# Opinions on Richard Wolters



## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

Having trained only two dogs to be hunter/retrievers my first book I read was Water Dog as it was recommended to me by others who have successfully trained their dogs. I don't do trials just wanted a dog i could go goose and pheasant hunting with. I also train horses so the conditioned response method was familiar to me.

I know the books were written a long time ago and perhaps some ideas have changed and so has available equipment but over time I have noticed in these type of forums a hostility towards Wolters training books and methods. So my question is Why? 

With the advent of DVD's and the need to sell a new product or service it seems to me most of the unpleasantness comes from others wanting to sell stuff to the masses or perhaps its just a lack of appreciation for the work of another. I don't know but maybe someone here can shed some light on this.


----------



## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

As someone that used Wolter's book to train a retriever decades ago, I can attest how much retriever training techniques have advanced in forty years. Modern methods produce a much a better trained retriever with the same amount of effort.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Was my first retriever training book over thirty years ago. Like Russ said it is outdated, kind of like using a manual for a 1942 Ford to fix a modern engine. Sure they are still internal combustion, but things have changed. His early age stuff (7 weeks) is still pretty accurate as dogs haven't changed, but training methods have,
That said it is still a big seller among those who don't really know about training. I hear non-retriever (HT/FT) folks mention it all the time. Usually when someone who knows little about training a retriever sees one of my dogs or finds out I train they tell me how they have Water Dog,


----------



## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

This was also my first book on dog training that I read back in 1997. I knew when I read it that it was outdated, but it is a good way to get started in understanding the concepts related to training a dog to hunt. I also fount the book entertaining....like many of the trainers I have met today....they are a group of folks that can be very entertaining, especially when a group of them are together following a dog field event...


----------



## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

I have the book mentioned and even used it to start my first dog. As mentioned in the above posts, outdated material, I find the "puppy" portion of the material still relevant but the transition portion if you want to call it that can be do more harm than good. 

There's better material, resources and programs available today for the individual that wants to train their own dog, particularly a hunting dog. 

Train your pup and have fun.


----------



## Tyler Pugh (Mar 27, 2014)

Weird that this thread showed up. I found my old Water Dog book the other day (corner of the book is chewed off from my last crazy pup) and read it just for the heck of it. It is entertaining to read but crazy how training methods have advanced.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

It was my first book 40 yrs ago also! I'm on the last chapter! Great book!!


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

"From little acorns mighty oaks grow"


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Met him once. He was one of the early anti-field trial folks. So much ground in dog training, quality breedings, DVD training, books, quality Pros, money , less amateurs training all or a portion of the training, it really isn't worth reading except for entertainment. Like the "retriever bible" of James Lamb free, entertaining, but, not much of a training aid. Most of the "basic" contemporary training of the various Carr based programs, folks training just " hunting dogs" , would be better served going in those directions, in my opinion, if nothing more then speaking the same language about retriever training. Old early conventional, for young dogs, just don't get it anymore in this high tech world. A very old phrase of there are two ways to training a field retriever, the easy way and the other way, might apply here.


----------



## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

He was a good writer and his stuff is an entertaining read however the modern training methods will likely give you better results.


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Criquetpas said:


> Met him once. He was one of the early anti-field trial folks. So much ground in dog training, quality breedings, DVD training, books, quality Pros, money , less amateurs training all or a portion of the training, it really isn't worth reading except for entertainment. Like the "retriever bible" of James Lamb free, entertaining, but, not much of a training aid. Most of the "basic" contemporary training of the various Carr based programs, folks training just " hunting dogs" , would be better served going in those directions, in my opinion, if nothing more then speaking the same language about retriever training. Old early conventional, for young dogs, just don't get it anymore in this high tech world. A very old phrase of there are two ways to training a field retriever, the easy way and the other way, might apply here.


