# Tallgrass kennels in arkansas



## rhill14 (Feb 14, 2011)

does anyone have any experience with them or their dogs? Had heard a few good things about them but nothing in depth. Looking for a dog that is not so wired all the time as it will be a pet as much or more than a working dog during duck season. Don't currently have plans to run trials but that may change. Will also be first true hunting dog, have had dogs (labs and boxer) and trained them all but not to the full extent of a true hunting lab if that makes sense. thanks for any help and insight


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

A google search brings them up as small scale breeders of British labs. Nice looking webpage. My only concern/question is whether they complete the standard health testing such as hips, elbows, eyes, eic, cnm etc. I would be asking for health certifications and written guarentees before I would even consider purchasing.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

If you're interested in getting taken advantage of by a slick marketing program marketing "fat British Labs" that offers no Health guarantees or indication of performance capabilities then they'll probably the serve the purpose just as well as any of the other hundreds of kennels providing the same BS


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

There is not one word about any health certs. They probably bought up a bunch of health cert rejects that were imported.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

As with the purchase of any pup or dog a buyer should always do their due diligence when it comes to researching a breeder. If the op is is interested in a pup from British/UK lines it is a good thing to keep in mind that many UK line breeders this side of the pond do not do all the health tests or working tests/titles tthat their American counterparts do. 

I have found only one who titles and health tests all their breeding stock to the level of most hunt test/ft breeders of 'American' labs - Imperial Labs... 

I bought my current UK line dog from a breeder who titles all their breeding stock and I 'thought' they did all health clearances but apparently not cerf.. they've advertised on rtf but had the ads removed due to lack of this info....

As far as being fat or lacking the ability to compete in hunt tests.... My dog passed every NAHRA test he entered this year (just barely 2)...1 hunter, 4 seniors.and one senior upland as well as completing the only derby' he entered. (3rd place of 6 lol)
.and was the youngest of a group of 4 to pass out of a field of 14 or 15 on one of the senior I dont view Toby as a 'great dog' but he is very honest and does have a high desire to please as well as retrieve. Also think he is a good looking boy... lacking drive? Hmmmm


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Tobias said:


> As with the purchase of any pup or dog a buyer should always do their due diligence when it comes to researching a breeder. If the op is is interested in a pup from British/UK lines it is a good thing to keep in mind that many UK line breeders this side of the pond do not do all the health tests or working tests/titles tthat their American counterparts do.
> 
> I have found only one who titles and health tests all their breeding stock to the level of most hunt test/ft breeders of 'American' labs - Imperial Labs...
> 
> ...


Good point that they couldn't even place an ad on this website with their lack of health testing!!


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

If you want a u.k. lab thats not a "FAT british lab", whatever the hell that means, then look at Southern Oak Kennels (Barton Ramsey), Imperial Retrievers (Kirk Keene) or Team Wild Wings (Cody Bellanger). They all have titled u.k. dogs.


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

You can PM me for more info. I have two from Southern Oak Kennels and one from Team Wild Wings.


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## Scott Krueger (Jan 25, 2008)

i didnt see many fat labs there. you must have been researching show labs


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## chieftman (Apr 14, 2009)

You would be far better off to go to the Tallgrass Kennels website and then The Kennel Club Online website and research health test and then talk to the kennel owners regarding their sires and dams than to take advice or even listen to a couple of the individuals posting on here.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

chieftman said:


> You would be far better off to go to the Tallgrass Kennels website and then The Kennel Club Online website and research health test and then talk to the kennel owners regarding their sires and dams than to take advice or even listen to a couple of the individuals posting on here.


 What does "The Kennel Club" have to do with dogs born, bred, and sold in the US? Does the UK club/breeders have more/different health tests that they perform?


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

chieftman said:


> You would be far better off to go to the Tallgrass Kennels website and then The Kennel Club Online website and research health test and then talk to the kennel owners regarding their sires and dams than to take advice or even listen to a couple of the individuals posting on here.


Better off talking to people who own their dogs, I would not trust something a breeder told me unless they had an incredible reputation. "Show me the clearance certificates"


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

chieftman said:


> You would be far better off to go to the Tallgrass Kennels website and then The Kennel Club Online website and research health test and then talk to the kennel owners regarding their sires and dams than to take advice or even listen to a couple of the individuals posting on here.


I did go to OFA (and it's not AKC that has the health testing results) No hips or elbows, a few eyes done, nothing listed and no PRA listed which is what they really need instead of just CERF. UK imports should always have PRA done.


