# All-Age Water Blinds...



## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

Here are two all age water blinds we ran this week. 

The first is 300 yards with three points to deal with...two to get on and one to stay off. There is a huge cove beyond the prominent point (to the left) that really draws the dogs in. Wind is blowing toward the left shore line at about 15-20.












The second (just ran a little while ago) covers two ponds. The initial line has the dogs skinny by a tree after coming off a hill at an angle. The dogs must hold a side hill run to get in the cove in skinny fashion (the cove is much wider than it appears...probably 60 yards or so across). The dogs must cross the point near the base, angle through lily pads, cross a heavily scented dike road, angle through the other pond off the tip of another point, exit on an angle, and finally jump pine tree limbs to get the bird.

Wind also blowing into left shore line at about 20-30 today.














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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

In the first picture. Near the base of the last point the dogs cross would be a nice place to put a gunner shooting a pheasant flyer thrown right to left. Do the blind then get the flyer.


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

Lot's of options to add on these setups...



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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Keith, your pictures are making me quite envious! I would love to run that water blind and some of the marks you have posted!! Keep on posting away!


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Cool.Only problem with my young dog in Opens is they must add poison birds ,gunners,under arcs ,dry pops,or all the dogs will run the blinds.Have not seen a straight up blind yet ! haha


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

It is much easier to cross a piece of land at a 90 degree than to cross at an angle toward the shore, nice piece of water!


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

Thanks Ed...Mike worked really hard developing water so that we can produce extraordinary retrievers.




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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Nice water Keith, but just so that no one is misled, those are not all-age blinds. This is the level of work we do in training with dogs who are ramping up to run the Q. And they'd better be able to tackle more than this if they plan to win one.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

X 2 You would need to add some things for #1 to be an AA blind cold. Nice piece of water though. Thanks for sharing the pics.



Melanie Foster said:


> Nice water Keith, but just so that no one is misled, those are not all-age blinds. This is the level of work we do in training with dogs who are ramping up to run the Q. And they'd better be able to tackle more than this if they plan to win one.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Keith Farmer said:


> angle through lily pads, cross a heavily scented dike road, angle through the other pond off the tip of another point, exit on an angle


Sorry, probably dumb question, but where are these angles?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Nice water, nice blinds. I have only been to the line a few times in competition, but I can say that the blinds we saw in the Q were much more difficult. Even though they did not include poison birds, etc. the angles were quite pronounced, and have included no see'um sends in at least two I have run.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Wade said:


> X 2 You would need to add some things for #1 to be an AA blind cold. Nice piece of water though. Thanks for sharing the pics.


You shush now, you're in my zone, I want WB like these in Qual this season. ;-) Jealous of any open water, sure would be lovely to train there, very nice.


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## my2ylws (Aug 12, 2010)

Nice pics Keith. Anxious to see your add ons to this training scenario. Thanks for sharing!


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## duxbac (Apr 22, 2009)

Very nice thanks for posting! 

How would you teach this to young dogs? Do you break it up into sections and run each section then combine the whole ? or would you tackle the whole set-up and handle to the blind?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

We do those blinds for our HT dogs. I think it frankly goes to show that dog training is dog training. Thank god though that we now have a completely original series of training video's designed to help people train a hunt test dog. 

"A trained dog is a trained dog..."...... Danny Farmer....

/Paul


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

That pond must be fairly protected from the wind if it was blowing 20 to 30 mph there should be white caps on the pond.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

duxbac said:


> How would you teach this to young dogs? Do you break it up into sections and run each section then combine the whole ? or would you tackle the whole set-up and handle to the blind?


Great question. And it depends on what you mean by young dogs and to what level you want to take them.

Personally, we would rarely break blinds like this down into sections. We would have introduced going over points and swimming by points in a very simple setting and would not combine both until dogs understood that both are perfectly acceptable...and expected. 

That being said, let's say the blinds pictured were marks. There is a definite possibility we would start closer up then add each additional challenge until we were back at what is shown here as the initial line from where the dog would be sent. Handling could/would still be involved.


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

> Sorry, probably dumb question, but where are these angles?


My descriptions are accurate. One dimensional pictures leave a lot to be desire I am aware. But to answer your question...

The initial line for the blind is on a hill about midway of the larger pond on the NE side. The birds were planted up a hill on the bank of another upper pond on the SW side. Therefore, if one were to draw a line on a page from SW to NE it would be an angle...not a straight line. Everything from start to finish on the blind in question was at an angle on that NE to SW plane.



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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Keith Farmer said:


> My descriptions are accurate. One dimensional pictures leave a lot to be desire I am aware. But to answer your question...
> 
> The initial line for the blind is on a hill about midway of the larger pond on the NE side. The birds were planted up a hill on the bank of another upper pond on the SW side. Therefore, if one were to draw a line on a page from SW to NE it would be an angle...not a straight line. Everything from start to finish on the blind in question was at an angle on that NE to SW plane.


Thanks for your response Keith, but I'm still not seeing it. Geography does not add angles. Factors do.


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

> Nice water Keith, but just so that no one is misled, those are not all-age blinds.



I disagree with your assessment....



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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

> Thanks for your response Keith, but I'm still not seeing it. Geography does not add angles. Factors do.




Your "seeing it" really does not concern me...the angles are there. 

I don't plan on trying to convince you of that certainty...why bother?



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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

> That pond must be fairly protected from the wind if it was blowing 20 to 30 mph there should be white caps on the pond.



Don't know what to tell you Scott...are you saying that I am lying or something? What is up with you?



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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Waitaminute, questions are being asked about something you posted. Nothing malicious. (Consider yourself lucky. ;-))

It's a forum. You chose to share something. We ask questions, right? Isn't that what it's about?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Kim, You come run the Q @ Virginia this summer and I will give you a Q WB like this. How does that sound? We'll try to reduce the amount of swimming water though, if that's ok.



