# Master Test



## priceskeet (Jun 30, 2008)

It's crazy Atlanta Retriever Club's master filled up in 31 minutes !!!!!!!!!! 120 dogs 
Mid-South double master filled up fast to, 120 dogs.

Hope it slows down some in the spring.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

It will be like this for the next 2 years.


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## Dave Mirek (Jan 23, 2007)

What will change in 2 years? The fact that we will see what the current format has done and killed all the newcomers from getting involved?


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Sadie & Ruby said:


> What will change in 2 years? The fact that we will see what the current format has done and killed all the newcomers from getting involved?


The MN will be back on the west coast in a couple years...


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

West coast MN didn't change anything around here this past year.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Guess we were thinking about east coasters. Maybe hoping for some type of fix.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

The good ole paper days of mailed entries are looking better! 

Limited entries were a good idea for a few areas but the dang thing has backfired 
Just not sure how I will react when we run into an entry problem. 
Like most folks I will probably vote with my feet 
It is very flustrating not to be able to correct an issue and to feel helpless 
I can't believe The AKC ever meant for this to happen 
Dk


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Two new clubs holding tests in VA this fall. The best solution to increased demand, is to increase supply.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

The problem is fixable. Just return to the 5 of 7 rule for MN qualifying. You have 7 tries to qualify 5 times. If you don't make it there's always next year. Unfortunately this won't being in the same amount of money so it won't happen. 

Dawn


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## Jeannie Greenlee (Apr 15, 2009)

On the other hand...The Golden Club of Greater St. Louis has an *unlimited master test* and there are only 44 entries and it has been open since Monday. I bet if we had limited it to 120 it would be full or near full by now. It would be so very helpful if people that intend to enter this test would do so and not wait so that we can see if we need the additional flight of judges we have secured or if we need to secure more judges. We are trying to do what we see as the right thing but without the cooperation of the exhibitors all we seem to be doing is making our job harder. We did the same thing in the spring and ended up with 58 dogs and ran 2 flights anyway. It looks like we will be limiting our master tests going forward so we know what to plan for.
#tired of the master test complaining


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

See your point #10, # 9 do you recall the 5/7 days and the judge shopping that went on and #8 that is a great solution
And yep i am tired of complaining and hearing about it. Good point
Dk


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## Scott R. (Mar 13, 2012)

One thing nice about this test was that the opening was well publicized. I thought it was fair to everyone who wanted in.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Rose Cty TX. LRRC NC also open, unlimited.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

mostlygold said:


> The problem is fixable. Just return to the 5 of 7 rule for MN qualifying. You have 7 tries to qualify 5 times. If you don't make it there's always next year. Unfortunately this won't being in the same amount of money so it won't happen.
> 
> Dawn


I don't see that helping really. That rule also allowed for you to pass 8 test if you didn't make the 5.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I like what Black Warrior Club is doing. they are limiting to 120 but in the premium it states the opening day for club members and worker 1 day prior to being opened to the public. That way at least your workers which are members most of the time will get in.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

How is that going to work? Is there a secret code that the members will receive and have to enter first or is it going to be by the honesty system?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Black Warrior is actually at 180 limit on master entries. We hope that is the magic number that doesn't result in instantly full tests. I can't take any credit for the worker idea but will happily accept any blame. We are trying to be proactive and provide a solution while abiding by the rules.

I applaud all clubs that are running unlimited tests! Planning for the unknown is certainly a daunting task. As participants, it would be courteous to enter early to provide time for planning.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Mark, I wasn't being critical I was just wondering how have you worked out the mechanics? I am seriously asking how will that work? This could certainly be part of a solution.

Our club is used to putting on really big tests. Last spring we limited to three flights of master (180) as that is what we normally have when things are unlimited. We felt we had to set the limits this year because a neighboring club that normally puts on a test the same weekend with 2 flights cancelled their test. And we had lost a lot of key workers over the past year and a half to death and frankly had the wind taken out of our sails. This fall we are limiting to 2 flights because we feel that is what the land we are on for fall can comfortably support. Our test date falls on the last weekend for MN this year so we think 2 flights might be adequate. We have announced the time and date for our opening on EE. 

