# Michael Ellis - New DVD



## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

I just completed a 2 day course at the Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers in California. Michael is a truly gifted trainer who teaches reward based motivational training for all dogs of all disciplines, including protection sports (his sport of choice.) I have a 4 year old, black lab who was trained utilizing Michael's training techniques; he is highly motivated and mutil-talented in dog sports (agility, dock diving, nosework, field training and bite work). 

Michael recently acquired two black lab pups who he will be rearing to complete a field training DVD utilizing motivational reward based training demonstrating all the standard field drills. From what I understand there will be no traditional pressure based force fetch methods - purely motivational reward based training. It will include force to water, force to pile, etc... Before anyone begins the discussion that field training cannot be reliable without pressure, please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse methods. However, his foundation work is reward based and this is where he will begin the DVD. 

I am incredibly excited to see Michael's evolution into field training. The retriever world will be a better place with his teaching techniques. 

For those who are unfamiliar with Michael Ellis here is a link to his training philosophy. 

http://michaelellisschool.com/lecture.htm

Tanya and Enzo
San Jose, California


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

That will be very exciting to see!! I think he is an amazing trainer!!

Kathryn


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

I've seen some of his stuff and he is very good.
I'm curious about the new dvd.


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

Very interesting. I love Ellis' stuff. One of the best out there IMO. A really good communicator with dogs and people and seems to really understand how to train a dog using all 4 quadrants. Interested to see how his retriever experiment goes.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

I am curious too, I have a pile of his DVD's and they are all good. One of my puppy buyers also attended a seminar with him recently (maybe the same one as you Tanya) and was telling me about his new Lab puppy project. I assume that he has worked with some field trainers to learn the 'traditional' process and see what the finished product looks like and will be adapting from that?


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

Erin Lynes said:


> I am curious too, I have a pile of his DVD's and they are all good. One of my puppy buyers also attended a seminar with him recently (maybe the same one as you Tanya) and was telling me about his new Lab puppy project. I assume that he has worked with some field trainers to learn the 'traditional' process and see what the finished product looks like and will be adapting from that?


Good point. It think it would be very tough for even the best trainer to go in and train a MH or above without a bit of an apprenticeship (perhaps a long one), learning what is expected of the dog and how folks have traditionally gotten there. I don't know Michael personally but after seeing a bunch of his DVDs I think if anyone can do it, he could. 

Interested to find out more...


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

Erin Lynes said:


> I am curious too, I have a pile of his DVD's and they are all good. One of my puppy buyers also attended a seminar with him recently (maybe the same one as you Tanya) and was telling me about his new Lab puppy project. I assume that he has worked with some field trainers to learn the 'traditional' process and see what the finished product looks like and will be adapting from that?


Erin, I assume she took the puppy development class last month; which isn't the same one I took this week. He mentioned doing extensive research on the retriever training process, pedigrees/lineage, accomplishments, etc... and will be developing the DVD based upon traditional drills but applying his current motivational methods to accomplish the same results. Knowing Michael, he just won't take to the field and begin working retrievers, he will do his homework and study behavioral fallout from traditional methods and find a way to apply operant conditioning to achieve the desired result. Like someone else said, if there is anyone who could do reward based retriever training it's definitely Michael Ellis. The things he's accomplished for protection sport world is unparalleled when you see is dogs work.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

That is neat to hear, thanks for letting us know! Did he say how long this will take? If he has puppies and has to do research, are we looking at 3 yrs down the road? Even if so, It will be welcome!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Are you saying Ellis is going to try to demonstrate all of the drills using only two quadrants? 

With the right dog that isn't exactly rocket science. 

He'll produce a nice DVD though. He is one of the best public speakers and presenters of training theory I have ever seen (and I study something every single day).


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

Jennifer Henion said:


> That is neat to hear, thanks for letting us know! Did he say how long this will take? If he has puppies and has to do research, are we looking at 3 yrs down the road? Even if so, It will be welcome!


I said...so it won't be another year until it's done!??! and he said, no, he and his assistant trainer Lindsay each will raise a pup and incorporate them into the DVD as they grow up. So it should be less than a year. He's already done his background research. From what he said, they're ready to start filming soon. As I know more I will post (I'm hoping to be kept in some kind of loop to know what's going on. At the very least I will send him periodic emails to (hopefully) get an update.)


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> Are you saying Ellis is going to try to demonstrate all of the drills using only two quadrants?
> 
> With the right dog that isn't exactly rocket science.
> 
> He'll produce a nice DVD though. He is one of the best public speakers and presenters of training theory I have ever seen (and I study something every single day).


Yes, but keep in mind it's only the foundation training which he will gear towards field work. Once the dog knows the command, Michael is not opposed to using correction. How far he takes the training into the field will depend on the DVD's success I'm sure. You can bet I'll keep the bug in his ear


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Enzos Mom said:


> Yes, but keep in mind it's only the foundation training which he will gear towards field work. Once the dog knows the command, Michael is not opposed to using correction. How far he takes the training into the field will depend on the DVD's success I'm sure. You can bet I'll keep the bug in his ear


I'm very familiar with his work, at least as much as one can be without having attended the school. Thanks for the heads up.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Enzos Mom said:


> ...keep in mind it's only the foundation training which he will gear towards field work. Once the dog knows the command, Michael is not opposed to using correction. How far he takes the training into the field will depend on the DVD's success I'm sure...


