# Lardy or Graham



## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

I am looking for a new all inclusive training program for a pup I will be getting after the 1st of the year. I have tried to find and read about as much as I can and decipher/read between the lines on what folks post. I believe I have narrowed it down to these 2 systems, waterdog just won't do anymore. What I am wondering, for those that have used either or both, what can you tell me? I want to go from puppy all the way through and include collar conditioning as well. I'm no expert and would say my knowledge/training level to be on the low side. Good thing for me is I have a friend who is a pro and has helped a ton as well as my retriever club. I am wanting the satisfaction of saying this dog is all me.

Thanks in advance!


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## WPS (Jun 14, 2014)

I did a search for you cause I'm in a very similar boat as you but I'm trying to decide between Lardy and Hillman but I don't have a pro or club around that I know of (I just need to look harder). I would ask your friend that is the pro, especially if he will be helping you train the dog. Anyways, here's the post I found in response to someone asking about Lardy's DVD's:

This all depends on your experience and training situation. How much experience do you have, novice, experienced, train alone or with a group. IMO theLardy video is well worth $150 if you have background in training. It seems to me there are some holes if you are a novice, some things are assumed you know. If you are rather new and train alone it could be easy to get lost and frustrated. If you have some solid training experience or work with a group that can see you and your dog to answer questions it would help.

The Evan Graham videos are much more detailed and appear to be more geared for the novice.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

WPS said:


> I did a search for you cause I'm in a very similar boat as you but I'm trying to decide between Lardy and Hillman but I don't have a pro or club around that I know of (I just need to look harder). I would ask your friend that is the pro, especially if he will be helping you train the dog. Anyways, here's the post I found in response to someone asking about Lardy's DVD's:
> 
> This all depends on your experience and training situation. How much experience do you have, novice, experienced, train alone or with a group. IMO theLardy video is well worth $150 if you have background in training. It seems to me there are some holes if you are a novice, some things are assumed you know. If you are rather new and train alone it could be easy to get lost and frustrated. If you have some solid training experience or work with a group that can see you and your dog to answer questions it would help.
> 
> The Evan Graham videos are much more detailed and appear to be more geared for the novice.


I actually found that same post. My buddy has the Graham DVDs and books laying around. I plan on training this one through myself, as I feel like I'm leaching off him and such. Plus I like doing things myself.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

I disagree with that statement about Lardy completely. I knew absolutely nothing about training and I got TRT followed it step by step only moving on when my dog performed each task with the same competency as the demo dog. I had a pro and a very experienced am both test out how well forced my dog was. They couldn't find anything to criticize. With TRT and the help of club members my dog got a derby 4th at 13 months and hrch at 2. So unless you want to flatter me and say I'm smarter than everyone else TRT is not too complicated for a novice. Just know nothing he does is by accident every move is calculated and you need to watch intently not while you're doing other things. I watched it several times actually.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Blue Tick said:


> I am looking for a new all inclusive training program for a pup I will be getting after the 1st of the year. I have tried to find and read about as much as I can and decipher/read between the lines on what folks post. I believe I have narrowed it down to these 2 systems, waterdog just won't do anymore. What I am wondering, for those that have used either or both, what can you tell me? I want to go from puppy all the way through and include collar conditioning as well. I'm no expert and would say my knowledge/training level to be on the low side. *Good thing for me is I have a friend who is a pro and has helped a ton as well as my retriever club*. I am wanting the satisfaction of saying this dog is all me.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


You just answered your own question, the solutions are right in front of you


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

If you have a friend who is a pro, that would be the first person to ask. They two programs are quite similar, though, and both would work well for a beginner, if followed.

With Lardy, though, don't forget the article books. This is where the most detailed information is. Read them carefully. They are not hard to understand but his writing style is nicely efficient and there is a TON of information packed into each short article.

