# Constructing Marks and Blinds, Part 3



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Rules of the Game

1. If you want me to comment, you must use diagram. It is too hard for me to try to translate "I would throw from big bush, angle back to little bush" etc. Microsoft Paint is very easy to use. Some of you who know how to draw on diagrams need to take responsibility for helping others learn how.
2. We are assuming sun is not an issue.
3. We are assuming safety is not an issue.
4. We are assuming guns and birds are visible - unless there is a tree in the way 
5. We are assuming time is not an issue

We are just working on building marks

Scenario. Derby. 4th series. You need a ball buster to create separation. Because this is my scenario, there will be no breaking birds. You cannot have birds land outside of black border. You should make every effort to have birds that do not encourage switching or hunting an old fall. You cannot shoot flyer first. Photo provided by Bon.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Hmm tough to tell, without being there but by the photo, but looks like they didn't give you much to work with for a 4th. series "Ball Buster". But I'm looking forward to the responces. I see a couple down the shore that I don't like to do. How far from line to farthest point ( where black lines meet)??


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> How far from line to farthest point ( where black lines meet)??


the photo is on Lanse's Pendroy MT. property and frpm where the line is you have at least 200 yds to the right, and every bit of 300 yds to the far deep corner....the opposing slope is about a 30degree incline and there is full access to the peninsula without a boat...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

this is the reverse image from the far slope looking back toward the line, which in Ted's diagram is in the top left corner...Hope that helps with what you have to play with

photos were taken about two years apart...first pic was taken with my phone last August, and the second pic was taken in a cold windy day in October a few years earlier with a Nikon 300mm lens


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Please don't set up cheaty marks and remember that a dog that runs around the water is not creating separation.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Best ball buster 4th I see with line and water, wind given.
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.
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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Like I said really tough to tell by a picture, focal length ect... But from the picture...


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## nick_wilburn (Jun 30, 2012)

I Would shoot the flyer high in the arc above the horizon. This you will see what dogs can mark. Alot of dogs will run over the hill line thinking the bird fell on the far side. then do a short water mark angle in to the right making the dog cross a peninsula and re enter the water
.


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

I really like this memory bird. I would think it should give you some separation.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

While judging one of my very first Derby stakes, in the 3rd series I had planned on cutting a corner of water. The person (RVB) who was my co-judge, thankfully, and who has been in this game longer than most on this board told me that day we weren't going to do that. He went on to say "put a little water in front of these young dogs and watch what happens". 
He moved us within 10 yards of the shore, which was basically a swim by pond in shape, put 2 birds in the field one thrown right and one thrown left. I never told him this but have told this to others, I looked at this set up and said to myself, "man, we aren't going to get anything out of this". Well, RVB knew WTH was going on and I certainly didn't, suffice it to say the judges were in charge after this set up. I learned a very valuable lesson that day. You do NOT have to set up cheaty stuff to get what you think you need. 

With all due respect to everyone, everything that has been set up so far is why I believe a lot of people stay away from the Derby stake. Long angle entries, tiny little slices of water to cut, tiny little pieces of points to go over, CRAZY. The Derby stake is not suppose to be about "trained" responses. It is suppose to be about "natural" responses. 

Of course, this is only one man's opinion. However, what I learned from one of our sports most respected and knowledgeable people that day will always stick with me when I am invited to judge a Derby stake, "put a piece of water in front of a young dog and watch what happens". THANK YOU RVB!!!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

*Derby 4th*








Long memory bird thrown down the hill. If dog doesn't angle across the peninsula I think will square out to right and run to top of hill where gun is or in the area between the guns. If dog gets in late, I think will bail left and run the dike which will also have them running straight up the hill.
Go bird is a squarish entry not enticing a cheat. All dogs should burn same amount of memory traversing the pond on the go bird. This bird is shot up the hill. I think being rewarded for climbing the hill on the go bird will influence the dog to climb in the memory bird.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Wade said:


> While judging one of my very first Derby stakes, in the 3rd series I had planned on cutting a corner of water. The person (RVB) who was my co-judge, thankfully, and who has been in this game longer than most on this board told me that day we weren't going to do that. He went on to say "put a little water in front of these young dogs and watch what happens".
> He moved us within 10 yards of the shore, which was basically a swim by pond in shape, put 2 birds in the field one thrown right and one thrown left. I never told him this but have told this to others, I looked at this set up and said to myself, "man, we aren't going to get anything out of this". Well, RVB knew WTH was going on and I certainly didn't, suffice it to say the judges were in charge after this set up. I learned a very valuable lesson that day. You do NOT have to set up cheaty stuff to get what you think you need.
> 
> With all due respect to everyone, everything that has been set up so far is why I believe a lot of people stay away from the Derby stake. Long angle entries, tiny little slices of water to cut, tiny little pieces of points to go over, CRAZY. The Derby stake is not suppose to be about "trained" responses. It is suppose to be about "natural" responses.
> ...



I agree 100% , but the rules and line have been set in the picture by Ted. Really tough to get two square entries with enough seperation to prevent switching or going back to an old fall with what was provided, where the lines has been placed..


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I like Bons 2nd picture better for that reason Todd.



