# jr test how would you judge this



## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

just a quick disclaimer this was not my dog and I thought the judges acted correctly 1st bird down on land series about 70 yrds. bird is down judges call for the dog, dog goes out about 10 yrds short of the actual bird the dog suddenly stops reaches down and picks up something and comes back to the line. but no one sees anything in her mouth the handler reaches in her mouth and pulls out a tiny duckling it was dead. the judges talked it over and gave the dog a rerun which I thought was fair. the dog goes out and hunts what she thought was the old fall and won't go past it so is dropped. the handler told them the dog picked up one bird in the area of the fall so the dog should be credited with a retrieve. I thought the judges handled it as good as they could and the dog on the rerun should have picked up the new bird


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Was the dog re-run immediately or did the dog go back three dogs?


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

reran immediately. I guess that might have made a difference


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Pat Addis

If it were your dog, what would you have liked considering this is supposed to be evaluating a JH dog?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

OK, dog gets shuffled for a re-run, judges check area for other dead ducklings, fix it so that the chance of this happening again is reduced.


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## skyy (Mar 25, 2014)

Handler Error........... Handler should of asked to go back 3 or more dogs........now if the handler asked and the judges didn't let him then shame on the judges.......but 9 times out of 10 most judges will give you the option, but its up to the handler to make the right call.....


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

I would have to pass the dog on this retrieve. If there is a shot flyer in a test and the dog returns with just the head, it "returned with a bird" If the dog goes out to the area and steals one from the bird boy, the dog has "returned with a bird" He did his job.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't believe a re-run was necessary. The dog did it's job, it went out to the fall area, found a bird and brought it back to the handler. The judges had 3 more chances to judge the dog performance.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Hum? Asking Jr dog to rerun through spot where they just found little duckling? 
Not good for dog, not good for judges, handler gets one of the many bad breaks they'll face over the years.
Move on to next event,...


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

It's hard to say what is right without seeing the actual situation as it transpired. It may be the correct call to flat out drop the dog, then again they might need to scrap the test setup, move to a different area and re-run all the dogs. You kind of have to be there to see first hand what's going on.


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

Breck said:


> Hum? Asking Jr dog to rerun through spot where they just found little duckling?
> Not good for dog, not good for judges, handler gets one of the many bad breaks they'll face over the years.
> Move on to next event,...


If you are running a Junior test and you send your dog out to retrieve the first mark and fido returns with a bird that was left on the ground from a previous dog, wouldn't you expect to pass that mark? Same difference here. No, it wasn't exactly what the judges wanted to see, but it is the responsibility of the judges to mark sure the area is safe and clean.


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## Todd Herderhurst (Nov 7, 2012)

What if this is a new handler who does not know they could ask to move back a few dogs to rerun? I'm new and would not know to ask this. The judges on the other hand should understand the situation and make the right decision. 

If the dog were hunting all over the place and just happened to stumble upon a duckling somewhere out there and bring it back, that's one thing. But this dog found a duck pretty much in the area of the fall and brought it back. It should have got a pass on this mark and moved on to the next ones.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

gdgnyc said:


> Pat Addis
> 
> If it were your dog, what would you have liked considering this is supposed to be evaluating a JH dog?


I thought at the time it was the correct call but I have to rethink this because of running immediately without going back in line. I also hadn't thought about just bringing back the head as some one else said . I think this was about the 3rd dog to run so it's hard to imagine no other dog found it. I wasn't close to the line so I couldn't see if it had been dead for long or if the dog killed it. in all fairness to the judges I doubt they had ever seen this before so I'm sure it hadn't been discussed before the test or after it was set up. other than that odd thing the rest of the test was pretty well thought out


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Breck said:


> Hum? Asking Jr dog to rerun through spot where they just found little duckling?
> Not good for dog, not good for judges, handler gets one of the many bad breaks they'll face over the years.
> Move on to next event,...


What he said.
Live and learn.


If you rerun, shuffle back!


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

Christine Maddox said:


> If you are running a Junior test and you send your dog out to retrieve the first mark and fido returns with a bird that was left on the ground from a previous dog, wouldn't you expect to pass that mark? Same difference here. .


I had a friend that this happened to that was similar at a MH Test. Dog went for the Mark, brought back a dead bird that wasn't the same species of bird that was being used in the test. Judges discussed it and gave him/his dog their pass since the dog was in the AOF. Judges admitted that they missed that bird during their "walk through".


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I think that it demands quite a bit above what should be expected at the Junior level to send a dog through an "old fall" that it just retrieved a bird from. Whether it goes back three dogs or not.

