# Linebreed Blackwater Rudy?



## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

I have a yellow female daughter of FC AFC Hunting Hills Coriander. Cori is a son of Rudy. I have been wondering what the offspring would be like if I bred her to another Rudy son, like Riparian Windfall. Anyone ever seen or heard of any line bred Rudy dogs? If so, what are the good traits and what are the bad? My girl is only 7 months old, and has a long road ahead of her as far as training goes. She won't be bred unless she has at least an MHR title and all health clearances. The dam of my pup is by FC Devil and out of another FC AFC titled bitch. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom Murphy


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Tom,

I strongly suggest you think this through carefully. I co-owned FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II. Picked him out of a litter and raised him at home. What we all would hope is that through line breeding you may get consistent qualities like he had, but with stronger water acumen.

However, you must recognize that he is a son of NAFC-FC The Little Duke of Fargo; an absolutely miserable dog to train due to his attitude. He came by that attitude genetically. His line is infamous for it. Lots of talent, but very hard to train. 

I'm being very honest about this. I loved Bart, but I think his wonderful attitude toward training was a gift from his mom (FC-AFC Rocky Mountain Star II). You can do better for a bitch line. Do something that will compliment your dog's best traits and perhaps strengthen any weak areas.

I wouldn't try to scare anyone off of breeding to Rudy or that line. There are fine qualities to be gained there. I would not line breed it, though.

Evan


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

This is exactly the kind of input that I like to see. I like to gather as much info as I possibly can, good and bad, before making a decision to do a particular breeding. I don't think that I have ever seen a line-bred Rudy pedigree, maybe this is why? Keep the input coming.

Thanks!!!!!!!


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Tom we had a yellow (Rudy x AFC Abe's Magic Maggie) and he was a little too soft, held grudges. If you scolded him in the house he wouldn't look away from you or on his own sit facing the corner.


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## Brandon Bromley (Dec 21, 2006)

Evan; said:


> NAFC-FC The Little Duke of Fargo; an absolutely miserable dog to train due to his attitude. He came by that attitude genetically. His line is infamous for it. Lots of talent, but very hard to train.
> 
> Evan


Evan,

Will you please explain?


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## Tom Hawley (Apr 25, 2005)

I will agree with Evan as they are hard to train. I have a male out of Blackwater Rudy and have never bred him as I don't like the training or water attitude. He is a AFTCH and won a double header in Canada. Would think long and hard about linebreeding.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Addicted said:


> Evan,
> 
> Will you please explain?


I've known Bobby George for decades. Bobby has spent many years working for and with Bill Eckett, who had Duke for most of his career. I use the story to illustrate the attitude problem so common to the line (Little Duke and on back).

Bobby told me Bill would go from crate to crate during the usual day's training, and he'd open Duke's. He'd look at him and say "He's not ready yet", close the door and come back later. Duke would sulk in the corner. He hated to train. 

On game day he would be a rocking/rolling/creeping high roller. On training day he'd sulk and pout. I don't know if you've heard the term "holding out", but Duke was a good one for it, as was his dad. 

Believe me, Bart was never ever like that. He and Lucy were pretty much the high point of every training day. Always ready, always wanting to work. But you can't deny genetics and their potential influence on future generations. It's a crap shoot, but why gamble with line breeding?

Evan


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

In 1989 in the fall after the National Amateur Ron Sahr spoke of his National Experiences. I didn't get the impression that Duke (Wanapum Ebony Comet's Duke) was difficult to work with. Many of the Wanapum Ebony's comet dogs were in this area since her owner Bob Van derWilt lived near Nicolette, MN an area close to a great duck hunting area.


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## john h. (Oct 15, 2007)

I own Riparian's Give 'Em Hell Harry. He is out of the same breeding as Riparian's Windfall. (Blackwater Rudy X Riparian's Mariah)

This dog is wonderful in training. Unfortunately, he has yet to Title.

I have been told by more than one person that he is the finest gun dog they have ever hunted over.

I also am very familiar with Cori. Feel free to contact me with any questions.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

It sounds like those of us who have Rudy offspring that love to train are indeed lucky to have gotten "the good attitude" gene.

Mine loves every minute of every training session...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I think generally that would be the consensus on Rudy pups. If anything, Rudy pups often have a reputation of being bright and sensitive, which is the type of dog I enjoy working with. 

