# Training needed to pass a CPR APLA test



## jax (May 18, 2010)

I am just curious what the the level of training would be needed to
pass a cpr apla level test. I am looking at possibly buying a 1.5 yo female lab that has earned
a cpr title. How does it compare to a started title in hrc and a junior hunt title in akc for those who have run multiple tests. Thanks.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Not much at all. I could train Pals Weezie to pass a cpl test. The dog really needs zero natural ability for a cpl. You're just paying money for a fairy tale. They only point because they are scared of the birds.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

uh oh.....


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## PennyRetrievers (Mar 29, 2013)

Take the forthcoming comments with a grain of salt. 90% of the people who gripe about pointing labs have neither trained one, nor owned one, and probably never hunted behind one.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Especially guys who listen to 20+ pointers barking half the night lol. Oh, that's me. Hahaa


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## Rhenee Fadling (May 23, 2008)

To see what's required for a CPR pass, go to the American Pointing Labrador Assoc. website and review the CPR test requirements. I can't speak of AKC, but CPR in APLA and SHR in HRC, the tests are quite different, although both tests test for natural ability of the dogs, with the obvious requirement in APLA that the dog points a predetermined number of birds in the upland field. For a dog to be successful in an APLA CPR test, the dog should have quite a bit of upland bird exposure, basic water skills and and a good basics program should be on board.

A CPR is a beginning title, it's a required test in APLA before moving up to higher levels, unlike HRC where you can go to a Finished level to start w/. But more than that what skills does the dog you want/need to have for the hunting/games you do?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Shot birds at 2 events, first time I worked the CPR, it was a water downed version of a JH very comparible to a HRC Started test not really a marking test but a " will the dog retrieve test" second time was at the master level again more like a senior hunt test...

I would compare a CPR to a HRC started dog in the retrieving game..

Wasn't impressed at either event, not that the dogs couldn't do the work but that they weren't being tested to the level that I was expecting to see..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I've seen pictures of Weezie retrieving on FB.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Since nobody has given you an answer and only opinions here you go.

I enjoy all venues of dog sports and games. Overall the APLA organization is one of the most fun venues I have tested dogs in. Great people who love dogs and are supportive. You just cant beat duck hunting and pheasant hunting in the same day.

From the APLA website here is the full version for Certification level tests.
Certification

PURPOSE 

The purpose of APLA’s Certified Pointing Retriever Test (CPR) is to evaluate a combination of basic natural abilities and basic trained behaviors in the upland field and waterfowl retrieves. Natural abilities and trained behaviors are equally important components of a good hunting companion. To score well in this test the dog must respond to basic obedience commands and have had enough exposure to hunting upland birds and water retrieves to show beginning proficiency in each. There is no minimum age for dogs running this test. The test will have two working parts: Upland Work and Water Retrieves. Testing will be scored on a noncompetitive basis on a zero to five (O to 5) scale in one half (1/2) point increments in each of seven (7) categories, for a maximum score of 35 points. Any dog scoring a one and one-half (1.5) or lower in any category of testing will fail immediately and will not be allowed to continue the test. The seven scoring categories are: NOSE, COOPERATION, DESIRE, SEARCH, POINT, LAND RETRIEVES, and WATER RETRIEVES. Nose, Cooperation, Desire, and Search will be evaluated throughout all parts of the test. Point will be evaluated in the Upland Field. A minimum total score of 21 of the 35 possible points is required in order to pass the test. A dog that successfully passes the test will be given the title of Certified Pointing Retriever (CPR). 

GENERAL OVERVIEW: 

UPLAND 

The Upland Field will consist of approximately 3 to 5 acres of light to medium cover (as available). The premium for the test will identify what game birds will be available for the upland work(chukar and/or pheasant). (Good quality quail may be used only when suitable chukar or pheasant are not available.) When returning the premium, handlers will select what combination of three (3) of the available birds they will use for the test. These three birds will be placed at random throughout the Upland Field. The Handler must indicate to the judge whether he himself wants to put up the birds, wants the gunner to put up the birds, or wants to send in the dog to flush the birds after they are pointed. He must also indicate whether he wants any birds shot that the dog puts up without having pointed. The handler and dog must hunt the entire field efficiently searching for three birds. The team will be allowed to remain on the Upland Field for a maximum of 15 minutes. (The time can be shortened by the judges only if the dog has found three birds or if, in the judges’ opinion, because of heat or other factors, continuing the hunt would be dangerous for the dog.) The field party will consist of the handler and dog, two (2) judges, a designated gunner, and at most one apprentice judge. Spectators may be present in a designated area. With the consent of the handler, other designated individuals may accompany the field party, such as a photographer or one other "guest". Should those individuals "bump" a bird in the field or cause a dog to fail to hold a point it is considered the responsibility of the handler and the entry will not be considered for any type of protest or re-run. Guests in the field party may not give any type of verbal communication, directive, or support to the handler, and are required to remain in the holding area while birds are being planted. Guests providing the handler guidance or help risk the dog and handler being disqualified. 

WATER 

The Water test will use open water (as available), providing retrieves of approximately 50 yards or less. Upon the handler signaling readiness to the judges, a duck call will sound and a dead duck will be thrown from a concealed location simultaneously with a gunshot. The throw will be into the water (with a splash) in a location that encourages both efficient water entries and water returns. This will be repeated in the same manner for a second retrieve. 

THE SEVEN SCORING CATEGORIES 

NOSE 

Effective use of the nose across all bird contacts will be used to determine the overall quality of the nose. Scenting conditions (including direction, shifting, or absence of wind) will be taken into consideration by the judges. 

COOPERATION 

In all situations, the dog should respond to commands or signals given by the handler. In the Upland Field, the handler will determine the overall pattern of the search, but a well-trained dog will need little assistance in hunting within this general pattern. Scores will be heavily downgraded for a dog that runs with disregard to the handler. 

DESIRE 

The dog must demonstrate a desire to hunt, retrieve, and please its handler. Desire can be evaluated through the enthusiasm, self-motivation and body language displayed by the dog as it performs its work. Scores will be downgraded for a dog that requires constant verbal encouragement to hunt or retrieve or for a dog that seems intimidated by the handler. 

SEARCH 

In the Upland Field, the handler must determine the overall pattern of the search with the clear intent to find three birds. Within this overall pattern, the dog should demonstrate purpose and pattern while using its sense of smell, showing a natural ability to locate birds on its own. On all retrieves, the dog should go quickly to the area of the fall, and search efficiently within the area of the fall. Aimless running, walking, or swimming will not be confused with searching either in the Upland Field or during Water Retrieves. 