And if the duckling actually was found within what I would consider the AOF for that mark, I don't see how a second "successful" attempt could be judged as a mark, vs a test of the dog's willingness to return to, and diligently hunt, an old fall.

However, I wasn't there and didn't see it happen. I can only picture what happened.


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

Christine Maddox said:


> If the dog goes out to the area and steals one from the bird boy, the dog has "returned with a bird" He did his job.


Can you elaborate on this "example" a bit? Are you inferring that should the dog go into the blind that's concealing the gunner and take a duck from him and return with it...that he's done his job?



Christine Maddox said:


> .. but it is the responsibility of the judges to mark sure the area is safe and clean.


So the judges are now supposed to be able to find baby ducklings that might be hiding in their test?


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## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

i take it this was not a flyer. I don't really have an opinion on how dogs are judged. There is far too much room for "interpretation" of the rules for me to be critical of the way someone interprets the rules. It's like me trying to interpret the way one man feels about a his fiancé, who weights over 500 pounds and eats two packages of bacon for breakfast each morning. There is just too much room for opinion. 

I don't like sending a dog twice to the same fall, but this can happen in re-runs. What I don't understand is why a Junior level dog will not pick up a bird even at an old fall. If I had sent my Junior dogs to the same fall more than once, they would have almost always picked up a bird. 

Having said this, 10 yards from the original fall is darn close to the mark so I can see crediting duckling. I can see the re-run as a very fair alternative. I can also see dropping a dog who does not do the test on the re-run. I'm glad I'm no judge. I far prefer objective decisions especially when I know that my decisions are going to let folks down. Failing a dog would be as tough on me as having to tell my best friend that his fiancé can't come over to the house anymore cause we don't have furniture sturdy enough to support her since her weight has just exceeded the structural rating by a tad.....or, sorry buddy, but we only have two 25 pound turkey this year and ten pies - we'll catch up next year. There is no easy way to tell someone that their dog failed.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

If I were judging that, the dog went out and picked up a duck, albeit, a tiny duck, he did what he was supposed to do...that's on me, as a judge and I would give the benefit of the doubt to the dog...if it were a dead mouse, we would have an issue...=) If the dog has issues with marking, they would get sorted out on subsequent marks. In this instance, a rerun doesn't do anyone any good...the dog or the judges....jmho.


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

Darin Westphal said:


> Can you elaborate on this "example" a bit? Are you inferring that should the dog go into the blind that's concealing the gunner and take a duck from him and return with it...that he's done his job?
> 
> 
> 
> So the judges are now supposed to be able to find baby ducklings that might be hiding in their test?


Unfortunately, as a judge I have seen dogs steal birds too many times from the bird boys. Normally speaking, the bird holding blinds are in proximity to the AOF. and YES, I would pass that dog even though it was not the bird he watched fall. His job at the junior level is to go out and retrieve a bird from the area of the fall. If it is a stolen bird, a duckling, or one previously left on the ground, is not the issue. Rules and Regs:"The ability to mark accurately is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, used the wind, follows a strong cripple, and takes direction from its handler is a great value" "Upon finding the game, a dog shall quickly pick it up and return briskly to its handler. .....Upon returning to the line, a dog shall deliver the bird promptly and tenderly to its handler" 
So.....in this situation, fido left the line on a mission directly to the area of the fall, found a bird, retrieved it, and continued back to the handler to deliver to hand. 
Stealing a bird from the bird boy blind is NOT what judges want to see; but, it does happen. Again, Fido has done his job of retrieving a bird from the area of the fall. He certainly has some issues and the score should reflect that. Normally speaking, he will take himself out for poor marking before the test is over. 
Judges must be diligent inspecting the grounds for all hazards and debris.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

pat addis said:


> just a quick disclaimer this was not my dog and I thought the judges acted correctly 1st bird down on land series about 70 yrds. bird is down judges call for the dog, dog goes out about 10 yrds short of the actual bird the dog suddenly stops reaches down and picks up something and comes back to the line. but no one sees anything in her mouth the handler reaches in her mouth and pulls out a tiny duckling it was dead. the judges talked it over and gave the dog a rerun which I thought was fair. the dog goes out and hunts what she thought was the old fall and won't go past it so is dropped. the handler told them the dog picked up one bird in the area of the fall so the dog should be credited with a retrieve. I thought the judges handled it as good as they could and the dog on the rerun should have picked up the new bird


Judges erred. Field was not clean. Dog went to AOF and made a retrieve. Sending again was a poor decision and IMO the wrong action. No different than coming up with a stray bumper or body part. Dog and handler got the windshield.


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

Yep would agree that if it is as described by the OP then dog should have moved on with no re-run.


