# Lean Mac Avoidance



## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

I have seen more and more people state that a breeding is Lean Mac free. What are some of the issues that tend to have people shy away from Lean Mac? It is pretty apparent that Lean Mac lines have produced over and over again. Is it traits or hereditary issues or something else? I am looking to get a new pup in the next 6 months any and all information would be good. Not intending to disrupt or hurt any breeders out there but just want to be informed as much as possible. PM me if you don't want to say it to everyone. Thanks.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

my two theories

1. there are so many linebred Lean Mac dogs out there, people are just trying to bring something new to the equation

2. its a cyclical thing, Mac was the stud/sperm donor/grand sire du jour for the last decade that people just want something fresh..

just my $.02


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

Could be that folks have Lean Mac in their lines and would like to outcross at a later date. Love my Lean Mac bitch but would look at an outcross for breeding. Lot of good lines out here.


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## BrianW (May 10, 2005)

I've seen that request for "Mac free" lines and have wondered as well.

A couple things to offer if I may; 
It's been said that LM may have been an EIC carrier, so if folks are trying to breed away from that issue, that could be a factor?
Also, in a response to a recent post, I got a pm that said that person had come across several Mac pups with coat/skin issues.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

BrianW said:


> I've seen that request for "Mac free" lines and have wondered as well.
> 
> A couple things to offer if I may;
> It's been said that LM may have been an EIC carrier, so if folks are trying to breed away from that issue, that could be a factor?
> Also, in a response to a recent post, I got a pm that said that person had come across several Mac pups with coat/skin issues.


EIC is unlikely to be the reason since it is so easy to use EIC clear offspring. I think many people are beginning to have lines where Lean Mac shows up twice already and they are not eager for a breeding that brings him in a third time.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

I would guess that it is near impossible to avoid LM if you are looking among top field dogs. LM produced too many FC and/or AFC's and NFC and NAFC's that folks want him in thier pedigree.

Add the fact that Chopper, a Lean Mac grand-get will probably surpass the total breedings by LM and we will see a lot of LM in pedigrees for a long, long time.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I definately think it's because so many good FC's have LM that people look for a breeding without LM that has all the health certs and clear for EIC and CNM. To some people it's marketing. I feel the same way about chocolates and going back to Tayduh too much and a few others.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I definately think it's because so many good FC's have LM that people look for a breeding without LM that has all the health certs and clear for EIC and CNM. To some people it's marketing. I feel the same way about chocolates and going back to Tayduh too much and a few others.


About a month ago, I had someone interested in breeding to my male(NAFC FC Carbon x LM bitch littermate to 4 FC's/5AFC'). His HT female is by NFC Patton and out of a FC AFC Chaves bitch. He asked me if I thought it was too much LM. I pause and said, let me but a pencil to it. Pups would be technically,31.25% LM. Knowing what we do about EIC, I said lets do it. 

I like both sire and dam, I like where they get thier LM from and I'll probably start one for FT's as well as the breeder starting one for FT's.


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## TerRun (Jan 6, 2008)

I have avoided LM in my breedings solely to have a line without him so that I have a lot of LM options to breed to in the future. I don't know of any "issues" with him, he produced some of the best get and some of those have also produced. He did carry EIC, but why does that matter since you can test your dam and whoever you breed to and not have affected dogs? That being said, there is just way too much Lean Mac in our performance lines and we need to bring in some new genes to have a healthy future in field trial dogs. FC AFC Fourleafs Ice Breaker is something different and has National potential. FC Big Buck's Badger has an awesome pedigree and has hardly been used as a stud.


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> my two theories
> 
> 1. there are so many linebred Lean Mac dogs out there, people are just trying to bring something new to the equation
> 
> ...


This is 100% the way I feel. I have nothing against Maxx, Its just here is to much of him. Every where you look this is Lean Mac. I'm having a lot of Trouble trying to find a pup with no lean mac in it. My kennels is and always will be lean Mac Free. This is just my personal Opinion.


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

What traits (good only please) is Maxx know to have thrown, besides success. Like was he know to produce key factors such as pin point markers, far sighted dogs, easy to train dogs, 
Calm, on off, high desire, rock steady,what exactly are some of the talents did his presence bring about in a litter??
would enjoy the education, please...Franco?


