# Thoughts from the Breeder Police



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I worked for a vet years ago, here in our small, rural area. In those years with him, saw a lot of dogs, of course, many mixed breeds, lots of purebreds, including a bunch of Labs & Goldens. Lots of dysplasia and skin issues in the retrievers. There were several clients that were of the backyard breeder type, one Golden, 2 Labrador. I personally visited one of the Labrador breeders, who was later shut down by the county for many violations, all 26 of his Labs taken and re-homed, those that could be salvaged anyway. His were “AKC quality” but no real papers, even the AKC had given up on registering his Labs. He brought them in for mandatory rabies vaccines and not much else. Actual treatment cost money, cheaper to just dispose of a dog and replace it. 

The Golden breeder had lots of issues and knew it but once those pups were out the door, they didn’t return any phone calls from the buyers, who were left with crippled dogs and big vet bills. 

The other Lab breeder complained about no one local buying his pups and he’d take them up to Canada and sell them. He had started bringing in his dogs for OFA hips after giving his daughter one of his pups and that pup being severely dysplastic at 5 MONTHS of age. His daughter was irate and insisted he start doing OFA hips. One visit, one of his females had bad hips, weren’t going to pass. He was disgusted, showed up at the local shelter later with her, emaciated, said if they didn’t take her, he’d just shoot her (I’m a volunteer there, it happened). She wasn’t worth feeding since he couldn’t breed her. The final straw for me working for the vet was the day this breeder came in for his usual attempt at free treatment without actually bringing in a dog. He mentioned one of his other females had died. He was so casual about it. Said she’d had a litter okay but this last cold spell, did her in. His dogs were housed outside. It had been well below zero for several days. She was 10 years old. All I could think of was the 10 years of living outside without adequate shelter, the lack of any real care, attention, anything but being thrown some food and bred every cycle until she died, literally freezing to death. How much is a bale or two of straw, how much effort to throw into a dog house? The bare minimum standard of care, what is it worth to someone’s humanity? Not much apparently, to some people. 

To me, there is no excuse for not doing health clearances except ignorance, and that only gets one pass. I don’t care what color, what breed, do right by the dogs. I don’t care if you only want a meat dog, I don’t care if the dog never picks up a bird and hasn’t got a title in 5 generations. Do right by the dogs when it comes to their health and well-being. I don’t care if you’re too busy, don’t have the money or time. YOU are responsible, you make the decision to breed, you take accountability for what you produce. And expect to be questioned on a public forum dedicated to and run by retriever people. If you have nothing to hide, you aren’t going to be offended, you’ll just point to the clearances you did. If you aren’t working to ensure the health of what you breed, then you are part of the problem and one of the reasons “breeder” is a nasty word these days.

Some say we need to be nice, educate, well, that's fine, I'm all for helping anyone understand and I answer alot of pm's in that regard. But, we seem to be flush with those who think it is their God given right to do whatever they want however they want, that the standards shouldn't apply to them, that whine when they get an answer they don't like. They know full well the clearances they should be doing, they have excuses for not doing them. Not PC enough? Too bad. I'm sick of whiners and crybabies.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Here,here Kim!


----------



## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Kim,
You do a great job breeding and educating people on the importance of doing all the right things when it comes to breeding!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

where is the "applause" emoticon? I want to post about 100 of them.
Great post.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I've said it before, I will say it again. My hat is off to you guys that dare to breed. My respect for the responsibilities you take on, the time and education, the money spent and honest love and concern for the dogs is immeasurable. I could never do it. You suffer the sadness and pain of losing a pup or a bitch. You cry as you bury them as you laugh when you play with and raise them. If it were not for those of you doing this the right way, I would not have the magnificent dogs I have. Anyone that tries to shortcut the learning and responsibility just to play at breeding hurts a whole world of people like me who just want a good dog. The "just for funners" ruin the reputations of all breeders. Then what are we left with?


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Very good post.


----------



## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Very well put Kim!


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Well said, Kim. Bravo!

And let me add: No one...repeat NO ONE....is exempt from breeding without at least basic clearances and _*worse yet, lying about having them when they either have never been done or the dog failed*_. I don't care how rare or "special" your dogs are. If you're breeding either with no clearances, or worse yet, with dogs that, for example, have bad hips and you know they're bad but you breed anyway because you just want puppies, that makes you a puppy mill, regardless of number of dogs you have. 

Having dealt with a young dog here for training from a so-called "breeder" with a fancy website...and watching the heartbreak its owners went through* before the dog even turned two* (Hip dysplasia, two TPLO surgeries, and cataracts, any hope of hunting now over at age two...and the "breeder" refused to do anything to honor the supposed guarantee)....not to mention the dog had minimal desire to retrieve...I have no patience for irresponsible "breeders".


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

While i don't disagree with good breeding practices, I've heard the soap box about all the clearances and doing the right thing from a lot of breeders. They fall off that soap box pretty damn fast when you call them about a genetic problem with one of their puppies. I also find it interesting how people pick and choose which genetic aspects they need to cover....

/Paul


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

You best edit your post, /paul, can't use the "d" word on here.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

/Paul, I can't speak for anyone else, but I have gone out of my way and well beyond my guarantee for honest puppy owners. 

I replaced a puppy that was put down at a year and a half due to kidney failure...not covered under the guarantee...because the owner was nice enough to inform me and I want them to be happy. 

I refused to replace a puppy that swallowed a sock and while being x-rayed to see it, the vet said the puppy had bad hips, and I refused because a stomach x-ray is not a hip x-ray and my contract states that an OFA reading is required for a replacement. The owners refused to follow the contract and have actual hip x-rays done. Had they followed through on that, I'd have replaced the pup had it actually been dysplastic. 

And let's talk about the pup some guy wanted replaced because it had a "horrible skin condition" and was dirty in the kennel....oh, and he wanted it replaced with a started dog since he had been training it for a year. The photos he sent showed a dog normally blowing its coat, and extremely underweight, in filthy conditions. No vet statement was ever provided, after repeated requests from me. And then I find out that they just took the dog out back and shot it, rather than re-homing or returning it.

I can't tell you how many hours I spend on the phone/email, etc. with puppy owners, and I will always help them as long as they are honest with me.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

/paul, you also have to realize that the testing is done prior to breeding, for breeding, for the breeders information. Warranties and guarantees are offered on a strictly optional basis by the breeder and were started as a buying incentive to help promote themselves as going above and beyond other breeders. It has now become somewhat standard and expected, and yes- the breeder does get to pick and choose which disorders they want to warranty. Much like a new vehicle has a limited drive train warranty yet there are so many other parts not covered that could/may break or be defective. 

One should realize, both as a breeder and as a buyer, that the breeder cannot predict EVERY possible genetic or congenital disorder that could/may occur. Nor should they be expected to. Sometimes crap just happens. Some breeders go WAY beyond their warranties in some instances, others realize that they would be replacing every single pup they ever produce over nick picky people wanting every loose follicle and obnoxious gas covered by a warranty. They choose to just go by what they have written and the buyer has agreed to. 

Remember folks, you bought the pup from this litter. It is YOUR responsibility to research the litter, its parents, health clearances, and whether the breeder has a warranty and what exactly it does cover. You should have read and signed said warranty when you took possession on the pup, thus agreeing to the provisions in the warranty. It should NOT be within your expectation that the breeder should cover ANY other illness, injury, defect, sniffle or fart that has not been agreed to in the warranty. Should you contact the breeder if you are experiencing serious medical issues of the congenital or genetic sort? Yes. But that should be done strictly as a curtesy so that by using this knowledge, the breeder can make sound breeding decisions with that line of dogs in the future to prevent further issues. You should not be going into that conversation with your hat in one hand and your other held out looking for money.


----------



## Bob Mac (Feb 28, 2012)

Well said. No excuses. It is our responsibility. Doing the right thing is always the right thing.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

As someone who is considering becoming a breeder (and a responsible one), how can I do my best to ensure the buyer is the right person to sell to? Obviously there are questionnaires and interviews, but it sounds like that level of screening is not enough if breeders such as yourselves are still encountering bad owners. Truly, finding good buyers has to be the most challenging part of it. What has experience like yours, taught you about this aspect?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Jennifer, the bad apples are the ones that get talked about, used as examples. By and large, the majority of serious puppy buyers are earnest and want to learn and do the best they can by their dog. They've often had a "newspaper" dog that had issues and they've learned to at least ask questions for their next pup. Part of your job is educating callers, with finesse. The worst thing to do is turn them off by being snotty. I've made many friendships around the country through dogs over the years. Some buyers keep in touch frequently, others send a Christmas card, and that's a kick, seeing your pup one of the family on the Christmas card. Another part is the screening. First impressions are important, but not always accurate. Ask for references, do some checking, don't assume all "field trial/hunt test" homes actually are and don't assume they are good placements even if they run dogs either. Networking with other breeders is very important. Bottom line, go with your gut. Everyone makes mistakes, gets fooled, even the veterans. You just do the best you can and know that there will be health issues, there will be unhappy buyers, it's up to you how you deal with them. Put as much as you can in writing, make sure you and the buyer are on the same page, because communication is often the root of many issues between breeder and buyer. Breeding can be stressful, frustrating and a money pit at times, wreck your social life, but it also has its rewards that outweigh the negatives. For one thing, I've found that running a dog I've bred is more meaningful to me personally, than one I've bought elsewhere, and it's also very satisfying to see pups I've bred getting ribbons with their owners, or getting photos of a fantastic hunt. Or becoming the best buddy their kids grow up with, very cool to see pup buyers go on to have families and the pups become guardians of those babies. No, it's not all bad, not by a long shot, there are plenty of good people in the world, we just need to hear more from them.


----------



## KevinsKennels (Mar 6, 2012)

Very nice!


----------



## bigylwdog (Jun 25, 2011)

Well stated Kim. Hard to believe some of the people calling themselves breeders and treating their dogs so poorly.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks for the response, Kim. Very informative.


----------



## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> Kim,
> You do a great job breeding and educating people on the importance of doing all the right things when it comes to breeding!


Kim is breeding people? :razz:


----------



## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Clapping Clapping Clapping - Well stated Kim. The irresponsible breeders you describe are rampant in Boykin Spaniels. And when I try to educate others about known health issues I am accused of "demanding", "superiority" or "worse" which I will not repeat in public, or accused of tramping on their American rights. Many of these same high volume breeders are dumping dogs at local rescue organizations after they are breed them to death. It's certainly not a breed specific issue though.


----------



## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

kjrice said:


> Kim is breeding people? :razz:


You are BAD today LOL

Like I always say. If people were as careful when breeding humans as most breeders are in breeding their dogs, It would be a better place and not as many people running loose.


----------



## Jen Marenich (Jan 20, 2013)

Great question Jennifer Henion. I wonder the same thing, since I'd eventually like to get into breeding... we're talking years down the road though. And great response Kim, it helps put things into perspective because you hear (or have even experienced) so many horror stories of bad breeder/bad owners.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Cleo Watson said:


> You are BAD today LOL
> 
> Like I always say. If people were as careful when breeding humans as most breeders are in breeding their dogs, It would be a better place and not as many people running loose.