POINT 

Judges are to allow for all styles of point. To establish point the dog must become motionless in a standing position (movement of the head or tail is allowed). The dog must clearly establish point on its own prior to any type of command or signal given by the handler. The dog must remain on point for a minimum of five (5) seconds. Only after the judge has started the five second count may the handler give a quiet, non-intimidating, steadying command. The dog may reposition itself while on point, but upon re-establishing point, a new five (5) second count will begin. Repositioning which results in a staunch point indicating that the dog has confidence in bird location will not lower scores. A bird must be produced from the point for the point to be scored. Creeping on point or willful flushing of birds, unless commanded to flush, will result in a lower pointing score. Birds that are determined by the judges to be running that are flushed within gun range will not lower the dogs pointing score. The dog should search, locate and point as many of the birds as possible in the Upland Course.

LAND RETRIEVES 

Scoring in this category will reflect work performed in the Upland Field. Retrieves should be efficient. A scoreable retrieve is one that is delivered to within one reasonable step of the handler, but a higher score will be given to dogs delivering to hand. The dog should mark the fall; however, the handler may assist the dog with hand or whistle signals. The handler may reposition himself a short distance, but only enough to get a reasonable view of the flight or fall of the birds or to keep his dog in view. On occasions when the gunner fails to down a successfully pointed bird, a retrieve will be simulated by firing the gun and throwing a dead bird. The dog must retrieve all cleanly killed game and all birds from simulated retrieves that it should see fall within the boundaries of the Upland Field. 

All retrieved birds will be examined for evidence of hard mouth. Should a dog exhibit hard mouth, it will receive a zero (0) in Retrieve. Evidence of crushed bone structure, canine tooth penetration or audible crunching while the dog has a bird in its mouth are sufficient to result in a 0 score in Retrieve. 

WATER RETRIEVES 

Efficient and willing swims to and back with the duck should be completed by the dog. Judges are looking for retrieving desire and swimming abilities as well as the efficiency of a reasonably direct line. Bank running and water entry other than in a reasonably direct line from the handler will severely downgrade the dog's score. The dog is required to complete two (2) single marked water retrieves, delivering to within one reasonable step (on dry land) of the handler. (For top scores, delivery to hand is required.) Judges will signal the handler to send the dog, shortly after the duck hits the water. The handler may quietly speak to his dog in a non-intimidating fashion while waiting for the judge to signal him to make the retrieve. The dog may not leave the handler's side until this signal is given. For the purpose of the Certified Water Retrieves only, the dog may be restrained by a slip lead until the judge’s signal is given. The handler is allowed two attempts to send the dog for each retrieve, and the handler may not take more than one reasonable step from his initial position. 

All retrieved birds will be examined for evidence of hard mouth. Should a dog exhibit hard mouth, it will receive a zero (0) in Water. Evidence of crushed bone structure, canine tooth penetration or audible crunching while the dog has a bird in its mouth are sufficient to result in a 0 score in water retrieves. 

Any questions let me know.

M


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Pass ONE test and a title??


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Not much at all. I could train Pals Weezie to pass a cpl test. The dog really needs zero natural ability for a cpl. You're just paying money for a fairy tale. They only point because they are scared of the birds.


1. I wish all dogs with no natural ability could be trained so easily to pass a test.
2. I hunt behind now 3 of those "fairy tales". They live for it and can do any type of hunting regardless of demands, cover or terrain etc. (except extreme heat)
3. My youngest dog that is so called scared of birds has run down a couple of greater Canadas and a few ducks on way to hunting location a number of times. Even a yearling deer before I called her off. Could it be prey drive? Probably not being scared and pointing birds. They either point or they dont and flush. 

As with purchasing any dog or puppy I would look at parents and pedigree and if opportunity is available see the parents in action as well as the dog. Running pointing labs in the APLA hunt tests or any for that manner takes time, trainability and natural abiltiy as anything in any aspect of life does. I have yet to see any testing organization just passing out ribbons to untrained dogs and handlers. Somebody has put some time and effort into the dog you are lookiing at. Less time if the dog has natural ability of course


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> Pass ONE test and a title??


Yes, Certified and Advanced up to Master 1 pass and title. 2 Master passes make a Grand Master Pointing Retriever. Each Master pass counts as .5 up to 9 master qualifying scores to make a 4XGMPR.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Micah Duffy said:


> Yes, Certified and Advanced up to Master 1 pass and title. 2 Master passes make a Grand Master Pointing Retriever. Each Master pass counts as .5 up to 9 master qualifying scores to make a 4XGMPR.


Alright then, very stringent qualifications...

Why Haven't the Golden and Chessie folks cashed in on this???

I have nothing against the pointing thing hunted behind some nice labs that did ( all from FT breedings) but test them to a high standard on MARKING, and blind work, that master test I shot for was silly, there were a couple of those 4xGMPR there being run by some lady that looked to be Senior level dogs at best, sorry but thats how I seen it..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Some of the most bred pl lines started with a show lab.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Some of the most bred pl lines started with a show lab.


Some "show" lines sure, just like any breed of dog of any venue anywhere in the world. "Most are very well bred from Field Trial lines as a start. I have a Lean Mac granddaughter that was Sired from a current FC Watermarks Texas Welcome. I have only seen Howdy run on video but I heard both him and Lean Mac where quite "Showy" in the field. I also have a FC Jazztime sired dog that came from and FC from Trieven Lines. She is not quite as "showy" but crazy "flashy"


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> Alright then, very stringent qualifications...
> 
> Why Haven't the Golden and Chessie folks cashed in on this???
> 
> I have nothing against the pointing thing hunted behind some nice labs that did ( all from FT breedings) but test them to a high standard on MARKING, and blind work, that master test I shot for was silly, there were a couple of those 4xGMPR there being run by some lady that looked to be Senior level dogs at best, sorry but thats how I seen it..


I agree, some tests are easier than others. I have run seniors that challenged dogs ready to jump to Master and some that my Junior dog would have killed. Each test is different based on what the judges want to see. I have noticed entry amounts influence all the venues as well. Lots of dogs are really hard tests to drop dogs or easy to speed them through. If somebody was in fact running a 4xGMPR then it was only for fun. Thats the highest level that can be attained and couldnt be running an official test. As far as a really high standard of Marking a lot of PL handlers run Multiple venues in HT or FTs as well. I have a GMPR that I am excited to run in our first FT next month hopefully.


