# The Wildrose Way



## EnglishYellowLab (Feb 9, 2017)

Picking up my first puppy in March and am trying to decide on a program. 

Does anyone have any experience training a dog "The Wildrose Way" from start to finish?

I have the book right now and i am trying to decide on a DVD program to assist.

The Wildrose DVD is only $35, which seems inexpensive based on the cost of these other programs, so I am worried it will be a waste of time and money.

Thoughts and Advice would be appreciated!


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Here we go. Get your popcorn. Doubt you find many people on here with a good word for Wildrose. There are much better programs out there.


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

I would do the Hillmann puppy DVD, then switch to Lardy TRT, Total Marking, and E Collar conditioning. That can literally take you from puppy, to a limitless dog...and the Lardy stuff comes with supporting literature. I'd scrap the Wildrose book.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

For the price of 4 bags of dog food you can get Jackie Merten's Sound Beginnings and TRT2.

or 

For the price of three bags you can get Hillmann's Training a Retriever Puppy and get TRT2 later


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## Cayuga Dew (Nov 30, 2014)

English Yellow Lab
What are your goals for your pup?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> For the price of 4 bags of dog food you can get Jackie Merten's Sound Beginnings and TRT2.
> 
> or
> 
> For the price of three bags you can get Hillmann's Training a Retriever Puppy and get TRT2 later


 Yeah, but breaking intel is that a Mildtoes DVD will be given away by Nordstrom's with each purchase of close-out Ivanka Trump clothing. "Sean Spicer" will even preview the DVD on SNL this weekend to call attention to the Mildtoes "program's" validity.


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## EnglishYellowLab (Feb 9, 2017)

Cayuga Dew said:


> English Yellow Lab
> What are your goals for your pup?


 Goals for my first shot at training are an obedient dog with house manners, and a steady hunting companion for the 25-30 days of hunting ill do a year. 

It seems as though tossing out the WRW book and never turning back is the overwhelming opinion so far. It was a little odd to me that the force fetch is accomplished by massaging the puppy rather than the ear pinch...


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

So I would say that my Lab fits the mold of what you are looking for (we also run HT). He sleeps when he's not training or hunting, is great around the house, and loves to work. I think the Hillmann puppy DVD is a great place to start. It really forms the bond between handler and pup, and sets you up for success in the long run, as long as you are firm, fair and consistent.

What part of the dog do you massage by the way? This is a bit, well, odd.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Just because your pup is 'english' - does not mean he/she cannot be trained by American methods. The fellow in my avatar was and he is of English parentage. I like Hillmann a lot and think his method is pretty much fool proof. (meaning, unless you are really trying to screw things up, you will be able to take a dog of any 'softness' through his methods).

Like others here, not a fan of the Wildrose Way. Though I am sure for some people it works perfectly for their needs and desires.


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## EnglishYellowLab (Feb 9, 2017)

Windjammer said:


> So I would say that my Lab fits the mold of what you are looking for (we also run HT). He sleeps when he's not training or hunting, is great around the house, and loves to work. I think the Hillmann puppy DVD is a great place to start. It really forms the bond between handler and pup, and sets you up for success in the long run, as long as you are firm, fair and consistent.
> 
> What part of the dog do you massage by the way? This is a bit, well, odd.


Thanks for the advice, i will look into the Hillman DVDs. 

haha - They direct you to massage the paws and the pressure points on the head while doing the "hold" exercise. I guess the theory is that the dog will remember that holding lead to the good feeling of the massage, which is the opposite idea of pressure off the pinch when holding...


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## cowdoc87 (Dec 18, 2014)

Another vote for Hillman puppy stuff. He's got a lot on utube that would give you a taste of his methodology, and its free!


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Can I ask if any of the negative posters have used WRW. I havnt


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I have never heard of Wildrose, so have no opinion either way on that, however, I have had very good results using Jackie Mertens Sound Beginings followed by a Lardy TRT program. My dogs sleep in the house, one on the bed the other on the floor, hunt hard each fall and are competitive in field trials the rest of the year.


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## Barry Ireland (Feb 18, 2005)

Had a bad experience when Wildrose was still in Grand Junction, but Mr. Atkinson said not to take it to my grave. That being said I have Lardy and Hillman material and like it a lot. I would use Hillman and transition later to TRT. I have e-mailed Bill Hillman a couple of times with questions and they have always been more than helpful and quick to reply.


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## cowdoc87 (Dec 18, 2014)

..a new way ...a better way ...the Wildrose Way Join Mike, Drake and 25 other gun dogs ages 3.5 months to 5 years, as they present a low-force no electric collar, natural program designed for upland and waterfowl hunting retrievers. The Gentleman's Gundog™ ... Order Here!(from his website http://www.uklabs.com/ )


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I have/had(?) the Wildrose DVD. I'd certainly not characterize it as an A to Z program, but it offered some training tactics we've found useful. And while I got pretty sick of hearing Stewart say "because that's the Wildrose way," he did a better job of keeping me awake than most of the video oft recommended on this site.

That said, if you're going to depend heavily on help from US mainstream trainers, you'll find that goes a whole lot smoother if you're doing things their way.


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## EnglishYellowLab (Feb 9, 2017)

Rick Hall said:


> I have/had(?) the Wildrose DVD. I'd certainly not characterize it as an A to Z program, but it offered some training tactics we've found useful. And while I got pretty sick of hearing Stewart say "because that's the Wildrose way," he did a better job of keeping me awake than most of the video oft recommended on this site.
> 
> That said, if you're going to depend heavily on help from US mainstream trainers, you'll find that goes a whole lot smoother if you're doing things their way.


Ill buy it off of you if you're willing to let it go - its not expensive new but a buck saved is a buck towards Hillmann's


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Barry Ireland said:


> Had a bad experience when Wildrose was still in Grand Junction, but Mr. Atkinson said not to take it to my grave. That being said I have Lardy and Hillman material and like it a lot. I would use Hillman and transition later to TRT. I have e-mailed Bill Hillman a couple of times with questions and they have always been more than helpful and quick to reply.


Hi Barry, Man you have gotten my attention.

I've had a lot of correspondence on this site over the years. 

I don't remember this part at all!

Feel free to PM me and fill me in. 

I hope I'm a "friend".


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

You know that is kinda funny. If I did that, my Lab would say "seriously stop it, that's annoying!".


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

"You know that is kinda funny. If I did that, my Lab say "seriously stop it, that's annoying"
I'm sure every ones way is right for them if it works and if it works for others . It get's on here most times that if some don't like some ones way then others jump on a band wagon . Reminds me often in the School Yard when if you dared support Dunfermline when the masses supported Rangers or Celtic . (some may have to google) .But I'm sure Blimp and Cracker'd are well versed. 
Now and again it would be nice to see 'Your way' !! It may well have all the elements of 'Some ones way' but hey...Can y'all not train a dog now on your own ?...way.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Windjammer said:


> It is also worth noting that Mike Stewart was once a huge fan of the e-collar, the ear pinch, ect. He even wrote a book on their effective uses.


Uh-uh - you got one MildToes hornswoggler confused with another.

MG


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

EnglishYellowLab said:


> Ill buy it off of you if you're willing to let it go - its not expensive new but a buck saved is a buck towards Hillmann's


Naw, you can't buy it, but PM me a mailing address and I'll send it to you with the understanding that you'll eventually pass it along, as well.


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## KeystoneDekeChesapeake (Dec 2, 2016)

Rick- I was just about to offer the same.

EnglishYL- Offer stands as Rick stated. What your looking for is just what I was looking for. 95% pet companion who goes everywhere with me and 5% hunts. Let's be honest. If your dog is living in your house with you he spends a lot more time as a buddy than a go get 'em outfitters kenneled retriever. 

That being said, I've personally seen an english trained The Wildrose Way. No collar, no force, and the best obedient dog I've ever seen. His speed lacks but damn does he listen and do his job as conservationist in the field!! It can work for some. "A true gentlemans gundog lays fireside". It was the third book I read after Millners 'Back to Basics" and another titled a British way to train your American retriever. Stewart teaches you how to assist your dog to be a well rounded individual. Read it and then move to a program if you want. But I suggest reading it.

All that being said, you can gleen information from every trainer; pro, am, and we all know the guy who just has no idea. But don't discredit knowing what you DON'T want.

Enjoy the journey!