The biggest advantage of going with Smartworks is that Evan is very available if you have questions about anything and is very helpful. I follow the Lardy stuff myself but often recommend smartworks to newer folks because of this one big advantage.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

A recent poster said Smartworks is esoteric. I had to look up esoteric and about choked on my beverage. I use TRT not Smartworks but have friends that do. Based on what they have told me, nothing can be further from the truth.
To a certain degree it's a personal choice. Both are force based systems. My preference was Lardy because that was the system that the pro I was apprenticing with used.

You are right to consult with an experienced amateur or pro periodically regardless of which program you select. Much in the way Daren posted above. Of course they should use the program that you are following.


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## P J (Dec 10, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> The biggest advantage of going with Smartworks is that Evan is very available if you have questions about anything and is very helpful. I follow the Lardy stuff myself but often recommend smartworks to newer folks because of this one big advantage.


I trained my dog using Smartworks, she is the first dog I have ever trained or handled in any AKC or UKC event. Evan personally answered questions several times for me. That was a bonus to me. 

I do wish I had used Bill Hillman's Puppy DVD as well. 

I have friends that used Lardy on their first dogs with success HRCH, MH***, but also used Bill Hillman's Puppy DVD on their second dogs.


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## FieldLab (Aug 5, 2011)

Loved to know what esoteric means


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone <a body of esoteric legal doctrine — B. N. Cardozo> b : requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group <esoteric terminology> ; broadly : difficult to understand


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## jonathon27 (Feb 12, 2012)

Lardy!!!!!


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

I am leaning at this point more towards smart works. Does anyone happen to know what the difference is between The Works and Total Package? Obviously the total package has more in it, but i don't know what it has that the works doesn't.


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

Throw one more at you- Judy Aycock and Danny Farmer have a marvelous set of DVDs out.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

TexGold said:


> Throw one more at you- Judy Aycock and Danny Farmer have a marvelous set of DVDs out.


Worth a look. Do you know what they are titled?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Blue Tick said:


> I am leaning at this point more towards smart works. Does anyone happen to know what the difference is between The Works and Total Package? Obviously the total package has more in it, but i don't know what it has that the works doesn't.


The Total Package Special has all 3 books, plus every DVD in the entire program, including the specialty volumes on Walking Baseball, and so on. If you need more information email me at [email protected]

Evan


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

With Lardys TRT do you get all of his DVD's and books or do you still have to purchase the marking and others?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Blue Tick said:


> With Lardys TRT do you get all of his DVD's and books or do you still have to purchase the marking and others?


Marking DVD is seperate but believe they have a reduced rate if ordered together with TRT. Collar conditioning DVD is seperate (and worth the 60.00 IMO). There is also 4 journals for 30.00 each, or all four for 89.00 at last check. They supplement the DVD's, but you can get by without em.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

freezeland said:


> Marking DVD is seperate but believe they have a reduced rate if ordered together with TRT. Collar conditioning DVD is seperate (and worth the 60.00 IMO). There is also 4 journals for 30.00 each, or all four for 89.00 at last check. They supplement the DVD's, but you can get by without em.


Thanks. I'm still up in the air between these 2 systems. All in all though, cost seems to be relatively close.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Don't let cost be the only deciding factor. I have owned both and Stawski's and Farmers and Attars. All are great but if I had to pick one it would be Lardy's with the articles too.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> Don't let cost be the only deciding factor. I have owned both and Stawski's and Farmers and Attars. All are great but if I had to pick one it would be Lardy's with the articles too.


Cost is definitely not the deciding factor. Since you have owned both systems I'm looking into, what did you like/not like about smartworks versus trt? I have talked wit Evan via PM and have been waiting a week now on email answers to some questions about trt!


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Blue Tick said:


> Cost is definitely not the deciding factor. Since you have owned both systems I'm looking into, what did you like/not like about smartworks versus trt? I have talked wit Evan via PM and have been waiting a week now on email answers to some questions about trt!


That's because Evan sells videos and Mike trains champions. Think about it.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

Migillicutty said:


> That's because Evan sells videos and Mike trains champions. Think about it.


So what do I need to think about? I don't know enough about either system to say one is better than the other. Can you add something about either program???

Does the trt program start with puppy and work forward?


