# Silver Labs: Why don't you go to the AKC?



## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

I still don't get it.

If, as many of you say, silver labs are not purebred, why aren't you pounding on the walls of the AKC to stop silver labs from being registered by the AKC? Why doesn't your breed club stop these registrations if the dogs are not purebred labs?

I just don't get it

Enlighten me.

J. Marti


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

what's a silver lab?


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## Norse2 (Oct 10, 2007)

It is pretty simple, the AKC and breed club largely go on an honor system. The breeder (dam and stud owner) is expected to be truthful about who the parents are of the litter that is to be registured. The AKC, UKC, or CKC does not supervise the mating of the animals to ensure the truth of parentage. Not every dog has the correct parents on their paperwork, be it by honest mistake or fraud. We as users/ members of the AKC it is our job to ensure the purity of the breeds. WE ARE THE AKC which is why many of us speak out against fraud such as "SILVER LABS."

*The original "breeders" of silvers LIED, people sometimes do that for money. * They bred a lab and a weim together and lied on the litter paperwork. Most of the current "breeders" are far remove from the original fraud but they still lie by having the buyers registure the dogs as chocolates. Seems to me that it is hard to consider person honest if one of the first things they do is tell a guy to LIE to the parent organization. 

There is no place on AKC paperwork to registure a lab as silver; only black, yellow (which can be light cream to fox red), and chocolate. The silver people claim that their dogs are diluted chocolates. I have called many breeders of chocolate labs out of the blue to ask if they have ever had a so called diluted i.e. silver lab out of their chocolate litters. The answer is always no, out of dozens of litters it has never happened. Most also add in that it is because they don't breed to weims.

To answer the question why doesn't the AKC do something about it, well the cost benefit does not make sense to the organization. It would cost a lot to shut down one breeder and it is a small percentage of fraud in a big operation. It is our job to educate people that they are getting ripped off. Some people don't care that they are getting ripped off and some don't care that they are ripping people off. It happens in every aspect of life the dogs are no different.

You can not completely stop people from being taken and you can't stop crooks from being crooks. Simply don't by a silver if you don't like being lied to and if you breed them you have to live with yourself as a dishonset person. 

As for myself, if I would see one at an AKC event I would go to the stakes chair and protest that the person is not running the right dog, because the program would say that the dog is a chocolate but the color says otherwise. 

Anything else?


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Here we go again!!!


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Pulling up a seat this time regards


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

kindakinky said:


> I still don't get it.
> 
> If, as many of you say, silver labs are not purebred, why aren't you pounding on the walls of the AKC to stop silver labs from being registered by the AKC? Why doesn't your breed club stop these registrations if the dogs are not purebred labs?
> 
> ...


The breed registry only addresses issues related to parentage. While I have read many assertions that silver labs were produced through cross breeding to Weimeraners, I have not seen any evidence of that. The breed registry does not require breeders to attest that pups meet the breed standard. Thus, I have a Patton pup with white hairs on her right foreleg. That would be a disqualifying flaw under the standard, but in no way affects her ability to be registered or her ability as a retriever.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> I still don't get it.
> 
> If, as many of you say, silver labs are not purebred, why aren't you pounding on the walls of the AKC to stop silver labs from being registered by the AKC? Why doesn't your breed club stop these registrations if the dogs are not purebred labs?
> 
> J. Marti


The AKC is merely a registry that depends on the honor system (as noted above) and it's also a club of clubs, so any action would need to be taken by the breed club, the LRC. And I believe the Lab club issued a rather strong statement that silver, gray, or any other dilute shade is not an acceptable Labrador color and it should not be registered NOR bred.

In fact, supposedly AKC did investigate one of the original breeders of Silver labs (a kennel that bred both Labs and Weims til it discovered the lucrative business of 'silver' labs). This was back in the late 1980s or early 1990s and upon receipt of a complaint. I'm not even sure DNA testing existed back then, but if it did it was limited to proving the parents (if living) were those stated on the paperwork. A DNA test back then, and I'm not even sure if now, can only prove the parentage when both parents are living and DNA tested along with their get. It can't prove that one of the parents was a half or quarter Weim and you can be sure the Lab/Weim crosses were long dead and buried on the back 40 before the AKC came calling.

It's also useful to point out that the AKC has been steadily losing money, but not expenses as registrations have been declining (along with revenues). Meanwhile new registries competing for the pet 'my dog has papers' market are springing up like weeds to serve that need. Most people don't know or care anything about their breed and its history, much less the AKC. They just want to brag that 'my dog has papers,' so enter the competing registries like the Con(artist)Kennel Club and various other pet registries all of which register anything with a pulse including designer mutts. 

Members of the fancy who are outraged at the fraud being perpetuated by Silver lab breeders are but a microscopic percentage of AKC end users. I highly doubt AKC would take ANY steps to drive its dwindling membership away. The only thing people could do would be to file a complaint questioning the parentage of every single silver Lab they came across and at this point the fraudulent Lab/Weim mixes are so far back they're not going to be discovered by DNA testing. And truthfully, most of the silver Lab owners are perfectly nice people you wouldn't want to dime out to the AKC as they innocently drank the jenkem the real crooks supplied and did nothing wrong except spend their money to buy an animal bred solely for its color.


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## Birdy (Jun 11, 2009)

AKC doesn't care as long as they get the checks in the mail, which is sad because they're going to do the same thing with mixed breeds.


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Whine about the silvers somemore... GAWD, The AKC registers Labradoodles too. It is for certain a crossing of breeds there that is a prover fact and now it is a recognized breed.

All I have seen and heard here is speculation that Silvers are crossing of breeds, nobody has shown any DNA proof that any silver is crossing. The AKC registers them as Chocolates because they don't want to enrage the purests and add silver to the breed colors.

It is said that years ago in England 2 of the big breeders bred there dogs and the bitch threw some silvers or charcols, they each kept one but agreed not to breed them again.

Don't know how true it is but that is what I read on the web.

Long story short, stop whining about it and if you don't like them don't own one, but let those that want to have them have them. 

Next topic please


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

First Sergeant said:


> Whine about the silvers somemore... GAWD, The AKC registers Labradoodles too. It is for certain a crossing of breeds there that is a prover fact and now it is a recognized breed.
> 
> All I have seen and heard here is speculation that Silvers are crossing of breeds, nobody has shown any DNA proof that any silver is crossing. The AKC registers them as Chocolates because they don't want to enrage the purests and add silver to the breed colors.
> 
> ...


The AKC does not register Laradoodles. Virtually every breed began with cross breeding and continued to permit various outcrosses before the breed was stabilized. The early development and stabilization of a breed is done under the auspices of a breed club; not the AKC. When the breed has stabilized, the breed club can apply for breed recognition to the AKC. This is an ongoing process. The Parson Russel Terrier (aka Jack Russel), was finally approved by the AKC in 2004. On its website, the AKC states the followig with regard to recognition of new breeds:

"The AKC Board of Directors has the authority to add a breed to the list of AKC-registrable breeds if, in its opinion, sufficient evidence is presented to justify such action. There are a number of factors the Board considers in making this decision, including documentation that the breed in question has been breeding true for many generations, with accurate record keeping; evidence that there is sufficient interest in the breed throughout the United States; and a national club in place that meets AKC requirements to act as the parent club for the breed."

Labradoodles would have problems meeting this standard, especially since the evidence suggests that they do not breed true. In the Austalian breeding program that initiated Labradoodle crosses, less than 35% of the resulting dogs were "hypoallergenic". 

With respect to the color silver, The Labrador Club (parent breed club for Labradors) says:

" *SILVER LABRADORS* There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors. The silver color is a disqualification under the Standard for the breed. The LRC does not recognize, accept or condone the sale or advertising of any Labrador as a silver Labrador. The Club opposes the practice of registering silver as chocolate."


