# Setting Up Derby Marks



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I did not want to hijack another column on Derby Marks, so here we are

Here is a photo we used in setting up Open Marks. Again, I have not been to the field, so distances are arbitrary and for illustration purposes.

Some assumptions for illustration:
- We are pointing North, so that we have reduced sun issues
- Wind is at our back, so we have reduced wind issues
- This is our field for first and second series, so you need to leave room for two sets of marks
- We have two days and less than 30 dogs, so that time is not an issue










As a Derby judge, don't forget that your dogs are:
- Young, and full of piss and vinegar
- May have traveled one day to get to trial
- Have probably sat in truck for a day at the trial

So, when they come to the line, they want to RUN.

So, in my first series, I like:
1) Longer marks, so that the dogs can run
2) Wider marks, so that the dogs do not switch, or hunt old falls

I can't tell you how many derbies I have run where the first series was short and tight - Maddening!

I want enough difficulty to get separation.
Not so much difficulty to get elimination

If someone gets us a new photo, we can set up marks with a clean field.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I REALLY hope this thread takes off!!
I'm very interested.

Gooser


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

Gooser, call Ted lets get rolling I have a young gun that will start his derby career this spring!! We need all the help we can get!.
Dave Hare


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Regarding the 'picture' to present the dogs with, what about having the shorter of the marks be in the center, and the longer ones on the outside?
The left marks thrown to the left and the right ones thrown to the right. I know that's not very creative, but it's an idea to start with. 

Or, depending on the field factors, one of the two series could have converging marks, if it's not too tight (preferably the second series).
I have to get ready for puppy class, so I'll see what transpires after I get back in a few hours.

Debbie Tandoc


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

On 1/28 Ted started a thread entitled "Let's create an All Ageset of land marks" and this field is shown with only distances and wind marked....can someone import that picture into this thread. I am challenged enough trying to set up the marks, let alone not look at the existing set I would attempt the import; but I am as "slow as molasses in January" with that kind of stuff....the thread would be long dead before I accomplished it


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I can repost the previous Pic,, but I think Ted drew HIS suggestions for mat and HIS sugestions as to M1 and Flyer.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Codatango said:


> Regarding the 'picture' to present the dogs with, what about having the shorter of the marks be in the center, and the longer ones on the outside?
> The left marks thrown to the left and the right ones thrown to the right. I know that's not very creative, but it's an idea to start with.
> 
> Or, depending on the field factors, one of the two series could have converging marks, if it's not too tight (preferably the second series).
> ...


Debbie

Remember, we are running two sets of marks in this field.
When you set up your second series, you want to minimize suction to old marks.
The shorter you make the right bird, and the more you move it to center, the more you impact your possible area for second series land marks

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

ReedCreek said:


> On 1/28 Ted started a thread entitled "Let's create an All Ageset of land marks" and this field is shown with only distances and wind marked....can someone import that picture into this thread. I am challenged enough trying to set up the marks, let alone not look at the existing set I would attempt the import; but I am as "slow as molasses in January" with that kind of stuff....the thread would be long dead before I accomplished it


I think we need a new field and photo


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

For example, you might want to run this as a second series











Shoot M2 second. To minimize interaction of 1st series marks with M2, shoot it as a go bird. Note that if we had made our right hand mark in the first series shorter and closer to center, we would really be flirting with trouble with M2.

General thoughts about placement of guns that do not retire:
- Give the dogs plenty of room to hunt around the gunners
- Put obstacles between gun and bird (see M1)

Note: You could run these marks from Mat 1, but
- Birds would be tight
- Marks would be cross wind


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> I can repost the previous Pic,, but I think Ted drew HIS suggestions for mat and HIS sugestions as to M1 and Flyer.


Opppsss... I see that now


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

Ted looks good wide open and fair!!I like in your set up nothing conflicts!! , When you ran the derby last year is this what you would see ,or would it be a tighter set up in the first series.
Dave Hare


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

New Pic?


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Geez, I didn't even see there was already a mat and marks way off to the left! I had to scroll way to the right to get a feel for the width and my eye just caught the yardage markers on the middle and right.