-Ben


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## EnglishYellowLab (Feb 9, 2017)

KeystoneDekeChesapeake said:


> Rick- I was just about to offer the same.
> 
> EnglishYL- Offer stands as Rick stated. What your looking for is just what I was looking for. 95% pet companion who goes everywhere with me and 5% hunts. Let's be honest. If your dog is living in your house with you he spends a lot more time as a buddy than a go get 'em outfitters kenneled retriever.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the advice Ben! I am excited to start my journey with this pup.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

EnglishYellowLab said:


> Thanks for the advice, i will look into the Hillman DVDs.
> 
> haha - They direct you to massage the paws and the pressure points on the head while doing the "hold" exercise. I guess the theory is that the dog will remember that holding lead to the good feeling of the massage, which is the opposite idea of pressure off the pinch when holding...


Yes this absolutely makes sense and works in the HOLD process...slight ear pressure to regain HOLD and then pleasure....Don't get carried away by all these so called experts and DVD watchers...Dog training is not rocket science w an e collar in your hip pocket....Common sense, a relaxed and methodical attitude, no hurry and an objective to every discipline...REPETITION IS THE MOTHER OF RETENTION... I have not seen too many dogs from their kennels which I would like or pay the price, but the book is OK....like all media...take what makes sense, don't get bogged down into one program as all dogs are individuals and one thing may not work on every dog.


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## cripes (Aug 14, 2011)

You can rent all these training dvds from Bow Wow flicks. See which ones you like.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

EYL,

The Wildrose dvd is IMO light on the basic obedience aspect; you'd be well advised to study this part of the profile prior to getting on with the retriever training. Outside of that if you followed the advice with intelligence and application you should wind up with a useful hunting dog. 

Eug


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## Smooth Boar (Aug 5, 2014)

I bought the Wildrose Way DVD and planned to use it training by British lab pup. My dog will be 3 years old come May and has 2 duck seasons under his belt. And I did not train him using the Wildrose Way. I ditched that idea pretty fast after watching the DVD. Some good stuff. But if you are looking for a program that takes you from A to Z, not sure it is the one. Seemed sporadic in topics and not a clear progression. That is just my opinion. I ended up using Chris Akins Duck Dog Basics program. That and I sent my dog to a trainer for a couple of months to make sure the force fetch was done right. Being my first dog to train I didn't have much confidence in my ability but I think I could now. I personally wouldn't hesitate to use the DDB program again. But I've watched a fair amount of Hillman's videos on Youtube and I wouldn't hesitate to go the Hillman/Lardy route as many suggest either.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

While I have not trained using his methodology or watched his video, I have seen dogs that were trained (and bred) by his company and also dogs who were trained by people attempting to use his materials and I cannot tell you how unimpressed I've been. I have seen one really nice dog that he bred, but it wasn't trained with his methodology. In my experience his followers think everything is going great until they show up at a club training session or a hunt test and their dog can't (or won't) do the work. They tend to show up bragging and leave confused (and still unwilling to listen to reason). Generally nice folks who have just swallowed the marketing hook too fully to turn back...

I've not used Hillman because I haven't had a puppy in a long time but many, many respected dog trainers recommend it. I've used Sound Beginnings with Jackie Mertens, the Lardy DVD's and article compilations and the Smartworks books. That route will not fail you. I have even used the old Wolters' books and while I don't recommend them at all (because there is so much better material available), I would use that before I would turn to the huckster at "mildtoes."


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

Someone recently posted about a QAA dog that didn't handle hunting in a flooded rice field well. I don't think that it's part of the QAA training program. I recall the dog got better with more experience and will become out to be a great hunting dog. 

People standing in a field in white coats and dogs looking for birds in front of gunners are not part of the WRW program. The guy states in his book that he does not train dogs to meet competition criteria. If you want to be successful in field competitions or hunt tests (like most folks on this forum), then you need to choose a program that will help you meet those goals. Train with the end in mind. WRW will not get you to a MH/FTCH.


I think the question is more do you want to use an ecollar program or not. With WRW no ecollar is used unless it's necessary and no FF. 

According to WRW "the ecollar is used as a problem solving tool of absolute last resort and then only one single command is reinforced..blah blah blah! As soon as you begin using the ecollar the process has already begun to get rid of it. It's a temporary step only..blah blah blah..it is preferred to hunt a dog without any type of correction tool or collar, since the collar can become entangled, proving hazardous to the dog." 
This approach appeals to some people. 

In most ecollar based programs the collar is always on the dog, both in training and hunting. And FF is the norm. This approach also appeals to some people.

If your planning on getting a ecollar then choose a program that will take you through it's proper use. A lot of folks seem to like Hillman right now. Good Luck! And have fun with your pup!!!!!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Desiree said:


> People standing in a field in white coats and dogs looking for birds in front of gunners are not part of the WRW program. The guy states in his book that he does not train dogs to meet competition criteria. If you want to be successful in field competitions or hunt tests (like most folks on this forum), then you need to choose a program that will help you meet those goals. Train with the end in mind. WRW will not get you to a MH/FTCH.


I agree with much of what you wrote. However, about the part I've quoted above - my observations of the poor results of the mildtoes way (whether trained by the professionals themselves or the amateur) had nothing to do with white coats and there were no white coats present at the hunt tests and club training sessions at which I made those observations. It was a matter of dogs refusing to pick up retrieving objects. It was a matter of dogs who were not prepared to do the work.

Like most on here, I would not choose to train a dog without an e-collar but I've done it (a nice hunting dog) and it can certainly be done better than I did it. But to choose a system that does not include Force Fetch is folly unless your standards are exceedingly low.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> But to choose a system that does not include Force Fetch is folly unless your standards are exceedingly low.


Damba, my standards must be exceedingly low - but please don't tell my dogs. They've worked tough beats well without knowing they needn't bother.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

I have guided a group of hunters for five or six years, which included Mike Stewart and his dog Deke. The group had eight in it, and probably five or six Wildrose dogs. I can attest that Deke, Rebel and several others were dogs anyone would want to hunt with, as they were steady to shot, market well, and ran blinds like they had been shot out of a cannon. I have the Wildrose Book (not the tape) and I can see that it could get the job done. One of Wildrose's methods is to get he trainers back to Wildrose for training sessions, which I would think help the owners get help on issues and of course to get some inspiration. 

I have not used the Wildrose way to train my dogs because my goal is to run in AA stakes, but if my goal were to have a nice dog that will hunt and be a good citizen, I don't think this program would be out of consideration. Do your homework, then pick a plan or seveal parts of plans. I cannot slam the Wildrose dogs from what I have seen over many hunts, both field and water.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I've tried the Wildrose Way and I've tried Lardy's TRT. Regardless of your goal, TRT is my recommendation. Much more thorough.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Desiree said:


> Someone recently posted about a QAA dog that didn't handle hunting in a flooded rice field well. I don't think that it's part of the QAA training program. I recall the dog got better with more experience and will become out to be a great hunting dog.
> 
> People standing in a field in white coats and dogs looking for birds in front of gunners are not part of the WRW program. The guy states in his book that he does not train dogs to meet competition criteria. If you want to be successful in field competitions or hunt tests (like most folks on this forum), then you need to choose a program that will help you meet those goals. Train with the end in mind. WRW will not get you to a MH/FTCH.
> 
> ...


 When it comes to this philosophical argument over whether or not to use an e-collar or any other tool in dog training I've come to the conclusion over many many dogs that there's what works, and what people sell to those who have emotional issues with what works. With a retriever at the distances we expect, even for a hunting dog, there is absolutely no substitute for the tool, period end of story. That's simply the truth and there's no getting around it. The truth doesn't care if you like it or not and it won't change to suit your fancy. All that said I GUARANTEE there's something in the WRW that an experienced trainer can put to use. The issue is - do you want to pay for the DVD and watch the whole thing for the one idea or concept that may be of use to you when you have more than enough information at your fingertips with Lardy, Graham, Hillman and Mertens?


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

HuntinDawg said:


> I agree with much of what you wrote. However, about the part I've quoted above - my observations of the poor results of the mildtoes way (whether trained by the professionals themselves or the amateur) had nothing to do with white coats and there were no white coats present at the hunt tests and club training sessions at which I made those observations. It was a matter of dogs refusing to pick up retrieving objects. It was a matter of dogs who were not prepared to do the work.
> 
> Like most on here, I would not choose to train a dog without an e-collar but I've done it (a nice hunting dog) and it can certainly be done better than I did it. But to choose a system that does not include Force Fetch is folly unless your standards are exceedingly low.