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## rds7015 (May 19, 2006)

hello all, being new to the game, I wanted to know more. So I inquired about it. Here are the answers I got.



Jim-
The AKC recognizes 3 colors of labradors: Black, Chocolate and Yellow. Each of these colors has variations. If you've ever seen a white lab or a fox red lab those are the lightest and darkest version of a yellow lab. Charcoal labs are the lightest variation of Black and Silver Labs are the lightest variation of a chocolate lab. Some of them come out more chocolate than others but all of the puppies are pure silver. I can forward you the pedigree on the dam and sire if you are interested. They are both papered with AKC as chocolate labs with makings silver. The puppies have already been registered with AKC and I should have their pedigree and paper work in the next week or so. They look a little bit like rats right now but I've attached pictures of Maddie when she was a puppy so you can see what they will look like in the next few months. Comet has had DNA testing done. I actually have not had Maddie tested. 
Let me know if you have any more questions. 
Thanks,
Heather


From AKC
If the dog has an AKC dog registration application you can register the dog no matter what his color is. The papers must come from the breeder of the dog. We do not do DNA unless the dog has been registered.

If a reply is necessary, please include all previous correspondence.



Sandy

AKC Customer Service Representative

http://www.akc.org/

919-233-9767

Ok so now you know. Silver lab can be akc reg. So does this make them lab???

Good luck, ps would like to have one but not for that amount.
Jim Schaefer


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

I saw my first silver lab yesterday while walking my dog. I didn't get a chance to talk to the owner -- I just kind of stared at his dog. If I seem him again, I might ask about the dog's pedigree out of curiosity. It sure looked like a lab/weim cross to me.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

YardleyLabs said:


> With respect to the color silver, The Labrador Club (parent breed club for Labradors) says:
> 
> " *SILVER LABRADORS* There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors. The silver color is a disqualification under the Standard for the breed. The LRC does not recognize, accept or condone the sale or advertising of any Labrador as a silver Labrador. The Club opposes the practice of registering silver as chocolate."


With this statement, the Labrador Club is essentially saying the silver gene does not exist in "purebred labs" and, following the logic of the statement, is saying any "silver" lab is not purebred.

The Labrador Club is the spokesman for the most popular breed in the U.S. Why don't they just go to the AKC and ask them to issue a note with any labrador registration slip saying "Any labrador sold as or represented as being silver in color is believed not to be a purebred labrador."

Yes, one could argue the AKC is just a registry. If that is true, then why even have AKC breed standards or certain acceptable colors within a breed? Either the AKC parent clubs have input into the standards and hence the value of the AKC registry or they don't. 

Just asking....
J. Marti


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

kindakinky said:


> With this statement, the Labrador Club is essentially saying the silver gene does not exist in "purebred labs" and, following the logic of the statement, is saying any "silver" lab is not purebred.
> 
> ...


I think you've taken a giant but illogical leap. They are simply saying what the standard says: there are only three acceptable colors for Labs -- black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color is an automatic disqualification. It does not mean the dog isn't purebred, only that it doesn't conform to the standard.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

If I had a litter of pups,and they were black with white blazes,and white tips of their tails,with white feet. I could register them and mark black on the papers,and all would be well. 
The silvers are marked as chocolate on the AKC papers. 
As long as I had two registered parents listed as the parents, akc would never know the difference and I could register the whole bunch. thats how the "Silvers' get registered and recognized as AKC puppies.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39324
The RTF thread linked above is probably the most informative and, dare I say, for the most part open minded internet discussion I've seen concerning the Silver Labrador Retriever. Be sure you have a few hours though, it's a long one!


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

YardleyLabs said:


> I think you've taken a giant but illogical leap. They are simply saying what the standard says: there are only three acceptable colors for Labs -- black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color is an automatic disqualification. It does not mean the dog isn't purebred, only that it doesn't conform to the standard.


Then it's okay to breed silver labs. Many black labs bred don't conform to the standard. 

I still have a problem with The Labrador Club singling out "silver" labradors as having no genetic basis within the breed. What does that mean? Why are they singling out "silver" as having "no genetic basis". 

A black and tan lab doesn't conform to the standard but The Labrador Club doesn't mention that color as having "no genetic basis".

Not trying to be a dickhead, but it is clear The Labrador Club has singled out silvers as not having "genetic basis" but not, for instance, black and tan labs. What does that mean?

Just asking...
J. Marti


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

kindakinky said:


> Then it's okay to breed silver labs. Many black labs bred don't conform to the standard.
> 
> I still have a problem with The Labrador Club singling out "silver" labradors as having no genetic basis within the breed. What does that mean? Why are they singling out "silver" as having "no genetic basis".
> 
> ...


Because you could get a black and tan, more commonly mismarked, lab that would exhibit a color combination similar to accepted colors within the breed so there is a genetic basis. The AKC is simply saying that there is no genetic basis for the silver color to be present in Labrador Retrievers. So for the time being, and hopefully for a long time to come, if you buy a silver lab you are really buying just a real wierd shade of chocolate.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Bruce MacPherson said:


> Because you could get a black and tan, more commonly mismarked, lab that would exhibit a color combination similar to accepted colors within the breed so there is a genetic basis. The AKC is simply saying that there is no genetic basis for the silver color to be present in Labrador Retrievers. So for the time being, and hopefully for a long time to come, if you buy a silver lab you are really buying just a real wierd shade of chocolate.


I missed something in that explanation. So, because a tan-pointed Lab can have a coat that is Black or Chocolate, excepting the points, it has genetic basis in Labs?!  I guess following that line of thinking a Silver Lab with tan points would also have a genetic basis since it has acceptable (albeit mismarked) tan points. Could it be that since Silver Labradors can produce the same mismarks as BYC Labs they are actually Labs after all?








Where are the breed Nazis claiming Setter or Rottie outcross and all "Labs" with points should not be allowed registration and are all just crossbred mutts?


There appears to also be a little confusion between the differing positions of the AKC and the LRC. The LRC is now in opposition to Silvers, the AKC is still satisfied with the earlier position both the LRC and AKC held...

_"The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America _{aka LRC}. _Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers...."_

It was not until a year or so ago that the LRC decided they were somehow wrong for the last twenty plus years and they made their new "no genetic basis" statement. Funny how one minute they are purebred Labs by way of decree from the powers that be, and then they suddenly are not with the stroke of a pen....No genetic proof of the lack of genetic basis, just policy. As to the “why?”, I think Ky Moffet hit the nail on the head, (Post 216, end of the 3rd paragraph http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39324&page=22 )


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Ironman said:


> It was not until a year or so ago that the LRC decided they were somehow wrong for the last twenty plus years and they made their new "no genetic basis" statement. Funny how one minute they are purebred Labs by way of decree from the powers that be, and then they suddenly are not with the stroke of a pen....No genetic proof of the lack of genetic basis, just policy. As to the “why?”, I think Ky Moffet hit the nail on the head, (Post 216, end of the 3rd paragraph http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39324&page=22 )


Maybe it wasn't until a year ago the LRC finally saw the error of their ways.
Black yellow or chocolate those are your choices if you want to meet breed standard for the time being. The rest is just an exercise in futility.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Black and tan Labs are an automatic disqualification under the standard. Silver Labs are an automatic disqualification under the standard. If one is trying to breed dogs that conform at least relatively well to the standard, then neither dog should be bred. However, a registry only verifies that the dogs being registered are the offspring of legitimately registered dogs. When it finds, through DNA testing, that a dog has been mis-registered, all of that dog's progeny and any of their offspring are likely to lose their registrations. However, DNA is only verifiable where both parents and their offspring are tested. That almost never happens except in the case of an investigation into a complaint or a general AKC breeder inspection. That is one of the reasons that the penalities for a breeder found to have violated AKC recordkeeping requirements are so severe. It's also one of the reasons so many high volume breeders stopped registering their dogs with the AKC once the AKC stepped up its enforcement activities with respect to high volume breeders.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> Then it's okay to breed silver labs. Many black labs bred don't conform to the standard.
> 
> I still have a problem with The Labrador Club singling out "silver" labradors as having no genetic basis within the breed. What does that mean? Why are they singling out "silver" as having "no genetic basis".
> 
> ...


