# Does any one throw marks with orange bumpers..................................



## Quackwacker (Aug 16, 2011)

A guy from Louisiana is tell me all the field trial pros in his area use orange to throw marks.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Not much of a mark if the dog can't see it....


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## joeyrhoades (Feb 23, 2015)

watching some of Hillmann's videos, he says that he usually uses all orange bumpers. He uses white because they show up better in the videos.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

Cass said:


> Not much of a mark if the dog can't see it....


This!!!!!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Orange shows up just fine if you have a lite background, such as white clouds. Just pay attention to your background and throw something that contrasts well.

Edit: but any serious pro is throwing birds not bumpers.


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

Quackwacker said:


> A guy from Louisiana is tell me all the field trial pros in his area use orange to throw marks.


Only about 75-100 per week!  

I try to run a Y drill or advanced Y drill several times a week, and almost always use orange bumpers. Also use orange for walking singles at reasonable (<75 yards) distances. Dogs can absolutely see orange under about 100 yards, BUT when they reach the area of the fall, (assuming some cover) they have to use their nose to locate the bumper, rather than seeing an obvious white bumper laying there.


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## sdnordahl (Sep 1, 2012)

No! They can't see it, so it's not a "MARK".


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Hillman does...
http://balancedretriever.com/training-library/y-drill-marking/


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Orange shows up just fine if you have a lite background, such as white clouds. Just pay attention to your background and throw something that contrasts well.
> 
> Edit: but any serious pro is throwing birds not bumpers.


Many pros will throw bumpers for water marks. Generally they are Avery all white or black/white.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Mountain Duck said:


> Only about 75-100 per week!
> 
> I try to run a Y drill or advanced Y drill several times a week, and almost always use orange bumpers. Also use orange for walking singles at reasonable (<75 yards) distances. Dogs can absolutely see orange under about 100 yards, BUT when they reach the area of the fall, (assuming some cover) they have to use their nose to locate the bumper, rather than seeing an obvious white bumper laying there.


Good answer


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Hillmann does for puppy marks and drills. Not at FT distances.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

What is the definition of a "puppy" mark?


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

KwickLabs said:


> What is the definition of a "puppy" mark?


It depends upon your training partner.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Some of the things dogs can learn while training on marking scenarios do not necessarily require they always SEE a mark or a bird or a bumper (white or Orange). Or even hear a shot.
Lessons on things like, "Where there's a Gun There's a Bird" and Lining skills on marks, can be enhanced by removing elements of a Standard Mark making things more difficult for the dog.
Throw but No Shot
No Shot and No Throw.
No Shot, No Throw, Retire.
.
For a well trained advanced dog you could end up on a rare occasion running a triple or quad where the only throw or shot seen/heard is from flyer station.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> Hillmann does for puppy marks and drills. Not at FT distances.


I do with ones of all colours and shapes and sizes many are not orange and many are not bumpers ! If the pup can see it , It's a mark


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Mountain Duck said:


> Only about 75-100 per week!
> 
> I try to run a Y drill or advanced Y drill several times a week, and almost always use orange bumpers. Also use orange for walking singles at reasonable (<75 yards) distances. Dogs can absolutely see orange under about 100 yards, BUT when they reach the area of the fall, (assuming some cover) they have to use their nose to locate the bumper, rather than seeing an obvious white bumper laying there.


This and because Bill Hillmann says to do it. I've actually seen my dogs marking improve using orange bumpers out to about 100 yards. When she gets to the area of the fall, her nose, not her eyes, closes the deal.


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## Marilyn Fender (Sep 3, 2005)

My 1996 NFC FC AFC Storm's Riptide Star could not see orange on grass at 15 feet --- even just playing on my lawn with him. 
If you look at the scientific background and responsible research on dog's sight ---- you will see that it is rare that dogs can sort out where orange is. Yes --- under certain unusual conditions they can see orange ---but it is rare a handler has the time to figure out just what those odd rare conditions might be. A specific dog can sometimes see orange a little better than not seeing at all ---but not like they can see black/feathers or white. Easier just to use something that it is known that dogs can easily see as you are teaching them to mark what is thrown. 

I have three top field trial Pros train on my 55 acres with ponds every week (Tues/Wed/Thurs) in summer season and not one of them uses orange on marks.
Between them they have multiple National Retriever Champion Open wins, amateurs on their trucks with multiple National Amateur wins, multiple Finalists in National Opens and Amateurs, many QAA dogs, many ten point or more pointed Derby dogs ----and none of them use orange on marks at any time at any distance in training. . 

