# Yellow Lab stole my intentions! What now?



## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

*Yellow Lab stole my intentions! What now? *UPDATE POST-131**

This is a bit long I suppose only for the super enthused lab lover folks to read lol

First let me say that I know picking a pup can be hit or miss regardless of any kind of intention the pup shows at 7 weeks. I’ve heard the story of using a duck wing to see which one goes for it best/faster or brings it back and then the dog ends up a lemon while the laziest pup in the group ends up the Champ. All that aside, I have to say it was still intriguing to see what this pup I’m about to describe did yesterday while I was there to pick one out.

I’ve been to a couple of litters so far and have been actively searching for a good Hunt Dog with a decent pedigree. Not so much one filled with Champions but at a minimum Field/Duck - Hunt/Work dogs not just pets. These pups Great-Great Grandsire on the Sire’s side to the top is EBONSTAR LEAN MAC and on the Dam Sire’s Side to the Top is ‘NITRO’ YELLOWSTONE’S TNT EXPLOSION. Compared to those two Stars it’s been tapering off but still a lot of really good dogs in their blood line recently too. ANYWAY!

I went to see these pups with the strong intent of picking up a black male. He was actually the only black male left out of just two thrown. The other two blacks were females and the rest yellow.

I handled all of them to include the females even though I had no intent on picking a female. While they were all playing and the owner and I were just talking I gave a little whistle while I was kneeling. Immediately this Yellow Male runs right to me. I extend my hand to his head and he sits perfectly and looks right into my eyes as I pet him. The other pups paid no attention and kept playing. We talk, I handle the pups more. They all kind of move towards their kennel under the heat lamp. I give a little whistle again and here comes the Yellow Male again except this time he SITS FIRST before I can extend my hand to him and waits for the Love. Surely not mind blowing I know that, but with the rest of them just mulling around I thought it was pretty neat.

On top of that the Black Male was smaller than this Yellow Male by about 1 ½ shoulder to shoulder. This Yellow had a demeanor about him that was unlike the rest. He seemed much more confident. I also saw him a couple times put his nose to the ground quickly, curl his tail and start sniff hunting something, not sure what but after 10 seconds or so he’d go back to playing. The Black Male also was the runt of what was left of the litter. He wasn’t the Litter Runt but was #2 according to the owner. The black male was also smaller than his two black sisters and his yellow sister. Definitely smaller than the Yellow Lab that came to me and about the same if not a tad shorter than the other Yellow Male. The Yellow also had a better feeling coat than the black.

Sorry for all the repeat I’m trying to be as informative as possible. 

So in the end the Yellow stole all my black male intentions away. I snapped a couple picks to try and compare them but think I failed to get a good one to go off of. Either way here they are.

I left a collar on the Yellow Male to somewhat reserve him for a few days while I decide. The owner had no problem at all and didn’t even ask for a down payment. Just said let me know in a few days and if you decide not I’ll mail your collar to you.

*So what do you guys think? Any TIPS on picking a pup? How should I decide Yellow or Black in this case?*

Here's the two rascals;










*UPDATE - 1-21-12*

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## 54111 (Apr 20, 2011)

Let me make it easy on you! Just get both of them... Look at them, do you really want to separate the both of them?


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

Looks like to me unless you are dead set against yellow you have picked or been picked by your pup. This happens quite often.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

I have always gone by the "which one responds to you" thought process. I think that shows some basic initiative, and the yellow did. 

Also, just because he is yellow does not mean he can't perform, whether it be the games, or hunting. If you need a current yellow to compare, just take a look at POW. He is yellow, FC, etc. 

Yes, this sport (and public) thinks that the black lab is the only lab around, but in the end, it all comes down to what you think. And based on the fact that the yellow pup responded to your little whistle que, I think you have your answer.

Good luck


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## Larry Thompson1 (Apr 19, 2011)

Just look at my avatar and tell me yellows can't perform as hunting dogs. Thats one days worth of shooting and that little fellow picked up all them birds and wanted more,


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

vtirgari said:


> Let me make it easy on you! Just get both of them... Look at them, do you really want to separate the both of them?


I was just thinking the same thing! Two pups are better than one!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

the yeller one picked you so run with it.
and welcome to RTF


.


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## Duxbwar (Jun 23, 2009)

Some of the best dogs I have ever owned "Picked Me" if color really doesn't matter to you then I would take the yellow in a heart beat. Looks like a good pedigree, we see a lot of Nitro dogs in my area being that he only lived about 200 miles away.....strong, strong dog around water, and Mac, well we don't need to talk about him.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Forget about the color, choose the pup you like, I have all three colors and none of them realize what color they are when it comes to the birds. BUT, I have to throw this out there, given what I see in those photos and what you said, there are a couple flags to me. Have you checked the clearances on the parents of the pups, hips/elbows on OFA, eyes have AVCO exam or CERF number? One parent at least is tested and clear of EIC/CNM? I know you have your heart set, but just saying, make sure your eyes are open as well. Good luck and have fun!


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> the yeller one picked you so run with it.
> and welcome to RTF
> 
> 
> .


 Can't be too sure, take a look at the eye contact from the black one in the first pic. 


Good luck with your future pup!


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I wouldn't let the size difference be a factor I had a litter and the yellow male was much bigger than the black male when they grew up the black ended up much bigger than the yellow. I would go back and see them a few more times you may find the black may respond to you more then the yellow at that age they change from week to week good luck with which ever pup you chose.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Have you checked the clearances on the parents of the pups, hips/elbows on OFA, eyes have AVCO exam or CERF number? One parent at least is tested and clear of EIC/CNM?


Got to agree with this, first hand experience there is nothing worse than learning later on of a genetic career ending problem..... That would stink...

Agree with you & Ken, the dog chose you it seems, I would go with that!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

7pntail said:


> Can't be too sure, take a look at the eye contact from the black one in the first pic.


Can you expound? 




Rainmaker said:


> given what I see in those photos and what you said, there are a couple flags to me.


What do you see? 

Gotta help me out here guys, I'm not seeing what you see when it comes to genetics etc. Thanks


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

War Hammer said:


> Can you expound?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't want to rain on your parade and trying to tread lightly here, just don't want anyone coming later and asking about EIC or CNM or having problems with a puppy. Have you seen the health clearances for both parents of this litter? Not just been told that everything is okay but actually gone on the OFA site and looked at the hips/elbows? Or have been shown the actual test results for EIC or CNM or paperwork showing eye exams?


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## skelso (Apr 29, 2009)

Make sure you ask the breeded LOTS of questions. If he's done much breeding he should be able to give you some good insight on how their temperment will turn out.

I learned this lesson the hard way!

I was set on getting a chocolate female. Waited 2 years for the breeder I had picked to finaly have a litter that had one in it. When I went to pick her up he said "She's too much pup for you (This is my first full blood lab). She's going to be very high spirited". When playing with the puppies she paid no attention to us but wanted to run off and do her own thing. When I picked her up she struggled to get away (to this day she doesn't like to be pet, scratched, brushed, etc). He tried and tried to get me to take a chocolate male but I wasn't having it. My mind was made up. I ended up with the female and my buddy bought the male.

They are 3 1/2 years old now and my girl has tried my patience every day. She's stubborn, hard headed, and always restless. I can work her till I'm sure she's worn out, bring her in the house where she'll lay on her bed but as soon as I get up off the couch she runs to the door ready to go again.

The male my buddy bought... He's very laid back, almost a bit timid for my taste. He's content to lay around all day but is raring to go when he knows it's time to work.

In the end they have both turned out to be fine hunters but while my experience has been a test of wills on most days, my buddy's experience has been a breeze.

I wouldn't change my decision if I could (I'm more hard headed than she is) but I did learn that it's true an experienced breeder can tell a lot about a pup even at 7 - 8 weeks.

So my advice is ask lots of questions and go with whichever one feels right to you. It's your dog and god willing a decision you'll be stuck with for quite a while so what you're happy with is of most importance.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Make sure they have all their shots also I notice they still have their dew claws usually they clip those off when you take them in for their first vet check.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Rainmaker said:


> I don't want to rain on your parade and trying to tread lightly here, just don't want anyone coming later and asking about EIC or CNM or having problems with a puppy. Have you seen the health clearances for both parents of this litter? Not just been told that everything is okay but actually gone on the OFA site and looked at the hips/elbows? Or have been shown the actual test results for EIC or CNM or paperwork showing eye exams?


You said,
"given what I see in those photos and what you said, there are a couple flags to me"

I guess I was wondering what you see in the photo's and what did I say that leads you to have cause for concern?

Thanks


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

WarHammer, I think I see Dew Claw's on these pups, I think that is what some folks see and possibly are concerned that other things may not have been checked. I could be wrong obviously, other things people see are those things not mentioned, i.e. Clearances, etc... 

My first lab is a wonderful dog and I would not trade him for the world, but when he turned two and I learned his hips were severe Hip Dysplasia with degenerative joint desease, my heart broke for a few days as I felt sorry for dog and sorry for myself... Needless to say I am now on the wagon of belief that clearances are in order to make the lifes of these wonderful creatures the best they can be.. Obviously this is my personal choice, and I hold nothing against anyone elses opinions on this (having been on both sides of the subject in my life). Hope this helps!


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I would get the one with its dew claws removed


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Dews weren't removed, which isn't everybody's thing, but most field breeders do remove them and often, at least for me, seeing dews not removed is a tell for a byb. Collar on the black male is filthy, but they could have just been rolling in something and some are more obsessive about cleaning our pups than normal.  It didn't sound like many of the pups were spoken for if you are having your choice of them all at this age? Just little things is all, nothing wrong looking with the puppies themselves. If you want to post or pm the registered names of the parents, we could show you how to look them up if you haven't already. If you're happy with what you saw, that's just fine, take the pup you want and have fun.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

savage25xtreme said:


> I would get the one with its dew claws removed


My older boy has his due claws, some say it helps them when they try to crawl out of ICE.. The again I won't hunt when its ICE, too darn cold for me!

I prolly should have kept my typing to myself!!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

I know the pups were just bought to the Vet last Tuesday for their 6 week check-up.

He did not request Dew Claws removed. 

I understand that to be one of 'THOSE' debates. 

Where I Duck Hunt I've checked almost every dog I came in contact with this year and only ONE dog out of about a dozen, had it's dew claws removed. :2c:


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

War Hammer said:


> I know the pups were just bought to the Vet last Tuesday for their 6 week check-up.
> 
> He did not request Dew Claws removed.
> 
> ...


