# Would you take dog training lessons



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Did not want to Hijack another thread. I know pros teach their clients how to handle their dogs and there are short weekend seminars on how to train your dog (i.e. Smartworks/ Evan Graham seminars).

But do you think there is a market for a training trainers over a prolonged series of time , not just the weekend tuneup. maybe something geared toward the newbie where you would visit the pro on a weekly basis just like taking golf or tennis lessons

just thinking out of the box regards


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I do it all the time. Give private lessons that is. Usually every two weeks is what works the best.

Angie


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Angie B said:


> I do it all the time. Give private lessons that is. Usually every two weeks is what works the best.
> 
> Angie


Ok thats cool , but are you teaching them to train/handle dogs that you have trained or are they newbies that dont know FF from OB from CC and do you find that they come to "class" wanting to debate you over training regimen (pick one.Lardy, smartworks,Hillman,Farmer,Dobbs etc.)

or scenario 2 : do you train them in one of the above mentioned training regimens ?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Ok thats cool , but are you teaching them to train/handle dogs that you have trained or are they newbies that dont know FF from OB from CC and do you find that they come to "class" wanting to debate you over training regimen (pick one.Lardy, smartworks,Hillman,Farmer,Dobbs etc.)
> 
> or scenario 2 : do you train them in one of the above mentioned training regimens ?


What's the inference here Bon ????? Any pro worth their own salt would have their own program !!! Angie is no exception.

http://www.tiogaretrievers.com/?page_id=2

john


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Ok thats cool , but are you teaching them to train/handle dogs that you have trained or are they newbies that dont know FF from OB from CC and do you find that they come to "class" wanting to debate you over training regimen (pick one.Lardy, smartworks,Hillman,Farmer,Dobbs etc.)
> 
> or scenario 2 : do you train them in one of the above mentioned training regimens ?


No debates... They've read a book, bought a set of DVD's and got their buddies input and they're stuck... 

All training programs are basically the same. The all have the same common format more or less.

They show me what they have done. I then demonstrate to them what they should be doing on one of my dogs. Then I give them a lesson plan to work on. It's open ended as to how many lessons and how often. 

It's usually yard stuff. They also will take advantage of coming out to run marks too. 

Angie


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

No John I guess what I was aiming at is that there are many old time trainers out there that have retired from the rigors of the FT circuit, they have had successful careers, won national titles and pretty much accomplished all their goals, or are just burned out of being on the road week in week out.

case in point someone on here mentioned that their training bird boy was HOF Tommy Sorenson, I can only imagine the plethora of knowledge that a man like that has in him.

I just think that there are some persons out there with a wealth of knowledge and a mentoring spirit that could impart their wisdom to a whole new generation.

in search of a modern day Rex Carr regards


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## Pat Oneill (Jun 10, 2009)

I would take lessons if believed they would help me help my dog optimize time and energy spent in the field. I have tried various resouces. My conculsion is

I think that any student can learn in the classroom, as long as they aware of what is going on in class, right or wrong.
Most programs are common to modern structured format, similair to Rex Carr. All dogs are individual and so are they're experiences in training. I do not believe in cookie cutter training. Lessons are learned long after the schooling. Unfortuantely at the dogs expense.


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## jgrammer (Jun 23, 2008)

Yes! The pro that is training my dog is also training me. Even while she was in basics up at his place, he would have me come up and learn to handle my dog. As I got more proficient, I also got to handle other dogs. When they went to CA/NV for the winter, 4 of us went down for a week to train with them and it was the best vacation I had had in years. I learned so much. And now this summer, while she is home, we go weekly for a lesson and sometimes have an all day or weekend training session with others. They are the best sessions.

And he is teaching me to set up blinds and marks, what the factors are in each scenario. Has us pick out what we think would be good and then he will adjust as needed and explain why. 

And yes, it is harder to train the handler than the dog!!

Jean


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Saw this thread and immediately called Remien. He said we can use help in the desert this winter. So if you don't mind 12 hour days in scorching heat, throwing birds till your arm falls off, being accused of setting FCs back at least to pre derby days in their training and living on a steady diet of Plaid Pantry Burritos then he's your guy.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> No John I guess what I was aiming at is that there are many old time trainers out there that have retired from the rigors of the FT circuit, they have had successful careers, won national titles and pretty much accomplished all their goals, or are just burned out of being on the road week in week out.
> 
> case in point someone on here mentioned that their training bird boy was HOF Tommy Sorenson, I can only imagine the plethora of knowledge that a man like that has in him.
> 
> ...


"THE" people in this sport are huge ego maniacs... Training neophytes day in and day out does not interest them.... Not unless there is money to be made.... 

People taking lessons hardly have the stomach for the likes of Rex Carr...

What do you know of Rex Carr, Bon, and those he schooled????

Angie


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

Most trainers do day training programs where they help people train their dogs -- dogs that the pro, themselves, have not trained. The only issue, which it has historically been for me, is that it can be very difficult to fit in the training day. So I hadn't done much of it until lately, now that I'm only keeping a few dogs in training. 

I require folks to be on the same page. I don't think it makes any sense for a trainer to instruct someone following a different program. It's too confusing for the dog and absolutely just fundamentally does not make sense to have "Angie training someone that's using a clicker for retriever training" for instance. That's an extreme, but still...

If someone's on the same page as me (Lardy) and wants to learn and have my help, I'm glad to help them as much as I can fit in. That's where the trouble comes in when you get to yardwork like double T or pattern blinds. But most people seem to coach through just fine.

Anyway... There is a market for it. People do it all the time. 

-K


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## H2O_Control_guy (Jul 14, 2009)

Hi All,
I'm going to try to shed some light on if there is a market for training the trainer. Please be patient as I'm a little long winded.

I'm in Mpls. I don't know jack about training a dog to the level that you all do. I've had decent hunting dogs, that means they find most of what has been shot, don't run too far out and come when you call them, but nothing anywhere close to the level of performance I've read about here. 

I hunt about 3/4 of the weekends during the season and sneakout when I can during the week. So I'm not just some guy that goes opening weekend and maybe on Thanksgiving.

I started out last fall with a 10 year old lab that has hip displaysia knowing that it would probably be her last year. To top that off she blew out a knee the 2nd week of the season. She's still around (very round), but not able to hunt. 

Started looking for a pup late last fall with three basic criteria. Really solid OFA hips for several generations, not real high strung and some decent field trial/ hunt test background. As you all already know this sort of dog is not bought out of the Sunday paper for $200.

My new dog is now 14 weeks old. I've sent for the Lardy CDs which should arrive tomorrow. Do I want to compete in field trials "not really." Do I want to see if I can take this dog to another level absolutley. Would I be willing to fork over some of my dollars to someone that could help me with the process "you bet."

Hope you'll all be patient with me as I'm sure I'll post some questions that will be a bit naive.

H2O


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

H2O_Control_guy said:


> Hi All,
> I'm going to try to shed some light on if there is a market for training the trainer. Please be patient as I'm a little long winded.
> 
> I'm in Mpls. I don't know jack about training a dog to the level that you all do. I've had decent hunting dogs, that means they find most of what has been shot, don't run too far out and come when you call them, but nothing anywhere close to the level of performance I've read about here.
> ...


Hmmmm??? Sounds familar..... 

Hopefully there is a pro in Minnesota that can help you out.. I know there is one in Texas....

Good Luck....

Angie


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> I guess what I was aiming at is that there are many old time trainers out there that have retired from the rigors of the FT circuit, they have had successful careers, won national titles and pretty much accomplished all their goals, or are just burned out of being on the road week in week out.


I think it depends on the person offering the lesions. One Sunday a few seasons ago two very kind, experienced ladies who were not former professional retriever trainers. But I feel sorta kinda meet the qualifications of your paragraph above (except for the burned out and off the circuit part). Kate Simonds and Betsy Bernhard put on a helpful hints when running your dog training day for the club I am a member of. Sitting there listening to Kate and having her and Betsy commenting on my dog was very cool. I definitely would pay them for a couple years of that.
On the other hand there are a few folks who I have interacted with during my humble time working my clubs and the neighbor clubs trials that also exactly fit the paragraph above. If they suddenly wanted to mentor me, I would pay them to go away.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I run two classes a week...one for retrievers and one for pointing dogs. Each class has a max of five people and meets one night a week, for two hours. Each week, they work on a new skill, and take it home to work on before the next session ("homework assignment"). It's all basic skills, and the owners are the ones who usually need the training...but working their dogs under supervision helps them learn. Plus, watching the others work on the same skills helps too. Most of the people in class are beginners with their first dog. There is a huge market for basic hunting dogs, and a ton of people who want to learn. Some will likely go on to do hunt tests, but most will just have a family dog that hunts a few weeks a year. 
I also have clients who take private lessons, usually once a week or once every other week. A few of them come to work on FF so they've got someone to show them how and coach them through it.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

I think for the lessons to be beneficial you would have to go on a consistant basis for quite some time. Watching it and actually doing it are two different things.

I also think for the instructor to make it worth their time, have the facilities, the knowledge, and the help to present the proper mechanics.......... it would be costly.

In the end, you would be better off just putting your dog on a pro's truck and learning from them everyday if you felt like it. Or at least whenever you wanted and the trainer was training.

The concept is a great one if allowed. I'd love to pay someone like Farmer or Rorem for a couple of 1 on 1 sessions with just a few dogs, their help, their grounds, and nobody else around. 

But why would they do that when they can have 25 holes filled for $1000 a month? You think clients would be cool with their trainers helping out a non client on their time?

Now, on a different topic, I'm a firm believer in "feel" for handling and executing while training. Some can dictate it better than anyone in the country, but actually applying it is a complete different concept.

I believe one can learn to become a better handler, but they either have that "feel" or they don't to become a good handler.