Todd Caswell said:


> I agree 100% , but the rules and line have been set in the picture by Ted. Really tough to get two square entries with enough seperation to prevent switching or going back to an old fall with what was provided, where the lines has been placed..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Wind shifted a bit and the line has been moved now you have the opportunity for two square entries. Internet judging at it's best


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Since Todd and Wade wanted to set up their own rules, I leave them in charge of this thread.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Come on now Ted, I was just making a reference to what I don't like in a Derby. No rule changes, I was just hoping to see less cheat on the marks. Using the second picture Bon provided gives better water entries IMO.



Ted Shih said:


> Since Todd and Wade wanted to set up their own rules, I leave them in charge of this thread.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

And I gave my marks with your (Ted) rules and location of the line and the wind direction.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

While it may not be a ball-buster this might let you find the best marking dogs. LH bird is thrown L to R landing in what appears to be good cover. There are plenty of distractions along the way to divert pup's line and push him into no man's land. Once the gunner sits down pup likely won't have the white jacket in view when in the water. Pup will have to hold his line on his own. The flyer requires the courage to push through heavy cover and drive the hill. Some may fall off to the left and hunt the easy open area behind the guns. In my limited experience I don't think the line to the memory bird is overly cheaty, but it does give several options for pup to wander around in the wrong area. Thoughts? too easy?


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## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

I see I am getting in this one a little late, but still wanted to put one up for Ted's feedback. I avoided looking at the other posts and comments so I apologize if I am repeating other entries. Anyway, I tried to come up with a tough memory bird that was not in the obvious choice (to me), the deep left corner, but I could not. I picked M1 to hive the dog many non-cheaty entry exists but penalize a dog that squared the final exit and went straight up the hill. For the flyer, I tried to pick a spot that rewarded square lines/exits to try to make the angles on M1 more difficult.

Thanks again Ted.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> With all due respect to everyone, everything that has been set up so far is why I believe a lot of people stay away from the Derby stake. Long angle entries, tiny little slices of water to cut, tiny little pieces of points to go over, CRAZY. The Derby stake is not suppose to be about "trained" responses. It is suppose to be about "natural" responses.


I take issue with Wade's post and with the other posts that he and Todd made.

*First,* I don't think you can ever set up a test where trained abilities are eliminated. For example, the penalty for breaking is still elimination. And controlled breaks are to be penalized. But, many people, like Wade, spout the mantra that this derby test or that derby test is poor, because it involves the element of training. The issue is not whether trained abilities are tested, but rather the balance between the testing of natural and trained abilities.

*Second*, in post number 2, Todd writes



> Hmm tough to tell, without being there but by the photo, but looks like they didn't give you much to work with for a 4th. series "Ball Buster".


When you are asked to judge, you must cope with the hand you are dealt. The club tells you "the derby has this land/water." And you deal with it. The wind is a given direction and the sun rises in a certain position, and you deal with it. You can whine about it, or you can get to work. This exercise is about learning to cope with what you have, not whining about it. 

*Third*, when I combine Wade's post number 5, where he states:




Wade said:


> Please don't set up cheaty marks and remember that a dog that runs around the water is not creating separation.




and post above, number 10, where he states:




Wade said:


> With all due respect to everyone, everything that has been set up so far is why I believe a lot of people stay away from the Derby stake. Long angle entries, tiny little slices of water to cut, tiny little pieces of points to go over, CRAZY. The Derby stake is not suppose to be about "trained" responses. It is suppose to be about "natural" responses.




I gather that Wade is criticizing those of you who posted as presenting "technical, cheaty" marks. I disagree. But, before I go into my disagreement - WHY IS IT THAT I AM DEFENDING YOUR WORK and that YOU ARE NOT?

The fact that a dog can cheat the water on the mark does not make the mark a cheaty mark. I attach Breck's overhead view of his marks, see post 6, below. Breck's marks are in YELLOW. Mine are in RED. Do Breck's marks invite - and perhaps reward cheating? I don't think so. Do my marks invite - and perhaps reward - cheating? You bet.

I don't see "long angle entries, " "tiny little slices of water" that Wade is railing against. I think he is simply repeating a Mantra he heard once. These marks are fine.









*Fourth, *let's not forget that at the end of the day, you must pick a winner. In post 12, Todd states:




> Really tough to get two square entries with enough seperation to prevent switching or going back to an old fall with what was provided, where the lines has been placed..


Since Todd and Wade are so taken with square entries and want to be able to manipulate the pond to permit that let's do what they want.

I have attached another diagram of the pond, provided by Breck. I have constructed "square entries" "at the water's edge" with no "little points of land" to go over. Again, my marks are in RED. 

Tell me how much separation you expect to see with the Red marks.










I have finished my rant. 

I think that this exercise is a useful one - gathering by the PMs that I have received. So, I am going to forge ahead.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

In setting up my marks in yellow I expect to see trained and lesser trained responses while challenging marking ability. As Derby dogs are learning about staying in the water you will sometimes see interesting things as they swim, approach land and think about getting out. The lesser trained dogs more likely to square entries/exits or even run at gun on land. So my dead bird, true line over the point so to speak, dogs may stay wet vs get on point, pushing them towards dike. Stand out gun very visible on hillside though. Dogs that may square have 5 opportunities to do so which can put them way behind gun. On the Flyer, if dog enters right at corner and doesn't suck to gun well great. More likely they will slide down shore a bit before entering putting them under arc and up wind and maybe hunting in wrong pot hole. 
??