Rainmaker said:


> You shush now, you're in my zone, I want WB like these in Qual this season. ;-) Jealous of any open water, sure would be lovely to train there, very nice.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Wade said:


> Kim, You come run the Q @ Virginia this summer and I will give you a Q WB like this. How does that sound? We'll try to reduce the amount of swimming water though, if that's ok.


Looking forward to it.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Maybe you could add a very long land entry with a no see-um.


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

> Waitaminute, questions are being asked about something you posted. Nothing malicious. (Consider yourself lucky. )



Questioning is one thing...I don't mind the questioning....it is the assertions that my description is inaccurate that is a bit over the top. I will offer you the same as I did John and Ken. If you want to schedule a flight and come train you are welcome...may help answer your questions.


I don't believe in "luck"...


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Keith Farmer said:


> Questioning is one thing...I don't mind the questioning....it is the assertions that my description is inaccurate that is a bit over the top. I will offer you the same as I did John and Ken. If you want to schedule a flight and come train you are welcome...may help answer your questions.
> 
> 
> I don't believe in "luck"...
> ...


OMG. All I asked for was more clarification.  I didn't see angles. Period. So sue me.


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

Here is water blind one run in reverse from the small pond...may help some understand the blind better.

This was taken in 2008 so the banks are bare...the work on that side of the pond had just been done.


If one glances to the right of the big pond at the first big point up in the pine trees that is where the line was for blind two. 














> All I asked for was more clarification.  I didn't see angles.


Don't know if this helps but if you can get the picture of where the line was from blind two you will see the hill the dogs had to run down on an angle to hit the cove (if they ran straight down the would have been in the middle of the pond!) and that the dike road had to be climbed on an angle (about a six foot climb from the big pond to the small pond), crossed at an angle, exited at an angle, and then the small pond crossed at an angle...all against the wind. Maybe this helps?





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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Keith Farmer said:


> Don't know what to tell you Scott...are you saying that I am lying or something? What is up with you?
> 
> 
> 
> .


Keith I just made an observation that the water on the pond looked pretty calm. I don't know where you come up with me accusing you of lying I never said the wind wasn't blowing that hard it could very well be blowing that hard on top of the hill but if the pond is in a protected area then you wouldn't feel the effects there. A little touchy aren't we.


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

I would be touchy too. The man takes the time to create a new thread with photos and instead of enjoying it some people have to question the angles, the wind, the distance, the factors, whether it is or isn't an All Age blind.

No wonder these threads are disintegrating in GDG and nonsense that isn't worth reading. The people that most of us could learn from probably are thinking that it's a waste of time to bother posting here when anything they write gets the third degree.

I for one appreciate threads like this and I wish people would think before they start ripping it apart or getting off topic.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> Keith I just made an observation that the water on the pond looked pretty calm. I don't know where you come up with me accusing you of lying I never said the wind wasn't blowing that hard it could very well be blowing that hard on top of the hill but if the pond is in a protected area then you wouldn't feel the effects there. A little touchy aren't we.


maybe he is. first one person says it isn't an all-age blind, and then another says it doesn't look windy, then somebody else says how they have run Q blinds that were tougher.

all this and none of the folks in the cheap seats have attempted the blind. 

there is a difference between doing a blind and doing it well. i think so many handlers are conditioned to pass/ fail criteria they forget that blinds are supposed to be judged relative to the field and that if 7 or 8 dogs do it better than you, you probably ain't gonna see the water marks from the line. if even a couple do it better than you it could be a greenie.

i would enjoy judging this blind. i would definitely scent all the points every 3 dogs. there would be answers.

thanks for posting, Keith!-Paul


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

sandyg said:


> I would be touchy too. The man takes the time to create a new thread with photos and instead of enjoying it some people have to question the angles, the wind, the distance, the factors, whether it is or isn't an All Age blind.
> 
> No wonder these threads are disintegrating in GDG and nonsense that isn't worth reading. The people that most of us could learn from probably are thinking that it's a waste of time to bother posting here when anything they write gets the third degree.
> 
> I for one appreciate threads like this and I wish people would think before they start ripping it apart or getting off topic.


Well lets see I remember on another thread you giving me a hard time about my lack of punctuation. And I don't believe the topic was about that.......


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

paul young said:


> maybe he is. first one person says it isn't an all-age blind, and then another says it doesn't look windy, then somebody else says how they have run Q blinds that were tougher.
> 
> all this and none of the folks in the cheap seats have attempted the blind.
> 
> ...


Exactly Paul. And if those 7 or 8 dogs hack it up and butcher it like a senior level dog they still advance because they did it better. FT's are relative the field....

/Paul


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Scott Parker said:


> I believe you can learn something even from someone who only has a JH dog it maybe their first dog but they may be training with a very good pro and they may have been in the same situation or had the same problem that someone is posting about and their just passing on the advice the pro gave them I know I've learned things from people that were just starting out but had read a different book or watched a training DVD that I hadn't seen that had a different way of doing something that was better then the way I was doing it so I always listen to what others have to say and then use some common sense to decide whether it's good advice or not.





sandyg said:


> This has to be the longest sentence on RTF!





Scott Parker said:


> This is a perfect example! There are some people that have to criticizes your post even if it's only for punctuation or lack of.:razz:


Now who's touchy!


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

sandyg said:


> I would be touchy too. The man takes the time to create a new thread with photos and instead of enjoying it some people have to question the angles, the wind, the distance, the factors, whether it is or isn't an All Age blind.
> 
> No wonder these threads are disintegrating in GDG and nonsense that isn't worth reading. The people that most of us could learn from probably are thinking that it's a waste of time to bother posting here when anything they write gets the third degree.
> 
> I for one appreciate threads like this and I wish people would think before they start ripping it apart or getting off topic.


You have got to be kidding me. No one is allowed to question what anyone else posts? If anyone else happens to have experience with what constitutes an all-age blind and they question the validity of what someone else who may or may not know and situations they claim are is questioned, that is making the forum a waste of time?

