# Tail curl



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

How much curl should a young pups tail have? Does it lessen as the tail grows? Got a buddy with a pup that his tail curls back toward his back a good bit, but the pup is just 8 weeks. I don't remember if mine have ever done that or not. Thanks


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

standard is no tail curve!! Keeps you off the bench but certainly not out of the field.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Thats what I thought, he's def no mixed breed. Comes from a very good breeding of titled parents, not much curl just a little.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

I believe its called gay tail. Don't be confused at what /paul goes to the bars for.. Which is also gay tail. 
This is not uncommon to see in field dogs.


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## RedstarKennels (Dec 22, 2007)

As I recall Candlewood's Mad Mouse had quite a curl in his tail. I had a son of his back in the late 70's..and he had it also.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Gay tails on Labs drive me nuts as is not only ugly but, not very Lab like. However, in FT bred dogs, gay tails have become the standard. I have 4 FT bred Labs and the only one that has a correct Lab tail in my yellow female.

Several good Lab traits both physical and mental have gone by the wayside by breeders that do not take the total dog into consideration when selecting a breeding pair and are only concerned with winning ribbons.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Franco said:


> Gay tails on Labs drive me nuts as is not only ugly but, not very Lab like. However, in FT bred dogs, gay tails have become the standard. I have 4 FT bred Labs and the only one that has a correct Lab tail in my yellow female.
> 
> Several good Lab traits both physical and mental have gone by the wayside by breeders that do not take the total dog into consideration when selecting a breeding pair and are only concerned with winning ribbons.


Hah, I have almost the opposite point of view. Got a CH on one of my dogs, and was starting to worry that my show-ring activities were starting to corrupt me and make me pay attention to inessential traits, in particular tails. I more or less prayed for redemption....and got it in the form of my "keeper" from last Spring's litter, a very special little pup whose tail, since I chose her, has been more and more and more curl.

Got my priorities back in order.

Amy Dahl


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

afdahl said:


> Hah, I have almost the opposite point of view. Got a CH on one of my dogs, and was starting to worry that my show-ring activities were starting to corrupt me and make me pay attention to inessential traits, in particular tails. I more or less prayed for redemption....and got it in the form of my "keeper" from last Spring's litter, a very special little pup whose tail, since I chose her, has been more and more and more curl.
> 
> Got my priorities back in order.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Goldens have always had curled tails, it is part of what makes them a Golden.

I don't consider any of the traits that define a breed as being "inesstential". Breeds are developed, then defined. Any deviation from the definition is not good for the integrity of the breed.

That's why I hate to read when folks post about "improving the breed". There is no such thing. One either breeds to maintain the breed's integrity or they don't. I'll also add that neither Field nor Show, in general, has done a very good job of maintaining the integrity of the breed.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Franco said:


> Goldens have always had curled tails, it is part of what makes them a Golden.
> 
> I don't consider any of the traits that define a breed as being "inesstential". Breeds are developed, then defined. Any deviation from the definition is not good for the integrity of the breed.
> 
> That's why I hate to read when folks post about "improving the breed". There is no such thing. One either breeds to maintain the breed's integrity or they don't. I'll also add that neither Field nor Show, in general, has done a very good job of maintaining the integrity of the breed.


So, in your mind, would a Lab with a tail curl be a "lesser" dog?

stan b


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

road kill said:


> So, in your mind, would a Lab with a tail curl be a "lesser" dog?
> 
> stan b


It woud be a lesser Lab.

That's because the Lab is suppose to have an otter like tail which is defined in The Standard. Coming off the spine, thick at the base, tapering with little to no feathering. The proper tail is a straight extention of the spine and not carried above the spine.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Franco said:


> It woud be a lesser Lab.
> 
> That's because the Lab is suppose to have an otter like tail which is defined in The Standard. Coming off the spine, thick at the base, tapering with little to no feathering. The proper tail is a straight extention of the spine and not carried above the spine.


When I bought my lab, the breeder asked what I wanted.
I told him, a HT dog and a hunting dog.
I got what I asked for.
He gets the dog games.
And I have been urged to run him in some Derby's next season.
I ran him in some tests this past season, he did OK.
And we have had a pretty decent hunting season, geese, ducks, grouse and pheasants.

He is just a year old.

But he does have a pretty big curl.

Too bad.......


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Franco said:


> Goldens have always had curled tails, it is part of what makes them a Golden.
> 
> .....



Huh??    

http://www.grca.org/history_breed/breed_standard.html

JS


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Curling tails have nothing to do with ability in the field! Some of the most talent FT and hunting dogs I've seen were butt ugly.

Different people have different criteria and questions they ask of any pup breeder they are considering. I like to get it all; breed type, real desire and brains. As well as a calm, quiet Lab that can get the bird no matter how tough. 

