# Willie on Rorem's truck



## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Anyone seen him work? Dave recommended him as a sire for us he likes him so much. He is young, probably hasn't been bred yet, but if he's as good as Dave says, maybe I wouldn't mind being the first!
Lynn


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

A couple of bigtime, titled bitches have been or will be bred to him. I'd be interested in hearing more about him and perhaps seeing some pictures. I'd like to know what it is that has generated such interest in him as a stud by folks in the know.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

I have heard good things from several people about him, I will leave my sources out and if they wish to reply that would be great. 

Willie was bred to fc/afc Topbrass Roxx the boat. I have been told that a well known sister to Roxxy will possibly also be bred to him if/when she comes in. I have been told that Willie is a large, powerful, and good looking stud, I have not seen a picture of him but, would like to. I have heard of multiple pro's and accomplished amatuers that think very highly of Willie. I hope he has a very bright future.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Good looking male, 75-80#, superb marker, great water attitude, and a team player

Very consistent

He is everthing you could possibly want in a dog


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

How is Willie bred?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Sire is FC Duk Dawk of Nickajack - same breeding as Patton, Ford, etc.
Dam - HRCH bitch (FC/AFC Esprit's Playing for Keeps x FC/AFC Candlewood Casey bitch)


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mark Sehon said:


> How is Willie bred?


Uhhhh...I would imagine it works about the same as all the others :wink: 

Oh gawd, I dont believe I said that   

I too would like to know about the pedigree. Some of you make him sound like the second coming (of a certain big black dog):lol: :lol:


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

When Dave Rorem and Danny Farmer agree on a dog, it makes one sit up and listen!!!! Plus, Ted! Thank-you Ted. Looks like this is our breeding for Brook after the National.....thanks for all of your input. Teri, yours is so valuable!
LM


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

http://gooddoginfo.com/gdc/Asp/viewpedigree.asp?DogNo=71159

This is the pedigree of Jeri a littermate to Willy, that I owned. She was a very nice stylish bitch.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

So was the sire a litter mate of Patton, Ford or maybe Cruise? Just curious because if he was it looks like we are starting to see some impressive pups from this combination. All I know is what I read here and RFTN, and its not much.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> So was the sire a litter mate of Patton, Ford or maybe Cruise? Just curious because if he was it looks like we are starting to see some impressive pups from this combination. All I know is what I read here and RFTN, and its not much.


Does it really matter which litter he came from?

The breeding of Lean Mac to Desert Duk was a strong one

Good dog info shows that breeding produced

CFC-CAFC A JAY IV M

BODINES LEAN DUSTING MACHINE F

CHIPPASAW WHITE FOOT CHARLIE MH M

FC DUK DAWG OF NICKAJACK M

FC EAGLE RIDGE FULLBACK M

FC-AFC FORDLAND'S BORED OUT FORD M

FC IZZEE-A-DUK DAWG M

FC PLEASANT RIVER KATE F

FC-AFC RSK'S SMOOTH SAILING M

FC-AFC TEQUILA SUNRISE IX 

Ted


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

No it does not matter. I was just curious. BTW, you left out Patton.


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Then there was that other dog.......give me a minute I'll think of it.......ahh......PATTON!!!! :wink:

I guess it took me too long to think of his name.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I did a search for Patton's Littermates


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## BROWNDOGG (Nov 26, 2005)

Zoe throws some nice puppys, Iv'e got a Weezer/Zoe 15 monthe old that I really like. I believe John and Matt were planning on doing a repeat of the Nick/Zoe litter. I saw Willie run last year and was really impressed.
________
PHIL HILL


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Browndogg, I'm ignorant,  

Who's Zoe?


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Thanks Howard, I am wondering that, too.......
Since you had a littermate, that isn't the dam's name, is it?


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

.....FC Duk Dawg Of Nickajack
FC Two Rivers Lucky Willie
.....Troublesome Highseas Zoe


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

moorelabs said:


> Thanks Howard, I am wondering that, too.......
> Since you had a littermate, that isn't the dam's name, is it?


Whoops, you're right. I had another Zoe pup I washed early. Zoe x Tubby I believe.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

moorelabs said:


> Anyone seen him work? Dave recommended him as a sire for us he likes him so much. He is young, probably hasn't been bred yet, but if he's as good as Dave says, maybe I wouldn't mind being the first!
> Lynn





I have a four month old pup sired by Willie and so far she is doing very well.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

I was at Dave's clinic and got to see Willie. He is VERY nice, and goodlooking. Will run for anyone. He stands out, believe me. I spoke with Dave about Willie and he is REAL HIGH on him. I'll bet Ted has probably seen him a lot.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

moorelabs said:


> Looks like this is our breeding for Brook after the National.....
> LM


You really want to double up on Lean Mac like that?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> moorelabs said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like this is our breeding for Brook after the National.....
> ...


