do. Many pros are very involved, very hard working.
> 
> But I do not understand the mystery of the opening day/time. Why it can't just be published so everyone knows it. Give everyone the same chance to be at the keyboard and may the fastest fingers win. Give the clubs the option of holding spaces for workers if they desire. If they don't, that's fine and their choice. That's all it is for me, and for most that I know who are having problems getting in. A fair shot at getting in. Yeah yeah, life ain't fair, suck it up, whatever. But sometimes, a little effort goes a long way to appeasing the poor foolish peons who continue to want to run their own dog. We don't need patronizing or a pat on the head, telling us things will get better, the adults are working on the problem, hush now. We really don't.


Well said Kim.

Our choice to add another flight was not easy. We were bummed out that members from the clubs adjacent to WCMRC were unable to enter. Hopefully they will now have a chance.

We all share quite a bit in common. And I'll add that it is entirely possible that people with much in common can disagree on an issue without being disagreeable. No need to make it personal. We want to have a good event with good participation. The sport cannot survive without broad participation, and the ability to share limited volunteer resources. My hope is that the members of the RHTAC are aware of the problem and are working towards a solution.

Damon Sweep


----------



## Quacktastic

Rainmaker said:


> Awesome, Bill Crawford, glad you got your dog entered at Western, hope you're enjoying the wonderful northern summer and great club grounds up this way!



Unfortunately, Im enjoying the sweltering heat of the south. I wish we had your cool temperatures. I'm glad we got my dog signed up for the event as well. We are looking forward to him doing well at the test.


----------



## dlsweep

Bill,

I look forward to meeting you at our event. I can assure you that Todd is a great help to many clubs. Those of us who quitely go about putting on these events really appreciate folks like Todd. To which club do you belong? I'm sure they are greatfull for your help as well. Again, I think we can disagree without being disagreeable.

See you in August.

Damon Sweep


----------



## i_willie12

Ray Shanks said:


> Labraiser
> 
> Is it possible for you to talk with those club members and add another flight? West Central did this yesterday with there Fall test. If grounds are limited ask the judges to rotate through the test. Its not a perfect situation but it would allow 60 more dogs a chance at a ribbon.





Madluke said:


> Adding a flight will not change nor solve the problem. As Labraiser states the filling of tests within the first day will plague us all. We need to push MNRC for the change that is necessary!
> 
> Jim Bevere


^^This Adding more flights doesnt fix stuff!!! Makes it worse If clubs dont have enough help to run 2 flights you think they will for 3??!! How many acreas you need to run 3 flights at once?? A lot..


----------



## Bubba

Adding a flight is not an option for a LOT of clubs. Even for the ones that DO elect to add a flight- what if you only get 4 more entries? Just turned a PITA into a PITA with a financial train wreck.

Easier said than done regards

Bubba


----------



## mjh345

Matt McKenzie said:


> Some of you should be embarrassed but aren't. Regardless of how you feel about AKC, Master tests, limited entries, the MN or pros in hunt tests, speaking disrespectfully about Ray Shanks is disgusting and anyone who knows him would agree.


Show me where I, or anyone talked disrespectfully about Ray. Ray's name was mentioned and was used as an example of what some view as unfairness in the current system; wherein one person can enter 33 or more dogs in a limited MH test while other people can't even get one dog entered
Maybe it is you who should be embarrassed about your lack of reading comprehension


----------



## Jeff Huntington

Amen, but difficult to monitor and make consistent.


----------



## Granddaddy

mjh345 said:


> Show me where I, or anyone talked disrespectfully about Ray. Ray's name was mentioned and was used as an example of what some view as unfairness in the current system;* wherein one person can enter 33 or more dogs in a limited MH test while other people can't even get one dog entered*
> Maybe it is you who should be embarrassed about your lack of reading comprehension


Let's be accurate & put the emotion aside. It is not possible that one person can enter 30+ dogs before another can enter one dog. But if 60 individuals are alert & enter one dog each, you still won't get entered in a limited master if you aren't ready to enter when the event is opened. AND ONE MORE TIME FOR THOSE THAT SEEM TO IGNORE PREVIOUS POSTS, A CHANGE IS COMING THAT WILL STANDARDIZE EVENT OPENINGS THAT HAVE A LIMITED MASTER SO THAT EVERYONE WILL HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ENTER.


----------



## wojo

I am so disappointed that on this forum a stand up individual would get trashed. I know Ray and he has contributed more than all but a few on the site. Have you no shame. Ray is the kind of Pro that brings more than he takes. I also know many of his clients and MANY set up and contribute at every test. This has become a sport of the negative and winners. I am a amateur and will sign up and run in a flight that Ray is in any time . This is America and we in the past did not look down on success that was earned by hard work. We have a minor problem ,I agree. But you do not fix success with cutting back on capacity. What has happened to us???? The Master Natioal is the culprit how??? Because they are success full? that's Obama thinking. That some how if you have a se


----------



## Madluke

Granddaddy said:


> Let's be accurate & put the emotion aside. It is not possible that one person can enter 30+ dogs before another can enter one dog. But if 60 individuals are alert & enter one dog each, you still won't get entered in a limited master if you aren't ready to enter when the event is opened. AND ONE MORE TIME FOR THOSE THAT SEEM TO IGNORE PREVIOUS POSTS, A CHANGE IS COMING THAT WILL STANDARDIZE EVENT OPENINGS THAT HAVE A LIMITED MASTER SO THAT EVERYONE WILL HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO ENTER.


Granddaddy can you enlighten us as to when that change may happen or be shared ?

Going forward can we leave Ray out of this. He just happened to be the example and an unfortunate one at that. Clearly, he's a great guy. However, the OP has hit the nail on the head showcasing the problem. Focus on solving the problem for it has little to do with the players and everything to do with MNRC changing the qualifying requirements as Paul succinctly stated in post 70.

Jim Bevere


----------



## Dale

All I can say is this didn't happen as much before limited entry. I will also guess that there junior and senior enties will be very low.


----------



## Granddaddy

Madluke said:


> Granddaddy can you enlighten us as to when that change may happen or be shared ?
> 
> Going forward can we leave Ray out of this. He just happened to be the example and an unfortunate one at that. Clearly, he's a great guy. However, the OP has hit the nail on the head showcasing the problem. Focus on solving the problem for it has little to do with the players and everything to do with MNRC changing the qualifying requirements as Paul succinctly stated in post 70.
> 
> Jim Bevere


Unfortunately I don't have a date but IMO it will come sooner rather than later. The idea seems to have the agreement of all decision-makers but the implementation depends upon first getting the AKC go-ahead. Once that is obtained, it will be implemented immediately. As for the MNRC, they have nothing to do with AKC rules directly & they have nothing to do with a standardized open time & date for weekend AKC HTs. I clearly understand that qualification requirements for the MN are the driver behind the issue & that is a MN decision unrelated directly to a standardized opening for HTs with limited master stakes.


----------



## Rick_C

jacduck said:


> I still maintain the answer is a pro circuit and an amateur circuit. Let those that profit pay for the cost of an event upfront not relying on clubs to bankroll thier income.


I don't know what club(s) you belong to but the ones I belonged to would have lost money if it weren't for pro entries. The whole argument that the pro's are the problem just speaks to the ignorance of the people typing such nonsense. 




JamesTannery said:


> He must be good!


This was my first thought.



Quacktastic said:


> Some of you would complain about winning the lottery...


So. Damned. True.


----------



## wheelhorse

The simplest way to handle this is allow only the owner to enter the dog.

Of course, a lot pros will end of being co-owners of a lot of dogs as everyone continues to game the system.


----------



## Bill Cummins Jr.

DarrinGreene said:


> Part of the issue in the north east with grounds is that people aren't accustomed to traveling long distances (so much) to get to tests. Where I am I have 8 or more opportunities close enough to home to commute (I didn't count exact numbers but there are a pile).
> 
> Elsewhere in the country a 4 hour drive isn't really considered out of the ordinary.
> 
> If the NE participants thought that way properties in NY, DE and MD would be more practical...


 Here in Central Okla., I have one test that's one hour away. EVERYTHING else is 3-4 hrs., or more away! Just the way it is. Saddle Up !!

Bill


----------



## Wade Thurman

Rick_C said:


> I don't know what club(s) you belong to but the ones I belonged to would have lost money if it weren't for pro entries. The whole argument that the pro's are the problem just speaks to the ignorance of the people typing such nonsense.
> 
> How about this new and different idea.
> 
> You own the dog, you run the dog at the FT or the HT. Leave the Pro back at the ranch to train.
> 
> Just think how much more fun each individual owner would have playing the game they signed up for to play!!!!!


----------



## Thomas D

Several comments 
Ray has already posted that while his name might be on 30 dogs, he is handling 13. However, his name keeps being brought up as the person who caused this discussion. 
It isn't always a case that once qualified a dog stops running weekend tests. In fact many keep running. This further clogs the weekend tests for those not yet qualified. Not saying right or wrong, but just the way it is. 

I would imagine opening dates will soon be posted on EE. Certainly a step in the right direction.


