# Question for the pros on building confidence in the dog



## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Wondering how to build confidence in the dog as far as hand signals and blind retrieves goes. Blake is 10 months old and we have almost perfected the mini T, 9 times out of 10 he does it flawlessly. He does really well with blinds as long as everything is in close. In other words, I have a hard time making him confident in my command to send him further. He will run "backs" and "overs" perfect but if he has to go further than about 20 yards he gets real confused and kind of starts to hunt for it instead of holding his line. Is this something that will build as time goes on or is there something I need to do to drive it home??? Thanks in advance.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

What have you done to get him ready for mini T ?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

have you done big T or TT?


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

letting them grow up/older would help confidence....what's the rush? read the dog...


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

How is his marking and what kind of distances and factors have been involved


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

CodyC said:


> Wondering how to build confidence in the dog as far as hand signals and blind retrieves goes. Blake is 10 months old and we have almost perfected the mini T, 9 times out of 10 he does it flawlessly. He does really well with blinds as long as everything is in close. In other words, I have a hard time making him confident in my command to send him further. He will run "backs" and "overs" perfect but if he has to go further than about 20 yards he gets real confused and kind of starts to hunt for it instead of holding his line. Is this something that will build as time goes on or is there something I need to do to drive it home??? Thanks in advance.


Cody, do you know what a "bird boy" is and how it relates to getting a dog to go out farther?
Not sure how much you have exposed your pup to the world.
Your pup is young but 20 yards is close . 
Don


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

Danny has a great article on his website: www.dannyfarmer.com

Make sure to always run 3-5 blinds each session…they get better with each one and their confidence will go up. But if you haven't done the Double T yet…time to move on to that first.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

He needs a lot more time in the yard before you start attempting cold blinds or even pattern or bird boy blinds. You are setting your dog up for failure by asking him to do something that he has not been trained yet to do. Go back and teach T and TT with a systematic approach while taking your time. Once he is very confident on these concepts then you can worry about developing a cold blind standard.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

What training besides mini T have you done?


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I have mine running 200 + yard marks with confidence before even starting any pile or handling work. I don't want distance to be a limiting factor when we get to the handling drills. 
A dog that is confident in these type marks won't think twice about 100 yard blinds or pile work. 
At 10 months, you are right on schedule. What is the rush?
MP


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Mike Perry said:


> I have mine running 200 + yard marks with confidence before even starting any pile or handling work. I don't want distance to be a limiting factor when we get to the handling drills.
> A dog that is confident in these type marks won't think twice about 100 yard blinds or pile work.
> At 10 months, you are right on schedule. What is the rush?
> MP


Hence my question to the op..but he seems to have went AWOL...


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the responses, I have been out for a while. The dog will run 100 yard marks but I definitely haven't done enough bird boy with him, some but not a whole lot. I am not expecting him to be nailing this, I was more or less seeing if he is on track or if I need to make adjustments. Have not done any double T. When I say 20 yards I mean he will cast hard with confidence for 20 yards but then he slows down and starts to hunt but still going in the right direction. No rush, hes coming along nicely, just poking around to see what kind of advice was out there


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

If you have not done any big T, you are not even remotely ready to be sending him on cold blinds....


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Cody you need to tell us what you have done to get ready for mini T or the advice is worthless. folks are telling what to do next before they know what you have done so far. That's just a really bad idea.


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

All I did before mini T was force to pile.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Sometimes terms are confusing. Is what you are calling mini t really simple casting (formerly called baseball)? I assume you have done FF and collar conditioned the dog?
Are you following a training program?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Jiggy said:


> Danny has a great article on his website: www.dannyfarmer.com
> 
> Make sure to always run 3-5 blinds each session…they get better with each one and their confidence will go up. But if you haven't done the Double T yet…time to move on to that first.


This IS a great article! Op should take the time to read it.

Its at the link Jiggy provided, under "training Tips",,, the Title of article is "Starting Cold Blinds"


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Sometimes terms are confusing. Is what you are calling mini t really simple casting (formerly called baseball)? I assume you have done FF and collar conditioned the dog?
> Are you following a training program?


It would be a big help if you answered these questions


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

When you say force to pile, i'm assuming forcing off the ground at the end of FF. Go to the T field and run it....

/Paul


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

TIM DOANE said:


> It would be a big help if you answered these questions


I apologize for not responding immediately as I have other things going on so I can't just watch the computer non stop. Thanks a lot for the responses. 

Yes, I force fetched the dog at 8 months and collar conditioned him. And maybe I wasn't clear but this is really simple casting (baseball drill). I am sort of following a training program. I am watching Evan Grahams DVD's as well as Wildrose and gun dogs basics.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ok now we know where you are.
First i would pick one of the programs you have and follow it. And not try to mix and match.

Your dog is not ready for cold blinds.
I follow a different program than you have. Hopefully you did FTP at some distance say 35-45 yd. The next step in my program is to move to the T field. First teach the line to the back pile. Smartworks
should explain how to do this. This is where you begin to stretch the dog out in lining.
You might want to read the post on "Popping" and Mike Perry's response.

Some dogs hate these drills as my Rowdy did. When we left the T field and moved to pattern blinds his confidence and drive began to show.

Hope this helps.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Now we are getting somewhere. You don't need to watch the computer all day just be careful taking advice from someone that has no idea what you have done with your dog yet has the solution for your problem.

First of all I have NEVER seen anyone that's new to dog training (not trained A LOT of dogs) get good results by "sort of following a program" and most certainly not by mixing a bit of this guys methods with a bit of that guys methods. They may think they have but probably lack the experience to know any better. To follow a proven sequential process will provide your best opportunity to get the most from any dog. Experience is a HUGE luxury that you are lacking so to me it just makes sense to use as much of someone else's as you can. Once you commit to someone else's experience stay the course do not mix it with anything else and do each step completely.

Myself I would never try to run blinds with a dog that has just finished mini t. the program I follow involves several more steps before cold blinds. The steps I use that you have skipped will go a long way to help your dog not only gain confidence but also understand exactly what is expected when running a blind. Here is where things can get tricky because if you go to the outline of the program I use and start with double T (which follows mini t) and you have not done all the previous steps involved in the program I use you may run into more problems. What I am saying here is that I don't know if your dog was ready for mini t so I really don't know if your dog was ready for double t. If you jump right into the program I use you will now have mixed 4 training programs.

