# Why be mean-spirited?



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Honestly,

I know the knock that the internet has is that folks would write and behave towards others in a manner that they'd not dare in person.

Please, at least here on RTF, before you hit the "send" button, think about how you would feel if you were on the subject end, or the receiving end of the message. 

Treat others as you would like to be treated....

please...

Thanks, Chris


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

I appreciate that. Thank you. Dog people can be the best people in the world and sometimes I think they can be the meanest! I know its because we are all very passionate about what we believe in, but remember to take it a little easier on the newbies.


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

Christa,

Well said. As a newbie myself, the only way we're going to get more involved in the dog games is being willing to politely answer questions that I bet most "seasoned" trainers asked when they were beginners. There's little more discouraging as a new person than being talked to like a four year old for asking a question someone considered beneath them to answer.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Amen brother.....


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

It is kind of a small thing, but I think using your real name goes a long way in making you think before you post something mean. I belong to a duck-boat builders site that insist on real names only, and it it the most civil forum I have seen. Something to think about. Anway I can see you feel some personal pain as the forum you put so much love and labor into, gets twisted away from the civil way you act personally. I hope others see that to and act accordingly.

John


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Who was being mean? You let me know right now Chris and I’ll slap the snot out of um!! Oops, that sounds kind of mean doesn’t it? The problem I on occasion fall into is. While I have my name and photo right here on my posts for all to see. And never type anything I would not say right to a persons face. Because of just me being me, I say a wide variety of stuff to folks in person right to their face. And that carries over to here in virtual land. 


.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Honestly,
> 
> I know the knock that the internet has is that folks would write and behave towards others in a manner that they'd not dare in person.
> 
> ...


On occasion there are some who deserve that sort of treatment , as in real life they are not nice people. 

IMO ;-), whatever that's worth .

Marvin Sundstrom


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

And for guys that have websites and sell dogs should be honest with buyers also.


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Who was being mean? You let me know right now Chris and I’ll slap the snot out of um!! Oops, that sounds kind of mean doesn’t it? The problem I on occasion fall into is. While I have my name and photo right here on my posts for all to see. And never type anything I would not say right to a persons face. Because of just me being me, I say a wide variety of stuff to folks in person right to their face. And that carries over to here in virtual land.
> 
> 
> .



Me, personally, would NEVER say anything mean to a guy who's comfortable wearing a pink hat!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

MarkyMark said:


> And for guys that have websites and sell dogs should be honest with buyers also.


Yup, I totally GET that. Took only 3 weeks for my OFA's to come back last month. It seems others wait for months and months for results.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

I think people have a hard time understanding only the written word ..If the person was face to face and you hear the words, see the persons face and mannerism you get a totally different message some times ...Steve S


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

On the internet, we are all willing to talk to folks we'd never speak to in person (even if that means we say mean/rude stuff). Guess it's just an internet thing.

Think about it. Let's say you go to a DU event and hear some guy in the background talking about how he force fetches using real birds. Most folks are probably just gonna semi-ignore it and keep heading to the bar for another cold one rather than interject themselves into that conversation with a stranger. And yet, on the internet lots of folks got no problem touching that tar-baby. 

So...a lot of folks got no problem being a little mean-spirited with the other guy on the internet cause they know there's little chance of having the conversation spill over into the parking lot.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

TN_LAB said:


> So...a lot of folks got no problem being a little mean-spirited with the other guy on the internet cause they know there's little chance of having the conversation spill over into the parking lot.


ding ding ding we have a winner. I have had to walk away from training so that I didn't get into it because I feel something was done inappropriately. Walk away or go to throwing blows. Over the internet no one cares, spit the truth, or your version of the truth anyways, whats the worst that can happen? right? sometimes the truth hurts.

edit: my big gripe about the forum is the amount of GDG. Its funny how someone who posts about his "big pecker" gets 90 darn posts, but when a new guy gets on here and asks a question about FF he gets maybe 3 or 4 folks to speak up and help out. Are folks afraid of being wrong or what?


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

,,,,,,,,,,"Are folks afraid of being wrong or what?."

Yup...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

The specific incident about which I started this thread has been addressed and that makes me feel much better.

Thanks to each of you for your thoughts here.

Thanks for making RTF what it is.

Chris


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

What happens on the internet, _does not stay on the internet._ Some things translate into the real world, and people can be damaged by mean spirited, and unjust remarks.

Snick


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Call me old fashioned, but its not ok to be rude just because its the internet.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I understand Chris' point and like Ken, I try not to say something that I wouldn't say to a person's face (and I can be, ahem, kind of forthright). But on the other hand, some people need to learn to not take internet babble so seriously and take every remark they disagree with personally or get so huffy over imagined insults. Sometimes the "insult" wasn't really meant to be an insult at all.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

In life--be humble, honest, and sincere period, don't care what the venue is. 

I have no room for condescending folks. We are Damn lucky to have a wealth of knowledge on this forum. And, at the same time, if you get your panties in a wad-let it go!

