# Ok Lainee, Since Your Thread Got Trashed



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Since your thread got trashed, let's try again

1) What is the single most important lesson you learned last week in training with Cherylon? 
2) What concrete steps have you taken to implement what you have learned?
3) What are the things that are preventing you from implementing those steps?

Ted


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ted,

1) The hard part about answering your question is there is not just a single lesson. For me there were many things I learned, most of it had to do with what I was doing on the mat. So I guess if I had to say the most important to me was my work at the mat and how I interacted with the dogs. My failures which translated into the dogs failures out in the field all started with my lack of skill on the mat. 

So things I learned about the mat:

 I need to have my left foot properly aligned - to do this I found it useful to stand back behind the mat and draw a line from the gun station to the mat and make sure I used the grids on the mat to help me. For some reason I struggle with getting my foot lined up. And of course asking Cherlyon consistently if I was lined up correctly.
 I need to stand up straight when the dogs are next to me. I think because I am short, any upper body movement on my part really does over influence the dog. I finally noticed this with Bullet when I went to call for the birds, I moved my upper body ever so slightly when I raised my arm and it caused him to push away.
I need to get a wider base like you suggested, I was crowding the dogs, but I think that was a side effect of me trying not to move too much on the mat.
 I need to get faster at reacting to the dogs body language and helping them focus where I want them to go. A couple of time I would let the dog come into heel catch them looking at the wrong station and then try to push/pull as needed. By simply moving my right foot forward or back I could of given them the extra cue quickly without having to futz at the line. Now granted I was more focused on trying not to move around on the mat so this was a side effect of that, but still it is something I learned and of course need to work on.
 I also need to work on heel in general with Bullet. He acts really different with me vs. Cherlyon. I did see an improvement overall but still need to work on this with him specifically. For what ever reason he thinks he can ignore my heel command.
2) Well by being up there and running multiple dogs, over and over again, helped me to reinforce the lessons I learned. However that is still not enough. For now without a dog to work with it is more of a mental preparation. For example, the last time I trained, all I did was screw up where my foot was pointed - you were there, you saw how I messed that up, too much movement, pointed Bullet out into lala land. Well I decided from that training day fiasco I was going to pick one thing to work on and make sure I did it right at the next training day - I did just that. My foot work although not 100% perfect, it was a ton better. Of course I had the bad side effect on concrete feet, but once I get a little more comfortable with the idea of keep my left foot as the anchor vs. the foot I move around, I think that will improve. 

Every evening I went back to the hotel David and I went over what I did better and what I did wrong and what I can do to improve, we went into each morning with a game plan - i.e. standing up straight when setting up the dog - David noticed that. It is more mental than anything, I close my eyes and walk through how I'm going to get the dog on the mat, set the dog up and get the dog back for the next bird. 

For me practice is what I really need to make these lessons stick, nothing and I mean nothing can replace line time and putting my hand over dogs. Just glad Cherlyon realized I need the extra practice.

For the next time I'm up there I'm still going to work on my left foot pointing where it should, but I'm going to work on the wider base and trying to use that to get the dog into position without futzing at the line and letting them wonder where I want them to go next.

3) Well I eluded to that above. Without a dog at home to practice on the mat, it makes it hard to really work on these lessons. I could possible use Flash in front of a mirror and see what body movements I'm making without realizing it, just kind of hard with Flash as he retired.

Also this is just the main lesson I learned. There is so much more....a bunch of little stuff, especially when it comes to standards and making the dogs work vs. just going through the motions of training....

However there is a lesson I need to practice as soon as I get over this sore throat and that's my BACK/OVER growl  That I can work on without a dog.

I'm just disappointed the weather did not hold out...

Every evening I was mentally exhausted - running dogs is not as easy as it looks, especially if you are truly trying to hold up your part of the team....I see very clearly now that I have been blessed with a wonderful dog who has done more than his fair share of the team work - I need to get my game up to his level, I'm holding him back like a boat anchor.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> BACK/OVER growl


 ?????????

Of course, you are much to ladylike to growl.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Howard N said:


> ?????????
> 
> Of course, you are much to ladylike to growl.


I've been told I need to give the command in such a manner that Bullet will piss his pants cause he knows he is where he shouldn't be, right now it sounds like I'm screaming like a sissy girl on a roller coaster about to piss my own pants


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Ted, thanks for re-opening this thread in a constructive manner. 

Lainee, that was an excellent response. I had a good training session this morning, but you've got me really picking apart my line mechanics


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Lainee, you gotta relax a bit and just let it happen. I believe you way over think things and that scews things up. 
Like I mentioned to you in the PM, 1) visualize 2) focus 3) execute

You go to the line and have all these thoughts running thru your head while doing what you are suppose to be doing will trip you up. Negative thoughts bring negative results.

Please do not take this wrong, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but you make it sound as though you picked up nothing from the multiple Rorem seminars you attended. You have a wonderful dog standing next to you, don't beat yourself up so much.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Lainee!

The first thing I noticed when I started attending you guys training group is the amount of precision you all have at the line.

I watch you run, and wish I had that amount of controll.
I'm jealous!!

You guys standards are WAY,, WAY higher than anything I have ever been privy to.

Gooser


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade

I respectfully disagree with you.

Whether it is something that I have learned from Rorem, or something that I have learned from Eckett, or something that I have learned from Loveland, or whomever else ...

The first thing I do is write it down in my notebook, 
Then I run it over in my mind's eye again and again,
If it is something that I need to remember and focus on, I write it down on a 3x5 card

Every National that I have run, I prepare a 3x5 card of things that I want to make sure that I do when I run the dogs. I read the card in the holding blinds as I work my way up to the mat

I think that what Lainee is doing is imposing discipline on the process. I think that whatever she is doing is having a positive impact. More importantly, I think Cherylon believes that what Lainee is doing is having a positive impact.

I think that, by and large, people do not appreciate how much work goes into being a good handler.

I think Lainee is starting to appreciate the process

Good for her

Ted


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

Thank you Ted for re-opening!

Lainee it sounds like you learned alot and know what you need to work on. Actually reading your post has given me hope that other people feel the same way I do. Sometimes I feel like I'll never get it, but work hard and I can see where it is beginning to pay off. I like you have an incredible animal and need to learn how to play my part. Keep up the good work!! Cherlyon sounds like a great lady and maybe one day I too can go get instruction.


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## Tom D (Jan 3, 2003)

Lainee, Ted,

Thanks for a productive thread !!!!! 

Just like the old days. I guess I’ve become an old fart and have a hard time with certain changes.

Lets stay productive.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted,

I understand what you are saying and what Lainee is trying to do. However would you mind elaborating on exactly what you disagree with?

All I'm trying to say is, focus on the task at hand but don't frett over it. At some point it will or has to become 2nd nature. 

Remember that it is other Amateurs you need to beat for the most part, with a good portion of those not having the where with all that Lainee does to compete and win. Besides that having a great dog like she has is better than half the battle to compete at the AA level.

Work at it, yes but relax about it. Over thinking and always beating yourself up over small things will have more of a negative affect is my opinion.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Thanks Lainee! (and Ted for doing this)
If I ever do run a dog again, I had forgotten the whole foot thing. That is soooo important. 
Glad it went well!! (and it did, as you learned so much)


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Great thread and well thought out response Lainee; I for one believe Wade's point has some merit


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Pete said:


> Excelent thread and a great reply Lannie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lainee does not have the same standard as Cherylon when it comes to the heel would be my guess. When your dog is with Cherylon your standards pale in comparison to hers and I don't care who you are.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I don't think that Lainee is over-thinking the process. And given the choice between under- thinking the process and over-thinking it, I would choose the latter.

What's more, I have seen her training before this week, and during this week, and can say that she is getting better.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> ..
> 
> The first thing I do is write it down in my notebook,
> Then I run it over in my mind's eye again and again,
> ...


that's how I learned how to shoot skeet at a more advanced level



Wade said:


> Ted,
> 
> I understand what you are saying and what Lainee is trying to do. However would you mind elaborating on exactly what you disagree with?
> 
> ...


I would have a tendency to agree with you Wade
because as my skeet instructor taught me, sooner or later you have to ditch the help cards and make it happen on the shooting pad, it has to become second nature when you call for the bird

some people are wired to where they need a detailed "map",they tend to work out of a day planner or pda

and then some do things on the fly and just make things happen..

IMHO the key is to figure out if you need a more methodical step by step approach or if you are a "feel" type of player/handler...

the learning process that Lainee is going through will help her to determine if she needs that literal checklist or if she is able to process that information internally and play it back in slow motion during game time conditions


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

One other thing to consider, if this is Lainee's first trial dog with time she will become better. Rome was not built in a day. Be patient Lainee


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2010)

Great thread. Thanks for re-opening it. It's threads like this that makes me think about what I'm doing and how I can improve.

I believe my dog Joker is a good dog and makes me look like a better handler/trainer then I am. 

Thanks for making me keep my head in the game.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I respectfully disagree with you.
> ...
> I write it down on a 3x5 card


Good grief. 

I guess this seems overdone to me, too. I'd be interested in getting the tips from top trainer/handlers and I guess I'm a little mystified about the secrets of the mat, but

This doesn't sound like fun.

I don't want to over-do this. I really do respect "communication" with the canine partner - some dog-human teams "have it" and some don't. (Maybe some of my reaction is just the difference between Ted's approach to life and mine...)

==

My game of choice is pretty much down the toilet around here and I have been thinking about my training goals for next year. More upland work. More marks in big cover. Better cooperation on walks in the cover. But I'm starting the Lardy program with a young pup, too.

It's hard for me to know what to make of this thread...

(Oh yeah. my "natural" skeet shooting went down the toilet with a detached retina this year. I may have to go to the 3 X5 cards...)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Keith

Do it however you want.
I write things down, because I remember them.

I happen to think improving is fun.
I happen to think winning is fun.

I also happen to think that the reason that many people do not want to write things down is because it takes time and requires effort. It is nice to believe that you can learn things by osmosis. I don't subscribe to that theory of life.

But, that's just me.


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## mbcorsini (Sep 25, 2005)

This is a good thread. I have learned from the best that I miss behave at the mat. I have learned that my vertically challenged girl, likes me to stand tall a proud at all marks and blinds. I know that at I have missed cued her and have been told that by judges. Yes, i believe that this game is mental for me. I try to take as many lessons as I can. I know that this is a team sport, and that I must be a better team player.

Mary Beth


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think that it is interesting that people want to learn the "secrets" of the mat. As if there is some fairy dust or magic involved. There isn't.

Rex Carr said that field trials are won or lost on the mat. His students - Judy Aycock, Dave Rorem, and others - including Cherylon Loveland - still preach that credo. 

That means that:
- Your dog comes to heel from the holding blind to the mat by your side.
- Your dog sits when you say sit.
- Your dog follows your cues for body and head movement.

It is very easy to articulate and very difficult to consistently accomplish.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Nice thread!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

A number of people have PM'd me and asked what drills I do concerning the mat.

In the morning the day of a trial (at the Nationals, I do this by street light as you often have to be on the grounds as dawn breaks), I do the following drill.

"Sit"
I move one small step to the right. If the dog moves, I correct and say "sit."
Correction can be:
- leash correction
- stick
- collar
or combination.
I then say "Heel" 
Dog must come to my side. I use lead to make sure spine is aligned correctly.
Dog's feet must be even with mine. Dog cannot lead or lag.
I then move in increments around the clock.

Imagine you are at the center of the clock.
I might move my feet to point at 1, 2, or 3 o'clock.
Or 9, 10, or 11. 
Dog must remained seated until I say "heel"
If dog moves without command, I correct.

I try to move side to side, diagonally, and backwards. Very infrequently to the front, as most of my dogs have too much forward momentum.

To break it up, I will walk at fast pace, then stop. Dog must not lead or lag.

If time and light permit, I might include wagon wheel drills with my heeling exercise

You can follow this or create your own method. 

