# Proven Chessie Studs?



## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Looking to have my 3yo HRCH Bitch bred and trying to do all of my homework and cover all the bases as to what all is out there stud wise in the Chessie World. Within the next week or two I hope to have all her test and health clearances taken care of and hopefully I'll be ready to get a breeding lined up. So for all you chessie people what all is out there as far as PROVEN studs? I'm new to breeding so just trying to be thorough. Any suggestions? BTW I am not opposed to driving or AI. Thanks


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Be a lot easier to know her breeding and DM status.
Also what you are looking for in the way of pups - gun dogs, show dogs, hunt test or field trial or dual or ? 
Also what characteristics does your dog have a lot of and what characteristics is it lacking or could use some help with. ie. need more stamina, better marking, better attention, better memory, ....

You can get an idea of what is available from these websites: 
http://www.amchessieclub.org/ads/stud.php
http://teamchesapeake.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/3641041781
http://www.chessieinfo.net/stud-dogs.htm

Also, look back at the test/trials you have been to, any dogs there look good to you? Check out the sire of those that looked good and see if they are still available.

You can also search Lisa's database for proven studs:
http://www.chessieinfo.net/search-database-2.htm 
enter **** in the search string and set the search field to "pre title"

Hope that helps

T. Mac


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Good post T Mac!!!! 

Also talk with the breeders that have been breeding the type of dog you're looking for, for a very long time. They can offer you a wealth of insight. Just make sure you have a cold one next to you when you're making those calls. You'll be on the phone a while. 

Angie


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Not many straws left but I would give anything now to have a Curry pup.........Call John Ackerman......

Pm me if you make this X......would love to see your girls pedigree


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Go West young man....well NW to be more exact toward Idaho and Linda Harger and Fireweed Kennels

http://www.fireweedchesapeakes.com/html/stud_dogs.html


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Also a good pick.. Jim


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Gunner 

A few folks on RTF have his pups....They may chime in.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

It's hard in chessies to find a proven stud. Yes Curry has some pups running trials that are QAA. Chester is the only FC male but all his breedings are to young to tell. Julie Cole has a very nice male and then there is The Knapps male that is a proven stud. Comet is out of that male. Haven't seen many Gunner pups running but he is a nice dog. But maybe someone around your area who has chessies can give you some input. All these breedngs will be artifical and you might want aa natural for your first dogs breeding.


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks for the replys and I've gotten some really nice leads on studs through PM's. Here's the pedigree for my bitch. I'm not sure about whats safe as far as breeding within the same gene pool... How far does one need to go back? Defintely breeding gun dogs/hunt test dogs. Thanks again and any advice or suggestions are appreciated. Sorry but if I come off as ignorant it's because I am :razz:

Dam








By mattduncan82 at 2012-06-30

Sire








By mattduncan82 at 2012-06-30


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Thanks for posting Koda's pedigree. It gives a much better understanding of your chore in looking for a stud. 

The most important thing for you right now is to get her DM status checked. Go to the OFA website and order the DM DNA test kit. http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/dm.html
Be aware that based on her pedigree that she has a better than 50% chance of being a carrier. Looking at her dam's side of the pedigree; Bell was untested but Bell's sire was was at risk and Bell's dam, Tana, was untested but was from Tiger who was afflicted so Tana must be at least a carrier. Hence Bell must be at least a carrier and very good probability of being at risk. With the lack of health clearances in Koda's pedigree especially on her sire's side it is hard to get a good grasp of a health pedigree. So Koda may even come back as at risk for DM. For a link to Tiger's story and videos on DM got to this website: http://www.chesapeakebayretriever.info/dm.htm

So much for the good news. I've tried to find some way to sugar coat this but cant find the words to do it. 
You will need to look very hard at what it is you are attempting to gain in breeding your bitch. Assuming that at best she has a DM carrier status, you will be severely limited in your breeding options as you will need to find a DM clear male. And DM clear males with a strong field pedigree are fairly hard to find. Odds are you will not find one in your general area. Even without this criteria in today's Chessie world the best pedigree you will find for a live breeding will be a Ch/MH or maybe a Ch/QAA dog. Keep in mind that even with her HRCH and if all other health clearances are good, Koda will be a tough sell with her pedigree and a DM carrier status (or worse) when you are trying to find a high caliber stud. So when you do find a stud there is a good chance you will either need to ship your dog to the stud or do an AI. If she is due in soon, heat limitations may limit/preclude shipping her based on airline weather restrictions either on your end or on the stud's end so you will be limited to an AI. With costs for all the health tests, AI or shipping fees, stud fee, etc. you are looking at a breeding/whelping cost of $3-4000 depending on stud fee and no unforeseen circumstances (c section, etc). Factoring in the whelp and post whelp care you will have close to $5000 invested in this litter. 

Now the hard part, how much do you expect to get for your pups? Depending again on stud (assuming a Ch/MH or Ch/QAA dog) and a DM carrier clearances, and today's economy, and assuming all her other health clearances are normal, you are probably looking at the $6-800 range for a pup. Picking a stud with a lessor pedigree will further lower you price expectation per pup. This will result in you needing a litter of at least 6 to break even. This is very close to normal litter size for chessies. What do you do if you only produce a litter of 3? Or if she resorbs the litter at 5 weeks? Or you encounter any of a host of other calamities that might and do occur? (Ask me what I spent, both financially and emotionally, on an AI breeding to a DC that produced a litter of 1 delivered by c-section yielding a pup that I had to put down by age 2.) 

Please believe me when I tell you that if you are planning this breeding looking for a free pup, you will be better off just finding a good breeding with good health clearances and pedigree and buying a pup. 

T. Mac


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Maybe call Terry Brousseau 2254131258


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

T.Mac thank you. I didn't have the guts to tell him. I hope he appreciates your honesty with him. T.Mac my hats off to you.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

T. Mac said it well...listen to his advice.


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Tmac- thanks for your very informative post. I already have the DM test and this coming week it will be getting done along with eic, hips, and elbows. I have seen a couple clear dogs that I wouldnt mind doing a breeding with and there is a very impressive clear 500pt+ male located very close. Obviosly I havent put a price on pups yet due to Kodas testing isnt done and I havent comitted to any particular stud. That being said I have no intentions of getting rich off a litter. What it really boils down to is right now everything is riding on the outcome off her DM test. Thank you for the advice. Thats why this thread is here.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

T.Mac, although I agree with 99% of your input on this thread, I would disagree with your statement "The most important thing for you right now is to get her DM status checked." Are you saying DM now trumps eyes and hips? If so, our narrow gene pool just got a whole lot narrower on a condition that testing still cannot prove a conclusive outcome. Just my opinion, as there are many on this topic. PM me if you'd like.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Andy Symons said:


> T.Mac, although I agree with 99% of your input on this thread, I would disagree with your statement "The most important thing for you right now is to get her DM status checked." Are you saying DM now trumps eyes and hips? If so, our narrow gene pool just got a whole lot narrower on a condition that testing still cannot prove a conclusive outcome. Just my opinion, as there are many on this topic. PM me if you'd like.


I think you're taking T Macs post a little out of context. I read it as him assuming the eyes, hips and lets not forget elbows were done all ready. Which are your usual standard tests that everyone needs to do before breeding. Though I do see not as many chessie folks get their dogs elbows done as the lab people do. Which I think is a mistake.

Another good post T Mac.

Matt why not give Carol Anderson a call? She can help you out and knows your dogs pedigree.

Angie


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

If Ontario is not to far. Once all tests are done Larry wood from Windsor ( Canadian side by Detroit) or Henry goeree ( skeetercreek ) chessies could likely help you out. I know larrys dog get down your way running HRC once in awhile. Guts down that way will know him/ his dogs. Wayne dibbley ran them.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Not really my breed but names that pop-up time after time in the stats
FC Colonial Outer Banks Winchester MH (Chester)
Atlas goes to War Larry Sarek
Fireweed in ID


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

Angie, sorry I read it differently. I try not to "assume" too much, but yes, I would think the hips and eyes were done!! The majority of the "context" in that post was about DM.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Andy Symons said:


> Angie, sorry I read it differently. I try not to "assume" too much, but yes, I would think the hips and eyes were done!! The majority of the "context" in that post was about DM.


That is sort of how I read it as well. The DM test should be used in consideration although, should not be an end all for a breeding. If one stives to breed a clear x clear on everything we'll not have a single decent Chessie left. Our DM affected and carrier dogs have brought WAY too much to the table to be written off so easily. Weighing the merits and OVERALL quality of what the dog is passing along is of upmost importance. Generally speaking, I'd be willing to put a bet down that says that the overwhelming majority of our BEST field dogs are at minimum DM carriers. Are there exceptions? yes. Are there a lot of exceptions? no. 

Too many breeders are using the DM status now as a scare tactic to unknowing buyers who don't fully understand neither the testing or, the disease. I've heard a breeder telling a person they shouldn't buy puppies who "have DM" and the only way to be safe is to buy a puppy from parents who are both DM Clear. People are using "half truths" because they are breeding two DM Clear dogs and not giving the new potential owners a decent understanding of how DM can be passed along and the differences between affected / carrier / clear........ This kind of misinformation is a detriment to the breed and giving new Chesapeake owners a start on the wrong foot. 

