# Interesting SRS number



## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

I was going over the entries at the SRS since Port Clinton. Reason I was looking was, while I was at a hunt test I was talking to a few guys about the SRS. They say that within the next few years the SRS will be a thing of the past. So I got to looking at why they would say that.

The entries I was looking at are the regular handlers of the SRS having run in at least 4 of the 6 qualifiers this year, all are very successful running it.

Chris Akin 41 Entries 4/6 --- 10.3 dogs per event
Scott Greer 55 Entries 6/6 --- 9.2 dogs per event
Bobby Wills 31 Entries 5/6 --- 6.2 dogs per event
J-Paul Jackson 46 Entries 5/6 --- 9.2 dogs per event
Lyle Steiman 65 Entries 5/6 --- 13 dogs per event
Clint Johnson 39 Entries 6/6 --- 6.5 dogs per event
Chris Jobman 24 Entries 5/6 --- 4.8 dogs per event

There were six qualifiers this year, starting with Port Clinton

Port Clinton in Aug. of 2008 had 84 Pro Entries 73% of the dogs were from these seven handlers
Fire Water - 59 Entries - 86% 
Grand Island - 41 Entries - 83%
Miami - 51 Entries - 66%
Huntsville - 75 Entries - 84%
Somerville - 74 Entries - 77%

384 Pro Entries - 301 from the seven handlers listed above = 78% 
47 dogs ran in the Finals - 44 were by the seven handlers listed. That's 94% 

Does kind of make you wonder what would happen if some of these guys would stop running the SRS.

I need to get back to work  I have been off way to long


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

I would like to try running it someday. But then again I am a long way from that level. 
I would have to say with all of those same guys running it, if they stopped it would as well.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

You still buy that SRS is not made of TV with the same old cast????? How much of a following would they have if the handlers were different each time?

Not knocking the dogs, handlers, or work, but it kind of rubs me as WWE like in many ways

Can't knock old JT for marketing.....of course his hunting invites are another story


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

As long as there is sponsor money flowing and TV "face time" to be had, those guys aren't going _anywhere_. :wink: If they do, someone else will step in and take their place.

Follow the money regards,

kg


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

OK, so the airtime, entries and trophies are dominated by those 7 handlers. To me this presents a "chicken or the egg" question. In other words, are those 7 the most successful because they represent such a large portion of the entries or do they represent such a large portion of the entries because they have basically run off all of the competition by being so good at this particular game? Yes, I do understand that there are plenty of people who could likely do very well who simply have no inclination to do so. I guess option 3 would be that it is basically fixed (at least in favor of those 7 regulars) and is basically like pro wrestling. I don't buy that.

It would be interesting for an unknown handler to show up at one of those events with a dominant dog (one of the top running FT dogs on the circuit, for example) under a fake name and see what would happen if an unknown handler had the best dog. I would like to think that person would have an opportunity to win.

I'm fairly neutral on the SRS in that I am neither overly enamored with it nor do I think it is THE DEVIL as some do.


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## Dekester (Jan 19, 2008)

you guys are funny!


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## Stephen Hooper (Sep 27, 2007)

Phillip, 

It happened in 2006. Free smoked um at the Crown!!


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## cspringer (Nov 6, 2008)

I dont think the top running FT dog in the country is just going to show up and dominate an SRS like you would think, maybe in a white coat setup but what about when they get put in a dog blind with handler in a layout blind and birds start droppin 10 feet in front of them to a couple hundred yards out? I'm figuring when the breaking birds start falling and their are three guns going off at the line the dog will be doing back flips in the blind and never even see the long marks.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

cspringer said:


> I dont think the top running FT dog in the country is just going to show up and dominate an SRS like you would think, maybe in a white coat setup but what about when they get put in a dog blind with handler in a layout blind and birds start droppin 10 feet in front of them to a couple hundred yards out? I'm figuring when the breaking birds start falling and their are three guns going off at the line the dog will be doing back flips in the blind and never even see the long marks.


Where is that dead horse emoticon?

SM


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

cspringer said:


> I dont think the top running FT dog in the country is just going to show up and dominate an SRS like you would think, maybe in a white coat setup but what about when they get put in a dog blind with handler in a layout blind and birds start droppin 10 feet in front of them to a couple hundred yards out? I'm figuring when the breaking birds start falling and their are three guns going off at the line the dog will be doing back flips in the blind and never even see the long marks.


Well, that is certainly what Farmer & Jack did in their first attempt...and if I'm not mistaken Jack was QAA (as quite a few SRS dogs are), but not a FC/AFC.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Where is that dead horse emoticon?
> 
> SM


 
Comeon Shayne, it is the guys first post after all, at least on rtf, I am sure he is in the thousands over on water dog


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

cspringer said:


> I dont think the top running FT dog in the country is just going to show up and dominate an SRS like you would think, maybe in a white coat setup but what about when they get put in a dog blind with handler in a layout blind and birds start droppin 10 feet in front of them to a couple hundred yards out? I'm figuring when the breaking birds start falling and their are three guns going off at the line the dog will be doing back flips in the blind and never even see the long marks.


Funny guy here. Guess they're (SRS Dogs.) are "The Greatest Retrievers" out there too? Food for thought. Mr. John Caire has 2 dogs better than his own Jack in Tia & Pearl IMO, and Jack just won. I'm certainly not knocking Jack @ all, I'm just saying what most, if not all would.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

cspringer said:


> I dont think the top running FT dog in the country is just going to show up and dominate an SRS like you would think, maybe in a white coat setup but what about when they get put in a dog blind with handler in a layout blind and birds start droppin 10 feet in front of them to a couple hundred yards out? I'm figuring when the breaking birds start falling and their are three guns going off at the line the dog will be doing back flips in the blind and never even see the long marks.


OH CHEEZE AND CRACKERS!


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Funny guy here. Guess they're (SRS Dogs.) are "The Greatest Retrievers" out there too? Food for thought. Mr. John Caire has 2 dogs better than his own Jack in Tia & Pearl IMO, and Jack just won. I'm certainly not knocking Jack @ all, I'm just saying what most, if not all would.


I judged some of those successful hot shot SRS dogs in a FT Qualifying in 07 and I don't think any of them made it to the second series.

Lets don't forget that this is made for TV and not the real world.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

You do make an excellent point. Actually points.


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## duke7581 (Jan 17, 2008)

Well i see only one way to settle this, we need a bunch of FT people to run there dogs at all the SRS events and that should cut down on the number of dogs from certain handlers or not. Just having fun here. lol


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

I'm pretty sure that I don't care much about it and apparently from the looks of Bill's numbers I'm not the only one that doesn't.
Sorry you won't be at the grand Bill and hope you are doing well, I was hoping to talk Chris into drawing my test after seeing the one she did for yours in Madison.


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## Eric West (Jan 17, 2008)

To much emphasis is put on the Pro handlers.... its about the dogs.... now if Chris Akin and J Paul were to box ok!!! I like watching dogs work...if the SRS has the sponsors there will be folks running. It is good TV!!!!  I love running hunt test andI just ran Music City hunt test but that would make for some boring TV. SRS is a good thing for the retriever world...wish i would have thought of it! Hope it is here for good!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Like someone posted above Mike Pierce came in with Free and took names at the crown. He was the underdog. Just one question why would anyone have problems with SRS. I think it helps the sport in FT and HT. Is this something that only HT people support because I see a lot of negative comments about SRS. What I don't understand is why wouldn't someone with a great dog in the FT game not want to play the SRS game. They could win a lot of money and gain sponsors.


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## Eric West (Jan 17, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> Like someone posted above Mike Pierce came in with Free and took names at the crown. He was the underdog. Just one question why would anyone have problems with SRS. I think it helps the sport in FT and HT. Is this something that only HT people support because I see a lot of negative comments about SRS. What I don't understand is why wouldn't someone with a great dog in the FT game not want to play the SRS game. They could win a lot of money and gain sponsors.


Right on Kim!!! Enjoyed the Hunt test it was a great time!! Picked up our first 2 finished passes!!


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Like someone posted above Mike Pierce came in with Free and took names at the crown. He was the underdog. Just one question why would anyone have problems with SRS. I think it helps the sport in FT and HT. Is this something that only HT people support because I see a lot of negative comments about SRS. What I don't understand is why wouldn't someone with a great dog in the FT game not want to play the SRS game. They could win a lot of money and gain sponsors.


Kim, do you know where Free was before he went to Mike Pierce?

kg


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Keith, I'm not sure but I do know that most of the dogs that do good in the SRS game are dogs that got washed out of FTs and went to a HT Pros. Whats the point, how many dogs at the top of the FT game started out with the same trainer.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Same old arguments. I've run both SRS and HT. Both are good. Anything we as dog people get to do with our hounds is a bonus in life. Nobody has had a gun held to their head and been forced to run an SRS event. Play which ever game you prefer, but there's no reason to bash any of them. I listened to the rubber duck put down the other day and told the person, until you pay your fees and take a dog to the line, drop it. I love picking up ducks as much as anyone but if you want to see if your dog is a pin point marker, throw a bird with little smell and let 'em mark it. No nose in the air 50 yards out and right to it. And this my FT dog is better than your HT dog. BS. Each has it's place. Same argument as in the horse business. Walking horses do nothing for me but they have a place in the horse games and demand big dollars for their services. Just take your dog to the line and enjoy which ever game you choose to play.


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## roger (May 5, 2004)

Like Shayne stated in a earlier post, we have beat this dead horse before, that being of Hunt test VS. white coat, it reminds me of guys bickering Chevy Vs. Ford, John Deere
VS International, my dad can whip your dad ect... The bottom line, in my opinion, after running a few SRS events, SRS is great for all the retriever games. So many times I've left the house for a hunt test, or training, and I'm asked "what is you do with those dogs all the time"? After explaining our routine, usually the reply I get is," you mean like they run on ESPN(great outdoor games) or Versus. I have to believe, many who have witnessed these shows, if not tried a local hunt test due to them maybe, at the least purchased a retriever due to the publicity. Also, when at the SRS events, I never hear the pros mentioning anything about comparing there dogs to field trial dog, if anything, I know alot of it has to do with the dogs owners wanting their dogs entered in these events, because for the pros it's a struggle to train one week for a SRS event, and turn right around and prepare for a Grand the following week.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Actually, the more different faces that are in the SRS the better off the SRS is. TV sponsors want the biggest market to see their advertisements. You have to remember it doesn't make for good TV if the same guy always wins. There needs to be a mix. That was one of the problems with this weekend. Lyle Steinman had 3 of the top 4 and missed the 4th spot by one point. I tell you this with judges like at the Crown everyone should want to come run. You talk about a fun time and great test. One suggestion if you want to run you best add cameras and camera blinds in the field when training they can create some tremendous suction. 

Alot of people think it is rigged or say that so they don't have to go play. My thinking is this: SRS=dogs on TV which results in a greater interest in our sport. The greater interest=more companies working toward developing products for me to use. 

Last thought, the SRS gets blasted from some FT people. This weekend the series included a Derby double with double retired guns. A huge AA water blind. A short land triple. A quad and poison bird blind with dog stand, layout blinds and whole lot of shooting and calling. And then finally, a white coat water triple with a retired gun middle punch bird that was TOUGH. So 3 out of 5 were FT set ups.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

My original post was not to bash the SRS. Heck I enjoy it and hope to run some more of the events this year. My reasoning for the post was to see why the two guys I was talking to at an HRC event would make the comment about the SRS being a thing of the past in a few years. After I did some investigating I thought the numbers were interesting and that is the reason I posted them.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Bill Davis said:


> My original post was not to bash the SRS. Heck I enjoy it and hope to run some more of the events this year. My reasoning for the post was to see why the two guys I was talking to at an HRC event would make the comment about the SRS being a thing of the past in a few years. After I did some investigating I thought the numbers were interesting and that is the reason I posted them.


To survive they need a more varied group not just the same old crew. Most people are shying away because it is tough to beat Lyle with 10 plus dogs that are competetive. The addition of the am side has not taken off like it was planned. I figured you would have more am handlers show up when they were not running against the pros. Next year am entry fees are being lowered. This might help. There are some great dogs handled by ams and they are fun to watch.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

My dogs better than your dog


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I have nothing against the SRS but one thing I think would help them is to have a set standard for their judges. I know last year in Nebraska their was controversy over a judge that not only was his pro running but his dog was running also. That judge did the right thing and stepped down. However, the SRS decided to defend the decision with something like any monkey can judge an SRS and then they made a video defending their judges.

Although, since I know this judge I am sure he would have been fair, the reality is it looks bad for the event.

Once again nothing against the SRS, to each his own.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Willow Oaks Retrievers said:


> You have to remember it doesn't make for good TV if the same guy always wins.


Indeed...but that will change....just keep watching....;-)

Interesting that if ANYONE says ANYTHING that does 100% support the SRS, folks consider it "blasting" or "flaming" SRS. There is NO room for a differing opinion, thought, or even information that is not PRO SRS (much less disagreement), with the sycophants of the SRS.

I mentioned Mike Pierce's dog "Free" above because "Free" is an all-age washout that came from Chris Ledford's truck. "Free" couldn't hack it in field trials but is obviously flourishing in the SRS game. Good for him. Good for Mike...._seriously_....anything that depicts the sport of retrievers in a positive light is a GOOD thing for the sport of dogs overall.

kg


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

K G said:


> Indeed...but that will change....just keep watching....;-)
> 
> Interesting that if ANYONE says ANYTHING that does 100% support the SRS, folks consider it "blasting" or "flaming" SRS. There is NO room for a differing opinion, thought, or even information that is not PRO SRS (much less disagreement), with the sycophants of the SRS.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah well other than using rubber ducks when it is on tv and real ducks when it is not....sure it is a good thing

Bad precedence regards


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

It's a double-edged sword, Corey. SRS has as good a chance, if not better (due to TV), to introducing folks to the sport of competitive dogs. No, plastic is not a good precedent, but people will look for ways to get their dogs trained. When they find out the chances of them actually getting into an SRS competition (much less winning) are slim to none, they'll hopefully look for folks that are connected to AKC, HRC, or NAHRA clubs that will encourage them, connect them to training groups or pros, and get them started in competitive training. Hopefully they'll be hunters, but if they're not, at least we can connect with them through the "wildlife conservation" angle.

While setting up the water blind for the Qual at our trial this past weekend, I saw a guy in his Skeeter bass boat about 20 yds off a point where the blind would be planted. I asked if he was catching anything; he said "No, just killing time." He then asked me what we were doing; I told him in basic terms what was going on and he said "Yeah...I've seen that on TV." I said "Yeah.....hope your luck improves today." He said "Thanks" and trolled on out of the test.... I wasn't going to try to educate him to the differences; he was busy and so was I.

kg


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I like all the games that we play to improve our dogs. If it's HT, FT or SRS, what difference does it matter. 

By the way Keith I think most of the dogs at the top of the SRS game are FT washouts. 

One thing you are missing is this game is for the HT Pro's. They get noticed on TV and this brings a lot of business to them. This is the reason they will keep coming, it doesn't matter if they win or lose if they get TV time. You know the top Pro's in FT don't care because they already have all of the business they need, but if some of the young FT Pro's would play the game it would help them. It's great free advertising other than the entry.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

I understand and agree with your first two paragraphs, Kim.

That SRS is a game for primarily HT pros is not lost on me, Kim. Every "sport" needs its "rockstars" I suppose. As I've said since day 1 about SRS, as long as there are sponsors, this "made-for-TV" venue will keep on keepin' on.

My single beef about it is "it ain't real life," and that covers a BROAD area of concern....I'll just leave it at that.....;-) 

kg


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> To survive they need a more varied group not just the same old crew. Most people are shying away because it is tough to beat Lyle with 10 plus dogs that are competetive. The addition of the am side has not taken off like it was planned. I figured you would have more am handlers show up when they were not running against the pros. Next year am entry fees are being lowered. This might help. There are some great dogs handled by ams and they are fun to watch


Do most people shy away from field trials because big time pro's come with alot of good dogs.

I don't think anyone is shying away from anything. Hell I don't know what SRS is nevermind finding one to compete in.


I think if anything ,,,few people run it because they never heard of it or can't travel to whatever part of the country its held.

Where do you get a rule book.?

Are they an EE event?

They need to send out mailers or are they afraid of competition.

Pete


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

K G said:


> He said "Thanks" and trolled on out of the test....


KG, you coulda "trolled back" by asking when they were gonna have a _*British*_ SRS down in Tennessee...