Nice water. Great water blind set ups depending on what level your dog is running. But all-age. Not. Why is that so offensive to people to hear?


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Sandy I wasn't getting off topic I asked a question about the wind if you have a 20 to 30 mph cross wind it would make that blind much more difficult then running it with just a light breeze. I would much rather run a long blind with no wind then a shorter one with a strong wind so if the wind at the pond level was that strong then that would make these blinds more difficult then people think that's why I asked about the wind.


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Melanie Foster said:


> You have got to be kidding me. No one is allowed to question what anyone else posts? If anyone else happens to have experience with what constitutes an all-age blind and they question the validity of what someone else who may or may not know and situations they claim are is questioned, that is making the forum a waste of time?
> 
> Nice water. Great water blind set ups depending on what level your dog is running. But all-age. Not. Why is that so offensive to people to hear?


I don't know you but I can read your attitude like a book. I know what the tone of any of your posts are going to be before I even read them.

Why does anyone have to question what he wrote? Why does the fact that he thinks it's an all-age blind incense you so? If you disagree then show us what an all-age blind looks like. Take the time to create an informative post like he did and stop with the needless criticism.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> You have got to be kidding me. No one is allowed to question what anyone else posts? If anyone else happens to have experience with what constitutes an all-age blind and they question the validity of what someone else who may or may not know and situations they claim are is questioned, that is making the forum a waste of time?
> 
> Nice water. Great water blind set ups depending on what level your dog is running.* But all-age. Not*. Why is that so offensive to people to hear?


You obviously have a set of qualifying criteria in mind....criteria without which a blind cannot be construed as being an AA blind.

Perhaps you might share it with the group.

john


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## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

There can be a lot of hidden undertones after years of peoples questions and ridicule and now the reputation has been set. I guess now the cake has been made and sometimes you have to eat it too.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

sandyg said:


> I don't know you but I can read your attitude like a book. I know what the tone of any of your posts are going to be before I even read them.
> 
> Why does anyone have to question what he wrote? Why does the fact that he thinks it's an all-age blind incense you so? If you disagree then show us what an all-age blind looks like. Take the time to create an informative post like he did and stop with the needless criticism.


May be an all age blind where he lives. I can tell you the all age blinds setup on Jack Volsteads place look to have a bit more meat to them...

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You obviously have a set of qualifying criteria in mind....criteria without which a blind cannot be construed as being an AA blind.
> 
> Perhaps you might share it with the group.
> 
> john


John I'd love too. But my iphone doesn't take pictures well enough to see the end of an all age blind around here. 

I am not a photographer....i merely train retrievers to pick up stuff and test them every weekend on weekend.....

/paul


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

I think if the op is satisfied that is an AA blind then good for him. For that matter anyone who may be running against me should feel free to train at that level.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Keith, wasn't trying to insult your blinds when I said I'd like to see that first one in a qual. There is likely more than meets the eye from the photo. Just apears a little more wide open than what I'm used to seeing. Keeping them off the last point and across without losing them behind that point and into the cove would be the biggest challenge, I'm guessing. Now you've likely run every angle possible on those grounds at some point. Not knowing how high the banks are and for how long the dog would be out of site after re-entries, would this also be a doable blind from there? What is the distance to that causeway?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> John I'd love too. But my iphone doesn't take pictures well enough to see the end of an all age blind around here.
> 
> I am not a photographer....i merely train retrievers to pick up stuff and test them every weekend on weekend.....
> 
> /paul


I for one do not need a picture . A written discription will work........

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Keith, wasn't trying to insult your blinds when I said I'd like to see that first one in a qual. There is likely more than meets the eye from the photo. Just apears a little more wide open than what I'm used to seeing. Keeping them off the last point and across without losing them behind that point and into the cove would be the biggest challenge, I'm guessing. Now you've likely run every angle possible on those grounds at some point. Not knowing how high the banks are and for how long the dog would be out of site after re-entries, would this also be a doable blind from there? What is the distance to that causeway?


I'm not particularly fond of that 35 or 40 yds of running water with the line to the blind one step to the right of the shore line, this for all intents and purposes makes this a one sided blind.How would you score the dog that goes fat by a few yds ? What about the one that gets up on the land the same distance

john


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

john fallon said:


> I'm not particularly fond of that 35 or 40 yds of running water with the line to the blind one step to the right of the shore line, this for all intents and purposes makes this a one sided blind.How would you score the dog that goes fat by a few yds ? What about the one that gets up on the land the same distance
> 
> john


I don't know, John, I'm asking. I haven't run or watched much yet but what I have run some has been pretty cheaty, narrow slices of water, sharp angles, hugging just offshore, barely touching some points, not touching others, dogs not visible for periods of time after re-entries. So that's the kind of things we do in training.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Some other ways I'd maybe run my dog, pending on how the land actually is, high enough where the handler is to see the dog, etc. It's hard to be totally on with a flat photo, but the general ideas anyway.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Keith,
Thanks for posting the pictures of your training. I love looking at what others do. I post sometimes but find it hard to shoot pictures as of late. The discussions we can have about the set ups can be beneficial. I'm sorry some always think that they're bike is better, seems threads all the time result in downgrading somebody. Please continue uploading your photos and I'll try to do some as well.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2012)

john fallon said:


> What about the one that gets up on the land the same distance


I would most likely pull out a shot gun and shoot it. Now before you all going ballistic on me, I didn't say I would kill it. It would get a second chance should it be a minor offense.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Who cares what someone calls it? With a longer entry and the right kind of wind that could be a very challenging blind. I'd venture a guess that a majority of those questioning the difficulty of this blind don't have a dog who could complete it.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Keith Thank you for posting these pics. I KNOW your training works as David Cruz's dog Lola was started there and placed 2nd in a Q already. ...


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> I would most likely pull out a shot gun and shoot it. Now before you all going ballistic on me, I didn't say I would kill it. It would get a second chance should it be a minor offense.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I'm just jealous that I dont have a dog that I could confidently step up and run ANY of the blinds pictured.

