# Why all the hate for Pros?



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Even if it's disguised, there seems to be a lot of people on here who don't appreciate Pro trainers, or are resentful that Pro trainers bring a lot of dogs to their hunt test. I don't get it. Without the help of an Idaho Pro Mark Henry, I would have never even known about this sport, much less joined a club, ran and titled multiple dogs. Every Pro I have worked with was a sort of mentor to me. They helped get me hooked in the game, then helped me solve problems with my dogs when they were encountered.

I have often marveled at the tough life style a Pro endures day in day out. It makes farming or ranching look easy. Up before dawn to air dogs, know how to air dogs without a fight ensuing, feed said dogs, clean kennels all before a lot of us have left for work. Then train all day, coach day training clients, manage and maintain training properties, deal with first aid or medical issues, air, feed and air again before putting the dogs to bed after dark. Then be polite when clients call during a late dinner. As for running a truck of dogs at a hunt test, they travel constantly keeping an eye open for the most convenient safe place to air, sleep poorly in a crappy motel, eat bad road food, bounce back and forth between stakes trying to keep everybody happy at the hunt test, constantly evaluate and analyze test and run the best you can, then at the end of the day, air and feed a whole truck of dogs. Finally before dinner they make happy calls to owners who's dogs did well and sad, but informative calls who's dogs failed for one reason or another. Talk about a thankless job! I sure wouldn't want it.

As for those absentee owners, remember that even though they may be at home working to pay the bills, they are still getting hooked on the game, learning from weekend training with their Pro and will one day be out there running their own dogs and helping you run a hunt test.

John


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

True story


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Nothing wrong with pros.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

John : I actually had this conversation with Clint on Sunday, and have had the same conversation with Lanse on more than one occasion ...but to preface the conversation you must remember we grew up or were introduced to the FT game when the Amateur "dominated" the game, back then there were more amateurs that ran and won Opens..but dynamic has changed, you have to look no further that count the number of PRTA events that are on the calendar

In an effort to compete on and in National events,people have sought to use a pro in various levels of training,some like Lanse only use a pro to start their dogs, some like Clint have used a pro to run their dogs when their business life doesnt allow them to, and then some use a pro full time like a Bill Freuhling and meet them at the FT on the weekend to run the Amateur stake...

In many ways the amateur has fed the "monster" and now they dont know how to deal with it...people want to win..bottom line...they will use whatever tools they need to get there...unfortunately there is that "pure amateur" out there who cant afford the luxury of a pro trainer...they dont really hate the player, they hate the game...but its the pro that catches their anger....my $.02


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Bon I agree, but I was directing this more to the hunt test guys, some of who seemed to think Pros were the problem not the solution.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

I've had dogs and I have a pro trained dog. God bless the pro trainer that can show you what a well bred pup can actually accomplish!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

John sounds like a bit of the same thing. People have gone out and gotten a pro to run their HT or HRC dog. I don`t have an issue with it and cannot see what the problem would be. I would hope in those two venues however the owners do learn over time to run their own dog. That is what I think would be fun. And the pro can really assist them towards that if they feel a little intimidated or are working and don`t have time etc JMO. Like I say to me it does not matter. Nothing wrong with it. I will always run my own dogs and I am sure there are others that will do the same.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

I know very little about Training.

However when it comes to Pro's. i value every word.

What I don't like about Pro's is their OBNOXIOUS Customers.

(MY) Pro this, (MY) Pro that, (MY) Pro does it this way, (MY) Pro does it that way, (MY) Pro feeds this.

MY PRO MY PRO MY PRO …. Ahhhhhhhh!



It's like (THEIR) Pro is also their Alternate Personality and they feel the need to express to everyone what (THEIR) Pro thinks and does for everything. I've seen some not even speak for themselves and simply speak almost exclusively on behalf of what (THEIR) Pro does.

Oh you introduce TT to your pup this way? (MY) Pro doesn't. 
Your training pond doesn’t look like (MY) Pro’s….

WHO CARES!?!?

Ok, just wanted to get that out. 

/rant

Cheers!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Pros in my opinion have elevated the level and standard in the hunt test game. Pros and pro trained amateur handlers have taken the training slop out of the AKC hunt tests in general. The same was true in the field trial game from the bygone days of old. Experienced judging elevated the training level required, making professional trainers meet the demand of training for the tests. Is it all good, some would argue the amateur trainers/handlers put the events on for the benefit of professionally trained dogs and multiple owned dogs. The pros contribute nothing to the event outside of entries. They can and do judge in the AKC hunt tests, but, prohibited from judging field trials. Some pros in some regions bring help to the trials, but, they are probably in the minority. I believe the good outweighs the bad, my opinion.


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## kerdmier (Jul 17, 2012)

Only know a few Pros but they have helped me in many ways and continue to help. Thanks Mossy Pond Retrievers, Brad Arrington and Lee Howard


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

In other news, last update 5 amateur handled dogs remained in the last series of the Grand, 5 out of 69 remaining dogs, seems a little skewed, I hope they all pass, and now back to your regularly scheduled program


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Lots of people work hard. Put in 10-12 hour days the week of a HT/FT so they can take a half day or Friday off to work all day Friday, Sat and Sunday. A job is a job.


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## Bill Slutsky (Mar 6, 2013)

Where would all of us 'amateurs' be without the 'PROS' ??? Wouldn't even have books or DVD's to train by..or much less an event HT / FT to compete in, with the sport that we all love so much !!!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> In other news, last update 5 amateur handled dogs remained in the last series of the Grand, 5 out of 69 remaining dogs, seems a little skewed, I hope they all pass, and now back to your regularly scheduled program


Are saying the judging is biased or just that the test are so hard only a Pro has skill enough to pass? It does seem way skewed, more so than most Opens I have run.

John


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## SD Lab (Mar 14, 2003)

I think all trials should be judged by a pro and an amatuer.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

John, it's the same as all the folks that "hate" the Yankees when they are hot... Or Mike Tyson when he was in his prime (though he did give a few legitemate reasons as well)... or any number of the top AM's in the game in various regions that feel the scorn from time to time of folks that can't quite get to that level... 

Everybody (not really everybody, it just seems that way) "hates" on the guys on top. It's that way in just about any endeavor... Human nature.... Instead of training harder... envy takes over.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Lots of people work hard. Put in 10-12 hour days the week of a HT/FT so they can take a half day or Friday off to work all day Friday, Sat and Sunday. A job is a job.


