# E-collar Stimulation Levels 101???



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

OK guys and gals,

I'm hoping that one of you can answer this.

I've heard that the stimulation levels on a collar -let's say a TT Pro 500 in "nick" mode, overlap... I've also heard they stairstep up linearly (which I don't think I buy)

Who can tell me: Is it A)

From low to high 1 low, 1 med, 1 high, 2 low, 2 med, 2 high, 3 low.....

Or is it B)

There's some overlap and a 3 high is higher than a 4 low (as an example)

I've heard it both ways. 

Is there any sort of calibrated settings that would quantify the specified electricity "doses" for each level of stimulation? (I realize that there will be ranges and there will be variations from unit to unit and likely from brand new perfect batteries versus old worn ones)

Thanks!

Chris


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## [email protected]@##? (Jan 19, 2005)

FWIW I have found that the duration of the nick (the low, med, high) its at least as important as the number. That is to say for my dog a 2 high is a tougher correction then a 3 low. 

I believe the 1-5 controls the juice, but the low, med high controls the duration of the juice in the nick mode (somehting like 1/100, 1/10th and 1 full second)? Continous is a whole different thing and I rarely use it.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Chis,

It depends on the make and model of collar. They all don't work the same. You'll need to research each of the collars you're interested in to determine how each of them work.

In the case of a Pro 500, the levels vary (low, medium, high) in the continuous mode. In the momentary mode the level remains the same, but the duration of the nick varies (nick, bump, burn).


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

I am not sure about the levels scaling, but we only use continuous. Timing is everything with the collar, and you need to be able to control that down to the nanosecond. :lol:


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

msdaisey said:


> I am not sure about the levels scaling, but we only use continuous. Timing is everything with the collar, and you need to be able to control that down to the nanosecond. :lol:


 :shock: So you only burn your dog? You don't take advantage of the numerous benefits of the momentary stimulation?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, i've discussed this numerous times regarding TT collars in particular and while I can't fully explain the electrical aspect of it, what I can tell ya is that a high 6 does not overlap with a low 1. Hope that helps some, its all a simple ******* can fully understand.

/Paul


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## Lab-Kid (Aug 26, 2005)

Put it on your arm and try it out! Everyone should know exactly what correction they are subjecting their dog to.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Lab-Kid said:


> Put it on your arm and try it out! Everyone should know exactly what correction they are subjecting their dog to.


I agree... I think we all - human and canine have our own thresholds of pain. But the best way to put ourselves in the shoes of another is to see how we personally would interpret it.

I've zapped myself all the way up to the highest level I've given my dog.... But I'm looking for a little "science" or a little engineering design knowledge, if anyone on the board has it.

Chris


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Not trying to be smark alecky, but have you contacted TriTronics? They might be the best ones to give you an explanation.

No smart donkeys :wink: in Maine regards,

Andy


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Andy Carlson said:


> Not trying to be smark alecky, but have you contacted TriTronics? They might be the best ones to give you an explanation.
> 
> No smart donkeys :wink: in Maine regards,
> 
> Andy


 Yes, I spoke with the product specialist a while ago....

I really do need to have another discussion.

I was told that it is a linear stairstep or progression with no overlap. I was told that the specific, quantified levels were either not readily available or were considered proprietary... You're right though, I need to give them another call.

Chris - an "Amish Trainer" 1978 - 2007 ...not looking back.....

:wink:


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Chris - an "Amish Trainer" 1978 - 2007 ...not looking back.....
> 
> :wink:


Glad you have no regrets about joining us in the Un-Amish world!  

Andy


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

Chris,

I think there is some overlap to the stimulation levels with the TT collars. I have a Pro 500 G2 and I often will get a bigger response from a dog on a high correction (say High 2) as compared to a low 3. I also very rarely use the momentary correction on my collar. I can give a quicker "nick" if needed than the momentary switch will and can also give a longer correction if needed without having to worry about flipping the switch from momentary to continuous. 

