# Thoughts on the Controversy of the Happy Bumper



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

I was inspired to write an article for a future Retrievers ONLINE issue by a recent thread. Here I take the gist of the article, modify it, and offer it as food for thought to RTF because of the earlier inspiration-thanks!

Elsewhere there is a post called “Accidental Heeling Drill Discovered”. I think it was meant to be called Heeling Drill Accidentally Discovered. Actually, the drill was not a new discovery except for the OP. The idea of doing heeling exercises while in the face of the imminent marks with throwers is not new but certainly valuable. It is seldom practiced in groups where it would be most effective. However, that thread drifted off into a discussion of fun and happy bumpers, their pros and cons. While some didn’t like them, others used them for attitude adjustment.

My take on “happy” or “fun” bumpers has changed over the years. Way back in the dark ages (40 years ago), I was known to throw a happy bumper for fun for the dog to be happy. By “happy or fun bumper, I mean a free for all, go break and get ‘em bumper thrown by the trainer. It is signalled as such with an excited hey-hey or hup-hup or whatever you want to say that is excited. 

Over time I noticed that my dogs really didn’t need these for a good attitude. Good attitudes come from how you train-how you correct and how you praise. If I needed a Happy bumper, it usually meant my training was sour-better to fix that than patch that. 

I also noticed that most people gave their dogs a happy bumper when they themselves were happy. The dog did well, came back wagging their tails and the trainer threw a happy bumper because they were so pleased that their dog had done well. The trainer thought they needed to let their dog know they were happy and make them happy. HAH!! The dog was ALREADY happy!!! 

Then, I observed how wild and reckless dogs were on happy bumpers and I wondered about the tremendous strain and torque on ligaments, tendons and muscles. Especially, when the dog was not totally warmed up!!! One evening, two days before a National Amateur, one of my top dogs(a 200 point FTCH AFTCH FC AFC dog) ruptured a cruciate on a happy bumper. He had done well and I was happy and I threw a happy bumper and said to myself, we’re ready for this National!! That was 1988. I never threw another happy bumper for over 20 years and my dog’s attitude never suffered.

About three years ago, as I watched the Hillmann DVD’s I noted all his “happy” bumpers. The difference though is they were NOT meant to make the dog happy. They were to make the dog excited and to get the dog into a real “prey drive” mode. The idea was to balance excitement and obedience. But first you needed the excitement. Train a dog in that mode and they are ready to learn and be good students. This had nothing to do with improving attitude after a “bad” session. It wasn’t to make the handler happy. It wasn’t to reward the dog. It was in some ways fun for the dog but the purpose was not to allow the dog to have fun. The purpose was to get the dog revved up and excited so that they were in a good frame of mind to tackle the next steps. When better to require obedience than when the dog is hyper excited. Isn’t that when we have most of the obedience problems at a field trial? This kind of “happy’ bumper made sense to me. I labelled it an excitement bumper not a happy or fun bumper.

So my next problem was how to make it safe for the dogs’ body? I learned that if I threw it in 6-12” cover of grass and threw an orange bumper at distances of 40-50 yards there was none of that wild twisting and turning. The dog raced to the area but seldom had that sliding screeching twisting white bumper on the lawn stress on his body. Bonus: He learned to use his eyes in conjunction with his nose. I signalled an exciting break with a hup-hup. The dogs got very excited. If I said “sit” first, the standard was ZERO movement and no break. While I haven’t discussed this aspect of excitement bumpers with Bill, it jives with the rest of his philosophy re eyes, nose and excitement.
So for all the RTFers who use happy bumpers, primarily for fun and happy, think about this. What are you rewarding besides yourself? -something that happened in the dogs mind 2 minutes ago? Why do you need to improve attitude? Perhaps the other parts of your training session need improvement.

To all those that don’t use happy bumpers, perhaps you are missing out on a valuable tool.

PS. My older dogs do not get excitement bumpers for a reward or attitude. The bird and my good dog is their reward and their training is geared to good attitudes.

Cheers


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Nicely written and wonderful explanation, thank you, Dennis.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

This guy should be a professional writer of something,

Nice post Dennis!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

What do you call it when the dog is mostly sitting on the truck for days, and you take him out at the hotel parking lot and throw bumpers for exercise? Are these happy bumpers?

Mostly I've done the above, and the Hillman style fun bumpers. Maybe the latter should be dubbed something like learning bumpers. 

If you throw the fun bumpers in water, it seems the potential for injuries would be reduced as well.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Years ago, a good friend of mine who is also a well respected veterinarian specializing in orthopedic surgery told me that happy bumpers were the number one cause of the TPLO repairs he does. I haven't used them since. And I'm glad to read Dennis's thoughts as well, since I have the utmost respect for him. Thanks for sharing those thoughts.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

mitty said:


> What do you call it when the dog is mostly sitting on the truck for days, and you take him out at the hotel parking lot and throw bumpers for exercise? Are these happy bumpers?
> 
> Mostly I've done the above, and the Hillman style fun bumpers. Maybe the latter should be dubbed something like learning bumpers.
> 
> If you throw the fun bumpers in water, it seems the potential for injuries would be reduced as well.


When your dog has been sitting on the truck for days why would you throw breaker birds? Throwing a bumper buy hand on a lawn to a "cold" muscle dog just out of a truck would be a terrible thing to do physically. Warm them up properly for starters. 

Hillman's bumpers are not learning bumpers as I explained-they are excitement bumpers. I explained how I feel I can safely throw an excitement bumper.

Water entries are not a freebie for safety. The dog I referenced that ruptured a cruciate had the bumper thrown in the water. The nature of the shore and thus the type of entry is critical


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Dennis, as you know, for a lot of these dogs a quick retrieve is the best reward for any desired behavior we're trying to re-enforce. It sure is for the puppy I'm training now and besides, hot dogs were getting expensive LOL. I know I'm preaching to the choir there but some additional things to chew on also.

I also took to the use of verbal markers this time around and the results have been astounding. I say "OK" as a marker (like a clicker) to release the dog from the command she's performing and "Good" to tell her to keep doing what she's doing. So for duration in a sit position once she knows what the command is, it's sit, good, good, good, OK! and then she gets her reward, a short retrieve.

I have been using a this strategy all the way through. We are in collar conditioning for sit and we're learning to hold at the same time. 

