# Hey Guys! Fred is just like the rest of us!!!



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Hey RTF,

A fellow RTF member sent me a link to a youtube video. I think it was meant to be a wee little bit of a dig because it shows the person failing instead of passing. It is a standard crash and burn at AKC senior. I can honestly say I have crashed and burned lots harder and as this was the first attempt at senior for the poster, I can also say I have failed much more often. Personally, I am a bit surprised the judges did not ask him to honor on lead. 
Anyway, Fred, it has happened to us all. And if somebody says otherwise they are a gosh darn liar or have not run enough tests yet. One time when a dog of mine broke just like yours in this vid I yelled “No Here!” and both the working dog and my dog came to heel at my leg. Wanted to crawl into a hole I did.
Still love the camo jump suite Fred, the link- http://www.youtube.com/user/fredhassen#p/a/u/1/kxB3in4_Akc

.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Personally, I am a bit surprised the judges did not ask him to honor on lead.


My guess was he was not "out" at that point in time....but after the break he was definately out.....glad to see that posted, at least Fred is in good company!

Failed my share regards,

FOM


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Been there done that........

fellow flunkie regards,


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

It looks like both dogs needed a frisbee to sit on.


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Test was the Hills Ferry HRC test at Los Banos, CA. Very tough test with fairly lenient judging. As you can see we had a very strong wind all day; for the land test, blowing right in the dogs face for most of the test. The blind is run nearly direct into the wind. Moderate cover in the flooded field. Hard to see in the video, but the birds actually put up a splash when they fall. Heavy wall of cover in front of the memory bird flared many of the dogs like Fred's, mostly to the left back into the live guns. The memory bird was chucked using a winger that really put the bird out there, hard to see on the video. Numbers for the test: 42 dogs entered, 40 starters, 27 called back to second series, 18 dogs qualified. 

Water test was even worse because of the wind. Birds drifted a goodly distance because of the wind, but cover prohibited handler from seeing the falls or seeing/handling their dogs to the birds when needed. Many dogs went out of sight for lengthy periods of time. Test was stopped after 17 dogs due to darkness and resumed on Sunday with much better conditions (no wind). Although 3 of the 10 dogs run on Sunday did not qualify due to poor handling or other infractions (retrieving decoy).

Of course one of the items not shown on Fred's video was his warm up drills and his getting his dog to sit by pulling on its tail! Not something you read about in most training manuals. 


T. Mac


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Some things that jump out, at a glance. That Fred could have done differently. Keeping in mind even if he did everything I am about to suggest and that others will post after…. The dog still might have broke.

Anyway,

The bouncing in the holding blind…. Bad. Yes it was behind a truck and not a real holding blind. You will see that a lot. Develop a routine from truck to running line. Work on consistency and control,( yea look in a mirror, I know) the more better you have control from truck to line the better it will be from line to bird. That bouncy in the holding blind dog will be the undoing of many a test or trial.

Two sided heeling, putting the dog on your right leg for the memory bird and the blind retrieve would have been helpful.

The duck hand off. LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES!!!! Grip that duck like a hobo grips a brown paper bag. Use the off hand, in this case I was suggesting putting the dog on your right leg for the memory so duck in left hand held behind you at small of back. Line up dog because your feet are pointed right at the memory duck. Not the gunning station but at the actual duck. You should do this as the dog started coming back with the go bird. So duck in left hand behind back, dog lines up send it…. Then worry about handing off the duck to the judge.

Slow Down…….. you sent the dog on the blind retrieve way to soon. I have done the same. You could tell right through the video it was still yearning to hunt more at the hall of the memory. You own the running line. It is bought and paid for. Use it.

.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

If you can think of a way to fail an AKC senior test, I have done it.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Aw shucks, if a dog has never humiliated you in front of 60 or 70 people, you just have not run many tests (or trials) yet!


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I noticed he didn't shoulder the gun to help the dog swing with the gun for the marks. I guess he found out being steady in the yard and being steady at a hunt test is totally different. I was running my dog in a master test and someone said to watch out for the honor because the flier was right in your face I told them my dog might creep but she's never broke you should never say never you know what happened.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I don't think I could ever love a dog, that never; broke, ignored a bunch of whistles, or grabbed a bird off the dryer, at least once!


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Ken,

Good suggestions. One other point that I think needs to be made not only to Fred, but several others who ran this test or may look at this video, is that they need to challenge the blind. Fred needed a much quicker whistle on the blind to try to keep the dog from flairing with the wind and all the suction of the marks to the left. Many judges would have dropped a dog/handler that didn't at least try to keep the line going to the blind, rather than putting the dog downwind into the scent cone and allowing it to hunt back from there. As it was, the only things there to judge was the one cast refusal the dog gave before it got to the scent cone and its inability to carry the initial line. 

And one other thing, in Fred's defense, I think they had a rebird between his run and honor. I don't remeber if he did it, but I saw several handlers leash their dogs during the rebirding. At senior, your obedience training should be such that you do not need to do this. And in fact I think it works as a detriment as some dogs equate the leash coming off (even for the honor) as a signal that they get to retrieve again, because we do not take a leash off and then watch the birds fall and not pick them up very often (if at all) in training. If possible, I'd rather have my dog remain off leash and put in a down or sit facing away from the guns while I kneal next to them. I was surprised the judges did not have a blind down there for the dogs to step behind when the blind was planted (although with the wind the blind probably would not have stayed up. The gun blinds sure didn't) 


T. Mac


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## TollerLover (Aug 25, 2008)

If he's ever going to run past Started in HRC, he better not carry the gun like that....


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> The bouncing in the holding blind…. Bad. Yes it was behind a truck and not a real holding blind. You will see that a lot. Develop a routine from truck to running line. Work on consistency and control,( yea look in a mirror, I know) the more better you have control from truck to line the better it will be from line to bird. That bouncy in the holding blind dog will be the undoing of many a test or trial.


Yeah, that bouncing is usually a bad sign and it escalates running too many tests in a row.


