# AKC to HRC



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

I have a dog with an AKC Senior Title, and now have 3 master passes. I train wtih a few HRC guys and wanted to start playing in HRC as well. I am considering which level to begin at. Conceptually, we are running master level pretty well, but of course the format differences have me wondering if maybe we should begin at the seasoned level for the dog to get used to marking with no call from the gunner station, shooting from the line, etc. Has anyone else started HRC after AKC? Did you start with seasoned to try and get the dog acclimated to another fomat or did you go to Finished right away? 

I know the dog can do the work, but again, just curious how anyone else's experience has gone. We do train both ways, and actually the dog tends to crouch sometimes out of excitement (not vocal, doesn't creep much, but does crouch), and I am thinking that the HRC format will help reduce that with the absence of calling/shooting from the gunner station.

Curious on some feedback! Thanks everyone.


----------



## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I would just go for finish if you already have master passes. Biggest difference for me is shooting at the line excites my dog a lot more than in master where shots are in the field. There might not be any noise in the field, but must clubs use wingers and the dogs can here them. Also you can talk to your dog so if dog does not swing with the gun you can say here or heal to get them to turn or pull. HRC is more like hunting since you and your hunting partner (honor) are both working together. Just make sure you train with you using the duck call and shooting and get the dog use to following the gun. Most of the time you will be sitting so dog will be on the save level as you and the gun.


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

Karen Klotthor said:


> I would just go for finish if you already have master passes. Biggest difference for me is shooting at the line excites my dog a lot more than in master where shots are in the field. There might not be any noise in the field, but must clubs use wingers and the dogs can here them. Also you can talk to your dog so if dog does not swing with the gun you can say here or heal to get them to turn or pull. HRC is more like hunting since you and your hunting partner (honor) are both working together. Just make sure you train with you using the duck call and shooting and get the dog use to following the gun. Most of the time you will be sitting so dog will be on the save level as you and the gun.


Karen, good points and thank you for your input. I agree with you, being able to talk to the dog should make everything doable for my dog, especially since triples and blinds is what we are currently doing. Thanks again!


----------



## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

I think the biggest changes will be for you as handler. You might want to run one Seasonsed test for experience then on to Finished. If the dog hunts, he will be fine.


----------



## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

We are doing just that this year. Our 5 year old male, with multiple master passes at the start of the season (and a handler who has hunted and shot all his life) went straight into Finished and has passed 6 in a row. Going to HRC training days a couple of times was all he needed to transition to the difference in procedure. Our 3 year old bitch with multiple master passes at the start of the season (handled by me, very limited gun handling) completed 2 seasoned tests our first weekend, so that I could get used to the gun handling, and I needed it (but she didn't.) She stood there with her marked bird in her mouth waiting good naturedly while I fumbled with the shell for the diversion shot, then delivered her mark and picked up her diversion. The look on her face was priceless. Last weekend she earned 2 finished passes easily in spite of me. So if you have master passes and the opportunity to train a couple of times with your HRC friends, I'd say just go for finished, especially if you're already comfortable with handling the gun.


----------



## Jeff Brezee (Nov 21, 2012)

I would say start with Seasoned. It may seem more basic for you, but it may help for you and your dog to transition (shooting from the line, gun safety is huge! and being on the bucket.) You'll need 7 finished to title *or* 4 seasoned and 4 finished for both titles. Start with success. If your dog gets excited (crouching), just wait until you get an "in your face" water triple starting with you blowing on the duck call and shooting from the line! (Once we got wet from the splash during an honor!) It's a different game but it is fun!


