# EIC Hypothetical



## jrock (Dec 30, 2007)

Here is a crazy twist to think about. What would people think about selecting against EIC if it were to come out that 85+% of NFC's, NAFC's, high point dogs were EIC carriers.(I am not saying I believe this is true) If the statistics hold up that only 40% of FT dogs are affected or carriers, that would mean that this smaller population is more likely to be outstanding than the more common EIC clear. If I were to see this, I would begin to wonder if the EIC gene was linked to some other trait that made these dogs incredible performance dogs. I think we need to really be careful in how we progress with the information we have. What does everyone else think?
Jon


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

> If the statistics hold up that only 40% of FT dogs are affected or carriers, that would mean that this smaller population is more likely to be outstanding than the more common EIC clear.


Only if you are completely illogical!! Since 60% of the breed at large is clear (no copy of the gene), then LOGIC predicts that 60% of any arbitrary group of Labs chosen by other traits would be clear. So, let's take FC dogs as a group.... epidemiology predicts that 60% of them are clear of the gene. How about NAFC dogs -- again, the prediction would be 60% clear. How about yellow dogs? You guessed it - predicted to be 60% clear. 

In addition to being illogical, let's test this theory on the face of it. It presumes that dogs WITH the EIC gene are more outstanding as FT performers. OK.... then why are the 40% of show dogs with the EIC gene not out winning trials? For ANYONE who mistakenly thinks that the EIC gene is somehow linked to a gene for high drive, excitability and intensity, PLEASE go visit your show dog neighbors with EIC dogs. That has been one of the problems in trying to educate show line breeders about EIC - so few of the dogs ever have an episode that many don't believe it is even a concern. WHY?? Likely because they do not have the same "trigger" genes as FT bred dogs. 

Many conformation lines have been selected for an easy-going nature and less intensity - which seems to reduce the trigger level for collapse. Many, many of the dogs tested as affected so far in these lines have never shown any sign of the problem - collapse is rare. By contrast, most FT lines VALUE the intensity, excitability and focus required at the top level of the sport. As a result, a higher percentage of EIC affected dogs are likely to have a collapse episode because they have more of the trigger potential. It is NOT the EIC gene that makes them top performers, it is the genes for drive and intensity, etc. Those genes are also often a trigger for an EIC episode. With the EIC test, breeders can focus on pooling those intensity genes they love AND reduce the chances for producing affected dogs. All the good stuff without the short circuit - now there's an idea worth discussion.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

nimloth said:


> By contrast, most FT lines VALUE the intensity, excitability and focus required at the top level of the sport.


and your basis for this opinion is???

In almost 40 years in field trials I have never ever heard of anyone who chose to breed for "excitability". Statements like this only prove to reinforce the opinion of many here how totally out of touch you are with field trials and field trial dogs. 

Field trial retrievers are bred for competitive ability, a component of that is retrieving desire which has absolutely no relationship to "excitability".


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

EdA said:


> and your basis for this opinion is???
> 
> In almost 40 years in field trials I have never ever heard of anyone who chose to breed for "excitability". Statements like this only prove to reinforce the opinion of many here how totally out of touch you are with field trials and field trial dogs.
> 
> Field trial retrievers are bred for competitive ability, a component of that is retrieving desire which has absolutely no relationship to "excitability".


Smack me with a dead fish! I chose the wrong word to describe that "eagle eyed" stare and quivering intensity I see every time I go to a trial. From my vocabulary, that is excitability - the dog gets very excited about retrieving. If it didn't, the performance might be rather ho-hum. 

What do YOU call that trait??? Give me the "politically correct" word and I will be glad to use it. It is NOT competitive ability... that is a measure of performance, not an innate trait. Perhaps you would prefer competitive drive? In most other breeds, they would call it "prey drive" and associate it with various predatory behaviors - like chasing something and grabbing it with the mouth. Pick a word, EdA and I will be glad to substitute it.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

nimloth said:


> they would call it "prey drive"


since "prey drive" refers to the behavior of the prey not the predator, the term should be predator drive

just use retrieving desire and you will be correct, it does not carry with it any particular personality traits and is present to a greater or lesser extent in all highly successful field trial dogs

better yet confine your authoritative posts about dog breeding to that in which you have expertise

if you won't post about breeding field trial dogs I won't post about breeding conformation dogs since I know as little about the latter as you do the former


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

[QUOTE=nimloth;321778 I chose the wrong word to describe that "eagle eyed" stare 


You certainly did! 
Magic is the youngest dog of any breed ever TDI certified by our regional evaluator, 2 weeks after he was eligable by age. If birds fly over while tracking or something his butt hits the ground, and yes he will stare at the sky that way, but as soon as they pass he will get right back to the job at hand. Yes he will mark the fall of a dumbell going up in the air 2 rings down, with that eagle eyed stare, but he doesn't bounce off the walls over it whyning, barking or anything. He completes the exercise at hand despite the desire to get the retrieve. I don't consider that "eagle eyed stare" a sign of excitability. Oh by the way, these are the actions of a, gasp, "show dog".


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## jrock (Dec 30, 2007)

I was only addressing Field Trial/Hunt Test situations. For example, what if dogs with the EIC trait were better markers, had better eyesight, memory or any of the other traits that make a great FT dog? 
Jon


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

EdA said:


> since "prey drive" refers to the behavior of the prey not the predator, the term should be predator drive


But is isn't. It is called prey drive - the drive for prey. It is called that by dog people all over the world (except it sounds different in German or French) and is a long-used dog term. 