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

Chris, I was trying to respond to your PM but your inbox is full.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Blue Tick said:


> Chris, I was trying to respond to your PM but your inbox is full.



OK thanks. I made room. Please resend. Sorry!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Blue Tick said:


> So what do I need to think about? I don't know enough about either system to say one is better than the other. Can you add something about either program???
> 
> Does the trt program start with puppy and work forward?


It was a little harsh, but I think the point was that Mike is probably pretty busy with the dogs on the truck at the moment and generally (not just with a couple of weeks before the national) going to be less accessible. It doesn't reflect on the system, it just is. The systems are very similar and either will work. If you are the kind that will have lots of questions, Evan is more accessible for sure in that regard but most folks on RTF are more familiar with Lardy so you can get answers here, although you may have to sort through one or two who aren't the most qualified to be giving training advice.

TRT starts with puppy and moves forward, but it is older puppy. For great early puppy stuff, Jackie Mertens or Cherylon Loveland have put out the best.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

DoubleHaul said:


> It was a little harsh, but I think the point was that Mike is probably pretty busy with the dogs on the truck at the moment and generally (not just with a couple of weeks before the national) going to be less accessible. It doesn't reflect on the system, it just is. The systems are very similar and either will work. If you are the kind that will have lots of questions, Evan is more accessible for sure in that regard but most folks on RTF are more familiar with Lardy so you can get answers here, although you may have to sort through one or two who aren't the most qualified to be giving training advice.
> 
> TRT starts with puppy and moves forward, but it is older puppy. For great early puppy stuff, Jackie Mertens or Cherylon Loveland have put out the best.


Thank you. I don't foresee tons of questions, but I am sure I will have some along the way. As I said in my op, my training level is a bit on the low side. I'm just looking to make the purchase right the 1st time.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

I've read this thread three times.

Based off of all your post.

You should go with Smartworks. Evan will be readily available here or Facebook for any questions you might have,
which seem to be quite a lot. Nothing wrong with that either, but if (you) go TRT, I think (you'll) be on here a lot more often.

My 0.02¢


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I just noticed for the first time AKC reports on the kennels with the most points in the all age field trials. Guess which kennel is number one: Hanjem. I think I misspelled it but Lardy's kennel.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

A bit like asking 'who is the better boxer' ...Ali or Tyson?
Or the best Prix de larc' winner that Colonel Blimp alluded to on another thread?

Of course ,if it's a two horse race then it's either or 'Or' !


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

Clay hands down....


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

480/277 said:


> Clay hands down....


Agreed!...But change the weight or category and it's 'Sugar Ray' all the way .....IMO


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

polmaise said:


> Agreed!...But change the weight or category and it's 'Sugar Ray' all the way .....IMO


I'll never forget Sugar Ray lifting Marvelous Marvin Hagler off the canvas with upper cuts.....


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Lardy or Graham?
......................
Bill or Ben !..
Depends where your Bill (dollar) is or your Ben (lean to) is. I suppose?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Lardy and Graham have totally different styles. This is obvious in their writing. To figure out which is for you, buy Lardy's vol. 1 articles and Grahams book. Then buy the DVDs of the author whose writing style is more appealing to you.

If money is truly no object, then buy both---get Lardy's TRT DVDs+Lardy's vol. 1 articles and Grahams book + the first few DVDs of Graham's basics DVDs.

I started with Smartworks/Graham and but ended up switching to Lardy's TRT.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

mitty said:


> Lardy and Graham have totally different styles. /QUOTE]
> Renee, do you mean ...like Clay and Sugar Ray?
> 
> Or, just what is presented ?