I feel a lot of people who are new to collar work do a lot more nagging with the collar than actually correcting with the collar. I am all for giving the dog the benefit of the doubt in most situations, but when a correction is called for, I want to make sure the dog gets the point. I have found that over the years, I use the collar a lot less frequently than I used to, but when I do use it, I get a better response to the correction. I feel that I use to "nag" the dog with lots of low level stimulation that a lot of dogs would just shrug off. Now, when a correction is called for, I use the upper level that the dogs work on, make my point and move on. Seems to work for me.

Joe


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

All I know is it's a BIG jump from mid to high on a G2 in momentary mode.

I'll use low and med but would drop one intensity level to use high. Beacuse of that I pretty much just use low med and if I need more I go up in intensity, then low, high, etc.

Let me speak to someone "in the back" and see what I can find out.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> OK guys and gals,
> 
> I'm hoping that one of you can answer this.
> 
> ...


In "Nick" mode they do NOT overlap. 

In "Nick" mode the differnce in a low, med, and high is the duration of the nick. I heard high was 1/10 of a second, med was 1/100 and low was 1/1000. 

In the continuous mode, I really don't know. My impression was that a 4 low was higher than a 3 high. But I can't say for sure.


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## Zack (May 17, 2005)

They dont overlap. You get a bigger reaction on a 3 high vs a 4 low due to the frequency of the "pulse" with high stimulation vs low stimulation.

Edit: In continuous mode


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

thunderdog said:


> I can give a quicker "nick" if needed than the momentary switch will and can also give a longer correction if needed without having to worry about flipping the switch from momentary to continuous.


There ain't no way you can give a "quicker" nick, nor more consistently on continous. :wink: 

I agree about switching from momentary to continuous. 

A lot is what you get used to. I like the 200 or flyway. I can use the buttons for a "Nick" at what I feel is appropriate and aother button for a "burn" on continuous when that is appropriate withoug changing anything. 



thunderdog said:


> I feel a lot of people who are new to collar work do a lot more nagging with the collar than actually correcting with the collar. I am all for giving the dog the benefit of the doubt in most situations, but when a correction is called for, I want to make sure the dog gets the point. I have found that over the years, I use the collar a lot less frequently than I used to, but when I do use it, I get a better response to the correction. I feel that I use to "nag" the dog with lots of low level stimulation that a lot of dogs would just shrug off. Now, when a correction is called for, I use the upper level that the dogs work on, make my point and move on. Seems to work for me.


I also agree about this part. It is suposed to be aversive.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Allright...last question and then I'll promise to call TT to get their input.

If we agree that the difference on a TT Pro 500 G2 IN MOMENTARY is the "duration" from low - to med - to high....

I CC'd according to Lardy's video using continuous and just "tapped" the button (yes, I tested it on my ownself first)

So, I got in the habit of just tapping. 

Now that I'm through "basics" and into "transition" I use 99.9% of the time "momentary". I've still gotten in the habit of tapping the button(s). So I depress the button(s) identically whether in low, med, or high momentary. 

Is it possible that in "high" momentary, the collar is still giving off stimulus after I release the button, or is it that the low momentary is so incredibly brief that it is not humanly possible to tap and release that quickly?


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Steve Hester said:


> msdaisey said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure about the levels scaling, but we only use continuous. Timing is everything with the collar, and you need to be able to control that down to the nanosecond. :lol:
> ...


Yes, everyone in my training group totally fries all of their dogs with the collar. :roll: That's why one was just a NAFC finalist (and trained by a man who has previously won the stake). :roll: :roll: :roll: 8) 

We change the levels, but you can only get the exact 'stimulation' you need by being in control of when a 'signal' is sent.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

While you are on the blower with them, it would be interesting to know if the buttons are "one shot" and if so, how long the delay is before they are active again. For instance, if you hit both to get the "High" and then release the buttons non-simultaneously is it possible to get a subsequent Low or medium on the way out.

Stupid question regards

Bubba


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Bubba said:


> While you are on the blower with them, it would be interesting to know if the buttons are "one shot" and if so, how long the delay is before they are active again. For instance, if you hit both to get the "High" and then release the buttons non-simultaneously is it possible to get a subsequent Low or medium on the way out.
> 
> Stupid question regards
> 
> Bubba


Not a stupid question. The delay is part of the reason we use the continuous mode. 

