# started dog prices



## dckdwg82 (Feb 5, 2014)

Ive been seeing alot of different pricing for started dogs that are about at the same level. So if you have a FCxMH thats been trained up to TT, what makes you determine the price. Ive seen them go from 1500 all the way up to 4500. Is this just how bad they want to get rid of the dog or a personal thing?


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Bloodlines, training, and what the market will bear. Not all bloodlines are equal, not all training is equal, and then, the bottom line is what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller willing to accept an offer.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Everyone is different but I price my started dogs based on current skill set. Take the average number of months that it would take to get a dog to that level from six months of age. That way you are basically paying the same amount as you would if you bought a puppy and sent them to training. That does not factor in all the time spent raising them from a puppy or feed and other care during that time so in most cases you are coming out ahead. The problem is that people have different definitions of what started, seasoned, and finished means. I like to use the written standards set forth by the AKC and UKC for a dog of that level. That way there is a defensible and measurable standard with which to judge the dog against.


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## Dan Garner (Jan 20, 2012)

Most FcxMH pups sell for $1000 to $1500 at 8 weeks and to get a dog trained correctly to TT you will have most likely a year of training in them if not more. The question is if it was all done correctly without any holes in there training also how good the dog is marking how much go they have ,training attitude etc.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

dckdwg82 said:


> Ive been seeing alot of different pricing for started dogs that are about at the same level. So if you have a FCxMH thats been trained up to TT, what makes you determine the price. Ive seen them go from 1500 all the way up to 4500. Is this just how bad they want to get rid of the dog or a personal thing?


 Regardless of what the ad says, I believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out.

The reason that the dog is being washed out, factors into the price at least as much as pedigree. 
Once you know (or think you know) how good (or bad) of a dog that you have, pedigree only matters for breeding.

Find out why the dog is being sold. 
That isn't the same thing as asking the seller why the dog is being sold.

You need to FIND OUT why the dog is being sold.

The Cops don't take the word of the suspect as Gospel. 
They do ask them questions, but that's just part of the investigation to find out the truth.

There are plenty of GREAT deals on started dogs. 

You can easily get the best dog of your entire lifetime, for a fraction of what you would have paid to train and raise that dog from a puppy, to the point that it's at when you buy it.

The seller almost always takes a monumental loss.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> Regardless of what the ad says, I believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out.
> 
> The reason that the dog is being washed out, factors into the price at least as much as pedigree.
> Once you know (or think you know) how good (or bad) of a dog that you have, pedigree only matters for breeding.
> ...


I agree with most of what you have said, but not this: "believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out."

There are a lot of reasons that people sell started dogs.
1) Some prefer working with young dogs, and then selling them to help finance their hobby.
2) To put a young dog into someone else's hands and watch it become a player is a point of pride.
3) Some prefer the training over competing.
4)Young dogs generally don't require the time and resources that All-Age dogs will. 1 trainer with one helper can accomplish lot.
5) Some people see an opportunity to finance other priorities in life by doing something they enjoy.
6) Generally speaking, the more dogs you can put your hands on, the better trainer/ handler you can become.

Anyone care to add to this list?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

If the dog isn't a washout, it wouldn't be for sale.

And it certainly wouldn't be advertized for sale.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

People also sell dogs because of life situations--divorce, new baby, moving where they can't keep the dog, etc.

Meredith


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> If the dog isn't a washout, it wouldn't be for sale.
> 
> And it certainly wouldn't be advertized for sale.


I'm not sure if you're kidding or just clueless. I think Scott described it pretty well, there are plenty of reasons to sell a dog besides it being a washout.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> If the dog isn't a washout, it wouldn't be for sale.
> 
> And it certainly wouldn't be advertized for sale.


Epic fail.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Scott Adams said:


> I agree with most of what you have said, but not this: "believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out."
> 
> There are a lot of reasons that people sell started dogs.
> 1) Some prefer working with young dogs, and then selling them to help finance their hobby.
> ...


The only other things I would add to this list are

Financial hardship
Divorce

Just because someone is selling a dog doesn't mean it's what they really want to do.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Bruce MacPherson said:


> I'm not sure if you're kidding or just clueless. I think Scott described it pretty well, there are plenty of reasons to sell a dog besides it being a washout.


Think about it a second.

What is the opposite of washing out a dog?


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

The opposite of washing a dog out, is contributing to its success. Why would anyone put their money into a washout, and then enter it into AKC events?
What don't you understand?


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## dckdwg82 (Feb 5, 2014)

I dont think so either. Ive had a few myself I sold because they have had more potential to be successful being with someone else. I have seen people also train and buy pups just to sell them past transition because they love training young dogs. Thats there thing.


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## dckdwg82 (Feb 5, 2014)

Marissa E. said:


> The only other things I would add to this list are
> 
> Financial hardship
> Divorce
> ...


 yes and work requirements. Dont have enough time and its not fair to the pup


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> If the dog isn't a washout, it wouldn't be for sale.
> 
> And it certainly wouldn't be advertized for sale.


Jeeze, did you not even read Scott's reasoned response?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> Regardless of what the ad says, I believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out.