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## LAwaterfowler (Jan 22, 2009)

Franco said:


> I would guess that it is near impossible to avoid LM if you are looking among top field dogs. LM produced too many FC and/or AFC's and NFC and NAFC's that folks want him in thier pedigree.
> 
> Add the fact that Chopper, a Lean Mac grand-get will probably surpass the total breedings by LM and we will see a lot of LM in pedigrees for a long, long time.


I was old recently if they had to put money on it they would guess lean mac was bread over 500times easily. You really think Chopper will surpass his breeding numbers


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> My kennels is and always will be lean Mac Free. This is just my personal Opinion.


I can see someone not wanting to go back to LM 3 times but why no LM ever? Does that mean no Tank, no Lottie, we know no Cosmo so no Harley?


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> I can see someone not wanting to go back to LM 3 times but why no LM ever? Does that mean no Tank, no Lottie, we know no Cosmo so no Harley?


Probably just doesn't like curled tails! 

How can you ever outcross if the same dog is always there? I think it is healthy for the breed to have a section of breeders that refuse to breed a certain line in their dogs. I like LM, like his progeny, but can completely understand why some just stay way from the line.


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## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

Purpledawg said:


> What traits (good only please) is Maxx know to have thrown, besides success. Like was he know to produce key factors such as pin point markers, far sighted dogs, easy to train dogs,
> Calm, on off, high desire, rock steady,what exactly are some of the talents did his presence bring about in a litter??
> would enjoy the education, please...Franco?


I would also like to know what are some of Lean Mac's outstanding characteristics and what are the common ones that he threw the most? 

Also, when looking for a breeding with LM lines what is a good cross to breed with? Any that are particularly strong to breed with? 

Thanks to all that have donated their suggestions and thoughts thus far.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Kyle B said:


> *Probably just doesn't like curled tails! *
> 
> How can you ever outcross if the same dog is always there? I think it is healthy for the breed to have a section of breeders that refuse to breed a certain line in their dogs. I like LM, like his progeny, but can completely understand why some just stay way from the line.


So that's where the curled tails come from!

I've gone out to a couple of field trials lately (to watch) after being away from it for almost 20 years. The number of dogs with slightly curled tails stood right out.

....Don


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

To me, his quality traits are in the winners he has produced!

No sire has produced the amount of NFC's, NAFC's, FC AFC's, CNFC's and CNAFC's.

Then, look at all the linebred LM dogs that have been winning over the last 6 years! 

In terms of FT winners, how does anyone second guess what his progency has won in the fireld? 

Crooked tails, not sure about that one. I've seen all types by Maxx as well as some other popular studs.

We do have the tools to breed around EIC.

Yes, at the rate Chopper(LM Grand get) is being bred, I do think Chopper has a very good chance of producing more total offspring than LM.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I have always assumed that it was people looking to breed, wanting dogs that are Lean Mac free to increase their options.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Part of what makes Maxx so amazing as a stud is that there doesn't seem to be any particular pattern to what lines he was bred to successfully. He produced champions from many females with almost any pedigree. A lot of white markings -- Bolo spots, chest markings, and some mismarks -- seem to show up in his progeny.


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## whelchel (Jun 30, 2008)

Lucky Number Seven said:


> I would also like to know what are some of Lean Mac's outstanding characteristics and what are the common ones that he threw the most?
> 
> Also, when looking for a breeding with LM lines what is a good cross to breed with? Any that are particularly strong to breed with?
> 
> Thanks to all that have donated their suggestions and thoughts thus far.


LM cross with Jazztime lines seems to be exceptional.


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> I can see someone not wanting to go back to LM 3 times but why no LM ever? Does that mean no Tank, no Lottie, we know no Cosmo so no Harley?


I like all those dogs But Lean Mac and Cosmo. Like I said I have nothing against those 2 dogs. Cosmo even lived 30 from me when he was alive. I just think there is to much of Maxx in Pedigrees and I don't want a dog with him in my Pedigree anywhere.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I'd say more people are looking for pedigrees with Lean Mac and Cosmo in it than without...

John Lash


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## RodneyB46 (Dec 18, 2008)

John Lash said:


> I'd say more people are looking for pedigrees with Lean Mac and Cosmo in it than without...
> 
> John Lash


i belive that.but one still has to ask whether it should be that way. oh questions,they always seem to get me in trouble.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

whelchel said:


> LM cross with Jazztime lines seems to be exceptional.


I've got a LM Jazztime cross that is a dream to train and run. Now if only I could be a better handler...


