# New training ideas/old training ideas? -Stick fetch



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Yesterday I was having a discussion, on stick fetch with a few training friends. 

One disputed the value of stick fetch. I have noticed on a few threads, stick fetch being less used. Why?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Effective use of time. It's still a good technique. It still is useful in distraction proofing, and even in the pressure conditioning process. But it's limited in those regards, in my opinion, so I've personally gotten away from it in the interest of using my time more effectively. The modern highly flexible e-collar is what has allowed me that choice for most dogs. As a step that used to be a standard part of progression, it's become more of an option.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAIFgb3Ki0

Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> Effective use of time. It's still a good technique. It still is useful in distraction proofing, and even in the pressure conditioning process. But it's limited in those regards, in my opinion, so I've personally gotten away from it in the interest of using my time more effectively. The modern highly flexible e-collar is what has allowed me that choice for most dogs. As a step that used to be a standard part of progression, it's become more of an option.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAIFgb3Ki0
> 
> Evan


How much time, in your estimation, does the stick fetch portion of a program take?

Is there any detrimental impact on the dog's training if one incorporates stick fetch into the program?

Is anything lost in the training program if one chooses to utilize this step?


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Wow..I really know nothing...I thought it was about "fetching sticks".

One question though. That dog was really chomping down on that bumper will this be addressed later?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> How much time, in your estimation, does the stick fetch portion of a program take?


I normally spend 3-5 days doing Walking (Stick) Fetch once the dog is converted to the stimulus.


Chris Atkinson said:


> Is there any detrimental impact on the dog's training if one incorporates stick fetch into the program?


With most dogs, no. Many get a nice little distraction proofing, and a bit of pressure conditioning. 

Some dogs really don't react well to the stick. I've had a few very nice dogs get very bugged by it. We simply by-passed it and CC'd.


Chris Atkinson said:


> Is anything lost in the training program if one chooses to utilize this step?


Only time that might have been better spent moving on to CC. Not a big loss, and each trainer should weigh what they perceive as its benefits against how much training time they normally have. If time isn't an issue it's a good idea to do it.


Pas Bon said:


> Wow..I really know nothing...I thought it was about "fetching sticks".
> 
> One question though. That dog was really chomping down on that bumper will this be addressed later?


That dog is an especially nice animal that was sold as a pup to someone who didn't get that fixed the first time through Basics. We shot a lot of video of him going all the back through Basics because he provided many examples of how to correct such things. He now has a very solid quiet mouth, but it took a ton of work.

Evan


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Hey, is there still a need to "Stick to Pile" to aid in teaching a dog force to pile? Figured I would try to keep the discussion going on the use of the stick (aside from scratching our pups back)..  I'm about to turn over the computer to the better half, so I will be back tomorrow!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's my personal take.

I have taken a grand total of one dog through the "basics program". "Basics Program" in the context of this post, is tied to the flow of this particular thread. Hopefully we don't derail in this thread on the definition of "basics program".

To my mind, we are training our dogs for the long haul. Any three day step that may possibly provide benefit, and that does not take away from the dog's education, seems like a logical piece to include in the curriculum. 

I recall a discussion I had with Mike Lardy a while back when I was progressing through the basics program with my current lab. I was commenting upon how interestingly cool each and every step of the program builds upon the previous step. My comment was that from an intuitive human standpoint, the steps did not always make complete sense on first blush, yet when applied in a stepwise fashion, they were incredibly seamless flowing on and on as the dog's education advanced. 

This came to a discussion about various folks who had good luck, with a good dog, skipping "step X". The takeaway was that if you include it in your curriculum, and you have a "good dog", you may only spend a session or two before moving on. But at least it is in there and you covered it. And you may find a dog who really does benefit from that particular step at some point. And this was a piece of why some dogs wind up with "holes" in their basics. The trainer had "always" had good luck skipping step "X". So the trainer continues to skip step X...including the dog who could have benefitted from it.

It's obvious that many do have success skipping stick fetch. I've seen the proof and the dogs are remarkable. So I'm not trying to refute Evan's claims. Obviously there are lots of happy folks with good dogs adhering to Evan's program as prescribed.

I am commenting that for me personally, I will likely folllow a more conservative approach and choose to incorporate a number of various stimuli and tools, including stick fetch, to progress a pup through basics.

It's all good!

Chris


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Here's my personal take.
> 
> I have taken a grand total of one dog through the "basics program". "Basics Program" in the context of this post, is tied to the flow of this particular thread. Hopefully we don't derail in this thread on the definition of "basics program".
> 
> ...