Yep, lots don't remove them or do much of anything else, you asked what I saw, that's what I saw. You can check on the health clearances or not, up to you. You can lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink, so good luck to you with your new buddy. BTW, dews are removed shortly after birth, not at the six week checkup.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Rainmaker said:


> BTW, dews are removed shortly after birth, not at the six week checkup.


 
Usually at 3 days right? He said he just didn't request them to remove them.


So what's this guy talking about?



7pntail; said:


> Can't be too sure, take a look at the eye contact from the black one in the first pic. :wink:


 





/


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Removing the dew claws is a good idea they tend to catch on things and if you have ever seen a dog rip one off it's a lot of screaming and blood.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

War Hammer said:


> So what's this guy talking about?


With John,
I often ask the same ;-)


.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

War Hammer said:


> Usually at 3 days right? He said he just didn't request them to remove them.
> 
> 
> So what's this guy talking about?
> ...


I'm never quite sure what 7pintail is talking about all the time, or whether he's joking. I'd assume it is the black pup making eye contact with someone in the one photo, looking up at them. There is zilch to be told from the photos about the pup personalities. Don't take everything on this forum quite so literally, some are just going to joke around but until you've been on awhile, you won't get the RTF personalities and can't tell inflection from the written posts either. Unless someone uses lots of those annoying emoticons.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

LOL @ Ken, we were thinking the same thing about John. ;-)


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

lol Gotcha!

Thanks for the help folks!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

7pntail said:


> Can't be too sure, *take a look at the eye contact *from the black one in the first pic.
> 
> 
> Good luck with your future pup!


I noticed that to, but I really like the story about how that little yellow responds to the OP.

John


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> I noticed that to, but I really like the story about how that little yellow responds to the OP.
> 
> John


 
Yea he was looking at my son while I snapped the picture.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Scott Parker said:


> Make sure they have all their shots also I notice they still have their dew claws usually they clip those off when you take them in for their first vet check.


Good eye, Scott. Our pups go to the vet for a check up within 3 days after being born. Dew claws are removed on the 3rd day (and no later). 

I would ask the breeder why these pups still have dew claws. Per your photo, these pups are now older and to have them removed by your vet is going to cost you. It won't be a simple snip by the vet. 

Also, the best advice given to you by several people is to make sure both sire and dam have their health clearances (hips, elbows, eyes, CMN and EIC). You have the pedigree; look up the sire and dam on OFA. Hips, Elbows, and CERF (eyes) should be there. CMN and EIC may not. CMN has a website which contains a white list (those dogs who have been tested and are cleared). EIC does not. Ask the breeder to see copies of the clearances.

Helen


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Scott Parker said:


> Make sure they have all their shots also I notice they still have their dew claws usually they clip those off when you take them in for their first vet check.


Usually at 3 days of age. 

The way this was written, this new owner might think he was going to have them clipped off when he took the pup in for first shots. That would be disaster at that age.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Usually at 3 days of age.
> 
> The way this was written, this new owner might think he was going to have them clipped off when he took the pup in for first shots. That would be disaster at that age.


LOL, yep, good luck with that. 

I don't personally care about dews being left on or not, have had two Labs with them and they went through HT and hunting just fine. I would prefer not to do them on my litters just because I hate the process but it is the status quo with field Labs and the majority expect it. I'd not put an older pup/dog through the surgery of having them removed, personally, just because I don't like doing surgery without good reason, but again, just a personal decision, some don't like the risk of dews being left on either.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> Usually at 3 days right? He said he just didn't request them to remove them.


*Deciphering Clearance Information for Novice Retriever Puppy Buyers 101* _and why puppies that have not had dew claws removed should be a warning_

Most breeders will do the following prior to breeding: xray the dam (and sire if they own him) hips & elbows and had them evaluted/rated by OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals); the eyes examined/evaluated by a board-certified eye vet, and gotten the breed's recommended genetic testing for inherited conditions. And they'll use a sire that has been similarly 'vetted'. When pups are born, they routinely remove the dew claws within a few days. While a few (a minority of retriever breeders) do not remove the dew claws, often siting a popular study done on some agility dogs, these breeders will explain upfront why they left them on and be quick to point out the clearances/titles/attributes the parents have. In other words, dew claws left on without a detailed explanation should make you question what else they didn't bother to do.

It is not sufficient to accept the owners' word or even a claim his vet agreed the parents have good hips because they've never had any lameness problems. While some may not know better, some are simply too cheap to get this done, but in either case you should pass on the litter and keep looking til you find one that does do these tests. Most incidences of hip dysplasia won't be evident until the dog is older; sometimes an xray reveals the hips/elbows can be a train wreck yet the dog has no symptoms. Which is great for the dog; it can live a normal active life but it should not be bred, since bad hips and/or elbows are hereditary. Hence the insistence (and requirement for anyone advertising on this site) that any breeding candidate should have an evaluation of both hips and elbows via xrays that have been examined by an experienced radiologist. It's always a good idea to look the parents up on the OFA site www.offa.org; you can put the dog's registered name in the search feature and verify the hips/elbow ratings on the parents as well as the family history (grandparents, siblings, etc.) If the dog isn't in the OFA database and you were told it had good or excellent hips---well, speaking for myself, I would not buy from anyone who'd lie about that!

The other tests (for Labs, CNM, PRA & EIC) are genetic tests for inherited disorders that can prevent a dog from living an active healthy life; some of these conditions can even be fatal. All are recessive conditions which means the parents can be carriers (have one gene, and will not be affected) but they could produce at risk/affected pups. It's an acceptable risk to buy from a breeding when only one dog has been tested if it tested clear for all, because that way while you may get a carrier you won't get an affected dog.

Most of us started with our first dog not knowing any of this stuff (especially those of us older than dirt that didn't have the internet!) and some of us even lucked out and got great dogs. Some learned the hard way (see Byron's post above). But with the availability of information and online resources, and the plethora of decent litters, especially Labradors, with cleared parents, there's simply no reason to take a chance on buying a puppy that you plan to enjoy for 12 years or more and lose it prematurely to a debilitating or even fatal problem the breeder could've prevented.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Kim don't they also send the dew claws in for EIC testing and I'm not sure but can you also test for CNM with dew claws.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Yes, the EIC test can be done on puppies with dew claws. When I had my dogs tested by U of MN it was only via blood work at the time. I have just learned that the EIC test can now be done via cheek swabs.

CNM is cheek swabs at Alfort.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Scott Parker said:


> Kim don't they also send the dew claws in for EIC testing and I'm not sure but can you also test for CNM with dew claws.


U of MN/VDL added dewclaws for EIC testing, as well as blood or cheek swabs. Alfort only does cheek swabs for CNM, last time I looked anyway. I don't know what the other labs will do with dews since I don't use them.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Dewclaws shmewclaws. Dewclaws on could be a sign or a BYB or could be the sign of a breeder who has made the intentional decision to leave them on. It's not as common in the FT world but growing more common amongst those of us who compete in other performance events. I want dewclaws on my pups as do many of my clients.... Perhaps a bigger question would be why so many puppies available and ready to go? Are the puppies unmarketable for some reason? 

Since it's too late to worry about dewclaws with this litter anyway, I would look into the health clearances of the parent dogs and make sure that those were taken care of prior to breeding. Then, if those are good, you like what both parent dogs bring to the table, and color is not a huge concern.... go with the pup that picked you!


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

War Hammer said:


> Can you expound?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


War hammer, sorry to confuse. They are both very nice looking dogs. Was bringing levity to your choice ( a fault of mine) You can't go wrong with either. I saw the eyes and thought they were directed at you. Does that really matter , no. Being color blind here: I wanted a black male too, two years ago. Picked the most spirited one in the litter. Been kickin myself ever since. lOVE HIM THOUGHAnd yes, another yellow lab. Not about color. It is about connection.

I used feathers, frozen birds, loud noises and ultimately my wife said we want that one. They were all great pups. 

You have great choices. Enjoy your pup! again sorry, for the confusion. Go with the pup that connects with you, or you with the pup. GOOD LUCK! 



Take care, John


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

War Hammer said:


> I know the pups were just bought to the Vet last Tuesday for their 6 week check-up.
> 
> He did not request Dew Claws removed.
> 
> ...


I guess this is just preference but I know a guy that had a black lab female that had her dew claws and she was kept in an outside kennel run. She loved to jump up onto the fence when she saw someone pull up or a deer in the field. As a result, one day one of her dew claws got caught up on the fence on her way down and it ripped it out! Cost him an e-vet visit and ALOT of pain for the dog. So if you want to keep it in an outdoor run, you may want to get them removed. My :2c: Good luck though! Both pups look great!

FWIW I was deadset on this one female in the litter (I only had the choice of a couple) I looked at last then the breeder brought one out (that he wasn't going to let me look at) and handed me that pup. She licked my nose right away and it was over-she's now my avatar (she went after the pigeon with more gusto and brought it back each time too). I think they pick us


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

RxRatedLabs said:


> I guess this is just preference but I know a guy that had a black lab female that had her dew claws and she was kept in an outside kennel run. She loved to jump up onto the fence when she saw someone pull up or a deer in the field. As a result, one day one of her dew claws got caught up on the fence on her way down and it ripped it out! Cost him an e-vet visit and ALOT of pain for the dog. So if you want to keep it in an outdoor run, you may want to get them removed. My :2c: Good luck though! Both pups look great!
> 
> FWIW I was deadset on this one female in the litter (I only had the choice of a couple) I looked at last then the breeder brought one out (that he wasn't going to let me look at) and handed me that pup. She licked my nose right away and it was over-she's now my avatar (she went after the pigeon with more gusto and brought it back each time too). I think they pick us


 
I most probably would get them removed when he's old enough. I've heard you can just keep them trimmed and like I said I know more dogs with them on and have never torn than dogs that have them and have had one tear. Just rare I guess, but avoidable too.

I'll see the pups again today and get to spend another hour with them.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

War Hammer said:


> I most probably would get them removed when he's old enough. I've heard you can just keep them trimmed and like I said I know more dogs with them on and have never torn than dogs that have them and have had one tear. Just rare I guess, but avoidable too.
> 
> I'll see the pups again today and get to spend another hour with them. I'm trying NOT to let perfect get in the way of good b/c another breeder has an interesting litter that was kind of pulling on me. See HERE
> 
> I just keep going back to having Nitro Yellowstone TNT Explosion on the Dam side, with Ebonstar Lean Mac & Chena River Chavez on the Sire side. Even if that far back.