----------



## 2tall

Wade said:


> Rick_C said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what club(s) you belong to but the ones I belonged to would have lost money if it weren't for pro entries. The whole argument that the pro's are the problem just speaks to the ignorance of the people typing such nonsense.
> 
> How about this new and different idea.
> 
> You own the dog, you run the dog at the FT or the HT. Leave the Pro back at the ranch to train.
> 
> Just think how much more fun each individual owner would have playing the game they signed up for to play!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Woo Hoo!!!!!
Click to expand...


----------



## Mike Peters-labguy23

Wade said:


> Rick_C said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what club(s) you belong to but the ones I belonged to would have lost money if it weren't for pro entries. The whole argument that the pro's are the problem just speaks to the ignorance of the people typing such nonsense.
> 
> How about this new and different idea.
> 
> You own the dog, you run the dog at the FT or the HT. Leave the Pro back at the ranch to train.
> 
> Just think how much more fun each individual owner would have playing the game they signed up for to play!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose my pro could take my sons to baseball all summer and I can then run my dogs
Click to expand...


----------



## Bubba

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> Wade said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose my pro could take my sons to baseball all summer and I can then run my dogs
> 
> 
> 
> Life is all about choices.
> 
> Priorities regards
> 
> Bubba
Click to expand...


----------



## krapwxman

Bill Cummins Jr. said:


> Here in Central Okla., I have one test that's one hour away. EVERYTHING else is 3-4 hrs., or more away! Just the way it is. Saddle Up !!
> 
> Bill


Try western South Dakota where our nearest test is 5+ hours away. In addition, our test is June 28-29, and Minot's double master is the next weekend, all with openings. So how about everyone pull up their big boy britches and drive a little further than you'd like. As Bill said...saddle up.


----------



## brsutton86

Kinda off subject and im new to the games. But whats the point of having a dog and getting it titled if you didnt train, or even handle it. Where does anyone get pride in that. If you learn to handle it, sure your doing your part. But just having a pro do it all, wheres the joy or point? Every pro ive met has been helpful to me, nothing against them. I just don't get why someone wouldnt handle their own dog. This would solve the issue at hand as well.


----------



## james durfee

brsutton86 said:


> Kinda off subject and im new to the games. But whats the point of having a dog and getting it titled if you didnt train, or even handle it. Where does anyone get pride in that. If you learn to handle it, sure your doing your part. But just having a pro do it all, wheres the joy or point? Every pro ive met has been helpful to me, nothing against them. I just don't get why someone wouldnt handle their own dog. This would solve the issue at hand as well.


Just like people that buy trophy big game heads. Where is the pride in that, you didn't shoot it, or in this case, you didn't train/run the dog. All you did was provide money to the dog's training, not to mention fattened someone else's wallet.


----------



## BJGatley

Just a humble suggestion on my part…

Limit the number of entries a handler or co-handler can enter in one day on EE. That should give others a chance to enter their dog. Just a penny worth on my side….
I still do like the simple post card with a stamp and the anticipation on its return.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

Madluke said:


> Adding a flight will not change nor solve the problem. As Labraiser states the filling of tests within the first day will plague us all. We need to push MNRC for the change that is necessary!
> 
> 
> Jim Bevere


What change do you feel MNRC needs to make?

Adding more flights when there are a lot of dogs may help for that weekend, but it doesn't solve the issue long-term. Clubs just don't have unlimited grounds, equipment or help. And, the Master takes so much longer to complete than Senior or Junior so it ties up all the resources and exhausts the club members. In addition, many judges will only agree to judge a 30-dog Limited MH.


----------



## Kyle Bertram

I'm just hoping they allow the clubs a two hour window to allow workers in ahead of everyone. The club secretary could submit twenty names (not necessarily club members) when we set up the test on EE. These would be people that have agreed to work that particular test ahead of time. If someone logs in and tries to enter they are rejected unless their name matches.

As Hunt Test Chairman I would love twenty people calling to help.

Thank goodness in Atlanta we have a handful of dedicated people, but could always use more.


----------



## Rick_C

Wade said:


> How about this new and different idea.
> 
> You own the dog, you run the dog at the FT or the HT. Leave the Pro back at the ranch to train.
> 
> Just think how much more fun each individual owner would have playing the game they signed up for to play!!!!!





2tall said:


> Woo Hoo!!!!!


Well congrats to you two on your appointment to the dog owners police. 

While I very much enjoyed training and running my dog, I used a pro for basics and to day train with as well. If someone, for whatever reason, wants to send their dog to a pro and have that pro train and run them in whatever dog games, last I checked that's their right. Who the hell are you to judge them?


----------



## gdgnyc

Rick_C said:


> Well congrats to you two on your appointment to the dog owners police.
> 
> While I very much enjoyed training and running my dog, I used a pro for basics and to day train with as well. If someone, for whatever reason, wants to send their dog to a pro and have that pro train and run them in whatever dog games, last I checked that's their right. Who the hell are you to judge them?


Lighten up. That concept is not new. And at the start of Hunt Tests (NAHRA, the original) several of the founders didn't want pros in the game. They wanted a venue that was available to the regular guy/hunter that didn't have the time/money to train or the interest to train for field trials.


----------



## Wayne Nutt

I don't have a problem with pro trained dogs and even under certain circumstances the pro running the dog. There are always conflicts with work, illness, etc. But I think the owner should enter the dog and whenever possible actually run the dog. There is no competition in ht so I don't really have a problem with pros at all. They provide a valuable service and are a great asset to the retriever community.


----------



## TIM DOANE

gdgnyc said:


> Lighten up. That concept is not new. And at the start of Hunt Tests (NAHRA, the original) several of the founders didn't want pros in the game. They wanted a venue that was available to the regular guy/hunter that didn't have the time/money to train or the interest to train for field trials.


How did that work out?


----------



## suepuff

suepuff said:


> ....
> 
> What to do about MN? Go back to the 6 out of 8 passes like someone said. It wasn't an issue with tests filling to capacity quickly back then when that was the way to get qualified. To me, that makes it more challenging then just running repeatedly until you get your passes. 6 out of 8 shows consistency. Shouldn't the dogs running MN be the best of the best? If so, make the qualification hard. Right now, if you throw enough money at it, you can get the 5 or whatever passes you need. And that fills up tests for people that want to play the 'sport' and have fun with their dogs, family and friends.
> 
> I'm with Kim, except I won't be going over to FTs. I know I don't have the dogs with the capability to run at that high level, nor the money or time to play that game. And that's ok.
> 
> Sue Puff


Many comments were made about people bitching and not making suggestions. I made a complaint, but also put a resolution with it. See above. 

I am glad David that RHTC is working on a change. My suggestion for the limits is to have an opening time. At least then, those of us that have a busy life can schedule an entry. Also, have a wait list like we do in agility. I think we need the limits. 

BUT, if MN does nothing about their qualifications, nothing is going to be solved. It's going to take everyone involved to find a workable solution. 

I envy those of you that can work, train, manage a family, a home and get on the internet every 10 minutes to check test openings. That is absolutely unrealistic. But I guess if that's the wave of the future, so be it.

I am thrilled that we are seeing success in the sport. But it sure would be nice to see new people too. The lower stakes don't seem to be improving in entries. So is the success only coming in masters with people having all these advanced training skills and skipping junior and senior? I sure as he'll couldn't have started out at master. Even with using a pro. 

Sue Puff


----------



## gdgnyc

TIM DOANE said:


> How did that work out?


Not taking a position on this. I really don't care. Just giving some history. And when you get a chance, find some old timers and talk to them. Interesting chat for sure.


----------



## DoubleHaul

brsutton86 said:


> Kinda off subject and im new to the games. But whats the point of having a dog and getting it titled if you didnt train, or even handle it. Where does anyone get pride in that. If you learn to handle it, sure your doing your part. But just having a pro do it all, wheres the joy or point? Every pro ive met has been helpful to me, nothing against them. I just don't get why someone wouldnt handle their own dog. This would solve the issue at hand as well.


Did you build your car? Your house? Do you make your clothes? Grow your own food?

Everyone has choices to make in their lives and folks who choose to have a pro train and/or run their dogs don't need the sanctimonious and hypocritical to criticize theirs. It is entirely their choice and no worse than yours.


----------



## fishduck

Kyle Bertram said:


> I'm just hoping they allow the clubs a two hour window to allow workers in ahead of everyone. The club secretary could submit twenty names (not necessarily club members) when we set up the test on EE. These would be people that have agreed to work that particular test ahead of time. If someone logs in and tries to enter they are rejected unless their name matches.
> 
> As Hunt Test Chairman I would love twenty people calling to help.
> 
> Thank goodness in Atlanta we have a handful of dedicated people, but could always uOse more.


I like this idea. It would give those that work an atvantage when entering. Hopefully increase the worker pool to the point more flights could be added when workers are the limiting factor. 

More workers, more flights so more dogs run. Clubs are happy because their numbers grow. AKC is happy because of increased revenue. A win/win.

The hunt secretary & entry express will have more work but that is the only negative.


----------



## brsutton86

DoubleHaul said:


> Did you build your car? ? Do you make your clothes? Grow your own food?
> 
> Everyone has choices to make in their lives and folks who choose to have a pro train and/or run their dogs don't need the sanctimonious and hypocritical to criticize theirs. It is entirely their choice and no worse than yours.


