# Flyers at a hunt test



## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up. I would think the consensus of handlers would want 2 flyers per event. If the club chooses not to use 2 flyers, say so in the premium, so we can skip that event if inclined to do so. *what are other clubs doing ?*


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

As per the AKC HT Rule book, you do not have to use a live flyer in Junior at all. Most test that I've run had only one flyer for Junior, usually on land.


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## bmelvin (Feb 22, 2011)

Brokengunz said:


> I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
> I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up. I would think the consensus of handlers would want 2 flyers per event. If the club chooses not to use 2 flyers, say so in the premium, so we can skip that event if inclined to do so. *what are other clubs doing ?*


I have never seen a JR hunt test with two live flyers. Dog should pick up a bird when its thrown period. Judge is correct.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Most have one at best. Force fetch is your friend.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Brokengunz said:


> I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
> I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up. I would think the consensus of handlers would want 2 flyers per event. If the club chooses not to use 2 flyers, say so in the premium, so we can skip that event if inclined to do so. *what are other clubs doing ?*



You will be skipping a lot of tests.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

1 flyer is the norm up here. Skanky ducks yup they happen.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Brokengunz said:


> I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
> I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up. I would think the consensus of handlers would want 2 flyers per event. If the club chooses not to use 2 flyers, say so in the premium, so we can skip that event if inclined to do so. *what are other clubs doing ?*


The regs require 2 live birds per entry but depending on where you're from that's a rule that is broken more often than not. Nothing about live shot flyers, except at master and senior. Clubs cut back because of the expense, hassle and difficulty of finding bird stewards to acquire, care for and deliver stinking bird crates to all flights. Suggest you let the clubs you might enter know how you feel about having flyers. And I'm sure they'll appreciate your volunteering to throw, shoot, catch up and crate live birds deliver to the various stakes or drive all night to deliver birds for the club.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Since you must be new to the game I will try to help. Birds are around $12-15/bird befor any expenses associated with keeping or transporting them so most are at leat $15 when all is said and done. Most clubs could not put on a test spending $30 per dog on birds (standard is 1.5/dog). You got extremely lucky to have two live birds in a test. I have not seen that in 25 years of running test. 
Judges take the lions share of test income, followed by birds. I would be willing to bet you won't see that again.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Good Dogs said:


> The regs require 2 live birds per entry but depending on where you're from that's a rule that is broken more often than not. Nothing about live shot flyers, except at master and senior. Clubs cut back because of the expense, hassle and difficulty of finding bird stewards to acquire, care for and deliver stinking bird crates to all flights. Suggest you let the clubs you might enter know how you feel about having flyers. And I'm sure they'll appreciate your volunteering to throw, shoot, catch up and crate live birds deliver to the various stakes or drive all night to deliver birds for the club.


Are you volunteering to pick up the birds in T'vill next week?


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

My young dog ran 5 Junior tests last year. We had 1 flier total. And that was UNEXPECTED. They are not required in Junior. You WILL see them in Master. Occasionally you WON'T see them in Senior. Usually on the second day. The last Master test I ran in the fall of last year, we had 3 series, all triples. If I remember right, 1 flier total.

I always have 2 yucky birds frozen in my freezer. You HAVE to train on them as you will see them. You would be amazed at how quickly mouth problems can occur when the see them if they haven't been exposed to them before. I learned that one the hard way. I always do a refresher force fetch session with nasty birds.

Sue Puff


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Mike I see your running Berkley at the southern minnesota HT. Might see you there. I would like to see your dog run.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Sounds good, he will probably run more field trials than hunting tests but he will be running!


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

Also it is up to the judges if they want to use a flier. Some judges don't like to use fliers in junior. I don't agree with it but they are the judges so they can use the birds how they see fit. It doesn't say because you provide the live birds that they must be used as fliers.

Russell


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Huff said:


> Some judges don't like to use fliers in junior. Russell


Had an experience at a JH last summer where the gunners were very good. Birds taken up close and personal. A couple even had parts fly away at the shot. One head and one wing that I vividly remember. Broken, bloody mess they almost all were. Seems a shame to have newby dogs exposed with the dangers of developing bad habits so tempting. Older dogs fine but that is the reason I prefer not to have live flyers in Junior.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

Good Dogs said:


> *The regs require 2 live birds per entry* but depending on where you're from that's a rule that is broken more often than not. .


So....what part of this do most of the replys not understand, ...I enter,,,,,,regs require 2 live birds, i dont think it means the club has 2 birds per entry, then sells them on ebay. our fees are $80, less 30 for 2 ducks leaves $50, 2,5 shells per bird, sure there are other expenses but thet are amortized over the amount of entries, its not an excuse to BREAK the rules.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

Huff said:


> Also it is up to the judges if they want to use a flier. Some judges don't like to use fliers in junior. I don't agree with it but they are the judges so they can use the birds how they see fit. It doesn't say because you provide the live birds that they must be used as fliers.
> 
> Russell


live means living, not frozen, not dead, not plastic or other material, ....if you complete all the series in the test your dog should see 2 live birds, walking, flying, swimming or what ever.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Section 2. Game. Pheasants and/or ducks and/or 
chukars may be used in AKC-licensed or member club 
Hunting Tests, as may any other species of game bird that 
might be unique to a specific region. Clubs shall specify in 
the premium list the exact species of birds to be used in 
their hunting tests.
A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made 
available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test 
levels.
At least one live flyer must be used in a Senior or 
Master level test unless the use of live ammunition is prohibited by law or policy of the land managing organization 
at the testing location. (pg. 19)
http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf

Having live birds available does not necessarily mean live flyer, fresh killed birds should be used. For safety issues or available grounds, judges may opt out of using a flyer for Junior.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I think flyers should be used in one land test and one water test in all stakes. Too many times sinking water logged birds are used in the lesser HT stakes, Junior and senior. The local clubs in our area do tend to use live birds. The only time not to use a flyer would be for a control birds, where it is not safe or practical to use live ammunition.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Nope, they must be AVAILABLE for the judges. They do not have to use both!


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## krapwxman (May 24, 2009)

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> Nope, they must be AVAILABLE for the judges. They do not have to use both!


Mike is absolutely correct. And Cindy is also correct that 2 live birds available does not equal 2 flyers (or swimmers, or walkers, etc) for your dog. I attended a seminar with Jerry Mann this last weekend and this EXACT issue was brought up. Brokengunz, if you don't like it, don't agree with it, or don't understand it, I'd suggest you contact Jerry Mann directly (and your regional rep). You're going to get all types of responses on this forum to your question, some correct and some incorrect.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Around here we usually see two flyers in Junior, unless the conditions dictate otherwise. (Unsafe to shoot live rounds)
Skanky waterlogged half rotten birds should not be used for Junior dogs. There is no excuse for bad birds.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Brokengunz said:


> So....what part of this do most of the replys not understand, ...I enter,,,,,,regs require 2 live birds, i dont think it means the club has 2 birds per entry, then sells them on ebay. our fees are $80, less 30 for 2 ducks leaves $50, 2,5 shells per bird, sure there are other expenses but thet are amortized over the amount of entries, its not an excuse to BREAK the rules.


Ha! All due respect, you've obviously never been involved with putting on a test and/or adding up the entry fee's - expenses after a test and hoping you broke even or, if the auction/raffle was really good, even made a little bit of money to replace the broken/lost equipment so you can hold another test in the fall.

