# Labs: English vs. American?



## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Which way would you go if you were getting a dog for a person who wanted to compete some in HT, maybe some hunting, and be a companion? American or English?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

No doubt about it english, there much more suited for the newbie, calmer, deliver to hand out of the box and are a true gentlemans gun dog......

JK


Really doesn't matter, what matters most is that the puppy's from a sound breeding health wise and are from hunting stock, ..... I'm sure the new owner would be happy with either..


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

It depends...

Does that person like short and stocky or long and lean?


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

I think the person would be more interested in the temperment of the dog, than the looks.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

How about a Labrabeagle ?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

American field lab pup, sired by Shaq. He throws, calmish, birdy, tractable, thinking pups.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Are you refering to SkyHigh Retriever's dog, the Taylors, named Shaq?

They live in Washington state.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Well, I'm Irish -German. *And* American!  

Don't get hung up on the label because no one else will really care. 

Ask yourself what YOUR idea of the perfect lab is and go find the breeder that breeds that type/quality/energy level and enjoy....


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Mallard1 said:


> Are you refering to SkyHigh Retriever's dog, the Taylors, named Shaq?
> 
> They live in Washington state.


Nope, Bill Fruehling's dog, FC/AFC Wood River's Franchise, call name Shaq.

I've bred to him 3 times. Pups seem to learn and make good decisions. Most are calm, the one I know that isn't is still controllable and tractable. They like birds.

Damn, I sound like a commercial. But, I do like the pups I've gotten from Shaq.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> No doubt about it english, there much more suited for the newbie, calmer, deliver to hand out of the box and are a true gentlemans gun dog......
> 
> JK
> 
> ...


Love my little Callahan, 49lbs. short yellow pocket rocket(english)
She was my first HT/hunting dog. Would never make it in the FT game
but she is a sweetheart of a house dog and is crazy for ducks.
She picked up 422 ducks in Arkansas last season.
Good Luck to your friend


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Just decide the sort of dog you want, see Mom and Pop working, see the kennels Mom gave birth in, get the health stuff squared away ... and make an informed choice.

Actually I wouldn't have one of these stereotypical skinny snipe nosed yappy whining over-amped US trial dogs within a thousand miles of the joint. 

Eug


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

What the hell is an "English" lab?


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

sandyg said:


> It depends...
> 
> Does that person like short and stocky or long and lean?


Myth
Heres a British Lab out of Spud Lines. Even feeding him 4 cups a day I dont think it gets much Leaner than him.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

dadgum thats a fine looking lab Mud. Love that build, ifn i was a lab guy that's what id like.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> What the hell is an "English" lab?





> There are two types of Labradors, the English Labrador and the American Labrador. The English bred lab comes from English bred stock. Their general appearance is different. The English bred labs are heavier, thicker and blockier. The American bred Lab comes from American bred stock and is tall and lanky. The double coat is smooth and does not have any waves. Coat colors come in solid black, yellow, or chocolate. There is also said to be a rare silver or gray color that is referred to by the AKC as a shade of chocolate. ........................


It aint that hard

john


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Howard N said:


> American field lab pup, sired by Shaq. He throws, calmish, birdy, tractable, thinking pups.


 


Good idea Howard. I just happen to have 2 females left.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have a client dog, Cabbie, that is an english lab and she is a joy to train. The owner bought her from a kennel in PA and spent some pretty high $ on her. He never would tell me how much. If you are interested I will get the kennel name from him. If interested I have a post of a video clip of her running a simple triple. Do an advanced search on my name and you will find it. She is a small dog and weighs only 50 lbs.

Just like any other dog you need to do your research to make sure there is hunting genes as opposed to show dogs.


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## Ducko (Sep 6, 2011)

My question is...
Which lab gets bigger?
Which has more energy/drive ?
I want the toughest of the tough.


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## J.D. Penn (Feb 3, 2010)

Ducko said:


> My question is...
> Which lab gets bigger?
> Which has more energy/drive ?
> I want the toughest of the tough.



What does size have to do with tough?