It's just like a middle infielder. You take a latin guy with smooth hands and quick feet, you can teach them to become a shortstop or a second baseman. But you ain't ever gonna make Tori Hunter a SS even though he is fast and quick. Just doesn't have that "feel".


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## H2O_Control_guy (Jul 14, 2009)

Ken,

You make a good point about the money and it probably would take a long time. You're also probably right about the sending the dog away part.

Personal experience from paying professional baseball coaches to work with my son is that I learned almost as much as he did by observing and listening and was able to reinforce the lessons when the pro had gone on to other clients. I think working with a Pro trainer would be a similar experience.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

H2O_Control_guy said:


> Ken,
> 
> You make a good point about the money and it probably would take a long time. You're also probably right about the sending the dog away part.
> 
> Personal experience from paying professional baseball coaches to work with my son is that I learned almost as much as he did by observing and listening and was able to reinforce the lessons when the pro had gone on to other clients. I think working with a Pro trainer would be a similar experience.


The period of time when I learned the most about handling, training, and reading dogs was when I was able to visit and train with a pro on a daily basis.

The period of time when I actually got better at handling, training, and reading dogs was when I actually trained mine on a daily basis after.

There is no secret formula.

Learn it, study it, and do it.

If you have good "feel", A GOOD DOG, and can apply the two in a working environment.........you should be become a successful dog person in whatever arena you chose to perform with your dog.


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## DenverB2B (Feb 22, 2009)

Bruce MacPherson said:


> Saw this thread and immediately called Remien. He said we can use help in the desert this winter. So if you don't mind 12 hour days in scorching heat, throwing birds till your arm falls off, being accused of setting FCs back at least to pre derby days in their training and living on a steady diet of Plaid Pantry Burritos then he's your guy.


Oh Bruce. You have such a way of being bruttally honest.

Ill keep my day job, Regards.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Angie B said:


> "THE" people in this sport are huge ego maniacs... Training neophytes day in and day out does not interest them.... Not unless there is money to be made....
> 
> People taking lessons hardly have the stomach for the likes of Rex Carr...
> 
> ...


Angie, I am a middle aged man in my early 50's. I started dabbling in this game in the early 70's when Rex Carr was teaching the likes of Judy (Weikel) Aycock, Lanse Brown, and others and his assistants were the likes of Jim Dobbs in Escalon Ca and the northern Cal valley, my brother's second dog was named John Rex Rascal as a tribute to the three men that influenced the way we trained, John Luther and Rex Carr, and Ray Goodrich's NAFC FC Ray's Rascal (sire). so I have had a chance to hear firsthand from those that trained directly with Rex not second or third hand info with someone elses interpretation.

for example when Lanse tells me about how he, Dana (ex wife),and the Belmonts did things a certain way, I can take that to the bank versus someone here in the 09's that wasnt even alive then but wants to tell me what they think Mr. Carr meant in his teachings

I just think there are so many people out there with knowledge to share, there is a man in particular who is on this board who is a past National winner and National judge and in the times I have had to talk with him seems to have more knowledge in his left testicle than I could hope to have in a lifetime, those are the kind of guys I want to spend a month training with


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> I am a middle aged man in my early 50's. I started dabbling in this game in the early 70's when Rex Carr was teaching the likes of Judy (Weikel) Aycock, Lanse Brown, and others .............for example when Lanse tells me about how he, Dana (ex wife),and the Belmonts did things a certain way, *I can take that to the bank *


Bon, If The guy you are referring to, is the guy that I'm thinking about... *He* told* me* that while they(the Carr disciples) were with Rex " they (along with Rex) _ruined _more dogs than they _made_". 
It gets worse than that but I'll stop there................

With you being in the know so to speak... would you care to comment on the validity of that statement ??? ;-) 

Rhetorically speaking regards
john


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

*



Would you take dog training lessons

Click to expand...

no, I wouldn't*


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> "THE" people in this sport are huge ego maniacs... Training neophytes day in and day out does not interest them.... Not unless there is money to be made....


Spot on. On this side of the Atlantic too.

On the" training the trainer" thing I recently invested in a video camera with the idea of showing handlers just how (in)consistent they are in giving commands and signals to their justifiably uncomprehending dogs.

How deeply popular that move was! 

Some folks just don't have any dog sense, can't see what it's all about and whilst being nice people are unprepared to work hard enough to earn the Boy Scout badge. The ultimate losers, inevitably, are the dogs.

Given that I'm just an interested amateur and don't charge anything (well OK, you can buy me a couple of pints) I sympathise with the Pros. 

regards
Eug


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

My way of taking dog lessons is not for everybody, but it works for me. Go throw birds for a big time pro everyday for a month. You work your tail off for the tips, but when you use them in your own dogs and keep coming back for more, he will give you more when you're ready.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bon, I think the demand for this would depend on a lot of things, not the least of which is geography and what we marketing types call the "demographics" of the audience.

I know someone currently doing this and while I know he enjoys it and is making a few bucks, he's certainly not making a living at it. 

Someone looking to supplement thier retirement and pay for thier own travel expenses / entry fees can be satisfied with it, but I don't think it's a living by any means.

Oh and to answer your question my answer is "no" I would not pay for dog lessons. I have had such great coaching from my amatuer mentors that I have no reason to do so.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Bon, If The guy you are referring to, is the guy that I'm thinking about... *He* told* me* that while they(the Carr disciples) were with Rex " they (along with Rex) _ruined _more dogs than they _made_".
> It gets worse than that but I'll stop there................
> 
> With you being in the know so to speak... would you care to comment on the validity of that statement ??? ;-)
> ...


John , I dont know exactly what you inference is or what you are asking , I am not saying I am in the know, Angie just asked what I knew about Rex Carr and I was trying to show that I am not some kid that just heard about his name .Seems to me you might be trying to stir the pot in regards to Rex and Co. ruining dogs, thats how rumors and accusations fly in the dog training world.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Very few people are like Ken Guthrie describes in his post. There are few who can take the ball and run with it.,,,they have that "feel" and go fast and far.
And there are others who are hard working and learn and diligently apply and quickly see through trial and error what is needed.
But on average it takes many many years to become proficiant

Its the same with teaching. Some great trainers are poor teachers and some average trainers are great teachers.
Some are great at teaching the game and not so great at teaching the training of the dog or the training of the handler. Some are great at teaching the handler but not the dog or the game,,,,and some are great at teaching how to teach dogs and not the teaching of the game or the handler phewwww.

If your just learning you probably don't need Rex Carr to learn from.
You can benefit from most anyone who can throw a bumper and gets out of the house to train once in a while and go from there. .
But if your at the top looking for that next edge then you will have to look far and wide and it may require a guru.

The cheapest way to learn is like DT4God does. Throw birds all day for a pro.
There are levels of learning and sometimes the guru doesn't have what it takes to teach people foundational stuff but is great with teaching the heady stuff. and vise versa. Knowing how to train dogs is different than knowing how to train people.

The fastest way to learn and build proper habits is to have a 1 on 1 with a good people trainer of dogs and have them crituque your every move. People are by far harder to train than dogs,,so it takes a good people trainer who trains dogs to get the job done. 

Or do like most ,,,find a training group and enjoy the trip.

Now are we all confused?

Pete


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

My Dad told me "Son, everyone can teach you something." I have learned quite a bit from throwing marks, planting blinds for better trainers than I am. When you are looking in at the line you can see how a dog is set up on a marking series. Watching a blind being run gives you an idea of where to handle. AFTER training if you are lucky if you have any questions of "Why did you do that? or why did you handle there....you can get them answered.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Bon,

Rex is no different then any other dog trainer these days. He trained dogs for his clients and they came out and learned. Day trainers came out and threw birds and ran their dogs in the rotation.

Rex wasn't or isn't special in that regard. He did have a new progressive training program that was intriguing.... 

From what I understand from friends who had dogs with Rex, that training with Rex was pretty rough. He was very hard on his clients mentally and was pretty abusive verbally. Especially if you were a woman. Who nowadays would put up with that? Nor should they. People pay a lot of money to get their dogs trained, they want to learn. Not pay to be condescended to or belittled... 

I know you have Lanse, Judy and Rex on a pedistal and that's all well and good. But they are a rather odd bunch in many respects....

Who are you Bon and who is your brother. I'm curious??? 

Angie


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Angie B said:


> Bon,
> 
> Rex is no different then any other dog trainer these days. He trained dogs for his clients and they came out and learned. Day trainers came out and threw birds and ran their dogs in the rotation.
> 
> ...


Lanse and Judy on a pedestal...absolutely.....Rex Carr never met the man have heard similar stories, tremendous respect for his impact on his students and on the game itself

As for me...as I stated in another thread I am a nobody, never produced an AA dog nor titled one, have run trials back in my youth, still love this game and the people and opportunities it has introduced me to. I even remember back to the Jim Swan era in NTEX because I lived down the road in Lake Dallas..My brother Clint currently campaigns a couple of AA dogs in the Boise area as his real job(medical practice) allows, they are currently on Chris LaCross truck for the summer. He and Lanse have been friends for some thirty years and has been a friend to my family throughout that time. Clint and Dr EdA were at A&M at the same time and trialed against each other in the Honcho days


Riding my brother's coat tails regards


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> John , I dont know exactly what you inference is or what you are asking , I am not saying I am in the know, Angie just asked what I knew about Rex Carr and I was trying to show that I am not some kid that just heard about his name .Seems to me you might be trying to stir the pot in regards to Rex and Co. ruining dogs, thats how rumors and accusations fly in the dog training world.



..."thats how rumors and accusations fly in the dog training world.'' 

Really ? You claim to talk to the guy, so the next time that you do ask him directly.

Take it to the bank regards,

john


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Clint who??? Yea,,, you say you are a nobody but I'd still like a real name to the post if you don't mind???

I know Chris well, saw him at every hunt test I was this spring... Nice guy....

I love teasing you Bon. You have such a doe eye'd attitude about this sport. If you spent time in this sport day and day out, especially around the_ Big_ personalities, the stars would soon be gone from your eyes.....

