# Does anyone train their own dogs anymore?



## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Entered my home clubs HT in Sept, 5 count it 5 amateurs running dogs! 55 dogs run by pros. Do people really find training a HT dog THAT difficult? I myslef enjoy the time training my own dogs. I have only been at the retriever game for 6 years but had hounds for years. Very few to no houndsmen have a pro train their dogs, they took pride in training running their own dogs. Why is the retriever games so different? I get using a pro for the FT game but for HT?

Not looking for an argument just do not understand why people do not train their own dogs.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think you've asked this several times.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Time, money, and simple economics. It's cheaper to put a dog on a pro truck to run a test for the weekend than it is to go run it yourself. Many don't have the time. Their time is better spent (in their opinion...the only one that matters) with their young families at sporting events, church functions, and the like. For others, their time is better spent working...simply, they can make more money in the time it takes to train the dog than it costs to pay someone else to train it. Others simply may not enjoy training like you do. Sure, they enjoy using the finished product but dont enjoy all that comes with getting there.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

Self-employed and train my own dogs. Had a Grand pass in my pocket last Fall until *I*, not my dog, FUBARed. It can be done.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

JoeOverby said:


> It's cheaper to put a dog on a pro truck to run a test for the weekend than it is to go run it yourself.



Expand on that please...............I don't see how.


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## Black & Yellow (Jan 9, 2016)

Even on the HT side results matter. Lots of shoppers looking at EE for pass rates. Almost becomes the same mentality as FT's for me in that I'll have a seasoned pro run to hopefully avoid a stupid handler mistake.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

dorkweed said:


> Expand on that please...............I don't see how.


Hotel $100 a night, 2 nights $200
Gas roundtrip $100
Food let's be cheap and call 3 dinners, 2 lunches, and 2 breakfasts are $75 but there aint no way.

We're at $375...not including entries

I divide that $375 by 10 dogs on my truck and that's $37.50/dog. Even with a $50/day handling fee your weekend total bill comes to $137.50...

That's almost $250 cheaper than you can do it.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think you've asked this several times.


Not looking for negative argumentive comments, thank you.


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## buckihunter302 (Nov 18, 2015)

dorkweed said:


> JoeOverby said:
> 
> 
> > It's cheaper to put a dog on a pro truck to run a test for the weekend than it is to go run it yourself.
> ...


To have a pro run your dog for the weekend you spend:
$90 entry fee
$75+/- handling fee
You're share of his expenses (gas, hotel, etc) split between all the owners of dogs he's running that weekend. We'll assume $50.

To run your own dog for the weekend you spend:
$90 entry fee 
$75+/- in gas
$50+/- in food
$150+/- in hotel for two nights

Having done both, I definitely prefer to run my own dog, especially since I've done a majority of her training. But it was definitely cheaper for a pro to run her.


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## hockgreg (Dec 15, 2016)

JoeOverby said:


> Hotel $100 a night, 2 nights $200
> Gas roundtrip $100
> Food let's be cheap and call 3 dinners, 2 lunches, and 2 breakfasts are $75 but there aint no way.
> 
> ...


True but with none of the satisfaction of doing it yourself.


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## Barry Ireland (Feb 18, 2005)

I am a Amateur and for one would love to train my own dogs. I am self employed and work 60-70 hours a week, plus have 3 young grandsons. Two of the grandsons are 5 hours away. So in order to enjoy the boys, keep up with home duties, and take care of work, there is not enough time left to do a good job with training. I have a 8 month old male now that I swore I would do it myself. I can tell you for a fact that he is behind where he should be. A lot of pros charge $75-$100 to run your dog. I can not take a 3 day weekend and buy fuel and motels for what they charge. Problem is finding a pro that I feel good with and we get along well. I am the type that if I leave a dog with you I like to hear updates.


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## mikehmike (Jan 11, 2017)

First time dog owners like myself want to see how training a retriever is done, how to handle a dog in a hunt test etc. I'd rather have my dog professionally trained and it done correctly, I learn in the process for the future. Another factor is I can't spend 4 weekends a month or even 2 sometimes traveling to hunt tests, sometimes I have to vanish for a few weeks so it's in the best interest of my dog to go with a pro while I'm gone and get his fun in.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

hockgreg said:


> True but with none of the satisfaction of doing it yourself.


Not my job to define satisfaction...nor dictate to someone else what theirs has to be.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

For the same reason the remote control is used on your TV ..people got lazy, they want a dog that can compete right away,they really don't want to be bothered by the steps taken or the route used, they are only concerned with the bottom line,can my dog compete and can it be titled...People will sell their souls to the devil for a titled dog and in their mind the pro trained dog is the fastest and most efficient way to achieve that goal..


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

I understand breeders looking to make their riches in puppies sending their bitches to be titled, it is a business for them. Get QAA or MH then the dog is a brood bitch, I understand that. For many the time training with our own dogs is bounding time, fail/pass or finish a FT just to me is so much sweeter when it was done on your own. But that is me, I remember working more then fulltime as a flight nurse, school fulltime for my MBA and training my Raven. The time I had with her was both rewarding, frustrating, and relaxing at the same time.

Is time the main reason pros are used so much? It just seems in the short time I have been at this more and more pro-trained HT dogs now. How do you have time to hunt then if no time to train?


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## hockgreg (Dec 15, 2016)

JoeOverby said:


> Not my job to define satisfaction...nor dictate to someone else what theirs has to be.


Never said it was but SOME folks just don't want to put in the time & effort,others have good & legimate reasons.I've seen both.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> I understand breeders looking to make their riches in puppies sending their bitches to be titled, it is a business for them. Get QAA or MH then the dog is a brood bitch, I understand that. For many the time training with our own dogs is bounding time, fail/pass or finish a FT just to me is so much sweeter when it was done on your own. But that is me, I remember working more then fulltime as a flight nurse, school fulltime for my MBA and training my Raven. The time I had with her was both rewarding, frustrating, and relaxing at the same time.
> 
> Is time the main reason pros are used so much? It just seems in the short time I have been at this more and more pro-trained HT dogs now. How do you have time to hunt then if no time to train?


Yes, I would think time is the main reason. But also not everyone wants to train their own dog. What's wrong with that? They think a pro can do it better. Probably true if that is the person's mindset. Also, living in big cities, access to land and water to train on, if you can even get access...is an hour or two away. That can be a 3 or 4 hour adventure to run two quick setups for one dog. Sometimes, especially in the winter, there just aren't enough hours in the day. 

Some of my other friends that I know that use pros also have young children. They enjoy dogs and some of them (not all) want a finished dog. However, their kids are also playing sports every weekend and they might only get a few "off" weekends a year. They have ZERO desire to use those free weekends sitting at a hunt test all day. In fact, I think most of them would have zero desire to sit at a hunt test all day anyway. It's just not fun for them. They would rather use those free weekends to take their kids hunting or maybe just a hunting trip with buddies.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

ME. And when I can't its over.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I train my own dogs. Have one now I have considered sending to a pro for the winter, but I would worry the whole time he was gone...Learning to train one's own dogs is rewarding, humbling, and comes with regrets and pride... at least assuming one learns from their mistakes. 