I STILLLLL have a crush on Melanie!


Gooser


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> Thanks for your response Keith, but I'm still not seeing it. Geography does not add angles. Factors do.


I don't think I've ever gone on record before about agreeing with Melanie on anything. But I do on this issue.


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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

I think you are correct Charles....

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## Keith Farmer (Feb 8, 2003)

Hey Greg,

Probably the most absurd thing I have read in a while is "geography does not add angles" that is purely laughable.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

greg magee said:


> I don't think I've *ever gone on record *before about agreeing with Melanie on anything. But I do on this issue.


You should have kept your streak intact

john


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Charles C. said:


> Who cares what someone calls it? With a longer entry and the right kind of wind that could be a very challenging blind. I'd venture a guess that a majority of those questioning the difficulty of this blind don't have a dog who could complete it.


I'd sure like to see if I could get that weirdo of mine to do it. She might no go me & drop a deuce on the mat. :neutral::neutral:


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2012)

Keith Farmer said:


> Hey Greg,
> 
> Probably the most absurd thing I have read in a while is "geography does not add angles" that is purely laughable.


Does geography set up angles? I could have sworn I heard that was the job of the trainer/handler? 

Why the defensiveness? We're all friends here.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I'd sure like to see if I could get that weirdo of mine to do it. She might no go me & drop a deuce on the mat. :neutral::neutral:


U said drop a deuce! Hahaha


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## duxbac (Apr 22, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Great question. And it depends on what you mean by young dogs and to what level you want to take them.
> 
> Personally, we would rarely break blinds like this down into sections. We would have introduced going over points and swimming by points in a very simple setting and would not combine both until dogs understood that both are perfectly acceptable...and expected.
> 
> That being said, let's say the blinds pictured were marks. There is a definite possibility we would start closer up then add each additional challenge until we were back at what is shown here as the initial line from where the dog would be sent. Handling could/would still be involved.


Thanks Melanie---My dog is 14 months old and it would be a real "hacked-up blind" to get her there at this point. Not a lot of water work since the water is pretty "stiff" here in Ontario. Hey,....I just realized ...My dogs can walk on water. 
Anyway I get it start simple and progress to this. 
Thanks


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2012)

duxbac said:


> Thanks Melanie---My dog is 14 months old and it would be a real "hacked-up blind" to get her there at this point. Not a lot of water work since the water is pretty "stiff" here in Ontario. Hey,....I just realized ...My dogs can walk on water.
> Anyway I get it start simple and progress to this.
> Thanks


Oh my gosh, so glad you asked then. It would more than a hacked up job to get her to something like this at this point. Sometimes it looks so tempting you think, "well my dog could do that." 

Please please break down into pieces. Sooooo many baby steps along the way. PM if you want and I will refer to you some resources and will not try to sell you anything along the way.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I'm not particularly fond of that 35 or 40 yds of running water with the line to the blind one step to the right of the shore line,


If you don't train on blinds like this you'll be toast when a judge sets it up. I train to hard to give up on a blind before I've run it. I don't say, "Euuu, I don't like that kind of blind." I work to teach and train my dog to do that kind of blind.

This could be a long tough blind ending with a, "NO!!! HERE!!!" if your dog turns left kinda sloppily, doesn't take a cast into the water into the wind, has problems on shallow angle re-entries, and you can't cast him off a far point and have swim across water. This is a nice blind, assuming you can move to the right an up some so you can see them off that last land before the dike. Even if you can't see them off that last land it makes it still could be a training blind as you can use attrition when they wind up at the wrong place after you cast them to a different place. Not ideal though but the early part might make the back part worthwhile. I'd hate to end the blind and stop them on that last point with water in sight right in front of them.

In order to get your dog to this level you have to run lots of water blinds. Work hard on angle entries and casting into the wind.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

The set up shows some wonderfull water with many places to set blinds and marks. You have access to some water many of us dream of.
The all age sets up will prove challlenging. A set up I see a being a big challenge would be to give the dog happy feet for some distance along the left bank and then ask the dog to get in the water after what I am guessing is 40 -50 yards of being on solid footing.
Well done on you for sharing.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> *If you don't train on blinds like this you'll be toast when a judge sets it up. I train to hard to give up on a blind before I've run it. I don't say, "Euuu, I don't like that kind of blind." I work to teach and train my dog to do that kind of blind.*This could be a long tough blind ending with a, "NO!!! HERE!!!" if your dog turns left kinda sloppily, doesn't take a cast into the water into the wind, has problems on shallow angle re-entries, and you can't cast him off a far point and have swim across water. This is a nice blind, assuming you can move to the right an up some so you can see them off that last land before the dike. Even if you can't see them off that last land it makes it still could be a training blind as you can use attrition when they wind up at the wrong place after you cast them to a different place. Not ideal though but the early part might make the back part worthwhile. I'd hate to end the blind and stop them on that last point with water in sight right in front of them.
> 
> john
> 
> In order to get your dog to this level you have to run lots of water blinds. Work hard on angle entries and casting into the wind.


The fact of the matter remains that for those 40 yds it is a one sided blind and the shore is out of bounds, whereas two yards to the right in swimming water is *NOT*, and that is where the prudent handler has his dog. 

The fact that in places such as that water beyond last point ,no matter where you position yourself, you can't see your dog to cast it, or for the 40 yds of running water along the shore line the dog can't even hear the whistle to stop even though the dog is on line, does not stop some, maybe even yourself, from setting this kind of _stuff_ up to TEST.

So I also train on this stuff(sh1t), as well as getting the "drop dead" point on the way to the blind...you know, the places where the "fairway to the blind" narrows from what is reasonable perhaps(10/15 yds) at a couple of hundred yds out, to some times the with of a dinner plate . 

The fact that some set this kind of _stuff_ up does not make it a good blind and definitely does NOT make it right.