BTW --- adding white streamers to a bird is not unusual in training if there are conditions that make birds difficult to see at a distance . Just saw white streamers on birds used here last week . 

Black/white Avery bumpers are common , particularly on water ---with stripes going the long way as that makes the entire bumper more visible. The other brands split half/half black/white are not as useful. 


Orange is used on blinds because handlers/trainers don't want dogs going to something they can see from any distance from the blind pile. They want a blind to be "blind" for getting there ---- not running to a visible pile. 

Yes birds are used some of the time on blinds in training --- but typically, in training, orange bumpers are used for blinds. 


Pros trucks and their amateur handlers have been training on my property for about 20 years ----and it has always been as I just described... My house is on the property ---- and so I can easily see what is happening all the time.
And some of the time I was training a dog with them......

Just some thoughts to consider  

Marilyn Fender --- Windstorm Retrievers --- Wisconsin and Georgia 
Home of 96 NFC FC AFC Storm's Riptide Star and his son born here --- 2000 CNAFC CFC CAFC Quik Windstorm


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I imagine that the first day that we need to teach dogs to use their nose, will come many years after we first need to teach fish to swim.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Marilyn Fender said:


> My 1996 NFC FC AFC Storm's Riptide Star could not see orange on grass at 15 feet --- even just playing on my lawn with him.
> If you look at the scientific background and responsible research on dog's sight ---- you will see that it is rare that dogs can sort out where orange is. Yes --- under certain unusual conditions they can see orange ---but it is rare a handler has the time to figure out just what those odd rare conditions might be. A specific dog can sometimes see orange a little better than not seeing at all ---but not like they can see black/feathers or white. Easier just to use something that it is known that dogs can easily see as you are teaching them to mark what is thrown.
> 
> I have three top field trial Pros train on my 55 acres with ponds every week (Tues/Wed/Thurs) in summer season and not one of them uses orange on marks.
> ...



Your experience is invaluable in the FT circuit and to those that what to learn and understand.
Thanks for sharing your experience.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

copterdoc said:


> I imagine that the first day that we need to teach dogs to use their nose, will come many years after we first need to teach fish to swim.


Amusingly true


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Look at it this way if dogs seen orange better than white or black we would all be wearing orange handlers jackets.. Whens the last time you seen a orange handlers jacket????


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

KwickLabs said:


> What is the definition of a "puppy" mark?


A mark thrown for a puppy.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

[What is the definition of a "puppy" mark?

QUOTE=Brad B;1323902]A mark thrown for a puppy.[/QUOTE]

That one had me stumped to, thanks for clearing that up.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Dogs see the movement of a mark. It doesn't matter what colour it is, other than some colours/contrasts show up better on different backgrounds and are easier to mark. Yes, dogs are red/green colour blind (less cones than us) but have better ability to detect movement.

Like Polmaise, I use all manner of colours and shapes and sizes for marks. If I want to really test a dog and it is advanced I will use smaller and less high viz dummies/dokkens, and with young 'learner markers' I will use white large or black and white contrast dummies so there is no 'excuse' for them not seeing it. Sadly, in the UK birds don't come with streamers tied onto their legs, or painted black/white!


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> Look at it this way if dogs seen orange better than white or black we would all be wearing orange handlers jackets.. Whens the last time you seen a orange handlers jacket????


I don't believe anyone here disputed that dogs see white or black better than orange, only that perhaps using orange with short marks in "some" dogs can be a valuable and different tool in your handler bag of tricks.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This thread presents a perplexing issue. Many with a great deal of experience express less than flexible perceptions. "Never to sometimes" covers a lot of ground. Technically a retriever is a pup until two years old. A 3 month old pup is probably doing much less challenging retrieves than a 22 month old derby competitor. 

From my perspective, I tend to make things less complicated by sticking to one approach rather than trying to be "all over the map" with many. For many years I've been a fan of Hillmann's ideas. There's no debating his expertise and results. 

Many years ago I began using his Y-drill. The premise of the drill is to enhance marking and keep it sharp. The drill uses orange bumpers and the distances generally do not exceed 125 yards. One description that always struck me as significant was that if dog does not mark the AOF well.....the "penalty" is a hunt. Orange bumpers are not as user friendly for a retriever. They require more focus and not doing so is penalized. Orange bumpers in essence are a catalyst for causing a retriever to pay more attention plus they are more challenging than real ducks. 