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Not going to jump in at this stage of thread. Having said that changing line even a short distance, say a few feet, can change the entire texture of the test. Have done that many times with a co-judge , when sometimes the test dog does the test well. If one sets up a difficult first series, based on perhaps say a field of derby points that exceed a 100 plus among the dogs, should the "second land series" be hard? and the subsequent series harder? I think Ted was in a teaching mode and a experience mode as many complain about judging in general, making folks think, rather then who is the "most correct". That particular water is very "hard" and allows for many senarios.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Settle down fellows, Retriever Field Trial Journal ran a series of articles on "areas of fall" no matter the level of the FT stake and the contributors could not agree. That is why we have co-judges or @ Nationals - three. Perception from afar is different than pounding the ground. Please continue.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> Not going to jump in at this stage of thread. Having said that changing line even a short distance, say a few feet, can change the entire texture of the test. Have done that many times with a co-judge , when sometimes the test dog does the test well. If one sets up a difficult first series, based on perhaps say a field of derby points that exceed a 100 plus among the dogs, should the "second land series" be hard? and the subsequent series harder? I think Ted was in a teaching mode and a experience mode as many complain about judging in general, making folks think, rather then who is the "most correct". That particular water is very "hard" and allows for many senarios.


Earl, 

You are correct. I am trying to make this a productive learning exercise. To that end, I want to have a few givens ... wind, line, boundaries, etc. There needs to be some uniformity to the process 

Ted


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## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

I know nothing about FT's and am just starting out as a HT judge. I looked at this picture and came up with many different setup ideas, but decided on the same thing that Good Dogs posted on post #18. I think the factors of the points, cover, wind and angled hillside will challenge the dogs well enough to get some answers.

Again Ted, thank you for doing this. I am learning a lot from these threads.


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

Breck said:


> Best ball buster 4th I see with line and water, wind given.
> .
> 
> View attachment 22167
> ...


Are you expecting the flyer to splash in the water? Would / could it cause issues if the bird was blown to the far shore?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok, as I examine this thread, I think that we got ahead of ourselves. Before we consider specific marks, let's look at our field. What is going to influence the dog's path? Or to put it another way, what are the features that influence a dog's ability to run straight (line) on this pond? See diagram below. Slope affects dogs. They tend to run up or down hills, they don't like running on a side hill (see Red Slash marks). Dogs tend to enter and exit water square (see Yellow border). There is a thick corner of cat tails that the dogs will flare right or left on. All of these features will influence a dog's path. And, of course, there is the water. So think about how these interact when you construct your marks.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Some have been extremely fortunate as to who they have had the pleasure to judge with over time. Every time one judges one should try to take away something he/she can use at a later date or something that will help them as a judge. Every person who sits in the chair is entitled to have their own opinion as to what they would like to see or to be done. Ones own thought process is neither right or wrong so long as you use the Standard Book when judging. Some opinions vary greatly with some on this thread and other judges thread, so be it. As previously stated, everyone is entitled to their opinion. The statement made earlier as to why people shy away from the Derby stake is not right nor is it wrong, why? Because it is an opinion, nothing more nothing less.

What some people do on this forum to open others eyes to the sport is a good thing. However, it is still up to those who read what is written gather information from these types of threads to formulate their own opinion. Nothing is gospel when it comes to judging with the exception of the Standard Book, NOTHING. 

A question from previous post #20, "Tell me how much separation you expect to see with the Red marks." A judge or a good judge any way cannot answer this question because to do so would mean an unprecedented assumption. A quote from long ago by Adolph Rupp "that's why they play the game" is the best one can do to answer the question.


I do love Kool-Aid but some of it can be awful sour.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> I do love Kool-Aid but some of it can be awful sour.


I will leave it to the gallery to determine who is drinking what Kool Aid.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

My thoughts on Breck's marks. See diagram below: Breck's marks in Red, mine in Blue. I would throw M1 from dirt to dirt. Generally, I don't like sluicing a bird in the water where a dog might not be able to see it. I like throwing a mark across an obstacle where a dog that runs to the gun must decide to cross that obstacle. (Examples, Birds thrown from dirt across water to island. Birds thrown across a large ravine). Here a dog that runs to the gun, may decide to stay on the dirt for a long time before jumping in the water to get the bird on the other shore. As far as the Flyer goes, the dog will be in and out of the water several times, losing sight of the guns. If the dog squares its entries, flares the high cattails, then when it exits the water it will be running directly at the guns. It will then need to make a correction and run the sidehill to the bird.

Breck's right hand bird is tough in that the dogs have many decisions to make land v. water before they exit and run up. If they square, then they run to the gun, as I anticipated with my F2


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Nick

First, I generally do not like shooting the flyer first in the Derby. The young dogs get so jacked up about the flyer that they sometimes don't swing over to the second bird. Second, your water mark involves two factors that we haven't discussed - distance and uniqueness. Your water mark is shorter, and if it splashes in the water, quite memorable. So, I think you have increased the likelihood that the dogs will do this mark well


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think if you push one of your two marks higher up the hill, you will be able to take advantage of the side hill


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Captain Jack

First, I didn't notice the depression near your flyer (Green Oval). Good catch. Second, how can you better position your flyer to: a) Use the depression to your advantage; b) minimize the possibility of a switch (I can see a dog swimming to M2, squaring entries, and ending up in F1). There is nothing technically wrong. If a dog switches it is a bad dog. But, can you move your flyer to reduce the likelihood of a switch, and put the depression into play?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Good Dogs, I think the depression helps the dogs get your flyer. If they flare it, where do they go?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GRun. Flyers are very variable. There will be a difference between a flyer that lands in the depression and one that does not. Is that important to you?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Oh I hadn't considered slicing so would agree with revision. Probably get answers on dead bird thrown land/land. Gun suction and channel.


