# First wolf in CA since 1924



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Kind of exciting news for us who live in rural NE California. A lone gray wolf ( a wild male about 2 1/2 years old) left a pack in Oregon and started traveling south and then crossed into N. California -- first known wild wolf in CA since 1924.

He has a GPS collar; biologists call him OR7. But he now has the new name of "Journey".

The CA Dept of Fish and Game is tracking him -- monitoring his every move. They say he has been in Lassen County, CA, since Jan. 17. If you go to dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/nongame/wolf/ you can read a story and see a map to follow his travels and stops. Or, if you Google "Wolf in California" you'll get hits on a handful of stories about him. 

For awhile, it looked like he was crossing Lassen County and heading toward Nevada. However, he changed his mind and backtracked.

Today (Fri., Jan 27) the DFG map on their website shows he now is in western Lassen County. It looks like he has stopped somewhere around Eagle Lake. 

Exciting for us. We live about 20 miles from Eagle Lake so he could be within 20 miles from our house. A wolf can travel 20 miles in no time at all. With that thought in mind, I'll be looking out our windows to keep an eye out for him. Directly behind our house are miles and miles of forested BLM land. We'll be keeping an eye on the dogs, too. 

Helen


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Really cool news! Better watch your dogs and cats though.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Just read another article about this young male wolf. Oregon had a few wolves move into the NE part of the state in 1999 from Idaho. Oregon now has 4 small families in 4 different locations. OR7 was born in Oregon and belonged to a small family pack in Wallowa Co.; he was caught when he was about a year old and the GPS collar was put on him. (Oregon is monitoring these small wolf families.)

Some time last September, OR7 broke away from his family and started his trek. Just got an email from my niece who lives in Oregon. His travels have been well covered by Oregon newspapers and TV. School children are following him; a contest was held -- that's how he got his name "Journey". It is believed that he is looking for a mate. 

Some estimates say that he has traveled well over 500 miles. He meandered down through eastern Oregon to the Klamath Falls area. Great expectations... would he enter California? He did which became an historical event. He is being carefully monitored to know his whereabouts and for his well-being.

Alas, he is not going to find a mate in No. California. But he is making history in his search and now school children all over the world are following him and rooting for him. 

Helen


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

helencalif said:


> It is believed that he is looking for a mate.
> 
> Some estimates say that he has traveled well over 500 miles.


He's kinda picky..... can't find a local gal....... traveling all that way!  And for no reason. 

talk about a lone wolf.... 

Kind of a cool story.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

JusticeDog said:


> He's kinda picky..... can't find a local gal....... traveling all that way!  And for no reason.
> 
> talk about a lone wolf....
> 
> Kind of a cool story.


Looking for a "California Girl"..LOL! 

A report and pictures of "Journey" were on television here a couple of weeks ago..a news special of interest. Hope he finds the right girl and lives a good long life ..grandchildren etc!!

Nice to see something more of him here on RTF.

Judy


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

That story is sooo neat


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

I was just thinking-will Journey back track to an area where he will find the "girl" of his dreams?


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

He must be one homely boy. lol


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Me personally I could live withOUT any wolves in the world. Especially with some of the Alaskan stories of them grabbing pets straight off leashes. No thank you! Kill em all!


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## Duxbwar (Jun 23, 2009)

You think it's kinda neat until he come across you and your dog walking in the hills. We have a season on them here in Idaho now. The one my friend shot was 195 pounds.Guys with hounds have had there whole pack of dogs killed by them while tracking, even before the owners could get to them.......keep your dogs on a tight leash.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Now now, Jeff, be Kind. This is one lone wolf traveling to relocate and find a mate. He won't be finding one in California or in Nevada. Right now surviving the winter is his main obstacle. Some at the DFG think he might meander back into Oregon. 

Oregon has only 20-24 wolves (4 family packs) who live in the NE part of the state. He has a long trip to get back home. His best bet would be to go to Idaho, but he doesn't know that.

Let's enjoy Journey's journey... it is an historic event. 

Helen


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

Here is a great resource about wolves: http://www.wolf.org/wolves/index.asp We live in Ely, home of The International Wolf Center. Knowledge helps separate the facts from fiction. Boundary Waters Labradors happily exists right between several packs of wolves. They keep to themselves. We almost 'never' see them and count it a privilege when we do, the sightings that we have experienced have been along the road when we happen to catch one crossing, usually at least a mile from our home...one time within a 1/4 mile. However, all our wildlife is prolific around here, so the balance is good regarding the wolves food sources. They have never bothered us. I was told they would not enter a fenced area for their kill. I feel our dogs are safe in the housing we have provided for them. We do keep tight controls and a constant watch on our dogs; not because we are afraid of the big bad wolf, rather we understand that to be responsible dog ownership. We don't live in fear of our good neighbors - the wolves. They can teach us a lot about our domesticated dogs - it's all in the family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog
There is a Facebook page for comments, too. http://www.facebook.com/InternationalWolfCenter?sk=wall


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Bravo Margo!!
I got to see a pack of wolves run over the top of a hill in Canada back in February 1982. A real privilege. Anyone living in the range of an apex predator needs to be mindful that their pets might be considered prey. In south Texas we have to be aware of alligators. You don't let your dog swim in just any body of water. Javelinas aren't predators but can really tear up a dog, so we have to be aware of them and not let our dogs go running off into the monte alone. Folks with ankle biters need to be aware of hawks, eagles, and owls. Honestly, dogs face a great deal more danger from cars, spilled anti-freeze, carelessly used rat poison, etc. than from a wolf. Magnificent creatures. The world would be diminished without them.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

helencalif said:


> Now now, Jeff, be Kind. This is one lone wolf traveling to relocate and find a mate. He won't be finding one in California or in Nevada. Right now surviving the winter is his main obstacle. Some at the DFG think he might meander back into Oregon.
> 
> Oregon has only 20-24 wolves (4 family packs) who live in the NE part of the state. He has a long trip to get back home. His best bet would be to go to Idaho, but he doesn't know that.
> 
> ...


Lol. I am I am!! One wolf is neat but a whole pack isn't. They are making a come back. Coyotes are bad enough, these things are coyotes on steroids! I really hope they never make a huge come back after reading what they can do to an elk heard. We already have cougars, coyotes, bobcats which is enough for me! I have a ton of respect for mother nature and how the world goes round, just hope one wolf doesnt turn into a pile of them and before long we will be doing depredation hunts on wolves. I can see it already!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

I've been following the story of Journey as I still read the Sacramento paper every day and they've done a few stories on him. I think it's neat that he's in CA and, at one point, was within just a short distance of the place the last known wolf was caught by a trapper in 1924. 

I understand the fear of wolves taking over and decimating deer and elk herds. When I was still in CA I saw the damage the mountain lions were doing to the deer herds after hunting was stopped on them. There are a LOT of mountain lions there now and every year or so there are stories of people attacked and/or killed by them. In the early/mid 90's there was a woman killed and half eaten by a lion while running on a popular trail along the American river canyon, just outside the town I lived in.

All that said, the "kill them all" mentality is ridiculous. It's one thing if animal life dies out as a normal part of evolution. It's another when they are exterminated. Wolves were around long before us and deserve to reclaim their former territories. They are a part of our history in the West. I also agree with planned and controlled measures to keep their populations in check when they start threatening people, pets and livestock. Just as we should with cougars, coyotes etc...


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## Eli M (Jan 24, 2012)

JeffLusk said:


> Me personally I could live withOUT any wolves in the world. Especially with some of the Alaskan stories of them grabbing pets straight off leashes. No thank you! Kill em all!


Na, thats not cool, everything has its place in nature, but in moderation. We are dealing with an explosion of Coyotes in Ontario. Pets being stolen off the leash, out of yards are reported weekly if not daily, small game pops are down, deer numbers are effected, but I dont want them gone, just culled down huge. I dont see a problem with a lone wolf or small pack reestablishing traditional territory. 

As for reporting his every move, maybe they shouldnt report his where abouts until the next day, keep the public a day or two behind. 15 yrs ago in Saskatchewan the media was tracking a Cow Elk, same thing, daily reports, school kids tracking, etc. Then a Native followed and found her and shot her. Might as well've had a neon sign on her


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Just for a little perspective. These were taken in Idaho.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Eli M said:


> Na, thats not cool, everything has its place in nature, but in moderation. We are dealing with an explosion of Coyotes in Ontario. Pets being stolen off the leash, out of yards are reported weekly if not daily, small game pops are down, deer numbers are effected, but I dont want them gone, just culled down huge. I dont see a problem with a lone wolf or small pack reestablishing traditional territory.
> 
> As for reporting his every move, maybe they shouldnt report his where abouts until the next day, keep the public a day or two behind. 15 yrs ago in Saskatchewan the media was tracking a Cow Elk, same thing, daily reports, school kids tracking, etc. Then a Native followed and found her and shot her. Might as well've had a neon sign on her


They are not giving up to the minute updates on his locations. The updates are a few days behind and the locations are generalities, so as to protect him from just what you referred to.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

JDogger said:


> Just for a little perspective. These were taken in Idaho.


Soooo..what are they? 

And why are you posting them on this interesting thread...


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

JDogger said:


> Just for a little perspective. These were taken in Idaho.