The learning curve to being a trainer (amateur or otherwise) can be steep and difficult. One can certainly follow a program, but training (successfully and efficiently) the dog in front of you takes an accumulation of experiences...successes and failures...apparently that is not a road many people can or want to take.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I also work 60-70 hrs a week and do not have the time to train my dogs. However, I handle my dogs the majority of the time. I've handled my dogs in at least 75% of the test or trials we've ran. I can usually get away most weekends and do my best to do so. So I don't train them but I do handle them. I also try to spend at least a day every other week or so with my dogs and training working with them.


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## Coldtrack (Sep 8, 2015)

JoeOverby said:


> Hotel $100 a night, 2 nights $200
> Gas roundtrip $100
> Food let's be cheap and call 3 dinners, 2 lunches, and 2 breakfasts are $75 but there aint no way.
> 
> ...


Do pro's train for free and only charge to run dogs at HT's? How far ahead does a pro need the dog for training before taking to a HT? I'm sure that is not free, so if you tack on the training fee's is it still cheaper to have a pro run the dog?


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## jgsanders (Jul 9, 2015)

I don't think anyone ever has to apologize for hiring a professional to do a professional job, no matter if it's a dog trainer, mechanic, etc. 

A major factor too is access to diverse grounds and water, and good water.

As to the weekends, I like seeing my dog run, but I'm indifferent to the other 50+ dogs unless I know the dog/owner...so it can be boring waiting around for the next series.


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## mikehmike (Jan 11, 2017)

Coldtrack said:


> Do pro's train for free and only charge to run dogs at HT's? How far ahead does a pro need the dog for training before taking to a HT? I'm sure that is not free, so if you tack on the training fee's is it still cheaper to have a pro run the dog?


Just the pro I use but handling is $75 and they would like to have my pup (they trained him previously) the Wednesday of the week for the HT. So add on something like $35-$50 a day whatever it is (can't remember) they charge for training.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Even 20 years ago it cost $300 a weekend to run yourself, a little less if you shared a room. Then you had to find different areas to train and tote equipment. I respect someone that feels their young family is more important than training a dog. I guess someone could question someone that claims to have higher degrees and professional jobs that chooses to train gundogs. The answer is its their right to do what works for them


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Tobias said:


> I train my own dogs. Have one now I have considered sending to a pro for the winter, but I would worry the whole time he was gone...Learning to train one's own dogs is rewarding, humbling, and comes with regrets and pride... at least assuming one learns from their mistakes.
> 
> The learning curve to being a trainer (amateur or otherwise) can be steep and difficult. One can certainly follow a program, but training (successfully and efficiently) the dog in front of you takes an accumulation of experiences...successes and failures...apparently that is not a road many people can or want to take.


You make excellant points. It just seems in my short time at this the amatuer trained dog is fewer and fewer each year.  People must have a whole bunch of money to write checks, and I thought our economy was so bad, I guess not. 

I also agree that HT can be boring and is probably the least thing I like about training my own dog. I guess I enjoy time with my dog just like a kid I guess. Sure I want the next NFC but unless I win the lottery probably be Quals and MH titles for me. Those of which are well within the amateur trainers grasps.


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## casjoker (Dec 22, 2016)

Currently, I am training my retriever (for the first time) beyond just hunting. Do I think he would be more advanced with a pro trainer, most definitely! However, I decided to take on the responsibility of the animal and made sure I was in a position to spend the time to care for and train him. I screw up daily with him, mistakes a pro would not make, but it has been rewarding so far. I do plan to do hunt test but I am not looking forward to the long weekend when I could be doing something else. Again, I made the decision so I need to see it through. If I can get a MH title on him it will take me longer than if a pro did it because I have lots of interest beyond just training my dog. I think I will feel a lot happier with any ribbons that _*I *_ earn than someone else earned for *my * dog. YMMV...


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

ErinsEdge said:


> Even 20 years ago it cost $300 a weekend to run yourself, a little less if you shared a room. Then you had to find different areas to train and tote equipment. I respect someone that feels their young family is more important than training a dog. *I guess someone could question someone that claims to have higher degrees and professional jobs that chooses to train gundogs.* The answer is its their right to do what works for them


If you are directing this at me I will surely clarify this for you. One I hold BSN in Nursing, two hold MBA as well, not claim it is a fact, I earned it. Fact service connected Vet no claim, fact. Fact worked for Travel Care International as critical care flight nurse, fact no claim. Fact trained my Raven dog to HRCH and MH titles by myself, no claim fact. Now retired have plenty of time to train and will also be south this winter.

Hope this helps Nancy no matter how well and delicate one tries to state things always someone looking for the argument I guess. Also Nacy I actually hunt my dogs hard, hope this answers all your questions.

My point was training to HT QAA levels is well within the reach of anyone. I have trained in city parks with many watching and enjoying the dogs, I did yard work in the yard, I have lived in cities and found places to train and always made time. It is a personal choice, some may not do the same nothing wrong again here with what ever you do.

Glad you are happy with your pro training your dogs nothing wrong with that at all.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Coldtrack said:


> Do pro's train for free and only charge to run dogs at HT's? How far ahead does a pro need the dog for training before taking to a HT? I'm sure that is not free, so if you tack on the training fee's is it still cheaper to have a pro run the dog?


Just doing the math. At $800/month for 30 days a month it cost approximately $27 per day. There are a lot of boarding facilities that charge more than that.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> If you are directing this at me I will surely clarify this for you. One I hold BSN in Nursing, two hold MBA as well, not claim it is a fact, I earned it. Fact service connected Vet no claim, fact. Fact worked for Travel Care International as critical care flight nurse, fact no claim. Fact trained my Raven dog to HRCH and MH titles by myself, no claim fact. Now retired have plenty of time to train and will also be south this winter.
> 
> Hope this helps Nancy no matter how well and delicate one tries to state things always someone looking for the argument I guess. Also Nacy I actually hunt my dogs hard, hope this answers all your questions.
> 
> ...


Your post makes me think of Dwight Schrute . . . 

That aside, we're on to 27 posts on a topic that been well discussed before this thread and is again been laid out on this one. Right or wrong its the owners choice that's all that matters. Can we at least talk about how much money people spend on horses! That's just crazy! Do people train their own horses anymore???


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

I train and breed my own dogs. Always have. Used to d o my own break out work but no more. Can't do a better job then Bruce Curtis for that. For me it's about my relationship with a dog I brought into the world. The joy is unspeakable. I am fortunate to own my own training grounds which helps a great deal. I started FT while on active duty...TDYS and deployments slowed down my learning curve. Driving 1.5 hours to the one training pond slowed down my growth but made me appreciate what I have today.

Ronan Bill


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Peter Balzer said:


> Your post makes me think of Dwight Schrute . . .
> 
> That aside, we're on to 27 posts on a topic that been well discussed before this thread and is again been laid out on this one. Right or wrong its the owners choice that's all that matters. Can we at least talk about how much money people spend on horses! That's just crazy! Do people train their own horses anymore???


Forums are like FB, if you see something that has been discussed a thousand times, my advice just move along. Lots and lots of posts on FB I do not agree with nor have an interest. I just move along and pay no attention to it. Pretty simple stuff, if you have imput or comment make it, if the posts bothers you just skip it. Makes life easy.


