# Gas guns in tests



## richchief (Aug 19, 2014)

More and more clubs are going to gas guns. This past weekend, I was judging a HT, and I really noticed how the gas guns where affecting the dogs. I feel they are not fair to the dogs including everything from the mechanics to the differences in sound of the shots. As the day went on, the wind grew stronger, and the gunners where having trouble filling the guns with gas. I have always had the shot at the top of the arc, but now I feel it has to be first so a dog can get a fair look at the bird. The gas guns are hard for new help to get the timing down having to do a duck call, filling a gun with gas and throwing a bird. I found it took more help in the field to make the mechanics work. Personally, I think you get a fairer test with poppers...just my two cents. Just wondering what you all think? Rich


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

They're OK for short guns on days without much wind. Everything else we use poppers for.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

I tend to agree with a couple of exceptions. #1 safety, I saw a judge pull the trigger while waiting for final series setup to be done and was that judge surprised by the hole in the ground beside his/her foot. #2 maintenance on the real guns, I have a bunch stored at my place because no one stepped up to clean and maintain off season. How many times have you seen a round not ejectable and then how much time does it take to get it right.


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## Wayne Nissen (Dec 31, 2009)

NO, All dogs should have the same set up. I have heard a puff one too many times.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

They are economical and can be very loud. I used a Thunder 100 a few times, difficult to be consistent in timing and volume and a PITA to carry around.
There are others made out of stainless or aluminum pipe, I forget the brand but hear they are much better.
Justified or not, the reason some club's are getting them is liability concern over minors handling shotguns with poppers.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

They are great for training but a pain as a judge because of inconsistent timing. Many bird boys have trouble learning how to time the fill based on the cadence of the judges calling for the birds. I prefer poppers, and our club voted to buy more popper guns in lieu of switching to gas guns. 

I like them for training. I have the small Thunder. It is well built and sturdy. It’s heavier than the Big John, but not enough to be an issue.


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes it is the liability thing. No Hunter ed. Or age requirement with these. Help is hard to find this makes it a bit easier.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

My only experience with them was in a Hunt Test I judged for Middle Tennessee. The inmates from the County jail had no trouble being consistent with them. -Paul


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

From a handler’s perspective, long mark, gunner difficult to see, get dog to focus, call for the bird, big delay, dog looks away. It happens almost every time I run a trial when they are used.
From a judge’s perspective, same scenario, at what point do you call no bird.
No to shotgun simulators unless the throwers use them frequently and anticipate the timing. If you cannot use poppers I would much prefer .22 blanks or .209 primers in a blank pistol.


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## lifeisgood (Feb 14, 2019)

EdA said:


> From a handler’s perspective, long mark, gunner difficult to see, get dog to focus, call for the bird, big delay, dog looks away. It happens almost every time I run a trial when they are used.
> From a judge’s perspective, same scenario, at what point do you call no bird.
> No to shotgun simulators unless the throwers use them frequently and anticipate the timing. If you cannot use poppers I would much prefer .22 blanks or .209 primers in a blank pistol.


I second the thoughts here.
I would also add that when you are spending $3-500 for entry fee gas hotel etc for an entry not to mention 2-3 days of your life the though of saving 50 cents by not shooting a popper is ridiculous and unfair to the dog who doesn't get to see the bird due to the frequent scenario laid out above by Ed.

I would be strongly in favor of the blank pistol for money saving purposes. Dogs hear them just fine unless your in a hurricane type wind. Additionally they are far more reliable than the cheap popper guns clubs use that get jammed or wont eject a shell or the popper is a dud. With a blank pistol if you have a misfire the thrower can pull the trigger again in a split second and many time consuming no birds could be avoided


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## richchief (Aug 19, 2014)

If not shotguns I agree with the last two post I would much rather have blank pistols. I believe they would be more fair for the dogs.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the gas guns. No accidents that I am aware. Popper guns are inherently more dangerous. With the groups that typically are used to throw birds, good judgement is not a given. If we keep one person from losing a toe, finger or any other body part then I think the switch is warranted.