Interesting to follow, as Mr. Ellis not long ago told a friend who inquired about e-collar use with schutzhund, if I may paraphrase, to "follow the retriever trainers, they're light years ahead of everybody else at how they use the collar." So how far he takes his training into the field _*might*_ depend on something other than DVD sales...

MG


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

don't count Ellis out because anything to do with the collar. check out his DVD's on the topic and you'll see pretty quickly that he absolutely gets the concepts...


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

crackerd said:


> Interesting to follow, as Mr. Ellis not long ago told a friend who inquired about e-collar use with schutzhund, if I may paraphrase, to "follow the retriever trainers, they're light years ahead of everybody else at how they use the collar." So how far he takes his training into the field _*might*_ depend on something other than DVD sales...
> 
> MG


When "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar. 

I'm inclined to think that the paraphrase is taken out of context. Yes, field training has successfully used the collar to incorporate training better than the way most people first used the concept of the ecollar; however, I believe ME is now using a much more effective way of ecollar training with much less fallout if any.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Enzos Mom said:


> I'm inclined to think that the paraphrase is taken out of context. Yes, field training has successfully used the collar to incorporate training better than the way most people first used the concept of the ecollar; however, I believe ME is now using a much more effective way of ecollar training with much less fallout if any.



I don't know. There are some pretty brilliant retriever trainers out there, and I doubt that Michael Ellis would challenge that.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Enzos Mom said:


> When "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar.
> 
> I'm inclined to think that the paraphrase is taken out of context. Yes, field training has successfully used the collar to incorporate training better than the way most people first used the concept of the ecollar; however,* I believe ME is now using a much more effective way of ecollar training with much less fallout if any*.


Good for you....The more you understand the tools we use...The better trainer you will be with your dog. 

I would like to believe ME is you.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Enzos Mom said:


> When "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar.


Your lack of understanding of how retriever trainers really do their work is the problem with your perception.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> Your lack of understanding of how retriever trainers really do their work is the problem with your perception.


My 'lack of understanding' ... that's a huge assumption on your part.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

Buzz said:


> I don't know. There are some pretty brilliant retriever trainers out there, and I doubt that Michael Ellis would challenge that.


No doubt. Everyone can choose to use the tools in the manner that works for them. There is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Enzos Mom said:


> *When "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards*. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar.


By your use of "'teaching' concepts," 'fraid your naivete's showing. Unless your idea of a "concept" is a single marked retrieve. Do you know how "not to pressure our dog into compliance" with a middle indent retired triple, or an in-line triple with middle gun retired? Or a hip-pocket thrown into the flier station? What's your "motivational reward" for any of those? Or how would you use (or not) the e-collar in trying to master those concepts?



Enzos Mom said:


> I'm inclined to think that the paraphrase is taken out of context. Yes, field training has successfully used the collar to incorporate training better than the way most people first used the concept of the ecollar; however, I believe ME is now using a much more effective way of ecollar training with much less fallout if any.


Again, "much less fallout" relative to whom and for teaching just what, exactly, in terms of advanced training?

Come back with a report on Mr. Ellis' progress (which he undoubtedly will make as an outstanding obedience trainer) when _*you*_ have a better grasp of how retriever trainers use the e-collar in advancing their dogs instead of limiting "fallout."

MG


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Traditional Retriever Training is not all that she doesn't understand.
Michael Ellis is NOT a 2Q believer, or trainer.

He has even come out and said in plain English, that you really can't train a dog by using nothing but Positive Reinforcement.

Start watching at the 35 minute mark.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Enzos Mom said:


> My 'lack of understanding' ... that's a huge assumption on your part.


Reading your posts, you're either advocating something that really doesn't need an advocate, or you don't understand how a retriever trainer really trains.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> don't count Ellis out because anything to do with the collar. check out his DVD's on the topic and you'll see pretty quickly that he absolutely gets the concepts...


I totally agree. 

I am interested in what he says.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I've posted links to Ellis many times. In fact, to the above video itself. 

He has a really simple system of markers and communication that I find very useful with dogs of all shapes and sizes. 

He is a good communicator and puts the science into English for you. He also has a vast amount of knowledge that sounds like it's based on experience and extensive research. 

If he is able to address some of the common issues in early retriever development using his system, I think people would benefit. 

From there his philosophy on pressure is very similar if not exactly the same as the nationally accepted retriever programs.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

gdgnyc said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> I am interested in what he says.


He has a three part series available streaming from leerburg for about $75 George.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I don't think that Enzo's Mom said that Michael Ellis is a 2Q trainer. 

I do believe that she is praising him for using all four quadrants.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> He has a three part series available streaming from leerburg for about $75 George.


I haven't visited his website for a while but I really like what he says. And as you say, he is an excellent communicator.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> He has a three part series available streaming from leerburg for about $75 George.


What should I look for? I'm on the website now.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

gdgnyc said:


> I don't think that Enzo's Mom said that Michael Ellis is a 2Q trainer.
> 
> I do believe that she is praising him for using all four quadrants.


Read it again. 

I do believe that she is incorrectly praising him for NOT using two of the quadrants, and simultaneously (and also incorrectly) accusing Traditional Retriever Trainers of ONLY using those same two quadrants that she doesn't like.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

copterdoc

Post #1 says "...please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse (sic) methods."

