# Pricing of pups in ads



## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

Why the mystery? Why do some (a lot) of people posting pups for sale feel the need to not include how much they are asking? To some of us that can't afford forking out over a grand for a dog it makes wading through the ads a little quicker if we can simply scroll to the bottom and see what the asking price is. Instead of having to go to their web sight, (where they still don't tell you) then send a e-mail, or call. 

Sorry for my first post being a rant, but I'm looking to buy a pup, the reason I joined here, and it's a bit of a turn off reading a ad and then having to jump through hoops just to find a kennel is out of my price range.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

The initial purchase price is generally the cheapest part of owning a retriever. A working retriever is a substantial investment and commitment. Good luck in your search.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

let me clarify, I have owned a "working" lab, a hunting lab, not a field trial lab. I have owned dogs of many strips my whole life. I really am not asking for opinions about the "cost" of a dog, or a "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" reply. Not asking for a reply at all. Maybe I'm the only one, but I find it off setting that a person would offer something up for sale and make it a game of sorts to find out what the price is they are asking.

And for us that want a good quality hunting dog, there isn't much cost to owning a dog other than food, and regular vet visits. I have trained my own dogs, so don't need to pay a trainer, don't compete in trials so no need for entry fees. I know food adds up over time, but it doesn't cost a grand all at once. same reason most people make payments of cars and houses, paying a little every month for food is a lot easier than paying for it all at once.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Another reason price isnt placed in the ad may well be what the intentions of the buyer are. AKC registrations are either a limited or full registration. Some breeders charge more for a full registration. And I imagine most of the breeders here on RTF are a bit selective of whom they sell there pups to, phone calls and emails are the first part of the interview for adoption of the pup so to speak.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

Charles C. said:


> The initial purchase price is generally the cheapest part of owning a retriever. A working retriever is a substantial investment and commitment. Good luck in your search.


just went to your site, beats the heck out of me how much your pups go for. I see 300$ deposit, but how much more when I pick up the dog, 1000, 2000, why would I even waste my time sending you a email asking if you are not honest enough with your ads to put the price on it? Honest question. Would you buy a car like that? Hey come look at our trucks, $300 deposit and you can have a brand new truck. I just don't get it I guess.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

thelast2 said:


> Another reason price isnt placed in the ad may well be what the intentions of the buyer are. AKC registrations are either a limited or full registration. Some breeders charge more for a full registration. And I imagine most of the breeders here on RTF are a bit selective of whom they sell there pups to, phone calls and emails are the first part of the interview for adoption of the pup so to speak.


Kind of makes sense, but I sold pups before and put in the ad, xxx$ with papers and XX without. Really didn't take that much time to do it that way.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Free
I see you just joined, welcome. RTF has been around for a long while and is a fantastic resource for the hunting, testing, and field trial world. Any place with a history also has habits, trends, customs, and traditions that come about over time for various reasons. 
One reason a lot of people don't put a price is because no matter how good the breeding some people will take exception with it. Some just want to keep as private as possible. Some price dogs in the litter at different prices and it is just easier not to list each. Some people will sell the same dog to different people for different prices. In today's world it takes a few seconds to reply to someone by email and if they list a phone number you can get pricing and more from the horses mouth. Who doesn't have long distance included in their cell service?
Enjoy the resource. Be happy you can find a great list of some of the best available breedings in the country. Don't sweat the small stuff around here.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I have only had 1 litter in my life & ended up keeping the singleton that was produced so I have zero experience with selling pups. But I will say that I had a litter ad up with no price. I guess when I am looking for a pup, I am looking for that rare dog that can compete. Price is of little concern. My hope was that like minded individuals see the ad and be willing to take a chance on a pup. I didn't have any interest in dealing with bargain hunters.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Free
> I see you just joined, welcome. RTF has been around for a long while and is a fantastic resource for the hunting, testing, and field trial world. Any place with a history also has habits, trends, customs, and traditions that come about over time for various reasons.
> One reason a lot of people don't put a price is because no matter how good the breeding some people will take exception with it. Some just want to keep as private as possible. Some price dogs in the litter at different prices and it is just easier not to list each. Some people will sell the same dog to different people for different prices. In today's world it takes a few seconds to reply to someone by email and if they list a phone number you can get pricing and more from the horses mouth. Who doesn't have long distance included in their cell service?
> Enjoy the resource. Be happy you can find a great list of some of the best available breedings in the country. Don't sweat the small stuff around here.


Good answer, Bullgator.

I also wish that more ads listed the price of pups, but I can understand the many reasons why breeders do not list the price. 

There are some breeders here on RTF who do list the price or the deposit they require indicates the price. If the pups are bred for field trial potential and listed as being field trial prospects and the deposit is $500, you can guesstimate that the price of the pup is more than $1,000. 

Helen


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## dgengr (Nov 28, 2012)

Free Range,

Be carfull on this forum about talking about the purchase price of a dog....... As you can see some people get all worked up on trying to save some money on the purchase cost of the dog.... If you cant pay a grand or two for a dog you shouldnt have one........;-) J/K 

As stated before many breeders price is based upon your intentions with the dog.... The bad news is a large majoity of the breeders on this forum have dogs with great bloodlines, in turn will be more expensive pups. watch you local paper and craigslist. there will be tons of pups from hunting families on them. Most of those type pups will be in the $500 and lower price range. You could check your local shelters and if you get lucky they sometimes have pure breeds. I know two guys that i duck hunt with that have pure breed labs from the shelter, they got them as pups. Both of these dogs are great hunting dogs. three days ago i had the pleasure to watch one of those dogs do a 150+ yard blind through some bad stuff.... "impressive to me for any dog"...

Where are you located i acctualy know where a couple litters are for sale?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

a few years back, when my brother was in the process of moving his medical practice to the NW and getting back into the FT game, he and his wife attended a field trial, a well known trialer had a litter of pups on the grounds and was looking to sell them...so they looked at the pups and asked about the breeding, then asked "how much for the pups?"...the breeders response was "you can't afford one" ..my brother just walked away and laughed..later when they were formally introduced and he realized that my brother was a doctor the breeder asked "would you still like one of my pups"...my brother with a wry smile replied "No, I probably cant afford one"


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

> The bad news is a large majority of the breeders on this forum have dogs with great bloodlines, in turn will be more expensive pups. watch you local paper and craigslist. there will be tons of pups from hunting families on them. Most of those type pups will be in the $500 and lower price range. You could check your local shelters and if you get lucky they sometimes have pure breeds. I know two guys that i duck hunt with that have pure breed labs from the shelter, they got them as pups.