As someone else said, if you're going to skip junior tests that don't have 2 live flyers, you are going to miss a lot of tests.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

cpmm665 said:


> Section 2. A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
> available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
> levels.


I'm not an AKC judge, but I can read and this is pretty cut and dried to me.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Brokengunz said:


> I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
> I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up.


Nowhere in this post do you say anything about frozen, skanky birds being used in this test.


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

Section 2. A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made 
available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test 
levels.



Dman said:


> I'm not an AKC judge, but I can read and this is pretty cut and dried to me.


Yep, the key phrase here is "must be made *available* to use...". It does not say, "must be used". Shooting only one live flyer, or even no live flyers, in Junior is not breaking any rules (unless the judges WANT to shoot two flyers and the club says they do not have birds available). Over the past five years, I have only seen one club around here shoot two flyers in a Jr. test. Typically we see one flyer in Jr., one in Sr., and two in Master.

As to skanky birds, it depends on how well the clubs cycle the birds and dispose of the bad ones, but also weather. In the Pac NW in the Spring, it's hard to keep birds dry, so they wear faster. In the Summer heat, it doesn't take long for them to turn. It also helps when you instruct the bird boys they need to trash the really bad ones. They just follow instructions (...bag the birds, rebird the station, load it in the winger...) and if no one tells them to throw out the ugliest ones, some won't know to do so.

Funny thing to me is, for every junior dog handler that wants two flyers, it seems there are ten that don't want any live flyers. 

My dog gets squirrelier with live birds than stinky skanky birds. One thing that I've always wanted our club to do is shoot two flyers in the third series. Maybe we'll try it at our Fall test. A live duck and live pheasant flyer in the third. Now that would be fun (of course, twenty or thirty pheasant at $15 each? There's a $300 or $400 bite out of the budget. Can you serve top ramen for lunch to the workers to save money? Or maybe we'll serve pheasant  ).


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Ha! All due respect, you've obviously never been involved with putting on a test and/or adding up the entry fee's - expenses after a test and hoping you broke even or, if the auction/raffle was really good, even made a little bit of money to replace the broken/lost equipment so you can hold another test in the fall.


I agree Rick. Pretty obvious to those of us that have been involved.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

No club can exist breaking even on hunt tests or field trials. 

Profits have to be made to cover liability insurance, Workman's Comp insurance, dues to national clubs so your placements or passes count, printing, postage and other administrative type expenses, equipment purchases and repair, supplies for marshal boxes, etc. Membership dues just don't cover these expenses.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

JH tests are the most important event of the weekend in my opinion. Many folks don't share my opinion. The clubs make good money on the tests and if run properly don't lose money. Every JH test should have a flier in both series. If a MH test thinks they need a flier to get answers the judges aren't doing a good job. Most MH pro trained dogs get plenty of fliers and the fliers at a HT are for their egos. JH tests should get two fliers. They are the easiest and least time consuming tests to run on the grounds. JH test require the least amount of resources and the judges are almost alwasy locally available costing the club no money the majority of the time. They are done in a few hours and take up the least amount of resources. 

Unless there is a reason such as gun safety, two fliers should be given in JH tests to give the dogs test experience. Most JH folks get their bulk of fliers at a test. For the sake of the dog and novice handler, give the two fliers to the JH. 

When clubs "save" the fliers for the MH dogs who are mostly pro trained and get fliers on a regular basis........it's just another sign of the times. It's not for the betterment of the sport. It's to appease the willy-nilly Master-National weekend test.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

our hrc club has not made much money in the last 2 yrs with high bird prices and low seasoned and started entrys. the club members giving uo 2-3 days and doing a lot of work add the price of gas for members to drive it all adds up.i want to thank all the club members every where for doing this. i know this has nothing to do about live flyers but it has a lot to do with how much if any clubs make money and continue to allow us to run our dogs


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Unless there is a reason such as gun safety, two fliers should be given in JH tests to give the dogs test experience. Most JH folks get their bulk of fliers at a test. For the sake of the dog and novice handler, give the two fliers to the JH.


I judged a junior last year where we used a flier in conjunction with the land marks, and then were offered a flier on water, but due to the water we were given plus wind direction it just didn't work so we used two controlled birds on water. I do not find anything wrong with how the rules are presently worded. Give the judges the ability to use two, but if they find that TWO fliers do not work into their scenarios, then so be it. I don't agree however with your rational above. It's not the judges job nor the clubs to set up tests in order to give the dogs test experience. Judges are there to judge each individual dog on that day according to the AKC rules. If handlers choose to come to tests simply to obtain experience with fliers, then that's on them, but no one else should be concerned about whether or not a dog wants/needs multiple fliers simply for their personal experience.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

in my humble and often wrong opinion, ALL stakes should also include a crippled bird, on either land or water. Or both.
(I'm not being serious, I understand it's logistically impossible).
That would tell you which dogs will pick up birds in a realistic situation. It kinda frosts me when people are griping in the gallery that their dog failed because he got a cripple. Seriously? These are hunting retrievers. I always hope for cripples. I offer big tips to the gunners to get me a cripple  .
Have seen 1 live flier around here in JH tests, 2 in SH. I think it would be kinda fun to see both fliers in one series.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Brokengunz said:


> So....what part of this do most of the replys not understand, ...I enter,,,,,,regs require 2 live birds, i dont think it means the club has 2 birds per entry, then sells them on ebay. our fees are $80, less 30 for 2 ducks leaves $50, 2,5 shells per bird, sure there are other expenses but thet are amortized over the amount of entries, its not an excuse to BREAK the rules.


A few of the other "small" expenses:-
Land use fees
Lunches for workers
Judges expenses including travel, meals, and lodging 
Poppers
Rosettes
Live shells
Nonalcoholic drinks for the stake workers
AKC fees
Port-a-johns
Miscellaneous supplies (trash bags, pencils, paper)
Equipment repair and replacement (signs, firing pins, winger tubing, gun stands)
Etc., Etc.

I'm chairing a test in a few weeks and I am open for suggestions on ways to mitigate part of those expense while still supplying 2 live fliers at every stake.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Seriously Brokenguns, if you intend to continue in the retriever games you should resist the urge to whine about the tests and prepare your dog to run.

There will not always be 2 flyers but there WILL ALWAYS BE STINKY RATTY BIRDS. 

There are 2 cliches in this game that hold true, "the test is the test, get over it" and "train don't complain"

Bert


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Brokengunz said:


> So....what part of this do most of the replys not understand, ...I enter,,,,,,regs require 2 live birds, i dont think it means the club has 2 birds per entry, then sells them on ebay. our fees are $80, less 30 for 2 ducks leaves $50, 2,5 shells per bird, sure there are other expenses but thet are amortized over the amount of entries, its not an excuse to BREAK the rules.


Broken - folks have given several examples of why you probably won't get a flyer in each stake of junior. And flyers are not required for ANY stake in junior. You'd probably find your entry did buy 2 live birds but the requirement is not that they're USED as live birds.

It does however give you FRESH birds. 

Blasting flyers quickly diminishes some birds value. They can't always be reused. Same goes for hard mouthing, especially on a shot bird - most commonly found in the younger dogs. Junior tests for certain things that freshly euthanized birds answer.

Then there's birds that are used for test dogs, bird placement, etc. If those are flyers, that cost adds up. Then there's missed birds which unfortunately happens. Those add up. Then there's gunners and ammo cost versus a single winger station worker. Not to mention junior marks might create a pretty close firing line so a flyer my limit a set-up for the judge.

