# Did Rex Carr ever write any books on training?



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Just wondering.

Also, I have another question:

Back in the really old days, wasn't it the dogma that you really locked the dog down on marking before moving on to handling? That is to say, did one much put a lot of emphasis on a dog handling much before their derby years were up? I kinda thought that was from D.L. but it's been years since I could find my copy of the book so I could be wrong.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

That reminds me. I wonder if Vickie Lamb will ever get her book finished.


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## Beanboots (Apr 5, 2014)

I have been wanting to ask that very same question. For me, that would be a "must have" book!


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

There is a DVD set that Rex Carr did with Dave Rorem that is available through YBS Media.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I have a copy of Rex Carr's notes ... a 3" binder full of notes. I don't believe he ever made it any further than that. I loaned the notes to Vickie Lamb for work on her book but don't know whether she's completed it.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

I have a binder that says "Dog Training Bible" on an attached label and it is Rex Carr notes. I used to have a lot of loose notes from him stuck in folders given to me by others, and would have to go back through my many file drawers to see where they are. When I first started and was trying to find someone who could throw some birds for my dog --- I wanted a wc on her --- through serendipity I met someone who had kept a Lab with Rex for years. She had lots of copies of old letters he had written to clients, etc. Really interesting and a treasure trove. Am not sure what her family did with them once she died. The family was from out of the area and if I had known more in those days, I would have tracked them down and tried to get hold of the letters.

There are some excellent pros out there that spent a lot of time working with Rex, such as Rorem, Sargenti, Patopea, etc., and I bet they have some notebooks lying around somewhere. 

Glenda

Glenda


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Eric Johnson said:


> I have a copy of Rex Carr's notes ... a 3" binder full of notes. I don't believe he ever made it any further than that. I loaned the notes to Vickie Lamb for work on her book but don't know whether she's completed it.


Was this 10 years ago? I'd bet pretty good money that book never sees the light of day.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Glenda Brown said:


> There are some excellent pros out there that spent a lot of time working with Rex, such as Rorem, Sargenti, Patopea, etc., and I bet they have some notebooks lying around somewhere. Glenda


Add to your list of pros Danny Farmer, Don Remien, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Jim Kappes.

Billy Sargenti grew up with Rex and of the pros mentioned had vastly more exposure to him. The amateurs, Lanse and Dana Brown, Judy (Weikel) Aycock, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Delma Hazzard to name a few had significantly more time with Rex than any pro except Billy. Rex's notes were copied and widely distributed but as anyone who was around him over a long period of time can attest he was subject to change as happened most visibly with selection.

Beyond Rex's immense primary contributions to dog training came the secondary ones passed by some of the above to the next generation of trainers e.g. Dana to Remien, Judy to Danny, Kappes to Lardy etc.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

O


EdA said:


> Add to your list of pros Danny Farmer, Don Remien, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Jim Kappes.
> 
> Billy Sargenti grew up with Rex and of the pros mentioned had vastly more exposure to him. The amateurs, Lanse and Dana Brown, Judy (Weikel) Aycock, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Delma Hazzard to name a few had significantly more time with Rex than any pro except Billy. Rex's notes were copied and widely distributed but as anyone who was around him over a long period of time can attest he was subject to change as happened most visibly with selection.
> 
> Beyond Rex's immense primary contributions to dog training came the secondary ones passed by some of the above to the next generation of trainers e.g. Dana to Remien, Judy to Danny, Kappes to Lardy etc.


Great history of the game info right here Ed. Thanks.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

A book ?
Whenever you talk ,all you do is say what you already know.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I have Rex Carr notes from Lanse and his former wife Dana Brown...Dana is credited with teaching both Don Remien and Jack Vollstedt how to train a dog....and depending on who you ask, she also taught Lanse :razz::razz:

Jim Dobbs was also a Rex Carr assistant for about 5 yrs, but they parted ways after some philosophical differences...Jim then teamed with Alice Woodyard to produce the Tri Troniics training book...He had some input on the R&D of the variable frequency collar as we know it today


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

EdA said:


> Add to your list of pros Danny Farmer, Don Remien, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Jim Kappes.
> 
> Billy Sargenti grew up with Rex and of the pros mentioned had vastly more exposure to him. The amateurs, Lanse and Dana Brown, Judy (Weikel) Aycock, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Delma Hazzard to name a few had significantly more time with Rex than any pro except Billy. Rex's notes were copied and widely distributed but as anyone who was around him over a long period of time can attest he was subject to change as happened most visibly with selection.
> 
> Beyond Rex's immense primary contributions to dog training came the secondary ones passed by some of the above to the next generation of trainers e.g. Dana to Remien, Judy to Danny, Kappes to Lardy etc.


Dr. Ed has identified a key often ignored contribution. Rex's 2nd generation protégées!! And I daresay there is a 3rd generation now! There are tons of notes floating around, some from Rex, some letters to clients and most by his students. 

Rex was constantly changing details, based on the record of notes andthose who knew him. His standards and passion for the dogs never changed. But the Rex Carr on the Carr/Rorem DVD is quite different than the earlier Carr.

