# Whats your opinion on silver labs?



## whitekey (Mar 17, 2008)

So whats your opinion on silver labs?


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Hummmm aint been around long huh?


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

This should be good


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

The real answer is don't go there. People worry about the effects of long term breeding of chocolates to chocolates or yellows to yellows because both colors are recessive traits and breeding strictly on color lines reduces the available gene pool. That's a limited consideration by comparison since both color gene pools are large. However, in breeding "silvers" you are not only breeding a recessive trait but a rare recessive trait. That means the available gene pool is microscopic and the risk of unfortunate genetic surprises sky rockets. Of course, I'm assuming that the genes involved are actually Labs. Many suspect that there is more than a little Weimaraner in the silver Lab gene pool.


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Too much shine in the blind and they jingle when they walk .Like any metal ,don't float too good either .


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Do a search-there are lots of threads on it.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

whitekey said:


> So whats your opinion on silver labs?


They make good hood ornaments.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

NO NO NO!!!

The established order of winter posts is as follows:

Who's going south
MNH test
How to lower trial numbers
Competing trials (a correlary to the above--this year's economy tweaked it to "too few trials" apparently)
Westminster 
English Labs
THEN Silver labs

You're jumping the gun big-time--this is a late winter topic, not mid-winter.


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

It would depend if you are of the persuasion that color doesn't matter,,,meaning a good dog is a good dog no matter what color you choose,,,, ,Phewwww I'm so PC 
So if you can find a good silver and breed it to a good silver then more power to you.;-)

Pete


----------



## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

Is there such a thing? Getting my popcorn and beer, Regards.

For the sake of a new guy (with 6 posts) - Silver is not a recognizable breed color. A lot is suspected cross-breeding with Weimeraners ( a beautiful dog in their own right) -- just people don't take kindly to the non-AKC "mutts" around here. Seems to me as this has been discussed about 100,000 times.


----------



## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

The last silver lab I saw had a perfect resemblence of a weim in the head and a fat lab for a body. Very ugly!


----------



## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Utah 1/9/2009 8:05:32 AM CST
Silver Labrador puppies. Due on February 8th 2009. Now taking deposits of $250.00. This is a beautiful and rare color of Labradors. For you hunters, you have not seen a better camoflauge color to hunt over, it's amazing. You can view the stud and dam and the pedigrees at **************. We offer a 26 month hip/eye/elbow guarantee, 7 day health guarantee, dew claws removed, and socialized. All puppies come with a Ukanuba puppy kit. The price is $1000.00. If interested please call ***********************
From EE


----------



## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

A silver lab?
Either a half-breed or a mutant.

ml


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Utah 1/9/2009 8:05:32 AM CST
> Silver Labrador puppies. Due on February 8th 2009. Now taking deposits of $250.00. This is a beautiful and rare color of Labradors. For you hunters, you have not seen a better camoflauge color to hunt over, it's amazing. You can view the stud and dam and the pedigrees at ******************. We offer a 26 month hip/eye/elbow guarantee, 7 day health guarantee, dew claws removed, and socialized. All puppies come with a Ukanuba puppy kit. The price is $1000.00. If interested please call *****************************.
> 
> From EE


Both sire and dam are under 2 years old. Not a single title on either side in three generations. Only preliminary clearances on hips. No other clearances noted. $1000 fee for a 17 month stud. No clearances on any of the grandparents I checked. Great breeding. Maybe EE should require OFA Hip clearance numbers like the other sites.


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

YardleyLabs said:


> Both sire and dam are under 2 years old. Not a single title on either side in three generations. Only preliminary clearances on hips. No other clearances noted. $1000 fee for a 17 month stud. No clearances on any of the grandparents I checked. Great breeding. Maybe EE should require OFA Hip clearance numbers like the other sites.


No Maybe about it . You listening Shayne ??


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

My Lord, Miss Cleo is gonna have a fit if she sees the Gater Point dog in the bitches pedigree!


----------



## K.Bolan (Feb 1, 2008)

YardleyLabs said:


> Of course, I'm assuming that the genes involved are actually Labs. Many suspect that there is more than a little Weimaraner in the silver Lab gene pool.


I think they are here to stay. But I have seen very few that actually look like labs and not science experiments. The ones that do look like labs look nice. There is a genetic test to tell the specific breeds are in a mutt. Maybe some one will buy a silver and tell us what it is really is made of.


----------



## Cthomas (Sep 21, 2003)

"Silver" labs aint as pretty as "Snow" labs.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Here's a real purty silverfreak, this one's a baby Chesapeake. Chesapeakes do carry the dilution gene that results in this color. Those baby blue eyes will turn yellow eventually.


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> Here's a real purty silverfreak, this one's a baby Chesapeake. Chesapeakes do carry the dilution gene that results in this color. Those baby blue eyes will turn yellow eventually.


Julie, that is one cute, ghostly looking little pup. Even when their eyes turn that color still looks like ghosts.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I like the color and i even like the light eyes; my avatar is a picture of my year old "silverfreak" who has really pale yellow eyes. They stayed blue til she was about 5 months. I just had a litter that half of the 10 pups were silver, much to my surprise since the dam is brown and the sire is deadgrass.
These are some of the new babies, the 4 girls:


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> I like the color and i even like the light eyes; my avatar is a picture of my year old "silverfreak" who has really pale yellow eyes. They stayed blue til she was about 5 months. I just had a litter that half of the 10 pups were silver, much to my surprise since the dam is brown and the sire is deadgrass.
> These are some of the new babies, the 4 girls:


I absolutely love your avatar. I've always thought that was such a neat picture. The puppies are darn cute too.


----------



## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

I thought that was caused by the dog truck?
________
BLOWJOB VIRTUAL


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Julie, those light colored babies won't change color as they mature?


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Dont get an imitation get the real Silver dog an ASH Chesapeake !


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Copiah Creek said:


> Dont get an imitation get the real Silver dog an ASH Chesapeake !


Absolutely gorgeous. Is an ASH Chessie accepted by the AKC? I know that the colors of a Chessie can vary so much. The camoflauge is amazing!


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Yes ASH is accepted by AKC ,if you go to the ACC web site you can see the color chart and ASH is on there . Julie R. Can tell you 10 times as much about the ASH ,,,,The dog in the pics is Hope Springs Dowry aka Sterling ,,,Julie raised her ,,,,just for me


----------



## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

There is a poor pro that hits the CO circuit that has a light yellow who spends most of his life in a trailer. When he pulls him out he always gets asked at every test, " is that a silver? No that's stainless steel."


----------



## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

My opinion is the same as the Labrador Retriever Club.


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Copiah Creek said:


> Yes ASH is accepted by AKC ,if you go to the ACC web site you can see the color chart and ASH is on there . Julie R. Can tell you 10 times as much about the ASH ,,,,The dog in the pics is Hope Springs Dowry aka Sterling ,,,Julie raised her ,,,,just for me



Good to see you back...I thought we lost you. Stick around will you?

Post 'em if you got 'em regards,


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Leddyman
Thanks ,,,,,,,,i have tons of pics of chessies  But the Ash is the best camo for where i hunt ,,,,,,looks like Nat. Gear .