Yea I saw that other thread. Good luck but I'm sure you will LOVE your pup and he will love you no matter where he comes from!!  . They sure are cute pups and all this talk and puppy pics is making me want another. I have a black and a yellow so it's all about preference for you. They are both some cute boys though. Good luck and happy picking! Let us know what you decide and post more pics when you get him please!

(As for the dew claws thing I was just trying to give an example of what can happen if they have them but I have had dogs in the past with them that never had problems either so who knows.)


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

War Hammer said:


> I most probably would get them removed when he's old enough. I've heard you can just keep them trimmed and like I said I know more dogs with them on and have never torn than dogs that have them and have had one tear. Just rare I guess, but avoidable too.
> 
> I'll see the pups again today and get to spend another hour with them. I'm trying NOT to let perfect get in the way of good b/c another breeder has an interesting litter that was kind of pulling on me. See HERE
> 
> I just keep going back to having Nitro Yellowstone TNT Explosion on the Dam side, with Ebonstar Lean Mac & Chena River Chavez on the Sire side. Even if that far back.


You might as well remove your link since you deleted that thread. Guess you didn't like the answers you got? Good luck with your pup regardless.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Rainmaker said:


> You might as well remove your link since you deleted that thread. Guess you didn't like the answers you got? Good luck with your pup regardless.


Yea, you ask a simple question with _two answers_ only and some folks still can't follow simple instructions and just have to create their own answer. 

Meh, it's no big deal, lesson learned. I'm catching on quick to the (who's who ) of this particular website forum.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

War Hammer said:


> Yea, you ask a simple question with _two answers_ only and some folks still can't follow simple instructions and just have to create their own answer.
> 
> Meh, it's no big deal, lesson learned. I'm catching on quick to the (who's who ) of this particular website forum.


I really hope you do learn something, that's what it's all about, the dogs. You post on a forum like this, where people are nuts about their dogs, two litters that have one parent out of four with hips done, one grandparent out of 8 with hips done, zero other clearances, both sires are very young, you think no one's going to mention those little items? We CARE about our dogs. So we get testy when others apparently don't.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Rainmaker said:


> I really hope you do learn something, that's what it's all about, the dogs.


Which is why the pup I get will have ALL his Certifications done ASAP.

If I ever stud him out, the upmost requirements will be the same for the Dam. This pups breeder might not have done the best job, but it's got to begin somewhere. 

I suppose I'm set on salvaging this pups bloodline by restoring order in properly maintaining his health. 

Hopefully and most likely, he's clear on all the above and thus it begins with him.

;-)


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

War Hammer, What would you do if you got a pup that's dysplastic? Is EIC affected? Bad eyes? Has CNM? It's a guessing game when the parents have NO clearances at all.I'm not saying that those things will happen but the likelihood is much greater when there are too many unknowns.You have chosen to ignore very wise counsel.I hope you don't learn the hard way. 

If you have already gotten your pup I hope it's the best one you've ever had.


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## BOGART62 (May 25, 2006)

Getting in a little late on the orig. post. I like the fact that the yellow pup responded to you. That happened to me years ago up at Mary Howleys. I went with the yellow and man what a great ride. Best of luck.............
Kent


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

War Hammer said:


> Which is why the pup I get will have ALL his Certifications done ASAP.
> 
> If I ever stud him out, the upmost requirements will be the same for the Dam. This pups breeder might not have done the best job, but it's got to begin somewhere.
> 
> ...


War Hammer, I hope you are as lucky with this pup as we were with our first dog. this was years before Al Gore invented the internet, so there were no retriever forums. We were super nieve about blood lines, pups and health clearances, so we did what you did, visited a litter of seven week old Golden pups, one picked us out as that yellow did to you and we took him home. 

There was no puppy contract, dew claws still intact, breeders didn't even know their own dogs pedigree let alone health clearances. There were so many red flags that anyone who knew anything about buying a dog would have run away and not looked back, but as I said we were nieve, so didn't know better. On top of that there is a huge spilt in the Golden breed, knowing what I know now, we were very lucky to get a dog that retrieved at all, or willing to swim after ducks.

As it turned out, despite these breeders lack of knowledge, both of their dogs were pretty well bred with tracking and obedience titles one generation back. This dog ended up earning JH, SH, Master, NAHRA Started and Intermediate titles, hunted until age eleven, had OFA Good hips, (the vet thought excellent), when I finally xrayed him at age eleven. Jackie Mertens met him at age eleven, fell in love with him and wanted to breed to him. He was bred three times after he turned eleven, each litter was eleven pups. Like I said we were lucky.

Just like I did, you have broken a lot of rules that experienced dog people adhere to, that doesn't mean your pup wont grow up to be the greatest hunting dog ever, have a long healthy life and be a wonderful companion. BTW you will need to wait until your pup turns two for most of the joint clearances, other DNA related test can be done anytime. I became much more educated after that first dog and have had good luck with the rest of my dogs by following all the guidlines that people are beating you up over.

Love your dog, train your dog, take care of him for life and let the rest fall as it may.

John


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> Which is why the pup I get will have ALL his Certifications done ASAP.
> 
> If I ever stud him out, the upmost requirements will be the same for the Dam. This pups breeder might not have done the best job, but it's got to begin somewhere.
> 
> ...


Hopefully this post right here will serve to educate people what not to do.
1. How soon do you think you can get all those clearances done?
2. Don't look for a stud dog from parents and grandparents that are not tested and then base your thoughts that the bloodline is worth saving because Lean Mac is 4 generations back. Many byb have some good dogs way back-they often buy pups from someone that can't sell their pups for many reasons, but lack of health certs would be at the top of the list, and then they still give out full registration so the next idiot can breed. Look hard enough and you can find tested parents with the same individuals.
3. Don't fall for the puppy is cute-that's why they keep breeding.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

labsforme said:


> War Hammer, What would you do if you got a pup that's dysplastic? Is EIC affected? Bad eyes? Has CNM?
> 
> It's a guessing game when the parents have NO clearances at all.


1: (In jest) Make a post on here about having the only dog to fail on ALL Health Certifications at one time. Seriously, I think that's a little out there to think that could happen. However if it does the breeder has agreed to refund me the cost of at least the dog.

2: So when/if the breeder does get it done, now that it's on paper does is that supposed to make me feel better about my pup? Can dogs with Excellent Hips throw pups with bad hips? I've seen it. Refunds weren't given out for that either.

I mean the way some folks here talk the suggestion seems to be to cull the whole litter, get the parents Health Certs done and try again.

I mean seriously what should be the future of these pups?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> 1: (In jest) Make a post on here about having the only dog to fail on ALL Health Certifications at one time. Seriously, I think that's a little out there to think that could happen. *However if it does the breeder has agreed to refund me the cost of at least the dog.
> 
> *


Yes, they don't have certs so guarantee the pup will will pass all of them. All they want to do is get you to walk out that door with the pup and them with $$$ in hand. Is there a written guarantee? Probably not, and if there is, what are your chances they will actually give you your money back in 2 years. They will give you the old OFA excellent can produce dysplastic dogs line when they find out how many thousands of dollars hip surgery costs. Think about it. You also don't seem to know when you get some of these health certs.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

War Hammer. I said nothing about failures.I mentioned no clearances done.If I misspoke then I apologize.So did the breeder show all clearances on the litter? I'll pose the same what if.What if after having the tests done one or both of the parents fail in one or more areas? All we're trying to do is give a heads up on the best way to start out.It's a heart breaker when you have to deal with a dog you love and it has EIC. I have one that I got before there was a test or much known about it.I still have her and hunt her.I still did the research on what was available at the time on other clearances.She is spayed even though she has two HOF grand sires and the grand dams have produced national winners or finalists.I don't claim to know it all or even much.But I have listened and learned much from others here.
Perhaps this type of thread is why more of the long time RTFers have not posted.
Later and out,

Jeff G


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> War Hammer, I hope you are as lucky with this pup as we were with our first dog. this was years before Al Gore invented the internet, so there were no retriever forums. We were super nieve about blood lines, pups and health clearances, so we did what you did, visited a litter of seven week old Golden pups, one picked us out as that yellow did to you and we took him home.
> 
> There was no puppy contract, dew claws still intact, breeders didn't even know their own dogs pedigree let alone health clearances. There were so many red flags that anyone who knew anything about buying a dog would have run away and not looked back, but as I said we were nieve, so didn't know better. On top of that there is a huge spilt in the Golden breed, knowing what I know now, we were very lucky to get a dog that retrieved at all, or willing to swim after ducks.
> 
> ...


Well thanks John, that's the plan. 

It's not like I'm paying $1000 for the puppy. FAR From that. 
I don't want to spend that much on pup right now. I just want a Duck Dog to help me hunt. In a few years when my kids get older I'd love to take my time and do all the right things. For now this is what I want to afford and it's at an easy going price.

So like I said if the pup fails any test I'll get refunded for at least him. If he passes them all and the hips at 2 years GREAT!, imagine how nice that would be.

I could then have a health certified 2 year old.

Meh i'm not going to beat this up any more. I'm even getting pm's from several people about the obnoxious attutudes of some people on this board. 

Thanks again John!


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

If I might make a suggestion... some of the genetic tests can be done now. If the breeder is willing, you can eliminate some of the unknowns looming over this litter by sending in samples now, while the pup is still at the breeders. That way you won't start out with an 8 week old pup who already tests positive for something. This isn't unusual: in my breed (chessies) DM is a major concern, and people will put deposits on puppies based on whether they must have a DM clear pup, or if carrier is acceptable. Breeders test puppies so that their buyers will know what they're getting.

Buying a pup from a fully evaluated set of parents, grand parents, and great grandparents doesn't provide a 100% guarantee that a pup won't have hip or elbow problems, or be clear for other genetic tests, but it sure improves the odds.

I think what everyone's trying to say is that if you're trying to find a puppy with the best odds for a good long, healthy life, stick to breeders who can show that their puppies have a couple of generations of dogs with clearances. If the puppy that you're considering has stolen your heart, you can follow your heart, knowing that you may have to face some heartbreaking health problems and watch your dog be unable to do what you bought him for. It's a gamble either way, but the odds are a lot better with a pup that comes with clearances.

It sounds to me like you're taking the position that you're rescuing this pup... and there's nothing wrong with that. Rescue dogs from shelters are complete unknowns and yet people are encouraged to take them in all the time. Some of them are healthy, happy, and "the best dog we ever had." Others have a host of problems. We just want you to know what you're getting into.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

I have to ask again.