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## Richard McCullough (Sep 22, 2009)

Jax, Sent you a PM


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

Retrieving wise, i would equate the PL test to HRC levels of beginning, intermediate and advanced. The bird work is the difference and the point of it, no pun intended. You can upland hunt with a pointing breed and have retrieving be the secondary trait. You can upland hunt with a retriever and have a flusher or a pointer but the retrieve will be superior to a pointing breed. Having watched english pointers from one day to a retried FC, I trust that i know natural point when i see it. Most labs do not have a strong natural point but have some..in my view, the intent of APLA is to identify that trait for those that want the versatile dog. My NFC sired bitch has some natural point and strong natural tendency to hold when she does, always has since she was 10 weeks old. My GMPR MH QAA sired pup has a strong natural point, points every few minutes at something when you watch her run around the yard. We shot 3-5 covies a day over her in TX when she was 6 mos old and i had not even whoa broke her yet (you do that to bird dogs too). She broke and went with the birds when we flushed but she held for me to flus, as puppies do, as pointer puppies do too. Pretty nice added feature for a pup making 150 yard marks on ducks on matagorda bay that morning. Both retrieving and point are a very strong natural trait in her. I dont recall the pro that was my guest complaining about the dog being versatile and good at both type of hunts. He seemed to have a darn good time, come to think of it... That pup is on track to run derbies this winter and hopefully take her to MH and Q next spring. I may run her in the last 2 master events in the south late this year. I am happy to have her do both.

There are always naysayers.....as a 35 yr bird dog trainer and a 20 yr retriever trainer i can say this, you can force retrieve and yest you can force point. But, it is blatantly obvious to me when a dog is only retrieving because it is forced to do so and only standing at point because it was forced to do so. I have seen plenty of tucked tail, slow and defeated dogs run a steady as you go, clean master test. It is difficult to get a dog to quarter and hunt with no desire, only because it is forced, so a dog with a MPR has proven the ability to locate and point multiple birds.

CPR is like JH or SR, it shows the dog demonstrated the ability to do basic work....


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Micah Duffy said:


> Some "show" lines sure, just like any breed of dog of any venue anywhere in the world. "Most are very well bred from Field Trial lines as a start. I have a Lean Mac granddaughter that was Sired from a current FC Watermarks Texas Welcome. I have only seen Howdy run on video but I heard both him and Lean Mac where quite "Showy" in the field. I also have a FC Jazztime sired dog that came from and FC from Trieven Lines. She is not quite as "showy" but crazy "flashy"


Lean Mac never had a show CH....lol

basically, find three birds, "point" for 5 seconds. Repositioning and creeping is allowed. (so, while the dog is repositioning and creeping that still counts as part of the 5 seconds) In the retrieves, the DO NOT need to be to hand. Only within a reasonable "step" of the handler. 

To consider buying a pup with a heftier price tag because it has a "CPL", buyer beware. This test is stuff all pointer trainers expect out of four/five month old puppies. Definitely not a 1.5 year old dog you might be considering purchasing. I know of a 12 month old pup who's been at Gonia's for 5 months for sale. He'd likely take less than $1,000 to the right home. Dog is FF'd, started on pile and T. At Gonia's. Dog marks well but, won't be an Open competitor. I'd buy those credentials over a "CPL" 1.5 year old dog any day. 

Unless your hunting quail, sharptail and chukar, I'd rather skip a staunch pointing dog. My Chessie out hunted a string of MH and two FC pointers in South Dakota. She couldn't last as long but found WAY more birds in the high grassland, millet and cattails.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

The CPR title requires one test pass where the dog points and then water retrieves to the HRC SHR standard. The big difference is if your dog delivers to hand then running Junior is possible. IN AKC Junior they must retrieve 2 land and 2 water marks and deliver to hand without you touching your dog. IF the dog is a good marker then the SHR and Junior are possible. My CPR'ed dog smoked 2 Started HRC tests around 1 year old and titled at 14 months. She will be running APR and Senior (doubles and blind work) soon, by September.


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Lean Mac never had a show CH....lol
> 
> basically, find three birds, "point" for 5 seconds. Repositioning and creeping is allowed. (so, while the dog is repositioning and creeping that still counts as part of the 5 seconds) .....
> 
> Unless your hunting quail, sharptail and chukar, I'd rather skip a staunch pointing dog. My Chessie out hunted a string of MH and two FC pointers in South Dakota. She couldn't last as long but found WAY more birds in the high grassland, millet and cattails.


The first statement is simply not the case. From the rule book below -it clearly refutes that statement as does what i have seen at test. 
"The dog must clearly establish point on its own prior to any type of command or signal given by the handler. The dog must remain on point for a minimum of five (5) seconds. Only after the judge has started the five second count may the handler give a quiet, non-intimidating, steadying command. The dog may reposition itself while on point, but upon re-establishing point, a new five (5) second count will begin. "

The second statement is the age old argument for flusher vs. steady pointing dog. If you hunt anywhere that is not saturated with birds, a flushing dog can be quite frustrating to hunt with, having what few birds you locate fly out front of you on the edge or range and little time to get ready to shoot. As far as SD and western ND, we haul 6 dogs out there every year and i believe they are mostly there to retrieve downed birds. We could shoot a limit in 2 hours for 16 prople with or without a dog, so i cant say you have to have a PL to be successful if i cant say you need a dog at all..... Your dog finding more birds should not be a function of whether she points or flushes, rather her nose, intelligence and desire to "reach out for objectives". She should find just as many if she waited on you to get there....there are steady "birdy" dogs and unsteady "birdy" dogs it is not a reflection on point or flush.

Our Chessie points and holds birds and i have never even told her the command "whoa", she tripod leg points naturally, so do some of her pups. But they are always hens for some reason....she lacks stamina for an extended hunt but does well on clean up, or one or two man walk up a grass strip or river bottom.

I do agree that i do not see CPR as a standard for paying a premium, nor do i feel that JH or SR is either.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

Happy you should talk about things you know. By the way your doing a nice job in the Field Trials keep it up.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Before paying a premium for a CPR dog make sure you research the parents. Just like you would any other breeding. Also, I will admit that the retrieving aspect of the APLA tests are not always at the level of the other venues. Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. BUT, I would argue what makes the Master level of the APLA difficult is that you do the retrieving tasks(land and water) where you need all the control and then later in the same day you turn the dog loose and tell it to be independent and find birds for you. It's a switch that can throw a dog off and go down in flames.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

deadriver said:


> ... Having watched english pointers from one day to a retried FC, I trust that i know natural point when i see it.
> ...


So, which, if any, of the dogs in these pictures are actually displaying a natural point?


2. 









3.









4.









5.











7.









8.









9. The dog of my avatar?

IME APLA titles do not mean squat vis-a-vis natural pointing ability. I've had three Labs that pointed, two of which I developed to steady to wing, shot and fall level. They all came from untitled heritage. I have one now from a PL breeder with a pedigree chock full of APLA titled animals, GMPRs, HOF dogs, CPR back several generations on the bottom; sired by one of the highest APLA titled dogs available, highly acclaimed and widely touted. The pup is 27 months old and has yet to exhibit anything resembling a point, has low retrieve drive lacking in persistence (about three retrieves and he's lost interest), is almost afraid of live birds, but has a great sense of smell and loves carrion of any source which he can find from many hundreds of yards. He has a half brother (different dam) from a well known PL kennel whose owner posted elsewhere "I have a black lab that will not retrieve. He's afraid of grouse to boot. ... Definitely not a hunter,pointer,or retriever." Again APLA titled parents and APLA titled dogs back six generations.

