# "New Blood" in the Retriever Game?



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

There seems to have been a decline in the numbers of people competing (or participating) in most of the Retriever events. (I read some of the numbers in a recent edition of RO.) Makes me ask 2 questions:

1. Is there a similar decline in other sporting/hunting dog events? (Pointers, Spaniels, Hounds, etc.)
2. Is there a similar decline in other non-sporting/hunting dog events?

If the answer is Yes/Yes... I wonder if the economy is a factor. If the answer is Yes/No (i.e., Dock Diving, Rally-O, Fly-ball, Obedience etc. are thriving and growing) then that raises two other questions...

1) Is there some growing social disinterest in or distaste for all things hunting? 
2) Is there something about "The Game" (Specifically, the retriever game) that is making it tougher for new blood to enter? 

What do you all think? (Myself... I think it's always been intimidating, time-consuming and expensive to begin running your own retriever. It really does take a village and a small fortune. That's always been true and I don't think it's gotten any worse since I began.)


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

it's cuz they can't get into master tests


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

As someone new to the game, I can say that there is a time/money correlation that can't be met by many people. If a dollar value were assigned to a training hour, or vice versa, it can be treated as a single variable. I submit most people do not have the required amount of time/money combination to dedicate to the sport. I am taking one dog through transition right now. I am not planning on getting another for a few years yet. This is not because I wouldn't love to have half a dozen hot running AFC's. I just don't have the requisite time/money combination to do so with two young kids and a career.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

That has been a mantra the 20+ years I've been involved in this sport. With the average Open growing from 50-60 dogs when I started to 80 now and similar growth in the Am, I wish it were true.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Actually I just read that HT numbers increased by 4+% over the past ? years. FT are down 5%. I will see if I can find it, but seems like a push to me.


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## NCShooter (Dec 6, 2012)

As a "newbie" I can offer an opinion. I have a three year old BLM with his JH, SH, HR, and two finished passes. I have ran everything to this point myself. My opinion is that the hunt test game is not geared for single dog owners. HRC is slightly better in that Sat and Sun are separate tests and only 30 dogs per finished flight. 
I cannot make myself run a 90 dog master test with one dog. Waiting around for a day (or longer) to run the next series is agony. (Patience is not my strongest trait.)
The Friday starts only add to the problems for the owner/handler. Additional night of lodging, food, etc. Cost is definitely a factor to whichever dog game you play. My dog went on a pros truck yesterday to run master. It is cheaper for him to run my dog than me to travel, and he is a better handler than I am. Most pros run more tests in a weekend than I have ever ran.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

NCShooter said:


> As a "newbie" I can offer an opinion. I have a three year old BLM with his JH, SH, HR, and two finished passes. I have ran everything to this point myself. My opinion is that the hunt test game is not geared for single dog owners. HRC is slightly better in that Sat and Sun are separate tests and only 30 dogs per finished flight.
> I cannot make myself run a 90 dog master test with one dog. Waiting around for a day (or longer) to run the next series is agony. (Patience is not my strongest trait.)
> The Friday starts only add to the problems for the owner/handler. Additional night of lodging, food, etc. Cost is definitely a factor to whichever dog game you play. My dog went on a pros truck yesterday to run master. It is cheaper for him to run my dog than me to travel, and he is a better handler than I am. Most pros run more tests in a weekend than I have ever ran.


To me, this is dead on!
Hard to sit still unless I'm waiting on some green heads!


JMO


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> That has been a mantra the 20+ years I've been involved in this sport. With the average Open growing from 50-60 dogs when I started to 80 now and similar growth in the Am, I wish it were true.


John I disagree with your numbers, perhaps this was true 6-8 years ago but you are in an area that has become concentrated in the summer as Texas and Florida/Georgia in the winter/spring. Once everyone disperses a very different picture emerges. Additionally look at the number and age of the handlers, fewer and older and it is not changing in the foreseeable future.


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## Blue Tick (Aug 17, 2013)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> As someone new to the game, I can say that there is a time/money correlation that can't be met by many people. If a dollar value were assigned to a training hour, or vice versa, it can be treated as a single variable. I submit most people do not have the required amount of time/money combination to dedicate to the sport. I am taking one dog through transition right now. I am not planning on getting another for a few years yet. This is not because I wouldn't love to have half a dozen hot running AFC's. I just don't have the requisite time/money combination to do so with two young kids and a career.





NCShooter said:


> As a "newbie" I can offer an opinion. I have a three year old BLM with his JH, SH, HR, and two finished passes. I have ran everything to this point myself. My opinion is that the hunt test game is not geared for single dog owners. HRC is slightly better in that Sat and Sun are separate tests and only 30 dogs per finished flight.
> I cannot make myself run a 90 dog master test with one dog. Waiting around for a day (or longer) to run the next series is agony. (Patience is not my strongest trait.)
> The Friday starts only add to the problems for the owner/handler. Additional night of lodging, food, etc. Cost is definitely a factor to whichever dog game you play. My dog went on a pros truck yesterday to run master. It is cheaper for him to run my dog than me to travel, and he is a better handler than I am. Most pros run more tests in a weekend than I have ever ran.


I agree with both of these. I see HRC as being a bigger help to me, as I feel it's more geared for the "hunter". We went to an AKC test this past weekend with my dog and the trainer that is helping me with my dog. We ran Jr dogs through in about 30 minutes and then sat forever waiting on the Masters series to run. I only run one dog myself and money and time to me is a big factor.


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

I think the field trial game has been basically the same for the past 25yrs. However the hunt test game has changed things greatly. It started out as a game most folks could play and was affordable.The quest for a master dog going to the master nat.caused a great many people to hire pros(good for the pros) bad for the family that was trying to have fun on the weekends. The cost of weekends rose to the point where they bypass jr. and sr. and go straight to masters. Not only did the hunt test game change the competitive aspect but it changed the breeding end of the game as well.Not many years ago you could buy a well bred dog for 5-600 dollars really well bred for a thousand.Now two Srs. bred will cost you a thousand and NFCbred will cost you 2500-3000. I think the games will continue to do well just a new breed that can afford them will be out there. They will straighten out the master problems eventually. Each Hunt test will probably have 4 flights of masters and the price will have to go up to cover costs and then people will be bitching about price instead of not being able to get in! Is any body really still having fun? Guy


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I am just guessing but would think the transition from JH/SH handlers to MH would be low not only for economic reasons but time and training grounds. 30 something's life is full of work, kids and other life issues let alone spending the time needed to trains MH or FT dog.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

EdA said:


> John I disagree with your numbers, perhaps this was true 6-8 years ago but you are in an area that has become concentrated in the summer as Texas and Florida/Georgia in the winter/spring. Once everyone disperses a very different picture emerges. Additionally look at the number and age of the handlers, fewer and older and it is not changing in the foreseeable future.


I guess my view point is skewed by the huge growth of amateurs in our area, but since I've been involved the program hasn't changed. We train and run trials in Montana-Idaho-Eastern Washington and Wyoming from late March to early October, then you either take the winter off, send your dog south to Texas or California with a pro or, if you are retired go south yourself. Once south you'll likely find yourself in another concentrated area with similarly high entry numbers. The reality is the field trial game is very expensive and it calls for huge sacrifices that eliminate most younger, working families. It was that way when I started, at 44 I was one of the few young guys. It's that way now, you'll find the occasional 40something here and there, but for the most part it's an older crowd. I really don't know what will happen we all us older folks get too old to run anymore. I do believe the sport keeps older folk healthier and more active than they would otherwise be.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> It was that way when I started, at 44 I was one of the few young guys.


When I started the young crowd was in their late 20s and 30s, now the young crowd is in their late 40s and 50s.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Dr A is correct about the age logistics...the things that affect the FT game are:

1. the loss of disposable discretionary income

2. access to a variety of training areas

3. success rate vs amount of time/money spent, aka ROI

with many people that come to the sport there comes a time after their initial 6-7 year run when they must decide if they have the will and determination to reload the truck with fresh new talent and campaign another dog. repeating the success with subsequent dog(s) gets tougher for some due to a myriad of factors, easier for others...