So I get her to hold with a couple of bumps on the chin but when she does it for a few seconds, I give the good good good marker and then the OK marker, take the bumper and toss it. Since I've conditioned those verbal sounds into her communication, she knows she's doing the right thing and that she's released for the reward when I say OK. She's learning FAST and has a great attitude about the whole thing so far. 

I've done the same with collar conditioning. When I get that repetition where the dog "beats" the pressure, I also mark the behavior and reward with a quick retrieve. 

In this way we are combining negative re-enforcement and positive re-enforcement of the appropriate behavior, and for some of the more driven dogs we are also using some negative punishment as well.

I may be koo koo like Cocoa Puffs but to me the more quadrants of the operant conditioning model I can put into play the better we are going to learn and grow.

It's really just a combination of your two recent posts, "simplifying dog learning" and this one.

The only word of caution and the reason I have shied away from any happy or excitement type bumpers is that they re-enforce whatever pup was doing at the time they were thrown. I always make sure I get some desired behavior before I throw one and it still brings the drive up like we want.

I'll tease her up with a bumper but I always give a sit command before I mark and throw. Her butt will only be down a second in that case and I'm very animated, but I feel it rewards a desired behavior and it's safer than having her spin to take off and hurt herself. We get something other than just drive out of it what way too.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

What about happy bumpers as part of "funning up" retrieving just coming off of FF and walking fetch? Seems some level of excitment/higher energy praise after the formalized drilling can set a good attitude quickly.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> When your dog has been sitting on the truck for days why would you throw breaker birds? Throwing a bumper buy hand on a lawn to a "cold" muscle dog just out of a truck would be a terrible thing to do physically. Warm them up properly for starters.
> 
> Hillman's bumpers are not learning bumpers as I explained-they are excitement bumpers. I explained how I feel I can safely throw an excitement bumper.
> 
> Water entries are not a freebie for safety. The dog I referenced that ruptured a cruciate had the bumper thrown in the water. The nature of the shore and thus the type of entry is critical


How do you warm your dogs up at events? Or at crowded motels? I haven't figured it out yet.

Often there is no open space nearby. 

The dog always gets a little walk but it doesn't seem like it could be enough.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Renee

I believe you get Retrievers ONLINE? See my detailed explanation in the Spring issue. You can do it anywhere.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> Dennis, as you know, for a lot of these dogs a quick retrieve is the best reward for any desired behavior we're trying to re-enforce. It sure is for the puppy I'm training now and besides, hot dogs were getting expensive LOL. I know I'm preaching to the choir there but some additional things to chew on also.
> 
> I also took to the use of verbal markers this time around and the results have been astounding. I say "OK" as a marker (like a clicker) to release the dog from the command she's performing and "Good" to tell her to keep doing what she's doing. So for duration in a sit position once she knows what the command is, it's sit, good, good, good, OK! and then she gets her reward, a short retrieve.
> 
> ...


From all the study of clicker and mark training that I have made, I have no objection to it. It seems to be good for starting some things up close but it soon reached its field limits.

I much prefer a simpler method. For my dogs, "Good" and "Good dog" become markers very effectively. With pups I do use the OK but I really think most people would benefit from studying the behaviour and timing of correction and praise instead of timing with markers. "Good" means you did the right thing. It's not that the dog is good-the behaviour is!! It becomes praise to the dog all too quickly. Thus "good" is a marker and a reward all in one. 

How sweet is that?

For some the study of markers will help them with timing. Pat Nolan's young dog work is valuable but it is not necessary for most things. With his experience he could do without the markers and rewards but they are helpful for him to teach clients as well as pups.

I like to keep it simple!

PS. My "recent" post on Simplifying Dog Learning was made in 2008!!!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dennis

Could you be so kind to explain the difference between "excitement" and "Fun"

With Mr Hillmans approach you started every training session with puppy using Excitement, Happy, Fun, breaking, ect,,ect, bumpers before you incorporated the obedience. true he did it for balance,,, but I dont understand how the DOG knows the difference between a bumper bouncing across a field as being an excitement bumper,, and not a fun one.


The dogs I have had in the past have picked up bumpers with enthusuasum almost to the point of recklesness weather they be thrown by me as a "fun" bumper,, or by a BB out in the field.. The same tumbling, rolling,, flipping over,, occured very often with both.. 

Respectfully 

Gooser


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great constructive analysis of fun throws and their use. The injury aspect got my attention! Must have been a major blow for you Dennis the day before the championship! 

Guess it's like most other aspects of training: don't use tools frivolously or with bad timing. And avoid causing injury.

Thanks for information. I was definitely using happy bumpers frivolously and a little dangerously. Will put more thought into it from now on.

Jennifer


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> Dennis
> 
> Could you be so kind to explain the difference between "excitement" and "Fun"
> 
> ...


Well all things that are exciting are not necessarily fun. It is exciting to run my "wild Dog" Obe at a field trial but I wouldn't label it fun. Ditto some things that are fun do not contain a lot of excitement( watching comedy).

However, you are right that a dog that is having fun and one that is excited do not look different. And, yes the dog does not know whether a bumper is fun or exciting as it bounces. Fortunately dogs are not that analytical or we would be in trouble.

What is different and thus important is why you are doing it. The fun happy bumper thower is doing it to give his dog fun or make him happy. When I am doing it I am doing it to get the dog excited so that I can then balance that with obedience and a focus on my lesson. The purposes are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. That is why I said fun bumpers had merit-not because they make a dog happy but because they can be used so profitably to teach about obedience!!! Most don't use them that way and in fact use them to teach disobedience inadvertently or to improve attitude.

Respectfully also


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> From all the study of clicker and mark training that I have made, I have no objection to it. It seems to be good fro starting some things up close but it soon reached its fiedl limits.
> 
> I much prefer a simpler method. For my dogs, "Good" and "Good dog" become markers very effectively. With pups I do use the OK but I really thing most people would benefit from studying the behaviour and timing of correction and praise instead of time with markers. "Good" means you did the right thing. It's not that the dog is good-the behaviour is!! It becomes praise to the dog all too quickly. Thus "good" is a marker and a reward all in one.
> 
> ...


Agreed 100% Dennis. I'm working on developing a system I can teach to a newbie trainer and have it be effective with a wide variety of dogs. I have a motive with this little experiment I'm doing.