> just use retrieving desire and you will be correct, it does not carry with it any particular personality traits and is present to a greater or lesser extent in all highly successful field trial dogs


Well... then I guess I could get the right connotation if I used the words EXTREME retrieving desire. My pups have retrieving desire - but not like some of the FT dogs I have seen. It is an extreme sport and so it seems fitting that it requires dogs with extreme desire. 



> better yet confine your authoritative posts about dog breeding to that in which you have expertise if you won't post about breeding field trial dogs I won't post about breeding conformation dogs since I know as little about the latter as you do the former


Actually, since I started with field trial dogs, and have been breeding for 40 years, I suspect you know a lot less about both :razz:

I will forgive your rude manners if you will accept my correction of the word "excitability" to "extreme desire". Heaven forbid that anyone might consider that a top field trial dog could get "excited" about retrieving  You have taken a thread about one topic and simply used it as a means to nit pick and start a confrontation about something else entirely. 

The point of this whole thread was to emphasize that the very traits - regardless of WHAT you call them - that lend themselves to excellence in the FT game are NOT related to the EIC gene. They MAY be related to an increased level of clinical symptoms, but the gene itself is present in all sort of dogs with all sorts of personalities and capabilities - including couch potato slugs.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

jrock said:


> I was only addressing Field Trial/Hunt Test situations. For example, what if dogs with the EIC trait were better markers, had better eyesight, memory or any of the other traits that make a great FT dog?
> Jon



The problem is, these "qualities" are subjective. Maybe wonderdog A marks better TODAY then phenom B, but tomorrow is different. Different setups, different days etc. Maybe some day, they will find the "gene" for marking (or other traits) and it won't be subjective.

The second thing is, that this is judged kind of on the "Bell Curve".......great markers on any given day, are great because of what other dogs have failed to do. 

Remove the top of the scale and another "top" forms. 

So say 100% of the Nat'l winners throw something you want to avoid so we as a community do not breed to them. Guess what? There are still going to be dogs winning Nat'ls. They now become the "best of the best".

WRL


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

jrock said:


> I was only addressing Field Trial/Hunt Test situations. For example, what if dogs with the EIC trait were better markers, had better eyesight, memory or any of the other traits that make a great FT dog?
> Jon


Statistically, 40% of those excellent markers will likely carry one or two copies of the gene... 60% will not. There is no medical or logical reason to entertain your hypothesis. A gene that interrupts neuromuscular activity has nothing to do with eyesight or any of the other things you mentioned. You might as well say that being black makes a dog better at all those traits. Oh.... heck..... I forgot, some people DO say that    :wink:


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

nimloth said:


> Statistically, 40% of those excellent markers will likely carry one or two copies of the gene... 60% will not. There is no medical or logical reason to entertain your hypothesis. A gene that interrupts neuromuscular activity has nothing to do with eyesight or any of the other things you mentioned. You might as well say that being black makes a dog better at all those traits. Oh.... heck..... I forgot, some people DO say that    :wink:


Not true, nobody really understands gene expression, how one gene interacts with another, well enough to tie it all together YET but we do know that certain gene expression can be triggered by other genes and/or gene markers.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

nimloth said:


> A gene that interrupts neuromuscular activity


No mechanism of collapse has yet been identified, a neuromuscular malfunction has been hypothesized but not proved. The collapse episode may well be metabolic or cardiovascular.


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

jrock said:


> Here is a crazy twist to think about. What would people think about selecting against EIC if it were to come out that 85+% of NFC's, NAFC's, high point dogs were EIC carriers.(I am not saying I believe this is true) If the statistics hold up that only 40% of FT dogs are affected or carriers, that would mean that this smaller population is more likely to be outstanding than the more common EIC clear. If I were to see this, I would begin to wonder if the EIC gene was linked to some other trait that made these dogs incredible performance dogs. I think we need to really be careful in how we progress with the information we have. What does everyone else think?
> Jon


If EIC were at that rate in those dogs it would be because of a couple prominent sires that are the sires or grandsires of these great performers not because of any link between "performance traits" and the EIC gene. Instead of EIC as the carried trait, insert the trait "big ears" or "vocal" into your hypothetical and you have the same decision. 

When bred to a clear dog, half the offspring of a carrier will be clear. Selection for those dogs will reduce EIC over the next few generations (if that is your goal).


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

nimloth said:


> .
> Actually, since I started with field trial dogs, and have been breeding for 40 years, I suspect you know a lot less about both :razz:


Then you must have a distinguished record as a breeder of field trial retrievers, just how many field trial titled Labradors have bred as you compiled all that knowledge about breeding field trial dogs...................;-)


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

EdA said:


> Then you must have a distinguished record as a breeder of field trial retrievers, just how many field trial titled Labradors have bred as you compiled all that knowledge about breeding field trial dogs...................;-)


 
 thanks I needed that


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

EdA said:


> Then you must have a distinguished record as a breeder of field trial retrievers, just how many field trial titled Labradors have bred as you compiled all that knowledge about breeding field trial dogs...................;-)


First liar never has a chance, EdA, so you get to go first. How many have you bred??


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

nimloth said:


> First liar never has a chance, EdA, so you get to go first. How many have you bred??


You're joking right or maybe you're confirming your ignorance of the field trial community and it's history. 
Lyle


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Lyle Harne said:


> You're joking right or maybe you're confirming your ignorance of the field trial community and it's history.
> Lyle


SHHHHSSHH, I'm popping popcorn and waiting for this one. Don't spoil the fun!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

nimloth said:


> First liar never has a chance, EdA, so you get to go first. How many have you bred??