----------



## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

scott spalding said:


> I thought that was caused by the dog truck?


Ha! That's funny!
LM


----------



## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Take a look at the structure of the standing dogs in that ad. I see a lot of Weim characteristics there. I don't see Labrador structure. And the eyes/heads.... Weims. HOly cow, not a single final clearance or title and they have the audacity to ask$1000 for pups! Shaking my head. Anne


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Hmmm, maybe I am selling my Chesapeake silverfreaks too cheaply... ;-)


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Julie, advertise them as silver labradoodles and charge $5000!!!!


----------



## duckster (May 20, 2007)

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)




----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

badbullgator said:


>


Shiny....(Too short)


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

badbullgator said:


>


Told ya'll they make good hood ornaments.


----------



## K.Bolan (Feb 1, 2008)

The biggest problem besides not having the proper clearances for breeding, is the fact that these "breeders" are charging for color and nothing else. If they were bred from champions I might not mind paying a K. But not on a dog with a questionable lineage.


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

duk4me said:


> Told ya'll they make good hood ornaments.


Told ya'll they don't float good .


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

John Kelder said:


> Told ya'll they don't float good .


Duh, thats why they make good hood ornaments. All that Silver weighs em down.:razz:


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Well today we were breaking ice , and my little Silverfreak picked up her first sprig .


----------



## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Yeah, I almost walked out on a lunch meeting when one of the assistant of the specialist I have been using said that she has a *labradoodle*. Unfortunately, they catered lunch just for us and I had to stay. 

Angelo


----------



## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Raina, I showed the pedigree to MS Cleo, she is busy, so I will try to answer. 

YEARS ago a fellow I did not know wanted to breed to one of our studs so I agreed. She had a litter that had three females in it and when he bred them he advertised them as his "Gator Point Girls". We asked him to stop using the GATOR Point name in his ads and he did. Found out he was running a puppy mill. He is now breeding Silver Labs also.

When we sell a puppy we don't put restrictions on them, we just try to see that they are going to good homes. (How is yours doing? You passed didn't you? Ha!)

We try to be the best we can, but Cleo keeps telling me that I'm NOT perfect, but what does she know? It's her fault, she has only been training me now for 55 years. How is that for a blind date? Bill
________
Naughty_woman


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

duk4me said:


> Duh, thats why they make good hood ornaments. All that Silver weighs em down.:razz:


True , so true , but why put it on the hood to stare at a dogs butt while going down the road ?
Kinda like that sled dog saying , "if you ain't the lead dog , ......"


----------



## ladylwyer (Dec 17, 2008)

About 10 years ago, there was a breeder in Oklahoma that advertized a 'brindle' color labrador litter. It looked like a labrador but its coat was a mixture of yellow, black and chocolate. Both sire and dam were AKC registered. Within a few weeks after sending in his AKC litter registration, his registration papers were returned stamped 'refused.' Within another two weeks, two AKC officials were standing on his front door wanting to see the puppies. They filed a lawsuit in Oklahoma County, obtained a restraining order against him and an order that revoked all prior puppies registered with his name as the breeder, even those breedings that weren't connected to the 'brindle' litter. He was effectively put out of business. Shortly after this lawsuit, AKC came out with DNA registration. AKC recognizes only three colors of labradors: black, yellow and chocolate. There is no such thing as a 'silver' labrador. The pic posted on this thread looks like a cheasapeake got into the hen house. The AKC is fiercely protective of its standards and in this Oklahoma case, they brought in at least five experts and hired top notch counsel to go after this breeder who only thought he had a legitimate mutation that would make him a 'million' dollars. Responsible breeders don't sell 'silver' labradors.


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Well mine is a Chesapeake , BUT if you look at the webpage of the silver labs they look nothing like a chessie ,,,a long tail wiem yes BUT NOT a chessie .


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Copiah Creek said:


> Well mine is a Chesapeake , BUT if you look at the webpage of the silver labs they look nothing like a chessie ,,,a long tail wiem yes BUT NOT a chessie .


Prolly smell better than them dern Chesies though.

Staying upwind regards

Bubba


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Bubba said:


> Prolly smell better than them dern Chesies though.
> 
> Staying upwind regards
> 
> Bubba


Is your avatar of Bramadoodlesilvachessie lines ?? quivering whil' waitin' to know ...


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Nope- but he is one of the few critters that it is more important to stay upwind of.

Fragrant regards

Bubba


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Hey Mr. Bill, my Gator Point girl is doing great! She will be going in for her OFA's in a couple of months and will FINALLY be getting some titles! We had to pull her (and two other dogs) from taking a trip down south due to a litter (which is doing great) that is costing us a fortune to raise. Plus I was more than a little jealous of the dogs heading to warmer weather and me being stuck playing momma here in the cold. 
I'm going to be trying Tears out at an upcoming upland test in Nebraska, we'll see if we can't add some intitials to her name.


----------



## Black N Gold (Jan 14, 2009)

What the heck is a silver Lab?


----------



## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Black N Gold said:


> What the heck is a silver Lab?


A Weimaraner colored lab.


----------



## Black N Gold (Jan 14, 2009)

Thank you for explaining. I train around a lot of serious FT and HT folk and they have tried to educate me about Lab colors ( especially yellow variations) but I have never heard the term "silver."And I admit that I am new to Labs after running Goldens.


----------



## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Black N Gold said:


> Thank you for explaining. I train around a lot of serious FT and HT folk and they have tried to educate me about Lab colors ( especially yellow variations) but I have never heard the term "silver."And I admit that I am new to Labs after running Goldens.


No problem!


----------



## Trudy (Apr 11, 2006)

Hello,

I have a charcoal color lab: Bo-Ghy, his sister is a silver lab, both are training for trials in the Netherlands.
They show us a great job, but ofcourse we train for it!
He has a good karakter, (like most labs), and work like a lab, and not as a pointing dog.
As far as I read this alle, you hate them, but for me he is a good working dog, thats what count.....not his colour!
C:\Users\Trudy van der Linden\Bo-Ghy en Daisy\DSC01605.JPG


----------



## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Silver Labs?

It shouldn't happen!


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Trudy said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a charcoal color lab: Bo-Ghy, his sister is a silver lab, both are training for trials in the Netherlands.
> They show us a great job, but ofcourse we train for it!
> ...


Trudy,

I don't think it is that we "hate them" ("them" being the dog); it's more that we hate the fact that some 'breeders' are duping the public by advertising "silver" labs. The AKC (American Kennel Club) and the official Labrador Retriever standard does not recognize "silver" as a proper color for Labrador Retrievers. Only black, yellow and chocolate are officially recognized.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Black N Gold said:


> What the heck is a silver Lab?


A sham.

So-called Silver Labs are chocolates. I'm convinced that most breeders that are purveyors of them have likely crossed a few with Weim's to promote a silvery tone to their coats. They market to a gullible demographic, who will pay an exorbitant fee for an exotic color. Rarely, if ever, will you see such a dog holding meaningful performance titles.

I don't understand why this topic keeps coming up, but asking questions is certainly fine. I only wish it would go away for the sake of the breed.

The AKC does not recognize silver as a color under the breed standard for Labradors. I, for one, am very pleased that they've upheld the standard.