What you are looking to accomplish is this:
1) Sit is rock solid
2) Dog moves when you tell it to do so (see 1)
3) Dog moves in small increments (I didn't mention this earlier, but I try to make my movements small, because when you are on the mat, your movements tend to be small and subtle)
4) Dog should be close to you, close enough that its shoulder is almost touching your leg

When you are done, you want the dog to move in sync with you, as if it were attached to you


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I think that it is interesting that people want to learn the "secrets" of the mat. As if there is some fairy dust or magic involved. There isn't.
> 
> Rex Carr said that field trials are won or lost on the mat. His students - Judy Aycock, Dave Rorem, and others - including Cherylon Loveland - still preach that credo.


Ted:Not going to dispute your premise, or that of the Major but there is one common denominator that all those handler/ trainers did (including yourself) that most on here have not done....

they/you may have WON the trial on the mat...but you all did the prerequisite "homework" on the training ground, you are not going to the line with some dog that is trained hap hazardly, with no real plan or structure..you all went to the line with a dog capable of winning an AA stake because of the work done by you or your trainer

people can attend every seminar out there and be a master at the subtleties and complexities of dog handling, but if they dont train well and to be perfectly blunt dont have the dog capable of doing the job, they dont stand a chance of competing, let alone beating you...


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

perfectly blunt dont have the dog capable of doing the job, they dont stand a chance of competing, let alone beating you...
__________________
BINGO!!!! Very good post Bon. This is one of the things that I was trying to point out with Lainee. She has that dog and having that dog is over half the battle. My opinion is that the dogs talent weighs heavier on the mat than the handler.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I still think you two
are wrong.

If the dog had as much role in success as you contend, Bullet would be a Field Champion. If you want to consistently finish and place in the open having a good dog is not enough.

There are plenty of good dogs in the open.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

a good dog is not enough

a great dog is not enough

a very good dog, that is well trained, and in the hands of an experienced, battle tested handler with ice water in their veins is a match for anyone


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> perfectly blunt dont have the dog capable of doing the job, they dont stand a chance of competing, let alone beating you...
> __________________
> . My opinion is that the dogs talent weighs heavier on the mat than the handler.


What is the basis for you to conclude that....Why do you think that?

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> a good dog is not enough
> 
> a great dog is not enough
> 
> a very good dog, that is well trained, and in the hands of an experienced, battle tested handler with ice water in their veins is a match for anyone


Sounds lke a Platitude to me.


john


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

The dog and the handler are team, correct?

My opinion is comparable to some other team sports.

Hockey has 5 players on the ice, Great goaltending wins championships

Baseball has 9 players on the field, Great pitching is the equalizer

Football plays with 22, great defenses win championships

If the dog has the talent and has the training, then it is my opinion that the more talented the dog the great the equalizer. It is my opinion that a talent dog can alter the outcome more than a talented handler. Like Bon said, you can be the 2nd coming to our Savior as a handler but if you don't have the dog GOOD LUCK!!


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I still think you two
> are wrong.
> 
> If the dog had as much role in success as you contend, Bullet would be a Field Champion. If you want to consistently finish and place in the open having a good dog is not enough.
> ...


As a Amateur to win in the Open Ted you know as well as anyone that is not going to happen all that often. Beating Pro's with 10-15 bullets and you have one is a nearly impossible task. 

No disrespect but I believe your comparison is a poor one.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

> The dog and the handler are team, correct?
> 
> My opinion is comparable to some other team sports.
> 
> ...



I look at the handler more as the coach of the team than another player, Wade. So does Billichek make Brady a champion or Brady make Billichek? Did P Manning make Dungy or Dungy make Manning? Don't matter how much more talent you have than most teams, at some point, you will run up against another team (dog) with as much or more talent and training, and then it comes down to one coach (handler) beating the other coach.

my .02

Now, since the birds aren't cooperating this week, I think all this talk will get me out training again - both Toby and me!!;-)


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

Lainee, 

Could you briefly explain the structure and spacing of the gridlines on the mat you mentioned in reply to Ted's question?

Thanks.

Matt


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Wade said:


> Lainee, you gotta relax a bit and just let it happen. I believe you way over think things and that scews things up.
> Like I mentioned to you in the PM, 1) visualize 2) focus 3) execute
> 
> You go to the line and have all these thoughts running thru your head while doing what you are suppose to be doing will trip you up. Negative thoughts bring negative results.


That is the ultimate goal. I want everything to come second nature to me, but at this stage in my growing/learning I'm not there yet. I am an engineer by trade and I naturally like to have things be very methodical until I can make sense of it all and right now that's what I'm doing. I pay Cherlyon very good money to train my dog and it does me no good if I don't try and learn how she handles my dog and gets the results she gets out of him. Her style is very different from what I know now.



Wade said:


> Please do not take this wrong, I mean absolutely no disrespect, but you make it sound as though you picked up nothing from the multiple Rorem seminars you attended. You have a wonderful dog standing next to you, don't beat yourself up so much.


Oh no, I learned a ton from Rorem, the biggest thing was to keep my emotions out of the equation. I don't know how many on RTF was at the first one I attended but I remember Rorem asked me a question - I was so nervous I couldn't even talk, my emotions were high as a kite. He taught me many things, but at a seminar he doesn't have the time to nit pick everything a handler is doing. For example, he emphasizes simplifying communication on the mat with the dog, but at the time I was moving so much on the mat that just getting me to slow down was simplifying communication. Now with Cherlyon, she is able to connect some of those dots for me....simplifying communication is so much more than just not stumbling around on the mat. 

I would never under play the importance of the lessons I learned from Rorem.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Paralysis from analysis...

There are good handlers and then there are those who try to be good handlers.

Just like there are good golf swings and there are those who try to have good golf swings.

You are what you are.

Of course anyone can improve on any aspect in life by studying, implementing, and working to become better.

But handling takes a certain "knack".

There is so much feel and anticipation involved. Knowing an animals, your animals tendencies. Knowing when to take a chance on a test at a trial or when not to take a chance...

You give Danny Farmer a good dog on a MFer test, I'll take him over the "barney" with a great dog on the same test. Danny is a good trainer, but he's a better handler. He's just got that "knack". He can talk a dog into believing where a bird is when it doesn't.

So I don't care how loud you say back, when to take a step with what cast, blah...blah...blah...

You either got it, or you don't.

If you got it, you can become real good.

If you don't, your gonna get better but never good.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> A number of people have PM'd me and asked what drills I do concerning the mat.
> 
> In the morning the day of a trial (at the Nationals, I do this by street light as you often have to be on the grounds as dawn breaks), I do the following drill.
> 
> ...


I have been doing this drill daily now for quite some time. Actually since the last time I was training with Teds and Lainees group, and Ted showed me this. 

My dog is much improved moving with me, and sitting untill I tell her to move.What I fear now, is how she will respond when the excitement of guns, birds, other dogs ect get back into the mix.

I am convinced I have a dog that could have been alot better, if I had had the *education* and *conviction* to do my part as the handler. I let standards slip, didnt teach all that well, and bit by bit, bad handler habits developed into a huge problem overall.

I believe Teds and Lainees thoughts concerning handleing practices apply wether you are compeating, testing, or just plain hunting.

I am an awfull handler! way to nervous, and I get rattled way to easily.

Gooser


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Pete said:


> Excelent thread and a great reply Lannie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pete,

We had only begun to discuss this late Wednesday and unfortunately Thursday the snow storm rolled in, so we never got to finish the discussion.

But here is my take on it....Bullet and I had an understanding which is not at the same level of expectations that he and Cherlyon have. So I'm in the process of adjusting Bullet's understanding of my new expectations. This will take some time, but because I know he can perform at the desired level, there is no reason he can't perform for me, too.

Bullet isn't no dummy! And he was not very happy with these new expectations, however at the end of the day he was still my happy go lucky goofy dog....

And this wasn't only true with Bullet, the other dogs I had the privilege of running also behaved differently for me, but as Cherlyon mentored me, I started to get the appropriate responses out of them, too.

FOM


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Paralysis from analysis...
> 
> There are good handlers and then there are those who try to be good handlers.
> 
> ...


I'm more inclined to agree with this than what some others have offered.

john


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

mattm337 said:


> Lainee,
> 
> Could you briefly explain the structure and spacing of the gridlines on the mat you mentioned in reply to Ted's question?
> 
> ...











Matt,

Put your feet in the center square, the dog should be in the square to your left, his feet should not be in front of you, the spine alignment should line up with the lines on the mat, the butt should not be in the square behind you nor off the mat to the left, ideally the dog is sitting in the square to your left (granted a larger dog like Bullet won't fit in a single square) His rear feet should be squared up and under him not splayed out to either side and his front legs should be completely under him too, not putting weight on a single leg (if it is the left front leg, then you are pushing, if front right leg then you are pulling - you shouldn't be doing either). Then you pivot to your right, staying in the center square and the dog should follow when you say heel - they should not move until you tell them. For now we are practicing 90 degree turns, but once you as the handler under stand the proper dog alignment then you can spread your wings and go for smaller increments, for now I'm trying to teach Bullet the big picture with me at the helm - Cherlyon can get the finer movements from him, I can't yet. Then you can move to the center square to the right and have the dog move directly right....the directions you can move are endless. For Bullet and I we are working going to my right for now, going to the left over emphasizes his desire to curl behind me....once we get the basic lesson taught, we can build on it.

Hope that helps,

Lainee

BTW, this type of mat really helps with lining things up....


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

For example, he emphasizes simplifying communication on the mat with the dog, but at the time I was moving so much on the mat that just getting me to slow down was simplifying communication. Now with Cherlyon, she is able to connect some of those dots for me....simplifying communication is so much more than just not stumbling around on the mat. 

I believe I might have mentioned this to you as well in the PM, 

TEMPO, TEMPO TEMPO

Continued success with your training time with Cherylon!!!!


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

Lainee,

The explanation was exactly what I was after. Thank you. 

Is that a 3' x 3' mat? Where did you find it?

Matt


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Kevinismybrother said:


> I look at the handler more as the coach of the team than another player, Wade. So does Billichek make Brady a champion or Brady make Billichek? Did P Manning make Dungy or Dungy make Manning? Don't matter how much more talent you have than most teams, at some point, you will run up against another team (dog) with as much or more talent and training, and then it comes down to one coach (handler) beating the other coach.
> 
> my .02
> 
> Now, since the birds aren't cooperating this week, I think all this talk will get me out training again - both Toby and me!!;-)


That is one way to look at it Dennis and that is fine. My opinion is the opposite.

Belicheck as good as he is doesn't not have the rings without Brady, nor does Dungy without Manning.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

mattm337 said:


> Lainee,
> 
> The explanation was exactly what I was after. Thank you.
> 
> ...


They are the 3x3 anti-fatigue mats that you can get at almost in major hardware store - Home Depot, Lowes, etc...


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Paralysis from analysis...
> 
> There are good handlers and then there are those who try to be good handlers.
> 
> ...



Very good post Ken!!! Thanks for sharing.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

so what happens when you are hunting? do you have to carry a mat with you? or do you not hunt these dogs? seems like a good hunting season would wipe all you work on right out of the dog.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

David,

Currently Bullet has only been hunted on doves because he is normally with my trainer for winter training when duck season rolls around here. 

And the mat is for training, not hunting, let's not turn this into FTs vs. HTs vs. Meat Dogs, okay....

And most FT dogs that are hunted know the difference between hunting and trialing, once a standard is taught and maintained, it doesn't take much to keep the standard high.

Lainee


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Very good post Ken!!! Thanks for sharing.


Wade

I suggest you speak with David, who
is now training your dog. I am pretty sure he would not
agree with either you or Ken


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Wade
> 
> I suggest you speak with David, who
> is now training your dog. I am pretty sure he would not
> agree with either you or Ken


Ted,

Does it matter if there is an agreement between anyone?

As shown over the years on RTF, getting the vast majority to agree on anything is impossible.

When it comes to what makes a good handler, how to become a better one, and who teaches them the best...

Individuals will have a vested interest in what they think is right and how it fits them as it pertains to dog games.

Like I said before, I believe you either got it or you don't. Those who "got it" can get better. Those ones become good or great.

Those that don't "got it" ain't ever getting great. Might get sufficient with a dog that's good...an uncordinated handler or one who can't read a dog just ain't going be very successful.

I also believe these siminars come with a marketing ploy. Do this, do that, these are the tricks that will get you to the next level. 

PLEASE.....