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## Rich Schultheis (Aug 12, 2006)

T. Mac said:


> Test was the Hills Ferry HRC test at Los Banos, CA. Very tough test with fairly lenient judging. As you can see we had a very strong wind all day; for the land test, blowing right in the dogs face for most of the test. The blind is run nearly direct into the wind. Moderate cover in the flooded field. Hard to see in the video, but the birds actually put up a splash when they fall. Heavy wall of cover in front of the memory bird flared many of the dogs like Fred's, mostly to the left back into the live guns. The memory bird was chucked using a winger that really put the bird out there, hard to see on the video. Numbers for the test: 42 dogs entered, 40 starters, 27 called back to second series, 18 dogs qualified.
> 
> Water test was even worse because of the wind. Birds drifted a goodly distance because of the wind, but cover prohibited handler from seeing the falls or seeing/handling their dogs to the birds when needed. Many dogs went out of sight for lengthy periods of time. Test was stopped after 17 dogs due to darkness and resumed on Sunday with much better conditions (no wind). Although 3 of the 10 dogs run on Sunday did not qualify due to poor handling or other infractions (retrieving decoy).
> 
> ...


T.Mac---isn't the video of an AKC Senior level test? Confused by what HRC test you were describing.


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## drakedogwaterfowl (Mar 27, 2009)

pondhopper said:


> T.Mac---isn't the video of an AKC Senior level test? Confused by what HRC test you were describing.


It has to be AKC. There were no shots fired from the line and Fred didn't blow a duck call.


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## Rich Schultheis (Aug 12, 2006)

drakedogwaterfowl said:


> It has to be AKC. There were no shots fired from the line and Fred didn't blow a duck call.


yep thats what i was getting at


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Not really, I think most are trying to point out so others can constructively learn from mistakes made, there is great value in failures, but I'd just as soon learn from others as my own. How many people who've never run or even seen an AKC SH test aren't getting something out of this/QUOTE]
> 
> HUH huh
> 
> p


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Add me to the Crash and Burn list!


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

The test in the video was an AKC, senior level test put on by the Hills Ferry Hunting Retriever Club http://www.hillsferryhrc.org this last weekend. Located near Los Banos, they have been hosting AKC test for about 15 years. Recently they began doing some NAHRA tests. Their AKC test and related BBQ and raffle are one of the nicest and best attended events of the spring. And in the interest of full disclosure, I was a member of the club for several years, joining just after the club was formed. 

T. Mac


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## pwyxit63 (Jan 3, 2003)

GulfCoast said:


> Aw shucks, if a dog has never humiliated you in front of 60 or 70 people, you just have not run many tests (or trials) yet!



*mine is the EXACT OPPOSITE, I humiliate my dog at the test!!!*

*wishing my partner had a better partner regards,*


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2010)

TollerLover said:


> If he's ever going to run past Started in HRC, he better not carry the gun like that....


That's what I was thinking!!! Even in AKC. The gun was pointed at every single person en route to the line.

Other than that, this looks like a pretty standard inexperienced dog/handler performance. I clicked on something that didn't allow me to get to hear any narrative after he retrieved the blind. 

But, even though it wasn't perfect, I wouldn't particularly call this crash and burn??? Dog had to handle on the mark, sounds like lots of whistles, but I can't really see the dog.

Blind looked like there may have been a cast refusal or two. I'm not sure what else.

I don't think the video quality is good enough to make too many judgment calls from it.

But, good effort on the part of Fred and Charger. I think if nothing else, I feel like Fred's continuing experience will broaden his perspective of what it takes to have a fully trained working retriever -- as I feel like some videos look like "just throwing stuff out there" without too much thought to factors, etc. And that's what you need starting in senior (with the mega crosswind) and definately into master.

-K


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

GulfCoast said:


> Aw shucks, if a dog has never humiliated you in front of 60 or 70 people, you just have not run many tests (or trials) yet!


Yeah you get over the humilation after a while  Sometimes it takes a while, but you eventually get over it and stop blaming the judges, the poor throws, bad flier, poor conditions, stupid dog and realize it's just dogs picking stuff up...........or not! Not to mention that 99.9% of the time it's handler error, which includes not training your dog to the appropriate level!

Don't ask me how I know, but I'm glad Flash was a forgiving dog....

FOM


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I've never crashed and burned in an AKC senior..... 

....... Never entered one. ;-)

However, if there's a crash and burn list for NAHRA intermediate tests, add my name to it...... many times:razz:


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

What do y'all think about the break? Fred's dog didn't break until the running dog broke and was re heeled. If Fred would have reheeled his dog(I couldn't tell how far he went) I think he would have been ok. Seen it many times. I saw one last fall where a dog went at least 1/4 of the way to the bird then came back to heel and passed! Looked like alot of confusion going on. Personally if mine break even a little they get a big ol NO! and back to the truck we go.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Actually, I was pretty impressed by a 15 month old dog in its first senior test. Sat on the whistle and handled reasonably well. Too bad about having a first time honor of a creeping dog that had to be re-heeled. Handler's inexperience definitely showed but still a solid middle of the pack senior hunter performance.


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## Steve Hamel (Mar 1, 2004)

Kristie hit the nail on the head. Hard to judge specifics because you can't see the dog in half the video. The dog would have probably been called back before the break on honor. I've seen plenty of worse performances. Was it sloppy work ? Yes 

Fred, nice 1st try. Clean up the work a bit and you'll be fine.

Steve


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

GulfCoast said:


> Aw shucks, if a dog has never humiliated you in front of 60 or 70 people, you just have not run many tests (or trials) yet!


That is why my wife will not come to a test with me.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

There were a lot of whistles indicating the dog was not sitting. I sure wouldn't expect to get called back.


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## BHB (Apr 28, 2008)

Breaking happens to a lot of us. My dog and I have never failed a senior test but we have failed our share of masters. Failed another one at that test that weekend. He broke on the honor as well, but it was a little harder to take since we got all the way to the 3rd series! 

BTW, I didn't read all the posts so I don't know if anyone mentioned this but in my limited experience I have noticed that dark upper clothing lets the dog see you better. My advice, lose the camo so that the dog can see you better.

BHB


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Along with the bouncing, might be a good idea to pay some attention to that little noise thing you got going on, Fred.
Quiet means quiet.

Perhaps some seminars might be helpful......


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Yeah, that bouncing is usually a bad sign and it escalates running too many tests in a row.


Totally agree, and some times I think people think that it will get better with experience, and it just keeps getting worse. Time for a break from the tests.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

The dog is green, which I would expect for fifteen months. Going just by the video, it appeared he wasn't ready for Senior. Too much lack of control and lack of focus. 