I often recall a day many years ago when training with a friend of mine. We were going to "work" a Y-Drill and it was the first time for her. Both of us were running our MH titled dogs. The "gunning" station was 125 yards out and we were throwing 2" orange bumpers with a primer pistol. 

It was a fairly warm August morning with no humidity and the dry cover was calf high. Scenting conditions were poor. 

Taffey was all over the longer angle back. Next was the flat mark on the opposite side. She was casual and relaxed at the line, but fired when released. She was not exactly on line and missed it. However, she kept on with her lining and suddenly her body language said "Oops?!". Taffey began circling and proceeded to put on a big hunt. She became frustrated and picked up the pace and she was in great shape. From early on, Taffey never give up on a mark. 

Three well spaced out times Anne asked me, "Do you want me to help her? I kept saying "No!" Anne was getting a bit irritated and more concerned as time went on. I insisted, "Let her work it out. " Finally,.....she stumbled over it. I lined her up for the next (and final) single and it was very clear that her focus was much more intense. She stepped on it. 

There is a penalty for not marking the AOF and not being focused. Dogs need to learn that big hunts aren't necessary and that help is a crutch. Orange bumpers teach a dog about that penalty. The lesson is pay attention. Doing Y-drills regularly with orange bumpers keeps a dog's marking skills at a high level. 

Can skilled marking be accomplished in different ways? Obviously it can, as this topic reveals. Hillmann uses orange bumpers in certain marking/training situations .....why would I not feel comfortable in listening to and following his experienced and proven approach?


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

kennel maiden said:


> Dogs see the movement of a mark. It doesn't matter what colour it is, other than some colours/contrasts show up better on different backgrounds and are easier to mark. Yes, dogs are red/green colour blind (less cones than us) but have better ability to detect movement.
> 
> Like Polmaise, I use all manner of colours and shapes and sizes for marks. If I want to really test a dog and it is advanced I will use smaller and less high viz dummies/dokkens, and with young 'learner markers' I will use white large or black and white contrast dummies so there is no 'excuse' for them not seeing it. Sadly, in the UK birds don't come with streamers tied onto their legs, or painted black/white!


KM I think your marking setups in training are quite a bit different then ours because your goal is different. Distance and factors are significantly different from UK to North American FT. There is a reason that many of the top pros and amateurs use high viz options for marks- training is training and trials are trials.


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

KwickLabs said:


> This thread presents a perplexing issue....
> 
> .....why would I not feel comfortable in listening to and following his experienced and proven approach?


Great post Jim!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

In the early 70's I ran a trial in lower BC with a Water blind marked by an orange painted stake -
Ray Koskinen brought his dog to the line & the dog locked on that stake, so the thought that dogs 
can't see orange if the contrast is right might be just someone's theory. 

In the 90's @ Warm Springs MT I saw a dog (DH winner) spot a white cup 70 yards off line & proceed 
to blow the handler off while going to investigate the cup. 

Like Marilyn I've had the good fortune to train with a top flight pro for years. Dogs that can't mark a 
well set up orange bumper at most distances are probably not ready for varsity status. 

My dogs never told me what they could & couldn't see so I had to guess at what worked through 
observation. 

I'll close with a question - The mark is a well used dead duck thrown weakly against an evergreen background 
out about 300 yards, 2nd bird in the sequence so there is little possibility of locking on that mark, does anyone 
actually believe that bird is more visible to a dog than an orange bumper? or spends more time in the air?


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

jrrichar said:


> KM I think your marking setups in training are quite a bit different then ours because your goal is different. Distance and factors are significantly different from UK to North American FT. There is a reason that many of the top pros and amateurs use high viz options for marks- training is training and trials are trials.


Yes, there are differences in our end games and goals. But marking is marking! In our working tests, long marks very similar to your field trials are not uncommon (although not the water work you do, and we don't usually just get bare grass as 'cover'). We both need to teach our dogs to mark, so there really isn't any difference in that. Likewise, we start off with 'puppy marks' on highly visual targets (white large dummies) at short range with clear throws, and then build through novice retrieves up to 'open' level where marks can be only partial, obscured by a lot of cover/trees etc and other factors. We rarely use large white dummies with experienced dogs as it is not necessary. They are already keyed in to marking, so we can use pretty much anything, and in so doing vary the degree of difficulty.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> In our working tests, long marks very similar to your field trials are not uncommon


How many yards/meters are your marks?