Hard work, a good dog, knowledge, and that "knack" will make you successful.

I don't care if you go to a Rorem siminar, train with Loveland, or heel you dog in the dark for two decades...it ain't happening without the above.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> from analysis...
> 
> There are good handlers and then there are those who try to be good handlers.
> 
> ...


I disagree. But, I hope other people listen to you.

It makes my life easier


----------



## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*I have loved reading this thread!! Very good thread!!! Here is my take:

1. You must have a talented dog to compete at the AA level week in and week out. You must have a talented dog and a good handler to place in a AA stake week in and week out! Sure every squirrel will find a nut every now and then but you have to have all in place to be competitive. Picking up this obsession in the last 10 years I can tell you this, starting out I thought I had talented dogs, until you stand over a talented dog, it is hard to explain.....some dogs just have IT!! Others do not! I have been fortunate enough to stand over what I would call very talented dogs in the last few years and I can tell you, once you have a dog that can bring home the goods........more falls on the handler!!! If you have a great dog and a poor handler......chances are not good. I have had to study and write things down like Ted talks about trying to ensure that I give my guys the best opportunity every weekend.

2. Standards must be high!!!! I have a guy that is my buddy, one of my best friends and I miss him a ton while he is south!! When he came back this spring I loved him up and trained the way I thought we needed to be training to be successful.....my standards were not as high with him as they needed to be and thus the first few trials we ran this year he and I stunk the place up!!! Figuring out that I had slipped on some standards and reinforcing them over the next month when we went to trials at the end of the summer he was always right there and we did a lot better. Not the colors we were looking for but at least we were in the hunt so to say! You have to keep your standards high.....all of the time or you will not be as successful as you can be.

3. I wish I could take the time and come and train with the LPC! I know I would learn a lot. I am jealous of those that are able to train with large groups that are able to get together on a regular basis. Someday when I retire maybe that might be the case but until then, we will keep taking notes and learning from others.

Rambling Regards,

Aaron*


----------



## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

FOM said:


> David,
> 
> Currently Bullet has only been hunted on doves because he is normally with my trainer for winter training when duck season rolls around here.
> 
> ...


but the mat is not just training, is it? is it not also for trialing? we get mats often in HTs too, so your concepts have a lot of crossover i think, thats why i have been following this thread(s) with great interest although i am light years behind..

i just know how hunting - more specifically not handling your dog as you should/could etc when hunting - even just doves - - can really mess up a HT season if you arent careful. i imagine it _has_ to be the same for FT. fortunately i hunt alone or with my son the most, so i have more control. but i remember when hunting with another person/dog things got a bit "looser" and i had issues to correct at the end of the season.

no harm intended, just wondering about "balance". seems tough to me at that level if you do both. as incredibly precise as you guys are at the line i can see it being a tough balance if hunting too.


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree. But, I hope other people listen to you.
> 
> It makes my life easier


I think it's safe to say most won't listen to me.

But if they read my sig line all will be explained.


----------



## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

Lainee,

I thought that's what the mat was, but wanted to be sure.

Thanks again.

-------------------
Others of the "you're either born with it or not" school: that idea goes against everything that is being learned in research about elite performers, whether pianists or athletes. The rule of thumb in that research (and I'd be happy to provide references) is that 10,000 hours of planned and properly executed practice for humans puts one in the range of truly elite-level activity. Now before someone correctly says that 10,000 hours was not going to make my 5'7" frame into a NBA center, the assumption is that it's for an activity appropriate to one's physique.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Ted,
> 
> Does it matter if there is an agreement between anyone?
> 
> I don't care if you go to a Rorem siminar, train with Loveland, or heel you dog in the dark for two decades...it ain't happening without the above.


Ken

There is very little about the dogs where you and I agree.

I am a pretty good athlete. Handball, squash, tennis, rifle/pistol shooting, skiing, bicycling, snowboarding .... all came pretty easily to me.

The practice of law came pretty easy to me, too.

So, I know what it is to have a "knack" at things.

I didn't have much of a "knack" when I started running dogs. But, I worked with people who knew what they were doing, listened to them, worked at improving and I think I am more than decent at it now.

So, I say from a personal standpoint that you are wrong on this.

But, I am fine if people think that they are what they are and don't work to get better. Like I said, it just makes my task easier.


----------



## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

David, the mat as talked about earlier is a training tool to help handlers align the dog properly. It gives the handler a quick reference to look and see if handler and dog are pointed in the right direction. Think of it as one more tool for your box to help you become the best handler you can be. In hunting or competion you may not always have a mat or it may be places diagonaly or cock eyed. In training its placed so it is a training aid.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> The mat is for training ....


Not all FT tests have mats, either. The mat is a good aid for alignment. But, as you get better and better at dog alignment, you rely less and less upon the mat


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> As a Amateur to win in the Open Ted you know as well as anyone that is not going to happen all that often. Beating Pro's with 10-15 bullets and you have one is a nearly impossible task.
> 
> No disrespect but I believe your comparison is a poor one.


No disrespect, but I don't think you got the point.

If the dog was as influential as you contend it is, and if Bullet is as good a dog as you say he is, and if the handler is as insignificant as you claim she is, then
- Bullet should have more places than he does
- Bullet should be an AFC
- Bullet should be a FC (he doesn't have to win or place every weekend, he JUST needs a win and 5 points)

The fact that Bullet is not FC/AFC points to several facts:
- This game is very hard
- You have to have a good dog (and Bullet is)
- You have to be a good handler (and Lainee is getting there)
- Your contention is wrong.


----------



## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Not all FT tests have mats, either. The mat is a good aid for alignment. But, as you get better and better at dog alignment, you rely less and less upon the mat


sorry - thanks - and mike too. my experience at FT's involves watching all of 3 series of a national, and all had mats, so i thought it was pretty much standard.


----------



## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Lainee,

I applaud your efforts to improve as a handler. I recall feeling a sense of paralysis by analysis, but ultimately, with lots of repetitions under the watch of great coaches, one establishes a routine, awareness of alignment & spacing, and a sense of timing, rhythm and nuance.
By developing an understanding of the factors that matter at the mat, you are well on your way and will get better and better with time and repetition.

You have the right attitude, you are willing to put in the time and make the sacrifices needed to succeed. I'm confident you will achieve your goals with Bullet and I look forward to hearing about that.

Jeff


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

jeff t. said:


> Lainee,
> 
> I applaud your efforts to improve as a handler. I recall feeling a sense of paralysis by analysis, but ultimately, with lots of repetitions under the watch of great coaches, one establishes a routine, awareness of alignment & spacing, and a sense of timing, rhythm and nuance.
> By developing an understanding of the factors that matter at the mat, you are well on your way and will get better and better with time and repetition.
> ...


I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

david gibson said:


> sorry - thanks - and mike too. my experience at FT's involves watching all of 3 series of a national, and all had mats, so i thought it was pretty much standard.


The mats at a National are typically like a black door mat with the Purina Logo on them, so that they are not as useful in helping you align the dog as the mat Lainee depicted earlier

As you get better and better at it, you naturally align your feet in the right direction, pick a distinctive feature in the field a foot or two from your feet, and align the dog as it comes to the mat, or returns from a retrieve without having to look out into the field, and then down at your feet again.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> pick a distinctive feature in the field a foot or two from your feet,


Rorem's spot bowling?


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I am a pretty good athlete. Handball, squash, tennis, rifle/pistol shooting, skiing, bicycling, snowboarding ....


Are those sports?

Lol


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Are those sports?
> 
> Lol


More than squatting on your butt and putting your mitt out


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Are those sports?
> 
> Lol


     

Reminds me of the time one of my engineers, a short Indonesian asked a couple of the tall lean engineers in the group what position they played in Basketball. Their reply - we played Volleyball. The Indonesian says "I thought that was a girls sport". But at least VB is a team sport.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

FOM said:


> Matt,
> 
> Put your feet in the center square, the dog should be in the square to your left, his feet should not be in front of you, the spine alignment should line up with the lines on the mat, the butt should not be in the square behind you nor off the mat to the left, ideally the dog is sitting in the square to your left (granted a larger dog like Bullet won't fit in a single square) His rear feet should be squared up and under him not splayed out to either side and his front legs should be completely under him too, not putting weight on a single leg (if it is the left front leg, then you are pushing, if front right leg then you are pulling - you shouldn't be doing either). *Then you pivot to your right, staying in the center square and the dog should follow when you say heel - they should not move until you tell them.* For now we are practicing 90 degree turns, but once you as the handler under stand the proper dog alignment then you can spread your wings and go for smaller increments, for now I'm trying to teach Bullet the big picture with me at the helm - Cherlyon can get the finer movements from him, I can't yet. Then you can move to the center square to the right and have the dog move directly right....the directions you can move are endless. For Bullet and I we are working going to my right for now, going to the left over emphasizes his desire to curl behind me....once we get the basic lesson taught, we can build on it.
> 
> ...


Lainee

I just thought Ya was standin on a mat to keep yer boots from gettin muddy!

I'm confused!

If you want movement to the right (pull the dog) isnt the command "here"?

If you want movement to the left (push the dog) isnt the command "heel"?

Is this just semantics?

Help me (impossible?)

Gooser


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Gooser,

I'm kind of new to this form of training - I'm from the school of here/heel mean exactly as you describe. 

Now sit means sit.
Heel means move, and align yourself next to me.
Here means move your head - which from what I can tell you is usually for a pull because you normally step up to push.

Makes sense?

I also find this a simpler way to communicate, cause I always got heel/here backwards.

Lainee


----------



## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm a little confused as to why people think improving handling skills is a waste of time. In every other dog sport, handling is considered extremely important. 

In Obedience, you practice stopping as much as starting. 
In agility, NQ's are rarely the dog's fault. It's more likely your feet were pointing the wrong direction. If the dog goes off course, it's because you sent him there.
In disc, you're not going anywhere if you can't throw the dang frisbee. 
In herding trials the handler has as much influence on where the sheep go as the dog does. 

I'm operating under the assumption that someone is entering HT/FT because they enjoy it. Why _wouldn't_ you want to get better at something you enjoy?


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Got it!

Thanks!

Gooser


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Shih 
pick a distinctive feature in the field a foot or two from your feet, 

Rorem's spot bowling?


No Disrespect to Ted or Dave but as I told Lainee in a PM this is a technigue made famous by a golfer named Jack Nicklaus and it is a technigue I told Lainee to try. Here is most of the context of that PM


I was a scratch golfer before I got back into this maddening game we play, using this set up/alignment analogy has helped me on the mat, along with a few other golf thought processes.

Jack Nicklaus when lining his body up for a shot would do this. Jack would stand behind his ball and with his eyes follow the target line to the target. Then he would bring his eyes from the target back down the target line to a spot roughly 5-7 feet in front of his ball. Jack would then step into the address position and align his shoulders, hips and feet to that target line. Once in the address position he would look at the target ONLY one time before executing the shot. He would however look several times at the spot 5-7 feet in front of his ball. He ALIGNED his body to that spot. 

Once you have sent your dog on the first mark of the quad step behind the mat and find that spot 5-7 feet in front of the mat for your next bird and align from that spot. 
When you run a blind, same thing. however you will need to determine your address spot when you stand on the mat after the test dog or at a time the judges give you permission to "take a look".


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> No disrespect, but I don't think you got the point.
> 
> If the dog was as influential as you contend it is, and if Bullet is as good a dog as you say he is, and if the handler is as insignificant as you claim she is, then
> - Bullet should have more places than he does
> ...



No disrespect taken Ted. No problem at all, you have your opinion and I have mine. I am not right nor am I wrong. You are not right nor are you wrong. We have opinions that differ is all and debate is good. I believe there have been valid points made by several people. Each of us has to sort out what we feel is best and move forward to achieve what it is we want to achieve.

25 minutes till midnight here in Minny so I will say it, HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and your family. Success in 2011 to all RTFers in your field trials or your hunt tests!!!!


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

RaeganW said:


> I'm a little confused as to why people think improving handling skills is a waste of time. In every other dog sport, handling is considered extremely important.
> 
> In Obedience, you practice stopping as much as starting.
> In agility, NQ's are rarely the dog's fault. It's more likely your feet were pointing the wrong direction. If the dog goes off course, it's because you sent him there.
> ...