I applaud all clubs that do as much as they can during this crisis in our game. There has to be a solution.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

From the Premium: "Because this is a limited master entry the BWRC is requesting as a show of good sportsmanship that Oct 13, 2014 be reserved for club members and workers to enter with general entry set to begin on Oct 14, 2014"


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Kyle B said:


> From the Premium: "Because this is a limited master entry the BWRC is requesting as a show of good sportsmanship that Oct 13, 2014 be reserved for club members and workers to enter with general entry set to begin on Oct 14, 2014"


Thank you Kyle!!


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I love the Idea , hope it works. I plan on letting our members know in advance the time and date I will open for entries. We are so far down south that we more than likely will not fill. The only thing that will help is having the double master.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Mark, please make some room on your PMs. Thanks.


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## JBlack (Sep 17, 2003)

Great idea, hope it goes well and more clubs will follow.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Not to hi- jack the thread but for Bwrc the Akc will not allow more than 1 opening date so the idea is an honor system. The club must exhibit the same good sportsmanship as we ask of others. Thinking the idea will work for the most part 
Dk


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Mark, please make some room on your PMs. Thanks.


Done!!!


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

In regards to limited tests and limits working against club member/workers. Is it possible to "reserve" say 10 or 15 slots for those m/w for the 1st week and then open them up? That would give time for m/w to get their act together and still make slots for "outsiders" before closing. Perhaps those reserved slots could be managed by the HT secretary. I know those are the people who are overworked but soon I feel they will be further overworked by disgruntle club members disappearing.

As an added clubs could consider having a member worker requirement for those few slots. I think one of the WI clubs does have a work requirement for use of their grounds and member privledges. That might solve disappearing members when the work needs to be done.

It seems to me that most of these discussions are aimed at those m/w not being able to get in. After that who cares who gets in as long as the event fills. Snooze, you lose for non-members.

It would be in the interest of EE to find a way to work with HT Secretaries in this area since the future is bleak for their business unless things change for the better in this particular area.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

When the demand for hamburgers increased, McDonalds built more stores. When the demand for beer increased, the corner convenience store got a bigger beer cooler. Just sayin'.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

jacduck said:


> In regards to limited tests and limits working against club member/workers. Is it possible to "reserve" say 10 or 15 slots for those m/w for the 1st week and then open them up? That would give time for m/w to get their act together and still make slots for "outsiders" before closing. Perhaps those reserved slots could be managed by the HT secretary. I know those are the people who are overworked but soon I feel they will be further overworked by disgruntle club members disappearing.
> 
> As an added clubs could consider having a member worker requirement for those few slots. I think one of the WI clubs does have a work requirement for use of their grounds and member privledges. That might solve disappearing members when the work needs to be done.
> 
> ...


Short answer - no. Clubs can't restrict entries from anyone w/o cause.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

David - judge shopping is just as prevalent now. It is simply about the money. If it wasn't they would try it again. 

And to those that say offer more tests to keep up with the demand. Clubs are not businesses, they don't have the capital or the workforce to offer more tests. Grounds and resources dwindle every year. Just ask people who train their own dogs how hard it is to find ground to train on. It is not a supply and demand problem. If McDonalds had no new places to build stores and no people to work in them, they would not be able to meet the demand either. This problem was created by greed.

Dawn


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Your right about grounds not being available for ams. I have to drive hr to get to one area to train and 1 1/2 to get to the other. When it is so hot you drive that far and run 1 or 2 set ups and your done than drive that distance back.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

mostlygold said:


> David - judge shopping is just as prevalent now. It is simply about the money. If it wasn't they would try it again.
> 
> And to those that say offer more tests to keep up with the demand. Clubs are not businesses, they don't have the capital or the workforce to offer more tests. Grounds and resources dwindle every year. Just ask people who train their own dogs how hard it is to find ground to train on. It is not a supply and demand problem. If McDonalds had no new places to build stores and no people to work in them, they would not be able to meet the demand either. This problem was created by greed.
> 
> Dawn


"Greed?" How so. I don't see anyone getting rich in the HT game. Maybe you could explain how "This problem was created by greed."