Evan


----------



## Trudy (Apr 11, 2006)

Here a picture of his sister and Bo-Ghy.
To show the differents in Silver and Charcoal.
Greetings, love to read the forum, and also learn a lot from it!


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Trudy
Is charcoal the same as black if so is silver the same as chocolate? 

Your dog looks like a very light colored chocolate similiar to an all white lab which has a little yellow here around the edges. 
I own some pockedotted labs but the AKC says their black,,,,go figure


Pete


----------



## Trudy (Apr 11, 2006)

Pete said:


> Trudy
> Is charcoal the same as black if so is silver the same as chocolate?
> 
> Your dog looks like a very light colored chocolate similiar to an all white lab which has a little yellow here around the edges.
> ...


Yes Pete in his pedigree stand black as colour, and in the one from his siter Chocolate.
The Mother is light silver and the father is carcoal.


----------



## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Silver "lab" equals weimerador or labrerauner.


----------



## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

Trudy said:


> Yes Pete in his pedigree stand black as colour, and in the one from his siter Chocolate.
> The Mother is light silver and the father is carcoal.


Just interested, do they have FCI recognized registrations?? And if from which Country?


----------



## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

These breeders of silver labs register them with AKC as chocolate but sell and promote as silver. There is no control factor so they get away with it.

Was in Memphis Tuesday having a litter CERFed and a man came in with a 'silver' lab that I felt so sorry for. The coat was so rough and looked dirty and the eyes were so crusted he could not stop blinking. I know the man cares enough to take him to a specialist but makes one wonder what these exotic breeders are thinking about when they breed for this. So sad.


----------



## Trudy (Apr 11, 2006)

Sissi said:


> Just interested, do they have FCI recognized registrations?? And if from which Country?


Yes Sissi one from the AKC (registrated as black and chocolate) and also in the Netherlands.
But when they procuced a litter and they have the same colours (the pups) they still get a pedigree but with NRC on it. (not regognized colour).
These dogs may not breed anymore becouse of NRC...so these pups get not a pedigree anymore.

greetings Trudy


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

My sister has a silver Lab which I guess is really a charcoal since it's more of a blue compared to my ash colored Chesapeakes. She got her dog as a rescue and there's little doubt she has Weimeraner in her, both from the look of her ears and the shape of her ribcage, even though she does look Lab, also. The people who originally had her dog, I believe, paid big bucks for her as a puppy as she matched their carpets and drapes but when she got to the chewing stage, they decided to get rid of her so my sister got her as they were about to take her to the pound. Like all of these silver Labs, she's the product of a brother sister breeding and has almost no branch to her family tree with one kennel name predominating.

The common kennel name that's in every silver Lab pedigree including probably Trudy's, bred Weimeraners and Labs in the 1980s and 'invented' the silver Lab about the time they stopped breeding Weims. There's little doubt a few Lab/Weim pups were falsely registered as pure Labs to get the color. About the time DNA testing became available, this same kennel was inspected by the AKC and offered up DNA as 'proof' their dogs were pure Labs. But at that time and til very recently, DNA testing could only prove the parents were those stated, and not even that if they weren't around for testing (i.e. the falsely registered mutts were long dead and buried by this time).

The silver color in Chesapeakes and other breeds, is a result of a dilution gene that is recessive but clearly has always existed in the breed as there's plenty of records of ash gray dogs. The ash color is merely a dilute brown. The charcoal seen in silver Labs is simply this dilution gene acting on black instead of brown. 

This is a photo of my sister's silver Lab with two of my CBRs a couple years ago. This dog is about 8 now, and is what I guess you call blue or charcoal. While she looks silver here, when she's next to one of my 'silverpeakes' she looks charcoal.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

whitekey said:


> So whats your opinion on silver labs?


Same as silver Xmas trees.


----------



## Trudy (Apr 11, 2006)

Julie R. said:


> My sister has a silver Lab which I guess is really a charcoal since it's more of a blue compared to my ash colored Chesapeakes. She got her dog as a rescue and there's little doubt she has Weimeraner in her, both from the look of her ears and the shape of her ribcage, even though she does look Lab, also. The people who originally had her dog, I believe, paid big bucks for her as a puppy as she matched their carpets and drapes but when she got to the chewing stage, they decided to get rid of her so my sister got her as they were about to take her to the pound. Like all of these silver Labs, she's the product of a brother sister breeding and has almost no branch to her family tree with one kennel name predominating.
> 
> The common kennel name that's in every silver Lab pedigree including probably Trudy's, bred Weimeraners and Labs in the 1980s and 'invented' the silver Lab about the time they stopped breeding Weims. There's little doubt a few Lab/Weim pups were falsely registered as pure Labs to get the color. About the time DNA testing became available, this same kennel was inspected by the AKC and offered up DNA as 'proof' their dogs were pure Labs. But at that time and til very recently, DNA testing could only prove the parents were those stated, and not even that if they weren't around for testing (i.e. the falsely registered mutts were long dead and buried by this time).
> 
> ...


Hello Julie,
Nice pic. I think the colour of Bo-Ghy is a litlle different....the breeder said he was a midium charcoal.
I sent a pic. from Bo-Ghy so you can see it.
greetings Trudy


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

I love mine! He's a great pheasant and duck hunter. The color absolutely dissappears into fall grains, grasses, and reeds.


----------



## K.Bolan (Feb 1, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I love mine! He's a great pheasant and duck hunter. The color absolutely dissappears into fall grains, grasses, and reeds.


I like the looks of the pup in the first pic.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

You got to admit, those silver labs are cute little buggers....

/Paul


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I love mine! He's a great pheasant and duck hunter. The color absolutely dissappears into fall grains, grasses, and reeds.


The ears are the giveaway. I've seen ears just like those before....on a...what was it?

Just saying regards,


----------



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

The last time I saw a dog with a face like that he was on Jed Clampett's front porch.

Ellie May bred weimeranners regards,


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Paragon Retrievers said:


> I like the looks of the pup in the first pic.


I like him to, here's a couple more. Come on.... the ears? seriously.


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I like him to, here's a couple more. Come on.... the ears? seriously.


Welcome to RTF. I think it's pretty clear after 75+ posts how we feel about "silver" labs. My question to you is "what are you trying to prove?" At least 90% of the lab people here feel the same way about the designer color. This maybe isn't the best thread to make your intro in. Just sayin';-)

Honestly, the ears on that pup look like they're bigger than the ears on my extra large 1 year old blm. He's got big ears for a lab, but he's also pushing 90 lbs at a year.


----------



## LAwaterfowler (Jan 22, 2009)

Trudy said:


> Hello Julie,
> Nice pic. I think the colour of Bo-Ghy is a litlle different....the breeder said he was a midium charcoal.
> I sent a pic. from Bo-Ghy so you can see it.
> greetings Trudy



I think this one is a good looking dog. Now it is quite obvious that the others are somewhat "mixed" with weim. But out of all the pics i have seen on this thread i think this pic of Bo-Ghy is the best looking


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Golddogs said:


> Same as silver Xmas trees.


