# Rex Carr and the Escalon Shuffle?



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

There's a revived thread about a book in progress re-Rex Carr and his training methods. Mentioned several times in posts were his dogs known for "the Escalon Shuffle".

Will someone explain or describe just what is meant by the term dogs known for the "Escalon Shuffle"? 

Helen


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

when a dog goes out and has a poor hunt like he doesnt know where to sh!t or go blind because he thinks he is about to get his ass burned off! kinda of just slinking around.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

kip said:


> when a dog goes out and has a poor hunt like he doesnt know where to sh!t or go blind because he thinks he is about to get his ass burned off! kinda of just slinking around.


That about sums it up in a nutshell,


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Where did the word Escalon come from?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Leddyman said:


> Where did the word Escalon come from?


Escalon is a location in the San Joaquin Valley of California, as in NFC San Joaquin Honcho


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> Escalon is a location in the San Joaquin Valley of California, as in NFC San Joaquin Honcho


Thanks,
Geomograffillogically challenged regards,


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Where is the CL-2 pond located? So ican find it on Google Earth, directions from town would be helpful.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Richard Halstead said:


> Where is the CL-2 pond located? So ican find it on Google Earth, directions from town would be helpful.


It's in Oakdale, about 3/4 of a mile down the road from Woodward Reservoir.

It is no longer CL-2. It's now called "Billy's Place." And boy has he earned the right to have his name on it. That story is a novel in itself.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Leddyman said:


> Where did the word Escalon come from?


A bit north of Modesto, Escalon is the small town where Rex's home and kennel (Carr Lab Kennels) were located. The so-called "Escalon shuffle" was a nickname for the slow nervous gait a number of collar dogs from decades ago had. We didn't always have varialbe e-collars. Remember?

Evan


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Evan said:


> A bit north of Modesto, Escalon is the small town where Rex's home and kennel (Carr Lab Kennels) were located. The so-called "Escalon shuffle" was a nickname for the slow nervous gait a number of collar dogs from decades ago had. We didn't always have varialbe e-collars. Remember?
> 
> Evan


Didn't someone already answer this question?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Didn't someone already answer this question?


I'm waiting for the CD to come out demonstrating the Escalon shuffle....

/Paul


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm waiting for the CD to come out demonstrating the shuffle....
> 
> /Paul


Just realized it's easier to repeat what someone else said but with a slight twist in the wording.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Just realized it's easier to repeat what someone else said but with a slight twist in the wording.


Melanie, Its much simplier to repeat what someone else said but with a slight difference in the wording.

/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

No one said what road Billy's place is on. I haven't found it on google earth.

Watchew guys sayin'?


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Anybody remember American Bandstand and watching "the Stroll"?

The term "Escalon Shuffle" brought an image to my mind of "the Stroll with a nervous head turn and backward glance. Sounds now like I had it about right.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Richard Halstead said:


> Where is the CL-2 pond located? So ican find it on Google Earth, directions from town would be helpful.


I've never been there, but found this nice little piece of water about 1/4 mile NNW of the reservoir that Melanie mentioned:










Mark


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

helencalif said:


> Anybody remember American Bandstand and watching "the Stroll"?
> 
> The term "Escalon Shuffle" brought an image to my mind of "the Stroll with a nervous head turn and backward glance. Sounds now like I had it about right.


 
Sorry I wasn't born until 1969

/Paul


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

2-Dogs said:


> I've never been there, but found this nice little piece of water about 1/4 mile NNW of the reservoir that Melanie mentioned:
> 
> Mark


Holy cow. Norcal people, am I missing something? That can't be Gulvins' place because they're down by Modesto which is SouthEast.

Mark, where is the contact number for the owners of this place? 

For those of you doing a Google search on Billy's Place, try looking for 26 Mile Road, Oakdale, CA. 

Sorry, I don't have the physical address. Checks go to the PO Box. ;-)


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

You missed American Bandstand? I lived it. 

For pre-teen and teen kids on the west coast, Dick Clark and American Bandstand was a must. You rushed home from school and sat glued to the TV until it came on. You didn't miss a minute of it. It set trends across the country -- what's new in hair styles, what to wear, what the new dance craze was. How high are the hemlines? Are the buckles in the back of the oxfords buckled or unbuckled? Are white suede shoes and thin pink belts still in? 

