# To Much Drive?



## mmoe (May 9, 2011)

When or can a dog have to much drive? Can to much drive be corrected through proper obedience training? Any suggestions would be apprecieated.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes it can be controlled. You have to be firm and consistent.
I recently had a dog like that. For the first time I used a pinch collar instead of a choke chain. I highly recommend you do this.
It drastically improved his ob and made steadying him so much easier. I think I posted a video on this.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

To much drive is usually another way of saying dog can't focus it gets so excited.


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

As an amateur, I'd say a dog could have too much drive for me as I'm not experienced enough to work with that type of dog. Think most pros feel a dog can not have enough drive. JMHO.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> To much drive is usually another way of saying dog can't focus it gets so excited.


Mike 
You get a cookie,,,,good boy


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Well said Mike. I can't think of the word but, maybe it's craziness, or maybe wildness. Maybe "undirected drive." It's often misconstrued as high drive.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

Labs R Us said:


> As an amateur, I'd say a dog could have too much drive for me as I'm not experienced enough to work with that type of dog. Think most pros feel a dog can not have enough drive. JMHO.


So what you are saying, as an amateur, you are better able to handle a dog with minimal to little drive? I certainly cannot, nor will not tolerate a dog with minimal drive. How do you "train" that drive into them? I can't put into a dog what was not put there by breeding. To me, and is my preference, the very high drive dog. It is so much easier for me, as was with with my Raven dog, to have a dog "break" and shake during FTP work. I never, ever had a go problem with her ever. Line manners is another story! but I can and have fixed that easily. Training the dog that would rather retrieve than anything else in life is not only a pleasure but easier, not to mention much more rewarding to watch work. The dog that kicks dirt in my face leaving the line for a blind after picking up a triple is my kind of dog. This isn't for everyone and that's why people buy dogs other than field trial labs! Too much horsepower for some.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

John Lash said:


> Well said Mike. I can't think of the word but, *maybe it's craziness, or maybe wildness. Maybe "undirected drive." It's often misconstrued as high drive.*




There is a difference between a dog that is high drive and teachable compared to one that is not...Steve S


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Backwater said:


> So what you are saying, as an amateur, you are better able to handle a dog with minimal to little drive? I certainly cannot, nor will not tolerate a dog with minimal drive. How do you "train" that drive into them? I can't put into a dog what was not put there by breeding. To me, and is my preference, the very high drive dog. It is so much easier for me, as was with with my Raven dog, to have a dog "break" and shake during FTP work. I never, ever had a go problem with her ever. Line manners is another story! but I can and have fixed that easily. Training the dog that would rather retrieve than anything else in life is not only a pleasure but easier, not to mention much more rewarding to watch work. The dog that kicks dirt in my face leaving the line for a blind after picking up a triple is my kind of dog. This isn't for everyone and that's why people buy dogs other than field trial labs! Too much horsepower for some.


No, what he's saying is that he has a crazy s.o.b that's driving him nuts as he tries to get enough control of the beast in order to train it.

This happens frequently, IMHO. Most often as a result of inexperienced people buying pups out of dogs that were a handful for Pros to train, though this type of dog could be the product of any type of breeding.

Lot's of impressive titles on the parents, but frequently not a good choice for someone with limited experience and resources to deal with. -Paul


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Yes, there is such thing as too much desire. I've witnessed one that was washed out because of it. QAA dog. Loved watching him run. Could only imagine him duck hunting.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

its only too much if the perceived drive exceeds the capabilities of the people or persons trying to harness and channel that drive into some workable form of an animal using conventional humane methods...urban dictionary describes such a dog as bat schiat crazy


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I have one now I got in a few weeks ago. Yelps in the water because her legs won't swim as fast as her brain wants her to get there. Yelps on land on the take off...and I mean take like a rocket. However she is smart and learns quickly. Working on OB I the yard now and FF soon. Fun to train for me. I have another young one of my own I'm looking forward to FF. If I have a bumper in my hand it better be high enough she can't reach it or she's gonna get it. I had one just like her a few yrs ago and had to hide the bumper behind my back just to get an ear pinch on her.


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## slick phillie (Jun 5, 2013)

I have one now that is 19 months old. She will kick mud in your face on marks or leaving on a blind. I would suggest obedience, obedience, and more obedience. Not only does my pup have lots of drive she has manners as well.


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## TonyLattuca (Jan 10, 2013)

labman63 said:


> I have one now I got in a few weeks ago. Yelps in the water because her legs won't swim as fast as her brain wants her to get there. Yelps on land on the take off...and I mean take like a rocket. However she is smart and learns quickly. Working on OB I the yard now and FF soon. Fun to train for me. I have another young one of my own I'm looking forward to FF. If I have a bumper in my hand it better be high enough she can't reach it or she's gonna get it. I had one just like her a few yrs ago and had to hide the bumper behind my back just to get an ear pinch on her.


You just described my pup to the tee. Yelps on water marks on the way out, off line if theirs a gunner, and tries robbing the bumper walking. I love this little guy and probably the easiest pup I've ever trained.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

mmoe said:


> When or can a dog have to much drive? Can to much drive be corrected through proper obedience training? Any suggestions would be apprecieated.


How old is the dog? What exactly is the problem?


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## Skinny (Jul 11, 2013)

To much drive hmmmm. If you start a puppy off right letting it know u have control from the first time u send it from a heel position and not letting it break if it does break and your using a 30 foot check cord he will learn not to break he will also learn that daddy has control over me and I don't get my reward if I don't obey. If you build on that and never let him get his way I believe u can control the drive


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Ahhh... getting to the crotch of the matter (as Archie Bunker would say.) We're touching on the true fear and loathing of the amateur. Serious amateurs (people who love the dog game but have lives and responsibilities) recognize the necessity of buying a dog/puppy bred to have "*go*" but worry about instilling the right amount of "*no*". "No" in the right amount at the right time. 

Since I am one of those amateurs I would like to ask the assembled experts if using the Hillman techniques with the very young fire-breather can produce the dog we want. I seriously don't want to screw my anticipated puppy up.


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## TonyLattuca (Jan 10, 2013)

1tulip said:


> Ahhh... getting to the crotch of the matter (as Archie Bunker would say.) We're touching on the true fear and loathing of the amateur. Serious amateurs (people who love the dog game but have lives and responsibilities) recognize the necessity of buying a dog/puppy bred to have "*go*" but worry about instilling the right amount of "*no*". "No" in the right amount at the right time.
> 
> Since I am one of those amateurs I would like to ask the assembled experts if using the Hillman techniques with the very young fire-breather can produce the dog we want. I seriously don't want to screw my anticipated puppy up.


 I took mine through it and it went well. It made formal training much easier because he was familiar with much of the training already.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

There is a lot more to a dog than prey drive. Temperament is comprised of all the drives and the dogs sensitivities to its environment. No 2 dogs are alike.
Focus and excitability are factors. High pack ,low pack factor in. High food low food factor in. And high prey low prey factor in and the sustainability of these drives during the process of goal satisfaction also factor in.

Give me high pack,,,high food and high prey and sustainabilities of those drives along with high focus and low excitability and sensitive any day any time.
High drive alone does not factor in because it is only a very small part of the equation. You need more info.

Pete


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Pete said:


> There is a lot more to a dog than prey drive. Temperament is comprised of all the drives and the dogs sensitivities to its environment. No 2 dogs are alike.
> Focus and excitability are factors. High pack ,low pack factor in. High food low food factor in. And high prey low prey factor in and the sustainability of these drives during the process of goal satisfaction also factor in.
> 
> Give me high pack,,,high food and high prey and sustainabilities of those drives *along with high focus and low excitability and sensitive any day any time.*
> ...


I believe this is a big factor in determining if the dog is trainable ( teachable) ...The excitability is where the problem usually arises...the higher the dog gets the harder it is for some to calm the dog down...Some trainers have the knack of taking this out of the dog and others don't have it...Steve S


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

I think alot of people confuse drive with arousal/hyperactivity


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I am dealing with a high drive dog right now that has broken on honor in our first two attempts at Senior passes - after doing the best work in both as told to me by both sets of judges. Right after they told me "I'm sorry." At least they were polite. 

My dog's problem is not his high drive; it is his idiot first-time handler/trainer. I only have one dog, and I (very foolishly, as it turns out) let him pick up way too many marks, leading him to conclude at this stage that he is supposed to retrieve everything that falls. He can hold it together at the line - because he assumes he is going to be allowed to go get the birds. It does not hold together like that on honor, when I tell him "no bird" and he thinks another dog is going to get "his" bird. 

That last part is the real problem: they are supposed to be MY birds that I may or may not allow him to retrieve. I really wish I would have understood it this way several months ago. We are looking at some long therapy, but the early returns are good. As a rank amateur currently dealing with this problem, here are some things I wish I would have done differently. 

1. Once you figure out your dog likes to chase stuff, you can be assured they have enough desire to do some work. From that point on with a truly high-drive dog you are working to get them to utilize that desire within in the framework of our rules. 

2. Your rules need to be very strict and very consistent with any dog, but even more so with a high-drive dog. When somebody tells you to keep your OB standard high because you'll only get a percentage of that at a hunt or dog event, they mean it. And they mean 20%, not 90%. Embrace it.

3. When you think your rules are strict enough with a high-drive dog, tighten them up (within reason and in balance, of course). You should know that a "little flinch" forward in training that you think is so cool because it shows you that dog wants the bird will be a 3-foot creep on the line at a hunt test. Or possibly a break on an honor after smoking the test. Possibly twice. No movement at all (other than the head following your foot around as you have trained them) is best. Don't let them have an inch that they can use to take a mile. 

4. Use their birdiness against them. If they are truly high-drive, and have the bottom to go with it, they can take a lot of physical pressure (collar and otherwise) AS LONG AS THEY END UP GETTING THE BIRD. The bird is everything to this dog, so the punishment for movement or acting crazy on the line (training or otherwise) is YOU WALKING OUT THERE AND PICKING UP THE BIRD. DO THIS EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY FAIL TO PLAY BY THE RULES IN ANY WAY.

5. You'll get a lot of advice that you really need to "tear that dog up" or "show that dog who the boss is." If you let it go as long as I have there will probably have to be at least a couple come to Jesus meetings to break up the expectations and get the dog to at least think about what is going on. But I think the beating method for this dog is not the long-term answer. Physics being what it is, pressure applied has to come out somewhere, and God forbid you really make this dog nervous around you. He doesn't need another excuse to get up and move. 

6. The better answer is going to be picking up the birds when the dog does not play by the rules - and sometimes when the dog plays by the rules. Remember, this dog above all needs to decide that the birds are yours, and the result of attempting to make them his is - you guessed it - denial of the bird. 

7. As a very wise dog person told me today, if the high-drive dog is not managed this way, then he ends up like a 14-year-old boy when a pretty girl walks into the room. He wants to just run over to her and, well, you know, but he has to learn that doing it that way will destroy any chance he may have of getting what he wants. Actually he said "your dog is like a 14-year-old boy", but I digress. 

I have to learn everything the hard way, apparently, so we are in for 3-6 months of rehab on this issue. And then we will manage it for the rest of his life. 

Onward and upward, as they say. This dog is teaching me a lot about dog training, among other things.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

So right now, as I said, I'm a student of Hillman's stuff. He is a big advocate of the balanced dog. He has a drill called Traffic Cop that makes a lot of sense. But what he said that made the light turn on for me is that the dog is released when his attention is riveted on the handler not the duck (or bumper). Though the DVD is intended for the owners of puppies, he says that it can be used to rehabilitate an adult dog. Takes about a LOT more to fix the problem, but the drill is supposed to be very helpful for adult dogs who aren't rock solid. I like it because it is simplicity itself. Haven't tried it yet so I shouldn't endorse it. But you watch day to day as he works a young dog on it. No fuss.  No high-tech stuff. Not a lot of set-ups and simulations. It's not about the retrieve, it's about the dog's focus and directing it onto the handler.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I have not seen the Hillman stuff yet, but I have heard lots of good things about it. You can bet I will be purchasing a copy before I take on another pup. And my next pup will of course be completely different and all my hard-won "knowledge" will be out the window. 