Don't you mean "loose people running around"?


----------



## Rick Vaughan (Sep 4, 2012)

_*Great read...I've cut and pasted Kim's comments and forwarded to people that need to hear this and aren't on this forum!*_


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> As someone who is considering becoming a breeder (and a responsible one), how can I do my best to ensure the buyer is the right person to sell to? Obviously there are questionnaires and interviews, but it sounds like that level of screening is not enough if breeders such as yourselves are still encountering bad owners. Truly, finding good buyers has to be the most challenging part of it. What has experience like yours, taught you about this aspect?


The breeder has many responsibilities.. and that includes selling their puppies to the "right person". Unfortunately, there is no 100% sure way to know that things won't turn out differently than expected. We do not breed a lot of litters. We breed field trial prospects. We have bred only two litters with a third on the way. Our first litter had an outstanding male we really really liked; we decided to keep a female and so we passed on him. The buyer who had #2 pick male chose him. This buyer came recommended by someone we knew in the trial game. The buyer was getting back into trials. He sent in a deposit long before the litter was whelped. We met him in person on pick out your puppy day. Seemed very nice, wife very nice, both were excited about their puppy. We felt confident it was a good match. I keep in contact with our puppy owners. After a month I sent an email. Email came back undeliverable. Then I wrote a letter to their address. No reply. Then I phoned. Phone number not good. It seemed like they fell off the face of the earth within 30 days of taking their puppy home. Today that puppy is now 4-1/2 years old and has never been AKC registered. Why would anyone pay $2,500 for a field trial prospect puppy and then never register it with AKC ? 

But the worst for us is, we have no idea what kind of life the puppy led after he left our home. Was he loved and cared for? I can live with the idea his potential was never realized. I can even live with the idea that for some reason he was not registered with AKC. But if he was not loved, not cared for ... as conscientious breeders who bring puppies into this world, this experience with this puppy eats at us. 

Helen 

Helen


----------



## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

When I read this, a Robert Service poem came to mind it is called Yellow

One pearly day of early May
I strolled upon the sand,
And saw, say half a mile away,
A man with gun in hand:
A dog was cowering to his will, 
As slow he sought to creep
Upon a dozen ducks so still
They seemed to be asleep.

When like a streak the dog dashed out,
The ducks flashed up in flight;
The fellow gave a savage shout
And cursed with all his might,
Then as I stood somewhat amazed
And gazed with eyes agog,
with bitter rage his gun he raised
And blazed and shot the dog.

You know how dogs can yelp with pain: 
Its blood soaked in the sand 
And yet it crawled to him again
And tried to lick his hand.
" Forgive me Lord for what I've done,"
It seemed as if it said
But once again he raised his gun:
This time he shot it - dead.

What could I do? What could I say?
'Twas such a lonely place.

Tongue tied I saw him stride away,
I never saw his face.
I should have bawled the bastard out:
A yellow dog he slew; 
But worse, he proved beyond a doubt
That - I was yellow too.


To the breed police and all others keep speaking up and out. Our dogs only deserve the best. The best health we can give them, the best care and above all the best homes. Sorry it was so long.


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Good Afternoon to All,

I would like to know the breeders police take on the definitions of backyard breeder, puppymill, and responsible breeder. 

I get the feel that if you don't do the health clearances, that a group of people deemed important---there is no way you can be a responsible breeder. No matter how good your word is to the people you sell too. I get the feel if I want a good hunting dog out of my dog and a friend of mine's dog---I am an irresponsible backyard breeder, look down on from the higher ups of the dog society.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Can-Doo, did you even read the original post on this thread? Your answers are there, and I might say offered without rudeness.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Can-Doo said:


> Good Afternoon to All,
> 
> I would like to know the breeders police take on the definitions of backyard breeder, puppymill, and responsible breeder.
> 
> I get the feel that if you don't do the health clearances, that a group of people deemed important---there is no way you can be a responsible breeder. No matter how good your word is to the people you sell too. I get the feel if I want a good hunting dog out of my dog and a friend of mine's dog---I am an irresponsible backyard breeder, look down on from the higher ups of the dog society.


.
YES, especially if you're from Missouri....


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Can-Doo said:


> Good Afternoon to All,
> 
> I would like to know the breeders police take on the definitions of backyard breeder, puppymill, and responsible breeder.
> 
> I get the feel that if you don't do the health clearances, that a group of people deemed important---there is no way you can be a responsible breeder. No matter how good your word is to the people you sell too. I get the feel if I want a good hunting dog out of my dog and a friend of mine's dog---I am an irresponsible backyard breeder, look down on from the higher ups of the dog society.


What's your excuse for not doing even the basics, hips, eyes, making sure one parent is clear of EIC/CNM? What good is your word to people who get a crippled or affected dog? Why shouldn't anyone think less than the best of someone who knows what clearances should be done and doesn't do them anyway?


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I think the responsibilities of the stud dog's owner should be added to this conversation.
I believe the stud dog owner is equally responsible for doing everything possible to produce healthy puppies. It is their responsibility to verify that the bitch has had all the necessary tests done, and has passed them, and can produce PROOF of it. It is his/her responsibility to question the owner and/or veterinarian of the bitch to confirm overall health and temperament regarding things that are not "clearanced" like allergies, longevity, and so on. They must be able to intelligently and honestly discuss their dog's strengths and especially faults. 
It is also the stud dog owner's responsibility to compare pedigrees and check COI before agreeing to the breeding. 
The stud dog owner should be equally available to answer questions and give advice to the puppy people. 
It is not just wham bam thank you ma'am, where's my check???


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Hey,

I re-read the original post of this thread and I still didn't see a definition to backyard breeder, puppymill, and responsible breeder. I also tried to find the thread that started this onslaught but was unable to find it. I was just able to read the first couple of post on it this morning before I had to go to work. I am thinking that in that thread it was defined. I will look again to see if I can find it. I would really like to find if there is a breakdown of number of dogs that puts you in a catagory. One to two litters a year--backyard breeder. Three litters to 100 a year--rsponsible breeder if you have clearances. Sell 200 dogs a year---not a puppymill if you clearances. What's the answer?

Now another question is what is wrong with people with dogs in MO?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

The definitions vary and are often used interchangeably, there is no set number for anything. Most know what we mean when we use them, one of those, you know it when you see it kinda things. Not the point of this thread though and nice avoidance of my question. What's your excuse should you choose not to do health clearances and if you're the type that doesn't want to do them, why should you care if people "look down" on you for not doing them? You want to breed by your own standards, you're free to do so.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I am not a breeder per se although in the past 45 years or so when our first litter was whelped we have had a few litters. We have also had dogs, purchased or whelped with many, many health issues, siezures, hip dysplasia, junior cataracts, and most recently EIC affected and EIC carriers. They are all heart breakers! Why wouldn't a breeder ,breed the best health possible pups with clearances? Lets see John down the road breeds Roll over Susie with Go Gettum Duke 
Because both are good huntin dogs , it's Christmas extra money would be nice and junior can learn about the birds N Bees. We don't need to have any Vet stuff done and can get $300'a piece for them .Now let that go on for a few generations, maybe keep a couple of pups then breed them. It goes on, siezures, hip dysplasia, eyes, CMN, EIC, Early aggressive cancers, bad temperaments, fear bitters, etc,etc. My definition.......


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Rainmaker,

I am sorry you thought I avoided your questions. I will attempt to answer them now. 

First, I guess I haven't completely bought into the health clearance thing--I mean couldn't that just be another way for the "responsible breeder" to raise the price of pups? You asked what made my word good, I guess that goes like this, Joe I didn't do the health clearance thing that alot of breeders are deeming neccessary on these pups but you have known me most of my life and how I treat my dogs. They eat and sleep better than my boys. I bred two dogs that I have both hunted over and been around for the last 4 yrs. If you have any problems at all---you know I will do anything to make it right.

I have had health dogs ALL my life and I ain't 40 anymore. I have raised a total of 4 litters in my life. My thoughts have always been, why make money off my good dogs. When someone wants to hunt---my phone rings. Not for me as much as my dogs. It has always made me wonder why would someone prostitute their dogs.

Would it be fair of me to say you were an unresponsible breeder because you sell your pups to people you don't even know? I won't because it is not my place. But let me just say right now that I have personally known every person who has got a pup from me. Hunted with all of them more than once.

Rainmaker, I surely appreciate you giving me permission to do what I want.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Can-Doo said:


> Hey,
> 
> Now another question is what is wrong with people with dogs in MO?


.
Well it was sort of a joke and from what you were writing I knew you wouldn't get the irony. 
Missouri is notorious for being a state with a lot of very bad puppy mills.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Ah, that argument. Well, Can Doo, you follow the same ol' party lines as the rest of them, nothing original there. Bravo.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Breck said:


> .
> Well it was sort of a joke and from what you were writing I knew you wouldn't get the irony.
> Missouri is notorious for being a state with a lot of very bad puppy mills.


Puppy FOOD mills...come on Breck,quit picking out the things you want to hear.
That's how rumors start.


----------



## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

What's so rich about all this is the same people, not including everyone, that are piling on are the same people that are breeding to "better the breed" with dogs that, lets say, don't have the greatest desire to retrieve, or maybe just barely got a passing grade on health certs.

funny how mirrors work ain't it?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

BTW, Can Doo, you're missing a real marketing opportunity here. There are buyers for those couple hundred dollar huntin' dogs, but they gotta be able to find you. Since you don't do clearances, you can't advertise on the classifieds here, but at least put your name & location on your sig line, so people can find you. Own it, man, stand up and be proud. Start your own thread even, gather the backyard breeders and bash the uppity responsible, money grubbing ones, call out OFA and CERF and the University of Minnesota and Alfort in France and Optigen and PennHip (sorry for the ones I left out, I know there are others for other breeds) for all those unnecessary health tests that were developed just to raise the price of puppies.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

So the person that breeds his/ her dog ( whether it be the sire or the dam)_ without doing the proper health clearen. is certainly not a responsible breeder, I understand this and would not buy a puppy from this "breeder" and most from this site would follow suit. But you have to remember MOST people that want a huntin dog or a pet, don't know or care about sites like this nor do they know anything about " health clearences" . You can try and educate people all you want but unless they ask or are concerned your wasting your breath, and your time.. 
Now what about the person that has a very talented dog, say a FT dog that is a FC/AFC but has not passed a portion of the required health stuff, or has some very undesirsable traits that the average person may not want there new puppy to have.. Is this dog a breedable dog?? Not in my mind but we all know it happens all the time, these litters are hush hush, not advertised but there are plenty of buyers, these people never get thrown under the buss, how come????? 

My point is what is right in someones eyes is totally wrong in anothers, are health clearences important? Yes, but the best advise I may have ever been given was to give it when it was asked for..