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Depends on the stage of the dog, but at Open level, they can be up to around 250 metres max. And some much shorter than that. But, as I mentioned, unlike yours, where the terrain is largely bare and the dog and dummy visible at virtually all times, there may be a lot of factors and extreme cover to cross to get there. So, it's not all about distance. Typically our marks are shorter than yours, but it doesn't mean that our dogs are less able to mark than yours!! As I am sure you will agree, it's not all about the length? ;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It depends on what section of the country the trials are held, but in the Midwest, the terrain is not bare and flat and the marks are not visible all the way. We have hills and cover. Anyone have some pictures when the National was out at Blackhawks terrain?


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## krazybronco2 (Jan 31, 2013)

EELabs said:


> It depends on what section of the country the trials are held, but in the Midwest, the terrain is not bare and flat and the marks are not visible all the way. We have hills and cover. Anyone have some pictures when the National was out at Blackhawks terrain?


something like this if you click the pic it gets bigger and you can see the change in cover

http://2013narcblog.theretrievernews.com/2013/06/5th-series-indented-land-triple-test.html


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

KM, 
"largely Bare and Dummy visible", rare at any level of competition. For training baby puppies, yes. For introducing complex concepts in training, yes.
Here birds are thrown hopefully where dogs don't want to go to straight away, and that ain't on a golf fairway. lol
.
Here, in addition to marking ability our dogs require a long memory and need to count to 3 and 4. 
When dog is sent on a marking test and until it's completed, 7 to 15 minutes will have passed on a land test and upwards of a 1/2 hour of swimming on a water test by time last bird is delivered to hand.

ps
250 meters is our mid distance at Open. Longest hits 400+
In an open test, where a quad is run, 3 of the 4 birds may all be further than 250m. 
Given that a dog may have already run 1500m picking 3 birds before he is sent and needs to remember the toughest 4th bird.
.
.
I'm going to post something for you to try for fun in a few min....


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

KM
Maybe when you have a free day take your dogs and 3 friends to this spot and have a go.
Please feel free to ask for clarification on how to setup the tests, what is expected.
These would be considered Qualifying level a few steps down from what we see in Open.

1) Land and Water Blind with Poison Bird (or alternately a hidden gun w/ dry pop)
2) A Water Triple (w/ no retired guns)
3) A Water Blind run down shoreline, under arc of Flyer, and on/off a point of land.

Images show gps location.

Please have fun with this and report back.
cheers








.
.
.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

This is what I was thinking http://2013narcblog.theretrievernews.com/2013/06/9th-series-waterland-quad-with-honor.html

Also, you have to visualize what the mark looks like to the dog after the dog crosses the hill and looks up towards it. These marks are not placed willy nilly but in a specific place where it may not be visible to the dog on the line he is on.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I sure wish the old National videos that were on the old AKC and WRC sites hadn't been purged. Several were very good.
Anyone know how to find them? Josie?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Oh damn
KM
Sorry I just noticed my drawings are at Sense Forest Park. Probably can't run dogs there I imagine.
Oh well.

.
Can you possibly run dogs at Bramborough Farm or something like that?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

KwickLabs said:


> The drill uses orange bumpers and the distances generally do not exceed 125 yards.


Would you use orange bumpers at three times the distance? Do you think Bill does?

I like Bill and am a fan of his training methods. i also have on the truck black, white, orange, two tone and a few funny color bumpers (including green) for various drills or situations. Sometimes even pull out the big boat bumpers for when we occasionally work on ridiculously long distances.

My point was and is to caution the newbs who might read this that throwing orange bumpers is not the One True Path to an excellent marking dog and can even be counterproductive. At the end of the day, dogs must see to mark. Motion alone is fine at short distances and sometimes at longer distances but if they can't see it they are not going to mark it. Bill makes this fairly clear in the videos.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> something like this if you click the pic it gets bigger and you can see the change in cover
> 
> http://2013narcblog.theretrievernews.com/2013/06/5th-series-indented-land-triple-test.html


But that's exactly what I mean, you can see the whole way to the marks and the areas of marks and blinds! It's all highly visible.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> KM,
> "largely Bare and Dummy visible", rare at any level of competition. For training baby puppies, yes. For introducing complex concepts in training, yes.
> Here birds are thrown hopefully where dogs don't want to go to straight away, and that ain't on a golf fairway. lol
> .
> ...