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Good Dogs said:


> Two new clubs holding tests in VA this fall. The best solution to increased demand, is to increase supply.


Bingo....Sorry don't want to keep repeating myself. But where is the support for the third event a club hosts to be a Master only event????


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

Good dogs - not the Ht clubs. The AKC and MN are who I am referring. They make the rules regarding how qualifications are made. AKC is not going to kill its cash cow by limiting the number of tries allowed to get the passes. I state again that this is an issue created by MN and the clubs are left to deal with the aftermath.

Dawn


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I didn't think AKC made rules regarding number of MH passes needed to qualify for MN.
Do you really think the MN wants 800 entries?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Tom, I think if they didn't, they would make it substantially more difficult to qualify. I think they are going to be looking at 900-1000 next year.-Paul


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Didn't or did?


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## Jim Spagna (Apr 21, 2008)

Karen Klotthor said:


> I like what Black Warrior Club is doing. they are limiting to 120 but in the premium it states the opening day for club members and worker 1 day prior to being opened to the public. That way at least your workers which are members most of the time will get in.


I agree!!! Mid-South 120 limit double Master filled up in just a few hours. The club members got shut out. That need to be corrected! It's GREAT that they are filling up...NOT great that its at the expense of the club members!


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Tom,

I think they want to have a lot of dogs qualify.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Anyone else have trouble even getting into EE last night? I couldn't get it to open and was wondering if it had to do with everyone trying to enter a test at once.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Or maybe get rid of the MN clubs all together. Then make it so your premier event means something by making it harder to qualify for. Maybe 15 passes or 20 this way rather than watering down the superbowl of hunt tests with 900 dogs you might end up with say 300 or less? Not everyone and their brother needs to qualify.



mostlygold said:


> The problem is fixable. Just return to the 5 of 7 rule for MN qualifying. You have 7 tries to qualify 5 times. If you don't make it there's always next year. Unfortunately this won't being in the same amount of money so it won't happen.
> 
> Dawn


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

jhnnythndr said:


> Anyone else have trouble even getting into EE last night? I couldn't get it to open and was wondering if it had to do with everyone trying to enter a test at once.


Looking at EE log no website issues. Could have been a local internet issue.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

MIDTNGRNHEAD said:


> When the demand for hamburgers increased, McDonalds built more stores. When the demand for beer increased, the corner convenience store got a bigger beer cooler. Just sayin'.


Get your club to hold another event & volunteer to help.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

mostlygold said:


> Good dogs - not the Ht clubs. The AKC and MN are who I am referring. They make the rules regarding how qualifications are made. AKC is not going to kill its cash cow by limiting the number of tries allowed to get the passes. I state again that this is an issue created by MN and the clubs are left to deal with the aftermath.
> 
> Dawn


Show us how AKC is "getting rich" on the HT program. The fees are a nit compared to other events. And the MNRC gains nothing from weekend HTs. Clubs have a choice of being MNRC clubs are not. And the member clubs vote on the MN rules. So, again, pls tell us who is getting rich and how.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

AKC gets $2.50 or $3 per dog for every dog entered. How many dogs run each weekend, each year. You do the math. 120 dog masters. That's minimum $300 for just master for just that one event. Many, many events being run on same weekend all year. That is a lot of money being brought in. Since MN, the number of dogs running MH stake has multiplied 10 times. MN club getting what $350-$375 per entry at 800 entries. I guess your right , no money being made there. The only ones being hurt by this are small clubs and amateur dog owners. 

Yes you can opt not to be a MN member and no clubs don't really get a say in what goes on at MN meeting. It's not really a democratic type vote.

Dawn


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## winger (Sep 22, 2010)

I have been sitting on the EE button as test open up. Need 1 more master pass and only 2 test w/in 4 hours to get it done this fall. Got in one, will be tweaking at the computer for the second test to open


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

winger said:


> I have been sitting on the EE button as test open up. Need 1 more master pass and only 2 test w/in 4 hours to get it done this fall. Got in one, will be tweaking at the computer for the second test to open


Do not know where you are located, but the L.I. Golden club will be holding a Master test this Oct and they hope to be a member of the Master National Club by that time.
As of today, Aug3 it is still not posted on EE. Soon so do not leave sitting by your computer.....