So Free Range is getting advice from Free Lunch?...j/k (s/o)

MG


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I have sold quite a few puppies and started dogs from RTF classifieds.New clients and past clients call me to help them find a quality puppy to have trained.They generally have no problem with price.If the litter or started dog is so special that the complete info is not offered in the ad,I skip over it and find one that is.I don't charge anything for this service,or for finding a nice started dog,so jumping through hoops is not going to happen. Always have wondered why ads for trailers and equipment rarely have a picture.Sometimes a boatload of posts asking for a picture is taking up room on RTF thats not necessary.


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Buzz said:


> I have only had 1 litter in my life & ended up keeping the singleton that was produced so I have zero experience with selling pups. But I will say that I had a litter ad up with no price. I guess when I am looking for a pup, I am looking for that rare dog that can compete. Price is of little concern. My hope was that like minded individuals see the ad and be willing to take a chance on a pup. I didn't have any interest in dealing with bargain hunters.


Same thing here except ended up with no pups.. It's amazing how many calls were only "how much and where at". Without asking about health clearances or the breeding itself.

Free Range, I'm curious as to why you would sell pups with and without papers? If a breeder chooses to not put a price in their ad thats their choice to do so. A breeder doesn't have to sell you a pup just as much as you don't have to buy one.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

Matt Duncan said:


> Same thing here except ended up with no pups.. It's amazing how many calls were only "how much and where at". Without asking about health clearances or the breeding itself.
> 
> Free Range, I'm curious as to why you would sell pups with and without papers? If a breeder chooses to not put a price in their ad thats their choice to do so. A breeder doesn't have to sell you a pup just as much as you don't have to buy one.


Not hard to understand, how much and where at, because if it's out of my price range I really don't care about the breeding, where at because I can't afford to fly around the country looking at dogs. I would like to see the parents before I buy a pup, I just funny that way I guess. I stopped to look at some labs the other day, talked to the lady, she told me all about the titles their adult dogs have and the breeding and so on and so on. I walk around back and ask myself where are the labs, her dogs looked like a bunch of mutts, didn't even look like a lab IMO. So again I like to look at dogs first. 

And pups without papers, because I don't run with the FT guys so I don't rub shoulders with people that don't think twice about shelling out a couple grand for a dog. WHen I had my bitch breed I wasn't trying to make any money, just wanted a pup out of her, so I offered the pups to anyone. If they couldn't afford the cost I would let them have one without papers. For someone wanting a dog they could breed and sell pups they would have to pay a higher price to get the papers. That was my thinking, I didn't know about partial registration at the time. 

Anyhow, looks like I'm in over my head here, this forum must be for the wealthy guys and gals that like to brag about the cost of their dogs. I'll hang around and learn what I can anyway. 

Oh and I'm in SE KS for the odd chance someone reads this that isn't looking down their nose at us "bargain shoppers"


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I too dont like it when price is not listed. Dont see any reason for it. When I have sold pups I do list the price just so I dont have to deal with guys that cant or wont pay what Im asking. 
In my neck of the woods I would NEVER look to the news paper for a pup and I would NEVER advertise mine there. When I see an ad that the parents are great hunters it proves nothing for me. Most of the time people posting these ads dont know what a good dog really is. I want some sort of pedigree behind a pup. That doesnt guarantee anything but does give you a better idea of potential.
I wont look down my nose at a bargain shopper but I will say good luck hope you can find what your looking for. But then again a bargain shopper doesnt just mean your looking for the cheapest dog out there. I bargain shop too. I like to find a $1500 puppy for $1000 Hell one of my dogs was an FC to FC breeding then her sire won the National the year after I bought her. That was at least a $3000 puppy and I got her for $1000, definitely a bargain.
Another example of a bargain puppy.... I have a two year old with an extremely nice pedigree but she is not proven yet and I am looking to breed her to a young FC sire that has not sired a littler yet. I would be asking $1000 for these pups. Two years down the road this same breeding could very easily be $2000 to $3000. Perfect example of what I would look at when bargain shopping so I want to see the price in the ad. I dont want to waste my time or the breeders if it is not what I am looking for. I hate tire kickers when I am selling a litter and I hate being a tire kicker. I only make a call if I am serious and knowing the price up front lets me decide that.


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## Bustin' (Jun 5, 2007)

I have only had a few litters and have never put a price in the ad, until the one I have now. I figured that if for some reason I would have to lower my price, no one would know unless they called or emailed multiple times. I am not a well known breeder and really just getting started so I usually have pups longer than others would. I put a lot of time and energy into my litters and don't care for the "Will you take $X for the last one?" If I put a price in then lower it, it starts the snowball of lowball offers! Shameless plug warning--- I have a 1chocolate and 2 balck males left!


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

The rule of thumb is if the add doesn't have a price, the pups are FREE!


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks for ALL the replies, I'm beginning to understand why some do not put pricing on their litters. And I assume most of those kennels have no problem selling all their pups. I will continue to look for a pup and pass on ads without prices until I just have no choice put to spend the extra time to call each one to find out if they fit my price range. Seems like a waste of my time and theirs but that is the game I guess.


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## dtrkyman (Dec 8, 2012)

May save the seller some wasted time if he puts the price, then he does not have to talk to people about his 1500 dollar puppy with someone who is not willing to spend 1500 on one, seems pretty simple to me.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

What makes many of us laugh and shake our heads is that we DO put our price in ads and on our websites and people still call and ask how much.  

You could try putting a "wanted" ad in the classifieds, stating your price range, location, etc and breeders who may have something can contact you.


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## duckwater (Apr 23, 2010)

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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Free Range said:


> Why the mystery? Why do some (a lot) of people posting pups for sale feel the need to not include how much they are asking? To some of us that can't afford forking out over a grand for a dog it makes wading through the ads a little quicker if we can simply scroll to the bottom and see what the asking price is. Instead of having to go to their web sight, (where they still don't tell you) then send a e-mail, or call.
> 
> Sorry for my first post being a rant, but I'm looking to buy a pup, the reason I joined here, and it's a bit of a turn off reading a ad and then having to jump through hoops just to find a kennel is out of my price range.


I feel your frustration!