Great informative discussion between you and Evan. Thanks


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Stick, ear pinch, collar, if done correctly should get the same point across. The stick is viewed by the pup as you striking him, simply an extension of your hand. The ear pinch the same, and as is the collar, if done correctly. Depends on what type of pressure you use for fetch in your yard work also. My collar or ear pinch may mean the same as your stick to my dog. As for doing a formal stick fetch or ladder fetch, i skip it but i also dont do lardys yard program. All that said if i can get through to pup with the stick by all means i will. I also don't see a hole being created by doing or not doing stick fetch, again depends on what program


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

A good friend of mine has managed to train an AFC/AFTCH, multiple QAA dogs, several Master Hunters, and a Senior Hunter and doesn't even own a "heeling stick" (a.k.a., a whip.) Even the little house Poodle has been taught to reliably fetch its little dumbbell to hand. I've seen the same person turn around several dogs that some well-known pros had ruined with their force methods. Two of the dogs went from refusing to fetch anything to retrieving to hand from the water in one week. Call me crazy but if that isn't proof of the effectiveness of the low-force methods, what is?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

J. Walker said:


> A good friend of mine has managed to train an AFC/AFTCH, multiple QAA dogs, several Master Hunters, and a Senior Hunter and doesn't even own a "heeling stick" (a.k.a., a whip.)....Call me crazy but if that isn't proof of the effectiveness of the low-force methods, what is?


Sort of. It's evidence of a good dog person. But I can hear Rex's voice echoing in my ear "But what might they have been?"

Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

champ said:


> Stick, ear pinch, collar, if done correctly should get the same point across. The stick is viewed by the pup as you striking him, simply an extension of your hand. The ear pinch the same, and as is the collar, if done correctly. Depends on what type of pressure you use for fetch in your yard work also. My collar or ear pinch may mean the same as your stick to my dog. As for doing a formal stick fetch or ladder fetch, i skip it but i also dont do lardys yard program. All that said if i can get through to pup with the stick by all means i will. I also don't see a hole being created by doing or not doing stick fetch, again depends on what program


Just to be clear, I was not trying to imply that skipping stick fetch would automatically create a training hole. 

My intent was to indicate that many times folks will find that in using a certain program, they can customize it by skipping a step for certain dogs. But then, that same trainer may find a hole, with a specific dog. This could be due to that particular dog missing out on the potential added learning that the skipped step could have given.

So, what I'm saying is: When I personally follow the same program with my next dog, that I did with my current dog, I will conservatively choose to include the stick fetch. This is due to the fact that stick fetch is part of the standard curriculum in the program I choose to follow. 

There are so many different ways to skin a cat. In the end, a good dog is a good dog.

Chris


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

> There are so many different ways to skin a cat. In the end, a good dog is a good dog.


But what if the dog is not the best dog on the block? Gonna just put the dog down, or be open to try methods that you don't think are necessary with most dogs.

Stick fetch dates back as far as I can remember. I can distinctly remember asking my dad why he was 'hitting the dog'. (that was in the late 40s) He thought it important enough to stop what he was doing and explain it to me in detail. What sticks in my mind to this day is he said it was the same as turning the cat loose at the same time as telling the dog to fetch the training buck, but the problem was that it was too hard for him to catch the cat over and over.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Just to be clear, I was not trying to imply that skipping stick fetch would automatically create a training hole.
> 
> My intent was to indicate that many times folks will find that in using a certain program, they can customize it by skipping a step for certain dogs. But then, that same trainer may find a hole, with a specific dog. This could be due to that particular dog missing out on the potential added learning that the skipped step could have given.
> 
> ...


Great discussion. Underline and bold "in the program I choose to follow"! There are many ways to get an end result.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

"Sort of. It's evidence of a good dog person. But I can hear Rex's voice echoing in my ear "But what might they have been?"

I dout very seriously that the mere use of a stick in their basics would have changed their very succesfully outcome. I think what most fail to realize that the methods like stick fetch, marbles, BB's, etc. were all preludes to a hot collar. These technics were used to condition a dog to pressure. The collars were hot and not variable. So as not to create problems trainers conditioned them to various forms of pressure so when they introduced the collar all hell did not break loose. Todays methods of conditioning are very advanced and the variable collar has let todays trainer be as efficient as possible.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> Sort of. It's evidence of a good dog person. But I can hear Rex's voice echoing in my ear "But what might they have been?"
> 
> Evan


Just because someone messed up a dog is no reason to put the whole program in the trash pile... Evans point is very relevant ... How do we know what the potiential of any dog would have been in the hands of the right trainer ....The use of force and praise must be used in all programs ...not just one or the other....Force is a part of nature ... Birds are forced out of nest to fly, pack animals have an order to who eats first and last... 

Good post Chris and Evan ... I'm still using the stick fetch portion for proofing... Have a good weekend ...Steve S


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

With today's variable strength collars, the pressure is custom fitted to the dog if done right.

So, it would seem to me, that if you can precisely administer the right amount of pressure automatically with very good timing, that's probably somewhat safer than trying to use a stick or other method where timing, precision and accuracy can't be as well controlled.

I think equating the stick to marble slingshots is probably not a fair comparison. Much of the value of the stick is distraction, not punishment, and often not any correction, but pure distraction.


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

The stick is another tool for pressure,along with the choke chain,your hand,your voice,and electric collar,just another tool.A professional auto mechanic has a cabinet full of tools,your idiot neighbour has a pair of "vise-grips",which one would you let work on your truck?