Check with folks who've had pups from Little Duke in particular, and from Stoney (FC Lakeside's Rolling Stone - a Duke pup). There are exceptions, but he was awful to train, as were several others I had sent to me out of both Duke and Stoney. I picked up derby points with a few of them, and won Qualifyings with a couple, but they were just too tempermental for all age development to be worth it even though talented. And they weren't line bred.

I think Rudy was a good sire, and that it's a line worthy of pursuing. I just don't think it would be wise to line breed. It's really up to the individual. I just can't imagine lining up that strain and expecting not to have its downside surface as a trait in the pups.

Evan


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Wow Evan. You gave an objective, honest opinion on the quality of a dog you do not own and no one has crawled up your A$$ about it. Just shows the amount of respect you have with the viewing audience here. Thank you, Evan for being HONEST with your assessment of this line of dogs. 

John
________
 vapir oxygen vaporizer


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

I have a Rudy dog that has lottie and lean mac on the bottom. She is the hardest working dog I have ever had. She would train all day if would let her. 100% all the time. That is the only problem 100% all the time!!!


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

now that everyone is on the subject, what about a lean mac x dust devil's desert duk double up??? anyone have experience with one of them?


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

lillusk3 said:


> now that everyone is on the subject, what about a lean mac x dust devil's desert duk double up??? anyone have experience with one of them?


Now what does that have to do with Rudy??


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

Give a great dog his due!!


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

born2retrieve said:


> Now what does that have to do with Rudy??


nothing.. i was only asking if that line has been linebred and how the pups were


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Wow Evan. You gave an objective, honest opinion on the quality of a dog you do not own and no one has crawled up your A$$ about it. Just shows the amount of respect you have with the viewing audience here. Thank you, Evan for being HONEST with your assessment of this line of dogs.
> 
> John


I agree, I don't think anyone minds an honest assesment, and of course Evan does have credibility. The thing that always gets lost in linebreeding conversations,in my opinion, is the good trait bad trait scenario. That's why anyone linebreeding anything is always looing for the good outcross. Enhance those things that are most desieable and mitigating those that are not.
This is a good discussion.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

born2retrieve said:


> I have a Rudy dog that has lottie and lean mac on the bottom. She is the hardest working dog I have ever had. She would train all day if would let her. 100% all the time. That is the only problem 100% all the time!!!


What a wonderful cross! I've recommended Rudy to a number of people over the years, and still would - for an outcross breeding. Yours is especially nice. Great bitch line quality, genetically.

Evan


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

Evan said:


> What a wonderful cross! I've recommended Rudy to a number of people over the years, and still would - for an outcross breeding. Yours is especially nice. Great bitch line quality, genetically.
> 
> Evan


THANKS!! I hope to have a master on her this year. I like Rudy breedings and would like to breed my Ebenstar James bitch to Cory.


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

I just had a litter of pups out of Cori and my Cosmo bitch, Abby. Her mom is Lean Mac's Lil Devil (Lean Mac X Ms Costalot). Abby has a GREAT training attitude. She's always ready to work. I'm hoping to get a couple of her pups in FT homes. I can't wait to see how they turn out.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

I don't get it... 

If you like Rudy, why not breed to Rudy - the sire of the dog you like? If you breed to a son, then you have that dog's bitch line with other traits to consider.

Rudy is still enjoying life at about 13...two great attributes to consider - longevity and good general health. 

I personally have not seen a Rudy offspring that has not been ready to train anytime, anywhere...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

SueLab said:


> I don't get it...
> 
> If you like Rudy, why not breed to Rudy - the sire of the dog you like? If you breed to a son, then you have that dog's bitch line with other traits to consider.
> 
> ...


How many were line-bred Rudy?

Evan


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

born2retrieve said:


> THANKS!! I hope to have a master on her this year. I like Rudy breedings and would like to breed my Ebenstar James bitch to Cory.


My comment was in response to the above post (not a linebreeding). It was advice that I got from someone who is an very experienced breeder. I thought that it was worth sharing...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

That's fine, but were any of those nice eager dogs line bred Rudy? 

I'm not saying that such a breeding couldn't produce some nice dogs. I'm saying that line breeding bears certain risks of concentrating either good _or_ bad traits. So I'm curious to know if anyone has had experience with a line-bred Rudy pup, and how were they?