Who said anything about not wanting to get better? I think we all strive to get better, some look to do it one way, while others look in a different direction.


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> More than squatting on your butt and putting your mitt out




I'd say the revenue generated from the sport you mention compared to the combined you participated in settles any debate.



Squash??? Are you serious. 

Happy New Years Ted.

You know I love you.


----------



## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

Wade said:


> The dog and the handler are team, correct?
> 
> ...
> 
> If the dog has the talent and has the training, then it is my opinion that the more talented the dog the great the equalizer. It is my opinion that a talent dog can alter the outcome more than a talented handler. Like Bon said, you can be the 2nd coming to our Savior as a handler but if you don't have the dog GOOD LUCK!!





Ken Guthrie said:


> You are what you are.
> 
> Of course anyone can improve on any aspect in life by studying, implementing, and working to become better.
> 
> But handling takes a certain "knack".


If the dog is more than half the team, and if you don't have a "knack" for it, why bother trying at all? Don't bother trying to improve your *half* of the team, just get a better dog!

Maybe I'm picking my words wrong. Even in the top levels of agility (which is the sport I have the most experience with), no dog qualifies on every run, not by a longshot. Very, very rarely, I am almost comfortable saying "never," is it the dog's fault. It's because the handler made some tiny, unconscious movement that the dog read correctly, but misinterpreted as intentional. It's magnified in agility because both parties are running very fast, but why should it be any different in HT/FT? Strong handling skills are a competitive edge.


----------



## Guest (Jan 1, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> if you don't have a "knack" for it, why bother trying at all?


For the same reason we would attempt to better ourselves in any aspect of our lives. Who is truly born as a true "natural"? Just because Ted said he had a knack for certain activities doesn't mean he was perfect at them from day one. Handling dogs took being a bit more of a student. Does that mean he should have given up when he realized he didn't have the "knack" he had for his other hobbies?

RaeganW, welcome to RTF. Care to tell us a bit about yourself?


----------



## Guest (Jan 1, 2011)

I just reread your edited message and realize you were being facetious. 

It is really hard to tell here sometimes! You will see what I mean...


----------



## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Wade said:


> perfectly blunt dont have the dog capable of doing the job, they dont stand a chance of competing, let alone beating you...
> __________________
> BINGO!!!! Very good post Bon. This is one of the things that I was trying to point out with Lainee. She has that dog and having that dog is over half the battle. My opinion is that the dogs talent weighs heavier on the mat than the handler.


Although having a very capable dog, wouldn't handler induced errors or inefficiencies hold it back from being the best competitor it can be? In addition, it sounds like you are happy enough with allowing a dog to bailout a handler, in a game of inches.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

kjrice said:


> Although having a very capable dog, wouldn't handler induced errors or inefficiencies hold it back from being the best competitor it can be? In addition, it sounds like you are happy enough with allowing a dog to bailout a handler, in a game of inches.


Without benefit of valid supportive arguments the guy has opined in 13 posts on this thread alone. While I would not bet on it, if he keeps at it posting at that rate, just by the law of random chance that something will occur in a large enough sampling, he may eventually get something RIGHT yet 

john


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Good read.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Without benefit of valid supportive arguments the guy has opined in 13 posts on this thread alone. While I would not bet on it, _if he keeps at it posting at that rate, just by the law of random chance that something will occur in a large enough sampling, he may eventually get something RIGHT yet_
> 
> john


So...... you are taking on a young Padawan, John?;-);-)



.


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I have no business even posting here as I am NOT a very good handler. I DO wish to say that I admire Ted and Lainee for their success and hard work trying to get better. One of the things I do when I attend a FT is watch the handlers more than the dog. I have seen in my opinion some very good handlers that HELP their dog a whole lot more than others. One of the things I have noticed is the importance of foot placement as a help for setting a dog up. Lainee I think it is GREAT that you have the oppertunity to be helped by Cherylon Loveland, Her puppy book is very good and I started my dog with that and it is very revealing. I think from what I have witnessed is this:
To be competitive you have to have 3 things 
1) a good dog
2) be a Good handler
3) Make your own Luck by hard work.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

FOM said:


> Gooser,
> 
> I'm kind of new to this form of training - I'm from the school of here/heel mean exactly as you describe.
> 
> ...


Your que's can be what ever you want them to be as long as you are consistent in that approach. Much of the mat work should be addressed in wagonwheel lining drills. This is where you can really work on your own mechanics as well as learning to read your dog. I would be concerned if I had to repeatedly advise a handler that their left foot needs to be pointed in the direction they want to get their dog to go. So I would agree with Ken in regard that some people have it and some people don't. If a handler is constantly being coached on rudimentary fundimentals such as the left foot issue, I would be concerned with their overall commitment to achieving progress.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> So...... you are taking on a young Padawan, John?;-);-)
> 
> 
> 
> .


Ony a Padawan......all though I should have known better I figured Jedi for sure

john


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

greg magee said:


> If a handler is constantly being coached on rudimentary fundimentals such as the left foot issue, I would be concerned with their overall commitment to achieving progress.


Well Greg,

As I told Ted many, many years ago, don't you worry about my commitment (huh Ted  )....my left foot placement has zero to do with it. 

I'll stick with CL correcting me for my poor foot alignment, my inadvertent pushing of Bullet, my sissy back command....I hope that in the next few times I train with her I master those skills and she can find other things for me to work on....and maybe between her training Bullet and me, I'll manage to meet my personal goals.

The day I stop trying to improve myself as a handler/trainer is the day that a person can honestly question my commitment, until then "go pound sand."

Lainee


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> The day I stop trying to improve myself as a handler/trainer is the day that a person can honestly question my commitment, until then "go pound sand."
> 
> Lainee


Hey, I have an idea

Why don't we ask Greg and John to tell us about all of their successes in the sport, and what they have done to achieve such heights


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Hey, I have an idea
> 
> Why don't we ask Greg and John to tell us about all of their successes in the sport, and what they have done to achieve such heights


What is success ? 

Is it having someone pick out your puppies, train them for you, tell you which ones to keep and which ones to wash out............. then spending untold time $$$$ on how to handle because you have not been born with that knack.........?

I don't know about any of that, so perhaps I should defer to someone who does just that.


john


----------



## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Well, the year is off to a good start ;-)...

Lainee, just keep working at it and make sure you and bullet are enjoying the journey. That's success in itself. It is amazing how much a skillful team can communicate - FT's, HT's, and in general.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Hey Falcon

I am interested in learning the secrets of a man with decades in the sport, who actually saw Super Chief run. So, instead of telling everyone what they do wrong, why don't you tell people what you have done to improve your handling skills.

Or maybe you were just born with the knack?

Inquiring minds want to know


----------



## 24116 (May 8, 2004)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Well, the year is off to a good start ;-)...
> 
> Lainee, just keep working at it and make sure you and bullet are enjoying the journey. That's success in itself. It is amazing how much a skillful team can communicate - FT's, HT's, and in general.


Great advice for all of us.
Good luck Lainee


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I sure like Keith Stroyan's attitude for the New Year!

What happened to Lainee's original thread on this topic? (I know, I'm probably supposed to "know"...but I don't!)

Happy New Year! Go Lainee and Bullet!


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Chris,

I locked it, cause it got a little personal....and was losing it's productivity.

Lainee


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Hey Falcon
> 
> I am interested in learning the secrets of a man with decades in the sport, who actually saw Super Chief run. So, instead of telling everyone what they do wrong, why don't you tell people what you have done to improve your handling skills.
> 
> ...



Because some judges, perhaps even yourself, drop clean handles in favor of protracted hunts, I seldom "handle" on marks

Because some people feel that they must interfere with a good marking dog in order for the dog to "get" the bird, they insert themselves unduly into the marking set up sometimes to the detriment of the mark and often conspicuously and in violation of the rules. I do neither,and the direction of my feet is that they are never pointing at the Judges ,If I have a late number and identify a succesfull order of pick up I will "select", but for the most part I just point and shoot;-)

Did I say which way to have your feet pointing, it's very important, so you might want to write it in your notes;-)

john


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> Chris,
> 
> I locked it, cause it got a little personal....and was losing it's productivity.
> 
> Lainee


And it was "your" thread? That stinks! Are the same pokers jabbing sticks at the wasp nest today? Or are they off getting ready for Penn State to whoop up on the Gators?

Maybe we should PM each other on this.

We are............




Penn State!


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Without benefit of valid supportive arguments the guy has opined in 13 posts on this thread alone. While I would not bet on it, if he keeps at it posting at that rate, just by the law of random chance that something will occur in a large enough sampling, he may eventually get something RIGHT yet
> 
> john





john fallon said:


> Ony a Padawan......all though I should have known better I figured Jedi for sure
> 
> john





john fallon said:


> What is success ?
> 
> Is it having someone pick out your puppies, train them for you, tell you which ones to keep and which ones to wash out............. then spending untold time $$$$ on how to handle because you have not been born with that knack.........?
> 
> ...


This is/was a very good thread for those of us still learning the nuances of this game.

How about, as your New Years resolution, you start contributing something worthwhile to threads rather than turning them into spit ball fights which ultimately derail them?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Interesting, isn't it, how some people - like you, John

Never fail to criticize what other people do to improve their skills
But are unable to offer any suggestions to others

Could it be that you have nothing to offer?
Or perhaps you might but unwilling to subject your legitimate thoughts to the criticism of people like you, whose sole purpose in life to rain on other people's parades?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> This is/was a very good thread for those of us still learning the nuances of this game.
> 
> How about, as your New Years resolution, you start contributing something worthwhile to threads rather than turning them into spit ball fights which ultimately derail them?




It is disappointing to me, how Fallon managed to ruin the first thread, and then once this thread got rolling, is working at making it happen again


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Lets all take a deep breath and a step back.

Find it within yourself to ignore the attacks and move forward with what the original thread/topic was suppose to be about.

Lainee, are you training today or is it still snowing in CO?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

As I posted on this previous thread, it is an unfortunate fact of human nature that some people choose to try to elevate themselves by degrading the accomplishments of others.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

HAPPY NEW YEAR Ed!!!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> It is disappointing to me, how Fallon managed to ruin the first thread, and then once this thread got rolling, is working at making it happen again



Ted, you and Wade have posted on these threads an inordinate number of times.

I do not agree with all of your posts .When I post so , I am meet with a barrage of personal insults, When I respond to them I am the one ruiing thr thread.

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I agree John

You are the thread killer

Wonderful claim to fame, isn't it?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Ted, you and Wade have posted on these threads an inordinate number of times.
> 
> I do not agree with all of your posts .When I post so , I am meet with a barrage of personal insults, When I respond to them I am the one ruiing thr thread.
> 
> john


1: What does it matter if they have posted in these type threads numerous times? 

2: I can't recall you ever giving your take on things. All you do is spin your simple semantics around in the form of personal attacks.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Wade said:


> Lainee, are you training today or is it still snowing in CO?


Not snowing, but still very, very cold, plus the roads are not very vehicle friendly. I'm also getting over a cold - got to love family gatherings. Also I'm kind of enjoying hanging out with the pumpkin head puppy we have.

Lainee


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Interesting, isn't it, how some people - like you, John
> 
> Never fail to criticize what other people do to improve their skills
> But are unable to offer any suggestions to others
> ...


Let me say it again.

Little happens at the trial to be successfull on a set A marks that has not been taught in training.
With the proper training in place, if the dog marks the bird, it feels good and it looks easy ..If you are suggesting that some how the handler can overcome training or line manners shortfalls with handling techniques you are sadly mistaken.

With a jourenyman AA well trained dog with good line manners that can mark , without being case specific, what are you talking about . 

john


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FOM said:


> Not snowing, but still very, very cold, plus the roads are not very vehicle friendly. I'm also getting over a cold - got to love family gatherings. Also I'm kind of enjoying hanging out with the pumpkin head puppy we have.
> 
> Lainee


Dangerous driving conditions, snow cover, and a current temperature of 12 degrees would certainly be enough to keep the hardiest indoors and I'm guessing if you overcame all of that you would find yourself training alone.

Enjoy your day, Happy New Year, and no (Bullet's ability notwithstanding) I won't trade dogs with you...........

