# Question for akc rules junkies



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

AKC senior hunt test water series. The setup was one mark on the right thrown right to left on the opposite bank. The go bird was left of the line on the near bank to be tossed into the water. The blind was in between the marks almost directly across from the line. 

Because the blind was between the marks, it was to be run first. The hunt test committee had to approve all setups and they disapproved this one because of the location of the blind (between marks).

I thought this was ok because the blind was to be run first.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm not a rule junky. 

I like that the committee wanted the judges to change the test as I do not believe a blind should ever be between the two marks in senior. But... I don't believe the committee had the right to approve the setups except for an issue of safety. The judges set the test and interpret the rules as they apply to their test.

Am I wrong?


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## Tom Lehr (Sep 11, 2008)

I do not believe it violates the letter of the rules but if you think about why the rule is on the books you would try extremely hard to find a blind outside the marks. Depending on the set up, the dogs could be dealing with looking at holding blinds or dealing with scent from the fall areas. I do not believe a Senior dog should have to deal with either.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Perfectly ok to do it that way....As Howard stated the committee can over rule a set up because of safety but not in this case...Steve S


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

I agree with Tom and started this before I read his post. But, I'll carry on anyway.
I don't have to open the book to know that in senior tests blinds shall - note: shall - not be run between marks. The book does NOT say "Unless the blind is run first." The reason is to remove that suction for these young - at least in their training - dogs. Even though pup may not have seen the marks go down there is still scent and very visible throwing stations - unless they have unlike any senior test I've seen been very careful to fully brush and hide the stations - that will affect the pups. IMO the HT committee was correct in pointing out that the setup was a violation of the rules. (I've also had judges claim that an under the arc blind was OK as it was not "between the marks." Some folks seem to spend more effort in figuring out how to work around the rules than just working with them.)


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Jerry Mann addresses this point specifically in the Seminar. Just sayin.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Howard N said:


> I'm not a rule junky.
> 
> I like that the committee wanted the judges to change the test as I do not believe a blind should ever be between the two marks in senior. But... I don't believe the committee had the right to approve the setups except for an issue of safety. The judges set the test and interpret the rules as they apply to their test.
> 
> Am I wrong?


Here is what the regs and rules say:
"The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test 
Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all 
of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests, 
except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the 
Judges."
But "that does not mean that the Event Committee cannot intervene when a test is contrary to the Rules and Regulations. When the judges set up a test contrary to the Rules and Regulations, the Event Committee has the power - and the obligation - to 'step' in and advise the judges of the illegal conditions and require that the flaw be corrected."
That is from the article on committee responsibilities that the AKC has published at the back of EE catalogs.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

GulfCoast said:


> Jerry Mann addresses this point specifically in the Seminar. Just sayin.


And what specificallisticall did Mr Mann says about this in the Seminar for those of us that haven't attended one.

I , ll prolly just run em and not worry about such things, and Hopefully have fun doin it. 

But I would like to know what Mr Mann Said,even IF it does contradict the rules.

Curious regards 

Gooser

I was always under the impression blind could not be between the marks, but, I have been confused on a continual basis fed a long time now.. I take huge amounts of more dictation for the problem.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Mr. Mann said if you run the blind first, then its not between the marks. I would say "its not between the marks YET" but its between the bird crates, the holding blinds, suction, gunners moving around, etc. and probably not a real swell idea. But they don't let me give the seminars for obvious reasons. My dogs have run more than one "not between the marks YET" blinds in Senior, some turned out better than others, depending on the wind off the flyer station.....


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Good Dogs said:


> The book does NOT say "Unless the blind is run first."


Mr. Mann is not some oracle pronouncing what the rules are and this would not be the first time I disagreed with his reported pronouncements. The rules are the rules--in fact, I think I would take Mr. Swift's pronouncements more often 

I think the only way you could get away with doing this under the rules is if you ran the blind, did callbacks and then ran the marks. That way it would at least be a different series and the 'not between the marks yet' argument might hold some water. Still that would be pretty shaky justification for what everyone else with common sense seems to agree is a bad idea. Some times it may be very difficult to avoid given what the judges have to work with but it is a lot for a senior dog, not to mention what it might do to many of the poor handlers.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

This is why Junior and Senior judges should get first choice of property and ponds over master. Master you can set up almost anything and work around stuff. In Senior real hard to set up a water blind in a cow pond along with water marks. . As for Jerry Mann, his interpetation of the rules are his alone.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Who is Mr. Swift?
It's hard to believe it could have been worse with only 7 of
27 passing (excluding the MH dog). See my Rowdy First Ribbon post.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Had a situation where the water blind was not between the marks but required an angle entry with suction to commit cheating. I prefer not to tempt JR or SR dogs with a cheating situation if possible. Discussion about the setup later on opened up several scenarios that could be done. #1 run the blind as a land blind in the water series and do the water blind as part of the land series. #2 Run 3 series, a double on land, a double on water and a double blind, 1 land and 1 water. Now take yer choice cowboy, a blind 1st or other scenarios of which many could fall within the rules. Judges that work with the committee in their setups seem to have better setups. More eyes in the thought process are better. After all it is a test of dogs not a measure of a judges independence from all things foreign.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Here is what the regs and rules say:
> "The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test
> Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all
> of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests,
> ...


I couldn't find the above in the rule book. It might be there I just didn't find it. I did find the following which I knew was there:



> Section 4. Test Set-Up. *The Judges*, with paramount
> regard to Section 1 of this Chapter, *shall determine the *
> *tests to be given and shall design those tests* in order
> to approximate as nearly as possible the conditions met
> ...


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

This exact scenario happened to me at my first Senior test. The gun stations were set up: one on the left bank, the other on the right bank. While you and dog are in holding blind before coming to the line, a diversion shot was fired from the right-hand gun station. The blind was right up the middle with hazzards to the right where the shot came from.

If your dog has run any tests ever, its going to be frantically looking for gun stations as you walk to the line. She will find them and they will provide suction. However, this suction is perhaps less suction than if you're running a land double with a flyer then have to run the land blind placed 20 yards from the flyer station and in the same direction of the flyer AOF. Which is worse?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> Mr. Mann is not some oracle pronouncing what the rules are and this would not be the first time I disagreed with his reported pronouncements. The rules are the rules--in fact, I think I would take Mr. Swift's pronouncements more often
> 
> I think the only way you could get away with doing this under the rules is if you ran the blind, did callbacks and then ran the marks. That way it would at least be a different series and the 'not between the marks yet' argument might hold some water. Still that would be pretty shaky justification for what everyone else with common sense seems to agree is a bad idea. Some times it may be very difficult to avoid given what the judges have to work with but it is a lot for a senior dog, not to mention what it might do to many of the poor handlers.


In all my years of running I have only had to do this type set up a few times....I have set it up on one occasion and the marks were by invitation after the blind was run ....It up set handlers far more than it does dogs....If a Sr dog can't handle it isn't a Sr level dog...It is amazing what a dog can do when it has a calm confident handler at the controls.....Steve S


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Like GoodDogs said, I think it's good to work with the committee as far as safety and the rules go. After that, leave me alone. I have seen several times where an entire MH test has been run and the minimum requirements for a MH were not met. That's inexcuseable IMO. Judges didn't know the rules and committee didn't either.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

I have run one test where the blind was between the marks, just off the left hand gun station. Got my dog to the blind with two whistles but she didn't come up with a bird so sucked to the gun station. I put her back on blind and she sucked over again after the third time of handling her to the blind the judge finally yelled out to the bird boy did he plant the blind. His answer was no he didn't have any birds left. I called her in and they threw a diversion on the way in which she thought she should pick up. Needless to say I was not a happy camper because they felt she should be failed for going for the diversion.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Just for the record, Jerry Mann is one of the ultimate "deciders" of just what the rules say. If push comes to shove at a test, what the AKC rep says is "the law".

As for this particular situation, two issues. The blind run first between where two marks will eventually appear is correct within the rules. Most of us don't like to do this if for no other reason than all the time we spend explaining why it would be legal.

The second issue is the matter of the hunt test committee having to approve the test, it sounds like a joint HRC/AKC club in which the HRC members took on an authority which they do not have under any condition ... at an AKC test. Any committee that tried to do that to me would need to cite an authority in the rules ... which they couldn't do. If they insisted, I'd pick up the phone and consult with the AKC.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Eric Johnson said:


> Just for the record, Jerry Mann is one of the ultimate "deciders" of just what the rules say. If push comes to shove at a test, what the AKC rep says is "the law".
> 
> As for this particular situation, two issues. The blind run first between where two marks will eventually appear is correct within the rules. Most of us don't like to do this if for no other reason than all the time we spend explaining why it would be legal.
> 
> The second issue is the matter of the hunt test committee having to approve the test, it sounds like a joint HRC/AKC club in which the HRC members took on an authority which they do not have under any condition ... at an AKC test. Any committee that tried to do that to me would need to cite an authority in the rules ... which they couldn't do. If they insisted, I'd pick up the phone and consult with the AKC.


how the Heck did ya come up with a way to drag HRC into this?

really ya have to tell Gooser how!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

It's legal by rule

/Paul


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

Why?

Why was that blind so important in a Senior test? Why push the rules so far that the Hunt Test committee had to shut down your test to discuss it? Why upset the handlers?

Challenge the dogs, not the rule book.

J.O.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Perhaps the rule means to say that as a judge you cannot require the dog to pick up one of the marks, then the blind, then the other mark... if the blind is situated between the marks(?) or even if it is not(?) .Are marks interupted by a blind legal in a Senior HT?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

My recollection of the initial setup was that u couldn't see the right gun station from the line because of willows and brush. The left was on the near bank. Dog would have to turn 90 degrees
to see it. However due to wet conditions there was a long
walk in and I think the dogs could see the right gun station from the back side on the way in.