As also stated - a lot of junior handlers don't want a flyer. Personally if a junior test was based on a higher scoring matrix of performance including crisp delivery to hand, non-cheating and solid unrestrained line obedience...I'd opt the junior dog get at least 1 flyer. But that's not the test. 

If 2 of the 4 marks you get in a junior series included 2 being shot - you'd really have to pay for 2.5 or 3 to account for the losses associated with flyers and the 'freshness' of the dead bird marks.

You're not being cheated. Nobody is bringing frozen, rotten, nasty birds to a hunt test for you to use.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)




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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.

I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.

Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.

Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.

If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Steve Babcock said:


> Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.
> 
> I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.
> 
> ...


I wish they'd use them on those dang 450 yrd marks! J/K kinda...


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Duckquilizer said:


> I wish they'd use them on those dang 450 yrd marks! J/K kinda...


Come hunting with us. I have a buddy that will wing'em just right so they drop about there.


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

They would never hear the shot before the bird hit the ground. That would be an totally unfair bird.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

jacduck said:


> Had an experience at a JH last summer where the gunners were very good. Birds taken up close and personal. A couple even had parts fly away at the shot. One head and one wing that I vividly remember. Broken, bloody mess they almost all were. Seems a shame to have newby dogs exposed with the dangers of developing bad habits so tempting. Older dogs fine but that is the reason I prefer not to have live flyers in Junior.


I'm sure you were kidding about the gunners being "very good". What you describe, about all of the birds being a "bloody mess", is a terrible practice for a number of reasons, and regardless of the stake.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Darin Westphal said:


> I judged a junior last year where we used a flier in conjunction with the land marks, and then were offered a flier on water, but due to the water we were given plus wind direction it just didn't work so we used two controlled birds on water. I do not find anything wrong with how the rules are presently worded. Give the judges the ability to use two, but if they find that TWO fliers do not work into their scenarios, then so be it. I don't agree however with your rational above. It's not the judges job nor the clubs to set up tests in order to give the dogs test experience. Judges are there to judge each individual dog on that day according to the AKC rules. If handlers choose to come to tests simply to obtain experience with fliers, then that's on them, but no one else should be concerned about whether or not a dog wants/needs multiple fliers simply for their personal experience.


Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series. 

It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

jacduck said:


> Had an experience at a JH last summer where the gunners were very good. Birds taken up close and personal. A couple even had parts fly away at the shot. One head and one wing that I vividly remember. Broken, bloody mess they almost all were. Seems a shame to have newby dogs exposed with the dangers of developing bad habits so tempting. Older dogs fine but that is the reason I prefer not to have live flyers in Junior.


You & I have very different ideas about what makes a gunner "very good". Only rookies shoot birds so close that they destroy them like that. A skilled gunner lets the bird fly a little. That's what increases the desirability for the dog which is the intention of using a flyer in the first place.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Dave Flint said:


> You & I have very different ideas about what makes a gunner "very good". Only rookies shoot birds so close that they destroy them like that. A skilled gunner lets the bird fly a little. That's what increases the desirability for the dog which is the intention of using a flyer in the first place.



Opening the chokes might help some as well.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Steve Babcock said:


> Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.
> 
> I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.
> 
> ...





Splash_em said:


> A few of the other "small" expenses:-
> Land use fees
> Lunches for workers
> Judges expenses including travel, meals, and lodging
> ...


Good posts!!! Saving 15 bucks a dog may make or break the test. The shot birds are often not reusable. The local "hunters" often used as flyer shooters typically bring their duck gun complete with "pass shooting" extra full chokes. Duck parts litter the ground & the ducks left have holes shot through them. After discarding 75% of the shot flyers, you will begin to understand a clubs hesitance to use more than necessary. Even with knowledgable shooters & open chokes there is always the duck that flies back to the crate & is destroyed. The knowledgable flyer shooters are marshalling, chairing the test, delivering lunches ect. So the best is made of the shooters available.

The stake has to start with "dead ducks". The same people that want 2 flyers are going to raise hell when a club starts a Junior stake with 10 frozen ducks out of my freezer. It is also rare to shoot flyers without no birds. With a good group of Junior dogs & 2 flyers the club could shoot more than the 2 birds per entry.


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## grnhd (Jan 4, 2013)

Steve Babcock said:


> Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.
> 
> Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.
> 
> If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.


I don't know anything about the hunt test games,but isnt everything in HUNTING a live flyer? If a person cant get a dog to be steady when 50% of the birds could be a flyer,how are they ever going to have one be steady when 100% of the birds are flyers? If a person cant get a dog to be steady when 1 bird is shot in front of it,how will it ever be steady when 4 are shot in front of it during a 6 gun volley? What am I missing? Does a hunt test get a dog more amped up than hunting?


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series.
> 
> It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.


Our club has only put on 2 AKC hunting tests but we did lose money on our 3 junior stakes that we put on.....I think we may have had one junior that used 2 flyers but I am not positive on that. There were plenty of flyers available for our judges to use.


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series.
> 
> It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.


Its obvious Paul that you haven't been around any other clubs but your local ones. Clubs like ours only have a couple judges that can judge. You do not use them on every test you run or they will soon burn out and quit judging.
You are very fortunate to have so many judges available in the Seattle area. If we want to have more local judges they have to come to a semaniar all the way to your clubs as we with very very few members can't afford putting on one for the benefit of the club.
So all I can say is THANKS Dick, Kent, John, our three local judges, for all you do so we all can enjoy what we do in eastern Wa.
Clay


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

grnhd said:


> Does a hunt test get a dog more amped up than hunting?


Yes it does.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series.
> 
> It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.


must be your part of the country. Our junior or started seldom have a third the number of dogs that a master/finished flight has. Cost to run the flight is not significantly different than any other flight. Still need judges, birds, workers (we pay ours)....
There more times than not our lower level test make no money and the saving grace is large master entries. 
Our test next weekend has 10 started on Saturday and 8 on Sunday. That is pretty typical although in our AKC test we have maybe 15-20 juniors, but one or two large flights of master. Throwing two flyers for 8 dogs is not a money maker.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

fishduck said:


> Good posts!!! Saving 15 bucks a dog may make or break the test. The shot birds are often not reusable. The local "hunters" often used as flyer shooters typically bring their duck gun complete with "pass shooting" extra full chokes. Duck parts litter the ground & the ducks left have holes shot through them. After discarding 75% of the shot flyers, you will begin to understand a clubs hesitance to use more than necessary. Even with knowledgable shooters & open chokes there is always the duck that flies back to the crate & is destroyed. The knowledgable flyer shooters are marshalling, chairing the test, delivering lunches ect. So the best is made of the shooters available.


What I have experienced over the years in the Northeast, with rare exceptions, is that the live shot flyers are the most desirable birds for use over the entirety of the test. Most gun captains and clubs that I have witnessed, with acute awareness of the cost birds, take every reasonable measure to ensure that the shot birds are in a condition to be used for more than one series, oftentimes used for the entire stake. That, and a level of respect for the game, provides that the gunners are capable and informed about what is expected in terms of choke, shot size, and ethical (and safe) shooting practices. Shot birds are generally kept on a separate drying rack and bagged separately from previously killled birds. They are highly prized for training birds at the conclusion of the test. 

Suitable for the table, baby, just like the goal of real hunting.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Swampcollie said:


> Around here we usually see two flyers in Junior, unless the conditions dictate otherwise. (Unsafe to shoot live rounds)
> Skanky waterlogged half rotten birds should not be used for Junior dogs. There is no excuse for bad birds.