The comment about white coats referenced the program I'm currently using.


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

Once again, Darrin Greene for president!

And something else to remember is that unless you are Lardy, Farmer, Burns and so on, it's extremely difficult to train your dog to that same standard (think Lottie as an example) for the program that individual developed. The Wildrose dogs that were named were probably trained by Stewart, which will produce a better product than an ametuer. Moreover, since the majority of clubs and groups use an e collar based program, finding support amongst peers and local mentors will be rough.


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## Roffey (May 28, 2014)

I'll send you a free wildrose training a gundog book you pay shipping.


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## EnglishYellowLab (Feb 9, 2017)

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I will look into all of the suggestions and make a decision that I think will work best for me.

EYL


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## lorneparker1 (Mar 22, 2015)

I saw on Facebook one time that Evan Graham was especially a big fan of Wild Rose :shock:


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*HuntinDawg* posted


> But to choose a system that does not include Force Fetch is folly unless your standards are exceedingly low.


Oh dear, all these years wasted. 

Seventeen of my own dogs I thought were kind of all right, some of which did a bit in Trials were actually exceedingly useless. So too the dogs in the training group who represented Wales in International competition. If only we had known.

Eug


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

That tangent made me smile and put me in mind of Mark Twain's observation that: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure, that just ain't so."


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *HuntinDawg* postedOh dear, all these years wasted.
> 
> Seventeen of my own dogs I thought were kind of all right, some of which did a bit in Trials were actually exceedingly useless. So too the dogs in the training group who represented Wales in International competition. If only we had known.
> 
> Eug


Well stated Eugene.👍
Cheers,
Irishwhistler☘


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *HuntinDawg* postedOh dear, all these years wasted.
> 
> Seventeen of my own dogs I thought were kind of all right, some of which did a bit in Trials were actually exceedingly useless. So too the dogs in the training group who represented Wales in International competition. If only we had known.
> 
> Eug


One man who owns 1-6 dogs in his life still has the best chance with reinforced fetch in his program, pretty simple. 

Most of the people here asking questions aren't getting top selections from great breeding. They aren't going to wash a dog out except to put it onto the couch and there is a limit to what the wife will tolerate. 

Not many rules in dog training except - that there aren't many rules. 

Asserting reinforced retrieve isn't necessary is just as egregious as asserting that it is essential. 

Little applies across the board.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Little applies across the board.


Or across the pond - where "little" if any is the number of retrieves from water a gundog may make over its lifetime and blind retrieves on land (there are none/nada/zilch on water) are "run" at a "little" less than the speed of sound and with "little" precise handling.

Or down the bayou, where "little" if any across the board (rtf) other than Rick work as a waterfowling guide whose dogs get hundreds of opportunities to "train" on making retrieves without the benefits of force fetch.

Don't think those being upbraided for their generalizations meant to impugn those who don't use force fetch, they just aren't considering other competitive venues or extenuating (but favorable!) circumstances that others have at their disposal, right, Rick? 

Also seem to recall Whistler here found out the hard way the whys and wherefores of force fetch for mid-level hunt tests - and with a British Lab to boot. So his enlightenment on the topic might be ever so helpful.

MG


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## Hilandjake (Apr 25, 2016)

Hold the butter on my popcorn but I would like a large Coke


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Rick Hall said:


> Damba, my standards must be exceedingly low - but please don't tell my dogs. They've worked tough beats well without knowing they needn't bother.





Colonel Blimp said:


> *HuntinDawg* postedOh dear, all these years wasted.
> 
> Seventeen of my own dogs I thought were kind of all right, some of which did a bit in Trials were actually exceedingly useless. So too the dogs in the training group who represented Wales in International competition. If only we had known.
> 
> Eug


OK, folks. My comment that a training program that doesn't include force fetch is "folly" has stirred some people up. Now I didn't qualify my statement but remember we are talking to a newbie here. I personally have seen WAY too many people literally begging their dog to return to heel with a bird or deliver to hand because they had no tool in their toolbox to make it happen (probably out of the supposed kindness of their hearts they had declined everyone's advice to FF).

With my first retriever, I didn't know about FF so he was not FF through his first season or two. I had no issues with him dropping birds or failing to deliver to hand so I would have been one of those who thought it not necessary...but when starting off with a pup, how does one know that this particular dog will not "need" it? OK, so same dog at a couple of years of age goes directly from a hunt in which he was manhandling large resident Canada Geese to a club training session with pigeons. I had hunted doves with him and his mouth was very gentle. It is my opinion that the fast switch from Canada Geese to pigeons probably brought this on but he flattened a couple of pigeons at the club training session. Nobody could/would tell me what to do. I tried all of the wives tales about retrieving stiff bristle brushes and that sort of thing. Nothing worked. I had no mentor to turn to and very little info was available at the time. This was probably 1996 and I had never heard of the RTF. I wrote to James Spencer who had an advice column in Gun Dog or Wild Fowl or some such magazine. He said that FF was the answer and told me what chapter of one of his books covered the subject (Training Retrievers for the Marshes and Meadows). I bought it. I FF'd the dog. Problem solved.

Now, if the hard mouth issue had not reared it's head would I have ever FF'd the dog? I don't know. Would his delivery have continued to be flawless or would I have at some point found myself among the ranks of those begging his dog to return with the bird? This is something I saw a guy do in a FINISHED test with his WR bred and trained dog (trained by the WR pros themselves mind you) BTW. I don't know whether there would have come a time when he refused to return the bird or dropped it and refused to pick it back up or not. I do know that I will NEVER be among those who have to beg their dog to return with a bird or beg him/her to pick it back up BECAUSE I force fetch my dogs and BECAUSE they are collar conditioned to "here".

I did not mean to offend. I am convinced that for the newbie trainer, recommending a program with FF (and e-collar) is the BEST advice. If an experienced trainer wants to decide to try the road less traveled then he/she may have the knowledge to pull it off. However, for the guy with one dog who doesn't want to wash it out a modern, Carr-based program which uses FF and e-collar gives by far the best % chance of "success" (whatever that is) IMO. I don't think many here would dispute that although the few who do might be very vocal about it.

BTW, that same dog I was talking about was also an "amish" dog. I had an e-collar, didn't know it's proper use and all I did was confuse him with it. By the time I began to learn the proper use (collar conditioning, etc.) I made the decision that for THAT dog, given his bad experience (which was my fault), it was better to move forward as best as I was able without the e-collar and he did earn his SH and HR but he could have been so much better... My subsequent dogs have been trained with the e-collar and it is so much easier (timing, etc.) and allows you to advance the training so much faster that I would never consider training a retriever without the e-collar unless/until it becomes illegal to do so.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

HuntinDawg said:


> OK, folks. My comment that a training program that doesn't include force fetch is "folly" has stirred some people up. Now I didn't qualify my statement but remember we are talking to a newbie here. I personally have seen WAY too many people literally begging their dog to return to heel with a bird or deliver to hand because they had no tool in their toolbox to make it happen (probably out of the supposed kindness of their hearts they had declined everyone's advice to FF).


I understand all that you are saying - in reference to FF and why you and many others think it is an absolute necessity for a dog to be able to compete at the higher levels of tests and trials - and why those who've trained dogs to high levels without FF come forward and say hey, wait a minute, it ain't so... because... it ain't. 

Owners who consistently have to cajole their dogs to pick up a bird or have it delivered to hand, or whose dog has mouth issues are simply not training their dog. They might think they are and they might hope they are, but they aren't. They just don't have the knowledge to be able to do so, or are lazy, or don't understand some of the basic tenants surrounding dog training......It is possible to train a dog to pick up, hold, and deliver a bird without FF. But these folks' dogs are taking them for a ride, pure and simple.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Tobias said:


> I understand all that you are saying - in reference to FF and why you and many others think it is an absolute necessity for a dog to be able to compete at the higher levels of tests and trials - and why those who've trained dogs to high levels without FF come forward and say hey, wait a minute, it ain't so... because... it ain't.
> 
> Owners who consistently have to cajole their dogs to pick up a bird or have it delivered to hand, or whose dog has mouth issues are simply not training their dog. They might think they are and they might hope they are, but they aren't. They just don't have the knowledge to be able to do so, or are lazy, or don't understand some of the basic tenants surrounding dog training......It is possible to train a dog to pick up, hold, and deliver a bird without FF. But these folks' dogs are taking them for a ride, pure and simple.