At less than 150 yards hunt test distance, the occasional "poof" shouldn't be too large of an issue. There is typically a guy blowing a kazoo prior to the throw anyway. Teach a dog to move with the handler and focus on the stations and they will rarely miss a mark.

There is always some inherent unfairness in testing. The wind often switches and the sun never will stay in the same place. Judges, clubs and bird boys strive to keep the tests uniform but it is an exercise in futility.


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## ouachitariverrat (Feb 17, 2015)

yep...I ran a trial the other day where a long gun had a gas gun, after calling for the birds I was looking at the dog and listening for the boom before moving on to the right hand gun.....no boom, granted there was a wind, finally the right hand gun went off and the dog shifted to it, after the flyer was shot (triple) and the dog was sent I asked the judges if the long gun's gun misfired, they told the long gun guy to give it more gas next time....I like them for training, but for trials and tests there is too much of a variable in the sound they make according to the amount of gas the gun is primed with, especially when inexperienced people are operating them, and even more so when you have one on a long gun at 300 + yds.


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

""I ran a trial the other day where a long gun had a gas gun, after calling for the birds I was looking at the dog and listening for the boom before moving on to the right hand gun.....no boom""

Couple weeks ago we ran at a test with all Thunder Guns. Every time there was "no BOOM" it was called a "No Bird". There were lots of no birds.

There was talk of switching to a popper gun but a lack of kids with the Hunter Ed. and age requirement per AKC rules.


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## James Wick (Nov 17, 2012)

My club has used the Thunder Guns for both training and all master hunt tests this past year. Benefit in training is that they are loud like a popper, unlike primer pistols --- making trainiing more like the hunt test. Also, with the regular use in training our club members are well trained in their use and the proper timing of the boom at the top of the arc for thrown birds. For us, they have worked out well, no complaints at the hunt tests and the guns have more than paid for themselvers vs popper shells, over the course of one season.


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

I never had a issue with gas operated boom guns while judging. I do make sure that I confirm that each bird thrower knows how to operate them before starting the test.
The gun that's the first bird down should start to engage the propane button as soon the dog hits the mat, each gun afterward should charge their system at the moment the gun before them has been signaled(this usually gives them 6 seconds). I think its easier in a FT because "we shoot, then throw".
Duck calling, charging the system, throwing, and then shooting at the top of the arc would take some serious coordination.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Absolutely hate them boom guns. Heavy to use.....undependable for consistent sound.....never been at a trial that a special trip out was needed because one ran out of gas. Our club uses Lucky Lancher 2s with a juice can on the end to amplify and project the sound out. Way safer and cheaper than poppers. Sound is very load with red or yellow loads. Easy to train ever teen age users.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Here is the gas gun I was thinking of and I know there are others. https://www.boomguns.com/product-page/shotgun-simulator

I'll stick with a 209 pistol and my shotgun.


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

Seems like this feedback could be passed to the manufacturers. Maybe a pre-measured charge held in a chamber instead of a flow in, then fire mechanism. IDK


.32 blanks are loud. Expensive but loud.

There was also a recent training day where a participant accidentally loaded live ammo intended for flyers into a popper gun. Nobody was injured but something else to think about.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

At field trials I can see the greater hindrance, but for hunt tests the distances are no so great (150yds or less) that a safer, more economical option shouldn't be used. 

As some have mentioned for a field trial usage it's "OK" as a short gun (also easier/safer to retire with). 

Lastly, in all dog sports there will be unfairness. Short, flat throws, lousy duck call, weak flyer etc etc etc, its part of the game. This may potentially be an area, that when used to the best of its abilities is a less expensive and safer option.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

One thing to consider... with the new gun laws being proposed, you cannot “transfer” a gun to someone else without state permission. Therefore, a club cannot “give” or “loan” a shotgun to a kid to shoot even poppers. I don’t know if clubs in California are in this position yet. But, you know... we want to keep people safe so maybe we’ll all have to give up just a little more of our way of life to keep the agenda going.


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## richchief (Aug 19, 2014)

That is the problem we keep giving things up. Wont be long and we will be throwing bumps and yelling HA HA for the dogs. How long before the National go to gas guns? I hope never.