 

I got that same email this past week. It definitely puts into perspective just how big these critters are.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

HPL said:


> Bravo Margo!!
> I got to see a pack of wolves run over the top of a hill in Canada back in February 1982. A real privilege. Anyone living in the range of an apex predator needs to be mindful that their pets might be considered prey. In south Texas we have to be aware of alligators. You don't let your dog swim in just any body of water. Javelinas aren't predators but can really tear up a dog, so we have to be aware of them and not let our dogs go running off into the monte alone. Folks with ankle biters need to be aware of hawks, eagles, and owls. Honestly, dogs face a great deal more danger from cars, spilled anti-freeze, carelessly used rat poison, etc. than from a wolf. Magnificent creatures. The world would be diminished without them.


Javelinas...? 

Thanks, 

Judy


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## Eli M (Jan 24, 2012)

JDogger said:


> Just for a little perspective. *These were taken in Idaho.*


Where they? They've been taking in Edson Alberta, Gogoma, Ontario, BC, Idaho, and the wolf weighs 135lbs to 243lbs, the guy holding it is 6' 5" to 5'7", and the wolf was shot dragging a mature cow off its feet and breaking its neck, or over bait for bears, all depending on the story. this pic has been surfing around since 2008, google Giant Alberta Wolf to see some of the stories.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Eli M said:


> Where they? They've been taking in Edson Alberta, Gogoma, Ontario, BC, Idaho, and the wolf weighs 135lbs to 243lbs, the guy holding it is 6' 5" to 5'7", and the wolf was shot dragging a mature cow off its feet and breaking its neck, or over bait for bears, all depending on the story. this pic has been surfing around since 2008, google Giant Alberta Wolf to see some of the stories.


No doubt, have been sent it many times in various emails from anti wolf people.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Eli M said:


> As for reporting his every move, maybe they shouldnt report his where abouts until the next day, keep the public a day or two behind. /QUOTE]
> 
> That's what the DFG is doing. They know exactly where he is daily, but they wait and report an approximate location a day or so later and usually after he has moved from that approximate location.
> 
> Helen


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

The problem is the wolf reintroduction has been GROSSLY mismanaged by the federal government. In addition, the anti's continue to tie up their proper management in the courts, while they devastate elk, deer and moose herds. FYI - wolves have already migrated into N. Nevada from Idaho.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

JDogger said:


> Just for a little perspective. These were taken in Idaho.


 
Awesome! Those are some big dogs. Not a fan of wolves or mountain lions. Glad there is a season on them now!


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

About mountain lions in California ... I can remember when CA passed the law protecting them. Hunters predicted what would happen when protected -- the deer population would go down and there would be higher incidence of attacks on humans.

We live in the mountains beside Lake Almanor in NE California 15 miles from Chester. No town, just houses (mostly summer homes), a state highway, and the county road where we live. Behind our house are miles and miles of BLM forests and some undeveloped forest land owned by P G and E (Pacific Gas and Electric).

Because we live in a mountain area, I am always looking out our windows in the back of the house for wild unfriendly critters. (We have lots of friendly ones; it's the unfriendly I keep watch for.)

About 5 years ago we attended a local fishing organization dinner. The local game warden happened to sit at the same table so Helen starts grilling him about mountain lions in the area because there had been newspaper articles about them attacking horses in corrals right next to barns and not far from houses.

"So, are there many mountain lions around Lake Almanor", I asked.

He paused a moment and then said, "At least 80 we know about and track". It was mighty quiet at the table after that. 

Helen


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## FishnShoot (May 14, 2010)

JeffLusk said:


> Me personally I could live withOUT any wolves in the world. Especially with some of the Alaskan stories of them grabbing pets straight off leashes. No thank you! Kill em all!


LOL, if we killed all critters that might harm us or our pets, it would be a pretty lonely world. 

Not to say that I agree with the wolf reintroduction, but lets put it in perspective - a tick poses a bigger threat to our pets than wolves do in any state in the lower 48. There are plenty of stories of coyotes snatching dogs off leashes. If I remember right, Jessica Simpson had her dog carried off by a coyote in her own fenced in yard in a very nice gated community a few years back!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

helencalif said:


> Now now, Jeff, be Kind. This is one lone wolf traveling to relocate and find a mate. He won't be finding one in California or in Nevada. Right now surviving the winter is his main obstacle. Some at the DFG think he might meander back into Oregon.
> 
> Oregon has only 20-24 wolves (4 family packs) who live in the NE part of the state. He has a long trip to get back home. His best bet would be to go to Idaho, but he doesn't know that.
> 
> ...


Exactly and wanna take a wild guess how much trouble, time and money they have cost us already. These damn things are satan on 4 feet......

On the other hand, bought time we gave California something back....


/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

JDogger said:


> Just for a little perspective. These were taken in Idaho.


Finally the perfectly trained dog...

/Paul


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

This is one of those threads could go back and forth for longer than I want. I still stand in my position and respect everyone elses. I see no good from the re introduction of wolves and that is my opinion. As for the tick statement that is just silly. We treat our dogs for ticks before they can be hurt from it. You can't stop a wolf. My 2 cents and I'm sticking to my pennies. If I ever have the chance to legally kill one I will.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> This is one of those threads could go back and forth for longer than I want. I still stand in my position and respect everyone elses. I see no good from the re introduction of wolves and that is my opinion. As for the tick statement that is just silly. We treat our dogs for ticks before they can be hurt from it. You can't stop a wolf. My 2 cents and I'm sticking to my pennies. If I ever have the chance to legally kill one I will.


Jeff, I grew up on a farm. We had to deal with predators on a daily basis. I will probably never have much sympathy for a killing machine that indiscriminately kills everything in sight. City folks don't understand how much work goes into making a $1.00 on a farm. its easy for them to be sympathetic to an animal like wolf. The folks on this forum probably don't want to here me say that the dogs that caused us the most problems were retrievers. Can't count the amount of dogs we shot messing with the herd. 

/Paul


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Jeff, I grew up on a farm. We had to deal with predators on a daily basis. I will probably never have much sympathy for a killing machine that indiscriminately kills everything in sight. City folks don't understand how much work goes into making a $1.00 on a farm. its easy for them to be sympathetic to an animal like wolf. The folks on this forum probably don't want to here me say that the dogs that caused us the most problems were retrievers. Can't count the amount of dogs we shot messing with the herd.
> 
> /Paul


Talked to a rancher in Oregon this year and a single coyote causes quite a loss. That is their life and I myself will never understand the full amount of predators, but without humans hunting them.. I don't even want to think of the numbers they would roam in. For the record I wouldn't kill illegally and there is a purpose in my eyes to killing predators.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> Talked to a rancher in Oregon this year and a single coyote causes quite a loss. That is their life and I myself will never understand the full amount of predators, but without humans hunting them.. I don't even want to think of the numbers they would roam in. For the record I wouldn't kill illegally and there is a purpose in my eyes to killing predators.


I'd never shoot anything Illegally.....

/grin

/Paul


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Jeff, I grew up on a farm. We had to deal with predators on a daily basis. I will probably never have much sympathy for a killing machine that indiscriminately kills everything in sight. City folks don't understand how much work goes into making a $1.00 on a farm. its easy for them to be sympathetic to an animal like wolf. The folks on this forum probably don't want to here me say that the dogs that caused us the most problems were retrievers. Can't count the amount of dogs we shot messing with the herd.
> 
> /Paul


I know exactly what you're talking about and I agree about no sympathy for indiscriminate killers. I grew up on a farm and remember one morning going out to feed the sheep. 5 were dead, 3 were torn up so bad we had to put them down and my Dad and I had to wade into the pond to pull out 2 that had obviously gone in trying to escape and were in such a state of shock they wouldn't move. And, yes, the dogs were retrievers more times then not. Prey drive is prey drive.


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

The meanist dogs that I have seen have sometimes been a shepherd and hound cross. Next in line have been pointer crosses. I won't say that some small breeds and their crosses have not been mean but they aren't as strong socan't do as much dmage given the same time frame. Coyote and dog crosses should all killed. I am a farmer's kid and we learned things first hand.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> This is one of those threads could go back and forth for longer than I want. I still stand in my position and respect everyone elses. I see no good from the re-introduction of wolves and that is my opinion. As for the tick statement that is just silly. We treat our dogs for ticks before they can be hurt from it. You can't stop a wolf. My 2 cents and I'm sticking to my pennies. If I ever have the chance to legally kill one I will.


Jeff - I feel your pain. Not everyone on this forum is a big game enthusiast as you and me; it is a retriever forum. We track, and know, the true effects of the grossly mismanaged wolf pack. In addition, a stronger strain of reintro'd wolves. And I do not speak from the couch, I back it up with my volunteer work for sheep and other wildlife and their habitat. The single worse thing humans do (with dogs too) is humanize their existence. I do not object to wolves, but I do object to their blatant mismanagement. The average American doesn't have a clue of the battleground and re-intro-destruction..


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Are those pics for real?


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

duk4me said:


> Are those pics for real?


Whether PS'd or the man is a runt, that is their true size.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

kjrice said:


> Whether PS'd or the man is a runt, that is their true size.


Wow I'm just trying to catch the skunks digging under my chain walls and killing my chickens.

Our coyotes around here are about 30 lbs. Those are scary.

I've got mixed feelings on this one but I certainly can understand if they were killing my livestock I would want to eradicate them.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

JDogger said:


> Just for a little perspective. These were taken in Idaho.


