# Top Field Trial goldens of all time



## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

Anyone have a list or a Link???



thank you in advance!


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

David Lo Buono said:


> Anyone have a list or a Link???


Yes, are you interested in a particular Golden?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

This is a start.

http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/history.htm Have fun.

John


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> This is a start.
> 
> http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/history.htm Have fun.
> 
> John


John, assuming "Top Field Trial Goldens of All Time" would be measured by all age points, the list on the Topbrass website is not at all representative of the top dogs. Only 3 listed are in the top 10.

The only source of the data that I am aware of is the GRCA Year Books. Maybe the AKC on line records go back far enough but one would need names to research the point record for each dog.

The GRCA Year Books Field Trial results were not even listed alphabatically until the 1970s so compiling the totals is tedious. I would not swear to the accuracy of the data and certainly not to my tabulation, but subject to this disclaimer here is the top 10 FT Goldens.

Name and Total Combined Open + Amateur All Age Points
1. NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton - 274
2. FC AFC Misty’s Sungold Lad - 212.5
3. FC AFC Nickolas of Logan’s End - 176.5
4. FC AFC Kinike Chancellor - 134.5
5. FC AFC Tangelo’s Side Kick - 130.5
6. FC AFC Oakcreek Van Cleve - 125
7. FC AFC Tigathoe’s Magic Marker - 117
8. FC AFC Windbreakers Mighty Mo - 112.5
_9. FC AFC Oakcreek's Fremont - 101.5_
10. FC AFC Pajim’s Klondyke - 99
11. FC AFC Macopin Expectations - 96.5

I would venture to speculate that the chances of this list ever changing is on a par with there being another Dual Ch Golden Retriever.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jim Pickering said:


> John, assuming "Top Field Trial Goldens of All Time" would be measured by all age points, the list on the Topbrass website is not at all representative of the top dogs. Only 3 listed are in the top 10.
> 
> The only source of the data that I am aware of is the GRCA Year Books. Maybe the AKC on line records go back far enough but one would need names to research the point record for each dog.
> 
> ...


I agree, at least not in our lifetime, but we can always hope. I think had he lived a normal long life, FC AFC Mioak's Smoke'n Zeke would have broken into that list. Thanks for putting that list together, as for the Topbrass list, it's fun to read about those great old dogs.

John


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## weebegoldens (Jan 25, 2005)

Jim,

How many points did Bozo have?

Megan


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

David Lo Buono said:


> Anyone have a list or a Link???
> 
> 
> 
> thank you in advance!


Melanie,,,
do you have any stats on this?
;-)


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Other interesting statistics on www.undeniablegoldens.com, but I'm not sure if he has a list of the point counts.

Charles has compiled some lists of QAA and titled Goldens born after 1999 as well.


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

weebegoldens said:


> Jim,
> 
> How many points did Bozo have?
> 
> Megan


Bozo? Are we talking Bozo the Clown or did someone actually name a dog Bozo?

So Megan are you telling us that you do not have a set of GRCA Year Books? Shame on you!!

FC AFC Chief Sands OS FDHF, “Bozo” was apparently pro trained and handled given that he had 53 Open points and 34 Amateur points for a total of 87.

Any others while I have the folder handy.


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## luvgld (Jan 24, 2010)

For anyone that's interested in a look waaay back, I've got the 1950 and 1957 GRCA yearbooks. The 1957 edition lists all goldens who placed in a FT from 1950 - 1956. The list is alphabetical by dog's name, then lists the Trial name/date and pts earned. It also lists dogs in the "Field Dogs of Fame", with their pts, a photo and a 3 generation pedigree. The only dog in this list that is mentioned above is FC AFC Oakcreek Van Cleeve.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Jim Pickering said:


> I would venture to speculate that the chances of this list ever changing is on a par with there being another *Dual Ch Golden Retriever.*


who was the last and when was it done...surely someone has done it since Quar...


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Jim Pickering said:


> Bozo? Are we talking Bozo the Clown or did someone actually name a dog Bozo?
> 
> So Megan are you telling us that you do not have a set of GRCA Year Books? Shame on you!!
> 
> ...


Heeee did it!!!! (Bozo reference, sorry, couldn't help myself). 

Anyway, since you were so nice to offer, how many did Topbrass Eli have? I find it interesting that most of the dogs on the top ten list you posted were from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The most recent dog on there died in the 90s. I'm sure there are multiple reasons for this. Changes in training, changes in the trials themselves, changes in the dogs being bred? I'm sure a topic that has been discussed ad nauseam here and other places...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mlopez said:


> Heeee did it!!!! (Bozo reference, sorry, couldn't help myself).
> 
> Anyway, since you were so nice to offer, how many did Topbrass Eli have? I find it interesting that most of the dogs on the top ten list you posted were from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The most recent dog on there died in the 90s. I'm sure there are multiple reasons for this. Changes in training, changes in the trials themselves, changes in the dogs being bred? I'm sure a topic that has been discussed ad nauseam here and other places...


It really hasn't been discussed that much, and I was wondering the same thing. I see a lot of very talented Golden's, and a number of them Title, with a few racking up some impressive points, but I haven't seen that one dog that strikes fear into the field since Zeke died. You know, the kind of dog that you expect to be in the last series every weekend and aren't surprised to see them place more often than not.

Is it just a matter of odds? Out here we have a fair number of Golden's running, but only 10% of the field on average. Does that mean we have to wait ten times longer for our version of Carbon or Auggie to show up? One thing I have noticed with my dogs is that they can hang with anybody in marking, drive, courage, headiness and water courage, but I seem to struggle in getting them to run today's all age blinds as smoothly as their Lab counterparts. Could be my training, but my dogs seem so fast and twitchy that it is a struggle sometimes.

John


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2011)

I just wonder when Mr. Pickering is going to start talking to me again. I miss him and even when he is in a mood.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2011)

And I forgot to mention, if anyone pays attention to producers, Pi is close to closing into Peach on the record for producing performance Goldens. We are honored to get so close. (Though personally I think it should have been Pony or Rev to get the recognition.)


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Just walked in the door and saw this thread.

Bon--last Golden Dual Champion was Quar in 1979
last Labrador Dual Champion was Dual CH AFC Hiwood Shadow in 1984

Oakcreek Van Cleve was also a Canadian National Open Champion

I have a list of some points, but have to do some searching to find where that list is since I have been redoing my file system.

Ann---could I get in contact with you privately re getting some of the info from your 1950 and 1957 GRCA Yearbooks. Thanks.

Glenda


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> It really hasn't been discussed that much, and I was wondering the same thing. I see a lot of very talented Golden's, and a number of them Title, with a few racking up some impressive points, but I haven't seen that one dog that strikes fear into the field since Zeke died. You know, the kind of dog that you expect to be in the last series every weekend and aren't surprised to see them place more often than not.
> 
> Is it just a matter of odds? Out here we have a fair number of Golden's running, but only 10% of the field on average. Does that mean we have to wait ten times longer for our version of Carbon or Auggie to show up? One thing I have noticed with my dogs is that they can hang with anybody in marking, drive, courage, headiness and water courage, but I seem to struggle in getting them to run today's all age blinds as smoothly as their Lab counterparts. Could be my training, but my dogs seem so fast and twitchy that it is a struggle sometimes.
> 
> John


Oh good, I was afraid I was bringing up a topic similar to the "field/show split." I wouldn't think that odds would be a huge factor. Weren't labs still dominating the field in the earlier years? Also, a good dog is a good dog, and it would still accumulate points no matter if they were the only golden running. Maybe there aren't as many FT homes for goldens to go to, because these homes are getting labs instead? I know a friend of mine who has some good goldens, QAA and with some AM jams, is probably going to get a lab next. I'm sure some of the breeders (Melanie...) could speak to this better, since they are the ones placing pups.


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## luvgld (Jan 24, 2010)

Glenda,

I will email you re: the GRCA yearbooks. They are fascinating and there is a lot of statistical and pedigree info. in there that should be saved somewhere.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Glenda Brown said:


> Bon--last Golden Dual Champion was Quar in 1979
> last Labrador Dual Champion was Dual CH AFC Hiwood Shadow in 1984
> 
> 
> Glenda


Wow that means Quar was 8 yrs old when he got his Dual Ch..

and to think that I passed on a dog out of Shadow ( took the one from Pacer )


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

mlopez said:


> Heeee did it!!!! (Bozo reference, sorry, couldn't help myself).
> 
> Anyway, since you were so nice to offer, how many did Topbrass Eli have?


You can look up Eli’s points as easily as I can. (Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.)

Seriously, after the 1998 Year book was published the show folks took the field trial stats job away form Edwina and changed the format to worthless clutter. Given that Eli was post 1998 the Year Books are of no value. Other than contacting Eli's owner, the place I would suggest you look is to go to the AKC website, register if not already registered, go to the on line store, dog lookup then point progression.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> who was the last and when was it done...surely someone has done it since Quar...


Push did it in Canada ... I think he might have had a shot at doing it in the US, too.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Jim Pickering said:


> You can look up Eli’s points as easily as I can. (Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.)
> 
> Seriously, after the 1998 Year book was published the show folks took the field trial stats job away form Edwina and changed the format to worthless clutter. Given that Eli was post 1998 the Year Books are of no value. Other than contacting Eli's owner, the place I would suggest you look is to go to the AKC website, register if not already registered, go to the on line store, dog lookup then point progression.


Thanks Jim. I didn't know I could do that


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Eli -- Total Points 86.5

Open Points 34.5
Wins - 1

Amateur Points 52
Wins - 2


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2011)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Eli -- Total Points 86.5
> 
> Open Points 34.5
> Wins - 1
> ...


If that is from the AKC website, that could very well be incorrect. The AKC can't seem to differentiate between points in either category, meaning dogs earning points in the Open when handled by an Amateur have the points land on both categories thus are redundant. I know, AKC, our breed registry....run by rocket scientists.

No more posts by me on here unless Jim throws me a kiss.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Jim, I may have the points on Eli as know I have seen them, but am somewhat swamped at the moment---if I get a little time tomorrow, will see if they got in the correct spot in my new semi-completed filing system.

A Dual in Canada is not as challenging as attaining the goal in the US.

The Chessies last Dual among retrievers was in 2006.

The same is happening in Eng. Last Dual Golden in 1950; last Dual Lab in 1946.

Glenda


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2011)

I see some are pretending like I like I am not in the room. Well I am and always will be.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Melanie Foster said:


> If that is from the AKC website, that could very well be incorrect. The AKC can't seem to differentiate between points in either category, meaning dogs earning points in the Open when handled by an Amateur have the points land on both categories thus are redundant. I know, AKC, our breed registry....run by rocket scientists.


Well that is just silly! So how would one go about figuring the actual number of points? Does the GRCA keep tabs on this at all?


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2011)

mlopez said:


> Well that is just silly! So how would one go about figuring the actual number of points? Does the GRCA keep tabs on this at all?


As my dear friend Mr. Pickering said, our favorite and most reliable source used to be the GRCA yearbooks. I know for a fact both of us spent a large percentage of our lifetimes scouring over the stats in them. Not to discount the amount of effort the current yearbook committee is putting into the current stats(!), but I haven't ordered a single copy of the new stats on the CD version.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Glenda Brown said:


> Bon--last Golden Dual Champion was Quar in 1979


When did Hondo complete the Ch AFC?


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## dreamer2385 (Jan 21, 2007)

melanie, i know u are here!!!

don't discount the golden that are champions that have acheived JH, SH, MH titles. Any title is important to the person who worked hard to accomplish what they have done. We need to give credit to those who work hard to maintain the breed.. I think that we will have more field champions in the future.. I know that the breeders' work hard studying , do stats and keeping up with our wonderful breed... my moto is a good golden is a golden that looks like a golden and acts like a true retriever!!! goldens and golden people are the BEST..... everyone who maintain the retriever breeds to the purpose for which they are breed deserve credit where credit is due.. MERRY CHRISTMAS AND JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON.. GOD BLESS..
MARIA WILLOWBROOK GOLDEN RETRIEVERS FROM NE Pennsylvania..!!!!!!


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

mlopez said:


> I find it interesting that most of the dogs on the top ten list you posted were from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The most recent dog on there died in the 90s. I'm sure there are multiple reasons for this.


Actually just one reason and here is a perfect example.



dreamer2385 said:


> don't discount the golden that are champions that have acheived JH, SH, MH titles. Any title is important to the person who worked hard to accomplish what they have done. We need to give credit to those who work hard to maintain the breed.. I think that we will have more field champions in the future.. I know that the breeders' work hard studying , do stats and keeping up with our wonderful breed... my moto is a good golden is a golden that looks like a golden and acts like a true retriever!!! goldens and golden people are the BEST..... everyone who maintain the retriever breeds to the purpose for which they are breed deserve credit where credit is due.. MERRY CHRISTMAS AND JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON.. GOD BLESS..
> MARIA WILLOWBROOK GOLDEN RETRIEVERS FROM NE Pennsylvania..!!!!!!


http://www.willowbrookgoldens.com/cooper.html


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

The Thread is:


*TOP "FIELD TRIAL" GOLDENS of all time.*
The Tip TOP,The Best, The Winner.....................
Competition(Trials) is alot different than Hunt tests.
Nothing against H.T.

Maybe a good idea is ask the FT Pros. why "they" think that there isn't more Goldens running and placing in trials?
I would love to hear their thoughts.
What there thoughts were when they ran against the great ones.
Constructive thoughts though;-)
Sue


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Eli -- Total Points 86.5
> 
> Open Points 34.5
> Wins - 1
> ...


Yes, I did get that off the AKC website. Based on Mel's explanation, I guess that means that Eli's total points could be as few as 52? 

Still enough that some would die for


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

Jim Pickering said:


> Actually just one reason and here is a perfect example.
> 
> 
> http://www.willowbrookgoldens.com/cooper.html


This should be entertaining...


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

One reason, perhaps, for fewer Goldens having field trial success ... today most Goldens produced by responsible Golden breeders are bred for conformation qualities specifically. Back in the 50s, a lot of Goldens were pursuing both venues. 

If you follow the photos on k9data, to my eye, it appears that body type for conformation began to significantly change in the mid-to-late 70s. 

There is at least some difference between the physical fitness needed to complete a 100-yard retrieve v. a 300-yard retrieve. As the conformation body type changed toward a heavier dog, logic tells me that it would become more difficult for the larger dog to withstand the physical demands of the training (not just the trial tests) needed to perfect the field trial skills.

At National Specialties we often see at least several of the dogs who have reached the Master HT levels try their hand at the Qualifying field trial stake. In 2003, there were 105 (!!) entries in the Qualifying stake at the Ohio Natl Spec. After the scratches, I think the number actually running was slightly under 100. 

So, my conclusion might be that the HT program has been helpful in stimulating more interest in field pursuits (I can't see that as being a "bad" thing); but that does not necessarily mean that ALL Master Hunters will be capable of taking the next step into Qualifying.

However, there are certainly dogs who are bred for field trials (of ALL breeds) who will not become QAA, much less FC or AFC.

The hunt test program could supply some genetic diversity from those dogs who begin there & show potential for doing field trial calibre work. Certainly, it's nice to see more notice and concern for the value of field ability among conformation dogs.