Add in that peoples lives change, families come along,careers change, people relocate..and people become bored, jaded, or disgruntled with what was once their passion..


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## Jared McComis (Aug 12, 2013)

I am new into the dog world at the mid level. I am interested in taking it further into the competitions but there are many hurdles. The largest ones already being brought up in this thread are time and money. A couple of other issues that I have seen can be related to the status quo of baseball or raising cattle. MLB faces a huge hurdle of getting younger fans based on the speed of play. My generation, early 30's, isn't willing to devote 3-4 hours a night regularly to attend games or watch them on tv. Doesn't mean we don't enjoy the game or want to be involved but it does keep most from committing significant dollars to that event. With that being said, there are plenty of factors that keep younger families from being able to commit an entire weekend to run competition dogs especially if you only have 1 dog. Kids are a huge factor in being able to give up a complete day much less a weekend. So lets just say "Speed of Play" is an issue for young families. 

Secondly, everyone has an opinion in the dog world whether it's about training, pedigree's, trainer's or their approach. There are so many ways in which this game can be played it is easy to get lost or started down a direction which is hard to acclimate to your time and budget. This makes it complicated to buy dogs because it seems to be more of an interview process than a simple purchase. Especially if you are looking for a higher end pup or dog. I understand why the seller's want to place their dogs in specific homes but it can and does eliminate people from getting involved at a level they may be on the fence about. 

Overall it seems that the people who do make the jump really enjoy the games. These are nothing more than my thoughts on what keeps people from getting involved.


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## Loran Marmes (JR) (Jan 19, 2013)

Im a newbie and im also young (27) i am the youngest ive seen by quite a long shot. It is very hard to get started and even much harder to keep going. I have had some little success this year but i have been lucky to have tons of help from several people who i consider good friends now. The money aspect is scary because i know it takes a lot to play. I only run one dog as do many so its tuff running against people with numerous dogs and dogs that are pro trained. It pushes me to train harder and want to learn and be better but makes it very difficult and frustrating. Trying to maintain the resources to train to such a high level is difficult and playing catch up in the spring from the dogs coming back from down south. I wish there were more younger people to keep the game up and going.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I think the up coming generation (20 somethings and millennials) have huge problems. I did not face crushing debt upon graduation from college and trouble finding a job. There is hope that our economy can turn around and the middle class can recover. Until then, it may be up to the Geritol generation (retired folks like me) to keep the dog sports going. 

How can we make the minor stakes more accessible and satisfying to younger people and amateurs. IOW, how can we make a weekend deliver more bang for their buck? Could a club, for instance, offer a handlers clinic sometime during the same weekend. Can we make the minor stakes back to back so it gives the newbies two chances to qualify.

The Master's level has issues they are going to have to figure out. But maybe some attention and energy should be put on the entry level events.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I agree with Bon and Ed with one additional comment. In the FT game the rewards dont come often and the "younger" folks are used to instant gratification. 3-4 years + for a consistent running AA dog. I also think the golden age of the dog games has passed by 20 years or more, maybe 30. 

For myself with owning 2 dogs one of which may or may not make new yews due to cancer and the other dog is right at 10. I am building a house and my business is expanding at a rate that I see no puppy in my future. I will likely be 5 plus years before I am playing in the AA stakes again.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I think there's a particular sort of blessing to be able to mark the phases in your life by the dogs that have been part of it.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

I agree with Bon.

I was rummaging through some old trial premiums recently and noticed that the handlers at the 2004 Lake Champlain Retriever Club Field Trial were virtually the same as the 2014 edition. Other than the dogs, the catalogs were nearly interchangeable! When I first started out there were usually between 15 to 20 peripheral participants, "average joe's" like myself, along with the standard cast of regulars. These days, that number appears to be half as many. 

I think that the northeast has suffered an enormous loss of trial/test grounds. I worry about the long-term continuation of those grounds that remain, either by loss of interest, or the mortality, of the property owners. 

I've been training lately with a middle-aged guy who is relatively new to the sport and has two young, well-bred and well trained labs. He's a Hunt Test person and his dogs have quickly attained their Junior and Senior titles. They're both capable of running Master tests but he is put-off and intimidated by the process of signing up for tests with sixty dog limits that are filled within minutes of opening. He probably won't pursue his dog's titles, and I found that very disheartening. Somehow, either by the AKC or the advent of the Master National, the present circumstances will ultimately lead to the end, or substantial diminution, of the sport.

Oh yeah, and fewer and fewer of them hunt.


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

EdA said:


> When I started the young crowd was in their late 20s and 30s, now the young crowd is in their late 40s and 50s.


The 40's and 50's were still keeping score at sporting events. The 20's and 30's came up though the beginning of the run rule and not keeping score. Go figure.


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## trapperwalt (Jun 1, 2014)

I ran my pup this year in Junior tests and recieved her junior title at 9 months old. I'm probably going to run senior next year and then be done with hunt tests. Factors being time, money, and intimidation. I only run the 1 dog and dont have time to sit on my truck tailgate for 2 days on a summer weekend when I only get 1 weekend off a month. As far as money goes the entry fee is really not that big of a deal but I think the $ 75 plus entry fee's are a little steep for the non pro who is paying his own way. This does not include the cost of gas, and lodging. The 3rd factor is intimidation, A lot of the pro trainers I have run into seem to be kind of rude and unwilling to provide any tips for these events. I feel looked down on because I'm a novice running my own dog. Even if I wanted to run master I probably wouldnt be able to sign up due to the fast closing of events. These are my own opinions about how th HT game is pushing people away.


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## iluvducks (Jun 30, 2012)

The field trial game is dominated by the wealthy and the pros. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is. I enjoyed the hunt tests because I'm a gun dog fan. The economy has a lot to do with it also. This is an expensive hobby to have.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

in the FT game the lone amateur is seen by the pro as either competition or a possible client,if you appear to be neither they will overlook you and seem somewhat aloof.....unless of course you are female..in which case you may have to hire a bodyguard or flash a shiny rock on your finger,which has also been known to be as good as a Kenai streamer during the salmon run...


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

1tulip said:


> How can we make the minor stakes more accessible and satisfying to younger people and amateurs.


The minor stakes are very accessible to younger people and amateurs--perhaps not being high point derby dog, but the derby and Q are very accessible to anyone of any age. As far as satisfying, that is a different question. 

I don't think you can make it satisfying to certain folks. If you need to win all the time or your ego is somehow tied up in your dog's performance, you are not going to be happy--even in the minor stakes, unless you are prepared to spend a lot of time and money, wash out dogs, etc.

However if you simply like to train your dogs, run events that will challenge them, hang out with nice people and you are able to decouple your ego from the ribbons and set your own standards for success or progress, all stakes are quite enjoyable. For folks like me, FTs are better than HTs because you don't have to worry about training on water and you almost always can get home at a reasonable hour on Sunday--or even Saturday.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

i will echo what Penn said about the minor stakes, they are VERY accessible, but many dont have the patience or see the benefit of them and want to go up against the "players" in the AA stakes when neither they or their dogs are ready for the big dance, so they get discouraged and fade away from the game...


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> For folks like me, FTs are better than HTs because you don't have to worry about training on water and you almost always can get home at a reasonable hour on Sunday--or even Saturday.


hehehe....now you will have them running around saying I'm going to try field trials because you don't have to train on water.......