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## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

It's all in interpretation of the test. That's the difficulty of judging and the risk associated with participating in subjective evaluations. I ran a master test this past weekend with a triple. Two down the tree line and the go bird, a flyer off to the left followed by a water bind further to the left and outside the falls. After the walkup, I sent my dog on the flyer. Now, granted tests are supposed to be hunting situation and I've never seen anyone shooting flyers 150 yards away, but that was the test. My flyer never cleared the tree line, probably because the crew missed the preceding flyer and did not want to miss two in a row. By shooting quickly, the distance was more difficult for the dog to judge. My dog saw all three marks. She zeroed in on the flyer so I sent her without screwing around. She is not the fastest dog off the line, which can be good, and seems to be common with British labs. She headed directly at the go bird, but jerked back around as she picked up something on the way. Perhaps it was an old fall or drag back. After doing multiple hot laps around this smell, she peeled off to the right side of the fall area and established a second hunt. Had she started on the left side, she would have picked up the bird. After more hot laps, she came back in briefly, stuck her nose into the ground because she definitely had a beat on something. Then she headed back to the left side, went behind the gunner station, back out to the right, picked up the bird, and came back. I was pretty worried because it was a long hunt, but the judge remarked that she'd "not burned that much memory". I then sent her on the second mark, which was a short bird down the tree line. She picked that up without fan fare. Then I sent her on the long mark down the tree line, which was angle slightly out of the tree line from a blind hidden by tree limbs. Incidentally, they hid all of the blinds with tree limbs. About 20 yds from the fall, she did one quick circle, then went back, circled to the right and picked up the bird. We ran the blind from a point to the left. I sent the dog angled toward the water and a little left of the line or just a touch fat. She took a poor initial line. I stopped her and sent her back across the line, stopped her again, and gave her a straight left hand back. The dog went through the running water, back onto land and then straight into the water. From there I lost sight of her because the grass was taller than her head. I did not see her swimming straight back. Instead, she veered toward the right and up the shoreline, which angled out. In other words, she swam angled back rather than straight back as she'd entered the water. She popped out and onto land up the shoreline about 10 yards from the blind (five to the right and five too short). She was three handles to this point. There was no getting back into the water on this one as she was at the base of the small point already. I gave her a left angle back and she picked up the bird on a final whistle. 

As I returned to the gallery from the line, the guy who trains me told me that it was a good test and that the he was glad that I'd let the dog work out the flyer mark. Other than a long hunt, it was a good test. However, I did not make the call back. 

When I asked the judges what I should have done, both said the hunt was too long. One said my dog never got into the water and refused to go in. I had a wet shammy in the truck, but never brought that up because I was pretty sure the judge just confused me with another dog that failed. One said that any time you see a judge drawing circles on their score sheet, it's a bad sign. One said they did not like the way I ran my dog. I sent the dog too soon on the go bird, I used a louder send on the short second mark, and a softer send on the long third mark down the tree line. The judge was right. The long hunt had really flustered me and crimped my style. 

The rules say that a dog that goes to the fall, finds the bird unaided will be scored appreciably higher than a bird that is handled to the bird. Both judges failed me because I did not handle rather than let the dog work it out in a prolonged hunt. My dog never left the area and never switched. She was simply distracted on the way and took a bit of time to work it out. When I asked around, one trainer told me that she established two hunts and after the second hunt, I should have handled rather than letting her go to 4 locations (short, right long, short again, left long). That makes for a good billfish spread, but not a good hunt. Anyway, it was judges discretion. I was proud of my girl for working it out and I'm not sure I'd run the test differently despite the good advice. The only thing I wish I'd done is stop her at the shoreline and give her a straight back so I could have forced her off the shoreline so I could have seen her and handled her in the water. 

The bottom line is that if you pay the price of admission, you have to abide by the rules and decisions of those taking the time out of their busy schedule to judge you. 

The rules also say something about judging you from the point the test was stopped forward in a re-run. In this case, the dog just needed to finish the final 10 yards. Dog did not do it. Interpretation is everything in this case. There is no absolute right or wrong. There is only opinion. I'm always envious of the dogs who take opinion out of the equation because they just do the test without at flaw. That's the goal. No gray area.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Then, of course there's always the regulations to consider .................. (7) When encountering wild birds, rabbits, or other game, the working dog should ignore such distractions or be sufficiently under control to be handled to the fall. Judges shall decide, in advance, how they will deal with this situation. Found on page 36 of the regulations.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

paul young said:


> Then, of course there's always the regulations to consider .................. (7) When encountering wild birds, rabbits, or other game, the working dog should ignore such distractions or be sufficiently under control to be handled to the fall. Judges shall decide, in advance, how they will deal with this situation. Found on page 36 of the regulations.