Skanky waterlogged half rotten birds should not be used PERIOD!!!!!! 
FWIW, Every Jr test I have ever run , in 23 years, has always had AT LEAST ONE live flyer, and many have had two. Sr the same standard.. Master, usually two out of three series.....


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Clayton Evans said:


> Its obvious Paul that you haven't been around any other clubs but your local ones. Clubs like ours only have a couple judges that can judge. You do not use them on every test you run or they will soon burn out and quit judging.
> You are very fortunate to have so many judges available in the Seattle area. If we want to have more local judges they have to come to a semaniar all the way to your clubs as we with very very few members can't afford putting on one for the benefit of the club.
> So all I can say is THANKS Dick, Kent, John, our three local judges, for all you do so we all can enjoy what we do in eastern Wa.
> Clay


Clay, How long does it take to run 40 Junior dogs on Sunday and how many workers does it require? Usually done by 1pm and uses 1 kid and 2 or three gunners. If you're going to take a bird away, take if from SH test. JH tests take the least amount of time and resources to put on local judge or not. JH tests should be 1/3 the cost of MH even with two fliers.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Goldenboy said:


> What I have experienced over the years in the Northeast, with rare exceptions, is that the live shot flyers are the most desirable birds for use over the entirety of the test. Most gun captains and clubs that I have witnessed, with acute awareness of the cost birds, take every reasonable measure to ensure that the shot birds are in a condition to be used for more than one series, oftentimes used for the entire stake. That, and a level of respect for the game, provides that the gunners are capable and informed about what is expected in terms of choke, shot size, and ethical (and safe) shooting practices. Shot birds are generally kept on a separate drying rack and bagged separately from previously killled birds. They are highly prized for training birds at the conclusion of the test.
> 
> Suitable for the table, baby, just like the goal of real hunting.


Same here. We actually shoot all of our birds even those not used as a flyer. With a good gun captain you will have good gunners who understand the need for food clean kills. Good, bird personnel assure the birds are handled well and will last. We begin the day shooting birds from the flyer station to get enough dead birds to start the test and sent the aof.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Goldenboy said:


> What I have experienced over the years in the Northeast, with rare exceptions, is that the live shot flyers are the most desirable birds for use over the entirety of the test. Most gun captains and clubs that I have witnessed, with acute awareness of the cost birds, take every reasonable measure to ensure that the shot birds are in a condition to be used for more than one series, oftentimes used for the entire stake. That, and a level of respect for the game, provides that the gunners are capable and informed about what is expected in terms of choke, shot size, and ethical (and safe) shooting practices. Shot birds are generally kept on a separate drying rack and bagged separately from previously killled birds. They are highly prized for training birds at the conclusion of the test.
> 
> Suitable for the table, baby, just like the goal of real hunting.


You are preaching to the choir!!!! It is often preferable to pull the known "shooters" out of the gallery than recruit the local hunters. But if you don't have one in the flight that you can contact prior to the test, it is better to have the hunters than to have your marshall in the flyer station. We work with what we have.;-)


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Clay, How long does it take to run 40 Junior dogs on Sunday and how many workers does it require? Usually done by 1pm and uses 1 kid and 2 or three gunners. If you're going to take a bird away, take if from SH test. JH tests take the least amount of time and resources to put on local judge or not. JH tests should be 1/3 the cost of MH even with two fliers.


Happy - help me with that math. 1/3 the cost of 75.00 or 80.00 would be 27.50 and the two birds would be 30.00 It doesn't cost less to feed and house a junior judge than a master judge. Judges cannot judge junior both days on a double. 

As far as worker distribution - most club volunteers want to work senior and master as that's their interest and where they'll come out of the field to run their own dogs. Junior is easier to work with hired workers. 

I'm not against 1 flyer in junior but I am against hours of work, coordination, and 20 hours a day on test weekends to break-even or make $300.00.

Like I said earlier, if junior was judged to a higher degree of dog work and the premium was $10 more -I'd be all for it.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

HNTFSH said:


> Happy - help me with that math. 1/3 the cost of 75.00 or 80.00 would be 27.50 and the two birds would be 30.00 It doesn't cost less to feed and house a junior judge than a master judge. Judges cannot judge junior both days on a double.
> 
> As far as worker distribution - most club volunteers want to work senior and master as that's their interest and where they'll come out of the field to run their own dogs. Junior is easier to work with hired workers.
> 
> ...



You have to do the math more like a business. Maybe the problem is just that MH test is way too cheap? A JH test throws 4 marks. How many times does a bird hit the ground before a MH test is completed?

How many(on average) times will a dog have a bird in his mouth the in the MH test(assume the dog qualifies) versus how many times a JH dog has a bird in his mouth? Each time a bird is put on the ground for a retrieve that costs money and takes a resource. 

Do the math.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> You have to do the math more like a business. Maybe the problem is just that MH test is way too cheap? A JH test throws 4 marks. How many times does a bird hit the ground before a MH test is completed?
> 
> How many(on average) times will a dog have a bird in his mouth the in the MH test(assume the dog qualifies) versus how many times a JH dog has a bird in his mouth? Each time a bird is put on the ground for a retrieve that costs money and takes a resource.
> 
> Do the math.


Have done the math. The aggregate of the costs versus revenue isn't as simple as you suggest. Be nice if it were.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Happy please help me with the math. Most of us have large Master tests and small juniors. Most of us have travel expenses for all judges. So for me our Master tests have 40-50 dogs and our juniors have 4-25 dogs. Even at 25 dogs my cost for the junior is no where near 1/3 of the master. Judges, birds, and land rent cost the same as other stakes, and we may save a little on hired help on juniors. We charge less for juniors and we make less per dog unless the entry gets close to 35 where it would start to average out.

Don't get me wrong all clubs need to try their hardest to make sure the Junior stake runs smoothly and people and dogs have a great experience.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the order of a flyer, particularly in JH. For those just starting to judge, whenever possible, shoot the flyer second. That way, if a JH dog won't pick up a dead bird, you don't waste the flyer. This can be considered in SH too though the order can be more critical than in a JH test.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

1/3 is a figure of speach. If you had 4 dogs to run JH, what is the real cost? 

HNTFSH, The cost is relavant even if you don't agree. MH test typically has 7-8 wingers tied up at once, all the paid workers, more volunteer effort and it's where all the folks want to sit and watch dogs. 
Reducing fliers, not catering to JH / New people is going to really start hurting the sport. Sounds like you club with really low JH entries is seeing the symptoms. I'm very disapointed in the eagerness of clubs to put all the focus on the MH tests which are really pre-MN tests in many places. Folks "say" they don't want to make the weekend tests a mini-Master National except, when it comes to picking judges, what is the most important thing they discuss on the agenda? Having a couple "Master National" judges. THat is a big expense bringing them in from a long distance. 

Also, the more MH level dogs run a test, the fewer available volunteers you'll find. That math is very simple.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> 1/3 is a figure of speach. If you had 4 dogs to run JH, what is the real cost?
> 
> HNTFSH, The cost is relavant even if you don't agree. MH test typically has 7-8 wingers tied up at once, all the paid workers, more volunteer effort and it's where all the folks want to sit and watch dogs.
> Reducing fliers, not catering to JH / New people is going to really start hurting the sport. Sounds like you club with really low JH entries is seeing the symptoms. I'm very disapointed in the eagerness of clubs to put all the focus on the MH tests which are really pre-MN tests in many places. Folks "say" they don't want to make the weekend tests a mini-Master National except, when it comes to picking judges, what is the most important thing they discuss on the agenda? Having a couple "Master National" judges. THat is a big expense bringing them in from a long distance.
> ...