Headed outside to work on reeducation.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Too much? Nah,no such thing!  Seriously, I believe the Hillman system would have made a huge difference in my older dog, IF, and this is an important IF, I had had the experience and skills to carry it out properly and understand the basic philosophy. The program will not help you if are a beginner alone. You need a watchful eye over your shoulder. Having said that, I have raised my young dog with Hillman's and could not ask for better results. But as Steve said above, he is a completely different type of dog and might have been just fine without. But I believe it is the best chance you have with a wild one.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

As this is a "Christmas puppy", and we'll be limited due to winter conditions, the simplicity of Hillman's method (a handler, a dog, a bumper... for the most part) we need not waste a day before Spring rolls into summer and we can do transition on land and water.


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

it's doubtful that any amateur trainer can ever control a dog with true high-drive---most pros can't. The amount of discipline required to control that kind of dog is more than any trainer wants to administer--they're no fun to train. this is the kind of dog that draws a crown at a trial---they want to see how he will crash and burn today. Dogs with that kind of high drive come with a very low trainability level. which make them extremely difficult to train, even as a gun dog. 
Good luck
GG


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

IMO there isn't such thing as to much prey drive, its the animal's ability to consistently balance what they love or want to do with a trained response. As most know all dogs mature at different ages and I believe that most people mistake "high driven or Hot" with either slow maturing or an animal that truly doesn't know how to properly respond to the situation at its been put in. Energy that dogs show at the line tell us what avenues a trainer might need to take so that this animal can maintain focus and control which will then lead to success. To much prey drive isn't why a dog is dancing, barking or breaking at the line. Most of the time its a result of yesterdays training.


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## Bwanar (Aug 28, 2012)

Backwater said:


> So what you are saying, as an amateur, you are better able to handle a dog with minimal to little drive? I certainly cannot, nor will not tolerate a dog with minimal drive. How do you "train" that drive into them? I can't put into a dog what was not put there by breeding. To me, and is my preference, the very high drive dog. It is so much easier for me, as was with with my Raven dog, to have a dog "break" and shake during FTP work. I never, ever had a go problem with her ever. Line manners is another story! but I can and have fixed that easily. Training the dog that would rather retrieve than anything else in life is not only a pleasure but easier, not to mention much more rewarding to watch work. The dog that kicks dirt in my face leaving the line for a blind after picking up a triple is my kind of dog. This isn't for everyone and that's why people buy dogs other than field trial labs! Too much horsepower for some.


Well...I have one of those Really High Drive dogs. The kind that never gets enough and would retrieve until he drops over dead. He just gets so excited at the line (hunt test) that he can't sit but a moment at a time, looses his hearing (to my commands) and would/has broken on blinds, once he thinks he has even the slightest idea where I am sending him. Once the birds are on the ground, he is all business and it's hard to believe he can mark so well with all that movement. He stays just inside loose acceptable limits to be failed in a finished test, however his marks and blinds are so good (picking up all his marks clean and lining half the blinds), that the judges just can't normally fail him. I have tried to get this cleaned up, but he is not that way in training, even at mock tests.
I would sure like to know your method of easily fixing this, because I have tried a bunch. Granted he is still a young dog 22months and is getting better and better, but even know qualified for the Grand and fully capable (performance wise), he looseness at the line would have him out quick! Thanks in advance....there are a few others in our club with similar problems, but not to the same degree.
FYI his healing, sitting and recall are at CDX levels normally.


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## txcountryboy1986 (Nov 19, 2013)

Yes it can be controlled, I hunted with a cosmo daughter a few years ago and she was young and would whine in the blind, but the following year when i hunted with her the owner had taught her to be quiet. I personally love a high drive dog, but some dont and dont want to take the time with them so they say they have tooo much drive


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

LOL. So you think a dog can't have too much desire????


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

No, but I now certainly think they can have way yonder too much *uncontrolled* desire.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Can somebody explain to me what a high drive dog is????? 
I don't think that there is a dog with to much high drive. What I do think is that there's dogs that during training get short cutted. And when the dogs at the retrieving line it breaks or it whines the trainer or handler says O' he's a real high drive dog he just does that stuff. No you didn't train the dog to understand how the game was to be played. So the dog did what was natural and went and made the retrieve. The fault solely is on the trainer/handler. 
That's why we always talk about having high standards at all times.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Bwanar said:


> Well...I have one of those Really High Drive dogs. The kind that never gets enough and would retrieve until he drops over dead. He just gets so excited at the line (hunt test) that he can't sit but a moment at a time, looses his hearing (to my commands) and would/has broken on blinds, once he thinks he has even the slightest idea where I am sending him. Once the birds are on the ground, he is all business and it's hard to believe he can mark so well with all that movement. He stays just inside loose acceptable limits to be failed in a finished test, however his marks and blinds are so good (picking up all his marks clean and lining half the blinds), that the judges just can't normally fail him. I have tried to get this cleaned up, but he is not that way in training, even at mock tests.
> I would sure like to know your method of easily fixing this, because I have tried a bunch. Granted he is still a young dog 22months and is getting better and better, but even know qualified for the Grand and fully capable (performance wise), he looseness at the line would have him out quick! Thanks in advance....there are a few others in our club with similar problems, but not to the same degree.
> FYI his healing, sitting and recall are at CDX levels normally.


You answered your own question in your statment. Training!!!!!!!!!
Your most likely running to many HT's too close together with your dog, 22 month old HRCH is a young dog but nice job. So he's become a little test wise there for making him loose.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

GG said:


> it's doubtful that any amateur trainer can ever control a dog with true high-drive---most pros can't. The amount of discipline required to control that kind of dog is more than any trainer wants to administer--they're no fun to train. this is the kind of dog that draws a crown at a trial---they want to see how he will crash and burn today. Dogs with that kind of high drive come with a very low trainability level. which make them extremely difficult to train, even as a gun dog.
> Good luck
> GG


Sorry but that is simply not true. There are plenty of amateurs that can handle it and high drive has little to do with being trainable.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

GG said:


> it's doubtful that any amateur trainer can ever control a dog with true high-drive---most pros can't. The amount of discipline required to control that kind of dog is more than any trainer wants to administer--they're no fun to train. this is the kind of dog that draws a crown at a trial---they want to see how he will crash and burn today. Dogs with that kind of high drive come with a very low trainability level. which make them extremely difficult to train, even as a gun dog.
> Good luck
> GG


You are more than welcome to come watch my dog go, train with, or hunt anytime. Totally disagree with you. I can't train a dog with low drive and a I am far from an amateur.


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

Michael Ellis, the protection dog trainer, said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that really high drive dogs are easy to train because they want the reward (the bird, or the tug) so bad, they're willing to do almost anything to get it. He says the high drive dogs are easy to train with more positive methods because they are so singularly focused and highly motivated. He also said low drive dogs are easy, you give them away to a pet home and you're done. The medium drive dogs are the hard ones and require more force and correction. It makes sense but with that said, I do think there are dogs with so much drive they're hard to control or uncontrolable. 

Ellis explains it better than I do. I think it's around the 30 min mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe0-oqqoXvw


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

dpate said:


> Michael Ellis, the protection dog trainer, said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that really high drive dogs are easy to train because they want the reward (the bird, or the tug) so bad, they're willing to do almost anything to get it. He says the high drive dogs are easy to train with more positive methods because they are so singularly focused and highly motivated. He also said low drive dogs are easy, you give them away to a pet home and you're done. The medium drive dogs are the hard ones and require more force and correction. It makes sense but with that said, I do think there are dogs with so much drive they're hard to control or uncontrolable.
> 
> Ellis explains it better than I do. I think it's around the 30 min mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe0-oqqoXvw


Well stated!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

dpate said:


> Michael Ellis, the protection dog trainer, said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that really high drive dogs are easy to train because they want the reward (the bird, or the tug) so bad, they're willing to do almost anything to get it. He says the high drive dogs are easy to train with more positive methods because they are so singularly focused and highly motivated. He also said low drive dogs are easy, you give them away to a pet home and you're done. The medium drive dogs are the hard ones and require more force and correction. It makes sense but with that said, I do think there are dogs with so much drive they're hard to control or uncontrolable.
> 
> Ellis explains it better than I do. I think it's around the 30 min mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe0-oqqoXvw


Really excellent video. I'm going to check out more of his stuff. 

And basically his reward/non-reward discussion explaining why the "nutty" dog is easiest to train fits with Hillman's notion that the dog has to be so focused on the handler because the handler is the source of the reward (retrieve). That's what you see on Traffic Cop. The difference between what I hear Ellis saying vrs Hillman, is that Hillman seems to suggest that you can balance out that medium-drive dog by keeping them very high with "free retrieves" (this is for very young dogs remember... basically puppies.) And I think Hillman has tried to use average field-bred puppies in the videos he produces. Not slugs, not fire-breathers.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> And basically his reward/non-reward discussion explaining why the "nutty" dog is easiest to train fits with Hillman's notion that the dog has to be so focused on the handler because the handler is the source of the reward (retrieve). That's what you see on Traffic Cop. The difference between what I hear Ellis saying vrs Hillman, is that Hillman seems to suggest that you can balance out that medium-drive dog by keeping them very high with "free retrieves" (this is for very young dogs remember... basically puppies.) And I think Hillman has tried to use average field-bred puppies in the videos he produces. Not slugs, not fire-breathers.


What Michael said about training a high drive dog is NOT a blanket statement. He also mentioned that not giving the dog the ball because of a mistake made the dog more conducive to training, as if the dog was saying "what can I do to get the ball" show me show me show me. That dog is referred to as having high pack drive.
What do you think a dog with high prey drive --low pack drive -- hard as nails with the attitude of "I will go through you to get what I want and you don't own enough collars to shut me down",,,as a matter of fact beating me raises my defensive drive and that feels good too.
High drive is only a portion of what we are looking for ,,,trainability and many other attributes is what makes training easier and more pleasurable.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Pete said:


> What Michael said about training a high drive dog is NOT a blanket statement. He also mentioned that not giving the dog the ball because of a mistake made the dog more conducive to training, as if the dog was saying "what can I do to get the ball" show me show me show me. That dog is referred to as having high pack drive.
> What do you think a dog with high prey drive --low pack drive -- hard as nails with the attitude of "I will go through you to get what I want and you don't own enough collars to shut me down",,,as a matter of fact beating me raises my defensive drive and that feels good too.
> .


