# AKC Response to MH test limits & entry issues



## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

A friend wrote to AKC for information and received these reponses with permission to pass along the info. This is just a very long cut 'n paste. There was also an attachment listing all the Committee Reps. I tried to copy & paste, but it messed up. So I'll put that in a separate post.
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Please forgive my tardy response; I ran into a little medical incident on March 16 and am just now catching up on ‘lots of mails’ and I appreciate your patience. As usual, Mr. Mann has done an excellent job of responding to some of your inquiries.

By copy of this mailing, I’m copying each member of the committee and your submission will be discussed. A current roster of the committee is attached; feel free to communicate w/any of us. My response is in your text in _italicized red_:


Have a great day!


Bill T. Teague, Chairman
Retriever Hunting Test Advisory Committee
American Kennel Club
734 CR 630
Nacogdoches, TX 75964
713-252-3918


*From:* 
*Sent:* Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:54 PM
*To:* Jerry Mann; [email protected]
*Cc:* Julie Dean
*Subject:* Re: Customer inquiry: Master Hunt Test Entries

Thank you for your response. I've only been in the Hunt Test Venue for about 6 years. I was told that entries were limited previously but it did not work out. I don't know if this is true or not.
_I’m not aware of any previous opportunity to limit entries in a retriever hunting test. If any of the committee members or AKC reps receiving this mailing knows of any, please let us know. Entries can be limited in other AKC events such as agility tests._

You are right, more and more clubs are limiting the Master entries whether it be for financial reasons, manpower or lack of grounds. I also think Master numbers have increased because of trying to qualifying for the Master Nationals. 




There are two issues you did not address. Opening dates/times and entering multiple dogs. I know that for the Golden Nationals this year the Master filled in 1/2 a day for the limit of 90 dogs. I think that is terrific. But there were some disappointed people. The difference with this Master is that the Opening date and time was announced and people were prepared to enter. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Field Trials and Hunt Tests are the only AKC venues that do not publicize an opening date/time.
_I’m not sure if FT’s & HT’s are the only venues not publicizing an opening date/time; if they are, someone needs to let us know. the suggestion that all HT clubs publish opening date & time at least 10-14 days before it opens has been submitted and is under discussion by the committee._

The only people that know when the Hunt Tests are open are the Club Members and their friends. Also pros and amateur handlers enter multiple dogs with just one click on Entry Express. I heard that in some parts of the country pros enter 10 or more dogs. I know this is their business but it really affects the people training and handling their own dogs because we love to do what out dogs were bred for. Is it possible for Entry Express to also list opening dates/times on the premiums?

_This possibility will be discussed w/EE as the committee progresses thru the discussion. _

Can anything be done to limit the number of entries per handler? 
_This suggestion has been submitted and is under discussion as well._



If there is nothing to be done about limiting entries maybe the entry method should be random draw with an earlier closing date. 



If you don't object, I would like to forward these emails to people I know that are also having problems entering Master Hunt Tests. 
_Please feel free to share this info w/others and if they have suggestions, encourage them to submit them to either their time zone committee rep or me; our plan is to have all submissions discussed by the committee._


_When the committee has completed it’s work, I’ll send you a report on the discussion. In the interim, if you have questions or other suggestions, please let me know._


_Thanks for your interest and good luck w/your dogs._

_Best regards,_
_Bill_


Again, thank you for your time.



*From:* Jerry Mann <[email protected]>
*To:* 
*Cc:* Julie Dean <[email protected]> 
*Sent:* Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:56 PM
*Subject:* RE: Customer inquiry: Master Hunt Test Entries


In 2012 the Retriever Hunt Test Advisory Committee received a recommendation to review the issue of possibly allowing clubs to place a limit on the number of entries they have to accept in the Master level of testing. The reason for the request was that many clubs felt they had neither the manpower nor area to continue sponsoring Master test when the numbers were getting so outrageous! The Advisory Committee after much debate and club contact felt clubs should have the ability to control the number of dogs they would accept in Master test based on each clubs capacity to sponsor these events. With that in mind and by vote of the committee, they recommended to the AKC that clubs be allowed to limit entries at the Master level. From there, as you know the recommendation was reviewed and approved.

As far as what can be done to rectify the problem, I would recommend you contact the Retriever Advisory Committee with any recommendations you might have as this is already being done by numerous clubs around the country! The chairperson of that committee is Mr. Bill Teague, [email protected].

I hope this helps with you question and maybe Mr. Teague can explain what is currently being done!

Thanks,

Jerry D. Mann
Field Director
Sporting Breeds
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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I couldn't get that attachment to cut 'n paste. You should be able to find the regional reps on the AKC website?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

What the hell are the "Golden Nationals"???????