I have had numerous friends and associates ask me to help them find a pup for hunting. I stopped refering them to this site for a puppy search. RTF is great for learning about training but not a lot of help for the average hunter in regards to finding a pup. What I do now is refer people to the local HRC webiste. Generally, they will find the price and are able to see the pups, see at least the Dam and meet the breeders.

You can find a great pup, from sound sire and dam that hunt, with all the health clearences you need for no more than $500. THat includes the ability to register with AKC or UKC, first shots, dew claws removed etc. Remember, top Field Trial breedings may not be suitable for a duck hunter who wants a more level-headed dog. I'm not saying you can't find one from FT breedings, but that is not what they are bred for. 

Good luck.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

I'm currently looking for a pup or started dog and aslo breeze right past the ones without price. Could i spend $10-20k on a dog? well, thats nobodys business but mine. Am I going to spend that? NO. 

The people here encourage the average Joe hunter to buy from good stock and pass the backyards, which is good advice. The disconnect is that these buyers want a dog that will pick up a duck a few weekends a year and be a pet. They still have a family to raise. They want a dog, not a contender. It is hard to justify $2K for a puppy in that roll to the wife. Not saying the dogs not worth it, just more than needed.

I also run across adds of a JHxSH or MH with average pedigree for $1500. I definitly dont have the money for that one. So saying if someone has to ask the price they don't have the $$ does not hold water when the real situation is that what they are asking for the pups is a pipe dream.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Free Range said:


> just went to your site, beats the heck out of me how much your pups go for. I see 300$ deposit, but how much more when I pick up the dog, 1000, 2000, why would I even waste my time sending you a email asking if you are not honest enough with your ads to put the price on it? Honest question. Would you buy a car like that? Hey come look at our trucks, $300 deposit and you can have a brand new truck. I just don't get it I guess.


For the record, I haven't advertised (except on my website), taken any deposits or determined the price because I don't know if the breeding took. Also, my dog will run trials between now and the time she whelps the litter. If she has some success, the price may change.


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## dalgrabe (Feb 1, 2012)

Well said Badbullgator


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I totally understand your frustration. The prices of my dogs are always listed in the ad. Most people have a budget which is understandable. They also don't have the time for a lot of unnecessary phone calling and emailing trying to get a very basic question answered. I also don't have a lot of time for phone calls to answer such a basic question.

Personally I think people don't list the price because they sometimes would like to talk you into something you don't want or can afford. Again I don't have time for that either.

A straightforward non wordy, embellished ad with all the relelvant information is a good way to go. IMHO... Pictures are also GOOD!!

Angie


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## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

Angie B said:


> I totally understand your frustration. The prices of my dogs are always listed in the ad. Most people have a budget which is understandable. They also don't have the time for a lot of unnecessary phone calling and emailing trying to get a very basic question answered. I also don't have a lot of time for phone calls to answer such a basic question.
> 
> Personally I think people don't list the price because they sometimes would like to talk you into something you don't want or can afford. Again I don't have time for that either.
> 
> ...


Agree!! I personally don't like talking on the phone, so I'm not sure why people don't just list the price and avoid the conversations with window shoppers! I've also never understood how you list something for sale in the classified, but don't list the price or any pics. Do you really want to send them to ten different people, or just put it in the ad and be done?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

How about putting an ad in the Wanted section here, listing what you're looking for and how much you are planning to spend? That way, people with litters in your price range can call you. 

As for selling with or without papers at different prices, according to your logic, the "with papers" pups should cost maybe ten bucks more than the "without papers" pups...since it doesn't cost more than that for you to get the litter registration stuff from AKC. I won't sell a pup without papers...but I do usually sell on limited registration.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Dear Free, all of us are not snobs or wealthy and are ever so willing to help you find the pup you want. If our price is above your comfort zone and we know of another breeder who has pups priced for less, we will be happy to steer you in their direction. I will not send you to a breeder that I would not consider buying a pup.

Now, as to why some pups are more expensive than others. Take into consideration what the breeder has done to promote the female so the buyer might consider buying one of the pups. It was fun but a lot of money has gone into poducing a female you would like to have a pup from. Next, to find the best stud that will help improve the breed when bred to yor female can be VERY expensive. Is it a natural breeding and you have to ship or take your female to the stud? That isn't cheap either. Then if you choose to do the frozen semen, surgical implantation you will be adding a whole lot more cost to producing a litter.

Now, the litter arrives. The mama dog does a pretty good job of taking care of the litter for the first 3 or 4 weeks AND, then the work begins for YOU. A litter of 6 to 12 pups are real little 'poo poo' factories that you must keep clean. This is an ongoing job until the pups leave at 7 or 8 weeks.

The breeder must register the litter, Vet check and shots, micro chip and endless paper work. All of this is either costly or time consuming. 

Unless the breeder is premoting a 'puppy mill' or has very good help, he/she will be very lucky to just break even when they produce a litter, regardless of what the asking price is. Most breeders do this to improve the breed and the sheer love of it. Breeding for profit rarely enters in the cost one charges for a pup.

All of the above is just the tip of the iceberg when breeding is considered. 

Keep looking, calling and ask when looking for a pup. OH, and then you have to be very careful about the 'kennel hoppers' who want to go from one kennel to another to look at pups and bring parvo to your kennel and you lose the litter.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Free Range said:


> Why the mystery? Why do some (a lot) of people posting pups for sale feel the need to not include how much they are asking? To some of us that can't afford forking out over a grand for a dog it makes wading through the ads a little quicker if we can simply scroll to the bottom and see what the asking price is. Instead of having to go to their web sight, (where they still don't tell you) then send a e-mail, or call.
> 
> Sorry for my first post being a rant, but I'm looking to buy a pup, the reason I joined here, and it's a bit of a turn off reading a ad and then having to jump through hoops just to find a kennel is out of my price range.


You make a post stating that you are in the puppy market &complaining about a lack of a key piece lof information {the $ price}
I tend to agree that putting key info in posts would make it a more efficient method of meeting your goals.You mention that as a newcomer you dont yet have PM access
To that end it appears that you have left out some key info in your post. Specifically a way to contact you such as name, phone #, or email address

Im aware of a breeding in Kansas that may be perfect for your purposes, yet I have no way of sharing that info with you.
If you'd like to hear more and see if this breeding may fit your needs give me a call @ 660 886 6538
Good Luck
Marc Healey


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## Elaine Mitchell (Jun 4, 2009)

Franco said:


> I feel your frustration!
> 
> I have had numerous friends and associates ask me to help them find a pup for hunting. I stopped refering them to this site for a puppy search. RTF is great for learning about training but not a lot of help for the average hunter in regards to finding a pup. What I do now is refer people to the local HRC webiste. Generally, they will find the price and are able to see the pups, see at least the Dam and meet the breeders.
> 
> ...