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## rhill14 (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for the help and info, i will definitely be looking into health certs, speaking with the kennel owners etc. Was mainly seeing if anyone had any direct experience with them or their dogs


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## chieftman (Apr 14, 2009)

The Kennel Club in the UK is more than a registry-they accumulate health data submitted by vets in the UK. Some of the sires and dame posted on the Tallgrass Kennel website have pedigrees posted. Get the sires and dams registered names from the pedigrees and then go to The Kennel Club site and click on health test. Type in the dogs registered name in the space provided and you will find health test on this dog, the parents, the siblings, and progeny-if any. You can also get inbreeding coefficient and estimated breeding values from the website.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

chieftman said:


> The Kennel Club in the UK is more than a registry-they accumulate health data submitted by vets in the UK. Some of the sires and dame posted on the Tallgrass Kennel website have pedigrees posted. Get the sires and dams registered names from the pedigrees and then go to The Kennel Club site and click on health test. Type in the dogs registered name in the space provided and you will find health test on this dog, the parents, the siblings, and progeny-if any. You can also get inbreeding coefficient and estimated breeding values from the website.


That may be true, but why not put the links up there. Altiquin Gale says Irish Kennel club, which you have to join to get info. Not listed on UK kennel club at all under Health testing. Why not list the info on the website instead of Bible verses?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

chieftman said:


> The Kennel Club in the UK is more than a registry-they accumulate health data submitted by vets in the UK. Some of the sires and dame posted on the Tallgrass Kennel website have pedigrees posted. Get the sires and dams registered names from the pedigrees and then go to The Kennel Club site and click on health test. Type in the dogs registered name in the space provided and you will find health test on this dog, the parents, the siblings, and progeny-if any. You can also get inbreeding coefficient and estimated breeding values from the website.


 While that may be, you still haven't answered my question about more/different genetic test? Also what good does a UK registry do for a dog bred and sold in the US?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> While that may be, you still haven't answered my question about more/different genetic test? *Also what good does a UK registry do for a dog bred and sold in the US?*


Why, in the case of the clumber spaniel, it helped an entire breed conquer obesity toward regaining gundog status. "English Labs," not so much...but then again that breed ain't exactly "working" under the KC's aegis, either.

MG


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Also what good does a UK registry do for a dog bred and sold in the US?


. 
Well for one, imported sire, dam or grandsires would have come over with an Export Pedigree from The Kennel Club and armed with the kc registration number info on the dogs may be found although not always easy digging it up. Better than no info. 
For anyone wanting a British/Irish puppy another option is to go directly to folks over there and import a well bred puppy.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

rhill14 said:


> Thanks for the help and info, i will definitely be looking into health certs, speaking with the kennel owners etc. Was mainly seeing if anyone had any direct experience with them or their dogs


For what it's worth, I know two people that have had dogs from this kennel when they were located in South Dakota. The dogs were spectacular and they said the owners and kennel was top notch!


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## rhill14 (Feb 14, 2011)

vergy said:


> For what it's worth, I know two people that have had dogs from this kennel when they were located in South Dakota. The dogs were spectacular and they said the owners and kennel was top notch!


Awesome thanks, was hoping someone would have some experience with their dogs. thanks for the info


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

Rhill14- I got your PM and shot one back to you.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

vergy said:


> For what it's worth, I know two people that have had dogs from this kennel when they were located in South Dakota. The dogs were spectacular and they said the owners and kennel was top notch!


Not trying to be a pain, and I am sure those two people had a great experience and their dogs were great. But don't you think the kennel should still get the proper health clearances on their dogs that are producing puppies?


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

Not to be a pain back but... the way I see it is it isn't mine, yours or anyone else's business. Maybe they have clearances etc I really don't know. But the op can figure that out and make a decision that's best for them- not what keyboard jockies think. ps I prefer my dogs to have some health guarantees. pss I also believe some are waaaaay over tested.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

vergy said:


> Not to be a pain back but... the way I see it is it isn't mine, yours or anyone else's business. Maybe they have clearances etc I really don't know. But the op can figure that out and make a decision that's best for them- not what keyboard jockies think. ps I prefer my dogs to have some health guarantees. pss I also believe some are waaaaay over tested.


Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. 
MY opinion is that people posting on this thread are trying to assist the OP in a making an educated and informed decision on purchasing a pup they will love for 10+ years. I can appreciate that you prefer your dogs to have some clearances. My question to you is - what clearances do YOU prefer and then, why those clearances? 
My guess is your preferred health guarentees are based on experiences with either 1) your dogs or 2) people you know or they know who have heard of or known dogs that were not 100% healthy. 
I would bet that the recommendations of people who commented on this thread are also based on their experiences of seeing or knowing people who bought not-so healhy pups.
Nothing, and I really mean nothing, will affect you more than having a pup who is not healthy knowing you could have completed testing to be more confident that your pups are healthy. 
Same conversation can be said on vaccinations/vet visits. Do you get your pup/dog all their vaccinations or do you just vacinate for a few tht your deem important??
Something to think about.
Back to the original post. The pups from this breeder may be just fine. Just be smart and ask the questions.
Best of luck to you!!!!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

When one considers the amount of money spent on a 'uk' line pup like the ones offered by the afforementioned kennel... one would like to know their money is being wisely spent. IMO this means the breeder should be doing standard health clearances as recommended by the breed club. 