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Just to be clear, I was not trying to imply that skipping stick fetch would automatically create a training hole.
> 
> My intent was to indicate that many times folks will find that in using a certain program, they can customize it by skipping a step for certain dogs. But then, that same trainer may find a hole, with a specific dog. This could be due to that particular dog missing out on the potential added learning that the skipped step could have given.
> 
> ...



Point taken


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

rednek said:


> The stick is another tool for pressure,along with the choke chain,your hand,your voice,and electric collar,just another tool.A professional auto mechanic has a cabinet full of tools,your idiot neighbour has a pair of "vise-grips",which one would you let work on your truck?


I know this is about stick fetch but as stated above it is another tool to help with the conditioning process to pressure as are the other devices used in training ...In this months Retriever News there is an article about " Is Your Dog Truely Conditioned" ...It is about the use of the collar but I think it should go beyond that piece of equipment too....Conditioning to pressure begins far back in the whole training process... I believe this conditioning process is not ingrained well enough in a lot of dogs...All non collar trained dogs have to understand pressure too...Steve S


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

dexdoolittle said:


> "Sort of. It's evidence of a good dog person. But I can hear Rex's voice echoing in my ear "But what might they have been?"
> 
> I dout very seriously that the mere use of a stick in their basics would have changed their very succesfully outcome. I think what most fail to realize that the methods like stick fetch, marbles, BB's, etc. were all preludes to a hot collar. These technics were used to condition a dog to pressure. The collars were hot and not variable. So as not to create problems trainers conditioned them to various forms of pressure so when they introduced the collar all hell did not break loose. Todays methods of conditioning are very advanced and the variable collar has let todays trainer be as efficient as possible.


I think your off basis, stick fetch is used today as a modern training technique. I get your point about marbles and bbs, but stick fetch if I am not mistaken is used still by Lardy? Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

champ said:


> I think your off basis, stick fetch is used today as a modern training technique. I get your point about marbles and bbs, but stick fetch if I am not mistaken is used still by Lardy? Please correct me if I am wrong.


This is hilarious. "champ," do you know who you are corresponding with? 

Gosh Dex, if you only had a little experience... ;-)

Melanie


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I think your off basis, stick fetch is used today as a modern training technique.


Dex of course is right and I echo Melanie's sentiment. My young dog pro doesn't stick fetch and we are going back 20 years. My last dog that was stick fetched by a pro was in the mid-80's when he was starting out. I'm sure there are people that still stick fetch but this is one step that has evolved.

No wonder we are seeing less and less of knowlegible trainers on here and have to endure the flash in the pan hopefuls and wannabes giving advice more and more. I really feel sorry for people looking for advice because this forum has less and less of good advice, and given in a condescending manner to boot.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

You don't know what you don't know. Everyone sing along...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir2hvKw5X_U&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

PackLeader said:


> You don't know what you don't know. Everyone sing along...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir2hvKw5X_U&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Do you live on Youtube just so you have something to post on so many threads?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Total Retriever Training 2nd Edition still includes stick fetch. I know that when I brought up the topic to Mike, he commented that stick fetch is still in the curriculum as he presents it. He suggests that one following his program still incorporate that step.

Bus turns 5 this Summer. So I'd imagine I'll be going through basics again sometime in the not too distant future. I'm a "never say 'never'" sort of person. But I expect that whenever I put another pup through basics, I'll follow the Lardy program and stick fetch. I don't see myself changing that. 

I'm repeating myself here. I just don't see where it (stick fetch) takes anything away. Maybe it does add something, maybe not. But for those of us who don't start multiple dogs per year, why not hedge your odds towards success and try to produce the best product you can the first time around?

Dex, if you're still reading, do you see anything detrimental that comes out of putting a dog through basics and including stick fetch? Or are you just writing that you believe it to be a holdover from the days when "off" or "high 6 plus" were the only two options on a collar? (and therefore with the use of the adjustable collar there are other ways to get the same result without the stick fetch step) I've seen you run dogs that you train and I know your basics are as solid as anyone out there.

Thanks to those participating for keeping this a positive discussion. This is a good chance for folks to exhange ideas and for some to learn. 

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Do you live on Youtube just so you have something to post on so many threads?


While there are many Packleader posts that I don't necessarily agree with, and while I've seen the likes of Howard and Kwiklabs ask specific questions of PL that remain unanswered, I did take the time to click the link.

The takeaway from the song he posted is "Why you gotta be so mean?"

I find that the tone of many responses and posts can really steer the direction of an otherwise productive discussion into a sometimes hateful and many times unproductive use of time and space.

How about we try to let this one be productive and useful? I'm trying to learn from it. I think Julie is trying to learn from it. I don't think Champ meant anything unkind.

Thanks, Chris


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Well, Chris, I was getting ready to post _my experience _with using a stick but then Packleader posted yet another of his Youtube video links, which was just one too many for me, I guess. He is certainly welcome to the forum with all his knowledge and experience in training for HT/FT, I've got dogs to train and a beautiful day not to waste. I hope you have a good one as well.


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

.


Easy there troops!! 

Remember, A house divided against it self cannot stand. 