Like I said in my first post, I have three Labs FT bred Labs( sired by an NFC, NAFC and FC AFC) with improper tails.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

JS said:


> Huh??
> 
> http://www.grca.org/history_breed/breed_standard.html
> 
> JS


I stand corrected on Goldens. However, the field Goldnes today are Barty types and thier tails definitly have a curl to them.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Franco said:


> Curling tails have nothing to do with ability in the field!


True. Ranger Hines certainly had ability. I always thought his tail was good luck.... so when I picked Ruckus, I didn't hesitate to take the pup I liked. I took the pup with the gay tail because "it always worked for Ranger Hines." 

A friend of mine has a lab that it curls into a "U" over her back - even in the water..... you could use it as a handle to haul her into a boat it's so gay...


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Franco, I have a passion for a working dog that meets it's breed standard both in appearance as well as purpose. I know you do too. I read it in many of your posts. That's why I was a little befuddled by your characterization that a curled tail is what makes a Golden a Golden.



Here is the the Golden standard says about tails:




> Tail -- well set on, thick and muscular at the base, following the natural line of the croup. Tail bones extend to, but not below, the point of hock. *Carried with merry action, level or with some moderate upward curve; never curled over back nor between legs.*


And here is what the Labrador standard says:



> Tail--The tail is a distinguishing feature of the breed. It should be very thick at the base, gradually tapering toward the tip, of medium length, and extending no longer than to the hock. The tail should be free from feathering and clothed thickly all around with the Labrador’s short, dense coat, thus having that peculiar rounded appearance that has been described as the "otter" tail. The tail should follow the topline in repose or when in motion. *It may be carried gaily, but should not curl over the back.* Extremely short tails or long thin tails are serious faults. The tail completes the balance of the Labrador by giving it a flowing line from the top of the head to the tip of the tail. Docking or otherwise altering the length or natural carriage of the tail is a disqualification.


Looks similar to me.

Most dogs we see at a field trial in either breed have faulty tails.

JS


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Franco*
> _Goldens have always had curled tails, it is part of what makes them a Golden.
> 
> .....
> ...


I think he meant goldens should have curlers in their tail


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

On a side note you can take the curl out of a pug or husky or any other curly tailed dog by changing their mindset. Just an extra tib bit to chew on for Thanksgiving

Pete


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Pete said:


> I think he meant goldens should have curlers in their tail



SO???   

I have some of each kind, regards,

JS


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

JS said:


> Franco, I have a passion for a working dog that meets it's breed standard both in appearance as well as purpose. I know you do too. I read it in many of your posts. That's why I was a little befuddled by your characterization that a curled tail is what makes a Golden a Golden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Having owned a few FT bred Goldens I should have known better about thier Standard!

Barty's influence definitly changed the look of today's FT Golden. Prior to his import from the UK, U S Goldens looked like the Standard and not like today's show Goldens. 

What Barty contributed in style; water entry, speed, general athletic ability and field attitude, he lacked in breed type.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Franco said:


> It woud be a lesser Lab.
> 
> That's because the Lab is suppose to have an otter like tail which is defined in The Standard. Coming off the spine, thick at the base, tapering with little to no feathering. The proper tail is a straight extention of the spine and not carried above the spine.


Franco a lesser lab? Wow. I do not mind the average working labrador, with a longer than average tail. Mind a great covered tail seems to go with a good coat overall. 

Brains at the other end. 

Don't you think we working line people have enough genetic health issues of concern than a easier to see poo poo hole, due to high tail carriage?.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I love a nice tail, but it's difficult to produce anymore. The field tails are about 4 inches too long, which often makes them appear more gay because they are longer. What I hate worse is a bad ear set-high small ears and airplane ears. Pick your poison. I would rather have a dog with desire that marks than a nice tail.


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

Franco said:


> Having owned a few FT bred Goldens I should have known better about thier Standard!
> 
> Barty's influence definitly changed the look of today's FT Golden. Prior to his import from the UK, U S Goldens looked like the Standard and not like today's show Goldens.
> 
> What Barty contributed in style; water entry, speed, general athletic ability and field attitude, he lacked in breed type.


Say what?


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

High tail set/carriage usually means higher head when upland hunting. I want them hunting high on both ends most the time,I think is important ( to me at least ) . . . 
Could care less about the curl.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Jim Pickering said:


> Say what?


Just look at any Barty photo, he was small, lightbone and athletic. For that matter, look at his son, NFC Cotton. Cotton was a departure from the more traditional look U S Golden. The popular studs pre-Barty were dogs from like; Tigahoe, Sungold. Even Torch Flynn's Goldens were bigger dogs. 
I had a Barty male and he was small and quick, unlike the well-known U S dogs. Barty influence is as I stated previously. He brought more style into his breedings but lacked Standard type.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

claimsadj said:


> How much curl should a young pups tail have? Does it lessen as the tail grows? Got a buddy with a pup that his tail curls back toward his back a good bit, but the pup is just 8 weeks. I don't remember if mine have ever done that or not. Thanks


My pup's tail was like that. It was really curled and I was very concerned but now at 7 1/2 months it is nice and straight. I observed it straighten out and was very relieved when it did. BTW it's a golden.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Franco said:


> Just look at any Barty photo, he was small, lightbone and athletic. For that matter, look at his son, NFC Cotton. Cotton was a departure from the more traditional look U S Golden. The popular studs pre-Barty were dogs from like; Tigahoe, Sungold. Even Torch Flynn's Goldens were bigger dogs.
> I had a Barty male and he was small and quick, unlike the well-known U S dogs. Barty influence is as I stated previously. He brought more style into his breedings but lacked Standard type.