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

DoubleHaul said:


> The minor stakes are very accessible to younger people and amateurs--perhaps not being high point derby dog, but the derby and Q are very accessible to anyone of any age. As far as satisfying, that is a different question.
> 
> I don't think you can make it satisfying to certain folks. If you need to win all the time or your ego is somehow tied up in your dog's performance, you are not going to be happy--even in the minor stakes, unless you are prepared to spend a lot of time and money, wash out dogs, etc.
> 
> However if you simply like to train your dogs, run events that will challenge them, hang out with nice people and you are able to decouple your ego from the ribbons and set your own standards for success or progress, all stakes are quite enjoyable. For folks like me, FTs are better than HTs because you don't have to worry about training on water and you almost always can get home at a reasonable hour on Sunday--or even Saturday.


Ha Ha Ha!!


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Jared McComis said:


> I am new into the dog world at the mid level. I am interested in taking it further into the competitions but there are many hurdles. The largest ones already being brought up in this thread are time and money. A couple of other issues that I have seen can be related to the status quo of baseball or raising cattle. MLB faces a huge hurdle of getting younger fans based on the speed of play. My generation, early 30's, isn't willing to devote 3-4 hours a night regularly to attend games or watch them on tv. Doesn't mean we don't enjoy the game or want to be involved but it does keep most from committing significant dollars to that event. With that being said, there are plenty of factors that keep younger families from being able to commit an entire weekend to run competition dogs especially if you only have 1 dog. Kids are a huge factor in being able to give up a complete day much less a weekend. So lets just say "Speed of Play" is an issue for young families.


This is intriguing. How can "we" keep potential new blood in the retriever games? I immediately thought about driving several hours staying in a hotel and having a dog break on the 1st bird and having a horrible drive home or scratching the next day and just going home. How can this person stay engaged in HT/FT? 

Why not set-up a mock test/trial for those dogs that are out of contention somewhere on the grounds? It doesn't take a judge, it shouldn't take many birds or bumpers can be used. The handler gets some bang for their buck and hopefully the dog/handler can learn something. It would require some additional equipment and some more volunteers (already in short supply), but it could really help with recruitment and retainment of new blood. Then these people might stay around the banquet/raffle in the evening too, or join the club, or come back to your test next time. 

You would have to verify that dog is for sure out of contention to allow it to run (judges sign a paper when dog is picked up or handled a slip or something) before it could run the mock test (no training on the grounds). 

I understand this would probably be a Saturday only thing as most people who fail a Sunday test would probably just go home.

Food for thought.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Peter Balzer said:


> This is intriguing. How can "we" keep potential new blood in the retriever games? I immediately thought about driving several hours staying in a hotel and having a dog break on the 1st bird and having a horrible drive home or scratching the next day and just going home. How can this person stay engaged in HT/FT?
> 
> Why not set-up a mock test/trial for those dogs that are out of contention somewhere on the grounds? It doesn't take a judge, it shouldn't take many birds or bumpers can be used. The handler gets some bang for their buck and hopefully the dog/handler can learn something. It would require some additional equipment and some more volunteers (already in short supply), but it could really help with recruitment and retainment of new blood. Then these people might stay around the banquet/raffle in the evening too, or join the club, or come back to your test next time.
> 
> ...



Just about all if not all of the HT and FT venues have rules that prohibit any kind of "training" on the trial grounds. Making the logistics even more difficult for clubs to pull off a test isn't the way to go. Not everyone gets a trophy. Most clubs already have training days. If your dog breaks on the first series, put them up and volunteer to throw birds for a few hours, you'll learn more doing that a few times than you could ever imagine.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I am a newbie to the sport of FT. I guess I have not experienced what a lot of people are saying. I did not spend a lot of money for my dog, I do not have my dog on a pro's truck, I do day train occasionally with a pro and I do talk to a lot of pros who have all seemed friendly and civil to me. I also had a finalist in the 2014 NARC, so have hope, it can be done by the non-wealthy, not -influential newbies that come into the sport.


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## Stonewall (Sep 24, 2014)

Hi
i left the hunt test game because
1) pros in hunt test game. I got into this for a hobby, not to take a back seat to someone who enters 10 or more dogs at a test.
2) tests that are in know way reasonable hunting distance set ups.
3) unreasonable decisions by some judges. Ex. Dog fall off water stand, due to stand not being stable. Dog gets right back on stand. Judge rules it a break.
4)cost of travel, entry's, missed work(which is a huge loss in my case).

the best way to get people back in this sport is to get rid of the pros, make it a family type event. People find out the cost of a pro and see the preferential treatment they get, there out of there.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Peter Balzer said:


> Why not set-up a mock test/trial for those dogs that are out of contention somewhere on the grounds? It doesn't take a judge, it shouldn't take many birds or bumpers can be used. The handler gets some bang for their buck and hopefully the dog/handler can learn something. It would require some additional equipment and some more volunteers (already in short supply), but it could really help with recruitment and retainment of new blood. Then these people might stay around the banquet/raffle in the evening too, or join the club, or come back to your test next time.


I like the idea... As far as the rule about training on the grounds, the committee designates where "the grounds" are and where they aren't. If the people using the mock test are monitored and not returning to run their dogs for real... the purpose of the rule is honored.

There could be some education provided at the mock test. 1) Why the test is set up the way it is, i.e., what skill set is the judge testing and assessing in the dog-handler duo. 2) How the judges score the dogs. 3) Suggestions for the newbie on how to train for those skills 4) Answer questions that arise. 5) Provide membership info and applications and sell raffle tickets. 

The participants can be utilized to run wingers. It should only take one or two salty (experienced, knowledgeable and chatty-friendly ) dog folks to serve as teachers.

The problem is... when do you do it? If I'm running Junior or Senior and bomb out late in the day, I may miss the opportunity to run the mock test. How could you do it logistically.


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## scothuffman (Nov 14, 2012)

I know the issue for me running test are the fact that the tests are set up in the winter out here in the desert and that is hunting season. I have a dog to hunt first and then run tests.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Stonewall said:


> Hi
> i left the hunt test game because
> 1) pros in hunt test game. I got into this for a hobby, not to take a back seat to someone who enters 10 or more dogs at a test.
> 2) tests that are in know way reasonable hunting distance set ups.
> ...


Long time ago, Western NY RC used to run frequent AKC Sanctioned Trials. This was before HT's evolved. Obviously there were not points, so no pro's. But the rules and everything were just like in the Licensed trials. It was how I got started. I had a back-yard bred lab who I'd trained using Richard Wolter's Water Dog, who had never seen a feathers... but low and behold, we took a green (JAM or "honorable mention") in the Derby. That was all it took to start the addiction. That and the fact that all the club members were friendly and fun. That dog finally became Qualified All Age so she did pretty darn well considering.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Jared McComis said:


> I am new into the dog world at the mid level. I am interested in taking it further into the competitions but there are many hurdles. The largest ones already being brought up in this thread are time and money. A couple of other issues that I have seen can be related to the status quo of baseball or raising cattle. MLB faces a huge hurdle of getting younger fans based on the speed of play. My generation, early 30's, isn't willing to devote 3-4 hours a night regularly to attend games or watch them on tv. Doesn't mean we don't enjoy the game or want to be involved but it does keep most from committing significant dollars to that event. With that being said, there are plenty of factors that keep younger families from being able to commit an entire weekend to run competition dogs especially if you only have 1 dog. Kids are a huge factor in being able to give up a complete day much less a weekend. So lets just say "Speed of Play" is an issue for young families.
> 
> Secondly, everyone has an opinion in the dog world whether it's about training, pedigree's, trainer's or their approach. There are so many ways in which this game can be played it is easy to get lost or started down a direction which is hard to acclimate to your time and budget. This makes it complicated to buy dogs because it seems to be more of an interview process than a simple purchase. Especially if you are looking for a higher end pup or dog. I understand why the seller's want to place their dogs in specific homes but it can and does eliminate people from getting involved at a level they may be on the fence about.
> 
> Overall it seems that the people who do make the jump really enjoy the games. These are nothing more than my thoughts on what keeps people from getting involved.