What about the guy whose dog was bred, sold and trained by the "pros" at WR who exited the water in a FINISHED hunt test, dropped the bird and refused to pick it back up regardless of his owner's begging and grovelling, literally on his hands and knees? This dog was professionally trained by the purveyor of the materials in tho OP's question. I'm sorry if I've helped this thread go from discussing what is ADVISABLE and proven to work (especially for a newbie) and what may be possible with some dogs with some experienced trainers sometimes.

EDIT: The last time I saw the "groveler" he was at a pheasant shoot telling everyone how superior his English bred lab is to all of the American bred labs who were there. The whole concept of English bred vs. American bred is very odd to me since the bloodlines were developed in Britain and most of the British labs available for sale here are bred her in America...at what point do British bloodlines on this side of the pond become American bloodlines - remembering that they all came from Britain at some point???


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

HuntinDawg said:


> What about the guy whose dog was bred, sold and trained by the "pros" at WR who exited the water in a FINISHED hunt test, dropped the bird and refused to pick it back up regardless of his owner's begging and grovelling, literally on his hands and knees? This dog was professionally trained by the purveyor of the materials in tho OP's question. I'm sorry if I've helped this thread go from discussing what is ADVISABLE and proven to work (especially for a newbie) and what may be possible with some dogs with some experienced trainers sometimes.
> 
> EDIT: The last time I saw the "groveler" he was at a pheasant shoot telling everyone how superior his English bred lab is to all of the American bred labs who were there. The whole concept of English bred vs. American bred is very odd to me since the bloodlines were developed in Britain and most of the British labs available for sale here are bred her in America...at what point do British bloodlines on this side of the pond become American bloodlines - remembering that they all came from Britain at some point???


That type of occurrence has nothing to do with lack of ff, but lack of training - and possibly a dog that can count - last bird, screw you. Seen it with dogs that stick on the last bird. Owner begging, cajoling, and cursing at the dog (quietly) to give up the bird. Not happening.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Tobias said:


> That type of occurrence has nothing to do with lack of ff, but lack of training - and possibly a dog that can count - last bird, screw you. Seen it with dogs that stick on the last bird. Owner begging, cajoling, and cursing at the dog (quietly) to give up the bird. Not happening.


I think it does have to do with lack of FF, which IS a lack of training in this example, but regardless this dog was bred and professionally trained in this wonderful utopian WAY that the OP was inquiring about. Shouldn't dogs bred and trained by the promoter of this WAY deliver a freaking duck to hand? I have not seen a dog who has been FF'd and CC'd do this. I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't seen it. However, I have seen this scene many times involving people who didn't think their dog needed FF. I believe this is the only time I have seen it with a professionally trained dog and (not a young pup mind you) what do you know, the trainers in question were trainers of the "WAY."


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

crackerd said:


> Or across the pond - where "little" if any is the number of retrieves from water a gundog may make over its lifetime and blind retrieves on land (there are none/nada/zilch on water) are "run" at a "little" less than the speed of sound and with "little" precise handling.
> 
> Or down the bayou, where "little" if any across the board (rtf) other than Rick work as a waterfowling guide whose dogs get hundreds of opportunities to "train" on making retrieves without the benefits of force fetch.
> 
> ...


 Good way to look at things...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

HuntinDawg said:


> I think it does have to do with lack of FF, which IS a lack of training in this example, but regardless this dog was bred and professionally trained in this wonderful utopian WAY that the OP was inquiring about. Shouldn't dogs bred and trained by the promoter of this WAY deliver a freaking duck to hand? I have not seen a dog who has been FF'd and CC'd do this. I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't seen it. However, I have seen this scene many times involving people who didn't think their dog needed FF. I believe this is the only time I have seen it with a professionally trained dog and (not a young pup mind you) what do you know, the trainers in question were trainers of the "WAY."


Not wanting to FF and wanting to train the "way" may have more to do with the trainer's emotions than the dog's well being/performance.

When humans (knowingly or unknowingly) put their own emotions ahead of the dog's needs - yea bad stuff tends to happen.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Or down the bayou, where "little" if any across the board (rtf) other than Rick work as a waterfowling guide whose dogs get hundreds of opportunities to "train" on making retrieves without the benefits of force fetch.
> 
> Don't think those being upbraided for their generalizations meant to impugn those who don't use force fetch, they just aren't considering other competitive venues or extenuating (but favorable!) circumstances that others have at their disposal, right, Rick?


A 1,000+ often downright arduous working retrieves a season, particularly for folks who paid to shoot birds, not watch dog training, strike me as more apt to undo training than enhance it, but what do I know? 

I'm a guy who was so green he joined one of the first few HRC chapters before he even had a retriever to learn about they and their training. I went to the training days, attended the Pro seminars and worked the tests before buying that first bona fide "retriever". Met a lot of flat wonderful folks, and Lord knows it tickles me that some of them and their organization are still there to greet me warmly when I've shown up to test new youngsters over the ensuing thirty years. But their training methods struck me as unnecessarily harsh and regimented, and knowing from my experience with pointing dogs that had served double duty as my waterfowl dogs that it just didn't have to be that tough, I made do pretty nicely, from a hunting standpoint, with a first Chesapeake trained as I would bring on any dog of mine with the addition of the handling pointers found in poor, much maligned Richard Wolters' Game Dog. 

Pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find another hunter as sensitive to that dog's shortcomings as I was, and know long ago camp guests who gunned over him still remember him kindly - and sometimes remember me by Bud's good deeds. But I wanted to do better and studied some of most everything retriever related. Even had the Lardy articles that were to become the first volume (and part of the second) of Training With Mike Lardy on file well before they were compiled for sale as such. But my all time favorite guest dog was a British Lab owned by a first timer using British methods, or at least Milner's bow to them, so I studied what the Brits were doing, too. And found them at least somewhat more in line with my experience and sentiments. These days, and a handful of Chesapeakes later, I still try to keep an eye on what's happening in this country and abroad. Though as the years have passed, I've become an increasingly casual student: both too lazy and too impatient to follow anyone else's canned "program" that I'm aware of when bringing them on as I so long have, albeit with tweaks "borrowed" from hither and yon - as well as the dogs, themselves - along the way, is so much easier for me and mine and, from all I've been able to see afield, at least as effective for practical purposes. 

Anyway, MG, I'd bet something nice that we do far less formal training than most on this board. And far more informal early development and maintenance through the principles that guide our daily interactions.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> One man who owns 1-6 dogs in his life still has the best chance with reinforced fetch in his program, pretty simple.
> 
> Most of the people here asking questions aren't getting top selections from great breeding. They aren't going to wash a dog out except to put it onto the couch and there is a limit to what the wife will tolerate.
> 
> ...



Who, anywhere ever, has suggested that "reinforced retrieve" isn't necessary? I don't know pecans about little apples, but I know the difference between apples and oranges, and for the purpose of this discussion FF and reinforced retrieve are the later. 

The most powerful force in my methodology is force of habit, which dang sure reinforces retrieve.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> I think it does have to do with lack of FF, which IS a lack of training in this example, but regardless this dog was bred and professionally trained in this wonderful utopian WAY that the OP was inquiring about. Shouldn't dogs bred and trained by the promoter of this WAY deliver a freaking duck to hand? I have not seen a dog who has been FF'd and CC'd do this. I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't seen it. However, I have seen this scene many times involving people who didn't think their dog needed FF. I believe this is the only time I have seen it with a professionally trained dog and (not a young pup mind you) what do you know, the trainers in question were trainers of the "WAY."


Don't know what rock you've been under, but one hardly needs to get around much to see even well Pro-trained, FFed and CCed come undone and do, or not do, all manner of things - if his eyes are open to it.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Not wanting to FF and wanting to train the "way" may have more to do with the trainer's emotions than the dog's well being/performance.
> 
> When humans (knowingly or unknowingly) put their own emotions ahead of the dog's needs - yea bad stuff tends to happen.


Ain't that the truth. Lot of folks could never do something unpleasant to their loving pets if they weren't deeply invested in its absolute necessity.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Rick Hall said:


> Don't know what rock you've been under, but one hardly needs to get around much to see even well Pro-trained, FFed and CCed come undone and do, or not do, all manner of things - if his eyes are open to it.