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

Pam Spears said:


> We are doing just that this year. Our 5 year old male, with multiple master passes at the start of the season (and a handler who has hunted and shot all his life) went straight into Finished and has passed 6 in a row. Going to HRC training days a couple of times was all he needed to transition to the difference in procedure. Our 3 year old bitch with multiple master passes at the start of the season (handled by me, very limited gun handling) completed 2 seasoned tests our first weekend, so that I could get used to the gun handling, and I needed it (but she didn't.) She stood there with her marked bird in her mouth waiting good naturedly while I fumbled with the shell for the diversion shot, then delivered her mark and picked up her diversion. The look on her face was priceless. Last weekend she earned 2 finished passes easily in spite of me. So if you have master passes and the opportunity to train a couple of times with your HRC friends, I'd say just go for finished, especially if you're already comfortable with handling the gun.


Thanks Pam, I am comfortable with the gun, and hope my transition goes as nicely as yours did! Congrats!


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

Jeff Brezee said:


> I would say start with Seasoned. It may seem more basic for you, but it may help for you and your dog to transition (shooting from the line, gun safety is huge! and being on the bucket.) You'll need 7 finished to title *or* 4 seasoned and 4 finished for both titles. Start with success. If your dog gets excited (crouching), just wait until you get an "in your face" water triple starting with you blowing on the duck call and shooting from the line! (Once we got wet from the splash during an honor!) It's a different game but it is fun!


Jeff, valid points. What is the rule on running one of each? For example, seasoned on saturday, finished on sunday. Is that ok? If I do pass finsihed however, then seasoned is no longer an option, correct?


----------



## doverstreet (May 23, 2013)

Incorrect, see page 10 of the rule book. Points in seasoned or finished count towards an HR title.


----------



## doverstreet (May 23, 2013)

You will see some HRCH dogs running in lower stakes, often times with a young or inexperienced handler.


----------



## Matt Steffes (Jan 23, 2014)

doverstreet said:


> Incorrect, see page 10 of the rule book. Points in seasoned or finished count towards an HR title.


Finished points do not count towards an HR title...they count towards an HRCH title.

For an HR (seasoned) title, you need 40 points. These points can come from either 4 seasoned passes (10 points/pass), or from 2 started passes (5 points/pass) + 3 seasoned passes. 

For an HRCH (finished) title, you need 100 points. These points can come from 7 finished passes (15 points/pass), or from any combination of seasoned + finished passes. However, once you gain a finished pass, you can no longer acquire points in a lower stake.

The "traditional" path to an HRCH is 2 started passes + 3 seasoned passes + 4 finished passes (100 points). However, experienced handlers (pros, etc.) may elect to skip started, and instead get 4 seasoned passes + 4 finished passes to reach the 100 point total for an HRCH.


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

Matt Steffes said:


> Finished points do not count towards an HR title...they count towards an HRCH title.
> 
> For an HR (seasoned) title, you need 40 points. These points can come from either 4 seasoned passes (10 points/pass), or from 2 started passes (5 points/pass) + 3 seasoned passes.
> 
> ...


Thanks Matt, so sounds like you recommend running some seasoned first, for not only experience but points. Appreciate your input.


----------



## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

The points system can be confusing. If you run finished and pass when you reach 40+ pints UKC will send you a HR TITLE. But if you pass at finished and try to go back to seasoned your points will not count.


----------



## doverstreet (May 23, 2013)

This is taken from page 10 of the rulebook.


----------



## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Matt Steffes said:


> *Finished points do not count towards an HR title*...they count towards an HRCH title.
> 
> For an HR (seasoned) title, you need 40 points. These points can come from either 4 seasoned passes (10 points/pass), or from 2 started passes (5 points/pass) + 3 seasoned passes.


That is not correct.

I know of several dogs that earned an HR with just Finished passes! One was mine. 

It has been a long time since I ran HRC. So I checked to see if the rules changed. Here is what the rule book says:


> HUNTING RETRIEVER (HR) - The HuntingRetriever (HR) title is attained by earning forty (40)
> Championship Points.
> Points can be earned in Started, Seasoned or
> Finished. Dogs are not required to earn points in
> ...