You can't legislate common sense regards

john


----------



## duxbac (Apr 22, 2009)

john fallon said:


> The fact of the matter remains that for those 40 yds it is a one sided blind and the shore is out of bounds, whereas two yards to the right in swimming water is *NOT*, and that is where the prudent handler has his dog.
> 
> The fact that in places such as that water beyond last point ,no matter where you position yourself, you can't see your dog to cast it, or for the 40 yds of running water along the shore line the dog can't even hear the whistle to stop even though the dog is on line, does not stop some, maybe even yourself, from setting this kind of _stuff_ up to TEST.
> 
> ...


John you seem like a pretty opinionated fellow. Can you post a picture of your All Age Water blind to show your point


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## Jim Harvey (Feb 7, 2007)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I'd sure like to see if I could get that weirdo of mine to do it. She might no go me & drop a deuce on the mat. :neutral::neutral:


Hey my friend, "That weirdo of yours, sure didn't drop a deuce on you last weekend!" 

Now, did she? 

I hope you are enjoying that nice big fat red ribbon of yours.


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## drbobsd (Feb 21, 2004)

Keith Farmer said:


> Here is water blind one run in reverse from the small pond...may help some understand the blind better.
> 
> This was taken in 2008 so the banks are bare...the work on that side of the pond had just been done.
> 
> ...


Would this poss be a good Amat WB? Line to right of dead tree in 1rst body of water. A dry pop up in the trees to right of last bay.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

drbobsd said:


> Would this poss be a good Amat WB? Line to right of dead tree in 1rst body of water. A dry pop up in the trees to right of last bay.


That looks interesting too, easy to lose them to the right.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Jim Harvey said:


> Hey my friend, "That weirdo of yours, sure didn't drop a deuce on you last weekend!"
> 
> Now, did she?
> 
> I hope you are enjoying that nice big fat red ribbon of yours.


LOL. That's soooo last weekend. ;-);-)

You're right though, Mr. Jim. She didn't. We will see how things play out the next 2 weekends. 

I'll pick up that ribbon & hopefully another one the Friday after next. Looking forward to running her @ Acadiana. Just hope I don't screw up too bad. One thing to have me as an owner, but even worse to have me as a handler.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> The fact of the matter remains that for those 40 yds it is a one sided blind and the shore is out of bounds, whereas two yards to the right in swimming water is *NOT*, and that is where the prudent handler has his dog.
> 
> The fact that in places such as that water beyond last point ,no matter where you position yourself, you can't see your dog to cast it, or for the 40 yds of running water along the shore line the dog can't even hear the whistle to stop even though the dog is on line, does not stop some, maybe even yourself, from setting this kind of _stuff_ up to TEST.
> 
> ...


You and I have a major difference of opinion. I work hard to have control of my dogs. In a trial I'm going to want to show the judges this control . A dog that misses an obstacle by 10 or 15 yards has not done the same blind as the dog who was put on the obstacle and then been successfully cast off that obstacle and continued to do the blind. I don't hate that kind of blind. It's what I see and train for.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> You and I have a major difference of opinion. I work hard to have control of my dogs. In a trial I'm going to want to show the judges this control . A dog that misses an obstacle by 10 or 15 yards has not done the same blind as the dog who was put on the obstacle and then been successfully cast off that obstacle and continued to do the blind. I don't hate that kind of blind. It's what I see and train for.


I am with Howard.

Moreover, I do not believe that the corridor to the blind needs to have the same amount of space on each side of the ideal line.

Finally, in the Open, I think that a handler who avoids the hazard (dirt) by putting his dog out to sea, will likely be dropped.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

I have never hear the term "one sided blind" but often look at blinds and can see they favor a right turning dog or a left turning dog. Is that what you were referring to?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I am with Howard.
> 
> Moreover, I do not believe that the corridor to the blind needs to have the same amount of space on each side of the ideal line.
> 
> Finally, in the Open, I think that a handler who avoids the hazard (dirt) by putting his dog out to sea, will likely be dropped.


Why shouldn't the the outside limits of the corridor be be equidistant from the center line which after all is the shortest distance to the blind? Why in your opinion should this this vasilate throughout the entire length of the blind so that sometimes it has a wider right side and sometimes it is wider on the left

How far off line is out to sea ?

Why don't we just shoot a laser line down the center of the blind and when ever the dog gets outside a certain number of feet from the true line to the blind, no matter where it is relative to the length of the distance to the bird is would be dropped?

john


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Why shouldn't the the outside limits of the corridor be be equidistant from the center line which after all is the shortest distance to the blind? Why in your opinion should this this vasilate throughout the entire length of the blind so that sometimes it has a wider right side and sometimes it is wider on the left
> 
> How far off line is out to sea ?
> 
> ...



John, my take on AA blinds when I have been lucky enough to run them was to listen to what THAT judge wanted. If the judge wanted you to touch that point, or miss this point.. I did my best to do that. Not all blinds are created equal and we have to run them to suit that particular set of judges. Field trials aren't perfect, you already know that. Run the blind if it's in front of you.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> You and I have a major difference of opinion. I work hard to have control of my dogs. In a trial I'm going to want to show the judges this control . _A dog that misses an obstacle by 10 or 15 yards has not done the same blind as the dog who was put on the obstacle and then been successfully cast off that obstacle and continued to do the blind_. I don't hate that kind of blind. It's what I see and train for.


I said that the fairway might reasonably be 10 or 15 yd wide at 250 yd out
that makes it 5 to 7.5 yd wide on either side of the center line. 

Let us say that you have worked hard and had your dog on a very good line to the blind when compaired to the rest of the work of the field.But ,as luck would have it, somehow you missed the keyhole but stayed in the normal fairway width.

Another dog ran a blind that was not as good as your dogs over the entire length of the blind, but somehow it managed to GET the Keyhole.