BINGO !!!!!!! We have a winner !!!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Welcome to RTF. I think it's pretty clear after 75+ posts how we feel about "silver" labs. My question to you is "what are you trying to prove?" At least 90% of the lab people here feel the same way about the designer color. This maybe isn't the best thread to make your intro in. Just sayin';-)
> 
> Honestly, the ears on that pup look like they're bigger than the ears on my extra large 1 year old blm. He's got big ears for a lab, but he's also pushing 90 lbs at a year.


Quite honestly I'm not trying to prove anything. I just did a search and this site popped up. I read alot of the posts and came to the conclusion that like most good forums this one has some really informed people. The question was whats your opinion, mine differs from most purists. Hey, if it ain't black, its a mutant. Well any dog other than a wolf or wild dog is a mutant. Labs had, I believe Gordon setters, brought into the breed to improve the coat. If someone did introduce a Weim into the breed to get this color, it was for a trait that was desired. The same reason all breeds came about, to get the traits that were wanted and to eliminate the ones that were not.
This is where we have to debate. Is Silver a trait that is wanted, I say absolutely. I believe were the mistake came is calling it Silver. The original breeder should have stuck with a name of the color that was already accepted, such as the Ash Chessie. Would the color be more acceptable if it were an Ash Lab? The color in my opinion does not hurt the purpose for the dog. It can still blend in to it's background, especially cattail reeds in the fall. I need to get a pic of this. If the dog has too big of ears then you need to breed it with a dog with smaller ears to weed out the traight. This is exactly why my black female has multiple conformity champions in her background.

How about these pics of a charcoal and a silver female?


----------



## Blake (Feb 12, 2009)

Their cute pups, but not labs.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

That picture of the "silver?" (first one) actually looks like a cardboard brown, NOT silver by any means, which is why they are listed as chocolate. The second picture (and it could very well be the lighting and angle of the photo taken) also looks more chocolate then charcoal, albeit a very mottled coated chocolate!


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> How about these pics of a charcoal and a silver female?


Look chocolate to me. Light chocolate, but like Firehouse said that's why they're registered as chocolate.


----------



## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Fowl Play WA said:


> Welcome to RTF. I think it's pretty clear after 75+ posts how we feel about "silver" labs. My question to you is "what are you trying to prove?" At least 90% of the lab people here feel the same way about the designer color. This maybe isn't the best thread to make your intro in. Just sayin';-)
> 
> Honestly, the ears on that pup look like they're bigger than the ears on my extra large 1 year old blm. He's got big ears for a lab, but he's also pushing 90 lbs at a year.


I have no opinion on "silver" Labs one way or the other, and haven't read the whole thread. So forgive me if someone else alrwady made this point.

The "silver" color is not an indication of crossbreeding, or a "designer" color. The dilution gene exists in the original Newf and all of its descendent breeds, including Labs, Goldens (it is the gene that causes the ever-popular "white" Golden, really a pale cream), Flatties, and others, including Newfs, who can have silver, blue, and golden pups. 

This gene has been in the Lab breed since the beginning. The reason you never saw it mentioned in the literature is because people just bucketed those pups who were born with the trait, and kept their mouths shut. Much along the same lines that the yellow was "unheard" of until the 1930s or so, and chocolates were "unheard" of until the 60's or 70's. I remember the first swell of popularity of the Chocolates, and the Lab purists at that time swore up and down the color came from a breeder in X state (I won't say which one) who crossed his Labs with Chessies to get Chocolate!

The More Things Change, The More They Remain The Same Regards;

Lisa


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> The dilution gene exists in the original Newf and all of its descendent breeds, including Labs, Goldens (it is the gene that causes the ever-popular "white" Golden, really a pale cream), Flatties, and others, including Newfs, who can have silver, blue, and golden pups.
> 
> This gene has been in the Lab breed since the beginning. The reason you never saw it mentioned in the literature is because people just bucketed those pups who were born with the trait, and kept their mouths shut. Much along the same lines that the yellow was "unheard" of until the 1930s or so, and chocolates were "unheard" of until the 60's or 70's. I remember the first swell of popularity of the Chocolates, and the Lab purists at that time swore up and down the color came from a breeder in X state (I won't say which one) who crossed his Labs with Chessies to get Chocolate!
> 
> ...


Lisa, I posted this awhile back that was in RFTN reprinted from the AKC Gazette in resonse to the original emergence to the Silver Labrador. I don't know who is right, but they usually can't get rid of the Weim ears-they always seem to come through.

"There was an article published in RFTN that was reprinted from Pure-Bred Dogs in the AKC Gazette Jan 1988 when the Silvers were first hitting the scenes from this breeder which I believe is what the LRC believes. I've known of several parties that believe the dilute does occur in Labradors but when they contacted said breeder figured out it was not naturally occuring. Once they hear the story of this breeder they realize it's not a random occurrece. This is an excerpt which does not scan well:

"Of great concern to Labrador breeders are certain "silver/gray" Labs being offered for sale by breeders who tell their customers that "silver" is a recognized Labrador Retriever color. That statement is not consistent with the standard for Labrador Retrievers, as filed with AKC by the Labrador Retriever Club, and accepted by AKC as the breed standard.
One of these Labs, seen at a field trial,had, according to Dr. Dennis L. Nelson, DVM, the "identical coloration of a Weimaraner, including the eyes, with movement also similar to a Weimaraner."
. Dr. Nelson says, "From my knowledge of genetics of coat color in dogs. the gray color as it appears in Weimaraners. Great Danes, Greyhounds and Chows, comes from. a recessive gene in the "D" locus. The Labrador breed does not possess a recessive gene at this location. The dominant "D" gene
aIlows full expression of color in the "B" gene or "b" recessive gene, producing black and chocolate, respectively. The recessive "d" gene modifies or dilutes the recessive "b" gene to produce the gray color. This being the case, both parents would have to possess the "d" recessive gene either as "Dd" pair or "dd" pair. This would seem to rule out a simple mutation producing these pups and would instead indicate to me that both parents, either deliberately or not, have had blood outside the Labrador breed, introduced most likely in the form of a cross with a Weimaraner.
"No matter what the mechanism of the entry of this color, these dogs in no way conform to the standards of the breed. I think the matter requires
immediate attention in order to stop the introduction of this trait into the Labrador breed. I do not believe that it is even important to establish anything other than the fact that these Labs do not meet the standard requirements of the breed to eliminate them from registration, even though I suspect there has been a deliberate attempt to introduce outside genetics into the hreed.
"In many cases, this may' be done without a detectable change being made, but in this case, there is a definite change that is easily detectable and is highly unlikely to have resulted from random mutation."
The Labrador Club has received a great deal of correspondence from concerned people who have seen these "silver aberrations."
The Labrador Retriever Club of Greater Denver contacted the noted Denver canine geneticist, Mrs. Jo James. Mrs. James has done a great deal of research on color in the Lab. She says this silver color is nothing new: "I ran into the dilute gene when I did the original study and work on color ir, the Lab. I would sell you a Weimaraner that was "chunky," a little undersized. but had lots of bone, and would not dock his tail. You could show him for a rare "silver" Lab. The genetic background is the same. This gene had to lie dormant for a long time. Or did somebody add it again along the way? The dilute gene (recessive) is present in many breeds. Many others are suspect of carrying them. All it takes is one breeding to any of them to recover it in the Labrador."


