# Titled dogs from untitled parents



## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

2 other threads got me thinking and I know there are folks here that have the skinny so....

How many and who - FC, AFC, etc from litters where dam and sire had achieve no more that qaa, MH, HRCH status.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

More than one could count....but these two off the top of my head because they belonged to friends of mine

FC AFC Misty Morning Teal- O/H George Wilson: she came from untitled parents, but her grandsire was NFC Mi Cris Sailor and NFC AFC Butte's Blue Moon on her dam side


1972 NFC AFC Royal Moose's Moe- O/H William D Connor : had NFC AFC Cork of Oakwood on his sire's side and NFC Dual Ch Shed of Arden on his dam's side


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## ada5771 (Oct 31, 2012)

I often think of the breeding game and how many potential NFC dogs may be sitting on the front seat of some ones farm truck right now or catching an afternoon breeze on an old front porch. One Good Example I often think about is one of the most commonly known dogs in history Ebnostar lean mac. According to Hunting lab pedigree.com lean mac had 4 brothers and sisters. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t see where any of his siblings titled in anything higher than SH. Was this due to the homes of Mac's siblings or that Mac was just a super dog? What if Mr MacLean had chosen one of mac's brothers would it have had the same potential? People have paid some serious money to carry on Mac's genetics over the years while his sibling who possibly carry the same genetic DNA get over looked because they were either not placed in a competitive home? I haven’t done much research on the topic but i would like to know if there are any AFC or FC or possible NFC that come from entirely Non-title pedigrees... Creating a Similar situation to the Baseball movie Money Ball for the retriever game. I know the when it comes to picking pups everyone looks for the stats and stats don’t lie which has proven many of successful NFC and FC. But i bet there has been some No names that carried that same NFC genetic make-up that may have come from siblings to a NFC that were overlooked due to its home placement.


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

A buddy of mine often says"the best dog in the world is probably laying on somebody's couch".


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Sherwin Scott (RIP) bought Lean Mac from Canadian John MacLean after a successful Derby career, and was trained by Don Remien


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> More than one could count....but these two off the top of my head because they belonged to friends of mine
> 
> FC AFC Misty Morning Teal- O/H George Wilson: she came from untitled parents, but her grandsire was NFC Mi Cris Sailor and NFC AFC Butte's Blue Moon on her dam side
> 
> ...


Moon's parents also untitled but Massie's Sassy Boots was behind dad & mom had some Guy's Bitterroot Lucky lineage behind her. She threw several pups that placed in AA stakes but did not title. Not hard to do when the majority of those folks at the time ran 5 or 6 trials a year. 

& the Lean Mac story is not as posted on this thread. Sherwin had nothing to do with the dog until he was out of the Derby, but a pro Dennis Robbins, in Canada did. Ask Doug Grant for the whole story, he posts on here on occasion.


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## ada5771 (Oct 31, 2012)

Thanks Marvin and Bon, I do not know the full story of Mac but i just used him as an example that one of the most widely known studs in the retriever world was not born into a one pup litter...


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

1994 NAFC Lady Andrel's Nighthawk Lady


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

Well, there is Jim Pickering's Golden Jake. http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1509


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## bfarmer (Aug 6, 2006)

A current dog that Tim Milligan runs and is owned by Steve Penny named FC Boo. Has qualified for his second National and will be running next month. Keep an eye on him. Nice dog. 20 AA points this year. From a hunt test breeding.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

A team said:


> A buddy of mine often says"the best dog in the world is probably laying on somebody's couch".


I bet that is a true statement


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

NAFC FC Buster.


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## younggun86 (May 2, 2013)

i believe 2010 nafc fc acf fourleafs ice breaker (buster) is out of 2 untitled parents. I believe is father was close to his afc but didnt get it


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## younggun86 (May 2, 2013)

just seen jacobs post


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

alynn said:


> Well, there is Jim Pickering's Golden Jake. http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1509



Whoa! WTH?


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## Gary Wayne Abbott I (Dec 21, 2003)

FC Matilda's Cool Girl Nicoal SH

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=56337

I believe to be the only titled dog to be produced from two MH titled dogs. A hunting dog/pet, turned into hunt test dog, and finally campaigned and turned into a Field Champion. 