Angie


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Most trainers do day training programs where they help people train their dogs -- dogs that the pro, themselves, have not trained. The only issue, which it has historically been for me, is that it can be very difficult to fit in the training day. So I hadn't done much of it until lately, now that I'm only keeping a few dogs in training.
> 
> I require folks to be on the same page. I don't think it makes any sense for a trainer to instruct someone following a different program. It's too confusing for the dog and absolutely just fundamentally does not make sense to have "Angie training someone that's using a clicker for retriever training" for instance. That's an extreme, but still...
> 
> ...


As a newbie and someone who generally knows squat about retriever training I second this. I try to go out and train with Kristie as often as possible. Two things are going on during these days: 1.) I am able to utilize equipment I do not have and have more BB's in the field throwing, and 2.) she is teaching me how to train MY dog by watch me work using her setups.

This is money well spent in my book and will most likely end with me owning a MH where as without this (and going it alone) I would probably be just shooting for a really good meat dog.

Jason


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## RedstarKennels (Dec 22, 2007)

You Betcha... If it weren't for Darrin Morman...I don't know where I would be!!!! He is the Best for Me and My dog...and I am greatful to him putting up with my almost DAILY Sessons...Cause I am not a Youngster...and the Input Feed...is a "Trickle Feed" for me


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Angie B said:


> Clint who??? Yea,,, you say you are a nobody but I'd still like a real name to the post if you don't mind???
> 
> I know Chris well, saw him at every hunt test I was this spring... Nice guy....
> 
> ...


I'll vouch for his brother Clint Mallari as I have run against him for quite a few years. He has good dogs and is a good handler. As for Bon, I always assumed that was his real name and he is exactly who he purports to be. I'd rather deal with a doe eyed idealist than a jaded cynic, but I know what you are saying about oversized egos in our sport, it's just that FTs are hyper competitive and that competition attracts big egos.

As for the originial question, I think the best way to become a good handler is to get a well bred pup and either join up with a dedicated group of really experienced amateurs or a good (in teaching and training) Pro, and dedicate years of throwing birds, listening, asking questions, reading Retrievers Online, watching videos and running trials. After a while it starts to sink in. A good dog helps the process along to.

John


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I would LOVE to throw birds and be trained by my trainer with my dogs. They would respect me more (maybe!) and hopefully I wouldn't screw them up so much at home. Now if I could just win the lottery so that I could quit my day job to make this a reality.....


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## joshfcb (Aug 27, 2008)

I think you are right about gearing it towards the newbie. 

I currently meet with a pro once a week for an hour. I have done this through obedience, FF, CC and we just started handling. 

During the obedience section, she would work the dog for 30 minutes and them train me on what to do and how for the last 30 minutes. Now that we are working in the field, she typically is with me and the dog for the entire time and relies on a high school kid to load birds, etc. 

We are constantly talking about what to watch for in certain situations, how to correct it. Every week she give me an "assignment" for the week. 

It works out great for me and I have learned a lot. My dog gets great training, I learn some of the tricks of the trade and it is a heck of lot cheaper. I think she normally charges $650/month to board but she charges $25/hour the way I do it.

Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages, but in my opinion, it is the best way to do it for someone who wants to be involved. I would have a hard time dropping my dog off for 6 months +.

Just my 2 cents.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

firehouselabs said:


> I would LOVE to throw birds and be trained by my trainer with my dogs. They would respect me more (maybe!) and hopefully I wouldn't screw them up so much at home. Now if I could just win the lottery so that I could quit my day job to make this a reality.....


You are thinking way too much into this. This is like the people who say Starbucks only sells $5 coffee. Every time I go there I get a coffee as big as my head for $1.80. Training with my Pro does not require me to win the lottery and is at a convenient enough time so I do not have to quit my job. If you can afford to own a lab then you can afford what I pay to train one.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I took lessons (and occasionally still take short lessons). Every penny and moment of time was worth a thousand times what I paid. This pro does a lot of one hour lessons, small groups, small groups over a couple of days, etc. I think schedule-wise it's very hard on him, but I know he feels it's important and valuable for him, his business, the people he teaches and the dogs. I never added up the time and money I spent, but whatever it is it was a bargain and I'll always feel indebted. 

So yes, I would (have, and will) take lessons. It was one of the smartest and luckiest things I did. (The other lucky thing was having some other terrific training partners, whom I don't want to minimize, met through the local club--I've just been really lucky.)


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I would love to take lessons, if I had more time and money.

Mostly it's the time issue. I wish I could spend lots of time with my pro, but I have to keep the business going...


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

The reason I would need to win the lottery is so that I could quit my job and train during the day when my young son is in school. Since my trainer lives an hour away it is very difficult for me to work all day (until 6:00pm), pick up Gage from daycare, feed him, find ANOTHER babysitter (no way am I going to try to keep him entertained while trying to learn how to be a better owner/trainer) and then drive an hour to get in maybe 1 hours worth of instruction and then drive back only to be able to put Gage to bed. Repeat as necessary, which is daily until both my trainer and I feel that I am competent enough to run an O/H qual. 
Plus, I have multiple dogs and none of them are going to train exactly the same so I would like to learn to tailor my training methods to suit their needs.
And yes, it would be nice to be able to compensate my trainer for his teaching skills with something other then the normal training fees he is getting, which I would be able to do with the lottery money as well.


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## labman13 (May 11, 2009)

Angie B said:


> No debates... They've read a book, bought a set of DVD's and got their buddies input and they're stuck...
> Angie


Angie, your a psychic. I've learned there is a lot missing in the books and dvd's. I just started paying for hour lessons while I decide if I want to keep my dog there for a month. I should have done this a long time ago. I'm mainly looking for help with force fetch and cc. It's worth every penny! The retriever club is great, but it's not all that I thought it would be. I needed something more. When I work through some problems and I'm having more success I'll go back. I can tell the retriver club will be fun but you don't always get the best advice there. I don't mind spending 60 bucks an hour from a guy with a **** load of ribbons hanging on his wall. It's well worth it, plus I don't have to hear some amature regurgitate Lardy dvd's all day.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

The answer to your question is yes, I would take dog training lessons. Matter of fact, I learn something new every time I train my dogs. They are amazing teachers!

Lisa


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Angie B said:


> Clint who??? Yea,,, you say you are a nobody but I'd still like a real name to the post if you don't mind???
> 
> I know Chris well, saw him at every hunt test I was this spring... Nice guy....
> 
> ...


I never thought I would say it, but I agree with you on this one.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

labman13 said:


> It's well worth it, plus I don't have to hear some amature regurgitate Lardy dvd's all day.


That describes me perfectly say 5 or 6 years ago...

Although in my case put newbie in place of amateur. In fact amateur would overstate my competence level today!


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## choch2odog (Feb 8, 2005)

A few years ago a local HT/FT pro was kind enough to do a training seminar as a benfit to our club. I went to support the club and the pro.

I had a number of epiphanys that day. It helped to lay a foundation to which I refer to nearly every day of training. He later did a handeling seminar, which I missed, probably has cost me a few ribbons over the years.

My answer is yes go. Take in a seminar, throw birds ask questions watch and learn. See the type of setups they run, look at the factors that are incorporated in those set-ups. Watch how when and why they correct.

It is true that there is no substitute for handeling dogs. The more dogs you are exposed to the more issues you confront and correct. The better feel you will get. You will get better at reading terrain, wind and how they will influence dog behavior.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

firehouselabs said:


> I would LOVE to throw birds and be trained by my trainer with my dogs. They would respect me more (maybe!) and hopefully I wouldn't screw them up so much at home. Now if I could just win the lottery so that I could quit my day job to make this a reality.....


I didn't mean that you have to train everyday. I also work a full time job in my own business and my pro lives an hour away. I try to spend one weekend day each week training with him. I also used to be part of an awsome amateur group of four other working guys in my area. where we would train 2-3 hours after work three days a week. That one weekend day a week with a pro adds up over the course of a few years, plus my wife and I take our vacation in the winter and train with our pro for two weeks down south in warmer weather when our dogs are on his truck.

I think you would also learn a lot in a weekend seminar, but nothing beats having a pro scold you, err I mean coach you over and over again as you make handler mistakes. It is also very helpful having a good pro make the distinction between lack of effort and simple mistake on the dog's part to you. After some time you become much better at reading your dog. 

I guess my point was there are many avenues to becoming a better trainer, and the dedicated amateur will try to take advantage of all of them, including reading post on this forum

John


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

greg magee said:


> I never thought I would say it, but I agree with you on this one.


She's too old for you greg

john


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

john fallon said:


> She's too old for you greg
> 
> john


This from Methuselah?? 

Angie


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Angie B said:


> This from Methuselah??
> 
> Angie




Don't know.... Maybe it was just the lighting when they took that picture but....


john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> She's too old for you greg
> 
> john


How do you know John? He could be a licensed Cougar Hunter;-)


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> How do you know John? He could be a licensed Cougar Hunter;-)


Now that was witty,,, Not too many on this board would appreciate that....

But I did.... 

Angie


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Go read Howard N's signature line....that was one piece of advice given to me that has sunk in. You can watch from the side lines all you want, but if you never put a hand over a dog what good does it do?

FOM


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Bon,
> 
> Rex is no different then any other dog trainer these days. He trained dogs for his clients and they came out and learned. Day trainers came out and threw birds and ran their dogs in the rotation.
> 
> Rex wasn't or isn't special in that regard.


Wow...Angie, gal, this whole post of yours has me rather surprised. Talk about some blanket statements... First of all, Rex was very different from many other dog trainers, even in this first regard you mention. He had a special insight to both dogs and people that not every dog trainer these days has...simply put. To say they are all about the same would not be an accurate statement. 



> He did have a new progressive training program that was intriguing....