In the dog's defense on the slipped whistles, it was very windy he may have had a hard time hearing them.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Well I need to go to work now, wish Fred had seen this. So Fred, come on over and sit at the side of the lunch room with the cool kids. You're in


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Fred,

I too noticed the things in the holding area, etc.

But the big thing I noticed. SLOW DOWN!
1. before sending for the memory bird.
2. before sending on the blind.
3. whistle, sit, count to three - handle
Especially important with a young dog - helps focus. 

Be crisp and precise on your casts. What is your dog seeing?

Good first try though. Been there done that!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Hey Fred! Congrats on the effort. I've tried it 4 times and never got to the water marks. I moved too fast, knew too little, and accepted too much. You have a nice young dog, don't go where I did.

One off topic comment. My dog ALWAYS bounces. Not in the holding blind or walking to the line. He bounces to dinner, he bounces to bed, he bounces on walks. The only time he does NOT bounce is when he is running ahead of me to the line and blowing me off. So, I am happy to have a little bouncing going on. Thats when I know he is ready to work with me instead of going solo!


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

is Fred even around anymore?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

BHB said:


> . My advice, lose the camo so that the dog can see you better.
> 
> BHB


BHB' I believe Camo is sometimes required attire in AKC Hunt tests

Fred on the jumping issue in the holding blind and to the line, that will only lead to an out of control performance on the test.
Looks like this dog doesn't understand that "SIT MEANS SIT" {patent pending}


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

mjh345 said:


> BHB' I believe Camo is sometimes required attire in AKC Hunt tests
> 
> Fred on the jumping issue in the holding blind and to the line, that will only lead to an out of control performance on the test.
> Looks like this dog doesn't understand that "SIT MEANS SIT" {patent pending}


LOL

:lol::lol::lol:


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I believe Camo is sometimes required attire in AKC Hunt tests


 Those are HRC tests. In AKC it's camo or dark clothing. I wear black, but then I wear black anyway.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

david gibson said:


> is Fred even around anymore?


this thread alone got him plenty of hits on his you tube channel, just to watch his video...which may or may have not been the intent of the OP ...still see a couple of trucks and vans wrapped in vinyl with his website and number driving around town


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> this thread alone got him plenty of hits on his you tube channel, just to watch his video...which may or may have not been the intent of the OP ...still see a couple of trucks and vans wrapped in vinyl with his website and number driving around town


I watched it and then watched the "how to get your dog to sit on a Frisbee."

Fred narrates that he gets questions all the time and he was asked by some on in New Zealand how to get his dog to sit on a Frisbee as they don't have Sit Means Sit franchise in NZ.

Anywho usual Fred video showing the dog doing the trick but not actually teaching how the dog does the trick:roll::roll: Then Fred goes on to state go to a Sit Means Sit franchise near you to learn more. 

OMG!! HELLO!! The guy who asked the question lives in New Zealand which doesn't have a Sit Means Sit francies....and around- around we go.... :barf:


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Kasomor said:


> I watched it and then watched the "how to get your dog to sit on a Frisbee."....


Really?

I haven't seen it.

Is there by any chance, a video of how to get your dog to seat on a duck?


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Ah .... the humilaty bonds us all. Looks like Ken has called Fred into the club of figuring this whole thing out. Keep at it Fred.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> this thread alone got him plenty of hits on his you tube channel, just to watch his video...which may or may have not been the intent of the OP ...still see a couple of trucks and vans wrapped in vinyl with his website and number driving around town


 
Hats off to Fred for posting his Senior disappointment on his site, most people have a hard enough time admitting their failures to themselves, never mind hanging them out for the rest of the world to see.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

blind ambition said:


> Hats off to Fred for posting his Senior disappointment on his site, most people have a hard enough time admitting their failures to themselves, never mind hanging them out for the rest of the world to see.


i have to agree to a point - after all i have hung all my ill-conceived training ideas and concepts out for all to see, haven't i? the difference is i at least tell all, i don't just show results and not show the entire step-by-step process. 

fred just needs to understand that he on his own did an admirable job of developing a Jr retriever - and we all recognize that - - but to excel at a higher level he needs to listen to the main theme of retriever training and not try to reinvent the wheel - and not least of all not boast that he is the new king of retriever training with his "new" method.

to hail all the SitMeansSit hullabaloo like he has and then have a dog that breaks and bounces around like the "sing along with mitch" bouncing ball is both admirable that he exposed it for all to see but as well very telling that his "method" is not so ground breaking after all.

just like Ken said - he is just one of us! cool! but not a new savior....we already have a president to fill that roll...


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

David you just showed your age with that sing along with Mitch comment I remember him when I was a little kid.


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## Mattyj (Apr 17, 2009)

david gibson said:


> is Fred even around anymore?



I think that Fred has Ken on his ignore list. I don't know how it works but he may not be seeing any of this. I for one think it is great since I will be doing my first test next month and i'm sure, getting one step closer to cool.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEred just needs to understand that he on his own did an admirable job of developing a Jr retriever - and we all recognize that - - but to excel at a higher level he needs to listen to the main theme of retriever training and not try to reinvent the wheel - and not least of all not boast that he is the new king of retriever training with his "new" method.[/QUOTE]

15 month old pups fail senior tests all the time who's owners use Lardy ,,Gram, ect ect training programs. And they fail often enough to use the term " like crap through a goose".

And I never recalled him pushing his program. But I do remember everyone accusing him of that.

As always,,,fair and balanced

Pet peeve


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Pete said:


> [QUOTEred just needs to understand that he on his own did an admirable job of developing a Jr retriever - and we all recognize that - - but to excel at a higher level he needs to listen to the main theme of retriever training and not try to reinvent the wheel - and not least of all not boast that he is the new king of retriever training with his "new" method.


[/quote]15 month old pups fail senior tests all the time who's owners use Lardy ,,Gram, ect ect training programs. And they fail often enough to use the term " like crap through a goose".

And I never recalled him pushing his program. But I do remember everyone accusing him of that.

As always,,,fair and balanced

Pet peeve[/quote]

Correct, but most with 15 mo dogs that fail a Senior test haven't been on the best (IMO) field training website for months showing clips of his dogs doing parlor tricks, refusing to answer questions about his methods and being arrogant about it all at the same time.