Just Atkinsoning;-)

MG


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

crackerd said:


> KG, you coulda "trolled back" by asking when they were gonna have a _*British*_ SRS down in Tennessee...
> 
> Just Atkinsoning;-)
> 
> MG


MG, I'm running a qual wearing a white coat this weekend the day after I judge a derby. Let's find some way for you to bust on me about that Monday morning. I'll do something funny over the course of a few days....funny to some anyhow.

See you in the funny papers... Chris


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

K G said:


> I understand and agree with your first two paragraphs, Kim.
> 
> That SRS is a game for primarily HT pros is not lost on me, Kim. Every "sport" needs its "rockstars" I suppose. As I've said since day 1 about SRS, as long as there are sponsors, this "made-for-TV" venue will keep on keepin' on.
> 
> ...


Is the SRS having sponsors an issue with you? If so why would them having sponsors be any different than HRC or the Master National having sponsors the support and promote the events and the sport in general?

From looking at the websites....................

SRS is sponsored by Avery Outdoors, Creatvie Answer, Dogtra, Ducks Unlimited, Eukanuba, Mountaintop Custom Kennels, Pro Drive, Zink Calls and Splashdogs.

HRC is sponsored by Purina, Avery Sporting Dog, K9 Advantix, Delta Waterfowl, Tri Tronics, Gunners Up and Retiever Specialties.

Master National is sponsored by Purina, Tri Tronics, Iams, Avery Outdoors, Working Retriever Central and Dogtra.

Everyone is going to have their likes and dislikes of every game, but why knock it if it's good for he overall. I know of a handfull of people who got involved in the hunt test game after first seeing "it" on SRS television show. Some of those have moved on into Quals. Obviously the TV exposure is good for the overall game, I just wish that the Grand and Master National could get some TV exposure to add to it.


***By the way, if they are reading this I'd like to thank all the companies who sponsor and support any part of the retriever games that we all play and love.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i can honestly say it has opened properties for training to me. i have had several landowners say"you mean like i saw on ESPN?" when i reply yes, they say "go right ahead"!-Paul


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*I agree that all venues are good for dogs! I myself have competed in 4 different "retriever venues." I truly believe they are all good advertisement for our different sports. Personally I have found there are wonderful people and great dog people in every venue. Truly the proudest I am of my dogs is when my kids and I are out hunting and they make a great retrieve or run a wonderful blind! 

Good Dog Folk Regards,

Aaron*


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> MG, I'm running a qual wearing a white coat this weekend the day after I judge a derby. Let's find some way for you to bust on me about that Monday morning.


Ain't bustin' on you, just trying out humour spelled with a "u" near the end. And good luck judging _and_ running this weekend. Viva la difference, as they say over there, old man. The IWS that came second in the qual and QAA'd last weekend was preceded in the running order by a British dog of about 15 mos. somehow with _moi_ name as O/H in the catalog. It's all good. Including the Peachy Paterno at the Berkey Creamery, eh?

MG


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

It sure appears that a lot FT guys have to bash everything that's not FTs. I know all the FT dogs are solid but you guys are kidding yourself if you think an fc/afc will waltz in and start dominating SRS. Yea you might smoke the FT series but it's only part of the game and will take some serious training to do both. Are they capable, sure the are. Will the FT guys expand their training to compete, doubtful. I understand why but don't discount the quality of the dogs or Chris/ Lyle, because they've figured out a way to train for both and have some amazing dogs. Oh and there have been SRS dogs that never won a SRS or Crown but did get their FC or AFC, see Alex Washburn's stable. I don't know what that proves other than the standards aren't as far off as some of the FT crews believe.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

hawgsalot said:


> It sure appears that a lot FT guys have to bash everything that's not FTs.


Go check out post #30, hawg...

kg


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> My single beef about it is "it ain't real life," and that covers a BROAD area of concern


I guess that's a FT joke, because HT people say the same thing about FT. FT people say the same thing about HT. Real life here in TN would be sitting in a blind all day and rubbing your dogs head because you are not going to see ducks anyway.



> Are they an EE event?


They used to be and then decided that could make more money by taking their on line entries themselves.



> Where do you get a rule book.?


You don't need rules. Dog that runs straight line wins. Dogs that have the fewest whistles win. That's about it. They have their own web site with everything listed.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

hawgsalot said:


> It sure appears that a lot FT guys have to bash everything that's not FTs. I know all the FT dogs are solid but you guys are kidding yourself if you think an fc/afc will waltz in and start dominating SRS. Yea you might smoke the FT series but it's only part of the game and will take some serious training to do both. Are they capable, sure the are. Will the FT guys expand their training to compete, doubtful. I understand why but don't discount the quality of the dogs or Chris/ Lyle, because they've figured out a way to train for both and have some amazing dogs. Oh and there have been SRS dogs that never won a SRS or Crown but did get their FC or AFC, see Alex Washburn's stable. I don't know what that proves other than the standards aren't as far off as some of the FT crews believe.


Can I ask your experience with Field trials? SRS? Hunt tests? Have you trained with any of the folks mentioned in this thread? Any "top" field trial pros? 

Not good bad or otherwise, just trying to get where you are coming from?


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Keith when did you become only a FT guy? The last time I checked you are Master HT Judge. How can someone interrupted your post as being only a FT guy.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I guess that's a FT joke, because HT people say the same thing about FT. FT people say the same thing about HT. Real life here in TN would be sitting in a blind all day and rubbing your dogs head because you are not going to see ducks anyway.


They kill *real* birds in HTs, Kim...and in FTs...I don't think you'd go "rubber duck huntin'," would you?

;-)

kg

Who interrupted my post????? And I'm not, and have never been, a "FT only" guy...

"Don't need rules..." That's my _favorite_ comment yet!!! :smile:


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

I saw your post KG but my observation still holds true. Bottom line is the SRS guys would love for the FTs to come play a few weekends a year. The SRS's are close enough for most to make a little weekend trip. I think it would be great for the retrieving game but it seems the FT community hasn't embraced the idea of playing the mixed game. I don't know why but I wish we could have a best of the best in both HT and FT square off head to head like the nationals. It would be a great venue that would have immense value to our sport, especially on TV. I think that's the goal just one side won't play.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I could tell you why for us;

1 - Could be running trial instead
2 - Dogs don't know what dokkens are. Don't own one.
3- Don't want to spend time on HT setups
4 - Don't want to handle so much on marks. 
5- No desire to prove anything about FT, HT, or SRS dogs.


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

achiro said:


> Can I ask your experience with Field trials? SRS? Hunt tests? Have you trained with any of the folks mentioned in this thread? Any "top" field trial pros?
> 
> Not good bad or otherwise, just trying to get where you are coming from?



Oh I'm no expert but have trained side by side with Akin and played the HT game for several years in the past. Akin now has my new pup, I just don't have the time and his training program very very good. That being said I've watched him train a lot lately and they run very big setups with a truck full of dogs. They also mix in all the HT stuff but distance, complexity and concepts are covered early and often. I haven't trained with a FT trainer and that's exactly why the SRS would be so interesting if they would play. I've been to a few field trials and was impressed with the talent, nothing bad to say at all about the FT game. SRS would also open doors for new clients and players to the FTs. It seems to be a no brainer but again that's from a HT/SRS perspective and that's just my opine.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

KG-explain "ain't real life". (This should be interesting.)


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I've ran an SRS event before as an amature competing against those same Pro's. Didn't do too bad. Ended up in the mid 50's out of over a 100 dogs. Funny thing is that my dog has only ran HT's before and we smoked a field trial setup. We did absolutely horrible on the first series which was a typical HT setup and something my dog should have been able to do with his eyes closed. 

My first real exposure to retrievers was watching SRS back in 2002. After watching it back then I had to get a dog. I did as much research as I could about dogs and pedigrees and trainers. I ended up getting a pup from a litter whose sire came in 4th over all back in 02. I'll probably run in SRS again because I like the variety of setups. Am I a big fan of SRS as a whole? Not really. I do think though, that SRS brings a lot of new people into the sport. I am a good example of that. My first dog I ran HT's and SRS. I have a pup on the way and will train to run FT's with him. Overall I think SRS is another venue that helps to bring new people in the sporting dog world. 

If there is a downfall to SRS it is that so few Pro's dominate every event. I think that turns away a lot of people who may want to compete. The organizers need to find a way to make it easier for amateurs to enter and compete. I also think the Pro's need to be limited as to the number of dogs they can enter. That way other Pro's may be more inclined to enter. 

I would also love to see some of the top FT dogs and Pro's enter to ratchet up the competition levels. I was there when Danny Farmer came in with ?Jack and pretty much cleaned everyone's clock. It would be interesting to see some other top FT Pro's come in a compete.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

hawgsalot said:


> Oh I'm no expert but have trained side by side with Akin and played the HT game for several years in the past. Akin now has my new pup, I just don't have the time and his training program very very good. That being said I've watched him train a lot lately and they run very big setups with a truck full of dogs. They also mix in all the HT stuff but distance, complexity and concepts are covered early and often. I haven't trained with a FT trainer and that's exactly why the SRS would be so interesting if they would play. I've been to a few field trials and was impressed with the talent, nothing bad to say at all about the FT game. SRS would also open doors for new clients and players to the FTs. It seems to be a no brainer but again that's from a HT/SRS perspective and that's just my opine.


OK first of all, there was a venue similar to what you want a few years ago, can't remember the exact name but it was something like the world retriever championship or something. There were both field trial dogs and hunt test dogs and the tests were to be both HT and FT set ups(every other one as I recall). Going in many of the HT fans were just sure that the crazy field trial dogs would break immediately with the in your face stuff in the HT setups. Anyway, look it up and see how it went. 

Second there are some things that are done in SRS that, if trained for, could potentially cause some issues in field trials. Not major but enough to put a glitch in things(handling on marks)
I have no issue with SRS and may even try my hand if the right dog comes along but I always find it funny how defensive folks get about this stuff and how the SRS guys are so quick to downplay the FT dogs while in the same breath whining about how FT folks think they are too good or whatnot. The truth is 90% of the FT people have never even given a thought to it and certainly know enough to know that a great dog is a great dog.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

It's amazing to me how many of us have already forgotten the WRC. Ten series - five HT and five FT. For me that venue answered some questions. Most notably that FT dogs were more likely to complete an HT setup, than HT dogs were to complete an FT test.

And I believe Alex Washburn won with a dog she runs SRS and FTs with. :?

Personally, I like SRS and think it has a niche. I wish it well. I consider it a step above HTs and a step below FTs. And that is the same place I put the SRS trainers/handlers.

Generally speaking, of course.


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

Kevin,

That would be AFC HRCH "Ready". HRCH title, SRS placements, AFC, 1 point shy of his FC. A good dog that should be honored-rubber duck, real duck, hen phesant or pick-up-sticks.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

hawgsalot said:


> I saw your post KG but my observation still holds true. Bottom line is the SRS guys would love for the FTs to come play a few weekends a year.


This is my biggest problem. They say they "Want the big FT pros" but they honestly want none of them. They'd (Big FT Pros.) literally walk the dog on them (SRS Guys.). There's nothing to prove in that arena for FT pros. The Open is really where The Best Dogs & Handlers play. If they (SRS Guys.) would just be fine with what they do it would be 1 thing. Besides, most "FT Clients" aren't interested and their pros have enough deadlines/demands as it is.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i was one of the judges at the second (and last) WRC.

i'd like to point out that while a FTtrained dog won, the 2nd and 3rd place dogs were HT dogs. -and #2 wasn't so far behind the winner. 2 of the FT favorites didn't look very good that week.

it was a lot of fun to judge, and i wish it was still around. the dogs that placed were very versatile and under control.-Paul


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

The WRC only ran twice correct??

Angie


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

paul young said:


> i was one of the judges at the second (and last) WRC.
> 
> i'd like to point out that while a FTtrained dog won, the 2nd and 3rd place dogs were HT dogs. -and #2 wasn't so far behind the winner. 2 of the FT favorites didn't look very good that week.
> 
> it was a lot of fun to judge, and i wish it was still around. the dogs that placed were very versatile and under control.-Paul


Thanks for posting that Paul!
Any given day (weekend)!!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> They kill *real* birds in HTs, Kim...and in FTs...I don't think you'd go "rubber duck huntin'," would you?


KG, we can't in the HT or FT game argue that we are running real world events. How many times duck hunting did you see someone out in the field with white coats throwing a bird. How many times duck hunting did you see someone shoot your duck for you out in the field and you send your dog. How many times do we go hunting and shoot and kill a triple from the line and sometimes 150 yards away. Don't get me wrong HT are as close as we can get to the real thing but it's still a long way from being real. FT's do show the best dogs in the American breed but it's not real world hunting. So using a rubber duck to keep PETA from coming down on the dog game is a good idea.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

that is correct Angie. where were you?-Paul


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

It seems to me one of the absurdities in this discussion is, imho, very good dog trainers are very good dog trainers. In other words, the way I see it, the best FT trainers could successfully train for SRS/HTs if they wanted to, and visa versa, the best HT/SRS trainers could successfully train for FTs if they wanted to. There are any number of reasons they chose the roads they chose, but very good dog trainers are very good dog trainers. End of story.

On another note, what is the background of "Dusty" (FC Taylorlab's Downtown Dusty Brown)? I know he has played with the SRS folks, like on Team Waterdog. And I also know his Derby record. Did he start in HTs and/or SRS, or has he been FTs from the beginning?


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> So using a rubber duck to keep PETA from coming down on the dog game is a good idea.


BULL****! **** PETA!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

paul young said:


> that is correct Angie. where were you?-Paul


I was watching from the sidelines and it was wonderful!!!

I think it was forgotten, unfortunately because, "it" (WRC) only happened twice... To address Kevins post..

The SRS brings So many, *So many* new people to our sport. Like it, hate it or have no feeling either way...

The SRS is what it is,,, Be thankful for it!!!! I am!!! ;-)

Angie


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

achiro, I'm only talking on TV. Did you see the new rules, I hope everyone votes against them because we can't give into what PETA wants. I'm just say-in if it's on TV and they use Rubber Ducks then so be it.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

achiro said:


> BULL****! **** PETA!


I agree, folks are really scared of the big boogie man, that being PETA.

What the heck can PETA do?

They've already threatened every national advertiser, with little success. Don't all those outdoor channels show hunting kill shots and fishing?

I'm also sure they have gone after the AKC on numerous issues, with little success.

Where they have success is in having the average pet owner scared of thier name!

Don't be afraid of PETA or they have won. Instead stand up to them if you ever have the opportunity!

Will the next season's DU TV shows have them shooting rubber ducks?


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Your right booty, but I'm a member of the ******* PETA Club. People eating Tasty Animals.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

hawgsalot said:


> I saw your post KG but my observation still holds true. Bottom line is the SRS guys would love for the FTs to come play a few weekends a year. The SRS's are close enough for most to make a little weekend trip. I think it would be great for the retrieving game but it seems the FT community hasn't embraced the idea of playing the mixed game. I don't know why but I wish we could have a best of the best in both HT and FT square off head to head like the nationals. It would be a great venue that would have immense value to our sport, especially on TV. I think that's the goal just one side won't play.


Hawg, when you've been around a field trial pro a little while, you'll understand why FT pros aren't interested in the SRS in the same way the "SRS Pro Staff" is. You make it sound like FT pros "won't play" because they're afraid of the competition. See Charlotte Kaiser's post below and you'll see why most of them won't...that, and the post that FT pros have nothing to prove. They're too busy creating FC/AFCs and qualifying for National Championship stakes with the dogs that can sire and whelp pups for folks running all dog events.



cakaiser said:


> I could tell you why for us;
> 
> 1 - Could be running trial instead
> 2 - Dogs don't know what dokkens are. Don't own one.
> ...





hawgsalot said:


> SRS would also open doors for new clients and players to the FTs. It seems to be a no brainer but again that's from a HT/SRS perspective and that's just my opine.


I don't much think SRS is going to help grow FT entries, simply because the way you get to play the game is so different. SRS has ONE level of competition; FTs (and HTs) have several. There's also the concept of training to win "money"....



MIDTNGRNHEAD said:


> KG-explain "ain't real life". (This should be interesting.)


Did that in post #47....



kimsmith said:


> KG, we can't in the HT or FT game argue that we are running real world events. How many times duck hunting did you see someone out in the field with white coats throwing a bird. How many times duck hunting did you see someone shoot your duck for you out in the field and you send your dog. How many times do we go hunting and shoot and kill a triple from the line and sometimes 150 yards away. Don't get me wrong HT are as close as we can get to the real thing but it's still a long way from being real. FT's do show the best dogs in the American breed but it's not real world hunting. So using a rubber duck to keep PETA from coming down on the dog game is a good idea.