----------



## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

You can run only 1 season and move up to finish and still earn your HR title. I ran one season to eliminate 1 finish when my girl was ready. I ran Season on Sat and Fin on sunday. The ponts to add to the 100 pts. The only thing that does not add up is if you go for Started title, you need 4 pays but only 10 pts go to your HR or HRCH. You cannot double stake like in AKC but you can one 2 diff stakes in one weekend.


----------



## Matt Steffes (Jan 23, 2014)

It's totally up to you. Myself, being very new to dog games in general, worked up through the ranks of started, seasoned, and now I'm running finished. Given your background and experience, I would first seek out an HRC group to train with to see how your dog reacts to the differences at the line (duck calls, shooting from the line, etc.), and then go from there.


----------



## Matt Steffes (Jan 23, 2014)

That's why I like this site -- I learn something new everyday.


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

one valuable piece of advice.....if you pass just ONE Finished test you CAN NOT go back and run Seasoned for points toward a title. My dog that I just had put down thanks to having a DAH....me passed a Finished test at 14 months old. It was a good job on his part but his training was not up to par to pass 7 Finished in a row. Took us a lot longer . I don't run HRC anymore but I would recommend you get at least a couple of Seasoned passes before going on to Finished.


----------



## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I see you guys already cleared it up, but Jake ran 6 finished tests without ever running in started or seasoned and one day his HR title just showed up in the mail  Hoping to put a lid on it this weekend with his HRCH, fingers crossed. Ryan, hopefully your HRC training group can watch you practice and give you some Finished-level scenarios to help you make up your mind. I actually thought seasoned was kind of complicated, walking around from station to station for different things... good thing I had friendly and helpful judges. Finished was much more familiar to me.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think your master level dog will do well in Finished.

Its gonna be YOU that will need the adjustment.
Remeber:
1. You can talk to the dog (While the marks are being thrown) to get him to swing with the gun.
2. Judges CAN designate Order of pick up.. (selection)
3. many times ,the Honor dog and handler will be part of your test..
4. there is NOTHINg in the rules, that demand you sit on the bucket.


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks everyone!


----------



## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

I've done what you're asking about. And I would never go straight into finished again. Take advanage of the HRC rules. Run 2 started tests and get 10 points then run 3 seaoned test and get another 30 points. Total 40 points. After that run finished and get your remaining 60 points. 
To pass 7 finished tests in a row is very difficult for most handlers and dogs. Take advanage from what the HRC is willing to give you.


----------



## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I think your master level dog will do well in Finished.
> 
> Remeber:
> 4. there is NOTHINg in the rules, that demand you sit on the bucket.


If the judge tells you your hunting from the bucket then your sitting on the bucket. The same as if the judge tells you, your hunting from a layout blind and your dog is in a mut hut. Then you hunt from the lay out blind and your dog is running out of a mutt hutt.


----------



## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Golden Boy said:


> I've done what you're asking about. And I would never go straight into finished again. Take advanage of the HRC rules. Run 2 started tests and get 10 points then run 3 seaoned test and get another 30 points. Total 40 points. After that run finished and get your remaining 60 points.
> To pass 7 finished tests in a row is very difficult for most handlers and dogs. Take advanage from what the HRC is willing to give you.


More difficult for the dog, or for the handler to get used to the nuances of the game?


----------



## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Labs said:


> More difficult for the dog, or for the handler to get used to the nuances of the game?


Both, dog needs to follow the gun, be use to running off a ruff stand or sport stand, dog has to be more steady in the HRC at the finished level where a creep out past the gun barrel will put you and your dog out, vs AKC master where the same creep would most likely be allowed. 
Marking concepts and blinds are pretty much the same in both. So most master level dogs can do the work in the field but things at the line are where I've seen most of the issues. 

As for the handler GUN SAFTEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's where the handler gets his team in trouble. Everyone always says you can talk to your dog and you can, but you need to be aware of what going on with the gun. Failure to shoulder the gun is a gun warning 2 gun warning in a day and you're out. 
Failure to turn on the saftey on when returning the gun to the stand is a gun warning. 
Failure to open the gun when returning it to the stand is a gun warning.


