# Why hire a pro?



## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

For not judging anyone you sure are.

We all have our challenges and priorities. You are lucky to have a situation that allows you to work with your own dog at a pace that pleases you. I have used pros over the years when I had a dog I knew needed to advance but I didn't have the time, places to train or a training group to do it myself. Others will relay similar situations.

Enjoy your dog and the time you have to spend with it.

Meredith


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


There lots of reasons for hiring a pro. All you say about the satisfaction of doing it yourself is true, but you asked the question, so here are some answers in no particular order:

1) Despite all the resources available today, many people just aren't confident in their ability to properly train a dog, especially in the important early young dog stage.
2) You have a job and kids and are able to do it, but many can't. It's a good feeling knowing your dog is getting steady day to day training every day regardless of all the other hassles going on in your life.
3) Longer road trips where a pro might run your dog in multiple events that you couldn't get to due to work.
4) extending your training and trialing season by either going South during winter if you live in the snowy north, or north in the summer if you live in the hot south.
5) Pro help with a specific issue you can't figure out.
6) Better training grounds and daily pro set ups that you don't have at home.

Like you said, we shouldn't judge, I'm sure everyone has a good reason to do it yourself, get occasional help from a pro, or send their dog to a pro long term.


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## Barry Ireland (Feb 18, 2005)

I personally have seen both sides. I have used pro's and have done it myself. The satisfaction is no doubt greater if you do the work yourself. But, as John stated it is very difficult to find the time and the resources to properly train! I have several young dogs at the moment and I am attempting to do it myself. It is difficult to operate a business and take care of and train these pups to the level that I think they are capable of. I also was blessed with my first grandchild 7 weeks ago and I can tell you if the financial resources were there I would place my dogs with a pro and enjoy my new grandson. I enjoy great dog work as much as anyone but the time is not always there.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Um, got a dog, then got a "promotion" in my work... more money and way less time. Should I put the dog in cold storage? Forget about running her when my intentions had been to "get in the game"? Said dog is now 6 years old, a MH, been to the MN once (briefly... ) and will be running advanced stakes with me. I got a newpup about 10 months before retirement. Sent her off for thorough basics (that I did not have the time or expertise to give her) and now I expect to be running in both upper and lower stakes and who knows after that.

Without a pro, I'd be 65 years old and starting from absolute scratch. Now I have a new life and a running start at what I love.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


Ryan, don't take this harshly, but...

I think your inquiry stems from your lack of knowing what actually goes into training a Top Flight Retriever.









Have you ever trained a Finished Dog? Not a Meat Dog, I'm talking about a Field Champion, Grand HRCH, Master Hunter etc etc ..,....?

Sounds like you haven't. Sounds like you may not have ever even seen one of these types of Champions.

It's HARD. Very hard and even if you know what you're doing it's hard, even if you have help it can be hard.

Most everyone here is Training their guts out, even if they're paying for a Pro to get the Fundamentals/Advanced Handling Done.

It doesn't stop there. The dog will have to practice for years to be his very best.

So, I say again, sounds like you may not understand,
b/c you simply don't know all that is required.

Otherwise, how could you even ask the question? No one here would dare ask that question
b/c we all know why.









By the way, I have never hired a Pro. But that doesn't mean I don't know why they exist.
I've been in the game long enough to know that MUCH is required to get a dog to Champion Status.

WAY MORE than the average person is even close to giving.

These folks aren't training a dog to pick up some ducks within 100 yards in the marsh.


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## Victoria Jones (May 29, 2010)

Because I choose to......


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Lack of time, knoweldge, experience and I'm sure there are others. Many have invested a good sum in a nice pup and don't want that potential squandered.


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

Ok...I guess I will respond to some of this. 

Dustin: I will be running a finished and a new started this weekend. 

I understand the issues with property needs and issues finding anything. I currently live in the city with a postage stamp yard but I'm never afraid to knock on doors and ask to use land for training. That's the only training grounds I have. I've been kicked out of city parks. So I get it. 

I also understand work and other priorities. I'm lucky enough to not be required to travel as much as I have in the past for work. 

I simply think that it is more rewarding to train(and sometimes screw up) your own dog.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

I use a pro because I can. I coach my kids sports, work full time, and have more money than time but I still want to compete. Yes I have trained my own dogs to HT titles but to compete in field trials my dogs need to be trained more consistently and on better grounds than I can get to while coaching and working.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Some will use a pro to get through a certain point in training that they either don't want to do or don't feel confident doing. Force fetch is a good example of that. I do an awful lot of that for owners who will do the other training themselves. There's nothing wrong with that...it ends up being easier on the dog to have me FF it as opposed to an owner who will FF one dog every ten years or so and isn't confident in doing it.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ryan said:


> Ok...I guess I will respond to some of this.
> 
> Dustin: I will be running a finished and a new started this weekend.
> 
> ...


For you that may be true, except the screw it up part, but like Dustin said going for an FC-AFC is way-way hard. I don't know what Finished is, I assume it's similar to Master in AKC. I trained my first dog to MH mostly by myself and a training buddy. Going for an FC or AFC is way harder. That said it is possible for really good amateurs to do it all themselves.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

to be competitive in the white coat game ,you have to have sufficient time on your hands to not only train , but run events . It is the pro's job . A HARD JOB..As I approach retirement from my current job , I had decisions to make .Have a co owner on a dog for the first time since I started this game 25 years ago , who has been with a pro for a winter trip .My new pup is out of my lines ,and spent the summer/fall with a pro . So 2 dogs on a pro truck recently . Glad I did it .Next dog might start out there too , depending on pups development/age and actual retirement date . I think the underlying theme to all the responses is the owners doing what they feel is in the dog's best interest . I know it's not in my checkbooks best interest to use a pro regards...........


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## gj325 (Feb 8, 2014)

In my case I decided that I was not a dog trainer so instead of wasting my time on a pretend trainer. I chose to have a pro do the job. There is a big difference on having a trained pup even if it's just the basics. If I mess up I have no fall back. Sometimes you can't just read knowledge. Or I can't everyone's skills are different. Me I am a Sheetmetal Pro.&#55357;&#56833; that's where my pro skills start and end.


