# Lab breeders leaving Dewclaws on?



## dogshom (Mar 16, 2010)

Does anyone know of breeders who are keeping dewclaws on?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't know of any. But I wish mine would have.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Ive got a few scars from them and tore up furniture. Just a thought


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Glad they don't. Just looks creepy and an accident waiting to happen.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

With many buyers that is the first question they ask, is if they are off. I also think they look bad and I have never heard of one with them off getting carpal arthritis


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## mapman (Nov 13, 2008)

Purchased my golden pup from a b
reeder who believes in not removing dew claws.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Most conformation breeders leave them on. 

For those who claim they help with traction, sled dog breeders remove them. Just saying : )

Meredith


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

mwk56 said:


> Most conformation breeders leave them on.
> 
> For those who claim they help with traction, sled dog breeders remove them. Just saying : )
> 
> Meredith


I can only imagine if the snow is crusted over, what that'd look like... .a trail of blood.

I had pup owners w/ 2 "career changed" Guide Dogs. The one could not even play for 5-10 min in my field w/o the dews becoming bloody. Have another pup owner whose breeder supposedly removed the older dogs' dews and they grew back-- causing nothing but trouble, and have been quoted $500 to remove them now as an adult.

Like Nancy, I've yet to hear of any of mine having carpal arthritis. Even the one who has 3 MACHs and 2 PACHs (the most recent on the weekend of his 12th birthday). I think there is far more to that story than just dew removal, though I like a lot of what Chris Zink has to say regarding early spay / neuter. 

I plan to have my vets continue to remove them. They are using laser now to do it. Never had a problem.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I should think you'd have to request such way before the litter is even born, then you'd have to somehow convince a breeder to do it, of course you'd have to know which pup your getting and attempting to convince a field breeder might drop you off the list completely. Most Field breeders, those that run events, do health testing etc. take them off, most field people want them off. I have a girl from a BYB with them on, I can't tell you how many times I've wished they were gone; contrary wise I've never regretted any of my other working dogs not having them. I would not be convinced to leave them on any of my pups, one dog with those PITA, get caught on everything, ice bleeding, rip and tear, dewclaws is enough for my lifetime.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Most quality field dog breeders remove the dewclaws. Most of the show breeders I know of, do not- 
Like both, Anne, and Nancy (erinsedge), I have yet to see a carpal problem on a dog with dews off. Lots of us, who have many dogs-have had many dogs and have had many dogs IN ( I have a training /boarding kennel), can all agree that we've not seen the alleged issues caused by dews being removed. 
I always take mine off at 3 days- do I enjoy it? NO- but Its something I feel strongly needs to be done on puppies,particularly ones that will be worked in the field.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

I guess I'm the only black sheep here breeding field dogs with dewclaws on. No issues with snow, furniture, being caught on things while hunting, etc. Less issues with wiping out at speed on slick surfaces like wet grass. They need to be trimmed regularly, like all nails should be to prevent increased risk of injury.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I guess my take on it is that I have seen many many many coyotes, foxes, wolves come through the taxidermy shop and I have never ever seen one with dew claw missing. Seen lots of other injuries. .. but no torn off dew claws. Rear dew claws should always be removed.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> I can only imagine if the snow is crusted over, what that'd look like... .a trail of blood.
> 
> I had pup owners w/ 2 "career changed" Guide Dogs. The one could not even play for 5-10 min in my field w/o the dews becoming bloody. Have another pup owner whose breeder supposedly removed the older dogs' dews and they grew back-- causing nothing but trouble, and have been quoted $500 to remove them now as an adult.
> 
> ...


Sled dog breeders remove them so that booties are easier to fit, they normally secure right where the dewclaw sits. Dews aren't removed to better punch through crusty snow as most people would not be running their dogs on such a surface in the first place. As far as traction goes..... sled dogs move in a straight line, and don't require a lot of lateral stability for their job description. I think agility dogs might be a better example of dogs who put dewclaws to good use for traction. My Labs with dewclaws run on a sled and don't have any issues with crusty snow, nor while just playing in snow, or shed hunting which happens on any type of unpacked snow surface. The ones without dewclaws do noticeably slip more on a wet surface, take longer to make hard stops, and can't turn as sharp as those who still have them. My personal observations and the reason I started leaving them on. 