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Great question and those that sell the pups for $3000. and up some with no guarantees would say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We all are a little both sides of the mouth I guess, including me.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I'll disagree, Todd. The only way to educate is to post and talk and spread the word about health clearances, even argument is good, gets notice. Lots of people DO know there are at least hips and eyes and have now heard of EIC and CNM, at least Lab buyers do, and that isn't happening by people shutting up. Sure, there are cheap buyers, just like there are cheap breeders. That doesn't mean we all roll over and play dead. I prefer to fight for what I believe in, loud and long, listen or not, get offended, I don't really care anymore. As long as there are people posting, heck, bragging, about not doing clearances and their justification for not doing them, then there's an opportunity to debate and maybe someone, not likely the one already breeding without clearances, but someone reading, might get their eyes opened.


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Breck,

Thanks for clearing that up, I thank. Yeah, I know we have quite a few puppymills around. They all also say that they are responsible breeders! LOL!! And yeah you were right, I did miss the joke. I am not at all in anyway supporting their cause. I think it is terrible the way they do things.

Rainmaker, I never said I was againest the health clearance thing. I stated I don't know that I have completely bought into yet. I know people get unhealthy dogs. I also know dogs that get allergies--another added cost of owning and taking responsibilty of pups. I am not looking to argue, just state my opinion. I have no need to sell my $200 huntin' pups on here or any other site, paper, ad sheet, bulliten board, etc... I am keeping one for my 6 yr. old son. He is excited about having his first own puppy. He wants to train it just like the way his Dad does (thats me). He keeps bugging me about going to Bass Pro to get one of those funny looking whistles so he can train his pup. The guy with the stud is getting one. Ellis and his Dad, Herman, are getting one to replace the lab they got from a responsible breeder that dyed suddenly. The fourth is going to a hunting buddy of mine from college days. Yes, I had a small litter---I didn't do that right either because I didn't go to the vet to catch the just right time. So bash me on that too.

I am sorry I ruffled your feathers with my questions, I wanted to see if my definitions and yours matched. I find it sort of funny though--until I started reading on some of these forums, I thought I was a rather responsible person. I have never tried to decieved anyone on any of the dogs I've brought into this world. I have never had anyone have a dog display any of the problems you responsible breeders speak of.

Another thing I find quite amusing is I have never met an irresponsible breeder--at least to hear them explain it! They can talk some pretty fancy stuff, pedigrees, clearances, titles....best dog I ever owned came from a guy down the street that bred his bitch to Ban-Dee, a two time national titled dog. Paid a whopping $35.00 for that huntin' pup. She never owned one title other than best dang dog I ever owned. She was cool with it and so was I.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

To be fair, there have been some very high profile competitive dogs that lacked certain clearances or had certain inheritable traits but were bred anyway because of their superior performance records. Sometimes the info was shared, sometimes not.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> I'll disagree, Todd. The only way to educate is to post and talk and spread the word about health clearances, even argument is good, gets notice. Lots of people DO know there are at least hips and eyes and have now heard of EIC and CNM, at least Lab buyers do, and that isn't happening by people shutting up. Sure, there are cheap buyers, just like there are cheap breeders. That doesn't mean we all roll over and play dead. I prefer to fight for what I believe in, loud and long, listen or not, get offended, I don't really care anymore. As long as there are people posting, heck, bragging, about not doing clearances and their justification for not doing them, then there's an opportunity to debate and maybe someone, not likely the one already breeding without clearances, but someone reading, might get their eyes opened.



Kim I never said I disagree with you, just saying you can only educate the willing. What about the 2nd. and most important part of my post? The people that know better but still do it??? And don't say your not aware of it......


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Todd Caswell said:


> So the person that breeds his/ her dog ( whether it be the sire or the dam)_ without doing the proper health clearen. is certainly not a responsible breeder, I understand this and would not buy a puppy from this "breeder" and most from this site would follow suit. But you have to remember MOST people that want a huntin dog or a pet, don't know or care about sites like this nor do they know anything about " health clearences" . You can try and educate people all you want but unless they ask or are concerned your wasting your breath, and your time..
> *Now what about the person that has a very talented dog, say a FT dog that is a FC/AFC but has not passed a portion of the required health stuff, or has some very undesirsable traits that the average person may not want there new puppy to have.. Is this dog a breedable dog?? Not in my mind but we all know it happens all the time, these litters are hush hush, not advertised but there are plenty of buyers, these people never get thrown under the buss, how come????? *
> 
> My point is what is right in someones eyes is totally wrong in anothers, are health clearences important? Yes, but the best advise I may have ever been given was to give it when it was asked for..


If the litters are hush hush, how the heck does anyone but the select few know to even throw them under the bus? I'm not understanding your point. Where did I exclude anyone for breeding without clearances, where did I say it was okay to breed bad (failing OFA) hips or elbows or eyes as long as the dog was a talented FT dog? Sure, FT people do it, same as BYBers and millers do it, for different reasons, but it's done. Different caliber of buyer, they know the risk and don't care, but I fail to see where I personally said that was okay?


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Whats a Miller??? Don't believe I ever dissagreed with you or said that you thought it was ok to breed bad failing hips, elbows or eyes, was just asking your opinion on the fact that it is done by more than the BYBers. They just don't ask on a public forumn........


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Good discussion! I have a few thoughts to add.

First, I hate the term "Puppy Mill". It was created by the "anti's" and as Rainmaker pointed out, it has no set definition. However, it has a universal negative connotation. It's kind of like the anti-gunners who came up with the term "Saturday Night Special" in the 60's (like people bought a cheap gun so they could go out and snuff-out somebody for weekend entertainment). Or the term "Assault Weapon" which is currently in vogue and misused (just because it's semi-automatic and black doesn't make it _Evil). _The anti's have used the term successfully to demonize a lot of good sporting guns. But I digress (Sorry!).

My point is that I wish we dog breeders, trainers, and lovers wouldn't fall into the trap of using indefinable terms to describe breeders whose practices we don't agree with. People may some day agree that "Puppy Mills" or "Backyard Breeders" should be outlawed. And we may say "Heck Yes!" Then when the law gets made it may include YOU because you have too many dogs or breed too many litters or don't have enough space for that many dogs or who knows what the dang politicians (with the help of PETA & HSUS) may put into the law to regulate "puppymills" out of existence (and your breeding program along with them)!

I believe everyone who breeds dogs should do so to the best of their abilities. But some folks haven't had the time and experience to learn everything that many of us who have dedicated years of study may now know. Remember, we didn't start out with all of the knowledge we now have. Were your first litters as well researched as your last? Did the dogs in your first breedings have all of their health clearances? 

We all started somewhere and likely not at the top. I think CanDoo's questions were honest ones. He seems to be questioning the validity of some of the health checks, but he may be in his quest for knowledge. He didn't say they were of no use. He may honestly just want some answers. In none of the replies did I see an attempt to explain the need for each type of test and why it is important to the breed. I know that is a tall order. How about suggesting a good book on the subject to help him learn? Do you know of one? I'm not sure I could tell him of one source of information that contains everything pertaining to all of the tests that are available these days. To a beginner the search for knowledge and understanding might be a daunting task.

Rainmaker, I'm not disagreeing with your belief in the value of health clearances and breeding to produce healthy pups. Nor am I disagreeing with your stand to shout from the highest mountain to try to educate the public about their worth. 

Perhaps it might be useful to ask CanDoo a question, then maybe we can discuss the subject with more facts and less heat. 

CanDoo, what clearances do you feel are not useful? Which do you think are valid tests? What reasons do you have for your opinions?

Swack

P.S. I think Breck made a good point. Ignoring health clearances isn't just isolated to the $300 pup folks. How many "greats" of the past were bred without one health clearance or another? Does that make the folks who bred to a famous 5 time National Champion of the early 70's "backyard breeders"? Or were they "puppymills"? Or were the just irresponsible breeders? Or were they breeders who were willing to take a calculated risk in order to potentially attain a greater reward? Kind of hard to define, isn't it?


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Whats a Miller??? ..


A beer made in wisconsin.. and colorado.



Helpy helpful person regards -


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I don't do health clearances to raise the price of puppies. I do them because they give me information necessary to avoid certain health issues. I would much rather not create puppies affected by health problems that tell people that "don't worry, if there are any problems I'll make it right"...what about the pups that are affected? For me, the dogs come first. 

My question to you is why not do health clearances? 




Can-Doo said:


> Rainmaker,
> 
> I am sorry you thought I avoided your questions. I will attempt to answer them now.
> 
> ...


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> A beer made in wisconsin.. and colorado.
> 
> 
> 
> Helpy helpful person regards -



Sorry not a Miller fan to many ties with the Anti's...


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Sorry not a Miller fan ..


me either!


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Here are *my* definitions:

Backyard breeder: has a dog they love and decides to breed it to JoeBLow's dog down the street because: they love it/want their kids to experience the miracle of birth/think the female should have a litter before she is spayed. The backyard breeder often doesn't realize there is any more to breeding than this, and usually are uninformed.

Puppy mill: breeds strictly for money, regardless of the number of dogs they raise or own. They may have five dogs or they may have a hundred. Costs are kept to a bare minimum and corners are cut, health clearances are scarce or non-existant, and breed standards mean nothing. Cross-breeding or breeding for color rather than quality and advertising the "rare" color or "breed" is common.

A responsible breeder researches their breed, knows the standard and breeds to follow it rather than detract from it. They also educate themselves about recommended health clearances, follow veterinary recommendations regarding animal husbandry practices and health issues, and work with their puppy buyers to educate them as well. And they promise a home to any dog they have ever bred.


----------



## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Can-Doo said:


> Good Afternoon to All,
> 
> I would like to know the breeders police take on the definitions of backyard breeder, puppymill, and responsible breeder.
> 
> I get the feel that if you don't do the health clearances, that a group of people deemed important---there is no way you can be a responsible breeder. No matter how good your word is to the people you sell too. I get the feel if I want a good hunting dog out of my dog and a friend of mine's dog---I am an irresponsible backyard breeder, look down on from the higher ups of the dog society.


So, if I purchase one of your $300 puppies and he has bad wheels after I put $5,000 in training into him you'll make it right? Total refund or just the price of the puppy?? The purchase price will always be he cheapest part of owning any hunting or performance dog, why would I gamble on anything without clearances?


----------



## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

They still walk amongst us. I had a call today that you could have been talking about Kim. Had a 3 yo bitch who was given to the guy a couple years ago, AKC pedigreed (whatever that means), pure bred, didn't like bird feathers much at all, but was a good fishing partner. He was having a heck of a time finding a male to breed her to-- they were all "fixed" in his town.  I asked about health clearances and his vet said she was healthy, good hips, all current on her shots. Oh, so she's listed on OFA? Whaaaaaaattt's that? I think he fainted when I told him what he'd need to do for health clearances, and then what to expect in stud fees (if he found someone who would breed to his girl). Well shoot, it wasn't as though he wanted to make money --- his relatives all wanted puppies and he was just going to give them one. 

What was that Humane Society stat years ago that said one unplanned litter could result in 67,000 puppies in just 7 generations or something???? People are still tripping over health clearance costs, and yet have they priced their vet's services for anything beyond shots recently? I guess that doesn't count though since a shotgun shell is still the chosen remedy to some if the local rescue won't take it off their hands.


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Again Hello,

Don't really know where to start. First let me say thanks to those that responded in a responsible way. Raymond Little, good point. I think the way you put on $300 versas $5,000 makes sense. I am a man of my word so I will make it right though, food for thought none the less, thanks.

