# eye contact ?



## PatDuck (Jan 12, 2014)

I made a lot of mistakes with my last dog as he was the first I have ever trained. One of my pet peeves with him is that when I sit him on the whistle when he gets off line of a downed bird, he will turn, sit and sometimes he is looking at everything but me. Drives me nuts but eventually he looks, then I cast him. I did some research and found some info on training eye contact. Some use clickers and treats and reward eye contact. Anyone tried training it? The only downfall I could see is if he is looking at you when he should be marking. I was thinking of teaching it with my new pup using the command "watch". That way if his eyes wander I can use it. Maybe im over thinking it. Just curious if any of you guys have tried teaching it? Thanks for any input


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

I use mark on marks. When you sit him and he is not watching you use recall then sit again. It's the same as if your dog doesn't sit squarely to you on a remote sit.


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## rotcsig443 (Apr 8, 2013)

I had the same thing happen with my first lab and she still drives me nuts doing it. Started enforcing eye contact at 6 weeks with the pup after her and it helped a ton with her sitting square and to stare a hole through me on remote sits waiting to be casted. Additionally, it didn't cause her to look at/watch me for a mark because if taught properly she will be able to recognize the difference in being released to retrieve a mark and looking at you for a command.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

PatDuck,

I notice that a couple weeks ago you inquired about Hillmann's puppy program. If you decided to go with Hillmann then you will learn that focus is an important element of his methods, and in particular, is incorporated into the way he teaches "sit". The early sit work progresses into remote sit work as distance and duration are gradually increased. This blends into his Traffic Cop technique. Focus on the handler is a key element of all of this work. By the time you begin introducing retrieve objects and remote releases to retrieve to this sequence, you will have taught a very young puppy that he is required to be 100% focused on you before being released (cast) for the retrieve. The retrieve itself is a very strong reinforcer of this behavior.

If you are not following Hillmann, be sure to require focus on you during your remote sit training right from the beginning. This can be reinforced with almost any form of reward that you use in your training.

Regarding your experience with your first (older) dog, there may be two areas to consider in terms of mistakes to avoid this time around with your new pup. The first is teaching focus on you as part of all your remote sit training. The second is avoidance behavior. A dog that is looking away, avoiding eye contact, could be exhibiting avoidance, which is sign of distress from confusion or inability to deal with perceived pressure of the situation.

Good luck!

Jim


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## Longgun (Sep 19, 2009)

I use eye contact in every day life. The dogs must look at me before I release them for their food, they must look at me before I let them out of the kennel and before I let them out of crates. They also have to look at me before I give them treats which is a good way to teach eye contact. Eye contact should be part of life not just an occurrence during field work.
deb


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

T-Pines said:


> PatDuck,
> 
> I notice that a couple weeks ago you inquired about Hillmann's puppy program. If you decided to go with Hillmann then you will learn that focus is an important element of his methods, and in particular, is incorporated into the way he teaches "sit". The early sit work progresses into remote sit work as distance and duration are gradually increased. This blends into his Traffic Cop technique. Focus on the handler is a key element of all of this work. By the time you begin introducing retrieve objects and remote releases to retrieve to this sequence, you will have taught a very young puppy that he is required to be 100% focused on you before being released (cast) for the retrieve. The retrieve itself is a very strong reinforcer of this behavior.
> 
> ...


Good answer. If you follow this program the focus just comes naturally. They want to watch you even when you walk away from them! I first start with the clicker and treats.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I use eye contact from the moment I bring the puppy home at seven weeks old. And yes, I use treats to train the behavior. Every time the puppy looks at me I say the word "yes" in a happy voice and give him a treat - actually several treats. I become the human Pez dispenser. My word "Yes" is in lieu of a clicker. Too many people don't get the timing of a clicker just right. So I teach the word "yes". I start this when the puppy is in sitting. I work this to where they are not watching my hands, as they soon figure out where the treats are coming from. I can put my hands behind my back, out to the sides etc. And the dogs eyes remain on my face. I then shape this behavior by putting treats out to the side of the puppy on little white plates. I put them a few feet out and start with one side at a time. This is my intro the casting that I can do in my living room even when the snow is a few feet deep. They do not good dinner, treats etc. without making eye contact. By the time you get to the yard, It is a well-trained behavior. Everything is happy happy happy. There are no negative corrections. I make a game out of everything. Casting behaviors I stretch out and use On an abandoned baseball diamond.  