Take care all---we have a common love for dawgs.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> I understand Chris' point and like Ken, I try not to say something that I wouldn't say to a person's face (and I can be, ahem, kind of forthright). But on the other hand, some people need to learn to not take internet babble so seriously and take every remark they disagree with personally or get so huffy over imagined insults. Sometimes the "insult" wasn't really meant to be an insult at all.


So very true.

Also, some people post up "questions" when its not really a question at all. Its a "pat me on the back and agree with me" or a "I want attention and people to fawn all over me" but when they actually get ANSWERS which may not show them in the best light they get all pissy. 

WRL


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

WRL said:


> So very true.
> 
> Also, some people post up "questions" when its not really a question at all. Its a "pat me on the back and agree with me" or a "I want attention and people to fawn all over me" but when they actually get ANSWERS which may not show them in the best light they get all pissy.
> 
> WRL


 
I got pissy once. Had to buy some new shoes...............


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pals said:


> I got pissy once. Had to buy some new shoes...............


LMAO.....

WRL


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> I got pissy once. Had to buy some new shoes...............


Hahahahaha-

I got a great joke about that but it's too close to happy hour and my typing finger and stirring finger are the same one.

Be back once I'm better lubricated regards

Bubba


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> The specific incident about which I started this thread has been addressed and that makes me feel much better.
> 
> Thanks to each of you for your thoughts here.
> 
> ...


 
No,
Thank You Chris,
Thank You Very Much.



.


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## NotaVegetarian (Aug 21, 2010)

Chris,


Thank you.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

MarkyMark said:


> And for guys that have websites and sell dogs should be honest with buyers also.


If you're referring to whom I think you are, this individual was banned from RTF long ago and has made a habit of burning bridges. The retriever world is a very small place. We have but one reputation. 

It amazes me that a few bad apples choose to tarnish theirs. 

Chris


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Pals said:


> I got pissy once. Had to buy some new shoes...............





Bubba said:


> Hahahahaha-
> 
> I got a great joke about that but it's too close to happy hour and my typing finger and stirring finger are the same one.
> 
> ...


Is it the one about why the little Dutch boy got kicked out of the……
Um…
Thinking of a politically correct phrase here

The one about why the little Dutch boy got kicked out of the all female tavern?



.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> ...edit: my big gripe about the forum is the amount of GDG. Its funny how someone who posts about his "big pecker" gets 90 darn posts, but when a new guy gets on here and asks a question about FF he gets maybe 3 or 4 folks to speak up and help out. Are folks afraid of being wrong or what?


What some folks don't understand is there are many times the question will be answered via PM, rather than on the forum. Just because there are not a lot of replies to a thread doesn't not necessarily mean that the poster did not get the information needed/requested.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

savage25xtreme said:


> ding ding ding we have a winner. I have had to walk away from training so that I didn't get into it because I feel something was done inappropriately. Walk away or go to throwing blows. Over the internet no one cares, spit the truth, or your version of the truth anyways, whats the worst that can happen? right? sometimes the truth hurts.
> 
> edit: my big gripe about the forum is the amount of GDG. Its funny how someone who posts about his "big pecker" gets 90 darn posts, but when a new guy gets on here and asks a question about FF he gets maybe 3 or 4 folks to speak up and help out. *Are folks afraid of being wrong or what?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Alllll Righty then.

Unfortunately the Redhead has offered to S/N me if I tell the whole joke but the punchline is:

Nah- It;s just the reflection off her shoes.


Still Gottem regards

Bubba


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Vicky Trainor said:


> What some folks don't understand is there are many times the question will be answered via PM, rather than on the forum. Just because there are not a lot of replies to a thread doesn't not necessarily mean that the poster did not get the information needed/requested.


Vickie, I get a great many of my questions answered via PM. Again I think the info I get in PMs should be able to be put in the forum for others that travel the same road, but as I said above many very talented folks don't post in the forum on training dogs.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Not too sure what a reticule is but the rest is clearly a case of pecker envy.

Classic Stage 2 regards

Bubba


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Maybe we need a "Mean" forum.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Bubba said:


> Not too sure what a reticule is but the rest is clearly a case of pecker envy.
> 
> Classic Stage 2 regards
> 
> Bubba


haha that's awesome. heck of a line.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

In this old world, sometimes things are tough. People say things they shouldn't say. Maybe it makes you mad, maybe it hurts your little feelings. But you can get over it. You don't have to go tattle to the teacher.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> savage25xtreme said:
> 
> 
> > ding ding ding we have a winner. I have had to walk away from training so that I didn't get into it because I feel something was done inappropriately. Walk away or go to throwing blows. Over the internet no one cares, spit the truth, or your version of the truth anyways, whats the worst that can happen? right? sometimes the truth hurts.
> ...


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Alllll Righty then.
> 
> Unfortunately the Redhead has offered to S/N me if I tell the whole joke but the punchline is:
> 
> ...


Ah, the kid in church confessing?


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Bubba said:


> Alllll Righty then.
> 
> Unfortunately the Redhead has offered to S/N me if I tell the whole joke but the punchline is:
> 
> ...


Was her name 'Tootie Greene"?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Steve Hester said:


> In this old world, sometimes things are tough. People say things they shouldn't say. Maybe it makes you mad, maybe it hurts your little feelings. But you can get over it. You don't have to go tattle to the teacher.