Swack, always a pleasure! Man you are a good dude. Thanks for getting them to quit beating me up. It is cool to see the crossover people I recognize from other forums. I know you can suggest a good book. I know your stand on health clearances and respect them as I do you.

Thanks to everyone else who rsponded responsible. I guess Todd and a few others discussed exactly what I see. The health clearance thing just counts for the byber, puppymill, and responsible breeder. Not for the guy with a great FT dog or other sorts.

I also find things funny that alot of the breeders with the British dogs, don't mention health clearances. If you question that, you get beat up also I might add.

I hate labels, I think Swack summed up my feelings on those. I am not saying that there are not people like that out there but if there are labels I have to fall into one. I bought my first high dollar lab from a responsible breeder. Paid a grand for it and drove several hundred miles to get her. I was just getting into the lab thing, always an upland man myself. Was just starting to hear about all these clearance things and asked my responsible breeder about it. Got some parentage hogwash. So one grand, no clearances. My dog Brandy is a good one though. At 4yrs. old this month, no health issues. I have become more involved with labs, love them. My wife and kids say I spend way to much time on the computer looking at them. Another thing I find rather funny is the way the responsible breeders talk about is the breed standard. Shouldn't breed just to breed need to look at breed standard---I have---have you seen the dogs that are on these responsible breeders websites? Alot of them look like greyhounds, rotts, and the list goes on. So I get a little more than irritated to hear about breed standard when I have seen some of the dogs that the responsible breeder breeds. Yeah, they will retrieve like a fire breathing dragon but so will the min-pin sitting at my feet.

When I decide a yr ago that I was going to bred Brandy, I searched for a high dollar stud to bred her too. I always joked my hunting buddy that his 50 cent dog was not going to throw anything into my high dollar hooker. But as time went on I always compared the future studs to his dog. For what I wanted, he fit the bill. I think he looks alot what a lab should look like and I love his hunt drive and manners. The only thing wrong with these two bred dogs is their trainers, us (and for you guys, their clearances).

I thought, believe that the health thing was passed down. Neither of these dogs are in bad health or displayed any of the things you guys talk about. I am gathering I am wrong though. Please explain them.

Thanks


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Can-Doo, that's some real sweet stories you tell, even threw in the classic "my little boy". Sounds just like all the others I've heard from those who don't do health clearances. "I treat my dogs better than my kids", says the one who let his bitch freeze to death, "I love my dogs." "I'm a man of my word." "I just breed for a few good huntin' dogs for me and my buddies" and on and on and on. It's the same ol', same ol'. It may be true for you, Can-Doo, who knows. Some of us have nothing to hide, not our name, not our dogs, not their pedigrees and clearances. Sure, they can be picked part for something, looks, color, size, whatever, but we put it out there to verify what we do. We put our money and our reputations where our mouths are. 

But I didn't start this thread to call out anyone in particular. It was in response in general to those who whine and cry about being picked on by the breeder police and the reason some of us feel the way we do and respond the way we do. It isn't because we don't think anyone else should breed, that we want a corner on our market, that we feel superior, that we know we are perfect. We know we aren't, we just try to do what's right for the dogs, we see & hear about the messes others make and we get sick of cleaning up after the irresponsible ones. So, get over yourselves and your persecution complexes.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Swack, I live in a state that already has a "puppy mill bill". Been in force going on 2 years now. You betcha they used the term puppy mill to get it in place and you betcha it covered every person who has more than 3 litters a year, because that's what the AR wants, breeders out of business, all breeders. We give them the ammunition when we fight among ourselves and not united against them. I'm well aware of that. Funny though, the only ones I know who protested and worked to try to at least modify the bill formed a group and were comprised of alot of what I'll call "responsible breeders", because while I dislike generalized labels too, there has to be some reference points in a general discussion. Alot of the real "puppy mills" just packed up and moved or hid themselves better. Some cleaned up their act to meet the standards of care, passed inspection and got their state license. Yippee. So, I get to pay $500 a year for the privilege of a state inspector coming to my home, because I don't have a kennel, and literally going through my home top to bottom, my bedrooms, everything, including my van, because even "transport" is covered under the bill. I passed, not one single thing, not one, not in my record keeping, not in how my dogs are housed, fed, vet records, oh, except one item on a form where we're to put the origins of the dog, I put "breeder" since it was my breeding and my name as breeder was listed on the line above, so I needed to add my name again for clarification. I have my inspection in writing and have to display in my home. As well, the state has a website now that lists breeders who are inspected, even has a nice place to report a breeder. Does a breeder bill, puppy mill bill, whatever you want to label it, change anything as far as health clearances? Nope. Nor does AKC have any say in health clearances. It's why we have to police ourselves. Before someone else does it for us.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Breck said:


> To be fair, there have been some very high profile competitive dogs that lacked certain clearances or had certain inheritable traits but were bred anyway because of their superior performance records. Sometimes the info was shared, sometimes not.


Yes, no doubt about that, always has been, always will be. They have their own argument, they know the risks and feel they are worth the breeding because of the talent. There are buyers that will agree. At that level, top of the FT pyramid, different game for a small, elite crowd in comparison to the general public, pet, hunting type owners. Not saying I would personally, not justifying it or agree with it, but, it is a reality and another aspect, another view. The ones that hide or lie about issues, different story.


----------



## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

Just remember Typhoid Mary didn't display any of the diseases symptoms and look what she managed to do. The EIC and CMN tests identify the gene and prevent potential problems in future breedings. They are not expensive to do.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> I would much rather not create puppies affected by health problems that tell people that "don't worry, if there are any problems I'll make it right".


This is my logic. Nobody likes being told they're going to hell and they are evil people if they don't do testing. I usually spell out the simplicity of the tests and relative low cost rather than belittle the person.


----------



## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

ebenezer said:


> Just remember Typhoid Mary didn't display any of the diseases symptoms and look what she managed to do. The EIC and CMN tests identify the gene and prevent potential problems in future breedings. They are not expensive to do.


I also get very sick of some breeder complaints of the costs of health screening. Basically, for an average well bred Labrador Retriever or boykin Spaniel, it is usually less than the cost of one puppy in one litter to get health screenings required for the breed. If you hear breeders complain about costs of health tests, one has to wonder if their motives for breeding are solely about profit.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Can Doo,

I am not a breeder. I own and love Goldens, a breed known gor certain health issues. I will never even look at a litter if both bitch and stud have not had, at the very least, basic health clearances.

All of my dogs have had the basics done. Hips, elbows and eyes. 1 will be getting a blood test fpr Pra/prcd. They also get a complete blood panel at 2 or 3 to use as a bench mark as they get older. My out of pocket per dog is less than $450.00. 

Any person that cares about the health of their dog should, IMO, take at least these steps. If you plan to breed or stud, you are foolish and taking an unnecessary risk,, especially with all of the tests available today at a reasonable cost, if you do not. Luck, has a way of running out. And I posted on an earlier thread ; I could care less if the dog you want to breed is an FC,JH,MH or good old hunting dog, the health clearances are a must.

And to the definintions; a back yard breeder can and should be a responsible breeder. I see no conflict.

A puppy mill is just that: no concern for anything but the bottom line.

Even a $300 pup deserves the best chance at growing up healthy.


----------



## DropinBack (Sep 24, 2012)

Breck said:


> To be fair, there have been some very high profile competitive dogs that lacked certain clearances or had certain inheritable traits but were bred anyway because of their superior performance records. Sometimes the info was shared, sometimes not.


AMEN... So True... Some of the best! Especially 10 years ago!


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Great discussion, for those that do every tests, mid of the road, or don't do health Clearances at all. It is truly a buyer beware world, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I'll not condemn the owner who breeds his hunting dog once in a lifetime, to get his next pup and produces 7-9 pups out of solid working dogs without clearances but gives an honest man's guarantee, near as much as I'd condemn a breeder who produced mulitple litters a year, does it as a business and refuses to invest in health clearances. One's for profit, one's a hobby breeding. If I'm just looking for a pet and a possible hunting dog, I'd feel much safer taking a pup out of the hobby breeding. These type of breedings is probably how the majority of us started on dogs, 6 years after purchasing my first dog from a hunting buddy, I can't say I'm disappointed, with my Hobby dog. Although she did get all of her health clearances, if you get in the sport, you get a better appreciation for health issues, you have more money and time invested in a dog, than just a hunters-meat dog or a pet and more of a need to insure that investment.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

While its easy to get all high and mighty about ones breeding practices, how many of the pompous in this thread have breed to dogs from lines of allergy problems, cryptorchidism, etc that everyone knows about but never wants to say out loud. How about breeding to known highly vocal dogs or creeping/breaking dogs. Stating that your a responsible breeder based on a few genetic tests which by the way have not eliminated any of these problems, without considering all aspects of the breeding process is in my opinion not so responsible.

/Paul


----------



## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> This is my logic. Nobody likes being told they're going to hell and they are evil people if they don't do testing. I usually spell out the simplicity of the tests and relative low cost rather than belittle the person.


Humn.. didn't see anyone in this thread saying "hell" and "evil" except you....


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> While its easy to get all high and mighty about ones breeding practices, how many of the pompous in this thread have breed to dogs from lines of allergy problems, cryptorchidism, etc that everyone knows about but never wants to say out loud. How about breeding to known highly vocal dogs or creeping/breaking dogs. Stating that your a responsible breeder based on a few genetic tests which by the way have not eliminated any of these problems, without considering all aspects of the breeding process is in my opinion not so responsible.
> 
> /Paul


Who said we aren't considering all factors? I don't breed to known allergies, I've had a few dogs with them, no thanks. It can still pop up, sure, but I don't breed dogs who have allergies. Crypts happen too, sporadically, I'm not aware of a particular stud or line that throws them these days. So Paul, tell us all who these dogs are that are so known to throw these problems so we can avoid them, pm is fine. That's how we breeders network and try to avoid the things that aren't on databases. I know who some noisy ones are, I have my list of ones I won't breed to for potential CCL problems. I've passed over a few for temperament issues. I try. As do most of the pompous ones posting on here. We can't know every detail about every dog that isn't ours, but we ask and we try. If there's an issue, we try not to repeat it, since some things can't be tested for and some nicks are just not good. Some things we just can't know unless it pops up. There's a whole lot more to breeding than paper, we know that and are not saying clearances are the only factor. But there still is no good reason not to do them, not that anyone's given me anyway, THAT was my point. There's a bunch of you that make things real personal, that post and argue against certain people because you don't like them, bully for you and your gang, you're not going to run me off like you have others.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

tell a backyard breeder they need to start testing for something is like telling a "breeder" their dog throws undersireable traits......