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## bakbay (May 20, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> I couldn't get that attachment to cut 'n paste. You should be able to find the regional reps on the AKC website?


 *The AKC Retriever Hunting Test Advisory Committee*​ *2014*​ ​ It is the responsibility of the RHT Advisory Committee to provide input to the AKC Performance Events Department with regard to the Retriever Hunting Test Regulations. This may involve clarification of existing Regulations or new Regulations that are felt to enhance the sport. Topics for Advisory Committee discussion may originate from RHT participants or from the Committee members themselves. The Performance Events Department may also direct ideas to the Committee for consideration.

The Performance Events Department values the input of the Advisory Committee but is under no obligation to agree or act upon their suggestions. The Department may also, on occasion, act without Committee input.

*Members of the Retriever Hunting Test Advisory Committee are:*

* Term Expires at end of:*
* Eastern Time Zone Representative*
Robert Rascoe [email protected] 2016
242 Fairfax Drive 336-765-9420 (H)
Winston-Salem, NC 27104

* Rocky Mountain Time Zone Representative*
Keith Winch [email protected]  2017
11892 Hitching Post Trail 303- 805-0555 (H)
Parker, CO 80134 303-748-1838 (C)

* Central Time Zone Representative*
Richard Pyka [email protected] 2014 
W 235 N 262-229-3031 (H)
9544 Mt. Vernon Dr.
Colgate, WI 53017

* Pacific Time Zone Representative*
Tom Quarles [email protected] 2015
12725 Jordan Road 360-691-2650 (off)
Arlington, WA 98223-9409 425-377-3793 (C)

* RHTAC Chairman*
Bill Teague [email protected]
734 CR 630 936-559-9007 (H)
Nacogdoches, TX 75964 713-252-3918 (C)


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> What the hell are the "Golden Nationals"???????


Actually, it is the GRCA Natl Specialty. Often it is called the "Golden National" ... there should NOT be an "s" on the end.

The GRCA Natl Spec usually last 8 to 10 days. There are many events: conformation, obedience, agility, field trial, WC/WCX, tracking test, and also some sweepstakes classes in conformation. The hunt test is not a requirement, but many of the clubs also include a hunt test in the events, In addition to those events, there are health clinics for checking eyes and hearts, as well as blood collection for an Optigen clinic, and also collection of DNA for research projects. There is a field welcome banquet, a field trial banquet, a conformation "gala" dinner by Golden Retriever Foundation. Also there is a judges' education seminar and often a breeders' seminar on health issues or some other relevant topic to the breed. You begin to understand why it lasts more than a week 

The event rotates through the regions of the country. This year it's in the Eastern region hosted by the SC club, but the events take place in SC, NC, and TN! Next year it will be in the Central region, hosted in the Cincinnati area. In 2016 it will be in the Western region, in CA. Then back to the Eastern region in 2017.

The field trial usually has 40-50 in each major stake. The Qualifying can be 60-100. Best of Breed in conformation is well over 100 dogs in the ring. The field trial is always on weekdays, so it usually means that field trial people can get in 3 field trials in one week's time (the mid-week Natl bracketed by all-breed trials on the weekend preceding the Natl & the weekend following the Natl)


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

So, it's a fluffy frootloop convention?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> So, it's a fluffy frootloop convention?


How about you not be so crusty...

FOM
RTF Moderator


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> So, it's a fluffy frootloop convention?


Go watch the field trial, and you might want to describe it differently


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> What the hell are the "Golden Nationals"???????


Jeez, I thought you knew something about the retriever game. :roll:

JS


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Yes, I got my hackles up with" coperdoc" but will not go there. Bite my tongue!


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## Golden6824 (Mar 28, 2010)

The Lab Club has their own version of their National Specialty, it is in Gettysburg this year


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> So, it's a fluffy frootloop convention?


Considering the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity". -_Unknown_​


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

FOM said:


> How about you not be so crusty...
> 
> FOM
> RTF Moderator


I must be weird. Myself, I got a chuckle out of being a proud member of the fluffy frootloops.


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> So, it's a fluffy frootloop convention?


Give me a break
Hope you NEVER get to judge Goldens
And no flames please 
JMOP


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

How can it be a golden speciality when I did not see a bandana wearing contest or a water avoidance course listed?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Golden6824 said:


> The Lab Club has their own version of their National Specialty, it is in Gettysburg this year


I thought the NRC was in Vicksburg this year? that is the all black lab event isnt it??