It would be an entirely different matter if somebody was buying a pup from a backyard breeding when commonly no health clearances are done.and pups are 250 to 500 dollars...


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

vergy said:


> I also believe some are waaaaay over tested.


What do you consider is over testing? Just asking.....


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

vergy said:


> Not to be a pain back but... *the way I see it is it isn't mine, yours or anyone else's business.* Maybe they have clearances etc I really don't know. But the op can figure that out and make a decision that's best for them- not what keyboard jockies think. ps I prefer my dogs to have some health guarantees. pss I also believe some are waaaaay over tested.


Actually, I kind of feel like it is *all* of our business. We should all want to encourage the betterment of the breed and the breeding of happy and healthy puppies. I am in *no way*saying that the kennel mentioned has not done the proper testing on their dogs. I have no idea if they have or not?? But I *am*encouraging the OP to widen his search for a puppy if the owner of a litter chooses not to get some basic health certs on the parents. And that way, as you say, the "op can figure that out and make a decision that's best for them." I am no keyboard jocky, just trying to help the OP, just like people did for me when I was buying my first pup. If you can buy a puppy with all the right certs and a great pedigree for the same price as a pup with a lesser known pedigree and no health certs? Which would you recommend to the OP?


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## Lorne MacDonald (Apr 15, 2004)

I know the Clair’s personally and have had the pleasure of visiting their kennels numerous times , before they relocated from Bryant, SD.

Contact Robert and Kipley directly re particular on clearances but they will have them . 

Observations- straight up, ethical breeders and trainers. Careful consideration into each breeding. Clean, well kept kennel, healthy happy dogs. They will tell you the particulars of each breeding, what they see as pros and cons.

Genuinely conscientious and care about their dogs and anyone that is interested.

You will be hard pressed to find a kennel that puts more effort into socializing the pups.

If they do not have the dog for you it will be obvious very quickly as they will explain very clearly and honestly what to expect from them , as a breeder and from a specific litter

I found their dogs to be healthy, athletic, birdy and a pleasure to work and be around.

First hand experience and observation, not internet speculation


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Lorne MacDonald said:


> Contact Robert and Kipley directly re particular on clearances but they will have them .


I don't understand the mentality of advertising a litter (or breeding program) without putting the health clearances in an advertisement with the dog's health info - either photos of the certificates or links to a database that has them recorded. It seems like a very good way to turn people away, IMO. Perhaps breeders who do this are hoping those with a keen interest in a puppy will ask? Or maybe they want to bring the subject up in a person to person discussion? Or?

I know there are breeders who have cerf done every year after a dog turns two, but don't submit the info to OFA - a relatively inexpensive decision, overall .. Seems like another really good way to turn off prospective puppy buyers right off the get go.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Lorne MacDonald said:


> I know the Clair’s personally and have had the pleasure of visiting their kennels numerous times , before they relocated from Bryant, SD.
> 
> 
> I found their dogs to be healthy, athletic, birdy and a pleasure to work and be around.
> ...


That's awesome to hear. Please ask them why they don't talk about or list the standard health clearances on their web page. I am in the market for a pup (this is why I even looked at this thread) and at this time, they don't seem forthwith about standard items purchasers are looking for, at least IMHO.
Thank You for posting up!!!


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## Lorne MacDonald (Apr 15, 2004)

Tobias said:


> I don't understand the mentality of advertising a litter (or breeding program) without putting the health clearances in an advertisement with the dog's health info - either photos of the certificates or links to a database that has them recorded. It seems like a very good way to turn people away, IMO. Perhaps breeders who do this are hoping those with a keen interest in a puppy will ask? Or maybe they want to bring the subject up in a person to person discussion? Or?
> 
> I know there are breeders who have cerf done every year after a dog turns two, but don't submit the info to OFA - a relatively inexpensive decision, overall .. Seems like another really good way to turn off prospective puppy buyers right off the get go.


Hard to say why. I guess for anyone that it bothers they should just go elsewhere and quit worrying about it

They produce a small number of pups and I’m quite sure that they place them with in good hands with no problem


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## Lorne MacDonald (Apr 15, 2004)

ripline said:


> That's awesome to hear. Please ask them why they don't talk about or list the standard health clearances on their web page. I am in the market for a pup (this is why I even looked at this thread) and at this time, they don't seem forthwith about standard items purchasers are looking for, at least IMHO.
> Thank You for posting up!!!