I remember Jim Van Engen calling me about gavel, asking me if I had done a lot of three handed casting with him. I asked him why he wanted to do know and his response was, well he really likes it! I had done Gav's force fetch and initial yard work. And that is what you want to see in order to progress your puppy.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm dog doesn't look at me, I might try one more whistle; then cast, he doesn't do the correct cast, whistle, sit, (NO!) correction; cast again. Dog doesn't move-doesn't look; toot toot toot, whistle-sit, (No!) correction; re-cast. Dog finally takes the correct cast, whistle-sit and looks at you (Good). Once you get into this type of advanced training; The gauntlet has been thrown; and you might have to do this a bunch of times in succession, to get the point across. However This is an avoidance behavior; Dog needs to learn it's his responsibility to look, or there are consequences.

Eye contact training etc. is puppy work; can work with puppies; but when it happens an advanced trained dog who knows what is expected and is avoiding looking at you, becuz they simply don't want to (aka blowing you off).

If you don't feel comfortable doing this yourself, fear you might mess the dog up, or think something else is going on I'd suggest having a professional evaluate the dog, and teach you how to work your dog through this. Any intelligent dog at any level will try eye avoidance, every once in awhile; Many highly advanced dogs will do it to see what they can get away with when they run for different handlers. It's a test on how the handler will respond, fail the test and they pretty much know they can run the show.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Hmm dog doesn't look at me, I might try one more whistle; then cast, he doesn't do the correct cast, whistle, sit, (NO!) correction; cast again. Dog doesn't move-doesn't look; toot toot toot, whistle-sit, (No!) correction; re-cast. Dog finally takes the correct cast, whistle-sit and looks at you (Good). Once you get into this type of advanced training; The gauntlet has been thrown; and you might have to do this a bunch of times in succession, to get the point across. However This is an avoidance behavior; Dog needs to learn it's his responsibility to look, or there are consequences.
> 
> Eye contact training etc. is puppy work; but what your describing is an advanced trained dog who knows what is expected and is avoiding looking at you, becuz he doesn't want to (aka blowing you off).
> 
> If you don't feel comfortable doing this yourself, or think something else is going on I'd suggest having a professional evaluate the dog, and teach you how to work your dog through this.


_I was thinking of teaching it with my new pup using the command "watch". That way if his eyes wander I can use it. Maybe im over thinking it. Just curious if any of you guys have tried teaching it? Thanks for any input
_
This is what people are responding to.... he doesn't want to create another dog that avoids looking at him.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> _I was thinking of teaching it with my new pup using the command "watch". That way if his eyes wander I can use it. Maybe im over thinking it. Just curious if any of you guys have tried teaching it? Thanks for any input
> _
> This is what people are responding to.... he doesn't want to create another dog that avoids looking at him.


I guess I loss that in the different people with dogs not looking at them and the developed habit... not enough coffee 

In any case sure go for it; do it with a pup, everything is exciting and fun with a youngster that wants to learn; any game-training increases their awareness and brain development. Still understand eventually eye contact will have to come with enforcement, it's a natural avoidance behavior that pops up at all levels, whether you've done eye contact training or not.


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## derrekg123 (Jan 7, 2014)

found this on youtube from the master himself


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## ehf (May 13, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> _I was thinking of teaching it with my new pup using the command "watch". That way if his eyes wander I can use it. Maybe im over thinking it. Just curious if any of you guys have tried teaching it? Thanks for any input
> _
> This is what people are responding to.... he doesn't want to create another dog that avoids looking at him.