Regardless of breed, I've never heard a field person say they PREFERRED an ugly dog; or a show person who said they were GLAD their dog had no interest in birds  Okay, maybe I've been listening to the wrong people?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Regardless of breed, I've never heard a show person who said they were GLAD their dog had no interest in birds  Okay, maybe I've been listening to the wrong people?


Gerry--

I heard these very words at a show this year sitting outside the golden ring. Followed by an expression of glee that one's bitch was bred to a sire with "the shortest back". I kid you not. I had to get up and leave before I said something. 



Amen Jim.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Pals said:


> Gerry--
> 
> I heard these very words at a show this year sitting outside the golden ring. Followed by an expression of glee that one's bitch was bred to a sire with "the shortest back". I kid you not. I had to get up and leave before I said something.


OMG! Has that human been allowed to reproduce?


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Nope Gerry.
I don't think so.
Hunt Test program yes is helping get more Confomation dogs out there but as far as trials go and Goldens...........................
I think if you look at how things have progress in the trial world with training(technology/tools) and such...........
Maybe they can't mark?
Maybe they aren't smart enough?
The pedigrees are there,the dedication to the breed is there,
I remember when the Golden Specialty had numerous FC/AFC in The Open and Amat.
I don't know what the answers are?
Sue


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## M. Robinson (Apr 13, 2011)

The original thread was about top 10 ever...not splitting the breed, hunt vs field, dual champions or 'what about me and mine'.

And then there was Razz---she 'only' won the National Amateur in Canada and had over 100 AA points; an intact bitch who raised several broods while doing it. And for those of you who dismiss the Ontario dogs as being not worthy of comparison ---I seem to remember a certain Ontario dog (she was black) beating Lean Mac and Lottie with a Canadian National Open win not that long ago. This is a tough circuit and a VERY short season.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Sue Kiefer said:


> I think if you look at how things have progress in the trial world with training(technology/tools) and such...........
> Maybe they can't mark?
> Maybe they aren't smart enough?
> The pedigrees are there,the dedication to the breed is there,
> ...


This is what I was thinking as well. As Jim pointed out, there are certainly breeders out there who are breeding goldens who aren't capable of the field work. BUT there are also breeders out there breeding awesome dogs with great pedigrees. But the dogs aren't racking up the points like they used to in the 50s and 60s. Maybe it is just a numbers game, in that it will take longer to have a Top 10 Great Golden. But 20 years? Something else must be going on...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Brad Turner said:


> This should be entertaining...


 
My understanding is that "most" of Europe's Goldens look just like that...Europe is a fairly large area and has a long history of folks breeding gundogs? 

I've spent a considerable amount of time with one that looks like that. "Boss" was imported to Seattle from Spain. The dog hunts hard, is a good marking dog and has a good water entry. Better than a lot of the non-field bred goldens. I'd say the "Euro Golden" is an improvment over many I've seen here in the US when it comes to working in the field. 

I also train two days a week with the lady who has produced a few of the best FT goldens in Canada and the US. Many of you have dogs sired by her breeding from the pedigree's I've seen listed/mentioned here in the past.


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

M. Robinson said:


> The original thread was about top 10 ever...not splitting the breed, hunt vs field, dual champions or 'what about me and mine'.
> 
> And then there was Razz---she 'only' won the National Amateur in Canada and had over 100 AA points; an intact bitch who raised several broods while doing it. And for those of you who dismiss the Ontario dogs as being not worthy of comparison ---I seem to remember a certain Ontario dog (she was black) beating Lean Mac and Lottie with a Canadian National Open win not that long ago. This is a tough circuit and a VERY short season.


Good post Medie and thanks for the reminder about Razz. I see you also picked up on the comment about a "Dual" in Canada was not as challenging....interesting.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Nope Gerry.
> I don't think so.
> Hunt Test program yes is helping get more Confomation dogs out there but as far as trials go and Goldens...........................
> *I think if you look at how things have progress in the trial world* with training(technology/tools) and such...........
> ...


An observation from a casual observer : most, if not all, pro trainiers and am's do not or cannot afford the extra time involved in crafting a consistent FT Golden. It seems a "churn and burn" mentality is required in high level FT competition, and most, if not all Golden owners are not willing to partake in the disposable dog program and will keep their beasts regardless. I know I am in that camp. 

Coupled with a shortage of raw material, it stands to reason that the #'s will not be there.


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

mlopez said:


> This is what I was thinking as well. As Jim pointed out, there are certainly breeders out there who are breeding goldens who aren't capable of the field work. BUT there are also breeders out there breeding awesome dogs with great pedigrees. But the dogs aren't racking up the points like they used to in the 50s and 60s. Maybe it is just a numbers game, in that it will take longer to have a Top 10 Great Golden. But 20 years? Something else must be going on...


It doesn't help that there is a small minority of trial judges who have an anti-Golden bias. Maybe pro black dog bias is a better description because Lord knows the poor chocolate owners often struggle with the same thing. I know two folks who ran or are running both Labs and Goldens of their own. Both said there's no question that there is often a bias since they said their Goldens often did/do better work than their Labs but the Labs got/get more placements. One of these people took both Labs and Goldens to the National Amateur so it's not like the person only saw one instance of this at one trial. The other person's Golden is QAA through major stakes. Both said it's frustrating and disheartening which I believe may have made Golden owners quit or go over to the dark side so at least they feel like the deck isn't stacked against them. With this and the MUCH smaller gene pool for field Goldens, it's a tough row to hoe for Goldens now for sure.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

mlopez said:


> This is what I was thinking as well. As Jim pointed out, there are certainly breeders out there who are breeding goldens who aren't capable of the field work. BUT there are also breeders out there breeding awesome dogs with great pedigrees. But the dogs aren't racking up the points like they used to in the 50s and 60s. Maybe it is just a numbers game, in that it will take longer to have a Top 10 Great Golden. But 20 years? Something else must be going on...


1) The decline of hunting in public favor has some impact v. the popularity of Goldens for other endeavors, from couch potato to SAR or agility dog. So, numbers of Goldens bred for field work specifically is FAR less than those produced for those other purposes ... unfortunately.

2) Loss of availability of land for owner/trainers to train their dogs, or even hunt their dogs.

Is it possible that the Golden personality is generally less adaptable to the communal living with a professional trainer? A whole other discussion!

3) Increased costs associated with field trial competition, everything from the entry fees to gasoline for the travelling to the new equipment used.

4) The overwhelming numbers of Labs in field trials can discourage a Golden owner.

5) It doesn't help when there is an article published in Shooting Sportsman that makes a statement like that below:

Jan/Feb 2012 issue of Shooting Sportsman Magazine (www.shootingsportsman.com). In George Hickoxs' Hunting Dogs column, I was shocked to read the following: "Labs and Chessies also can be used for upland hunting. I give the nod to Labs here, as they usually are faster and have more endurance. A popular dog that I have not mentioned is the Golden retriever. Quality goldens have become harder to find these days, and they now rank high on the list of dogs most likely to bite. This is not to say that there are no good goldens. There are. However, why play Russian roulette when there are so many good Labs"? 

Interesting that Mr. Hickox sells Labs 

Since not every pup in a field-bred Golden litter will go to a field trial home, the others might be more likely to go to hunting homes ... but if Mr. Hickox has his way, he would make that sub-market non-existent.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

My comments about it not being as challenging in Canada was in reference to attaining a Dual Championship not to field trial work in and of itself in Canada. This was based on many comments I have had re conformation championships----by persons who are much more knowledgeable than I am about that. Obviously, a Dual Championship is not a cake walk in the US either.

I am very good friends with many Canadian field trialers. You can check out the articles I have put in the GRN re trials/hunt tests in Canada.

I happened to be the person who recommended the JEC use Push as an example of a conformation/field Golden in hard working condition for the persons to check out while attending a judging seminar at a National Specialty. 

Sorry, Medie, I didn't mean for it to be taken in the way in which it apparently was. Mea culpa.

Glenda


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Golddogs wrote:
An observation from a casual observer : most, if not all, pro trainiers and am's do not or cannot afford the extra time involved in crafting a consistent FT Golden. It seems a "churn and burn" mentality is required in high level FT competition, and most, if not all Golden owners are not willing to partake in the disposable dog program and will keep their beasts regardless.

I was just thinking the same thing. There is something different about the way we golden owners proceed with our dogs. What Golddogs seemed to say was #1, we are not turning over dogs as often nor sending the new ones off the a pro for life. That's a numbers game.

Of all the goldens running trials, I would venture to guess that a larger *percentage* of golden owners run their own dogs in Open than lab owners. 
A larger % never have the dog with a pro beyond basics.

With all that in mind, the dogs are probably getting a day or two of less training a week? Possibly less exposure to different areas?

Golden owners are special people with special dogs (note that I did not say "special"!!) We like our dogs around us. As a rule most of us don't collect dogs to send off with a pro.

So let's say all training is equal, Pro or AM. I would like to hear why goldens are not getting more placements. I would like to hear what judges think. What do they see when a golden is run? 


Handler errors? 
Dog "THINKING too much?
Because of the 'smarts' of the breed, is it too fine a line to balance marking vs tractability?

And since I started writing, Gerry commented : "Is it possible that the Golden personality is generally less adaptable to the communal living with a professional trainer? A whole other discussion!" 
That's another reason why most of us have our dogs WITH us!

Debbie Tandoc


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## RedDog (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses.... I'm enjoying them!


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## M. Robinson (Apr 13, 2011)

Glenda Brown said:


> My comments about it not being as challenging in Canada was in reference to attaining a Dual Championship not to field trial work in and of itself in Canada. This was based on many comments I have had re conformation championships----by persons who are much more knowledgeable than I am about that. Obviously, a Dual Championship is not a cake walk in the US either.
> 
> I am very good friends with many Canadian field trialers. You can check out the articles I have put in the GRN re trials/hunt tests in Canada.
> 
> ...


Glenda,..My comment was not in response to your post. Due to sheer numbers, it is much harder to get a breed CH in the U.S. than here.

My little beef is that Canadian field dogs are not just overlooked by most in the U.S., they are off the radar. Don't forget that Lean Mac was Canadian born and trialed a fair bit north of the 49th. Razz was a formidable competitor, but her name would not have come up if I had not said something.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Re Hondo. He completed his AFC in April 1976 which combined with his Championship gave him what is referred to in the Golden community as an Honorary Dual Championship.

Glenda


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

ID Title Dog Name FC Date AFC Date Owner
3 FC Rip 10/39 Paul Bakewell III
4 FC Goldwood Tuck 9/40 Harold J. Kaufman
5 NFC King Midas Of Woodend 10/41 Nat 41 Edwin N. Dodge
6 FC Whitebridge Wally 4/41 Mahlon B. Wallace Jr
7 FC Golden Beauty Of Roedare 9/42 Richard Ryan
8 FC Banty Of Woodend 9/41 William J. Nickerson
9 FC Patricia Of Roedare 10/44 F. Robert Noonan
10 Dual Ch Stilrovin Nitro Express 10/42 Ben L. Boalt
11 FC Stilrovin Super Speed 11/42 Mrs. G. M. Livingston
12 FC Stilrovin Katherine 4/46 Mrs. James M. Austin
13 FC Pirate Of Golden Valley 5/43 Carlton D. Grassle
14 NFC Shelter Cove Beauty 5/44 Nat 44 Dr. Leslie M. Evans
15 FC April Showers 9/45 Mike Crakes
16 Dual Ch Stilrovin Rip's Pride 4/46 Kingswere Kennels
17 FC Royal Peter Golden Boy 9/45 Clifford H. Overvold
18 Dual Ch Tonkahof Ester Belle 10/46 Kingswere Kennels
19 FC Royal's Royal of Stonegate 9/51 John F. Nash
20 FC Kingdale's Buck 5/49 Kingswere Kennels
21 FC Cresta Chip 10/49 Mr. & Mrs. R. C. Heald
22 FC The Golden Kidd 10/48 Kingswere Kennels
23 FC-AFC-CNFTCh Oakcreek's Van Cleve 9/50 9/52 Alfred H. Schmidt
24 NFC-AFC-CFTCh Ready Always Of Marianhill 6/49 Nat 514/53 Mahlon B. Wallace Jr.
25 NFC Beautywood's Tamarack 10/50 nat 50 Dr. Leslie M. Evans
26 Dual Ch-AFC Squawkie Hill Dapper Dexter 8/51 10/52 Dr. Gerald W. Howe
27 FC Tri-Stada Upset 9/54 Edgar P. Landwehr
28 FC-AFC Oakcreek's Sir Dorcester 9/51 4/53 James F. Stilwell
29 FC Zip 9/54 Robert V. Speer
30 Ch-AFC Lorelei's Golden Rockbottom UD 4/55 Reinhard M. Bischoff
31 FC Beauty Of Sunburg 9/54 John F. Nash
32 FC Georgia Boy 9/54 Dr. Irving Victor
33 FC Harbor City Rebel 9/55 Alec D. Thomson
34 Dual Ch-AFC Cresta Gold Rip 6/56 6/57 Wayne E. Mahan
35 Dual Ch-AFC Craigmar Dustrack 3/57 4/58 Dr. Forrest Flashman
36 FC-AFC Red Ruff 2/57 4/56 Cyril R. Tobin
37 FC-AFC Oakcreek's Fremont 10/54 9/54 Cyril R. Tobin
38 FC-AFC, CDual Ch Rockhaven Raynard of Fo-Go-Ta4/48 3/55 Mrs. G. H. Flinn Jr
39 FC Commanche Cayenne 9/54 Sheldon Coleman
40 AFC Rock Of Roaring Canyon 9/58 John G. Hummel Jr
41 AFC Happy Thanksgiving CD 3/57 Ann A. Fowler
42 FC-AFC Joaquin Nugget 9/58 3/58 Hugh Adams
43 FC Sir Arthur 8/60 Theresa Hundley
44 FC-AFC Rocky Mack 2/62 2/59 Harold Mack Jr
45 FC-AFC Brandy Snifter 9/57 5/60 Keith M. Barnett
46 AFC Sunshine Cake 4/60 Mrs. G. H. Flinn Jr
47 FC-AFC Macopin Expectation 4/59 4/57 Mrs. George Murnane
48 AFC Golden Star Of Oak Ridge 10/59 Mrs. G. H. Flinn Jr
49 AFC King's Red Flame 5/59 Dr. Daryl P. Schmitt
50 AFC Pride of Roaring Canyon 8/61 Donald L. Burnett
51 FC-AFC Fairhaven Donner 9/61 9/61 Mrs. Snowden Rowe
52 FC-AFC Briggs Lake Mac 6/60 6/60 Henri P. Emond
53 AFC Gunnerman's Coin Of Copper 9/63 Vernon Weber
54 FC Macopin Maximum 4/60 Mrs. George Murnane
55 AFC Goldenrod's Thanksgiving 10/60 Ann A. Fowler
56 FC-AFC Tyson Rowdy 2/62 3/61 James F. Stilwell
57 FC-AFC Nicholas Of Logan 's End 5/63 10/61 Hugh Adams
58 FC-AFC Stilrovin Luke Adew 8/63 3/64 Kenneth K. Williams
59 AFC Golden Rocket VI 4/63 Donald R. Pryor
60 FC-AFC Stilrovin Tuppee Tee 9/66 8/61 Mrs. G. H. Flinn Jr
61 FC-AFC Stilrovin Savannah Gay 5/64 9/63 &nb