WOW! I didn't realize wolves were that big . I was thinking they were just a little bigger than a coyote.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

mlp said:


> WOW! I didn't realize wolves were that big . I was thinking they were just a little bigger than a coyote.


Wolves are big but the one poser might have been a cast member from the Yellow Brick Road scene on Wizard of Oz. Something seems off but not too far from the truth. My guess is PS'd but they run anywhere from 80-140lbs but there are some much bigger. The worst thing with wolves is they will sport kill.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

mlp said:


> WOW! I didn't realize wolves were that big . I was thinking they were just a little bigger than a coyote.


Those are BIG wolves. Up here a 200 lb wolf is huge. But they happen. 

I think this is the same wolf in all 3 photos. Seems a little to staged to me.


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## batcave4 (Jan 27, 2008)

Uncontrolled wolf packs in WI are finally becoming a risk that is being addressed as they have been delisted.

Its an issue that has united Ds and Rs in the State.

http://www.thehuntandfishblog.com/?p=436

http://www.wisconsinagconnection.com/story-state.php?Id=1544&yr=2011


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## Eli M (Jan 24, 2012)

I grew up on a farm with sheep and goats as well as small animals and birds, I worked as a teenager on sheep farms, and some of my good friends parents own these farms. Here we have to deal with only coyotes and crows ( with new lambs) as predators. I find the worst time of yr was always August, the coyotes were training the pups to hunt big game. Ive seen full grown ewes killed, throats slit, zero feeding done on them, cornered in a fence corner and gateway, right under a barn yard light. I've seen 3 minth old lambs mauled and torn to death, so Im not a city kid that doesnt get it at all, lol. But I do see the need for Apex predators in the ecosystem.


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## batcave4 (Jan 27, 2008)

Some good info from the WI DNR website.

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/dogdepred.htm


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

JeffLusk said:


> This is one of those threads could go back and forth for longer than I want. I still stand in my position and respect everyone elses. I see no good from the re introduction of wolves and that is my opinion. As for the tick statement that is just silly. We treat our dogs for ticks before they can be hurt from it. You can't stop a wolf. My 2 cents and I'm sticking to my pennies. If I ever have the chance to legally kill one I will.


Agree completely. I do not understand people who say let nature take its course when at the same time they are talking about re-introduced animals. Wolves are savage killers, they kill for sport, don't let anyone tell you any different.


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

JeffLusk said:


> This is one of those threads could go back and forth for longer than I want. I still stand in my position and respect everyone elses. I see no good from the re introduction of wolves and that is my opinion. As for the tick statement that is just silly. We treat our dogs for ticks before they can be hurt from it. You can't stop a wolf. My 2 cents and I'm sticking to my pennies. If I ever have the chance to legally kill one I will.


X2 Jeff, very well said


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Rumor has it that wolves have been re-introduced in our area. Several farmers have seen the group of three. They are not looking forward to calving season. Supposedly they are being introduced to help with the overpopulation of deer.....maybe give out more permits?????

I'm afraid of the Big Bad wolf Regards,

Aaron*


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## justin300mag (May 28, 2010)

I just want to remind all the tree hugging hippies that think these creatures have their place and they belong here that you could not be more wrong. These wolves are not the gray wolves of the past. The wolves that were shoved down our throats are canadian wolves which are much bigger and more agressive. They dont belong here, they were put here by humans and I can guarantee you 9 out of 10 people that live here and have to deal with the devastation they leave behind dont want them. I say we round them all up and turn them loose in california, new york, and washinton D.C. and see how good of an idea they think this was then.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

What arrogance! To call people "tree hugging hippies" that simply want to preserve the natural order of things! I don't love coyotes, lions, wolves, etc. but come on! They are and have always been a part of our country. Do you treat the animals just as you have the native americans? I am beginning not to like this forum so much if people are so bigoted and racist as they appear.


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## justin300mag (May 28, 2010)

You have missed the whole point. They are not natural!!!!!!! this is not what was here from the beginning they are as natural as a dam of a reservoir. put here by man. nothing against hippies but these are not natural.


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## Certainty (Apr 17, 2008)

2tall said:


> What arrogance! To call people "tree hugging hippies" that simply want to preserve the natural order of things! I don't love coyotes, lions, wolves, etc. but come on! They are and have always been a part of our country. Do you treat the animals just as you have the native americans? I am beginning not to like this forum so much if people are so bigoted and racist as they appear.


Have to agree on this. I understand having to keep them in control and have no problem with it. But I don't agree with eliminating them all together. It is wrong.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

howard, that probably isn't a staged photo of one wolf, I've seen them, and most the guy's from alaska don't beleive it untill they see one for there own eyes. There true non-native giants.

These wolfs are a terrible problem in the North West, because there being mismanaged, my guess is california will be even worse than the northwest.

Take pictures of your deer and elk, it won't be long untill you don't see many anymore, and as far as your horses and cows, well some will get thinned out by them for sure, but unless your personally affected you probably won't care as long as you get to see a wolf on the news at night. They will kill your dogs if they can get to them, but I'm sure they don't sleep out on the porch.

I guess when it get's bad you'll pick your side, cloven animals and pets, wolfs, or few of both.


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

Aren't wolves indiscriminate killers that kill just for the sake of killing, basically for the fun of it? Even if they arent' hungry? In the wild they are really something to see. But the bad thing about them is, there is no way you can contain them. They do range and obviously range far. How can you collar that and keep it at bay to "manage" it?


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

Clint Watts said:


> Agree completely. I do not understand people who say let nature take its course when at the same time they are talking about re-introduced animals. Wolves are savage killers, they kill for sport, don't let anyone tell you any different.


You are so correct. I'm afraid that many who say " let nature take it's course" do not understand what that will be if man does not help control things. Of course as long as the bad things do not cause them any 
problems they will not see.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

I apologize for posting these pictures. They were sent to me in an email that I'm sure many have recieved. There has been debate over wether or not these were real. I do not know. Internet opinions vary. 
A little goggle has led me to believe the images have been skillfully PS'ed. The fact that the photos have been claimed by various poster's lends credence to their falseness. 
However, the problems with the re-introduction of wolves has been noted in many locals, not the least the Mexican grey wolf in NM.

I am neither pro nor con wolves.

Caparocita Roja regards,  JD


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Q: To date, how many packs of wolves in the West have turned to killing Livestock?

A: Every single one of them.

One of the facts about Wolf reintroduction that the USFWS and Enviro groups don't like to mention.

It will only get worse as they continue to deplete the wild game populations within their territories.


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## Eli M (Jan 24, 2012)

justin300mag said:


> I just want to remind all the *tree hugging hippies that think these creatures have their place* and they belong here that you could not be more wrong. These wolves are not the gray wolves of the past. The wolves that were shoved down our throats are canadian wolves which are much bigger and more agressive. They dont belong here, they were put here by humans and I can guarantee you 9 out of 10 people that live here and have to deal with the devastation they leave behind dont want them. I say we round them all up and turn them loose in california, new york, and washinton D.C. and see how good of an idea they think this was then.


I hope that you realize Im not part of the "tree hunting hippies" group, I'd like to tell you that sitting on my porch right now are the Skull mounts of 3 monster bucks ( 3 of the 6 deer I shot in the last 2 yrs), sitting marinating in the fridge are 3 snowshoe rabbit ( varying hare) that i shot last week, I have a freezer full of Venision, goose, duck, grouse, Ive shot and Im heading out now to take a 15 yr old kid on his first coyote hunt on his family Dairy Farm, where the coyotes are getting too close to the barn yard. Tree hugging hippie?, only hugging the tree when it gets too windy and Im in the tree stand


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## Shelby (Jul 20, 2009)

justin300mag said:


> I just want to remind all the tree hugging hippies that think these creatures have their place and they belong here that you could not be more wrong. These wolves are not the gray wolves of the past. The wolves that were shoved down our throats are canadian wolves which are much bigger and more agressive. They dont belong here, they were put here by humans and I can guarantee you 9 out of 10 people that live here and have to deal with the devastation they leave behind dont want them. I say we round them all up and turn them loose in california, new york, and washinton D.C. and see how good of an idea they think this was then.




I would agree with this. We didnt want them to begin with. We had several packs before they turned the new ones loose. I would bet you have an existing pack in California. They are nothing but trouble. Come get the ones we have and take them with you


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Clint Watts said:


> Agree completely. I do not understand people who say let nature take its course when at the same time they are talking about re-introduced animals. Wolves are savage killers, they kill for sport, don't let anyone tell you any different.


To all who seem to think that these wolves are something new to the areas into which they have been RE-introduced, you should do a little research on the historical range of C. lupus. The grey wolf was at one time the most widely distributed mammal in the world ranging over most of North America from the arctic to just about Mexico City and from California to the Atlantic with the exception of the deep south where it was replaced by the Red Wolf. The same species C. lupus also covered most of Europe so to say that somehow this is bringing in an animal that didn't live in the area in the past is simply not correct. Canadian wolf, Arctic wolf, Timber wolf, etc. ALL the same animal. 

As to killing for sport, I can't really say what is going on in the minds of wolves but if you really want to see an animal that kills for sport, look in the mirror. I don't shoot birds because I HAVE to to feed my family, I do it because I enjoy the experience. I believe that the same is true for most of you on this forum. 