Actually I did build alot of my house. and I can do the maintenance myself. Also know how to handle my truck and do the maintenance. I don't pay someone to drive me or my kids around in a truck I bought. I also raise my own beef and veggies. You got me on the clothes. So back to my point now that your arguement made no sense. A dog is not to get to work or to eat to live. Not a necessity so to speak. So its for self pride and enjoyment. So wheres the enjoyment or pride if you do nothing but buy the dog and hang up the ribbons??? Thats a simple question you failed to answer. I never said anyone shouldnt be allowed to, i just dont see the point. So what is the point?

Edited to add: If a health issue prevents you from handling, that is a different story. I would never want anyone to be left out for a health issue.


----------



## DoubleHaul

brsutton86 said:


> Actually I did build alot of my house. and I can do the maintenance myself. Also know how to handle my truck and do the maintenance. I don't pay someone to drive me or my kids around in a truck I bought. I also raise my own beef and veggies. You got me on the clothes. So back to my point now that your arguement made no sense. A dog is not to get to work or to eat to live. Not a necessity so to speak. So its for self pride and enjoyment. So wheres the enjoyment or pride if you do nothing but buy the dog and hang up the ribbons??? Thats a simple question you failed to answer. I never said anyone shouldnt be allowed to, i just dont see the point. So what is the point?
> 
> Edited to add: If a health issue prevents you from handling, that is a different story. I would never want anyone to be left out for a health issue.


My point was that because somebody chooses to do something that is within the rules but is different from the way you choose to do it, you have no right to belittle their choices.

Lots of folks choose to use pros to train and run their dogs and frankly you deserve no explanation as to why. The choice is theirs. Many of these folks are there watching while working the trials and giving back to the sport way more than you can even imagine. You want to feel superior to them? Go ahead, if that is what it takes to stroke your ego, but you are dead wrong. They have their point. You have yours. Learn to live with the fact that folks have different ways of maximizing their own utility.


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## Wade Thurman

Rick_C said:


> Well congrats to you two on your appointment to the dog owners police.
> 
> While I very much enjoyed training and running my dog, I used a pro for basics and to day train with as well. If someone, for whatever reason, wants to send their dog to a pro and have that pro train and run them in whatever dog games, last I checked that's their right. Who the hell are you to judge them?


Rick,

No offense taken with your response. Using a Pro to TRAIN ones dog is one thing, hell most of us use one. However, when game time comes on Friday, Saturday or Sunday, how about the owner come out and play. If one can't make it to the weekend trial I get that but if that's not the case where is the fun in standing there watching someone else run YOUR dog? Hey, it's a free country, do whatever you please, that right there to me doesn't me sense though. Maybe if more people in the HT ran their own dog and entered their own dog it might help in situations like this thread is talking about with regards to entries.


----------



## DarrinGreene

Kyle Bertram said:


> The club secretary could submit twenty names (not necessarily club members) when we set up the test on EE.


You think people are mad now, do this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## bjoiner

DoubleHaul said:


> My point was that because somebody chooses to do something that is within the rules but is different from the way you choose to do it, you have no right to belittle their choices.
> 
> Lots of folks choose to use pros to train and run their dogs and frankly you deserve no explanation as to why. The choice is theirs. Many of these folks are there watching while working the trials and giving back to the sport way more than you can even imagine. You want to feel superior to them? Go ahead, if that is what it takes to stroke your ego, but you are dead wrong. They have their point. You have yours. Learn to live with the fact that folks have different ways of maximizing their own utility.


I will say I agree with this. I train my own, but others get just as much enjoyment watching their dog reach its maximum potential that they may not have the time or ability to do themselves. Makes them no better than me or me than them. I'm just glad they are in the game because I have made some great friends through it.


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## Kyle Bertram

DarrinGreene said:


> You think people are mad now, do this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Go ahead let them be mad.......and stay away if they wish. Clubs need help. I/we put on 6 events a year, judge 2 to 3 and often times work as my own setup crew while judging. So they will just have to suck it up and be mad!

Edited to stay with the post topic. 4 of the 6 events I/we host. Ray Shanks is running at least one of our flights in addition to being there for Fri setup!


----------



## brsutton86

DoubleHaul said:


> My point was that because somebody chooses to do something that is within the rules but is different from the way you choose to do it, you have no right to belittle their choices.
> 
> Lots of folks choose to use pros to train and run their dogs and frankly you deserve no explanation as to why. The choice is theirs. Many of these folks are there watching while working the trials and giving back to the sport way more than you can even imagine. You want to feel superior to them? Go ahead, if that is what it takes to stroke your ego, but you are dead wrong. They have their point. You have yours. Learn to live with the fact that folks have different ways of maximizing their own utility.


My original post was an actual question/point that you refuse to answer. No ego stroke to it. I know most people in the games will have a better dog than I for my newness to the sport and lack of experience. So theres no ego to it. Just a simple question. I have no doubt you love the sport, or you wouldn't be a forum member. If you or whoever is at the HT/FT helping out why wouldn't you want to handle? Honest question, no belittling or sarcasm. I could care less if a pro runs or trains any dog. Im just asking wheres the enjoyment?


----------



## nailbender

DoubleHaul said:


> My point was that because somebody chooses to do something that is within the rules but is different from the way you choose to do it, you have no right to belittle their choices.
> 
> Lots of folks choose to use pros to train and run their dogs and frankly you deserve no explanation as to why. The choice is theirs. Many of these folks are there watching while working the trials and giving back to the sport way more than you can even imagine. You want to feel superior to them? Go ahead, if that is what it takes to stroke your ego, but you are dead wrong. They have their point. You have yours. Learn to live with the fact that folks have different ways of maximizing their own utility.


Lighten up, Francis. This is a question that I am sure many are curious about, I know I was. Glad I didn't dare pose the question. Part of the beauty of this board is to get others points of view and ask questions. One person in the conversation asked a question, the other got all defensive and started pointing fingers and name calling. Chill out.



bjoiner said:


> I will say I agree with this. I train my own, but others get just as much enjoyment watching their dog reach its maximum potential that they may not have the time or ability to do themselves. Makes them no better than me or me than them. I'm just glad they are in the game because I have made some great friends through it.


This answers the question for me nicely, without panties getting all twisted up. Makes sense not to hold a great dog back with a crappy trainer or handler, like me!


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## Tater 7

suepuff said:


> Many comments were made about people bitching and not making suggestions. I made a complaint, but also put a resolution with it. See above.
> 
> I am glad David that RHTC is working on a change. My suggestion for the limits is to have an opening time. At least then, those of us that have a busy life can schedule an entry. Also, have a wait list like we do in agility. I think we need the limits.
> 
> BUT, if MN does nothing about their qualifications, nothing is going to be solved. It's going to take everyone involved to find a workable solution.
> 
> I envy those of you that can work, train, manage a family, a home and get on the internet every 10 minutes to check test openings. That is absolutely unrealistic. But I guess if that's the wave of the future, so be it.
> 
> I am thrilled that we are seeing success in the sport. But it sure would be nice to see new people too. The lower stakes don't seem to be improving in entries. So is the success only coming in masters with people having all these advanced training skills and skipping junior and senior? I sure as he'll couldn't have started out at master. Even with using a pro.
> 
> Sue Puff


Master does seem to be more popular. I think because a lot of people are trying to qualify for the MN and also a lot of people run UKC too finished and then switch over to get the AKC title. I know for me personally, that is what I am going to do


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## Tater 7

I think the point he is trying to make is somewhat similar to this:

You send you kids to school to learn. You didnt teach them everything they know but you can still be proud of them when they do good on test right? Or, you may have sent your kids to be coached for a certain sport and are still proud when they compete even though you weren't the main person that coached them. Same concept essentially


----------



## RookieTrainer

Some folks get enjoyment out of seeing their dogs reach their maximum potential with the right pro who is a better trainer/handler than them, has access to better grounds (and almost certainly technical water) than them, and can do it all day 5-6 days per week. One of the trade-offs for a large majority of amateur trainer/handlers out there is that, while it may be more enjoyable to train your own dog, you probably won't be able to get all of that dog's potential out of him/her.

It probably goes without saying that if a pro is handling the dog all week in training then he is likely going to be a better handler at the HT/FT on the weekend. At that point, the pro knows the dog better than you and thus knows how to help it better than you.



brsutton86 said:


> My original post was an actual question/point that you refuse to answer. No ego stroke to it. I know most people in the games will have a better dog than I for my newness to the sport and lack of experience. So theres no ego to it. Just a simple question. I have no doubt you love the sport, or you wouldn't be a forum member. If you or whoever is at the HT/FT helping out why wouldn't you want to handle? Honest question, no belittling or sarcasm. I could care less if a pro runs or trains any dog. Im just asking wheres the enjoyment?