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

62 FC Igor Of Geekowat 8/66 A. J. & Opal Suiter
63 FC-AFC Ripp 'N Ready 3/66 4/66 Willaim D. Connor
64 FC-AFC Golden Rocket's Missile 8/67 8/65 B. F. Shearer Jr
65 FC-AFC Moll-Leo Cayenne 8/68 9/67 James D. Browning
66 FC Bonnie Brook's Tuff And A Half 10/70 Mrs. Jane Cooney
67 Dual Ch-AFC Clickety Click 2/70 2/70 Mable Smith & Len P. Floberg
68 FC-AFC Gerry's Kaiwa Of Rosamond 8/69 8/69 Geraldine Miller
70 FC-AFC Misty's Sungold Lad CDX 3/69 8/68 Ken Fisher & Valerie Walker
71 AFC Ready Of Sacramento 9/70 Ron & Connie Leineke
72 Ch-AFC Riverview's Chickasaw Thistle UDT 9/72 8/69 James & Sally Venerable
73 Dual Ch AFC Ronakers Novato Cain CD 9/72 9/69 Desmond MacTavish Jr
74 FC-AFC Sungold Sprite CD 3/72 3/71 Valerie F. Walker
75 FC-AFC Tioga Joe 9/72 5/70 Vern Weber
76 FC-AFC-CFTCh Bonnie Brook's Elmer 9/73 10/72 Mrs. George H. Flinn Jr
77 AFC Bonnie Brook's Mike 6/73 Walter K. Scherer Jr
78 FC-AFC Chief Sands 8/73 5/72 Richard L. Sampson
79 FC-AFC Kinike Coquette CD 6/73 9/71 James T. & Sally S. Venerable
80 FC-AFC Benjamin Rajah Frisbie 9/78 8/75 Darrell D. Frisbie
81 AFC Bonnie Brook's Red 10/74 Harold J. Bruninga
82 AFC Cazador's Hermanita 4/75 Mr. & Mrs. John R. Blair
84 FC-AFC Kinike Chancellor 3/74 10/75 Dr. John A. Barrow III
85 AFC Sun Dance's Babe 3/75 G. C & Mrs. C. B. Branch
86 Dual Ch-AFC Tigathoe's Funky Farquar 11/75 11/75 Dr. & Mrs. R. Eugene Ramsay
87 FC-AFC Tigathoe's Magic Marker 10/75 3/75 Joseph A. Wattleworth
89 FC-AFC Bonnie Brook's Red 5/77 10/74 Harold J. Bruninga
90 AFC Dorado's Rowdy Hastings 10/76 Wm. & Sandra Seerden
91 AFC Holway Barty 9/77 Barbara Howard
92 Ch-AFC Honor's Darado Of Spindrift 4/76 John J. Sprude
93 FC-AFC Northbreak Kinike Sir Jim 8/77 8/76 Joan Morter
94 FC-AFC Kate Of Rocky-Vue 5/76 9/74 Mr. & Mrs. J. Futhey
95 FC Sandstorm II 6/77 Vern Weber
96 FC-AFC Sungold Lad's Talisman 5-78 4/76 Valarie F. & Jay Walker
97 FC-AFC Tigathoe's Kiowa II 9/77 4/77 Mrs. Robert R. Sadler
98 FC-AFC Tigathoes Tonga 4/76 10-75 Broughton M. & Ray Earnest
99 AFC Bonnie Belle Of Huntrails 6/78 Dr. Robert & Sandee Peterson
100 AFC Caernac's Mor Sealgair 11/79 Frank & Mimi Kearney


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

101 FC-AFC Chips Of Sands 10/79 10/79 Mrs. George H. Flinn Jr
102 FC-AFC Kinike's Oro De Rojo 4/78 4/78 James T. & Sally S. Venerable
103 FC-AFC Right-On Dynamite John 8/79 4/79 Elaine Klicker
104 AFC Northbreak's Brier 9/81 Joan G. Morter
105 FC-AFC Pajim's Klondyke 3/80 3/80 Pattie E. Harper
106 FC-AFC Firebird Of Rocky-Vue 8/81 8/82 Carma C. Futhey
107 AFC Tigathoe's Choptank Child 3/80 Broughton M. & Ray Earnest
108 FC-NAFC Topbrass Cotton 5/82 9/81 Nat 6/85 Jeffrey L. & Beverly A. Finley
109 FC-AFC Topbrass Mandy 11/80 4/80 Jacquelyn & Joseph E. Mertens
110 FC-AFC Cherryhill's Rowdy Rascal 2/83 11/82 Darlene Corona
111 AFC Gold Mark Bicentennial Blue 6/83 Helen & Harvey Phillips Jr
112 AFC Goldmark's Magic Rug 5/82 Thomas N. Mundorff MD
113 AFC Huntrail's Wailin Willie 5/83 Mr. & Mrs. Richard Dresser
114 AFC Kiowa's Holiday Joy 6/83 Kenneth E. & Kathleen Gootee
115 AFC Riverview's Hawk Kiowa CD 9/82 William F. & Martha E. Lamar
116 AFC Son Of Red 10/82 Harold J. Bruninga
117 AFC Sportin' Kelty CD 8/83 Judith A. Bly
118 AFC Topbrass Gatsby 8/83 Beverly A. & Jeffrey L. Finley
119 AFC Wild Fire Of Riverview CDX 4/82 Kathleen L. Daniels
120 FC Windbreaker's Razzmatazz 9/83 Pat DeNardo
121 FC-AFC Wyngate's Sungold Sundance 10/82 3/85 Kenneth E. Gootee
122 AFC Ben's Enchanted Glory 7/84 Brian J. & Barbara L. Pashina
124 FC-AFC Stony-Brooks Gold Digger 3/85 3/85 Carol & Robert Lilenfeld
125 AFC Sungold T-Bill Sunsplasher 6/85 Mike Lauderdale & Bill Woods
126 FC-AFC Tangelo's Side Kick 9/86 5/85 Bill Woods & Terry Giffen
127 FC-AFC Windbreakers Smoke'N Zigzag 8/84 4/84 Jackie & Joseph Mertens
128 AFC Yankee's Smoke'N Red Devil 9/84 Paul Corona
129 FC-AFC Casey Two Of Fox Creek 11/86 9/87 Mrs. Maxwell L. Wood
130 AFC Cranwood's Chill Factor 4/87 Mrs. George H. Flinn Jr
131 FC-AFC Mioak's Main Event 9/87 10/86 Grayson Kelley
132 FC-AFC Shalimar Of Thorn Run 9/86 9/84 Helen & Harvey Phillips Jr
133 FC-AFC Sunfire's XX Buckshot 4/86 4/86 James P. Morgan
134 FC Topbrass Ace In The Hole 10/87 Mrs. George H. Flinn Jr
135 FC-AFC Topbrass Bandit 9/86 9/86 Harold J. Bruninga
136 FC-AFC Topbrass Windbreaker Zap 10/88 9/87 Sam Silverman
137 FC-AFC Windbreakers Mighty Mo 9/86 5/89 Stanley L. & Geraldine M. Heiner
138 FC Gian Carlo of Fox Creek 9/88 Mrs. Maxwell L. Wood
139 FC-AFC Lee's Rocky Marshwinds  5/88 5/88 Dennis Lee Courey
140 FC-AFC Sangamo Red 5/89 4/88 Harold J. Bruninga
141 FC-AFC Stony-Brooks' Jersey Devil 5/88 5/88 Robert & Marjorie Meagan
142 FC-AFC Topbrass Dustbuster 9/89 9/89 Barbara Howard
143 AFC Deerhill Iditarod 10/91 Judy Rasmuson & Ronald Wallace
144 AFC Mioak's Rain Check 2/91 Robert C. & Elizabeth T. Wilkinson
145 AFC Topbrass Gifford Of Valhaven 3/90 Mary Maurer & Kim Martin
146 AFC Topbrass Super Trooper 10/91 Darrell Frisbie
147 FC-AFC Topbrass Tyonek 10/91 10/91 Judy Rasmuson & Ronald Wallace
148 FC-AFC Valhaven Smoke'N Vindaloo 9/90 6/90 Judy Rasmuson & Ronald Wallace
149 AFC Glenhaven Devil's Advocate UDT MH WCX 2/93 Glenda Brown
150 FC-AFC Mioak's Smoke'N Zeke 9/93 5/93 William & Mary Glenn
151 AFC Topbrass Comet 10/92 Mary Maurer & Kim Martin
152 FC Mistfield Red Zinger 7/95 Geraldine Heiner
153 FC Topbrass Abilene MH 9/94 Mrs. George H. Flinn Jr
154 AFC Adair Jake Pickering CDX TD MH WCX 5/97 Jim & Kathy Pickering
155 AFC KC's Chip Of The Ole Block MH WCX 9/97 Roger Fuller
156 AFC Little Fever 10/96 Harold Bruninga & I. J. Tobin
157 FC Windbreaker's Premium Vintage 10/97 Pat DeNardo
158 AFC Rosehill's Mr Speaker 10/98 Lorie & Charles Jolly
159 AFC Wraith's Hunter's Moon Kirby MH WCX 2/99 Charles & Rosita Wraith
160 FC-CFTCh-CAFTCh Cedarpond Brasdor Skywalker 5/97 Mrs. George Flinn/J Mertens/L Halcomb
161 FC Mioak's Chunk of Gold SH 10/00 Warren & Susan Exo
162 FC-AFC-OTCh Topbrass Ascending Elijah 8/05 9/99 Connie/Brian Cleveland/ Judy Rasmuson
163 AFC Cayman's Rum Point Red 10/01 Judy & Bob Benko
164 FC-AFC Glenhaven Htrs Mn Baronet 3/02 3/02 Glenda Brown
165 AFC Honeycreek's Jammin' Jaco MH WCX 5/02 Jeff Warren & Linda Sikorowski
166 AFC Wherley's Sour Mash Can *** 6/02 Robert Wherley & Jackie Mertens
167 FC-AFC-CFTCh-CAFTCh-COTCh TNT's Explostion UD 2/06 5/03 John & Janice Gunn
168 AFC Emberain Rugby WCX 8/03 Linda Browne
169 AFC Splashdown Texas Two Stepper 9/03 Jim & Kathy Pickering
170 AFC Ida Red's Uncloudy Day 10/03 Jim & Kathy Pickering
171 AFC Topbrass Pawsability 4/04 Jackie Mertens
172 FC-AFC Emberain Beau Geste 9/04 10/06 T. Charles & Patricia Jones
173 FC Wraiths Htr Mn Bro Macdhuibh 9/04 Rosita & Charles Wraith
174 AFC Steeplehill Ranger 5/05 Judy Rasmuson & Ronald Wallace
175 AFC Emberain Good Will Hunting 6/06 Judy Rasmuson & Ronald Wallace
176 FC Porjay's Crackerjack Surpriz 8/06 Meg & Bob Beck
177 FC Topbrass Southern Breeze 9/06 Lynne Thomson
178 AFC LaCrosse Max Q Jake 3/06 Andy Whiteley & John Gassner



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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

its just sad that the golden world has lost jim pickering, 3 titled goldens in the last decade.


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Shouldn't Jake's son "Casey" be on the list?


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Codatango said:


> Shouldn't Jake's son "Casey" be on the list?


And Jester ... maybe the list was copied from a location that didn't have the newest titled dogs added yet.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Red is on the list twice....81st and 89th. Also, I thought Red had more points than FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Elmer.

Eric


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Eric Johnson said:


> FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Red is on the list twice....81st and 89th. Also, I thought Red had more points than FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Elmer.
> 
> Eric


I don't think these are in order of points. I looks like they are in chronological order.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Stanley..........


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Red is on the list twice....81st and 89th. Also, I thought Red had more points than FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Elmer.
> 
> Eric


81. when it got its AFC

89. when it got its FC

and the list is in chronological order

Trivia note : there are 11 Goldens in the RHOF , 8 males 3 females


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

mlopez said:


> I don't think these are in order of points. I looks like they are in chronological order.


The last date is in 2006.

I also find it interesting that are on this list that have also campaigned labs...


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

golden boy 2 said:


> its just sad that the golden world has lost jim pickering, 3 titled goldens in the last decade.


 
Could not agree more. Still hoping to spend some quality time with him when he comes up next summer ( hint, hint, hint )


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

golden boy 2 said:


> its just sad that the golden world has lost jim pickering


Hey, Mike, who is sad? Most of the Golden folks I know are thrilled to see me gone, and I am definitely happier being gone.

Plus I’m not lost. I know precisely where I am. From my perspective it is the GRCA and it’s collective membership who have lost their way, but that ship and crew have been drifting without a rudder for directional control for over 40 years now. The ship has finally run a ground and floundered, and I see nothing to be gained by going down with the ship. 

To be politically correct I will say that the Golden Retriever community and I have parted company on the grounds of mutual incompatibility. However, the real reason is that I believe that Melanie is still in the room.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2011)

Jim Pickering said:


> To be politically correct I will say that the Golden Retriever community and I have parted company on the grounds of mutual incompatibility. However, the real reason is that I believe that Melanie is still in the room.


I am flattered! It must take a powerful person to drive someone to make a decision like that. Thank you Jim and as always, best of luck to you and your gang.


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

Mr. Pickering posted: FC AFC Chief Sands OS FDHF, “Bozo” was apparently pro trained and handled given that he had 53 Open points and 34 Amateur points for a total of 87.

Dick Sampson was "Bozo's" breeder, but as I recall Vern Weber ran him early on (and I thought he owned him for a while). 
I don't remember when Dick turned pro, but when he came out to California (shortly before he died), he was listed as Bozo's owner and ran him in the Open at Northern Cal's Spring trial. I was so excited to see a dog that I knew from 'the old Wisconsin days' I could hardly stand it & was so looking forward to watching that big red dog. "Bozo", however had other ideas and broke on the flyer in the first series of the Open............dern!


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## dreamer2385 (Jan 21, 2007)

unforunately, the willowbrook posted is not mine...

willowbrook of NE PA,, i don't have a website and unforunately have not had the opportunity to be so lucky in developing a true breeding program as i would like to have at this point in my life... 

i am still trying and really would love to see in my life time the next dual champion!!! 

maria


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> An observation from a casual observer : most, if not all, pro trainiers and am's do not or cannot afford the extra time involved in crafting a consistent FT Golden. It seems a "churn and burn" mentality is required in high level FT competition, and most, if not all Golden owners are not willing to partake in the disposable dog program and will keep their beasts regardless. I know I am in that camp.
> 
> Coupled with a shortage of raw material, it stands to reason that the #'s will not be there.


I have spent a fair amount of time training with several pro trainers.

I would not characterize any of them as having a "churn and burn" mentality. 

I am not sure it is very productive for "casual observers" to make such sweeping conclusions.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> Golden owners ... will keep their beasts regardless. I know I am in that camp.


Golddogs, I hope your dog can't see the computer screen! Otherwise, you're now toast


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Jim Pickering said:


> Hey, Mike, who is sad? Most of the Golden folks I know are thrilled to see me gone, and I am definitely happier being gone.
> 
> Plus I’m not lost. I know precisely where I am. From my perspective it is the GRCA and it’s collective membership who have lost their way, but that ship and crew have been drifting without a rudder for directional control for over 40 years now. The ship has finally run a ground and floundered, and I see nothing to be gained by going down with the ship.
> 
> To be politically correct I will say that the Golden Retriever community and I have parted company on the grounds of mutual incompatibility. However, the real reason is that I believe that Melanie is still in the room.