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## jim schaefer (Oct 28, 2012)

Keep in mind, this is a big investment, time, love and money. what are your goals for this dog? Is the dog breeding compatible to your goals, field trail, hunt test or meat hunter. How I dislike using those terms. Why, the difference in the terms, the degree of training. Is the pup from easy to train blood lines or fire breathing dragons or soft. You will need to remember training material is only for reference. 5 dogs with same problem, can be 5 different solutions. So set out with a plan and stick to it. A to Z

I disagree with so much on here. Why, the best football player does not make the best coach. Lardy is a great trainer and so is Graham. I have used both. I like Grahams, because he supports the handler not just his program.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

polmaise said:


> mitty said:
> 
> 
> > Lardy and Graham have totally different styles. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Take a LONG hard look at the performance record. Count up how many NATIONAL CHAMPIONS have been trained by either individual and then decide.

Mathematical elimination regards

Bubba


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

mitty said:


> Lardy and Graham have totally different styles. This is obvious in their writing. To figure out which is for you, buy Lardy's vol. 1 articles and Grahams book. Then buy the DVDs of the author whose writing style is more appealing to you.
> 
> If money is truly no object, then buy both---get Lardy's TRT DVDs+Lardy's vol. 1 articles and Grahams book + the first few DVDs of Graham's basics DVDs.
> 
> I started with Smartworks/Graham and but ended up switching to Lardy's TRT.





mitty said:


> polmaise said:
> 
> 
> > Well, darn, I don't know who Clay is, and I think Sugar Ray is a boxer but when I googled Sugar Ray all I come up with is some fancy musician!
> ...


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Blue Tick said:


> Cost is definitely not the deciding factor. Since you have owned both systems I'm looking into, what did you like/not like about smartworks versus trt? I have talked wit Evan via PM and have been waiting a week now on email answers to some questions about trt!



TRT just made more sense to me and the pro's that I have used and currently use have programs that mirror TRT much closer than Evan's. I have had the chance to chat with Mike at trials and he has always been helpful too.


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

My preference is the Lardy system accompanied by the Lardy basic seminar at Handjem. Best if you can take your dog and get hands on instruction. Some of the best money I ever spent of the tons of dollars I've blown in this sport.......


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Hillman puppy followed by Lardy or Graham. Choose based on the style of materials you like best. They are essentially the same program (adaptations of Carr).


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Hillman puppy followed by Lardy or Graham. Choose based on the style of materials you like best. They are essentially the same program (adaptations of Carr).


I have the Hillman puppy and FF. Highly recommend. I will follow up with Hillman's land and water.

I do have the Smartworks books (but not the videos) and Hillman seems to fit better for me.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> I have a bunch of Smartworks/Graham DVDs that I have never watched. I read and watched the puppy/Basics ones carefully. I got stymied early on, so I asked questions and was told to study the manual more carefully. I'm still miffed.


How can it surprise you not to understand what you never watched? I can help, but not if you don't do your part. No one can do that. You inquired, but conducted only a superficial conversation. Want to know about a the many people who followed the program and succeeded? Will you do the reading if I lead the way to the information? I'm glad to help anytime. But at least meet me halfway on this.

Evan


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Evan said:


> How can it surprise you not to understand what you never watched? I can help, but not if you don't do your part. No one can do that. You inquired, but conducted only a superficial conversation. Want to know about a the many people who followed the program and succeeded? Will you do the reading if I lead the way to the information? I'm glad to help anytime. But at least meet me halfway on this.
> 
> Evan


What part of "I read and watched the puppy/Basics ones carefully" do you not understand? Being told to study harder is not helpful!

I am also wondering what conversation you are referencing. I looked for the thread and could not find it. It would be dated around March or April 2011, when I was going through collar conditioning with my now 3 year old dog.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

> Personal message, often abbreviated as *PM*,
> is a private form of communication between different members on a platform.
> It is only seen and accessible by the users participating in the message.






/


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Blue Tick said:


> Cost is definitely not the deciding factor. Since you have owned both systems I'm looking into, what did you like/not like about smartworks versus trt? I have talked wit Evan via PM and have been waiting a week now on email answers to some questions about trt!


If they were to YBS media, your probably not going to get an answer


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

We had a brief, minimal dialogue Renee, and no real discussion. You provided me with no detail about what you were having trouble with. How can I help you under those circumstances?