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Who said we aren't considering all factors? I don't breed to known allergies, I've had a few dogs with them, no thanks. It can still pop up, sure, but I don't breed dogs who have allergies. Crypts happen too, sporadically, I'm not aware of a particular stud or line that throws them these days. So Paul, tell us all who these dogs are that are so known to throw these problems so we can avoid them, pm is fine. That's how we breeders network and try to avoid the things that aren't on databases. I know who some noisy ones are, I have my list of ones I won't breed to for potential CCL problems. I've passed over a few for temperament issues. I try. As do most of the pompous ones posting on here. We can't know every detail about every dog that isn't ours, but we ask and we try. If there's an issue, we try not to repeat it, since some things can't be tested for and some nicks are just not good. Some things we just can't know unless it pops up. There's a whole lot more to breeding than paper, we know that and are not saying clearances are the only factor. But there still is no good reason not to do them, not that anyone's given me anyway, THAT was my point. There's a bunch of you that make things real personal, that post and argue against certain people because you don't like them, bully for you and your gang, you're not going to run me off like you have others.


Never said not to do the tests. However there is a lot more to consider and by your own statement, you can't know all the factors. Coming at others because they are looking at other factors, that may not match yours is where the attitude and pompous comes from. I don't hide behind anyone, nor do I have a gang that "runs people off." What i do is train dogs, run dogs, watch dogs and discuss with other trainers how these "carefully" bred dogs are doing both healthwise and performance wise. Breeders should be turning to those folks to get the best idea whats going on out there with dogs these days...

/Paul


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Hello Me Again,

Although I haven't seen the words evil or hell in the previous post, I sure have heard them repeatedly in my mind. 

I got on this thread and asked for 3 definitions. I appreciated the feedback I have recieved on them. I also HONESTLY stated my position as of now...not once have I said I am againest the health clearances. Probably will do them if I ever have another planned breeding.

I enjoy hearing other peoples perspective on matters. Never to old to learn. 

Rainmaker, I get it! You are adament about the health clearances. You might not have started this thread to call anyone out but you sure have. If I tell you what I think or feel you bash me on everything I print. I don't see where I have belittled you in anyway. I have tried to explain myself and you just start throwing comments around about sweet little story, put your name out there, same ol', sameol', etc... I cannot discuss or get anything from you because of your attitude towards me. I will leave you with this thought, I am a hunter and I know alot of people that hunt and ask where to get good dogs--where do you think you are on my list of potential places to get a good dog? I am sure that doesn't hurt your feelings or thriving dog business. I have lost alot of faith in responsible dog breeders because of the statements you have made, THANK YOU! I came with questions and recieved bashing from you.

Again, I will ask, aren't the health clearances that you guys test for hereditary? Wouldn't they show up in the older dogs?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

/Paul, the kind of breeder I'm talking about doesn't look at other factors, that's the whole point, they don't care what they produce, they just throw some dogs together because that's what they have. They have no valid reason for not doing a couple of tests to ensure they aren't producing EIC or CNM affected dogs. No, OFA and PennHip aren't a guarantee, but it's a start and it's an effort.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

NO, not necessarily. Hips can be a disaster and never take a lame step. EIC, PRA and CNM are dna tests to show your dogs status, so you don't breed carrier or affected to another carrier or affected to produce affected. Clearances are so you reduce the risk of producing a dog with a health issue


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Again, I will ask, aren't the health clearances that you guys test for hereditary? Wouldn't they show up in the older dogs?


Some yes, some no. For instance, you would never know if your dog or bitch was a CNM or EIC carrier without checking. There is (last I heard anyway) a gene that one copy caused geographic retinal dysplasia but two copies caused blind dwarves. You wouldn't know about mild cases of retinal dysplasia unless you cerfed your dog. 

Mild hip or elbow dysplasia might not show up until the dog is old. I'd like to know about that before I made a breeding decision when the dog was in his prime.

There's probably other things that show up on an x-ray or exam of some kind that does not show up until the dog is very old or not at all.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Can-Doo said:


> Hello Me Again,
> 
> Although I haven't seen the words evil or hell in the previous post, I sure have heard them repeatedly in my mind.
> 
> ...


Can-Doo/Jim Dooley, by your own previous posts, you say you've lurked here for 3 years. There have been many, many discussions of health issues, including EIC, CNM, PRA, there are even stickies for two of those right now. By your previous posts and your posts on another forum, I really didn't think you were wanting health information nor did I take your questions seriously, put as they were with your digs at responsible breeders prostituting their dogs, as you phrased it. Your female that's the dam of your current litter is second generation Craighorn Bracken, the litter is 3rd generation Lobuff's Bare Neccesities (bench pedigree), you talk about spending hours online researching, so pardon me for not taking your questions seriously, I really and truly didn't think they were actual questions to which you wanted answers.


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Can-Doo I think the problem I'm having with your posts are I don't feel your being honest about why your breeding dogs. You say your just selling them cheap to friends that are looking for hunting dogs and that your dog is the first lab you've owned and she's just turning 4 and you've had 4 litters. That's a lot of puppies so you must have a lot of friends that hunt and if she's your only dog then that's a lot of litters for a dog that's just turning 4. I was also wondering why you've just started joining all these lab and retriever training sites and you don't seem to be that interested in the training threads but post on anything that has to do with breeding. Are you trying to legitimize yourself so that you can find dogs to breed to because on another site you are talking about wanting to breed a couple of your dogs to dogs out of show lines. It sounds like to me your into breeding dogs for the money and I don't care if your having 1 litter or 100 if you don't do health clearances your irresponsible. I'm not worried about the buyer loosing money on a sick dog I'm concerned about a dog that might end up with a debilitating disease or suffer from bad hips or elbows it's not fair to them to put them through that pain so someone can make money off of them. If someone can't be honest on here how honest are they going to be about selling a pup.


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Rainmaker/Kim,

Thank you for that! My questions are real. There seems to be a divide of outlooks. Looks like you did some research too! LOL!! Yes, my name is Jim Dooley and I do post on two other forums. I am trying to gather information---HONESTLY! I have read the stickys on this site---I also got my dame from a British breeder. I mentioned in another post that it doesn't seem like they are to interested in the clearance thing. I don't say that to start a debate there, it is just a fact.

Yes, most of the people I read online believe in the health clearance thing---I am coming around. I don't believe all of you to be wrong. Just want to make my own decision. Never heard about all these test until a few yrs. ago. I guess I am in the backyard breeder catagory and it pains me to say that. I think, and most of the people who know me, as a responsible person, son, dad, husband, co-worker, and dog owner. I don't breed dogs for profit, fun or any other reason. Yes, I question the validity of any responsible dog breeder---there is alot of marketing going on these days. I don't think all the stray dogs are bought from just byb'ers and puppymills. I think there just might be a dog or two in the shelter that came from a responsible breeder.

I see where you got into dogs in '98. I have been around hunting dogs literally all my life and ,as much as it also pains me, I am 51 yrs old now. We never had any of these test that you guys had now. Yes, I have questions about them. No, I am not going to jump on the bandwagon because some deem them a neccessity. 

I want to learn and discuss not be bashed--thats it. I am sorry my litter doesn't meet your approval. I didn't breed just twwo dogs. I bred two good working labs. I really, really like the sire. Looks like a lab, has drive, good manners, trainable, quiet in blind, one heck of a nose, the list goes on. My pups all have homes to go to, to people I personally know and respect. My pups are getting out of the wading pool (in our dining room)right now and peeing on my wife's floor. That to say, I take care of my pups and they won't freeze. I have a kennel panels set up in the garage so my pups will be moved there in the next couple of days. They hae an igloo doghouse with straw already in it waiting. This might not be your ideal breeding or practices but I am proud to have these pups. I believe which eer pup my son, J.D. picks will be a good one and will make him proud in the field.


----------



## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

I respect those that try to do right by all the breeds and test. I also see the difference in a puppy mill and a hunter with his line of "great dogs" that they wants to continue with. I just have to wonder in today's world, are we so sure what we do is not going to bite us 20 or 30 years down the road. If we admit it or not we use these test to weed out these awful problems . I ask who among us know what else we are doing? It seems like everyone wants to put all the eggs in one basket with all the test. What about 10 years from now when they say my bad, that test only showed part of the problem.We can't go back and breed to those great dogs that we culled due to a test result. Very much for testing just not sure it is all that, some things seem simpler then they may be. Time will tell if we were responsible or not.Good luck to all that continue to breed on both sides of this argument and good health to all the dogs.
P.S. I have never breed a retriever have always found what I wanted in others but have breed beagles for forty years and don't claim to be responsible or irresponsible.


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Scott,

Know your name also from another forum. Sorry if I didn't communicate it right--I can see how I mislead you. This is my first litter out of my 4 yr. old Brandy. The other litters I was talking about was out of my old Brittany's. I had 2 litters out of Belle and 1 litter out of Lady. That was back in the '80's. I owned both dames and sire. Belle was my first dog. Best dang hunting dog I probably will ever own. I wanted to keep her line going for me. Most of my pups back then went to a pheasant farm not far from here named Blue Creek. The guy that owned Blue Creek was the son of a professional baseball player. Alot of the players and former players came there to hunt. Many bought my dogs. I never got rich off them. I like the fact that I have good dogs and I am quite selfish about breeding them so everyone has one. I don't know or remember saying anything about breeding a couple of my dogs to a show bred lab. Especially since I only own 1 female lab. I have got interested in some of the CH/MH type dogs. I think why not have a dual champ again, ain't that what it is really all about? Maybe you can tell me where I made that post and I can look at it and try to explain it.

Yes, right now you have read alot of my post on the breeding of dogs. I don't respond or post that much to the training of dogs because just like breeding, I know just about enough to be dangerious! Brandy was trained by me---she by no way has reached her potential because of me. She does pretty good though. I am proud of her. I have learned alot through this dog. I hope I, and my son, can do his dog justice. I 've learned alot, and trust me, in about 5 wks. you guys will want to bash on me for all the questions I will be asking about training.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Can-Doo said:


> Rainmaker/Kim,
> 
> Thank you for that! My questions are real. There seems to be a divide of outlooks. Looks like you did some research too! LOL!! Yes, my name is Jim Dooley and I do post on two other forums. I am trying to gather information---HONESTLY! I have read the stickys on this site---I also got my dame from a British breeder. I mentioned in another post that it doesn't seem like they are to interested in the clearance thing. I don't say that to start a debate there, it is just a fact.
> 
> ...


Seems to be an honest answer to me, do I agree with how you do things? For the most part no, but there are alot of people just like you that may not know any different and believe they are doing the best they can producing gundog/companions. I have a really close wealthy business man friend that bought a 250.00 puppy this week, he's wasn't looking for a top end breeding, dog will most likely never know anything other than SIT, and "lets go to bed" But it will be well cared for. The highest priced litter advertised here is chump change to this guy but he wasn't interested, just wanted a dog that will pick up a few ducks a year and live in the house with the kids. Right wrong ?? I don't know, kids are happy with the new puppy and he seems to be a well rounded puppy so far, I at least talked him into a black dog this time

Bottom line it's about standards, health and performance, some people have to have ALL clearences, some may only need the major ones, some may not feel the need for any, same goes for performance, to some anything less than a FC isn't worthy of breeding, some a JH is the dividing line and to some a seasoned duck dog that can do the work is worthy. Were all different, there is no perfect breeding, and there are no breeding police, as far as I know........


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Can-Doo, you came onto a thread with a title containing "breeding police", you make your first post asking for definitions of puppy mill, backyard breeder, etc, which I answered for myself and later others provided theirs. Your second paragraph in that post was rather inflammatory on a thread like this: 

_"I would like to know the breeders police take on the definitions of backyard breeder, puppymill, and responsible breeder. 