IMO, so many Labs devoid of naturally inherited "point" have been trained to stand when they detect bird scent (no verbal command is necessary to achieve this) and subsequently given APLA titles that it is close to impossible to tell anything from those titles.

The CPR test is NOT a "natural ability" test. This fact is obvious from the description of the test and the statements given here as to training required to pass. If the APLA were actually serious about its goal of identifying a strain of LRs which point as a natural act they would start with a genuine NA test.

That said, after having hunted most species of upland game birds for many months of many years with mine - from Alaska to the Mexican border and from Nevada to Georgia, I am here to say, though they may be frustrating from time to time, good PLs are a joy to hunt with. I'd love to have either of mine back for the few years I have left.

(IMNSHO) Jere


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## Sniper (Dec 13, 2005)

Jere said:


> So, which, if any, of the dogs in these pictures are actually displaying a natural point?
> 
> 
> 2.
> ...


Ive been involved with the APLA for about 12 years and I couldn't agree more with Jere's comments on the point for some dogs. Its PATHETIC on how some dogs pass and then get bred and pups listed as PL's.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

DMA said:


> Happy you should talk about things you know. By the way your doing a nice job in the Field Trials keep it up.


What have I written which is not accurate? Greer had used a show dog for stud early or that a cpl title isn't worth paying a premium for on a lab? 

In this thread I haven't even voiced my opinion?


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

You never accurately answered the op just kinda stirring the pot. Not that I dont enjoy that on opinion geared post but then now that pot is legal in WA stir away


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I've been playing nice and I always reply to a pointing lab post with, "because they're scared of the birds" 

Do you know Bert Carlson was on a hunting TV show in 1958 or somewhere around then showing a lab he'd bred and trained to point? There is supposed to be a video somewhere here around the kennel of the program. 

The main thing that bugs me about the PL breeders is that so many of them make false claims and sell their dogs for a lot more than they are worth. I've seen no less than 4 PL's in the last two years bought and trained by a well know kennel and have a point about comparable to a bullfrog. owners paid $$'s for the pup and more for the training. One actually got the training free due to the "warranty" to point. 

Not saying this is all of them but when owners start seeking help for pointing when their dog they bought is supposed to point and doesn't, it makes me feel bad because some ass hat has pretty much lied to get more money for the pup and essentially marketed a lie and stolen out of the hopes and dreams of the new owner.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

Good point Happy. I believe one of the goals for APLA is to establish a credible way to verify the pointing traits. From what I hear from the serious pointing lab breeders is that actually seeing the dog work is more influential in breeding decisions than the titles. How many MH dogs have you seen that you would not breed to? I have seen several CPRs that are outstanding but will most likely not bece GMPRs due to the lack of testing in the area. So I wouldn't disregard them do to lack of titles. Goes back to seeing the work. As far as price, well let the market determine that. I see a lot of FC X FC pups lately for 3k


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Lean Mac never had a show CH....lol
> 
> basically, find three birds, "point" for 5 seconds. Repositioning and creeping is allowed. (so, while the dog is repositioning and creeping that still counts as part of the 5 seconds) In the retrieves, the DO NOT need to be to hand. Only within a reasonable "step" of the handler.
> 
> ...


Actually you are horribly wrong, clearly do not understand the rule...... Mcreeping and relocating are alowed, BUT, if done to crowd the bird the score is lowered, if done to pinpoint the bird it is not, And ANY TIME A DOG MOVES ITS FEET COUNT IS RESTARTED...... My MPR failed many an upland for breaking, the time that hurt the most was when we did not get credit for an earlier bird contact that he tripodded in a awkward position...... He put a foot down at seven, judges restarted their count and the gunner and I did not realize so we started to move in and bird flushed..... Bad break but proves foot movement is not allowed for point to score.

Retrieving work of a APLA test is not as stringent as any pure retrieving game, but these dogs are versatile and are asked to switch gears in the day to be independent. I would not buy from an APLA only titled dog unless I had seen it work. There are some out there that are great retrievers as well and play the other games...... Like any other started dog, see it work. There are CPR dogs that are very capable hunting dogs, there are CPR dogs I cringed when I saw them fulfill the requirements to pass........ Just like a MH that was six for six under whoever the judge was, and MH that was 5/12 and scratched anytime they got a tough judge.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Omg! A dog must hold point for 5 seconds! That's barely a flash point in my opinion. Any well bred pointer puppy will hold point with minimal work at least to flush. 5 seconds is a hesitation on game not a point.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

So if we bred the Poodle that is shown pointing to a Labrador, did a little training, we'd have a Pointing Labradoodle?

Could we get it in Silver? 

I see a Gold Mine............


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes, silver poodles are quite handsome.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

So happy, when a dog is from a NFC X FC breeding, and the puppy buyer paid big bucks hoping to have a dog that is competitive in all age and the pup doesn't make it is the breeder an ass hat that over charged? Pointing lab breeders are getting better at reproducing pointing puppies, but that can't be an absolute guarantee that they all will. Good breeding can not prevent a pup from not having appropriate and correct bird contacts.

To many people, a pointing lab pup is the dog they choose to purchase, and pay a premium for. To others, an FC X FC breeding is what they choose to own and pay a premium for. To get a dog to 4xGMPR you are going to have AT MINIMUM 1300 in entry fees in the APLA. And few go 8/8 at master level because so many things can go wrong in the upland. Plus training a PL requires many birds. 

Another thread talks about weather or not to call out bad trainers, and the consensus is that the forum is not the place to do it because of individual bias etc........ Same is true about PLs. Many of us have very talented PLs that are great all around hunting dogs. Happy if you don't want one, don't own one, but don't bash those of us that do.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> So happy, when a dog is from a NFC X FC breeding, and the puppy buyer paid big bucks hoping to have a dog that is competitive in all age and the pup doesn't make it is the breeder an ass hat that over charged? Pointing lab breeders are getting better at reproducing pointing puppies, but that can't be an absolute guarantee that they all will. Good breeding can not prevent a pup from not having appropriate and correct bird contacts.
> 
> To many people, a pointing lab pup is the dog they choose to purchase, and pay a premium for. To others, an FC X FC breeding is what they choose to own and pay a premium for. To get a dog to 4xGMPR you are going to have AT MINIMUM 1300 in entry fees in the APLA. And few go 8/8 at master level because so many things can go wrong in the upland. Plus training a PL requires many birds.
> 
> Another thread talks about weather or not to call out bad trainers, and the consensus is that the forum is not the place to do it because of individual bias etc........ Same is true about PLs. Many of us have very talented PLs that are great all around hunting dogs. Happy if you don't want one, don't own one, but don't bash those of us that do.