I think that she is advocating motivational training during the "teaching" portion of a dog's training. Aversives come later. (Teach, force, reinforce.)


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

MIke E is a great teacher and speaker. He has the necessary info ready to speak in correct order for learning.

I'm sure like any great trainer who has switched disciplines that there will be a learning curve,,,,whether you went from winning retriever nationals to training bomb dogs , or from retriever training to schutzhund ,,, or winning nationals to agility ,or whatever. It takes time to learn the new system and the little nuances that come with it. The more disciplines you cross over to the easier it is to incorporate methods and techniques. 

In the training world individuals in each discipline thinks the're discipline is the most difficult to master,,, the retriever world is often the most closed minded about how to train a dog,, not quite sure why tht is. But it still WAY behind in puppy development,, which I am seeing as one of the most crucial periods in the dogs life in which a trainer should capitalize on.

Pete


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Nice post, Pete.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

crackerd said:


> i Do you know how "not to pressure our dog into compliance" with a middle indent retired triple, or an in-line triple with middle gun retired? Or a hip-pocket thrown into the flier station? What's your "motivational reward" for any of those? Or how would you use (or not) the e-collar in trying to master those concepts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would NOT ever attemp to use an ecollar to "pressure your dog into compliance" in these situations. The collar IMHO would be counter productive and serve to make your dog nervous and give him the "Escalon Shuffles" IMHO the dog needs to be relaxed and confident on these. You {hopefully} get success here with no pressure repetition and up the difficulty level gradually. This is an area where I abandon the no repeat standard to promote comfort and success. As to the reward, that is simple it is the ultimate reward of the bird; coupled with sometimes effusive praise


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> I would NOT ever attemp to use an ecollar to "pressure your dog into compliance" in these [complex] situations. The collar IMHO would be counter productive and serve to make your dog nervous and give him the "Escalon Shuffles" IMHO the dog needs to be relaxed and confident on these. You {hopefully} get success here with no pressure repetition and up the difficulty level gradually. This is an area where I abandon the no repeat standard to promote comfort and success. As to the reward, that is simple it is the ultimate reward of the bird; coupled with sometimes effusive praise


100% correct - the "pressure" is already internalized by the dog for learning those concepts without any outside elements - and if repetition (and not the e-collar) can be used to relieve that pressure, fine & dandy.



Pete said:


> In the training world individuals in each discipline thinks the're discipline is the most difficult to master,,, t*he retriever world is often the most closed minded about how to train a dog,, not quite sure why that is.* But it still WAY behind in puppy development,, which I am seeing as one of the most crucial periods in the dogs life in which a trainer should capitalize on.


You really think that, Pete? As opposed to other gundog or pointer disciplines that are shall we say hidebound with their notions of "force breaking" and not even having a dog retrieve what's been shot over it? Hmm, those close-minded retriever trainers...

And WAY behind in puppy development? - maybe you're talking about the pros who don't get a puppy until six months old? Or would it be some of us amateurs - yeah, who train our own dogs - and who wait 'til the pups are 8 weeks old in exposing them to birds 










instead of seven, thus putting us behind in "development?"

Then again, would seem Mr. Hillman - and Ms. Mertens and Ms. Loveland - got that covered too. So what exactly is "WAY behind in puppy development" that the retriever world stands accused of?

MG


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

I enjoy watch Ellis in his videos because he is an excellent speaker. It will be interesting to see how he does with his retriever video but obviously as a smart man it comes down to him being able to make more money by reaching out to a bigger (new) crowd. I am not saying he won't do well, I think he knows dogs very well and as someone mentioned earlier, once he gets over the learning curve of that new dog game I'm sure he could excel. Releasing a DVD though I don't think classifies that as excelling. I would like to see him raise the pups up and campaign them, so we could really see how his spin on retriever training translates into real, tangible results. Thats just me though


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Cass, remind me again - in developing your _*spaniel*_ pup, where and from whom up close and personal did you and the cocker get most of your D&E (development and encouragement) from? - and then there was the guy who threw in the Retriev-R trainer to boot, right?

I agree, Ellis is a great communicator, could listen to (and watch) him for days on end. Looking forward to how he fares in communicating with retrievers - pretty sure he will succeed.

MG


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Hahahaha, yes MG I am a big supporter of retriever trainers, even though I don't have a retriever (don't tell the dog that). Speaking of launchers - I took it out on the lake (not water work, the lake is solid right now, almost 20 inches of ice on it still LOL) the other day to try it out and it works like a charm. Thanks again!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

gdgnyc said:


> copterdoc
> 
> Post #1 says "...please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse (sic) methods."
> 
> I think that she is advocating motivational training during the "teaching" portion of a dog's training. Aversives come later. (Teach, force, reinforce.)


This is the way I read her post. The lady was just looking for other ways to train that were less at first. If there is and Ellis can produce, then let us hear it out. IMO


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

gdgnyc said:


> What should I look for? I'm on the website now.


I have an older set of three but it looks like there is a more recent set of two 

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=965

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=1003


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

> In the training world individuals in each discipline thinks the're discipline is the most difficult to master,,, the retriever world is often the most closed minded about how to train a dog,, not quite sure why tht is. But it still WAY behind in puppy development,, which I am seeing as one of the most crucial periods in the dogs life in which a trainer should capitalize on.