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## Quacktastic (Oct 4, 2013)

Victoria Jones said:


> Because I choose to......



Best answer yet...


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Have you ever had a fire breathing hard charger? Some dogs require the services of a Pro. Better for the dog and better for you.

I like Sharon's approach. I leave FF to a pro. I suck at it. Always have...


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I think there are very few dog owners who aren't also dog-lovers, especially their dog. If they could take the dog to the level they need (whether hunting, HT's or FT's) they would. Fundamentally, they cannot. So they make a huge sacrifice. I do and always will miss the fact that there were large chunks of my 6 y.o. BLF's life of which I was not a part. I certainly miss the $$ that could have otherwise be earning compound interest in some account. But there is no way I could have had an advanced dog and a well started Newpup at my age if I'd not done it. 

So for me it was a binary choice. Use a pro and have working dogs. Don't use a pro and forget about owning a lab all together. (I could always get a pocket dog at the humane shelter and that would be that.) 

(And before anyone says the obvious... we also own a rescued lab who manages the household when the other labs are on the road.)


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## Kirk Major (Apr 12, 2012)

I don't know how to build a Ferrari, but if I had that kind of coin laying around I wouldn't mind owning and driving one.

With that being said I do enjoy training my own dogs and take pride in my work, but it is quite an undertaking to make a top quality retriever. I've got to respect the work, no matter who has done it.


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

It's kind of like having a son or daughter who are very intelligent. Maybe you taught them as much as you could about life. They could stay at home, work in the family business and you could continue their education yourself or they could take advantage of going off to a university for opportunities and further education that you simply couldn't provide. Neither approach is wrong, but not many who stay at home will have the same doors open for them later in life. It's all about what each individual feels is best for them in their situation, what they can afford, and how far they want their prodigies to go.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

If I get any more of a thrill after getting a FT ribbon than I do now (or heck, just making it out of the first series) the club would have to have someone standing by to do CPR. So for me, it's a safety issue to use a pro, so I don't feel quite so accomplished or satisfied, when I run my dogs.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Because you are realistic about your abilities as a trainer relative to a good pro and you want the very best for a talented dog.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Do you homeschool your children?


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

Do you do your own cut and tap on your electrical service?

For me, how many hunting dogs am I going to own the rest of my life?
2 maybe 3
How good at something you do once every 12 years can you be?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Cuz pros need to make a living too. 
While hunting on public ground here in UT just about every guy I see with a dog should use a pro and I wish they would cuz pros need to make a living too. Also most guys that I run across have no clue how to train and handle a dog and might as well leave them at home and retrieve their own ducks. Some have no desire to train their own dog but want a reliable obedient dog to hunt with, oh and did I mention cuz pros need to make a living too


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## DonBrou (Nov 14, 2012)

Ryan, I used a pro for 2 reasons. 1)To train the dogs and 2)To train me. I work about 60 hours a week, run 2 side businesses, maintain deer hunting property year round and train when I can. My 2 Ali pups spent 13 months with a pro to get them to the finished level. In that time I spent about 30 grand on training and equipment. I trained with the pro myself so that I wouldn't screw up what he accomplished with them. The money that I spent on training was money well spent. I knew that I didn't have the time to put in or the knowledge to get them to the finished level. These are high power dogs that will bust your balls if you don't know what you are doing. That's what pros are for. Now I have 2 awesome dogs that know what they need to do and how to do it. A little food for thought. You learn more by listening than making statements about something you obviously know little about.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

Nether one of my dogs have ever run from anyone else's side but my own whether in training or competition but I have trained with a couple of different pro's and some great amateur trainers. Without their exceptional knowledge and help I would never have achieved what I have to this point. I got my first lab after I retired so I have plenty of time to train by myself or with a group. If that was not the case I would have no doubt sent my dog to a pro until my dog and myself would have been ready to go out on our own. I love training and competing with my dogs but I also love the fact that there is a possibility that me and my dog can kick everyone else's butt on any given weekend.


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

I obviously asked a question and stated that I personally gain and enjoy more from training myself. Generally,when a question is posed, that person is looking for information(listening). Read my original post carefully...food for thought. And yes, I know very little about dropping $30,000 on a hobby. Which might be a reason you see such a lack of new members and participants at hunt test.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Because I am a lesser dog man than you are and I am trying to do may part to ruin the sport by having pros show up with 100 dogs on their truck and cause the minor stakes to wait for days for them to get over there.


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## Quacktastic (Oct 4, 2013)

Ryan said:


> I obviously asked a question and stated that I personally gain and enjoy more from training myself. Generally,when a question is posed, that person is looking for information(listening). Read my original post carefully...food for thought. And yes, I know very little about dropping $30,000 on a hobby. Which might be a reason you see such a lack of new members and participants at hunt test.


Thanks for sharing your important thoughts.


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## Gunssmoke3217 (Feb 12, 2013)

I was anti pro when I first got my first pup last november. I did a fine job with socializing, OB, etc. I couldnt get through FF. I swallowed my pride and went to a pro and I dont regret it one bit. He helped me break through the barrier and I am so fortunate of it. They are pros for a reason and if you find one you trust you will be amazed at the opportunities.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Training is a journey and it goes on throughout the life of the dog. Of course you know this. ???

Because someone uses a pro does not mean they are not training with their dog! It is not that simple, using a pro is part of building a team to help train and maybe campaign a dog. I do not run in Field Trials, only Hunt Tests, but even these tests now offer advances beyond MH. So with the added complexity using a pro helps both the handler(s) and dog progress to the highest possible level that the dog is capable of. It is key here to say that both dog and handler continue to learn. 

For me do to heavy travel requirements in my job (historically), and lack of training experience, using a pro has been my best option!