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

LavendersLabs said:


> I like all those dogs But Lean Mac and Cosmo. Like I said I have nothing against those 2 dogs. Cosmo even lived 30 from me when he was alive. I just think there is to much of Maxx in Pedigrees and I don't want a dog with him in my Pedigree anywhere.


seems strange someone would say they don't want a dog in their pedigree responsible for so many champions Pro and Amateur trained To be a champion that ends up in the finalist ring is nt your everyday FC/AFC. 

certainly could understand it if you were breeding show dogs a high or curled tail would be a sure kiss of ribbon death. 
what exactly are you breeding your dogs for?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

For genetic health and diversity it is not ideal for labrador studs to be used extensively. Random test matings before being offered at stud to the public may be worth while. 

The forefathers of particular breeds culled hard and kept good records. 

It has always seemed odd to me that if a human hospital notified us of a possible genetic disease in our family there would be a large chance to offer full disclose with no shame. Why not our dogs?


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

RodneyB46 said:


> i belive that.but one still has to ask whether it should be that way. oh questions,they always seem to get me in trouble.



1+

Quick boys, this way to the edge of the cliff!


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I think it boils down to what your goals are for a breeding. If you want a pup to compete in field trials, avoiding LM in your pedigree would not only be difficult, but possibly foolhardy. If you have a long-term breeding program and your goal is not immediate FT success, then there may be several valid reasons to avoid Maxx in your breedings.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

Couple of articles regarding Popular Sire Syndrome:

http://www.bichonhealth.org/HealthInfo/PopularSir.asp

http://www.geocities.com/aladarbeagles/popsire.html

Take from it what you will, but most breeders in other areas are very sensitive about having too much of one animal in the breed. I think LM was an extraordinary dog, and I also think that he has produced outstanding offspring that continue to win Field Trials (I have a LM grandson who I really like). 

I do, however, admire people who are willing to look at the larger picture of the breed and decide to go somewhere else. There are quite a few successful LM free studs out there that people are breeding to and getting good results.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Kyle B said:


> Couple of articles regarding Popular Sire Syndrome:
> 
> http://www.bichonhealth.org/HealthInfo/PopularSir.asp
> 
> ...


A fortunate difference between Labs and most other breeds is that the Labrador gene pool is very deep. Even with dogs like NFC AFC CFC Cork of Oakwood Lane showing up 50-60 times in a 10 generation pedigree, the coefficient of inbreeding can be very low. That mitigates the impact of a dog like Lean Mac. However, I would not like to see Lean Mac three times in a 3 generation pedigree. I wouldn't mind it in a 4 generation pedigree as long as his appearances were in the 3rd and 4th generations.


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## Excaliber (Apr 4, 2007)

LavendersLabs said:


> I like all those dogs But Lean Mac and Cosmo. Like I said I have nothing against those 2 dogs. Cosmo even lived 30 from me when he was alive. I just think there is to much of Maxx in Pedigrees and I don't want a dog with him in my Pedigree anywhere.


Ignorance seems to be the rule of the day in your thinking. If you just want a hunting dog then so be it. You can get those dogs at Sportsmans on the weekend. 

If you want a competitive dog you'd be better off with plenty of Lean Mac top and bottom.


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## TerRun (Jan 6, 2008)

Excaliber said:


> Ignorance seems to be the rule of the day in your thinking. If you just want a hunting dog then so be it. You can get those dogs at Sportsmans on the weekend.
> 
> If you want a competitive dog you'd be better off with plenty of Lean Mac top and bottom.


LavendersLabs is thinking of the future in breeding options of performance Labs. If one wanted a great performer now, go Lean Mac all the way, but if you want some healthy, top performers in the future, consciencious breeders need to breed something besides all Lean Mac. Those in competition now could help this effort by considering that something besides Lean Mac might be a good thing, and buy some of these pups from breeders trying to help the breed, rather than just trying to sell pups for top $.


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## Excaliber (Apr 4, 2007)

TerRun said:


> LavendersLabs is thinking of the future in breeding options of performance Labs. If one wanted a great performer now, go Lean Mac all the way, but if you want some healthy, top performers in the future, consciencious breeders need to breed something besides all Lean Mac. Those in competition now could help this effort by considering that something besides Lean Mac might be a good thing, and buy some of these pups from breeders trying to help the breed, rather than just trying to sell pups for top $.