One of the most talented and sweetest dogs I have ever had the pleasure to know.


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## ssmith (Jun 30, 2006)

FC Pintails Hunters Choice. Bobby Georges first fc. From a nice bitch of Evens and a couch potato show breeding male


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

My now 14 year old CLF. Bought her out of the back of a pickup in a Kroger parking lot as a birthday present. No titles until 3rd generation back but it was Rascal. A MN past and 40+ master passes and countless hunting retrieves.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

A team said:


> A buddy of mine often says"the best dog in the world is probably laying on somebody's couch".



That statement is true, I think Chad Baker lets Grady stay in the house and I'm sure he lays on the couch.

Lonnie


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Whoa! WTH?


So what does that mean???????


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Golden Boy said:


> So what does that mean???????


It means: wow, that's amazing that an AFC came from a 5 generation pedigree with no titles whatsoever. That's amazing. WTH means what the heck, as in: that's surprising! I do see, however that there are some well titled and famous dogs in that pedigree further back.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I really don't see the big deal or surprise with this. Probably more dogs than You can count got those titles out of untitled parents; probably most peoples first dog; that they decided to throw into a field trial; and they did well, which is why they stuck with it. Now their second dog probably came from more of a pedigree; but I'd hazard to say that this was mostly due to the fact that they were now in the FT game; and when it came time to get a 2nd dog; they knew they'd been lucky with that first dog, they knew the field and they wanted to stack the deck a bit. Talent hides; it's more consistent in dog that are actually doing the work. But all these dogs are labs; they all come from a foundation stock; you trace it fur enough back, all the pedigrees mesh, and everybody came out of field and show champion dogs; its how the breed was developed. They are labs we haven't added in anything new into the foundation stock; since before Labrador was recognized as a breed; thus all that potential is hidden in the genes; even in untitled-untested lines and could very well pop-up anywhere. Population wise there are way more untested labs-untitled "pets"; than tested FT labs. So yes; odds dictate that the Best ever FT Lab was or is probably on someones couch and will never retrieve a bird. Of course the odds of you finding that one particular dog, training and running it; are very very small. So why wouldn't one stack the odds; by buying a dog out of proven lines.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

It's not a surprise if the parents aren't well titled, but for there to be zero titles of any kind for 4 or 5 gens is pretty interesting. We're talking about an AFC title out of no titles.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> It's not a surprise if the parents aren't well titled, but for there to be zero titles of any kind for 4 or 5 gens is pretty interesting. We're talking about an AFC title out of no titles.



Gee; How about the FACT that Jim Pickering is one heck of a dog trainer/handler, and maybe the bloodline gave him more to work with than what was on paper and he maximized what he had to work with


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I really don't see the big deal or surprise with this. Probably more dogs than You can count got those titles out of untitled parents; probably most peoples first dog; that they decided to throw into a field trial; and they did well, which is why they stuck with it. Now their second dog probably came from more of a pedigree; but I'd hazard to say that this was mostly due to the fact that they were now in the FT game; and when it came time to get a 2nd dog; they knew they'd been lucky with that first dog, they knew the field and they wanted to stack the deck a bit. Talent hides; it's more consistent in dog that are actually doing the work. But all these dogs are labs; they all come from a foundation stock; you trace it fur enough back, all the pedigrees mesh, and everybody came out of field and show champion dogs; its how the breed was developed. They are labs we haven't added in anything new into the foundation stock; since before Labrador was recognized as a breed; thus all that potential is hidden in the genes; even in untitled-untested lines and could very well pop-up anywhere. Population wise there are way more untested labs-untitled "pets"; than tested FT labs. So yes; odds dictate that the Best ever FT Lab was or is probably on someones couch and will never retrieve a bird. Of course the odds of you finding that one particular lab, training and running it; are very very small. So why wouldn't one stack the odds; by buying a dog out of proven lines.


