# Charcoal Labs????



## Andrew Fairchild (May 19, 2011)

I'm new to the whole training thing. I pick up Lexi 2 weeks from today. Yay!!! I was wondering what everyone thought about the whole charcoal lab. Are they full blood? How did they come to be charcoal when all you heard about for a long time are yellow, black, and chocolate. Do they have the same drive and personalities as what you expect from a lab?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Is Lexie a charcoal lab? There is some debate on whether or not these odd colors are pure bred. A more immediate concern would be health clearances. Sometimes these "special color" breeders are not as diligent in getting the hips rated, eyes checked, tests for eic and cnm, etc. I would not buy a puppy without these at the very least. The rest is all preferences and personal taste.


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## Pudelpointer (Jul 27, 2010)

I have never heard of a "Charcoal Lab"?


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Pudelpointer said:


> I have never heard of a "Charcoal Lab"?


Same as a Silver Lab


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Just have to watch for someone breeding for color and not proformance. You might end up with a nice pet if there isnt a decent pedigree to go with it. Not saying all must have a loaded pedigree. Its a variation of chocolate.


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## Adam DeLancey (Feb 18, 2011)

I have to warn you will catch a lot of heat on this site about charcoal and silver labs. I have a silver lab and his dad was chocolat and his mother was black but they both carried the charcoal factor and silver factor. Your dog will be regisetred as a Black lab if I am not mistaking because its basically a dilute black dog. They are pure lab by every way shape and form. Some say they are mixed but they are not. The coloring comes from a recessive gene just like the color that makes the yellow and chocolate dogs. They have the same drive as any other lab in the retreiver club I am in. And he has a very friendly / want to please personality just like most all labs have. Welcome to the site post some pics of your new pup when you get it.


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## Pudelpointer (Jul 27, 2010)

I had a BLF that turned mostly silver when she was 14 but she started black. I have never heard of, or have seen anything but the big three colors.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

afairchild0103 said:


> I'm new to the whole training thing. I pick up Lexi 2 weeks from today. Yay!!! I was wondering what everyone thought about the whole charcoal lab. Are they full blood? How did they come to be charcoal when all you heard about for a long time are yellow, black, and chocolate. Do they have the same drive and personalities as what you expect from a lab?


Do a little searching on the silver lab topic instead of charcoal. It's been known to get a little heated. From what I remember, most folks around here aren't particularly fond of the idea. Seems most of the folks are upset at the breeders, not the dogs (we all love dogs). 

I can't remember how they came about, but some thoughts were chocolate and maybe Weimaraner????? I'm not too sure.


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## Pudelpointer (Jul 27, 2010)

DeLancy, I would love to see some pictures of your Silver Lab, I have been out of the retriever game for about 15 years and have never heard of anything but black, yellow and chocolate. Very interesting!


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

There are three colors in the lab breed. Yellow, chocolate and black.

If the dog is chocolate and has a double dilute gene, it will be "silver". They are still registered as chocolate.

If the dog is black and has a double dilute gene, it will be charcoal. They are still registered as black.

The "questionability" is whether the dilute gene was in the Lab breed at the "origin" of the lab breed. 

Unfortunately, as 2Tall says, most people breediing for the dilute genes are doing extensive INBREEDING and not doing any health clearances nor are they doing any sort of preformance testing. If you are only breeding for one thing, the end result is not gonna be good.

WRL


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Hey I said that too...lol


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> Hey I said that too...lol


Yep you did. Here's your Brownie button....;o)

WRL


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## Adam DeLancey (Feb 18, 2011)

Pudelpointer said:


> DeLancy, I would love to see some pictures of your Silver Lab, I have been out of the retriever game for about 15 years and have never heard of anything but black, yellow and chocolate. Very interesting!


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75757&highlight=delancey&page=5
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## Pudelpointer (Jul 27, 2010)

Very cool looking dog, thanks for sharing!


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Here is a pic of my co-workers "silver lab" Nahla.. I had told her that she probably would be a dud when it came to retrieving and all that.. Surprisingly,this pup LOVES birds and is a retrieving machine.. Her pedigree shows ALL silvers and NO health clearances at all.. Will be kinda humorous to see her run in Alaska next summer if her owner sticks with it.


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

I guess they are here to stay. Someone somewhere is having a good laugh on us. Still a Weim will always be a Weim. I dont care Three colors Black Yellow and Chocolate.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Not giving my opinion of silver or charcoal "Labs", but Mary, that pose of Spanky & Darla is wonderful, they sure look like mother/daughter there. Great photo.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I could of sworn an RTFer with a silver lab stated they were going to do a DNA test just to prove the dog was a lab...we never heard the results...