...."...gone" ?

Think I missed something here..

Judy


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## Lynn (Apr 9, 2008)

In regards to why the labs seem to be more successful than goldens and why there are fewer titled field goldens now than in years gone by:

I am a newcomer to the game but think I am accurate in saying that the game favors labs. Pheasants are used much less frequently at trials now than long ago. The golden has the edge when it comes to "scenting out" the pheasants. 
At the Nationals, pheasants are used a lot and big hunts are common. But, in the local trials, pheasant use is rare, largely due to access to them and having gunners skilled enough to shoot them in an acceptable area for the fall.

As a generalization, I think labs are better naturally lining dogs than goldens.
Many, many, of the blinds being run at trials favor the dog that is very slow and lines well. Style seems to be a thing of the past in a judges book.

As someone else mentioned, there are a fair number of golden owners who run their own dogs in the Open. I, for one, find many of the blinds so long that combined with my small stature and poor eyesight, I find myself at a distinct disadvantage. 

I do think that there are many fine young goldens on the horizon of major stakes and the outlook for some goldens to title is good.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Lynn said:


> Many, many, of the blinds being run at trials favor the dog that is very slow and lines well. Style seems to be a thing of the past in a judges book.


When I first began competing in FT 12 years ago, there were several dogs with poor style.

I see very few such dogs today.

I think your generalization is inaccurate.

Ted


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## Lynn (Apr 9, 2008)

I guess I wasn't very clear, what I meant to say is that poor style does not seem to be penalized. Many blinds favor a very, slow, dog with poor style. I have seen dogs that I would have dropped for trudging out on blinds with an attitude that reads "I have to do this or I'll get creamed'. I have seen many goldens run in trials here and in Canada, and have only seen one or two were snails. These slow, unstylish dogs, line well and their slow speed allows them to negotiate many of the blinds better than a fast, stylist dog.

I wasn't around to know what kind of style dogs had years ago, but do think that blinds today favor the strong lining dog, usually labs.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I would say that there are plenty of stylish labs in FT today. And I would say the tight keyhole blinds seen in FT penalize them just as much as a stylish dog of a different breed.

I would not be so bold as to say that the blinds favor one breed over another


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I agree with Ted................

My comment on training/technology was suppose to read that "There has been good advancements in them and better dogs ARE a result".
Yrs. ago when I first started in dogs I had a an LR70(trashbreaker)that was what was around at the time.
I trained with folks that could carry a prod,bullwhip(one hand),a whistle in mouth and a transmitter in other hand.
No DVD's,CD's and only a few books.
I still think that asking Pros. from the different areas of the US and Canada would/may result in some insight. Insight from the few that have trained Goldens to an all-aged level NOT heresay or bs.

Poor style haven't heard that as an excuse for awhile.
Slow to mature? NO not today's bloodlines.Males vs. females. Males still may mature slow but..............not always.
Earl,
Can give you insight on Bozo. He ran against him.
Wayne how about you? Remember Bozo?
Sue


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## Lynn (Apr 9, 2008)

Boy, you all are tough! I never said that labs aren't stylish and certainly never implied having style would be an excuse for goldens, or labs for that matter, not titling! I was speaking to how the game may have changed in favoring the lab breed--lack of pheasants, natural lab lining ability which helps on long marks and blinds, style being less of a judged area. Whether it be a lab or a golden, I love seeing stylish dogs and dislike seeing dogs without style.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Dick Sampson was a professional dog trainer from 1976 to 1987. Bozo was born in 1966. Dick put FC-AFC on Bozo prior to going pro. I trained with Dick in the 70's and Bozo was definitely an alpha male. There was never a dog fight that Bozo didn't win. Dick always warned people to not have dogs out when he had Bozo out. Dick was an old-time trainer. On another note, people have been asking a little bit about the history of Golden Retrievers. If you look at the 1947 yearbook, you'll see an article about the divergence of the bench and field dogs. They were going to develop a system to identify talented field Goldens. In the 1950 yearbook they published the star champion system. This was from one to five stars. The three star symbol turned out to be quite popular. By the early 1970's many breeders were using the term "qualified all-age" for their three star dogs. This system is still used today as a method to identify both bitches and stud dogs. 

Jack


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Southern trials use pheasants. I have competed with two all age Goldens and mine obviously did not inherit the proverbial "Golden nose" because they hunt their little hind ends off looking for a hen pheasant in cover just like all the rest. 
A fast animated and eager competitor is amazing to watch, however, land blinds can be their nemesis and I hope for one a little slower next time.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Lynn said:


> I
> As someone else mentioned, there are a fair number of golden owners who run their own dogs in the Open.
> 
> I do think that there are many fine young goldens on the horizon of major stakes and the outlook for some goldens to title is good.


Lynn,
Where are the trials being held for the observations you have made? I have been going to field trials on the west coast since 2002, have been the f.t. secretary for 2 clubs for a number of years, and we enter 12-15 trials per year here. In our region, very few Goldens are entered in the trials and most of those are in the minor stakes. I have not seen many Goldens running in the Open and very few are handled by their owners.

The exception is John and Janice Gunn who come with their Goldens and several other Golden folks who come down from the North (their names escape me right now). Right now I don't see any young Goldens rising to the top. The last titled Goldens I have seen at west coast trials I have attended were Casey and before Casey was Meg Beck's Lulu. There could be others on the rise, but I have not seen them at the trials I attend.

I would like to know who the Goldens are and where they are running for the "outlook for some goldens to title is good" statement.

Former Golden breeder who went black,
Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Oops. Along with Casey and Lulu as titled Goldens, I have seen the Gunn's Stanley run in our trials. Sorry that I forgot to include Stanley.

Helen


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I have spent a fair amount of time training with several pro trainers.
> 
> *I would not characterize any of them as having a "churn and burn" mentality*. Let me put it a different way. A pro working for a client ( with a lab ) has a responsibilty to produce a solid winning dog. If the dog, in the opinion of the pro is not cutting it or does not seem to be, they tend to move on to another prospect. This is not 100% of the time, but is quite common. A quick look at started dogs offered for sale can confirm that.
> 
> I am not sure it is very productive for "casual observers" to make such sweeping conclusions.Views from the outside many times see things those on the inside don't or choose to ignore. Not a bad thing, from my point of view, when looking for possible reasons as to why?


Not looking to stir anything up, just my take on the subject.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Golddogs said:


> Not looking to stir anything up, just my take on the subject.


I think that your perspective is interesting. I happen to agree. And I think one thing that works against the goldens in this is, again, the numbers game. With goldens, there isn't necessarily another just waiting in the wings.


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Helen, Lynn runs her Goldens in the Open and recently won the Am at the Phoenx Retriever Trial in Niland. Judy Meyers runs her Goldens in the open and has a couple of very nice Goldens that we will hear more of. I would run Casey in the Open but do not travel far anymore. Age is catching up on me. I have never run any of my labs or goldens in a lot of Opens. I always want them to have the best chance and since the pros have more then one or two dogs they have an advantage. I did run my golden Charlie in a Canadian National and got to 3rd series. Ran lab Gus in Canadian National and got to 4 th series. Now I just try the Ams on the weekend trials.
The trial was the Southern AZ trial 11/04/11 not Phoenix.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Thanks, Annette. I will be looking up the Niland trial on EE to see who the Golden is that won the Am. Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I just looked up the Phoenix trial results on EE. Lynn's Golden did not win the Amateur. It got a JAM per Entry Express. Was it some other trial that her GR got a win?

Another Golden Lynn ran got 2nd in the Q.

Helen


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Sorry Helen it was the Southern AZ trial 11/04/11 that Lynn won the Am. I knew I handed her the BLUE Ribbon.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

One very good reason that we don't see many Goldens titling, at least on the East Coast, is the very small number of competitive dogs being campaigned by pros. Rick Roberts runs two and the only other pro-run Goldens that I can think of is one run by the Arthurs (Shag) who is nine years old and Rick Milheim who has one. Gerry Bailey runs his FC bitch in a few trials but she spends much of the year with Bill Sargenti out west. I truly wish that I could think of some pro, or amateur, trained Goldens out here who could make an impact. Maybe Judy R. or Connie C. have a dog that might fit the bill but I haven't seen them. Bev Burns, the Wattlesworth's, Elizabeth Wilson's dog Woody.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Goldenboy said:


> One very good reason that we don't see many Goldens titling, at least on the East Coast, is the very small number of competitive dogs being campaigned by pros. Rick Roberts runs two and the only other pro-run Golden that I can think of is run by the Arthurs (Shag) and who is nine years old. Gerry Bailey runs his FC bitch in a few trials but she spends much of the year with Bill Sargenti out west. I truly wish that I could think of some pro, or amateur, trained Goldens out here who could make an impact. Maybe Judy R. or Connie C. have a dog that might fit the bill but I haven't seen them. Bev Burns, the Wattlesworth's, Elizabeth Wilson's dog Woody.


your theory holds a lot of weight and is similar to one that I have...if you look at the earlier list of Golden owners, you will find some VERY PROMINENT names of the retriever world, like the Murnanes,Wallaces...these people were the primary forces in the game, both in power and influence...if todays same movers and shakers were to start having an affinity for Goldens, you might see a shift where a pro might have a truck loaded with them or an owner with multiple Golden entries..

who are todays version of Jackie Mertens or Jay and Val Walker...seems like they not only came with multiple entries, but continually had a pipeline of up and coming talent ready to assume their position


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Goldenboy said:


> One very good reason that we don't see many Goldens titling, at least on the East Coast, is the very small number of competitive dogs being campaigned by pros. Rick Roberts runs two and the only other pro-run Goldens that I can think of is one run by the Arthurs (Shag) who is nine years old and Rick Milheim who has one. Gerry Bailey runs his FC bitch in a few trials but she spends much of the year with Bill Sargenti out west. I truly wish that I could think of some pro, or amateur, trained Goldens out here who could make an impact. Maybe Judy R. or Connie C. have a dog that might fit the bill but I haven't seen them. Bev Burns, the Wattlesworth's, Elizabeth Wilson's dog Woody.


It is too bad, isn't it? I know that we see many talented goldens on the East Coast.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Lynn said:


> I guess I wasn't very clear, what I meant to say is that poor style does not seem to be penalized. Many blinds favor a very, slow, dog with poor style. I have seen dogs that I would have dropped for trudging out on blinds with an attitude that reads "I have to do this or I'll get creamed'. I have seen many goldens run in trials here and in Canada, and have only seen one or two were snails. These slow, unstylish dogs, line well and their slow speed allows them to negotiate many of the blinds better than a fast, stylist dog.
> 
> I wasn't around to know what kind of style dogs had years ago, but do think that blinds today favor the strong lining dog, usually labs.


Lynn, I understand YOU have a very nice dog. Congratulations!!!
But Goldens being handicapped for having TOO MUCH style? Really?

Tiptoeing into the water regards


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

mjh345 said:


> Lynn, I understand YOU have a very nice dog. Congratulations!!!
> But Goldens being handicapped for having TOO MUCH style? Really?
> 
> Tiptoeing into the water regards


Gonna get my popcorn to watch this show


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Gonna get my popcorn to watch this show


me too.


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Save me a seat please!


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Lynn, I understand YOU have a very nice dog. Congratulations!!!
> But Goldens being handicapped for having TOO MUCH style? Really?
> 
> Tiptoeing into the water regards


Golden owners, don't take the bait! You will only reinforce comments like this!;-)


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2011)

Well MY dog does... Not gonna touch it.


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Jay has a wonderful sense of humor. Saw some of it at trials I was running.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Lynn, I understand YOU have a very nice dog. Congratulations!!!
> But Goldens being handicapped for having TOO MUCH style? Really?
> 
> Tiptoeing into the water regards


Marc,

Should I sic Jake, Lucy, or Annie on you?:snipersmile:

As you know, not all Goldens tip toe down the yellow brick road.

Do you need a "Golden Nose" to help you find those pheasants?

John


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Folks, I had a couple more points that I wanted to add to the thread, but after my prior post I was seriously chastised by a member of the GRCA Board, my wife, so I had to back away from the computer for a bit. Still I have to play nice or else. Sorry if the pop corn goes to waste.

However, I would be remiss if I did not share this one bit of information with Gerry. There is one more excuse for why Golden Retrievers do not fair better at field trials that I heard recently which has not been mentioned in this thread. Gerry, you will definitely want to add this one to your list (post 45) of totally illogical excuses. 

This one goes something to the affect that Goldens are at a disadvantage at field trials because there is no big water in Scotland where the breed was developed. Yep, you read it correct, no big water in Scotland so the first Golden did not have to swim much. I have to call BS on this one. Everyone knows that there is at least one piece of water in Scotland large enough for the giant Lock Ness monster to have hidden for 50+ years. This excuse would be more believable it the individual had argued that the Lock Ness monster was carnivorous and had eaten all the early Goldens that got in the water.

Best of luck to all. No, make that best of luck to most of you. I will be keeping an eye out for the next Golden to close in on 100 all age point and the all time top ten.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Golddogs, I hope your dog can't see the computer screen! Otherwise, you're now toast


 
My dear Gerry, I was toast the first time I looked into those eyes and saw that devilish grin. 


They all have my number regards


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Jim.
I knew that was it. it was the dam Lochness Monster.:lol::BIG:
Sue


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Jim Pickering said:


> .
> 
> *This one goes something to the affect that Goldens are at a disadvantage at field trials because there is no big water in Scotland where the breed was developed.*
> quote]
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2011)

Sue Kiefer said:


> it was the dam Lochness Monster.:lol:


Wouldn't that make them a mixed breed and thus ineligible to run field trials?


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

don't forget mr pickering your grca dues are due Jan. 1st


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

OMG.
It was the goshdarn dangy all darn dang Lochness Monster that is responsible for eating all the Goldens in Scotland's lake.

Quote: This one goes something to the affect that Goldens are at a disadvantage at field trials because there is no big water in Scotland where the breed was developed. Yep, you read it correct, no big water in Scotland so the first Golden did not have to swim much. I have to call BS on this one. *Everyone knows that there is at least one piece of water in* *Scotland large enough for the giant Lock Ness monster to have hidden for 50+ years. This excuse would be more believable it the individual had argued that the Lock Ness monster was carnivorous and had eaten all the early Goldens that got in the water*.Quote:
Sue


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2011)

golden boy 2 said:


> don't forget mr pickering your grca dues are due Jan. 1st


I couldn't top that in a million years.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2011)

Sue Kiefer said:


> OMG.
> It was the goshdarn dangy all darn dang Lochness Monster that is responsible for eating all the Goldens in Scotland's lake.
> 
> Quote: This one goes something to the affect that Goldens are at a disadvantage at field trials because there is no big water in Scotland where the breed was developed. Yep, you read it correct, no big water in Scotland so the first Golden did not have to swim much. I have to call BS on this one. *Everyone knows that there is at least one piece of water in* *Scotland large enough for the giant Lock Ness monster to have hidden for 50+ years. This excuse would be more believable it the individual had argued that the Lock Ness monster was carnivorous and had eaten all the early Goldens that got in the water*.Quote:
> Sue


Are you for real?


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Although I strongly disagree with Jim's assessment of the GRCA, I think everyone on here has to acknowledge what Jim did for the Golden breed when he was still competing with them.

