# Sit To Flush? Anybody training their retrievers to do so?



## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Loki and I do a lot of walking around the property and we have a lot of pheasants around. He shows great birdy-ness when he gets on a scent and has already flushed a couple. This got me thinking about some pointing dogs that I've seen who sit on the flush. I can see a lot of reasons why this would be a great thing for an upland dog to do and am wondering if any of you guys train your labs to do so? I would imagine that it is taught but haven't seen much discussion of it here.


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## Chris Bergner (Aug 14, 2012)

Anyone running HRC Upland has their dog steady to wing and shot. The dog must be steady to flush, the bird is shot, the dog is released for the retrieve.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

MNHunter,
I do train for this. Very useful in hunting of upland birds. A dog that is steady to wing, shot, and fall will sit on the flush, is much more safe as he will stay and not interject himself into the line of fire, the dog can watch the bird and mark it's area of fall better, and he / she waits until commanded to move in for the retrieve. Additionally, the dog is not disturbing other birds that may be holding tight in the area as an out of control dog scours the area for a bird that he may not have marked at all or marked poorly because he was on the move.

Irishwhistler


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Definitely want that flusher to sit and mark after the flush. Chasing flying birds gets them downrange possibly into someone's field of fire etc. when I was doing puppy work with my gundog- at like 10-12 weeks once sit was well known, I would use a flirt pole to simulate a flush, and then say sit- and when she did, I'd toss the wing for a retrieve. That's how i introduced the idea to a little puppy- and she started to get the idea. I formalized everything with a bird launcher , a check cord and a whistle. Walk the field with pup on check cord, let her get burst and move in for a flush and launch the bird while saying sit, or tooting the whistle and pulling up in the check cord. She sits- and then is sent for the retrieve. Pretty easy even training solo, and without much experience. Now also- people keep mentioning a program, and you keep saying Hillman. I was going a more traditional route with mine, so all this training just fit in wherever it fit- the puppy part couldn't start until she knew sit- didn't need to be perfect. The formal part couldn't start until she was collar conditioned, and understood a sit whistle- and again it was a process like steadying- it didn't just happen, it got taught, it got enforced, and then it got shown a 100 times in a bunch of differnt scenarios and sometimes she gets it right and sometimes she breaks. But anyway- all this is to say, 1) since you aren't hunt testing or trailing I wouldn't really worry much about teaching upland work alongside your program, and 2) how you fit it in alongside hillman isn't anything I know about.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Define a retriever sitting to flush










then define retriever...










MG


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

MNHunter said:


> Loki and I do a lot of walking around the property and we have a lot of pheasants around. He shows great birdy-ness when he gets on a scent and has already flushed a couple. This got me thinking about some pointing dogs that I've seen who sit on the flush. I can see a lot of reasons why this would be a great thing for an upland dog to do and am wondering if any of you guys train your labs to do so? I would imagine that it is taught but haven't seen much discussion of it here.


If you actually hunt your dog on pheasants, IMO. it is a bad idea. ( unless all you do in preserve hunting ) I want my dogs on the bird as fast as possible when it is hit because of the heavy cover and the pheasants ability to run. If you have ever hunted in SD cattails, you would understand. If all you do are games, then why not. 

My approach to account for a sit to flush situation is a whistle. Then I control when they sit.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Golddogs said:


> If you actually hunt your dog on pheasants, IMO. it is a bad idea. ( unless all you do in preserve hunting ) I want my dogs on the bird as fast as possible when it is hit because of the heavy cover and the pheasants ability to run. If you have ever hunted in SD cattails, you would understand. If all you do are games, then why not.
> 
> My approach to account for a sit to flush situation is a whistle. Then I control when they sit.


There ya go another good perspective. My dog hunts a preserve a lot, and part of the deal is the clients want to see "better" dog work than they "normally" would, and it's of course penraised birds, and shooters who aren't necessarily setting world records for safety. Otherwise it's grouse in the woods alone or with my son and a friend and She sits to the flush there also but Its never been a liability as in we've never lost a bird because of it.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Any flusher/retriever should be sitting to flush. It's a matter of safety. I will also say that a dog marks a fall much better when it is stopped.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

"Sit to flush" is very, very easy to train for.