FOM


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

When breeding only for color in a very small breeding pool, things wil be missed, overlooked, and the result can be a unhealthy dog.


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## agengo02 (Nov 3, 2009)

I have a half lab, half weim and mine, nor any of the puppies from his litter, look anything like the silver or charcoal labs. And ALL had the single, weim coat.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

agengo02 said:


> I have a half lab, half weim and mine, nor any of the puppies from his litter, look anything like the silver or charcoal labs. And ALL had the single, weim coat.


You have to double up on the dilute gene. MOST LABS don't have the dilute gene. So without a double dilute gene, a Weim/Lab cross is gonna be all black dogs (unless the lab was chocolate or chocolate factored). 

Also, coats vary. I have some labs with great coats and some without great coats.

WRL


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

Ok wow,

I love the Silver Color. If i did not just buy a Black lab Female I would have gotten a Silver. They are so cute. do you guys know if there is a Silver MH or SH out there???


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Look at this web site that I found listed locally.
Tan Pt. puppy??????
http://whitestarlabs.com/6.html
Please explain??
Thanks!
Sue


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## Adam DeLancey (Feb 18, 2011)

DEDEYE said:


> Here is a pic of my co-workers "silver lab" Nahla.. I had told her that she probably would be a dud when it came to retrieving and all that.. Surprisingly,this pup LOVES birds and is a retrieving machine.. Her pedigree shows ALL silvers and NO health clearances at all.. Will be kinda humorous to see her run in Alaska next summer if her owner sticks with it.


My silver is clear of every thing, hips good, eyes good, CNM clear, EIC clear.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

There are all kinds of "mismarks" supposedly occurring in labs. In fact they are used to argue why "tri" and "lemon" MIGHT occur naturally in GSP's. I have no useful knowledge to add, but lots to gain. This is one topic I will pull up a chair, and cup of coffee, and watch to see what is said. 

I will point out this website that I am sure many out there know. I have seen it referenced elswhere...
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Look at this web site that I found listed locally.
> Tan Pt. puppy??????
> http://whitestarlabs.com/6.html
> Please explain??
> ...


Adopted a "Setter mix" from the shelter when I volunteered down there. He was 8 months old at the time. Took him to the vet and he confirmed what I thought. He was a lab. Looked just like these pups' color. Looked nothing like a setter, all lab.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> Adopted a "Setter mix" from the shelter when I volunteered down there. He was 8 months old at the time. Took him to the vet and he confirmed what I thought. He was a lab. Looked just like these pups' color. Looked nothing like a setter, all lab.


Unfortunately Steph, you can't "confirm" anything by just looking at a dog.

You could now run a DNA test to see what make-up there might be (who knows what a "purebred lab" comes back as) but lots of dogs don't LOOK like what they are.

WRL


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

DNA will likely show 100% Labrador in any dog where the weim was introduced far enough back in the pedigree, so that really isn't "proof" either. I don't know how much I trust those tests anyhow- being in the veterinary field, I have seen a dog who looked like a purebred rottie (and well-bred at that) that someone adopted from the shelter test as a whippet-husky mix.



DeLancey said:


> My silver is clear of every thing, hips good, eyes good, CNM clear, EIC clear.


Elbows? 

Without elbow clearances to add, that list would be meaningless to me. Especially after having had a lab with bilateral elbow dysplasia.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

DeLancey said:


> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75757&highlight=delancey&page=5
> [URL="http://
> 
> 
> ...


Nice dog, funny looking tail...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

1st retriever said:


> . . . Took him to the vet and he confirmed what I thought. He was a lab. . . .





WRL said:


> Unfortunately Steph, you can't "confirm" anything by just looking . . .
> WRL


I don't know about that. 
When I was confirmed the Monsignor just looked at me...... 
Shook his head. Handed me a new Rosary and asked "Did you go shopping with your Dad?" 
Little did I know, when I told him. That all the other kids did not go Garage salein' all weekend for their confirmation suits.
　
.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

WRL said:


> Unfortunately Steph, you can't "confirm" anything by just looking at a dog.
> 
> You could now run a DNA test to see what make-up there might be (who knows what a "purebred lab" comes back as) but lots of dogs don't LOOK like what they are.
> 
> WRL


Sorry I should have explained. He "figured" it wasn't a setter and that it was a lab. He used to raise labs so I went with what he said since that is what I thought he was. Anyway he looked exactly like the tan point chocolates on that site.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I would really like to hear from the original poster, Afairchild, I think? Anyway, if you already have a pup, please don't be discouraged by this thread. You have what you have and it is up to you to make the very most of it. Good luck and have fun!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ya know, for real Carol you are exactly right. It's going to be a great little pup. It's going to be your pup. It wont even know what color it is. Now for example look at that little cutie in Mary's post in this thread. How can you think that is anything but adorable? So..Don’t be angry, don’t be sad, and don’t sit cryin’ over good times you’ve had. There’s a puppy right next to you, and she’s just waitin’ for something to do...
　
.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

The Tan Points have all their health clearances, look at the bottom of their website.