 
I have to respectfully agree. 

just so you know I'm still telling my mom you big meanie.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

TN_LAB said:


> So...a lot of folks got no problem being a little mean-spirited with the other guy on the internet cause they know there's little chance of having the conversation spill over into the parking lot.


Unless you never, ever go to a test or trial, that's actually very unlikely with this site, and the lurker component is even worse. 

I've been to a lot of events where people who have never posted on here make a comment about something I said. You could EASILY run into someone who you were arguementative with. I see Fallon quite often actually 

If anything, given the size of the community involved here and the prominence of RTF among retriever folks, one should be EXTRA careful what and how they post.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Cleo Watson said:


> Was her name 'Tootie Greene"?


Why Miss Cleo- I'm speechless that you would know of such a bawdy tale.

But since you ask- yes it was- her name I mean

My best to ya kiddo - keep that old man in line regards

Bubba


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I've said sum stuff!!

It gave me sumpin to think about after I saw a picture of David Gibson!:shock:

The way I justify my behavior sometimes, is I think if'n I's a bit of a jerk here,, then If's somebody sees me at a test,,

*THEY WONT COME TALK TO ME IN THE GOD DERNED HOLDIN BLIND!!*

Get it???

I mean really.. I'm there,, its almost crunch time. Whats gonna happen, is gonna happen. I've already decided on my attire. It wont do ANY good to tell me what to watch out for, where,, and who,, is doin the suction or any of that stuff!! 

Just leave me alone OK??

There!!

allhoses!!:razz:


Gooser


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

As I belong to a few i net forums RTF is the exception, not saying right or wrong. Most sites have large membership and ALL have a newb page for introductions and links to search functions for FAQ. If someone goes on the main page and asks a question similar to FF the will be flamed or the mods move/delete it. As in most hobbies or professional sites many subjects have been discussed until most wont even open the thread. Also if someone is about to do something stupid they are told. Some tactics,ideas or designs out of the norm are discussed but if its been tried and proven that it will not work or have poor success people are let know. Obviously in dog training some things are in a grey area and may or may not work. What usually starts a battle is for example a guy with his 1st or second dog and has done nothing argues with someone that has had many years of success and have proven them selves to be at the top of the sport. Sometimes people get a booboo lip and say folks are ganging up and being mean. 

If you dont want feedback or a answer to a question that you may not like DONT ask.

Just like in a email tone and inflection are hard to convey.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Thin skin is a recessive trait. I hear they are working on identifying the gene markers and a test will be available soon. Then we can start testing for it. 

Maybe some day that mean gene can be id'd.

In the meantime we can just read every post and keep a list. With sincere sensitivity, HPW


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> Was her name 'Tootie Greene"?


I thought it was Mother Greene...


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> Awesome! But, should carriers be removed from the gene pool?


If I breed a mean carrier to a thin skin, how many mean affecteds will I get?


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Steve Amrein said:


> As I belong to a few i net forums RTF is the exception, not saying right or wrong. Most sites have large membership and ALL have a newb page for introductions and links to search functions for FAQ. If someone goes on the main page and asks a question similar to FF the will be flamed or the mods move/delete it. As in most hobbies or professional sites many subjects have been discussed until most wont even open the thread. Also if someone is about to do something stupid they are told. Some tactics,ideas or designs out of the norm are discussed but if its been tried and proven that it will not work or have poor success people are let know. Obviously in dog training some things are in a grey area and may or may not work. What usually starts a battle is for example a guy with his 1st or second dog and has done nothing argues with someone that has had many years of success and have proven them selves to be at the top of the sport. Sometimes people get a booboo lip and say folks are ganging up and being mean.
> 
> If you dont want feedback or a answer to a question that you may not like DONT ask.
> 
> Just like in a email tone and inflection are hard to convey.


Steve, as a noob on this site, I have some perspective on what you are saying. I've also noticed what you say about people not really using the search feature as much as other sites I've been to. I know that this must get old and tiresome for you guys and girls who have been around for a long time. It has to be frustrating to have a new "which heartworm preventative..." thread every month. But, I have a sense of why this happens here opposed to other forums (non-dog training related).

I'm an amateur photographer and participate in a photography forum. There, like you said, people get flamed for not searching. However, most of the issues are black and white...how do I get my camera to do this. Well, once that has been answered once, everyone should be able to apply that knowledge to the situation. You just press this button, then that button, then set this setting to this.

But people's dogs, pets and training, are such personal issues. I think that most people feel that their situation is unique and in many cases they are correct. We're not talking about a camera. We're talking about a living being with somewhat unique traits and characteristics. If I mess up a setting on my camera, oh well, my picture will just probably suck. If I mess up something with my dog's training, diet, or whatever, I could be paying for that mistake for the rest of his/her life. So not only is the issue personal, but people also percieve the stakes and cost of mistakes to be high. So, if someone finds a question that is only SIMILAR to the issue they are having, I think they are way more inclined to ask it in a way that is specific to their situation. I'm not saying that these people are correct and you are wrong, I'm just saying that I believe that could be their thought process. 

