# Breeder / Buyer Question - Undescended Testicle



## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

I am picking up a pup in a week. The breeder emailed that none of the 4 males have testicles that can be felt at 6 weeks. 

There are numerous threads on here that discuss this and I have read a fair amount. So for the background:
I will run hunt tests.
I hadn't intended to neuter unless there was something unforeseen.
I don't realistically think I would stud him out but there is a chance. 
This is an above average breeding with an above average price. 

So, my question is, is there any responsibility from the breeder's perspective?

My initial thought was this: If the balls drop in a few months, its all good. If they don't drop by 12-16 months, then I would ask for the difference in the cost of a standard neuter to a cryptorchid procedure. The difference only. 

I figure I am invested quite a bit in the pup via time on waiting lists and missed litters and at this time a plane ticket. So, I am hesitant to back out but it does create concern. 

Let me know if this is within the "unwritten rules" that breeders have or will it have me blacklisted. 

Thanks 

Brian


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

I purchased what I though was a top field bred Golden. We had to have the pup sent via airline. That all went very well. When getting a new pup, we always have the vet check him over within a few days. Our vet discovered that one of his testicles had not dropped. He was not purchased to breed, but only as a hunt test/ hunting companion. I was disturbed by this as we relied on the breeder to provide us with a dog in good physical shape. If they had warned us of the problem, we could have made a decision. This dog had to be checked by a vet before going on a commercial flight, and I doubt that vet missed the problem. So, I am relatively sure that the breeder knew he had this problem, but choose not to advise us. 

After we found out, I called the breeder and asked them if they were aware, they said no. After a discussion, I asked that they consider a partial refund or replace the dog. They told me to forget it and offered to discuss it anymore. We kept the dog, eventually having him neutered. He has been healthy, and a good dog for our purposes, but I was still really upset about how the breeder handled this!


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

brian breuer said:


> I am picking up a pup in a week. The breeder emailed that none of the 4 males have testicles that can be felt at 6 weeks.
> 
> There are numerous threads on here that discuss this and I have read a fair amount. So for the background:
> I will run hunt tests.
> ...


I'm not sure one can even tell at 6 weeks if the testicles are dropped. I could be wrong. I have an 8 month male pup now that in the last month or two I didn't know for sure he had dropped both his nuts. Unless your going to go pick the pup out yourself I would tell the breeder to send the pup they have picked for you, and not worry about it yet. Have you asked the breeder what their remedy (if any) would be for an undecesnded testicle if your that worried over it?


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

6 weeks is early. I just sold a 7 week male and he had one in and one out. I wouldn't be worried about it now. The reality is if you spend enough time and money to get him to stud-worthy hunt test titles and there is an anatomical problem there, it can be corrected with a relatively simple procedure. The vet bill on that will be much, much, much less than what you'll spend on just fuel transporting him to tests.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Correct me if I am wrong but if a testicle does not drop, is that not considered a genetic defect? If it is a genetic defect would a breeder want to stand that dog at stud? 
On the other hand, with the pups in question. I don't think it will have anything to do with field performance one way or the other. 
Don and Crew


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

ks_hunting said:


> 6 weeks is early. I just sold a 7 week male and he had one in and one out. I wouldn't be worried about it now. The reality is if you spend enough time and money to get him to stud-worthy hunt test titles and there is an anatomical problem there, it can be corrected with a relatively simple procedure. The vet bill on that will be much, much, much less than what you'll spend on just fuel transporting him to tests.



Thanks for the responses. It is early but most articles I've read, they should be able to be felt by 6 weeks. It is also in all four males in the litter. I am flying to get the dog and will bring him back in as a carry on. 

In my opinion, if they don't drop the dog shouldn't be bred. Most articles I've read do link it to a genetic issue but there is no test. 

I haven't discussed this yet with the breeder as I just found out yesterday. I had wanted to get a sense of the issue. Breeders have a lot of time and effort and $ invested and can be easily offended.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

brian breuer said:


> Thanks for the responses. It is early but most articles I've read, they should be able to be felt by 6 weeks. It is also in all four males in the litter. I am flying to get the dog and will bring him back in as a carry on.
> 
> In my opinion, if they don't drop the dog shouldn't be bred. Most articles I've read do link it to a genetic issue but there is no test.
> 
> I haven't discussed this yet with the breeder as I just found out yesterday. I had wanted to get a sense of the issue. Breeders have a lot of time and effort and $ invested and can be easily offended.


