# Here's a training discussion topic



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ok,since Captn Jack complained that there are no training threads
I will try and start one.

I have never seen Lardy or anyone else for that matter,give a good explanation ofWhy you drop your hand to send Dog for a mark.

When and why do you drop it? On what bird of a multiple set up?
How long do you leave your hand down before you send? What que does the dog give you to let you know he is ready?do you lift your hand back up if the dog looks off?

Interested in different perspectives

Gooser


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I think it is in the marking set, maybe not. But the fireside chat time with Mike and Dennis and the woman whose name escapes me.
Definitely talks about it. A peeve of mine is the folk who drop the hand so far back the dog never sees it. Second peeve it those who thrust forward the hand and some the entire body following the hand, as they send. I use the hand on blind retrieves to queue the dog along with a verbal yes, that it is locked on. And for the long hard send of a distant memory bird or retired gun. Almost never (the Atkinson sig like never say never) on the go bird. I put the hand down, pause, and say the dogs name or back and remain still.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

i believe it was dave rorum uses the hand on the go bird, so the dog is conditioned NOT to go (breaking) until the handler is released, then the hand goes down, and also to cue a long retired gun


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

On LRG or long difficult bird, hand goes down when showing guns before calling for birds.
Hand down always on go bird. As mentioned, conditions never go until the hand goes down. 
No hand on second/short bird of a triple, or bird 2 & 3 of a quad. Combine with relatively soft send.
Hand down always on LRG. Cue to dog we are going long. Combine with relatively loud send.

I don't have a predetermined time that I delay before sending, but there is a definite pause. I'll add a pet peeve of mine is no pause at all so the handler puts hand down, dog starts to go and handler tries to say dogs name before its too late. In training I'll vary the pause from about 1-3 seconds.

I don't use the hand to line up the dog, but rather as a cue that the dog is looking where I want. If dog looks away, I will remove my hand and get the dog looking in the correct direction before putting the hand down again.

These are things I obsess about when watching training DVDs or watching experienced handlers run dogs. Mike does discuss on TRM. The lady's name is Carry Hunkle. Mike discusses in the workshops he conducts. Dennis Voigt has written about it also in Retrievers ONLINE.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

The hand down (for marks) is just a confirmation that the dog is looking in the right direction. Plus all the things CaptJack said. I remember Lardy discussing this in his dvd but forget where. 

I think Lardy also says that this helps in getting him used to running to the pile (FTP) because he is used to being sent on marks with the hand down.

Dave Rorem says watch the dogs eyebrows when you put your hand down. He says something like: it is a glimpse into his soul. I will look up his exact quote.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

No hand job for me period.
As you can see people use it for many different reasons and many different ways which is a pet peeve of mine. I just dont do it, dont see the point and dont feel it is necessary.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> Second peeve it those who thrust forward the hand and some the entire body following the hand, as they send.


Hear ya' Ken.
Haven't had a dog yet that runs any _faster_ with the forward, methodical, (theatrical?), SENDS ;-)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> A peeve of mine is the folk who drop the hand so far back the dog never sees it. .



I put my hand over the dog's head when sending for the go bird. There are times that my hand does not extend past the dog's eyes. I believe that the dogs can "feel" the presence of my hand above their head, even if they do not see it.


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Ken Bora said:


> Second peeve it those who *thrust forward the hand *and some the entire body following the hand, as they send.


This is a bad habit of mine, that I am trying to break. I have a tendency to push my hand out as I send for blinds.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I put my hand over the dog's head when sending for the go bird. There are times that my hand does not extend past the dog's eyes. I believe that the dogs can "feel" the presence of my hand above their head, even if they do not see it.


but I am purty sure your pups front legs are in line with your legs. And they do know your hand is there. I think they can smell it. I am speaking of the folk that have a pup that has his BACK legs or tail even, in line with the handlers legs. And they still drop a hand. I know you've seen um.


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## awclark (Oct 20, 2007)

Once your dog is presumed to have locked on the mark or blind or whenever you use your hand, keep the hand still and let the dog run out from under it when you send. Don't snatch it back and don't shove it forward.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

If i am sitting on a bucket (HRC) I NEVER try to put my hand over the dogs head for the go bird. I have seen WAAAY to many people fiddle around putting the gun up, standing up, tripping over the bucket...ultimately taking the dogs focus and concentration off of the mark...for the sake of "dropping the hand". If your dog has the bird marked and you're sitting on a bucket holding a shotgun, give it the 2 count for focus and send him!! That said, if I am standing, either in training or testing I ALWAYS drop my hand for go bird. I have never run FT but it makes sense to put down for LRG or other difficult bird.


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## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> The hand down (for marks) is just a confirmation that the dog is looking in the right direction. Plus all the things CaptJack said. I remember Lardy discussing this in his dvd but forget where.
> 
> I think Lardy also says that this helps in getting him used to running to the pile (FTP) because he is used to being sent on marks with the hand down.
> 
> Dave Rorem says watch the dogs eyebrows when you put your hand down. He says something like: it is a glimpse into his soul. I will look up his exact quote.


Lardy talks about it in either the Basics or Transition Total Retriever Marking video. I just watched the end of Basics through the de-cheating marks this past weekend but can't remember exactly where he talks about it. It might be in the nightly discussion part. But this exact topic is discussed in the videos. Pretty much on par with what CaptJack says above.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

on the go bird i never do it. on the 2nd or 3rd bird i generally let him come back, say "wheres your bird", if he has his body aligned with where the bird is, and is looking right at it, i do nothing but release him by his name again. i figure i dont need anything else to distract him. Now I am always ready to line him up with a "no" cue or a "good" verbal cue if he's not lined up right and then ill use my hand when he's at the "good" position to reaffirm he's where he needs to be. (same as on a blind for us). 
never ran a FT (for one ive only had boykins up till now) but ive watched Rorems handling videos and see his way of identifying the guns with the hand and would do that with my lab if she's gonna go in the FT direction. 
But for HT's since you can't show them the guns, i just go about my business knowing/HOPING he's gonna mark the birds correctly by following my body when im turning to shoot each bird. then ill make the decision as he returns with each bird and gets ready for the next. I guess you need to know your dog. I can generally TELL when my dog is confident he has the next bird pinned by his body language coming back to the line. Almost always when he KNOWS exactly where the next bird is, right before he gets back as he's spinning around he looks the direction of the bird before he's at heel. so i dont mess with him.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

BlaineT said:


> on the go bird i never do it. on the 2nd or 3rd bird i generally let him come back, say "wheres your bird", if he has his body aligned with where the bird is, and is looking right at it, i do nothing but release him by his name again. i figure i dont need anything else to distract him. Now I am always ready to line him up with a "no" cue or a "good" verbal cue if he's not lined up right and then ill use my hand when he's at the "good" position to reaffirm he's where he needs to be. (same as on a blind for us).
> never ran a FT (for one ive only had boykins up till now) but ive watched Rorems handling videos and see his way of identifying the guns with the hand and would do that with my lab if she's gonna go in the FT direction.
> But for HT's since you can't show them the guns, i just go about my business knowing/HOPING he's gonna mark the birds correctly by following my body when im turning to shoot each bird. then ill make the decision as he returns with each bird and gets ready for the next. I guess you need to know your dog. I can generally TELL when my dog is confident he has the next bird pinned by his body language coming back to the line. Almost always when he KNOWS exactly where the next bird is, right before he gets back as he's spinning around he looks the direction of the bird before he's at heel. so i dont mess with him.



X2..............


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I am being taught the use of the hand. It is very foriegn to me. I was one when running tests that would just turn and face the next markand let the dog come to heel, OR let the dog come back, and choose the next bird. I never wanted to fuss unless I had to.

It has been shown to me to make a sequence or routine out of how to stand, step up or back, and use the hand. It has been told, that the hand, especially for younger dogs is a great tool for steadying in conjuction with a "count"... I am being taught " 5".

It is Painfully hard for me to do this... That 5 count is a really long time,, and I have a bad habit of counting really fast. ONETWOTHREEFOURFIVE
When running experienced dogs that have been trained this way, it is amazing just how much more confident and relaxed the dog is at the line, and also how much more smoothly everything goes.