Way off Base there


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Marissa E. said:


> The only other things I would add to this list are
> 
> Financial hardship
> Divorce
> ...



I sold one that required a very very very high standard and honestly I grew tired of the constant battle, loved the dog to death but it was taking all the fun out of training and no he wasn't a wash out ( at the time)..


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

I think people have differences in what they consider a washout. Myself a washout can be a dog who has shown traits that are undesirable to the trainer. Or a dog that may need more time to be trained to a desired level than the trainer has or is willing to put in. As others have pointed dog can be washed out for financial reasons as well. Lack of time and money could definitely be the reason, something we all know training a dog takes a lot of. Just because a dog is a washout with one trainer doesn't mean that same dog wont become a superstar with a different trainer.

To the OP, think breeding plays a lot a into pricing, and the reputation of the trainer producing well trained dogs. Doesn't mean that you wont find a lot of high priced dogs with less desirable pedigrees being advertised also, that have received questionable training. The big thing is do your research before buying the dog. Figure out what your willing to pay, what kind of bloodlines you are looking for and gather a list of trainers you know are producing well trained dogs and go from there. Like any dog purchase don't be in a hurry, take the time and wait for a good dog that fits your needs if you have to. The purchase price of the dog is drop in the bucket compared to what you will spend through out its lifetime in care and training bills.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

dckdwg82 said:


> Ive been seeing alot of different pricing for started dogs that are about at the same level.
> 
> Ive seen them go from 1500 all the way up to 4500. Is this just how bad they want to get rid of the dog or a personal thing?


1. Not all dogs are created equal.

2. A buyer evaluating two dog advertised as being trained to the same level may disagree with those making the claim.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> If the dog isn't a washout, it wouldn't be for sale.
> 
> And it certainly wouldn't be advertized for sale.


I thought you wasn't allowed to play on the computer after you been drinking


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Scott Adams said:


> I agree with most of what you have said, but not this: "believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out."
> 
> There are a lot of reasons that people sell started dogs.
> 1) Some prefer working with young dogs, and then selling them to help finance their hobby.
> ...


Pretty well sums it up in my book. Done all of the above. There is a market out there for field trial prospects too, that to build a reputation you have to be willing to sell the best dog you have ever owned. If you are not willing to do that then perhaps you shouldn't be selling dogs. A started dog has many definitions, one could be selling dogs for their potential or promise of a dog in the venue you are selling. To some folks a started dog among the Pro ranks could be a dog on the National Derby List, QAA and not derbied out. So you are buying the proof of perhaps the pudding down the road. A washout could be about anything.
Personal knowledge of a "washout young trial dog" for about $2500. some folks picked up, put it with a pro from a experienced amateur, went on to have over 100 all-age points titled both ways and competed in many nationals. Conversely a dog out of a very prominent pro field trialer camp's client was told not to buy the 20 month old dog.Price was dropped in half, Hunt Test Pro bought the dog and she went on to be a finalist in 6 Master Nationals. Was she a washout, I didn't think so, but, she went on to do great things in the AKC hunt test game. Found out later there was a conflict with the buyer, client and trainer.


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## tbro (Mar 30, 2011)

shawninthesticks said:


> I thought you wasn't allowed to play on the computer after you been drinking


That's funny right there!


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## Laird's Retrievers (Apr 20, 2007)

I have a young dog now I am planning to sell. She is 16 months old. Out of Nafc and a canadian national finalist Who has produced qual. all age dogs. I have three young dogs and an All age bitch that went nine series in the recent national. I have to reduce number so I talked to my trainers and we picked the two you dogs that seem like they are doing the best and that we can evaluate at this time. Sophie is low girl on the stick. She has been with Kevin Cheff for 10 months doing pretty well he likes her but she is low girl so my wife and I are selling. 

Is she a washout. Nope, could go on and do great things it seems she is maturing a little slower than the other so we made the decision. So the OP asked how we priced. I have 10 months of pro training. 900 a month plus all other costs so I say I have 11k invested plus puppy cost although I bred her. I am asking 5k but has to be the correct home. 

I want to move her within the next month reduce my training bill so we figured 5k was a good number. 

So, you know exactly how we came up with price. To me she is not a washout. I would keep if I didn't have two other young dogs plus an all-age who just turned on and won several opens. We planned on retiring her but not now, so I must sell a young dog. 

There ya go. Hope that helped folks understand that all dogs being sold are not all washouts and how people come up with their price. 


Written on phone so sorry. One post just upset me with his absurd comments. 


Cheers 

Chris. 407-721-0771


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Chris, your explanation is a great example, that people who sell started dogs, are not getting rich from it. Even if the cost of Pro training is not factored in, it is far and away the exception that someone will profit on selling young dogs, although it does happen. The motivations to sell are personal and different from dog to dog and owner to owner. 
Buyer still needs to beware, but for those with the shekels, it may be a less costly route, to buy started dogs.