Should that one point on the entire blind be the deciding factor ?

john


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> I am with Howard.
> 
> Moreover, I do not believe that the corridor to the blind needs to have the same amount of space on each side of the ideal line.
> 
> Finally, in the Open, I think that a handler who avoids the hazard (dirt) by putting his dog out to sea, will likely be dropped.


Do you fellows call that challenge the blind??? Keeping the dog on the corridor!!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> John, my take on AA blinds when I have been lucky enough to run them was to listen to what THAT judge wanted. If the judge wanted you to touch that point, or miss this point.. I did my best to do that. Not all blinds are created equal and we have to run them to suit that particular set of judges. Field trials aren't perfect, you already know that. Run the blind if it's in front of you.


I ran an AA blind in a field with a stream meandering down through it. You had to get your dog in the stream 8 times to line the blind . TOUGH BLIND , but nothing wrong with it my estimation. 

What would be wrong is if you only had to get in the stream one time and no matter what the rest of your blind was like, you were dropped if you did not .

john


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I said that the fairway might reasonably be 10 or 15 yd wide at 250 yd out
> that makes it 5 to 7.5 yd wide on either side of the center line.
> 
> Let us say that you have worked hard and had your dog on a very good line to the blind when compaired to the rest of the work of the field.But ,as luck would have it, somehow you missed the keyhole but stayed in the normal fairway width.
> ...


It sure can be!!!! If you miss a factor, you've just given the judges a reason to drop you. ;-)


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

john fallon said:


> I ran an AA blind in a field with a stream meandering down through it. You had to get your dog in the stream 8 times to line the blind . TOUGH BLIND , but nothing wrong with it my estimation.
> 
> What would be wrong is if you only had to get in the stream one time and no matter what the rest of your blind was like, you were dropped if you did not .
> 
> john


John I don't necessarily disagree with you. Just saying I ask the judges and if your dog is to stay wet I'm gonna try my best doing so. Right or wrong doesn't apply, doing what the judges want is what I'll shoot for.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> How far off line is out to sea ?


Depends on the judge. This topic will be the subject of a future Judges' Corner in the Retriever News.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Most judges will not tell you what they want, ie, on the point, 5 ft from shore. Doing so can some times back them into a corner. "theres the blind, have at it"



JeffLusk said:


> John I don't necessarily disagree with you. Just saying I ask the judges and if your dog is to stay wet I'm gonna try my best doing so. Right or wrong doesn't apply, doing what the judges want is what I'll shoot for.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Depends on the judge. This topic will be the subject of a future Judges' Corner in the Retriever News.


A worthwhile topic to be sure....we can wait till then on that one.

But this excentric cartway width thing..... since there is no plans to discuss that soon in the RFTN


> Moreover, I do not believe that the corridor to the blind needs to have the same amount of space on each side of the ideal line.


I'd like to hear a little more about that now

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I'd like to hear a little more about that now
> 
> john


Well, that will not come from me. Perhaps someone else will indulge you. I will not.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Moreover, I do not believe that the corridor to the blind needs to have the same amount of space on each side of the ideal line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't say that I blame you, a plausible reconciliation of that premise and conventional wisdom would be difficult.

john


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I can't say that I blame you, a plausible reconciliation of that premise and conventional wisdom would be difficult.
> 
> john


Hypothetical judging with perfect grounds meets real life judging on grounds somewhat less than perfect. The reality is (on a water blind) wet is usually better than dry but only to a point, sometimes too wet is just as bad as dry and for that there is no "reconciliation".


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> Hypothetical judging with perfect grounds meets real life judging on grounds somewhat less than perfect. The reality is (on a water blind) wet is usually better than dry but only to a point, sometimes too wet is just as bad as dry and for that there is no "reconciliation".


I beg to differ.....

The problem under discussion here normally lies, not in the perfection or imperfection of the allotted grounds per se , but in the proposed ambiguity of corridor for the the selected line to the blind, and for that there is a "reconciliation".

john


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

What 's so mysterious about running your dog directly at the blind?????
My thoughts:
Skinny water blind (tight to shoreline), Out to sea= If I give my dog a cast toward land, I'll never get them back in the water. 
Man/Woman Up, and show that your dog will handle
Diversion on land would enhance this. 

Challenge the line, handle when and if your dog varies off line.= a blind retrieve.
This must be done with momentum, crispness and style. = pleasing and passing.
The flip side will be: Cast refusals, Excessive whistles, and No here.
Or two - four whistles, then wondering why you weren't called back ( 
Nice blind, but not the one the judges set up!

Ending with "Thank you Judges" win or lose.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Malcolm said:


> The flip side will be: Cast refusals, Excessive whistles, and *No here.
> Or two* - four whistles, then wondering why you weren't called back (
> Nice blind, but not the one the judges set up!
> 
> Ending with "Thank you Judges" win or lose.



If I used a "no here" on a water blind, I would get into my truck and head for home without waiting for callbacks.

Last fall I did a little "tweet tweet" when my dog was maybe a foot or two in front of the bird, so I had to stop him and give another cast. I misjudged the bird and almost left without waiting. But I was called back and got an RJ. Thank Heaven for forgiving judges...


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I beg to differ.....
> 
> The problem under discussion here normally lies, not in the perfection or imperfection of the allotted grounds per se , but in the proposed ambiguity of corridor for the the selected line to the blind, and for that there is a "reconciliation".
> 
> john


A search of the AKC Judge's Directory has provided me with all of the information needed to terminate any further discussion of this topic with you.


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## webfootkennel of IL (Sep 22, 2005)

Keith: thanks for continuing to post your set-ups. Nice of you to share 
Mitch


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Well, that's it then. After reading these posts I don't think I could "thread the needle", let along get my dog to do it. I guess I'll stick to hunt tests, they seem to be more fun than field trials. At least that's the impression I get from this thread.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

sandyg said:


> Well, that's it then. After reading these posts I don't think I could "thread the needle", let along get my dog to do it. I guess I'll stick to hunt tests, they seem to be more fun than field trials. At least that's the impression I get from this thread.