Then the bucket deal!

I really think now, the best method would be to teach this regiment of stepping up ,back, and use of the hand even on a go bird, first,, by being in the standing position, with the dog having a very reliable "sit" and only turning his head to mark. No moving his butt.. After that has become your method or routine,, then transfere it to the bucket. I have watched a certain Pro in my region that shoots the gun both left and right handed. It makes perfect sense to me now, why he does this.. If you have the dog basically sitting at the bucket, lined up for the go bird to start with, then its the same regiment up stepping up or back,(spinning INTO or AWAY from dog.. does NOT break the sit position) the dog, then just hold the gun verticle after you have shot the go bird, and drop your hand and send. After the dog has been sent for that bird, then it becomes the same regiment only then as the dog makes the go bird retrieve, you have placed the gun in the stand and can pick up the birds and run the dog in the standing position.

Best made plans,,, prolly to screwed up to follow them .. I's still stuck on being able to count to five..

Gooser


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

For us newbies, can anyone post or point to a video that shows what you all are talking about?


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

The hand is one of the most important tools a handler has at his disposal--properly used it can get your butt out of trouble. Depending on how you use it in training, the hand can communicate the line you want, the distance you want and cue off any object that may give your dog needed information to make a better retrieve--mark or blind. it's foolish not to incorporate it into your communication skills with your dog.
GG


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Apparently my photobucket is acting up again. But if you will do a search for Hank (by Pirate) Slowing Down it will show what is meant by puting your hand down. CaptJack would probably say that I should have left my hand down a bit longer before sending him.

Better yet search for Hank (by Pirate) PB with diversions.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Ok,since Captn Jack complained that there are no training threads
> I will try and start one.
> 
> I have never seen Lardy or anyone else for that matter,give a good explanation ofWhy you drop your hand to send Dog for a mark.
> ...


I usually put my hand down to guide my dog on a blind. Probably more than most people use their hand. Use it to guide him to where I want his head and say "good" and "yes" so he locks down on that spot. I use it also on the last mark down or if it is a long bird and he may have forgotten. So with a loud voice and hand down I send him on his name "Tar"!!That is just my method!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

PalouseDogs said:


> For us newbies, can anyone post or point to a video that shows what you all are talking about?


A full explanation is in this back issue of Retrievers ONLINE.
_Hold Back, Lock Up and Prepare to Launch - The Real Role of the Hand Down 2006, Vol. 17, Issue 5, Pgs 3-5_
You can find in the index of articels at:
http://www.retrieversonline.com/pdfarchives/12_ROL_Training.pdf

At about 55 sec into this clip, Mike Lardy uses the hand down to send dog...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsZpdHal4Oo&feature=relmfu


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

And what about at Hunt Tests? Was at a junior 2 years ago and a guy used his hand to send and was told by judge that it was intimidation and not to do it. Have been to several tests since then and even helped work a two day senior last week, but didn't think to look if anyone used the hand or not. Now as I watch the Lardy dvds, I am compelled to use the hand, but not sure if it's allowed at the HTs???


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Jhenion said:


> And what about at Hunt Tests? Was at a junior 2 years ago and a guy used his hand to send and was told by judge that it was intimidation and not to do it. Have been to several tests since then and even helped work a two day senior last week, but didn't think to look if anyone used the hand or not. Now as I watch the Lardy dvds, I am compelled to use the hand, but not sure if it's allowed at the HTs???


I too have stories similar to this one.
I was told I HANDLED on a mark, because I dropped my hand.

From talkkng with many experienced people, I do believe it is allowed at all HT venues. Individual judges that Warn you of reasons of the hands use being against the rules,should be noted in your little black book.

I am not experienced enough to own one of these black books,, but I am learning.

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Do you all believe the use of the hand for MARKS is a totally different tool, than the use of the Hand for Blinds?

Gooser


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Photobucket is back up.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...y-Pirate)-Slowing-Down&highlight=Hank+slowing


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I use hand:

As steadying cue. Dog cannot leave on go bird, until hand comes down, and I say dog's name "Foxy"
As reinforcement cue. Line dog up for blind. Spine, head aligned. Eyes lined up well. "Good, or that's it" Hand comes down, wait a beat, then "Back"
As help when lost. Dog returns, needs to be sent for retired bird. Dog lost in space. Hand comes down "Here". Work to get focus, then send, "Foxy"
As leave it cue. Poison bird. Hand comes down. "No". "Dead bird."

And probably a zillion more things


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Do you all believe the use of the hand for MARKS is a totally different tool, than the use of the Hand for Blinds?
> 
> Gooser



The hand is simply a tool. Sometimes, you use it like you would on a blind. Other times, not.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> I too have stories similar to this one.
> I was told I HANDLED on a mark, because I dropped my hand.
> 
> From talkkng with many experienced people, I do believe it is allowed at all HT venues. Individual judges that Warn you of reasons of the hands use being against the rules,should be noted in your little black book.
> ...


Odd. At least at AKC venues, I think as many people use their hand as don't. Never personally heard anyone even hint at the possibility that it could be considered handling on a mark *once the birds are down.* You are not allowed to point out marks to the dog, or line them up like you can in a field trial, so I could see a judge having a problem with you dropping your hand to point out gun stations before the marks are thrown.

Edit to answer the OP's question; I use my hand on the go bird as a steadiness tool and on blinds to help get the dog lined up in the right direction. I can't remember using my hand on other marks. Though I'm warming to the idea of using it for the long retired.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I only use it when the dog lines up slightly wrong and I need to adjust the head, then as it's already there I send, removing the hand distracts the dog. If the dog lines up perfect and knows where the mark is, no hand. On blinds the dog doesn't know so about 95% of the time hand, 5% of time miracle happens or perhaps dog can see orange and dog lines up perfect so no hand. Dog heels right side, hand is used, Left side hand is never used. Why? because, as I was embarrassed to find out last year I got an eye dominance thing, that wont allow me to line the dog up correctly on the left side, with my hand, always off ~10 degrees to the right, which is a lot with a fast dog.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> When and why do you drop it? On what bird of a multiple set up?
> How long do you leave your hand down before you send? What que does the dog give you to let you know he is ready?do you lift your hand back up if the dog looks off?
> 
> Interested in different perspectives
> ...


I always use the hand on the go bird. Use of the hand, and a dog's understanding of its varied meanings, is an invaluable tool for a competitive dog. As part of an overriding protocol of verbal and non-verbal communications use of the hand imparts different meanings. On the "go" bird, my dogs are taught that they don't go unless the hand is present and their name is used to send. This practice can really come into play in an honoring situation. Just another means, along with teaching the "no bird" cue, to help prevent a break. You don't see the hand, you don't go. And by "see" the hand I mean just over their head and within their peripheral vision. Not in front of their face or behind their head where it can't be seen. 

For a blind, the hand is the final aspect of a series of cues such as "dead bird" "here", "heel", and subtle body movements for alignment. I will usually say "good" or "right there" and put the hand down and send.

On a marking test/set-up I always put my hand down once the dog is focused on the first bird down and say "mark" and then signal the judges or call for the birds. I hope that I have trained my dogs appropriately for this use of the hand to discourage/prevent head swinging to the next bird. Birds go down and the hand goes down again for the "go" bird. 

I will sometime use the hand to accentuate a particular mark in a set-up, a key bird. This imparts that I need you to focus on this bird closely. Where I might spend a relatively short time showing a flyer or other bird, I will linger the dog on a key bird and reiterate its importance by putting my hand down and saying "mark". 

I almost never use my hand for a memory bird but will sometimes if I believe the dog is uncertain of its location or if I need to impart a greater sense of urgency along with a firmer/louder send.

I pick up my hand if the dog looks away and use other cues like "no", here" or "heel" to have the dog look back.

Like Ted wrote, probably a bunch of other ways.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

For years I did not use my hand at all for sending the dog. I thought the movement of bringing the hand in disturbed the dog's concentration of his destination. Also, in the Carr Rorem tapes, Carr had a lady, (Mrs. Rorem?) keep her hand in her pocket to send the dog and use nothing but her body and feet movements to align the dog. It works. 