Are you speculating that's what She's thinking or do you know for sure? I'm not seeing how having no Lean Mac whatsoever in any of her dogs is a benefit.
How could she be thinking of Future breedings to anything other than LM lines when she has no LM to begin with?


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

LavendersLabs said:


> This is 100% the way I feel. I have nothing against Maxx, Its just here is to much of him. Every where you look this is Lean Mac. I'm having a lot of Trouble trying to find a pup with no lean mac in it. My kennels is and always will be lean Mac Free. This is just my personal Opinion.


I noticed that your dog is a SH. LM may not he important in earing a SH. But, having LM is one's pedigree improves the odds of being successful in a competitive venue, dog vs dog.


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## TerRun (Jan 6, 2008)

Excaliber said:


> Are you speculating that's what She's thinking or do you know for sure? I'm not seeing how having no Lean Mac whatsoever in any of her dogs is a benefit.
> How could she be thinking of Future breedings to anything other than LM lines when she has no LM to begin with?


Speculating - guess I can't answer the last question except to speculate again that she is just trying to keep her lines LM free so that those with LM can look to her lines for something to cross with.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

LavendersLabs said:


> I just think there is to much of Maxx in Pedigrees and I don't want a dog with him in my Pedigree anywhere.


I am curious, have you ever bred or owned a Field Champion?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

About half my breedings have no LM but that just relates to what I choose to do with that breeding. I think LM dogs have raised the bar in competition and I like what I see in trainability and marking too much to avoid him entirely. There are some LM progeny I just adore and there are some I have not been that impressed with. It usually goes to depth of pedigree. IMHO through the years, when dogs are bred specifically for an outcross, and particularly to unknown lines for several generations, that's where I personally have seen the genetic stuff come out I don't like, and not as much in the linebreedings or sires that are well used. If a sire and dam was only bred a few times, how do you know what they will produce? It's not about who is bred but if they produce and if they are prepotent or from prepotent lines. I think in the end it all depends on what you are working toward in your breeding program, and if you don't have a truly exceptional or special dog, you won't get far in competition anymore, and I mean FT because it is competitive.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Franco said:


> I noticed that your dog is a SH. LM may not he important in earing a SH. But, having LM is one's pedigree improves the odds of being successful in a competitive venue, dog vs dog.


Well, I have a Cosmo daughter MH, a SH daughter of NFC Prize and 2 other LM granddaughters, MH & SH, having the old guard in there doesn't hurt at HT either.  I prefer the known talent to the unknown, I don't have the $$ and time to experiment with something different just to be different. Well, I actually did this past year and just sold that experiment for a pet, I wouldn't even consider it a gundog. Sweet, pretty, mellow, health clearances, zero talent. I defer to long timers & successful people in the FT world as to who produces what and what they are buying and/or breeding to. I only do HT and don't market to FT but I still want the goods and those come from proven dogs like LM and Harley, etc. When I go outside the box, I usually regret it.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

EdA said:


> I am curious, have you ever bred or owned a Field Champion?


I agree if you are looking to breed field champions, LM is a great attribute to your dog. 

From my understanding, Chas isn't looking at breeding dogs for field trials. More for hunting companions, house pets, and hunt test dogs. Yes lean mac is great, but not needed for any of those. I'm not speaking for her, but it's not gonna hurt to be LM free for her needs.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

It is a fine line to achieve balance between having the top or the potential for a top performance competition dog and health. Regardless of how good a breeding is, health considerations should allways trump performance potential. All buyers of puppies should justifiably have the expectation they are receiving a healthy happy well adjusted pup of good and sound temperment.
The biggest single factor in dog performance will be the training. Given that many people train hard and smart it will be necessary for you the dog owner to get the best dog you can afford. It may or may not have Lean Mac in the pedigree but it should have proven performance from that is researchable. Given the nature of the the top breedings the odds are there will be some Lean Mac in the pedigree. People naturally gravitate towards success.
It is not by accident that some dogs such as Lean Mac became great dogs. Looking over the list of dogs in the Retriever Hall of Fame you find the "A" list of the great ones. Lean Mac is one among them.
It gives me goose bumps just to day dream of so many of those great dogs being in the final series of a National. All the best handlers, amateur and pro alike with one great dog at their side. What a line up it would be. And then to find three judges that would not wither in the face of such competion. Oh what a test it would be. All the tension and drama with a wonderful and moving background story to every dog in the tenth series.
So when you get that pup from a great breeding, weather it is with or without Lean Mac in the pedigree you will have a whole lot of greatness in the "blood" of that puppy as it snuggles in your arms on the long drive home.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