This should be interesting. Where is the popcorn?;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Lyle Harne said:


> You're joking right or maybe you're confirming your ignorance of the field trial community and it's history.
> Lyle


No kidding-anyone want to take a poll on getting a big fish ready!


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

Let's see in no particular and forgive me for those I might forget but in the last 40 years:
Trumarc - Judy and Ed Aycock
Candlewood - Mary Howley
Trieven - Val and Jay Walker
Westwind - Albert Uhale
Bigstone - Bill Rook


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

I'm sorry! I'm so naive.
Lyle


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

diet coke all over my laptop! I can't stop laughing. This thread is getting very amusing.


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

Lyle Harne said:


> You're joking right or maybe you're confirming your ignorance of the field trial community and it's history.
> Lyle


Yeppers.... I have no idea who EdA is. I know what EDTA is and ED, but when people do not use their full name, it is hard to know who they are. If I knew his/her actual name, I might be overwhelmed by its importance to the sport. We are all ignorant about different things - right now I am ignorant about who EdA is.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

This is classic...pass the popcorn...lol


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

nimloth said:


> Yeppers.... I have no idea who EdA is. I know what EDTA is and ED, but when people do not use their full name, it is hard to know who they are. If I knew his/her actual name, I might be overwhelmed by its importance to the sport. We are all ignorant about different things - right now I am ignorant about who EdA is.


Do a google search on Trumarc.

Or better yet, go to gooddoginfo and search on Trumarc.


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

nimloth said:


> Yeppers.... I have no idea who EdA is. I know what EDTA is and ED, but when people do not use their full name, it is hard to know who they are. If I knew his/her actual name, I might be overwhelmed by its importance to the sport. We are all ignorant about different things - right now I am ignorant about who EdA is.


Maureen, you need to read all the posts since I answered your question giving you Ed's full name. If that didn't make light bulbs go off then you know nothing of the history of field trials.
Lyle


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Inquiring minds want to know the numbers in this pi$$ing contest...any takers?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Lets see, Honcho, Cody and Percy produced like 184 field champions alone.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Lyle Harne said:


> you're confirming your ignorance of the field trial community and it's history.
> Lyle


Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

nimloth said:


> First liar never has a chance, EdA, so you get to go first. How many have you bred??


as owner of sire, dam, or both???


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

This is the equivalent of being placed in stocks in the public square. If Maureen responds with nothing else than a humble apology then maybe the whipping post would be more appropriate.
Lyle


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

nimloth said:


> Yeppers.... I have no idea who EdA is. I know what EDTA is and ED, but when people do not use their full name, it is hard to know who they are. If I knew his/her actual name, I might be overwhelmed by its importance to the sport. We are all ignorant about different things - right now I am ignorant about who EdA is.


Classic lesson #1: Know who your audience is before opening mouth! 

Maureen: What kennel name did you breed your field trial labs under? What sires did you use.....? Otherwise, I'm sure you would have heard of Dr. Ed. Or maybe you were busy watching Mr. Ed?


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

geesh i am out of pop corn ya'll hold on i'll be right back


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

Lyle Harne said:


> Maureen, you need to read all the posts since I answered your question giving you Ed's full name. If that didn't make light bulbs go off then you know nothing of the history of field trials.
> Lyle


Lyle... I just asked a simple question. Nobody has really answered it even now. All I wanted to know is the real name of EdA. Teasing and hinting and acting like high school pranksters doesn't answer the question. A simple "EdA is Edward S. Aycock" would have been the simplest thing to say. Thanks to Buzz for being the only helpful adult in the thread. 

If that is the identity of EdA (who still has not said so himself), then I defer to the experience and expertise of the many years of success under the Trumarc name. I never had the opportunity to meet Mr. Aycock, but have met Judy on several occasions some many years ago. In fact, I think the Aycocks have been breeding even longer than I, so I also defer to my "seniors" as well. I was raised to respect my elders (a concept that seems to be missing in education these days). 

I agree that the experience of breeding top field contenders of EdA (if that is Mr. Aycock) is extensive and he would certainly know what is needed to produce a field winner. I can't believe, however, he would suggest that EIC is one of those required traits. His disagreement with me was not on the issue of EIC, but on simple terminology. I agreed to not refer to "prey drive" as "excitability", so I don't see that we have any further issues with each other. Frankly, I don't know why he wanted to pick a disagreement over something so trivial in the first place, but that is his option. I do apologize if my use of the term excitability was out of order on this forum. It is one that the researchers have used a lot in their explanations, so I thought it was common in the discussions of EIC. As I said earlier, smack me with a dead fish!

As to "prey drive" rather than "preditor drive", here is a link -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prey_drive


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Classic lesson #1: Know who your audience is before opening mouth!
> 
> Maureen: What kennel name did you breed your field trial labs under? What sires did you use.....? Otherwise, I'm sure you would have heard of Dr. Ed. Or maybe you were busy watching Mr. Ed?


There went my tea!! Susan your hysterical!!

Angie


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

nimloth said:


> First liar never has a chance, EdA, so you get to go first. How many have you bred??


I really do want to know how many champions the two experts have bred so let's not change the subject...lets get to the facts and quit changing the subject...a total of 80 years is a long time...so how many is it???


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

This thread should be called, How to; Open mouth, insert foot.  