I thought for several years that I was missing out on a line of possible helpful communication with the dog. So I watched successful trainers and handlers, asked many handlers how they used their hands, (thanks Ted) and paid attention to the hand use threads on the RTF. (it's come up many times in the past)

I believe my handling is a work in progress, evolving with time and changing some for each individual dog. Currently this is what I try to do. At a trial, not a hunt test, I'll use my hand to help point out the gunner's stations. After being released to send the dog, I'll use my hand for the go bird. On short retired birds I believe looming over them with my hand out tends to pressure them some driving them deeper, so I do not use my hand on short, mid, or intermediate retired birds. Since I believe using the hand tends to drive the dog, I do use it on long retired birds. I also use my hand after the dog is lined up on a blind as a kind of a double check on their alignment and an extra signal to go. I do vary the length of time my hand is down in training but at a trial, I like to be in rhythym with the dog. It's not always possible to be in rhythm with them if they're acting lost of if we're having a conflict over which bird is to be picked up next. Then I'll hold them there longer with my hand mabe taking it out and down again hopefully emphasising which bird we're picking up next and where it is.


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## Tom Mouer (Aug 26, 2003)

Re Post #22 Use of the hand???
Perhaps the judge was refering to "intensive lining" (AKC Hunt Test reg (p. 25 Section 6).
Or perhaps the judge was inexperienced and was not very good at explaining the infraction to the handler. 
Or the handler did not relay the correct information whan retelling the "story."
Or..?
Happens alot!


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## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

Since I got all my starts from Brits (mostly spaniel guys, a few lab guys), I learned to send dogs from my left using my right hand to line. In their method, you use your body to realign the dog. The dog doesn't line up straight with your legs, but you use your front let to sway the dog left or right. Once lined up (at this point you are almost facing the dog) you drop your right hand use it for tightening up the line direction.

Most people on here will probably hate that. But, it's how I learned and its how I've always rolled. I tried using my left hand once.. and boy that felt awkward. As far as when, I use my hand on the go bird and each mark. My delay is a bit shorter on the marks than on a blind, intentionally. I would say the only time I don't drop my hand is on a diversion retrieval. My first dog had a tendency to bring me her mark and then break for the diversion bird. Only time she broke. I stopped dropping my hand and started sending her rather rapidly after she delivered the marked bird. My mistake.. I should probably fix that.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bartona500 said:


> My first dog had a tendency to bring me her mark and then break for the diversion bird. Only time she broke. I stopped dropping my hand and started sending her rather rapidly after she delivered the marked bird. My mistake.. I should probably fix that.



Yes, she did a good job of training you


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTE
I really think now, the best method would be to teach this regiment of stepping up ,back, and use of the hand even on a go bird, first,, by being in the standing position, with the dog having a very reliable "sit" and only turning his head to mark. No moving his butt.. After that has become your method or routine,, then transfere it to the bucket.][/QUOTE]

Mike 
Can you or some else explain the reasoning behind this method as compared to a dog that self lines himself to each mark. I don't want to hear breaking reasons or anything like that.
Marking reasons is what I am looking for.
Thanks
Pete


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Pete said:


> Mike
> Can you or some else explain the reasoning behind this method as compared to a dog that self lines himself to each mark. I don't want to hear breaking reasons or anything like that.
> Marking reasons is what I am looking for.
> Thanks
> Pete


Post 31 explains much of the marking reason for using the hand or not. Dennis Voigt's RO article goes in to more detail I'm sure. The hand, as used by Lardy and Dennis is not used to line the dog on the mark. Rather, as I understand it, is used as a cue to the dog that he is looking in the proper direction. Also, after getting the go bird, no hand is relax and dig out that short bird, hand down is drive to get the long retired bird.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Post 31 explains much of the marking reason for using the hand or not. Dennis Voigt's RO article goes in to more detail I'm sure. The hand, as used by Lardy and Dennis is not used to line the dog on the mark. Rather, as I understand it, is used as a cue to the dog that he is looking in the proper direction. Also, after getting the go bird, no hand is relax and dig out that short bird, hand down is drive to get the long retired bird.


Glen
I didn't mention anything about the hands. A dog will figure out what the handler hand is for if the handler is consistent in its use. I was referring to a dog who is sat and must only turn his head to see the birds even if the 2nd to 3rd bird is 180 degrees
I am referring to a dog that repositions himself and is self lining meaning his spine head and tail are in line with each bird as they go off.
Pete


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Pete said:


> [QUOTE
> I really think now, the best method would be to teach this regiment of stepping up ,back, and use of the hand even on a go bird, first,, by being in the standing position, with the dog having a very reliable "sit" and only turning his head to mark. No moving his butt.. After that has become your method or routine,, then transfere it to the bucket.]


Mike 
Can you or some else explain the reasoning behind this method as compared to a dog that self lines himself to each mark. I don't want to hear breaking reasons or anything like that.
Marking reasons is what I am looking for.
Thanks
Pete[/QUOTE]
Pete

My comment of stepping up or stepping back on the dog happens as the birds are being shot or presented.
It happens before the dog has made a retrieve and comes back and self aligns.
The dog comes to the line ,and in most cases is lined up on the go bird.you then either step up, or step back,depending on marks being left to right or right to left .
You watch some handlers like Ted run, and the movement is very suttle. Ted has said before you are working to get the dog to look,but not aware of your movement.
My comment to teach this routine first, and then transfere to bucket.
Could replace the wild swings with the gun as often seen, because the dog is never allowed to break sit or reposition as they say. The dog only moves its head to mark,as ques by your stepping up or stepping back.or...swivel right or swivel left on the bucket.
I am on my phone at work
hope my answer made some sense 

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Let me add one more thing

I can oly do this correctly if someone is standing behind me coaching me.

If left to my own devices,I screw it up everytime.it is very hard for me


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> My comment of stepping up or stepping back on the dog happens as the birds are being shot or presented.
> It happens before the dog has made a retrieve and comes back and self aligns.
> The dog comes to the line ,and in most cases is lined up on the go bird.you then either step up, or step back,depending on marks being left to right or right to left .
> You watch some handlers like Ted run, and the movement is very suttle. Ted has said before you are working to get the dog to look,but not aware of your movement.
> ...



yes Mike ,,,your answer made a lot of sense. But it wasn't the answer I was looking for. You mentioned a dog should only turn his head when watching birds. Which means the dogs alignment is off on at least 2 birds. So my question is,,,how does it affect marking. Compared to a dog that naturally aligns itself to each bird as they go off. does that make a dog mark worse when he aligns his tail/body/head to each bird. 
Thanks Glen and Mike for your responses


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Pete said:


> Glen
> I didn't mention anything about the hands. A dog will figure out what the handler hand is for if the handler is consistent in its use. I was referring to a dog who is sat and must only turn his head to see the birds even if the 2nd to 3rd bird is 180 degrees
> I am referring to a dog that repositions himself and is self lining meaning his spine head and tail are in line with each bird
> Pete


Sorry Pete. I don't have an answer really, just observation of the 5 dogs I run. The dog that is my calmest on line, will sit and move only her head to watch the marks thrown. She is my best marker, the dog that absolutely squares up on the bird being thrown is my worst marker. He will reposition his body even if the guns are separated by only a couple degrees. I know there is more to being a good marker than just calmly watching the birds, but there is a corelation with my pups. I also, find it easier to to influence my girl that sits still with subtle movements of my legs as compared to my more animated dogs.

edit: Just to add, I will position the dog somewhat up the middle (aligned with none of the guns) when I have a 180 degree swing as you describe. I will square the dog up on the go bird after being released by the judge before I send. I once sent my girl for a go bird in a derby when she was lined up more on the memory bird than the go bird (450 yd memory bird, 220 yd go bird). She ran about 100 yards on a dead straight line, then just stopped and turned as if to ask why did you send me out here where there are no birds. Most of my dogs can be sent when just looking at the go bird, Maggie goes where her body is lined up.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

As is true for most of life, every decision you make involves some compromise.

For example, let's say the birds go off at 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, and then 3 o'clock.