I am looking for a puppy right now. Ive chosen a few studs. Im just waiting for the right bitch to get bred to them. Chopper, Shaq are my two pics so far. Ive seen a fair amount of their pups and like their pedigree. I really like Rebel for a yellow stud just hard to find a good breeding out of him. who knows i am in no hurry. I like my Shaq dog right now. He is gritty good desire and is a team player. He will never be a trial dog but not because he lacks ability. He will run hunt test though and get hunted like madd. My next puppy I would like to run trials with.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Judy Aycock and Mary Howley have produced multiple field champions. Both carefully select the stud and breed to FC AFC titled or high-quality bitches, and produce dogs that can be all-age competitive week in and week out (in field trials) and FC AFC. Neither Judy or Mary has avoided LM.

Who else has bred multiple FC AFC dogs over the years? Swingles using Lottie, Ferruci??

Some breeders are attempting to breed for better conformation (e.g., blocky head, shorter legs, otter tail), EIC/CNM/PRA clear (no carriers allowed), etc., etc., etc. For the majority of breeders, the likelihood of producing FC AFC quality offspring from nontitled and/or bitches lacking in pedigree are not very high (IMO) regardless of the stud chosen. Is it possible that most breeders are not breeding for field trial performance potential, and just want to improve the pet quality, hunting test quality dog?

Does anyone know of any Lean Mac litters coming up? Lean Mac still owns the National Open as far as number of offspring that qualify. We've owned 3 Lean Mac dogs, with 2 FCs. Our youngest female has Lean Mac on both sides of her pedigree and she is a keeper too. I'll take LM anyday! Ann


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## jollydog (Jul 10, 2006)

Ann - I totally agree with you! Does anyone know if any Lean Mac frozen semen is still available?

If not who are some top studs that are out of Lean Mac?

Thanks,
Sylvia McClure


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

I know someone that looked into breeding their female to LM within the last few months. Apparently there are still at least a few straws left (not sure how many).


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

This late fall there is a planned breeding to Lean Mac.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Ironwood said:


> This late fall there is a planned breeding to Lean Mac.


Please send PM to jollydog and me with breeder info. Thanks.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> the Labrador gene pool is very deep.


True, but when specialising for requirements, retriever games (one example the labradors entered in next months US Open national), guide dogs for the visualised impaired etc the gene pool is further limited.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Dr Ed,
> *Judy Aycock and Mary Howley have produced multiple field champions. Both carefully select the stud and breed to FC AFC titled or high-quality bitches, and produce dogs that can be all-age competitive week in and week out (in field trials) and FC AFC. Neither Judy or Mary has avoided LM*.
> 
> Who else has bred multiple FC AFC dogs over the years? Swingles using Lottie, Ferruci??
> ...


Judy and Ms Howley also go back to the line that they know best which is the Honcho- Cody (Zip Code), and the Candlewood Tanker,Lottie lines 

Roy McFall in Alaska has also done a very fine job of producing his own line of Hiwood dogs the basis of which was the Cork of Oakwood and Del Tone Colvin lines


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

And it would seem to me, that the current all time high pt derby dog has no Lean Mac. Who knows what lies in our future.

There is room for everyone.

I have a couple of lines with no Lean Mac. Sometimes it just works out that way.

WRL


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

WRL said:


> And it would seem to me, that the current all time high pt derby dog has no Lean Mac. Who knows what lies in our future.
> 
> WRL


isnt that more feared (frowned up, culled) than a genetic time bomb? cccchooocccolate?

it'll take more than Ammo major success to turn the black tide


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Purpledawg said:


> isnt that more feared (frowned up, culled) than a genetic time bomb? cccchooocccolate?
> 
> it'll take more than Ammo major success to turn the black tide


The black tide will never be turned so to speak. 

Black will always be (and should be) the dominant color in trials. But, that doesn't mean there will not be choc dogs that will step up and do extremely well. I think in the last few years, significant "progress" has been seen in "dogs of color" doing well in the competition arena.

But as with chocolate dogs, diversity makes the world go round.

WRL


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

WRL said:


> And it would seem to me, that the current all time high pt derby dog has no Lean Mac. Who knows what lies in our future.
> 
> There is room for everyone.
> 
> ...