Many of us who run or ran NAHRA wind up having a dog that gets to the intermediate or senior level that breaks on the flush. Once we got there, we learned how to train for it.

I'm very glad I learned how to train for it, and my current 9 year old will sit on a flush if I make him. But most of my upland bird hunting is with gunners I trust on wild birds. I've kinda come full circle and I let him break on flush.

I have an 11 week old pup that I'll be training and I suspect I'll not bother teaching him to be steady on the flush at all.

If I were upland hunting on youth hunts, guided hunts, customer outings, etc, you better believe I'd make my dog be steady on the flush. Just like driving a motorcycle, it's not so important what I'm going to do - it's that "other guy" whose actions I cannot control. 

Chris

P.S. I remember back in the late 90's FOM had her old lab "Flash" breaking on the flush. I remember her working through this very training step. I think she'd agree that once she worked through it, it was actually quite simple.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Training for "sit to flush" gives you one more way of "telling" a dog to remain sitting on the "shot flyer".

If you hunt pheasants and find it necessary to "get on the bird" right away the trained release is effective. A responsive, well trained dog will look to you for the "next step"....quickly. 

The conflict is an old "discussion" that never really has one solution. 

*Steady to Shot (link)*


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Golddogs said:


> If you actually hunt your dog on pheasants, IMO. it is a bad idea. ( unless all you do in preserve hunting ) I want my dogs on the bird as fast as possible when it is hit because of the heavy cover and the pheasants ability to run. If you have ever hunted in SD cattails, you would understand. If all you do are games, then why not.
> 
> My approach to account for a sit to flush situation is a whistle. Then I control when they sit.


I would disagree whole heartedly. If you need a quick release just give the dog the release command as soon as the bird is going down or hits the ground. Not having your unsteady dog go 100 miles an hour into a barb wire fence is pretty handy in the field. Hunting Iowa and SD for 10 years I can't think of one instance that the dog didn't get there quick enough because he sat on the flush and shot.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> If you need a quick release just give the dog the release command as soon as the bird is going down or hits the ground.


Know this is a hotly contested topic with most wild upland bird hunters opting for breaking with the flush, but an awful lot of essentially side-by-side steady verses breaking dog comparisons changed my mind about the efficiency of breaking with the flush, as the breaking dog dividing its attention between navigation and a fly-off crip's flight is far more apt to lose track of its mark. (Also ended my habit of cutting dogs loose early on waterfowl fly-offs.) It's not the dog that leaves the line first that has the best odds of quick recoveries but the dog that's first to the AOF, and there's too often a difference.

Then, too, there's the question of whether the breaking pup will be focused on the same bird as his gunner on multiple bird flushes...


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## Paul Frey (Jun 15, 2012)

I train for sit on the flush. It is a much safer way than having the dog chase a low flying bird. We taught on a 30' check cord. As the dog quarters the field, bird goes up, hit the sit whistle and give a tug on the check cord. After a while they get it. I also replace the check cord with the e-collar. Sit whitle, nick. I dont have to do any of it anymore. It is ingrained in her to sit on the flush (but we keep the collar on just in case).


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

All my dogs are trained to sit to flush, it's safer for them when hunting with others who might not remember to watch out for the dog. That said when we're hunting wild birds, it's more of a steady to shot; the dogs knows to pause and watch; while the guns go off; as soon as a bird shows to be going down, and the guns stop; if I don't actively enforce a sit, they release themselves and are on it. Train for it enough, run enough tests where it's required and the pause becomes ingrained. They'll do it automatically and you don't have to worry about blowing a whistle or your dog getting shot. Dogs are pretty situational learners they become able to distinguish the difference btw testing, planted birds, wild-birds; and will change their hunting style for each. I don't want a ultra solid sit on wild-birds, but I do want them to pause & watch, rather than chase. A watching dog marks birds better, and can be on a cripple faster than a dog just running after it with no real direction, who by continuously moving might put himself in a position to get shot.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

IowaBayDog said:


> *I would disagree whole heartedly*. If you need a quick release just give the dog the release command as soon as the bird is going down or hits the ground. Not having your unsteady dog go 100 miles an hour into a barb wire fence is pretty handy in the field. Hunting Iowa and SD for 10 years I can't think of one instance that the dog didn't get there quick enough because he sat on the flush and shot.