If you want to train the dog yourself I would STRONGLEY SUGGEST you start from the beginning with ONE program and follow it through. If you have done some of the steps already do them over just to make sure the dog understands completely. If the dog does it wont take long at all. If you have someone that is an experienced dog trainer that can help and they feel the same way about sticking to one system use the program they use and when you have trouble they should be able to help you out. It's great that you want to do this yourself and great that you asked for help I commend you for that. Training a dog is not rocket science but it can get tricky when you lack experience.

For what it's worth I recommend Fowl Dawgs to all of my clients and pup buyers. If I am training a dog for someone I like them to own and be familiar with the program I use so they know how their dog was trained. If I sell a pup to someone and they train the dog themselves I recommend they also own and use fowl dawgs. In both cases if a problem comes up later they can call me and we can try to work it out together. Sometimes it can be done on the phone and sometimes they bring the dog over and we will get the dog going again. This only works because everyone is on the same page. Most of the time when I get a call to help someone they just did not get a previous step done completely or they for whatever reason thought they could skip something all together. That always puzzles me.

I have owned everyone's training material at one time. The stuff I have kept and use is the fowl dawgs and Lardy's TRT they are the same outline and sequence. I recommend fowl dawgs to all of my clients because it a great and complete program for $80.00 I really like the Lardy TRT as well but the entire program comes at a bit higher price.

I have used the word program so many times that I am sick of typing it. There may be some that will tell you don't need a "program" and will give you all kinds of reasons why not. Others will tell you how they mix 3 or 4 different programs and they have the best dog ever. I am not the most experienced guy on this forum, I have only trained a couple hundred dogs. (not sarcasm, that's not very many) The guys that have trained thousands are the ones I listen to and they gave me the same advice I gave you. Some will tell you Stawski and Lardy and Farmer don't train every dog exactly the same and I am sure that is true. I am sure if they were building one from the ground up (which I know Stawski does, not sure if the others mentioned still do a pup now and then or not) they would teach all the skills to every dog in the same order. That is the key and that is what is meant by "program" teaching each skill set in a particular order to best help the dog understand what is expected. Now I will repeat "EXPERIENCE IS A HUGE LUXURY" and I will not live long enough to train thousands of dogs so I will lean on the experience of those that have. Trust me I am still learning the benefits of doing things in the order I do them and I have trained hundreds of dogs. How many do you think you will train in your lifetime? 

Cody I sure hope this helps, it sure helped me get through a 10 degree day when I was getting a bit stir crazy sitting in this house. Good luck with your dog and if I can be of any help just call me. I will be driving to Alabama on Saturday and will be just as bored as I was yesterday. Good luck with your dog and have fun.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

CodyC said:


> Wondering *how to build confidence* in the dog as far as hand signals and blind retrieves goes.
> is there something I need to do to drive it home??? Thanks in advance.


My reply is a little shorter 

Place the bumper 30 yards on short grass on it's end .


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Great post Tim. 


QUOTE=TIM DOANE;1174905]Now we are getting somewhere. You don't need to watch the computer all day just be careful taking advice from someone that has no idea what you have done with your dog yet has the solution for your problem.

First of all I have NEVER seen anyone that's new to dog training (not trained A LOT of dogs) get good results by "sort of following a program" and most certainly not by mixing a bit of this guys methods with a bit of that guys methods. They may think they have but probably lack the experience to know any better. To follow a proven sequential process will provide your best opportunity to get the most from any dog. Experience is a HUGE luxury that you are lacking so to me it just makes sense to use as much of someone else's as you can. Once you commit to someone else's experience stay the course do not mix it with anything else and do each step completely.

Myself I would never try to run blinds with a dog that has just finished mini t. the program I follow involves several more steps before cold blinds. The steps I use that you have skipped will go a long way to help your dog not only gain confidence but also understand exactly what is expected when running a blind. Here is where things can get tricky because if you go to the outline of the program I use and start with double T (which follows mini t) and you have not done all the previous steps involved in the program I use you may run into more problems. What I am saying here is that I don't know if your dog was ready for mini t so I really don't know if your dog was ready for double t. If you jump right into the program I use you will now have mixed 4 training programs.

If you want to train the dog yourself I would STRONGLEY SUGGEST you start from the beginning with ONE program and follow it through. If you have done some of the steps already do them over just to make sure the dog understands completely. If the dog does it wont take long at all. If you have someone that is an experienced dog trainer that can help and they feel the same way about sticking to one system use the program they use and when you have trouble they should be able to help you out. It's great that you want to do this yourself and great that you asked for help I commend you for that. Training a dog is not rocket science but it can get tricky when you lack experience.

For what it's worth I recommend Fowl Dawgs to all of my clients and pup buyers. If I am training a dog for someone I like them to own and be familiar with the program I use so they know how their dog was trained. If I sell a pup to someone and they train the dog themselves I recommend they also own and use fowl dawgs. In both cases if a problem comes up later they can call me and we can try to work it out together. Sometimes it can be done on the phone and sometimes they bring the dog over and we will get the dog going again. This only works because everyone is on the same page. Most of the time when I get a call to help someone they just did not get a previous step done completely or they for whatever reason thought they could skip something all together. That always puzzles me.

I have owned everyone's training material at one time. The stuff I have kept and use is the fowl dawgs and Lardy's TRT they are the same outline and sequence. I recommend fowl dawgs to all of my clients because it a great and complete program for $80.00 I really like the Lardy TRT as well but the entire program comes at a bit higher price.

I have used the word program so many times that I am sick of typing it. There may be some that will tell you don't need a "program" and will give you all kinds of reasons why not. Others will tell you how they mix 3 or 4 different programs and they have the best dog ever. I am not the most experienced guy on this forum, I have only trained a couple hundred dogs. (not sarcasm, that's not very many) The guys that have trained thousands are the ones I listen to and they gave me the same advice I gave you. Some will tell you Stawski and Lardy and Farmer don't train every dog exactly the same and I am sure that is true. I am sure if they were building one from the ground up (which I know Stawski does, not sure if the others mentioned still do a pup now and then or not) they would teach all the skills to every dog in the same order. That is the key and that is what is meant by "program" teaching each skill set in a particular order to best help the dog understand what is expected. Now I will repeat "EXPERIENCE IS A HUGE LUXURY" and I will not live long enough to train thousands of dogs so I will lean on the experience of those that have. Trust me I am still learning the benefits of doing things in the order I do them and I have trained hundreds of dogs. How many do you think you will train in your lifetime? 