Check with your airline. In-cabin travel with many of the known airlines now require the pups to be 10 weeks.. and air cargo is 8 weeks. By the time your pup is at the right the age for transport, it should be obvious whether the testicles have dropped. Personally, whether the breeder gets offended or not, I would have the conversation with the breeder and documented. Also, I would want a written statement either in the health certificate by the vet or the purchase contract indicating both testicles were present on examination by the vet and the date of the exam.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

From a web search: AskAVet "Most normal puppies will have two testicles in the scrotum by 6 weeks of age. However, in some dogs it can take up to 4 months to appear. In rare cases, it will take up to 7 months. If one or both of the testicles are not in the scrotum by 7 months then it is extremely unlikely that it will appear."


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

My Hudson only dropped one testicle. It didn't make any difference to his performance. At about 9 yo we had him neutered on the advice of our vet. When he was very young our vet told me that at nine we should have him neutered to prevent cancer. He is now 13.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

At least the breeder told you. A friend recently had two male pups shipped in and found only one testicle. Spoke wth the vet who did the health exam and he said he noticed it. The breeder claimed ignorance.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

labsforme said:


> From a web search: AskAVet "Most normal puppies will have two testicles in the scrotum by 6 weeks of age. However, in *some dogs it can take up to 4 months to appear. In rare cases, it will take up to 7 months.* If one or both of the testicles are not in the scrotum by 7 months then it is extremely unlikely that it will appear."


+ 1

Not uncommon at all.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

I would not sweat the issue and lose sleep over it... a friend bought a pup to have his Vet tell him one nut had not dropped on his initial exam.. the breeder had not noticed or failed to tell him. 

Around the ninth month when he was starting to get worried... there it was... it dropped. 

At least this breeder is being honest... if for some reason you need to neuter at a later date, maybe a higher cost for the surgery... but if this breding is something you like and have no breeding dreams, I'd still get the pup.. 

There is no perfect pup ....


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Four males, and NONE have testicles...no testicles at all...dropped? That sounds pretty odd to me. Has this been verified by a veterinarian? 

I once bought a pup that ended up with just one dropped. Contacted the breeder who said "sh!t happens". At the time, I didn't plan to breed anyway so it wasn't too big a deal and I just had him neutered.

Myself, as a breeder, if someone specifically stated they were buying a pup for potential breeding purposes, I would put something in my contract about it for them and I wouldn't sell them a puppy unless it was veterinarian-verified that it had two descended before it left here. But if it's a hunting/hunt test/family dog and the buyer said that was their intended purpose, I wouldn't cover it.

Best to discuss your thoughts as to their financial responsibility with your breeder and make a decision from there.


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

Thanks for all the responses. I think that with everything considered, I'm just going to get the pup, hope for the best, and deal with it if needed. 

I'm too far in with the plane ticket and more importantly, almost a year wait for a really nice breeding.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I've bred 19 litters to date and of ~120 puppies, only one had a retained testicle at 8 wks. It was down by his next shots at 10-11 wks, but I fully disclosed it to the owners (pet / hunting home) in advance. 
I generally can feel them at 6-7 wks, so maybe you should wait another week to make your decision. I always rely on my vet for the final word at well checks, 7.5 to 8 wks. 
Hopefully the breeder would understand, but I'm w/ Sharon, 4 males w/ the same problem would be very troubling to me.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

If you're buying a male pup with a full registration, it ought to have 2 balls, or you ought to get a lower price, at least enough to cover the cost of the medical processes needed to deal with it. If it doesn't drop, they have to go find it and get it out anyway, and that's generally more than a simple neuter, and it's harder on the dog as well.

You may have no aspirations of breeding your dog, but if it's nicely bred, and you put the time and effort into getting a hunt test title on it or more, and if he has all the clearances that would otherwise allow him to be a nice stud, it would be nice to be able to breed him, and with only one ball, that isn't an option. There's a difference in the value of a titled dog with one ball (or neutered) as well. I know you don't plan to breed him based on what you've stated, but from a purely financial standpoint, a male pup with one ball is not worth the same amount as the same pup with 2 balls. On top of that, you also have a required medical procedure that will need to be performed to deal with it.

I'd discuss it with the breeder and agree on how you want to handle it.

In terms of performance as a retriever/hunting dog, it doesn't make any difference.


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## fishin444 (Apr 23, 2012)

I would have to agree with Sharon P post. The breeder should take some responsibility.


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## nogie1717 (Sep 15, 2014)

I couldn't help myself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwhObnjadmw


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

they still breed ok with only one? I know guy who has only one but has three kids. Are dogs the same as people that way?


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

It is VERY highly heritable and a dog with an Undescended testicle (cryptorchid) should not be bred. 