Not everyone is looking for the next NFC, to each their own.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Gavin,
NOT saying that everyone is looking for the next NFC.
But "Tan Pt. Labs.?"
My question is for the folks that are the experts(breeders) How DOES this happen??
I looked at OFA web site. I couldn't find squat on the male.
Sue


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I couldn't even find "Kids" registered name, so you are doing better than me. I have no earthly idea how it happens.

I didn't know there was any other color than black....


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> I couldn't even find "Kids" registered name, so you are doing better than me. I have no earthly idea how it happens.
> 
> I didn't know there was any other color than black....


Oldest scam in the book when it comes to dogs....just list some number and its unlikely many will check to see if its a good number or belongs to THAT dog.

WRL


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## Adam DeLancey (Feb 18, 2011)

Montview said:


> DNA will likely show 100% Labrador in any dog where the weim was introduced far enough back in the pedigree, so that really isn't "proof" either. I don't know how much I trust those tests anyhow- being in the veterinary field, I have seen a dog who looked like a purebred rottie (and well-bred at that) that someone adopted from the shelter test as a whippet-husky mix.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


His Elbows are good as well. I will try and scan his paper work when I get home.


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## Ed Hogan (Mar 14, 2007)

DEDEYE said:


> Here is a pic of my co-workers "silver lab" Nahla.. I had told her that she probably would be a dud when it came to retrieving and all that.. Surprisingly,this pup LOVES birds and is a retrieving machine.. Her pedigree shows ALL silvers and NO health clearances at all.. Will be kinda humorous to see her run in Alaska next summer if her owner sticks with it.


I'm confused How does the ped. show all silvers when the AKC only lists the top three (b,y,c) as options?


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## Adam DeLancey (Feb 18, 2011)

Sunrise Kennels said:


> I'm confused How does the ped. show all silvers when the AKC only lists the top three (b,y,c) as options?


I think what some people do is list the words silver or charcoal in the parents names on the paper work. Thats what was ment by it shows all silver.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Bring on the silvers...maybe chocolates will get a break


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## agengo02 (Nov 3, 2009)

WRL said:


> You have to double up on the dilute gene. MOST LABS don't have the dilute gene. So without a double dilute gene, a Weim/Lab cross is gonna be all black dogs (unless the lab was chocolate or chocolate factored).
> 
> Also, coats vary. I have some labs with great coats and some without great coats.
> 
> WRL


The dad was a black lab and the mom was the normal silver weim (a big girl at that). Actually he had 6 pups left when we got there and we took 2. 4 males (all solid black) and 2 females (both light brown with a white chest patch).

They all had the single weim coat. 

Don't know if this adds anything or not, just wanting to continue an interesting conversation.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Whenever I have a question about coat color in the Lab I always go to this site, explains all the different genes involved and the possibilities of all the oddities. Including Silvers, Fox Red, and labs with Brown points. A little technical but It's a Wonderful world of color.

http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm


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## Andrew Fairchild (May 19, 2011)

Thanks for the post. Lexi is Black but one litter mate was silver. They've never had a silver lab before in any of their litters so I was just wondering what everyone was thinking about silver labs. My main concern was some bad breeding habits. Lexi is not registered, her sire is not registered. He's about a 60lb. black lab that has more drive for birds than any dog I've ever worked. The mom is registered and good size. This is her 3rd litter. She also has an amazing drive for birds. They work both the sire and dam when she's not got pups inside her. Lexi comes home in 11 days!!!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Have a great time with Lexi! The color and fancy papers don't mean a thing if the pup is healthy and does what YOU want to do. Post a pic when he comes home.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

afairchild0103 said:


> Thanks for the post. Lexi is Black but one litter mate was silver. They've never had a silver lab before in any of their litters so I was just wondering what everyone was thinking about silver labs. My main concern was some bad breeding habits. Lexi is not registered, her sire is not registered. He's about a 60lb. black lab that has more drive for birds than any dog I've ever worked. The mom is registered and good size. This is her 3rd litter. She also has an amazing drive for birds. They work both the sire and dam when she's not got pups inside her. Lexi comes home in 11 days!!!


Sorry, but with silver in the litter, you're guaranteed bad breeding habits. Sure it could be the worlds best pet, but if you're handing over your hard earned money, you should be trying to support a breeder doing it "right".