There are probably a zillion different ways to do this, but consider the following two:

1) Dog aligned at 9, guns go off, you move, it moves to 12. After bird at 12 goes off, you move to 3, dog moves to 3. This method means that dog is moving alot on the line. If you told the dog "sit", it has learned that you really didn't mean it.

2) Dog is aligned at 3. You step up, dog moves its head to 9. Gun goes off, you move to 12, dog's head moves with you. Gun goes off, you move to 3, dog's head moves with you. You have maintained your "sit" standard.

Is 1 or 2 superior in terms of encouraging marking? I don't know.

I do know that I like a dog to have a rock solid sit. I think I have had some dogs with solid sits that were good to excellent marking dogs. Could they have been better if I allowed more movement? Maybe, but then I think you pay a different kind of price when you have a loose sit on the line.

Different strokes for different folks


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Post 31 explains much of the marking reason for using the hand or not. Dennis Voigt's RO article goes in to more detail I'm sure. The hand, as used by Lardy and Dennis is not used to line the dog on the mark. Rather, as I understand it, is used as a cue to the dog that he is looking in the proper direction. Also, after getting the go bird, no hand is relax and dig out that short bird, hand down is drive to get the long retired bird.


Interesting discussion on hand use. When I put my hand down I do use it to line but when he lock and holds on the place where I want him I say "good" or "yes" or both to confirn yes this is right. Right or wrong it works for me.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Do you all believe the use of the hand for MARKS is a totally different tool, than the use of the Hand for Blinds?
> 
> Gooser


No I don't. I think they both send a message to your dog your going in the right direction. On a mark I say 'where is your mark" If he locks and loads we are okay if not my hand will go down and direct a bit. With a yes he really zeroes in on the mark and I send him. Just a little help??


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Interesting discussion on hand use. When I put my hand down I do use it to line but when he lock and holds on the place where I want him I say "good" or "yes" or both to confirn yes this is right. Right or wrong it works for me.


Many folks do that with success. At the Lardy workshops, they teach line the dog with "here" and "heel" commands, pats on the leg, snaps of the fingers, step up or back, etc... Once the dog locks in, the hand goes down. If the dog looks away, take the hand away and get the dog back on focus as before.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Sorry Pete. I don't have an answer really, just observation of the 5 dogs I run. The dog that is my calmest on line, will sit and move only her head to watch the marks thrown. She is my best marker, the dog that absolutely squares up on the bird being thrown is my worst marker. He will reposition his body even if the guns are separated by only a couple degrees. I know there is more to being a good marker than just calmly watching the birds, but there is a corelation with my pups. I also, find it easier to to influence my girl that sits still with subtle movements of my legs as compared to my more animated dogs.


Thanks Glen


That has not been my experience but also I don't run many opens ,,,so at that level I'm not sure which is more adventitious. I prefer animation. Its what I try to keep when I train a dog.,,,but I did have a young dog who only turned her head even if you shot a bird behind her. it was just how she was. . no training necessary. A point I would like to make is sometimes you have to train what you have. Sometimes its not worth the effort to make a dog do something a certain way when its personality keeps pulling it in another direction. You end up doing more harm than good. Sometimes settling for common ground is adventitious Not all dogs can be trained to do something a certain way. if they could they would all be contenders

Pete


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> As is true for most of life, every decision you make involves some compromise.
> 
> For example, let's say the birds go off at 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, and then 3 o'clock.
> 
> ...



I think MANY HT'rs should really pay attention to Teds post..
I wish somebody a long time ago had beaten this into my head..
Watch the pros run your HT's,, for the most part,, they have very steady dogs comparatively.

JMHDAO

Gooser


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Pete said:


> Thanks Glen
> 
> 
> That has not been my experience but also I don't run many opens ,,,so at that level I'm not sure which is more adventitious. I prefer animation. Its what I try to keep when I train a dog.,,,but I did have a young dog who only turned her head even if you shot a bird behind her. it was just how she was. . no training necessary. A point I would like to make is sometimes you have to train what you have. Sometimes its not worth the effort to make a dog do something a certain way when its personality keeps pulling it in another direction. You end up doing more harm than good. Sometimes settling for common ground is adventitious Not all dogs can be trained to do something a certain way. if they could they would all be contenders
> ...


My girl that sits still has always been that way, never moves a toenail no matter what goes on. She may break for a bird one day, but I don't believe she'll ever creep.

A friend has a dog with an A list pro and they spend time working on teaching the dog to move her head only. I've toyed with it a bit with my older dogs (now 4), but figure I have what I have. May spend more time with my current pup to encourage it from the start though. Although my current pup (started with Hillman's puppy dvd) is looking a lot like my girl. She sits very nicely as the birds are thrown.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> My girl that sits still has always been that way, never moves a toenail no matter what goes on. She may break for a bird one day, but I don't believe she'll ever creep.
> 
> A friend has a dog with an A list pro and they spend time working on teaching the dog to move her head only. I've toyed with it a bit with my older dogs (now 4), but figure I have what I have. May spend more time with my current pup to encourage it from the start though. Although my current pup (started with Hillman's puppy dvd) is looking a lot like my girl. She sits very nicely as the birds are thrown.


May be I'll try it with a couple of young dogs here. See if I like it. It will take a lot of thinking On my part to break the grooves in my thinking.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I do know that I like a dog to have a rock solid sit. I think I have had some dogs with solid sits that were good to excellent marking dogs. Could they have been better if I allowed more movement? Maybe, but then I think you pay a different kind of price when you have a loose sit on the line.


That last portion of your statement is a very insightful answer.
One more question Ted
Do you often have to align your dogs on the 2nd and 3rd bird of a multiple by either trying to straighten their head or spine. Or does a dog who has to look back over his shoulder lets say,,,come back in and totally align itself to the bird of your choice. I realize there is no absolutes. Looking for generalities I am only trying to figure out if one generally produces this product and another way generally produces that kind of product.
Thanks for your time
Pete


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Pete said:


> That last portion of your statement is a very insightful answer.
> One more question Ted
> Do you often have to align your dogs on the 2nd and 3rd bird of a multiple by either trying to straighten their head or spine. Or does a dog who has to look back over his shoulder lets say,,,come back in and totally align itself to the bird of your choice. I realize there is no absolutes. Looking for generalities I am only trying to figure out if one generally produces this product and another way generally produces that kind of product.
> Thanks for your time
> Pete



I think that if you are a student of the sport, and if you have been doing this for a while, you watch, you listen, and you try different things. I have gone through the moving thing, the sit thing, and other things, and I like what we do now the best. That may change tomorrow. My pro, Cherylon Loveland, and I are constantly re-evaluating what we do in training and in competition - that's what makes this sport so compelling to me - the constant learning and changing.

Ideally, when the dog is returning, it is cranking its head to the bird you want to get next - indicating memory of that mark. It would be wonderful if the dogs automatically returned perfectly aligned (spine head eyes) to the next mark. They rarely do. So, to me, the key is being able to influence the dogs to sit with the proper alignment, then release the bird, still maintaining the perfect alignment - all without the dog knowing that you were "influencing" it. To me, that skill is the mark of the superior handler. It is a skill that I am still struggling to accomplish on a consistent basis and one that I certainly have not mastered. I think you just need to work on it constantly and run a ton of dogs. I haven't seen the Amateur who was consistently superior at it, and have only seen a handful of pros who are. 

I think you strive to get alignment because in today's Open, if you want to win, you cannot hunt a mark. You must be perfect. The Open is getting to be like the Derby, if you want to win, you have to step on all the marks. (Yes, I know this is a generalization, but overall, I believe it to be true.) The dogs and the handlers must be that good. In order to accomplish that kind of performance, you need to optimize all conditions. To me, that means dog recognition of mark (Eckett has drills for gunner recognition) and optimal alignment.

Sometimes the dog forgets, and alignment, plus handler intervention (putting your hand in the proper direction and saying "here") sparks the dog's memory.

Sometimes, no matter what you do, the dog does not regain its memory, and you have to rely upon its training to run straight until it finds the scent cone of the area of the fall.