How can you ever defeat the Amish if you can't get along with each other.





.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Kim,

It is a nice May Sunday, and a beautiful mother's day. It is definitely not a good use of time to let PL's ongoing posting of little pokes derail us. If we have value-adding content to post, we probably should not give PL the power to convert our otherwise positive intentions over to reactive responses.

Regarding PL's experience in HT/FT, he's been asked repeatedly. (Howard and Kwiklabs come to mind from the recent mile-long Milner thread) I believe that those who asked have chosen to just ignore the content and have clearly given up on seeking those answers.

Life's so busy for so many of us. Myself included. I try to let this resource self-moderate as much as possible. Vicky and Lainee are wonderful at helping in so many ways. So are the majority of those who use this resource.

RTF has had many cycles since it's beginnings in 1998. While folks can point at "trends", it's always cycled. Valuable contributors have come and gone. Some have chosen to spend their time doing other things. Some have departed their life as we knew them.

The best that we can do is appreciate and gain value from information that those who choose to take the time to share. If we feel it is worth our time, we can share too.

Peace everybody... When someone's internet snippiness gets your goat, how about taking a deep breath or two, force yourself to smile, and let your fingers issue a post that kills that offender with kindness.

Sincerely,  Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gosh, 

I guess I took too long to compose my reply and some other unpleasantness has crept in. 

Please folks, use the resource productively. We *can* have an occasional discussion that remains focused on learning and sharing and doesn't degrade into banter. My two kids were just fighting over a Poke'mon game this morning. I hear that same sound in my head when I read some of the posts in this thread.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Nice. Really nice. 

Dex-I wish you would post more, but I totally understand that you don't. Give Danette my best, I really enjoyed judging with her last year. I hope all is well down south for you and your family.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

I would like to make a point. A post started about whether to use stick fetch in a modern training program. Chris replied to the post with some intelligent ideas and gave his understanding of what Lardy had said to him in a personal conversation. Good stuff, I then replied with my point of view, and then did others on the subject. Then erins edge, and Melanie chimed in with and is direct proof from their replies they have no knowledge of the subject and started a side conversation about who knew what at who was who. The only intent of the replies of these two people were to cause discention between the folks sharing their ideas on stick fetch. If you look at most all posts you will see the first page talking about the subject and then it turns into adults bickering behind their computer screens. Folks don't be so predictable! I will chose not to reply but to read instead because I can predict what will happen! Erins edge and melanie will see by chris, and ed's reply that this is indeed used today, 2011 by very knowledgable dog people...if they choose to read and not talk!


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

I used the whip fetch as an integral part of my basic training program until i saw that Mike Lardy was actually going to accomplish what no other pro before him had ever done---train and compete with animated, obedient dogs; he wasn't quite there, but i could see him getting better ever year at the nationals. i could also see that my absolute obedience program was becoming obsolete. So, in order keep up, i had to leave a little more animation in my dogs, so, I cut the whip fetch from the program. the whip fetch is a great gauge for determining just how well a dog will handle pressure later on in life. although, i no longer train competitive dogs, i still use the whip fetch on some of my gun dogs that have a probelm with "fetch". With all the new technology we now have today, the whip fetch is not as necessary as it once was, but still a very powerful drill in the hands of a competent trainer.
good thread guys
GG


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Some very successful trainers still follow the progression of collar conditioning that Rex Carr taught and utilized including whip fetch, that technology has improved the equipment does not alter the program for some of us.


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

EdA said:


> Some very successful trainers still follow the progression of collar conditioning that Rex Carr taught and utilized including whip fetch, that technology has improved the equipment does not alter the program for some of us.


Yeah, but look how many posts you have so what could you know?


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> Yeah, but look how many posts you have so what could you know?


Again a perfect example of having no knowledge of the subject yet will use the opportunity to cause discention, thanks melanie, ie the number one offender!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I won't quote your post so you can edit it again. You and Darrin have something in common but now we know a little more about you.


Nancy,

Please be kind.

Everybody, please be kind.

I'm getting complaints from good, solid, longtime RTF users who are tired of the sniping over silly stuff.

It would really be nice to have some reasonable training exchange without the unkind stuff.

Please?

Thanks, Chris


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Nancy,
> 
> Please be kind.


Did you just single her out? Seriously?


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

I have a stick fetch opinion/question I am in the ear pinch stage of my FF. I am now following Lardy's trt 2nd edition witch does include stick fetch. HOWEVER, I am a new trainer and I was following the 10 min retriever method or better yet my interpretation of what I was reading. Therefore there were many holes in my basic obedience. No fault of the 10 min retriever at all it was just me. That being said my pup tends to react poorly to the heeling stick. I am afraid that if I do stick fetch I may be taking some steps backward.

I have done my best to rub and scratch and get my pup accustom to the stick but he is still a bit skittish. My real question is should I spend more time with ear pinch and make sure that the drive to pick up the bumper is such that the stick doesn’t faze him or should I proceed without stick fetch?

I will admit I am having some trouble with FF it is taking a long time. But I don’t want to turn this into another FF thread so maybe a few PMs would help with that.