 This is very important to overcome:*close-mindedness*. There are many ways to train a retriever. Just look at Hillman's DVD how popular it has become. Who would have thought some would follow this program and all for the better. And how great is it that we now train the pup right away rather than wait like it mentions in James Lamb Free's book. "It is safe to start a few simple retrieves at 8 or 9 months!!!""but save your own time by waiting until he is full 12 months old." How far have we come! As I said in my other post let us hear others out. You just never know!IMO


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> This is the way I read her post. The lady was just looking for other ways to train that were less at first. If there is and Ellis can produce, then let us hear it out. IMO


I think the part getting missed and the reason I said she knows little about a "retriever trainer" is that we pretty much ALL use motivational techniques in the teaching phase. Teach, force, re-enforce is probably one of the top 2 adages known within the sport.

There's nothing revolutionary about Ellis. He's never won a world championship, even in his chosen discipline. Everything I've ever heard him say is fairly well accepted theory. 

He's just an exceptional communicator, which makes him very easy to watch and understand. I think he will make an excellent DVD. Whether or not it ever catches on in a mainstream way remains to be seen due to his lack of experience / notoriety in the retriever sports.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

Enzos Mom said:


> No doubt. Everyone can choose to use the tools in the manner that works for them. There is more than one way to skin a cat.


This is absolutely untrue! There is ONLY 1 WAY. That is the way that it is done here and everyone who is anyone does it. Do not come here spouting ideas unless you have personally titled multiple dogs in FT. You will either adhere to this by breaking you down with verbal personal attacks or you will just leave the boards.

On another note - We need to increase our membership in the FT, HT clubs. How can we get more people to join. 

My suggestion - Don't pull the pin!


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> This is very important to overcome:*close-mindedness*. There are many ways to train a retriever. Just look at Hillman's DVD how popular it has become. Who would have thought some would follow this program and all for the better. And how great is it that we now train the pup right away rather than wait like it mentions in James Lamb Free's book. "It is safe to start a few simple retrieves at 8 or 9 months!!!""but save your own time by waiting until he is full 12 months old." How far have we come! As I said in my other post let us hear others out. You just never know!IMO


You Fool! read post above. 1 WAY. 1 WAY ONLY!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

totaly off topic but this jiggered a memory. did Fred from sit means sit ever go far with the dog he was running in hunt tests a few years back?


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

gdluck said:


> This is absolutely untrue! There is ONLY 1 WAY. That is the way that it is done here and everyone who is anyone does it. Do not come here spouting ideas unless you have personally titled multiple dogs in FT. You will either adhere to this by breaking you down with verbal personal attacks or you will just leave the boards.
> 
> On another note - We need to increase our membership in the FT, HT clubs. How can we get more people to join.
> 
> My suggestion - Don't pull the pin!


this is ridiculous and you know it. The funny thing is that it is a two way street. So many "nicey nice" trainers come here spouting off about how abusive current training methods are and how they can get a dog to do anything with tennis shoes and a clicker. As the conversation progresses we always figure out that they really don't know that much about how most successful training is done but have some big preconceived ideas about it. I disagree somewhat with Pete, I think most trainers are very open minded and would do about anything to be more successful. The truth though is that time and time again the conversations just basically boils down to " show me". Talk is cheap as hell and until someone can consistently be successful in the retriever games using other techniques most will stick with what works. Look at Hillmans work with young pups as an example to how success brings change. As far as ME, we'll see what he brings to the table of the retriever world but don't be surprised when it is all said and done that what you see isn't far from stuff already being done.


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

I have used Micheal Ellis Dvd's sense they came out. I have found that starting with his techinics and the using Hillman's retriever methods makes for a great traing system. I hope and will buy the new DVD.
Tony Williams


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

People are watching Hillman's stuff, but how many of the "old guard" have actually embraced it? Anyone besides Dennis Voigt?

I see people on here all the time claiming that they are using and following Hillman, starting with his puppy training DVD, but few actually seem to go the whole 9 yards. When it comes time to force fetch, they switch to something else.

Then another huge faction is doing traffic cop in addition to, not instead of, what they were doing before. 

I see the new people, the blank slates such as myself, looking at what else is out there but the Old Guard is doing the same old same I think.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

copterdoc said:


> Read it again.
> 
> I do believe that she is incorrectly praising him for NOT using two of the quadrants, and simultaneously (and also incorrectly) accusing Traditional Retriever Trainers of ONLY using those same two quadrants that she doesn't like.


"Incorrectly praising for not using two of the quads" ... first of all there are plenty of positive only trainers that have accomplished quite a bit in dog sports. So I don't see how that is 'incorrect'. In fact, anyone willing to train with only positives and be successful gets praise in my book. I do not have the patience for positive only training. 

I never accused anyone of using the "two quadrants I don't like" ... I mean, really, who likes to use force on a dog!?! When you tell your child to clean their room and they don't do you go ahead and 'force' them to?? That is simply silly. I would rather deplete all my positive resources before having to use force. Advanced training, whether retriever, agility, protection most all will require force to be successful to attain ribbons. I know this, I never stated anything less than that.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Enzos Mom said:


> "Incorrectly praising for not using two of the quads" ... first of all there are plenty of positive only trainers that have accomplished quite a bit in dog sports. So I don't see how that is 'incorrect'. In fact, anyone willing to train with only positives and be successful gets praise in my book. I do not have the patience for positive only training.
> 
> I never accused anyone of using the "two quadrants I don't like" ... I mean, really, who likes to use force on a dog!?! When you tell your child to clean their room and they don't do you go ahead and 'force' them to?? That is simply silly. * I would rather deplete all my positive resources before having to use force.* Advanced training, whether retriever, agility, protection most all will require force to be successful to attain ribbons. I know this, I never stated anything less than that.