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## DogsNDawgs (Jul 15, 2016)

bjoiner said:


> Just doing the math. At $800/month for 30 days a month it cost approximately $27 per day. There are a lot of boarding facilities that charge more than that.



Need a like button for this. This in-part is an explanation I give to people when they ask why I spend money on a pro. I travel every week 3-4 nights a week in a hotel all over the SE. I know what boarding costs are and the lack of attention animals really receive. Sure there is no real harm at a boarding facility. But as much as I travel, why not kill 2 birds with one stone. Top notch training, boarding just happens to be included. With the work schedule I have I would limited to training days and access to grounds to train on without having a pro. 

To the OP's Original Question..... I am young in my work career, green to the sport and wanted to learn from someone who is experienced that could expose me to a lot more than I would if I was just doing it alone because I plan to be around this sport for a long time. The dog I have now is my first. She definitely has more potential then the little bit I knew and could teach her. 5/5 in Master and title at 25 months. And she's Chocolate . I am not in it for a brood female. I just wanted to be able to provide the best care/training for my dog that I could afford at the moment. Same concept with parents who obtain the best coaching for their young athletes, best teacher for an aspiring musician, private education, etc. Would I love the gratification to train my own dog/s, of course. But financially I do not have the luxury of land and free time. If I won the lottery, then I would be singing a different tune. Lol.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Coldtrack said:


> Do pro's train for free and only charge to run dogs at HT's? How far ahead does a pro need the dog for training before taking to a HT? I'm sure that is not free, so if you tack on the training fee's is it still cheaper to have a pro run the dog?


Well...for me,
$650/month training
$200 hotel
$100 Gas
$75 food
$50/day handling fee
Expenses divided by an average of 10 dogs is about $40. 
Soooo...
Weekend is approx $140...lets say we run 3 hts in a month. That's $420...now let's add my monthly fee...thats $650+$420=$1070.

Cost to do it "yourself for 3 hts a month not including YOUR time=$1125. 

Paying for a month with me and running 3 hts is cheaper than you going to 3 hts....


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Forums are like FB, if you see something that has been discussed a thousand times, my advice just move along. Lots and lots of posts on FB I do not agree with nor have an interest. I just move along and pay no attention to it. Pretty simple stuff, if you have imput or comment make it, if the posts bothers you just skip it. Makes life easy.


My comment was you sound like Dwight Schrute . . . other things to consider is maybe people pay a pro to train them as much as the dog. Maybe the pro and client work closely together, the handler/owner to know how/when/why to correct or how/why a dog is re-acting a certain way. My dog and I both have benefited significantly from pro training of me. Maybe the pro is friend who you want to support.

Let's assume healthy dogs have on average a working life of 7-10 years. If a pro can have my hunting dog/breeding dog/companion dog/trial dog/test dog or whatever the hell else you want to do with it ready to work at a high level (finished/master/QAA) in 18-24 months vs. an amateur eventually accomplishing this at 36-60 months. What is that extra time worth? Hard to put a price on a well trained dog at your side in the blind. While the Amateur may be in it for the journey, which I respect. Maybe some just want a better hunting dog 1-2 seasons faster.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

JoeOverby said:


> Well...for me,
> $650/month training
> $200 hotel
> $100 Gas
> ...


looks like you can increase your monthly rate $50-100


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

wish i had the time too!!!! or mine would be here now instead of in NY with a pro....


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

We see this debate on a regular basics. Guys I don't think it's about the cost or money entirely 

Many people don't have access to grounds to train with. Our eastern coast and western coasts are crowded and it's tough to go train. Example: we were on the west coast a few years ago and it was 3.5 hours one way to train and in my part of the land if I go 5 minutes I m thinking it's a hassle so I don't believe I would preserve if I had 3.5 hours one way to train 

I believe this pro question is over rated as they are needed and it is amateurs that send the check. 
But if I lived in a subdivision, had a commute to and from work then we would use a pro or find another sport 
Just me 
Dk


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

If hunt tests had to rely on just amateurs to run their tests, most clubs would not be able to afford to put on 2 tests a year. I'm judging, one of the 6 full flights of Finished, at Music City HRC next weekend. Out of those 6 full flights, I'd be surprised if the amateurs could fill just one flight. My point is, in the South (especially) there is a hunt test, either HRC or AKC, every weekend. Most amateurs cannot afford the time, nor money, to run a test every weekend. If it were not for the pros, we would have a whole lot fewer tests and it would take forever to go through all the title progressions from Started to Finished/Junior to Master.


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## AAA Gundogs (Mar 17, 2016)

I'm actually a little shocked that the animosity towards those that will use pro trainers for their dogs but rely on others to teach and coach their children, build their homes, etc. Why not do that yourself? 

There is a place for pros. There is a place for amateurs or do-it-yourselfers. There are advantages and disadvantages to both but neither is bad.

For example, 2 months on the northern prairies are transformative for the pointing breeds. I can't do it and frankly, don't want to do it. My guy is a magician with force fetch and I don't have the schedule that allows multiple sessions daily.

Time is a finite commodity. Most folks don't want to sit around all day waiting for their run. It is why you see most amateurs in pointing field trials running 3 or 4 dogs. It is the tipping point between time and money spent vs reward.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I believe the overwhelming majority of hunting dogs are trained by their owners. The fact is most don't care at all about tests or trials. Tests and trials are what Pros do. There are some pros out there that don't test or trial but very few. So you have one very large group of trainers who have a small percentage of them run tests or trials and another group (the pros) who have a very large percentage run tests and trials.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

David McCracken said:


> If hunt tests had to rely on just amateurs to run their tests, most clubs would not be able to afford to put on 2 tests a year. I'm judging, one of the 6 full flights of Finished, at Music City HRC next weekend. Out of those 6 full flights, I'd be surprised if the amateurs could fill just one flight. My point is, in the South (especially) there is a hunt test, either HRC or AKC, every weekend. Most amateurs cannot afford the time, nor money, to run a test every weekend. If it were not for the pros, we would have a whole lot fewer tests and it would take forever to go through all the title progressions from Started to Finished/Junior to Master.


Sounds like it's an Industry fuelling it'self David.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> Sounds like it's an Industry fuelling it'self David.


Pretty much, Robert. I think NAHRA is about the only testing organization that you (might) find amateur trained and handled dogs equal pro trained and handled dogs.... however, that is changing, at least locally.....The pro up here who runs dogs in nahra tests is responsible for about a 200% increase in the number of dogs running advanced level tests in the last 2 or 3 years... sometimes he handles, sometimes his clients handle... but it has been good for the club...


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Some folks worry about what other people do and some folks just focus on what works for them


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"Some folks worry about what other people do and some folks just focus on what works for them."_

Thanks Matt.....that works for me.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

If folks used pros or at least trained with them, they might have more than 1 HRCH AND 1 HR titled dog in their signature line.

Sorry, i just could not help it.

MP


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Peter Balzer said:


> Your post makes me think of Dwight Schrute . . .
> 
> That aside, we're on to 27 posts on a topic that been well discussed before this thread and is again been laid out on this one. Right or wrong its the owners choice that's all that matters. Can we at least talk about how much money people spend on horses! That's just crazy! Do people train their own horses anymore???