That's called the non-trainable dog. Not all dogs are trainable. Sorry to be the person that had to tell you that. 
And this type of dog is the reason why we buy pups from titled parents. Master Hunter, Hunter Retriever Champion, FC, AFC parents. Hedging the bet that we'll get a pup with trainability and good marking skills same as thier parents had.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

The sum of this whole discussion is this......you buy the pup with the breeding you prefer. This is why the few win trials after trials, each and every year while the many argue about high drive dogs too much. Ever wonder why some owners pass tests at a very high success rate while other pass very few. Yes, they may both have a Master Hunter dog but one dog does it in six entries while the other dog does it in 50 entries over three years. They are both MH dogs. IMHO you must train smart, train hard, train often, with the breeding that can handle it and the desire that always wants more. I call it attitude. The dog that after you have just run a long water triple with a 300 yard blind runs to the truck and the first thing she does is find a bumper somewhere you thought was put away and grabs it then comes to heel wanting more! I can train this type of dog and enjoy it.......plus ahhhhhh.....they are so much fun to watch go. This type of dog is why I am addicted to this game












.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEThat's called the non-trainable dog. Not all dogs are trainable. Sorry to be the person that had to tell you that. 
And this type of dog is the reason why we buy pups from titled parents. Master Hunter, Hunter Retriever Champion, FC, AFC parents. Hedging the bet that we'll get a pup with trainability and good marking skills same as thier parents had.][/QUOTE]

Actually you are incorrect. Almost all dogs are trainable to a degree.( those with dementia may not be ) All dogs have a degree or level in which they can be trained. I hate to be the one to tell you that.

Dogs like this often come from good blood lines. Thus the high drive factor. Someday people will learn its the whole dog that they are training not one aspect of it. genetics are a funny thing.
Pete


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Pete said:


> [QUOTEThat's called the non-trainable dog. Not all dogs are trainable. Sorry to be the person that had to tell you that.
> And this type of dog is the reason why we buy pups from titled parents. Master Hunter, Hunter Retriever Champion, FC, AFC parents. Hedging the bet that we'll get a pup with trainability and good marking skills same as thier parents had.]


Actually you are incorrect. Almost all dogs are trainable to a degree.( those with dementia may not be ) All dogs have a degree or level in which they can be trained. I hate to be the one to tell you that.

Dogs like this often come from good blood lines. Thus the high drive factor. Someday people will learn its the whole dog that they are training not one aspect of it. genetics are a funny thing.
Pete[/QUOTE]

I agree with part of what you are saying. Your statement almost all dogs are trainable, to some degree I believe any dog can be a junior dog. But the end goal on my truck is to make the dogs Master Hunters at a minimum FC if the dog has the talent and ability. Because if I'm going to put the time and effort into it, I want to be at the highest levels. Or it's a waste of my time and the dogs time. But I won't beat up a dog or be unfair to a less talented dog. Just for myself satisfaction. So the high drive low pack level, burn up the collar, fail to follow commands because he wants the bird so badly. This dog that you spoke of is un-trainable to get to the high levels of HT’s or FT’s. 

I also agree to takes more than high drive and that’s more to having a top level dog.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I would NOT be so quick to discount the input from "GG" & "Pete" as their level of experience and expertise most likely exceeds or far exceeds the decenters. Just a passing observation. Harry


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Not saying this is the case with the OP since I don't know him or the dog, but usually the ones I hear describe their dogs as having "too much drive" should substitute that for "not enough obedience". Because, let's face it, at training sessions when you hear people bragging about how their wild, barking, out of control dogs have so much drive, how many times do you ever hear them lament those same dogs do not have enough obedience training?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

And the answer is....There are definitely dogs with too much Drive (for me, for most people). Sure you can put a governor on a race-car and get it to slow down; but it is still a race car, with all that fire and speed locked up under the hood; requiring constant care and maintenance to prevent the wheels from falling off, and the car going up in a blaze. It takes a certain type of driver to be able to drive and appreciate a race-car everyday. I have trained with and driven 3 race-cars, 2 that were controllable; but you better watch those turns, 1 top of the line, that you better keep your eye on every second or you'd crash. Long & Short of it is; for me, I have no desire to own a Professional race-car; they require too much effort to maintain and drive; so I'll stick with and appreciate a Mustang, GTO, RoadRunner etc. They are still hot-rods but much easier maintenance, reliability and control


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

Everything is relative. I've certainly seen dogs with too much and too little drive for my tastes. I believe most people here would tend to prefer the higher end of the scale. However, a dog in the 90th percentile of drive is probably more enjoyable than one in the 99th percentile. Most of us don't have the skill or the will to handle the 99 percentile dog. 

When discussion of high drive dogs comes up I always remember one trial I got to watch. The one instance that is burned in my brain is a dog taking a solid minute of creeping, reheeling and finally breaking on a land blind in the Open. How it made it through the marks I have no idea.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I would bet a large sum of money that, even though that dog had obviously been trained to a high level to get to the Open, at the bottom of all that was a miscommunication about whose birds those really were, or the same problem I have allowed and that I am now having to painstakingly remediate.

I have also heard it said that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that you should get rid of. I think (within reason) there is a lot of truth in that statement.



brian breuer said:


> Everything is relative. I've certainly seen dogs with too much and too little drive for my tastes. I believe most people here would tend to prefer the higher end of the scale. However, a dog in the 90th percentile of drive is probably more enjoyable than one in the 99th percentile. Most of us don't have the skill or the will to handle the 99 percentile dog.
> 
> When discussion of high drive dogs comes up I always remember one trial I got to watch. The one instance that is burned in my brain is a dog taking a solid minute of creeping, reheeling and finally breaking on a land blind in the Open. How it made it through the marks I have no idea.


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

Pete said:


> What Michael said about training a high drive dog is NOT a blanket statement. He also mentioned that not giving the dog the ball because of a mistake made the dog more conducive to training, as if the dog was saying "what can I do to get the ball" show me show me show me. That dog is referred to as having high pack drive.
> What do you think a dog with high prey drive --low pack drive -- hard as nails with the attitude of "I will go through you to get what I want and you don't own enough collars to shut me down",,,as a matter of fact beating me raises my defensive drive and that feels good too.
> High drive is only a portion of what we are looking for ,,,trainability and many other attributes is what makes training easier and more pleasurable.


Very good explanation of the other attributes we're looking for. Thanks Pete.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

"I have also heard it said that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that you should get rid of. I think (within reason) there is a lot of truth in that statement.:

Rookie trainer could not have stated it better. to each their own, I will never ever be competitive in the Grand nor do I want a dog that could. The line manners required and needed would mean I would need another color dog other than black bred line of NFC dogs I currently own, or a breeding from a country across the pond. That's OK, because have no desire to run this, everyone feeds what they like.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

GG said:


> it's doubtful that any amateur trainer can ever control a dog with *true high-drive*---most pros can't.
> Good luck
> GG


the "true high drive" dog gg is talking about is something *most* have never had an experience with.

the dogs many of us call "fire breathers" are just nice dogs. when someone says, *"i want the highest drive dog i can get." *or, *"there is not a dog too high in drive for me!"* i see all the evidence i need to point and say to myself, "that person right there has never owned a "true high drive" dog!"

i like a hot dog myself. but if you have *ever said *about your dog, "boy i love training this dog!" you do not have the dog gg is talking about!


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

roseberry said:


> the "true high drive" dog gg is talking about is something *most* have never had an experience with.
> 
> the dogs many of us call "fire breathers" are just nice dogs. when someone says, *"i want the highest drive dog i can get." *or, *"there is not a dog too high in drive for me!"* i see all the evidence i need to point and say to myself, "that person right there has never owned a "true high drive" dog!"
> 
> i like a hot dog myself. but if you have *ever said *about your dog, "boy i love training this dog!" you do not have the dog gg is talking about!


The part I thought painted with too broad of a brush was, "...it's doubtful that *any amateur* trainer can ever control a dog with true high-drive..." That is simply not true.

Too many have no idea what they are getting in a breeding other than it is a popular Internet flavor or has some letters in front and/or behind it's name.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

roseberry said:


> the "true high drive" dog gg is talking about is something *most* have never had an experience with.
> 
> the dogs many of us call "fire breathers" are just nice dogs. when someone says, *"i want the highest drive dog i can get." *or, *"there is not a dog too high in drive for me!"* i see all the evidence i need to point and say to myself, "that person right there has never owned a "true high drive" dog!"
> 
> i like a hot dog myself. but if you have *ever said *about your dog, "boy i love training this dog!" you do not have the dog gg is talking about!


Amen Amen Amen Amen


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I agree with McCallie that there is such a thing as a dog with too much drive. One of my training partners had such a dog. He almost killed himself & the dog getting her through MH. She required multiple high level corrections to make a point & then would pout & simply go through the motions. The dog invented new & innovative ways to fail tests & was in general a PITA! Maybe she had train ability issues. I don't know. What I do know is I would have sold her much quicker than he did.

In most cases when someone says "my dog has too much drive", what they mean is "my obedience program is crappy". The same group of people always have the same "high drive" dogs. I am embarrassed to be included in this category but I am getting better.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Related story: Years ago a pro I liked (but who shall remain nameless) had a high-drive dog that no-matter-what would creep like crazy. So bad we began calling him "First and ten Earl". Then it got worse and we called him "All-American Earl" and then it got so bad we started calling him "All World Earl". So eventually someone suggested giving Earl some of his owner's valium. And then began the calculus of "OK, how much does Earl weigh?" "How much does Shirley weigh and how much does she take and how long does it take for her to zone out?" Ummm... Earl weighs about half of what Shirley does and she takes 5 mg an hour before she goes to bed. ('Course, Shirley also took her valium with two fingers of scotch.) OK, so we give Earl half a tablet about an hour before he's s'posed to run?" Well, depends, when did he eat last and what's his number and where are we in line up and how long does each dog take to run the test? How many rebirds before Earl runs? 

I don't think we ever did drug Earl (someone's common sense and conscience kicked in) and needless to say Earl never titled. But I still laugh at the recollection of a bunch of us trying to do canine pharmacokinetics at a field trial.

Take home messages: 1. cheaters never win and 2. if the dog is that unsteady, probably should get another dog. 

I think Earl was out of Itchin' to Go.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

fishduck said:


> In most cases when someone says "my dog has too much drive", what they mean is "my obedience program is crappy". The same group of people always have the same "high drive" dogs. I am embarrassed to be included in this category but I am getting better.


I have heard of dogs being washed out because they were so intense about retrieving, they could never be taught to do blinds with diversions and poison birds. So, I think it is possible to have a dog with too much drive, despite a good OB program.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

When they sh&$ their box at the sound of shot fliers is usually a good indication they have too much prey drive...true story. "GG" post was right on....


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

fishduck said:


> In most cases when someone says "my dog has too much drive", what they mean is "my obedience program is crappy". The same group of people always have the same "high drive" dogs. I am embarrassed to be included in this category but I am getting better.


Jimmy and I are depending on you so he won't be so high-drive anymore (or my OB program won't be as crappy)! Oh well, once burnt, lesson learnt according to Barney Fife.


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

I personally believe there are many retriever trainers who get caught up fostering and encouraging drive in pups that already have it instead of working on obedience with a sound, incremental program (that lasts months not days.) Too many use the "whip 'em or burn 'em if they don't (heel, sit, come, etc.)" even if the pups haven't really been thoroughly taught these things to try to rush through the "boring" task of obedience. Obedience becomes an afterthought, a "when I have time for it" part of training. Drive often gets emphasized out of pride so strong drive becomes stronger drive becomes uncontrollable or unruly drive. Watching dogs run full speed and hammer marks is fun. It gives us those "Wow! Did you see my dog do that?" moments. Obedience, not so much.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Excellent thread. Enjoyed reading the posts.
Nothing to add on my part.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

J. Walker said:


> I personally believe there are many retriever trainers who get caught up fostering and encouraging drive in pups that already have it instead of working on obedience with a sound, incremental program (that lasts months not days.) Too many use the "whip 'em or burn 'em if they don't (heel, sit, come, etc.)" even if the pups haven't really been thoroughly taught these things to try to rush through the "boring" task of obedience. Obedience becomes an afterthought, a "when I have time for it" part of training. Drive often gets emphasized out of pride so strong drive becomes stronger drive becomes uncontrollable or unruly drive. Watching dogs run full speed and hammer marks is fun. It gives us those "Wow! Did you see my dog do that?" moments. Obedience, not so much.