I think it's this in a nut-shell, Pros get paid to do all that dog training and running, the Amateurs work a full week then volunteers their time and effort to go out and throw for a guy who's getting paid to be there. Then they have to adapt, a every stake, change running order and end-up waiting for Pros to show-up and run. Sometimes even take flack from a Pro for not throwing the birds right, or missing a flyer. While the Pro seems to be leisurely moving from stake to stake, leisurely airing dogs, perhaps going out to lunch rather than showing up to his next stake, yes it has happened. Everyone else is set up in the field, lucky to grab a sandwich. Amateurs throwing birds, gets bullied into quick run your dog, so you can go out and throw birds, when the pro shows up. For the Amateur its a volunteer slave-labor hobby for the pro it's a job-pay check. Two different mentalities that are designed to breed hostility. I know 2-3 Pros that are givers, they do all they can to help out, they go quickly to stakes, and shoot-help out when not running dogs. Still I know others that are entirely takers, slow movers, the first one's off the property if there dogs go out, the ones trying to move running order so they can leave (to run SH-JH when SH-JH has been over for hrs), the ones who show-up at certain stakes to stack the deck on when they run, despite marshal instructions. A single bad apple leaves a bad taste much longer than a good one.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

The first field trial in the US was run in 1931. It was run under British Kennel Club rules which do not differentiate between amateur and professional. US field trials continued to run under British rule for ten years. In the UK professionals regularly judge field trials and serve on the Retriever Advisory Committee to the Kennel Club. In the US in the early 40s a small number of people who controlled the retriever field trial sector rewrote the rule book defining the new classification of "amateur" and excluded professionals from judging. That left the field trial system totally in the hands of the newly defined amateurs. The field trial game was thus separated from its corporate body of knowledge, the professional trainers.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

rmilner said:


> The first field trial in the US was run in 1931. It was run under British Kennel Club rules which do not differentiate between amateur and professional. US field trials continued to run under British rule for ten years. In the UK professionals regularly judge field trials and serve on the Retriever Advisory Committee to the Kennel Club.* In the US in the early 40s a small number of people who controlled the retriever field trial sector rewrote the rule book defining the new classification of "amateur" and excluded professionals from judging. That left the field trial system totally in the hands of the newly defined amateurs.* The field trial game was thus separated from its corporate body of knowledge, the professional trainers.



and according to some those same people are still in charge at the RAC....:razz::razz:


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I think it's hard for people who don't have a business background to understand that more entries = more profit for the club which should, in turn, lead to more events and amenities for club members.


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

If it wasn't for the pros, our hunt tests wouldn't come close to being profitable. The guys I have met are very hard working. I don't think I could do it. I have the upmost respect for them.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I think it's this in a nut-shell, Pros get paid to do all that dog training and running, the Amateurs work a full week then volunteers their time and effort to go out and throw for a guy who's getting paid to be there. Then they have to adapt, a every stake, change running order and end-up waiting for Pros to show-up and run. Sometimes even take flack from a Pro for not throwing the birds right, or missing a flyer. While the Pro seems to be leisurely moving from stake to stake, leisurely airing dogs, perhaps going out to lunch rather than showing up to his next stake, yes it has happened. Everyone else is set up in the field, lucky to grab a sandwich. Amateurs throwing birds, gets bullied into quick run your dog, so you can go out and throw birds, when the pro shows up. For the Amateur its a volunteer slave-labor hobby for the pro it's a job-pay check. Two different mentalities that are designed to breed hostility. I know 2-3 Pros that are givers, they do all they can to help out, they go quickly to stakes, and shoot-help out when not running dogs. Still I know others that are entirely takers, slow movers, the first one's off the property if there dogs go out, the ones trying to move running order so they can leave (to run SH-JH when SH-JH has been over for hrs), the ones who show-up at certain stakes to stack the deck on when they run, despite marshal instructions. A single bad apple leaves a bad taste much longer than a good one.


Out here there is probably a higher percentage of bad apple amateurs as pros, after a while you know who they are, always sandbagging then showing up to run magically right after the wind shifts or the sun comes out making that long gun more visible. I don't like that kind of unsporting behavior pro or amateur. I know from running field trials that Pros don't have the luxury of moving leisurely, they are run ragged moving from stake to stake cooperating with marshals and trying to get all their dogs run. 

I remember a story when my Pro was on the road running my young dog at the time in a Qual, he was pleading to be let go from the Open to run my dog in the last series of the Q. The Open judge wouldn't let him go even though it was obvious the Open wasn't going to finish that day. He had to stick around to run his Open dog then race over to the Qual. By then everybody at the Qual had been waiting hours for this last dog and it was so dark you could see flames come out of the gun. My dog didn't get a good look at the long bird and hunted it dropping him to a second place. Pros are at the mercy of the marshal for good or bad.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I think it's this in a nut-shell, Pros get paid to do all that dog training and running, the Amateurs work a full week then volunteers their time and effort to go out and throw for a guy who's getting paid to be there. Then they have to adapt, a every stake, change running order and end-up waiting for Pros to show-up and run. Sometimes even take flack from a Pro for not throwing the birds right, or missing a flyer. While the Pro seems to be leisurely moving from stake to stake, leisurely airing dogs, perhaps going out to lunch rather than showing up to his next stake, yes it has happened. Everyone else is set up in the field, lucky to grab a sandwich. Amateurs throwing birds, gets bullied into quick run your dog, so you can go out and throw birds, when the pro shows up. For the Amateur its a volunteer slave-labor hobby for the pro it's a job-pay check. Two different mentalities that are designed to breed hostility. I know 2-3 Pros that are givers, they do all they can to help out, they go quickly to stakes, and shoot-help out when not running dogs. Still I know others that are entirely takers, slow movers, the first one's off the property if there dogs go out, the ones trying to move running order so they can leave (to run SH-JH when SH-JH has been over for hrs), the ones who show-up at certain stakes to stack the deck on when they run, despite marshal instructions. A single bad apple leaves a bad taste much longer than a good one.


 I have seen am's behave the same way. I think when there are large groups of people in one area we are going to feel mistreated by someone sooner or later. Some of us like to catagorize and blame one portion of the offenders. Some of us realize that there are good and bad people in every crowd and it has nothing to do with how we earn a living. Some of even try to focus on the good around us and not stew over how others act.(a much more stress free way to go through life)


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

There are a few pros that come with an arrogant attitude that leave some feeling looked down upon. These are few and far between that do nothing to grow the sport. Thus comes the stigma. I love my pro. He is welcoming and helpful.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I don't have a pro but I do train with some. All of the pros that I associate with are great guys. Pros are people and people are different. In my profession there are folks that are a pleasure to work with and there are those despised by our colleagues. So it goes with any chosen career, including dog training.

Tim Doane (posted above) is a pro and he is a great guy.