The irony of the video is priceless

Sit means Sit regards,


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I just thought it was a great teaching video that everyone could learn from. So few of us video ourselves running a dog. And Fred made some very common rookie mistakes. If helpful polite constructive comments are read by the new folk a butt load of learnin’ could happen.
I am kind of bummed that Fred did not see any of this. I had the very best intentions. But if you can’t post for the ones you want, post for the ones your with. ‘Cause there’s a rose in a fisted glove…………..everyone sing!!

.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> But if you can’t post for the ones you want, post for the ones your with. ‘Cause there’s a rose in a fisted glove…………..everyone sing!!


That was way better than a cup of coffee.  

I'd have to add some additional experience to the effort. First of all, running a test nearby that is convenient with the rationale being "Let's see what happens." is not a wise approach. Secondly, "We're ready because the dog is performing well at the next level." is much better. 

Don't bother asking me how I "discovered" that. 

In addition, the "bouncing" dog will not become level headed by just getting older. 

Don't bother asking me.................  

There's more............much more............


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

When Fred posted videos of his passes everyone cryed to the admins and called it shameless advertising. Nice to see when he fails its perfectly exceptable to post.

Hypocracy of the democracy.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

Here's what I learned -in conjunction with having just watched the Rorem video on handling - 
Fred did just about everything opposite of what a professional does. Really made it sink in for me that I need to change my "act" from the moment the dog gets out of the truck until he gts back in.

Thanks for the "indirect pressure" on the handler ;-)


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Funny, but this wasn't posted by Fred and interestingly, all those logos aren't plastered all over this video.


The last video Fred posted had no logos. He linked directly to his iPhone upload page. It was removed the same day.

Nice try tho.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I was wondering if I saw another video from the comments I've read.

Fred looked a little nervous and his dog was probably feeding off of it. In the holding blind Fred was moving around acting nervous instead of being a font of calmness to the dog. But, on the way to the line Fred stopped his dog at least twice and reheeled him. The dog did not beat him by 20 feet to the line so Fred done OK there. Fred definitely showed nerves on the memory bird not appearing to know how to line his dog up with an bird and a gun in his hands. He showed a lack of smoothness but not the worst I've ever seen. Lining for the memory bird kinda sucked but maybe that's the best he could do with that dog in that situation. Me, I'da had him on the right side and taken a lot more time. Fred was fast but again, he wasn't worst I've seen. I bet he had at least a second of lining before he sent the dog .

Fred's blind wasn't as bad as I've heard commented on either. This is a senior dog and I pass him on that blind. The dog was influenced by the mark and started there. It took Fred two whistles to get the dog to take an over. IMO that's well within the standard for a senior dog. Master, maybe it's a little loose ;-). But even in master it wouldn't have been a zero. 

It wasn't until the break that I'da zero'd him out. Although, his marking score would have been bad and I'd like an understanding with my co-judge it wasn't a zero for this series. Without the break I'da brought him to water. He'd need better than minumum work to pass the test but I think he still could in my book, if it really was the way I thought it was from what I could see of the dog's work from the video.

So Fred proved he's human not some kind of retriever training God. 'Bout like the title of this thread says. 

Fred's gotta go work on line manners.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Anytime someone changes disciplines there is a learning curve. They must make a habit out of a new way of moving as to not miscue or confuse the dog. The mind can take quite a while to make these adjustments so that everything appears smooth and natural. The greatest retriever trainers would look like newbies if they switch over to Schutzhund or any other discipline for that matter.

It has little to do with dog training,,,it has everything to do with familiarity and forming new grooves in the mind.

The uncertainty and unfamiliarness eventual is over come with confidence.

peve


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

It took me a long time to download the video (over an hour)....I was really more interested in the test than I was in Fred and his dog....I enjoy taking a look at test set-ups whenever I can...

That said, I do have a couple of questions...

First of all, is it me or did the gunners in the go bird gunstation do an awful lot of moving around when Fred's dog was on his way and hunting for the bird? If you are a judge, is this acceptable? If you are a handler, is this acceptable?....For me the answer is/would be 'no' and 'no'....

Secondly, this is a question for Fred.... I noticed when watching your dog that he 'tapped' your hand with his muzzle quite frequently. And that you held your hand in front of you and your dog as you stood in the holding blind and also as you walked to the line. Is this a result of training your dog to target your hand, in order to keep him at heel? I thought it was very interesting that he did seem to target your hand quite a lot.

I'm with Howard..If I was a judge (which I am not) the blind you would have passed on, the marks you would have gotten low scores and would have had to have nearly perfect water marks. Bummer about the break!

Juli


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Juli H said:


> Secondly, this is a question for Fred.... I noticed when watching your dog that he 'tapped' your hand with his muzzle quite frequently. And that you held your hand in front of you and your dog as you stood in the holding blind and also as you walked to the line. Is this a result of training your dog to target your hand, in order to keep him at heel? I thought it was very interesting that he did seem to target your hand quite a lot.
> 
> Juli


It's a shame you cant download more of his videos. You could probably tell what's going on with the dog and the training method better than most..


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

Juli H said:


> Secondly, this is a question for Fred.... I noticed when watching your dog that he 'tapped' your hand with his muzzle quite frequently. And that you held your hand in front of you and your dog as you stood in the holding blind and also as you walked to the line. Is this a result of training your dog to target your hand, in order to keep him at heel? I thought it was very interesting that he did seem to target your hand quite a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> Juli


That's the hand where the snausages are held.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Chris Miller said:


> That's the hand where the snausages are held.


Maybe, or it could be the hand that was used during FF.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> It's a shame you cant download more of his videos. You could probably tell what's going on with the dog and the training method better than most..


Perhaps, ... I enjoy watching dog body language. A lot can be deciphered about a dog's general temperment, demeanor, attitude, and even training, just by watching him.....

but something to consider (for anyone training a dog to target their hand for heeling to the line) ...If the dog is looking at the handler's hand as a target, that means that he is not looking out into the field. When you walk your dog to the line, and he is calm (or relatively calm) you are giving him the opportunity to really focus on the lay of the land. I think this is extremely important for the walk up test, (as well as a 'non walk-up' situation). I think possibly that Fred's dog was feeling a little like he was being pulled in two directions. If Fred were able to get the dog to heel w/out the need to target Fred's hand, I think the dog may have gotten a better idea of 'what was out there'...

just a thought.