I get the feel that if you don't do the health clearances, that a group of people deemed important---there is no way you can be a responsible breeder. No matter how good your word is to the people you sell too. I get the feel if I want a good hunting dog out of my dog and a friend of mine's dog---I am an irresponsible backyard breeder, look down on from the higher ups of the dog society. "_

I then asked you why you wouldn't do health clearances, which you didn't answer in your next post, you only asked for more specifics regarding the definitions again. So, I asked you again why you wouldn't do clearances, which you then answered with: 

_"I am sorry you thought I avoided your questions. I will attempt to answer them now. 

*First, I guess I haven't completely bought into the health clearance thing--I mean couldn't that just be another way for the "responsible breeder" to raise the price of pups*? You asked what made my word good, I guess that goes like this, Joe I didn't do the health clearance thing that alot of breeders are deeming neccessary on these pups but you have known me most of my life and how I treat my dogs. They eat and sleep better than my boys. I bred two dogs that I have both hunted over and been around for the last 4 yrs. If you have any problems at all---you know I will do anything to make it right.

I have had health dogs ALL my life and I ain't 40 anymore. I have raised a total of 4 litters in my life. My thoughts have always been, why make money off my good dogs. When someone wants to hunt---my phone rings. Not for me as much as my dogs. *It has always made me wonder why would someone prostitute their dogs.* 
*Would it be fair of me to say you were an unresponsible breeder because you sell your pups to people you don't even know?* I won't because it is not my place. But let me just say right now that I have personally known every person who has got a pup from me. Hunted with all of them more than once.

Rainmaker, I surely appreciate you giving me permission to do what I want. "_

And you expected me to not consider at least some of that as purposely starting an argument, not to say doing some bashing and belittling of your own? Then you post this next bunch and I'm supposed to take the last "question" seriously? You claim to be beaten up, but I do think you were intentionally baiting.

_"Again Hello,

Don't really know where to start. First let me say thanks to those that responded in a responsible way. Raymond Little, good point. I think the way you put on $300 versas $5,000 makes sense. I am a man of my word so I will make it right though, food for thought none the less, thanks.

Swack, always a pleasure! Man you are a good dude. Thanks for getting them to quit beating me up. It is cool to see the crossover people I recognize from other forums. I know you can suggest a good book. I know your stand on health clearances and respect them as I do you.

Thanks to everyone else who rsponded responsible. I guess Todd and a few others discussed exactly what I see. The health clearance thing just counts for the byber, puppymill, and responsible breeder. Not for the guy with a great FT dog or other sorts.

I also find things funny that alot of the breeders with the British dogs, don't mention health clearances. If you question that, you get beat up also I might add.

I hate labels, I think Swack summed up my feelings on those. I am not saying that there are not people like that out there but if there are labels I have to fall into one. I bought my first high dollar lab from a responsible breeder. Paid a grand for it and drove several hundred miles to get her. I was just getting into the lab thing, always an upland man myself. Was just starting to hear about all these clearance things and asked my responsible breeder about it. Got some parentage hogwash. So one grand, no clearances. My dog Brandy is a good one though. At 4yrs. old this month, no health issues. I have become more involved with labs, love them. My wife and kids say I spend way to much time on the computer looking at them. Another thing I find rather funny is the way the responsible breeders talk about is the breed standard. Shouldn't breed just to breed need to look at breed standard---I have---have you seen the dogs that are on these responsible breeders websites? Alot of them look like greyhounds, rotts, and the list goes on. So I get a little more than irritated to hear about breed standard when I have seen some of the dogs that the responsible breeder breeds. Yeah, they will retrieve like a fire breathing dragon but so will the min-pin sitting at my feet.

When I decide a yr ago that I was going to bred Brandy, I searched for a high dollar stud to bred her too. I always joked my hunting buddy that his 50 cent dog was not going to throw anything into my high dollar hooker. But as time went on I always compared the future studs to his dog. For what I wanted, he fit the bill. I think he looks alot what a lab should look like and I love his hunt drive and manners. The only thing wrong with these two bred dogs is their trainers, us (and for you guys, their clearances).

I thought, believe that the health thing was passed down. Neither of these dogs are in bad health or displayed any of the things you guys talk about. I am gathering I am wrong though. Please explain them.

Thanks "_

Yes, Jim/Can-Doo, I do my research and homework, so I can try to avoid breeding bad and selling to bad. I've heard alot of stories with similar themes, like there's some kind of handbook with a script, right down to the "I'll never buy from you or your kind or refer any of my huntin' buddies either", after the protests of being bashed and claims of innocence and do-rights, of course. Sorry if it gives offense. You've had your taste and expressed your opinion of what you call "responsible" breeders, I started this thread to express my opinion, which you could have avoided entirely had you wanted, even started a thread of your own asking what you wanted to know. But, you chose to engage and then profess being bashed and belittled. Sorry if I am skeptical, backyard breeders have made me that way.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

CanDoo I would strongly suggest doing Optigen testing for PRA. PRA IS HEAVILY IN SHOW BRED DOGS. I have produced a blind dog (at 7 yrs old), that broke my own heart. The dog I bred to was supposed to be clear, so I did not test my bitch. The stud dogs test was wrong and I produced my own pick of the litter who is now totally blind and living with a great owner in NC.


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Bridget,

Would you get that test on the parents or the pups? The pups are a little over 3 wks old? Can just any vet do it or do you need to go somewhere special?

Look Kim, maybe I am crossing over! I can appreciate your stand but dang your a tough one to deal with!


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Can-Doo said:


> Bridget,
> 
> Would you get that test on the parents or the pups? The pups are a little over 3 wks old? Can just any vet do it or do you need to go somewhere special?
> 
> Look Kim, maybe I am crossing over! I can appreciate your stand but dang your a tough one to deal with!


LOL, good thing you have a sense of humor and thick skin, because it gets pretty passionate around here. I would ditto the suggestion on the PRA because you also have UK bloodlines, and that isn't a slam. www.optigen.com is the only one does PRA, there's a sticky at the top of the forum with the others, along with one about EIC. Only one parent needs to be clear of anything to avoid producing affecteds, so I guess that's where I'd start, one parent and if clear, no problem, if carrier, test other parent. If you got real bad luck and both parents carriers, then test the puppies. PRA isn't cheap test either, unlike EIC and CNM, though there are clinics and sales with discounts.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

It is a blood test sent to Optigen, your vet can pull and ship the blood. http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_prcd_pra.html I don't know your pedigree or what lines you have mixed, so maybe start with your stud dog, if he is clear you are good and don't necessarily have to spend the money on the bitch, UNLESS you plan on breeding out to someone else. IF he is a carrier or affected you need to test the bitch. It is not an inexpensive test...


Can-Doo said:


> Bridget,
> 
> Would you get that test on the parents or the pups? The pups are a little over 3 wks old? Can just any vet do it or do you need to go somewhere special?
> 
> Look Kim, maybe I am crossing over! I can appreciate your stand but dang your a tough one to deal with!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

You swab mouth cells and save a vet visit. $195 test.


----------



## Patti Benton (Jan 6, 2003)

I just had a litter, but long before I was looking for the stud I did PRA, CNM, EIC, Hips, Elbows, Cerf and Cardiac. I wanted to do all I could before I started looking for that stud. As it turned out Emma is a EIC and CNM carrier, but all other tests were normal/clear/good, so that told me what I had too look for. We kept a little female and yes she will be tested too. I know all the people the puppies went to or I know people who have sold them puppies before. All are going to good homes.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Craighorn Bracken was a PRA carrier. I have a Bracken PRA carrier daughter. Would/have I bred her? Yep. But only to a tested clear. Her litter of 4 pups, of which I initially kept back two, and both came back as carriers as well. 

Would I bred her to an untested dog? NEVER! Especially to an untested Bench bred dog, where PRA is prevalent.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Can-Doo, I wouldn't be to worried about "just breeding gun dogs." Based on the pedigree's i'm seeing on some of the breeders in this thread, so are they. Finding an FC a generation back and breeding a JH to his SH son is not focusing on anything but gun dogs. What purpose the dogs have shouldn't stop you from getting the best possible healthy dog out there regardless of purpose. However i'm pretty used to seeing pot bellied pigs with more smarts, drive and talent that end up getting at least a JH. Good health, best talent best match of traits should be minimum on someones mind....

/Paul


----------



## Tim Mc (Mar 1, 2013)

My Brother bred his black male to his black female on her second heat cycle. She was from a breeder here in Ohio that has been around quite a few years. 
Brother kinda scoffed at me when I asked if he was going to do health clearances before he bred them. His male was ten years old and in great shape, never a health problem, and the female looked sound. 
Nine beautiful puppies, all placed with happy owners . He kept one male for himself. Six months later he called me and said his female (the pups mother) had collapsed after chasing fun bumpers . He thought heat exhaustion.
She collapsed again hunting pheasants in early October. I was there this time.
She now lives with my daughter and has a great life as a pet. I take her out daily to exercise with my male, she even hunts some in cold weather.
I have to be careful though, U of Minnesota confirmed, EIC affected.
Mother of nine. A crying shame that could have and should have been avoided with one simple, inexpensive test. Yeah, health clearances are pretty important.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Tim Mc said:


> My Brother bred his black male to his black female on her second heat cycle. She was from a breeder here in Ohio that has been around quite a few years.
> Brother kinda scoffed at me when I asked if he was going to do health clearances before he bred them. His male was ten years old and in great shape, never a health problem, and the female looked sound.
> Nine beautiful puppies, all placed with happy owners . He kept one male for himself. Six months later he called me and said his female (the pups mother) had collapsed after chasing fun bumpers . He thought heat exhaustion.
> She collapsed again hunting pheasants in early October. I was there this time.
> ...


A guy on a local forum I frequent had the same thing happen. I suggested he test his dog for EIC. He was ready to do it and the breeder talked him out of getting the test. Said it was just because he hadn't conditioned his dog. The guy has sold a few more litters through the website because he's an avid hunter and folks are impressed by the pictures of his successful duck hunts. You can only shake your head so many times before you get dizzy.


----------



## Sophie Gundog (Apr 28, 2010)

Kim as a infrequent poster , I was touched by your post, most of the time it is training , hunting , and testing, the RTF is a nice breeze by , you stopped me and made me think, if your post effects one person and their decision I thank you


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Can-Doo, I wouldn't be to worried about "just breeding gun dogs." Based on the pedigree's i'm seeing on some of the breeders in this thread, so are they. Finding an FC a generation back and breeding a JH to his SH son is not focusing on anything but gun dogs. What purpose the dogs have shouldn't stop you from getting the best possible healthy dog out there regardless of purpose. However i'm pretty used to seeing pot bellied pigs with more smarts, drive and talent that end up getting at least a JH. Good health, best talent best match of traits should be minimum on someones mind....
> 
> /Paul


Nobody but you is making it about breeding "just gundogs". There is nothing wrong and alot of good in alot of "just gundogs". I made it perfectly clear, several times, I don't care what the purpose is, just a meat dog, just a pet, don't care about the pedigree, don't care if it is UK or silver or bench or a doodle, just do right by the dogs, do the best you can not to produce crippling health issues. I understand you want perfectly talented, biddable, smart, eager but not too high dogs to train, to make your life easier, but that isn't the point of this particular thread.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Tim Mc said:


> My Brother bred his black male to his black female on her second heat cycle. She was from a breeder here in Ohio that has been around quite a few years.
> Brother kinda scoffed at me when I asked if he was going to do health clearances before he bred them. His male was ten years old and in great shape, never a health problem, and the female looked sound.
> Nine beautiful puppies, all placed with happy owners . He kept one male for himself. Six months later he called me and said his female (the pups mother) had collapsed after chasing fun bumpers . He thought heat exhaustion.
> She collapsed again hunting pheasants in early October. I was there this time.
> ...