Maureen has a hard time understanding that while she may be a big fish in the conformation pond, those that swim with the big dogs have little respect for her often stated opinions on FT s.

Also, I object to another word she throws around, "extreme"

While she may consider highly intelligent, trainable, talented dogs extreme, many of us would consider them "excellent", and the ultimate in what a great dog can be.

Thanks for the fun on a hot Sunday, waiting to go train some of my extreme dogs later.

p. s. EdA is indeed none other than Ed Aycock, smack you with a dead fish! 

Susan, I liked Mr. Ed!!


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## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

jrock said:


> Here is a crazy twist to think about. What would people think about selecting against EIC if it were to come out that 85+% of NFC's, NAFC's, high point dogs were EIC carriers.(I am not saying I believe this is true) If the statistics hold up that only 40% of FT dogs are affected or carriers, that would mean that this smaller population is more likely to be outstanding than the more common EIC clear. If I were to see this, I would begin to wonder if the EIC gene was linked to some other trait that made these dogs incredible performance dogs. I think we need to really be careful in how we progress with the information we have. What does everyone else think?
> Jon


The math is probably working against you here. You have a mendelian trait,the EIC gene, which is onegene on one chromosome arm of a dog's 39 chromosomes. Most the things that dog breeders want are quantitative - that means many, many genes of mostly small effect distributed over the geneme. You have a 38/39 chance that a given gene is unlinked right off the bat. Also there is a good bit of scrambling up the genome due to recombination events. The odds are against you.

It is wise to be cautious about what you do with respect to breeding, but assuming a a pleiotrophic effect puts you out on a limb a bit. Most things are NOT mendelian that matter in a performance animal.


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

nimloth said:


> First liar never has a chance, EdA, so you get to go first. How many have you bred??


I KNOW this has been addressed but I gotta' post anyway:

My first thought was: "OMG! No she didn't..."

My second thought was from Sun Tzu. Roughly it was this: "In all manner of battles, if you do not know the opposition, you are doomed to defeat" to which I further added: in this case this won't be a defeat or even an ambush. This is just going to be a good, old fashion, solid ass kicking.

I think I'll go back and watch the ass kicking now...

Vouyeristic Regards,

Joe S.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

nimloth said:


> I never had the opportunity to meet Mr. Aycock,


Actually, for the record, it's *Dr.* Aycock. 




Hey Charlotte- I always really liked Mr. Ed, too. What an incredible talking horse! 

Wilburrrrrr regards-


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

nimloth said:


> Yeppers.... I have no idea who EdA is. I know what EDTA is and ED, but when people do not use their full name, it is hard to know who they are. If I knew his/her actual name, I might be overwhelmed by its importance to the sport. We are all ignorant about different things - right now I am ignorant about who EdA is.


Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever. My guess is you will get your cure about 2 minutes after you answer his question.

In the Greatest Sports Movie of All Time: The Sandlot, the kid hit an autographed Babe Ruth baseball into a yard protected by a big dog. James Earl Jones played the dogs owner. When the kids finally went to him for help he initally said he thought the kids were in trouble. When he found out exactly what happened he said: "I take that back. You're not in trouble, you're dead where you stand." Check your GPS...you're standing in the same spot.

You Have Allowed Your Alligator Mouth To Write A Check Your Humming Bird Ass Can't Cash Regards,

Joe S.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

This is just a question, did the Trumarc Kennel name go with Judy or Dr Ed?

WRL


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

EdA said:


> as owner of sire, dam, or both???


Come on Ed, let's here it... How many?


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

nimloth said:


> Lyle... I just asked a simple question. Nobody has really answered it even now. All I wanted to know is the real name of EdA. Teasing and hinting and acting like high school pranksters doesn't answer the question. A simple "EdA is Edward S. Aycock" would have been the simplest thing to say. Thanks to Buzz for being the only helpful adult in the thread.


So, how many Field Champions have you bred? If the question isn't answered on this thread it is quite possible someone will ask you the question on every post you make no matter the thread subject. You could clear it up right now...zero is an acceptable number, by the way.



nimloth said:


> If that is the identity of EdA (who still has not said so himself), then I defer to the experience and expertise of the many years of success under the Trumarc name. I never had the opportunity to meet Mr. Aycock, but have met Judy on several occasions some many years ago. In fact, I think the Aycocks have been breeding even longer than I, so I also defer to my "seniors" as well. I was raised to respect my elders (a concept that seems to be missing in education these days).


Part of the respect lesson is the ability to say "I'm sorry. I made a mistake." Sometimes it was taught as a scenairo. In this case, this might be the scenario: 

You get into a debate with someone you really don't know in a place where you are rather new. You become somewhat rude and abrasive. You, without full command of the facts or seemingly a basic grounding in the subject, suggest the person you are debating is a liar. You later come to find out that the individual is one of the most respected members of the elite upper echelon of a select group. You further find out that his dogs genes reside in almost every working dog of that breed in the country. You research also points out that even those that don't like him show him respect because he has worked with some of the greatest dogs in the history of field trials. So after all this, the teacher would look at someone in the class and say, for example, "Ms. Nimloth, what would you do if you found yourself in this situation? Remember, Ms. Nimloth, silence isn't always golden, sometimes it is just plain yellow."



nimloth said:


> I agree that the experience of breeding top field contenders of EdA (if that is Mr. Aycock) is extensive and he would certainly know what is needed to produce a field winner. I can't believe, however, he would suggest that EIC is one of those required traits.


