# EIC carrier to EIC clear = ?



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

When an EIC carrier is bred to an EIC clear, what will the estimated per centages be in the litter ?

I can't seem to find this info.

I found the CNM per cents, but not the EIC per cents. 

Helen


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

50% carriers, 50%clear theoretically.


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

All autosomal recessive traits follow the same statistical probability. Well... that was clear as mud, I guess 

What I mean is that CNM, PRA and several other DNA identified traits that are caused by a recessive gene will follow the same rules of % inheritance. If you can find a table for PRA or CNM, it will be the same projected percentage as for EIC - even though that specific table has not yet been published.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

You can figure the percentages and possibillities by making a box with four squares. Each dog has two genes for the trait. Only one of the genes is passed on to each offspring.

The square works for simple recessive traits like blue eyes in people, yellow hair in labs, CNM and EIC.

For instance with black or yellow labs, you have two collums labeled with either BB, BY, YY and two rows labeled with either BB, BY or YY. In the squares you just add the letters together. Chocolate is supposedly a type of yellow, and I don't know how to figure that off the top of my head.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2008)

Here are expected results:

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_prcdprabs.html


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

DL said:


> You can figure the percentages and possibillities by making a box with four squares.


It is called a Punnett Square and here is a link to some information about it with an example of how it is used
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square



> For instance with black or yellow labs, you have two collums labeled with either BB, BY, YY and two rows labeled with either BB, BY or YY. In the squares you just add the letters together.


Well.... sort of. The gene for yellow (phaeomelanin) is recessive to the gene for dark hair (eumelanin) and if you are ONLY working with dogs that don't carry chocolate, this sort of thinking will work. 



> Chocolate is supposedly a type of yellow, and I don't know how to figure that off the top of my head.


Please.... there is enough misinformation about chocolates without adding more. Chocolate is not only NOT a type of yellow, it happens as a result of a factor in the Black (dark color) gene locus. So... you really don't just have two combinations that you can easily stick into a simple Punnett Square, but a multiple-gene combination that fits into the DIHYBRID cross example shown at the bottom of the Punnett Square link I gave. 

Here is a pretty good link to a page on color inheritance and probability.
http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

Here is the info you need on EIC and Penett square http://www.cvm.umn.edu/img/assets/9388/EIC Info for VDL 7-28-08.pdf


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks for the link.


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Dogguy said:


> Here is the info you need on EIC and Penett square http://www.cvm.umn.edu/img/assets/9388/EIC Info for VDL 7-28-08.pdf


This link is also on the test webpage:

For EIC information related to genetics and breeding, click here .

http://www.vdl.umn.edu/vdl/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/home.html


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## KRP (May 28, 2008)

UNDERSTANDING TEST RESULTS: THE INHERITANCE OF EIC


In exchange for allowing them to sample your dog to advance the research into how common the
mutation is in the Labrador population, the laboratory in Minnesota will provide you with test results,
letting you know whether your dog is:
Affected by EIC (has 2 copies of the probable causative mutation)
A carrier of EIC (has 1 copy of the probable causative mutation)
Clear of EIC (no copies of the probable causative mutation)
EXPLANATION:
Every dog gets 2 copies of every gene - one from its mother and one from its father.
The mutation in the gene that causes EIC is inherited as an autosomal recessive trait, which means that
all affected dogs (those showing signs of collapse) have 2 copies of the mutated gene - one that they
got from their mother, and one that they got from their father.
Carriers, by definition, are dogs that have one copy of the mutated gene that they got from either
their mother or their father and they have one normal copy of the gene that they got from the other parent.
These dogs do not have EIC and will not show signs of collapse. They will pass their copy of the mutated
gene on to approximately half of their puppies.
- if a carrier is bred to a non-carrier, none of their pups will be affected by EIC, but about half of
their pups will be carriers.
- if a carrier is bred to another carrier, about 1/2 of their pups will be carriers, 1/4 of their pups will
be non-carriers (clear) and 1/4 of their pups will be affected by EIC.
- if a carrier is bred to an affected dog, about 1/2 of their pups will be carriers and 1/2 of their
pups will be affected by EIC.So you can see, if you have a carrier dog or bitch, it is very important to know the EIC status of
any dog you are breeding to.
Clear dogs are dogs that do not have any copies of the mutation.
- these dogs do not have EIC and will not show signs of collapse
- if a clear dog is bred to a non-carrier (clear) dog, none of their pups will be carriers and none
will have EIC
- if a clear dog is bred to a carrier, about 1/2 of their pups will be carriers but none will have EIC
- if a clear dog is bred to an affected dog, all of their pups will be carriers, but none will actually
have EIC.
Affected dogs have 2 copies of the mutation
-both of their parents are either carriers or affected by EIC
-affected dogs have EIC and most will show signs of exercise intolerance or collapse when
participating in trigger activities with a high level of excitement/stress
- a few genetically affected dogs (having 2 copies of the mutation) never exhibit any signs of EIC
-breeding one affected dog to another affected dog will result in all puppies having EIC.
- if an affected dog is bred to a carrier, about 1/2 of their pups will be carriers and ½ of their pups
will be affected by EIC.
- if an affected dog is bred to a clear dog, all of their pups will be carriers, but none will actually
have EIC


