# "Cigaring" Bumpers In Force Fetch. How To Fix ?



## stkpointers (Sep 5, 2008)

Am working through force fetch with a 10 month old female. She's got the concept down great, lunges for the bumper when I say fetch and is a very willing student but promptly works the bumper around to hold by the end. I don't dare have a rope tied to it or she'll hold the rope, only use a plain bumper so we don't have that issue too. We've been working daily for 3 weeks on proper mouth placement and she continues to do it. If I remove the bumper and put it back in properly she'll hold by the middle as long as I ask. Should I be concerned? Just continue gritting it out with her? Suggestions?


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

You can cut some pieces of PVC pipe and slide them a few inches over the ends of the bumper and that will keep her from grabbing it by the end.


----------



## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

You can gently take the bumper from her and place it back in her mouth properly telling her to hold, if she starts mouthing it around to try and get it by the end again just a light tap on the bottom jaw with your hand and repeat the hold command. Also might look into making or buying a training buck ( mine is a piece of a coat rod out of a closet with a couple of pieces of 2 x 4 screwed to the end) teaches the dog to grab by the center rather than the end.


----------



## BigKahuna13 (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm assuming that the bumper is being picked up off the floor and thats where you are running into the issue so disregard if I am incorrect. My pup did something similar. What I did wan while the "Fetch" Command was given I put hand over the end of the bumper so the pup couldn't grab it. Then lots of praise for holding the correct way. No praise and repeat for an incorrect hold. Good Luck! Hope this helps.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

This is the time to work on such things because you're building the standards for your dog's mouth habits. Altered bumpers can be a help because that's part of habit formation; a dumbell-shaped object helps preclude holding poorly. But correcting it shows the dog what you want. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd72kl9lZlc

Evan


----------



## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

My son just put his dog through force-fetch about a month ago. She too cigared some of the bumpers and whenever she would he would just correct her grip and say "hold", followed by lots of praise. Have you tried the FF with birds yet? I've never seen a dog cigar a bird.

Lonnie Spann


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I don't do any thing about it and it still goes away.
Pete


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Lonnie Spann said:


> My son just put his dog through force-fetch about a month ago. She too cigared some of the bumpers and whenever she would he would just correct her grip and say "hold", followed by lots of praise. Have you tried the FF with birds yet? I've never seen a dog cigar a bird.
> 
> Lonnie Spann












If that's okay with you, that's fine by me. But in my experience this behavior reflects an overall poor attitude about mouth habits, and is often accompanied by digressive acts like frequent drops, poor delivery, etc.

A suggestion made earlier about how to alter a bumper during FF is one I like, and can be used with paint rollers also. (Thanks Jim!)










Evan


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Pete said:


> I don't do any thing about it and it still goes away.


I'm with Pete, they'll figure it out - and without any "lowered standards" for delivery. Also lots (and lots) of folks don't force fetch on birds - they'll figure that out too






































nor FF on other creatures that *could be* "cigared" either.




















MG


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Many will. Some won't, including this one. 










Some are chronic about a loose mouth on game and other objects because the training wasn't adequately done. Why not do the training? In my own training we're not done with FTP until we've forced on real birds, and cleaned up any issues like this. It takes very little time and effort. I suppose it's too much trouble if you don't enjoy training.

Each year I look back on some of the training questions I get by email and in other ways. There are always several about loose mouths, poor delivery, and cigaring. It's just FF unfinished. My advice is consistenly to finish the job.

Evan


----------



## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

mine cigared bumpers, liked to chomp on them too. But would carry a bird or even a paper plate with nary a dimple. was not worth the fight for me.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

gdluck said:


> ...was not worth the fight for me.


This one always amazes me. Why is training a fight? Why not just train?

Evan


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Pete said:


> I don't do any thing about it and it still goes away.
> Pete


I'm not going to argue with Evan, I understand his point completely. I only had one dog (my first) cigar bumpers, like Pete said after awhile he just figured out it was easier to carry them the normal way, though now that I think about it he was a little loose on birds.

John


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

gdluck said:


> mine cigared bumpers, liked to chomp on them too. But would carry a bird or even a paper plate with nary a dimple. was not worth the fight for me.