It is, he does and he never suggested it in the least. How were your reading comprehenison skills in school, by the way?



nimloth said:


> As to "prey drive" rather than "preditor drive", here is a link -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prey_drive


Look, wikipedia.org IS NOT a scholarly source. It doesn't count.

Just trying to be helpful...it's my nature, you know.

Helpful Regards,

Helpy Helperson


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

Lyle Harne said:


> Let's see in no particular and forgive me for those I might forget but in the last 40 years:
> Trumarc - Judy and Ed Aycock
> Candlewood - Mary Howley
> Trieven - Val and Jay Walker
> ...


Maureen,
The post 3 posts before you asked who EDA was. I guess I expected that you'd put 2 and 2 together. 
Lyle


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

cakaiser said:


> This thread should be called, How to; Open mouth, insert foot.
> 
> Maureen has a hard time understanding that while she may be a big fish in the conformation pond, )
> 
> ...


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

WRL said:


> This is just a question, did the Trumarc Kennel name go with Judy or Dr Ed?
> 
> WRL



Legally I haven’t a clue but indelibly both Ed and Judy will always be associated with the Trumarc Kennel name.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

luvmylabs23139 said:


> [
> 
> 
> There goes my beverage all over the laptop again. Nimloft in a pedigree doesn't exactly jump out at you and say "Gotta have" in the show world.


Oh, ok, please excuse my ignorance on all things confirmation!!  Thought she wrote a book or something.

Learn something new all the time.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Oh, ok, please excuse my ignorance on all things confirmation!!  Thought she wrote a book or something.
> 
> Learn something new all the time.


Its CONFORMTION!!! Geeze,,, when will you people ever learn. LOL

Angie


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

WRL said:


> This is just a question, did the Trumarc Kennel name go with Judy or Dr Ed?
> 
> WRL


TrumarcLabradors.org, .com., and .net, and Trumarc.com., .net, and .org are registered domain names that Ed owns but would gladly give to Judy if she wanted them...... ;-)....for all who care Ed and Judy still train together and remain friends on very good terms

Also for those who care about our dogs (including Maureen I assume):

Sires:
NFC-AFC San Joaquin Honcho - titled offspring 76 including 1 NFC and 2 NAFC and 1 National Derby Champion

NAFC-FC Trumarc's Zip Code - titled offspring 62, including 1 NFC and 1 NAFC 

FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit - titled offspring 36 including 1 NFC and 1 National Derby Champion

FC-AFC Trumarc's Ziparoo - titled offspring 18 with limited breeding Rudy tragically died of complications of gastric dilatation volvulus at 6 1/2 

FC-AFC Trumarc's Chubby Mac - titled offspring 7 with very limited breeding, Chubby tragically died at 4 1/2 from what was probably EIC

Interestingly Honcho was 5 years older than Cody and 7 years older than Percy so they were in essence in competition for females for a good portion of their lives. They were are natural breedings, no frozen semen, no fresh chilled, all the stud dogs met the bitches personally. 

Dams:
Bit Of Babe - titiled offspring 1

AFC Candlewood's Ms Costalot - titled offspring 14

L'il Ms Hot Pursuit - titled offspring 3

FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine - titled offspring 3, 2 others with All-Age wins and many more on the way (at least Ed, Doug Grimes, Buzz, Judy, Tony Snow, Danny Martin, Dan Blevins, John & Suzanne Caire, Bob & Ann Heise, Brady Oman, and Ed again) all hope

Oh, and BTW, Judy bred, trained, owned, and sold one of the last Dual Champion Labradors FC-AFC Trumarc's Triple Threat (Punt)

Thanks Maureen, you made our day...... and you need not be so formal and refer to me as "Mr. Aycock", my friends call me Ed or Dr. Ed (in case you didn't know I am a DVM), and my training buddies just call me Doc...

And BTW if I got on a conformation Labrador site AND USED MY REAL NAME no one would know who I was, just as when you used your real name here I had/have no idea who you are.

I would like to ask you one question however, given your 40 years with conformation Labradors, when was the decision made to transform an athletic sporting dog into something that looks like it belongs in the Working Group????????

Hoping Maureen Upholds Her End Of The Bargain Regards.........


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Angie B said:


> Its CONFORMTION!!! Geeze,,, when will you people ever learn. LOL
> 
> Angie


Oh, pooh, think I spelled it right all the other times!! :razz:


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

EdA said:


> TrumarcLabradors.org, .com., and .net, and Trumarc.com., .net, and .org are registered domain names that Ed owns but would gladly give to Judy if she wanted them...... ;-)....for all who care Ed and Judy still train together and remain friends on very good terms
> 
> .........



Way cool,......thanks.

WRL


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Very cool Ed, thanks. All my dogs have the great Honcho somewhere back there.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

baaahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha
that was sooooo good. Thanks Ed


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## cgoeson (Jan 22, 2008)

Dr. Ed rules both the retriever world and the smackdown!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> Hoping Maureen Upholds Her End Of The Bargain Regards.........


I hope so. We've "got er on the ropes"... 

She maybe a "pain in the neck, know it all, no nothing", but she has given us a chance once again to dole out, some much needed. "old fashion, RTF whoop a$$".

When was the last time we had so much fun???

Angie


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

cgoeson said:


> Dr. Ed rules both the retriever world and the smackdown!




Ok…The Trumarc brand is legendary and NO ONE can that away from Ed…but come on…this chick verbally STEPPED into a straight right and Ed followed through. 

When I read her calling out Ed on his abilities I was like.... DOH!!!!!!