X2 ... have a friend looking for a puppy now. He's not looking to run trials or even tests. Most of what is posted here is likely way more dog than he's looking for right now. I've reached out to a network of friends that may be able to help him but calling about the majority of litters here (fantastic as they might be) is likely a waste of his time and theirs.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Franco said:


> Remember, top Field Trial breedings may not be suitable for a duck hunter who wants a more level-headed dog. I'm not saying you can't find one from FT breedings, but that is not what they are bred for.
> 
> Good luck.






I always have a problem with this kind of statement. It makes it sound as if the breeding or the dog is not suited for the purpose when in reality it is the lack of knowldege or ability of the owner that is at fault.
It is my experience that a well bred FT dog is the most level headed, intelligent and easiest to train. They may have a little more power and if you dont know how to deal with it it can be a problem but again it is not because of the dog or the breeding. Knowing what I know now I would still look to a very nice FT breeding even if I were only going to hunt the dog. Sure if you only hunt a handful of times a year you may not need a dog from well bred FT stock but if you hunt a lot I wouldnt look any where else.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> I always have a problem with this kind of statement. It makes it sound as if the breeding or the dog is not suited for the purpose when in reality it is the lack of knowldege or ability of the owner that is at fault.
> It is my experience that a well bred FT dog is the most level headed, intelligent and easiest to train. They may have a little more power and if you dont know how to deal with it it can be a problem but again it is not because of the dog or the breeding. Knowing what I know now I would still look to a very nice FT breeding even if I were only going to hunt the dog. Sure if you only hunt a handful of times a year you may not need a dog from well bred FT stock but if you hunt a lot I wouldnt look any where else.


I'll have to disagree with your statement in general. I have the opportunity to duck & goose hunt with lots of different folks. All of them have retrievers so, I've observed lots of different breedings in the duck blind/goose pit. Just recently, I made a duck hunt with a longtime officer of the local HRC club. He is very experienced with Labs and training. He has a male sired by a high profiled FT stud and after several seasons with this dog is about to give up in it. The dog is predisposed to constant whinning and has a hard time keeping his feet still. It's just in the dog's DNA! There are some FT breedings that do produce suitable hunting companions. However, many of these breedings are seeking a big running, top marking dog capable of performing in a sport of extreme retrieving. I appricaite FT for what they are but to say that top FT breedings are dual purpose is folly. The type of hunting companion is not a consideration with these breedings and many are better suited for FT's than a duck blind.

I had an FT trainer once tell me he loved my dog for FT's but would hate to hunt with him. Likewise, I sold a dog that wasn't FT material but was everything one would want in a dog when it came to retrieving downed ducks and geese. He was calm, quiet, steady and handled very well but couldn't mark worth a dam at distences over 200 yards.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Steve Shaver said:


> I always have a problem with this kind of statement. It makes it sound as if the breeding or the dog is not suited for the purpose when in reality it is the lack of knowldege or ability of the owner that is at fault.
> It is my experience that a well bred FT dog is the most level headed, intelligent and easiest to train. They may have a little more power and if you dont know how to deal with it it can be a problem but again it is not because of the dog or the breeding. Knowing what I know now I would still look to a very nice FT breeding even if I were only going to hunt the dog. Sure if you only hunt a handful of times a year you may not need a dog from well bred FT stock but if you hunt a lot I wouldnt look any where else.


I certainly agree but one must also realize many breeders want their well bred FT litters to go to competitive homes.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Fast becomming a most entertaining post. I have to agree with posting the price up front. I believe in capitalism so I believe you should market to the highest level. Beside, the + for listing the price is that you will weed out some of the Walmart parking lot dog buyers before you get the call. Just my opinion. Duckdon


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> How about putting an ad in the Wanted section here, listing what you're looking for and how much you are planning to spend? That way, people with litters in your price range can call you.
> 
> As for selling with or without papers at different prices, according to your logic, the "with papers" pups should cost maybe ten bucks more than the "without papers" pups...since it doesn't cost more than that for you to get the litter registration stuff from AKC. I won't sell a pup without papers...but I do usually sell on limited registration.


I also could never understand the logic of selling puppies with out papers cheaper than puppies with them. Akc charges x amount plus 2.00 per puppy when you register a litter be it 1 or 10 puppies. so that cheaper puppy cost the breeder an additional 2.00. Big DEAL these puppys usually end up on someones rescue list.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Watchm said:


> I certainly agree but one must also realize many breeders want their well bred FT litters to go to competitive homes.


And that doesn't happen too often. There just aren't that many of those kinda homes.

High end FT breedings are great but more often then not are just too much dog for the average duck hunter and his young family.

Angie


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Franco said:


> I'll have to disagree with your statement in general. I have the opportunity to duck & goose hunt with lots of different folks. All of them have retrievers so, I've observed lots of different breedings in the duck blind/goose pit. Just recently, I made a duck hunt with a longtime officer of the local HRC club. He is very experienced with Labs and training. He has a male sired by a high profiled FT stud and after several seasons with this dog is about to give up in it. The dog is predisposed to constant whinning and has a hard time keeping his feet still. It's just in the dog's DNA! There are some FT breedings that do produce suitable hunting companions. However, many of these breedings are seeking a big running, top marking dog capable of performing in a sport of extreme retrieving. I appricaite FT for what they are but to say that top FT breedings are duel purpose is folly. The type of hunting companion is not a consideration with these breedings and many are better suited for FT's than a duck blind.
> 
> I had an FT trainer once tell me he loved my dog for FT's but would hate to hunt with him. Likewise, I sold a dog that wasn't FT material but was everything one would want in a dog when it came to retrieving downed ducks and geese. He was calm, quiet, steady and handled very well but couldn't mark worth a dam at distences over 200 yards.






Same could be said for any breeding. Wish I could produce a litter of perfect pups that would all do everything just right.
I have worked with a good number of dogs and in general the better the breeding the better the dog. Just my experience.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Is this really that big of a deal?