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Hmmm grand total of 3 posts and a gmail address?

Some posTs heRe are loOking for reaL knowLedge and some are just dragging topwater.

Sometimes its hard to tell- this ain't one of them.

Keep on finning regards

Bubba


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

I was trolling, looking for advice on profesional training. I want to send one of my pups off.
This post hit close to home. I really wanted a debate on the field aspects, and hunting aspects, of this color. Not another smearfest of genetics this or that, weimeriener secret rendezvous, or my dog is better than yours etc.... I think some of the field trial dogs these days seem to look more like racing greyhounds, than a stocky Lab.

I also don't like white labs, and I detest the weim looking silvers. White could work upland gamebird hunting but would stick out like a sore thumb in a slough.

As for my gmail address.. I could give my main address but why would I want all that spam going there?


----------



## turningpointlabs (Jul 18, 2006)

My Problem with Silver is.. There are three recognized colors of labradors, and Silver is NOT one of them.. WHITE isn't either..
I don't care where the genes come from, or where they will go, but I have a hard time believing that there will ever be a line for that color on a registration form.. SO- if you have one, great for you.. the problem is where it came from, and who it's parents are, and why their breeders are not following the rules of the Parent club...

and what the heck is a conformity champion anyway??


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Hmmm grand total of 3 posts and a gmail address?
> 
> Some posTs heRe are loOking for reaL knowLedge and some are just dragging topwater.
> 
> ...


You west coast guys just rnot trusting enough.

No bull regards:razz:


----------



## FetchExpress (May 31, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I was trolling, looking for advice on profesional training. I want to send one of my pups off.
> This post hit close to home. I really wanted a debate on the field aspects, and hunting aspects, of this color. Not another smearfest of genetics this or that, weimeriener secret rendezvous, or my dog is better than yours etc.... I think some of the field trial dogs these days seem to look more like racing greyhounds, than a stocky Lab.
> 
> I also don't like white labs, and I detest the weim looking silvers. White could work upland gamebird hunting but would stick out like a sore thumb in a slough.
> ...


Pay your money, get it trained, and let it ride. Most any dog can be trained to do to whatever you want it to do. Breeding however is different can of worms!


----------



## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> This gene has been in the Lab breed since the beginning. The reason you never saw it mentioned in the literature is because people just bucketed those pups who were born with the trait, and kept their mouths shut. Much along the same lines that the yellow was "unheard" of until the 1930s or so, and chocolates were "unheard" of until the 60's or 70's. I remember the first swell of popularity of the Chocolates, and the Lab purists at that time swore up and down the color came from a breeder in X state (I won't say which one) who crossed his Labs with Chessies to get Chocolate!


This might be a good place to repeat something I've posted before. A few years ago when I was working on an article on Lab colors, I spoke with Dr. Mark Neff of UC Berkeley, who is part of the Dog Genome project. He had been collecting pedigrees of silver Labs (unexpected) for some time. Based on pedigree analysis, he concluded that the gene has been in the breed for a long, long time and is not the result of a modern-day outcross. He told me I "would be surprised" to learn in whose bloodlines it has appeared.

Helen Warwick mentions puppies that sound like silvers in the UK in 1932.

Amy Dahl


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

afdahl said:


> This might be a good place to repeat something I've posted before. A few years ago when I was working on an article on Lab colors, I spoke with Dr. Mark Neff of UC Berkeley, who is part of the Dog Genome project. He had been collecting pedigrees of silver Labs (unexpected) for some time. Based on pedigree analysis, he concluded that the gene has been in the breed for a long, long time and is not the result of a modern-day outcross. He told me I "would be surprised" to learn in whose bloodlines it has appeared.
> 
> Helen Warwick mentions puppies that sound like silvers in the UK in 1932.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Is that study available online. Genetics is a hobby of mine.

Thanks,


Tim


----------



## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Tim,

I haven't kept up with Dr. Neff's publications, but you could search for them. Regarding the pedigrees, my understanding is that the pedigrees submitted to him were to be kept confidential, so breeders need not be embarrassed by the appearance of silver from their stock. 

Dr. Neff reminded me of gene pleiotropy--that one gene can affect more than one trait, so that in principle there might be some real difference in performance or health between the different colors of Labrador. At the time he was advising a service dog breeding program, and, if I remember right, he was screening out chocolates. 

My editors cut that part from the article and included photos and captions suggesting that color is independent of all other traits.

Amy Dahl


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

afdahl said:


> Tim,
> 
> I haven't kept up with Dr. Neff's publications, but you could search for them. Regarding the pedigrees, my understanding is that the pedigrees submitted to him were to be kept confidential, so breeders need not be embarrassed by the appearance of silver from their stock.
> 
> ...



Thanks Amy

It reminds me of white thoroughbreds. The geniune article is hard to find.

I'll do a little research.

Tim


----------



## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Thanks Amy
> 
> It reminds me of white thoroughbreds. The geniune article is hard to find.
> 
> ...


 Tim, use the Google Scholar search engine to find articles along the lines of what you are looking for. 

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/151/2/803


----------



## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Dr Neff is now at UC Davis, Associate Director of the Dog Genetrics Group. http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/cghg/index.php


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Ironman said:


> Dr Neff is now at UC Davis, Associate Director of the Dog Genetrics Group. http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/cghg/index.php


I went to this website and found a very interesting article on canine cancer.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/documents/newsletter_2008_fall.pdf

If for some reason this link does not work, I found the article in the Fall 2008 Newsletter.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think what you have to look at are what of the chances of two purebred dilutes meeting at Crist Culo, a kennel in the Wisconsin Northwoods that raised both Labs and Weims, where the Silvers emerged from heavy inbreeding? Pretty remote.


----------



## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think what you have to look at are what of the chances of two purebred dilutes meeting at Crist Culo, a kennel in the Wisconsin Northwoods that raised both Labs and Weims, where the Silvers emerged from heavy inbreeding? Pretty remote.


However, to say this is the source of all silver (dilute) genes in the Labrador breed is a stretch.

Just as there are known crosses between Chessies and Labs (some people even brag about this), one should not make the leap that the brown color in Labs comes from these fringe folk.

Very few breeders of this sort have the far-reaching effect on a breed you seem to be crediting this WI kennel with. Easy enough to find out: do all the "silver" Labs currently trace back to this one kennel?

Lisa


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

> Very few breeders of this sort have the far-reaching effect on a breed you seem to be crediting this WI kennel with. Easy enough to find out: do all the "silver" Labs currently trace back to this one kennel?


Actually this topic has come up on other forums quite a few times. To date no one has come forward with ANY silver Lab pedigree without that kennel name in it. One person swore her silver Lab didn't descend from that kennel and in fact it didn't show in her pedigree but 5 generations back, there it was! Now we have a European and US owner of silver Labs posting here; wonder if they'd be willing to post the pedigrees?

My sister's rescue silver Lab is a product of a brother sister breeding. All 4 grandparents (both of them ;-) ) are from that kennel.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

I'll look at mine. He came from TNT and I know what there reputation is now. I know his dad is black and his mother was a "silver factored" chocolate. All of his littermates were chocolate as well. I still would like to know, however the color came about, does it have a place in the field? Does it hurt the purpose for the breed? 