With that being said, should someone be breeding a DM affected x DM affected? HELL NO>


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> That is sort of how I read it as well. The DM test should be used in consideration although, should not be an end all for a breeding. If one stives to breed a clear x clear on everything we'll not have a single decent Chessie left. Our DM affected and carrier dogs have brought WAY too much to the table to be written off so easily. Weighing the merits and OVERALL quality of what the dog is passing along is of upmost importance. Generally speaking, I'd be willing to put a bet down that says that the overwhelming majority of our BEST field dogs are at minimum DM carriers. Are there exceptions? yes. Are there a lot of exceptions? no.
> 
> Too many breeders are using the DM status now as a scare tactic to unknowing buyers who don't fully understand neither the testing or, the disease. I've heard a breeder telling a person they shouldn't buy puppies who "have DM" and the only way to be safe is to buy a puppy from parents who are both DM Clear. People are using "half truths" because they are breeding two DM Clear dogs and not giving the new potential owners a decent understanding of how DM can be passed along and the differences between affected / carrier / clear........ This kind of misinformation is a detriment to the breed and giving new Chesapeake owners a start on the wrong foot.
> 
> With that being said, should someone be breeding a DM affected x DM affected? HELL NO>


I couldn't agree more.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Andy Symons said:


> Angie, sorry I read it differently. I try not to "assume" too much, but yes, I would think the hips and eyes were done!! The majority of the "context" in that post was about DM.


True,,,, it's a hot topic in the breed. Just like EIC is in labradors. In time it will calm down.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> That is sort of how I read it as well. The DM test should be used in consideration although, should not be an end all for a breeding. If one stives to breed a clear x clear on everything we'll not have a single decent Chessie left. Our DM affected and carrier dogs have brought WAY too much to the table to be written off so easily. Weighing the merits and OVERALL quality of what the dog is passing along is of upmost importance. Generally speaking, I'd be willing to put a bet down that says that the overwhelming majority of our BEST field dogs are at minimum DM carriers. Are there exceptions? yes. Are there a lot of exceptions? no.
> 
> Too many breeders are using the DM status now as a scare tactic to unknowing buyers who don't fully understand neither the testing or, the disease. I've heard a breeder telling a person they shouldn't buy puppies who "have DM" and the only way to be safe is to buy a puppy from parents who are both DM Clear. People are using "half truths" because they are breeding two DM Clear dogs and not giving the new potential owners a decent understanding of how DM can be passed along and the differences between affected / carrier / clear........ This kind of misinformation is a detriment to the breed and giving new Chesapeake owners a start on the wrong foot.
> 
> With that being said, should someone be breeding a DM affected x DM affected? HELL NO>


I don't think that's where T Mac was going with his post. DM was the focus but I see him trying to educate and give some realistic scenarios to the outcome of the litter and it's sale if Matt should decide to breed.

I'm all about breeding carriers. So you're preaching to the choir there.

Angie


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I didn't see it that way because I'm pretty sure I have a decent understanding of where T-mac comes from although, folks that don't know "us" as well may not see it that way...


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Just to be clear. All testing will be done this coming week. I already have the DM kit along with that she will be getting hips and elbows done through ofa, EIC test, and cerf.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I am not a breeder but I would do hips and elbows first. Those results if good then test eye, EIC & DM. Bad hips you may not want to breed. Save some money.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Going to go out on a limb and say that Mike owns a very, very nice Chessie male in Larry. I've seen him run and train numerous times and he's a wonderful dog. Talented, great temperment and super working attitude. 

M


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

Times 2!!! What Miriam said! MH and QAA and running AA stakes! Mike, I hope you are ok with the recommendation?


Chris


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Matt Duncan said:


> Just to be clear. All testing will be done this coming week. I already have the DM kit along with that she will be getting hips and elbows done through ofa, EIC test, and cerf.


You should add PRA to the alphabet soup. It can be done by "parentage".

Breeding, picking puppies and genetics are all gambles. 
Thank God for breeders. They allow us buyers to do the easy and the cheapist part. Buy a puppy!

Tim


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> That is sort of how I read it as well. The DM test should be used in consideration although, should not be an end all for a breeding. If one stives to breed a clear x clear on everything we'll not have a single decent Chessie left. Our DM affected and carrier dogs have brought WAY too much to the table to be written off so easily. Weighing the merits and OVERALL quality of what the dog is passing along is of upmost importance. Generally speaking, I'd be willing to put a bet down that says that the overwhelming majority of our BEST field dogs are at minimum DM carriers. Are there exceptions? yes. Are there a lot of exceptions? no.
> 
> Too many breeders are using the DM status now as a scare tactic to unknowing buyers who don't fully understand neither the testing or, the disease. I've heard a breeder telling a person they shouldn't buy puppies who "have DM" and the only way to be safe is to buy a puppy from parents who are both DM Clear. People are using "half truths" because they are breeding two DM Clear dogs and not giving the new potential owners a decent understanding of how DM can be passed along and the differences between affected / carrier / clear........ This kind of misinformation is a detriment to the breed and giving new Chesapeake owners a start on the wrong foot.
> 
> With that being said, should someone be breeding a DM affected x DM affected? HELL NO>


The answer to your question is as you say HELL NO *BUT* the question you should be asking is "should you breed carrier to carrier or at risk to carrier?" From my status point even the potential of producing 25% afflicted (Carrier to carrier) can be too much and would require major offsetting criteria in the pedigree. Items I do not see in the pedigree that Matt provided. And again please note there is a big difference in "afflicted" and "at risk".

About the only thing one can devine with respect to health status based on the pedigrees Matt provided is the DM status of Matt's bitch - that she has a very high probability of being a DM carrier and very possibly DM at risk. Thus, again based on pedigree analysis, DM status of the stud becomes what should be the rate limiting step assuming all else comes up normal. The stud must be a clear if you do not want to produce any at risk pups. And at $65 for the DM test, it is the cheapest test out there. Perhaps if the DM test comes back "At Risk" Matt would have second thoughts about this breeding. There is not enough data in the pedigree to make any other assumptions as far as hips or eyes or any other characteristic. 

Paul, you just bred Kaie to Rebel, which looks to be a very good breeding with great potential. Perhaps you can reflect a bit on your stud selection process BUT in this case base your considerations on if Kaie were a DM carrier rather than the DM clear that she is. If this were the case I suspect you would have selected a different stud dog. Plus with a DM carrier status I'd bet you would have had a very hard time convincing Rebel's owners to consent to the breeding. With a "clear" bitch you have "carte blanche" in picking just about any sire. However, the more carrier statuses your bitch has, the greater the restrictions become on that breeding pool. With a DM carrier bitch looking for a good field pedigree stud is difficult as there are only 5-6 DM clear stud dogs out there. If you know of more let me know because my DM carrier bitch is due in next month. 

The intent of my post to Matt was to suggest that if he is pursuing this breeding in order to get a new pup, that if he were to take the $3-400 for OFA films, $200 for the Optigen test, $50-60 for Cerf,stud fee, etc. he would have a enough to purchase a new pup with good to excellent pedigree that should be DM clear and PRA clear by parentage. Heck, he could even buy one of your pups and get change back!;-) If he were pursuing this breeding to make $$ the probability is that he will spend much more than he makes. 

Perhaps my previous post was more slanted toward this criteria as it is what is forefront in my thought processes as of late? But it is the same thought process that Matt or any other carrier status bitch owner should go through in trying to find the right stud. The hardest part of the breeding process is to recognize the flaws in your own dog and to try to find a mate who will offset (or at least not compound) those flaws. 

PLEASE, everyone who reads this, note that every dog has flaws. The purpose of ethical breeding is to try to minamize these flaws as much as it is to maximize the desired traits. All breedings are a gamble, you are just trying to maximize your odds. 

T. Mac


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

T. Mac- I don't know where you got the idea that I want to breed my bitch to get a pup for myself but that is not the case. I will not be breeding to anything other than DM clear studs reguardless of how my bitches results come back. There are enough good clear studs around for me not to. The idea reguarding my bitches pedigee is too soft to bother breeding is absurd IMO. This is not the labrador world and our gene pool is pretty small. I do understand why I need a stud with a strong pedigree to make up for what my bitches pedigree is lacking to taylor to folks that shop pedigrees rather than puppies. I know neither my bitches sire or dam were titled in any way they also never ran any test or trials, both dogs (owned by the same guy) are legit gun dogs and are definatley capable of passing an HRC finished test. Looking at current breedings everything is focused on this stud or that, not very many litters out there offering a bitch that is more than a SH most being JH or not titled at all. Buying a pup is a crap shoot of what you are going to end up with reguardless of titles in a pedigree. In a breed that is not watered down to extent of other retriever breeds this is obviously not as big of a concern. For example- My bitch with her so called weak pedigree has breezed through training and breezed through every test she's seen. Koda is very eager to please, a good marker, a team player, has an amazing temperment, and I couldn't ask for more out of a gundog/hunt test dog. From what I have gathered from you, with Koda coming from her pedigree I have a miracle dog and should probably start playing the lottery. Correct me if I took you the wrong way. That being said I do appreciate some of your advice. My main concern is obviously healthy puppies. So thats where I'll start. BTW not looking to get rich off of a litter and if I was worried about losing money on dogs I wouldn't be playing the game.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