Jim trained and ran his own dogs, still does, and it is obvious, even to the most jaded eye, that he is an excellent trainer and handler no matter which breed he is running. He works very hard and the titles of his dogs reflect this.

He has produced some outstanding Goldens and his ethics regarding breeding and responsibility for the pups he produced was to the highest standard. He cared about those pups and was demanding with regard to their clearances before he allowed them to have full registration. He bred sparingly.

Although I don't live anywhere close to where he and Kathy do, I am aware that he has been very gracious with allowing others to use his grounds, train there and hold events as well, especially in regard to Golden events. 

The one time I stayed in their home, far too many years ago, it was obvious that his Goldens were family---and greatly loved. They seemed to be in my lap quite a bit and had run of the house. Both he and Kathy were outstanding as a host and hostess.

Jim has given back to the sport through judging, helping at events, and encouraging newcomers. 

Gruff tho he may be, what you see is what you get and his persona in person is the same as it is on the internet. He be what he be!

I am sure his GRCA dues for next year are already paid as his wife, Kathy, is on the Board of the same GRCA that Jim castigated. Kathy has done much for the Golden breed as well, and she continues to do so in her position as a Board member. Kathy was the one who got Jim started in Goldens by giving him Jake.

Jim has many attributes which should be emulated by some of the Golden breeders out there today. I wish you still were in our camp, Jim, and producing and running those marvelous Goldens of yours. 

Glenda


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## drdawg (Apr 4, 2004)

DITTO!
(Well stated, Glenda)
Guess you guys didn't think I was "watching?"


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

John Gassner said:


> Marc,
> 
> Should I sic Jake, Lucy, or Annie on you?:snipersmile:
> 
> ...


Brother : Please don't sic your dogs on me. They are 3 of the few Goldens that my old fat butt would have to hustle to outrun.

Besides if those vicious mutts of yours ever did catch me they might lick me to death 

You are correct not all Goldens, and certainly not yours, tiptoe down the yellow brick road. As you know I'm not much into breed stereotypes. A good dog is a good dog!! 
I'm just a little surprised that the "sensitive" Golden owners didn't rise to my bait!! Maybe stereotypes for owners aren't all that accurate either

Thanks for the offer of your "Golden Nose", but so far my Labs noses have been sufficient. They have flushed and retrieved over 3000 pheasants so far this year. Every hunter has limited out every day so far. We were in S.Dak for 3 weeks and been in Kansas since. In kansas we can shoot hens. To my great shock my labs have even been able to find those hens; even though they are deprived of that "Golden Nose"

Maybe they think they are Goldens, who "nose"?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Jim Pickering said:


> the Lock Ness monster was carnivorous and had eaten all the early Goldens that got in the water.


I always thought when the lab folks said to send the goldens into a pond to check for gators, they were just being mean. I did not know that goldens were bred to deal with carnivorous aquatic reptiles


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> who are todays version of Jackie Mertens or Jay and Val Walker...seems like they not only came with multiple entries, but continually had a pipeline of up and coming talent ready to assume their position


Marion Stroud-Swingle's parents were Golden people frist, although I believe they also had some Labs. Kippy, however, now exclusively (as far as I know) has Labs running; and there are multiple entries. I don't believe that the elder Strouds ever had as many entries as the Walkers or Jackie.

Labs have dominated in field trials as long as I can remember. It makes a lot of sense to me that anyone who is addicted to field trials will find it hard not to decide to run a Lab instead of a Golden. I can't think of many who have resisted doing that.

For those who have been successful with Goldens in field trials; or for those who have both Labs and Goldens, I'd be interested in knowing what it might be that keeps them trying with the Goldens. What differences do they find that leads them to continue keeping, and training & running, their Goldens in spite of the odds?

A pro trainer in the south told a friend that there are some people that will pay some very large bucks for a QAA Golden that shows potential for titling. If this is true,is there some mystique (for lack of a better word) that attracts even some Lab people? Or maybe it's just about having something rare?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Marion Stroud-Swingle's parents were Golden people first, although I believe they also had some Labs.


never knew Dr.Stroud to have anything but labs, but maybe jd6400 would know because his dad had quite a few of the doc's dogs on his truck, including a couple of National Finalists


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> never knew Dr.Stroud to have anything but labs, but maybe jd6400 would know because his dad had quite a few of the doc's dogs on his truck, including a couple of National Finalists


When I first met them, I thought they were Lab people as well  In later years, they used Jim Weitzel in Ohio as at least one of their trainers. 

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=236938 this was one of their later Goldens. I believe Kippy gave it to them as a gift. George was bred by Joan Ostrom (when she was still Joan Carlson, I think).

Others:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=25135
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=109684
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=265865
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=68697
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=267339


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Glenda Brown said:


> Although I strongly disagree with Jim's assessment of the GRCA, I think everyone on here has to acknowledge what Jim did for the Golden breed when he was still competing with them.
> 
> Jim trained and ran his own dogs, still does, and it is obvious, even to the most jaded eye, that he is an excellent trainer and handler no matter which breed he is running. He works very hard and the titles of his dogs reflect this.
> 
> ...


Very well put


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Great post, Glenda...

Judy


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

helencalif said:


> Lynn,
> Where are the trials being held for the observations you have made? I have been going to field trials on the west coast since 2002, have been the f.t. secretary for 2 clubs for a number of years, and we enter 12-15 trials per year here. In our region, very few Goldens are entered in the trials and most of those are in the minor stakes. I have not seen many Goldens running in the Open and very few are handled by their owners.
> 
> The exception is John and Janice Gunn who come with their Goldens and several other Golden folks who come down from the North (their names escape me right now). Right now I don't see any young Goldens rising to the top. The last titled Goldens I have seen at west coast trials I have attended were Casey and before Casey was Meg Beck's Lulu. There could be others on the rise, but I have not seen them at the trials I attend.
> ...


Hi Helen,

There are quite a few nice Golden's running up here. Ever since I can remember Judy Rasmussen has run and titled Golden's in field trials. At one point a few years ago she had four titled Golden's and one Lab a running at the same time. Judy is an excellent trainer and does a lot of training herself, but she also uses a pro to train and run her dogs as seasons change and circuits move from North to South, East to West. Her most recent FC-AFC Golden's have recently retired, but she has some very nice up and coming dogs just starting all age work now that I expect to see doing well in the future.

John


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

Maybe we can take up a collection and all chip in to give Mr Pickering a golden pup for Christmas.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

golden boy 2 said:


> Maybe we can take up a collection and all chip in to give Mr Pickering a golden pup for Christmas.


 
He could have a first crack at Butch Gregory's litter last Nov from his Chilli dog. I got a little hot rod who is growing imto a really nice dog. With Mr. Pickerings knack, I bet this little guy would be something special. Too bad he has to settle for me to train him.


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

golden boy 2 said:


> Maybe we can take up a collection and all chip in to give Mr Pickering a golden pup for Christmas.


LOL - Mike, I had no idea you were such a comedian, but thanks for the good laugh!! I realize that you are joking, but just in case there is someone out there that doesn’t get it, let’s remember that it’s the thought that counts and leave it there.


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

Golddogs, I am thinking more in the line of getting something out to the local newspaper in the $100 to $150 range.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Jim, Have a great Christmas, and I think you need a golden puppy too But not now.

The subject of why goldens aren't often in the running is one that interests a lot of people, including lab people. Some say because of water, some say that they are easier to ruin than labs so never make it, some say their nose, some say they think too much, some say just not tough enough. A majority say a combo of all of the above, politics and the owner, as it takes one that is dedicated, will not give up, has the resources, and holds the golden to a higher standard, not the "golden" standard. I agree with the knowledgeable ones, and agree with the owner part most of all. I adore my young dog, he is cute, loves birds, and loves the water. However, for the next few years he will be my barn companion, as that is what my priority is. He might see an obedience ring and a bird this winter, but not if my arena gets lights

It is interesting to watch the breedings though, for if we threw out all the ones that had issues (ie tested as a carrier for 50 million things out there)
we would have no field dogs left. Not to mention some poor breeding choices have left the true "red dogs" with nasty reputations. I will continue to pay the storage fee for Whistler's frozen knowing I will either thaw it out if I am too old to breed a litter, or breed with someone I know has the resources to sell the puppies to an appropriate home. Sigh.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

golden boy 2 said:


> Golddogs, I am thinking more in the line of getting something out to the local newspaper in the $100 to $150 range.


....here comes another FC AFC .. 

Can you get the pup to Jim's doorstep by Christmas Day?? 

Merry Christmas, "Mr Pickering" !! 

Judy


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> When I first met them, I thought they were Lab people as well  In later years, they used Jim Weitzel in Ohio as at least one of their trainers.
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=236938 this was one of their later Goldens. I believe Kippy gave it to them as a gift. George was bred by Joan Ostrom (when she was still Joan Carlson, I think).
> 
> ...


http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=25135....here's a great name for a Christmas pup!! ...just by chance already posted  

Judy


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## Lynn (Apr 9, 2008)

To add a few names to John's mention of Judy R.'s goldens being run out west and having the ability to title, John himself has two goldens of high caliber. Ron Cerf has a very nice derby dog, Carol Snodgrass has a female golden that won an Open this past year, Judy Meyers is running a good male that is on the verge, Meg Beck has a female she hopes to run in amateurs in the upcoming year as well as two puppies in the pipeline, of course, Marie Dougherty has Casey, Judy Bly is running a nice male, Pat DiNardo has a talented female as well as Tammy Zornacky and I have two males. There are others up in the Northwest and I have seen Jane Patopea running goldens in the Derby and Quals. I know there are others I have missed but, point being, these are all talented dogs who, on any given day, could walk away with a blue ribbon; we just have to keep training and trying!


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Lynn if you go back further you wil see that Judy Meyers has been mentioned as well as your winning the Am.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Of the old time greatest Golden Retrievers "Nite" is probably near the top or at the top. His accomplishments: high point derby dog, dual champion, qualified and ran in 6 National Opens. For a little hint and a great picture of the dog, look at a full-page picture in "Life" magazine, Dec. 30, 1946. You've all seen the picture of Nite jumping over a fence with a pheasant in his mouth. Now you even know his call name!

Jack


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=754

Interesting that many of the dogs in the older pedigrees died young.



Sue


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

golden boy 2 said:


> Golddogs, I am thinking more in the line of getting something out to the local newspaper in the $100 to $150 range.


 
Why not! He did it with Jake.. I like that idea.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Mr Pickering - I have had the pleasure of watching and judging a number of your gold progeny over the years. However I was very, very disappointed to read your propogation of a myth that has taken years... years I say to supress. Just when we thought it was finally put to rest YOU give it new life.

As a native Scot and swampy afficiendo I take it upon myself to defend all things gold and Hibernian. Nessie, as everyone who matters, knows is a shy and discernipng creature. Loch Ness, where she resides is in the close vicinity to Inverness and not too far from Guisachan, the one time residence of Sir Dudley Marjoribanks. Sir Dudley, or as he is better known, Lord Tweedmouth was wont to hunt grouse on the local moors. On one such occasion a bird was dropped into Loch Ness. Sir Dudley sent the very first golden for its very first water mark. The dog swam right to the bird, but just before the dog achieved the area of the fall, Nessie swam up and grabbed the dog. Despairing, his Lordship ran to the bank and was amazed to find Nessie spluttering and beating her face with her floppy little front paddles, the dog, unharmed and other than a little frazzled, none the worse for wear. Do you know how hard it is to pick hair out of your teeth when you lack fingers? From that day forth the dog would run up and down the bank before entering the water to make sure Nessie wasn't lurking, a trait unfortunately passed down through the years. And you wondered why it so hard to decheat a swamp collie?
:razz:


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I hate to disagree with most here but here goes. Mathematically if one looks at competing Goldens (as well as Chessies) The ratio of titled dogs is greater for the 2 minority breeds than labs. This was brought up a few years ago and I did the math and it was surprising. The reason it looks like Goldens are not doing well is that only 1-2% are entered in a AA stake on average per trial. Its difficult to overcome the shear number for any dog no matter the breed. 

I have talked to a few Ex Golden folks and I think one of the reasons may be the early mortality rate due mainly to cancer.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Sue Kiefer said:


> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=754
> 
> Interesting that many of the dogs in the older pedigrees died young.
> Sue


In the GRCA News article, I think either Rip or Nitro died of an infection of some sort.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Truly great story, red devil


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

red devil said:


> From that day forth the dog would run up and down the bank before entering the water to make sure Nessie wasn't lurking, a trait unfortunately passed down through the years. And you wondered why it so hard to decheat a swamp collie?
> :razz:


Thanks for the clarification, Stu. Now I understand. It is amazing how the facts can get twisted when as a story gets passed along. :razz:


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

junbe said:


> Of the old time greatest Golden Retrievers "Nite" is probably near the top or at the top. His accomplishments: high point derby dog, dual champion, qualified and ran in 6 National Opens. For a little hint and a great picture of the dog, look at a full-page picture in "Life" magazine, Dec. 30, 1946. You've all seen the picture of Nite jumping over a fence with a pheasant in his mouth. Now you even know his call name!
> Jack


http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=754

Thanks for the post, Jack. The list I posted on the first page of this thread were Goldens ranked by total all age points. Nite had 54.5 all age points verses the 100 plus of the top Field Trial Golden, but this is a bit like baseball's top home run hitter. Nite's points are all open points according to the GRCA Year Books. I assume he pre dated that Amateur stake so had he had to opportunity to run both open and amateur stakes likely his point total would have at least doubled. There is one other, FC The Golden Kid, DOB 10/21/45 that had 63.5 open points.

Getting back to Nite, he was obvilusly a show dog, note how well his front feet and ears are groomed in the photo. But also note the white blaze on his chest. The show folks today likely would not allow him in the building much less the show ring.

Thirty years after Dual Ch Nite the Golden conformation "type" had become
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=56
Charlie was certainly a gorgeous animal but I suspect had Charlie tried to clear the barbed wire fence as did Nite, not likely there would have been baby Charlies after.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Jim

It is impossible to compare dogs of the early years to the dogs today. There were so few trials, but I suppose if you looked at the statistics of points per start it would actually show how dominant some of these dogs were. Also, amateur championship points did not start until the fall of 1951. 

The Stilrovin Kennel and the Kingswere Kennel were less than 30 miles from where I live. Some interesting information that might not be well known. Nite was originally bred by Ralph Boalt (One of the Golden books I know misidentified this.). Nite was from an accidental breeding. Ralph to promote Goldens would give Golden puppies to people around Winona MN if they showed interest in dogs. Audrey Myers was a high school student when she acquired Nite and with the help of Billy Wunderlich he became the high point derby dog. Billy was from Winona MN. Both Audrey and Billy joined the Service. Billy of course came back and became a famous professional dog trainer. I found no information on what happened to Audrey after the war years. 

Ralph Boalt was employed by Mariel King, the owner of Kingswere Kennel. Kingswere Kennel had the first two dual champion Golden Retrievers, and I believe Nite was the third. It is interesting to note that Kingswere Kennel had personnal dog trainers and they included Billy Wunderlich, Dave Elliot, and Cotton Pershall. In the early 50's Charles Morgan ran their dogs and then Mariel King got completely out of dogs in the early 50's when she moved to Hawaii. Ralph Boalt and Mariel King were married for a short time in the 40's. Ralph Boalt's twin brother Ben Boalt from Milwaukee WI acquired Nite and put all of the titles on him. He used pros. Ben chaired the 1942 National Championship. He was an editor of the first magazine to publish the results of dog events "Point and Fetch." This magazine predated the Wisconsin Amateur publication "Field Trial News" in 1944. The original publication was "Field Trial News" since the Wisconsin Amateur had three divisions: the pointer division, the bird dog division, and the retriever division.