I teach watch very early on. I use food treats to reward it. I mark it with a clicker and a yes I phase the clicker out later. I teach
watch at a heel position also in front. as I move back I reward with a ball.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

derrekg123 said:


> found this on youtube from the master himself


Too bad he doesn't demonstrate with a dog!


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## PatDuck (Jan 12, 2014)

T-Pines said:


> PatDuck,
> 
> I notice that a couple weeks ago you inquired about Hillmann's puppy program. If you decided to go with Hillmann then you will learn that focus is an important element of his methods, and in particular, is incorporated into the way he teaches "sit". The early sit work progresses into remote sit work as distance and duration are gradually increased. This blends into his Traffic Cop technique. Focus on the handler is a key element of all of this work. By the time you begin introducing retrieve objects and remote releases to retrieve to this sequence, you will have taught a very young puppy that he is required to be 100% focused on you before being released (cast) for the retrieve. The retrieve itself is a very strong reinforcer of this behavior.
> 
> ...



Good advise thank you. And yes I am planning on using hillmanns style of training. The avoidance with my older dog is part of one of my mistakes with him I believe. He has never really been very driven to hunt or retrieve. I jumped into a litter when I bought him. A litter that was not very well bred with hunting or trials in the pedigree (dumb move), i was totally ignorant TBO. He will take any command you give him but hes never been real birdy or crazy about the game. He doesn't mind retrieving and in fact hes retrieved hundreds of ducks in his day but, I think he would be fine with it if he didn't if that explains the avoidance. Im a very high drive hunter and had pipe dreams about him being the same. Anyways, ive done a ton of research, talked to several trainers/ breeders and Im getting a pup out of a fantastic blood line with a great pedigree of champions so hopefully im starting on the right track this time. Right now im just trying to suck up as much info as i can. This site is a great resource and has been a great help.


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## Quacktastic (Oct 4, 2013)

Sit on the whistle.....if he started looking around...give a nick and another whistle simultaneously. Then cast. If he still keeps looking around. Whistle and nick again. He will figure it out pretty quick. I had the same issue with my young dog


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## Longgun (Sep 19, 2009)

It is never to late to teach the older dog about watch, just use the same method of treats and reward. When treating for watch I always put the treat to my mouth first so that is where their focus is. When field training and they don't give you I contact do what ever it takes to get their attention and then occasionally throw them a happy bumper. This will tell them that good things happen when I look, but don't do it every time as they then start thinking that is what will always happen.
deb


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## Longgun (Sep 19, 2009)

It is never to late to teach the older dog about watch, just use the same method of treats and reward. When treating for watch I always put the treat to my mouth first so that is where their focus is. When field training and they don't give you I contact do what ever it takes to get their attention and then occasionally throw them a happy bumper. This will tell them that good things happen when I look, but don't do it every time as they then start thinking that is what will always happen.
deb


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Mary Lynn posted


> Too bad he doesn't demonstrate with a dog!


Or indeed without a cap that completely shadowed his eyes!

Eug


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## derrekg123 (Jan 7, 2014)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Too bad he doesn't demonstrate with a dog!


It seems simple enough...and it is just a short youtube clip...I am not sure if he does it with a dog in the actual video though


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Mary Lynn posted Or indeed without a cap that completely shadowed his eyes!
> 
> Eug


In this country we have something called sunshine. It tends to be strong in areas where you hear accents like the one in the video. Caps are a necessity; we graft them to our heads in late winter and there they stay until late fall.

Amy Dahl


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

OK, from a different perspective I'd appreciate a little input. Eye contact is kind of a measure of responsiveness. Avoidance is an issue that becomes quite obvious when the dog will not look at you. If eye contact to a certain extent is a measure of how responsive a dog is, there is one situation that I'd appreciate a little feedback. 

When at the line and running marks the dog is looking out.........intensely. They are not looking up at the trainer and if they are it is an obvious problem. My dogs almost never look up at me. The rare times that it happens is if they just never see the mark being thrown and are totally confused (but that is another issue). So the premise is I have dogs that look out and "stare down" each mark. They are focused and it is part of the precise routine of marking.