A CPL x CPL IS NOT an FC x FC. Come on, that is ridiculousness. I'm not talking about advanced titles and I've said NOTHING derogatory about pointing labs in this thread. You're just trying to make me look like I'm against PL's by making out a description of something which is not the case. The CPL is probably the single lowest standard test for a retriever amongst all popular venues. That fact is proven when you read the rules provided by APLA. I'd say it's comparable to a WD title for labs possibly. 

If you can find anyone on RTF classifieds who would pay more for a CPL x CPL than an FC x FC breeding, I'll pay for a mental exam.

And to say I'm "bashing" people that own PL's? I think you're the one who should take your own advice and not call people out. I've done nothing of the sort in this thread. For one, I've talked about the basic premise to the CPL and utilized the rulebook. You don't like the CPL rulebook, call APLA. I've pointed out what happens often based upon my own experiences.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

First of all, it is not cpl. It is CPR. CPR to CPR is not typically the litters guaranteed to point. I did not say that the two were equivalent. I was saying that someone buying a puppy in hopes of being competitive, pays a premium for dogs that are competitive. People buying a puppy hoping it will point are paying a premium to increase the odds it will point. Buying a puppy is about increasing your odds to get a pup that does what you want it to do.

As a purely RETRIEVING standard, I agree, CPR is nothing more then will they eat in the water to pick up a duck. But these are not PURELY retrievers and CPR is not meant to indicate anything other then some natural tendency to do both.

You will also notice I said I would not buy a pup from only APLA titled parents without seeing it.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

What a dog is worth is between the seller and the buyer. At that point a third party opinion is irrelevant.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Some of the most bred pl lines started with a show lab.


One of the best PLs in the country right now is sired by Grady out of a QAA bitch. Wants your point.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> One of the best PLs in the country right now is sired by Grady out of a QAA bitch. Wants your point.


Thanks for making my "point" in your earlier posts. You wrote exactly what I've been saying in that, a CPR shows the dog will get in the water and point for five seconds. To sell one at a premium price because it has this minimum title is really not right. Snake in the grass not right. Especially, when you could get a puppy started by Gonia for half the cost. The field trial dogs seem to be the top breedings for every retriever venue. No surprise there because they are the best of the best and command a similar price. 

I apologize for calling the dog a certified pointing lab rather than "retriever" as you prefer.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRA-K_sKiA8&feature=share&list=TLsRrDP2qccRM

These guys point for alot more then 5 seconds.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kevin Eskam said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRA-K_sKiA8&feature=share&list=TLsRrDP2qccRM
> 
> These guys point for alot more then 5 seconds.


I see it standing. Trained reaction. Especially true at 6:30 on the video. Wing on a string which has been jerked away from the pup so many times already in his young life he knows he won't get near it if he moves. Fundamental flaw of training the wing on a string. For a true point, high cracked stylish point, those wings need to be up in the air, establishing a scent cone and someone handling the pup into that scent cone. A wing on the ground may as well be a grass hopper or a mouse the pup can't catch. Remember the pictures earlier in this thread of the poodle with a front leg lifted? He was in a pounce position like many of the younger dogs shown in the attached video. Assuming the pup in the video is the same trainer of all the other dogs, I see similarities and I've "Seen" similarities of people who do start pups on wing and a stick training. They chase until the give up. 

A pointer pup from the start rarely needs the wing on a string because they instinctively point at smell and stop. The wing doesn't need to be on a string to be jerked away to condition the pup that a point is the only way it gets to smell it longer or get the reward.

I will concede that I see many trainers using this trick. The one trainer who explained what was happening with the wing and a string trick has more pelts than any active pointer trainer in the USA. I've had the pleasure of spending some time with him over the last few years and talking a lot about dog and PL's. He has one that he kept due to never being paid for training and regularly hunts with it.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Wasnt a wing, it was a live chukar. on a pole so when it flys i dont have to spend another 10 bucks for another one. 
And sorry not buying the wing either, most all of these dogs started pointing at 8 weeks and up on live birds no wings... so they are not standing.
You can make all the excuses you want why they are doing what they do, but i know better....


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## hamie7 (Jul 31, 2009)

Hey Happy hate to tell you my pl is a cpr. And sh. All trained by me a amateur.she is the bear creek hunting preserve pointing champion for 2011 and 2012. And she ran against some very nice shorthairs and other pointers. She took fourth in 2013. Lost to two short hairs and another pl. 

If you dont have a clue about pls. Or just dont believe in them zipp it. You hurt the this forum with your dumb a$$ comments


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I tried wing on a string with my first dog....... He would never point a dead wing, ran himself to exhaustion trying to catch it each time....... First live bird contact he held for over two minutes. Abut ten weeks old. Through away the pole and string, tied the wing to a dummy.........
A year and a half CPR might be a POS, might be a nearly finished dog that is not going to fit the program of the seller. Might be a nice dog that the seller needs to rehome for other reasons......
Like I said, with any started dog, you need to see what the dog really is. There are good and bad. The pup you are talking about is only a better deal if the OP is not interested in a PL..... Perhaps different dogs are right for different people with different hunting patterns. It is not all field trials and duck hunting. People may be willing to pay a Premium for a trait that you might not be. The OP has to see the dog and decide what HE thinks it is worth.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

The was a big "showdown" up in Michagin a couple years ago. PL vs pointing breeds head to head in a 20 acre set field. I think it was like twenty head to heads with a total score........PLs won the even handily


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I had a client with a dog out of titled pointing stock. Never did point. My old SH pointed a pheasant in a SH test one time and all i could think of is he better pick it up. You find me a pointing line that constantly points and I might believe you. I have yet to to see it.

/Paul


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

My current dog goes back six generations of point. All of her littermates point, all of her half sibs out of my male that I know of point, every pup out of my males litter pointed....... Does that count? Too many people offering money back guarantees for them not to be consistently producing point. I do think that the balance between desire to retrieve and desire to point is a difficult one to balance in PLs and there are times if a dog is not brought along balanced, the instinct to retrieve is developed so much it overwhelms the instinct to point and pups that "should" have pointed did not see a live bird until three thousand happy retrieves. That is a balance that pointing breeds do not have to deal with. In my limited experience, force fetch can screw with a dogs mind when it comes to pointing...... I would hesitate to FF a PL pup until the upland behavior is well established.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Thanks for making my "point" in your earlier posts. You wrote exactly what I've been saying in that, a CPR shows the dog will get in the water and point for five seconds. To sell one at a premium price because it has this minimum title is really not right. Snake in the grass not right. Especially, when you could get a puppy started by Gonia for half the cost. The field trial dogs seem to be the top breedings for every retriever venue. No surprise there because they are the best of the best and command a similar price.
> 
> I apologize for calling the dog a certified pointing lab rather than "retriever" as you prefer.



