# What’s the root complaint against British Labs?



## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

I suppose this thread is doomed to stir the pot, but that’s not my intent. Really! 

I was just reading the “British/Irish breeders” thread and it got me wondering something….

If you’re one of what appears to be many folks who have negative feelings of some kind toward British Labs, do those feelings stem from a perception that:

1.	They are inferior hunters and/or HT/FT dogs?
2.	They lack the same health clearances we expect in the US
3.	They’re no better, worse or different than most US field-bred dogs, but are falsely marketed as something separate and superior
4.	They generally have some other undesirable trait I haven’t mentioned

Like I said, I ask not to rile everyone up and start a fight, but because I really don't know enough about the "issue" and want to make informed decisions when I eventually buy my next dog.

I don't intend to buy a so-called British dog, but if (totally hypothetically) I came across a litter of "British-bred" pups with all the health clearances, titled parents, good looks, etc. is there any reason I SHOULDN'T buy one?

Please be nice, everyone 

Thanks

Ryan


----------



## blckdog (Apr 2, 2009)

I'll get the popcorn ready!!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I can't answer about labs, but I'll answer about English golden retrievers just to add the goldens to the thread.
#3 answer for sure, hands down.
3. They’re no better, worse or different than most US field-bred dogs, but are falsely marketed as something separate and superior


----------



## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I can't answer about labs, but I'll answer about English golden retrievers just to add the goldens to the thread.
> #3 answer for sure, hands down.
> 3. They’re no better, worse or different than most US field-bred dogs, but are falsely marketed as something separate and superior


From what little I know (and it's not much, so take this for what it's worth), I'd tend to agree.

But that doesn't mean you should shy away from a British litter, does it?


----------



## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Obabikon said:


> 3.	They’re no better, worse or different than most US field-bred dogs, but are falsely marketed as something separate and superior


They all have terrible teeth 

I don't know whether they are better, worse or even different, but there is a guy in my neighborhood that always makes the point that he has an _*English Lab*_ and some of the neighbors have reported that he makes fun of how my plain old 'Merican QAA labrador looks. It hurts my feelings, so I think anyone who buys them is a big meanie.


----------



## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Number 3 and the fact that most British kennel falsely claim faults in American field bred labs.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

I don't think anyone has expressed complaints about British labs per se.. I think the caution has been to make sure that you look for a quality breeding, not a marketing ploy.... and this pertains to any retriever you may be looking for.

let me know if I'm way off base (I know I don't really need to say that... LOL)


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The reson is 3-the hype, the marketing, the people that come on here and try to convince us we have ruined Labs because we FF and that our Labs have had the natural instinct bred out of them, and also the fact that some people will look for Brits to breed soley because they think they can make more money selling them and they don't know squat about them.


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Obabikon said:


> 3.	They’re no better, worse or different than most US field-bred dogs, but are falsely marketed as something separate and superior.
> Thanks
> 
> Ryan



Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

Haven't seen the other thread, and almost didn't click on this one. ;-)


Edit, PS: Plus, what Nancy said, x2!

PSS: I have personally been around a few of these "gentleman's gun dogs." They were wild, and a couple were vocal!


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

to understand the root problem you have to go back to the early 1600's when these people that wore funny looking outfits decided to leave England get into a wooden boat and land at Plymouth Rock in Mass.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

#3 is going to be your biggest complaint. Has nothing to do with the dogs, but the marketing of such especially when they bad mouth "American" bred dogs.

I've seen first had British dogs working and yes they have a calm disposition on the line, but they have just as much fire in their bellies as US bred dogs. Their training and hunting styles in Europe greatly differ from the US and because of this difference some are trying to market their dogs as better. They aren't - they are still dogs and they still need some one to train them....

FOM


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

They drink their BEER Warm???? Room Temperature I think!


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

They have bad teeth and bark with a funny accent


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> to understand the root problem you have to go back to the early 1600's when these people that wore funny looking outfits decided to leave England get into a wooden boat and land at Plymouth Rock in Mass.


Ahhhhhh religious freedom. 
And because way back that English King wanted a divorce, so they are all Protestant. 
So Bon, your saying it is a Confirmation issue, not a Conformation issue? 




.


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Certainly the false marketing of British Labs is an offense to Am. Lab owners & further compounded by the not so suttle claims contrasting the benefits of the British Lab versus the deficits of the Am Lab.

But in addition, probably the largest, most profitable of all the kennels in the US selling "British" Labs does virtually no health testing and the dogs being bred usually have no titles of any recognized kind. So the type, personality & performance claims have no basis. Further the dogs being bred usually are 1-3 generations past any British heritage where titles can be located. So the claims can be not just false but fraudulent.

This is not a condemnation of British Labs who compete and title in the British games against other titled British dogs according to British rules under the recognized kennel club rules or condemnation of those dogs with British heritage who have titled in the US against recognized AKC or UKC/HRC governing rules. Such British dogs have true credentials and like their American counterparts are legitimate dogs of accomplishment.


----------



## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Do a little Google search for British Labradors and read some of the advertised differences.

We might need a thread about What's the root complaint against American Labs? Then again if you read some of the websites, you'll probably have their answer.


----------



## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

Good thread. I've got 3 UK Labs (1F & 2 M pups) + 1 Golden. I also own 3 N/A Labs. The Golden is half UK & half N/A breeding. 
I've gone the UK route to enhance the breeding in N/A. The UK Labs look like the N/A labs used to look like when I was a kid. Generally, it's been my exp. that the N/A (I'm talking general now) breeders have gone two ways. To many have started to cross over show with working strains which has created a mess. The F/Ters have tended to breed dogs that can take pressure. Nice to watch in the field but hell in the kennel as they tend to be extremely high energy. I have one of those. 
The good UK breeders don't let the show people near their hunting lines. Next, there are more pheasants, grouse in the UK (a area of half the size of Texas) than in Canada and the US put together. They (UK hunters) go into a small field and will push up a ton of birds. So the dogs are already birdy but calm at the same time. If you are mostly a hunter that's a nice combination to have. 

My golden is through the roof and a real tail cracker. His breeding half & half. The only thing that the labs can do better than him is to swim faster in the water. 

Over here in the prairies you can walk for 1/2 an hr before getting into some birds. The birds are few and far between. We need dogs that can last and are birdy when needed. When going after ducks we're into all kinds of different cover and sometimes distance. We need dogs that will not come back until they have the bird. 

My UK and N/A Labs are both great in the field. However, I did take my UK FBL out for a pheasnt hunt at 6 mths old. I ran her with the pack and she was the one who put up 80% of the birds. We limited out on pheasants and sharptails. 

When I'm training dogs I look for 4 things. Intelligence, trainability, desire and a willingness to please. The UK labs score high in all catagories. 

Then there is the disease issue. There seems to be too much disease in the N/M breeding. There's a small gene pool of good N/A dogs. The UK imports could help to enhance the breeding over here.

Again, I'm only generalizing.


----------



## Jason B (Sep 1, 2009)

blckdog said:


> I'll get the popcorn ready!!