When training alone, I have had a few dogs that seem to think looking back at me (as the trainer) is expected. 

The issue I'm reaching for here is that a dog that is trained to "give" eye contact to his trainer may look back to the gunner (who is the trainer) out of habit. I don't think this is a good thing in terms of marking especially if when in "solo" training I am throwing many walking singles from different stations during a setup. 

Of course if training is not "solo" this "different routine" of looking off the mark before being sent doesn't happen. I did spend some time teaching a dog "not" to look back at me during "solo" training. It was not an easy "do" with the responsive dog that I worked so hard to become so. She always has snappy, square sits, with intense eye contact in the field any time a whistle is blown. 

Since becoming aware of this potential problem (my opinion), the next (my last pup) was proactively trained to NOT look at me when doing multiple singles setups. 

In addition to the above, dogs performing in "solo" training may be released by voice or hand signals. I am concerned that a dog's focus on the fall is disrupted. Then again having to re-focus may in the long run enhance a dog's marking skills.....but for a young dog I'm not sure the eye contact issue is always a good thing. Comments?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> OK, from a different perspective I'd appreciate a little input. Eye contact is kind of a measure of responsiveness. Avoidance is an issue that becomes quite obvious when the dog will not look at you. If eye contact to a certain extent is a measure of how responsive a dog is, there is one situation that I'd appreciate a little feedback.
> 
> When at the line and running marks the dog is looking out.........intensely. They are not looking up at the trainer and if they are it is an obvious problem. My dogs never look up at me. The rare times that it happens is if they just never see the mark being thrown and are totally confused (but that is another issue). So the premise is I have dogs that look out and "stare down" each mark. They are focused and it is part of the precise routine of marking.
> 
> ...


I knew I could count on you Jim.
Being someone who throws a lot of marks by myself. It is incredibly important to teach a dog to look where the mark is before sending it. I try not to send the dog if he is looking at me.


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## lostdog (Oct 19, 2013)

Just started obedience training a 4 month old BLF and while working on sit she doesn't like to make eye contact (actually avoids it). Is this a concern at this age? If so, what do you do to encourage or develop the constant eye contact? She understands the command and will sit no problem, but will look anyplace but at me. I haven't applied much pressure (choke chain), and throw alot of fun bumpers for her.

Thanks


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

lostdog said:_Just started obedience training a 4 month old BLF and while working on sit she doesn't like to make eye contact (actually avoids it). Is this a concern at this age? If so, what do you do to encourage or develop the constant eye contact? She understands the command and will sit no problem, but will look anyplace but at me. I haven't applied much pressure (choke chain) and throw a lot of fun bumpers for her."_

First of all 4 months may be a bit early to begin formal OB. Secondly, the avoidance issue (poor eye contact) is simply a read that training is out of balance. 

Here's a link to several tips on "Hawkeye Media". Read through them and look especially for areas where control (too much OB) and not enough excitement (wrong kind of fun) are out of balance. Remember the perception of what you are doing is from the pup's point of view (not yours). She is telling you something. 

What is expected is not what you are getting and maybe "too early" complicates the issue. 

*Bill Hillman Tips (link)*


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## lostdog (Oct 19, 2013)

Thanks Kwicklabs, have been following the Hillman video...alot of chasing (trying to keep it fun) and just working on sit, not real formal training. Will do less sitting work and more chasing and let her get a little older.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

*teaching youngsters to focus on stand-alone marks*



KwickLabs said:


> OK, from a different perspective I'd appreciate a little input. Eye contact is kind of a measure of responsiveness. Avoidance is an issue that becomes quite obvious when the dog will not look at you. If eye contact to a certain extent is a measure of how responsive a dog is, there is one situation that I'd appreciate a little feedback.
> 
> When at the line and running marks the dog is looking out.........intensely. They are not looking up at the trainer and if they are it is an obvious problem. My dogs almost never look up at me. The rare times that it happens is if they just never see the mark being thrown and are totally confused (but that is another issue). So the premise is I have dogs that look out and "stare down" each mark. They are focused and it is part of the precise routine of marking.
> 
> ...