I guess my biggest thing that I wanted people to consider relative to happy or excitement or whatever you call them bumpers was that a retrieve is a reward for SOMETHING the dog is doing.

If they're bouncing around when you launch it, they are going to eventually be prone to bouncing around because you keep re-enforcing the behavior in the name of drive and excitement. I'm sure you can see how that association could form in the dog's mind and serve to create confusion with a less experienced trainer than yourself at the helm. 

I don't see you or anyone at your level having that issue because the consistency is there in the rest of your work. 

Oh and 2008 isn't recent? Whoopsie


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I said fun bumpers had merit-not because they make a dog happy but because they can be used so profitably to teach about obedience!!! Most don't use them that way and in fact use them to teach disobedience inadvertently or to improve attitude.


OK so forget my last post.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I don't do many of these. Its like junk food for dogs. There i a lot of fun in watching a dog go after them, but the health risks have always worried me. I believe it degrades all kinds of training aspects. Throw a real simple mark if you want but I'm not really into giving crack to an addict...

/Paul


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Great post and info Dennis. Thanks.

I don't do many "happy" or "excitement" bumpers. If I do I control when the dog goes and away it from the training area or line. JMO


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I don't do many of these. Its like junk food for dogs. There i a lot of fun in watching a dog go after them, but the health risks have always worried me. I believe it degrades all kinds of training aspects. Throw a real simple mark if you want but I'm not really into giving crack to an addict...
> 
> /Paul


Paul,

No experience with that white stuff but it seems to be a good analogy. Like happy bumpers, giving crack to the addict makes the addict happy and the giver profits. So my analogy is that when wisely used with a young puppy, you can get them excited and happy to endulge and then you can profit if you can turn it into a good learning lesson on obedience. I am learning that they can be addicted to both. Learning to sit and be patient for your turn becomes a huge game. They learn that obedience results in ultimate reward- a bird. That's a powerful addiction to have!

Used as junk food, agree, fun to indulge but way more negatives than value.

Again I emphasize, I could not personally indulge in throwing happy bumpers until I learned how to do them safely. That means a properly warmed up dog and a safe kind of retrieve. That take home message is equally important to the above.

Cheers


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

FinnLandR said:


> Dennis, is the issue still available, for those of us who don't subscribe because the other adult in the house thinks we get too many magazines already? Can you give a teaser?


Here you go:

http://www.billhillmann.net/dr-jennell-appel-certified-canine-rehabilitation-therapist/


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## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

This is a very interesting thread - thankyou. I used to use a lot of happy bumpers until one of my dogs was carrying an injury and had to stop throwing. I now just toss one towards the dog to see if they can catch it and then have a run around for a minute before being called back in and into the crate or tie down. This is normally at the end of a training session so the dogs know they can now have a run and discipline is over for now. Is this still a bad thing? Must admit it is also for me as I can also relax!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

mitty said:


> Here you go:
> 
> http://www.billhillmann.net/dr-jennell-appel-certified-canine-rehabilitation-therapist/


Yes, exactly that is the teaser. What I tried to explain in my article and version is how I modified this to make it useful and practical for the field trainer. I incorporated a silent signal into the exertion part for control and I did the stretching part in a holding blind before going to line. It is something I can do at a trial and help get some focus when I see my dogs are over the top in anticipation.

All of this takes additional time and I haven't been able to figure out how a Pro with 20 dogs can incoporate. However, the 1-2 dog amateur can. I had a dog that was in rehab for superspinatus and bicep tendinopathy for many months with laser/ ultrasound /massage/icing and assorted exercises with very slow recovery. I started this warm-up routine and NEVER allowed any running around out of the kennel until done and i was able to train and trial and now hunt tough conditions 100% without any limp. I attribute it entirely to the warm-up. 

Sorry for the tangent, but I believe it is crtiical. Yes and thanks to Jennell!!


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## Noah (Apr 6, 2003)

My use of happy bumpers has markedly declined over the years. For the most part, I only use them when in my estimation the dogs attitude is diminishing, usually young dogs, during drill work in basic and early transition phases of training. I agree with Dennis in that, the exuberance a dog displays in retrieving a happy bumper increases the opportunity for injury, especially in an inadequately warmed up dog. I also believe that the etiology of many injuries, such as CCL, is that if the pathology is present, it could have easily occurred on a blind or mark, it is just a matter of time not activity.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

mitty said:


> I am wondering about the science behind the recommendation that we warm the dogs up by walking them on lead, as opposed to letting them roam at their own dog-directed pace. My intuition and experience tells me that heeling is an unnatural gait for the dog, and it surprises me that this is a better way for the dog to warm up than letting it roam free for a few minutes.
> 
> Maybe this topic is for a separate thread.



Again Renee, this is explained in the article. Why would you think that walking is an unnatural gait? Your intuition and experience is not based on science. There are 3 natural common gaits-walk, trot and gallop(ie AKA /lope/canter). The science on proper warm-up says you want repetitive, steady, moderate movement to get ALL of the muscles primed and blood circulating to all muscles/tissues/organs. This does not happen with random running around. The steady repetitive movement is the key! Get the heart rate up and steady and later you will do sprints and stops and turns. The walk is brisk but it is not a trot and the dog will begin to pant lightly.

Those of you that are athletes or horse trainers will find this very familiar. Incidentally, stretching is counter-indicated until the muscles are warmed up. The major stretching exercises should occur in athletes AFTER the exertion.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Again Renee, this is explained in the article. Why would you think that walking is an unnatural gait? Your intuition and experience is not based on science. There are 3 natural common gaits-walk, trot and gallop(ie AKA /lope/canter). The science on proper warm-up says you want repetitive, steady, moderate movement to get ALL of the muscles primed and blood circulating to all muscles/tissues/organs. This does not happen with random running around. The steady repetitive movement is the key! Get the heart rate up and steady and later you will do sprints and stops and turns. The walk is brisk but it is not a trot and the dog will begin to pant lightly.
> 
> Those of you that are athletes or horse trainers will find this very familiar. Incidentally, stretching is counter-indicated until the muscles are warmed up. The major stretching exercises should occur in athletes AFTER the exertion.


