# Hypothetical: Best stud to breed to Ammo for brown babies...



## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

So here are the restrictions:

Pups to run FT and Hunt tests

Has to be a chocolate or chocolate factored stud 

EIC and CNM Clear


So what stud on paper would you believe to be the best and why?


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

bigo181979 said:


> so here are the restrictions:
> 
> Pups to run ft and hunt tests
> 
> ...


*** Hook ***


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

It's a moot point. They are breeding to a black stud... If and when they breed her. Tentative game plan for this fall/winter. Stud will have an N in the title... All I'm at liberty to say.

All pups should be black from what I am told.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

huntinman said:


> It's a moot point. They are breeding to a black stud... If and when they breed her. Tentative game plan for this fall/winter. Stud will have an N in the title... All I'm at liberty to say.
> 
> All pups should be black from what I am told.


Smart folks! Make the best puppies without worrying about chasing color.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> Smart folks! Make the best puppies without worrying about chasing color.


Exactly...


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

ISn't Hook an EIC carrier?


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

huntinman said:


> It's a moot point. They are breeding to a black stud... If and when they breed her. Tentative game plan for this fall/winter. Stud will have an N in the title... All I'm at liberty to say.
> 
> All pups should be black from what I am told.


Lots of sisters out there though... hence the hypothetical part 

and given her limited breeding window I can't blame them for that.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

bigo181979 said:


> Lots of sisters out there though... hence the hypothetical part
> 
> and given her limited breeding window I can't blame them for that.


might be lots of sisters but there is only ONE Ammo....she is something special


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Charles C. said:


> Smart folks! Make the best puppies without worrying about chasing color.


IMO, Hook would give you what you're looking for. I'd also look hard @ Patton.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

huntinman said:


> It's a moot point. They are breeding to a black stud... If and when they breed her. Tentative game plan for this fall/winter. Stud will have an N in the title... All I'm at liberty to say.
> 
> All pups should be black from what I am told.


Just a N, not a NA?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Dave Farrar said:


> Just a N, not a NA?


Haha... Could be an A in there too!


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## Bbrown (Jan 5, 2013)

Hook is a carrier and I also believe that Ammo is as well.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

huntinman said:


> Haha... Could be an A in there too!


didnt they try with grady and it didnt take?

possible rematch?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

huntinman said:


> It's a moot point. They are breeding to a black stud... If and when they breed her. Tentative game plan for this fall/winter. Stud will have an N in the title... All I'm at liberty to say.
> 
> All pups should be black from what I am told.


So the obvious question which no one has asked, is the chosen sperm donor living or dead?


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

EdA said:


> So the obvious question which no one has asked, is the chosen sperm donor living or dead?


That would narrow it down on the guess just a little;-)


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

Some one mentioned Patton. He was a carrier.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> So the obvious question which no one has asked, is the chosen sperm donor living or dead?



Ed, they want to do a natural breeding this time... Alive and well!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Ed, they want to do a natural breeding this time... Alive and well!


Holland would be more than happy to volunteer his services, his offspring are very young and very cute.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> Holland would be more than happy to volunteer his services, his offspring are very young and very cute.


And some very productive so far!


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

EdA said:


> Holland would be more than happy to volunteer his services, his offspring are very young and very cute.


I would have to say that is a great choice. And besides being very cute they are very smart !


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

IMHO it should be the best dog. In this case it will be an outcross. If breeding for chocolate color you breed back to a black, get whatever foundation strength you can, produce a litter w/chocolate factor , trial the best , breed the best back for color. Chocolates should never be bred to yellows due to nose/coat issues. Seen many bad ones over the years. I hope they make it. My chosen bitch after health and performance issues came down w/ ovarian cysts and had to be spayed/lived for 12 years. Charter member of the Brown Dog Mafia.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Bbrown said:


> Hook is a carrier and I also believe that Ammo is as well.


I don't know if she is or isn't. I'm not going to say anything unless I know. It really doesn't matter. It would be fairly easy to work around that. Give me the talent.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

*L*...can see Holland jumping in his run barking...pick me...pick me. Very good choice but I am a bit bias


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

Lpgar said:


> *L*...can see Holland jumping in his run barking...pick me...pick me. Very good choice but I am a bit bias


The reason we are BOTH a bit biased is we have seen first hand how nice those Holland Pups are.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

ramblinmaxx said:


> The reason we are BOTH a bit biased is we have seen first hand how nice those Holland Pups are.


I trained with one Wed in KY. Trey Lawrence's dog. Very nice little girl with 8 PTs in 2 derby starts. 