Cody I sure hope this helps, it sure helped me get through a 10 degree day when I was getting a bit stir crazy sitting in this house. Good luck with your dog and if I can be of any help just call me. I will be driving to Alabama on Saturday and will be just as bored as I was yesterday. Good luck with your dog and have fun.[/QUOTE]


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Wow. Thanks a lot guys. I am on my lunch break and will read through this thoroughly when I get home this afternoon.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

tim,
where are you going in alabama. holler at me and lets train while you are here.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Try setting out a ladder of bumpers for him, place the first bumper at 15 yards and 5 more at 3-4 yards apart in a straight line leading to a small BP of 3 bumpers. Use white so he can see the next one coming up. After he gets this you can alternate using orange between the whites. You are teaching him to hold the line and keep moving until otherwise advised.


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks a lot for all the advice. It not only gives me hope but it kind of gives me ideas and gets me back on track


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Do you keep a journal to record each training session? For example, can you describe what you've done (setups) every day for the last two weeks?


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

KwickLabs said:


> Do you keep a journal to record each training session? For example, can you describe what you've done (setups) every day for the last two weeks?


No I don't. I train 10-15 mins at the time here and there when I can trying to balance keeping the training persistent and fresh with everything else I have going on. I should have kept a record and I thought about that the other day but I haven't so far. Maybe something I will start doing.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Joe Brakke said:


> Try setting out a ladder of bumpers for him, place the first bumper at 15 yards and 5 more at 3-4 yards apart in a straight line leading to a small BP of 3 bumpers. Use white so he can see the next one coming up. After he gets this you can alternate using orange between the whites. You are teaching him to hold the line and keep moving until otherwise advised.


If the dog is putting his nose down this will only make the problem worse. I have used and seen this method to teach dogs to HUNT on a blind, vs. keep their head up and run. Not what we generally want in a competition retriever. 

Read Tim Doane's response a couple of times Cody, and take it seriously. 

Back up if you have to, pick a course and do things in order, and thoroughly...

It works.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

CodyC said:


> I apologize for not responding immediately as I have other things going on so I can't just watch the computer non stop. Thanks a lot for the responses.
> 
> Yes, I force fetched the dog at 8 months and collar conditioned him. And maybe I wasn't clear but this is really simple casting (baseball drill). I am sort of following a training program. I am watching Evan Grahams DVD's as well as Wildrose and gun dogs basics.


Cody,

You're welcome to contact me anytime at [email protected] , or call me at 816-213-9397. I think there is an informational disconnect here that needs to be fixed right away. It starts with "sort of following a training program." Let's talk.

Evan


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

If anyone has already said this, I've overlooked it.

It used to be, before the advent of all of the "programs," that the best and almost universal advice given for a post like this one was "get hands-on help from an experienced trainer (amateur or pro)." In my opinion that's still the best approach. Yes, published materials have come a long way, and there are getting to be a lot of people who have achieved impressive things with their retrievers using them. But a good trainer can assess where your dog is now and what he needs to know (better than just "go back and do all the steps"), and can help you "read" your dog at each step of the way. If you develop a relationship with a pro (or a training group), you can get access to grounds to train on, feedback on your dog, and the opportunity to learn a great deal by watching other dogs work and learn.

North Carolina has a lot of retriever people. I'm starting to wonder if we might have the highest density of pros per square mile of any state.

There are also a lot of active clubs here and in South Carolina. "Join a club" is another piece of advice we used to hear all of the time, that is still good advice.

Amy Dahl


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

afdahl said:


> If anyone has already said this, I've overlooked it.
> 
> It used to be, before the advent of all of the "programs," that the best and almost universal advice given for a post like this one was "get hands-on help from an experienced trainer (amateur or pro)." In my opinion that's still the best approach. Yes, published materials have come a long way, and there are getting to be a lot of people who have achieved impressive things with their retrievers using them. But a good trainer can assess where your dog is now and what he needs to know (better than just "go back and do all the steps"), and can help you "read" your dog at each step of the way. If you develop a relationship with a pro (or a training group), you can get access to grounds to train on, feedback on your dog, and the opportunity to learn a great deal by watching other dogs work and learn.
> 
> ...


now Amy, for just 3 easy payments of 69.99 plus handling, tax, coffee and a donut, your dog will be fixed because all it needs is a program. 

/Paul


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> now Amy, for just 3 easy payments of 69.99 plus handling, tax, coffee and a donut, your dog will be fixed because all it needs is a program.
> 
> /Paul


You're right, I'm working 'way too hard here. It's a new year; time for a new approach. What's the address to send the payments?

Amy Dahl


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> now Amy, for just 3 easy payments of 69.99 plus handling, tax, coffee and a donut, your dog will be fixed because all it needs is a program.
> 
> /Paul


Far too funny for me!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Or you can head on down to the comedy club tonight and at least have your chain yanked by a _professional_ comedian. How much you spend will vary. But you can also choose to _sort of follow_ his jokes, and see if he's just as funny as the comedians here on the forum. So many choices; so little time.

Evan


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> If the dog is putting his nose down this will only make the problem worse. I have used and seen this method to teach dogs to HUNT on a blind, vs. keep their head up and run. Not what we generally want in a competition retriever.


Couldn't agree more!..I suggested earlier a 'No brain'er' drill to ''Build confidence'' in retrieving and handling. 
We use much the same technique with Spaniels , creating a ''One arm Bandit freak'' at Las vegas!....where he get's three cherries on every trip!....then once the sucker is hooked, You just increase the distance ....and the odds'....depending on how far you want to go?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Or you can head on down to the comedy club tonight and at least have your chain yanked by a _professional_ comedian. How much you spend will vary. But you can also choose to _sort of follow_ his jokes, and see if he's just as funny as the comedians here on the forum. So many choices; so little time.
> 
> Evan


Now Even don't lose your sense of humor over some light hearted ribbing. Telling someone to get with a pro or at least a good experienced AM trainer is never bad advice. Some things just can't be fixed by a program. Look at the RTF'er with the dog that is popping or was is spinning, you know the one doing T work or was it baseball? You ask people to post vids of the problem more than anyone so you surely understand why the trainers on the forum recommend getting with someone to see the problem. Besides if we didn't give you a hard time then Nutt would be taking all the heat all the time....