In the truest sense, neither FTs or HTs resemble hunting. FTs used to run at the same distances HTs run at now. FT distances grew because the dogs got better, the training got better, and judges needed more ways to find a "winner," not just a finisher. White coats were added for the same reason (to give the dog a reference point at a longer distance). Using a rubber duck is NOT a good idea if PETA thinks ALL dog games could get along with rubber ducks if SRS can... 



kimsmith said:


> achiro, I'm only talking on TV. Did you see the new rules, I hope everyone votes against them because we can't give into what PETA wants. I'm just say-in if it's on TV and they use Rubber Ducks then so be it.


Which rules are you talking about...the new FT proposals? I thought you were talking about the SRS NOT having rules...

SRS is going to use rubber ducks to be on TV; TV is more important than sending the wrong message to PETA (that dog games can exist with rubber ducks). Let's just not make the SRS into more than it's been from the beginning: a made-for-TV game that is sponsor and money driven, nothing more, nothing less. I don't think SRS is a negative for HTs and FTs, but it's a different KIND of competition that is MADE FOR TV. The producers have found a way to make it TV-friendly, which is a good thing. Let's just leave it at that.

kg


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Troy B said:


> Is the SRS having sponsors an issue with you? If so why would them having sponsors be any different than HRC or the Master National having sponsors the support and promote the events and the sport in general?
> 
> From looking at the websites....................
> 
> ...


KG, since you brought up the sponsor/advertisors again I'm curious your thoughts on this. How does it differ?

Going another direction, there have been "money" hunts in pointing dogs and coonhounds as long as there's been ribbons - whats the difference between those and SRS aside from SRS is on TV. 

Aside from the rubber ducks, I can go either way - don't see it as a big deal, PETA not as powerfull as some think, what is so wrong with it? It brings people and attention to the retriever game, which can only help our game as a whole.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

KG-the rubber duck issue is crazy. Have you dogs ever picked up a bumper of any kind whether duck shaped or not? Does everybody in every venue not train with bumpers at some point or at least some of the time? Throw something with little to no smell and let those hounds mark it and go get it. Not smell it 50 yds away and ride the wind to the bird. I love picking up ducks in tests, and in the field. I hunt all my dogs extensively. But it's pretty impressive to see dogs going and getting 200, 300, 400 yard marks when its a "rubber duck". Do you honestly think a dog hears a pop and sees a flash of color at 400 yards and says that's one of those freaking rubber ducks. Be realistic.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

MIDTNGRNHEAD said:


> KG-the rubber duck issue is crazy. Have you dogs ever picked up a bumper of any kind whether duck shaped or not? Does everybody in every venue not train with bumpers at some point or at least some of the time? Throw something with little to no smell and let those hounds mark it and go get it. Not smell it 50 yds away and ride the wind to the bird. I love picking up ducks in tests, and in the field. I hunt all my dogs extensively. But it's pretty impressive to see dogs going and getting 200, 300, 400 yard marks when its a "rubber duck". Do you honestly think a dog hears a pop and sees a flash of color at 400 yards and says that's one of those freaking rubber ducks. Be realistic.


I'm having a lot of trouble imagining that you aren't getting the whole rubber duck thing. 
Let's break it down- you are standing there at the water cooler and some young and impressionable lovely sees the pictures of your dog retreiving dead waterfowl on your desk. You proudly announce that your highly trained retriever is a new Master Hunter. See innocently says that she watched an episode of SRS on the tube Sunday last and there weren't any poor helpless little mammals that had to die for the entertainment of the participants and wants to know why your bloodthirsty ass can't find a way to entertain hishimself without causing irreparable damage to innocent waterfowl.

Anxiously awaiting your reply regards

Bubba


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Bubba said:


> I'm having a lot of trouble imagining that you aren't getting the whole rubber duck thing.
> Let's break it down- you are standing there at the water cooler and some young and impressionable lovely sees the pictures of your dog retreiving dead waterfowl on your desk. You proudly announce that your highly trained retriever is a new Master Hunter. See innocently says that she watched an episode of SRS on the tube Sunday last and there weren't any poor helpless little mammals that had to die for the entertainment of the participants and wants to know why your bloodthirsty ass can't find a way to entertain hishimself without causing irreparable damage to innocent waterfowl.
> 
> Anxiously awaiting your reply regards
> ...


*Rubber Ducky, you're the one. 
You make bath time lots of fun 
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you. 
Rubber Ducky, joys of joys 
When I squeak you, you make noise 
Rubber Ducky, you're my very best friend, it's true! 

Everyday when I make my way to the tubby 
I find a little fella who' cute, yellow, and chubby. 
(rub-a-dub-a-dubby) 

Rubber Ducky you're so fine 
And I'm lucky that you're mine 
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you. 

Everyday when I make my way to the tubby 
I find a little fella who's cute, yellow, and chubby. 
(rub-a-dub-a-dubby) 

Rubber Ducky, you're so fine 
And I'm glad that you're mine 
Rubber Ducky I'm awfully fond of... 
Rubber Ducky I'd like a whole pond of . . . 
Rubber Ducky I'm awfully fond of you.*
you scored stud


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

I think the SRS is awesome.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> SRS is going to use rubber ducks to be on TV; TV is more important than sending the wrong message to PETA (that dog games can exist with rubber ducks).


KG you make a good point and I never thought about it that way. One thing if they used Ducks would it make a difference to the FT community? 
When I was talking about the new rules, I was talking about the 3 AKC rules that are being voted on.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Bubba-I have the picture on my desk. I do understand. I do tell my clients who ask what I do, whether about HT or hunting. I just don't think its a big issue to use something other than real ducks in training or in certain venues. The bottom line is you don't have to play the game if you don't want to.


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

FT , HT , AKC , UKC , what does it matter as long as you enjoy what your doing with your dog . I have a CHARITY HT where we give all the money to help sick children , and JT and the SRS furnished over 150 SRS birds for the event . We had some children with their parents attend , im not saying that a dead duck carries any type of people killing desease . But it was a lot easier on us , no questions and did not have to worry about nasty birds at the end of the day .

I have trained with J.Paul Jackson , he is one of my friends . At this time (I) dont have a dog ready to run the SRS , BUT i hope to have one ready for the next one . Will i win ? who knows , will i play the game ? yes , will i stray away from FT/HT ? NO

The door swings BOTH ways , they are invited to play the FT/HT games and they do , i have run with most of them . And we are free to step up and give their game a try . I will give you a tip ( it takes a very talented animal) to play the (rubber ducky) game .

Peace to all , there are way too many real problems to try and fix ! 

Alan Sandifer


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

What ever happened to Stacey West?

At one time I assumed he was a supporting member of the SRS and all that they did.

I haven't seen his name mentioned for a while.

It would be interesting to hear his take on the whole thing.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Copiah Creek said:


> I will give you a tip ( it takes a very talented animal) to play the (rubber ducky) game .


I'll try to remember that the next time I see a dog cleanly pick up a Quad in the first series of an all-age stake when he/she has to run over a mile total, to and from all the (real) birds....;-)

kg


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

I posted on the 'congratulations to Steinman' thread the other day...

I do believe that more names in the top ten would draw more participation, and potentially viewers, etc...

but in order for that to happen, rules need to be put in to limit the number of dogs a guy can run.

Steinman took 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th

Akin took 4th, and 7th

Johnson took 8th and 9th 

or something very close to that...


why bother running, and putting out the kind of $$$$ needed to attend and run, if you have a dog, or even two dogs, and somebody shows up with 15, all of which are considered 'favorites' from the get go.

it's like putting a horse in the Kentucky Derby when Bob Baffert has the other 11.....chances are you are not gonna beat him....and who would watch that?


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Shawn, I know what your trying to say, I came to the winners trial with two very good dogs in the puppy. This increased my odds of winning, but I failed as a handler which in turn could happen to anyone. So even though you have a few dogs in the running anything could happen.

If the dog is running perfect and the handler is doing their job, I would say more than likely you win.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Reading this thread only creates a more clear understanding of why the All Age stakes of a Field Trial are the most difficult, demanding, and clearly the pinnacle of Retriever Games..............

Why?

Because I don't care if someone enters 100 dogs or 1 dog...............

SHOW UP AND RUN YOUR DOG AND LET'S SEE WHICH IS THE DOG IS BEST!

And they compete using real birds which is the mere reason these retrievers exist. To retrieve game, not plastic.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

MIDTNGRNHEAD said:


> KG-the rubber duck issue is crazy. Have you dogs ever picked up a bumper of any kind whether duck shaped or not? Does everybody in every venue not train with bumpers at some point or at least some of the time? Throw something with little to no smell and let those hounds mark it and go get it. Not smell it 50 yds away and ride the wind to the bird. I love picking up ducks in tests, and in the field. I hunt all my dogs extensively. But it's pretty impressive to see dogs going and getting 200, 300, 400 yard marks when its a "rubber duck". Do you honestly think a dog hears a pop and sees a flash of color at 400 yards and says that's one of those freaking rubber ducks. Be realistic.


 
Ok I was not going to go into it but it still seems some people just don’t get how much of a problem it is for SRS to use rubber ducks on television. 
SRS is a very “successful” retriever venue and by successful I mean they are the biggest televised retriever event out there. Having what the general public sees as a great example of “the sport” using rubber ducks makes MANY if not all of the non dog running and non hunting crowd that watches it wonder why we have to kill poor little ducks to test our dogs in HT and FT’s. I cannot tell you how many new to the HT/FT games people I have heard ask why he have to kill some many ducks and do we at least eat them…. Using live killed birds is already an issue with a lot of non retriever folks. SRS gives these people something to use as a strong argument to other non retriever folks against our use of real birds. This is truly an issue like it or not.
Here in Florida we are not allowed to keep, import, or use live mallards without a special permit. Almost every HT we hold finds the person transporting our birds down from Georgia getting stopped and harassed at the agricultural check point as you enter the state. The problem is that mallards mate with our native Florida Mottled ducks and are wiping out our true population of Mottleds. State officials would not take a lot of swaying to ban ALL imports of ducks to the state. In fact they tried previously and HT/FT and tower shoots were granted an exemption and allowed to have a special permit to use live ducks. How much effort do you think it would take those opposed to using real birds to go to the fish and game commission and make an argument that we really do not need the exemption because there is a very viable (in their opinion) alternative to real birds as exhibited by SRS. Can you argue that SRS dogs are not well tested? Can you argue they are not well trained? Can you argue that they are not very successful with the use of rubber ducks? Even if you can argue these points you would be arguing to non retriever folks who have no understanding of what it take to train a retriever. IN this state as well as most the Fish and Game guys are not exactly your friends and I promise you your elected officials in the state governments are not, unless you happen to be in the majority and I hate to break it to you but we as retriever enthusiast are not the majority. We are far out gunned in terms of resources, money, and organization by the animal rights groups. It would be no problem for them to convince you vote casting grandmother, neighbor who has only gotten his meals form the grocery, or the little college girls that we are barbaric and the practice of killing ducks simply to test a dog must be stopped. Right or wrong, I bet that if I were an AR person I could put together a campaign that would flat out ban the importation and use of live ducks in the state of Florida. 
Now we come to the point of why does SRS use rubber ducks? It seems that they do not always use them, but they ALWAYS use them on television. Why is that? Why don’t they use them on a television station that shows every animal that is legal to hunt being shot and killed? I have even seen seal hunting on VS and elephant hunting, but SRS is forced to use rubber ducks? 
IMHO the benefits of SRS getting exposure for the retrieve sports is far out weiged by the negative impact that using rubber ducks WILL HAVE on the sports. We don’t need new people coming into the sport that feel that we don’t need real birds, an enemy within is a bad thing.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Ok I was not going to go into it but it still seems some people just don’t get how much of a problem it is for SRS to use rubber ducks on television.
> SRS is a very “successful” retriever venue and by successful I mean they are the biggest televised retriever event out there. Having what the general public sees as a great example of “the sport” using rubber ducks makes MANY if not all of the non dog running and non hunting crowd that watches it wonder why we have to kill poor little ducks to test our dogs in HT and FT’s. I cannot tell you how many new to the HT/FT games people I have heard ask why he have to kill some many ducks and do we at least eat them…. Using live killed birds is already an issue with a lot of non retriever folks. SRS gives these people something to use as a strong argument to other non retriever folks against our use of real birds. This is truly an issue like it or not.
> Here in Florida we are not allowed to keep, import, or use live mallards without a special permit. Almost every HT we hold finds the person transporting our birds down from Georgia getting stopped and harassed at the agricultural check point as you enter the state. The problem is that mallards mate with our native Florida Mottled ducks and are wiping out our true population of Mottleds. State officials would not take a lot of swaying to ban ALL imports of ducks to the state. In fact they tried previously and HT/FT and tower shoots were granted an exemption and allowed to have a special permit to use live ducks. How much effort do you think it would take those opposed to using real birds to go to the fish and game commission and make an argument that we really do not need the exemption because there is a very viable (in their opinion) alternative to real birds as exhibited by SRS. Can you argue that SRS dogs are not well tested? Can you argue they are not well trained? Can you argue that they are not very successful with the use of rubber ducks? Even if you can argue these points you would be arguing to non retriever folks who have no understanding of what it take to train a retriever. IN this state as well as most the Fish and Game guys are not exactly your friends and I promise you your elected officials in the state governments are not, unless you happen to be in the majority and I hate to break it to you but we as retriever enthusiast are not the majority. We are far out gunned in terms of resources, money, and organization by the animal rights groups. It would be no problem for them to convince you vote casting grandmother, neighbor who has only gotten his meals form the grocery, or the little college girls that we are barbaric and the practice of killing ducks simply to test a dog must be stopped. Right or wrong, I bet that if I were an AR person I could put together a campaign that would flat out ban the importation and use of live ducks in the state of Florida.
> Now we come to the point of why does SRS use rubber ducks? It seems that they do not always use them, but they ALWAYS use them on television. Why is that? Why don’t they use them on a television station that shows every animal that is legal to hunt being shot and killed? I have even seen seal hunting on VS and elephant hunting, but SRS is forced to use rubber ducks?
> IMHO the benefits of SRS getting exposure for the retrieve sports is far out weiged by the negative impact that using rubber ducks WILL HAVE on the sports. We don’t need new people coming into the sport that feel that we don’t need real birds, an enemy within is a bad thing.


I agree with what he said.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

Badbullgator; Great Post!!!


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## Lonny Taylor (Jun 22, 2004)

Long time since I have posted but have spent a bit of the morning reading this thread. I have been being encourged by a few of the other pros that run the SRS to jump in and take a few shots at SRS events. I have never been to one and would have to learn the game first. I have had a few dogs that they feel would excell at SRS but I will not go until enough of my clients are desiring this and willing to pay me to do it. I have several dogs that run FT and HT. I am sure that personally I would enjoy the challege of going toe to toe with Lyle, Chris & Clint, but I have to go were I can keep my business going and clients happy. 

As far as them using rubber ducks at SRS. Is not the company that makes the rubber ducks one of the big sponsors???? 

LT


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Lonny Taylor said:


> As far as them using rubber ducks at SRS. Is not the company that makes the rubber ducks one of the big sponsors????
> 
> LT


Indeed they are...

kg


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Wait a minute, you mean they're still making the d*mned things? What a waste of perfectly good plastic. Anyhow, I thought SRS bought NAHRA's surplus and because they've got a half-life of roughly the U-235 isotope (or is it just the cat-pee smell that lasts that long?), they would have enough for forever. But sponsorship is good.;-)

MG


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I would like to find out why they use rubber ducks because they do show live kills on their show. I think this started when they were on ESPN and then when they got the big sponsor is would be hard to change. Thanks for pointing this out because y'all have changed my mindset about SRS. The way your posting you would like the game if they used real ducks. I never thought about it until your post. I'll do some checking and find out the reason behind not using ducks but I think the I know the reason.


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

I don't think it has anything to do with the sponsor, they used Dokkens before the ATB's were on the market.

KG, why are you avoiding the sponsorship question?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> I would like to find out why they use rubber ducks because they do show live kills on their show. I think this started when they were on ESPN and then when they got the big sponsor is would be hard to change. Thanks for pointing this out because y'all have changed my mindset about SRS. The way your posting you would like the game if they used real ducks. I never thought about it until your post. I'll do some checking and find out the reason behind not using ducks but I think the I know the reason.