In "Point and Fetch" September 1941, Ben Boalt wrote an article "Rip--In Memory." At the time Rip died he was the high point open dog in the country. He died of a bowel obstruction and his death occurred in a few hours. It also stated that he retrieved 236 consecutive field trial birds. 

Jack


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Thanks, Jack. I will "borrow" some of your info for an article coming up on the Stilrovin Trophy and its donor, Ralph Boalt, in a future GRNews.

In the Sept/Oct '11 news, a feature was done on FC Rip; Nitro Express (Nite) and Ready Always of Marianhill. In a separate feature, Happy Thanksgiving and Stilrovin Savannah Gay were discussed.

In Nov/Dec '11 the Tigathoe Four will be featured. And in Mar/Apr '12 will be an article about Gilnockie Coquette and one of her famous sons, Dual CH Rip's Pride and will cover some of her other outstanding offspring and contain photos as well.

I am always searching for information and good stories on these great old field Goldens. There are some in "the works" right now which I hope the Golden community will enjoy. Especially looking for photos of these Goldens----hard to get them! Any help always appreciated.

Glenda


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## drdawg (Apr 4, 2004)

Just to go back to Gerry's comment about Kippy's folks, Dr. and Mrs. Stroud:
I met Doc in the Jersey Pine Barrons when watching my first field trial and ended out helping bag birds behind the line while he was judging. We became friendly and I ended up training with him and the Mrs. a few times at their farm in Delaware County, PA.
Mrs. Stroud had a beautiful Golden named George who she ran in the minor stakes for a few years; this was around 1979. The Doc would have nothing to do with the dog, but Mrs. Stroud was very attached in spite of the fact that she got a lot of ribbing because he looked like a show dog (but ran like the Doc's Labs).
And that's the truth.....


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

My comments on longevity back in the days was NOT a knock on anyone just an observation.
Also noticed that the change in ownership on a number of these dogs.
Thanks for the history lesson Jack.
Sue


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Goldenboy said:


> One very good reason that we don't see many Goldens titling, at least on the East Coast, is the very small number of competitive dogs being campaigned by pros. Rick Roberts runs two and the only other pro-run Goldens that I can think of is one run by the Arthurs (Shag) who is nine years old and Rick Milheim who has one. Gerry Bailey runs his FC bitch in a few trials but she spends much of the year with Bill Sargenti out west. I truly wish that I could think of some pro, or amateur, trained Goldens out here who could make an impact. Maybe Judy R. or Connie C. have a dog that might fit the bill but I haven't seen them. Bev Burns, the Wattlesworth's, Elizabeth Wilson's dog Woody.


Gunzer has been running a few Goldens I believe.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Goldenboy said:


> One very good reason that we don't see many Goldens titling, at least on the East Coast, is the very small number of competitive dogs being campaigned by pros. Rick Roberts runs two and the only other pro-run Goldens that I can think of is one run by the Arthurs (Shag) who is nine years old and Rick Milheim who has one. Gerry Bailey runs his FC bitch in a few trials but she spends much of the year with Bill Sargenti out west. I truly wish that I could think of some pro, or amateur, trained Goldens out here who could make an impact. Maybe Judy R. or Connie C. have a dog that might fit the bill but I haven't seen them. Bev Burns, the Wattlesworth's, Elizabeth Wilson's dog Woody.


........."who could make an impact"...

I think, know of actually, that there are Golden Retrievers out this way that could definitely "make an impact", that are actually training and trialing. ...if given the opportunity by the right handler, amateur or pro. 

All has to come together not only in training....but also on the mat and in the field trialing as everyone knows. 

It is not only the retriever that is accountable for outstanding performance to "make an impact"...

Judy


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

There were 20 Goldens with Derby points in 2011 ... that is really a bumper year. 

By next fall we may begin to see how they will do at the next level. Topbrass Carefree Copper took a 2nd in the Derby at the National Spec, and also a RJAM in the Qual ... so maybe we may not have to wait for a whole year to see some of these young dogs progressing.

While Derby doesn't necessarily mean the dogs are all good enough to progress, if it's a game of numbers, then there may be more than usual progressing from this group graduating from Derby?


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## Paula Richard (Jun 18, 2004)

Glenda Brown said:


> Thanks, Jack. I will "borrow" some of your info for an article coming up on the Stilrovin Trophy and its donor, Ralph Boalt, in a future GRNews.
> 
> In the Sept/Oct '11 news, a feature was done on FC Rip; Nitro Express (Nite) and Ready Always of Marianhill. In a separate feature, Happy Thanksgiving and Stilrovin Savannah Gay were discussed.
> 
> ...


Not sure if this link was posted yet, but Jack mentioned Life Magazine Dec. 1946. Here is an article. http://books.google.com/books?id=ZU0EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA28&dq=red retriever&pg=PA28#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Thanks for posting the link Paula.


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## Paula Richard (Jun 18, 2004)

Annette said:


> Thanks for posting the link Paula.


 
Your very welcome!!!


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Just got done reading this thread and wanted to thank Golden Boy 2 for posting the FC-AFC list. It really got me to feeling old. Back in the 80's out on the West Coast when I first entered this sport there were many fine retrievers in this sport. From the Kannonball Kates, Jamimah Super Cake, Trieven Butch, just to name a few. There was also a lot of Golden Retrievers in this sport that never recieved the due that they rightfully deserved. It always struck me as being a strange arrangment.

Back in those days their was always a few Golden's hanging around the last series that were really nice animals. From Southern Cal to Washington state there was more than just a couple of Goldens running trials. Don't remember all the names except for the ones in the NorCal area where I was from. There was a real crop of Golden trainers and handlers in the Nor Cal area. These people did much more than there fair share of working and putting on trials. There were many people that I trained and trialed with. Bill and Terry Woods, Rosietta Wraigth Suzanne Burr, Ed Riska, Mike Hoy, Linda Brown, Henry Hayes, Nancy Ford, Meg Beck, and even Melinie Foster just to mention a few. These people all ran very competitive dogs. I'm sure that there were just as many Golden people running competitive dogs in other parts of the country.

One thing that I learned from most of these people is that it is much more to do about the breed than it is about the winning. Don't get me wrong they all have the desire to win and compete at trials. But these people know more about Golden Retrievers, there genetics, breeding, raising, health issues etc
than most Lab people. Most of these people play with the dogs that they have. They are not into buying and selling dogs just to compete. Most competitive lab people on the other hand if they plan on sticking around this sport go thru a lot of dogs to find one that they can compete with. Maybe one reason for the bigger success rate of the lab. Also the success rate of individules who always seem to have competitive dogs running and young ones on the way up.

Just food for thought. Thanks again to Golden Boy 2. Back in the mid 80's Jerry Patopea had a Golden Male, Windbreakers Mighty Mo who accumulated 94 1/2 AA points thru 85-90. Overall I think he had around 130AA points. Jerry also compained a lab named Ace's High who during the same time frame accumulated 102 AA points. Over all I think he had around 330 plus or minus.
How many points would Mo have had if Willy hadn't been on the same truck?
Also back in the same time frame there was another Golden running that wasn't exactly chopped liver, Tangelo's Sidekick. Partner during the same time frame accumulated 125AA points. These three dogs butted heads at many of the same trials throughout the same time frame.

Just food for thought.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Barry said:


> Just got done reading this thread and wanted to thank Golden Boy 2 for posting the FC-AFC list. It really got me to feeling old. Back in the 80's out on the West Coast when I first entered this sport there were many fine retrievers in this sport. From the Kannonball Kates, Jamimah Super Cake, Trieven Butch, just to name a few. There was also a lot of Golden Retrievers in this sport that never recieved the due that they rightfully deserved. It always struck me as being a strange arrangment.
> 
> Back in those days their was always a few Golden's hanging around the last series that were really nice animals. From Southern Cal to Washington state there was more than just a couple of Goldens running trials. Don't remember all the names except for the ones in the NorCal area where I was from. There was a real crop of Golden trainers and handlers in the Nor Cal area. These people did much more than there fair share of working and putting on trials. There were many people that I trained and trialed with. Bill and Terry Woods, Rosietta Wraigth Suzanne Burr, Ed Riska, Mike Hoy, Linda Brown, Henry Hayes, Nancy Ford, Meg Beck, and even Melinie Foster just to mention a few. These people all ran very competitive dogs. I'm sure that there were just as many Golden people running competitive dogs in other parts of the country.
> 
> ...


Barry, thanks for writing that. Your observation about golden folks being more prone to running the dog they have no matter the ceiling is right on, at least with me. I have gone through a number of Goldens, with each one starting at seven weeks and running them as as long as they enjoyed it. My first dog was hunt test only and got us hooked on the sport, he became a master hunter. After that we trained for field trials first but would drop back to Master Hunter if we felt the dog wasn't up to all age test. I learned more as I trained and trialed and am by nature pretty competitive, but for Cheryl and I, it was for the dog first. As long as the dog was enjoying training and running, we trained and ran, regardless of whether we felt the dog was competitive or not, and we stuck with that dog for the life of the dog.

John


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks for posting the link. It is so much fun to read and see the old field trials.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Barry, thanks for writing that. Your observation about golden folks being more prone to running the dog they have no matter the ceiling is right on, at least with me. I have gone through a number of Goldens, with each one starting at seven weeks and running them as as long as they enjoyed it. My first dog was hunt test only and got us hooked on the sport, he became a master hunter. After that we trained for field trials first but would drop back to Master Hunter if we felt the dog wasn't up to all age test. I learned more as I trained and trialed and am by nature pretty competitive, but for Cheryl and I, it was for the dog first. As long as the dog was enjoying training and running, we trained and ran, regardless of whether we felt the dog was competitive or not, and we stuck with that dog for the life of the dog.
> 
> John


This has been such a great thread to follow with so many good posts, but I think a lot of people can relate to your & Barry's posts (wonderful reading about great Goldens from someone who was there!!)referencing that their dog isn't a commodity and training/running is as much about the dog enjoying it as it is about accolades. You dance with the one that brought ya!!

M


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2011)

Barry said:


> One thing that I learned from most of these people is that it is much more to do about the breed than it is about the winning. Don't get me wrong they all have the desire to win and compete at trials. But these people know more about Golden Retrievers, there genetics, breeding, raising, health issues etc
> than most Lab people. Most of these people play with the dogs that they have. They are not into buying and selling dogs just to compete. Most competitive lab people on the other hand if they plan on sticking around this sport go thru a lot of dogs to find one that they can compete with. Maybe one reason for the bigger success rate of the lab. Also the success rate of individules who always seem to have competitive dogs running and young ones on the way up.


Hi Barry. Long time no see.  I was trying to avoid getting back on this thread but happened to talk with John Robinson today and he mentioned your post so had to come check it out.

You are right on as far as the mindset of many (most?) Golden owners. A friend of mine asked me just earlier this week what I thought the biggest difference was between Labs and Goldens and why more Goldens are not competitive. My first response was not anything about the difference between the breeds themselves....first thing out of my mouth was "the owners."

If you make your way back down here any time in the near future, you may see my Jump who is now with Billy. But oh how we still miss Rev.


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

Melanie, 

I am a fairly new Golden owner and would like to know what you think are different about them as related to Labrador owners. 

Thanks,

Jan Connolly


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2011)

J Connolly said:


> Melanie,
> 
> I am a fairly new Golden owner and would like to know what you think are different about them as related to Labrador owners.
> 
> ...


Hey Jan,

I don't think I could sum it up much better than what Barry said in the paragraph I quoted. Pretty insightful for "a Lab guy." ;-):razz::razz:


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

Thank you for an excellent post, Barry. Boy, you sure brought back a bunch of memories for me. You're right, there were a lot of really good goldens running 'in those days' and some of them didn't always get "the due they rightfully deserved. I won't go witch hunting because what's done is done and nothing can change that. 

I can only speak for myself, but like anyone running a trial, I'd like to win--heck of a lot more fun than going out in any series, but I so enjoyed watching my dogs do what they loved to do--that was always paramount. One thing for sure, Nell and Apache LOVED what they did, but Nell always did things her way. Every now and again when we trained together, you'd yell at me, "Why'd you let her do that????" Remember? And, I'd just shake my head--it wasn't what I wanted her to do, but she could be wonderful to watch when she was "on". Most golden owners don't sell their started or trial dogs. They're too hard to come by and we've always been very attached to our dogs--they really are family.

BTW, Barry had a really wonderful FC/AFC lab who I would have stolen if I could have gotten away with it. I would have dyed him red, knitted little feathers for his legs and tail--then I could have run him as a fluffy.

Merry Christmas,
Suzanne B


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

Thanks Melanie. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

This has been a great thread. Thanks everyone! Now I sit and twiddle my thumbs and hope my field issue GRNews comes today


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Barry brought back good times for me as well. That was the time when I was running my first real trial dog Go With Gusto. Babara and Tommy Williams sold me Barb's pup Gus as my Golden spirit had juvenile cataract and vision wasn't good enough for triasl. She ran hunt test. Gus qualified for 5 US Nationals and was a finalist in 3. Qualified for 4 Canandian Nationals and finished 2. I ran him in 3rd and went 4. He ended career at 11 with FC. FTCH, AFTCH and needed 3 pts for his AFC. Those were the fun days traveling and trialing!


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Yes, I am enjoying this thread too! And I got my GRCA Field Issue yesterday. I scanned it cover-to-cover IMMEDIATELY! Lots of great articles and super collections of goldens from member clubs and training groups.

The committee and all contributers are really outdoing themselves. And there is a particularly outstanding layout for the "Mission Valley" (Montana) training group! A model for others to follow.

Ok, Glenda, Norcal GRC will put something in again next year. Having a baby dog (as of Jan 21) will give me some time - I hope!

Debbie Tandoc
Norcal GRC Field VP


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Hope mine comes today.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> Most competitive lab people on the other hand if they plan on sticking around this sport go thru a lot of dogs to find one that they can compete with. Maybe one reason for the bigger success rate of the lab. Also the success rate of individules who always seem to have competitive dogs running and young ones on the way up.


A tremendous insight, Barry! 

Several "clues" from others leading up to this, but you put it in a nutsell.

I've had a couple of friends who had "nice working" Goldens, that were offered promising young Labs, but turned the offers down because they were interested in going to their limits with a Golden, not a Lab. Not that they don't respect & admire the Labs, as anyone who participates in FTs & watches the Labs work has to respect their ability, just wasn't THEIR cup of tea.


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

I guess I like both breeds. I got my next Golden Charlie a littermate to Kirby sired by Duncan. I also had many good times with Charlie. He and Gus were great firiends. After I moved to AZ Charlie became ill and died and Gus left a bit later. Both of them broke my heart. Charlie did have a second in the Open. It took 8 years before I got my next golden Casey and he was most definetly worth waiting for. In the meantime I had some fun Labs. Spring is now going on 16 and Lightning is only going on 8 but doesn't want to trial anymore so he is keeping Spring company. I don't just get rid of them either.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Annette said:


> Barry brought back good times for me as well. That was the time when I was running my first real trial dog Go With Gusto. Babara and Tommy Williams sold me Barb's pup Gus as my Golden spirit had juvenile cataract and vision wasn't good enough for triasl. She ran hunt test. Gus qualified for 5 US Nationals and was a finalist in 3. Qualified for 4 Canandian Nationals and finished 2. I ran him in 3rd and went 4. He ended career at 11 with FC. FTCH, AFTCH and needed 3 pts for his AFC. Those were the fun days traveling and trialing!