Yep
.. and I would guess an improperly ffed dog is probably going to be a lot more difficult to 'fix' than one who has a lack of training in general. Lots of pressure related issues that may 'pop up' as a result of incorrectly timed or applied force. Could be wrong about that though.. ingrained behavior is ingrained behavior..good or bad.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> A 1,000+ often downright arduous working retrieves a season...
> 
> I'd bet something nice that we do far less formal training than most on this board. And... maintenance through the principles that guide our daily interactions...
> 
> The most powerful force in my methodology is force of habit, which dang sure reinforces retrieve...


Think all the above is emblematic of how you (and precious few others) "train" (quote-unquote) as below?



crackerd said:


> ...a waterfowling guide whose dogs get hundreds of opportunities to "train" on making retrieves without the benefits of force fetch.


MG


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

crackerd said:


> (quote-unquote)
> 
> 
> 
> MG


How do you "unquote" someone? . Pet peave sigh. Back to your regular channel ( bickering) 

Jeff


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Rick Hall said:


> Who, anywhere ever, has suggested that "reinforced retrieve" isn't necessary? I don't know pecans about little apples, but I know the difference between apples and oranges, and for the purpose of this discussion FF and reinforced retrieve are the later.
> 
> The most powerful force in my methodology is force of habit, which dang sure reinforces retrieve.


When I say reinforced retrieve I'm talking about force fetch - they are, at the core, the exact same thing


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Lots of good points being made, especially Darrin's point about the only rule is there aren't many rules. I remember a point Mike Lardy makes in one of his early lessons, that being that his method is a proven, effective, efficient method, but there a many other ways to train a dog to a high level, they may just take longer. I personally know guys who train terribly it seems to me, but over time it works.

My first dog was a great hunting dog, guys who hunted over him still talk about certain retrieves 25 years later. That dog and I started with Richard Wolters, then a small amateur group of guys who followed Wolters, Tennant, James Lamb Free. Together we worked our way up through NAHRA, then AKC, to MH title. 

The Lardy tapes came out after that dog and my eyes were opened.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I very much doubt that the 'Wildrose Way' is targeted to an audience that have ambitions for success in AKC -FT. 
I also very much doubt That Lardy is targeted to an audience of duck dogs. 
I also very much doubt many on rtf (in it's thousands) are collecting silver or even ever likely to.
I do believe however there will be many on here or elsewhere that will buy in to both or others available in the market.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

polmaise said:


> I very much doubt that the 'Wildrose Way' is targeted to an audience that have ambitions for success in AKC -FT.
> I also very much doubt That Lardy is targeted to an audience of duck dogs.
> I also very much doubt many on rtf (in it's thousands) are collecting silver or even ever likely to.
> I do believe however there will be many on here or elsewhere that will buy in to both or others available in the market.


Well Said...for my American friends I will interpret;-)


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

polmaise said:


> I very much doubt that the 'Wildrose Way' is targeted to an audience that have ambitions for success in AKC -FT.
> I also very much doubt That Lardy is targeted to an audience of duck dogs.
> I also very much doubt many on rtf (in it's thousands) are collecting silver or even ever likely to.
> I do believe however there will be many on here or elsewhere that will buy in to both or others available in the market.


1) I'm not talking about FT. I don't run FT. The dogs I've seen who were trained the WR "Way" (whether professionally or amateur) where completely unimpressive in Hunt Tests. These were WR bred and trained. That is his big out when someone is critical, well they aren't bred and trained for American FT. No kidding. How about simply doing a nice job at a Hunt Test or club training session? It's like a straw man argument. As I said before, I have seen one very nice HT dog who was WR bred but he wasn't trained that WAY.

2) Mike Lardy explicitly says that he believes his program is ideal regardless of your goals up through the basics. The basics include Force Fetch and Collar Conditioning BTW.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

HuntinDawg said:


> 2) Mike Lardy explicitly says that he believes his program is ideal regardless of your goals up through the basics. The basics include Force Fetch and Collar Conditioning BTW.


On point 2, I believe he says all dogs should be trained the same through transition which includes pattern blinds, blind drills, early cold blinds, tune ups, swim by, etc. I agree with him. If you take a dog through the Lardy program through transition, he should be an outstanding hunting dog. At that point, you would start differing your training depending your plans for the dog(field trials, hunt tests, just hunting, etc)


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

bamajeff said:


> On point 2, I believe he says all dogs should be trained the same through transition which includes pattern blinds, blind drills, early cold blinds, tune ups, swim by, etc. I agree with him. If you take a dog through the Lardy program through transition, he should be an outstanding hunting dog. At that point, you would start differing your training depending your plans for the dog(field trials, hunt tests, just hunting, etc)


I think you are correct. He said training for hunting dogs and field trial dogs would not diverge until after Transition, which for those unfamiliar, is after basics...well after Force Fetch and Collar Conditioning.


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

If you look at the TRT (Lardy) flow chart, there is a distinct "split" in the advanced stage of training for FT/HT/gun dogs. Furthermore, in reading the Training with Mike Lardy Volumes, he, on several occasions, demonstrates why his (or any other similar program) is ideal of a gun dog. Much as the individual trainer should incorporate certain drills/set ups for the FT in their locale, they must set up training scenarios for the specific situations in which they hunt. He expresses this multiple times in the material. Is the average duck hunter going to rush out and buy the TRT/ECollar/TRM videos? No. Should they if they want a world class gun dog? Yes.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> When I say reinforced retrieve I'm talking about force fetch - they are, at the core, the exact same thing


Even in these PC times, you're likely the only one here that's buying that. FF in the vernacular of this board, involves a process of applying physical pressure that is relieved when Pup gets some part of a retrieve right. 

But if I conspire to get a young puppy to consistently bring an object to hand that's been tossed down a hallway, I've reinforced retrieve. Most likely not nearly enough to serve in the field, but at our house the process of making retrieving to hand habitual through largely enjoyable repetition, as well as bringing pups on in a framework that conspires to keep command refusal from seeming a viable option, has served us well. 

Even when conditions quite literally suck:


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> ...That said, if you're going to depend heavily on help from US mainstream trainers, you'll find that goes a whole lot smoother if you're doing things their way.


EYL, this thread pretty well exemplifies the point I've tried to make above. Probably easiest for most just to go with the flow...


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Think all the above is emblematic of how you (and precious few others) "train" (quote-unquote) as below?
> 
> 
> 
> MG


Now I've got you. I think. Never quite sure with your posts...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Rick Hall said:


> Even in these PC times, you're likely the only one here that's buying that. FF in the vernacular of this board, involves a process of applying physical pressure that is relieved when Pup gets some part of a retrieve right.


I'm a retriever trainer first and a pet trainer second Rick, I know exactly what force fetch is and have performed the procedure on several dozen dogs to one extent or another. Reinforcement comes in many forms, of course, from throwing the object again to applying force to training food. 

I'm not trying to be PC - last think I would do. Force fetch is just an inaccurate representation of what the process really entails. You're not forcing the dog to do anything, you're reinforcing a behavior through the application of pressure. 

There is an entire movement of people (I'm sure you're aware) that have been shoving the word force up our asses for a long time. I don't use the word for that reason and that reason only.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

My first labrador, fine british/irish pedigree, was trained by a pro in ireland before I got her at 18mos. I spent time in NY with Ian Openshaw and Mike Stewart at a shooting estate to learn the basics of the british way so to speak. I thought i had a nicely trained dog, greatest thing since sliced bread and all that stuff. 
So..... 
I heard about AKC field trials (no british ones here) and got hooked up with a really good trainer John Cavanaugh who lived nearby. 
Well, let me tell you... 
Our first day attending a training day with Johns field trial training group was a rude awakening. First my dog had no chance of transitioning to US methods. Maybe after a few years but not likely. 
The stuff they trained on that day blew my mind. First set up was mixed bag quad, 3 retired and pheasant flyer. Then 2 blinds through test. Etc etc. 
That day I began my search to find a well bred american dog with a chance to play the game and Never from that day forward was I interested in anything British, at least while living in America and addicted to field trials. 
Just say no.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

It's why 'we' don't have any over here Breck  
The OP was asking about comments on Wildrose Way ,not a 'Them or Us' or 'Who is best' British or American. 
My post earlier indicated that although 'Any ones way' may be right or wrong ..You certainly don't get captions or marketing slogans on 'programs' such as ''Learn the ''x'' way and have yourself a right good meat dog'' . 

...
Why did you decide on your first dog from Ireland ?...Must have been thousands to choose from around Your Yard .