Turn your collar on and up to 6. Put the collar up to your ear, and start pressing buttons at different settings You can hear the difference in timing and the delay if you need to repeat the momentary. And, yes, I have burned myself with the collar, both intentionally and not!


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Now that I'm through "basics" and into "transition" I use 99.9% of the time "momentary". I've still gotten in the habit of tapping the button(s). So I depress the button(s) identically whether in low, med, or high momentary.
> 
> Is it possible that in "high" momentary, the collar is still giving off stimulus after I release the button, or is it that the low momentary is so incredibly brief that it is not humanly possible to tap and release that quickly?


1. It is not humanly possible to tap and release that quickly. 

2. Tapping the buttons, can cause some inconsistent resposnes. I'm not sure which models or modes. But Lardy was trying to demonstrate this with a 500 G2 and couldn't do it but he could with his 500 XLS in momentary. Sometimes he'd get a nick, sometimes nothing. It didn't seem to do it in continuous mode. 

3. Trying to tap a High, which is both buttons, is even more complicated and inconsistent.

Hope that helps.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

In this digital age, I agree they don't overlap unless Tritronics software is written to overlap (& they say it's not), but it may not be mathmatically linear either (not that it is crucial). Tritronics does say 6 is hotter than 5, 5 is hotter than 4 , etc & that with each level you get low, med & high.

I think we observe a preceived overlap or inconsistent correction application due to variables completely outside of the e-collar. The dog is usually moving, so the dog's hair provides a variable resistance. The dog's neck varies somewhat in size do to slight variations in weight, muscle tone, momentary stress etc in relation to the e-collar fit so the e-collar is more or less effective in transmitting the nick/burn. In the water a better conduction path is provided. All variables outside of the e-collar itself.


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

Just got out my G2 for some very unscientific testing. I can match or beat the high momentary setting by tapping the buttons. This was determined by hooking up a test light to the electrodes. As Doug stated, the difference in low, medium and high momentary is duration. From what I can see with a test light, the low momentary nick would be practically useless at anything but the highest level to get any kind of correction.

I got no inconsistent reponses with the G2 will tapping the buttons. However, I did run the battery down on my collar while playing with it. I am also happy to report that I managed to not give myself a correction while playing with the collar.

Joe


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## bandcollector (Oct 9, 2003)

I sure like the new on/off button on the collar. On my old one you had to hold the stim button down until the collar turned off. One time it was giving me some trouble and I ended up turning the collar up to 6 while trying to turn it off. All I can say is it hurt like hell, I vocalized and I could actually hear the spark as it welded my hand to the contacts. :shock:


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

This is how it works with the Pro 500 --

First you have five levels of power, that is a given.

Second you have three intensities. Intensities are based on pulses.

Low intensity (bottom button alone) the pulses are more spread apart, might be represented by this: - - - - <pulse> - - - - <pulse> - - - - <pulse>

Medium intensity (top button alone) the pulses come closer together, might be represented by this: - - <pulse> - - <pulse> - - <pulse>

High intensity (top and bottom button together) is LITERALLY just that, the top buttons intensity and the bottom buttons intensity combined together and might look like this: - <pulse> - <pulse> - <pulse>

So to answer your question "is there overlap?" Not really, because there are very real differences between the levels of power, and between power and intensity.

As Zack said a 3-high might feel worse to the dog than a 4-low because it is more intense, despite the 4-low having more power.

This is one of the things that is so ingenious about these tools. Not all dogs are the same. Some can deal with the power, some can't. Some can't deal with the intensity, some can. You can thoughtfully dial in the tool specifically to your dog.


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## Zack (May 17, 2005)

AmiableLabs said:


> This is how it works with the Pro 500 --
> 
> First you have five levels of power, that is a given.


All my Pro 500's have 6 levels.

:twisted:


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Zack said:


> All my Pro 500's have 6 levels. :twisted:


I don't consider "0" a level.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

(Pssst Kevin, the newer models have 6 instead of 5 :wink: )


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Swampcollie said:


> (Pssst Kevin, the newer models have 6 instead of 5 :wink: )


Ooops.  :wink:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> Swampcollie said:
> 
> 
> > (Pssst Kevin, the newer models have 6 instead of 5 :wink: )
> ...