Same here. The cigar "problem" with bumpers eventually worked itself out as well.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Evan said:


> This one always amazes me. Why is training a fight? Why not just train?
> 
> Evan



Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
.
I don't use a video camera, but you obviously do Evan, as evidenced by your many you tube videos. So I'll make you a deal you put up a youtube video of a dog cigarring a bird and I'll address & fix that problem for you.

As to your quote "WHY NOT JUST TRAIN" I would say that is advice you should take to heart.

As opposed to sitting in front of your computer all day long sub liminally pimping your products on every available dog website known to man, why dont you get out and follow your above quote.?
Actual hands on training is the only way you can stay abreast of advances in dog training & where you learn what does and doesn't work with dogs. 
You owe it to the people who actually succumb to your promotional assault and buy your products, to stay current and be competent in what you promote
Step out from behind your computer and step up to the line. Im guessing youll have a good time and get some fresh air
Call copterdoc up to train with you; Im thinking you could both use some fresh air
Good Luck & Good Training


----------



## BigKahuna13 (Mar 6, 2009)

I believe that its a fight when you and the dog have a miscommunication about the task at hand and the expected result. We have all at one point or another had them. Its just a matter of figuring out the best way to correct the issue.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> As to your quote "WHY NOT JUST TRAIN" I would say that is advice you should take to heart.


In various obnoxious ways, that's pretty much all you ever say whether it has any relevance to helping anyone or not...usually not.


mjh345 said:


> As opposed to sitting in front of your computer all day long sub liminally pimping your products on every available dog website known to man, why dont you get out and follow your above quote.?


Whereas you're perched in the dark recesses of the net eager to offer slime like this. Thanks for the helpful hint.

Evan


----------



## Matthew J. Ries (Jul 1, 2012)

So back to questions about "cigarring." At what point do you consider it to be an issue? Example: my 10 month old YLF is currently working on wrapping up the intro/teaching to casting before we re-in"force" it and then start T and TT work. She had a harder time than what I would consider normal with "hold" and then we went through FF without any issues. During FTP, she was cigarring almost every bumper. I went back and spent more time and focus on FF and changed to larger bumpers. Cigarring disappeared. Now during the intro to casting, she randomly cigars a bumper, or cigars a bumper then as she approaches me repositions and comes in to finishing position. If she comes back with the bumper improperly placed or fails to finish cleanly (comes in and heels on my left and sits holding the bumper) then I take the bumper from her and command fetch (correction nick if she hesitates). 
Am I to the point I should expect 100% perfect holds? She nails marks and does not have an issue, it rears its head on FTP and yard T work. I think the next step may be to alter the bumpers to allow for only a good center hold (PVC end caps etc).
Thoughts?


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
> Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
> My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
> .
> ...


Wow! Overreact much?


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Evan said:


> This is the time to work on such things because you're building the standards for your dog's mouth habits. Altered bumpers can be a help because that's part of habit formation; a dumbell-shaped object helps preclude holding poorly. But correcting it shows the dog what you want. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd72kl9lZlc
> 
> Evan


I use a obedience dumbell during Ff and it usually takes care of the problem down the road,. Others have made suggestions, all good for the present. It is annoying, but, not a big deal at this stage of your training in my opinion.
You don't want a lot of excess baggage with pressure ,other pressures. If the dog isn't shopping on the pile, maybe throw a bumper or two and gently put the correct hold on the finish with the retrieve? Do this in a different spot before you start pile work. Also, maybe try a correct hold it command and heel the dog around a bit on lead. There is no magic dust to throw on the dog at this stage of the game, be creative. Good luck, keep asking questions and if the hole gets too deep quit digging until you get some advice. If you intend to use the e collar program Ff is the foundation of the entire program and will follow your dog through it's entire. One thing be careful with the tender gals.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> I use a obedience dumbell during Ff and it usually takes care of the problem down the road,. Others have made suggestions, all good for the present.


That's the approach that keeps it from becoming an issue; do it right the first time. Even if it comes up down the road you will have trained a standard you can uphold readily with the tools you gave the dog. There are items like the obedience dumbell, or a FF bumper sold by various equipment vendors. I use a paint roller in the early stages that I sometimes fit with the same PVC reducer shown on this bumper. You can put one on each end like the dumbell shape.