/Paul


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Now Even don't lose your sense of humor over some light hearted ribbing. Telling someone to get with a pro or at least a good experienced AM trainer is never bad advice. Some things just can't be fixed by a program. Look at the RTF'er with the dog that is popping or was is spinning, you know the one doing T work or was it baseball? You ask people to post vids of the problem more than anyone so you surely understand why the trainers on the forum recommend getting with someone to see the problem. Besides if we didn't give you a hard time then Nutt would be taking all the heat all the time....
> 
> /Paul


Getting hands on advice and assistance from an experienced trainer who actually trains dogs does not sell DVD's and can actually fix a problem. Surprised you did not know that.
MP


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

polmaise said:


> Couldn't agree more!..I suggested earlier a 'No brain'er' drill to ''Build confidence'' in retrieving and handling.
> We use much the same technique with Spaniels , creating a ''One arm Bandit freak'' at Las vegas!....where he get's three cherries on every trip!....then once the sucker is hooked, You just increase the distance ....and the odds'....depending on how far you want to go?


most assuredly!


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

afdahl said:


> You're right, I'm working 'way too hard here. It's a new year; time for a new approach. What's the address to send the payments?
> 
> Amy Dahl


Sorry Amy it doesn't work that way. The dog doesn't watch the dvd the trainer does and then the trainer goes out and trains the dog. Still gotta work sister 

I do agree with getting together with a pro. In fact I suggested to the OP that if he could find a nearby pro that uses one of the programs he was using that it would be good to stick to that particular program so when he ran into trouble the pro would be able to help. You suggested a "good Pro" and I believe any good pro would want to know exactly what the op had done with the dog prior to seeking help. How nice would it be if the answer was I followed Fowl dawgs or TRT and completed each step all the way to double t. Seems to me that would be much easier than "I sort of followed smart works and duck dog basics and mixed in some 10 minute magic when I only had 10 minutes".

For me I love it when a pup buyer wants to train their own pup. I really like it when they get involved with more experienced people that can help them when their own lack of experience has them wondering if they are on the right track or if they run into trouble. I have found that when I get a call from a pup buyer or a client that is having an issue it is VERY helpful for everyone to be on the same page. What seems to get them in the most trouble is when they ask for help and get it from someone who never even bothered to ask them what skills they have taught the dog before they give advice.

What really puzzles me is why people would get there panties all bunched up because it was suggested to a novice dog trainer trying to train their own dog that they stick to a proven system to better their chance of getting as good of a result as dog and trainer are capable of. When I read all of the advice given to this young man on how to get a dog going on blinds when he has not even taught the dog to handle or even, as far as we know sit on a whistle and the big complaint is why is everyone telling him to stick to a "program" REALLY?

I hope he does start over and follow Rick Stawski or Mike Lardy so he can learn how one step builds towards another and how these dogs can learn so much if they are given a real chance at understanding what we are asking them to do. I am very glad I started with the $69.99 program as it has really helped me do a better job with the dogs I get a chance to work with. I really hope that I will learn as much in the next 5 years as I have in the last five years and I am really grateful to the folks that poured their hard work into making the $69.99 program so that I did not waste five years stumbling my way through just to get an understanding of what they taught me on their DVD's


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> Sorry Amy it doesn't work that way. The dog doesn't watch the dvd the trainer does and then the trainer goes out and trains the dog. Still gotta work sister
> 
> I do agree with getting together with a pro. In fact I suggested to the OP that if he could find a nearby pro that uses one of the programs he was using that it would be good to stick to that particular program so when he ran into trouble the pro would be able to help. You suggested a "good Pro" and I believe any good pro would want to know exactly what the op had done with the dog prior to seeking help. How nice would it be if the answer was I followed Fowl dawgs or TRT and completed each step all the way to double t. Seems to me that would be much easier than "I sort of followed smart works and duck dog basics and mixed in some 10 minute magic when I only had 10 minutes".
> 
> ...



A couple people in this thread have sent the OP a link to a knowlageble Pro, Nationally known, by the name of Farmer.

That link has an article titled "starting cold blinds."

Before Mr Farmer starts discussing blinds, he explaines what the pre~requisites are.
So, the OP got that information very early on, if he chose to read it, like maybe some of you should.

Its very good.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> A couple people in this thread have sent the OP a link to a knowlageble Pro, Nationally known, by the name of Farmer.
> 
> That link has an article titled "starting cold blinds."
> 
> ...


And its a great article I have read it many times, and it was good advice. I am wondering why you quoted me in your reply?


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> A couple people in this thread have sent the OP a link to a knowlageble Pro, Nationally known, by the name of Farmer.
> 
> That link has an article titled "starting cold blinds."
> 
> ...


So if you said to the op "Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very
solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar
conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced
from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The
first thing I do after completing the double-T is to teach the dog handling and casting
wagon wheel."
And then asked him do you know what this means and do you know how to teach all of these skills and his answer was no what would you advise next?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Let's face it, every pro is going to ask about the dogs history. What has been done or not done. Honesty is key, many times the dogs I get the owner says I did X, but it's clear that wasn't finished. Seeing the dog says it all. A good structure is needed, that's the only value I see in videos, outside of that you have to read the dog and only experienced dog people can do that. I know I give Evan crap, perhaps that is unfair, however we are talking about living breathing creatures, unique and individual and every one of them need personal attention. Read the dog in front of you. 

/Paul


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

really recommend 2nd edition of Lardy. for building confidence you can set your dog at the blind. Go to the line and call your dog in. Line your dog up and run the blind.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> So if you said to the op "Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very
> solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar
> conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced
> from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The
> ...



The OP asked for a PROS advice!

Gooser shouldnt even be gettin involved... 

I think the link to a very knowageble Pro said it all..

MAYBE since the OP wanted a Pros adive,, and got the direction to a Pros site,, well just maybe he will ask that Pro directly...

Gooser isnt the one to ask (or give advice) about what HE (Gooser) WOULD DO......

I have learned!!!!  got the scares to proove it!


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> The OP asked for a PROS advice!
> 
> Gooser shouldnt even be gettin involved...
> 
> ...


I do not disagree with that AT ALL. Its great advice. I just think following a program start to finish is the way to go for ANYONE that wants to train their own dog and lacks experience. THAT WAY when the issues come up, AND THEY WILL it is a lot easier to get help. I recommend that novice trainers watch the segment of the training they are currently working on every day before they go train no matter how long they are on that skill, watch it every day. THAT WAY when they ask for help they should at least remember what they have done and in what order. To me it just makes sense. I don't sell DVD's for myself or anyone else and I don't care much for the practice of chasing folks around here doing so for personal gain. I believe the training material I started with GREATLY shortened the learning curve for me and can do the same for everyone else that has the common sense to follow the advice and STICK TO THE PROGRAM. I have stated several times in my past post that getting help from a pro is a VERY GOOD idea.