There was a strong cross wind right to left.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

There is the letter of the rules and then there is understanding the purpose and intent of the rules. Even if you run the blind first, the dog and handler are still going to face a level of complexity that Senior dogs are not usually expected to face. This type of experience usually gives Test Committees a good reason to review their proceedures for selecting judges for an event.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Perhaps the rule means to say that as a judge you cannot require the dog to pick up one of the marks, then the blind, then the other mark... if the blind is situated between the marks(?) or even if it is not(?) .Are marks interupted by a blind legal in a Senior HT?


Yes...Steve S


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> Yes...Steve S


Steve,
when you answer Mr Fallon so directly like this, is your answer based on the rule book,, or based on the possible fact you have run a test or two like this before?

Trying to understand what is a Senior test and what isnt.


Gooser

P,S,
Same question for /Paul


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

It's like anything else Gooser... it is whatever a pair of judges wants it to be within the rules. Most that I have seen are straightforward marking tests with square water entries and blinds with some factors but not really involving the marks too much. 

Having said that you could get a series with two converging marks, separated by 20 degrees, short bird upwind of a long memory bird and the blind 10 deg downwind and past the whole set up, on a hillside pitching the dogs back into the marks. 

A lot of accomplished MH dogs would probably do ****ty work on this one and it's perfectly legal in SH.

It's a double, the blind is outside the marks and you weren't told what order to pick up the marks in.

I think that's why there are required apprenticeships and dog handling experience. A lot of what you see is based more on tradition and unwritten standards for performance. Knowledge of those is only gained through experience and time in the game. It's also why there is a required number of judging points for the two judge team (I think).


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Here is what I found in the rule book.


Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be 
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall 
include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as 
a double blind on land and water), one double land mark, 
and one double water mark. There shall be at least one 
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations 
should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is 
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to 
retrieve. *Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior *
*Hunting Tests.*



So, If Judges, and folks that teach the seminar, read this and Interpret the intent to allow a blind to be run between gun stations first, because no mark has been thrown yet,, OR to run a blind first,, then get to run marks by invitation,, when "Marking is of PRIMARY importance" (seems to me like the BLIND was PRIMARY) Do you all believe they are following "INTENT" or personal opinion?



Yes, I know I should attend a seminar,, but I would just be there wanting an answere to the same question above. What does the seminar teacher say? "Cause I say so?


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> Howard said he couldnt find anything in the rules about Blinds being run between marks.
> 
> Here is what I found in the rule book.
> 
> ...


I honestly think often that judges try to do something different than the same ole boring setups. I've not been to a test with the blind up the middle, but have seen a few other "meaty" tests. I really felt like if the test was a straight up 35/60yrd double with a silly 50yrd blind way off to the side, was a serious in-justice to the dogs. It really rings true when you see weak dogs barely pass the simple test. I suppose that's what makes Senior hard to setup/judge for. I would just have to see the other factors to know if the blind up the middle was too much or would more leeway have to be given. Spread between stations, terrain, and wind would have lots of bearing.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Since we are going to the rule book a dog must carrry an overall average of 7 with an minimum average on blinds of 5.

Ch2 Section 1 "Qualifying score in senior and master Retriever Hunting
Tests, not only must a dog receive an overall average of
not less than seven (7.0) for the entire test, but it must also
receive separate, independent average scores of not less
than five (5.0) in each ability category related to
marking, as well as separate, independent average scores of not less
than five (5.0) in each ability category related to blinds."

The next paragraph is almost never used in my experience. Long waits for call backs!

"If, at any time during testing, a dog is graded zero (0)
by two Judges for the same ability, the dog cannot receive
a Qualifying score and the handler must be informed that
the dog cannot receive a Qualifying score."

But that is another discussion.


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## RMC$$$ (Oct 1, 2012)

What would qualify as a zero on a blind? If he does not challenge the blind on his initial line but takes the handles and picks up the bird how would that be scored?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

as this thread drifts away I worry we (some) are very close to running the bus over a couple of judges. We all know or can find out who was in the chairs with the click of a mouse 'cause of Wayne's other thread about the pups first pass.
middle level hunt test blinds are a bitch to set up. Yes you see the up the middle. And you see the off to the side waters edge sharp angle entry that some dogs can dry land run allmost all the way to. Or the ol' live bird team person take a few steps and chuck so poor Fido is running at a bird crate, just about. Master judges have it made, blinds are mixed into the marking set ups. Poor senior judges must keep them away. But what of the grounds? What if the chunk of marsh and field and puddle of mud the judges are given is a bit, um, limited? Many times a test will have a lot of master dogs and a lot of junior dogs and a handfull of senior, so who gets the lame field? Middle level! Every Time! You got to run the dogs afore the sun sets!


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I will say that poor grounds can create "problematic" test setups more so at "the middle level" than any other.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Mr Gooser -

I was referring to the fact that tests need to be approved in HRC whereas they are not in AKC. Not only do they not need to be approved, there is no provision for this to even be considered. Instead, the rule book says in Chapter 3, Section 4:

Section 4. Test Set-Up. The Judges, with paramount regard to Section 1 of this Chapter, shall determine the tests to be given and shall design those tests in order to approximate as nearly as possible the conditions met in true hunting situations. In keeping with this aim, the Judges shall design and enhance hunting situations by utilizing, as naturally as possible, the equipment that would be found in a true upland game or waterfowl hunting 
situation. Strategic placement of numerous decoys, use of camouflaged blinds to conceal guns and throwers, duck boats, duck and goose calls, etc., are necessary adjuncts to Hunting Tests for Retrievers.

You'll note that the judges have the responsibility for setting up the test and the committee has no role in approval. Further, in Chapter 1, Section 14 we find the words:

The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests, except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the Judges, and must provide themselves with copies of the latest editions of these books.

The committee is responsible for putting on the event but the test itself is the sole responsibility of the judges.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

A dog and handler set up to run the blind. The dog is sent and goes 15 feet before returning to the handler. That's a "0" in the books.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> I honestly think often that judges try to do something different than the same ole boring setups. I've not been to a test with the blind up the middle, but have seen a few other "meaty" tests. I really felt like if the test was a straight up 35/60yrd double with a silly 50yrd blind way off to the side, was a serious in-justice to the dogs. It really rings true when you see weak dogs barely pass the simple test. I suppose that's what makes Senior hard to setup/judge for. *I would just have to see the other factors to know if the blind up the middle was too much or would more leeway have to be given. Spread between stations, terrain, and wind would have lots of bearing.*


Thats fine with me if you admit you are ignoring the written standard... Read the rule!

If you find Senior boring, not a challenge, silly blind distance, dont Change the standard,, GO RUN SOMETHING MORE CHALLENGING FOR YOU AND YOUR DOG!!!

How many times during discussions here, many very experienced Judges/ Handlers make the comment "when in doubt. refer to the RULE BOOK?

Now in your mind the rule doesnt matter,, cause you want the tests more challenging for YOU. You want to run blinds that are not so silly.

So, dont you think You should go run tests that may be challenging for you,, like Master or maybe even a Qual?

Why Mess with the Senior level dog??

Gooser

Found it!
Judges responsibility

Section 7. Judges’ Responsibility. It is strongly
recommended that clubs select as Judges individuals with broad and extensive background experience in handling
and working with Retrievers in the field.
Judges must officiate over all series in their respective
assignments.
A Judge shall not handle a dog in another test until the test level (or division of a test level) that he or she is
judging is fully completed. The intent of this Regulation is
that a test may not be stopped for a judge to run a dog in
another test.
Judges need not set up identical tests when test
levels are divided.
A Judge of a Hunting Test shall be familiar with all
Rules, Regulations and Procedures pertaining to the type
of Test being conducted. Judges shall be thoroughly familiar
with the applicable Standards, and shall be responsible
for judging in compliance with the Rules, Regulations, and
Standards.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Or a dog is sent and at 30 yards gives you the middle toe and takes off on turkey tracks.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

So the rules say the blinds, must not be ran inbtw the marks, but I have never read where it says the marks cannot be ran in conjunction after the blind. If you run a blind straight up the middle, before the marks are thrown, there are NO marks to interfere; it's just a blind. If You then run the marks, yes blind suction can interfere, and the dog will actually have to show they marked the falls, and not cave/return to an old blind. You aren't allowed to return to the old fall on a double, is the same skill set that you don't return to an old blind. Seems like a very fair way to run a SH series, and a great way for a dog to demonstrate marking ability. A SH title does have meaning, running the same watered-down non-inventive SH tests, does not test all the different aspects-attributes that make up a complete Senior hunter. The lack of test variety is unfair to both the dogs and the handlers. Such tests do not help with easy transition into Master level tests, where the wheels usually fall off, simply because the dog-handler, can do a basic senior test with ease, but has never seen a [email protected] Senior test. If you can't do a hard senior test, you definitely can't do even a moderate Master test, where anything and everything can happen.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

How do you get this,,,,, (your interpretation)

The committee is responsible for putting on the event but the test itself is the sole responsibility of the judges.


From this?:

*The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests,* except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the Judges, and must provide themselves with copies of the latest editions of these books.

There are, I suppose, rules that are the sole responsibility of the judges..

I have a hard time though coming up with some..
I guess calling a No Bird.
I guess deciding confusion on the dogs part ( I wish handlers would be given some leeway)
Weather
allowing touching of the dog to remove a 10" long thorn in the dogs foot (no shorter though)
When to scrap the test.

ect ect..

In My opinion,, Just cause he is Judge doesnt allow him to change the written standard, Does it??


So, In essence,, a Hunt test committee. or a a test secretary can suggest to the judges they are not following rules,, correct?


I am beginning to realize that not only do I not know squat about Dogs,,, I also am beginning to think I cant read!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Howard said he couldnt find anything in the rules about Blinds being run between marks.


No I didn't Gooser.

