# Collar Conditioning.......I start them young



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

This dog will be off leash from here on in. I'm doing a 3 part series on his initial collar conditioning. This is 3 parts of about a 15 minute session broken up. The other 2 parts will follow the next 2 days if anyone is interested in watching. 

This is setting the framework for the variety of things that will be done during this session.


PART 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiRCC05awm4 

PART 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iN12G2WXY


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I personally believe in just letting them be puppies at this point. One critque is based on the amount of scratching is, that he was either getting juice way to often or was not used to the wearing the collar yet. Both are training faux pas in my book.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Another commercial. "You really get to see in our program". By the looks of it the puppy has never had the pleasure of a sit down meal, only kibble thrown at him.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

popcorn at 8:30 is a good breakfast


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Another damn saturday morning infomerical


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks for sharing your expertice from decades of experience and probably thousands of dogs by now,,,,. with us free of charge

I always watch closely

Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Thousands ?

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTThousands ?][/QUOTE]

More than likely.
He has worked with lots of pet type dogs and those numbers can rack up pretty fast.I know 250 a year is not out of the question.

It would probably give him a totally different perspective than those who have only worked with a few retrievers within the retriever sports. 
And the really cool thing about it is,,,,it is all applicable to the retriever sports.
Got to go mow

Pete


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Pete said:


> Thanks for sharing your expertice from decades of experience and probably thousands of dogs by now,,,,. with us free of charge
> 
> I always watch closely
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete. A few years ago before I retired from my crazy seminar schedule in which I was usually booked 48 weekends a year, with 30-50 dogs per seminar, and collar conditioning every one of them through the weekend, not counting our regular business when I was home, and a quarter of those seminars being working dogs (Police, FF etc, etc) I would have to agree that much is to be learned by collar conditioning shy, timid dogs and all the other varieties out there.

I always liked the working dog seminars because they were much, much easier, and anyone that doesn't think that there are many, many, many working caliber dogs in the pet community, obviously has never had a very large pet business. I'm sure all of you know someone with a really nice dog that isn't owned by a working dog person.

I've never turned a dog away at a seminar, and have invited anyone for free that said they have, or know someone who has a dog that was ruined by a collar. I love what I do, and am ever evolving. It's fun to watch them grow.


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Pete said:


> [QUOTThousands ?][/QUOTE]
> 
> More than likely.
> He has worked with lots of pet type dogs and those numbers can rack up pretty fast.I know 250 a year is not out of the question.
> ...


He has trained thousands of dogs? How many of those has he titled or won ribbons with in a hunt test or field trial? It must be more than the six dogs that I found on EE. I guess it wasn't six dogs but rather one dog that he ran in the junior and senior hunt test.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

greg magee said:


> I personally believe in just letting them be puppies at this point. One critque is based on the amount of scratching is, that he was either getting juice way to often or was not used to the wearing the collar yet. Both are training faux pas in my book.


You can wear the collar til the cows come home, but that's not going to get him any more used to the stimulation when it starts.

Are you suggesting that if he was 6 months, 2 years, or 10 years old that no way he's going to scratch? O.K....if you say so.

Do you think that putting a choke chain on a dog for 5 years and letting him wear it is going to make him know any better what it means, or his comfort level of it when you start pulling on it?

Do you think that having a dog sit in an elevator that is not moving for 10 years, is going to get more accustomed to it when it starts going up?

Why don't you let a dog wear a buckle collar for 2 months before you attach a leash to it?

Why do you put a leash on a puppy as soon as you have him? Shouldn't you let him drag it on the ground for 3 weeks before you actually pick it up, then he'll be good to go?

He needs to be taught no matter when you cut the cake. You are still back at square one when you finally pull the leash, hit the 'down' button on an escalator to get it moving, or press the button on a remote the first time he feels it.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Handler Error said:


> He has trained thousands of dogs? How many of those has he titled or won ribbons with in a hunt test or field trial? It must be more than the six dogs that I found on EE. I guess it wasn't six dogs but rather one dog that he ran in the junior and senior hunt test.


I'd totally agree. All the more reason that your collar conditioning should be a lot better than what I'm doing. Would look bad on you if mine is even anywhere near the ballpark of yours, cause you are the expert here, I didn't claim to be....just showing my stuff. I would be happy to view some collar conditioning of yours in video or in person and will have no problem with you absolutely embarrassing me to no end. In fact, I'd be awful disappointed if you couldn't do just that with all of your experience and my lack of it. Show me.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Pete said:


> Thanks for sharing your expertice from decades of experience and probably thousands of dogs by now,,,,. with us free of charge
> 
> I always watch closely
> 
> Pete


So Pete, can you tell exactly what he's doing? How many times is he burning? How often is he burning? At what intensity is he burning? Is it everytime the puppy scratches at his neck? Does he go up and down in intensity to achieve the desired outcome? Where is the teaching? He *never *reveals the specifics-In order to know you have to buy something.


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## twoduckdogs (Jan 12, 2009)

teach with the leash, reinforce with the collar i work with my client and my own personal dogs everyday 15 min sessions and it takes more than two months to get a dog reliably healing off and on lead, im sorry i just dont think it a good idea to teach with the collar, its a real good way to burn a dog and then when you need the collar in advanced work all you get is SHUT DOWN.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Hey Fred- now that Billy Mays is off peddling Angel Wing Wax and Halo spot remover and the Whack-A-Ho guy (The Shamwow guy) is kinda out of favor you have a unique opportunity.

Spring into action there big feller!!! With your talent for BS- you could earn some serious money instead of boring me to death.

Sailboat Fuel regards

Bubba


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

twoduckdogs said:


> teach with the leash, reinforce with the collar i work with my client and my own personal dogs everyday 15 min sessions and it takes more than two months to get a dog reliably healing off and on lead, im sorry i just dont think it a good idea to teach with the collar, its a real good way to burn a dog and then when you need the collar in advanced work all you get is SHUT DOWN.


You mean all YOU get is shut down. What you are getting is the results of your knowledge. Nothing more, and nothing less.


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## freefall319 (Jan 31, 2010)

Bubba said:


> Hey Fred- now that Billy Mays is off peddling Angel Wing Wax and Halo spot remover and the Whack-A-Ho guy (The Shamwow guy) is kinda out of favor you have a unique opportunity.
> 
> Spring into action there big feller!!! With your talent for BS- you could earn some serious money instead of boring me to death.
> 
> ...


Verbal judo at it's best!


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

fredhassen said:


> I'd totally agree. All the more reason that your collar conditioning should be a lot better than what I'm doing. Would look bad on you if mine is even anywhere near the ballpark of yours, cause you are the expert here, I didn't claim to be....just showing my stuff. I would be happy to view some collar conditioning of yours in video or in person and will have no problem with you absolutely embarrassing me to no end. In fact, I'd be awful disappointed if you couldn't do just that with all of your experience and my lack of it. Show me.


I tried to keep my mouth shut...really I did. But dude! You have three trips to the line in Senior...and you failed twice. Then you come here and post videos about how great your CC is. Someone calls you on it and you try to say it is *his* responsibility to show you how he does it. He didn't come here trying to sell himself or some new way to do things that obviously doesn't work as well as the way things are already being done.

Now I'm not selling myself as a pro trainer, but here is what I got, just to save you the trouble of looking it up. 5 straight passes for the Senior title. Before the 2nd birthday. Doing it by the Carr/Lardy/take your pick, method. If you would like to view some collar conditioning I suggest you get the Lardy collar conditioning video. Pretty standard to the way it is done here. I watch it every night during CC.

The thing that irritates me most is your magician method. OOOOOH! look what I can do. I'm not going to talk about how it is done or the reasoning behind it, just be sooo impressed by the showmanship.

That crap only works on pet owners regards,


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Dang it, this is all my fault. I was just thinking the other day that we haven't been graced with Freds presence in a while.

Should have known the quarterly RTF spam was coming any day now...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Hey Fred- now that Billy Mays is off peddling Angel Wing Wax and Halo spot remover and the Whack-A-Ho guy (The Shamwow guy) is kinda out of favor you have a unique opportunity.
> 
> Spring into action there big feller!!! With your talent for BS- you could earn some serious money instead of boring me to death.
> 
> ...


Go Bubba!:grab:


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Bubba's funny


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> You mean all YOU get is shut down. What you are getting is the results of your knowledge. Nothing more, and nothing less.


I'm thinking he might not know a shut down when he sees it........ got a dog back out of a bad situation. Put that collar on her now, and I get nothin' _I _want to see. The person that did that to her also thought she knew everything. Now, I get to FF before CC, and the cc is a great challenge. Until I get her moving away from my side and not up my butt with a collar on, I've got nothing.

I just *love* people who think they know it all......


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Is that a Candlewoods Man in Black pup ?


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> I'm thinking he might not know a shut down when he sees it........ got a dog back out of a bad situation. Put that collar on her now, and I get nothin' _I _want to see. The person that did that to her also thought she knew everything. Now, I get to FF before CC, and the cc is a great challenge. Until I get her moving away from my side and not up my butt with a collar on, I've got nothing.
> 
> I just *love* people who think they know it all......


Have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously in the video, the dog is working away from me and not up my butt. You will see a lot more in part 2 that I will post shortly.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Bubba said:


> Hey Fred- now that Billy Mays is off peddling Angel Wing Wax and Halo spot remover and the Whack-A-Ho guy (The Shamwow guy) is kinda out of favor you have a unique opportunity.
> 
> Spring into action there big feller!!! With your talent for BS- you could earn some serious money instead of boring me to death.
> 
> ...



Clean up your addiction to watching each and every one of them, and you won't be so bored.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Yeah Fred you are such an armature. Dont you know you are supposed to stop training when the dog scratches. You have never fixed a dog that has been ruined by an e-collar before.:-x

Just trying to fit in..

"You know its true. When something exceeds your ability to understand how it works it sorta becomes magical."-Steve Jobs

Regards,


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> This dog will be off leash from here on in. I'm doing a 3 part series on his initial collar conditioning. This is 3 parts of about a 15 minute session broken up. The other 2 parts will follow the next 2 days if anyone is interested in watching.
> 
> This is setting the framework for the variety of things that will be done during this session.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiRCC05awm4


I'm not going to form a opinion one way or the other until you show all 3 video's and explain the reasoning behind it.
I would like to know the objective of a e-collar on a 2 mo old puppy?


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

fredhassen said:


> You can wear the collar til the cows come home, but that's not going to get him any more used to the stimulation when it starts.
> 
> Are you suggesting that if he was 6 months, 2 years, or 10 years old that no way he's going to scratch? O.K....if you say so.
> 
> ...


All I'm saying Fred, is that I let them be puppies first and foremost, I would never juice the dog that many times in one session(regardless of age), I would make sure the dog is well accustomed to the feel of the collar long before I ever started conditioning, and I would never try such a willy-nilly(read experiment) approach to dog training. Don't see the point you were trying to get across other than you were smart/dumb enough to put a collar on such a young puppy. The Emperor has no clothes on regards


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

43x said:


> I'm not going to form a opinion one way or the other until you show all 3 video's and explain the reasoning behind it.
> I would like to know the objective of a e-collar on a 2 mo old puppy?


He's 13 weeks, not 8. Having a puppy that you can monitor much more easily with them getting into things, and having them go with you, and open their world and yours much easier and safer.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I realize this is a retriever forum and there is only 1 way to train a retriever.

Nancy
Most of the time I can tell when the dog is stimulated,,,but I'm also watching Fred interact with the dog to maximize learning.


Also I learn about the short comings of other posters. And how when they don't understand something that has been gone over and over they go on the attack and utilize belittling as ammo.. Its a common carnal response. 

If people refuse to learn something about a discipline that carries so much interest forthem ,,it doesn't matter whether you will use it all the time or not,,,then I would question if those who do think this way have nothing left to learn in which case I'm all ears

Back to mowing

Pete


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> He's 13 weeks, not 8. Having a puppy that you can monitor much more easily with them getting into things, and having them go with you, and open their world and yours much easier and safer.


I'm going off your own video, "Born April 4, video taken June 2nd

That's 2 month in my book 

Fred , you still haven't answered the question about the e-collar ? What's its purpose on this puppy ?


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Pete said:


> I realize this is a retriever forum and there is only 1 way to train a retriever.
> 
> Nancy
> Most of the time I can tell when the dog is stimulated,,,but I'm also watching Fred interact with the dog to maximize learning.
> ...


Hi Pete! Here's Part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iN12G2WXY


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

greg magee said:


> All I'm saying Fred, is that I let them be puppies first and foremost, I would never juice the dog that many times in one session(regardless of age), I would make sure the dog is well accustomed to the feel of the collar long before I ever started conditioning, and I would never try such a willy-nilly(read experiment) approach to dog training. Don't see the point you were trying to get across other than you were smart/dumb enough to put a collar on such a young puppy. The Emperor has no clothes on regards



Great! Sounds like your program is working wonderfully for you. Continued success!


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Which video looks like more fun for the dog, Freds or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWNDVEngc_I


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

greg magee said:


> Which video looks like more fun for the dog, Freds or this one
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWNDVEngc_I


Yes, that's a nice 9 week old puppy video. Nice dog.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Funny you would post a PN video when everyone here has already agreed to disagree with his methods...