Get them at your local hardware store. Still, inspite of your good conditioning with a tool like this, some corrections may be necessary; a cuff under the chin commanding "Hold" for example.

Evan


----------



## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
> Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
> My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
> .
> ...


I’m amazed people who post like this are left on here it's to bad.


----------



## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

Evan said:


> This one always amazes me. Why is training a fight? Why not just train?
> 
> Evan


Maybe a poor word choice that was overanalyzed. Was not important enough to spend valuable training time on.


----------



## Brian Daniels (May 21, 2011)

mjh345 said:


> Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
> Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
> My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
> .
> ...


Says the guy sitting in front of his own computer. His product works, he offers free and sound advice on here. Tool.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Matador said:


> So back to questions about "cigarring."* At what point do you consider it to be an issue? * Example: my 10 month old YLF is currently working on wrapping up the intro/teaching to casting before we re-in"force" it and then start T and TT work. She had a harder time than what I would consider normal with "hold" and then we went through FF without any issues. During FTP, she was cigarring almost every bumper. I went back and spent more time and focus on FF and changed to larger bumpers. Cigarring disappeared. Now during the intro to casting, she randomly cigars a bumper, or cigars a bumper then as she approaches me repositions and comes in to finishing position. If she comes back with the bumper improperly placed or fails to finish cleanly (comes in and heels on my left and sits holding the bumper) then I take the bumper from her and command fetch (correction nick if she hesitates).
> Am I to the point I should expect 100% perfect holds? She nails marks and does not have an issue, it rears its head on FTP and yard T work. I think the next step may be to alter the bumpers to allow for only a good center hold (PVC end caps etc).
> Thoughts?


The very first time it happens...Every time the dog brings a bumper to me and it is not correctly positioned , I reposition it and command hold ...I'm with Evan on this one ...Why except sloppy behavior and HOPE it goes away ...I have seen dogs carry birds by the wings ,heads( ducks and geese) and geese by the butts ...Some learn on their own but that is not what we want ...teach the dog the proper response from the start..Train not hope ...set your standard of behavior and go for it ...Steve S


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> The very first time it happens...Every time the dog brings a bumper to me and it is not correctly positioned , I reposition it and command hold


The very first time. Hmm, would that be like eight weeks old











or maybe nine?



















Give them the early introduction, and "hope" has nothing to do with it, and it ain't becoming an issue, either.

MG


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I start out using a buck made out of a wood closet dowel I drill 2 hole in each end big enough to insert a small wood dowel into so they form an X that keeps them from grabbing the end and also holds it off the floor so they can pick it up easier. After they are holding and picking that up well I switch to a dumbbell it's closer to the floor but is still easier to pickup then a bumper and they still won't grab the end when they are holding that well I then go to a bumper. If they try to cigar it I put PVC pipe on the ends but by the time they get to the bumper there's usually not a problem with them holding it correctly.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

crackerd said:


> The very first time. Hmm, would that be like eight weeks old
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is exactly what you are doing ..HOPE...Just because a dog learns something on its on doesn't mean it will be the correct way ...You take what a pup at 8 weeks gives you ..you hope it will just drag it away to play with it ....As Danny Farmer put it one time, " natural dogs pee in the floor , I want a trained dog" Steve S


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> That is exactly what you are doing ..HOPE...Just because a dog learns something on its on doesn't mean it will be the correct way ...You take what a pup at 8 weeks gives you ..you hope it will just drag it away to play with it ....


So you're saying a pup picks a bumper or bird correctly at 8-9-10 weeks, it's going to _*un*_train itself when older to start cigaring them? That seems to be your premise. Nobody said anything about dragging anything anywhere, but mine have done a pretty good job getting the goods back to me from the git-go. So they're going to _*un*_train themselves on delivering to hand too? 

I would infer that you also "hope" I train them up - and like I say, ain't no hope necessary in that little equation or whether they'll retrieve the right way, either. Cigaring strikes me as making a mountain out of insignificance - but I've not had the "problem" with any gundog I've ever trained, so your lecturing on it will have to suffice as to how to overcome it.