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

Alec Sparks said:


> What the hell is an "English" lab?


they bark with a british accent


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## Ducko (Sep 6, 2011)

ducks_n_bucks01 said:


> What does size have to do with tough?


A bigger dog would have more power behind it. More UMPH. I dont want a kitten to go get my duck, I want a bear !


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Sorry Ducko...big does not equal tough. I have a, what some would call large, dog that weighs in at around 95lbs. I have seen many chiuhauas(sp?) that a way more verocious.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Ducko said:


> A bigger dog would have more power behind it. More UMPH. I dont want a kitten to go get my duck, I want a bear !


I've seen dynamite come in some small packages. I have a 50 pounder that has the heart of a lion.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Ducko said:


> A bigger dog would have more power behind it. More UMPH. I dont want a kitten to go get my duck, I want a bear !


Methinks the pot is being stirred....


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## Uklabman (Feb 28, 2011)

Bigger generally translates into more health issues as they age. You may want to consider that.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Someone go page through several issues of The Field or Shooting and tell me the dogs they WORK in the field in the UK look like a stereotypical "English" Lab......

Utter nonsense.

Working vs show type is what people are talking about.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Someone go page through several issues of The Field or Shooting and tell me the dogs they WORK in the field in the UK look like a stereotypical "English" Lab......
> 
> Utter nonsense.
> 
> Working vs show type is what people are talking about.


Ya think ?

http://www.thefield.co.uk/gundogs/268183/Pick_up_points_on_retrieving.html
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/530065/Gundog_training_video_Get_Back_command.html
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/health/285031/How_do_I_make_my_dog_comfortable_this_winter.html
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/galleri...RIES/id/10255/page/32/title/shooting-pictures

john


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

i dont'know...but the accent is very hotttt on a woman.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

The dogs in those English mags look English to me, but I don't know.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

John,

I can't see any really stereotypical short legged, heavy, blocky head dogs in those links.

I though we'd put this conformation Brit / American working dog thing to bed, but apparently not; this was my previous offering .... http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61507

Neither the US or UK breeders of working dogs adhere to their respective Kennel Club standards; as Alex says, the workers all look pretty much the same. 

Eug


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Ya think ?
> 
> http://www.thefield.co.uk/gundogs/268183/Pick_up_points_on_retrieving.html
> http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/530065/Gundog_training_video_Get_Back_command.html
> ...


Dear John,

Thank your for stalking me.

xoxoxoxox

Alec


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> John,
> 
> I can't see any really stereotypical short legged, heavy, blocky head dogs in those links.
> 
> ...


My post # 15

"_There are two types of Labradors, the English Labrador and the American Labrador. The English bred lab comes from English bred stock. Their general appearance is different. The English bred labs are heavier, thicker and blockier. ........................ _"

The dogs I saw in the mags I was directed to do the research in on the topic by Alex from which i posted in the links, fit more closely my discription, as postes above, of the British Lab than the discription posted of the American one

john


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Who the hell is "Alex"?

And why is he being stalked?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Ale*c*,

Apologies.

John, I disagree. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNwGQI8Yxuc&feature=related 

Eug


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Ale*c*,
> 
> Apologies.
> 
> ...


Thanks Colonel, it only bugs me when my stalkers use and x not you.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

John,

I agree with you - they look a little more British or English to me, but I am no expert. We've owned labs for years, but just now learning some of the differences.

By the way, I hope we don't put any discussion "to bed". The nature of a discussion board is to mix previous and new insights on topics. Just my opinion, though.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I'll second that a thousand times. I wouldn't trade my shaq pup for anything, I think a pre schooler could train that dog. He can mark too. I will say though that the calm dimeanor he had as a younger pup is wearing off now that he is getting a bit older (9 mo) but he is very controllable.