 You made some good points.
Dog training is supposed to be fun. If we do it right, it releases stress or least it should be. There is nothing better than having a good training session at the end of the day and then plan for the next day at work or on break. 
When we feel that we are good enough to compete, and do compete, that in itself becomes a different stress…a good stress if you believe that. There are those around that will help you and at least reduce the butterflies (Do you remember the first time you drove a car?)
*As with the money thing*…you don’t need the best to start off with. You will understand that things will be needed and in time that will be acquired, but until then, you work within you budget. 

*Clubs* are great to belong because they have all of the equipment and experience to help you. 

Finally, WE do this stuff because it helps us cope with not getting in a rut of the mundane day where we go through the motions once we wake up.
In a way, dog trainings is like a vacation in your backyard or a field that you have discover and it is you and the dog and nothing else negative that enters our mind.
They say we live longer with dogs…I can believe.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Huh. Clubs are already stretched to the max to put on tests/trials. Now clubs should be asked to cater to noobs and entertain them at tests/trials so they don't get their feelings hurt ornget bored and will continue to participate? Sorry. I'm still of the opinion that if you want it badly enough, you work for it. If you don't want it that much, then probably HT/FT aren't a good fit. The game will survive, in some form, precisely because of the people who really want to run and work their butts off to train their dogs and put on tests, not because of those that need immediate gratification. Encouragement, sure, but I meet more nice and helpful people than not, so in my experience, I've just not seen real nastiness happening and I sure don't see pros snubbing people that are genuinely asking for help. Though I don't think anyone really wants to be asked how to FF or CC their dog or stop them from breaking, that sort of thing, when they are on their way to the holding blind getting ready to run. If anything, I've been invited to come train by many, or given tips on something dumb I did, or a hint on how the blind should maybe be run. Time and money, probably time more than anything, are what I would consider the biggest discouragement to people getting into HT/FT, until they've gone beyond the child-rearing, paying off the mortgage stage especially. I really think if you go in without a chip on your shoulder, without an entitled attitude, are willing to work and learn, you will get out of it what you put into it.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

1tulip said:


> There seems to have been a decline in the numbers of people competing (or participating) in most of the Retriever events. (I read some of the numbers in a recent edition of RO.) Makes me ask 2 questions:
> 
> 1. Is there a similar decline in other sporting/hunting dog events? (Pointers, Spaniels, Hounds, etc.)
> 2. Is there a similar decline in other non-sporting/hunting dog events?


At recent quarterly AKC meetings it is usually reported that AKC retriever events are holding fairly steady, other field events have down and the only Performance venue on the rise is Agility.
The problem with AKC's conclusion that retrievers are holding steady is that they only count entries without considering dogs/handler. 

Tim


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> When I started the young crowd was in their late 20s and 30s, now the young crowd is in their late 40s and 50s.


Hell Ed, I have underwear in it's twenties or thirties


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Rainmaker said:


> Huh. Clubs are already stretched to the max to put on tests/trials. Now clubs should be asked to cater to noobs so they don't get their feelings hurt and will continue to participate? Sorry. I'm still of the opinion that if you want it badly enough, you work for it. If you don't want it that much, then probably HT/FT aren't a good fit. The game will survive, in some form, precisely because of the people who really want to run and work their butts off to train their dogs and put on tests, not because of those that need immediate gratification. Encouragement, sure, but I meet more nice and helpful people than not, so in my experience, I've just not seen real nastiness happening and I sure don't see pros snubbing people that are genuinely asking for help. Though I don't think anyone really wants to be asked how to FF or CC their dog or stop them from breaking, that sort of thing, when they are on their way to the holding blind getting ready to run. If anything, I've been invited to come train by many, or given tips on something dumb I did, or a hint on how the blind should maybe be run. Time and money, probably time more than anything, are what I would consider the biggest discouragement to people getting into HT/FT, until they've gone beyond the child-rearing, paying off the mortgage stage especially. I really think if you go in without a chip on your shoulder, without an entitled attitude, are willing to work and learn, you will get out of it what you put into it.


Wow...You new folks out there who consider joining a club...not all clubs members are the what you see above. Clubs welcome new members and will tell you what is involved and what is needed in help and other stuff. Also understand that some folks hold the cards close to their heart. Please stay away from them if all possible. They are in it for only themselves only.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

For me HRC is achievable! Training alone much easier. Easier on the budget and you don't have to have a lot of land to train on. IMHO FT is expensive in terms of training. And someone mentioned you are two days on a weekend in a hotel. HRC you can go to one event on one day of the weekend. Other day you can do family things or yard work! I do have to say I love the challenge FT offers to myself and my dogs! You are always learning something new.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

BJGatley said:


> Wow...You new folks out there who consider joining a club...not all clubs members are the what you see above. Clubs welcome new members and will tell you what is involved and what is needed in help and other stuff. Also understand that some folks hold the cards close to their heart. Please stay away from them if all possible. They are in it for only themselves only.


I'm talking about the suggestions that clubs should put on a fun trial at the same time they're holding a test so that those who wipe out can keep playing, or otherwise entertain them. It just sounded a bit much to me. Clubs already offer a great deal, especially to noobs. I think tests are enough work on their own.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Rainmaker said:


> I'm talking about the suggestions that clubs should put on a fun trial at the same time they're holding a test so that those who wipe out can keep playing, or otherwise entertain them. It just sounded a bit much to me. Clubs already offer a great deal, especially to noobs. I think tests are enough work on their own.


I understand and I apologize for my comments to you.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

if you took a poll of the majority of the FT folks,the last thing they want to do is have a "consolation series", unless they have FTC responsibilities they are breaking camp, checking out of their lodging,and getting a head start to the next venue or the road home..Its kind of the nature of the game,when one is eliminated from a tournament, the last thing one wants to watch is an opponent that you think you should have beat..The drive home early is enough of a sobering thought and gives many a time to go over in their minds where their execution of the test did not measure up to their expectation...

as an old time pro used to tell us when we were younger "... there are no Do Over's in field trials.."


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I have gotten to the point where I truly enjoy my training day at a Pros much more than I do running a test!!

We rarely have successes on big dog set ups. but we attack them anyway, breaking them down into manageable pieces.

On the rare occasion we do have success,and Cherylon gives us a compliment, I know its sincere,and it means a ton to me..

I feel very fortunate to be in this position. If Flinch and I enter a test and have some success its just candy on the ice cream... But, I really enjoy training, and the group of people I train with, and the fact that I honestly can say they are my friends....

I think young people could do a LOT worse if they could find this same scenario...The last 3 yrs or so of dog training for me,, has been very gratifying,,even with very meager success... I wouldnt trade it for anything...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Yes, Gooser, that's a good point. Finding a good mentor and a good group are the way to go for anyone to learn the ropes and what it takes, build some really wonderful relationships. That's where you learn about factors, bird placement, how to work with your dog at the line, gain the confidence to enter and run. That's where anyone new to the sport needs to start. It just isn't easy to find.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Jerry S. said:


> Didn't Tim Springer just run Wager to a Q second? "If you want it badly enough you work for it." Please clarify.


I ran Wager to both of his Qual seconds. I just didnt take Tim's name off when I entered him. I spend my summers training. I send as many as I can afford south for the winter because I can't go myself. What's your point?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

One day, I was told to get a dog out of hole XXX! I brought that dog to the line and got the opportunity to run a blind with that dog. (with very close supervision)

The blind was a 350 yrddown the shore water blind, where the dog had to parallel the shore most all the way. The line to the bird was approx 5 feet off the shoreline..

I put my hand down, sent the dog, and watched that young dog swim 350 yrds staying 5 feet from shore,and not needing a whistle, until the last 15 or so yrds of the bird.

That dogs name is Holland!

Can you imagine (You cant) what a thrill that was for simple minded Gooser?? I will NEVER forget that day.