Its ok Kevin. you just forgot to keep going on the next hand...

/Paul


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

Good luck with TT!  I called them when i was looking to buy and they wouldn't tell me a thing. Sport Dog on the other hand was very forthcoming.


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## Riverrun (Jun 8, 2004)

*Tri-Tronics Stimulation Levels*

Chris,

You asked, "Is there any sort of calibrated settings that would quantify the specified electricity "doses" for each level of stimulation?"

I asked this question of Tri-Tronics many years ago and never received a definitive answer. I have collar conditioned approximately
10-20 dogs/year for the last 10 years using Tri-Tronics collars and from this experience have reached, what I believe is, an informed conclusion. From the dogs reaction/perception, it is not a linear stair-step from 1 low, 1 med, 1 high, 2 low, 2 med, 2 high, 3 low..... It is linear from 1 low, 2 low, 3 low..... or 1 med, 2 med, 3 medium..... This applies whether in the continuous mode or the momentary mode. As others have mentioned, the dogs have a stronger reaction to a high 3 vs. a low 4 or a stronger reaction to a high 4 vs. a low 5 in both continuous or momentary modes. 

In regard to tapping the button while in momentary mode, it's not the best technique as a quick tap may result in no correction.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

*Chris, Tri Tronics momentary setting duration info.*

Ok, I was a little amazed at what I was told....

The shortest duration on a G2 [lower black button] on the momentary setting is 6 micro seconds. That's 6 millionths of a second!

[1 micro second = 1 millionth of a second.]

Upper balck is 36 micro seconds and high [both black buttons] is a big jump to 216 micro seconds.

The fastest they've ever been able to record with a quick tap and release in the continous mode is 15 hundredths of a second. So much for a quick tap being "like" the momentary setting.

That's straight from the engineering dept at TT.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks for looking into this. It explains a lot of questions I had about my dog's reaction to the various intensity levels.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Alec,

Thank you VERY much!

I have not taken the time to call TT and ask since speaking with one of their frontline "product specialits" who was darn good, but I can see why this individual would not have the nuts and bolts of the science.

So, I've taken your figures and put them on a sheet of paper:

From a "length of correction" standpoint:

Low Momentary = 0.000006 seconds
Medium Momentary = 0.000036 seconds
High Momentary = 0.000216 seconds
Fastest Humanly
Possible Continuous 
"nick" = 0.150000 seconds

*This means that a "nick" on continuous lasts 694 times longer than a high "momentary" on a G2 TT Pro 500!!!!!!*

THAT explains a LOT in how we and our dogs perceive the stimulation!

*************************************************

So the above is all "duration"....the other piece is the "intensity" discussion.

Is it accurate that in "momentary", all levels of stimulation equal the "High - Continuous" level for that particular setting? In other words, a Low momentary 3 is the same as delivering a high continuous 3 for 6 microseconds.

What would really be neat would be to have the quantified "volts" (I became an INdustrial Engineer and bailed out of mechanical and chemical disciplines over OHMS, AMPS, and Thermodynamics!) or whatever the proper measurement is for intensity settings on the G2 500 for 

Cont. versus Momentary on each dial setting. To my mind, that would really help.

***************************************************

Eggheads who remain eggheads post-degree...( I took my degree in 87 and ran straight to "Tech Sales"!) Are my above numbers correct, assuming the stats given to Alec are right?

Thanks again Alec! I'd hand the transmitter over for Bus-turd to you in a heartbeat.

Chris


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

> Is it accurate that in "momentary", all levels of stimulation equal the "High - Continuous" level for that particular setting? In other words, a Low momentary 3 is the same as delivering a high continuous 3 for 6 microseconds.


As I understand it, yes. Continous intensity [at a given level] is the same as the intensity while using the monentary setting at all three durations [but a hell of a lot longer!]


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## Retired Gunner 2 (Mar 28, 2007)

*TT tech*

Chris I don't know you, or ever met you. However, if you figured this out, you're way over qualified to run the register at Wal-Mart. I'm just now learning to hold the collar prong side out from my ear to hear the buzzing noise to see if it's working.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

*Re: Chris, Tri Tronics momentary setting duration info.*



[email protected] said:


> The fastest they've ever been able to record with a quick tap and release in the continous mode is 15 hundredths of a second. So much for a quick tap being "like" the momentary setting.
> 
> That's straight from the engineering dept at TT.