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## Garduck (Feb 1, 2013)

1)Access to land 
2) Quirky dog that needs a unique approach
3)environmental conditions do not allow daily training
4) Access to good help (alot of these dogs need to see 3 to four gunners 3 to 4 times a day if they are going to advance the sheer time, equipment, and personnel requirements are untenable for many 
5) Realistic understanding of ones limitations

There are a lot of very experienced handlers that have dogs in and out of training and spend alot of time day training with pros getting boththe benefits of having dog with pro and joy of working their personal dog


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


I have read your original post many times since it was started. I have also read the responses you've gotten.

The fact is that there is no "one size fits all". For all hobbies, products, markets, there are different needs and wants for different individuals. Everyone's situation is unique. Everyone's end goals are unique.

What are you trying to accomplish with this discussion? 

What do you want to get out of it?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ryan said:


> I obviously asked a question and stated that I personally gain and enjoy more from training myself. Generally,when a question is posed, that person is looking for information(listening). Read my original post carefully...food for thought. And yes, I know very little about dropping $30,000 on a hobby. Which might be a reason you see such a lack of new members and participants at hunt test.



That may generally be the case, but I and other readers did not find that to be the case with your post. You did not seek - and subsequently have not sought - information. Rather, you have sought to promote a position to which you ascribe and many others apparently do not.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I thought the OP's first post, was reasonable and fair game. 
When you get involved and meet people you come to understand why some chose to use a pro.
Without the pro's and their clients, the dog games would have a tough time being sustained.
I am fortunate to be able to train without ever having hired a pro, but the day may come when I need to make a choice.

Unfortunately Ryan showed his hand in post 27.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

I send my dogs to a pro for the FF and CC. I want it done right and I know that I don't have the strength, patience and knowledge to do these important steps without messing up somehow. This is my 5th dog at the pros and when I sent her I knew that I would get my moneys worth. The pro I use has taken a hiatus from running trials but I know his program. I thought at the time that some would not use a pro that was not running events but then I was at a couple of trials/test where other pros were there with dogs on the trucks that were not getting trained that weekend. I decided I was happy that my pup was at home getting the training I am paying for. I will pick her up at the end of the month (can't wait) and will continue working with her through the winter. He will give me the list of things that need to be done and I will call if I hit a snag. In the spring she will go back for a tune up and we will start to run derby (junior).Three or four months with him is more productive than 3 years with me. Also the training I get myself from him is priceless. I started with his father, who was not shy with his criticism about my handling. You don't really know how sloppy your handling is until you have someone standing behind you utter the words "What are you doing" and then makes you verbalize exactly what you were trying to accomplish and then makes you do it right.


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## AReinders (Apr 14, 2014)

...............


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

Chris,

Your response shows intelligence and confidence in your abilities and I appreciate your question. This was not a post to degrade what a pro does because I'm sure their and your abilities are greater than my own. I'm am simply wondering what people are getting out of all of this if they are not doing the work. Personally, my favorite part of all of this is spending hours training and problem solving issues. Without being able to spend time training, I wouldn't have a dog. I fully understand that everyone has a unique set of circumstances that are more challenging that makes a pro necessary. 


Unfortunately, what I have found is that like most instances, when you ask about a persons methods and reasoning they become defensive due to a fragile ego. 


In the end, I'm asking a question and giving reasons for why I do the way I do things. I was hoping to maybe gain some insight about the use of a pro because I have never had the experience to use one.


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

I spent years training dogs myself and found it very satisfying. Trained non collar and then used Lardy methods eventually training a british dog to HRCH and MH.At that point I really thought I knew a lot and decided to try FTs. After a couple of dogs, multiple seminars,throwing birds for pros I realized my ceiling as a do it yourselfer was Qualifying JAMs. I also gradually learned that I knew a lot less than I originally thought I did and that there is critical knowledge that you won't get from videos and seminars.

Since I started using a pro several years ago I have learned much more about training dogs than I ever would have on my own. Learning and participating in the process rather than the daily hands on work has become more and more satisfying.


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

Scott Adams said:


> I thought the OP's first post, was reasonable and fair game.
> When you get involved and meet people you come to understand why some chose to use a pro.
> Without the pro's and their clients, the dog games would have a tough time being sustained.
> I am fortunate to be able to train without ever having hired a pro, but the day may come when I need to make a choice.
> ...



Showed my hand?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Might as well give my two cents. I was a professional dog trainer in another venue for several years, training obedience, protection dogs and guard dogs in the City of Chicago. Also, have been a police service dog trainer and handler with a couple of stints in several police departments. That being said it is not the same as training field trial retrievers to championship status. In my opinion the attainment of those titles and the competition in the past 25 or 30 years has risen to heights that most of the framers of this sport never thought would occur. Many of the top Retriever pros are "specialists" from pre basics, basics, and into advanced work. It takes an exceptional dog to reach those goals and best training one can give the dog to compete. Sure some folks get lucky with a good dog (Mary Howley quote told me once it is hard to screw up a good dog) on their first try, others have dog after dog that attain field trial titles including some National Champions. There are Anti-pro folks out there, trained with one for 20 years, who say what satisfaction does one get out of not training their own dogs? It depends on your goals and the venue you are training. If hunt tests are your goals, HRC or AKC, yes, you can do it with out professional help, with a "good dog" , by have conventional wisdom, some dog sense, buying into a program and following the excellent material available. If your goals are a little lofty and the minor field trial stakes are your goal, the derby or qualifying can be done with a good dog and some experienced folks to mentor you. If you want a higher goal, such as I just want to finish a all-age stake or get a JAM, it might take more work, some great mentors and a good dog. IF you want to make a field champion, open or amateur or both, those are lofty goals, most folks need to seek the help of folks who have titled dogs at that level and/or seek the assistance of a professional trainer. It is the most difficult of the difficult of any of the dog sports in my opinion. It takes dedication, eat, sleep and breath the game. Where there is a will there is a way with money, time and yes using professional services. There are too many generalizations in this thread to make the various assumptions that the OP is asking. Yes, I have used a Pro on various occasions, why, because I want to win, and want a field champion. As Scott indicated he asked a legit question until #27 trying to "defend" his position without taking into the account with his lack of knowledge as I stated in the aforementioned.