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

Somewhere on the Labrador Retriever Club of America website, it addresses the Tan-point lab (I've only known them as miss marked Labs). I'm not certain but I think it says they can only receive a limited registration and offspring cannot be registered.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

kcrumpy9 said:


> Somewhere on the Labrador Retriever Club of America website, it addresses the Tan-point lab (I've only known them as miss marked Labs). I'm not certain but I think it says they can only receive a limited registration and offspring cannot be registered.


I am pretty sure that is not true....

I had a Best In Specialty Show winning bitch (99 RDLRC) ( who was also best of winners at the 98 National in St Louis) that produced splashed/tan pts in three litters with three different CH stud dogs, that had three different pedigrees.....
My guess is it is not a simple recessive. but could not tell you how it is inherited


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

I apologize it is a disqualification. Thanks for the correction Bridget


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

So it's there.
So should people be breeding for it.??
Sue


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Sue Kiefer said:


> So it's there.
> So should people be breeding for it.??
> Sue




That's the problem with both the tan point and the dilution gene that produces silver and charcoal. Everyone keeps wants to know if those color genes were ever in the breed when it was originally formed. You could easily make a case either way because other breeds were introduced in the early days of Lab history and some of those do carry those colors. At this point, who cares? Responsible breeders sought to eliminate both colors and 10 or 15 years ago they were non-existent. Tan points and dilutes were culled because the LRC only recognizes 3 colors: black, yellow & chocolate. Now these genes are being resurrected either by fraudulent registration of mutts as Labs or by finding dogs that carry it and heavily inbreeding. Whether it was the former or the latter probably will remain a mystery but the dilutes are definitely occurring with greater regularity now. The real question is: Will the LRC ever recognize those colors as acceptable?


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

WRL said:


> There are three colors in the lab breed. Yellow, chocolate and black.
> 
> If the dog is chocolate and has a double dilute gene, it will be "silver". They are still registered as chocolate.
> 
> ...


You can say that again.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

There is a HUGE difference between the occasional black and tan point puppy that occurs in a well bred litter and breeding for dilute colors. Black and tan supposedly came from a cross to gordan setter before the stud book was closed. If/when it occurs in a litter, the breeder (hopefully) places that puppy on limited registration and rethinks breeding those two dogs again, at least to eachother...this goes with any mismark. They're not deliberately bred for. The dilute gene was introduced AFTER the stud book was closed, and the vast majority of dilute breeders won't admit it happened and they purposely breed for it, leading their ignorant buyers to believe its a naturally occurring color of Labrador that the rest of us are hiding in our litters.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Nicole said:


> There is a HUGE difference between the occasional black and tan point puppy that occurs in a well bred litter and breeding for dilute colors. Black and tan supposedly came from a cross to gordan setter before the stud book was closed. If/when it occurs in a litter, the breeder (hopefully) places that puppy on limited registration and rethinks breeding those two dogs again, at least to eachother...this goes with any mismark. They're not deliberately bred for. The dilute gene was introduced AFTER the stud book was closed, and the vast majority of dilute breeders won't admit it happened and they purposely breed for it, leading their ignorant buyers to believe its a naturally occurring color of Labrador that the rest of us are hiding in our litters.


Well said. I had a goofy "setter mismark" so termed by a Labrador historian I sent the picture to. It came out from 2 yellows that and was present in a darker yellow so it showed up more. In a lighter yellow it would have looked blended. The puppy was actually sold with no papers as a pet and I didn't breed those two together again.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Nicole said:


> The dilute gene was introduced AFTER the stud book was closed


Evidence?

You do realize, don't you, that it's logically impossible to prove its absence in early Labradors? And that it is present in the closely-related Newfoundland?

When were the stud books closed, anyway?

Amy Dahl


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

The stud book is closed when the breed is fully recognized by the kennel club. 

It's very logical to conclude that the color does not naturally occur in our breed by simply looking at the world population. While mismarks occur all over the world, dilutes only popped up here in the states. Unfortunately people have now exported breeding stock, but it's all traceable back to the states.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

Yes Newfoundlands do have dilutes. They also have longer, double coats, massive heads, heavy bone, tight feet, etc... Weims are dominant for dilute colors (homozygous recessive if you want to be technical) and have short, single coats, houndy ears, lighter bone, different feet, narrow muzzles, etc... Which do you think these dilute labradors have closer in their pedigrees???


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Nicole said:


> The stud book is closed when the breed is fully recognized by the kennel club.
> 
> IWhile mismarks occur all over the world, dilutes only popped up here in the states.


Incorrect. Helen Warwick documents at least one case in the UK, in Scotland in 1932.