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## brsutton86

Tater 7 said:


> I think the point he is trying to make is somewhat similar to this:
> 
> You send you kids to school to learn. You didnt teach them everything they know but you can still be proud of them when they do good on test right? Or, you may have sent your kids to be coached for a certain sport and are still proud when they compete even though you weren't the main person that coached them. Same concept essentially


Ok so the enjoyment is seeing your dog reach full potential. i can see that, at higher stakes like MH and FT easily where the handler has less experience. I would not do well at all in a FT but it would be awesome to see my dog do well, even if trained and handled by a pro. I figured I would get an answer that made sense to me, it was an honest question/opinion. I now change my stance. I could also see someone training or handling at a seasoned level which would still make a great hunting companion, and letting a pro train and handle at a MH just to see the dogs potential, even if its purpose was nothing more than a hunting companion. Makes sense now.


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## DonBrou

Personally, I do the UKC HT thing when I have time or my bitch isn't in heat. I didn't see any of the posts referring to UKC HT. It seams to be an AKC thing. Yep, I'm one of those that paid a pro to train my dogs and run them until I felt comfortable that I could take them from there. So I guess I'm one of the slugs. But, my question is this:

After reading the wining, crying, pissing and moaning, blaming, shown on the first 20 pages of this post, would anyone want to get into this game? I thought the object was to get more people involved to increase the participation therefore allowing for a younger group of participants to begin working the HTs. MY GOD, GET A LIFE!


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## Tater 7

DonBrou said:


> Personally, I do the UKC HT thing when I have time or my bitch isn't in heat. I didn't see any of the posts referring to UKC HT. It seams to be an AKC thing. Yep, I'm one of those that paid a pro to train my dogs and run them until I felt comfortable that I could take them from there. So I guess I'm one of the slugs. But, my question is this:
> 
> After reading the wining, crying, pissing and moaning, blaming, shown on the first 20 pages of this post, would anyone want to get into this game? I thought the object was to get more people involved to increase the participation therefore allowing for a younger group of participants to begin working the HTs. MY GOD, GET A LIFE!


Thats what the point of Junior and Senior are. To help get people involved in the sport even though from reading on here, I have seen that some senior test are almost as bad as Master. To have a MH dog required an extreme amount of time a dedication. Those that want to take it to the next level will. Junior and Senior to to provide a step in the door to see if people really have the dedication to take it to the next level and see what the sport is all about


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## DoubleHaul

brsutton86 said:


> Kinda off subject and im new to the games. But whats the point of having a dog and getting it titled if you didnt train, or even handle it. Where does anyone get pride in that. *If you learn to handle it, sure your doing your part.* But just having a pro do it all, wheres the joy or point? Every pro ive met has been helpful to me, nothing against them. I just don't get why someone wouldnt handle their own dog.* This would solve the issue at hand as well.*





nailbender said:


> Lighten up, Francis. This is a question that I am sure many are curious about, I know I was. Glad I didn't dare pose the question. Part of the beauty of this board is to get others points of view and ask questions. One person in the conversation asked a question, the other got all defensive and started pointing fingers and name calling. Chill out.


Read the original post. It was not just a question. The statement was made that those that handle their dogs are doing their part with the implication that those that don't are not. Also asserted was that the issues at hand would be solved if folks had to train and handle their own dogs. It may well solve the HTs filling up as quickly but there would so few HTs without these folks in the game, folks would still have a hard time finding something to run.

The finger pointing in this thread was started at pros (as is often the case) and moved on to owners that use them. My point was that there are many who use pros and do a tremendous amount for the sport. Some of their reasons I know and understand, some are strange to me and some I simply don't know. There can be a million reasons why someone chooses to do it this way but those reason are the person's own. I don't need to agree with it or even understand it. I am thankful for the help that these people give and can safely assume that because they are giving up their weekend (or in the case of the committee members or officers, way more than that) they are getting some enjoyment from it. I can't think of a single trial on my circuit that would even exist if it were not for the help of pros and/or their clients.

If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you regards,


----------



## Susan Young

DarrinGreene said:


> You think people are mad now, do this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


How could anyone be mad about assuring that the workers who are expected be out there all weekend making the test happen can also run their own dogs?

In our area, hunt tests are run on the back of volunteers. There are club members who have worked for months to get the tests up and running. There are gunners, bird throwers, marshals and stewards who will spend the day in the heat, rain and the poison ivy for two full days. There are the guys who will be there at 5:30 AM to deal with the birds, work all day, and still be there at 8:30 PM putting away the equipment. 

Again, how could ANYONE object to those people ….. the very VOLUNTEERS who make the whole test happen…. being assured entry into the test? I'm told it works quite well with AKC agility.


----------



## brsutton86

Doul said:


> Read the original post. It was not just a question. The statement was made that those that handle their dogs are doing their part with the implication that those that don't are not. Also asserted was that the issues at hand would be solved if you own and handle their own dogs. It may well solve the HTs filling up as quickly but there would so few HTs without these folks in the game, folks would still have a hard time finding something to run.
> 
> The finger pointing in this thread was started at pros (as is often the case) and moved on to owners that use them. My point was that there are many who use pros and do a tremendous amount for the sport. Some of their reasons I know and understand, some are strange to me and some I simply don't know. There can be a million reasons why someone chooses to do it this way but those reason are the person's own. I don't need to agree with it or even understand it. I am thankful for the help that these people give and can safely assume that because they are giving up their weekend (or in the case of the committee members or officers, way more than that) they are getting some enjoyment from it. I can't think of a single trial on my circuit that would even exist if it were not for the help of pros and/or their clients.
> 
> If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you regards,


You only highlighted certain statements. Its the post as a whole that i thought i made it clear it was a question, where is the joy what is the point. If you read above i now have a new understanding. I like to peacefully argue/discuss/question/answer points of view. Belittling or judging just to stir the pot is never a point of any post I make. Sorry if you took it that way.


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## mostlygold

Well stated Susan. This is how agility has always been run. The club members get to enter first, then it opens up for everyone else. Why wouldn't you want to be sure your VOLUNTEER workers were able to get into the test. If they are going to spend their limited free time helping out their clubs and others who are running their dogs, they should also be allowed to run. It shouldn't be a crap shoot for them to get in. Most clubs don't have more than a handful of members running at the MH level, so it really shouldn't be a big deal.

Dawn


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## DarrinGreene

Kyle Bertram said:


> Go ahead let me be mad.......and stay away if they wish. Clubs need help. I/we put on 6 events a year, judge 2 to 3 and often times work as my own setup crew while judging. So they will just have to suck it up and be mad!
> 
> Edited to stay with the post topic. 4 of the 6 events I/we host. Ray Shanks is running at least one of our flights in addition to being there for Fri setup!


always productive when a business say "Eff the customers, this is hard work" 

just commenting on the outlook 

thank you for your obvious dedication to the sport


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## moscowitz

Dawn and Susan I totally agree with you. But this topic has been beaten to death. Help Chris Help Chris turn it off. Turn it off.


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## TIM DOANE

Todd Caswell said:


> Since I started the thread I want to say that it was never intended to drag any individual through the mud, most that know me know that was never the case.. This test was simply used as an example to prove a point that there is a huge problem and flaw in the system. As a professional if you are going to enter a limited test , know that the club is doing it for as reason either lack of ground, lack of help or a comination of the 2 , enter 10 dogs, wait a couple days and then put more in , if it doesn't fill up.
> 
> Hopfully something good and productive will come of this, where we all can benefit.


Todd it is good to know there was no ill intent. The problem with the internet is most of us don't know you and when you post up starting with a link to EE and the particular test you are upset about and then go on to say "what a nightmare one "pro" is going to create" it looks and feels like a witch hunt.

The other bad part of the internet is that you assumed Ray was running all of those dogs when in reality he is running 13 of them and his clients will be running the rest. By clients I mean experienced dog people that know how to act at a test. Your concern was for the new club and how would they ever be able to handle this for their first hunt test. I have been to a few ht and have worked at a few and have chaired a few and if given a choice (especially as a new club) I would take Ray and all his clients(because I know the test would keep moving and there would be plenty of help) over 60 one dog entrants any day. 

You could have VERY EASILY made your point without posting a link or making the nightmare comment. I personally think that would have eliminated at least some of the nonsense and helped the thread concentrate on the issue that concerns you.

Its to bad it was not presented differently and not made personal . I truly hope something good comes of this.


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## NCShooter

This is going to be an ongoing problem for the foreseeable future. Wait until this fall in the southeast. With the MN at Cooper Black in 2015, it will be even worse around this area.
I will make the comment that the "pros" are involved and "help".
The pro that I work with has already volunteered me to "gun" at a November hunt test. The club told the "pros" that if they wanted a double master they needed to bring help with them. This communication is the key to making sure everything is covered.
I run my own dog most of the time. However, it is cheaper for me to put him on the truck with a pro or the weekend. His handing fees do not come close to equaling my travel, hotel, food, etc. Also, it is a simple fact that my dog has a better pass rate with a pro. He runs more tests in a year than I will run in a lifetime.


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## Kyle Bertram

NCShooter said:


> This is going to be an ongoing problem for the foreseeable future. Wait until this fall in the southeast. With the MN at Cooper Black in 2015, it will be even worse around this area.
> I will make the comment that the "pros" are involved and "help".
> The pro that I work with has already volunteered me to "gun" at a November hunt test. The club told the "pros" that if they wanted a double master they needed to bring help with them. This communication is the key to making sure everything is covered.
> I run my own dog most of the time. However, it is cheaper for me to put him on the truck with a pro or the weekend. His handing fees do not come close to equaling my travel, hotel, food, etc. Also, it is a simple fact that my dog has a better pass rate with a pro. He runs more tests in a year than I will run in a lifetime.