Lonnie Spann


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## Rick Vaughan (Sep 4, 2012)

_*I probably wouldn't be in this sport or own two titled dogs without the help of Richard Reese here in NC. He took each of my dogs for 4 months and got them running in spite of all the inane issues I had created on my own. Even today I'm welcome to bring the girls down anytime to his facility and "get a tune-up" for the girls as well as some help with "my" dancing feet. The "good" pros I've met in this sport far outnumber the ones I will avoid at all costs! My 2 cents.*_


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Even if it's disguised, there seems to be a lot of people on here who don't appreciate Pro trainers, or are resentful that Pro trainers bring a lot of dogs to their hunt test. I don't get it. Without the help of an Idaho Pro Mark Henry, I would have never even known about this sport, much less joined a club, ran and titled multiple dogs. Every Pro I have worked with was a sort of mentor to me. They helped get me hooked in the game, then helped me solve problems with my dogs when they were encountered.
> 
> I have often marveled at the tough life style a Pro endures day in day out. It makes farming or ranching look easy. Up before dawn to air dogs, know how to air dogs without a fight ensuing, feed said dogs, clean kennels all before a lot of us have left for work. Then train all day, coach day training clients, manage and maintain training properties, deal with first aid or medical issues, air, feed and air again before putting the dogs to bed after dark. Then be polite when clients call during a late dinner. As for running a truck of dogs at a hunt test, they travel constantly keeping an eye open for the most convenient safe place to air, sleep poorly in a crappy motel, eat bad road food, bounce back and forth between stakes trying to keep everybody happy at the hunt test, constantly evaluate and analyze test and run the best you can, then at the end of the day, air and feed a whole truck of dogs. Finally before dinner they make happy calls to owners who's dogs did well and sad, but informative calls who's dogs failed for one reason or another. Talk about a thankless job! I sure wouldn't want it.
> 
> ...


You have the most amazing ability to take ONE data point and extrapolate that into an entire thesis.

Modern Marvel regards

Bubba


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Bubba said:


> You have the most amazing ability to take ONE data point and extrapolate that into an entire thesis.
> 
> Modern Marvel regards
> 
> Bubba


Thanks I guess.

John


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

Im new to the game and hooked...needed a pro to help correct all my mistakes..The best dont just hand you over the keys, they teach you to drive...they can parade all the pups they want at a test, I learn by watching


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

My 9 month old pup is with a trainer now. He doesn't train for the dog games. He trains gun dogs. I just decided that I want to run tests with my pup so I went to a seminar last weekend held by a local pro. It was $30 to watch or run as many dogs as you wanted. Some people ran 3 dogs. The pro asked what you would like to work on or what exactly you would like him to coach you on. This thing went on for 9 hours. This guy was great. He worked with every dog/handler with enthuisiasm. It was a really great experience. He hooked me.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

There are 2 Pros I have had close association with in the dog games.

The first, was a guy I met at HRC hunt tests , as I ran the dog I had trained myself, and with hel from a group from the local HRC club..
This Pro always seemed to be at the line with me in Finished tests. I know now why,, but I wont say. He always took time to talk to me at the line and help me to relax, and have fun. I cant count the number of times he would be on the Honor bucket as I came to the line,, and he would announce to me " We're just gonna shoot some ducks today Gooser, and have some fun! Ya ready to get things going?" It helped me a TON!!!
He always took the time to come congratulate me if we passed. He took time to offer advice also... He has been just a great help to me.. When my Maddie died suddenly,, he called and offered me "Pick of a litter that was due.. I cant express how much this guy has helped me along..

The second Pro is the one I get to train with on a regular basis. I cant say enough about her either. She ,for some reason took me under her wing,, and helped me with my new puppy with all steps that the Yard consists of. I have agin started to enjoy training.. It is because of her. She has a way about her that makes you think and TRY and improve.. I am very happy with the Pup I have, and I owe it ALL to her..

These two people are Pro's at what they do for a living,, their reall attribute are them being beautiful people!!

I thank them both........... fer puttin up with me.... hard duty I am sure!!

Gooser


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

One of my biggest pet peeves are people who judge amateurs and pros with different standards in an Open All-Age stake.

That is all, carry on.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I know 2-3 Pros that are givers, they do all they can to help out, they go quickly to stakes, and shoot-help out when not running dogs. Still I know others that are entirely takers, slow movers, the first one's off the property if there dogs go out, the ones trying to move running order so they can leave (to run SH-JH when SH-JH has been over for hrs), the ones who show-up at certain stakes to stack the deck on when they run, despite marshal instructions. A single bad apple leaves a bad taste much longer than a good one.


Sounds like to me that "pro/amateur" is substituting for "giver/taker" to the detriment of the discussion. Obviously there are pros and amateurs in both categories. 

My dog has been with 2 different pros and I have been very impressed by both of them. I have also talked to several others at the hunt tests I have been to so far, and every one of them has spent time talking to me that they could have spent doing something else. And, unless you have a lot more time, money, and kennel space than I do, getting to work with a pro is about the quickest way to start learning how to read dogs. They have a lot more experience at it and can quickly teach it to you - at least to the extent that can be taught.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I hate them because they are beautiful


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I've been with my Pro for 9 years now. Bought my first dog from him and have had 2 others with him. He has my latest pup and we are doing great. He's definitely one of my best friends! I have no disdain for Pro's in general at all. I know quite a few of them from my area because I'm at most of the hunt tests and over the last 8-9 years have gotten to know most of them pretty well. I have great respect for the work they do and their knowledge. As others have said theirs is not a fun life. Being gone most weekends living in hotel rooms, eating restaurant food often, getting up early and going to bed late. Not the most exciting day to say the least. One thing that ties all the good ones together is, it's all about the dogs, attitude they have.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I appreciate what both HT and FT pros bring to the table. A wealth of knowledge and experience which most share. The pro I work with has done every thing she can to help me read and work with dogs better even with the little she has to work with when it come to me. 

Jeff


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I like to sit next to pro at a test so he can tell me all the pitfalls. As one told me last year, he has 20 dogs and if he loses the 1st 2 or 3 not a big deal, I only have 1. Most Pros are very helpful to us ams. I think what the biggest discussion on the other thread was not if people liked pros or not, it was more of dog numbers and how if they limited the number of dogs one person could handle it would help out clubs. Some clubs need a pro to bring in 20 dogs, other clubs cannot handle having to split the flgts. Now that AKC has allowed the clubs to limit dogs things will be better.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

To put a global perspective on it, British field trial rules (which are what we started with in 1931) put a two dog limit on the handler. They also put a 12 dog limit on a one-day trial and a 24 dog limit on a two-day trial.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

rmilner said:


> To put a global perspective on it, British field trial rules (which are what we started with in 1931) put a two dog limit on the handler. They also put a 12 dog limit on a one-day trial and a 24 dog limit on a two-day trial.


How do you screen who gets to run, assuming more people than 12 or 24 want to compete? I know entries are limited in AKC tracking dog events, I don't know how. Over here with 100 dog Opens (three days to complete) and 70 dog Amateurs (two days to complete) not uncommon, I can only dream of 24 dog trials, though our early Spring and late Fall North West trials are reasonably small.

John


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Why does everyone want 24 dog events? Doesn't 100 dogs provide a better opportunity for profit and enhance the social opportunities that go along with attending a trial or test? I have never understood this. More volume = better offset of fix costs which should then provide the ability to hire help for the mundane tasks, freeing up club members and participants to relax, watch the dog work and socialize between runs. 

