# Secure crate suggestions for "escape artist" dog?



## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I don't know if all dog containment is psychological, or maybe if most of it is. I've noticed before that dogs that once get the idea of getting out often become persistent about trying to escape. A few years ago I trained one that got out of his kennel run by jumping against the gate until the drop latch swiveled around enough that the gate opened. After that he learned to open the latches on the dog trailer and dog truck from the inside, and he once escaped from a Vari-Kennel, I think by pushing on the plastic enough to unseat one of the pins in the door.

A couple of days ago we had a boarding dog do this, all in one night. My live-in assistant heard him working on the crate and came down to find him escaped. She put him in a kennel run, and I found him in the yard in the morning. That's 9 gauge wire. I have not seen a dog bend up a stretcher bar like that before. In fact I've been in the habit of thinking our 9 gauge chain link can hold any dog.


















On the Vari-kennel, it looks like he broke the weld on one of the wires behind the latch assembly, bent it inward about 90 degrees, and went to work on the latch through the small opening this made. He disassembled the latch and managed to extract the upper rod. The lower rod dropped down and was still engaged at the bottom, but he was able to push his way out.

On the kennel gate, I think he pulled and tugged on the wire. Whether he bent the stretcher by pushing his way through a small gap, or by working on it with his teeth, I'm not sure.

So...I've been looking at getting a more secure crate for when this dog comes back. I've always thought that the Kennel-Aire professional model was supposed to be good, but I think he may need more. McKee-Airborne were supposed to be the best. There's an outfit called Tejas that appears to have inherited the McKee concept, and Zinger crates also look good. In fact I like the Zinger door design better. 

These are seriously expensive crates, though. Has anybody used them (or the Kennel-Aire) on a seriously destructive, escape-minded dog? Any other good containment ideas? I know a chain arrangement as used for Pit bulls would likely work, but wouldn't make the best impression at the kennel.

Amy Dahl


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## Vertigo (Sep 5, 2006)

If you are just looking for a crate/containment for boarding dogs, take a look at this crate. http://homeandkennel.petedge.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=45512 Not the cheapest, but will work on tough dogs. The other option is to look at getting one or two of the stainless cage units that bank together like what is used in a vet office. http://homeandkennel.petedge.com/assets/product_images/styles/medium/ZW179_230X230.JPG


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

That is one sweet cage.

A more economical alternative may be to look into someone who makes hog traps. I could buy a hog trap here for about 150 bucks and put some caribeeners on the door to reinforce and presto...unexscapable dog kennel.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

That is a nice cage. Have you seen one up close? From the photos, I can't see anything that would prevent a dog from reaching through the bars to slide the latches back.

Carabiners on the doors--worthwhile idea.

Amy Dahl


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

We keep maybe 1-3 dogs a year that have this behavior. Typically it's related to other issues, too, but you know that...

We've found our best bet is to crate them where we're nearby. So they stay in some part of the house where we are close enough to correct them IF needed. For some, they might wear a collar (with supervision) to correct the behavior. So much of this depends on the dog as far as how we approach it. 

But the crate and kennel escape stuff can be so dangerous. I have only ever had one dog, MANY years ago, that damaged 9 gauge. If I boarded a dog that would do that now, I wouldn't keep the dog unless they put it in training because there is a SERIOUS problem if a dog is tearing up 9 gauge.

I absolutely agree that once they do it, it becomes some sort of bizarre OCD-type habit. I have one that does the latch lifting and I swear she just does it to do it.

I would NOT go investing a bunch of money in expensive crates for these rare dogs. I would talk to the owners about investing a few bucks in training, even if it's just for the time the dog is there. Then you throw a collar on the dog - your choice of conditioning or just using it as an aversive -- and use it to work on the destructive behavior IF it's suitable and then you do some lessons with it otherwise.

Of the dogs that were destructive coming into training (whether it was just chewing up bedding all the way through the really bad ones), very rarely does that behavior not entirely go away with some good training (and exercise).

-K


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Duct tape! The guy I train with has a dog that will destroy any run just like that. He finally ended up using the ecollar every time she would bite the fence. I know that won't help since it is only a boarder once in a while unless you have someone to stay up all night and watch him. Muzzle him if he is using his teeth.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Actually we are planning to try the pharmaceutical approach in addition to a more secure crate. The dog most often comes to stay for the day when his elderly owner has a medical procedure. He is OK during the day when there is someone around. He has what the owners call separation anxiety, and will go to work on his containment when left alone. I think once in the past we crated him overnight and he merely shredded the fleece mat that was in the crate. Thinking that wasn't safe, I specified "no bedding" this time. Obviously he is also at risk of injury when he puts forth extreme effort to break out, as well.

So the owners have used Xanax on him in the past, and we are planning to try that in addition to a sturdier crate. Prescribed by his vet, of course. 

Kristie, I respect your suggestions although there is more I would need to know before deciding if training is realistic. I know little about separation anxiety. I don't know who made the diagnosis, nor how it is affected by aversive training with the ecollar. I have heard claims that it can be cured, but think that is supposed to be done by the dog owner, not the kennel owner.