Oh dear, I really didn't want to get into all this again, and I'm not sure why we are? So,
YES - on the whole your marks are a lot longer than ours, and
YES - you have one heck of a lot more water than us, and 
YES - on the whole our dogs are a lot more steady than yours (having to honour other dogs working all the time and sitting through heavy drives), and 
YES - our terrain is usually a lot more varied than yours, and with denser cover, with dogs working or running quite often unsighted, and 
YES - believe it or not our dogs can count too! 

But what I don't necessarily agree with, is that you can't throw orange dummies as marks (or pink or green ones for that matter)! 
It's good to exchange opinions and learn from each other. I think that is what the OP had in mind. And there are a variety of thoughts here, all of which offer something.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> Oh damn
> KM
> Sorry I just noticed my drawings are at Sense Forest Park. Probably can't run dogs there I imagine.
> Oh well.
> ...


LOL, I used to train my dogs at Sense Valley! But it's public park/access land, and a nature sanctuary and people would have a bit of a freak out if you were caught running dogs there. And obviously you can't use shot!!! But I have played around on/over some of those stretches of water, but it's hard dodging Joe Public. That first blind set up is something I actually did! Haven't been back for many years, and I suspect it's not really doable now. It's very hard to find decent water around that doesn't have angry fisherman included, or bird watchers!

I don't know Bramborough Farm, but if it's a private farm, there is no chance of gaining access.

We're off to Scotland though this weekend, so that will give us 'terrain' of a whole different type 

PS It is illegal to throw live birds in the UK and shoot them!! And also illegal to shoot wild game birds/ducks out of season, so at the moment it is 'bumpers' only here.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I really didn't want to get into all this again, and I'm not sure why we are?


Because you assumed all our FT are done on flat land, and that throwing orange bumpers enhance marking even at a great distance. We are talking apples and oranges, two different games.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> Would you use orange bumpers at three times the distance? Do you think Bill does?
> 
> I like Bill and am a fan of his training methods. i also have on the truck black, white, orange, two tone and a few funny color bumpers (including green) for various drills or situations. Sometimes even pull out the big boat bumpers for when we occasionally work on ridiculously long distances.
> 
> My point was and is to caution the newbs who might read this that throwing orange bumpers is not the One True Path to an excellent marking dog and can even be counterproductive. At the end of the day, dogs must see to mark. Motion alone is fine at short distances and sometimes at longer distances but if they can't see it they are not going to mark it. Bill makes this fairly clear in the videos.


I don't understand what you are trying to suggest. If I stated what kind of work an orange bumper is used for in Hillmann's Y-drill and point out his specific rationale with respect to marking, why would you suggest this would cause issues with an inexperienced trainer when most other training is not clear either. 

Your statement that "Bill makes this fairly clear in the videos" does NOT validate *everything* that you expressed. 

In addition, where was anything posted that even came close to suggesting this was the One True Path?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

kennel maiden said:


> We're off to Scotland though this weekend, so that will give us 'terrain' of a whole different type


Hope it has lots of Heather


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

EELabs said:


> Because you assumed all our FT are done on flat land, and that throwing orange bumpers enhance marking even at a great distance. We are talking apples and oranges, two different games.


Err, no, don't think I ever mentioned 'flat'? I've seen the undulations. But you don't have the cover that we have involved, such as heather, sugar beet, maize, kale, rape etc, on a regular basis. Yes, apples and oranges (LOL no pun intended)!

Orange dummies (or green, or drab) are harder to mark at distance, but isn't that the point? White stick out like a sore thumb, and are good for getting youngsters to dial in. But once they are, you can make the marks more challenging?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

KwickLabs said:


> I don't understand what you are trying to suggest. If I stated what kind of work an orange bumper is used for in Hillmann's Y-drill and point out his specific rationale with respect to marking, why would you suggest this would cause issues with an inexperienced trainer when most other training is not clear either.
> 
> Your statement that "Bill makes this fairly clear in the videos" does NOT validate *everything* that you expressed.
> 
> In addition, where was anything posted that even came close to suggesting this was the One True Path?


Sorry if I singled you out by quoting part of your post. Several folks said that Bill Hillmann says to use orange bumpers and that is frankly irresponsibly incomplete. He does advocate them for puppy marks and certain drills but even he does not use them at FT distances as I originally pointed out. I was surprised that this was derided as I thought it was fairly obvious.