LOL!! Classic Dwight:
“I don’t have a lot of experience with vampires, but I have hunted werewolves. 
I shot one once, but by the time I got to it, it had turned back into my neighbor’s dog.”


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## Danny Castro (Jan 31, 2012)

Just a word to the wise. I came from hunt test. Put time in buy Mike Larry or Danny Farmer videos and can pass any hunt test u incounter as a AM. Just watch out and make sure u have a repaial trainer for hunt test. There are many good trainers out their get recommendations. Cause there are a lot of slap nuts out there that I wouldn't let train my pet lizard. Always ask for references cause there are people who call there self pros in hunt test word that are like. Wow !


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

1/10th of water in South Louisiana doesn't have gators in it. Nearly ALL of the water that doesn't have gators is private and 1-2 hours away. Team that with trying to coordinate with 4-5 other people to train with, trying to fit it in to a 3 hour temp safe time of the day, and you are at near impossible or extremely inconvient to execute. 

I've been to other places in this country that are littered with beautiful safe, accesible and/or public water. I envy those places daily.

Edit: this above post was in regard to breaking down and paying a FT pro. But, if I can't find time or resources to train my own to a HRCH MH then I reckon I'll be out the game. I enjoy training them too much to just be a show up weekend handler.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

I've had one dog I trained myself to SH level...got 2 passes before tragically losing her... I have two dogs between SH/MH/derby level that are pro trained (one titled, the other is just 12 months). I run all my own hunt tests, obedience and agility trials, because I *like* competing with my dogs. I do all my own obedience/agility training as well as some of the field basics (e.g. FF).

Everyone has different reasons for sending their dog to a pro for training... I have a couple big reasons. 
1) Available grounds. 
2) Available help to train with on a daily/regular basis. 
3) I want the basics done right, esp swim-by, water force, water T, etc. 
4) If I decide to sell the dog it's worth more as a pro trained dog... 
5) Time - the pro can make progress with the dog so much faster than I can, and I don't have much free time.
6) Probably the most important to me - I want my pro's input on the dog. I want to know what personality traits they like/don't like, why, what would make the dog better, what I should look for in the next dog, if I breed the dog what I need to look for/avoid when selecting a stud. I've trained about 10 dogs. My pro might work with 80 a year. I'm willing to pay for that perspective.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I do but probably only get a fraction of the way there. BUT...I at least learn in the process what my girl may need w/ regard to breeding. So not all is lost.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Well on my 3rd dog at this point..screwed up the first still got MH HRCH GMHR, Qual Jams a lot of work a lot of $$$; still had to enlist a pro to fix me screw ups. 2nd dog, got smart had a pro help from the start, about 1/2 the cost in entries, titled out in 1/2 the time..but significant investment in pro, yes stubborn enough to run my own dog. Now 3rd dog I realize I a suck as a handler, and now there's more dogs running, I'm shooting and loading wingers for less people who care to run their own dogs, and mostly for the same handler "pro" 60 dogs and a least 2/3 are Pros. I'm not getting paid, giving up my free time for others getting paid to do it. But I still respect the titles as I've brought my own dogs up from the bottom and I want my dog to show they have the skill level. That they are capable, but I get less and less satisfactotion from showing up working and running my own dogs, many other things I'd rather be doing, rather than playing free bird boy to someone charging for it. So the temptation is there to let someone else run the dogs. As it is I only run the minimum # of test to title..competing against myself to do better than last go around. you get all syndical to just not do it anymore..but then you go to a test where everyone is so happy you showed up, and so happy you've given your time, with others that are giving back just like you, and it's hard to just pass it off. Hopefully those type of test keep coming around  Although at this point I've titled out on #2, so might be a few year before I take it up again, well unless those nice people working their butts off for NO pay call and ask for help..


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't have any issue with pro trained dogs. For many that is the best plan to get a decent hunting dog or more. I'm not sure I agree with the economic argument. 
I train my own dogs now but in the past I have used pros for short periods.


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## vtjackson (Mar 23, 2017)

Kind of reminds one of the old MasterCard ads - "Cost of having someone else to blame if your dog fails?"


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

That ratio is also a function of the circuit you run, time of year and master national qualification rules. 

You don't see that out this way. We have plenty of pros running around but they are primarily based in FT, so at your typical MH you will see certain pros but it's not 90% of the entries - maybe 30%.

Not sure what difference it makes if you were able to get an entry. If those guys bring a little help that test will run smoother than one with 40 amateurs.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

KwickLabs said:


> _"Some folks worry about what other people do and some folks just focus on what works for them."_
> 
> Thanks Matt.....that works for me.


Perfect quote. 

I can't believe the number of people that dont like going to hunt tests. That's part of the fun. Friends, beer, food, watching good dogs, tequila, friends. I love the tests themselves! All part of it and even when putting on a test, an awesome break from the work grind.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL,

I wish you and your dogs the most enjoyable of experiences at the upcoming hunt test. 

Please try to enjoy the moment. As someone who worked hard through life, you deserve to enjoy your hobby in retirement without stress or dissatisfaction.

I won't ever be perfect. But it sure can be fun.

Enjoy and may God bless you.

Chris


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

Because of the absolute pure enjoyment that I get out of training and running my dogs they will never run from anyone's side but mine. That being said, I'm retired so I have the time, had lots of help when I first stared out playing this game. I read a few books, watched lots of DVDs and was able to get advise from a Hunt test pro. I would say that most of the people in my amateur training group had help from a pro at one time or other but now do most of the training and running themselves.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

sunnydee said:


> Because of the absolute pure enjoyment that I get out of training and running my dogs they will never run from anyone's side but mine.


This year I asked a friend to handle my dog in a NAHRA senior test because I was judging another stake... Initially I sat on the fence about it because I wanted the satisfaction of doing it all myself....but I decided what the heck, why not? The worse that can happen is they fail... LOL.... She spent a total of about an hour in training with him and they passed the test. Her first attempt at handling an advanced level dog in a test and his 3rd attempt (he passed the other two). He is a young dog (just barely 2) and I didn't have any expectations for either of them, but they passed that day and I think I was more proud of my dog for that achievement than I was for the times he passed with me at the helm.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Well on my 3rd dog at this point..screwed up the first still got MH HRCH GMHR, Qual Jams a lot of work a lot of $$$; still had to enlist a pro to fix me screw ups. 2nd dog, got smart had a pro help from the start, about 1/2 the cost in entries, titled out in 1/2 the time..but significant investment in pro, yes stubborn enough to run my own dog. Now 3rd dog I realize I a suck as a handler, and now there's more dogs running, I'm shooting and loading wingers for less people who care to run their own dogs, and mostly for the same handler "pro" 60 dogs and a least 2/3 are Pros. I'm not getting paid, giving up my free time for others getting paid to do it. But I still respect the titles as I've brought my own dogs up from the bottom and I want my dog to show they have the skill level. That they are capable, but I get less and less satisfactotion from showing up working and running my own dogs, many other things I'd rather be doing, rather than playing free bird boy to someone charging for it. So the temptation is there to let someone else run the dogs. As it is I only run the minimum # of test to title..competing against myself to do better than last go around. you get all syndical to just not do it anymore..but then you go to a test where everyone is so happy you showed up, and so happy you've given your time, with others that are giving back just like you, and it's hard to just pass it off. Hopefully those type of test keep coming around
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good post 
I like you and I'm just a little more than tired of being a free bird boy hustling in and running your dog and then running out in throwing birds again paying your own expenses so the pro can make two or $3,000 in a weekend on handlers fees

I think it's about time I joined surpuff in my lawn chair drinking tequila eating food and chatting with my friends
That sounds much more enjoyable than the way I'm doing it now
Additionally be more conducive to success to have time to focus on the dogs


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Dave Kress said:


> We see this debate on a regular basics. Guys I don't think it's about the cost or money entirely
> 
> Many people don't have access to grounds to train with. Our eastern coast and western coasts are crowded and it's tough to go train. Example: we were on the west coast a few years ago and it was 3.5 hours one way to train and in my part of the land if I go 5 minutes I m thinking it's a hassle so I don't believe I would preserve if I had 3.5 hours one way to train
> 
> ...