It's my understanding that you all use leash corrections to teach the dog and the "e-collar for correcting known commands." 

Pat's philosophy is very similar to Fred's.



> Originally, the e-collar was only used in the proofing step to correct or force on known responses. However, the e-collar is a perfect tool for *teaching *almost any action.
> 
> Rather than tugging on the leash or pushing the dog into position, we will use low-level e-collar taps to apply very slight but noticeable pressure that encourages him to act. When using the e-collar in this way, even training tasks traditionally taught only positively, for example, tricks and agility sport, are quickly and easily taught. This system of using the e-collar is even gentler than traditional leash training methods, offers increased reliability and, because the e-collar provides instant feedback to your dog, *it accelerates his learning*.
> 
> As the demands of obedience and the distraction levels increase in the proofing stage, you can match the intensity level perfectly for your dog and the situation, rewarding or discouraging his actions and his decisions without being subject to limitations of distance. Again, *this accelerates your dog’s learning and requires less pressure than some traditional methods of training*. Before we turn to the mechanics of e-collar training, let’s look at what learning theorists call *Discovery Learning*.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

43x said:


> I'm going off your own video, "Born April 4, video taken June 2nd
> 
> That's 2 month in my book
> 
> Fred , you still haven't answered the question about the e-collar ? What's its purpose on this puppy ?


Oh s---! I took that video last night! Will have to fix that.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> Have no idea what you are talking about. .


No, of course not. Dogs shut down in differnt ways. That's what I was commenting on. You might not be aware of that.

Personally, I'm not going to add to your free advertising anymore, and am just going to let you play by yourself.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think the point was is Pat is showing the correct method in that you don't pull the toy out of the pups mouth as is being done repeatedly in Fred's videos.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

My wife did not appreciate my last post, so I was forced to delete it!! Sorry for that!


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> I'd totally agree. All the more reason that your collar conditioning should be a lot better than what I'm doing. Would look bad on you if mine is even anywhere near the ballpark of yours, cause _you are the expert here, I didn't claim to be_....just _showing_ my stuff. I would be happy to view some collar conditioning of yours in video or in person and will have no problem with you absolutely embarrassing me to no end. In fact, I'd be awful disappointed if you couldn't do just that with all of your experience and my lack of it. Show me.


I am sorry Freddy but the dog I am currently running in license field trials is beyond CC so unfortunately, I will be unable to show you how I CC my dog. 
A couple things
1. Why should my CC'ing be better than yours? Aren't you the one selling I mean showing your stuff and not me?
2. Why do you call me an expert? I am an amateur. I don't come on here trying to sell something. Just because I know more than you doesn't make me a pro. 
3. Why are you allowed to post this [email protected]#% on this board without paying for advertising. 
4. I don't need to embarrass you to no end, you seem to be doing a fine job of that yourself.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

I normally do not contribute to these threads but someone asked earlier what is gained or the purpose of putting a e collar on a puppy??????? Money plain and simple.

A person I know through work has a rescue lab mix about a year old and he was needing help with obedience and contacted several businesses in the area. Sit Means Sit was one of them. Scott told me a rep came out and explained the program and the price (which I do not remember) but the program included the purchasing of a e collar. The wife said no and they went another direction. This person needed help with the dog listening to his wife when he was not around so that the dog didn't jump up on the kids and knock them down. They did not need to buy an e collar. They have since worked with the dog and she is a happy member of their family.

Janet


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## Wayne Beck (Mar 22, 2010)

Byron Musick said:


> My wife did not appreciate my last post, so I was forced to delete it!! Sorry for that!


umm.. well i guess I know who wears the pants in your house!!! HAHA


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Well I watched both videos but I still have no idea what you were trying to accomplish. I know there are a lot of ways to train a dog and pretty much all of them will work if you stay at it long enough but I'm amazed that as as pro you don't seem to recognize that by the end of the 2nd video, your pup was offering lots of "avoidance" behavior. He switched toys, he rolled on the ground. He was way past the stage where he could learn anything but you kept on. One question. Would you want to be your dog? Do you think he's learning to enjoy training? Face it Fred, you're no fun. A training session w/ you means nothing but pain and boredom. The only rewarding part of this training session was the tug of war he played w/ the toy.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

ccm352 said:


> umm.. well i guess I know who wears the pants in your house!!! HAHA


You're so right!!  

I think everyone should be entitled to post up a training video, and let the critics post what they may!!!

I'm of the opinion this is so far above my comprehension I haven't a clue!! But that's not something new!!


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## blackdogs (Jan 8, 2006)

I knew that name was familiar:
Fred Hassen
http://www.sitmeanssit.com/


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

WOW!!!!!!!! that poor Pup


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

43x said:


> Is that a Candlewoods Man in Black pup ?


 



Yes it is. I have a littermate and she is one hell of a pup.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

I sorry Fred, I just do not understand what you are doing. How are you CC you pup. Are you nicking him? For what? Are burning him? Is this drill about being on the Place platform? If not explain.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> Yes it is. I have a littermate and she is one hell of a pup.


Well, Cash is a heck of a dog with a ton of go.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Steve Shaver said:


> Yes it is. I have a littermate and she is one hell of a pup.


That really doesn't surprise me, i read somewhere that Judy Aycock had a couple of young Candlewoods Man in Black dogs, that should tell a person something


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Mark Sehon said:


> I sorry Fred, I just do not understand what you are doing. How are you CC you pup. Are you nicking him? For what? Are burning him? Is this drill about being on the Place platform? If not explain.


I think respectfully worded inquiries are appropriate and should be rewarded with sound responses.

Fred, please share some detail. Obviously you are back to post more videos (which frankly is a bit of a surprise after the last go-'round with training videos)

This inquiry certainly warrants some detailed response.

Thanks! Chris


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I couldn't let this pass. Pack Leader said,


> "Yeah, Fred you are such an armature(sic)."


An Internet search for *armature* turned up this.....

_"In electrical engineering, an armature generally refers to one of the two principal electrical components of an electromechanical machine.......the armature converts electrical power to mechanical torque, and power, unless the machine is stalled, and transfers it to the load via the shaft."_ 

Interestingly and possibly applicable to dog training is the fact that _"a growler is used to check the armature for shorts, opens and grounds"._

Getting a charge out of this thread while being a retired physics teacher regards, Jim


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## Don Schlaf (Apr 3, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> Yes it is. I have a littermate and she is one hell of a pup.


Steve you little girl is mighty fine little pup! 

I watched Steve let his puppy be a puppy today.......Not being baked on a piece of plywood.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Don Schlaf said:


> Steve you little girl is mighty fine little pup!
> 
> I watched Steve let his puppy be a puppy today.......Not being baked on a piece of plywood.


This is not the sort of inquiry likely to draw some constructive response from Fred.

Chris


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Steve, don't tell me thats you pup's brother that is on Fred's video!!!!! If that pup is anywhere as nice as your little "Pocket" this is a terrible waste of real talent! Makes me kind of sad, when I remember how loving and playful you were with your pup and the kind of results you were getting.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I think respectfully worded inquiries are appropriate and should be rewarded with sound responses.
> 
> Fred, please share some detail. Obviously you are back to post more videos (which frankly is a bit of a surprise after the last go-'round with training videos)
> 
> ...


I am teaching him with stimulation to pick up things, return, sit, etc in this video. I really have no idea how others train with a collar other than everyone uses the 'Lardy/Carr' method, even though I'm sure a fraction of the people's dogs look like either Lardy or Carr's dogs.  

I am teaching him stimulation like I would a deaf dog at this point, because he really doesn't know the concepts of turning back straight etc, so I am linking the stimulation with visual barriers (placeboards) and body language to teach him what the stimulation means.

I understand that lots of people here would not grasp the concept because they believe the collar should be in the back pocket and bring it out to correct him, and that's fine. I don't operate that way and use it as a teaching tool, an enforcement tool, and everything else. It's a line of communication. It can obviously be done because I'm doing it and it's not trick photography.

I don't earpinch any of my dogs, and I start them understanding stimulation in every phase of learning. It's adjustable, and each individual has different reads on a dog, so I'm reading the dog and moving and helping him into the response. Again, it's a line of communication between me and the dog. 

So yes, I'm using it quite a bit throughout the clip and making adjustments as I go. A football team has every play designed to go for a touchdown, but there obviously is a defense countering everything so that you have to make adjustments. Same thing here. In a perfect world, if he doesn't do it you'd just press the button and that would get him to do it, which correlates with the thought pattern of it only being used to reinforce known commands. I don't subscribe to that theory, and if I did I could never teach a deaf dog, nor could I teach a lot of behaviors like this to a puppy with clear communication. 

I just put the video up because it's a very rare video (I don't have puppies very often), and I've had many people request it. I get close to 50,000 views per day on my channel, and I've read here where lots of people put very strict limitations on what can be done with a collar, so I posted this for anyone that may want to know what others are doing. A lot of the responses are on my 'blocked' list, and I already know what they say without reading them. Anyway, I thought it would classify as training, and I certainly am not going to get into starting to post video after video. I just thought this one was important for the people to see. My apologies if it wasn't.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I'm sorry, but watching that first video makes me sad. I have a pup just a few days older, and she knows the basics (sit for her meals, Come, Stand, Down, etc), and a few more fun things (puppy teeter, live pigeon retrieves, etc), all achieved w/ positive training. The rest can come later. For now, I guess I just like to have a bit more fun with my pups.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> 1. Why should my CC'ing be better than yours? Aren't you the one selling I mean showing your stuff and not me?
> 2. Why do you call me an expert? I am an amateur. I don't come on here trying to sell something. Just because I know more than you doesn't make me a pro.
> 3. Why are you allowed to post this [email protected]#% on this board without paying for advertising.
> 4. I don't need to embarrass you to no end, you seem to be doing a fine job of that yourself.


No one ever said it was better,,,just a different way of doing something. It also can have applications for problems which crop up in working retrievers along with other dog stuff.
Also I don't now if you have seen the focus clips fred and pack have put up here,but there aren't to many people anywhere that can get that kind of focus out of a young dog.

So there are many extra bonuses you can get from this approach.


New people who seek low impact stim would enjoy using it.
But if your going to run big dog stuff and plan on winning then you'll have to probably use the big names approach.

But if its a MH your after then this can be a way to go for a lot of people.
Its not that its better it just has different uses andthe understanding of it will help you grow as a trainer. Nothing more and nothing less

Pete


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

2tall said:


> Steve, don't tell me thats you pup's brother that is on Fred's video!!!!! If that pup is anywhere as nice as your little "Pocket" this is a terrible waste of real talent! Makes me kind of sad, when I remember how loving and playful you were with your pup and the kind of results you were getting.


Guess we'll find out soon enough now, won't we.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Hey Fred, I'm just glad your back with another Retriever, so sorry for your loss of Charger, and I am so glad to see you get back in the game with this lovely Kohl!! 

You have a lot to prove and I think you will get there! I like others simply do not understand what you video is doing, maybe some more intel?? Good luck and have fun!!


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think the point was is Pat is showing the correct method in that you don't pull the toy out of the pups mouth as is being done repeatedly in Fred's videos.


Thank you Nancy!


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Byron Musick said:


> Hey Fred, I'm just glad your back with another Retriever, so sorry for your loss of Charger, and I am so glad to see you get back in the game with this lovely Kohl!!
> 
> You have a lot to prove and I think you will get there! I like others simply do not understand what you video is doing, maybe some more intel?? Good luck and have fun!!


Thanks Byron, yeah they pretty much said I was gonna get laughed on the field with Charger as well.  Believe me, I understand that a mindset that can't see beyond 'Correction only' would have a lot of trouble grasping this. Invitation to stop by and visit is always open to you. Peace.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTE
Well I watched both videos but I still have no idea what you were trying to accomplish. I know there are a lot of ways to train a dog and pretty much all of them will work if you stay at it long enough but I'm amazed that as as pro you don't seem to recognize that by the end of the 2nd video, your pup was offering lots of "avoidance" behavior. He switched toys, he rolled on the ground. He was way past the stage where he could learn anything but you kept on. One question. Would you want to be your dog? Do you think he's learning to enjoy training? Face it Fred, you're no fun. A training session w/ you means nothing but pain and boredom. The only rewarding part of this training session was the tug of war he played w/ the toy.
__________________
][/QUOTE]

That was controled play. I'll bet Fred also plays with his dogs in other ways including the one on the pat Nolan video.
That pup was in no more pain than your dog laying in the sun and decided it was time to get up and move into the shade.

Great thread,,,lots of fun

Pete


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Pete said:


> [QUOTE
> Well I watched both videos but I still have no idea what you were trying to accomplish. I know there are a lot of ways to train a dog and pretty much all of them will work if you stay at it long enough but I'm amazed that as as pro you don't seem to recognize that by the end of the 2nd video, your pup was offering lots of "avoidance" behavior. He switched toys, he rolled on the ground. He was way past the stage where he could learn anything but you kept on. One question. Would you want to be your dog? Do you think he's learning to enjoy training? Face it Fred, you're no fun. A training session w/ you means nothing but pain and boredom. The only rewarding part of this training session was the tug of war he played w/ the toy.
> __________________
> ]


That was controled play. I'll bet Fred also plays with his dogs in other ways including the one on the pat Nolan video.
That pup was in no more pain than your dog laying in the sun and decided it was time to get up and move into the shade.