Thanks for the help in advance.

Jonathan


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

I would recommend reviewing obedience with the stick,the stick is too useful to not use it throughout the dogs life.Try distracting the dog a bit so he's not focused on the stick,hold the stick behind your back,use your whistle for the sit command,it's a good time to introduce the whistle,and the loud blast is a good distraction.Just use really light taps with the stick until the dog is comfortable.


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

He is doing a bit better with the stick but the point I guess the point I was trying to make is I fear that stick fetch may send him back into a "fear" of the stick. I realized after the first time I used it that I may have ruined that useful tool for him.


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

If you think you can get the dog comfortable with the stick,then use it,if not,put it away for now,can always bring it out again when the dog is more mature.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

Chris it is hard to answer your question. I began working for a guy who was left handed who was very good with a stick. His timming and adjustability was amazing. Unfortunately God made me right handed so I was never coordinated enough to have the timing I felt necessary to be good with a stick. As for Mike's program, It is a 20 plus year old program. Now don't eveyone jump to conclusions. Mike has done more for this sport than anybody, and I mean anybody. But I also think that if Mike was using his program on a daily basis and putting dogs through the yard like he did when it was designed that there would be changes in it for the better. Now is stick fetch one of them, I can't say. I can say that out of the many new up and coming trainers that I know stick fetch is a thing of the past. Is it detrimental, I dout it very seriously. If you elected to skip stick fetch, stick fetch alone is not going to be the determing factor that brings one short of everyone elses expected goals.


Oh, by the way Champ, Nancy and Melanie definetly know what they are talking about. They might have been born yesterday but they stayed up all night studying.:razz:


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Thank you Dex. I hope you continue to come back because your imput is appreciated.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Nancy,
> 
> Please be kind.
> 
> ...


I would suggest a page for people that are serious trainers and want to learn from others. The most knowledgeable people in our sport will not post here because of the exact problem that arose with this thread. Every thread is one in the same when it comes to thoughts and ideas on training, it ends just like this one did. There was good information here, for a day or two. It's a shame, and we as members of the community should have say I what we will allow and not allow when it comes to posts and threads??


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

champ said:


> I would suggest a page for people that are serious trainers and want to learn from others. The most knowledgeable people in our sport will not post here because of the exact problem that arose with this thread. Every thread is one in the same when it comes to thoughts and ideas on training, it ends just like this one did. There was good information here, for a day or two. It's a shame, and we as members of the community should have say I what we will allow and not allow when it comes to posts and threads??


Just be kind. Please.

I don't think that adding a new RTF subforum to take the place of this RTF forum, so that experienced trainers will feel like posting here, will accomplish much if anything. I'm fully aware that many of the most experienced have zero interest in posting on this, or any other internet training board. Many of them are too busy to bother, and don't want to deal with the potential outfall. Plus they are getting paid to deliver results for client dogs.

I think that if we all chose to make a cultural shift back to a reasonable exchange of opinions, without the jabs and snipes, we could do it. 

Who's up for that?

Thanks, Chris


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Just be kind. Please.
> 
> I don't think that adding a new RTF subforum to take the place of this RTF forum, so that experienced trainers will feel like posting here, will accomplish much if anything. I'm fully aware that many of the most experienced have zero interest in posting on this, or any other internet training board. Many of them are too busy to bother, and don't want to deal with the potential outfall. Plus they are getting paid to deliver results for client dogs.
> 
> ...


county me in! My pup would be much less of a dog without the help of everyone here! Thanks for this great site!


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

GG said:


> I used the whip fetch as an integral part of my basic training program until i saw that Mike Lardy was actually going to accomplish what no other pro before him had ever done---train and compete with animated, obedient dogs; he wasn't quite there, but i could see him getting better ever year at the nationals. i could also see that my absolute obedience program was becoming obsolete. So, in order keep up, i had to leave a little more animation in my dogs, so, I cut the whip fetch from the program. the whip fetch is a great gauge for determining just how well a dog will handle pressure later on in life. although, i no longer train competitive dogs, i still use the whip fetch on some of my gun dogs that have a probelm with "fetch". With all the new technology we now have today, the whip fetch is not as necessary as it once was, but still a very powerful drill in the hands of a competent trainer.
> good thread guys
> GG


It's a pleasure to read great insight! I respect the same of Gonia's dogs, animated, stylish, and get the job done!!!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

rednek said:


> I would recommend reviewing obedience with the stick,the stick is too useful to not use it throughout the dogs life.


I'm as big a fan of heeling sticks as I am e-collars. I just get what I need in conditioning using stick to sit. Lots of good pressure conditioning done there, and more over the dog's career in general maintenace & line manner corrections with them. Using heeling sticks more often when the dog is at your side helps to prevent the over use of e-collars. 