Amy Dahl


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Nicole said:


> Yes Newfoundlands do have dilutes. They also have longer, double coats, massive heads, heavy bone, tight feet, etc... Weims are dominant for dilute colors (homozygous recessive if you want to be technical) and have short, single coats, houndy ears, lighter bone, different feet, narrow muzzles, etc... Which do you think these dilute labradors have closer in their pedigrees???


According to a researcher with the canine genome project with whom I spoke (Dr. Mark Neff), the appearance of "silvers" communicated to him by breeders, and the pedigrees involved, indicate that the dilute gene entered the breed a very long time ago. He said, "you would be surprised to learn where it's cropping up."

In those many intervening generations, of course, the color allele would be passed on independent of other physical traits.

Amy Dahl


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

afdahl said:


> According to a researcher with the canine genome project with whom I spoke (Dr. Mark Neff), the appearance of "silvers" communicated to him by breeders, and the pedigrees involved, indicate that the dilute gene entered the breed a very long time ago. He said, "you would be surprised to learn where it's cropping up."
> 
> In those many intervening generations, of course, the color allele would be passed on independent of other physical traits.
> 
> Amy Dahl


At this point, does it really matter whether the dilution gene was there or if it was fraudulently introduced via registering mutts as Labs? It's not possible to prove either scenario. There's ample evidence several different breeds were used to add traits to the Labrador breed in its infancy: Newfoundlands, Gordon Setters and Norwegian Elkhounds come to mind. And yes, some of those carried the dilution gene. However, the salient fact is this: the dilute colors, like the curly tails of Norwegian Elkhounds and the feathering of setters, were undesirable traits that were culled when they appeared. Though no one "buckets" puppies any more, breeders did use to place said puppies in pet homes on non-breeding contracts. So now we have dilutes being bred for specifically and appearing with increasing regularity because someone was clever enough to market them as "special" instead of "not acceptable" and now there's a clamor for the dilutes to be recognized. What's next....will someone start marketing Labs with tails curled up over their backs like Cheerios, or long, silken feathering on the ears, legs and tail, and it will be OK because some Labs used to have those traits?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> At this point, does it really matter whether the dilution gene was there or if it was fraudulently introduced via registering mutts as Labs? It's not possible to prove either scenario. There's ample evidence several different breeds were used to add traits to the Labrador breed in its infancy: Newfoundlands, Gordon Setters and Norwegian Elkhounds come to mind. And yes, some of those carried the dilution gene. However, the salient fact is this: the dilute colors, like the curly tails of Norwegian Elkhounds and the feathering of setters, were undesirable traits that were culled when they appeared. Though no one "buckets" puppies any more, breeders did use to place said puppies in pet homes on non-breeding contracts. So now we have dilutes being bred for specifically and appearing with increasing regularity because someone was clever enough to market them as "special" instead of "not acceptable" and now there's a clamor for the dilutes to be recognized. What's next....will someone start marketing Labs with tails curled up over their backs like Cheerios, or long, silken feathering on the ears, legs and tail, and it will be OK because some Labs used to have those traits?


I agree with you Julie.....BUT, the Labrador breed is SPLIT.....if the dilute gene was there from the beginning of time and is not acceptable within the standard, where does the policing end? The field people are NOT breeding to the "standard" (which is not really the original standard anyway) so what about dogs that have "other" disqualifying characteristics....too small, lack of an otter tail, single coats etc.

WRL


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Julie R. said:


> It's not possible to prove either scenario.


I agree with this. I'm not confident no one buckets puppies any more, especially given what Dr. Neff said.

Why argue? On a thread that's gone on this long, which is the nth repeat of the same question, I don't feel compelled to stick to the OP's question. On the other hand, stuff that's stated as fact, if it goes unchallenged, can take on a life of its own. And sometimes, I get really motivated to encourage people to be more skeptical. 

Sure, it's impossible to prove that no one has ever crossed a Weim with a Lab and marketed the puppies as "special." Just think: if they knew enough about genetics to use a chocolate, then in the second generation they could get 25% silvers, while producing 1.75 litters of brown mutts. What a payoff!

Just as it's impossible to prove that the dilute gene hasn't been in the breed since its origins.

I don't see any reason we can't apply logic on a subject like this.