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## DEN/TRU/CRU (May 29, 2007)

I have a problem following this thread, I have a boy that is QAA and a MH, but since his true love is huntig (so is mine) I told my Pro to run him on a few hunt test set ups while training for F/T since I could see he was getting down on F/T training I asked that they run him on a few H/T set ups to keep his attitude up. After 3 weeks H/T training instead of F/T training he ran 7 masters and finished 6 in a row for his MH and then successfully completed the Master National. Is this a wash out? Hopefully we will have success this year in both veniews. It depends on your goals, are you in it for you or for your dog? Our dogs dont have egos, we do, go for where heart sends you.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I pretty much do #1 in Scott's post 3 or 4 times a yr. When I buy a pup at 7 weeks it's already being groomed to sell as a started dog. Anyone ever washed out a 7 week old pup? lol




Criquetpas said:


> Pretty well sums it up in my book. Done all of the above. There is a market out there for field trial prospects too, that to build a reputation you have to be willing to sell the best dog you have ever owned. If you are not willing to do that then perhaps you shouldn't be selling dogs. A started dog has many definitions, one could be selling dogs for their potential or promise of a dog in the venue you are selling. To some folks a started dog among the Pro ranks could be a dog on the National Derby List, QAA and not derbied out. So you are buying the proof of perhaps the pudding down the road. A washout could be about anything.
> Personal knowledge of a "washout young trial dog" for about $2500. some folks picked up, put it with a pro from a experienced amateur, went on to have over 100 all-age points titled both ways and competed in many nationals. Conversely a dog out of a very prominent pro field trialer camp's client was told not to buy the 20 month old dog.Price was dropped in half, Hunt Test Pro bought the dog and she went on to be a finalist in 6 Master Nationals. Was she a washout, I didn't think so, but, she went on to do great things in the AKC hunt test game. Found out later there was a conflict with the buyer, client and trainer.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Laird's Retrievers said:


> I have a young dog now I am planning to sell. She is 16 months old. Out of Nafc and a canadian national finalist Who has produced qual. all age dogs. I have three young dogs and an All age bitch that went nine series in the recent national. I have to reduce number so I talked to my trainers and we picked the two you dogs that seem like they are doing the best and that we can evaluate at this time. Sophie is low girl on the stick. She has been with Kevin Cheff for 10 months doing pretty well he likes her but she is low girl so my wife and I are selling.
> 
> Is she a washout. Nope, could go on and do great things it seems she is maturing a little slower than the other so we made the decision. So the OP asked how we priced. I have 10 months of pro training. 900 a month plus all other costs so I say I have 11k invested plus puppy cost although I bred her. I am asking 5k but has to be the correct home.
> 
> ...


I recently did the same thing with a 14 month BLM. He was low man on the stick. He was with Jim Van Engen and then Jason Baker.
I had about 12K in him and sold him for $5K. I have a four year old all age BLF that is starting to turn on and a 5 month BLF that will 
go to Jason in a couple months. Trying to keep my pro training bill to 2 dogs per month.

The young man that bought the BLM, plans to run him in some derby, SRS and maybe AKC hunt tests.
He is tickled to death, and got a really nice dog for a really nice price!!!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Regardless of what the ad says, I believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out.


> That's a pretty ignorant thing to say,,and does not apply to every one.
> Pete


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Sometimes, people sell dogs because their personalities don't click. I have seen that happen numerous times. The new owner goes on and takes them to being a field champion or whatever. It's not all because they are truly a "wash out."


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> If the dog isn't a washout, it wouldn't be for sale.
> 
> And it certainly wouldn't be advertized for sale.



I think you're wrong for the reasons Scott posted. I also think you have no interest in discussion, so I'll leave it at that.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> Sometimes, people sell dogs because their personalities don't click. I have seen that happen numerous times. The new owner goes on and takes them to being a field champion or whatever. It's not all because they are truly a "wash out."


Howard sold Pricey for that very reason. She went on to what? 200 all age points?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Jeeze, did you not even read Scott's reasoned response?


Take a look at his signature. It will all become clear.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> Sometimes, people sell dogs because their personalities don't click. I have seen that happen numerous times. The new owner goes on and takes them to being a field champion or whatever. It's not all because they are truly a "wash out."


That is a very good point. There are folks with the means to have lots of dogs in FT training that simply have their personal preferences for what they like in a dog and wash very good dogs that don't meet their particular likes. Those are great dogs to get, but usually you need an in with the pro.

They "why are you selling" question, followed by the "why is the pro letting it go from the truck instead of placing with another client?" are the toughest questions to get sorted out for average folks--especially if you are looking for a FT prospect. Still, there are lots of dogs that are sold for valid reasons other than they can't do the work. Sure, there are some who are sold as not washouts which are, although some of them do very well afterwards.

As to the original poster's question. How the price is determined is all over the map. Largely it is the market. A young dog that is a FT prospect is going to go for more than one that is more of a HT dog. I can say that I have seen many for sale for well over your upper limit--and even bought one.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm not sure I buy into even asking someone "why are you selling". To me it's none of my business really. I have to be able to do enough evaluation of the dog to understand it's capabilities, personality and whether or not I'm getting a fair price, that's all. 