As did I - he showed at the MT State trial in 1965 - very anti FT's - had 2 very nice dogs, one of which ran 
test dog for the Derby as it was overage - also had a Ford PU with a really big camper & huge tire to support 
the load - so other things have changed besides dog training - when he wrote WD it was the most advanced 
basic retriever training available, & remained that way for several years - in those days there was James Lamb 
Free's book, then Water Dog & Blanche Saunders for OB training - & Pfaffenberger for canine behavior plus 
if you were lucky you hooked up with a good group of trainers  -

NFC Baird Centerville Sam was trained by Water Dog & a 1st dog trainer in Walt Baird - after he was sold to 
the Wallace's Tommy Sorenson spent over a year retraining Sam - apparently with great success - 

Didn't he also have something to do with one of the HT venues?

As stated here - lots has changed - there is a lot of info out there - but it still helps to have a good dog to start 
with ;-) -


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Gotta have that book in your library,at least if you're a dog guy.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Yes Marvin that big truck made the rounds and he would do just as you describe to try to discredit field trials. I lost track of him, but, think your correct about the hunt test venues. My early ancestors said it was not polite to talk about the deceased and as a elder will probably leave it alone LOL. Everyone should probably read everything there is about the retriever training venues. The more we learn from the past might prevent the same thing from happening in the future. Many of the younger folks perhaps don't realize some of this "stuff", like James Lamb Free first edition was about 1948, with revisions. He got his start on the South end of my County in Illinois, as did many of the older field trial clubs. I shoveled ( dog crap) on the weekend as a 19 or 20 year old for a guy named Cliff Wallace (Shed of Arden fame) and he in turn helped me train my young Golden I had at the time. I am 71 years young, so one can do the math on some of these older training methods. So an old guy like me who trains with the Lardy Method and has attended a couple of Lardy seminars, one in the last three years, can learn the easy way, just saying.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bruce MacPherson said:


> Gotta have that book in your library,at least if you're a dog guy.


I agree. 

Edit to post: Another favorite read of mine is Charles Morgan "On Retrievers"


----------



## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

I would gather that many whom are competent trainers today and have been involved with retrievers for 30 years or more, likely got started or interested by reading Wolters WATER DOG. Like most technical fields, there has been much evolution in the methodology of training retrievers since Wolters wrote that book. I recently read the book again and found it quite amusing to compare what was to what is. Those new to the training of retrievers and the world of HT's and FT's are very fortunate to have access to so many great sources of retriever training related materials, DVD's, BOOKS, CLUBS, CLINICS, MAGAZINES, and INTERNET sites such as RTF put much valued knowledge at one's fingertips.

I did not know Richard Wolters personally, but like many, he sparked my interest in the training of retrievers and I am grateful to him for that, something that many can relate to. I have learned much from others that have continued as leaders in the development of state of the art training techniques, those being beyond what Wolters may have ever imagined, but like many of them as well, I am fortunate to have had access to Wolters work to pull me into the world of retrievers and working with them.

IRISHWHISTLER


----------



## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

Marvin S said:


> Didn't he also have something to do with one of the HT venues?


I think he was a big advocate of NAHRA. I remember him claiming that they saved the lab breed.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

He was an iconoclast for sure, very flamboyant and loved the limelight, but Water Dog was the book that got me going in the sport back in 79. I was living in tiny Lanai City on the Pineapple Isle when my girlfriend gave me a little Golden pup for Christmas. I went down to the Lanai City library and found an old copy of Water Dog. That book was all I had, and I followed it religiously. Looking back I also realize I had the perfect dog for a newbie, she was very birdy, loved to retrieve, loved water, smart, sensitive and anxious to please.

With that dog, that book worked perfect, she advanced step by step, day by day just as described by Wolters. 12 years later I got my second dog, a heady willful Golden male who frustrated the heck out of me. I used Wolters Game Dog with him, and between me, dog and book, it was a disaster. I actually called Richard Wolters at his home in New York to seek advise. He was very nice, though a little exasperated. He told me I was taking his book way too literally, and my best course of action was to seek out a good amateur who could take me under his wing. I did that and the rest is history, that dog and I learned together, working our way through, Jh, SH, MH and countless great hunts before I moved into field trials with better bred dogs and modern training.