And when all that fails, you handle and you are - most of the time - out.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

One more thought. The modern game is all about balance. 

There are those who believe that a dog marks best when it is loose and relaxed. However, that dog that bounces all over the line in the first series must then be able to sit on a dime and take a tight back cast in order to survive the narrow key hole blind in the second series. 

So, to win, you must have a dog that is very good at many things.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

I believe that I have always trained employing Lardy's principles and one of the skills that we've worked on through drills such as wagon wheel and others was subtle movements, both handler and dog, on the line so as to best see the marks as they fall. It goes without saying that Lardy is also a proponent of a steady, obedient dog. My concern with the instances where my dog stays rooted and cranes his head to see the marks is the contorted alignment on the last bird and a send that may physically necessitate the dog to be initially off the optimal line. To me, it would seem that having the dog properly aligned for each mark helps to promote the very best marking practices. 

Ted, on those wide open set-ups where the last bird is near 180 degress from the first do you send the dog from the craned neck posture or do you, after being released, square the dog to the mark?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

This post has really got me thinking? I was taught way back and have change thing as the years have gone by. What has got me is not hand position but movement in the line. I have always used my hand to tell the dog "yes" thats the bird I want ( My send Que gets louder depending on how long the mark is ) on retrieves and to alien the dog on blinds. This is where I have a QUESTION ?? When I bring the dog to the line, I Aline them square to the field, after the last bird is shot, I will reposition my self to the go bird ( the dog dose move with me ) I drop my hand to say "yes" thats the one, wait to heir my number, then send. when the dog is out on the retrieve I will reposition the the next mark. When the dog delivers and is not aligned, I will pat my leg to get a good alignment drop my hand to say " yes" and send. I welcome a comments.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Goldenboy said:


> I believe that I have always trained employing Lardy's principles and one of the skills that we've worked on through drills such as wagon wheel and others was subtle movements, both handler and dog, on the line so as to best see the marks as they fall. It goes without saying that Lardy is also a proponent of a steady, obedient dog. My concern with the instances where my dog stays rooted and cranes his head to see the marks is the contorted alignment on the last bird and a send that may physically necessitate the dog to be initially off the optimal line. To me, it would seem that having the dog properly aligned for each mark helps to promote the very best marking practices.
> 
> Ted, on those wide open set-ups where the last bird is near 180 degress from the first do you send the dog from the craned neck posture or do you, after being released, square the dog to the mark?



When it comes to dogs, I don't think that there are any hard and fast rules that apply all the time regardless of the specific circumstances of the moment.

I have attended several of Lardy's seminars and am familiar with his position on the matter. And I have read numerous articles written by Dennis Voigt on the subject. So, I do not claim that you need to follow the method that I use. There are many different roads that lead to Mecca

For a wide open marks, say birds land at 9, 12, then 3 - with 3 being the go bird. I would align the dog at 3 (maybe 1 or 2 if I thought the spread was too wide), left foot planted even or slightly ahead of dog's right foot, pivot my body with my right foot ahead of the dog at an angle, so that the dog's head was aligned at the first bird shot (9), then move my right foot to cue the dog's head to the 12 position, etc.

I don't want to get into big philosophical arguments. Believe me, I am aware of the arguments against the method I follow. But, like I said, in most of life, and in most of dog training/handling, you pick your poison. I want a rock solid sit. Maybe my dogs would be better markers without that. But, I doubt it.

I think that for the very best pros and for amateurs who (a) train a lot; (b) have very high standards; and (c) know what they are doing, the dog that is loose on the line is not an issue. But in judging and watching pros and amateurs over the years, I have come to the conclusion that most pros and amateurs would be better off with a rock solid sit. To me, the dog that moves on the mat with the birds, is like a two sided dog - a theoretical advantage, not a practical one. 

In my opinion - in watching and judging Amateur handlers - most Amateurs would be better off with one sided dogs and with dogs that simply sat on the line. For most Amateurs, the fewer moving parts the better. The KISS principle applies.


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## Old School Labs (May 17, 2006)

I have applied Ted's method of lining up the dog to go bird, and pivot right foot to show other birds shot. I have a dog that was very antsy and too loose on the line (hence name Two Toes Tappin') and Cherylon said all that movement is going to hurt you when the dog goes out on the mark. I think I have an OK to better marking dog, and has inproved by not letting her move a toenail when birds are going off. Head movement only to follow the marks, no body movement has improved for both of us.

I try not to use my hand on middle marks, but if long retired and the dog is lost, no real idea where the bird it is at, I will put it down to que the dog the direction and memory may or may not come back, where the bird is.

Thank you Cherylon and thank you Ted.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> This post has really got me thinking? I was taught way back and have change thing as the years have gone by. What has got me is not hand position but movement in the line. I have always used my hand to tell the dog "yes" thats the bird I want ( My send Que gets louder depending on how long the mark is ) on retrieves and to alien the dog on blinds. This is where I have a QUESTION ??* When I bring the dog to the line, I Aline them square to the field, after the last bird is shot, I will reposition my self to the go bird *( the dog dose move with me ) I drop my hand to say "yes" thats the one, wait to heir my number, then send. when the dog is out on the retrieve I will reposition the the next mark. When the dog delivers and is not aligned, I will pat my leg to get a good alignment drop my hand to say " yes" and send. I welcome a comments.


Just curious if you're talking about hunt tests or trials? In hunt tests, where we're not allowed to point out the guns to the dogs, what you do is what I see (and do) most often. Ted and others are talking about field trials, where you're allowed to point out all the guns to the dog before calling for the birds.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Just curious if you're talking about hunt tests or trials? In hunt tests, where we're not allowed to point out the guns to the dogs, what you do is what I see (and do) most often. Ted and others are talking about field trials, where you're allowed to point out all the guns to the dog before calling for the birds.



I can not speak for Ted, but I do NOT agree he is talking about pointing out the guns before they are shot.

Its his routine he uses to influence the dog to look at the guns as birds are being thrown.

Hismovements are very suttle, almost to the point you really don't see much movement by him at all , but the dogs head moves.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> I can not speak for Ted, but I do NOT agree he is talking about pointing out the guns before they are shot.
> 
> Its his routine he uses to influence the dog to look at the guns as birds are being thrown.
> 
> Hismovements are very suttle, almost to the point you really don't see much movement by him at all , but the dogs head moves.


Sorry for the confusion. The poster I was responding to was talking about how when he brings his dog to the line he lines him up to the middle of the field. Which, I thought, was in response to Ted and others talking about lining the dog up at the go bird in a trial. I was just pointing out to him (truthseeker) that he may be comparing two different venues. 

I've read many times about Ted's routine and believe I understand what he's doing. I was just trying to clarify that for the poster I responded to.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Rick_C said:


> Just curious if you're talking about hunt tests or trials? In hunt tests, where we're not allowed to point out the guns to the dogs, what you do is what I see (and do) most often. Ted and others are talking about field trials, where you're allowed to point out all the guns to the dog before calling for the birds.


 Thanks, Now thing are Little more clear to me, but I am still wondering why, that taking the dog focus off their marks by moving them can be a advantage


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> Thanks, Now thing are Little more clear to me, but I am still wondering why, that taking the dog focus off their marks by moving them can be a advantage



I am not sure what you are saying here


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> Thanks, Now thing are Little more clear to me, but I am still wondering why, that taking the dog focus off their marks by moving them can be a advantage


I guess that is the question. And is why handlers like Ted work to keep their dogs butt planted and train them to just move their head to each bird as it goes down. I don't have nearly enough experience to provide an answer. But when people that have had success in the games are willing to share what they do to help them be successful, I listen. Hopefully someone can answer your question more directly.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ted mentioned earlier that a hunt on any bird in a field trial will likely get you eliminated and will almost certainly cost you a placement if you are called back. That is not true in a hunt test. You can have a small hunt on every mark in the test and at least one handle or BAH and still pass. Also, a couple degrees left or right on a 40-60 yard mark and the dog misses the bird by a couple yards and definitely hits the AOF. If you are a couple degrees off on a 300 yard mark, you are likely in no man's land and certainly not in the AOF.