Intriguing? I do hope you were trying to be coy... Since virtually every dog trainer in the country today uses at least portions of his training program and methods. 



> From what I understand from friends who had dogs with Rex, that training with Rex was pretty rough. He was very hard on his clients mentally and was pretty abusive verbally. Especially if you were a woman. Who nowadays would put up with that? Nor should they. People pay a lot of money to get their dogs trained, they want to learn. Not pay to be condescended to or belittled...


Really a blanket statement now. By the way, I am a woman, last time I checked, and thus from that standpoint alone your statement is inaccurate.

Rex didn't get up every morning and decide before he ever went out the door to be "very hard on his clients mentally" and to be "pretty abusive verbally" at all. Some folks never saw where he was coming from when he took a hard line...others did. If you're interested, please read what Pat Burns had to say regarding Rex...in the book, when it's done...or, I'd be glad to send that passage to you at that time if you're interested. Just one immediate thought that comes to mind. Did he take a hard line all the time, daily, hourly? For crying out loud. No. With every client, every day? No. 

However, I do remember lots of mornings when he instructed me to meet him at daybreak at CL-2 so that we could train a few dogs before everyone else got there...one on one. Really a mean, heartless, cruel, abusive man, to be sure. _*Not.*_ 



> I know you have Lanse, Judy and Rex on a pedistal and that's all well and good. But they are a rather odd bunch in many respects....


Angie, I think that most of us in this dog game are rather odd in at least a few respects...and that includes you and me...

By the way, Rex spent and invested and poured all kinds of quality time into trainers that wanted to learn how to train. Which I believe was the subject of this thread. 

Thanks for reading...hope you are doing well.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

I would have loved to even just sit and watch Rex and would have enjoyed getting a butt chewing from him even more...

Had some seriously tough and at times flat mean coaches in my day, men I will always respect and look up to for many reasons - regards,


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> How do you know John? He could be a licensed Cougar Hunter;-)


If their over fourty and still in the clubs them kids can have them

john


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

john fallon said:


> She's too old for you greg
> 
> john


John, I'm not the one who likes my women right off the bus stop, I like a little experience.;-)


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

What little bit I know about these hounds, I learned from a woman that I worked for. I truely respected her and still do. She could make me feel like a genuine idiot on a daily basis ( without saying a word) and I'm sure I needed it. I'm positive that made me sharper in the end. In hindsight, I should have been paying her, instead of her paying me. For anyone throwing birds for a pro to learn; try to work out a deal where at least occasionally, you can sit on a bucket and watch their yard program. I think for a novice, it doesn't do you any good to figure out how to handle an advanced dog, if you don't know how he got to that level to begin with. 
Just my opinion.


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

When our pro is teaching clients, I have seen him yell equally intensely at both men and women, but the ones he cared the most about and the ones who really wanted to learn, got it the hardest. It seemed to me. Teaches one to "dig in" in the face of adversity.
Lynn


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> try to work out a deal where at least occasionally, you can sit on a bucket and watch their yard program. I think for a novice, it doesn't do you any good to figure out how to handle an advanced dog, if you don't know how he got to that level to begin with.


I hope everyone, especially the newbies to the sport, rereads the above. It is so true.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Howard N said:


> I hope everyone, especially the newbies to the sport, rereads the above. It is so true.


Howard, dont know where you got that quote but you hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what got my brother and I discussing the situation...many pros can teach a trainer to maintain an QAA dog but most newbies dont even know where or how to get started which is evident in the questions asked by many on here....and what is more surprising is that many on here dont know either because they havent taken a dog from the litter to the line without the use of professional help. I revisited that scenario in the two weeks that I got to train with Chris LaCross before the Utah FT's, sure we did the more mature setups in the am session but to sit and watch him do yard work in the pm with the pups was almost as much fun because it reminded me about the building blocks that are needed for having a good dog


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

I don't care if it's a pro or your mom, get someone to stand behind you and see how well you line your dog up!

Training or running, I find distressing the "trouble" that dogs get in because they were poorly lined up In my experience it's not just rookies that are sometime clueless to how poorly they line up their dogs.


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Training or running, I find distressing the "trouble" that dogs get in because they were poorly lined up In my experience it's not just rookies that are sometime clueless to how poorly they line up their dogs.


OUCH! You sound like my pro every time I train or run a trial. 

Buck


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> I don't care if it's a pro or your mom, get someone to stand behind you and see how well you line your dog up!
> 
> ...


I love my mom, but I can't think of anything more intensely frustrating than having her behind me telling me how to line my dog up.

:shock:

Just thinking about it is making me tear up a little... And I'm feeling the intense need to bake cookies for a certain pro and some training partners... I don't appreciate them nearly enough...


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

moorelabs said:


> When our pro is teaching clients, I have seen him yell equally intensely at both men and women, but the ones he cared the most about and the ones who really wanted to learn, got it the hardest. It seemed to me. Teaches one to "dig in" in the face of adversity.
> Lynn


Good post, Lynn. Sounds like any really good coach I ever had from when I started in little league through when I played back in College.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Buck Mann said:


> OUCH! You sound like my pro every time I train or run a trial.
> 
> Buck


I stood behind one client once and had them line up on a blind. When they though the dog was right I walked right up behind them and had them tell the dog to sit and move away. The dog didn't budge and they got to see where actually they had the dog lined up.

The sound of an ego being shattered was deafening.



*disclaimer: I've pointed more then a few in the wrong direction*


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

One little trick is to take your hand, run it up dog's spine to head. 
If hand ends up pointing at bird, dog is straight.

SHEA, spine, head, eyes, attitude.


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## Certainty (Apr 17, 2008)

To the original question, in a heartbeat. My trainer helps me a lot, but lives far enough away to make it hard. She is always eager to help me advance but the distance makes it difficult.


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## eazy89 (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm a newbie and would go in a heart beat. Do you know of anyone doing that in florida or georgia?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

moorelabs said:


> When our pro is teaching clients, I have seen him yell equally intensely at both men and women, but the ones he cared the most about and the ones who really wanted to learn, got it the hardest. It seemed to me. Teaches one to "dig in" in the face of adversity.
> Lynn


But why does he need to yell period??? Why??? I'm sure Lynn,,, you and your husband are smart, intelligent people. You're paying your pro to train your dog and train you... Why all the yelling??

Can you hear and process what you need without the drama??? Are you willing to be yelled at by your superiors at work so you will "dig in?"

I've been trained by the same type of coach with horses and dogs and personally I can do without all the "noise"....

I wouldn't subject my clients to such nor would I put up with the like from any pro or amateur. Life is too short and this sport is too damn expensive...

This sport is where people spend their extra income. It's a passion that they want to embrace and enjoy. So why does negative coaching have to come into play???

I don't think it has to. This new generation has a whole different attitude about this sport and life in general....

IMHO

Angie


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Angie B said:


> But why does he need to yell period??? Why??? I'm sure Lynn,,, you and your husband are smart, intelligent people. You're paying your pro to train your dog and train you... Why all the yelling??
> 
> Can you hear and process what you need without the drama??? Are you willing to be yelled at by your superiors at work so you will "dig in?"
> 
> ...


Although I personally don't yell at anyone I'm coaching, I know very successful coaches who do it. When I was a competitive figure skater (rollerskating), we had one coach who was a total a-hole, cursing and everything, but ALL of his students were nationally competitive (well most). He was a total jerk, but he drove people to work and work hard and succeed. I think yelling, although it's not something I chose to do MOST of the time, is a successful tactic in pushing people to succeed, esp in sports...

It works with certain people in certain places. Again, not MY choice, but i can understand esp if someone has been repeating something forever. I prefer humiliating people in front of a gallery for their repeated mistakes instead of yelling at them.... LOL. Whatever it takes to get the message across, I guess.

-K


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Angie B said:


> But why does he need to yell period??? Why??? I'm sure Lynn,,, you and your husband are smart, intelligent people. You're paying your pro to train your dog and train you... Why all the yelling??
> 
> Can you hear and process what you need without the drama??? Are you willing to be yelled at by your superiors at work so you will "dig in?"
> 
> ...


Hmmmm, because he learned from Rex???? He doesn't "yell" at my husband because he respects him, but I am just learning, so he is repeating his point strongly...we'll put it that way. I am a teacher, so I know where it comes from. I can take it, and will be back for more in October!


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## BrianG. (Jun 30, 2004)

I did everytime I trained with Randy Bohn. When he was running his dogs I would ask him why he did something or ask him would you do this, I have even went out with the training group without a dog and watch and threw birds just to pick his brain and watch him run dogs.
________
AMERICAN IDOL FORUMS


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Angie B said:


> But why does he need to yell period??? Why??? I'm sure Lynn,,, you and your husband are smart, intelligent people. You're paying your pro to train your dog and train you... Why all the yelling??
> 
> Can you hear and process what you need without the drama??? Are you willing to be yelled at by your superiors at work so you will "dig in?"
> 
> ...


Hell, Angie, my trainer yells at me but it's usually 'cause I haven't paid him;-)


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

First yeah I'd pay for a program like this.




Angie B said:


> But why does he need to yell period??? Why??? I'm sure Lynn,,, you and your husband are smart, intelligent people. You're paying your pro to train your dog and train you... Why all the yelling??
> 
> Can you hear and process what you need without the drama??? Are you willing to be yelled at by your superiors at work so you will "dig in?"
> 
> ...


I agree with you Angie. I DO NOT like being yelled at. It gets my hackles up and the only person that I let yell at me is my wife. Others can raise their voice or get mad at me and that's fine. Funny story, I had a boss threaten to kick my azz and poke me in the chest three times if I ever designed a connection a certain way. The only thing that kept me from laying him out was how I would explain to my wife why I was unemployed(wife was in school at the time) and had to be bailed out of the Detroit jail.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

moorelabs said:


> Hmmmm, because he learned from Rex???? He doesn't "yell" at my husband because he respects him, but I am just learning, so he is repeating his point strongly...we'll put it that way. I am a teacher, so I know where it comes from. I can take it, and will be back for more in October!