----------



## Tyler Pugh (Mar 27, 2014)

MooseGooser said:


> It was my first book 40 yrs ago also! I'm on the last chapter! Great book!!


You never fail to make me laugh!


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

BJGatley said:


> I agree.
> 
> Edit to post: Another favorite read of mine is Charles Morgan "On Retrievers"


Now that is a classic and he was a man ahead of his time..D.L. got him to sit for recordings. I was at Eagle Wisconsin running a sanction field trial when he died of a heart attack..It is forever known as Morgan Hill was there last Sunday...reminiscing after I came back training.


----------



## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

We met him at a NAHRA test and diner 25?years ago. Even got his autograph on one of his books. I think we have 3 or 4 of his books.


----------



## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

*Eagle, Wisconsin*



Criquetpas said:


> Now that is a classic and he was a man ahead of his time..D.L. got him to sit for recordings. I was at Eagle Wisconsin running a sanction field trial when he died of a heart attack..It is forever known as Morgan Hill was there last Sunday...reminiscing after I came back training.


The Sanctioned circuit at Eagle, Wisconsin was where many of us started in
field trials in the early '60's. Charlie was always there, and his proteges, Junior
Berth, Bill Voigt, Jake Baird and the great Orin Benson.

Charlie's book is a must. Also, D. L's Blind Ambition. 

As my friend OSB said - "today's dogs are better trained and whistle refusals within hearing distance are largely a thing of the past. 
Other than in the training area it seems to me that the game has deteriorated. At our recent licensed trial the Open first series with 80 dogs featured a triple with two of the marks over 300 yards in length. I watched it about 20 minutes and departed bored. It isn't marking - it's lining - no dog is physically capable of marking a bird to the ground which is 300 yards away.

Some years ago I won an Open with Pic in which he stepped on the water quad and swam for 26 minutes in the process.

The good thing about this trend from my standpoint is that when I see these tests I feel no disappointment over being out of the game".
(Oscar S. Brewer letter to W. D. Connor 29 April 1998).

Bill Connor


----------



## dogluvah (Apr 24, 2012)

I read Wolters' books, taking into account the era they were written, and enjoyed them tremendously. His love for dogs clearly shines through all his writings. Blending his information with my own regular dog training skills got me started. His books make you believe an amatuer can train a decent retriever, and have fun doing it. Since then I've gotten the Lardy videos and others, plus practically every single book written on training hunting retrievers. The "lingo" made much of the newer stuff hard to understand. You are just expected to know what they are talking about. Poison birds and many other terms made no sense in the beginning. James Spencer's writings helped me decode much of the retriever language. Again, perhaps not the best trainer, but very beginner friendly and inspiring. I believe there is a place for all the books.The more you read, the more discerning you become about what will work for you, and your dog. We recently had our young pup at very small club training day. Pup is collar conditioned, but has not yet been FF. He was doing quite well in new setting, running much longer marks through heavier cover than he is used to. He needed encouragement on recall with his last return, responded well to come-in whistle with collar reinforcement. Then he dropped that last bird at my feet rather than delivering to hand. I realized I had pushed him a bit too much, showing him off, and packed him up. He is collar conditioned, but not yet FF. A club member that started the sport the same year I did, told me that was "all wrong" and "you must FF before CC, Lardy says so" . I told him there are no rules to training and we were doing just fine. I was polite enough not to point out that he had pulled his first pup out of HT at the started/junior level for severe "sticking"(see now I know the lingo), and it never misses a chance to run a bank. My dog of the same age, our current pup's mother, is a UKC titled Seasoned hunter, with AKC senior passes. So, my take on books and videos...read them all. Learn what you can from each- about the standards required, and how to teach dogs. You can "pick a program", to use the most oft written phrase on RTF, but don't follow it blindly. A program ensures skills are taught sequentially, and nothing important is missed. Programs may differ slightly, but there are only so many skills to be taught, and there are only so many basic methods of educating dogs. So unlike my fellow club member, I won't trash anyone with a different plan. I think someone can still take a dog they love, read Wolters' books, and have fun training themselves a hunting dog. If you want a competitive FT dog, that is another matter all together. Even a top level HT dog now needs more than just Wolters, the games have changed so much. 