Juli


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Juli H said:


> Perhaps, ... I enjoy watching dog body language. A lot can be deciphered about a dog's general temperment, demeanor, attitude, and even training, just by watching him.....
> 
> but something to consider (for anyone training a dog to target their hand for heeling to the line) ...If the dog is looking at the handler's hand as a target, that means that he is not looking out into the field. When you walk your dog to the line, and he is calm (or relatively calm) you are giving him the opportunity to really focus on the lay of the land. I think this is extremely important for the walk up test, (as well as a 'non walk-up' situation). I think possibly that Fred's dog was feeling a little like he was being pulled in two directions. If Fred were able to get the dog to heel w/out the need to target Fred's hand, I think the dog may have gotten a better idea of 'what was out there'...
> 
> ...


I'm pritty sure the dogs not trained to sniff and focus on his hand, he just happened to do it in that video. I have never seen a dog yet that could hold a tight heel while not pay attention to the handler? Isn't that what you teach during leash training when you continually make turns and correct the dog with choke collar? So they will predict the turns by focusing on the handler?

Attention to the handler is part of Freds method according to the name.. "The Art Of Attention"


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> I'm pritty sure the dogs not trained to sniff and focus on his hand, he just happened to do it in that video. I have never seen a dog yet that could hold a tight heel while not pay attention to the handler? Isn't that what you teach during leash training when you continually make turns and correct the dog with choke collar? So they will predict the turns by focusing on the handler?
> 
> Attention to the handler is part of Freds method according to the name.. "The Art Of Attention"


 
Whether the dog was trained or not trained to target Fred's hand, I guess doesn't matter...In the end, when he is focusing on Fred's hand, he is not focusing on his surroundings.

Certainly dogs can be taught to heel without having to continually look at their handler. Walking to the line at a hunt test isn't an obedience match. Dogs can hear and 'sense' where they are in relation to the handler, w/out having to repeatedly look at them. Yes, they will from time to time 'check in'...but I would not want my dog looking at me (or away from the field) so frequently.

Juli


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

If it was going to affect anything it would be the marking. I don't see any problems with Chargers marking ability, and I have seen all the videos.

Looked like the other guys dog broke and he yelled then Charger bolted, but I can't really tell.

Sh## happens..

Regards,


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I have never seen a dog yet that could hold a tight heel while not pay attention to the handler?


"Never?" Then you have "never" seen any well-trained dogs.

Can you eat and read at the same time? Or must you pay attention where in your face you are putting your food? For most of us, eating is one of many conditioned behaviors such that we do not have to pay conscious attention to it when we do it. (Origin of the famed insult "Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?")

So is heeling with well-trained dogs. Juli H. is correct, the dog is unconsciously heeling while consciously surmising the field. The well-trained dog does not have to think about heeling, it just does it. It is thinking about the test ("Where are the flyer crates?!?").

How many All-Age stakes at field trials have you seen Packleader? Any? I ask not as an insult, but just out of curiosity. The dogs at All-Age stakes, especially the experienced dogs, are at the epitome of training. (Unfortunately novices can't even recognize but a tiny percentage of it, but that is beside the point.)


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Looked like the other guys dog broke and he yelled then Charger bolted, but I can't really tell.


No. The working dog had a monster creep (the butt never came off the ground). The handler reheeled, and Charger broke.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

AmiableLabs said:


> "Never?" Then you have "never" seen any well-trained dogs.
> 
> Can you eat and read at the same time? Or must you pay attention where in your face you are putting your food? For most of us, eating is one of many conditioned behaviors such that we do not have to pay conscious attention to it when we do it. (Origin of the famed insult "Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?")
> 
> ...


To me a well trained dog heels at attention and runs where I point him. Fred's wife has several videos of her dog Tank heeling at attention and taking blue ribbons in ob. She passed her SR test???

Perhaps one of you could post a video and show me how its done? 

Looking at the body language that the other handler used as a cue "looked like a fake leash correction" got his dog back into the heel position. Fred used his hand so what...


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> If it was going to affect anything it would be the marking. I don't see any problems with Chargers marking ability, and I have seen all the videos.
> 
> If he didn't have a problem marking then why did he have to do all that handling on the memory bird. In his other videos he wasn't doing a walk up and they were all singles it's important on a walk up as in any marks that the dog is looking out in the field and not at you.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

here you go this guy teaches well....amazing what you can find on You Tube, dont know if its from the Mike Lardy video series or not but it answers a question that many newbies on here should listen to

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=f50X0iIbBh0&feature=related


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> To me a well trained dog heels at attention and runs where I point him. Fred's wife has several videos of her dog Tank heeling at attention and taking blue ribbons in ob. She passed her SR test???


To me, a well trained dog does what the situation requires - which would mean attention heeling in the obedience ring, but the dog looking out ahead and around in the field. 

I don't want my dog staring at me in the field...nor do I want my dog staring at the crowd or the judge in the obedience ring. Yes, you can indeed have both in the same dog, with the same Heel command no less! Dogs know the difference, in fact they can learn this very easily (well, my Tollers and Chessies can, I've never trained a Lab...)


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Bon when I clicked on that I got the Lardy video did you put that on there to show the SAR e-collar training with Pack Leader that one was like the Blair Witch video


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Scott Parker said:


> Bon when I clicked on that I got the Lardy video did you put that on there to show the SAR e-collar training with Pack Leader that one was like the Blair Witch video


I just found the Lardy video and wanted to share it...I found it using the search engine on you tube...dont know anything about the Packleader video


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

If you look over to the side at the related videos PL has one on e-collar training


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I think it's great that Fred is getting out there and testing his approach to training a retriever. We have been just a bunch of people talking, and for all he knows we're just hopelessly dogmatic and wedded to ideas that aren't necessarily effective. But he'll learn from his dog if he's a fraction of the trainer he purports to be. 

Amy Dahl


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think what this video shows those who have not actually run yet, is when you think your dog can do a double and a blind that factors such as the wind, the effect of a flyer, suction of the gunners, the repetition of running a lot of events with a young dog, and the excitement of knowing they are running at a test and without a collar changes the performance of the dog. You hear "he never did that in training". Keep running tests trying to get that title and the line manners really erode and then you have twice the work getting them under control and what you were doing in training will not work anymore. 