Still, you're digging - excavating, without recourse for ex_*tric*_ating - yourself deeper and deeper.

MG


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

crackerd said:


> By your use of "'teaching' concepts," 'fraid your naivete's showing. Unless your idea of a "concept" is a single marked retrieve. Do you know how "not to pressure our dog into compliance" with a middle indent retired triple, or an in-line triple with middle gun retired? Or a hip-pocket thrown into the flier station? What's your "motivational reward" for any of those? Or how would you use (or not) the e-collar in trying to master those concepts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please reread my original post...it says basic FUNDAMENTALS. 

Second, if you believe there is no possible fall out from ecollar training (whether done correctly or incorrectly) than your exposure is minimal. Even if it's done correctly on the wrong dog, it could wreck that dog to further training.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> Reading your posts, you're either advocating something that really doesn't need an advocate, or you don't understand how a retriever trainer really trains.


You got all of that about me from that 3 line post I made?? You must be a mind reader.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Enzos Mom said:


> Second, if you believe there is no possible fall out from ecollar training (whether done correctly or incorrectly) than your exposure is minimal. Even if it's done correctly on the wrong dog, it could wreck that dog to further training.


Deeper...that "crater's" almost head-high by now.

MG


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

gdgnyc said:


> copterdoc
> 
> Post #1 says "...please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse (sic) methods."
> 
> I think that she is advocating motivational training during the "teaching" portion of a dog's training. Aversives come later. (Teach, force, reinforce.)


Exactly. Thank you for reading what I wrote as it was written.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> totaly off topic but this jiggered a memory. did Fred from sit means sit ever go far with the dog he was running in hunt tests a few years back?


A quick search of Entry Express says he's on his third dog now and is still struggling to get SH passes. It appears the first two dogs didn't title and have quit.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Enzos Mom said:


> .........In fact, anyone willing to train with only positives and be successful gets praise in my book.





Enzos Mom said:


> I never accused anyone of using the "two quadrants I don't like" ... I mean, really, who likes to use force on a dog!?! When you tell your child to clean their room and they don't do you go ahead and 'force' them to?? That is simply silly. I would rather deplete all my positive resources before having to use force.......




There are four quadrants in play with every dog, all the time.
No matter what your personal feelings are about it, it is impossible to train a dog without using all four.

Trying to change that, because of some weird belief in the possibility of a perfect world where pain and discomfort doesn't exist, and therefore won't influence the dog's behaviour, is as insane as trying to convert a cat into a vegan.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

I agree. I wish people wouldn't be so quick to judge.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

Cass said:


> I enjoy watch Ellis in his videos because he is an excellent speaker. It will be interesting to see how he does with his retriever video but obviously as a smart man it comes down to him being able to make more money by reaching out to a bigger (new) crowd. I am not saying he won't do well, I think he knows dogs very well and as someone mentioned earlier, once he gets over the learning curve of that new dog game I'm sure he could excel. Releasing a DVD though I don't think classifies that as excelling. I would like to see him raise the pups up and campaign them, so we could really see how his spin on retriever training translates into real, tangible results. Thats just me though


I wish he would to. But unfortunately his sport of choice is protection and considering he barely has time to compete in his own sport I doubt he'll campaign the two retrievers he currently is raising. Although someone will get a nice pup with great foundation skills.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> A quick search of Entry Express says he's on his third dog now and is still struggling to get SH passes. It appears the first two dogs didn't title and have quit.


But...but, the Koehler folks think highly of him, whether it's for retriever titles trained up to, down to or the "Sit Means Sit" decals on his shiny Humvee that he arrived in for hunt tests...

MG


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

crackerd said:


> Still, you're digging - excavating, without recourse for ex_*tric*_ating - yourself deeper and deeper.
> 
> MG


How am I digging myself deeper? Because I would rather teach a concept thru motivation rather than pressure?


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

copterdoc said:


> There are four quadrants in play with every dog, all the time.
> No matter what your personal feelings are about it, it is impossible to train a dog without using all four.
> 
> Trying to change that, because of some weird belief in the possibility of a perfect world where pain and discomfort doesn't exist, and therefore won't influence the dog's behaviour, is as insane as trying to convert a cat into a vegan.


I totally agree. I don't know where you read I don't.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> totaly off topic but this jiggered a memory. did Fred from sit means sit ever go far with the dog he was running in hunt tests a few years back?


He's moved on to a malinois (and looks like he might be doing bite work??) from what I've seen of his latest postings. But then again I'm not a fan so I do not read thoroughly. It may or may not be his malinois.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Enzos Mom said:


> How am I digging myself deeper? Because I would rather teach a concept thru motivation rather than pressure?


Because you accuse retriever trainers of not doing so when it is what every successful trainer does. We all teach without pressure. Arguing otherwise shows a basic misunderstanding retriever training.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> Because you accuse retriever trainers of not doing so when it is what every successful trainer does. We all teach without pressure. Arguing otherwise shows a basic misunderstanding retriever training.