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Cleo Watson said:


> Dear Free, all of us are not snobs or wealthy and are ever so willing to help you find the pup you want. If our price is above your comfort zone and we know of another breeder who has pups priced for less, we will be happy to steer you in their direction. I will not send you to a breeder that I would not consider buying a pup.
> 
> Now, as to why some pups are more expensive than others. Take into consideration what the breeder has done to promote the female so the buyer might consider buying one of the pups. It was fun but a lot of money has gone into poducing a female you would like to have a pup from. Next, to find the best stud that will help improve the breed when bred to yor female can be VERY expensive. Is it a natural breeding and you have to ship or take your female to the stud? That isn't cheap either. Then if you choose to do the frozen semen, surgical implantation you will be adding a whole lot more cost to producing a litter.
> 
> ...


Cleo, you said a mouthful, and as you stated that is just the tip of the "iceberg"!

Freerange, I understand your frustration. I would agree that the price is an important piece of information which would help a prospective buyer as well as the seller. However, as a small-scale breeder of hunting/companion Labs, I hate when a person calls and their first question is "How Much?" From my perspective if that is your biggest concern then you aren't likely to end up with one of the pups that I have spent so much time and effort to prepare for a "good home". 

Freerange, you state that if the price isn't in your range then the other details are irrelevant. That may be true from your perspective, but when I'm searching for a stud dog I ask all of the pertainant questions about the dog's pedigree, health clearances, and look him over in person first because from my perspective the price doesn't matter if he doesn't fit my needs. It's the same only _very_ different depending on your perspective.

Swack


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I have only purchased puppies from ads that had the price listed. For some reason I just get a bad vibe when someone advertises a litter and does not post the price in the ad. 

Someone above stated that "breeders are lucky to break even" that they don't make any money breeding and selling litters...WHATEVER!!!

I will use a litter that I am aware of for an example:

FC x MH breeding
Natural breeding (stud fee was $2,000)
10 puppies were whelped and all 10 were sold @ $1,500 each.

So $15,000.00 price litter sold for
Less. 2,000.00 stud fee

Balance $13,000.00

Now I understand that there were some very minute vet fees and some travel fees associated with the breeding. I seriously doubt that the breeder had over $2,000.00 in these associated costs. But if he did that would still leave a bottom line PROFIT of $11,000.00. So to say that breeders don't make any money is, in many cases, not true. Most breeders raise litters to sell and make money. Im sure that many want to "better the breed" but even for those they don't offer to better the breed for free.

Lonster


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

Just the same as saying "Serious Inquiries Only". Saves time for everyone.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

KwickLabs said:


> Is this really that big of a deal?


Must be a slow day, geeze, I agree.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Franco said:


> I feel your frustration!
> 
> 
> Remember, top Field Trial breedings may not be suitable for a duck hunter who wants a more level-headed dog. I'm not saying you can't find one from FT breedings, but that is not what they are bred for.


I disagree with your stating "field trial breedings may not be suitable for a duck hunter who wants a more level-headed dog". Level headed? You need to explain what you mean by that. 

Breeders of field trial prospects usually spend a lot of time planning their breedings by studying pedigrees and the dogs on them. Just because they are breeding for a purpose (the competitive level) doesn't mean the dogs they breed aren't level headed. 

If you had stated "field trial breedings may be more dog than the average duck hunter needs" ... I'd go along with that statement. 

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Lonster said:


> I will use a litter that I am aware of for an example:
> 
> FC x MH breeding
> Natural breeding (stud fee was $2,000)
> ...


Lonstar, "some minute vet fees", "associated costs"? I am willing to bet you have never bred a litter. This past spring our out of pocket costs for a FT breeding was over $3,500. and it did not take.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

Swack said:


> Cleo, you said a mouthful, and as you stated that is just the tip of the "iceberg"!
> 
> Freerange, I understand your frustration. I would agree that the price is an important piece of information which would help a prospective buyer as well as the seller. However, as a small-scale breeder of hunting/companion Labs, I hate when a person calls and their first question is "How Much?" From my perspective if that is your biggest concern then you aren't likely to end up with one of the pups that I have spent so much time and effort to prepare for a "good home".
> 
> ...


So, let me get this right, I don't know you, so just for kicks lets say you make 50k a year, and you dabble in breeding labs, you go thru all the trouble to find out if the dog is what you want in a stud, fly out to see it, check all the papers and titles, and then the person says it will cost you 50K to breed your female to my stud, you just say Oh, sorry but that is out of my price range? Seems to me it would save you a lot of time and trouble if you knew up front you could not afford,,,,, or don't want to spend that much before going thru all that.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

And just another note, I'm not saying any of these high priced dogs are not worth it. I understand the time and money that goes into producing these high powered lines. I don't need the sales pitch of way a dog cost x amount. 

I can't send a PM yet but I can receive them, if you want to contact me it's not hard to do so. I don't post my contact info on a open forum, but gladly do in a PM. I only have a few more post to go before I can PM, so hang in there.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

helencalif said:


> Lonstar, "some minute vet fees", "associated costs"? I am willing to bet you have never bred a litter. This past spring our out of pocket costs for a FT breeding was over $3,500. and it did not take.



Just for the ignorant among us (me included) what would those out of pocket cost be? Like I said before I'm not new to dogs just new to this arena, last time I bred a dog it cost me one pup to the stud owner, and a vet bill for I can't remember no more than a couple hundred because she had a hard time delivering and three of the six she had were still born.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

helencalif said:


> Lonstar, "some minute vet fees", "associated costs"? I am willing to bet you have never bred a litter. This past spring our out of pocket costs for a FT breeding was over $3,500. and it did not take.


Too true. I have bred four, fine-quality litters with pedigrees loaded with titles with some of the most notable Chessies in the history of the breed. Three have been delivered by c-section, all for different reasons. Do you know the cost of a c-section??Very Spendy. I have lost THOUSANDS of dollars on these litters. I think just one, a litter of 13, ended up in the black. 
I breed occassionally to improve the breed. I have bitches that have titles on both ends of their names, both show champiopns and field titles, and look for sires of the same. Do you know how much it costs to hire a handler to take your dog in the show ring? And then there is the price of hunt test entries. Very Spendy. I do all the health clearances. Do you know the price of a PRA test? Very Spendy. And then I put a very reasonable price on these beautifully-pedigreed pups. Am I turned off by someone calling me and asking right off the bat, How Much?, before actually even introducing themselves and telling me about their interest in getting a pup? Yes I am. This is not the same as buying a car, and I steer away from potential buyers that think that it is.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Free Range, 
There are many different folks on RTF because it is a forum covering retrievers. The classified section is just one segment of RTF. Because there are different levels of interest and participation -- from the average duck hunter to the active, very serious field trialer -- you are going to see a wide spectrum of ads for litters. As I said before, let the deposit be your indication of what the puppy price is. Few breeders will be asking for a $300 deposit on a $500 puppy. 