Howard N said:


> Nope, Bill Fruehling's dog, FC/AFC Wood River's Franchise, call name Shaq.
> 
> I've bred to him 3 times. Pups seem to learn and make good decisions. Most are calm, the one I know that isn't is still controllable and tractable. They like birds.
> 
> Damn, I sound like a commercial. But, I do like the pups I've gotten from Shaq.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Apologies.
> 
> John, I disagree. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNwGQI8Yxuc&feature=related
> 
> Eug


Eug, 

We appear to be at "loggerheads"

In retrospect there was nothing demeaning in my posted description of the British field labrador gun dog. 
In my estimation they typically are, as I noted, on the whole worked at a slightly heavier weight than their American counterpart and some are worked at substantially more so.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree

john


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Eug,
> 
> We appear to be at "loggerheads"
> 
> ...


I would think Eug has seen more than you have John, and you are confusing English type dogs which are heavier and are show dogs with British field dogs that tend to be slightly smaller than our field dogs but athletically muscular and not round.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I would think Eug has seen more than you have John, and you are confusing English type dogs which are heavier and are show dogs with British field dogs that tend to be slightly smaller than our field dogs but athletically muscular and not round.



The links to 
http://www.thefield.co.uk/gundogs/26...etrieving.html
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/...k_command.html
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/...is_winter.html
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gallerie...oting-pictures
appear to indicate otherwise 

john


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Actually I wouldn't have one of these stereotypical skinny snipe nosed yappy whining over-amped US trial dogs within a thousand miles of the joint.
> 
> Eug


Decisions, decisions. Which one to go with? Do you want the ugly skinny snipe nosed U.S. field trial dog like the one below?










Or do you go with the classic good looking British Gentleman's dog like the one below?


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## stevehaun (Nov 1, 2010)

My old YLM is 1/4 english. He barks with a funny accent and refuses to celebrate the 4th of July. While all that is bothersome, it is his propensity to wear tweed whilst hunting that bugs the crap out of me...


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Loved the last two posts!! Some of us do look better in tweeds than others ... see below










John, The movies I see of US Trails and HTs show dogs that to my mind are just about the same as I see everyday in the field. Final word.

Eug


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Having personally worked a UK Field Champion and other dogs imported directly from Wales, I can tell you that NOT ONE of them looked like a conformation bred dog.

But perhaps the clients lied to me as to the origins of their dogs.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My question is when exactly do English bred dogs, become considered American Bred dogs, 1, 2, 3, 4 generations? If your purchasing one said English bred dog in PA or CA or any of the 50+ states, from breeders who have been breeding these dogs in the U.S. for generations, can they really be considered English? Most likely they've never been trialed nor trained in the British style, we don't hunt that way in the U.S. I don't think most of them even have UKC registration #'s.  Just the Grade school if your born in the U.S. your a U.S. citizen argument.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

This is the first time this has been talked about on this forum.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> My question is when exactly do English bred dogs, become considered American Bred dogs, 1, 2, 3, 4 generations? If your purchasing one said English bred dog in PA or CA or any of the 50+ states, from breeders who have been breeding these dogs in the U.S. for generations, can they really be considered English? Most likely they've never been trialed nor trained in the British style, we don't hunt that way in the U.S. I don't think most of them even have UKC registration #'s.  Just the Grade school if your born in the U.S. your a U.S. citizen argument.


The breeders refer to them as "English Type"


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> The breeders refer to them as "English Type"


What does an "English Type" field dog look like ?

john


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

john fallon said:


> What does an "English Type" field dog look like ?
> 
> john


Google "English type (or Style) Labrador Breeder" and you will see lots-short legs, thick, "block head" (I hate that description) thick coat. Most originated from imports from Sandylands with Dickendall back there.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Here is a little history on the origins of the Labrador breed:​ 
*Beginnings of the Labrador Breed*​ 
By the mid-1700s, the appearance of the flintlock fowling piece followed by the invention of the percussion lock in the early 1800s led to the rise of the age of sporting arms and pursuit of fowl by the British gentry. The pursuit of birds drove up the demand for sporting dogs. The British aristocracy began to breed sporting dogs to complement their shooting. Two notable gentlemen established early kennels breeding Labrador retrievers. The fifth Duke of Buccleuch established his Labrador kennel in Scotland in the 1830’s. He probably obtained his St. John’s dogs from Greenock Harbor in Scotland or from Tyne or Tweedmouth on the Northeast coast of England. The fifth Duke was also the first to use the name “Labrador” in a written communication. He wrote a letter in 1839 in which he referred to his “Labrador” Moss accompanying him on his yacht on a trip to Naples, with the 10th Lord Home and his “Labrador” Drake. The earliest photograph of a Labrador was of the Duke of Buccleuch’s Nell taken in 1867 when Nell was about 12 years old. In the picture Nell exhibits the white tips on her toes characteristic of the St John’s Water dog.
In addition to the 5th Duke of Buccleuch, the 2nd Earl of Malmesbury was the other major player in the establishment of the Labrador breed. The Earl lived in southern England about 4 miles from the port of Poole, where he obtained his foundation stock of St John’s Waterdogs. He imported dogs from Newfoundland as early as 1809 and established an excellent breeding program in the early 1800s. The 2nd Earl died in 1841 and his son the 3rd Earl of Malmesbury kept the kennel going, which proved to be a fortunate occurrence for the breed. As result of a chance meeting around 1880 with the 6th Duke of Buccleuch, the 3rd Earl gave Buccleuch some dogs from his kennel. These dogs included Ned (born in 1882) and Avon (born in 1885), two of the foundation sires of modern Labradors.
The 3rd Earl of Malmesbury died in 1889 and his kennel died out shortly thereafter leaving Buccleuch to carry on the strain. The 3rd Earl did leave this comment In a letter written to the 6th Duke of Buccleuch about 1887:​ 

_“We always called mine Labrador dogs and I have kept the breed as pure as I could from the first I had from Poole, at that time carrying on a brisk trade with Newfoundland. The real breed may be known by their having a close coarse coat which turns the water off like oil, above all, a tail like an otter.”​_ 

Lorna Countess Howe was very early into the working Labrador world. She began running Labradors in field trials in 1914 and continued judging and competing in field trial and bench shows most of her life. Concerning her research for her 1957 book, The Popular Labrador Retriever, she quotes a cutting dated May, 1869, taken from a paper called the Country House:​ 

_“Sixty or seventy years ago there was considerable trade between Poole in Dorset and Labrador, and it is a fact that by these trading vessels the breed (Labradors) was first brought to England and that excellent sportsman, the then Earl of Malmesbury, became possessed of them. So highly was he pleased was he with their work, especially in water, that he kept them until his death. About that time, or perhaps a little later, the Duke of Buccleuch, the Earl of Home (who died in 1841) and Lord John Scott imported some from Labrador. They were kept pure for many years.”​_ 
The end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th brought the increasing popularity of Labradors and the advent of retriever field trials to maintain breeding selection.​ 



*Labradors in America*​ 
Labradors came late to America. The first Labrador was registered in the American Kennel Club in 1917. During the Roaring Twenties an influx of Labradors occurred. They came as part of the packages imported by wealthy Americans enamored of British Aristocracy. The Americans basically imported the British sport of game bird shooting, with its birds, dogs, and gamekeeper/dog trainers. Some of the major figures involved were: 

W. Averell Harriman – Arden kennels- Trainers were Tom Briggs and Jim Cowie
Jay F. Carlisle - Wingan Kennels – Trainer was Dave Elliot 
Mr. and Mrs. Marshall Field – Caumsett Kennels – Trainer was Douglas Marshall
Robert Goelet – Glenmere – Trainers were Colin MacFarlane and Jock Munro