Thanks, DH - I was really, really getting apprehensive that the poster's nom de plume indicated yet another misguided spinone owner...gotta think we're succeeding at getting more of them educated these days about retriever training.

MG


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## Gatzby (Dec 16, 2010)

Enzos Mom said:


> "Incorrectly praising for not using two of the quads" ... first of all there are plenty of positive only trainers that have accomplished quite a bit in dog sports. So I don't see how that is 'incorrect'. In fact, anyone willing to train with only positives and be successful gets praise in my book. I do not have the patience for positive only training.
> 
> I never accused anyone of using the "two quadrants I don't like" ... I mean, really, who likes to use force on a dog!?! When you tell your child to clean their room and they don't do you go ahead and 'force' them to?? That is simply silly. I would rather deplete all my positive resources before having to use force. Advanced training, whether retriever, agility, protection most all will require force to be successful to attain ribbons. I know this, I never stated anything less than that.



If I told my children to clean their room and they didn't???? First I would ascertain why they didn't than I would use the proper response. If they didn't understand the request I would simplify and build till I received the proper response. If they understood but chose not to out of laziness, stubbornness, or as a challenge to authority I would certainly apply force. Dang this sounds like dog training. 
Steve


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

DoubleHaul said:


> Because you accuse retriever trainers of not doing so when it is what every successful trainer does. We all teach without pressure. Arguing otherwise shows a basic misunderstanding retriever training.


Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training? 

And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Enzos Mom said:


> Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training?
> 
> And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.


Say what? You're anthropmophising(sp?) dogs. They're dogs; and they're smart, but not that smart. I garuntee you if I put a duck at the end of that wind tunnel my dog would run to the end of it.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Geez people, lighten up.

The OP shared some info she liked. 

Like it or don't but why get yer undies in a bunch about it?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Enzos Mom said:


> And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.


Only if they knew the value of a $100 bill?....
I once heard the 'Undisputed' handlers of working dogs say " If you put a £20 note in a Hawthorn hedge,then ask a child of 2 to put their hand in,they would refuse on first attempt, but ask a child of 10 who knows the value of a £20 note,they will 'bare the scars' "  *Ian Openshaw ,over 100 ftch's *.
I got that as 'The push never came from the shove' ?..Perhaps the 'Training' process that is perceived '_here'_ is lacking ?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Enzos Mom said:


> Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training?





> When "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar.


"Some of us" implys that the rest of us do use the collar when 'teaching' concepts. This attitude is pretty constant throughout as are vague statements about 'fallout' from even the proper use of the ecollar




Enzos Mom said:


> And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.


If you are suggesting that FF is how one 'teaches' a retriever to fetch, again, you do not understand the concept well.


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## ehf (May 13, 2010)

Got on this a little late but it sounds to Me like Michael Ellis is trying to take the same route
as Fred Hassen. Switching from Maligators to labs. As he is a breeder and trainer of Malinois
However I have Yet to ever see him prove himself. Meaning show a dog in a trial and let's
look at some scores.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

ehf said:


> Got on this a little late but it sounds to Me like Michael Ellis is trying to take the same route
> as Fred Hassen. Switching from Maligators to labs. As he is a breeder and trainer of Malinois
> However I have Yet to ever see him prove himself. Meaning show a dog in a trial and let's
> look at some scores.


Come on now,
Everyone knows results and winning do not make a good trainer!
Cool logo gear and awesome marketing make a good trainer!

I apologize, back on topic


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

DoubleHaul said:


> "Some of us" implys that the rest of us do use the collar when 'teaching' concepts. This attitude is pretty constant throughout as are vague statements about 'fallout' from even the proper use of the ecollar


Sorry, "some of us" meant me and some others, nothing more nothing less. No implication on my part. I think your feathers got ruffled because you feel accused. I'm not accusing anyone. We all train differently and I'm ok with that. 




DoubleHaul said:


> If you are suggesting that FF is how one 'teaches' a retriever to fetch, again, you do not understand the concept well.


Another misread/understanding on your part. I would hope most don't teach fetch (initially) thru pressure. Re-enforcing the fetch thru pressure is where we differ. I believe if foundation training is solid than FF in the traditional sense is not _*necessarily*_ required (all dogs not being equal).


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Enzos Mom said:


> Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training?
> 
> And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.


 I'm trying to follow you, but I feel a little lost. If you don't subscribe to the idea of FF during training, then how do you teach your retriever that he must always fetch when and where you tell him? Do you require that level of obedience in your dogs, or do you just let it go if your dog refuses a retrieve, for whatever reason?

I guess I don't quite understand your point of view , because I thought you said back in the thread that you weren't opposed to using pressure, but you imply here, that you oppose FF....


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

ehf said:


> Got on this a little late but it sounds to Me like Michael Ellis is trying to take the same route
> as Fred Hassen. Switching from Maligators to labs. As he is a breeder and trainer of Malinois
> However I have Yet to ever see him prove himself. Meaning show a dog in a trial and let's
> look at some scores.


Michael is not switching to labs. As for titles and scores, if you see his training assistance's achievements you might change your opinion.
If 'proving' oneself is only measured by your dogs score, well then...I think we're all in trouble.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Enzos Mom said:


> Another misread/understanding on your part. I would hope most don't teach fetch (initially) thru pressure. Re-enforcing the fetch thru pressure is where we differ. I believe if foundation training is solid than FF in the traditional sense is _*necessarily*_ required (all dogs not being equal).