Sorry, I deleted that post because I thought I was too off topic. I am actually a scientist, so my intuition and experience comes from that. I do not have a good understanding of exercise physiology or anatomy, however. I would like to read the research from which the recommendation came, that was really my point. I'm merely curious.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

Years ago, Cotton Pershall told me to never let a dog break once it was steady. I took his advice without any questions but later figured that if I never threw happy bumpers and let him break; then there wouldn't ever be any confusion as whether he was sent or not so breaking would consitute correction.
I do throw therapy marks as Mike lardy does where the dog is kept steady and the bumper is thrown by hand to a place where it can be easily found and retrieved.


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

great post


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## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

Dennis,

Nice post. I don't find that my dog needs fun bumpers. She suffers from having to much desire (OCD). I don't use an E-collar or any other type of physical correction in my training. Either the dog earns the reward to retrieve or they are denied the reward. I have a couple of problems with fun bumpers one the dog starts to expect them to the point of at a hunt test they try to take the bird back from the bird boy or the judge. Two it is a free for all, the rules are tossed aside and the dog is allowed to break, is not asked to return to heal and give the bird. Often the dog is allowed to carry the bird or bumper to point of dropping it. Not behaviors I want to reinforce.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Nothing wrong with a happy bumper to relieve stress. We have our own happy bumpers for ourselves---a favorite cigar, a glass of wine, a walk, etc. In fact, one of the advantages of providing high school students with a gym class during the school day is the release of stress and tension. Want to find people that are amped up just look at a high school student---testosterone and adrenaline to the max. Gym class helps reduce stress. If you want to tell me dogs are different, I say no they aren't. If you have taught or have kids you know what I'm talking about. Learning is stressful. 

Perhaps many trainers misuse happy bumpers?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Dennis, your discussion is good. However when talking about using "good dog" as a marker, are we talking about the same thing? Clicker training or marker training makes use of a conditioned reinforcer. In order to be effective, the conditioned reinforcer must be 1) properly conditioned 2) delivered immediately 3) unique 4) specific i.e. the same sound (pitch) each time. "Good dog" is most often used as praise which may not meet the conditions of a marker. A dog may hear "good dog" several times during the day and the phrase may become worn out (learned irrelevance) or may accidentally reinforce other behaviors. "Good dog" may be spoken in different pitches and then becomes useless as a conditioned reinforcer. Also, when I ask if the phrase "good dog" or "yes" has been properly conditioned, the answer I hear from trainers is "I don't have to-the dog knows what it means." That shows misunderstanding of learning principles.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

clear your inbox George!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> Dennis, your discussion is good. However when talking about using "good dog" as a marker, are we talking about the same thing? Clicker training or marker training makes use of a conditioned reinforcer. In order to be effective, the conditioned reinforcer must be 1) properly conditioned 2) delivered immediately 3) unique 4) specific i.e. the same sound (pitch) each time. * "Good dog" is most often used as praise which may not meet the conditions of a marker. A dog may hear "good dog" several times during the day and the phrase may become worn out (learned irrelevance) or may accidentally reinforce other behaviors.* "Good dog" may be spoken in different pitches and then becomes useless as a conditioned reinforcer. Also, when I ask if the phrase "good dog" or "yes" has been properly conditioned, the answer I hear from trainers is "I don't have to-the dog knows what it means." That shows misunderstanding of learning principles.


I agree with this. So why do people let "good dog" become meaningless by using it all day long? :?

I have chastised a friend who will bend down, pat his dog on the head and tell her, "good dog" whenever the dog walks up to him with her tail wagging. Makes him feel good but to the dog it's just, "blah, blah, blah" because he uses it all day long. And you're right ... it just diminishes the usefulness. The same would happen to the clicker if you clicked it at the dog all day long for no particular reason. Nothing wrong with using the clicker, but it is not magic. Just a way to compensate for our communication habits.

Dogs are not verbal animals. They don't hang around in the pack talking to each other all day.  Their communication is subtle body language and when they go verbal, the rest pay attention. To tell a dog, "good dog" for no particular reason is just as bad as yelling at him for no particular reason. Save it for special occasions and it will mean plenty.

JS


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Thank you JS. Please tell me how you are able to coach your friends and not have a problem with them. I could use some help on this. My help is usually dismissed.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Darrin, my inbox is cleared.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> Thank you JS. Please tell me how you are able to coach your friends and not have a problem with them. I could use some help on this. My help is usually dismissed.


I have the best dogs in the group.  They think I'm GOD.

JS (just kidding, of course.)


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> Thank you JS. Please tell me how you are able to coach your friends and not have a problem with them. I could use some help on this. My help is usually dismissed.


Yuck yuck yuck, ha ha ha. Yup, that's the way it is. The only thing two members of my training group can agree on is that member #3 is screwing up something. :twisted: :twisted:


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Over time I noticed that my dogs really didn’t need these for a good attitude. Good attitudes come from how you train-how you correct and how you praise. If I needed a Happy bumper, it usually meant my training was sour-better to fix that than patch that.


This is still what I believe. IMO, it's better to get your training balanced for that dog than to try and fix something with happy bumpers.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I have recently talked to folks about the Hillman method. They didn't like it because they said it gets the dogs too wild about retrieving. They missed the point. I think it's really clear that Hillman gets the dogs wild about retrieving, then he throws a happy bumper and then says, OK - now its time to do something else.

Most of the time now when I'm doing OB work away from throwers and the anticipation of the retrieve, I do it with a happy bumper laying out in the deep grass. Otherwise my time is wasted... It has nothing to do with correcting a poor attitude.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I like George's glass of wine analogy. For me it's a tall Vodka tonic on weekends. I don't "need" it, it doesn't fix anything, but it's sure a nice reward and relaxing after a week's work. And mind you, I enjoy my work immensely and the people I work with and frankly, it's not a stressful job at all. Seems to me the important thing is moderation and proper usage.

After reading these threads, I recognize that I was over using fun bumpers and have toned it down quite a bit. Plus, I pay attention to the throws to make sure pup doesn't hurt herself.