What I would want to do is actually work with the dog and be able to set up some training scenarios to see how the dog reacted. It's tough to buy one from long distance that way, but I think it's the due diligence that really needs to be done.

Let's face it... unless they're coming from a very big name trainer, you have no idea how solid their training is so whether you're getting a diamond in the rough or a hunk of pine is really hard to tell. The best you can do is see the dog work and get your hands on it yourself, if possible... Even coming from a big name "reputable" trainer you could get shoddy training. They don't all train every dog themselves.

I would like to give a deposit and have the dog to work with for 30 days ultimately. In that case an honest seller is more important than a good dog.

Having dealt with a few dozen supposedly "started" dogs that came with a huge variety of issues, ranging from lack of drive to gaping holes in training... My viewpoint is definitely one of "show me the dog".


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

It seems that what we have among various posters here is a failure to communicate.

The reason , in my estimation, is the lack of a universally understood and accepted definition of what the terms "a wash out" and and being "washed out" mean in the context of the field retriever games

Can a dog be "washed out' without being a "wash out";-) it is obvious by some posted "went on to" examples that the answer is yes, conversely the opposite is also true. 

So, you see the problem/(?), it is a matter semantics.

john


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'm not sure I buy into even asking someone "why are you selling". To me it's none of my business really. I have to be able to do enough evaluation of the dog to understand it's capabilities, personality and whether or not I'm getting a fair price, that's all.
> 
> What I would want to do is actually work with the dog and be able to set up some training scenarios to see how the dog reacted. It's tough to buy one from long distance that way, but I think it's the due diligence that really needs to be done.
> 
> ...


I agree that you should evaluate the dog or have someone you trust do so, unless of course you already know the dog well.

The ones coming from the big name trainers are the ones that always worry me, though. A big name trainer doesn't keep the big name by letting talented dogs go to other trucks on a regular basis. All the ones I know have clients that can buy just about any dog if the pro says so and probably already know well the other dogs on the truck from training. So, unless you are connected with said big name trainer, keep your eyes wide open and definitely evaluate a dog coming off a pro's truck just as much as the guy who likes to train young dogs.

I ultimately enlisted some pros I know well to help me search--telling them to find a dog they wouldn't mind having on their truck is helpful.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

ted shih said:


> take a look at his signature. It will all become clear.




touche!!!!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm seeing a lot of rationalization, vs reasoning.
The reason(s) that a seller has for washing out a dog are individual, and personal.

The reasons for selling don't make the difference in whether the dog is being washed out or not.

There's a lot of semantics being thrown around in this thread. 
And a lot of hostility with no basis.


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## Jim Spagna (Apr 21, 2008)

golfandhunter said:


> I recently did the same thing with a 14 month BLM. He was low man on the stick. He was with Jim Van Engen and then Jason Baker.
> I had about 12K in him and sold him for $5K. I have a four year old all age BLF that is starting to turn on and a 5 month BLF that will
> go to Jason in a couple months. Trying to keep my pro training bill to 2 dogs per month.
> 
> ...



I CERTAINLY don't want to get tangled up in this thread but I have to ask....How do you get $12K in a 14 month old dog?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Spag said:


> I CERTAINLY don't want to get tangled up in this thread but I have to ask....How do you get $12K in a 14 month old dog?


Pretty easy, actually, if one is looking at the high end of the dog games. 

Let's say a well-bred pup at $2000. Add nine months of training at $1000 brings it to $11,000, add vet expenses of a couple hundred and the five bags of dog food it cost before the pup went off for training at $45 apiece. Almost 12k right there, and that doesn't include everything.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I'm seeing a lot of rationalization, vs reasoning.
> The reason(s) that a seller has for washing out a dog are individual, and personal.
> 
> The reasons for selling don't make the difference in whether the dog is being washed out or not.
> ...


I wouldn't call it hostility. It's just disagreeing with your statement, and offering an explanation to the differant opinion.
You haven't really explained why you believe that any started dog is considered a washout. Why don't you?
Washout implies failure. Giving up. Your statement was too broad.


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## David Eaton (Feb 24, 2005)

One man's trash is another man's treasure.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I'm seeing a lot of rationalization, vs reasoning.
> The reason(s) that a seller has for washing out a dog are individual, and personal.
> 
> The reasons for selling don't make the difference in whether the dog is being washed out or not.
> ...



Let's test your argument out. You originally wrote:



copterdoc said:


> Regardless of what the ad says, I believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out.



So, you would apparently have us believe that as a matter of SEMANTICS that what you really meant when you wrote "I believe that ANY dog being advertised to be sold is being washed out" is this *"I believe that any dog being advertised to be sold is being sold for personal and individual reasons."*

You'll excuse me if I don't accept your backtracking efforts. Why not just admit you made a mistake?


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## dckdwg82 (Feb 5, 2014)

And If I'm not mistaken wasn't lean mac even sold once or twice? that's one hell of a wash out. I don't know a lot of the history with some of the great ones but I bet their is a ton of fc/afc that where sold and how do you consider them a wash out.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> Why not just admit you made a mistake?


while it has been a harsh winter for all, I do not think hell froze over yet
wonder if all the folks with a dog name starting with beaverdam, 
think they bought a washout or a solid started dog???