As far as the walk up, yes, some people really have a problem getting the dog to look out if they are doing other venues simultaneously such as obedience and agility where the dog learns to focus too much on the handler and not in the field as they will miss that double go off. This is why a person should be running master level in training before attempting senior. Holding the wind and holding hills are part of young dog training and you will run into that in senior.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> If it was going to affect anything it would be the marking. I don't see any problems with Chargers marking ability. . . .


Did you see Charger needing to handle on the memory mark on a double? That is a "problem."



PackLeader said:


> Perhaps one of you could post a video and show me how its done?


Perhaps you can attend a field trial or two and just watch and see?

Look, we are not a bunch of mean people. By and large we are just like everyone else (Gooser being the exception ;-)). There are perfectly rational explanations for why you and Fred got the receptions you did here. To those who do know what they are talking about, it is obvious when someone else does or does not know. Just like anything. If you are a woodcarver and someone comes along saying they also carve wood but can't tell you the difference between kinds of wood, how long are you going to take his lectures and advice before you try and put him in his place?

Get out and see what WE are talking about.

Apparently Fred has.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

he'll do better next time....as long as next time is not for a month or 2. LOTS to work on there.-Paul


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Everyone sees something different. On the memory bird it looked like Fred lined him up with his hand like he always does. But he was not paying attention and his dog wasnt sitting straight. He took off in the direction he was sitting. If Fred would have said heel one more time the dog would have turned a little more, sit properly, and run in the direction he was facing.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Everyone sees something different. On the memory bird it looked like Fred lined him up with his hand like he always does. But he was not paying attention and his dog wasnt sitting straight. He took off in the direction he was sitting. If Fred would have said heel one more time the dog would have turned a little more, sit properly, and run in the direction he was facing.


Oooh!!!! I soooo should not post to this thread, but....

...are you saying on a double at a Senior HT it's "point and shoot" with your dog? At what point is the dog responsible for marking the bird??!!???

** I'm in way digging at Fred's performance & everyone knows how much I've crashed & burned. ** The post from PL just doesn't make sense to me and I still wonder if he actually trains and runs tests or just posts!!! 

M


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> He took off in the direction he was sitting.


Yup, Fred didn't take enough time to line his dog on the memory bird. He acted confused with a bird and a gun plus line the dog up. 



> If Fred would have said heel one more time the dog would have turned a little more, sit properly, and run in the direction he was facing


.

When the dog has made up it's mind to go the wrong way we, as handlers, have to change his mind and send him to where the bird is. Lots easier said than done. I wouldn't guarantee that one more, "Heel," would have done it. Also, there's nothing that says a dog can't line up with you and then go to where it wants to go as soon as you send them.

Dog and handler both need more work. But they are working.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Miriam Wade said:


> Oooh!!!! I soooo should not post to this thread, but....
> 
> ...are you saying on a double at a Senior HT it's "point and shoot" with your dog? At what point is the dog responsible for marking the bird??!!???
> 
> ...


Obviously the dog was marking the wrong fall. What do you do let him run the wrong way? It makes perfect sense to line the dog up when you see him looking at the wrong mark.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

PL - did you see David Gibson's video yet?

That shows a dog that can heel and look into the field at the same time. Once, not long after they leave the holding blind, Brady looks at David (presumably David told him to heal - my speakers don't work, so I can't hear anything)....otherwise David has little issue with Brady heeling to the line...Although if I was David, I would have gone a little more slowly, to give Brady a chance to get a good look around him..although from the delay between the time he gets to the line and the birds are thrown indicates that David did let Brady settle in and scope things out - remember no pointing out the gun stations, but you can certainly let your dog sit there for a few seconds....

Juli


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Good point, Miriam. For someone like PL who has never trained for nor even seen a HT/FT other than video footage, it is hard to make the transition from their particular training/venues to understand what they are seeing. Sort of the reverse of what Fred and PL have said about their own videos. Why don't we get what it is they are doing with their tapping training method? Because there isn't much shared point of contact for reference between what they have been doing and how field retrievers are trained, in general. Fred has jumped in with both feet and is going to have to figure it out as he goes. Packleader hasn't gotten that far, yet.


Yeah yeah you all said the same crap about Fred..Then it tore yall apart to see him having so much success that you had to bash him out of the forum. Then soon as he failed one you start a new thread about him.

What are you going to say when you see him at the nationals? 

You have never seen my field dog or my training methods so how do you know what I can and cant do..You dont!


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Juli H said:


> PL - did you see David Gibson's video yet?
> 
> That shows a dog that can heel and look into the field at the same time. Once, not long after they leave the holding blind, Brady looks at David (presumably David told him to heal - my speakers don't work, so I can't hear anything)....otherwise David has little issue with Brady heeling to the line...Although if I was David, I would have gone a little more slowly, to give Brady a chance to get a good look around him..although from the delay between the time he gets to the line and the birds are thrown indicates that David did let Brady settle in and scope things out - remember no pointing out the gun stations, but you can certainly let your dog sit there for a few seconds....
> 
> Juli


I never said they have to heel at attention to the line. You train for the most control and hope you get half of that on test day..

Look at Tank at his SR test. He was trained to heel at attention but he never does on the way to the line..


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah yeah you all said the same crap about Fred..Then it tore yall apart to see him having so much success that you had to bash him out of the forum. Then soon as he failed one you start a new thread about him.QUOTE]
> 
> You really are joking. Aren't you? ROFLMAO!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> What are you going to say when you see him at the nationals?


Which national? The Master National or the National Championship?

FOM


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Jamie, 

i'm almost afraid to ask, but did you join Yankee Waterfowlers HRC?-Paul


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Obviously the dog was marking the wrong fall. What do you do let him run the wrong way? It makes perfect sense to line the dog up when you see him looking at the wrong mark.


There really is no wrong fall-you can get the birds in any order you want, but the dog can't go back to the same area of the fall such as a flyer if he has already retrieved it. Typical young dog response if he hasn't gotten flyers in training. The flyer is much more exciting than a dead bird and they influence the test by the dog sucking back. True, a good handler lines up the direction he is standing toward the fall of the next bird he wants to retrieve so when the dog comes in he is automatically lined up correctly for the next bird. Heeling on both sides intensifies the direction of the fall to retrieve next; however, the dog may decide to go back and you have to handle him to the correct bird even if you line him up correctly.

You should at least go and watch a HT so you understand.


> What are you going to say when you see him at the nationals?