I have to agree with this. In the Goldens check back to a dog called Poika of Handjem that appears if you go back far enough in most of the non-BARTY pedigrees, non titled hunting dog type, yes owned by the father of Mike Lardy, Dr. Henry Lardy. Also, Ben , you have to do some work, don't believe there is much of a pedigree there but very selective breedings with good genes including the National Derby Champion he sired, hint it wasn't "Cotton" . (FC/AFC Ben and National Derby Champion Ben's Enchanted Budswiser) both own/bred by Darrel and V Frisbie. The Labs have more genetics behind them . There have been more titled FC/AFC Lab bitches too in the last 30 years so the dogs from these bitches un field trial titled have produced some nice dogs. It isn't all the males! Also, in my opinion the so-called "lesser nuggets" hunt tests titles have had a dramatic impact on the breedings. No longer do the old time field trialers openly talk about special Olympics when it comes to hunt tests! A term used not with endearment 15 or 20 years ago. My thoughts on it.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

BonMallari said:


> Gee; How about the FACT that Jim Pickering is one heck of a dog trainer/handler, and maybe the bloodline gave him more to work with than what was on paper and he maximized what he had to work with


Maybe he was just the first to say; Hey this dogs pretty good; just as good as others; Heck why don't I throw him into a trial, see what happens. Addiction takes hold, the dog does well, and now you have a proven dog, He's even a Golden . You breed him, a few generations (keep playing- some of them do well), and now you've got a proven blood-line .


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

FC Dogwood's Fear Factor "Boo"


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have had two wonderful dogs - litter mates - who were born of untitled parents

- FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie
- FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker

That being said, when I go searching for puppies, I do not look for untitled parents. Others may believe that the best dog around is sitting on someone's couch, but I don't

Ted


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> It's not a surprise if the parents aren't well titled, but for there to be zero titles of any kind for 4 or 5 gens is pretty interesting. We're talking about an AFC title out of no titles.


I don't know if Jim is here anymore, but I knew him when he started with Jake. That dog was his first dog. So yes, Jim is good. And there was something in that pedigree.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

alynn said:


> I don't know if Jim is here anymore, but I knew him when he started with Jake. That dog was his first dog. So yes, Jim is good. And there was something in that pedigree.


That is neat and inspiring!

P.S. I love your dog names! Trill of a lifetime: Dax really caught my eye and I knew off the bat, then saw the others and had a good laugh!


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I really don't see the big deal or surprise with this. Probably more dogs than You can count got those titles out of untitled parents; probably most peoples first dog; that they decided to throw into a field trial; and they did well, which is why they stuck with it.


My thoughts also.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> I have had two wonderful dogs - litter mates - who were born of untitled parents
> 
> - FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie
> - FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker
> ...


Ted ,while I understand what you wrote ,and dont get me wrong you probably have forgotten more about FT's than I will ever know but,I feel that comments like this make you one of the people in this game that think you are above the common person. Kind of amazed you would lower your self to post on such a low end thread such as this.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

shawninthesticks said:


> Ted ,while I understand what you wrote ,and dont get me wrong you probably have forgotten more about FT's than I will ever know but,I feel that comments like this make you one of the people in this game that think you are above the common person. Kind of amazed you would lower your self to post on such a low end thread such as this.


Seems like common sense to me if one is pursuing a FT dog.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Exactly, me to and most others that understand what titles represent, but lets make sure that we all know that Mr. Shih would not even consider such a thing.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

shawninthesticks said:


> Ted ,while I understand what you wrote ,and dont get me wrong you probably have forgotten more about FT's than I will ever know but,I feel that comments like this make you one of the people in this game that think you are above the common person. Kind of amazed you would lower your self to post on such a low end thread such as this.


when I was looking for my first competition dog the breeder asked me: "If you were adopting a child would you chose one from the village idiot or a Rhodes scholar????"


If you have a choice I think Ted makes good sense.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Rnd said:


> when I was looking for my first competition dog the breeder asked me: "If you were adopting a child would you chose one from the village idiot or a Rhodes scholar????"
> 
> 
> If you have a choice I think Ted makes good sense.


To play devil's advocate to this....there is a lot of ground between the village idiot and a Rhodes scholar.  Those winners from untitled dogs didn't come from the village idiot. More than likely, they came from a hard working set of parents with a ton of common sense, an above average intelligence, and work ethic....not exclusive to Rhodes scholars by any means, but necessary to get the job done.

Would you rather have Bill Gates or Bill Clinton?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

shawninthesticks said:


> Exactly, me to and most others that understand what titles represent, but lets make sure that we all know that Mr. Shih would not even consider such a thing.