Lynn, better you get yelled at by the pro than by your husband. Lots of silent rides home. I learned that in reverse when I gave my suggestions to hubby. Then the yelling really started. 

Helen


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

There is a line between yelling at someone and being verbally abusive. John Luther used to yell at me for not throwing the bird in the correct spot or proper trajectory,i think he also wanted to see if I was emotionally tough enough to play these games even to this day my brother and I will jaw at each other but as he tells me " this aint a game for cry babies, if you cant take it get out of the game"..its not a tough guy sport, its a tough minded sport..big difference


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

The tough pro trainer "coaches" that I know don't yell but they can be so sarcastic in their coaching that you might prefer yelling. People learn from them just the same. I'm happy to say that the pro that I have been with for almost 15 years is a very good teacher, he is good at knowing when to quietly instruct and when to call you out for being a big dummy. His usual way of letting you know you screwed up a handle was to say "thank you for your fifty bucks", meaning you just lost your dog and if this was a trial you would have wasted an entry fee, now it should be $80.00.

John


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## jojoe (Oct 5, 2007)

To answer the origional question, maybe. 

I have been fortunate to find a group (groups actually) of successful amateur trainers that were more than willing to assist me in our (my dog & I) training. The key is in the student putting in the effort to learn.

My main 'trainer' takes me to task only when I've repeated an error - yell, well volume couldn't be worse than the contempt he tries to conceal. He gets his point accross. And in so doing, makes me a better trainer.

There are members of each of my amateur groups that currently, or have in the recent past trained with notable pros. Once I feel I've reached a level in my training ability that approaches the ability of my amateur training mentors(will be years), I will be more than happy to seek a new mentor (pro) and I will be happy to compensate him/her for his teachings. In grade school we call them teachers, in college we call them professors.

Cheers


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Lynn and I use the same pro. You have to keep in mind that he does not have an "indoor voice" (i.e. quiet) to start with. When he is passionate about something, he does raise his voice. 

He also swears like a sailor (which he got from his mother by the way ) and that may add to the fact that he sounds like he's yelling.

The only time I've ever heard him really yell like he meant it was when I wanted to take Rev home to breed her. He loved that little dog and wanted to make her a Field Champion and not "waste time" being a breeding bitch. I yelled back. I'm pretty sure one of us hung up on each other. I called back to apologize and he said he was about to do the same.

Passion can do that to a person, whether in personal/intimate relationships or in dog training. I don't have a problem with it as long as the intent is positive and not cruel.


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## jollydog (Jul 10, 2006)

Being fairly new to the field trial game I would take lessons in a heartbeat. I run my own dog & love doing it. I have been fortunate enough to be around some of the " Big Personalities' of the game & found them to be nothing but helpful and encouraging to someone who is trying to soak up as much info as possible all with the knowledge I would never be a potential client. I would also love to have had the opportunity 
to train with Rex Carr-would have found a way to come up with the money.Some things you can't put a price on & training with him is one of them.
Sylvia McClure


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Angie B said:


> I wouldn't subject my clients to such nor would I put up with the like from any pro or amateur. Life is too short and this sport is too damn expensive...


On the other hand, I would not expect a pro to change his/her personality to suit his/her clients. If he/she crosses the line, people will leave. I don't see anyone leaving our pro lately.

If it's productive for both dog and handler, you're getting your money's worth, right?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Passion can do that to a person, whether in personal/intimate relationships or in dog training


Very good point Melanie.


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

im with jollydog luckly i found a very good trainer can call him any time helps train tells what im doing wrong what im doing right and tells what to until the next session


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Lynn and I use the same pro. You have to keep in mind that he does not have an "indoor voice" (i.e. quiet) to start with. When he is passionate about something, he does raise his voice.
> 
> He also swears like a sailor (which he got from his mother by the way ) and that may add to the fact that he sounds like he's yelling.
> 
> ...


Good post Melanie. There is a huge difference between getting yelled at and receiving critism. Add passion to critism and some may look at that at getting yelled at, I disagree...


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> There is a line between yelling at someone and being verbally abusive. John Luther used to yell at me for not throwing the bird in the correct spot or proper trajectory,i think he also wanted to see if I was emotionally tough enough to play these games even to this day my brother and I will jaw at each other but as he tells me " this aint a game for cry babies, if you cant take it get out of the game"..its not a tough guy sport, its a tough minded sport..big difference


That is a good explanation for those that haven't been exposed to really competitive situations . Heck we've had 4 guys yelling at each other over a misplaced throw or screwing up the order in a particular set up. When a matter of feet can mean the difference between winning and losing it can get a little intense during training.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Angie B said:


> But why does he need to yell period??? Why??? I'm sure Lynn,,, you and your husband are smart, intelligent people. You're paying your pro to train your dog and train you... Why all the yelling??
> 
> Can you hear and process what you need without the drama??? Are you willing to be yelled at by your superiors at work so you will "dig in?"
> 
> ...


There's a reason there is only a handful of great field trial trainers in this country, who annually qualify *multiple* dogs to the highest of levels of the retriever world. They all are extremely competitive, athletically inclined, and were capable, as any true athlete, able to take criticism as they learned. The best athletes in any form of competition have that. Not all dogs are good enough to be field champions, and not all handlers have it in them to succeed at the level Lynn desribed Billy want's his clients to reach and Vicki described. Timing, momentum, and the ability to read it before it happens seperates the great trainers from the poor ones, and the great handlers from the poor ones. Vince Lombardi, Red Aurebach, Phil Jackson,you name a great coach and they yelled at grown men.Big deal!!! Every pro isn't a great dog trainer. Just cuz you hang a shingle doesn't make it so.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Fire N Ice said:


> There's a reason there is only a handful of great field trial trainers in this country, who annually qualify *multiple* dogs to the highest of levels of the retriever world. They all are extremely competitive, athletically inclined, and were capable, as any true athlete, able to take criticism as they learned. The best athletes in any form of competition have that. Not all dogs are good enough to be field champions, and not all handlers have it in them to succeed at the level Lynn desribed Billy want's his clients to reach and Vicki described. Timing, momentum, and the ability to read it before it happens seperates the great trainers from the poor ones, and the great handlers from the poor ones. Vince Lombardi, Red Aurebach, Phil Jackson,you name a great coach and they yelled at grown men.Big deal!!! Every pro isn't a great dog trainer. Just cuz you hang a shingle doesn't make it so.


So how much time does a wealthy client have to give to get the respect of his trainer?

Weeks, months, years???

How much money will it take?? Do they need to be independently wealthy? Lay their head at their mentors knee and say "whip me, beat me, make me scream"... Mold me into your image??

Back in the day maybe,,, But not today....

I'm telling you... Mark my words... Pro's are going to have to devlope a whole new attitude.....

It's a whole nother world out there..... The new up and coming see things a lot differently then we did.... 

But what do I know???

Angie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Angie B said:


> How much money will it take?? Do they need to be independently wealthy? Lay their head at their mentors knee and say "whip me, beat me, make me scream"... Mold me into your image??
> Angie



We love the old school jello babe..

/Paul


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> We love the old school jello babe..
> 
> /Paul


I can always count on you Paul.... I knew that "whip me" would get your attention....

Angie


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I really have to make sure I'm not drinking any beverages when reading: /paul, Gooser, and Bubba's posts.

Getting tired of burning my nose out with soda.....


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I don't believe that I've heard much yelling at clients during training or at a trial in this area. I've seen clients instructed, coached ... but NOT yelled at.
If my Pro. yelled at me, I'd tell him/her to take a highing leap.
FYI I also don't yell at my clients either.
Sue


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Don't think yelling and screaming is neccessary to be a good pro, a good teacher. I know several who don't do that.
I do think it's a matter of style. People should find the pro whose style suits them. One size doesn't have to fit all.

Like Angie said, we don't enjoy being screamed at, condescended to, especially by those we send a very large check to every month.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

It's been my experience that instructors/coaches/teachers who need to yell and scream do so because they aren't effective communicators and don't have the language skills to explain exactly what they want the student to do. They get frustrated and lose it. Some people can overlook it, and others can't. And not everyone who is good as a trainer is as good as a teacher.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Pals said:


> I really have to make sure I'm not drinking any beverages when reading: /paul, Gooser, and Bubba's posts.
> 
> Getting tired of burning my nose out with soda.....


Yea but it is fun.... If it's not fun why bother????

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> It's been my experience that instructors/coaches/teachers who need to yell and scream do so because they aren't effective communicators and don't have the language skills to explain exactly what they want the student to do. They get frustrated and lose it. Some people can overlook it, and others can't. And not everyone who is good as a trainer is as good as a teacher.


"Winner, winner, chicken dinner".....

There ya go.....

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> Like Angie said, we don't enjoy being screamed at, condescended to, especially by those we send a very large check to every month.


Amen.... Could you say it one more time????

Angie


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Well it sure beats anything on the boob tube. You know I've always wondered where that saying comes from. /paul? Gooser? Bub?

This ought to be good....


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Angie B said:


> Amen.... Could you say it one more time????
> 
> Angie


OK, in plain English, pros work for us. Some of them even remember that sometimes...


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

"Winner Winner Chicken dinner"???
Haven't heard that in a longggggggggggg time!!
Way too funny.
Sue


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Some people are only truly motivated when the volume of the voice giving directions is raised.
For some people it's the intensity of the voice. For some people it's the lack of voice or conversation that will get them to think about what they are doing.

A good coach finds out what type of treatment MOTIVATES each player. 
A dog trainer is no different, either with the dog or the client.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> It's been my experience that instructors/coaches/teachers who need to yell and scream do so because they aren't effective communicators and don't have the language skills to explain exactly what they want the student to do. They get frustrated and lose it. Some people can overlook it, and others can't. And not everyone who is good as a trainer is as good as a teacher.