 
Kim I would have no problem with them if they used live birds. I had a legnthy discussion with Justin when they switched to VS and I cannot remember the smoke he blew up my butt, but smoke is what it was. Please let us know what you find out.

Hey Gut, that was when I got my "invite" to go hunting with him....didn't you get one of those too;-) Deflection at its best regards


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Troy B said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with the sponsor, they used Dokkens before the ATB's were on the market.
> 
> *KG, why are you avoiding the sponsorship question*?


I don't think he is, but I cannot speak for him, his answer says it all really.
For better or for worse follow the money;-)


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I may be wrong but I understand JT has an ownership interet in Avery Sporting Dog now. If that is true he's definitley going to use and promote his own products. He also had a hand in the design of the Avery ATB's.


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> I don't think he is, but I cannot speak for him, his answer says it all really.
> For better or for worse follow the money;-)


Maybe I missed the answer, since you have such strong feelings about it maybe you can answer. 

Whats the difference between SRS having sponsors and HRC/Master National having sponsors?

Whats the difference between the SRS having a cash prize and money hunts that take place for pointing dogs and coonhounds? Why is it taboo for retrievers but not for the others?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Troy B said:


> KG, since you brought up the sponsor/advertisors again I'm curious your thoughts on this. How does it differ?


Differ from what? No sponsor? Because sponsors control the use of their product and its use in the broadcast (not all, but some do). They can also demand other involvement, but I have -zero- insight on how it's done with SRS.



> Going another direction, there have been "money" hunts in pointing dogs and coonhounds as long as there's been ribbons - whats the difference between those and SRS aside from SRS is on TV.


You seem to want to discount the "TV" part as trivial. It is _central_ to SRS and it's success. I'd venture to say that SRS wouldn't EXIST without TV. Look at the GOG...ESPN is one of the if not THE most recognizable brand names on the planet. They dropped the GOG, ESPN is still here....

As for your reference to pointing breeds and ******* "money" games, if money were involved in retriever games, I wouldn't be...money changes everything....



> Aside from the rubber ducks, I can go either way - don't see it as a big deal, PETA not as powerfull as some think, what is so wrong with it? It brings people and attention to the retriever game, which can only help our game as a whole.


Please do some research before you state that "PETA not as powerfull as some think." PETA is one of THE most powerful urban terrorist groups in the country. You don't see them at HTs and FTs because there are GUNS on the grounds, and most states have an anti-harassment law that keeps them from confronting hunters in their venue. There have been MANY instances of PETA activists showing up at conformation events and letting dogs out of their kennels and cages.

I am on record as supporting SRS as it relates to promoting dogs in a positive way. It's a made-for-TV concern...period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial or caught up in the "rockstar" status of the pros "competing" there.

When I see folks looking to breed to the "SRS Champion" du jour and those pups start running FTs and HTs successfully, maybe then my attitude will change.....

Does that adequately answer your "sponsorship" question, Troy? ;-)

kg


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

duke7581 said:


> Well i see only one way to settle this, we need a bunch of FT people to run there dogs at all the SRS events and that should cut down on the number of dogs from certain handlers or not. Just having fun here. lol


I only read through the first two pages of this thread, but I thought I would mention two field trialers from our area that entered it, John Terriciano and Armand Fangsrud ran their FC/AFC dogs and took first and second, I'm not sure if it was the same time though. I remember Justin Tacket came out and trained with our group about five or six years ago, he seemed to be a knowledgeable dog person. I have never seen the SRS in person or on TV so, I don't know what's involved, I just wanted to point out the success of the two guys I know.

John


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

K G said:


> Differ from what? No sponsor? Because sponsors control the use of their product and its use in the broadcast (not all, but some do). They can also demand other involvement, but I have -zero- insight on how it's done with SRS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not particularly but oh well, I'll refrain now as momma always said regards.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> Indeed...but that will change....just keep watching....;-)
> 
> Interesting that if ANYONE says ANYTHING that does 100% support the SRS, folks consider it "blasting" or "flaming" SRS. There is NO room for a differing opinion, thought, or even information that is not PRO SRS (much less disagreement), with the sycophants of the SRS.
> 
> ...


How many FT dogs are now FC's after moving to another trainer?

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> I'm having a lot of trouble imagining that you aren't getting the whole rubber duck thing.
> Let's break it down- you are standing there at the water cooler and some young and impressionable lovely sees the pictures of your dog retreiving dead waterfowl on your desk. You proudly announce that your highly trained retriever is a new Master Hunter. See innocently says that she watched an episode of SRS on the tube Sunday last and there weren't any poor helpless little mammals that had to die for the entertainment of the participants and wants to know why your bloodthirsty ass can't find a way to entertain hishimself without causing irreparable damage to innocent waterfowl.
> 
> Anxiously awaiting your reply regards
> ...


I would then tell that young hottie that I really appreciate her silly-cones, they look great, give her great sex appeal, but if given the chance I want real ones....

/Paul


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I don’t care if any event has sponsors or not, UNLESS those sponsors insist on using a product that has been pointed out as being bad for the other sports it affects. In this case Avery is, and this is speculation of course, pushing the use of rubber ducks. For more on that see above.

As to the money issue, again I could not care less but as Keith points out, money changes everything and is not something I care to be involved in. People do strange and dishonest things when money is involved and please tell me you don’t believe that money does not influence how the **** dog games are played. There is also money in dog fighting, but that does not make it a good example now does it? ;-)

PETA is not as strong as we might think? That may or may not be true, but lets add to that HSUS, Friends of Animals, Animal Defense league, Animal Liberation league, SPCA, Western Animal Rights network, CAS International, Hunt Saboteurs Association, Animal Liberation Front, Animals Rights Militia, Southern Animal Rights Collation, Defenders of Wildlife, League Against Cruel Sports……. I can list many more, but I think you get the point. It is not a single group it is a bunch of them and I can tell from your post that you have been fortunate enough to never have had to deal with any of them. Ever wonder why most HT/FT have very small signs along the road saying “Dog Event” or something similar rather than “Hunt Test”? I’ll answer it for you, protestors will show up. As a group of people we have to stick together and defend our sports, not splinter it up. SRS’s use of rubber ducks is akin to a gun group advocating the banning of a particular type of gun that they do not use in their sport. Maybe not that harsh, but it is in no way a help to the rest of the dog sports. 

Last point, I find it interesting that JT no longer even tries to defend their position on this issue. Maybe one of you waterdoggies can make a post over there and he can swoop in and add some insight. 

Sold out regards


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> I don’t care if any event has sponsors or not, UNLESS those sponsors insist on using a product that has been pointed out as being bad for the other sports it affects. In this case Avery is, and this is speculation of course, pushing the use of rubber ducks. For more on that see above.
> 
> As to the money issue, again I could not care less but as Keith points out, money changes everything and is not something I care to be involved in. People do strange and dishonest things when money is involved and please tell me you don’t believe that money does not influence how the **** dog games are played. There is also money in dog fighting, but that does not make it a good example now does it? ;-)
> 
> ...


People do strange and dishonest things for no reason at all, let alone for money. I'm not even going to comment on comparing pointer or hound events to dog fighting. I would think if money had the negative effects on the coonhound or pointer games then they wouldn't do it anymore or wouldn't have the number of folks involved in it that they do. There is a guy who sponsors money hunts for pointers not too far from me and he always fills up. 

Your correct, there is not a strong group of all of the above in this area. I'm sure they exist but you never see or hear from them which is just fine. I've been to a number of tests/trials/SRS/WRC in five states to compete and watch and have yet to see protesters. Doesn't mean it can't happen here, it just hasn't. When and if it does maybe I'll see your point as having more merit.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Troy B said:


> Not particularly but oh well, I'll refrain now as momma always said regards.


I didn't ask you if you _agreed_ with me...I didn't expect you to.



Gun_Dog2002 said:


> How many FT dogs are now FC's after moving to another trainer?
> 
> /Paul


I have no clue and doubt if anyone else does either. I don't understand the relationship of this question to this thread....'splain, if you care to....

kg


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

K G said:


> I didn't ask you if you _agreed_ with me...I didn't expect you to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wasn't answering whether I agree. You said alot but didn't really answer the points to the question. No big deal, I didn't expect you to either.

Time to go to work regards..........


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Troy B said:


> Wasn't answering whether I agree. You said alot but didn't really answer the points to the question. No big deal, I didn't expect you to either.


I did the best I could to answer your question in post #69. Sorry I let you down.

kg


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Troy B said:


> Your correct, there is not a strong group of all of the above in this area. I'm sure they exist but you never see or hear from them which is just fine. I've been to a number of tests/trials/SRS/WRC in five states to compete and watch and have yet to see protesters. Doesn't mean it can't happen here, it just hasn't. When and if it does maybe I'll see your point as having more merit.


Isn’t that kind of like not caring about banning assault weapons until they come and take you auto loader shotgun? So since you have not seen "the problem" it does not exist? Man that is a dangerous view


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> I didn't ask you if you _agreed_ with me...I didn't expect you to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well you used a dog that "washed out" of FT's who was now successful in SRS to imply the competition was on the same level. My question is how do we know that the dog could have been just as successful at FT's by changing trainers? 

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well you used a dog that "washed out" of FT's who was now successful in SRS to imply the competition was on the same level. My question is how do we know that the dog could have been just as successful at FT's by changing trainers?
> 
> /Paul


It was by no means my intent to imply that the competition was on the same level between the SRS and a washed-out FT dog. Kim mentioned Free and I informed him of the dog's background. Kim mentioned several SRS dogs were FT washouts. Free WAS with at least one other trainer who has made several FCs and run numerous Nationals just like Chris Ledford has...

kg


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Y'all are talking about money, doesn't adding a FC/AFC in front of your dog count. You are talking about a lot of money when these dogs title. You don't think politics play a big part in the HT and FT world. I don't see a big difference in getting a title or money after winning. Just my 2 cents.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Here's a comment or two from someone who has won at the SRS game and had a _tad_ bit of success in field trials...post 81 and 82 if you need it....not much I can add to his words....except to say SRS has its place.

kg

http://www.dancindogproductions.com/showthread.php?t=12286&page=9


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Keith do you think he was being politically correct because he was on their site. I'm still working on getting the answer for using rubber ducks.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Keith do you think he was being politically correct because he was on their site. I'm still working on getting the answer for using rubber ducks.


I don't think Danny plays "politically correct." I do believe that he is a class act and a fantastic ambassador for this sport. I also believe that he knows when to talk and when to listen.

kg


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I cannot believe that dude asked him to compare a NFC to a SRS Crown Champion. He clearly had no idea what he was asking.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

Lonny Taylor said:


> As far as them using rubber ducks at SRS. Is not the company that makes the rubber ducks one of the big sponsors????
> 
> LT


And so is the company that makes real ducks


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

Here is some insight to the "rubber ducky" issue. I was told that the WRC was only 2 years because of the use of real ducks. The network wasn't comfortable with ducks being killed for the sake of training dogs. When the SRS started, alot of those folks had been involved in the WRC deal and they elected to go with rubber over real for the TV events.

I personally don't have a problem with them using the rubber ducks. Its my opinion that if the dogs can pick up a rubber duck in some of those setups, they can dang sure pick up a real duck.

The events being televised have a HUGE impact on the sport that most of us will never realize. I have had some of the same "like we've seen on TV" comments. I also have a very vivid memory of watching Jerry Day in the GOG waving his hat while handling. That was the first time I had ever seen anything like that and I was immediately hooked on the dogs.

There was also the Dyersburg, TN (2007) SRS that Howdy won. He is an AFC.....but he had just gotten his HRCH a few months before running the SRS......

My basic points are this:

1. Rubber ducks make it easier for the general public to stomach
2. I think if a dog can pick up a rubber duck, a real one will be a cakewalk (at that level)
3. The TV exposure has a positive influence on all dog events.
4. Howdy ran really, really well, and is a very nice dog.
5. There are alot of people on here that need other things to worry about.
6. If anyone knows about "not real life", its KG!!


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I'll try and tackle the sponsorship issue...

Sponsors limit things more than they will ever help IMO. By taking money from them you have become a slave to them. If they want you to use rubber ducks...guess what. Your going to use rubber ducks. If your going to use rubber ducks...your going to use OUR rubber ducks. I would like to believe that these sponsors have the best interest of the sport at heart. But I've had to many birthdays to buy into that. 

It's not just the SRS. It is our society as a whole. We have taken the simple things and made them complicated. Do I sell my buck of a lifetime to Cabela's? Or hang it on my wall? Do I call the company that made my bass lure and tell them about the world record bass I just caught?

The truth is that nothing is sacred anymore. What's next. Pro's with jackets like race car drivers? Wait. Maybe we are already seeing it. The fact is that for some the training fees/handling fees/bird fees/transportation fees are not enough. For some the little money one might get back by breeding a well accomplished dog isn't enough either. They have to hold a giant check and smile for the camera.

For others it is enough to train 6 or 7 days a week to get their nuts kicked in. The dream of getting a $2 ribbon keeps the fire burning. These same folks find the fact that family members think they are going to "dog shows" on the weekends o.k. These same folks don't really want "others" to understand what or why they do it...because they know if they truly did figure it out they would have us all put in padded rooms and throw away the keys.

As for those rubber ducks. I've tried them. And to be honest they take less prep time than a mallard to be edible.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

DuckTruk said:


> Here is some insight to the "rubber ducky" issue. I was told that the WRC was only 2 years because of the use of real ducks. The network wasn't comfortable with ducks being killed for the sake of training dogs. When the SRS started, alot of those folks had been involved in the WRC deal and they elected to go with rubber over real for the TV events.
> 
> I personally don't have a problem with them using the rubber ducks. Its my opinion that if the dogs can pick up a rubber duck in some of those setups, they can dang sure pick up a real duck.
> 
> ...


 
1)Rubber ducks give the general public the idea that there is no need to use real ducks
2)Duh. 
3)Ever action has an equal and opposite reaction. The positive effect is easily outweighed by the negative effect of precedence setting regarding the use of real ducks
4)Don’t know and don’t care
5)Highly disagree, this is something that can and will effect each and every one of us as dog trainers and handlers. I don’t want to be forced to use rubber birds and it can and will be an issue at some point and one of our very on venues will be held as an example of why there is not a reason to use live birds. This does affect me and it is a pressing matter. You cannot sit back and wait for the fight to begin and you don’t need people from within setting a bad example. This is kind of like the president of the NRA suggesting that we all only need to carry tazers because they are equally effective.
6)Highly disagree again, KG has a pretty good head on his shoulders and obviously an IQ greater than 30

It is sad that some people will never get the point as to the detriment of the use of rubber ducks. 
Maybe in my “old” age I am forgetting things, but according to you WRC was BEFORE SRS? If I am not incorrect WRC took place in 2005 and I know SRS has been around much longer than that starting with the GOG on ESPN. Chris I am sure can clear this up for us if he wants to.
You can blow the same old smoke up the collective posterior of everyone here that it is the television stations desire to not use real birds because they are worried about the public perception, but it will not fly with anyone who has an IQ over 30 and does not have a man crush on JT. This is the very network that has kill shark tournaments, seal hunting, elephant hunting, predator hunting, and pretty much kill shots for ANY ANIMAL that is legal to kill. Sorry but the above argument is just silly. I am sure the same audience that is watching SRS is not turning the channel as soon as the show is over to avoid seeing poor little animals get killed. Keep in mind they routinely show predator hunting and we all know there is not a lot of use for coyotes other than the hide, and prairie dogs, does anyone eat them or are they just shot as a means to control the varmint population? I don’t have any problem with any of that and my guess is that the vast majority of those who tune into VS (in a lot of areas this is an added feature to your regular programming that you have to pay for) are not real queasy when it comes to killing animals. You keep telling yourself and selling others that SRS could not survive with our rubber ducks and that it is a good thing for the sports, but the fact remains, follow the money and you will get the real reason why SRS uses rubber ducks made by Avery (ever wonder why they switched to Avery from Doken?). I don’t really care about sponsorship as I have mentioned in all my other post. I do, however, care when a deal is cut with a sponsor to use a product that is detrimental to our sports for the sake of a few making a profit. 
Use real birds and I have no problem with SRS, but IMHO they are a direct threat to me and the dog people in my state being able to continue to use real birds in our training, test, and trials. I really cannot believe you would have the same opinion as you do if you had read this entire thread…….


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

SRS Action....................................

It's Faaaannnntaaaaaaaaastic!!!!!!!!!!