Since it seems I already have the Hillmann faithful getting the torches and pitchforks out, I will add though that the notion that using orange bumpers "teaches" the dog to use its nose, as folks also seem to believe, is ludicrous. They already know very well how to use their nose to hunt things up--they did this before their eyes opened. It does make the bumper less obvious (as would other colors but orange is already on most folks truck) and tends to lead to a longer hunt in the AOF during which time it can use its nose but it is the hunt and sticking to a hunt, which you did a nice job of describing in your post, that is the key. Not saying it doesn't have value--I think it is one of the interesting departures Bill uses with young dogs--but I can't figure out how folks believe the dogs need teaching to use their nose.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

If things were that easy and simple over here, making up a field champion would be a walk in the park..
I had what many would consider a pretty good dog. During her career she was still playing at the end, meaning in contention to win, ~45% of the time over the ~130 Open/Am trials she ran.
The illusive win required to title her came at the tail end of a battle weary career.
field trials here are harder than hell, they really are.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"I can't figure out how folks believe the dogs need teaching to use their nose."_

Because a lot of inexperienced dog trainers don't know any better. They bought primarily a hunting "buddy" and throwing bumpers into cover is usually self-gratifying. It validates a misconception.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wow, now we are fighting over orange bumpers. Personally I'm all for working a dog to develop and use his nose, that's why we throw into short or heavier cover. As to orange, I throw orange, white or whatever fun bumpers all the time, but if I want to develop my dog's marking skill, why wouldn't I pick the most visible color I can? It really doesn't matter much at short distances, but why take the chance the dog doesn't see the bumper in the air and as it falls? If I have a very light background I might use a black bumper, otherwise it's white. The truth is I usually use birds. 

As for seeing orange, dogs are different. I have seen some dogs pick up on an orange marker from 200 yards, while I have a dog that can't see an orange bumper lying on mowed grass five feet in front of him.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

The tough part is to teach dog when to ignore their nose and discriminate between scent of bird shot 5 minutes ago and the one shot for them, fly through drag back scent etc....


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> Wow, now we are fighting over orange bumpers. Personally I'm all for working a dog to develop and use his nose, that's why we throw into short or heavier cover. As to orange, I throw orange, white or whatever fun bumpers all the time, but if I want to develop my dog's marking skill, why wouldn't I pick the most visible color I can? It really doesn't matter much at short distances, but why take the chance the dog doesn't see the bumper in the air and as it falls? If I have a very light background I might use a black bumper, otherwise it's white. The truth is I usually use birds.
> 
> As for seeing orange, dogs are different. I have seen some dogs pick up on an orange marker from 200 yards, while I have a dog that can't see an orange bumper lying on mowed grass five feet in front of him.


Ain't that the truth !
Some fight over others beliefs or sometimes who said it. 
If John Do said Orange Bumpers were best he would be ridiculed .


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

All the pros I've encountered have used birds, and occasionally use bumpers on water marks when it's hot to save the birds. The dogs, at least mine, can tell the difference between bumpers and birds, no matter what color, and the bumpers don't impress them as much as birds do. Breck is right, winning a field trial isn't easy, especially when you are competing with 100 or so other dogs, many of which are already field champions.


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Err, no, don't think I ever mentioned 'flat'? I've seen the undulations. But you don't have the cover that we have involved, such as heather, sugar beet, maize, kale, rape etc, on a regular basis. Yes, apples and oranges (LOL no pun intended)!


I'm trying to get over the fact that we don't have heavy cover or crops. I ran a qualifying (not an open or an am) last year about this time in MT where the go bird was at least 250 yards, down a steep hill, over a ditch through a 10m wide strip of standing corn stalks (it was spring, the corn had been left standing) out across a 10 m open strip, back into another 10m wide strip of corn, and out into the open and up against some trees. Nope, no terrain, no cover. Even the hunt tests in Utah at that wildlife area near salt lake go through thick, thigh high grass.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> If things were that easy and simple over here, making up a field champion would be a walk in the park..
> I had what many would consider a pretty good dog. During her career she was still playing at the end, meaning in contention to win, ~45% of the time over the ~130 Open/Am trials she ran.
> The illusive win required to title her came at the tail end of a battle weary career.
> field trials here are harder than hell, they really are.