Yu have to see the dog, if it barely met the minimum then it is not worth what I would pay for a pup out of a good breeding, but to assume that it is not worth a premium based only on its title is short sighted....... Fall PL tests have not started yet, dog might be ready to run Master, APLA and AKC and the guy is out of time.

I bet somewhere there is a young dog on a truck somewhere that has NO titles, that someone would be willing to pay a big time premium for an untitled 1.5 year old based on what they see......


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

hamie7 said:


> Hey Happy hate to tell you my pl is a cpr. And sh. All trained by me a amateur.she is the bear creek hunting preserve pointing champion for 2011 and 2012. And she ran against some very nice shorthairs and other pointers. She took fourth in 2013. Lost to two short hairs and another pl.
> 
> If you dont have a clue about pls. Or just dont believe in them zipp it. You hurt the this forum with your dumb a$$ comments


How hard was it for you to get the CPR? That was part of the answers. Not debating if a pl points. You guys are a real sensitive bunch. Again, guys like you come out swinging and obviously didn't read anything I'd written prior. 

If you were buying a pup, you know the requirements of what it takes to be a CPR, would you pay extra because the dog has a CPR title? this is what the OP was trying to decide. Your post just turns it from a discussion to a pissing match.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I had a client with a dog out of titled pointing stock. Never did point. My old SH pointed a pheasant in a SH test one time and all i could think of is he better pick it up. You find me a pointing line that constantly points and I might believe you. I have yet to to see it.
> 
> /Paul


This is just a fact. I've seen it advertised by a few of the top PL breeders. Litter on the ground, three pups showing point, others will make great duck/competition dogs. How would that go over coming from someone selling a litter from a pointing breed?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kevin Eskam said:


> Wasnt a wing, it was a live chukar. on a pole so when it flys i dont have to spend another 10 bucks for another one.
> And sorry not buying the wing either, most all of these dogs started pointing at 8 weeks and up on live birds no wings... so they are not standing.
> You can make all the excuses you want why they are doing what they do, but i know better....


Do you ever run blinds to a pole? I've seen pointer folks training with them and the dogs pick them off fast. Kite string and various sized dowels works really good then the bird can fly off but the weight of the string and dowel won't let them go too far. 

Do you use a dead bird in conjunction with the bird on a string?


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

limiman12 said:


> One of the best PLs in the country right now is sired by Grady out of a QAA bitch. Wants your point.


I agree. My PL is out of NFC Eba and a QAA bitch off Bubba. Bubba threw dogs with natural point. Our girls has pointed for much longer than 5 seconds since she was 8 weeks old when i brought her home. She pointed grass hoppers in the yard and i thought...well i am going to encourage more of that. She is first generation PL, just started running it when the test finally came to the East. She has 9 HOF dogs in a 3 gen pedigree, not exactly show bred....a lot of labs point that have no PL parentage, it is a part of prey drive with tendency to stop during the stalk vs rush in....i dont think most retriever people care to develop it even though there dog may show the tendency. The APLA is trying to make it more repeatable


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok, lots of folks here assuring me the dogs point. Why has nobody with a pl talked about how much and how long the training takes/ how much investment is put into gaining a CPR title? Its the title of the thread and the ops original question. I've never said labs don't point and most of you guys are so up tight you can't read past any slightest criticism potential when it comes to a pl. you guys wouldn't last 30 seconds owning a golden


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Do you ever run blinds to a pole? I've seen pointer folks training with them and the dogs pick them off fast. Kite string and various sized dowels works really good then the bird can fly off but the weight of the string and dowel won't let them go too far.
> 
> Do you use a dead bird in conjunction with the bird on a string?


No I dont use dead birds for pointing, pointers or pointing labs wont point dead birds,,, but for marks yes.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

If you figure training per month it will usually take around 10 to 12 grand to train a dog through OB and FF to steady to wing and shot for a Master dog, You can burn them steady to wing quicker but you loose alot of style doing it, (been there done that)


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kevin Eskam said:


> No I dont use dead birds for pointing, pointers or pointing labs wont point dead birds,,, you should now that.


Jumping to conclusions so quickly- a very good drill is the bird on a string(fly away) with a dead bird in your pocket. I've done it a million times and it can be used for different scenarios. Backing drills, breaking drills, creeping drills etc. It saves birds. Very good for the guy with one or two pigeon or chukar at home and trains alone. It works best (like most drills) with a partner. 

Tie about 15' of kite string to the feet of a bird(or, you alternatively can just use the reel kite string comes on if a big enough one) to a small dowel. Find a size that allows the bird to lift it off the ground and fly about 100' before dropping from the drag weight. Use instead of a pole(which dogs easily see and find). Bring dog into the bird on the string. Do whatever bird work you are focusing on that day/age/ability of dog. If dog is steady, flush bird and allow it to fly away. Dog remains steady through the shot throw the dead bird you have in your pocket for the mark and retrieve. This way, the dog is ALWAYS rewarded for performing the action correctly and learns that if it doesn't do it right, it gets no bird reward. Pretty simple positive training drill.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kevin Eskam said:


> If you figure training per month it will usually take around 10 to 12 grand to train a dog through OB and FF to steady to wing and shot for a Master dog, You can burn them steady to wing quicker but you loose alot of style doing it, (been there done that)


The OP is talking about the entry level title on the dog he was considering buying. Do you think it would really take $12-12K to get a 5 second point(without creeping) and a retrieve near you, not to hand?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

This is a shot of a rescue chessie I had. I was fooling around with it. It had never seen a bird before. Put on a show for me with a high cracked tail and intense nose point at the bird with almost two legs lifted. Once the bird got up and moved after a few seconds it proceeded to start pouncing all around the bird. Typical of any dog which has/is being introduced to something unknown or spooky. This is the pose of a spooked dog. Frozen solid as ice right up until the bird jumped up. 



Lunch break- Work half the dogs in the morning for a couple wild finds, go back out with the second half for afternoon- evenings are just "hunting".