Great thread,,,lots of fun

Pete[/quote]

They do kind of divulge themselves, eh?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

43x said:


> That really doesn't surprise me, i read somewhere that Judy Aycock had a couple of young Candlewoods Man in Black dogs, that should tell a person something


 

This little pup is sumpthin! She's a markin fool. Takes lazer straight lines, crashes through cover, swims like a fish, and now is doing doubles, in cover! She shows awesome memory and concentration. She is doing big dog stuff on a miniture scale. I am doing some serious training with this little 13 week old puppy but dont tell her she thinks she just having fun.
I have no problem with what Fred is doing with his pup I just dont understand why it is necessary at this age but there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Steve Shaver said:


> This little pup is sumpthin! She's a markin fool. Takes lazer straight lines, crashes through cover, swims like a fish, and now is doing doubles, in cover! She shows awesome memory and concentration. She is doing big dog stuff on a miniture scale. I am doing some serious training with this little 13 week old puppy but dont tell her she thinks she just having fun.
> I have no problem with what Fred is doing with his pup I just dont understand why it is necessary at this age but there is more than one way to skin a cat.



Sounds just like her brother here! Looking forward to seeing you at the tests! Keep in touch on when you are doing your first Jr. test so maybe we can do it together! I'll definetly be on the road full time with this dog as well! Absolutely no complaints at all about this dog!


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> I really have no idea how others train with a collar other than everyone uses the 'Lardy/Carr' method,
> 
> I am teaching him stimulation like I would a deaf dog at this point, because he really doesn't know the concepts of turning back straight etc, so I am linking the stimulation with visual barriers (placeboards) and body language to teach him what the stimulation means.



This doesn't make any sense at all! What do you mean "I'm teaching him stimulation"??? 

You know there is a whole body of corporate knowledge available from successful field dog trainers that you haven't bothered to explore. (by "successful" I'm talking about people who have trained dogs to perform at the highest levels, not people who measure success by the # of hits to their website ). Instead you post these disturbing videos that I guess you think are showing something impressive but I have no idea why. 

FYI, the term "collar conditioning" is generally used to describe the phase where the trainer shows the dog how to turn the collar off by responding in the desired manner. Most trainers manipulate the dog into compliance w/ a lead while giving continuous stimulation and immediately turn off the burn upon compliance. This is basic avoidance training and when done in a competent manner produces a dog that is confident because he understands how to turn off the pain. He's in control of the outcome. I find that by using clicker/treat training to teach the task followed later by the collar conditioning to enforce them, the dog makes the obvious choice to comply very consistently & in a stylish manner.

Your pup is confused (scratching) and begins to offer undesired responses (jumping on his crate, switching toys, etc.) because you don't give positive feedback to let him know what's correct, only negative feedback at what he perceives as random occasions. As I said earlier, you might be able to train a dog eventually (if he doesn't just quit on you) but why the hell would anyone chose to use pain to communicate what can easier be taught w/ praise, treats, etc.? I've got to ask, do you even like dogs?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> This little pup is sumpthin! She's a markin fool. Takes lazer straight lines, crashes through cover, swims like a fish, and now is doing doubles, in cover! She shows awesome memory and concentration. She is doing big dog stuff on a miniture scale. I am doing some serious training with this little 13 week old puppy but dont tell her she thinks she just having fun.
> .


Sounds like you have a good one: a derby prospect, not wasting time on a JH.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

I can't believe that people even reply to this crap.



.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Doc E said:


> I can't believe that people even reply to this crap.
> 
> 
> 
> .



I'm with you Doc! I'll even ante that up and say it's even more unbelievable that the same people carrying on are the same people watching them over and over and over and over and over and over again. Maybe your post will do some good? It's all just a big mirage that any second rate nimwit could do. It does get tiring, and I'm not sure how much longer I can keep hacking away to make the view counter always be high. It does defy all logical thought. I'm with ya.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Part 2 is just as strange 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iN12G2WXY&feature=channel



.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

fredhassen said:


> It does get tiring, and I'm not sure how much longer I can keep hacking away to make the* view counter always be high. *


And there you have it, out of his own mouth...(fingers?)


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Doc E said:


> Part 2 is just as strange
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iN12G2WXY&feature=channel
> 
> 
> ...


Oh no Doc! You don't mean to tell me you are watching them too still???
I've lost all faith in mankind.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

cakaiser said:


> And there you have it, out of his own mouth...(fingers?)


This one is going to be hard to beat as the best post in the thread. Sometimes I wonder whether it's real people answering these posts.


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## Chris V (Apr 7, 2010)

I may be green, maybe have never taken a dog far competitively. But I know that this is just plain dumb. Maybe you will prove us all wrong, but I am willing to bet not.

Just an opinion of a nobody that knows better.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

I'm still not sure how Fred is allowed to post multiple videos on RTF for a long stretch of time promoting his training business, yet I get a nastygram from mods when placing one post to the "for sale" forum about my dog-related business website. I don't begrudge the mods, I understood what they said to me and haven't done it sense. Just sayin....


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> ... I just thought this one was important for the people to see. My apologies if it wasn't.


Apology accepted.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> I understand that lots of people here would not grasp the concept because they believe the collar should be in the back pocket and bring it out to correct him, and that's fine. I don't operate that way and use it as a teaching tool, an enforcement tool, and everything else. It's a line of communication.
> 
> I get close to 50,000 views per day on my channel, and I've read here where lots of people put very strict limitations on what can be done with a collar, so I posted this for anyone that may want to know what others are doing.



I guess if you get 50K views per day you must be on to something.

I think I'll get my heeling stick out & teach my 3 yr old nephew how to read.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Chris V said:


> I may be green, maybe have never taken a dog far competitively. But I know that this is just plain dumb. Maybe you will prove us all wrong, but I am willing to bet not.
> 
> Just an opinion of a nobody that knows better.


Got over 400 videos up and they have years of my personal dogs. Yes, they all suck, and yes.......this one probably won't be much different. It's a sure bet for ya, so I'll pass.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> I guess if you get 50K views per day you must be on to something.
> 
> I think I'll get my heeling stick out & teach my 3 yr old nephew how to read.



I think you got the wrong guy. I don't use a heeling stick, and I don't earpinch either. I think all you holier than thou's out there keep forgetting that I'm the one doing the training in public......not you.


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## Mattyj (Apr 17, 2009)

I am very new to this, but how do go through a entire training session with a dog, puppy no less, and not speak a word to the dog? Are you not a team? How does he know it is you that he is supposed to please? From the video he only pays attention to you when you have his toy. The whistle sit is the only command you are giving him, does that mean in his mind that the other nicks are an act of God? What is he learning from this other than to build up his tolerance to electricity? 

Confused but thankfully through CC regards,


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

My understanding of youtube (nowadays?) is that the more views your videos get, the more $$$$$$ you make. Not sure how it works but someone else who is a trainer tried to convince me to market my puppy training videos for such. yea right....  

Whatever floats your boat.


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

Mattyj said:


> What is he learning from this other than to build up his tolerance to electricity?
> 
> Confused but thankfully through CC regards,


That's a good question, I learned from an accomplished trainer that what I was doing with my first dog was "nagging" him with the ecollar.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

windycanyon said:


> My understanding of youtube (nowadays?) is that the more views your videos get, the more $$$$$$ you make. Not sure how it works but someone else who is a trainer tried to convince me to market my puppy training videos for such. yea right....
> 
> Whatever floats your boat.



If your getting lots of views, youtube will contact you for some sponsored videos. I did over a million overall views last month and made about 72.00 which will fill my Hummer up. Sounds like your buddy has some master game plan though. Some of these posts are really quite humorous.  Who knows though, you may do 5-6 million views a month and maybe pocket 300 dollars. What's your youtube channel? _I'm really more interested in seeing the dogs cause it gives me a better idea of your training._

I got a good idea for you, try doing a new training video every single day of the year like I do, and see how fast you run out of stuff. Give that some thought.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> The thing that irritates me most is your magician method. OOOOOH! look what I can do. I'm not going to talk about how it is done or the reasoning behind it, just be sooo impressed by the showmanship.
> 
> That crap only works on pet owners regards,


Sorry couldn't let it die so fast

My career spans 4 different disiplines not including herding and schutzhund in which I only puttered .. so I don't count them because I recieved no payment or relatively little from those disiplines.

I have learned as much about training retrievers from those other disiplines than I have from training retrievers.

And I have learned infitesimally more about dealing with retriever problems from the other disiplines than I ever did dealing within the retriever realm.

So when I read a thread from a a very experienced and accomplished trainer as Fred ( Mostly known in other disiplines) I take note. because any one who has done something for a living for a long time has savy that those who haven't cannot have without putting in the time and the numbers. But it is available to those who want it here on RTF

Ok I'm done now.









I think it just goes to show that no matter how many FC's you produced or how many nationals you've won there is still a world of learning about dogs out there.
Pete


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

fredhassen said:


> I got a good idea for you, try doing a new training video every single day of the year like I do, and see how fast you run out of stuff. Give that some thought.


It's not my game Fred. I make video clips to show my pup buyers/prospecives where each pup is at, so we're talking at 6-8 wks before they go home, to a very limited audience.

I make my living based on my advanced education, so unless you are in commercial fruit production on a large scale, you'll likely never have a need for my "wares."  

I train my own dogs for my own pleasure and benefit in my off season-- and participate in multiple venues-- cross training is rather interesting to me. This is the first time it occured to me that babies were being trained w/ ecollars. I guess I just like to let them be puppies first.... is there really so much harm in lettng them be puppies first?


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

windycanyon said:


> It's not my game Fred. I make video clips to show my pup buyers/prospecives where each pup is at, so we're talking at 6-8 wks before they go home, to a very limited audience.


What's not your game? Telling someone your public youtube channel? No more questions.


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## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> *I was usually booked 48 weekends a year, with 30-50 dogs per seminar, and collar conditioning every one of them through the weekend*


I don't see any collar conditioning I see a puppy learning that if it gets off the board it gets shocked. Uf this is your idea of CC then I guess you can CC 30 - 50 dogs in 2 days. IMO it takes more than 2 days to CC a dog. This looks like 2 days of torture, tell an owner their dog is CC and collect a check for a dog that is affraid to get off the place board.



fredhassen said:


> I am *teaching him with stimulation* to pick up things, return, sit, etc in this video. I really have no idea how others train with a collar other than everyone uses the 'Lardy/Carr' method, even though I'm sure a fraction of the people's dogs look like either Lardy or Carr's dogs.
> 
> *A football team has every play designed to go for a touchdown*, but there obviously is a defense countering everything so that you have to make adjustments. Same thing here. In a perfect world, if he doesn't do it you'd just press the button and that would get him to do it, which correlates with the thought pattern of it only being used to reinforce known commands. I don't subscribe to that theory, and if I did I could never teach a deaf dog, nor could I teach a lot of behaviors like this to a puppy with clear communication.
> 
> I just put the video up because it's a very rare video *(I don't have puppies very often),* and I've had many people request it. I get close to 50,000 views per day on my channel, and I've read here where lots of people put very strict limitations on what can be done with a collar, so I posted this for anyone that may want to know what others are doing. A lot of the responses are on my 'blocked' list, and I already know what they say without reading them. *Anyway, I thought it would classify as training, and I certainly am not going to get into starting to post video after video. I just thought this one was important for the people to see.* My apologies if it wasn't.


Teach with stimulation? I don't think so again all I see in the video is a puppy that has learned the only safe place is the board.

It is also apparent that you know as much about football as you do training. Everyplay is not designed for a touchdown. Haven't yet seen a quarterback sneek on the fifty yard line run for a TD. There are different plays designed for different situations. Kind of like training there are more tools in the bag than burn the back back to a place board.

I am extremely thankful that you don't have puppies very often and I for one wish that you wouldn't show videos of burning a puppy back to a board on this forum and call it _training_.

IMHO I don't think this was important to see. I could live with out seeing anymore of your _training_ techniques. And I agree I don't think you should be allowed to use this forum as free advertisement but that is up to the mods.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Pete said:


> Sorry couldn't let it die so fast
> 
> My career spans 4 different disiplines not including herding and schutzhund in which I only puttered .. so I don't count them because I recieved no payment or relatively little from those disiplines.
> 
> ...


So Pete, Just so we are clear, you are supporting this style of dog training and do you feel people are being ignorant by pointing out what they see as possible short coming of Freds program?

Follow up Question, What advantages do you see in this program over the structured "Forced to go Program?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Your pup is confused (scratching) and begins to offer undesired responses (jumping on his crate, switching toys, etc.) because you don't give positive feedback to let him know what's correct, only negative feedback at what he perceives as random occasions. As I said earlier, you might be able to train a dog eventually (if he doesn't just quit on you) but why the hell would anyone chose to use pain to communicate what can easier be taught w/ praise, treats, etc.? I've got to ask, do you even like dogs?


__________________

I thought the same thing when he got the puppy. Most people would cuddle a puppy coming out of an airline crate, not put a lead on and drag him. I was blocked for suggesting that and still am. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPbk1-5e0sg


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Pete said:


> I think it just goes to show that no matter how many FC's you produced or how many nationals you've won there is still a world of learning about dogs out there.
> Pete


This is the smartest thing you've said.
I think this is why some people are successful dog trainers. They continue to seek out knowledge and they are very adept at filtering the BS from the good information.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Pete said:


> Sorry couldn't let it die so fast
> 
> My career spans 4 different disiplines not including herding and schutzhund in which I only puttered .. so I don't count them because I recieved no payment or relatively little from those disiplines.
> 
> ...