40 degrees and sunny here today, come stay awhile and continue to sharpen your handler's skill.....


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Dr. Ed,

Okay, I'll keep Bullet and take Holland! 

Happy New Year to you, too!

I'll be down for at least a week once CL heads down for sure!

Lainee


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Let me say it again.
> 
> Little happens at the trial to be successfull on a set A marks that has not been taught in training.
> With the proper training in place, if the dog marks the bird, it feels good and it looks easy ..If you are suggesting that some how the handler can overcome training or line manners shortfalls with handling techniques you are sadly mistaken.
> ...


So, John, are you saying that, as long as you have a good dog that is trained to the AA level and marked every bird, the handlers only job is to hand the chickens to the judge?

Trying to learn regards,


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Hey, I have an idea
> 
> Why don't we ask Greg and John to tell us about all of their successes in the sport, and what they have done to achieve such heights


Theodore, I thought I was on your ignore list. But I digress. My accomplishments and experiences are well documented in previous threads and post. The successes that I have had are the direct result of taking an 8 week old puppy and turning that dog into an all age competitor. All the while working, coaching football, basketball, & baseball. My success with the few dogs that I've competed with were a direct result of hard work and diligence. I play the hand I'm delt and don't make a habit out of washing dogs out. 
If you want to count success, by running a dog that someone else trained so be it. When you want to compare apple to apples, let me know.


My intent was not to throw the O/P under the bus, although in retrospect it does appear that way. My apologies for that. I applaud the O/P's attempt to improve their handling mechanics. As should we all. In my defense, when you list your deficiencies in a post, some opportunity for coaching exist. But like most athletes today. They can't tell the difference between coaching or criticism. I've challenged many a would be athlete to question the amount of dedication they are willing to put forth, and not once was told to go pound sand. Many rose to the occassion, others ended up on the bench with the other also rans.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FOM said:


> I'll be down for at least a week once CL heads down for sure!
> Lainee


The Welcome mat will be out!


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

EdA said:


> The Welcome mat will be out!


and lined up correctly for her arrival, i assume?? ;-)


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> Okay, I'll keep Bullet and take Holland!


Actually, you can't keep Bullet. You gave him to me last year. He's mine, and should be making his way to the midwest..... actually Georgia.  But, you can take Holland..... that's between you and Dr. Ed.


Long memory regards-


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

greg magee said:


> But like most athletes today. They can't tell the difference between coaching or criticism.


Interesting observation. Why do you think most can't tell the difference? 

Just curious,
Kathryn


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> So, John, are you saying that, as long as you have a good dog that is trained to the AA level and marked every bird, the handlers only job is to hand the chickens to the judge?
> 
> Trying to learn regards,


As I said in post 95 of this thread, "If I have a late number and identify a succesfull order of pick up I will "select", but for the most part I just point and shoot".

Generically speaking the following applies to my statemet:

Training to the AA level includes the ability to "Select"
In training we normaly pick up the last bird down first. In a trial If I have an early number thats how the dog will most often want to do it, with the exception of maybe an OOF, so that's how I would attempt to pick it up.

The second bird is a little If-ie . *If *it is the next shortist bird down and is on the outside it is a prime candidate to be sent for second unless there is what appears to be a compelling reason not tp do so.
If it is a triple you then pick up the last bird.

If it is a quad, under normal circumstances but depending on the setup, it, bird #3 that is, would be the next shortest bird down. again, this is where running later has its advantages. 

If the dog acnowledges the short bird I will attept to get it first. This is my preference since if you miss it and push long you still have a second bite at tes apple

If the long bird is a very inviting one and the dog wants it, and I see no pitfalls for doing so, I will not only aquess but i will reinforce the dogs decision by emboldenig it with a big send.

So the answer to your question is normaly yes, .... if the dog has marked ALL the birds for the most part you are simply handing the bird to the Judges.

john


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

greg magee said:


> In my defense, when you list your deficiencies in a post, some opportunity for coaching exist. But like most athletes today. They can't tell the difference between coaching or criticism. I've challenged many a would be athlete to question the amount of dedication they are willing to put forth, and not once was told to go pound sand. Many rose to the occassion, others ended up on the bench with the other also rans.


You offered no coaching that I read, all you did was question my commitment just because I admit that I have an issue lining myself up correctly which in turn causes my dog to be improperly lined up?

The only person who can offer criticism of my handling skills is CL because she was there watching me and telling me what she felt I was doing wrong. 

And yes I can tell the difference between coaching and criticism, that should be obvious....but hey what the hell do I know I haven't been playing this game long enough to have a valid opinion, guess I should just go warm the bench and watch the real handlers take home the blue ribbons.

FOM


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Actually, you can't keep Bullet. You gave him to me last year. He's mine, and should be making his way to the midwest..... actually Georgia.  But, you can take Holland..... that's between you and Dr. Ed.
> 
> 
> Long memory regards-


 
Oh, Susan that would never do!! IF Bullet were to go somewhere else, it would be back home to Maine! Those first 8 weeks were some of the happiest times of his life - and I know his baby brother and sister would love to see him again - the jury is still out on his momma!;-)

Only thinking of Bullet regards,

Andy


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

FOM said:


> I should just go warm the bench and watch the real handlers take home the blue ribbons.
> 
> FOM


Somehow I don't think this figures into your New Year's resolutions;-)!

Thanks for your post, I think a lot of us got a lot of good from it, regardless of the bus driving wannabees! thanks.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Grasshopper said:


> Interesting observation. Why do you think most can't tell the difference?
> 
> Just curious,
> Kathryn


 one word (EGO!!!!!!!!)


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

FOM said:


> You offered no coaching that I read, all you did was question my commitment just because I admit that I have an issue lining myself up correctly which in turn causes my dog to be improperly lined up?
> 
> FOM


_Your que's can be what ever you want them to be as long as you are consistent in that approach. Much of the mat work should be addressed in wagonwheel lining drills. This is where you can really work on your own mechanics as well as learning to read your dog_*.(coaching)*_I would be concerned if I had to repeatedly advise a handler that their left foot needs to be pointed in the direction they want to get their dog to go.([/I*](showing concern)* So I would agree with Ken in regard that some people have it and some people don't. If a handler is constantly being coached on rudimentary fundimentals such as the left foot issue, I would be concerned with their overall commitment to achieving progress.[B*](Again showing concern)*[/B]


It's now becoming clear why there is an issue processing basic skill developement._


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Lainee-

I wanted to thank you for posting up the issues you are working on as a handler. This evening I paid special attention to my feet and really watching my dogs body language closely. When a post makes you go out in the field and reflect on your own handling/training it is worth it's weight in gold. Kudos to you Lainee.

Oh one other thing, to those posting who have a case of *NDS*, go pound sand.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

If the naysayers had skins hanging on the wall their posts would be more relevant........just MHO


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

WOW we have some small people on here now. I remember back when Lainee was so excited about getting Bullett from Andy. I am happy for her success and dedication to making Bullett be the best he can be and realize she has to improve her handling to accomplish her goal for her dog. I cannot imagine anyone begrudging anyone being so resentful of ANYONE. Like I have said before to Lainee on here "YOU GO GIRL" Thanks for all you post ZZIt has helped me THANKS again.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> If the naysayers had skins hanging on the wall their posts would be more relevant........just MHO


You have been snipping at my heels all day
But before I go off on a tangent and respond out of proper context ... to who and about what posts on which threads are you refering.

If on the off chance this particular post was not directed at me , go to the ones where you called me out by name

.

john


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

geeeze the other thread was locked for a reason, lets move on john. most of us here are at least interested in understanding the concept, whether some feel its valid or not. why trash this thread the same way you did the other? just a little courtesy, ted started another thread to be away from your and gregs negativity and you follow. even i wouldnt have done that in my worst times.......


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Hey Lainee!! 

"Finish what you start. Dig In!" - Dave Rorem  

Best, 

Judy


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You have been snipping at my heels all day
> But before I go off on a tangent and respond out of proper context ... to who and about what posts on which threads are you refering.
> 
> If on the off chance this particular post was not directed at me , go to the ones where you called me out by name
> ...


If you have assumed to be the object of my post then you must at least have assumed that you met the parameters, if not then why would you care?

BTW I don't snip.....Happy New Year


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Ony a Padawan......all though I should have known better I figured Jedi for sure
> 
> john


 
a Jedi, Darth Sidious, was not


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## RJG (Feb 18, 2005)

I have only read the first few posts of this thread so don't have knowledge or opinions regarding later pages. But I did appreciate reading Ted's questions and Lainee's dissection of her handling on the first page. There were definitely elements in it that I identified with and will think about next time I am training and handling. Thanks, Lainee, for sharing.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

david gibson said:


> geeeze the other thread was locked for a reason, lets move on john. most of us here are at least interested in understanding the concept, whether some feel its valid or not. why trash this thread the same way you did the other? just a little courtesy, ted started another thread to be away from your and gregs negativity and you follow. even i wouldnt have done that in my worst times.......


Didn't you get anything positive out of post 116

john


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

So EdA- you have your share of success as a handler and the benefit of some truly excellent advisors-how about some insight as to what your routines are? 
Do you do drills similar to the ones that Lainee described? 
What is your focus when you are lining up the dogs? 
Any insight as to your footwork and routine at the line?

One of the old timers in this area swears that the trial is won or lost within 10 feet of the line- what is your thinking?

Hoping you will share regards

Bubba


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Do you do drills similar to the ones that Lainee described?


Just keep in mind that the drill I described was "homework" given to me by CL in order to improve my aligning of Bullet up at heel, plus to help Bullet understand he has to align up next to me just as nicely as he does for CL.

She often assigns "homework" for us....and you better do it cause she will know if you haven't!


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## jollydog (Jul 10, 2006)

Lainee,
I am right there with you on constantly working on my footwork & lining work with my dog. 
It is something I am constantly working to improve on. I have been told that it is my job to get better at helping my dog & to also know when NOT to get in her way! 
What has been hammered into my head is to demand high standards of myself & my dog because it won't matter how great a marking dog you have because without high standards they will probably NOT see all the birds in the test & I believe that has been one of the points 
Ted has been trying to make!


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

EdA said:


> If you have assumed to be the object of my post then you must at least have assumed that you met the parameters, if not then why would you care?
> 
> BTW I don't snip.....Happy New Year


TOUCHE !! ! ! ! ! ! !


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Didn't you get anything positive out of post 116
> 
> john


to be quite honest - very little. its nothing i havent heard and seen from watching and talking to pros and advanced amateurs that i know and respect. how well i have learned and apply it is an entire different matter.

it could do well as a _separate thread_ and merit discussion, but not mucking up lainees experience and discussion of what she recently learned.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

For those of you who don't believe that the handler makes a significant impact on dog performance, I would simply ask that you go somewhere else and play. 

I know that I left lots of points on the table with Ace and Zowie - and often think about how things would be if I was able to run them with what I know today.

I know that I have left points on the table with Buffy and Mootsie - and also think about what things might have been if I had started running them with what I know about handling today.

I think that one of the reasons that I enjoy training and competing is that I am constantly learning new things to help me and my dogs work better together.

I am always interested in learning new tricks for or picking up a new perspective on how to improve performance in competition. 

Lainee is excited about learning new things. Good for her.

I see her train on a regular basis and I think she is getting better. Again, good for her.

I, for one, would be interested in hearing stories from more people who have had experiences like hers.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bubba said:


> So EdA- you have your share of success as a handler and the benefit of some truly excellent advisors-how about some insight as to what your routines are?
> Do you do drills similar to the ones that Lainee described?
> What is your focus when you are lining up the dogs?
> Any insight as to your footwork and routine at the line?
> ...


First, and surprisingly, no one has made the distinction, handling in training and handling in competition are different. In training we try to mainitain a very high standard and we sometimes over emphasize dog mistakes to make corrections. In competition the goal is to get the job done in the smoothest way possible.

While I have made my share of mistakes in competition it is a far greater challenge for me, as a trainer, to be precise and to function in the best way I can for each of my 3 dogs.

I can overly influence one dog, to his and my detriment, too much fiddling and fussing makes him lose focus, this is true in both training and competition. One dog needs a decisive confident handler which I can be but still subtle enough to help him a little. The third, a littermate of the second, is so good he only needs for me to be moderately competent and point him more or less in the right direction.