So it's a figure of speech now? I see. 

Fixed cost is relevant, absolutely. Your Don Quixote on the financials part of this thread. The overall costs (and revenues) are distributed across the event.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Now the costs are distributed over the whole event? If clubs want to keep looking at it that way, they can keep wondering why they are losing or, can't make money.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Now the costs are distributed over the whole event? If clubs want to keep looking at it that way, they can keep wondering why they are losing or, can't make money.


We don't lose money. If you believe this firmly that we're all idiots in this test/cost thing perhaps you can educate us with providing a balance sheet for costs/revenues and stated Premiums for each stake based on some general entrant assumptions.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

HNTFSH said:


> We don't lose money. If you believe this firmly that we're all idiots in this test/cost thing perhaps you can educate us with providing a balance sheet for costs/revenues and stated Premiums for each stake based on some general entrant assumptions.


What are your panties in a bunch about? I do cost estimating and management for a living  Left that trade to help start a new division of a company expanding construction capabilities. I could easily work it up although, nobody would want to see it.


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

Happy- I'm not saying that you diminish the importance of a junior stake, but I don't believe you "cater" to it either. As a club (IMO) you strive to put on stakes at all levels that are good tests for the dogs at that level. This encompasses all aspects of a test from parking to keeping dogs in holding blinds to the marks themselves and even the ribbon ceremony after. Whether those tests involve 1 or 2 fliers is all dependent on the club, entries, judges and grounds available. Would it be nice to have 2 fliers at a junior...heck ya, but it's not always feasible. So with that in mind, if you expect to see 2 fliers at every junior stake, then all I ask is that when you don't see it, please stay off the internet the next day and not bash the club and/or judges. 

What's the flier give the judges at a junior test anyway? The ability to see if the dog will handle a freshly killed or live duck right? Other then that it doesn't give the judges much. It can't be a wipe out bird since there's only singles....and it's not going to be a breaker (could be but that'd be dumb since the handler has a firm grasp of the dogs collar anyway), so what else as a judge are you looking for? I only have 4 marks in order to test the dogs marking skills among other things so if a second flier fits into my scenario, great, but if it doesn't then I'm not going to give it much additional thought, especially if we've done our job and offered up a smooth fun and challenging test for the handlers. IMO it's not one part but rather the whole test that will keep junior handlers coming back and/or advancing.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Darin Westphal said:


> Happy- I'm not saying that you diminish the importance of a junior stake, but I don't believe you "cater" to it either. As a club (IMO) you strive to put on stakes at all levels that are good tests for the dogs at that level. This encompasses all aspects of a test from parking to keeping dogs in holding blinds to the marks themselves and even the ribbon ceremony after. Whether those tests involve 1 or 2 fliers is all dependent on the club, entries, judges and grounds available. Would it be nice to have 2 fliers at a junior...heck ya, but it's not always feasible. So with that in mind, if you expect to see 2 fliers at every junior stake, then all I ask is that when you don't see it, please stay off the internet the next day and not bash the club and/or judges.
> 
> What's the flier give the judges at a junior test anyway? The ability to see if the dog will handle a freshly killed or live duck right? Other then that it doesn't give the judges much. It can't be a wipe out bird since there's only singles....and it's not going to be a breaker (could be but that'd be dumb since the handler has a firm grasp of the dogs collar anyway), so what else as a judge are you looking for? I only have 4 marks in order to test the dogs marking skills among other things so if a second flier fits into my scenario, great, but if it doesn't then I'm not going to give it much additional thought, especially if we've done our job and offered up a smooth fun and challenging test for the handlers. IMO it's not one part but rather the whole test that will keep junior handlers coming back and/or advancing.


Your exactly right Darin. My only point was that $15 extra, if the club can do a flier safely and it doesn't cause other issues should be a no-brainer. The folks should be encouraged to take one home with them then and there to practice as well. Now, that suggestion I'm sure will raise a big ole mess....I know the good ole boys like to hide them away to make sure their freezer is full for the year.....funny how ducks always disapear yet, some folks always have nice frozen ducks??


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> What are your panties in a bunch about? I do cost estimating and management for a living  Left that trade to help start a new division of a company expanding construction capabilities. I could easily work it up although, nobody would want to see it.


Ah heck - since you stated earlier you've been down this lonesome road before I thought you might have complied some data to share. I don't buy the notion that the cost of a junior stake is a barrier to adoption of some guy or gal running hunt tests. I've been in business 32 years and having seen and worked with profit margins have yet to see you post anything that addressed them. Maybe I missed it sans the 'figure of speeches'. Either way - think most agree test margins are always tight. Always have been. Introducing more cost in any stake needs to net more revenue to cover it. If you think two flyers will drive 2x or 3x entries for junior me thinks you're wrong.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> What are your panties in a bunch about? I do cost estimating and management for a living  Left that trade to help start a new division of a company expanding construction capabilities. I could easily work it up although, nobody would want to see it.


Don't mean you know shinola about running a hunt test. Any experience there you would care to share?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

HNTFSH said:


> Ah heck - since you stated earlier you've been down this lonesome road before I thought you might have complied some data to share. I don't buy the notion that the cost of a junior stake is a barrier to adoption of some guy or gal running hunt tests. I've been in business 32 years and having seen and worked with profit margins have yet to see you post anything that addressed them. Maybe I missed it sans the 'figure of speeches'. Either way - think most agree test margins are always tight. Always have been. Introducing more cost in any stake needs to net more revenue to cover it. If you think two flyers will drive 2x or 3x entries for junior me thinks you're wrong.



No, definately not saying that JH test entries will skyrocket. I just think that doing some catering to the JH test goes a long ways in welcoming people to the sport. If the clubs considered doing more on Sunday rather than Saturday(tailgates, raffles) I think the results could be positive.

What I'm saying is that embracing the lower levels of the sport is good for bringing new people to the games. If you stick the JH on a lonely piece of property, run the test for a couple hours, hand out a ribbon and say good-bye....I think a lot of folks who might become involved never get the opportunity. 

RF2- If you'd like my resume, shoot me your email- be glad to send it! I assume you're hiring? lol..


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> No, definately not saying that JH test entries will skyrocket. I just think that doing some catering to the JH test goes a long ways in welcoming people to the sport. If the clubs considered doing more on Sunday rather than Saturday(tailgates, raffles) I think the results could be positive.
> 
> What I'm saying is that embracing the lower levels of the sport is good for bringing new people to the games. If you stick the JH on a lonely piece of property, run the test for a couple hours, hand out a ribbon and say good-bye....I think a lot of folks who might become involved never get the opportunity.
> 
> RF2- If you'd like my resume, shoot me your email- be glad to send it! I assume you're hiring? lol..


Happy - I think most clubs I've seen do all those things. Most I know at any level are trying to get home Sunday after a long weekend, juniors included. Where people get 'bought in' and catered to is at the club level, not hunt tests. 25 bucks a year dues buys a lot of value.

For many clubs the revenue from a test is their annual budget. That supports the club for all the fun things that happen the other 50 weekends of the year. 