That is exactly my point. Everything looks fine and dandy on the surface, no problem. Until the stars cross and it isn't. Less than $100 and a few minutes of time, to swab a dog, make sure one parent is clear of a genetic condition like EIC or CNM and avoid affecteds. I only wish hips and elbows were so simple.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> While its easy to get all high and mighty about ones breeding practices, how many of the pompous in this thread have breed to dogs from lines of allergy problems, cryptorchidism, etc that everyone knows about but never wants to say out loud. How about breeding to known highly vocal dogs or creeping/breaking dogs. Stating that your a responsible breeder based on a few genetic tests which by the way have not eliminated any of these problems, without considering all aspects of the breeding process is in my opinion not so responsible.
> 
> /Paul


You read my mind.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Patti Benton said:


> I just had a litter, but long before I was looking for the stud I did PRA, CNM, EIC, Hips, Elbows, Cerf and Cardiac. I wanted to do all I could before I started looking for that stud. As it turned out Emma is a EIC and CNM carrier, but all other tests were normal/clear/good, so that told me what I had too look for. We kept a little female and yes she will be tested too. I know all the people the puppies went to or I know people who have sold them puppies before. All are going to good homes.


Now, now, Patti, you must not be pompous. It will offend and enrage those who are so humble and helpful, you know, the ones that have sooooooo much to contribute. Most, even Can-Doo, are keeping on track about health clearances, not that we all have to agree, that's what debate is, but, a few others just want to stir up trouble and derail as usual. They don't really care about the dogs, just their own egos.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I don't think Can-Doo wants unhealthy dogs. If he experiences any of the health problems in his pups I would guess that he would look at health clearances more closely. He probably has been lucky so far but all he needs is a pup he picked become severely crippled with hip dysplasia. 

Can-Doo, breeders try to hedge their bets and get the odds in their favor.


----------



## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> I worked for a vet years ago, here in our small, rural area. In those years with him, saw a lot of dogs, of course, many mixed breeds, lots of purebreds, including a bunch of Labs & Goldens. Lots of dysplasia and skin issues in the retrievers. There were several clients that were of the backyard breeder type, one Golden, 2 Labrador. I personally visited one of the Labrador breeders, who was later shut down by the county for many violations, all 26 of his Labs taken and re-homed, those that could be salvaged anyway. His were “AKC quality” but no real papers, even the AKC had given up on registering his Labs. He brought them in for mandatory rabies vaccines and not much else. Actual treatment cost money, cheaper to just dispose of a dog and replace it.
> 
> The Golden breeder had lots of issues and knew it but once those pups were out the door, they didn’t return any phone calls from the buyers, who were left with crippled dogs and big vet bills.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this. You addressed clearances, but also the care of the dogs. When a breeder produces litters without any forethought to the lives of the dogs who aren't sold-shame on them. To keep pumping out puppies that go from the puppy barn to being kept in over-crowded kennels with a staff that can barely keep up with feeding and cleaning, but has no time for giving the dogs the socialization, training and attention they need and you become justa hoarder of dogs. When some dogs live in outside kennels that are unprotected from the elements in extreme temperatures both winter and summer and never know what it's like to feel loved and cared for-let alone be trained or hunt - it's heartbreaking.

I know what I'm writing about first hand, but as long as folks can hide behind a bogus website and resting on the laurels of having had a good dog or two years ago, dogs who deserve to be owned by someone who respects and cares for them will live and die never having a chance to hunt, work and be cherished companions. Keeps me up at night.

M


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Can do and others who question the value of clearances, I'll post what I tell people. BTW I did not xray hips or do any clearances when I bred my first few Chesapeake litters (1985-89) but have done so since I became educated about them and why they're important.

When someone asks me about a CBR pup, I try to use the inquiry as an opportunity to educate them about the breed and what clearances to look for whether or not I sell them a dog. I'm constantly amazed by how many otherwise intelligent people fall for the slick websites and sales pitch of the high volume garbage breeders that are too cheap to do clearances. So I explain how to look up the parents' clearance info. on the OFA site and caution the buyer that if the breeder lied about the hips, they're probably being deceitful about other things as well and that alone is reason not to deal with them. I use hips as an example of why clearances are so important, since there's plenty of data on CHD, but also add the importance of elbows. A broad chested breed like the CBR carries more weight on its front legs and ED is typically far more painful than CHD. I don't think ED is as widespread in the breed as CHD but there also isn't as much data available since most breeders only routinely started xraying elbows about 10-12 years ago.

Chesapeakes have a higher rate of canine hip dysplasia than Labs or Goldens; right now about 20 percent are dysplastic. That is one in every five puppies! I could ignore that statistic and truthfully brag that no dog I bred ever had CHD, but odds are almost certain that some did and their owners (and I) never knew it because the dog was never xrayed. Most people still don't routinely xray, which is how most people find out their dogs have bad hips. The good news is for CBRs whelped after 2006, the rate of CHD has gone down to 12 percent, with a corresponding increase in those rated Excellent by OFA. That's still pretty high, one in 8 pups compared to one in 5. The decrease is because not only breeders, but buyers too, are becoming more educated about getting puppies from parents with sound hips. With the advent of so much readily available information, there's simply no excuse for anyone to sell Chesapeakes from untested parents.

Many retrievers can and do function quite well with hips that look horrible when xrayed. Even more can live fairly normal lives with mild or moderate CHD. But however sound they may appear, _*these dogs should not be bred*_. Sadly, there are still stridently anti-clearance morons hoodwinking their buyers by saying "My dogs don't have dysplasia, none of them have ever taken a lame step and my vet says their hips are fine."


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Can-Doo, I wouldn't be to worried about "just breeding gun dogs." Based on the pedigree's i'm seeing on some of the breeders in this thread, so are they. Finding an FC a generation back and breeding a JH to his SH son is not focusing on anything but gun dogs. What purpose the dogs have shouldn't stop you from getting the best possible healthy dog out there regardless of purpose. However i'm pretty used to seeing pot bellied pigs with more smarts, drive and talent that end up getting at least a JH. Good health, best talent best match of traits should be minimum on someones mind....
> 
> /Paul


I breed _*exclusively*_ for gun dogs. 

That's what these breeds are supposed to be in the first place. The fact that some folks want to compete does not automatically mean that everybody should be breeding for field trials and master hunters, and that the dogs that don't make it are washout gun dogs. There are specific things I look for (in addition to the breed standard) and anybody that knows me at all knows that if a dog doesn't meet my standards (which are pretty darned high) it will not be bred and will be spayed/neutered and placed. 

The fact that I'm breeding for high quality gun dogs also does not mean they can't be competitive if their owners so desire.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> They don't really care about the dogs, just their own egos.


definately a chunky peanut-butter comment


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> I breed _*exclusively*_ for gun dogs.
> 
> That's what these breeds are supposed to be in the first place. The fact that some folks want to compete does not automatically mean that everybody should be breeding for field trials and master hunters, and that the dogs that don't make it are washout gun dogs. There are specific things I look for (in addition to the breed standard) and anybody that knows me at all knows that if a dog doesn't meet my standards (which are pretty darned high) it will not be bred and will be spayed/neutered and placed.
> 
> The fact that I'm breeding for high quality gun dogs also does not mean they can't be competitive if their owners so desire.


I soooo much like this post. From one chukar slayer to another.;-)


----------



## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

KIm well said....

I use to be backyard breeder while in high school. Breeding our females that we hunted to other buddies dogs that hunted as well..... Never again!!!!!!!!

I bought my first well breed dog from Jeff Heanard and she was a charm. I did had hip, eic, cnm and eyes done before breeding her to Kicker. I have people call me all the time looking 
for a pup. I only send them in the direction of a litter that sire and dam have had the test done. I started getting involved with the what some people call high dollor
dogs because of all the clearance's and seeing the health issues. It's hard to beleve that people are willing to take a chance at passing on bad genetics like EIC and so
on.


----------



## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

11 pages......


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm enjoying this thread! It's not all "peanuts" but there are a few hidden with all of the crackerjacks. Occasionally there's even a prize! 

I think a lot of the heat between CanDoo and Rainmaker is due to a lack of understanding on each party's part. I think CanDoo truely wants to understand the clearances, but he doesn't understand the diseases, how they are transmitted, or exactly how you can test to screen for them. I think Rainmaker is so focused in her quest to educate people to only breed health-tested dogs and only buy pups from cleared parents that she failed to understand that CanDoo is honestly searching for basic information. Yeah, he bred his bitch before he got the answers, but at least he is asking the questons! He even stated that he may be coming to understand there is value in having testing done and asked about how to go about doing it. So, I have got to hand it to both of them that in spite of their differences and in spite of any miscommunication they are still pretty civil and trying to work toward a solution!

CanDoo asked for information about the health clearances a few times in this thread and didn't get much of a direct answer. I agree it is a bit of an undertaking for which I don't have time tonight myself. I may start a new thread tomorrow to address the issue if I have time. Not only might it help CanDoo understand these things better, it might help educate others who aren't as willing as CanDoo to subject themselves to the scrutiny of the RTF inquisition!

However, I'll leave CanDoo with this: You asked: "_aren't the health clearances that you guys test for hereditary? Wouldn't they show up in the older dogs?"_

Let me explain it to you this way. Let's say you breed two good ole' black Labs together. You knew they were good ole' black Labs and you even knew their parents were good ole' black Labs, so you expected a litter full of good ole' black Lab puppies! But WTF! Your mama dog has her pups and there are two of them dad-gum YELLAR DOGS in the dang litter!!! Now where the heck did they come from?!?

CanDoo, you can't always judge a book by its cover.

Swack


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

That dang yellow gene defect. Sneaky little devil, gets in the best of black lab families.

Red headed stepchild regards,


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Jeff I can't really speak for Kim but I think one of the problems she was having with Cann-Doo was he tried to play the victim card right away to get support from others and divert attention away from the real discussion at hand. If instead he would have come back with a legitimate argument as to why he didn't think health clearances were necessary then I think the discussions might have went differently. In other words I think he may have rubbed her the wrong way.


----------



## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Rnd said:


> 11 pages......


What's so egotistical about advocating for ethical breeding practices and ensuring dogs live healthy lives and are cared for? I read your signature line and you stand a better chance pinning those marks and lining those blinds when you get a dog from someone who fosters the breed.