With regards to carpal arthritis, I don't think the absence of symptoms necessarily means the absence of an issue, these dogs are tough. Only when we all start x-raying our senior dogs to see how they've held up will that question be answered properly.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

All of my litters have their dew claws removed at 3 days of age. That in itself is a problem for some breeders taking 7-11 pups to the vet, quite a hassle, Vet only as those home grown techniques don't work.
The Brits don't agree w this as they say .............? But I see no use for them and potential problems. Worth the initial cost to remove as well as the hassle to do so.


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## fishin444 (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't leave the dew claws on my pups. It's just an accident waiting to happen IMHO.


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## kims (Jan 9, 2010)

All I can say is I have had 4 High level Labrador agility dogs over the past 15 years. The two that did not have dew claws..both developed arthritis in their other toes. The other 2 with their dew claws left on did not. 

I would prefer to have the dews left on. Yes.. they are more work to keep trimmed. But it is the thumb of the dog and they need it for gripping and turning at speed. I am not sure if the carpus is the right joint to be looking at. I would be looking at Metacarpal joint arthritis in the adjacent digits. Think about how well you could hang on to something without your thumbs...
.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

I leave dews on. My guys have tight small ones. I have more problems with dogs pulling nail sheaths off. And I dremel my guys often. Nothing like running around on bloody pulp.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Maybe the arthritis related to the venue, agility, and not field.


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

Erin Lynes said:


> I guess I'm the only black sheep here breeding field dogs with dewclaws on. No issues with snow, furniture, being caught on things while hunting, etc. Less issues with wiping out at speed on slick surfaces like wet grass. They need to be trimmed regularly, like all nails should be to prevent increased risk of injury.


It has been pretty usual to have dewclaws removed from pups and with good reasoning. Lately, though, it seems some people are preferring to keep them. About a year ago, there was a video posted of dogs with and without dewclaws climbing onto an icy shore and the ones with dewclaws dug out much better. Also, I think it is a must to have a vet do the removal. I have seen a couple pups botched by their breeder's attempt at doing the job.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

johngoehl said:


> It has been pretty usual to have dewclaws removed from pups and with good reasoning. Lately, though, it seems some people are preferring to keep them. About a year ago, there was a video posted of dogs with and without dewclaws climbing onto an icy shore and the ones with dewclaws dug out much better. Also, I think it is a must to have a vet do the removal. I have seen a couple pups botched by their breeder's attempt at doing the job.


Yes, I understand the tradition - used to be among the crowd of removers myself. 'Back in the day' when I did remove dewclaws, I did them myself and never had a problem with the removal process/healing. The very last litter where I had dewclaws removed was done by a vet and half of them grew back all gnarly, so I think the skill of the remover can vary whether they are a vet or a breeder. That litter is now 12 1/2 years old and all of my litters since have kept their dewclaws on. They go to hunting, HT/FT, agility, SAR, flyball, obedience and active pet homes. No serious dewclaw injuries in all that time. Luckily, none have ever needed to use their dews to save themselves from drowning in icy water either. I hope my puppy owners are smart enough to keep there dogs out of those sorts of situations though.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Totally on the enlightened side of not removing dew claws.
Google the article by Dr. ZINK and come to your own conclusions.
Several hunters buying our recent litter of Goldens and were happy we were keeping them on, one even checked with his Vet first and Vet said fine to keep them latest research may even support keeping them. We did have one hunter that wanted them off, he went somewhere else. No problem his choice We understand.
Colleen


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

I am strongly considering to go to the other side. I have removed dewclaws for every litter I have had at 3 days of age. Does not cost me much-LOL. I have changed my technique and quit trying to close them, they healed much better the last litter. But referencing that article by Dr. Zink, and reviewing the anatomy, there are 7 ligaments attached to the dewclaw. Many people in the English setter community are now leaving the dewclaws on to decrease the chance of carpal arthritis. I have not seen carpal arthritis in my dogs but have seen some digital (toe) joint arthritis, am not sure they are related. But am strongly considering leaving them on the next litter. 
Also some dogs have tighter dewclaws than others and that may be a factor of who gets injured and who does not.
So I no longer believe that removing them is a no brainer, there is consequences to removing them, and there may be consequences to leaving them.
Have not 100% made up my mind yet.