Of course you do. First of all, no one said the dogs are unsteady. Try to stay on point which is steady to flush. Second, in cover over the dogs head, how do you imagine they mark the bird dropping 20-30yds out w/o seeing it ? third, in thick cattails with sent everywhere, I want every chance to recover the game ASAP. They also are trained to respond to no bird when a hen is flushed.

Hunting Pheasants in SD, MN and IA for 20 + years I have yet to have a dog run 100 miles an hour into a fence because the dogs hunt under control at 20-30 yds out. They just don't sit to flush.

If your dogs were better trained, you wouldn't have them running into fence wire.;-)


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> All my dogs are trained to sit to flush, it's safer for them when hunting with others who might not remember to watch out for the dog. That said when we're hunting wild birds,* it's more of a steady to shot; *the dogs know to pause and watch; while the guns go off; as soon as a bird shows to be going down, if I don't actively enforce a sit, they release themselves and are on it. Train for it enough, run enough tests where it's required and the pause becomes ingrained. They'll do it automatically and you don't have to worry about blowing a whistle or your dog getting shot. Dogs are pretty situational learners they become able to distinguish the difference btw testing, planted birds, wild-birds; and will change their hunting style for each. I don't want a ultra solid sit on wild-birds, but I do want them pause & watch, rather than chase.


 Very well put and more in line with the way we hunt. Blind hunting is a different animal and they do not go until sent. Good post.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Golddogs said:


> Of course you do. First of all, no one said the dogs are unsteady. Try to stay on point which is steady to flush. Second, in cover over the dogs head, how do you imagine they mark the bird dropping 20-30yds out w/o seeing it ? third, in thick cattails with sent everywhere, I want every chance to recover the game ASAP. They also are trained to respond to no bird when a hen is flushed.
> 
> Hunting Pheasants in SD, MN and IA for 20 + years I have yet to have a dog run 100 miles an hour into a fence because the dogs hunt under control at 20-30 yds out. They just don't sit to flush.
> 
> If your dogs were better trained, you wouldn't have them running into fence wire.;-)


They are very well trained, that's why they sit and are steady to flush and shot, like they are supposed to. I prefer to have the option of controlling the dog.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Golddogs said:


> Very well put and more in line with the way we hunt. Blind hunting is a different animal and they do not go until sent. Good post.


Your 20 years of hunting you haven't figured out the terminology then. What Hunt'Em Up described is steady to flush and NOT steady to shot, the dog is breaking on the shot.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I actually think that if you upland hunt enough, an "intelligent" dog will learn to pause to shot-flush-whatever  on it's own, just as "most" learn to pace themselves so they can maintain a hunt for hours-days on end. Most dogs instinctively want to watch the birds fall. They learn pretty quick that chasing birds wastes energy and doesn't help them get a retrieve, especially if you've got an older dog who by watching the falls gets most of the birds. Of course in my experience most hunting groups; are pretty akin to a level of duck-hunt, with a lot of shooting and dogs pausing-laughing . A dog learns pretty fast that there might be many flushes, many shots, many fly-a ways with no birds to retrieve. Even a young dog gets tired of running around like an idiot "eventually", and they really dislike being put up in the truck, when older smarter dogs gets to stay out and laugh at hunters all day.

If a dog knows a whistle sit it's pretty easy to teach sit to flush. All you do is blow a whistle on the flush, the dog sits; do it enough it becomes ingrained. Now I bet most who don't "technically" teach or enforce sit to flush; would still have a rather big issue with a dog not instantly "sitting" and waiting for direction once they have blown a whistle. Regardless of what's going on in the field.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

The CKC master hunter has a series in each event for quartering and sit to flush. 
The National Master has always had a live flyer quater and sit to flush. 
Sometimes they fly away and sometimes they get shot 

Easy to train for sit to flush and it's another tool in your dog bag 
Have fun 
Dk


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## Dwestall (Aug 30, 2011)

Golddogs said:


> If you actually hunt your dog on pheasants, IMO. it is a bad idea. ( unless all you do in preserve hunting ) I want my dogs on the bird as fast as possible when it is hit because of the heavy cover and the pheasants ability to run. If you have ever hunted in SD cattails, you would understand. If all you do are games, then why not.
> 
> My approach to account for a sit to flush situation is a whistle. Then I control when they sit.


