# Carrying lines on blinds



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I would like some suggestions on how to improve my dogs ability to carry lines on blinds at field trial distances. For example: I give a right angle back, the dog turns properly, moves in the right direction but does not dig in and carry that line, causing another whistle and a choppy looking blind. 

Thanks


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Um central IL? Best thing is to go train with Charlie Hines.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Breck said:


> Um central IL? Best thing is to go train with Charlie Hines.


Charlie is close to chicago. Quite a ways from nancy. and Charlie likes to do his own thing.understandable considering he has quite a few nice dogs, and hires his own help. My guess Nancy is looking for suggestions she can do on her own.


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

I'm pumped about this thread.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Well, come on, I'd love to hear some answers!


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

This is a drill I do from the time the pup is in transition 'til I retire the dog. I'll do it 3-4 times a week with the transition dog until they are smooth on it at this first field. Then I'll take it to another field and do it again. It'll take ~2 weeks in the first field to become smooth. Then maybe a week in another field to become smooth. With my big dogs I might only do it once a week and miss a week now and then but I do do it all their competitive lives.

First I'll send to each pile from my side usually an over then the angle to the same side then the other over and then the angle to that side and finally the back pile. 5 total sends from my side. I'll then leave the dog on the line and walk ~ 10 yards away from them and cast to each pile. With youngsters I do it in order over, angle, then straight back all to either the left or the right. Then I'll do the same to the other side. Once they've been smooth on this drill for a few weeks at different fields I'll start mixing up the casts, that is left over followed by a right back etc. I don't burn, get mad, or show temper on this drill It's hard and all those piles and old blinds are distractions to the dog. I will not let them take a wrong cast but stop them as soon as I see them taking the wrong cast. I then repeat the cast. If I get a 2nd missed cast I'll move the dog up towards the pile simplifying it. I do not pound and pound on this drill in one day expecting them to get it right the first day. I only line each pile once and cast to each pile once except the back pile which gets a right and a left straight back. Altogether I only put out 11 bumpers per each time I do it. I figure I do it enough the casts will come in time and they always have.

I learned this drill at Jim Gonia's McKenna kennel when I had a youngster there. I brought her home for the summer and Jim or his assistant told me to keep this drill going during the summer. I set it up twice a week for the pup and since I was setting it up anyway also did my older dog, my first retriever, too. My first dog wouldn't hold a cast worth a darn. After a couple of weeks of doing this drill I realized that what used to be 7 or 8 whistle blinds with him were now becoming 3 and 4 whistle blinds. He was taking better casts and holding them longer. 

You have to keep a high standard of casting in the field. You give an angle insist on it. You give an over do not accept an angle or an over and then a scallop. I do literal casting and insist the dog take the literal cast in training.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Thank You Howard! Thats exactly what I wanted.


----------



## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Howard N said:


> You have to keep a high standard of casting in the field. You give an angle insist on it. You give an over do not accept an angle or an over and then a scallop.


I find this is key in most all casting drill and very important. 

I too do a drill very similar to Howards once a week with good results. I also use a ladder type drill on angles to get them really stretched out.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Howard as a follow up to your drill.
Once your dog is more advance you can reuse this same drill but instead of intersection 10 yards out make it 200 yards. Only difference is you have a helper sitting near intersection to receive dog and sit him back on the spot. Gives you a lot of long distance casting work without dog coming in.


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Funny Howard, I was just doing that drill last night with Mick, just starting on it with him. I learned it from Ed Krueger. We used to go do it out on frozen snow covered ponds in the winter. I started thinking about this drill again last week when I didn't get an over off of a dirt mound that I needed in the Amateur water blind the weekend before last. I was in good company I guess...


----------



## Ernie (Sep 29, 2010)

I am trying to understand the start of this drill. I see 5 piles. 2 bumbers per pile except the back pile making it 11 total bumpers like you said. Then you send from your side the first five. When you send the dog to each pile, you line line and give the back command to each pile correct? You said over , but should I assume you are just calling the piles a the 90 the "over piles". Then step back 10 yards and cast, over, and angle back, left back, right back, angle back and over.
Thank you,
Ernie


----------



## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't necessarily believe that the line is the problem. I would tend to think that it is a factor that the dog is not fighting, i.e. wind, side hill, water, etc or suction that he is giving into, that is more of a problem. Teaching dogs to over come factors will teach them to carry better lines.