How could anyone in the FT game from Wichita Kansas not know the Trumarc name? As a lowly hunter in Oklahoma I knew the Trumarc name years ago.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

.........and I would imagine the titled offspring do not count HT titles. Not enough bandwidth to list those too.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Has anyone noticed that Maureen has been very quiet today? At the hospital having a foot-ectomy? I hope she has enough class to apologize to Dr. Ed. And I'm not sure that Mr. Ed would want to be confused as a famous vet who has bred some of the most influential labs in field trial history... being a talking horse is enough for him, I imagine.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Has anyone noticed that Maureen has been very quiet today? At the hospital having a foot-ectomy? I hope she has enough class to apologize to Dr. Ed. And I'm not sure that Mr. Ed would want to be confused as a famous vet who has bred some of the most influential labs in field trial history... being a talking horse is enough for him, I imagine.


nimloth 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 130 
Last Post August 17 2008


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## nimloth (Jul 10, 2008)

I have been working this afternoon and evening (like real people) and just got a chance to drop in. I realized after I posted that I addressed DR. Aycock as Mr. - sorry for the slight. I had forgotten that, but, as I mentioned, I never met him, only Judy. I really said everything else I had to say on the topic in my previous post. I defer to his experience and expertise when it comes to FT dogs. I still have not seen him post that he feels EIC is a gene that is important for FT performance - which was the topic of my initial post. Maybe I missed it in the 5 pages of sophomoric nonsense


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

This is, by far, the Thread Of The Year! Truly outstanding use of hijacking.

Nice appology Nimloth......oh...uh.....nevermind.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

nimloth said:


> Actually, since I started with field trial dogs, and have been breeding for 40 years, I suspect you know a lot less about both :razz:


The joke is on me! I actually looked up your dogs' pedigrees on GoodDogInfo to see which FT dogs were in your dogs' pedigrees....
I can't believe I fell for that one!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

nimloth said:


> I still have not seen him post that he feels EIC is a gene that is important for FT performance - which was the topic of my initial post.


I don't think anyone can make a statement one way or the other. At some point we'll have all the statistics we care to see - hopefully...


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” Mark Twain


Thanks Maureen I needed a good laugh today


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

nimloth,

I find your presence on this site and your attitude with people that know what they are saying very curious. Not sure what you are trying to prove.

Do you have experience breeding dogs for intelligence, athletic ability, stamina, trainability or any of the many abilities needed to be an FC, AFC or any performance dog?

It's clear from the dogs on your website your breeding experience has nothing to do with a dog capable of performing in the field or in water as you state. 

Your question was answered by Achiro & Dr Ed on page 2, you just didn't accept it or understand it.


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

Mr. does not equal Dr. but it was an honest mistake. Let's give it a rest since the question was answered on page 2.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

nimloth said:


> I have been working this afternoon and evening (like real people) and just got a chance to drop in. I realized after I posted that I addressed DR. Aycock as Mr. - sorry for the slight. I had forgotten that, but, as I mentioned, I never met him, only Judy. I really said everything else I had to say on the topic in my previous post. I defer to his experience and expertise when it comes to FT dogs. I still have not seen him post that he feels EIC is a gene that is important for FT performance - which was the topic of my initial post. Maybe I missed it in the 5 pages of sophomoric nonsense


You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wow.

This thread was reported to RTF moderators. There was concern early-on that Ed Aycock may be run off of RTF after being accused of lying.

I've read through the whole thread.

Nimloth: This started off with jrock wanting to have a simple discussion about some ideas. You immediately put a personal spin on it by essentially attacking jrock's logic. From there, it switched to Ed Aycock, where you told him that if he picked a replacement phrase, you would gladly use it. But instead of gladly using it, you called Ed Aycock rude and chose to argue the phrase further. (all before the concerns of Ed being called a liar were addressed to RTF mods)

RTF'ers: Thanks for your efforts in sticking up for Dr. Ed, a guy who has shared his expertise and helped us all out, many times over the years. Please remember to keep it fair and unattacking as you "defend" one of your own.

Dr. Ed, I trust you will not allow this to run you off as one concerned PM'er feared!

Maureen, it appears you've acknowledged all that you're going to. I believe you have some credentials around Field Trial performance and breedings that you've produced that should be posted. Dr. Ed has stated his credentials first, as you've requested.

How about you state those credentials, we'll close the chapter on this debate, and we can get back to jrock's original idea for discussion?

Thanks,

Chris


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Its CONFORMTION!!! Geeze,,, when will you people ever learn. LOL
> 
> Angie


Angie, it's _CONFORMATION_ ;-);-) just yanking your chain! Sorry I couldn't resist. Aren't typo's heck?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

nimloth said:


> I have been working this afternoon and evening *(like real people)* and just got a chance to drop in. I realized after I posted that I addressed DR. Aycock as Mr. - sorry for the slight. I had forgotten that, but, as I mentioned, I never met him, only Judy. I really said everything else I had to say on the topic in my previous post. I defer to his experience and expertise when it comes to FT dogs. I still have not seen him post that he feels EIC is a gene that is important for FT performance - which was the topic of my initial post. *Maybe I missed it in the 5 pages of sophomoric nonsense *


I don’t know you but you don’t seem very nice or humble in any way. You seem to be either insinuating that we A) don’t work or B) we are not real people. I have worked 48 hours since Saturday, I just happen to have the freedoms to check in here form time to time.
Real working person regards


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Angie, it's _CONFORMATION_ ;-);-) just yanking your chain! Sorry I couldn't resist. Aren't typo's heck?