How in the world do you hunt your dog then? If 3.5 hours one way to train hunting must be out of the question then.

I used to live in Wisconsin, far from either coasts and that place was too crowded for me. The last straw came when I was training on the outskirts of a state park. No one for miles, nothing but grass fields with no one around, had a game warden threaten to throw me in jail for running a dog per his comment" not under control". Showed hom control at 350 yards but he did not find that funny, gave me a warning, I put my house on the market and moved to ND, could not be happier now. It is all what each of us will tolerate and enjoy.

I so much enjoy training my own dogs, I just don't understand writing a check, NOT saying anything wrong with it, but am saying I would miss the time with my dogs. Sure would have alot more success writing a check but it would be the pro's success not mine, perhaps some day will write checks if I have a open dog some day but for hunt test wingers and getting together with folks now and then is very enjoyable for me.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Chris Atkinson said:


> TODD SCHMADL,
> 
> I wish you and your dogs the most enjoyable of experiences at the upcoming hunt test.
> 
> ...


Thank you Chris I mean it, nice thing to say. I enjoy all the games, meet alot of great people and dogs. I also have made many new friends that come out to hunt with me through the games. I have had dogs my entire life from bear hounds, beagle or two, my labs and even one GSP I own now. I had my Scooter with a pro for one winter trip, about killed me to have him gone, have not done it since, just was hard doing water blinds in winter in ND! LOL


Wow, for a posts which others said "has been covered over and over" now has 2.8k views and 7 pages of posts! Must be some interest in talking about this.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Todd and post 60. 
Perhaps you missed the point. The folks that have the big commute may have more perseverance and desire than I do. 
I have property and access to property all around me so training and hunting is easier for me than those whom really have to plan the trip. It helps to be a good shot in the South and the birds that survive seem really smart about decoys and blinds. 

Surely being in ND it's easier to train and hunt than those in The big city.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Dave Kress said:


> Todd and post 60.
> Perhaps you missed the point. The folks that have the big commute may have more perseverance and desire than I do.
> I have property and access to property all around me so training and hunting is easier for me than those whom really have to plan the trip. It helps to be a good shot in the South and the birds that survive seem really smart about decoys and blinds.
> 
> Surely being in ND it's easier to train and hunt than those in The big city.


Hunting for sure is top notch here, I am living the dream but I also moved to be here. Training here, two edged coin.........Lots of areas to train but I train alone with wingers 98% of the time. I have to travel over two hours to NDRC to work on group things such as honoring, on and on. 

I also have helped out "sort of guided but not a guide", people I have met in the game come out and I am happy to show them around. There is no danger of running out of places to hunt here.

I started this thread because just amazed at how many do not train their own dogs, and now HT witch I thought was for the "working guy" to have a venue to learn and grow as trainers/dog people. It is now almost pro only.


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## taeicher (Jun 25, 2017)

Todd - think big picture...the most important fact is that the dogs are getting _*trained*_, shouldn't matter who's doing it. I travel to Bowman for some of your great hunting every fall. What all of us have seen out in the field makes one shake his head in disbelief...to put it mildly.

I feel fortunate that we have a pro in Meeteetse, I wish more locals would take advantage of him. Just getting a young one started right, intro to birds, gun, ecollar, water, ff, etc. A lot easier to get started on the right foot, than trying to fix problems later.

I tip my hat to fellows like you who are do it yourselfers, but am also appreciative of the professionals who are ready and willing to take on the challenges of not only training our dogs, but us would be 'handlers'.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

taeicher said:


> Todd - think big picture...the most important fact is that the dogs are getting _*trained*_, shouldn't matter who's doing it. I travel to Bowman for some of your great hunting every fall. What all of us have seen out in the field makes one shake his head in disbelief...to put it mildly.
> 
> I feel fortunate that we have a pro in Meeteetse, I wish more locals would take advantage of him. Just getting a young one started right, intro to birds, gun, ecollar, water, ff, etc. A lot easier to get started on the right foot, than trying to fix problems later.
> 
> I tip my hat to fellows like you who are do it yourselfers, but am also appreciative of the professionals who are ready and willing to take on the challenges of not only training our dogs, but us would be 'handlers'.


A huge LIKE on this. I'm so happy I have a good teaching pro that is all for the Amateurs running their own dogs and teaching them. The biggest benefit and well worth it.


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## Coldtrack (Sep 8, 2015)

Todd, it must be in one's blood to completely understand how you feel. Been in hounds as long as I can remember, ****, squirrel, bear, cats, and snowshoe hare hounds, and now these damned retrievers...LOL
I'm just a bum that has a very understanding and hard working wife that would probably divorce me if I paid to put a dog on a truck..HAHA. I enjoy the sport and the challenge of creating a line that conforms to my way of training, in the end they may not be for everyone but work for me. Keep doing what your doing brother and enjoy the benefits. Your welcome over here in Minnesota anytime for some every day training.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

Couldn't have been more proud of my CLF today. She was not the same dog I've been training......................

Training since the emergency C-section and weening pups; has been FAIR at best. Seeming lack of effort, indifference, and just the FU attitude. But she exceeded my expectations x10 today, by stepping on 6 marks (both land and water) and needing just 5 whistles for total for both the land and water blinds........................neither were gimmes.

Not something you can experience if your dog is with someone other than you...............


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## Payce (Jun 25, 2015)

Todd have enjoyed the thread, checking it regularly. Seems like the reasons are varied, which is no surprise. I have friends that do all their training and have enjoyed learning, some that know how, but decided not to, and finally those that can't and have decided the best thing for the dog is having a pro do it. Seems most benefit from a relationship with a pro that, at the least, advises them. I know I do. Many run their dogs in the HT. Probably because they stay close to home.

Days are shorter and my attitude better. It won't be long and fall will be here!

Take care.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Coldtrack said:


> Todd, it must be in one's blood to completely understand how you feel. Been in hounds as long as I can remember, ****, squirrel, bear, cats, and snowshoe hare hounds, and now these damned retrievers...LOL
> I'm just a bum that has a very understanding and hard working wife that would probably divorce me if I paid to put a dog on a truck..HAHA. I enjoy the sport and the challenge of creating a line that conforms to my way of training, in the end they may not be for everyone but work for me. Keep doing what your doing brother and enjoy the benefits. Your welcome over here in Minnesota anytime for some every day training.