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Golden National sponsored by Pantene.:razz:


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Golden National sponsored by Pantene.:razz:



no way would those golden fans use grocery store shampoo!
now this would be my choice for a field event -


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## GoldenRun (Sep 25, 2009)

So no one is concerned about limited entries for Master Hunt tests? Especially the 60 dog limit? I know they are very hard to get unless you have a friend that tells you the opening date! Thanks for the post Gerry. Looks like the AKC is open to suggestions....


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> no way would those golden fans use grocery store shampoo!
> now this would be my choice for a field event -



i bet that helps to keep the water off the fur too


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Be nice guys those swamp collies do real nice on land w/hen pheasants.


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## GoldenRun (Sep 25, 2009)

I hope my post about the 60 dog limit didn't get lost in between the cans of Pam.....actually, Cowboy Magic works better on the Goldens burrs than Pam!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Well I say that everyone that commented on the previous threads with awesome suggestions send a email to the HT Advisory folks. Thanks for the update Sue!! 

I would use these to fix a fluffy problem!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Beverly Burns said:


> Yes, I got my hackles up with" coperdoc" but will not go there. Bite my tongue!


Me too. Maybe he can come to our next field trial and run test dog in the Open or Amateur. It might give him a greater appreciation.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

GoldenRun said:


> I hope my post about the 60 dog limit didn't get lost in between the cans of Pam.....actually, Cowboy Magic works better on the Goldens burrs than Pam!


I prefer Show Sheen but the results are the same. Pam just gets icky.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> Me too. Maybe he can come to our next field trial and run test dog in the Open or Amateur. It might give him a greater appreciation.


I highly doubt it.


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## Chuck Ward (Nov 28, 2012)

I like fluffy swamp collies.......  Had to take a break and go train. The Golden National opened and close before I even knew it was open. It is and will be very frustrating to unable to run Master Hunt Tests if they all fill so quickly. I've read with interest most of the threads posted about this and have concerns about being able enter Master tests. I have two dogs ready for Master, one for Senior and one for Junior. I won't be a happy camper if I can't get into Master.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

An opportunity for a legit discussion lost.


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## Fred Warf (Mar 7, 2005)

I hope copterdoc is not qualified to judge field trials but just in case if some one would pm me his name, I want to make sure I never run a trial he would judge.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Me too. Maybe he can come to our next field trial and run test dog in the Open or Amateur. It might give him a greater appreciation.


He would find the tests as dicey as anywhere, the judges nationally well-known, the competition fierce and THE PEOPLE GREAT!

He wouldn't fit in. ;-)

JS


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I would use these to fix a fluffy problem!
> View attachment 17978


Yeah, a banished rtf'ette use to shave hers in the summer


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## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

Have a sense of humor! copterdoc and gator have me laughing tonight. Just hope they don't start on my Chessies


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## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

you too, ken. keep it coming


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Fred Warf said:


> I hope copterdoc is not qualified to judge field trials but just in case if some one would pm me his name, I want to make sure I never run a trial he would judge.


Lighten up Francis. You gotta have a sense of humor to be a judge. Besides they ain't goin to be no fluffy's in the last series


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

tide pond said:


> Have a sense of humor! copterdoc and gator have me laughing tonight. Just hope they don't start on my Chessies


Anyone with a Golden HAS a sense of humor!! We've heard it all and can chuckle right along with it. Appreciate it, even.

Depends on where it comes from, though. Nobody likes Chopperdoc. ;-)

JS


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

wojo said:


> An opportunity for a legit discussion lost.


All GDG aside there are a lot of open MH out west and more finalizing soon. Take a vacation.


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## Fred Warf (Mar 7, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> Lighten up Francis. You gotta have a sense of humor to be a judge. Besides they ain't goin to be no fluffy's in the last series


You better check your statement with retriever results or entry express


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

JS said:


> Anyone with a Golden HAS a sense of humor!! We've heard it all and can chuckle right along with it. Appreciate it, even.
> JS


You got that right  Now we have a new one to add to the list ... swamp collies, rugs, fluffies, and now fluffy fruitloops.

However, copterdoc, if you ever are at a trial where a Golden should make the cut that your dog does not, Golden people are so fun-loving that you could end up in a pond  All in fun, of course.


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## GoldenRun (Sep 25, 2009)

I agree. The AKC wants feedback. Now is your chance to email them with concerns.
The original post had more interest.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Fred Warf said:


> I hope copterdoc is not qualified to judge field trials but just in case if some one would pm me his name, I want to make sure I never run a trial he would judge.