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## somewhereinhouston (Sep 15, 2014)

For those of you who watch Game of Throne "Jon Snow you know nothing" That was me when I got first dog last year. I was smart enough to realize that is if you don't get the basics/foundations right you can really limit your dog. Sent him to a pro for 3 month to get OB,FF, CC and basics. I been training him ever since and running in him all tests ( for the last 10 months). I feel confident I can progress my dog now (with a little coaching and others) him having the solid foundation my trainer gave him. 

One other comment I will say about have a trainer at the beginning for me was he was going to *consistently* work my dog during the basics. So in that instance it saved me weeks and weeks of time and that is assuming I didn't make a bunch of mistakes.


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## Erin O'Brien (Mar 5, 2010)

Ryan said:


> In the end, I'm asking a question and giving reasons for why I do the way I do things. I was hoping to maybe gain some insight about the use of a pro because I have never had the experience to use one.


I think you don't need to use a pro because you're either not looking for the next FC or AFC, or you just don't know enough to realize that you don't have the grounds, the technical ponds, 4 bird boys, the know how, or the shot flyers once a week. Its fine that you don't want to spend 30k and want to do it yourself, and if you post one day that your dog got its FC or AFC I will be the first to say, wow that's incredible, you'll be one a select few. I did train my own dog and she was doing finished level work passing finished tests and couldn't make to the 4th series of a derby. The people that do send their dog to a pro mostly have a lot more than one dog, and train their other dogs while others are at pros so they still get a lot out of training their own dog, and they have the discretionary income to spend 30k a year on a hobby. From what I've been told, there's lots of joy when you handle a dog to the 10th series of a national Am even if it has been pro trained, and I'm willing to bet it was more joy than I felt when my dog got some hunt test titles before I sent her to a pro.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Back in the Dark Ages when I graduated from high school and then college, I did all my own mechanic work. Anything from a simple oil change or tune-up to tearing down an engine and rebuilding it was fair game. I loved it, and it was very gratifying. I can still remember the look of pride on my Dad's face when I overhauled a small engine he had that hadn't run in years and presented it to him in good working order. Back then, I had access to the shop and tools, and had the time to spare. 

Today, my time is at a premium and even a simple oil and lube job goes to my mechanic. It's not that I don't want to do it or can't do it...I just don't have the time. 

People use pros for many of the same reasons. They may not have the time/access to enough grounds/water/equipment, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. And while I used to go south for the winters to train, I'm not going any longer so guess what? This pro is putting her young dog on another pro's truck so he can keep training and progressing through the winter months when it's not possible here.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Ryan said:


> Chris,
> 
> Your response shows intelligence and confidence in your abilities and I appreciate your question. This was not a post to degrade what a pro does because I'm sure their and your abilities are greater than my own. I'm am simply wondering what people are getting out of all of this if they are not doing the work. Personally, my favorite part of all of this is spending hours training and problem solving issues. Without being able to spend time training, I wouldn't have a dog. I fully understand that everyone has a unique set of circumstances that are more challenging that makes a pro necessary.
> 
> ...



Ryan, 

Thanks. Did you gain that insight? I have seen several responses that seem to more than adequately fill this purpose.

I'd offer that the comments about ego are inconsistent with your part written in bold. 

If you seek for those who know the answers, to respond to your questions with quality information, you may want to refine the manner in which you pose the questions. 

I'm quite certain that some in this discussion are feeling that you are seeking to debate, rather than to understand.

Chris


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## DKR (May 9, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> Because I am a lesser dog man than you are and I am trying to do may part to ruin the sport by having pros show up with 100 dogs on their truck and cause the minor stakes to wait for days for them to get over there.



I've never seen a 100 Kennel Dog Truck, must be hell to park.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ryan said:


> I obviously asked a question and stated that I personally gain and enjoy more from training myself. Generally,when a question is posed, that person is looking for information(listening). Read my original post carefully...food for thought. And yes, I know very little about dropping $30,000 on a hobby. Which might be a reason you see such a lack of new members and participants at hunt test.


You clearly stirred the pot a bit with your first post as, despite you comment about not judging, the tone of your question came across as judge mental. I personally chalked that up as nievety on your part and tried to answer question honestly in my first post. I think the main disconnect is your apparent misconception regarding how people who use a pro relate to their dogs. 

Just because we use a pro doesn't mean we are hands off with our dog, we don't just send them off and receive a neat little " fully trained dog" package in return. Most of us spend hours-days-years running and training our own dog under a pro's watchful eye. Then we take those lessons home to run drills and other training set ups. We handle our own dogs in trials and hunt test, learning from mistakes and exalting when it goes right. We do this for the life of the dog and form an unbreakable bond, and we do it to be the best dog-handler team possible. The idea that your all do it yoursel approach is more rewarding is what we take umbrage with.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

There is a lot of satisfaction in training your own dog.

There is a lot more satisfaction when a pro actually does it way better.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I trained my first dog up to finished by myself, there was enjoyment in it, but it was a heck-o-alot of time and work to get there, and I made mistakes. That said once you have an excellent finished dog for multiple years; you get used to having one. The idea of starting from scratch and going back through it all again, becomes daunting. I don't see I'm missing out on much if I choose to let someone who has the time to devote, is better at certain aspects, and can do it faster, than I; do the grunt work, with an up and comer. While I enjoy (Hunt-Test-Trial) the finished dog, I already have. Some people enjoy the whole journey (training what-not), others much prefer utilizing the Finished product. I get more enjoyment out of hunting and running a finished dog, than teaching-training a started dog; I believe most people who have had and are used to having a finished dog are the much same.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Like others I trained my first dog through AKC JH, SH, and MH and NAHRA SR and WR mostly by myself and with help from my amateur mentor Jim Mitchell. After that I switched to field trials and realized right off the bat I would need a pro. Now on my third and forth FT dogs, (I have two eight year old AA dogs). 