If someone has never, ever, used a computer, you don't just hand them a Windows8 manual. You give them a book descibing what a computer is, and how it functions. I equate Wolters' books to that introductory step. You'll be able to use computer as a word processor and send email. You need more resources to do Excel spreadsheets or Powerpoint presentations.


----------



## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

Glad to read so many positive responses. I have read other forums and the impress i got was a rather hostile attitude towards RW. 

When its said that training methods have improved or changed- can you be more specific? Conditioned response is still just that. That isn't much different and doesn't change over time. having only trained two dogs I don't have alot of experience to go on.


----------



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

The most immediate and obvious difference between _Water Dog_ and all the current DVD's/manuals/books is the use of the e-collar. 

E-collars were very crude (if they existed at all) at the time the book was published. I got the book and my first retriever in the mid 70's and got involved with the Western NY RC. My sense at that time was that the main animus was between the "collar crowd" and the "conventional" folks. 

As people here have said, the sophistication of the technology and modern methods have made the old arguments moot.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

farmbabe said:


> Glad to read so many positive responses. I have read other forums and the impress i got was a rather hostile attitude towards RW.
> 
> When its said that training methods have improved or changed- can you be more specific? Conditioned response is still just that. That isn't much different and doesn't change over time. having only trained two dogs I don't have alot of experience to go on.


Wolters book would still work in creating a nice "meat dog" for the average joe Blow, but for the highly technical advanced work we see in master now a days, I don't think it would suffice. Back in the day you saw guys with untrained Labs throwing dirt clods out in the water trying coax their dog to pick up a dead duck floating in the decoys. A Water Dog trained dog was light years ahead of that guy.

Now through the multiple hunt test games, many good video training programs, easy access to good pros and solid amateur group help in many parts of the country, our expectations of good dog work has far surpass what Wolters taught back in the day.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Dogluvah, that was an excellent post!


----------



## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

John Robinson said:


> Wolters book would still work in creating a nice "meat dog" for the average joe Blow, but for the highly technical advanced work we see in master now a days, I don't think it would suffice. Back in the day you saw guys with untrained Labs throwing dirt clods out in the water trying coax their dog to pick up a dead duck floating in the decoys. A Water Dog trained dog was light years ahead of that guy.
> 
> Now through the multiple hunt test games, many good video training programs, easy access to good pros and solid amateur group help in many parts of the country, our expectations of good dog work has far surpass what Wolters taught back in the day.


What he said....


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I Like most trained my first dog with it..other dogs we've gone for more modern approaches. I still like his approach to the upland training and nose. Worked my first dog is really nice in that area. So I might blow the dust off of it for my next pup, just for the nose aspect; which seems to be lacking in most of the modern methods.


----------



## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

thanks for the comments. I am always looking for new ideas and methods of training since all dogs are different. They don't always respond to the same training - much like horses. I was just a l\bit curious why the hostility towards RW and his books. It sounded to me to be more personal in nature than anything else.

In training dogs and horses I use a variety of sources and use what works. What works in one dog ( horse) doesn't always work with another. This is why I like this forum.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

One thing about Richard Wolters, he made an impact. Here we are... How many years after his death? Still debating his methods, books etc... The man lived an incredible life... And lived it with a passion. The fact that so many are discussing, his writings on dogs (which are just a small part of who he was) is a testament to that.