Throwing more live flyers at junior doesn't contribute to any of that. Which - has been my point. I haven't seen too many people show up with a junior dog to a hunt test that didn't have some club affiliation. The few I have I think failed...and that wasn't based on fresh dead bird versus flyer! 

In any event - new handlers, young dogs, and new junior training day folks get treated pretty well around these parts.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> 1/3 is a figure of speach. If you had 4 dogs to run JH, what is the real cost?
> 
> HNTFSH, The cost is relavant even if you don't agree. MH test typically has 7-8 wingers tied up at once, all the paid workers, more volunteer effort and it's where all the folks want to sit and watch dogs.
> Reducing fliers, not catering to JH / New people is going to really start hurting the sport. Sounds like you club with really low JH entries is seeing the symptoms. I'm very disapointed in the eagerness of clubs to put all the focus on the MH tests which are really pre-MN tests in many places. Folks "say" they don't want to make the weekend tests a mini-Master National except, when it comes to picking judges, what is the most important thing they discuss on the agenda? Having a couple "Master National" judges. THat is a big expense bringing them in from a long distance.
> ...



Our 4 dog Junior lost huge! 

6 flyers one missed and a test dog $78
AKC Fee $18
Judges Gas $175
lunches, still had to feed everyone even though they were done at 11:30am $48
Ribbons $12
Judges Gift $100 still have to gift the judges regardless of how many dogs they judged.

I won't even add poppers, rent, paid help, port potty, equipment usage, garbage, and live ammo....

Our cost without all the others was $431 and entries were $55 each so we lost over $211 add the rest of it up and juniors need 25-35 to make it even close. This example we were lucky and did not have any hotel expense for our judges!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Around here every JH, I've ever been to, Has had 2 flyers, it would be great if they didn't give the better gunners 2 Master. Seems like you borrow a lot of trouble for a Junior dog with flyers that walk away, particularly water divers. I don't know what multiple flyers really accomplish in JH test, we've come to see the dog mark, sure it brings excitement but the dogs aren't going to break, cripples and different areas of the fall result in no birds, etc. I guess if your dog doesn't see flyers in training a test is the only place you can get them aside from hunting, and if your going to shell out 60-65+ bucks for a test $30 for 2 flyers seems a reasonable expectation. Realistically Junior entries make our tests out here, they offset the master test cost, so we keep the Juniors happy.

P.S. You you cannot use your live flyers later, You've got gun-captain and choke issues. Gun-captain in that he's responsible for knowing what chokes everyone's using and ensuring you've got gunners who won't shoot to tear up the birds, also he ensures gunners are good enough to use minimal ammo. One shot, one bird, Lead or steel 6s or 7s with skeet chokes = no bloody messes


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the order of a flyer, particularly in JH. For those just starting to judge, whenever possible, shoot the flyer second. That way, if a JH dog won't pick up a dead bird, you don't waste the flyer. This can be considered in SH too though the order can be more critical than in a JH test.


Boy does this suggestion take the cake. If I drive 400 miles and go out without ever at least getting a look at a flyer for my dog do ya think I'm ever coming back to your test. If so think again.
Paul your math is really bogus and I'll leave it at that. Next year you will fully understand where the money goes and truly how much it costs.
Clay


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> RF2- If you'd like my resume, shoot me your email- be glad to send it! I assume you're hiring? lol..


I see your resume in your signature...pass. I was just wondering if your math was based on actually having chaired a profitable event or if you were just a gallery gabber.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Clayton Evans said:


> Boy does this suggestion take the cake. If I drive 400 miles and go out without ever at least getting a look at a flyer for my dog do ya think I'm ever coming back to your test. If so think again.
> Paul your math is really bogus and I'll leave it at that. Next year you will fully understand where the money goes and truly how much it costs.
> Clay


If I had a nickle for each time I saw some jackwagon put out a BIG exposed gun station and run a massively exciting flyer and then expect that poor pup to turn and see a bird coming out of a completely hidden winger. Try to get that pup to turn and mark the bird much less stay in the area.

Throw a dead bird first to see if the pup is even worth messing with (think British Silver Show Labradoodle) and THEN once we establish that the dog at least has a clue lets ask a duck to die for the cause. If that pisses you off .......well I'm happy to not have your ignorant a$$ around cluttering the place up.

We make the birds available but to tell the truth it isn't often that we can find a suitable piece of water to allow a flyer to be fairly and safely used. It really isn't a money issue as much as it is a logistics issue. When we do shoot a second bird for the Junior dogs we lose money on the stake- sometimes that is intentional.

Happy you don't hav a clue. The costs for a hunt test fall into 2 categories - fixed and variable. When you get done doing the math the Master series is what pays the bills due to the higher attrition rate combined with more entries. When you spread the costs of trailer, land use, and all the other buried costs across more dogs the profit margin per dog goes up. The other factor is that the Master stakes pretty much Marshall themselves and we can usually provide a live bird thrower and supplement that with volunteer labor. Generally the Junior and Senior stakes require dedicated outside esources. It's a LOT easier to get a couple of guys to come out and shoot birds and be done by mid-morning than it is to get them to come back next year after working them to death all day long. After you have organized and operated your first hunt test call me so I can remind you of the dumbass statements you made.

It's all relative regrds

Bubba


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Bubba, I DO admire your way with words! 

May I add, for those of you who insist a flyer or two for the Junior because, "it may be the only opportunity these JH dogs get to see a flyer"; if that is in fact, the case, you've got bigger problems in your future. 

Breaking news: the HT is not a training session! What better way to teach your dog the difference between training and a test than to throw dead birds (or plastic bumpers) all week and then go to a test and discover the only flyers he ever sees :shock:. Prepare your dog properly and the dog will be "underwhelmed" by the test.

JS


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Clayton Evans said:


> If I drive 400 miles


Is it common for people to drive that far for a hunt test?


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

EdA said:


> Is it common for people to drive that far for a hunt test?


Round trip, yeah probably.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

EdA said:


> Is it common for people to drive that far for a hunt test?


Sure as hell not for a junior, but I live in the looong state of Florida I can go 400 miles to get to Tallahassee. Otherwise there are only three test within 200 miles.
My home club is 97 miles from my front door.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> P.S. You you cannot use your live flyers later, You've got gun-captain and choke issues. Gun-captain in that he's responsible for knowing what chokes everyone's using and ensuring you've got gunners who won't shoot to tear up the birds, also he ensures gunners are good enough to use minimal ammo. One shot, one bird, Lead or steel 6s or 7s with skeet chokes = no bloody messes


Yes it is an issue. Hasn't been a problem this year or last. Last year as a marshal I expected to spend a morning shooting flyers. Kept a four wheeler in the blind & handled rebirds from the flyer station. FAR from ideal but the best that could be done under the circumstances.

The worst I saw was running Junior. Pulverized birds and lots of fly aways. Was so bad at one Junior test that the flyer station became a dead bird station. 6-7 flyaways before they brought one down. Was an easy and smart decision by the judges.

As far as one shot, one kill. I have had more than one judge instruct the gunners to shoot twice regardless. If I was a shooter, I shot sky with the second shot. At the Master National 3 shooters shot most birds. 

I wish finding gunners & volunteers wasn't such an issue for clubs. I always pitch in at other clubs if I am needed because I certainly appreciate outside help with my clubs. I am envious of those clubs that have enough help to man gun stations & work in shifts.