I agree that great trainers don't always make teachers. But there ain't a bunch of GREAT *field trial trainers* in this country when you consider the numbers. The proof is in the pudding and the results. To generalize that any coach, (we're not talking school teachers here, or miltary instructors who yell all the time) that yells is an uneffective communicator or that they have language skill issues is ridiculous. Bottom line is gravitate to who you desire to gravitate to. You are paying the bill. You don't like it find someone else. To assume in any *athletic* arena that those who are unable to handle direct criticism are those who succeed is inaccurate. Anyone who has competed at the highest level of sport has recieved sharp pointed criticism when necessary from their coach or coaches.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Some people are only truly motivated when the volume of the voice giving directions is raised.
> For some people it's the intensity of the voice. For some people it's the lack of voice or conversation that will get them to think about what they are doing.
> 
> A good coach finds out what type of treatment MOTIVATES each player.
> A dog trainer is no different, either with the dog or the client.


Well said!!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I believe that

- Great students find great teachers 
and 
- Great teachers find great students

If Rex Carr were still alive, I would travel to spend time with him.
I did not know the man, but I understand that he could be rough with his clients.
I would not particularly like be yelled at, but I would expect it and I would accept it as part of the price of admission.
It would be worth it to me to learn.

Ted


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

Fire N Ice said:


> To generalize that any coach, (we're not talking school teachers here, or miltary instructors who yell all the time) that yells is an uneffective communicator or that they have language skill issues is ridiculous. Bottom line is gravitate to who you desire to gravitate to. You are paying the bill. You don't like it find someone else. To assume in any *athletic* arena that those who are unable to handle direct criticism are those who succeed is inaccurate. Anyone who has competed at the highest level of sport has recieved sharp pointed criticism when necessary from their coach or coaches.


And I think this was well said.

Whoever gets the message across most efficiently wins.

If a "WTF were you thinking?" is balanced with a "Now if she does xyz, you need to do ABC," I'm fine with it. It's obvious the pro is interested in educating, not just yelling for the heck of it.

And just because a pro may yell, it certainly does NOT mean they do not respect the client. It hopefully means they care enough about them and their dog to make them the best team they can be.

I'm not sure what the wealth of the client has to do with it? I got lost there...I would think the working folks who make sacrifices to pay their bills are the ones that deserve a whole lotta respect. But I may be misinterpreting the comment.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

For the past twenty years, I have taught trial tactics for the National Institute of Trial Advocacy (NITA). Over the years, I have found that very few students are willing to engage in the self-examination and effort that it requires to be a great lawyer in the courtroom. 

For the past ten years, I have been involved in the FT game. I have spent a lot of time with Cherylon Loveland and Dave Rorem, and some time with Judy Aycock, Danny Farmer, and Bill Eckett. As with trial tactics, I have found that very few students are willing to engage in the self examination and effort it requires to handle a dog at a high level of proficiency.

If I were a pro, I would be frustrated watching my clients take out the Ferraris that I had built and wrecking them on the course.

If I were an amateur, I would be frustrated if my pro didn't teach me how to drive my Ferrari. 

However, it has been my observation that more often than not - it is not the pro refusing to teach the client, but the client refusing to put in the work needed to attain a high level of proficiency.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> I'm not sure what the wealth of the client has to do with it? I got lost there...I would think the working folks who make sacrifices to pay their bills are the ones that deserve a whole lotta respect. But I may be misinterpreting the comment.


It's what I would call incoherent rambling, which has nothing to do with nothing


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> If I were an amateur, I would be frustrated if my pro didn't teach me how to drive my Ferrari.


Even worse if you had a Maserati. ;-)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

My Maserati is running just fine at the moment.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> If I were a pro, I would be frustrated watching my clients take out the Ferraris that I had built and wrecking them on the course.
> 
> If I were an amateur, I would be frustrated if my pro didn't teach me how to drive my Ferrari.
> 
> However, it has been my observation that more often than not - it is not the pro refusing to teach the client, but the client refusing to put in the work needed to attain a high level of proficiency.


Funny thing is your right about the pro's frustration. I've seen more good dogs by far than good handlers, not even close. A *successful* pro's toughest job is not the dogs but the clients. The only coaches that have never yelled at a player is a coach of an event that does not declare winners.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> For the past twenty years, I have taught trial tactics for the National Institute of Trial Advocacy (NITA). Over the years, I have found that very few students are willing to engage in the self-examination and effort that it requires to be a great lawyer in the courtroom.
> 
> For the past ten years, I have been involved in the FT game. I have spent a lot of time with Cherylon Loveland and Dave Rorem, and some time with Judy Aycock, Danny Farmer, and Bill Eckett. As with trial tactics, I have found that very few students are willing to engage in the self examination and effort it requires to handle a dog at a high level of proficiency.
> 
> ...


Exactly !!!

There is always the price of admission. For most people the price is too high.
Most people are completely fine with being "average" the price of "excellence" is just not worth it to most.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> My Maserati is running just fine at the moment.


I know.  I agree with all you said. Just making a corny...oh nevermind.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Most people are completely fine with being "average" the price of "excellence" is just not worth it to most.


Excellence involves failure, hardship, frustration, discipline, yet through it all the fire to excel continues to burn, *and if met with talent*, success.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

cakaiser said:


> we don't enjoy being screamed at, condescended to, especially by those we send a very large check to every month.


Wwwait. Yelling vs screaming. Big difference. And as many have said, yelling does not need to be interpreted as being condescending.

A condescending pro is someone I would leave quickly.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Yelling is a tactic used in the military or a ball club.

I never pictured dog training as a military exersise.
Most yelling probably occures out of frustration and lack of radios.

Being ademat verses yelling and condescending are to different things

I cant bare being around people screaming at each other. A quick outburst and a sorry is one thing,, but to carry on well maby they need a vacation. I couldn't care less if they were the gods of the retriever world.
Its a crappy personality trait. And they may be great trainors but they have plenty to learn about teaching people who want to be there and learn.

good people dont treat good people that way.

Pete


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2009)

Pete said:


> I cant bare being around people screaming at each other. A quick outburst and a sorry is one thing


This thread is cracking me up. How many contributing to it are shooting for excellence?

And why would a quick outburst require an apology?

So...if you're being real stoopid about handling your dog on a blind, would you rather have a pro come up gently behind you and suggest you should have blown the whistle and your dog wouldn't have completely failed the day's lesson? After the fact discussions are probably not the most valuable since the harm has already been done.

Or would you want a pro yelling (not SCREAMING) BLOW, BLOW--not out of anger but to get your attention. And you would have stopped your dog in the correct spot and have been able to give the correct cast to teach him the day's lesson.

Which is better for dog and handler?

Um, Duh.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> This thread is cracking me up. How many contributing to it are shooting for excellence?
> 
> And why would a quick outburst require an apology?
> 
> ...


Exactly!!!! Reading momentum and reacting timely and correctly is imperative to training. Nothing has been learned if the correction has been missed which a quick "Blow", "Handle" , "line your dog up" etc. etc. etc. and discussed later. Discussion as to why after is how you learn. If as a pro you allow your clients and their dogs to make mistakes and then discuss what they should have done flys in the face of advanced training and detrains.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> My Maserati is running just fine at the moment.


 I'll second that after seeing it drive over the weekend! It was nice seeing you, Ted. Wish I would have had more time...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> This thread is cracking me up.* How many contributing to it are shooting for excellence?*
> 
> And why would a quick outburst require an apology?
> 
> ...


Everyone wants to be a champion but very few have what it takes to be a champion. Just like with dogs, not all handlers can take the pressure from either their pro or the pressure of stepping to the line and putting you and your team's abilities( or lack of it) for your peers to see.

A good pro knows that this is a results driven game, if he and the dog perform and he can get you and the dog to perform then the checks will continue. I would much rather get the "tough love " you describe in scenario # 2 , candy coating and butt kissing will only give one a false sense of confidence and will eventually be exposed in a tougher trial or test


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Rex& Women: Judy Aycock, Patty Fajen, Louise Belmont, Lynne DuBose, MJ Mowinkle, Leslie Karnes, Penny Yolungblood, Ester McCartney, Cerolyn Loveland, Jackie Lauenrouth, Dana Brown, Mary Cadmus, Eva Proby, Delma Hazzard,Mary Anne Cooke,Mimi Carey,Martha Laughlin, Barbara Butcher,Vicki Lamb, Patty Gannon and since I am an old pedestal fart, the only female that I can recall was Joan Shoemaker (Torque of Dangerfield) who said that she did not want to be yelled at by Rex and oddly it was Joan that Rex once confided to me that he wished he could have worked with. My DI yelled at me, he berated me and I as well as the other 210 members of my basic training group took it and oddly enough it was this training that saved many soldiers lives. I always marvelled that we (Rex's clients) always took at least 15-20 qualified dogs to the NARCCS each year.With 7 National Champions in Escalon Ken Cory thought it best that he go down to Escalon to see what was going on. One day Pine Jorgenson left CL2 at Lunch and that evening when he called Rex, Rex asked "Pine where are you/" Rex I came home to Salt Lake City and I will come back when you get rid of those GodDamn heifers." Of course Lynne, Judy, Eva, Delma all won multiple Nationals which takes me to the statement that Guy Burnett told a friend that when you go to Alaska to trap you try to associate with the person with the most pelts on his wall and that is why I(Dave Hangus) am with you Lanse. One of Rex's favorite statements was "As the monkey said as he was diddling the porcupine- where there's pleasure there's pain." Training takes work, dedication and sacrifice. Now I will restate- Tim Springer, Tom Lehman, Diane Snyder- all have spent weeks with me-there were some problems that their dogs had and we worked them out. I am 71, a cancer survivor and have nothing left to do in this world than to help young people learn from the many mistakes I have made along the way in training retrievers.The other dedication I have is to return the solace that Mary Faville, Jeff Horsley, Bill Thompson, Mac and Lynne DuBose, Carolyn Smith, Wayne Bleazard, Sam Kenny, Tim Coulsen and others offered me as I was curled in a fetal position after the chemo and radiation ,to all the new cancer people who are in the game and love their dogs. This is an open invitation to anyone who wants to learn AND run their own dog- I have 3 trailer sites with H20, electric and septic in both Montana and Alabama- I have 2 bird boys and in Montana about 200,000 acres of land and water with no outsiders.In Alabama it is a bit more restricted, but very adequate. Help prorata to share bird boy expense and pay for the birds we shoot for your dog, stay on the property and I pay the E& H20,the site is 7/10th of a mile from my house and you don't have to put up with me after we are through. I don't have all the answers and that is why I told Shawn Graddy(32 yrs old) from Eufaula Alabama last week to stay close to Billy Eckett between trials(Billy has a few pelts). Shawn trains with Dan Devos and has a key to my property. This sport is not going to survive if we have 61 dogs owned by 2 people whose dogs are now on pro's trucks and the 2 owners have NEVER gone to line with a dog.Right now I have to go back to the Open where Rosa had a near perfect job and I hope the same for Eva. I hope someone like Shawn or Katie take me up on my offer- Augie and Louise brought Dana and myself along an I would like to pass on to others before I pass on.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> This thread is cracking me up. How many contributing to it are shooting for excellence?
> 
> And why would a quick outburst require an apology?
> 
> ...