Evan


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Blue, I think you are over analyzing this. Just pick one and move on. Lardy and Ybs media folks are working to get ready for upcoming major events. You are not going to get anymore information than you have which is P for plenty. I am not trying to be a smart alec.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Blue, I think you are over analyzing this. Just pick one and move on. Lardy and Ybs media folks are working to get ready for upcoming major events. You are not going to get anymore information than you have which is P for plenty. I am not trying to be a smart alec.


No worries Wayne. I tend to over analyze lots of things, guess I learned that from the nature of my job. I do think I am going to go with TRT and the readings. Now I am on the search for a good used 2nd edition set.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

bt,
programs are for sissies. get tough!
jmc;-)


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Lots of sissies out there.


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## BTK (Aug 31, 2015)

Has anyone read the books that come with either of these two programs? Looking at getting a new pup and was interested in following one of these. Anyone have any new input that has followed one of these programs recently since this discussion was last year?


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## cubdriver (Jan 1, 2006)

I have used TRT in the past and it worked for me. That being said, I am now well into Hillman's program with my 9 month old lab and am very pleased with how things are going. I liked his "Training a Retriever Pup", " Traffic Cop", "Fetch" and am now into "Land fundamentals". One can use it all of the way or switch into TRT after the early DVD's.


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## BTK (Aug 31, 2015)

cubdriver said:


> I have used TRT in the past and it worked for me. That being said, I am now well into Hillman's program with my 9 month old lab and am very pleased with how things are going. I liked his "Training a Retriever Pup", " Traffic Cop", "Fetch" and am now into "Land fundamentals". One can use it all of the way or switch into TRT after the early DVD's.


Thank you! I was strongly considering following Hillmann's program too. I see a lot of people start with his puppy program and highly recommend it, then move onto something else. I always wondered the reason behind this. I found his training theories to be very interesting. Would you recommend Hillmann for a novice trainer? Can you tell a difference so far using Hillmans program as opposed to others?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

roseberry said:


> bt,
> programs are for sissies. get tough!
> jmc;-)


This is a new one!!!! I am a sissy as I did follow Stawski early on for HRC. So there.


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## BTK (Aug 31, 2015)

I laughed at this too. I guess I will be a sissy and follow a program.


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## cubdriver (Jan 1, 2006)

BTK,

Part of the reason handlers start with Hillmann and move into something else is because originally he only had the early tapes so they had to move elsewhere. Another reason is that a number of individuals have been ingrained into the earlier programs and start with Hillmann just to develop the 'sit' strongly and then fall back into what has been more familiar to them in the past. A novice can follow his program. I used to have problems with sitting on the line and don't think that I will after using his method; it is a primary emphasis in his program. It has seemed to take longer for me to get through FF with his program but I have stuck with it and believe that I will be pleased when done. My lab pup is only 9 months old so time will tell...


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

You aren't going to find a single program that takes you from puppy training to advanced work.

I know it's hard to stomach but it's going to cost you a few hundred bucks.

i have "sound beginnings" Hillmann's "Training A Retriever Puppy" and Lardy's "TRT2".

I plan on getting Lardy's Marking DVD as well. I also joined an area HRC.

I think these together along with the advise from the pro in the HRC will give me a pretty good program from start to finish.


As I'm sitting here typing this I'm contemplating buying a FF DVD as well.


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## BTK (Aug 31, 2015)

Do you notice any problems transitioning from a Hillmann style of training to Lardy then? From what I understand, his use of the e-collar is a bit different. Do you have to recondition the dog from the Hillmann style to the more traditional use?


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

I started out with Smartworks, and learned a ton and it worked very well for me. I also watched TRT, and it was much of the same information. I then watched Stawski's videos and those were very good too. Then I got a second dog, and realized just how good the basics are in Smartworks. Next pup I train will be by the book Smartworks.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

BTK said:


> Do you notice any problems transitioning from a Hillmann style of training to Lardy then? From what I understand, his use of the e-collar is a bit different. Do you have to recondition the dog from the Hillmann style to the more traditional use?


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?120585-Hillmann-Lardy-TRT2


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