----------



## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

A creep will put you out? I guess I missed that in the rule book. How can they allow controlled breaks without elimination, but a creep puts you out? You talking the Grand rules or Finished test rules?


----------



## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Labs said:


> A creep will put you out? I guess I missed that in the rule book. How can they allow controlled breaks without elimination, but a creep puts you out? You talking the Grand rules or Finished test rules?


Finished test. The dog creeps out past the gun barrel, the handler shoots the gun and causes a unsafe condition you're out. As for a controlled break you're pretty much going to be out.(Depending on the judges)


----------



## Keith S. (May 6, 2005)

Labs said:


> More difficult for the dog, or for the handler to get used to the nuances of the game?


Not nuisances, just a different game. Train with a duck call and shooting a pump shotgun and the dog will do fine.


----------



## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Keith S. said:


> Not nuisances, just a different game. Train with a duck call and shooting a pump shotgun and the dog will do fine.


Already do....run NAHRA. Layout blinds, they use those things called decoys(which i rarely see in AKC tests), mutt hutts, boats, remotes, platforms, duck calls, shooting at the line, etc etc. Biggest thing that I can see is shooting at the birds myself, and getting the dog to swing to the gun...everything else looks pretty standard. Walk ups in Finished?


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

From someone who was in your shoes not to long ago, run a few seasoned first. The dog can absolutely do the finished work, but in HRC the handler-dog is a true team. And guess who will have the most learning to do. There is no calling in the field if you jam a gun the dog most likely will not see the fall. Gun safety will throw you out and it's often times easily forgotten if things go wrong, HRC tests are very chaotic, and you'll be picking up and putting down the gun, calling moving ALOT. plus in finished the judges will not give you helpful warnings, they expected you to already know. Seasoned passes go toward your HR &HRCH title, so there's no good reason not to run at least one. 7 finished or 6 finished 1 seasoned will still give you HRCH.


----------



## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

To answer your question about walk up in finished. You can see one but rarely. It is a requirement in season but not finish. Do not let others scare you. You will not all ways be put out for creeping. You will not be out all the time for forgetting gun safety. Judges do warn you and if you let the judge know this is your first time , they will work with you. I have judged a lot of seaon and finish test and have never had to put anyone out on gun saftey. You can talk to you dog so even if the gun jams you can still say here and pretend and point gun when bird is at top of the arch, don't stop you test just for a jammed gun. The judges will know what is happening and most will help out. We do know the diffence of when a handler is having troubles.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Golden Boy said:


> Finished test. The dog creeps out past the gun barrel, the handler shoots the gun and causes a unsafe condition you're out. As for a controlled break you're pretty much going to be out.(Depending on the judges)



Makes you question YOUR comment about the judge requiring you to sit on the bucket!

Dog creeps,, its not a safety issue, if you STAND TO SHOOT.. 

So,, let me get this straight.. If I go to the line, sit on the bucket, call to start my test, then as the birds are thrown, I stand to shoot the marks,,,, You gonna fail me??

If you stand to shoot,, its much safer for the dog, even if he doesnt creep..

JMHO..


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Failing a dog-handler team when the dog is in front of the gun is only done if the handler chooses to shoot at or over a dog when the dog is in blast cone of the gun, basically shooting or endangering your own dog, which a safe hunter would never do. All they want is for a handler who is using a real gun to be aware of the situation, where his dog is and shoot up or above the dog, so the dog is not endangered. In a testing situation it might seem a small thing when your concerned with everything else going on, but in a hunting situation shooting at a bird with a dog moving around in front of you, going up after birds etc. One might very well deafen or kill your own dog. Hunting & testing is a Team-sport, the handler is required to take on some responsibility. Most people with gun-hunting experience know how to watch a dog and handle a gun, such disqualifications don't happen often; but when they do judges take it seriously.