As for using "Good Boy" as a marker. Probably not the best choice, since everyone in the world who meets your dog is likely to say it in the greeting ritual. And I doubt anyone who really has a great, close relationship with their dog, has the self discipline to never use the words Good Boy outside of strict marking type usage. Another word like "right" or something nice and sharp and short seems better.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

gdgnyc said:


> Dennis, your discussion is good. However when talking about using "good dog" as a marker, are we talking about the same thing? Clicker training or marker training makes use of a conditioned reinforcer. In order to be effective, the conditioned reinforcer must be 1) properly conditioned 2) delivered immediately 3) unique 4) specific i.e. the same sound (pitch) each time. "Good dog" is most often used as praise which may not meet the conditions of a marker. A dog may hear "good dog" several times during the day and the phrase may become worn out (learned irrelevance) or may accidentally reinforce other behaviors. "Good dog" may be spoken in different pitches and then becomes useless as a conditioned reinforcer. Also, when I ask if the phrase "good dog" or "yes" has been properly conditioned, the answer I hear from trainers is "I don't have to-the dog knows what it means." That shows misunderstanding of learning principles.



I use “good dog”, “good” or “OK” early in a pup’s learnings of very specific behaviours, like fetch, sit. I use these words when the behaviour I am after has just occurred. I am not initially viewing these words as praise or a reward but a signal, if you will, timed with the behaviour.


So in actual practice what happens is that I say fetch, the dog fetches, I repeat the fetch ( or hold) and then OK or good. So the sequence is a command(stimulus), a behaviour, a reinforcer, which surprisingly can be the command while the dog is doing the behaviour (a la Hillmann), and a secondary reinforcer(OK). The final reward is the dog sitting there holding the bird-quite huge) (Recall:A reinforcer is an event or an effect that strengthens a behavior that immediately preceded it. Secondary reinforcers, (also called conditioned reinforcers) are those that are paired with event or a stimulus that acts as a reinforcer. Conditioned reinforcers don’t have to things like the same pitch sound-they can be all sorts of consistent events-like a flash of light!)


I do not use “good dog" to mean that the dog is good but I do use it to say the behaviour is good, I am signaling or marking the behaviour each time. I am real judicious about using “good”. It only is used for a behaviour act not just for being a good dog. Prime examples are fetching the bird and sitting. Retrievers being what they are are suckers for reward and comfort and social contact and fitting in. Thus, when every is going well, it’s a reward in itself. To my Labradors holding a bird is a huge reward. “Good” getting paired with the bird and the act of fetching becomes a form of marker for the behaviour that also becomes the reward.


Yes, I know the clicker folks have a very strict sequence and set of rules. I think that what I do follows such similar principles of operant theory that the differences are negligible in practice. There are so many subtle things going on and so many ways to analyze and interpret that it is pretty easy to.get “paralysis from analysis”. I know that the above explanation is not the classic textbook version. Fortunately our dogs react the same. Also, fortunately our dogs are pretty straight-forward and it is easy to command a dog, reinforce a behaviour, and signal the dog that that behaviour was correct and thus reinforce it and reward it. 


I believe the strict protocol of clicker trainers is not necessary to be using the exact same principles of learning. I do not have a clicker, nor feel a need to deal with its field limitations but I do have body English, a voice and later an e-collar. 


Incidentally, I disagree that dogs are not verbal. I studied wolves, foxes and coyotes and also dogs for many years. All are extremely vocal in addition to their body posture and scent communication. I train some days totally silently. . Other days I minimize posture communications. My point is dogs will respond to many stimuli and signals. Also noteworrthy is that I am using the heeling stick and leads far less these days. My point is that I find it best to observe the behaviour, command behaviour, and reward or correct the behaviour. In contrast, a lot of people are rewarding or correcting the “dog”. It’s a subtle difference but important. Clicker people focus on the behaviour and thus clicker training has opened the eyes of thousands. 

But I do not believe the gold is in the clicker but in the observing of the behaviour.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Just want to add that the clicker is a tool, and people who use the clicker training theory don't sell the idea that a clicker is the end-all, be-all. It's just a tool with some really good applications for helping to mark the right behaviors when teaching new concepts. Further, it helps proof the final desired behavior and build behavior chains, like: fetch, hold, heel, sit and give/drop. Dennis and a few others have used the same phrase a few times that they don't use a clicker because of its limitations in the field. 

And it's true, dog's can't hear a click at 200 - 400 yards. Pretty sure they can't hear "Good", "Ok" at distance, either. 

Clicker training = marker training. 

Persecuted clicker trainer regards -
Jennifer


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Jhenion said:


> Dennis and a few others have used the same phrase a few times that they don't use a clicker because of its limitations in the field.
> 
> And it's true, dog's can't hear a click at 200 - 400 yards. Pretty sure they can't hear "Good", "Ok" at distance, either.
> 
> ...


No persecution intended, Jennifer. And right you are about "good dog" at 400. Put I'll challenge you on 200-300! Would be surprised if a clicker reaches to 50 yards. I routinely do "good dog" to long distances. However, that is not my major point. "Good Dog"= signal the behaviour was good! I always have a "good dog" with me!! In fact, used it this AM when I had to handle Obe off a very prominent dead mallard to an unseen cripple swimming into shore. Was able to "click" him with a "good" the instant he found the duck and thus also signify great behaviour and reward him at same time.

PS. He didn't need the "good"


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

When my dog makes a big ass swim and steps on the last retired bird of a quad that no dog is doing I yell "GOOOOOOOOD"! 
They can hear you just fine 400 some yards away no worries!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> No persecution intended, Jennifer. And right you are about "good dog" at 400. Put I'll challenge you on 200-300! Would be surprised if a clicker reaches to 50 yards. I routinely do "good dog" to long distances. However, that is not my major point. "Good Dog"= signal the behaviour was good! I always have a "good dog" with me!! In fact, used it this AM when I had to handle Obe off a very prominent dead mallard to an unseen cripple swimming into shore. Was able to "click" him with a "good" the instant he found the duck and thus also signify great behaviour and reward him at same time.
> 
> PS. He didn't need the "good"


The reward of working with the boss to find a crippled duck is about the best reward in the world!!!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Dennis is not a handler doing and saying nothing when the dog completes a complicated mark a "good" signal to the dog at times. 
For instance you have a battle, handle, recall, hammer what have you to get a dog to swim to a mark vs cave to the gun. Third try the dog swims straight to the mark, exits at the perfect spot and steps on the bird. 
After the earlier Sunday come to Jesus meeting with the dog that probably included some yelling is your silence marking the behavior in that moment?
Thanks much.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Breck said:


> Dennis is not a handler doing and saying nothing when the dog completes a complicated mark a "good" signal to the dog at times.
> For instance you have a battle, handle, recall, hammer what have you to get a dog to swim to a mark vs cave to the gun. Third try the dog swims straight to the mark, exits at the perfect spot and steps on the bird.
> After the earlier Sunday come to Jesus meeting with the dog that probably included some yelling is your silence marking the behavior in that moment?
> Thanks much.