NC Shooter,

I hope you are not referring to my comments about "pros" not helping. There are a ton that help. But for everyone that helps I can name you two that do not(but I wont). I think a pro that runs 20 dogs at a Master test anywhere, should help out or clients should help at that stake. that's 30% of the field that is not there to help.

And your comment about being cheaper for you to stay home is absolutely true in every case. This is not a personal attack-But who is helping at the stake your dog is being run while you(or any other owner is at home watching the kids ballgame or a football game on TV) HERE IS THE POINT.....You paid him to run your dog, This puts the onus or should, on the pro. HE IS MAKING MONEY! He owes it, yes I said owes it to the dog community to do his part to help. a lot do pay back. I commend them respect them and they are my friends! But there are others that do not!!!! Pointing out the ones that do help, does not let the ones that don't, off the hook, I'm sorry it's the way I feel!

Great point about your club telling the pros to bring help! WELL DONE!

My rant is really to provoke the ones that don't help and provide a mindset within our community that the pros have a greater responsibility to help considering the number of handlers they represent when they pull up with 20 + dogs. I pay my own hotel bill, gas, run 1 or 2 dogs and work my butt off? I won't quit the sport because I don't like whats going on. But I'm calling it the way I see it!!!! And I want to be involved with the positive change!!!

NCshooter thanks for helping and shooting!! I know you are appreciated!


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## TIM DOANE

Kyle
According to you 33.3% of pros help. Next test you go to please pay attention to what percentage of non club member/ non pros are helping. I would love to hear what you come up with.


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## Scott Adams

I have always thought that although the retriever training community is a great one, we do from time to time eat our own.









The Onion once ran a story about two men who killed and partially ate a coworker while the three of them were stuck in a malfunctioning elevator. The three had been trapped together, without food or water, for nearly half-an-hour. In the story, the men admitted, on reflection, that they may have resorted to cannibalism just a bit prematurely.


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## Kyle Bertram

TIM DOANE said:


> Kyle
> According to you 33.3% of pros help. Next test you go to please pay attention to what percentage of non club member/ non pros are helping. I would love to hear what you come up with.


Tim,

I'd say that's about right. But if I had to guess and strictly shooting from the hip, the pros that do work. work their butts off. But no where did I indicate that the one or two dog Am handlers were carrying the rest of the weight. If I had to guess they probably are less. The only difference is I can walk up and ask them to help. They are sitting there. I can't ask a pro that come unprepared to help, or has no intention of helping i.e. the idea he is a paying customer mentality. This idea is in peoples minds some pros some Ams. Hunt Tests by nature is a volunteer supported sport. Pros make money on a weekend. But nowhere in our Rules or bylaws does it indicate they are any more or less responsible to participate in supporting our sport. 

Ironically, if the clubs did approach a more business like mindset by raising entry fees, the only ones that would suffer are the Ams and and non handling dog owners. I'd hate for handlers to figure they "paid for their weekend" We'd be in big trouble.

To be clear, my point was there is no one there that is entitled to a totally free ride on any given weekend. 

To bolster my point even more the last test of ours, I checked to see how many dogs arrived and were run off a pro truck by a pro handler I did not count the dogs that arrived on a pro truck handled by a client. ARE YOU READY?? 85 of 144 dogs handled by pro!

So to re-clarify, I stand by my 33.3 % estimate. But pros tend to be much more efficient though. So to your point, the AM handlers I'm certain are even less.


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## DoubleHaul

The guest analogy that Kyle and Madluke throw out is how I always think about it. Our club puts on tests and trials to reciprocate for all the great folks that do the same for us on our circuit. Your entry fees help pay the costs, similar to your chipping in your share for the liquor, blow and hookers at a regular party, but other than that all we expect of folks who run our event is to enjoy themselves. If you want to help out, it is welcomed, but not required or expected and if you don't we don't think any less of you.


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## moscowitz

Bertram that was a great post. Agree 100%. Our club left master national because we just did not have the help or property to pull it off. We do not lose money and as a worker it is more manageable and members don't get worn out at the end. We even get some pros running.


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## Wade Thurman

[QUOTE To bolster my point even more the last test of ours, I checked to see how many dogs arrived and were run off a pro truck by a pro handler I did not count the dogs that arrived on a pro truck handled by a client. ARE YOU READY?? 85 of 144 dogs handled by pro!
.[/QUOTE]

What a true shame that statistic is!!!!


----------



## Rick_C

gdgnyc said:


> Lighten up. That concept is not new. And at the start of Hunt Tests (NAHRA, the original) several of the founders didn't want pros in the game. They wanted a venue that was available to the regular guy/hunter that didn't have the time/money to train or the interest to train for field trials.


Correct, but that rule was not implemented in AKC. My point was that the pro's, and dog owners that use them, are operating within the rules. I suppose AKC could go that route if they wanted but as a former club officer of a club that ran AKC, HRC and NAHRA tests, I'd be careful what you wish for.

We had a club president at one time that made the comment "Why do I care if the pro's don't show up? It just means I don't have to stand out in the heat and throw for a trailer full of dogs". Such a short sighted point of view.



TIM DOANE said:


> How did that work out?


Exactly.




Wade said:


> Rick,
> 
> No offense taken with your response. Using a Pro to TRAIN ones dog is one thing, hell most of us use one. However, when game time comes on Friday, Saturday or Sunday, how about the owner come out and play. If one can't make it to the weekend trial I get that but if that's not the case where is the fun in standing there watching someone else run YOUR dog? Hey, it's a free country, do whatever you please, that right there to me doesn't me sense though. Maybe if more people in the HT ran their own dog and entered their own dog it might help in situations like this thread is talking about with regards to entries.


I don't disagree with you at all. For me, I wouldn't get nearly as much enjoyment out of the sport if I wasn't running my dog, even if a pro trained them. In fact the training is way more fun for me than running as I love seeing the development of the dog, and us as a team, through the process. My point was and is that those that for whatever reason choose to have a pro train and run their dogs shouldn't be judged for doing so just because I/we didn't make the same choice.

I also couldn't agree more that, if physically able to do so, participants in a hunt test should lend a hand when it's needed. That alone would solve one of the biggest issues clubs have running tests.


----------



## mgilles1

Isn't a rule no more than 6 dogs per handler or is that up to the clubs?


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## Thomas D

Not akc. That's Hrc I think.


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## JoeOverby

mgilles1 said:


> Isn't a rule no more than 6 dogs per handler or is that up to the clubs?


Actually the max allowed is 12 per handler...but clubs can impose their own lower limits...although I fail to see the logic...


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## Olddog

What definetly will change the hunt test game, are the people that put them on. When those people get tired of the work & other problems associated with putting on a test & quit doing so then you will have an issue. I think there are quite a few club members at that level now.


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## DRAKEHAVEN

The easiest way to limit entries and NOT set a limit is for the host club to opt out of being a Master National member. The Master passes will count towards a title but the people who are chasing numbers of passes to qualify will go elsewhere.


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## Dave Burton

I ran a test 3 or 4 yrs ago and Ray had 22 of the 40 or so dogs. Ran smooth as a babies butt. Don't remember hearing of one complaint. 

PS Jerry Beil for president....even tho he is a duel.


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## Troy Tilleraas

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> The easiest way to limit entries and NOT set a limit is for the host club to opt out of being a Master National member. The Master passes will count towards a title but the people who are chasing numbers of passes to qualify will go elsewhere.


JK, You can lead a horse to water , but you can't make em drink!


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## Ray Shanks

West Central MN has their second master flight open. Please come support this additional flight if possible.


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## Susan Young

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> The easiest way to limit entries and NOT set a limit is for the host club to opt out of being a Master National member. The Master passes will count towards a title but the people who are chasing numbers of passes to qualify will go elsewhere.


Three years ago, my club voted to drop MN membership. It was not a decision we made lightly, and it was voted at our annual meeting after more than 6 months of research and discussion. Last weekend, we held our non-MN member hunt test. We had 41 Master entries, most of which were dogs looking for passes for their MH titles. Every club member/worker who wanted to enter was able to do so. We were done, as in all the equipment put away and all workers heading home, by 3 PM on Sunday. It was like the hunt tests of old. While the finances haven't been submitted yet for this year, since dropping MN membership we have turned a small profit each year. In fact, the last time our hunt test lost money was our last year as a Master National club. 

After reading the RHTAC recommendations, the fact that the AKC and the powers that be won't allow clubs to guarantee their volunteer workers a chance to run their dogs, and the area clubs with tests in August which closed within minutes blocking the workers from running their dogs, I predict there will be more clubs dropping their MN memberships in the very near future.