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> 1) This is the very network that has kill shark tournaments, seal hunting, elephant hunting, predator hunting, and pretty much kill shots for ANY ANIMAL that is legal to kill. Sorry but the above argument is just silly. I am sure the same audience that is watching SRS is not turning the channel as soon as the show is over to avoid seeing poor little animals get killed. Keep in mind they routinely show predator hunting and we all know there is not a lot of use for coyotes other than the hide, and prairie dogs, does anyone eat them or are they just shot as a means to control the varmint population?
> 
> I really cannot believe you would have the same opinion as you do if you had read this entire thread…….


First of all, the comment about KG was a joke. I respect KG and his opinions, and agree with alot of them.

Secondly, I DO see the point that you are making regarding the rubber ducks and possibly being a "detriment" to the ability to use real birds at other events. But correlation that you are drawing is TOTALLY incorrect in regards to the other programs. Read back through your post, everything else you called out is HUNTING. I think that we can all agree that gassing ducks and shooting flyers is not HUNTING. It is also not population control. Don't misread me, I do not have a problem using real birds.

I never said that the SRS was before the WRC, that is an incorrect assumption on your part (maybe you should read the entire post). I merely stated what I was told about the WRC from one of the sponsors. Further the GOG and the SRS are 2 different events (although very similar).

And no, I do not have a "man crush" on JT. That again is another incorrect assumption that you have made. As hard as it is to believe, one can watch the SRS and not be in love with the host.

And so what if they switched from Dokkens to Avery to satisfy a sponsor. Isn't that what a sponsorship is for?? Of course with you, if they would've brought on Avery as a sponsor and kept using Dokkens that wouldn't have been good enough either.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

DuckTruk said:


> Here is some insight to the "rubber ducky" issue. I was told that the WRC was only 2 years because of the use of real ducks. The network wasn't comfortable with ducks being killed for the sake of training dogs.
> (snip)
> 
> My basic points are this:
> ...


Why would outdoor networks that show kill shots on thier hunting programs care about ducks being shot? They shoot ducks and geese in all the waterfowl shows! It is a poor excuse for not using real birds.

Also, understand that real birds ad an element to the event that you don't get with plastic birds. I personally would rather have a dog that really wants a bird in his mouth more than anything else over a dog that just likes to retrieve!

TV exposure? The successful Field Trialers aren't in it for the TV exposure and I don't think most of them really care for it. They are too busy looking for the best dog.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

Mr Booty said:


> Why would outdoor networks that show kill shots on thier hunting programs care about ducks being shot? They shoot ducks and geese in all the waterfowl shows! It is a poor excuse for not using real birds.
> 
> Also, understand that real birds ad an element to the event that you don't get with plastic birds. I personally would rather have a dog that really wants a bird in his mouth more than anything else over a dog that just likes to retrieve!
> 
> TV exposure? That's for the wanna bees because the hardcore successful Field Trialers aren't in it for the TV exposure. They are too busy looking for the best dog.


Again, the kill shots are in hunting situations. Further I am not the network, I didn't make the decision. I agree, the real birds add a different (better) element to the event.


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> Why would outdoor networks that show kill shots on thier hunting programs care about ducks being shot? They shoot ducks and geese in all the waterfowl shows! It is a poor excuse for not using real birds.
> 
> Also, understand that real birds ad an element to the event that you don't get with plastic birds. I personally would rather have a dog that really wants a bird in his mouth more than anything else over a dog that just likes to retrieve!
> 
> TV exposure? The successful Field Trialers aren't in it for the TV exposure and I don't think most of them really care for it. They are too busy looking for the best dog.


Fair chase......same issue most folks don't like canned hunts behind high fences.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

I understand the fair chase issue. Though there are a lot of deer being shot on TV in fenced in hunting operations.

Actually, SRS doesn't have to show a close up of the flyer being shot. Then explain to the viewing audience that dogs are trained with real PEN RAISED ducks because that makes them better CONSERVATION tools. I think the veiwing audience would accept that.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I have one question to all that are against using rubber ducks instead of real ducks because you are scared it will one day take away using real ducks in our events. Have you ever had anyone ask you why we use real ducks when they use rubber ducks on TV. Just Wondering. I think we are causing that problem ourselves by posting that they can use them so why can't the FT and HT world use them. Just Sayin


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Have you ever had anyone ask you why we use real ducks when they use rubber ducks on TV.


Yes I have. More than once.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I have one question to all that are against using rubber ducks instead of real ducks because you are scared it will one day take away using real ducks in our events. Have you ever had anyone ask you why we use real ducks when they use rubber ducks on TV. Just Wondering. I think we are causing that problem ourselves by posting that they can use them so why can't the FT and HT world use them. Just Sayin


Yes I have which is zackly why I push the issue. I really don't give a rusty **** what you choose to send your dog after as long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to send the dogs after what they were born to get sent after.

It ain't about wether or not SRS is a good show- it's about breaking ranks.

Don't understand why you don't get that regards

Bubba


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Bubba, I get it but I've never had anyone ask why we use Real Ducks. I was wondering if anyone else was ask that question. This must be a state by state problem, because I've never seen a problem here in TN.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Did any of you see the WRC televised? I believe it was the 2nd series where they shot a flyer on a ridge and I believe immediately the phones lit up. We had the discussion about that last week and what it could mean to our game.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

I did see it televised. I do remember they used real ducks, but I don't remember that particular instance (not saying it didn't happen, I just don't remember)


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Bubba, I get it but I've never had anyone ask why we use Real Ducks. I was wondering if anyone else was ask that question. This must be a state by state problem, because I've never seen a problem here in TN.


 
Yes I have many times and that is the reason I am so adamant about. It is not the people that actually come to a test or trail that I worry about. As stated before there are MANY groups out there that will never show up at a test or trail to ask me or you that question. The instead will send letters to the local, state and federal officials. Do you really think peta or any of the others cares to come to an event? Do you think ANYTHING you say would sway them away form their point of view? I can tell you from doing research with animals in college that although peta never set foot in any of our labs to even see what went on they sure did cause a lot of problems in the form of protesting and letter writing campaigns. They had ZERO understanding of what went on or how well the animals were treated, but they were very sure it was wrong. 
Kim, really you can come with any argument you want but you have to ask yourself if this COULD be an issue that is detrimental and you would have to answer they yes, even if it is not at this very moment it could be at any moment in the future. None of you can come up with anything to say there is no possibility or even a probability that will not have an adverse affect on the sports. There is also no good reason why real birds cannot be used. I have never said anything about a flyer so the far chase issue is not much of an issue. 

Like Bubba says it aint about SRS being a good testing venue it is about one of our “own” potentially screwing the others all in an effort to make the almighty dollar. For the second time now Kim I have seen you state that it must only be a problem elsewhere because you have not seen it. That either means you are implying that we are all lying or that you are foolish enough to think that because you have not seen it, it does not happen. I guess you feeling it that if it does not happen to you there is no problem. Historically a lot of people and groups have felt this way…..right up until it does happen to them and by that time it is usually too late. I guess for you it is not going to be a problem until this actually comes to fruition. Preemptive is always better than the alternative


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

K G said:


> I don't think Danny plays "politically correct." I do believe that he is a class act and a fantastic ambassador for this sport. I also believe that he knows when to talk and when to listen.
> 
> kg


That's about the most sound post throughout that I've read in awhile.


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

Ken Guthrie said:


> What ever happened to Stacey West?
> 
> At one time I assumed he was a supporting member of the SRS and all that they did.
> 
> ...



Me to, there are a bunch of the guys you don't see on there as much as you used to. Think there are off running trials?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

maxx said:


> Me to, there are a bunch of the guys you don't see on there as much as you used to. Think there are off running trials?


Maybe, but I'd bet that they figured out "the game" and decided it wasn't for them.


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

K G said:


> Hawg, when you've been around a field trial pro a little while, you'll understand why FT pros aren't interested in the SRS in the same way the "SRS Pro Staff" is. You make it sound like FT pros "won't play" because they're afraid of the competition. See Charlotte Kaiser's post below and you'll see why most of them won't...that, and the post that FT pros have nothing to prove. They're too busy creating FC/AFCs and qualifying for National Championship stakes with the dogs that can sire and whelp pups for folks running all dog events.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think the FTs are scared of SRS and never said that. I think the FTs won't run because they think SRS is a little beneath them. I don't blame them but I don't think it would be a cake walk either and some would win and some would lose. 

I completely disagree on the "SRS won't help grow FT entries". Its like anything else some will come into the game and have a goal to get to the top of the game. I'm certain we both agree, week end week out FTs are the top of the game.


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> I understand the fair chase issue. Though there are a lot of deer being shot on TV in fenced in hunting operations.
> 
> Actually, SRS doesn't have to show a close up of the flyer being shot. Then explain to the viewing audience that dogs are trained with real PEN RAISED ducks because that makes them better CONSERVATION tools. I think the veiwing audience would accept that.


If it was only that easy.....folks like us are a very small percentage. I deal w/ these types of people on a daily basis as they sign up for wildlife habitat programs. they want more wildlife and improve habitats but don't understand the hunting aspects of wildlife conservation. All they see is a preservationist point of view.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

badbullgator I understand your arguments and agree with most. I said we don't see this much in TN. Is this more a problem in the more liberal states? I know we could come up with a lot of arguments against or for using real ducks on TV. Everyone on here has come up with some good arguments. Here is one against, if they use real ducks on TV could it bring more attention to our sport? I thinking the people who are watching and come to our sport are hunters, if a PETA person seen the show on TV they wouldn't think much about it. Just a thought so don't get all upset.

By the way some of the people you are not seeing on the TV don't have dogs that can compete at that level at this time. It goes in cycles and when they have a good dog you will see them again. This sport is great for the HT Pro's and it brings them more business, so why would they not want the free air time.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

D Beard said:


> Fair chase......same issue most folks don't like canned hunts behind high fences.


 
See there is part of the rub. The fair chase folks who would come out on a news program that is totally anti hunting are to busy being impressed with the relations with Teddy Roosevelt and being patting each other on the back to realize that they are helping the folks that are working to take the opportunity for them to hunt away. Tower shoots, canned hunts, FT HT its all the same. The majority of sportsman will throw these venues under the bus so they can hunt another day. Keep adding nails to the coffin though its OK I have hunted for 40 years and figure I can only do it for another 20 and by that time it should be banned.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Many of you obviously don't read the hard-core PETA propoganda message. PETA's opposition to hunting is just a means to an end among it's elite leadership. In reality PETA is against pet ownership all together. PETA is against even the idea of domesticated animals. That would include not only our pet dogs & cats but also domesticated horses, cattle etc. When they say they want animals to live in harmony with nature they mean survival of the fittest in the wild. They mean wild animals would have rights equal to or be on par with human society. They want a vegetarian human society with NO wildlife management where wild animals are allowed to determine their own order apart from human intervention. Yet many non-hunters see PETA as an advocate for animals. PETA thinks animals should be wild & those that are not wild should be destroyed. The fact is today PETA & HSUS destroy more pets than anyone other organizations. But PETA has learned very well that they can get those whom they are targeting to not only approve of their short term goals & programs (their means to an end) but also provide the funds to implement them. All the while I see & hear of sportmen using appeasement as a course of action hoping to make our sport tolerable to them. I see our recent proposed FT rules and those using rubber ducks (as a public choice) as part of that appeasement approach - and it will do nothing to actually appease PETA and other radical thinkers who really think your pets should be destroyed to restore an animal society without domesticated animals. We need to be making a defense of hunting & hunting dogs to the rational non-hunting public rather than thinking appeasement will make us tolerable to PETA & their radical kindship


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> badbullgator I understand your arguments and agree with most. I said we don't see this much in TN. Is this more a problem in the more liberal states? I know we could come up with a lot of arguments against or for using real ducks on TV. Everyone on here has come up with some good arguments. Here is one against, if they use real ducks on TV could it bring more attention to our sport? I thinking the people who are watching and come to our sport are hunters, if a PETA person seen the show on TV they wouldn't think much about it. Just a thought so don't get all upset.
> 
> By the way some of the people you are not seeing on the TV don't have dogs that can compete at that level at this time. It goes in cycles and when they have a good dog you will see them again. This sport is great for the HT Pro's and it brings them more business, so why would they not want the free air time.


 
COme on now Kim I thought the argument FOR SRS was that it brought attention to the sports so what do you think happens to all those it "brings in" thinking every thing is rubber ducky and find out otherwise. Florida is far from a liberal state. He have some if not THE best gun owner rights in the country as well as fantastic fishing and hunting regulations including laws preventing harassment by these groups. The fact is that several people including my self have said they have seen these things happening. Why can't you undersatand that IF it is happening to ANYONE, ANY PLACE it is too much.

Davd makes a great point, these groups are all about doing away with pets period and they will cut into every little slice they can, much like the anti gun crowd, a slice at a time and we don;t need anyone in our own sport offering up the knife to cut it with


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

hawgsalot said:


> I completely disagree on the "SRS won't help grow FT entries". Its like anything else some will come into the game and have a goal to get to the top of the game. I'm certain we both agree, week end week out FTs are the top of the game.


Go watch a few field trials and _then_ see if you still "completely disagree." Competing in field trials (_competing_, not simply _entering_) is a whole different ballgame and requires a unique mindset.

Just sayin'.....

kg


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Keith I know a lot of the Pro's that are running SRS are now entering these dogs in FT's. They only ran Hunt test until they started competing in SRS. Their clients now want to see if they can compete in FT's.

Bull the one's that it's bringing attention to are hunters. Do you think they care if they use Ducks or Rubber. 

Bull it's going to happen even if we didn't have SRS on TV. 

I'm not arguing that they should use Rubber ducks but I'm not saying I'm totally against it. I'm sure people would still have things to say about the SRS even if they used real ducks.

If they don't want us to have pets, then making our dogs run after rubber or real ducks wouldn't matter to them. They wouldn't want us to use our dogs for anything.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Keith I know a lot of the Pro's that are running SRS are now entering these dogs in FT's. They only ran Hunt test until they started competing in SRS. Their clients now want to see if they can compete in FT's.
> 
> Bull the one's that it's bringing attention to are hunters. Do you think they care if they use Ducks or Rubber.
> 
> ...


How are those SRS Pro's doing running FT's? Not trying to start an argument just curious on how they are doing.


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

See Alex Washburn top derby dog, afc and fc dogs. It started with hunt tests and SRS.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

hawgsalot said:


> See Alex Washburn top derby dog, afc and fc dogs. It started with hunt tests and SRS.


My question was How many PRO's!! I could be wrong about this but I think Alex was running FT's before the GOG or SRS. Alex won the 2002 GOG (year could be wrong) with Ticket who was already an FC/AFC.


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

Brandoned said:


> I THINK Alex was running FT's before the GOG or SRS. I could be wrong about that. I just remember when Alex won the GOG in 2002 (I think it was that year) Ticket was already an FC/AFC.


I like you-- Don't want to "start an argument".
Is your question then - "who has run the SRS and then gone on to FT success?" is this correct?

If that is correct - would you then define - "success" ?

Is it placing in the Derby and or Qual? - or Winning? or simply entering???
Is it placing in the Open?

I think you will find some "results" in Derby and Qual events - by some of the SRS guys who reg. run them. 

I don't think we will find much results in the Open - I could be mistaken.
I don't think anyone wants to go against -Farmer , Eckett etc...

Are we comparing Apples to Apples - Oranges to Oranges -- ??
I think if I was doing something- "professionally" "for a living" to keep a roof over my head and food on the table - and the banker from foreclosing.... I would stay focused on what "pays the bills" ---If it is HT... I focus on HT..... If it is FT - then I focus on FT -- If it is the SRS -- then on and on. If it is working - don't mess it up by going into something and risk your business. --- Does that make sense?


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

J Hoggatt said:


> I like you-- Don't want to "start an argument".
> Is your question then - "who has run the SRS and then gone on to FT success?" is this correct?
> 
> If that is correct - would you then define - "success" ?
> ...


Check out Post #139, all I was asking was how are the SRS PRO's doing in the FT game? I was just wanting "results", placements, jam's whatever? I don't understand how my simple little question like this turned into comparing """Apples to Apples""""and """"Oranges to Oranges"""!


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## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

I've heard that Stacy's reason for going back to FT's was that he had grown tired of all the traveling required for SRS.

https://www.retrieverentry.com/eventview.php?id=18

He and Rankin got an open Jam at the above event, not sure about any others.


I agree with most of you about the rubber ducks, I think it brings a spotlight onto the other venues that use real ducks, and that eventually it will cause problems for the sport. When I first got into HT's I wondered why PETA wasn't there raising hell. Now I wonder even more, because NOW they have a precedent to use against us. They can say SRS doesn't use real ducks, why do you have to. 