OK, I'll try again and leave the like/dislike thing out of it. Because anyone that knows me knows I do in fact love the silver color, but on Peakes where it has always existed and has always been an acceptable shade, though it's fallen out of favor with some in the Chesapeake Bay *Show Dog* crowd who are trying to split the breed ;-)

First of all, you simply can't trot out that tired old defense that all the breeds came from mutts and/or crosses. While true, ALL the retriever breeds have had closed registries for quite some time now. Way back when the registries were still open and breeders had a VISION of what they wanted the breed to be, certain breeds were introduced like the Norwegian Elkhound (for a thicker coat) and the Gordon Setter (better nose, longer coat) and **gasp*** even the Chesapeake was crossed with U.K. labs as recently as the 1960s. Now, the thing to remember about those infusions of other breeds and different genes is, breeders *SELECTIVELY* picked pups that retained the things they sought and *culled* the ones that had things they did not want...such as silver coat, curled tail, long hair, tan points, etc. No doubt some of the characteristics they did not want were recessive and could crop up many generations later but ethical breeders either culled these physically or culled them effectively by selling them without papers, on spay/neuter contracts or with limited reg. papers. Unethical breeders who were in it for the money sold them all even fuzzy silver coated tan pointed specimans with tails curled up over their backs like a pile of dog crap. Other unethical breeders or uneducated morons continued to breed and register them so through that chain it's possible that silver gene could continue to be present in substandard specimans. Although personally I think the weim infusion is more likely.

But I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that if you really feel the Lab club needs to recognize SILVER coat colors (or tan points, or curly tails, or piebald markings or any other characteristic you happen to love) the time to do it is NOT after you were huckstered into buying a "Fully AKC Registered" substandard speciman with disqualifying faults. And if you are the proud owner of one of those "not to standard' dogs and insist on being accorded the same respect as the to-standard colored Labs, you should go out and prove (via titles) that your dog is as good as any of its acceptably-colored brethren. Otherwise accept that you made a mistake as far as the AKC and LRC are concerned and move on to a breed that does recognize the (un-Lablike) trait you're so enamored of, such as weimeraners for silver aficionados or Rotts for those that like tan points.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Hey, Julie!

This is America! We can have whatever we want!

Why, just this morning, I was on a website that was proudly toutiing registered Chesadors. Sire was a Lab, dam was a Chessie. How's that, you say, how can it be "registered" when it's an obvious cross between Chesapeake & Lab? Why, with the North American Purebred Dog Registry, of course!

Now, if someone can just 'splain it to me, 'cause I don't get how, if their main business is registering mutts, they call themselves a "Purebred Dog Registry"? Still trying to figure that one out.

But seriously, folks! People in this country do whatever they want, so long as it is not harming others. Our culture is set up that way. So if AKC, the LRC, and the PTA for that matter, all decide to gang up on silver Lab breeders, do you really, seriously believe they wil stop breeding them?

...really?

'Cause as our Chesadors show, there are plenty of other "registries" out there who are happy to provide "papers" and thusly, one can sell one's mutts for plum prices. The best way to deal with this is to educate buyers, not go after breeders. Remember, one may dislike what someone else does with their dogs, but remember, there are those who dislike what WE do with OUR dogs. So while we may disapprove of people breeding off-spec dogs, we should defend their right to do as they please with their personal property. Otherwise, it gets us on a slippery slope.

Lisa


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

You know I get sucked into the "color" debates anytime they come up. Be it Fox Red (with in the standard as a dark yellow) or silvers which are not with in tthe standard it makes for interesting debate, spectacle once the debate gets started.....

FIRST any breeding practice that selects solely for ONE trait is bad. period end of story. the fact that people are making money doing it at a higher rate of return than the breeders that are concienciously tryin gto improve the breed pisses me off, BUT they are filling a DEMAND in what is supposed to be a supply and demand market system. The fact that they market them as anything other then a novelty disturbs me when they are bred strictly as a novelty. Don't tell someone that your "Silver" from untitled parents with no health certs is "just as good" or even better than the FC X MH litter down the road.

That being said, after getting sucked into the interesting read that was 26 pages of silver talk from this spring under "HOW much would you pay for a silver" I am no longer convinnced that they are ALL wiem crosses. UNdoubtedly once the craze hit, some people cashed in unethically, but it seemed to me that there were some pretty knowledgeable people that must have spent a great deal of time looking stuff up and some research that was done to say that it is highly possible that a SILVER can be a "purebred" (I quote because there was a lot of outcrossing for a long time before the breed was closed) freak of chance when the dilutter gene was present in the parent breeds of the labrador. Likely anytime a silver or charcoal showed up it was destroyed, or at least spayed be people taht wanted to conform to the standard. Had any parent of such offspring, and all siblings also been culled from teh breeding pool the dilluter gene would have disappeared eventually, but they weren't. So how ever rare the gene was it was there, 1-1000, maybe 1-100,000 dogs have it, thenthe odds of a silver happening are quite low until it begins being selected for. then the rate increases. Personally I would shy away from them, because they are likely being bred for single trait selection which accoutns for the goofy look that a lot of them have. Even the gentleman that has a titled silver, I would hesitate to buy a pup out of because of the lack of consitancy in the pedigree. Not to offend you or anything, but if I am going to pay a premium, I want the highest odds I can get on PERFORMANCE. And especially with the lack of titled females I'll spend my money on the performance rather then the color. Personally I think that the breed should admit that they are here and either include an "OTHER" catagory in teh standard, or not allow them to be registered. By registering them as chocalates, every "SILVER" that is registered is in a way a fraudulant registration. If that happens I am sure that there are other registries that would pick them up. Not saying I want it one way or the other, just saying that one or the other would quiet the controversy.

No to play devils advocate:

All of that aside, if single trait selection for inclusion in a breeding program is bad, then so is single trait selection for EXCLUSION. Last time I checked most if not all of us on this sight care more about performance than looks, SO If that silver with excellent hips out of good breeding has something to offer to a breeding program from a performance standpoint, and is currently registered with the AKC than it may have something to offer to improve the breed and the ELIMINATION of an individual based on one nonperformance non structural trait doesn't make the most sense either.

Look at a lot of EIC carrier stud dogs. that test has cost them A LOT of business. ONE trait is currently being very heavily selected against and removing totaly or partially some awfully talented dogs from the gene pool. IF a silver won an open, would you still be biased and say it shouldn't be bred?


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> ....And if you are the proud owner of one of those "not to standard' dogs and insist on being accorded the same respect as the to-standard colored Labs, you should go out and prove (via titles) that your dog is as good as any of its acceptably-colored brethren....


So the titled Silver that limiman12 mentioned should be respected just as any other BYC Lab?



limiman12 said:


> ....IF a silver won an open, would you still be biased and say it shouldn't be bred?


Great question! Can't wait for the replies to it.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I am going to change my hypothetical question....

New question. I am not going to use any names cause I don't want to start a rumor but imagine that it was your dream mating. 

HYPOTHETICALLy. There is a great black female (black of course becasue she is then obviously "purebred"), is chocolate factored is a tremendous marker has a great DERBY career and manages to get a FC by say four or five years old. She is bred to a lets say NAFC chocalate that really is a straight running machine. Any of her faults are his strenths and the pedigrees "match-up". A couple high profile names show up a time or two on both sides way back along with however many other FC's you want there to be. The entire litter is spoken for with a waiting list when the breeding is announced, lets just say 2500 per puppy. The owner of the female happens to be a good friend. He calls the night they are born paniced because a "silver" was born. A week later tells you that none of the buyers that had deposits in will take it. "Will you give me five hundred for it? Hate to put it down with all that potential. And it will be way to hot for an average joe"

Would you buy the puppy?