----------



## Todd Caswell

Susan Young said:


> Three years ago, my club voted to drop MN membership. It was not a decision we made lightly, and it was voted at our annual meeting after more than 6 months of research and discussion. Last weekend, we held our non-MN member hunt test. We had 41 Master entries, most of which were dogs looking for passes for their MH titles. Every club member/worker who wanted to enter was able to do so. We were done, as in all the equipment put away and all workers heading home, by 3 PM on Sunday. It was like the hunt tests of old. While the finances haven't been submitted yet for this year, since dropping MN membership we have turned a small profit each year. In fact, the last time our hunt test lost money was our last year as a Master National club.
> 
> After reading the RHTAC recommendations, the fact that the AKC and the powers that be won't allow clubs to guarantee their volunteer workers a chance to run their dogs, and the area clubs with tests in August which closed within minutes blocking the workers from running their dogs, I predict there will be more clubs dropping their MN memberships in the very near future.







Hopefully you are correct and more clubs will follow your lead...


----------



## DRAKEHAVEN

Todd Caswell said:


> Hopefully you are correct and more clubs will follow your lead...


From my standpoint, one more club will not renew it's MN membership. At least that's my vote !


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## Brandon Gross

I always find it interesting that the people who bash Master Nationals are the people that have never participated or run the event. Its the same with those that bash the pro out there making a living. Never met the pro, and dont know anything about him but cry, cry, cry about him. Make the arrangements to have someone enter your dog in an event if you aren't able to sign him up. I bet your the same people that complain when "YOU" fail a test because you didnt properly prepare your dog. Let me guess, it was the dogs fault? Ya sound like a bunch of 2 year olds.


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## Scott Adams

Brandon Gross said:


> I always find it interesting that the people who bash Master Nationals are the people that have never participated or run the event. Its the same with those that bash the pro out there making a living. Never met the pro, and dont know anything about him but cry, cry, cry about him. Make the arrangements to have someone enter your dog in an event if you aren't able to sign him up. I bet your the same people that complain when "YOU" fail a test because you didnt properly prepare your dog. Let me guess, it was the dogs fault? Ya sound like a bunch of 2 year olds.


HAHA Welcome to the forum Brandon. Tell us your thoughts on seating on a duck.


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## wheelhorse

Scott Adams said:


> Brandon. Tell us your thoughts on seating on a duck.


+1000


----------



## Good Dogs

Kyle Bertram said:


> Todd I agree. I was hoping Chris wouldn't shut it down, there was a lot of thought provoking ideas kicked around. As a club president I'm deeply involved with our HT and our FT. It's funny how through the years the attitudes change. But I feel the HT general handlers need to wake up to the fact that HELP is a way bigger problem than capacity. Just my opinion and possibly in the southeast where I am primarily involved, FT handlers and people involved(they KNOW they are not the customer JK) have a better grasp on how their sport is close to real trouble if they don't get involved. Not all of them step up and do a lot about it. But FTers understand it better. I've never even handled a dog at a FT but when I speak to AM s about judging they understand they have to take their turn and most seldom turn in any expenses that are not 100% justifiable.
> 
> If this thread did no more than point out that;
> 
> -HTs no more belong to the Am than the pros. It's an open sport for all! So all of us need to STOP focusing on the pros they are not the problem!
> 
> - Lack of help is as big a problem as limiting entries(probably the elephant in the room)it's just too easy to b*** about our entry system. We can fix both of these. It's very common in Atlanta that if our members don't have a dog in our HT they don't show. YES I'm picking on my own club! So unless we want to see $ 150.00 entries Lets all get involved.
> 
> - HT's are headed for a disaster if we don't get everyone to realize the judges pool is getting smaller everyday. And it's getting harder to qualify to judge. So I think if you run more than an occasional Master dog. Please ask yourself if you have given back by judging. (i know , I know there are some we don't want judging). This is another factor limiting capacity.
> 
> - There are lots of pros that help a ton, as in way more than they should have to (and keeping with the thread theme, Ray Shanks happens to be one of them that works his butt off at all events and he encourages his clients to get involved. Damn him look what he's done to me!) but this is a good opportunity to b**** without any names thrown out there. Pros that show up with 3 to 8+ dogs.....please pitch in and help and pros with 20 dogs encourage your clients to jump in and help cause you will be too busy you are not our customer! This is as much your sport as the guy with 1 dog, but you have more riding on this than us! BTW our sport will survive if we lost them don't fool yourself we would adjust!
> 
> OK I'll get off my soapbox, sorry if I ticked anyone off. I hope everyone will come to ARC. I'll treat you like a guest, but I'll also ask you to help! And when I run my dog at your event. I am ALWAYS ready to do anything for the club except, I ask for 5 mins before I run my dog to get my act together and then I'll be back at it!!!!!
> 
> Kyle Bertram


Kyle,
There is no question that no-one works harder to put on a good event than do you and your bride. So, thanks. But available help is only part of the problem. Of the clubs in which I participate several have very real constraints on available land. So those clubs need the ability to control entries. (I'd rather the clubs were given the power to make their own determination of how many entries they can handle adequately,but that's a different story.) 
There seem to be 3 consistent sub-currents in this thread. One is a perceived "anti-pro" attitude. That's unfortunate and does nothing to advance a solution. But having a large portion of available slots consumed by a single individual is a legitimate concern. That leads to other sub-thread, the issue of making sure "workers" and club members are able to get into their own event. And that leads to bashing EE (the 3rd sub-thread.) It seems that all 3 are related and that prior to the use of EE none of these perceived problems were a concern. I'd expect that if clubs decided to go back to paper and mail entries this particular "problem" would be solved for those clubs. 
Or, to put it simply - if EE is such a problem, stop using it.


----------



## Kyle Bertram

Good Dogs said:


> Kyle,
> There is no question that no-one works harder to put on a good event than do you and your bride. So, thanks. But available help is only part of the problem. Of the clubs in which I participate several have very real constraints on available land. So those clubs need the ability to control entries. (I'd rather the clubs were given the power to make their own determination of how many entries they can handle adequately,but that's a different story.)
> There seem to be 3 consistent sub-currents in this thread. *One is a perceived "anti-pro" attitude.* That's unfortunate and does nothing to advance a solution. But having a large portion of available slots consumed by a single individual is a legitimate concern. *That leads to other sub-thread, the issue of making sure "workers" and club members are able to get into their own event*. And that leads to bashing EE (the 3rd sub-thread.) It seems that all 3 are related and that prior to the use of EE none of these perceived problems were a concern. I'd expect that if clubs decided to go back to paper and mail entries this particular "problem" would be solved for those clubs.
> Or, to put it simply - if EE is such a problem, stop using it.


Bob, I did not mean to imply that lack of help was the only problem. I agree that each club faces a unique set of problems. So every club has to setup and run their event accordingly. We are supporters of the Master National and we will continue to support it. And limiting entries allows us to do that. We want to continue limited entries, but with a fair shot at entering for all. (personally first come first serve with a waiting list seems ok to me)

I don't understand the " Anti Pro" mentality they are certainly not the crux of the problem.

For discussion sake, I like the idea of assuring the club members and workers get in. So what is a fair percentage? 

BTW Can we go back to the mail in system? I was never involved when that was the system.


----------



## Swampcollie

Kyle Bertram said:


> BTW Can we go back to the mail in system? I was never involved when that was the system.


You can mail in an entry to any AKC test.


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## tim bonnema

For many the "Anti Pro" thing came about when a group of pros decided to send a letter to AKC and EE that would fine clubs for limiting thier entries. It further went that clubs needed to send in what grounds they have and resources. Like we don't have enough with the Gov telling us what we can and can't do. 

Ray. A question for you. Did you enter the 33 dogs or did your clients happen to all enter at the same time? And if you did Why?

A question for all. Many are upset one way or the other here. I don't understand why just because it is after Aug 1st does a event fill up in hours when right now events are closeing with many open spots. There is not a extra ribbon for qualifing your dog early is there?


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## stonybrook

Tim - I don't know for sure but I believe that early August is when dogs can start earning qualifications for the following year's Master National.


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## stonybrook

Perhaps entering our dogs in these events should be done much like one applies for a non-resident hunting license where all entries are put into a pool and randomly selected. Possibly "Residents" (dues paying club members) could have preference up to a certain date or set number of entries and then the remaining open spots get filled from the pool?


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## Kyle Bertram

stonybrook said:


> Tim - I don't know for sure but I believe that early August is when dogs can start earning qualifications for the following year's Master National.



Yes August 1st starts the new qualifying year!


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## Kyle Bertram

stonybrook said:


> Perhaps entering our dogs in these events should be done much like one applies for a non-resident hunting license where all entries are put into a pool and randomly selected. Possibly "Residents" (dues paying club members) could have preference up to a certain date or set number of entries and then the remaining open spots get filled from the pool?


Keep the ideas coming, but lets not forget IMHO EE is here to stay, at least the near future. So whatever is done will need to fit within the current entry system.


----------



## Kyle Bertram

Swampcollie said:


> You can mail in an entry to any AKC test.



Sure can.....but I don't think this will necessarily get you into a limited Master Test....Our event fills in a couple hours.


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## Thomas D

stonybrook said:


> Perhaps entering our dogs in these events should be done much like one applies for a non-resident hunting license where all entries are put into a pool and randomly selected. Possibly "Residents" (dues paying club members) could have preference up to a certain date or set number of entries and then the remaining open spots get filled from the pool?


Couldn't just about anyone send in 35 bucks for membership, thus guaranteeing preference?