What do some of you suggest should be done with these pups?

This isn't some sort of Pro Breeder. He owns the Dam and Sire. Had the Dam first and bought the Sire to breed to her. He's not in it for the money and if I told you the price you'd know that for sure. He wanted a pup from these two and has already picked it out, the rest or up for grabs.

Hopefully that helps understand what's going on here. I'm not in a meeting with some Pro Breeders that's giving me the run around and or trying to get $1000 per pup. I know this guy and he's a man of his word. He's promised nothing and has openly showed me everything he has on these dogs. There's no scam here, nothing to hide.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

gardyner said:


> If I might make a suggestion... some of the genetic tests can be done now. If the breeder is willing, you can eliminate some of the unknowns looming over this litter by sending in samples now, while the pup is still at the breeders. That way you won't start out with an 8 week old pup who already tests positive for something. This isn't unusual: in my breed (chessies) DM is a major concern, and people will put deposits on puppies based on whether they must have a DM clear pup, or if carrier is acceptable. Breeders test puppies so that their buyers will know what they're getting.
> 
> Buying a pup from a fully evaluated set of parents, grand parents, and great grandparents doesn't provide a 100% guarantee that a pup won't have hip or elbow problems, or be clear for other genetic tests, but it sure improves the odds.
> 
> ...


 
Well said, thank you


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

War Hammer said:


> I have to ask again.
> 
> What do some of you suggest should be done with these pups?
> 
> ...


As long as you're mentally prepared if it doesn't work out well in the end. 

The other issue is this breeder, as nice a guy as he is, he shouldn't be encouraged to breed. "Not being in it for the money" is neither here nor there, number one, a breeder should be in it for the breed. The breeder should really analyze his dogs and only breed from an educated standpoint, with the intent of improving the breed. It doesn't sound like this guy fits that bill.

John


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> It sounds to me like you're taking the position that you're rescuing this pup... and there's nothing wrong with that.


People that rescue pups don't talk about making them into stud dogs and rescuing the bloodline in the same paragraph.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> As long as you're mentally prepared if it doesn't work out well in the end.
> 
> The other issue is this breeder, as nice a guy as he is, he shouldn't be encouraged to breed. "Not being in it for the money" is neither here nor there, number one, a breeder should be in it for the breed. The breeder should really analyze his dogs and only breed from an educated standpoint, with the intent of improving the breed. It doesn't sound like this guy fits that bill.
> 
> John


 
And I agree. 

He knew what he had work wise in both dogs and knows both dogs parents are and have been great Hunt Dogs. So he bred them to get a puppy out of them. Probably the best description of a backyard breeder ever.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Why don't you go down to the pound, get one?? If you want to rescue. No doubt what the fate of those dogs will be.
Oh no, wait, no, that won't work, because...



> War Hammer said:
> 
> 
> > If I ever stud him out
> ...


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> People that rescue pups don't talk about making them into stud dogs and rescuing the bloodline in the same paragraph. Evidently the powers that be want to sustain these types of postings as examples to the board. So be it.


lol some of you folks are so uptight. Relax will ya.

I never said I was making him to a Stud dog. Funny thing about adding words to someone's mouth on the internet is that you can just go back and actually see what was said. Lets take a look.



> *If I ever* stud him out, the *upmost requirements* will be the same for the Dam. This pups breeder might not have done the best job, but it's got to begin somewhere.
> 
> I suppose I'm set on salvaging this pups bloodline by* restoring order in properly maintaining his health.*
> 
> *Hopefully and most likely, he's clear on all the above* and thus it begins with him.


So in two years or so if all is well and hips are finally cleared. I could quite possibly have a registered 2 year old healthy dog. With training under his belt added on and if someone wanted to aquire him as a stud, why not Nancy?

What do you suggest should be done with this litter of pups?


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

What do you suggest should be done with this litter of pups?[/QUOTE]

Find good homes for them and have them fixed along with the parents.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Scott Parker said:


> I would go back and see them a few more times


Oh yeah, a breeder has time for every puppy owner to come visit multiple times. Please. 

War Hammer, there is nothing to "preserve" in those bloodlines. What should be done with that litter of pups? They should be sold dirt cheap on Limited Registration so folks who purchase the pups don't follow in the footsteps of the irresponsible breeder from which you plan to purchase your pup.

You are getting all kinds of advice from experienced folks here and yet like many new folks who join this forum, you already have your mind made up as to what you're going to do (at least regarding going with this particular litter) so why even bother responding to this thread?

"Some of you folks are so uptight." Nice way to make friends here. Or not.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Melanie while I'm not a breeder I did have one litter of pups out of my dog years ago and we had several people come more then once to look at the pups which didn't bother me at all I just wanted to make sure the people were happy with the one they picked out the pups personalty's seem to change from week to week.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Melanie Foster said:


> War Hammer, there is nothing to "preserve" in those bloodlines.
> 
> "Some of you folks are so uptight." Nice way to make friends here. Or not.


Sure there is, can his(Puppy) bloodline not end up with clear health starting with him? It's possible no?

Sorry Melaine, I don't back down from attitudes. Surely your not suggesting the comment I responded to was put towards me in a _friendly_ manner? I think we know that wasn't the case 

I've actually made quite a few friends here and recieved several PM's warning me about particular folks on this forum and their attitudes.

You are also somewhat right about the 'Why Respond to this thread'.

*This topic was about a great experience I had with a pup.* I shared it knowing it would make folks smile. Tell me, WHO turned it into something than what the OP was intended to be??? Me the new member or the supposed Veteran Members who couldn’t help but pick a bone about his dew claws? or his parents not having health certs, or whatever else/ I meant that rhetorical, joking/haha funny-funny  

*Wipes-Brow* So serious on this board... 

So much for my awesome feel good story right? jeez....





/


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

War Hammer said:


> I have to ask again.
> 
> What do some of you suggest should be done with these pups?
> 
> ...


The bottom line here is that you have now learned a whole lot more than you ever wanted to know  about the kinds of things that a responsible breeder must consider when producing a litter of puppies. And this is why the puppies they produce often cost $1000.

I don't consider myself a "professional" breeder ... once heard someone describe "professional" as one who gets paid for their services. There are some "professionals", however, who offer their services "pro bono" when the situation merits that.


I am a hobby breeder. Typically, there are 3 or 4 dogs living in my home. There is no kennel facility. They live in my home as companion dogs. My pups do cost $1000+. Goldens in the newspaper ads from "casual" breeders usually run about $400 to $600. The pet shop puppies, from similar "unknown" parents, sell for about $800 to $900.

When the discussion of price of a puppy comes up, and it often does, I have to chuckle. It finally occurred to me that if hobby breeders charged for their puppies what they were really worth, nobody but millionaires could afford them  

Like John, my first Golden came from a puppy farm. He turned out pretty well. His hips were okay, but he had juvenile cataracts. Fortunately, in Goldens this usually is not a quality of life issue. Although, he was pretty ill when we brought him home, he went on to live a long, healthy life, and was a good retriever. He was a wonderful dog.

In many respects, a puppy is always kind of a crap shoot. In spite of weighing odds in one's favor with sound parents, there are no guarantees. Breeders must raise a dog until age two to find out if they pass hip exams, it means some investments that may not turn out. This can be costly, so the overall "profit" is not what it may appear to be to the puppy purchaser. It is also the reason that breeders try to weigh the odds in the favor of having good hips and elbows (among other things, of course).

Do not be too harsh with those who have given warnings of the problems. From what I have read, some of them have first-hand experience with the emotional and financial heartbreak of the problems they warn of. I'm sure you would do the same for someone else if you were in their shoes.

If your friend is as honest as you describe him, he may be willing to also learn of some of this information; especially if this is the first time he has bred his dogs.

Meanwhile, just love and care for your new family member.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Oh yeah, a breeder has time for every puppy owner to come visit multiple times. Please.
> 
> .


I would think that if the breeder did not have time for me to make a few visits (and all other puppy owners alike) for a major purchase that I will be spending many many years with, then that is someone that I would not want to deal with. Because they are only in it for the money, and not the well-being of the puppy, since they do not want to get to know the owner of the new puppies......


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Scott Parker said:


> Melanie while I'm not a breeder I did have one litter of pups out of my dog years ago and we had several people come more then once to look at the pups which didn't bother me at all I just wanted to make sure the people were happy with the one they picked out the pups personalty's seem to change from week to week.


Scott,

Sorry nothing personal intended there. With just one litter, I can see how that could have been acceptable and actually enjoyable. But when you have more than one litter a year and you are working full time and have a crew of big dogs to train and you are doing it all on your own, there is just not enough time (or energy) in the day. I think I need to go take a nap now. ;-)


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Some of "us" *are *uptight. 

It takes all kinds, though--*some folks NEED to be uptight,* to keep everyone aware of the risks and consequences.

*For those who are uptight, THANK YOU!*

BUT--those who are uptight should occasionally be reminded that good dogs come from all sorts of places, and god bless--as well as heaven help--the person who is *not *so uptight that they still have some respect and trust for the resiliency of the species (and the special resiliency of the Labrador!)

There's a place, too, for folks who don't feel they have to control the minutia of what is a 15,000 year relationship between people and dogs. Really, we can't, anyway--trying mucks things up occasionally, too.

War Hammer and a lot of other folks now have more information, which is never a bad thing. I for one would like to see him still be able to make a decision about picking a puppy without a whole bunch of folks killing (stomping on, and sweeping away) the joy of picking a pup.

Not all of you are--not saying you all are. But some of you are. And some are getting pretty close.

Two cents on my lunch hour. Now I'm broke.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Zman1001 said:


> I would think that if the breeder did not have time for me to make a few visits (and all other puppy owners alike) for a major purchase that I will be spending many many years with, then that is someone that I would not want to deal with. Because they are only in it for the money, and not the well-being of the puppy, since they do not want to get to know the owner of the new puppies......


Ha, classic RTF post. :lol::lol:


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## Mark L (Mar 22, 2010)

Ok, here is the correct way to decide between a yellow or black lab from the litter you have already chosen....

Go into your wife's closet and see what color of clothing she has the most of. If she has mostly dark/black clothes, there is your answer. If they are more on the light side, go with the yellow.

Just a thought. 