Three of the other seven go on to be great derby dogs, good chance that they will make FC. The other four very solid just not quite as spectaclular, end up as "just" great hutn test dogs. MH or the equilvalent at age 2-3. 

Would you repeat the breeding?


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Can I get one that also flies and has a super bark? Gota love the hypothetical from the upper atmostphere, no oxygen up there!


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Dismissing the question doesn't answer the question. BTW, remember I am not a "silver" fan. Cool color but if I wanted it I would rescue a weim. If I want a hunting/testing dog I want performance.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Many of the performance dogs do not measure up to the "breed standard" either, except for color....are we to exclude those dogs from being registered? Of course not. Conformation line labs do not look like the labs running in the FT or HT venue that we see today, but yet, they are what the breed standard is supposed to be...according to the AKC.

To each their own in my opinion. If someone wants a dog based solely on their color, then so be it....I have a whole list of traits that I look for before choosing a dog that fit me and my hunting style...not anyone else's needs or wants...why in the world would I do that? It's like wiping before you crap...it doesn't make any sense. If someone wants a silver lab, who are we to tell them they can't or that the dog can't be registered...if you don't like the silver lab, don't buy it...simple as that...


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> ....He calls the night they are born paniced because a "silver" was born....


Wouldn't be the first time.

I'm looking forward to the replies to this new Hypothetical questions as well....seems to have gone a little quite though....


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I am going to change my hypothetical question....
> 
> New question. I am not going to use any names cause I don't want to start a rumor but imagine that it was your dream mating.
> 
> ...


I would buy the silver,,,,do a dna test and if everthing panned out I would go into the silver lab business

Pete


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

The question doesn't bear answering. It's like the old rhymn, "If wishes were horses, then beggers would ride..." The question is nonsense, or in other words, you'd have to be on drugs the image the possibility.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I guess the problem that I personally see as a BIG reason for the "Anti-Silver" talk is the lack of health clearances.or pedigree.
Pedigrees show so much to everyone from the Field-trialer to Joe Hunter who wants a great hunting buddy. Most sites I have seen are also breeding at or near 12-18months of age.What's the rush???:-x
Sue


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## Cody Covey (Jan 29, 2008)

Sue Kiefer said:


> I guess the problem that I personally see as a BIG reason for the "Anti-Silver" talk is the lack of health clearances.or pedigree.
> Pedigrees show so much to everyone from the Field-trialer to Joe Hunter who wants a great hunting buddy. Most sites I have seen are also breeding at or near 12-18months of age.What's the rush???:-x
> Sue


money is the rush~


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## Rbyrd24 (Jun 18, 2009)

Okay, so most are saying that a silver lab is a cross between two breeds. How many of us out here have pointing labs, or pointing labs in our dog's pedigrees? We accept a pointing lab as a purebred lab, but is it not possible that somewhere long down the line in England when labs and pointers were bred in the same kennel that a lab and a pointer crossed thus creating a pointing lab? Does the fact that my dog has pointing labs throughout his pedigree make his status as purebred void? If somewhere down the line a lab and weim. were crossed and made a silver lab, when would the pups in future generations be considered purebred? If my dog has pointer in him going back a hundred years, is my dog not purebred?


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## Cody Covey (Jan 29, 2008)

couple things. It is now a closed registry. Second if you look the LRC says that pointing in labs is not desirable

From LRC 

The clear and unarguable fact is that the Labrador is a retriever, not a pointing dog. There may be a residual instinct to point in certain Labradors. That does not make the Labrador a pointing breed. It was bred for use as a retriever of game and in this country particularly, as a waterfowl retriever. There are any number of sporting breeds that excel at pointing upland game as well as flushing such game. The Labrador is not one of those breeds and should not be bred or sold to the public as a pointing breed.


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## Rbyrd24 (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm not arguing that my dog is a pointing breed. He is a retriever, what I am asking is whether or not it's possible that some labs now point because somewhere down the line a pointer was crossed with a retriever. If that is how pointing in some labs came to be, then would those labs that point or have pointing ancestors then not be considered purebred? The same for the silver lab.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

In the "Pointing Lab. " it's the aha momment or the flash pt. that was bred upon to make the "Pointing lab." what it is. I have had Goldens that have done the same thing. it's neat but not worth breeding for.(IMHPO)
To each his/her own. Whatever works for you, Whatever makes you happy. Who am I to say. I don't hunt with you. Whatever. I don't think it's worth this much discussion????
Money makes the world go round and NOT everyone hunts the same . So everyone's needs will be fulfilled somewhere along the line.Right??
Still MY biggest thing IS PLEASE DO THE NESSASARY HEALTH CLEARACES "IF" YOU ARE GOING TO BREED. PLEASE FOR PETE"S SAKE.:-x
Then at least we all know that the dog has a 50% shot at being healthy???
As far as convincing AKC???
Good Luck!!
Again IMHPO of coarse;-)
Sue


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Other than Pete's plans to start breeding Silvers, I'm surprised to see no replies to the hypothetical questions yet.... 
What if a Silver were unexpectedly sired by FC parents? 
What if a Silver won an open? 

If the dog had clearances as well, based on most of the threads on RTF I'd think most RTF'rs would not be opposed to it only because it has a funny shade of Chocolate (Silver)...would you?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ironman said:


> Other than Pete's plans to start breeding Silvers, I'm surprised to see no replies to the hypothetical questions yet....
> What if a Silver were unexpectedly sired by FC parents?
> What if a Silver won an open?


Pretty big what-ifs, considering I have yet to meet a silver/gray breeder that was in it to produce top quality *Labrador Retrievers*. But....how about one of the silver "breeders" actually stepping up to the plate and doing it? Compete? Prove they're worth considering, and not just a mismark. With the prices they're selling pups for, they should be able to afford to put a good pup on a big name truck. Show us all what a gray Lab can do. I for one don't believe the quality exists in gray Labs, because they've been bred to make money and sell, not to be good Labradors, but I'd love to be proven wrong. 

And the odds of a gray being produced by FC parents are about as good as me marrying George Clooney.

However, if a gray Lab ever gets an FC, I promise you I'll be right there applauding. Go for it. Prove us all wrong.

I've thought about this a lot, and if a gray pup were ever born here (which I highly doubt is even a remote possibility...odds are higher than me winning the lottery without buying a ticket) it would be *given away without papers*. I'm not in this for the money...I'm in it to breed high quality Labs that are good examples of the breed, and a dog that has a major disqualifying fault according to the breed standard would be culled from the gene pool instead of sold for a ridiculous price. It's what responsible breeders do. Note I said given away....not killed. The dog may make a nice gun dog....but it won't be breeding on.

And from here forward, I refuse to call 'em silver. They aren't...they're varying shades of gray. Silver is just marketing...sounds prettier than gray.  And I know I raise chocolates...but that's what AKC calls 'em on the papers. If I had my way, they'd be called brown. When AKC allows silver on the papers, I'll call 'em silver.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ironman said:


> Other than Pete's plans to start breeding Silvers, I'm surprised to see no replies to the hypothetical questions yet....
> What if a Silver were unexpectedly sired by FC parents?
> What if a Silver won an open?
> 
> If the dog had clearances as well, based on most of the threads on RTF I'd think most RTF'rs would not be opposed to it only because it has a funny shade of Chocolate (Silver)...would you?