I have to remember that young dogs will hunt both sides of the gun, it is likely they could get close to where a future mark and gun station is planned. 

Debbie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Let's do land before water

Here is a photo Walt gave us some time ago. Ignore his markings in red. 










Set up a first series double. Do not worry about a second series on this field. In real life, we might be able to move to the far ridge and run from there.

You will have a flyer in this set of marks.

My preferences on flyers:
- Close enough to be flyers, but not so close as make the dogs break (especially babies)
- I like 15--250
- Lots of room for birds to fly and dogs to run

We are not going to shoot a flyer out of order in the derby, so it will be shot second

We are NOT going to shoot our birds short and tight.
We are going to let the babies run and we are going to avoid - as best we can switching and hunting old falls.

We are NOT going over 400 yards.

Mat is down. Wind is at your back.

Set your marks.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

M1 thrown up hill and will have to fight the hillside to stay above the gunner. 

F2 will add enough up front to suck dogs down the hill. Flyer is shot out in the wide open and any dog that doesn't dig it out right away might turn into a monster hunt.

Also a north wind isn't my ideal wind. I'd like this test with wind blowing NW


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


>


This first series looks challenging and fair. Here are a few of the challenges I see both in the dog running it and in the judging of it. Would welcome comments as to my thinking (especially if I am seeing it incorrectly); I am learning here and am a rookie.

The memory bird is very visible and the bird lands out in the open with plenty of room to hunt around it; plus as Ted says, it allows the derby dog to get out of the truck and run. It doesn't look to me like a series that is designed to eliminated a huge amount of dogs. In trying to establish separation my question is: there appears to be a slight hill side that dogs would need to hold in order to not drop behind the gun station; the trained dog would hold the hill; however another dog, not so well trained, may not hold the hill and might end up behind the gun station and loop around to get the bird – still showing excellent natural marking ability. My question is how you would mark a dog that fell off the hillside went behind the gun and hooked to the bird as opposed to one that took a straight line directly to the bird - both could be displaying natural marking ability? Would the slight hook be an issue in separating the dogs? The flyer gun station being so visible would present a strong opportunity for head swinging and missing the memory bird.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jeff

Off to Costco with my wife. Back in two hours

Tell me what the factors are in this test
And how they work with or against your marks

Ted


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Jeff
> 
> Off to Costco with my wife. Back in two hours
> 
> ...


Ted, the flyer itself shouldn't be a tough bird for most. It has a slight slope, but at 150-200 yards I think most dogs will get this bird. The open field may let a few dogs have monster hunts, especially the younger ones that haven't figured out the game. 

The memory bird is thrown along the hillside and the dogs must fight the hill to stay above the gunner. The flyer shorter will add a little bit of suction for the dogs and pull them down to backside. I left the mark short enough to leave room to run past the gun and get out of the AOF. I'm not sure if that is snow??? Either way I don't think most dogs will care about it too much.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jeff

When you throw a bird downhill, it will land farther from the gun
Than if you throw uphill. 

To maximize distance of your flyer shoot it downhill


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> For example, you might want to run this as a second series


Ted,

My only concern with series #2 is the road behind M1. Young Derby dogs with run in them could easily run over the bird at M1 and end up on the road. If you stick with placing the M1 mark where it is shown, I would have traffic control on the road.

Helen


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think a dog would have to mark G1 to get it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

ReedCreek said:


> In trying to establish separation my question is: there appears to be a slight hill side that dogs would need to hold in order to not drop behind the gun station; the trained dog would hold the hill; however another dog, not so well trained, may not hold the hill and might end up behind the gun station and loop around to get the bird – still showing excellent natural marking ability. My question is how you would mark a dog that fell off the hillside went behind the gun and hooked to the bird as opposed to one that took a straight line directly to the bird - both could be displaying natural marking ability? Would the slight hook be an issue in separating the dogs? .


I would not care about the hook. Many judges would.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have the same question for you, John, as I had for Jeff

What are the factors in this field that will influence a dog's path?

Ted


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think the terrain in Mr Lashes example pulls the dog to run at the guns on both marks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I think the terrain in Mr Lashes example pulls the dog to run at the guns on both marks.