I can lay out the tight timeline of a typical FT dog. Bring a seven week old pup home, from there to about six months lots of puppy basics done by you at home. Then if you are interested in pursuing a derby career (many serious FT'ers don't care about the derby), you need solid basics through, handling, water de-cheat and big marking setups over the next 6-8 months. That will give you ten months or so to run the derby before the dog ages out at two. Then hopefully in and out of the Qualifying before age three when most dogs start running the all age stakes. Most dogs take a year or so to settle in before they do well, assuming they are really good dogs. Despite a fair number of young prodigies, most dogs really hit their stride around age six. That leaves 3-5 years to run all age stakes, gain a title and accumulate points. Of course your dog could wash out anywhere along that time, or heaven forbid get a career ending injury, or just be slow to develop, so you can see how important it is to be efficient in progressing your dog from young pup to legitimate all age competitor. For many of us, a good pro speeds the process along.


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## llauck (Feb 4, 2014)

Ryan, 

You say you have kids. Do you ever get a tutor or a coach to help your kids? I agree with you 100% about the fun in training your own dog. But I also know us parents are limited. You may want to ask some pros if you can have them assist you in training, i.e. coaching you at their facility as opposed to leaving your dog. Then they can teach you what your dog really needs to work on so both of you learn. Pros are just that...pros. Also, our club members always ask this question when a new member with a new dog wants help, we ask "What are your goals with your dog?" Many of us can train our dogs and grab a bunch of ribbons and ducks along the way. That is very achievable vs. the hours required for a field champion. Bottom line, have fun with your dog. We have them for only a short time so don't sweat the small stuff.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I've only been in this for 11 years now and have had 3 dogs. I've used a Pro from day 1. My very first dog I had no clue what went into a finished dog. Finished being at least a HRCH or MH. I also knew that I needed the help of a Pro to get my dog to where I wanted him to be. I did not have the time or knowledge at all. I picked up my very first puppy and I followed a puppy program my trainer laid out for me. 6 months later I dropped off my puppy to my Pro and was very excited to start this phase of his training. One thing I also knew was that I was going to be involved in his training as much as I could. I also wanted my Pro to teach me how to handle my dog in the HT's. After a month or so of my dog being with my Pro I started coming every other week to work with the both of them, my dog and Pro that is. So at 9 months old I run my 1st JH test with my dog. 2nd most nervous I have ever been running a dog. We get our 1st two JH passes that weekend and I'm hooked. Over the next 18 months or so we go through a lot of trials and tribulations with my 1st dog. We finally earn our MH title and at the same time qualify for our 1st Master National. Unfortunately I didn't get to handle him in that MN. Or the next one. Work got in the way both times. The 3rd one he qualified for I handled him in that one. This was the MN in Texas a while back. I'm in the holding blind watching the dog before me at the line and I'm about to pass out I'm so nervous. This was the most nervous i have ever been handling my dog. Now it's our turn to run and I finally calm down.

So why that drawn out story? No way I could have gotten there without my Pro. I did handle my dog to his title and qualified him for 2 of those MN's and a couple of more after that, but the issues that popped up before getting there I couldn't have fixed. That dog is 11 now and last year he ran his last MH test. Along the way we've hunted the rice fields of LA, open water off the NC coast, beaver ponds, goose fields, duck impoundments and just about any type of waterfowl hunting you could think of. The most rewarding part of all of this is growing up in this game with my first dog and also experiencing all the different types of hunts we have over the years. 

Since that first dog I have had 2 other dogs with the same pro. I've learned a lot over the last 11 years and I could probably train a dog to reach the MH level on my own if I had the time and grounds to do so. I don't and I also realize that I don't have the experience and knowledge to work out possible issues that may arise. What is even more important is that I may not even realize an issue is developing because of me and what I am doing. My Pro will not make those mistakes I probably will. For the most part I handle my own dogs and love every bit of it. When I'm at the line and my dog nails his marks and he lines his blinds, that's my reward! That is why I hired a Pro. BTW I've been with the same Pro for 11 yrs now and we've become pretty good friends. We work really well together and it's pretty rare that I'm not at a HT or FT with him, either running my own dog or helping him with the other dogs on the truck. I've even ran his personal dogs when he couldn't for whatever reason. This whole journey has been immensely rewarding. None of it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't hired a Pro.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

ryan,

for me there is nothing that compares to a clear, cool, crisp, autumn afternoon, outdoors in the field, sitting in a fine chair, watching exceptional dog work and drinking exceptional bourbons. because i have an inexhaustable supply of money and fine bourbons and a finite number of fine afternoons left, i choose to use a pro.

i see these little people working hard to put on these events, running here and there and then rushing to air and take their dog to the line. though i don't ever really become aquainted with these folk, i assume they must train their own dogs? i imagine nasty dead birds, nasty flyers, stinky kennels, untidy whistles laying on the dashboard of their truck.........from where i sit this seems very unfortunate.

my trophy wife enjoys sitting in chairs on gorgeous days, pouring bourbons and being my designated driver. as such, we are a happy couple with never a conflict over me spending time away training, keeping birds here and there, dollars expended on hobbies, etc.

one last word, if you can only find pleasure in what you are able to accomplish alone, life will be less fulfilling.....especially sexually!;-)


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Apparently Sherry has seen the light and moved on although she was as fine a trophy as you will ever get. Better than you deserve for sure. Please introduce me to the new one sometime.
I just can't imagine her "sitting in chairs on gorgeous days, pouring bourbons and being my designated driver. as such, we are a happy couple with never a conflict over me spending time away training, keeping birds here and there, dollars expended on hobbies, etc."
Especially not complaining about you spending time away and training.
Wake up and carry on.
MP


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## BentleysMom (Nov 6, 2010)

Because when it is 20 below outside and 2 feet of snow I don't feel like training!! I know my dog is out swimming in the warm water down south somewhere! Plus I am lazy and I just like watching them run. Hey, its my fun so I do it my way!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


I never learned to drive a car on my own either 

Some want to drive Formula 1 cars.
I would probably stall Jenson Buttons


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

roseberry said:


> ryan,
> 
> for me there is nothing that compares to a clear, cool, crisp, autumn afternoon, outdoors in the field, sitting in a fine chair, watching exceptional dog work and drinking exceptional bourbons. because i have an inexhaustable supply of money and fine bourbons and a finite number of fine afternoons left, i choose to use a pro.
> 
> ...