It could also be laziness, being unaware of the search feature, or it could be that they just want human interaction and don't mind asking a question that has been asked a million time, just to get someone to respond to them. In these situations, I say flame away. 

As far as experienced trainers responding to posts...I've asked a few questions over the past few weeks and I feel privleged to get the well-thought out, informative answers that I've gotten. The knowledge that you guys are willing to share with idiots like myself, is what makes this site very special. If you guys didn't participate in training discussions, this site would not be what it is. That said, anyone who posts a question on here and EXPECTS an answer from an experienced trainer has an over developed sense of entitlement. It's like Roger Goodel says. Playing in the NFL is a privlege, not a right. Well, getting experienced training advice is also a privlege. Nobody (to my knowledge) pays to post on this site and nobody (again to my knowledge) gets paid to answer questions on this site. So, sometimes you can get way more than you paid for and sometimes you get exactly what you paid for, but you can never get LESS than what you paid for.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this post to get so long, so I'll end it now. Just want to say thanks again to all of you guys for your participation and guidance.


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

whitefoot said:


> Steve, as a noob on this site, I have some perspective on what you are saying. I've also noticed what you say about people not really using the search feature as much as other sites I've been to. I know that this must get old and tiresome for you guys and girls who have been around for a long time. It has to be frustrating to have a new "which heartworm preventative..." thread every month. But, I have a sense of why this happens here opposed to other forums (non-dog training related).
> 
> I'm an amateur photographer and participate in a photography forum. There, like you said, people get flamed for not searching. However, most of the issues are black and white...how do I get my camera to do this. Well, once that has been answered once, everyone should be able to apply that knowledge to the situation. You just press this button, then that button, then set this setting to this.
> 
> ...


Well said. I know I have felt that way. I try to use the search function as much as possible, but it can be hard to get what you are looking for. I agree that the situation may be a bit different so you want to ask and hope you'll get a more direct answer. I have learned that thick skin isn't optional. I might get my feelings hurt, but I won't throw a fit about it and it won't keep me from coming back and trying to improve.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Awesome! But, should carriers be removed from the gene pool?


Only if they can't pass a JH (Just Honest). If they aren't honest, they can't hide behind being a newby.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Will somebody please PM this Joke!!??


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pals said:


> Will somebody please PM this Joke!!??


No.....those in the know already know. Those NOT in the know don't know.....

We KNOW what category you are in.........

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Now you are mixing up the genes totally, going to get all thin-skinned meanies, and that's just going to ruin the breed completely.


That's right....that is an ABSOLUTE NO-NO!!!

WRL


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Pals said:


> Will somebody please PM this Joke!!??


With some on RTF being so MEAN and refusing to PM you.... here's a hint.

Google Search is an amazing tool....


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

Do Unto Others...As You Would Have Them Do Unto You...Good Reminder, Chris...One that we all need, because we all have someone above us, and someone below us...so to speak.
Even those of us who THINK we might be 'at the top'...not so.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> If anything, given the size of the community involved here and the prominence of RTF among retriever folks, one should be EXTRA careful what and how they post.


I agree with that. Even if you don't use your real name, it isn't going to stay a secret very long if you post here much, particularly if you are controversial. I don't use my real name but I assume that anyone who cares enough or knows me would figure it out, even though I am not anyone important. Doesn't really change my posting style though (I am actually more mean spirited in real life than on the internet). I don't care much if folks here know who I am. It is that evil google spider that I am trying to keep in the dark.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

do some misconstrue honesty to be "mean spirited"...?


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

EdA said:


> do some misconstrue honesty to be "mean spirited"...?


The truth hurts..........


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> do some misconstrue honesty to be "mean spirited"...?


Some probably do. The person who was doing so was truly being cruel and is aware of it.

It is resolved.

Chris


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Bubba - I have to admit I started out pure as the driven snow but it's the company I have been exposed to in the last 77 years. I married an ole Forester 56 years ago and then got involved with our wonderful dogs and the people who own them.

I will always remember the bumper sticker I saw one time.

"Don't tell my Mother I'm a Dog Handler, she thinks I play a piano in a house of ill repute"

I guess there are 'dirty old women' as well as 'dirty ole men'. Must be part of evolution. I guess I just 'R' 1.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

:shock:

He he he just told Bart the joke, he is still laughing.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

EdA said:


> do some misconstrue honesty to be "mean spirited"...?


It might depend on how that honesty is presented.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

whitefoot said:


> It might depend on how that honesty is presented.


Politically correctly?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In this regard I lead by example
..... as the day is long regards
john


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

EdA said:


> Politically correctly?


How about constructively?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

RF2 said:


> How about constructively?


I guess I don't understand how honesty needs to be presented in some palatable way. Honesty is neither constructive nor destructive or am I missing something fundamental?


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

EdA said:


> Politically correctly?


Remind me what that means again? I can't seem to find it in my vocabulary but these search functions all seem to be lacking in one way or another. I'm sure I must have it here somewhere...


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

EdA said:


> I guess I don't understand how honesty needs to be presented in some palatable way. Honesty is neither constructive nor destructive or am I missing something fundamental?