Now don't go mudding the waters on this one Zipmarc... Dave said it was the way to go..... :wink: 

Angie


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Angie B said:


> zipmarc said:
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> > moorelabs said:
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Does a trainer and a breeder reach into the same barrel of skills and knowledge?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> You really want to double up on Lean Mac like that?


Do you know something that you would like to share?


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## jenko157 (Jul 28, 2005)

*Willie Possible repeat breeding.*

Since the topic is started, John Broucek and I co-own Zoe together and she has thrown some really nice pups. She is expected to come into heat anytime. We had planned a repeat breeding with Nick. That litter produced FC Willie, Howard N's Jeri, a couple MH's and that's the pups that got a chance with a good placement. 

Unfortunately, Nick is battling cancer and I believe and breeding to him may not be an option. Would there be any interest in a breeding of Zoe to Nick's litter mate, FC Izzee a Duk Dawg. John B. and I have been talking back and forth and think this is a good option since we can do a natural breeding because Izzee is just a couple hours away. Any input would appreciated. 

I look forward to seeing great things from Willie. He is truly a talented animal with really good looks. I understand that he is really a team player. That would definitely be a trait that I would look for in a sire.

Matt Jenkins


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> zipmarc said:
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> > You really want to double up on Lean Mac like that?
> ...


Why are you answering my question with another question?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> Ted Shih said:
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> > zipmarc said:
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Because it appeared as though you were implying doubling up on Lean Mac was a bad idea.

And if you were doing so, I wanted to know whether you had a basis for that implication.

And so, I repeat my question ... but, will rephrase for you

What reason - if any - do you have for believing doubling up on Lean Mac would not be wise?


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Grandsire on both topsides does not seem too close. According to Gunther, Billy , Delma, and others I respect. I also respect Rorem's opinion as he has spent considerable time with both dogs.
Like Ted says, unless there is something I don't know, I didn't think that was too close a linebreeding, not like brother to half sister anyway!!!
Lynn


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> Does a trainer and a breeder reach into the same barrel of skills and knowledge?


Sometimes yes,,,, sometimes no.... I was hoping you would give more information after my post. I was teasing you a bit...  

Maybe if we could get the females pedigree that would help???

Didn't willie's father just title this year??? I'm trying to recollect a conversation to the fact..... :? 

Another question moorelabs is how marketable would your puppies be out of Willie with such a soft market????

Just food for thought.....

Angie


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

http://www.gooddoginfo.com/gdc/asp/viewpedigree.asp?DogNo=88169

Thanks for valid questions Angie. FT folks are inline for whomever we breed to, but want a good knick of course, so asking for help and studying things. She has qualified for the last three Nationals, turned five in June, and amateur handled.
I do agree the market is flooded, but for FC AFC bitches, the picture is a little different.
Lynn


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I can't imagine you would have problems selling the pups.


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## TRUEBLUE (Aug 27, 2007)

I think it is fantastic your bitch has both her titles, she is certainly a great dog.However, looking at the pedigree of this potential litter, I only see one titled bitch(besides yours) going back three generations. Do you feel this is strong enough, given the amount of money you probably will be asking for these puppies ?


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm not sure what pedigree you're looking at. Your comment is true only for the High Natasha line and ignores the Ace's High III and Fargo lines. Even on the High Natasha line, where your comment is true, KENLINE'S SUPER SCOOTER, while not titled herself, was dam to six FC's -- a pretty good qualification in my mind. Particularly in older pedigrees, it is not unusual for females to have been retired before titling to breed. Note that Lean Mac has no (FC/AFC/CFC) titled females in four generations of his pedigree. That seems to have worked out pretty well.


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Thanks Jeff!!!!!
We think she runs pretty good. (despite the pedigree :wink: )
Lynn


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## TRUEBLUE (Aug 27, 2007)

I did not go to the trouble of researching the bitches and what they have produced, which is a valid point. Only looked at it from a marketing standpoint. I'm sure there are good producing dogs in this potential litter, however, most buyers might not know that and only look at titles. And, no offense , but if your going to use Lean Mac as an example of what can be produced out of no titled bitches in 4 generations, I wonder how often that has happened?


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Most buyers have watched her run and don't care so much about the titles in the pedigree. Lottie is in there a couple of times though, Fargo has a very strong bitch line. And he has been a strong producer. Also, Tasha has two titled littermates.