All this being true, I have seen them break a honor and run through a full collar on Constance with there head cranked. There only been two in my life time ( I know that it has not been as long as others) that where true fire breathers and both did not make it.

If you truly have one you will know it and it's not that fun.

Keith


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

HarryWilliams said:


> I would NOT be so quick to discount the input from "GG" & "Pete" as their level of experience and expertise most likely exceeds or far exceeds the decenters. Just a passing observation. Harry


thank you Harry, again always the voice of good reason.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Good training + drive = nice dog. 
Bad training + drive = unbalanced /dangerous.

Saying that a dog cant make the grade because they have to much drive is a horrible excuse. Put that dog with someone that can balance control and desire and see what happens. All dogs cant be trained the same, adjust for each if need be. Your better marking stylish dogs are going to have a lot of drive. Retrieves should be rewards, hard to train one that doesn't like the rewards.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

One more to add:

GREAT training + too much drive= washout


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Buzz said:


> I have heard of dogs being washed out because they were so intense about retrieving, they could never be taught to do blinds with diversions and poison birds. So, I think it is possible to have a dog with too much drive, despite a good OB program.


Actually I completely agree. It may have been poorly written but that was the gist of the first non quoted paragraph. My point was more that some people use high drive as an excuse for lack of obedience. You will see this individual with 3 dogs from different breedings & all have the same line manner issues. Sure a very few dogs have too much drive. A high % of dogs labeled as such are simply a result of poor handling skills or incomplete training.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

WBF said:


> Good training + drive = nice dog.
> Bad training + drive = unbalanced /dangerous.
> 
> Saying that a dog cant make the grade because they have to much drive is a horrible excuse. Put that dog with someone that can balance control and desire and see what happens. All dogs cant be trained the same, adjust for each if need be. Your better marking stylish dogs are going to have a lot of drive. Retrieves should be rewards, hard to train one that doesn't like the rewards.


When I read something like this, just tells me they have not seen enough dogs yet . TIME WILL TELL.

Keith


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

truthseeker said:


> When I read something like this, just tells me they have not seen enough dogs yet . TIME WILL TELL.
> 
> Keith


When I read this, it tells me they probably washout a lot of dogs that love to pickup birds too much.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

*Noobs exposed!*

Several posters whose credentials I know and respect have chimed in on this thread. They all seem to be of similar mind. 

Then there are several posters who have commented, who I don't know, but who have expressed similar views to them. I will give their comments in other threads a lot more weight now.

Peanuty regards,


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

You may be taking it a little further than I intended. While ideally I would like to run my dog like a race car - right on the edge of out-of-control - you do want to stay out of the wall the vast majority of the time. In my situation, I pretty well know at this point that the wall is in our future when we start a hunt test, so we are going back to the design shop to hopefully get him to decide to maintain himself on the right side of the control equation. 

Ironically, the program I am on is basically using his intense desire for birds against him. To get what he wants, he has to give me what I want first. 



Backwater said:


> "I have also heard it said that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that you should get rid of. I think (within reason) there is a lot of truth in that statement.:
> 
> Rookie trainer could not have stated it better. to each their own, I will never ever be competitive in the Grand nor do I want a dog that could. The line manners required and needed would mean I would need another color dog other than black bred line of NFC dogs I currently own, or a breeding from a country across the pond. That's OK, because have no desire to run this, everyone feeds what they like.


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

A dog can have a lot of desire/go and a great trainer but may be lacking THINK/BRAINS which cuts his career short. Mike Tyson is a good example.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

See there is a difference, in statement, that no amateur can train a "true high-drive" dog versus a dog that is simply no fun, what you don't want in a competitive dog. a pure nutcase or washout (which is subjective). I've already wasted enough cycles...enjoy.


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> You may be taking it a little further than I intended. While ideally I would like to run my dog like a race car - right on the edge of out-of-control - you do want to stay out of the wall the vast majority of the time. In my situation, I pretty well know at this point that the wall is in our future when we start a hunt test, so we are going back to the design shop to hopefully get him to decide to maintain himself on the right side of the control equation.
> 
> Ironically, the program I am on is basically using his intense desire for birds against him. To get what he wants, he has to give me what I want first.


We have one that runs like a race car and right on the edge of out of control. Has taken a lot of work and counsel (by /Paul) to help us try to keep him grounded. He'll be running at the Master level next year IF we can keep him healthy. The race car is fun to watch until it hits the wall. We've experienced that to the tune of a concussion and a major shoulder injury. All the layoff time for healing and rehab means big gaps in training. We are amateurs and he is a lot of dog. Ironically, he's a wonderful house dog and amazing hunter and we can't imagine life without the little bugger.

Enjoy the ride (and it's one hell of a ride) :razz:


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

It is an interesting journey. I really wish mine could talk so he could give me some sort of audible warning. Like "Hey pops, watch this!!!"



T-bone said:


> We have one that runs like a race car and right on the edge of out of control. Has taken a lot of work and counsel (by /Paul) to help us try to keep him grounded. He'll be running at the Master level next year IF we can keep him healthy. The race car is fun to watch until it hits the wall. We've experienced that to the tune of a concussion and a major shoulder injury. All the layoff time for healing and rehab means big gaps in training. We are amateurs and he is a lot of dog. Ironically, he's a wonderful house dog and amazing hunter and we can't imagine life without the little bugger.
> 
> Enjoy the ride (and it's one hell of a ride) :razz:


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Note: There are problems with this definition in both the behavioral and genetics communities because we cannot measure or even accurately define one of the key parts of the operational definition: “instinctual”/“instinctive”. Also, if dogs can be considered “low drive” the response cannot be exaggerated, and the ability to enhance or diminish a response is a key part of the operational definition of drive. Finally, while you may easily compare 2 dogs in front of you where one has relatively “higher drive” than the other, this type of relativistic comparison cannot be quantitatively tested and validated within or between observers, and does not provide a phenotype that can be used in genetic analyses, or behavioral tests to improve technique.

Synonyms: n/a 
Scientific Usage: There are problems with this definition in both the behavioral and genetics communities, see Notes. 
Operational Usage: Drive is the propensity of a dog to exhibit a particular pattern of behaviors when faced with particular stimuli. Drives are triggered by these particular stimuli and expressed in a typical and predictable way that is associated with the particular stimulus. Drives can be enhanced or diminished through experience (e.g., training, environment, et cetera), but they cannot be created or eliminated. Traditionally defined in the working dog literature as an exaggerated, instinctual response to certain stimuli and situations. Drive is most narrowly and clearly defined as a willingness, vigor, or enthusiasm to engage in certain behavior, contexts, or situations. 
Relevant Discipline: Explosive, General Training, Guide Dogs, Narcotic, Other Detection Dogs, Search & Recovery, Search & Rescue, Service Dog, Tracking/Trailing 
Citation: http://www.swgdog.org/ 

Example: n/a


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Generally, in my experience, when you see someone crowing about their dog being a firebreather, it usually means a newbie who's impressed by their dog's desire w/o a clue how the rein them in. 

Line work is critical. Doesn't matter what venue you're running.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

So there lies the problem....Is high drive subjective to the retriever world? You can harness the drive to your advantage if you know what to do. On the other hand, it can impede your progress, if you don't know what to do.... Is it best to seek those you know what to do? Would it be fair in your best interest to....

Edit to post: What is the end result or goal of the future handler....Hopefully said handier will stay with dog and be patient and do whatever it takes to have dog excel or maybe need help for that as well. End result is....a journey together....


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> So there lies the problem...*.Is high drive subjective to the retriever world?* You can harness the drive to your advantage if you know what to do. On the other hand, it can impede your progress, if you don't know what to do.... Is it best to seek those you know what to do? Would it be fair in your best interest to....


of course it is.....have you ever heard someone describe their dog as " my dog is a piggish slug who walks to blinds like he does to marks "


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

BonMallari said:


> of course it is.....have you ever heard someone describe their dog as " my dog is a piggish slug who walks to blinds like he does to marks "


I really believe you could come up with a better answer than that.....


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> I really believe you could come up with a better answer than that.....


I did but I deleted it because it involved friends dogs and I dont do that to friends,maybe tell you the story in person now that I know you live in Idaho


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

BonMallari said:


> I did but I deleted it because it involved friends dogs and I dont do that to friends,maybe tell you the story in person now that I know you live in Idaho


Sounds fair and I can understand. I have a smart phone so give me a shout on a PM and I will give ya my number or vice versa....


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

BJGatley said:


> So there lies the problem....Is high drive subjective to the retriever world? You can harness the drive to your advantage if you know what to do. On the other hand, it can impede your progress, if you don't know what to do.... Is it best to seek those you know what to do? Would it be fair in your best interest to....
> 
> Edit to post: What is the end result or goal of the future handler....Hopefully said handier will stay with dog and be patient and do whatever it takes to have dog excel or maybe need help for that as well. End result is....a journey together....


I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, but if you are saying it's all about the journey and to stick with what you have no matter what. doesn't that depend on what your goal really is? Some times, it better to put the dog on the couch and start again.

Keith


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

truthseeker said:


> I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, but if you are saying it's all about the journey and to stick with what you have no matter what. doesn't that depend on what your goal really is? Some times, it better to put the dog on the couch and start again.
> 
> Keith


You are reading too much in what I said. Think about the trainer to be...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

BonMallari said:


> BJ check your PM box


Will do...I have homework tonight...Photoshop tonight to caught up. Will call tomorrow...I promise. 

Benny who thought college was easy to get into again...Not at my age.....


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

KNorman said:


> Generally, in my experience, when you see someone crowing about their dog being a firebreather, it usually means a newbie who's impressed by their dog's desire w/o a clue how the rein them in.
> 
> Line work is critical. Doesn't matter what venue you're running.


So Very true


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

So where is the OP ?
I am still wondering how old is the dog and what exactly is the problem?


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Backwater said:


> "I have also heard it said that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that you should get rid of. I think (within reason) there is a lot of truth in that statement.:
> 
> Rookie trainer could not have stated it better. to each their own, I will never ever be competitive in the Grand nor do I want a dog that could. The line manners required and needed would mean I would need another color dog other than black bred line of NFC dogs I currently own, or a breeding from a country across the pond. That's OK, because have no desire to run this, everyone feeds what they like.


So you are a professional dog trainer ( "far from an amateur ") and you could never get a well bred, black dog through the Grand?


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

KNorman said:


> Generally, in my experience, when you see someone crowing about their dog being a firebreather, it usually means a newbie who's impressed by their dog's desire w/o a clue how the rein them in.
> 
> Line work is critical. Doesn't matter what venue you're running.


Very true, but only in hindsight. Let me explain. 

First, having never trained a retriever or even picked out a puppy, the new trainer is worried about one thing - is my dog birdy enough to retrieve? When you find out he is, and maybe even that he really likes it, it is such a relief that you just let some things go that you shouldn't. This is the new trainer's only dog, so even if the trainer takes advice and doesn't throw very many marks, I doubt they have the foresight not to let the pup pick up all the marks. I didn't. 

On the flip side, once you discover your dog is birdy enough (and then some), you probably begin to hear/learn that it is possible to make mistakes with some dogs (whether with the collar or physical corrections) that alter them forever. The old (and mostly true) "I can take it out but I can't put it (back) in." Now the new trainer is on notice that you can "ruin your dog" but has no idea really how to read a dog to decide that it has a lot of drive and a lot of bottom such that short of repeated random beatings with a 1 inch dowel you are not going to ruin the dog. And hopefully nobody is going to be doing that anyway. 