We are slowly getting to the point where I truly believe Gooser will own a dog that can do this same thing.. Its because of TRAINING with a very special group of people. guided by a wonderful lady to keep us all grounded..

I will test (and Judge) when we are ready..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Yes, Gooser, that's a good point. Finding a good mentor and a good group are the way to go for anyone to learn the ropes and what it takes, build some really wonderful relationships. That's where you learn about factors, bird placement, how to work with your dog at the line, gain the confidence to enter and run. That's where anyone new to the sport needs to start. It just isn't easy to find.



It *isnt *easy to find,, and when you do,, you are going to spend a LOT of time throwing, shooting birds for other peoples dogs..


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Rainmaker said:


> Yes, Gooser, that's a good point. Finding a good mentor and a good group are the way to go for anyone to learn the ropes and what it takes, build some really wonderful relationships. That's where you learn about factors, bird placement, how to work with your dog at the line, gain the confidence to enter and run. That's where anyone new to the sport needs to start.* It just isn't easy to find.*


It is easy to find believe it or not. All a newcomer needs to do is to find a club or group and see what is happening and then ask questions pertaining to him or her and their dog. I believe things happen for a reason.....


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> It *isnt *easy to find,, and when you do,, you are going to spend a LOT of time throwing, shooting birds for other peoples dogs..


For sure. It's work and some sacrifice, but that much more rewarding because of that.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

There is a HUGE difference between a group of people in a club training together, and a group of people training together guided by a legitimate pro.If you ask questions in a club atmosphere you will prolly get 50 different answers and opinions. A group that is grounded with the expertise of a Pro, keeps all standards and routines the same.. The same

Its very hard to find,,, at least out here!

After you may have learned what it takes to Train one,, then you have to learn how to be a good handler.. a whole nuther thread in its self. 



I find this all very difficult... For me,, almost impossible...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> There is a HUGE difference between a group of people in a club training together, and a group of people training together guided by a legitimate pro.If you ask questions in a club atmosphere you will prolly get 50 different answers and opinions. A group that is grounded with the expertise of a Pro, keeps all standards and routines the same.. The same
> 
> Its very hard to find,,, at least out here!
> 
> ...


You're scaring me, Gooser, that is so dead right on!!!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> There is a HUGE difference between a group of people in a club training together, and a group of people training together guided by a legitimate pro.If you ask questions in a club atmosphere you will prolly get 50 different answers and opinions. A group that is grounded with the expertise of a Pro, keeps all standards and routines the same.. The same
> 
> Its very hard to find,,, at least out here!
> 
> ...


I agree and that is when common sense prevails. And I disagree with the statement with a pro involved. I have train in the past with several pros in the field trail part and although each have their own opinions on what should be done and each with their own agenda, the common denominator is the program in which they use.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> I agree and that is when common sense prevails. And I disagree with the statement with a pro involved. I have train in the past with several pros in the field trail part and although each have their own opinions on what should be done and each with their own agenda, the common denominator is the program in which they use.


 That's called a standard,, and if you dont agree with it,, you are more than welcome to leave.. Their days arnt about theology,, its about successful training,,, Not debate...

You get work done. everyone is on the same page. They know the routine at the line, they know when and how to throw, they know what a good flyer is, they know when and how to help a young dog when needed... At least they should,,,,, then there is ME!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> That's called a standard,, and if you dont agree with it,, *you are more than welcome to leave*.. Their days arnt about theology,, its about successful training,,, Not debate...
> 
> You get work done. everyone is on the same page. They know the routine at the line, they know when and how to throw, they know what a good flyer is, they know when and how to help a young dog when needed... At least they should,,,,, then there is ME!


Are you threatening me?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> There is a HUGE difference between a group of people in a club training together, and a group of people training together guided by a legitimate pro.If you ask questions in a club atmosphere you will prolly get 50 different answers and opinions. A group that is grounded with the expertise of a Pro, keeps all standards and routines the same.. The same
> 
> Its very hard to find,,, at least out here!
> 
> ...


Very very true unfortunately. I found it very difficult to learn!IMO Day training with Al A. was tops to me and I learn alot even if I am just watching. I am also able to train at times with Connie S. and it has been a great great opportunity and learning experience almost at my door. Connie is an excellent teacher and trainer. 
Dogs are resilient-a good handler, I am a long way off. Love to learn and listen!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> That's called a standard,, and if you dont agree with it,, you are more than welcome to leave.. Their days arnt about theology,, its about successful training,,, Not debate...
> 
> You get work done. everyone is on the same page. They know the routine at the line, they know when and how to throw, they know what a good flyer is, they know when and how to help a young dog when needed... At least they should,,,,, then there is ME!


Well said again. 

I do wish everyone that was interested in training had the chance to spend time with a really good, successful pro or am, the chance to go through a string of dogs being run and see the why, when and how each is handled, corrected or helped and whatnot. Why the birds are placed where they are. Having a good bird boy is almost priceless, learning to be a good bird boy, makes you priceless. Trying to learn it all with your first dog and only that dog, going from books and dvds and internet forums, you miss stuff and it can get frustrating, especially when you show up at a test/trial and are handed your hat. It gets blamed on the pros or the judges or people having more time and money than you do. 

Reality, the new person needs help to be shown how to effectively train, how really awesome it can be, how much fun it is to learn and progress. The new person needs to be well-hooked before they enter a test/trial and know enough to know that failure happens, don't get discouraged by it, learn from it. Club training days can be overwhelming and confusing to a new person. There are often many and varied opinions that are counterproductive to a new handler. I think a mentor, one-on-one time, and being in a smallish group that is cohesive and on the same page as far as methods is of more value, especially when starting out. That's what I mean by finding a good group with a great teacher/leader isn't easy. Finding a club is easy. Asking questions of members is easy. Getting the right answers for you and your dog, not so much. It's finding the right group or training partner that will make the difference. Very often, hooking up with a pro and paying for at least some day training is how one finds what works for them. 

Clubs are the foundation. They hold the tests/trials. They need a steady influx of new members to replace those lost. Creating the right kind of member, to me, is key. Not one that expects to be entertained or is too bored to sit through a big entry or that needs to get a ribbon or play all day regardless of what their dog did. Just sounds like more of the entitlement so many are so sick of already and are those the type that are going to volunteer to work or judge or organize? Not likely. Get them hooked on good dog work. If they've got that passion, that's what sticks. It's hard when so many don't hunt anymore, the kids don't get hooked early. Clubs holding youth/family events have the right idea. Duluth has a train the trainer program in the summer. 

Showcasing what these dogs can do lights up people's eyes. When they come for their pup and see my dogs work, even though it's just a little demo in the yard, when they see a dog sit on a whistle, take a cast, pick up "a triple", they are amazed and, they want that. They start out just wanting a hunting dog, and while many go no further than that, they want a trained hunting dog. They might get their feet wet running a JH. I want them to not be disappointed and turned off. So I give them links to training resources and clubs in their area, sure, but also, referrals to trainers to help them one on one. It's a total package to get people hooked and keep them playing. Just telling them to join a club is only part of it.


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## GA Birddog (Sep 24, 2014)

The weekend for most of us that have one or two dogs in this game is to VOLUNTEER your time to help run the test. Marshall, Shoot flyers, move equiptment, bird steward, blind planter, run a winger, etc. There is ALWAYS something for you to do besides" sitting on your truck tailgate for two days". I wish more people would look at this as a sport/activity in which to PARTICIPATE and possibly give back. If you don't want a higher entry fee, offer to work as a bird boy for the weekend between running your dog so that the Club does not have to pay for bird boys. The more workders we have, the more stakes can be run.....depending upon grounds availability. That Is All..........


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

BJGatley said:


> Are you threatening me?


Are you serious??????