I said I couldn't find in the rules what Good Dog quoted. He said it came from the back of an Entry Express catalog and AKC put it there. I disagree with him, AKC didn't publish it there, someone at EE did, and I can't find that particular quote in the rules.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> So the rules say the blinds, must not be ran inbtw the marks, *but I have never read where it says the marks cannot be ran in conjunction after the blind.* If you run a blind straight up the middle, before the marks are thrown, there are NO marks to interfere; it's just a blind. If You then run the marks, yes blind suction can interfere, and the dog will actually have to show they marked the falls, and not cave/return to a old blind. You aren't allowed to return to the old fall on a double, is the same skill set that you don't return to an old blind. Seems like a very fair way to run a SH series, and a great way for a dog to demonstrate marking ability. An SH title does have meaning, watered-down non-inventive SH tests that do not test the different aspect of a senior hunter, are both unfair to the dog and handlers. They do not help with easy transition into Master level tests, where the wheels usually fall off, simply because the dog-handler has never seen a [email protected] Senior test.



You CAN do this,, as long as the silly 60 yrd blind is outside the 100 Yrd marks.

Wait! Maybe make that silly 60 yrd blind a mere 30 yrs. After the 100 yrd marks.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Since the discussion took off on a tangent, I’ll change it again.
When will the sanctioning bodies and the participants officially decide and publish that these are not “hunting” tests but “retrieving” tests?
I have ran a lot of both of the major venues and thee is precious little resembling a real hunt, and I hunt a lot.
White buckets at the line even though the handler is camo head to toe, a fake stick that is supposed to resemble a firearm, birds “shot” at unthinkable shooting distances, etc etc etc.
Let’s just start calling them what they are, retriever training tests, and maybe some of the discussions of where or where not the blinds and marks need to be will go away.
JMHO
MP


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't have any problems with the judging. My question was a theoretical one as to the akc rules.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't have any problems with the judging. My question was a theoretical one as to the akc rules because my understanding was different than the ht comm. rep and was the same as the judges.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Howard N said:


> No I didn't Gooser.
> 
> I said I couldn't find in the rules what Good Dog quoted. He said it came from the back of an Entry Express catalog and AKC put it there. I disagree with him, AKC didn't publish it there, someone at EE did, and I can't find that particular quote in the rules.


Sorry Howard! I edited my post ! Please accept apology

Gooser.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> Thats fine with me if you admit you are ignoring the written standard... Read the rule!
> 
> If you find Senior boring, not a challenge, silly blind distance, dont Change the standard,, GO RUN SOMETHING MORE CHALLENGING FOR YOU AND YOUR DOG!!!
> 
> ...


Aww Gooser I wasn't saying blow them away or its never a challenge. I just don't personally care for a show-dog senior test...and yes I know that will prob get me heckled, but then again the hunt test is for PROFORMACE right? And I did NOT say I wanted to ignore any rules, if I judged, I really doubt I would setup a middle blind, there are a lot of other ways to get the answers. I was stating I would have to see the whole scene. I am curious as why the rules say between MARKS instead of stations though...


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> So the rules say the blinds, must not be ran inbtw the marks, but I have never read where it says the marks cannot be ran in conjunction after the blind. If you run a blind straight up the middle, before the marks are thrown, there are NO marks to interfere; it's just a blind. If You then run the marks, yes blind suction can interfere, and the dog will actually have to show they marked the falls, and not cave/return to an old blind. You aren't allowed to return to the old fall on a double, is the same skill set that you don't return to an old blind. Seems like a very fair way to run a SH series, and a great way for a dog to demonstrate marking ability. *A SH title does have meaning, running the same watered-down non-inventive SH tests, does not test all the different aspects-attributes that make up a complete Senior hunter. The lack of test variety is unfair to both the dogs and the handlers. Such tests do not help with easy transition into Master level tests, where the wheels usually fall off, simply because the dog-handler, can do a basic senior test with ease, but has never seen a [email protected] Senior test.* If you can't do a hard senior test, you definitely can't do even a moderate Master test, where anything and everything can happen.


This was my thought process. If you notice, my pup has a SH title and just got it. I am proud of it and her. We worked hard to get to that level. You and I both know there is a difference in a gimme test and a nice, fair well thought out test, that does the SH title justice.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

To me a SH dog is ready to hunt, not before. I'd rather see some meat in a test than have it be a gimme. Not that there are ever any of those as long as dogs will be dogs 

The test as was specd is absolutely legal per the rules. There are no marks for the blind to be "outside of" since they haven't been thrown yet. It's actually EASIER than some of the things you might see where the marks are thrown first and the blind is technically "outside" them. 

As I mentioned in the previous example, the simple act of putting a blind "outside" a set of marks doesn't necessarily make the test any easier.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> To me a SH dog is ready to hunt, not before. I'd rather see some meat in a test than have it be a gimme. Not that there are ever any of those as long as dogs will be dogs
> 
> The test as was specd is absolutely legal per the rules. There are no marks for the blind to be "outside of" since they haven't been thrown yet. It's actually EASIER than some of the things you might see where the marks are thrown first and the blind is technically "outside" them. As I mentioned in the previous example, the simple act of putting a blind "outside" a set of marks doesn't necessarily make the test any easier.


This is true. Not much harder than running your first senior blind just behind and down wind of the duck crates in the flyer station! I have learned with each event, if my dog aced it, it was a "gimmee". If my dog wandered off to another county or wouldn't come out of the water, it was a "ball buster"!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> So the rules say the blinds, must not be ran inbtw the marks, but I have never read where it says the marks cannot be ran in conjunction after the blind. *If you run a blind straight up the middle, before the marks are thrown, there are NO marks to interfere*; it's just a blind. If You then run the marks, yes blind suction can interfere, and the dog will actually have to show they marked the falls, and not cave/return to an old blind. You aren't allowed to return to the old fall on a double, is the same skill set that you don't return to an old blind. Seems like a very fair way to run a SH series, and a great way for a dog to demonstrate marking ability. A SH title does have meaning, running the same watered-down non-inventive SH tests, does not test all the different aspects-attributes that make up a complete Senior hunter. The lack of test variety is unfair to both the dogs and the handlers. Such tests do not help with easy transition into Master level tests, where the wheels usually fall off, simply because the dog-handler, can do a basic senior test with ease, but has never seen a [email protected] Senior test. If you can't do a hard senior test, you definitely can't do even a moderate Master test, where anything and everything can happen.


I am (hopefully) going to run my first SH a week from Sunday, so keep that in mind with this comment.

Technically the bolded statement is correct - at least for the first dog. I wonder if this is not a question of letter vs. intent. There are no marks down when the dog is sent for the blind, but there sure is a lot of scent out there *on both sides* whereas it is usually only on one side. So while the rules as written don't seem to disallow the up-the-middle blind, I wonder if this is what was intended.

Of course, the simple answer is to train for up-the-middle blinds. Remind me I said that.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Gooser

I can't tell if you are purposefully playing devil's advocate or the AKC venue is so difficult to comprehend vis a vis the HRC one or if I'm just not explaining it correctly. Maybe there's even a fourth choice. Dunno.

In an AKC Hunt Test, the Committee has nothing to do with the elements of a test nor with the approval of any element. They just don't. These are matters of sole concern of the judges. Similarly, there are issues which the judges have no hand in. For instance, in a case of cruelty to a dog, unless a judge witnessed the behavior, s/he'll have nothing to do with the matter. Here's another quote from the book:

The Hunting Test Committee of a club holding a 
licensed or member club Hunting Test shall have the 
authority to decide upon any matter arising during the run-
ning of the Hunting Test, except a matter coming within 
the jurisdiction of the Judges.

The ultimate issue ... I can even scrap a test and start over ... even if it means that we'll be there Monday. I can do anything I need to do to test the dogs against the standard from the holding blinds until the test is complete. 

All that said, on set up day, the judges will commonly have a committee member with them and if so, I'll commonly ask questions like "How's this pond been used in the past?" or "What if we ran the water series first?" or ... "Will we have one, two,or no fliers?" or ... 

However, if the Committee member or whole committee said, "You can't run that test like that with ... " I'd respond, "Certainly I can."

At that point if they pursued it further, they'd need to get a new judge or they would talk to an AKC rep on the phone. If the AKC rep says, "You can't do that ..." I'd listen to him but not the committee.

Now, in the off chance that I've still not explained it adequately, we'll just have to leave it at that.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

IMHO, a really bad idea.

If that's the only body of water available, run the WB as a seperate series and use the area one of the marks will be thrown from as the point of origin, which should minimize scent interference when the marks are run later on.-Paul


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> Of course, the simple answer is to train for up-the-middle blinds. Remind me I said that.


I'm sure there are many scent pockets in any field, that may tempt any dog, under any circumstance, however a blind is about control. Now perhaps it represents too much control to expect a Senior level dog to pull off a mark that it has seen drop and go for a blind, or run inbtw bird two stations where the dog has already seen marks launched out of. Perhaps that is just too much temptation, to expect appropriate control; at the senior level. Most senior level blinds I see run by or on the outside of at least one scent pocket of a bird that was launched and already picked up. However why cannot one expect a dog to run in control to a blind btw scent pockets, whether they are just out in the field from previous training groups or are scents pockets of marks that the dog doesn't know are going to exist? I don't know if there a difference, but I also haven't seen the setup happen yet. The only times I've seen this up the middle blind scenario, the blind was a separate series. All the dogs ran the blind, then the marks were setup and all the dog ran the marks


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Steve,
> when you answer Mr Fallon so directly like this, is your answer based on the rule book,, or based on the possible fact you have run a test or two like this before?
> 
> Trying to understand what is a Senior test and what isnt.
> ...