T. Mac said:


> Now the hard part, how much do you expect to get for your pups? Depending again on stud (assuming a Ch/MH or Ch/QAA dog) and a DM carrier clearances, and today's economy, and assuming all her other health clearances are normal, you are probably looking at the $6-800 range for a pup. Picking a stud with a lessor pedigree will further lower you price expectation per pup. This will result in you needing a litter of at least 6 to break even. This is very close to normal litter size for chessies. What do you do if you only produce a litter of 3? Or if she resorbs the litter at 5 weeks? Or you encounter any of a host of other calamities that might and do occur? (Ask me what I spent, both financially and emotionally, on an AI breeding to a DC that produced a litter of 1 delivered by c-section yielding a pup that I had to put down by age 2.)
> T. Mac


Not sure where you are getting these prices from. Thor is DM at risk but has all other clearances and was just a MH and he sired 4 litters over the past year and all the pups sold for $1,000. He also has a couple titled offspring. Only 1 bitch he was bred to had a title and she has a senior title. 
Now my Graicie was just a Senior hunter and she is DM at Risk. Thor is her sire and her dam doesnt have a title for 3 generations. She has 2 titled offspring from her first breeding. I got $1300 a pup when I bred her to a clear MH *** and $1300 a pup when I bred her to a carrier MH. Now Gracie has her MH and people are waiting for me to breed her again. They dont care who I breed her too or the DM status they want a pup. She will not be bred till fall 2013 the earliest. I kept a pup from my Gracie X Scout Breeding a At risk to carrier breeding and still havent DM tested her yet.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Matt, I commend you for doing your research and sounds like you are well aware of both the breed's health and genetic problems as well as the small gene pool. It sounds like you have a very nice female worth breeding--if I liked a bitch and how she worked and liked the sire she was bred to, I would not let her pedigree dissuade me as chances are with Chesapeakes, quite a few of them might've been very good working dogs even if on paper they have no titles or health clearances. Far too many Chesapeakes, especially the females, are too soft to train to the higher levels. And, OK, I'll say it....breeding a female because you want one of her pups is, in my opinion, the #1 reason to breed.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Right now there are plenty of good breedings out there, You need to look. Chester FC (carrier) to Minsi MH (clear) etc. Comet has been breed. You only have to look. The Shaws have a female Stevie QAA looking to breed her soon. Wonderful female.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

DM status is one of those things you need to know....but basing breeding decisions on that alone is short-sighted. While it needs to be on the radar, it's easy enough to breed around. As for the pedigree on the bitch, one of the things I like about the breed is that you've got a pretty good shot at a good all-around dog with pretty much any lines with a solid history of health clearances on hips, CERF, PRA, elbows. The bitch having an HRCH is certainly a plus, and a mating to a DM clear stud should give you a nice litter of pups. And depending on what stud you use, the price point for the pups should start at around 1000. Around here, a $600 Chessie pup is a backyard breeder/newspaper puppy with no titles and maybe hips and eyes at best for health clearances.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

moscowitz said:


> Right now there are plenty of good breedings out there, You need to look. Chester FC (carrier) to Minsi MH (clear) etc. Comet has been breed. You only have to look. The Shaws have a female Stevie QAA looking to breed her soon. Wonderful female.


and the average person will not have a shot at these pups. chester and minsi litter was pretty much sold out to a select few the breeding took place. I am sure is Stevie is bred the same will go for that. 
The minsi and chester breedeing produced 4 clear pupies and 4 carrier pups and 1 has to be redone. The people getting the pups dont want to know the dm status until after they have decided what pup they want. 

How is that plenty of good breedings? You just named 2 that actually have pups and neither one was adverticed anywhere. Whenever there is a good chessie field breeding you have to be in the know to get a pup or they are all gone well before the litter is whelped.


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## Jim Imbertson (Apr 1, 2012)

I think CurSan's Cutter is DM clear, but best to check with Sandy.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

moscowitz said:


> .... Haven't seen many Gunner pups running but he is a nice dog.....




thats my pups Daddy!
I am happy.
DM clear


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## ze6464 (Jun 25, 2010)

If you are willing to drive to Florida. Carol Cassidy and the Luthy have very nice chessies. Do what you want to do with your dog she is your dog. I would focus on breeding to a sire that is titled in UKC since your dog is titled in Ukc.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

No, T. I would not breed an at risk to a carrier. It is irresponsible breeding IMO. Sure, if people aren't educated they'll buy the pups because they don't know any better. 

If I had a high level, very special dog..... Something above a MH x JH/SH breeding, I would think "if" I had years and years of experience breeding and running dogs like a few people who we all know, I would say breeding a dog which was a carrier x carrier or even carrier x at risk "MIGHT" be acceptable. I say this with a very strong feeling that the person doing the breeding would need to have years of experience with the dogs and years of field trial success to know that what he/she might be breeding was "that special" and needed to be bred to contribute to the gene pool. 

There are way too many MH /SH dogs which are clear or only carriers to use as a stud than chance breeding any at-risk dogs x carrier dogs. I don't think that is responsible.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

j towne said:


> ..... Whenever there is a good chessie field breeding you have to be in the know to get a pup or they are all gone well before the litter is whelped.


isnt that true for any breed?


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## Scott R. (Mar 13, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> isnt that true for any breed?


True but good Chessie breeding seems to be much more elusive. As a newcomer to the Chessie world a few months back I was hopelessly lost until Julie R. came to my rescue.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Scott R. said:


> True but good Chessie breeding seems to be much more elusive. As a newcomer to the Chessie world a few months back I was hopelessly lost until Julie R. came to my rescue.



Nothing elusive about it, you'll just be on a waiting list like everybody else for anything of significant FT x FT breeding. What is missed here? Folks active in FT see a FT dog working, say a young female running trials before she's even QAA'd. If they are in the market, they'll be talking to the young dogs' owner and express serious interest and get on an "unofficial" waiting list before a stud has even been chosen. Poof, first litter is sold. All of a sudden, this same dog becomes an AFC and all of a sudden, everybody and their brother who's "now" interested but, before never had a clue because they don't follow trials wants to get on a waiting list.....waiting list is now three litters deep which might be unlikely the bitch ever has three more litters because she's still running FT's..... 

Nothing elusive or secretive. You just have to be watching what is going on around you if you want something like that.... ACC puts out a publication of every FT placement by a Chessie. It's a good place to go if you'd like to get in on that type of information early and start following dogs you can't just go down the street to see run a trial.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> No, T. I would not breed an at risk to a carrier. It is irresponsible breeding IMO. Sure, if people aren't educated they'll buy the pups because they don't know any better.
> 
> If I had a high level, very special dog..... Something above a MH x JH/SH breeding, I would think "if" I had years and years of experience breeding and running dogs like a few people who we all know,* I would say breeding a dog which was a carrier x carrier or even carrier x at risk "MIGHT" be acceptable. I say this with a very strong feeling that the person doing the breeding would need to have years of experience with the dogs and years of field trial success to know that what he/she might be breeding was "that special" and needed to be bred to contribute to the gene pool. *
> 
> There are way too many MH /SH dogs which are clear or only carriers to use as a stud than *chance breeding any at-risk dogs x carrier dogs. I don't think that is responsible.*


I agree that breeding an affected, (lets call it what it is shall we), to a carrier or a carrier to carrier would be all right if the breeder really knew their dogs and *were willing to cull the affecteds. To do anything else is irresponsible.*

I attempted to do a carrier x carrier breeding sometime ago, knowing darn well that was what I was going to have to do. It didn't take thank goodness. I now know I don't have the stomach for such things. But I *will NOT* condemn someone who does do this type of breeding.

Angie


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Angie B said:


> I agree that breeding an affected, (lets call it what it is shall we), to a carrier or a carrier to carrier would be all right if the breeder really knew their dogs and *were willing to cull the affecteds. To do anything else is irresponsible.*
> 
> I attempted to do a carrier x carrier breeding sometime ago, knowing darn well that was what I was going to have to do. It didn't take thank goodness. I now know I don't have the stomach for such things. But I *will NOT* condemn someone who does do this type of breeding.
> 
> Angie



Angie, I agree with you. Dm is a very highly debated subject with a clear divide as to who accepts what science. As the so called expert geneticists say it should be used as a tool not an exclude r. Until they know more to do so is has the potential to do as much harm as the DM itself. We in the chessie world are split in two camps the out with the lepers and the lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. I do not think we should breed on a whim but if it compliments the bitch and you do not have a better fit then you breed and over the next few gen you work towards clear status.To rid DM is a multi year process not two generations so include all diversity and make smart choices and in time we will be where we all want healthy workable chessies that we know and love. JMO and we all have them


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Angie B said:


> I agree that breeding an affected, (lets call it what it is shall we), to a carrier or a carrier to carrier would be all right if the breeder really knew their dogs and *were willing to cull the affecteds. \*


*

How would you cull the affected? The disease doesn't come about until 7-8yrs approximately retiring age, until there is actually disease all dogs are only "at risk" 

Unless my understanding of DM is wrong; genetically You have clear>carrier>at risk (never shows, no disease)<at risk (affected shows disease), in some breeds there are even reported cases of individuals diagnosed with DM that carry no copy of the supposed affector gene, who are genetically clear. While a useful tool, until a test can absolutely diagnosis a condition it's results need to be taken with a grain of salt. Breeders know a lot more about the character of their lines than what can be diagnosis with an unreliable test, most keep excellent records, so if they have a few (at risk) or (carrier) individuals from several generations, who have never shown or produced a positive case of DM. They probably feel pretty safe in their breeding decisions on whether or not to breed (carrier or at risk) to each other. They've put the time in. On the other hand a breeder who knows of a case of DM in their lines they might be more picky in their choices of clear breedings.*


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> How would you cull the affected? The disease doesn't come about until 7-8yrs approximately retiring age, until there is actually disease all dogs are only "at risk"
> 
> Unless my understanding of DM is wrong; genetically You have clear>carrier>at risk (never shows, no disease)<at risk (affected shows disease), in some breeds there are even reported cases of individuals diagnosed with DM that carry no copy of the supposed affector gene, who are genetically clear. While a useful tool, until a test can absolutely diagnosis a condition it's results need to be taken with a grain of salt. Breeders know a lot more about the character of their lines than what can be diagnosis with an unreliable test, most keep excellent records, so if they have a few (at risk) or (carrier) individuals from several generations, who have never shown or produced a positive case of DM. They probably feel pretty safe in their breeding decisions on whether or not to breed (carrier or at risk) to each other. They've put the time in. On the other hand a breeder who knows of a case of DM in their lines they might be more picky in their choices of clear breedings.