As one of those tree huggers (apparently) I am perfectly happy for some of my tax money to be diverted from wellfare to compensate stockmen for their losses from wolves. Are they a danger to your dogs, clearly. Can you minimize that risk, certainly. I scout any pond my dog might swim in very (very) carefully these days as we are having a real resurgence in the gator population. I know folks whose bird dogs have been torn up by javelinas (a pack of javelinas is certainly capable of killing a dog) so I keep my dog in sight when we are out in the chaparral. Could a car hit and kill my dog? You bet, so I keep my pup fenced in or on a lead where he might encounter a car. 

As long as the true apex predators exist, there will be conflicts between them and man, but I believe that the world would be diminished without them.


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## Shelby (Jul 20, 2009)

As one of those tree huggers (apparently) I am perfectly happy for some of my tax money to be diverted from wellfare to compensate stockmen for their losses from wolves.


The one bad thing about this is the rancher needs to whitness the wolves killing. I know of alot of ranchers that have had over half of their stock killed with zero compensation.

I know guys that have had their dogs killed on the front porch and zero compensation.

Things dont work the way you thank they should


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

HPL said:


> To all who seem to think that these wolves are something new to the areas into which they have been RE-introduced, you should do a little research on the historical range of C. lupus. The grey wolf was at one time the most widely distributed mammal in the world ranging over most of North America from the arctic to just about Mexico City and from California to the Atlantic with the exception of the deep south where it was replaced by the Red Wolf. The same species C. lupus also covered most of Europe so to say that somehow this is bringing in an animal that didn't live in the area in the past is simply not correct. Canadian wolf, Arctic wolf, Timber wolf, etc. ALL the same animal.
> 
> As to killing for sport, I can't really say what is going on in the minds of wolves but if you really want to see an animal that kills for sport, look in the mirror. I don't shoot birds because I HAVE to to feed my family, I do it because I enjoy the experience. I believe that the same is true for most of you on this forum.
> 
> ...


+1 
Wow, I can not believe the things I am hearing here.  
I have spent a long time argueing that hunters are the true wildlife enthusiast, that our money and passion are a benefit to the whole environment. I have a freezer, also full of venison, duck, quail, pheasan...
Are you going to put all of nature in a box? Box it out? Keep only the ones that we can eat and get rid of the rest?
Coyotes don't belong here in the east either, guys, but they wouldn't be here if the wovles and mountain lions hadn't been eliminated. We opened up the door to a bigger sneaker smaller more city savvy predator, and no one even learned a lesson from it.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

I think some of you need to spend some time on google researching and checking your "facts". First look into the historical range of Grey Wolves, then the reason for their population decline. 

I think some of you sound like typical alarmists that use sound bites and scare tactics to push your agenda and then resort to condescension and name calling when your arguments spring leaks.

I have not read where anyone suggests that wolves, or any other predator, should not be managed as needed to protect farmers and ranchers.

By listening to some of you we should exterminate every mountain lion, coyote, wolf, fox and any other predator that competes with you by hunting the same animals you want to hunt.

I am no where near a tree hugger. As stated previously I grew up on a farm and also worked on a large sheep and cattle ranch during/after high school and have witnessed the impact on deer herds in areas I and my family hunted for generations so I know the destruction predators can do.

I am not so selfish to think that these animals don't have a right to live as they have for generations. I do think it needs to take place with sound management plans in place and I do have concerns about the states ability and willingness to carry them out. I just don't think the answer is extermination.


.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Having spent twelve years living in northern wolf country, dealing with wolf problems...and thinking I'd moved away from them, only to find they're now moving south and there's a pack within howling range of my house...

I follow a "Live and let live" policy. As long as they don't bother me or mine, I leave them alone. However, if any predator (with the exception of birds of prey) messes with me or my animals or my place, they will be dealt with. I will defend what is mine the same way they will defend what is theirs.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Having spent twelve years living in northern wolf country, dealing with wolf problems...and thinking I'd moved away from them, only to find they're now moving south and there's a pack within howling range of my house...
> 
> I follow a "Live and let live" policy. As long as they don't bother me or mine, I leave them alone. However, if any predator (with the exception of birds of prey) messes with me or my animals or my place, they will be dealt with. I will defend what is mine the same way they will defend what is theirs.


Very well said.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Having spent twelve years living in northern wolf country, dealing with wolf problems...and thinking I'd moved away from them, only to find they're now moving south and there's a pack within howling range of my house...
> 
> I follow a "Live and let live" policy. As long as they don't bother me or mine, I leave them alone. However, if any predator (with the exception of birds of prey) messes with me or my animals or my place, they will be dealt with. I will defend what is mine the same way they will defend what is theirs.


If that's the way you feel, what's so special about birds of prey?


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## batcave4 (Jan 27, 2008)

State DNR and USFW budgets are tight enough already without having the added cost of conpensating people for having their animals killed by a reintroduced species.

As far as an Apex species that occupy that link in the ecosystem we already have one, the Human.


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## kims (Jan 9, 2010)

I would recommend if anyone has some extra time for interesting reading "How the Dog became the Dog" by Mark Derr. He makes some novel ideas about how Wolves and Wolf-Dogs interacted and lived along side early Humans and may have even taught us some of our most "Humane" traits of cooperation, society and loyalty. Many of our more "noble" behaviors may not have evolved from our Primate nature but something we may have learned by watching how Wolf packs lived together successfully.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

Wolves are no longer protected in Idaho. Rancher can no longer get money for loss of livestock due to Wolves. I know this first hand. My good friend has a 30,000 acre ranch and has lost over 20 cows this year to them that amounts to around 30 grand. I guess the thing that seperates my friend from quit a few folks is when F&G called him about the huge wintering heards of elk and deer on his ranch he said that his family had been living with them for generations. The wolves they never had until now.Luckily the Goverment trappers and our F&G are working to get rid of them now that the state has control. The thing that makes me madd is the feds put this on the folks that live in these states and you get folks that it does not have any bearing on their life shouting that it is a great idea. I believe in State rights. Our current F&G stance has been to get rid of them. It is costing the state ton's of money. My friend finally got one last week. They have a black female that has taught her pups to kill livestock so now the pack will be shot off.The government trappers encourage hunter not to shoot the collared ones because they are very hard to find. We had one pack that was thought to have died off until they found the pack had traveled over 400 mile. Now that is crazy. In some units our Moose population has declines buy 90%. I do not think we will ever get them under control. Look at the Coyote we hunt them all year no limits and their are still lots of Coyotes. The best way to control them is poison and shooting from the air. With the snow yarding up the Elk and Deer they will be easier to find and that will help Goverment trappers get rid of them. Mild winter sould help Idaho's already poor Elk and Deer numbers but it is going to take several good years to help.


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

For me wolves are not a problem but I think we have a problem with wolf hybreds that seem to be invading our neighborhoods.
I live in a very rural area and one neighbor has a purebred wolf and folks she is no little dog. She has escaped 5 or 6 times and no one knows what she does. My other neighbor just got a wolf,Rotty cross. Both say there dog is the nicest they have ever had but then go on to say ( the breeder told us to be very careful and keep all blood away from him) does that tell you something? The government can't control what these dogs do.
Clay


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

HPL said:


> If that's the way you feel, what's so special about birds of prey?


Well, for one, they're federally protected, with a rather hefty fine for shooting them.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Folks, the purpose of this thread was to talk about an historic event -- the first gray wolf in California since 1924. This is a lone male wolf who traveled from the NE corner of Oregon on a journey to find another pack and/or a mate. If he had traveled a few miles east from where he lived in Wallowa Co., Oregon, to Idaho, he would have found a pack and a mate. Instead, he meandered south through eastern Oregon and crossed into California where he is going to find neither.

Google "Wolves in Oregon". You will find that the state has 4 known wolf "family packs" for a total of around 23 wolves in Oregon (average 5 to 7 in a pack, not all related). It is believed the original wolves now living in these packs migrated from Idaho. A few are young so it is assumed they were born in Oregon after the parents moved in from Idaho. 

Oregon did not re-introduce wolves into the state. The wolves migrated into the state. Since discovery, Oregon is tracking and monitoring them which is how they knew that a 2-1/2 year old male wolf they had collared with a GPS collar had left its family pack in Wallowa Co., OR. They followed its travels. California was alerted.

California DFG did not re-introduce wolves into the state. Via his GPS collar, they are tracking and monitoring him. He crossed into California on Dec. 28. He was in western Lassen Co. (mountains, high desert) as of Jan. 27. 

I don't know if the wolves in Idaho were re-introduced there or if the wolves migrated from packs that had been re-introduced into the Yellowstone area by the federal government. 

I don't know anything about wolves or a wolf problem in Wisconsin. 

It was not the purpose of this thread to evolve to a pro-wolf or anti-wolf discussion. Before throwing out that states re-introduced wolves anywhere, do your homework. As far as I can tell, no state has done that. The only info on re-introduction I have been able to find was mentions of the federal government re-introducing them to the Yellowstone area. 