Touch'e!!! I walked into that one!!!

Angie


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

This is a very interesting thread. There are many wannabe’s in the dual purpose Labrador breed. Many breeders claim that is their goal. Very few have succeeded. When I started my interest in field trials forty years ago, I was aware of a kennel in Wisconsin called Shamrock Acres. Sally would enter dogs in sanctioned trials. She would always come to the Madison field trial and observe what it takes to have a competitive field trial dog. For many years Sally opened her house the Thursday night before the field trial and had an open house for contestants. Her record is impeccable. She produced over 500 champions, one national field trial champion, two dual champions, and many field champions and amateur field champions, plus over 100 dogs with hunting test titles. 

I do have field champion out of one of Ed’s stud dogs. In fact I remember the first time I met Judy was training here in Wisconsin. She had a dog called Honcho at the time that was completely unknown to me. Honcho got his first open win here in Wisconsin. The only thing I remember about our training sessions was that we always took a break at noon hour for lunch. Judy declined our offer to stay with us for lunch, but said she had yard work to do with some young dogs and went off for the noon hour. I only wish I was smart enough to go and watch her yard work. 

I’ve judged AKC trials for 35 years. I have a pretty good eye for some stylish dogs that are impeccable markers and handle to the highest levels. Now I will answer the original question. If I would list the top 50 stud dogs and producing bitches and dogs that have caught my eye in the last ten years, I would wager to bet that more than 40% of these dogs are carrying one mutated EIC gene. 

I’ve had, in the past, dogs with epilepsy, CNM, and currently I have a dog with EIC. So I’m pretty aware of some problems that can pop up in our breed. I do not breed dogs. I have occasionally bred a few litters in the past 40 years. I currently have one of my breedings. I’ve won an open all-age trial with the dog with me handling and me being the trainer. He is clear of CNM and EIC—hips OFA excellent. Eyes cerfed and elbows normal. Besides he is a handsome dog and I’ve never bred him. 

Jack


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Thank you Chris. 
I think most of us know the difference between tactfully wording a response and posting a response meant to be inflammatory.

Now to get back to jrock's question. I have personally trained with two dogs on a daily basis whose first actual EIC _collapse_ was lethal, one of which I was present for and observed from several feet away. They were out of the same national FC sire and there was reportedly a littermate of one that also met that same demise. One was actually out of the stated age range with the first episode and had previously run multiple trials. We observed that both had a very similar training attitude-very focused in training, yet very much in control, and extremely good markers. Yes, you would admire them as being outstanding field trial dogs. Since the majority of dogs that have episodes recover in 20 minutes, and these dogs are not able to recover, there may be a component that relates to their intensity that accelerates the collapse into arrhythmia (?) and death because they go in minutes. I don't think there is any point in trying to find a definate genetic link, but think of it in terms that we may find out that certain personality types *may* end up being more associated with extreme physiologic conditions (such as the type A personality type associated with heart diseaseas) if they have 2 copies of the mutated gene for EIC. The solution is test to not produce affecteds and the traits we desire will still be there.


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think most of us know the difference between tactfully wording a response and posting a response meant to be inflammatory.


...and sometimes, in some situations, we even care...but then again, sometimes we find ourselves in a position where we don't care so much. 

It's Not That I'm Ambivalent It's Just More Like I Don't Care Regards,

Joe S.


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## jrock (Dec 30, 2007)

I have checked out some of the pedigree's of dogs that have been reported by their owners either here or elsewhere as being affected. I have seen NFC's and other very well known dogs listed as parents. That is why I posted the original hypothesis. I know most of the discussion around EIC is based on simple Mendelian genetics. We don't know much about the non EIC gene that is found at that locus on the chromosome. What if being heterozygous for the gene at that site (not having the same gene) makes that dog more likely to be a great FT dog? Could it be that there is incomplete penetrance of the EIC gene in this case and that we are not looking at a simple recessive/dominant trait?. Look at the reports of a few FT dogs that have reportedly been tested and determined to be affected with no history of collapse.


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## okvet (Jun 20, 2006)

> The solution is test to not produce affecteds and the traits we desire will still be there.


I agree 100% but unfortunately there are many others who don't. Some believe that in time we can completely eradicate this gene out of the breeding pool but realistically that will never happen.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Dr. Ed, I trust you will not allow this to run you off as one concerned PM'er feared!


I appreciate the concern but my skin is far too thick to have someone like Maureen insult me, attemept to discredit my knowledge of field trial Labradors, and make me go away.

Additionally I do appreciate my friends who jumped in on my behalf. We are much like a family here, we might bicker and squabble among ourselves but when threated from the outside we become a very close knit group.

I actually rather enjoyed the mental jousting with Maureen and she took the bait almost as if it had been orchestrated.

As to jrock's initial post, I would never dismiss such a theory, indeed we do not know enough about genetics to know if high levels of accomplishment might be linked to any gene, including CNM and EIC.

Thank You Maureen for reminding why I enjoy this place so much.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Darn! 

I was hoping to get credentials from both sides of the "retriever pond" so that when I look for my next dog, I could really have some footwork done and it would be easier to find that elusive dual champion......


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

jrock said:


> ...... We don't know much about the non EIC gene that is found at that locus on the chromosome. What if being heterozygous for the gene at that site (not having the same gene) makes that dog more likely to be a great FT dog? .....