In that hypothetical and they were basically giving the Silver away I'd take it and see how he develops in the field. I'm not caught up on this Silver Lab controversy, but we in the Golden end of things are aware that some Goldens look more "Golden" than others. Those of us that run field trials are most interested in how well the dog performs and consider good looks a bonus. I am always pleased and amused when someone points out how handsome my dog is, I like that but I like the ribbons more.

John


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I used to think it a silent curse when someone came up to me while waiting in the holding blind, leaned in a said."Boy that sure is a pretty dog.":barf::shock: Yikes!!
Crap now "Ozzie" or "Ginger" better smack that quad. ;-)
Sue


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Sharon, a well thought out reply to the hypothetical Q's, good to see. 

You are of course right that "Silver" is a descriptive term used in marketing these "gray" colored labs. Right or not, that is the status quo for the breed with other interesting names used to describe the multiple variations of Yellow and even Chocolate....which technically is what a Silver is, a light shade of Chocolate, which is technically acceptable under the breed standard. The silver phenotype is only the result of the normally colored chocolate pigment granules being dispersed in the hair shaft in a clumped and random fashion. Under a microscope, the "Silver" hair is full of Chocolate pigment and interspersed clear areas, not grey at all. I know, it's a bunch of technicalities, but until the LRC and AKC can work out a separate color designation, be it silver, non-standard , or whatever, silvers are "technically" acceptable as the lightest possible shade if chocolate in that that is exactly what they are. Having said that, I would fully expect a Judge to DQ a silver in the show ring based fully on the controversy and open hatred that many have expressed toward the Silver.

Why a Silver supporter has not put a dog on a Pro's truck? There is no doubt that many could care less about proving their dogs, or know nothing about training their dogs to any level, an utterly unfortunate situation. But, there is also a perception of a negative bias publicly displayed by some Pros. Take a look at this Forum and other like it. Have you ever seen a Pro honestly suggest or encourage a Silver owner to place their dog on his/her truck? If you have it has been after they have openly said the Silver Lab is a joke and only made the offer after some silver owner pressed them on it….not exactly the relationship anyone would want with their Pro I think, starting out with the Pro expecting failure! Even Evan Graham has said that Silver Labrador is "unworthy".


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

This silver thing is killing me . I started savin my money today and next year I'm gonna buy me one of them fancy silver labs and prove once and fer all if they are worth havin.

Please pm me if anyone wants to offer donations for my cause.

Honest regards


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

duk4me said:


> I'm gonna buy me one of them fancy silver labs and prove once and fer all if they are worth havin.
> Honest regards


You'll realize that they are worth having when you bury one.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Splash_em said:


> You'll realize that they are worth having when you bury one.


I'm hoping that was a mistype.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Buried my silver buddy Monday and haven't had a second go by yet that I haven't been thinking about him. 

No mistype. Just a bunch of misguided hate IMHO.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Splash_em said:


> Buried my silver buddy Monday and haven't had a second go by yet that I haven't been thinking about him.
> 
> No mistype. Just a bunch of misguided hate IMHO.


First and foremost I am truly sorry for your loss. It is a loss that all of us can relate to on this forum. I'm sorry that my comments offended you.

Secondly I was joking and I think that the majority of people realize that I'm not a hater.

Sorry for your loss.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

I knew I shouldn't have opened this thread when I turned on the PC. 

Really just missing my young'un right now.

No need to apologize. It is a public forum and you will never stop people from having their own opinions nor would I ever want to. 

Should be picking up a new puppy this weekend if everything goes good. Switching over to the lighter side of life. Yellow male out of GRHRCH Delta's Redline Cole and HR Babe's Sunshine Girl.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Splash 'em, I thought about you this morning when I opened the forum and saw that this thread had resurfaced. I knew it was going to be painful for you to see. But I really don't think anyone on any posts has expressed hate or hatefulness to the silver dogs. They are mostly just angry with the breeders and marketers that do not do the very basic health clearances and then charge top dollar to an unsuspecting public. That is all it is. I for one would not take part on any forum where anyone expressed hatred for a certain type of dog.

I hope your family is dealing with the loss. We have all been there. Good luck with the new pup.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

The entire quote from the Labrador Retriever Club Website:

*SILVER LABRADORS

There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors. The silver color is a disqualification under the Standard for the breed. The LRC does not recognize, accept or condone the sale or advertising of any Labrador as a silver Labrador. The Club opposes the practice of registering silver as chocolate.​*
So WHY doesn't the LRC ask the AKC to include a notation on any litter and individual puppy registration stating this opinion????????

J. Marti


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

kindakinky said:


> The entire quote from the Labrador Retriever Club Website:
> 
> *SILVER LABRADORS
> 
> ...


Honestly? Because I think despite what everyone enjoys believing, certain club members do in fact realize those silvers were purebred Labradors (and won't ever admit it) and they don't want any of those "evil" Silver breeders to be able to join the LRC...If you look at that statement that you posted by the LRC, even if a Silver breeder were to decide to actually do health clearances and perhaps run tests or trials with their dogs, they'd still not be able to join the LRC and therefor no matter if they got a FC with full health clearances, would be totally frowned upon amongst the Lab community. Basically they are saying "we hate Silver Labs and so should you".
BTW my personal opinion on Silvers is the same as the light cream found in many modern European Golden lines (it is almost white in color).. It doesn't make them a mix breed, it's not a correct color (though the GRCA accepts it as a shade of gold -so why can't the LRC accept it for what it is a dilute chocolate?) but there are a lot of other characteristics that are far more important such as health, temperment, working ability, and type. In the end, I don't see it's anything to get worked up about.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I trained a "Silver"/Choc..
I asked for pedigree (which I normally do on ALL dogs coming in for training)I like to look at what I have to work with or lack of.
In this case it was a $1250 puppy with no pedigree , no health clearances AND sent home early..........
I'd train another and another . Bring up on....................
Again I'll be asking for pedigree and most likely will find nothing but nothing paid big bucks for a fad.
That's my beef.
Not a silver hater either just do right by the breed.
Sue


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

limiman12 said:


> HYPOTHETICALLy. There is a great black female...is chocolate factored is a tremendous marker has a great DERBY career and manages to get a FC by say four or five years old. She is bred to a lets say NAFC chocalate that really is a straight running machine. Any of her faults are his strenths and the pedigrees "match-up". A couple high profile names show up a time or two on both sides way back along with however many other FC's you want there to be. The entire litter is spoken for with a waiting list when the breeding is announced, lets just say 2500 per puppy. The owner of the female happens to be a good friend. He calls the night they are born paniced because a "silver" was born. A week later tells you that none of the buyers that had deposits in will take it. "Will you give me five hundred for it? Hate to put it down with all that potential. And it will be way to hot for an average joe"
> 
> Would you buy the puppy?
> 
> ...





Ironman said:


> Wouldn't be the first time.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the replies to this new Hypothetical questions as well....seems to have gone a little quite though....


My answer to his first question is a definite maybe. I would know my friend the owner of the bitch wasn't lying and the chocolate NAFC WOULD BE DNA PROFILED because he would in all likelihood be breeding via AI and thus it would be required. So I WOULD be able to test the parentage of the puppy. So, in my case you are asking if I (a hunt tester and hunter and not a breeder) would buy a healthy puppy who could be proven to be the offspring of a NAFC x FC for $500.00. If I thought the puppy would be healthy (hips, eyes, elbows, EIC, CNM, etc.) and of good temperament and not so hot I couldn't handle it then I would buy the puppy to hunt and hunt test with, but not to breed.

The second question is a stupid question (especially since in the hypothetical the reader is the prospective puppy buyer, not the owner of either sire or dam).

Better questions would be:

Would you register the silver lab and if so with full registration or on LP?
or
Would you breed the puppy?
or
Should the owner of the dam try to sell the puppy for $5,000 instead of $2,500 because it is the SILVER get of a NAFC x FC?