It doesn't surprise me that HT folks are less inclined to be regimented in their lining the dog up, different uses of the hand, and even volume of the sends. The way I learned to send on a blind in a HT (LOUD!), would scare the heck out of the gallary at a trial. It's also common for the handler to almost grab the 1st bird as the dog wheels back by the line on the way to the second bird without even stopping. They take the "no intensive lining" rule to the extreme. But it works in a HT, so folks aren't generally concerned about the possible advantages of the FT way.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Ted mentioned earlier that a hunt on any bird in a field trial will likely get you eliminated and will almost certainly cost you a placement if you are called back. That is not true in a hunt test. You can have a small hunt on every mark in the test and at least one handle or BAH and still pass. Also, a couple degrees left or right on a 40-60 yard mark and the dog misses the bird by a couple yards and definitely hits the AOF. If you are a couple degrees off on a 300 yard mark, you are likely in no man's land and certainly not in the AOF.
> 
> It doesn't surprise me that HT folks are less inclined to be regimented in their lining the dog up, different uses of the hand, and even volume of the sends. The way I learned to send on a blind in a HT (LOUD!), would scare the heck out of the gallary at a trial. It's also common for the handler to almost grab the 1st bird as the dog wheels back by the line on the way to the second bird without even stopping. They take the "no intensive lining" rule to the extreme. But it works in a HT, so folks aren't generally concerned about the possible advantages of the FT way.


Yes in HRC I sent my dog on a very loud name or back. However, I was always careful that he was lined to the next bird (very NB) and yet I know what you are saying at least from watching HRC. If many folks did take advantage of lining their dogs appropriately to the next bird we all would be better off. A fast send off can put you into a lot of trouble quickly. My different use of the hand comes from training alone and you are on your own so you tend to develop habits as others who train alone will attest.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Thanks, Now thing are Little more clear to me, but I am still wondering why, that taking the dog focus off their marks by moving them can be a advantage


The handler gives a subtle movement and the dog straightens out to the next mark before the bird is even thrown or shot. No focus broken. I am only comparing head movement only vs dog lined up for next mark. So the only differences I see are one dog maintains total composer but is out of alignment vs dog who momentarily moves which is I believe a drawback but lines himself to the next mark and as a result will line himself up for the next mark without fiddling with the dogs alignment
So you loose one thing but may gain another.

Pete


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

With Teds routine, there is no fiddling with the dog
you come to the line an sit the dog in perfect alignment with the go bird (lbd)

The dog NEVER breaks that sit position as the birds are thrown/shot.

You mearly step up or back depending on the situation,and that handler movement influences the dog to look in that direction (head movement only)

When the go bird is finally presented, the dog is in perfect alignment to be sent for that bird,because that is where the dog was originally positioned and hasn't moved. After that bird is on the ground, hand comes down, then the send.

When the dog is returning with that mark, handler will turn and face the next bird to be retrieved,and as the dog comes to heel,it is perfectly aligned for THAT next mark. The handler repeats this for the final bird.
Very little fiddling. That's the beauty of this method.

Dog SITs and marks



Now, if I could just do it without screwing up from past learned bad habits


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> As is true for most of life, every decision you make involves some compromise.
> 
> For example, let's say the birds go off at 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, and then 3 o'clock.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post. I'm on my first dog, and I've been pondering for quite some time now how I am supposed to have a dog that obeys "sit" yet knows she is supposed to pivot...


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

And Gooser...today I made sure to count to 5 before I gave my dog a cast on a blind...it took like a year.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> With Teds routine, there is no fiddling with the dog
> you come to the line an sit the dog in perfect alignment with the go bird (lbd)
> 
> The dog NEVER breaks that sit position as the birds are thrown/shot.
> ...



This is how it is supposed to work. It is not always the case, despite what Mike says.

A few points of clarification

1. By the time a dog is three, it has been taught to look for guns. When I exit the holding blind, my dogs are looking for guns. I watch their heads and eyes to check and see if they have identified the guns before I get to the mat. If they have not, I try to orient them as we walk to the mat to the guns that they have not found. The goal - not always accomplished - it to have the dogs find the gun before I get to the mat. Why? I hate screwing around trying to get my dog oriented on the mat. See point 2. 

2. When I get to the mat, I try to orient the dog in the alignment that I selected before I left the holding blind. My goal is to have the dog sit the way I want it aligned, and not fuss with a lot of commands. If the dog does not sit where I want it, I move it with the command "heel" - meaning move your front feet. Again, the target is to have as little fussing as possible and promoting the rock solid sit. Look, the more you say "heel, heel, etc." the more you teach the dog movement on the mat, not sitting on the mat. I want the dog to know that when it hits the mat, it sits. End of story. 

3. If the dogs have identified the guns, and I am certain that we do not need to emphasize a hard to see gun or bird, then I will say "here" meaning head movement to orient the dog's head to the first bird shot, say "Good." Then call for the birds. I do not spend much time on the mat showing the dogs guns.  

Why not: 

a) I want the dogs to carry the responsibility of finding the guns. A good dog wants to find guns and has the eyesight to find them. I believe that the ones that don't quickly find most guns suffer from inferior eyesight, inferior desire or both. These dogs don't stay around long. I find homes for them that are more suitable for their talent and inclinations. 

I will help the dogs when necessary. But, I want my help to be the exception and not the rule.

b) I think all the movement and commands most Amateurs give "heel, here, long, easy, mark" etc. is just noise. The more you talk, the more you teach the dog what you are saying is meaningless. I am not an "easy" "long" etc. guy.

c) I think that the more you screw around on the line, the more your dog loses focus and intensity. I want the dogs quivering with excitement, ready for launch. 

I want my dogs to know that when we get to the mat, things are going to happen - and soon. When you go to a National - especially a National Am - and the judges are pushed for time, and tell you in advance that you have so much time to set your dogs, you appreciate a system, where you are regularly moving on a fast clock. The dogs become accustomed in training and in competition to your timing. 

*In my universe, less is more.*

This procedure, like any, has its exceptions. 

If there is a hard bird to find, I work it. 

But, why would I want to spend time showing my dog the flyer? My dogs are always looking for the flyer - I wouldn't have a dog that didn't. I don't need to emphasize a bird that they want. So why spend precious time showing them a flyer, saying "Mark, mark" giving them what they want, only to have to say "Heel, heel" to have them look at the bird you want. It is madness. But, handlers do it all the time. Again, less is more.

Save your communication for when you need it. Just like you should not nag "sit, sit", you should not nag "mark, mark." 

Teach your dogs that when you come to the line, you are coming to work and it is all business. 

I know others have different systems. This is mine, and it works for me and my dogs.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks Ted
Lots of really great wisdom applied in your posts

Pete


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> With Teds routine, there is no fiddling with the dog
> you come to the line an sit the dog in perfect alignment with the go bird (lbd)
> 
> The dog NEVER breaks that sit position as the birds are thrown/shot.
> ...


OK Thanks, now I understand it just the handler that moves not the dog. One more thing, when coming to the line you would line-up on the go bird gun station. I just ask this because the bird has not be thrown yet. Yes I have only done hunt test, but may in the future try a trial and want the best for my dogs


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> OK Thanks, now I understand it just the handler that moves not the dog. One more thing, when coming to the line you would line-up on the go bird gun station. I just ask this because the bird has not be thrown yet. Yes I have only done hunt test, but may in the future try a trial and want the best for my dogs



Where you align your dog depends on what system you us. The way I do it, 9 times out of 10, I line the dog to the go bird, then push or pull the dog's head to the first bird shot (the feet remain stationary).


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Pete said:


> Thanks Ted
> Lots of really great wisdom applied in your posts
> 
> Pete



x2
Very cool Sir.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Thank you for taking the time Ted. Always enjoy your insights.

Rick


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted said earlier

" This is how it is supposed to work. It is not always the case, despite what Mike says"



I am serious! If you watch Ted run his dogs,there is very little messin around at the line.in fact to an untrained mere mortals eye,it seems to work exactly as planned,and really tough set ups are made to look like child's play by his dogs performances.

It truly is amazing to watch. Ted is being VERY humble.