Again I’m not sure why you would not contact them directly.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Lorne MacDonald said:


> Again I’m not sure why you would not contact them directly.


I am in the early stages of reacquainting myself with the lab world as I have not purchased one for seven years. As partof educating myself, I have researched litters and lurked on several websites where litters are discussed. This is why I even opened this thread. 
I have a friend who has a British lab and he is a real nice dog. This is why I expanded my search this go around to include British labs.
A little history. I have an 11 yo male lab who is out of an NFC x MH that I found for a really reasonable price. I called the breeder and owner of the sire and after talking at length with them about the parents training characteristics, I pulled the trigger on the litter quickly. I felt that I did my due diligence. y boy Speck turned out to be an awesome retriever, easily trained and a great companian. Long story short, it appears that his NFC sire may hae been EIC affected, but never presented it and the bitch was untested. This was in the very early days of EIC testing and information was hard to acquire, especially for a novice.An EIC episode really sucks to see.

As a result, my due diligence requires all the health certifications readily available. There are MANY breeders/litters who test for nearly everything and provide certs on their web pages.All of which I can easily be VERIFIED through OFA which is a third party.

The breeder this thread references does not provide any information regarding health clearances of their litters. As a result, they didn't even pass my first step because information is not easily obtained. Based on their webpage, they appear to be poorly qualified. Why should I keep looking when there are literally hundreds of litters/breeders that make it REALLY easily.

That's why I didn't contact them directly, they didn't pass the litmus test!!!

BTW, 1) didn't bother me, 2) never worried about it, and 3) will DEFINITELY GO ELSEWHERE!!!!

There is a reason they produce a small number of puppies, I really hope they do go to good hands, and I really do hope they have no problems. Because without further information and/or testing, that cannot be guarenteed!!!


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## Lorne MacDonald (Apr 15, 2004)

I have no problem you eliminated them, did the same myself with many breeders ( Chesapeakes) many years ago

I guess my point is if I was interested enough to comment ( twice) on an Internet thread about them I likely would have used the time to contact them. Or I would have not wasted my time. That’s me , each to there own . And that is the Internet with many people commenting/speculating without any direct knowledge. Another reason I comment very very rarely. Once again that’s me which doesn’t mean it’s the answer 

I answered the thread only because someone asked and I had specific information. Don’t have a dog in the fight either way 

Good luck on your search and your resulting journey with your pup


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Lorne MacDonald said:


> I have no problem you eliminated them, did the same myself with many breeders ( Chesapeakes) many years ago
> 
> I guess my point is if I was interested enough to comment ( twice) on an Internet thread about them I likely would have used the time to contact them. Or I would have not wasted my time. That’s me , each to there own . And that is the Internet with many people commenting/speculating without any direct knowledge. Another reason I comment very very rarely. Once again that’s me which doesn’t mean it’s the answer
> 
> ...


Thank you Lorne,
Your input is greatly appreciated!!


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

excellent input Lorne! Well said. I had CONTACTED them a few years back after being around a couple that friends had. Hunted with etc. They were great! Then got reference from a guy on another site that claimed how wonderful his dog is. I could not get a hold of them right away but they called and texted me back shortly after. Such nice people and incredible knowledge. They actually weeded me out because I don't let my dogs sleep in the house. My family has allergies so we have nice runs outside etc. They only sell to buyers who will keep in house with family. They were very understanding of my situation and me of theirs. I also learned they have NO problems selling their litters so don't worry about giving them a second thought. They at times, have a large waiting list. Good luck on your search. By the way. Ive heard the kennel name Double T British Labs a 100 times for some of the best brits available. I have spoken to Haynes as well and he was great. Give them a look.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for the Double T British Labs reference!!
Exactly what I am looking for in a web site as far as information on their dogs.
Easy to get pedigree and ready reference health certs!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 
Also, one of their puppy testimonials is from Irishwhistler, who posts here.
Thank You!!


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

One piece of unsolicited advice...be sure to VERIFY any health clearances that may be stated. It's one thing to claim it, but another to actually prove it.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Kirk Keene said:


> One piece of unsolicited advice...be sure to VERIFY any health clearances that may be stated. It's one thing to claim it, but another to actually prove it.


Hip and elbow numbers were provided and easily confirmed through ofa website. EIC and CNM clear by parentage need a little more research for obvious reasons.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Kirk Keene said:


> One piece of unsolicited advice...be sure to VERIFY any health clearances that may be stated. It's one thing to claim it, but another to actually prove it.