And that is your expectation of a JH dog? Not many JH dogs I know of handle...I think that rule was put in place to make a clear expectation that dogs chasing butterflies will be dropped....;-)


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

paul young said:


> Then, of course there's always the regulations to consider .................. (7) When encountering wild birds, rabbits, or other game, the working dog should ignore such distractions or be sufficiently under control to be handled to the fall. Judges shall decide, in advance, how they will deal with this situation. Found on page 36 of the regulations.


Strange...the "wild" bird in this case is a duckling...a duck.. For goodness sake, that is what he was sent after..A duck!! And he is suppose to ignore it? Guys, it is a JUNIOR test.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Christine Maddox said:


> Unfortunately, as a judge I have seen dogs steal birds too many times from the bird boys. Normally speaking, the bird holding blinds are in proximity to the AOF. and YES, I would pass that dog even though it was not the bird he watched fall. His job at the junior level is to go out and retrieve a bird from the area of the fall. If it is a stolen bird, a duckling, or one previously left on the ground, is not the issue. Rules and Regs:"The ability to mark accurately is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, used the wind, follows a strong cripple, and takes direction from its handler is a great value" "Upon finding the game, a dog shall quickly pick it up and return briskly to its handler. .....Upon returning to the line, a dog shall deliver the bird promptly and tenderly to its handler"
> So.....in this situation, fido left the line on a mission directly to the area of the fall, found a bird, retrieved it, and continued back to the handler to deliver to hand.
> Stealing a bird from the bird boy blind is NOT what judges want to see; but, it does happen. Again, Fido has done his job of retrieving a bird from the area of the fall. He certainly has some issues and the score should reflect that. Normally speaking, he will take himself out for poor marking before the test is over.
> Judges must be diligent inspecting the grounds for all hazards and debris.


Saw a dog get a placement in a derby after stealing a bird out of the bucket.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

rboudet said:


> Saw a dog get a placement in a derby after stealing a bird out of the bucket.


Gotta admire the youngsters wherewithal...

So and so's fc afc ferris bueller...


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

rboudet said:


> Saw a dog get a placement in a derby after stealing a bird out of the bucket.


Dang...if that's legit...WOW!


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

rboudet said:


> Saw a dog get a placement in a derby after stealing a bird out of the bucket.


OP...there's the judges you are looking for....


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I cannot believe that any judge's expectations of what is required of a dog at the junior level of testing would be so low that retrieving a dead duckling would be considered acceptably completing the test.

I would have given the dog the benefit of the doubt and re-run the dog. If it failed to complete that retrieve, it would fail the test. 

Junior is not a puppy test. It is supposed to discover and reward the dogs that can accomplish the most basic retrieving skills that are useful to the hunter.

The example given is a single retrieve of an adult dead mallard. A dog retrieving carrion instead of the gamebird it was sent for is useless to a hunter.

To those with a problem with the regulation I quoted, contact your RHTAC representative AND HAVE IT CHANGED.-Paul


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## boyetthunter (Jul 21, 2009)

At a master test a couple weeks ago. 1st series land triple in high grass with flyer as go bird. Dog put on hunt about 30 yards deep of flyer and picked up an orange bumper someone had left out there while training. He was carried to the second, which I believe was the correct thing to do.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

paul young said:


> I cannot believe that any judge's expectations of what is required of a dog at the junior level of testing would be so low that retrieving a dead duckling would be considered acceptably completing the test.
> 
> I would have given the dog the benefit of the doubt and re-run the dog. If it failed to complete that retrieve, it would fail the test.
> 
> ...



I'm no dog, but I'd imagine that a dead duckling would probably smell a lot like a dead duck. And you know, as well as I do...a lot of the ducks used at a hunt test *are* dead carrion. If we are talking dead mice, or a dead fish, or a dead frog, then I agree with your argument, whole heartedly. Now, had it been a flyer, well...that changes things and I would have a tend to agree with your assessment.

For the record, the judges in this case did act within the rules. They are the ones who can decide whether or not a rerun is to be granted. They chose to rerun, and the dog failed the test in the rerun...this was within the letter of the rules.


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

paul young said:


> I cannot believe that any judge's expectations of what is required of a dog at the junior level of testing would be so low that retrieving a dead duckling would be considered acceptably completing the test.
> 
> I would have given the dog the benefit of the doubt and re-run the dog. If it failed to complete that retrieve, it would fail the test.
> 
> ...


Well said Paul!


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

paul young said:


> I cannot believe that any judge's expectations of what is required of a dog at the junior level of testing would be so low that retrieving a dead duckling would be considered acceptably completing the test.
> 
> I would have given the dog the benefit of the doubt and re-run the dog. If it failed to complete that retrieve, it would fail the test.
> 
> ...