Heck with a PM somebody should publicly ID Mr "all hat and no cattle"


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Fred Warf said:


> I hope copterdoc is not qualified to judge field trials but just in case if some one would pm me his name, I want to make sure I never run a trial he would judge.


I believe he judges minor stakes as of last year. 

He's just trying to be funny. Don't let it get to you.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

With all the threads where people are agonizing over entry difficulties, I'd think this is a golden opportunity to make you wishes known. Oops, pun was NOT intended, just slipped in there! LOL


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

JDogger said:


> All GDG aside there are a lot of open MH out west and more finalizing soon. Take a vacation.


Ya got that right Hugh! With less than a week to closing, our hunt test has 23 master entries, 10 senior and 6 junior! (It's possible that's all the retrievers in NM, but hey, the Colorado folks come too. I'm headed back east for the summer. I guess then I'll see the problem first hand.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

2tall said:


> Ya got that right Hugh! With less than a week to closing, our hunt test has 23 master entries, 10 senior and 6 junior! (It's possible that's all the retrievers in NM, but hey, the Colorado folks come too. I'm headed back east for the summer. I guess then I'll see the problem first hand.


Plenty of open HTs here, Carol. Despite all the angst, only three on this circuit even filled so far--2 were 60 dog limits and one was an early double MH while the snowbirds were still around. Of course, with the MN in Cheraw next year, this fall is likely to be a different story.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

2tall said:


> Ya got that right Hugh! With less than a week to closing, our hunt test has 23 master entries, 10 senior and 6 junior! (It's possible that's all the retrievers in NM, but hey, the Colorado folks come too. I'm headed back east for the summer. I guess then I'll see the problem first hand.


I think the CO circuit got hit hard last year because of the MN being so close to us...so far this year we are looking pretty good. Like I said, I truly believe that the push to qualify for the MN plays a huge part in the limits being reached, especially for those areas where the MN is being held.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Mid Atlantic clubs with 60 dog limits , you better know someone to get in.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> You got that right  Now we have a new one to add to the list ... swamp collies, rugs, fluffies, and now fluffy fruitloops.


 You forgot "Marsh Mops".


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

My letter to Mr Rascoe
Mr Rascoe, I humbly submit that there be a PUBLISHED closing date for hunt tests , on the DAY the premiums are published.
This would eliminate the appearance of the good ole boys letting their buddies (or budettes) know that the test will open at a certain time, so they can get in. I know I have received texts from my friends to let me know a certain club is opening at a certain time, which I appreciate , but do not think is fair to others who do not get the same heads up.
I live in Eastern Pa , so run Md, NJ , Pa, Ny and Va test , where most clubs seem to have gone to a 60 dog limit.
I plan on running MH in Aug to title and Q for the MN . Will I be able to get in enough tests???? Time will tell
THank you for your time
Bridget Bodine


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Bridget, did you mean published OPENING date?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Whoopsy yes I did , thanks Sharon


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I thought fluffy fruitloops was referring to Golden owners.


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## GoldenRun (Sep 25, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> My letter to Mr Rascoe
> Mr Rascoe, I humbly submit that there be a PUBLISHED closing date for hunt tests , on the DAY the premiums are published.
> This would eliminate the appearance of the good ole boys letting their buddies (or budettes) know that the test will open at a certain time, so they can get in. I know I have received texts from my friends to let me know a certain club is opening at a certain time, which I appreciate , but do not think is fair to others who do not get the same heads up.
> I live in Eastern Pa , so run Md, NJ , Pa, Ny and Va test , where most clubs seem to have gone to a 60 dog limit.
> ...


Nice letter Bridget! I wonder if the AKC would consider a random draw?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

duk4me said:


> I thought fluffy fruitloops was referring to Golden owners.


Ha ! Me too!


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Too bad a thread that has merit goes to the gang BS.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

John the horse has been beat to DEATH in several other threads. Write your representative with your suggestions and when they come out with the new rulings we can beat THAT to death too!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

jacduck said:


> Too bad a thread that has merit goes to the gang BS.


Feel free to put any of us on this thread with a sense of humor on ignore. Or are you on an acid tie dye acid trip? Perhaps you have been in Matagorda to long. Lighten up dude. Noone has ruined this thread just had a little fun at the expense of the Golden owners.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

For any east coasters having trouble getting into a master stake NETN is the last weekend in April. Event has been open for several weeks but only 20 master entries so far. 