It would be just as frustrating to run hunt tests with a dog that was not trained to the level required.;-) 

Once I have a dog that can "thread the needle", I get great satisfaction from being able to do it at a trial. Even if I only end up with a "lousy" green ribbon.  

And there is nothing like the feeling you get from bringing home the blue!!!!!!


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

sandyg said:


> Well, that's it then. After reading these posts I don't think I could "thread the needle", let along get my dog to do it. I guess I'll stick to hunt tests, they seem to be more fun than field trials. At least that's the impression I get from this thread.


Don't view it as threading the needle. View it as challenging the line.
Raise your standard, and you be will surprised at what your dog can do.

Your basically training a dog to to hold its line for an extended period of time.
Teach the pup to expect the bird to be at the end of the field, or at the otherside of the water. Its the same blind you should see in a MH, except longer.

Simple when you think about it. ))
Ft's are a blast!!! You eye's are opened to what is possible.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Malcolm said:


> Ft's are a blast!!! You eye's are opened to what is possible.


I agree. I love running both, but FT's really open your eyes to as what these animals can do! After having a dog that can compete in AA stakes, running a MH is really fun!!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> A search of the AKC Judge's Directory has provided me with all of the information needed to terminate any further discussion of this topic with you.


No Ed, what caused you to bow out of the discussion after poking your nose in, was your inability to garner and present enough/any plausible arguments for your position to prevail.

Your position that judges must resort to unreasonably demanding blinds such as very tight to the line one sided blinds, or similarly tight key hole blinds, blinds where the dog is out of sight for an extended period of time or even for a lesser period at critical junctures, along with blinds using expanses of running water where the dog cannot hear the whistle blinds, or blinds where the dog has poor visibility of the handler yada, yada, yada will be tough to find an argument to sustain it.

If that is not your position then you should either have not commented or simply
said I agree with John

Don't try to make the understanding of these things something it is not. It is not rocket surgery or brain science..."It is dogs picking up stuff...or not''(LVL I think)
john


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

sandyg said:


> Well, that's it then. After reading these posts I don't think I could "thread the needle", let along get my dog to do it. I guess I'll stick to hunt tests, they seem to be more fun than field trials. At least that's the impression I get from this thread.


i hate to burst your comfort bubble, but i have seen HT blinds that were judged much more harshly than some FT blinds. go figure. lot's of subjectivity when it comes to judging blinds.-Paul


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> No Ed, what caused you to bow out of the discussion after poking your nose in, was your inability to garner and present enough/any plausible arguments


What caused me to ignore the bait and do what you love best?

1. The 2 people you had most issue with are Howard and Ted. When reviewing amateurs who have qualified dogs for Nationals in the last decade I see their names frequently, but, correct me if I am wrong, I have never seen your name, not a single time.

2. When reviewing your history as a field trial judge I discovered that all your bluster notwithstanding, you are not even an 8 point judge, you have not judged an all age stake in almost 2 years, and you have never judged an open away from your home circuit. 

For those points I consider your blabberings inconsequential and unworthy of debate.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> What caused me to ignore the bait and do what you love best?
> 
> 1. The 2 people you had most issue with are Howard and Ted. When reviewing amateurs who have qualified dogs for Nationals in the last decade I see their names frequently, but, correct me if I am wrong, I have never seen your name, not a single time.
> 
> ...




So, as I read this last post I see a few more untenable positions taken by you that I for one would like you to explain to those reading this thread.

1. Qualifying for a National is a prerequisite for knowing what are good/bad parameters for setting up an AA water blind. A logical progression would be these persons are not fit to judge an AA stake

2. Despite what the rules say*, A person with 8 minor stake judging points and seven majors ...a person that AKC says can carry a Judge with 1 AA point and judge an Open, does not have enough stature in your world, to, form and hold an opinion that is contrary to someones that has qualified for a National and is, by virtue of this inability, unfit to judge an AA stake.

That rational sir, would shrink the judging pool considerably.

You are now in up to your neck, perhaps you should stop digging.


john

BTW this is what the rules say. Take note thatqualifying for the National is not mentioned.

*No person who has not previously judged an all-age stake shall be approved to judge a stake carrying championship points unless that person has satisfied at least one of the following requirements: (a) completion of two assignments as an Apprentice Judge; or (b) completion of one assignment as an Apprentice Judge and experience as the judge of two, or more, minor stakes; or (c) experience as the handler of a dog in fifteen or more all-age stakes in the previous three years resulting in the award of a judges’ award of merit or a place in, at least, one such stake

__________________


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2012)

Please don't be mean.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> Please don't be mean.


"like"

oh wait.. is this facebook??


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Please don't be mean.


One does not have to be mean, that has and can articulate a viable position.;-)

john


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

This is a follow up to what Ed just wrote: I think it would be beneficial to have an actual, factual resume on those who offer opinions which are demeaningly critical, and definitely for those which are mean spirited. Constructive criticism is always acceptable and can lead to valuable exchanges.

This does not mean that each and every one of us cannot have an opinion. Nor does it mean that an opinion not backed by experience is lacking in value. It just puts that opinion a little more into perspective.

Locally, we had a soldier who was being lauded for his heroism and accomplishments while serving for our country. Then it was discovered that he had bought his medals and his service consisted of a desk job far from the trenches.

Glenda Brown


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

JeffLusk said:


> "like"
> 
> oh wait.. is this facebook??


I just unfriended you. Too many status updates. No hard feelings?


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I just unfriended you. Too many status updates. No hard feelings?


You've just been poked.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You are now in up to your neck, perhaps you should stop digging.
> john


Perhaps you should identify your own position, I know that you crave the last post on this topic and almost everyone you post on but I am far from "up to my neck" in anything regarding judging.