All I have to do is watch my dog, and my blood pressure to know why we both like using real ducks, especially flyers and not rubber ones. He's broke 4 or 5 times in HT's and every one was on the flyer, out of order or go bird didn't matter...when he left he left for the flyer. You can also tell when he comes back with a fresh duck that's he's a close to dogheaven as he can get and still have a heartbeat.

In a previous post, someone mentioned an SRS scenario about a 10 yard, in your face rubber bird that would give the FT dogs a fit (I'm not too sure about this), but I'm thinking if that 10 yard bird was a "SHOT FLYER" then most those SRS dogs would have a helluva time too!!!!

A good dog is a good dog, but if your not comparing apples to apples then it's a mute point.

So while I agree totally with the radical PETA point of view that Corey talked about. 

Nothing compares to a "real" fresh duck for the dogs. I'm not against SRS at all, I think it does generate a bunch of exposure for the sport, but it's not all good exposure.


Real Apples to Rubber Apples regards
Brad


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

hawgsalot said:


> See Alex Washburn top derby dog, afc and fc dogs. It started with hunt tests and SRS.


Check your history. Alex Washburn was running and winning FTs LONG before she ran HTs and SRS....

Anybody else come to mind?

kg


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

I can't think of many Pro's that ran SRS and are successful that have went to the FT Game. The Big name Pros that run it all the time are running HT. Except for Stieman


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## Northrup Larson (Oct 20, 2003)

"I think it does generate a bunch of exposure for the sport, but it's not all good exposure."

I have often heard it said that there is no bad publicity


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## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

Northrup Larson said:


> "I think it does generate a bunch of exposure for the sport, but it's not all good exposure."
> 
> I have often heard it said that there is no bad publicity


I usually agree with that statement...in situiations where the governing body might not cave-in to that publicity. In this situiation, I would rather not find out.


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

Brandoned said:


> Check out Post #139, all I was asking was how are the SRS PRO's doing in the FT game? I was just wanting "results", placements, jam's whatever? I don't understand how my simple little question like this turned into comparing """Apples to Apples""""and """"Oranges to Oranges"""!


Chris Jobman - 1st , Res.Jam., and Jam -in the Qual. on 5-8-09.	

Qualifying - Friday - 26 Entries Judges: James Haller & Jason Watkins
#	Dog Name	Owner	Handler	Results
25 HRCH UH Duckdawg Dottie's Lil' Pistol Chris Jobman Chris Jobman 1st
11 Hit The Road Like a Warrior Dennis Mitchell Steve Blythe/Dennis Mitchell 2nd
17 Dancing With The Stars Martha McCool Kenny Trott 3rd
21 Ruff Rivers Black Magic Marker SH Jason Brion Jason Brion 4th
16 GRHRCH UH McMac Magic Eyes A'Smilin MH Libby Milroy Chris Jobman Res. Jam
2 Smooth Move Grace Nothin But Net David Bendler Bart Peterson Jam
14 HRCH Dakota Gunner V MH Michael Lanning Michael Lanning Jam
15 Tartan Prime Pizazz Barbara and James Howard Barb Howard Jam
19 Wow Cinnamon's Shoshoni Explosion Walt Barnes Walt Barnes Jam
20 GRHRCH UH Riparian's Ebonstar Lean Jake MH Gary Henning Chris Jobman Jam

Here is one example on the Qual. 

BUT - IN General I kind of agree that the SRS Pros - don't typically run the FT game -on a regular basis. I think they do it - only for exposure to run the SRS events.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

The reason I posted that some of the Pro's are now running FT is because it was posted above that SRS isn't bring new dogs to FT. I know of 3 SRS dogs that have placed or come in first in Q's but I don't know how many have placed or have won an open.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

kimsmith said:


> ...but I don't know how many have placed or have won an open.


I believe that would be zero (including Amateur stake too)........of those dogs that are primarily SRS dogs, i.e., I'm excluding Farmer & his one time entry & other similar one-time entries (if there are any). Might be wrong but I don't recall any SRS dogs becoming field titled following SRS campaigning.

Another consideration not yet discussed relative to real birds, I believe SRS set-ups would change dramatically if real birds were used. You just can't throw/launch, shoot real birds in such close proximity to one another or such close lines and get good marking results. Then again as I understand it, SRS dogs are not penalized significantly for a handle on a mark anyway - a significant difference from an AA event where a handle is most times followed by elimination or a JAM at best.


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

K G said:


> Check your history. Alex Washburn was running and winning FTs LONG before she ran HTs and SRS....
> 
> Anybody else come to mind?
> 
> kg


Well I'm not sure but I remember running HT a long time ago and I don't believe she was running any FTs then but if you say she was before SRS or GOG then I believe you.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Most of these pro's are buying Ft wash Outs to run SRS, that being said most FT washouts can do Qualifying work already when they get them.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

HT Pro's don't train for FT's so why would they be able to compete. Are you now saying that HT's dogs are not that good. Just like I said if it wasn't rubber ducks it would be something else.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> The reason I posted that some of the Pro's are now running FT is because it was posted above that SRS isn't bring new dogs to FT. I know of 3 SRS dogs that have placed or come in first in Q's but I don't know how many have placed or have won an open.


So far we have one SRS pro listed as placing and finishing in a field trial qualifying stake. If we call _that_ "bringing new dogs into field trials," then so be it.



hawgsalot said:


> Well I'm not sure but I remember running HT a long time ago and I don't believe she was running any FTs then but if you say she was before SRS or GOG then I believe you.


I judged her in field trials about 15 years ago with a dog named "Ticket." She started her field trial career some time before that with the Atterburys down in Florida, if I recall correctly.



Jason E. said:


> Most of these pro's are buying Ft wash Outs to run SRS, that being said most FT washouts *can do Qualifying work* already when they get them.


At a _minimum_ if they are FT _washouts_...



kimsmith said:


> HT Pro's don't train for FT's so why would they be able to compete. Are you now saying that HT's dogs are not that good. Just like I said if it wasn't rubber ducks it would be something else.


If SRS "pros" aren't running all-age stakes with their SRS dogs, then we'll probably never be able to make a true comparison. If they are running qualifyings and doing well (which apparently at least ONE of them is), then is it reasonable to say that the SRS competition is somewhat equal to the Qualifying minor stake in a field trial?

kg


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

qoute;
HT Pro's don't train for FT's so why would they be able to compete. Are you now saying that HT's dogs are not that good. Just like I said if it wasn't rubber ducks it would be something else.


What he is saying is that most of those washouts are trained to higher level than HT.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

K G said:


> If SRS "pros" aren't running all-age stakes with their SRS dogs, then we'll probably never be able to make a true comparison. If they are running qualifyings and doing well (which apparently at least ONE of them is), then is it reasonable to say that the SRS competition is somewhat equal to the Qualifying minor stake in a field trial?
> 
> kg


It is equal to a Qualifying stake, a good friend of mine judged one telling me they had a good Q set up. When it was shown on tv the anounncer said it was a big AA set up, which it wasnt. i have nothing against the SRS or the people running it, all have good dogs. With that being said its a handling game not just 1 handle but every marking series they have they handle. You can get away with that sometimes in a Q , but handle in both series of an AA stake and see what happens. Now if some of these guys would only train for FT's they may be competitve, but why would they want to do that when their game is SRS.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

K G said:


> I judged her in field trials about 15 years ago with a dog named "Ticket." She started her field trial career some time before that with the Atterburys down in Florida, if I recall correctly.
> 
> kg


 
She was running Ginny's dogs at least that long ago. Roger Perry could give you more firm details.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> HT Pro's don't train for FT's so why would they be able to compete. Are you now saying that HT's dogs are not that good. Just like I said if it wasn't rubber ducks it would be something else.


 I think HT dogs are great dogs. I know of 2 QQA dogs bought by one of the SRS pros cleaned up when started running HT's never failing a MH test or Finished plus both grands. Look at Lyle all his dogs are FT wash outs at the QAA level.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

J Hoggatt said:


> Chris Jobman - 1st , Res.Jam., and Jam -in the Qual. on 5-8-09.
> 
> Qualifying - Friday - 26 Entries Judges: James Haller & Jason Watkins
> #	Dog Name	Owner	Handler	Results
> ...


You really could have saved yourself a lot of typing!! Chris Jobman would have been plenty. The only reason I asked was because there were only two SRS Pro's that I could think of, Chris Akin and Lyle.

I must be asking for too much, but when the statement was made that (again post #139) someone knew a lot of the SRS Pro's were running FT's now; coming up with a few names would have been pretty easy...............but then again, I guess I am asking for too much????


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

J. Paul Jackson ran 4 or 5 dogs in Nashville's FT. Came in 4Th in the Q with a HRCH/MH dog. He didn't do as well in the Open. He also won a Q in Arkansas. If you need the results I'll copy and paste. Not saying they will be able to compete at the higher level because they don't train that way every day, but they are bringing more dogs to FT's. Now this will make some of the FT'ers mad but you also need to able to play the politics in the FT game. It's going to hard to compete with people that are running day in day out in a very political game. Just like some have said that SRS is political FT's are just as bad. Even HT are political to a degree.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> J. Paul Jackson ran 4 or 5 dogs in Nashville's FT. Came in 4Th in the Q with a HRCH/MH dog. He didn't do as well in the Open. He also won a Q in Arkansas. If you need the results I'll copy and paste. Not saying they will be able to compete at the higher level because they don't train that way every day, but they are bringing more dogs to FT's. Now this will make some of the FT'ers mad but you also need to able to play the politics in the FT game. It's going to hard to compete with people that are running day in day out in a very political game. Just like some have said that SRS is political FT's are just as bad. Even HT are political to a degree.


So J Paul ran 4 or 5 dogs in the Q at Middle Tenn?????? That's great for HIM! The reason I say it like that is because the Mid Tenn Qual was an Owner Handler Qual. So does he own all 4 or 5 of these dogs???? If he does wow, you want to talk about politics. Are you going to tell me that when he is running the SRS running his own dogs that he is going to run his dog the same way he runs the rest of his client’s dogs? This is another example of how MONEY CHANGES EVERYTHING! 

Again about politics; I have judged a few times over the last few years, I will argue with you on the political part in the trials that I have judged. In several trials I have had people that won under me that if they were broke down on the side of the road I wouldn't stop for them. I have also never had anyone try to put a friend’s dog in front of another. Again I am not saying it doesn't happen.


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> . Now this will make some of the FT'ers mad but you also need to able to play the politics in the FT game. It's going to hard to compete with people that are running day in day out in a very political game. Just like some have said that SRS is political FT's are just as bad. Even HT are political to a degree.


This has to be the lamest excuse ever.

Anyone who has run the Texas circuit for a while knows the best way to get a placement is to threaten to kill one of there loved ones or simply bribe the judges with cash.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> *Bull the one's that it's bringing attention to are hunters*. Do you think they care if they use Ducks or Rubber.
> 
> Bull it's going to happen even if we didn't have SRS on TV.
> 
> I'm not arguing that they should use Rubber ducks but I'm not saying I'm totally against it. I'm sure people would still have things to say about the SRS even if they used real ducks.


 
Kim that is simply your opinion. The majority of those who I talk to that say, “oh you mean your dogs do that stuff like on tv” are in fact not hunters. I cannot tell you how many people I have had come up while I was training or somewhere with the dogs that says this too me and they are not hunters. You can safely assume some that watch are hunters, but probably no more than 50%. Do you think that a lot of folks tune in for the other competitions???? Just wondering if you think all the dock dog people are hunters too? You are assuming everyone watching is like you when in fact that is simply not the case. There is a relatively new member on here that contacted me through another website wanting to get into the games they “saw on tv”. I invited them to one of our clubs HT. One of the very first things they asked was why we use real birds and that it was gross. I was able to explain it and they are now training, but they are not hunters. I can name several more of our club members that have seen SRS that are not hunters. My sister in law and brother in law are here this week and guess what, when he saw my dogs and I told him what they did he said “oh you mean like the ones on vs” and the only thing he has hunted is another beer from the refrigerator. You know what they say about assuming. You also seem to be assuming that since it does not affect you yet that it is not an issue.
As far as your argument that it would bring bad attention to the sports by using real birds, I disagree, attention yes but we as a group own it and can defend it. The point you are missing is that we don’t need one of our own helping the other side. You know the FT/HT crowd is going to fight it along with a number of groups, but what use are the SRS guys going to be when they have been in bed with the enemy?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Tulsa,

If you take me pheasant hunting and let me use Patricia as my bird dog, I will let you win any trial I judge at.


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## Stylesl (Feb 1, 2004)

Brandoned said:


> In several trials I have had people that won under me that if they were broke down on the side of the road I wouldn't stop for them.


Another RTF classic!

LOL-

Lisa


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I would have to look at the entries but I think he only ran 1 in the Q and the others were in the open. I also heard the same thing about owners/handler and I'm not sure what happened. If he did run a client dog that he didn't own then I'm sure they will pull his ribbon. Like I said before I'm looking at both sides and all of you have good points on using real ducks. I don't have a problem with your arguments at all. I'm just looking at the other side also and I'm not convinced that SRS is hurting our sport. We can make all kinds of arguments either way. All retriever games are politically to a point, it's human nature. If 2 dogs are the same and you are the judge, you will pick the handler/dog you like the most.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> I would have to look at the entries but I think he only ran 1 in the Q and the others were in the open. I also heard the same thing about owners/handler and I'm not sure what happened. If he did run a client dog that he didn't own then I'm sure they will pull his ribbon. Like I said before I'm looking at both sides and all of you have good points on using real ducks. I don't have a problem with your arguments at all. I'm just looking at the other side also and I'm not convinced that SRS is hurting our sport. *We can make all kinds of arguments either way*. All retriever games are politically to a point, it's human nature. If 2 dogs are the same and you are the judge, you will pick the handler/dog you like the most.


No there is no argument that rubber ducks are bad and hurt the sports. You can try to justify it, but you are only saying that it may be hurting the sport but you don’t care because you have not seen it. If you can make so many arguments the other way why have you not posted one that has not been dispelled? You have made several, but all have had numerous holes shot through them. Making an argument and having a valid argument are two different things. Kim several people have pointed out very clearly that there is already impact form it, so you cannot make the argument that it is not hurting the sports.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

The only argument I can make about using rubber ducks on TV, it doesn't bring bad attention to our sport like using real ducks. Now you made a argument that some are not hunters that SRS bring to our sport. There are a lot FT dogs/handlers that are not hunters also. 

Also when we talk about washout FT dogs what does that mean. Does that mean if you have a 100 dogs each weekend and only a few place or get a Jam are all the rest washouts. What percent of dogs that run each weekend never get a ribbon or jam. Is it 50 %, 75 % or 80% so all of those other dogs are wash outs because they are really not competing just someone has a lot of money to waste.


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## Keith Holsted (Jul 17, 2003)

Kim, I am the Sec/tres of Central Arkansas Retriever club and I marshalled the Q this spring and J Paul wasn't at our trial.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> The only argument I can make about using rubber ducks on TV, it doesn't bring bad attention to our sport like using real ducks. Now you made a argument that some are not hunters that SRS bring to our sport. There are a lot FT dogs/handlers that are not hunters also.
> 
> Also when we talk about washout FT dogs what does that mean. Does that mean if you have a 100 dogs each weekend and only a few place or get a Jam are all the rest washouts. What percent of dogs that run each weekend never get a ribbon or jam. Is it 50 %, 75 % or 80% so all of those other dogs are wash outs because they are really not competing just someone has a lot of money to waste.