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> ...Why not just admit you made a mistake?


 Oh, I certainly made a mistake alright.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Lottie got sold too didn't she?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

And my buddy just sold Juice. 

Copterdoc, there is no hostility here at all. How is Juice a "washout"?
What does "washout" mean?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

You get more money for potential than reality. Young dogs I wouldn't consider a washout. 

/Paul


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> And my buddy just sold Juice.
> 
> Copterdoc, there is no hostility here at all. How is Juice a "washout"?


 Did he have to post an ad?


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Think about it a second.
> 
> What is the opposite of washing out a dog?


Buying A Dog.

Next Question?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> ....What does "washout" mean?


 It could mean a number of things.
Maybe, it's an inside dog, and it's farts are peeling the paint off the walls.

If you keep your dogs outside, or have your interior walls painted with Sherwin Williams fart resistant paint, that dog could be just what you are looking for. At a bargain price to boot.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Lottie got sold too didn't she?


A couple of times. 

But why are you guys poking a skunk with a stick?


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Pretty easy, actually, if one is looking at the high end of the dog games.
> 
> Let's say a well-bred pup at $2000. Add nine months of training at $1000 brings it to $11,000, add vet expenses of a couple hundred and the five bags of dog food it cost before the pup went off for training at $45 apiece. Almost 12k right there, and that doesn't include everything.


Thanks Sharon, you hit the nail on the head.
Spag, that 12K doesn't include any of my time or expenses related to going to train with the pro and my pup.(motel,vehicle exp,gas,food).
It takes alot of CHEESE and or time to try and play the Field Trial game at the highest level.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Because the dog is not good enough in FT does not mean the dog is a complete wash out. Only at the game you want to play is the dog not suitable. But probably a good dog. 

And there are always extenuating circumstances or reasons a person has to sell their dog. That is personal. 

I don't think the term washout applies and I think Copter dog is fishing for ....!! IMO


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

"What we have here is a failure to comunicate" for which concluding the breakdown was caused Semantics may not cover it compleatly, perhaps it's a deficit in their Pragmatic Language Skills Inventory ........;-)

http://www.thelearningclinic.org/PDF/PragmaticSkillsInstandForm.pdf

Orrrrrrrrr, it could just be that some say potato while others say_ potato_

john


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

A dog that sells for 6 figures is definitely not a washout.

What about 5 figures? If I sell a dog for $20k, is it a washout? Would it make a difference if the dog was 4 versus, say 1.5 years old?

Does it really make a difference whether I advertise the dog or not? I get Copterdoc's point that many good dogs don't sell via ads, but if I have a dog and want to get the best possible price, shouldn't I get an ad? Does that really reflect on the dog?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> A dog that sells for 6 figures is definitely not a washout.
> 
> What about 5 figures? If I sell a dog for $20k, is it a washout? Would it make a difference if the dog was 4 versus, say 1.5 years old?
> 
> Does it really make a difference whether I advertise the dog or not? I get Copterdoc's point that many good dogs don't sell via ads, but if I have a dog and want to get the best possible price, shouldn't I get an ad? Does that really reflect on the dog?



Penn

Do you really think that there is a point other than stirring the pot? 

Ted


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> I get Copterdoc's point that many good dogs don't sell via ads, but if I have a dog and want to get the best possible price, shouldn't I get an ad? Does that really reflect on the dog?


His cynical point is that the cream of the crop are sold under the table, with handshake deals and money exchanged in brown paper bags that the average Joe just doesn't know about, and a dog that would never be offered to him. 



Now, back to your regularly scheduled poking of the skunk.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> His cynical point is that the cream of the crop are sold under the table, with handshake deals and money exchanged in brown paper bags that the average Joe just doesn't know about, and a dog that would never be offered to him.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, back to your regularly scheduled poking of the skunk.


Most folks aren't aware of the deals that are made. It becomes he said, that she said that they said and on and on. Most folks that sell dogs at high prices don't discus it as it is a private transaction among the seller and the buyer. I like the poking the skunk! still laughing Susan made my day.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Some breeders will not sell to amateurs or if the amateurs have pro help they will say not that pro. Some will never sell to certain people because they don't like them. Some FTers won't sell to HT people because it is not challenging enough - I know burn - but it is true. The $12,000 cost for a one year old dog is right on(2014) but that does not mean it is worth that $. Lastly I did antique/street rods for over 30 years and the value is in the eye of the beholder when you sell. I always advise people be it dogs/cars/houses buy what you buy but don't think you are always are going to break even or make a profit. PS I am a FTer but did HT/support it.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

dckdwg82 said:


> Ive been seeing alot of different pricing for started dogs that are about at the same level. So if you have a FCxMH thats been trained up to TT, what makes you determine the price. Ive seen them go from 1500 all the way up to 4500. Is this just how bad they want to get rid of the dog or a personal thing?