Frankie Avalon, Fabian, Paul Anka, Dion and the Belmonts, Mickey and Sylvia... what can I say... sorry you missed it.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> It's in Oakdale, about 3/4 of a mile down the road from Woodward Reservoir.
> 
> It is no longer CL-2. It's now called "Billy's Place." And boy has he earned the right to have his name on it. That story is a novel in itself.


Is down the road north or south. To me down is headed toward China which is way down from California.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Wow that is some body of water. You know you are way gone when you see something like that and start salivating. My husband is going to flip, I'm calling the dozer this fall and adding two more penisula's and a long skinny slice of water dug out along the edge of the wetland. 
Pond lust regards.....


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Melanie;

Looks like this place is your's for the taking... I looked it up on another map service. Notice that the buildings are now gone!!







For the record, this place's coordinates are: 37.872 / -120.935

Never say you guys have it rough in Norcal, I also found this water nearer Escalon, still not CL-2 (aka Billy's Place) judging from the pics I've seen before. (Coordinates are on the pic). 










I went up one end of 26 Mile Road to the other. From Oakdale to E. Sonora Road and never found CL-2. Either Billy's Place is very small or they were out of water when the satellite passed over!

Mark


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

my favorite is Gulvins. try google earth Lat 37°39'51.42"N Long 120°52'7.28"W

for a wonderful eyeful

Billy's Place Lat 37°49'37.14"N long 120°51'7.95"W


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

2-Dogs said:


> Melanie;
> 
> Looks like this place is your's for the taking... I looked it up on another map service. Notice that the buildings are now gone!!
> 
> ...


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

On 28 mile Road 1/4 mile south of Dorsey Road and about 1 mile south of Woodward.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

The picture posted is not Billy Place


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

kip said:


> when a dog goes out and has a poor hunt like he doesnt know where to sh!t or go blind because he thinks he is about to get his ass burned off! kinda of just slinking around.


this what the collar haters used to refer to as a "Pigador"?


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Mike, looks like you and I need to go arm in arm with big smiles and find out who those property owners are...


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Melanie Foster said:


> Didn't someone already answer this question?


Why the venom Melanie? Do you know how often someone asks a question on here and gets the same answer (more or less) from multiple people. When I see multiple people giving the same answer, and none dissenting, it gives me more confidence that the answer is correct. Also, Evan's answer was a lot more descriptive and less profane than the original answer. WTH?


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> Mike, looks like you and I need to go arm in arm with big smiles and find out who those property owners are...


Hey I just called Billy and described where those ponds were and he said those are Tommy Williams old place. I don't know how old that photo is he said the new owner had changed some stuff and kinda wrecked it. So who knows what exists today.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

HuntinDawg said:


> Why the venom Melanie?


That's venom? Good luck to you boys. ;-)

ps Mike, is Jump shuffling yet?


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> That's venom? Good luck to you boys. ;-)
> 
> ps Mike, is Jump shuffling yet?


She's the one fluffy I really like, acts like a lab!!!!


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Fire N Ice said:


> She's the one fluffy I really like, acts like a lab!!!!


Hey Mike! 

Now, does this mean you have a golden? Or is Jump Melanie's? 

........

And on the note regarding the first explanation of Escalon Shuffle...that's not the whole enchilada. It meant poor style and this could happen on a blind while a hunt on a bird might be just marvelous with no shuffle regards. And yes, that was in the days of very hot collars.


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## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Vickie Lamb said:


> Hey Mike!
> 
> Now, does this mean you have a golden? Or is Jump Melanie's?
> 
> ...


Nah, no goldens here. Jump is Mel's. I like her, put together real nice.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Hmmm, wondering if anyone who so confidently described it was ever at CL-2. My first visit was in 1978, I only witnessed it in a couple of dogs who weren't very good.

The first variable intensity collars became available in the mid 80s, the first variable time ones in the late 80s. 

I wonder how many successful field trial pros in the last 20 years were not influenced by Rex's methods even though they never spent time with him. What he did for retriever training was revolutionary, no other person has so influenced dog training.


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

And I will add that no one loved a stylish dog more than Rex. 

Rex was very instrumental in the development of variable intensity to improve e-collars to improve the way they could be used for dog training. And that was happening during one of the times I was there... 

There is a lot to this that folks don't stop to think about. Like, for example, clients of dogs that would come for a few days to train, and then go home with their dogs and then be very tough on their dogs with the collar...way tougher than Rex had ever been. 