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> I think if you push one of your two marks higher up the hill, you will be able to take advantage of the side hill
> 
> 
> View attachment 22201


Initially I had M1 up the hill higher. Maybe I over thought it but I was thinking that to get the most influence from the cattails, the mark should be closer to the obstacle. I feel that the further you go up the hill, the easier/more likely the dog to get lucky and be rewarded for flaring left and squaring the shore. That being said, I agree that I did not fully utilize the side hill. Thanks for your input...I enjoy the open tuning to try and learn with these scenarios.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Blue M1 is a very good example of something we would NOT like to see in a Derby stake. At this young age we are still pounding the "get in the water" mantra (what a nice word, Mantra) into our dogs. Here you have a mark that is allowing them or telling them it is OK to run past the water. Move the thrower to the end of the yellow line and make your throw down that dike having the bird land on the backside shore line, preferably without a splash. IMO



Ted Shih said:


> My thoughts on Breck's marks. See diagram below: Breck's marks in Red, mine in Blue. I would throw M1 from dirt to dirt. Generally, I don't like sluicing a bird in the water where a dog might not be able to see it. I like throwing a mark across an obstacle where a dog that runs to the gun must decide to cross that obstacle. (Examples, Birds thrown from dirt across water to island. Birds thrown across a large ravine). Here a dog that runs to the gun, may decide to stay on the dirt for a long time before jumping in the water to get the bird on the other shore. As far as the Flyer goes, the dog will be in and out of the water several times, losing sight of the guns. If the dog squares its entries, flares the high cattails, then when it exits the water it will be running directly at the guns. It will then need to make a correction and run the sidehill to the bird.
> 
> Breck's right hand bird is tough in that the dogs have many decisions to make land v. water before they exit and run up. If they square, then they run to the gun, as I anticipated with my F2
> 
> ...


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Dead birds thrown into the water as a memory bird can be surprisingly effective at times. Don't drop that line of thinking from your arsenal. Also, birds thrown at or near the shore line with a hill right there front of the dog as they get out of the water can be good as well. Dogs like to drive up hills keep that in the back of your mind.




Ted Shih said:


> Nick
> 
> First, I generally do not like shooting the flyer first in the Derby. The young dogs get so jacked up about the flyer that they sometimes don't swing over to the second bird. Second, your water mark involves two factors that we haven't discussed - distance and uniqueness. Your water mark is shorter, and if it splashes in the water, quite memorable. So, I think you have increased the likelihood that the dogs will do this mark well
> 
> ...


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Nice work, a good set of marks here.




Ted Shih said:


> Good Dogs, I think the depression helps the dogs get your flyer. If they flare it, where do they go?
> 
> 
> View attachment 22205


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Assuming there's more water before the flyer fall.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Captain Jack
> 
> First, I didn't notice the depression near your flyer (Green Oval). Good catch. Second, how can you better position your flyer to: a) Use the depression to your advantage; b) minimize the possibility of a switch (I can see a dog swimming to M2, squaring entries, and ending up in F1). There is nothing technically wrong. If a dog switches it is a bad dog. But, can you move your flyer to reduce the likelihood of a switch, and put the depression into play?
> 
> ...











I don't know. So, I'm thinking moving the gun and throwing right to left will lessen the temptation to switch. So I dump the bird in the bottom of the depression will reduce scenting. Also dog is used to punching out of water and driving or hunting in the water at shores edge. Alternatively, I could throw to the back edge of the depression for the same reasons and having the gun higher on the hill may draw the dog around the depression inducing a hunt around the gun station.

Edit: the go bird requires too precise of throw to use a flyer there. Also would be shooting toward the long gunner, so I'd likely not shoot a flyer rather than shoot it out of order.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Assuming there's more water before the flyer fall.
> View attachment 22208


Mark 

As dog gets in the water, flyer guns will be out of sight. On the other hand, memory guns will be visible. Dogs may break down early and get G1, even though its the memory bird (no switch since dog never reached Flyer Fall). And if they do, it may be hard to get them to punch to Flyer.

Is that OK with you?

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Captain Jack, 

If you are going to forego a flyer. Why not position the gun by the water's edge, then throw into the tip of the depression? See Green Mark. Dogs may hunt along water's edge or in corridor shown by black box.

Ted


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Captain Jack,
> 
> If you are going to forego a flyer. Why not position the gun by the water's edge, then throw into the tip of the depression? See Green Mark. Dogs may hunt along water's edge or in corridor shown by black box.
> 
> ...


I like it Ted. My only concern is that it may be too close to the right edge of the pond making it very tempting to cheat. Aside from that, line em up and let's run. Thanks for the feedback.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

bird #1 left to right, flyer left to right. I would expect dogs with a poor mark to hunt in no man's land between the AOF's or behind the gun after getting out of the water early on the right or left, respectively.-Paul

OOPS! Went back and looked at all the setups and see that mine is almost identical with Captain Jack's. My memory bird is a bit shorter, is all. But that's still what I would propose to my co-judge.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Mark
> 
> As dog gets in the water, flyer guns will be out of sight. On the other hand, memory guns will be visible. Dogs may break down early and get G1, even though its the memory bird (no switch since dog never reached Flyer Fall). And if they do, it may be hard to get them to punch to Flyer.
> 
> ...