Im with ya


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i used to think british labs were all very fat until "gulf coast, mark" posted that pic of his beautiful hrch mh ukblf. another myth busted!

i heard british dogs can only work abroad ten years with their green card, unless breeding occurs with an american lab. also, i heard you get held up in customs because the black dogs don't show up very well in their passport photos.

if the british have soldiers who don't even move when you tickle their mustache or a hottie pulls her shirt up in front of them, (they throw beads at you in the u.s. for that) a steady dog is no big deal!

john mc


----------



## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Hunchaser said:


> Good thread. I've got 3 UK Labs (1F & 2 M pups) + 1 Golden. I also own 3 N/A Labs. The Golden is half UK & half N/A breeding.
> I've gone the UK route to enhance the breeding in N/A. The UK Labs look like the N/A labs used to look like when I was a kid. Generally, it's been my exp. that the N/A (I'm talking general now) breeders have gone two ways. To many have started to cross over show with working strains which has created a mess. The F/Ters have tended to breed dogs that can take pressure. Nice to watch in the field but hell in the kennel as they tend to be extremely high energy. I have one of those.
> The good UK breeders don't let the show people near their hunting lines. Next, there are more pheasants, grouse in the UK (a area of half the size of Texas) than in Canada and the US put together. They (UK hunters) go into a small field and will push up a ton of birds. So the dogs are already birdy but calm at the same time. If you are mostly a hunter that's a nice combination to have.
> 
> ...


Lots of generalizations! The type of generalizations that make most reputable N/A breeders upset at UK bred breeders as they are just that generalizations that come from misinformation, or lack of information. I was going to go through this post and reply to the individual misconceptions and dissprove them all, but it would take too much of my time. I will just say that this posts theme pretty much sums up the entire reason why most N/A field breeders have a disslike about the UK breeder "spin", notice I did not say anything about the dog? I guess that 50% N/A in your golden is also holding it back in it's water speed?


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Hunchaser said:


> There seems to be too much disease in the N/M breeding. Guessing this was meant to be N/A
> 
> There's a small gene pool of good N/A dogs.
> 
> *Again, I'm only generalizing*.



I agree with the bolded part. Other than that everyone can generalize the Brit/irish dogs as well as the english style, and the american style.

Small gene pool of good dogs though is a stretch, good dogs is a very very general term. What is good exactly? A FC, or JH, or MH, or agility titles, or bench champion? I am sure the opinion differs quite a bit on what "Good" Means. I have know some great meat dogs. That have no titles or any idea what country they came from.


----------



## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

TN_LAB said:


> We might need a thread about What's the root complaint against American Labs?


Their President


----------



## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

roseberry said:


> i used to think british labs were all very fat until "gulf coast, mark" posted that pic of his beautiful hrch mh ukblf. another myth busted!
> 
> i heard british dogs can only work abroad ten years with their green card, unless breeding occurs with an american lab. also, i heard you get held up in customs because the black dogs don't show up very well in their passport photos.
> 
> ...


Having a steady dog is not big deal. I had one once but I sold him. However, it is a big deal when upland game bird hunting. It's more fun if your dog will listen and stay within gun range.


----------



## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

Misty Marsh said:


> Lots of generalizations! The type of generalizations that make most reputable N/A breeders upset at UK bred breeders as they are just that generalizations that come from misinformation, or lack of information. I was going to go through this post and reply to the individual misconceptions and dissprove them all, but it would take too much of my time. I will just say that this posts theme pretty much sums up the entire reason why most N/A field breeders have a disslike about the UK breeder "spin", notice I did not say anything about the dog? I guess that 50% N/A in your golden is also holding it back in it's water speed?


I think my golden boy, Magic, is slower in the water because of his thick coat. On land he's just as fast if not faster than the labs. He sure has great water enteries.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Hunchaser said:


> I think my golden boy, Magic, is slower in the water because of his thick coat. On land he's just as fast if not faster than the labs. He sure has great water enteries.


Ha ha ha....too funny!

Since when does the "friction" from a dog's coat slow it down in the water??

WRL


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Hunchaser said:


> Having a steady dog is not big deal. I had one once but I sold him. However, it is a big deal when upland game bird hunting. It's more fun if your dog will listen and stay within gun range.


I have 20 of those....and guess what? Not one of them are UK labs.

Its called T R A I N I N G......

WRL


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Hunchaser said:


> My UK and N/A Labs are both great in the field. However, I did take my UK FBL out for a pheasnt hunt at 6 mths old. I ran her with the pack and she was the one who put up 80% of the birds. We limited out on pheasants and sharptails.
> 
> When I'm training dogs I look for 4 things. Intelligence, trainability, desire and a willingness to please. The UK labs score high in all catagories.
> 
> .


How is her steady to wing and shot?

Just a few of your statements stand out. You talk about TRAINABILITY but it really sounds like you don't do much TRAINING with your dogs.

I could pick out several statements that have me coming to that conclusion, but I am sure your mind is all made up about the UK dogs so I won't bother.

Your whole post shows why most people are anti-British retrievers. Its not the dogs, it IS the people.

WRL


----------



## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

The problem is not, I think, with the "dogs." Many of them are great dogs, if not very common in the HT and especially FT worlds due to the folks that tend to buy them. The animosity comes with the "marketing material" that some, not all, sellers of "british" dogs engage in to make their dogs more appealing and enhance market share. I have always wondered how many generations from an imported dog it takes before a dog is no longer "british," but I digress. 

I happen to own a UK FT line bitch because my wife, not knowing anything about US v. UK labs other than she liked another dog from a certain kennel, got me a puppy for Christmas. Mine has no idea she is supposedly "different" than her US cousins. I can vouch that mine did not "naturally" come with a solid delivery to hand, train herself, or refrain from chewing anything she could get between her teeth, or pass every hunt test with flying colors (due to the ijit that trained her). She does have a deep, bizzare burning hatred for possums. I wonder if that is trans-atlantic genetics? ;-)

Good dogs are where you find them!


----------



## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

The best retriever I ever had was straight from England, I brought her in as a pup. She was mello at home but put the after burners on for game. One thing she would do that I don't see many dogs do is just take a swim. She had access to my whole back yard, there would be plenty of times I be looking for her and she would be swimming like a kid for hours. I'd lower the temp in the whirl pool and should would sit on that bench hanging out.


----------



## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

MarkyMark said:


> One thing she would do that I don't see many dogs do is just take a swim.


Had a friend that had an English Pointer that had to have a check cord on it because it wouldn't come out of the neighbors pond for hours. Now that something you don't see a lot of that breed do often, but a lot of labs I have owned and known swim on their own all the time.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> Their President


You da' man, Bubba! 

Evan


----------



## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Hunchaser said:


> I think my golden boy, Magic, is slower in the water because of his thick coat. On land he's just as fast if not faster than the labs. He sure has great water enteries.


I see, coat thickness, makes sence, as I look for a "eye roll" icon!.


----------



## annielab (Dec 1, 2010)

Mines a block head


----------



## Jake Althaus (Nov 25, 2010)

bjoiner said:


> Their President


That is hilarious!


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2011)

#3

PT Barnum would have sold British Labs if he had the chance.


----------



## obsessed (Aug 3, 2010)

To answer the original post: I have a 6 year old black male english lab. The reasons I went with the english is basically the smaller size, intellagence and trainability. He is about 65-68 pounds and extremely fast. He was extremely easy to train due to his intelegence and temprament. He did not need alot of pressure to get your point across. I did force fetch him and trained him the "American" way with a few modifications such as not alot of pressure as mentioned before. Over all I could not ask for a better dog. Some of the guys I train with and even a couple of trainers I know had a negitive few on english labs until they met mine. Now they are very impressed. He is a HRCH / MH. But I would suggest as others that you look for Pedigree and see if you can look at the parents etc just like you would with any breed. I would never hesitate to have another english lab.


----------



## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

British Labs sit on the wrong side of the blind and heel on the right.


----------



## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

WRL said:


> Its not the dogs, it IS the people.


There is the answer


----------



## MarkinMissouri (Aug 29, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> Ahhhhhh religious freedom.
> And because way back that English King wanted a divorce, so they are all Protestant.
> So Bon, your saying it is a Confirmation issue, not a Conformation issue?
> .