Ok, but why? 
What are the factors at work?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

the downward slope of the hills.

dogs would tend to run downhill istead of fighting that tendency and run a straight line to the bird.

the factor is a sidehill for left hand mark,, and the factor for right hand mark is the valley at the bottom of the hill. I think dogs would get sucked into hunting that vally behind gun.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> the downward slope of the hills.
> 
> dogs would tend to run downhill istead of fighting that tendency and run a straight line to the bird.
> 
> the factor is a sidehill for left hand mark,, and the factor for right hand mark is the valley at the bottom of the hill. I think dogs would get sucked into hunting that vally behind gun.


Ok

To be more specific
1) Dogs tend to run at the gunner
2) Dogs tend to run uphill or downhill, not along a side hill

Anything else?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I think the terrain in Mr Lashes example pulls the dog to run at the guns on both marks.


Focus on the left hand bird.

What are the factors at play here?
- Slope
- Gun

What else?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

cover changes?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Terrain changes too, could be a barrier. Not to much of an angle but I think some.

Also, if we're looking at it from our height, at a dog's level it could look like it's landing the hill down there. Could have some dogs hunt short there.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Yes, cover changes

Look at image










Red Line denotes change in slope of terrain

The more changes a dog must make en route, the more likely the dog is to be diverted.

Distance works to make marks more difficult because:
1) The guns and birds are harder to see; and
2) A judge can put more factors into the test

Questions:
1) What happens if we move G1 closer to cover change at red line?
2) What happens if we move G2 deeper and to the left so that we are throwing a bird over the depression (red diagonal line)?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Terrain changes too, could be a barrier. Not to much of an angle but I think some.
> 
> Also, if we're looking at it from our height, at a dog's level it could look like it's landing the hill down there. Could have some dogs hunt short there.


I agree

Mooser 

Consider this


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If we move gun1 as you ask,, the cover change becomes more of a barrier? Dogs will tend to bounce off it (run parraell to it) instead of traversing it to the bird.

If we move gun2 as you ask,, depression becomes a barrier, and dogs will tend to stay in the bottom?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Daniels said:


> Ted,
> Do you put alot of thought into the angle you want the throws to go? It seems like the majority of derby marks are angle backs. Do you ever throw angle in's or flat throws?


I don't throw angle in.

Younger dogs, I might throw flat.

I like angle back. I think it's a harder mark.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> If we move gun1 as you ask,, the cover change becomes more of a barrier? Dogs will tend to bounce off it (run parraell to it) instead of traversing it to the bird.
> 
> If we move gun2 as you ask,, depression becomes a barrier, and dogs will tend to stay in the bottom?


Mike

I think that the more factors you have, the more difficult the mark.
I think that some dogs will hunt the guns and not drive the hill.
I think that some dogs will hunt the guns and not cross the depression.

Good dogs will find the guns.
Make it hard for them to find the bird once they find the guns.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

John Daniels said:


> Ted,
> "...It seems like the majority of derby marks are angle backs. Do you ever throw angle in's or flat throws?


I agree, it does seem to appear that many of the marks you suggest are what I would consider severe angle backs - (IMO) making it harder for the dog to see the fall. Because of the age of the "babies" I was thinking that a mark thrown where the dog could see the full arc (flat throw or not so severe a back angle) would be more in line with a derby mark and reserve the severe angle backs for the more advanced dogs.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

John Daniels said:


> Ted,
> Do you put alot of thought into the angle you want the throws to go? It seems like the majority of derby marks are angle backs. Do you ever throw angle in's or flat throws?


I can't speak for Ted. If I'm judging a derby, there will be lots of square throws. I want the dogs to see it down as far away from the guns as I can. I *HATE* angle in throws. Some dogs run by a bird and they can't hunt back to it. Some of these are hard charging energetic dogs that I want to reward with my tests.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Daniels said:


> Does the angle of your throw influence the position of your gunners?