1. If they did I'd be bothered, but I don't think that 4th series derby dogs are going to break down on this go bird flyer.
2. If anything, I would expect them to flair slightly off the memory guns and run nearer the water/land intersection, keeping the flyer gunners in sight.
3. Now they may be coming towards the flyer gunners from the south and beaching on the spit where the gunners are parked; who knows what will happen next.
4. Yes, I'd like more separation between these marks to eliminate any chance of a switch/pseudo-switch, but you requested a ballbuster.
5. I'm not so keen on marks high up on the big hill. Unless you're judging lines, I believe most dogs will get those birds without too much trouble.

These are the paths I'd anticipate (blue, orange, red = Ex, good, poor)







Of course if any of these routes land the dog on the bird, without too many extracurriculars in between, its shown a good mark.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

So field trial chairman is chomping at the bit to get test going and has pros lined up to run so they can get to the open. What's the concensus setup to go with?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

paul young said:


> bird #1 left to right, flyer left to right. I would expect dogs with a poor mark to hunt in no man's land between the AOF's or behind the gun after getting out of the water early on the right or left, respectively.-Paul
> 
> OOPS! Went back and looked at all the setups and see that mine is almost identical with Captain Jack's. My memory bird is a bit shorter, is all. But that's still what I would propose to my co-judge.


I like, but flyer less on the hill. 

Just dealing with young energetic derby to be dogs or pups with hopefully a good career and a long ride. 

Edit one more time : Lol....We are looking for talent and style in their approach to a challenge. 
Edit again as I think more. It is a hard concept for a young dog to go land, water, and land again. Just saying.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> 5. I'm not so keen on marks high up on the big hill. Unless you're judging lines, I believe most dogs will get those birds without too much trouble.


In this scenario, wouldn't up the hill to the left be better than up the hill to the right? Up the hill toward the right side is going to reward the dogs that square the bank and run up the hill. Seems like the red boxes on my diagram are going to be areas that dogs end up that square the bank and drive up the hill. The left side red box is going to be the dog that squares to the dam on the left and then goes right on the dam and up the hill. If you put a bird in those boxes dogs are going to luck into them sometimes. Seems like you'd want to put the birds where even if the dog squares the swim, he has to correct his line when he hits the land in order to get to the mark.

On my M1, to go to the mark the dog has to go through or around the cattails on the island. He can't square the swim and luck into the bird running up the hill. On the F2, if he exits on the dam and runs to the right he has to make the right decision to correct to the left instead of driving up the hill. Both are left to right so that dogs that run to the gun will end up short of the bird.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

For those out there that is reading this thread, what do you consider a derby dog or a derby dog to be?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> For those out there that is reading this thread, what do you consider a derby dog or a derby dog to be?


A dog, under the age of 2, that runs derby stakes.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> For those out there that is reading this thread, what do you consider a derby dog or a derby dog to be?


That's going to vary by age. World of difference between a 23 month old and 13 month old....

At best, they are about 75% of the way to becoming finished retrievers.-Paul


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> 1. If they did I'd be bothered, but I don't think that 4th series derby dogs are going to break down on this go bird flyer.
> 2. If anything, I would expect them to flair slightly off the memory guns and run nearer the water/land intersection, keeping the flyer gunners in sight.
> 3. Now they may be coming towards the flyer gunners from the south and beaching on the spit where the gunners are parked; who knows what will happen next.
> 4. Yes, I'd like more separation between these marks to eliminate any chance of a switch/pseudo-switch, but you requested a ballbuster.
> ...



I would be troubled by the fact that you are penalizing the dog that goes straightest to the bird by making the retired gun most tempting to it, while the dogs that cheat the water are not.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> 1. If they did I'd be bothered, but I don't think that 4th series derby dogs are going to break down on this go bird flyer.
> 2. If anything, I would expect them to flair slightly off the memory guns and run nearer the water/land intersection, keeping the flyer gunners in sight.
> 3. Now they may be coming towards the flyer gunners from the south and beaching on the spit where the gunners are parked; who knows what will happen next.
> 4. Yes, I'd like more separation between these marks to eliminate any chance of a switch/pseudo-switch, but you requested a ballbuster.
> ...



I disagree with points 1 and 5. I would expect dogs to square the hill (they don't like the sidehill) and run to the guns. Once they got to the guns, I think that there is a good chance that they would run over the top of the hill and stay there.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

paul young said:


> bird #1 left to right, flyer left to right. I would expect dogs with a poor mark to hunt in no man's land between the AOF's or behind the gun after getting out of the water early on the right or left, respectively.-Paul
> 
> OOPS! Went back and looked at all the setups and see that mine is almost identical with Captain Jack's. My memory bird is a bit shorter, is all. But that's still what I would propose to my co-judge.



An example how different people looking at the same field at different times, find the same marks.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

These are nice Paul. I also like the fact that you would discuss your thoughts with your co judge and not be one of those "these are the marks I like so we will go with them" type of judges. Believe it or not there are some judges out there like that.



paul young said:


> bird #1 left to right, flyer left to right. I would expect dogs with a poor mark to hunt in no man's land between the AOF's or behind the gun after getting out of the water early on the right or left, respectively.-Paul
> 
> OOPS! Went back and looked at all the setups and see that mine is almost identical with Captain Jack's. My memory bird is a bit shorter, is all. But that's still what I would propose to my co-judge.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

This is fun Ted. Can we have a new picture to critique? I think we are all getting something from this.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> This is fun Ted. Can we have a new picture to critique? I think we are all getting something from this.