They put on four and five-day shooting parties with driven pheasants and flighted ducks. Fancy luncheons and formal dinner parties punctuated the shooting. These activities led to the formation of the Labrador Retriever Club in 1931 and the licensing of the first retriever trial by the AKC. That first field trial was held at Robert Goelet’s Glenmere Estate on Monday December 21, 1931. The trial was won by Mrs. Marshall Fields’ Carl of Bogshurst handled by Mrs. Fields. 2nd was Mrs. Fields’ Odds On handled by Mr. Fields. The dogs that these early Labrador enthusiasts imported from England and Scotland became the foundation stock of the American Labrador. This first field trial was dominated by Labradors as has since remained the case for subsequent retriever trials.
Within 10 years, the number of field trials expanded to 21 field trials in 1941. World War II tended to limit growth of field trials during and after the war years. The year 1946 saw 30 field trials and that number grew to 100 by 1958. Post-war field trials saw a significant increase in entrants and the larger numbers drove a change from the British field trial model to today’s AKC rules. Blind retrieves with whistle stopping and hand signals became very important to the judges. The late 40s and 50s brought a change from the dog doing most of the work shifting to the handler being the central figure.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the history lesson Robert, I always love to read about the history of labs and the people who helped make them what they are today.


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks for the information on the Labrador Breed, Robert. More breeders/trainers in the U.S. and Canada need to read this history lesson so they fully understand the breed and it's history. Robert Milner has spent many years studying the Labrador Retriever, we can learn a lot from him.

I will share this history with my club members up here in Canada.

James
British Labrador Retriever Association (Canada)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I ran across this on Chris Winceks FB:









DOB 1931

"Eng. & Am. CH. Banchory Trump of Wingan was owned by Jay Carlisle and trained by his legendary gamekeeper and kennel manager, Dave Elliot. The photograph is courtesy of Mr. Elliot's book, The Labrador Retriever, published in 1936. 

What is most interesting is to compare the early representative dogs in this country to the representative dogs of today. *Trump had obviously received his Championship both here and in England, and no doubt was considered a proper Labrador during his lifetime -- in both countries*. Notably, comparing his overall type to dogs of today, Trump could certainly be mistaken for a good looking modern field trial dog.

We can learn from this. Those of us who have faulted field trialers for creating a "distinctly American type" should take a careful look at this photograph. If any area of the fancy has preserved the original Labrador, it is today's trialers! Likewise, Trump resembles the English field trial dogs of today far more than he does today's English bench dogs.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Very interesting history and photos. It appears what some call "English type" is a good description of a certain lab look, but may not be based in historical English breeding when talking about hunting lines.

The look of the English type is very different from what American type labs are usually thought of, but I wonder if there is as clear of a difference in average temperment between the two types?


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

From visiting Robert's dogs and being around other Brits, then being around U.S. breed dogs... Up front, the only real difference I really notice is Brits are just a little more low key(not a bad thing) and our locals tend to be amp'd up a little more(also not bad). Both are practical in thier use/purpose and are beautiful animals. Heck, I'm glad they don't all look exactly the same. That would be boring if your dog looked just like mine!!!!!!

That's a good looking dog, Erin...


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

If a British lab is whelped in Texas does the state subsidise the training fees?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

I think we underestimate the variability of the early Labs in terms of shape and size. The Banchory dog in Erins Edge's post above came out of the same kennel as this fellow, Banchory Bolo.








A lot of hunting folks today would decry his conformation, but remember the splendid Lorna, Countess Howe, the Banchory kennel owner looked for dogs that could both show and work. Bolo may well horrify some, but to me he looks a really strong middling sized dog with muscle and bone to spare and a big engine. Just looking at him you know he could swim like an otter. I'd have him.

'andsome is as 'andsome does my 'andsomes!

Eug

PS Bolo is said to be the foundation sire of most of the chocolates around today but I have no real knowledge of that stuff.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

And carry the largest of fine sky carp with ease.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

DMA said:


> If a British lab is whelped in Texas does the state subsidise the training fees?


I just called Gov Perry...He says yes, how could we turn away someone?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> I think we underestimate the variability of the early Labs in terms of shape and size. The Banchory dog in Erins Edge's post above came out of the same kennel as this fellow, Banchory Bolo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is more info on Bolo and Chocolates
http://www.lorkenfarms.com/banchory_bolo.htm

http://www.lorkenfarms.com/chocolate_lab_lines.htm


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

I was speaking to a fellow Australian who imports labrador stock for our Government's breeding program. Travelled to the US, UK,Europe. Saw some marvellous dogs, with working traits and genetic health they require. One favourite was a dog (and his GET) in Poland.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Aussie said:


> I was speaking to a fellow Australian who imports labrador stock for our Government's breeding program. Travelled to the US, UK,Europe. Saw some marvellous dogs, with working traits and genetic health they require. One favourite was a dog (and his GET) in Poland.