This...... I made this mistake when I bought Toby and I will never again. It seems very disrespectful to me to basically have to 'call out' a breeder to 'prove' they have the clearances they say they do... I tend to have a more 'trusting' nature and like to think the best of people. Never again when it comes to buying a pup.


and also read the health guarantee thoroughly..... lots of breeders have all sorts of caveat. And again - a breeder can say guarantees against genetic defects - and then say, oh, that doesn't include juvenile cataracts by the way... or oh, that doesn't include elbows, etc etc.


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## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2018)

I bought a pup from Robert and Kipley over 10 years ago, when they were still in South Dakota. He has been an absolute joy. Their dogs were a revelation to me, and I'm pleased to have found an answer to my quest for a calm - yet high-octane hunting partner.

Monte is now 11, still has a spring in his step that's fun to watch, has dealt with hundreds of birds (ducks, pheasants, grouse), and is a pleasure to have in the field as well as in the house. Their breeding program is evident in the dogs produced.

Monte is roughly 65 pounds - sits calmly in the canoe or the duck blind (no matter what's going on), but turns into a black blur when sent. 

Around the house, he opens doors to check things out when no one's looking (yep - handles door knobs just fine) and I've watched him let himself out of the kennel, do his business, then go back in.

He's much "softer" than a typical American lab out of trial lines - and works to please rather than out of fear. Force-fetch based on pain isn't a good plan with these dogs. Maybe it would work - but I followed the cues from the dog when he was a little nubbin and we've pretty much got each other figured out. I can count on one hand the disappointments...

As calm as he is, when we run into bigger critters (such as bears or wolves) he becomes protective, and plants himself in between me and the problem. Another interesting thing is that he doesn't bark. He will - but it has to be something worthy of excitement, such as a large predator in the yard or a kid crying.












​


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Nice looking boy there Rob. Looks like he is a real pleasure to live and hunt with.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Nice looking boy there Rob. Looks like he is a real pleasure to live and hunt with.


Sure does. Just a little cockeyed with these implications - and any inferences made from:



[email protected] said:


> ...He's much "softer" than a typical American lab out of trial lines - and *works to please rather than out of fear. Force-fetch based on pain isn't a good plan with these dogs.*


MG


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Wasn't entirely sure what to make of that statement either - except that maybe his dog would not do well with the 'pressure' type training he associates being used with american ft lines... that he thinks US bred labs have less desire to please and therefore require more pressure tontrain?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> He's much "softer" than a typical American lab out of trial lines - and works to please rather than out of fear. Force-fetch based on pain isn't a good plan with these dogs. ​


That's not a good plan with any dog. If you think you can scare or inflict enough pain to make dog perform at a competitive level, you are sadly mistaken. Where did you get the idea that's what force based programs are about?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Wasn't entirely sure what to make of that statement either - except that maybe his dog would not do well with the 'pressure' type training he associates being used with american ft lines... that he thinks US bred labs have less desire to please and therefore require more pressure tontrain?


I disagree that 99% of dogs can't be trained under a Lardy type program. I'm currently training one that is very soft, and had absolutely no trouble with force fetch, force to pile, etc. Read your dog and train accordingly. Pressure should be 'just enough' and always, always, always teach before you test/enforce. Dogs handle pressure(at their level) very well when they've been thoroughly taught how to escape pressure and turn it off.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's typical parroting of the British marketing hype.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

ErinsEdge said:


> It's typical parroting of the British marketing hype.


But it's TRUE! lol

"fear based training" smh

Typical one and done poster. I wonder how many sites we can use the email address/profile name to sign up for "special" offers for ??


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## MikeJFalkner (Jul 17, 2014)

Tobias said:


> This...... I made this mistake when I bought Toby and I will never again. It seems very disrespectful to me to basically have to 'call out' a breeder to 'prove' they have the clearances they say they do... I tend to have a more 'trusting' nature and like to think the best of people. Never again when it comes to buying a pup.
> 
> 
> and also read the health guarantee thoroughly..... lots of breeders have all sorts of caveat. And again - a breeder can say guarantees against genetic defects - and then say, oh, that doesn't include juvenile cataracts by the way... or oh, that doesn't include elbows, etc etc.


I'll third this. Bought a pup from a very well known breeder who posted something vague like OFA hips and elbows. Turns out, the dam wasn't even two when the litter dropped and he only had a preliminary, and never bothered to follow up. Worked out OK, my girl has good OFA but I was pretty steamed at the time. I talked to him privately but chose not to smoke him in public, although I have PM'd a few folks who mentioned his kennel.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Peter Balzer said:


> But it's TRUE! lol
> 
> "fear based training" smh



I don't know - I think fear based training is still a part of the 'retriever culture' in the US - not every trainer and every dog....but..... It wasn't too many years ago when I saw someone using a bullwhip.... Heeling stick? Ecollar? ever seen or heard of these being used to create a 'fear based response'? I've seen dogs walk to the line at training groups and hunt tests 'in fear'.....