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

The vet did the last litter and half grew back so I left the dew claws on for my recent litter. I kept 2 and will be keeping their dew claws short. I liked the way these pups move, turn on a dime and handle rough terrain so far.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Gosh, another interesting US/UK difference. I don't think anyone over here removes dew claws on labs nowadays. Although I think possibly a long time ago it used to be done. I've certainly never come across a lab without front dew claws.

I think they are massively important. I've formed that opinion watching my dogs scramble up very steep rocky slopes where they are really using those 'thumbs' for grip and traction. I've also watched my dogs use them to 'hold' something they are chewing, such as a bone.

We do a lot of work in thick cover and over obstacles (stock fences, dry stone walls, steep *****/ditches etc) and I've never had an issue with my dogs having them. In my history of owning dogs, I have had one torn dew claw - but I've had more torn other claws.... and yes, the arthritis information that has now come to light is also interesting.


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## dogshom (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks Erin Lynes & others for the information-I feel strongly that I want dewclaws on my next dog. The "potential" for injury doesn't seem like a good enough reason to remove them to me-given that yes, there are multiple tendon attachments to the dewclaw. We've had multiple dogs of various breeds living in the country with various terrain and never had a dewclaw injury. But I also think breeders need to do what they feel is best for their litters. Interesting that more Golden breeders are leaving them on.


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## kims (Jan 9, 2010)

If it is the venue causing the toe arthritis.( agility). Not sure then why the other 2 dogs with their dews intact did not develop the same toe arthritis. Even watching my dogs run out for bumpers and do field work, the two with dews intact seemed to be able to turn easier and quicker snatching up their bumpers. I know they can hang on to the teeter board at full speed better with those dews as well. It is interesting to hear that in the UK they are left on. I would prefer my next pup have their dews for several reasons. I was a Certified Hand Therapist in my earlier life. I know how important a thumb is and how much stability in the hand is lost when that digit is amputated not to mention the functional loss. I am not saying that dogs use their thumbs like humans do, but it is a structural component of the dog's foot.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

I took them off on the last litter.... mostly because I felt buyers expected it. I did leave dewclaws on one puppy going to a search/rescue type home, which meant that their puppy was picked for them at 3 days.

I've owned dogs with dewclaws who work in the field and have never seen an injury. IMO the "it's an injury waiting to happen" line is BS. Rear dews ought to come off, no reason fronts need to. I may leave them on in the future, haven't decided yet.


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## barbless (Aug 9, 2015)

I remember a brochure from Kellogg Kennels from the 60's that noted they didn't remove the dewclaws from their dogs because they felt it helped dogs crawl out of icy water.
It would be interesting if some one has copy of the brochure. I think it has photo of a yellow lab jumping a fence with a fox in it's mouth!!
My one lab that had his front dewclaws had torn claws in crusted snow. The ones with removed dewclaws have had not foot or ankle issues.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

kennel maiden said:


> Gosh, another interesting US/UK difference. I don't think anyone over here removes dew claws on labs nowadays. Although I think possibly a long time ago it used to be done. I've certainly never come across a lab without front dew claws.
> 
> I think they are massively important. I've formed that opinion watching my dogs scramble up very steep rocky slopes where they are really using those 'thumbs' for grip and traction. I've also watched my dogs use them to 'hold' something they are chewing, such as a bone.
> 
> We do a lot of work in thick cover and over obstacles (stock fences, dry stone walls, steep *****/ditches etc) and I've never had an issue with my dogs having them. In my history of owning dogs, I have had one torn dew claw - but I've had more torn other claws.... and yes, the arthritis information that has now come to light is also interesting.