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

Everyone has been very helpful, thank you for the feedback. All in all, I think running a seasoned test or two is only going to help "us" get acclimated as a team to another game. It counts towards the finished title so in no way is it a waste of time or money, and just like in training, sometimes doing something a little simpler to teach a concept can go a long way. just because we have master passes doesn't mean a seasoned test cannot present challenges, and either way it will be fun to play a new game! Thanks again for all the feedback, wish us luck in a few weeks!


----------



## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Makes you question YOUR comment about the judge requiring you to sit on the bucket!
> 
> Dog creeps,, its not a safety issue, if you STAND TO SHOOT..
> 
> ...


Of course you can stand and shoot to make it safe for the dog and to keep the dog out of the blast cone, but by the time third mark comes out more than likely your dog will be put out for excessive creeping.
I will judge accordingly!!!!!


----------



## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Karen Klotthor said:


> To answer your question about walk up in finished. You can see one but rarely. It is a requirement in season but not finish.


They're pretty common in this region. If you ran 7 finished tests in this area I would imagine you would see at least 1 walkup triple.


----------



## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Golden Boy said:


> Of course you can stand and shoot to make it safe for the dog and to keep the dog out of the blast cone, but by the time third mark comes out more than likely your dog will be put out for excessive creeping.
> I will judge accordingly!!!!!


Based on your earlier post, out to the end of the gun barrel is excessive to you, which in all reality, isn't more than the length of the dog...


----------



## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Labs said:


> Based on your earlier post, out to the end of the gun barrel is excessive to you, which in all reality, isn't more than the length of the dog...


True very true. 
There will be no defined line for excessive creeping or breaking. I again will judge accordingly.
But if you train your dog to be rock steady this won't be a concern.


----------



## krazybronco2 (Jan 31, 2013)

ryaneder said:


> Everyone has been very helpful, thank you for the feedback. All in all, I think running a seasoned test or two is only going to help "us" get acclimated as a team to another game. It counts towards the finished title so in no way is it a waste of time or money, and just like in training, sometimes doing something a little simpler to teach a concept can go a long way. just because we have master passes doesn't mean a seasoned test cannot present challenges, and either way it will be fun to play a new game! Thanks again for all the feedback, wish us luck in a few weeks!


one bit of advice with seasoned watch the test dog and handler carfully.see what is going on because there is alot more movement in that test than in any other test. you will have a walk up and a diversion also one little thing in seasoned you shoot the blind. the diversion can be after the blind of a series or the last mark of a series. the walk up is normally the first part of a series or the last part of the series. and the walk ups are normally alot closer than you are used to seeing in an akc test i have seen them as short as 10yards infront of the dog. only bad part about seasoned is it takes a long time to set up the test and get dogs through because of all the parts.


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

One difference I didn't see mentioned is that in most HRC tests there are big swings between gun stations. A left, right then middle with nearly 180 degrees between the left and right stations is possible. Areas of fall are very distinct. This being said, movement to see the next mark can cause a steady dog to creep. The very good HRC dogs will sit and only move their head to see the marks.


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

fishduck said:


> One difference I didn't see mentioned is that in most HRC tests there are big swings between gun stations. A left, right then middle with nearly 180 degrees between the left and right stations is possible. Areas of fall are very distinct. This being said, movement to see the next mark can cause a steady dog to creep. The very good HRC dogs will sit and only move their head to see the marks.


Mark, to be honest all of our master tests this year have been similar, but still, when they are quacking and shooting from the gunner station its much different in terms of seeing the mark. In HRC, with that NOT happening, I'm thinking Seasoned is the best way to go, the points count towards finished and its a good way to get the dog in an HRC game and expose him to a different way of testing than he is used to. The dog hunts a lot, he's steady with a gun over him and he marks very well with the barrel and me turning. That being said, it seems foolish not to try a seasoned first.