Gooser (aka Mike)


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## dianaricaf (Sep 7, 2012)

I enjoy the insight, thanks for the taking the time posting here.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

This is the most powerful tread yet. Thanks Ted and everyone.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

How I'm going to line a dog depends on two things.

1. Evaluating the test
2. Knowing the dog

I can't tell you how I'm going to line the dog up tomorrow until I see the test. Every test has a key bird. I want the dog to focus as much on the key bird as possible. Rarely do I worry about the flyer, even if it is the key bird. Coming to the line the dogs are going to see that bird. Primary importance is control and focus. The dog must be steady and sit where I tell him too. Most go birds are not the key bird in a test however hunting a go bird is sure death in field a trial and wastes memory time in both FT/HT's. How and where I sit the dog requires flexibility on my part and a dog that does theirs...

/Paul


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> How I'm going to line a dog depends on two things.
> 
> 1. Evaluating the test
> 2. Knowing the dog
> ...


I like that you used the word "rarely" vs. "never". The first (and so far only) qual we ran, I almost screwed us (and possibly did screw us out of a placement) when I didn't show my dog the flyer. It was a land (mostly) triple. 1st bird down was the long retired at 12 o'clock at about 230 yds out through meadow of tall grass then up a rocky ridge to the bird. 2nd bird was at between 2 and 3 o'clock. The flyer was way left at about 8 o'clock. The gunners were on a hillside and threw/shot the bird out over a swampy, tall grass area down below at maybe 100 yd from the line. Wind was fairly strong from the right and slightly behind us. The previous year we crashed and burned twice in master tests because he went flyer crazy and forgot the other birds. We'd worked hard on this and it hadn't been a problem in training but I was still nervous about it creeping up again, especially since I was already nervous about running our first qual and those 4 flyer gunners were very inviting standing out on that hillside.

I work hard on control from the holding blind to the line. I attended/worked at many HT's and FT's for 2 yrs before I ran a dog, and handlers that went to the line saying "heel! heel! heel! Here!! heel! heel! HERE! HEEL!! while their dog was 3 feet in front of them the whole way to the line was like finger nails on a chalkboard to me and I swore I would never have a dog that did that. When leaving the blind, I leave the dog on sit and I back up away from the blind and to which ever side I want to exit from I then call my dog to heel, make him sit for 2 or 3 seconds and then heel to the line. 

Anyway, I wanted him to find the long retired and right bird right away (many dogs had treated the hillside as a barrier and got lost way left when they winded the flyer station) and focus on those while we went to the line, hopefully without seeing the flyer. As he came to heel, spinning away from the flyer, he immediately saw the right bird and during the couple seconds I had him at sit he found the long retired. We then went to the line and I sat him pointed at the long bird. The first bird went down, then the right and since he still didn't know there was another bird way to our left and slightly behind us, he didn't swing his head (and I didn't step up on him) to the flyer until he heard the shots. The bird had turned into the wind and fell inverted. Because of this he only saw it for part of the downward arc. Between tall reeds and the inverted flight of the bird, we didn't see the last 3 or 4 ft of the fall before it hit the wet, marshy area below. 

I knew my plan to de-emphasize the flyer backfired when it was obvious he didn't get a good look at it because he immediately swung back to the right bird. I had to push him back to the flyer, got him locked in and sent him. The bird was in running water with tall grass beyond some tall reeds and he missed it by about 4 ft and had a huge hunt deep (where the bird would normally land if thrown angle back) when he got caught up in the scent of where most of the birds were landing and where the feathers were blowing to. He eventually got it, stepped on the right bird and had 2 small loops at the base of the hill before pushing up to the long retired bird. Had many of the other dogs not had so much trouble with the retired, we probably wouldn't have been called back at all. As it was he did really nice work the rest of the way and Jammed.

Ted said "less is more". What I learned that day is that "less" doesn't mean "none".


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Bumped for guy asking for link to this thread... and so I can print it out for my files!


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

_I think that for the very best pros and for amateurs who (a) train a lot; (b) have very high standards; and (c) know what they are doing, the dog that is loose on the line is not an issue. But in judging and watching pros and amateurs over the years, I have come to the conclusion that most pros and amateurs would be better off with a rock solid sit. To me, the dog that moves on the mat with the birds, is like a two sided dog - a theoretical advantage, not a practical one. 

In my opinion - in watching and judging Amateur handlers - most Amateurs would be better off with one sided dogs and with dogs that simply sat on the line. For most Amateurs, the fewer moving parts the better. The KISS principle applies. 

_Ted, for running HT's and FTs, I can agree. But for hunting, absolutely not. 

I run tests to get feedback on my training, and I train to have an outstanding hunting partner. Having an outstanding hunting partner requires Fido to be two-sided. I'm training and running two-sided. Will I use two-sided in every test? No; only when it's called for. Wil I use two-sided in every hunt scenario? No; only when it's called for. 

For my use, hand down predominately signifies "good" as in you have a good line to the blind; it's also used to help find a mark that I can tell fido has forgotten or needs help in getting a better line. Lining the dog involves the hand but more important is my body/leg position to pull or push fido to the correct line (for blind or mark).

As a ready cue, one doesn't have to use the hand down technique. A verbal cue can suffice as well. But dogs can lose sight or hearing ability over time so both are valuable. And you might have loud wind or other noise, or sun-in-the-face, so both a verbal and physical cue are good to have and use.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am not persuaded. I have watched more than my share of handlers over the years. A few are competent on both sides. The vast majority are not competent, although they think they are. Maybe you are the exception.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I am not persuaded. I have watched more than my share of handlers over the years. A few are competent on both sides. The vast majority are not competent, although they think they are. Maybe you are the exception.


I don't think Phil is saying he is competent at handling on both sides. Sounds like he's just saying that if he's bad at it, he wants it exposed in the test, so that he can train more on it and improve for hunting season where it really counts (for him).


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## hawker (Jul 3, 2012)

I use the hand on blinds to reinforce the direction I want him to go, and on multibles marks if I know he needs a little help on the direction. Never use it on the go bird.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

captainjack said:


> I don't think Phil is saying he is competent at handling on both sides. Sounds like he's just saying that if he's bad at it, he wants it exposed in the test, so that he can train more on it and improve for hunting season where it really counts (for him).



I get it. I am saying why run if you can't walk. Better to have one good side than 2 poor sides. A theoretical advantage is meaningless


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> I get it. I am saying why run if you can't walk. Better to have one good side than 2 poor sides. A theoretical advantage is meaningless


Don't disagree at all. But the practical advantage during hunting is a real advantage I want and need (when the scenario calls for it as it has a few times over the last 5 years). 

Captain Jack is correct. I'm not competent to the level I'd like to be at, but I'm good enough to know when I need my lab on one side or the other during a test. Most of the time she is run from my left side.

In fact, there's only two times I recall during Finished tests that I switched my lab from the left side (non-shooting shoulder side) to be at my right side: once to help line up for the first bird down on a water triple (I read her that she didn't really remember the mark plus I thought she didn't get a good look at the mark when it came out) and; the second time to line her up on a blind that was running up a hill (sloping upward on our right).

I've heard it said that Dave Smith doesn't agree with Lardy about two-sided healing (and consequent sending from either side). He's like Ted in thinking there's too much moment and unnecessary confusion being created for both handler and dog.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I am not persuaded. I have watched more than my share of handlers over the years. A few are competent on both sides. The vast majority are not competent, although they think they are. Maybe you are the exception.


_WHOA!

Since when did we want to emulate the vast majority in Field Trials? I want to emulate the elite few with unparalled records. Like those with clients and handlers with 24 National wins, record # Finalists and tons of success. 

So we strive to be better! Somedays I wish my dogs would sit better but judges judge the all-around dog not just the sit. Achieving zero movement has liabilities for many dogs. 

If a technique is hard to do but has advantages I am persuaded to pursue it. My reward has been training 9 Champions including 3 National wins.

All techniques have Pros and Cons and you work to amplify the Pros and weaken the Cons. 

With respect to this thread, this goes for moving on line between birds, how and when you put your hand down and two-sided usage. 