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Jumping to conclusions so quickly- a very good drill is the bird on a string(fly away) with a dead bird in your pocket. I've done it a million times and it can be used for different scenarios. Backing drills, breaking drills, creeping drills etc. It saves birds. Very good for the guy with one or two pigeon or chukar at home and trains alone. It works best (like most drills) with a partner.
> 
> Tie about 15' of kite string to the feet of a bird(or, you alternatively can just use the reel kite string comes on if a big enough one) to a small dowel. Find a size that allows the bird to lift it off the ground and fly about 100' before dropping from the drag weight. Use instead of a pole(which dogs easily see and find). Bring dog into the bird on the string. Do whatever bird work you are focusing on that day/age/ability of dog. If dog is steady, flush bird and allow it to fly away. Dog remains steady through the shot throw the dead bird you have in your pocket for the mark and retrieve. This way, the dog is ALWAYS rewarded for performing the action correctly and learns that if it doesn't do it right, it gets no bird reward. Pretty simple positive training drill.


That is a good idea, I beleive it is good to reward them with a retrieve too, see i learn something every day thanks.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

limiman12 said:


> My current dog goes back six generations of point. All of her littermates point, all of her half sibs out of my male that I know of point, every pup out of my males litter pointed....... Does that count? Too many people offering money back guarantees for them not to be consistently producing point. I do think that the balance between desire to retrieve and desire to point is a difficult one to balance in PLs and there are times if a dog is not brought along balanced, the instinct to retrieve is developed so much it overwhelms the instinct to point and pups that "should" have pointed did not see a live bird until three thousand happy retrieves. That is a balance that pointing breeds do not have to deal with. In my limited experience, force fetch can screw with a dogs mind when it comes to pointing...... I would hesitate to FF a PL pup until the upland behavior is well established.


Overall great post, Fritz, as is the one a couple back (but that "head to head" competition you mentioned was last August and was not really a "head to head" braced dogs contest! The labs went their way, the pointing dogs theirs. AND most of the PLs had a month or so of intensive PROFESSIONAL "preparation" training immediately prior to the event.), I especially praise the parts after what I colored red! 

BUT the red quote won't hold up.
1. How many folks who buy a puppy are gonna give it back for the refund - and still be happy?
2. How many PL puppy buyers really care about 'point' and are gonna collect on the 'guarantee?'" Exploring this question has been rather eye-opening for me. Apparently, many go to PL breedings w/o really caring or, in some cases even wanting 'point,' because they are looking for upland dogs and thing they'll get a better candidate there.
3. How many will mistake a "sticky flush" for a real point and even be happy with it?
4. My experience on the prevalence of 'point' in PL litters has been different from what you reported. Over 15 - 20 years, hunting from Alaska on into numerous states of the 48, I've encountered somewhere around 15 dogs and/or owners of so-called PLs from well-known kennels. Of those only one pointed for sure, another was a maybe, and a third had (IMO) some potential if it were developed properly. All the owners were apparently happy. BUT, IMO, the % of non-pointing dogs was WAY too high. Relating this experience on the PL sites got me a lot of "discussion" - not much of it anything but defensive BS and much downright acrimonious, but it did influence my purchase of the pup mentioned earlier in this thread. In some ways that was a mistake, but it has served to confirm my suspicions based on prior observations.

Jere


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> The OP is talking about the entry level title on the dog he was considering buying. Do you think it would really take $12-12K to get a 5 second point(without creeping) and a retrieve near you, not to hand?


Paul the last 3 dogs i ran in the CPR event i ran at 8 months old, I am a firm believer that the CP level should be all natural, no whoa training, as it is to certify that the dog has natural abilitys. 2 out of the 3 dogs held point until we got close maybe 20 to 50 seconds, Sage held the points for around 15 to 40 seconds (5 seconds is the bare minimum),
It all depends how much retriever work was done with the OP dog, You know as well as i do that OB FF takes a good 1 1/2 to 2 months to complete it, Bird work? It is all up to what was done with the dog, I would say 2000 to 3000 for training for a CP dog if it was OB FF, and bird work and marks and maybe Force to pile. Depends on who trained it and how much they charged.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Jere said:


> Overall great post, Fritz, as is the one a couple back (but that "head to head" competition you mentioned was last August and was not really a "head to head" braced dogs contest! The labs went their way, the pointing dogs theirs.  AND most of the PLs had a month or so of intensive PROFESSIONAL "preparation" training immediately prior to the event.), I especially praise the parts after what I colored red!
> 
> BUT the red quote won't hold up.
> 1. How many folks who buy a puppy are gonna give it back for the refund - and still be happy?
> ...


Bull crap on the most had pro training a month prior. My dog didn't and I know most of the others just rolled up the day before. My dog had been on birds one time before that day. He found a bird on that run and I was happy about that. Also, how was it not head to head? I ran my dog (PL) against a GSP at the same exact same time. If I saw cover different and didn't want to run over the same ground as the GSP, which that I didn't think would have as many birds, why would I do that?

1. People have the same problem with health guarantees (sp?), not the same, but same logic. People bond with the dog and don't want to give it up.
2. That's their choice.
3. Who knows, but if they're happy with it why not let them be happy about it?
4. Again if they owners are happy who cares?


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

Socks said:


> [1] Bull crap on the most had pro training a month prior. My dog didn't and I know most of the others just rolled up the day before. My dog had been on birds one time before that day. He found a bird on that run and I was happy about that.
> 
> [2.]Also, how was it not head to head? I ran my dog (PL) against a GSP at the same exact same time. *If I saw cover different and didn't want to run over the same ground as the GSP, which that I didn't think would have as many birds, why would I do that?*
> 
> ...


[1.] Your dog was one of how many, Joe? Every dog Dale prepared (at least 6 if I remember) was professionally prepared, were they not? Give me the numbers - maybe 'most' WAS a stretch, perhaps I should have said 'many' - I don't mind eating a little crow off and on. <VBG>. How many of the pointing breed dogs had such preparation? The website (pointingdogchallenge.com) has been taken down - all that seems to be left of it on the web is at http://web.archive.org/web/20130421010334/http://pointingdogchallenge.com/ , the reports at the old APLA site are gone, but I have them saved at home I'll read again when I get home from hunting in November. The michigan-sportsman discussions are still there for interested parties to read See threads from August and September 2011. Those provide some food for thought along these lines! 

It was interesting that the pointing breed dogs out scored the PLs on retrieving was it not?

[2] Running at the same time is not running a "head to head" braced dogs contest. To do that the braced dogs run the same course at the same time. When you decided to run your dog over different ground you removed all aspects of the environment from the contest You may as well have run your dog in a different county at the same time and reported the results by phone! A braced contest tries to pit both dogs against one another on the same cover and the same birds.

[3] That's the point, Joe; and why, for most of the public buying a puppy, any such guarantee is worse than worthless. a breeder buying pups as possible breeding stock may benefit from such guarantees, but not mm, pop and kids family lking for a canine family member.

[4], [5] & [6] Its nice for them to be happy with their dogs! But when the dogs are supposed to be, were advertised, bred and sold as POINTING Labs no one benefits from their glowing testimonies as to their pleasure when, in fact, the dogs do not naturally point. 