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## James Hurst (Jul 15, 2012)

I have seen these used by clubs in the Midwest at trials from Minnesota to Texas and have never seen an issue. Very easy to learn how to use, and a lot safer than popper guns in tha hands of inexperienced help.


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## mjiorle (Mar 11, 2008)

richchief said:


> That is the problem we keep giving things up. Wont be long and we will be throwing bumps and yelling HA HA for the dogs. How long before the National go to gas guns? I hope never.


Not as big of an issue at a National due to the fact that the "help" at a National is primarily adult, and fairly experienced. Weekend trials, you get what you get as far as help, and have to make due the best you can. Every club has it a little different from kids who have never seen a dead duck, to prisoners, to pros full time bird throwers.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Have seen plenty of no birds with popper guns. Reasons from broken firing pins, forgot to reload, rusted action, ad infinitum. See them with gas guns also. It is never the fault of the person using the gun but no birds disappear when you have experienced help.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

I like them. It all comes down to training the throwers. If you are using experienced throwers, its not a problem. And, when your club needs to buy new guns, what club member is willing to put all the popper guns in his/her name? A club cannot buy a gun.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The only real downside of the boom gun is the variability of sound - due to user inexperience - which can be addressed.

It's hard to beat the initial costs, the ongoing costs, and safety of the boom gun.

Ted


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## Jerry Running (Feb 16, 2009)

We switched to gas 4 years ago 8 hunt tests 8 field trials and no problems. Seems like training the help in proper use is the key from a safety standpoint there is no comparison a hammer back poorly maintained piece of crap that can do serious harm or something safe?From a economic viewpoint we save the cost of 30 cases of poppers that’s big!!There also some much more efficient and easier to use gas guns out there you just have to look for them. If you insist MCKC has a bunch of popper guns for sale!!!!!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> The only real downside of the boom gun is the variability of sound - due to user inexperience -
> Ted


I wish that was the only downside. The delay between calling for the birds and the actual throw because the damn thing didn’t fire is worst downside which handlers fall victim to every weekend. There are enough extraneous factors that keep the dog from seeing the bird that are not man made without adding an additional man made one. I would support a ban on using them at field trials until technology reduces human influence and increases dependability.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have not experienced any problems with them in hunt test and training. I don’t have one as I train alone a lot. But I see them when I train with pros.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

richchief said:


> How long before the National go to gas guns? I hope never.


At least never in my lifetime which hopefully is awhile. Perhaps when the NRC becomes fake ducks why not fake shotguns also?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

EdA said:


> Ted Shih said:
> 
> 
> > The only real downside of the boom gun is the variability of sound - due to user inexperience -
> ...


Do judges not try to entice things like head swinging etc by the simple existence of their set ups? What about the flier throwers who refuse to put their finger in the disc of a ducks neck to keep them quiet or, using a mixed bag of fliers with hens and drake and throwing un sexed birds on the long gun? Popper guns work fine when the user has experience. Almost always, the thrower gets in a rhythm and its the same all day. Just the same as one bird boy who pops and throws faster than the others. Its still the same for everyone even if the one guy is different.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Pfancy Pants said:


> Do judges not try to entice things like head swinging etc by the their setups.


Particularly popular this Spring around here, in addition to inconsistent performance of gas guns, is the ubiquitous flier on the left (often short) with at least one or two dead bird marks with a thrower who is vague and difficult for the dog to pick out. Favorite locations are in or near trees and in the shade or shadows. Sometimes the vaguest mark isn’t even thrown first thereby insuring dogs will not see the second mark. This has happened far too often to be accidental or an oversight.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This is one of the most ignored sections in Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers.
Page 29
8. On marked retrieves, a dog should be able to see each bird in the air and as it falls, and the Guns shall be so stationed as to be conspicuous to and easily identified by the dog