Helen


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

I recently tried my hand a breeding my HRCH chessie bitch and found myself around $3k in the hole when she lost the litter. Haven't added up the exact loss, just too depressing. 
Some of my minut expenses- Consultation with repro vet (yes gotta pay just to talk to them), Vaginal cytology, Progesterone testing (every other day for over a week), OFA Hips, Elbows, CERF, EIC test and DM test. 10 hr drive to stud dog one way, about a week in a motel, ended up doing 2 AI's, 10hr drive home, Vet visit to confirm the pregnancy, vet visit to confirm she lost the litter. I'm not going to add in the costs of training and hunt tests. But those are some of the "out of pockets". Some folks do less some do more but losing a lot of money is real chance and happens more often than you may think.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Matt, we had a similar experience. We also had a lot of progesterone tests using a repro vet which meant travel costs to get her in and out. Once we had to leave her at the repro vet for 3 days so they could get a late Friday and a Sunday draw. We first tried fresh chilled. but it aged out because she stalled. Then we went to using his frozen sperm which meant another $375 in processing fees plus another $90 Fed Ex shipping. The frozen was thawed and surgically inserted (big repro vet bill) and she had to stay there an extra day after surgery. And then we waited 35 days and did an ultra sound. No puppies. OFA hips, elbows, CERF. EIC, and CMN tests had already been done so their cost was not part of our $3,500 total cost. If she had had ONE puppy, it would have been worth it as that would have been the one we would have kept. A friend of ours experienced a similar situation about 5 years ago. He had over $3,000. invested in his breeding. He got one puppy. He sold it to recoup some of his costs.


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## awolfe (Mar 2, 2011)

Lest we not forget the $$ required to own a female worthy of all this to begin with. And the possible complications she could have from a pregnancy if it doesn't go as planned. And any value you'd put on the time she is busy being pg or with pups instead of doing her "other" job. And the number of threads posted about females not cycling correctly, or once every couple years, or not at all. And how much work it is to whelp and raise a good litter of pups, keep them clean and neurologically stimulated, socialized, water, birds, etc. There's more but hopefully somebody will start to figure it out.


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

Again thanks for all the replies, most have been very courteous and very informative. One thing I have learned for sure is this FT retriever game is a whole nother world. I have owned a dog for all my life except for three years while we lived in Hawaii when I was six-eight years old. Had and bred Beagles for 10-15 years and have had numerous different breeds of bird dogs, have whelped many litters and have never had any expense other than paying the stud owner cash or a pup. No preg testing or hormone testing or AI, just put the two dogs together for a week and let nature take it's course. Sounds to me like one thing a lot of you breeders are overlooking in your breeding program is ease of breeding, why on earth would you continue to breed dogs that have to go thru some much rig-a-ma-row to get pregnant and deliver a litter? The Female lab I had, had a ruff time delivering her first litter, so I never bred her again, seemed like the right thing to do to me.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Free Range said:


> Again thanks for all the replies, most have been very courteous and very informative. One thing I have learned for sure is this FT retriever game is a whole nother world. I have owned a dog for all my life except for three years while we lived in Hawaii when I was six-eight years old. Had and bred Beagles for 10-15 years and have had numerous different breeds of bird dogs, have whelped many litters and have never had any expense other than paying the stud owner cash or a pup. No preg testing or hormone testing or AI, just put the two dogs together for a week and let nature take it's course. *Sounds to me like one thing a lot of you breeders are overlooking in your breeding program is ease of breeding, why on earth would you continue to breed dogs that have to go thru some much rig-a-ma-row to get pregnant and deliver a litter?* The Female lab I had, had a ruff time delivering her first litter, so I never bred her again, seemed like the right thing to do to me.


Come on, man. I think you're just trolling now. I don't know very many stud owners that that will keep a bitch for a week. The stud I used was 5+ hours away. I suppose if I wanted to breed to the golden next door that hasn't been out of the yard in 5 years, that might have been an option. You're either stirring the pot or seriously confused about why people do reproductive tests.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

helencalif said:


> I disagree with your stating "field trial breedings may not be suitable for a duck hunter who wants a more level-headed dog". Level headed? You need to explain what you mean by that.
> 
> Breeders of field trial prospects usually spend a lot of time planning their breedings by studying pedigrees and the dogs on them. Just because they are breeding for a purpose (the competitive level) doesn't mean the dogs they breed aren't level headed.
> 
> ...


Happy to explain this. In my book, a level-headed dog is one that is easy to control on a hunt. A dog that can't compose itself because they are to jacked up is not level-headed. 

Having had the amount of Labs that I have had over the years, I have had some wonderful hunting dogs that came from FT lines. I have also had some that I've had to get rid of because they were not good companions on a hunt. Either excessive whining or where they can't keep their feet still. Constantly correcting a dog while hunting is not my idea of a good time. 

Top FT breeding are about producing FT competitors and consideration as to what kind of hunting companion they will make is not. I agree with your statement that many FT breeding are too much dog for the average hunter. I find that a shame and is the number one reason for the rise and popularity of the UK bred dogs. 

The breed didn't start out as a retriever for competition. The intent was a solid hunting retiever. It is our artificial game of extreme retrieving where dogs had to be able to handle the pressure, mark at extreme distences way beyond what is needed in a normal days hunt, ignore their nose and take directions has given us a breeding programs that produces many dogs that are too tightly wound, too jacked up for many hunters. A great hunting companion doesn't need a lot of pressure to be trained. 

I appreciate FT for what they are but I would never fool myself into thinking that FT breedings produce better dogs for the average day afield.

Not to mention all the health issues many ignore to produce a FT hopeful.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Free Range,

Welcome to RTF. My name is Chris. I'm the janitor here. The site's been around since 1998. We've had lots of cycles and continue to evolve over the years. But in many ways, history seems to repeat itself here.