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> It's why 'we' don't have any over here Breck
> The OP was asking about comments on Wildrose Way ,not a 'Them or Us' or 'Who is best' British or American.
> My post earlier indicated that although 'Any ones way' may be right or wrong ..You certainly don't get captions or marketing slogans on 'programs' such as ''Learn the ''x'' way and have yourself a right good meat dog'' .
> 
> ...


My point was that british training methods while fine in their own world, have no usefulness in the United States. We have virtually zero hunting estates, driven shoots etc and labradors here are primarily used for water fowl while nothing in the British repertoire prepares a dog for water work period. 
My irish dog came by way of a friend in Pennsylvania who kept several labradors at Humewood Castle south of Dublin. At Humewood they shot some 50000 duck & pheasant annually. When he bred a nice FTW bitch I was gifted a puppy and left it in ireland until reasonable basic training was completed.


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## KeystoneDekeChesapeake (Dec 2, 2016)

EYL- You sure opened a can of worms with this one. If you *set* *real* *goals* you will find a way to get there. Common sense, read your dog, and keep asking questions that get responses like this. If you truly love to train you'll love your training. It's a lot of fun. Enjoy it!!

-Ben


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> My point was that british training methods while fine in their own world, have no usefulness in the United States. We have virtually zero hunting estates, driven shoots etc and *labradors here are primarily used for water fowl while nothing in the British repertoire prepares a dog for water work period.*
> My irish dog came by way of a friend in Pennsylvania who kept several labradors at Humewood Castle south of Dublin. At Humewood they shot some *50000 duck & pheasant *annually. When he bred a nice FTW bitch I was gifted a puppy and left it in ireland until reasonable basic training was completed.


Hmmm. were the ducks in the bush ?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Hmmm. were the ducks in the bush ?


Ha! Actually many fell in the forests surrounding the two lakes. 
. 
52.912919,-6.616164


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'm not trying to be PC - last think I would do. Force fetch is just an inaccurate representation of what the process really entails. You're not forcing the dog to do anything, you're reinforcing a behavior through the application of pressure.


You're trying to put lipstick on a pig. Force fetch is actually reinforcing a behavior through the removal of pressure, but that pressure is force which the dog has but one way to avoid. IE: it is forced to comply. 

And changing the practice's name to try to avoid public pressure strikes me as the very definition of being PC.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Breck said:


> My point was that british training methods while fine in their own world, have no usefulness in the United States.


If I've ever seen a Wildrose dog, I was unaware of it. But the father and son team who are the hardest hunting and most effective waterfowlers I've known primarily hunt up and down the lower portion of the Mississippi River Delta, killing not just ducks but numbers of light geese most wouldn't believe, largely by virtue of hunting places others simply won't go through the misery to access. Their old dog, which handled crazy numbers of birds under conditions much tougher than most in this country came from Tom Hamilton at Bracken Fen, and she managed well enough that Hamilton is now bringing on her successor for them. 

Poached this from his website:


> English methods of training are far more positive. No force training, no force fetch, no electric collars, etc. English methods employ tasks the dog can easily achieve, then the tasks are gradually made more difficult.


Which seems to have transitioned quite well to the United States' field. 


Now, if our OP's aim is to win US trials, I'd think it behooves him to purchase the best US trial blood he can afford and train accordingly, but that isn't my guess.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Rick Hall said:


> If I've ever seen a Wildrose dog, I was unaware of it. But the father and son team who are the hardest hunting and most effective waterfowlers I've known primarily hunt up and down the lower portion of the Mississippi River Delta, killing not just ducks but numbers of light geese most wouldn't believe, largely by virtue of hunting places others simply won't go through the misery to access. Their old dog, which handled crazy numbers of birds under conditions much tougher than most in this country came from Tom Hamilton at Bracken Fen, and she managed well enough that Hamilton is now bringing on her successor for them.
> 
> Poached this from his website:
> 
> ...


 I think you touched upon a key point. 
From the dog's perspective hunting means every bird retrieved is a freshly shot bird 
and steadiness is important...sometimes a couple of live ducks ducks are sluiced with volleys of shots right in front of the dog. 
Many times a freshly shot bird is a cripple that is no longer at the mark location.
When Rick says "United States field, I think he means hunting field.

In hunt tests or field trials, most retrieves are not warm, freshly shot birds. 
Some are cold, wet, (sometimes pretty skanky) ducks with the scent of other retrievers on them. 
In Canada field trials or hunt tests all retrieves are not warm, freshly shot birds. 

I can understand training methods that work well for hunting may not work very well if one
wanted to play the hunt test or field trial game.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

It is especially nice when you have a pup that does not need any 'force' to pick up a skanky, cold, wet duck. A lot of dogs that have been ffed do. But then a lot of ffed dogs are forced on a live, crippled, or freshly killed bird, too (rightly or wrongly)....


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Rick Hall said:


> Now, if our OP's aim is to win US trials, I'd think it behooves him to purchase the best US trial blood he can afford and train accordingly, but that isn't my guess.



My current youngster will eventually compete in derbies, Q's and maybe some Am's .... but anything above the qualifying stake pretty much entirely dependent on whether I have the means to send or take him outside for winter training. I think a well bred UK FT stock lab could be trained to play in the all age stakes under the right tutelage.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I think a well bred UK FT stock lab could be trained to play in the all age stakes under the right tutelage.


. 
Countless dogs of actual British Kennel Club pedigrees loaded with field champions and the lesser field trial winners have been imported into the US and many thousands with less impressive pedigrees have been bred here. 
Not a single dog of all the tens of thousands has ever placed in an all age stake. So chances of being successful? Zero.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> .
> 
> Not a single dog of all the tens of thousands has ever placed in an all age stake. So chances of being successful? Zero.


Best them Tens of thousands don't buy a program that shows a process for success at all age stake then ? '_suitable for all_' ..You can't blame Wildrose or the British for that .lol


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

You are right Breck. Thousands have been imported/bred here. Of those thousands how many are ever trained for American FT's? 

Anyway, I really don't think there are zero chances of being successful. I think it is a matter of when. Someone eventually will have the desire, means and/or ability to take a dog of direct British FT descent and play competitively in American FT's. Underdog? yes. Certainly.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Actually Bill Hillman imported several Brits about 8 or 10 years ago to use with his methods and they didn't last long.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Breck said:


> .
> Countless dogs of actual British Kennel Club pedigrees loaded with field champions and the lesser field trial winners have been imported into the US and many thousands with less impressive pedigrees have been bred here.
> Not a single dog of all the tens of thousands has ever placed in an all age stake. So chances of being successful? Zero.


Ever hear of AFC Holway Barty? Or do English FT Goldens not count?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Actually Bill Hillman imported several Brits about 8 or 10 years ago to use with his methods and they didn't last long.


That really is strange . As when you watch Bill Hillman and especially the early process that 'So many' advocate and promote on here including those that are successful in AKC -FT . His 'Way' is So much like the UK 'Way' ...
Bill doesn't do AKC- FT trials though does he ?


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

polmaise said:


> That really is strange . As when you watch Bill Hillman and especially the early process that 'So many' advocate and promote on here including those that are successful in AKC -FT . His 'Way' is So much like the UK 'Way' ...
> Bill doesn't do AKC- FT trials though does he ?


Yes he does. He is the most successful Derby trainer. that is why everyone is on board with his puppy program. It is proven to work. Vic


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

How many of this kind of dog has actually been taken seriously by any Field Trialer? I've never met any Trialer that brags that he's giving his English bred lab a shot.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ZEKESMAN said:


> Yes he does. He is the most successful Derby trainer. that is why everyone is on board with his puppy program. It is proven to work. Vic


Quote Originally Posted by ErinsEdge View Post
Actually Bill Hillman imported several Brits about 8 or 10 years ago to use with his methods and they didn't last long.
So it must be the dogs right ? Vic .
Whenever anyone of any 'Ilk' or any country portrays the dog as the weak link in the team it shows where the weakness is. 
Derby is ?..You will get the 'Copterdoc's' posting  ..You can't blame 'Wildrose' for marketing a product to an audience any more than You can support a successful achiever at the sport selling a product to You. 
You buy in to it or you don't ...You buy what suits Your needs and goals .


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Whenever anyone of any 'Ilk' or any country portrays the dog as the weak link in the team it shows where the weakness is.
> Derby is ?.