This was something that really bothered and concerned and haunted Rex. He always said no one could come for a few days or a week or a few weeks and learn his dog training methods. This was one of the reasons why -- people not understanding how to use the e-collar -- and he also very strongly felt that it was fundamentally impossible to see the different ways he reacted to certain problems and/or how any/each dog's training progressed and developed over a period of time based on something that might occur during a week. If he had to really dig into something on one day or a few days with a dog...that may be absolutely no reflection on what then transpired over the next several weeks or months. 

Rex continued to evolve his training methods throughout his career to enhance the whole picture, constantly aware of things that needed improvement, constantly working on those things. He was never satisfied with any place and method in time...he was always striving to be better and do better in his training and in his teaching. 

And with all due respect, Rex loved the dogs. And he gave his utmost to people that wanted to learn his method.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Thank you, Vickie, for that excellent post.

Evan


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> ps Mike, is Jump shuffling yet?


Hey Melanie, are you coming up to Montana this summer? I've been training over at Eric's but I drop by to see Carol, Ann and Frannie from time to time and am training with Rob this weekend while Eric is down in Utah.

John


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> Hey Melanie, are you coming up to Montana this summer? I've been training over at Eric's but I drop by to see Carol, Ann and Frannie from time to time and am training with Rob this weekend while Eric is down in Utah.
> 
> John


We'll be there in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to seeing you all!


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## Josh Conrad (Jul 3, 2005)

Here is a pic of Billy's Place (old CL2)

Notice the second pic, there is a training group down in the corner, can't pic out the vehicles. The pic is atleast 2yrs old, Billy's house is not pictured.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> Hmmm, wondering if anyone who so confidently described it was ever at CL-2. My first visit was in 1978, I only witnessed it in a couple of dogs who weren't very good.
> 
> The first variable intensity collars became available in the mid 80s, the first variable time ones in the late 80s.
> 
> I wonder how many successful field trial pros in the last 20 years were not influenced by Rex's methods even though they never spent time with him. What he did for retriever training was revolutionary, no other person has so influenced dog training.




In a conversation with Rex he explained how the first collars brought to him were made from motor cycle part and were they ever hot....The only time I heard dogs get vocal was when he would ( as Vicki put it ) dig into one....He used low level a lot ....He made it clear to me that we as trainers needed to walk in the dogs shoes....If he were alive today I believe he would be preaching a kinder gentler way when ever possible.... 

Ed, I ran across the name Dana in some old stuff I found ...I understand HE or She was from Texas ...Can you enlighten me on this person ...? Seem to be highly respected in the dog training world of long ago.....Thanks Steve S


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Thanks Melanie for taking me there. You told me the history, obviously a very special place for you. Very cool. I couldn't find it again even with a gps. Nice day, good luck with your Golden's.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

steve schreiner said:


> In a conversation with Rex he explained how the first collars brought to him were made from motor cycle part and were they ever hot....The only time I heard dogs get vocal was when he would ( as Vicki put it ) dig into one....He used low level a lot ....He made it clear to me that we as trainers needed to walk in the dogs shoes....If he were alive today I believe he would be preaching a kinder gentler way when ever possible....
> 
> Ed, *I ran across the name Dana in some old stuff I found* ...I understand HE or She was from Texas ...Can you enlighten me on this person ...? Seem to be highly respected in the dog training world of long ago.....Thanks Steve S



Not Dr A....but the Dana is probably Ms. Dana (Brown) Istre.....was one heck of a good trainer, had a great dog in FC AFC Paha Sapa Warpaint (full brother to Super Chief )....Dana really seemed to understand Rex's concepts, she also had a lot to do with teaching Jack Vollstedt how to train dogs in his early days in the FT game, when Jack lived in SoCal

Dana was a National Finalist twice, once with Warpaint and once with her former husband's dog Dual Ch AFC Royal Oaks Jill of Burgundy....