Evan


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

NAFC FC Little Duke of Fargo line breeding 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sire: GMHR Kelley's Wild Weasel MH NAFC FC Little Duke of Fargo X Ganderview's Sassy Sue)
OFA Hips: LR-59381G34M, CERF: LR -24519/99-91

Dam: RockErin Salty Pawginolla JH (FC AFC Blackwater Rudy X FC CAFC Brovic's Morejon's Moxie). OFA Hips: LR-137369E36F, Elbows: LR-EL20790F36, CERF: LR-31416

Litter due mid-December. For photos and pedigree visit www.rockerinkennels.com or call 405-743-9475 for more information

I am not promoting this litter...I just ran across it in a search. Perhaps the results of this breeding might be of interest to the person who was interested in line breeding...some of the best info comes from those who have dared...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Excellent, Nancy! That one looks to have a fighting chance of a positive outcome, too. Duke is pushed back three generations on the bitch side through some very fine quality animals!

Thanks!

Evan


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## Siouxz (Apr 12, 2004)

Actually, about half of the Open dogs on Bill's truck at Blackwater, are out of Rudy right now and not one of them has a bad training attitude. Rudy has sired a National Derby Champion and a National Champion (not many sires can boast that)and many wonderful dogs running in many different venues, as well as hunting dogs. I myself own 2, you could not buy them from me. I believe that Rudy had not one but two sons finish the National Amateur this year, again not something every sire can boast. Rudy was an incredibly talented competitor as well as an intelligent animal. 

Rudy's owner just told me that he has just done his first ever line breeding with Rudy so the jury is obviously out on what would actually be produced. Why don't we just wait and see?


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

Siouxz said:


> Rudy's owner just told me that he has just done his first ever line breeding with Rudy so the jury is obviously out on what would actually be produced. Why don't we just wait and see?



Could you give me the info on this litter, please? I would be interested in following the progress of this litter. With my girl only being 7 month old now, and won't be bred until she has her MHR, we have plenty of time to study the results.

Thanks,
Tom Murphy


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Siouxz said:


> Rudy's owner just told me that he has just done his first ever line breeding with Rudy so the jury is obviously out on what would actually be produced. Why don't we just wait and see?


That would explain why I wasn't aware of any Rudy line breedings. I hope it works out well. He was a fine dog and a good sire. I sure loved his dad!

EvanG


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

SueLab said:


> I don't get it...
> 
> If you like Rudy, why not breed to Rudy - the sire of the dog you like? If you breed to a son, then you have that dog's bitch line with other traits to consider.
> 
> ...


Is Rudy still doing natural breedings? I guess that is one reason I was thinking Cori. I am not a fan of doing AI breedings. This would be the last breeding for my bitch because of age. I would also get all yellow pups and possible fox red out of Cori. I would like to keep a fox red out of the litter.


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## Siouxz (Apr 12, 2004)

No, Rudy is no longer doing natural breedings, it would have to be an AI. He has a lot of really nice yellow sons on the ground. Cutter, Cori, a couple of sons at Blackwater; Tonka and Mike, just to name a few. All have great training attitudes and are really nice animals.

The line breeding is a bitch, owned by Jason Roessner out of Omaha, bred to Cori. Her name is Mini and she is out of a bitch who is out of a Rudy daughter bred to Ritz, so it is not a real tight line breeding. It is several generations removed, Rudy would be the paternal grandfather and maternal great, great grandfather? Something like that. Mini is a high roller. She runs mainly hunt tests and Jason trains with Brad Lewis. Should be really nice babies.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

Siouxz said:


> The line breeding is a bitch, owned by Jason Roessner out of Omaha, bred to Cori. Her name is Mini and she is out of a bitch who is out of a Rudy daughter bred to Ritz, so it is not a real tight line breeding. It is several generations removed, Rudy would be the paternal grandfather and maternal great, great grandfather? Something like that. Mini is a high roller. She runs mainly hunt tests and Jason trains with Brad Lewis. Should be really nice babies.


This should be a real nice breeding. I have a pup out of Mini X Magic breeding. He is 13 months old now and has shown a lot of potential. Don't let the MH behind Mini's name fool you. I truly believe (I'm not the only one) that if she was on a FT truck she would have an FC in front of her name. 

BTW Mini is out of Ritz X Ruff River Rudy's Trudy MH. Ritz of course is out of Lean Mac and Trudy is out of Blackwater Rudy.