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

krazybronco2 said:


> one bit of advice with seasoned watch the test dog and handler carfully.see what is going on because there is alot more movement in that test than in any other test. you will have a walk up and a diversion also one little thing in seasoned you shoot the blind. the diversion can be after the blind of a series or the last mark of a series. the walk up is normally the first part of a series or the last part of the series. and the walk ups are normally alot closer than you are used to seeing in an akc test i have seen them as short as 10yards infront of the dog. only bad part about seasoned is it takes a long time to set up the test and get dogs through because of all the parts.


Thank you, we just ran a master with a 15 yard walk up/ live flyer as the first bird, lots of dogs broke. As I said in my comment prior, all the master tests we have ran this year have been breaking tests, with big swings on the marks. Sounds similar to what everyone is describing (minus the difference of calling/shooting at the line versus the gunner station, which is obviously a big difference).


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

To get my dogs used to the big swings, I did the following. Gave my son a few bumpers & had him stand behind me & the dog. Point the gun, bumper is thrown over my head to where the barrel is pointing. Swing & shuck gun & next bumper goes to where the barrel points. Repeat as often as needed.

One word of advice. Use the softest, lightest bumpers you own. Although I love Avery products, the Hexabumper does not shine in this application. It is also good advice to be on good terms with the individual slinging bumpers over your head!


----------



## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

fishduck said:


> To get my dogs used to the big swings, I did the following. Gave my son a few bumpers & had him stand behind me & the dog. Point the gun, bumper is thrown over my head to where the barrel is pointing. Swing & shuck gun & next bumper goes to where the barrel points. Repeat as often as needed.
> 
> One word of advice. Use the softest, lightest bumpers you own. Although I love Avery products, the Hexabumper does not shine in this application. It is also good advice to be on good terms with the individual slinging bumpers over your head!


HAHA good advice! Thats a perfect drill, we will do that. Again, thank you for the advice.


----------



## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Good Breaking drill too. I HRC finish test you just might have a bird come over your head. Mark hope Gray got you good.


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

For some reason, that seems to be Gray's favorite drill!


----------



## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

So if there is a 180 swing, and my dog is supposed to be behind the gun barrel when I swing to the left, how can the dog see the bird 180 to the right if it doesn't move around with me. My dog is short, for her to sit as far back as I would need her to be and not be in the barrel zone if I am shooting left, she is going to have to move around the bucket and me to see the bird to the right. There is no way she is going to see over or around me, she is going to have to move
I am gonna go four and four, can't get int the finished tests I am looking at this fall so I might as well knock out forty in seasoned


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

180 degrees is not the "norm" but it can happen. Simply use your voice to get the dog to move. Also remind them to sit after repositioning. Talking to the dog is allowed so it normally isn't a big deal.


----------



## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

limiman12 said:


> So if there is a 180 swing, and my dog is supposed to be behind the gun barrel when I swing to the left, how can the dog see the bird 180 to the right if it doesn't move around with me. My dog is short, for her to sit as far back as I would need her to be and not be in the barrel zone if I am shooting left, she is going to have to move around the bucket and me to see the bird to the right. There is no way she is going to see over or around me, she is going to have to move
> I am gonna go four and four, can't get int the finished tests I am looking at this fall so I might as well knock out forty in seasoned


The HRC judges know the difference from a dog repositioning to a dog that is creeping. That is why there is no defined line for excessive creeping or controled breaks. The dog will be judged accordingly.
But to insure you don't have to worry about the creeping or dog repositioning itself, teach your dog to heel on both your left and right side. 
So when marks come out left to right with 180 degrees of seperation, heel your dog on the bucket on your right side facing the first bird out. This will help the dog not to have to look around you to see the last mark down(Go Bird).
Then the reverse when the birds come out right to left with 180 degrees of seperation. Heel the dog on the left side.
Runnning your dog like this keeps the dog from having to move thier body to see the last bird down.
Also learn to shot the gun from both shoulders.