I've only seen one or two pictures of Barty and they showed him seated. I couldn't see much. However in purchasing my field dogs I have asked for on the smaller side, less hair and athletic. Interestingly they have had a lot of Barty in their genetics.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

I bet there are a lot of us out there who don't have pretty tails but we get the job done.  As far as the tails go, Mary Howley said it all when I questioned a dogs curled tail, "Cleo, they don't pick up birds with their tails'.


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## TerRun (Jan 6, 2008)

Certainly, I'd rather own an ugly dog with an excellent temperment, health, work ethic and talent than one with perfect conformation and no brains or birdiness, and that is why I breed FT and HT lines. However, I still look for the complete dog - watch them at work and in socialization and I look at their tails. Our FT dogs have other conformation faults besides tails, but I think the tail is so strongly referenced in the breed standard, and it is easy to notice one that is right and one that isn't that the tail gets a lot of attention (by some folks) even in our working lines. Bolo patches are a fault too, and we just whelped a litter of 7 with 5 white footed pups. Didn't check the studs feet - but he had a nice tail, plus, I'll take those patches any day as these will be awesome pups. I'm learning as I go, and still hope someday that I can breed some damn good dogs that look the way they should. If not, I'll stick with the damn good dogs.

Here's to you all - blessings and good tidings for you and your dogs. We love them all, whippet tails, white feet, and trisket ears. They all do what we ask if they know what we're asking.

Happy Thanksgiving.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Bolo patches are a fault too, and we just whelped a litter of 7 with 5 white footed pups


Under the paws? I bet they are yellow factored.


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## bobbyb (Jul 31, 2005)

Cleo Watson said:


> Cleo, they don't pick up birds with their tails'.


This is very true. Tell you what else a curved tail is good for, when you bath them ,you can HANG them on the clothes line to dry !!!!
BobbyB
cajun


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

so exactly what is supposed to be the right tail length? and what are airplane ears?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Huntinlabs, my dog has high tail carriage and "airplane ears". I think what they mean is that the dogs ears are small and tend to point out to the sides instead of a nice smooth flat flap. It has in no way affected his skills! If I were into show dogs, I would not have bought this one. But meanwhile, I have the dog of a lifetime, if I can just learn to handle him.


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

When I was a kid we used to run coyotes with hounds mostly walkers and julys. As we got more and more into it my buddy started to just breed his dogs to the best dogs he could find. Not cross breeding but breeding for quality. They culled hard for quality hunting dogs that could run and fight rather than breed standards and even though theyr pack of hounds were pure bred his running walkers didn't look anything like the **** hounds I was breeding or even what they should have looked like. He did win a lot of hunts and sold a lot of great pups though. Some folks are real concerned with the looks and some folks want performance that's why there are so many breeders out there, so you can find just what's important to you.
Jim


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## TerRun (Jan 6, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Under the paws? I bet they are yellow factored.


Some are just under the paws, some have some white on their heels to. Yes, the sire is black, yellow factored, dam is chocolate. But I had read somewhere that those are called Bolo patches after Banchory Bolo (not sure I have the spellling right), one of the founding sires in the Labrador breed.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Franco said:


> afdahl said:
> 
> 
> > Hah, I have almost the opposite point of view. Got a CH on one of my dogs, and was starting to worry that my show-ring activities were starting to corrupt me and make me pay attention to inessential traits, in particular tails. I more or less prayed for redemption....and got it in the form of my "keeper" from last Spring's litter, a very special little pup whose tail, since I chose her, has been more and more and more curl.
> ...


Sorry to be so slow with this--had to remember to bring my camera home. Here's the pup in question.








If you like I can rephrase and say that there are so many traits higher on my priority list than straightness of tails, that in my system tails get negligible weight.

Amy Dahl


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

Amy, that is not nearly as bad as some of the curly tails that pop up in Tollers! I have been battling against super curly tails for awhile now...and losing the battle. (I really dislike curly tails! I can still finish a CH on a Toller with them, but I hate to look at them). I can breed 2 dogs with nice tails (out of parents with nice tails) and still sometimes get full circle tails in the pups! Like this:










This one's tail start curling at 5 weeks old, it now is in full perma-circle, resting on her back! A sister of hers I kept, with a beautiful tail, suddenly started curling at 5 months old


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

My dog has helicopter ears...










He never did as a pup.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Amy and Tollwest, have to admit they are impressive curls.

Since tail docking has been banned in Australia, I see some odd tails in traditionally docked breds.


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