Mark L.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> The bottom line here is that you have now learned a whole lot more than you ever wanted to know  about the kinds of things that a responsible breeder must consider when producing a litter of puppies. And this is why the puppies they produce often cost $1000.
> 
> I don't consider myself a "professional" breeder ... once heard someone describe "professional" as one who gets paid for their services. There are some "professionals", however, who offer their services "pro bono" when the situation merits that.
> 
> ...


 
Great Post Gerry! Thank You! and I'm pretty sure I've scorned him enough on this litter that he has indeed learned some things too. Just fyi too He's not actually a friend of mind, I just know him. 





luvalab said:


> Some of "us" *are *uptight.
> 
> It takes all kinds, though--*some folks NEED to be uptight,* to keep everyone aware of the risks and consequences.
> 
> ...


 
Well said. 






Mark L said:


> Ok, here is the correct way to decide between a yellow or black lab from the litter you have already chosen....
> 
> Go into your wife's closet and see what color of clothing she has the most of. If she has mostly dark/black clothes, there is your answer. If they are more on the light side, go with the yellow.
> 
> ...


lol actually my wife wears a lot of purple and brown. 

I'll get about an hour with both of them today after work. I plan to seperate them from the others and the Dam and see how they react alone. I want to give the Black one another shot but I have to say the Yellow would just about have to completely ignore me in order to not get picked lol Never thought I'd say that about a Yellow!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> lol actually my wife wears a lot of purple and brown.


Hmmmmmmm then you should be getting a chocolate! what color is your flooring? But, as I say, dog hair on any floor, no matter what the color, still just looks like dog hair! 

Seems the yellow one has picked you..... have fun.


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

"Good dogs come from good dogs". 'nuff said.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

JusticeDog said:


> Hmmmmmmm then you should be getting a chocolate! what color is your flooring? But, as I say, dog hair on any floor, no matter what the color, still just looks like dog hair!
> 
> Seems the yellow one has picked you..... have fun.


Yea my wife is dying for a Chocolate(For Her) as she puts it, but wants to wait until our littlest one gets a older.

She has a serious Crush on Bayou Labrador's Chopper who is a son to Dakota's Cajun Roux.

He is handsome for sure.

*HRCH Gator Point's Bayou Chopper SH*


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

I have a question for the OP. If you are buy a dog (or a car, or a TV, or anything), why would you not want to buy the BEST you can afford? Why not put the odds in your favor instead of putting it all up to luck? Sure, you can get dysplastic dogs from parents with excellent hips and breeders who have done everything right. However, the odds of this is much smaller versus a pup that you have no info on the parents. If you just want "a good dog," go to a lab rescue. They have tons of good dogs that have just about as much info on them as your new pup would have. And they are probably even cheaper. Sorry, but I just don't get it.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Scott,
> 
> Sorry nothing personal intended there. With just one litter, I can see how that could have been acceptable and actually enjoyable. But when you have more than one litter a year and you are working full time and have a crew of big dogs to train and you are doing it all on your own, there is just not enough time (or energy) in the day. I think I need to go take a nap now. ;-)


It's OK Melanie we all know how you are when you haven't had your nap yet


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mlopez said:


> I have a question for the OP. If you are buy a dog (or a car, or a TV, or anything), why would you not want to buy the BEST you can afford? Why not put the odds in your favor instead of putting it all up to luck? Sure, you can get dysplastic dogs from parents with excellent hips and breeders who have done everything right. However, the odds of this is much smaller versus a pup that you have no info on the parents. If you just want "a good dog," go to a lab rescue. They have tons of good dogs that have just about as much info on them as your new pup would have. And they are probably even cheaper. Sorry, but I just don't get it.


I do get it. The OP made the same mistake I did, he went and visited a litter of new pups first. Once you do that, and one picks you out in such an adoreable manner, all logic goes out the window and it becomes a very emotional decision. The Op was just trying to share that cute, emotional experience, he didn't want to be talked out of the pup. I hope it works out well for him, and he as lucky as I was with my first dog, we all know it's a crap shoot. At least he's better educated on these issues for whatever thats worth.

John


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dustin,

Welcome to RTF.

I responded to your note sent via email, so feel free to check that out.

If you are enjoying the ongoing debate about some of this, then have at it. You will probably find some who enjoy debating back. 

One thing I've learned about internet forums: (I pretty much cut my teeth on this one and really only hang out at this one for some reason) No matter how you word a question or comment, some people will not interpret it the way you want them to. No matter how you word a question or a request for feedback, some of it will be, in your opinion, out in left field.

If you enjoy debating with those folks, then you have a good chance of engaging in it.* If you don't want to debate, you can thank them for their input (or not) and move on, with no other comment. *

Picking a puppy is a personal decision. What works for you need not work for anybody else....just you. IF one of these puppies floats your boat and makes you feel like it's right - go for it. 

If your goal is to get one puppy, and that's what you're getting, it really matters little to the global dog population, where you get that puppy. Buying one from this litter, or "rescuing one" from the pound, in the end puts one puppy in one home. 

Enjoy the puppy and have fun. And like I wrote in my email, if you are military (as your avatar seems to suggest) then sincerely Thank You for your service.

Chris


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Dustin,
> 
> Welcome to RTF.
> 
> ...


Thank you sir, and indeed there are not enough smiley's to ever really portray what we want folks to understand. Internet boards(New Age talking) takes time to develop the character of the Screen Name. 

Thanks again!



So Yellow or Black?  lol I kid, I kid 




/


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Maybe you should have just put a poll up. 

I vote for the yellow one, but then I'm partial to yellows:









This was my gang a few years ago. Unfortunately all but one of these of these are now gone. But we have 5 now, all shades of yellow. Would like to find the right little black male again, but he might have been our "once in a lifetime dog."

Welcome to the crazy world of retrievers, hope you have a good time and learn a lot. Hope your learning experiences aren't too painful.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Let's go back to your original post, Dustin, wherein you state the following:

" I’ve been to a couple of litters so far and have been actively searching for a good Hunt Dog with a decent pedigree." 

"I left a collar on the Yellow Male to somewhat reserve him for a few days while I decide. The owner had no problem at all and didn’t even ask for a down payment. Just said let me know in a few days and if you decide not I’ll mail your collar to you."

"So what do you guys think? Any TIPS on picking a pup? How should I decide Yellow or Black in this case?"

You asked for tips on how to pick a puppy, you have been wavering, not only between the two particular pups in this thread but also between several litters that you started another thread about, so while I got that you liked the yellow male, you weren't totally committed and were seeking help. You asked, you got some pretty polite responses, considering, you didn't like some of them, you deleted the other thread. So what's the big deal? You've gotten the answer to your first question that color doesn't matter, you've gotten lots of pros and cons about health clearances, right down to dewclaws. Why do you seem so perturbed that anyone else is offering their opinions and experience when you asked on a retriever training forum? You've made up your mind that you don't care about clearances, so go get your pup, whichever litter and whichever pup you've decided upon, go have fun with him and start training. I hope pup is healthy and works out fine.

If you think this was something, wait til you ask about training.


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Picking a puppy is a personal decision. What works for you need not work for anybody else....just you. IF one of these puppies floats your boat and makes you feel like it's right - go for it.
> 
> If your goal is to get one puppy, and that's what you're getting, it really matters little to the global dog population, where you get that puppy.


Did you really write this as a representative of this forum? It may not matter to the global population or not, but more importantly it will matter to HIM. Do you/we want to read when he posts that his pup is CNM or EIC affected?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Did you really write this as a representative of this forum? It may not matter to the global population or not, but more importantly it will matter to HIM. Do you/we want to read when he posts that his pup is CNM or EIC affected?


And guess who he will blame-the forum told him to go for it.

As far as the survey of dew claws and vets go, many vets don't have any breeders as clients, so they don't deal with dew claws. Chances are the pups never see a vet.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Rainmaker said:


> If you think this was something, wait til you ask about training.


LOL!

Anyway;
I was really referring to picking the Black or Yellow. Hence the title.

It was not several litters it was two.

The other thread was deleted b/c it served it's purpose, once I knew what the answer was there's no need to leave it up. It served it's purpose.

I know color doesn't matter, never said it did. I was partial to black pups but was taken back by this little yellow.

Sorry you misunderstood my OP.


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## Loddog (Jan 6, 2012)

After having read this long thread, I have some questions about my puppy and how to properly study his pedigree for good/bad signs. Should I post his pedigree and ask someone to walk through it or is there a site I could visit? 

I've found a few sites that explain how to read it, so I know that much, but I don't know good/bad signs that only come with experience, like so many of you have.

((Also, if I should post it, should I post it here or in a new thread?))


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Loddog said:


> After having read this long thread, I have some questions about my puppy and how to properly study his pedigree for good/bad signs. Should I post his pedigree and ask someone to walk through it or is there a site I could visit?
> 
> I've found a few sites that explain how to read it, so I know that much, but I don't know good/bad signs that only come with experience, like so many of you have.
> 
> ((Also, if I should post it, should I post it here or in a new thread?))


 
I'f you create a new topic be prepared for the opinions that will follow. Rarely do you get an answer to just the question.

They're really not that hard to read though. I'd suggest reading this for starters; should help out a ton. Part II especially.
http://www.northernflight.com/pedigree1.htm


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Loddog said:


> After having read this long thread, I have some questions about my puppy and how to properly study his pedigree for good/bad signs. Should I post his pedigree and ask someone to walk through it or is there a site I could visit?
> 
> I've found a few sites that explain how to read it, so I know that much, but I don't know good/bad signs that only come with experience, like so many of you have.
> 
> ((Also, if I should post it, should I post it here or in a new thread?))


I'd go with a new thread.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Loddog said:


> After having read this long thread, I have some questions about my puppy and how to properly study his pedigree for good/bad signs. Should I post his pedigree and ask someone to walk through it or is there a site I could visit?
> 
> I've found a few sites that explain how to read it, so I know that much, but I don't know good/bad signs that only come with experience, like so many of you have.
> 
> ((Also, if I should post it, should I post it here or in a new thread?))


Start with post #35. Go to OFA and plug in the names of the parents. Press vertical pedigree at the top and you will see the pedigree and you can look and see at least hips and elbows and possibly CERF, EIC and CNM clearances. There is also a separate CNM database and CERF database. You won't find titles, but you may by googling names of the parents and grandparents picking up other ads. If you have any questions then come back. If this thread can educate one person, it is worth it.


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## Loddog (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks much. I was told by the breeder that the sire was good on hips, normal on elbow. Dam was excellent on hips, normal on elbow. Also signed a written contract to that effect with the breeder.