If you signed up for a 3 day event hoping to win it, you should be planning to hang out the three days anyway so... what's the big ol rush to run a dog and get home?

And yes I have planted a blind for a 100 dog event and wrestled cock birds for the flier guns. I get what the work part is all about. I still don't get the desire to have these little events though given the economics.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Why does everyone want 24 dog events? Doesn't 100 dogs provide a better opportunity for profit and enhance the social opportunities that go along with attending a trial or test? I have never understood this. More volume = better offset of fix costs which should then provide the ability to hire help for the mundane tasks, freeing up club members and participants to relax, watch the dog work and socialize between runs.
> 
> If you signed up for a 3 day event hoping to win it, you should be planning to hang out the three days anyway so... what's the big ol rush to run a dog and get home?
> 
> And yes I have planted a blind for a 100 dog event and wrestled cock birds for the flier guns. I get what the work part is all about. I still don't get the desire to have these little events though given the economics.


Huge trials often start with an almost undoable (is that a word?) first series. Then after 75% of the dogs are gone, the next three series may be pretty normal... You may even place with a handle in the 4th series in some cases that would have gotten you tossed in the first series of that very same huge trial... 

It's not about being in a hurry to get home... To me it's more about having the time at the trial to do it right.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> Why does everyone want 24 dog events?


I have never actually seen one but it sounds nice to me. I think I would enjoy being one of 20 out of 24 called back to the land blind on Saturday afternoon than being one of 20 out of 85 starting the land blind on Sunday at 2 pm. Much better chance to keep playing


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Why does everyone want 24 dog events? Doesn't 100 dogs provide a better opportunity for profit and enhance the social opportunities that go along with attending a trial or test? I have never understood this. More volume = better offset of fix costs which should then provide the ability to hire help for the mundane tasks, freeing up club members and participants to relax, watch the dog work and socialize between runs.
> 
> If you signed up for a 3 day event hoping to win it, you should be planning to hang out the three days anyway so... what's the big ol rush to run a dog and get home?
> 
> And yes I have planted a blind for a 100 dog event and wrestled cock birds for the flier guns. I get what the work part is all about. I still don't get the desire to have these little events though given the economics.


I don't think anyone wants 24 dog trials, I hope you didn't get that from my post, I was just curious how the English limit their trials, seems like a lot of people would be left out. 

Regarding 100 dog Opens I personally don't like judging them, especially during the winter when days are short. There is no room for error on your test, at the end of your first series or combined land mark/blind, which will probably go past noon on Saturday, you need to drop way over half the dogs. Some judges are very good at setting up relatively quick test that get a lot of answers, that's the ideal, but I have seen some crazy-tricky stuff and or a lot of penciling out dogs to get the numbers down. There is no room for error in a hundred dog test, in a 70 dog Open, if your first test didn't get the answers you anticipated, no big deal, call them all back and move on. Personally I think a 65-70 dog Open and a fiftyish Amateur is perfect.

John

(edit) Along the same lines is judging a Canadian Open where you have one day to judge 32 or so dogs. No room for error as you have to finish by dark, they will need your grounds and workers to run the next stake first thing tomorrow morning. A lot of stress.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Why does everyone want 24 dog events? Doesn't 100 dogs provide a better opportunity for profit and enhance the social opportunities that go along with attending a trial or test? I have never understood this. More volume = better offset of fix costs which should then provide the ability to hire help for the mundane tasks, freeing up club members and participants to relax, watch the dog work and socialize between runs.
> 
> If you signed up for a 3 day event hoping to win it, you should be planning to hang out the three days anyway so... what's the big ol rush to run a dog and get home?
> 
> And yes I have planted a blind for a 100 dog event and wrestled cock birds for the flier guns. I get what the work part is all about. I still don't get the desire to have these little events though given the economics.


It's actually more like a stepped variable cost than a fixed cost. Once entries reach a certain point , you need a third set of judges (increased expense), more workers due to having 3 stakes going at once (more expense) and perhaps rent more grounds (more expense).

Thats probably just semantics though.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Those that hate pros only hate them until they need them.

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Bon I agree, but I was directing this more to the hunt test guys, some of who seemed to think Pros were the problem not the solution.


Ribbon envy? They have plenty of ribbons to go around. Why would anyone have an issue with a HT pro?

Evan


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

John,
In the UK there might be a hundred entries for a trial. The drawing a couple of weeks before the trial determines which 12 dogs will run as well as running order. 
In the US in the 70’s (there were 100-dog-open stakes then as well as today) an unwritten custom among judges was to try and set a test that would eliminate at least 50% of the open dogs in the first series. Generally most of the dogs running are capable of performing that first test if they are “on” that day, and also have a little luck.
Thus the Brits get the luck at the draw. The Americans get the luck at the first series. 
Both trials end up with a small enough number of dogs to comfortably judge in the last series. 

Retriever field trials originated in the uk in 1899 in the UK. Their original purpose was to facilitate breeding selection to produce better gundogs. Lorna, Countess Howe was involved very early in field trials, both as a competitor and as a judge. She wrote in the early 1950’s:

_"It should always be remembered that Trials were originally started to find out the best dogs for recovering game that is shot and to breed from these dogs to carry on such strains. ………… When I first ran dogs in Field Trials immediately after the 1914-1918 war one was expected to leave, as far as possible, game finding to the dog one was handling. In fact, it was impressed upon one that Field Trials were run to discover dogs that possessed the most natural ability. Of course, a wild dog, or a dog out of control, was penalized, but Judges paid most attention to dogs which displayed a game-finding ability greater than those which were trained to such perfection that their natural ability became subservient to reliance on their handler.It was always impressed on one that Retrievers were not sheep dogs, that their first and most important work was to find game – particularly wounded game. This is always of the greatest importance if only for humane reasons. At the present time dogs seem to rely much more on their handler’s direction than on their own nose and ability. This seems to me to be a pity, and if I were able to judge now (and many handlers must realize with relief that I am not able to!) I should heavily penalize any dog which could not find game without being placed on the absolute spot by his handler."_

It appears to me that here in the US retriever trials have become to some degree equal opportunity contests for handlers with a side contest for judges on who can engineer the test most efficient at eliminating dogs. The dogs and their game-finding ability seem to have been left behind.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> I don't think anyone wants 24 dog trials, I hope you didn't get that from my post, I was just curious how the English limit their trials, seems like a lot of people would be left out.
> 
> Regarding 100 dog Opens I personally don't like judging them, especially during the winter when days are short. There is no room for error on your test, at the end of your first series or combined land mark/blind, which will probably go past noon on Saturday, you need to drop way over half the dogs. Some judges are very good at setting up relatively quick test that get a lot of answers, that's the ideal, but I have seen some crazy-tricky stuff and or a lot of penciling out dogs to get the numbers down. There is no room for error in a hundred dog test, in a 70 dog Open, if your first test didn't get the answers you anticipated, no big deal, call them all back and move on. Personally I think a 65-70 dog Open and a fiftyish Amateur is perfect.
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense to me John. We're kind of off topic (my fault, sorry), although I guess pros showing up with a pile of dogs does affect the overall numbers.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't think anyone hates a Professional. I think folks get a real bad taste in their mouths from the ones who have the "Professional Dog Trainer" name tag on their shirts and a big fancy truck but, that stitching and truck is the only thing which says "Professional" when the person presents themselves to the general public.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

rmilner said:


> It appears to me that here in the US retriever trials have become to some degree equal opportunity contests for handlers with a side contest for judges on who can engineer the test most efficient at eliminating dogs. The dogs and their game-finding ability seem to have been left behind.