Bernie Madoff made a pretty good living investing other people's money for years. He didn't tell how he did it either.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> So Pete, Just so we are clear, you are supporting this style of dog training and do you feel people are being ignorant by pointing out what they see as possible short coming of Freds program?
> 
> Follow up Question, What advantages do you see in this program over the structured "Forced to go Program?


So Greg why wouldn't any one support this style of dog training. The only advantage to utilizing what Fred does in the retriever realm is that it prepares the young dog better for whats to come. Attitude is everything to me and I want a great attitude weather I'm correcting forcing or praising. I garrenty you can train a master level dog using freds method.

I have doubts it can be the only method used for training trial dogs,,,those methods have been proven by the best of the best.
However most people here do hunting,and HT dogs.
Again it doesn't replace the basic yard program but it certainly enhances it.

Yes Greg I think people here are being ignorant ,,because they make derogatory comments about something they have absolutely no clue about. They don't understand what they are reading or seeing in the video and make really unintellegent comments. 


Retrievers are still dogs and learn the same way as other breeds,, so weather its pet stuff or what ever one method can cross another disipline and often it is a valuable addition to what someone is doing with their dog.

New things are seldom accepted within a disipline unless someone with athority says it. Such as Lardy ,Moser, Eckett,,,name that Icon Nolan I can garrenty you if one of them came on and said something outrageous as Fred there would be lots of OOHWING and Aweing.

As retriever enthusiest and students of the "dog" one would think there would be more thinking and honest questions rather than critisism.

I'm a lover and a fighter so its all good for me

Pete

.


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Pete said:


> As retriever enthusiest and students of the "dog" one would think there would be more thinking and honest questions rather than critisism.


 

I think there have been lots of unanswered questions. If there was a thorough explanation of what was being done and why, I think then people could be more open to Fred's training approach. Unfortunately, what I have seen goes against what most folks here understand about retriever behavior.

Teach using stimulation? Ok, but tell me how, when, and why and don't just expect people to accept it. It is 100% contrary to the Carr method, and without a complete understanding of how this should work, people are predictably skeptical.

Use an e-collar on a very young pup? Again, how, when, why. There are no details as to the overall approach and the expected behavior changes.

I don't know if approach is by design, where you need to BUY the details of what, when, where, or how. Or is he flying by the seat of his pants as in his football analogy. We simply don't know. I think Fred may have more accaptance and curiosity of his program if he were to establish some of the principles of his program first. Without that, he comes across as a snake oil salesman.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> I I think all you holier than thou's out there keep forgetting that I'm the one doing the training in public......not you.


Really? I train in public every time I train..... there are always people there that watch.... some are the general public, and other are also retriever enthusiasts. 

I don't hesitate to train in public, and I don't drag no puppies! I don't burn no puppies with collars! And, I've got some very well trained dogs.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Furball said:


> I'm still not sure how Fred is allowed to post multiple videos on RTF for a long stretch of time promoting his training business, yet I get a nastygram from mods when placing one post to the "for sale" forum about my dog-related business website. I don't begrudge the mods, I understood what they said to me and haven't done it sense. Just sayin....


RTF is like the Wizard of Oz. You don't know all that's transpiring behind the curtain.

I wish you'd have brought this to me privately rather than the public comment. I assure you that Fred and I have corresponded privately a lot.

Chris


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Bernie Madoff made a pretty good living investing other people's money for years. He didn't tell how he did it either.


Terry

It has been hashed over and over again how its done. Pack leader got rammed up the arse when he tried to explain it.

I then wrote an extensive post using examples of how these same methods occurs naturally in a dogs life. And I got 1 or 2 honest responses.

people don't want to know they just want to argue and to them it makes them seem smart ,,but to me it reveals their ignorance and it reveals an ego unable to deal with understanding something new,, from someone they know nothing about.
It doesn't really matter just do what you do,,,people can do what they want ,,who cares,,this site is supposed to be an exchange of idea's,, well Ive heard the same idea's over and over here for years and I must say it gets kind of boring.



Pete


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> I garrenty you can train a master level dog using freds method.
> 
> Pete


Names ? Venue ?



.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Well, one hundred posts I figured I need to watch the vids. I didn’t at first because I just assumed it would be a bunch of us pounding the crap out of Fred, like always. Having already seen a couple train wrecks I did not think I needed to slow down for this one. Yet, I was told long ago to read EVERYTHING you can get your hands on and take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. That goes for training videos as well.
So,
That said. Hi Fred, the pup is looking good.
I very much liked the way you move in a circle to get the pup to come to you to get back on the place board. I also teach place, but not at such a young age. It is a great hunting tool, place. I have, in my past used a combination of overs and backs and lifting up and placing back on the board. I very much like your circular motion approach and will take that away from that vid and store it in the mental archives. Thank You. 

As for the E-collar “stimulation” without the sound “beep” in the soundtrack of the vid, like in the Mike Lardy collar conditioning vid we the viewer had no way of knowing when you are applying collar pressure. So I am unable to comment on that at all. I am of the approach to let pups be pups for a bit but any time interacting with it’s human is usually a good thing for the pup.

And for the masses who just think Fred is all about marketing, again I cannot comment. It may be or it could just be like any of us proud puppy owners posting vids of our pups. You guys should see my 9 week old Chessie carry a toilet plunger with a 3 foot handle. What if I hosted that with a jar of maple syrup in the background? Same thing right?


.


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> As for the E-collar “stimulation” without the sound “beep” in the soundtrack of the vid, like in the Mike Lardy collar conditioning vid we the viewer had no way of knowing when you are applying collar pressure. So I am unable to comment on that at all. I am of the approach to let pups be pups for a bit but any time interacting with it’s human is usually a good thing for the pup.


 
Except the title of the thread and video is all about collar conditioning, yet the videos and comments by Fred in this thread give little to no insight as to how that collar conditioning is taking place. That said, I am really curious as to the results Fred may or may not achieve. I think the problem here may be that the approach taken is actually turning people off instead of making them want to know more.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

This thread is all about finding a way for someone with no other talent to make a living bilking the tourists.

Fred is pretty entertaining but he could do a lot better with a better product:

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=38116

Why fry puppies? Just a little Kaboom will make 'em sparkle!!!

Madison Avenue regards

Bubba


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> You guys should see my 9 week old Chessie carry a toilet plunger with a 3 foot handle.
> .


Actually, I'd love to see that! With or without the syrup in the background....


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Well, one hundred posts I figured I need to watch the vids. I didn’t at first because I just assumed it would be a bunch of us pounding the crap out of Fred, like always. Having already seen a couple train wrecks I did not think I needed to slow down for this one. Yet, I was told long ago to read EVERYTHING you can get your hands on and take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. That goes for training videos as well.
> So,
> That said. Hi Fred, the pup is looking good.
> I very much liked the way you move in a circle to get the pup to come to you to get back on the place board. I also teach place, but not at such a young age. It is a great hunting tool, place. I have, in my past used a combination of overs and backs and lifting up and placing back on the board. I very much like your circular motion approach and will take that away from that vid and store it in the mental archives. Thank You.
> ...


Some pretty open-minded comments. Especially coming from an RTF sponsor!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Names ? Venue ?


Goosebusters Captain Quack Barrows 3 derbies 1 jam
Goosebusters dot Biz 3 derbies 1 3rd
Goosebusters Kold Kockin Kate 3 derbies 1 2nd

while that isn't much compared to many here,,,it is a start. If I wanted to focus on masters they would be ready to do so by now. They are running Q blinds well

They were all started similar to what fred does,,,not quite,,,but similair Also I was utilizing this way before I ever heard of Fred hanssen

Its a humble start and who knows,,,,, thats all they may ever accomplish in the field trial game but weather I use Freds methods or not will not be the deturmining facter.
Hard work and sound principles will be.

Pete


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

Bubba said:


> This thread is all about finding a way for someone with no other talent to make a living bilking the tourists.
> 
> Fred is pretty entertaining but he could do a lot better with a better product:
> 
> ...


That funny [email protected] right there!


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

WTF are you trying to teach the pup? That training is no fun?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> WTF are you trying to teach the pup? That training is no fun?



Sorry couldn't help myself

p


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Red retrievers said:


> I don't see any collar conditioning I see a puppy learning that if it gets off the board it gets shocked. Uf this is your idea of CC then I guess you can CC 30 - 50 dogs in 2 days. IMO it takes more than 2 days to CC a dog. This looks like 2 days of torture, tell an owner their dog is CC and collect a check for a dog that is affraid to get off the place board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm. You guys are fun. Let's see now, if 'ONLY SAFE PLACE IS THE BOARD' why does the dog leave the board for the toy or whatever over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again and not delay about it? No where in that video does the dog delay to leave the board, and the 2nd part of that video is pretty long. Perhaps you were watching a different video???

As far as football goes, I know a bit about it and will stand by my thoughts.
I Quarterbacked an undefeated high school team, not that it makes me an expert or anything.......but I have some background. 

That the Quarterback sneak that is run on the 50 yard line is designed in the playbook so they leave the guys unblocked to tackle him right there?
Go look at the playbook. This guy blocks this guy this way, this guy takes the linebacker out etc. I'm sure you've seen the old Vince Lombardi scene where he is diagramming the Packer sweep on a blackboard, they've shown it a zillion times "The guard pulls here, this guy goes here and it creates an 'alley' right here", and it shows some big friggin alley. It's designed to go for a touchdown. A pass isn't designed to be intercepted either, neither is a punt designed to be blocked, neither is a quarterback play designed to be sacked..........in case you were wondering. It all works great on paper.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

You all assume you know what Fred is doing. Burn, burn, burn, that is all I hear.

Have you ever held a SMS collar to know what your talking about?

You see an e-collar and think burn because it's all you know. In reality its more like a tickle. If I put the collar on your hand you probably couldn't even comprehend it.

If Fred followed the Carr or Lardy ecollar method the dog would be screaming. 

Carr and lardy use it for corrections not teaching. You could call it nagging if it makes you feel better. That just proves to those that know that you know nothing..


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> You all assume you know what Fred is doing. Burn, burn, burn, that is all I hear.
> 
> Have you ever held a SMS collar to know what your talking about?
> 
> ...


No, it's not always a tickle. If I was limited to a tickle I would lose a lot of versatility. It's adjustable.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Fred I held the sms collar at the seminar and compared it to my sport dog 1800 on level 4. It was not the same, and much lower than I predicted. 

I'm sure it goes higher but the collar in general feels smoother.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

PackLeader said:


> You all assume you know what Fred is doing. Burn, burn, burn, that is all I hear.
> 
> Have you ever held a SMS collar to know what your talking about?
> 
> ...



You have no business even speaking the names of Carr or Lardy based on the above statements. We are talking about two of the most accomplished retriever trainers ever published.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

scott spalding said:


> You have no business even speaking the names of Carr or Lardy based on the above statements. We are talking about two of the most accomplished retriever trainers ever published.



I think Jamie was referring to remote collar training knowledge, and not on trialing retriever accomplishments. I don't think Jamie was trying to compare my retriever training results with Lardy's, and I don't believe Carr has ever even been to the line, so that wouldn't make 70% of this board better than Carr because they have more titles than him. The Carr argument doesn't hold water in the case of being at the line, no matter how many people he's trained. You obviously don't have to be at the line to have a successful system. Carr is proof of that. That argument is over, done, finished.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

It is called respect. Carr may have never stood at the line but inspired many individuals to think about what could be done with competitive retrievers.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

well, that's 32 minutes of my life i won't get back....

i find it interesting that to Fred, "sit means sit", but to Charger, sit meant "go".

good luck Fred, maybe someday you'll have that MH dog.-Paul


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Pete said:


> No one ever said it was better,,,just a different way of doing something. But if your going to run big dog stuff and plan on winning then you'll have to probably use the big names approach.
> 
> *But if its a MH your after then this can be a way to go for a lot of people.*
> Its not that its better it just has different uses andthe understanding of it will help you grow as a trainer. Nothing more and nothing less
> ...


I'm sorry Pete, but I don't necessarily agree with that statement. Because it hasn't been done, not by Fred or Jamie. I have not seen anyone else on the board or in the very small retriever community I run in-using this approach who has gotten a MH as a owner/handler/trainer. I do believe in looking at different training methods and doing my research to see if that method fits my dog and myself. However, a big selling point for me is this: has the guy/gal selling me the training method walked the walk? Since I'm only interested in the retriever games with my dogs, I want to learn from someone who is sucessful or whose students are sucessful in the retriever games. No disrespect to Mr. Hansen.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

paul young said:


> well, that's 32 minutes of my life i won't get back....
> 
> *i find it interesting that to Fred, "sit means sit", but to Charger, sit meant "go".*
> 
> good luck Fred, maybe someday you'll have that MH dog.-Paul


 That one caught me off-guard and made me smile. 

May young charger rest in peace. 

