# How to stop "creeping" at the line?



## DRAKE FORET (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm having some issues with my dog creeping at the line for marks. How or what is the best way to put an end to this? I have several friends say that in training, if the dog moves in the slightest bit to pick the dog up and not let it get the retrieve. Retry again about 15 minutes later and repeat again if it happens again. In a way it makes since. Another question, is there another way to make the dog understand that no moving at the line equals getting the retrieve? I'm not saying that picking the dog up won't work but if he doesn't understand why is being picked up after several attempts i've gotten nowhere. I've just finished my Seasoned Title in UKC and want to fix this before i even think about moving to "Finished" or "Master" level. It's not a "Control Break" creep and the judges never said anything about it but i don't want him moving at all. He moves approximately 1-1/2 to 2 foot up when marks are thrown. Any suggestions or tips you guys do in training to nip this in the butt?


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Jason, call me and I will tell you about the drill I used for Amber to stop her breaking. The drill is for the working dog that creeps. It made a whole of difference. 
Thanks so much for the hard work this weekend . You and Ted rock as marshals. I will see if I can find the paperwork I have on the drill and send to you.


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## Longgun (Sep 19, 2009)

Are you re-healing before sending when the dog creeps?
deb


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## Ikanizer (Jul 22, 2013)

I would also like to know how to handle the exact same problem with my dog. Moves about a foot or so when each mark is thrown. He moves back where he started on command but I can't make him understand he is not supposed to move.


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm interested in this as well.... I have my own thoughts on how to address the issue but I'll wait for the experienced retriever folks to answer.... Its a bit different with pointing dogs obviously... 

@Karen,

Why not share here?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Do a thread search on "sit means sit". What you are seeing is an infraction of that. No movement is accepted except for some turning to watch marks go down. Dogs think in the here and now.Putting them away to "think about it" really doesn't do much.Correct it immediately.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Here's a great thread on the topic: http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-Creeping-Correction-1-Way&highlight=creeping


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

The use of a "place" platform can be very effective in teaching pup that he/she must sit still while the birds are going down. The elevation - 3" is enough - creates a sharp definition of where pup can be w/o getting corrected. The platform need only be just big enough for pup's butt and 4 paws. Any movement means pup falls off the board and gets an immediate correction. Once pup is rock steady on the platform move to ground. Return to the platform as needed. I did not use a place board on my older dog, and he dances a bit at the line - never to the point of being required by the judges to reheel, but a nuisance that is now too ingrained to correct. The 1 year old, who started off with a place board, is - so far - rock steady. The platform I made for him is about 18" square, and is just a piece of 1/2" plywood on 2x4s. 
There are plenty of drills to reinforce steady, but the place board is, IMO, the best way to teach the concept.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The following is a response from a very nicelady that used to visit here on a regular basis. I miss her posts and the advice she gave.
Her name was Kristie Wilder.

Her method helped me greatly with a dog that was a horrible creeper! A regular country line dance when marks were going off.
I thought I would post her excellent suggestions/

Dogs usually, NOT always, creep because they've been allowed to creep. Somewhere 
early in your dog's progress, there was probably a time where the front feet pitter-pattered 
and then another time where they went forward a little... And so on... And now you have 
a creeping problem. 

To stop creeping, you must first prevent it (duh). And to do that, you have to: 1) be quick 
and 2) choose a correction that fits your dog. 

If your dog is way out of control creeping, it's not something you take down to zero 
tolerance immediately. You would break it down into steps as far as what you allow for 
your standard for steadiness. You cannot expect a dog that creeps three feet to creep zero 
with one or two lessons... So first you look for IMPROVEMENT and you correct to 
reach THAT standard - NOT perfection. 

So here are some rules: 
1) Your dog should never be allowed a retrieve where it does not meet your standards for 
steadiness (these will tighten up over the course of a few weeks or months while you train 
him to the new standards) 
2) NO MULTIPLES. Singles only until you fix the problem. 
3) If your dog does not meet your standards for steadiness, you correct and reset the dog. 
Have them WATCH the mark being picked back up. Then rethrow. Repeat as much as 
needed to get the dog to comply with your CURRENT standards for steadiness. IF he is 
having a lot of trouble, you can do things like remove the gunshot, move marks farther 
away. 
4) You can HELP your dog have some success by doing very boring marks (far away, no 
gunshot, no duck call, no splash) -- this allows you to get in some PRAISE so your dog 
understands what's expected. 

continued... 

5) Make sure you have TWO commands -- one to move foward (we use HERE), one to 
move backward (we use HEEL). Make sure your dog UNDERSTANDS that they are 
DIFFERENT. Many people use HEEL to mean "stay with me" but it is MUCH MUCH 
MORE helpful to have TWO commands. And VERY helpful when you're dealing with a 
creeping dog. For people who use heel only, it doesn't help the dog move with you. For 
dogs that creep, we swat them across the chest with the heeling stick while saying "heel" 
(or a collar nick, or maybe burn, depending on the dog). 