Exactly the same here, I have an outstanding bitch at the moment, who has been extremely consistent for me, but last season got 2 x 2nd, 1 x 3rd, and 1 x 4th in 2-day open stakes. Means nothing towards her title, "just" need that one more win to make her up to Champion.... Frustrating.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Marilyn Fender said:


> My 1996 NFC FC AFC Storm's Riptide Star could not see orange on grass at 15 feet --- even just playing on my lawn with him.
> If you look at the scientific background and responsible research on dog's sight ---- you will see that it is rare that dogs can sort out where orange is. Yes --- under certain unusual conditions they can see orange ---but it is rare a handler has the time to figure out just what those odd rare conditions might be. A specific dog can sometimes see orange a little better than not seeing at all ---but not like they can see black/feathers or white. Easier just to use something that it is known that dogs can easily see as you are teaching them to mark what is thrown.
> 
> I have three top field trial Pros train on my 55 acres with ponds every week (Tues/Wed/Thurs) in summer season and not one of them uses orange on marks.
> ...


What Marilyn said, One of those pro's has won seven nationals.
How many nationals has Hillman won? I love and use Hillman's puppy training methods but it ends there.
Don't use orange for marks period.


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## Quackwacker (Aug 16, 2011)

Breck said:


> The tough part is to teach dog when to ignore their nose and discriminate between scent of bird shot 5 minutes ago and the one shot for them, fly through drag back scent etc....


This!!!!!!!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

golfandhunter said:


> What Marilyn said, One of those pro's has won seven nationals.
> How many nationals has Hillman won? I love and use Hillman's puppy training methods but it ends there.
> Don't use orange for marks period.


This is for the newby's here! 

Not a defender of Hillman but he's done pretty well for a guy who has issues with where he wants to be -
& a lot of people, including myself, would only wish for dogs that work with them on the line as his do. 

& from your record - you buy dogs with nice pedigrees - apparently don't do much with them - why would 
anyone consider anything you post?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Quackwacker said:


> This!!!!!!!


That will be a Mark  and one that the dog can see. lol


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## dbonham (Jul 27, 2014)

I've put some thought into this over the past few months and figured out what's worked for me and my dogs. My decision is it's cover based. I throw orange bumpers in low cover with not much terrain when a white bumper would stand out from 100 yards at the line. I don't believe, for my dogs at least, that it helps them too much to be able to see their mark from the line or at least when doing true marking drills and trying to work on or improve marking. I would like them to see it when they're 10 yards from it or less. That what they go to a spot or very small area. I was having marking issues (that I created) and this has worked for me. I use white bumpers when there is a little more cover and the it can't be seen until they're a few yards away. I will still use white bumpers in low cover for confidence building whether that be for me or the dog but not too often. I think it's good for hard running dogs like mine to know they can't run 1000 mph out and have to use their head and actually mark. I do use birds as well but don't have an endless supply like some. I only what I saved from hunting season to train with.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Marvin S said:


> This is for the newby's here!
> 
> Not a defender of Hillman but he's done pretty well for a guy who has issues with where he wants to be -
> & a lot of people, including myself, would only wish for dogs that work with them on the line as his do.
> ...


Well Marvin, All of my dogs have excellent line manners and as of yet we have not had any breaks at a trial.
As I stated, I use Hillman on all my pups, but don't use orange bumpers for marks after puppy training.

And to your comment that I apparently don't do much with my well bred dogs, look them up on EE.

I don't care if you ever consider anything I post. I am on here for fun and don't offer training or problem solving advice.
I'll leave that to my friend, mentor and training partner, CaptainJack.

Gotta go now, off to pick up another well bred puppy!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Gregg, 1:24 am. I guess the early bird gets the worm. LOL!


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Gregg, 1:24 am. I guess the early bird gets the worm. LOL!


Wayne, the early bird really did have to leave to pick up the new pup "Angus"

Now we are up to go potty and all he wants to do is play with his toys!!!

Not much sleep around here tonight.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

golfandhunter said:


> Wayne, the early bird really did have to leave to pick up the new pup "Angus"
> 
> Now we are up to go potty and all he wants to do is play with his toys!!!
> 
> Not much sleep around here tonight.


You need to add Angus to your sig


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> You need to add Angus to your sig


I know Penn, I think I am out of characters on my signature, been out training all day, ran Angus on a triple.
Will start force fetch next week, he is 7 weeks today!!!
I'll figure it out and get him on my sig. He is smart as a whip and has no fear, thanks to Mike Ough, for raising a fantastic litter.


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