MG


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

crackerd said:


> So you're saying a pup picks a bumper or bird correctly at 8-9-10 weeks, it's going to _*un*_train itself when older to start cigaring them? That seems to be your premise. Nobody said anything about dragging anything anywhere, but mine have done a pretty good job getting the goods back to me from the git-go. So they're going to _*un*_train themselves on delivering to hand too?
> 
> I would infer that you also "hope" I train them up - and like I say, ain't no hope necessary in that little equation or whether they'll retrieve the right way, either. Cigaring strikes me as making a mountain out of insignificance - but I've not had the "problem" with any gundog I've ever trained, so your lecturing on it will have to suffice as to how to overcome it.
> 
> MG


 * If you took the word ( YOU ) in my other post personal it was not intended that away ..YOU was to apply to every dog owner.... We take what ever an 8 week old pup gives us ...proper hold and retrieve OR drag it around and play with it ...
*
Let's not start an argument over this ...When it comes to dogs behavior most dogs will also learn (on their own ) to play keep away at some point of their young lives...Because they are just doing it ( returning and carrying it ) on their own and want to...When their mind changes the behavior will change too...I hope you never have an issue with a dog not holding or retrieving properly for you ...But for the many out there that do, like the OP and myself, we will have to teach the dog proper behaviors....It all boils down to what ones standard of behavior is ...some say never worry about it ,fine , if that is the way they want it ...It is their dog ...I want a dog that is trained to respond in a given manner..I'm not relying on the dogs " want to " ...Steve S


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I believe anytime a young pup does something right naturally, you as the trainer have a leg up in training him, over the dog that doesn't. That doesn't mean you don't reinforce the skill through training, it's just easier if the pup is already doing it right. For example my latest pup naturally, from age seven weeks, ran right out, picked up an object or bird, and ran right back to me. That just gave me a leg up over the pup who runs out there picks up the object and plays "keep-away". We all know there is going to be a lot more training ahead for the pup, just one thing that might be easier than otherwise.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Alright guys and gals - stay on topic and stop the mud slinging! You know who you are.

FOM
RTF Moderator


----------



## stkpointers (Sep 5, 2008)

Thank you everyone, sorry I had to be away from the thread for a while but I got several great tips from this. Somewhere I do have a wooden bumper with little dowels around the end, I'll dig that out. I've only done force fetch on one other dog (I'm just wading into amateur dog training) and he never tried to cigar. But this little girl (who is also going 90 mph everywhere she goes) is a handful. I do always immediately remove (or move) the bumper and make her hold it correctly which she does willingly. However if I give her any slack and don't watch her like a hawk she immediately works her way down to the end. I understand force fetch involves lots of patience and doing things correctly so we'll just keep at it. Thanks again !


----------



## Pupknuckle (Aug 15, 2008)

Evan said:


> In various obnoxious ways, that's pretty much all you ever say whether it has any relevance to helping anyone or not...usually not.Whereas you're perched in the dark recesses of the net eager to offer slime like this. Thanks for the helpful hint.
> 
> Evan


Evan Thanks for your input on this forum, Please do not get offended and drop off. Your advice has been very helpful in the past to me and I am sure it will be in the future.


----------



## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I take care of it in FF much like others suggest. 4" to 2" PVC reducer on 1 end. With the reducer on 1 end it also teaches a firm hold. Its not a fight with the right equipment, the dog has no other choice but pick it up correctly. During FTP and T work if they bring one in cigared I just reposition and say hold. Repeat offenses gets the bumper knocked out and fetch command. Easy as that, couldn't imagine doing it any other way.


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

mjh345 said:


> Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
> Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
> My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
> .
> ...


This was very uncalled for. Evan is excellent to answer questions and I do not EVER see him saying to "Buy my slime". Worry about your own answers... I disagree with the idea on cigar holds completely. Its not worth the time to me, because to me, they do figure it out just fine. I am NOT suggesting to lower standards on dropping, but cigar holds are just not worth spending a lot of time on. Now there are times when mouth problems exsist, like mouthing or dropping, thats a whole other ballgame...


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Pupknuckle said:


> Evan Thanks for your input on this forum, Please do not get offended and drop off. Your advice has been very helpful in the past to me and I am sure it will be in the future.