----------



## artner24 (Mar 6, 2012)

Just for clarification when you say field are you talking like mowed short grass field like a yard where they can almost if not see the bumpers or a short cover hay field?


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

For this dog the problem begins with not carrying the cast/line. I see it on flat featureless fields, short stuff he is fine on, when he gets out there it becomes very obvious. I own this problem, I have never done long casting drills.


----------



## cdalt (May 9, 2011)

dexdoolittle said:


> I don't necessarily believe that the line is the problem. I would tend to think that it is a factor that the dog is not fighting, i.e. wind, side hill, water, etc or suction that he is giving into, that is more of a problem. Teaching dogs to over come factors will teach them to carry better lines.


I agree with Dex. My first thought would be walking baseball where you can practice those casts and add factors.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

cdalt said:


> I agree with Dex. My first thought would be walking baseball where you can practice those casts and add factors.


Walking baseball would be good also. The bottom line as with any drill is that you have to carry it over to the field and PRACTICE!!! Blind work takes lots of practice and some handlers along with some dogs never really get that good at it. For a dog that has "some" experience under their belt,,, I would cast, stop the dog when it falls out of the cast with a nick and repeat the cast until I get the cast that I want and the dog holds it. It won't be perfect for the first few days but you should see improvement and by the end of the week your dog "should" be taking and holding casts quite well.

Angie


----------



## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

? why do you need the overs to be 100yards. I seems like overkill to me.

Bert


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm with Dex and Angie. It doesn't do a damn bit of good to have the dog take a nice cast and then give in to cover, water, terrain or wind. I do that 5 legged lining and casting drill enough, in different places and different wind conditions, so I know my dog ablolutely *knows* what the cast means. If they don't carry it in spite of factors they get another whistle and another cast. Corrections depend on the dog and her experience level.

PS. I've never been a fan of walking baseball. I've done it some but prefer the above drill.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Walking baseball would be good also. The bottom line as with any drill is that you have to carry it over to the field and PRACTICE!!! Blind work takes lots of practice and some handlers along with some dogs never really get that good at it. For a dog that has "some" experience under their belt,,, I would cast, stop the dog when it falls out of the cast with a nick and repeat the cast until I get the cast that I want and the dog holds it. It won't be perfect for the first few days but you should see improvement and by the end of the week your dog "should" be taking and holding casts quite well.
> 
> Angie



So, Angie,
Correct me if I am wrong.

SOMETIMES your blind is finished because of dogs refusal to take casts. THEN after that determination,, You work on the cast,, that particular cast,, and not so much the blind.

You work on Handeling the dog.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Pattern blinds?


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> So, Angie,
> Correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> SOMETIMES your blind is finished because of dogs refusal to take casts. THEN after that determination,, You work on the cast,, that particular cast,, and not so much the blind.
> ...


Yes,,,, the blind is forgotten and we work just on the cast until I get that cast correctly. If I feel the dog is stiffer on one side then the other I will go to a drill like Howards to soften the dogs stiff side and make it more comfortable taking and holding that cast.

Angie


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

mitty said:


> Pattern blinds?


Ya,,, you could do that too but you won't get the mileage out of it like you would with Howards drill.

Angie


----------



## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

Great topic and some great input. Keep it going!!


----------



## artner24 (Mar 6, 2012)

rbr said:


> ? why do you need the overs to be 100yards. I seems like overkill to me.
> 
> Bert


Is there a reason to make them 100 yds or can it be done with shorter overs about the length of the three back piles?


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

artner24 said:


> Is there a reason to make them 100 yds or can it be done with shorter overs about the length of the three back piles?


Believe me, you won't get a 100 yard over while running a real blind, especially at a trial when they're more amped than normal. 

I don't have enough fields to set up 100 yard overs every place I do it. But!!!!! I want the long overs to get the dogs used to going over long distances. You almost never need an over when running a blind but when you do a scallop can kill you over a dike, hit that piece of cover or terrain, or something. If you get 100 yard overs in a drill you can get an honest 10 yard over in a trial and that can save your bacon. I know my first dog only gave me 5 or 6 yard overs before he's scallop before I started doing this drill with him when he was 4 years old. His overs improved by a factor of 3 or 4 after a month of this drill 2 times a week.