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## jburn34 (May 12, 2006)

Evan said:


> I've known Bobby George for decades. Bobby has spent many years working for and with Bill Eckett, who had Duke for most of his career. I use the story to illustrate the attitude problem so common to the line (Little Duke and on back).
> 
> Bobby told me Bill would go from crate to crate during the usual day's training, and he'd open Duke's. He'd look at him and say "He's not ready yet", close the door and come back later. Duke would sulk in the corner. He hated to train.
> 
> ...


Uh oh....Mine's got a little Rudy/Bart II in him...

But actually he has a great attitude, and they're a few generations upstream. The main thing that made me laugh was talking about holding out...my dog has his moments of sand-bagging.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

The Ritz & Rudy(daughter) cross seems to work real well. David Maronge bred his Rudy(daugther) "Sunny" to Ritz twice with very good results. I own one!!!! Sunny has produced with every thing she has been bred to. Here is a link to her pedigree
www.gooddoginfo.com/gdc/Asp/viewpedigree.asp?DogNo=67765
Sunny has produced two titled field trial dogs. My dog has 8 open points and 12 Am. points with the open win. Other litters with multi derby & Qual placements.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

jburn34 said:


> Uh oh....Mine's got a little Rudy/Bart II in him...
> 
> But actually he has a great attitude, and they're a few generations upstream. The main thing that made me laugh was talking about holding out...my dog has his moments of sand-bagging.


To have a dog with Rudy/Bart II in him is a _good_ thing. This is at least the fourth post I've offered promoting breeding to this line. I've only cautioned about line breeding due to training attitude issues common to dogs behind these two in the pedigree. It isn't taboo, or an automatic curse. It's a word of caution to the wise.

I have never been around a dog with a better training attitude than Bart had, and Rudy was also a fine dog to train. They weren't problem dogs at all. They each have thrown dogs with fine attitudes, and all of them that I personally know of were outcrosses. 

When I was a pro, even if I'd had a terrible day with the truck load of dogs, all I had to do it to go open the kennel door with the name "Bart" on it, and my day got better! He was always ready to go, always happy to work and train, and almost always on his game; the picture of consistency. I had two other dogs on the truck related to him as grandkids of Duke that were very talented, but that had very difficult training attitudes. I don't hold the Bart/Rudy line responsible for that, I'm just reasonably aware of that trait, and that it was a defining characteristic of Duke.

If you have a nice bitch with good genetics, like the one mentioned earlier (a Rudy dog that has *lottie* and *lean mac* on the bottom), Rudy, or one of his titled sons, would be a very wise choice. Lots of good to give in that line. 

I haven't ever thought line breeding was a good thing for inexperienced breeders to take part in, generally. Sound breeding practices, like sound training practices, take time and study to learn.

Evan


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Evan; If Rudy hasnever been line bred, how can you issue a warning about it?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Evan; If Rudy has never been line bred, how can you issue a warning about it?


To quote Rex Carr from an old audio-taped seminar; "Well, a direct answer would be because I know too d***** much about dogs not to". That is to say that one of the many things experience has taught me about line breeding, as a general practice, is that it has two tendencies:

It may concentrate the more desirable qualities in the line. That's a good thing!
It may also concentrate, or at least produce with some consistency, certain physical or behavioral traits that are undesirable.
Line breeding is a method aimed toward concentrating genetic traits in a specific line. If it's a good working line that has no strong negatives - behavioral, or in terms of health - it can surely produce high quality pups.

If a line offers a known risk that represents a special downside, you may want to outcross the dogs for 3 or 4 generations. While there are no certainties that any of these negatives will show up in the get of these breedings, it must be reasonably recognized that the risk is increased in a line breeding. Why is this such a problem to understand?

Evan


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Please read the above entry by Bill Eckett...I think that since he trained all of the animals mentioned and discussed by those of us who only know about 1 or 2 dogs from the line, everyone should learn alot by reading his post. I am glad that he took time out of his schedule to give this board some helpful and fact based information.


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## Ron Ainley (Dec 1, 2003)

We out crossed a Blackwater Rudy bitch (FC-AFC Blackwater Ruby II) To FC-AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger. The breeding brought together several outstanding bitch lines. The key line included Scans Nick of Time.

Of the 8 living puppies 7 are all age Qualified and being trained as all age prospects.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> I haven't ever thought line breeding was a good thing for inexperienced breeders to take part in, generally. Sound breeding practices, like sound training practices, take time and study to learn.
> Evan


 This statement is worth repeating given the trend I have observed in new field Lab breeders in the last five years.