I was really enjoying the history Robert, right up until you made this silly statement.


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## coachmo (Apr 23, 2009)

It has been my experience at events that some people resent the fact that professional trainers receive "special" treatment in terms of running order regardless of the effect it has on the remaining handlers. I realize that professional trainers often run dogs in multiple stakes so it is important to work them into the running order but at times this seems to rubs others the wrong way. Sometimes rightfully so! It's hard to accommodate all of the participants so somebody is always gonna be mad!


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Robert I think that is BS propaganda you keep selling to people! I got two that I promise have a little game finding ability and are willing to go hunting with your best two any day to compare them. We can hunt ditch chickens or ducks doesn't matter to us. Your a great marketing guy I'll give you that! Chad Baker


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

rmilner said:


> John,
> In the UK there might be a hundred entries for a trial. The drawing a couple of weeks before the trial determines which 12 dogs will run as well as running order.
> In the US in the 70’s (there were 100-dog-open stakes then as well as today) an unwritten custom among judges was to try and set a test that would eliminate at least 50% of the open dogs in the first series. *Generally most of the dogs running are capable of performing that first test if they are “on” that day, and also have a little luck*.[/COLOR]
> Thus the Brits get the luck at the draw. The Americans get the luck at the first series.
> ...




I want to address your hard first series point without disagreeing totally. I believe that for the most part the first series should be very hard. It is my belief that all four series test different aspects, and though a big courage water test is usually deemed the toughest, I believe you get a better idea of marking ability with a difficult set of land marks. So removing weird tricky, or what I call ticky-tack test from the equation, I think the cream rises to the top, week after week in that first series. In other words I think that for the most part you will have the same top dogs doing well in that first series consistently.

I flat out disagree with your last sentence.

John


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Criquetpas said:


> Pros in my opinion have elevated the level and standard in the hunt test game. Pros and pro trained amateur handlers have taken the training slop out of the AKC hunt tests in general.....


 I agree.

Even though HT is "non-competitive", the fact remains that the quality of the dogs being brought to the line DOES change the game. 
It isn't intentional. It's just unavoidable.

I believe that many people don't like the bar being raised. 
And they then blame the Pros for influencing a higher standard.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I was really enjoying the history Robert, right up until you made this silly statement.



He is a troll when it comes to American Field trials. I would ignore his venom.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Horseshit!! THe level of the dogs being brought to the line has indeed improved over the years but it is MOSTLY due to improved knowledge and better understanding of the techniques and theories. Better use and understanding of electronic equipment and a more through approach to fundamentals. Yep that all was initiated by a few professional traineers and made widely available by electronic media but the idea of attributing the majority of the improvement to a handful of Kinko pros is flat out wrong. The 5 worst handlers that I know all take money for trainng dogs. One quick trip to Kinkos and anyone can be a "pro".

Whenever a team really smashes a test -it's a safe bet that it is a clue having Amature with a nice little dog and a good training group.

More to being professional than having a pretty truck regards

Bubba


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Hey, I didn't say that I think it's right.

I just said that I believe that's how many people feel. 
They aren't trying to win a HT. They just want to pass enough of them to earn the title.

Tougher tests, make that more difficult. 
So, they obviously aren't going to be a fan of whatever it is that they feel is contributing to Judges designing tougher tests.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Darn, I was going to complain about throwing birds for 30 dogs, coming out and finding I was moved in the running order from 41st to 60th... Sort of happens to me all the time for some reason, I was always thinking they were singling me out when I learned it was really those hateful Marshal's doing their dirty deeds and sucking up to those handsome Pro's!!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Byron Musick said:


> sucking up to those handsome Pro's!!


Maybe if you're over the age of 65 that applies... hahahha


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

A thread you wish would die.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Bon I agree, but I was directing this more to the hunt test guys, some of who seemed to think Pros were the problem not the solution.


I remember well the advent of Hunt Test in the very early 80's and one of the selling points was that one didn't need a Pro to be able to handle their dog in them. That they would resemble hunting conditions and that the dogs could do the work with only amatuer training. 

How things have changed. 

;-)


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Franco said:


> I remember well the advent of Hunt Test in the very early 80's and one of the selling points was that one didn't need a Pro to be able to handle their dog in them. That they would resemble hunting conditions and that the dogs could do the work with only amatuer training.
> 
> How things have changed.
> 
> ...


Not really, it is entirely possible to do as good a job as any hunt test pro if those ams will do the necessary homework and then do the sweat work. It gets old hearing that you must use a pro to be successful in hunt test. 99% of those who believe this to be true couldn't train a rocking horse let alone a dog. Everyone wants to chunk a bunch of chickens out on the ground and just pick them up. Most not all Pros, Ht/Ft train using concepts the dogs use for reference. They also don't force a round peg into a square hole like most Am's do. How many actual am's train at least 4 days per week correctly? Don't hate the Pro, Hate the game You created trying to keep up with your imaginary competitor.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Chad Baker said:


> Robert I think that is BS propaganda you keep selling to people! I got two that I promise have a little game finding ability and are willing to go hunting with your best two any day to compare them. We can hunt ditch chickens or ducks doesn't matter to us. Your a great marketing guy I'll give you that! Chad Baker


***Like***


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

rmilner said:


> John,
> In the UK there might be a hundred entries for a trial. The drawing a couple of weeks before the trial determines which 12 dogs will run as well as running order.
> In the US in the 70’s (there were 100-dog-open stakes then as well as today) an unwritten custom among judges was to try and set a test that would eliminate at least 50% of the open dogs in the first series. Generally most of the dogs running are capable of performing that first test if they are “on” that day, and also have a little luck.
> Thus the Brits get the luck at the draw. The Americans get the luck at the first series.
> ...




So have the british field trials changed in the last 100 years?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Raymond Little said:


> Not really, it is entirely possible to do as good a job as any hunt test pro if those ams will do the necessary homework and then do the sweat work. It gets old hearing that you must use a pro to be successful in hunt test. 99% of those who believe this to be true couldn't train a rocking horse let alone a dog. Everyone wants to chunk a bunch of chickens out on the ground and just pick them up. Most not all Pros, Ht/Ft train using concepts the dogs use for reference. *They also don't force a round peg into a square hole like most Am's do. *How many actual am's train at least 4 days per week correctly? Don't hate the Pro, Hate the game You created trying to keep up with your imaginary competitor.