6) For each subsequent time your dog creeps and has not IMPROVED in effort to NOT 
creep, the pressure should increase. So if you throw a mark, the dog fails your standards, 
you have it picked up and he creeps again... He should receive a stronger correcton. 

7) Back up A LOT. Work on surprising your dog. He should be sharp in his reponse to 
you. He should stay stuck to you like glue. Correct for any lagging or half-effort 
responses. 

8) When at heel, watching marks, the dog's shoulders should be even with yours. Dogs 
that are head ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU!! Dogs should not watch 
marks with their butts at your feet. You and your dog should be able to make eye contact 
without you having to bend over and forward and get on all fours... LOL You should be 
able to look down and see your dog's eyes easily. Dogs that creep tend to be dogs that are 
ahead at all times. 

9) Control at all times. Creeping (and almost all other control issues) are usually a 
symptom of a bigger problem. Make sure you are requiring your dog to sit and wait to get 
out of his box/truck, that the collar is on before he gets out, that you heel nicely to the 
line, that you require good manners both in and out of training.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Its really your sit standard!

I bet if you Have experienced folks evaluate the problem,, you will be told what Mr Ted Shih told me once.....

Your dog doesnt "sit" cause you dont make her....


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for posting that, MG. I think Kristie is busy with a lab rescue project these days. Great post.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> The following is a response from a very nicelady that used to visit here on a regular basis. I miss her posts and the advice she gave.
> Her name was Kristie Wilder.
> 
> Her method helped me greatly with a dog that was a horrible creeper! A regular country line dance when marks were going off.
> ...


This is good. #9 needs more emphasis, IMHO. It all begins before you even open the crate door!

Also #2 is very good. Some folks are doing multiples when dog can't even hold still for singles.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

You can get in a lot of repetitions in your backyard by sitting your dog on a place board (see Gooddogs post), walk out a short ways maybe even just 10 feet to throw a bumper. Dog might even lurch before you get off the throw, if so go back and re-sit dog. Rinse repeat until dog is still, throw bumper, if dog moves, go re-sit dog, pick up bumper, rinse repeat. Once dog has this down, gradually up the excitement of the throws to tempt dog to move, but only let it retrieve the throw if it is totally steady.

I do this with my dog. She thinks it is a fun game!

If you don't have a place board a mat will do.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DRAKE FORET said:


> I'm having some issues with my dog creeping at the line for marks. How or what is the best way to put an end to this? I have several friends say that in training, if the dog moves in the slightest bit to pick the dog up and not let it get the retrieve. Retry again about 15 minutes later and repeat again if it happens again. In a way it makes since. Another question, is there another way to make the dog understand that no moving at the line equals getting the retrieve?


Why the 15 minute wait to repeat?


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

MooseGooser said:


> Its really your sit standard!
> 
> I bet if you Have experienced folks evaluate the problem,, you will be told what Mr Ted Shih told me once.....
> 
> Your dog doesnt "sit" cause you dont make her....


Thanks Gooser for posting that !


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

It may seem like backing up, but I've had some success putting a prong collar tight around the dog's neck with a short tab (above the e-collar) like I would on a puppy. It's much easier to identify and counteract creeping and crouching. And I've got a world class croucher that is unimpressed by sticks and e-collars.


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## PennyRetrievers (Mar 29, 2013)

Ok, so to add to the post, how do you fix this probelm when it's a test-only issue. 

My dog won't move a muscle in training, but creeps like the dickiens at a test. Now what?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Quit throwing marks for the dog and re-establish his sit standard in the yard.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Good Dogs said:


> The use of a "place" platform can be very effective in teaching pup that he/she must sit still while the birds are going down. The elevation - 3" is enough - creates a sharp definition of where pup can be w/o getting corrected. The platform need only be just big enough for pup's butt and 4 paws. Any movement means pup falls off the board and gets an immediate correction. Once pup is rock steady on the platform move to ground. Return to the platform as needed. I did not use a place board on my older dog, and he dances a bit at the line - never to the point of being required by the judges to reheel, but a nuisance that is now too ingrained to correct. The 1 year old, who started off with a place board, is - so far - rock steady. The platform I made for him is about 18" square, and is just a piece of 1/2" plywood on 2x4s.
> There are plenty of drills to reinforce steady*, but the place board is, IMO, the best way to teach the concept*.


^^^^^^ I agree


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

PennyRetrievers said:


> Ok, so to add to the post, how do you fix this probelm when it's a test-only issue.
> 
> My dog won't move a muscle in training, but creeps like the dickiens at a test. Now what?


Train more, run fewer tests, I suspect.