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## dlatulip (Apr 3, 2012)

Rainmaker said:


> Well said again.
> 
> I do wish everyone that was interested in training had the chance to spend time with a really good, successful pro or am, the chance to go through a string of dogs being run and see the why, when and how each is handled, corrected or helped and whatnot. Why the birds are placed where they are. Having a good bird boy is almost priceless, learning to be a good bird boy, makes you priceless. Trying to learn it all with your first dog and only that dog, going from books and dvds and internet forums, you miss stuff and it can get frustrating, especially when you show up at a test/trial and are handed your hat. It gets blamed on the pros or the judges or people having more time and money than you do.
> 
> ...



Very well put. 

I just started in April and jumped in with both feet. I joined two different clubs in the area. Participated in 4 HT and my dog earned her JH in July. (She did it, not me) Not knowing anything at first I helped my club on anything they asked. I was very fortunate to be at a few events where an AKC Rep/Judge Joe Reinhardt put on a mini seminar on judging. I was also able to work an event where Dave Rorem was teaching a handling class, Although I worked these events I still learned a ton. 
I would have to say that Joe R was very instrumental in me getting hooked and staying hooked so far. He could tell I was a newbie and he kept stressing to all of us on our first test that "this is fun". As I left the line he complimented me on my dog and her wonderful line manners and said "Do you still feel like throwing up" I was way nervous!!

Cons as a NEWBIE
Hard to learn all the terms and the difference between events. HRC HT FT NAHRA.. Etc.. 
Not knowing enough to help the club or train my dog
It does seem unfair that the events seem to be catered around the pro's but I do understand. A club could not put on an event and draw enough local folks to make a profit without the pros'
Confusing at times getting directions from multiple members in the clubs. 
In Montana there are very few events. 

Pro's
This is fun and rewarding.
Biggest PRO.. I would say I am most proud of my "Tana" and the bond I have built with her. 
Tex Gold has this sig line and it is very true and I can sense this in my dog as we progress. "When a man is proud of his dog and shows it, I like him. When his dog is proud of him and shows it, I deeply respect him.” — Gene Hill


BTW I'm in my 50's, It's not too old to teach a old dog!!


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## Garduck (Feb 1, 2013)

The numbers certainly don't lie and I reckon fresh blood is always a good thing for our sport. That being said as a self proclaimed young gun I witnessed 4 or 5 others in their mid 20s at my first trial. I have seen other similar numbers at most Texas trials. I am also aware of several young pros that are doing quite well at least in the minor stakes. These pros are due to human nature I would guess are attracting and bringing in young clients into their fold. This is what I've seen at least maybe the lack of youngens those more seasoned are witnessing is due to their interactions at trials being primarily in the all age stakes and with their peers. I for one have befriended many first timers and young guns at all of my trials.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Garduck said:


> The numbers certainly don't lie and I reckon fresh blood is always a good thing for our sport. That being said as a self proclaimed young gun I witnessed 4 or 5 others in their mid 20s at my first trial. I have seen other similar numbers at most Texas trials. I am also aware of several young pros that are doing quite well at least in the minor stakes. These pros are due to human nature I would guess are attracting and bringing in young clients into their fold. This is what I've seen at least maybe the lack of youngens those more seasoned are witnessing is due to their interactions at trials being primarily in the all age stakes and with their peers. I for one have befriended many first timers and young guns at all of my trials.


Here's hoping your young peers are still around field trials 10 years from now


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

EdA said:


> Here's hoping your young peers are still around field trials 10 years from now


here's hoping we are ALL still around with a field trial game to play in ten years


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Rainmaker said:


> Well said again.
> 
> I do wish everyone that was interested in training had the chance to spend time with a really good, successful pro or am, the chance to go through a string of dogs being run and see the why, when and how each is handled, corrected or helped and whatnot. Why the birds are placed where they are. Having a good bird boy is almost priceless, learning to be a good bird boy, makes you priceless. Trying to learn it all with your first dog and only that dog, going from books and dvds and internet forums, you miss stuff and it can get frustrating, especially when you show up at a test/trial and are handed your hat. It gets blamed on the pros or the judges or people having more time and money than you do.
> 
> ...


If a possible solution is to "create" the ideal club member wouldn't it stand to reason that we should be shooting even low in the age bracket? Should we be trying to "hook" the 8-18 year old? A strong argument could be made that what the child loves do the family will follow. Instead of spending evenings or weekends at a ball field, stadium, court etc the kid and family spend it training? 

Open quesiton to the seasoned or experienced people on the thread that have been involved in HT/FT games, what age did you get involved with dog training? I would bet there is a strong correlation to those that were involved before the age of 25 vs over 40ish, but that is just an assumption.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Most kids who are raised in field trial homes never want to throw another bird for the rest of their lives.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

EdA said:


> When I started the young crowd was in their late 20s and 30s, now the young crowd is in their late 40s and 50s.


They made dog boxes for horse and buggies?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

BonMallari said:


> here's hoping we are ALL still around with a field trial game to play in ten years


I vote for this!!!Like button


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

EdA said:


> Most kids who are raised in field trial homes never want to throw another bird for the rest of their lives.


The subject is "new blood". I would not consider someone raised in a FT home as "new"


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Peter Balzer said:


> If a possible solution is to "create" the ideal club member wouldn't it stand to reason that we should be shooting even low in the age bracket? Should we be trying to "hook" the 8-18 year old? A strong argument could be made that what the child loves do the family will follow. Instead of spending evenings or weekends at a ball field, stadium, court etc the kid and family spend it training?
> 
> Open quesiton to the seasoned or experienced people on the thread that have been involved in HT/FT games, what age did you get involved with dog training? I would bet there is a strong correlation to those that were involved before the age of 25 vs over 40ish, but that is just an assumption.


Not quite sure I understand all of your question. But, I do think, for our a society as a whole, we would benefit from having our youth involved in the outdoors and preserving our wild areas, and not just for looking pretty, but real conservation, which means using, understanding and harvesting from nature. Hunting is one very good way. Unfortunately, we are losing more and more of that culture with every generation. Even living where I do, where gun deer season is virtually a holiday and there is more blaze orange per square mile than any other attire, it is on the downturn. 

As for the last part of your question, I never hunted, no one in my family hunted, didn't like hunting, didn't like guns, wouldn't touch a bird, wouldn't let a "shock collar" anywhere near my dogs, though I won't go so far as to say I was ever a clicker trainer. ;-) My husband's family, all hunters, I still never got into it, wanted nothing to do with venison or any other wild game, except fish, I do love to fish. As long as someone else baited my hook. Late 30s I got my first real Lab, non rescue dog ($250 from a genuine backyard breeder). One of my husband's coworkers ran AKC HT with his golden, talked me into trying it, told me to get Richard Wolters' Gundog. We trained with bumpers, the occasional pigeon if we got real lucky at the farm. He was a very obedient, well-trained dog. Until we went on our first pheasant hunt. He never lost a bird and delivered every one to hand, but everything in between was not fun. Got home from that trip and signed up Hudson for boot camp with the local trainer, joined his training group, which was not easy. They were guys less than thrilled to be saddled with another noob, let alone a female that knew absolutely nothing. Ran my first JH, never having seen a HT in my life. Never picked up a bird at that first test (they used chukars, neither of us knew what chukars were then), drove home 3 hours and went to work harder. Hudson didn't fail another JH, finished his SH with 2 fails. 16 years later, we're trying FT and still having fun running our dogs. I also discovered I love pheasant hunting, I like to shoot guns and I can even bait my own hook now. 

My son, now 30, was raised hunting and continues to love hunting. He has three dogs, only one a Lab. He shoots for me and doesn't mind training on a rare occasion, but he has no desire to run HT or FT. He was bird boy for years, possibly it was burned out of him early, the bugs, the nasty birds, being wet, cold, hot, missing social life, doesn't seem to have much appeal to him.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Peter Balzer said:


> If a possible solution is to "create" the ideal club member wouldn't it stand to reason that we should be shooting even low in the age bracket? Should we be trying to "hook" the 8-18 year old? A strong argument could be made that what the child loves do the family will follow. Instead of spending evenings or weekends at a ball field, stadium, court etc the kid and family spend it training?