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

So #44 i cant resist. Just to be accurate to a degree on this windfall rhe AkC makes. 
The Akc fee per dog per test is 3.50 a dog 

The ht program does about 35000 entries a year so that is 35k x 3.5 or the staggering sum of 122k 
The ft program has about the same numbers. 
So for 250,000 the akc keeps the lights on and tracks all this stuff- so how big is the windfall? 
Sorry but your math just doesnt work 
Dk


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

So I cant resist more #44 and o hit the send button too quick before i had my view on the MN. 

The MN club is a club just like the one I hope you belong too and partcipate in. The MN club has a stated goal of bringing the best hunting retrievers together one time a year to be tested. The members of that governing body are our peers elected by our delegates. These people step forward in addition to thier local club obligations and are amongest us training and campaigning thier dogs. They are not prefect but they subject themselves to a lot of opinion from many fronts. It takes desire and grit to be on that board in my eyes. 
The bottom line is the MN is a club and it takes lots of funds to put on that event. The MN is not affilated with the Akc any more than your local club and if you can better the organization please step forward and be elected by your peer group to be on the board or to judge. The delegates ( local clubs) elect and really govern the MN board and i will just guess that anyone of that group will wave you right in should you want to help with a solution to how to be better. 

This beat down of the MN is just crazy and unfounded, please be in Calif. be a delegate and speak your piece and if you have a better idea the delegates ( about 162 of them) will back you right up 
Dk


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

Dave Kress said:


> So I cant resist more #44 and o hit the send button too quick before i had my view on the MN...


Dave, You sure it wasn't just an itchy trigger finger from trying to quickly enter master tests on EE? I hear that's one of the symptoms.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Good one Dan and i would have used that itchy trigger finger line if I had thought of it 

For contrast - we are in Canada and to be accurate at the Saskatoon Club Ht
They had a triple master this weekend. Saturday had 22 master dogs , sunday 21 and today is 21. Each day the junior and senior entries have been around 15 each. Everyone entered here is an amateur ! The entries for the National Master close on Wednesday and they had just more than 20 entries yesterday but a few more envelopes got turned in last night - what a contrast 

I hear all this stuff- the Akc may secertly be responsible for global warming, the MN probably has something to do with this mess in gaza. The truth is our sport is not growing and master entries are flat at just over 16k a year. Since we have 3 dogs that we try to qualify each year that means we have about 20 entries of the 16k and there are a lot of folks like us i believe. My view is we need to find a way to build, grow and cheer on the successes of our fellow dog folks 

Enough from me - we are judging today so must go 
Dk


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Dave Kress said: "For contrast - we are in Canada and to be accurate at the Saskatoon Club Ht
They had a triple master this weekend. Saturday had 22 master dogs , sunday 21 and today is 21. Each day the junior and senior entries have been around 15 each. Everyone entered here is an amateur ! The entries for the National Master close on Wednesday and they had just more than 20 entries yesterday but a few more envelopes got turned in last night - what a contrast "

Now that sounds like a master test from the 1990's. And it sounds like it could be fun.

On the subject of the MN, I am sure the people who participate have fun. Unfortunately, OWNER/HANDLER involvement has diminished each year. HT's were supposed to be for amateurs, but insofar as the MN is concerned, that ship has sailed. It will be interesting to see if the financial report of the 2014 MN is like the last time it was in Region 4, as one of the 2 clubs I belong to is still MNRC affiliated. Personally, I was appalled when I finally saw the extremely sketchy, non-specific financial report supplied VERY reluctantly to my other club and how big the loss was. That was the basis of that club's withdrawal from the MNRC. We continue to hold AKC HT's annually, manage to make ends meet, and have fun without the drama.-Paul


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## Tom Lehr (Sep 11, 2008)