The two work in concert


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> I can't speak for Ted. If I'm judging a derby, there will be lots of square throws. I want the dogs to see it down as far away from the guns as I can. I *HATE* angle in throws. Some dogs run by a bird and they can't hunt back to it. Some of these are hard charging energetic dogs that I want to reward with my tests.


I might throw square in my first series on land. When I get to the second land series, I am probably throwing angle back.

I have never thrown angle in. I might in the future, but I doubt it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

ReedCreek said:


> I agree, it does seem to appear that many of the marks you suggest are what I would consider severe angle backs - (IMO) making it harder for the dog to see the fall. Because of the age of the "babies" I was thinking that a mark thrown where the dog could see the full arc (flat throw or not so severe a back angle) would be more in line with a derby mark and reserve the severe angle backs for the more advanced dogs.


Patti

When you judge the "babies", you will find that the best are very sophisticated.

It is my job to make sure that the dogs see the guns and the birds.
I don't know what you call "severe" angle backs. 
I like 45 degree angle back throws. I don't think that is severe.

I think that the average derby dog will find the gun and root around.
I think that the good derby dog will set up a pretty tight hunt and maybe step on the bird.
My goal is to make it easy enough for the average dogs to find a bird and get called back, but hard enough that only a handful do the work well.

It is a difficult balancing act. I am not going to give away all of my tools by having my throws all be flat.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

What about this one ted. G1 I think I played the factors a little better than in the past. The cover up front and I remember you saying in an old thread about just skimming the factors instead of squaring them up. I wanted the flyer in a different spot, but felt it was a bit close to g1.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Daniels said:


> So do you look at the field of dogs you are judging before setting the first series? If you have a field consisting of several derby list dogs you may set your first series tougher than if you had young dogs with no previous derby placements?


No. I might consider size of field, but not the quality.

FT are a competition.

I do what I can in the derby to allow everyone to have fun, but at the end of the day, my job is to find a winner. Personally, I believe that means my tests have to have more separation than whether a dog hooked a gun, or had a tight hunt instead of stepping on a bird.

I learned a long time ago from Vickie Lamb that you can set VERY hard marks that the field can all get, but that only a few can get well.

How do you keep dogs in play?
- You do not make the marks tight. Tight marks encourage switching or hunting old falls. I don't like it in the AA stakes, I hate it in the derby.
- Again, I believe dogs find guns and find birds. 

How do you create separation?
- You NEVER give away the flyer. Shoot a gimme flyer and you are giving away 2 out of 8 birds. 
- You put as many factors in play as you can into your marks
- You make the marks long enough that you can get a variety of factors in play.

It is my preference to let everybody play for four series in the derby.
For some, that will not happen.
But, I am not giving derby points away

And I will do everything I can to make the 4th series a ball buster. 
No protecting favorites here


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jeff 

So that we have some uniformity

Use this diagram










Note:

I put the direction north in my diagrams, because I hate when I show up at a FT and the marks are thrown so that the sun prevents you or the dogs from seeing the guns or the birds

Ted


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Ted, can you move that mat? We're going to get trails in that tall grass right off the line. Smaller dogs might have trouble seeing through the top of the tall grass until the trails are made. This would give the later dogs a different test than the earlier dogs.


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

Ted and others...
This and the other threads that are similar to it have been some of the best stuff I have read on RTF.... EVER! I have tried to play but have had issues posting pics lately not sure why cause I have done it in the past....

I have learned stuff from a judge and handlers standpoint. Thanks and please keep it going...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Ted, can you move that mat? We're going to get trails in that tall grass right off the line. Smaller dogs might have trouble seeing through the top of the tall grass until the trails are made. This would give the later have a different test than the earlier dogs.


Good Point

Could not figure out how to delete Mat, so added Howard Mat

For purposes of this exercise, assume dog can see any gun or mark placed in this photo


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## John Daniels (Jan 1, 2012)

Have any of you setup a derby single? Or do you try to stay with a double so you have a extra bird to judge on?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Daniels said:


> Have any of you setup a derby single? Or do you try to stay with a double so you have a extra bird to judge on?


I don't like singles if you are limited to four series.

I want 8 birds to judge, not 7.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Considering wind.