A little High Brow Humor? How British


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Amen Lee!!! It is the people. It frosts my butt that people think that just because their dog is English, British, Spanish, Italian or from Mars-it is automatically superior to every other dog on the planet. When I hear comments about I got my english lab or golden because it is smarter or easier to train then let's say my Californication dreaming retriever(hey he is 5, he's peaking) ......well I for one, think that the owner is full of crap. 

Weezie's folks are from England-who gives a rip? I'm still waiting for her to start barking with a english accent....................


----------



## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

After seeing some videos on RTF some time back showing British Field Trials -totally impressed, I don't think there is such a thing as a British Lab. I think there are Field Labs and Show Labs because the labs in that video sure resembled the field labs here in US.


----------



## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

Moderators - can we delete this thread and block all future threads on American vs. English Labs? 

I can't think of another RTF subject that has been pulled up from the grave and beaten up time and time again. Who cares.


----------



## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

obsessed said:


> To answer the original post: I have a 6 year old black male english lab. The reasons I went with the english is basically the smaller size, intellagence and trainability. He is about 65-68 pounds and extremely fast. He was extremely easy to train due to his intelegence and temprament. He did not need alot of pressure to get your point across. I did force fetch him and trained him the "American" way with a few modifications such as not alot of pressure as mentioned before. Over all I could not ask for a better dog. Some of the guys I train with and even a couple of trainers I know had a negitive few on english labs until they met mine. Now they are very impressed. He is a HRCH / MH. But I would suggest as others that you look for Pedigree and see if you can look at the parents etc just like you would with any breed. I would never hesitate to have another english lab.


That's exactly what I'm talking about!


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Are there British Golden Retrievers and does the same animosity and rivalries exist


trying to help out in the worst way....


----------



## Bushmills (Sep 26, 2010)

Moderators.....I'm all for wrapping this up, sometimes it just gets people agitated. After all, Labs become champions no matter if they're British or American....it all depends on the training, and hopefully we can all learn from each other and respect our dogs and their feelings.

James
President - British Labrador Retriever Association (Canada)


----------



## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Pete said:


> I vote we change the subject to collar conditioning.
> 
> Pete


Not until we get past the issues of force fetch, color, gender, which DVD to buy and HT vs FT   

For the record, I drive a Dodge Ram.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

yes, and yes




BonMallari said:


> Are there British Golden Retrievers and does the same animosity and rivalries exist
> 
> 
> trying to help out in the worst way....


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I have one of each and believe that the breeding is the key. Mine is a REAL first generation English lab, both parents are first generation imports.

My English dog is noisy and skittish relative to her cool as a cucumber "American" brother, but I don't think that's because she's English alone. My sister has a half litter mate to my English dog and she's just as noisy and hates the water. I think it's just that breeding vs, the overall lineage going back to the UK.


----------



## Bushmills (Sep 26, 2010)

How about changing the subject to something completely different.

After a long day out in the field training your Lab(s) or other breed,
What is your favorite beer to drink?? 


SOMETHING DIFFERENT.....RIGHT!!!


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Bushmills said:


> How about changing the subject to something completely different.
> 
> After a long day out in the field training your Lab(s) or other breed,
> What is your favorite beer to drink??
> ...



Alright.....You crazy dang brits drink WARM beer. Bleeccchhhh! How's that for a friendlier subject;-)


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

The most obvious issue, for people that "compete" with labs in the US, is that there are nearly zero English or Irish bred labradors with any field trial accomplishments at all in the US or Canada. Some may have placed once in qualifying or derby but I'd be surprised if any got very far in all age stakes. So the interest in UK breeding is nill. I assume there have been no US bred dogs with accomplishments in Ireland or the UK either. 

I always though an interesting experiment would be to take half a dozen or so puppies from several top field trial breedings actually bred in the UK and Ireland from FTC's or Field Trial Winners and exchange them for US and Canadian puppies from field champion breeding. Puppies would be shipped across the pond at 8 weeks, exchange ownership and be raised, trained and competed by people who have high level field trial accomplishments in their respective country and the ability and wherewithal to give each puppy the best opportunity to succeed. 
Would need a few sponsors with some spare change.


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

My answer to the original question would be "many of the people who promote them."



obsessed said:


> To answer the original post: I have a 6 year old black male english lab. The reasons I went with the english is basically the smaller size, intellagence and trainability. He is about 65-68 pounds and extremely fast. He was extremely easy to train due to his intelegence and temprament. He did not need alot of pressure to get your point across. I did force fetch him and trained him the "American" way with a few modifications such as not alot of pressure as mentioned before. Over all I could not ask for a better dog. Some of the guys I train with and even a couple of trainers I know had a negitive few on english labs until they met mine. Now they are very impressed. He is a HRCH / MH. But I would suggest as others that you look for Pedigree and see if you can look at the parents etc just like you would with any breed. I would never hesitate to have another english lab.





Hunchaser said:


> That's exactly what I'm talking about!


Agreed. I wonder if he had any idea how arrogant and pompous it sounds to say he bought an English lab for the "intellagence and trainability" (the obvious implication being that "American" labs are lacking in those areas)....but it is funny that he misspelled intelligence.


----------



## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

HuntinDawg said:


> My answer to the original question would be "many of the people who promote them."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nobody ever said the owner had to be smart, since British labs practically train themselves.


----------



## Bushmills (Sep 26, 2010)

What happened to the beer?
Bud, Coors lite.....c'mon guys this post is making me thirsty.


----------



## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

I like British and North American beer..

As a matter of fact,,Newcastle is one of my favs....


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Bushmills said:


> How about changing the subject to something completely different.
> 
> After a long day out in the field training your Lab(s) or other breed,
> What is your favorite beer to drink??
> ...


 
Thats easy,
The very best beer is.......


FREE!!!!!
Given by a friend from the cooler in the back of the truck.




.


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

There was time in these forums when folks confused the fat plodders called by the US Show fraternity "British" with all British dogs including the field strain. 

I claim a modest part in demonstrating that the working British Lab is remarkably similar to his US counterpart. As per the pics at http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61507 

A country which drinks Miller Lite in industrial quantities has nothing to tell civilised nations about beer. 

Eug


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bushmills said:


> How about changing the subject to something completely different.
> 
> After a long day out in the field training your Lab(s) or other breed,
> What is your favorite beer to drink??
> ...


Here at home Boddingtons (only thing I can get)

In country almost any bitter is good...


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Colonel Blimp said:


> A country which drinks Miller Lite in industrial quantities has nothing to tell civilised nations about beer.
> 
> Eug


Right on Eugene!


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> A country which drinks Miller Lite in industrial quantities has nothing to tell civilised nations about beer.
> Eug


Yes, isn't that terrible. UGH. There is a place in Chicago that carries hundred of imports, and at least 30 on tap-at least some people have taste. At the London pubs I endeavored to drink a different brew every time, and there wasn't enough time.


----------



## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Don't get a Canadian going on US beer either!


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

This is a good beer. HPW


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Bushmills said:


> Moderators.....I'm all for wrapping this up, sometimes it just gets people agitated. After all, Labs become champions no matter if they're British or American....it all depends on the training, and hopefully we can all learn from each other and respect our dogs and their feelings.
> 
> *James*
> *President - British Labrador Retriever Association (Canada)*


So James, as president of the noted association, 1) what do you & your organization do to dispel the false claims of those who breed Labs of British heritiage? 2) What do you & your association do to encourage and enforce truth in advertising? 3) Exactly at what generation does a Lab born in North America become no longer a "British" Lab?