Do you really think that the dog knew it was going after an adult dead mallard? Would any dog disregard bumpers or other dead ducks in the AOF to get THE ONE that was tossed? How are they supposed to know that, especially a young dog in JH level?


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## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

I would have failed all the dogs before this one that passed up the duckling. LOL


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

If I had been judging and without a picture of what the terrain or conditions presented, I'd run the dog on the second mark and tell the handler that my co-judge and I would talk about it ... that he should check with us when land finished. That way, the two of us would have an opportunity to talk about the episode and come to a reasoned decision. Making the decision right then and there almost assures us of a mistake.

1. If we decided to re-run the dog on mark #1, the dog would have time to age the impression out of his mind plus have a lot of drag back scent to help overcome the first impression.

2. If we decided to accept the dead duckling, so be it. 

This is where judgement come in. When a situation occurs that is far beyond whet you've thought about before, find a way to take the time to think about it now. With this in mind, run the dog on mark #2 and then take the time to review your options without stealing the time from other handlers or the test generally.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My take there's 3 other marks to judge this dog on; if the dog can't mark or won't pick up a bird, it'll be shown in the 3 other marks, so we let this one go as (act of god-circumstance), give the dog a shot at the other marks, if we see a pattern (dog coming up short, not picking up bird), we fail the dog, if we don't whelp doggie gets the benefit of the doubt and a ribbon. It's JH, not the National championship, no harm in giving any JH the benefit of the doubt, and no harm in letting a young dog see some more marks, in a $65-$75 (pay for the privilege) test. JH equates to go out get the bird; dog got a bird, a wild-duck at that . As for the duckling being carrion, it's probably fresher than many ducks used in many tests, I've ran  Heck we asking any dog to retrieve any bird that we haven't shot directly out of the air, or that has been used over and over, out in the sun for hours, is asking a dog to retrieve carrion. I'm not eating that 

My experience in No-birds/re-run in JH; dog does exactly what dog did or was going to do the first time. Either they go to where the first bird landed, or they go right back to area they found a duckling. There was already one bird there, why shouldn't there be another one? With dead ducklings they were lucky, that there wasn't another one or ten .


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## DropinBack (Sep 24, 2012)

Since first of 4 marks... i would have let it move on and if it nailed the other 4 passed it but not have knocked it out the first mark... because it did bring back a duck from the fall area. Thats if i were the judge....


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

one other thing I forgot to mention the judges let him retrieve the last bird which was a live flyer the dog went out and picked it up. like I said I didn't start this to bash judges it was just unusual and I thought people might enjoy hearing about it.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Ducklings are all I've seen at most HTs and FTs this Spring!


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

John Gassner said:


> Ducklings are all I've seen at most HTs and FTs this Spring!


Isn't that the truth.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Why did theys throw a Baby duck??


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If I was judgin,,I woulda hugged the dog, and said "Bless yer heart"...................... Then Yelled "NEXT"


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

How do they know that the Baby duck dint come outa the Momma duck, when theys threw her??


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This just confirms how important Duck seating is........ DONT SKIP STEPS,,, and dont run tests till you is ready!!


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## scott2012 (Feb 16, 2009)

It looked like a duck.... smelled like a duck.... tasted like a duck... next dog


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> This just confirms how important Duck seating is........ DONT SKIP STEPS,,, and dont run tests till you is ready!!


It's time to revive that thread!!! We all need a good laugh and a reminder of how things REALLY need to be done!!


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## BMay (Mar 3, 2003)

Pat, PM sent!


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Why did theys throw a Baby duck??


Club saves a lot of money on birds. $1.50 duckling vs $ 13.00 grown duck.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm confused was this the first mark, or the 3rd? Might make a difference if dog already didn't show it in the first series. He might've borderlined the first series needed a really good one, to carry on. No judge bashing from me I wasn't there; just not how I would've handled it, with given info. What the judges did was definitely in the rules; different judges, different interpretations; different view points; which is good when your trying to define this intangible thing called standard.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

this was on the first bird down. after reading all of this I wish to apologize to the judges if they are reading this it was not my intent to bash judges or clubs I just thought it would be taken as something that was weird and kind of funny and chances are it will never happen again


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

pat addis said:


> this was on the first bird down. after reading all of this I wish to apologize to the judges if they are reading this it was not my intent to bash judges or clubs I just thought it would be taken as something that was weird and kind of funny and chances are it will never happen again



I don't really think it's a problem; the bashers on this post either don't know or care what the regulations say. They also think that Junior tests are a joke and whatever a dog brings back is ok, as long as it brings SOMETHING back. The Judges did everything correctly by allowing the dog a rerun. If I was one of them I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The folks who posted that the field wasn't "clean" had me ROTHFLMAO. Talk about a needle in a haystack.....