Chris


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Pals said:


> I'm sorry Pete, but I don't necessarily agree with that statement. Because it hasn't been done, not by Fred or Jamie. I have not seen anyone else on the board or in the very small retriever community I run in-using this approach who has gotten a MH as a owner/handler/trainer. I do believe in looking at different training methods and doing my research to see if that method fits my dog and myself. However, a big selling point for me is this: has the guy/gal selling me the training method walked the walk? Since I'm only interested in the retriever games with my dogs, I want to learn from someone who is sucessful or whose students are sucessful in the retriever games. No disrespect to Mr. Hansen.


Great! Looking forward to posting the videos of the tests soon! Hopefully you post your vids as well. I'm sure you have a lot more tests behind you than I do, and much, much more experience.......but it will be fun all the same. Like you, I like to see the work of those contributing as well, and I think that it is very valuable to the community here because they get to see the various setups in video and helps give them more to train for.

People are very nice at the tests, and it hasn't been a problem at all to hand a camera off to someone. You can really learn a lot by watching yourself on video at a trial.


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## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> Hmmm. You guys are fun. Let's see now, if 'ONLY SAFE PLACE IS THE BOARD' why does the dog leave the board for the toy or whatever over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again and not delay about it? No where in that video does the dog delay to leave the board, and the 2nd part of that video is pretty long. Perhaps you were watching a different video???
> 
> As far as football goes, I know a bit about it and will stand by my thoughts.
> I Quarterbacked an undefeated high school team, not that it makes me an expert or anything.......but I have some background.
> ...


Fred you are quite the word monger. I have never heard anyone so eloquently detail how a qb sneak at the 50 is actually designed to go for a td, I have never seen it happen but I can rest assured as you singlehandedly took a team to an undefeated season you probably have done it. If it has ever happened in a real game please inform as to when, where and who I’d love to see the video. As I mistakenly understand it plays are designed for different situations, need 5 yds, pass short knowing you will get hit immediately after the catch. Many more specific situations but I’m sure now they are all for a TD.

Two questions:
1. If you burn to teach what do you do to correct?
2.  Also how many deaf dogs have you _taught_? I do not have the vast experience that you do but the only deaf dogs I have seen are older or lost hearing due to other circumstances and were trained prior to the loss of their hearing.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

fredhassen said:


> Great! Looking forward to posting the videos of the tests soon! Hopefully you post your vids as well. I'm sure you have a lot more tests behind you than I do, and much, much more experience.......but it will be fun all the same. Like you, I like to see the work of those contributing as well, and I think that it is very valuable to the community here because they get to see the various setups in video and helps give them more to train for.
> 
> People are very nice at the tests, and it hasn't been a problem at all to hand a camera off to someone. You can really learn a lot by watching yourself on video at a trial.


 
I agree that you do learn a lot by taping your work with your dogs. I have learned a lot watching video of myself(boy that could go south quickly) and I've learned a tremendous amount by standing behind handlers as their judge the last two years.

Since you asked about videos, this is a fairly recent one. (bumping back up for Bon and Paul-best 3 minutes you will have today boys!!!:razz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5CYPVqSYcQ

Not your traditional retriever, however with the Lardy/Carr method she has turned into a very nice dove and pheasant dog. In the video I am doing simple junior marks, no collar. All I have is a whistle, which I did not blow, I tend to use that only if they are dinking around on the return or I'm running a blind-oh and for walk ups. I did not help her, nor did the gunner, when she hung up in the change in cover. She had to work that out on her own, she learned that through attrition in training. Note the happy attitude, strong desire and ability to problem solve. Also she did not cheat, in either the water or the cover- but took a straight line-she also learned this with Mr. Lardy's assistance(best 200 bucks I've spent)-someday I hope to be able to personally thank him.

So Mr. Lardy's method can be used on different breeds with success, as this video demonstrates. She is CC, FTP and will soon be learning pattern blinds, because she can and I'm bored. 

gotta go set the steaks on fire,


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## George C. Tull (Aug 25, 2006)

Nancy, that vid put a smile on my face. Thanks! ;-)


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Red retrievers said:


> Fred you are quite the word monger. I have never heard anyone so eloquently detail how a qb sneak at the 50 is actually designed to go for a td, I have never seen it happen but I can rest assured as you singlehandedly took a team to an undefeated season you probably have done it. If it has ever happened in a real game please inform as to when, where and who I’d love to see the video. As I mistakenly understand it plays are designed for different situations, need 5 yds, pass short knowing you will get hit immediately after the catch. Many more specific situations but I’m sure now they are all for a TD.
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. If you burn to teach what do you do to correct?
> 2.  Also how many deaf dogs have you _taught_? I do not have the vast experience that you do but the only deaf dogs I have seen are older or lost hearing due to other circumstances and were trained prior to the loss of their hearing.


Trust me, all the guys that plug up the hole on the QB sneak are designed on the play to be blocked. At the NFL level, the lineman are giving audibles also at the line to block the defense as it's changing. How do you think it's designed, that they design it to let the guy get through to tackle him? Every basketball play is designed to make a basket as well. Pick and rolls work perfectly on the blackboard. 

As far as 'burn' goes. I've been in lots of dog training venues doing seminars, and obviously lots of people use collars besides you guys. The retriever world holds the proud distinction of the only group that I am aware of that refers to it as a 'burn'. We are constantly fighting public perception, and a collar can't actually even 'burn' a dog. It doesn't generate heat. I know you all are proud of having that distinction all to yourself, so I won't do anything to rattle your pride. It's certainly not a 'common' term, and I've been around.

You can obviously do both teach and correct with a leash, and a choke chain, and each individual uses their perception of what is needed. When you hand the dog to your wife to take him for a walk, you never say "Honey, use a 57% leash correction please when you walk him". What makes you think I can't do the same? 

Probably taught about 100 deaf dogs over the years, as there are quite a few in the pet dog community because there are lots more dogs. That's also the reason why there are a lot more good working dogs and every other kind because you are dealing with the masses. On the other hand, I know the 'working dog clubs' of all kinds try to portray like they have all the good dogs, but in reality, if you go to a working dog club that has 20 dogs, there are a handful of good ones, with a few exceptions. Whenever there are masses of anything, you are going to find more in it. You take all the smart people at Harvard, and I'll take the rest of the United States.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Red retrievers said:


> As I mistakenly understand it plays are designed for different situations, need 5 yds, pass short knowing you will get hit immediately after the catch. Many more specific situations but I’m sure now they are all for a TD.
> 
> .


In a perfect world, here is how this play was designed. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I9B6-QCCX4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxtsmE-G0w&feature=channel Not a sneak, but the line carries through, and the downfield blocking.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> Probably taught about 100 deaf dogs over the years, as there are quite a few in the pet dog community because there are lots more dogs. That's also the reason why there are a lot more good working dogs and every other kind because you are dealing with the masses. * On the other hand, I know the 'working dog clubs' of all kinds try to portray like they have all the good dogs, but in reality, if you go to a working dog club that has 20 dogs, there are a handful of good ones, with a few exceptions.* Whenever there are masses of anything, you are going to find more in it. You take all the smart people at Harvard, and I'll take the rest of the United States.


So it would seem to me that you would naturally gravitate to where the big bucks are instead of hanging around here annoying all the poor dummass retreiver trainers. Other than an occaisional reach around from Smackleader (another no results having wanna be) I don't see a lot of support for your infomercials. Why waste you time among the willfully ignorant? Spread your light and magic to the masses.

Would like to have a Hummer at a hunt test though regards

Bubba


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## Mattyj (Apr 17, 2009)

Hi Fred, remember me? From a few pages back? I am the beginner that had a few questions about what you were doing but I did not get any answers. Anyway, I have a few more questions for you. If that is ok? Maybe everyone is confused about what you are doing by showing these videos. Are you just sharing the progress you are making with your new pup? (really cute and very smart by the looks of it) Or are you trying to sell something? I know you have this whole Sit Means Sit thing but since you only have about as much experience training hunt test dogs as I have, it does not make sense that you would be trying to sell me something. So I am just going to assume that you are just showing off your new puppy to the RTF family here. 

Hi Fred, cute puppy! Looks really smart! Who's he out of? Good luck with new method you are working on. Let us know how it works out for you.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Mattyj said:


> Hi Fred, remember me? From a few pages back? I am the beginner that had a few questions about what you were doing but I did not get any answers. Anyway, I have a few more questions for you. If that is ok? Maybe everyone is confused about what you are doing by showing these videos. Are you just sharing the progress you are making with your new pup? (really cute and very smart by the looks of it) Or are you trying to sell something? I know you have this whole Sit Means Sit thing but since you only have about as much experience training hunt test dogs as I have, it does not make sense that you would be trying to sell me something. So I am just going to assume that you are just showing off your new puppy to the RTF family here.
> 
> Hi Fred, cute puppy! Looks really smart! Who's he out of? Good luck with new method you are working on. Let us know how it works out for you.


Hi Matt! You lost me a bit. Could you please quote anywhere on this forum where I mention or offer anything for sale so that I have a better reference of what you are referring to??

Not sure what you mean by 'new' collar training system. We train more people to use remote collars than anyone in the world by far and have been around since 1998. My posts are usually in reference to remote training and a dogs behavior.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Pals said:


> I agree that you do learn a lot by taping your work with your dogs. I have learned a lot watching video of myself(boy that could go south quickly) and I've learned a tremendous amount by standing behind handlers as their judge the last two years.
> 
> Since you asked about videos, this is a fairly recent one. (bumping back up for Bon and Paul-best 3 minutes you will have today boys!!!:razz
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for the video! I like the character in that dog. Delays a little at the point of the water for all the desire, not a big thing but being extremely involved in Dock Dogs at a World level, I notice little things like that. As much character and desire as that little dog has, it should be flying into the water, but I'm sure you probably haven't worked on that yet and are admittedly still in training. Dog has excellent character, and great desire. Thanks for sharing! If you go to my daily video on my youtube channel, it has a very short piece on my little puppy entering water, and it's from practically a standstill. I'll make some videos applicable for this site on him entering water from every angle, and even from heights very shortly. I have lots of video on my channel of my dogs at the World Championships in Dock Dogs and their water entries. They do it like that everywhere. I only critique with showing comparison, or it's worthless. I also love critique with comparison on mine as well. I can handle it, and always give credit where credit is due.


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> As much character and desire as that little dog has, it should be flying into the water, but I'm sure you probably haven't worked on that yet and are admittedly still in training.


 
Can you please explain why?


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)




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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

dixidawg said:


> Can you please explain why?


I shoot for the moon in all of my training. I like my dogs doing everything with maximum effort. I am giving my opinion. That is a super nice little dog, and I'd like to see the dog giving it's all at entry point. 

I'd personally work on that detail if it was my dog, cause I think the entire picture is very important in the field of dog training. Hey, I don't know the picture, maybe the dog just got in water a few days ago, and it's understandable. 

My dog 'Charger' bounced on his way to the line, and people tried to tell me that he'd never pass cause he wouldn't be able to see anything yada, yada.
I was not taking that away, and take great pride in having a very spirited dog. I'd rather come in second place with a super spirited dog, then come in first with a flat one. That's just me. I train every little detail. I'd work on that, but that's just me. 

The rest of the picture was awesome. My opinion......nothing more, nothing less. No hard feelings and nothing personal.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I guess I'll just have to accept Weezie's less than perfect water entry, as she runs 30 yards straight down a hill and doesn't cheat the dam on her first long land, water mark. That's my thinkin little girl.


I am "admittedly" still training-I wasn't aware that we ever stop training. Thanks for the advice and good luck with your puppy.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Dang Nancy, that anger management thing must be really working for you

PS: thanks so much for reposting that video. I liked it just as much again. Go Weezie, feel better soon.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I'm sorry Pete, but I don't necessarily agree with that statement. Because it hasn't been done, not by Fred or Jamie. I have not seen anyone else on the board or in the very small retriever community I run in-using this approach who has gotten a MH as a owner/handler/trainer. I do believe in looking at different training methods and doing my research to see if that method fits my dog and myself. However, a big selling point for me is this: has the guy/gal selling me the training method walked the walk? Since I'm only interested in the retriever games with my dogs, I want to learn from someone who is sucessful or whose students are sucessful in the retriever games. No disrespect to Mr. Hansen.
> __________________


Nancy you and everyone can disagree me me. I like that it makes this more fun

Do you think Freds method could produce a derby dog with a few points. I think it tougher to finish a derby than a Master because only 4 people can place. I don't want to seem snotty but a master is not really that difficult to obtain.

The first retriever I ever trained became a master hunter and I was a knucklehead who didn't know my arse from a hole in the ground. And I didn't train every day. If I would have known what Fred does I could have done it in half the time

also I do think its best to learn from a lardy ,Gramm,name that program. No one ever said it wasn't. I'm sure lardy has had a dog break on him before,,does that make him a knuckle head. I don't get how people can manufacture all this crazy stuff in their head from going to one simple statement to the sky is falling and using the most irrational arguement to back up their goofy statements.

Frd shows a simple innocent video and people think he is trying to take over the retriever community. I'm crackin up here.LOL Is this fun to read or what. One thing for sure Fred makes this place a pretty exciting place to visit.

Sorry we'll have to agree to disagree.