Derby dogs have to Mark which is mostly innate. No sense in training a dog that can't mark for FTs. It is mostly why we breed to dogs that can *produce* marking dogs


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Hillman was so successful in field trials folks paid several hundred thousand for dogs he trained. 
Banner? 
. 
Regarding British labradors, I had 2 and liked them as gundogs and pets. 
I know several people who seriously trained british bred dogs for akc trials, some wildrose dogs in particular, but none amounted to much beyond a typical washout career. If I dug deep I may find one dog who squeaked out a qualifying second place and maybe another with a derby placement.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Derby dogs have to Mark which is mostly innate. No sense in training a dog that can't mark for FTs. It is mostly why we breed to dogs that can *produce* marking dogs


All dogs can mark something that moves. 
No wonder You guys got the wrong ones over there ...For over 100 years we have been breeding for 'Game finding ability' 
As for 'genetics' ... A specialty for some in this modern day ...I liken to the guy at the race track who can recite all the winners and riders and the form' ...but doesn't actually train the horse (dog) but is a real good pundit 
Years ago we just had a mentor that was yer brethren ... 
Nowadays ..it's a DVD ..To tell you how it should be done ...or some Good citizen ......that knows ?..........well. 
Hang on ..'Breck' are You peddling or Back peddling ? ..not long back You gave chances of Zero ...Now you say ..'well if you dig deep' ..even a derby ribbon ? 
...
Wow..tens of thousands for a dog that 'Marks' ? ....
I jest 
I'm just a Coal miners son who has little in the way of Silver ,other than those who have won it. I started with Pigeons the breeding and selection and an 'eye' for '_marking'_ the good ones, colour ,size,temperament, offspring, yada yada ..So Yes I get up tight with those that say 'cull' and then back track on pc ! Because I know what they mean. I also have good stead with 'Long Dogs' ..So the 'Waterloo Cup' is dear to my heart (Y'all may want to look that one up !) ... Yer man/woman ain't no Gentleman or Gentleman's Gundog and neither are most when it comes to selling ! . So I don't buy it .
You can be as smart as you want on pc . Y'all just have a dog .Same as the rest of us .


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Breck said:


> Hillman was so successful in field trials folks paid several hundred thousand for dogs he trained.
> Banner?
> .
> Regarding British labradors, I had 2 and liked them as gundogs and pets.
> I know several people who seriously trained british bred dogs for akc trials, some wildrose dogs in particular, but none amounted to much beyond a typical washout career. If I dug deep I may find one dog who squeaked out a qualifying second place and maybe another with a derby placement.


Yes had the the very same experience w WR dogs but I do endorse the British method of training at least partially....e collars at a point where the dog is basically trained (6 months) and now use when needed for correction


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

Most pups bred for US FTs never title. Some derby points and QAA is fairly common but FC or AFC is a small percentage of dogs bred for the game. My point is well bred US FT pups are a long shot.....a British bred pup not bred for US FTs would be the longest of long shots. As far as I know it's not been done and I know of none that are even competitive. 

For what it's worth I owned and trained a British bred bitch that was a solid HT dog HRCH/MH


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Terry Marshall said:


> Yes had the the very same experience w WR dogs but I do endorse the British method of training at least partially....e collars at a point where the dog is basically trained (6 months) *and now use when needed for correction*


Apologies to OP . Divergence from original post . 
Terry, Correct me if I'm wrong ?..Is that not the essence of e-collar ?...Overlaying known commands or behavior . 
The terminology of 'correction' however would appear (to some) that it is negative ... 
Anyhow, ..Why would You require a correction if it was an already learned behavior ? hmm ?.. Just saying ..that over here 'Sit means sit' ....lol
Having a laugh with an old Poacher this evening . ;-)


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Usually, correction is for something other than SIT/HERE/HEEL/ETC. Corrections typically come from water cheating, not fighting factors(terrain, wind, suction, etc). Much less 'learned' or black/white than command refusal.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Terry Marshall said:


> Yes had the the very same experience w WR dogs but I do endorse the British method of training at least partially....e collars at a point where the dog is basically trained (6 months) and now use when needed for correction


You think that's the British method?


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

captainjack said:


> You think that's the British method?


No..you are reading my post incorrectly...I do endorse the British method of training dogs (partially)...You'll have to research what all that entails....The second part of my post with regards to the ecollar is where I endorse the use on corrections especially at a distance just as Bamajeff #99 stated.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> All dogs can mark something that moves.
> No wonder You guys got the wrong ones over there ...For over 100 years we have been breeding for 'Game finding ability'


That is essentially the difference in our games and yours and why it appears you can not relate them. All dogs can't mark at a great distance because hunt em up is discouraged.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Terry Marshall said:


> No..you are reading my post incorrectly...I do endorse the British method of training dogs (partially)...You'll have to research what all that entails....The second part of my post with regards to the ecollar is where I endorse the use on corrections especially at a distance just as Bamajeff #99 stated.


What else do you think people do with the ecollar?

Every program out there only advocates correcting dogs for failures after basics. Advanced dogs trained daily likely only get a couple nicks a week on average. My personal dogs, which are trained only on weekends, may go several weeks with no collar corrections.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> That is essentially the difference in our games and yours and why it appears you can not relate them. All dogs can't mark at a great distance because hunt em up is discouraged.


Not just discouraged, but penalized. 

The rules say:


A dog that disturbs cover unnecessarily, clearly well
out of the area of a fall, either by not going directly to
the area, or by leaving it, even though it eventually finds
the bird without being handled, must be scored low in
Perseverance or receive no credit in Marking on that particular bird.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> That is essentially the difference in our games and yours and why it appears you can not relate them. *All dogs can't mark at a great distance *


Not So. (imo) But You can teach a good dog to mark well. 
..
If you can't then all them programs are a 'wash out' ..lol


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Not So. (imo) But You can teach a good dog to mark well.
> ..
> If you can't then all them programs are a 'wash out' ..lol


. 
Over here a "good" dog is usually not "good" enough to teach "marking". A "good" dog that can "mark" but not the greatest can be taught to mark better. 
Plus over here in addition to being a stellar marker a dog must be able to "count to 4" in one sitting.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Breck said:


> Plus over here in addition to being a stellar marker a dog must be able to "count to 4" in one sitting.


If you ever decide you want to run the SRS, they should be able to count a little higher than that. Saw a water sextuple at an SRS event one year.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> .
> Over here a "good" dog is usually not "good" enough to teach "marking". A "good" dog that can "mark" but not the greatest can be taught to mark better.
> Plus over here in addition to being a stellar marker a dog must be able to "count to 4" in one sitting.


Well ,yea got me going down that trail ..of what I said earlier ..It ain't about us and them or who is this or that ! .. but OK , You Win !! 
How many are 'marked' here ?....We got every one ! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Well ,yea got me going down that trail ..of what I said earlier ..It ain't about us and them or who is this or that ! .. but OK , You Win !!
> How many are 'marked' here ?....We got every one !
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc


. 
Ha ha
If every shot in that video pricked a bird how could dog miss any. ;-)
. 
Again not disparaged anything you guys do over there but marking tests as we know them aren't something you guys train for or attempt to do. Neither do you ask dogs to perform as we ask them to do on blinds especially water blinds. 
The retrieves and blinds you face are difficult in their own right. 
Love what you achieve with your dogs in the UK, Ireland and the mainland but......... Lots of buts... Haa


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

captainjack said:


> What else do you think people do with the ecollar?
> 
> Every program out there only advocates correcting dogs for failures after basics. Advanced dogs trained daily likely only get a couple nicks a week on average. My personal dogs, which are trained only on weekends, may go several weeks with no collar corrections.


You are definitely a piece of work...thank god you have a "program" cause without it you'd be lost...Many many trainers use the ecollar for things they should not...And I am not going to list them..But I will say you can get so much more from a good Lab with common sense and appropriate pressure. (NOT E PRESSURE)


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Terry Marshall said:


> You are definitely a piece of work...thank god you have a "program" cause without it you'd be lost...Many many trainers use the ecollar for things they should not...And I am not going to list them..But I will say you can get so much more from a good Lab with common sense and appropriate pressure. (NOT E PRESSURE)


Yea, you're clearly in a class by yourself.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Meanwhile almost back on topic ....;-) It might be apposite to show a typical bit of work on a driven shoot, and judge the differences from experience in the US, both in the field and Trials.