 From what I've read on this forum, most everyone is very knowledgeable and love their dogs immensely. I haven't heard of anybody here who would apply more pressure or force to a dog that didn't need it. 

That being said, everyone would like to own a dog who never needed pressure to obey all commands, but I'd guess that a dog that is naturally like that, is one in a million.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

ChessieMom said:


> I'm trying to follow you, but I feel a little lost. If you don't subscribe to the idea of FF during training, then how do you teach your retriever that he must always fetch when and where you tell him? Do you require that level of obedience in your dogs, or do you just let it go if your dog refuses a retrieve, for whatever reason?
> 
> I guess I don't quite understand your point of view , because I thought you said back in the thread that you weren't opposed to using pressure, but you imply here, that you oppose FF....


I'm not an advocate of FF in the traditional sense if there are other ways to accomplish the desired result (always pick up on the retrieve) and if the dog is highly motivated for the retrieve. I believe there has to be a better way to re-enforce the retrieve. I didn't say there *is*, but if anyone can come up with the concept I believe Michael Ellis can. 

And yes, there is a level of obedience that I require. My dog pretty much fetch's anything I ask. I trained him to do that. I didn't do it thru pressure but thru rewards (not just food either).


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Enzos Mom said:


> I'm not an advocate of FF in the traditional sense if there are other ways to accomplish the desired result (always pick up on the retrieve) and if the dog is highly motivated for the retrieve. I believe there has to be a better way to re-enforce the retrieve. I didn't say there *is*, but if anyone can come up with the concept I believe Michael Ellis can.
> 
> And yes, there is a level of obedience that I require. My dog pretty much fetch's anything I ask. I trained him to do that. I didn't do it thru pressure but thru rewards (not just food either).


I'm pretty much out on the rest of this conversation but just can't let this go. The fact that you think that "(always pick up on the retrieve)" is the "desired result" of FF shows blatantly how little you know and understand about current retriever training practices. FF is a rung of the ladder, a very low one, that would make getting to the top of the ladder very tough if it were removed. I'm positive I could get most dogs to retrieve using cookies but that is NOT my desired result. What I want is a dog that can handle a long crosswind water blind with an angle entry and two points to cross in route and a cookie ain't gonna get us there.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Enzos Mom said:


> You got all of that about me from that 3 line post I made?? You must be a mind reader.


you're not the first person to come here with the exact same position


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

achiro said:


> I'm pretty much out on the rest of this conversation but just can't let this go. The fact that you think that "(always pick up on the retrieve)" is the "desired result" of FF shows blatantly how little you know and understand about current retriever training practices.


Yeah, that hole dug for and exclusively by the OP would now seem to be a foxhole about the size of the Homestake Mine in Lead - and further on to that analogy, her naivete nuggets are just about all mined out. Suffice to say the consensus here is that Michael Ellis is a talented trainer and communicator, but it's gone bust (as always) for somebody to tout his upcoming training DVD and tell why as it relates to their own retrograde training notions and "fetch" experience.

MG


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

crackerd said:


> But...but, the Koehler folks think highly of him, whether it's for retriever titles trained up to, down to or the "Sit Means Sit" decals on his shiny Humvee that he arrived in for hunt tests...
> 
> MG


80 franchises nationwide. He might not be doing so well with a retriever but he's doing SOMETHING right.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> 80 franchises nationwide. He might not be doing so well with a retriever but he's doing SOMETHING right.


Do I infer that you're in there bidding for No. 81, Darrin?

MG


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I should note Hassen and Ellis are COMPLETELY different training styles. Hassen focuses primarily on the e-collar while Ellis is a much more balanced approach. Ellis is very consistent to the methods used by retriever folks. There's no big miracle here but I have used Ellis's communication approach with my latest dog and she responds extremely well to it.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

There always seems to be a svengali type coming up the pike that markets to animal fancier peeps , that has a way to train easier , faster, and with less or no force. When they consistently win American Field Trials,they will gain the attention of the players of the game.Until then, well, its entertaining to see what they are selling.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Jay Dufour said:


> There always seems to be a svengali type coming up the pike that markets to animal fancier peeps , that has a way to train easier , faster, and with less or no force. When they consistently win American Field Trials,they will gain the attention of the players of the game.Until then, well, its entertaining to see what they are selling.


I agree.

That being said I enjoy learning, watching, listening. 
You don't have to like every trainer and every method. Just because you watch someone or something doesn't mean you must become it. Sometimes I learn just as much 'why that won't work for me' as I do 'that will work for me'.

This thread got waayyy off topic. If you don't like his methods or his ideas no one is forcing you to buy into them.
It's very simple, just don't buy his new DVD. It's not that tough.

The OP was simply bringing this up for those who wish to look into other ideas, or those who already like his stuff, or those looking into other, different, trainers. I don't see any harm in that.

And I don't see how her opinion on 2 or 4 quadrant training, her opinion on FF, or pressure vs praise has anything to do with the original topic lmao


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> A quick search of Entry Express says he's on his third dog now and is still struggling to get SH passes. It appears the first two dogs didn't title and have quit.