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Splash_em said:


> Buried my silver buddy Monday and haven't had a second go by yet that I haven't been thinking about him.
> 
> No mistype. Just a bunch of misguided hate IMHO.



I agree with you there.

Sorry for your loss, any dog that you raise and bond with regardless of breed or color is something you cherish, like you do your kids, family and friend.

Many of the comments here remind me of why the world went to war with Germany when the Aryan race was trying to exterminate the Jews, the thought of a master and purest race or breed, anything but is inferior.

We all know what crap that turned out to be don't we


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I have one very simple question: Why would someone choose to breed gray Labs?


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> I have one very simple question: Why would someone choose to breed gray Labs?


Very simple: $$$$$$$$$

The same reason they breed labs and poodles, labs and goldens, cocker spaniels and poodles...

I think we've established that a majority of those on RTF are concerned about the silver lab issue.... the LRC does not recognize the color, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum...

but the fact remains that there are backyard breeders who sell lab puppies "from hunting stock" that were "John's dog Chopper" and "Jim's dog Blackie" who "both hunt great" that result in dogs with poor hunting ability, bad conformation, genetic diseases, etc., etc., etc......

We don't like it.. but we aren't going to stop it. All we can do is inform buyers to beware and go with reputable breeders and work ourselves to preserve the breed's integrity.

JMHO.....


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

First Sergeant said:


> Many of the comments here remind me of why the world went to war with Germany when the Aryan race was trying to exterminate the Jews, the thought of a master and purest race or breed, anything but is inferior.
> 
> We all know what crap that turned out to be don't we


This is an absurd comment and a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is trying to exterminate an extant breed of dog. We are just concerned about what we believe is the introduction of a different breed of dog (weimeraner) into the labrador retriever gene pool and the subsequent bogus marketing of the resulting pups. Heck, I would be less opposed to it if they were calling them Weimadors or something like that and selling them as designer mixed breeds than the current situation in which they are registering them as purebred labradors. All proponents of any type of purebred dog would be similarly opposed to the bastardization of the breed they love, and rightfully so.

Personally, if the AKC is going to keep allowing them to register them I wish they would create a gray category for color so we could look for them in future pedigrees and make sure our puppy doesn't have weimeraner in him.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

First Sergeant said:


> Many of the comments here remind me of why the world went to war with Germany when the Aryan race was trying to exterminate the Jews, the thought of a master and purest race or breed, anything but is inferior.


Oh, geez.... Isn't this a bit over the top?? 
We're talking about the color of a dog's coat here.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I agree with cakaiser, these are DOGS not humans. Humans have been breeding dogs on whims for things they wanted since they started owning dogs. It's not a crime to breed mutts or traits that don't conform to the breed standard. And the people that buy silver Labs, they didn't do anything wrong; they liked the looks and color and they love their dog just like anyone who gets the finest bred NFC/FC bred Lab. How many of us here could've ended up in the same boat when we bought our first dog? The first Chesapeake I bought came straight from the want ads in the Sunday Washington Post in 1981. I knew nothing about bloodlines or what made one dog better than another. In fact, we bought that Peake as a gift for my mother, who thought Goldens had been ruined by the Fords having one in the White House and making them too popular so we got her a less common breed of retriever. After that pup ate all the shoe molding off Mom's kitchen floor, she gave her back. The story of my first dog reads like a "What Not to Do" page on the breed police website 
I wonder how many people here made a bigger mistake than buying an AKC-registered silver Lab when they got their first dog?


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> I have one very simple question: Why would someone choose to breed gray Labs?


Improvement. Okay, stop laughing; here's why that is.
Gray is natures all weather, all terrain shade. For a hunting dog, you couldn't ask for anything better...unless you "only" hunt in the middle of the night with a Black...or "only" in fall cornfields with a Yellow...or in Hershey PA with a Chocolate! Seriously though, there is no better natural all purpose camouflage than gray. Hence the phrase "Shade of gray" for things that are not clearly discernible. Silver is an obvious color improvement to make a fine hunting dog that much better at being the total package hunting machine....just ask the Chessie owners here on the forum that have "Silverpeakes", I recall they have mentioned this color asset several times in the past as well.

Money is really irrelevant as it is driven by market economics of supply and demand (i.e., the buyer, not the breeder). Unless all breeders are giving away all their pups for free, it could be said that all breeders, regardless of color, are in it only for the money.
The other concerns mentioned about the present quality of most Silvers is valid...but will it ever help a silver breeder improve, or a pet owner train his dog to hunt, test, or trial if when they come to places like RTF looking for information people dish-out negative and denigrating comments about that person and/or their dog...based on rumor and bias, not really any factual knowledge?

If Lab enthusiasts really want to understand the Silver Lab and civilly discuss it, they need to get over the Weim hype propagated by the powers that be, as was mentioned by BirdNMouth and, in more depth, Ky Moffet in the last big silver thread on this forum...propaganda, something those Germans First Sergeant mentioned were actually quite good at.
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39324&page=21


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Ironman said:


> propaganda, something those Germans First Sergeant mentioned were actually quite good at.


So now all you "weim hype" people are little Joseph Goebbels in the making. :shock:
Better stay away from bunkers....

This thread just keeps getting better and better.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

> Improvement. Okay, stop laughing; here's why that is.
> Gray is natures all weather, all terrain shade. For a hunting dog, you couldn't ask for anything better...


Horse Hockey!!! Everyone knows that Goldens are the ultimate camo dog. Just try to pick them out in a thicket of cattails in the winter while duck or goose hunting. Hunting corn stalk fields for geese? No problem, lay them on the ground and they blend right in. Hunting pheasant in the prairie grass--no problemo, the birdies don't even see the big goldens until its too late. Heck half the time I can't see them in the prairie grass in winter. Then there is the long fluffy coat, after a round in the burrs and stick tights, they really blend in great!!

this thread has been most entertaining..........

*W*hat *T*he *F*luff regards,


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## Steve Eidson (Jun 28, 2009)

I thought that I heard one time that Silver labs are obtained form breeding to black littermates?? Is this true??

Steve


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

A dilute Lab can be obtained from any colored Lab as long as that Lab carries at least one recessive dilution gene (d) and is bred to another dilution gene carrying Lab. 

To be "Silver" (dilute Chocolate) both parents must also carry, or be, Chocolate. 

If the parents are Black, the pup will be what is being called "Charcoal" (dilute Black), which has been described as a cast-iron shade in phenotype. 

With parents that are Yellow, or carrying yellow, a yellow dilute pup can be the result, which will have a yellow shade that is normal looking, the dilution being indiscernible to even some of the most trained eyes. It has been suggested that historically there have been occasional dilute yellows that no one ever knew about at that time (or admitted to knowing about). Ky mentioned some of these in the other thread.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Ironman said:


> Improvement. Okay, stop laughing; here's why that is.
> Gray is natures all weather, all terrain shade. For a hunting dog, you couldn't ask for anything better...unless you "only" hunt in the middle of the night with a Black...or "only" in fall cornfields with a Yellow...or in Hershey PA with a Chocolate! Seriously though, there is no better natural all purpose camouflage than gray. Hence the phrase "Shade of gray" for things that are not clearly discernible. Silver is an obvious color improvement to make a fine hunting dog that much better at being the total package hunting machine....just ask the Chessie owners here on the forum that have "Silverpeakes", I recall they have mentioned this color asset several times in the past as well.


I do own ash Chesapeakes and I like the color of my dogs. But with as many good hunting black, yellow and chocolate Labs as already exist you'd be hard pressed to sell the need for another color for camo. Yes, my ash Peakes do blend in with their surroundings beautifully, but so do brindle and masked and tan point Chesapeakes and some hunters love them. Does that mean that brindled and tan point Labs should be acceptable, too? What about those wild 'mosaic' Labs? That's sort of a cool color, don't you think it should be bred for?