Well, the bird is always a good. However, when the dog struggles and then gets a lesson, I feel that is one of the very most important times to interject the YES!! On occasion Rex Carr used to "fracture" the dog. That meant he dumped on effusive praise. I like that when the dog has really struggled rather than just stand by and let the bird reward alone. The bird alone is the day-to-day reward but when it's a special deal as you said earlier-LET THEM KNOW!!!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK, thank you Dennis I get it. 
I guess I've only used the excessive/flowery/effusive praise with baby puppies so will keep that in mind for the future.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I like effusive praise for a job well done.


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

What about Rex Carr's use of the happy bumper? He called it "fracturing" the dog in the Carr/Rorem tapes. It seemed like it was meant to be more than just a stress reliever. Anyone who knows what Rex meant by this care to comment?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

God... How embarrassing!

Help Gooser out with effusive,,,, Please


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

North Mountain said:


> What about Rex Carr's use of the happy bumper? He called it "fracturing" the dog in the Carr/Rorem tapes. It seemed like it was meant to be more than just a stress reliever. Anyone who knows what Rex meant by this care to comment?


Fracturing for Rex was the ultimate praise. It was extreme and reserved for when the dog finally "got it" There were all degrees of praise but few practiced the extreme praise that Rex called fracturing. It did not necessarily involve a happy bumper but it did involve much verbal praise and perhaps physical contact. frankly, I have seen few give it the way rex did.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Well, the bird is always a good. However, when the dog struggles and then gets a lesson, I feel that is one of the very most important times to interject the YES!! On occasion Rex Carr used to "fracture" the dog. That meant he dumped on effusive praise. I like that when the dog has really struggled rather than just stand by and let the bird reward alone. The bird alone is the day-to-day reward but when it's a special deal as you said earlier-LET THEM KNOW!!!



What do you think of using the tone button on the collar for this? When out 3 - 400 yds?


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## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> Just want to add that the clicker is a tool, and people who use the clicker training theory don't sell the idea that a clicker is the end-all, be-all. It's just a tool with some really good applications for helping to mark the right behaviors when teaching new concepts. Further, it helps proof the final desired behavior and build behavior chains, like: fetch, hold, heel, sit and give/drop. Dennis and a few others have used the same phrase a few times that they don't use a clicker because of its limitations in the field.
> 
> And it's true, dog's can't hear a click at 200 - 400 yards. Pretty sure they can't hear "Good", "Ok" at distance, either.
> 
> ...


I have never used clicker training but I do train with a person that uses a clicker training program with his lab. He has transitioned his clicker over to the vibration on the e-collar so at 400 yards he can vibrate the collar to indicate to the dog that it made a correct choice.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Im_with_Brandy said:


> I have never used clicker training but I do train with a person that uses a clicker training program with his lab. He has transitioned his clicker over to the vibration on the e-collar so at 400 yards he can vibrate the collar to indicate to the dog that it made a correct choice.


Good idea!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Im_with_Brandy said:


> I have never used clicker training but I do train with a person that uses a clicker training program with his lab. He has transitioned his clicker over to the vibration on the e-collar so at 400 yards he can vibrate the collar to indicate to the dog that it made a correct choice.



Can you tell me who it is and whether it's a spaniel or retriever? Would love to have someone to talk to about it!

Jennifer

Guess I'll pm you about it.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Must have missed this in 2012, but it deserves a bump


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

And sometimes they don't wait for ya to throw it ! First pup worked yesterday :


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

/\/\/\/\/\!!! This! I just do not Do happy bumpers anymore. I or the dogs stand way too much chance of getting hurt than any benefit that could come from it. I can find lots of other ways to let them release steam or tell them "good dog!"


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Steve Shaver said:


> What do you think of using the tone button on the collar for this? When out 3 - 400 yds?


 The tone on the collar can be used for correction however. I think you would have to start teaching the pup very early on. Just remember the nick and burn come from the same collar so it may? be confusing the dog. I used the pager tone on my Dogtra for correcting a loopy sit, instead of a nick, but it is a form of neg. punishment. It did work. So somehow you would have to introduce the pager for praising your dog so the dog understands what you are doing and you don't confuse the dog with the other uses of the collar. If you don't use a collar then you could possibly teach the dog more easily but I would find a person that teaches clicker training, get some coaching and instead of the clicker, use the pager (see if it is possible). I say all this b/c I had wanted to use the tone for positive connotation but had already started using the tone in the way I described (neg). I did have a chat with a clicker trainer about all this and on my next pup would like to try and see if I could use the pager way out there. Dogtra does have a new collar out which looks interesting. http://www.dogtrastore.com/dogtraiqcliq.html JMHO


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> The tone on the collar can also be used for correction. I think you would have to start teaching the pup very early on. Just remember the nick and your burn also come from the same collar so it may? be confusing the dog. I have tried to use the pager tone on my Dogtra for correcting a loopy sit. It does work instead of a nick, but it is still a form of neg. punishment. So somehow you would have to introduce the pager so the dog understands what you are doing and you don't confuse the dog. I say all this b/c I had wanted to use the tone for positive connotation but had already started using the tone in the way I described. JMO



Maybe you could get a bark collar that sprays bitter apple and exchange the bitter for meat juice? When dog is good, spray meat juice on it's head as a reward?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I find that I can holler "Thats it!" or "Good Boy!" pretty darn far. Timing is everything.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Maybe you could get a bark collar that sprays bitter apple and exchange the bitter for meat juice? When dog is good, spray meat juice on it's head as a reward?


Somehow I think you would have prob with that!


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## CRNAret (Oct 3, 2012)

Hillmann has a different "happy" bumper now and that is playing catch using a bumper - just a little underhand toss with a soft bumper. It is a lot safer than "happys" and better during very hot weather. My dogs love it.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

CRNAret said:


> Hillmann has a different "happy" bumper now and that is playing catch using a bumper - just a little underhand toss with a soft bumper. It is a lot safer than "happys" and better during very hot weather. My dogs love it.