Amy Dahl


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## Andrew Fairchild (May 19, 2011)

I didn't know this thread was going to get everyones blood pumping when I started it. I now realize there is no set answer on this topic, some believe this, and others believe that. My main concern was getting a pup from a litter and finding out it wasn't full blood or it might have problems even though the sire, dam, my pup, and all the other pups look legit. I'm not necessarily a believer in buying a pup with a hunting (working) bloodline. The first pup we trained came out of our own accidental litter when I was still a pup myself. The next pup me and my dad trained was 6 months old when we got it. We got it with no papers for $100 out of the paper. It's time for me to have a dog of my own. Both dogs have been great companions as well as hunting buddies, I don't see why I need to empty my already empty wallet for a dog. Has anyone ever worked a silver or charcoal lab? What's their drive like? Just curious. I pick up Lexi in 10 days!!!


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

WRL said:


> I agree with you Julie.....BUT, the Labrador breed is SPLIT.....if the dilute gene was there from the beginning of time and is not acceptable within the standard, where does the policing end? The field people are NOT breeding to the "standard" (which is not really the original standard anyway) so what about dogs that have "other" disqualifying characteristics....too small, lack of an otter tail, single coats etc.
> 
> WRL


Back in the infancy of the Labrador (or any breed really) people bred for an ideal and to get it they added other breeds to get the traits they wanted. Obviously this also meant breeding out those other breeds' traits they didn't want--including the dilution gene. If you go back to the early ancestors, you'd find a lot of stuff in the crosses that were added that you'd think no one would want in a Lab. I wouldn't think anyone would want a long silky coat or a curly tail, but it would not surprise me at all if some shyster who decides the dilute colored Labs aren't profitable enough starts marketing curly tails or feathering or white feet (didn't the St. Johns dog have those?) Chesapeakes occasionally throw a long-coated version which is also the result of an undesirable recessive gene. It's sufficiently rare that so far it hasn't become a problem; however responsible breeders would never breed the long haired dog itself and they'd exercise caution breeding dogs known to have produced it. But then again, some people don't care about genes breeders have tried to breed out for generations, breed dogs known to carry them and brag about it. I had a pup born earlier this year with excessive white including a white foot. He's a great looking pup and everyone wanted him and in fact I probably could've sold him for more money because he was "unusual". But I sold him to a local family on a non-breeding contract.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

WRL said:


> I agree with you Julie.....BUT, the Labrador breed is SPLIT.....if the dilute gene was there from the beginning of time and is not acceptable within the standard, where does the policing end? The field people are NOT breeding to the "standard" (which is not really the original standard anyway) so what about dogs that have "other" disqualifying characteristics....too small, lack of an otter tail, single coats etc.
> 
> WRL


Color is a lot more definitive than other descriptors such as "substance without lumber or cloddiness," "moderate," and my favorite, "dogs shall be shown in working condition, well-muscled and without excess fat."

Amy Dahl


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

afairchild0103 said:


> Has anyone ever worked a silver or charcoal lab? What's their drive like? Just curious. I pick up Lexi in 10 days!!!


Their drive has nothing to do with their color and everything to do with what they inherited from the parents. While most silver and charcoal Labs are bred solely for color and not prey drive and trainability, it sounds like the person you're getting your pup from did in fact seek to produce hunting dogs first and the odd colored pups just happened. So chances are pretty good your pup as well as the others in the litter regardless of color, will do just fine. My sister has a silver Lab that she rescued 10 years ago when it was a pup and hers definitely looks like it's a Weimeraner/Lab cross. The dog has no interest in retrieving; in fact she really doesn't even like to swim. But my sister doesn't hunt and the dog is a good pet which is what she got it for.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> The field people are NOT breeding to the "standard" (which is not really the original standard anyway) so what about dogs that have "other" disqualifying characteristics....too small, lack of an otter tail, single coats etc.


Can't disagree, it's totally right. I'm mostly interested in having a competitive retriever.



> "substance without lumber or cloddiness," "moderate," and my favorite, "dogs shall be shown in working condition, well-muscled and without excess fat."


Looks like the show people aren't paying attention to the breed standard either.  :lol:


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Howard N said:


> Can't disagree, it's totally right. I'm mostly interested in having a competitive retriever.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the show people aren't paying attention to the breed standard either.  :lol:


Way to go, Howard, change the discussion to show vs field Labs! :razz:


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

In my experience with other breeds, the dilute gene is associated with deafness and blindness, double dilutes are almost always deaf and eventually go blind. Not something you'd want in the population if it could be avoided. Does anyone know if this is this the case with the Lab dilute gene? If not leads me to suspect the coloration is coming from somewhere else


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> In my experience with other breeds, the dilute gene is associated with deafness and blindness, double dilutes are almost always deaf and eventually go blind. Not something you'd want in the population if it could be avoided. Does anyone know if this is this the case with the Lab dilute gene? If not leads me to suspect the coloration is coming from somewhere else


That would be "Double Merle," a different gene altogether. Thank goodness we don't have that in Labs!