Helen


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

helencalif said:


> Folks, the purpose of this thread was to talk about an historic event -- the first gray wolf in California since 1924. This is a lone male wolf who traveled from the NE corner of Oregon on a journey to find another pack and/or a mate. If he had traveled a few miles east from where he lived in Wallowa Co., Oregon, to Idaho, he would have found a pack and a mate. Instead, he meandered south through eastern Oregon and crossed into California where he is going to find neither.
> 
> Google "Wolves in Oregon". You will find that the state has 4 known wolf "family packs" for a total of around 23 wolves in Oregon (average 5 to 7 in a pack, not all related). It is believed the original wolves now living in these packs migrated from Idaho. A few are young so it is assumed they were born in Oregon after the parents moved in from Idaho.
> 
> ...


This has been a very interesting thread though. I'm not sure that the government is telling us everything they do with animals. People are now seeing black bears in our area. Sure they could be traveling north and therefore into our area. The thing is that one neighbor heard a "story" about some of those bears being turned loose in our area. I think that the story is true. I do not mean to hijack this thread but I just needed to point out that we don't always get the full story from the fish and game people. The fish and game people did say that they have tried to extend the black bears' range in OK but that is not official at all ( it may be a rumor ). Fact is people are seeing them here where black bears haven't been seen for probably 100 years ( or more ). One son was telling me about seeing "droppings" from an animal that he could not identify. It was in a public hunting area. Just so happens that it was only 2 to 4 miles from the place where the bears were supposed to have been turned loose. We had not heard about the bear release yet at that time. Now back to the op post. I think it is very interesting that the young wolf has traveled like this. Thanks for posting it.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

charly_t said:


> This has been a very interesting thread though. I'm not sure that the government is telling us everything they do with animals. People are now seeing black bears in our area. Sure they could be traveling north and therefore into our area. The thing is that one neighbor heard a "story" about some of those bears being turned loose in our area. I think that the story is true. I do not mean to hijack this thread but I just needed to point out that we don't always get the full story from the fish and game people. The fish and game people did say that they have tried to extend the black bears' range in OK but that is not official at all ( it may be a rumor ). Fact is people are seeing them here where black bears haven't been seen for probably 100 years ( or more ). One son was telling me about seeing "droppings" from an animal that he could not identify. It was in a public hunting area. Just so happens that it was only 2 to 4 miles from the place where the bears were supposed to have been turned loose. We had not heard about the bear release yet at that time. Now back to the op post. I think it is very interesting that the young wolf has traveled like this. Thanks for posting it.


We've had the rumors about black bears being released in our area also. Supposedly to control the feral hog problem. The White Oak WMA has signs posted at all entry points that a black bear is easily mistaken for a large feral boar hog and that it is illegal to shoot black bears.

In regards to the rumors, I find it hard to believe that a state or federal agency would transport and release black bears in any area without notifying the public. To my knowlegde no notification has been posted in print or via other forms of media.

Perhaps the black bears are just expanding their area. I don't know but if i see one I'm gonna tell it hey I watched Gentle Ben growing up do you want some peanut butter?

No offense but I'm not a big believer in conspiracy theories when it comes to wildlife management.


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

duk4me said:


> No offense but I'm not a big believer in conspiracy theories when it comes to wildlife management.


No offense taken but no one released the info about all the wild hogs the game ranger was shooting one week end in an area near here but a cousin was talking to him the day after and was told about it. I was happy to hear they were thinning the hogs out. The thing is we take the local news paper and listen to the news ( on TV ) for the Tulsa area and we never heard anything about it either. Then there are the official news releases about there not being a cougar in this area let alone more than one but there are. One guy with a camera for monitoring wild game has photos of one. I know a lady who passed a group along the highway near here who were admiring a cougar someone had hit and killed on the highway. Cattle were being reported killed by cougars back in the 60s in this area but there were officially no courgars in this area. It has continued that way for many, many years. A doctor that I know talked with a rancher who sees a cougar when he looks after his cattle. A pipeline here close to us being monitored by a man on foot was the scene of one sighting. Some people do tell tall tales but the dead cougar sort of clinched the stories. My point is they may not know everything their own department is doing and even if they did they may be told not to tell where the bears are being released ( maybe just that they are ).


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

these wolves exist to kill and reproduce little killers . Decimates elk and deer herds. There was a thread a while back where the theme was SSS - shoot ,shovel ,shut up. I have never seen one , and if I do I hope I am armed . Want to stay on top of the food chain alive regards...


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

John Kelder said:


> these wolves exist to kill and reproduce little killers . Decimates elk and deer herds. There was a thread a while back where the theme was SSS - shoot ,shovel ,shut up. I have never seen one , and if I do I hope I am armed . Want to stay on top of the food chain alive regards...


I wouldn't worry about the wolves John. It is obvious by your avatar that Alfred Hitchcock's birds are about to attack you from behind.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Well, for one, they're federally protected, with a rather hefty fine for shooting them.


True, but the same is true of wolves in most parts of their range. Depending on where you live, cougars either are or are not legal to shoot, alligators are not a free fire species, bears are protected when out of season, etc.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Wolves have been in Central Or for a long time. My best friends' family was one of two original settlers in Weiser, Id. The grandparents, decendents of three generations now live and work a ranch north of Weiser a couple hours drive. 

They've been SSS'ing them for over 50 years. They didn't want attention, didn't want public and biologists coming in to take measures to protect them and allow continued killing of their range cattle operation. 

I had an encounter on Lake Cle Elum 5 years ago alone on thanksgiving day archery hunting. I know what I heard killing something and it wasn't coyotes. Just last Fall Fish and Wildlife publicly announced the existence of the Teannaway Pack. Nothing like stalking elk with a bow and hear what I heard happening within a few hundred yards of me. Had my presense been known to them or I was closer, who knows. It's only a matter of time......In good timing prior to the announcement of Wa. State wolf packs, archery hunters are now allowed to carry sidearms while hunting.....go figure....was a little late for my first encounter.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

HPL said:


> True, but the same is true of wolves in most parts of their range. Depending on where you live, cougars either are or are not legal to shoot, alligators are not a free fire species, bears are protected when out of season, etc.


HPL I havent validated the legality of this but the son of a friend of mine showed me pics of a 12 and 8 footer he caught in the area of Jefferson TX. I questioned the legality and he said that once you killed them in Marion Co. you send in the documentation and pay the tag fee and it is perfectly legal.

I used to have a goose lease in Chambers County and there you had to have your tags before you take one.

Of course I'm not saying they are a free fire species just thought you would find it interesting the legal differences in different locales.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

duk4me said:


> HPL I havent validated the legality of this but the son of a friend of mine showed me pics of a 12 and 8 footer he caught in the area of Jefferson TX. I questioned the legality and he said that once you killed them in Marion Co. you send in the documentation and pay the tag fee and it is perfectly legal.
> 
> I used to have a goose lease in Chambers County and there you had to have your tags before you take one.
> 
> Of course I'm not saying they are a free fire species just thought you would find it interesting the legal differences in different locales.


After your post, I looked up the alligator regs in the 2011-2012 Hunting and Fishing booklet and they are a bit convoluted, but from what I can tell, in most counties there is a season in April and June, in some counties also Sept 10-30. In some counties you need a CITES tag on your person, in some not. Then at the bottom of the regulations, it says that additional regulations apply and can be found in another publication!! Fact is, you kill one during duck season, it was out of season. Would do it if moving to kill my dog, legal or not, but you would be in mortal danger if you were moving to kill my dog too, so??????


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## Shelby (Jul 20, 2009)

It seems to me that all things that want to kill you are protected. Wolf, griz, and gators. What the heck


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

HPL said:


> After your post, I looked up the alligator regs in the 2011-2012 Hunting and Fishing booklet and they are a bit convoluted, but from what I can tell, in most counties there is a season in April and June, in some counties also Sept 10-30. In some counties you need a CITES tag on your person, in some not. Then at the bottom of the regulations, it says that additional regulations apply and can be found in another publication!! Fact is, you kill one during duck season, it was out of season. Would do it if moving to kill my dog, legal or not, but you would be in mortal danger if you were moving to kill my dog too, so??????


They took these gators this spring. I will be by their business tomorrow and ask what they had to do to be legal.

One thing I know dog or gator my dog will win as long as I have a gun.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Hey, we have huntin' seasons for wolves and griz's.

Usually hunters get the bear, sometimes the bear gets the hunter.


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## Doug Moore (Nov 8, 2006)

Somewhat off topic of Helen's post but here is a good watch for some of the "pro" wolf people. I guess it is easy for those on the outside to be judgmental and have opinions but if it was your livelihood I would bet those views would change. http://cryingwolfmovie.com/


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

No, by your own post, not an invasive species, but rather a different subspecies. Other than size (which could simply be an example of Bergman's rule) what other differences are there?


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

FinnLandR said:


> My point is, if you are going to "re-introduce" a subspecies, then reintroduce it, not some other subspecies that did not evolve for that area.
> 
> Many native species of trout have been, or nearly been, wiped out by man's good intentions of "re-introduction", when man had no dang clue which subspecies he was really putting in there. I mean a trout is a trout, right? Wrong.
> 
> And a wolf is not a wolf.