Excellent points! I start teaching stand alone marks with a steady pup and an older lab by throwing marks from *behind* the line...that makes it easier teaching pup to focus on the mark, not me. If the pup does not focus on the mark or if he moves, the older lab gets the retrieve (pup is on a parachute cord as a slip cord). Pup learns quickly to focus and be steady to get the reward. Next phase I throw stand alone marks from the side of the line, if the pup looks at me instead of the mark, older lab gets to retrieve. Next phase, I'm throwing stand alones from in front of the line, at this point no parachute cord on pup since he can not get the bumper if he breaks before I can.
...once I'm happy with pup through these three phases of stand alones in the yard, I repeat the same three phases a new location in the field. I repeat this process at different field locations gradually increasing the distance from the line. Pup understand he must focus on the mark and not me and he must not move to get the reward of retrieving. Eventually I can throw stand alone marks with pup alone as I can always pick up the mark if the pup moves or does not focus on the mark, I also can throw stand-alone marks as a hidden gun (hunt test training) with pup and older lab taking turns retrieving. I release verbally calling the dog's name and do not use a hand signal with stand alone marks as I don't want the dog looking at me..I want the dog focused on the mark until verbally released.
I know other trainers use a hand signal with stand alones...my preference is verbal release and focus on the mark, not the thrower. If you don't have an older dog, you can always teach this during group training sessions with an older dog as the other dog on the line.
Throwing stand-alone marks with re-entries (land-water-land-water-land) seems to be a easy way to teach youngsters to drive through to the mark if you can find bank-channel-bank-channel-bank type water.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Amy* posted


> In this country we have something called sunshine.


An entirely alien proposition and certainly mistaken; the world (ie Wales) doesn't work like that. Pic below is of Tewkesbury a couple of weeks ago which is downstream from us on the River Severn. 










Most of the water in the snap landed originally in our garden; I recognise the colour. Handy little land /water / land alongshore mark from the car park though.










"And we'll have two large J&Bs to finish with please, Dai. No water thank you, just as it comes".

This has been the wettest January in Wales since records began in 1904. Everywhere is just sopping wet, sodden and waterlogged. Sunshine? Wossatden?"

Eug


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> "And we'll have two large J&Bs to finish with please, Dai. No water thank you, just as it comes".


What-what, Eug? Waiters in wellies who ain't even Manuel repairing the pipes at Fawlty Towers! Bloody hell, would've thought that to occur with same frequency as the Villa's four-goal assault between the Albion pipes. But then my mate Nigel brought me back a Barbour _*baseball*_ cap ("1894 and all that" inscription) and I knew you lot had caved to making eye-contact with climate change. As they say in Alabama, stay dry, old man.

MG


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Good answer. If you follow this program the focus just comes naturally. They want to watch you even when you walk away from them! I first start with the clicker and treats.


A question.....How many National Champions were trained with clickers and cheese balls? Just finished reading and re-reading Lardy's program , he states training is a time for heeling sticks and electric collars, not a time for weenies. His quote not mine. He won seven national titles more than any other trainer, ever.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

T-Pines said:


> PatDuck,
> 
> 
> Regarding your experience with your first (older) dog, there may be two areas to consider in terms of mistakes to avoid this time around with your new pup. The first is teaching focus on you as part of all your remote sit training. The second is avoidance behavior. A dog that is looking away, avoiding eye contact, could be exhibiting avoidance, which is sign of distress from confusion or inability to deal with perceived pressure of the situation.
> ...


Based on the OP's example, I would expect this to be the case. A dog like that can be a natural worrier. This probably happens more when the dog is stopped relatively close to the line due to a bad initial line. The reason for the bad IL and avoidance (not looking at you when sat), are one and same, the dog perceived danger with the line you were trying to get in the first place. You have to be gentle in this case and ease him onto the line you want. Don't call back to much as that can lead to a popping issue. Try to recognize the danger the dog is seeing, pointing him close to an old fall or down a shore for example, then shorten up or find some way to make him more comfortable with that "look".