----------



## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Rule book says "The Finished retriever may be failed for a “controlled break” and may be failed for excessive, consistent creeping". Doesn't say should or will be. You CANNOT require me to sit, stand, kneel, or lay down...regardless of bucket or layout blind, especially if I have a physical impairment.


----------



## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

JoeOverby said:


> Rule book says "The Finished retriever may be failed for a “controlled break” and may be failed for excessive, consistent creeping". Doesn't say should or will be. You CANNOT require me to sit, stand, kneel, or lay down...regardless of bucket or layout blind, especially if I have a physical impairment.


Now why did you have to ruin a perfectly good debate with such a trivial item as the rulebook? 

The Judges & Handlers Seminar manual also is a great piece of reading material, especially page 22. Also read extremely close to find the phrases walk up and mark used together.

A walk up is used to evaluate the steadiness of a hunting retriever. If that bird is now incorporated into a marking scenario, are you testing steadiness or marking with it? If the walk up is used to test steadiness as required by the rulebook, what logic is used to change the meaning of the bird once it is on the ground? In other words, a walk up triple (HRC only) is, by definition, a control bird and a double.


----------



## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Richard, agreed. A walk up is NOT a mark...it's a walk up and should be judged as such. It's like a poison bird blind...should the mark that is thrown to set up the poison bird blind be judged as a mark or a control bird. I know my feelings on the subject however, is there a difference between what the rulebook says about it between the akc and the hrc?? FWIW, in the past 10 years I have seen exactly ONE walk up in the hrc.


----------



## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

JoeOverby said:


> Richard, agreed. A walk up is NOT a mark...it's a walk up and should be judged as such. It's like a poison bird blind...should the mark that is thrown to set up the poison bird blind be judged as a mark or a control bird. I know my feelings on the subject however, is there a difference between what the rulebook says about it between the akc and the hrc?? FWIW, in the past 10 years I have seen exactly ONE walk up in the hrc.


What does the HRC rulebook say about it being judged as a mark? I couldn't find it when I looked. Just curious.


----------



## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

The 2 biggest differences I see are in seasoned where it is one of the 5 requirements of the testing scenario and it must be a separate test. AKC lets you combine the elements. Next biggest difference is the defined distance in AKC versus the verbiage of thrown at a reasonable distance to properly evaluate the retrievers ability to remain under control while off lead.


----------



## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

fishduck said:


> 180 degrees is not the "norm" but it can happen. Simply use your voice to get the dog to move. Also remind them to sit after repositioning. Talking to the dog is allowed so it normally isn't a big deal.


You can use your voice, but a common mistake I see is a handler continuing to say here, here, etc. while the dog is not turning and the winger goes off with the handler still talking. If the dog is not responding to your commands HUSH and maybe the hound will hear the winger go off an turn. Most of the time they will.


----------



## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

bjoiner said:


> What does the HRC rulebook say about it being judged as a mark? I couldn't find it when I looked. Just curious.


You won't find it anywhere saying is as a mark. You can find several references stating that the walkup is used to evaluate control while walking into or out of the hunting scenario.


----------



## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

It doesn't bubba...and that's my point. It's left to judges interpretation. It's like creeping...there's no standard and overzealous judges can pencil whip you for control regardless of whether your dog is doing the work. I personally despise walk ups and think the ONLY purpose they should serve is to test steadiness and believe that once you are directed by a judge to "no" your dog off a mark and run a blind that mark is no longer a mark but should be considered a control bird. 
As to my feelings on creeping...sit does NOT a finished dog make...


----------



## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

To the op...ain't no way on God's green earth am I gonna run seasoned with a dog that has master passes...might pick one up for being stupid in a finished test but I ain't wasting time in seasoned.


----------



## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Splash_em said:


> You won't find it anywhere saying is as a mark. You can find several references stating that the walkup is used to evaluate control while walking into or out of the hunting scenario.