The snap below is taken by me from our normal picking up position on the drive "Glanbechan Wood". There are other terms to describe this particular spot, and "Muck up corner" would be a near approximation. The potential for things to go wrong is what makes it fun in my view, and I always do duty here.










What we see is my chum Bert and his Springer Jake at the bottom of the hanging wood, just quietly tapping the fence and undergrowth to move birds along to the flushing point, together with a "walking Gun". This chap will, on my instruction, formate on Bert about thirty yards behind him, and move towards the main flushing point. He will shoot any birds (pheasant and partridge) that flush early, either going over him or to his right. Our job is to pick what he shoots wherever it falls. 

And here's what actually happend .....










From our position we see a heavily hit bird drop into the wood; I mark it and so does Lab "Louis". My judgement is it will run. We cast off "Louis", but not towards the pitch because the wire on the woodside is too tight and well fixed; there is however a gap that he can scramble under about seventy yards back. So, "Louis" ignore that mark old boy, and go to where I send you, stop on the whistle and take a left over under the wire. Then a "Hie lost" whistle toot to say "do your stuff". I need to keep an eye on him because I don't want him moving past Bert and getting into the drive. If he does that, birds will flush all over and my radio will burst into flames. So I must concentrate on his progress.

At which point Bert chimes in on said radio "Eugene there's a pricked cock bird coming behind you". I've shown it's approximate path in blue. I've got Lab "Eddie" by my side and as I turn to look for the cock bird so does he, and marks it, still in the air. We both watch it cross the stream and the trees around it, then pitch on the far slope and leg it into the hedge line. Again a straight line approach isn't safe, the wire is very tight and well dug in. So "Eddie" is cast off towards a gate in our field ... stop on the whistle, left over and get under the gate; stop on the whistle, right over and move to the fence line bordering the stream. From there he can wriggle under some old sheep fence and get over the water and onto the bird. He went across the stream, up the hedge line to the pitch and immediately turned back; the cock had slipped through the hedge and back towards the stream. His route is the black line.

After that he's on his own, I just get occasional glimpses as he works up the stream bed; the pair of eyes in the back of my head are still checking "Louis" out. Some three (?) hundreds yards off the bird breaks cover into a patch of gorse with our man close behind; a bit of a kerfuffle and he's on his way back with a very lively runner, and via the gate he brings it hand. I'd like you to believe that this pic below is the actual event .... it isn't but it's surely "Eddie" with a cock runner on the same field.










"Louis" found his way back too, with his retrieve so all was well. Just to pile Pellion on Ossa, I had Lab "Jack" out too, but he was still working out some desperate cover on a previous drive being handled by friend Katie.

So there we are, dogs doing an everyday job on a shoot, but going through evolutions that might put some US Triallers into hair pulling mode. The late and lamented Howard Niemi, a Trialler himself said he'd love to have a go; sadly it didn't happen, but you have my assurance it's fun, and not without it's intricacies. And a bit of training helps.

Obviously this is just one part of the profile; no coastal wildfowling, moon flighting, pigeon shooting or rabbiting, but it will I hope give something of an idea to them as wot int seed it afore.

Eug

Added as a PS. The Gun had a a black Lab with him ...... utterly inert. Would that they all were!


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Added as a PS. The Gun had a a black Lab with him ...... utterly inert. Would that they all were!


A bit of common ground, that wish.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

That was a really great description CB. Thanks so much! It shows a big difference in what is expected of dogs over there and dogs here. Knowing the terrain of the area you hunt is vitally important to the well being of the dog. I'd have loved to watch Eddie on that runner.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Col Blimp #112 nicely done. Way back in fall 1972 Cambridge area went to one as while moving through. Saw the Queen's rejects in the early 80s at Game Fair , Anoka, MN who were sold by her primary trainer(no return due to importation laws @ the time) . Sold for American bragging rights.

Apples and oranges games.Just like some HTers still claim those white coat FT dogs can't hunt/nor do their tests. Yet those same HTers love to breed to FT stock! I did a statistical study/article of HT dogs back in the 80-90s of 10 HT Clubs ' entries over 5 years. They were 75% MH FT bred. SH and JH were mostly 70% HT bred. It was published in Tom Dokken's "Gun Dog News." Wrote for 5 years.Somebody hot on apples and oranges should do it again. Start checking the RTF classified as well. NONE of my FT labs are kept if they can not scratch hunt land or water . Pass, jump, decoy etc They all were self divers except for one. 

Solution send all our American dogs back to the UK and see how much watered down they are . What Yank FT dogs Polmaise or Col have you ever seen try your game? Have any young'uns ever been brought over trained and UK trialed? Results?
Lastly someone (RTF) recently brought up Border Collies. There are many types of Border Collies , UK Scots to Brit, to Aussie to NZ and they breed for different qualities. They play an American version in the MD/Va area and elsewhere especially with the Scottish Games. Anyway, met a Collie breeder out in Southern Wisconsin who plays the big game and has three strains. She had sheep paddocks, and about 50-75 dogs. Types -1. Pure hell fire drawn from all the world. Expert handlers needed. Expensive 2. High test for competition but skilled handlers. 3. Normal- energetic to do obedience, agility , confirmation and can handle household life.

Go at it.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Just for Breck ...... we do (or some on we does) a tad of water work even on a driven shoot.

I think you've seen this before, but I'd make 25 - 30 retrieves a week from the lake and off the far shore......










Not sure of the distances involved, but the rectangle at the bottom of the pic to the right of centre is a standard tennis court. You may recall I wanted to do more advanced and challenging water training just for the fun of it, but I got overtaken by sad events and lost heart. 
Eug


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*swliszka*,

I've never seen or heard of a US bred dog over here either in trials or in the field. Some years back Dennis Voight was captain of a visiting team from N America that entered a Working Test, but that was it as far as I know. As a by the by the best diving dog I ever had was a Springer.

Eug


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Col did your dog go out on the water find no bird where the bird ahould be, use scent on the water, and dive underwater to retrieve? Clarify. My one FT expensive English Springer had no such talent and went deliberately to the happy hunting grounds. A waste of two years. American bred cull.

Well if Polamaise agrees we have two RTFers agree. On the other hand maybe the experiment would be to send some American HT and FT whelps to the UK and have them trained from12 weeks on forward to play the UK game. See the reults. Breeding, breed, individual talent or not. Get the picture. It appears SUPERIOR Border Collies can do the game wherever bred.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> Col did your dog go out on the water find no bird where the bird should be, use scent on the water, and dive underwater to retrieve?


Often he did but he wasn't what you'd call reliable. 

Eug


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Rick Hall said:


> You're trying to put lipstick on a pig. Force fetch is actually reinforcing a behavior through the removal of pressure, but that pressure is force which the dog has but one way to avoid. IE: it is forced to comply.
> 
> And changing the practice's name to try to avoid public pressure strikes me as the very definition of being PC.


We're dancing around language for no reason Rick. We both know exactly how it works. We can disagree that the dog is being "forced" to do something with the application of pressure. I don't see it that way and I don't train it that way. My dogs are fetching long before we add any pressure. I'm reinforcing something they already do, not "forcing" them to do anything. If they don't want to fetch in the first place - I won't try and make them. Not worth the effort.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> We're dancing around language for no reason Rick. We both know exactly how it works. We can disagree that the dog is being "forced" to do something with the application of pressure. I don't see it that way and I don't train it that way. My dogs are fetching long before we add any pressure. I'm reinforcing something they already do, not "forcing" them to do anything. If they don't want to fetch in the first place - I won't try and make them. Not worth the effort.


You can call it whatever makes you happy. I just don't think the dodge will play with anyone but you,.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Rick Hall said:


> You can call it whatever makes you happy. I just don't think the dodge will play with anyone but you,.


 It's irrelevant - I will end up with the same result as you - a dog that goes reliably and tools to correct the issue if he doesn't.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *swliszka*,
> 
> I've never seen or heard of a US bred dog over here either in trials or in the field.


Nor Me ! 
I did offer a 'Fair swap' to two 'mericans' who have spurs ,by way of You send me one I'll send You one,each pays the shipping so no sale. I'll Train Yours and You Train mine. 
I'll Trial Yours ,You Trial mine. 
...
The traffic of UK dogs over the pond is increasing .


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Polmaise-- That is a real fair deal. I find that hard to believe no one would take you up on that. No "wiping the eye" prospects? Maybe we should start a "lend lease" program with racing pigeons? Relive our misspent youth on birds.


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