I understand that when you get to spend time with a good pro and watch him work you get to see him use a different approach to teach the same skill to different dogs. I know that one approach will not work for every dog, I GET THAT. But every pro I know that is any good follows the same sequence when it comes to teaching the skills that build a good retriever 99% of the time. They have a particular order that they teach things and they stick to it because it works for them and their job depends on it. That is what a "PROGRAM" is, it may be of their own design but it is a "PROGRM" none the less.

Ask Chris if he could get a dog running blinds buy sticking a bumper on end in the grass at 30 yards when the dog has only been thru mini T and we don't know if it was forced proper or even sits on a whistle yet. ;-)

I think we agree on a lot of this stuff Gooser maybe you thought I was saying all the advice Cody was getting was bad. I was not saying that AT ALL. I was just really hoping someone could help me understand why when folks started telling the op all the one drill easy fix stuff the thread went to "PROGRAM" bashing. What I was telling him is the same thing you did. STUDY some material from someone that has got building a good dog figured out and go from there. Then get help if you need it.

Have a good day Gooser and if you see Chris soon tell him I said hi.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Be carefull who you listen to....Being a Pro in a lot of cases simply means that they have taken money for training or handeling Retrievers.

In the case of Danny Farmer this is far from the case.... _If done at the propper time in the the dogs training_, the way he outlined , though you *may* still face some problems, the odds are that they will be less difficult to resolve than if you tried to take shortcuts with the dog.

john


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Tim thanks for your responses! I hope the OP and the rest of us understand the importance of a really solid foundation before we jump from A to B. Be fair to the dog and yourself.

*From Tim*:
*So if you said to the op "Before I even consider starting a young dog on blinds I make sure there is a very
solid foundation in the dog's basic training. This means he is well force broke, collar
conditioned and has spent a long time mastering the double-T. He should be forced
from your side, forced en route to the back pile and casting to two sets of overs. The
first thing I do after completing the double-T is to teach the dog handling and casting
wagon wheel."*


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Be carefull who you listen to....Being a Pro in a lot of cases simply means that they have taken money for training or handeling Retrievers.
> 
> In the case of Danny Farmer this is far from the case.... _If done at the propper time in the the dogs training_, the way he outlined , though you *may* still face some problems, the odds are that they will be less difficult to resolve than if you tried to take shortcuts with the dog.
> 
> john


very true statement


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Be carefull who you listen to....Being a Pro in a lot of cases simply means that they have taken money for training or handeling Retrievers.
> 
> In the case of Danny Farmer this is far from the case.... _If done at the propper time in the the dogs training, the way he outlined , though you maystill face some problems, the odds are that they will be less difficult to resolve than if you tried to take shortcuts with the dog._


Let me play unorganized thinker here
Are you saying Mr Danny (southern idiom) does not take money for training or handling retrievers,,, If so what is his reason for avoiding running the amatuer. I think he would do well in that venue,,,( end of unorganized thought)
The OP asked for advice from dog trainers who do this for a living. Those who responded ,,did so with reasonable internet responses.
Pete


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I do not know what I said or did to provoke the strong reactions from Evan and Tim. I don't see how my post can be construed as attacking "programs," although perhaps just the fact that I spoke up, and many of you know my attitude regarding programs, makes it seem that way. I did try to be respectful.

I am a member of the group the OP asked for responses. I think it's fair, in fact desirable, to let newbies know that differences of opinion exist among those of us with enough experience to have a sense of what we're doing. Further, I gave good advice that in my opinion needed to be included.

It appears to me that of the beginners who have done decently using "programs," the fact that they have also sought out clubs and experienced training buddies has been a help. People training in isolation can go pretty badly awry--I know, I've fixed some of their dogs.

I have disagreed with most of what has been posted on this thread but have not wanted to hijack it with arguments. I will respond to the following, hoping that it will not mushroom.



TIM DOANE said:


> You suggested a "good Pro" and I believe any good pro would want to know exactly what the op had done with the dog prior to seeking help.


I think what I said was an experienced dog trainer. There are plenty of amateurs whose help would be a thing to have. I would not be that concerned with quizzing a dog's owner as to what had been done. In my experience, dog owners can think they've done a routine effectively when they haven't, and they can embellish to impress me. Dogs don't lie. They show what they know and what they don't. I can come up with a plan of action for that particular dog to address the things it doesn't know. By leaving out extraneous steps, I get the dog and owner to the goal faster, which is positively reinforcing to the owner.

I do get valuable information from listening to what owners tell me, but what I find most helpful is how the dog reacted when the owner did this or that, not which routines were attempted and for how long.

Tim, by your definition I am not "a good Pro." I am not going to get worked up over this; I simply put it down to our having different ideas about how best to train dogs and educate owners. It would be fine with me if you would also relax a bit regarding our differences, or else explain to me what I said that you find offensive. Because I have no idea.

Amy Dahl


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Amy I think you are a good pro , not that I know you or have seen you work but I have heard great things about you from people I trust. Sorry if you think I was offended, I was not. I was just speaking my opinion.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I think what I said was an experienced dog trainer. There are plenty of amateurs whose help would be a thing to have. I would not be that concerned with quizzing a dog's owner as to what had been done. In my experience, dog owners can think they've done a routine effectively when they haven't, and they can embellish to impress me. Dogs don't lie. They show what they know and what they don't. I can come up with a plan of action for that particular dog to address the things it doesn't know. By leaving out extraneous steps, I get the dog and owner to the goal faster, which is positively reinforcing to the owner.
> 
> I do get valuable information from listening to what owners tell me, but what I find most helpful is how the dog reacted when the owner did this or that, not which routines were attempted and for how long.


I would totally agree with you Amy. programs smograms,,when it comes to problem solving. But I also think Tim is correct,,I didn't see him contradicting what or how you do something ,,,rather looking at it using a different route in kind. Neither is wrong just different .
Programs don't fix squat,,,people who have trained a lot of dogs will testify to that,, but it is something that a new person with no help can go by for guidance.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pete said:


> Let me play unorganized thinker here
> Are you saying Mr Danny (southern idiom) does not take money for training or handling retrievers,,, If so what is his reason for avoiding running the amatuer. I think he would do well in that venue,,,( end of unorganized thought)
> The OP asked for advice from dog trainers who do this for a living. Those who responded ,,did so with reasonable internet responses.
> 
> Pete


Yes Pete, Mr Danny takes money for training and handling retrievers, IMO he is among, if not the top FT pro/'s in the country.