Ditto!
And as far as the Arthritic connection , never heard of it!! Had to google search and found it very hard to make a connection of JOINTS ? 
In 35 years in the shooting field in some of the most arduous terrain shore wildfowling , Upland Grouse to dense cover of bramble ,barbed wire fencing and obstacles an Agility dog would have a freeze on! ..I have only had one injury to a dew claw on a Lab and I'm more than certain it would still be the same injury if it had not had the dew claw on.
Just Lucky I guess?.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

It's my understanding that the practice of removing declaws was initiated by the show fancy as the foreleg had cleaner lines without the dewclaw. Over time it became an accepted practice and was even viewed as an indication of a "Good Breeder" as stated by Billie who in post number 10 said that "Most _quality _field dog breeders remove the dewclaws". 

My Harley daughter who had her dews removed had a carpal joint injury while hunting pheasants on steep RR embankments. Nearly all of my other Labs over the course of almost 30 years have had their dews intact. I hunt upland and we cover a good bit of ground looking for the few birds in Indiana. I also take the dogs to the woods while I work as a professional forester and they see a lot of varied terrain. In those many years I've never had a torn dewclaw on any of the many Labs I've owned.

I've got a relative's 13.5 year old lab visiting for a few weeks while they are finding a new home in VA. The tip of her tail is a bloody mess from getting whipped on door casings and kennel fencing. Should we dock our Lab's tails to prevent this issue from ever happening? Tail docking might help prevent cold tail too, which I've seen many threads about on RTF. What about docking ears? Anyone who's ever searched for pheasants where there are lots of briars has seen slashed ear flaps that can make a yellow Lab look like they lost a fight with a bobcat. Seems like the accident waiting to happen philosophy might apply to almost any appendage. 

I think dew claw's are a personal choice. I understand that once a person has had a bad experience with a torn dewclaw they may have a strong opinion on the subject, but for me I'm keeping my pups dewclaws intact for the many positive reasons discussed earlier in this thread. Maybe I'm an enlightened black sheep?!? (Or just a stubborn old goat!)

Swack


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## mapman (Nov 13, 2008)

Here is an interesting video about dews claws.

https://youtu.be/r4XflsMEk-k


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks for sharing! Not sure I would be willing to put my dogs in that position, but it certainly shows how dewclaws can be an asset.


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## jenbrowndvm (Sep 25, 2011)

I am always glad to see these discussions as I think it is good that we question why we do things, rather than "it's just the way it is done 'round here." Especially when talking about the health and welfare of our dogs and how we choose to maintain them. 

Currently there is no concrete scientific evidence that shows an association between carpal or digit arthritis and dew claw removal. Dr. Zink in her articles makes some very good points, but at this time there are no studies that show a concrete association between carpal injuries and dew claw removal. 

Although many have stated that they have not experienced carpal or digit arthritis in their FT/HT/hunting dogs, as a veterinarian that works on a lot of these dogs, I will say that it does exist and many dogs are treated for problems in this area. It may not have an incidence as high as other areas (stifle, shoulders, etc.), but it certainly is not a rare issue. 

We could also speculate that if you remove a structure that potentially helps stabilize during turning, how does that affect the entire limb - not just the carpus? We have a pretty high incidence of shoulder and elbow issues in our retrievers as well, could it be related? Is dew claw removal changing the biomechanics of the entire limb? While they may not make the same turns as agility dogs, they do make very hard turns on uneven terrain. Do a slow motion video of a hard-charging dog sitting to a whistle and see how hard they stop, dig in, and turn on the forehand. 

In addition, I wonder about the actual incidence of dew claw injury compared to any other nail injury. This is a difficult one, as a majority of retrievers have them amputated. I have treated many injuries to the other nails of the feet. It appears that nail maintenance is not a priority (lots of very long nails out there) so this may predispose to injury to any nail. It would be interesting to know actual incidence, but the population is very skewed due to how common dew claw removal is. My Labs that do both field and Urban Search and Rescue work all have their dew claws. I have not have had them injure them either in the field or on the rubble pile to date. An observation of a very small population of dogs with dew claws. 