If I didn't have a field I could set up 100 yard overs, I'd set up what I could. Running 50 yard overs in this drill is better than not running this drill at all. IMO anyway, I never actually had to do them that short.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

artner24 said:


> Is there a reason to make them 100 yds or can it be done with shorter overs about the length of the three back piles?


Yes , the reason(or at least one of them) is you are telling the dog to take that cast until you either step on a bird or I give you another whistle...if you go with a pre determined distance, the dog will either anticipate another correction, or slow down and hunt short, kind of a sideways Escalon shuffle...


----------



## artner24 (Mar 6, 2012)

makes sense thanks for the explanation


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

These have been great answers. As I see it, the original drill with 5 casts posted is extremely helpful in getting the casts straightened out. I run a similar drill, but I am going to adjust mine to be more like the one posted. Once you nail down this drill in a few flat fields, you could move it to where some of the casts deal with more factors, even water. 

This is the advantage of walking baseball, though. You can run any cast through any factor. When we run walking baseball, we do 8 casts (left back, right back. left angle back, right angle back, left over, right over, left hunt in, right hunt in) every time. If a dog shows me an issue with one of the casts, I will re-run that cast before moving on to the next. 

I'm hoping we get some more great advice on this thread! A lot of folks have yet to weigh in.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Bartona500 said:


> These have been great answers. As I see it, the original drill with 5 casts posted is extremely helpful in getting the casts straightened out. I run a similar drill, but I am going to adjust mine to be more like the one posted. Once you nail down this drill in a few flat fields, you could move it to where some of the casts deal with more factors, even water.
> 
> This is the advantage of walking baseball, though. You can run any cast through any factor. When we run walking baseball, we do 8 casts (left back, right back. left angle back, right angle back, left over, right over, left hunt in, right hunt in) every time. If a dog shows me an issue with one of the casts, I will re-run that cast before moving on to the next.
> 
> I'm hoping we get some more great advice on this thread! A lot of folks have yet to weigh in.


This issue is not that hard to address.. Barton how much more do you need?? How many more people do you need to weigh in to validate what has already been advised??

It's pretty simple. Not rocket science.

Angie


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

I'm not looking for any more validation. Anything added would not be a validation, just further ideas. Maybe someone has another drill or something that has worked for them. Several of these "training help" threads go on for 6-7 pages. I'm sorry, but I'd rather people keep adding ideas to a thread like this than read 10 pages of arguing over whether a British Hunt Test Amateur Dog is better than a FC American Pro Dog who only eats such and such... you get the idea. 

Just wanted folks to keep weighing in with training ideas on a training thread... Sorry!


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Bartona500 said:


> I'm not looking for any more validation. Anything added would not be a validation, just further ideas. Maybe someone has another drill or something that has worked for them. Several of these "training help" threads go on for 6-7 pages. I'm sorry, but I'd rather people keep adding ideas to a thread like this than read 10 pages of arguing over whether a British Hunt Test Amateur Dog is better than a FC American Pro Dog who only eats such and such... you get the idea.
> 
> Just wanted folks to keep weighing in with training ideas on a training thread... Sorry!


Feed your dog Euk 30/20 and it will take your casts just fine.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Bartona500 said:


> I'm not looking for any more validation. Anything added would not be a validation, just further ideas. Maybe someone has another drill or something that has worked for them. Several of these "training help" threads go on for 6-7 pages. I'm sorry, but I'd rather people keep adding ideas to a thread like this than read 10 pages of arguing over whether a British Hunt Test Amateur Dog is better than a FC American Pro Dog who only eats such and such... you get the idea.
> 
> Just wanted folks to keep weighing in with training ideas on a training thread... Sorry!


Your forgiven...  

My point is that there is only so much in the way of drill work. The concept of holding a cast is a simple one. There is only so many ways to skin a cat. Think about the concept that has been asked to be addressed?? There's no way that this particular issue would need to be addressed with 7 pages of advice. It's not that kind of problem. Unless it gets derailed which is pretty typical...