So, I've been trying to beat thier record for an hour. I strapped that collar on my arm, got a stop watch and transmitter and been going at beatting that record. I haven't done it yet, but I got all day....

/Paul


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

The TT boys need to see my old man on this subject. I distinctly remember that 1 microsecond is equal to the time that elapses between smarting off to the old man and the first punch landing.

For reference, a flourescent light is "blinking" at 60 HZ which is right on the threshhold for most himans to detect the flicker. That would be .01666 seconds or about 16,666 microseconds.


.15 seconds indeed regards


Bubba


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

nnnnooooo llllluuuuuccccckkkkkk yyyyyeeeeetttttt beeeaaatttttinnnngggg theee rrrreeeecccoooorddddd. buuubbuuuuaaaaa iiii''mmmm ggggooonnnnnaaaa nneeeeedddddd mmmmoooorrrrreeeee beeeeeerrrrrr Ffrrrriiiidaaaayyyyy


/////pppaaauuullllll


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

What a dumbass!!! 

Ya strapped the collar on the arm that you are running the stopwatch with dint ya?


Just put the collar around your neck like educated folk and everything will be fine, trust me on this. Also it's easier to get an accurate measurement when the knob on the transmitter points to the little 6. Mash both buttons on the collar for the best measurement.

Gotta teach some folks everything regards

BUbba


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## Jeff B. (Feb 5, 2003)

I'm going to put a DC volt meter on my collar tonight and see what I can get. It's a 500xl.

If I can read it accuratley I'll record the voltage for the various levels.

I'll report back later tonight or tomorrow.

Jeff


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> nnnnooooo llllluuuuuccccckkkkkk yyyyyeeeeetttttt beeeaaatttttinnnngggg theee rrrreeeecccoooorddddd. buuubbuuuuaaaaa iiii''mmmm ggggooonnnnnaaaa nneeeeedddddd mmmmoooorrrrreeeee beeeeeerrrrrr Ffrrrriiiidaaaayyyyy
> 
> 
> /////pppaaauuullllll


So how's that working out??

Besides, Friday is my birthday and I plan on being Waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too drive to drunk.

7/7/7 ain't diddly, I'm waiting for 13/13/13 regards

Bubba


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I would love to see the G2 Pro 500 voltages at each of the settings.

Honestly, for the average turd-kickin' dog trainer like myself, I'm feeling like with all these different stimulation levels, ...well, like I did in the 4th grade when I saved up my money.

I saved up and went to Knabe's Sports Center at the Monroeville Mall and bought myself a Mossberg 10 speed bike. I don't know about the rest of you, but I found that as a 10 year old kid with 10 speeds, I probably used about three speeds at the most. The rest was just a bunch of confusing settings in the middle!

Like a good buddy told me, only use the amount of "correction" needed and don't worry about what the rheostat says for dog A versus dog B...that makes a lot of sense to me.

Chris


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

To tell the truth, it will require a pretty high tech ocilloscope and some time messing with it to get the precise data. Even with the right test setup and precision test gear, the data is valid ONLY for that particular unit, manufacturing tolerances and all that yada yada.
Practical matter is that I suspect that most folks use the 2 or 3 gears that you are talking and the occaisional "NEVER DO THAT AGAIN" button. In all honesty, and bear in mind that I'm prolly the biggest cookie trainer EVER, one button will do. Atrition (NO!!! HEEEEERRRREEEE!!!! Bang!!!, Let's do that again until you get it right) is plenty and more than that is just for revenge.

Can we get back to the GDG now, I'm bored already regards

Bubba


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## Dale (Dec 21, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I would love to see the G2 Pro 500 voltages at each of the settings.
> 
> Honestly, for the average turd-kickin' dog trainer like myself, I'm feeling like with all these different stimulation levels, ...well, like I did in the 4th grade when I saved up my money.
> 
> ...



Isn't that the store they got the guns from in The Night of The Living Dead?

In regards as to how much correction, we have in western Pa. a TT rep. He says when used correctly your dog should not vocalize. If he does your most likely using to much force. 