Really?? Most Am's? I don't think so..........some sell dogs that don't meet their expectations or find another game that works for them. A smart dog owner knows when to throw in the towel or think outside the box. 

When it becomes all about the game and not about the dog at the end of my leash-I'm done. Pro's have no bearing on MY playing this game. As far as I'm concerned people who bash pros--well its just another excuse for their own failures.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Pals said:


> Really?? Most Am's? I don't think so..........some sell dogs that don't meet their expectations or find another game that works for them. A smart dog owner knows when to throw in the towel or think outside the box.
> 
> When it becomes all about the game and not about the dog at the end of my leash-I'm done. Pro's have no bearing on MY playing this game. As far as I'm concerned people who bash pros--well its just another excuse for their own failures.


Agree a ton!!!

Evan


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Exactly! Well said.



Pals said:


> When it becomes all about the game and not about the dog at the end of my leash-I'm done. Pro's have no bearing on MY playing this game. As far as I'm concerned people who bash pros--well its just another excuse for their own failures.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

In the main, most professionals are hard-working and dedicated individuals who really enjoy working with dogs and people. One has to be careful in selection of a dog trainer as there are a "few bad apples" and a few who have egos that far exceed their capabilities. Some just don't know their own "limitations". It is always smart to be wary of those who can "fix anything". Fortunately, the old gossip line has a way of weeding out the bad apples eventually. I am of the opinion that you can learn something from everyone and certainly appreciate all the positive, good training and help we've gotten over the last 40+ years from trainers from coast-to-coast. The pro is very much a part of the fabric of our sport!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

The pros I know are an asset to the game. Financially the games couldn't survive without them. Most are generous with advice, time and access to training grounds.

The true roadblock to amateur success is access to technical water. Most tests in my area are held on State owned or groomed, private ground. Technical water is a fact of life. IMO a MH is difficult if not impossible to attain without significant exposure to this type of water. 

The solution to the tech pond issue is usually a local pro or generous landowners. I and many others benefit from both.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

> _
> At the present time dogs seem to rely much more on their handler’s direction than on their own nose and ability. This seems to me to be a pity, and if I were able to judge now (and many handlers must realize with relief that I am not able to!) I should heavily penalize any dog which could not find game without being placed on the absolute spot by his handler."_
> 
> It appears to me that here in the US retriever trials have become to some degree equal opportunity contests for handlers with a side contest for judges on who can engineer the test most efficient at eliminating dogs. The dogs and their game-finding ability seem to have been left behind.


You can't be serious! If it was all about the dog and its natural talent, then why are dogs that are handled to marks dropped in both FT and HT? Of course, the blinds require a dog that handles well, but if a dog cannot mark, it won't even get to run the blinds. Now granted my FT experience consists of a handful of minor stakes, but I've seen enough to realize that an average to good well trained dog is going to do better finding the marks over a dog with outstanding natural ability but little or no training. Same thing in hunt tests, even though they're non competitive, the standards for today's Master tests are harder than 10 or 12 years ago,  because the dogs (and handlers) are better trained. What hasn't changed is the concept that we are seeking the best for breeding purposes.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Byron Musick said:


> Darn, I was going to complain about throwing birds for 30 dogs, coming out and finding I was moved in the running order from 41st to 60th... Sort of happens to me all the time for some reason, I was always thinking they were singling me out when I learned it was really those hateful Marshal's doing their dirty deeds and sucking up to those handsome Pro's!!


You're just too nice a person and people run all over you! Kathy needs to tough'n you up!


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Gary Southall said:


> You're just too nice a person and people run all over you! Kathy needs to tough'n you up!


Just no sliding sarcasm past you is there!! Oh yea, good luck at the hunt test this weekend!


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## Riverrun (Jun 8, 2004)

Chad Baker said:


> Robert I think that is BS propaganda you keep selling to people! I got two that I promise have a little game finding ability and are willing to go hunting with your best two any day to compare them. We can hunt ditch chickens or ducks doesn't matter to us. Your a great marketing guy I'll give you that! Chad Baker


Exactly!!!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

May be Sigmund Freud was on to something. giggle giggle

Pete


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

To understand the bad taste that a lot of folks have with Pro’s in hunt tests, you need to understand a little bit of what it takes for those events to be successful. It’s real easy to understand the financial portion of a clubs expenses, its dollars, cents and entry fees. But there are also expenses associated with the “human resources” that a club has at its disposal. Those human resources by and large are comprised of a clubs’ members.They donate their time and efforts to bring off a successful event when it’s their clubs turn to host an event.

This sport relies upon the existence of numerous non-proffit and not for profit clubs who host the various events around the country. Those clubs in turn rely on their memberships support to exist and perform the functions needed to operate. Those club members are comprised of dog Owners who have a deep love and respect for the dogs, the sport, and the community surrounding the sport. Their efforts make the whole thing work.

When you choose to play these games there is a cultural expectation from the others that play the game that you’re going to pay both the entry fee and that you’re going to pay the “Human Resource” portion by joining your local club and helping them when its their turn to host an event. 

Why do people have a bad taste in their mouth about Pro’s? 

Well, it really isn’t the Pro personally that has people upset, it is a growing segment of his/her client base that are the issue. They are Owners who bought a dog, hired the Pro to train their dog and pay them to run their dog. But, that is the limit of their involvement with the community. They are not members of my club, your club, or any club, anywhere. They pay the financial portion (the entry fee), but that’s it. They are nowhere to be seen when efforts are needed to help put on and manage an event. 

Perhaps another way to look at it, these folks are the members of your training group that show up late, run their dog and leaves. They aren’t there to help set up, take their turn in the field, or help tear down and pack up when the session is over. It’s all about them and that’s all that matters. The group is not going to tolerate their presence for very long.

This sport can only exist ifthe members of the community are actively participating in it.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^YUP!!!!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Right out of the park regards

Bubba


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Swampcollie said:


> This sport relies upon the existence of numerous non-proffit and not for profit clubs who host the various events around the country. Those clubs in turn rely on their memberships support to exist and perform the functions needed to operate. Those club members are comprised of dog Owners who have a deep love and respect for the dogs, the sport, and the community surrounding the sport. Their efforts make the whole thing work.
> 
> Well, it really isn’t the Pro personally that has people upset, it is a growing segment of his/her client base that are the issue. They are Owners who bought a dog, hired the Pro to train their dog and pay them to run their dog. But, that is the limit of their involvement with the community. They are not members of my club, your club, or any club, anywhere. They pay the financial portion (the entry fee), but that’s it. They are nowhere to be seen when efforts are needed to help put on and manage an event.
> 
> ...