I think the idea is to make good line manners a habit so that when you go to the test your dog is running on muscle memory.

Disclaimer: I'm training my first dog.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

PennyRetrievers said:


> Ok, so to add to the post, how do you fix this probelm when it's a test-only issue.
> 
> My dog won't move a muscle in training, but creeps like the dickiens at a test. Now what?


set up your training day like a test including taking off the collar...might just show if your dog is collar wise too


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

PennyRetrievers said:


> Ok, so to add to the post, how do you fix this probelm when it's a test-only issue.
> 
> My dog won't move a muscle in training, but creeps like the dickiens at a test. Now what?


How old is your dog? How long has he been doing this? Does he even lift his butt an inch in training? Are you willing to give up your entry fee by picking him up the second he creeps at a hunt test? Depending on the answer to those questions, this can be a very difficult problem to fix. The younger the dog the better.

Some high dive, confident marking dogs don't appreciate the team aspect of our sport. They assume your job is to just stand there and take birds so he can get on with the retrieving. I had a dog like that, by the time I realized it was a problem, he was too trial wise for me to do anything about it. Like your dog he was perfect in training because he knew I had all the power, in a trial he would heel to the line perfect, sit by my side and shift perfect as I was pointing out guns, then even though I signaled the judge out of his sight, he would step forward two feet, telling me he had it from here. He was such a good marker, and so smart, it usually didn't hurt his performance, but there were times when he could have used my help in stepping up or back to focus him on a hard to see gun.

Anyway, all I can think to do if your dog doesn't creep in training, is to back up two steps and use the collar or stick to make sure he heels back into position by your side. You need to make him nervous enough to have half an eye out on you, and make sure he is always by your side. Then you might have to give up a couple entry fees to show him the same standards apply at a hunt test as at home. I would let the judges know while you're in the holding blind that your dog might creep and if he does, you are going back up a step with a loud HEEL-SIT, then pick him up. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that, what are they going to do, throw you out for training in a test?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Charles C. said:


> It may seem like backing up, but I've had some success putting a prong collar tight around the dog's neck with a short tab (above the e-collar) like I would on a puppy. It's much easier to identify and counteract creeping and crouching. *And I've got a world class croucher that is unimpressed by sticks and e-collars.*


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> set up your training day like a test including taking off the collar...might just show if your dog is collar wise too


Get the long whip you use for stick to pile and give it to one of the folks who you have sitting in the judges chairs. If he moves, have the 'judge' sitting behind the dog stick him and say sit.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DoubleHaul said:


> Get the long whip you use for stick to pile and give it to one of the folks who you have sitting in the judges chairs. If he moves, have the 'judge' sitting behind the dog stick him and say sit.


Hope you are referring to the OP, because I am not a FTP guy


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Hope you are referring to the OP, because I am not a FTP guy


Yes. The simulated HT/Trial can be a wonderful opportunity to deal with the pesky "never in training" problems. A club trial is even better. You just need something a little longer than a heeling stick for the 'judge' to make the correction. If you don't use a longer one, like for stick to pile you can borrow one or pick one up at tractor supply. They are not expensive.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

To truly replicate a FT or HT environment is very tough! Most are not willing to go to the effort. You need judges, canopy, gallery, marshal, bird rack, live fire, real poppers, flyers, new grounds, long drives, hotel, airing yards with lots of scent, ect. This is your best bet to get corrections. Your goal is a correction. Works better if applied by the "judge"!

Other options are to increase excitement levels in order to get corrections. Shackled flyers over dogs head. Shot chickens or guinea hens. Goal here is also corrections.

Your best bet & the approach that worked better for me is to drastically upgrade your standards. Heel means ear by knee. Don't move to line until dog is in proper heel position. No marks unless dog is sitting perfectly at heel. Any movement from a twitch to a lifted paw results in a picked up mark. Rethrow it but no retrieves unless you see improvement. Probably will take months to see results. Also need to be willing to maintain standards at a test. That probably means a few club donations.

Good luck! I am still fighting the monster I created.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK to the point. 
To solve creeping on line you simply need to improve your obedience training and maintain dog at a higher standard of compliance. This applies to Sit, Heel and Here. 
Folks with creeping, crouching dogs need to have a truthful look at how they Really interact with their dog. It's usually something different than they think.
Creeping often happens before you see forward movement. Watch your dogs ass. It will probably come up off the ground prior to front foot shuffle and creep.
Correct for violation of Sit when butt comes up. Waiting for forward movement could be too late.
Until you get used to looking for it have someone behind the line cue you when dog's butt comes off ground. 
.
On line the sit/heel standard, for me, is dog sitting with neck and front feet always within a few inches of me, dogs butt does not come up off of the ground at all (even when pivoting 360). Dog is permitted minimal forward and rearward movement. Dogs neck/collar is even with leg and dog's front paws are not in front of or behind boots. 
.
.......................
If you want, it may be helpful to train with a pinch collar and training tab as outlined below.