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## TRUEBLUE (Aug 27, 2007)

That's great ! As I stated before, she is obviously a great dog to have both her titles. Since marketing is not a concern, I have personally seen Willie in training on half a dozen occassions and he is a very nice animal. He is very focused on the task at hand and has a very good work ethic. 
Tractable and intelligent. I wish you the best with this breeding.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

So now I ask this.... You have a awesome female..... Why would you breed her to an "up and coming"???? A test litter???? What are your thoughts on it? Personally I would go for the most bang for the buck!!! A stud that was amateur trained and handled for the majority of the year that was national caliber,,,, A totally pro trained/handled dog is just that. 

Just a thought....

Angie


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Tell me who? I want a natural, driveable to breeding.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> zipmarc said:
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> > Ted Shih said:
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Oh, you are reading far too much into a straight forward question. Knowing Lynn, I just wanted her to think about the pedigree a little more, not just poll opinions.

The COI on the proposed breeding is quite high, especially if you take the generations back further. The gene pool is very narrow. When you double up on the good, you are doubling up on the bad as well. Recessives will be brought out into the light.

If a COI calc is not going to be done, then at least the pedigree need to be better analyzed, and the bloodlines understood.

That's about as much time as I have left over this Labor Day weekend to chitchat.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Angie B said:


> > Does a trainer and a breeder reach into the same barrel of skills and knowledge?
> 
> 
> [.....]
> ...


Angie - Isn't Lynn already doing a marvelous job marketing right here and now in this forum??? 8)


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

***


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Angie - Isn't Lynn already doing a marvelous job marketing right here and now in this forum???


I'm not Angie. She's much better looking than me. But I'd expect Mike and Lynn aren't to worried about having unwanted pup leftover.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

moorelabs said:


> She has qualified for the last three Nationals, turned five in June, and amateur handled.Lynn


Wasn't Brook trained for her Open career by Jerry Patopea, and didn't Bill Sargenti handle her to her first Open win right after she came off Patopea's truck? Maybe I'm getting dogs mixed up? I thought she's still on Billy's truck?

Well, enough of this for me. Labor Day weekend is over and my free time has gone bye bye.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

As I understand it, Brooke was amateur trained thru the derby and well into the all-age. Mike was running her in the all-age stakes as a derby dog.
Mike and Brooke developed a few issues, needed some time apart as you could say and he sought the help of Jerry Patopea. Jerry had her a few months, maybe 4 then Mike took her home and won an Open (that was the trial I judged the Amateur). After that she did go with Sargenti as he lives closer to the Moore's and Billy does have some hands on with her but she is still primarily with Mike and handled by Mike. Is this a little closer to accurate Lynn?
Most of this came from a conversation I had with Mike a while back and I have run against and judged her a few times.
As for Brooke, she is awesome. If I were in the market for a pup, almost regardless (cant say entirely, never know!) of the sire I would want one.


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Kim is pretty much correct. Since she is our first FT dog, Michael needed help. But he always runs her unless he has a big caddie job. He has all her points 42.5 AA except the last .5 Billy finally got a fourth on her a couple of weekends ago. We were extremely happy with that and trust Billy with her training and running now when we are working.
Otherwise Michael loves to train and run her. Train about 50%, run about 90%.
Mimi I get what you are saying, and I need all the breeding help I can get...because the main reason to breed her is that I want a puppy!!!!!
Thanks you guys for all your help.
LM


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Mimi, or somebody, please tell me......what is COI??????


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## goldeneye (Apr 7, 2004)

Coefficient of Inbreeding.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html


a pretty good article that sums up in layman's terms.....


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Someone may have already posted this info, but, WOW, ALL but 2 bitches in 4 generations on Brook's side have been the dam of at least 1 Field Trial titled dog. HOLY MOLY, a double titled bitch with a proven producing bitchline!!! A bitch that is titled is nice, but one that has a bitchline that has consistently produced titled babies. That's nice.

If I read gooddoginfo right, Willie's bitchline has all but 3 bitches in 4 generations throwing titled pups. Good looking breeding to me.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

moorelabs said:


> Tell me who? I want a natural, driveable to breeding.


And the drive to TX or MN is just a hop, skip and a jump?? I must be missing something???? :? 

Angie


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

moorelabs said:


> Grandsire on both topsides does not seem too close. ..... Lynn


Both grandsires are sired by Lean Mac. Grandsires are half brothers. Worse, look at the motherline. Without getting technical, just count how many times Cody (Trumarc's Zip Code) shows up in 5 generation, and you don't need to understand COI. And if you go back 10 generations, you'd see how tight your genepool really is.