So, what you end up with, at least in my case, is a fairly talented dog with GREAT momentum, but one that I have allowed to think that all birds are his. This is manageable at the line, probably because he has figured out that if he keeps it together there he will get the birds, but it all blows up in the honor situation. 

Luckily I have some good training partners, most notably fishduck, who can read dogs and who figured out the problem was about 1% the dog and about 99% me. He put us on a training regimen to start to change the mindset by using the dog's birdiness against him. If he wants the bird we have to be steady for extended periods, and sometimes we don't get the bird even if we are steady. We are consistently using a mat to define steady. Any movement from flinching on up is cause for an immediate correction and the denial of the retrieve. 

After a solid week, we had a training day today, and he was much, much better on both marks and honors. We are still in the early stages of this reprogramming, and I was using the collar and a visible heeling stick today, but for the first time IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE he was completely still as two marks went down. We are still creating a habit, and we have a long way to go, but I can see progress being made. We will eventually remove the collar, and the heeling stick, and we will add ducks, duck calls, shots, and other distractions and eventually have a nice dog to hunt with and play the dog games with. 

I wish I would have done this much earlier, but at least I finally got the advice I needed. I guess it is true that when the student is ready (and has lost the entry fee for two tests because the dog breaks on honor) the teacher will appear. Thanks fishduck!!!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

To me, "Too much drive" generally translates to "Not enough human to handle it".

And what Pete said.


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

KNorman said:


> Generally, in my experience, when you see someone crowing about their dog being a firebreather, it usually means a newbie who's impressed by their dog's desire w/o a clue how the rein them in.
> 
> Line work is critical. Doesn't matter what venue you're running.


I suppose you'd consider me a newbie and therefore think I'm crowing about our firebreather. He is a firebreather but he's also under control (most of the time). This may sound like crowing also but he's very well bred and excels at what they aimed for with that litter. Our problem is that he's under control at the line but goes like a bat out of hell in the field with no regard to anything in his path. That issue is a hard one to manage no matter who you are or what your skill level may be.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

T-bone said:


> Our problem is that he's under control at the line but goes like a bat out of hell in the field with no regard to anything in his path. That issue is a hard one to manage no matter who you are or what your skill level may be.


I know this feeling. It's "exciting" when you ALWAYS have to have a breath drawn for a whistle when you are running a blind. And he is still too fast for you sometimes.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

No problem Steve. Stick with it! I made all the same mistakes & paid the same price. Experience is always the best teacher.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

KNorman said:


> Generally, in my experience, when you see someone crowing about their dog being a firebreather, it usually means a newbie who's impressed by their dog's desire w/o a clue how the rein them in.


Love this quote; Just my experience but; Experienced trainers with true fire-breathers (the most well-known Pro to a knowledgeable Amateur); Cuss them way more than they crow . You hear a bunch of colorful & inventive language going to and from the line with particular dogs .

True Fire-breathers; (those which dance the line btw barely in control and un-trainable/washouted) are appreciated by the watchers way more than they are by the handler-trainer, I'd bet most would take a bit more control and a tad less drive; and the term "fire-breather" is more of a curse than praise.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

LOL "washouted" 

Huntemup's got it right though much more fun to watch


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

After reading all these posts, I am not sure what the term "drive" means. Does a dog that runs fast but has no clue where it is going have drive. Does a dog that runs fast but is undiciplined as to where it is supposed to go have "drive"? Does a dog that goes out at medium speed to the AOF and makes a gallant effort to dig out a bird in super hard cover, have "drive"?

I have an old girl lying at my feet who once ran out and snatched a duck out of the mouth of my friend's dog, leaving him standing there without a clue what happened. She was fast as lightening but did she have "drive"? 

Not trying to start another pissing contest but I do think the term is hard to define.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I can see why your are having problems? That's because people see it in different ways. Some have different categories of drive, pray drive, defense drive, food drive, pack drive and so on.

I myself try to put in the most simplest term.(THE DESIRE TO GET WHAT THEY WANT) If Their drive overwhelms their working attitude ( willingness to please) I would say they where a fire breather. These dogs live in the moment and are a hand full to train to say the least.

Keith


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

truthseeker said:


> I can see why your are having problems? That's because people see it in different ways. Some have different categories of drive, pray drive, defense drive, food drive, pack drive and so on.
> 
> I myself try to put in the most simplest term.(THE DESIRE TO GET WHAT THEY WANT) If Their drive overwhelms their working attitude ( willingness to please) I would say they where a fire breather. These dogs live in the moment and are a hand full to train to say the least.
> 
> Keith


Boy that makes a lot of sense. Drive and no decipline and you have a fire breather. Drive and decipline and we have a dog we all desire.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

truthseeker said:


> I can see why your are having problems? That's because people see it in different ways. Some have different categories of drive, pray drive, defense drive, food drive, pack drive and so on.
> 
> I myself try to put in the most simplest term.(THE DESIRE TO GET WHAT THEY WANT) If Their drive overwhelms their working attitude ( willingness to please) I would say they where a fire breather. These dogs live in the moment and are a hand full to train to say the least.
> 
> Keith


Boy that makes a lot of sense. Drive and no decipline and you have a fire breather. Drive and decipline and we have a dog we all desire.


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

Nothing to add, but I couldn't resist being the 100th post to this interesting thread.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

TexGold said:


> Nothing to add, but I couldn't resist being the 100th post to this interesting thread.


That made me laugh


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

TexGold said:


> Nothing to add, but I couldn't resist being the 100th post to this interesting thread.


I wonder what wold happen if I deleted one of my duplicate posts?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> To me, "Too much drive" generally translates to "Not enough human to handle it".
> 
> And what Pete said.


I agree with Pete, of course and I think there are two typical situations in retrieverdom where too much desire is a problem.

First is the person who wants it and can't handle it (too little human).

Second I think is the person who is capable but doesn't really want it and doesn't enjoy that kind of dog. 

I think it's all related to a person's history with dogs and their goals/objectives. 

Personally I want the highest degree of desire I can lay my hands on, but I need it combined with good intelligence and pack drive, then tempered with a reasonable degree of sensitivity. 

I have one right now that has no idea how to slow down on the first mark of the day and will blow through on the right line and hunt deep pretty much every time. Once that's out of her system, subsequent marks are much better. She doesn't have much experience yet but she has good pack drive and is sensitive but not a pouter. She'll get it down over time and when she does she will turn in a very exciting performance. It's just going to take a little while longer than it might otherwise and I would imagine she will occasionally blow up in a test. That's fine with me as it's my idea of what a retriever should be...

I'm sure it's not for everyone.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> I agree with Pete, of course and I think there are two typical situations in retrieverdom where too much desire is a problem.
> 
> First is the person who wants it and can't handle it (too little human).
> 
> ...


This is probably showing my ignorance. I think I have some idea of what the "pack instinct" is but not sure what you mean by "pack drive", let alone how to recognize it. Could you explain?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEThis is probably showing my ignorance. I think I have some idea of what the "pack instinct" is but not sure what you mean by "pack drive", let alone how to recognize it. Could you explain?][/QUOTE]
I will do this in multiple posts because of posts not going through based on time.
Within a drive there are different manifestations of behaviors. In prey drive you have behavior that causes a dog to reach his goal and satisfy it. Some of the behavior of prey drive are stalking,,freezing (pointing),, herding,,,,giving eye,,, chasing,,,,,shaking prey to dispatch,, quartering,,,, searching,,,, and probably others I have missed. You can see that man has harnessed the desired traits and instilled them in the different breeds.
This is an illustration that will help you understand pack drive ,,,but i'm out of time now ,more later


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> I agree with Pete, of course and I think there are two typical situations in retrieverdom where too much desire is a problem.
> 
> First is the person who wants it and can't handle it (too little human).
> 
> ...


Darrin, This is going off on a tangent, I really would like to know how you are handling this type of dog.

I have had a few, Their drive was high and their lines where vary good, but they would over run their retrieves and hunt deep. I also know that their working attitude was good, so I came to the conclusion that pressure was not need. I would give them a loud HAY, HAY as they ran past the mark. I did this every time for about 2 months. I seem to work well for me. Just wondering how you handled it.

Thanks Keith


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Pete said:


> [QUOTEThis is probably showing my ignorance. I think I have some idea of what the "pack instinct" is but not sure what you mean by "pack drive", let alone how to recognize it. Could you explain?]


I will do this in multiple posts because of posts not going through based on time.
Within a drive there are different manifestations of behaviors. In prey drive you have behavior that causes a dog to reach his goal and satisfy it. Some of the behavior of prey drive are stalking,,freezing (pointing),, herding,,,,giving eye,,, chasing,,,,,shaking prey to dispatch,, quartering,,,, searching,,,, and probably others I have missed. You can see that man has harnessed the desired traits and instilled them in the different breeds.
This is an illustration that will help you understand pack drive ,,,but i'm out of time now ,more later[/QUOTE]

I never would have thought of herding as prey drive. Interesting and it does make sense. I look forward to your description of pack drive, what it is and how it manifests itself and then how this quality is desirable in a retriever.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Judy Rasmuson was part of a very interesting discussion/interview with Dennis Voigt (I believe it was him off the top of my head) in GRCA magazine a year ago. She noted that successful field trial dogs possessed just the right combination of two traits, intense drive coupled with compliance. She further noted this combination was way more common with Labs than Goldens.

Goldens with intense drive are not common, but can be found with the proper breeding, high drive Goldens that are also compliant are very rare. These dogs can be spectacular markers, very fast and flashy uncanny bird finding machines. But that trait leads them to be super confident and very hard to handle, they think they know better than you, just point them in the right direction, say back and let them do their thing. They seem to resent being stopped in route, and are reluctant, if not totally defiant handling dogs. I know, I have had a couple of these along with a few medium drive more compliant dogs. I'll still take the high drive dog and keep my fingers crossed that he is in a mind to behave all three days of a trial.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

caryalsobrook said:


> I never would have thought of herding as prey drive. Interesting and it does make sense. I look forward to your description of pack drive, what it is and how it manifests itself and then how this quality is desirable in a retriever.



I understand "pack instinct" to be the dog's acceptance of the group social organization. The dog knows the human is in charge, and if he has good pack instinct he will want to please his human and be trainable/bidable. I hope Pete will clarify.

Edit: instead of "want to please his human" I should have written "agree to cooperate with is human"


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

mitty said:


> I understand "pack instinct" to be the dog's acceptance of the group social organization. The dog knows the human is in charge, and if he has good pack instinct he will want to please his human and be trainable/bidable. I hope Pete will clarify.
> 
> Edit: instead of "want to please his human" I should have written "agree to cooperate with is human"


Now you have made me think again. I have always thought the "want to please his human" as bonding. I never have distinguished that from "agree to cooperate", not the same but in my opinion symbionic. I wonder if one could say that a dog "wants to please" but not "agree to cooperate". Seems to me that this could not be the case. I can see how a dog could "agree to cooperate" but not necessarily "want to please".


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I think the dog can want to please by getting the bird but not want to cooperate by doing it within the rules. Like, say, breaking, where the dog wants to please by getting the bird but doesn't want to wait to be released to get it. Maybe prey drive>pack drive at that instant? This could also be illustrated by a blowing off of a whistle sit when the dog is close to the blind or not taking a cast away from where the dog thinks it is and thus wants to go.

Pete/Darrin, feel free to step in here and educate me.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> Darrin, This is going off on a tangent, I really would like to know how you are handling this type of dog.
> 
> I have had a few, Their drive was high and their lines where vary good, but they would over run their retrieves and hunt deep. I also know that their working attitude was good, so I came to the conclusion that pressure was not need. I would give them a loud HAY, HAY as they ran past the mark. I did this every time for about 2 months. I seem to work well for me. Just wondering how you handled it.
> 
> Thanks Keith


I didn't actually solve it with her Keith. I use her for obedience demos and hunting. If she over runs a bird on a hunt I just handle her back and get it done. I ran out of time for training groups as my obedience business has taken off, so I haven't been working on any hunt test/field trial marking with her. She's awesome as a demo dog in obedience and that's where I really need her to be. Hunting/hunting tests are really a sideline for now.