I'm surprised no one has sighted the real driver of price in the market, that being demand vs. supply. There was a time when you could easily get $4,500 for a dog that would run a basic land blind simply by calling the right company. $6,000 - $8,000 was an achievable goal with a decent dog. When demand was high relative to supply, selling started dogs wasn't very difficult. In fact, there were a lot higher prices paid for dogs with this level of training in 2009-2011. 

Demand has eased quite a bit since we pulled out of Afghanistan so prices have normalized. Prices are going to be based on what the market will bear at any given time, or the sellers assessment of value.

Wouldn't be the first time you heard someone say "If I can't get x for it, I'll keep it" same applies here sometimes.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> A couple of times.
> 
> But why are you guys poking a skunk with a stick?


Very, very good point and well taken!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

and sometimes the pro is the go between and acts as the agent between the former owner and the future owner, both who are coincidently their client


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> and sometimes the pro is the go between and acts as the agent between the former owner and the future owner, both who are coincidently their client


Exactly. I have recently sold a couple this way to a very well known FT pro. I will get a pup and train him to a level where I think he is going to make it in AA. If the dog is there, then I can contact the pro and see if any of his clients are looking for a nice prospect. If they are, I will ship the dog to the pro or meet him if he is at his summer training grounds.
Then the pro will assess him for a period of time, usually three to four weeks. Probably run him in derby or two. If he likes what he sees he will tell the clients to purchase him. Nearly everything is conducted through the pro.


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## DonBrou (Nov 14, 2012)

Heck, I have 30K tied up in 2 two year olds (brother and sister). Bought one as a FT washout. They're perfect for what I want (HT). The price is what you're willing to pay or walk away. I'd spend another 30K and not think twice. And I don't do FTs. By the time you add all of the things that it takes to do it right, it gets expensive. It's like marrying a spoiled brat. If you aren't willing to keep up the spoiling, don't sign the papers.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

john fallon said:


> "What we have here is a failure to comunicate" for which concluding the breakdown was caused Semantics may not cover it compleatly, perhaps it's a deficit in their Pragmatic Language Skills Inventory ........;-)
> 
> http://www.thelearningclinic.org/PDF/PragmaticSkillsInstandForm.pdf
> 
> ...


Do you expect anyone on here to read that John!


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## Jim Spagna (Apr 21, 2008)

golfandhunter said:


> Thanks Sharon, you hit the nail on the head.
> Spag, that 12K doesn't include any of my time or expenses related to going to train with the pro and my pup.(motel,vehicle exp,gas,food).
> It takes alot of CHEESE and or time to try and play the Field Trial game at the highest level.


Oh...OK! You're taking FT dogs. My bad! I'm out!


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## Jim Spagna (Apr 21, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> Pretty easy, actually, if one is looking at the high end of the dog games.
> 
> Let's say a well-bred pup at $2000. Add nine months of training at $1000 brings it to $11,000, add vet expenses of a couple hundred and the five bags of dog food it cost before the pup went off for training at $45 apiece. Almost 12k right there, and that doesn't include everything.


I guess there are a lot of things in the FT game that I'm not aware of...actually I know NOTHING about it. Please don't misconstrue this as being argumentative. The two main things I wasn't aware of...first, that you'd have 9 mos. of training in a 14 MO dog and secondly, that FT training with a pro was that expensive.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Not just FT dogs. A hunt test pro would charge $650-800 a month. Add in cost of the pup,birds, shots, vet bills ,etc and a started dog can be almost as much. 18 month old pup has at least $10K into it.
As far as selling a "washout". Most will be more then what the " normal" HT person expects and do well for them. I personally make sure it goes to a home that will care for them first. Never have gotten even close to the dollars have in them.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> Most folks that sell dogs at high prices don't discus it as it is a private transaction among the seller and the buyer. .


Very true. And what is really paid is never what is being discussed/gossiped about. It always gets severely inflated. I had this discussion with a friend of mine who purchases dogs this way. I was told the exact prices that were paid. 



IF YOU POKE A SKUNK, YOU NEED TO HAVE A _VERY _LONG STICK, REGARDS-


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Sometimes the numbers are what are being said - $100,000, $250,000, etc.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

There are Wash-Outs and then there are Wash-Outs.
> Some owners have goals for dogs they campaign to qualify for National and National Am every year. A dog not up to National caliber will be cut loose and may even go on to become someone else's FC-AFC. 
> A dog washed out due to unwanted or unsolvable problems in training or competition may easily turn around and blossom in the hands of a different owner or trainer. 
> There are real washouts sold at up and comer prices to the unsuspecting.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

for me, it is like my friend earl said in an earlier post. i sold a 23 month old dog last year. the new owner's pro won a ft qual at two years nine days(name printed in red on josie's email that week). a friend who is a *very* notable ft am sent a pm and asked, "why did you sell that dog?" my response was, "if i am ever to be known for selling nice young dogs.......sometimes i gotta sell a nice dog!"

so copdoc, would you this consider this dog a washout if in my sales contract, 1) i got a kicker on the qaa, 2) i hope to get one on the fc one day, 3) i have two future breedings by him to my bitches and 4) i have a first right of refusal to purchase him back from the buyer at $1 above any documented offer of purchase?

btw i have one now that i would sell that is *more talented *imo than that one. he is nafc x fc, black, 25 months and *not a washout*!