The pic shows what a pinch collar with "Training Tab" looks like. Clip and type of rope up to you. 
.
_









_

.
Here's how to set the length of your training tab. (if you like this idea that is)
Wear pants and boots your normally train in. Have dog sitting perfectly at heel with his collar even with your leg. (Not 5" in front or behind) 
With dog wearing Pinch Collar and Training Tab clipped to the collar determine length of tab and where to tie end knot.
Hold the rope between your Index and Middle fingers and tuck your thumb into your pants Pocket. Adjust your grip and rope length so there is a few inches slack, then mark spot with a marker and tie knot end knot

If you would like to get better working a dog on line using a pinch collar try this. 
Using the pinch collar w/tab and ecollar every single time you train your dog. A general rule is always have hold of Tab unless dog is retrieving.
Hold knot lightly between your index and middle finger(no death grip) Tab should not be used to restrain, "steer" or move the dog. 
Walking to line teach dog that if he pulls your thumb out of your pocket or pulls knot out of your fingers it is a violation of Heel. 
On line if dog pulls tab knot out of your fingers, either by moving forward or backward or crouching down in a ready set go posture that would be be a violation of Sit.
Only time you would pull on tab would be Up for Corrections. Little coaxing tugs OK but he must move on his own to voice. Low bumps on the ecollar are preferable to tugging on tab. 

If you've never trained with a tab start in the yard with formal obedience drills and then move to the wagon wheel for heel/here fine tuning. 

Anyway, hope you get the general idea how to halt creeping.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Of course you could try 'Honouring' .


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Charles C. said:


> It may seem like backing up, but I've had some success putting a prong collar tight around the dog's neck with a short tab (above the e-collar) like I would on a puppy. It's much easier to identify and counteract creeping and crouching. And I've got a world class croucher that is unimpressed by sticks and e-collars.


 I like this suggestion and it is simple. Like Bon says to take the collar off. You can't use the collar at the test or trial so teach the dog without it. IMHO


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> How old is your dog? How long has he been doing this? Does he even lift his butt an inch in training? Are you willing to give up your entry fee by picking him up the second he creeps at a hunt test? Depending on the answer to those questions, this can be a very difficult problem to fix. The younger the dog the better.
> 
> Some high dive, confident marking dogs don't appreciate the team aspect of our sport. They assume your job is to just stand there and take birds so he can get on with the retrieving. I had a dog like that, by the time I realized it was a problem, he was too trial wise for me to do anything about it. Like your dog he was perfect in training because he knew I had all the power, in a trial he would heel to the line perfect, sit by my side and shift perfect as I was pointing out guns, then even though I signaled the judge out of his sight, he would step forward two feet, telling me he had it from here. He was such a good marker, and so smart, it usually didn't hurt his performance, but there were times when he could have used my help in stepping up or back to focus him on a hard to see gun.
> 
> Anyway, all I can think to do if your dog doesn't creep in training, is to back up two steps and use the collar or stick to make sure he heels back into position by your side. You need to make him nervous enough to have half an eye out on you, and make sure he is always by your side. Then you might have to give up a couple entry fees to show him the same standards apply at a hunt test as at home. I would let the judges know while you're in the holding blind that your dog might creep and if he does, you are going back up a step with a loud HEEL-SIT, then pick him up. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that, what are they going to do, throw you out for training in a test?


The last section above is something like the drill. I do not remember were i downloaded it from . The concept is to keep the dog focused on you and the mark. I did not need it for the line but for honor. I started making sure that every move I made she took notice. In training when a mark came out I took a step back and said heel until she got the idea. I did this with a 6 yr old dog so really does not matter age. Once she understood that if I moved back she better move too I quite saying heal but just moved. Did not take long for her to know to stay with me. I worked like a charm on honor. I only had to move 1 foot back and she moved with my foot. Took her mind of the flying birds. I was worried that doing this with the working dog might take their mind off the marks . But the article I read said it was for the working dog to stop movement.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> I would let the judges know while you're in the holding blind that your dog might creep and if he does, you are going back up a step with a loud HEEL-SIT, then pick him up. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that, what are they going to do, throw you out for training in a test?


John, good stuff as usual.

I have been watching the Rorem handling videos (and getting my eyes opened a LOT). One thing he says is that this is all a violation of "Sit" and that you should make that your first command. IOW, the next time my dog breaks on honor, my sequence would be as follows: No, SIT. Here. Heel. SIT. Put lead on. Drop head in shame. Again. I am not sure this is really any different, but I throw it out there for comment because it popped into my mind.