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## jburn34 (May 12, 2006)

Evan said:


> it has two tendencies:
> 
> It may concentrate the more desirable qualities in the line. That's a good thing!
> It may also concentrate, or at least produce with some consistency, certain physical or behavioral traits that are undesirable.
> ...


Evan,

Your posts seem pretty logical and sound to me. I am not at all an expert in dog breeding...that's why I'm here...learning.

However, I know a thing or two about genetics. I agree with the possibility in a line breeding to concentrate bad traits. Also, you have the strong possibility of taking recessive mutations that are not manifested in the ancestors and causing them to manifest themself in the offspring of the line breeding. Same reason certain subpopulations of humans experience their own set of genetic diseases. Just my $0.02.

Guess like Evan said proper research and knowledge is a must before a unproven line breeding...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ron Ainley said:


> We out crossed a Blackwater Rudy bitch (FC-AFC Blackwater Ruby II) To FC-AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger. The breeding brought together several outstanding bitch lines. The key line included Scans Nick of Time.
> 
> Of the 8 living puppies 7 are all age Qualified and being trained as all age prospects.


Ron,

That really looks good! I love all that strength in the bitch line! I think Ranger was a terrific choice for this very strong looking outcross.

Evan


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

I've been watching this thread, and the related thread started by the Ecketts, hoping that Evan would come on and elucidate,explain, and or apologize for his numerous warnings on linebreeding of Blackwater Rudy. Due to my lack of computer expertise on quoting, highlighting, cutting & pasting and the like I will have to do this in a disjointed manner


Evan said:


> Tom,
> 
> I strongly suggest you think this through carefully. I co-owned FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II. Picked him out of a litter and raised him at home. What we all would hope is that through line breeding you may get consistent qualities like he had, but with stronger water acumen.
> 
> ...


You seem to denigrate Rudy's line both backwards & presumably into the future based on his link to his grandsire NAFC-FC The Little Duke of Fargo whom you say was ";an absolutely miserable dog to train due to his attitude. He came by that attitude genetically. His line is infamous for it" Mighty strong words about any dog Mr Graham particularly a National Champion. Since you never trained or owned this dog where do you get the knowledge to express such negative opinions about an NAFC-FC? Lets compare your Quote about this NAFC-FC to what Bill Eckett, the primary trainer and handler of this same dog had to say; and I quote ";Bill felt he was a very keen puppy with a great training attitude and loads of natural ability" Seems to dissuade any idea of "genetic bad attitude" This raises a myriad of questions in my mind, but first and foremost would be this; Why would you purchase a direct descendant of this "absolutely miserable dog to train due to his attitude" which he came by genetically; yet so strongly advise,[in 5 separate posts]against linebreeding Rudy. In the breeding proposed by Tom, that you advise against, the "absolutely miserable dog to train" would be 5 generations removed on the dams side and 4 generations removed on the sire's side? I find it even more puzzling that you so strongly advise against the line breeding in light of the fact that you stated that both Bart and Rudy were wonderful dogs that had great training attitudes. Additionally it appears that the first line breeding on Rudy just occurred, so there can't be any examples to draw on


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Evan said:


> I've known Bobby George for decades. Bobby has spent many years working for and with Bill Eckett, who had Duke for most of his career. I use the story to illustrate the attitude problem so common to the line (Little Duke and on back).
> 
> Bobby told me Bill would go from crate to crate during the usual day's training, and he'd open Duke's. He'd look at him and say "He's not ready yet", close the door and come back later. Duke would sulk in the corner. He hated to train.
> 
> ...


 Evan, As an attorney I would point out that a scenario where, ;X told me that such and such happened is called Hearsay. In a court of law there is a prohibition against the use of Hearsay testimony. There are some rare exceptions to the hearsay rule such as Excited Utterance, Dying Exclamation, and some others. These exceptions wouldn't apply here since this supposed conversation would have happened at least 10 years ago, additionally I know these parties were very much alive Thursday evening. There is a sound reason for the prohibition against hearsay testimony, and that reason is because it is patently unreliable, and can't be subjected to cross examination. The supposed conversation you refer to here is more along the lines of X told me that Y said that such and such happened. This is Double Hearsay, wherein you added in another layer of unreliability, with two layers that can't be subjected to cross examination. Double Hearsay is so patently unreliable that it is never admissible. I can only assume you would try to use this double hearsay scenario to buttress your contention that linebreeding on Rudy is inadvisable presumably because his grandsire NAFC-FC The Little Duke of Fargo was a miserable dog who was from a line infamous for having with a genetically linked and passed on poor training attitude. Luckily, we can cut through the haze and confusion of Hearsay and Double Hearsay, since the Ecketts graciously cleared that up with their post on the other thread, and we can get it directly from the horses mouth, so to speak in a quote referring to NAFC-FC Little Duke of Fargo. "Bill felt he was a very keen puppy with a great training attitude and loads of natural ability" " To use such spurious, he said she said type, scenarios to slam a great dog and its line including many other great dogs, is mean spirited and irresponsible at best, and despicable and actionable at worst.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Evan said:


> To quote Rex Carr from an old audio-taped seminar; "Well, a direct answer would be because I know too d***** much about dogs not to". That is to say that one of the many things experience has taught me about line breeding, as a general practice, is that it has two tendencies:
> It may concentrate the more desirable qualities in the line. That's a good thing!
> It may also concentrate, or at least produce with some consistency, certain physical or behavioral traits that are undesirable.
> Line breeding is a method aimed toward concentrating genetic traits in a specific line. If it's a good working line that has no strong negatives - behavioral, or in terms of health - it can surely produce high quality pups.
> ...


This post has 2 quotes from the great Rex Carr. To the first quote my only response is....Really? The last one below your signature line is the one I really think needs to be focused on. As to your last paragraph where you ask me and the rest of us slow to understand peons "why is this such a problem to understand"? I would just point out that the original proposed breeding asked about by Tom would be an outcross of more than your suggested 3 or 4 generations from the supposed problem dog that "offers a known risk that represents a special downside" Additionally as I pointed out in my earlier posts, I'll take Bill Eckett's word for the fact that "known risk"genetic bad attitude dog wasn't what you portrayed Now I've got to go to bed, there will be a little short bus here to take me to school in a few hours


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

WOW! It's amazing how touchy some folks get when they think that their dog hero has been slighted. Lighten up. One man gave his opinion on the possible outcome of a LINEBREEDING on a particular line and some of you act like he shot the Easter Bunny. I think that if I were planning this type of breeding, it would give me lots to think about. I would probably call Evan, as well as Bobby and Bill to try to get all the information (and opinion) that I could from people who knew many of the dogs in that line.
Or I guess I could come here and get my advice from all of the folks who have a 7-month old Rudy pup who is "awesome". 
The beauty of these forums is that you can get some good advice and hear the opinons of some very knowlegable people. The other side of the coin is that anybody can post, regardless of their level of knowlege, and you have to sift through the chaff to find the wheat.
It's funny how many of those who are just getting started seem to latch onto a particular dog or trainer (usually the sire of their pup or the trainer that they use) and stand ready to defend their honor and argue thier infalibility to the death.
Those who have been around for a while understand that there is no perfect dog or perfect trainier and just don't get worked up about that kind of thing.


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

I agree with Matt. I'd also like to thank both Bill and Evan for their contributions to the forum and to this discussion. I don't have to agree with either one of them to appreciate their points of view in this discussion.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Hookset said:


> The other side of the coin is that anybody can post, regardless of their level of knowlege, and you have to sift through the chaff to find the wheat.


And therein lies the problem. Many people don't know who are the wheat, and who are the chaff. Who is best to speak about line breeding Blackwater Rudy and the ancestry? Can a young man with minimal dog experience be the one to pronounce a litter too expensive? People come to this site seeking knowledge, and may not get it. The Ecketts are good dog people with years of experience, and the success to back it up. They didn't post here to promote their kennel or a product, just to give background information. And for that, I thank them. I found it fascinating.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> Tom we had a yellow (Rudy x AFC Abe's Magic Maggie) and he was a little too soft, held grudges. If you scolded him in the house he wouldn't look away from you or on his own sit facing the corner.


 
This is a good point Richard. Let's not forget what the bitch brings to the table. With Cori, you had Rudy x. FC-AFC Dutchman's Gold Midnite Eve, a bitch who was always ready to train and trial. Or, get a biscuit!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think that the standard statement that we welcome all information, because there is no such thing as a bad opinion, 

and its corollary, we as readers are capable of sifting through all this information and discerning its relative merits

is a bunch of garbage

It is easy enough to say ... well all that is happening is that people are sharing their opinions. So, what’s the harm?