There will never be "one size-fits-all". 

Here's my suggestion: If you find an ad that doesn't list your primary criteria, skip over it. Only spend your valuable time on the ads that fit your criteria.

I hope the value you've picked up here thus far is worth the price of admission. The sponsors here pay the bills. Your abiiity to tap into whatever you can glean is free.

Happy New Year and good luck finding your puppy.

It's always a roll of the dice. Some folks choose to optimize their odds through selective breeding. There are lots of ways to get there.... 

I wish you the best finding happiness and sastisfaction with your next puppy.

Chris Atkinson - real name...


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Don Lietzau said:


> Fast becomming a most entertaining post. I have to agree with posting the price up front. I believe in capitalism so I believe you should market to the highest level. Beside, the + for listing the price is that you will weed out some of the Walmart parking lot dog buyers before you get the call. Just my opinion. Duckdon


I believe Free should just get him one of those Walmart dogs and quit whining.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Raymond Little said:


> I believe Free should just get him one of those Walmart dogs and quit whining.



I have a selectively-bred labrador out of Field Trial lines. I run trials with him and love him. I would do it all over again and would not think twice about calling breeders who don't list price in their ads if the parental match turns me on.

I have at this time three, yes 3 dogs from the local rescue programs. While they were "free" when we got them, one popped a cruciate and it cost us close to $3k to fix that knee. Guess what she did last week? Yep, popped the other. My guess is we get to hop back on that same lovely carnival ride*..."weeeee"......*can't wait! 

"Free" is in the eye of the beholder. There are no true guarantees. There are always risks....always.

Chris


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

I have two that we ended up doing c-sections on both this month. 

Bitch #1 has had 4 prior litters, no issues whelping, this litter #2 got stuck, pulled him (dead), she had 4 more that some of those needed help, then another was stuck...it was dead already when we did the c-section, saved the other 4 that were still inside. She started at 1:30 AM and the c-section was about 7:30 pm, last pup had been born before noon. Thankfully my vet is very reasonable on the emergency fees since it was on a Sunday, it "only" cost right at $750. This litter has also had to be bottle raised because the dam hasn't produced much milk this time...that was every 3-4 hours around the clock for the first week or so. She's still with them and has produced some milk (have been giving her supplements, another cost), but not enough to go around. They're up to at least 3/4 gallon a day between the 9 of them at 3 weeks old. 

Bitch #2 was a singleton pup, was having contractions, but not strong ones, for well over 24 hours. We knew by ultrasound and then x-ray it was the only one in there, "might" could have waited longer to see if she'd finally have it, but I wasn't risking loosing the only pup and still have to do a c-section/spay...sometimes one pup doesn't produce enough hormones to induce full labor and I think this was the case. Her two previous litters of 9 & 10 were free whelped with no issues and conceived naturally with no issues though she only goes in heat about once a year. I already had ~$500 in travel/hotel/vet. The bill on that one was ~$475. I could have bought a pup out of a QAA bitch for $500 by the same sire. 

Another thing that needs to be factored in would be power and water, I know with litter #1 above, I washed and dried 5 loads of blankets the first day because of all the birthing fluid. My time "should" be worth something I would think...it takes 15-30 minutes to bottle feed, not including prep time (gotta wash bottles, warm the milk, add yogurt and food to the milk, etc.). They're also inside, I'm running heat lamps and keeping the one room warmer than I normally would (it's about 70, I usually keep it around 65 in the winter). We also had to build new whelping boxes...the old one was 8 years old, and there's only so much that can be done to get the urine smell out of wood. The bottoms of our new ones are solid plastic, luckily it was "left over" from construction job, so didn't cost anything except for the two sheets of plywood and 4 x 6's for the pig rails. The exercise pens I've had for a couple of years now, but would like 2 more so I don't have to carry these in and out when I start taking them outside for extended periods (I don't know how much I'll get to do that with these as cool as it is). 

One of the reasons the cycles tend to be "off" is that the females are working year round versus only during the "hunting months" like a lot of the hounds and other bird dogs. The low body fat causes the hormones to be "off". A friend in high school that worked out a LOT only had her cycle 3-4 times a year vs every 4 weeks. Another person I know that did body building, when she was at "competition" BMI didn't have any for a year or so until she gained weight back. She kept weight on, got pregnant, and had a baby with no problems.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Free Range said:


> Again thanks for all the replies, most have been very courteous and very informative. One thing I have learned for sure is this FT retriever game is a whole nother world. I have owned a dog for all my life except for three years while we lived in Hawaii when I was six-eight years old. Had and bred Beagles for 10-15 years and have had numerous different breeds of bird dogs, have whelped many litters and have never had any expense other than paying the stud owner cash or a pup. No preg testing or hormone testing or AI, just put the two dogs together for a week and let nature take it's course. Sounds to me like one thing a lot of you breeders are overlooking in your breeding program is ease of breeding, why on earth would you continue to breed dogs that have to go thru some much rig-a-ma-row to get pregnant and deliver a litter? The Female lab I had, had a ruff time delivering her first litter, so I never bred her again, seemed like the right thing to do to me.


While I always try to accomodate bitch owners and will gladly keep their dog while she's here being bred, there is no way I will just turn them loose together for a week. While nature usually can take its course just fine, it only takes one bitch to panic when tied and injure...perhaps permanently...the dog, and that's just one example of what can go wrong. I try to keep things as close to natural as possible, but am not willing to take risks, either with my dogs or a client's dog.

A bitch may have trouble whelping for numerous reasons, not all of which are hereditary and may be no reason to not breed her again.

All the progesterone tests, AI, etc. allow us to use dogs that are too far away to drive to...which is overall a good thing for the breeds since it allows the gene pool to expand rather than being restricted to local dogs. It also lets us use the dog that may nick the best with our female without location restrictions, again a good thing for the breed.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Free Range said:


> So, let me get this right, I don't know you, so just for kicks lets say you make 50k a year, and you dabble in breeding labs, you go thru all the trouble to find out if the dog is what you want in a stud, fly out to see it, check all the papers and titles, and then the person says it will cost you 50K to breed your female to my stud, you just say Oh, sorry but that is out of my price range? Seems to me it would save you a lot of time and trouble if you knew up front you could not afford,,,,, or don't want to spend that much before going thru all that.