I have no idea what you are saying


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree Sharon. It's true that we know a pup from an FC-FC breeding has Rhodes Scholar parents, but it does not follow that all pups not from an FC-FC breeding are out of village idiots. The simple fact is that we have no idea about the capabilities of untrained dogs. My dog has 10 remaining siblings, and I am not aware that any of the rest of them even hunt, much less play any of the dog games. You can't convince me that at least one of them could have done fairly well (or possibly better) had they been asked to do so.

And we all know that getting a pup from the FC- FC breeding does not guarantee that the pup will be an FC either. You may have stacked the odds as much in your favor as you could, but there are still no guarantees. I don't see Michael Jordan's kids playing in the NBA.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

shawninthesticks said:


> Ted ,while I understand what you wrote ,and dont get me wrong you probably have forgotten more about FT's than I will ever know but,I feel that comments like this make you one of the people in this game that think you are above the common person. Kind of amazed you would lower your self to post on such a low end thread such as this.



Has nothing to do with above or below. Has nothing to do with status. Only has to do with percentages. Period. If you read anything more into my post than that, you are projecting your own sentiments not mine. I don't believe that the next great dog is sitting on someone's couch. If you do, you are entitled to your opinion. But, I disagree.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

There are so many variables. Does that well-bred pup end up in the right hands? Does it have an owner who can foot the bill to play the game at the top level? With the right trainer to bring out the best in the dog? If not, will the dog be washed out or will another trainer get a shot at it and the dog will shine? Same scenario goes for the untitled breeding.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

RookieTrainer said:


> I agree Sharon. It's true that we know a pup from an FC-FC breeding has Rhodes Scholar parents, but it does not follow that all pups not from an FC-FC breeding are out of village idiots. The simple fact is that we have no idea about the capabilities of untrained dogs. My dog has 10 remaining siblings, and I am not aware that any of the rest of them even hunt, much less play any of the dog games. You can't convince me that at least one of them could have done fairly well (or possibly better) had they been asked to do so.
> 
> And we all know that getting a pup from the FC- FC breeding does not guarantee that the pup will be an FC either. You may have stacked the odds as much in your favor as you could, but there are still no guarantees. I don't see Michael Jordan's kids playing in the NBA.


To add to that, we also don't know that the FC x FC came from titled parents either. The one thing that is likely from an FC x FC litter is that the pups will all start out in competition homes, so they've already got a better chance than a pup from untitled parents.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Sharon Potter said:


> To play devil's advocate to this....there is a lot of ground between the village idiot and a Rhodes scholar.  Those winners from untitled dogs didn't come from the village idiot. More than likely, they came from a hard working set of parents with a ton of common sense, an above average intelligence, and work ethic....not exclusive to Rhodes scholars by any means, but necessary to get the job done.
> 
> Would you rather have Bill Gates or Bill Clinton?



Sharon, 

when that question was posed to me Microsoft had just went public with it's IPO. 

Bill Gates was no idiot...and anybody that knew Bill Clinton.... Would NOT adopt any offspring of his 

point taken-- just trying to add to the thread. ...

Randy


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

shawninthesticks said:


> Exactly, me to and most others that understand what titles represent, but lets make sure that we all know that Mr. Shih would not even consider such a thing.


If you started a poll and asked whether FT competitors would consider a puppy from untitled parents vs. a litter from titled parents I'm pretty certain you'd find Mr. Shih is not in the minority. Heck, you would probably find the same thing from serious hunt testers too. 

Jealousy is an unattractive trait regards,


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Is it just me or does this discussion remind anyone of the comedy Trading Places? .... "Given the right surroundings and encouragement, I'll bet that that man could run our company as well as Winthorpe." Great movie wrt to the discussion of breeding or environment having the larger role in failure or success. My guess would be that FT/HT success comes to those pups raised in the correct environments, regardless of the titles, or lack thereof on the parents. That said, when I'm shopping for a new pup, I'll lean towards the pup with a titled parent or two, just to put the odds in my favor.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I also wonder if there is any trainer prejudice based on pedigree/titles? (again, playing devil's advocate)

I am vaguely recalling a situation several years ago where two pups from the same owner were sent to the trainer. One was from am impressive, heavily titled breeding, the other from a fairly nondescript breeding. The trainer got them mixed up. As time went by, the trainer wanted to wash out the pup he thought was from nondescript breeding and raved about the talent of the other pup that he thought was from the heavily titled parents.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Rick_C said:


> If you started a poll and asked whether FT competitors would consider a puppy from untitled parents vs. a litter from titled parents I'm pretty certain you'd find Mr. Shih is not in the minority. Heck, you would probably find the same thing from serious hunt testers too.