Two things:
1) Would you be so nonchalant if people were talking about your dog? (I doubt it); 
2) And what if the opinions were based upon innuendo rather than facts?
Here is what Evan wrote

I strongly suggest you think this through carefully. I co-owned FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II. Picked him out of a litter and raised him at home. What we all would hope is that through line breeding you may get consistent qualities like he had, but with stronger water acumen.
*However, you must recognize that he is a son of NAFC-FC The Little Duke of Fargo; an absolutely miserable dog to train due to his attitude. He came by that attitude genetically. His line is infamous for it.* Lots of talent, but very hard to train. 

I'm being very honest about this. I loved Bart, but I think his wonderful attitude toward training was a gift from his mom (FC-AFC Rocky Mountain Star II). You can do better for a bitch line. Do something that will compliment your dog's best traits and perhaps strengthen any weak areas.

I wouldn't try to scare anyone off of breeding to Rudy or that line. There are fine qualities to be gained there. I would not line breed it, though.

And then

Believe me, Bart was never ever like that. He and Lucy were pretty much the high point of every training day. Always ready, always wanting to work. *But you can't deny genetics and their potential influence on future generations*. It's a crap shoot, but why gamble with line breeding?

And

I think Rudy was a good sire, and that it's a line worthy of pursuing. I just don't think it would be wise to line breed. It's really up to the individual. *I just can't imagine lining up that strain and expecting not to have its downside surface as a trait in the pups.*

In summary, what did Evan say?
1) Little Duke of Fargo was a miserable dog to train
2) Little Duke of Fargo’s attitude was genetic, not man made
3) Little Duke’s miserable training attitude will be passed onto to his descendants
4) Rudy is a descendant
5) If you line breed on Rudy, you should expect to get puppies with miserable training attitude
All in all, a pretty unattractive picture

Compare this to what Bill Eckett had to say about the Little Duke of Fargo

Little Duke of Fargo was a 7 month old pup when Bill Eckett got him from Phil Brown for 3 months in winter. Phil had done a wonderful job and had obviously spent a lot of time with him. *Bill felt he was a very keen puppy with a great training attitude and loads of natural ability. *That would have been 1984-85. Later that year, Duke was sent away to a total collar training program. At that particular time in dog training history there were collar programs and non collar programs. Some of the early collar programs used a high level of intensity even though variable intensity had been introduced. The theory at the time was a dog that was to be conditioned with the collar had to be able to deal with maximum pressure to be truly collar conditioned. A lot of dogs were lost in basic collar
conditioning at that time because they couldn’t handle the high intensity of the collar. Today we know the value of the variable intensity and how much easier it is to train the more sensitive dogs. *Little Duke went through one of these high intensity programs but not without repercussions*. At around 20 months of age Little Duke came up for sale. At that time a client of Bill Eckett’s bought him and the dog came back to Bill for training. *Little Duke did have some attitude issues on blind work the rest of his life*, but not on marks. His strength was at trials, he was a true game player. Clearly, he was successful.

And this is what Bill said about Blackwater Bart, Rudy’s sire
Blackwater Bart was acquired by a client of Bill Eckett’s at about 2 1/2 years of age. *Bart had a great training attitude and was a very natural marking and lining dog*. His issues were always control on his blinds, especially in water. He was a very high maintenance dog to correctly prepare for field trials. His father, Little Duke, was very low maintenance. Bart was bred very few times, but was a good producer. He died at an early age or he might have been more popular as a sire as his get became more successful. 

In short, what Bill Eckett told us was this:
1) He had Little Duke of Fargo as a very young dog
2) Little of Fargo had a "great training attitude"
3) Little Duke of Fargo’s "great training attitude" was destroyed because of a very tough collar program
4) Blackwater Bart, Duke’s son, had a "great training attitude"
Now, when you compare what Bill had to say to what Evan had to say

What do you think of the merits - and factual underpinnings of Evan’s comment that "I just can't imagine lining up that strain and expecting not to have its downside surface as a trait in the pups"?

How responsible do you think that opinion is?

And how would you feel if you were Dave Harter, the owner of Blackwater Rudy?

Then tell me again, how there is no such thing as bad information on the internet

Ted


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Ted,

Thanks. That was a very good post. Sometimes what seems fair is truly not until you see the other half.

John
________
Honda CM125 specifications


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

bump for SmokinJoe


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## SmokinJoe (Jun 10, 2005)

smillerdvm said:


> bump for SmokinJoe


Any "fresh" idea's you want to add?