This is what I do, and I don't throw them very far at all. Hopefully he doesn't get up enough speed and torque to hurt himself. 

I also try to yell "Good!" - before he gets the bird/bumper if it's toward the end - to let him know he has made a good decision and particularly if it is something he has struggled with. I figure I let him know when he does it wrong, so I need to let him know (other than getting the bird) when he does it right. Of course, this works better if you can catch the dog actually making the decision. 

For those who have trained several dogs, I wonder if you can "over praise" a dog that is not as absolutely sure it is right as mine is. Could you praise to the point that the dog needed the praise to really commit to whatever you are asking him to do?


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## mgatc (Jan 7, 2012)

RookieTrainer said:


> I also try to yell "Good!" - before he gets the bird/bumper if it's toward the end - to let him know he has made a good decision and particularly if it is something he has struggled with. I figure I let him know when he does it wrong, so I need to let him know (other than getting the bird) when he does it right. Of course, this works better if you can catch the dog actually making the decision.


Most of us use a collar to make immediate corrections in the field for incorrect behaviors - I certainly do. I also believe the reverse is true and that it is equally important to acknowledge the positive behaviors in a similar fashion. I do this by using the beeper function on the collar. I conditioned my dog to this by applying the sound function on the collar while petting or verbally praising the dog. Using this tool, I provide immediate, positive feedback for good behaviors at any time or distance. I see the immediate effect of this on my dog by a tail wag and/or an increase in drive. Kinda like a little shot of confidence.
So basically, a "nick" for cheating water, a "beep" for an honest entry.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> ... I used the pager tone on my Dogtra for correcting a loopy sit, instead of a nick, but it is a form of neg. punishment. ...


Lost me there. Could you describe in detail how you used the tone in relation to the dog's behaviors to achieve neg. punishment?

Jere


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jere said:


> Lost me there. Could you describe in detail how you used the tone in relation to the dog's behaviors to achieve neg. punishment?
> 
> Jere


I decided when I first started training I did not want to be nicking my dog so I taught him to sit promptly using the pager button, the same way you would use nick to get a prompt response. Right or wrong that is what I do! JMO


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## RCO (Feb 13, 2010)

How'd you get a pic of my hand?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

RookieTrainer said:


> ... *I wonder if you can "over praise" a dog* that is not as absolutely sure it is right as mine is. Could you praise to the point that the dog needed the praise to really commit to whatever you are asking him to do?


ANYTHING can be over done.
the old true-ism is do not nag your dog.
and the "good, good, good" all the time can be as usless as the underpowered, repeated nick from the collar or "no, no no" from the underpowered handler.

when you praise your dog, praise um good!
when you beat your dog, beat um good!
but the constant, whinny, half sass way, of ether becomes usless background noise that the dog quickly learns to just work through as it does what it wants.
BTW, that tone thing being one or the other???? you can do both. Just like you can praise or beat with your heeling stick.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

CRNAret said:


> Hillmann has a different "happy" bumper now and that is playing catch using a bumper - just a little underhand toss with a soft bumper. It is a lot safer than "happys" and better during very hot weather. My dogs love it.


Trainers have been doing that for decades. The long, repeated fun bumpers that are so common are more for the human than for the dog.

Evan


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

2tall said:


> /\/\/\/\/\!!! This! I just do not Do happy bumpers anymore. I or the dogs stand way too much chance of getting hurt than any benefit that could come from it. I can find lots of other ways to let them release steam or tell them "good dog!"


Isn't that a bit of an over reaction. I'm much more likely to get a bleeding hand like the pic from a 10 week old pup being a pup than tossing a fun bumper for any of my crew. I don't get the increased risk of injury to the dog. I they are going out on a mark full force how is that a lower risk than a fun summer bumper tossed in the pool?


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> ANYTHING can be over done.
> the old true-ism is do not nag your dog.
> and the "good, good, good" all the time can be as usless as the underpowered, repeated nick from the collar or "no, no no" from the underpowered handler.
> 
> ...


I agree on all counts, but it sure is much easier to say than it is to actually do (quit nagging). But I am slowly getting there.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

RookieTrainer said:


> ...
> For those who have trained several dogs, I wonder if you can "over praise" a dog that is not as absolutely sure it is right as mine is. Could you praise to the point that the dog needed the praise to really commit to whatever you are asking him to do?


If by "over praise" you mean a long stream of "Good good good good ..." or such extending well past the behavior event which prompted your praise in the first place; you can bet the farm you can "over praise." After the initial praise (positive reinforcement - hopefully) of the desired behavior, the dog undoubtedly does something else in response and subsequent praise is reinforcing of that behavior and on and on. If these subsequent behaviors are not desired you're creating a sequence of behavior you'll need to change in the future. Short and quick immediately after the desired behavior is all you need.

Jere


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I was really asking about over praising over time, not in response to a particular behavior, but your comment about timing in relation to a behavior - good or bad - is always good to hear and think about again.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Too much praise can make it become meaningless. Same as a come in whistle. It's better to use it when you really need it.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

rboudet said:


> Too much praise can make it become meaningless. Same as a come in whistle. It's better to use it when you really need it.


My thoughts exactly on both counts.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

Years ago, a nationally famous retriever trainer, Cotton Pershall, told me after I had thrown a fun bumper for my dog to never let a dog break once it is steady. I got to thinking about that and came to this conclusion, if I never let my dog break there is no confusion on his part as to whether it was a fun retrieve or not. This keeps everything in black and white, you never leave the line until sent. Years later I attended a Mike Lardy seminar where I was introduced to therapy marks where the dog remained steady but was given an exciting mark like a fun dummy retrieve. So although I never let my dog break, I do incorporate therapy marks into my training.


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## SuperX (Sep 2, 2007)

HB's and "fractures" are simply tools, and really boil down to positive reinforcement when used sparingly. Rex would "fracture" a dog who had a long tough session learning something new, and only after the dog had visibly "got it". Sometimes all it would take to get a softer dog out of a funk was a low "whoop" from Rex after the dog figured it out.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I had some recent exchange regarding the use or perhaps "over use" of Happy Bumpers.

I plugged the phrase "happy bumper" into the advanced search referenced in the sticky note at the top of the page and found this topic originated by Dennis.

I felt it appropriate to bump this to the top.