You as well over here in ND, anytime. Yes, as a houndsman just could not stomach writing a check. To me would be the easy way out, that is to me. I just find out that deep inside those who write checks seem to want to argue as if they are defending their not training their own dogs. The dog doesn't care wo is training it, so for me I train my own for me, for my pride, for my satisfaction. Just seems to me more and more if not about all would rahter write checks than do the work.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> You as well over here in ND, anytime. Yes, as a houndsman just could not stomach writing a check. To me would be the easy way out, that is to me. I just find out that deep inside those who write checks seem to want to argue as if they are defending their not training their own dogs. The dog doesn't care wo is training it, so for me I train my own for me, for my pride, for my satisfaction. Just seems to me more and more if not about all would rahter write checks than do the work.


Todd, like you I am retired and some think I train every day. Yesterday I trained with a weekend warrior who had a day off. Sunday, I trained with 3 of them and Saturday, I trained with 4 of them. Today, I will train with a good friend who is a pro. You seem to want to put the same standard and commitment on all and I think that is a mistake. Let me suggest that you take a look at these people and try to understand how they can promote the sport. For me, while I love these wonderful animals and it has become a passion, I also train to work both my mind and body. We all know it takes both a good mental approach as well as one fit. 

Let me suggest that if we want to increase the number of amateurs that train their own dogs, people like you an I must be willing to help those who are not as lucky and can not train as hard and frequently. We must give them some perspective as to what success them may attain given they may only be able to train a day or two a week. Maybe we need to encourage them to come out and train with us, using our wingers, hides, ducks and the rest of our equipment that they cannot justify buying just to train occasionally. 

I could go on and on about how to get these people involved, but will simply suggest that when one is at a HT or FT, seek out these owners who have a dog with a pro and these weekend warriors and encourage them to get involved. ASK them to help in some way but see that they are not overwhelmed. I have even asked some to air my dogs since I was marshalling and could not find time to do it myself. Divide ducks into piles in preparation to rebird. You would be surprised how often they are anxious to help and get involved. Many shy away since they do not know anyone who is involved and eagerly step forward when asked. 

We all have the opportunity to improve and promote our sport. We just have to look for ways to do it.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> You as well over here in ND, anytime. Yes, as a houndsman just could not stomach writing a check. To me would be the easy way out, that is to me. I just find out that deep inside those who write checks seem to want to argue as if they are defending their not training their own dogs. The dog doesn't care wo is training it, so for me I train my own for me, for my pride, for my satisfaction. Just seems to me more and more if not about all would rahter write checks than do the work.


Golly, I sure hope the rest of the northern hemisphere continues to use pros to train their dogs so that poor Todd continues to have something to stroke his ego, training his own dogs certainly doesn't seem to be enough for him.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> You as well over here in ND, anytime. Yes, as a houndsman just could not stomach writing a check. To me would be the easy way out, that is to me. I just find out that deep inside those who write checks seem to want to argue as if they are defending their not training their own dogs. The dog doesn't care wo is training it, so for me I train my own for me, for my pride, for my satisfaction. Just seems to me more and more if not about all would rahter write checks than do the work.


Seriously? You think those that write the checks would much rather do so than train their own dogs? Come run my company for me and open the doors at 7:15 - 7:30 and then leave between 6 - 8pm Monday through Friday. Deal with 19 different personalities, which is easy compared to dealing with all of the Federal financial regulations, 11 different state banking commissions, HUD, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Ginnie Mae, Health Insurance companies, Investors that I sell loans to and a whole host of other entities! Of course I'd much rather deal with all of that than spend my days training my dogs! 

I'd love nothing more than to be able to spend my days training my dogs. In about 10 years that very well will be how I spend part of my days in retirement. Until that time I take what little time I have left and work with my trainer and my dog. I handle them in the majority of the test and trials we run. I volunteer at many of the test I'm entered in also. During hunting season I hunt my dogs as much as possible and we do as much maintenance work as possible. Unfortunately it is way too little. So don't make such blanket statements, as above, without taking into account all of the different situations we who have to write the checks are in.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Jim Danis said:


> Seriously? You think those that write the checks would much rather do so than train their own dogs? Come run my company for me and open the doors at 7:15 - 7:30 and then leave between 6 - 8pm Monday through Friday. Deal with 19 different personalities, which is easy compared to dealing with all of the Federal financial regulations, 11 different state banking commissions, HUD, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Ginnie Mae, Health Insurance companies, Investors that I sell loans to and a whole host of other entities! Of course I'd much rather deal with all of that than spend my days training my dogs!
> 
> I'd love nothing more than to be able to spend my days training my dogs. In about 10 years that very well will be how I spend part of my days in retirement. Until that time I take what little time I have left and work with my trainer and my dog. I handle them in the majority of the test and trials we run. I volunteer at many of the test I'm entered in also. During hunting season I hunt my dogs as much as possible and we do as much maintenance work as possible. Unfortunately it is way too little. So don't make such blanket statements, as above, without taking into account all of the different situations we who have to write the checks are in.


EXACTLY Jim.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I trained my own dog........and it shows! :shock:


But I have enjoyed the journey, playing with my dog, the great friends we've made and each and every event we've participated in.

I also appreciate everything my dog has taught me!
Love, loyalty, committment, enthusiasm, patience!
Everyday, he brings it into my life.

Would not trade 1 moment!


O.K.~maybe I would trade a couple moments, maybe!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I have never really cared who trained a dog. There in theory would be an increase in the number and quality of judges with more owner/trainers. That might be a positive but I have trained lots of dogs and still became an instant idiot (at least to the gallery) when I sit in the chair.

My disconnect with pro trained dogs is that I do not find handling dogs intuitive. It is a learned skill.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Ray Coppinger (1937-2017) Ph,D. Hampshire College...Interesting comments and insights about working dogs Trained/competed with sled dogs for 20 years. A biologist and author of several books and 50 peer professional approved articles. In agreement with genetic and psychological conditioning (See Cold Harbor, NY , Scott et. al).He established a breeding/training program at Hampshire for flock guarding dogs. Teaching . Crossover to better understanding canine behaviors, wired or learned. His books can be found @ Amazon with different themes. Serious readers required. Sometime the learning line has curves and angles.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Rainmaker said:


> Golly, I sure hope the rest of the northern hemisphere continues to use pros to train their dogs so that poor Todd continues to have something to stroke his ego, training his own dogs certainly doesn't seem to be enough for him.


You always have somnething to argue about Kim. You are just nasty, nasty all the time. You are a check writer and a breeder. It is money for you, no ego, no enjoyment, just flat out money. Of course you write a check God forbit you actually work and train your own dog. You attack me I will give it right back at you. You attack other breeders because in YOUR mind you are the only breeder out there. Got news for ya, you are neither. What you are is someone with nothing better to do but argue and posts 4,427 times on a forum to threats that have nothing to do with you. How about take your time and train, run your own dogs. YOU do it.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Jim Danis said:


> Seriously? You think those that write the checks would much rather do so than train their own dogs? Come run my company for me and open the doors at 7:15 - 7:30 and then leave between 6 - 8pm Monday through Friday. Deal with 19 different personalities, which is easy compared to dealing with all of the Federal financial regulations, 11 different state banking commissions, HUD, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Ginnie Mae, Health Insurance companies, Investors that I sell loans to and a whole host of other entities! Of course I'd much rather deal with all of that than spend my days training my dogs!
> 
> I'd love nothing more than to be able to spend my days training my dogs. In about 10 years that very well will be how I spend part of my days in retirement. Until that time I take what little time I have left and work with my trainer and my dog. I handle them in the majority of the test and trials we run. I volunteer at many of the test I'm entered in also. During hunting season I hunt my dogs as much as possible and we do as much maintenance work as possible. Unfortunately it is way too little. So don't make such blanket statements, as above, without taking into account all of the different situations we who have to write the checks are in.