All checks out at www.offa.org. You just go there and type in their names, then click the blue arrow. Further up the line a few generations looks good as well. Took me all of 5 minutes to confirm that.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> People that rescue pups don't talk about making them into stud dogs and rescuing the bloodline in the same paragraph.


Good point.

We all know where "assuming" gets us, but I'm assuming he will do as he says and seek clearances on the pup he picks out. And not breed him if he has problems. He asked for opinions and got them


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

War Hammer,

Welcome to RTF! I know from personal experience that it can seem as if everyone is ganging up on you when you ask a seemingly innocent question. You must understand some folks perspectives to understand their responses.

As a breeder I can understand the reason for the repeated pleas to insist on health clearances in a litter's parents. Many of the posters making these pleas spend a tremedous amount of time, energy, and expense trying to do everything in their power to insure that the pups they produce are as close to their ideal as humanly possible. Personally, I took a half day off of work yesterday to take two dogs to get their eyes examined for CERF certification. In the past several weeks I have traveled from IN to MN, IL, and OH to see prospective stud dogs and I need to go to TN and perhaps back to MN to see other candidates. When we see someone who is considering buying a pup from parents who don't have health clearances it goes against everything we believe about dog breeding. Those of us with strong convictions in our beliefs can't help but share them. I hope that you can understand our zeal and forgive the persistence. 

With that said, I understand your affliction and I'll answer the question you posed in your OP. I think you made a connection with the yellow fellow and he with you. If you must have one of the two pups in your OP forget your obession with black and go with your heart. The yellow guy is the pup for you! (Disclaimer: assuming you ignore the well intentioned advice you have received to look for a puppy from ancestors with the appropriate health clearances!)

Swack


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Did you really write this as a representative of this forum? It may not matter to the global population or not, but more importantly it will matter to HIM. Do you/we want to read when he posts that his pup is CNM or EIC affected?


Melanie,

Yes, I wrote this and steadfastly stand behind it as the owner/administrator/janitor of RTF.


The guy asking did not breed the parent dogs.
He is wondering if he should take one out of this litter.
People are suggesting that he instead go to a shelter and adopt a dog.
There is absolutely no difference in the global dog population whether he gets his puppy out of this existing litter, or out of an animal shelter. The dogs at the shelter will also not come with OFA, CERF, EIC, CNM, Elbows, Heart, etc.... They may, if he's lucky be heartworm negative and neutered/spayed.

It is clear that nobody's going to put these puppies down because they might have a health problem. 

This guy knows the risks and acknowledges them. He clearly understands that the puppies may or may not pass all the health clearances.

It makes no difference whether he gets a puppy here or at the pound.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> And guess who he will blame-the forum told him to go for it.
> 
> As far as the survey of dew claws and vets go, many vets don't have any breeders as clients, so they don't deal with dew claws. Chances are the pups never see a vet.


It's a personal decision.

If he knowingly accepts the risks and chooses one of these dogs, it is his personal choice alone.

It is absolutely no different, from a global canine population standpoint, whether he takes one from this litter or if he gets one from a rescue.

Some have essentially implied that he should abandon this litter because it is "below standard" and instead adopt a dog from a rescue. To me, that's illogical.

It's his choice and plenty of people have pointed out the risks. He's obviously dug in a bit and pushed back.... 

Why not let him go for it.

The sad thing is, I honestly believe some folks will hope that the dog is not a total picture of health, just so they can feel "right".

It is a personal decision guys and gals. There is no "right" or "wrong".

I may want my daughter to marry a Harvard MBA. My daughter may want to marry starving poet who dropped out of High School with a GED. No matter how much we preach to her the financial implications, we can't make her marry what WE want for ourselves.

Chris - a representative of this forum

Anybody who wants to blame me for stating that it is a personal decision where to buy a puppy and how they make their decision, have at it.

Surely we can all agree this guy's been advised on the risks more than adequately.

Chris


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> There is absolutely no difference in the global dog population whether he gets his puppy out of this existing litter, or out of an animal shelter.


Big difference, Chris. Did you not see his posts about perpetuating the dog's bloodline or potentially offering the stud in the future?

And the difference between buying a puppy vs getting a dog from an animal shelter is obvious. As a puppy buyer, you have the opportunity to research the parents, both health wise and temperament wise. I know the latter hasn't come into play in this thread, but it is a HUGE difference when deciding between a pup or a pound dog.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> The sad thing is, I honestly believe some folks will hope that the dog is not a total picture of health, just so they can feel "right".


That is absurd and I hope you take that back or least give it some thought.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> That is absurd and I hope you take that back or least give it some thought.


Melanie, my honest feeling is my honest feeling.

Thank you for your input.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=909368&postcount=81


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Hey War Hammer,

I was in 1987 where you are today. 

I picked the yellow pup that came up and grabbed ahold of my tie at the farmhouse that had the plywood sign out front. The plywood sign in drippy spraypaint said "AKC Labs".

I will tell you that I personally, would not touch the litter you are looking at today with a 10 foot pole. Been there, done it, willing to stack the odds in my favor today.

I've had dogs that were not the best bred. I may just have a dog today that is pretty darn well-bred. I've gotten better as a trainer, but I'm not *THAT* good.

As a respresentative of this forum, I am here to tell you that it is YOUR personal decision and nobody else's. 

I hope that your puppy, whatever you get, is healthy and happy and that it makes you happy.

Life is too short to not be happy.

Chris


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## charly_t (Feb 11, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Melanie,
> 
> Yes, I wrote this and steadfastly stand behind it as the owner/administrator/janitor of RTF.
> 
> ...


Sums it up pretty well.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Melanie Foster said:


> Big difference, Chris. Did you not see his posts about perpetuating the dog's bloodline or potentially offering the stud in the future?
> .


I thought I cleared that up in Post 63. 

Take a look, and fear not. 




/


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hey War Hammer,
> 
> I was in 1987 where you are today.
> 
> ...


I was in the same place in 1998 when I got my first lab - I got him at a pet store "breeder's fair"...he was also out of an oops litter (mother & son), but he picked me. Would I ever do that again, probably not.

I agree with Chris, it is your decision. At least you are aware of the possible health issues. I hope your puppy is everything you hope it will be...I hope you continue to learn about the different aspects of the breed, from training him to be the best duck dog ever to being the laziest most spoiled little turd in his retirement.

Enjoy him. Love him. Care for him. Be there for him through thick and thin. Remember he is just a dog, but he is YOUR dog.

FOM

P.S. That's him in my avatar - 13+ years old...excellent hips, clear elbows, CNM clear, CERF clear, didn't do EIC as I have no reason to....with a pedigree worth of "crap"


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

FOM said:


> from training him to be the best duck dog ever to being the laziest most spoiled little turd in his retirement.
> 
> Enjoy him. Love him. Care for him. Be there for him through thick and thin. Remember he is just a dog, but he is YOUR dog.
> 
> FOM


 
Count on it!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I may want my daughter to marry a Harvard MBA. My daughter may want to marry starving poet who dropped out of High School with a GED. No matter how much we preach to her the financial implications, we can't make her marry what WE want for ourselves.


Hmmmmmmmm Chris..... you don't have a daughter..... and how about if you do, SHE becomes the Harvard MBA..... then if she marries a straving poet, it won't matter.


Helpful Helpy Person regards-


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I hope that your puppy, whatever you get, is healthy and happy and that it makes you happy.


Ditto. And why are we still discussing this. The YLM picked you. Go get the darn pup and have fun with it.  Get some of those rolly tape things for your wife's brown clothes.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Melanie, my honest feeling is my honest feeling.


Who can you name on this forum who has ever wished bad luck on an owner or their dog just so they can say "I told you so"? You may want to reread your statement that I pointed out as being absurd because you may have misunderstood to what I was referring.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dustin,

Get the yellow and name him Champ! 

Edit: Actually I just went back and reread your whole initial post.

When I picked up my first lab at the farmhouse with the plywood sign next to the country highway, I wanted a black female.

The farmer came out and said "Nope, we got no blacks, only a few yellow males left".

I wanted to leave. But my boss was in the car and he said
"What's the harm in just looking?"

We went in the house, down to the dirt-floored basement and out came the plump yellow dudes. One came up and grabbed my tie and tugged and tugged. 

We thanked the farmer and went to my boss' house for lunch. I remember eating a toasted cheese with tomoto soup and thinking about that plump yellow boy the whole time. That was the first time I ever used an ATM card to take out $200! 

I went back, gave my money to the farmer, and he took me to the basement. Only one puppy was left. I never did know if he was the one that pulled my tie or not. 

And by that time, it didn't matter.

Chris


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hey War Hammer,
> 
> As a respresentative of this forum, I am here to tell you that it is YOUR personal decision and nobody else's.
> 
> ...


Well said and I think you should take the yellow!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> "What's the harm in just looking?"
> 
> Chris


And that's how it all started for lots of us.

John


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

War Hammer,

Seems to me you've become enamoured with this yellow pup. However, like many have said, I also would caution you to go with a health certified litter. 

Health certs are a means of stacking the odds for a healthy life long companion. Field work takes a tremendous toll on a body, so why not stack your odds?

I can understand your eagerness to get a pup "now!", after all it's hard to resist the pull of that puppy, but I would counsel you to resist that. Caveat emptor!

What I don't understand is, you've stated your wife likes the chocolate "Chopper", so why don't you wait and get a pup by him? Yvonne is a reputable breeder who does her due diligence. I know Chopper and he's a nice hunt test dog. Not quite my cup of tea, since I skew toward trials, but certainly fine animal. He would definatly throw a nice duck dog, which it seems you're looking for. 

Trust me, a couple hundred extra doesn't mean squat when you're trying to train a pup that either cant do the work due to a physical defect or the desire to do the work. 

For the record, I agree with Melanie, Nancy and the other knowledgabMle breeders who have posted. They're basing their opinions on seeing heartbreak and trying to save you some (perhaps). 

I cannot agree with you brother Chris. If you demand the standards you have set on the litter pages, then you should walk the walk. No offense, my friend.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

KNorman said:


> War Hammer,
> 
> Seems to me you've become enamoured with this yellow pup. However, like many have said, I also would caution you to go with a health certified litter.
> 
> ...


Kevin,

You are free to disagree.

I have tried to stress that it is WH's personal decision. I have stated that if it were me, I would not touch the litter with a 10 foot pole.