I am learning that you would have a difficult time really going overboard with the sit command. Not impossible, but very difficult.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

fishduck said:


> To truly replicate a FT or HT environment is very tough! Most are not willing to go to the effort. You need judges, canopy, gallery, marshal, bird rack, live fire, real poppers, flyers, new grounds, long drives, hotel, airing yards with lots of scent, ect. This is your best bet to get corrections. Your goal is a correction. Works better if applied by the "judge"!


If you can get fishduck, Splash_em, and Lonnie Spann to be your "judges" in this deal you might really have something.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> John, good stuff as usual.
> 
> I have been watching the Rorem handling videos (and getting my eyes opened a LOT). One thing he says is that this is all a violation of "Sit" and that you should make that your first command. IOW, the next time my dog breaks on honor, my sequence would be as follows: No, SIT. Here. Heel. SIT. Put lead on. Drop head in shame. Again. I am not sure this is really any different, but I throw it out there for comment because it popped into my mind.
> 
> I am learning that you would have a difficult time really going overboard with the sit command. Not impossible, but very difficult.


Yeah, *SIT* is the ultimate stabilizing command. Like Karen said, the concept is to get the dog concentrating on staying right next to you without any verbal command. Move back without a word (basically setting the dog up in the beginning), then correct with collar or heeling stick if the dog was slow to pick up he wasn't next to you any more. In an actual hunt test, unless you had very forgiving judges, all you have for correction is voice, since in this case you want the dog to move back you would have to say HEEL, sit would just pop his butt down where he was, not back behind the line where you now are. The ideal would be a good swap on the but with my hat, but we'll have to leave that for the simulated hunt test.

Getting back to your comment, I agree, a loud SIT is really preferable over Here or Heel in a breaking situation.

John


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

No voice needed if dog knows the drill. Simply quietly step back and if dog doesnt follow, oh oh!
But first you need to Teach dog your criteria for "Assume the Position". 
If that means his neck sticks to your leg like glue, teach it and be consistant demanding it.
Otherwise all the bandaids mean nothing.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

That's where I agree w/Bill Hillman who says the 1st thing you teach your dog is "sit!" Like Lardy advocates you train every day like you do at a trial - you set the standard and remain firm. Newbies you are not going to damage your dog w/sit.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

swliszka said:


> That's where I agree w/Bill Hillman who says the 1st thing you teach your dog is "sit!" Like Lardy advocates you train every day like you do at a trial - you set the standard and remain firm. Newbies you are not going to damage your dog w/sit.


Yea, and you can 'overload them' with Honour Too! ..Just like pressure, with the pain of 'No Creep' 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Breck said:


> No voice needed if dog knows the drill. Simply quietly step back and if dog doesnt follow, oh oh!
> But first you need to Teach dog your criteria for "Assume the Position".
> If that means his neck sticks to your leg like glue, teach it and be consistant demanding it.
> Otherwise all the bandaids mean nothing.


What he said.
Was training last week with a friend who complained about her "creeper." First set up the dog crept about a foot and she did nothing to correct it. I mentioned that she had missed a "training opportunity" and she said "Oh yes but I was focused on that difficult mark you set up." Next rep, dog raised her butt and moved just slightly. Again, I said "you just missed a training opportunity." "Oh, I didn't think she moved enough to justify a correction." Next rep I told my friend that she could let the dog creep, break or run back to the truck because it obviously did not matter to her what the dog did. She got pissed at me. Go figure. 
With all due respect to the OP, it's easy to let little things slide in training that manifest in big issues when it matters. Been there, done that.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Yea, and you can 'overload them' with Honour Too! ..Just like pressure, with the pain of 'No Creep'
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc


.
Holy **** Batman. That's wild. Everyone should Click and watch this one. 
Dogs sitting calmly while guns unload for six minutes, yes 6 Minutes of nearly unintrupted gun fire freekin' birds flying and falling everywhere.
.
from way video was setup to film yellow dog you don't see too many birds fall but it was boat load.

Hey, at this shoot how many shots do you think were taken for each bird hit? I'm curious how many pheasnt went down in that barrage! If you were at this shoot how close were the nearest guns to the dogs?
Many you guys have fun.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> .
> Hey, at this shoot how many shots do you think were taken for each bird hit? I'm curious how many pheasnt went down in that barrage! If you were at this shoot how close were the nearest guns to the dogs?
> Many you guys have fun.