I placed Gun 1 so throw is into wind,, Dogs must cross cover change barrier,, and may tend to fade with wind, and get behind gun.

Flyer, I placed so throw is with wind, but angled back. Dogs have to cross cover barrier right from the mat. I think young dogs will follow cover line,, that leads away from bird.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Since I got a mat named after me, I thought I should post a test. Here's a first series derby. I assumed the red wind arrow.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Considering wind.
> 
> I placed Gun 1 so throw is into wind,, Dogs must cross cover change barrier,, and may tend to fade with wind, and get behind gun.
> 
> Flyer, I placed so throw is with wind, but angled back. Dogs have to cross cover barrier right from the mat. I think young dogs will follow cover line,, that leads away from bird.


Mike

Note that dogs that fade with wind on your right hand bird will get into the scent cone of the bird


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Since I got a mat named after me, I thought I should post a test. Here's a first series derby. I assumed the red wind arrow.


And the reason for the placement of your marks?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Sorry Howard... 
I respectfully defer to Howards drawing..

Gooser


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Second series. It might be too hard, I think the cover up front for the memory bird, the slight hill and the wind will push dogs away from the memory bird. Depending on the field some will probably be back at the flyer. I originally thought of the flyer on the right, memory bird on the left and that could work if the wind isn't too strong.


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Note:
> 
> I put the direction north in my diagrams, because I hate when I show up at a FT and the marks are thrown so that the sun prevents you or the dogs from seeing the guns or the birds
> 
> Ted












M1- Angle back, thrown to the back edge of the cover, I'm thinking the dogs may not go through the slot if the gunner is in front of the slot.

F2- Appears there is a depression, gunners on near side, bird fall on far side. While the dogs may fade with the wind they also might square the depression and be upwind.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

See.. I really get confused when throwing flyers with a cross wind. (to the mat)

If you throw the flyer with the wind,, and if the dogs fades with that wind,, dog will scent it.

I thought about throwing the flyer INTO the wind,,, but usually that doesnt work out well.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Since I got a mat named after me, I thought I should post a test. Here's a first series derby. I assumed the red wind arrow.


Mine were scary close to yours.  Only difference is I'd have the flyer station a little further back. Not much difference @ all.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted

On my right hand bird. (flyer)

If the dog crosses the cover change right at the mat, but runs AT the gun,,, the dog will be upwind of the bird,, and prolly have a sizable hunt.

However if the dog crosses the cover change, and does fade with the wind a bit,, he will prolly wind the bird. (honor its nose)

If in another senario,, a dog DOESNT cross the cover change,, and it draws him away from the bird,, but eventually gets the dog downwind so he can scent it,, the dog didnt mark!!

Am I wrong?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok, here is my take on it.

Flyer, thrown with wind and hopefully rides out a way
- Dog crosses early cover line
- Dog must cross several more cover lines
- Dog may hang up around flyer guns and not drive past cover
- Red outline is where I hope dogs hunt around guns

M1, thrown into wind
- Wind is pushing dog left
- Flyer to left
- Dog squares first terrain ridge, falls to left
- Gun at base of hill
I think dogs will hunt low and not dig up the hill into the wind where they can find the bird


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Patti
> 
> When you judge the "babies", you will find that the best are very sophisticated.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ted! 

Your explanation clears it up nicely for me and a 45 degree angle back throw is not too severe. To my untrained eye with this drawing stuff, they look more severe than 45 degrees. I love your explanation of the difference between average and good.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thanks Ted

So in general,, with a cross wind,,its better to have your flyer as the most downwind bird, and throw it out of the test (WITH THE WIND)????


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

This would seem to be the tougher of the fields presented, cover and terrain changes both.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> And the reason for the placement of your marks?












I went out for a couple hours. I was wondering where this thread would have gone.

The flyer is thrown with the wind. We should get varied flyer falls, the dogs do have to cross cover and terrain changes with a little bit of side hill thrown in. I expect some to be thrown off their mark and have a hunt. 