I was having a semantic disagreement with you. To be an invasive SPECIES, it has to be a different SPECIES ("Species" means a group of organisms all of which have a high degree of physical and genetic similarity, generally interbreed only among themselves, and show persistent differences from members of allied groups of organisms. As per def (h) above). Different subspecies of a common species are, by definition, not different species. Great if the original subspecies still exists and can be re-introduced, but if not, the nearest analog is OK with me. I don't think the trout analogy is very on point. The introduction of trout into streams where trout already exist is far different from introducing a somewhat different subspecies of wolf into an area where the historical subspecies has be totally extirpated. The danger with the trout is that the introduction of the wrong species or subspecies will actually hasten the demise of the very fish one was trying to preserve. In the case of the wolf, it is the species itself that is being preserved. No other variants are present to be damaged by the re-introduction.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks cory, the new wolfs that were introduced in yellowstone and surrounding areas are not the same as the wolfs as before, much bigger.

*THEY HAVE BEEN FEDERALY DELISTED IN MOST NW STATES!!!*
Why? because their population is 4x what was considered recovered, and the individual states will now manage them. The biggest success story for any endangered species, and no disease or over hunting has caused deer, elk and moose populations to plummet so fast as these NON-NATIVE wolfs have. 

So it is legeal in most places, where their not still federaly protected, to shoot onsite any wolf that is in harassing your livestock or dogs. Even if your dog is a female wolf Hybrid in heat staked out at night about 200 yards from your shooting bench...

My prediction, moose and elk numbers in the west will go so low it will close hunting for them in some places, which is where f&g gets most of there funding for wolf monirtoring, and then the wolfs will starve off and that will just cycle about every 20 years or so.

Helen, yellowstone goes into Idaho, in case you didn't relize that, and Idaho elk heards have been hit the hardest, cut in half in about 4 years.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

TPhillips said:


> Thanks cory, the new wolfs that were introduced in yellowstone and surrounding areas are not the same as the wolfs as before, much bigger.
> 
> *THEY HAVE BEEN FEDERALY DELISTED IN MOST NW STATES!!!*
> Why? because their population is 4x what was considered recovered, and the individual states will now manage them. The biggest success story for any endangered species, and no disease or over hunting has caused deer, elk and moose populations to plummet so fast as these NON-NATIVE wolfs have.
> ...


Just got done having dinner with a Czech friend and one of his regular outfitters. He's used his guide for 3 different British Columbia bear hunts. The Outfitter was down for the Sportsman Show in Puyallup, Wa. My friend and his buddy just booked a BC wolf hunt. His guide(if anyone wants his info PM me, my buddy has been with others in BC and say he's the best) showed us their blog from the last three days. He said every season of thinning wolves via trapping and shooting, they are replaced in greater numbers with new young wolves looking for new ranges. The last three years consecutively, they have doubled their success rate and booked more and more trips. Tonight, my friend just booked a trip for him and his friend for $6K each. 

I expect we'll be doing the same in Washington, Oregon and Idaho within 10 years unless something drastic is done. I'm going to start looking into an guide license and insurance in the next few years.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Problem is they wont be legal on this side till they've wiped out 3/4 of the elk. Guess if I didn't hunt big game or raise cattle I might not care as much. 

Stocking up on traps ...


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

http://www.kxly.com/news/23588359/detail.html?fb_ref=story&fb_source=profile_oneline

Sad to lose your dog in this horrific manner.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Thinking Like a Mountain 
Aldo Leopold (1949)

A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far blackness of the night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world. 
Every living thing (and perhaps many a dead one as well) pays heed to that call. To the deer it is a reminder of the way of all flesh, to the pine a forecast of midnight scuffles and of blood upon the snow, to the coyote a promise of gleanings to come, to the cowman a threat of red ink at the bank, to the hunter a challenge of fang against bullet. Yet behind these obvious and immediate hopes and fears there lies a deeper meaning, known only to the mountain itself. Only the mountain has lived long enough to listen objectively to the howl of a wolf.
Those unable to decipher the hidden meaning know nevertheless that it is there, for it is felt in all wolf country, and distinguishes that country from all other land. It tingles in the spine of all who hear wolves by night, or who scan their tracks by day. Even without sight or sound of wolf, it is implicit in a hundred small events: the midnight whinny of a pack horse, the rattle of rolling rocks, the bound of a fleeing deer, the way shadows lie under the spruces. Only the ineducable tyro can fail to sense the presence or absence of wolves, or the fact that mountains have a secret opinion about them. 
My own conviction on this score dates from the day I saw a wolf die. We were eating lunch on a high rimrock, at the foot of which a turbulent river elbowed its way. We saw what we thought was a doe fording the torrent, her breast awash in white water. When she climbed the bank toward us and shook out her tail, we realized our error: it was a wolf. A half-dozen others, evidently grown pups, sprang from the willows and all joined in a welcoming melee of wagging tails and playful maulings. What was literally a pile of wolves writhed and tumbled in the center of an open flat at the foot of our rimrock. 
In those days we had never heard of passing up a chance to kill a wolf. In a second we were pumping lead into the pack, but with more excitement than accuracy: how to aim a steep downhill shot is always confusing. When our rifles were empty, the old wolf was down, and a pup was dragging a leg into impassable slide-rocks.
We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes- something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters’ paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view. 
Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn. Such a mountain looks as if someone had given God a new pruning shears, and forbidden Him all other exercise. In the end, the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers.
I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. 
So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea.
We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoreau’s dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among man.


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## justin300mag (May 28, 2010)

Sorry but to a rancher thinking "Like a mountain" means standing in the unemployment line. 

On another note my dogs will be getting alot more work next year because I will be spending alot more time waterfowling. No reason to spend money chasing elk that no longer exist.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Frank Glaser, a man who spent much more time controlling wolfs, read the book on his life.


Wolfs are very cool animals, and Aldo was a very good writer, but, I spend at least 30 days a year, if not 40+ camped out hunting, same spot for the last ten years. I've seen the wolfs move back in, and decimate the elk herds, and kill many livestock. I suppose if you didn't get out and see the before and after for yourself you wouldn't get it. Sure it's pretty cool to sit up high and glass and spot a giant pack of wolfs, but id much rather see elk. Alive, not bones. We brought canadian wolfs into the north west and now we are paying a heavy cost. 

Its like the pigs in the south.... but imagine if the pigs killed off 2/3 of your deer and a few of your horses and a dog or two and multiplied just as fast but spread out faster, were way harder to hunt, AND there was groups of people trying to keep the pigs protected.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

This is how we roll in Idaho!! 300 dogs and counting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3HkGXvBMXg


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

I believe that Leopold was for balance. If hunting was as it used to be (no four wheelers, fewer logging roads, more difficult access, etc.) There would be enough deer and elk for the wolves and for the hunters. Kinda glad that I'm as old as I am. Probably won't live to see the total destruction of all things wild. I have never judged something's worth by its direct benefit to man. The world without apex predators would surely be a diminished place.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Saw a Mount of a Wolf in MT from their first wolf season at Sporting-Goods store last year, They Are that big, they make our 100lb labs look like lap dogs. Head about mid-chest standing, and paws as big as my hand fingers outspread.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Their 30% larger than the wolves that used to roam the nw, and eventually the populations will stabilize, just like in remote Alaska, population waves. I still don't know where you hunt off a four wheeler in the nw except on private land, and the place I hunt is remote as it gets, back then and now. A 80 yr old man was telling me how when they were boys their dads would take horses and a big sled in and shoot a whole bunch of elk every year. Theirs not enough game for two apex predators, we will end up stopping all elk hunting, or a very limited basis and wolves will be like coyotes, year round unlimited


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

TPhillips said:


> Their 30% larger than the wolves that used to roam the nw, and eventually the populations will stabilize, just like in remote Alaska, population waves. I still don't know where you hunt off a four wheeler in the nw except on private land, and the place I hunt is remote as it gets, back then and now. A 80 yr old man was telling me how when they were boys their dads would take horses and a big sled in and shoot a whole bunch of elk every year. Theirs not enough game for two apex predators, we will end up stopping all elk hunting, or a very limited basis and wolves will be like coyotes, year round unlimited


Well, if there isn't enough game for two apex predators and since we mostly do it for pleasure and not to live, perhaps we should bow out.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

HPL said:


> Well, if there isn't enough game for two apex predators and since we mostly do it for pleasure and not to live, perhaps we should bow out.


Unbelievable!


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

HPL said:


> Well, if there isn't enough game for two apex predators and since we mostly do it for pleasure and not to live, perhaps we should bow out.


Trying to be a peanut, but really?? 

I don't know too many people who do this for purely pleasure. I spend countless hours and hundreds of dollars and often go home empty handed. When I am lucky enough to kill an animal it's in the freezer and that is the meat we eat other than chicken. Your post is quite ignorant, and I think will offend more than a few.


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

JeffLusk said:


> Trying to be a peanut, but really??
> 
> I don't know too many people who do this for purely pleasure. I spend countless hours and hundreds of dollars and often go home empty handed. When I am lucky enough to kill an animal it's in the freezer and that is the meat we eat other than chicken. Your post is quite ignorant, and I think will offend more than a few.


You hit the nail on the head right there!!!!!!!


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Seriously, you don't think I find those who are suggesting the extirpation of wolves not only ignorant but arrogant and VERY offensive? I doubt that many of the folks who hunt elk or deer are substance hunters which means that whether they eat the meat or not, they are hunting not to feed their families but for FUN!! That's why I hunt. Most studies show that buying steak is cheaper than hunting so perhaps your circumstances are vastly different from most hunters but if we reduced hunting only to those who actually are subsistence hunters I suspect that there would be plenty of elk to go around. Those who hunt for pleasure may have to cut back a bit. That's the way it is if we want to keep a truly diverse natural world.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Or perhaps we shouldnt introduce non native species and the spend millions tracking them and protecting them, and maybe take the proper steps to manage our game effectively. 