In 35 years I have been yelled at by the best (if you consider Rex and Judy to be among the best), and I have been fortunate to have run some of the better dogs in field trials in my lifetime.

I have learned that I am a much better trainer today than I was 10 years ago thanks to Cherylon and Judy and my dogs hope I will continue to improve. 

I will probably never be as good as I should be (given my opportunities) or as good as I want to be.

The one thing I have learned is that the more talented the dog the less talented the handler it needs for success. Obviously very talented dog plus very talented handler equals an unbeatable combination but given the choice I prefer to have the dog and just be an average handler.....

You can't teach ability, as a handler you can't overcome the lack of it.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Andy Carlson said:


> Oh, Susan that would never do!! IF Bullet were to go somewhere else, it would be back home to Maine! Those first 8 weeks were some of the happiest times of his life - and I know his baby brother and sister would love to see him again - the jury is still out on his momma!;-)
> 
> Only thinking of Bullet regards,
> 
> Andy


Oh Andy.... I know how you feel, but Bullet's momma was glad when he left at 7-8 weeks old! She would prefer not to see him again! Except in Retriever News getting all those blue ribbons he's going to be seeing..


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

EdA said:


> First, and surprisingly, no one has made the distinction, handling in training and handling in competition are different. In training we try to mainitain a very high standard and we sometimes over emphasize dog mistakes to make corrections. In competition the goal is to get the job done in the smoothest way possible.
> 
> While I have made my share of mistakes in competition it is a far greater challenge for me, as a trainer, to be precise and to function in the best way I can for each of my 3 dogs.
> 
> ...



This would be a great new thread to start. Handlers training ablility vs Handlers trial ability

As I told Cherylon down at your place last March, I feel I am a better handler at a trial than I am in training. 

In training I've got way to many things to think about vs a trial.

Interesting last paragraph Ed. You and I are in agreement. Thanks for sharing your insight.

GO OU!!!!!


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

thankyou Ed for such an insightful post
i have always believed that with some dogs the trial is won or lost in the preceding 3 weeks ,the quality and the quantity of training and the set up selection being crucial 
other dogs win and lose in the 15 minute window before the trip to the line
a dog with great line mechanics in competition should be relatively easy for an above average competitor to make only minimal errors on the mat
more skill is needed to make good decisions on when and where to handle and to be able to "read" the setup and evaluate its dangers and take the appropriate steps to avoid them
the great handlers that i have witnessed first hand 
1 tend to be also very competent trainers
2 are great students of that particular dog and are able to recognize and compensate for the that dogs strengths and weaknesses 
3 are very good at problem minimization
4 are experts on damage control when the wheels begin to fall of

i would be very grateful if Ed, Ted and others would critique my assessment
my views are not dogmatic and i am always interested in other peoples opinions
this is for the most part a wonderful thread It is terrific that such high achieving and experienced handlers are prepared to post on here and give us the benefit of their insight


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

EdA said:


> You can't teach ability, as a handler you can't overcome the lack of it.


Isn't that basicly what Guthrie said?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Actually, Guthrie and Fallon said that you either had the "knack" for being a good handler or not.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> You can't teach ability, as a handler you can't overcome the lack of it.


But a handler can either impede or enhance a dog's performance


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I also believe that to say that someone ______ (fill in the blank), either has "it" or doesn't demeans the efforts of those people who have consistently excelled.

Judy trained with Rex for many years and devoted herself to being a better trainer and handler.
Danny trained with Judy for many years and similarly devoted himself to improvement.
Dave trained with Rex for many years and devoted himself to improvement
Billy (Eckett) trained with DL Walters and devoted himself to improvement.

These people did not reach the pinacle of accomplishment in the sport simply because of some innate talent. They have devoted years and years to the pursuit of excellence.

Vince Lombardi said to his players when he first began coaching "Gentlemen, we are going to pursue perfection. And we are never going to attain it. But, along the way, we will achieve excellence."

And I think that is what the people at the top of any endeavor do - they pursue perfection and attain excellence. 

Talent means nothing without hard work


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

As for the simplistic contention that once you have determined what bird to select, it is all a function of training and practice - and that handling has little impact on the outcome of a competition - Danny Farmer will tell you that he lost a National by tapping his thigh at the wrong time in the 10th series


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Actually, Guthrie and Fallon said that you either had the "knack" for being a good handler or not.


Main Entry: ability 
Part of Speech: noun 
Definition: natural or acquired power in a 
*Synonyms:* adroitness, bent, capability, cleverness, command, craft, deftness, expertise, expertness, finesse, flair, genius, gift, handiness, ingenuity, *knack*, know-how, mastery, mind for, particular activity adeptness, proficiency, savvy, skill, skillfulness, strength, talent, the goods, the right stuff, what it takes


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

I believe Dr Ed meant:

You can't teach ability [to the dog], as a handler you can't overcome the [dogs] lack of it.

whereas Guthrie was refering to the handlers knack or ability.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I also believe that to say that someone ______ (fill in the blank), either has "it" or doesn't demeans the efforts of those people who have consistently excelled.
> 
> Judy trained with Rex for many years and devoted herself to being a better trainer and handler.
> Danny trained with Judy for many years and similarly devoted himself to improvement.
> ...


There are many who have trained with Judy for years who have devoted themselves to improvement with well bred dogs. 

Their results, I assume, would be sub par under your standards.

Same could be said for many more who have worked under other considered greats.

I go back, you either have it or you don't. Bad can get better, but never good/great.

It's like playing a guitar...

Some could pick it up in no time and learn to be very good because they just have the "knack". Others can take lessons for years and never make a tune.

Handling is an art that takes coordination, reaction skills, and the ability to predict and/or read a dog.

Some people possess those traits, some people don't. Those who do can be good, those who don't never will be.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

greg magee said:


> Main Entry: ability
> Part of Speech: noun
> Definition: natural or acquired power in a
> *Synonyms:* adroitness, bent, capability, cleverness, command, craft, deftness, expertise, expertness, finesse, flair, genius, gift, handiness, ingenuity, *knack*, know-how, mastery, mind for, particular activity adeptness, proficiency, savvy, skill, skillfulness, strength, talent, the goods, the right stuff, what it takes


Try again

What Ed said was that a person can't teach "ability" to a dog
What Guthrie said is that a person either has the "knack" of handling a dog or doesn't

And the word "knack" means more than just "ability"

knack   
–noun
1. a special skill, talent, or aptitude: He had a knack for saying the right thing.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Handling is an art that takes coordination, reaction skills, and the ability to predict and/or read a dog.
> 
> Some people possess those traits, some people don't. Those who do can be good, those who don't never will be.


We disagree

Since you don't believe that people without the knack can get better, why don't you find another thread to post on, so that those who believe otherwise can focus on how to get better?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> We disagree
> 
> Since you don't believe that people without the knack can get better...


Didn't say that. 

Those without the "knack" can get better, just never good.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

FOM said:


> For the next time I'm up there I'm still going to work on my left foot pointing where it should, but I'm going to work on the wider base and trying to use that to get the dog into position without futzing at the line and letting them wonder where I want them to go next.
> 
> 
> > So what do you mean by a "wider base" when your talking about getting the dog into position??????


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I've read this whole thread with interest, because I hope to improve my handling skills this year (New Year's resolution). I think my skills have deteriorated over the past few years, because as a former club secretary I seemed to spend more time helping beginners than getting the help I needed myself. The other thing that I'm sure many of us deal with is that in small training groups, you're almost always alone at the line--you might be training with some fantastic people that could help you, but they're out in the field while you run your dog, and you're out throwing for them instead of watching the little things they do setting up their dogs.

Back when the real estate market was booming and I was flush with cash, I was able to train regularly with Pat Nolan and learned a lot about handling then. I was able to go there regularly on weekdays, when not many other clients were there, and run other dogs besides my own under his watchful eye. That helped so much more than I realized at the time. And it took me awhile to realize that just because you learn something, doesn't mean you can unlearn it or forget it without practice.

My rather amateur conclusion is some people have such good dog sense they learn faster than others about the little things you need to ingrain as habit on the line--like the things Lainee mentioned. The other thing that some learn easily but I personally struggle with is timing. By that I mean being able to make that decision to stop, handle, etc. a split second faster or slower, using the collar, etc. This is something a good coach at the line can help you improve, but again, some people pick it up very quickly while others struggle. And, I do think as Guthrie said, dog sense or being able to read a dog, is either there or it's not. Of course anyone can improve on it, but given two people, one with and one without, the one with is likely going to be a great handler while the other, without, will never be as good even with the same amount of dedication. I don't think it takes away from any of the very successful folks at the top of the retriever games to say that they were born with a talent--because it's a given they also had the wisdom and dedication to hone it.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

labguy said:


> So what do you mean by a "wider base" when your talking about getting the dog into position??????


In order for me to get into the habit of not moving my left foot around when setting the dog up, whether it was to show the dog the birds or to setup up for the next retrieve, I would stand with my feet next to each other.

Well this had a bad side effect of when I went to push/pull the dog by stepping up or back with my right foot I would over push and under pull. However it was pointed out to me, if I would stand with a wider base (feet wider) - pivoting to push/pull would be easier and would not be over emphasized for the push and provide the proper pull if needed.

With a wider base, when the dog is coming back in for the next bird, lets say they want to look to my right and I need to push, a simple step up with my right foot while they are coming into heel can subtly push the dog without the dog realizing it before they sit - by doing this before they sit, less futz to get them where they are looking where I want them to.

Hope that makes sense....

Lainee


----------



## pixel shooter (Mar 6, 2010)

I respectfully disagree. If you have the knack it may get you there quicker but it does not define good to great. If someone doesnt have the knack but has the desire and passion, thru time and experience, you can position yourself to achieve success. But again we talk about one side of the equation. 

I think many pro's get there faster as they do it 24-7 , most all have learned and been coached from others who excel excel in the field, as well the scheer number of talented dogs they get to handle helped build on their skill sets and competencies where some amateurs only have a few dogs to work with so immediately you are disadvantaged. The pro who has had recent or past success not unlike horse racing for example get the better quality stock to work with and that is a huge advantage. thats not to say other barns dont win races as they do, but the big barns always do better.

I'm with Ed, will take the talent with good handling skills 

.


Ken Guthrie said:


> Didn't say that.
> 
> Those without the "knack" can get better, just never good.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

On line 4 of Ken's post he does state "bad can get better".

Any athlete, any good athlete anyway knows that with hard work, dedication and effort you can become better. However, most good athletes also understand cold hard facts, unless you have some god given talent, a knack if you will, more times than not the individual will not become great. 

Do I have god given talent to become a great handler some day, I'm not sure.

Does Lainee, who knows but one should applaud her efforts to improve as a handler. Regardless if she has the "knack" that Ken mentions or not. I can not speak for Ken but I do believe he appreciates Lainee's efforts to improve.

Differing opinions are just that, different. If people differ in their opinions does that make them a bad person? I would hope that most would think not.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

FOM said:


> In order for me to get into the habit of not moving my left foot around when setting the dog up, whether it was to show the dog the birds or to setup up for the next retrieve, I would stand with my feet next to each other.
> 
> Well this had a bad side effect of when I went to push/pull the dog by stepping up or back with my right foot I would over push and under pull. However it was pointed out to me, if I would stand with a wider base (feet wider) - pivoting to push/pull would be easier and would not be over emphasized for the push and provide the proper pull if needed.
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense and thank you...............post #2 got me out working again with the dogs on better alignment/communications.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> For those of you who don't believe that the handler makes a significant impact on dog performance, I would simply ask that you go somewhere else and play.
> 
> I know that I left lots of points on the table with Ace and Zowie - and often think about how things would be if I was able to run them with what I know today.
> 
> ...