Strictly book... If there is not a restriction in the book saying "NO" then it is ok to do ....As the OP's question about a blind between the marks in the Sr...Ok if run before the marks are thrown ... There is no between at that point...As far as who has the authority to give the final interpretation on what the rule book is trying to get across to everyone is the AKC reps.. Like them or not ...It is their book...not mine or anyone else...As one person put it in another post " If the gallery isn't whining and complaining you don't have enough test" ...Not to highjack the thread ( if it hasn't all ready happened) can a diversion bird be thrown when the dog is returning with the first bird of the double or does it have to be after the final bird..? I can't find it in the book...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I'm sure there are many scent pockets in any field, that may tempt any dog, under any circumstance, however a blind is about control. *Now perhaps it represents too much control to expect a Senior level dog to pull off a mark that it has seen drop and go for a blind,* or run inbtw bird two stations where the dog has already seen marks launched out of. Perhaps that is just too much temptation, to expect appropriate control; at the senior level. Most senior level blinds I see run by or on the outside of at least one scent pocket of a bird that was launched and already picked up. However why cannot one expect a dog to run in control to a blind btw scent pockets, whether they are just out in the field from previous training groups or are scents pockets of marks that the dog doesn't know are going to exist? I don't know if there a difference, but I also haven't seen the setup happen yet. The only times I've seen this up the middle blind scenario, the blind was a separate series. All the dogs ran the blind, then the marks were setup and all the dog ran the marks


Is a poison bird blind legal ( ok ) to run in a Sr ? I can't find that either ....Please help with all the missing info on what I can't do as a judge....Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

In my opinion we don't expect enough out of our dogs...No matter what level ...Even in field trial dogs....We want to do the least amount of training and get the ribbon on the weekend....As mentioned earlier it appears the show ring mentality has crept into the field games...I only want to see "X" test on the weekend...Not the "my dog can do anything you set up attitude ....bring it on ...we are ready" ...not cocky just confident....Step on the marks and line the blinds should be the goal of all trainers....Steve S


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> Is a poison bird blind legal ( ok ) to run in a Sr ? I can't find that either ....Please help with all the missing info on what I can't do as a judge....Steve S


No it is not!!! You cannot run a blind between the marks in senior. Per Jerry Mann - That applies to time also!. 



paul young said:


> IMHO, a really bad idea.
> 
> If that's the only body of water available, run the WB as a seperate series and use the area one of the marks will be thrown from as the point of origin, which should minimize scent interference when the marks are run later on.-Paul


That is the best answer IMHO. And exactly what Jerry said at the last seminar I attended.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Doug Main said:


> No it is not!!! You cannot run a blind between the marks in senior. Per Jerry Mann - That applies to time also!.
> 
> 
> What does a poison bird blind have to do with between the marks..? Please read carefully... If the dog runs the marks first, the blind is not to be between them ...If the blind is run first that does not apply....Please clarify " That applies to time also!.".... Steve S


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Howard N said:


> I couldn't find the above in the rule book. It might be there I just didn't find it. I did find the following which I knew was there:


Howard,
The quote is taken from an article that Performance Events published in Retriever Trial News though I don't have the original article. It has been reprinted in just about all the EE catalogs I've seen for the past year or so. (I tried to get RTN to send me a copy of the article so I could share it with my test committee but it got more complicated than I had time to deal with.) In other words only the judges can determine test set-ups and scoring. But if they do something against the rules, the Event Committee has the responsibility to step in. 
As to the original intent of the thread it's my opinion that a cold blind run between mark stations violates both the letter and spirit of rules for senior dogs. But, I could be wrong and would certainly defer to a determination by the AKC.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> Is a poison bird blind legal ( ok ) to run in a Sr ? I can't find that either ....Please help with all the missing info on what I can't do as a judge....Steve S


I would think that if you could do it, the "poison" would have to be a diversion bird, and not one of the marks, as the marks must be considered a true double. I have seen diversion birds-bull-dogs thrown in SH tests after a mark or blind has been picked up, I have not seen a poison scenario where the diversion was thrown before the blind, and the dog no'ed off the diversion. I don't ever recall reading anything in the book, saying you couldn't No off a diversion bird to run a blind, then pick up the diversion. Interesting...Others are right you had better wear your kevlar . Last Judging seminar I was at it all boiled down to the most important rule, "Everything not specifically stated in the rule book is at the Judges Discretion." Basically judge is GAWD and the only thing the Hunt test committee could do about it was not invite said Judge back, perhaps call the Rep if they were available (they usually side with the judge, unless some direct rule is being broken), or perhaps file a complaint, to be examined well after the event.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I would think that if you could do it, the "poison" would have to be a diversion bird, and not one of the marks, as the marks must be considered a true double. I have seen diversion birds-bull-dogs thrown in SH tests after a mark or blind has been picked up, I have not seen a poison scenario where the diversion was thrown before the blind, and the dog no'ed off the diversion. I don't ever recall reading anything in the book, saying you couldn't No off a diversion bird to run a blind, then pick up the diversion. Interesting...Others are right you had better wear your kevlar . Last Judging seminar I was at it all boiled down to the most important rule, *"Everything not specifically stated in the rule book is at the Judges Discretion.*" Basically judge is GAWD and the only thing the Hunt test committee could do about it was not invite said Judge back, perhaps call the Rep if they were available (they usually side with the judge, unless some direct rule is being broken), or perhaps file a complaint, to be examined well after the event.


I have never seen or set up a poison bird blind for a Sr dog but it is possible that some day someone will...I remember when Q blinds were always out side the marks too...I agree it would probably be a separate bird from the double thrown as the marks, but that is not to say the marks could be interrupted with a blind just as it is in the master...or Open or Am....(Bolding)That is the way it should be ....judges discretion as to the test set up...For all the possible things that a judge could do, a simple blind run before the marks is pretty mild...Steve S


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

There was a video posted of a test where the blind was run FIRST> From the line shot with a video camera it looked as if both bird stations were well camoed. There was about a 90 degree separation in the marks after the blind was run. There was a long discussion then on I believe here or on the Refuge about the test. I took my seminar not long after that and asked Jerry Mann about this. Until the marks are thrown there are NO marks yet. It was perfectly legal to run the blind FIRST as long as no marks were thrown for that dog on the line. Gulfcoast was at the same seminar and can correct me if I misquoted what I wrote down and heard.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> There was a video posted of a test where the blind was run FIRST> From the line shot with a video camera it looked as if both bird stations were well camoed. There was about a 90 degree separation in the marks after the blind was run. There was a long discussion then on I believe here or on the Refuge about the test. I took my seminar not long after that and asked Jerry Mann about this. Until the marks are thrown there are NO marks yet. It was perfectly legal to run the blind FIRST as long as no marks were thrown for that dog on the line. Gulfcoast was at the same seminar and can correct me if I misquoted what I wrote down and heard.


I marshalled and ran the test you are referencing Otey. None, 0, nottta single dog had a problem with it. 

Bird was thrown out into some lilly pads and you ran the blind 1st. Marks were well seperated but would have been very tight had the blind not been ran 1st. Go bird was closest to where the blind had been to eliminate the possibility of most dogs trying to return to the area.

Same seminar as you and GC and yes, Jerry agreed 100% within all rules either written or implied. Given the choices of the other setups, this was by far the fairest setup they could have used.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve.* Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Hunting Tests*.


Pay close attention to how the paragraph above is structured

Notice that It says "In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. "Blinds shall not be run *between marks * in Senior
Hunting Tests. " 

It does not say "Blinds shall not be run between THE marks"... a distinction with a difference.

When not where regards
john


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Fallon sometimes someone with your dogged attention to detail is useful! Hope all is well! 

So now then... does it mean placement, or order or retrieves or both?

The test as stated is still legal though LOL


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Maybe I don't know enough to know I should be scared, but I fully agree with you that a good SR dog should be under enough control to run such a blind, particularly if all the dogs run the blind first and then come back for the marks. Again, remind me I said that when we blow up on a setup like this. 

My only question was whether this was one of those things that you can do under the letter of the law but you probably shouldn't given the intent of the law. My argument probably breaks down a little given the fact that this is apparently not a new issue and there has been no change to the rules to specifically say you can't do it. 

Good discussion. 



Hunt'EmUp said:


> I'm sure there are many scent pockets in any field, that may tempt any dog, under any circumstance, however a blind is about control. Now perhaps it represents too much control to expect a Senior level dog to pull off a mark that it has seen drop and go for a blind, or run inbtw bird two stations where the dog has already seen marks launched out of. Perhaps that is just too much temptation, to expect appropriate control; at the senior level. Most senior level blinds I see run by or on the outside of at least one scent pocket of a bird that was launched and already picked up. However why cannot one expect a dog to run in control to a blind btw scent pockets, whether they are just out in the field from previous training groups or are scents pockets of marks that the dog doesn't know are going to exist? I don't know if there a difference, but I also haven't seen the setup happen yet. The only times I've seen this up the middle blind scenario, the blind was a separate series. All the dogs ran the blind, then the marks were setup and all the dog ran the marks


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

There are doubles, and then there are DOUBLES. There are blinds, and then there are BLINDS.

At the Senior level of testing the participants should be challenged by the non-capitalized versions of both. If their dogs were capable of doing Master level tests, they would enter Master.

Why some people would actually set up a poison bird blind at this level is a mystery to me. -Paul


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Running a blind is your and the dog's opportunity to show the judge that you have a passable level of training through cooperation, control and teamwork. This concern has been ran up the pole more than once and the AKC will support this situation. The reason is that since the marks have not been presented to the working dog, running the blind first you eliminate the issue of "between the marks". You can run the bind up the middle but before the marks are presented. Normally this is not done or preferred but due to available water options, it may need to be done. I have done it once at a senior level test.

If forced into this situation, the judges should consider running their land and water blinds together in a separate set up.