Dave,

Let's not forget that Hunt Tests & Field Trials for Retrievers are not the only thing that "Keeps the Lights On" Each weekend think about how many dog entries for every venue. I wouldn't mind having the revenue generated by only one weekend of all of the AKC entries.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Tom i hope the AKC is making some coins cause you just dont stay in business if you dont. 
However our retrievers are in the preformance department and we are just a pimple on the big picture. our 75k of entries is just insignificant in the big story in my opinion. Yep our puppies add to the breeding registrations somehow our sport just doesn't carry financial clout 
Maybe I am wrong 
Dk


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## Paul Kartes (Jun 29, 2006)

MIDTNGRNHEAD said:


> When the demand for hamburgers increased, McDonalds built more stores. When the demand for beer increased, the corner convenience store got a bigger beer cooler. Just sayin'.


The problem is the current Master National Q format is killing the base JH / SH. You cant have more clubs if you don't have more workers.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Karen Klotthor said:


> I like what Black Warrior Club is doing. they are limiting to 120 but in the premium it states the opening day for club members and worker 1 day prior to being opened to the public. That way at least your workers which are members most of the time will get in.


I would hope that they have WRITTEN permission from the AC to do this. if I am correct, no one can limit or exclude who can enter prior to the actual opening of an event.


Treading on thin ice Regards


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't know the mechanics of test paperwork. But if a club is a MN member, can they still offer an AKC test that ISN'T a MN test? Thinking that the clubs who put on a MN test once a year that fills immediately but shuts out workers (which could well be considered a big success depending on how you look at it) might offer a smaller AKC only test for local and near-local entries. One designed to be of moderate size, where they only do the AKC paperwork and publicize in the premium that it's AKC only, not MN. An AKC only test would eliminate almost everybody who travels very far as well as most pros, I suspect, but the locals would have a chance to get legs on their AKC titles. Doable? I don't know, just wondering if it's possible.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

mostlygold said:


> AKC gets $2.50 or $3 per dog for every dog entered. How many dogs run each weekend, each year. You do the math. 120 dog masters. That's minimum $300 for just master for just that one event. Many, many events being run on same weekend all year. That is a lot of money being brought in. Since MN, the number of dogs running MH stake has multiplied 10 times. MN club getting what $350-$375 per entry at 800 entries. I guess your right , no money being made there. The only ones being hurt by this are small clubs and amateur dog owners.
> 
> Yes you can opt not to be a MN member and no clubs don't really get a say in what goes on at MN meeting. It's not really a democratic type vote.
> 
> Dawn


The AKC event fee is $3.50 per dog. W/O charging this, how do you propose they pay the people who record and process the data from the event ?

This mess is not about the AKC wanting or making more $$$ of the HT's. This mess is about the MN, pure and simple and the fewer of owners running there own dogs in weekend events. The explosion of Pro's going North and South each year and bringing the kennel with them bares this out. You cannot blame them for this, only work to fix the limited entry situation. 

NFHRA in Minnesota is running an unlimited Master this month. We are lucky to have 2500 acres available and a good work force. In our area, are are an exception with most all of the clubs needing to run limited stakes because of land restrictions. Someone mentioned running more tests. Not an easy thing when all but 2 weekends are booked already with HT's and with most clubs also running FT's. Comments like that are usually from people who are not involved with a club and are just taking from those of us who are. 

We are looking forward to a HUGE Master entry and hope to provide a great testing weekend. Handlers will be a big part of the success or failure of this by their efforts over the 2 days we are running. 

Open for business and Space available Regards.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Golddogs said:


> I would hope that they have WRITTEN permission from the AC to do this. if I am correct, no one can limit or exclude who can enter prior to the actual opening of an event.
> 
> 
> Treading on thin ice Regards


As the chair of the event, I am comfortable with our request for sportsmanship.

If you want to discuss the matter my e-mail and phone number are on the premium.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

fishduck said:


> As the chair of the event, I am comfortable with our request for sportsmanship.
> 
> If you want to discuss the matter my e-mail and phone number are on the premium.


No need. The way the first post read was not as later described. I hope for your sake it works well and people respect your request.


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