As for the original thread, another proposal that has been submitted is to allow a wait list so folks have an equal shot of getting in as scratches occur prior to the close. Seems it would be easy for EE to administer but first needs AKC approval. If you support the change, let your RHTAC rep know.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> For any east coasters having trouble getting into a master stake NETN is the last weekend in April. Event has been open for several weeks but only 20 master entries so far.
> 
> As for the original thread, another proposal that has been submitted is to allow a wait list so folks have an equal shot of getting in as scratches occur prior to the close. Seems it would be easy for EE to administer but first needs AKC approval. If you support the change, let your RHTAC rep know.


Which will take at a minimum til 1-1-15. 
Since most clubs are aware of the problem, why not voluntarily post the opening date on EE?


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

What I've noticed on entries at a few tests this year is that there appear to be a number of scratches that occur just before (or after) the official close time, probably as ee goes through their e-mail received prior to close time. My suggestion would be for clubs to set a close time of noon, so that any last minute scratches can be filled by people actually waiting to enter.

T. Mac


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## skyy (Mar 25, 2014)

Thomas D said:


> Since most clubs are aware of the problem, why not voluntarily post the opening date on EE?


If you look some clubs are doing this already......


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## Laura Weinmann (Oct 1, 2012)

I emailed Bill Teague and requested that the HT Rules committee examine the option of removing the requirement that clubs host multiple levels at a hunt test. If a club can host a MH and SH or JH at a venue - it stands to reason that they can host a split Master stake on the same amount of land. So a club could do its MH test on one weekend and a JH/SH or double JH/SH on a separate weekend. And also the requirement that events be 200 miles apart unless permission is granted - should also be adjusted. The rules could be written as to not allow direct stake competition of stakes but definitely if the offering is for different stake levels - there is no conflict. Just a little more calendar managing needed at AKC - but since they love the growth of the HTs - they should be willing to do what is needed. 
My suggestion flies in the face of one of the reasons MH tests are now limited - lack of help. I think the original intent of limited entry was for serious land constraints not for shrinking work forces. Offering clubs different ways to divide up their stakes or options on when to host may help some clubs return to unlimited Master stakes.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> You forgot "Marsh Mops".


Thanks for reminding me, Sharon


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

skyy said:


> If you look some clubs are doing this already......


I have looked and SOME are. SOME meaning very few.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Thomas D said:


> I have looked and SOME are. SOME meaning very few.


Part of the problem is that the AKC has not been quick to approve events--particularly this spring. In order for some sort of known opening date to become common, the clubs will need some help from the AKC to approve them more quickly or at least be a little more transparent about the process. Right now it seems to be submit the information, wait, wait, call the AKC, wait some more, make more calls, etc. When it is finally approved there often is not much time left.


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## GoldenRun (Sep 25, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> Part of the problem is that the AKC has not been quick to approve events--particularly this spring. In order for some sort of known opening date to become common, the clubs will need some help from the AKC to approve them more quickly or at least be a little more transparent about the process. Right now it seems to be submit the information, wait, wait, call the AKC, wait some more, make more calls, etc. When it is finally approved there often is not much time left.


This is confusing. So why is this hunt test not finalized but has an opening date? I'm not complaining, great to see an opening date announced but it seems conflicting to your statement. https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedIn/viewevent.aspx?eid=6455


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

GoldenRun said:


> This is confusing. So why is this hunt test not finalized but has an opening date? I'm not complaining, great to see an opening date announced but it seems conflicting to your statement. https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedIn/viewevent.aspx?eid=6455


Anyone can put it out there with an opening date but they cannot guarantee that they can open it on that date. It cannot be opened until the AKC approves, as I stated. Since this is a November trial, if they get their judges and everything lined up, they may be able to make it, but who knows? I don't think this one will have a limit, anyway.

Is your fall HT finalized and ready to go to the AKC? How long did you wait for them to approve your spring HT?


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

DoubleHaul said:


> Part of the problem is that the AKC has not been quick to approve events--particularly this spring. In order for some sort of known opening date to become common, the clubs will need some help from the AKC to approve them more quickly or at least be a little more transparent about the process. Right now it seems to be submit the information, wait, wait, call the AKC, wait some more, make more calls, etc. When it is finally approved there often is not much time left.


This has been my experience too. Particularly this spring. It makes it very difficult to anticipate a opening date when you have no idea how long it will take to get the event approved.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Kyle Bertram said:


> This has been my experience too. Particularly this spring. It makes it very difficult to anticipate a opening date when you have no idea how long it will take to get the event approved.


It certainly is not something that not fixable, but in my letter to the RHTAC, I did point out that if one of the options was notice of opening time, that they would have to work with the AKC to ensure that their review process is timely and transparent. It really should not take long when the likely only changes from previous HTs are the judges and the year.