Super talented and seemed intelligent too.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I wonder how many people are already on the "list of potential puppy owners"...might be the most anticipated offspring since Prince William and Lady Catherine or Jay Zee and Beyonce'


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

When I was in Idaho they had already chosen, and had a waiting list; with a pretty hefty price tag. Natural breeding, I heard the name but I'm forgetful in my old age. Still I hope it works out for them. She is a great dog. It'd be nice to see some of her get. Life is always tough for a working mom, and we never see enough pups out of noteworthy females. I guess they're too busy conquering the world.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> I wonder how many people are already on the "list of potential puppy owners"...might be the most anticipated offspring since Prince William and Lady Catherine or Jay Zee and Beyonce'


Bon, I can confirm one on the list...;-) 

And I talked to Micki... She said Ammo was practicing the Texas Two Step... Not sure what that means:grin:


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Bon, I can confirm one on the list...;-)
> 
> And I talked to Micki... She said Ammo was practicing the Texas Two Step... Not sure what that means:grin:


Quick..Quick ..Slow....or some other cryptic message ;-);-)


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> Quick..Quick ..Slow....or some other cryptic message ;-);-)


HaHa! 

I'm sure a Troubador could provide a little dancin' music, no?


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

EdA said:


> So the obvious question which no one has asked, is the chosen sperm donor living or dead?


Well for the sake of keeping this "hypothetical" (and to fit the sisters of Ammo scenario) lets say either one so long as it is actually available.


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

ramblinmaxx said:


> The reason we are BOTH a bit biased is we have seen first hand how nice those Holland Pups are.


So Holland is Chocolate factored?


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

swliszka said:


> IMHO it should be the best dog. In this case it will be an outcross. If breeding for chocolate color you breed back to a black, get whatever foundation strength you can, produce a litter w/chocolate factor , trial the best , breed the best back for color. Chocolates should never be bred to yellows due to nose/coat issues. Seen many bad ones over the years. I hope they make it. My chosen bitch after health and performance issues came down w/ ovarian cysts and had to be spayed/lived for 12 years. Charter member of the Brown Dog Mafia.


I hear folks talk about chocolate breeding for color is dumb and I get you should breed for the best possible cross. But there are plenty of people that do the same with yellows and pure blacks, but you don't hear near as much with them. I am guessing because those colors are obviously much more established and have a much larger quality genetic pool to pick from... Am I wrong here?

Whats wrong with trying to breed the best dog of a specific coat?


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

bigo181979 said:


> So Holland is Chocolate factored?


I don't think so, but I would think you would want to breed for the best, not the hair coat. Hook and Patton are not EIC clear either and they were mentioned.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bigo181979 said:


> So Holland is Chocolate factored?


No he is not but he is not selective about the color of girlfriends


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bigo181979 said:


> I hear folks talk about chocolate breeding for color is dumb and I get you should breed for the best possible cross. But there are plenty of people that do the same with yellows and pure blacks, but you don't hear near as much with them. I am guessing because those colors are obviously much more established and have a much larger quality genetic pool to pick from... Am I wrong here?
> 
> Whats wrong with trying to breed the best dog of a specific coat?


When you choose color as your first priority you are bypassing what should be your first priority, choosing color first is all about marketing.


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

And over the years I have realized that using color as a marketing tool really doesn't turn out that well either. The first female I bred to Holland was yellow, and since I knew I would not get any yellow pups from the litter you would think I would pass on Holland.........but since I saw his mamma run, saw his daddy run and saw Holland run I knew that it didn't matter if there would be no yellows, I knew I would be getting the best litter I could from that breeding and I just wish I would have had 4 more pups than I did because I could have sold them too, and probably would have gotten to keep one. The next female I will breed to Holland is also yellow and I know that no matter how many pups she has, I'm keeping one. These are fantastic pups.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Marty....I wished I had 10 more female pups from my Holland breeding.


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## Ethompson63 (Sep 13, 2013)

So am I hearing a Tubb breeding to Ammo?


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

So here are the restrictions:

Pups to run FT and Hunt tests

Has to be a chocolate or chocolate factored stud 

EIC and CNM Clear


So what stud on paper would you believe to be the best and why? 

If we stuck to this set of criteria it is a VERY short list, wether live or frozen.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ethompson63 said:


> So am I hearing a Tubb breeding to Ammo?


Yes, that is the game plan.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

huntinman said:


> Yes, that is the game plan.


Sworn to secrecy were ya ?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Sworn to secrecy were ya ?


Not exactly, just didn't have permission to say anything... When I got it, the name was divulged. Ammo and family are on the road with higher priorities than internet banter at the moment...


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

who ever it is, is a semen donor at best, lets just hope it works this time


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

If Tubb is the "chosen one" his father, Weezer Retreezer" , sired by Carolina's Smoke on the Water BK/BC whose mother Carolina's Liquid Smoke BK/BC going back to Snake Eyes BK/BC going to his mother's line was BK/BC...there is a very limited mathematical probability of a mixed litter.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

No there is not, Weezer is BLACK to the core.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Not that busy, they had time for your Paparazzi reporting. Besides the Friday nite festivities at a Natl are pretty bleak.