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

There are no perfect solutions to gun/thrower mechanics and costs these days. Gunning and throwing is one of the biggest challenges for those who are organizing trials.I far prefer the loud boom of map gas over the 22 pop or starter pistols. I think our club has had mostly good experiences using our gas guns. They are inexpensive to use, and nothing to clean and maintain. Wind can be the biggest problem for them.
The biggest factor to their successful use in triples and quads, is that we use a popper gun for the first bird down. This allows the 2nd bird (1st gas gun) to time the shot and throw perfectly.
IMO it is as good of an investment as any that our club has made.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Just to show how bad it can be using the boom guns. At a recent Open land test in Texas we competed in. The Long Gun basically hidden in the trees for almost the first half of the field the gun was heard about 1 in 3 shots. The second bird also very back lit the gun was heard about 1 out of 2 shots. The flyer guns 3 of them shortish and on the left were definitely heard as they released many 5 and 6 shot salutes with many very late called no birds. These were adult helpers and were instructed on how to use them. The unfairness of this can not be over stated. The Gas guns should be band from the game IMHO.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Gar, The gas guns should be as loud or louder than a shotgun. Why were the guns not being heard?


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

O.clarki said:


> Yes it is the liability thing. *No Hunter ed. Or age requirement with these. Help is hard to find this makes it a bit easier*.


Wrong, wrong ,wrong.

Pg 40 7th paragraph.


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## wprebeck (May 8, 2018)

Not to stir the pot, but I hope that's a joke about using inmates.


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## djansma (Aug 26, 2004)

No joke 
at the cattle ranch in Alabama use inmates very polite and great help have judged there quite a few times


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## wprebeck (May 8, 2018)

Well...hope I never have to deal with that. Given that federal law prohibits domestic violence offenders from firearm possession, and I'm not aware of a state that allows felons to posses a gun - there's a lot of liability involved in allowing prisoners to handle guns at a hunt test.

After 19 years of working in LE, I've no illusions as to the vetting process that allowed inmates to be used in these functions. My current assignment has me in a unit that handles people assigned to house arrest by the courts, either as a form of sentencing or while awaiting trial/adjudication of their crime. 

Given that I routinely interact with those accused of murder, rape, robbery and other violent offenses, pardon my doubts as to the wisdom of using inmates to assist in hunt tests/field trials. Matter of fact, I became involved in these events to get away from work related things. Sad to see that might not be possible.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

wprebeck said:


> Well...hope I never have to deal with that. Given that federal law prohibits domestic violence offenders from firearm possession, and I'm not aware of a state that allows felons to posses a gun - there's a lot of liability involved in allowing prisoners to handle guns at a hunt test.
> 
> After 19 years of working in LE, I've no illusions as to the vetting process that allowed inmates to be used in these functions. My current assignment has me in a unit that handles people assigned to house arrest by the courts, either as a form of sentencing or while awaiting trial/adjudication of their crime.
> 
> Given that I routinely interact with those accused of murder, rape, robbery and other violent offenses, pardon my doubts as to the wisdom of using inmates to assist in hunt tests/field trials. Matter of fact, I became involved in these events to get away from work related things. Sad to see that might not be possible.


Are you joking, or do you not understand that "gas guns" are not firearms and inmates are not all violent criminals?


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## James Hurst (Jul 15, 2012)

Lpgar said:


> Just to show how bad it can be using the boom guns. At a recent Open land test in Texas we competed in. The Long Gun basically hidden in the trees for almost the first half of the field the gun was heard about 1 in 3 shots. The second bird also very back lit the gun was heard about 1 out of 2 shots. The flyer guns 3 of them shortish and on the left were definitely heard as they released many 5 and 6 shot salutes with many very late called no birds. These were adult helpers and were instructed on how to use them. The unfairness of this can not be over stated. The Gas guns should be band from the game IMHO.


I would be curious as to which trial this was, as I just spent the last 2 months in Texas running trials.


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## chessiedog (Oct 23, 2011)

I have mixed emotions about them as a judge and HTbchairman. Bottom line is they are cost efficient and available. There is a learning curve so, As a judge, I make sure my BB’s know how to use them prior to the start of the test.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

wprebeck said:


> Not to stir the pot, but I hope that's a joke about using inmates.