Trying to figure out why one day he vocalizes and the next he runs through the collar like he doesn't feel it, all on the same setting.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> So how's that working out??
> 
> Besides, Friday is my birthday and I plan on being Waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too drive to drunk.
> 
> ...



Oh man, what a day. I worked on this all day and Shelby made me quit when my hair looked like this....










I've come to the conclusion that the TT boys might be right. I tried all the different levels for a while each and its damn hard to hit that button any faster. Guess I'll just have to be content as the record holder for holding onto the electric fence surrounding the bull pen the longest....birthday huh? Does this mean we get to upgrade to coors light or are we still gonna drink Busch all night?

/Paul


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I would love to see the G2 Pro 500 voltages at each of the settings.
> 
> Honestly, for the average turd-kickin' dog trainer like myself, I'm feeling like with all these different stimulation levels, ...well, like I did in the 4th grade when I saved up my money.
> 
> ...


My rule of thumb.

Once CCed, the intensity level is decided by the dogs reaction, not a "number".

On a low nick I want to see the dog respond quickly to command enforcement but not be vocal.

Medium will get a fast responce with perhaps a noticeable sign the dogs been nicked. ie. twitch/blink or a little "squeek!"

High's a big jump on a G2 and I use it when a well schooled dog has blow off a command, perhaps for the second time after an earlier nick a very short time ago. If the dogs a novice in the transition, I'll go up 2 levels and use the low or medium depending on the doggy.

After the high nick I'd expect to see a VERY good response on low as the dog is now some what sensitive to the collar.

Rule of thumb #2 is never burn your dog at the same level more then twice in a row in short order. i.e. As your heeling the dog gets ahead of you: Heel/low nick and back he comes. Ten feet later he's ahead again: Heel/nick and back he comes. At this point I'd have my finger on the trigger for a medium nick if he barges again because if the first two didn't get it a third at the same level get it won't either.

Experienced dogs may not get the same repeat chances as a novice dog or one in a CC transition.

This is a BASIC approach but a safe one for novice collars users.

Where oh where is my 8:30 client?


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## Jeff B. (Feb 5, 2003)

Bubba is correct. A regular test meter will not read the voltage. I will mess around and see if I can figure it out. I do have access to the tools to eventually get the info.

I have always been curious about the jumps in perceived intensity from medium to high to low on the next level up.

Jeff


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Was searching around on a sleepless night and found this....

Thought I'd bump it.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Another bit of information I got from the TT rep at the Lardy seminar this summer is that the frequency changes between between low, medium and high when the switch is on continuous. The signal amplitude (voltage output) is set with the dial and the signal frequency increases from low to medium to high with the two buttons.

Another interesting thing he had was the "truth box". It displays when the handler corrects the dog and the setting used on the collar. This is useful for determining if the handler really corrected the dog when they say they did, and vice versa. Mike was able to watch what the handlers were doing to the dogs and not depend on what the handlers said they did. ; - )


Steve


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

IIIIIIIIIIIII'''''''''''''''''mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm fffffffffffiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeee Chhhhhrrriiiiiisssssss, ttttthhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnkkkkkkkkssssssssss


/pppppppaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuullllllllll


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

TT once made a transmitter with a Truth Box built in, the old Pro 100. Had a pro tell me that that is exactly what the unit was for, to enable the pro to tell when the client was hitting the buttons.

Is there any truth to the various stories about certain generations of collars being hotter than others? I have been told that the G2 is the hottest so far.

I wish they made a 6 contact point so I could update my old collar. I have one dog that barks thru any level I can set on my bark collars.

Remember to obey Ohms Law!!


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Good info. Thanks Alec.

Thinking my daddy set the speed record for smart azz corrections.
________
marijuana joint


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## DH (Oct 3, 2006)

Bob,

I can't speak to all the generations but I'll tell you that my new G2 is considerably hotter than my old Sport 65. At least it feels that way when I try it on my hand.

DH


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

I would find it hard to believe that the new G2 are hotter than the old "gold" A-70s with a telescoping antenna. Most of the "bad reputations" about collars were started with this model.

I have heard that the low momentary nick on the G2 is actually over before the stimulus reaches the dogs brain.