I think it was probably around 3:1 ratio of shots Breck.
That was one of the biggest 1 of 5 drives that day in which over 500 birds were shot by 8 guns.
The nearest gun was about 30 yards away from the dogs.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

That is really something! Would you mind writing a bit about what's going on in those minutes? What's said over radios and what is going on when guns are silent? 
Only 8 guns? Since I think only doubles are used then i imagine each gun will have a reloader? How many other people are present supporting the shoot? 
Thanks much.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Besides being steady, what can be assessed about the quality of a particular dogs work in this type of shoot ?

john


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Good Dogs said:


> What he said.
> Was training last week with a friend who complained about her "creeper." First set up the dog crept about a foot and she did nothing to correct it. I mentioned that she had missed a "training opportunity" and she said "Oh yes but I was focused on that difficult mark you set up." Next rep, dog raised her butt and moved just slightly. Again, I said "you just missed a training opportunity." "Oh, I didn't think she moved enough to justify a correction." Next rep I told my friend that she could let the dog creep, break or run back to the truck because it obviously did not matter to her what the dog did. She got pissed at me. Go figure.
> With all due respect to the OP, it's easy to let little things slide in training that manifest in big issues when it matters. Been there, done that.


One thing that was very hard for me to learn was WATCH THE DOG. It's his job to see the marks go down and mark them. It's my job to watch him and make sure I have enough control to put him in a position to do his job. 

I did not realize near early enough just how high the standard needed to be in the yard to get anything acceptable in the testing/hunting environment. I also did not realize just how consistent the corrections needed to be either. Oh well, live and learn, I guess.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I have an honest question... 

Why is everyone so apt to suggest "at the line" solutions to a problem most readily admit begins before the dog is even loaded onto the truck?

2nd question...

Where's Bohn when ya need him?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> I have an honest question...
> 
> Why is everyone so apt to suggest "at the line" solutions to a problem most readily admit begins before the dog is even loaded onto the truck?
> 
> ...


That's not my impression. I didn't count posts, but I felt that most of the initial posts suggested that a higher obedience standard in all phases of the dog's training would help the creeping problem.

So I don't think "everyone" suggests that the problem is corrected only "at the line."


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## DRAKE FORET (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for the input. Very valuable information. My dog just turned 3 years old and it just has become an issue. He's in the transition stage with pattern blinds and short cold blinds and very few marks lately. I will step back a little and revisit "sit" command and definitely try to be more patient at the line during training and let him try to figure it out.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I have an honest question...
> 
> Why is everyone so apt to suggest "at the line" solutions to a problem most readily admit begins before the dog is even loaded onto the truck?
> 
> ...


.
Um? cough cough, where do you think the ideas in post #28 came from?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Breck said:


> Um? cough cough, where do you think the ideas in post #28 came from?


Breck, do you have permission to post that up "pro Bohno?"

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Besides being steady, what can be assessed about the quality of a particular dogs work in this type of shoot ?
> 
> john


It was 6 minutes of being steady John  each drive lasts about 20-30 minutes of shooting these 6 minutes were the in the middle of that. 
Oh ! don't worry John the dogs get their fair share of work on these days ..They are on the 'look -out' just like me for 'Cripples' !! Dead birds don't move! So the 'Marks' are just too darn easy  we get them at the end of each drive.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

polmaise said:


> It was 6 minutes of being steady John  each drive lasts about 20-30 minutes of shooting these 6 minutes were the in the middle of that.
> Oh ! don't worry John the dogs get their fair share of work on these days ..They are on the 'look -out' just like me for 'Cripples' !! Dead birds don't move! So the 'Marks' are just too darn easy  we get them at the end of each drive.


Well then when you/they do spot a cripple, in the midst of the fray for instance, at what point is it retrieved?

john


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

polmaise said:


> I think it was probably around 3:1 ratio of shots Breck.
> That was one of the biggest 1 of 5 drives that day in which over 500 birds were shot by 8 guns.
> The nearest gun was about 30 yards away from the dogs.


Holy schnides ! Looks like I need a trip to the mother country oh..... and BRING AMMO !  !!!! That's nuts !


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Well then when you/they do spot a cripple, in the midst of the fray for instance, at what point is it retrieved?
> 
> john


El Pronto ...John  If not sooner.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> One thing that was very hard for me to learn was WATCH THE DOG. It's his job to see the marks go down and mark them. It's my job to watch him and make sure I have enough control to put him in a position to do his job.
> 
> I did not realize near early enough just how high the standard needed to be in the yard to get anything acceptable in the testing/hunting environment. I also did not realize just how consistent the corrections needed to be either. Oh well, live and learn, I guess.


Somebody has been paying attention!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Breck said:


> .
> 
> 
> Hey, at this shoot how many shots do you think were taken for each bird hit? I'm curious how many pheasnt went down in that barrage! If you were at this shoot how close were the nearest guns to the dogs?
> Many you guys have fun.


Seems like the ground would be littered with birds ... no way they will remember them. Just run out there in the general direction till they get a nose full, right?

JS


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Breck said:


> .
> Um? cough cough, where do you think the ideas in post #28 came from?


I figured  I figured the responses would focus further back in the process.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I figured  I figured the responses would focus further back in the process.