The worst thing in this thread (if it really happened at all) was the Master dog which was carried to the next series after retrieving a BUMPER it found while hunting an area which was certainly way outside the AOF.-Paul


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

paul young said:


> I don't really think it's a problem; the bashers on this post either don't know or care what the regulations say. They also think that Junior tests are a joke and whatever a dog brings back is ok, as long as it brings SOMETHING back. The Judges did everything correctly by allowing the dog a rerun. If I was one of them I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The folks who posted that the field wasn't "clean" had me ROTHFLMAO. Talk about a needle in a haystack.....
> 
> The worst thing in this thread (if it really happened at all) was the Master dog which was carried to the next series after retrieving a BUMPER it found while hunting an area which was certainly way outside the AOF.-Paul


And the dog that pulled a bird out of the gun station bucket got carried, pretty hard to believe.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

road kill said:


> And the dog that pulled a bird out of the gun station bucket got carried, pretty hard to believe.


I was not there, but I sure do know the owner of the dog. 'nuff said.


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## RJG (Feb 18, 2005)

Here's a true story. In a SH test our old Lab, Sage (who was, um, an independent fellow) watched the mark (dead bird) go down, went after it when sent, hunted a bit in the AOF - then left the AOF and disappeared into the nearby woods. We waited and waited for what seemed like an extended period of time. Finally he reappeared carrying something in his mouth. The judge said, "What the heck is that?" As he got closer, we could see that it was an old duck carcass - really only the bill and a bunch of bones left. It was pretty darn funny...And, no - he was not called back (dogs are good for teaching humility).


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

paul young said:


> Then, of course there's always the regulations to consider .................. (7) When encountering wild birds, rabbits, or other game, the working dog should ignore such distractions or be sufficiently under control to be handled to the fall. Judges shall decide, in advance, how they will deal with this situation. Found on page 36 of the regulations.


You are sure stuck on your rules and regulations! This a junior test, very possible a young dog, very possible a new person to the game running the dog. The dog watched the bird fall, the dog went out to the area of the fall and retrieved a bird and then brought it back to it’s handler. The dog and handler did their job, case closed move on to the next mark. I thing it is most important to encourage people to continue playing the game and not get all rapped up in rules and regulations, especially at the junior level, there is enough time for all of that in the upper levels.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I can understand giving the dog a non-score for that mark.

However, I just don't understand the point of re-running it. 
What of any value could possibly be learned, or demonstrated, in a re-run of that mark?

I wouldn't repeat it in training, and I wouldn't re-run it in a test either.


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

sunnydee said:


> I thing it is most important to encourage people to continue playing the game and not get all rapped up in rules and regulations, especially at the junior level, there is enough time for all of that in the upper levels.[/QUOTE
> 
> Let's just throw the rules away for those junior dogs then and give them all ribbons just for their appearance fee!! And I get the whole...."use the juniors to get a hook into'em" idea, but to say to not get all wrapped up in the rules and regs.......yikes.


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## skyy (Mar 25, 2014)

paul young said:


> I don't really think it's a problem; the bashers on this post either don't know or care what the regulations say. They also think that Junior tests are a joke and whatever a dog brings back is ok, as long as it brings SOMETHING back. The Judges did everything correctly by allowing the dog a rerun. If I was one of them I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The folks who posted that the field wasn't "clean" had me ROTHFLMAO. Talk about a needle in a haystack.....
> 
> The worst thing in this thread (if it really happened at all) was the Master dog which was carried to the next series after retrieving a BUMPER it found while hunting an area which was certainly way outside the AOF.-Paul


AMEN !!!!!!!!!!! Paul... AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!


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## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

paul explain to me how the rule you quote applies? the dog went after a dead duck...it brought back a dead duck and the duck it brought back was in the the area of the other duck..had they thrown a dead hen and the dog picked up a dead drake from the area
and brought it back would that be an issue as well? 

ed samples
brentwood tn


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Darin Westphal said:


> sunnydee said:
> 
> 
> > I thing it is most important to encourage people to continue playing the game and not get all rapped up in rules and regulations, especially at the junior level, there is enough time for all of that in the upper levels.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I have no idea how big of a ducking this was and I am not sure it matters. I would think most or many juniors would "know" they were not picking up the bird that was thrown and that would be a training issue. Not much different from a dog running to a mark and having small birds flush or fly in front of him on the way. 
That said if I was judging I would opt for the rerun and would expect the dog to pick up the mark or be dropped. I would have made them go back three dogs.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

just me said:


> paul explain to me how the rule you quote applies? the dog went after a dead duck...it brought back a dead duck and the duck it brought back was in the the area of the other duck..had they thrown a dead hen and the dog picked up a dead drake from the area
> and brought it back would that be an issue as well?
> 
> ed samples
> brentwood tn


what if it were just a dead bird and not a duck? Would you feel the same way? What if it was a cow patty? I don't disqualify the dog for picking up a bird, but I do not pass them either. I give a rerun and let's see if it was an honest instinct/mistake and make sure the dog can actually mark. My belief is that even a junior dog knows the difference between the duck thrown and a duckling.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Let's just throw the rules away for those junior dogs then and give them all ribbons just for their appearance fee!! And I get the whole...."use the juniors to get a hook into'em" idea, but to say to not get all wrapped up in the rules and regs.......yikes.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for your understanding and support. And some people wonder why others think a JH title means nothing.........-Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

sunnydee said:


> You are sure stuck on your rules and regulations! This a junior test, very possible a young dog, very possible a new person to the game running the dog. The dog watched the bird fall, the dog went out to the area of the fall and retrieved a bird and then brought it back to it’s handler. The dog and handler did their job, case closed move on to the next mark. I thing it is most important to encourage people to continue playing the game and not get all rapped up in rules and regulations, especially at the junior level, there is enough time for all of that in the upper levels.


A lot of us judges tend to be that way. 

I think it's the only way to be fair and I think the handlers deserve to know that the rules are the same for everyone and will be enforced the same for everyone.


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## Susan Young (Apr 13, 2004)

sunnydee said:


> You are sure stuck on your rules and regulations! This a junior test, very possible a young dog, very possible a new person to the game running the dog. The dog watched the bird fall, the dog went out to the area of the fall and retrieved a bird and then brought it back to it’s handler. The dog and handler did their job, case closed move on to the next mark. I thing it is most important to encourage people to continue playing the game and not get all rapped up in rules and regulations, especially at the junior level, there is enough time for all of that in the upper levels.


And yet, the AKC itself seems to feel that by abiding by the rules, judges "play a key role in maintaining the future well-being of the sport."

Do you judge? If so, you at some point, like every other AKC judge, have signed and submitted a Judges Affirmation Form which reads:

“Judge’s Affirmation:

I certify that I am familiar with the American Kennel Club’s rules, regulations and policies governing AKC events and agree to abide by them. I agree to remain up-to-date regarding changes to these same rules, regulations and policies. I understand that a Judge plays a key role in maintaining the future well-being of the sport.”


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

To the critics---I would not argue with Paul Young or Susan Young.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

sunnydee said:


> You are sure stuck on your rules and regulations! This a junior test, very possible a young dog, very possible a new person to the game running the dog. The dog watched the bird fall, the dog went out to the area of the fall and retrieved a bird and then brought it back to it’s handler. The dog and handler did their job, case closed move on to the next mark. I thing it is most important to encourage people to continue playing the game and not get all rapped up in rules and regulations, especially at the junior level, there is enough time for all of that in the upper levels.


So give ribbons to everybody so they come to expect it at the next level? After all it just seniors, gotta encourage them....
There is a standard for a reason. I would argue that failing a dog in your first test can be as much a motivator to continue as passing a dog that should not have.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

paul young said:


> A lot of us judges tend to be that way.
> 
> I think it's the only way to be fair and I think the handlers deserve to know that the rules are the same for everyone and will be enforced the same for everyone.


Amen Paul...


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## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

corey but the dog didn't bring back a dead blackbird or a dead rabbit or a dead carp it didn't take off after a flushed rabbit it didn't chase butterflies it went out to find a duck found a duck in the area it was told to go to and brought the duck it found back and delivered to hand..exactly what it was asked to do..


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

just me said:


> .... in the area it was told to go to.....


Really?? 

According to who? 

We don't know that, we were not there. We don't where the area of fall was, how large it was, the dogs hunt prior to picking up the duckling, and the position of the duckling relative to the area of fall. We don't know any of that because we were not there. The Judges define what the area of fall is, not the handler. 

The Judges did what they felt was fair and let the chips fall where they did. They were there folks. We were not.


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## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

i merely responded based on the ops description.. had it been my dog i would have thanked the judges after the reun and life would go on.. to me ht like all other dog venues are a game nothing more nothing less


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Really??
> 
> According to who?
> 
> ...


OP says, "dog goes out about 10 yrds short of the actual bird"
Is that not close enough to AOF?
I feel bad for the dog cause of the unfortunate circumstance. Like others have already said, there were three more marks to judge the dog on.