I saw that. I can completely understand not judging a diversion as a mark due to the dog not being set up at the line when the bird is thrown. I am not sure about a walk up or a poison bird. It's never been an issue when I have judged. Typically the marks with a walk up in HRC are simple. A mark with a poison bird is usually relatively easy to get as well due to it being thrown to temp a dog to go there instead of the blind. Just want to make sure I'm not screwing something up when I judge again.


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

bjoiner said:


> You can use your voice, but a common mistake I see is a handler continuing to say here, here, etc. while the dog is not turning and the winger goes off with the handler still talking. If the dog is not responding to your commands HUSH and maybe the hound will hear the winger go off an turn. Most of the time they will.


Guilty as charged!


----------



## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

About 5 years ago, I ran an HRC test where the "marking" portion of the water test was a "walk-up" triple marked retrieve.

When the test dog ran and did pretty decent on it, there was a lot of grumbling in the handlers gallery; but most of the dogs did well on it. They were not gimme marks either............running water mostly, and as you turned a corner around some cattails, the first bird was launched, then the second, and then the third. The dogs didn't care whether you blew your duck call at all. IIRC, the required diversion was on this test also.


----------



## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

JoeOverby said:


> To the op...ain't no way on God's green earth am I gonna run seasoned with a dog that has master passes...might pick one up for being stupid in a finished test but I ain't wasting time in seasoned.


I agree 100%. The only thing is if HRCH is your goal, you can save $10 by getting 1 seasoned pass and 6 finished passes to get your 100 points instead of 7 finished passes.


----------



## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

dorkweed said:


> About 5 years ago, I ran an HRC test where the "marking" portion of the water test was a "walk-up" triple marked retrieve.
> 
> When the test dog ran and did pretty decent on it, there was a lot of grumbling in the handlers gallery; but most of the dogs did well on it. They were not gimme marks either............running water mostly, and as you turned a corner around some cattails, the first bird was launched, then the second, and then the third. The dogs didn't care whether you blew your duck call at all. IIRC, the required diversion was on this test also.


sounds like a fun test, or at least a good test to simulate actual hunting for jump shooting ducks


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

JoeOverby said:


> Rule book says "The Finished retriever may be failed for a “controlled break” and may be failed for excessive, consistent creeping". Doesn't say should or will be. You CANNOT require me to sit, stand, kneel, or lay down...regardless of bucket or layout blind, especially if I have a physical impairment.




This is excellent!!!

Why not just incorporate what the venue is trying to do,, and that is,, evaluate the hunting RETRIEVER?

Its about the dogs, and their ability to be a honest hunting companion..Thats ALL!! 
I have never sat on a bucket when I have hunted.

Remeber the Phrase... "Would I hunt with this dog?"
Creeping, excessive creeping, is only an issue,, if the DOG "disturbs the hunt",,and if the judge determines that the dogs movements would flair birds,be a nuisance in the blind,or distract concentration of the hunting party,, then the judge MAY fail the dog.. Just judge the performance of the dog..


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And if ya really want to judge if the dog "swings with the gun" or just will sit and mark birds that fall,, then HAND THROW the birds instead of using those noisy winger contraptions!!

But if you do this, allow the Handler to give the *DOG *the best opportunity to his dog to *SEE* those marks fall!
If that means a handler would rather stand and step up or back on the dog to get him to *SEE*,, then so be it.. Then just judge the dogs *Marking* ability.. Isnt that what it is all about??


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I also believe the rule book allows "attention getting calls" in their tests also..

I think a real attention getting call is a duck call,,not a steel pulley rattlin against a wingers frame, or the sound of Latex snapping as it hurls the birds.

When you hunt, there are attention getting sounds the dogs hear before the shooting starts! The whistling of wings, the "Greebe"sounds ducks make sometimes when the come in, Geese absolutely let you know their presence..

JMHO!


----------