That's the common problem on this forum. By the time a newbie post an issue they are having, they are way past the easy fix point in training. I hate to squash their interest, so I usually address the OP's question and situation as it stands right now, while pointing out how I made mistakes with my first dog or two that I learned from and changed my ways with my next dog. I know when I was training my first dog, the furthest thing in my mind was the thought that these are good lessons for dealing with my next dog. I was totally focused on training the dog I had, but in the greater context of helping others who may read the thread, all information is useful.

John


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> That's the common problem on this forum. By the time a newbie post an issue they are having, they are way past the easy fix point in training. I hate to squash their interest, so I usually address the OP's question and situation as it stands right now, while pointing out how I made mistakes with my first dog or two that I learned from and changed my ways with my next dog. I know when I was training my first dog, the furthest thing in my mind was the thought that these are good lessons for dealing with my next dog. I was totally focused on training the dog I had, but in the greater context of helping others who may read the thread, all information is useful.
> 
> John


Good point John. I'm not sure how I would have taken it, had this cropped up with my first dog and my mentors told me to go back to the yard and start over!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

JS said:


> Seems like the ground would be littered with birds ... no way they will remember them. Just run out there in the general direction till they get a nose full, right?
> 
> JS


If they are all in the same place that would be just like pile work right?;-)..and if they were in different locations that would be just like 'Waggon wheel' Right ?;-)
and if they had some in one place and some in the other ,but the one you wanted was somewhere else that would be like 3 card trick ,right? 
and if the cripple was in amongst these birds littered about the place , How would You do it? JS.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

How do they get those birds into the air? Is it all human beaters, or do they use Spaniels?

Very impressive steadiness!-Paul


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> El Pronto ...John  If not sooner.


I wondered if you send dogs in amidst the shooting. 
Is that what's going on in video with another dog hunting at tree 50 yds back?


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Splash_em said:


> Somebody has been paying attention!


I'm trying Richard. My daddy told me it's one thing to be ignorant about something when you start it. It's another thing entirely to remain that way.

I am sure I am not the only one who has ever felt this way, but I really feel bad for my dog. He has a lot more ability than his handler had the ability to correctly harness.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> That's the common problem on this forum. By the time a newbie post an issue they are having, they are way past the easy fix point in training. I hate to squash their interest, so I usually address the OP's question and situation as it stands right now, while pointing out how I made mistakes with my first dog or two that I learned from and changed my ways with my next dog. I know when I was training my first dog, the furthest thing in my mind was the thought that these are good lessons for dealing with my next dog. I was totally focused on training the dog I had, but in the greater context of helping others who may read the thread, all information is useful.
> 
> John


It's very difficult to truly appreciate a lot of what folks tell you about dog training until you have experienced a few things and have seen the problems that you unwittingly allowed manifest themselves. I have spent the last year (since we ran a few tests) saying "So THAT'S what they were really trying to tell me." You can intellectually understand that they are different at a test than they are in the yard, but you don't really have any idea until your 110 yard dog comes out of the box at a test more like a high-tension transmission line. In that state of mind, that "slight movement" that you allowed in the yard becomes a creep or a break.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> It's very difficult to truly appreciate a lot of what folks tell you about dog training until you have experienced a few things and have seen the problems that you unwittingly allowed manifest themselves. I have spent the last year (since we ran a few tests) saying "So THAT'S what they were really trying to tell me." You can intellectually understand that they are different at a test than they are in the yard, but you don't really have any idea until your 110 yard dog comes out of the box at a test more like a high-tension transmission line. In that state of mind, that "slight movement" that you allowed in the yard becomes a creep or a break.


One observation I've made along these lines is that the more I move, the more my dog moves. People kept telling me this over and over. Finally it sunk in that the movements I needed to make to push-pull my dog (so she would look at the right mark) need to be very, very slight and subtle (most of the time). I now consciously keep my feet planted, mostly I just need to shift my weight from leg to leg to push-pull the dog. The dog is much more stable.

So possibly many new handlers are like me, they are moving too much to push-pull the dog to the marks, and their exaggerated movements contribute to excessive creeping. Just a thought.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mitty said:


> One observation I've made along these lines is that the more I move, the more my dog moves. People kept telling me this over and over. Finally it sunk in that the movements I needed to make to push-pull my dog (so she would look at the right mark) need to be very, very slight and subtle (most of the time). I now consciously keep my feet planted, mostly I just need to shift my weight from leg to leg to push-pull the dog. The dog is much more stable.
> 
> So possibly many new handlers are like me, they are moving too much to push-pull the dog to the marks, and their exaggerated movements contribute to excessive creeping. Just a thought.