256-599-4996


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

roseberry said:


> for me, it is like my friend earl said in an earlier post. i sold a 23 month old dog last year. the new owner's pro won a ft qual at two years nine days(name printed in red on josie's email that week). a friend who is a *very* notable ft am sent a pm and asked, "why did you sell that dog?" my response was, "if i am ever to be known for selling nice young dogs.......sometimes i gotta sell a nice dog!"
> 
> so copdoc, would you this consider this dog a washout if in my sales contract, 1) i got a kicker on the qaa, 2) i hope to get one on the fc one day, 3) i have two future breedings by him to my bitches and 4) i have a first right of refusal to purchase him back from the buyer at $1 above any documented offer of purchase?
> 
> ...


Come on John, tell the truth. Sherry said you have too many and made you get rid of one.
If women washed us out like we do our dogs, do you think either of us would still be at home? I think not!!!!!!!!
MP


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> Come on John, tell the truth. Sherry said you have too many and made you get rid of one.
> If women washed us out like we do our dogs, do you think either of us would still be at home? I think not!!!!!!!!
> MP


LOL!!!!!! You guys must do windows and dishes!


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> LOL!!!!!! You guys must do windows and dishes!


susan and mike,
this the truth and i swear it is. i posted, went and emptied the dishwasher, started dinner and looked in on this thread while my sauce simmers and water for pasta comes to a boil!

btw, i think sherry has a young one she likes better! she's just too attached to the old one, plus there is no market!;-)


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## Ikanizer (Jul 22, 2013)

I bought a "wash out" dog (male black lab) from a pro trainer in 1998 for $2500. He agreed to get him his SH title as part of the deal and that was done at 18 months. That dog ran circles around the dogs owned by my hunting buddies and most guides. He passed away about 2 years ago. I got a replacement (another male black lab) from a breeder out of state. This one was more carefully bred. I took him to a pro for 3 months and took over myself after that. I paid $1000 for the puppy and $650x3 for the pro. When I got him back from the pro he was force fetched and obedient. He is much smarter, faster and easier to train than my "wash out" was and just finished his second hunting season running circles around the same types of hunting dogs at double the speed.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I've never liked the idea of washing out dogs, this means you bought a dog it didn't do exactly as you'd like; (usually FT's); so you off-load (aka. Sell it). It will be *good enough *for someone else, it will be Good-enough to hunt, it will be good-enough to run hunt tests. I've always taken issue with the Idea of Good-Enough, probably because I've always needed the whole package. I do Like the idea of Started dogs; meaning someone bought a dog has trained it up, usually with the intention of selling. I see such dogs as being sold (as Value added Dogs) and not washed out, because they lack something. I'm sure on the surface this is the same thing, different verbiage. However I feel this is the difference btw a $1500 started dog; a $4500 started dog and a $10,000 started-derby dog. Training, talent and skill-set do fall in there, but I don't like the idea of selling somebody something at an discounted price; that wasn't good enough for me but will be fine for you. 

I kept a male from my last litter (I planned on doing this prior to ever having the litter). I kept him to train up and sell as a finished dog; mainly because I wanted to ensure that one of the males received; the training to go to the higher levels, and would get the chance to excel later. I choose the litter because I like training that type of dog; I chose a male to ensure I wouldn't get too attached; (I'm a female person). The pup is 14mt (starting transition work) is user friendly and pretty amazing (in everything he's done) (boy's are so much easier than girls ) I still intend to sell him as a finished dog (put a couple of upper level passes on him, and let the new owner finish up). He will not be sold as a washout, he will be well placed with someone who will appreciate him and what was put into him, and who is ready to take that next step (whatever they choose that to be).


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

By your dogs names in sig i imagine you're not a field trial person. The skill level and intangibles demanded of a field trial dog far exceed those required of any other venue so it is reasonable to assume that a dog who doesn't make the A Team may go on to be successful at a less challenging venue. Aka good enough.
It's like a kid who couldn't make the grade to get into Harvard but had enough going for him to get into a less demanding state college. No shame in that and there are plenty of people happy to take over dogs with solid field trial training basics.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Breck said:


> By your dogs names in sig i imagine you're not a field trial person. The skill level and intangibles demanded of a field trial dog far exceed those required of any other venue so it is reasonable to assume that a dog who doesn't make the A Team may go on to be successful at a less challenging venue. Aka good enough.
> It's like a kid who couldn't make the grade to get into Harvard but had enough going for him to get into a less demanding state college. No shame in that and there are plenty of people happy to take over dogs with solid field trial training basics.