What I did say was that all pros are not created equally, ...........

john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Yes Pete, Mr Danny takes money for training and handling retrievers, IMO he is among, if not the top FT pro/'s in the country.
> 
> What I did say was that all pros are not created equally, ...........
> 
> john


I agree with you John. Even in the face of his selling DVD's, still he manages to be an excellent trainer. If CodyC could connect with him he'd do well. I'm friends with one of Danny's assistant trainers, if he'd like to pay a visit. What about it Cody?

Evan


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Yes I am interested. Again, thanks to everyone who has helped and thrown in advice.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Okay Cody,

I'll get in touch with him and will email you information.

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> I do not disagree with that AT ALL. Its great advice. I just think following a program start to finish is the way to go for ANYONE that wants to train their own dog and lacks experience. THAT WAY when the issues come up, AND THEY WILL it is a lot easier to get help. I recommend that novice trainers watch the segment of the training they are currently working on every day before they go train no matter how long they are on that skill, watch it every day. THAT WAY when they ask for help they should at least remember what they have done and in what order. To me it just makes sense. I don't sell DVD's for myself or anyone else and I don't care much for the practice of chasing folks around here doing so for personal gain. I believe the training material I started with GREATLY shortened the learning curve for me and can do the same for everyone else that has the common sense to follow the advice and STICK TO THE PROGRAM. I have stated several times in my past post that getting help from a pro is a VERY GOOD idea.
> 
> I understand that when you get to spend time with a good pro and watch him work you get to see him use a different approach to teach the same skill to different dogs. I know that one approach will not work for every dog, I GET THAT. But every pro I know that is any good follows the same sequence when it comes to teaching the skills that build a good retriever 99% of the time. They have a particular order that they teach things and they stick to it because it works for them and their job depends on it. That is what a "PROGRAM" is, it may be of their own design but it is a "PROGRM" none the less.
> 
> ...


I wasnt arguing with anyone!! Who the He!! on this board would take Gooser serious anyways!!! If someone raised their hand ,, put it back down, and slap yerself with it!!

I just wanted to point out what Jiggy posted,and the link to Mr. Farmeres site,, that might raise questions in the OP's mind about what the T is what the TT is,,what a casting wagon wheel is,, and what a lining wagon wheel is..

Gooser could go to several seminars,, sit and watch a DVD,,, but,,, Gooser would get distracted at the seminar by the hot girl in the back of the class,,, or,, as far as a DVD would go,, be asleep in ten minutes because he would dream about the smell of the haybales in the presentation..

It wasnt till,, someone of a very high experience level,, took Gooser aside,, slapped him around a bit,, that got my attention..

I am the typ that learns by someone SHOWING me in real time,, with the dog I hve,, what I am doing wrong...

Some of the DVD's will tell you that with a good dog,, the T will go pretty fast.. It doesnt say much about good dog and an idiot for a handler..

Flinches Pile,, T and TT didnt go particuarly fast,, but we BOTH learned a ton,, and the Pro managed to get through teaching us this step,, without killin Gooser...... It was close at times though

There is no better way to learn,, at least for Gooser,,than to have experience directly talking in your ear,,and a boot in yer arse,, when Ya screw up.. PRICELESS..

I seriously cannot stay awake during DVD,s,,, my eyes glaze over,,, I start to daydream,, and then ,,,,, well..... its a mess!!

Someday,,, I hope to be able to Honor with Flinch,, one of Chris's dogs in a Master test..... I seriously cant wait...

Hope to shake hands with you someday Tim..


Gooser

Gooser


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I wasnt arguing with anyone!! Who the He!! on this board would take Gooser serious anyways!!! If someone raised their hand ,, put it back down, and slap yerself with it!!
> 
> I just wanted to point out what Jiggy posted,and the link to Mr. Farmeres site,, that might raise questions in the OP's mind about what the T is what the TT is,,what a casting wagon wheel is,, and what a lining wagon wheel is..
> 
> ...


Are You Scottish? ..If Gooser comes over here ..give us a call


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Yes Pete, Mr Danny takes money for training and handling retrievers, IMO he is among, if not the top FT pro/'s in the country.
> 
> What I did say was that all pros are not created equally, ...........
> 
> john


I knew that John I was just being a goof, its seldom you word something that way in Fallon Fashion so I took advantage of it.,, DF is among the best FT trainers in the U.S. There is no way to say if someone is the best. Just way to many variables involved. But surely amongst the best.

It doesn't take a top FT trainer to know how to make a dog run long blinds competently.,,, so the OP would best be served with a local Joe whoever that might be. I think most of people who train dogs for a living do a good job for what they do. 

Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pete said:


> It doesn't take a top FT trainer to know how to make a dog run long blinds *competently*.,,, so the OP would best be served with a local Joe whoever that might be. I think most of people who train dogs for a living do a good job for what they do.
> Pete


That depends...Some do. some not so much so.

E.g., I was once told that "Rex" once said "We've" ruined more dogs than we've made"

I have often wondered about the validity of the many aspects of that .......?

john


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

Regardless of what "program" you elect to follow... Confidence is built on success. Teach before you force.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEThat depends...Some do. some not so much so.

E.g., I was once told that "Rex" once said "We've" ruined more dogs than we've made"

I have often wondered about the validity of the many aspects of that .......?

john][/QUOTE]

That would depend on the context may be.
was that referring to FT's? I'm guessing he wasn't talking about hunting dogs. Was that referring to a time where dogs were started at very high levels of electric stimuli? Looking back,,,, When I first started brutal methods were common ,,,so he may be correct.,,,at least for back then. I'll bet he was speaking for his day and time 

Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pete said:


> [QUOTEThat depends...Some do. some not so much so.
> 
> E.g., I was once told that "Rex" once said "We've" ruined more dogs than we've made"
> 
> ...


That would depend on the context may be.
was that referring to FT's? I'm guessing he wasn't talking about hunting dogs. Was that referring to a time where dogs were started at very high levels of electric stimuli? Looking back,,,, When I first started brutal methods were common ,,,so he may be correct.,,,at least for back then. I'll bet he was speaking for his day and time 

Pete[/QUOTE]

I think they were also doing a ton of experimentation on methods and sequences at that point also, weren't they? 

In today's world enough dogs have been collar conditioned and taught to handle that we should have a road map to work from, preventing dogs from getting "ruined". Maybe they aren't suited for the work and get washed out but ruining one is a matter of ignorance IMHO at this point, or... experimentation gone wrong.