This times 12


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

The fascinating fact about dog training is that one can teach or allow any behavior and passionately justify the results (or not).


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

KwickLabs said:


> The fascinating fact about dog training is that one can teach or allow any behavior and passionately justify the results (or not).


Probably the truest statement in this thread!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

IowaBayDog said:


> Your 20 years of hunting you haven't figured out the terminology then. What Hunt'Em Up described is steady to flush and NOT steady to shot, the dog is breaking on the shot.


I'll admit I find it all to be Blurred terminology . My dogs are lazy, They'll only break after they see a bird has actually been hit and is falling, If the bird's not hit-falling they don't bother going, they wait for a command or go back to finding more birds to flush. (I'd call it unsteady to the Fall?) Not sure where the shot falls into all of it, usually when a bird is falling the shooting has stopped;(seems like something I'd have tuaght them to wait for). I'll have to examine next time I'm out. Many years of working with a very experienced Upland-team of dogs, you learn to trust them and just enjoy the hunt. .


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Now I bet most who don't "technically" teach or enforce sit to flush; would still have a rather big issue with a dog not instantly "sitting" and waiting for direction once they have blown a whistle. Regardless of what's going on in the field.


Ain't that the truth ! ..Try it when the dog is already released and hunting on scent ;-). Sitting to flush at heel or in Stationary mode is childs play. 
Ask a Spaniel trainer especially one that hunts on 'ground game'


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## DSMITH1651 (Feb 23, 2008)

My group of hunters uses a controlled pursuet, the dogs are allowed to chase for a short distance, probably out to 60 yds then they stop and watch or come in. We use the tone on the e-collar for recall we do not use whistles in the field unless absolutely necessary. If the bird is hit they are allowed to continue on for the retrieve. The old dogs know how to do this the young ones figure it out fast. 
I did have one trained to sit to flush but started losing to meny birds in the thick swamps we like to hunt.
Duane
PS never had a dog hurt retrieving a bird its when they are hunting hard they get cut up.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> Ask a Spaniel trainer especially one that hunts on 'ground game'


Kachinng!

One of the differences in hunting as espoused in this forum and the rest of the world is ground game, and therein lies the requirement for sitting to flush. I witnessed one careless man shoot and kill his own Springer when it coursed a rabbit. My own ESS had seen the bunny go and had sat to flush and a whistle pip. He was about ten yards away when Len shot Patch. Similarly, in Scotland, with the same dog sitting beside me I saw a Labrador chase a wounded (low flying) pheasant out of cover and on to the A 74 near Eaglesfield and get killed by a car perhaps fifteen yards from me. 

If you've got a big engine fit some big brakes.

Eug


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Further 'Up the chain'. would be ''drop to flush'' ?
As in Setters where in the old day's there was no gun !!
Just a net to throw over the dogs head and catch the game 'found' by the dog and within ''Arms'' throw .


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

Another thought on this. I have had my dogs chase and retrieve pheasants that I didn't know were hit. They did as they won't pursue missed birds. I also hunt the thick stuff. Its where the birds are and the pointers don't go.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ZEKESMAN said:


> Another thought on this. I have had my dogs chase and retrieve pheasants that I didn't know were hit.


After a season on live game, I'm more than sure 'They' _Dog's _ Know when a bird is hit even took a pellet or not before many handlers who don't shoot game regularly .


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> If you actually hunt your dog on pheasants, IMO. it is a bad idea. ( unless all you do in preserve hunting ) I want my dogs on the bird as fast as possible when it is hit because of the heavy cover and the pheasants ability to run. If you have ever hunted in SD cattails, you would understand. If all you do are games, then why not.
> 
> My approach to account for a sit to flush situation is a whistle. Then I control when they sit.


This.

Look up the Dobbs training online and it will give you a method to train for it. It is rather easy and dogs enjoy it.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Chris Bergner said:


> Anyone running HRC Upland has their dog steady to wing and shot. The dog must be steady to flush, the bird is shot, the dog is released for the retrieve.


Also, any dog running AKC Spaniel tests (Retrievers can do this now) in Master need to be steady to wing and shot.


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