I suspect extremely few really understood Rex and his lateral thinking and insight into dogs. Perhaps Judy Aycock came closest and at the end Rorem, who became Rex's major pass along disciple, along of course with long time student Sargenti. 

As Dr.Ed identified Lardy learned Rex's program steps from Kappes but Mike did a study visit with Rex in the late 90's. He tweaked the BB Blinds and Tune-ups to what many of us follow today. In my study visit to Rex, with Rorem, I learned much and refined my training. Drills like my swim-by tune-up and cast into water drill and water tune-ups had their genesis from Rex.

I, like others, who have much more experience, with could go on and on, but I fear there will never be an accurate chronicle of the real story about Rex including all the evolution and game-changing developments!!

PS. There is an audio tape of a Rex Carr workshop in the 70's in Colorado! It is gold. Try to find it!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Judy A. came closest


No one knew or understood him better. 
When the 1995 NRC was dedicated to Rex Judy passionately spoke about Rex and his contributions to retriever training, it was a moving and emotional presentation even for me.


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## Beanboots (Apr 5, 2014)

We have some extremely talented and very well respected members. I would like to ask if they would share their stories,some of his teachings and the history of Rex Carr. Possibly in a new thread? Many of us try to use his methods and struggle,few had the privilege of meeting him and fewer to be his students.


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

What's the word on Vicki Lamb's efforts to consolidate his writings for a book or two? Granted this thread from Refuge Forums http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=314241 is 10 years old, but at least it shows at one time she was in the process of putting one together.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I had the tapes of Rex's seminar put on CD....

I also scanned in numerous binders of notes....

 I'm a junkie.


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

bumped this to the top. Interesting. Was the book ever finished? I'd be very interested in reading Rex's notes and thoughts about training.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Add Mark Smith to the list as well.



EdA said:


> Add to your list of pros Danny Farmer, Don Remien, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Jim Kappes.
> 
> Billy Sargenti grew up with Rex and of the pros mentioned had vastly more exposure to him. The amateurs, Lanse and Dana Brown, Judy (Weikel) Aycock, Rick and Patti Roberts, and Delma Hazzard to name a few had significantly more time with Rex than any pro except Billy. Rex's notes were copied and widely distributed but as anyone who was around him over a long period of time can attest he was subject to change as happened most visibly with selection.
> 
> Beyond Rex's immense primary contributions to dog training came the secondary ones passed by some of the above to the next generation of trainers e.g. Dana to Remien, Judy to Danny, Kappes to Lardy etc.


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

I just dug up an old training manual I've had for some time. (new dog showing a ton of potential has got my juices flowing to get back training and running events eventually). 
Was given to me by a trainer I worked for one winter. There is no cover and it is written as notes by what I am guessing is a student of Rex Carr taking notes directly from Rex, almost like it is an interview or class. It is very extensive, but jumps around a lot. Hand drawn diagrams, with typed (not computer) notes/explanation. Lots of reference to this persons dog named "Doc". Quite obvious these notes are not written by Rex, but dictated directly from Rex Carr. Just curious who the person was who wrote it. Only reference was their dog "Doc".


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Could be Delma


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Could be Delma


Likely was Delma. Thankfully she is back in the sport and doing very well. Training with her is a blast, and you will learn a lot. She loves helping new people in the sport.


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Could be Delma



Oh my....I bet you are right...Delma Hazzard NAFC FC AFC Dude's Double or Nothin' "Doc" 

I'd guess this manual was written sometime in the mid to late 1970's.


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## Hotchocolate (Jun 24, 2011)

I have a Rex Carr &Dave Rorem Training manual, 46 pages,mentions thanking Delma for the use of some of her notes.The booklet is typed . Don't know where i got it have probably had it 20 years or more.


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## coresounder1 (May 4, 2017)

Just curious does anyone know if the book ever got finished? 

Also would anyone be willing to make a copy of some of those notes from Rex and share with a young trainer? I'd be willing to pay for the time and materials to make the copy's and cost of shipping.


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

I still have my copy of his notes, they are somewhere in storage. Maybe I will find them someday.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

coresounder1 said:


> Just curious does anyone know if the book ever got finished?
> 
> Also would anyone be willing to make a copy of some of those notes from Rex and share with a young trainer? I'd be willing to pay for the time and materials to make the copy's and cost of shipping.


Vicki Lamb was working on a book years ago but nothing came of it. I have pages of Rex notes but they are almost 50 years old, interesting historically but less relevant given the meteoric advance in technology and training technique. He was an innovator with great insight into dog behavior. He possessed an uncanny instinct into training. I was fortunate to have spent so time looking over his shoulder and running my dog with him looking over my shoulder. Most successful field trial trainers today have principles learned from Rex or passed down to them and then to the third and fourth generation of trainers.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Having not been around a long time but, having spent a lot of time with some old timers, listening to the stories from second and third hands and trying to remember how the old timers told them to me. Wish I would have written more down. Not many stories I see people write down here line up well with how the guys playing in the 1960s tell them


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

EdA said:


> Vicki Lamb was working on a book years ago but nothing came of it. I have pages of Rex notes but they are almost 50 years old, interesting historically but less relevant given the meteoric advance in technology and training technique. He was an innovator with great insight into dog behavior. He possessed an uncanny instinct into training. I was fortunate to have spent so time looking over his shoulder and running my dog with him looking over my shoulder. Most successful field trial trainers today have principles learned from Rex or passed down to them and then to the third and fourth generation of trainers.