At some point it should be sinking in that qualifying for any kind of national is a long ways away.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

brandywinelabs said:


> PackLeader said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah yeah you all said the same crap about Fred..Then it tore yall apart to see him having so much success that you had to bash him out of the forum. Then soon as he failed one you start a new thread about him.QUOTE]
> ...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> No i'm not joking because I got included in a PM from Chris to Fred about the numerous complaints he recevied about Fred and his videos.


 
Do you want to start with PM's people send????? I will be happy to post the one you sent to me. There is good reason your included....


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Everyone sees something different. On the memory bird it looked like Fred lined him up with his hand like he always does. But he was not paying attention and his dog wasnt sitting straight. He took off in the direction he was sitting. If Fred would have said heel one more time the dog would have turned a little more, sit properly, and run in the direction he was facing.


 
If if's and but's were candy and nuts oh what a Christmas we would have


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Corey-

Did PL send you a rotten tomato PM? Surely not Greg?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Pals said:


> Corey-
> 
> Did PL send you a rotten tomato PM? Surely not Greg?


Yeah PL, NOT GREG!!! SORRY. FIXED
PL can't play nice without sending fowl mouthed PM's and threats


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

PL Charger looks like a really good dog I'm sure if he had a good trainer he would be passing senior test by now so I can't fault the dog for his performance.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

QUOTE=PackLeader;585386]Yeah yeah you all said the same crap about Fred. Then it tore yall apart to see him having so much success that you had to bash him out of the forum. [/QUOTE]

That is what I was ROFLMAO.
I wish him success, but get real!


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> Yeah PL, NOT GREG!!! SORRY. FIXED
> PL can't play nice without sending fowl mouthed PM's and threats


Yeah I send out so many threats. More BS...

Badbullgator,

"It doesn't mean that much to me to mean that much to you."

regards,


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I don't think the intent of this thread was to truly point out issues, but that is my opinion. If Fred wanted his "what not to do" videos on RTF, then I would leave it up to him. 

I had an opportunity to judge Charger and he is a roller but tries to do the right thing. I know Fred gets the butterflies walking to the line and that is great. Whatever method he uses to train dogs, he is learning that he will need to tweak it for the dog games. I will say that Charger's OB has improved since the end of February test, by watching the video (still work to do). His wife has a nice dog whose obedience was impeccable until the live flyers and such were introduced in his life. He started to loosen up and that is just a matter of exposure and training. 

Some of the undertones regarding Fred and his business is just plain BS, and only turns off people from the games and this board. You and I know that there is a big difference making a dog sit at home and have general obedience for Mom and Pop versus hunt tests and trials. If his training is not in-line with widely adopted programs, so what. I think Amy Dahl said it best in her post.

I am just glad to see some new faces in the games, whether they are promoting themselves, improving a hunting dog, fun, etc.... Indirectly, he exposes LVHRC to new folks that might be interested too.

.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

kjrice said:


> I am just glad to see some new faces in the games, whether they are promoting themselves, improving a hunting dog, fun, etc.... Indirectly, he exposes LVHRC to new folks that might be interested too.


Always a good thing. And the more success Fred has, the more people he can and will want to bring into the game. The more the better -- for the sport, for the hunters, for the dogs, and for conservation.

Fred will learn. Just by doing he has taken the first steps.

That is why my argument is more with PL. He should shut up and try it like Fred is doing.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

AmiableLabs said:


> Always a good thing. And the more success Fred has, the more people he can and will want to bring into the game. The more the better -- for the sport, for the hunters, for the dogs, and for conservation.
> 
> Fred will learn. Just by doing he has taken the first steps.
> 
> That is why my argument is more with PL. He should shut up and try it like Fred is doing.


Hey leave PL alone, even Ray Charles could see his dog is blind.;-)


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah I send out so many threats. More BS...
> 
> Badbullgator,
> 
> ...


I would be happy to forward it to anyone who would like to see it

so much for BS regards


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> I would be happy to forward it to anyone who would like to see it
> 
> so much for BS regards


Heck ya!!! Send it out here- so far all this yoyo has demonstrated that he can do is type and give Fred his daily reacharound. Maybe he has some talent as a poison penner that we could exploit.

Better than as The Turd Whirls regards

Bubba


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> I would be happy to forward it to anyone who would like to see it
> 
> so much for BS regards


It takes alot of courage to call someone you never met a clown over the internet... 

Forward it to the president, I never threatened you..


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> I would be happy to forward it to anyone who would like to see it
> 
> so much for BS regards


I'd like it might need some bedroom talk material.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Well if it comes down to fisticuffs between PL and BBG my moneys on Corey.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes, indeed, Fred is now learning the complete, awesome, overwhelming power of, birds.
Makes even the strongest among us, pitifully weak, and helpless.....

BTW, isn't Charger a Chopper pup????
Better stop running when so young, he will eat your lunch....;-)


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Yes, indeed, Fred is now learning the complete, awesome, overwhelming power of, birds.
> Makes even the strongest among us, pitifully weak, and helpless.....
> 
> BTW, isn't Charger a Chopper pup????
> Better stop running when so young, he will eat your lunch....;-)


I think he is a DB Cracker....


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> It takes alot of courage to call someone you never met a clown over the internet...
> 
> Forward it to the president, I never threatened you..


 
Soooooo, because I asked you just how many field dogs you had trained since you are so qualified to offer advice and used a







, you felt it was a good idea to call be names and tell me to die among other things?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

AmiableLabs said:


> Fred will learn just by doing.
> 
> That is why my argument is more with PL. He should shut up and try it like Fred is doing.


Seeing we have so many knowledgeable posters here perhaps one of you would like to tell me..

What is Fred's e-collar teaching method and how does it apply to field training?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

kjrice said:


> I think he is a DB Cracker....


EE says NFC AFC Clubmead's Road Warrior X Bn's Do It Zippy Star


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> EE says NFC AFC Clubmead's Road Warrior X Bn's Do It Zippy Star


That was it! Yes a roller....


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> What is Fred's e-collar teaching method and how does it apply to field training?


OMG!!!
Hahahahaha...
Get off the computer now, Charlotte...


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

duk4me said:


> I'd like it might need some bedroom talk material.



if thats your idea of bedroom talk material then thats all i need to know!!! TMI!! .. ;-)


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

david gibson said:


> if thats your idea of bedroom talk material then thats all i need to know!!! TMI!! .. ;-)


LOL!!!! indeed!
;-)
Juli


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

cakaiser said:


> OMG!!!
> Hahahahaha...
> Get off the computer now, Charlotte...