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

So going back to my original question I am surprised no one has mentioned Nan Dool Elwood Blues.... Or Dakota's Cajun Roux...


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

bigo181979 said:


> So going back to my original question I am surprised no one has mentioned Nan Dool Elwood Blues.... Or Dakota's Cajun Roux...


Not surprised at all. Just curious, why would you consider these two?

fp


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

I like Nandools Elwood Blues. I also think Tiger McBunn or his son It's All Over Now Baby Blue would cross well with the Barracuda Blue line. One could also throw Runnin With The Devil in the mix.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm If we're just throwing names out there, and we were looking for chocolate; I'd cross back to the Barracuda line, some good matches have been made, going that way. Ex; Pirate (EIC clear) carries chocolate, 2 generations removed, only worry would be it would also double up on the Lean Mac side as well which might get a little hot. Still Looks like Tubb has him on both sides as well, My observation have always been a little Lean Mac goes along way. They have a bit of balance in HarleyXlottie, and Carolines smoke on the water; which should mesh up with Roux's lines; Ammo has a good portion of Way to go Rocky; and is a nice dog herself, should balance any sperm donor, that gets chosen.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

AFC Chugach Hill Jazz Rascal or a son of that either carries or is chocolate.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

As long as we're playing in the land of make believe and are breeding for the best litter of "color" there was a dog named Rascal who had a "N" in front of his name and had an offspring with an "N" in front of its name....

P.S. I like the Tubbs or Grady match... Breed for the best regardless of color....


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## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Hmm If we're just throwing names out there, and we were looking for chocolate; I'd cross back to the Barracuda line, some good matches have been made, going that way. Ex; Pirate (EIC clear) carries chocolate, 2 generations removed, only worry would be it would also double up on the Lean Mac side as well which might get a little hot. Still Looks like Tubb has him on both sides as well, My observation have always been a little Lean Mac goes along way. They have a bit of balance in HarleyXlottie, and Carolines smoke on the water; which should mesh up with Roux's lines; Ammo has a good portion of Way to go Rocky; and is a nice dog herself, should balance any sperm donor, that gets chosen.


Why not go directly back to the Barracuda lines with WBF'S Man On The Stand (42 Derby Points). You would be breeding cousins, Maestro is sired by FC AFC Way Da Go Call of the Wild (Drake) and Ammo's sire is FC AFC Wing Magic's Louisiana Roux (Drake & Roux are litter mates). I know my sister to Ammo will be making the short journey to south Tulsa this fall to see Maestro.


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

Bayou Magic said:


> Not surprised at all. Just curious, why would you consider these two?
> 
> fp


Honestly because they are both proven producers Dakota's Cajun Roux is the #1 current producer for the UKC and Elwood is also a proven producer as well as some of what I have heard was an excellent dog in his own right. 

What are your thoughts Bayou? I know you breed some darn good dogs too.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

bigo181979, so you take the # 1 choco female in history. #1 derby dog of all time. CNAFC. You would breed her to a hunt test dog?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mark Sehon said:


> bigo181979, so you take the # 1 choco female in history. #1 derby dog of all time. CNAFC. You would breed her to a hunt test dog?


Not that there's anything wrong with that...


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## Tyler Pugh (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't care what color she breeds to, I wish I was #1 on the puppy list though.


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

Mark Sehon said:


> bigo181979, so you take the # 1 choco female in history. #1 derby dog of all time. CNAFC. You would breed her to a hunt test dog?


Ok again were speaking hypotheticals here folks. We all know Ammo will get bred to the best stud regardless of color so the to spell it out this post is probably more applicable, in reality, to a dog that might be a sister to Ammo. 

Also again the requirements were a chocolate or a chocolate factored stud. So yes, given the parameters I posted I would breed her to those two choices. That being said I am also obviously not the most versed person in the stud book so I am asking the questions to get a better understanding. So please feel free to add something constructive if you have anything.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

FC AFC Westwinds Bold Tiger frozen semen still available to the right bitch and he was tri-factored.


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Marketing will not be a problem! But Ammo's granddamm on her mothers side was chocolate and carried yellow, so tri-factored. I don't know if Ammo's mother carries yellow, but I bet Deb knows. Should be wonderful pups. The real hypothetical is, are they keeping a pup and going to try and break mom's record 

Best of Luck Regards,

Aaron*


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Gunners Up said:


> Why not go directly back to the Barracuda lines with WBF'S Man On The Stand (42 Derby Points). You would be breeding cousins, Maestro is sired by FC AFC Way Da Go Call of the Wild (Drake) and Ammo's sire is FC AFC Wing Magic's Louisiana Roux (Drake & Roux are litter mates). I know my sister to Ammo will be making the short journey to south Tulsa this fall to see Maestro.