And if you don't do any of these things (which I suppose), I assume you & your association are part of the problems related to 1-3 above which cause the mainstream field Lab owner in north America to be skeptical at best about claims made by breeders of "British" Labs in north America.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

This is a very good beer too


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> There was time in these forums when folks confused the fat plodders called by the US Show fraternity "British" with all British dogs including the field strain.
> 
> I claim a modest part in demonstrating that the working British Lab is remarkably similar to his US counterpart. As per the pics at http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61507
> 
> ...


Say WHAT????











*RK*


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

HarryWilliams said:


> This is a good beer. HPW


I agree & reasonably priced, at least in GA. My beer of choice these days.


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> So James, as president of the noted association, 1) what do you & your organization do to dispel the false claims of those who breed Labs of British heritiage? 2) What do you & your association do to encourage and enforce truth in advertising? 3) Exactly at what generation does a Lab born in North America become no longer a "British" Lab?
> 
> And if you don't do any of these things (which I suppose), I assume you & your association are part of the problems related to 1-3 above which cause the mainstream field Lab owner in north America to be skeptical at best about claims made by breeders of "British" Labs in north America.


Actually prefer whiskey (more portable). Besides which- if it wasn't for the Miller beer drinking Americans- you would be drinking German beer.

Granddaddy asks an excellent question(s) and I would be very interested in the answer.

Finally Friday regards

Bubba


----------



## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

For the OP, greatness comes in the form of an individual dog, nation of birth has little or nothing to do with it.

As for the beer -- solved that problem years ago -- quit drinkin' the stuff!


----------



## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

WRL said:


> How is her steady to wing and shot?
> 
> Just a few of your statements stand out. You talk about TRAINABILITY but it really sounds like you don't do much TRAINING with your dogs.
> 
> ...


I wasnt going to respond as I see it as a waste of time. However, I will clarify a couple of things. I've been trained by pros and have been working dogs since 1991. I'm now retired and train hunting dogs and started dogs for pure enjoyment. I train to F/T quailfing level with lots of upland work.

In the warm weather I do mostly water training just like everyone else. Before I start to train I take the pack on a 2 mile run along the river. Then we start to train. At the end of the session we go for a long walk then at the end of thewalk I use a tennis ball and racquet and hit it into the water. The entire pack goes after the ball. I usually run 6 - 8 dogs. I had 2 goldens on my truck and 5 labs. On the short throws the Goldens were right on top of the ball and mostly beat the Labs. On the long throws the Goldens sledomed got the ball. 

If nothing else a dog trainer is a keen observer of what is happening in the field. Why did the Labs beat the Goldens on the long throws? 

My dogs have no fat on them and their mucscles are like rocks. So I ruled out fitness. These Goldens had a ton of desire so I ruled out desire. The only thing that I could come up with is the thickness/length of their coats. 

If I'm wrong I'm open to suggestions and corrections.


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Granddaddy said:


> So James, as president of the noted association, 1) what do you & your organization do to dispel the false claims of those who breed Labs of British heritiage? 2) What do you & your association do to encourage and enforce truth in advertising? 3) Exactly at what generation does a Lab born in North America become no longer a "British" Lab?
> 
> And if you don't do any of these things (which I suppose), I assume you & your association are part of the problems related to 1-3 above which cause the mainstream field Lab owner in north America to be skeptical at best about claims made by breeders of "British" Labs in north America.



I am curious.

In the US:
There are approximately 1 million waterfowlers with retrievers
There are under 50,000 Hunt test participants
There are under 5,000 Field Trial participants

Which one constitutes "main stream field Lab owner?"


----------



## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

rmilner said:


> I am curious.
> 
> In the US:
> There are approximately 1 million waterfowlers with retrievers
> ...


In what way does the nationality of the dog change that?


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

tom said:


> In what way does the nationality of the dog change that?



The nationality of dog has nothing to do with the question.


I am asking, "who are the 'mainstream field Lab owners' in the USA?"


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

rmilner said:


> The nationality of dog has nothing to do with the question.
> 
> 
> I am asking, "who are the 'mainstream field Lab owners' in the USA?"


Anybody who owns a non brit lab who is told/led/marketed to believe that because their dog is not from across the pond they are inferior. That is kind of how it was phrased below.



> And if you don't do any of these things (which I suppose), I assume you & your association are part of the problems related to 1-3 above which cause the mainstream field Lab owner in north America to be skeptical at best about claims made by breeders of "British" Labs in north America.


Thats how I read it anyway. That every brit lab breeder says these are the best gentlemens gun dogs...and so on.

But I am curious about the answers to this as well



> 1) what do you & your organization do to dispel the false claims of those who breed Labs of British heritiage? 2) What do you & your association do to encourage and enforce truth in advertising? 3) Exactly at what generation does a Lab born in North America become no longer a "British" Lab?


----------



## Take'em (Nov 29, 2006)

Jason Glavich said:


> Anybody who owns a non brit lab who is told/led/marketed to believe that because their dog is not from across the pond they are inferior. That is kind of how it was phrased below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is nauseating.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Take'em said:


> This is nauseating.


Would you care to explain? 

A question was asked I gave my thoughts on the answer.


----------



## Take'em (Nov 29, 2006)

Jason Glavich said:


> Would you care to explain?
> 
> A question was asked I gave my thoughts on the answer.


The whole debate is nauseating and as predictable as yesterday's news. Who cares? A good dog's a good dog. Maybe if some people had thicker skin they wouldn't find trivial comments so offensive. When I hear comments suggesting that British dogs are "fad" dogs, that the people that buy them have fallen for a marketing scheme...it makes me laugh. Water off a ducks back.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

You obviously don't understand the culture of this site...

Some topics go viral... this is one of them. Perfectly predictable. So, to prevent nausea, when you see a subject title like this don't click on it. Its a remedy that works wonders....


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Take'em said:


> The whole debate is nauseating and as predictable as yesterday's news. Who cares? A good dog's a good dog. Maybe if some people had thicker skin they wouldn't find trivial comments so offensive. When I hear comments suggesting that British dogs are "fad" dogs, that the people that buy them have fallen for a marketing scheme...it makes me laugh. Water off a ducks back.


Seems reall odd to me that if this whole thread is nauseating, predictable and your garden variety water off a duck kinda trivial that you would invest the time and energy to read it end to end and post up comments.

Make up yer dern mind regards

Bubba


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Take'em said:


> The whole debate is nauseating and as predictable as yesterday's news. Who cares? A good dog's a good dog. Maybe if some people had thicker skin they wouldn't find trivial comments so offensive. When I hear comments suggesting that British dogs are "fad" dogs, that the people that buy them have fallen for a marketing scheme...it makes me laugh. Water off a ducks back.


Ah so you find the whole thread nauseating... why open it? You say thick skin but are feeling nauseated by reading it.

Guess we all typed at the same time.


----------



## Take'em (Nov 29, 2006)

Bubba said:


> Seems reall odd to me that if this whole thread is nauseating, predictable and your garden variety water off a duck kinda trivial that you would invest the time and energy to read it end to end and post up comments.
> 
> Make up yer dern mind regards
> 
> Bubba


What else is a dog geek supposed to do when he doesn't really feel like working?


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

NOW we are on the same page.