Pete


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Just watched it for the first time. Ok I see several things I wouldn't like. It appears you are encouraging bad mouth habits,letting him chew on a retreiving object and playing a little tug of war. Also you said he was sitting nice and straight when in fact he has a sloppy sit,sitting on one hip alot. He also dropped the bone and you say"I'm not gonna pick it up off the ground" and then you pick it up off the ground for him. I just don't get the whole placeboard thing. I have yet to have to send a dog to one at a HT and they don't have them in the swamps or lakes I hunt. I do use a ruff stand and usually just takes a few minutes and my dogs jump right on up and sit. Just one guys point of view.


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## Mattyj (Apr 17, 2009)

fredhassen said:


> Could you please quote anywhere on this forum where I mention or offer anything for sale so that I have a better reference of what you are referring to??
> 
> Not sure what you mean by 'new' collar training system. We train more people to use remote collars than anyone in the world by far and have been around since 1998. My posts are usually in reference to remote training and a dogs behavior.


Uhh.. That's why I asked what are you trying to do here. If your not selling anything and your not showing us your 'new' training system, then what is your purpose?


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Mattyj said:


> Uhh.. That's why I asked what are you trying to do here. If your not selling anything and your not showing us your 'new' training system, then what is your purpose?


Because it's the sport that I am totally involved in now. Unfortunately, I had a young dog that just passed that I was doing hunt tests with regularly, and now I'm starting over. If hunt tests and retriever training is my complete passion now, would you expect me to be on an agility board or something?

Did you think all the other videos that I had on my other dog that just passed that showed my retriever training were done cause I was passionate about sheep herding or something? 

People that are passionate about iphones could very possibly be on discussion boards about them. That doesn't mean everyone on there is working at an At&t store selling them.


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## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

Mattyj said:


> Uhh.. That's why I asked what are you trying to do here. If your not selling anything and your not showing us your 'new' training system, then what is your purpose?


Not speaking for Fred but what I have seen in all of his posts is a little child looking for attention, even negative attention. And we all fall in line and give it to him. He will go away again and resurface in a couple of months when he is compelled to show off something that no one else is capable of, not tell how it is done or how it relates to retriever training stir things up get his much needed attention then go away again for awhile. As for us on RTF we must get something out of this also, slow day, bored I don't know but we rise to the occassion and feed his addiction for attention. I think Fred will make #3 on my blocked list as I waste time that I will never get back.:-x


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Pete, did you purchase a "Sit Means Sit "franchise?


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## MoJo (Mar 24, 2004)

Pals said:


> I agree that you do learn a lot by taping your work with your dogs. I have learned a lot watching video of myself(boy that could go south quickly) and I've learned a tremendous amount by standing behind handlers as their judge the last two years.
> 
> Since you asked about videos, this is a fairly recent one. (bumping back up for Bon and Paul-best 3 minutes you will have today boys!!!:razz
> 
> ...


I'll say! That little girl has *Atittude*. Shouldn't that be what "retriever" training should be about? And BTW, there was nothing wrong with that water entry. That is a smart, well trained little dog. Nice job and thank you for posting.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Mattyj said:


> Uhh.. That's why I asked what are you trying to do here. If your not selling anything and your not showing us your 'new' training system, then what is your purpose?


Hummmm….lets see he drivers a big old hummer all decked out with sms on it to HT, videos everything he does, post said video on sites involving a type of dog training that he knows NOTHING about... 1) I WOULD SAY EGOMANIAC, 2) trying to sell something, remember the old any publicity is good publicity. If he gets 10 fools to go check out his website because of a 4 page long thread on here he has done well and never actually had to “sell” anything. 
Gotta give it to him, he can come on here with ZERO credibility in the retriever world and act like he knows something more than the proven methods even though he has DONE nothing to prove that he can train a dog to pick up kibble much less birds. He is actually sucking some fools like his buddy and franchise owner PL and now pete into his charade.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> And BTW, there was nothing wrong with that water entry. That is a smart, well trained little dog.


You bet and no cheating the water which was obviously missed. Although we all like the big entry for pictures, a big entry isn't always desired in an actual piece of water for hunting-it's smart-this isn't diving in a big pool.
I think Red Retriever was right. This is all about attention. That's why Fred keeps coming back to get beat up. No audience to speak of in HT and training, not like in dock diving & seminars, and no accolades, no applause, and no criticism just banter and sarcasm going on here. I know I'm on ignore so I assume anyone that criticizes is also so it goes to deaf ears..


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pete, did you purchase a "Sit Means Sit "franchise?




No ,,but I sure would like to attend a Fred Hanssen seminar.

Greg
Personally I think I'm on most peoples ignore list because they will ask me something ,,which I have just posted on giving the answere to the question their asking .

I've use portions of this method for years,,,no one taught it to me,,,, I was in a pickle with a pretty nasty dog,,,, OK very nasty,,,and our training came to a stand still so I started experimenting and saw what I was doing achieved the link to my next step. From that day foward I keep it handy and start new dogs with some of those techniques. And it has benefits or I would,t touch it with a ten foot pole

However Fred uses it way more than I do and is way more versitle than I am at it.

I have never been a stuck in the box trainer. I'm a Lazy SOB so I only use what works fast, is efficient,,and has lasting effect

I do put dogs through a normal yard program only they are better prepared to deal with up coming pressure ,,,I think anyway.

Pete


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

2tall said:


> Dang Nancy, that anger management thing must be really working for you
> 
> PS: thanks so much for reposting that video. I liked it just as much again. Go Weezie, feel better soon.


It was sunday, I try extra hard on Sunday.  Plus I was waiting for Greg or Corey to chime in. It's obvious to me from the comments on my video that someone has never run a long land water mark and seen what happens in about 80% of dogs, the first few times you run that concept with a young dog. Add into the "picture" an easy cheat to shorten the swim....well most get the picture. BTW there is nothing wrong with her water entry, that's how she always jumps in the water-just her. My sticking the collar on her and zapping her on low isn't going to change that, I would be better off flinging her in(you know like I do with the fluffs) My point was that the method I use to train my goldens, works for the non traditional retrievers as well. And really who cares what Weezie can do-she is just cute and makes you smile-it's about the retrievers and the games we play here on RTF. The only reason I even talk about Weezie is because I think it's cool a little dog wants to retrieve birds, bumpers and actually hunts.........


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Nancy
Weezie rocks. What a dog. Fred only shows even more how little he knows with his water entry comment. I didn't watch the video until now because I just can't take freds threads.
I once had a cat that thought she was a retriever. She would sit, stay, fetch, and sort of hold (was not about to FF a cat). She was not a fan of water work and not sure how she would have done with real birds but a canvas puppy bumper....


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Wow now I'm sms franchise owner. The bs and ignorence gets thicker everyday in here.


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> The bs and ignorence gets thicker everyday in here.


Do you mean ignorance?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Handler Error said:


> Do you mean ignorance?


No it was a braille typo by the blind dog.


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

Dont you think if EVERYBODY blocked all three of them we wouldn't have to read this BS anymore. I know I will NEVER open another one from anyone of them. Sick of the B S Regards


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## MoJo (Mar 24, 2004)

Pals said:


> And really who cares what Weezie can do-she is just cute and makes you smile-it's about the retrievers and the games we play here on RTF. The only reason I even talk about Weezie is because I think it's cool a little dog wants to retrieve birds, bumpers and actually hunts.........


Bingo!! And I bet that video brightened the day of those who saw it! I know I loved it and appreciate what you have done with her, as do, I am sure, many others. 

Another BTW, I would rather see a dog honest in the water than a dog cheating but with a huge water entry upon finally getting in. Well done Nancy! You have much to be proud of.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Dont you think if EVERYBODY blocked all three of them we wouldn't have to read this BS anymore. I know I will NEVER open another one from anyone of them. Sick of the B S Regards




Yea you tellum

We have been so rude haven't we

Fred you bring them out of the woodwork

Pete


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

labman63 said:


> Just watched it for the first time. Ok I see several things I wouldn't like. It appears you are encouraging bad mouth habits,letting him chew on a retreiving object and playing a little tug of war. Also you said he was sitting nice and straight when in fact he has a sloppy sit,sitting on one hip alot. He also dropped the bone and you say"I'm not gonna pick it up off the ground" and then you pick it up off the ground for him. I just don't get the whole placeboard thing. I have yet to have to send a dog to one at a HT and they don't have them in the swamps or lakes I hunt. I do use a ruff stand and usually just takes a few minutes and my dogs jump right on up and sit. Just one guys point of view.


Fred would you like to respond to my post? #135, Interested to see your thoughts on this.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Fred, I am flumoxed! I have had my share of bloody noses for thinking differently around here. So, I have no problem with different approaches.

But, when I see your videos I honestly don't get it. I understand learning theory, but the closest thing I can relate to what you are doing is some kind of 'shaping' that relies on aversion to discourage the wrong behavior instead of using positive reinforcement to encourage the correct the behavior. I suppose both can work but...

I think the end result of it all should be a dog that is able to use it's natural instincts to solve problems when the handler can't do so. In other words, if a cripple falls 20 yards deep in cattails, and the best I can do is get the dog to the edge of the cattails, I want a dog that has the intiative and natural ability to get in there and hunt'em up.

I am concerned that your methods may create something called 'learned helplessness'... a dog that has no initiative because of so many corrections ('taps', as you call them), and does nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. A complete inability to think for itself.

Can you explain, in learning theory terms, or in terms of operant conditioning, exactly what you are doing, and why?

Snick


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Pete,

"never try and teach a pig to sing"

I learned that lesson last year in the packleader wins post. 

I must go now before I get accused of bumping Fred's thread again.

Regards,


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEPete,

"never try and teach a pig to sing"

I learned that lesson last year in the packleader wins post. 

I must go now before I get accused of bumping Fred's thread again.

][/QUOTE]

But its so much fun
Thanks for bumping the tread.:razz:

I think we should endeavor to hit 50 pages don't you.

I think people are really enjoying themselves. 

Pete


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

Can you say BROMANCE ! Have fun with each other regards !


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Snicklefritz said:


> Fred, I am flumoxed! I have had my share of bloody noses for thinking differently around here. So, I have no problem with different approaches.
> 
> But, when I see your videos I honestly don't get it. I understand learning theory, but the closest thing I can relate to what you are doing is some kind of 'shaping' that relies on aversion to discourage the wrong behavior instead of using positive reinforcement to encourage the correct the behavior. I suppose both can work but...
> 
> ...


What say ye Fred?


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> What say ye Fred?


part 3 is up.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Can you say BROMANCE ! Have fun with each other regards !


 

Sorry man I'm married

Hey weren't you supposed to put me on your ignore list.
I know, I know ,,your falling in love

night night sweetheart


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

fredhassen said:


> part 3 is up.


Once again, what is your response to the issues that Snicklefritz raised?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

fredhassen said:


> part 3 is up.



*Great*


After wasting and hour of my life reading part two I can only imagin how informative part three will be..


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> *Great*
> 
> 
> After wasting and hour of my life reading part two I can only imagin how informative part three will be..



You kind of remind me of a friend of mine. We were talking about the movie 'Avatar' the other day. I didn't like it at all. I don't like that kind of stuff. It's cool for about 5 minutes, but obviously millions of people liked it a lot, so what do I know. I asked him cautiously, cause I thought he'd think I was a dork for not liking it.......which I am. Anyway, he hated it!! 2 of us on the planet, imagine that! 

I could just imagine if 'Avatar ll' came out tommorrow. Now, the thought of me asking him "Hey, are you going to see Avatar ll ? Wouldn't even cross my mind. Too take it a step further, the thought of me seeing 'Avatar ll', or 'Avatar lll', or 'Avatar XX' would never, ever cross my mind......even if it was the only movie playing on the planet. Well, I've definetly seen worse, but I wouldn't go see it again, nor would I see any of the worse ones, so let me clarify that as well.

Sooooooooo, I'm perplexed why you, and all the others would see Fred ll, or Fred lll, or Fred xx......but you will. Cause I'm your favorite. 

Now I've got to go my good friend, cause I'm off to see Penn and Teller with my wife. Never seen them before. I do promise you one thing though......
If they suck, I ain't going back tommorrow, and the day after, and the day after that. Then again, that's just me.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

fredhassen said:


> You kind of remind me of a friend of mine. We were talking about the movie 'Avatar' the other day. I didn't like it at all. I don't like that kind of stuff. It's cool for about 5 minutes, but obviously millions of people liked it a lot, so what do I know. I asked him cautiously, cause I thought he'd think I was a dork for not liking it.......which I am. Anyway, he hated it!! 2 of us on the planet, imagine that!
> 
> I could just imagine if 'Avatar ll' came out tommorrow. Now, the thought of me asking him "Hey, are you going to see Avatar ll ? Wouldn't even cross my mind. Too take it a step further, the thought of me seeing 'Avatar ll', or 'Avatar lll', or 'Avatar XX' would never, ever cross my mind......even if it was the only movie playing on the planet. Well, I've definetly seen worse, but I wouldn't go see it again, nor would I see any of the worse ones, so let me clarify that as well.
> 
> ...



WOW.......

Be carefull when you pet yourself like that Fred.


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Not trying to be a smart azz BUT i saw a van at a hunt test in louisiana with the same logo ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sit Means Sit . Is this a chain like Burger King , where you buy a franchise ?


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Copiah Creek said:


> Not trying to be a smart azz BUT i saw a van at a hunt test in louisiana with the same logo ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sit Means Sit . Is this a chain like Burger King , where you buy a franchise ?