As a judge I try to find my blind first in the set up then look to some good marking opportunities paying special attention to the flyer and then work the bird placement of each mark. Its all about trying to set up something that will allow the judge an opportunity to judge your dog in all of the abilities. No tricks and running a blind up the middle is not a trick. Your dog should show control on all of its blind work. If the marks are properly placed and spaced minimal scenting conditions should arise. Regardless, running a blind off the back side of a live flyer gunner station on the outside of a double is typical and may be more difficult. Suction is all over the place in this case. Again, its about control and cooperation. Yes your dog may head to the gunner station but you are judged on how well did it listen and obey your commands to get it back on line and to ignore that area.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Back in the day my first dog and I went four for four in AKC senior and four for five in NAHRA intermediate. Some test were harder than others, nothing over the top and nothing so easy I felt it was a cinch. My feeling after each title, which was proved when hunting season started, was that this SH-WR titled dog was a solid all around hunting dog one would be proud to hunt over. Back then well over half the dogs in senior flat out didn't handle. Judges didn't need to set up super challenging blinds, the purpose of SH was to demonstrate competence on the typical. Lind you might find hunting.

Regarding setting up a blind in between two gun stations that haven't thrown yet, that could be harder than running after the marks are picked up. Nothing kills my dog like a hidden gunner my dog spots enroute to a blind. Senior Hunter blinds shouldn't be anywhere near a master in difficulty. The purpose of a SH title isn't to serve as a bridge to Master, it's a stand alone title that tells us something about that dog as a hunting companion.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
> tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
> diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
> defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
> ...


So John , Are you implying that interrupted marks is not allowed ? Most of us know the intent of this statement means the blind is to be on the outside of the marks... When the intent of a statement is unknown a problem will usually develop...Just as the defining that multiple marks means two birds thrown before the dog is sent to retrieve ....some didn't even understand what multiple marks are....Now we have to run 2 triples...spelled out in black and white so no confusion can arise...Some day we will have a script to follow for each level .....Steve S


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> So John ,* Are you implying that interrupted marks is not allowed ?* Most of us know the intent of this statement means the blind is to be on the outside of the marks... When the intent of a statement is unknown a problem will usually develop...Just as the defining that multiple marks means two birds thrown before the dog is sent to retrieve ....some didn't even understand what multiple marks are....Now we have to run 2 triples...spelled out in black and white so no confusion can arise...*Some day we will have a script to follow for each level *.....Steve S


The rule as written does not require much interpratation.

When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests." 
By its position in the paragraph and by using "between marks" (when) rather then "between THE marks" (where) , with this verbage the writer is telling us that these marks are to be then picked up without a blind being used as an interuption.

So, if it is not addresses elsewhere, the rules as writen are mute on* where *blinds are allowed to be run in a Sr HT and as such this remains a matter of judges discretion.......

john


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> The rule as written does not require much interpratation.
> 
> When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
> defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
> ...


Yup. That's why there are judges and then there's a group of people who have a license to judge. Too few of the former and too many of the latter, I'm afraid.....-Paul


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

After 2500 views and 70 posts some say yes and some say no. Then there is the Fallon view. Is there a way to get AKC to explain the rule?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> After 2500 views and 70 posts some say yes and some say no. Then there is the Fallon view. Is there a way to get AKC to explain the rule?


I guess it's one of those rules that is just ambiguous enough to flaunt. Running a senior blind up the middle between two gun stations is certainly more difficult than running a blind off the side away from the marks, so we seem to be violating the spirit of the rule as a minimum. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

I think the larger point here is the issue of evolving standards in hunt test. It is pretty obvious to me from reading this whole thread, that the average guy is training his or her dog more efficiently, reaching a higher standard with greater ease than was possible twenty years ago. I don't think that fact by and of itself should change the way a senior hunt test is judged. If 90% of senior dogs running today can easily do the typical senior as seen in 1995, does that obligate judges to ramp up the difficulty of the test, or pass a higher percentage of dogs? I believe the latter. I don't believe the SH title is cheapens just because it is more easily achieved by the average guy using a modern training program, it just means there are a lot more good dogs out in the marsh come hunting season.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> I guess it's one of those rules that is just ambiguous enough to flaunt. Running a senior blind up the middle between two gun stations is certainly more difficult than running a blind off the side away from the marks, so we seem to be violating the spirit of the rule as a minimum. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
> 
> I think the larger point here is the issue of evolving standards in hunt test. It is pretty obvious to me from reading this whole thread, that the average guy is training his or her dog more efficiently, reaching a higher standard with greater ease than was possible twenty years ago. I don't think that fact by and of itself should change the way a senior hunt test is judged. If 90% of senior dogs running today can easily do the typical senior as seen in 1995, does that obligate judges to ramp up the difficulty of the test, or pass a higher percentage of dogs? I believe the latter. I don't believe the SH title is cheapens just because it is more easily achieved by the average guy using a modern training program, it just means there are a lot more good dogs out in the marsh come hunting season.


Ditto. Good post.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

john fallon said:


> The rule as written does not require much interpratation.
> 
> When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
> defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
> ...


I see your point and agree with it...Words have meaning ....This point has never been brought up before to my knowledge...The intent as addressed in all the seminars and discussions has been on the where not the when...Good catch there John....Steve S


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mr Fallon!

That was pure excellence..
Even I understood that...
Makes perfect sence to me.

If however I ever judge, (I wont) I will not expect a Senior level dog to run a blind Placed between two seperated guns stations with birds, live and dead on the ground,realizing it doesn't make a bit of difference weather you run it first, Last , or tomorrow

I would think I could place a blind, separate of the marks, OR outside of them, and that by using even MINIMAL factors in route, have the dog and handler show me reasonable control...Not Master control..

I believe in the step program..

I have personally run the 13 step program several times,,, It seems to be work nicely to follow a progression...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John Robinson......

Very nicely said


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

john fallon said:


> The rule as written does not require much interpratation.
> 
> When, in discribing a double mark, something/someone says... In Senior tests, a double mark is
> defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. And then, staying in context, further amplifies the statement by saying, "Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests."
> ...


Although I do see your point in regard to context, I do not necessarily agree with the when/where statement.

I will walk between cars (where, but non specific). I will walk between THE cars (where, but specific to some previously mentioned cars).

Words DO have meaning, but they can have several meaning even in a single context.

The rule could be clarified to say:

"Blinds shall not be run after a set of marks have been presented to a dog, but prior to those marks being retrieved"

OR

"Blinds shall not be located between marks"

or some other wording that better specifies the intent of the rule


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

paul young said:


> There are doubles, and then there are DOUBLES. There are blinds, and then there are BLINDS.
> 
> At the Senior level of testing the participants should be challenged by the non-capitalized versions of both. If their dogs were capable of doing Master level tests, they would enter Master.
> 
> Why some people would actually set up a poison bird blind at this level is a mystery to me. -Paul


Exactly why I quit running senior so many years ago. All the bells and whistles of a master test are in a senior, why not wait and train to deal with another bird. From a judging perspective I would do everything I can to keep from putting a blind up the middle and running it first. That being said I ran a client dog in a senior some years ago and the judges explained that the blind would be ran last as a separate series. We ran the double, then they moved us around the pond and ran the blind through both fall areas of the previous double. If you don't like the blind being run first between two gun stations, then consider how much worse it could be.....

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Steve,
> when you answer Mr Fallon so directly like this, is your answer based on the rule book,, or based on the possible fact you have run a test or two like this before?
> 
> Trying to understand what is a Senior test and what isnt.
> ...


Based on rule book. 

/Paul


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

I have read everyone's post on this an have enjoyed reading everyone of them. This is a great discussion. I run and judge at the Jr and Sr levels. I believe in challenging dogs on setups an want to be a challenging test when I run my dogs. I for one would try my best as a judge NOT to put on this type of test as I agree at this level of dogs it can be to much. BUT IT IS A LEGAL TEST. An UNFAIR TEST BUT LEGAL TEST. An this is why SHALL NOT......... That is why. It doesn't say WILL NOT or CAN NOT. Read in rule book under PLANNING HUNTING SITUATIONS at the bottom of paragraph it states " while keep in mind the fact that retrieves should not normally exceed 100 yards." The key words was SHOULD NOT in that statement. How many test have we all ran at all levels the marks are over 100 yards? They can put them past 100yards because the wording SHOULD NOT. If the rule book read Blinds WILL NOT or CAN NOT be ran between marks in Senior Test it would make the test not legal. We all have thank AKC for this. I had this discussion with Jerry Mann myself an that was the key to the whole thing. Wording of the rules he pointed out. He AGREES with us on not being a fair test but it is legal because they ran the blind first. 

Like I said at beginning of this response I DON'T agree with blinds between marks at Senior level. But it was a legal test. I would make note of those judges an try NOT to run under them again. That's best way to deal with it.


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

Just so everyone know the reason I talk to Jerry Mann on this is because I have ran a Sr test on water that the blind was between the marks. It was more under the arc of one mark that bird landed way out in water an both marks where down wind of blind. Blind was ran first with invite to the marks. I give these judges good credit of take bird scent factory out. There was a 30+ dog field in this test an 20+ dogs passed the test. I was of them an it was for a title. That day I really felt I earned it. 

I DID NOT agree with the test but it was LEGAL cause blind was ran first. Plus I don't agree on running blinds before marks at senior level. Most dogs go out on blinds. So they don't even get to do the marks by running blind first. Not big fan at all


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

BBnumber1 said:


> The rule could be clarified to say:
> 
> "Blinds shall not be run after a set of marks have been presented to a dog, but prior to those marks being retrieved"
> 
> ...


Exactly right. And the fact that this issue seems to have been run up the flagpole before with no such clarifying change to the rules speaks volumes about what is permissible in an SH test IMHO. Still begs the question as to whether this should be done except as a matter of last resort.


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

Some of you are going to respond to my post on wording of rule book. I hope that your response is that the wording should be change so it not a GRAY area as I've been told me a time when discussion the rules. Make it clear to us all handlers and judges.


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

Thank you RookieTrainer.