This is true; when you've played the game and your starting with your second dog; you have a better idea what you want; and you have a better idea where to get it. Most people would not go back to an untitled breeding, especially if they were already committed to the sport and had earned titles themselves. Unless of course they were looking for something (ex; particular lines of dog that you couldn't find anywhere else; cuz you were an idiot that fixed your dog, before test addiction set in). After the first dog; I think most of us know what goes into getting those titles; and once in the sport we respect a dogs (skill level) and a handlers (commitment-effort) that has been put forth to obtain qualifications. We respect those owners and their dogs way more than those who own & breed dogs, yet don't participate in our sport, and for which we have no gauge of what skill-set the parents actually have. So for most us it would be ludicrous to go back to untried parents. This doesn't mean that there's anything inferior about untitled parents, or even generations of untitled parents; I hazard to say most people started with that type of dog; and wouldn't have traded those very unique starter dogs for anything in the world.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> I also wonder if there is any trainer prejudice based on pedigree/titles? (again, playing devil's advocate)
> .


What about various Judges? (if your going to burn, you should sizzle)


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> To add to that, we also don't know that the FC x FC came from titled parents either. The one thing that is likely from an FC x FC litter is that the pups will all start out in competition homes, so they've already got a better chance than a pup from untitled parents.


Another good point. To continue with my analogy, had Michael Jordan grown up in Alabama, he may have played tight end.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FC-AFC Circuit Madam and FC-AFC Circuit Preacher
McGuffy's Speed Racer X Hiwood Rock's Sassy Polly
Both sire and dam were unsuccessfully campaigned. There may have been at least one other titled offspring. Circuit Madam was a multiple time National Finalist if my memory is accurate. Had you watched either parent you would not have wanted a dog from either much less together.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Had you watched either parent you would not have wanted a dog from either much less together.


Priceless     .


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> Priceless     .


That was funny and carries relevance everyday!


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Actually McGuffy's Speed Racer went 3 series in the '84 Nat Am, the year Cody won it all!
Circuit Madam was a Nat Open Finalist in '91-'95 and a Nat Am Finalist in '90. The breeding of McGuffy's Speed Racer x Hiwood Rock's Sassy Polly produced:
FC-AFC Circuit Madam - 138.5 all-age pts
FC-AFC Reibar's Wrangler - 117 all-age pts (Nat Am Finalist - '91)
Repmems Zoomer - 1 am pt
AFC Rufus R Rufus Aka Pigpen - 16 all-age pts
FC-AFC Winsom Partner (producer of at least two FC-AFCs) - 98.5 all-age pts


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## Gary Wayne Abbott I (Dec 21, 2003)

FC Glen Lake's Lion Pride

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=54457

You have to go back 4 generations to find a title in Piper's pedigree. Piper was washed out as a trial dog by another pro at 14 months of age and yet preservered on to campaign and attain his FC at 3.5 years old.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

EdA said:


> FC-AFC Circuit Madam and FC-AFC Circuit Preacher
> McGuffy's Speed Racer X Hiwood Rock's Sassy Polly
> Both sire and dam were unsuccessfully campaigned. There may have been at least one other titled offspring. Circuit Madam was a multiple time National Finalist if my memory is accurate. Had you watched either parent you would not have wanted a dog from either much less together.


This set me to thinking ... those two parents carried a "collection" of genes from lineage that probably had some good genes as well as "marginal". The stars aligned and the best of each "collection" found each other in those parents' offspring.

Another poster wondered about Lean Mac's siblings ... it is possible that one of those siblings also had a "collection" of genes to offer the gene pool that could have had a similar outcome to Dr. Ed's example.

It is completely logical for a FT enthusiast to look for proven parents for their new pup. So very much time, effort and money will be invested in such as pup.