Wade 

In the event that it has escaped your notice, I prefer not to interact with you. You are certainly free to start your own thread. 

Ted


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I did not notice that Ted. I thought there was some meaningful banter back and forth which is healthy for the discussion. I believe it does not hurt to get useful information from both sides of the aisle. Wouldn't you agree?



Ted Shih said:


> Wade
> 
> In the event that it has escaped your notice, I prefer not to interact with you. You are certainly free to start your own thread.
> 
> Ted


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Wade
> 
> In the event that it has escaped your notice, I prefer not to interact with you. You are certainly free to start your own thread.
> 
> Ted


Wade, did you forget to genuflect before entering the thread?


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## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

I am legitimately trying to learn from these exercises and do not have any intention of criticizing someone else's choices. If someone could help, I would like to understand the thought process of placing a memory bird on the hill at the far end of the dike separating the ponds.

I avoided this area because it seems like a dog could take a path of least resistance and end up in the AoF, like I have marked-up on the attached. When it is tough to avoid cheaty elements in a Derby, it seems to me that the cheat should require a substantial and obvious correction by the dog to demonstrate it at least had a good mark. For falls at the end of the dike, or directly up the hill from the end of the dike, a dog could cheat all the way to the bird and there would be no way to tell if it had a good mark and just lacked training to hold the line, or if it was like the blind squirrel that found the nut. 

Maybe I am overthinking the intent of the set-up. It could be as long as the top placements are obvious, it was a good final series. Maybe the dog that takes a very cheaty line like on the attached should only expect a JAM at best, regardless of the quality of the mark.

Thanks


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Wade said:


> I did not notice that Ted. I thought there was some meaningful banter back and forth which is healthy for the discussion. I believe it does not hurt to get useful information from both sides of the aisle. Wouldn't you agree?


Wade, I have never judged but have participated in the derby stake. All it seems you are doing in this thread is whining about the same subject matter and critiquing others ideas. Why not either start your own thread, actively participate by putting marks down (leaving it at that), or walk away!! We get the idea that you don't like cheaty water marks but it is a fact of playing the game in the derby. Whining, complaining, and trying to get others to drink your Kool Aid doesn't add at all to the thread. 

You are the only one bantering and another person is required to have a discussion. Your point is pointless, enough already.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GRun said:


> I am legitimately trying to learn from these exercises and do not have any intention of criticizing someone else's choices. If someone could help, I would like to understand the thought process of placing a memory bird on the hill at the far end of the dike separating the ponds.
> 
> I avoided this area because it seems like a dog could take a path of least resistance and end up in the AoF, like I have marked-up on the attached. When it is tough to avoid cheaty elements in a Derby, it seems to me that the cheat should require a substantial and obvious correction by the dog to demonstrate it at least had a good mark. For falls at the end of the dike, or directly up the hill from the end of the dike, a dog could cheat all the way to the bird and there would be no way to tell if it had a good mark and just lacked training to hold the line, or if it was like the blind squirrel that found the nut.
> 
> ...



GR 

I would push the left hand bird higher up the hill. To give me more information on the quality of the mark. I disagree strongly with the comment that 




> Maybe the dog that takes a very cheaty line like on the attached should only expect a JAM at best, regardless of the quality of the mark.



The quality of the mark is my primary concern. 

Ted


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

I hope I didn't pee in anybody's cornflakes

Any thoughts on my setups?


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Wade, did you forget to genuflect before entering the thread?


where the hell's the like button


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Jerry, I had milk in my cereal this morning so it's all good. 

Keep one thing in mind, what you think is a god test can sometimes lead to having your backside handed to you. Conversely, there will be times when you think you need more to your test and the two of you as judges chew up and spit out the field. 




Jerry Beil said:


> In this scenario, wouldn't up the hill to the left be better than up the hill to the right? Up the hill toward the right side is going to reward the dogs that square the bank and run up the hill. Seems like the red boxes on my diagram are going to be areas that dogs end up that square the bank and drive up the hill. The left side red box is going to be the dog that squares to the dam on the left and then goes right on the dam and up the hill. If you put a bird in those boxes dogs are going to luck into them sometimes. Seems like you'd want to put the birds where even if the dog squares the swim, he has to correct his line when he hits the land in order to get to the mark.
> 
> On my M1, to go to the mark the dog has to go through or around the cattails on the island. He can't square the swim and luck into the bird running up the hill. On the F2, if he exits on the dam and runs to the right he has to make the right decision to correct to the left instead of driving up the hill. Both are left to right so that dogs that run to the gun will end up short of the bird.
> 
> View attachment 22214


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

GRun said:


> I am legitimately trying to learn from these exercises and do not have any intention of criticizing someone else's choices. If someone could help, I would like to understand the thought process of placing a memory bird on the hill at the far end of the dike separating the ponds.
> 
> I avoided this area because it seems like a dog could take a path of least resistance and end up in the AoF, like I have marked-up on the attached. When it is tough to avoid cheaty elements in a Derby, it seems to me that the cheat should require a substantial and obvious correction by the dog to demonstrate it at least had a good mark. For falls at the end of the dike, or directly up the hill from the end of the dike, a dog could cheat all the way to the bird and there would be no way to tell if it had a good mark and just lacked training to hold the line, or if it was like the blind squirrel that found the nut.
> 
> ...