Evan


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## jason4429 (May 29, 2010)

I used the stick fetch on my latest dog.It is a step that i hadn't used in the past,but it's one that i will be using in the future.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> Chris it is hard to answer your question. I began working for a guy who was left handed who was very good with a stick. His timming and adjustability was amazing. Unfortunately God made me right handed so I was never coordinated enough to have the timing I felt necessary to be good with a stick. As for Mike's program, It is a 20 plus year old program. Now don't eveyone jump to conclusions. Mike has done more for this sport than anybody, and I mean anybody. But I also think that if Mike was using his program on a daily basis and putting dogs through the yard like he did when it was designed that there would be changes in it for the better. Now is stick fetch one of them, I can't say. I can say that out of the many new up and coming trainers that I know stick fetch is a thing of the past. Is it detrimental, I dout it very seriously. If you elected to skip stick fetch, stick fetch alone is not going to be the determing factor that brings one short of everyone elses expected goals.
> 
> 
> Oh, by the way Champ, Nancy and Melanie definetly know what they are talking about. They might have been born yesterday but they stayed up all night studying.:razz:


Dex, thanks sincerely for taking the time to type the response.

I think that many times, the results produced with a trained retriever have as much to do with the dog itself as well as the skill of the trainer as anything.

I believe that an unskilled trainer could do his very best to emulate step-for-step, exactly what the successful pro does, with the exact same dog, and get drastically different results. 

Like lots of folks have written in the past, the program itself does not assure "quality control" on the execution of the training steps. 

I agree completely that a good trainer can easily modify a "program" significantly from dog-to-dog. He/she has the ability to read what's happening and regulate how much of what the dog needs to progress.

I seem to see many newer folks going "straight to the collar" early. I was feeling like the inclusion of the stick in the Lardy program may take the newer e-collar-using trainer and allow him to gradually ease the canine student into collar use. Perhaps the program will mean more with less opportunity for confusion and erosion of the dog's confidence.

The reality is that the trainer could botch stuff up with the stick fetch step too.

A good trainer is going to keep his/her eyes open and his dog sense aware. He'll read what the dog is telling him and adjust accordingly.

Thanks again Dex,

Chris


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

I didn't use stick fetch while following Lardy's sequence. 

My thoughts as an amatuer trainer is that my dog had learned during healing - with stick corrections - and walking fetch that the stick was an extension of my hand and that the merging of e-collar in the next few steps solidified the concept that the e-collar is ME doing the correcting. But I can understand using a whip because that pressure at a distince while in-route also reinforces that lesson without an e-collar (i.e., hey dog, it's still me here even while you are 5-7 yards out).

I suspect that Lardy and early trainers want to have that step of non-ecollar correction at a distance. 

I personally don't see the need as I believe dogs are smart enough to figure out it's you pressuring them at a distance with the e-collar because of all the work pressuring them (with e-collar) while "near" you.


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

PhilBernardi said:


> I didn't use stick fetch while following Lardy's sequence.
> 
> My thoughts as an amatuer trainer is that my dog had learned during healing - with stick corrections - and walking fetch that the stick was an extension of my hand and that the merging of e-collar in the next few steps solidified the concept that the e-collar is ME doing the correcting. But I can understand using a whip because that pressure at a distince while in-route also reinforces that lesson without an e-collar (i.e., hey dog, it's still me here even while you are 5-7 yards out).
> 
> ...



I am also using Lardy's as I previously posted. He talks about the use of Indirect pressure when correcting on a cast or any other issue you have from a distance. Indirect meaning instead of giving a burn or nick after the dog takes the wrong cast, the sequence is No Sit nick. Because you didn't CC to casting but you did CC to sit. And use this to not confuse the dog. 

With this philsophy the E collar could not be used in the same mannor a the stick to really speed up the dog to make a quick cast or fetch. Am I thinking right?

I would really like some feedback on this because I am not far from finishing ear pinch and moving on to walking fetch and stick fetch.

Thanks
Jonathan


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

FF is CC to fetch.

Later you will sit the dog in front of you and cast him back while using collar pressure.

That is when you add pressure to your cast, and hopefully build the same compulsion you would with stick fetch.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> Chris it is hard to answer your question. I began working for a guy who was left handed who was very good with a stick. His timming and adjustability was amazing. Unfortunately God made me right handed so I was never coordinated enough to have the timing I felt necessary to be good with a stick. As for Mike's program, It is a 20 plus year old program. Now don't eveyone jump to conclusions. Mike has done more for this sport than anybody, and I mean anybody. But I also think that if Mike was using his program on a daily basis and putting dogs through the yard like he did when it was designed that there would be changes in it for the better. Now is stick fetch one of them, I can't say. I can say that out of the many new up and coming trainers that I know stick fetch is a thing of the past. Is it detrimental, I dout it very seriously. If you elected to skip stick fetch, stick fetch alone is not going to be the determing factor that brings one short of everyone elses expected goals.


I agree with Dex on this one. I have a pup that was trained by Andy Attar. The guy who trained Lottie, Tank, etc etc, etc. I can say that Valor was not stick fetched. Dex is correct when he talks about the evolution of the collar having an effect on our training and basics. I also think that the Lean Mac Influence has had an effect, where you get retrievers with a lot of go, intelligence, but more senstive dogs (note: I did not say soft). This is a good thing IMHO. 