Very well said, Swampcollie.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> To understand the bad taste that a lot of folks have with Pro’s in hunt tests, you need to understand a little bit of what it takes for those events to be successful. It’s real easy to understand the financial portion of a clubs expenses, its dollars, cents and entry fees. But there are also expenses associated with the “human resources” that a club has at its disposal. Those human resources by and large are comprised of a clubs’ members.They donate their time and efforts to bring off a successful event when it’s their clubs turn to host an event.
> 
> This sport relies upon the existence of numerous non-proffit and not for profit clubs who host the various events around the country. Those clubs in turn rely on their memberships support to exist and perform the functions needed to operate. Those club members are comprised of dog Owners who have a deep love and respect for the dogs, the sport, and the community surrounding the sport. Their efforts make the whole thing work.
> 
> ...


In the words of that dude on Forest Gump... You said it all man!!


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> To understand the bad taste that a lot of folks have with Pro’s in hunt tests, you need to understand a little bit of what it takes for those events to be successful. It’s real easy to understand the financial portion of a clubs expenses, its dollars, cents and entry fees. But there are also expenses associated with the “human resources” that a club has at its disposal. Those human resources by and large are comprised of a clubs’ members.They donate their time and efforts to bring off a successful event when it’s their clubs turn to host an event.
> 
> This sport relies upon the existence of numerous non-proffit and not for profit clubs who host the various events around the country. Those clubs in turn rely on their memberships support to exist and perform the functions needed to operate. Those club members are comprised of dog Owners who have a deep love and respect for the dogs, the sport, and the community surrounding the sport. Their efforts make the whole thing work.
> 
> ...


Please try to look at this from both sides of the coin. I'd love to have weekends off to train with a group but I am in sales for a living and as you know if you are in sales you must work when the rest of the world is off spending money. The way it is for me is I am going to have to take days off work, and I make a very good living and it is 100% commission with no salary, to see my dog run by a Pro who has done wonders for her and has her farther along than I would be able to have her. I've tried with other dogs. If I want an exceptional dog to hunt with when I am off then I must send it to a Pro. I work with the pup as much as possible but I owe it to my family at home to bring in the bacon. If I joined a club I couldn't make any of the training days so why join. I could join and never show up but then someone would get mad at me for that or is just about the dues? I have been to a couple in the past (maybe 2 in 3 years) , helped, never bringing one of my own dogs, but observing what people are working on. So I ask you, does this make me a bad member of your community? If so ,I'm sorry but I will keep doing it this way until I retire and have the time to do it your way. Please forgive me. Thanks, Gary


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Gary Southall said:


> Please try to look at this from both sides of the coin. I'd love to have weekends off to train with a group but I am in sales for a living and as you know if you are in sales you must work when the rest of the world is off spending money. The way it is for me is I am going to have to take days off work, and I make a very good living and it is 100% commission with no salary, to see my dog run by a Pro who has done wonders for her and has her farther along than I would be able to have her. I've tried with other dogs. If I want an exceptional dog to hunt with when I am off then I must send it to a Pro. I work with the pup as much as possible but I owe it to my family at home to bring in the bacon. If I joined a club I couldn't make any of the training days so why join. I could join and never show up but then someone would get mad at me for that or is just about the dues? I have been to a couple in the past (maybe 2 in 3 years) , helped, never bringing one of my own dogs, but observing what people are working on. So I ask you, does this make me a bad member of your community? If so ,I'm sorry but I will keep doing it this way until I retire and have the time to do it your way. Please forgive me. Thanks, Gary


There's always golf.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Jerry S. said:


> There's always golf.


Golf club can't retrieve his ducks... He said he wants a well trained dog to hunt with... It's his money and his dog.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

FinnLandR said:


> Not sure I follow:
> 
> Do you run your dog at tests, or does your pro?
> If you are there and running, would it hurt you to help tear down and set up between the morning and afternoon?
> ...




So your saying "some people have a problem" with a guy they never even met because his dog is at an event and he or she is not there setting up or tearing down. REALLY?????

Sounds like some people just plain have problems.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Sounds to me like some just want to fight amongst our own. Just like hunters arguing over what type of weapon to use, traditional bow or crossbow... Muzzleloader or long range rifle. 

Do it the way you want. Let others do it the way they want. 

You don't know what another persons motivations are.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> I agree.
> 
> Even though HT is "non-competitive", the fact remains that the quality of the dogs being brought to the line DOES change the game.
> It isn't intentional. It's just unavoidable.
> ...


Can I agree with that?.Yup! ,even this side of the pond!..with regard to our 'Working tests'!..
anyhow.All competition is competitive,even if it is against a standard.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

polmaise said:


> Can I agree with that?


 Just this once. Don't make a habit of it.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

[QUOTE=Hunt'EmUp;1097628]I think it's this in a nut-shell, Pros get paid to do all that dog training and running, the Amateurs work a full week then volunteers their time and effort to go out and throw for a guy who's getting paid to be there. Then they have to adapt, a every stake, change running order and end-up waiting for Pros to show-up and run. Sometimes even take flack from a Pro for not throwing the birds right, or missing a flyer. While the Pro seems to be leisurely moving from stake to stake, leisurely airing dogs, perhaps going out to lunch rather than showing up to his next stake, yes it has happened. Everyone else is set up in the field, lucky to grab a sandwich. Amateurs throwing birds, gets bullied into quick run your dog, so you can go out and throw birds, when the pro shows up. For the Amateur its a volunteer slave-labor hobby for the pro it's a job-pay check. Two different mentalities that are designed to breed hostility. I know 2-3 Pros that are givers, they do all they can to help out, they go quickly to stakes, and shoot-help out when not running dogs. Still I know others that are entirely takers, slow movers, the first one's off the property if there dogs go out, the ones trying to move running order so they can leave (to run SH-JH when SH-JH has been over for hrs), the ones who show-up at certain stakes to stack the deck on when they run, despite marshal instructions. A single bad apple leaves a bad taste much longer than a good one.[/QUOTE]

I ran a trial in Alabama this spring in a sideways rain. Its was 38 degrees. Paul Sletten (pro) was the stake coordinator and helped get the test set up and going. Riding HIS quad around getting everything just right for the judges. He was in rain gear but I bet he was wet before they ran the first dog. He also marshalled all day while running dogs. Myself and Charlie Moody (pro) went out to shoot flyers because it was raining sideways and 38 degrees and none of the others running the test wanted to get out of their trucks. Some needed to be running dogs because they had a large number of them to run (pros) some just didnt want to get out of there trucks because it was 38 degrees and raining sideways even though they only had 1 or 2 dogs to run (am's) I dont blame ANYONE for not wanting to be out in that crap. I didnt want to be. I dont have a bad attituide toward am's because of times like this, why would I?

I really dont get comments like the one above.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Just this once. Don't make a habit of it.