Wildlife conservation money comes from hunting, for the most part, so you stop hunting and you effectively end protection and conservation. I would like to take my grandchildren elk hunting someday.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Think how much more of an experience it will be if they also get to hear a wolf howl.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

An anti-hunter from the coast of Texas telling folks living with the problem how they should think...Classic Stuff!


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

My 5 nephews live in Oregon. These are not kids, they are brothers who are 50-something and have hunted all their lives (usually together). They hunt deer and elk. 

The Big Deal Lucille is their annual elk hunting trip. They talk about past trips, they plan their trip to their Elk Camp in eastern Oregon. They go to Costco and elsewhere buying tons of food and drink. They clean their guns, they gather their gear, they repair old gear, they buy new gear. This goes on for weeks. The telephone wires burn between houses as the guys get ready. Finally the big day comes, the trucks are loaded, and off they go to Elk Camp for a week.

They come back home and talk about Elk Camp for months.

I think in the past 5 years, these 5 men have shot a total of 3 elk. All the meat gets divided up among them. I can't imagine what it costs per pound split 5 ways. 

It's just something that has to be done. The men get back and sign up for vacation time for next year's Elk Camp. It's a Man Thing. The all-knowing wives just smile and shake their heads. They are used to it. Every year at Elk Camp time, I go to Oregon to visit the wives. We visit, we shop, we go to lunch. It's a Woman Thing. 

Helen 

"What happens in Elk Camp, stays in Elk Camp" -- they all got these T-shirts two years ago for Christmas from their wives. They love them.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Im not completely against wolves, yes its kinda neat to listen to them at night, but there being grossly mismanaged. Year round trapping and aerial hunting needs to happen if hunting seasons alone doesn't thin them out, or it will take 20 years to get our elk herd populations back up

Another big myth is that wolves don't kill for sport, but they sure do, rip the elks guts open and let it die, or just bite off a hanging tung as they run by, and eat nothing. What's the price per howl? At least I feed my family with my elk.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

What do you mean by anti-hunter? I began hunting with my grandfather almost 50 years ago. I have had (and used) a hunting license I believe every year since I have been old enough to require one. I haven't hunted all over the country or all over the world, but have killed deer, hogs, javelina, nilgai, ducks, dove, quail, and even two chachalacas. One can be a conservationist and a hunter. Aldo Leopold hunted as did most of the learned writers in the field and as do most wildlife professionals I know. (oh, I forgot, I shot lots of bunnies when my wife and I were first married, cheap alternative to chicken). We have alligators here and one has to be very careful about where one hunts waterfowl. I'm not calling for the extirpation of alligators. Would I kill one if it was an immediate threat to my dog? You bet, but YOU would be in mortal danger if you were an immediate threat to my dog too. 



achiro said:


> An anti-hunter from the coast of Texas telling folks living with the problem how they should think...Classic Stuff!


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Well Helen, I'm not sure where you are coming down on this, but I will assume that you are basically paraphrasing the Aldo Leopold quote that Ken Bora uses in his signature : 

"So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory."

Aldo Leopold


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Helen, I have enjoyed your posts. As a kid, (think I told you, our family vacation was to Lake Almanor) We fished all the streams: Goodrich, Susan, Hamillton Branch, Benner, Creek, Clear creek, Feather river, and stayed at Lassen View Resort. And, 15 years ago, our honeymoon was a trailer stop on the Hamilton branch. Gotta respect my wife for that! I go back to the days when Bernie's was a sporting good store in Chester. 

Not sure about wolves, but I have learned a disdain for Coyote's. I have lost one dog already, and it has changed our walking/training habits. Just a thought. 

Take care Helen


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

I really hate debates, and not trying to have this go back and forth. The facts are facts and what I believe is what I believe. Our state doesn't allow hunting on them, and it will become an issue when it's too late. I've heard a pack of wolves will kill 5-7 times before it eats. This is retarded on fish and game to bring an animal like this into our state. I will never understand and hope I'm wrong. 

I'm so glad to say I will be hunting mountain lion next week behind hound dogs in Arizona to help do my part in conservation. And yes it will be eaten!!


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Hey jeff, we threw a few cat carcasses to my friends cow dogs and not only would they not eat it, but the magpies and vultures left it alone too! I don't know if I should eat it either


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Can't speak for cougar, but bobcat is excellent. A white meat, very tender and kind of sweet. Way better than armadillo or raccoon.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

HPL said:


> Well Helen, I'm not sure where you are coming down on this, but I will assume that you are basically paraphrasing the Aldo Leopold quote that Ken Bora uses in his signature :
> 
> "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory."
> 
> Aldo Leopold


Would never want to speak for Ken, but the quote comes from an era when killing for "sport" was prevalent. Leopold, had surmised that MORE wolves meant less deer. He shot them all, and ultimately realized that may not be the case. A greater understanding of nature, and conservation on his part. As we "manage" animals and game, and encroach on habitat, perhaps the rules have changed. Not sure, And I have mixed emotions on the killing of wolves. I was also conflicted on the killing of Mountain Lion's. I have seen three in my lifetime----one was on Goodrich Creek in your back yard. And, no I didn't shoot, shovel and shut up. 

Again thanks for the posts. Ken, need some insights.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

TPhillips said:


> Hey jeff, we threw a few cat carcasses to my friends cow dogs and not only would they not eat it, but the magpies and vultures left it alone too! I don't know if I should eat it either


I have heard from others that cougar is very tasty! Least I can do is give it a try.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Oh its good, but you got to wonder why even scavengers wouldn't eat it


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## Hotchocolate (Jun 24, 2011)

I,ve eaten cougar at a wild game dinner,everyone thought it was delicious ..Enjoy the hunt..


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Cougar is quite tasty. I enjoyed my freezer full.


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

JeffLusk said:


> I have heard from others that cougar is very tasty! Least I can do is give it a try.


Logo lusk logo lmbo


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

7pntail said:


> ..................
> 
> Not sure about wolves, but I have learned a disdain for Coyote's. I have lost one dog already, and it has changed our walking/training habits. Just a thought.
> 
> Take care Helen


John, I am sorry that happen to you and your dog. There is another person on this Forum, from this side of the USA that lost her retriever to coyotes while on a walk late winter/early spring. Ran ahead a ways as usual with one or two others and the excitment of being there for the first time since winter settled in. A familiar, known area, and she was coming along behind them. 

Scares the heck out of me as we take our guys for runs here..and there are plenty of coyotes. 

Wolf hybrids that are not kept as they should be, scare me as well...that from experience. It is sad to have such an animal and then to not take proper care of it is cruel to those exposed and the animal itself. 

Judy


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

HPL said:


> Well Helen, I'm not sure where you are coming down on this, but I will assume that you are basically paraphrasing the Aldo Leopold quote that Ken Bora uses in his signature : "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory."
> Aldo Leopold


Elk Camp ... brothers by blood, brothers in spirit, brothers keeping the family tradition, brothers being there making memories. 

Helen


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Can't speak for cougar, but bobcat is excellent. A white meat, very tender and kind of sweet


I can't speak about cougar but lynx is exactly what HPL says bobcat is. Who would believe that a cat tastes good?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

ive eaten bear, cougar and bobcat. I prefere elk.

the beutiful thing is most studies show that the more we kill coyotes the more they reproduce. so if you love coyotes and want them protected, we need to shoot more of them.

/Paul


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Our daughter lives in a suburban neighborhood in Folsom, CA. The sudivision is about 12 years old. A busy thoroughfare is right behind her house. However, open land is on the other side of the thoroughfare (with Folsom Lake beyond the thoroughfare about a mile). 

Last year a coyote snatched their cat who was right on the front lawn. Son in law saw it and chased the coyote who dropped the cat after running maybe 100 ft. (two houses) then ran up the street. Cat was rushed to the vet for stitches and rabies testing. The vet said they had a rash of small pets brought in for the same and that there had been many coyote sightings -- not just one coyote. There is still an occasional coyote (or coyotes) sighting. 

And then there were mountain lion sightings around Folsom lake. Presence was confirmed by the DFG and people were warned about the mountain lion(s). 

The problem, as I see it, for this area of Folsom is new homes have been built and man has spread into their environment. The animals were pushed away from their habitat. The area around Folsom lake was their home. Perhaps some never left, perhaps others are finding the undeveloped land around the lake the only place they can live as deer, rabbits, turkeys, and other wildlife are still abundant. And the small pets who came into their environment are abundant for a quick meal.

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

About mountain lions in California... as I have posted before, we live in the mountains on the east shore overlooking Lake Almanor. We have all kinds of wildlife around us, including mountain lions. We moved into their environment and we recognize that. 

Although we have never seen a mountain lion in 15 years, there are articles in our local paper about them when they attack horses, sheep, goats, pets, etc. Don't recall any articles about cattle or cows; perhaps depredation permits are granted on the QT.

This last Wed. our newspaper had a large article because there were several recent attacks (goats in a barn, puppy right off a porch) all in a small community about 15 miles from us. The lion who snatched the Border collie puppy right off the porch was shot while the puppy was still in its mouth. The owner and his wife were watching TV when they heard the commotion on their porch. (No time for a permit; the owner dispatched the lion without one which is allowed as it was right on their porch and humans were threatened.)