Here is probably the most in-depth and well researched site regarding the dilution gene in Labradors and the surrounding controversy. http://www.phantomlabradors.com/controversy.html 
There are some pretty interesting pictures of dilute hairs on the "Dilution" page that are worth a look as well.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Nicole said:


> There is a HUGE difference between the occasional black and tan point puppy that occurs in a well bred litter and breeding for dilute colors. Black and tan supposedly came from a cross to gordan setter before the stud book was closed. If/when it occurs in a litter, the breeder (hopefully) places that puppy on limited registration and rethinks breeding those two dogs again, at least to eachother...this goes with any mismark. They're not deliberately bred for. The dilute gene was introduced AFTER the stud book was closed, and the vast majority of dilute breeders won't admit it happened and they purposely breed for it, leading their ignorant buyers to believe its a naturally occurring color of Labrador that the rest of us are hiding in our litters.


Like many of you, I don't want to beat this dead Silver horse over and over again. But it is important to try to ascertain, as nearly as possible, the almost truth so I'll throw some stuff on the pyre. The dilute gene in Labradors could have come from so many different sources, in part because up until 1935 Labradors and other retriever breeds could be routinely interbred in England and also cross-bred with non-retriever breeds and be registered as Labrador Retrievers, or Golden Retrievers, or Curly-Coated Retrievers, etc., etc., etc.

The dilute gene was not, necessarily, introduced after the stud book was closed. Jeepers, go look up my thread about a successful British field trial Golden in the 1930's: it was a grandchild of a Labrador/Golden cross.

In the early 1800's a "retriever" was not a breed of dog. The word "retriever" described what a particular dog--be it what we now days call a Border Collie or an Airedale Terrier or a Tweed Water Spaniel--DID. It was not until the advent of conformation shows (approximately 1855) that folks began trying to maintain the separate retriever varieties. And in the beginning, the two recognized retrievers--the wavy and curly coateds--competed in the same classes at many of the shows because they were often cousins.

J. Marti


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

Health is my biggest concern with these dilute colors. Of the 3 "silvers" I have personally treated, 2 had terrible allergies and severe skin diseases and the third had joint disease diagnosed after it ended up with juvenile cataracts. Doesn't surprise me at all after knowing about some serious health problems associated with "blue" colored dobies or pitts, or heck, even blue mink. Lots of immune system problems and various other issues.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> Like many of you, I don't want to beat this dead Silver horse over and over again. But it is important to try to ascertain, as nearly as possible, the almost truth


 
Ahem...so you don't want to beat a dead horse, but maybe you want to tazer it or shoot it? The only "fact" in the discussion about where the dilute gene came from is that we'll never know. Clearly, it had to be in the breed originally. Many in the know will swear there were crosses fraudulently registered in the 1980s. But 30 years have passed so it's higly unlikely anyone could definitively prove it.



> The dilute gene was not, necessarily, introduced after the stud book was closed. Jeepers, go look up my thread about a successful British field trial Golden in the 1930's: it was a grandchild of a Labrador/Golden cross.


Somewhere on a website someone has copies of British pedigrees where Chesapeakes were crossed with Labs and the resulting offspring registered as Labs as recently as the 1960s (Jeepers go look it up if you think it will give more ooomph to the beatings!) Chesapeakes definitely have the dilute gene, look at my avatar. 

Just because a gene for a particular trait crops out from time to time in purebreds does not mean that trait should automatically be accepted into a breed standard. It's up to the keepers of that standard to decide if that trait should be acceptable or not. If the breed club decides they do not want that trait it's considered a disqualifying fault and breeders cull those that have it. Which is relatively easy to do if it's a dominant trait, such as black coat color (here I am referring to Chesapeakes, which do not come in black and the color never appears in purebreds). Not so easy if it's a recesssive trait as that can lurk without expression for generations.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

There are some serious health issues that Silver Labs are prone to, yet those issues are no different than what every other BYC Lab could face, allergies, thyroid, eyes, joints, etc, etc. The reason this is of a more serious concern with silvers is that most breeders are only in it for the money and breed for the color; the sad truth. Their dogs are usually closely inbred/linebred and little decision making goes into breedings beyond what color puppies they will produce. Who cares about pedigrees, clearances, etc... 
Sure there are a few breeders that do try to improve the silver lines by breeding to better BYC dogs; if one were to get a Silver Lab, they would be better off finding breeders like that.

Some silver haters claim that many silver Labs have Color Dilution Alopecia problems, but that is a biased fallacy. Sure there could be a couple that have it, but every one that I have heard of and looked into that had hair loss has had the hair fully regrow when treated for allergies, thyroid, or other infections. CDA affected will not regrow hair, the condition is chronic. The health issues with Silvers are not dilution gene associated, but are due to breeder decisions to not screen for the plethora of issues that can affect any Lab.