Here is the rest of the story. WH originally reported this thread to the moderators. The forum that WH frequents, has moderators who "clean up" threads and remove the miscellaneous stuff that's off topic.

I've had a decent bit of private exchange with WH. Here's where he was coming from. He only wanted to know which puppy to pick out of this litter. Yellow or black. He did not ask for input on health clearances and he's gotten a ton.

I've made it clear to WH that RTF culture is such that moderators are not going to make judgement calls and start "cleaning up" or editing thread content that is outside the original poster's intended purpose. We're only going to get involved in editing or deleting if there are black and white groundrules broken, and we're likely to pull the whole thread.

So brother Kevin, like me, I would expect you and darn near 100% of the users of this board who have ever put any ribbons on the wall with their retrievers, to avoid this litter.

Brother Kevin, you have stated YOUR personal decision. In this case, the personal decision is WH's. 

I don't know about most of you, but I know that if I repeatedly tell my wife or my kids that I feel strongly about a decision of theirs where they're considering the opposite, I tend to drive them that way.

I honestly think that WH's tone and demeanor is such that he's gotten way more of the health clearance guidance, advice and such than he wanted. (he actually wanted zero)

I also think that WH has brought much of this upon himself by responding, debating, feeding the fuel, firing the beast, and giving power to the element that he seems to really not want to hear from.

So I maintain. It is a personal decision. I can tell my daughter all her life that she should marry a Harvard MBA. But if she decides she wants a starving poet with a GED, she's probably going to do it. So what should I do? I should wish her happiness and a good relationship.

Frankly, while I'd not consider one of these pups for myself, if they truly are registerable legitimate labradors (and it appears that WH thinks they are). There is a chance that these pups could be extremely healthy, extremely good performers, and may actually turn out to be a nice outcross opportunity to the retriever world.

Not everybody wants the same thing. 

This guy wants to know if he should get a yellow dog or a black dog out of this litter. 

Kevin, if you had to pick the yellow or black, after reading only his original post, which would you pick?


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

KNorman said:


> War Hammer,
> 
> Seems to me you've become enamoured with this yellow pup. However, like many have said, I also would caution you to go with a health certified litter.
> 
> ...


This is a good post. I might add that right now you just want a dog to duck hunt with like a lot of others on this forum that's how it starts out. Then when you get into training them you may find you would like to do more then hunt with him and start training to run hunt tests. That's when you wish you would have spent a little more money and bought a pup breed for that. You get what you pay for.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> This is a good post. I might add that right now you just want a dog to duck hunt with like a lot of others on this forum that's how it starts out. Then when you get into training them you may find you would like to do more then hunt with him and start training to run hunt tests. That's when you wish you would have spent a little more money and bought a pup breed for that. You get what you pay for.


I think the point's been made significantly more times than WH wanted.

I assure you that he gets it. We ALL get it!

Scott, if you read WH's original post and had to help him with his sought after answer, which would it be?

There are two choices....yellow....or black.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> There are two choices....yellow....or black.


Or door #3. Education. What he does is his choice but take note that someone else with a new pup already did pay attention and asked if he should be concerned about his pup's clearance history. And that is just one person who posted. Who knows how many more have read this thread and learned something from it?

When the breeders on this forum answer a question regarding progesterone, whelping, post c-section recovery, AIs, etc, do you think it is really all directed at one individual? We take our time to respond so that others reading the thread will also learn and hopefully be able to use that information in the future.

A forum is not about answering one person's simple question. I mean, isn't sharing information one of the primary missions of this type of media?


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Chris like I told him early on before I made up my mine I'd want to go see them again because the one you like one week might not be the one you like the next but if it were up to me I'd go with the black so it wouldn't contrast with the hair that's already around my house.


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## DenverB2B (Feb 22, 2009)

I am so confused...........so many choices so little time. What was the question again? Ah what the heck, get them both and you can still get your brown dog later. Never can have to many labs.

Trying to help in the worst way regards.

P.S. I started with one nine years ago and now have seven. 

Stan Huling.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Wow I just read it all and my head hurts. So many excellent post on this thread and very informative to newbies buying a pup.

Some post might seem antagonistic but they are not. They are offered from experienced breeders offering their insight to the things that are important to them. These insights and beliefs are held very dear to the breeders and quite frankly that is why they are succesful.

I hope all works out for the OP and I hope the OP realizes that noone wants to see you or your pup fail. 

Good luck.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Chris, it's all good. I do not agree with you, but hey, it's not the first time ;-)

I stand by my opinion, which is with many of the breeders here. 

I'm in a VERY curt, tired and argumentive mood. So much so, I didn't take a call from a good friend. Best I lay out until tomorrowwww. ;-)

Night all...I'm training in the morning.


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## camoismycolor (Jan 20, 2012)

you know you want him when you go to pick up your collar make sure the pup is still in it


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> He did not ask for input on health clearances and he's gotten a ton.
> 
> This guy wants to know if he should get a yellow dog or a black dog out of this litter.


It may be he only wanted to hear what he wanted to hear, but before the posts are altered, he did ask for that info. 
Post 1


> Sorry for all the repeat I’m trying to be as informative as possible


post #13, his second post 

Quote:



> Originally Posted by Rainmaker
> 
> given what I see in those photos and what you said, there are a couple flags to me.





> What do you see?
> 
> Gotta help me out here guys, I'm not seeing what you see when it comes to genetics etc. Thanks


His 3rd post, post #17, he is still pushing for answers



> I guess I was wondering what you see in the photo's and *what did I say that leads you to have cause for concern?
> *


Then when he finally got answers he, he is saying he never asked??? It's all there.

And in case there is anyone wondering,* it is *all about those pups and the future ones because we are not the ones that brought up breeding either.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> It may be he only wanted to hear what he wanted to hear, but before the posts are altered, he did ask for that info.
> Post 1
> post #13, his second post
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input.

I've attempted to share the exchanges I've had with him via email after he reported this thread.

I have never been a fan of partial quotes. I've been partially quoted more than once in this thread and it really can take things out of context and allow someone to put a spin on something.

I'm sure lots of folks have learned lots of things in this lengthy thread. I think the originator got all he wanted out of it. Lots of others have had ample opportunity to form some opinions too.

It's all good.

Have a great weekend.

Chris


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

My head is spinning reading this thread. Now I know why people hate the legal profession. Spin a brunch of quotes to justify your position and obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.

The guy wants a dog; the yellow one supposedly bonded with him. Bottomline, get the dog you want. There's a lot more important ethical and moral issues in this world to be concerned with than whether a dog has the "correct" breeding.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I posted this on another thread, but am reposting it here, since it's pretty relevant to the discussion.

Looking back, I'd like to share a story...one that may help those of us who are now working hard to breed good dogs, responsibly. The impression we give those impulse buyers lasts a lifetime.

Thirty-some odd years ago, I bought my first Chessie. He was a $75 newspaper puppy, the last of a litter, and four months old. I said I was only going to look...but one lick to my face and he was mine. Health clearances? Titles? Nope. And I didn't care...I just wanted a puppy. He turned out to be a wonderful dog. 

Now here's where the breeder stuff comes in. I had to be out of town, and board Magnum for two nights. Rather than use just any kennel, I opted to drive a little further to a very well known Chessie breeder that also did some boarding. I had explained that I had a Chessie and preferred to board him with people who knew the breed. 

When I arrived, I walked past kennels full of gorgeous Chessies...I was so impressed, and said to myself "My next dog will be one like this...wow!" 

And then one of the owners came out, took one look at Magnum, and with a sneer, said "well, he might be part Chessie." ( he was all Chessie, no question...just not show quality like their dogs) .

My next thought was "........but my next dog will never come from people like this."

All these years later, I can still see the contempt on that breeder's face. I never went back there again, and wouldn't have owned one of their dogs if it was free.

My point is that we need to be welcoming, and educate gently. First impressions last a lifetime. Thirty years later, that still stings. __________________


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> I posted this on another thread, but am reposting it here, since it's pretty relevant to the discussion.
> 
> Looking back, I'd like to share a story...one that may help those of us who are now working hard to breed good dogs, responsibly. The impression we give those impulse buyers lasts a lifetime.
> 
> ...


Very, very nice.

Thank you Sharon.

This is one of the best posts in this entire thread.

Oh....and I'd like to say:

*Chesty, (the yellow puppy in the first post) Welcome to your new home! (I received some pics of a special yellow lab puppy via email) Well, he might be part  lab .*

*War Hammer, welcome to RTF.*

*I hope Chesty turns out to be the lucky throw of the dice for you and yours.*

One day you may turn out like the rest of us crusty old retriever junkies and want to pick and choose the sire and dam based upon a whole lot of clearances and other variables. 

Chris


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Yes, I hope War Hammer's new yellow pup turns out fine. I hope he sticks around and learns a thing or two about this forum and the world of working retrievers. If he hasn't felt the love we have for our dogs yet and the wealth of personalities that make this place what it is, I'm sure he'll enjoy the ride if he does.

Me, I'm spending the weekend driving about 20 hours to get my own new yellow boy that I've been awaiting for a very long time, since I foolishly let his big brother get killed. None of us are perfect, none of us, but no one can say we don't put it all out there for the dogs, good, bad or ugly. If you love them, you stick with it no matter what anyone says or does.


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

I went through this entire thread last night and finished it with a headache. I understand both sides of the so called "debate".

After seeing Chris's last post it sounds like you made a good decision on the yellow one that basically chose you. Congrats, love the little guy and enjoy the ride your about to experience with him.


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## Mary Bizub (Jul 23, 2005)

Get the yellow male pup and have fun with him!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Well he's indeed getting more confident now that he's been here almost 24 hours. He was pretty restless lastnight and was NOT taking to the kennel yelping loudly. So when he stopped for a second I pulled him out as to not reward the crying somewhat. I just crashed on the couch with him b/c I was getting up early to go duck hunting anyway. With the baby in our room still I figured no problem. It's his first night. Today he's had to spend some time in the Kennel and did really well. I tied up an old t-shirt I had worn that day in knots. Chunked it in there with him and he didn't even cry. We'll see how tonight goes.

My youngest is defintely a DOG LOVER! I have to try and keep her from licking him! LOL!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> My point is that we need to be welcoming, and educate gently. First impressions last a lifetime. Thirty years later, that still stings. __________________


This is true about a lot of aspects of these dog games. Great post Sharon!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Smart, you got the one that blends in better with your flooring. 

Won't clash with the baby's clothes either.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

That is a very sweet puppy to be so appropriate with a very small child. He sure is a cutie!