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

So Wayne to answer you question. The Hunt Test Committee was INCORRECT in making the judges changing the test because it was within the rules of AKC.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

BBnumber1 said:


> Although I do see your point in regard to context, I do not necessarily agree with the when/where statement.
> 
> I will walk between cars (where, but non specific). I will walk between THE cars (where, but specific to some previously mentioned cars).
> 
> ...


What sucks though is they DONT say something like that,, and it leaves Huge interpretational opinions open,, and as such, the handler is the one who suffers, cause he doesnt know by reading the rules, what to expect,, OR he just says "screw it" and runs master.

I think most here agree that in TRAINING you TRAIN above the level you are thinking about running. So,, a Senior dog, probably has the training, and talent to run one of these tests, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT! The different levels are for Progression. Maybe as a handelr, you want to guage how solid your dogs work is compared to the Senior written standard. NOT what someones OPINION is about needing to challenge dogs more,, or setting up a Ball buster tests just to proove he can...
I dont believe a Senior test should be a Master minus one mark.

I wish I had a dog , and I wish that dog had a handler that could COMPETE at a higher level (FT) because the more things change,, COMPETITION makes far more sense to me now..

Gooser


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

You and I are on the same page Gooser...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> What sucks though is they DONT say something like that,, and it leaves Huge interpretational opinions open,, and as such, the handler is the one who suffers, cause he doesnt know by reading the rules, what to expect,, OR he just says "screw it" and runs master.
> 
> I think most here agree that in TRAINING you TRAIN above the level you are thinking about running. So,, a Senior dog, probably has the training, and talent to run one of these tests, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT! The different levels are for Progression. Maybe as a handelr, you want to guage how solid your dogs work is compared to the Senior written standard. NOT what someones OPINION is about needing to challenge dogs more,, or setting up a Ball buster tests just to proove he can...
> I dont believe a Senior test should be a Master minus one mark.
> ...


Field Trials have fewer gimmicks and goofyness going on. Way easier for the handler to focus on the dog and not the props and tricks that go along with a hunt test IMO.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

I know it is against the rules but I did it anyway. I contacted the AKC and got this reply from Mr Mann.

"Mr. John,

The official interpretation of the Regulations is that blinds in "Senior" tests may not be run between (physical location) the two marks of the double on either land or water.

While it may not be in the best interest of the judges to do so (when considering whether or not they want to be invited for future judging assignments) there is no Regulation against a judge/s requiring that a blind be picked up after one of the two marks has first been retrieved and before the second mark is retrieved!

I hope this helps with the clarification!!

Thanks,

Jerry D. Mann
Field Director
Sporting Breeds"


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include *one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water*), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Hunting Tests.



Even though the the last sentence of the above paragraph when read in conjunction with the next to the last sentence states what* could [/] be construed as a prohibition to do so... The AKC has spoken, so to extrapolate

Is it then permisable to interrupt one of the two required double marks with a double blind consisting of one land blind and one water blind?

john*


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

Gooser I totally with your last statement there. Believe me I have ran Sr test that were hard then a master going on at same time. As I have stated earlier as a handler and a judge I believe in challenging dogs. But be fair about.


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

I can say this. Most of time when we all run into this. Key words there is MOST. You have the most points carrying judge trying to impress their co-judge. Or a Master level judge not toning down from Master level. I really didn't want to make that statement but it's true because I have personally witness it as a judge when I first started judging. I spoke my piece to those judges an some agree an change setups an others didn't agree with me. One even over ruled me on a setup because they were high point judge. I have noted not to judge or run dogs under judges like that.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

jacduck said:


> I know it is against the rules but I did it anyway. I contacted the AKC and got this reply from Mr Mann.
> 
> "Mr. John,
> 
> ...



I GIVE UP!

I am more confused now than ever. 

Before someone says " Gooser , do we need to draw you a picture"?


Will some body PLEASE draw Gooser a picture?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
> tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include *one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water*), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
> diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
> defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
> ...


*

The Field Rep from the AKC just said it was permissible; however, it's un-necessary to do so to find out which dogs deserve a Senior pass and ribbon.

Senior Judges shouldn't be afraid to judge. Those that are, are forced to eliminate with over the top tests. In senior, the dogs which are not sufficiently trained will fail a difficult, straight up test. You don't need to do this kind of stuff.

There are many people who participate in Senior level tests who have no aspiration to run Master tests. Interrupted marks were the 'test du jour' in region 1 Master tests this past year, so why do it in Senior?-Paul*


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I also agree with Gooser. Each level is its own level with its own requirements. Demonstrate the skills for that level and your good. As a judge its up to me to set a fair test that demonstrates that dogs ability based on its level. Shame on me as a judge for not doing that.

/Paul


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm with gooser. Did the Mann say u can't run between two gun stations of a double before the marks are thrown? Or not? Is this different than what the Mann said in the seminar attended by GC and others?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

REmember,, I am NOT COMPLAINING.. I willtrain for what I need to to pass a test,,, But,,


What on earth is the thinking from AKC officials to require a dog in testing to see a diversion bird ON ITS WAY OUT on a blind retrieve.

A SENIOR DOG! A dog that most of us have spent considerable amount of time getting them to have good blind attitude, to RUN STRAIGHT as sent, only then in testing to have a judge deliberately erode that momentum with a diversion on a dogs route TO a blind?

I just dont get this at ALL for a Senior dog.

A diversion bird on the RETURN of a mark or a Blind is FINE with me I get it,,, But why with young dogs,as the dog is going??? ON A BLIND??? The part of a dogs training we work so hard at getting them to GO,,, and then stay straight??
I mean really,, Is this the only way you can come up with to test control?

Rule book says the following.


Section 25. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve either
after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is returning
from the blind retrieve; however, diversion birds shall
only appear on marks when the dog is returning from a
retrieve.
Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of
the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but
constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved
by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or
thrown when the working dog is in a location that it
should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air
and as it falls.
Section 26. Weather. Weather is an important
consideration for the hunting test event committee.
The safety of participants and animals is of utmost
importance. Extreme weather such as lightening, strong
winds, heat or cold, snow or heavy rain can create
hazardous conditions. The hunting test event committee,
in consultation with the judges, has the responsibility to
decide if an event should be halted due to weather and
at what point the event shall resume. If a weather delay
results in an entrant being unable to participate, the
refund of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the
discretion of the event committee. If an entire event or
part of an event is cancelled due to weather, the refund
of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the discretion
of the event committee.


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

Gooser I agree with you on this one for senior dogs. If you need to do that to see control at Sr level evidently you have weak blind. Gooser how dogs were lost on the blind?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Section 25. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve either
after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is returning
from the blind retrieve; however, diversion birds shall
only appear on marks when the dog is returning from a
retrieve.

This is the result of a rewriting on the section to limit the use of bird thrown as the dog is going out to a mark....An actual hunting situation deemed not good by the AKC ...Too many concerns over to handle for changing selection of bird in route or it being called a switch by some ( not an actual switch )....and the handle being counted against the dog...and a switch resulted in an elimination...Dogs pop as the extra bird was thrown or shot , now what ...a pop ? How do judges handle that incident..? This was never meant to to do any thing but stop the use of a bird in route to a mark...Poison birds on blinds before the dog is sent or in route has always been allowed...Steve S


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## cubdriver (Jan 1, 2006)

IMHO, Tests for senior dogs should be set up to test the dogs, not to trick them. Based on input, it may be legal, but I think that one should consider the reason blinds are not to be run after marks when in between the marks for senior dogs. That rule is to keep things a bit more straight forward for senior dogs. Any rule can be stretched a bit to make things more difficult for them, but I don't think that should be our mind set. Things can be made plenty tough enough without working on the fringes of any rule. That is why poison birds can only be thrown at the appropriate time during marks and blinds and why distances are established for marks and blinds, etc.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

cubdriver said:


> IMHO, Tests for senior dogs should be set up to test the dogs, not to trick them. Based on input, it may be legal, but I think that one should consider the reason blinds are not to be run after marks when in between the marks for senior dogs. That rule is to keep things a bit more straight forward for senior dogs. *Any rule can be stretched a bit to make things more difficult for them,* but I don't think that should be our mind set. Things can be made plenty tough enough without working on the fringes of any rule. That is why poison birds can only be thrown at the appropriate time during marks and blinds and why distances are established for marks and blinds, etc.



If you think running the blind before the marks is making things tough ,I would examine all the other possible situations...When ever this has been done when I was present it simplified things...not tougher....Steve S


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I agree Steve


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I was lucky enough today to sit down and talk with Jerry Mann about this. The bottom line as far as AKC goes is that if the marks are not thrown before the blind is run there are NO marks that the blind is run between. A mark is not a mark until it is presented.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> If you think running the blind before the marks is making things tough ,I would examine all the other possible situations...When ever this has been done when I was present it simplified things...not tougher....Steve S


If the judges set a blind up the middle of a virgin field, ran the blind then later put some guns out and threw a double mark, I would agree with you, but to run a land blind between two gun stations is a bit over the top in a señor test in my opinion. Plus having the memory and scent left over from the blind adds difficulty to the marks. It may legal but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> The bottom line as far as AKC goes is that if the marks are not thrown before the blind is run there are NO marks that the blind is run between. A mark is not a mark until it is presented.




I'm not a fan of second hand information... If the AKC has a position on the blind between the marks matter, It should be sent out as an insert to the rule book.

john


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Here's another passage from the rule book:



"On blind retrieves, wherever possible, the Judges shall 
plan their hunting situations taking advantage of hazards, 
such as islands, decoys, points of land, sandbars, ditches, 
hedges, small bushes, adjacent heavy cover, and rolling 
terrain.* Despite such natural distractions, it shall be *
*possible for a dog to find a well-planned blind-retrieve on *
*the initial line from its handler; that it will do so is highly *
*improbable because of those natural hazards, so it must *
*be handled to the blind. *The hunting situation should be 
planned so that the dog should be in sight continuously. A 
blind retrieve is a test of Trainability (control, response). A 
dog that is out-of-sight for a considerable period cannot be 
said to be under control. Utilizing *natural hazards *provides 
better opportunity to evaluate the abilities required of a 
superb Retriever.