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Backwater said:


> A question.....How many National Champions were trained with clickers and cheese balls? Just finished reading and re-reading Lardy's program , he states training is a time for heeling sticks and electric collars, not a time for weenies. His quote not mine. He won seven national titles more than any other trainer, ever.


Wow, way to mischaracterize Lardy. I don't expect he ever used a clicker though he might treat train little puppies, but Lardy was one of the first to make it generally acceptable to teach first, correct later and give the dog the benefit of doubt when you're not sure. That may have been a direct quote, but taken out of context. Lardy leans on the softer side compared to many old school trainers.


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## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

Training with Mike Lardy Volume 1, 2nd Ed., page 3 from the October/November 1995 RTJ, "...though formal ob will come later, ...He can even learn simple casting games on the kitchen floor. Food rewards (like hot dog pieces) are appropriate...".

Also, page 5 of the same article Mr. Lardy provides "Mike's OB Thoughts for Today"..."...the distinction between the early stages of training of OB using treats, other forms of praise, and gentle persuasion, and the more formal stage can be quite blurred."

Good enough for me.

To me, the 2nd Edition of these articles is worth it just for the "Thoughts for Today" that Mr. Lardy provides.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Backwater said:


> A question.....How many National Champions were trained with clickers and cheese balls? Just finished reading and re-reading Lardy's program , he states training is a time for heeling sticks and electric collars, not a time for weenies. His quote not mine. He won seven national titles more than any other trainer, ever.


Hmm interesting! Lets see FC/AFC Mioak's Criquetpas (National Open Finalist), FC/AFC Morgan le Fae of Buckshot (170 open/all-age points Lardy's truck), FC/AFC/CFC Yo You Kaytee KK, FC/AFC Minare Risqué of Buckshot, FC Landover's Ms Mouse, FC/AFC Criquetpas Gettum Duke, to name just a few, were all trained with cut up hot dogs as treats until about three months old. How do I know because I fed them the hot dogs, owned or co-owned all of them , five of them through a Derby Career, two of them through their FC/AFC. Don't tell the Pros that eventualy trained them though, that they were fed pieces of hot dogs, especially Mike, Pat, Wayne, Andy, Jim you can fill in the last names....


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

Criquetpas said:


> Hmm interesting! Lets see FC/AFC Mioak's Criquetpas (National Open Finalist), FC/AFC Morgan le Fae of Buckshot (170 open/all-age points Lardy's truck), FC/AFC/CFC Yo You Kaytee KK, FC/AFC Minare Risqué of Buckshot, FC Landover's Ms Mouse, FC/AFC Criquetpas Gettum Duke, to name just a few, were all trained with cut up hot dogs as treats until about three months old. How do I know because I fed them the hot dogs, owned or co-owned all of them , five of them through a Derby Career, two of them through their FC/AFC. Don't tell the Pros that eventualy trained them though, that they were fed pieces of hot dogs, especially Mike, Pat, Wayne, Andy, Jim you can fill in the last names....


So the experts here on RTF equate a cheese ball for a 12 weeks old pup, THE factor in their success? Also the question wasn't FC AFC is was NFC, just a little bit of a difference, but I could be wrong. I thought NFC was different then FC, maybe not.
Not saying one should not praise their dogs, I sure do, have a box of biscuits in the truck all the time, but when it is business, there are no clickers, weenies, or taped episodes of "The View" on the truck. 

*"Don't tell me about your friend who thinks choke collars, heeling sticks, and electronic collars are cruel and unnecessary, so he uses weenies. He probably doesn't hunt, or else he has a dog that doesn't share our passion for October and all the birds that go it it", (Lardy, 2013, p. 4)*.