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## fuchsr (Aug 10, 2008)

Thanks, Laura, this is actually the first new and original idea I have heard on this topic in quite a while. Very intriguing. This offers a creative way to address the resource constrains (people or space) a club may have without the need to limit master entries. I hope the AKC will look at his suggestion, and look at it favorably. Will get my club to support it.

Having run dogs in other venues that limit entries (agility and tracking), for me the problem in hunt tests comes down to two specific issues:
- No standard for publishing opening dates. Seems pretty straightforward to address. 
- Large number of dogs entered by pros. As much as pros enrich this sport and benefit all of us amateurs, when I hear stories that in some locales a single pros may enter 20 dogs or more (and thus eat up a third of available capacity), then we have a problem. In the Northeast I haven't really seen this happen but 10 dogs or so, sure. Not obvious what to do about it. Limiting number of dogs per handler is one option but probably too radical, plus prone to "workarounds". One idea proposed by a fellow local club member was to request that pros make helpers available to the club but the logistics of that look daunting. Or maybe adopt the approach taken in tracking events, a lottery system. Of course the laws of probability would still favor folks that enter multiple dogs but it would also avoid the need to have access to a computer the day the test opens to make sure you get in.

-Rainer



Laura Weinmann said:


> I emailed Bill Teague and requested that the HT Rules committee examine the option of removing the requirement that clubs host multiple levels at a hunt test. If a club can host a MH and SH or JH at a venue - it stands to reason that they can host a split Master stake on the same amount of land. So a club could do its MH test on one weekend and a JH/SH or double JH/SH on a separate weekend. And also the requirement that events be 200 miles apart unless permission is granted - should also be adjusted. The rules could be written as to not allow direct stake competition of stakes but definitely if the offering is for different stake levels - there is no conflict. Just a little more calendar managing needed at AKC - but since they love the growth of the HTs - they should be willing to do what is needed.
> My suggestion flies in the face of one of the reasons MH tests are now limited - lack of help. I think the original intent of limited entry was for serious land constraints not for shrinking work forces. Offering clubs different ways to divide up their stakes or options on when to host may help some clubs return to unlimited Master stakes.


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## LabskeBill (Nov 12, 2012)

I think an aside for the issue is that many enter early but when they get a dog qualified will scratch. This opens up one slot. And it has already happened for SRC and I believe it will happen again. If someone wants in a closed master why not contact the club's HT secretary and let him or her know. That way when some one scratches, the interested party can be notified and enter. Good or bad? Fair or not?

BillB


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

LabskeBill said:


> I think an aside for the issue is that many enter early but when they get a dog qualified will scratch. This opens up one slot. And it has already happened for SRC and I believe it will happen again. If someone wants in a closed master why not contact the club's HT secretary and let him or her know. That way when some one scratches, the interested party can be notified and enter. Good or bad? Fair or not?
> 
> BillB


Issue with this is that before closing that would require the Event secretary to watch EE like a hawk and after closing there isn't anything they can do for the person based on the rules.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

LabskeBill said:


> I think an aside for the issue is that many enter early but when they get a dog qualified will scratch. This opens up one slot. And it has already happened for SRC and I believe it will happen again. If someone wants in a closed master why not contact the club's HT secretary and let him or her know. That way when some one scratches, the interested party can be notified and enter. Good or bad? Fair or not?
> 
> BillB



The problem with that, Bill, is that the HT Secretary isn't necessarily notified that a scratch is happening. If you want in after the flight is full and before the close, just keep checking back to see if someone scratched.

Plus there might be 10 or more who would want this type of notification.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

However with modern technology I don't see why EE can't set up "notifications" - come on FB lets me know when someone "likes" some dumb ass status update I make! 

Should be able to get a message/email stating an event has been open for entries, it is at it's limit, a scratch has happened and so forth...

FOM


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

FOM said:


> However with modern technology I don't see why EE can't set up "notifications" - come on FB lets me know when someone "likes" some dumb ass status update I make!
> 
> Should be able to get a message/email stating an event has been open for entries, it is at it's limit, a scratch has happened and so forth...
> 
> FOM


That could be a good idea and would, with their technology, seem to be a fairly easy way to offer some good customer support. Why don't you suggest that to EE directly? I tried with the wait-list idea but they bucked that back to the AKC.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> A
> The only people that know when the Hunt Tests are open are the Club Members and their friends.
> ---------------------





Bridget Bodine said:


> Mid Atlantic clubs with 60 dog limits , you better know someone to get in.