The is an interesting theory and question but as you probably know, correlation does not necessarily mean causation and there is no quantitative analysis of your hypothesis. 
Here is what they say about the gene on the U of M website:


> The DNA of several candidate genes in this small chromosomal region that are involved in muscle and nerve metabolism and function was sequenced, and a mutation in one gene that is very strongly associated with EIC was identified. This is a compelling candidate causal mutation for EIC due to the critical role of the protein encoded by this “EIC gene” in synaptic communication between nerves in the central nervous system.


Is it possible, sure, but it just seems highly unlikely to me that being heterozygous for EIC gives a dog some sort of competitive advantage. If that were the case, I think EIC would have been a great problem years ago, not just now. Also, among littermates, has anyone noticed that the carriers are more likely to perform better than clear littermates? The most likely cause of these carriers being great performers is that they inherited that gene from a parent along with all the the other genes from both parents that contributed to making a great dog. EIC is just one gene and there are just so many genes that influence the performance traits it seems very unlikely.


jrock said:


> ...... Could it be that there is incomplete penetrance of the EIC gene in this case and that we are not looking at a simple recessive/dominant trait?. Look at the reports of a few FT dogs that have reportedly been tested and determined to be affected with no history of collapse.


The researchers have presumably done breeding studies that confirm the mode of inheritance and they have concluded that it is a simple autosomal recessive. It is no surprise that there are varying levels of expression. To me, if a dog has two EIC genes it means that the dog is wired with the EIC switch "on". Actually turning the light bulb on is dependent upon other switches in the circuit. Once those switches get turned on, the color and intensity of the light are also dependent upon other components in the circuit. This is not uncommon. Inheritance of the coat color yellow is a good example. The color yellow is expressed in many different shades. The dog has both yellow genes but there are lots of other genes that modify the expression of the dog's final color.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Dr. ED, I don't care what Shayne says about you; you are the man!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Guys why would you doubt her credibility? This woman has some fine Juniors….

 Owner: 
 *Maureen Sullivan Gamble*


Event Date
Event
Registered Name
Handler
Stake
06/05/2005
Jayhawk Retriever Club AKC Hunting Test
Mariah's Yellow Rose O Kansas
James Lenz
Junior
04/08/2006
Sunflower Retriever Club AKC Hunting Test
Mariah's Yellow Rose O Kansas
James Lenz
Junior
04/09/2006
Sunflower Retriever Club AKC Hunting Test
Mariah's Yellow Rose O Kansas
James Lenz
Junior
06/03/2006
Jayhawk Retriever Club AKC Hunting Test
Mariah's Yellow Rose O Kansas
James Lenz
Junior
06/04/2006
Jayhawk Retriever Club AKC Hunting Test
Mariah's Yellow Rose O Kansas
James Lenz
Junior


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## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

tshuntin said:


> Dr. ED, I don't care what Shayne says about you; you are the man!


Travis, please.....you are going to pump his ego up so much that he will feel like he can start charging us $100 for the EIC blood draw. At least wait until after he has drawn my dogs blood!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mike Noel said:


> Travis, please.....you are going to pump his ego up so much that he will feel like he can start charging us $100 for the EIC blood draw. At least wait until after he has drawn my dogs blood!


I like the way you think Michael, maybe you should become my business manager...;-)


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## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

Just want you to be able to pay for your concert t-shirt collection.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

All I want to know is can I start marketing my new pup with a bunch of Trumarc and other NAFC, NFC, FC, and AFCs as an "Extreme Labrador", If people can get $1500 for a doodle an XLab should be worth $5000 at least.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

EdA said:


> TrumarcLabradors.org, .com., and .net, and Trumarc.com., .net, and .org are registered domain names that Ed owns but would gladly give to Judy if she wanted them...... ;-)....for all who care Ed and Judy still train together and remain friends on very good terms
> 
> Also for those who care about our dogs (including Maureen I assume):
> 
> ...



........And the good Doctor lands a HAY MAKER from the corner



I think this sound bit is fitting


http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/play/port_lofi.cfm/sound_iid.66332


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Guys why would you doubt her credibility? This woman has some fine Juniors….
> 
> Owner:
> *Maureen Sullivan Gamble*
> ...


Yes,,, but did that one lonely dog pass??? 

Angie


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

How did I miss this thread? All those post and views!

OK, I'm not going to read it all but, has Ed come clean about being an 
aTm Aggie?


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

holy crap how many passes does it take to get a jh title

(i am a hrc elitist and don't know much )


j/k about being elite but i have not run a jr test by my hrch's have run masters)


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

This thread is so distasteful.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> OK, I'm not going to read it all


if you don't read all of it you will not understand any of it, but since you're shopping for a show dog puppy to send to Smith perhaps you should avoid reading any of it......

I proudly received the DVM degree from The College Of Veterinary Medicine Texas A&M University in August 1969


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

EdA said:


> if you don't read all of it you will not understand any of it, but since you're shopping for a show dog puppy to send to Smith perhaps you should avoid reading any of it......
> 
> I proudly received the DVM degree from The College Of Veterinary Medicine Texas A&M University in August 1969


I decided to send Smith my Shaq pup when that litter happens. The Bench female might be too much for him to handle. She will probably go to Ed Thibodeaux with the instructions to go get a MH, then a Show handler for CH. 

Aggies better watchout for that game in September with the Ragin Cajuns!:razz:


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## LabLady101 (Mar 17, 2006)

Aussie said:


> This thread is so distasteful.


I think you summed up my feelings as well...<insert shaking head emoticon>


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