For accepting any trait as part of a breed standard, recessive or otherwise, one would have to look first at the question, does the trait alone harm the purpose of the breed? If "no," then the next question is does that trait in some way accentuate the purpose of the breed? If "yes," then it would seem to be an advantageous trait for the breed. For silver, I know I've read several chessie owners here on RTF claim that they have the best possible all terrain solid camouflage with gray as compared to brown and yellow shades. Seems that gray shades would accentuate the ability of a Lab to blend with its surroundings better than BYC Labs in most situations as well. 
Really though, we all know it is all politics when it comes to the LRC breed standard, regardless of the dog or its actual purpose...how many splits are there in this breed?


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> Ahem...so you don't want to beat a dead horse, but maybe you want to tazer it or shoot it? The only "fact" in the discussion about where the dilute gene came from is that we'll never know. Clearly, it had to be in the breed originally. Many in the know will swear there were crosses fraudulently registered in the 1980s. But 30 years have passed so it's higly unlikely anyone could definitively prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm thinking you and I agree on this stuff. There is no whole truth--just a bunch of stuff from which we can't possibly unearth the truth but can use to try to get closer to something to support our opinions

J. Marti


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Well, from the vet side of things there is a condition called Color Dilute Alopecia that affects Labs with the dilute gene. Been proven many times by biopsy. It is a life long condition that has no cure. Basically the dog ends up with no hair along its sides, prone to staph infections and usually comes with horrible allergies as well.

Even if a silver Lab ended up NFC, for above reason, I would never breed to it. Labradors have to pick up ducks and geese in cold weather. Why would you want the chance of getting a dog that has no coat? 

I really don't understand the fascination with silver Labs.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

wheelhorse said:


> Well, from the vet side of things there is a condition called Color Dilute Alopecia that affects Labs with the dilute gene. Been proven many times by biopsy. It is a life long condition that has no cure. Basically the dog ends up with no hair along its sides, prone to staph infections and usually comes with horrible allergies as well.
> 
> Even if a silver Lab ended up NFC, for above reason, I would never breed to it. Labradors have to pick up ducks and geese in cold weather. Why would you want the chance of getting a dog that has no coat?
> 
> I really don't understand the fascination with silver Labs.


Well said


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

wheelhorse said:


> Well, from the vet side of things there is a condition called Color Dilute Alopecia that affects Labs with the dilute gene. Been proven many times by biopsy. It is a life long condition that has no cure. Basically the dog ends up with no hair along its sides, prone to staph infections and usually comes with horrible allergies as well.
> 
> Even if a silver Lab ended up NFC, for above reason, I would never breed to it. Labradors have to pick up ducks and geese in cold weather. Why would you want the chance of getting a dog that has no coat?
> 
> I really don't understand the fascination with silver Labs.


I just addressed the CDA "claims" in my last post. I would love to see the "proven" confirmed CDA in dilute Labs, I really would. Perhaps a Vet with the biopsy results or the Dog owner with the hairless Lab? Please feel free to PM as I know most people don't want to share contact info that the public can view. 
I admittedly am a sceptic though as this is the usual way I have learned of suposed cases and then looked deeper into them (online claims). Each one had one fo two outcomes: 
1-The person claiming CDA refused to produced their source. 
2-The Lab in question regrew hair after treatment for other issues (therefor not CDA).

Like I said before, the way many silver breeders act in neglecting pedigree, clearances, titles, etc is a travesty. But I really don't understand the fascination with hating a dog because of color.

If a Silver ended up with a NFC, for that reason, I would get in line to breed to it.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

FOM said:


> I could of sworn an RTFer with a silver lab stated they were going to do a DNA test just to prove the dog was a lab...we never heard the results...
> 
> FOM


That's right! Who was that?


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Sunrise Kennels said:


> I'm confused How does the ped. show all silvers when the AKC only lists the top three (b,y,c) as options?


Just the names.. Silver this and that.. And the breeder told my friend all dogs were silvers in the pedigree.. Also, the breeder told her that the reason she didn't do the hips, or any other clearances, was because both dogs were too young.. Hmmmm... So basically she bred pups to make some pups...


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

FOM said:


> I could of sworn an RTFer with a silver lab stated they were going to do a DNA test just to prove the dog was a lab...we never heard the results...
> 
> FOM


I volunteered in response to this old thread. Got the answer that the DNA test was worthless after saying I would be happy to send it in. I would still volunteer, but since Thor has been dead now for 2 years, you'll have to ask for someone else. 

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39324


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