This particular dog is high stress at the best of times. I've worked to make him more comfortable around the kennel, but he's not what I consider a great candidate for training. He's a Golden-Chow mix, btw. Smart, determined, and definitely not one I would assume to be bite-proof.

Amy Dahl


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## Crystal C. (Sep 26, 2008)

I have a good friend who had a lab exactly like this one. She had tried everything. The only thing that worked for this dog was to drill holes in the frame outside the vari kennel door and she put about 4 rows of rebar and screwed them so they were secure. When the dog would try to push the door out it was secure by the rebar.


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## Blackstone (Feb 25, 2009)

If the dog's behavior is related to separation anxiety, using an e-collar is not a good idea, and may only add to the dog's anxiety. Training probably isn't the answer either, unless you can total exhaust the dog with exercise each evening before it is put in the kennel. If you lock a dog with separation anxiety in a crate they can't get out of, they will sometimes batter their muzzle against the door trying to escape until they bleed. Separation anxiety can often be cured, but it takes time and an understanding of techniques that work. It doesn't sound like you have the time to undertake such an endeavor. If I were you, would opt for the Xanax solution when the dog is staying with you.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

I had a dog like that.

She broke out just to break out. 

She was scarred and all her teeth broken.

So.....I let her loose in the yard.

She never broke out to go anywhere (normally would find her on the front step.)

She just could not handle being confined. So I confined her to a large back yard and she was happy. Never tried to get out.

WRL


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## wetland_retrievers (Jul 22, 2005)

As mentioned earlier their are other underlying issues at hand. Mostly developed when this dog was young. Most owners do so inadvertently not knowing or understanding dog social behavior. These dogs get into a routine or program their minds into a "rut". Anything outside of the "norm" sets them off. These dogs simply lack in leadership "training" on how to deal with these out of the norm situations.

These dogs do take considerable time and supervision to correct the behaviors exhibited. They need to be in and out of crates on short rotating basis. Then gradually build for extended periods of time. Up to a week for some, longer for others. There mind needs to be redirected towards something more constructive or to something that will calm the dog.

Simply putting them in a crate or having the one they can't escape from doesn't fix the problem. The anxiety is still there. Destroying the kennel is the dogs way of letting out the frustration. Keep in mind that the next time you let this dog out of this escape proof kennel that it is already at the maximum anxiety level. Making it's behavior unpredictable.

Now what I do during the night...... I do along the lines of what WRL suggest. I place them with calmer personality dogs in the same yard. A fenced yard that has open access to kennels or a doggy door to the kennel building. A fenced yard and socializing with other dogs does wonders.
Now if this dog has aggressive tendencies. Well that needs to be addressed totally different. Aggressive dogs are strictly one on one with the trainer at all times until the dog can be taught proper obedience and interaction in varying situations. Primarily the situations that trigger the response.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

Blackstone said:


> If the dog's behavior is related to separation anxiety, using an e-collar is not a good idea, and may only add to the dog's anxiety. Training probably isn't the answer either, unless you can total exhaust the dog with exercise each evening before it is put in the kennel. If you lock a dog with separation anxiety in a crate they can't get out of, they will sometimes batter their muzzle against the door trying to escape until they bleed. Separation anxiety can often be cured, but it takes time and an understanding of techniques that work. It doesn't sound like you have the time to undertake such an endeavor. If I were you, would opt for the Xanax solution when the dog is staying with you.


The word "anxiety" is a huge misnomer. The perception is that the dog is frightened, worried, nervous. And there ARE dogs like this, but they are quite rare. More typically, the dog with "separation anxiety" (as a lot of trainers like to fall back to) is typically a spoiled rotten dog with no sense of boundaries, lack of socialization and is quite frequently out of control.

Training absolutely does work with almost all dogs and the collar as an aversive absolutely does work with most dogs. But, as I indicated, it needs to be done so carefully. IF the dog is TRULY fearful -- which IS VERY RARE, then the collar is not a wise choice. But this is so very rare.

Most dogs are just obnoxious when they are exhibiting this behavior. They are typically the same dogs that barge through doors, bark uncontrollably, drag their owners around on the leash and they can't play with other dogs because they have absolutely no manners.

We deal with this every day here. And we frequently recommend training to our out-of-control boarders and it's absolutely a win-win ESPECIALLY for an elderly client IF they can afford it and if you feel you can help them. I'm going to guess that this dog has other behavior issues and the owner may have trouble handling him. And I may be wrong, but this is my guess...

We work a LOT with "separation anxiety" -- I'm going to come up with a new word for it!!! And we fix it 99.99% of the time.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I don't think the dog I'm dealing with fits the profile you describe. He does show signs of fearfulness, lacks adaptability, but is generally cooperative and easy to manage, for me and for the elderly owners, except that apparently when he is left alone he shows this highly-driven destructive and escapist behavior.

I am very interested in your experience with "separation anxiety," though.