When there are attacks, depredation permits are issued by DFG for the locality. A total of 4 mountain lions were killed near this community after the permits were issued. Three of the lions were ones that came back to the barn to eat the goats they had killed and to kill more goats. The permit holders were there to dispatch them. 

Since the passage of 117 protecting mountain lions in California, the lion population has grown tremendously and so have problems. The mountain lion protectors are still a strong lobby (voters in San Francisco and Los Angeles). The only way to cut down a bit on the population is when an incident occurs, then a few depredation permits can be issued for that area. Seven permits were issued in Plumas County (where we live) last year. 

There are no mountain lion hunts in CA and you can bet there never will be as long as San Francisco and Los Angeles control the state. 

Helen 

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

About mountain lions in California... as I have posted before, we live in the mountains on the east shore overlooking Lake Almanor. We have all kinds of wildlife around us, including mountain lions. We moved into their environment and we recognize that. 

Although we have never seen a mountain lion in 15 years, there are articles in our local paper about them when they attack horses, sheep, goats, pets, etc. Don't recall any articles about cattle or cows; perhaps depredation permits are granted on the QT.

This last Wed. our newspaper had a large article because there were several recent attacks (goats in a barn, puppy right off a porch) all in a small community about 15 miles from us. The lion who snatched the Border collie puppy right off the porch was shot while the puppy was still in its mouth. The owner and his wife were watching TV when they heard the commotion on their porch. (No time for a permit; the owner dispatched the lion without one which is allowed as it was right on their porch and humans were threatened.)

When there are attacks, depredation permits are issued by DFG for the locality. A total of 4 mountain lions were killed near this community after the permits were issued. Three of the lions were ones that came back to the barn to eat the goats they had killed and to kill more goats. The permit holders were there to dispatch them. 

Since the passage of 117 protecting mountain lions in California, the lion population has grown tremendously and so have problems. The mountain lion protectors are still a strong lobby (voters in San Francisco and Los Angeles). The only way to cut down a bit on the population is when an incident occurs, then a few depredation permits can be issued for that area. Seven permits were issued in Plumas County (where we live) last year. 

There are no mountain lion hunts in CA and you can bet there never will be as long as San Francisco and Los Angeles control the state. 

Helen


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

Howard N said:


> .............. Who would believe that a cat tastes good?


LOL, certain Asians.


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

TPhillips said:


> Their 30% larger than the wolves that used to roam the nw, and eventually the populations will stabilize, just like in remote Alaska, population waves. I still don't know where you hunt off a four wheeler in the nw except on private land, and the place I hunt is remote as it gets, back then and now. A 80 yr old man was telling me how when they were boys their dads would take horses and a big sled in and shoot a whole bunch of elk every year. Theirs not enough game for two apex predators, we will end up stopping all elk hunting, or a very limited basis and wolves will be like coyotes, year round unlimited


A fundamental issue with this post is the throwing around of opinion without the data to support it. Alaska has a much different biological regime than the Rockies. Research has overwhelmingly demonstrated that population has continued to increase without leveling off, as it should for a K selected (apex predator). The current data indicates that the artificial food sources (live stock) present in the range of the rocky mtn populations are allowing populations to reach levels that exceed that of the base line condition (without artificial food). The lack of a limiting factor in the wolf population has decimated populations of other large fauna in the wolf's range, to the extent that recovery from a disease outbreak in elk would be unlikely.

To manage natural resources based on emotion was the cause of many of our past mistakes. Interesting that we would make just as ignorant mistakes today as we did 100 yrs ago when we wiped them out. Since man has thrown off the balance, it our responsibility to manage wildlife populations in a manner that promotes the balance that we have disrupted. This issue is well publicized due to the heated debate to de-list the species and the resulting law suits.....


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

HPL said:


> Can't speak for cougar, but bobcat is excellent. A white meat, very tender and kind of sweet. Way better than armadillo or raccoon.


LOL. Never thought of anyone trying armadillo!


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

deadriver said:


> LOL. Never thought of anyone trying armadillo!


It's not known by the name "Texas Turkey" for nothing. LOL. Those things stink. Why anyone would eat one is beyond me.....guess those people are really hungry.


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

Uh-oh. I think a little TX- Oakie rivalry is coming out.


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

deadriver said:


> Uh-oh. I think a little TX- Oakie rivalry is coming out.


Not at all. If I remember correctly it was a "Texian" that told me that. Texans mostly have a great sense of humor.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

charly_t said:


> Not at all. If I remember correctly it was a "Texian" that told me that. Texans mostly have a great sense of humor.


WE do, and Aggies even more so (as long as you say it with a smile). The student chapter of the wildlife society used to have a "road kill" barbecue every fall to clean out their freezers in anticipation of needing the room as hunting season approached. Had everything from javelina/raccoon chili (not bad) to mountain goat (absolutely inedible YUUUK!!!). If I remember correctly armadillo is a firm, light colored meat, reasonably mild and mostly tasted like smoke and barbecue sauce. Don't remember seeing skunk, badger, weasel, rat, or anything like that, but who knows what was really in some of the various chili pots or sausages?

HPL


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Beaver is pretty good too ya know !!


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

TPhillips said:


> Beaver is pretty good too ya know !!


If you're going to dine on that regularly, you better get the HPV vaccine!!


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

My son posted this today: *"So two nights this week we have had the wolves around. This time a group trotted by while I stood on the deck within 30 +- yards of me. Gotta love country livin'."* So there's an Ely, Minnesota wolf update  No harm just an imposing presence. My son, his wife and three small children own a handful of chickens. So far, so good. We live on the edge of the BWCAW. Ely is home to The International Wolf Center.


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

BWCA Labs Margo Penke said:


> My son posted this today: *"So two nights this week we have had the wolves around. This time a group trotted by while I stood on the deck within 30 +- yards of me. Gotta love country livin'."* So there's an Ely, Minnesota wolf update  No harm just an imposing presence. My son, his wife and three small children own a handful of chickens. So far, so good. We live on the edge of the BWCAW. Ely is home to The International Wolf Center.


Posted this then read back through the thread. Heated subject! Two things came to mind: 1. Comparing a wolf to a coyote...is like comparing a lab to a pit bull (or something like that) anyway, there's a big difference. 2. We would shoot to kill a wolf, if was threatening.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Jeez, at thirty yards they could eat the kids before you could pick the kid up. I don't think I would of let them get that close!


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

HPL said:


> WE do, and Aggies even more so (as long as you say it with a smile). The student chapter of the wildlife society used to have a "road kill" barbecue every fall to clean out their freezers in anticipation of needing the room as hunting season approached. Had everything from javelina/raccoon chili (not bad) to mountain goat (absolutely inedible YUUUK!!!). If I remember correctly armadillo is a firm, light colored meat, reasonably mild and mostly tasted like smoke and barbecue sauce. Don't remember seeing skunk, badger, weasel, rat, or anything like that, but who knows what was really in some of the various chili pots or sausages?
> 
> HPL


Yeah, we had that at Clemson and i tried nutria stew. I would not advise it....


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

deadriver said:


> Yeah, we had that at Clemson and i tried nutria stew. I would not advise it....


You know, I've looked at nutria and wondered what one might taste like if prepared well. I was at a friend's house (a young PHd wildlife student at the local university) a couple of weeks ago and he was cooking a rather unfamiliar looking cut of meat. I asked what it was. Said his uncle had killed a big beaver and this was a cutlet. Said it was tasty. Didn't offer me a bite. You wouldn't think nutria would be too different. Can't remember if I've ever had possum, but folks eat them too. Wouldn't want to clean one. Haven't ever had the opportunity to eat gator either. Have been thinking that Florida might be able to cut down on the iguana problem if folks would take to eating them. Big iguanas look pretty muscular.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

On a winter trip at Hugh and Al's place we cooked frog legs. They were good but I couldn't get over thinking about what they were. Someone cooked up a **** one night but I wasn't having any of that. I have ate bear and liked it. Never had any cat or Coyote or possum or armadillo. I love gator though. One thing about the South is those boys knox how to cook and eat no doubt. I do miss the food it really makes me want to go on a winter trip. I would have to get a gym membership for sure.


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

We have very few gyms but plenty of fried food! 

We have hijacked the thread at this point....so back on topic.

I would imagine that wolves will continue to advance into Cali.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

A couple of threads on RTF (this being one of them) have spurred me to go back and read some of the writings that were at least somewhat formative for the way I think about our world and our place in it. Here are the last two paragraphs of an essay titled "The Value of Diversity" written by Douglas H. Pimlott in 1969.

Throughout the world people who hunt or who, in other ways, seek to maximize the direct return of the energy of ecosystems to people, kill wolves. In many areas they have succeeded in eliminating them and have achieved their goal at the cost of an important element of the diversity of holarctic environments. But the sense of the values change and people who visit Algonquin and other wolf woods of the world are raising more and more questions about the validity of settling a question of tangible versus intangible values in such a final way.
Wolves, coyotes, foxes, goshawks, and horned owls are all elements of ecological diversity which will be of greater value to people in the future. I think they, the predators, will be valuable in helping us to come to terms with the total value of diversity in the ecosystems of the world, because their presence causes us to consider the comparative value of tangible and intangible aspects of things that make up our lives.


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