M


----------



## Can-Doo (Feb 26, 2013)

Good Morning To All,

Sat. morning and I need to clean outh the hotwater heater and here I sit! LOL!!! I thought I was done with this thread but---

Let me first say, I have recieved some very helpful advice on the health clearance thing. I appreciate the great feedback. I can't say I am going to run out and get the clearances today. Takes me awhile to ponder things (the hotwater heater)! LOL

Scott, I did state what I thought was a legitamate reason for not doing the health clearances. My reason was I hadn't bought into them yet. A reason I stated honestly. Kim and I did have a pretty well, well heated debate. Yes, I did print some things that maybe I shouldn't have said, but let me say I felt a little rubbed the wrong way too. Let me also say I would probable get along well with her in person, fiesty. 

Not once in this thread have I said I disagree with the health clearances. I asked at one point if they were a way for a "responsible breeder" to raise the price of pups. Maybe not stated correctly, but stated and felt all the same. I also made the statement, prositute your dogs--probably not the best statement to be made to a breeder---but I am selfish with my good dogs. My intentions are not to run anybody's dogs down but hard not to when you are trying to explain your point. I think my dogs have been referred to as $200 huntin' dogs more than once--think that didn't ruffle my feathers just a little. My dog is my hunting partner and you don't get away with making negative statements about the people and dog in this case that I respect. She will do anything for me. She sits in the cold with me many days during season. 

I really don't know where I fall into the labels of breeding. I can only guess that it would be in the byb"er. Don't really like that. No I have not done the health thing but I know more than a little about the two dogs I bred. Let me say now, that if my son's new pup gets the hip thing or goes blind--well I'll feel terrible!! Who wants to do that to their kid? 

Scott, I recognize you from another lab forum. In one of your post you stated I never post about training my dog. You gave me advice on a situation about training on that forum, picking up geese was the thread that I started and you replied too. 

When I bought Brandy from a "responsible breeder"---I did alot of research, spent hours on the computer looking at websites. To my dismay, I still hadn't done enough. I went againest something I have long known, know what your getting, go look at it. I put my trust in a "responsible breeders" hand. It hasn't been an all postive ordeal. Personally, I think alot of breeders claim to be responsible and I am positive some are. 
alot of breeders state that they aren't in it for money--their marketing websites will tell you they do it for the love of the breed. Why do you then put your dog through the laboring process over and over? Some "responsible breeders" mate their dogs everytime they come into heat--they say they do it for the love of the breed. They label other breeders, byb'er, puppymills, but them theirselves are bettering the breed. Have you seen what their dogs look like? Wouldn't a truly responsible breeder at least try to get a lab to look like and do like what a lab was meant to do. Am I down on hearing about the responsible breeder--you betcha! I do think there are people trying to do the right thing. I think the label "responsible breeder' is used way to loosely. A guy that sells 200 dogs a yr. with a clean kennel and clearances, calls hiimself responsible and not a mill. With everyone throwing out litter after litter and they believe none of their dogs end up in the pound or rescue---yes it happens just look under free stuff anywhere--you will run across some.

I have got alot out of this debate Scott and I feel better about my thoughts on the clearances--I will not just change my mind or feelings about something because someone on a computer calls themself a responsible breeder. I have a right to ask the questions I ask. I don't read alot of threads because at the time they don't pertain to ME. I don't read about the double TT, the forcing to pile, the eic, the pra, and the list goes on..I want my to be a good responsible person about my dogs and I ask the questions to learn. I don't like to be looked negatively on, such as I would lie about my dogs or motives. I am sure you feel the same way about yourself. I will continue to post on 3 lab forums so I can learn. Hopefully one day you will see I am trying to learn.

Thanks,
Jim Dooley


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Jim we all make mistakes when starting out and keep on making them as we go but hopefully we learn from those mistakes and make less of them as we go. Sometimes we suffer from our mistakes but I don't think an innocent animal should suffer from a mistake when if someone does their research with all the information there is out there they could have prevented it from happening. It sounds like you've learned a lot from this thread and you honestly want to be a better breeder and if that's the case then I commend you for that and it doesn't matter whether your breeding 2 FC together or 2 gun dogs as long as you do it responsibly it's all good. Good luck with your new pup and take advantage of all the good training info on here.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

My simple thoughts on clearances: While we can't prevent everything from happening, we have the information to completely prevent some things. To not take advantage of tests available just doesn't make sense....with those tests, there is no need to ever produce an affected puppy. And that should be a goal of anybody breeding dogs...to do their best to make sure no puppy is born with an easily preventable health issue.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I've been sort of mulling this over while I read the whole thread. One very major purpose of the tests that I do is to give me assurance that I'm doing the right thing in terms of this dog breeding to that bitch. This is whether or not the buyers appreciate the test results or not. I hope they do but they don't need to for my satisfaction.

Second, there is in fact a definition of a puppy mill. In Avenson v. Zegart the court mentioned in the ruling an aside that has created the definition. A puppy mill is "a dog breeding operation in which the health of the dogs is disregarded in order to maintain a low overhead and maximize profits." (577 F.Supp. 958 (1984)) Unfortunately, no legal definition of "backyard breeder" is available so we have to draw from a site like Wikipedia and we find that they don't have a very specific definition. About all we can say is that the accepted language seems to be that it's a small version of the puppy mill. So....there you have it though it's not much use to any of us as far as precision.

Now, as to what the tests show. Some tests look for a condition which is very straightforward...a simple recessive. If your dog is a carrier and the the dog you breed to is a carrier, you've got a 1 in 4 chance that every dog in the litter will have the condition, a 1 in 2 chance that every dog in the litter will be a carrier of the condition, and a 1 in 4 chance that any dog in the litter will be completely free and clear of the problem. Since these problems may be blindness or cleft palate or juvenile Addisons (in my breed), I need the tests to know what I'm working with. Without the tests, I'm completely in the dark. Looking at the ancestry of the two dogs may or may not help. For one thing, no one may have noticed a dog had the problem or maybe the owners just didn't know what to look for.

Now, if a person breeds without the tests and sells (places) to friends, what's to stop those friends from breeding on the same basis as you have? However, while you may dodge a bullet and produce dogs that are only carriers of a condition, they'll hit the "jackpot" and produce a entire litter with EIC?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that as a breeder you are responsible to the buyers to produce the best puppy possible. It is always a crap shoot. However, shouldn't we do what we can to minimize the risks of the buyer learning in years to come that their beloved dog has a severe condition that may in fact threaten or shorten his life.


----------



## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> My simple thoughts on clearances: While we can't prevent everything from happening, we have the information to completely prevent some things. To not take advantage of tests available just doesn't make sense....with those tests, there is no need to ever produce an affected puppy. And that should be a goal of anybody breeding dogs...to do their best to make sure no puppy is born with an easily preventable health issue.


Totally agree!


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Nobody but you is making it about breeding "just gundogs". There is nothing wrong and alot of good in alot of "just gundogs". I made it perfectly clear, several times, I don't care what the purpose is, just a meat dog, just a pet, don't care about the pedigree, don't care if it is UK or silver or bench or a doodle, just do right by the dogs, do the best you can not to produce crippling health issues. I understand you want perfectly talented, biddable, smart, eager but not too high dogs to train, to make your life easier, but that isn't the point of this particular thread.


Its not about making my life easier and not about ego. I choose not to breed dogs very often because there are plenty of people who really enjoy it and are good at breeding. I prefer to train dogs. I train the dog in front of me regardless to the best of my ability. I do though have an obligation to clients to guide them in choosing a dog that will give them the best of what they are looking for. Too many times people get dogs that just frankly are not cut out to do what they want them to do. I then have the unfortunate job of telling them the dog can't cut it and it is a waste of money to continue training them or they will have to accept the dogs limitations and the cost of having to spend extra training money to get the dog where they want it. 9 times out of 10 their reply is "but i got him from a reputable breeder, he's got AKC papers, his great grandfather was an FC" and so forth. Having the healthiest dog in the world is no consolation when it won't do the work. Having to tell someone that is about the hardest thing in the world.

/Paul


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Jim/Can-Do, I appreciate your right to your viewpoint and the fact you are questioning and seeking answers. Post a thread asking for specifics on health clearances and I'm sure you'll get plenty of responses. You are correct in that there are plenty of slick websites, lots of people claiming to be responsible/ethical breeders and it takes some work, experience and knowledge to weed through them, no argument from me there. 

As to your hurt feelings over your dogs being called $200 hunting dogs, I do think you were the first one to bring up that price, you're the one who said you sell for $200 and that you just want a hunting dog. I don't think too many on here have a problem with "just a hunting dog" since that is what a whole bunch of people do with their retrievers. Many, many fine hunting dogs out there, (also referred to as "meat dogs"), and while some might think that a negative connotation, I really don't think it's meant that way, in general. It's just a another way to refer to retrievers that don't participate in organized venues like HT/FT, a label, what happens when people talk in generalities. 

My first "AKC" Lab was BYB, $250, literally from my stepkid's next door neighbor's backyard. He was an incredible dog, for us. Got me into HT. Passed hips/elbows/eyes, got his SH, though we moved for my husband's job and got out of HT for a few years after that. The next two Labs I got were better bred and a little more $$, first one had terrible skin allergies, bilateral hip dysplasia and bilateral CCL repairs before she was 18 months old. She lived til she was 12 and a more rotten dog never lived but she was priceless for sheer entertainment value. The other, a BLF, was $700, plus shipping, big deal to us back then and something I really had to convince my husband was worth it. She was dysplastic at 9 months. Her replacement from the breeder passed all clearances eventually but hated training so much, she went to a retired couple, where she remains, getting whiter every year with them. So, one would think, I started out with great luck with a BYB dog, and the next ones with hips, elbows, eyes and some titles in the pedigree didn't fare so well. Doesn't seem to make much sense, then, my stance on clearances now. Except that I have to go with the big picture, look at the research of those who give so much of their time to finding answers to our problems, network with other breeders, heed the advice of those who have gone before me. I figure I owe it to my clients to do the best I can and to my dogs to waste as much money as I possibly can on them. Clearances like hips and elbows aren't perfect and they sure aren't black and white. But they are what I have to work with for now, ignoring them isn't really an option I can live with.


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Eric Johnson said:


> Second, there is in fact a definition of a puppy mill. In Avenson v. Zegart the court mentioned in the ruling an aside that has created the definition. *A puppy mill is "a dog breeding operation in which the health of the dogs is disregarded in order to maintain a low overhead and maximize profits." *(577 F.Supp. 958 (1984)) Unfortunately, no legal definition of *"backyard breeder"* is available so we have to draw from a site like Wikipedia and we find that they don't have a very specific definition. About all we can say is that the accepted language seems to be that it's* a small version of the puppy mill.* So....there you have it though it's not much use to any of us as far as precision.


Eric,

Thanks for the definition! If maximizing Profits is the key component then I can confidently state that I am not a Puppy Mill or a Backyard Breeder! As Rainmaker accurately stated, _"I figure I owe it to my clients to do the best I can and to my dogs to waste as much money as I possibly can on them."


_Well put Kim!

Swack


----------