Free Range,

I do check out the pedigree, health clearances and such first. I haven't flown to visit stud dogs as I prefer they be within a day's drive because I don't trust the airlines if I had to fly my bitch to the stud dog. I've driven up to 10 hrs. one-way for a breeding. That does limit me some when it comes to finding the right stud dog. As it is, I may drive to see several dogs and the cost of travel alone can add up to a considerable investment before I ever find the right stud dog. That's an expense others may not have mentioned, but it does add up. Also there is the cost of caring for my bitch over the course of her life, health clearances, titling her, caring for her offspring to see if they are up to the title of "future brood bitch" which includes doing all of those things for the up and comer. Then you also have expenses in caring for the older bitches that have had their day in the sun and are now retired from breeding. Once you are caring for 5 or 6 dogs (that's about my limit, I'm sure others have many more) and have maybe one litter a year to help offset all of those expenses, you are very lucky if you manage to show a profit.

OK, I'll admit that I check out all of the details on a stud dog and do as much research as I can on his progeny and family history and _if _they all check out, _then_ I ask about the stud fee before I'd make the trip. My point was that first the stud dog had to meet my needs and requirements _before_ I ever ask about the cost of the stud fee because the cost of the stud fee isn't as important to me as the dog himself.

This may be a whole "nother" world to you. Welcome to the world of those who aren't just looking to breed "Ole' Blue" to the bitch down the street to get a "free" stud fee puppy. Most of us are on RTF because we are serious about our dogs, whether we participate in field trials, hunt tests, hunt, breed, show, or run in any number of other dog related events and activities. We understand that the initial investment in a dog is only a small part of what we will invest over its lifetime and we are willing to spend more than some folks are to get a dog that will have a better chance of satisfying our needs for the next 10 - 15 years. Afterall, when you look at it over a dog's lifetime the difference between a $500 pup and a $1,500 pup is only $75 to $100 more per year (the cost of a couple of bags of dog food). If that's what it takes to get the dog we need there are many of us who are willing to pay a little extra.

Swack


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Lonster said:


> I have only purchased puppies from ads that had the price listed. For some reason I just get a bad vibe when someone advertises a litter and does not post the price in the ad.
> 
> Someone above stated that "breeders are lucky to break even" that they don't make any money breeding and selling litters...WHATEVER!!!
> 
> ...


May I ask how much was spent campaigning the female so that she is the type of dog you want a pup from? The sire puts a lot in the pup but most will agree that the female has an edge in what goes into that litter. It takes a good combination to possibly produce what you are looking for. Not counting the time training or paying a pro to train her and then all the entry fees to title her. Also, OFA, CERF. EIC and CNM don't come cheap. Subtract those costs from your $13,000.00 and then see what is left for fun and frolicking by the rich breeder. I don't mean this to sound like I am chastising you for wanting to know in the AD what the price is but I, as a breeder, also use that time to consider if I want you to have one of my pups. I have put too much into this venture to allow a pup to go someone who will not give the pup all it needs to be the best and make you proud of what you have. We are just as, if not more so, picky on who we sell to as you are in selecting a pup be it for cost or pedigree.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Free Range said:


> Again thanks for all the replies, most have been very courteous and very informative. One thing I have learned for sure is this FT retriever game is a whole nother world. I have owned a dog for all my life except for three years while we lived in Hawaii when I was six-eight years old. Had and bred Beagles for 10-15 years and have had numerous different breeds of bird dogs, have whelped many litters and have never had any expense other than paying the stud owner cash or a pup. No preg testing or hormone testing or AI, just put the two dogs together for a week and let nature take it's course. Sounds to me like one thing a lot of you breeders are overlooking in your breeding program is ease of breeding, why on earth would you continue to breed dogs that have to go thru some much rig-a-ma-row to get pregnant and deliver a litter? The Female lab I had, had a ruff time delivering her first litter, so I never bred her again, seemed like the right thing to do to me.


Sounds to me like you may want to re-read some of the posts. You don't mention putting any titles or doing health clearances w/ your dogs when you were growing up. Big difference between what was done then vs now. I personally put ~$1000 into health clearances alone, not to mention what is spent on training/titling prior to breeding. Someone else can answer here what it take$ to put an FC on a dog but I'm guessing about $15K for a MH these days wouldn't be out of line. Then they shell out at least $3-4000 more (just based on my own breeding records) for stud fees and any shipping/AI/progesterone (which we do because we want to insure proper timing and know when the pups are really due) etc.. Then maybe they miss work or need to hire helpers so they CAN work while the puppies are being raised in their home for 8 wks or so. 

These aren't people taking their bitches to the untitled/untested dog next door and why? Because they have a vision of what they WANT to breed and that vision is usually pretty costly. I've got a litter of just 5 pups here currently that I ended up at the ER vet on a weekend (of course!) for-- thankfully just a big stuck puppy that finally got unstuck after 45 min of hard work and no C section (would have been ~$1200 additional) if needed. Still, no one is going to Hawaii on those proceeds, yet they are priced at $1200. And btw, I didn't advertise that $ on my website, or here (til now) or anywhere, but still had ~20 serious inquiries, so obviously it doesn't matter to those folks who are interested in the pedigree. 

I think we all get the one liner emails asking "how much?" and "do you have puppies". I answer them, but I don't like those kinds of inquiries. I've also had some phone calls recently from folks referred to me by former breeder friends who are looking for that $500-600 dog and can't figure out why they can't find them. I do take the time to explain. What is interesting is in the end, 2 of 3 figure out why it may be necessary to spend the extra $, esp if they've got a 4-5 yo they are feeding from nothing lines that won't hunt or is crippled. 

Anyhow, that's my 25 cents.  Best of luck in your search!


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## Tim Trammell (Dec 30, 2012)

Raymond Little said:


> I believe Free should just get him one of those Walmart dogs and quit whining.


Nice reply.,,,,,,,,,, waiting for Chris to admonish.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Free Range said:


> Nice reply.,,,,,,,,,, waiting for Chris to admonish.


Free Range.

Be accountable for your own words and actions.

Please.

We're done now. You know how to reach me.

Good luck finding your pup. I don't have time to play games.

Chris

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Free Range.
> 
> Be accountable for your own words and actions.
> 
> ...


We're done here folks.

Free Range, I don't think this is working out. 

Good luck finding the right dog, at the right price with the right breeding philosophy, at the right price.

Chris


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