Interestingly, one of the participants used the term "junk food" in this discussion. Today I referenced "happy Bumpers" to one person as the prospect of giving ice cream to a picky eater child before each meal. This could lead to the child balking at the nutritional components of the meal. 

Why eat the brussel sprouts when you already got fed the ice cream?

Food for thought....excuse the pun.

Chris


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Good read forwarded it to a few of my training partners, I don't use them either, the spinning, sharp turns and sudden stops are only trouble as far as I'm concerned.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

FinnLandR said:


> Because I happen to like brussel spouts....
> 
> I don't use fun bumpers with Tonka because he is loose enough already due to our limited training time. He needs to keep his head on straight.


You might want to think in just the opposite terms and try to teach him the correct responses when he's at his "loosest".

I never thought about that concept until a day when I was making an effort to bring a dog down a bit before an odor imprinting exercise. I was just tired of her pulling my arm off and wanted her to calm down and listen. I also thought she would do better at the exercise, and she probably would have but my boss at the time told me to let her be high... 

Later I asked why and what he said made a lot of sense. "She has to learn to think when she is that excited." 

Based on his instruction and the statement I believe he meant "If we never train the dog when they are hyper excited, they won't be able to perform when they are." 

"Happy bumpers" can be valuable to build or maintain drive either right before or in the middle of a drill using static objects. T work is perhaps the place they seem to make the most sense.

No different than giving a dog a few treats simply for paying attention prior to starting a more complex exercise.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

I don't throw happy bumpers. It can cause the dog to get hurt.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

FinnLandR said:


> While I agree with your theory, I disagree with this last statement. It is different, as treats are not likely to cause a knee to blow or tendons to tear from a rapid directional change.
> 
> I think there are better ways to achieve the same goal. For my boy, a good chest rub and "Good boy" gets just as much of a response as fun bumper.
> 
> To each his own, however.


A chest rub can not get the same neurological response as chasing a bumper Cory, unless you very carefully paired it with a chase.

If you rubbed his chest then immediately threw a bumper enough times, the chest rub would become predictive and the neurological response would still take place (think Pavlov). The chest rub alone won't get the same hormonal response (I don't think). 

I obviously respect anyone's decision not to risk injury to their dog though.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> A chest rub can not get the same neurological response as chasing a bumper Cory, unless you very carefully paired it with a chase.
> 
> If you rubbed his chest then immediately threw a bumper enough times, the chest rub would become predictive and the neurological response would still take place (think Pavlov). The chest rub alone won't get the same hormonal response (I don't think).
> 
> I obviously respect anyone's decision not to risk injury to their dog though.


One thing that was mentioned in the start of this thread was the notion of doing a "happy bumper" to induce prey drive, using an orange bumper and throwing into some cover. One thought is that this is less likely to result in the extreme stopping and turning that could result from a white bumper on a mowed lawn.


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## sir big spur (Apr 15, 2014)

Would you classify "fun" or "happy" bumpers as those that I throw for my 4 month old pup? The kind where she breaks and rolls/flips over the bumper to grab it and bring it back? I realize much at this age is not yet taught but learned but just wanted to verify. My apologies if this was addressed. Great read though and puts things into perspective for a newbie.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I make my dog sit and watch happy bumpers, she is never allowed to chase it in while bumper is in the air. She has too much drive and tends to break on honor and that is without her ever having REAL HAPPY BUMPERS


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Just curious: what exactly about happy bumpers is so bad? I read about the potential for injury but it doesn't seem to be any higher than lots of other things we do with our dogs. For those of you who don't do happy bumpers, do you skip other things that create sharp turns, etc, like pile work, wagon wheel drills--even regular marks?

I really can't see the difference whether I hand throw my dog a bumper or send him on a wagon wheel lining drill in terms of potential for injury.


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

Nothing bad but 2 things I could do without. 

1.) The dog is learning absolutely nothing. Just make it sit in front of you and toss the bumper over one side and give a cast. This helps with steady, sitting straight and taking different angles casts even with a pup. 

2.) I always work on being steady. This just gives them permission to break or creep.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> Just curious: what exactly about happy bumpers is so bad? I read about the potential for injury but it doesn't seem to be any higher than lots of other things we do with our dogs. For those of you who don't do happy bumpers, do you skip other things that create sharp turns, etc, like pile work, wagon wheel drills--even regular marks?
> 
> I really can't see the difference whether I hand throw my dog a bumper or send him on a wagon wheel lining drill in terms of potential for injury.


I think Dennis V's initial post to start this thread makes it pretty clear. 

I referenced the idea of the happy bumper possibly being overused and turning into "junk food". 

I believe it certainly can have its applications and benefits. But I believe many people overuse them. I think they can do more harm than good.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I think Dennis V's initial post to start this thread makes it pretty clear.
> 
> I referenced the idea of the happy bumper possibly being overused and turning into "junk food".
> 
> I believe it certainly can have its applications and benefits. But I believe many people overuse them. I think they can do more harm than good.


Chris, I do get the "junk food" analogy and that they can be over used--it is the injury potential part I don't understand.

Personally, I do like the use of them at the beginning of a training session--particularly yard work--to get the dog in the frame of mind, a la Hillmann. 

What I don't get is how folks talk about the potential for injury. Perhaps I throw them differently but I see no way that they could be any more injurious than other retrieving stuff. The dog running wide open to a pile stops and twists quickly as does the dog that is running full bore to a 200 yard mark and suddenly sees the bird right in front of his feet. What am I missing?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> Chris, I do get the "junk food" analogy and that they can be over used--it is the injury potential part I don't understand.
> 
> Personally, I do like the use of them at the beginning of a training session--particularly yard work--to get the dog in the frame of mind, a la Hillmann.
> 
> What I don't get is how folks talk about the potential for injury. Perhaps I throw them differently but I see no way that they could be any more injurious than other retrieving stuff. The dog running wide open to a pile stops and twists quickly as does the dog that is running full bore to a 200 yard mark and suddenly sees the bird right in front of his feet. What am I missing?


I did not bump it to the top for injury concerns. 

I am not suggesting that you're missing anything. 

If you're happy and your dog's happy, then keep on keeping on!


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

Then the person winds up just to hit the dog in the side of their head with the bumper.


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## Bob Agnor (Nov 25, 2004)

As my ol training partner John Fallon used to say " JUST SAY NO TO HAPPY BUMPERS"

Miss ya John


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