It's Friday and I ain't kicking no anthills regards

Bubba


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Hunchaser said:


> I wasnt going to respond as I see it as a waste of time. However, I will clarify a couple of things. I've been trained by pros and have been working dogs since 1991. I'm now retired and train hunting dogs and started dogs for pure enjoyment. I train to F/T quailfing level with lots of upland work.
> 
> In the warm weather I do mostly water training just like everyone else. Before I start to train I take the pack on a 2 mile run along the river. Then we start to train. At the end of the session we go for a long walk then at the end of thewalk I use a tennis ball and racquet and hit it into the water. The entire pack goes after the ball. I usually run 6 - 8 dogs. I had 2 goldens on my truck and 5 labs. On the short throws the Goldens were right on top of the ball and mostly beat the Labs. On the long throws the Goldens sledomed got the ball.
> 
> ...


You still didn't answer the question. How is the steady to shot and flight on the 6 month old dog? I don't know ANY EXPERIENCED dog trainer that would hunt an untrained 6 month old. So she must me trained right? Also. if you are "training to FT qual level" why do you have 4 AMERICAN Labs that don't listen nor stay within gun range?

WRL


----------



## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

rmilner said:


> I am curious.
> 
> In the US:
> There are approximately 1 million waterfowlers with retrievers
> ...


I'm new here so I'll tread lightly but I agree with what I believe Mr. Milner is trying to say. The majority of duck hunters I know want a dog that does three things: Steady, quite, and likes to hunt/retrieve as much as they do. Most hunters dont want to spend the time training or pay someone else to train a dog to run 400 yard blinds. I'm not saying that British dogs are superior in any of these three areas or easier to train. I don't believe that and I have not owned enough labs to know. If British Breeders are playing up the positives then I think that's good marketing. If they are running down other breeds then I think that will catch up to them. I have some competitors that badmouth our company but I never let us stoop to that level. I will say that I had multiple American FT breeders say some terrible things about British Labs when I told them i was considering both.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It seems to me the same people make the rounds of boards to stir up trouble with highly inflammatory statements and ridiculous generalizations. I bet it coincides with weak sales and interest because it's always the SOS, my dog is better than yours.


----------



## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Goosetree said:


> If British Breeders are playing up the positives then I think that's good marketing. If they are running down other breeds then I think that will catch up to them.


Google British Labradors and as we used to say as a kid while watching football on TV......"you make the call" (wish they'd bring that segment back to TV...lots of good memories with my dad and brothers trying to guess correctly)


----------



## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

rmilner said:


> The nationality of dog has nothing to do with the question.
> 
> 
> I am asking, "who are the 'mainstream field Lab owners' in the USA?"


Pet owners on probably a scale of 1,000 to one


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Goosetree said:


> *I'm new here so I'll tread lightly* but I agree with what I believe Mr. Milner is trying to say. The majority of duck hunters I know want a dog that does three things: Steady, quite, and likes to hunt/retrieve as much as they do. Most hunters dont want to spend the time training or pay someone else to train a dog to run 400 yard blinds. I'm not saying that British dogs are superior in any of these three areas or easier to train. I don't believe that and I have not owned enough labs to know. If British Breeders are playing up the positives then I think that's good marketing. If they are running down other breeds then I think that will catch up to them. I have some competitors that badmouth our company but I never let us stoop to that level. * I will say that I had multiple American FT breeders say some terrible things about British Labs when I told them i was considering both.*



that's your idea of treading lightly...kind of a broad generalization you throw out there


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

A correct golden coat should not drag in the water any more than feathers on a duck. An incorrect coat, which is open, soft, etc. might.
Here's a pretty nice description of a proper golden coat:
“The Golden's should be a "closed coat" (new term) - the tough, resilient topcoat overlies the undercoat and protects it, forming a neat covering over the entire body-- like a duck's feathers overlie the insulating down. The dog's feathering is only enough to form a nice "drip edge" that helps water run off and away from the body and legs. Coat on the back of the thighs and on the tail is especially thick, in order to insulate these areas when the dog is sitting on cold wet ground. Thick coat on the neck and chest also protects the dog when going through tough cover. (If you've had the opportunity to experience wild heather on the Scottish hillsides or brambles in North America, you'll realize why this sort of protection is needed). “
- Marcia Schlehr 



Hunchaser said:


> My dogs have no fat on them and their mucscles are like rocks. So I ruled out fitness. These Goldens had a ton of desire so I ruled out desire. The only thing that I could come up with is the thickness/length of their coats.
> 
> If I'm wrong I'm open to suggestions and corrections.


----------



## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

BonMallari said:


> that's your idea of treading lightly...kind of a broad generalization you throw out there


You might want to find the definition of "generalization". I never said all American breeders. I said I had "muliple". That means more than one. I'm in no way defending putting down someone's product. I'm saying that both sides are guilty to some extent.


----------



## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

I am wondering how many of us have read about the origins, early development and history of The Labrador Retriever? 
Seems to me they're all from Britain...from Newfoundland to England to America.
A good book, that Mr. Joe DeLoia suggested to me, is: The Complete Labrador Retriever by Helen Warwick. It's got a red cover with a photograph of CH. Banchory Cottager on the front. ISBN 0-87605-205-7
It's excellent.
Here's a quote: 'It is fortunate indeed for The Labrador that's it's small beginnings were given impetus by the most capable hands in the British Isles.
It was further to their advantage there and later in America, that their start was developed in circles other than commercial - which maybe the main reason why they are still fundamentally unspoiled, unharmed by passing trends and plebeian tastes.'


----------



## Bushmills (Sep 26, 2010)

It's quite apparent that the owners of N.American Labs believe the people who are into British bred Labs are putting American bred Labs down....NOT SO period. The people across the pond have nothing bad to say about the N.American Labs.
Let's get a grip on things.....whether the Lab is British bred or American bred, whats the difference....train the dog properly and humanely and you will still or should come out with a F.T. champ.
Those who have British Labs whether they import, breed, train or other, we DO state positive attributes to the breed and DO NOT have a negative outlook on American bred Labs or their owners/handlers.
All of us should be in it for the sport and not to put others down, if we start doing this then how can we expect to attract newcomers.
Listen to the experts, Robert Milner for instance.....who is one of the many successful breeders/trainers/handlers in the U.S. He(R.Milner) also works with people across the pond.


----------



## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Bushmills said:


> It's quite apparent that the owners of N.American Labs believe the people who are into British bred Labs are putting American bred Labs down....NOT SO period. The people across the pond have nothing bad to say about the N.American Labs.
> Let's get a grip on things.....whether the Lab is British bred or American bred, whats the difference....train the dog properly and humanely and you will still or should come out with a F.T. champ.
> Those who have British Labs whether they import, breed, train or other, we DO state positive attributes to the breed and DO NOT have a negative outlook on American bred Labs or their owners/handlers.
> All of us should be in it for the sport and not to put others down, if we start doing this then how can we expect to attract newcomers.
> Listen to the experts, Robert Milner for instance.....who is one of the many successful breeders/trainers/handlers in the U.S. He(R.Milner) also works with people across the pond.


It's only offensive when someone says something like, I chose to get a British Lab because of higher intelligence and trainability. Statements like that are both ignorant and infuriating. It's the same as someone saying that they chose an N/A Lab because they prefer speed and style over a little piggy plodding along in the field. Both points of view are equally ignorant in my opinion.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Bushmills said:


> Those who have British Labs whether they import, breed, train or other, we DO state positive attributes to the breed and DO NOT have a negative outlook on American bred Labs or their owners/handlers.
> All of us should be in it for the sport and not to put others down, if we start doing this then how can we expect to attract newcomers.
> .





> _Ah the British Labs.....good teeth, good manners, well trained as they sit together....all done without E-collar (*the lazy man's way of training*)._


I believe this is a quote from one of your posts.