Agree with you x2,


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> How would you cull the affected?....


buy the DM cheek swab test for all pups in litter and have a bucket of water ready when the tests come back


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> How would you cull the affected? The disease doesn't come about until 7-8yrs approximately retiring age, until there is actually disease all dogs are only "at risk"
> 
> Unless my understanding of DM is wrong; genetically You have clear>carrier>at risk (never shows, no disease)<at risk (affected shows disease), in some breeds there are even reported cases of individuals diagnosed with DM that carry no copy of the supposed affector gene, who are genetically clear. While a useful tool, until a test can absolutely diagnosis a condition it's results need to be taken with a grain of salt. Breeders know a lot more about the character of their lines than what can be diagnosis with an unreliable test, most keep excellent records, so if they have a few (at risk) or (carrier) individuals from several generations, who have never shown or produced a positive case of DM. They probably feel pretty safe in their breeding decisions on whether or not to breed (carrier or at risk) to each other. They've put the time in. On the other hand a breeder who knows of a case of DM in their lines they might be more picky in their choices of clear breedings.



In theory, you are right. I know of a breeder(FT, very well respected east) who's had two live to be 14. Died of old age. It was a third generation breeding. The breedings produced a few FC's and it was before the DM test was available. The problem is not the knowledgable breeders it's, the guys who are using the logic you explained although, have ZERO history of owning and training dogs for multiple generations before making the decision. 

The long time breeders are using it as a tool and recognizing the "potential". The short term thinkers are using the excuses for ignoring it.


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

The DM research paper by Dr. Bell states "it is obvious that the vast majority of "At-risk" dogs will not develop DM".

50% decline in breed registrations over the last 10 years.
60-65% of tested dogs are carrier or at-risk
There is no test for temperament.
Hip dysplasia occurs in the breed at twenty-something%
All dogs will die of something. I had to put a dog down last year from cancer. She may have been at-risk, who knows. It is unfortunate when any dog dies.
None of us are "pro-DM"

So, knowing this, how could anyone condemn someone for doing a carrier to carrier breeding. Regardless of pedigree, titles, etc.

The people above my pay grade will also talk about dillution of the gene pool via popular stud effect.

Just to be clear, in this hypothetical breeding, each pup has a 25% chance of being at-risk for a disease that usually does not affect the dog until it is 7. And most at-risk dogs will not have DM. Yet, some still need to condemn others for this? If it is not something you would like to do, fine. If you want to only buy a clear pup, fine. But I think the moral high-ground being claimed here is shaky at best. Let's stay together, and not become split. Unfortunately, I think that toothpaste is already out of the tube.

Let's support each others right to breed our dogs as we see fit. If you don't like my breeding choices, move on. I just don't see the need to condemn others.

Damon Sweep


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

I think some on this thread are confusing at-risk and affected.

The EIC test is a test for EIC.
The DM test is a test for DM Susceptibility.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

classact2731 said:


> Angie, I agree with you. Dm is a very highly debated subject with a clear divide as to who accepts what science. As the so called expert geneticists say it should be used as a tool not an exclude r. Until they know more to do so is has the potential to do as much harm as the DM itself. We in the chessie world are split in two camps the out with the lepers and the lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. I do not think we should breed on a whim but if it compliments the bitch and you do not have a better fit then you breed and over the next few gen you work towards clear status.To rid DM is a multi year process not two generations so include all diversity and make smart choices and in time we will be where we all want healthy workable chessies that we know and love. JMO and we all have them


I totally agree.. In 10-15 years we will be breeding around something else. It will work itself out due to the simple fact that we have a test that can help us make better breeding decisions.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

dlsweep said:


> I think some on this thread are confusing at-risk and affected.
> 
> The EIC test is a test for EIC.
> The DM test is a test for DM Susceptibility.


In the big picture it basically means the same. I would not place or sell a at risk/affected puppy in a home. I don't think it's ethical.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> buy the DM cheek swab test for all pups in litter and have a bucket of water ready when the tests come back


Pretty much....

Angie


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## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

@Angie "it is obvious that the vast majority of "At-risk" dogs will not develop DM".

It is definatly not the same thing.

Respectfully,


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

dlsweep said:


> @Angie "it is obvious that the vast majority of "At-risk" dogs will not develop DM".
> 
> It is definatly not the same thing.
> 
> Respectfully,


But no one knows which ones will and which ones won't.. That's the kicker and myself as a breeder I won't take that risk. Look at it this way... How can I tell a family that their puppy will not show a symptom of the disease?? I can't... So I won't sell or give an affected/at risk puppy to anyone. Even if they knew what they were getting into. No breeding is worth that in my opinion.

Respectfully,,, 

Angie


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Carriers have been affected of dm.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Obviously it's a touchy subject with some, because as pointed out, not all "at risk" dogs will develop DM. Certainly there are occasional pairings of Chesapeakes of exceptional pedigree and merit that may produce at risk puppies that are worth that risk; it's a matter of the breeder's comfort level in producing such breedings. ON the flip side of the coin, and what most people have a big problem with, are repeated and reckless breedings of ordinary dogs producing multiple litters of DM-affected dogs at a time when most responsible breeders seek to reduce the incidence of the disease. And bragging about producing dozens of at risk puppies no matter what they sell for is just plain boorish.

Edited to add that there has been ONE instance of a carrier dog diagnosed with DM, and that was a different form of the disease than the one that's been studied.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Julie R. said:


> Obviously it's a touchy subject with some, because as pointed out, not all "at risk" dogs will develop DM. Certainly there are occasional pairings of Chesapeakes of exceptional pedigree and merit that may produce at risk puppies that are worth that risk; it's a matter of the breeder's comfort level in producing such breedings. ON the flip side of the coin, and what most people have a big problem with, are repeated and reckless breedings of ordinary dogs producing multiple litters of DM-affected dogs at a time when most responsible breeders seek to reduce the incidence of the disease. And bragging about producing dozens of at risk puppies no matter what they sell for is just plain boorish.
> 
> Edited to add that there has been ONE instance of a carrier dog diagnosed with DM, and that was a different form of the disease than the one that's been studied.


I rather have a DM at risk that looks and performs like a real Chesapeake then a mexican hairless Weimaraner. Hows that for Boorish?????????????????


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Ok this is not what i was looking for when starting this thread.... I was simply looking for the who's who on the stud market. It's obvious many of us have different opinoins on DM testing and what is acceptable breeding-wise. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and theres no need to attack anyone based on theirs. I have recieved some really good PM's with helpful advice and some good suggestions for those I say Thank You.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

j towne said:


> Carriers have been affected of dm.


Really?? That's very interesting... Is there data to support this??

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Matt Duncan said:


> Ok this is not what i was looking for when starting this thread.... I was simply looking for the who's who on the stud market. It's obvious many of us have different opinoins on DM testing and what is acceptable breeding-wise. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and theres no need to attack anyone based on theirs. I have recieved some really good PM's with helpful advice and some good suggestions for those I say Thank You.


I know,,, but your thread brought about some good discussion. Off topic yes,,, but it's all good.

Angie


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Angie B said:


> I know,,, but your thread brought about some good discussion. Off topic yes,,, but it's all good.
> 
> Angie


Just don't want it to turn into bickering and personal attacks which is the way it was headed..


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

j towne said:


> I rather have a DM at risk that looks and performs like a real Chesapeake then a mexican hairless Weimaraner. Hows that for *Boorish*?????????????????


Congrats you win.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Okay guys chill!

FOM
RTF Moderator


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Pals said:


> Congrats you win.


ROFL.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Matt Duncan said:


> Just don't want it to turn into bickering and personal attacks which is the way it was headed..


I don't think so... Just want the facts,,, always the facts..

How I breed dogs and how someone else breeds dog could be worlds apart. Doesn't make it wrong just different..

Angie


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## Josh Ward (Sep 10, 2003)

j towne said:


> I rather have a DM at risk that looks and performs like a real Chesapeake then a mexican hairless Weimaraner. Hows that for Boorish?????????????????