Does logic sometimes stifle our innovative thinking? Both Gates and Jobs were not much interested in school learning, but their innovative thinking changed the world forever. Maybe we need both the logical and the "dreamers"?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Does logic sometimes stifle our innovative thinking? Both Gates and Jobs were not much interested in school learning, but their innovative thinking changed the world forever. Maybe we need both the logical and the "dreamers"?


Gates & Allen bought MS-DOS from a programmer for $50K, Jobs had Wozniak as his thinker & doer. It is amazing how becoming wealthy changes the outlook on one's genes & supposed intelligence. When Gates was at Harvard he did not have the highest SAT score in his dorm room . W Gates Sr. is a very intelligent man, managing partner for years of one of Seattle's big law firms & I'm sure along the way gave his son a little advice.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Marvin S said:


> Gates & Allen bought MS-DOS from a programmer for $50K, Jobs had Wozniak as his thinker & doer. It is amazing how becoming wealthy changes the outlook on one's genes & supposed intelligence. When Gates was at Harvard he did not have the highest SAT score in his dorm room . W Gates Sr. is a very intelligent man, managing partner for years of one of Seattle's big law firms & *I'm sure along the way gave his son a little advice*.


Yeah... Like how to raise the tax base on the Puget Sound Populace


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

FC Banjo and FC AFC LaThunder Rue, by Painter's Daily Double ex RCs Midnight Madness.

Amy Dahl


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Marvin S said:


> Gates & Allen bought MS-DOS from a programmer for $50K, Jobs had Wozniak as his thinker & doer.[\QUOTE]
> 
> First statement is true, but one could argue that it demonstrates that Gates and Allen were able to see about $9 billion more value in the potential of MS-DOS that the poor programmer who sold it to him. So what does this say about, say, trainer expertise as opposed to raw natural ability?


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Re Fanny (Circuit Madam) and Preacher -- I trained with them on a regular basis at one time, Wrangler would appear occasionally as well as a couple of other littermates. Apparently the breeding that produced them was done at least three times and I was told that the pups were either spectacular or totally worthless (at least in the field trial world) and that there seemed to be no in-between. This may have been field trial lore, but I was told this by Kathy and I think, if I remember correctly, Ken agreed. The one on here that would know would be Grady (the GG) as he had quite a few of those dogs in training.

For the Golden group, Earl brought this up just as I was thinking about Poika of Handjam, particularly when bred to Shenandoah of Stilrovin. Jackie Mertens wrote an excellent article about it in the Sept-Oct, 2010, issue in the Golden Retriever News. "During his life, Poika was the only Golden that was a GRCA Outstanding Sire without ever competing in anything."

Glenda


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Glenda Brown said:


> Re Fanny (Circuit Madam) and Preacher -- I trained with them on a regular basis at one time, Wrangler would appear occasionally as well as a couple of other littermates. Apparently the breeding that produced them was done at least three times and I was told that the pups were either spectacular or totally worthless (at least in the field trial world) and that there seemed to be no in-between. This may have been field trial lore, but I was told this by Kathy and I think, if I remember correctly, Ken agreed. The one on here that would know would be Grady (the GG) as he had quite a few of those dogs in training.
> 
> For the Golden group, Earl brought this up just as I was thinking about Poika of Handjam, particularly when bred to Shenandoah of Stilrovin. Jackie Mertens wrote an excellent article about it in the Sept-Oct, 2010, issue in the Golden Retriever News. "During his life, Poika was the only Golden that was a GRCA Outstanding Sire without ever competing in anything."
> 
> Glenda



Who was the other notable dam Glenda? The one refused to retrieve and hated birds and hunting, but she produced several pups who got field titles?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Who was the other notable dam Glenda? The one refused to retrieve and hated birds and hunting, but she produced several pups who got field titles?