What did he look like Aussie? We saw a Polish import compete in a JH test this summer and he was definately overdone huge-bigger than the typical English style here. He was from California and the trainer said he had taken 8# off him and he had more to go. He almost looked Newfy.


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## Jessica Payne (Mar 19, 2011)

Ducko said:


> My question is...
> Which lab gets bigger?
> Which has more energy/drive ?
> I want the toughest of the tough.


you want a good ol Made in America Lab


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

We have seen some HT/ Field trial labs of late that are not very tall, but also thin bodied and almost wispy looking. The trainers have success with them in HT, but they don't really fit either the blocky English, or larger American types.

Is this unusual or are there many labs out there like this? These are built almost like English pointers, but shorter, black, with short tails and pointier noses.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

All I look for in a lab is .......
1. Good build
2. fast
3. good nose
4. trainability
5. ZERO NOISE (no excuses)
6. puts on a good hunt

I have five labs of my own, and if I could get all of this in one dog I would be happy. I don't care where they are from .


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> What did he look like Aussie? We saw a Polish import compete in a JH test this summer and he was definately overdone huge-bigger than the typical English style here. He was from California and the trainer said he had taken 8# off him and he had more to go. He almost looked Newfy.


Visiting their breeding headquarters tomorrow, and will ask for pedigree. Photo also. He will be working lines, not show.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

ErinsEdge,

Send me your Email and I will attach information. Maybe the UK trialers and breeders sent their too hyper, noise prone, fidget, field dogs to Poland?. Supposed to be some "choice" labs there.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

these British dogs don't look to blocky to me I think we should just stick to the show/field separation
http://drakeshead.com/stud_dogs.asp


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some from Belgium
http://www.blackthorn.hu/keret.htm


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

And some from Wales too! 

Just down the road from me http://www.threevalleysgundogs.co.uk/


















And just for the nay sayers on health issues, here's the scoop on the Fox red dog above. The black fellow is a FTCh.









Eug


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## 3seasons (Feb 23, 2011)

I like american but i have a few friends with british that are real nice.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Storm is out of Tibea Duckflight who was sired by Buccleuch Oak. I don't pretend that this makes hera better retriever but I do think its awesome to have a bloodline directly traced to the original labs. 
She is 10 months and doing great. 

As for what to get, find parents that have the attributes that you want and grab a pup. I am a fan of all of them but have found a Brit breeder that offers whatI like.


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## Tman22 (Oct 6, 2011)

I like a good cross show dog on one side and field dong on the other. Makes a beautiful well balanced puppy.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Tman22 said:


> I like a good cross show dog on one side and field dong on the other. Makes a beautiful well balanced puppy.


Maybe. Just as likely to produce an ugly dawg that won't hunt.

We ain't mixing paint here regards

Bubba


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

*TMAN22* wrote: I like a good cross show dog on one side and field dong on the other. Makes a beautiful well balanced puppy.


Bubba said:


> Maybe. Just as likely to produce an ugly dawg that won't hunt.
> 
> We ain't mixing paint here regards
> 
> Bubba


You had the opportunity to really run with his spelling faux pas Bubba...I'm a bit disappointed with your cautious answer.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

blind ambition said:


> I like a good cross show dog on one side and field dong on the other. Makes a beautiful well balanced puppy.
> 
> 
> You had the opportunity to really run with his spelling faux pas Bubba...I'm a bit disappointed with your cautious answer.


Not necessarily. Bubba is right. A straight outcross often has to be bred back to field to get uniformity, at least once, if not twice iff the dog is pure bench breeding. If you breed a field to a bench dog mixed with field that produces good dogs in the field you may get what you want but a straight bench dog with no field titles in the pedigree you can get zip. If it were that easy to get what you would want, it would be done more.


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