Hummm..... 

I'm just not on board with intentionally producing more DM genes by breed at risk/at risk.....regardless of the dogs performance. There are enough clear dogs the perform well to make such breedings a poor decision IMHO....


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Pals said:


> Congrats you win.


Lol. ..........


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Josh Ward said:


> Hummm.....
> 
> I'm just not on board with intentionally producing more DM genes by breed at risk/at risk.....regardless of the dogs performance. There are enough clear dogs the perform well to make such breedings a poor decision IMHO....


X2........


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Pals said:


> Congrats you win.


That's hilarious,,, Seriously...

Angie


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Carriers have not come down with DM. The study mentioned a mutation of DM in another breed. Stop that Nick. Chessie owners stop this nonsense. Some people will never be convinced all that is necessary is that we are informed and make our own decisions. More chessies need to be run in field trials and hunt tests.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

moscowitz said:


> Carriers have not come down with DM. The study mentioned a mutation of DM in another breed. Stop that Nick. Chessie owners stop this nonsense. Some people will never be convinced all that is necessary is that we are informed and make our own decisions. More chessies need to be run in field trials and hunt tests.


Kinda what I figured but Nick wants to stir the pot... Just a little...

Angie


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

moscowitz said:


> Carriers have not come down with DM. The study mentioned a mutation of DM in another breed. Stop that Nick. Chessie owners stop this nonsense. Some people will never be convinced all that is necessary is that we are informed and make our own decisions. More chessies need to be run in field trials and hunt tests.


This was from Lisa van loo. 
"there actually have been 4 dogs that tested either as Carrier or Normal who have gone on to develop DM, positively diagnosed by examining the spinal cord after death. One of these dogs was a Chessie. The other three were from other breeds."

She knows more about this them me and she has told you a a bunch of times. 

Angie maybe you should call Lisa s pot stirrer not me.


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

Wow.....Let's get back to talking studs! Much more interesting............

This went to the great DM debate.....

Matt I hope you have received some good info through PM's


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

j towne said:


> This was from Lisa van loo.
> "there actually have been 4 dogs that tested either as Carrier or Normal who have gone on to develop DM, positively diagnosed by examining the spinal cord after death. One of these dogs was a Chessie. The other three were from other breeds."
> 
> She knows more about this them me and she has told you a a bunch of times.
> ...


Thanks, I remember that post and was digging through my files trying to find it - was pretty sure it was from LVL. Also per http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/ there were 2 non "at risk" dogs (doesn't specify whether normal or carrier) who developed the disease. 

T. Mac


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

T. Mac said:


> Thanks, I remember that post and was digging through my files trying to find it - was pretty sure it was from LVL. Also per http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/ there were 2 non "at risk" dogs (doesn't specify whether normal or carrier) who developed the disease.
> 
> T. Mac


I think Lisa has access to a lot more info then the rest of us do. I try to really pay attention her post since I think she uses more facts then just her opinion. Even though her opion is a lot more educated then most.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The hard part about DM is that 1) there is more than one form (but one specific form that manifests most often in Chessies); and 2) it is a polygenic disease like hip dysplasia, meaning it takes multiple genes to manifest and so far there is only one common gene identified...which is not enough information to say that "At Risk" is the same as "Affected", like with EIC. Additionally, it is present in several other breeds, including one breed in particular that has a very high percentage of dogs testing "At Risk", yet there has never been a documented case of DM actually occurring in that breed.
So with the available information, the recommendation from OFA is to look hard at the immediate ancestors of dogs testing at risk when making breeding decisions. If there have been deaths from DM, that increases the chances of a dog testing "At Risk" actually developing the disease. They also recommend not discarding dogs from breeding programs based strictly on their DM status alone...other health clearances and traits need to be considered too.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

j towne said:


> This was from Lisa van loo.
> "there actually have been 4 dogs that tested either as Carrier or Normal who have gone on to develop DM, positively diagnosed by examining the spinal cord after death. One of these dogs was a Chessie. The other three were from other breeds."
> 
> She knows more about this them me and she has told you a a bunch of times.
> ...


You're conclusions are based on this???

Really?? So much for the well informed chessie breeders...

Angie


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Angie B said:


> You're conclusions are based on this???
> 
> Really?? So much for the well informed chessie breeders...
> 
> Angie



If there is one dont you think there could be more? How acurate was the PRA test when it first came out? 

You asked for data to support that. If you have more questions about it email Lisa.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Once again there was not a chessie that came down with DM I read the same article. Sharon it is wire hair terriers that have not come down with DM which is incorrect. If I knew how to post a video I would show you DM in a wirehair terrier. Nick I really don't want to argue about this but I read the same article Lisa read. In fact I posted it sometime back. I have witnessed DM and I want no part of it. It is heartbreaking when it's your dog. Nick hold your tongue on this topic you have two dogs maybe a third that are at risk your playing the odds and I hope you win. Also, prayer for Gracie hope she is okay keep me posted.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Mike, thanks. I would be very interested in that video, along with the proof of the same genetic form of DM that is being tested for. I'm sure the info is out there...just tell me where to look for it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I'm more interested in what breeders are doing to fix that smell!

/paPaul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm more interested in what breeders are doing to fix that smell!
> 
> /paPaul


I undo what the beaver just did...should help a little..


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

I dont smell a thing.. either mine dont stink or my sniffer quit working 4 chessies ago..


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

moscowitz said:


> Once again there was not a chessie that came down with DM I read the same article. Sharon it is wire hair terriers that have not come down with DM which is incorrect. If I knew how to post a video I would show you DM in a wirehair terrier. Nick I really don't want to argue about this but I read the same article Lisa read. In fact I posted it sometime back. I have witnessed DM and I want no part of it. It is heartbreaking when it's your dog. Nick hold your tongue on this topic you have two dogs maybe a third that are at risk your playing the odds and I hope you win. Also, prayer for Gracie hope she is okay keep me posted.


A client lost a dog to it last year. Also I believe the Patterson's had one their good dogs succumb to the disease. It's out there..

Angie


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

The form of DM that has been extensively studied, that has a higher incidence in CBRs among other breeds, is not the same form that was diagnosed in the carrier CBR that was diagnosed port mortem. I read the same article. There is a lot more that needs to be learned about the disease and I happen to be one that believes there are certain instances where a breeding that might produce more affecteds might be worth doing. Would I do it myself? I'm not sure, as I haven't been faced with a breeding decision on a pairing I really liked where it could happen, but it's not up to me to judge what someone else chooses to do since there is more to consider in potential breedings than just DM status. However, to recklessly breed and produce potentially hundreds of puppies at risk for something easily avoided (whether DM, hip dysplasia or blindness) is just plain irresponsible. We in the relatively small retrieving community are better equipped to make decisions on carriers and breedings that might produce more at risk/affected dogs, but remember not all puppies end up in the hands of educated people thus the potential to spread these deleterious genes is exponential.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

There is now more pages to this thread than proven CBR studs.

Tim


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

What actually qualifies a stud as proven????


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Beamer81 said:


> What actually qualifies a stud as proven????


Usually, most people consider a proven stud to have a title above "couch warming biscuit snacker" and have offspring in a competitive venue. To some, proven just means means having sperm that swim and attach to an egg.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Look at the Ama Nationals that were just run and see how many were sired by the same stud dog. THAT IS A PROVEN STUD. THE DOG THAT WON WAS SIRED BY GRADY AND GRADY WAS A FINALIST. I GUESS I SHOULD GET A GRADY PUPPY. WON'T HAPPEN THIS YEAR.


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

Maybe the Chester/Minsi pup will be a future proven stud.......


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

naw, Mikes got Grady bitch x Murray Chesadore's in the works.. They'll sell for around $3,000 at the Jersey pet shops...


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

moscowitz said:


> Look at the Ama Nationals that were just run and see how many were sired by the same stud dog. THAT IS A PROVEN STUD. THE DOG THAT WON WAS SIRED BY GRADY AND GRADY WAS A FINALIST. I GUESS I SHOULD GET A GRADY PUPPY. WON'T HAPPEN THIS YEAR.


This may be true for Some, but to those that show proven may be something else. The people that want a good hunting dog and don't do test or trials do not even know what it takes so not sure it is that important to them either. To the ones that aspire to have an AFC or FC or be competitive in field trials it is probably a good definition. Chris and I think "Larry" is proven in are eyes. He with "Deuce" and me with "Katie" could not be happier.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

I'm kinda glad I jumped out of this conversation on page 2. I will say, after my dog won a blue, finished a couple for greenies and did ok in his only Am, the phone started ringing. After informing the inquiries of him being a DM carrier, the phone stopped ringing. What a shame. 42 marks in HT's this spring and not a even a safety handle. So much for improving the breed. Might be time to go over to the dark side and just blend in with the crowd.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Andy Symons said:


> I'm kinda glad I jumped out of this conversation on page 2. I will say, after my dog won a blue, finished a couple for greenies and did ok in his only Am, the phone started ringing. After informing the inquiries of him being a DM carrier, the phone stopped ringing. What a shame. 42 marks in HT's this spring and not a even a safety handle. So much for improving the breed. Might be time to go over to the dark side and just blend in with the crowd.