He started retriever experimentation with the little lab that Unca Jerry Harris gave him in the late 90s.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

achiro said:


> I'm pretty much out on the rest of this conversation but just can't let this go. The fact that you think that "(always pick up on the retrieve)" is the "desired result" of FF shows blatantly how little you know and understand about current retriever training practices. FF is a rung of the ladder, a very low one, that would make getting to the top of the ladder very tough if it were removed. I'm positive I could get most dogs to retrieve using cookies but that is NOT my desired result. What I want is a dog that can handle a long crosswind water blind with an angle entry and two points to cross in route and a cookie ain't gonna get us there.


Believe it or not there are some very successful FT people that do not teach FF this way---the break them down, build them back up method. At least that is what I think you are talking about (apologies in advance if I misunderstand).

The only reason I chimed in on this thread is that people were talking about open mindedness. More than one way to skin a cat.

The Hillman stuff teaches fetch, then reinforce, with the ecollar, for example. None of the battle of wills stuff that I presume you are talking about with the ladder analogy. Although the ladder is a great analogy of how the steps of basics proceed.

I have one 3 year old lab that I trained this way, my first dog, me no expert. While I'm not a poster child for success (though I'm not a disaster either), I'm pretty sure there are some FCs out there that have been trained using this technique.

I add this in the interest of discussion.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Gatzby said:


> If I told my children to clean their room and they didn't???? First I would ascertain why they didn't than I would use the proper response. If they didn't understand the request I would simplify and build till I received the proper response. If they understood but chose not to out of laziness, stubbornness, or as a challenge to authority I would certainly apply force. Dang this sounds like dog training.
> Steve


 The kids are supposed to have more brains than dogs. Don't simplify just tell them to do it!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

gdluck said:


> You Fool! read post above. 1 WAY. 1 WAY ONLY!


What side did you get out of bed today!! I am not sure I agree with you!!!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> You really think that, Pete? As opposed to other gundog or pointer disciplines that are shall we say hidebound with their notions of "force breaking" and not even having a dog retrieve what's been shot over it? Hmm, those close-minded retriever trainers...
> 
> And WAY behind in puppy development? - maybe you're talking about the pros who don't get a puppy until six months old? Or would it be some of us amateurs - yeah, who train our own dogs - and who wait 'til the pups are 8 weeks old in exposing them to birds



Let me clarify Mike
the retriever world are all people who train retrievers. Out of all those people few develop a young dogs focus and ability to figure out how to get what they desire
I'm not talking about throwing birds for pups or teaching them to sit or return to heel or whatever. I think most people do it this way. However most do not teach a dog how to focus singularly let alone duel or triple focus. They do not teach the dog how to think and how to get what they desire.
My case and point.
I have been around hunt tests for well over 25 years and I can count on 1 hand the dogs at the JR. that could focus and perform the desired behaviors properly by 6 -9 months . I count myself in this category up until 5 or 6 years ago. Pro's that get dogs at 6 or 7 months have missed the window of opportunity. They have to do things the way they do them because of economics of the client. A large portion of their clientele have not done the best that can be done with a pup until they send their dog off. I don't care how great that dog becomes,,it would be greater if it had a puppy development program. Simply teaching a dog a few commands and throwing birds for it doesn't compare to what I'm talking about.
I am talking about development . It is totally different . 

Pat Nolan ,,would be a good example of puppy development,,there are others,,just off the top of my head
Pip Pip O chap
I always wanted to say that HAAA!
Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

crackerd said:


> Do I infer that you're in there bidding for No. 81, Darrin?
> 
> MG


I wouldn't take that way from my post, no.

However, if a franchise appealed to me, I would certainly consider it.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Speaking of Fred
Do people remember that 6 month old detection dog (I can't remember the exact age) maintaining focus on the job or it could have been the handler (don't remember that either) while other dogs were running around it.
That's probably a by product of development.
In our world it may be ,a 7 month old dog that hears a gun go off and its first response is to sit even though it was not trained directly to do that,,,or it comes bouncing back to the heel position even though it was not trained directly to do that. All it knows is how to get what it wants, which is the bird. Same concept.
When I let the dogs out to air in the field those trained to go to a mat ,run there sit on itor around it and stare at me intensely as if they are expecting me to do something,,,,, the others are just enjoying their freedom and ignoring me.
Thatss a developed response triggered by a stimulus in the environment.

Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

One thing Ellis will bring to the party, if his DVD is used by people is a focus on... well... focus. He calls it engagement, and states that until he has strong engagement from a puppy, there's no moving onto more complex training. 

In pet dog world I have found the lack of engagement to be the main problem people have with their dogs in public, or even in the back yard. When the dog is not engaged with the owner he will not perform commands he already knows. I hear this daily. 

On big challenge I think we have with our retrievers is to actually balance the dog's engagement with his independent thinking ability and to teach him to make the correct decisions when he is disengaged. We also need to be able to reliably demand the dog's attention in a situation where it gets in trouble on a mark and needs to be handled. 

I think a lot of people, especially good trainers, end up being able to do this as a bi-product of solid basics. I don't know a lot of trainers (pets, retrievers or otherwise) that really focus on the issue.

Turning this engagement on and off isn't necessarily easy with a high drive dog, as we all know.

[video]http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/701/Lindsey_Sommer_and_her_Puppy,_Basa/[/video]


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great discussion, Pete. I always appreciate your input. Always thought provoking.


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## jaymay75 (Nov 11, 2016)

Does anyone know if this DVD was released?


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