I just disagree that it is the only way US trainers train or need to train US bred FT dogs.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Tobias said:


> I don't know - I think fear based training is still a part of the 'retriever culture' in the US - not every trainer and every dog....but..... It wasn't too many years ago when I saw someone using a bullwhip.... Heeling stick? Ecollar? ever seen or heard of these being used to create a 'fear based response'? I've seen dogs walk to the line at training groups and hunt tests 'in fear'.....
> 
> I just disagree that it is the only way US trainers train or need to train US bred FT dogs.


How many trial dogs and how many FT training groups have you seen that makes you think fear based training is still relevant in the game? FT dogs must deal with a tremendous amount of MENTAL pressure, which is why they need lots of bottom end. This does not equate with sensitivity. Having a fearful dog at the line wouldn’t bode well for results. Competition favors what works and fear doesn’t. 

An opinion is grounded in experience. I don’t have too much but certainly have enough to know that fear based responses don’t tend to hold up very well. I encourage you to get out more before making said statements especially on a public forum.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Tobias said:


> I don't know - I think fear based training is still a part of the 'retriever culture' in the US - not every trainer and every dog....but..... It wasn't too many years ago when I saw someone using a bullwhip.... Heeling stick? Ecollar? ever seen or heard of these being used to create a 'fear based response'? I've seen dogs walk to the line at training groups and hunt tests 'in fear'.....
> 
> I just disagree that it is the only way US trainers train or need to train US bred FT dogs.


I don't think 'fear' has ever been a productive part of the US retriever training culture. We train our dogs with positive (successful retrieve or positive attention) and negative (correction, could be voice, ecollar, whistle, recall, etc). Dogs in fear shut down and perform poorly, why would someone who desires a high level of training and performance utilize fear? 

Well trained dogs (in US culture), do not fear the collar, the handler, the whistle, the line, the water etc they seek it out. They jump in the truck, they race to the line (sometimes to our detriment), they sit crisply to whistle, they do not cower at the heeling stick, and jump in the water eagerly. What US culture do you speak of? 

In getting these desired responses there will be mental and physical pressure applied. Do not confuse pressure with fear.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

I'm pretty sure/emphatically certain/adamantine in stating that Juli means "fear-based training" *marketing* as conveyed by our "gentlemanly" British Lab hucksters who plant the notion that "theirs" unlike "ours" would never-never-never be too much dog for somebody new to the game or waterfowling to handle.

Thus also planting (and marketing) the fear of uncertainty on how you would ever manage to train one of them wild-arsed 'Merican field trial or field-bred retrievers when an easier more positive and even "pretrained" in the womb option can be had for the gentlemanly sum of only $$$$....restricted breeding contract included. 



jrrichar said:


> How many trial dogs and how many FT training groups have you seen that makes you think fear based training is still relevant in the game? FT dogs must deal with a tremendous amount of MENTAL pressure, which is why they need lots of bottom end. This does not equate with sensitivity. Having a fearful dog at the line wouldn’t bode well for results. Competition favors what works and fear doesn’t.
> 
> An opinion is grounded in experience. I don’t have too much but certainly have enough to know that fear based responses don’t tend to hold up very well. I encourage you to get out more before making said statements especially on a public forum.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

crackerd said:


> I'm pretty sure/emphatically certain/adamantine in stating that Juli means "fear-based training" *marketing* as conveyed by our "gentlemanly" British Lab hucksters who plant the notion that "theirs" unlike "ours" would never-never-never be too much dog for somebody new to the game or waterfowling to handle.
> 
> Thus also planting (and marketing) the fear of uncertainty on how you would ever manage to train one of them wild-arsed 'Merican field trial or field-bred retrievers when an easier more positive and even "pretrained" in the womb option can be had for the gentlemanly sum of only $$$$....restricted breeding contract included.


Really? I’m ok at reading between the lines but she literally states it is still a part of the US retriever culture and then says she’s seen fearful dogs in venues and training. Maybe I read it wrong, wouldn’t be the first. Conclusions reached in her post should have some reasoning behind them and I for one don’t see it. 

Couldn’t agree more on your statement. Some of these British field kennels who make these ridiculous statements do so only to sell dogs that don’t have a single credential except they fit in a canoe.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Tobias said:


> I don't know - I think fear based training is still a part of the 'retriever culture' in the US - not every trainer and every dog....but..... It wasn't too many years ago when I saw someone using a bullwhip.... Heeling stick? Ecollar? ever seen or heard of these being used to create a 'fear based response'? I've seen dogs walk to the line at training groups and hunt tests 'in fear'.....
> 
> I just disagree that it is the only way US trainers train or need to train US bred FT dogs.