It is contrary to dog focus and head-swinging to never move their feet, 
it is advantageous to use simple discreet cues with the hand and,
it is powerful to have a full repetoire of being able to communicate with your dog as in two-sidedness.

Let's be clear that techniques advocated for some (many?) may not be the best techniques for all but they still may be better techniques!

_


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I understand how Ted handles his dogs on line and I thing it is a good way.
However, there are drawbacks to solely using this method to the exclusion of others. 
Different opinion, not argument.
Take a quad with an out of order flyer for example. 
Dog on left, Flyer on left, big swing to right for last mark, a big hard to see punch bird in shadows.
So with dog locked in on a cock pheasant the guns unloaded on that sailed a good ways handler is in a tough spot needing to pull his dog towards him, away from the flyer and through the whole test with the two middle guns still standing. Often what you see is frenzied scraping of handlers feet on the mat trying to pull dog off of flyer.
Conversely, if flyer was on right you might actually see handler literally step out in front of dogs face to push him towards the punch bird.

Another school of thought is that a dog can move while in the sit position and never violate sit. You can sit a dog and pivot L/R heel or here through 360deg with dog's nads dragging the ground the whole time. Never leaves sit while pivoting, just ends up facing a different direction when you stop moving. Dog is trained to be aware of your exact body position and to align himself with you if you do move while looking out and identifying the guns at the same time. IF you don't move your feet or pivot L/R you can still finely tweak the dogs head or eyes by using subtle knee movement as described.

PS,
Putting a hand in to send has nothing to do with lining. Lining and it's cues take place before sticking your hand in. Once dog is settled in, gaze fixed at the right spot, the hand is the final cue to dog not to advert his gaze from where he is looking right then. If you put your hand down and dog looks off, hand comes back and you work on dog some more.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Very new to FT, but in HRC two sided dog was very helpful. I know from even training to day on blinds it will be advantageous to run two sided in FT. Anything you do you gotta work at and be consistent and fair to your dog. Whatever works for you stick with it but be able to recognize if it is not working be flexible to change based on sound advice. JMHO


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

For a wide open marks, say birds land at 9, 12, then 3 - with 3 being the go bird. I would align the dog at 3 (maybe 1 or 2 if I thought the spread was too wide), left foot planted even or slightly ahead of dog's right foot, pivot my body with my right foot ahead of the dog at an angle, so that the dog's head was aligned at the first bird shot (9), then move my right foot to cue the dog's head to the 12 position, etc.

Ted, would you mind to terribly much to take the time to explain how you would align the dog with the order reversed and the dog being a left sided dog? The bird at 3 is 150 yds, the bird at 12 is a long punch bird at 300 yds and the bird at 9 is the flyer at 75 yds. 

This example is my only reason to have a 2 sided dog. I find that it is easier to push and release to the go bird than pull. There isn't a more helpless feeling IMO than having a dog swing off the 3 to the 9 because when that happens you know you are F'd!!!!! Pardon my appreviate French.

Thanks


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> _
> 
> Since when did we want to emulate the vast majority in Field Trials? I want to emulate the elite few with unparalled records. Like those with clients and handlers with 24 National wins, record # Finalists and tons of success.
> 
> _



All well and good, but when you watch Amateur handlers, what percentage do you find are actually proficient on both sides?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

2. When I get to the mat, I try to orient the dog in the alignment that I selected before I left the holding blind. My goal is to have the dog sit the way I want it aligned, and not fuss with a lot of commands. If the dog does not sit where I want it, I move it with the command "heel" - meaning move your front feet. Again, the target is to have as little fussing as possible and promoting the rock solid sit. Look, the more you say "heel, heel, etc." the more you teach the dog movement on the mat, not sitting on the mat. I want the dog to know that when it hits the mat, it sits. End of story. 

3. If the dogs have identified the guns, and I am certain that we do not need to emphasize a hard to see gun or bird, then I will say "here" meaning head movement to orient the dog's head to the first bird shot, say "Good." Then call for the birds. I do not spend much time on the mat showing the dogs guns.



When judging there isn't a better seat in the house to learn from some of the better Pro's. The word SIT seems to be a very popular cue to get compliance while the handler is trying to point out a longish station. What I mean is, if the dogs eyes keep wondering one way or the other the handler will say "Sit" right up to the point that he has the dogs focus on a tough bird. 

Ted, do you find this to be true?

Thanks


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> All well and good, but when you watch Amateur handlers, what percentage do you find are actually proficient on both sides?


Those percentages don't influence my efforts. I don't have the data. However, I do know that a lot of Amateurs are not proficient on one side. Perhaps the real problem is not two-sidedness!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I do know that a lot of Amateurs are not proficient on one side. Perhaps the real problem is not two-sidedness!


Uh Oh! I think I've been outed.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am crunching out the work tonight, so do not have the time for extended discussion.

As I have said before, I think that I believe that there are significant advantages to having a two sided dog. So, I gladly concede that there are competitive reasons to have a two sided dogs. 

But, to have a good two sided dog requires a significant amount of time and energy. I train two times a week with my dogs and pay the price at work all week. If I were able to train more frequently, I would consider having a two sided dog. But, I can't. That's my reality, so I have a one sided dog.

When I retire, and can train 4-6 days a week, I will have a two sided dog.

But, I think that very few people have the ability, competence, and time to train and handle a two sided dog competently. 

You can aspire to emulate the very best, but you have to have the time and resources to do so. Reality sucks.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> I am crunching out the work tonight, so do not have the time for extended discussion.
> 
> As I have said before, I think that I believe that there are significant advantages to having a two sided dog. So, I gladly concede that there are competitive reasons to have a two sided dogs.
> 
> ...


Yes when you work and have other responsibilities you do what you can do!!!Great thread!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Someone very experienced gave me some advice and recomendations.

They asked me If I thought it not confusing to the dog to once it gets to the mat or line, to let it move THIS time, or in THAT situation then harshly correct the dog if it moves when you DO want the dog perfectly motionless. They suggesed a routine that would have the dog and handler relaxed at the line, and Both of them confident, not worrying about movement.

I was asked if I was prepared to go the extra mile for the training resposiblity, of a two sided dog, or a dog that moves with you from bird to bird. I was told it seemed to them that I PERSONALLY had my hands full, just remembering the basics. Their recomendation was that Most dogs in Most situations mark well when seated ,not moving, and focusing, and with as little movement by the handler as possible.

That advice seems to make perfect sense to this guy.


As far as hunting goes..
In many situations, is the dog not positioned at a remote sit location outside the blind? Is the dog placed in a covered "Hut"? How many of you have the dog actually sitting next to you while You sit on a bucket?
Is the dog down in a Pit with you, only required to run blinds after the birds are down?? So, in all these cases, isnt the dog that "sits" QUIETLY not dancin around, still the best tool?? Remember,, HUNTING marks..... 35 -40 yrds average, usually fallin from the sky at pretty much the same time.



I agree with Ted, and think a dog that just sits, and does his job of marking, is the less complicated way to approch this situation, for both dog and handler.For MOST occations, I believe your bases will be well covered.
I think Tests and Hunting are different wether we like it or not, and I believe the tests are the most demanding on both participants.
Ft's are in my opinion, the extream end of the spectrum, and showcase the remarkable abilties of both dog and handler.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Wade said:


> When judging there isn't a better seat in the house to learn from some of the better Pro's. The word SIT seems to be a very popular cue to get compliance while the handler is trying to point out a longish station. What I mean is, if the dogs eyes keep wondering one way or the other the handler will say "Sit" right up to the point that he has the dogs focus on a tough bird.
> 
> Ted, do you find this to be true?
> 
> Thanks


Not Ted, and I've only judged a handful of major stakes, but I have also been fascinated by the use of "sit" by some as the all encompassing command to get the dog to focus or curb excess/unwanted movement. I have kind of had the feeling of "sit" as indirect pressure. 

And, on the subject of alignment, I am clearly in the Lardy camp of subtle, trained dog/handler movements on the line as not impacting a solid sit and a very steady dog. I can't wrap my head around setting a dog up on the flyer and only influencing it's head to watch, and accurately mark, key birds.


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