Good reading, Annette! ..along with your next post as well....

You sure hit the jackpot with Casey!!  

Judy

Edit: Actually, you hit the jackpot with all your retrievers..but the success continues!


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Codatango said:


> Yes, I am enjoying this thread too! And I got my GRCA Field Issue yesterday. I scanned it cover-to-cover IMMEDIATELY! Lots of great articles and super collections of goldens from member clubs and training groups.
> 
> The committee and all contributers are really outdoing themselves. And there is a particularly outstanding layout for the "Mission Valley" (Montana) training group! A model for others to follow.
> 
> ...


Got mine today. Is an awesome issue. Great articles. Great history and facts. Great ads. Thanks to Sylvia and Glenda, and all who contributed, and wrote articles, and sent in ads. And, yes, I think this publication just keeps getting better and better. Good articles by RTF's own, Ted Shih, John Robinson, Kristie Wilder, Dawn Terrill, Gerry Clinchy, Sharon Van Der Lee, Diane Glassmeyer, and Dennis Voight, Bill Hillman, Glenda Brown and Pat Sadler, Judy Rasmussen, if I'm missing anybody it's not on purpose, it's just that packed full of stuff! 
And, did I mention what a good, strong hugger Glenda is?  Gotta good grip for a little chick.


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Mine didn't come.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Bait said:


> ! ........
> And, did I mention what a good, strong hugger Glenda is?  Gotta good grip for a little chick. ............


Well  .....she had plenty to hug on to!!! LOL 

Merry Christmas, "Bait" !

Judy


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Judy Chute said:


> Well  .....she had plenty to hug on to!!! LOL
> 
> Merry Christmas, "Bait" !
> 
> Judy


Thanks, Judy! Merry Christmas to you too. ....And, yes she did!


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

I pay extra to get my journal, so it comes a little early. I'd like to know when the others come, so I know if I'm wasting my money. If it's just 2 weeks earlier, it might not be worth it.

Debbie Tandoc


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm usually among the last to get mine. I'm in PA. I guess I'll see it at the beginning of January?

I usually get mine at the end of the issue's dating ... i.e. get Nov/Dec issue at the end of December or early January. Not usually as long as 2 wks into the following month though.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

My issue is not here yet. Use regular shipping so later delivery is to be expected and is much like Gerry's. 

However, waiting with.... "Baited" breath ....LOL.. on this issue!

Judy


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

I hope mine gets here before I head to Niland,CA!


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Annette said:


> I hope mine gets here before I head to Niland,CA!


Marie, I got mine yesterday so you should be getting yours real soon. Great issue!


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Thanks Arlene ,I hope so


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> Good articles by RTF's own, Ted Shih, John Robinson, Kristie Wilder, Dawn Terrill, Gerry Clinchy, Sharon Van Der Lee, Diane Glassmeyer, and Dennis Voight, Bill Hillman, Glenda Brown and Pat Sadler, Judy Rasmussen


Actually, Bait, I didn't write an article, I just helped Glenda collect the stories from the dogs' owners. We're hoping more people will send their stories for future issues.

Wonder why you got yours in NJ, but not here in PA yet! I had been thinking that if the printer is in CA, that was why some in CA and AZ had already gotten theirs. Have you been bribing the mailman, Bait?


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

I still don't have mine! And, I pay for first class. But for some reason (zip code?) I get a lot of magazines after everyone else. I probably have every word in the Field Theme Issue memorized as they have been proofed so much, and I have the pdfs, but I really like to see it all come together in magazine form.

For those of you who really enjoy this issue, please let the GRCA Board and Sylvia know how much you appreciate the support now being given to the field community. The more they know what a large segment of the Golden family we represent, the more likely they are to be receptive to and continue to promote the field venues. Sylvia has been extremely supportive right from the first Field Theme Issue five years ago and of the all the field articles sent in for the other issues. She can shake the retriever belongs attached to Golden pom poms with the best of them! The GRCA has a treasure in her. 

Gerry is being modest as the "Life Is A Bitch" segment was her idea, I just pitched in helping her collect the stories. Hope you enjoy them as much as I did----would laugh out loud when reading them. Please send your "bitch" stories to Gerry as we would love this to become an on going feature.

If you have any ideas for articles, suggestions as to how the field segments could be improved, and especially information on some of the great field Goldens in the past, please let me know----- [email protected].

There are, what I consider, some great articles coming in 2012. But---there is always room held for those special articles that just cry out to be included. Many of the pros have been very gracious in allowing me to submit articles which they have written. 

Thanks to all of you who have been so supportive, have contributed articles and information, and who have encouraged others to begin field work with their Goldens.

Merry Christmas and a Golden New Year ---- Glenda


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Actually, Bait, I didn't write an article, I just helped Glenda collect the stories from the dogs' owners. We're hoping more people will send their stories for future issues.
> 
> Wonder why you got yours in NJ, but not here in PA yet! I had been thinking that if the printer is in CA, that was why some in CA and AZ had already gotten theirs. Have you been bribing the mailman, Bait?


Gotta treat your mailman right.  We're buddies!  Although we do pay the extra for first class mailing. And, yeah Glenda seems to know how to/ who to get these stories and info from. Thank you for helping. Seems like these field theme issues have really snowballed into something great. Thanks again to all who contribute.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Glenda, we were writing at the same time.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> Please send your "bitch" stories to Gerry as we would love this to become an on going feature.


LOL! Just think that we should all have as good a sense of humor as our dogs do


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## SusanF (Jul 24, 2005)

I just got mine today. I am sure looking forward to reading it tonight while waiting for Santa! It looks GReat! And so much color - Glenda, do you know, does this issue have the most color advertising of the year?


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

I would have to check with Sylvia and will do so after Christmas. I know it has a lot of color used and came up with some fantastic ads. I am thrilled with how many Clubs and individuals participated.

When the first Field Theme Issue came out in 2007, after I had been told field persons don't take out ads, I really beat the drums and rallied the troops and we had the most ads of any issue that year, and considerably more than the closest issue to us.

I have even had some conformation judges comment on how great it is to see the field dogs, especially in action, compared to page after page of ones standing there looking for their piece of liver! The printer wrote to Sylvia and told her that the ones in his company working on the issue loved it. Many are hunters and thoroughly enjoyed seeing working retrievers.

Many thanks to the Clubs----and I will be nagging them again about March! It is so rewarding to see the members of various clubs and training groups get together to do an ad.
Especial thanks to all of you individuals who took out ads this year. I know you can't always do it each year, but whenever you do, it is greatly appreciated. And, wow do those Goldens in the ads look good. If we stick together, we can rule the world!

Glenda


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## Judy Myers (Feb 15, 2009)

Since my issue is forwarded from WA to wherever I am, I always get mine late. Still waiting. But I know it's going to be great. Glenda, you are awesome!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

We all owe a lot to Glenda for pioneering and nurturing "the field issue". Not to mention the field articles throughout the year. Never remember there being so much space devoted to the field Goldens over the many years I've been a member of GRCA.

Glenda & Sylvia are both "national treasures" for sure!


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## SusanF (Jul 24, 2005)

And... just read that Glenda has been awarded the Vern Bower award from the GRCA! Congratulations!


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

SusanF said:


> And... just read that Glenda has been awarded the Vern Bower award from the GRCA! Congratulations!


Congratulation Glenda!! This award was custom made for you:
VERN BOWER HUMANITARIAN AWARD 
In 1989, the GRCA Board of Directors approved the Vern Bower Humanitarian Award for the purpose of recognizing those who have made exemplary contributions to the Golden Retriever, with the prerequisite being a selfless devotion to our breed. 

Glenda is one of those people who, while she has accomplished so much with her own dogs, doesn't have a caste system approach to how she treats people. For those new to the sport, she always has an encouraging word, advice and a "You can do this and I'm behind you" attitude. Regardless of how many people she is in contact with, you know she is in the moment and really paying attention to what you're saying and cares about helping you and your dog.

Most importantly-she truly loves the breed and wants to be a part of fostering Goldens God given talents and seeing that "retriever" isn't just a word that comes after Golden, but that intelligent, driven, birdy, dogs are valued for their role as true hunting dogs and field trial/hunt test competitors. She's really rallied the troops too so that the GRNews reflects this.

Congrats again Glenda!! Look forward to hopefully meeting and training with you this year!!

M & Finn


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Congratulations Glenda on the Vern Bower award. Well deserved Glenda. Thanks for all you do for the breed.


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## jgrammer (Jun 23, 2008)

Congratulations, Glenda, on an award well deserved! And thank you for all you do in promoting the retriever in golden retriever. Hope more find out how much fun doing field with their golden can be. And, can't wait to get my Field issue of GRNews!!


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

What award did Mr. Pickering win?? Surely he got something............


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Congratulations Glenda!! You deserve that award, and more. Your help and encouragement is appreciated more than you know.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Annette said:


> Congratulations Glenda on the Vern Bower award. Well deserved Glenda. Thanks for all you do for the breed.


You bet! Congrats, Glenda! And, Thanks for all you do. Very inspiring person. Nice to have you on our team!


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

I can't say enough good things about Glenda and her commitment to the breed, particularly those of us who are lucky to have offspring of her boys, Bart and Luke. She has been a mentor to me from the very beginning and, since, has been a highly valued sounding board every step of the way. I'm always taken aback by her sincerity, genuine interest, and the depth of her involvement in our every question or concern. She's opened a lot of doors for me and I'm forever grateful. 

They couldn't have chosen a more deserving recipient.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

As great as the Vern Bower award is I wish there was more we could give Mrs. Glenda. You are THE BEST!!!
Your fan (one among many),
Becky


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Congratulations Glenda. An award so well deserved by such a hard working lady to keep all of our field goldens in the spotlight. I am so pleased to see this tribute given to such a deserving lady. So happy for you.

Arleen


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Congrads!!!!!!!!!!!
Sue


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## sammydog (Jul 11, 2008)

*Congratulations Glenda!* This award describes you perfectly: "recognizing those who have made exemplary contributions to the Golden Retriever, with the prerequisite being a selfless devotion to our breed". I am always in shock and awe at how many people you are personally in contact with, helping and mentoring. I am thrilled to have had the opportunity to meet, talk and email with you. I love my little Bart girl!

I have not received my GRNews yet, but I am running to the mail daily! The field issue is by far my favorite! Thank you to Sylvia, Glenda and all others who I am sure spend countless hours putting this together.

Jessica and Mira


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## goldngirl (Nov 10, 2009)

Congratulations Glenda!


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## jluther (Jul 18, 2005)

Got my copy of the GR News field issue the other day. The big problem is that it causes itching. I don't get how I'm expected to sit still to read it and not call it torture. If you live in the frozen north, without much hope of hunting or serious training for months, I urge you not to open your copy when it arrives. The field issue is nothing more than a horrible tease. (Thanks, Glenda!)
_________________________
Julie

Traveler - UH HR Gaylan's One With the Wind UD MH WCX OA NAJ VCX CCA (2011 MN Qualifier)
Piney - UH Truline Rio's Pine Creek SH WCX


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

got mine today, AWESOME issue!! The best ever! Great articles, fantastic photos.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Becky Mills said:


> As great as the Vern Bower award is I wish there was more we could give Mrs. Glenda. You are THE BEST!!!
> Your fan (one among many),
> Becky


One more..among many...with Congratulations!! ..."You are THE BEST!!!"...for sure. 

Judy, "Ranger", ..and "Sebec", Too!


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

I got my issue! I got my issue! WHOOPEEEEE!!!!! GREAT STUFF!!!!


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Still hasn't come. If it doesn't get here tomorrow it may not get forwarded to Niland. I have had magazine returned to sender.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

And some great ads that you did in there, too! Thanks!!!



Furball said:


> I got my issue! I got my issue! WHOOPEEEEE!!!!! GREAT STUFF!!!!


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Fantastic issue this time. Always good but this one was the best. 

Also found it to be unusually coincidental that under New Master Hunters, of which there were 6 this time, the second page was of two dogs named Rebel, both were handled by Jeff Jordan of Intrepid Retrievers, both were born in 2006, both born on the 7th of the month. The difference being that one was born in April and the other in July. 

Arleen


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## drdawg (Apr 4, 2004)

Still waiting for my issue, but I will join the Glenda admiration society and offer GReat big congrats to GLENDA. Who seems tireless in promoting our breed in it's natural environment...the field.
THANKS GLENDA!


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## drdawg (Apr 4, 2004)

WOOWEE! Got it in today's mail. So what a great cover shot (even though it is one of our dogs) that John Robinson has been running in All Age Field Trials and well as picking up some meat in the off season. Alex has turned into quite a hunk! Love his intensity!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Got mine today ... 6 days after Bait's 1st class delivery. I think someone asked about the difference in time between regular delivery & 1st class. Bait is in NJ, and I'm in PA, a couple of hours away.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Just got mine yesterday...first class also. Loved the articles by John, Judy, and Tigathoes history seeing old pictures of new friends. My only dissappointment is having" Pixie" again overlooked for her 4th place Open placement on the field trial stats page. It happened in June and still hasn't made the list!


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## jgrammer (Jun 23, 2008)

Got mine yesterday and what a nice cover shot of John's Alex! The field issue just keeps getting better and better! Thanks to all that make it possible. OK, back to reading it .


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## goldngirl (Nov 10, 2009)

Aw Bev......but we know how wonderful and great your Pixie is tho! But she needs her due that is for sure! Such a good and talented girl!

Michelle & Dixie Darlin'


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## Paula Richard (Jun 18, 2004)

Nothing yet


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Paula Richard said:


> Nothing yet


Patience Paula.

A funny aside. I hate my mailman and never give him a Christmas gift. However, I just gave him a card and a $20 bill and wished him a Merry Christmas. Guess whose magazines are no longer damaged upon delivery and seem to be coming in a more timely fashion. Lucky thing---I would have flipped if this Field Issue were damaged.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Paula Richard said:


> Nothing yet


Same here... ......were you good to your mailman at Christmas?...seems it pays..to pay!!!  

Judy


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

If anyone would like to borrow me their copy to look at..................;-)
Just saying..................
Thanks!!
Sue


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## Paula Richard (Jun 18, 2004)

gdgnyc said:


> Patience Paula.
> 
> A funny aside. I hate my mailman and never give him a Christmas gift. However, I just gave him a card and a $20 bill and wished him a Merry Christmas. Guess whose magazines are no longer damaged upon delivery and seem to be coming in a more timely fashion. Lucky thing---I would have flipped if this Field Issue were damaged.


So that's the deal. I wonder if i am too late to give my mail man a Christmas gift.  It probably wouldn't hurt.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Paula Richard said:


> So that's the deal. I wonder if i am too late to give my mail man a Christmas gift.  It probably wouldn't hurt.


I had to read this a couple of times. Oh, behave!


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## Paula Richard (Jun 18, 2004)

gdgnyc said:


> I had to read this a couple of times. Oh, behave!


 
Never. Got to start the New Year right and mis-behave!!