If I had to pick between being yelled at or being late on a whistle.. it would obviously be to be yelled at - for the dog's sake...But I might not take classes from that pro for long...LOL....

I would rather have the pro stand behind me and 'tell me' to blow the whistle when it was needed...no need to yell...Something like the word 'now' or 'toot'... Before running the dog, I would first want to have a good conversation as to what might be expected and where/when the whistle might best be used...I would give my thoughts first, and then want to hear the pro's take on it, to see if I was in the ballpark about what to expect....And then after running the blind I would like to discuss the blind, and what I might have done differently, as well as what went right..


Juli


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Juli H said:


> I would rather have the pro stand behind me and 'tell me' to blow the whistle when it was needed...no need to yell...Something like the word 'now' or 'toot'...
> 
> Juli


Way back when I was learning with my first dog I was running a land blind with my pro standing behind me, he would say "handle" which meant blow my whistle, then he would tell me which cast to give, left angle back, left straight back, and so on. What I didn't know at that time was there are vocal cast and silent cast, so here he is standing right behind me as my dog is off line to the left, he says " handle - silent right back", what I heard was "Slam it" - "right back", so I give a right back and yell "BACK". Obviously the dog drives even harder left. My pro with a slightly firmer voice says, "HANDLE" - "Silent Back", to which I blow and yell louder "BACK". Now the dog really pushes left with increased momentum this went on for a few cast before the wheels fell off the wagon and the pro steps in front of me and says "I got it". He proceeds to work my dog back on line with some easy, silent right hand cast, the dog picks up the bird and the pro looks at me like I'm from Mars or something.

I take Cody back to the truck and my wife asks why I was defying our pro like that. I asked what she meant and that was when she told me he was saying "silent" not "slam-it". We still laugh about that and I have never forgotten that you use a silent cast to break momentum and a vocal cast to increase momentum. I'd say our pro is pretty patient compared to some of your stories.

John


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> Well it sure beats anything on the boob tube. You know I've always wondered where that saying comes from. /paul? Gooser? Bub?
> 
> This ought to be good....


It was another one of Bubba's bright get rich quick schemes. He had a bunch of them. Most of them are displayed here....

http://www.thefartmachine.com/boob-tube.htm


/Paul


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> [
> Or would you want a pro yelling (not SCREAMING) BLOW, BLOW--not out of anger but to get your attention. And you would have stopped your dog in the correct spot and have been able to give the correct cast to teach him the day's lesson/QUOTE]
> 
> That would depend if he were 150 yards away yelling at me or standing right behind me and yelling.
> ...


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> If I had to pick between being yelled at or being late on a whistle.. it would obviously be to be yelled at - for the dog's sake...But I might not take classes from that pro for long...LOL


So what your saying is you cant tell someone they are late on the whistle ,,,you must scream it in their face or else you are incapable of learning that you were late on the whislte

P


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Whats worse, having your pro yell at you, say nothing, or roll on the ground laughing?

/Paul


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Whats worse, having your pro yell at you, say nothing, or roll on the ground laughing?
> 
> /Paul


Did nobody read my post, if there was ever an opportunity for rolling on the ground laughing, that was it, yet that pro quietly just took over and assumed I was either crazy or really-really dumb. He did laugh when I told him what I was hearing instead of "silent back". I guess in this case he was too quiet.
John


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Fire N Ice said:


> They all are extremely competitive, athletically inclined, and were capable, as any true athlete, able to take criticism as they learned. The best athletes in any form of competition have that.


TRUE ATHLETES????????????

must have ran some different type trials than you ran.......

I've seen very few athletically inclined folks at field trials. 

Most actually, were old popcorn farts who were financially secure enough to spend what it takes to get good dogs, pay for good training, and run 30+ trials a year to qualify.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are exceptions. Even though I don't get along with ole' Kung Fu, that dude can walk a straight line and chew gum at the same time. Charlie Hayes is pretty damn coordinated. And Charles "Ballgame" Beardan was swift on his feet.

But the man with all the pelts on his wall is about as goofy as a wooden watch. Not discounting his intelligence when it comes to 4 legged creatures (the 2 legged ones may be a different story for that matter) but when I saw him handle he looked like Micheal Jackson on crack while walking a tight rope. 

The best and only handlers I've ever seen with athletic ability have been Judy Aycock and Danny Farmer. The rest of em' might as well tie their legs together in a potatoe sack and enter a hop sock race. 

Athletic ability and dog games can equal success.

But give a guy a butt load of cash, a bunch of time, and little bit of want to and I'll take him over the poor athlete, a good dog, and with all the want to to be the next NAFC handler.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ken Guthrie said:


> TRUE ATHLETES????????????
> 
> must have ran some different type trials than you ran.......
> 
> ...


 I would substitute truly competetive for athlete. Most of the people I have seen that are successful in field trials are truly competitive, some have run fortune 500 companies, some are former yacht racers, some military, but all have that drive to be the best and they do everything they can to be the best. Most of the people I'm talking about are total amateurs, as in doing 90% of their own training, and they work very hard to win.

John


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> some have run fortune 500 companies, some are former yacht racers, some military,


Ever known a guy in the last 2 decades that worked a 9-5 or was a retired blue collar man who won most Friday night poker tournaments with his buddies?

Yacht's, Fortune 500...........yep dem' folks have money.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Ken Guthrie said:


> TRUE ATHLETES????????????
> 
> must have ran some different type trials than you ran.......
> 
> ...


You said true athletes, I said Athletically inclined, read my quote again,(enjoys sports, has participated in such, has the ability to read momentum, toughminded) etc. etc. etc. Don't put words in my mouth.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Fire N Ice said:


> You said true athletes, I said Athletically inclined, read my quote again,(enjoys sports, has participated in such, has the ability to read momentum, toughminded) etc. etc. etc. Don't put words in my mouth.


Hmmm.......



Fire N Ice said:


> _They all are extremely competitive, athletically inclined, and were capable, as any true athlete, able to take criticism as they learned. The best athletes in any form of competition have that._


Maybe I'm reading it out of context.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Hmmm.......
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm reading it out of context.


First off since you need a class in reading comprehension 101. Post my whole quote. I was speaking specifically of *Successful* (important word don't get lost) field trial pro's, of which there are very few. I said they were athetically *inclined*,(I would hope you know this definition, means leans toward) and *were* (another important word directly from my quote, stay with me) *as any* (important because it refers to the point made comparative to successful athletes and their mindset, stay with me) *true athlete*, able to take criticism. Don't wate my time.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

:barf:


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Pete said:


> So what your saying is* you* cant tell someone they are late on the whistle ,,,*you *must scream it in their face or else *you* are incapable of learning that *you* were late on the whislte
> 
> P


Guess I don't follow your comment...

who is you (trainer?), and you(me)?

the way it reads to me is that I am telling myself to blow the whistle...and also that I am incapable of learning that I was late on the whistle.

Juli


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

/paul- loved the picture, do believe husband is going to order one of those. Made some wise crack about channel surfing with the perfect woman. He'll be out of ICU by monday, according to the docs. 

One question- where is the off button?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Fire N Ice said:


> Don't wate my time.


Can I take my comprehension class the same time as your spelling class?

Wating my time away regards,


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Juli H said:


> If I had to pick between being yelled at or being late on a whistle.. it would obviously be to be yelled at - for the dog's sake...But I might not take classes from that pro for long...LOL....
> 
> I would rather have the pro stand behind me and 'tell me' to blow the whistle when it was needed...no need to yell...Something like the word 'now' or 'toot'... Before running the dog, I would first want to have a good conversation as to what might be expected and where/when the whistle might best be used...I would give my thoughts first, and then want to hear the pro's take on it, to see if I was in the ballpark about what to expect....And then after running the blind I would like to discuss the blind, and what I might have done differently, as well as what went right..
> 
> ...


Pretty much how I try to play it out with my clients. 

They watch me run the setup with a handful of dogs. I ask them to explain to me what they saw. What are the "intended" outcomes of this set-up and what are the "predicted" outcomes of the set-up. Also how does this set-up play into the concepts we are working on...

Then they run their dogs... I don't say squat.

When they are done running their dogs they need to explain what they did, when they did it and why... Not just to me, but to everyone there. I want to understand what their thought proccess was while they were the running the dog. Because how they percieved the situation at the time is totally acceptable, just uneducated, maybe. Nothing wrong with that....;-)

Everyone wants to learn from not just me but one another while they're there.