You're right. You said honesty, but what I processed was truth. Truths can be presented in hostile or belittling ways.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

EdA said:


> I guess I don't understand how honesty needs to be presented in some palatable way. Honesty is neither constructive nor destructive or am I missing something fundamental?


Interesting that you should bring this up. I was just having a text conversation with a friend and explained that some folks don't appreciate my honesty and I'm not referring to calling people out, but genuine information. Some people don't like it if you "know stuff."


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Remind me what that means again? I can't seem to find it in my vocabulary...


I could be wrong (although I doubt it), it means that we must be so careful of offending anyone that we cannot ever be brutally honest, we must always phrase things, no matter how accurate, in a way that never makes anyone feel bad or inadequate.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Cleo Watson said:


> Bubba - I have to admit I started out pure as the driven snow but it's the company I have been exposed to in the last 77 years. I married an ole Forester 56 years ago and then got involved with our wonderful dogs and the people who own them.
> 
> I will always remember the bumper sticker I saw one time.
> 
> ...


This is why I stick around these parts. Wher you gonna find little old ladies with a wicked sense of humor?

You are one of a kind and I'm hoping that you will be around for to entertain us for a long time to come.

Go sit on that old mans lap and make him an offer he can't refuse.

Tootie Green Regards

Bubba


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

EdA said:


> I could be wrong (although I doubt it), it means that we must be so careful of offending anyone that we cannot ever be brutally honest, we must always phrase things, no matter how accurate, in a way that never makes anyone feel bad or inadequate.


If you honestly feel that I am the ugliest person that you've ever met, would it be mean spirited for you to tell me that? I mean, you're just being honest, right?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> I could be wrong (although I doubt it), it means that we must be so careful of offending anyone that we cannot ever be brutally honest, we must always phrase things, no matter how accurate, in a way that never makes anyone feel bad or inadequate.


Whose definition is this? 

I have achieved the purpose of starting this thread. It was not directed at, nor motivated by, anyone that has posted in it.


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

EdA said:


> I could be wrong (although I doubt it), it means that we must be so careful of offending anyone that we cannot ever be brutally honest, we must always phrase things, no matter how accurate, in a way that never makes anyone feel bad or inadequate.


I don't think offending people is as much the issue. I don't mind if someone is brutally honest with me as long as their intentions are to help me along. I can take correction from someone who wants to help me succeed. Its the people who take pleasure in tearing other people down that are the problem. Some people are more sensitive than others. I guess I would never treat someone in a way that I wouldn't want to be treated. Everyone started somewhere. My 2 cents.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> I could be wrong (although I doubt it), it means that we must be so careful of offending anyone that we cannot ever be brutally honest, we must always phrase things, no matter how accurate, in a way that never makes anyone feel bad or inadequate.



Ed , I agree ...this attitude of never offending or upsetting someone has gotten out of hand .....As stated before " the truth hurts " sometimes ......I agree with Chris that things need to be civil on the boards though ....It is the nature of the beast that feeling are going to be hurt when opinionated discussions arise...
Steve S


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

whitefoot said:


> If you honestly feel that I am the ugliest person that you've ever met, would it be mean spirited for you to tell me that? I mean, you're just being honest, right?


Ask a question, be prepared for an answer. It may not be what you want to hear.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Being honest has nothing to do with being brutal. Seems that might be the problem here. HPW


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

So, I Got This New Chessie About 6 Months Old-good Lines According To The Breeder. How Do I Get Him To Come? And, He Wont' Sit. I Thought He Was A Retriever But He Won't Fetch Anything. How Do You Get Him To Heel? Is That Important? I Really Want This Dog To Do Everything I See On Tv. Should I Start Force Fetch First, Triple Marks, Or Blinds? I Am Lost ,thank You For The Advice


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Melanie Foster said:


> Ask a question, be prepared for an answer. It may not be what you want to hear.


I agree with that. We can and should be honest with people seeking advice regardless if they like it or not. I suppose I'm speaking more about life rather than just dogs, dog training and this forum. I think that many times on the internet, and society in general, honesty comes at the expense of civility. 

Anyway, I'm not trying to stir the pot. I was just trying to promote thought and conversation. 

As for Ed, in the short time I've been reading this board, I have really come to respect his opinion and posts. I meant no disrespect and appreciate that a professional such as yourself takes the time to try to educate people like me.

7pntail - that was hilarious!!!


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Like I said in post #11 ..people have a problem with just the written word ...we want to read into them emotions and feelings ...not just read the words....that is where the problem lies....no such thing as constructive criticism..it is just 
criticism, given for a good purpose..........Steve S


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

EdA said:


> do some misconstrue honesty to be "mean spirited"...?



I don't think so. For example, and I am sure I will be flamed for this, but look at how Howard N. handled a disagreement him and I have about getting a pup to stop biting.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59086

very professional and to the point with very valid arguments. I very much so respect what Howard adds to this community and I hope to someday be close enough to his level to even try and run a dog against him....