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Here's something fresh...

Cobbler filling: 
4 cups peeled and sliced fresh peaches (blanch in boiling water for 30 seconds to remove the skins) 
3/4 cup brown sugar 
1 teaspoon cinnamon 
1 teaspoon vanilla 
1 tablespoon flour 

Cobbler crust: 
1 cup flour 
1 teaspoon baking powder 
1/2 teaspoon baking soda 
3 tablespoons brown sugar 
4 tablespoons unsalted butter, cut into small pieces 
2/3 cup buttermilk
1 tablespoon brown sugar, for topping 
Whipped cream

Preheat the oven to 425 degrees F.
Generously butter a 1 1/2-quart shallow baking dish. Place the sliced peaches in the dish and sprinkle with brown sugar, cinnamon, vanilla, and flour. Mix gently and spread evenly again. Bake for 10 minutes.

Meanwhile combine all dry ingredients for cobbler crust in a bowl. Cut in the butter with a pastry cutter or your fingers, to make the texture like coarse crumbs. Add buttermilk and stir to form a soft dough.

Remove fruit from oven and drop rounded spoonfuls of dough on top. Sprinkle with last tablespoon of brown sugar and return to oven. Bake until fruit is bubbly and crust topping is golden brown, about 20 minutes. Serve warm with whipped cream.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Buzz said:


> Here's something fresh...
> 
> Cobbler filling:
> 4 cups peeled and sliced fresh peaches (blanch in boiling water for 30 seconds to remove the skins)
> ...


Buzz, I'm going to see your recipe and raise you my Spaghetti sauce recipe. I am pretty confident if done right you will not find one better!!!!

1 29oz tomato puree use Contadina if possible
1 12oz tonato paste use Contadina if possible
1 1/3 cans 29 oz water, use the puree can
1 12oz can of water using paste can
1/4 cup Olive oil
1/4 cup Veg. oil
1/2 lb salt pork
1 tbsp dried parsley
2 1/2 tsp Oregano
1/8 tsp red pepper flakes
2 med. onions
6 Garlic cloves, minced
1 1/2 tbsp salt, do not add less
1/4 tsp pepper
2 packages mild or hot Italian sausage, cut into 1 or 11/2" pieces

1) Brown sausage & salt pork in large kettle over medium heat with onions, garlic and both oils, about 30-45 minutes

2) Add Puree and 1 1/3 cans of water using the Puree can (add a little less if you want a thicker sauce) bring this to boil.

3) Add the paste along with 1 can of water using the paste can. At this time also add your seasonings.

4) reduce heat to a very low simmer, stirring often so you do not burn.

5) COOK THIS FOR A MINIMUM OF 8 HOURS

6) Remove the block of salt pork during the final 30 minutes

ENJOY!!!!!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Why, thank you! Mmmm, Spaghetti!

Actually, looking at it - I bet that is good.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Give it a try!!! You will not be disappointed. It comes directly from my 100% Italian mother-in-law.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Bumping this thread.....

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

I decided to bump this thread. 

Didn't think about it at the time, but when I was constructing a pedigree today, it dawned on me that I am actually working two dogs that are linebred Rudy.

Rudy is the g-grandfather on the dam side and the grandfather on the sire's side of these dogs.

The two dogs are littermates.

One has been an extremely early maturer, crazy about retrieving, very tractable, bright, intelligent dog and is very very focussed and has been from 8 weeks of age.

The second is a bit slower to mature. But compared to other dogs her age, mostly fits right in. Compared to her sister, slower to mature. She is crazy about retrieving, loves to work, very tractable, not quite as focussed. She doesn't appear to be quite as intelligent as her sister but then she's really right in the norm for most pups her age. 

The breeder had emailed me about whether I thought he should repeat the breeding. I recommended yes. Nothing in either dog has stood out as something I don't like including training attitude or anything else. 

WRL


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## drbobsd (Feb 21, 2004)

Just wondering how any of the line bred Rudy pups are doing?


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## Alex (Jan 22, 2008)

Bump for Mr Nutt


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Alex said:


> Bump for Mr Nutt


Banned account for Mr. Alex.

Dude, you need to phone me and start off with your real name. 

I asked you to knock it off and take it private. So did at least one of the RTF moderators.

217-454-0361 call me please and stop the cowardly nonsense.

Chris


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