My kids are involved and love doing it, but they are young and that may change. The problem with attracting the 8-18 year olds is they likely won't have the time or means to really play the game for 10-20 years into their adulthood. Unless there are some very special circumstances it would be pretty impossible for someone to be competitive or even own a dog during college or fresh out of college while apartment living etc. Attracting the young kids to make a family sport so that the parent(s) can justify the time and cost is one way to help though.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

My OPINION!!

I believe one of if not the biggest deter-ant that turns new blood away is "Elitism"

Venue bashing, statements made that certain titles dont "mean anything". Wanting to stand and "Preach" to a new member,instead of Training, and teaching.

You clubs that have a new member show up for their first training day,then put that member out on a gun station, then forget about that guy because all of you "senior" members of that club get so wrapped up in YOUR training day,, you forget the new guy! He walks away with a pretty bad taste in his mouth Cause he worked all day,, and then finally,,, in second thought,,,, got his chance to run his dog,,then they struggle. 

The "senior" members want to go home cause "Their" day is over,, and they want to leave... No real time spent with new club member... I have seen it happen more times than I would like to admit..

Thowing birds and running gun stations are part of the learning process to train a dog.. But if you really want new members, that are Fanatical about training dogs. They need slow introduction, and a LOT of encouragement,,, and simple success.. JUST LIKE THE DOG DOES!!!!! Then working will eventually happen..


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> The subject is "new blood". I would not consider someone raised in a FT home as "new"


Unless you have a magical way to attract the age group you have identified other than what the family does together then I do not understand your proposition. Additionally I can tell you that in my 40 years of involvement in field trials the vast majority of those who become lifers like me all started with "wanting a hunting dog" so realistically exposing youngsters to hunting seems the most likely path to find new blood.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

EdA said:


> Unless you have a magical way to attract the age group you have identified other than what the family does together then I do not understand your proposition. Additionally I can tell you that in my 40 years of involvement in field trials the vast majority of those who become lifers like me all started with "wanting a hunting dog" so realistically exposing youngsters to hunting seems the most likely path to find new blood.



Spot On!!!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

EdA said:


> Unless you have a magical way to attract the age group you have identified other than what the family does together then I do not understand your proposition. Additionally I can tell you that in my 40 years of involvement in field trials the vast majority of those who become lifers like me all started with "wanting a hunting dog" so realistically exposing youngsters to hunting seems the most likely path to find new blood.


That describes me exactly. I started hunting at age eight with my Dad and grandpa, duck hunting at 15 with my neighbors. I was hooked on hunting, always wanted a dog, but really couldn't until I settled down and got married at 41. Then "just a hunting dog", maybe a few hunt test to keep the dog happy and tuned up during the off season, then the ribbons start coming and I'm hooked. The rest is history.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

EdA said:


> Unless you have a magical way to attract the age group you have identified other than what the family does together then I do not understand your proposition. Additionally I can tell you that in my 40 years of involvement in field trials the vast majority of those who become lifers like me all started with "wanting a hunting dog" so realistically exposing youngsters to hunting seems the most likely path to find new blood.


If I had a magical way to attract them I'd already be doing it. This is essentially a brainstorming session on the internet. I have minimal experience and many questions.

Wanting a hunting dog is also how I got started. Maybe the way to attract any age group is to demonstrate what a well trained dog looks like in a hunting situation. Tie the 2 together. Demonstrate the conservation aspect of a dog in the field and the pure enjoyment of watching a well trained dog work.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I believe one of if not the biggest deter-ant that turns new blood away is "Elitism"


What have you done to promote New Blood?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm not certain I understand the issue about new blood. Are we talking about the aging of the average field trailer and worrying about 10-15 years from now as many of us "age-out"? Getting more people involved in the various hunt test games? Giant numbers seem to be the issue there. 

Not too many years ago our local group tried to muster up interest in our new NAHRA gun dog club, by putting on some pretty cool demos with hot dogs and sodas. People were impressed and we did get some new members. But wanting a well trained, nice hunting dog and working hard every day to train one up are two different things. After a while people drifted out of hunt test, or moved up to field trials. We still have our same core, but now we are all running field trials and doing pretty well. Of course we are all older so, old blood, not new blood.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

EdA said:


> Unless you have a magical way to attract the age group you have identified other than what the family does together then I do not understand your proposition. Additionally I can tell you that in my 40 years of involvement in field trials the vast majority of those who become lifers like me all started with "wanting a hunting dog" so realistically exposing youngsters to hunting seems the most likely path to find new blood.


Exactly! So many factors that are influencing the decline in hunting and grooming new bird hunters that I can't begin to list. I believe that I'm the only person in my town who buys a duck stamp. And Vermont is one of the more hunting oriented states in the country! Your point and the lack of vision of those who control the venue and the future looks bleak.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Get involved in youth hunts. I try and take 3 to 4 kids on their opening day every year. They are out future. 
And when they see a good dog work, they almost forget the hunting aspect and are in awe of what the dog can do. 

Edit to post; This can be for duck hunting or upland hunting.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> What have you done to promote New Blood?


I AM new blood TED!!

but to answer your question!,,

In YOUR world NOTHING!!!

If you were to talk to the powers that be in Platte Valley HRC,, I bet you would find they appreciate Gooser sending them prospective new members.

I train everyday at Chatfield. Many New guys with dogs show up there in the mornings. I have introduced myself, when they have watched Flinch run her blinds, and approached me asking questions about what we did to get her to run those long blinds.. I answered as best I could,, Invited them to join me in the mornings, and sent them to "Clubs" to join as most of their interests are with owning a HUNTING retriever.

I now have made several new friends, that meet most everyday, train, and throw birds for each other..

But,, as far as YOUR world goes,, I dont participate,,,, unless you consider my attendance at Cherylons every week-end for the past three yrs or more,,, and by the way,, throwing dead birds,, and shooting Flyers for her Clients dogs,,many of them were Yours!!! Since Flinch, I was invited to show up 1 hr early every Saturday,and Cherylon Taught me her "Way",, then sent me home with home work to work on during that following week. Ask HER! I followed that routine religiously!! I AM new BLOOD TED!!! I owe CHERYLON the world... Her patience is incredible..

Who was it that approached you to give a seminar to a HT club Membership????? I was trying to get an experienced speaker to help new inexperienced members of that club a chance to listen to you Speak!!... Did you forget that?????

You have questioned my dedication publicly in the past.. I took offense to that.. You really have NO IDEA what I do with my time..

We are not all cut out to field trial!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted!

I have never seen you at several of the Sportmans exhibition shows in Denver working as a demonstration handler team promoting club memberhips of several HT clubs along the front range.

I never saw you at Bass Pro Shops "Waterfowl Week Ends" trying to promote and demonstrate retriever skills to gain memberships for area clubs!

Like I said... You have no Idea what I do with my time!!

FT arn't for everyone!!!


Mike Baker


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## Garduck (Feb 1, 2013)

EdA said:


> Here's hoping your young peers are still around field trials 10 years from now


I hope so too! I also hope to see your boy Holland run for the first time next weekend.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted!!


I have never seen examples of your work on Auction tables at HT's DONATED to those clubs to raise MONEY!!!!
Those clubs, that take in new members and help them along with their dog training.. 

You have no IDEA what I do with my time!!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mike

I don't know what you do with your time. 
Nor do I know who you are accusing of being elitist.
But, I believe that people who accuse others of not promoting "new blood" had best make certain that they themselves do not live in glass houses before they throw stones.
If you think that you have encouraged "new blood" then good for you

Ted


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> What have you done to promote New Blood?


This is one example of what detours some folks from the game. What a great question to someone interested in the game. Now that's promotion! 