See Also >http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lib6lzkIJ21qcnhhzo1_r1_500.gif


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Thanks. Did you gain that insight? I have seen several responses that seem to more than adequately fill this purpose.
> 
> ...


Damn! Slammed by the Janitor after only 7 posts. Gotta be a record.:razz:


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> Damn! Slammed by the Janitor after only 7 posts. Gotta be a record.:razz:


Maybe, but remember it's not what you do but, how you do it........

Peanut regards ....


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Scott Adams said:


> Unfortunately Ryan showed his hand in post 27.





Ryan said:


> Showed my hand?


Thinking Scott may have made an unfortunate typo in the vowel he used for what was shown...



polmaise said:


> I never learned to drive a car on my own either :grin:
> 
> Some want to drive Formula 1 cars.
> 
> I would probably stall Jenson Buttons


Just for you, Robt., (well really for Ryan-come-lately via your analogy), a non-pro-trained project from start to "finish:"






MG

Full disclaimer: I don't use a pro - and it shows, exponentially so.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Yea MG. Brakes and steering are often the main cause of '*crash and burn*' for retriever's and handlers of Exocet missiles .


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Good list. I would add opportunity cost as well; you can't spend the same time twice. Some of us are economically better off to let the dog pro do what he does while we do what we do. Something about specialization of labor.

A good pro is expensive for sure, but worth it.



Garduck said:


> 1)Access to land
> 2) Quirky dog that needs a unique approach
> 3)environmental conditions do not allow daily training
> 4) Access to good help (alot of these dogs need to see 3 to four gunners 3 to 4 times a day if they are going to advance the sheer time, equipment, and personnel requirements are untenable for many
> ...


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

Wow! A bunch of internet tough guys. After someone ask a question. I bet your wife is proud.


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## farmbabe (Aug 1, 2014)

Ryan-I know what your motivation is in asking your "question" since the same "question" is asked of those in the horse world that sends their show horse out to the trainer. Lets be honest- you aren't seeking answers as much as trying to make a point.

In the horse world- many owners don't have the space for a barn and arena nor the time to ride everyday or know how to train. They simply love showing their horse and want to have a hobby they can enjoy so the horse lives with the trainer,is ridden daily,taken to the venue,worked and prepared for the show. To many do it yourselfers- they then assume these owners aren't "real" horsemen. So they ask question such as yours to belittle the ability and horsemanship of the "rich" owners and make themselves "purist" for the sport. i usually send my horse out for the winter when its cold and harder for me to find the time to ride. its expensive to hire a pro- I know but since I want to learn and compete with the bigger boys I do what i can.

All of this is EXACTLY the same with FT-people who love the dogs and the sport but for their own reasons need the help of a pro. Maybe its lack of time,space or skill. maybe its because they want to have a trainer handle and work the dog. Who knows and how cares? None of my business. Personally i don't compete with my dog and don't plan to. I just enjoy my buddy,love hunting fowl and like the whole process of training. That is what its all about.


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

You know my motivation???? I didn't know you knew me so well. In fact, I possess the means to purchase the time with a pro if I chose. What is even more interesting about your wealth knowledge about me is that this was a question to see why others do it and if I should consider it myself. 

Nice try though.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ryan said:


> You know my motivation???? I didn't know you knew me so well. In fact, I possess the means to purchase the time with a pro if I chose. What is even more interesting about your wealth knowledge about me is that this was a question to see why others do it and if I should consider it myself.
> 
> Nice try though.


No, none of know your motivation and sorry if it seems you have been piled on. Actually the pro vs amateur question pops up an a fairly regular basis in one form or another, and usually leads to a fairly heated debate. I am usually on the amateur side of the argument as many believe that it is almost impossible to train a dog to the FC-AFC level without pro help. I usually point out a few 100% amateurs who have done it, and many other amateurs who mostly train their own dogs, albeit with some pro help along the way. Many of us gave you some solid reasons why people use pros before things heated up, but you seemed to want to debate those reasons rather than just accept that there are many different approaches and none are superior.

As for you using a pro; it seems you are doing a good job by yourself, if you have discovered a hole in your training and are puzzled how to deal with it, consulting with a pro can really help. Personally I really think using a solid "young dog" pro for building that foundation age six months into the derby. After that an amateur who really knows what he's doing can take over, though occasional day training on pro land and pro set-ups are valuable. 

Like I said, sorry you were piled on, but it is pretty obvious a lot of people either misinterpreted your follow up post as a challenge or just felt very strong on the subject.

John


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## Gerald Kelley (Apr 26, 2010)

Here is my 2 cents on hiring a pro. Basically for me I want a dog that is 3-4 years old and finished out. If I did it my self my dog would be 9 and still not were I want it to be. I work 48+ ours a week, have militarty drill one weekend of the month(numerous other calls and emails involved during the month as well) only leaving 6 other days off a month(pending im not working on of those days as well). I have 3 kids that require a lot of my free time. My oldest has sports 3 days a week at least 2 hours each practice then the game could be anywere from home to a two plus hour drive just to get there. If I trained a dog completly on my own we would never get aware. When I do go out to work with the dogs I want to refresh learned skills, condition or hunt them. I learned along time ago how valuable my time was. I worked construction for 9 years, if the house needs a simple fix im on it. If its a big job someones getting hired to finish it in a timely manner. I view the dogs the same way. Secondly I don't have the training background, equipment and mostly the patience to trick the dog into doing what I want. 
Others said something about comparing it to kids. I can do that as well. I have a college degree and struggle with my kids homework at times. I couldn't imagine homeschooling them. My dogs the same way. Send them to the pro so its done right. Then I gain enough knowledge to use the finished product and have fun. Just my reasoning, Im sure others have theirs.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

The comparisons to kids are off base I think. Dogs we love and are a hobby, pet, companion, and I know we tend to probably love them more than we love most other people, but if your dog doesn't live up to it's potential in the games we play, we're the only ones who care. The dog is perfectly happy to be with you, and as long as you provide a dog with his basic needs and treat him well, he's going to be perfectly fine and have a very successful life - the dogs don't care about winning ribbons or what letters are on their pedigrees. With kids, you have a responsibility to give the kid every opportunity to have a successful life (and there are different measures of that) but in most cases, if you mess up on your kid (and all parents do) it can cause them problems down the road that make them have a less successful life than they could have.