Inmates from the County jail are also used at Middle Tennesee's HT's and FT's. They are polite, on time and work hard all day. They use gas guns exclusively on the dead bird stations. When I judged for them we had no issues with the guns or the help.-Paul


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

James Hurst said:


> I would be curious as to which trial this was, as I just spent the last 2 months in Texas running trials.


Not one you attended.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

wprebeck said:


> Well...hope I never have to deal with that. Given that federal law prohibits domestic violence offenders from firearm possession, and I'm not aware of a state that allows felons to posses a gun - there's a lot of liability involved in allowing prisoners to handle guns at a hunt test.
> 
> After 19 years of working in LE, I've no illusions as to the vetting process that allowed inmates to be used in these functions. My current assignment has me in a unit that handles people assigned to house arrest by the courts, either as a form of sentencing or while awaiting trial/adjudication of their crime.
> 
> Given that I routinely interact with those accused of murder, rape, robbery and other violent offenses, pardon my doubts as to the wisdom of using inmates to assist in hunt tests/field trials. Matter of fact, I became involved in these events to get away from work related things. Sad to see that might not be possible.


Inmates are not allowed in the flyer station. They use "boomers" which are not firearms but a glorified gas noisemaker. The inmates are polite, efficient and know their jobs.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

> Inmates are not allowed in the flyer station. They use "boomers" which are not firearms but a glorified gas noisemaker. The inmates are polite, efficient and know their jobs.


Second this. Was down at a test a few weeks ago. I was shooting flyers. Prisoners were not allowed in the flyer station. They were super polite, eager to help, and put up with horrible conditions without complaint. This was also the test were Rich(the OP) was questioning the consistency. The wind was blowing strongly away from the line making an misfire all the more relevant. It is easier for experienced retriever people to handle these noise makers as we are aware of the timing of throws and what is expected. Having 'hired' help who are not retriever people makes it much harder to run a consistent test or trial using boom sticks.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

red devil said:


> Second this. Was down at a test a few weeks ago. I was shooting flyers. Prisoners were not allowed in the flyer station. They were super polite, eager to help, and put up with horrible conditions without complaint.


Also agree ... have run several hunt tests (both AKC and HRC events) at the cattle ranch where "state" help was used at the gun stations. Agree with red devil in the fact that they been polite, ready to help and hang in there regardless of what Mother Nature throws at them. 

Heard that once paroled, some ended up being hired by pro's as bird boys as they knew what was to be expected in training.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

If we are keeping track, put me down as a no. HPW


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## wprebeck (May 8, 2018)

> Are you joking, or do you not understand that "gas guns" are not firearms and inmates are not all violent criminals?


I'm not joking, I do understand that gas guns aren't firearms, and without getting into a pissing contest - I'd venture a guess that I am as familiar with inmates as any pro trainer is with dogs. 19 years of dealing with inmates of various stripes has taught me all I need to know.

I'm still new to the hunt test world and haven't seen gas guns in person. I have seen a variety of real firearms used with poppers. It would be those tests that would concern me.

As far as inmates being polite - I don't trust them. As I said, 19 years has exposed me to every type of criminal that exists. Many are very polite, right up to the time they do whatever bad thing they had planned or took the opportunity that was available. 

I'll just leave it with this - it's very disappointing to see hunt tests using inmates. I'm volunteering both my services and those of two of my kids for our club's test. Should they decide to use inmates, that won't be the case, and we won't be members of any such club in the future.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

wprebeck said:


> I'm not joking, I do understand that gas guns aren't firearms, and without getting into a pissing contest - I'd venture a guess that I am as familiar with inmates as any pro trainer is with dogs. 19 years of dealing with inmates of various stripes has taught me all I need to know.
> 
> I'm still new to the hunt test world and haven't seen gas guns in person. I have seen a variety of real firearms used with poppers. It would be those tests that would concern me.
> 
> ...