----------



## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Goosetree said:


> You might want to find the definition of "generalization". I never said all American breeders. I said I had "muliple". That means more than one. I'm in no way defending putting down someone's product. I'm saying that both sides are guilty to some extent.


Yeah, but THEY started it!

Just kidding!


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Others have already answered the same way I would. 

But since I am heavily associated with this debate, I just wanted to go on the record by echoing their sentiments --

The problem is not the dogs, the problem is the way they are marketed, by dishonestly claiming American-bred labs were ruined by FTers and are inferior for the average hunter.


----------



## Bushmills (Sep 26, 2010)

Good point Kevin......and to the post reply by Nancy P. ......did I say anything negative about the Labs either American or British? NO I did not.
Only a comment on the e-collar which is a matter of preference. Read my post carefully, IT DOESN'T matter which side of the pond the Lab is bred. I just prefer British bred Labs and....yes I have owned American bred Labs which were fantastic dogs in the field and the house.


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Bushmills said:


> It's quite apparent that the owners of N.American Labs believe the people who are into British bred Labs are putting American bred Labs down....NOT SO period.


British-Lab breeders in the states are on the record claiming several falsehoods about American-bred Labs such as they "need to be force-fetched to retrieve," and marking is so important in American FTs that "the ability to use their nose has been bred out," and straight lines to marks are so important "the natural inclination to quarter has been bred out," and they are too hyper for the average hunter, and on and on.

You can currently find these types of claims on the Wildrose Kennels website, and other places on the Internet.

Bob Milner, participating on this very thread, if he is honest will tell you he too does now or has in the past advocated these very positions and more on American-bred Labs, and for that reason touts the British-bred.


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Bushmills said:


> It's quite apparent that the owners of N.American Labs believe the people who are into British bred Labs are putting American bred Labs down....NOT SO period. The people across the pond have nothing bad to say about the N.American Labs.
> Let's get a grip on things.....whether the Lab is British bred or American bred, whats the difference....train the dog properly and humanely and you will still or should come out with a F.T. champ.
> Those who have British Labs whether they import, breed, train or other, we DO state positive attributes to the breed and DO NOT have a negative outlook on American bred Labs or their owners/handlers.
> All of us should be in it for the sport and not to put others down, if we start doing this then how can we expect to attract newcomers.
> Listen to the experts, Robert Milner for instance.....who is one of the many successful breeders/trainers/handlers in the U.S. He(R.Milner) also works with people across the pond.


Well now I'm really confused. I just this minit surfed up from the "expert's" very own web page:



> Therefore, a primary key to the British Labrador's success in the field is genetic selection. Many American-bred Labs have been indiscriminantly bred for color, confirmation, or convenience often with little regard to game-finding instinct, trainability or natural retrieving desire. Other matings have resulted in a hyperactive, head strong, or hard dog that may prove too high powered or "hardheaded" for the average sportsman.
> 
> Some of the deficiencies that may occur in the American Lab have been masked by force training methods. For instance, a British trainer discards a hard-mouth or hyperactive dog and does not repeat the mating. American handlers have tendencies to "train it out" through force conditioning methods. Unfortunately if such an animal is later bred, the deficit is likely transferred to future generations.


So who am I to believe? You or my lying eyes?

Sure gonna piss Lilly off when I tell her that she is too hardheaded for us to get along anymore.

Maybe I'll get a Border Collie to replace her regards

Bubba


----------



## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Well now I'm really confused. I just this minit surfed up from the "expert's" very own web page:
> 
> 
> So who am I to believe? You or my lying eyes?
> ...


I'm sorta with you on this.

I've seen a lot of British Lab web pages that describe American Labs with terms like "amped" up and "high strung" Even saw one using the term "mechanical"


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

My opinions on breeding breeding selection relative to American Field Trials and British Field Trials are postedk on www.fetchpup.com and have been posted there since 2000. If you are confused about my opinions feel free to read it there.


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

rmilner said:


> My opinions on breeding breeding selection relative to American Field Trials and British Field Trials are postedk on www.fetchpup.com and have been posted there since 2000. If you are confused about my opinions feel free to read it there.


Ya I know it well.

I print that out everytime the redhead forgets to buy TP.

Opinions are like........ regards

Bubba


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

This is most educational and entertaining.

I am learning much as I sit here consuming industrial amounts of Miller Light!!


But, as I have been instructed, my pinky is out*!!*

*RK*


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

There is some truth to lack of interest in the importance of "nose" in American breeding over the years. If you could search every lab puppy ad ever posted on RTF, you won't find any mention of the word nose unless someone is talking about a dudley. On the other side of the pond I think you could say one of their clearance questions would be does the bitch have a good nose". Never even considered here. 
While not scientific, as it's only an example of one of my own dogs, I have a labrador from decent UK-Irish field trial breeding that I got from Alex Brant a well known wing shooter. This dog continually surprises me with what she notices with her nose that my seriously bred US dogs don't notice at all. It's quite a remarkable difference actually. 
I think Lane at K2 may want to look into acquiring a few dogs from Ireland and see how they do at IED detection.


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Robert said:


> Moderators - can we delete this thread and block all future threads on American vs. English Labs?
> 
> I can't think of another RTF subject that has been pulled up from the grave and beaten up time and time again. Who cares.





Bushmills said:


> Moderators.....I'm all for wrapping this up, sometimes it just gets people agitated. After all, Labs become champions no matter if they're British or American....it all depends on the training, and hopefully we can all learn from each other and respect our dogs and their feelings.
> 
> James
> President - British Labrador Retriever Association (Canada)


Sorry, folks. After reading this thread, I see no reason for Moderators to step in to close, delete or lock the thread. Everyone pretty much seems to be observing the "golden rule".

If the OP wants to delete the thread, he has that option.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

GDG post- 

Everytime I see a "British" anything thread I end up repeating this in my best British accent....almost every time I see them pop up, over and over......

"if you don't eat you meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Very telling , Paul.....;-) gotta love Floyd


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Breck said:


> There is some truth to lack of interest in the importance of "nose" in American breeding over the years. If you could search every lab puppy ad ever posted on RTF, you won't find any mention of the word nose unless someone is talking about a dudley.


Hey Breck to me when someone puts in their ad that the sire and dam are great markers that implicitly includes the nose.
I don't believe I have ever seen a dog win a FT without using his nose on the marks


----------



## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

Pete said:


> Howdy Breck
> 
> I always thought that people didn't mention good noses for the same reason they don't mention the dog has 4 legs.
> 
> ...


Do you pheasant hunt?


----------



## Bushmills (Sep 26, 2010)

I'm gracefully bowing out of this post....gone on far too long....I have dogs to look after and train.
Have fun everyone.
P.S. I believe it's 'Miller Time'


----------



## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

Pete said:


> Yes
> years and years ago when I hunted them nearly every day of the season,,my dog learned the difference between a hen and a rooster,,just from the scent. Not bad for a yankee.
> 
> Pete


My time spent with pointing dogs tells me that some dogs have better noses than others. We would plant pigeons for potential customers and let thier current dog work the bird. Then turn out one of our dogs and when they drilled the pigeon at about 40 feet the dog was sold. Pointing dog breeders take noses pretty serious. That is the difference between a trail prospect and a meat dog...in many cases.


----------



## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

Pete said:


> So your potential customers,,,were they coming to you to train their dogs ,,if so do you think that maby they were because their dogs werent good at finding birds? And were your pointers brittish and your customerrs american
> I'm trying to figure out what your trying to say.
> 
> Buy the way I've trained brittish dogs and I like them as a matter of fact. I have liked most of the european dogs I've worked with. Not just from Great Brittin. I also appreciate their differences and their similarities alike.
> ...