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## grnhd (Jan 4, 2013)

It blows me away that clubs can't find someone that knows how to shoot to come SHOOT DUCKS! Hell,I'd do it and bring my own shells! Seriously,you want me to shoot ducks all day....well ok,if you really want me to.LOL!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

You would think judges and clubs that weren't using fliers in JH were doing it to help those dogs out who may not have seen a bunch of fliers yet. That said, and this is just an opinion, JH should get the freshest killed birds the clubs have available. That's where the new blood and the new dogs start. We should keep it as real as possible. A dog rarely retrieves a duck 8 times in 90 degree weather while hunting.

Give my MH dog a bird that's kinda beat up. He/she should have seen enough birds to get through that. Don't do it to a puppy and a new handler. 

Again, Just an opinion.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Gunners in some clubs is a non-earned entitlement and has nothing to do with shooting ability. Can we say poli ti cal?
Just saying, have gunned my share, mostly field trials, a few hunt tests. Captain of the guns picks many times.


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

Grnhd asked earlier in this thread, "Does a Hunt Test get a dog more amped up than hunting"? The answer is YES. At a Hunt Test, the dog gets let out of a truck, goes into a holding blind and within seconds after leaving the blind the action starts. In hunting you can walk a half mile before getting up a bird or wait an hour before a duck comes in.

All my dogs know the difference between a trial and hunting. I guide hunters from Sept thru Dec so they hunt a lot.

As far as JR dogs being steady, they are not required to be steady. You can restrain them with a flat collar.

Now about the question of blowing up birds and using skanky ducks. I've never had a problem with flyers getting blown up, if I see a problem like that I will fix it. We always have birds to give away at the end of the trial. Very seldom do we have to throw away a flyer.

I also make sure the JR has good dead birds. If you have someone to take care of birds they can last quite awhile.

When I first started gunning at Hunt Tests, we shot pigeons. What would be wrong with bringing pigeons back?


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Been following this thread and am amazed at some of the responses.

In 12 years of running, working and judging for our club, I can count on 1 hand the number of blown apart birds produced by our gunners at our tests. 2 3/4 # 7 low velocity steel, skeet or cyl choke, and let the birds get out 20-25yds. We have great gunners.

For Jr's, I will always try to give 2 flyers if possible.. It isn't always. And if we don't, I make darn sure we have good birds. Again, our club prides itself on providing handlers a good experience and the condidition of the birds it a big part of that.

If we are going to use only 1, we make darn sure it means something and use it on land.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Even if i don't get two flyers in a JH test I expect my dog to pick up and deliver to hand a rotten bloated smelly duck. I have seen flyers shot in half and gutts coming out and dogs still delivering half a bird. When your hunting do you always have a shot bird that is not distroyed? I train my dog to pick up anything I send her for and she better bring it back. Clubs save your money and give me one flyer and one dead. My dog will pick up both and I will pass.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I didn't read all the posts yet but my club, LIGRC, gives two flyers for junior.

Also, we give pheasants on land and ducks on the water.


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

If that pisses you off .......well I'm happy to not have your ignorant a$$ around cluttering the place up.

Its attitudes like this that give this board a bad name and don't you worry your head as I don't run your clubs test on purpose. Ran it years ago and left a bad taste in my mouth. I only expressed my opinion and everyone is entitled to have one including me. I don't mind the dead bird thrown first but still think for the high fee's we pay along with the distances we have to go that all these juniors deserve to at least see a flyer. If you think thats wrong, so be it. I guess I am just a dumb a$$ who wants more for my dogs. First off I wouldn't be running if I thought they wouldn't pick up a live flyer. Been in the game almost 20 years and finished more that a few dogs.
Clay


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Steve Babcock said:


> When I first started gunning at Hunt Tests, we shot pigeons. What would be wrong with bringing pigeons back?


If you think there is a problem with 75 or 80 dollar entry fees now ,just bring back pigeons and see how they holler....Our club does not shoot flyers for the Jr dog but they get all fresh killed birds ..one for each dog...Sundays Jr get all new birds just like Sat...no re used ...We feel there are far more down side issues with the young dogs than the benefit of seeing if they will pick up a fresh shot bird...Steve S


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

You are probably right about the pigeons


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Steve Babcock said:


> Grnhd asked earlier in this thread, "Does a Hunt Test get a dog more amped up than hunting"? The answer is YES. At a Hunt Test, the dog gets let out of a truck, goes into a holding blind and within seconds after leaving the blind the action starts. In hunting you can walk a half mile before getting up a bird or wait an hour before a duck comes in.
> 
> All my dogs know the difference between a trial and hunting. I guide hunters from Sept thru Dec so they hunt a lot.


This X1000. Add the fact that there are several other dogs around and a lot of times you get a dog that is JUBAR. It will be a dog that you have likely never seen before if it is like mine. 

Funny flyer story. At our first JH test this spring, we are at the line and flyer is released and shot. I could tell it was not a kill shot, so I released my dog a nanosecond after the judge said "dog." He is fast anyway, but about a third of the way there the poor duck stuck his head up to see what was going on. My dog caught another gear and covered the last 40 yards or so in about 1.5 seconds, and when he got there he hit the duck like an Alabama linebacker. Thank you gunner and shot flyer!!!


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Our club does not shoot fliers at the Junior Stake. 

You are restraining the dog so breaking is not an issue. 
Plus fliers don' always hit the same area. With young dogs and a larger entry it may cause some more issues with long hunts and dogs getting caught up in the extra scent of shot fliers. Don't always agree with that but that is our clubs policy.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Live flyers in Junior tests = job security for dog trainers. Shoot 4 flyers !


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Steve Babcock said:


> You are probably right about the pigeons


Serious question, What's wrong with pigeons? 

Granted, you would see more variability in where they land but for a JR test is that critical? 

Being more fragile than a duck, they could provide judges w/ an opportunity to spot hard mouth. 

Quite often I've gunned retriever tests where the ducks couldn't even fly so it wasn't really any more attractive to the dog than a dead bird since I had to shoot the bird just as it was falling anyway. 

Pigeons cost less & if there's a missed bird, it'll fly off so it wouldn't delay the test by trying to catch a running duck. 

Seems like a more realstic scenario on land to me anyway since they're just a big dove. 

What's the issue?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> What's the issue?


I judged back when we used pigeons. They are a much smaller bird to mark and lots harder to see in broken tussocky terrain. They have some scent but it gets "airwashed" and takes awhile for it to start rising off the bird compared to a duck. They have more scent than a hen pheasant but a hen pheasant is somewhat easier to spot on the ground, 'course that depends on each fall and each bird. The level of training necessary to keep a dog hunting in the area of the fall is much higher for a pigeon than a duck or pheasant. Couple that to the fact that judges wouldn't always use good sense with them made some poor tests. Also, pigeons are lots of different colors. At 100 yards one pigeon would be visible and the next one in the crate wouldn't be. A hue and cry arose from hunt testers, enough clubs agreed and with a stroke of their voting rights, pigeons were made illegal.

Seriously, I've put a 50 yard single pigeon flyer out into a broken field more than once. We had less than 50% of the dogs pick them up. Variable or almost no wind, flyers not co-operating, gunners who were inconsistent, throwers who couldn't get them where the gunners could get on them........... Bad tests! Bigger heavier birds make the tests easier and more consistent dog to dog.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Sounds legit Howard.


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## GLFLYER (Jun 29, 2004)

Wow, 2 flyers in jr is something not required by the rules. If that is your requirement to attend a tedt, it is going to be a short season.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

THANK YOU ///////////// AND /////////PLEASE NO MORE REPLIES FOR THIS THREAD,............. AFTER READING ALL OF THEM i NO LONGER WANT TO ATTEND
ANOTHER HUNT TEST, ...........AND ALL THE CLUBS CAN SAVE THE MONEY FOR FLYERS.