I know what you mean. Thor has every health clearance, MH, 3rd in a Q, 5 titled offspring 1 is a MH and has been doing pretty good in Q's and 2 more running master this year. He has 1000's of retrieves hunting too and a great temperment. He has won ribbons in everything from dock dogs to dog shows. But some people are turned off because he is at risk. He is 7 years old and still competing and hunting. I have some frozen seman on him so I will be breeding back to him down the road.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Andy Symons said:


> I'm kinda glad I jumped out of this conversation on page 2. I will say, after my dog won a blue, finished a couple for greenies and did ok in his only Am, the phone started ringing. After informing the inquiries of him being a DM carrier, the phone stopped ringing. What a shame. 42 marks in HT's this spring and not a even a safety handle. So much for improving the breed. Might be time to go over to the dark side and just blend in with the crowd.


You think that's tough - it is only tougher on the dark side cause black stud dogs are a dime a dozen....just enjoy your dog cause he sounds like he is a wonderful one.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

j towne said:


> Not sure where you are getting these prices from. Thor is DM at risk but has all other clearances and was just a MH and he sired 4 litters over the past year and all the pups sold for $1,000. He also has a couple titled offspring. Only 1 bitch he was bred to had a title and she has a senior title.
> Now my Graicie was just a Senior hunter and she is DM at Risk. Thor is her sire and her dam doesnt have a title for 3 generations. She has 2 titled offspring from her first breeding. I got $1300 a pup when I bred her to a clear MH *** and $1300 a pup when I bred her to a carrier MH. Now Gracie has her MH and people are waiting for me to breed her again. They dont care who I breed her too or the DM status they want a pup. She will not be bred till fall 2013 the earliest. I kept a pup from my Gracie X Scout Breeding a At risk to carrier breeding and still havent DM tested her yet.


This is absolutely as a reponsible breeder what you DON'T want to do. Nick Steen e-mailed me when I questioned why he was breeding Thor to at-risk and carrier bitches that he wasn't concerned with DM because in his opinion it is a disease that affects old dogs and he's more interested in the health of the young dog. I was stunned. Does he think we love our dogs less when they age? I have talked to people in the American Chesapeake Club about Thor being bred to at-risk and carriers and club members are very concerned. They also are concerned about those with at-risk and carrier bitches breeding to Thor. I bet if you asked any one of those puppy buyers if they ware willing to have their dog die of a terrible crippling disease they would pass on the litter. Why don't you show them the video of that great dog Distagon and what DM did to him and let them see that CH-MH dog barely able to stand? Do you think they wouldn't care about the DM status then?


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> DM status is one of those things you need to know....but basing breeding decisions on that alone is short-sighted. While it needs to be on the radar, it's easy enough to breed around. As for the pedigree on the bitch, one of the things I like about the breed is that you've got a pretty good shot at a good all-around dog with pretty much any lines with a solid history of health clearances on hips, CERF, PRA, elbows. The bitch having an HRCH is certainly a plus, and a mating to a DM clear stud should give you a nice litter of pups. And depending on what stud you use, the price point for the pups should start at around 1000. Around here, a $600 Chessie pup is a backyard breeder/newspaper puppy with no titles and maybe hips and eyes at best for health clearances.


Now this is sound advice. If you can find a quality Chessie male with the right health clearances and get do a natural breeding that is what I would do. You will produce quality companion and hunting dogs that also will be likely able to do hunt tests with that Caroway line. Also Rudy was a great dog. I recently bred to a Blaze son, with Blaze being out of Rudy. Tempertment of the pups was the best I've bred. Field drive galore. Any quality pup now is selling for minimum $800.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Andy's dog is one helluva dog, too...when I have the right bitch, I will be requesting some of the frozen stuff. People not using him just because he's a DM carrier...just makes me shake my head. If he were in the At risk category, maybe...but carrier? He brings so much more to the table from a drive and talent standpoint...he can mark with the best of 'em...plus he has an outstanding disposition. I've had the pleasure of training with Andy and Sniper before this year's Grand, plus I had the privilege of doing his upland training a couple of years ago, and he is an exceptional dog.


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

While DM is always a toughly debated subject I would love to see the percentage of at risk who develop DM. From what I read it is very low.If someone has this stat I would love to see it as I feel it a better gauge as to what we are dealing with because at risk does not mean they will develop DM. No one will dis agree that what happened to Dual AFC Distagon MH was a shame but there are many chessies with him in there pedigree that are carrier or clear so if they chose to never breed him would it not be a loss to the breed. We should use all qualities in determining a breeding to better the breed and what one thinks is not worthy of breeding another may think is the best.I have several friends that have dogs out of Dual AFC Distagon MH's line and tell them he should not have been breed. I would love to rid the breed of DM but am not willing to wright off the at risk and carrier dogs to do it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I had a littermate to Distagon, and she ended up with DM as well, at age nine, I believe (I no longer owned her at that point.) It is my understanding also that the percentage of at risk dogs that actually develop DM is fairly low. Would I use an At Risk stud? If he was an exceptional example of the breed in every other way (and I mean top of the line), and my female was clear, yes. None of those pups would ever be stricken with DM. Would I breed At Risk to Carrier? Nope. At Risk to At Risk? Ten times nope.
All that said, I am hoping for as many of my lines to be clear as possible....but I'm not using DM status as my main breeding criteria.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

j towne said:


> Thor has every health clearance.


Huh? Thor is affected/at risk for DM.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Would I use an At Risk stud? If he was an exceptional example of the breed in every other way (and I mean top of the line), and my female was clear, yes. None of those pups would ever be stricken with DM. Would I breed At Risk to Carrier? Nope. At Risk to At Risk? Ten times nope. That said I am hoping for as many of my lines to be clear as possible....but I'm not using DM status as my main breeding criteria.


This is my position on the DM issue as well as a breeder.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I just bought a puppy that is a carrier. I have no problem with that. But at Risk I would walk away. Though the % might be low I have seen to many great chessies put down because of DM and that's one less sorrow I need. I look for a dog I can totally enjoy training and running and just like to be around so carrier does not trouble me. Murray is a carrier and he is 12 1/2 and I am enjoying his old age. He was a MH and QAA. I am good friends with Nick but Thor should only be breed to clear and that's just my opinion.


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## GiGi Grant (Nov 15, 2009)

There's a local gal here who allowed her dog to be bred to a bitch with OFA and CERF only. Her reasoning- "Well, we're only selling them to pet families" !!! So I guess people who title their dogs must love them more than the poor souls who just own pets. Unbelievable. Touched a nerve, as our first Chessie was put down 1 mo. short of his 9th birthday due to severe DM. Did the whole necropsy, too. Definitely DM.


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## BARTELS GUNDOGS (Apr 13, 2009)

http://www.facebook.com/#!/josh.ward.5602 get a hold of josh !!!


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## MarshMutt (Jun 4, 2012)

I agree, get in touch with Josh Ward of operetrievers.com

His dog cooper is a very fine stud

Field Staff www.marshmutt.com


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

MarshMutt said:


> I agree, get in touch with Josh Ward of operetrievers.com
> 
> His dog cooper is a very fine stud
> 
> Field Staff www.marshmutt.com


Hmmm I'll look him up...;-)


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Heck, save yourself some trouble. Contact Mitch and Linda Paterson up near Chicago and breed her to which ever dog they'll let you breed to. Boom, done.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Mitch and Linda they know. Well Linda is the brains in that operation


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Test results are slowly rolling in for Koda. Today has not been a good day to say the least. She did come back as DM carrier (which I was expecting). Called U of MN and found out the bad news EIC- Affected. Still picking my jaw up off of the floor.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Matt Duncan said:


> Test results are slowly rolling in for Koda. Today has not been a good day to say the least. She did come back as DM carrier (which I was expecting). Called U of MN and found out the bad news EIC- Affected. Still picking my jaw up off of the floor.


I'm sorry, it's a punch in the gut...


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## Matt Gasaway (May 22, 2009)

Sorry to hear that Matt...


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## MarshMutt (Jun 4, 2012)

Very sorry to hear that. Thoughts and prayers go out

Field Staff www.marshmutt.com


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Matt Duncan said:


> Test results are slowly rolling in for Koda. Today has not been a good day to say the least. She did come back as DM carrier (which I was expecting). Called U of MN and found out the bad news EIC- Affected. Still picking my jaw up off of the floor.


Pick your chin up and don't fall apart. You can breed your affected bitch. I've done it along with many other people with very good results.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

MarshMutt said:


> Very sorry to hear that. Thoughts and prayers go out
> 
> Field Staff www.marshmutt.com


Really?? Thoughts and prayers?? What for???

Angie


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Chin up, Just one more gene to breed around, EIC affected in a Chessie is not the same as EIC affected in a Lab. Most Chessie do not collapse, the Stats for affected are high in Chessies, but they don't show the disease. It's something to be aware of but as Angie says it doesn't break the camels back.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Chin up, Just one more gene to breed around, EIC affected in a Chessie is not the same as EIC affected in a Lab. Most Chessie do not collapse, the Stats for affected are high in Chessies, but they don't show the disease. It's something to be aware of but as Angie says it doesn't break the camels back.


But affected is still affected regardless if they're clinical or not. Unfortunately others conveniently forget this. Doesn't matter if it's DM or EIC. This test identifies the gene for the disease. The disease is not polysomal or does the test just find a marker gene. It identifies the gene that determines if ones dog is clear, affected or a carrier of the disease.