No they weren't coming for us to train. They were looking for another/better bird dog. We would invite them to come train. It was an opportunity for a direct comparison. We sold a dog in most cases but sometimes we got a suprise and they brought a very impressive dog. Nobody I know that works pointing dogs believes that a dogs nose is taught. The nose of a birddog becomes obvious in a 6 month old pup if not on thier first pigeon. You said...or at least I thought I understood you to say that all dogs have noses like they have 4 legs. My experience with pointing dogs tells me that good noses are hereditary.....and very important. Not trying to mess with you but you seemed to dismiss the "my dog has a good nose" statement. 

As far as American or British...I could care less.


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> 3) Exactly at what generation does a Lab born in North America become no longer a "British" Lab?


Love question three. 

My kennel/home is a mix of UK, US and Australian "working" labradors.


----------



## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

Pete said:


> So are saying that if I bought a pointing dog and all it did was sleep on the couch for a couple of years,,,,then one day I wanted to go hunting ,,, and that I could take this dog out and he would clean up the field for me.
> 
> Yes...it's the dogs natural instinct. You don't train them to point....only to hold the point. I can show you a 3 month old puppy with only basic obedience training on his fist bird that will slam it at 30 to 40 feet. I can then take an older meat dog with less nose/point that's been hunted for years and he will almost run over the same bird. The second dog is still a great birddog with lots of drive. He just has less nose.
> 
> Instead of starting a new thread I'll just drop it. It's pretty obvious you haven't seen a bird dog with an exceptional nose.


----------



## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Goosetree said:


> Instead of starting a new thread I'll just drop it. It's pretty obvious you haven't seen a bird dog with an exceptional nose.


Haha. So much for treading lightly, eh?


----------



## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

This semms like a good time to blug in Thier owners as the "root complaint against british labs?"


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

rmilner said:


> I am curious.
> 
> In the US:
> There are approximately 1 million waterfowlers with retrievers
> ...


If numbers are the criteria (which you insinuate), it is none of the above, since the vast majority of Lab owners have their dogs as pets, nothing more and buy their dogs from backyard breeders. And to take your comments to their logical conclusion, we should then use the lap dogs as the foundation from which we choose our field Labs because they represent "mainstream field Lab owners". How absurd the logic. But you and I no this is not how it works or should be, either in North America or the UK (or the rest of the world).

Instead we (the entire world through its various breed clubs) have traditionally (& rightly so I think) looked to those dogs titled in field work from which to choose our best breeding stock. We have done so because these dogs have proven their abilities in the field, in competitions against all comers - and have proven themselves fit, up to the tasks, even superior among competitors. These titled dogs have proven themselves worthy of the breeding recognition they receive, by demonstrating superior marking abilities, intelligence, tractability, etc that have resulted in the titles obtained. This is true whether in North Amerca or in the UK (or among any grouping of dogs nationally) where there are std trials for receiving titles which are recognized by the national breed clubs.

In contrast, these advertised British "gentleman's hunting dogs" are generations removed from such titled dogs in most cases, many have no health clearances and have no titles recognized by the various national breed clubs. I am by no means demeaning any dogs regardless of their heritage where nat'l breed club titles & clearances are offered as proof, but we are asked, as the gullible public, instead to rely upon advertising, claiming "calm demeanor", "best suited for hunting" instead of field titles as awarded by the various national breed clubs in the case of these "British dogs with calm demeanor, best suited for the gentleman hunter". I don't think so....


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Mr Milner,

In another post, years ago?, you mentioned natural puppy "carrying". Can I take this opportunity to ask, is this a criteria you still hold great value in testing puppies?


----------



## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> A country which drinks Miller Lite in industrial quantities has nothing to tell civilised nations about beer.Eug


*Holds head in shame*

But that's why I make my own craft beer (and use alot of British/Belgian ale yeast). 

In the homebrew world we call em BMC'ers.....for Bud, Miller and Coors drinkers...as in "this is a recipe that even your BMC friends will like". lol


----------



## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I think it was Gene Hill who said, 'The proper place for a gentleman's retriever is on the front seat of his Jaguar.' ;-)

I attended a working test for retrievers in north Yorkshire years ago and was VERY favorably impressed with the dogs, esp. those of one breeder who was there and kindly shared his lunch with me. They were nicely built, trim and on the small side of medium by North American standards. More athletic than the Labradors I saw in Trondehiem, Norway earlier that summer. Both kinds were calm, well-behaved, friendly Labs.

The most impressive thing I saw that day was when a dog on a retrieve flushed a rabbit and was stopped from chasing it and continued on the retrieve. (I was told they train in rabbit pens, so this was no big deal...)

The work sought from the group of Yorkshire dogs was completely unlike anything I would expect in any of the kinds of hunting I do, so I really didn't have any impression of how the dogs would work for me. (I'm told some non-gentlemen do "rough shooting" something like what we call upland hunting, but that wasn't being tested.) As to the tests themselves, they seemed un-suited to North American style hunting, either upland or waterfowl. (Though I have heard of N. Americans who hunt pheasants with a retriever at heel. Something I wouldn't consider.)

I honestly could not understand how the judge was differentiating between the work of the dogs and my brief discussion with him didn't reveal much that I could understand.

So my impression was: We could learn a lot about having a more relaxed testing program - HT's & FT's here work everyone 10 times harder... The people were very nice and looking for calm quiet work of a kind I could not apply in mid-west hunting. But they were doing it with style. 

I got a LOT of ribbing about repeater shotguns, but could have grossed them out even worse if I had a Burnsie Green Monster or Dalassee Blue Meanie - they seemed to consider the quiet of the little "spaniel whistles" an important part of the game. (Of course, a proper gentleman has a matched pair of Purdys or Holland & Hollands... and "man" to load and carry them. More than a year's income for me without the "man"... And I shoot my autoloaders better than my double guns, too...)

I came away with a fond memory of something I don't feel transfers directly for me.

==

As to the "English" imports. I have seen good and bad and really don't have a uniform impression of them as a group. Some N. Amer. hunters truly would benefit from a low-key dog, but I have had two from FT breeding that would fit that bill and do North American style hunting very well:

MHR-UH/HRCH Shohola Daisy
&
http://www.math.uiowa.edu/~stroyan/Shohola/tess.htm

Their mom, Nell,

http://www.math.uiowa.edu/~stroyan/Shohola/nell.htm

was a 63 pound fire-breathing dragon - but she would find birds 10 other dogs couldn't. Some days it would be nice to go with Tess or Jessie when you didn't want to deal with Nellie's impatience. Daisy was the perfect in-between, calm, affectionate, cooperative, but with more energy than Tess. (Well, unless there were Snow geese - she LOVED stinky Snows... and had to pile everyone's up at her blind... and eat one if you weren't looking...)

Some of the British importers seem to be doing a careful job - with health clearances and working background. But one of the nicest of those I've known was too laid-back in middle-age for my taste in working dogs.

The "hype" of the Am/Brit breeders does have some basis in fact. Well-built, well-mannered dogs are desirable and some folks won't want the energy of a dog like Pearl aka "Trumarc's Coyote" shown in my avatar (but, boy, can she phind feasants...) Some big wolfy-looking dogs with curly tails might not fit your plan - but they might bring home the blue if that's your plan, too.

So decide what YOU want. Talk to all the breeders. (I find some of the FT lines suite my plans very well.)

Caveat Emptor.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I own dogs to compete in AKC Retriever FT's so that lineage is what I look for when chosing my pups.