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

Paula Richard said:


> So that's the deal. I wonder if i am too late to give my mail man a Christmas gift.  It probably wouldn't hurt.


Please do something to get that issue....
I need to know what is up with the pics you sent in,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Paula Richard said:


> Never. Got to start the New Year right and mis-behave!!


You gotta do...what you gotta do!! 

Happy New Year, Paula!!

Judy


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## Paula Richard (Jun 18, 2004)

Judy Chute said:


> You gotta do...what you gotta do!!
> 
> Happy New Year, Paula!!
> 
> Judy


Hey Judy: You would know!!! lol

Did not get the GR News today either!! 

Happy New Year to you as well.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Naughty girls!!!!!


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Freya---the photos that Paula sent in are in an article! Great article by Dawn. Enjoy!

Glenda


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Glenda Brown said:


> Freya---the photos that Paula sent in are in an article! Great article by Dawn. Enjoy!
> 
> Glenda


I wanted to tell them, but was holding on to the suspense.  Was a good article. Actually many good ones in this issue. Really liked John Robinson's too! Good job, John! And loved that cover pic too!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Marcia Schlehr sent me this additional historical info on Rip:
---------
Winona was, in the 1940s-50s, a town with probably more Goldens per capita than any other place in the US, with the Twin Cities area next! Ralph himself never kept a large number of dogs, but "farmed out" quite a few, as Jack indicates. 

Ralph and Ben were brothers to both Mrs. Sam Magoffin and to Mrs. Henry Christian of the Goldwood Kennels; the Christians' daughter Peggy (Mrs Frank) Hilton kept Goldwood running as a boarding facility (they did have a dog in field trials but now the Goldens are just house dogs) and now their son and his wife run it -- probably one of the oldest continuously operating kennels in this country. Goldwood is in White Bear Lake, now a northern suburb of Minneapolis. 

Mariel King also had some top-winning Pekingese (of all things!). Quite a wealthy woman; inherited from her father, I think. Interesting bits about her in a Pekingese book that I have. 

Ralph was a naval officer in WWII. If Nite's litter was accidental, it was also providential-- just check out the others from that breeding! Unfortunately, Nite went sterile at a very young age, but the siblings more than made up for that.

Rip qualified for the first National FT in 1941, but died not long before the event. [She said she heard some speculation about his cause of death, but couldn't be certain, so asked me to delete the speculative reasons she'd heard, since she couldn't be sure they would be fact.] He was barely 6 years old. 

His owner, Paul Bakewell III, was still listed as a judge into the 1970s or even later, although I don't think he actually judged much. I have several photos of Rip, including puppy pictures. He was the last pup to be sold in that litter bred by John Wallace (St Louis area) , out of imported parents. And one of the first to be successfully run by his amateur owner


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## Jerry and Freya (Sep 13, 2008)

Glenda Brown said:


> Freya---the photos that Paula sent in are in an article! Great article by Dawn. Enjoy!
> 
> Glenda[/QUO
> Thanks Glenda and a very Happy and most Healthy New Year to you and yours.
> ...


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Marcia Schlehr sent me this additional historical info on Rip:
> ---------
> Winona was, in the 1940s-50s, a town with probably more Goldens per capita than any other place in the US, with the Twin Cities area next! Ralph himself never kept a large number of dogs, but "farmed out" quite a few, as Jack indicates.
> 
> ...


Great reading, Gerry! Wonder if Glenda has those photos of Rip..includijng puppy pictures!

Happy New Year by the way!

Judy


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

The photos I have of Rip basically appeared in the S/O '11 issue of the GRNews---or at least those photos that could be reproduced. Some are just too dark or old and even Sylvia's magic doesn't get them to work.

Gerry, where were you when I needed you? We will talk!

Again, if I get any more info on Goldens that have already been covered, can do some follow-up features. After the Tigathoe 4, came up with some tidbit type of info I didn't have at the time it was written up.

Glenda


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Gradually working my way through the News.

Great articles by Dennis Voight and Bill Hillman. Both have a lot to offer to people at any stage in their venture into field work. Hillman's article was brief but said a LOT!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Some statistics in line with this topic ... from the GRCA News article on "The Tigathoe Four". 

For those who may not know, the breeding of Tigathoe's Chickasaw & FC-AFC-CFC Bonnie Brooks Elmer was done 2X. Nothing much, it appears, came from the first breeding in 1969. The 2nd litter was whelped in Nov. 1971. That litter produced 4 FC-AFCs, one of those being Dual CH Quar. (Tigathoe's Funky Farquar, Tigathoe's Magic Marker, Tigathoe's Kiowa II, and Tigathoe's Tonga). Also, from the same litter were 2 *** dogs (Jicarilla & Misty Morning) and one ** (Tonka). There has not been any other litter in Goldens that produced this many FC-AFCs. Both Quar and sister, Chick, finished their FC-AFC titles by the time they were 4 years old; Quar just before he turned 4.

Referring to k9data, it appears that Elmer had sired 2 other litters in 1969, 2 in 1970, and 1 earlier in 1971. k9data shows a total of 20 Elmer litters (including the 2 mother Chick litters). None of Elmer's other litters approached the level of his combo with mother Chick. Only one other litter is shown for mother Chick (gets confusing since dam and one of the daughters both were called Chick)

Elmer had "near normal" hips per OFA. Today that would be "borderline". Torch indicated that she did not breed him until after he had all his titles. At that point, she believed it was worth seeing how he would produce.

Judy Rasmusson provided these statistics for the article: (as of April 2009)
Tigathoe's Magic Marker is still the #1 Golden female with combined Open & Amateur points total: 117 She is #8 among all Goldens. She is #5 in Amateur points earned, 78. 

Tigathoe's Tonga is #15 with 90-1/2 points. He is #9 in Amateur pts, 69-1/2
Tigathoe's Kiowa II is # 29 with 68 points. He is #12 in Amateur pts, 56-1/2
Tigathoe's Funky Farquar is #42 with 51 points. He wass Top Derby Dog in 1971 (all breeds) w/51 points; and #3 in the list of Top Derby pointed Goldens.

None of these owners had ever placed a dog in licensed trials prior to owning these dogs. (quoting Pat Sadler in the article) They did get assistance from experienced trialers and pros. Tonga's owner, Ray Earnest (that's a lady), mentions Louise Belmont, Mike Paterno, Torch Flinn, and Billy Voigt. Chick's owner, Joe Wattleworth, also mentions Billy Voigt & Jim Weitzel. I remember Pat mentioning Jay Sweezey always being supportive.

Indeed, since the 70s, field trial tests have become ever more challenging. However, field trials weren't "easy" even back then; and the training techniques were in the early stages of transitioning more widely to the e-collar. Dottie Mikeska mentions that she did not start handling until after Quar turned 2. Five months later he was QAA, with four placements in 7 trials. Still remarkable, even if the tests were easier then. And Labs dominated in field trials then, just as they do now. When Magic Marker finished her AFC, Joe Wattleworth's comment was, "When you've got 'a good' Golden, black is only the cloud of dust left behind."

All four stories told by the owners in the article have a recurring theme of the intelligence, natural ability, and cooperativeness of these four dogs. With those traits as a foundation, one can't help but wonder if, with today's training techniques, they could still be Goldens any one of us would be very happy to own. I can think of at least four people who would.


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Some statistics in line with this topic ... from the GRCA News article on "The Tigathoe Four".
> 
> For those who may not know, the breeding of Tigathoe's Chickasaw & FC-AFC-CFC Bonnie Brooks Elmer was done 2X. Nothing much, it appears, came from the first breeding in 1969. The 2nd litter was whelped in Nov. 1971. That litter produced 4 FC-AFCs, one of those being Dual CH Quar. (Tigathoe's Funky Farquar, Tigathoe's Magic Marker, Tigathoe's Kiowa II, and Tigathoe's Tonga).


Having not read the article, I do not know who is misinformed. Maybe the AKC’s stud book is incorrect. 

However form research I did some years back I recall that Click was bred to Elmer 4 times, twice in 1969 and twice in 1971. The litter whelped on 2/10/71 included Tonga and Click (Magic Marker). The litter whelped 11/11/71 included Ki and Quar.

With four FC AFC progney out of four litters the Elmer x Click mating was still one of the best all time for field trial Golden Retrievers so really no need to exaggerate.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Jim Pickering said:


> Having not read the article, I do not know who is misinformed. Maybe the AKC’s stud book is incorrect.
> 
> However form research I did some years back I recall that Click was bred to Elmer 4 times, twice in 1969 and twice in 1971. The litter whelped on 2/10/71 included Tonga and Click (Magic Marker). The litter whelped 11/11/71 included Ki and Quar.
> 
> With four FC AFC progney out of four litters the Elmer x Click mating was still one of the best all time for field trial Golden Retrievers so really no need to exaggerate.


Jim, you are absolutely correct. My "senior" eyes missed that Tonga and Chick had earlier birthdays in the same year as Quar and Ki. As I typed it, I was thinking that I had remembered two litters being involved in those 4 dogs. I should have listened to my "little voice" and re-checked the dates.

K9data has only one offspring listed for 12/7/69 (the female named Tigathoe's Kiowa). Could you possibly add the other information to k9data?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Some statistics in line with this topic ... from the GRCA News article on "The Tigathoe Four".
> 
> For those who may not know, the breeding of Tigathoe's Chickasaw & FC-AFC-CFC Bonnie Brooks Elmer was done 2X. Nothing much, it appears, came from the first breeding in 1969. The 2nd litter was whelped in Nov. 1971. That litter produced 4 FC-AFCs, one of those being Dual CH Quar. (Tigathoe's Funky Farquar, Tigathoe's Magic Marker, Tigathoe's Kiowa II, and Tigathoe's Tonga). Also, from the same litter were 2 *** dogs (Jicarilla & Misty Morning) and one ** (Tonka). There has not been any other litter in Goldens that produced this many FC-AFCs. Both Quar and sister, Chick, finished their FC-AFC titles by the time they were 4 years old; Quar just before he turned 4.
> 
> ...


This current GRCA field issue is the best I have seen by far, and to me, the combined story of "The Tigathoe Four" is the best of the lot. What a great breeding. Like you Gerry, I also picked up on the "team player" aspect of each dog, especially since all four owners were relative field trial newbies. Each owner points out that special relationship they had with their dog, and how much their dog wanted to please them. That close relationship is the number one advantage an amateur owner-trainer has over Pro truck run dogs.

John


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I also remember another good breeding that produced well.
Bred also 4 x I believe.
11/6/1980, 3/28/1983, 5/15/1984, 12/14/1985.
This produced :
Numerous XX Goldens
10 XXX,
3 FC/AFC including Zap ,Ziggy, and Mo(2X National Open Finalist)
3 FTCH/AFTCH including Kipp, Buddy ( Can OTCH as well) and Can. National Amat. Winner Razz.
Sue


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> That close relationship is the number one advantage an amateur owner-trainer has over Pro truck run dogs.


Some years ago Jim Drager wrote an article for the News that focused on that very thing.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Sue Kiefer said:


> I also remember another good breeding that produced well.
> Bred also 4 x I believe.
> 11/6/1980, 3/28/1983, 5/15/1984, 12/14/1985.
> This produced :
> ...


Does GRCC also have a News? It would be interesting to have a similar article that parallels the Tigathoe 4 from our northern neighbors!


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

From my fading memory...

To show two paths....FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Red had more all age points than did FC-AFC Bonnie Brooks Elmer. However, Elmer was with Torch who bred and Red was with Harold Bruninga who only kept males and basically only allowed his dog to stand at stud when he was searching for another dog.

A name I've not seen mentioned in all of this is Richard Kerns. Search K9Data for "Bonnie Brooks" (not "Bonniebrooks") and look at what he produced...including Elmer and Red. I understand that one day Mr. Kerns simply decided he'd done enough with dogs and took up sailing or somesuch.

Eric


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Stilrovin? Ann Fowler (at the time) was at the Sheridan, WY trial in Sept of 1964 with 2 very nice bitches. Stilrovin Tuppee Tea & Stilrovin Savannah Gay if my memory is correct .


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## sterregold (May 27, 2005)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Does GRCC also have a News? It would be interesting to have a similar article that parallels the Tigathoe 4 from our northern neighbors!


We have the Golden Leaves--a much smaller and less glamourous publication--and now in digital format only. But you have given me a good idea for a field column article. Going to have to look into talking to Messrs. Glenn and Bischke about those dogs!


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I can't speak to what Harold B. did back when he had "Red"(Bonnie Brooks Red). But I was around when he was trialing Dandy Boy Red and AFC Little Fever.
I bred my Zap bitch to Dandy and he didn't keep a puppy . 
I think that the most successful breeding to one of Harold's males was when Carma Futhy bred "Joy" to Bonnie Brooks Red.
http://www.k9data.com/offspring.asp?ID=15812
Harold was one in a million. He loved his Goldens. He did all the training himself.
Always named his Goldens something "Red". Except Little Fever. I asked him about that one time. He just said that he ran out of names
Sue


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I am loving all this "Goldens of the past" talk. Keep it up. A lot of you have so much information that needs to be shared.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=620






What a beautiful head of a Golden. Now I know where my Ginger got her looks.
Sue


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Sue-

Harold wouldn't necessarily keep a puppy out of each breeding. When he was looking to add a male, he'd entertain offers and see what was produced and then pass or pick.

I bred to Sangamo Red once and got nothing. He offered to repeat the breeding but said that he wasn't interested in a puppy anymore. The breeding was to a bitch I had that was out of a MH/MHR/HRCh bitch and sired by Smoke'N Red Apache.

Eric


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Yes Eric that would make more sense cus he knows his own pooches.
right?
I also didn't nessessarily get what I wanted either when I bred to Dandy but it takes 2 to tanglo.
Ginger always seemed to find the weaknesses in all the males I bred her to.
I called her my weakest link. and had her spayed than continued to trial her.
Sue


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I asked Pat about the Chick/Elmer breedings. This is what she recalls of Chick's litters:



> #1 litter was sired by poika born12/7/67 Small litter I am numbering these as Chicks litters---
> 
> #2Litter sired by Elmer Three pups one was female Tigathoes Kiowa none trained as far as I know
> 
> ...


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## Ann Strathern (Oct 25, 2004)

Seriously, after the 1998 Year book was published the show folks took the field trial stats job away form Edwina and changed the format to worthless clutter. Given that Eli was post 1998 the Year Books are of no value. Other than contacting Eli's owner, the place I would suggest you look is to go to the AKC website, register if not already registered, go to the on line store, dog lookup then point progression.
__________________
Jim Pickering 

I just wanted to clear up something about the GRCA yearbook and the staff, at least up to the 2007 yearbooks, the last one produced on a DVD.

All of the Goldens who have placed or JAM'd in a licensed field trial are all listed in the Field Dog section under "Field Trial Placements". So all of the stats can be taken from there. The dogs are listed alphabetically so it is easier than in the older printed yearbooks that went chronologically.

It is a shame that not enough people bought the DVDs so the yearbook committee decided not to keep producing them.

Ann


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

One of the many interesting things about the marvelous Nitro is he has a Curly Coated Retriever "Rajah" as an ancestor. Rajah's sire TIVERTON BEST LAD is one of the most famous curly coated retrievers in history.





Sue Kiefer said:


> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=754
> 
> Interesting that many of the dogs in the older pedigrees died young.
> 
> ...


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