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## cstallings (Jul 24, 2007)

Hey guys,

I'm new to this and I'm currently trying to CC my dog. I don't have a TT 500. I bought a TT sport G3 combo. It goes from 1/2 - 5 with half increments and has a low and medium for each intensity level. Is their a differnce in a 2 low and a 2 medium when it comes to the intensity level. Is one hotter than the other or does medium just last longer?

Carey


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

cstallings said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm new to this and I'm currently trying to CC my dog. I don't have a TT 500. I bought a TT sport G3 combo. It goes from 1/2 - 5 with half increments and has a low and medium for each intensity level. Is their a differnce in a 2 low and a 2 medium when it comes to the intensity level. Is one hotter than the other or does medium just last longer?
> 
> Carey


Continuous or momentary?


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## cstallings (Jul 24, 2007)

Sorry...I was thinking about momentary


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## jburn34 (May 12, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> Thanks for looking into this. It explains a lot of questions I had about my dog's reaction to the various intensity levels.


That explains a lot of questions I had about how it felt strapped to my arm. That continuous button wasn't fooling around...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

cstallings said:


> Sorry...I was thinking about momentary


Sorry Carey,

I just realized that there was another thread that lead into this one which I've bumped. The theory discussed here, which I am assuming to be correct is that in momentary, the stimulation is at the "High" level for that particular number setting. But the "duration" of the stimulation is longer as you go from "low" to "high".

So in Alec's figures above, the same "burn" is being delivered at all three settings only the amount of time the burn is delivered is increased from low, to medium, to high.

I never did get around to calling TriTronics. In my personal training, I"ve found that my collar is just like the 10 speed bike I had as a kid. I have a whole lot of "gears" that I never use!

I try to fall back to the thought of: "How do I know when the level of correction was enough?" Answer: "When the dog's behavior showed a change likely to be attributed to the preceeding correction" In other words adequate correction is _*not*_ gauged by a physical response, (twitch, yelp, etc.) _*as much as a behavioral response*_.


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## cstallings (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks Chris,

That's good information.

Carey


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

So reality is either one is damn fast. Use the lowest one that gets the desired behavioral change needed. Trust me on this, the dog will tell you if you used enough or too much. This thread is a bit mired in minutia...

/Paul


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I was researching TT e-collars and could not understand how the Pro 500xl intensity setting worked. So I am resurrecting a 1.5 yr old thread.

The collar is advertized as having 18 levels of continuous or momentary stim.

It is toggled to continuous or momentary.

There is a 6 position intensity knob and two buttons that provide low, med and high intensity.


Is the general consensus that with 18 total levels, a knob setting of 4 while pushing the low button would provide a stimulous of 10?

Does it work like this? 

*1*
L,M,H
1,2,3,

*2*
L,M,H
4,5,6,

*3*
L,M,H
7,8,9,

**4**
L,M,H
10,11,12,

**5**
L,M,H
13,14,15,

**6**
L,M,H
16,17,18,


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

You might ask Steve Snell at Gundog Supply. He put together a ecollar buying guide a couple of years ago based on what he sells. I talked to him a few times during that process and he acquired a very large amount of information. Even the shape of the wave on the stimulation can vary between collar manufactures, which was news to me. Apparently the shape of the wave (square wave like on a fuzz tone for a guitar, or a sine wave) affects how we percieve the shock. 

While I don't think he has the quantification of the various levels listed on line, he very well might know what they are. At the time, I was impressed with how much information he had.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

This thread is a combination of two different ones that were started quite a while ago.

Like /Paul wrote, it is mired in minutia! (and I'm responsible for it)

Today, I leave my Pro 500 on a setting of 4 nearly all the time and have it toggled to "nick" or momentary most of the time. I do like the flexibility of having both continous and momentary and I use both of those features. 

Although I'm much more of a "nicker" than a "continous or bumper" myself.

Chris


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Chris, 

Post # 25 is how I see it working. If you hold the collar up to your ear and press L,M,H you can hear the differences in the pulses. I think things might overlap in that a 3 low is higher than a 2 low and a 4 medium is higher than a 3 medium. I don't think it goes 1LMH 2LMH 3LMH. I think the highs are much, much higher than a Medium.