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

This is the problem I am having with my golden. First pro was good with him. Now he thinks he wants to dance around it with me. I got a Dogtra Collar for him. A warning buzz. He is a mild mannered fella. He forgives me then gives me that crooked devil smile like everything is okay ;-) Buck I believe can figure this boy out ;


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

featherqwest said:


> This is the problem I am having with my golden. First pro was good with him. Now he thinks he wants to dance around it with me. I got a Dogtra Collar for him. A warning buzz. He is a mild mannered fella. He forgives me then gives me that crooked devil smile like everything is okay ;-) Buck I believe can figure this boy out ;


if you think you are gettin an Escalon shuffle, with a warning buzz, then I say.......
"My, your dog is training you quite nicely isnt he?"
sounds like he is doing the figgering


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

Why Ken you are so right. He is a gentle boy. I never have to say much to him. My husband talks to him all the time. He is kinda like his human father. Goes in one ear and out the other. Kinda of like the girl's cackle as one man from High Point, NC told me. Ole Kodi is from "Cotton" Blood. Does what he wants when he want too. That has been a sayin round my house for ages with all my retrievers. Bill my husband was raised with Chessies. He is from Maryland down by the bay. He is from backwoods blood like me. :))


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

featherqwest said:


> ...... he wants when he want too. That has been a sayin round my house for ages with *all my retrievers*. .


You own what you condone.


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

Kinda of like my Rich Uncle Steve in Texas. He was a goin on his sixth wife when my Dad told him he needed to stop and smell the roses. Stick with one women not 25. The grass any always greener on the other side.


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

Very True. You reap what you sew. Reminds me I need to fire up my new sewing machine and make some tracking flags this morning from some rags layin around the house. The local salvo here in WF has some great stuff!!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

featherqwest said:


> Very True. You reap what you sew.


...Sow?...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Ken, here's a survival tip I learned growing up in the big city: when you see the crazy person on the corner mumbling to themselves, DO NOT engage, just cross to the other side of the street and avoid eye contact. :razz:


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

helen,
thanks for this thread, entertaining and interesting and i got a new term. in the past my description was, "hey, that dog runs out just like me when my wife tell me to take the trash can to the road!" i can shorten that to "escalon shuffle" in the future.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Interesting thread. Until it became mucked up with crazy talk. 

I have a term for you John- ****. Has to do with a certain percentage of golden owners who give the world the impression that Golden owners are by and large--well-- fruit loops. Really drives those of us who are normal(as normal as dog crazed retriever junkies can be) CRAZY.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

featherqwest said:


> Kinda of like my Rich Uncle Steve in Texas. He was a goin on his sixth wife when my Dad told him he needed to stop and smell the roses. Stick with one women not 25. The grass any always greener on the other side.


If there is grass it should be mowed. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> Interesting thread. Until it became mucked up with crazy talk.
> 
> I have a term for you John- ****. Has to do with a certain percentage of golden owners who give the world the impression that Golden owners are by and large--well-- fruit loops. Really drives those of us who are normal(as normal as dog crazed retriever junkies can be) CRAZY.


Your a normal golden owner?

/paul


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Your a normal golden owner?
> 
> /paul


I guess not. I am not a fruit loop. 

Its just embarrassing..........


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> Ken, here's a survival tip I learned growing up in the big city: when you see the crazy person on the corner mumbling to themselves, DO NOT engage, just cross to the other side of the street and avoid eye contact. :razz:


The problem with doing that in a small town is more than likely I'm related to them. By marriage of course.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2012)

7pntail said:


> Thanks Melanie for taking me there. You told me the history, obviously a very special place for you. Very cool. I couldn't find it again even with a gps. Nice day, good luck with your Golden's.


Looky hasn't done jack since we met you there but it's time for us to start hitting it. I also have one of her pups. Lord help me. Call me when you want to get together again. 

Note, I am not touching the Golden owners subject. :shock:


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Looky hasn't done jack since we met you there but it's time for us to start hitting it. I also have one of her pups. Lord help me. Call me when you want to get together again.
> 
> *Note, I am not touching the Golden owners subject. :shock:[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Note, I am not touching the Golden owners subject. :shock:


Most of us aren't-there are Fruitloops and then there are Cracker Jacks with Nuts.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> Most of us aren't-there are Fruitloops and then there are Cracker Jacks with Nuts.


I'm not touching those Nuts. No way, no how.

But I do love me some John Robinson. John, you give us Golden owners a good name.


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## Mark L (Mar 22, 2010)

I won't even try to tell anyone how to get out to "Billy's Place" as Melanie calls it, but I do have a few pictures from her being NICE enough to take me out there with her. It is definitely an awesome sight to behold.

Mark


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