How long need a handling thread dwell on the nuances of getting from the HB to the line, foot placement, sit means sit, picking a spot in line with the mark about 5 feet from the line, and receiving the dog in such a manner that its sitting with its spine lined up with that spot, 

at last count we were at 167 posts


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2011)

john fallon said:


> How long need a handling thread dwell on the nuances of getting from the HB to the line, foot placement, sit means sit, picking a spot in line with the mark about 5 feet from the line, and receiving the dog in such a manner that its sitting with its spine lined up with that spot,
> 
> at last count we were at 167 posts


As long as it is helpful to people, my dear friend.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> How long need a handling thread dwell on the nuances of getting from the HB to the line, foot placement, sit means sit, picking a spot in line with the mark about 5 feet from the line, and receiving the dog in such a manner that its sitting with its spine lined up with that spot,
> 
> at last count we were at 167 posts


That's twice now that you've complained about how many times certain posters have posted on this topic and, now, you're complaining about the length of the thread.

What the hell do you care? Who made you the RTF posting police? If you don't like a thread, or think it's overdone or useless, don't open the damned thread.

For me, and others it sounds like, I'm greatfull that people that have already put in much time, resources and dedication to improving their skills are willing to share that knowledge with the rest of us. Afterall, isn't that what RTF is about, sharing knowledge and learning from one another?

If you don't like it, to steal Lainee's quote, POUND SAND!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> As long as it is helpful to people, my dear friend.


How long need we dwell on them for you. 'cuse for you _dear_ , you know I'll stay till the cows come home if need be;-)

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> That's twice now that you've complained about how many times certain posters have posted on this topic and, now, you're complaining about the length of the thread.
> 
> What the hell do you care? Who made you the RTF posting police? If you don't like a thread, or think it's overdone or useless, don't open the damned thread.
> 
> ...


You asked me a question and I answered, see post 116...you had no comment

john


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> How long need a handling thread dwell on the nuances of getting from the HB to the line, foot placement, sit means sit, picking a spot in line with the mark about 5 feet from the line, and receiving the dog in such a manner that its sitting with its spine lined up with that spot,
> 
> at last count we were at 167 posts





john fallon said:


> You asked me a question and I answered see post 116...you had no comment
> 
> john


And in post 161 you posted the above.

I did not comment because my "question" was sarcastic and Rhetorical. I disagree with your opinion of the subject and, therefore, have zero interest in anything else you would have to say about it.

I been thinking about it and I really have no idea why you're here at all, other than to stir the pot and cause infighting, because it's so rare that you actually contribute anything positive or worthwhile.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> And in post 161 you posted the above.
> 
> I did not comment because my "question" was sarcastic and Rhetorical. I disagree with your opinion of the subject and, therefore, have zero interest in anything else you would have to say about it.
> 
> I been thinking about it and I really have no idea why you're here at all, other than to stir the pot and cause infighting, because it's so rare that you actually contribute anything positive or worthwhile.


I know why you did not comment, now everyone knows . You have decided to climb on my back, I hope you are ready for the ride;-)


john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Johnny Thread Killer rides again

I am just going to put him, Guthrie and Magee back on ignore, and suggest those of you who actually want to talk about this subject do so, too

Don't feed the trolls

Ted


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> So EdA- you have your share of success as a handler and the benefit of some truly excellent advisors-how about some insight as to what your routines are?
> Do you do drills similar to the ones that Lainee described?
> What is your focus when you are lining up the dogs?
> Any insight as to your footwork and routine at the line?
> ...


I've always admired your handling techniques...lol

1 - Finish your beer
2 - Walk dog to the line
3 - Remind judge his fly down
4 - Good medium - "Sit, now watch em dammit"
5 - Tell the judges "let em fly..."

lol

/Paul


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> Johnny Thread Killer rides again
> 
> I am just going to put him, Guthrie and Magee back on ignore, and suggest those of you who actually want to talk about this subject do so, too
> 
> ...


There is a difference between annoying and being detrimental to the value of the forum. (And by quoting Ted, I'm not insinuating he does not know the difference.)

I just used the red triangle icon found on the left side of each post to report someone to the mods that I feel has crossed the line as to what should be allowed on the forum. I encourage any of you that feel this way to do the same.

Melanie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> How long need a handling thread dwell on the nuances of getting from the HB to the line, foot placement, sit means sit, picking a spot in line with the mark about 5 feet from the line, and receiving the dog in such a manner that its sitting with its spine lined up with that spot,
> 
> at last count we were at 167 posts


Considering the success of the dog is determined from the HB to the mat, probably can't talk about it enough. The fact is, if this goes smooth the dog has a chance. If this doesn't go well, the dog has no chance. In a trial you have one chance to get the walk from HB to the line right. Probably should put some focus on it.

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

10 years ago a training friend of mine said I overthink the test and my approach to it. I thanked him and asked him to keep talking about the latest episode of Home Improvement. I hope all the people I run against, FT and HT decide that improving your handling ability, focusing on raising your standards in training, taking your time on the line is all a waste of time. I hope that people believe what Guthrie said that practice, practice, practice won't get you anywhere and its all fate. I hope people believe that. The more people that believe that, the better I look and the better my dogs do. 

Nothing to see here, move along...

/Paul


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

i just dont understand why someone like john has to continuously pee on a thread that he doesnt agree with, why cant he just ignore it? after all, its FT stuff. if this thread is leading people to stupid things then john should be happy and know that sticking to his expertise should put him at an advantage over the lainee and ted-type folks. i dont do and dont want to do FTs, but i recognize where i can learn from the FT folks and improve myself. so i listen.....

seriously john, is your way the only way to skin a cat?

i mean_ really_.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Considering the success of the dog is determined from the HB to the mat, probably can't talk about it enough. The fact is, if this goes smooth the dog has a chance. If this doesn't go well, the dog has no chance. In a trial you have one chance to get the walk from HB to the line right. Probably should put some focus on it.
> 
> /Paul


I agree that all those things are important, but they are training issues and the handler is helpless to *legally* do anything about it in their handling of the dog at the test or trial .

john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I agree that all those things are important, but they are training issues and the handler is helpless to *legally* do anything about it in their handling of the dog at the test or trial .
> 
> john


All the more reason to work on it in training and in building a good handler/dog relationship. The more intune with the dog the handler is and the dog with the handler the better success will come. That is exactly what this thread is really about. Surprised you walked into that so blindly. Course it might explain a lot about the successes you've had.......

/Paulo


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> How long need a handling thread dwell on the nuances of getting from the HB to the line, foot placement, sit means sit, picking a spot in line with the mark about 5 feet from the line, and receiving the dog in such a manner that its sitting with its spine lined up with that spot,
> 
> at last count we were at 167 posts


John, if you know it all, good for you. Continue to point and shoot. You don't have to open the thread.

The rest of us are trying to pick up something we can use.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> I just used the red triangle icon found on the left side of each post to report someone to the mods that I feel has crossed the line as to what should be allowed on the forum. I encourage any of you that feel this way to do the same.
> 
> Melanie


Melanie, I received your Report Post form. 

There are certain people that have been given warnings regarding their posts in the past. It has been the desire to have RTF "self-moderate" as there are always negative comments when we have to step in and lock, move or delete threads. However, we do understand that there are times that ADMIN or Moderators do have to step in.

I can assure everyone that the recent comments/posts are on our "radar" and will be discussed.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

david gibson said:


> i just dont understand why someone like john has to continuously pee on a thread that he doesnt agree with, why cant he just ignore it? after all, its FT stuff. if this thread is leading people to stupid things then john should be happy and know that sticking to his expertise should put him at an advantage over the lainee and ted-type folks. i dont do and dont want to do FTs, but i recognize where i can learn from the FT folks and improve myself. so i listen.....
> 
> seriously john, is your way the only way to skin a cat?
> 
> i mean_ really_.


David, Isn't that what a forum is about? Where opposing views are dedated 

Part of the premise proffered by the other side is that the handlers intervention should be used to overcome shortcomings in the dogs performance ie. marking, training , or other abilities.

I do not think so, and will continue to say so.

john

john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> David, Isn't that what a forum is about? Where opposing views are dedated
> 
> Part of the premise proffered by the other side is that the handlers intervention should be used to overcome shortcomings in the dogs performance ie. marking, training , or other abilities.
> 
> ...


The greatest dogs to ever run all had a handler.

/Paul


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

John,

What can you offer Lainee and/or other who are looking for help with alignment on the mat issues?

Please offer up some ideas on how to become better as a handler or what you might see as the ins and outs of the job. 

We are all ears, please throw some positives out here for us to read and debate.

Thanks in advance for your input.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am going to try a third time to have a constructive thread on handling. I suggest that those of you who want to explore that venue, put John Fallon and Greg Magee on your ignore list, so we can have a constructive discussion

Ted


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> John,
> 
> What can you offer Lainee and/or other who are looking for help with alignment on the mat issues?
> 
> ...


Wade, The line manners alignment issue was adequately covered by Lainee herself in post # 1 of this thread and that is my point

Now we know what Lainees problems are and we know what she is doing to correct them thus far , (but we have known that since early in the thread) , and with the help of CR she she seem to be right on track, but until she has another lesson, there is nothing NEW to learn there. Or, lets have Laniee throw another (new) issue out and we'll see what kind of advice she gets , in this I will gladly have some input.

The handlers job as EdA said, is two fold, the first being being a trainer/handler, the second being a competitor/handler.

In my opinion, shortcomings in the first cannot be made up for in the second.

If one wants to handle a dog well the best way to *start* is to do it often.
Most can not farm their dogs out to a PRO , pick them up on Sat and run them well... But you already know this..........


john


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

john fallon said:


> If one wants to handle a dog well the best way to *start* is to do it often.
> Most can not farm their dogs out to a PRO , pick them up on Sat and run them well... But you already know this..........
> 
> 
> john


I believe Statistics would disprove what you wrote. I know in the regions I run in the majority of Ams are in fact won by people who "farm their dogs out to a PRO, and then run them on the weekend. I'll bet if you check on EE that is the case across the country.

I'm just a working joe who trains alone 90% of the time when I find the time, whose dogs have never been with a pro, nor do I train with a pro group, or have the opportunity to train with a pro training mentor like Cherylon. I think this thread is very useful for people in my shoes, as it brings up issues we may have overlooked or slighted in our myopic training world.

You can have the best marking dog in the world, but he can't mark what he doesn't see. I have been dropped more than once because my dog came to the line and saw 3 gun stations, but wouldn't make that small incremental push or pull to see the long gun that is only a couple of degrees left or right and 150 yds deep of a shorter enticing[possible flyer] station. Arguing about whether or not that was a fair test design is really good salve to the ego's of those handlers not back to the second series However it is not going to increase my ability to handle the reality of dealing with this type of setup. Something I may learn to use in this thread might make a difference.

You seem to have an issue with Ted. I don't know if it is personal, or Maybe you think it is unfair to compete against pro trained dogs in the Amateur Stake. I will agree that it makes it tougher. However, that is what makes it worthwhile I wouldn't be competing there if it weren't against the best, that will make success all the sweeter.
I'm very appreciative of Lainee, Ted, and others for sharing what they have learned in this thread. Hopefully it will help me and my dogs. You claim that anything worthwhile in this thread was to be garnered in the first few posts. I disagree and have found things of interest throughout. When I feel it has run its course I will then bypass it.

By the way, you have been keeping a tally of Ted's posts in this thread, I'd be interested in knowing who has the 2nd most amount of posts


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Part of the premise proffered by the other side is that the handlers intervention should be used to overcome shortcomings in the dogs performance ie. marking, training , or other abilities.


I don't recall saying that I was trying to improve my handling skills to overcome shortcomings in my dog's performance?

I did say I had a bad habit of lining them up incorrectly. Hence why it was my top lesson learned. 

In the three days I spent with CL I had two light bulb moments with my handling skills - you know when things just kind of click and you go....oh yeah...

The first was when we were running a very tight triple, we had already picked up the go bird which was a flier to the right, then the next bird to pick up as the left hand bird....I felt like I had Bullet lined up to the left slightly, but CL said no, I was way right? WTH? Well she grabbed Bullet's collar to ensure he wouldn't move and had me step back from the mat and look to see where he was pointing. That was a light bulb moment for me. I had lined him up so he was just left of the flier gunner and way left of the long bird....now had I just said "okay" and sent him would that of been fair to him? The shortcoming was not on him, it was on me....I can promise you CL in training puts a lot of ownership of marking on the dog, but when the handler screws up like I was about to do, she will get on you and not the dog.