Six weeks is still early. All my pups get a vet exam at 8 weeks and they are checked for then. I don't even start checking until 7.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

suepuff said:


> It is VERY highly heritable and a dog with an Undescended testicle (cryptorchid) should not be bred.
> 
> Six weeks is still early. All my pups get a vet exam at 8 weeks and they are checked for then. I don't even start checking until 7.


does one ball make other problems when bred? like eyes too close together and funny teeth hahahaha
funny song remind me of the dog talk 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f6Y0vD0_Vg


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Yes, there are serious concerns, other than just breeding.
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cancer/c_dg_sertoli_cell_tumor?page=show


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

brian breuer said:


> I am picking up a pup in a week. The breeder emailed that none of the 4 males have testicles that can be felt at 6 weeks......


 By the time the pup is 8 weeks old, it should have both testicles fully descended.

However, even if they are, there is a bit of a trick to being able to feel them. 
When you lay the pup on it's back, it's testicles seem to disappear.

So, the way my Vet showed me to check, is to start with the pup standing up. 
Then, with one finger placed gently on the scrotum, use another finger placed an inch or so forward of the scrotum, to apply a little upward pressure, and slide back while you feel for the testicles.

That trick keeps the "goods in the bag", so that you can tell for sure.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

copterdoc said:


> By the time the pup is 8 weeks old, it should have both testicles fully descended.
> 
> However, even if they are, there is a bit of a trick to being able to feel them.
> When you lay the pup on it's back, it's testicles seem to disappear.
> ...


i think a girl tried that trick on me once too. you sure you at the vet office to learn that hahaha


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I've seen a similar way with the pup's back against your chest, head up scrotum down. Hold your finger under scrotum and rub your thumb under him towards your finger.

I haven't done all that many but could always feel them even in little pups.

It's a relief to know they're descended when you can feel them but I'm sure some dogs take longer and will descend later.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Most of the pups that I examine at 6 weeks don't have both testicles down. All have had them at 4 months. Don't worry about it.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

Sharon Potter said:


> Four males, and NONE have testicles...no testicles at all...dropped? That sounds pretty odd to me. Has this been verified by a veterinarian?
> 
> I once bought a pup that ended up with just one dropped. Contacted the breeder who said "sh!t happens". At the time, I didn't plan to breed anyway so it wasn't too big a deal and I just had him neutered.
> 
> ...


would financial responsablity only be half because one ball not two? I did read and learn more today again because Copterdocks webpage. I hope to learn more before I spend lots of money. sorry for bad jokes too but I laughed out loud lol haha


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Don Lietzau said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but if a testicle does not drop, is that not considered a genetic defect? If it is a genetic defect would a breeder want to stand that dog at stud?
> On the other hand, with the pups in question. I don't think it will have anything to do with field performance one way or the other.
> Don and Crew


I believe it is as I have run into this before. He should be talking to the breeder. IMO


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I believe it is as I have run into this before. He should be talking to the breeder. IMO


so many people have expirience with one ball should I check all the puppies before I buy one like Copter Dock said pushing a finger by his butt? or just tell a breeder I dont want a dog with one ball before I pay? I never knew it happens so mcuh

does everyone really need to do the butt press before buying a full blood dog?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

It's believed to be an Autosomal Recessive trait (in dogs). 
So, inheritance would follow the same "rules" as EIC, CNM, DM, prcd-PRA, or coat color.

But, there's no test to screen for it, and since females have no testicles, they can't be affected. 
Even if homozygous.


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## Connie Swanson (May 31, 2005)

I think there's an important question to clarify: did the OP's vet say that he/she didn't feel testicles in the scrotum, or couldn't feel them at all? Usually an undescended testicle can be felt in the abdomen; i'd be more concerned if all these pups had hidden testicles that couldn't be felt at all at 6 wks.

Connie


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

copterdoc said:


> Yes, there are serious concerns, other than just breeding.
> http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cancer/c_dg_sertoli_cell_tumor?page=show


The concern is that you have to get the offending testicle found and removed, which eliminates the extra risk, and also that it while a normal neuter process is outside of the body, to remove the un-descended testicle usually requires going into the abdomen and finding it, which is a more complicated and expensive process and one that has a bit longer of a recovery period.


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

Jerry Beil said:


> The concern is that you have to get the offending testicle found and removed, which eliminates the extra risk, and also that it while a normal neuter process is outside of the body, to remove the un-descended testicle usually requires going into the abdomen and finding it, which is a more complicated and expensive process and one that has a bit longer of a recovery period.


This was my main concern. It goes from a very minor procedure (one we did on hogs all the time with just farmer know how and some iodine) to a scavenger hunt inside the abdomen. While researching the condition I found several cases with 2 - 3 incisions where the vet had to keep going further up the abdomen to find the testicle. 

However, the breeder emailed me yesterday. The two males remaining for me to pick from have balls that could be felt. I didn't ask about the others. So, patience is a virtue. The breeder was very upfront, and that is all you can ask for. 


Thanks everyone. I learned a lot.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Good to hear! And kudos to your puppy's breeder for being honest and upfront. Safe travels getting your new baby!


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