By the way it was Wright that created the formula to calculate the inbreeding ratio back in 1922, he was the "father". (Someone had posted a shetland sheepdog link about COIs with no author or qualifications identified and the article wasn't all that accurate.)

I may be partial to Zip Code (he was from the only lab litter I've ever raised - my breeding experience is from registered cattle, Arabian horses, working German Shepherds and Abyssinian show cats) - but it makes me very uneasy to see him in too many pedigrees any more. In fact, I've been watching how working retriever folks go about breeding, and it scares the daylight out of me.

Well, Dow Lewis Motors took my truck apart and won't give it back so I cannot go out to train and will be stuck here in front of the computer for a while. :roll:


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

zipmarc said:


> moorelabs said:
> 
> 
> > Grandsire on both topsides does not seem too close. ..... Lynn
> ...


If you think that's tight, what do you make of those 1/2 brother and sister breedings like FC-AFC Volwood's Peaches and Cream, FC-AFC Mizpah Miss and, on a different line, CNFC-CAFC-FC-AFC Chena River No Surprise? Sam Milton has a dog bred even tighter than those that had 14 derby points in limited starts. Super Chief was a 1st cousin linebreeding. 

Nearly EVERYONE in all other canine performance related games practices linebreeding as a regular part of their breeding program. Retriever people seem to be stuck in the stone ages, though. I would NOT be hesitant to linebreed on Lean Mac. It's been done several times and successfully.


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## yukonriverriley (Aug 15, 2007)

It seems that linebreeding can quickly become a risky game. Look at the Thoroughbred racing industry if you want a proven example. Horses are breaking down at frequent rates, rarely race past 3 years old and the poor broken down ones have cast a pall on the whole industry, ending up in slaughter houses if they survive the track. While it hasn't been scientifically proven (I don't believe) that linebreeding/inbreeding is the cause of this, it seems fairly obvious that it's a big part of it. Look at the genetic disorders in labs these days, also likely a factor of too much inbreeding. In general animals with a narrow genetic pool are going to be more prone to genetic disorders and general weakness, as well as typically not having as long a life span. Now these are general terms, but it's something to keep in mind when looking at breedings. I personally have a puppy now who is fairly inbred to Rippin Blue Thunder (he's in her 5-gen pedigree 3 or 4 times) and if I breed her I will be very sure that there is no Rippin Blue THunder in the 5-gen pedigree of whatever dog I breed her to. Breeding isn't just about breeding two dogs that are very similar, but also finding a nick that enhances your bitch's postiive characteristics while also strengthening her weak points. For instance my pup is on the small side, a little soft and lacks a little drive (partly due to my novice training), so if I bred her it wouldn't be to find a dog whose pedigree perfectly compliments her, but a dog who is known for throwing big, hard charging, super driven pups. Just a retriever novice's (but longtime Thoroughbred enthusiast's) opinion.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> I would NOT be hesitant to linebreed on Lean Mac. It's been done several times and successfully.


Lets face it, look at old ads, where line/inbreeding breeding must have been a disaster, no litters eventuated on your OFA site -one point of reference. Test matings if you will, which do have their place, but are unfortunately not revealed, except to those in the know. 

Bring on further genetic tests!!!!!!!!!

I have an inbred Lean Mac, very healthy, checked from every angle, of the curent available tests. Awesome dog, with endless working ability. 

I also have a half brother/sister youngster. Bit fruity, was awesome marker.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Lynn,

Talk with Dave about "Ladd" owned by Paul & Jenn Panichi

Open win (Amat handled) and qualified for 07 Natl. Amat. with another Amat win.

VERY nice dog that is not in training with Dave fulltime.

Yellow factored needs 1 pt for AFC

John
________
GM Premium V engine history


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## teddyballgame (Mar 19, 2007)

Have a four month old out of Willie and FC/AFC Topbrass Roxx the Boat. Nice puppy. Willie is a nice dog a would be a great sire.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

teddyballgame wrote:



> Willie is a nice dog a would be a great sire.


That remains to be seen. He's still unproven as a sire....

Angie


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2007)

Angie B said:


> teddyballgame wrote:
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Ok, if you owned Brook who would you breed her to? Just curious


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

crimsonking said:


> Angie B said:
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> > teddyballgame wrote:
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Patton!!! I've raised a number of his puppies on titled females. Titled meaning FC/AFC. I've seen his puppies in the derby and the qual. They're now moving to the AA stakes. They are truley amazing. I don't know about Pattons brothers, I've never personally worked with their offspring. I'm just advocating a proven stud whose puppies I've worked with. I'm now watching them develope and I'm very impressed.