Look at how some of the others handle it. I still don't think I am wrong and the method I mentioned worked great for me. There are several other methods mention that differ in this thread and no one else was flamed on the deal.... interesting to say the least.

flame away.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

A few people are just plain mean Chris. Most are not.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

EdA said:


> I guess I don't understand how honesty needs to be presented in some palatable way. Honesty is neither constructive nor destructive or am I missing something fundamental?


Anyone can be honest in the black and white sense (you're wrong, dumarz). I would just like to see it conveyed in a spirit of teaching. Isn't that what the forum is about?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

RF2 said:


> I would just like to see it conveyed in a spirit of teaching. Isn't that what the forum is about?


Perhaps that is what it has become recently, it used to be people BSing on the Internet about dogs, hunting, and stuff. Ahhh the good old days of RTF....


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> This is why I stick around these parts. Wher you gonna find little old ladies with a wicked sense of humor?
> 
> You are one of a kind and I'm hoping that you will be around for to entertain us for a long time to come.
> 
> ...


How many nursing homes you been kicked out of now for raising the blood pressure to dangerously high levels..?

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well heck. I had a few thoughts might as well post em....

Ed is right. Period.

If the truth hurts, change it.

Be careful how you treat people. Shayne for example is into some pretty twisted and sick stuff, so if you treat him the way he wants to be treated you may land in jail. At least in 14 states.

Some people got no sense of humor. Who says calling someone a #$#% moron ain't funny.




/Paul


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

EdA said:


> Perhaps that is what it has become recently, it used to be people BSing on the Internet about dogs, hunting, and stuff. Ahhh the good old days of RTF....



I guess I have been mistaken in what the forum is for then, in which case, I am an idiot and have been going bout things all wrong.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Did I mention yet that I have accomplished what I had hoped to by starting this thread?

It had nothing to do with the behavior or actions of anyone that has posted in this thread.

Thanks, chris


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Damn you got some mean ass little pups don't you.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Did I mention yet that I have accomplished what I had hoped to by starting this thread?
> 
> It had nothing to do with the behavior or actions of anyone that has posted in this thread.
> 
> Thanks, chris


Do you really think you're going to be able to shut this motley crew down once they get on a roll? ;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> but puppy biting is in the top 10 questions I get, despite the 9 pages of take home info I send along.


That's right, me too. I got a call from an older gentleman that said his ankles were all scratched and bitten up. I asked him if he was following my instructions and he said yes. I asked how hard are you correcting? He said he didn't want to hurt the pup. I said make him yelp and he'll stop. He did and said it finally worked like a charm. Where kids are concerned, parents need to get it over quick. I do it around 5 weeks but by 7 weeks they are into full mode biting play with their littermates and they need to be corrected again especially where kids are concerned. When you post on an internet board, be prepared not to be agreed with if someone is more experienced. If you get good advice and ignore it, be prepared not to get good advice when you ask about something else, especially when it is blatantly ignored.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Do you really think you're going to be able to shut this motley crew down once they get on a roll? ;-)


No, and I also realize some of them have short or distorted memories. 

Chris


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Short Bus! Short Bus!


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## Tommy Wallace (Jun 13, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Did I mention yet that I have accomplished what I had hoped to by starting this thread?
> 
> It had nothing to do with the behavior or actions of anyone that has posted in this thread.
> 
> Thanks, chris


I was wondering how long it was going to take you to repeat that. 
Me & my wife have been reading this & when you made this post I told her, well it took him longer than I thought it would. LOL

Man you just got to luv it. It's like watching them daytime soaps.

I hope that like running a confidence blind it gets better & better each time you have to repeat it.

And my name is 
Tommy Wallace LOL


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

EdA said:


> Perhaps that is what it has become recently, it used to be people BSing on the Internet about dogs, hunting, and stuff. Ahhh the good old days of RTF....


Doc, Good old days ? These are the good old days.

BTW love the new avatar.

Besides Bubbas a pecker anyway regards,


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## Chris Rosier (Dec 27, 2008)

First of all, many thanks to Chris for making this forum what it is. I look at a couple of different ones and this one is by far the best. Now for my rant.....

Im just another fairly wet behind the ears noob, training my first dog, but heres my take. Everybody has questions when they first get into this thing. People approach it differently, some people (like me) spend 100's of dollars on training dvd's and books and try to educate themselves as best they can before they ever get a dog. Others just go buy a dog and then when they run into a snag, log in here and fire away a bunch of questions. Most of em probably dont even know there is a search feature and the ones that do could care less because they feel their situation is unique. I know Im stereotyping here but I really dont care, thats the way I see it.

IMO, if you fall into the latter category and just come in here firing questions away without really having any idea what the hell you're talking about, you're begging for any abuse you get so you better toughen up. From what Ive seen around the dog games in the short time that Ive been in it, most people will bend over backwards to help anybody that is willing to help themselves. On the other hand, people that dont even attempt to educate themselves are the ones that get abused and as far as Im concerned, they pretty much deserve it. 

You all know who Im talking about, the guy that wants to know if he can start doing "hand signals" when his puppy is 5 months old. I mean, for petes sake, if you're gonna buy a dog, spend another 20 or 30 bucks on a training book or DVD and at least educate yourself on the basic steps to train it if you're gonna come ask for advice on a forum full of people that have been training dogs for the past 20 or 30 years. If you come here and ask what is the first step in FF and somebody gives you a smartass answer, dont be surprised. If you dont know enough about FF to know what the first step is, you aint got no business trying to FF a dog.