FWIW, putting him in a yard unsupervised with or without other dogs is not an option because it is contrary to our licensing standards.

Amy Dahl


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2009)

afdahl said:


> I don't think the dog I'm dealing with fits the profile you describe. He does show signs of fearfulness, lacks adaptability, but is generally cooperative and easy to manage, for me and for the elderly owners, except that apparently when he is left alone he shows this highly-driven destructive and escapist behavior.
> 
> I am very interested in your experience with "separation anxiety," though.
> 
> ...


Wow, are you not allowed to let dogs play together according to your licensing?

I hope you figure out a way to work it out for him; it's sad that it's that stressful for him (or any other dog! I feel badly when dogs can't relax). I'd try to bring him in the house with you (crated) if it's something you and John are willing to do...

-K


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

If they're in a yard, they have to be supervised, so I couldn't leave a dog in a yard overnight. Unless someone stayed up to watch. If there are dogs from different households together, we have to have signed permission from all of the owners. 

The boarding kennel is across town, so it's logistically difficult to take him in with us at night. My assistant could do it, but she chose not to...and she is moving out (know anybody that would be a good live-in kennel assistant?). I have told the owners, by the way, that I don't feel I can offer the safety and security I would like to, but if they want me to continue to care for him, I will show them the crate I get and discuss his plan of care with them. It's going to include Xanax; I've never been comfortable giving dogs drugs, but the more experience I get, the more open I am to believing that it might be helpful in some cases.

Amy Dahl


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Join Date: Jul 2004
> Location: North Carolina
> Posts: 544
> 
> ...


I know I'm not Kristie but I have done alot of work with seperation issues,,from tearing up enclosures to biting owners who try to leave the house.

It is my personal belief and through experimentation and obsevation that dogs with these issues lack certain peramiters . They gravitate to do as they please without interuption,,also attemps by the owners to stop some behaviors actually ends up throwing fuel on the fire.

They do not have to neccesarily have other obnoxious behaviors which need to be adressed when viewed from the surface. But a closer look reveals an attempt to minipulate however subtile.

The bottom line is if a dogs posisition is to do as it wishes it becomes his job to do as he wishes.
Leaders dont hang back at the fort and let subordinates take charge of the hunt they accept who they choose to come along. The subordinates dont wine and cry about it.
The leaders are the ones who give that look to others to stay behind to maby care for the pups and this often includes the Alpha bitch who will often assign the milking duties to a wet bitch.
leaders typically dont stay behind,,, thats the lesser ranking dogs responsability

Leaders lead and it can be only in certain contexts. You can have a very well trained dog who's tenmperament alows it to rule the bed for example or the hallway or whatever. And he may very subordinate in other contexts.

from my experience dealing with this it is a leadership problem.
And the cure is to develope respect in the dog,,,by running it through a collar conditioning program of down,here and no.
These are the 3 basic control commands 
You can start by using alittle positive to teach what words mean,,the correct then force.
Often these dogs dont like to go into a down,,so be careful if your face has to be close to his with continous stim. Have him excepting LL first.
Start with low level first,,but end up being able top get a good continous stim before your done. Occasionally dogs who have never been agg. before may get a little testy until you become the winner. Fairness and temperance is required
If there is a hole in the force the owner will step in it.
Force in the kennel if you have to. I always start this whole processwith mental walking where focus on the handler without compultion is a must. The dog must watch you with a loose leach. Couple walks per day to mentaly break down dog.

If done right you will witness right before your very eyes a relaxed unanxious dog. 
Always build back up after the force with correct timing of positive R relative to the dogs posture. Careful not to PR with any posture not conducive with rebound. figure out a way to pick up his attitude

Then you must teach the owners to maintain what you did.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2009)

afdahl said:


> If they're in a yard, they have to be supervised, so I couldn't leave a dog in a yard overnight. Unless someone stayed up to watch. If there are dogs from different households together, we have to have signed permission from all of the owners.
> 
> The boarding kennel is across town, so it's logistically difficult to take him in with us at night. My assistant could do it, but she chose not to...and she is moving out (know anybody that would be a good live-in kennel assistant?). I have told the owners, by the way, that I don't feel I can offer the safety and security I would like to, but if they want me to continue to care for him, I will show them the crate I get and discuss his plan of care with them. It's going to include Xanax; I've never been comfortable giving dogs drugs, but the more experience I get, the more open I am to believing that it might be helpful in some cases.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Ahhh, got it. I didn't realize your kennels weren't near your home; sorry!

There are some dogs for whom "our" situations, whatever they may be, are not suitable. I had someone call me with a 2 ounce chihuahua (exaggeration) that had health issues and had to be tended to five times a day. I told her I just didn't feel comfortable and didn't think we were in a position to commit to that. The first thing I visualized was a dead chihuahua because I went 30 mins too long training a dog or something... Not a good thought.

We carry enough risk that it's not worth taking on things that are clearly off the wall... 

In your situation, I'd go for the meds, too and play it safe.

-K


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