Then I'll give my take on how they ran their dog... 

But I'm considerate and straight forward. Also I won't embarrass my clients in front of others. Why would I?? They are trying as hard as their dog is trying? If I want them to step to the mat and give it everything they've got then I have to allow them to make a mistake and not make them feel like an idiot....

Mistakes are good. It's how we can be better.....

Angie


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Angie,

Anytime you want to come to Alaska to give some retriever classes...please let me know. 

Juli


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> /paul- loved the picture, do believe husband is going to order one of those. Made some wise crack about channel surfing with the perfect woman. He'll be out of ICU by monday, according to the docs.
> 
> One question- where is the off button?


If your husband is smart, he'll only focus his attention to the "ON" button.

Just helping out in the worst way....

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Pretty much how I try to play it out with my clients.
> 
> They watch me run the setup with a handful of dogs. I ask them to explain to me what they saw. What are the "intended" outcomes of this set-up and what are the "predicted" outcomes of the set-up. Also how does this set-up play into the concepts we are working on...
> 
> ...


Pretty much how I run my training sessions.

/Paul


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I get private training input from Angie 4 or 5 evenings a week and since I am bed bound would /Paul or Bubba consider this as pillow talk?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> TRUE ATHLETES????????????
> 
> must have ran some different type trials than you ran.......
> 
> ...


I know you and I differ on our outlooks of different people in this game, and yet we agree on some of the most basic principles that make up this game

but your last post has me completely stumped because the two different people you described are the very same person....YOU..

according to what little I know about you in your real life, you were a real life professional baseball player that used his resources $$, a bunch of time after your career was over and a whole bunch of want/desire

on some accounts you were a mediocre athlete with a very good dog and all the want to be the next NAFC handler

and now you have morphed into a very good dad, a professional pot stirrer, and someone that is either on someones ignore list or being told to pound sand

you got more multiple personalities than Sybil..:razz::razz:


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> I know you and I differ on our outlooks of different people in this game, and yet we agree on some of the most basic principles that make up this game
> 
> but your last post has me completely stumped because the two different people you described are the very same person....YOU..
> 
> ...




I was referring to the "poor" as in finacially poor. Not a below average athlete.

My point there was........a finacially well off clutz with a bunch of time and want to is more likely to be successful in the dog game than an average income, 9-5, very good athlete, with all the want to.

;-)

Time after my career was over? I never made any money to take any time off.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I was referring to the "poor" as in finacially poor. Not a below average athlete.
> 
> My point there was........a finacially well off clutz with a bunch of time and want to is more likely to be successful in the dog game than an average income, 9-5, very good athlete, with all the want to.
> 
> ...


Here in Montana most of the successful folks I have run with were all regular 9-5, out here its 8-5 or longer due to having two jobs. I knew a landscaper back east who said he loved hiring workers from Montana and North Dakota because they thought 8-5 was a half day. 

Anyway my point is, and I don't want to name names, but my training partner who is a highway engineer with three boys between 9 and 16 made an FC-AFC after running hunt test with a talented dog and lots of meeting at noon to run a test here and there, running at 8:30 in the summer evenings, my other training partners are a retired vet, a millright, construction worker, retired civil service guy and retired military, the yacht racer I refer to was me with my old Cal 33 sailboat that I bought with Alaska Pipeline money in 1976. None of us are rich, but we all like to compete and get the best out of our dogs.

John


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Here in Montana most of the successful folks I have run with were all regular 9-5, out here its 8-5 or longer due to having two jobs. I knew a landscaper back east who said he loved hiring workers from Montana and North Dakota because they thought 8-5 was a half day.
> 
> Anyway my point is, and I don't want to name names, but my training partner who is a highway engineer with three boys between 9 and 16 made an FC-AFC after running hunt test with a talented dog and lots of meeting at noon to run a test here and there, running at 8:30 in the summer evenings, my other training partners are a retired vet, a millright, construction worker, retired civil service guy and retired military, the yacht racer I refer to was me with my old Cal 33 sailboat that I bought with Alaska Pipeline money in 1976. None of us are rich, but we all like to compete and get the best out of our dogs.
> 
> John


Montana is the greatest place on earth. I was lucky enough to spend my most memorable summer with the Helena Brewers.

I'm not saying a common man can't do it at all. Just simply noting what the norm is throughout the game.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

lanse brown said:


> clients) ,to all the new cancer people who are in the game and love their dogs. This is an open invitation to anyone who wants to learn AND run their own dog- I have 3 trailer sites with H20, electric and septic in both Montana and Alabama- I have 2 bird boys and in Montana about 200,000 acres of land and water with no outsiders.In Alabama it is a bit more restricted, but very adequate. Help prorata to share bird boy expense and pay for the birds we shoot for your dog, stay on the property and I pay the E& H20,the site is 7/10th of a mile from my house and you don't have to put up with me after we are through. I don't have all the answers and that is why I told Shawn Graddy(32 yrs old) from Eufaula Alabama last week to stay close to Billy Eckett between trials(Billy has a few pelts). Shawn trains with Dan Devos and has a key to my property. This sport is not going to survive if we have 61 dogs owned by 2 people whose dogs are now on pro's trucks and the 2 owners have NEVER gone to line with a dog.Right now I have to go back to the Open where Rosa had a near perfect job and I hope the same for Eva. I hope someone like Shawn or Katie take me up on my offer- Augie and Louise brought Dana and myself along an I would like to pass on to others before I pass on.


You sir are a gentleman, this is an outstanding offer and one which seems to be extended for the most noble reasons. I hope you have received many PM's of thanks for making your lands, skills and experience available for the benefit of others. I would contact you myself but thankfully I do not meet the criteria for acceptance.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I was referring to the "poor" as in finacially poor. Not a below average athlete.
> 
> My point there was........a finacially well off clutz with a bunch of time and want to is more likely to be successful in the dog game than an average income, 9-5, very good athlete, with all the want to.
> 
> ...


*Money doesnt guarantee success in the dog game Gut.*...my brother is living proof of that...the main factor that drove my brother to med school was that he got tired of going against the wealthy blue bloods of the sport, he had no illusions of curing the worlds health problems or finding a cure for any disease. he went to med school to pay for his habit...FIELD TRIALING...he makes no bones about it

fast forward to 2009, he has a very good lucrative practice that allows him to take expensive hunting and fishing trips to Alaska,South Dakota,Colorado. He is also able to afford a pro to run his dogs on the summer circuit while he goes fishing in Alaska with one of his sons. He has won ONCE since returning to the circuit full time in 04...as a broke college student he had at least seven wins that I can remember with two different dogs..

Good dogs and good dog handlers/trainers win trials not big money...if that were the case Steve Bechtel would win everything in sight


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> *Money doesnt guarantee success in the dog game Gut*


Nope, your darn right.

But like I said before.............

Take a guy with a bunch of money, a bunch of time, and some "want to".....

Then

Take a guy with a common income, not much time, and some "want to".....

Who you gonna pick to have the best chance of owning the next NAFC finalist?


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Nope, your darn right.
> 
> But like I said before.............
> 
> ...


There are others, but one name that comes to mind immediately is Jimmie Darnell. As pure an amateur is there is. It's only a matter of time for him. ;-)

JS


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I get private training input from Angie 4 or 5 evenings a week and since I am bed bound would /Paul or Bubba consider this as pillow talk?


It does indeed sound a lot like pillow talk.

It also is indicative of a very classy lady.

Looks good in lime jello as well regards

Bubba


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Me, I'd take the guy/gal with some money and allot of "Dog Sense" and put my $$ on her/hime to win.
I've seen $$,good dogs and people who couldn't run a Junior Hunt test(no offense taken at the Hunt Test program)
Sue


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Bruce MacPherson said:


> Saw this thread and immediately called Remien. He said we can use help in the desert this winter. So if you don't mind 12 hour days in scorching heat, throwing birds till your arm falls off, being accused of setting FCs back at least to pre derby days in their training and living on a steady diet of Plaid Pantry Burritos then he's your guy.


That's all sounds fine except for the Plaid Pantry Burritos part. Always a fly in the ointment.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I get private training input from Angie 4 or 5 evenings a week and since I am bed bound would /Paul or Bubba consider this as pillow talk?


I would charge her extra.....











/Paul


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Maybe Angie will set up 900 number with a per minute charge or else I should add one to my phone cause the tall blond likes to gab. Big time chatting we even mention /Paul and Bubba they are the funniest of the long time members. We even have phone sex regarding her CH male breedings.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> Maybe Angie will set up 900 number with a per minute charge or else I should add one to my phone cause the tall blond likes to gab. Big time chatting we even mention /Paul and Bubba they are the funniest of the long time members. We even have phone sex regarding her CH male breedings.


If you have jello pics, you're my new hero.


/Paul


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

jello wrestling, but none of the tall blond dog trainer


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> Maybe Angie will set up 900 number with a per minute charge or else I should add one to my phone cause the tall blond likes to gab. Big time chatting we even mention /Paul and Bubba they are the funniest of the long time members. We even have phone sex regarding her CH male breedings.


I need to talk to your nurse... Your meds are causing you to "blab" way too much..... 

No girl likes her "pillow talk" buddy to "tell all".... 

*sheesh*

Angie


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I am sorry if I told too much, but then /Paul baited me with a chance to become a hero. But I didn't tell about your jello wrestling fantasy. Nurse is coming today to draw blood I thought that went out with bleeding by leeches. Hard to tell what I will say with a lowerer blood supply.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Those girls are obviously amateurs. Jello babe could take them both....

/Paul


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I would not take lessons from someone with fake boobs. Lime jello or not. Its just wrong


Too much caffine today regards,


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Pals said:


> I would not take lessons from someone with fake boobs.
> 
> 
> ,


There can be a lot of upside to training with somebody with fake boobs.

However, take it from someone who has trained with many fakes, and plenty of boobs; there is little upside to either!!


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