It may be that we find that there is no effect of removing the dew claws on limb biomechanics and the incidence of injury (acute or chronic) in the front limbs and you choose remove them based on preference. Or it may be found that we are increasing risk of injury in the forelimbs. 

In the meantime, without strong scientific evidence either way it will come down to what your personal preference and experience is. I would not pass up buying a good puppy/dog if they had dew claws removed. As a breeder, competitor, and sports medicine vet I choose to leave them - that is my preference. 

I have attached radiographs of a dog with dew claw removal as well as one without so you can see what it looks like radiographically.


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

mwk56 said:


> Most conformation breeders leave them on.
> 
> For those who claim they help with traction, sled dog breeders remove them. Just saying : )
> 
> Meredith


Our conformation labs from well known breeder judges had them removed. The FC/AFC sired ones still have them


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

windycanyon said:


> I can only imagine if the snow is crusted over, what that'd look like... .a trail of blood.
> 
> m.


Having spent many years in CT where we ended up with lots of crusty snow well trimmed dewy were never an issue. Spitting open the web between the toes was much more common and a nightmare to heal!


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## mcinteer1 (Feb 13, 2016)

My father never removes them from his english pointer field trial dogs. His never tear off or bleed when running for hours on end in the field. As they age, I've diagnosed carpal arthritis issues in a few of his dogs from years of wear and tear (as his vet). This doesn't prove removing them does or doesn't lead to carpal issues, but it does point out carpal issues occur in dogs with dewclaws and without. That makes me question the validity of claims that removing them is the cause of carpal issues, without scientific proof (and there is none). 

I remove them from my dogs and many client dogs.


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## actionjaxon (Apr 9, 2016)

You wish your dog had it's dew claws yet? I guess I'm not sure what to think, my pup now has his dew claws, and he is almost 11 weeks.

I'm reading all kinds of mixed reviews on this topic.


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## Hitch (Aug 23, 2015)

Personally I have asked breeders not to remove any of my dogs dew claws. I have yet to have a dog get injured or bleed due to this.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Interesting opinions. I used to routinely have dew claws removed on all my litters, because "that's what quality breeders did" and it kind of went along with getting the appropriate clearances on the sire and dam. I had an accidental litter born one bitterly cold January a few years back, and cancelled the appt. to have the pups' dew claws removed when the vet's office said they'd had several cases of parvo. The dog I kept from that litter has her dew claws and is, by far, the most athletic, agile dog I've ever owned. Of course that might be a coincidence. It also might be a coincidence that in the past 3 years I've had several buyers, all avid hunters, request dew claws be left on. This presents a problem since you don't know which pup is going to which buyer at 3 days, so on those litters (both small) I left them on all the pups. I'm increasingly leaning toward leaving them on all litters now. My newest pup was a singleton that I am keeping, so I left hers on. Her dam is my dog that has her dew claws, and while she's had nail injuries like my other dogs, her small, tight dew claws have never been a problem.



NateB said:


> I am strongly considering to go to the other side. I have removed dewclaws for every litter I have had at 3 days of age. Does not cost me much-LOL. I have changed my technique and quit trying to close them, they healed much better the last litter. But referencing that article by Dr. Zink, and reviewing the anatomy, there are 7 ligaments attached to the dewclaw. Many people in the English setter community are now leaving the dewclaws on to decrease the chance of carpal arthritis. I have not seen carpal arthritis in my dogs but have seen some digital (toe) joint arthritis, am not sure they are related. But am strongly considering leaving them on the next litter.
> Also some dogs have tighter dewclaws than others and that may be a factor of who gets injured and who does not.
> So I no longer believe that removing them is a no brainer, there is consequences to removing them, and there may be consequences to leaving them.
> Have not 100% made up my mind yet.


Since I've had both, (and all my dogs are related and similar in size/structure) I don't see any difference. It also seems more "PC" to be able to leave them on, whereas 10 years ago if you left them on it was considered a big no no. My personal preference, along with several other long time Chesapeake owners I know, has changed to leaving them.


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