I think part of being a good dog trainer is being able to read the dog, and not take a cookie cutter approach to every animal. Leaving out stick fetch for some dogs, but resurrecting it for others would be optimal in my mind.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I can say that Valor was not stick fetched. Dex is correct when he talks about the evolution of the collar having an effect on our training and basics. I also think that the Lean Mac Influence has had an effect, where you get retrievers with a lot of go, intelligence, but more senstive dogs (note: I did not say soft). This is a good thing IMHO.
> 
> I think part of being a good dog trainer is being able to read the dog, and not take a cookie cutter approach to every animal. Leaving out stick fetch for some dogs, but resurrecting it for others would be optimal in my mind.


That is pretty much where I come from also. Good points.
Sensitive is not necessarily soft
Stick fetch is a sound technique, but not necessary for all dogs
Train the dog you're training (as opposed to each one as just another wiget)
Evan


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

This is an interesting discussion. I can see some benefit from stick fetch but can also see the point of view that it doesn't add much to the FF process.

Does everyone still use stick to pile? If so, what do you feel you gain from that? It seems to me that since the dog has already been CCed at this point and knows the commands, this would add even less value than it would in FF, since the dog already should know how to deal with collar pressure. It seems to me that even if you felt that stick fetch was important, you could more easily skip stick to pile and move on to FTP.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> I agree with Dex on this one. I have a pup that was trained by Andy Attar. The guy who trained Lottie, Tank, etc etc, etc. I can say that Valor was not stick fetched. Dex is correct when he talks about the evolution of the collar having an effect on our training and basics. I also think that the Lean Mac Influence has had an effect, where you get retrievers with a lot of go, intelligence, but more senstive dogs (note: I did not say soft). This is a good thing IMHO.
> 
> I think part of being a good dog trainer is being able to read the dog, and not take a cookie cutter approach to every animal. Leaving out stick fetch for some dogs, but resurrecting it for others would be optimal in my mind.


I agree, the sign of a good trainer is someone that can use a miltitude of different methods, and switch between the them in seconds. There all different and we must train them differently. I'll add that's my point of view, doesn't make me right!


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

DoubleHaul said:


> Does everyone still use stick to pile? If so, what do you feel you gain from that?


I was watching the "Stick to Pile" explanation used in Mike Lardy's program (I think) and I liked the idea the dog was learning how to "Beat" the stick, you know "hearing the sound" behind the dog as they roll to the pile from your side. Seemed to me to make a lot of sense and bring in an additional sense of direction towards the pile for the dog. Although I use Smartwork as the primary method to my madness, I decided with my young pup (high energy) to add the additional distraction of Stick Fetch and Stick to pile to the process. I think it certainly did not hurt to do it, in fact I think she enjoyed knowing she could beat the stick during Stick to pile, also as a distraction stick fetch only took a session or two to do. Was it worth it? I think so and I think for a beginner it can be a "Test" to see if you really have the tool of force fetch in your box of tools. IMHO.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

I need to make a serious correction to my prior post - please use a low burn on me. 

I mistook stick fetch for the force fetch using a whip while the dog is enroute to pile. My bad.

So, I have and do use stick fetch and definitely recommend its use. 

I do not use "whip fetch" to pile. 

My other comments remain as is. And I'll add that I like Lardy's comment about dogs learning that the stick is an extension of your hand (i.e., hand on ear during ear pinch), and then dogs learning that the e-collar is also an extension of your hand (you) as it is introduced - then substituted for most future pressuring - with stick.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> *I think part of being a good dog trainer is being able to read the dog, and not take a cookie cutter approach to every animal.* Leaving out stick fetch for some dogs, but resurrecting it for others would be optimal in my mind.


Worth repeating....I think this is the little nugget of information to take away from this thread....

FOM


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## Jonathan Maulden (Mar 27, 2011)

I guess that is my problem and one of the reasons I have been asking so many questions. I am not a "good trainer" not saying I am a bad one I am very pleased with where my boy is at this point I'm just saying that I am learning to read my dog as I believe he is learning to read me. We are both new. The cookie cutter step by step aproach is all I have for now however I am learning and adjusting as I go. The RTF has been on of the best tools for me by the way!:razz:


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

I think the main limitation to stick fetch (apart from possible learner trainer error) is that a stick is only so long....and dogs do not generalise well.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Aussie said:


> I think the main limitation to stick fetch (apart from possible learner trainer error) is that a stick is only so long....and dogs do not generalise well.


One of my takeaways from Stick fetch was that part of the step involved swatting it on the ground behind the dog as the dog departed online to the bumper. This was helping to create the compulsion to go, and it seemed to also help the dog gain confidence by learning that he/she WAS beating the stick by getting out of dodge when sent and moving forward ahead of the sound of the stick.

To me, it seemed to reinforce that going as sent, when sent, was a good thing and it allowed pup to avoid beat the stick.