Angie


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Ditto what Angie said. EIC is not as common in CBRs as it is in Labs and clearly your girl is asymptomatic affected or you would've seen episodes along the way training to her HRCH. If memory recalls only 2 or 3 CBRs have had actual collapsing episodes, even though the numbers of affecteds would suggest otherwise. So while the breed does have the gene for EIC, it might be better to term dogs with 2 copies of the gene at risk rather than affected. I wouldn't hesitate to buy an EIC carrier pup; you have a lot more choices of EIC clear males than DM clear males.


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

I understand there are more choices of EIC clear studs than DM clear studs but I think my work is cut out for me finding a good stud that is EIC and DM clear that I would like to breed to. I obviously dont want to pick a stud based solely on his DM/EIC status. SO that being said any insight or advice on a good place to start looking? I've decided I want to do a natural breeding if at all possible. I appreciate all the good info and suggestions posted by many of you on this thread and in PMs. Thanks again


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

You might want to check out http://www.cursan.com. Sandy Dollar is a long time Chesapeake breeder of excellent dogs. She has a very nice male at stud - Ch Cursan's Ruff Cut, MH who is EIC and DM Clear. She is in Wisconsin. Good luck with your breeding of Koda!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Good suggestion, Pat...I mentioned Sandy to Matt, but was thinking of her younger dog, Cash...also clear on EIC and DM. Very nice pedigree...am breeding to his sire shortly.


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## Pleasantpine (Jan 22, 2005)

I'm still kind of stuck on post # 31......... If I undersdtanc correctly..... You are NOT going to keep a pup.... then WHY are you breeding your dog...... and even more so with the reults of her health clearances........

I would invest the money and start over with another puppy bitch....... I know the waiting and going thru all the health clearance are a crap shoot....... BUT WHY perpetuate (sp) the line with genetic disorders... I THOUGHT the purpose of breeding was to BETTER the breed......

Just my two cents ........


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Pleasantpine said:


> I'm still kind of stuck on post # 31......... If I undersdtanc correctly..... You are NOT going to keep a pup.... then WHY are you breeding your dog...... and even more so with the reults of her health clearances........
> 
> I would invest the money and start over with another puppy bitch....... I know the waiting and going thru all the health clearance are a crap shoot....... BUT WHY perpetuate (sp) the line with genetic disorders... I THOUGHT the purpose of breeding was to BETTER the breed......
> 
> Just my two cents ........


I think you took that the wrong way. I can't see myself not keeping a pup but breeding just to get a pup for myself isn't a very good reason for me to have a litter. Your right bettering the breed is important. That is why heath certs are done and the time and research is done in selecting the right stud. If we were breeding solely dogs clear of DM or EIC you will find that the performance qualities that we all love in the breed will quickly be gone. Something that we will breed out over time not in one or two generations.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Pleasantpine said:


> I'm still kind of stuck on post # 31......... If I undersdtanc correctly..... You are NOT going to keep a pup.... then WHY are you breeding your dog...... and even more so with the reults of her health clearances........
> 
> I would invest the money and start over with another puppy bitch....... I know the waiting and going thru all the health clearance are a crap shoot....... BUT WHY perpetuate (sp) the line with genetic disorders... I THOUGHT the purpose of breeding was to BETTER the breed......
> 
> Just my two cents ........


in a nutshell, in Chesapeakes, we don't have hundreds of thousands of dogs registered a year. We don't have a lot of "proven" studs which are clear. If everyone went and only bred "clear everything" dogs, we'd have our gene pool hacked into a tiny piece of mainly dogs who have never proven they can work at a high level. Our BEST dogs have almost all been EIC carriers and/or DM carriers and likely in the past based on pedigrees, affected...... 

It should NOT be the rage or, considered the "right" thing to do to go out and breed all clear EIC/DM. 

I personally avoid breedings/breeders who do ANY amount of promotion of breeding only DM clear dogs on either their websites or their breeding program. It is a clearly unbalanced thought process to do so.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

To better a breed means to improve on the traits that make the breed. Structure, coat, disposition...all those things found in the breed standard....plus marking ability, trainability, drive, desire, nose, courage and perserverance etc. are what make the breed. Discarding individuals simply based on carrier status rather than working ability is a great way to eliminate the great characteristics that define the breed. Genetic tests are there to make sure we don't produce any AFFECTED puppies, not to eliminate all carriers.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

Very well said, Sharon. Breeding is all about the whole dogs involved - not one negative health test. We are a small gene pool and need to use common-sense.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

MarshMutt said:


> Very sorry to hear that. Thoughts and prayers go out
> 
> Field Staff www.marshmutt.com


Why?
The dog didn't die.

Matt Good Luck in your search and I hope you find what your looking for.


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## K.Wilson (Feb 9, 2005)

Well said, Sharon and Pat. I have a problem with breeders claiming pups will never be affected, especially with DM, when we don't know enough about it. The overall percentage of dogs that have been tested is small. What gene combination(s), or other factors trigger it. We just don't know, nor do we know the true source of it. Still have to look at & evaluate the total dog honestly, both the good & not-so-good, and for both the potential sire & dam before making breeding decisions. 

Karen


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

K. Wilson wrote:



> Well said, Sharon and Pat. I have a problem with breeders claiming pups will never be affected, especially with DM, when we don't know enough about it.


Not true,,, the DM test will tell you if your dog is affected or not. End of story. They have found the gene. Now will that gene ever express itself?? Maybe not. That's where breeders are short sighted. It is NOT okay to breed affected dogs to other affected dogs or carriers to carriers or carriers to affecteds, unless you are willing to cull the affecteds. Just because the gene doesn't express itself doesn't mean it isn't there. This is the part that people refuse to understand.



> The overall percentage of dogs that have been tested is small. What gene combination(s), or other factors trigger it. We just don't know, nor do we know the true source of it.


Really??? I've found the opposite. Many reputable breeders are testing for it. We do know the true source thanks to the test but we don't know what will express it. But does that really matter?? Does that allow us to be sloppy in our breeding practices?

Angie


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## K.Wilson (Feb 9, 2005)

Think you read something other than what I meant into that. I never said it's okay to breed At risk to At risk dog. No way!!! Sorry you read it that way.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

K.Wilson said:


> Think you read something other than what I meant into that. I never said it's okay to breed At risk to At risk dog. No way!!! Sorry you read it that way.


But many see "At Risk" as "No Risk" because they show no symptoms... Unfortunately many chessie breeders see the DM, EIC just that way.

Angie


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Angie Many reputable breeders are testing for it. We do know the true source thanks to the test but we don't know what will express it. But does that really matter?? Does that allow us to be sloppy in our breeding practices?
Angie[/QUOTE said:


> Reputable breeders are and should be testing for DM. We only know an indicator of potential disease. We don't know what translates that marker/markers into disease and IMHO that does matter. It will take several generations of dogs and research $$$$ to find the gene produces the catalyst that converts the "at risk" dog to an "affected" dog. This will then show us the source of the disease.
> 
> 
> Tim


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Tim Carrion said:


> Reputable breeders are and should be testing for DM. We only know an indicator of potential disease. We don't know what translates that marker/markers into disease and IMHO that does matter. It will take several generations of dogs and research $$$$ to find the gene produces the catalyst that converts the "at risk" dog to an "affected" dog. This will then show us the source of the disease.
> 
> 
> Tim


Everything I've researched states that they have found The Gene for the disease. It's Not a Marker gene. It's the real thing. Now will the disease ever express itself in an affected dog?? We don't know. Just like EIC. I've trained and owned several EIC affected dogs that never were clinical. Same with DM.

Angie


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

From what I understand from my research it is not The Gene as you suggest. This gene is in all dogs that are affected but it is unknown what other genes must be present for the dogs to become affected. That is why it is listed as at risk and not affected.

http://www.chessieinfo.net/degenerative-myelopathy.htm

Russell


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

DM is considered polygenic. That means it takes more than one gene to manifest. So far, one of those genes has been identified, which is why dogs are termed At Risk rather than Affected ...and this is the terminology used by the researchers and veterinarians. So, while it would be great to have it as cut and dried as The One Gene, thus far it is not.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

"This gene is also suspected to be a simple recessive, which may be a "switch" which turns on the expression of the disease, causing symptomatic DM. The current test should not be used to remove any dogs from breeding. The test result is only a guideline, not a certainty, as to a dog's DM status. "(www.chessieinfo.net/dgegenerative-myelopathy.htm)

The expression of a gene is regulated through numerous molecular interactions. Genes are simply a recipe for the cell to make something, usually some protien/enzyme. It is these products of the genes that determines the results. Individual genes are constantly being "swtched" on and off by both intrinsic and extrinsic factors so what eventually is produced by that gene depends on a multitude of factors. Add to this a polygenic disease and you can see we have only scratched the surface on DM.

We have identified 1 piece of the puzzel. This piece should not be ignored but it should also not be considered the answer.
Too many dogs are wearing the "scarlet letter" A.

Tim


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Angie B said:


> K. Wilson wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a difference between at risk and affected so keep up on your reading.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

j towne said:


> There is a difference between at risk and affected so keep up on your reading.


Yup, affected is known when the dog is dead. At risk is giving you a high likelyhood you'll be finding out your dog is affected when it's dead.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yup, affected is known when the dog is dead. At risk is giving you a high likelyhood you'll be finding out your dog is affected when it's dead.