Nope don't do the FT (got jams in the 2; I ran ), but don't have the time. I have trained and ran with a bunch of FT washouts, which weren't what was needed in a hunting situation, and not what was needed to be great at Hunt tests, or any other venue for that matter. Have had friends return them after a try out period, and those who deal with their issues on a daily basis. Vocal, wild, intense, no drive, mentally messed up. They are usually lacking in something which is why they are washed, it shows up in the other disciplines. I've Enough experience with these type of dogs that when people say that a washed out FT is good enough for these activities. I tell them to buy a dog that actually does these things and excels; don't settle for a dog that is good-enough. Always take the dog on a trial basis; and be sure you test it in the extremes to see the issues, that your going to have to deal with for your entire relationship. I'm sure there are wash-outs that aren't this way, (but they are rare) I can only go by personal experience, and what I've seen. Good-enough, better training, does not make up for what is usually lacking.


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## SaPaHa (Dec 8, 2012)

*Thank you Scott*



Scott Adams said:


> I agree with most of what you have said, but not this: "believe that ANY dog being advertized to be sold, is being washed out."
> 
> There are a lot of reasons that people sell started dogs.
> 1) Some prefer working with young dogs, and then selling them to help finance their hobby.
> ...


I love working with young dogs; but I do not hunt and I will compete in HT, but it is not what I want to do. I prefer to just work with the dog. I also love my dogs - but I will sell them, NOT because they washed out, but because they need a hunting family who will now enjoy them!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Nope don't do the FT (got jams in the 2; I ran ), but don't have the time. I have trained and ran with a bunch of FT washouts, which weren't what was needed in a hunting situation, and not what was needed to be great at Hunt tests, or any other venue for that matter. Have had friends return them after a try out period, and those who deal with their issues on a daily basis. Vocal, wild, intense, no drive, mentally messed up. They are usually lacking in something which is why they are washed, it shows up in the other disciplines. I've Enough experience with these type of dogs that when people say that a washed out FT is good enough for these activities. I tell them to buy a dog that actually does these things and excels; don't settle for a dog that is good-enough. Always take the dog on a trial basis; and be sure you test it in the extremes to see the issues, that your going to have to deal with for your entire relationship. I'm sure there are wash-outs that aren't this way, (but they are rare) I can only go by personal experience, and what I've seen. Good-enough, better training, does not make up for what is usually lacking.




I cannot disagree with your personal observations. They are what they are. I do, however, disagree with your conclusions. You say the dogs you saw were "Vocal, wild, intense, no drive, mentally messed up." I can say that of the washouts I have had - which must be close to 20 now - displayed those issues. I gave a very nice bitch to a good friend of mine, because he would offer her a nice hunting home. He likes her alot and asked me what I thought was reasonable

I told him
- I paid $3500 for her (FC/AFC x FC/AFC)
- I spent $1000 for misc. veterinary expenses (shots, heartworm, OFA hips/elbows, CERF)
- 12 months of training at 800/month (or more, depending on birds shot)

And said how about $2500. He gagged. I told him I wanted a good home for the dog, and she got one - I didn't expect to get paid. But, he asked. And he got a great deal.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Nope don't do the FT (got jams in the 2; I ran ), but don't have the time. I have trained and ran with a bunch of FT washouts, which weren't what was needed in a hunting situation, and not what was needed to be great at Hunt tests, or any other venue for that matter. Have had friends return them after a try out period, and those who deal with their issues on a daily basis. Vocal, wild, intense, no drive, mentally messed up. They are usually lacking in something which is why they are washed, it shows up in the other disciplines. I've Enough experience with these type of dogs that when people say that a washed out FT is good enough for these activities. I tell them to buy a dog that actually does these things and excels; don't settle for a dog that is good-enough. Always take the dog on a trial basis; and be sure you test it in the extremes to see the issues, that your going to have to deal with for your entire relationship. I'm sure there are wash-outs that aren't this way, (but they are rare) I can only go by personal experience, and what I've seen. Good-enough, better training, does not make up for what is usually lacking.


Wow, like Ted said I can't dispute your personal experience, I can only say it's 100% opposed to my personal experience with field trial "washouts". First off I hear regular hunting guys disparage field trial dogs with the "wild, vocal, intense" stereotype all the time. My experience is that stereotype that just isn't true. I love intense, focused retrievers with over the top drive, but hate wild, vocal out of control dogs. You can have one without the other and most successful field trial dogs are just that. So if a dog washed out of field trial training because he or she was too wild, vocal or lacked drive, I'll admit I wouldn't want that dog as a hunting- hunt test dog either, but most FT dogs wash out for single issues that wouldn't have any affect on the hunting capabilities. 

My first field trial dog (Cody in my avatar) is a good example, Cody had all the drive you would want, was a good, not great marker, handled well on land blinds but would go out on long difficult all age water blinds. Though he was good at the Qualifying level, it became apparent he would never succeed at the all age level so we switched to hunt test where after some acclimating he went six for six in Master. he was also one of the best hunting dogs ever. I have seen field trial dogs wash out for a variety of reasons, some would preclude them from being good hunt test or hunting dogs, but most go on to be great in that field. They are typically very well bred, they have six months of sound basics trained into them and many have further training to the point of handling. Most of these dogs could immediately start running Senior and succeed, and a few could do Master right off the bat. Buying one of these dogs for $2,000.00-3,000.00 would be the deal of a lifetime for some hunt test guy.


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