Kim I guess you missed my post about the perceived “bad” attention from SRS using real ducks. First they already use real ducks when not on television. Second you are missing the point that we as hunt testers and field trailers OWN the issue of live birds. We are not hiding it and will fight anyone who tries to take it from us. We don’t go out and shove it in everyone’s face, but we do not hide it or from the issues involved with it. As a group we can be very strong and I would hope we would also have help from other groups. Trying to fool people is where the problem gets sticky. Show them what we do and let the chips fall where they may. I know that I for one always would rather know the reality of something rather than have someone blow smoke up my butt trying to sugar coat something or hide something. That pisses people off way more that being up front and honest to begin with.
So now it seems that we are down to only one very weak argument that it might be bad to show real birds on a television station that shows close up kill shots of just about every creature on God’s green earth. Now can you really continue to tell me that you don’t think that SRS using rubber ducks is a bad thing when the only argument you have is a very, very weak one at best and numerous counter arguments against the use of rubber ducks have been presented? 
I have never said the dogs or handlers are no good, or even that the game itself is no good, in fact it looks fun. I have only stated that rubber ducks are very bad for us as a whole


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Kim, next time you see J. Paul, ask him what happened to that 4th place he got in the Owner/Handler Qualifying at the MTARC trial...:wink:

RJs are awarded for a reason regards,

kg


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## kbobbjr (Jan 17, 2009)

For all those so opposed to using "rubber ducks"; do you use real ducks *everytime, everywhere* you train? Do you purchase products from the companies that produce products that you feel is *so* detrimental to our sport? If you feel "rubber ducks" are so detrimental to our sport then you should be totally opposed to using them and you should be boycotting the companies that promote their use. Do you use Dokkens, ATB's, bumpers, bumper boys, etc?? None of these are "real ducks" and therefore anyone that sees you using them could make the same arguement; why use real ducks? I'm not saying one viewpoint is right or wrong but you have made a stand, do you walk the walk or just talk the talk???


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> , but what use are the SRS guys going to be when they have been in bed with the enemy?



Really??!! In bed with the enemy?? You are saying that they are supporting the Anti's by using rubber birds?? I guess we all need to train with real birds all the time. I don't have a problem with you not being a fan of the SRS, but this is a bit over the top.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

DuckTruk said:


> Really??!! In bed with the enemy?? You are saying that they are supporting the Anti's by using rubber birds?? I guess we all need to train with real birds all the time. I don't have a problem with you not being a fan of the SRS, but this is a bit over the top.


 
Read the thread and if you think that is even close to what this is about I can't help you


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kbobbjr said:


> For all those so opposed to using "rubber ducks"; do you use real ducks *everytime, everywhere* you train? Do you purchase products from the companies that produce products that you feel is *so* detrimental to our sport? If you feel "rubber ducks" are so detrimental to our sport then you should be totally opposed to using them and you should be boycotting the companies that promote their use. Do you use Dokkens, ATB's, bumpers, bumper boys, etc?? None of these are "real ducks" and therefore anyone that sees you using them could make the same arguement; why use real ducks? I'm not saying one viewpoint is right or wrong but you have made a stand, do you walk the walk or just talk the talk???


 
I don't use rubber ducks, bumpers sometimes, but then again I do not train on a national tv show either so that example is kind of apples to rocks. Thanks for playing though;-)


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> Kim, I am the Sec/tres of Central Arkansas Retriever club and I marshalled the Q this spring and J Paul wasn't at our trial.


According to EE he ran 7 dogs, that was were I got my information. I'm not sure what year he ran, it could have been a years or 2 ago.



> Kim, next time you see J. Paul, ask him what happened to that 4th place he got in the Owner/Handler Qualifying at the MTARC trial


Keith I'm on the board and heard about it but I haven't talk to J. Paul.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Keith I'm on the board and heard about it but I haven't talk to J. Paul.


So you know what happened to that 4th place?

kg


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## Scott K (Jan 4, 2009)

Rubber ducks or Real ducks...regardless the SRS is entertaining TV and that is why I watch it.

The SRS and their crew have done a lot for HRC and I will continue to support them and the sponsors of SRS and HRC so I can continue watching great dogs doing what they love....RETRIEVING! 

I asked my pup and she said it doesn't matter if it is a rubber duck, a real duck or a stick...she loves running after it and bringing it back to me so I can throw it again.

If only our lives were as simple as our dogs...

...we should be so lucky


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Keith I don't know what happened but I'll find out. If he didn't own the dog then I'm sure they took 4th place from him. I'm not sure if they give 4th too the next in line. Don't get me wrong and I'm not taking up for him but what difference does 4th make. You get to brag you made it through a Q, it doesn't do anything for you. To me it the same as not placing at all. Also I'm not taking up for him, but doesn't this happen a lot in FT, Pro's become half owners of good dogs. I don't know if this is the case, but it has happened before.

Birdie Retriever you shouldn't say that HRC supports SRS because a lot of people on here that don't like the HRC program. I'm a large supporter of HRC and it's my favorite dog game. I guess the HRC program ranks about the same as the SRS program. I don't think the rubber duck is as much of a issue, I think the issue is the HT Pro is getting recognized on TV and some people don't like the idea that these people are an ICON to the viewing public. You can ask around if anyone knows the great FT Pro's and if you are not in the FT game they wouldn't know who they are. But ask if they know Lyle Steinman, Scott Greer, Chris Akin, J. Paul Jackson, Etc they would say I seen them on TV.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

kimsmith said:


> There are a lot FT dogs/handlers that are not hunters also.


Exactly. Thanks for making my point. If some FTer that doesn't hunt, doesn't mind using the real thing than how come the SRS does? If you don't think that part of the game is lost by not using real birds...well I just can't help you.

I think the reason some are making the arguement that the SRS isn't good for the sport is because of the doggie games tradition. Tradition says that we use real birds and live flyers. The fact is that the FT program and the various HT programs paved the way long ago. The SRS doesn't want to honer this tradition. But they would like to "TAKE" from the game what they like. And of course make money off it. The question remains to be answered "What will be left of the traditional FT and HT games when the SRS has run it's course."

Maybe you should talk to the people running FT's in the country north of us and see if they feel their game is any different because they don't use flyers?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> J. Paul Jackson ran 4 or 5 dogs in Nashville's FT. Came in 4Th in the Q with a HRCH/MH dog. He didn't do as well in the Open. He also won a Q in Arkansas. If you need the results I'll copy and paste. Not saying they will be able to compete at the higher level because they don't train that way every day, but they are bringing more dogs to FT's.


I'm still wondering where the concrete proof of this is....simply _saying_ it doesn't make it so.



> Now this will make some of the FT'ers mad but you also need to able to play the politics in the FT game. It's going to hard to compete with people that are running day in day out in a very political game. Just like some have said that SRS is political FT's are just as bad. Even HT are political to a degree.


Kim, where have you PERSONALLY experienced politics at a field trial? I'm just trying to understand your reference point....or are you just parroting what you've heard from your circle of friends? 



kimsmith said:


> I'm just looking at the other side also and I'm not convinced that SRS is hurting our sport.


It's the "what we'll settle for" factor, if you will. If the SRS, which is "bringing all these new people to field trials" (as you say), then what is to stop all these new people from pushing for the use of ATBs? *Some* of these folks are NOT going to cotton to a blood sport, which ALL HTs/FTs are. If you don't understand the power and all-but-fearless nature of PETA, then this whole discussion is lost on you.



> We can make all kinds of arguments either way. All retriever games are politically to a point, it's human nature. If 2 dogs are the same and you are the judge, you will pick the handler/dog you like the most.


Please don't attempt to speak for anyone but yourself here, Kim. Speaking *solely* for myself, you are as WRONG as wrong can be. See Brandoned's post above and Lisa's confirmation for an example if you need it.



kimsmith said:


> The only argument I can make about using rubber ducks on TV, it doesn't bring bad attention to our sport like using real ducks. Now you made a argument that some are not hunters that SRS bring to our sport. There are a lot FT dogs/handlers that are not hunters also.


This confirms to me that you have no problem with losing live birds in retriever events. You could have saved yourself a lot of time just saying that from the outset. If you don't have any trouble with that, then you won't have any trouble with losing duck hunting as a sport. Ever hear of the "snowball" effect? Ever hear of "give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile?" 



> Also when we talk about washout FT dogs what does that mean. Does that mean if you have a 100 dogs each weekend and only a few place or get a Jam are all the rest washouts. What percent of dogs that run each weekend never get a ribbon or jam. Is it 50 %, 75 % or 80% so all of those other dogs are wash outs because they are really not competing just someone has a lot of money to waste.


I've got to believe you're kidding here. But in case you're not, a "washout" to me is the dog that can't consistently pick up a short retired checkdown bird, or doesn't have the punch to consistently pick up that LONG 450 yd last water bird in the last series of the Open, or can't handle correction when it comes to the training that is necessary to accomplish both of these things (and sometimes it's not training...sometimes the dog just "doesn't have it.") Rather than keep putting good money after bad, these dogs get "washed out," i.e. sold to folks whose needs they can fulfill...like running SRS...and that's _okay_, but they can't perform at the highest level of FT competition.



kbobbjr said:


> For all those so opposed to using "rubber ducks"; do you use real ducks *everytime, everywhere* you train? Do you purchase products from the companies that produce products that you feel is *so* detrimental to our sport? If you feel "rubber ducks" are so detrimental to our sport then you should be totally opposed to using them and you should be boycotting the companies that promote their use. Do you use Dokkens, ATB's, bumpers, bumper boys, etc?? None of these are "real ducks" and therefore anyone that sees you using them could make the same arguement; why use real ducks? I'm not saying one viewpoint is right or wrong but you have made a stand, do you walk the walk or just talk the talk???


If you don't understand the concept of _training_ with real birds and what it means to the dogs, that's okay. No one trains 100% exclusively with REAL birds. That's either a time, manpower, or expense issue. Regardless, it has NOTHING to do with the reason why it's a negative to show ONLY plastic being retrieved on TV. As I said to Kim Smith above, it you're good with plastic on TV, then you'll be good with losing duck hunting as a sport. Do YOU want to "walk _that_ walk?"



DuckTruk said:


> Really??!! In bed with the enemy?? You are saying that they are supporting the Anti's by using rubber birds?? I guess we all need to train with real birds all the time. I don't have a problem with you not being a fan of the SRS, but this is a bit over the top.


Bob, you of all people know how far those of the PETA mindset will go to further their agendas. While I don't necessarily agree with the "in bed with the enemy" extreme, acceptance does beget confrontation. The bigger picture is not the use of birds in field events; the bigger picture is what can happen to the sport of hunting.



Birdie Retriever said:


> Rubber ducks or Real ducks...regardless the SRS is entertaining TV and that is why I watch it.
> 
> The SRS and their crew have done a lot for HRC and I will continue to support them and the sponsors of SRS and HRC so I can continue watching great dogs doing what they love....RETRIEVING!
> 
> ...


Simple, indeed....but just to be clear, you're good with the option of having ONLY sticks or rubber ducks to retrieve one day down the road, right?



kimsmith said:


> Don't get me wrong and I'm not taking up for him but what difference does 4th make.


Apparently it makes a BIG difference to you in establishing his credibility as a "Field Trial Pro" who happens to run SRS (or maybe, more correctly, a SRS pro who runs FTs). You posted earlier about his running field trials and in particular his Q 4th in Nashville as your "proof" that SRS is bringing dogs to the sport of FTs.

kg


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## PintailAle (Mar 19, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> You can ask around if anyone knows the great FT Pro's and if you are not in the FT game they wouldn't know who they are.


And I would be willing to bet that most FT pros would prefer to keep it that way. 

PintailAle


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Keith, its bringing new people to the DOG GAME. You can't argue the fact that people see these dogs on TV and would love to have one of their own. I said some of these HT Pro's are now running FT's which they didn't before. Are you saying FT/HT are not Political at all. If they are not then I apologize, but I doubt it. Live ducks to PETA is the least of their concerns. Like some posted above they wouldn't want us to have pets at all. Keith you talk about using real ducks being an issue, what if PETA people watched us FF, CC, FTP, and all of the other things we teach our dogs. Ducks would be a mute point. Its a game and some are being very successfully at it. 

OK here is my problem with some you that have posted. Some are against SRS, some are against HRC (I added this one), Some are against HT's. It sounds like the only real TEST is running Field Trails. Instead of sticking together as one big group we can't get along in our dog community. How do you think we can keep our sport alive unless we all stand together. We can't agree on anything, so do you really thing a rubber duck will bring our programs down. I don't care if you run FT's, HT's, SRS, NAHRA or what ever just as long as you get out with your dog and have a good time.


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Keith, its bringing new people to the DOG GAME. You can't argue the fact that people see these dogs on TV and would love to have one of their own. I said some of these HT Pro's are now running FT's which they didn't before. Are you saying FT/HT are not Political at all. If they are not then I apologize, but I doubt it. Live ducks to PETA is the least of their concerns. Like some posted above they wouldn't want us to have pets at all. Keith you talk about using real ducks being an issue, what if PETA people watched us FF, CC, FTP, and all of the other things we teach our dogs. Ducks would be a mute point. Its a game and some are being very successfully at it.
> 
> OK here is my problem with some you that have posted. Some are against SRS, *some are against HRC (I added this one), Some are against HT's.* It sounds like the only real TEST is running Field Trails. Instead of sticking together as one big group we can't get along in our dog community. How do you think we can keep our sport alive unless we all stand together. We can't agree on anything, so do you really thing a rubber duck will bring our programs down. I don't care if you run FT's, HT's, SRS, NAHRA or what ever just as long as you get out with your dog and have a good time.


Kim,

Reference the bold text. I think you are wayyyyyy off base on this. In fact ALL of the field trialer's opinions that I am aware of strongly support HTs. If HTs didn't exist, we would be seeing even larger FT entries. I also don't know of any FT who has it in for HRC. However, I do know quite a few who have run HRC events that truly enjoyed them, including me. Where are you coming up with this stuff?

fp


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Man, I just read through 19 pages of this controversy and I still don't get it. How in the world would PETA have any influence on our field trials? Everything I have ever read about them puts them so far out in wacko left field, that I think the general public, regardless of their lack of interest in hunting, back lashes against the anti-hunters. I have never seen a SRS game on TV, but I have a few FT friends who run them and they say that the game is fun for them and the dogs. 

I understand "give them and inch and they'll take a mile" and the domino effect, but I don't see the rubber duck issue being a result of giving into PETA. It seems to me that some of you are overreacting, but I'm sure things are different back east. Like I said, a PETA demonstration at a field trial would probably stir up a lot of sympathetic support for the dogs and handlers to continue running the way they always have. Just so you know, I run and train for FT, train mostly with birds and bumbers on blinds and I own a few Dokkens, I also hunt around 25 days each fall.

One last point, I think most claims of FT politics is sour grapes by some people who are less than objective about their own dog's performance. Like someone said above, I have personally given wins to good dogs owned and handled by people that I don't like or respect, I know other judges who have done the same.

John


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Who realy gives a rats ass. I like to watch SRS on TV every weekend that I am home on saturday morning at 8:00Am which has been 1 Time in the last 5 years. If they want to use plastic ducks or cow **** ducks it is there game to play. Congratulations to the winner and fianalists on there accomplishments this year. The pros that are running SRS have found a venue that works for them a smart business plan would be to continue doing so. As far as there responsibility to the other retriever sports that is quite a stretch to think that by not using real duck it will draw negative pr to other venues. It is all ready out there the individuals that care about shooting ducks in retriever sports like peta will not go away.
________
EASY VAPE DIGITAL NOT WORKING


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

I would say watching GOG or the SRS really got me into what a dog can really do and had me wanting more for my dogs. So at first I was in awe of it. It isn't what got me wanting a dog but it is what got me wanting more out of my dog. 

I more so swing to the side that they should use real birds. I remember watching the WRC, actually think I have it recorded somewhere on VHS, how funny is that I don't own one anymore, doesn't seem like it was that long ago way before DVR. Anyway I though it was a better game and I liked it more. 

To me the shine has worn off on SRS, it is the same exact thing every week watching it. I don't like all the handling on the marks, don't like the rubber duckies, and here is the part that really gets me. I don't like the commentary. Now they may believe in there heads that they are the top of the line in the retriever world and I know they are way above the level I have ever trained a dog but I have know enough to know that they are not the pinnacle. If they were the best would be running it. To sit there and listen about how they are the superbowl of the dog world and these are the best dogs and dog handlers in the world this and that just gets old to me. When I see Farmer and Lardy out there evey week hen I might start watching more again.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

The only reason I brought up politics in the FT/HT world was because someone said the same thing about SRS. There are politics in just about everything we do, I'm not against it because it's human nature. 

Like I said before if it wasn't the rubber duck issue it would be something else.


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## kbobbjr (Jan 17, 2009)

K G said:


> If you don't understand the concept of _training_ with real birds and what it means to the dogs, that's okay. No one trains 100% exclusively with REAL birds. That's either a time, manpower, or expense issue. Regardless, it has NOTHING to do with the reason why it's a negative to show ONLY plastic being retrieved on TV. As I said to Kim Smith above, it you're good with plastic on TV, then you'll be good with losing duck hunting as a sport. Do YOU want to "walk _that_ walk?"
> 
> kg


I understand the concept of using real birds. If no one trains exclusively with ducks then why should the SRS be required to use ducks exclusively? Sounds like a double standard to me. Anytime any of us trains we are under the scrutiny of the non-hunting public. I would venture to guess that just as many people view us training our dogs using non-bird equipment as watch the SRS. We are just as guilty of perpetuating this problem as the SRS (although we are not on TV). Like it or not we will have to live with the consequences.