Gooser doesnt believe a Bird station with BB sitting in it 100 yrds away from the line, with Birds in Crates , Or dead in buckets are NATURAL Distractions.

For a Judge to use a gun station IN SENIOR to test a dog on how it handles under natural conditions, isnt following the spirt of the rules.. That Judge has an EGO,, and is trying to trick a YOUNG dog,, then Gloat later of how his test "Ate Dogs"

How is a Gun Station a Natural distraction as defined above in the rules??

I am still lost.

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

AND believe me!

Right now I can hear a LOT you guys sitting behind you key boards sayin "Oh that whiney Gooser... He needs to come to here and run MY test! We'll find out then what that flea bag a his is made of!"

Really? Is THAT what this program is about??


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I wanna thank you all though,, You sure have me pourin through the rule book during the free time I dont have,!

Gooser


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Geez Gooser, ya saying that bird boy is unnatural? 

Whadayathink his momma would say?

:twisted:


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> It may legal but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.


What seems to be lost in the conversation is that even those who've said it was legal per the rules have also said that they don't do it except under unusual circumstances. There's one pond at the cattle ranch that I've said that I will not use ever again because the only choice is to do the blinds and marks in this fashion. You can set up all manner of different blinds and marks but every set comes down to this issue. So, yes it is legal but no, none of us like to do it ... at least no one I've ever judged Senior with.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

And to gooses, I've never set a test with the intent to trick or eat up dogs. Nor have I bragged about it later. Mostly I've reflected and wished I could have done a better job. No test is perfect. 

/Paul


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> "He needs to come to here and run MY test!"
> 
> "That Judge has an EGO,, and is trying to trick a YOUNG dog,, then Gloat later of how his test "Ate Dogs"


Therein lies the problem with some judges. How many lament that their test "Ate Dogs" ? Particularly at the lower levels.

I am editing this to emphasize the word SOME in the above sentence. Certainly not all and like gooser says below, sometimes what looks doable is just not what it seems.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I haven't judged much but have set up lots of training scenarios. Sometimes I will setup thinking it is straight forward and the dogs do terrible.
I don't think judges set out to trick or fail dogs. They do like me some time and don't realize how deceptive the setup is.
A judge recently asked me what I thought of the land series. I told him I thought the blind was difficult and he replied yes it was deceptively so. I thought that was an honest response.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I didnt say ALL judges do,, I said SOME Judges MIGHT.

Like some here that have posted earlier, that have said that IN THEIR OPINION,, AKC or WE should expect more out of dogs, than the standard may state.

Thats THEIR opinion. Either they are setting tests up to advance that opinion deliberately,, or they dont understand the standard, and make mistakes.

So, Based on this discussion we have had, that is pages long, clearly interprets the running rules differently,, How do you prepare a dog for Senior?

I believe MANY had decided to say Screw Senior,, and just run Master. I think that is a shame, and is a black eye on the venue.

Gooser


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

There is a way to trick a young dog by running a blind between the gun stations before the marks are thrown and there are ways to NOT trick a dog by running the blind between the gun stations before the marks are thrown.

There is a way to trick a dog by running a blind outside the gun stations after the marks are thrown and picked up and there are ways NOT to trick a dog by running a blind to the outside of marks before the marks are thrown .
One would have to see the test first ,,,right,,
tests should contain meat,,but shouldn't be tricky ,,a toddler can trick a dog. Sometimes there's a fine line between the 2 depending who 's eyes are looking at it.
Pete


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think that there is a difference between a test that is too hard for the particular class of dog (e.g. under the arc poison bird blind in Qualifying) and a test that is intended to trick a dog (e.g. dry guns in a marking test)

It seems that most people here are concerned that certain tests are inappropriately difficult for Senior level dogs - not that the judges are employing a deceptive technique.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> If the judges set a blind* up the middle of a virgin field,* ran the blind then later put some guns out and threw a double mark, I would agree with you, but to run a land blind between two gun stations is a bit over the top in a señor test in my opinion. Plus having the memory and scent left over from the blind adds difficulty to the marks. It may legal but *that doesn't mean it's a good idea.*


I have never seen or set up a land blind up the middle...Like Eric said , it is water blinds where this occurs ...AND usually this is the best alternative to the situation ...Making the best of what a judge has to deal with is part of the game...Stay with in the boundary of the rules and do the best you can to meet the requirements of the test...If most could avoid it I'm sure they would rather do something different...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I think that there is a difference between a test that is too hard for the particular class of dog (e.g. under the arc poison bird blind in Qualifying) and a test that is intended to trick a dog (e.g. dry guns in a marking test)
> 
> It seems that most people here are concerned that certain tests are *inappropriately difficult for Senior level dogs *- not that the judges are employing a deceptive technique.


And some just want come and pick up the ribbons ...Some have higher expectations of dogs ability than others...A blind is about control ...The dog should sit on a whistle and take a cast.. They may need a few more whistles than the master dog does to complete the same blind...Natural hazards include points, islands,logs,stick ups and the like...Not just open water across the 35 yard pond to the bank ,which is what a up the middle water blind before the marks usually is ...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I haven't judged much but have set up lots of training scenarios. Sometimes I will setup thinking it is straight forward and the dogs do terrible.
> I don't think judges set out to trick or fail dogs. They do like me some time and don't realize how deceptive the setup is.
> A judge recently asked me what I thought of the land series. I told him I thought the blind was difficult and he replied yes it was deceptively so. I thought that was an honest response.


Wayne, I don't believe there is a single judge that can honestly say they never regret a set up for some reason..I have mine for sure...I always remember it at every event too....Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Here's another passage from the rule book:
> 
> Gooser doesnt believe a Bird station with BB sitting in it 100 yrds away from the line, with Birds in Crates , *Or dead in buckets are NATURAL Distractions.
> *
> ...


How much more natural can you get than bird scent..? Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

john fallon said:


> I'm not a fan of second hand information... If the AKC has a position on the blind between the marks matter, It should be sent out as an insert to the rule book.
> 
> john


John , this was resolve way back...You gave us the correct interpretation of the rule concerning the when and where...Steve S


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> How much more natural can you get than bird scent..? Steve S



And so you all see the problem.

Steve reads this from the rules:

"On blind retrieves, wherever possible, the Judges shall 
plan their hunting situations taking advantage of hazards, 
such as islands, decoys, points of land, sandbars, ditches, 
hedges, small bushes, adjacent heavy cover, and rolling 
terrain.

Then HE decides to interpret it to include birds laying on the ground to deliberately distract a young dog, even though the RULES give VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of their suggestions of what a GOOD judge should use..
Steve wants to inject HIS opinion of what a Senior dog should be capable of. He then wants to attack folks that read the rules, and expect to have a fair test presented to them by representatives of AKC, by calling them ribbon chasers... Its NOT about YOU steve!

I know for a fact, Ted can set up a blind with a bird placed in the middle of a road,, and you will pull your hair out tyin to keep the dog on line(In the middle of the road) challenging that blind..

The simple ditch on either side of the road is the distraction... You will very quickly get your answers if a dog can sit, and take a cast... and carry it.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> And some just want come and pick up the ribbons ...Some have higher expectations of dogs ability than others...A blind is about control ...The dog should sit on a whistle and take a cast.. They may need a few more whistles than the master dog does to complete the same blind...Natural hazards include points, islands,logs,stick ups and the like...Not just open water across the 35 yard pond to the bank ,which is what a up the middle water blind before the marks usually is ...Steve S


The issue I'm having with you is it seems that you are advocating for judges and handlers to expect more of a SH level dog than the standard calls for. I remember Senior blinds being quite basic as these dogs and handlers were in the transition level of training. The test basically culled out the dogs that couldn't handle period, which was the majority.

None of us are arguing for cheap ribbons, we just feel that judges should set up test in the spirit of the Standard as written. I am speaking in general, not some rare circumstance where due to poor grounds or such, the judges hands are tied.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Back when my first dog and I were passing Senior hunt test, but nowhere near ready for Master, my dog was a solid duck hunter. He marked well and handled on 100 yard blinds across the pond. The guys I hunted with certainly considered him a Working Retriever, the appropriately named NAHRA title he also earned that summer.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> And so you all see the problem.
> 
> Steve reads this from the rules:
> 
> ...


 And dogs like to run down the middle of the road or path so we do all kinds of angle drills to to counter act their natural desires...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> The issue I'm having with you is it seems that you are advocating for judges and handlers to expect more of a SH level dog than the standard calls for. I remember Senior blinds being quite basic as these dogs and handlers were in the transition level of training. The test basically culled out the dogs that couldn't handle period, which was the majority.
> 
> None of us are arguing for cheap ribbons, we just feel that judges should set up test in the spirit of the Standard as written. I am speaking in general, not some rare circumstance where due to poor grounds or such, the judges hands are tied.


No. I'm not advocating the dog perform more than the standard..Just up too it...Some judges ( and trainers) have higher expectations for dogs performance than others...Just look at all the test you have seen run , some or tougher ,harder or what ever words you want to describe them with than others that were just give me test...I have never seen a hard blind when it was run between the marks ( as some want to describe it ) that had any suction created by the placement of the two marks...If a Sr or Jr dog is expected to run marks just as long as the master dogs, can't we assume they(SR) should be able to do blinds just as long ..? With a little more leniency than a master dog though ... I agree 100 % that test should be set up in the spirit of the standard as written ...We all don't agree on what that standard of performance is though...do we ? A good job in one person's eyes is poor or excellent in another person...Steve S


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Steve responded to my comment as follows:
Steves question in red. 