The sad part is that anyone could, and probably has, mix a lab with a weim to get this color. They could care less about the rest of the breed standard, it's all about money. I would even be willing to bet, that even if the AKC found a way to stop registering them as chocolate, that it wouldn't impact the sale of them. 

I know that Chieftain, from Silver Hill labs, has even won awards in conformation. That had to ruffle more than a few feathers! Does anyone know of any in field trials?

So.... How do you promote or ensure the rest of the breed standards, knowing that people want this color, and knowing unscrupulous breeders can and will take advantage of the situation?


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I know that Chieftain, from Silver Hill labs, has even won awards in conformation. That had to ruffle more than a few feathers! Does anyone know of any in field trials?


What awards? All I can find (granted my googling is a weakness), is that he's multi-titled.

http://www.redrockranch.net/silverstuds.htm


----------



## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I know that Chieftain, from Silver Hill labs, has even won awards in conformation. That had to ruffle more than a few feathers! Does anyone know of any in field trials?


If you're talking about the CD title, a CD is a basic _obedience _title... the very beginning level of obedience. It is in no way an indicator of how well a dog adheres to the written conformation breed standard and in fact, this dog would be disqualified in the conformation ring. 

The basic concept as I know it behind silvers is that the "breeders" who breed them are not breeding them for anything other than the color. I have yet to see a "silver breeder" who has done all proper health clearances, etc., though I *do* know more than a couple of people who have them as pets and have been having tremendous orthopedic problems and severe allergies in their dogs. I also know 2 people who have aggressive "silvers." If you don't have health and you don't have temperament in a labrador retriever, what _do_ you have? 

Can someone tell me where else in the world "silvers" are produced? I heard a couple of years ago two of them were exported to New Zealand _from_ a "breeder" in the United States, but haven't otherwise heard of them being bred (or arising naturally in a litter) anywhere else in the world. Granted, I'm nowhere near a "silver expert" nor would I want to be.


----------



## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Montview said:


> Can someone tell me where else in the world "silvers" are produced? I heard a couple of years ago two of them were exported to New Zealand _from_ a "breeder" in the United States, but haven't otherwise heard of them being bred (or arising naturally in a litter) anywhere else in the world. Granted, I'm nowhere near a "silver expert" nor would I want to be.



I saw a picture of some blues in a book about Lab breeding from England. It is the same dilution gene; when it acts on black, it produces blue, when it acts on brown, it produces "silver". Same goes for Newfs; the "blue" color is not as uncommon as some may think. It just gets bucketed, that's all.

Lisa


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

I found a silver lab breeder website that is for sale. The owner of the site is from Australia. Probably couldnt' find it again.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Now that is exactly why I am on this forum. I have no idea what title is what, I could look it up. I made an assumption, and I'm a little ticked off now. I blame myself but it's things like this that I think give the silver a bad name. Maybe they did not intend on misleading people. I had no idea, thought there was just FC and CH so it must be CH right. 

As fas as puppies for sale they are everywhere. Do a google search for "silver lab". In all honesty you'll find mine.


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Maybe they did not intend on misleading people.


I think you're giving them too much credit. I'm sorry you feel like you've been burned, but you came here to learn. There is no reason not to have a hunting buddy, or pet in your silver, but you're learning already.


----------



## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Can a good working/tempered dog be a bad color?

If you bred a black lab litter, and some had Bolo points, and two puppies had white on their chests, and one pup's white disappeared at one year of age and the other pups white chest had not disappeared by one year of age, would you consider the pup without the white a breeding prospect?

Irish Setters used to be red and white. How did they become, in the AKC /AKC breeders' eyes, just pure red? 

Are Fox Red labradors wrong? Are Cream-colored "GOLDENS" wrong? Will Chessie people realize curly-coated retrievers were the ancestors of their dogs (likely never--LOL)?

Airedale Terriers have been accepted into AKC spaniel hunt tests on a provisional basis. Many Airedales are FABULOUS hunting dogs.

If field trials are designed to test the best marking/lining/handling dogs, why aren't field trials open to every breed, whether the breed is designated as a retriever/spaniel/terrier/hearding dog or whatever?


----------



## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> The sad part is that anyone could, and probably has, mix a lab with a weim to get this color. They could care less about the rest of the breed standard, it's all about money.
> 
> So.... How do you promote or ensure the rest of the breed standards, knowing that people want this color, and knowing unscrupulous breeders can and will take advantage of the situation?


Yes you are correct. Even to you, by what your website(http://tkgavette.googlepages.com/savagehunterlabs) says, are trying to make money off of the color. IE a clip from your website ad:


> We currently do not have any puppies for sale.
> Taking deposits on future litter planned for spring of 2009. *****PUPPIES DUE MARCH 07 2009******
> Standard colors start at $199.00
> Diluted colors start at $799.00


The other sad part is, their seems to be ZERO health clearances.

Pot meet kettle,
Tim


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Pond River Kennels said:


> Yes you are correct. Even to you, by what your website(http://tkgavette.googlepages.com/savagehunterlabs) says, are trying to make money off of the color. IE a clip from your website ad:
> 
> The other sad part is, their seems to be ZERO health clearances.
> 
> ...


hmmmmmmmmm.......................Interesting observation.....


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

What's misleading, charging what the market will bear? I absolutely give a health guarantee. What's different in charging more for a color that people will pay more for, or a pup from that comes from a parent with a "title". The truth is this is only my second litter of puppies and I came here because I wanted to take that next step. I wanted to do in the field what I thought Chieftain had done in the ring. I figured with a lot of hard work and maybe a little luck it could happen. I guess I'll have to settle for just going out and having alot of fun with my friends and my dogs filling our limit of roosters, having a beer at the end of the evening and laughing about the one(s) that got away.

Since I put my ad on gundogbreeders.com, I have had well over a dozen calls from people looking for silver pups and exactly 0, ZERO, from anyone looking for a standard color. So yes, I'm guilty, but I tell all of them about the controversy, and they still pay.

BTW I only have 3 generations back with Gauge and no Cuolo that far back, but I don't doubt it.

Sorry, people work hard to get titles, and I apologies. I was a little fired up.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Culo is back about 5-6 generations by now. http://www.redrockranch.net/chiefspedigree.htm
Chieftan's OFA excellent hips don't come up on OFA either. I saw that website before. There is a silver that has a JH and it was from Silver Hills.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> What's misleading, charging what the market will bear? I absolutely give a health guarantee. What's different in charging more for a color that people will pay more for, or a pup from that comes from a parent with a "title". The truth is this is only my second litter of puppies and I came here because I wanted to take that next step. I wanted to do in the field what I thought Chieftain had done in the ring. I figured with a lot of hard work and maybe a little luck it could happen. I guess I'll have to settle for just going out and having alot of fun with my friends and my dogs filling our limit of roosters, having a beer at the end of the evening and laughing about the one(s) that got away.
> 
> Since I put my ad on gundogbreeders.com, I have had well over a dozen calls from people looking for silver pups and exactly 0, ZERO, from anyone looking for a standard color. So yes, I'm guilty, but I tell all of them about the controversy, and they still pay.
> 
> ...