They do not learn anything but pet training in the business. Obviously, people come that are passionate about things. That particular guy is just getting into hunting dog stuff. He's been a Regional Schutzhund Champion previously.

We have SMS trainers that have been on a National or World's championship podium in 4 completely different venues, and that doesn't count 2 perfect scores in the highest level of AKC Obedience, which would be a totally different venue. Of course I'm not counting Jr. or Sr. Hunt test passes that both my wife and I have which would even be another venue. 

The Koehler system probably has people on National Podiums in more than 4 venues, but outside of that, the other systems aren't versatile enough to have that many and I've only been around 12 years. 

You can't keep a versatile system hidden even if you wanted to, cause people with other interests come through, unless you are in a sport or venue that only has like 10 people in it, and doesn't let anyone else in it. Proof of that, is that I'm sure there are thousands of people in Hunt Tests and field trials that have dabbled in AKC obedience, agility or something else.

I also have 96% of the people that have ever come through my school in any fashion for a dog training business in the 10 years I've had it.......and we're talking a few hundred, are all still doing it professionally today. No school of any sort has anywhere near those types of numbers. Hell, people that go to any school, half their graduating class isn't even doing it 6 months later.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Reinforcement, whether positive or negative, causes the behavior to be more likely.

Anything new?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Copiah Creek said:


> Not trying to be a smart azz BUT i saw a van at a hunt test in louisiana with the same logo ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sit Means Sit . Is this a chain like Burger King , where you buy a franchise ?


Despite the long reply, Fred did not answer your question. Yes, its a franchise like McDonalds or Burger King. Just click on one of the videos posted here and you too can get a sticker to place on your vehicle for about $15K. I have a friend that bought a SMS franchise. He is doing something else now.


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

2tall said:


> Despite the long reply, Fred did not answer your question. Yes, its a franchise like McDonalds or Burger King. Just click on one of the videos posted here and you too can get a sticker to place on your vehicle for about $15K. I have a friend that bought a SMS franchise. He is doing something else now.


Thanks i thought it had to be connected


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Folks 

It's our fault. Check the poster and egnor. Went to the end to post didn't need to read Fred's dribble. With all of the proven techniques and material availible if we egnor ,will go away like most pests.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

wojo said:


> Folks
> 
> It's our fault. Check the poster and egnor. Went to the end to post didn't need to read Fred's dribble. With all of the proven techniques and material availible if we egnor ,will go away like most pests.


Hey! Fancy meeting you here 
Hope the summer ends and we see you guys soon, can't wait for HTs to start up again in the fall. Hear you got a new lab puppy? Hope all is well!


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I think I'm going to try to collar condition my next pup while it's still in the womb. Configure the collar around the womb. And I' think I'll put headphones around the womb and let the puppies listen to the audio of the Lardy videos. I think Fred is on to something, and I'm going to take it one step further. What do you guys think, any merit?


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

OK so I only got to page 10 before I just couldn't read anymore so much of what I'm posting here may be repeat. 

Some of you talk about Rex Carr like you knew and trained with him when in fact you never did. Yes the most successful trainers in our sport utilize many of his methods but I wonder what he went through with some dogs to eventually get to what he did? I have no idea but I'm sure there was some hit and miss. I also wonder what many of the successful trainers of the day thought about his methods at first? 
What I am saying here is that there may in fact be better ways to train a retriever. How will we ever find them if someone isn't willing to step outside the box?

That said, THIS is NOT new. These methods have been tried. Worked to some extent but never as well as the methods most of us advocate. Will Fred be able to get this pup to the upper levels of HT's or FT's? I don't know, maybe but why? A guy just looking for a dog to be obedient and pick up a few ducks while hunting would probably do ok with these methods but again, why?


I honestly don't think as many people would have issue with some totally new out of the box training methods but again, this is NOT new. 

To Fred. Have you ever talked to retriever trainers that have tried some of the things you are doing to find out what worked for them and what didn't? Why maybe they moved to other methods? I'm figuring you haven't.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

achiro said:


> To Fred. Have you ever talked to retriever trainers that have tried some of the things you are doing to find out what worked for them and what didn't? Why maybe they moved to other methods? I'm figuring you haven't.


I know that you think that everyone on here is a Lardy/Carr disciple, because they so on the internet and they read a pamphlet, and watched 2 of his videos, and waved to him when he was passing by them at a seminar and are now best friends, and are doing his methods. 

Let's assume though that they all are, cause they all say they are, or let's even assume that a 1/4 of them are. No, let's assume 1/20th of them are just for the hell of it. He doesn't have a very high success rate cause of all of them people, none have even come close to what he's done.

It's like that in every sport. I'd be willing to bet only one thing, and that's that the people that are very, very, very close to Lardy, and see him every day and train with him every day, have even a clue of all the nuances involved, and I'll bet he's very gifted as well. I had him on my radio show years ago, and he's a very intelligent man. I'm sure he has tremendous heart and desire as well.

Then there are the naysayers that say "Oh, he gets all the good dogs, and if I had dogs like that, I'd win the Nationals all the time also!" Yeah right. 
So don't go putting the other 99.9 % of the people in that class as if they are all getting out there and doing his system, and knocking the world on fire.
I've been to hunt tests, and I've been to field trials and I've seen hundreds of dogs. Not as many as you guys, but if you think I'm sitting there watching just a ton of handlers and dogs that look like Lardy's.......your smoking crack.

Now, if you want to say that probably over 90% of people that CLAIM to use this system aren't very successful, that's closer to the truth. It's not the system though, it's just that your not Lardy.....period.

It's like that in everything though, so it's nothing personal. All of you line up to take the 'Eric Clapton Course' on playing the guitar. Go tell all your buddy's that you are 'doing what Eric Clapton does', then when they ask you to see a video of you playing the guitar, they can all go hide in the corner as well.

I have no opinion on Lardy's system, cause I haven't been close enough to it, to ever be foolish enough say "I'm doing it". I've seen his videos, and he's got very impressive dogs. I always tell people that he's the most accomplished trainer in the history of dog training for my money. 'HE' is the most accomplished. I think it's the most difficult sport cause it's not always on a field, and the situation always changes. I see a lot of sports. O.K., enough of that.

As far as if there is anyone I've talked to that have used my system, they do not know it. Heck, if you know my system out of all the hundreds of people here, just speak up and you can show me how much you know it. We haven't been in this sport......til recently. We went down this road how I was going to fall on my face with 'Charger' because I wasn't using some other system, but that didn't happen. Who knows, maybe I was just totally lucky, so we'll see again this go round. 

So what your saying is everyone's dog around me should always look a billion times better than mine cause they are all using the Lardy system, and I'm using something that doesn't work. I'll keep that in mind. None of these people are reposting test videos of mine, cause that's where it counts. It's nothing but a bunch of personal jabs with no substance. I didn't even have any experience the first go round. That's like you walking into a lower level test of a police trial or Obedience and doing very well. The argument of 'That's just a lower test (Jr. and Sr.) just doesn't hold water. If you suck, you suck. If you don't know what your doing, and have no clue.....the dog is not going to look very good.......period. People pass tests with sloppy looking dogs, I'll give you that, but your dog doesn't consistently look well if you haven't a clue no matter what you say. You guys look at the typing, I look at the dog.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

That would be a "no", given in a typical egomaniac ramble.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

I agree with you to an extent but think of it this way. If a bad trainer takes a good proven program they may be able to make something out of the dog. On the other hand if a really good trainer takes a bad program they may still be able to make something of a dog. 
Take that same bad trainer and use a bad program, and look out. 
Or take a good trainer and a good program and you get the best out of the dog you are training. 


The point I'm making is some of the best trainers have tried a whole lot of things and ended up using some pretty tried and true methods to achieve the goals. So the question begs, why reinvent the wheel using methods that have been used and long ago let go by most? 
As I said before, you are not really doing anything new there just maybe at a bit younger age.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

OK, Fred, got the day off from training, so I have to join in the train wreck now. You state in your last post, you didn't fall on your face with Charger. Well, maybe not fall on your face but you certainly stumbled. He was 3/3 in AKC JH, 1/3 in AKC SH, from the videos posted of his runs, he was bouncy at heel, a little vocal here and there, his sits were not exactly solid, he broke once, he switched at least once that I saw, he had cast and whistle refusals, sloppy bird delivery. In short, he was just like any other "newbie" trained dog trying to run a test for which they were not fully prepared (my own first dogs included), regardless of training system.

My ylm was the same age as Charger (both dogs are sadly gone now, way too young, RIP), both born 12/08. Both well bred young males. Mine went to a conventional ecollar system pro at 7 months with admittedly not much more than some basic leash OB from me early on, had a total of 8 months of pro training with two month-long breaks home. Did his SH title in 5 passes, no fails, by 17 months. He never had so much as a controlled break, he was never vocal, he walked at heel so closely his shoulder felt like it was glued to my left leg, he was an excellent marker overall, with typical young dog bloopers, he handled on 2 marks between all 5 tests, he lined the land blind in his title run, the only test I ran him in. The honor dog broke on our first run, was pretty cranked, Rhody never flinched. He was the most happy go lucky dog possible off the line, much like your Charger appeared. Since I didn't train or run him til the last month of his life, I can try to be a bit unbiased in what he did and was and others confirm what a nice dog he was.

All dogs are different, all dogs hit their stride at different ages and lots of thinks like vocalizing are at least in part genetic, it is not easy to compare two dogs because they just can't be identical in all ways. But loosely comparing our two boys, I don't see where your system or expertise was any better, faster or easier at getting the results that a "conventional" field retriever trainer got. 

I have seen a low level continuous stim used in some aspects of field training, it has its uses and it isn't all that hard to explain, though trickier to use. I'm not remotely a pro trainer but I got it when shown. I don't know what your big secret is or your expertise in training a field retriever, I haven't seen anything yet to make me say "whoa, now that is something I can use to do this better," mostly because I can't actually tell what you are doing with the ecollar in the videos as far as stim level and timing, or the logical progression of your program, it seems a bit willy nilly to conventional folk. But I do wish you and your new pup the best and a long life together whatever your pursuits, it is hell losing them so young.


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> OK, Fred, got the day off from training, so I have to join in the train wreck now. You state in your last post, you didn't fall on your face with Charger. Well, maybe not fall on your face but you certainly stumbled. He was 3/3 in AKC JH, 1/3 in AKC SH, from the videos posted of his runs, he was bouncy at heel, a little vocal here and there, his sits were not exactly solid, he broke once, he switched at least once that I saw, he had cast and whistle refusals, sloppy bird delivery. In short, he was just like any other "newbie" trained dog trying to run a test for which they were not fully prepared (my own first dogs included), regardless of training system.



Let's get the record straight. First of all, he was 1 for 2 at Sr. and not 1 for 3

2. Show me a video where he ever barked during the test.

3. It doesn't matter to me that YOU don't like that fact, that he was bouncy at heel. I love it. I have spirited dogs. Now, if that made him miss the mark or anything like that, but I'm not changing that, and until you want to show me where it prevented him from doing anything.........you can keep the flat dog coming to the line, I ain't having any of it.

Also, I skipped over to Sr. after just 3 Jr. tests, because I needed to feel my way out there once. I ain't making excuses, but I have my way of trialing. The biggest jump is Jr. to Sr. I turned right around a short time later and was prepared. You have to experience it. 

Great, since we were about the same, then you show me your best Jr. Test ever, and I'll compare that to my first 3. I realize that your best will look a million times better than the first ones I ever did, but I can handle that.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

what is the carr/lardy method. i never knew this to trained on the same principles


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

fredhassen said:


> Let's get the record straight. First of all, he was 1 for 2 at Sr. and not 1 for 3
> 
> 2. Show me a video where he ever barked during the test.
> 
> ...


EE has you as entered in 3 SH tests and failing 2, if you have a different account, then you might want to set that straight with them and/or the secretary of the event listing you as failed. Didn't say he barked during the test, he was vocal in the holding blind, vocal meaning to retriever people that he made noise, whined, whatever. 

You equate bouncing with spirit, so you say, that's your choice. Most of us don't consider a dog walking respectably at heel to be "flat", it is a desired behavior we train for. And it does matter that the dog bounces if the judges don't like it, there is a category for trainability to be scored, ya know. It is nice how you make things appear to be exactly what you train for but no one trains or desires a dog to "bounce" at heel in a peformance event, unless it is an intentional part, like dog dancing or something. You claim the biggest jump is JH to SH? You haven't run MH yet, so I don't think you have the experience to claim that. Oh, I know you have claimed to have watched many hunt tests and field trials, but your "expertise" does not bear that out at this point. 

I actually had pretty good JH dogs run and some sloppy ones. I did not, however, tape any of them, I'm there to run my dogs and am kept very busy either airing them or watching other dogs run, not there taping to promote a business. 

On second thought, I will go back out to train or pick berries, wash the dog van, something. Life's too short for the BS dominating this forum lately. Terribly sorry I even checked in.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Fred, 

most of us do not take videos of our dogs at trials and tests because we are not trying to sell anything.

we are doing for our own personal enjoyment.

you are the only Pro marketing his "system" on this site. ever wonder why?-Paul


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

paul young said:


> Fred,
> 
> most of us do not take videos of our dogs at trials and tests because we are not trying to sell anything.
> 
> ...