Well -- I am still working on the Rex book. I have all of his archives. I have his youth scrapbooks, slides and 8 mm movies, his high school and college diplomas, his scrapbooks and notes on WWII and his participation as a Major, his Purple Heart, his chess set, his military uniform and American Flag, his Library, his music, and most important, all of his meticulous training notes, and all the folders and files he kept on every person and every dog that ever came through CL2 and Escalon, and his National notes. And an amazing collection of photos. I have handwritten notes of his, typed notes of his, and even floppy disk records from when he was transcribing things to the new computer age. And many various copies of the different sets of notes that have circulated among retriever folk throughout the country. 

When I went out to Rex's I had a budget to stay for 6 weeks under extreme budgeting and ended up staying for 2+ years that first trip. We shared much besides dog training, most particularly his horses/cutting horses, pack trips, and memory drills, among many other special things. While coming back one night from a weekend pack trip and creeping down the mountain in a blinding snow, he shared a story about a mountain lion hunting trip with the legendary Wiley Carroll, and a hound named Pilot. (I had by this time shipped my young hound out to Escalon from South Carolina, having learned of Rex's affinity for hounds.) ---- 

To fast forward, a few years later, I wrote a story about that specific lion hunt, and sent a copy to Rex. He was astounded at the accurate attention to detail about many things large and small "that I couldn't have known and how did I do that" ... and then I shared with him that I had also interviewed Wiley himself during the creation of that story. (Wiley was a legendary lion hunter from Ely, Nevada.) It was then when Rex began discussing book matters with me, and specifically because of the detailed, accurate nature of that article, as well as additional things that had occurred in daily, real-time life that mattered to him, of which those specifics are very special. It was at this time that Rex authorized me to write a book about him, and we began exchanging information .... 

This has been a tremendous effort and one that I surely wish was already completed, I travel with parts of this book and continue to work on it. My goal is to have it completed as early as possible in 2022, and possibly sooner.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

I look forward to Vickie's book, hopefully sooner than later. 

My memory of Rex Carr is seeing him in person at the McCall trial. Every day at breakfast in the local eatery 
those clients still competing had breakfast with Rex. Not a competitor meant you ate at a different table. The 
4 days we attended meant the table got smaller daily. Until I met & became friends with Lanse I did not really 
understand the mentality behind that setting.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

A monumental task for sure Vicki! I would venture to guess that your attention to detail and ability to articulate the detail will be well worth the wait!!!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> I look forward to Vickie's book, hopefully sooner than later.
> 
> My memory of Rex Carr is seeing him in person at the McCall trial. Every day at breakfast in the local eatery
> those clients still competing had breakfast with Rex. Not a competitor meant you ate at a different table. The
> ...


Marvin sincere thanks for sharing these words. It is impactful to me. 

Chris.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> I look forward to Vickie's book, hopefully sooner than later.
> 
> My memory of Rex Carr is seeing him in person at the McCall trial. Every day at breakfast in the local eatery
> those clients still competing had breakfast with Rex. Not a competitor meant you ate at a different table. The
> ...


Maybe explains Lance a little better.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> Well -- I am still working on the Rex book. I have all of his archives. I have his youth scrapbooks, slides and 8 mm movies, his high school and college diplomas, his scrapbooks and notes on WWII and his participation as a Major, his Purple Heart, his chess set, his military uniform and American Flag, his Library, his music, and most important, all of his meticulous training notes, and all the folders and files he kept on every person and every dog that ever came through CL2 and Escalon, and his National notes. And an amazing collection of photos. I have handwritten notes of his, typed notes of his, and even floppy disk records from when he was transcribing things to the new computer age. And many various copies of the different sets of notes that have circulated among retriever folk throughout the country.
> 
> When I went out to Rex's I had a budget to stay for 6 weeks under extreme budgeting and ended up staying for 2+ years that first trip. We shared much besides dog training, most particularly his horses/cutting horses, pack trips, and memory drills, among many other special things. While coming back one night from a weekend pack trip and creeping down the mountain in a blinding snow, he shared a story about a mountain lion hunting trip with the legendary Wiley Carroll, and a hound named Pilot. (I had by this time shipped my young hound out to Escalon from South Carolina, having learned of Rex's affinity for hounds.) ----
> 
> ...





Good to hear it is still a work in progress. It interests me greatly not only for the dog related stuff but for it's historical value. Thanks for the update.


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## P T Brown (Apr 11, 2017)

The two books currently available from, and written by Ken Thorsen "Competitive Retriever Training" and "Transitional Training for Retrievers" both make significant reference Rex Carr's methods, philosophy and history. I have both books and find them valuable


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