It is very normal for them to cry some for a night or two ... they're used to sleeping snuggled up to the other warm bodies of their littermates.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Man those pics are something. Memories for a lifetime. Congrats on the new pup and kids!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I should have mentioned. Watch for toenails and puppy teeth on baby skin. (your skin too ) He's not being mean that's just the way puppies play with other puppies.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

If you crate the pup away from the rest of the family, you might try keeping some soft insturmental music playing in the room with them.. It seems to sooth them, I usually have my pups dozing to either soft jazz, classical, or some of the nature sounds CDs - with music and water sounds, rain, birds etc....

He's a cutie but not half as cute that that sweet little girl with the big blue eyes. I think they are going to be close friends. Do you have a name for him yet?


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> It is very normal for them to cry some for a night or two ... they're used to sleeping snuggled up to the other warm bodies of their littermates.


 
Well the last Lab pup I had when I was single. So having another with a wife and three kids is quite entertaining. 

My last pup pretty much just slept on top of my comforter. Married now that's a no-go. The yelping also tends to wake up our little one in the picture here. 

So If I put him outside in his kennel, is there any risk of yelping all night? I usually wake up AT LEAST once a night. figured I'd go let him out for a minute and then put him back. 

Sound fine? Should we attempt another night in the house? It's only been 24 hours away from mom and syblings.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Howard N said:


> I should have mentioned. Watch for toenails and puppy teeth on baby skin. (your skin too ) He's not being mean that's just the way puppies play with other puppies.


Yea I've warned my wife and kids. They have no experience with Labs at all. To include those little razor teeth.
It's halarious how he just flys to the baby to lick her and she SQUINTS and Blinks her eyes lol




Lady Duck Hunter said:


> If you crate the pup away from the rest of the family, you might try keeping some soft insturmental music playing in the room with them.. It seems to sooth them, I usually have my pups dozing to either soft jazz, classical, or some of the nature sounds CDs - with music and water sounds, rain, birds etc....
> 
> He's a cutie but not half as cute that that sweet little girl with the big blue eyes. I think they are going to be close friends. Do you have a name for him yet?


 
Nice tip and I've named him Chesty! - It's a Marine thing 

I was away today for a few hours and my wife did something similar. He was in the shed kennel which dubs as out Laundry Room. There is a TV out there. She said she let him run around until she was finished with the clothes then put him in the kennel. He yelped a little so she put on Ice Age and he just chilled out and went to sleep :lol:


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> Well the last Lab pup I had when I was single. So having another with a wife and three kids is quite entertaining.
> 
> My last pup pretty much just slept on top of my comforter. Married now that's a no-go. The yelping also tends to wake up our little one in the picture here.
> 
> ...


Please don't put the puppy outside in a kennel. Part of being a new puppy owner is to expect some sleepless nights for all in the family. It's a very stressful time for the puppy and bonding to the new family is important.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> Yea I've warned my wife and kids. They have no experience with Labs at all. To include those little razor teeth.
> It's halarious how he just flys to the baby to lick her and she SQUINTS and Blinks her eyes lol
> 
> 
> ...


 
Oh good! Your wife is going to be great at getting the puppy to sleep..... with 3 little kids as practice! 

Great pictures!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

War Hammer said:


> Well the last Lab pup I had when I was single. So having another with a wife and three kids is quite entertaining.
> 
> My last pup pretty much just slept on top of my comforter. Married now that's a no-go. The yelping also tends to wake up our little one in the picture here.
> 
> ...


Okay, you wanted this puppy ... now you begin to pay the *real* price 

If need be you could try sleeping on the couch a night or two or wherever the pup's crying won't wake the baby.

Most often it only lasts a night or two, but sometimes can go on as long as a week.

You want the crate near you since if the pup needs to go out, you'll want to wake up and take him out & not let him soil his crate. Pups may wake very early in the morning for the "call of nature". Take him out; praise him and then put him back in his crate. Walking on a leash for this can be helpful for overall housetraining.

The T-shirt idea was a good one. Your scent will help make him feel more secure. Having his crate in your bedroom also gets him used to your scent. You can also take an old towel & sleep on it for a night & then put it in the crate with pup as his "security blanket."

As mentioned by someone else, always closely supervise a pup with a very small child. Neither one is truly smart enough to avoid getting into trouble with each other. As pup adjusts to his new surroundings he may play rougher. When close supervision is not possible ... that's where a crate comes in handy. With 3 kids to care for, mom will learn to appreciate just how handy it is!

Don't know the other ages of the kids, but supervision may be in order for them as well. Kids and puppies can do some pretty stupid things that end up with one or both of them getting injured unintentionally.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Nice Tips folks, thanks.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

War Hammer said:


> Yea I've warned my wife and kids. They have no experience with Labs at all. To include those little razor teeth.
> It's halarious how he just flys to the baby to lick her and she SQUINTS and Blinks her eyes lol
> 
> 
> ...


Good looking pup and great pics! He looks happy as you seem so as well- good luck with him and enjoy the ride! 

And just an added tip if you don't have a radio or a tv available, go get one of those cheap, old fashioned, wind up alarm clocks that ticks (the one that has the old clock face with bells on top) Wind it up, DO NOT set the alarm  and wrap it up in a towel or your shirt and put it in his kennel. The ticking mimics the heart beats of mom and siblings and comforts them. I have done this with all my recent pups over the last 12 years (along with putting a towel that I rubbed the bitch down with before bringing them home as that scent also comforts them) and they have never cried longer than the first hour after the middle of the night potty break. Also, I took that opportunity to start to teach the "quiet" or "no noise command". They seemed to catch on pretty quick. Good luck, have fun and keep those pics coming of little Chesty!!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

RxRatedLabs said:


> And just an added tip if you don't have a radio or a tv available, go get one of those cheap, old fashioned, wind up alarm clocks that ticks (the one that has the old clock face with bells on top) Wind it up, DO NOT set the alarm  and wrap it up in a towel or your shirt and put it in his kennel. The ticking mimics the heart beats of mom and siblings and comforts them.


Yea I've heard that too many times now not to try it. He did great last night on the yelping(or lack there of) and I got up every three hours but noticed within the last 3 hour stretch he pooped TWICE! Which I thought was odd.

Is it ok to keep his food from him at night as long as he got a good feeding first? I mean I'm thinking babies who nurse eat when they're hungry. Similar or not the same? I left his food with him last night b/c the last time he had eaten was around 4:00 pm.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

War Hammer said:


> and I got up every three hours but noticed within the last 3 hour stretch he pooped TWICE! Which I thought was odd.
> 
> Is it ok to keep his food from him at night as long as he got a good feeding first? I mean I'm thinking babies who nurse eat when they're hungry. Similar or not the same? I left his food with him last night b/c the last time he had eaten was around 4:00 pm.


You'll want to get his feedings on a schedule so his poops will also be on a schedule. They will usually poop within 20 minutes of eating. So, if they are free feeding, (like just giving them the bowl), you have no idea when the 20 minutes is up! 

I feel small pups 3x per day. If they don't eat the food, I pick it up. But that means you have to feed them some place quiet without distractions.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

JusticeDog said:


> You'll want to get his feedings on a schedule so his poops will also be on a schedule. They will usually poop within 20 minutes of eating. So, if they are free feeding, (like just giving them the bowl), you have no idea when the 20 minutes is up!
> 
> I feel small pups 3x per day. If they don't eat the food, I pick it up. But that means you have to feed them some place quiet without distractions.


I don't like the free feeding idea personally, he just kept going back to his bowl around 4pm so I fed him early. Then he didn't want to eat for a while which is why I just left it with him last night. Meh first 24 hours you know, not stressing it just trying to get the schedule/pattern created.

Thanks for the help


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Sounds like you've already seen improvement, and I can sure understand not wanting to wake the baby. When I get a new puppy I keep their crate right next to my bed at night. When they whimper I hang my arm down the side of the bed where they can sniff/feel my fingers, and I can soothe them verbally (briefly.) They usually go right back to sleep when they realize I'm nearby. Funny how you learn to tell the difference between "I'm lonely! Where is everyone?" and "I need to go out!" Once pup settles down, learns the smells and sounds of the house and is sleeping through the night (not counting potty breaks) you can start moving the crate to the foot of the bed, or another room (but I like having them in my room...) Sure helps with the bonding process.

Cute little guy, almost as cute as your daughter! 

It's going to be a job the first few months: I never know which is harder, protecting the puppy from the kids or protecting the kids from the puppy. Well worth it in the end!


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

gardyner said:


> It's going to be a job the first few months: I never know which is harder, protecting the puppy from the kids or protecting the kids from the puppy. Well worth it in the end!



I'm picking up a smaller kennel/pet taxi today. One half the size of the one now but that can fit near the bed. The one I have now barely fits through the door. Not very house friendly.

Fun moment; This morning after feeding the kids I grabbed my coffee mug and went on a walk with Chesty. I live out in the country and have about 40 acres of woods/pasture ditches all sorts of varying terrain to walk around for him. So we took a good 10 minute tour and he keeps getting in fron of me and whinning. So finally I stop and dude looks at me and pees We start walking and no more whinning lol Guess he thought I was going to leave him lol. Then he ran into an aint pile the size of him nose first. Gave a little bark b/c it scared him and sneezed it out. Fun times!


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey Dustin......enjoy the pup, they grow up way too fast. It seems like yesterday I picked up my new girl and she is almost going on 5 months!!!!! Ya picked a cutie for sure! Very cute child as well!

Chris


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Oh and on the kids vs pup...wipes brow...lol My son is the worst. Constantly with the Chesty No, Chesty heel, Chesty down, Chesty Fetch, Chesty lay down....*headsmack* he got all that from watching some Dog training videos lol

Were talking about puppy confusion as I type this


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

War Hammer said:


> I'm picking up a smaller kennel/pet taxi today. One half the size of the one now but that can fit near the bed. The one I have now barely fits through the door. Not very house friendly.


It does help to have more than one crate! But it will be more cost-conscious to make sure that each crate is large enough for your grown dog.

Later, when pup no longer needs a second crate during the night, the "spare" is handy to keep in your vehicle.

Good advice on feeding on schedule for a puppy. While they don't need "free feeding" like human children, they will usually eliminate after eating like human children. Eating stimulates the digestive tract ... all of it.

If the last meal is around your own dinnertime, the pup should eliminate before bedtime & be okay through the night ... after the first week or so.


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