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## schb02 (Feb 21, 2010)

Brokengunz said:


> THANK YOU ///////////// AND /////////PLEASE NO MORE REPLIES FOR THIS THREAD,............. AFTER READING ALL OF THEM i NO LONGER WANT TO ATTEND
> ANOTHER HUNT TEST, ...........AND ALL THE CLUBS CAN SAVE THE MONEY FOR FLYERS.


Its easy to get flustrated with the hunt tests in general but in the long term of things it does help you learn about your hunting dog and the factors that go along with having a nice hunting dog. I for one would rather not have a flyer in any test I run. The dog is already high. Add a flyer to the mix and his brain gets scrambled. In a hunting situation you have training devices to help keep him in check but not in a test. This is were bad habits start. Join a hunt club and help out at a trial this will enlighten your knowledge in what goes on and you will meet some great people that will help build your wealth of knowledge of dogs. I still remember my first junior and senior tests I ran and very greatfull for everyones help in working thru the failers I had as a handler.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> JH tests are the most important event of the weekend in my opinion. Many folks don't share my opinion. The clubs make good money on the tests and if run properly don't lose money. Every JH test should have a flier in both series. If a MH test thinks they need a flier to get answers the judges aren't doing a good job. Most MH pro trained dogs get plenty of fliers and the fliers at a HT are for their egos. JH tests should get two fliers. They are the easiest and least time consuming tests to run on the grounds. JH test require the least amount of resources and the judges are almost alwasy locally available costing the club no money the majority of the time. They are done in a few hours and take up the least amount of resources.
> 
> Unless there is a reason such as gun safety, two fliers should be given in JH tests to give the dogs test experience. Most JH folks get their bulk of fliers at a test. For the sake of the dog and novice handler, give the two fliers to the JH.
> 
> When clubs "save" the fliers for the MH dogs who are mostly pro trained and get fliers on a regular basis........it's just another sign of the times. It's not for the betterment of the sport. It's to appease the willy-nilly Master-National weekend test.


Pipe down newbie...

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Brokengunz said:


> I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
> I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up. I would think the consensus of handlers would want 2 flyers per event. If the club chooses not to use 2 flyers, say so in the premium, so we can skip that event if inclined to do so. *what are other clubs doing ?*


Your gunna hate HRC.

/Paul


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Good comments Brad. It's not as if HT's are run by commercial conglomerates but rather by a local club handful of volunteers that bust their arses a few times of year to provide an event for people to run in. And proceeds from all that effort support helping and enabling all kinds of people to better their dog work - often for an annual due of about 30 bucks. 

Handlers or clubs looking for entitlement should probably take a hike.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Clayton Evans said:


> Its obvious Paul that you haven't been around any other clubs but your local ones. Clubs like ours only have a couple judges that can judge. You do not use them on every test you run or they will soon burn out and quit judging.
> You are very fortunate to have so many judges available in the Seattle area. If we want to have more local judges they have to come to a semaniar all the way to your clubs as we with very very few members can't afford putting on one for the benefit of the club.
> So all I can say is THANKS Dick, Kent, John, our three local judges, for all you do so we all can enjoy what we do in eastern Wa.
> Clay


You know how many judges there are in the NW? You say you only have 3 local judges. ROFL....

/Paul


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Brokengunz said:


> THANK YOU ///////////// AND /////////PLEASE NO MORE REPLIES FOR THIS THREAD,............. AFTER READING ALL OF THEM i NO LONGER WANT TO ATTEND
> ANOTHER HUNT TEST, ...........AND ALL THE CLUBS CAN SAVE THE MONEY FOR FLYERS.


So we can't look forward to your $75 donation??? This almost has the scent of a JH failure...don't worry it happens to everyone at some point!  It will blow your mind everytime, when a short grass/distance mark goes off and somehow David Copperfield couldn't have done a better job. You won't find many people on RTF that can't tell you a story about that... I've had that happen twice on gimme HRC started tests.

Muddy Bird Down a Hole Reguards,


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

EdA said:


> Is it common for people to drive that far for a hunt test?


All the time.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Brokengunz said:


> THANK YOU ///////////// AND /////////PLEASE NO MORE REPLIES FOR THIS THREAD,............. AFTER READING ALL OF THEM i NO LONGER WANT TO ATTEND
> ANOTHER HUNT TEST, ...........AND ALL THE CLUBS CAN SAVE THE MONEY FOR FLYERS.


No offense, but based on your lack of knowledge of the regs and reasoning skills demonstrated in this thread, I hope you neither think nor deal with the public for a living. 

Enjoy your stamp collecting.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

Duckquilizer said:


> So we can't look forward to your $75 donation??? This almost has the scent of a JH failure...don't worry it happens to everyone at some point!  It will blow your mind everytime, when a short grass/distance mark goes off and somehow David Copperfield couldn't have done a better job. You won't find many people on RTF that can't tell you a story about that... I've had that happen twice on gimme HRC started tests.
> 
> 
> 
> Muddy Bird Down a Hole Reguards,


I hope your dog has a better nose than you. Dog went 4 for 4 in the juniors, and in fact I would have skipped the juniors, except to help out the sport. What triggered this post was, after a long delay on starting the test waiting on gunners, one of the other handlers and myself grabbed our guns and chair and went out to get things going. After the first series ended I asked one of the judges where the next flyer station was, so I could go out and set up. Judge said "the club was not giving them another flyer." That is why I asked the question. When I enter to a test, regardless of JH, SH, MH, I would like to see 2 flyers in the test, that is my opinion, and my dogs like them better than skanky ducks. All the reasons not to have a flyer in a junior are reasons to have one in my book, tests their obedience at the line, test their marking preserverance, and hunting ability in a sented area. Mike Lardy says we put too much pressure on these dogs not to give them flyers, it keeps there attitude up. My dogs would rather go hunting, than sit in the truck at a ht. the costs are about the same. ANd when they find an old dead skanky bird, I tell them to leave it for the next hunt test dog.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

So Gunz why the attitude? The reality of it is what the clubs ARE doing not what we wish they would do.At least they're not using pigeons much any more. The dogs can get their flyers in training to keep the attitude up.If you think hunt tests are rough try field trials. Yes they get flyers but you have to make it through the first series to get more.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

I would like to look it up on entry express if you do not mind. Will you share please? If you look mine up I will have a few fails here and there.


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Certain clubs have to order/buy ALL of the birds ahead of time and the bird steward/seller will not take any back. Our club has to buy birds this way.

At the location of our test, it is often very windy, so often the judges prefer not to shoot a bird on the water, because they want to have a certain 'test' for the dogs and wind and safety issues (judge's decision) cause the lack of a shot flyer. 

So the club is stuck with an extra 50 ducks already paid for and the hassle of trying to sell them at the end of the test IF (and that's a BIG IF) there is a pro willing to buy most of them.

So, this year we had our J/S judges to let us know which of them could easily shoot a flyer on both of their tests, and that pair of judges did that. 
At a test the weekend before, that club was nixing any 2nd flyers, so I thought we were offering a fair compromise (to our budget and the participants) with 3 out of 4 possible flyers, at least.

Remember that often at least 1/2 of the Master dogs never get their 2nd flyer for the weekend, and don't pay much more at all.


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