On the long bird I expect dogs will want to run the ridge line and not go into that hole so they'd get out to the area of the fall under the arc or behind the gun either place they couldn't wind it. There's an entire hillside to hunt instead of that hole. The dogs that marked G1 would get it in short order. If the wind is stronger than I think then they'd drift with the wind to the left we'll have some wind saves. I'll live with it for the first series.


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## J.D. Penn (Feb 3, 2010)

Guys I absolutely love these threads. It's great to see the marks and explanations of them and how they work together. Also, enjoy the "newb" setups. It's always good to learn the downside of some marks. Thank you everyone.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

The marks in this land series that Ted set up appear to me to be the tougher of all the land series presented. I think the dogs could possibly get tied up in a lengthy hunt on the flyer, making M1 even more difficult to remember. For all the reasons Ted gave, M1 looks to me like it could really divide the field and get some answers. I think the average dog will, as Ted mentioned, get tied up hunting low and not push up the hill - to me that little low combined with pushing up the hill looks like a big factor. The very talented dog will have marked it and remembered it.


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## Duck Blind (Dec 11, 2010)

Ted - I started the other Derby thread....So glad you started your own. This is extremely helpful. Others have been posting water setups on my thread. I wish there was a way to combine the two. Tons of great information here. 

Brian


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

These setup discussions are the BEST. Like I said on the other thread I am a HT judge. Seeing the discussions and reasons for the different bird placements really gets me to thinking. (Which is a Good thing LOL) I wish I was computer literate enough to post what and where I would place marks. I run stuff like this in training to improve my dogs. HTers don't worry I do NOT set up this long stuff in Ht's......LOL. Ted you and Howard have always been on my "always read" list. Thanks to all who contribute to this and other very educational threads.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

From Teds "mat" a straight edge placed on the picture shows the line to the Flier to be practically right over the Flier station guns, for this reason I think the the direction of the Flier throw is too severe , I would flatten it out for a Derby mark .

The mat placement is such that on the memory bird full advantage is being taken of the contrary "grain" of the cover, this along with the direction of the wind would tend to adversely impact the line to the mark.

This is not a deal killer for me, but again... I would like to see that flier flattened out a little,

john


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

These kinds of threads are among the absolute best that RTF has to offer. I am so grateful that there are a few people out there (Ted, such as you) who take the time to post and follow them through.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> I went out for a couple hours. I was wondering where this thread would have gone.
> 
> The flyer is thrown with the wind. We should get varied flyer falls, the dogs do have to cross cover and terrain changes with a little bit of side hill thrown in. I expect some to be thrown off their mark and have a hunt.
> 
> On the long bird I expect dogs will want to run the ridge line and not go into that hole so they'd get out to the area of the fall under the arc or behind the gun either place they couldn't wind it. There's an entire hillside to hunt instead of that hole. The dogs that marked G1 would get it in short order. If the wind is stronger than I think then they'd drift with the wind to the left we'll have some wind saves. I'll live with it for the first series.


I like your memory bird better than mine, but you beat me to it

Ted


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

I like these marks. My question is this, in thinking of Ted's post of the garbage can lid reflecting factors. Does the red line I put in for G1 apply to that with the strip of cover there? If so would that then make G1 more or less desireable as a mark? Just trying to make sure that I am understanding this...


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Would this be good placement for the memory bird (thrown uphill and angle back)? I would think with the suction from the flyer, the angle of the cover the wind and the hill, everything would push him/her downhill. It may not look like it from this photo but the long gun would be near the base of the bowl.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

The setup I had in mind was Mr. Howard's memory bird and the flyer a few yards to the right (When looking @ the picture.) of Mr. Ted's flyer.

Struggling to find a decent paint app.


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

Love Handler Error's memory bird. If you have a "great" flyer shooter, then his flyer is great if the shooter can get them far enough where there is room to cut under the arc, sail with the wind and get stuck in the feathers. But, it's a lot simpler to shoot it the other way as that eliminates the risk of shooting at the other gunner and shooting flyers with the wind is better is most circumstances.

Marcy


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Eric Fryer said:


> I like these marks. My question is this, in thinking of Ted's post of the garbage can lid reflecting factors. Does the red line I put in for G1 apply to that with the strip of cover there? If so would that then make G1 more or less desireable as a mark? Just trying to make sure that I am understanding this...