If I were to try and solve it, I would try several things.

1. White bumpers on short grass to teach "bird by gun" (she tumbles ass over head on these trying to stop).
2. Salting the area with birds and stomping down a lot of grass in the area as well as running her last to teach her to recognize the small of birds and or foot scent/disturbance
3. Gunner help (although I would rather she self discover where the bird is).
4. I think the 'dirt clog drill" is designed to help with this but have never used it.
5. I might use terrain on a limited basis to create a wall behind the fall, in order to prevent her from running long.
6. Just let the dog mature over time and get more experience.

It's all very passive teaching so it would take a while to cement.

I have always been taught that pressure in that proximity to the gun is a terrible idea and I can see why, so I wouldn't choose that method.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RookieTrainer said:


> I think the dog can want to please by getting the bird but not want to cooperate by doing it within the rules. Like, say, breaking, where the dog wants to please by getting the bird but doesn't want to wait to be released to get it. Maybe prey drive>pack drive at that instant? This could also be illustrated by a blowing off of a whistle sit when the dog is close to the blind or not taking a cast away from where the dog thinks it is and thus wants to go.
> 
> Pete/Darrin, feel free to step in here and educate me.


who knows that they're thinking in those situations Steve? I sure can't read their minds but... if you believe everything you read and or hear, the dog is satisfying it's own prey drive by disobeying the handler's wish in those cases. It may be an issue of willful disobedience or not knowing how to behave properly in their highest state of excitement. One has to make an assumption as to which motivation causes the problem in order to stop it. Or, just do what you think is fair and hope for the best. That's how most people operate IMHO, despite what they claim to know about a dog's motivation. I'm of the opinion personally that when anyone says "he's doing X because in his head he's thinking Y", they must me making an assumption, since the dog certainly can't express it's thoughts in a manner we can truly understand (language). So we do our best to address issues like this based on what we think the dog knows and what we think is fair and justified. Over many many dogs and many many years an experienced trainer (generally a pro) comes to understand the common causes, effects and solutions and how to avoid / apply them, however, I have seen trainers with upwards of 50 FC's trained in their career come up with new, innovative ways to solve problems. This says to me that there is never a black and white answer, even though maybe 9 out of 10 dogs fit a certain mold.

Breaking is the easiest example of the two. I have a dog I taught to sit automatically when a bird is thrown. She's never, in her life been allowed a retrieve without sitting first, or being given a release word at the time of the throw. Literally, I mean if the dog is standing next to me and I throw a bumper she will sit, rather than leave, unless I say her name. At 18 months and several thousand successful reps, the dog knows what she's supposed to do. She's demonstrated that understanding hundreds and hundreds of times. Now... I don't know if, when she's wound up she breaks because she's thinking "screw him" or, she's just more excited than ever and forgot to think. In both case though, because she knows very very well what the appropriate behavior is, serious punishment of the incorrect behavior can be employed without destroying her attitude. This allows me to deal with very few infractions in a meaningful way, rather than constantly nagging the dog with a heeling stick or the e-collar. Having said all that... I have NO IDEA WHAT SHE'S REALLY THINKING. I just know I'm being fair even though the correction is very meaningful.

I hope that makes some sense. In essence I'm saying... we can only assume what their thinking and react in as faithful a manner as possible to correct the behavior.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

RookieTrainer said:


> I think the dog can want to please by getting the bird but not want to cooperate by doing it within the rules. Like, say, breaking, where the dog wants to please by getting the bird but doesn't want to wait to be released to get it. Maybe prey drive>pack drive at that instant? This could also be illustrated by a blowing off of a whistle sit when the dog is close to the blind or not taking a cast away from where the dog thinks it is and thus wants to go.
> 
> Pete/Darrin, feel free to step in here and educate me.


While we are waiting for Pete and Darrin

I really don't think that Fido is trying to please you by getting the bird. I think Fido has just pleased himself.

Example;
A friend of mine who grows birds for me had his incubators in his back yard. One night about half got out. When he came out in the morning, Ginger his yellow lab,
had them nicely staked under the trampoline. I don't think she was thinking about Rex at the time.  I laughed my a** off and said, you do know she is a hunting dog.

Keith


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> I didn't actually solve it with her Keith. I use her for obedience demos and hunting. If she over runs a bird on a hunt I just handle her back and get it done. I ran out of time for training groups as my obedience business has taken off, so I haven't been working on any hunt test/field trial marking with her. She's awesome as a demo dog in obedience and that's where I really need her to be. Hunting/hunting tests are really a sideline for now.
> 
> If I were to try and solve it, I would try several things.
> 
> ...


I noticed that we where posting at the same time. just wanted to know your thoughts.

Thanks again Keith


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> I noticed that we where posting at the same time. just wanted to know your thoughts.
> 
> Thanks again Keith


Anytime. I don't know all these answers by any means. Someone, somewhere probably has a better answer. I can just say what makes sense to me.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Pack dive encompasses many behaviors also just like prey.
Some breeds are generally naturally low in it making them more difficult to train and they actually like spending time away from groups. Oriental breeds such as the chow chow or sharpie are an good example. But sometimes you run across some which train really nice and those often like to hang out in the group or family. They tend to act different in general than the alloof members.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

A dog who works well with his leader is said to have high pack drive. Yet some high pack drive dogs don't work well with the handler,,because there are other things that affect the dogs willingness to conform. Is the personality of the dog such that it learns quickly but continues to do it his way until enough corrections are administered. Day after day the same scenario arises. I say do this,,the dog does that ,,and you administer the corrections and everything is good. well for today anyway. Pack drive is only a part of what makes a dog highly trainable , There are a lot of factors. Is the dog of a subordinate nature,,,a domineering nature. Both can be high pack.

Trainability encompasses the entire dog's personality. All the drives and all the sensitivities to its environment.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Now you have made me think again. I have always thought the "want to please his human" as bonding. I never have distinguished that from "agree to cooperate", not the same but in my opinion symbionic. I wonder if one could say that a dog "wants to please" but not "agree to cooperate". Seems to me that this could not be the case. I can see how a dog could "agree to cooperate" but not necessarily "want to please"



Dogs and the things dogs do are pleasing to us. But their motivation is not to please us but to please or satisfy themselves. Its hard to imagine that when we look into there soft brown eyes. They stick their head in our lap not to console or comfort but to get scratched. They chase down birds because they are driven to do so.
They bring us birds or toys in hope to get you to throw it again or to initiate play, Thats OK It works great for both parties involved. I will try to write something on pack d tomarro,,,My brain is spent.
Pete


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Pete said:


> A dog who works well with his leader is said to have high pack drive. Yet some high pack drive dogs don't work well with the handler,,because there are other things that affect the dogs willingness to conform. Is the personality of the dog such that it learns quickly but continues to do it his way until enough corrections are administered. Day after day the same scenario arises. I say do this,,the dog does that ,,and you administer the corrections and everything is good. well for today anyway. Pack drive is only a part of what makes a dog highly trainable , There are a lot of factors. Is the dog of a subordinate nature,,,a domineering nature. Both can be high pack.
> 
> Trainability encompasses the entire dog's personality. All the drives and all the sensitivities to its environment.


Now I am confused. If as Mitty said, high pack drive is the dog's willingness to "agree to cooperate" with it's leader(owner?)(handler?), Does the 2nd dog you mention NOT recognize the handler as it's leader? I don't think that a dog that has learned easily what to do but has no willingness to agree to do what it has learned would be considered a dog that has agreed to cooperate.Let me put the question another way. What quality could the 2 dogs have in common that you would define as "high pack drive"?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

caryalsobrook said:


> Now I am confused. If as Mitty said, high pack drive is the dog's willingness to "agree to cooperate" with it's leader(owner?)(handler?), Does the 2nd dog you mention NOT recognize the handler as it's leader? I don't think that a dog that has learned easily what to do but has no willingness to agree to do what it has learned would be considered a dog that has agreed to cooperate.Let me put the question another way. What quality could the 2 dogs have in common that you would define as "high pack drive"?


I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).

This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

mitty said:


> I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).
> 
> This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in.



But would that not have to be the exception rather than the rule?

It is an interesting discussion. If prey and pack drive are qualities that are important in evaluating the promise of a dog, then should not one attempt to identify those qualities or lack there of?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

caryalsobrook said:


> But would that not have to be the exception rather than the rule?
> 
> It is an interesting discussion. If prey and pack drive are qualities that are important in evaluating the promise of a dog, then should not one attempt to identify those qualities or lack there of?


For the first time trainer, probably not.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTENow I am confused. If as Mitty said, high pack drive is the dog's willingness to "agree to cooperate" with it's leader(owner?)(handler?), Does the 2nd dog you mention NOT recognize the handler as it's leader? I don't think that a dog that has learned easily what to do but has no willingness to agree to do what it has learned would be considered a dog that has agreed to cooperate.Let me put the question another way. What quality could the 2 dogs have in common that you would define as "high pack drive"?][/QUOTE]

An example might be
both handler and dog have a tendency to lead. The dog thinks the human has low pack drive. Like I said my brain is spent..


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Understand that your body posture, your voice and eye contact sez a lot. When I stand rigid, they take notice and watch keenly in what I do next. When I sit down, they are relax and come toward me....They know and are better at it than we are. 
My penny worth...


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).
> 
> This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in


There you go Renee
High pack is influence by other drives,personality traits and other sensitivities to the dogs environment.
Same with high prey. 
Thats why we want a dog to have all its inate qualities in balance.
Pete


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> For the first time trainer, probably not.


Regardless of whether the trainer was a first time trainer or an experienced one, would it not be beneficial to both to be aware of the strengths of prey and pack drive? Take a dog with high prey drive and low pack drive as opposed to a dog with low prey drive and high pack drive. I would think these traits would be a significant factor in evaluating whether it was an exception to the rule or not and therefore affect the training approach one should take.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

caryalsobrook said:


> Regardless of whether the trainer was a first time trainer or an experienced one, would it not be beneficial to both to be aware of the strengths of prey and pack drive? Take a dog with high prey drive and low pack drive as opposed to a dog with low prey drive and high pack drive. I would think these traits would be a significant factor in evaluating whether it was an exception to the rule or not and therefore affect the training approach one should take.


Yes to the answer to the experience trainer. To a newbie, it's all gobbiegope....They don't even know what CC,FF or vice versa or something to that effect. We don't want them to be overwhelm when first going out. We want them to understand dog basics and let them go and ask questions then when they understand what it is all about. I believe it is only fair.
I hope that makes sense.

Edit to post: Granted this is a human thing...If I was given the best shotgun in the world(An old AYA) doesn't mean I will shoot the best of all. I might not be able to shoot the broad side of a barn. If I seek guidance in shooting 1&1, then I might be able to shoot the barn. If I ask more guidance then maybe I can shoot a moving target. I have the instrument....and right now that is only a instrument. When I gain knowledge then the instrument becomes me.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

mitty said:


> I think RookieTrainer had a good analogy but the wrong cause---like Truth, I viewed the dog's choice to break as an act to please itself in Rookie's scenario. Dog may be a team player, but sometimes the other drives and instincts override the pack drive/instinct (and training).
> 
> This has been an interesting discussion. Some of the stuff I have learned by reading Truth, Pete and Darrin's posts are starting to sink in.