Hey first all again a check writer feels he needs to defend his check writing. It is your decision no where on this posts have I ever said YOUR decision to write a check is wrong. It is your decision, why the defensiveness about you? 

First off if running FT writing a check maybe the only way to be competitive but for HT? Give me a break. If you do not have 30 minutes a day to train why have the dog because you surely do not have anytime to hunt then either. Nothing wrong either with having no time, again your decision to have no time. My point was in the retriever game seems almost 100% went to check writers now, not like this in hounds, pointers, beagles nothing like retrievers.

I do know one thing, check writers will never know what it is like to fail/pass, win/loose as a team just uyou and YOUR dog. The journey for those of us that truely bound with are dogs and grow together is we learn. You do not become a good handler by reading how to handle, you do not become a good mortorcyle riders by reading about it, you do it. You learn to train you learn to handle. Lots and lots of mistakes but when "dog to the line is called" we who do it all oursleves know what that feels like.......but again that is our choice.

I have no need to argue nor defend NOT writing a check why do those who write checks feel the need to argue? I do not get it.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Rainmaker said:
> 
> 
> > Golly, I sure hope the rest of the northern hemisphere continues to use pros to train their dogs so that poor Todd continues to have something to stroke his ego, training his own dogs certainly doesn't seem to be enough for him.
> ...


Good Lord Todd take a chill pill.
Just because you're retired and you have the time and like to train your own dogs
Cant you accept that not everyone's retired and has time to train their own dogs 
Others may not have the desire or inclination or ability, facilities etc to train.

Why do you care if they use a pro there's nothing that affects anybody but themselves


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> You always have somnething to argue about Kim. You are just nasty, nasty all the time. You are a check writer and a breeder. It is money for you, no ego, no enjoyment, just flat out money. Of course you write a check God forbit you actually work and train your own dog. You attack me I will give it right back at you. You attack other breeders because in YOUR mind you are the only breeder out there. Got news for ya, you are neither. What you are is someone with nothing better to do but argue and posts 4,427 times on a forum to threats that have nothing to do with you. How about take your time and train, run your own dogs. YOU do it.


Hahahahahaha, you are so easy to make show your true colors and lack of actual knowledge. You're the one said Charlotte Kaiser should go run a FT so she'd know what she's talking about. OMG. Talk about making a bunch of people choke laughing. In fact, we still laugh about it, because that's your only relevance = entertainment. 

Still LMAO, Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs, home to Rainey, MH, Bella, MH, Temper, MH, Maggie, MH, Luna, MH/QAA, Ransom, MH/QAA, Dyna, MH/QA2, Wager, MH/QA2, some derby greens and a point, bunches of JH and SH. Stood at the line with all of them, handled all the QAA myself, finished some of the MH myself, some were handled by pro and I thank my lucky stars I can afford to work with good pros who teach me and my dogs and put good basics on them and handle them when I have other obligations and priorities. Thank you thank you thank you.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Todd I'd say put down the shovel, but then I'd have to get some work done. . . Carry on!


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

Our last Master test was in June. We made it to the last series, a land/water triple with two (by invitation) blinds. The memory bird was hand thrown to an island in the water against the shore. The wind was blowing about 12 mph from behind us. The two other marks were 180 degrees on land in the opposite direction. One was pretty long. By the time Gage got back from the land marks the wind had caught the memory bird and pushed it about 40 yards past the island and out of sight from the line. We were the only ones this had happened to. Gage went right to the original splash but there was no bird. Neither the judges nor I had any idea where the bird was. I couldn't handle but Gage decided to hunt the small island in very heavy cover. He made his way to the top where he spotted the duck out in the water. He retrieved it and we were invited to run the first blind which he did well. We were invited to run the second blind which was about 80 yards across two points (the judges pointed out that they were in direct line to the blind). Unfortunately, his last mark had floated to a point that was about half way to that blind also in direct line. Talk about factors! I lined him up carefully and sent him. He lined it with no whistles!
The applause from the gallery and the compliments from the pros just added to the pride I had in Gage for that performance. 
Gage and I have learned this game together. I know and respect a number of pros but I doubt the feeling at the time and the fond memory could be matched had Gage and I not travelled this journey as a team of two novices learning from each other.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)




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## Coldtrack (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm still very new to the sport of retrievers but have been in hounds/dogs of some type over 40 years. I entered my first master this week and managed a pass with a self trained dog, can never see myself shipping a dog off to a handler/trainer/pro, both because of expense and satisfaction of doing it myself. That said I notice one major thing I cant give my dogs no matter how much training I put into them, that's the experience of training in a HT/FT setting several times a week. I feel I have very honest, none cheating dogs, but go to a HT and "most" of that goes out the window. Unless you train with a big enough group that sets everything up like a weekend event the dogs pickup on what's going down and try getting by with whatever they can. I had several complements on the way my dog ran this weekend but for myself watching it all go down I was boiling inside watching her cheat a little here and there, creeping a few inches, mouthing the bird a little, hesitating on the pickup a few moments to get a taste of the bird...in my mind I was screaming..HAHAHA
Watched pro's come to the line with what I thought was less dog but they were very calm, some showing less desire, marking, handling skills, and I'm thinking "wish my dogs were that darn calm and cool on the line".


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Coldtrack said:


> I'm still very new to the sport of retrievers but have been in hounds/dogs of some type over 40 years. I entered my first master this week and managed a pass with a self trained dog, can never see myself shipping a dog off to a handler/trainer/pro, both because of expense and satisfaction of doing it myself. That said I notice one major thing I cant give my dogs no matter how much training I put into them, that's the experience of training in a HT/FT setting several times a week. I feel I have very honest, none cheating dogs, but go to a HT and "most" of that goes out the window. Unless you train with a big enough group that sets everything up like a weekend event the dogs pickup on what's going down and try getting by with whatever they can. I had several complements on the way my dog ran this weekend but for myself watching it all go down I was boiling inside watching her cheat a little here and there, creeping a few inches, mouthing the bird a little, hesitating on the pickup a few moments to get a taste of the bird...in my mind I was screaming..HAHAHA
> Watched pro's come to the line with what I thought was less dog but they were very calm, some showing less desire, marking, handling skills, and I'm thinking "wish my dogs were that darn calm and cool on the line".