Eric

I like Howard's mark because
1) You get deflection to the left at the start with tall grass
2) Dogs will square the ridge as they drop off and go left
3) Wind pushes them left
4) They may get stuck in the bottom
5) They may hunt gun

As you can see, alot of this is guesswork.

Off to do errands.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I put the memory bird about the same place as Handler error. I liked the strip of cover and the roll of the hill. I was in a hurry to start the process of drawing and posting, if you don't hurry someone else uses your marks, especially factoring in the "redo" time for errors...

After I got it done and posted I realized that the wind would give it away. I think a lot of dogs would end up behind the gun, but when contestants at a trial get a wind save they often don't see it as such.

I think it's a real good mark but maybe better for training than a trial. Best to keep marks downwind to avoid the wind saves.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Eric
> 
> I like Howard's mark because
> 1) You get deflection to the left at the start with tall grass
> ...


We've trained on a very similar terrain with a triple-basically wide open, that right mark looks easy as LBD but the dogs have to hold the hill-even with less wind it can take effort to get the mark. Dogs do not all have trouble in the same areas. It's a nice double.


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

Ted/Howard/others- A little off topic but relating to derbies nontheless. This question relates all around the availability of help when your judging so let's assume that on this day you have unlimited help. What's your thoughts on #'s of gunners in the field. Your naturally going to have at least 2 if not 3 guys wherever you place your flyer, but the memory bird gunner is typically just a one guy station. When you can, do you try to increase that number and have 2 guns out there to help that station stand out for the young dogs?


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

If a long gun is not as visible as you'd like, you can always add a stickman to that station. HPW


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Jiggy said:


> Love Handler Error's memory bird. If you have a "great" flyer shooter, then his flyer is great if the shooter can get them far enough where there is room to cut under the arc, sail with the wind and get stuck in the feathers. But, it's a lot simpler to shoot it the other way as that eliminates the risk of shooting at the other gunner and shooting flyers with the wind is better is most circumstances.
> 
> Marcy


Unless I'm interpreting the direction of the throw incorectly, it seems you're throwing your flyer into the wind which could cause some birds to hook back left and end up behind the guns or land close to the guns, causing no birds.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> this day you have unlimited help.


I've put two guns out when I've had the help. I've seen it backfire with the kids talking and generally messing around, interfering with the dogs. It hasn't happened for me, but the kids weren't as calm and quiet as I would have liked.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

I haven't read the thread in its entirety, so please excuse me if I have committed errors that have already been addressed.










These marks may be too close, and now that I look at it again, I would move G1 further left, and F2 slightly further right.

I have cover and terrain changes marked in red.

On G1, dog has to traverse several cover and terrain changes, however these are roughly square for the most part- for that reason, I like Howard's mat better. My thinking on this one is that the dog would find the gun station and hunt, possibly deflecting left along the terrain change. Should have about 100 yards to run around in behind the bird.

For the flyer, the dog would have a choice to make after finding the gun- continue straight up the hill (a bit concealed by my lines) to the bird, or follow the terrain to the right or left.

Both terrain and wind would influence young dogs to run toward the left on both marks.

Ok, I missed the wind indicator at first, so I would be throwing a flyer into the wind- oops.


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Rick_C said:


> Unless I'm interpreting the direction of the throw incorectly, it seems you're throwing your flyer into the wind which could cause some birds to hook back left and end up behind the guns or land close to the guns, causing no birds.


From the diagram it appears to me that the wind is out of the east and the gunners are throwing mostly north. Also, in the picture the grass is not blowing over, so I would assume the wind is not that strong and the throwers will not have much difficulty getting a consistant throw.


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## fax6202 (Sep 17, 2013)

Are there any more threads out there like this one, concerning Derby marks. This thread is great, but I could not find much more. Looking for as much help as I can get on Derby setups, particularly for training. Thanks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

In the next few months, the Retriever News will be publishing a series of articles on the "Design and Construction of Field Trial Marks"

I will keep you posted as we get closer to deadline

Ted


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