I guess you could try it on yourself. TT used to include a test light with the old collars, I think to practice your timing. If you have one you can readily see the difference in how bright the light gets. Awhile back there was a similar thread and someone was going to try and read the output with a meter, but I don't think they ever posted the results.

I too use the collar on continuous and make the nick myself. I've tried the nick and find it to be too quick for most uses. While I think the nick is good for CC and starting out and might be good with certain individuals, my dogs and others in the training group go through a nick like the collar isn't working. Of course for some things a nick might be fine, but in the heat of the moment it's hard to collect your thoughts and change settings if things go wrong. Easier to leave it on continuous and provide the nick yourself.

I told this in another thread, but I had a band aid on my button thumb while training one day. A Pro 500 needs you to push both buttons to give a "High." I was sure my collar wasn't working cause the dogs wouldn't stop and handle properly on a very big water blind towards the end. I typically use the collar set on #3, after some investigation I found my bandaged thumb was only pushing one button. Then I looked at the intensity with the test light. 

High is much higher than a medium of the same number IMO.

John Lash


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I was researching TT e-collars and could not understand how the Pro 500xl intensity setting worked. So I am resurrecting a 1.5 yr old thread.
> 
> The collar is advertized as having 18 levels of continuous or momentary stim.
> 
> ...


Hi Copterdoc,

I think it is fine to consider each of the number steps a unique setting. Like /Paul said, this thread is mired in minutia and I'm responsible for starting it.  

Look at Continuous Settings as Kevin Walker described on post 25. Each dial setting gives a power increase. Within that dial setting, each level from low to high, gives an increase in pulsation frequency.

Look at Momentary settings like this. Each Dial setting increases the power. Low gives a very brief single pulse. It is almost over as soon as it starts. I do not believe it is humanly possible to bump a button and get a repeatable continous "nick" that is this brief. Medium and then high give increasingly higher durations of the single pulse. I believe many trainers feel that they can accomplish this in a continuous mode, or with a collar that has no "nick" setting. I'd imagine that once they have their equipment dialed-in to their dog(s), they are probably right. Personally, I like having the precise measured "nicks" that the Pro 500 does for me and nearly all of my collar corrections are done in this mode.

While the Engineer in some, like me, would like to quantify the output in both modes at all of the myriads of settings, in the end what Alec wrote is true. What matters is not the setting on the collar, but how that dog next to you is responding. 

The tool is widely adjustable, which is a great thing. 

Chris


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hi Copterdoc,
> 
> Look at Continuous Settings as Kevin Walker described on post 25. Each dial setting gives a power increase. Within that dial setting, each level from low to high, gives an increase in pulsation frequency.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chris. That was an excellent explanation and summed everything up succinctly. Made sense...

Sue


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

bump===== I thought I'd bump this one.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Imagine what Rex could do with a dog these days.......


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I agree... I think we all - human and canine have our own thresholds of pain. But the best way to put ourselves in the shoes of another is to see how we personally would interpret it.
> 
> I've zapped myself all the way up to the highest level I've given my dog.... But I'm looking for a little "science" or a little engineering design knowledge, if anyone on the board has it.
> 
> Chris


Why not test the current with a multitester? That would tell you exactly what current is being delivered at each setting. What the dog feels is a different story.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I was searching for something else and came across this one.

I kinda miss these days...

I had a great training session today with great friends, including offspring of mine.

Be happy all and enjoy the day.

Chris


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks Chris. I too had a great day training with a friend. All turned out good except the weather. Learned lots. Love it when it is good. Like you said be happy folks.  
ps. enjoyed reading all this thread. But I have a Dogtra!!! Enjoy!


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

Having problem getting the new posting button to click on to make a new posting


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

*pretty easy*

Easy to see what Rex could do these days...Just follow Judy Aycock or Danny Farmer's success. 

Just a bit of input on my take on the intensity change....it is anything but linear....almost expeninial between a 1 and a 6 High.... With the way that the collar delivers the stimulus in micro second burst. It is more than possible to tap and use a nick almost the same.

JMHO


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Just wondering how many out there remember the lip clip....haaa.those were the early days.


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