References
Lardy, M. (2013). Basic Obediance. _Training with Mike Lardy_, _2_, 4.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Backwater said:


> So the experts here on RTF equate a cheese ball for a 12 weeks old pup, THE factor in their success? Also the question wasn't FC AFC is was NFC, just a little bit of a difference, but I could be wrong. I thought NFC was different then FC, maybe not.
> Not saying one should not praise their dogs, I sure do, have a box of biscuits in the truck all the time, but when it is business, there are no clickers, weenies, or taped episodes of "The View" on the truck.
> 
> *"Don't tell me about your friend who thinks choke collars, heeling sticks, and electronic collars are cruel and unnecessary, so he uses weenies. He probably doesn't hunt, or else he has a dog that doesn't share our passion for October and all the birds that go it it", (Lardy, 2013, p. 4)*.
> ...


 My post stands!


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Backwater said:


> So the experts here on RTF equate a cheese ball for a 12 weeks old pup, THE factor in their success? Also the question wasn't FC AFC is was NFC, just a little bit of a difference, but I could be wrong. I thought NFC was different then FC, maybe not.
> Not saying one should not praise their dogs, I sure do, have a box of biscuits in the truck all the time, but when it is business, there are no clickers, weenies, or taped episodes of "The View" on the truck.
> 
> *"Don't tell me about your friend who thinks choke collars, heeling sticks, and electronic collars are cruel and unnecessary, so he uses weenies. He probably doesn't hunt, or else he has a dog that doesn't share our passion for October and all the birds that go it it", (Lardy, 2013, p. 4)*.
> ...


Just exactly when is it "business " with a 12 week old pup?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> My post stands!


Just ignore Backwater. He's purchased some well bred dogs, but hasn't learned the head from the tail yet, Earl. Just buying them doesn't cut it. And, he doesn't understand the differences between a weekend trial and a national and how they are judged. So be it. Don't waste your time or your breath. 

Let's get back to "the day the music died."


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Wow, way to mischaracterize Lardy. I don't expect he ever used a clicker though he might treat train little puppies, but Lardy was one of the first to make it generally acceptable to teach first, correct later and give the dog the benefit of doubt when you're not sure. That may have been a direct quote, but taken out of context. Lardy leans on the softer side compared to many old school trainers.


John is exactly correct. Mike and Andy made their claim to fame by taking soft mealy bitches and getting them to run hard and make field champions out of them. I can tell you, that just before Andy Attar went to line in the 4th series of an open, with Honor, to achieve his first open win, he fed him part of his sandwich!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> When training alone, I have had a few dogs that seem to think looking back at me (as the trainer) is expected.


You have a bit of a different situation Jim .. if you train alone quite a bit. The dogs have learned that YOU are the one who starts the ball rolling, and they are anxious for you to do that. I've really never had this happen with a balance of group vs. solo training. They know where the action is coming from ie: the sky, the field, etc. and that is where their focus will be, even if you taught them initial eye contact as a puppy. They learn to transfer their skill sets.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> John is exactly correct. Mike and Andy made their claim to fame by taking soft mealy bitches and getting them to run hard and make field champions out of them. I can tell you, that just before Andy Attar went to line in the 4th series of an open, with Honor, to achieve his first open win, he fed him part of his sandwich!


Oh yeah, and I know a trainer, that told Dick, to use a squeeky toy to get dog's attention. Course, this trainer likely doesn't live up to Mr. Backwater's high standards....
He has won just 1 national open.
LOL


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> John is exactly correct. Mike and Andy made their claim to fame by taking soft mealy bitches and getting them to run hard and make field champions out of them. I can tell you, that just before Andy Attar went to line in the 4th series of an open, with Honor, to achieve his first open win, he fed him part of his sandwich!


I tend to forget how long we have been putzing around this game. Like one big time NFC eating a bird on my watch judging her because of Oveban and the hormones out of wack or one two times NAFC breaking in the Open, then as a judge watched him break in the Amateur after the owners had already bought their tickets to the National or a NAFC blowing up in the second series of a Open I was judging and they had to go out and pick the dog up with a four wheeler, won the National Open a short time later. Watching a handler in a holding blind feeding dog bones waiting to run his NAFC. Watch a Two times National FC jump over a holding blind, two weeks after winning the National running a weekend trial....Yup have even fed my dogs in the holding blind a few times. I have seen Andy do it on more then one occasion, probably, Honor at the time. That's why Andy and Mike have had so much success with bitches they can "play to the dog" . Your correct back to the Music died on Facebook.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Dave Rorem talks about using treats to improve focus in his high rollers. I suppose he doesn't count either :wink:.