With Ammo I'd be looking for more of a proven stud with points-titled offspring. She was born in 2007 probably only be bred once maybe twice. Plus Way too much chocolate in such a match-up for me, needs an influx of black . Still I'll be watching this dog for my own black Roux pup later, cuz you're right there might be potential there. I also like Running with the Devil, that line crosses in nice to a lot of different pedigrees, and has been shown to produce.


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

I know one of the sisters from the same litter as Ammo is yellow factored.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

If you want a sister to Ammo, Bill and Micki have a sister to Ammo from a repeat breeding... Her name is Primo. She is a little more "amped"... So to speak, than Ammo. A very talented dog in her own right. Running her first all age stake this weekend at Michiana... So, maybe some of these hypothetical breeding ideas could have some merit one day. 

Be interesting to see how "little sister" performs. See if you can hang on for 8 seconds Bill!


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

huntinman said:


> If you want a sister to Ammo, Bill and Micki have a sister to Ammo from a repeat breeding... Her name is Primo. She is a little more "amped"... So to speak, than Ammo. A very talented dog in her own right. Running her first all age stake this weekend at Michiana... So, maybe some of these hypothetical breeding ideas could have some merit one day.
> 
> Be interesting to see how "little sister" performs. See if you can hang on for 8 seconds Bill!


I'm actually on the list for a pup out of "Maggie" SCL's Sugar Magnolia. So far Maggie has produced 2 QAA pups 1 each out of her first 2 litters and her more recent litters continue to show promise. Paul is most likely going to breed her to Nan Dool Elwood Blues. I am 1st in line for an EIC clear female assuming 2 things. The Dooly's reserved that right for overall pick of the litter as part of the breeding agreement, and Paul wants an EIC clear female for his breeding program so as long as there are 2 or more eic clear females and the Dooly's take a boy I get pick of the females. Otherwise I can take a female carrier or continue to look for a pup elsewhere. 

I have been waiting on one of maggies pups for a year now. First litter i was on the list for ended up with 12 boys, second breeding didn't take, so hopefully 3rd time will be the charm this spring lol.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

bigo181979 said:


> I'm actually on the list for a pup out of "Maggie" SCL's Sugar Magnolia. So far Maggie has produced 2 QAA pups 1 each out of her first 2 litters and her more recent litters continue to show promise. Paul is most likely going to breed her to Nan Dool Elwood Blues. I am 1st in line for an EIC clear female assuming 2 things. The Dooly's reserved that right for overall pick of the litter as part of the breeding agreement, and Paul wants an EIC clear female for his breeding program so as long as there are 2 or more eic clear females and the Dooly's take a boy I get pick of the females. Otherwise I can take a female carrier or continue to look for a pup elsewhere.
> 
> I have been waiting on one of maggies pups for a year now. First litter i was on the list for ended up with 12 boys, second breeding didn't take, so hopefully 3rd time will be the charm this spring lol.


12 males. Holy smokes!


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## bigo181979 (Dec 3, 2013)

Yeah that's what everyone said lol.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

bigo181979 said:


> So here are the restrictions:
> 
> Pups to run FT and Hunt tests
> 
> ...


Gates would be my suggestion. Fits all of your criteria.


I highly doubt any Ammo pups will be seen running HT's. They'll all go to homes that will be seeking blue ribbons, not orange ones.


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## SFLabs (Oct 21, 2007)

Aaron Homburg said:


> *Marketing will not be a problem! But Ammo's granddamm on her mothers side was chocolate and carried yellow, so tri-factored. I don't know if Ammo's mother carries yellow, but I bet Deb knows. Should be wonderful pups. The real hypothetical is, are they keeping a pup and going to try and break mom's record
> 
> Best of Luck Regards,
> 
> Aaron*


Ammo's dam Tyra/choco carries yellow also.....Tyra was bred to Roux 4 x all SAI.

Litter #1 produced 8 pups/ 4 Males/ 4 Females
Litter #2 produced 11 pups 8 Male/3 Female
Litter #3 produced 8 pups 5 males/3 females 
Litter #4 produced 9 pups 6 males/3 females. 


Ammo​


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

What a great picture of a tiny Ammo. Wolters reused quote, "From a tiny acorn, a mighty oak will grow" comes to mind.


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

stonybrook said:


> Gates would be my suggestion. Fits all of your criteria.
> 
> 
> I highly doubt any Ammo pups will be seen running HT's. They'll all go to homes that will be seeking blue ribbons, not orange ones.


I believe Gates is a EIC carrier.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

All I know is that I can't afford any Ammo pup but I hope all goes well for Bill Micki and Ammo.

Bout time ole Primo got her time to shine.


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