GRun, much as Ted said, and he has much more experience than I do, I put my long bird higher on the hill and deeper (as it appears to me in the photo) and threw the bird down the hill and angle back. 

It's been my experience that dogs will climb hills more so than fall off the hill. Having tube gun higher than the bird will draw the dog up the hill.

With a deeper mark, I think a dog that cheats as in your edits or even one the bails to the left and exits early would be running toward the backside and headed up the hill and behind the bird.

With regard to your line going all the way around the pond, I've set up marks similar to this, where there is early water, a point or peninsula, and late water. Most dogs that want to cheat will tend to skirt the early water and run out the peninsula rather than go all the way around. IMO most cheats are to get there faster, not to avoid getting wet, so I think even young derby dogs that show memory of a bird near that long gun would opt to run out the point rather than continue around to the left, running away from the gun and bird. Either way though, I think putting the gun deeper protects the mark.









And feel free to question or critique any thing you see with my name on it. That's how you learn and how I learn.

Edit: I also agree with Ted with regard to the line. I'm more concerned with the mark than the line. In fact, my first judging assignment (derby) was with a lady that never made a mark on the paper until the dog showed signs it had started it's hunt (tail crack, nose down/up, etc.).


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

captainjack said:


> GRun, much as Ted said, and he has much more experience than I do, I put my long bird higher on the hill and deeper (as it appears to me in the photo) and threw the bird down the hill and angle back.
> 
> It's been my experience that dogs will climb hills more so than fall off the hill. Having tube gun higher than the bird will draw the dog up the hill.
> 
> ...


So you're not really saying farther up the hill but farther up the hill and more to the left. And you don't want to put a bird on the yellow or while lines even if it's all the way a the top of the hill. Right?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Jerry Beil said:


> So you're not really saying farther up the hill but farther up the hill and more to the left. And you don't want to put a bird on the yellow or while lines even if it's all the way a the top of the hill. Right?


Right. The yellow and white are where I think the dogs will want to go if they are unsure about the mark.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

jrrichar said:


> We get the idea that you don't like cheaty water marks but it is a fact of playing the game in the derby.


Janell 

A good mark typically involves multiple decision points for the dog. For example,

- Do I angle the road
- Do I enter the cover
- Do I drive through the feather drift
- Do I fight the wind
- Do I angle the side hill

Generally speaking the more decision points (assuming that they work in concert with one another), the harder the mark

Where water marks are concerned, the decision points often center around
- Where do I enter the water
- Where do I exit the water

If you make your entries and exits square, you eliminate decisions for the dog - and simplify the mark. If you make the entries and exits angled, more decisions are required and the mark is more difficult. So you can tailor your mark to suit your purposes by adding or subtracting decision points.

I think that there is a difference in cheaty marks (see red below) and angle entry/exit marks (see black below). There have been many diagrams, but mostly I recall the marks as involving angle entry/exit, not cheating


Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jerry Beil said:


> In this scenario, wouldn't up the hill to the left be better than up the hill to the right? Up the hill toward the right side is going to reward the dogs that square the bank and run up the hill. Seems like the red boxes on my diagram are going to be areas that dogs end up that square the bank and drive up the hill. The left side red box is going to be the dog that squares to the dam on the left and then goes right on the dam and up the hill. If you put a bird in those boxes dogs are going to luck into them sometimes. Seems like you'd want to put the birds where even if the dog squares the swim, he has to correct his line when he hits the land in order to get to the mark.
> 
> On my M1, to go to the mark the dog has to go through or around the cattails on the island. He can't square the swim and luck into the bird running up the hill. On the F2, if he exits on the dam and runs to the right he has to make the right decision to correct to the left instead of driving up the hill. Both are left to right so that dogs that run to the gun will end up short of the bird.
> 
> View attachment 22214


Jerry 

Some thoughts for you to consider:

1. What is the impact of the green depression on M1?
2. If you move M1 up the hill and then throw down hill, will the dog run to the guns and miss the bird?
3. If you push the flyer deeper, I think you give the dogs more room to err, and use more memory time (which will help make M1 harder)
4. You could shoot F2B instead

As a general comment, I think that - with a good arm - if you can throw from up high with visible guns into a good patch of cover down hill, the dogs will run to the guns and hunt them. With a flyer at F2B, the flyer crates and feather drift may keep dogs behind F2B and may even cause them to drive over the hill

Ted


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted, it looks to me that Yellow M1 is thrown at the water from the top of the hill. Are you implying to throw Yellow M1 at the water thus toward the line?




Ted Shih said:


> Jerry
> 
> Some thoughts for you to consider:
> 
> ...


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> Jerry
> 
> Some thoughts for you to consider:
> 
> ...


Replies to the questions for me to consider...

1. What is the impact of the green depression on M1?
JB - I don't know without seeing it. It would be likely to at least deflect a dog, but unless it's more substantial than it looks, I'd think the dogs would drive up the hill anyway.
2. If you move M1 up the hill and then throw down hill, will the dog run to the guns and miss the bird?
JB - unless they marked the fall well. But I think you'd know that from my positions - they might exit square at the gun, but if they marked the fall, they'd take an angle to it instead of driving up. If you move up the hill and throw down, a dog that runs under the arc is going to scent the bird on the way past perhaps.
3. If you push the flyer deeper, I think you give the dogs more room to err, and use more memory time (which will help make M1 harder)
JB - I agree
4. You could shoot F2B instead
JB - which would be harder.