If you have an iPad or iPad mini, hand it to a training buddy to take videos of you and your dog from the holding blinds to the line and through the whole test. It is very helpful to watch yourself. Sometimes you are even able to praise your work, but you usually see something that can be improved on. As a bonus, I was doing the rounds with my therapy dog and had my Ipad in had, so was able to show patients what their work is like. Most people are very impressed.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

mitty said:


> One observation I've made along these lines is that the more I move, the more my dog moves. People kept telling me this over and over. Finally it sunk in that the movements I needed to make to push-pull my dog (so she would look at the right mark) need to be very, very slight and subtle (most of the time). I now consciously keep my feet planted, mostly I just need to shift my weight from leg to leg to push-pull the dog. The dog is much more stable.
> 
> So possibly many new handlers are like me, they are moving too much to push-pull the dog to the marks, and their exaggerated movements contribute to excessive creeping. Just a thought.


Don't take this the wrong way but by limiting your movements on line to suit the dog your avoiding the problem, just because you take a step forward or back doesn't mean your dog should, sit still means sit, head movement but not the rear end. I would work on it encouraging the dog to move and then correct it.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

There's a god drill on Fowl Dawgs 4 called the 180 deg. drill where the dog almost has too look over his shoulder to see the mark without picking up his butt, good drill to teach the dog to keep his butt planted, with alot of pushing and pulling from the handler.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

My mentor back then told me to learn and breath the basics before moving on.....Meaning doing lots and lots of singles and don't worry about the rest. The rest will come when you and dog are ready. This is not about the who is doing what, but what you are doing and being good at it. No rush to try and be at the level of another trainer....Just saying...Focus task at hand only.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> Don't take this the wrong way but by limiting your movements on line to suit the dog your avoiding the problem, just because you take a step forward or back doesn't mean your dog should, sit still means sit, head movement but not the rear end. I would work on it encouraging the dog to move and then correct it.


You've totally missed the point.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

John Robinson said:


> If you have an iPad or iPad mini, hand it to a training buddy to take videos of you and your dog from the holding blinds to the line and through the whole test. It is very helpful to watch yourself. Sometimes you are even able to praise your work, but you usually see something that can be improved on. As a bonus, I was doing the rounds with my therapy dog and had my Ipad in had, so was able to show patients what their work is like. Most people are very impressed.


Thanks, John.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

mitty said:


> You've totally missed the point.



I don't believe so but explain if you want to.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> I don't believe so but explain if you want to.


I actually had a longer more thoughtful response composed but got logged off and lost it...so I settled for the short answer. I'm tired and don't want to rewrite but here's me, Daffy Duck, do you think my dog is gonna easily figure out what she is supposed to do? 










Hopefully a pictures worth a thousand words...


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

mitty said:


> I actually had a longer more thoughtful response composed but got logged off and lost it...so I settled for the short answer. I'm tired and don't want to rewrite but here's me, Daffy Duck, do you think my dog is gonna easily figure out what she is supposed to do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So awesome, Renee!!!!!! That's exactly what most of us newbs look like!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I do wonder about the complexity of files in your brain... You must have one hell of a memory to pull that one out of your memory!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> If you have an iPad or iPad mini, hand it to a training buddy to take videos of you and your dog from the holding blinds to the line and through the whole test. It is very helpful to watch yourself. Sometimes you are even able to praise your work, but you usually see something that can be improved on. As a bonus, I was doing the rounds with my therapy dog and had my Ipad in had, so was able to show patients what their work is like. Most people are very impressed.


And just think! you can post them here and get all manner of critiques!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> I actually had a longer more thoughtful response composed but got logged off and lost it...so I settled for the short answer. I'm tired and don't want to rewrite but here's me, Daffy Duck, do you think my dog is gonna easily figure out what she is supposed to do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good Renee!!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> *It's very difficult to truly appreciate a lot of what folks tell you about dog training until you have experienced a few things* and have seen the problems that you unwittingly allowed manifest themselves. I have spent the last year (since we ran a few tests) saying "So THAT'S what they were really trying to tell me." You can intellectually understand that they are different at a test than they are in the yard, but you don't really have any idea until your 110 yard dog comes out of the box at a test more like a high-tension transmission line. In that state of mind, that "slight movement" that you allowed in the yard becomes a creep or a break.


This is true. I also believe it is a really good idea to link up with a mentor, experienced amateur or pro to assist, if you are having issues rather than digging the big hole. Even if it is your first dog or not. Lots of time to train your dog and in doing it have fun!!! IMHO


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

RookieTrainer said:


> I'm trying Richard. My daddy told me it's one thing to be ignorant about something when you start it. It's another thing entirely to remain that way.
> 
> I am sure I am not the only one who has ever felt this way, but I really feel bad for my dog. He has a lot more ability than his handler had the ability to correctly harness.


I think Jimmy is a very nice dog!! He has taught you a lot. I am really looking forward to seeing what you can do with your next dog!


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