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, tastes like a duck and if it was truly in the area of the fall you would make a junior dog re-run? seriously? A dog stumbles on a duck nest, I think I read in the AOF (this was a single so I would hope the AOF was not that big) while looking for a dead bird and he honors his nose and you reward the young dog with a re-run? He was sent for a duck and succeeded by retrieving a duck. Show me in the rules where it defines the size of a duck that must be retrieved. If the dog retrieved a full size mallard would you require a re-run?

Since there's probably more ducklings in the nest. I think the judges would scrap the test and move the mark making a rerun unnecessary.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

What I have gotten out of this thread is there is definitely some flexibility to the AKC rules and regulations and whether the judges excepted the first run or ask for a rerun they would have been in their rights. Having read all of the responses it is apparent that opinioned are like a--holes, everyone has one. There is a couple of paragraphs in the Regulations and Guidelines for AKC Hunt Tests that says, “Judges have considerable latitude in the conduct of a Test.” and “The Regulations are not intended to be restrictive, either to Officials or Judges.” If I was the judge under this particular situation I would have excepted the first run and I would have had the rights to do so. There is no doubt that judging is a tough job, you just do your best and move on.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts and you can give me the business but all this discussion over a junior hunt test. It's a single and not to far a distance. If you can't mark you can't mark. Rerun, not fair etc. it's a single and you can hold the dog. This is crazy. Junior hunt test Single at less then ????


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## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

paul young said:


> A lot of us judges tend to be that way.
> 
> I think it's the only way to be fair and I think the handlers deserve to know that the rules are the same for everyone and will be enforced the same for everyone.


I agree the rules should be the same for everyone. Would you mind passing that on to AKC. They seem to have forgotten that when it comes to the Spaniel upland test. Giving breed specific allowances. I.E. Labs, Flat coats and some other breeds are not required to quarter the field or they can be encouraged to flush. If my Spaniel yo yo hunts I would be dropped. If my spaniel didn't have a bold flush I would be dropped. If I had to tell my spaniel to flush I would be dropped and dropped kicked for talking to my dog at the master level. The Spaniel Master Hunter title means **** now. Passing it out like candy.


Sorry to get off topic a little but makes my blood boil when I think about it.


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## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

pat addis said:


> this was on the first bird down. after reading all of this I wish to apologize to the judges if they are reading this it was not my intent to bash judges or clubs I just thought it would be taken as something that was weird and kind of funny and chances are it will never happen again


This post was just brought to my attention and it was recommended to me to not say anything. But a few of the statements made are not correct. The gallery for this test was at least 50 yds from the line and perpendicular to the working dog. This was not the first bird down it was the 3rd bird down, 1st on the water series. The dog did not get to the area of the fall. There was a large mound/island the mark was 20 yds to the left of the island. The dog stopped on the on the right side near the front of the island. The dog was digging in the mud for 1 - 2 minutes then returned with a rather decomposed baby wood duck. Had the dog been in the area of the fall and returned with the baby duck it would have counted as the mark. The dog did not pick up a flyer as the next bird as the only flyer was on the land series. 

Junior dogs are given a lot of leniency and a large aof. Same with the handlers lots of leniency they don't always know the rules and typically are rather nervous. The junior stake is where we get our next players and we do not want to discourage them, but there has to be appropriate dog work for the level.


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## Rose's Mom (May 31, 2013)

Handler Error said:


> Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, tastes like a duck and if it was truly in the area of the fall you would make a junior dog re-run? seriously? A dog stumbles on a duck nest, I think I read in the AOF (this was a single so I would hope the AOF was not that big) while looking for a dead bird and he honors his nose and you reward the young dog with a re-run? He was sent for a duck and succeeded by retrieving a duck. Show me in the rules where it defines the size of a duck that must be retrieved. *If the dog retrieved a full size mallard would you require a re-run*?
> 
> Since there's probably more ducklings in the nest. I think the judges would scrap the test and move the mark making a rerun unnecessary.



Very interesting conversation. At a recent JH test I helped in the blind the same situation happened except it was a full size duck that obviously was there before the test started. No-one saw it before and the people who worked the blinds and the judges and the set up people and helpers waled thru there. The dog was re-ran couple dogs later.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

That handler and dog got "ducked"!

Irishwhistler


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## boyetthunter (Jul 21, 2009)

paul young said:


> The worst thing in this thread (if it really happened at all) was the Master dog which was carried to the next series after retrieving a BUMPER it found while hunting an area which was certainly way outside the AOF.-Paul


This most DEFINITELY did happen. I was the one shooting the flyer.........


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