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## stonybrook

Sure.....and they can be counted on to work at the test, right?


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## Splash_em

Anyone going to post what time the test finished and how long everyone sat around waiting on Ray?


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## tim bonnema

Yep someone will. we did not wait on Ray. The time the test finished really does not matter as Ray would have been only one factor in that. Did Ray effect the test. Yes. Honor had to be done in the first series so we had a honor dog for every one of Rays working dogs. This was due to a second Pro scrathing 17 dogs at the last minute. Ray and his crew helped out. I got along well with him and would be glad to stake chair a test with him running. I still however disagree with some of his Ideas such as the fining of clubs for limited enteries. and having someone else say how big OR SMALL a test would be. This club was doing thier first HT and had limited people to do it. We had several behind the curtian issues. Stakes had to wait for other stakes to finish to use the grounds. The second MH flight did not help. 

Ray it was good to meet you and look forward to seeing you at the next test.


----------



## Chris Atkinson

tim bonnema said:


> Yep someone will. we did not wait on Ray. The time the test finished really does not matter as Ray would have been only one factor in that. Did Ray effect the test. Yes. Honor had to be done in the first series so we had a honor dog for every one of Rays working dogs. This was due to a second Pro scrathing 17 dogs at the last minute. Ray and his crew helped out. I got along well with him and would be glad to stake chair a test with him running. I still however disagree with some of his Ideas such as the fining of clubs for limited enteries. and having someone else say how big OR SMALL a test would be. This club was doing thier first HT and had limited people to do it. We had several behind the curtian issues. Stakes had to wait for other stakes to finish to use the grounds. The second MH flight did not help.
> 
> Ray it was good to meet you and look forward to seeing you at the next test.


Several weeks ago, I got to speak with Ray on the phone. (This very internet discussion created that opportunity  )

We had a nice discussion and he's someone whose path I look forward to crossing one day.

Chris


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## Labs4us

I can say first hand since I judged this event, we NEVER had to wait for Ray to run a dog. In the first series with a honor we were short on dogs he had Melissa in the holding blind with his next dog and said that Melissa would handle the dog on the honor and whatever happened, happened. Though out the whole test, he made sure that he kept the holding blind full & the test running smoothly. Many times Ray would finish running with Melissa in the holding blind with the next dog to run and they would hand off dogs & they were ready to run. When were talking about shooting a flyer in the 3rd series and the club was taxed for workers he put together a flier crew (that we didn't end up using) but several of Ray's clients stepped in to help throw birds & help marshal and help set-up and take down test set-ups.


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## Ray Shanks

Just want to say Thank You to West Central for a great test. Damon and Tim was in charge of our flight and did a great job keeping it moving along. There grounds are nice and have great water. We all came together put our differences a side and had an enjoyable hunt test. Thanks again to all that helped out at West Central.


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## GulfCoast

Ray: 
You are one of the good guys in this biz, and I am really sorry you have had to put up with all this. Hope to see you soon. 
Mark


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## Karen Klotthor

Who ever accused Ray of not working is nuts. I have worked along side of him and he works hard. Not only did he work the Master flgt I was in, he finished running his dogs, and went in to cook the judges dinner.
Of course most of the pros down south work and run dogs.


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## BentleysMom

Ray and Melissa are great folks, both seem very hard working and I had no doubt they would keep things running smooth! I would be more upset about a pro scratching what? 17 dogs?? really? Last minute. unless of course it was an emergency or something. Those spots could have been to other dogs and handlers not to mention the club taking it for the team on short notice. This makes no sense to me. unless I am missing something.


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## fishduck

Ray and Melissa are both assets to the retriever community. It is no surprise to me the test ran smoothly.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B

fishduck said:


> Ray and Melissa are both assets to the retriever community. It is no surprise to me the test ran smoothly.


Amen to this. Ray and Melissa are just plain "good folks" who I look forward to seeing at a HT.


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## swliszka

Curious - based on expressed thread comments why do Hunt Test people have sooo much drama considering they participate in a standard driven activity?


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## Rainmaker

swliszka said:


> Curious - based on expressed thread comments why do Hunt Test people have sooo much drama considering they participate in a standard driven activity?


I know how some snort at HT but don't ever think we don't train hard, spend a lot of time and money running the venue we choose or that we don't have pride in our dogs. I see plenty of drama at FT. Doesn't matter what color the ribbons are, every venue has its issues. Mocking what's going on with HT and limited entries right now isn't really a joke to some of us.


----------



## Jim Spagna

Ray Shanks said:


> Glad to see there is a few people on here with their cup half full instead of half empty. I have only 13 dogs entered at west central with just my name on them. A good many of the other entries will be handled by the owner. Todd there is room for one more dog so feel free to enter yours. If you would like to discuss this with me my number is 706-338-9040. People that know me know the club will not have to wait on me or incur additional expenses.


This thread is a lot like the Ferguson, MO news coverage. People have taken some data, made some assumptions, and gone off half-cocked. With ALL this conversation, not a single person has suggested the possibility that a handler has put your name on the entry form to insure that they were in the same flight...for whatever reason. If someone has already mentioned this, I apologize.


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## joboo6

Todd was wondering how your introduction went? I assume you will chime in some time.


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## Dave Kress

Well I'm just curious and inquiring minds want to know! 
The thread started out as a real knife fights, nut kicking and mud slinging affair. 
Ray and crew were the evil empire! Then it ends on a group hug note 

Just how many dogs did Ray run ? 

Just me being curious again 
Dk


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## Labs4us

Dave I can't give you an exact number on how many he ran, but I know he was at the line a lot.


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## Todd Caswell

joboo6 said:


> Todd was wondering how your introduction went? I assume you will chime in some time.


Nope no introduction, hugs or kisses, stayed home and trained my dogs, so far this summer I have judged 3 trials, staked chaired 3 weekends, ran 2 trials, 2 HT and worked as well as ran at two of those, so we took the weekend off and trained. I'm glad all went well, for the club, judges and other participants, but it still doesn't change my opinion on the situation where a person can enter 30 dogs whether they are running all 30 or 1 of them, and I don't care who it is it's not right. Also noticed there were 15 master and 2 sen. Scratches from one other individual;-)


----------



## Kyle Bertram

Todd Caswell said:


> Nope no introduction, hugs or kisses, stayed home and trained my dogs, so far this summer I have judged 3 trials, staked chaired 3 weekends, ran 2 trials, 2 HT and worked as well as ran at two of those, so we took the weekend off and trained. I'm glad all went well, for the club, judges and other participants, but it still doesn't change my opinion on the *situation where a person can enter 30 dogs whether they are running all 30 or 1 of them,* and I don't care who it is it's not right. Also noticed there were 15 master and 2 sen. Scratches from one other individual;-)




I still don't see why it matters....


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## Todd Caswell

Kyle Bertram said:


> I still don't see why it matters....


Kyle to be honest it really doesn't matter to me personally, but when a working club member can't get entered in a HT because someone ( I'll refrain from names from this point forward) feels the need to enter more than there share of dogs and that working member has no chance to run there dog because the test filled up in 10 min. it really is a problem, if you don't see it than I really have nothing more to say to you on the subject. In this case the club had the grounds, found a second set of judges, had the extra help withing the club to make a second flight happen great, like I said glad it worked out.. Not all clubs can pull that trick off..


----------



## Good Dogs

Todd Caswell said:


> Kyle to be honest it really doesn't matter to me personally, but when a working club member can't get entered in a HT because someone ( I'll refrain from names from this point forward) feels the need to enter more than there share of dogs and that working member has no chance to run there dog because the test filled up in 10 min. it really is a problem, if you don't see it than I really have nothing more to say to you on the subject. In this case the club had the grounds, found a second set of judges, had the extra help withing the club to make a second flight happen great, like I said glad it worked out.. Not all clubs can pull that trick off..


So, what is "there [sic] share of dogs?" Maybe you missed the post where the individual in question stated he entered less than 1/2 of the dogs for which he was listed as handler. So, how many dogs should he have left in the kennel to satisfy you? The rules are the rules. You can work to change the rules but until that happens why should you or anyone else feel empowered to prevent someone else from playing by the rules ?


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## Todd Caswell

Good Dogs said:


> So, what is "there [sic] share of dogs?" Maybe you missed the post where the individual in question stated he entered less than 1/2 of the dogs for which he was listed as handler. So, how many dogs should he have left in the kennel to satisfy you? The rules are the rules. You can work to change the rules but until that happens why should you or anyone else feel empowered to prevent someone else from playing by the rules ?


Goood Dogs, not sure who you are ( a real name would help ), But I really really don't care beyound the point that it effects active club members, in every club where this happens and I'm sure you know what happens when active club members get fed up and don't come to work or play anymore


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## BJGatley

It's not a perfect world...So with that...Can I somehow make changes or just give up and venture elsewhere and say the hell with it. Is it fair? Only if it says the same. 
If we become bitter, then nothing will happen...If we try and do something, then at least we are trying. Do or do not. We all have a voice. 
Me


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## limiman12

Gonna throw this out there.... Again not saying the system isn't in need of some tweaking, BUT has a person that has chaired 12-15 tests for a couple of organizations, having two or three pros with all the dogs actually RELIEVES a far amount of stress. Assuming he understands his butt is going to be at master all day..... Marshaling will be a breeze, won't have to track down 50 different ametures handlers that you may not know..... Parking will be much less of an issue..... Yes there will not be the ams there to help, but frequently they don't always pitch in..... If a club has north of 4k coming in and can't pay a local FFA club or find a youth shooting sports team or whatever to come throw birds for 5-600 bucks....... It may be the easiest set of circumstances for a first go at hosting a test.