I guess I will have to unsee the things I have seen then


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Peter Balzer said:


> I don't think 'fear' has ever been a productive part of the US retriever training culture. We train our dogs with positive (successful retrieve or positive attention) and negative (correction, could be voice, ecollar, whistle, recall, etc). Dogs in fear shut down and perform poorly, why would someone who desires a high level of training and performance utilize fear?
> 
> Well trained dogs (in US culture), do not fear the collar, the handler, the whistle, the line, the water etc they seek it out. They jump in the truck, they race to the line (sometimes to our detriment), they sit crisply to whistle, they do not cower at the heeling stick, and jump in the water eagerly. What US culture do you speak of?
> 
> In getting these desired responses there will be mental and physical pressure applied. Do not confuse pressure with fear.


Well I guess I will have to unsee things I have seen then.... by so-called professional trainers, BTW.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

So you live in Alaska and for the record how many pros trainers (specifically FT) and dogs that regularly run FTs have you seen in competition and training? 

We have a handful of Alaskans train and run their dogs in MT and I haven’t seen fear in any of them. I haven’t been around for very long but of the 150 dogs I have judged, I have seen 2 that have showed some fear response and they both didn’t finish the trial. I have trained with and seen majority of the dogs regularly on the FT pros trucks in my area only one stands in the fear category out of 15+. 

As I stated before, maybe you should get out more before making a statement NOT an opinion on something as touchy as fear based training in the US field venue.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

jrrichar said:


> How many trial dogs and how many FT training groups have you seen that makes you think fear based training is still relevant in the game? FT dogs must deal with a tremendous amount of MENTAL pressure, which is why they need lots of bottom end. This does not equate with sensitivity. Having a fearful dog at the line wouldn’t bode well for results. Competition favors what works and fear doesn’t.
> 
> An opinion is grounded in experience. I don’t have too much but certainly have enough to know that fear based responses don’t tend to hold up very well. I encourage you to get out more before making said statements especially on a public forum.


Well said
Thanks


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Peter Balzer said:


> I don't think 'fear' has ever been a productive part of the US retriever training culture. We train our dogs with positive (successful retrieve or positive attention) and negative (correction, could be voice, ecollar, whistle, recall, etc). Dogs in fear shut down and perform poorly, why would someone who desires a high level of training and performance utilize fear?
> 
> Well trained dogs (in US culture), do not fear the collar, the handler, the whistle, the line, the water etc they seek it out. They jump in the truck, they race to the line (sometimes to our detriment), they sit crisply to whistle, they do not cower at the heeling stick, and jump in the water eagerly. What US culture do you speak of?
> 
> In getting these desired responses there will be mental and physical pressure applied. Do not confuse pressure with fear.


You apparently weren't around years ago


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

If we're talking generalizations, I have trained and ran a couple of I guess they would be called British type field labs. One was directly imported, another from one of those "high" marketed British American kennels; "where I can't find anything to really show they are British imports, with-in 3 generations" but that is what is marketed. I believe what others are alluding to is generally these type of dogs that I've seen have weaker "bottom" meaning they are sensitive and don't recover from pressure (not just E-collar) very well. They can be trained just like any other field lab, but techniques need to be adapted-balanced to ensure you keep momentum, drive, so they don't shut down. Will say they have drive, instinct, nose and are not stubborn, just soft. Now if I were to generalize another "British lab" the name given to show type dogs generally; I would characterize them as not lacking in bottom, Rather somewhat stubborn, oftentimes lazy until they learn work ethic; usually anything but soft. Most FT field labs "'merican", are of a softer-tractable type than previous generations. It's pretty much required for the type of testing they're doing these days; but they also tend to have a lot of bottom, so they can handle-bounce back quickly from pressure. This is not to say that pressure is necessary nor overly used when training them; just that they tend to recover quickly when it is applied. Of course you can find all these "kinds" in any particular type of lab or dog for that matter, they are just trends.

I believe fear based training is unfortunately utilized by many trainers in every avenue of dog training on every continent; but that has everything to do with the person doing the training and nothing to do with the type of dogs that are being trained.


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## Mallard Mugger (Jul 29, 2009)

I think we need a definition of "fear based training", at a minimum what the outward appearance of it is. This can go from a dog slinking with it's tail between it's legs, head down, and step behind to a dog that is afraid to mess up because it puts a lot of pressure (or perceived at least) on itself, to a dog that just has a hard time taking any type of correction. Looking at the trainer themselves, this could range from the cattle prod/bird shot to improper use of a lead - hell it could even be from with holding the scooby snack to long. Come up with a definition so we're all on the same page.