It's also important to talk about money, since you're correct, it is the driving force behind many if not most breedings.


> Money is really irrelevant as it is driven by market economics of supply and demand (i.e., the buyer, not the breeder). Unless all breeders are giving away all their pups for free, it could be said that all breeders, regardless of color, are in it only for the money.


That's the problem with breeding for a single trait now, it tends to ignore other important traits and to introduce something new in a breed, you need to CULL those that display traits you don't want. In fact that's that's why there isn't or shouldn't be a dilution gene in Labs...because it was culled out. People don't breed for improvement now, they breed for money and when it's at stake, people won't cull dogs. Even if somone with lofty intentions set out to title some silvers and breed some quality pups, you can bet they won't cull--too expensive. Even the best intentions to effectively cull by selling without papers or on on a spay/neuter contract get lost in the shuffle. There WILL be someone else with equal or lesser dogs that will sell a buyer a puppy without that restriction, so in order to make the sale...and so on.



> The other concerns mentioned about the present quality of most Silvers is valid...but will it ever help a silver breeder improve, or a pet owner train his dog to hunt, test, or trial if when they come to places like RTF looking for information people dish-out negative and denigrating comments about that person and/or their dog...based on rumor and bias, not really any factual knowledge?


Most people that are actively breeding silvers have closed their minds to what they need to do in order to justify what they've been doing. Anyone with any color or combination of dog breeds that comes here asking for advice will get some good advice and some holier than thou posts. I have Chesapeakes and I simply developed a thick skin; if you come here with anything other than a black Lab there WILL be some smartarse that disses your choice of a dog.

If you want training advice on here to make your silver or purple or brindle retriever the best it can be there's plenty of good advice here. If you end up with a spectacular dog with all its health clearances there would probably be breeders on here who'd offer you good advice, too.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I bring My dogs to work evey day. Half the time people ask if those are golden labs. That ought to be worth twice what a silver is ;-)
To get the big bucks I am prolly gonna have to shave em a bit.

The Gloden Labs are in my avatar. Derby, Q and AA placements I am rich who hoooooo


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

you guys arent tired of arguin bout these labs yet huh? maybe you should take this thing to congress, and after they figure out what they want to do with the BCS they can outlaw silver labs and all other cross bred dogs while theyre at it..........
jim


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## Cody Covey (Jan 29, 2008)

jimmyp said:


> you guys arent tired of arguin bout these labs yet huh? maybe you should take this thing to congress, and after they figure out what they want to do with the BCS they can outlaw silver labs and all other cross bred dogs while theyre at it..........
> jim


Okay??????


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ironman said:


> Improvement. Okay, stop laughing; here's why that is.
> Gray is natures all weather, all terrain shade. For a hunting dog, you couldn't ask for anything better...unless you "only" hunt in the middle of the night with a Black...or "only" in fall cornfields with a Yellow...or in Hershey PA with a Chocolate! Seriously though, there is no better natural all purpose camouflage than gray.


Which is why camo clothing always comes in gray? ;-) Birds see color better than we do.



Ironman said:


> Money is really irrelevant as it is driven by market economics of supply and demand (i.e., the buyer, not the breeder). Unless all breeders are giving away all their pups for free, it could be said that all breeders, regardless of color, are in it only for the money.


OK, let's go out on a limb and assume for a moment that 1.) gray Lab breeders are trying to improve the breed; and 2.) they aren't in it for the money. 

Wouldn't it be fair to also assume that, just like the breeders of acceptable colors, they would try to add specific, non color related traits by breeding to top quality stud dogs? If the concern is having a good quality Labrador, staying strictly within a color....especially one that is unaccepted by the majority of breeders as well as the LRC...wouldn't it make sense to breed in the hopes of getting one or two gray pups from a litter sired by a dog with some credentials other than coat color?

Fact is....while perhaps not all gray Labs have Weim in their background, some do. 
Fact also is that gray is not an acceptable color according to the breed standard, and so the breeders of gray Labs are not only thumbing their noses at the parent club and breed standard, they are also overcharging for dogs that are, in the vast majority of cases, comparable to or of lesser in quality and health testing than the $250 newspaper puppies of acceptable colors.
That makes it about money.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Tada!!!!!!!!:idea:Sue
I feel the same way about people that are useing the "Cream-colored Goldens " as $$ makers. Or better yet "White"
Good grief.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

HuntinDawg said:


> My answer to his first question is a definite maybe. I would know my friend the owner of the bitch wasn't lying and the chocolate NAFC WOULD BE DNA PROFILED because he would in all likelihood be breeding via AI and thus it would be required. So I WOULD be able to test the parentage of the puppy. So, in my case you are asking if I (a hunt tester and hunter and not a breeder) would buy a healthy puppy who could be proven to be the offspring of a NAFC x FC for $500.00. If I thought the puppy would be healthy (hips, eyes, elbows, EIC, CNM, etc.) and of good temperament and not so hot I couldn't handle it then I would buy the puppy to hunt and hunt test with, but not to breed.
> 
> The second question is a stupid question (especially since in the hypothetical the reader is the prospective puppy buyer, not the owner of either sire or dam).
> 
> ...



No such thing as stupid questions huntingdawg, just a misunderstood one, I was assumin ghtat you could transition form the buyer mentality to the breeder mentailty. 

So "SHould the friend repeat the breeding?" would have been better wording... Or would you encourage the friend to repeat it..... Semantics...


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> ...Wouldn't it be fair to also assume that, just like the breeders of acceptable colors, they would try to add specific, non color related traits by breeding to top quality stud dogs? If the concern is having a good quality Labrador, staying strictly within a color....especially one that is unaccepted by the majority of breeders as well as the LRC...wouldn't it make sense to breed in the hopes of getting one or two gray pups from a litter sired by a dog with some credentials other than coat color?


Yes that makes excellent sense, and more and more Silver Lab breeders are beginning to do just that. 
The same could be asked of all BYC lab breeders. Are they all breeding in top quality stud dogs with credentials regardless of color? Indeed many RTF'ers are, as well as many in the show world. But proportionally, I'd be bold enough to suggest that there are just as many "color specific" or poorly planned, non-health cleared pairings in the BYC world as there are in the Silver world; we're talking abut the most numerous breed in the US if not the world, over all there is only a small representation of truly responsible breeders, proportionally. 



Sharon Potter said:


> Fact is....while perhaps not all gray Labs have Weim in their background, some do.


 In that this is a "Fact", please, provide the indisputable source and evidence on which that "Fact" is based.



Sharon Potter said:


> Fact also is that gray is not an acceptable color according to the breed standard, and so the breeders of gray Labs are not only thumbing their noses at the parent club and breed standard, they are also overcharging for dogs that are, in the vast majority of cases, comparable to or of lesser in quality and health testing than the $250 newspaper puppies of acceptable colors.
> That makes it about money.


Indeed grey is not mentioned in the standard but, as was mentioned previously, these Labs are Chocolate. Their DNA is either EEbb or Eebb, just like any other chocolate. Their pigment is exactly the same as all other Chocolates as well (shades of brown). The only difference is the dispersion of the pigment. Silver is just an adjective to describe the phenotype. "Chocolate", which is what these Labs are, is acceptable from "light to dark", the "Silver" phenotype being the lightest shade of the "Chocolate" genotype.
As for the high prices; it cannot be "overcharging" if that is what the buyer of a puppy willingly pays. The buyer is the one that ultimately determines price, not the breeder. Were puppy buyers to stop paying the breeder's asking price, the asking price would come down. Basic economics. If anyone wants to gripe about prices, it's the public that needs to be griped to as the breeders are responding to their demands monetarily.