People also spend a lot of money to get health clearances which doesn't look like you have bothered to do, at least for the dogs' names listed on your site. You seem to be looking for validation for breeding your "dilute" color because there are buyers for it. Fine and dandy, but at least do some research and understand what you are putting out there healthwise, have you even considered doing OFA, CERF, EIC, CNM? There's more to a Lab than its color. You want to take the next step and get into field work, you need to educate yourself on the breed you are already propagating first.


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Health clearances and proof of performance capabilities as evidenced by titles are essential elements for responsible breeding. None of the silvers I have seen advertised as breeding stock have had any of these, and they have come from long lines of similarly untitled and untested ancestors. 

When you begin breeding specifically for a recessive and rare characteristic, the importance of these clearances goes up geometrically. You are drawing from a smaller gene pool and are more likely to run into genetic deficiencies. A health guarantee is nice, assuming it doesn't contain so many conditions that it is rendered meaningless. However, the only useful assurance is the care you take as a breeder in verifying that your breeding stock are free of common genetic failings. 

I have no problem with people deciding to create a new breed or develop a new trait. However, to do this responsibly demands a much higher standard of practice and discipline than is needed when breeding more traditional lines. Instead, what we see among the breeders of silvers is a lower standard of practice. That is irresponsible breeding without regard to any controversy surrounding color.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Do. Not. Get. Me. Started. 
on the silver abberations up north. Puppies can leave home at *5 weeks?* And you get a really great guarantee...last time I looked it was a whole year! That means no chance of OFA. No pedigrees available, no clearances, no titles, no proof of any sort of trainability, and a chip on his shoulder the size of Lake Superior. I've seen way too many of his Weimadors up here, and the vast majority look just like Weims, with awful structure. Once in a while I'll see one that looks at least half Lab.


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

YardleyLabs said:


> Health clearances and proof of performance capabilities as evidenced by titles are essential elements for responsible breeding. None of the silvers I have seen advertised as breeding stock have had any of these, and they have come from long lines of similarly untitled and untested ancestors.
> 
> When you begin breeding specifically for a recessive and rare characteristic, the importance of these clearances goes up geometrically. You are drawing from a smaller gene pool and are more likely to run into genetic deficiencies. A health guarantee is nice, assuming it doesn't contain so many conditions that it is rendered meaningless. However, the only useful assurance is the care you take as a breeder in verifying that your breeding stock are free of common genetic failings.
> 
> I have no problem with people deciding to create a new breed or develop a new trait. However, to do this responsibly demands a much higher standard of practice and discipline than is needed when breeding more traditional lines. Instead, what we see among the breeders of silvers is a lower standard of practice. That is irresponsible breeding without regard to any controversy surrounding color.



Extremely well said Jeff.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

My wife and I have had alot of discussions on if we should certify Gauges hips or not. I really never thought of doing it with Tona because both of her parents were OFA-G. I'll admit I didn't put alot of value on the test, but am starting to see differently. I believe that if someone pays money for a pup, then that pup is theirs, and what they do with it from there, breeding or otherwise, is none of my business. Does having a pup from to excelent or good ratings guarantee that they will not have problems, or does it just minimise the risk? The first time it struck me is when I saw on this site that you can not even list pups unless their parents are certified.
I guess step 2 is getting my dogs certified. I still don't understand why if its so important why the AKC would even let you register pups without certified parents?
I'm going to check with my vet for a reccomendation. I do insist that all of the puppies get a vet check up before they go to new homes. He gives them their first shot(s) and worms them, and does a quick manual hip check for me. I wouldn't dream of selling an "unhealthy" puppy. I'm beginning to see that there are different views of "healthy". Not just for my reputation, but I wouldn't want anyone to get attached to their pup and to have something happen.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I love silver labs and every house should own 2....

I did title one at the JH level you know.... 

Can one retire on the puppies silver labs produce.... 

Inquiring minds want to know???

Angie


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

There are Times when everyone should Regard new users lOgging into the Little Local group as not worth your attention- this is one of them.

Wasted days and wasted nights regards

Bubba


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Bubba said:


> There are Times when everyone should Regard new users lOgging into the Little Local group as not worth your attention- this is one of them.
> 
> Wasted days and wasted nights regards
> 
> Bubba


You're right-no one could be that ill-informed.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Bubba said:


> There are Times when everyone should Regard new users lOgging into the Little Local group as not worth your attention- this is one of them.
> 
> Wasted days and wasted nights regards
> 
> Bubba


Bubba that was very clever,,, Whoda thunk it....

Gearing up for the weekend are yeeee,,, HeeHeeHee...

Cooking sherry anyone???

Angie


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Bubba said:


> There are Times when everyone should Regard new users lOgging into the Little Local group as not worth your attention- this is one of them.
> 
> Wasted days and wasted nights regards
> 
> Bubba


And then there are grumpy old farts who know everything about everything and will go to their grave wondering why their are so many stupid ignorant people in the world. If only they had helped instead of rolling their eyes and calling names. If you don't want to help quit wasting your time reading this thread I'm sure you have other people to look down on from on high.

I'm trying to get information. Where did you go to learn about breeding dogs? I have to start somewhere, if you don't want it to be here, then where?


----------



## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

Just think of all the $$$$$$$$$$$$ one could make with a sire and dam that are JHs and have all the clearances.

There is your early retirement Angie.

Tim


----------



## K.Bolan (Feb 1, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> http://www.redrockranch.net/chiefspedigree.htm Chieftan's OFA excellent hips don't come up on OFA either. I saw that website before. There is a silver that has a JH and it was from Silver Hills.


I have spoke with Hollie and she has put a lot of time and effort into her lines. I have been looking at the silvers for a while now and hers look the best.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Pond River Kennels said:


> Just think of all the $$$$$$$$$$$$ one could make with a sire and dam that are JHs and have all the clearances.
> 
> There is your early retirement Angie.
> 
> Tim


I'm sooo excited!!!!! 

Angie


----------



## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Silver labs, white dobies, white shepards all are disqualifications in their respective breed. For a reason. Why would you want to deal with all the difficulties that comes from poorly bred dogs that exist solely because of their color and not due to any top drawer performance, or conformation attributes.

Breeding sound dogs is already hard enough. You start with crap, you end up with crap.

You are part of the reason so many AR people want to shut breeders down. 

If you truly want to be a breeder not a producer, use the vast amount of knowledge that exists on this forum to learn what a good Lab is. But, realize that if you come here with a chip on your shoulder you will not get a single thing from these amazing people. 

Train your dogs (and not just a JH or CD), OFA your dogs, do CERFs, optigen, CNM and EIC testing. Then think about breeding, but not before.


----------



## danae (Feb 21, 2009)

Bubba said:


> Hmmm grand total of 3 posts and a gmail address?


Wow - now I feel welcome. I've used gmail exclusively for years, we change ISP's every few years and I do too much online (financial, family, recreation) to have to change it in 100+ places.