Thanks, I'm not likely to allow someone like that to affect what I do. I'm glad to help anytime I can.


savage25xtreme said:


> I take care of it in FF much like others suggest. 4" to 2" PVC reducer on 1 end. With the reducer on 1 end it also teaches a firm hold. Its not a fight with the right equipment, the dog has no other choice but pick it up correctly. During FTP and T work if they bring one in cigared I just reposition and say hold. Repeat offenses gets the bumper knocked out and fetch command. Easy as that, couldn't imagine doing it any other way.


I agree. That's when I take care of it, so it doesn't become a big issue. It just has no chance of becoming one when we don't ignore it from the start of FF. 

It should be mentioned that "Cigar hold" is not a specific term, inasmuch as different dogs do it to different degrees. Some are only slightly inclined toward some slop about carrying things. Others are profoundly loose mouthed, and require a much firmer, more consistent application of corrections over more time to assure sound habits. Just because some dogs get over it on their own does not translate into all dogs solving it. Each one is different (big news flash!).

Evan


----------



## stkpointers (Sep 5, 2008)

I also thank you Evan, for your input and training advice. I have learned a great deal from your YouTube video's and appreciate the fact that I can go on line before going out to train or come in after and see how someone else does whatever concept I'm trying to work on. Extremely beneficial for me as much as the dog. I train alone 99% of the time so having a video to watch because I don't have someone to show me tips, issues, etc. is much appreciated.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Duckquilizer said:


> This was very uncalled for. Evan is excellent to answer questions and I do not EVER see him saying to "Buy my slime". Worry about your own answers... I disagree with the idea on cigar holds completely. Its not worth the time to me, because to me, they do figure it out just fine. I am NOT suggesting to lower standards on dropping, but cigar holds are just not worth spending a lot of time on. Now there are times when mouth problems exsist, like mouthing or dropping, thats a whole other ballgame...


Kendall please tell what you think is inaccurate or " very uncalled for". Is it the fact that someone used the word SLIME that bothers you?

I would agree that describing someone or something as "SLIME"is insulting and disgusting. However it wasn't me that used that disgusting, slanderous term. It was Evan. He tends to get that way anytime someone disagrees with him or points out some truths that he doesn't want potential customers to know about.

Im also confused by the context of the rest of your post. You state that I should worry about my own answers.. Then you spend the rest of your post seemingly arguing in favor of the premise that having a battle with the dog over cigar holds wasn't worth your time. 
That is essentially the answer I gave. So which answer is it that you think I should worry about?

Congrats on your JH title, and good luck to you and your dogs in the future.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Hey guys....

An RTF moderator has already asked you guys to knock it off. A couple of you have chosen not to knock it off. I'm here to back the moderator. Knock it off. If you want to argue about the side topic, please take it private. 

Regarding cigar hold, here is my own personal thought. Dog training is as much art as it is science. The chemistry between dog and trainer is a unique combination. To me personally, a cigar hold is not attractive to me when my dog is doing it. To me personally, I will spend a little extra time trying to cure the cigar hold. I believe that for some dogs, this can become a gray area. Some dogs seem, to me, to be more "mouth aware" than others. Black and white is whether they are carrying the bumper or dropping it. Gray is if they are not dropping it, and they're carrying it, but they're a little loose and they wind up holding the bumper by the end.

It's personal preference. 

If one chooses to "cure" a cigar hold during FF, my opinion is that it takes some finnesse to get it right. If I had a dog with poor mouth awareness, who showed lots of promise on other areas, I may choose to move ahead and focus on the bigger picture. I personally would probably spend some time trying to create better mouth awareness first, and try to cure the hold that to me, is not attractive, before I chose to move ahead.

I do agree with Pete, Marc and others that in the end, it probably is not that big a deal and probably does work itself out in many cases. 

Here's a trick I learned from our own /paul - Gundog. It's a good one. I call it "hammer fetch". Hammer fetch is the idea of using a mini-sledge hammer or other object that is highly unbalanced. Merely grabbing the 12 inch handle at the 6 inch point does not lead to a good hold. I have found it to help create mouth awareness without my having to get overly involved. I can keep the session black and white, as the goal is to carry and not drop. IF the dog has loose mouth habits and tries to bobble the object, it is likely to fall. Then we can work on correcting the drop and getting a more solid hold. 

Again guys, knock off the bickering please. When a moderator asks for help, I ask that you pitch in. Don't disrespect her, and don't challenge her.

Thanks, Chris


----------