When it comes down to it, Silver breeders are just like the BYC breeders. You have your puppy mills, backyard breeders, hobby breeders, and responsible breeders, the latter being, or attempting to be, just as careful in their breedings as any other top lab breeder. They hold back litters looking for the best pup to retain in their program, they do cull, they are bringing in the best BYC lines available to them, a couple have put titles on their dogs, believe it or not even some are doing health clearances, no doubt there are a few who if they are in it for money have it all messed up because they have invested so heavily into improving their dogs, they'll be lucky to just break even.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

"Ironman" are you kidding me??
Who's putting titles on "Silver" labs. AND breeding to quality studs to "Improve" the breed???
And the "Buyer" is determining the price???
What are you smoking???
If I'm wrong , please list these responsible "Silver" breeders oh and the titled dogs
I have no beef with what anyone wants to breed. Just do the general public a "BIG Favor" and do the darn health clearances and quit blowing smoke up everyone's yoohoo. The public is very gulable(spelling).
Sue


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Indeed grey is not mentioned in the standard but, as was mentioned previously, these Labs are Chocolate. Their DNA is either EEbb or Eebb, just like any other chocolate. Their pigment is exactly the same as all other Chocolates as well (shades of brown). The only difference is the dispersion of the pigment


 
I'm no genious but if you dilute chocolate you don't get gray.

Ummm if you dilute black you get gray

I think I remember that from grammer school.



Pete


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Maybe someone already knows this,but I would bet my hat that Ironman breeds Silvers.......


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Pete said:


> I'm no genious but if you dilute chocolate you don't get gray.
> 
> Ummm if you dilute black you get gray
> 
> ...


Light, paint and genes do not all "dilute" the same. If you dilute a black gene, you get blue, and for rabbits at least, if you dilute chocolate, you get lilac, so these could be called lilac labs!


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

I saw this on Dogmania a few weeks back http://www.dogomania.com/forum/showpost.php?p=261083&postcount=23.
Granted the post focuses on the show scene, but there is a claimed movement within the Silver Lab world to improve utilizing top dogs and yes, even some titling. In my digging, most Silver breeders with CH lines do not openly advertise, though some are, Silvertone being one of the more open about their lines. Do a little web surfing on other Silver breeder pages and you'll find a couple more. 

Pete, it saddens me that in this day and age, there are still people who have no more than a few short years of formal education in this land of opportunity. In as much as the grammar schooling you received did apparently teach reading, I am sure if you were to do a little more of it on this topic (there are even several sites on the web that are very informative), you would better understand the dilution of Chocolate vs Black and how both produce shades of gray. Indeed, the "Silver" dilution does appear as a very light Chocolate in some lighting situations, you can see the brown. The color is the same as is seen in several different breeds and species that have dilute brown, being called by various names like "Fawn", "Isabela", "Ash", "Gray", "Silver" and yes, even "Lilac".


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> called by various names like "Fawn", "Isabela", "Ash", "Gray", "Silver" and yes, even "Lilac".


Oh please, are we about to get Lilac colored labs?

I think I could handle the fawn ones, I kinda like the spots.


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Sue Kiefer said:


> "Ironman" are you kidding me??
> Who's putting titles on "Silver" labs. AND breeding to quality studs to "Improve" the breed???
> And the "Buyer" is determining the price???
> What are you smoking???
> ...


WOW, CAN YOU SAY CONDESCENDING? ........ I think all here are entitled to have an opinion and express it without the attitude you displayed. But considering the narrow mindedness of many that have contributed to the thread I am not surprised to see it appear.

I think that due to the small number true silver breeders - responsible ones at that, I am sure they are out there, but considering and the bashing they take from the high and might "traditional" lab breeders, they probably keep to themselves rather than put up with the snobby and elitist attitudes that have festered their way to the surface in all the silver threads I have read in my short time on this forum. Nobody in their right mind would willingly come here to put up with the crap that is propagated. That would be like a Jew going to a Nazi rally during the rule of Hitler and saying they have a right to be heard and being naive enough to actually think it would happen.

If nothing else the attitude and snobbishness is entertaining and continues to provide me with some amusement on slow nights on the home front.


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Billie said:


> Maybe someone already knows this,but I would bet my hat that Ironman breeds Silvers.......



And so what if he does? To me if he does more power to him as long as he is holding to a standard of ethics that any good breeder would. 

I don't think he is a leper, although if his does breed them you high and mighty puritans would treat him like one and banish him to some isolated colony.


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## Bob Carlson (Mar 4, 2009)

First Sarge, I too am new here and have found RTF to be very a informative forum. I don't see this to be a puritanical or Nazi like group in any way. I think people are just fed up with the silver or grey breeders/owners promoting genetic defects or mutations on this site. Maybe a vote by all members on whether or not these silver threads are conducive to the RTF culture is in order. That would be democratic way to put an end to this, and calm your fears of a Nazi takeover. At that point the silver/grey promoters could be redirected to thier own forums! 

A quick google search found this site that will be very sympathetic to the grey/silver/champagne cause.

http://www.silverlabradorbreeders.com/

Bob


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Please stop the veiled and open insults. They cannot be tolerated on RTF.

Thanks.


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Bob Carlson said:


> First Sarge, I too am new here and have found RTF to be very a informative forum. I don't see this to be a puritanical or Nazi like group in any way. I think people are just fed up with the silver or grey breeders/owners promoting genetic defects or mutations on this site. Maybe a vote by all members on whether or not these silver threads are conducive to the RTF culture is in order. That would be democratic way to put an end to this, and calm your fears of a Nazi takeover. At that point the silver/grey promoters could be redirected to thier own forums!
> 
> A quick google search found this site that will be very sympathetic to the grey/silver/champagne cause.
> 
> ...



I have never said that there wasn't good information to be had here and don't disagree with that statement. Honestly I haven't seen anyone stating they are a silver breeder post here, which would lead to a lack of them promoting as you put it their genetic mutations or defects. It is just that attitude I elude to in my posts. Just because it isn't exactly what you guys like it is to be ridiculed, spurned and those who might like it are treated in a crappy manner. Anyone having a silver who might come here for information would surely not mention they own a silver because it would bring out the disdain you all have for the color, while they are still labs, the color sets you off much like the color black did with the KKK during the darker days in the south and in many other places.

As far as sympathetic sites, I have been to and read on many of them. Why you are giving me the link is beyond me. Could it be that you purist folk are now trying to steer those who own labs of the "accepted" colors away from here because we don't agree with the condesecion displayed in this and any other thread dealing with the color silver?

I might even believe that these threads are started by someone who doesn't like the silvers but wants to stir the pot and see what they can't dredge up for entertainment value.

I don't fear another Nazi uprising, although it sounds like many of the "true lab" owners are fearful of something they don't reallly care for becoming widely accepted. Here is a bit of news for you.... We have a black president and it looks like there is a big socialist move afoot in our country. That is a big change and something we all will have to get used to or revolt and stomp out, much like you would like to see the silvers stomped out.


By the way, the title is First Sergeant, not Sarge. If it makes it simpler for you to grasp you can just call me TOP


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## muddytwelvegauge (Apr 30, 2009)

I have no evidence to support or defile the claim of silver labradors. I just think it is strange that these diluted chocolate labs started to appear recently in comparison to the lineage of the labrador. 

My mother-in-law bought one for her friend, and it sure is cute. But cute isn't the test for true lineage. To be honest, it does have a lot of characteristics of a weim. I explained all that I read online, and she decided not to try to register it. As a matter of fact, it just got neutered. 


There is no need to argue online, just buy a chesapeake and never look back!!!!!!!!!

Josh

Muddy Twelve Gauge


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Please stop the veiled and open insults. They cannot be tolerated on RTF.
> 
> Thanks.


What veiled or open insults are we talking about. Those of the silver owners or those of those who are intolerant of the intolerant ?


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Where will this madness and tail chasing end? Moderators where are you... STOP the MADNESS


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

locked...

locked,


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