Coldtrack, first, congrats on your first pass. Second, you can learn to train your dogs to be better adjusted at a test even if you train alone most of the time. Exposure to group settings on a regular basis is very desirable for training, especially honoring, etc, but, you also need to know what to do with your dogs in order for this group exercise to be of the best benefit. I'd suggest some seminars or private lessons with someone very good at teaching humans how to read their dogs, get them in the right attitude for the task at hand, it is far far more than just sticking or nicking your dog at the line or in the holding blind. has to start way before that. Most of us don't even realize what we are allowing, until we've been observed and shown. Sometimes, it is just small, subtle changes. Your dogs don't have to look like they are beaten down to be decently behaved at a test. And as for cheating, mouthing, general lessening of standards, it happens to many dogs, some more than others, so, run less, train more, maintain high standards, especially in obedience, make desirable behaviors as ingrained as you can, without throwing the dog out of balance. Lots of people run a test, see the weak spots, then hammer the dog on those areas for the following week, then run again and presto chango, new problems arise. It is a lifelong process, keeping a dog in balance in training. Marks and blinds are only part of the equation though, you have to get the dog mentally in your world, vs being on their own, you can make big differences with body language and voice, it isn't just a matter of smacking down a dog into compliance. Part of this will also be incorporating a "morning of" routine and possibly repeating that somewhere off test grounds if you run late. When I skip my routine, either lazy or running late, I most certainly see the difference in the dog before we ever get to the line (and kick myself for it). If you run multiple dogs, you also have to adjust to each. 

Get Dennis Voigt's Training Retrievers Alone if you haven't already. His magazine articles, also priceless. Some of the seminar DVDS from Lardy, Farmer, Rorem, etc. 

And, most of all that did it for me, train to a field trial standard, not a hunt test one. Much of what I see at HT is sloppy. Too many seem to train just to pass. Field trialers train to win.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> Coldtrack, first, congrats on your first pass. Second, you can learn to train your dogs to be better adjusted at a test even if you train alone most of the time. Exposure to group settings on a regular basis is very desirable for training, especially honoring, etc, but, you also need to know what to do with your dogs in order for this group exercise to be of the best benefit. I'd suggest some seminars or private lessons with someone very good at teaching humans how to read their dogs, get them in the right attitude for the task at hand, it is far far more than just sticking or nicking your dog at the line or in the holding blind. has to start way before that. Most of us don't even realize what we are allowing, until we've been observed and shown. Sometimes, it is just small, subtle changes. Your dogs don't have to look like they are beaten down to be decently behaved at a test. And as for cheating, mouthing, general lessening of standards, it happens to many dogs, some more than others, so, run less, train more, maintain high standards, especially in obedience, make desirable behaviors as ingrained as you can, without throwing the dog out of balance. Lots of people run a test, see the weak spots, then hammer the dog on those areas for the following week, then run again and presto chango, new problems arise. It is a lifelong process, keeping a dog in balance in training. Marks and blinds are only part of the equation though, you have to get the dog mentally in your world, vs being on their own, you can make big differences with body language and voice, it isn't just a matter of smacking down a dog into compliance. Part of this will also be incorporating a "morning of" routine and possibly repeating that somewhere off test grounds if you run late. When I skip my routine, either lazy or running late, I most certainly see the difference in the dog before we ever get to the line (and kick myself for it). If you run multiple dogs, you also have to adjust to each.
> 
> Get Dennis Voigt's Training Retrievers Alone if you haven't already. His magazine articles, also priceless. Some of the seminar DVDS from Lardy, Farmer, Rorem, etc.
> 
> And, most of all that did it for me, train to a field trial standard, not a hunt test one. Much of what I see at HT is sloppy. Too many seem to train just to pass. Field trialers train to win.


so much truth -
Inexperienced dogs (who are just beginning to run tests - esp the test in which the dog must be off leash) can learn within a matter of two or three tests what they can get away with, vs training... If you give an inch in training, expect them to take a foot in a test... But, as Kim said, it isn't about bringing the poverbial hammer down... It is much more than that...... Reading the dog is important, having the same routine you do for training as you do for tests is important....

At the beginning of the year this year (Toby's second 'season' of testing) Toby was pretty well mannered going to the line, etc.... 4 hunt tests and 1 derby later, I could see the wheels slipping... (actually the same last year as well).....Now we have 9 months to train and get back to ground zero because of winter.... And I probably will not enter him in so many events next year since we lack only one pass for his NAHRA senior title - or no more double headers. Maybe when he his older, if I continue training him for tests he will be able to 'handle' them better...


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## Coldtrack (Sep 8, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> Coldtrack, first, congrats on your first pass. Second, you can learn to train your dogs to be better adjusted at a test even if you train alone most of the time. Exposure to group settings on a regular basis is very desirable for training, especially honoring, etc, but, you also need to know what to do with your dogs in order for this group exercise to be of the best benefit. I'd suggest some seminars or private lessons with someone very good at teaching humans how to read their dogs, get them in the right attitude for the task at hand, it is far far more than just sticking or nicking your dog at the line or in the holding blind. has to start way before that. Most of us don't even realize what we are allowing, until we've been observed and shown. Sometimes, it is just small, subtle changes. Your dogs don't have to look like they are beaten down to be decently behaved at a test. And as for cheating, mouthing, general lessening of standards, it happens to many dogs, some more than others, so, run less, train more, maintain high standards, especially in obedience, make desirable behaviors as ingrained as you can, without throwing the dog out of balance. Lots of people run a test, see the weak spots, then hammer the dog on those areas for the following week, then run again and presto chango, new problems arise. It is a lifelong process, keeping a dog in balance in training. Marks and blinds are only part of the equation though, you have to get the dog mentally in your world, vs being on their own, you can make big differences with body language and voice, it isn't just a matter of smacking down a dog into compliance. Part of this will also be incorporating a "morning of" routine and possibly repeating that somewhere off test grounds if you run late. When I skip my routine, either lazy or running late, I most certainly see the difference in the dog before we ever get to the line (and kick myself for it). If you run multiple dogs, you also have to adjust to each.
> 
> Get Dennis Voigt's Training Retrievers Alone if you haven't already. His magazine articles, also priceless. Some of the seminar DVDS from Lardy, Farmer, Rorem, etc.
> 
> And, most of all that did it for me, train to a field trial standard, not a hunt test one. Much of what I see at HT is sloppy. Too many seem to train just to pass. Field trialers train to win.


Thanks for the advice Kim, and it was nice meeting you a few weeks back.


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## BlessedFowlHunter (Jun 11, 2016)

Seems like I'm a young buck (29 y/o) from the people I've met with in regards to the FT/HT game, but I originally got my pup for duck hunting. It wasn't until later that I learned what a true "finished" retriever was and fell in love with training. I love every aspect of training her every day and can't get enough of it. So for as long as I'm able, I'll be training my own dogs. I will probably run her in some HT as that is in a sense a test of her ability and mine. It will allow me to strive to be better and make her better too.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Coldtrack said:


> Thanks for the advice Kim, and it was nice meeting you a few weeks back.


You too, glad you have such good people and groups to train with on good grounds. Kudos as well to joining and working a club like you have.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I think it best, from time to time, to reflect/remember when we started. HPW


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

JoeOverby said:


> Hotel $100 a night, 2 nights $200
> Gas roundtrip $100
> Food let's be cheap and call 3 dinners, 2 lunches, and 2 breakfasts are $75 but there aint no way.
> 
> ...


That's not even counting the opportunity cost. Realizing that your training time costs you upwards of $400 per hour is pretty sobering when the trainer is $800/month.


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