If people didn't send their dogs off to pros to be trained (and run, and many times live full time with the pro) then it wouldn't be nearly as challenging as an amateur to compete in the FT game without sending your dog to a pro. I think that's the main objection people have that train their own dogs against those who use pros, and if there was a way to limit a stake to only non-professionally trained dogs, that would probably be a good thing, but there's not, and there are all kinds of levels of professional help - from help with FF only, to a pro helping you train as a mentor/teacher as you learn how to do it, to the pros who keep and campaign dogs pretty much full time for their competitive years.

Bottom line though, it's different strokes for different folks. I imagine you would get more satisfaction for having trained your own dog to NFC level than having it professionally done. I'd imagine if you also bred that pup you'd get even more satisfaction from it, but that doesn't diminish the satisfaction of those who only spectate as a pro breeds, trains, and campaigns their dog to that same NFC title, or any others along the continuum from no pro involvement to total pro involvement. And if someone doesn't have the time or the expertise to train their own dog, but gets enjoyment out of it, who am I to judge that?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Ryan said:


> Wow! A bunch of internet tough guys. After someone ask a question. I bet your wife is proud.


Unfortunately, yours must be disappointed in your message board trolling skills.

Usually best to start with a slow burn, kind of get the lay of the land before starting in on the trolling. Much less obvious and ultimately more effective.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

To truly compete you do NOT compete w/an animal but compete as a human w/other humans in your chosen venue especially if you want to find out if you have the "right stuff." Everything else is random and misplaced human ego. Dogs are a tool as are pros . Personally , I find pleasure in beating pro run/trained dogs. Sick !


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


 Just read this thread through now. I personally like to teach and train my own dog. I have fun doing so. Having said that when I day train w/ Al. A. pro, I gleam much information more than you can imagine JUST BY WATCHING AND LISTENING. I can see why after 3y of being in Ft myself, some would choose this route for various reasons to have a pro train their dog. So IMHO there are many ways to train and enjoy your dog.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Think about it... 

Say a pro has 10 dogs on his/her truck and on any given day will do 2 blinds/dog (minimum.) That's 20 blinds/day, 5 days/week (if they ever take a weekend off... which is unlikely) and you have 100 blinds per week or 5,200 blinds/year. (And this is a low ball estimate.) So if you're lucky enough to get a chance to train with a pro, how could you _NOT_ pick up handling skills?


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

However a pro has only limited time w/each dog on a daily basis if they are to give all client's dogs a fair shake. In reality , they favor their best dogs because that gives them paying client status. They require assistant trainers to do young dog/ problem dog training if they are to attend/travel to Fri-Sat-Sun trials. An amateur can spend far more time and effort on his animal given his terrain/set-up possibilities. It is an individual choice argument if you do not belong to a club w/land and active training members. Circumstance dictates choices.


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


It is fine you don't get why some folks use pro trainers. I love my dogs as much as anyone and that is why I choose to use a pro trainer. Yes there are many resources out there including pro trainers as mentors. There are also mentors and resources for Calculus and Quantum Physics. Having the right resources do not ensure success. I may get some knowledge from the training resources but that doesn't mean I will be a good trainer nor does having some knowledge about Quantum Physics mean I can get in job in that field. I am glad you take responsibilty and are accoutable for the dogs training. The point in running a dog trained by others is pure joy. I find joy in driving my truck but I didn't build that either. Yes many of us are busy but that is not the only reason some folks don't train their own dogs. You are blessed as am I in having a job and family. Training when you can is great for you. 

Until the last 3 sentences "Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too." I would agree you were not judgemental. In my opinion you did become judgemental when you inserted your own personal situation and how it influences your training.

I really do wish you the best with your dogs.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

swliszka said:


> However a pro has only limited time w/each dog on a daily basis if they are to give all client's dogs a fair shake. In reality , they favor their best dogs because that gives them paying client status. They require assistant trainers to do young dog/ problem dog training if they are to attend/travel to Fri-Sat-Sun trials. An amateur can spend far more time and effort on his animal given his terrain/set-up possibilities. It is an individual choice argument if you do not belong to a club w/land and active training members. Circumstance dictates choices.


OK. So now that I'm retired, I'm training and (will eventually be) running my own dog at HT's. BUT... I am still very much enriched by training with a pro because now the pro is training ME. In return (and it's not necessarily a fair trade) I take a turn running one of the wingers, help setting up and tearing down etc.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

That is why I said that circumstance dictates choices. Your individual life - your choice.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

He gone.......


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## jackh (Oct 14, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Wow! A bunch of internet tough guys. After someone ask a question. I bet your wife is proud.












I had a feeling.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Thanks. Did you gain that insight? I have seen several responses that seem to more than adequately fill this purpose.
> 
> ...


Ryan, please answer this. 

I'm not being a tough guy and being as sincere as I can.


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

Chris, 


I did get some answers. I see that at some points in training a person may get stuck on an issue and will use a pro to assist them. That makes perfect sense. I have been fortunate enough to have some fantastic mentors that can walk me through any issue that arise and have not needed the support of a pro (not yet anyways). 


I also understand that some honestly don't have the time to train as needed to achieve a goal due to travel and other obligations and challenges. 


As I stated before., the daily grind is what I enjoy. Prior to being so involved with dogs, I spent years training and fighting sanctioned mma fights. My attraction to that sport was the same as this one. It took a daily grind and there was nobody to blame good or bad when a fight was over but yourself. 


I believe that this like anything else this is a personal choice based on personal gains an d options. 


I do find it highly unfortunate that most replies (not all) were geared to insult and not be helpful to a question from a guy that simply is trying to gain information as I am still learning. These statements do not make for good ambassadors for this sport of which is in need of new members. 