1. Membership has it's privileges
2. If you can't beat em, join em

Active club members are the lifeblood of this game.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> However with modern technology I don't see why EE can't set up "notifications" - come on FB lets me know when someone "likes" some dumb ass status update I make!
> 
> Should be able to get a message/email stating an event has been open for entries, it is at it's limit, a scratch has happened and so forth...
> 
> FOM


Really great idea!!! Unfortunately their developer had some attendance problems and is grounded until further notice. 

Where in the wild wild west is Shane when ya need him regards

Bubba


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## LabskeBill (Nov 12, 2012)

FOM said:


> Issue with this is that before closing that would require the Event secretary to watch EE like a hawk and after closing there isn't anything they can do for the person based on the rules.


I had a little different idea. Just have an interested party notify HT secy. Have the scratcher notify the HT secy first. HT secy lets her /his buddy know first! Okay folks just joking!
Billb


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Bubba said:


> Where in the wild wild west is Shane when ya need him regards
> 
> Bubba



I hope "They", rue the day. That they thought to take EE away.
Remember when they copied Shayne's original EE text onto the rtfn entry page?
and in the end "They" have it all. What about the rumor he never ever got fully paid? is that true?
I miss the days when it was midnight and you screwed up an entry you would shout out to Shayne and he would have Stacey on it shazam!! we watched his concept take shape and watched him butt heads with the AKC in front of our eyes. and now????????
This is one of those "careful what you wish for" moments ain't it?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Go watch the field trial, and you might want to describe it differently


I agree. Its more of a bandana parade of minivans and window shades...

/Paul


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I don't know why EE doesn't have an "also eligible" list of people who entered after a master test filled, the way horse racing does. These people get first dibs when there's a scratch. If they don't get in, they get their entry fee refunded. They could also get in if there are after the deadline scratches. Seems like it would be of benefit to the clubs (losing $ for after deadline scratch refunds) as well as EE as it would collect fees whether the also eligible get in or not.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Julie R. said:


> I don't know why EE doesn't have an "also eligible" list of people who entered after a master test filled, the way horse racing does. These people get first dibs when there's a scratch. If they don't get in, they get their entry fee refunded. They could also get in if there are after the deadline scratches. Seems like it would be of benefit to the clubs (losing $ for after deadline scratch refunds) as well as EE as it would collect fees whether the also eligible get in or not.


This makes entirely too much sense.


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## JamesTannery (Jul 29, 2006)

I'm just waiting on a test to have 65 percent pros and they all scratch!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

AKC also loses fees when the test falls below the limit. Maybe those losses will be of some interest to them?


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

I have noticed that several of the clubs having 60 dog limited masters are going ahead with double juniors and seniors. Why isn't one junior and one senior sufficient for a weekend? The added land and help could be utilized as another 60 dog master for that club. The demand seems to be in the master. There are also clubs who are offering only double juniors and seniors anyway.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Our club's test was this weekend. When it opened, master was filled in about a half hour. Some people were able to get in by watching the scratches on EE, but in the end we ended up with only 48 master dogs. 10 scratches and 2 no shows. Junior/senior entries were very low--under 20 in each.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> Our club's test was this weekend. When it opened, master was filled in about a half hour. Some people were able to get in by watching the scratches on EE, but in the end we ended up with only 48 master dogs. 10 scratches and 2 no shows. Junior/senior entries were very low--under 20 in each.


That bites Julie. I wanted in that test and couldn't get in. It looks like I won't be able to get in a Va test this spring.

Some one mentioned club privileges? Yup, you are right. But does that mean you need to join ALL the clubs in the surrounding states? I belong to three clubs, a retriever club, an obedience club and a specialty club. That is all I can physically manage to help with. I don't see the point of joining multiple clubs when I wouldn't have the time to pull my weight at all of them. Running just the tests my clubs put on would never get me any titles. So just joining a club is not a viable alternative.


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

suepuff said:


> That bites Julie. I wanted in that test and couldn't get in. It looks like I won't be able to get in a Va test this spring.


Sue, come on down to Northeast TN April 25-27. Easy three hour drive down I-81. You can stay in VA, and run in TN! Plenty of Master spots left!


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey Mountain Duck! I wanted to, I love those grounds, but have an annual family gathering that weekend. I'm bummed! It's fun to run there. Sending some friends to the minor stakes tho! Hoping to catch you guys in the fall test.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Pat Puwal said:


> I have noticed that several of the clubs having 60 dog limited masters are going ahead with double juniors and seniors. Why isn't one junior and one senior sufficient for a weekend? The added land and help could be utilized as another 60 dog master for that club. The demand seems to be in the master. There are also clubs who are offering only double juniors and seniors anyway.