My aim wasn't to make it has hard as possible, but to make it fairly hard and also be able to tell which dogs are marking and which ones got lucky. I wouldn't expect straight lines, but I would expect the dogs to go to the bird upon exit from the water and not push straight up the hill from wherever they exited.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

As a judge I wanna know what a guy has to do to get a flyer in the last series of the derby?? Doesn't happen up here very often, Iv'e been shot down every time I have asked for one..


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Todd, I will be sure you get one at MFTA!!!




Todd Caswell said:


> As a judge I wanna know what a guy has to do to get a flyer in the last series of the derby?? Doesn't happen up here very often, Iv'e been shot down every time I have asked for one..


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Good Dogs, I think the depression helps the dogs get your flyer. If they flare it, where do they go?
> 
> 
> View attachment 22205


Did not pick up the depression. Yes, pups are more likely to square the hill which would put them in or near the AOF. Can't diagram on my tablet but moving the flyer slightly left and shooting the bird R to L angle back up the hill would reward the dogs that take the angle and hold the sidehill.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> *Ted, it looks to me that Yellow M1 is thrown at the water from the top of the hill. Are you implying to throw Yellow M1 at the water thus toward the line?*


I have been patiently waiting all day for a response to this important question. I see a bird thrown IN, in the derby kinda "tricky" for young dogs..


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> I have been patiently waiting all day for a response to this important question. I see a bird thrown IN, in the derby kinda "tricky" for young dogs..


I agree. You won't see a bird thrown toward the line in a trial in judging. I don't like it in hunt tests either. I also don't like a bird thrown straight back. Ever sit behind home plate at a baseball game? Every high pop out to 2nd base looks like it's going out of the park. You, and the dog, need to see it somewhat from the side to judge the depth accurately. 

Btw, that one in the pic appears right to left and angle back to me. But I didn't draw it so not sure.

I did notice a couple other arcs with birds thrown to the right that appeared contrary (require dog to exit the water short of reaching a gunner). Any thoughts on that from the folks following this thread?


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

I would like to thank Ted an all for his time, trouble and effort that goes into these threads. I will also add he was kind enough to divulge some of his expertise to us rookies in the first derby I ran, how to read and handle the hazards of the series, after we ran the series of course. A very generous act. Thank you Ted.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Daren Galloway said:


> I would like to thank Ted an all for his time, trouble and effort that goes into these threads. I will also add he was kind enough to divulge some of his expertise to us rookies in the first derby I ran, how to read and handle the hazards of the series, after we ran the series of course. A very generous act. Thank you Ted.


In agree with what you said, but at least understand those who have questions and express their reasons why.
The questions we ask makes us better in the game.  Just saying.


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## H2O_Control_guy (Jul 14, 2009)

All I've enjoyed this, thank you for doing it. Please continue as you find time.


John Buesgens


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

H2O_Control_guy said:


> All I've enjoyed this, thank you for doing it. Please continue as you find time.
> 
> 
> John Buesgens


Agree I have enjoyed the pictures w/ explanations. Thanks


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

BJGatley said:


> In agree with what you said, but at least understand those who have questions and express their reasons why.
> The questions we ask makes us better in the game.  Just saying.


I said nothing to the contrary.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Don't forget to get live experience instead of just drawings, lessons of what dogs do stay with you longer, experience is still the best teacher...and make better judges....Randy


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wade said:


> While judging one of my very first Derby stakes, in the 3rd series I had planned on cutting a corner of water. The person (RVB) who was my co-judge, thankfully, and who has been in this game longer than most on this board told me that day we weren't going to do that. He went on to say "put a little water in front of these young dogs and watch what happens".
> He moved us within 10 yards of the shore, which was basically a swim by pond in shape, put 2 birds in the field one thrown right and one thrown left. I never told him this but have told this to others, I looked at this set up and said to myself, "man, we aren't going to get anything out of this". Well, RVB knew WTH was going on and I certainly didn't, suffice it to say the judges were in charge after this set up. I learned a very valuable lesson that day. You do NOT have to set up cheaty stuff to get what you think you need.
> 
> With all due respect to everyone, everything that has been set up so far is why I believe a lot of people stay away from the Derby stake. Long angle entries, tiny little slices of water to cut, tiny little pieces of points to go over, CRAZY. The Derby stake is not suppose to be about "trained" responses. It is suppose to be about "natural" responses.
> ...


Hi Wade, As requested via PM, would you please diagram this set of RVB marks for me? 

I'm not asking you to spend time drawing on a computer. If you check your PM you will find the same requests there, with my cell number. Even if you can just sketch on a napkin and text, I'd appreciate it.

Thank you sincerely, Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Is there anyone reading this that is aware of the setup that Wade is mentioning that can diagram what this is about?

I'm genuinely curious to see what this means. Sometimes the written word just doesn't fill in the picture.

Thanks, Chris


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Some people prefer to criticize other people's work to presenting their own work for criticism. I suspect Wade is one of those.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Some people prefer to criticize other people's work to presenting their own work for criticism. I suspect Wade is one of those.


The RVB work reads very impressively! I just don't see it in my mind's eye. 

I would love to see this diagrammed.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Here is my attempt to set 2 marks.


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