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Remember, too, that the percentages are actually for EACH PUP. We all talk about them as though they are for the whole litter, and they can be roughly translated that way-but the charts represent the possibilities per pup-same as the color charts. In the same way that you can get an unexpectedly high (or low) number of a certain color of pups in a tri-factored breeding, for example, you could end up with a higher or lower percentage of carriers in a carrier x clear breeding than the chart shows-it depends on how the genes match up in each pup in the litter.


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

I have some experience with this issue related to PRA - which is also a recessive and is inherited in the same manner as EIC. I have a bitch that is a carrier and we opted to include her in our breeding program. She had 4 litters for us from four different tested clear studs, of course. Here is the breakdown:
#1 - 5 pups, all clear.
#2 - 2 pups, both carriers.
#3 - 3 pups (one died), one clear and one carrier.
#4 - 10 pups (one died), 3 clear and 6 carriers. 

If you add these all together you get a perfect example of the projected percentages used in most tables. 9 puppies are clear, 9 puppies are carriers. We got our 50% of each.... but scattered through all the litters.


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## Big Jake (Apr 23, 2011)

THis information is EXTREMELY helpful and impossible to find anywhere else. Thank you!!!!


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

pupaloo said:


> Remember, too, that the percentages are actually for EACH PUP. We all talk about them as though they are for the whole litter, and they can be roughly translated that way-but the charts represent the possibilities per pup-same as the color charts.


VERY true...it's easy to start thinking that the entire litter should be a 50/50 split when that's not the case. Those percentages are on a pup by pup basis. Case in point....EIC clear x carrier...first breeding produced 6 clear.......repeat produced 7 carrier and 4 clear.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

I just bred my Jefe who is a CNM carrier to my own Idgie, who is an EIC carrier.

On the EIC puppy tests six pups were carriers, three were clear.

On the CNM test, three dogs were carriers, six were clear.

As luck would have it, the three clear EIC pups were also among the six clear CNM pups. So we had three clear/clear pups, three EIC carrier pups, and three EIC/CNM carrier pups. 

All pups with carrier status were sold with limited registrations. 

All three clear pups went to field trial homes, and the rest happily went to hunting or home environments. The carrier status was not an issue with any of them as we were very clear on our advertising and visits with prospective buyers.

Before somebody asks me why I would breed two carriers together, I will go ahead and reply to my own question; because I wanted a pup out of Jefe, who I consider to be a very talented dog and because Idgie is a bitch I own who has traits that I thought would complement Jefe's. The other part of the equation is it is almost impossible to breed a non-titled (Jefe has 9 AA points) CNM carrier to a quality bitch.

So far the owners love the pups and those who have seen these guys work in the field are talking about a repeat breeding. We'll see.....


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I wonder what percentage of FT Labs who have been tested, are carriers or affected with CNM? Just how prevelent is it?


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Scott Adams said:


> I wonder what percentage of FT Labs who have been tested, are carriers or affected with CNM? Just how prevelent is it?


CNM affecteds are usually put down. A CNM affected wouldn't be able to run a trial.

No idea on the percentage of CNM carriers. 

In any case, this thread is about EIC, not CNM.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Those of you new to understanding "what the odds are" and trying to beat them need to understand a real simple idea in probability theory.

When we say the odds are 50:50 it means that if a huge number of breedings, coin flips, gambles ocurred, then we would expect 50:50. However in small samples such as litters we can expect almost any ratio. 

Here is a simple example to remember. If you flip a coin, it is 50:50 to get a heads or a tail. If you flip 100,000 coins you'll get close to 50,000heads :50,000tails.

HOWEVER, let's say you flip a coin and you get heads. Many people think that the next flip should be a tail. But for the next flip the odds never change-it is still 50:50. You can get 5 heads in a row and the sixth flip the odds are still 50:50.

Breeding is like flipping a coin. With typical litter sizes, you can expect to get almost any ratio. If you have 8 pups, try flipping a coin 8 times. Then do it again and again. Eye-opener?

Probability theory 101

Cheers


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

The ratio in the litter that produced my dog and the one Dennis has was 9 clear 2 carriers


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

the results that produced my pup from a litter of 8, 8 EIC carriers 0 clear...so its all chance just as Dennis explained.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

One other thing to be aware of is there is a small percentage of test results that are wrong. While EIC affected arent desirable it is not the end of the world. I only know of one dog that was tested twice for a genetic disease (CNM) and that dog has one certificate saying he is Clear from one testing center and one certificate saying he is a carrier. Mistakes at labs can happen. And mistakes can happen when taking samples.


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