I started running my 1 meat dog in trials in my late 20's. With help from a small training group and a few pro stints, I enjoyed minimal success and my pooch pieced together an AFC. 

My son was born in my 30's. 

I probably can't justify missing football, baseball, hunting, and fishing with my son to train and trial a successful dog. 

But I could find a way maybe. Get my boy involved too maybe. I think he'd enjoy the training at least like I did. 

But then I remember all the social misfits in the game, and realize it's not much of a group to have my son around at a weekend trial. 

Maybe one day when my kid is grown, my love for retrievers and competition will lure me back.

But for now I'd rather "pound sand" than have my boy around the self proclaimed "promoters" of the game for 3 days straight. 

Wake up Merica!


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

New Blood..."Nice dog , what is an FC"?
Dog Owner.."It's a title a dog receives after winning /earning points"?
New Blood.."Did you win money"?
Dog Owner.."No , you don't win money"
New Blood..."Did you do that yourself"?
Dog Owner.."NO , I paid someone to do that"
New Blood....thinks but doesn't say it...that sounds stupid, why would you pay someone to do that...
Ramminretrievers says....Get out and learn how to train and handle a dog in training and in competitions, it's alot more fun if you do it yourself...


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Randy Bohn said:


> New Blood..."Nice dog , what is an FC"?
> Dog Owner.."It's a title a dog receives after winning /earning points"?
> New Blood.."Did you win money"?
> Dog Owner.."No , you don't win money"
> ...


Get out and learn how to w/ your dog! NB IMO. I am not criticizing those who choose to go to a pro. I understand circumstances.

Learning myself has pitfalls especially if you are new. I do make more mistakes! It is harder. I have to be choosier and more careful to find the information out so I really don't dig deep holes. Sometimes you are going backwards to get ahead. I call it spinning my wheels. I have managed to get this far and will just keep plugging along. Each day we go out whether w/ someone or by myself; we have alot of fun. Main purpose.IMO I do feel like I have accomplished something! If by myself, I plan out what we need to do and go to it! It does keep me going at my age, out in the fresh air? and it is great being w/ my dogs. IMO


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

I ran my first Trial (a derby) last October. The last couple years of training and competing with a young dog that I have trained myself (alone 90% of the time) has been one of the most awesome and rewarding experiences in my 37 years. I've met some great folks and really enjoyed it.

Last Thursday-Friday I spent 11 hours on the road (by myself) to stay in a motel (by myself) to run a trial (by myself)

Well, Saturday morning found me in a goose field for the first time with little buddy who is five. Let's just say the term "higher priority" has significant meaning all of the sudden!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Great post and great pics Mountain Duck

For those wanting new blood here is some for you
http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-and-his-big-heart&highlight=MJH345+BIG+HEART

Since that weekend that young lady has decided she really wants a dog
To the credit of the retriever community there were a number of people who volunteered to give that young lady a puppy. She was adamant that she wanted a puppy out of the Healmarks Sam I Am dog she ran and trained with They had an incredible time and bonded strongly. To that end as soon as Sam is old enough to get all of his health clearances we will be looking for a suitable bitch to breed to and give this darling young lady the pick of the litter. Hopefully she will still be enjoying dogs decades after the rest of us are long gone
Since that weekend I have had 3 other "New bloods" run Sam. A young lady ran him in her first HUnt test in St Louistwo weeks ago. She did great and has purchased a dog to continue her newfound passion.
This past weekend a young adult ran Sam in the Senior Test at the Sooner Club. He did great and is now addicted and will be running Sam again in the future. His 5 yr old son also ran Sam in the two Jr tests and really wowwed the crowd. Those two Junior passes completed Sam's requirements for his Master Hunter title allowing that precious 5 yr old boy to pick up two Jr ribbons as well as a Master title ribbon and a Senior Title ribbon. The joy and pride that young man had was felt by us all That young man has a new best buddy and will continue to run and hunt Sam in the future. The plans are to let his sister run Sam in some HRC events and get some more "NEW BLOOD" involved in our sport.

I want to thank all of these young "new bloods" for the wonderful work they did with Sam. I shed tears of joy watching all of them work together so seamlessly. It was a joy to behold and brought me great Pride as well as immeasurable thrills to the 4 "new Bloods" and Sam
I highly reccommend others to emulate these mutually beneficial experiences


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I didn't realize Bartlett was still training dogs 

But then I remember all the social misfits in the game, and realize it's not much of a group to have my son around at a weekend trial.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Great post and great pics Mountain Duck
> 
> For those wanting new blood here is some for you
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-and-his-big-heart&highlight=MJH345+BIG+HEART
> ...


Now that's what I'm talking about!

This is how it's done folks.

Win, win for all. Dogs gets more runs and young folks get addicted.

Good on you mjh for getting what it's really all about!


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> I didn't realize Bartlett was still training dogs
> 
> But then I remember all the social misfits in the game, and realize it's not much of a group to have my son around at a weekend trial.


Haha.

Haven't heard from GBar in some time.

Hope he is well somewhere.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I think he is down by B. White somewhere.



Ken Guthrie said:


> Haha.
> 
> Haven't heard from GBar in some time.
> 
> Hope he is well somewhere.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> I think he is down by B. White somewhere.


Trying to get B. White's pee wee pigskin team up here for a real game against the mighty Bobcats!

We had some fun back in the days didn't we? We were certainly the misfits.

I'm gonna see Glaze in December too!


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

Glaze still living down in the brush country.

Your not kidding. B is carried away. I think he watches film every night. He just told me they have only given up 12 yds in 3 games.

Misfits you are correct and def. had some fun. I think Steve still owes me a shotgun.



Ken Guthrie said:


> Trying to get B. White's pee wee pigskin team up here for a real game against the mighty Bobcats!
> 
> We had some fun back in the days didn't we? We were certainly the misfits.
> 
> I'm gonna see Glaze in December too!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Mountain Duck said:


> I ran my first Trial (a derby) last October. The last couple years of training and competing with a young dog that I have trained myself (alone 90% of the time) has been one of the most awesome and rewarding experiences in my 37 years. I've met some great folks and really enjoyed it.
> 
> Last Thursday-Friday I spent 11 hours on the road (by myself) to stay in a motel (by myself) to run a trial (by myself)
> 
> Well, Saturday morning found me in a goose field for the first time with little buddy who is five. Let's just say the term "higher priority" has significant meaning all of the sudden!


Your pictures made my day. Thanks for sharing.


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## RedHeadedHurricane (Oct 10, 2008)

I double what NCShooter stated.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Mountain Duck said:


>


If that were my boy, I would have one of these made.

http://www.fathead.com/custom/?cm_m...Q14-64330268&gclid=CIauyLLBgcECFVFgMgoduRYAcg


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Trying to get B. White's pee wee pigskin team up here for a real game against the mighty Bobcats!
> 
> We had some fun back in the days didn't we? We were certainly the misfits.
> 
> I'm gonna see Glaze in December too!


well, you might have all been misfits but you were a fun bunch ....... Not a mean spirited person in the bunch.


not sure why anybody new would want to get in the game. The past couple of weeks people have had to witness someone cussing and throwing temper tantrums, and dropping the F bomb everywhere they go. Cheating, or trying to, etc. In front of Boy Scouts and people who were checking out the game that had new pups. Great into on both counts to the sport.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Adult misbehavior is certainly not confined to dog related activities, it occurs at all types of civic, political, religious, and social activities including PTA meetings and kid athletic events at every level. It is a societal phenomenon and to avoid it would require living in isolation,


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

EdA said:


> Adult misbehavior is certainly not confined to dog related activities, it occurs at all types of civic, political, religious, and social activities including PTA meetings and kid athletic events at every level. It is a societal phenomenon and to avoid it would require living in isolation,


It's a shame Dr Ed, but you are absolutely correct.


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