Don't try and twist this thread into something it is not....it is not about trying to cover up a dog's shortcomings via handler intervention, it is about trying to becoming a better handler or at least trying to be one and some of the growing pains of that experience.

Lainee


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Any improvement is.....better than chocolate! 

To the non believers they deserve this:























































































































.(nothing)


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> I know why you did not comment, now everyone knows . You have decided to climb on my back, I hope you are ready for the ride;-)
> 
> 
> john


Really John? Because I thought I was obvious enough that most recognized the sarcasm right off the bat given the context.

And, whatever it is you mean by "I hope you are ready for the ride", I am reminded of a quote; 

"If it's got hair, I can ride it. If it's got a beat, I can dance to it."


Mess with the bull you get the horns regards,


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Really John? Because I thought I was obvious enough that most recognized the sarcasm right off the bat given the context.
> 
> And, whatever it is you mean by "I hope you are ready for the ride", I am reminded of a quote;
> 
> ...




In the bull ring I would never aspire to be the bull.

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> I don't recall saying that I was trying to improve my handling skills to overcome shortcomings in my dog's performance?
> 
> I did say I had a bad habit of lining them up incorrectly. Hence why it was my top lesson learned.
> 
> ...


Lainee, perhaps you missed this

john



> The line manners alignment issue was adequately covered by Lainee herself in post # 1 of this thread and that is my point
> 
> Now we know what Lainees problems are and we know what she is doing to correct them thus far , (but we have known that since early in the thread) , and with the help of CR she she seem to be right on track, but until she has another lesson, there is nothing NEW to learn there. Or, lets have Laniee throw another (new) issue out and we'll see what kind of advice she gets , in this I will gladly have some input.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

No John, I didn't miss your attempt to put a stop to another thread in which several RTFers have gleamed useful information. I just don't get what your purpose is in trying to tell everyone else they should not continue with a conversation which seems of interest to them....

FOM


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Don't feed the TROLLS

Use the ignore button

It is a WONDERFUL tool

Ted


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ted,

Unfortunately as a Moderator I can't really do that.....nor can I really say what I want to at times cause I would have to ban myself! 

FOM


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, do your best to ignore him

He loves attention, even if it is NEGATIVE


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> No John, I didn't miss your attempt to put a stop to another thread in which several RTFers have gleamed useful information. I just don't get what your purpose is in trying to tell everyone else they should not continue with a conversation which seems of interest to them....
> 
> FOM


I was telling no one to stop the conversation, I was just saying it should be expanded as has now been done in the latest thread.

john


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Wade said:


> On line 4 of Ken's post he does state "bad can get better".
> 
> Any athlete, any good athlete anyway knows that with hard work, dedication and effort you can become better. However, most good athletes also understand cold hard facts, unless you have some god given talent, a knack if you will, more times than not the individual will not become great.
> 
> ...


Very well said Wade,


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Part of the premise proffered by the other side is that the handlers intervention should be used to overcome shortcomings in the dogs performance ie. marking, training , or other abilities.
> 
> I do not think so, and will continue to say so.
> 
> ...


To validate Johns opinion, although I do believe it is the exception, not the rule. I once saw a 9 year old girl win the qual and a derby. Pointing & shooting regards


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Perhaps the point should be made that while a handler can only do so much to assist the dog, they can certainly do an awful lot to inhibit the dog. The goal is to reduce the detracting habits and increase the positive ones. Don't be the weak link on the team

/Paul


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> You seem to have an issue with Ted. I don't know if it is personal, or Maybe you think it is unfair to compete against pro trained dogs in the Amateur Stake


I think this is the bottom line and John is there to stir the pot in any way he can on a thread that Ted has started or is posting. It absolutely galls him that Ted is successful in AA with the manner his dogs are trained and how he handles them.
This is probably one of the more enlightening threads we have had in a long time and as Marc says, many of the amateurs that aren't able to train with a teaching trainer are looking at their handling through a different eye while John has his own obnoxious agenda. Point and shoot-go to HT where many believe in letting the dog choose the birds. To be successful in AA not only must you be a team, but you as the handler are there to see your dog has the best shot to see and retrieve all the birds to the best of his ability.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I know that there have been times where I screwed my dog up with bad handling, and there have been times when my dog bailed me out despite bad handling. I can't think of any situation off the top of my head where I saved my dog's performance through great handling. So there is more to be lost through poor handling than can be gained with good handling.

Some lessons I have learned is that learning to read your dog is a must, you need to know when it is better to stick with the plan or call an "audible" on line, consistancy and cadence are everything, and handlers can get better at all these things through practice and coaching.

This is just my opinion, so of course you are free to disagree.

John

edit; I just saw Paul's post, didn't mean to be redundant.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John, Paul

I agree with the premise that a bad handler or a bad handling decision can have a significant negative impact on dog performance.

I disagree with the premise that a good handler or a good handling decision cannot have a significant positive impact on dog performance.

I have done both - the former far more frequently than the latter. 

Ted


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Did someone loose a weiner again?  Something I heard recently made me do this! Otherwise the thread is good in the long form as long as it remains on topic!  I'll shut up now!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> John, Paul
> 
> I agree with the premise that a bad handler or a bad handling decision can have a significant negative impact on dog performance.
> 
> ...


Ted, I think we are saying the same thing. Reading your dog and knowing when to trust him as he returns to the line and lines himself up, ears up and focused on a different bird than the one I was planning on selecting, or sticking to my plan by pulling him off that bird and selecting the check down. If you choose correctly the dog will pin that bird and the last key bird, choose wrong and he may fail to get both. I approach a test with a plan in mind, but as my dogs have become more talented, I find myself trusting them more, but that sometimes backfires, they are just dogs afterall.

John


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Byron,

Thank you for the laugh....the good Lord knows I need one today!

FOM


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Ted, I think we are saying the same thing. Reading your dog and knowing when to trust him as he returns to the line and lines himself up, ears up and focused on a different bird than the one I was planning on selecting, or sticking to my plan by pulling him off that bird and selecting the check down. If you choose correctly the dog will pin that bird and the last key bird, choose wrong and he may fail to get both. I approach a test with a plan in mind, but as my dogs have become more talented, I find myself trusting them more, but that sometimes backfires, they are just dogs afterall.
> 
> John


Rorem explained this scenario to me very precisely. There are some birds that a dog just thinks of as filet (usually the flyer)... others as pot roast, and then hamburger. I was quite used to get burned by my dog because he was selecting the birds and would screw it up if I tried to send him differently. Ideally, I would have a dog disciplined enough to go where I point him, but I don't. Still working on it. He likes to pick his birds. After the flyer, long is his favorite. It seemed to have become a routine: flyer, long bird - I act mad, and he goes it and picks up his short (the one that it looks like he hasn't even watched). No problem. Judges console me after the long bird pick up, but I'm not really worried, because I've been through it before. In my head, I'm thinking "Here we go again." I "talk him into" the short - which is the one he intended on getting last anyway.

My plan is always to attempt the short bird (secondary selection), but my fall back is the dog's cue. I can still hear my OLD mentor from my tracking days (had a 2 digit judge's number in obedience) in his gavely old voice saying "READ YOUR DOG, DAMMIT!, READ YOUR DOG!). 

My *attainment* (Rorem's phrase) came at the last trial of the year..... I actually lined the Naughty Dog up for the short bird (secondary selection) and he took it without hesitation. 

Have a plan, but the *knack *(Guthrie's phrase) is to be able to change the plan enroute. 

I'm not suggesting I'm a good handler, only pointing out my learning curve, and where it's been heading. As a new handler, like Lainee, with my first FT dog being Honor, I'm definitely still learning.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FOM said:


> So things I learned about the mat:
> I need to have my left foot properly aligned - to do this I found it useful to stand back behind the mat and draw a line from the gun station to the mat and make sure I used the grids on the mat to help me. For some reason I struggle with getting my foot lined up.
> .


with due apologies for degradation of this topic..........this has been palying in my head since I first read Lainee's struggle with her footwork.....

it helps to know the music so turn up your internal speaker....;-)

You put your right foot in,
You put your right foot out;
You put your right foot in,
And you shake it all about.
You do the Hokey-Pokey,
And you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about!

You put your left foot in,
You put your left foot out;
You put your left foot in,
And you shake it all about.
You do the Hokey-Pokey,
And you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about!


OK, sorry but I had to if for no other reason than to purge the Hokey Pokey from my internal playlist


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> with due apologies for degradation of this topic..........this has been palying in my head since I first read Lainee's struggle with her footwork.....
> 
> it helps to know the music so turn up your internal speaker....;-)
> 
> ...




Almost posted the same thing yesterday.

But I remembered Ted had me on ignore so he wouldn't hear it.:razz:

Me thinks that Rorem and lots of other pro's have a "knack" for marketing.

A whole thread dedicated to foot positioning in regards to the success of their dogs.

What do they say on NFL on Fox???

"COME ON MAAAAAAAAN!"


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Almost posted the same thing yesterday.
> 
> But I remembered Ted had me on ignore so he wouldn't hear it.:razz:
> 
> ...


Catching a baseball is something any fat kid from the neighborhood can do. 

Just saying...

/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Catching a baseball is something any fat kid from the neighborhood can do.
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> /Paul


True...

But only a few have enough "knack" to get paid for it over a 6 year span.

Just saying...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> True...
> 
> But only a few have enough "knack" to get paid for it over a 6 year span.
> 
> Just saying...


Glad we understand marketing then.

/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Glad we understand marketing then.
> 
> /Paul


Always have...

Got a piece of paper on the wall that says I do at least. ;-)

Nick Knack regards,


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> with due apologies for degradation of this topic..........this has been palying in my head since I first read Lainee's struggle with her footwork.....
> 
> it helps to know the music so turn up your internal speaker....;-)
> 
> ...


I can just hear the uproar had I said it

john


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

There is something to be said for presentation. HPW


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

EdA said:


> You do the Hokey-Pokey,
> And you turn yourself around.
> That's what it's all about!


Hey Ed, 

I feel like I don't need to wish you a Happy New Year because you're already having one!

But the truth be known if we can't have a little poke at ourselves and do some navel-gazing while we try and improve, then we're a lost cause!!

Like I'm sure you heard Rex say, *Don't get Paralysis form Analysis!!*

Since he was a tremendously analytical type of guy, I presume he was warning about the paralysis rather than the analysis.

*Perhaps we should say "put your best foot forward while online!"*


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

john fallon said:


> I can just hear the uproar had I said it
> 
> john


It's also funny John to watch Theodore fawn over something posted by a mentor so to speak, when he already disparaged some one else for saying something similar.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Almost posted the same thing yesterday.
> 
> But I remembered Ted had me on ignore so he wouldn't hear it.:razz:
> 
> ...


Keyshawn Johnson started that on ESPN


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

greg magee said:


> It's also funny John to watch Theodore fawn over something posted by a mentor so to speak, when he already disparaged some one else for saying something similar.


I hear you


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Hey Ed,
> 
> I feel like I don't need to wish you a Happy New Year because you're already having one!
> 
> ...


One should never take life too seriously, advancing age makes it more imperative to enjoy and make the best of every day with at least a good sense of humor.

It is interesting that you have discovered horses, a much deeper money pit than dogs. I have been there twice, once as a teenager when Dad picked up the tab and then as an adult when I helped support the National Cutting Horse Association. 

Cheers and Happy New Year, eh?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Like I'm sure you heard Rex say, *Don't get Paralysis form Analysis!!*
> 
> Since he was a tremendously analytical type of guy, I presume he was warning about the paralysis rather than the analysis
> ]


Rex was very quotable, unfortunately many will be lost with time. Rex had a client who was a very successful psychiatrist who over the years had several good dogs.

Rex's definition of a psychiatrist was "someone who needs a psychiatrist".

He was very insightful into both dog and human behavior!


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

john fallon said:


> I hear you


So would that mean that some one would let personality conflicts influence their ability(read knack) to concede that something of substance was posted?


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

I haven't been on here in awhile. Is good to see a thread that is actually written for handling and training...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

DEDEYE said:


> I haven't been on here in awhile. Is good to see a thread that is actually written for handling and training...


 
We have had 4 nice ones in a row and only 1 of them is locked!! 
Nice to see you.


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