Personally,,, since you asked...  I would go with the best proven sire out there that's nationally competitive with their amateur owner/handler. I don't care if I had to strap her to my back and hike to Bangladesh. If that's where the best was,,,, that's where she would go.

The titled, nationally competitive females are bred once, maybe twice during their lifetime. Why possibly waste the breeding on a unkown sire?

IMHO

Angie


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## teddyballgame (Mar 19, 2007)

That remains to be seen. He's still unproven as a sire....

Angie[/quote]

Great means different things to different people. A sire does not have to throw FC/AFC's to be proven or great. If he passes on traits and abilities you like and complements your bitch...then "great."

Some of what we call great sires/bitchs in some minds are not. What of the dog that throws FC/AFC's yet pollutes the breed with genetic problems?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Can someone please start a thread, on labradors who have been tested under the EIC research scheme, who are clear/normal. I am a little surprised not to find one. Why????


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> Great means different things to different people. A sire does not have to throw FC/AFC's to be proven or great. If he passes on traits and abilities you like and complements your bitch...then "great."


I don't believe Patton has thrown a FC/AFC yet but it won't be long,,, the majority are still young. How would you know a sire passed on traits that complimented your bitch if you haven't bred them and he has no track record at all as far as his get??? I don't care if it's Willie or Over the hill Joe.... :roll: 



> Some of what we call great sires/bitchs in some minds are not. What of the dog that throws FC/AFC's yet pollutes the breed with genetic problems?


Is Willie perfect??? Is the female he was bred to, Roxx the Boat perfect???We know she's not... Name me one sire that was bred extensively that was perfect and didn't pass a congenital flaw??? Please..... :roll: 

I just know what I've seen personally as far as Patton's get and that's who I would breed to... Is he perfect?? Hell No!!! But neither is any female.


Angie


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Are any males sperm totally perfect????
> 
> Angie



yep :wink:


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Angie B said:
> 
> 
> > Are any males sperm totally perfect????
> ...


The joke here is that your comment is right next to this photo that you selected for your avatar:









:lol: :lol:


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Angie B said:
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> 
> > Are any males sperm totally perfect????
> ...


Okay,,,, that did sound kinda stupid....  I changed it....  

Angie


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> Patrick Johndrow said:
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> > Angie B said:
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What are you talking about...that is a GREAT photo


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

I think it's a fine picture...


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2007)

How about Gates as an option?????????? Long way from CA though


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

crimsonking said:


> How about Gates as an option?????????? Long way from CA though


Or Ranger in Illinois....

Or maybe a stud that's deceased? On a bitch like that it would be worth the expense.

Thinking out loud....

Angie


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

*Re: Willie on Rorem's Truck*



Angie B said:


> crimsonking said:
> 
> 
> > How about Gates as an option?????????? Long way from CA though
> ...


Valtor's O.C. Pete - then I would want a puppy!


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Angie, I think I would go the route you are taking with this but switch to "Ford". Obviously the same pedigree as "Patton" but by far a much more proven sire.

Wouldn't you agree?

By the way, Lil & Nitro both looked great this weekend. I was very surprised that Lil wasn't called back to the water marks.

Wade


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Wade said:


> Angie, I think I would go the route you are taking with this but switch to "Ford". Obviously the same pedigree as "Patton" but by far a much more proven sire.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> ...


If Moorelabs female we're mine. Only the BEST would be good enough.. No darkhorses,,, no unprovens,, no close and convient,,,,, Just THE BEST!!!

Ford is wonderful too,,, I just don't have any personal experience with his get.

FWIW

Angie


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Well then, You for sure would want to choose Ford!!!!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Wade said:


> Well then, You for sure would want to choose Ford!!!!


Actually, then, she'd want to choose Lean Mac.

But that would be a tight line breeding of grandaughter to grandfather. Could be some wonderful puppies there. Or not.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Wade said:
> 
> 
> > Well then, You for sure would want to choose Ford!!!!
> ...


I don't know about that one... I would have to confer with those that *REALLY*, know...

Angie


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> If Moorelabs female we're mine. Only the BEST would be good enough.. No darkhorses,,, no unprovens,, no close and convient,,,,, Just THE BEST!!!


Just by nose counting AKC field trial titled progeny Lean Mac is the best and most proven. 

Whether or not Lean Mac would be the best sire for his grandaughter Brook...... 

........Nobody knows.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

I think Lean Mac was bred a couple more times than Patton :twisted: Patton does seem to be producing some nice young dogs.

MB


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