In thinking more about this and reading the subsequent posts, I think my analogy was incorrect and is probably the basis of a large percentage of training frustration for me and others. It's really not a lot different that employee incentives - find out what a given employee wants and tie it to the performance the employer wants. Why the employee wants whatever it is turns out to be essentially irrelevant; it is enough to know that they want it. 

My dog is having some steadiness issues because I have allowed him to get what he desires - the bird - without consistently giving me the performance I want - steadiness. There is no question that it is my fault. Since I know the thing he wants most is the bird, the steadiness cure seems clear: no OB = no bird. As the standard gets gradually tougher, the equation remains the same. I wish I could say I came up with this simple solution on my own. 

To circle back around, unless a given dog is just stupid, to use a bad word, I am not sure that you can't use his prey drive against him to enforce at least a minimum level of pack drive - with the right mindset on the part of the trainer, that I am trying to develop. Thoughts?

So far I have found that it is working, and that when he started to understand that no OB = no bird, he started giving me what I wanted. We have a long way to go and many different situations to do this in to proof it as a new, replacement habit, but it all comes from the fact that he will do about anything to get a bird - for his own selfish reasons. Once I get it ingrained that "anything to get a bird" = strict OB, I think the two of us can make some progress.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

RookieTrainer said:


> In thinking more about this and reading the subsequent posts, I think my analogy was incorrect and is probably the basis of a large percentage of training frustration for me and others. It's really not a lot different that employee incentives - find out what a given employee wants and tie it to the performance the employer wants. Why the employee wants whatever it is turns out to be essentially irrelevant; it is enough to know that they want it.
> 
> My dog is having some steadiness issues because I have allowed him to get what he desires - the bird - without consistently giving me the performance I want - steadiness. There is no question that it is my fault. Since I know the thing he wants most is the bird, the steadiness cure seems clear: no OB = no bird. As the standard gets gradually tougher, the equation remains the same. I wish I could say I came up with this simple solution on my own.
> 
> ...


 Happy thanksgiving , Don't have a lot of time, but I want to mention that I also like Darrin idea, to steady to wing. That way your dog will know to sit and wait before the shoot goes off. Also make him sit during down time and every time you stop.

Example: 

Instead of just putting each dog away after I run them. I make then sit and wait while I set up for the next one. Even in group training. I will take my young ones and put them in the center of the group while all the BS is going on before we start and make them sit there. This is all so good for honer ( Down) 

Keith


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

So Pete, Extreme prey drive + Very Low pack drive = Indy? He was always the aloof one as a young dog. Only now since I have stopped really training or attempting to compete has he become a lovey dovey house pet. But somehow none of the prey drive has gone away, he has just become more responsive to me in all situations EXCEPT retrieving. And to Steve, yes what you are doing will work, if you start before the dog is completely trial wise and set in their ways. I started too late and gave up too easily. I just got another dog and retired the first one!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> So Pete, Extreme prey drive + Very Low pack drive = Indy? He was always the aloof one as a young dog. Only now since I have stopped really training or attempting to compete has he become a lovey dovey house pet. But somehow none of the prey drive has gone away, he has just become more responsive to me in all situations EXCEPT retrieving. And to Steve, yes what you are doing will work, if you start before the dog is completely trial wise and set in their ways. I started too late and gave up too easily. I just got another dog and retired the first one!


Carol
I would consider Indy High pack and High Prey 
I think he likes to lead and not pay attention much to the handler and he is excitable anticipating birds, and watching them. Just to excitable
He wasn't balanced in all the attributes dog must posess to be succesful in FT,,,but a wonderful dog non the less. Prey brought out his Domineering attiude
Domineering personalities often behave as Indy. They resist being led because their personality is to lead not be led. If high pack allows for a follower it must also allow for a leader.

And when the fight to train a certain way is over ,, they file right in place because the battle of wills is over. Now its time be be lovey dovey showing another side of high pack
My best guess Carol
Happy Thanksgiving to you and Ralph

pete


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Very astute observation Pete. I gave up the fight and got the greatest buddy in the world! Now why doesn't my willing, calm and trainable boy have those eyes and that go! Oh well, if God made 'em perfect we would not get the joy of training them!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

2tall said:


> And to Steve, yes what you are doing will work, if you start before the dog is completely trial wise and set in their ways. I started too late and gave up too easily. I just got another dog and retired the first one!


Thanks for the encouragement. I think the message is starting to break through, and I now have the job of being consistent in denial of retrieves for movement until he decides that he will do what he is asked if it is the only way to get the bird. And I have some additional work to do to transition that over to the honor. 

I got several good honors out of him this PM, and he actually never broke or even moved on the honor. I thought about handing one of my training partners $75 to get him to break, since it seems to work at the hunt tests. 

I got to pick him up at the line twice for raising his rear end, which was good. Of course when he did hold it together long enough to get released he hammered the marks, which was encouraging. 

I also got some tips on handling, and specifically how not to wind him up even more with a couple things I was doing. Probably 10 years and 3 dogs from now I will be approaching a minimal level of competence.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pete said:


> Dogs and the things dogs do are pleasing to us. But their motivation is not to please us but to please or satisfy themselves. Its hard to imagine that when we look into there soft brown eyes. They stick their head in our lap not to console or comfort but to get scratched. They chase down birds because they are driven to do so.
> They bring us birds or toys in hope to get you to throw it again or to initiate play, Thats OK It works great for both parties involved. I will try to write something on pack d tomarro,,,My brain is spent.
> Pete


That's one of the very best posts I've seen ANYWHERE in a while about a dog Pete. When I can get people to understand that in obedience training we seem to get the best results. It's all about "what's in it for me" with a dog. Just happens that what's in it for them also pleases us people.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

caryalsobrook said:


> But would that not have to be the exception rather than the rule?
> 
> It is an interesting discussion. If prey and pack drive are qualities that are important in evaluating the promise of a dog, then should not one attempt to identify those qualities or lack there of?


People do that every day. That's why we have washouts.

That's why we pick our battles.

That's why some dogs are search and rescue, some therapy, some hunting and some protection.

A good program assigns a dog to the job that fits it's personality. I good owner is flexible enough to do the same. Forcing square dogs into round holes is usually no fun for anyone (especially the dog).


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Pete said:


> Carol
> I would consider Indy High pack and High Prey
> I think he likes to lead and not pay attention much to the handler and he is excitable anticipating birds, and watching them. Just to excitable
> He wasn't balanced in all the attributes dog must posess to be succesful in FT,,,but a wonderful dog non the less. Prey brought out his Domineering attiude
> ...


I agree with Pete, having spent enough time with Indy to know him pretty well. I don't think of him as an alpha kind of dog...he really didn't want to control everybody else. He just wanted what HE wanted, and to heck with what anybody else wanted.  

When I think of pack drive, I sort of relate it to people too. You know how the gang mentality works....a group of kids getting into trouble as a group, when as singles they would likely not do the same behaviors, but the pack mentality takes over. And there's often a loose cannon in those groups....you know, the kid who isn't the leader but consistently goes over the top and does something outrageous? 

Or for a more toned down example, a church congregation. Let's say we're attending a Catholic mass, where everybody is following a calm, consistent,quiet routine. Indy would be the guy who jumps up and yells at the top of his lungs "can I hear an Amen, brother!" in the middle of the service while the rest of the congregation stares at him for disrupting things. Heartfelt? Yes. Probably inappropriate in that setting? Yep.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Sharon, you just made kind of a rotten morning much, much brighter. I smiled so big when I read your post that people watching me thought I was probably doing something illegal!


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> People do that every day. That's why we have washouts.
> 
> That's why we pick our battles.
> 
> ...


That is why I asked the question. I had not heard the term "pack drive" but I did have some understanding of dominance and submissiveness. I even have a book where the author talks about those acts of a dog that projects dominance or submissiveness. The decision to wash out a dog should not be taken lightly and all factors should be evaluated(quantified?). Not only do they have to be evaluated but the prospects of bringing them into balance has to be considered. 

These things may be complex and difficult, but why else would one seriously want to train a dog?


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Great posts Pete and Darrin you guy hit it on the head. We look for high powered animals but want to say they have to much drive rather than saying they arent team players. High driven dogs make this sport its the ones that understand teamwork or the "trade off" that shine. Yeah there are dogs that make training a pain because of their personalities but finding a special one that will do anything for the barter of a bird very well could be the best dog one ever has. Adjust your training to what fits each dog, don't blame the dog all the time.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Darrin, This is going off on a tangent, I really would like to know how you are handling this type of dog.
> 
> I have had a few, Their drive was high and their lines where vary good, but they would over run their retrieves and hunt deep. I also know that their working attitude was good, so I came to the conclusion that pressure was not need. I would give them a loud HAY, HAY as they ran past the mark. I did this every time for about 2 months. I seem to work well for me. Just wondering how you handled it.
> 
> Thanks Keith


 High Drive has little to do with marking. 
High Drive gives a dog perseverance in the hunt, but doesn't not equal good marking. High Drive in the hands of a rookie trainer could cause marking to become very poor. Dog puts on big hunts because his drive and perseverance is so high but the dog never marks a birds. The dog just runs frantic until his need for a bird is fulfilled. 
I have seen low drive dogs that were very good markers but would of gotten 2's for style. 
Simplify marks puppies should be marking not hunting. When teaching young dogs to mark make sure they have every chance to see the mark hit the ground and that the AOF is in short cover or no cover at all. So the pup is learning to use their eyes and not their nose. If the pup can see the mark through the air and as it hits the ground and if the AOF to clear and short, the pup should not be over running marks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

WBF said:


> Great posts Pete and Darrin you guy hit it on the head. We look for high powered animals but want to say they have to much drive rather than saying they arent team players. High driven dogs make this sport its the ones that understand teamwork or the "trade off" that shine. Yeah there are dogs that make training a pain because of their personalities but finding a special one that will do anything for the barter of a bird very well could be the best dog one ever has. Adjust your training to what fits each dog, don't blame the dog all the time.



High prey drive does not necessarily mean high power. Nor does it necessarily mean stylish


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> High prey drive does not necessarily mean high power. Nor does it necessarily mean stylish


Very True!!!!!!!!!


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

WBF said:


> Great posts Pete and Darrin you guy hit it on the head. We look for high powered animals but want to say they have to much drive rather than saying they arent team players. High driven dogs make this sport its the ones that understand teamwork or the "trade off" that shine. Yeah there are dogs that make training a pain because of their personalities but finding a special one that will do anything for the barter of a bird very well could be the best dog one ever has. Adjust your training to what fits each dog, don't blame the dog all the time.


When looking at it as a trainer and that would be my advise. This is well within reason and I understand your point.

Now if we where to stay within the contexts of the OP ( To much drive ) we would have to explain why, this dog is not willing to be a team player.
I would explain it in a ratio. The dogs over all drive is higher then it's willingness to be a team player. Which IMO = to much drive. You can also say that their willingness to be a team player is lower.

Sometimes the ratio ( Drive compared to work ethic ) is such that, they can not reach the highest levels of competition. 

Keith


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I don't believe that there is a necessary relationship between prey drive and team work. That is, a dog's willingness to cooperate is not necessarily linked to its desire to acquire prey.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> I don't believe that there is a necessary relationship between prey drive and team work. That is, a dog's willingness to cooperate is not necessarily linked to its desire to acquire prey.