Keep digging John, you continue to be your worst enemy.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Glenda Brown said:


> This is a follow up to what Ed just wrote: I think it would be beneficial to have an actual, factual resume on those who offer opinions which are demeaningly critical, and definitely for those which are mean spirited. Constructive criticism is always acceptable and can lead to valuable exchanges.
> 
> This does not mean that each and every one of us cannot have an opinion. Nor does it mean that an opinion not backed by experience is lacking in value. It just puts that opinion a little more into perspective.
> 
> ...




Is there an analogy to be drawn from your last paragraph.?

If you will, Give us your thoughts on the judging parameters of an AA water
blind.

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> Perhaps you should identify your own position, .



I am against this......http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=915348&postcount=99


john


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

john fallon said:


> Is there an analogy to be drawn from your last paragraph.?
> 
> If you will, Give us your thoughts on the judging parameters of an AA water
> blind.
> ...


Well, John...what happen to the subject of this thread? ..and by the way...you have picked the right person to ask for her thoughts, because you will get nothing but quality in response...if there is a response. 

The route this well intentioned thread has taken...is so disappointing. Was hoping to come back to reading interesting training tips with photos of great technical land/water this evening. 

Signing off regards, 

Judy


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Please don't be mean.


I may have to use this one as my signature it is so ironic!!


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> Well, John...what happen to the subject of this thread? ..and by the way...you have picked the right person to ask for her thoughts, because you will get nothing but quality in response...if there is a response.
> 
> The route this well intentioned thread has taken...is so disappointing. Was hoping to come back to reading interesting training tips with photos of great technical land/water this evening.
> 
> ...


Judy, 
With close to 6000 hits, the thread is still on topic sans pictures. 

Keith posted what he considered an to be AA blind . Others took issue with his post stating that it it lacked the parameters of an AA blind . 

Kim posted an alternative, showing a blind through the running water in close proximity to the shore. 

I stated that I was not particularly fond of one sided blinds. 
Howard said that I better train on them because they were a fact of life. I responded that while I did not like them, I none the less trained on them. 

The thread then took a turn to the discussion of what I view as some other poor concepts in the setting up of AA blinds. Ted came to the defence of these concepts. The pros and cons of these concepts were then discussed for quite a few posts. 
Ted bowed out of the discussion then Ed came on for a little give and take but shortly bowed out, Only to come back with some barbs rather than rebuttals . 

Melanie posted one oh her classic one liners which was follow up with a little levity from Jeff and Jacob.
Glenda posted her thoughts. I asked her for a clarification and some topic specific information 
And shortly after that you posted........

Moving forward I would like to see some discussion of blinds that are not unreasonably demanding of the dogs, or that are ambiguous to the handler. Blinds where the dog is in sight for the entire time it is on line. 

One where the dog can hear the whistle, can see the handler when he/she is attempting to cast. one that favors neither the fast or slow dog, and so on and so fourth...........


john


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> What caused me to ignore the bait and do what you love best?


But be sure when you come to the line with your latest in a continuing string of AA competitors that you inquire of the judges what is the "Corridor" though nowhere is that shown in any of the set of rules we follow. 



Glenda Brown said:


> This is a follow up to what Ed just wrote: I think it would be beneficial to have an actual, factual resume on those who offer opinions.................... Glenda Brown


From 1965 through 2009 - A Derby lister in '99, another 1 place in the Derby in '97, a dog in '73 with no stats other than ownership. 6 total Derby placings, no AA placings - maybe spent too much time trying to find the corridor . The concern should be is of approximately 2400 judges John is somewhere in the middle as far as accomplishments, with a thought process such as he has. 

Dr Ed on the other hand - Very impressive record going back to 1967 with a dog named Shamrock Acres Comanche


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

john fallon said:


> Moving forward I would like to see some discussion of blinds that are not unreasonably demanding of the dogs, or that are ambiguous to the handler. Blinds where the dog is in sight for the entire time it is on line.
> 
> One where the dog can hear the whistle, can see the handler when he/she is attempting to cast. one that favors neither the fast or slow dog, and so on and so fourth........... john


They used to call those Picnic trials - very few clubs have those any more ;-).


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Keith Farmer said:


> Here are two all age water blinds we ran this week.
> 
> The first is 300 yards with three points to deal with...two to get on and one to stay off. There is a huge cove beyond the prominent point (to the left) that really draws the dogs in. Wind is blowing toward the left shore line at about 15-20.
> 
> ...


With a long run at the water in a 20 mph cross wind it would not take much in the way of added suction to have a difficult middle of a blind here even with the line to the blind left where it is shown.

A poison bird on that left hand stretch of shoreline would do handily in that regard
Put the bird up toward the tree line, I don't know how thick that wall of cover is that is directly on the line halfway up the hill on the far side of the pond, but it looks fairly substantial. Look for some dogs to flair it down wind to the left.... getting the wet dog back on line in a 20 mph crosswind might take some doing . I would expect this blind with this minor modification to get some answers


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I have always thought it a little silly that a dog can be a couple feet off the laser line to the blind, touch the point, and be out but be several more feet off the line to the water side and win. 

Nevertheless, I think I see Ted's point though about the acceptable corridor not always having to be symmetrical. Say you want to see a handler demonstrate control in spite of a very attractive factor, like a scented point sucking a dog in. While the dog is out to sea, x yards either side of the line is cool but giving in to the factor and getting out, even though that is less than x yards off line, shows a lack of control. I am not sure that is what Ted meant, but I can certainly see as an example of valid reasoning behind the statement.

The reality of it is that if a judge sets up a blind that goes past a point, I am going to assume being on that point means I am not coming back to the next series and try to keep my critter off of it, regardless of what I think of what the judge set up.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

It's a shame! I for one would like to see what someone else sees as far as setups. I have been blessed to have some fantastic water to train on, whenever I have someone come train with me I ask them to set up the test, my two eyes only see what I see, I want a different prospective. That's the beauty of having training partners, I set something up today and tomorrow you set something up. It's a shame, and it's the same people day in and day out! I suggest blocking the rat pack posts, it makes for a much more pleasurable experience on the rtf, just simply block those posts.


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