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> If we're talking generalizations, I have trained and ran a couple of I guess they would be called British type field labs. One was directly imported, another from one of those "high" marketed British American kennels; "where I can't find anything to really show they are British imports, with-in 3 generations" but that is what is marketed. I believe what others are alluding to is generally these type of dogs that I've seen have weaker "bottom" meaning they are sensitive and don't recover from pressure (not just E-collar) very well. They can be trained just like any other field lab, but techniques need to be adapted-balanced to ensure you keep momentum, drive, so they don't shut down. Will say they have drive, instinct, nose and are not stubborn, just soft. Now if I were to generalize another "British lab" the name given to show type dogs generally; I would characterize them as not lacking in bottom, Rather somewhat stubborn, oftentimes lazy until they learn work ethic; usually anything but soft. Most FT field labs "'merican", are of a softer-tractable type than previous generations. It's pretty much required for the type of testing they're doing these days; but they also tend to have a lot of bottom, so they can handle-bounce back quickly from pressure. This is not to say that pressure is necessary nor overly used when training them; just that they tend to recover quickly when it is applied. Of course you can find all these "kinds" in any particular type of lab or dog for that matter, they are just trends.
> 
> *I believe fear based training is unfortunately utilized by many trainers in every avenue of dog training on every continent; but that has everything to do with the person doing the training and nothing to do with the type of dogs that are being trained.*




Excellent synopsis of all points.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

ditto Hunt em up.... I am certain it isn't just an American thing... It is a 'human' thing... 

But when we talk about 'fear based' - I do think a definition needs to be addressed.

At what level of fear does a dog being FFed 'work'? Does being in slight discomfort trigger a slight 'fear' response?
At what level of fear does a dog being CCed (ala Lardy) 'work'? Is a dog lagging during the sit phase of CC fearful of getting a correction?
Does a dog going through FTP have 'fear' of the hot spot created by the 'nick'?
Does a dog going through cheating singles have a 'fear' of the bank?
Does a dog that has no goed on a blind or mark have a 'fear' of the field beyond him?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

First off, what is "fear" from a working dog's vantage? To Juli (Tobias), is "fear-based" the threat of non-e-collar users "scruffing" the living daylights of a dog that "ran in" on a flush or "pegged" a bird as it got up off the ground? Is "fear" a dog recoiling by hand-shyness? Is "fear" a dog caving from a "mere" verbal reproach?

See, the thing about the original "fear" post on a British dog that "works to please rather than out of fear" is it's a non-starter when applied to advanced retriever training - of which I am dubious that said poster has ever practiced or even witnessed. The e-collar, properly used and as foundational for American retriever or retrieving gundog training, takes the human element out of the "fear-based" equation. Whether it transfers any "fear factor" to the e-collar instead is all in how you, the trainer, choose to use it.

From way back when, Mr. Lardy was assessing the variable intensity e-collar as career salvation for many seemingly over-sensitive, "apprehensive" if not uninterested field trial dogs that would've been washed out otherwise but for their experiencing the e-collar. As it happens, I have an all-age British dog trained with the collar per Mr. Lardy's guidance as above and still au courant today. How attuned and upbeat she's shown herself to be throughout such training, "by-the-book" e-collar training, including all the "force" that comes with, has been a beautiful thing to behold for 10 years, and has made me a big believer in the capabilities of British dogs so trained. In fact, I was just about to ask Kirk Keene with fingers crossed if he had any leads on FTCh Shortthorn Tommy of Leadburn litters that might soon be kicking - for future consideration.

MG



Hunt'EmUp said:


> I believe fear based training is unfortunately utilized by many trainers in every avenue of dog training on every continent; but that has everything to do with the person doing the training and nothing to do with the type of dogs that are being trained.





Tobias said:


> ditto Hunt em up.... I am certain it isn't just an American thing... It is a 'human' thing...
> 
> But when we talk about 'fear based' - I do think a definition needs to be addressed.
> 
> ...


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

crackerd said:


> In fact, I was just about to ask Kirk Keene with fingers crossed if he had any leads on FTCh Shortthorn Tommy of Leadburn litters that might soon be kicking - for future consideration.
> MG


Sorry buddy, I think the ship has sailed on Tommy litters...unless someone has a few straws squirreled away! However there is a FT Pro close to me that has a Viceroy pup on his truck. This I find odd, as all the Viceroy progeny I've dealt with have been extremely quirky. We did produce a pup from my Indie's December 1015 litter that could mark with the best of them. That's a rarity for a UK-bred dog. Glad you're having success with your pup, and best of luck this spring.


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