----------



## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Sometimes in the woods with a whistle in my mouth I am reminded of the DVD / copied from a VHS format and Wolters just blowing that whistle like a mad man... Everything revolved around the whistle ... he loved his dogs and his methods worked when all we had were magazines like Gun Dog to read. He was a happy man as long as he was spending the day training dogs.


----------



## FGD Mike Smith (Jan 5, 2012)

I recommend that everyone new to training retrievers read Water Dog. It gives you a good understanding of how modern methods works. Kind of like a history lesson. Then from there, go with one of the many great programs that are offered. Good luck.


----------



## Pepto95 (Aug 12, 2014)

Last year I decided I was going to get my first dog whenmy house was built. When I told everyone about my plans I ended up with a copyof Water Dog from a family friend. He told me to follow this from the day I gethim and I will be amazed at how fast he learns. All I really wanted was acompanion dog since the only bird hunting I do is a yearly dove hunt. Well,after I read the book I was pumped up about training him. The day I picked himup was the first night I spent in my house. I must have read the book 5-6 timesin the first few weeks and I followed it week by week. Sure enough pup pickedup everything exactly how the book explained. Then at 20 weeks old the door slammedshut and both of us were frustrated and confused. I joined a retriever club atthis time and they referred me to Hillman's DVD's; now we are back to havingfun and advancing in training. If it wasn't for WaterDog I would have a "welfare dog." Now a couple hundred trainingsessions (and dollars) later I'm starting to get one fine looking dog and I'mlooking at getting into duck hunting and hunt tests. The book may not be thebest way to train anymore but it is the perfect book for someone like me, a personwho doesn’t have a clue about dogs or training. The book gets them excitedabout training their dog and gets them started in the training process. Fromthere you move into the modern training programs.


----------



## Pepto95 (Aug 12, 2014)

Does anyone know why when I make a post I have spaces missing between words? I tried typing the last post in MS Word and copy it over but it still skips the spaces. If I hit edit post the spaces show up on the edit screen. It's irritating.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

WATER DOG was the second book that I purchased, the first was TRAINING YOUR RETRIEVER James Lamb Free. I then started a collection of retriever training books that sits next to my antique decoy collection. As John Robinson says, you can train a good meat dog by using that book.


----------



## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

Since what i want is a solid retriever and I am not doing any trials- a meat dog is exactly what I want. Plus a good family dog that we can enjoy all year long. I had that with my previous dog Sparty who I lost this summer. Now with my new puppy I am starting all over again. Its easy to take for granted a dog that is already trained both in the house and in the field..)


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

farmbabe said:


> Since what i want is a solid retriever and I am not doing any trials- a meat dog is exactly what I want. Plus a good family dog that we can enjoy all year long. I had that with my previous dog Sparty who I lost this summer. Now with my new puppy I am starting all over again. Its easy to take for granted a dog that is already trained both in the house and in the field..)


Water Dog or Game Dog might work fine, but be aware that not all dogs go through Wolters program the same. As I stated on an earlier post, my first dog went through it like clock work, while my next dog was three weeks behind after two weeks. That latter dog, who seemed like a hopeless loser with Wolters, breezed thru JH, SH and MH using a conventional program.


----------



## Rocketcityretrievers (Apr 10, 2014)

Outdated, but you could still use it to produce a high quality dog. I believe you won't get there as quickly as that of new methodologies of training


----------



## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

I agree with that john. While i like to use the conditioned /response methods for training,Gunny isn't on a time line so to speak. He will learn when he learns. I do plan to use more of the e-collar when its appropriate. Right now we are happy to just do sit-stay-come. Gunny has been exposed to gun shots,dead birds and feathers. So far he loves them all.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

farmbabe said:


> I agree with that john. While i like to use the conditioned /response methods for training,Gunny isn't on a time line so to speak. He will learn when he learns. I do plan to use more of the e-collar when its appropriate. Right now we are happy to just do sit-stay-come. Gunny has been exposed to gun shots,dead birds and feathers. So far he loves them all.