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

the way I read it is
Its a general statement on the application of training regardless of venue. The quote of "train the trainer" applies here. Programs, principles, guidelines, steps its all the same thing. Too many people want to win the race with out preparing for it accordingly. If you reverse the concept of dog training and educate and train ones self and then take it to the yard then the odds are the person and dog will have less problems to deal with because the homework was done in place before. By soliciting an experienced person (coach) along the way then it even increases your odds even better to address problems when they arise which is IMO related to reading the dog and the person and that is where experience is most certainly needed. 
JMHO


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Cody,

Check your PMs. There is an excellent pro very near you and you should also reach out and join Tidewater RC. It is a great group, many of whom are on RTF and many train quite near you very regularly. You are really in a good location to hook up with some experienced and helpful folks not too far away. I sent you some contact information.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> That depends...Some do. some not so much so.
> 
> E.g., I was once told that "Rex" once said "We've" ruined more dogs than we've made"
> 
> ...


John,

The "we" in that statement was collective. We in the (FT) training community at large. But that sprang from a broader conversation that took in some of the barbaric practices of the past as well.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Evan said:


> > I was once told that "Rex" once said "We've" ruined* more dogs than we've made"
> 
> 
> John,
> ...



Taking what you say as a given, do you think that to some degree that still holds true for the FT training community at large today ....?


john



* Ruined- In addition to the conventional sense...also by not reaching anywhere near their potential /underacheving


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

DoubleHaul said:


> Cody,
> 
> Check your PMs. There is an excellent pro very near you and you should also reach out and join Tidewater RC. It is a great group, many of whom are on RTF and many train quite near you very regularly. You are really in a good location to hook up with some experienced and helpful folks not too far away. I sent you some contact information.


Thank you very much.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Taking what you say as a given, do you think that to some degree that still holds true for the FT training community at large today ....?
> 
> 
> john
> ...


I'm glad you asked John. I really believe that has been turned on its head, statistically. So many people have abandoned the old school harsher implements, and have moved to a Carr-based method that more are being allowed to develop with less pressure than ever. And I do believe many more are reaching, or nearly reaching their potential than ever before.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Evan said:


> I'm glad you asked John. I really believe that has been turned on its head, statistically. So many people have abandoned the old school harsher implements, and have moved to a Carr-based method that more are being allowed to develop with less pressure than ever. And I do believe many more are reaching, or nearly reaching their potential than ever before.
> 
> Evan


Evan, 

I am afraid that on that I must dissagree

I subscribe to the 35 / 65% or so nature nurture ratio... For me the depth of the talent pool from which to draw dogs coupled with the concentration of AA success from a relatively few handlers does not statistically support you conclusion.
The amount of pressure still used by this group to achieve this success.........???
john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEI am afraid that on that I must dissagree

I subscribe to the 35 / 65% or so nature nurture ratio... For me the depth of the talent pool from which to draw dogs coupled with the concentration of AA success from a relatively few handlers does not statistically support you conclusion.
The amount of pressure still used by this group to achieve this success.........???
john][/QUOTE]

Have you figured in some of the variables

Time invested/per contestant
Grounds available/ per contestant
monetary resources/ per contestant
commitment levels per contestant
knowledge level per contestant
knowledgeable group to train with 4 or 5 days a week
these are important variables
Most people I know lack some if not most of these things yet make a decent showing for the lack of resoarces. Way better than 25 years ago.
Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pete said:


> Have you figured in some of the variables
> 
> Time invested/per contestant
> Grounds available/ per contestant
> ...


Yes, those things you have listed are but a few of the things that comprise the nurture side of the equotation.

"Make a decent showing", perhaps you would quantify that for us ?

john


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Tim and a few others already said it, but I will reiterate. Follow a single, well known program from start to finish without skipping or glossing over any steps. I think you will find that you better understand how your dog thinks and how to motivate it in training as you advance it through the program. You will make mistakes along the way and you may hit some snags, but that's ok. Working your way through the problems will make you a better trainer.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Dogs often finish and sometimes bring home primary colors.
For people who just can't be as serious as they would like to be ,because of the lack of resources,,,this is very admirable

Yes the same people who have been around forever are often the most successful,,,and the biggest reason for this are some of the things I listed. I do believe most things in life are this way. They put in their time and have the resources,,, They get what they deserve,which is success. BUT many others do pretty good for what they have invested.
Something that has helped is "training alone techniques" 
Flight RTF 1514 to control tower "I think we've been hijacked"


Pete


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Ok so after talking with a local pro on the phone, It appears that I am pretty close to being on track with a few things that need tweaking. I am going go back to Force to Pile and extend the distance out to 150 yds. As a matter of fact, I am going to extend everything I do with him out to a distance (marks, FTP, etc) that seems to be one thing that I was doing wrong, keeping everything in close. I am going to follow his program which is pretty much along the lines of everyone else's and it just so happens that what I have done so far is right on cue with what he suggests so I got lucky there. 

I made it clear to him that this was not going to be a field trial dog and I was just going to hunt him but wanted to be able to handle well on blinds and so forth. So, I am going to go from force to pile to teaching the dog back casting, followed by over casting (base ball drill pretty much), then to T with backs, stops, and overs, then double T, followed by water T, then cold blinds. 

I am also going to mingle in some long marks with a bumper boy and drive home some "follow that gun" and help him mark according to which direction I point him. 

First, let me know if you think there is something else in there that needs to be done that may have been missed or will help along the way.
Second, this is not my last post and don't get aggravated if you see me asking questions as I go. I think I can handle it but this dog has fooled me before by doing things that I didn't think he was capable of as well as not being to do things my other dog could at half his age. 

Again, BIG thanks to everyone for the help and advice.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Be careful with the marks you throw with the BB they are really hard to see at a distance, I got rid of mine for that reason. I thought past 200 yards they were fairly worthless.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

CodyC said:


> Ok so after talking with a local pro on the phone, It appears that I am pretty close to being on track with a few things that need tweaking. I am going go back to Force to Pile and extend the distance out to 150 yds. As a matter of fact, I am going to extend everything I do with him out to a distance (marks, FTP, etc) that seems to be one thing that I was doing wrong, keeping everything in close. I am going to follow his program which is pretty much along the lines of everyone else's and it just so happens that what I have done so far is right on cue with what he suggests so I got lucky there.
> 
> I made it clear to him that this was not going to be a field trial dog and I was just going to hunt him but wanted to be able to handle well on blinds and so forth. So, I am going to go from force to pile to teaching the dog back casting, followed by over casting (base ball drill pretty much), then to T with backs, stops, and overs, then double T, followed by water T, then cold blinds.
> 
> ...