Please explain.
Keith


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

You assume that a dog with high prey drive must be less cooperative.
Or the converse, a dog with low prey drive must be more cooperative.
I don't think that direct relationship has been established.
People act as though it were so. I am less certain.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Please explain.
> Keith


I think I may be able to explain this.
A blind retrieve is all team work. You know where the bird is and the dog doesn't. So you send the dog and the dog is running in the direction you sent him then beings to fade for whatever reason. You blow a sit whistle the high drive dog believes he know where his reward (bird) is so he blows off the whistle. That is where the team concept is lost, the High Drive dog that will go through anything to get his bird will also go through you for his bird. I know some people will say well that's a lack of training, and I would tend to agree, but your chances of having a dog become self employed are greater with the high drive dog, or at least that is my experience. 
Danny Farmer said there are 3 types of dogs.
A-dog high drive takes pressure in great amounts but will tend to do what he wants do and will do anything to get the bird he wants. 
B-dog Med drive team player will take pressure but not great amounts. Team player, and a forgiving dog. 
C-dog Low drive will not take pressure and is very unforgiving not a daily trainer.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Some of these psycho-analytical observations seem as if one has let the dog grow to an adult age in a pack and then tries to walk in and train the animal. 

Who does that? Dogs will be dogs. Dogs will do what you did teach them and often do what you didn't teach them. Drive has little effect unless it is complete lack of it. That's why it's called dog training and not dog observing. However, many folks seem to do more observing and analyzing versus training. Usually, sitting at the tailgate making excuses.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Some of these psycho-analytical observations seem as if one has let the dog grow to an adult age in a pack and then tries to walk in and train the animal.
> 
> Who does that? Dogs will be dogs. Dogs will do what you did teach them and often do what you didn't teach them. Drive has little effect unless it is complete lack of it. That's why it's called dog training and not dog observing. However, many folks seem to do more observing and analyzing versus training. Usually, sitting at the tailgate making excuses.


Happy, Happy, Happy, You just gave me a buzz kill   Trust me I do a lot more training then talking about it. Can't you tell.

Keith


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> You assume that a dog with high prey drive must be less cooperative.
> Or the converse, a dog with low prey drive must be more cooperative.
> I don't think that direct relationship has been established.
> People act as though it were so. I am less certain.


Well stated!!


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Golden Boy said:


> I think I may be able to explain this.
> A blind retrieve is all team work. You know where the bird is and the dog doesn't. So you send the dog and the dog is running in the direction you sent him then beings to fade for whatever reason. You blow a sit whistle the high drive dog believes he know where his reward (bird) is so he blows off the whistle. That is where the team concept is lost, the High Drive dog that will go through anything to get his bird will also go through you for his bird. I know some people will say well that's a lack of training, and I would tend to agree, but your chances of having a dog become self employed are greater with the high drive dog, or at least that is my experience.
> Danny Farmer said there are 3 types of dogs.
> A-dog high drive takes pressure in great amounts but will tend to do what he wants do and will do anything to get the bird he wants.
> ...


If Mr Farmer ( Whom I do not know )can see it, it's good enough me.

Keith


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> You assume that a dog with high prey drive must be less cooperative.
> Or the converse, a dog with low prey drive must be more cooperative.
> I don't think that direct relationship has been established.
> People act as though it were so. I am less certain.


I think there is a direct relationship between drive and being a team player. I believe you have to communcate differently and train different depending on the dogs drive. Your actions and body actions will cause different dogs to react different depending on thier level of drive.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> If Mr Farmer ( Whom I do not know )can see it, it's good enough me.
> 
> Keith


I don't know Danny Farmer either. It's just something he talks about on his training video problems and solutions. And I've seen these different types of dogs during training.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

High power does not necessarily equal high prey drive
I think people are confusing high drive (that is, high power) with high prey drive
That being said, I will leave others to debate these esoteric issues


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Golden Boy said:


> I think there is a direct relationship between drive and being a team player. I believe you have to communcate differently and train different depending on the dogs drive. Your actions and body actions will cause different dogs to react different depending on thier level of drive.


So, how shall one relate to dogs with very high level obedience titles yet, can barely(or not) pass a JH?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> So, how shall one relate to dogs with very high level obedience titles yet, can barely(or not) pass a JH?


Paul;
This is a vary gray area, I would have to work with the dog to answer your question.

Keith


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Paul, when you remove the prey that drives the drive, of course obedience improves. Your obedience trials do not have that one element that brings on the problem.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Golden Boy said:


> I don't know Danny Farmer either. It's just something he talks about on his training video problems and solutions. And I've seen these different types of dogs during training.


As a trainer I feel that you are making this type of evaluation all the time as the pup is maturing. 

Example;
As it pertains, to drive compared to working attitude. 
Is the the dog blowing me off or are they trying to do the right thing. 

Keith


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> So, how shall one relate to dogs with very high level obedience titles yet, can barely(or not) pass a JH?


I'd pump up the dog, make the dog bird crazy. This dog would be give live birds as much as possible. Not shot flyers but clip winged birds and I'd let the dog have fun with the birds chasing them and carrying them around. Birds and retrieving would be all fun and I'd lay off the OB during retriever training until the dog is bird crazy.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

So a dog with "too much" prey drive will be an angel in other venues making them more successful in one versus the other? interesting thought process especially, when one goes back to the psychoanalytical views of situational and conditional learning which so much weight is put into discussing.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> So a dog with "too much" prey drive will be an angel in other venues making them more successful in one versus the other? interesting thought process especially, when one goes back to the psychoanalytical views of situational and conditional learning which so much weight is put into discussing.


Yep, there's no prey at the OB trial for the dog to get worked up about. So no need to get excited on the dogs behalf. But I believe the dog your talking about with the OB titles and has trouble retrieving at a JH level. Had very little to no prey drive to start with. The dogs prey drive was never unlocked as a puppy. That is why I said the dog needs live birds to heighten his prey drive.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I think in retrievers, chase, prey drive , birdiness are somewhat all different and all the same same depending on the venue. I had a very nice Master Hunter all-age dog with a CDX (open obedience) that loved to chase. If you threw a bumper, shot a flyer, a dirt clod whatever he would run from point A to point B as fast as he could from a few yards to 300 yards didn't matter. Once he got there it was a OK now I'am here will pick it up and bring it home. His obedience trials were the same, flip finish from the front, fast out fast back. I had another CDX all-age Master Hunter, all-age FT dog, very birdy, in fact loved his birds, kinda paced himself, not flashy, but, did the work. Used a tennis ball to bring his style up at times. Now his sire was a National Amateur Field Trial Champion, he wasn't the fastest "racehorse" but was a excellent marker and obviously winning the National Amateur was a major feat. Could genetics play a role here? Drive and style can be probably mentioned in the same breath. I have seen some very high drive dogs that just weren't the best markers. It wasn't because of line manners either, just were not very good markers. Now we can go to too much drive and what the field trialers call bottom. Drive does not necessarily make bottom (to hijack another thread ) I have trained some very high drive dogs that lacked bottom. Bottom in my opinion isn't courage by itself or high far can I leap into the water. That would be a high drive dog that perhaps lacked bottom. Bottom in my opinion would be a triple, shot flyer off to the side short or long, two long retired one maybe 300 yards another 400 yards. The dog picks up the stand-up flyer, then goes for the 300 yard mark gets that one, then is sent for the 400 yard mark, and goes and goes and goes, not checking back on the stand up flyer station, does not curl back on the flyer or the previously picked up 300 yard mark and goes and goes , gets the 400 yard mark That dog has bottom, does it have drive?


I dunno.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Criquetpas said:


> I think in retrievers, chase, prey drive , birdiness are somewhat all different and all the same same depending on the venue. I had a very nice Master Hunter all-age dog with a CDX (open obedience) that loved to chase. If you threw a bumper, shot a flyer, a dirt clod whatever he would run from point A to point B as fast as he could from a few yards to 300 yards didn't matter. Once he got there it was a OK now I'am here will pick it up and bring it home. His obedience trials were the same, flip finish from the front, fast out fast back. I had another CDX all-age Master Hunter, all-age FT dog, very birdy, in fact loved his birds, kinda paced himself, not flashy, but, did the work. Used a tennis ball to bring his style up at times. Now his sire was a National Amateur Field Trial Champion, he wasn't the fastest "racehorse" but was a excellent marker and obviously winning the National Amateur was a major feat. Could genetics play a role here? Drive and style can be probably mentioned in the same breath. I have seen some very high drive dogs that just weren't the best markers. It wasn't because of line manners either, just were not very good markers. Now we can go to too much drive and what the field trialers call bottom. Drive does not necessarily make bottom (to hijack another thread ) I have trained some very high drive dogs that lacked bottom. Bottom in my opinion isn't courage by itself or high far can I leap into the water. That would be a high drive dog that perhaps lacked bottom. Bottom in my opinion would be a triple, shot flyer off to the side short or long, two long retired one maybe 300 yards another 400 yards. The dog picks up the stand-up flyer, then goes for the 300 yard mark gets that one, then is sent for the 400 yard mark, and goes and goes and goes, not checking back on the stand up flyer station, does not curl back on the flyer or the previously picked up 300 yard mark and goes and goes , gets the 400 yard mark That dog has bottom, does it have drive?
> 
> 
> I dunno.


This is what I like about this thread. I get to know about all these terms and definitions pertaining to our dogs.Now I got what Ken was trying to do with his post.

Bottom, In my world has more to do with stamina then drive. To go the extra mile and never quite.

Keith


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

Criquetpas said:


> I think in retrievers, chase, prey drive , birdiness are somewhat all different and all the same same depending on the venue. I had a very nice Master Hunter all-age dog with a CDX (open obedience) that loved to chase. If you threw a bumper, shot a flyer, a dirt clod whatever he would run from point A to point B as fast as he could from a few yards to 300 yards didn't matter. Once he got there it was a OK now I'am here will pick it up and bring it home. His obedience trials were the same, flip finish from the front, fast out fast back. I had another CDX all-age Master Hunter, all-age FT dog, very birdy, in fact loved his birds, kinda paced himself, not flashy, but, did the work. Used a tennis ball to bring his style up at times. Now his sire was a National Amateur Field Trial Champion, he wasn't the fastest "racehorse" but was a excellent marker and obviously winning the National Amateur was a major feat. Could genetics play a role here? Drive and style can be probably mentioned in the same breath. I have seen some very high drive dogs that just weren't the best markers. It wasn't because of line manners either, just were not very good markers. Now we can go to too much drive and what the field trialers call bottom. Drive does not necessarily make bottom (to hijack another thread ) I have trained some very high drive dogs that lacked bottom. Bottom in my opinion isn't courage by itself or high far can I leap into the water. That would be a high drive dog that perhaps lacked bottom. Bottom in my opinion would be a triple, shot flyer off to the side short or long, two long retired one maybe 300 yards another 400 yards. The dog picks up the stand-up flyer, then goes for the 300 yard mark gets that one, then is sent for the 400 yard mark, and goes and goes and goes, not checking back on the stand up flyer station, does not curl back on the flyer or the previously picked up 300 yard mark and goes and goes , gets the 400 yard mark That dog has bottom, does it have drive?
> 
> 
> I dunno.


I would believe drive/bottom along with think/brains, not going to the old falls, and trusting their marking ability achieved the successful retrieves. 

Was it just prey drive which allowed them to focus on all the marks? Was the prey drive combined with teamwork at the line (think/brains achieving teamwork again). 

Did the prey drive only kick it when they froze on the last bird retrieved? One of the hardest things to correct.

My first dog was a nut because of my OB training but he's still a really good marker even at 13 but since he gallops and trots has he lost his prey/high drive? (Still a nut at the line.) OB training will always be at the top of my list. I currently have a 1 year old female which sits like a angel but drools until she is sent for a mark/marks. I would say she has both drives along with driving me crazy keeping one step ahead of her. 

I have enjoyed reading all the responses. 

However, if dog cannot mark or don't have think/brain the last concern will be their drives.


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