It is not the same thing. You could do a double JH or SH in a day on way less grounds than a MH takes. Besides, those younger dogs have to run somewhere before they can start complaining about getting closed out of MH tests. 

Why not join one of the clubs of which you complain and help them get more grounds. I am sure that would be appreciated--the club would make more money and the club members would certainly enjoy the additional grounds on which to train.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Pat Puwal said:


> I have noticed that several of the clubs having 60 dog limited masters are going ahead with double juniors and seniors. Why isn't one junior and one senior sufficient for a weekend? The added land and help could be utilized as another 60 dog master for that club. The demand seems to be in the master. There are also clubs who are offering only double juniors and seniors anyway.


 JH & SH are easier tests to run with less cost. Figure a JH pays 65X2= $130, SH pays 70X2 ($140) per weekend, both use ~2 live flyers & 6 other birds per weekend(which can be re-used), manpower= 2 stations; Easier to find qualified local judges for the lower stakes & Judges for JH & SH usually switch, added entries more than cover the cost to bring in another set of judges. 

Master = $80 x1 runs 2 days, takes up 9 birds, 1-2 flyers (not including blinds); man power for @ least 3 stations each series. Judges only judge master, and clubs do not get extra entry fees for putting on an extra test Sunday. Most of the time judges must be brought in, added cost. Running a single 60 dog master over 2 days is a long arduous process, for everyone involved. Where-as running a double JH SH which usually have ~20-30 dogs, that end @ 2pm each day is much easier.

$130- 80 =club is missing out on $50 or $140 - 80 = club missing out of $60 for Sun if they choose a another flight on MH and a single JH &SH. Also most JH & SH handlers are used to having a double, if a double isn't offered entries are usually significantly lower. Just my experience but clubs are more apt to lose money on masters and make it back with the lower stakes, lower entries on a single JH & SH, don't help as much with offsetting the MH cost. Plus it gets back to why in the world are clubs putting on these tests? For all levels of retrievers, or just to cater to the MH/MNH set, without amateur JH and SH handlers enjoying themselves, coming up, helping at tests, taking on positions in clubs; we eventually don't have the blood to keep a club running. 

Point to fact we had 5 AKC clubs in this area, so many many AKC tests, in recent years we now have 2 strong clubs (who keep bringing in new blood), and 3 that might put on a single test ever 2-4 years. Why? lack of man-power; workers get burnt out with no-new blood to take over.

The energy in the lower stakes is what keeps a club moving, focusing on the higher stakes is where clubs go to retire and die.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

I can certainly appreciate your economic prospectus as it pertains to your club and area. Forty years ago the argument that minor stakes bring in new blood and keep the sport healthy was used for field trials. In those days, the derby and qualifying were large stakes. Today the open and amateur continue strong, but some of the derby and qualifying stakes are very small -less than 20 dogs in some areas. The hunt test sport may be moving in that direction. Hopefully, something will be done about filling scratches before the events start. A club a couple of hundred miles from us just had a 60 dog limited master. It filled within hours originally, but when the actual event took place there were 12 scratches. They only had one senior for 17 dogs and two juniors - one with 18 dogs and one with 16 dogs. Have to believe those 12 scratches hurt the bottom line economically.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Pat Puwal said:


> . Forty years ago the argument that minor stakes bring in new blood and keep the sport healthy was used for field trials. In those days, the derby and qualifying were large stakes. Today the open and amateur continue strong, but some of the derby and qualifying stakes are very small -less than 20 dogs in some areas. .


Apples and Oranges, Derby and qualifying has nothing in it for and newbie weekend amateur who will keep his one dog forever no matter what; HTs have been gaining in popularity. FTs are pretty much in stasis, which is where I believe most FT contestants like them . Why is that? Perhaps because You simply need to work towards meeting a standard to get a ribbon-title, no winning needed, no (2 yr.)time limit on when you need to get it done, and those accomplishment go on pedigrees, you even get a certificate in the mail . They are obtainable and sequential goals/awards, for people who enjoy working their dogs, who only have the weekend. Whether it takes 6 months or 10 years of training-testing, to get anywhere, you can still enjoy time with your dog, and even have some success. You see people with kids, and puppies running around at a HT, camping on the grounds, going to the dinner/raffle, volunteering to throw. Most of these type are running their own dogs, most are somewhere in the lower stakes. As long as they continue to enjoy themselves they stick around, come back and help. When a weekend becomes too much labor and not enough fun they leave. Too many of them leave, there's no man-power, the club becomes ran by 4-5 people, running everything with no-one to train up; evenutally they too succumb to the lack of fun; I'll just hire a Pro and the club dies.


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