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## Kyle Bertram

limiman12 said:


> Gonna throw this out there.... Again not saying the system isn't in need of some tweaking, BUT has a person that has chaired 12-15 tests for a couple of organizations, having two or three pros with all the dogs actually RELIEVES a far amount of stress. Assuming he understands his butt is going to be at master all day..... Marshaling will be a breeze, won't have to track down 50 different ametures handlers that you may not know..... Parking will be much less of an issue..... Yes there will not be the ams there to help, but frequently they don't always pitch in..... If a club has north of 4k coming in and can't pay a local FFA club or find a youth shooting sports team or whatever to come throw birds for 5-600 bucks....... It may be the easiest set of circumstances for a first go at hosting a test.


Limiman12 , Yes Well Said!

This Horse has been beat to death. I'm tired of it but since it has reared it's ugly head here are a couple other thoughts.



Ray is my friend, but aside from that. I want him on my team every event. THINGS GET DONE. I know I do my fair share and so does he. Between he and Melissa, his clients and a few other workers we have pulled off many events with success.

If every pro had the number of clients that are willing to help, no hunt test would lack for help. Don't be hater because someone else is damn good at what they do and they continue to do it and get better all the time. 

Correct me if I am wrong We can all use the multiple dog entry system we just have to pay right then. So what is the difference? If you want to take advantage of this get, 30 of your friends together and enter your dogs at once. Just don't forget don't be mad when there are 29 spots left and you are entering 31 and it kicks you out for too many dogs. SO it can work against you!!!!!!!!! 

Kyle Bertram
Atlanta Retriever Club


----------



## wojo

Spot on Kyle.


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## jhnnythndr

I've wondered about that. Why the club doesn't just collect entry fees from members working the test and then just hav the secretary enter their dogs and pay for them all at once when they open the test. As though they were the dogs on a pros truck. It solves the immediate concern of club members not getting in. Maybe it's too much hassle.


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## Good Dogs

jhnnythndr said:


> I've wondered about that. Why the club doesn't just collect entry fees from members working the test and then just hav the secretary enter their dogs and pay for them all at once when they open the test. As though they were the dogs on a pros truck. It solves the immediate concern of club members not getting in. Maybe it's too much hassle.


You obviously don't understand that the purpose of threads like this is not to promote solutions. If that happened every time someone started a whiny rant what would there be to talk about?


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## jhnnythndr

My bad- I'm new. I'll try to keep myself in line from now on though


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## Melissa R Shanks

I have read this post as long as I can without responding. My response comes from the wearing of several different hats. 

The AKC hunt test program and the Master National must be doing something right. If not, we would not be seeing this blame game over and over again. Who in their right mind complains about GROWTH? Do you in your everyday business? I think not. How do you handle it? It is my assumption that you find a way, correct? That is what we, the ones that truly love and are dedicated to OUR sport, should do. We should be getting out there and busting our tails to make it work. Yes, I for one, can relate to how grueling a weekend hunt test truly is. I have been there, done that, and still do it every chance I can. It does not matter to me if it is my club or someone elses. No, I am not looking for any kind of credit, just stating my position on the issues at hand. I understand how it is to put on a test with limited "working" club members and have to ask for help from the outside participants. Thankfully, I have had people that will step up and help. Most participants are that way, they just need to be asked. 

I have been there as Hunt Test chairman when grounds were lost or cut in half at the last minute. We had to make it work. It was that time, that out of the box thinking was mandatory to come up with a solution. During set up, we had both sets of Master judges get together and set up four possible scenarios to rotate the flights. The fourth scenario was a back up just in case one flight was delayed a bit. The other could keep going and not create a bottle neck. I also realize that depending on property, this may not be feasible as the tests may be too close in proximity and interfere with each other. More often than not, this is the exception not the rule. This also "should" cut down on the fussing and comparing between flights that one flights set ups were not as challenging as the others, etc. 

I know that the Master National Board has been discussing the entries for quite some time now and truly this topic is probably on the agenda of every monthly conference call. So please don't sit there and think this is not being addressed. Proposals/changes cannot and should not be quickly acted upon when the entire retriever hunt test communitly will be affected. Careful consideration and weighing of pros and cons, is put in to each and every idea brought forth to the board. 

I think it has been said on here several times, Entry Express is looking in to ways to enhance the entry system from their end. This is not something that can be done overnight. Be patient and trust the one that knows far better than anyone else on this forum. He is telling you, they recognize the need for it and changes are coming. Thank you, David.

Some have asked for opening dates and times to be specified on the premium. I truly believe this does give everyone a "fair shake". I did just that on my club's listing on the initial page of EE, this spring. I opened the test at 6:00pm CST on the day advertised and not one minute before. I still had openings for our double master, senior, junior when the entries closed.

Do I think other suggestions on here are valid? ABSOLUTELY!!! I do have a couple of questions for those that have made suggestions..... Have you made contact with your regional Master National Board member? Have you submitted a proposal to either your local Master National club or the Master National board? Have you submitted in writing anything of sorts to the AKC or the Retriever Hunt Test Advisory Committee? Lastly but certainly not least, have you volunteered your time _and showed up to work that _event whether you are running a dog or not? 

The West Central Minnesota Retriever Club took it upon themselves to add another flight to accommodate additional people wanting to run their test. I hope that each of you complaining about the number of entries that one person had, entered the event, showed up and helped in any way that you could. The second flight remained open for quite some time. I checked it randomly until the close and there were spots that opened back up. The WCMRC did a phenomenal job hosting and putting on their first Hunt test. I realize there were behind the scenes things that happened, but it was not publically known. The guys, Tim and Damon, that were over our flight were exceptionally hard workers and I truly appreciate all they did to keep the flight running smoothly and decreased downtime between series. I cannot thank the club, its working members, and the judges enough for such an awesome weekend.

I would like to take an additional few minutes to talk about the "30 plus dog handler". First, let me start of by thanking each of you who have had many kind words to say about Ray and his work ethic. He loves the sport and gives back 100% (running, working and judging) all the time. As mentioned earlier, he tries to instill this in all his clients as well. I don't want to respond to each and every thread but I do want to take the time to elaborate on the one asking, "Why would an amateur not be willing to run in a different flight than their pro?" Really... Maybe it is that they are there to not only run their dog, but to seek advice, guidance and support from the individual they entrust their companion to on a daily basis or value the training as a day trainer. It is a TEAM effort. I don't know of many teams where the players play in a different field than their coach. Maybe they want to be in that same flight to be able to pitch in and help do whatever it takes to make things run smootly for their said pro and the flight he is assigned to because they know he will be busy running dogs. I can't speak for other pro's clients, but I believe I am correct in speaking about his. These clients come and train with him on a daily, weekly, or "just when they need it basis" to better themselves and he is more than happy to help them at any point. Why should they not want to seek out that same advice at an event? 

To the question of how many dogs did he run at WCMNRC.... he ran twenty-one and I ran two. We had one scratch due to one being in season. (The club was notified as soon as we knew of the scratch.) The rest, were clients that came to run their dog that is on his truck or that train with him as day trainers. I would also like to clarify that only ONE bye dog had to be run during the honor series and it was no different than any other test. It was the last dog. 

I make this offer... If I am ever entered in one of your club events and you need additional help, please reach out to me and let me know. From marshalling, throwing birds, shooting flyers, break down/set up, whatever- I am there to help. 

I only ask one favor and that is if you have no intentions of signing up, running, showing up and working the event, please do not put your two cents out there for the sake of stirring the pot. We should all be in this game together for the betterment of OUR sport.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B

AMEN Miss Melissa.......you sure have a way with words...... You and Ray are TOP NOTCH in my book of FRIENDS..........Otey


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## Karen Klotthor

Melissa, well Said. The ones of use the do volunteer to work do know that you and Ray both work very hard. I always like being in the same flight as you and Ray. Looking forward to seeing you both sometime this spring. Unforunately both our clubs hunts are on the same day. If for some reason PHRC has to cancel I would love to come run Magnolia's and you know I will help.
Karen


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## priceskeet

Melissa you are wasting your time trying to explain to the WHINIERS. People that have been around you and Ray know yall help ever way you can plus some.
Thank's for your help in the game we love. See you at the Atlanta test.


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## P J

priceskeet said:


> Melissa you are wasting your time trying to explain to the WHINIERS. People that have been around you and Ray know yall help ever way you can plus some.
> Thank's for your help in the game we love. See you at the Atlanta test.


Randy, you hit the nail on the head. 

I'm still relatively new at this, but I have marshaled several tests, both AKC and HRC. I have not run into a pro that didn't try to do whatever they could to work with me to make things run smoothly, no matter how many dogs they had.


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## hooked on quackers

Melissa, you keep it up and you might get drafted into politics


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