You should, it will help you a lot in your training to see things. Then again, you can bash all you want, and what the hell do I know anyway?


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## SCOTT C. (Oct 20, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> 3. It doesn't matter to me that YOU don't like that fact, that he was bouncy at heel. I love it. I have spirited dogs. Now, if that made him miss the mark or anything like that, but I'm not changing that, and until you want to show me where it prevented him from doing anything.........you can keep the flat dog coming to the line, I ain't having any of it.


Spoken like a true newbie!!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

SCOTT C. said:


> Spoken like a true newbie!!


Fred is not a real novice, or at least not as green as he'd like people to think in regards to field training a Lab. He had a field Lab years ago from Jerry Harris, name was Sara. He trained for and ran some minor stakes with her. His claim that neither he nor his SMS franchises don't train for field or hunting, well, he's had this ad out there with a Sara video on multiple of those video posting sites, not attaching the vid, but the text from it, posted by Fred (emphasis added by me):
" 9-6-07. 
Fred Hassen dog training with 'Sara', doing a starting and stopping drill. Fred Hassen is the creator of the 'No Limitations' dog training system, which specializes in *teaching retrievers, hunting dogs*, and all dogs to do a variety of things using the remote training collar. Fred Hassen does seminars throughout the country teaching dogs to retrieve from scratch with an ecollar. The No Limitations school, has 2 locations. One is located in Las Vegas, Nevada, and the other is in Denver, Colorado for dog training. Sit Means Sit dog training, is also a dog training company that is the fastest rising in the United States, and already has various locations throughout the country. for more info on this, please see www.///////.com We also help with police K9, *hunting, hunting retrievers, Labradors, Field Trials, Hunt Tests*, Agility training, and just about anything that requires a dog to work efficiently from more than a leash length away. Our remote collar training is very efficien"


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

So what ever happened to Sara??


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

He sent her back to Jerry-I believe his son still has her. Was a talented dog but he had a problem training with birds.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Every one of these threads reads the same. Fred runs the gauntlet, everybody swings as he runs by. Packleader cheers him on, waiting to run next.
You have to admit, Fred has great endurance.
Walt


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> He sent her back to Jerry-I believe his son still has her. Was a talented dog but he had a problem training with birds.


Why would he send her back to Jerry when he is such a talented trainer?


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## T Farmer (Aug 27, 2008)

Remember the saying "thats one less dog I have to worrie about"


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

greg magee said:


> Why would he send her back to Jerry when he is such a talented trainer?


personal. Jerry gave her to me as a pup, I did all the training with her, and then gave her back to Jerry. Jerry was so excited each time he came out to see her, that he badly wanted to run her. I just gave her back to him, and thanked him for giving me the opportunity. He said he got some ribbons on her, but I never saw Jerry or Sara again. You only get 4 personal shots without other substance and off to 'block' you go. See ya.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I'd be willin to bet Charger charger got returned to the original owner as well. Anyone want odds on that


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

If Kim Pfister is accurate with post #183, then Fred - you are giving legitimate dog trainers a bad name. You not only bring down field dog trainers as a group, you bring down legitimate professional trainers in all venues vicariously. Saying what you say as an amateur is one thing, but publicly marketing yourself as a professional in field dog training strikes me as unethical.

I am an accomplished guitar player, and I play many other instruments you pluck to make music. But, I claim no expertise in playing anyting but the guitar.

Just my opinion...

Snick


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Snicklefritz said:


> If Kim Pfister is accurate with post #183, then Fred - you are giving legitimate dog trainers a bad name. You not only bring down field dog trainers as a group, you bring down legitimate professional trainers in all venues vicariously. Saying what you say as an amateur is one thing, but publicly marketing yourself as a professional in field dog training strikes me as unethical.
> 
> I am an accomplished guitar player, and I play many other instruments you pluck to make music. But, I claim no expertise in playing anyting but the guitar.
> 
> ...


Snick, a 20 second search on just Bing, typed in "Fred Hassen Sara", you can see for yourself how many different links have him doing the same "starting and stopping" drill with the same text I posted, I didn't make it up, it is there on graspr, blinkx, articlealley to name a few. Notice the titles are hunting retriever training, btw, from 2006. (Try not to get sidetracked by the others that have Playmate of the Year Sara. . .) http://www.bing.com/search?q=fred hassen sara video&form=SOLTLB


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Snicklefritz said:


> If Kim Pfister is accurate with post #183, then Fred - you are giving legitimate dog trainers a bad name. You not only bring down field dog trainers as a group, you bring down legitimate professional trainers in all venues vicariously. Saying what you say as an amateur is one thing, but publicly marketing yourself as a professional in field dog training strikes me as unethical.
> 
> I am an accomplished guitar player, and I play many other instruments you pluck to make music. But, I claim no expertise in playing anyting but the guitar.
> 
> ...


Please quote where I said I was a professional in field dog training here. If you can't, it's just another personal assault. Now, the posts that I have recently written that exclaim "I do not train other people's hunting dogs" obviously don't count. Now it's your turn.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

fredhassen said:


> Please quote where I said I was a professional in field dog training here. If you can't, it's just another personal assault. Now, the posts that I have recently written that exclaim "I do not train other people's hunting dogs" obviously don't count. Now it's your turn.


From post #183



> Fred Hassen is the creator of the 'No Limitations' dog training system, which specializes in *teaching retrievers, hunting dogs*, and all dogs to do a variety of things using the remote training collar. Fred Hassen does seminars throughout the country teaching dogs to retrieve from scratch with an ecollar.


 (underline mine)

Fred, stop equivocating. Unless this quote is inaccurate - you are claiming to be accomplished enough to take peoples hard earned money to do the above. If you are not claiming to be a professional, then please say so in your marketing literature.

Still playin' my guitar, but nobody's payin' me to do so...not anymore at least 

Snick


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## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

---Quote---

Fred Hassen is the creator of the 'No Limitations' dog training system, which _specializes in *teaching retrievers, hunting dogs*_, and all dogs to do a variety of things using the remote training collar. _Fred Hassen does seminars throughout the country teaching dogs to retrieve from scratch_ with an ecollar.

---End Quote---
(underline mine)

Fred, stop equivocating. Unless this quote is inaccurate - you are claiming to be accomplished enough to take peoples hard earned money to do the above. If you are not claiming to be a professional, then please say so in your marketing literature.

Still playin' my guitar, but nobody's payin' me to do so...not anymore at least 

Snick[/quote]

"Teaching Retrievers". Do you really think that 'teaching retrievers' means "I am a professional field trial trainer"? I teach lots of retrievers to do lots of different things. If that statement is confusing to someone, they will simply call me wanting me to train their dog for a hunt test or something and I would tell them I don't have time for that. Why didn't you just up the ante and go grab another video that says "I train Border Collies", then show that I'm saying that I'm now a professional Sheep dog herding trainer. They would live in a box and think that's all Border Collies do also.

"Hunting Dogs" - I train a lot of hunting dogs for collar conditioning, FF, problems they may have etc. I teach them to use the collar more efficiently in lots of areas. Does that mean I'm saying "I'm a professional Field trial trainer". I help hunting dogs in a lot of areas at seminars from people that show up. I don't train their dogs though.

I think you would probably still be making money playing guitar if you spent more time practicing, and less time watching my 10 year old videos just to find a statement you can nit pick at.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> Please quote where I said I was a professional in field dog training here. If you can't, it's just another personal assault. Now, the posts that I have recently written that exclaim "I do not train other people's hunting dogs" obviously don't count. Now it's your turn.


 
Well I guess if you don't count stuff like this
*Sit Means Sit Dog Training 866-748-6748 www.sitmeanssit.com*

Fred Hassen dog training with 'Sara', doing a starting and stopping drill. Fred Hassen is the creator of the 'No Limitations' dog training system, which specializes in teaching retrievers, *hunting dogs*, and all dogs to do a variety of things using the remote training collar. Fred Hassen does seminars throughout the country teaching dogs to retrieve from scratch with an ecollar. The No Limitations school, has 2 locations. One is located in Las Vegas, Nevada, and the other is in Denver, Colorado for dog training. Sit Means Sit dog training, is also a dog training company that is the fastest rising in the United States, and already has various locations throughout the country. for more info on this, please see www.sitmeanssit.com We also help with police K9, hunting, hunting retrievers, Labradors, *Field Trials, Hunt Tests,* Agility training, and just about anything that requires a dog to work efficiently from more than a leash length away. Our remote collar training is very efficien


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Must be the heat... this is like watching water drops dance and sizzle on a red-hot skillet.....


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

I guess is just the word 'specializes' that bothers me. That suggests that you have 'special' expertise with retrievers and hunting dogs.If that's true then just show me, and I'll apologize.

Snick


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's useless to debate him or quote him because he has put almost everyone on ignore.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Mike Tome said:


> Must be the heat... this is like watching water drops dance and sizzle on a red-hot skillet.....


 
Yeah but those disappear very qucikly....this lingers like a hemorrhoid


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Yeah but those disappear very qucikly....this lingers like a hemorrhoid


And many of us keep coming back to itch it....


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

fredhassen said:


> It doesn't matter to me that YOU don't like that fact, that he was bouncy at heel. I love it. I have spirited dogs. Now, if that made him miss the mark or anything like that, but I'm not changing that, and until you want to show me where it prevented him from doing anything.........you can keep the flat dog coming to the line, I ain't having any of it.



fred i have refrained from comment but i have to ask you here - are you serious? a bouncy dog at heel is a tremendous safety risk! how could you safely flush upland birds or creep up on a duck-filled pond? and how can you trust that dog in the blind not to bounce into you as you rise to shoot at a flock of ducks?

i remember that video and that freaked me out. useless for hunting, and after all, thats what we are doing here.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> It doesn't matter to me that YOU don't like that fact, that he was bouncy at heel. I love it. I have spirited dogs. Now, if that made him miss the mark or anything like that, but I'm not changing that, and until you want to show me where it prevented him from doing anything........


You are ignorance personified, AND you revel in it.

Rarely in life do we see such a combination. Unreal.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> Let's get the record straight. First of all, he was 1 for 2 at Sr. and not 1 for 3
> 
> 2. Show me a video where he ever barked during the test.
> 
> ...


PM sent...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

david gibson said:


> fred i have refrained from comment but i have to ask you here - are you serious? a bouncy dog at heel is a tremendous safety risk! how could you safely flush upland birds or creep up on a duck-filled pond? and how can you trust that dog in the blind not to bounce into you as you rise to shoot at a flock of ducks?
> 
> i remember that video and that freaked me out. useless for hunting, and after all, thats what we are doing here.


 
I had a whole bunch of folks all bunched up over a walk up I did in masters where if your dog did not walk steady at heel it never saw the walk up.
Fred liking a bouncing dog and calling it spirited just show how little he know about the sport
just saying


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Every one of these threads reads the same. Fred runs the gauntlet, everybody swings as he runs by. Packleader cheers him on, waiting to run next.
> You have to admit, Fred has great endurance.
> Walt


Perfect...


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> I had a whole bunch of folks all bunched up over a walk up I did in masters where if your dog did not walk steady at heel it never saw the walk up.
> Fred liking a bouncing dog and calling it spirited just show how little he know about the sport
> just saying


 let that happen in a HRC test with a loaded gun and see how the judges react....


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

NOt defending anyone, but has anyone else seen Hillman's puppy video....

He has the collar on pretty dang early as well and has done alright in the Derby world, and has a couple of FC's.

Not saying Fred's way is the way to do it, only that there is likely no ONE way to do it. Personally I don't see why Fred keeps putting himself out there for bashing, and until he has titled a dog in the HT or FT world would have a hard time selling himself as an expert here, BUT there is a lot that we the retriever world can learn from the OB world.


Like I said not defending, just think that there is a lot to be said about the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third is doing it wrong.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I see a few comments which I sort of feel are out of emphathy for Fred. I see quite a few which seem pretty "harsh". 

All in all, 

I bet you Fred's website has had more hits in the last day than it has ever or in years. 

With all that being said, I've never been fond of the phrase "any publicity is good publicity". I can't imagine all of us on this board who are heavily involved in the retriever world, many professional, many food representatives, many Presidents of clubs, many board members and many who are just "in the know" when it comes to dogs, vets and just plain old training. 

The next time you hear a person ask about the "Sit means Sit" philosophy and system, what are we going to have to say about it? I know of a local lady who used to have the "Sit means Sit" stickers on her truck. They've been replaced with others recently. I don't know why they've been replaced but, from reading these discussions, If I had any affliation with what I've seen I'd run like hell in the other direction. 

That's not good publicity. Just my thoughts.


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## Josh Ward (Sep 10, 2003)

Sit means Sit = BullShiet means BullShiet


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> NOt defending anyone, but has anyone else seen Hillman's puppy video....
> 
> He has the collar on pretty dang early as well and has done alright in the Derby world, and has a couple of FC's.
> 
> ...


Never been to an obedience trial or test or whatever they are called but are dogs on pogo sticks the norm?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Never been to an obedience trial or test or whatever they are called but are dogs on pogo sticks the norm?


I think you're confused with dock dog training..hehehe...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

jwkimber45 said:


> Sit means Sit = BullShiet means BullShiet


 
Josh, unacceptable language...abuse of the forum.

Thread locked.

Chris


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