What are you looking for in addition to what has been given in the way of advice? Something different? How?, What?

Discussion is good but making it into something bigger then it is well,,,, rather silly.

FWIW

Angie


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

mitty said:


> Feed your dog Euk 30/20 and it will take your casts just fine.


Of course.... Why didn't you bring this up sooner.... :razz:

Angie


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

WHEW.. I already feed Euk 30/20! I knew it couldn't be the training that was straightening all these casts out... glad to finally know what it was. 

I get what you're saying, Angie. I had just never run the drill exactly like the picture was posted. I'm always hoping for new pictures or videos (Wayne) that show something I don't know or something better than what I do. I'm still new at this (training 3 years now). 

Speaking of derailing the convo, you live in Aubrey? I used to live in Dallas, but I wasn't in to training dogs back them. I wish I had been, seems there are a ton of great trainers in the area.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Bartona500 said:


> WHEW.. I already feed Euk 30/20! I knew it couldn't be the training that was straightening all these casts out... glad to finally know what it was.
> 
> I get what you're saying, Angie. I had just never run the drill exactly like the picture was posted. I'm always hoping for new pictures or videos (Wayne) that show something I don't know or something better than what I do. I'm still new at this (training 3 years now).
> 
> Speaking of derailing the convo, you live in Aubrey? I used to live in Dallas, but I wasn't in to training dogs back them. I wish I had been, seems there are a ton of great trainers in the area.


I figured you were new to all this retriever training stuff.

I personally don't use a drill to work on casting. I just practice A Lot!!!! I don't have the time flexibility an amateur has. Though poor Howard has to deal with the weather...:razz:

Sorry you had to leave Dallas for Mississippi?? Bloom where you're planted.

Angie


----------



## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Angie you missed a lot of fun and good food this past weekend at Lonesome Dove.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I can't find the picture!! Its not showing up. I was going to call Howard about this drill and now he is gone--I am still in shock. Can someone help out with the picture?


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Nancy, I didn't read back to see which one you're talking about, but if it's Howard lining drill, he had it on his facebook page. I will try to get it and post it.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Was it this one, Nancy?


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

That is it!! Thank you so much. I could not remember the distances between the back piles and I couldn't find it in my notes. Thanks for taking the time to look it up.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> That is it!! Thank you so much. I could not remember the distances between the back piles and I couldn't find it in my notes. Thanks for taking the time to look it up.


Wow. This is the very drill that I called Howard to discuss within the last couple weeks. I am glad I got to talk live with him one last time. I did so because Bill was mentioning the drill and I wanted to talk through it live.

The timing is interesting. I was talking with a Field Trialer the other day who was just telling me how his/her household tries to always say "goodbye" with a smile, a hug, etc., parting ways on a happy note. The reason was that you never know what will happen after you say "goodbye". 

I'm on day two of trying to wrap my mind around Howard being gone. Life is precious. Life is brief. Howard, I hope to see you in Heaven one day.

Chris


----------



## Nik (Jul 8, 2005)

Howard N said:


> This is a drill I do from the time the pup is in transition 'til I retire the dog. I'll do it 3-4 times a week with the transition dog until they are smooth on it at this first field.  Then I'll take it to another field and do it again. It'll take ~2 weeks in the first field to become smooth. Then maybe a week in another field to become smooth. With my big dogs I might only do it once a week and miss a week now and then but I do do it all their competitive lives.
> 
> First I'll send to each pile from my side usually an over then the angle to the same side then the other over and then the angle to that side and finally the back pile. 5 total sends from my side. I'll then leave the dog on the line and walk ~ 10 yards away from them and cast to each pile. With youngsters I do it in order over, angle, then straight back all to either the left or the right. Then I'll do the same to the other side. Once they've been smooth on this drill for a few weeks at different fields I'll start mixing up the casts, that is left over followed by a right back etc. I don't burn, get mad, or show temper on this drill It's hard and all those piles and old blinds are distractions to the dog. I will not let them take a wrong cast but stop them as soon as I see them taking the wrong cast. I then repeat the cast. If I get a 2nd missed cast I'll move the dog up towards the pile simplifying it. I do not pound and pound on this drill in one day expecting them to get it right the first day. I only line each pile once and cast to each pile once except the back pile which gets a right and a left straight back. Altogether I only put out 11 bumpers per each time I do it. I figure I do it enough the casts will come in time and they always have.
> 
> ...