Jere


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Last year after a the pointer ht held at my house was over and the last four braces had 4 dogs go bird less. We were at the BBQ making chukar wraps and my Chessie female had 9 retrieves to hand in 15 minutes. Maybe retrievers can find birds better than pointers. Didn't even have to shoot them. She locates, stalks and pounces. Very effective at collecting training birds.


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## Bob Carlson (Mar 4, 2009)

Jere said:


> [1.] Your dog was one of how many, Joe? Every dog Dale prepared (at least 6 if I remember) was professionally prepared, were they not? Give me the numbers - maybe 'most' WAS a stretch, perhaps I should have said 'many' - I don't mind eating a little crow off and on. <VBG>. How many of the pointing breed dogs had such preparation? The website (pointingdogchallenge.com) has been taken down - all that seems to be left of it on the web is at http://web.archive.org/web/20130421010334/http://pointingdogchallenge.com/ , the reports at the old APLA site are gone, but I have them saved at home I'll read again when I get home from hunting in November. The michigan-sportsman discussions are still there for interested parties to read See threads from August and September 2011. Those provide some food for thought along these lines!
> 
> It was interesting that the pointing breed dogs out scored the PLs on retrieving was it not?
> 
> ...


Jere,

With all due respect I really have to ask you Who would go to any kind of a challenge, be it hunt test, field trial, dock diving, or any other venue without preparation? I did not attend the pointing dog challenge, but I would certainly be prepared if I did. I am good friends with one participant who owns a GSP Kennel, and he has no problem admitting that the Labs beat them, and that the challenge was fair. I owned a direct littermate of your dog and also trained another. The pups flat out pointed and were bird finding machines. The female I owned now rides in a Lear jet with her new owner, hunting in as many states as you. I am told she is the star of the show wherever they go. The male is a grouse hunter in northern MI. The pups were very easy to train, and alot of fun. Just like any other pointer, they required proper bird exposure. If you are ever in Mich, please stop by, I have grandpups, and great grandpups of your dogs sire, and they all point. Sorry about your experience, maybe you should just wash the dog out and start fresh. 

Bob


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

Bob Carlson said:


> Jere,
> 
> [1]
> With all due respect I really have to ask you Who would go to any kind of a challenge, be it hunt test, field trial, dock diving, or any other venue without preparation? I did not attend the pointing dog challenge, but I would certainly be prepared if I did. I am good friends with one participant who owns a GSP Kennel, and he has no problem admitting that the Labs beat them, and that the challenge was fair.
> ...


Respect back at you, Bob.

[1]
`You'll have to ask the folks who went what their expectations were relative to the competition aspect of the challenge and how they prepared - if they did. Perhaps they took as a fun day at the park with a bunch of other dog owners? I believe I read a number of the pointing dog folks who originally signed up "prepared" by dropping out - for whatever reasons - leaving the organizers from that side scrambling to find alternates at the last minute. OTOH, you're correct - the PL folks were mostly well prepared to give it their best shot. 

I didn't take exception to any aspect of the challenge, let alone its fairness, per se. It was the business of the folks who set it up to decide the rules etc.... and to enjoy the day or not. I really don't care about any of that but the results don't mean a whole lot to me vis-a-vis a comparison of the braced dogs that didn't run the same ground. I am glad so many had fun and some of the best prepared "PLs" in the country got to be shown off to doubting Thomas's who have traditional pointing breed dogs - something long overdue IMO ( I tried early in the century to get NSTRA to allow PLs to compete in that organization's trials w/o success and, to my knowledge, no pointing dog trial venue outside some run-and-gun deals do to this day.)

What I took exception to was Fritz's characterization of the event as "head to head" and I articulated my rationale in my reply to Joe. I hold to my contention it was not a "head to head" competition. If you have difficulty with what I said in that context - have at it. Otherwise you're not going to get me to discuss the challenge further. Anyone who is interested in what the participants thought and felt about the day, the setting of the rules, the results etc; is free to go to the site I referenced and read many pages of posts in several threads. I'll agree to dig out and post actual URL's of the thread starting posts if anyone cares. They do make some interesting reading.

[2] I am not willing to discuss details which relate to persons or businesses involved with any of the dogs I mentioned in public. I am happy for your experiences but I know they are not universally experienced by everyone buying "PL" pups out of Michigan.

I'm no total virgin wrt exposing young dogs to birds or other prey, if you're suggesting otherwise. I started that stuff as a kid in the early 1950s. I believe I posted something on the subject on this forum a while ago. My personal experience has been amplified by close contact with a few professionals with decades of experience. I'm not responsible for what went on before the pup arrived here. That and the selection of the pup was in the hands of the parents' owners. I had offered bird introduction suggestions before the litter was even whelped and assumed bird introduction would take place and be "proper." I got on with same with the subject pup as soon as he settled in after arriving here and though there was no sign of 'point' I saw no reason to believe he would be uninterested in wild game birds a couple of weeks later when we got into the field. I'd be interested in what you think constitutes "proper bird exposure" for a pointing dog pup. Perhaps a new thread is in order, or private communications?

As for your "wash out" suggestion - don't think this hasn't crossed my mind. That's kind of like returning a pup for satisfaction of a guarantee - works well enough for those who are only interested in a dog for its performance characteristics, as a commodity, etc; but fails miserably for those who take on a new pup as a member of the family. There are two humans in this family but, as a practical matter, he seems to be doing this to himself. His fourth [third] hunting season will be starting next week as the first three [two] did with six to eight weeks of near daily field experience in wild bird country to be followed by whatever bird exposure presents itself after that through the winter and even into spring 2014. If things progress this fall as they have for the past three [two] he'll spend more and more time in the camper with Sandy and I'll spend more and more time afield with the setter! 

I'm too old to take on another Lab. experiment. Just a few weeks ago I passed up on a puppy directly descended by close line-breeding from some of the best dogs the kennel that produced the only Lab. I have encountered in my travels that unmistakably and convincingly pointed (even after his owner - a spaniel guy - had tried to break him of it!). That was probably a big mistake but there were unimaginable complications I won't describe and three dogs is more than Sandy and I wanted again. These two dogs are probably the last two I'll ever have. I'm kinda sorry it looks like one won't be a hunting Lab., let alone a pointing one but "Life is what happens when you're making other plans."

Jere


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

Deadriver seemed pretty sure of himself but didn't take the bait. Anyone else want to try? Hint - they are not all actual points on game. #8 is,IMO, anyone's guess. The dog looks to be expecting the hammers of He!! to drop at any moment so my guess is the behavior was e-collar forced stop on scent and/or sight of birds.




Jere said:


> So, which, if any, of the dogs in these pictures are actually displaying a natural point?
> 
> 
> 2.
> ...


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