I cant I'm waiting for Fed-Ex.. 

Then i'm going to go make some videos of what I been working on. Then you can tell me how much I dont know, after you see it...

Like Fred I'm not affraid to show it good or bad..


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

david gibson said:


> if thats your idea of bedroom talk material then thats all i need to know!!! TMI!! .. ;-)


Hell David surely we can find something good out of this. BTW nice work on your vid thread.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

must...............bite...............tongue...............must............not............respond..............


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't know what his methods are but the results seem to be that the dog jumps around doesn't mark well, handles poorly and breaks.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> No i'm not joking because I got included in a PM from Chris to Fred about the numerous complaints he recevied about Fred and his videos.


That is because you are Fred's little buddy and his wing man. You wait for Fred to post and then keep posting non-sense into his posts to keep them on the top. It is not hard to follow.

Btw, memory birds are marks. You are testing the dogs marking ability not how they are lined. NO excuses for the dog going the wrong direction, that just means he did not mark the bird and should have been scored appropriately.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I was very happy to see Fred's posts when he ran his junior tests and thought he did a creditable job on his first senior given a young dog and and his own inexperience. Having videos of those events is a good resource for anyone approaching AKC junior and senior tests for the first time. Having David's video, with its diagram, is an even better resource despite the absence of any commercials to go along with the post. Having videos that incorporate loud commercials gets tiring after the first few repetitions. I hope that Fred continues to play the game, learn and help others benefit from what he learns. I would love to see him remain active on the forum, but not if it is to be used as a billboard for his business. Many of us are in business to some extent in ways that relate to our dog activities, whether that is a primary business or a way of offsetting some of the costs of an expensive hobby. However, you don't see those people promoting their business in quite so pushy a manner. 

Hopefully Packleader will decide to play also. However, for now he seems unaware of the fact that Entry Express makes much of our records of achievement and failure a matter of public record. Thus, we know about four of Fred's events. We know that David's dog passed his first Masters test at the age of 19 months and had his Senior title when he was 15 months old, about the age when Fred's dog passed his third junior test. If Fred turns up as a competitor in either the Master National or the National, I would personally say congratulations. 

I think most of the posts on Fred's participation in hunt tests began by congratulating him on joining the game. That was also clearly the case when Ken posted the video of Fred's first senior test. It was not a gotcha moment, it was more of a moment of "Welcome to the hazards of the road we all travel." If Packleader decides to put his dog into the ring, I suspect most would offer him congratulations as well. But for now, EE shows no entries at all under the name Genereux (Jamie - if you want to check mine you need to check under variants of both John and Jeff Goodwin.).

Correction: For the record, Brady earned his SH at 10 months.


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## mjiorle (Mar 11, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Heck ya!!! Send it out here- so far all this yoyo has demonstrated that he can do is type and give Fred his daily reacharound. Maybe he has some talent as a poison penner that we could exploit.
> 
> Better than as The Turd Whirls regards
> 
> Bubba



I believe that's the funniest thing I've read on this forum since joining!!!!!!!! LMFAO

Mike


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Pals said:


> must...............bite...............tongue...............must............not............respond..............


 
Holy Moses, Nancy! Is that blood I see splattered all over my screen? 

ewwwwwww....... 

Juli


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Joe Brakke said:


> That is because you are Fred's little buddy and his wing man. You wait for Fred to post and then keep posting non-sense into his posts to keep them on the top. It is not hard to follow.


OMG

The thread was like 5 pages deep and three days old before I even posted! 

You guys a too much man..


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Yeah it went from me complimenting Juli on her ability to read Fred's dog to s### slinging, jock measuring contest.

Regards,


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

PackLeader said:


> When Fred posted videos of his passes everyone cryed to the admins and called it shameless advertising. Nice to see when he fails its perfectly exceptable to post.
> 
> Hypocracy of the democracy.





PackLeader said:


> Yeah it went from me complimenting Juli on her ability to read Fred's dog to s### slinging, jock measuring contest.
> 
> Regards,


I'm not sure where in your first post (see above) you complimented anyone.....


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

YardleyLabs said:


> I'm not sure where in your first post (see above) you complimented anyone.....


Yes I was instructed by an admin no more SMS videos. I guess this one slipped by. Just coincidence.

I'm done posting now before I get accused of keeping the thread up..


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

YardleyLabs said:


> I think most of the posts on Fred's participation in hunt tests began by congratulating him on joining the game. That was also clearly the case when Ken posted the video of Fred's first senior test. It was not a gotcha moment, it was more of a moment of "Welcome to the hazards of the road we all travel." If Packleader decides to put his dog into the ring, I suspect most would offer him congratulations as well. But for now, EE shows no entries at all under the name Genereux (Jamie - if you want to check mine you need to check under variants of both John and Jeff Goodwin.).
> 
> Correction: For the record, Brady earned his SH at 10 months.


cool, over 140 posts and somebody gets it!!!
Yea I know more than 1 person got it...
And Jamie, I am going to use my Samuel Jackson voice now. The breakfast at the restaurant scene from Pulp Fiction, remember it?
*....................... CHILL……..*

.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> cool, over 140 posts and somebody gets it!!!
> Yea I know more than 1 person got it...
> And Jamie, I am going to use my Samuel Jackson voice now. The breakfast at the restaurant scene from Pulp Fiction, remember it?
> *....................... CHILL……..*
> ...


oh dude that is soooooo good. way to invoke (evoke?) a great movie scene into reality......and what a scene that was for Samuel......


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

FOM said:


> Which national? The Master National or the National Championship?
> 
> FOM


The "SIT MEANS SIT" National


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Many years ago, I saved a thread with a title that carried the "rest of the story". 

*"Or Does It?" (link)*


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I have so much work to do......................I taped myself training today.

When did I get so lazy as a handler? Cripes.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

david gibson said:


> oh dude that is soooooo good. way to invoke (evoke?) a great movie scene into reality......and what a scene that was for Samuel......



I Beg to differ!


The quintessential "Samuel Jackson" scene from pulp fiction....Was the kitchen scene with "bret"


_Say what again! what aint no country I ever heard of... they speak english in what???_

Best scene of the whole movie!


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