My advice would be this, take this place for what it is, a place to hang out with fellow retriever enthusiasts and shoot the breeze and talk about dogs. If you've got a question, ask it, but dont run your lip out when you dont get the answer you want.

Most of that may sound harsh, but I really dont mean it that way, Im just being honest and if it offends anybody Im sorry. I'll jump down off the soapbox now and go back to reading the jokes.

Rosier


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Considering how loudly pups make each other squeal within the litter, maybe we should make videos of THAT to show people how vocal doesn't equal being mean. Not like we're pinching babies to make them cry. But, the next generation always knows better, just look how wonderful today's kids behave and are educated in school.


You and Erin are just plain mean.;-)


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

duk4me said:


> Besides Bubbas a pecker anyway regards,


I'm telling!!!!

Narking yer ass out to the Janitor regards

Bubba


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

duk4me said:


> You and Erin are just plain mean.;-)


I've said it before, I don't know how the *OW* to the pups works because they can brutalize another puppy and it's screaming bloody murder and does that puppy stop biting-NO, not for a second until you go in and lift the pup off the other pup. I guess Rainmaker and I are the only ones that have these monsters...NOT.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

The good news is, judging by the things the _*Wisconsin sisters*_ (as I affectionately call Rain and Erin) post about, their usefulness, for me at least, has faded. If you need to know raising a litter year or CNM or EIC or what food to feed a puppy they are the people to ask though! 

nothin' but love 

off to work on FTP with the pup, have a great weekend all! 

and I promise not to click on this thread any more Chris and Vickie.... ;-)


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> The really good news is that you have never had any usefulness to me at all, considering how you handled asking for advice on getting your pup in the beginning and were so rude in your pm's to me re; the same, what makes you think I care if I'm of any use to someone like you or not, take experienced advice or not, like it or not, but kick the people in the teeth that you ask, that is ever so typical of the new wave. People like you ask but don't like the answers, so be it, have fun with your dog, I'm glad you are doing something with him anyway and enjoying it.


I was never rude to you in PM, in fact I still have the PMs. I saved them because they are full of great information. I learned a great deal and appreciate the time and thought you put into them. Just because I didn't follow your advice means I was rude? I got 3x as many PMs saying there is nothing wrong with the breeding for what I paid for him. I don't regret getting my dog one bit and have never even communicated with you since then up until the posts I linked above. Very interesting to finally figure out where all the animosity came from though. Sorry I didn't buy a pup from you Kim.

I apologize for any wrong I have done you.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

uh oh...I feel the lid coming down on this one. 

I wonder if the original purpose of thread was ever accomplished???


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

One should at least wait until they get through transition before turning into a Number 2.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote"

savage25xtreme 




Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SW OK
Posts: 461 handling a puppy? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have ordered E. Grahams smart works program and Billhams puppy video, but they aren't hear yet and I have some questions. I have read on here it it important to handle a puppy a lot really young. basically do anything and everything to them to get them use to being touched on. handle feet and ears and legs and tail and everything. I have been trying to do this with my almost 7week BLM and basically the only time he gets scolded to this point is when he bites, he gets a muzzle grab and stern but quiet no. a few things I have noticed. He HATES being picked up by his scruff and gets stiff and cries bloody murder. what does that mean? I can put him on his back and he will fight me for a bit but after 5 seconds calm down, but is definitely uncomfortable. when I hold his feet he jerks them away. Should I work on all these things by doing them more often? do i reward good behavior with a treat? he is getting the idea very fast that he cant bite me or my fiance with the muzzle grabs and no, but I want to try and keep everything positive. I also have been hooking a leash to him and letting him drag it around. when i grab it and keep him from moving he starts fighting pretty hard, but I think that is somewhat normal for a 7 week head strong little boy. 

Thanks for your thoughts and time. 

Whos advise should someone listen too


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> Ahhh the good old days of RTF....


Like when KG was mean to me?


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> The animosity, such as it is, comes from your attitude of entitlement but then you don't like some of the answers and get all pouty.


Please enlighten me on when this occured?



Rainmaker said:


> Some of us pay a good amount of money and spend a lot of time with pros and we work with them in person, NOT an internet trainer regards,


Are you mad you have to pay a pro to have a well trained dog? I don't understand this comment and how it pertains to our conversation. I am sorry you have to pay a pro to be able to make a MH out of your dogs. I'm sorry I like to do my own training, and may never have a MH, time will tell.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Brad said:


> Quote"
> 
> savage25xtreme
> 
> ...


got to start somewhere right? I'm sure most on this forum were born with what they know about dogs.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Yes, you do have to start some where like me and you both have. I dont give advise because there are alot more experienced people out there, and my advice is usually wrong. I have given some facts on problems I have incountered and have asked alot of questions. I may have tried to give a little advice when I first started, but relized real fast I know nothing.
I dont know why you are trying to argue with a lot more experienced people that have been doing it for years.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Free advice to Gavin B, keep digging the hole you're making for yourself or zip it up!;-)


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

Oh great, Chris. _Now_ look you what you've done.