 
I learned a very similar drill from a friend. He would start with 5 white bumpers-arranged in a semi-circle about 3 yards from the center-basically a left & right over bumper angle back left and right, and straight back. He kept the bumpers tight to encourage quick, precise turning. He would run the dog from his side starting at the left over, and work his way around the semi-circle-and the back. He'd then step away and leave the dog in the middle and cast left over, left angle back, left over. Once the dog got all 3 cast correctly he would move on. Next left angle back, left back, left angle back. Right back, right angle back, right back. Right angle back, right over, right angle back. Then repeat the drill moving around rage arc the opposite direction. The key is not to move on until you get 3 correct casts in a row.


----------



## Nik (Jul 8, 2005)

Pals said:


> I would like some suggestions on how to improve my dogs ability to carry lines on blinds at field trial distances. For example: I give a right angle back, the dog turns properly, moves in the right direction but does not dig in and carry that line, causing another whistle and a choppy looking blind.
> 
> Thanks


It sounds to me like your dog is not holding lines against factors. I personally don't think that casting drills alone are going to fix that. I would spend time running lining drills similar to what Lardy calls tune up drills. There are ways to simplify these drills to improve a dogs ability to handle running against factors.


----------



## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

so are these piles identified first? cold? white bumpers? orange bumpers? buckets? i have seen a version of this drill before but they used white buckets at the pile to help the dog understand the cast. i myself didnt use the "bucket" routine when teaching blinds but i know some do


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Chris, would you be willing to share the gist of your conversation with Howard about the drill?


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Chris, would you be willing to share the gist of your conversation with Howard about the drill?


Your post #39 does a good job of summarizing the drill portion of the discussion.

Howard was always a friendly man and shared some great knowledge with me over the years.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Here's one which Howard went out of his way to Google, draw up and share- Made for Linda W- and shared w me because it's my backyard and wanted to ask questions about how the terrain really was on ground level.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

In Cherylon Lovelands book. She does basically what Howard drew, and what Miss Pals wanted. Loveland calls it the HANDLING Wagon wheel. (Not lining Wagon Wheel)

In her book,, it shows the order in which you throw each bumper, very important.

It teaches angle backs, straight backs, overs, angle ins, straight ins.

She does this drill at the end of the TT.

At first the drill is relativly close, but it seems as though you can increase distances as Howard described as the dog progresses.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Thank you. I am ready to start my young dog on Howards drill. Thanks for the additional drills and suggestions.


----------



## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

I cannot see the original drawing of the drill Howard posted. Is it just me or is the pic gone? It's something I could certainly use.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

weathered said:


> I cannot see the original drawing of the drill Howard posted. Is it just me or is the pic gone? It's something I could certainly use.


It's here:


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Now,
Just Imagine the pic above is the Upper half of a typical wagon wheel. You start at closer distances, and you have a designated order in which youthrow the bumpers to teach the casts. You eventually get to the point you dont throw bumpers, and just cast the dog.. The dog has now learned the upper half of the Handling wagon wheel.

Now you move to the bottom half. You leave dog sitting in the center,90 degrees to the overs, and facing to what will be the straight come in location. You throw bumpers to the straight come in location, and the angle ins. You are outside the circle standing in front of the straight come in location..

You then teach the casts with the same specified order of throw, untill the dog understandsthe casts. 

Eventually you will be able to stand outside the circle with bumpers at each location,, and have the dog reliably cast to each place.

You have taught angle backs,, many overs, angle ins,STRAIGHT BACKS,, and STRAIGHT COME INS.

Its a neat drill, and you can eventually vary you distances..

My dog LOVES running this.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Remember, when you start, the distances are not that great. You work up to those gradually.

I dont know though if the drill will Guarentee your dog will take an over when he is sitting 200 yrd from you, and carry it for 100 yrds though.. I think thats askin a LOT..

I think that comes from running LOTS of blinds..

I'm gonna go run some right now..

Gooser


----------



## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks for the diagram and the further explanation.


----------