If you're refering to Ammo, she has Lean Mac in her pedigree.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> If you're refering to Ammo, she has Lean Mac in her pedigree.


You are right.

I was referring to her sire and got ahead of myself. I should have put she was the result of a non Lean Mac dog.

WRL


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Is it only me, who ponders if Lean Mac was not used so extensively, what other unrelated health issues may be more prominent?


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

I have a male who's grand daddies are Lean Mac and Ramblin Man. Looking to purchase a complementary female for maybe one litter. Retired and active hunter and hunt test participant ,both AKC/HRC. Split time summers-Wisconsin, winters-Florida. Dogs get lots of hunting ,just returned from 3 weeks in North Dakota,trips planned to Iowa and ARK. Dogs get lots of training, hunting and attention including lots of game farm birds


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## 1NarlyBar (Jul 10, 2008)

it's funny....


About six years ago, people marked LM as the number 1 reason for thyroid issues in trial dogs. Yet, no mention of it today.

Is it the fact that we place our collars at the thyroid, or has this "issue" been thinned out through time?

Just wondering, because (tell me if I am wrong) it seems that we don't have as many issues with the thyroid today as we did then. 


(I have no gripe w/ LM lines)


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

1NarlyBar said:


> it's funny....
> 
> 
> About six years ago, people marked LM as the number 1 reason for thyroid issues in trial dogs. Yet, no mention of it today.
> ...


Two things:

One I think some "thyroid issues" are now EIC issues.

Two, now with Thyroid and EIC tests, we can avoid some of affected dogs.

WRL


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

WRL said:


> Two, now with Thyroid and EIC tests, we can avoid some of affected dogs.
> 
> WRL


WRL,my vet thinks I am over cautious thyroid testing after my labs are over 4 years of age. What age do you cease?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Aussie said:


> WRL,my vet thinks I am over cautious thyroid testing after my labs are over 4 years of age. What age do you cease?


Hey Aussie,

There is a test you can have done and they can tell if the thyroid is normal, abnormal and abnormal (hereditary form). OFA will register the results. So most dogs are having the test done once.

WRL


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I remember 20-25 years ago where almost all the dogs on the truck got thyroid. IMHO it's considerably less now unless they were treating to keep sperm counts up which I know that's what some FC owners told me. I had never heard of LM specifically having thyroid problems.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

WRL said:


> Hey Aussie,
> 
> There is a test you can have done and they can tell if the thyroid is normal, abnormal and abnormal (hereditary form). OFA will register the results. So most dogs are having the test done once.
> 
> WRL


Thanks WRL. 

Quickly checked the OFA site. "It is recommended that reexamination occur at ages 2,3,4,6, and 8 years".


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## RuffWater (Oct 28, 2009)

We had a bitch from a strong Lean Mac line, she was an excellent marker and a great all around dog... She had white tips on her toes from day one, took training well... She had some health problems but that was due to other factors, not genetics (cists in her colon/intestine from ingesting foxtail seeds according to Iowa State University Pathology) and we lost her at 3yo... That was 5 years ago and I've been out of dogs since, just getting back now with our two ladies...

I take the 'no lean mac' as a positive to breeders that may have a strong lean mac line and want to add some genetics to their pups... So not good or bad, just is...


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Aussie said:


> Thanks WRL.
> 
> Quickly checked the OFA site. "It is recommended that reexamination occur at ages 2,3,4,6, and 8 years".


I would guess that would be a recommendation for the "non-hereditary" of abnormal. Most people would only be concerned with the hereditary forms.

WRL


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Judy Aycock and Mary Howley have produced multiple field champions. Both carefully select the stud and breed to FC AFC titled or high-quality bitches, and produce dogs that can be all-age competitive week in and week out (in field trials) and FC AFC. Neither Judy or Mary has avoided LM.


Ann, to belatedly answer your question:

Judy is the breeder of record for 34 FC &/or AFC dogs or bitches, of those, 20 have Lean Mac in the first or second generation

P.S. 33 of them have Honcho in there too....

Slow Day At The Office.....


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

EdA said:


> Ann, to belatedly answer your question:
> 
> Judy is the breeder of record for 34 FC &/or AFC dogs or bitches, of those, 20 have Lean Mac in the first or second generation
> 
> ...



Hopefully there are a few more in the pipeline.


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