No offense meant. These are gas guns.
https://www.boomguns.com/

https://www.gundogsupply.com/thunder-100-with-6-bumpers.html

I don't think anyone said inmates were using firearms and I doubt they came from maximum security prisons. 
Probably mostly just drunks and maybe some poachers.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

It probably isn't the best idea in the world to take an inmate work crew near a concentration of shotguns or hunting. You never know. They might get a taste of freedom and go wacko. A pretty Spring day can make people do things like play hide and seek.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Just saw a picture on FB of a boy that was burned badly from an explosion while using a "gas gun". He was in the hospital. Happened during training I think.


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## jwilliams38930 (Sep 19, 2017)

I haven't read all the messages in this thread, but a couple I read are on point, a couple are way off base. I'll just leave this link here to a Facebook post about this very subject and let you make your own judgment. 

https://www.facebook.com/Bestretrievers/posts/10156999542443971


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

jwilliams38930 said:


> I haven't read all the messages in this thread, but a couple I read are on point, a couple are way off base. I'll just leave this link here to a Facebook post about this very subject and let you make your own judgment.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/Bestretrievers/posts/10156999542443971


That's a horrible accident. So sorry for the young man. Does anyone have any idea what went wrong?? Perhaps something we could all learn from??


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Very glad the young man is going to be OK. 
I have seen many propane and map gas tanks bend at the neck but never break. Lots of leverage on the tank with that type gas gun. 
Product liability will no doubt force a change in design.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

wprebeck said:


> I'm not joking, I do understand that gas guns aren't firearms, and without getting into a pissing contest - I'd venture a guess that I am as familiar with inmates as any pro trainer is with dogs. 19 years of dealing with inmates of various stripes has taught me all I need to know.
> 
> I'm still new to the hunt test world and haven't seen gas guns in person. I have seen a variety of real firearms used with poppers. It would be those tests that would concern me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you need to start your own club and see how hard it is to find good throwers. I will take the prisoners at the cattle ranch any day over a boy scout troop or Highschool sports teams. The Warden at the Cattle Ranch competed in trials for a long time and had no issue using the inmates. Been going to, and judging at the Cattle Ranch since 2005 and to my knowledge there has never been an issue with an inmate or a situation where anyone felt concerned.


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## richchief (Aug 19, 2014)

I just judged there wish all the help at trials where that good. Made my job easy i have worked a lot of trails and know what is like to sit all day in the rain or in the heat a good bunch of men.


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## Frank Pittelli (Jun 25, 2014)

NateB said:


> Does anyone have any idea what went wrong?? Perhaps something we could all learn from??


See the "Gas Gun Accident" thread for a list of preventative steps that can be taken now to reduce the chances of a similar failure.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I've worked tests and trained at the Al State Cattle Ranch for about than 25 years. The inmates have strict rules on what they can and can't do and there are Corrections officer supervisors that are present to see that they comply. It's an honor farm and the inmates know that one violation of the rules sends them back to very different and harsher conditions.

There was an inmate called Shorty that used to be there. A group of us trained every Wed afternoon and Shorty would arrange for a group of 4-5 inmates plus himself to be ready to help. Shorty had done this for so long that we could pick a landscape and tell what we wanted. Then we'd go about getting the dogs aired and ready to go and when we were finished, Shorty had everything set up and very few changes had to be made. One day we heard he had earned a parole and we'd lose him. We asked what he was going to do and were told that he was going to work for a big time setter operation right there in Montgomery as the primary trainer.

So, to those who are concerned, at the "Cattle Ranch, now belonging to the Dept of Conservation as part of the Forever Wild Trust, the inmates are well supervised. In fact, it is no longer a state prison farm technically. The Dept of Corrections uses the dorms as housing for inmates on work-release and 4 or 5 work at the operations of the land trust. For those who don't know, it is now about 1400 acres of land that is used exclusively for dog training and events. We see the world as a retriever world but they have areas developed and managed for retrievers, pointers and setters, spaniels, beagles, etc. If it barks, they hold events there.


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## Dennis (Jun 23, 2006)

I personally don’t think you give each dog the same sequence if it takes a minute or two longer when judge signaled just not fair. 
The delay causes head swinging are just the dogs flat out miss seeing birds. 
Just don’t like them. 
Just my opinion


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