I will endeavour to persevere.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

FinnLandR said:


> Not sure I follow:
> 
> Do you run your dog at tests, or does your pro?
> If you are there and running, would it hurt you to help tear down and set up between the morning and afternoon?
> ...


It pains me to see how the concept of volunteerism can be so distorted. To volunteer is to give your time and even money unselfishly without the expectation of reward. Never in my 20 years of coaching Little League did we turn a child away because the parents would not or could not pay for the cap and socks of the child, nor whether they showed up for the games, let alone work in the concession stand.

Gary, you seem to have your heart in the right place but are unable to find a way to contribute. Think about joining a club regardless of whether you can help at training days or at the local hunt test. See if your wife might like to carry some refreshments and snacks to a training day. Take the kids to a hunt test and help out. They could just show up. Even a 6 year old can fill a pan with water for a pro who has to get another dog out to run. Just find a way to volunteer. Do the best you can and I am sure it will be appreciated. Never while helping at a local test has anyone refused to help me if I so needed. Don't worry about how little or how much you can do but only that you and your family do it unselfishly and without reward. I promise you that your children will be rewarded by what they learn.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

FinnLandR said:


> I was referring to him being at his OWN club's tests, Tim. Sorry it wasn't clear enough.
> 
> BTW, I was the guy at GLHRC's fun hunt last month who hadn't met any of the members there yet ended up running a winger for around an hour.


 Corey thank you for helping thats awesome. I give a good deal of time to the GLHRC club serving as the club VP and hosting a couple of fun hunts each year. I was in Indiana running a HT that weekend sorry I miss meeting you. I hope you were able to meet my son Josh who is also a board member for our club. Maybe you met some of the other new members, many of them have bought a pup from us or I have trained a dog for them and by my encouragemet have gotten envolved. I am also a member of the Flat River RC and will be the site coordinator for the minor stakes. My wife will be there as well Marshalling. I dont tell you this because I need attention for what I do. I am not trying to single you out at all. I promise you there are other pros that make me look bad when it comes to giving back. I just get so sick of all the complaining about pros.
I hope to meet you soon. Are you running at GLHRC hunt test in May? I will be running dogs and working both days if you are there look me up.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Jerry, My golf game is suffering now because I'm trying to use my extra money to help my pup. She is a sweet, smart, loving little dog that is a BIG part of our family. She is out of Grady and Lotto, a MH that is QAA and won a SRS in 2010 and I'm very proud of what my Pro has been able to teach her. I also have a son that is a straight A student and is on the golf team and I have to, no want to, spend time with him also to make sure he becomes a good man and a productive part of society. I'm scheduled for 54 hours a week but rarely is that what I work. I work a 6 day work week every other week. I have to be there when my customers need me . That is being a good salesman with great customer service. I switched with a co-worker to go see my little pup get her JH title tomorrow. I will run her myself if I think that it will be the best thing for her to get her pass. There are so many hours in a week or day. All I ask is think about what another person has to do to get what they want in life. I hope you don't think I'm complaining because I'm doing great and having fun! Sincerely, Gary


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

In fairness I do know a Pro who works as hard as anyone, judges, does everything you can imagine to help out. When this pro runs a hunt test, there are hired hands working in the field, so the most a handler has to do is work near the line, if at all.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Byron Musick said:


> Just no sliding sarcasm past you is there!! Oh yea, good luck at the hunt test this weekend!


Byron, Well after putting in 12 hours of work on Saturday and getting up at 5am to get to Neil's place on Sunday morning (running 7th in first test) little Miss Belle smashed it! She got her JH title! I ran her in both tests. She only needed 1 pass to get her title but I signed her up for both just in case there was a handler error  but Neil has that puppy on point! Got home and hit the wall! Thank god I don't have to be to work till 1pm today. Hope your weekend was as satisfying and please tell Ms. Kathy hey for me.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gary Southall said:


> Byron, Well after putting in 12 hours of work on Saturday and getting up at 5am to get to Neil's place on Sunday morning (running 7th in first test) little Miss Belle smashed it! She got her JH title! I ran her in both tests. She only needed 1 pass to get her title but I signed her up for both just in case there was a handler error  but Neil has that puppy on point! Got home and hit the wall! Thank god I don't have to be to work till 1pm today. Hope your weekend was as satisfying and please tell Ms. Kathy hey for me.



Way to go!! Congrats!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> [QUOTE=Hunt'EmUp;1097628]I think it's this in a nut-shell, Pros get paid to do all that dog training and running, the Amateurs work a full week then volunteers their time and effort to go out and throw for a guy who's getting paid to be there. Then they have to adapt, a every stake, change running order and end-up waiting for Pros to show-up and run. Sometimes even take flack from a Pro for not throwing the birds right, or missing a flyer. While the Pro seems to be leisurely moving from stake to stake, leisurely airing dogs, perhaps going out to lunch rather than showing up to his next stake, yes it has happened. Everyone else is set up in the field, lucky to grab a sandwich. Amateurs throwing birds, gets bullied into quick run your dog, so you can go out and throw birds, when the pro shows up. For the Amateur its a volunteer slave-labor hobby for the pro it's a job-pay check. Two different mentalities that are designed to breed hostility. I know 2-3 Pros that are givers, they do all they can to help out, they go quickly to stakes, and shoot-help out when not running dogs. Still I know others that are entirely takers, slow movers, the first one's off the property if there dogs go out, the ones trying to move running order so they can leave (to run SH-JH when SH-JH has been over for hrs), the ones who show-up at certain stakes to stack the deck on when they run, despite marshal instructions. A single bad apple leaves a bad taste much longer than a good one.
> 
> I ran a trial in Alabama this spring in a sideways rain. Its was 38 degrees. Paul Sletten (pro) was the stake coordinator and helped get the test set up and going. Riding HIS quad around getting everything just right for the judges. He was in rain gear but I bet he was wet before they ran the first dog. He also marshalled all day while running dogs. Myself and Charlie Moody (pro) went out to shoot flyers because it was raining sideways and 38 degrees and none of the others running the test wanted to get out of their trucks. Some needed to be running dogs because they had a large number of them to run (pros) some just didnt want to get out of there trucks because it was 38 degrees and raining sideways even though they only had 1 or 2 dogs to run (am's) I dont blame ANYONE for not wanting to be out in that crap. I didnt want to be. I dont have a bad attituide toward am's because of times like this, why would I?
> 
> I really dont get comments like the one above.


I have had this pro above throw marks for me all day long, come in from the field, quickly air his dogs, run them in the trial and head back out to throw more marks. This was in a Fall trial.

Thanks Tim! We would have had trouble getting through this trial if you'd not chipped in. 

Chris


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Gary Southall said:


> little Miss Belle smashed it! She got her JH title! I ran her in both tests. .


Congrats on the title!!


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

huntinman said:


> Way to go!! Congrats!


Bill, Thanks for your support


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Is there any reason more HT pros do not join PRTA?


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