Were I a hunter that would not necessarily be the case, and when I hunted upland on a regular basis it it was not even a Lab. 

Just like with shotguns, I owned more than one... of guns, dogs, and Breeds. 

One size does not fit all regards.

john


----------



## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Keith Stroyan said:


> (Of course, a proper gentleman has a matched pair of Purdys or Holland & Hollands... and "man" to load and carry them.


Back when I was in undergrad, there was a local bazillionaire whose trophy wife fancied herself a Scottish baroness. They brought over a ghillie (who ended up doing time when the FWS found a pit with dead birds of prey, neighborhood dogs and cats in it), a bunch of British dogs (and handlers) and would have driven pheasant hunts for all their friends. Through a connection, I got a job on these hunts as a loader. It was a great gig. They outfitted me in Barbour and I would stand next to some celebrity that had come in for this and hand them a loaded Purdey and take their empty and reload it. For this I got $50 per shoot (not bad for a college student in the early 80s) and three pheasant. It was a blast.

The dogs were impressive. Incredibly steady--as you would expect when they are trained to sit there while hundreds of birds land at their feet. If those movie stars could shoot worth a darn, you wouldn't even need dogs, the beaters could pick the birds up. However, they couldn't shoot so the dogs had to run down a lot of cripples. Definitely not a typical day in the field in the US, though.


----------



## Oscar Chavez (Mar 1, 2003)

I think dogs are the result of how they are selected. If they are true to their blood, and only a few are, you can expect to see according to the test they come from. I recommend you see the English competitions , and you'll see the type of dog you can expect. Same with American powers.

Both the top dogs in his own.


----------



## duckwater (Apr 23, 2010)

Wow, i think you should get the dog you want, becouse you deserve to have what you want.


----------



## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

duckwater said:


> Wow, i think you should get the dog you want, becouse you deserve to have what you want.


I agree, but why disparage the dog you didn't want/get?


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Aussie said:


> Mr Milner,
> 
> In another post, years ago?, you mentioned natural puppy "carrying". Can I take this opportunity to ask, is this a criteria you still hold great value in testing puppies?


Aussie,
I do value seeing puppies carry objects. Mine seem to favor sticks, aluminum cans and plastic drink bottles. I think it is a good indication of propensity to deliver to hand. 

These days, I don't believe much in the validity of any puppy test. I have been fooled too many times over the years. I go with testing the parents instead of the puppies.


----------



## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

TN_LAB said:


> I've seen a lot of British Lab web pages that describe American Labs with terms like "amped" up and "high strung" Even saw one using the term "mechanical"


In the 80's Bill Tarrant wrote "The Mechanical Gundog" article in Field & Stream that is often credited as the impetus for beginning the hunt test movement. Many hunters realized that American style field trials required a dog with more intensity than they wanted to deal with so they embraced the idea of a hunt test program that would measure and promote the type of dog they wanted to hunt with. 

Unfortunately, the hunt tests evolved (in my opinion) into simply 2nd rate field trials, evaluating the same attributes just at shorter distances and while dressed in camo. The marketing of the British Lab is the argument that the British field trials measure and reward attributes that are more relevant to the hunter than the American version. 

There is however plenty of room for skepticism whether what is being marketed is what is being sold.


----------



## pixel shooter (Mar 6, 2010)

REALLY at the end of the day, does it matter how it is marketed 
This is a Ford, Chevy, import discussion. The customer wants what the customer wants, what ever spin you want on it, goes down to doing your own due diligence and buying what you want, after all its your hard earned money. Agree with Pete, deceptive on both sides. Im tired of hearing the bickering in threads like this, this forum offers soooooooooo much more, we have enough soaps in our life. Im speaking from one who owns both, and always will, both are a different ride, but like anything in life, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.


----------



## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Wow. I just got back to a computer after being out of town for several days, and am surprised to see what’s blown up on here since I’ve been gone.

As I said in my original post, I HONESTLY did not intend to start anything like this. I had what I thought was a simple question that was "safe," even for the obviosuly controversial subject matter.

I thank all those who were kind enough to politely provide a constructive answer. You’ve given me the information I was looking for.

Ryan


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

pixel shooter said:


> REALLY at the end of the day, does it matter how it is marketed


Seriously?

Have you never heard the adage "ridicule the man's wife, ridicule the man's ride, ridicule the man, but better leave the man's dog alone"?

Say whatever you want about how great your dogs are. I'll applaud your pride and maybe share a little bit in the same. But DON'T you dare make up bull$#!t lies about my dog!

"Dog-men" and "dog-women" understand. My dog gives me unconditional love, the very least I can do is have its back against lies and false attacks.


----------



## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

My thoughts on “British Labs” are quite simple. In the UK field trails, the water tests required of the dogs appear to be similar to those in the beginning levels here in the US; (informal stakes, Junior etc.).
To the extent that this is true, the selective breeding, over many generations, which yielded the best FT stock in the UK, may produce dogs that are outstanding water dogs, or it may not, because their standard for selecting the “best” breeding stock places little emphasis on that attribute.

I think the “serious” waterfowl hunters in the US are better served by a gene pool whose best of the best have demonstrated attributes and abilities suited to their type of hunting.

There are always exceptions and anecdotal evidence that contradict this, and extremes exhibited by individual dogs. I’m just addressing the standards for selective breeding in both countries, and resulting probabilities as an outcome.


----------



## pixel shooter (Mar 6, 2010)

Seriously, the last time I checked, they weren't talking about your dogs. You must be a die hard Chevy owner 



AmiableLabs said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Have you never heard the adage "ridicule the man's wife, ridicule the man's ride, ridicule the man, but better leave the man's dog alone"?
> 
> ...


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

pixel shooter said:


> Seriously, the last time I checked, they weren't talking about your dogs. You must be a die hard Chevy owner


Then you don't look at the "British" Lab websites & ads.


----------



## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Man, I thought this thread had died...


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Obabikon said:


> Wow. I just got back to a computer after being out of town for several days, and am surprised to see what’s blown up on here since I’ve been gone.
> 
> As I said in my original post, I HONESTLY did not intend to start anything like this. I had what I thought was a simple question that was "safe," even for the obviosuly controversial subject matter.
> 
> ...


Actually, your very first entry in this thread was that this thread was doomed to stir the pot, but that was not your intent.

Whether you intended it or not, you did forecast it. ;-)



> 01-20-2011, 09:52 AM #*1* Obabikon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## pixel shooter (Mar 6, 2010)

I was talking about his personal dogs, not the breed 



Granddaddy said:


> Then you don't look at the "British" Lab websites & ads.


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

pixel shooter said:


> I was talking about his personal dogs, not the breed


You still don't get it.

The British-bred Lab breeders attack all American-bred Labs as inferior. My Labs are American-bred. Therefore, they are attacking my dogs.

There it is in a gloriously logical syllogism that would make old Aristotle himself proud.

I can't make it any simpler than that.


----------



## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

AmiableLabs said:


> You still don't get it.
> 
> The British-bred Lab breeders attack all American-bred Labs as inferior. My Labs are American-bred. Therefore, they are attacking my dogs.
> 
> ...


If you're from Alberta, you're an idiot. There, I didn't say anything about YOU specifically, did I?


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

rmilner said:


> Aussie,
> I do value seeing puppies carry objects. Mine seem to favor sticks, aluminum cans and plastic drink bottles. I think it is a good indication of propensity to deliver to hand.
> 
> These days, I don't believe much in the validity of any puppy test. I have been fooled too many times over the years. I go with testing the parents instead of the puppies.


Thankyou. Totally agree with validity of puppy tests. As long as pups are not overly timid?


----------