But what if you don't get the dog at risk dog autopsied is it still affected? What if I pay for the autopsy and it comes back normal-unaffected? What a rip-off, pay for a test on a dead dog, and get a clean result. 

This is a very enjoyable thread keeps going around and around, although I bet Matt just wishes it would disappear. LOL


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yup, affected is known when the dog is dead. *At risk is giving you a high likelyhood you'll be finding out your dog is affected when it's dead*.


Really??? Where do you find any research to support this or this JYO. Here is a Question for you what is worse for the breed to breed two dogs that compliment each other in working and conformation that are at risk but may never get dm or breed a good bitch to a dog that is clear but may not add any strengths to pups. I will say there is little need to breed at risk to at risk but logistically there is sometimes a problem finding the right dog to match up that is clear and if you have a male at risk he might as well have sores all over him as the people that have clears do not want to include the at risks.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> But what if you don't get the dog at risk dog autopsied is it still affected? What if I pay for the autopsy and it comes back normal-unaffected? What a rip-off, pay for a test on a dead dog, and get a clean result.
> 
> This is a very enjoyable thread keeps going around and around, although I bet Matt just wishes it would disappear. LOL


Well, for research purposes it is not a rip off in any way. I can see how some people who not only breed it but, promote it would think otherwise.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

classact2731 said:


> Really??? Where do you find any research to support this or this JYO. Here is a Question for you what is worse for the breed to breed two dogs that compliment each other in working and conformation that are at risk but may never get dm or breed a good bitch to a dog that is clear but may not add any strengths to pups. I will say there is little need to breed at risk to at risk but logistically there is sometimes a problem finding the right dog to match up that is clear and if you have a male at risk he might as well have sores all over him as the people that have clears do not want to include the at risks.


Scott, I can count on ONE hand how many breeders have the long term knowledge of the breed and a long range breeding program who would be qualified to do that type of breeding. Definately not to a bunch of backyard hunting dogs.


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

backyard hunting dogs? What do you think makes a dog worthy of breeding? What makes a person qualified to make breeding choices in your mind. Not being able to fill one hand with knowledgeable people in chessies does not look good for the breed to me. What makes someone one of the elite is it titles? We all know time money and good training and lots of dogs help with that not good for the guy that works and trains one dog to hunt and test with. Send me some of that cool aid I might drink it.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yup, affected is known when the dog is dead. At risk is giving you a high likelyhood you'll be finding out your dog is affected when it's dead.


Ok my Gracie is at risk for dm. But she almost died from IMHA a couple weeks back. She is only 4 years old. So does that mean she would have then been affected?


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

This breed was built on back yard hunting dogs and I am proud of mine.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

j towne said:


> This breed was built on back yard hunting dogs and I am proud of mine.



We're all proud of our dogs and love everyone elses' just the same. I know you have a wonderful animal who's a great hunting partner and friend. I had a Chessie die from torsion. It doesn't have anything to do with the subject of breeding at-risk x at-risk. Bottom line is that the majority of people in the Chesapeake world do not agree with what you do or, the breedings you have allowed. Not sure how else to say it.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> We're all proud of our dogs and love everyone elses' just the same. I know you have a wonderful animal who's a great hunting partner and friend. I had a Chessie die from torsion. It doesn't have anything to do with the subject of breeding at-risk x at-risk. Bottom line is that the majority of people in the Chesapeake world do not agree with what you do or, the breedings you have allowed. Not sure how else to say it.


I don't care what the rest of the Chesapeake community thinks about me. I have seen my dm at risk back yard dogs outperform theirs in the field enough to know they should spend more te training then worrying about what I am doing and I don't even know what I am doing.


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## Northernstorm (Apr 27, 2011)

j towne said:


> I don't care what the rest of the Chesapeake community thinks about me. I have seen my dm at risk back yard dogs outperform theirs in the field enough to know they should spend more te training then worrying about what I am doing and I don't even know what I am doing.


What are you doing snook?


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## Northernstorm (Apr 27, 2011)

j towne said:


> This breed was built on back yard hunting dogs and I am proud of mine.


you should be proud, you have some great peakes.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

A little fishing


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Northernstorm When is rogue going to run master. 3 rd Thor pup running master this year.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Paul I saw you bred your female. What makes your dog above a back yard bred hunting dog a senior title?


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

j towne said:


> Paul I saw you bred your female. What makes your dog above a back yard bred hunting dog a senior title?


Classy but not what this thread was for....  There's been some really good info on this thread, no need to turn it into a pissing match


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

j towne said:


> Paul I saw you bred your female. What makes your dog above a back yard bred hunting dog a senior title?


She was bred in a back yard so, technically, it makes her a backyard breeder.... If you look at her pedigree and the sire's pedigree you'll find some people who have been breeding Chessies individually for over 30 years a piece. I don't try to claim to know much about breeding dogs. I LISTEN to people who have "been there and done that" and follow their recommendations closely.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Some of the been there done that don't follow their own info. Trust me I'm not getting on a missing match over pedigree. My dogs don't have anything on paper. I just want to know what exactly a back yard bred dog is.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

To me, a backyard breeder is much the same as a puppy mill, only on a much smaller scale. Breeding with no regard to health clearances and doing it just for the money...or just because their female happens to come equipped with the appropriate reproductive parts and they love her, plus they want their kids to experience the miracle of birth.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

j towne said:


> There is a difference between at risk and affected so keep up on your reading.


I disagree... But keep drinking that koolaid.

You need to review your reading my friend... 

Angie


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Angie B said:


> I disagree... But keep drinking that koolaid.
> 
> You need to review your reading my friend...
> 
> Angie


I rather read what real doctors have to say about the disease. 



For the DM test dogs coming back "At-Risk" is the probability that the dog will later develop the disease known? Are there any statistics on frequency or number seen of affected dogs in the general Chesapeake population?

As we do not know the other factors that cause the clinical onset of DM, we cannot predict what percentage of dogs testing “At-Risk” (homozygous for the susceptibility gene) will develop the disease. Dr. Coates’ research of the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) showed that 13 of 1,567 (0.83%) Chesapeake Bay Retrievers presenting to veterinary teaching hospitals had clinical DM. Presently, 15% of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers test “At-Risk” for DM. It is obvious that the vast majority of “At-Risk” dogs will not develop DM.

Advice is conflicting about how to use the test results. If some A/A dogs never develop the disease, how can this be a definite test for DM? Is this result a false positive?

Dogs testing A/A (“At-Risk”) have definitive positive results for the susceptibility gene. As this is a direct mutation-based test, there are no false positives. It is important to remember that this is not a definitive test for dogs that will develop clinical DM.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

moscowitz said:


> Carriers have not come down with DM. The study mentioned a mutation of DM in another breed. Stop that Nick. Chessie owners stop this nonsense. Some people will never be convinced all that is necessary is that we are informed and make our own decisions. More chessies need to be run in field trials and hunt tests.


Are you sure. Someone just came out their Chesapeake was carrier and had DM.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

I just got the DM results back from Lulu and she came back carrier. There was a letter in with the results saying how at risk, carrier, and normal have all got DM. I found that interesting.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Angie B said:


> Good post T Mac!!!!
> 
> Also talk with the breeders that have been breeding the type of dog you're looking for, for a very long time. They can offer you a wealth of insight. Just make sure you have a cold one next to you when you're making those calls. You'll be on the phone a while.
> 
> Angie


Angie that's funny cause I've had that happen plenty of time with Labs. Is it possible to get ear cramps


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> To me, a backyard breeder is much the same as a puppy mill, only on a much smaller scale. Breeding with no regard to health clearances and doing it just for the money...or just because their female happens to come equipped with the appropriate reproductive parts and they love her, plus they want their kids to experience the miracle of birth.


Very well said Sharon!


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

FOR THE OP: My friend Sharon Collins just got the DM results back on her boy. CLEAR. I believe she said he made the "Top HRC STud Dog List" this past year. He just passed away at 14 years of age. I trained a couple of his pups and they were very very nice dogs. Rocky had both his MH and HRCH titles.

FYI, there is frozen semen available.

WRL


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

WRL said:


> FOR THE OP: My friend Sharon Collins just got the DM results back on her boy. CLEAR. I believe she said he made the "Top HRC STud Dog List" this past year. He just passed away at 14 years of age. I trained a couple of his pups and they were very very nice dogs. Rocky had both his MH and HRCH titles.
> 
> FYI, there is frozen semen available.
> 
> WRL


Nordom dogs have been proven performers with stellar records. Top shelf.


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

WRL said:


> FOR THE OP: My friend Sharon Collins just got the DM results back on her boy. CLEAR. I believe she said he made the "Top HRC STud Dog List" this past year. He just passed away at 14 years of age. I trained a couple of his pups and they were very very nice dogs. Rocky had both his MH and HRCH titles.
> 
> FYI, there is frozen semen available.
> 
> WRL


Thanks WRL already have a very nice boy lined up for March..


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Matt Duncan said:


> Thanks WRL already have a very nice boy lined up for March..


And a great pick @ that!!!!!Still in Matt!!


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## Scott R. (Mar 13, 2012)

I got DM results back a couple of weeks ago and no such letter was sent to me. I'd be interested to read it.


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