Going back to lurking now. ;-)


----------



## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*My Chiro just told me he bought a Silver lab???? I said show me on the AKC sheet where you marked Silver for the color

Chiro Regards,

Aaron*


----------



## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

My biggest beef is the "English Cream Colored Goldens". 
I went to a high school bb game last night and the ticket lady was telling her friend about her new puppy . So I played dumb and had to ask.
She was very proud to tell me all about her New Puppy that she bought for 1K.
"It was from those English Cream bloodlines".
I heard my daughter mumbling "Oh boy here we go".
So I let it go and went inside the gym.
Sue


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

ginger69 said:


> My biggest beef is the "English Cream Colored Goldens".
> I went to a high school bb game last night and the ticket lady was telling her friend about her new puppy . So I played dumb and had to ask.
> She was very proud to tell me all about her New Puppy that she bought for 1K.
> "It was from those English Cream bloodlines".
> ...


Who won???


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I'm trying to get information. Where did you go to learn about breeding dogs? I have to start somewhere, if you don't want it to be here, then where?


I've had Chesapeakes since 1982 and bred an occasional litter. I was one of those breeders in the late '80s/early 90s that said, "Oh, my vet has looked at the hips and they're fine"  but since mine mostly went as gundogs or farm dogs, no one ever seemed to care. I never owned or bred a dysplastic dog that I know of, but I also didn't know back then a dog can be dysplastic with few or no symptoms. Once I found out about what a high rate of dysplasia the CBR has compared to other breeds, and a bit more about other genetic woes, I've tried to be responsible and educate myself and my puppy buyers. I've also never hesitated to seek help or advice from those with many years of experience in the breed. Probably the best form of education you can get (and it also helps you establish a network that will be invaluable to your success as a breeder) is to get involved with hunt tests, obedience or conformation shows, although the silvers would be disqualified from the latter. 

A word here, too about the AKC. It is merely a registry; it does NOT set the 'standard' for the various breeds nor does it police the registrations sent in. The parent club (in your case, LRC) does that. It votes on and sets the standard for the breed, just as the ACC does for Chesapeakes. It is the breed club, not the AKC, that decides what colors can be registered, but AKC does not forbid you from registering a piebald mutt or even a cat as a black, yellow or chocolate Lab--only your integrity does.

This thread is timely for me as back in December a few in the show community started spreading rumors via dog boards and email lists that I'm unethical and breed my CBRs only for color; my ads are deceitful and misleading and a few other absurd rumors such as theft and falsifying AKC records. And this even though ash is specifically mentioned as an acceptable color in the ACC's own standard. I've always had the occasional ash pup, but had quite a few ash puppies born recently, to dogs I own or bred. It's a color that I happen to like and it's always been in my lines, but the very LAST thing I would do is breed for color or any other single trait. 

However, right on time to play into the hands of the show hags, my BROWN bitch whelped 10 puppies sired by a DEADGRASS MH and half were ash. I admit I've hissed up and ruffled feathers of the show hags and their minions by placing a few outrageous joke ads and renaming my ash Peakes "SilverFreaks" and even calling the very light (dilute deadgrass) cream shade "Polar Peakes" even offered up a mauve show dog in one ad (with a large disclaimer saying it was a joke). Actually SilverFreak is what we call my young ash bitch Panda as she has wild eyes, but it's caught on. There is, IMO, no such thing as bad publicity, but if you are under scrutiny you do have to dot every i and cross every t for sure.

The round about point I'm trying to make to tkgavette is, the best way to start a good breeding program is to take one or two of your best dogs and start training in some venue where you can put title(s) on the dog. Join the parent club, the LRC. Insist on clearances for all your breeding stock--for Labs this would be OFA Fair at MINIMUM on hips, preferably good or excellent, normal elbows, get the eyes examined annually and cull any animals with genetic eye defects; and get the DNA tests for CNM, EIC and PRA and breed around those issues responsibly. 


Below are the 5 ash pups from my Jan. litter; I'm pretty proud of them. Because of the furor and rage the color seems to generate, along with the catty rumors, I ONLY sold these to homes that will title the dog. Yesterday, I turned down $2,000 for one of the ash females (man that was hard!) but right now it's important to me the dogs prove they're good dogs first and ash second. As for the color, I'm not worried about what the hags say as it's written right in the Chesapeake standard that it's perfectly acceptable. And I for one give thanks we don't all like the same thing! 

For all you SILVERFREAK lovers: I do have an ash male available for sale--owners must agree to title him though! He's in the middle, below:


----------



## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

ginger69 said:


> My biggest beef is the "English Cream Colored Goldens".
> I went to a high school bb game last night and the ticket lady was telling her friend about her new puppy . So I played dumb and had to ask.
> She was very proud to tell me all about her New Puppy that she bought for 1K.
> "It was from those English Cream bloodlines".
> ...


A while back Cesar had a nasty "British White Retriever" on his show. It sure looked like a Golden to me. This was one of the times my googling skills didn't kick my butt. Sure enough, it's a "fancy fluffy" as I called it. Just a light colored golden. Kind of like how people sell "white" labs. Oh yeah, they're registered as goldens though, but these are from Britain. A scam for the suckers.


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> Breeding sound dogs is already hard enough. You start with crap, you end up with crap.


Pretty much says it all. Good job.

kg


----------



## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Is there any retriever site that welcome's silver lab owners ?


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

SLAB said:


> Is there any retriever site that welcome's silver lab owners ?


I think this site is fairly friendly to owners of silver labs. Breeders and promoters of silver labs, probably not. As an owner of a silver lab, you can't be too thin skinned and need to notice which comments are aimed at the breeding and promotion of silvers rather than the individual dogs or owners.

I don't think you'll find anyone here who doesn't think you should train, hunt and test/trial your dog if you choose.


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Welcome Slab! 

if you take the color out of the picture, you'll find that everyone here is 'dog people'....  The silver lab debate has of course received a lot of attn...as to whether they are pure bred or not....the history behind the color, I do find interesting and I would love to see DNA test results not because I think they are not pure bred, but because I think there are probably instances of both......the ethical debate behind the coloration continues....

Regarding training posts/questions I always get a chuckle when people state 'blf' or 'ylm', or 'chessie' or 'golden' (of which I am guity! LOL)....sometimes it is important to know the breed, but most of the time it is not.....I don't think it makes much difference for a majority of the questions (they are still dogs in the end).....now age of the dog might, or level of training, or pedigree even, but not generally the type, color, or size of dog (when referring to training questions)....LOL


nice looking pup in your avatar, BTW.  

Juli


----------



## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

SLAB said:


> Is there any retriever site that welcome's silver lab owners ?


Welcome to RTF! Just train and have fun with your dog. If someone has a problem with the color of your dog, well...it's their problem. If you haven't already you might want to see if there is a AKC or a UKC retriever club in your area and go and check them out.


----------



## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

SLAB said:


> Is there any retriever site that welcome's silver lab owners ?


Welcome, Slab.... You have to realize that awhile back when blacks were the only way they culled yellows because they looked to much like hound dogs.... now they are very popular, so it may take 50 to 75 years for silvers to be excepted.


----------



## MoJo (Mar 24, 2004)

Welcome Slab! RTF is a great resource and I for one look forward to hearing about your dog's progress.


----------



## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

SLAB said:


> Is there any retriever site that welcome's silver lab owners ?


 It's nice to see another silver owner . i hope you have fun on here.


----------