Chris


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> One of my takeaways from Stick fetch was that part of the step involved swatting it on the ground behind the dog as the dog departed online to the bumper. This was helping to create the compulsion to go, and it seemed to also help the dog gain confidence by learning that he/she WAS beating the stick by getting out of dodge when sent and moving forward ahead of the sound of the stick.
> 
> To me, it seemed to reinforce that going as sent, when sent, was a good thing and it allowed pup to avoid beat the stick.
> 
> Chris


O no, O no, O no, O no.....never visiting RTF again, so embarrassed. Especially at night/morning (currently Thursday 12.56am here) O no. 

Title of thread should have been walking fetch!!!!

O the shame of it all.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Aussie said:


> O no, O no, O no, O no.....never visiting RTF again, so embarrassed. Especially at night/morning (currently Thursday 12.56am here) O no.
> 
> Title of thread should have been walking fetch!!!!
> 
> O the shame of it all.


Aussie, I have to admit, reading this thread I was wondering if the topic was supposed to be "stick to pile" or "walking stick fetch."

I really like the "stick to pile" procedure. I have a really long horse buggy whip with little strings on the end. It whistles like the dickens when you swat it. The dogs definitely know when you've missed their tushes with the whip. I've always had good luck with getting the dogs to really move out and try to beat the whip, it seems to get the message across really well. I could be wrong but I think it's a lot easier than getting a dog to think it's beat the correction from a collar if you went straight to that on "force to pile." On STP, once they really dig back on with the stick, I'll start trying to time the stick and collar correction so they are simultaneous, then I remove the stick and use just the collar. I just like the added link in the chain! ;-)

I have mixed feelings on "walking stick fetch."


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Buzz said:


> Aussie, I have to admit, reading this thread I was wondering if the topic was supposed to be "stick to pile" or "walking stick fetch."
> 
> I really like the "stick to pile" procedure. I have a really long horse buggy whip with little strings on the end. It whistles like the dickens when you swat it. The dogs definitely know when you've missed their tushes with the whip. I've always had good luck with getting the dogs to really move out and try to beat the whip, it seems to get the message across really well. I could be wrong but I think it's a lot easier than getting a dog to think it's beat the correction from a collar if you went straight to that on "force to pile." On STP, once they really dig back on with the stick, I'll start trying to time the stick and collar correction so they are simultaneous, then I remove the stick and use just the collar. I just like the added link in the chain! ;-)
> 
> I have mixed feelings on "walking stick fetch."


I understand your point but in my mind, the whip used in any drill where you are teaching thedog to escape the pressure on fetch means the same whether it's stick fetch, ladder fetch, 
or fetch to pile, ie. The same thought or idea is transferred to the dog in these different drills. IMHO


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

champ said:


> I understand your point but in my mind, the whip used in any drill where you are teaching thedog to escape the pressure on fetch means the same whether it's stick fetch, ladder fetch,
> or fetch to pile, ie. The same thought or idea is transferred to the dog in these different drills. IMHO


Anytime you're doing any of that, the over arching theme of it is pressure conditioning. Each has a skill focus, but conditioning to pressure formalizes them, and causes the dog to respond more reliably in the presence of distraction.

Evan


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Evan said:


> Anytime you're doing any of that, the over arching theme of it is pressure conditioning. Each has a skill focus, but conditioning to pressure formalizes them, and causes the dog to respond more reliably in the presence of distraction.
> 
> Evan


Do you think the dog is thinking/using the same trained thought/skillmin the different excercises? I hope I interpreted you correctly, but I think you are saying that through different drills that are similar and that use the same trained response the dog gets more reliable? That makes sense and gives me a different outlook than before. The dog is such a picture oriented animal that what you are talking about makes complete sense. Am I on track??


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

champ said:


> Do you think the dog is thinking/using the same trained thought/skillmin the different excercises? I hope I interpreted you correctly, but I think you are saying that through different drills that are similar and that use the same trained response the dog gets more reliable? That makes sense and gives me a different outlook than before. The dog is such a picture oriented animal that what you are talking about makes complete sense. Am I on track??


If that is the case couldn't you just do say ladder fetch in different places and environments rather than 3-5 different drills in the same yard?? Maybe i am way off tack??


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

RE: dog's generalizing 

My limited experience (i.e., anecdotal evidence) suggests that dogs can and do generalize, but maybe not about the same things at the same rate of learning. 

"generalizing" means to me the ability to recognize differences in context but respond the same to the same stimulus. This is different than the normal use of the term in psychology (where differing stimuli will result in the same response - which btw, our dogs also behave as such <stick or ecollar or ear pinch are prime examples of differing stimuli getting the same response>).

As a simple example, my lab knows what "kennel" means when we are in the house; when the tailgate is down on the truck; when the truck door is open; or when we are in the field with her Mutt Hut. She's applying it in the context she's in. She's generalized the command.

Dogs generalize when they've taken your "back" command whether they are immediately in front of you; or 100 yards away on land; or 200 yards away in water while treading in lilly pads. 

p.s. I'll let you know what happens when the truck door is open AND the tailgate is down. ;-) I suspect she'll go for whichever one she's closest too. LOL


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wow! Brings back some memories!


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