Nice work...enjoying the entertainment. ;-):razz:



ErinsEdge said:


> One should at least wait until they get through transition before turning into a Number 2.


I'm pretty sure it's referred to as Phase 2. Calling someone a Number 2 would be like calling them...um...something kind of potty related.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I once read, on some subject or the other: It is better to be silent and thought to be a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Pretty positive advice to avoid negativity, I thought!


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> I thought the same thing, but then thought maybe she meant it that way after all,


Thats funny right there.
Now I know if Im said to be in phase 2, to keep my mouth shut


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Hey Kim you running Madison?


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

EdA said:


> Free advice to Gavin B, keep digging the hole you're making for yourself or zip it up!;-)



advice taken, wish I had never opened this thread.

I have not given advice only stated what has worked with my dog and what hasn't. Generally prefacing it with "I am no expert, but...."

All I wanted was to not be sh!t on for what I did add,or not add. 

Good luck at your HT Kim.


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Dude, you are clueless. I retired 3 years ago to live my dream and I love pretty much every minute of it, between having puppy breath all I want and more dogs than a normal human should have. I run my own dogs, I pay a pro to take them winter training because we are in the frozen tundra and to do the basics because I am very serious about my dogs and want it done right, no holes. I train 4-5 days a week minimum in season and travel hours to work with pros to show me HANDS ON what I'm doing wrong. I title my own dogs but one. I've got 75+ HT ribbons from walking to the line by myself. I will be running 2 dogs in a double header SH this weekend. Now that you have turned a perfectly entertaining thread into yet another pouting rant, I'm gonna go have some bbq ribs, do a couple more drills, load the van and head out in the a.m to my HT. You have a good one yourself.


I did not know Madison was this weekend. I thought it was valders then Madison. Seen Madison has a double JR. but not a double SR. at either event did i miss something.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think it is possible to be honest, yet courteous. I don't think that is political correctness. Rather, it is good manners.

I think it is possible to disagree without name calling. I don't think that is political correctness. Again, I think it is good manners.

I think that it is easier to engage in poor manners on the internet than it is to do so in person


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Good luck Kim. No I'm hosting a pheasants forever youth event here at the home farm tomorrow. The janitor is in charge of the retriever demo portion. We are up to 60 people, lots of kids coming. I spent the day power washing, weeding, planting, washing windows and cleaning the house. I'm so tired I can't see straight. I am planning on coming up to WI to visit Sharon-next week. Got to pick a day, hoping to visit with some of you guys up that way. Have a great trip, finger and toes crossed for you-no heat and everyone's heads screwed on straight.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Ha! See how tired I am, I thought it was labor day weekend. Gee whiz......I need another drink and a pillow.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I think it is possible to be honest, yet courteous. I don't think that is political correctness. Rather, it is good manners.
> 
> I think it is possible to disagree without name calling. I don't think that is political correctness. Again, I think it is good manners.
> 
> I think that it is easier to engage in poor manners on the internet than it is to do so in person


Great post,,,very well put.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I remember the baptism by fire that I got when I came on board .

I didn't get mad.....I had the foresight to jot down the names;-)

john


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Madison is Labor Day weekend, week from this weekend. Northern Flight in MN is tomorrow with the double SH.


Understand now never looked at our neighboring states much. Mabey next year for a change of pace. THANKS. Also are the lily pads as bad as everybody say they are in madison. Just observing this year have ablf coming along nicely and going to give it a try next year.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I think it is possible to be honest, yet courteous. I don't think that is political correctness. Rather, it is good manners.
> 
> I think it is possible to disagree without name calling. I don't think that is political correctness. Again, I think it is good manners.
> 
> I think that it is easier to engage in poor manners on the internet than it is to do so in person


That's almost exactly what I said in an earlier post. I really appreciate your posts, Ted; I have learned much from them. Not so much from some others.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I think it is possible to be honest, yet courteous. I don't think that is political correctness. Rather, it is good manners.
> 
> I think it is possible to disagree without name calling. I don't think that is political correctness. Again, I think it is good manners.
> 
> I think that it is easier to engage in poor manners on the internet than it is to do so in person





RF2 said:


> That's almost exactly what I said in an earlier post. I really appreciate your posts, Ted; I have learned much from them. Not so much from some others.


 
me too,
Ted is as cool as they come


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> me too,
> Ted is as cool as they come


If you get a chance you should watch his dogs run. Incredible is the word that comes to mind.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

savage25xtreme said:


> If you get a chance you should watch his dogs run. Incredible is the word that comes to mind.


I have met him, just in passing, at the Nat. Am. In Stowe a few years back.
I did not want to pester him much but watched him run a dog…. Nice!
Then after when he was done and I was going to pester him much, they had me move an outhouse.
Never volunteer for “grounds committee” because anything from ruts in a field to dumped over port-O-lets.
Ends up on the ground and that is grounds committee responsibility…….





.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I will put that in my note book of things not to do..... But someone has to do it.


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