By the way, what is a troll? I've never used a forum enough to know


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it. If you are doing this for the love of dogs and what they can accomplish, then why would you not want to train your own dog. Many would say knowledge and to that I respond; there are plenty of resources and mentors to help with that. Moreover, I know I'm not as good of a trainer as most pros but I can always take pride in saying that with my dogs fails and successes that it was my time and effort that is to blame. What is the point of running a dog that you didn't train yourself. Others might lament the time that it takes and they are busy. Well, I have a job and a bunch of kids too. You train when you can and sometimes not as much as you would like too. Not judging anyone, just a thought.


Ryan,

I think to a lot of the folks who replied, your initial post sounded like you were saying that pros aren't necessary because there are other resources and that anyone who didn't train their own dog was being lazy. 

I understand that you were trying to come up with answers as to why anyone would use a pro, because you don't want to/prefer not to....but the overall tone of your first post was dissing people who use pros.


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## Ninja (Feb 4, 2014)

Everyone wants to have great dog they can brag about. Some choose to do that the easy way.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Ninja said:


> Everyone wants to have great dog they can brag about. Some choose to do that the easy way.


Easy peasy lemon squeezy! Buy a pup, toss it hotdogs for a few months, send it off to a young dog pro and wait for the derby ribbons to start rolling in. Then move on to a big dog pro and in a year or so they will tell you when you need to show up for pre-national training. Nothing could be easier :roll:


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> Easy peasy lemon squeezy! Buy a pup, toss it hotdogs for a few months, send it off to a young dog pro and wait for the derby ribbons to start rolling in. Then move on to a big dog pro and in a year or so they will tell you when you need to show up for pre-national training. Nothing could be easier :roll:


Yep, that's exactly what it's like... I did notice the eye roll LOL.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ninja said:


> Everyone wants to have great dog they can brag about.


The term "great" is much over used, most will rarely see and will probably never own a great competitive retriever.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ryan said:


> I see many folks stating that their dogs are "with the pro" or "just back from the pro" and I just don't get it.


You have answers and you have had answers.

Some do ,some don't !
It's like everything else in life .


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

Ryan said:


> As I stated before., the daily grind is what I enjoy. Prior to being so involved with dogs, I spent years training and fighting sanctioned mma fights. My attraction to that sport was the same as this one. It took a daily grind and there was nobody to blame good or bad when a fight was over but yourself.


*NO COMPETITIVE FIGHTER* trains or competes without a coach (pro) or extensive work with training partners. And further, they are not successful without very good coaches and training partners. It's much more of a team effort than you portray. Bad analogy.


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## Ryan (Sep 28, 2012)

mathewrodriguez said:


> *NO COMPETITIVE FIGHTER* trains or competes without a coach (pro) or extensive work with training partners. And further, they are not successful without very good coaches and training partners. It's much more of a team effort than you portray. Bad analogy.



Read carefully. The similarity was 1) daily grind and 2) being alone during competition. I have training partners and a "coach" from our club. Comparing the two for training would be unreasonable.


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

I'm reading that you are changing tones consistently in this post for argument sake. Your daily grind comparison maybe appropriate for someone who simply works out at the gym, but not a truly competitive fighter. It takes a team... much the same with a truly competitive dog.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Personally I would never use a pro for HT but then FT is another story.
My very first dog went through SH with a breeze after that found out he had bad hips so I quit running him. The next two I had little problem getting the master title and even QAA. At that time I was working 60 plus hours a week and just trained on weekends. One thing is that I didn't have kids that required my attention on weekends but if my time was that limited I probably wouldn't have been so involved with my dogs. Also if I would have had kids I probably wouldnt have been able to afford being so involved with my dogs.
I believe anybody with a little dog sense and a good dog that is willing to put in some time (and it really doesn't take the much) can train a dog to do Master work.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Ryan:
Most owners who use pro's step to line "alone during competition" Their pro's may or may not be there for advice, but while running a test it is just the handler and his/her decisions. Some dogs are run in open, by pro's only. Their owners cannot or chose to not run the dog themselves. Why shouldn't they want to take part in ant way they can?
There is room for everyone in the dog games, and I am happy to compete against them all.
There IS a great satisfaction in stepping to line with a dog that has been your work from start to finish. That should be an inner pride, not an outward one.
I would encourage you to continue training as an amateur. Seek help and knowledge from anyone you think you can get it from. Pro's and good amateurs alike.
Success comes more slowly to the working amateur, in most cases, but it does come, if you are a student of the game.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Steve Shaver said:


> Personally I would never use a pro for HT but then FT is another story.
> My very first dog went through SH with a breeze after that found out he had bad hips so I quit running him. The next two I had little problem getting the master title and even QAA. At that time I was working 60 plus hours a week and just trained on weekends. One thing is that I didn't have kids that required my attention on weekends but if my time was that limited I probably wouldn't have been so involved with my dogs. Also if I would have had kids I probably wouldnt have been able to afford being so involved with my dogs.
> I believe anybody with a little dog sense and a good dog that is willing to put in some time (and it really doesn't take the much) can train a dog to do Master work.


Well said, I agree completely.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> The term "great" is much over used, most will rarely see and will probably never own a great competitive retriever.


Or if they get the rare one won't know what they have and the direction to go..


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Ryan said:


> Read carefully. The similarity was 1) daily grind and 2) being alone during competition. I have training partners and a "coach" from our club. Comparing the two for training would be unreasonable.


Ryan, you a member of SWMO HRC Club? Did you run last weekend, how did it go?

Once you get the HRCH go for the MH and then Grand titles and you may realize the importance of using a pro sometimes. If you are able to get it all done by yourself that is fantastic. Just difficult for a lot of folks.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

oh the irony.....




> Maintaining the Finished Retriever?So my dog is home, aside from signing a few checks
> I can not take any credit for the things he has accomplished.
> I live in the city.......dont have access to alot of what he is used to.
> .... is there a book or something that can give me ideas of what to do with my dog......
> ....


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?111636-Maintaining-the-Finished-Retriever


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