Criquetpas, I enjoyed reading about your dogs.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

mitty said:


> Dave Rorem talks about using treats to improve focus in his high rollers. I suppose he doesn't count either :wink:.
> 
> Criquetpas, I enjoyed reading about your dogs.


I know Dave well, used to run the Iron Range and Duluth Circuit. Talked to him many times and remember when his daughter was a little one, my wife used to catch Bass at the Iron Range grounds with the kids.
One of the best retriever trainers in the country. His handler DVD is well worth watching as well as the Carr and Rorem DVD's. I have judged him and he "practices what he preaches " , all real world stuff, not perfect world. Thanks for reading.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> Mike and Andy made their claim to fame by taking soft mealy bitches and getting them to run hard and make field champions out of them.


Wait a second one can bribe females into doing things better; Where's protocol for this!!!; BRING ON THE CHEESE BALLS


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## PatDuck (Jan 12, 2014)

Criquetpas said:


> Hmm interesting! Lets see FC/AFC Mioak's Criquetpas (National Open Finalist), FC/AFC Morgan le Fae of Buckshot (170 open/all-age points Lardy's truck), FC/AFC/CFC Yo You Kaytee KK, FC/AFC Minare Risqué of Buckshot, FC Landover's Ms Mouse, FC/AFC Criquetpas Gettum Duke, to name just a few, were all trained with cut up hot dogs as treats until about three months old. How do I know because I fed them the hot dogs, owned or co-owned all of them , five of them through a Derby Career, two of them through their FC/AFC. Don't tell the Pros that eventualy trained them though, that they were fed pieces of hot dogs, especially Mike, Pat, Wayne, Andy, Jim you can fill in the last names....


Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!!!! BURN!!!!!! lol


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Eye contact is a good thing; however it can be overdone. 
You don't want the dog trying to make eye contact with you when birds are going down or when you are lining them up for next mark; you want them looking out into the field


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

PatDuck said:


> I made a lot of mistakes with my last dog as he was the first I have ever trained. One of my pet peeves with him is that when I sit him on the whistle when he gets off line of a downed bird, he will turn, sit and sometimes he is looking at everything but me. Drives me nuts but eventually he looks, then I cast him. I did some research and found some info on training eye contact. Some use clickers and treats and reward eye contact. Anyone tried training it? The only downfall I could see is if he is looking at you when he should be marking. I was thinking of teaching it with my new pup using the command "watch". That way if his eyes wander I can use it. Maybe im over thinking it. Just curious if any of you guys have tried teaching it? Thanks for any input


You got a dog that is intrusted to you big time. There is nothing wrong with that. Just show that there are things out there besides you.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Backwater said:


> So the experts here on RTF equate a cheese ball for a 12 weeks old pup, THE factor in their success? Also the question wasn't FC AFC is was NFC, just a little bit of a difference, but I could be wrong. I thought NFC was different then FC, maybe not.
> Not saying one should not praise their dogs, I sure do, have a box of biscuits in the truck all the time, but when it is business, there are no clickers, weenies, or taped episodes of "The View" on the truck.
> 
> *"Don't tell me about your friend who thinks choke collars, heeling sticks, and electronic collars are cruel and unnecessary, so he uses weenies. He probably doesn't hunt, or else he has a dog that doesn't share our passion for October and all the birds that go it it", (Lardy, 2013, p. 4)*.
> ...


I remember how it was back when I was just starting out. I read a couple books and was real good at quoting them. Boy it sure made me feel like I knew stuff. Ten years later and God knows how many days in the field training dogs, I realize that I still don't know crap. But at least I know enough now to know that I don't know.


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