So you were just doing 3 handed casting after walking fetch and not really mini T? Have you already FTP?


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Yes I have forced to Pile and was working on mini T but now I am going to back to force to pile for a day or two at longer distances and then driving home baseball drill teaching reinforcing overs and backs, then going to T work.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

At what distance did you FTP?


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

pheona said:


> really recommend 2nd edition of Lardy. for building confidence you can set your dog at the blind. Go to the line and call your dog in. Line your dog up and run the blind.


I got this advice from a very seasoned amateur, particularly for teaching in-and-outs, stuff like that. Chop up the blind into 3 or 4 segments and run the last segment first, receive your dog there, walk back to the beginning of the second segment, call your dog to you, then run to the blind. Lather, rinse, repeat. 

I don't think the OP is anywhere near this stage from the information presented. 

As the rankest of rank amateurs, I would give three suggestions to anybody starting to train a dog.

1) Get a program before you get the pup and watch it all the way through several times. You still won't know very much, but maybe you can get a good start on the new vocabulary you are going to need to play this game. It wouldn't hurt to get Volume 1 of the Lardy articles and read the ink off of the pages. 

2) Get involved with a training group in your area. The programs are great for at least getting you in the ballpark, but you are going to run into several things in training that completely stump you. One of your experienced training group partners might be able to offer a solution, like throwing a white bucket to get your dog across a scented point, or so I have been told. They can also help you read your dog, and help you figure out when your dog is maybe over correcting after getting a correction and when they are just giving you the finger.

3) Using your training group contacts, find a good pro to probably do FF and CC on your dog. These seem straightforward when you read about them, but they both require a good amount of timing that only experience brings. And they are both so fundamental to what you are trying to do that you really want these things to be done correctly. Also, you can get some good training about the proper use of the collar as well.

Just my $0.02. YMMV.


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Tony Marshall said:


> At what distance did you FTP?


Was doing 40-50 yards but now I am going to 100-150 yards. 

I have access to a big field that's about a half a mile walk that we do most of our work in but it's more convenient and timely to do a lot in the yard (which only gets me to about 50 yrds), I will admit that is my biggest downfall, getting the dog out of his comfort zone (the yard) and getting somewhere I can spread out and have plenty of room.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Cody, I would advise you to tread cautiously here. From reading your posts you seem very anxious to train your dog. That's a good thing, it's supposed to be fun. I must tell you though that creating distance in the situation that you described in your original post will not magically fix your problem. There is no instant gratification in dog training. It's not going to hurt anything but I don't care if you "line to Philidelphia" as Wolters used to say, there is still going to be a learning curve when transitioning from one step to the next. If you have your dog properly forced to the pile where you can use enroute force with no adverse reactions then there is no reason to revisit the drill. You have done the right thing by teaching things on a small scale. TEACH short and then increased distance. It just doesn't make much sense to me to line out to 150 just to come back and run T at 25-50. The same will apply when you move to cold blinds. I don't care if your dog was running T or TT out to 1000 yards they are going to break down when going to an unknown destination until they build confidence. That means starting short and going long. I hope you are successful just don't fall into the trap of testing your dog instead of teaching.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Evan,
> 
> I am afraid that on that I must dissagree
> 
> ...


What is he definition of potential and success? I can tell you get more money for potential than reality

/Paul


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Tony I wondered this too. It is my understanding that FTP is out to about 50 yards and you would transition to the mini-T at about half that distance and then work all the way out through the TT.

It is very difficult when you are just starting to understand the amount of teaching you actually have to do. It is discouraging when you think you are ready to move on and the wheels fall off. Or when you move from doing FTP in the yard to a different location for mini-T and TT and you almost have to teach FTP again because they do not generalize very well. 

You have to learn that your dog learns at your dog's pace. It picks up some things like a champ, and it can absolutely hang up for a few days on something that you think should take one day. It just is what it is, and sometimes your best tactic is to back up to something you know the dog can do, have some success, and quit on a high note. 

Be patient and teach. And most of all don't listen to anybody who starts to tell you how their dog was doing so-and-so by that age. It's not a race, and you cannot win training day or schedule comparisons. 



Tony Marshall said:


> It just doesn't make much sense to me to line out to 150 just to come back and run T at 25-50. The same will apply when you move to cold blinds. I don't care if your dog was running T or TT out to 1000 yards they are going to break down when going to an unknown destination until they build confidence. That means starting short and going long. I hope you are successful just don't fall into the trap of testing your dog instead of teaching.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I FTP at 100 yards minimum. You can't really read response in anything shorter

/Paul


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Tony Marshall said:


> Cody, I would advise you to tread cautiously here. From reading your posts you seem very anxious to train your dog. That's a good thing, it's supposed to be fun. I must tell you though that creating distance in the situation that you described in your original post will not magically fix your problem. There is no instant gratification in dog training. It's not going to hurt anything but I don't care if you "line to Philidelphia" as Wolters used to say, there is still going to be a learning curve when transitioning from one step to the next. If you have your dog properly forced to the pile where you can use enroute force with no adverse reactions then there is no reason to revisit the drill. You have done the right thing by teaching things on a small scale. TEACH short and then increased distance. It just doesn't make much sense to me to line out to 150 just to come back and run T at 25-50. The same will apply when you move to cold blinds. I don't care if your dog was running T or TT out to 1000 yards they are going to break down when going to an unknown destination until they build confidence. That means starting short and going long. I hope you are successful just don't fall into the trap of testing your dog instead of teaching.


Kudos!

When we teach....there is no ego involved...and we think in dog terms only. When the human tendency is involved, it clouds our objective and becomes ludicrous.


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks a lot. I agree that pushing the distance out is not going to magically fix things but it is something that needs to be done to give the dog confidence that distance is not a factor. The trainer I talked with mentioned that the dog will perform flawlessly when finished on any task as long as he was taught that task. I will admit I was in a little bit of a hurry but things were going very smoothly until we started the more complicated task. The guy I talked with was more amendment on revisiting what was already done and slowing down and doing it more thorough before moving on.


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

We ran some 100 yard FTP this afternoon and he did pretty good. At first you could tell that he was a little confused at the distance. He saw exactly where I put the pile but it was further than his comfort zone so he slowed down when he got to about 70 yards. I nicked him and gave him the back command again and he continued out to the pile. After he found the pile, it was on and he was rocking. He ran the next three rounds perfect. His lining is a little off, but I figure after a couple of more days of FTP at 100-150 yards he will be good to go to the next level.


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