Sounds like you have things well in hand. I just got spoiled with my first dog breezing through, I just assumed that Wolters program was perfect, and the day 49, day 52, day 65 stuff would be the same for every dog. When my next dog fell behind so fast, me being engineer minded like I am, I panicked and assumed my dog was a loser.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> Sounds like you have things well in hand. I just got spoiled with my first dog breezing through, I just assumed that Wolters program was perfect, ....


Does help any to know that Wolters couldn't train his second dog, that he had to use a pro named Richard MacDonald?


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:


> Does help any to know that Wolters couldn't train his second dog, that he had to use a pro named Richard MacDonald?


Did the pro use Water Dog?


----------



## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

I have had those moments with this pup. My other dog Sparty was very mild mannered. he rarely ever rebelled. This one is a tough nut to crack. I keep telling myself- he is only 13 weeks. Once you get past the idea every dog has to do this or that at a certain age things seem progress anyway.


----------



## Larry R. Heil (Aug 18, 2005)

Charles Morgan was quite a character. I loved the book and so did John Honore who knew him personally


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> Did the pro use Water Dog?


I suspect not.<g>


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I was not aware of Richard Macdonald having one of Wolters dogs but I don't doubt it. Richard M was involved in the NAHRA program at that time. Richard W had a dog named RAWs Tartu and I think that is who Eric is referencing. 

Richard W's last dog was RAW's Southland Duck Soup. "Duck"
was trained by pro Charlie Jurney. Charlie also did the VHS tape Gamedog which used Wolters' name but was a departure from Wolters' writings. 

Wolters claimed that Tartu (a second lab after his first Tar was gone) was not force broke nor e-collar trained. Wolters' final lab Duck was ffd and e-collar trained. Wolters actually documented it in the NAHRA news magazine. He was just getting with the more modern retriever times shortly before his death.

I enjoyed Richard Wolters. I consider myself fortunate to have spent some time with him a few times - one of which was as a young handler, running a young lab at a retriever demo. It was Wolters' show and what a showman he was!

Chris


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:


> Does help any to know that Wolters couldn't train his second dog, that he had to use a pro named Richard MacDonald?


Helps show that you may get some pleasure out of your statement about a dead man. 

How do you what he could or couldn't do? And that he "had" to use said pro?

Maybe at the age he was by then, it was more a matter of convenience?

Unless of course you are related or were personal friends with Mr. Wolters?

Anything else would be just dog game gossip.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I was not aware of Richard Macdonald having one of Wolters dogs but I don't doubt it. Richard M was involved in the NAHRA program at that time. Richard W had a dog named RAWs Tartu and I think that is who Eric is referencing.
> 
> Richard W's last dog was RAW's Southland Duck Soup. "Duck"
> was trained by pro Charlie Jurney. Charlie also did the VHS tape Gamedog which used Wolters' name but was a departure from Wolters' writings.
> ...


Well folks, I was WRONG! 

Eric was right about the Richard MacDonald part. 

I would have bet big money that it was Charlie Jurney, but no, it was Richard MacDonald who RAW credited with e-collar training "Duck".

(However Charlie also did train and handle Duck as well, and Charlie did do the VHS I mentioned earlier)

Here's THE article link (the Wolters Speaks column, which continues over to page 28): http://www.nahra3.info/HistoryProject/NNV-VIII1-1Q1993.pdf

Wolters Has "Duck" e-collar trained by Richard Macdonald (both links go to the same .pdf file)

The NAHRA history page has several issues of the NAHRA news, which can be fun to read. For me, I could look at some of those magazine covers and articles and it took me back in time. One can certainly get a flavor for RAW's character in his "Wolters Speaks" Columns.

Whether we agree with Wolters' training books or not, he certainly made his mark on the retriever community. 

Again, I was glad to have known him and I hope he considered me a friend.

Chris


----------