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## kbobbjr (Jan 17, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> I don't use rubber ducks, bumpers sometimes, but then again I do not train on a national tv show either so that example is kind of apples to rocks. Thanks for playing though;-)


So you're saying the non-hunting public has never seen you train your dog using non-duck equipment? If so, then good for you but the majority of people have to use public areas to train. That means the non-hunting public sees us using bumpers, rubber ducks, etc to train our dogs. Although I'm not seen by the same number of non-hunting folks as the SRS at one time; collectively we are. If you can't see that then I guess you wouldn't understand the comparison.

Apples to rocks regards.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Where is Paul and his beating the dead horse icon when you need him???


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Steve Hester said:


> Where is Paul and his beating the dead horse icon when you need him???


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

kbobbjr said:


> I would venture to guess that just as many people view us training our dogs using non-bird equipment as watch the SRS. .


Crack is goooood!


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

It's amazing how far off track this has gotten from the original post


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## kbobbjr (Jan 17, 2009)

achiro said:


> Crack is goooood!


Are you speaking from experience?


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

SRS has been around for 10 yrs. now numbers may be down but so is the economy. I would say SRS will be around for a few more yrs. maybe longer only time will tell. Will i still watch it , yes if i am home.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks Ken!!!


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## Kirk D (Apr 3, 2005)

kimsmith said:


> According to EE he ran 7 dogs, that was were I got my information. I'm not sure what year he ran, it could have been a years or 2 ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Keith I'm on the board and heard about it but I haven't talk to J. Paul.


Kim:
My EE records and yours must be different. The only Q I've seen J Paul entered in at Central AR FT was 03/07. Keith Holstead was a judge. Your dog # was correct. J Paul had 7 dogs entered in the Q. My EE records show that Danny Farmer won that Q with Trumarc's Mister Smith. J Paul's dogs obviously had a bad day not receiving a placement or jam. In all there were 19 dogs run by Top SRS Pro's in the Q. Tellous Calhoun did get a JAM. I have never attended an SRS event but realize it is a different game than FT. I know a few of the SRS stars and respect their ability to train outstanding dogs.

Qualifying Winners @ CARC:

05/05 (sanctioned A event) 1st-Mark Miles
03/06 1st-Paul Sletton
03/07 1st-Danny Farmer
10/07 1st-Jan Jacobs
03/08 1st-Joe Harp
10/08 1st-Lance Vines. FYI, my dog got 4th and it was a big deal to 
me. You are obviously much more successful in FT than I
if a 4th "Q" placement is meaningless. Not as sweet as a
2nd but that 4th made the trip home much more enjoyable.
03/09 1st-Joe Harp

I could have missed a trial but could not find J Paul winning a Q @ CARC. I am with Frank P on FT'ers disliking HRC. That is just ridiculous. IMO HRC is an excellent venue. I am a member of EAHRC and help put on that HOT SOB in August every year.

Regards,

Kirk


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Could this be a B.A.S.S. version of SRS International? Maybe in this game it's rubber *dogs* at the "caster's" side since real live dogs don't have much life expectancy over there...

MG


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> So you're saying the non-hunting public has never seen you train your dog using non-duck equipment?


I like that statement, don't throw rocks unless you can say you would go out in front of the non-hunting public and throw dead birds. 

Kirk, I thought it was in Arkansas and I was wrong. I'll find out what Q he won. Also the statement I made about 4th isn't a slam to anyone that places. I'm was just saying it only gives brag rights, also knowing your dog can compete and getting a ribbon. 

I only run HT, AKC and HRC which is what I enjoy. I admire FT people, because they can go out week after week and not come home with ribbons. I do this for enjoyment and relaxation. I can't understand why we as a dog community can't enjoy all dog games. Why would we be against any dog game that people are out training and trying to make their dogs better at what they do or paying someone to do it for them. Like I said before, I think people don't like the idea that these HT Pros are getting the attention they are getting.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

I'd like to extend an incredible offer......

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You must have been a participant to qualify.

Please list your full name along with what color you want.

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(shipping is $9.99 and will be sent first come first serve)

CALL NOW...............

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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Bill Davis said:


> It's amazing how far off track this has gotten from the original post


 
I like green Jello, but only in the summer. I shoot ducks with a SBE using 3 1/2 2's. My uncle had a horse his name was Jack.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kbobbjr said:


> I understand the concept of using real birds. If no one trains exclusively with ducks then why should the SRS be required to use ducks exclusively? Sounds like a double standard to me. Anytime any of us trains we are under the scrutiny of the non-hunting public. *I would venture to guess that just as many people view us training our dogs using non-bird equipment as watch the SRS.* We are just as guilty of perpetuating this problem as the SRS (although we are not on TV). Like it or not we will have to live with the consequences.


This is a stretch of unfathomable proportion......and the SRS folks sure hope you're wrong... :wink:

kg


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I'd like to extend an incredible offer......
> 
> I am giving away a signed Rubber Ducky to the first 20 folks that exit from any further comment on this thread.
> 
> ...


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

hawgsalot said:


> It sure appears that a lot FT guys have to bash everything that's not FTs. I know all the FT dogs are solid but you guys are kidding yourself if you think an fc/afc will waltz in and start dominating SRS. Yea you might smoke the FT series but it's only part of the game and will take some serious training to do both. Are they capable, sure the are. Will the FT guys expand their training to compete, doubtful. I understand why but don't discount the quality of the dogs or Chris/ Lyle, because they've figured out a way to train for both and have some amazing dogs. Oh and there have been SRS dogs that never won a SRS or Crown but did get their FC or AFC, see Alex Washburn's stable. I don't know what that proves other than the standards aren't as far off as some of the FT crews believe.


You seem to believe that FT pros are "afraid of competition" in the SRS, but why is it that almost none of the SRS pros run FTs (succesfully)?

I think that most FT pros have bigger fish to fry such as accumulating points for an FC or AFC title, qualifying for the Nationals, earning an income by winning/placing in FTs, etc. While I'm not saying that FTs are any better than the SRS, I am saying that the FT pros are FT pros for a reason--because they have chosen to focus on titling dogs (FC or AFC) and qualifying for Nationals. If they deviate from this focus, I'm sure their clients would not be too pleased.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I'd like to extend an incredible offer......
> 
> I am giving away a signed Rubber Ducky to the first 20 folks that exit from any further comment on this thread.
> 
> ...


But Ken, you're doggy didn't get the rubber duckies.....you can buy them from www.myAFClostSRS.com




/Paul


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I hear these are big sellers at the SRS events










Got one Ken?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kbobbjr said:


> I understand the concept of using real birds. If no one trains exclusively with ducks then why should the SRS be required to use ducks exclusively? Sounds like a double standard to me. Anytime any of us trains we are under the scrutiny of the non-hunting public. *I would venture to guess that just as many people view us training our dogs using non-bird equipment as watch the SRS. We are just as guilty of perpetuating this problem as the SRS (although we are not on TV).* Like it or not we will have to live with the consequences.


Perhaps one of the most absurd statements of all times. So are you saying you train in a packed football stadium or are you saying SRS has like 12 viewers? Either way you are wrong and totally miss the point


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

No Bad what he is saying do you throw dead ducks in front of people that have not seen our sport. If you are in a local park training, do you use bumpers or real ducks? Not everyone can train on private farms, so would you throw ducks in the family park or would you throw bumpers?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> No Bad what he is saying do you throw dead ducks in front of people that have not seen our sport. If you are in a local park training, do you use bumpers or real ducks? Not everyone can train on private farms, so would you throw ducks in the family park or would you throw bumpers?


No Kim he said JUST AS MANY PEOPLE.....
Keep spinning it any way you want your best argument, that has already been shot down, is that it might bring bad attention to the soprts. That is all you guys have period. Have you missed the point that we as a group own using real birds. I have no problem with it and I will fight the fight when it needs to be fought and I will cuss you and any others who help dig a hole for us to start from

BTW- I do train at several churches and yes I throw birds, but more to the point, how foolish are you to compaire the possibility of a few people watching a guy in a park vs SRS being on national telivision.....wait save your answer I am done with this.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Why should JT spend money on real birds (purchase price, storing, care & maintenance and a Game Steward) vs using rubber duckies his sponsor supplies and PAYS him to use? Plus he doesn't have to lose a wink of sleep worrying about the AH nuts. Heck, he might even get another network to pick it up in the future if VS folds or drops the show.

Sorry folks, but the SRS is strictly made for TV. They're doing everything they can think to do to keep their ratings and sponsorship up. Watching it when I did kinda reminded me of when as a little kid we used to play "Army". Only time it ever got real was when we'd get bored and tie firecrackers to our little plastic infantrymen and throw 'em at each other. (#^&#!! those short fuses!!).

If the VS channel really wanted us to watch the SRS, why air it on mornings when we're either hunting, trialing or training? Either cause we're not their target audience or because its such a poorly watched show that it doesn't get a more prime timeslot. Maybe if we handled our dogs while riding bulls...

Mark


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I know your done Bull and I'm probably done too unless someone else post something for me to argue about. Man I haven't had this much fun in a while.

Bull if you take 1 million trainers across the US and half of them train of public grounds. That is 500,000 people training using what ever training aides they use. I would say most if not all use bumpers or dokens. In the public parks you would probably have at least 5 to 10 people see you train. I would say those numbers are higher than the numbers that watch SRS on TV. Why not get mad at every trainer that doesn't use ducks in public places because they are teaching the public that we can run our dogs using bumpers or dokens. Sorry just had to come up with one more argument. My wife tells me I'm a sore loser, guess I am.......


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> I know your done Bull and I'm probably done too unless someone else post something for me to argue about. Man I haven't had this much fun in a while.
> 
> Bull if you* take 1 million trainers across the US and half of them train of public grounds. That is 500,000 *people training using what ever training aides they use. I would say most if not all use bumpers or dokens. In the public parks you would probably have at least 5 to 10 people see you train. I would say those numbers are higher than the numbers that watch SRS on TV. Why not get mad at every trainer that doesn't use ducks in public places because they are teaching the public that we can run our dogs using bumpers or dokens. Sorry just had to come up with one more argument. My wife tells me I'm a sore loser, guess I am.......


As Dandy Don use to say
If...._ if's and but's were candy and nuts oh what a Christmas we would have_.... big numbers there......500,000 is over 9500 per state I don't know about your state, but I will bet everything I own that there are not 9500 trainers in Florida even in the winter.
I don;t know about a sore loser, but you have interesting math....a million trainers.....I know FT are getting big entries but holy cow batman I think you numbers are a little off


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Heck I had to use big numbers or it wouldn't have look as good.

I knew you couldn't stay away..........


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Heck I had to use big numbers or it wouldn't have look as good.
> 
> *I knew you couldn't stay away..........*


 
Well I didn't want Ken to send me one of those damn rubber ducks


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I called the number and got a busy signal, I guess the first 20 are already gone.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> I hear these are big sellers at the SRS events
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had one right next to my DU sticker but it fell off on my way north going on that hunting trip he invited me on.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Thats funny.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I called the number and got a busy signal, I guess the first 20 are already gone.


I sent them all to Gundog.........

He needed something to play with.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I think I'm going to buy one of the new white and black ones. I need bull's address, so I can send him an early Christmas present. I think if he keeps one with him, he might be able to bond with it. I guess I can get a sticker for him also so he can put it on his dog box.....


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I had one right next to my DU sticker but it fell off on my way north going on that hunting trip he invited me on.


 
Damn you were actually sucker enough to drive somewere to meet him. Heck I only got an invite, but no directions on where to meet. He must like you better than me.....or not


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> Damn you were actually sucker enough to drive somewere to meet him. Heck I only got an invite, but no directions on where to meet. He must like you better than me.....or not


How does JT like Ken better if you know what I mean. Maybe you are the lucky one that didn't get invited. He is from arkansas after all.....


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

maxx said:


> How does JT like Ken better if you know what I mean. Maybe you are the lucky one that didn't get invited. He is from arkansas after all.....


Is this the same Maxx from the WD board ?


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

Jason E. said:


> Is this the same Maxx from the WD board ?


Is it or isn't it? Yes it is why?


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Was just wondering didnt know if u used the same name here. Havent seen u in a while.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Damn you were actually sucker enough to drive somewere to meet him.


Seriously, you have got to know me better than that.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Ok Ken, you need to give away the Doken that you kept for yourself. You are just keeping this thread alive. I tried to call and got a busy signal so send it my way so I don't have to purchase one to send to Bull. Please make it a White and Black one because I think they look cool.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Ok Ken, you need to give away the Doken that you kept for yourself. You are just keeping this thread alive. I tried to call and got a busy signal so send it my way so I don't have to purchase one to send to Bull. Please make it a White and Black one because I think they look cool.


I don't have any Doken's........

ATB's baby.


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

I just browses on Waterdog don't post much over there anymore. Seems to be pretty boring over there. Haven't been doing much training anyway.

Just started to get back into it again and this website gets more traffic and it is way more entertaining.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks, I almost missed up and order the wrong thing. Forgot they were 2 different things, the educated taught the uneducated that SRS uses ATB's instead of Dokens. 

Wait, Bull would you have a problem with SRS if they used Dokens???? Maybe it's just an ATB problem. What does that stand for if we loose having ducks at our ht/ft then ATB stands for All TV to Blame.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Just to keep pokin the dead horse. How many FC/AFC dogs have done the diving err dock dogs. Now that some TV right there.

BTW I do know of at least 1. So does that mean the FT dogs are better ;-)

How many dock dog trainers run FT ?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Steve Amrein said:


> Just to keep pokin the dead horse. How many FC/AFC dogs have done the diving err dock dogs. Now that some TV right there.
> 
> BTW I do know of at least 1. So does that mean the FT dogs are better ;-)
> 
> How many dock dog trainers run FT ?


 
Steve a far better question is how many dock dogs went on to become FC's or AFC's or MH for that matter.....


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Steve a far better question is how many dock dogs went on to become FC's or AFC's or MH for that matter.....


The Garlands had a dog pre titled dog that won the the dock dog championship. Went on to title (real and recognized) and I am pretty sure was a national qualifier and finalist. The dock dog championship title does not show up on his pedigree nor had they any stud requests We bought the backpack that was one of the prizes in a garage sale from them. If I get enough interest in it I am going to put it on EBay along with a squeaky tennis ball and a Marley and me DVD


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Steve Amrein said:


> The Garlands had a dog pre titled dog that won the the dock dog championship. Went on to title (real and recognized) and I am pretty sure was a national qualifier and finalist. The dock dog championship title does not show up on his pedigree nor had they any stud requests We bought the backpack that was one of the prizes in a garage sale from them.* If I get enough interest in it I am going to put it on EBay along with a squeaky tennis ball and a Marley and me DVD*


 
That should set you up for retirement….


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

I believe Lyle Steinman runs a few field trials when he is in Texas. I know River has finished some trials in the US and Canada. At a Kansas City trial she took a second with Dan Heard handling her.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Don't have anything to say, just felt like beating a dead horse.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Dang Ken have you sent me my ATB, I haven't posted on this thread for at least one day. I'm sure glad we have RTF, because my wife has a honey do list and I told her I had more important things to do. Wait got to sign off because she is coming.......


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Dang Ken have you sent me my ATB, I haven't posted on this thread for at least one day. I'm sure glad we have RTF, because my wife has a honey do list and I told her I had more important things to do. Wait got to sign off because she is coming.......


Don't forget to close the porn sites first........


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I need a bandage, couldn't turn off fast enough. Man I don't want to mow the yard, pull the weeds, pick up my clothes, etc but unless I don't want to go to the hospital I better get moving. She only weights around 110 pounds but can throw a mean right.


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

kimsmith said:


> I need a bandage, couldn't turn off fast enough. Man I don't want to mow the yard, pull the weeds, pick up my clothes, etc but unless I don't want to go to the hospital I better get moving. She only weights around 110 pounds but can throw a mean right.


Go for the donkey punch!


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Wow, I've been away up in SD for a week it looks like the Roux/Tyra pup thread is in danger of being run down by this rambling wreck.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

David McLendon said:


> Wow, I've been away up in SD for a week it looks like the Roux/Tyra pup thread is in danger of being run down by this rambling wreck.


Good, it's about time!!


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Steve Hester said:


> Good, it's about time!!


No arguement there.


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