Poika when bred to Shenandoah of Stilrovin I think produced four FC/AFC Goldens, as Glenda said, check out Jackie's Website lots of good Golden stuff on there. There are just too many Labs to keep track of such stuff and I am not a historian of the Labs, many on RTF are. I do think circa 2013 I would want to get the best breeding I could afford/find if doing field trials or hunt tests. Years ago when I had Goldens they called
the great dogs from limited backgrounds "sports" or throwbacks to some famous ancestor from the gene pool. After all if I remember my high school genetics, %50 sire and dam, %25. grandparents, 12.5% or sumthing like that G grandparents and about %6. gg grandparents AND the rest who cares. Either way 6 dogs contribute %75. of the make-up on the dogs rather then perhaps who gets the dog and the training they receive. There are some great trainers out there that have the know how to recognize what they have etc. Besides Pickering there are others too who have had National Finalists with absolutely nothing in the pedigrees amateur trained. Several come to mind.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

almost forgot to add this dog to the list and the story behind it FC Remhoc's LeJo Juderi...Jud came from absolutely nothing, the female was owned by the Schomer's and was bred to a male dog sired by Spring Farms Lucky

first the name: remhoc's is Schomer spelled backwards LeJo is for Lee and Joe (Mr and Mrs Schomer)..Juderi is for Juan,Judy and Ric Martin who co owned the dog with his brother Tom..

Tommy was in College Station at the time trying to get accepted into Med school as was his brother Ric, well Mr Schomer took a liking to Clint, Tommy and Ric and was always giving them training advice along with life lessons,and guidance on how to behave at field trials..reminding the boys to always show up with a clean truck,clean shirt, freshly shaven etc...apparently those lessons didnt get through to to Tom and Ric, because they had to be separated one afternoon in the parking lot after a brawl at a FT when they had a minor disagreement on how Tommy had handled Jud in the trial..

The guys got accepted to Baylor Medical School about the same time Clint went to med school so the training of Jud went over to Mr Schomer...He was a Finalist with Jud in the '79 National Open

Tom is now one of the pre eminent authorities on pediatric cardio thoracic surgery in the country, and Ric is Chief of Thoracic surgery for a hospital here in Las Vegas and considered to be the one of the best in his field...So maybe Mr Schomer's life lessons finally got through to the boys


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Who was the other notable dam Glenda? The one refused to retrieve and hated birds and hunting, but she produced several pups who got field titles? 

The other notable dam was Gilnockie Coquette and you can read about her in the GRNs Mar/Apr 2012. In one litter were Dual Ch. Stilrovin Nitro Express; FC Stilrovin Super Speed; and FC Stilrovin Katherine. She also produced Dual Champion Stilrovin Rip's Pride; CH Krasnodar of Kingswere; Ch. Stilroving Shur Shot; Ch. Stilroving Red Head Reliance and Can. Ch. Stilrovin Victor plus some *** Goldens. And Coquette was considered plain looking herself!

The four FC-AFC produced by Poika and Shenandoah of Stilrovin were: FC-AFC Kinike Coquette CD; FC-AFC Kinike Chancellor; FC-AFC Northbreak's Kinike Sir Jim; and, FC-AFC Riverview's Kinike De Rojo. Also, several other Qualified AA offspring.

Now if there are any errors, blame them on it being a hectic day. But you can pull the articles and check them out for accuracy.

Glenda


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

It would be interesting to see a FT pro receive two puppies to train, same age, same sex, etc. BUT one comes from an FC x FC breeding and the other comes from untitled parents with very few to no titled ancestors in the three generation pedigree.

The trainer would have absolutely NO information regarding the puppies' bloodlines.

I would suspect that the FC x FC puppy would possess inherent characteristics that the other puppy might lack. However, both puppies should have the ability to learn and be trainable to a certain extent. 

Lonnie Spann


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Glenda Brown said:


> Who was the other notable dam Glenda? The one refused to retrieve and hated birds and hunting, but she produced several pups who got field titles?
> 
> The other notable dam was Gilnockie Coquette and you can read about her in the GRNs Mar/Apr 2012. In one litter were Dual Ch. Stilrovin Nitro Express; FC Stilrovin Super Speed; and FC Stilrovin Katherine. She also produced Dual Champion Stilrovin Rip's Pride; CH Krasnodar of Kingswere; Ch. Stilroving Shur Shot; Ch. Stilroving Red Head Reliance and Can. Ch. Stilrovin Victor plus some *** Goldens. And Coquette was considered plain looking herself!
> 
> ...


Yes, that's exactly who I was thinking of. Thanks Glenda!


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