_Then *HE decides to interpret it to include birds laying on the ground to deliberately distract a young dog,* even though the RULES give VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of their suggestions of what a GOOD judge should use.._
*Where did this come from ? That was an old field trial trick to stake birds down way of line to get dogs hung up and not cast off...not me...Steve s

**Steve I am talking about live ducks in crates at the flyer station, and the dead birds at the memory bird station. The TWO stations you want to require a Senior dog to run a blind between.. *


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> Back when my first dog and I were passing Senior hunt test, but nowhere near ready for Master, my dog was a solid duck hunter. He marked well and handled on 100 yard blinds across the pond. The guys I hunted with certainly considered him a Working Retriever, the appropriately named NAHRA title he also earned that summer.


Any good working retriever should be able to get that 1oo yard blind...I'm sure your dog performed very well in the duck blind...Was the reason you weren't ready for master is because the polish wasn't there yet? As any Sr titled dog usually is ....Steve S


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> Any good working retriever should be able to get that 1oo yard blind...I'm sure your dog performed very well in the duck blind...Was the reason you weren't ready for master is because the polish wasn't there yet? As any Sr titled dog usually is ....Steve S



I'm out!

Steve Good luck with your endeavors.. You and your mentality is the problem in HT games.. 

I would just as soon NOT not run ANY of them,, and just work VERY hard at Training that really nice working duck dog..

Good luck.

Gooser


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Steve responded to my comment as follows:
> Steves question in red.
> 
> _Then *HE decides to interpret it to include birds laying on the ground to deliberately distract a young dog,* even though the RULES give VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of their suggestions of what a GOOD judge should use.._
> ...


I don't believe I made that statement ...BUT...it is what will happen when you don't run the blind up the middle before the marks are thrown..Never seen flyers shot in this situation ...I wouldn't put the line to the blind as close as I would if it were a master dog...Give them a chance to handle off it a few more times before they totally turn the handler off....I made the statement that scent is quite natural in the dog world ...When you hunt and have killed several bird there is scent(and feathers ) all over the place or you pull in to your favorite duck hole and flush birds out of it...Dogs have to be taught to deal with scent from an early age in training ...I don't have a problem with your post because we have all seen ridiculous test set up by some judges...Any situation can be carried too far in difficulty... This started out about a blind before marks being legal or not ..They aren't marks until they are thrown for the dog...there is just scent spots on the ground that a dog should handle off of if necessary ...I have never seen that come into play in all my years of doggin' ...But ,if the dog did get into one I would give them several attempts to get out of it..But, they would be so far off line my co-judge would probably zero the dog for being out of control anyway...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I'm out!
> 
> Steve Good luck with your endeavors.. You and your mentality is the problem in HT games..
> 
> ...



Same to you , best wishes with your dogs...keep training ....Steve S


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

A dog that can not run a 40 blind with a gun station 80 yards steep angle to the left of the handler,,, and a gun station 80 yards steep angle right of the handler is not ready for any kind of senior. And is also useless for the most part as a hunting dog. I think you guys need to find a new training program if you find this legal scenario difficult or unfair.
Waaaa Waaaaa

Pete


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

There is no doubt on my mind that these highly qualified judges set up a solid challenging Senior level blind. I will admit that it danced on the fringes of the rule book though. The only regretful aspect is that the Hunt Test Committee got involved and took the "safe route" by asking them to change it. I would have preferred that the HTC didn't succumb to the pressure from a few nervous handlers with cell phones.

JO


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> Any good working retriever should be able to get that 1oo yard blind...I'm sure your dog performed very well in the duck blind...Was the reason you weren't ready for master is because the polish wasn't there yet? As any Sr titled dog usually is ....Steve S


That was my whole point, my dog was a very solid Senior Hunter at that point, it took another season of training for him to start passing Masters. The difference between Senior and Master is huge, just the way it was designed.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Pete said:


> A dog that can not run a 40 blind with a gun station 80 yards steep angle to the left of the handler,,, and a gun station 80 yards steep angle right of the handler is not ready for any kind of senior. And is also useless for the most part as a hunting dog. I think you guys need to find a new training program if you find this legal scenario difficult or unfair.
> Waaaa Waaaaa
> 
> Pete


 Is that the set up we are talking about? I'm fine with my training program by the way, I just have a problem with pushing the rules. Are we talking about a real situation or hypothetical? It sounds real from council oaks comment.

John


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Gooser, unless you are really "out", , go back and read post 69. What is described there is what I have seen, and I believe it would have been FAR easier to run a blind between two stations that had not fired. And the real issue is what he pointed out. The test was set up to create suction. What matters is what the dog does when you stop him and cast him away from the factors. Personally, I am in the camp that believes the rule book refers to when, not where, the blind is run.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> Is that the set up we are talking about?


If so, the HT committee should have jumped in and told them that 80 yards is too long for the walk up


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Is that the set up we are talking about? I'm fine with my training program by the way, I just have a problem with pushing the rules. Are we talking about a real situation or hypothetical? It sounds real from council oaks comment.


Wayne was not specific enough to determine weather it was a good senior test or not.
The AKC rep says its OK to run a blind between the holding blinds
Its peoples contention that it is either illegal or legal but not fair for a senior dog. I would commend the judges for doing something different yet very doable for most senior dogs . I personally get tired of looking at the same thing. 
I gave a scenario that was easier than 95 percent of all the senior tests one will ever see and legal to boot. I forgot to mention it was in low cover
People still have problems with it because its out of the norm of a double then a blind
John
You missed my point entirely which means most new people did too.
As far as training programs go I'm sure yours is just fine. I used that as a figure of speech,,,meaning one should train for more than less of the minimum before they run a test. Running simple blinds between marks is part of any good basic /transitional program let alone hidden guns
If a dog cannot run the scenario I gave then they aren't ready for any senior.,,,but because they are required to run a blind first its considered a bad test. That is just silly.


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## skelso (Apr 29, 2009)

Wayne, I don't get on RTF much anymore but while at the WARC test today I was told about this thread. I almost hate to resurrect it but after reading through the pages and pages speculation, I felt it important to give you my perspective as the chairman of the test in question. For the record, I was running in your senior flight so while I facilitated the decisions, I removed myself from the vote because I felt it a conflict of interest for me to weigh in my opinion. 

Here's the story on the senior test setups:

We initially gave the judges a pond behind headquarters. They chose to setup on the far end and the only thing they could do was an up the middle cold blind before the marks. The right hand station would be completely hidden, but the left station would be between the road and the pond so you walk right past it on the way to the line. A pop would be fired from that station while you were in the holding blind, then you come out and run the blind. The person designated by the committee to review the setup looked at it and stated he didn't like running up the middle but saw there was little option on that end of the pond. He then requested they move the left station to a peninsula on the other side of the pond so it would be hidden, the dogs wouldn't walk past all that smell, and the pop wouldn't be quite so influencial. The judges agreed. 

That night we had heavy rains. There was no where to turn around past the pond without causing substantial damage to the property. Out of respect for the landowner, we decided to make everyone park at headquarters and walk in. The walk was just shy of 300 yards (shot with a range finder) over very slippery, uneven terrain. The judges asked if they could change water. After looking at the new water, they setup what they wanted. While they were setting up, the committee met briefly and discussed the blind down the middle issue. after consulting with (5) judges,rulebook in hand, and there was no clear decision on whether it was legal or not. The hangup was "Is a mark a mark if it hasn't been thrown yet?" After discussing, our designated person reviewed the test and told them that in his opinion the new water offered more opportunity for other setups and asked that they consider a blind outside the marks. He also relayed the committee's concern of a possible rule violation and made the recommendation we error on the side of caution since no one could agree if it was a legal setup or not. After some discussion, the judges agreed and made quick changes to: the line location, location of the left station, and the blind location. The test was approved and run. 

Here's the part I want everyone to understand... Just like your own clubs, we are all volunteers who try to make the best decision we can with the information we have at the time. We all knew this was one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" decisions. If we didn't change it, people would complain we ran a test in violation of the rules. If we changed it people would claim their dog failed because we changed the test. I stand by our decision because it was made to avoid a possible rule violation. In those decisions I would always error on the side of what we know is within the rules. On Monday following the test, one of the judges e-mailed Jerry Mann and he said the up the middle blind would have been acceptable. The e-mail was forwarded to me and forwarded by me to the rest of the committee. Now that we have a definate answer from the rep, we have different information upon which to base future decisions.

As I said, I ran the test. I assume my dog would have run the up the middle blind easier than the blind that was ultimately setup but we'll never know as she didn't get to try either. She headswung after the right bird went off never seeing it fall. I attempted to handle her to it but she sucked back to the old fall and no matter how much I casted, begged, pleaded, prayed, etc I couldn't get her out of the area before she established a hunt. No question, she failed fair and square.

I have since given a single bullet to one of my training partners with specific instuctions... "If I ever volunteer, or let myself be volunteered, to be chairman again, take this bullet and shoot me!". This was one of the most displeasurable things I have done in life to date...


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## skelso (Apr 29, 2009)

I re-read that comment twice before posting but I guess I shoould have read it 3 times before hitting send... My wording may come across strong, but I assure all of you it was not my intent. The intent of the post was to clarify that the committee didn't force the judges to change anything, we merely suggested it and presented our resoning. The judges agreed to the change. I also wanted to make clear the circumstances leading up to, and the amount of thought put into the decision. It ws a tough call no matter how you look at it.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

skelso said:


> .....I have since given a single bullet to one of my training partners with specific instuctions... "If I ever volunteer, or let myself be volunteered, to be chairman again, take this bullet and shoot me!". This was one of the most displeasurable things I have done in life to date...


so sorry,
such a bummer to read.
judges get thanked and gifted.
dog handlers get ribbons and clapping hands.
landowners are thanked and sometimes even paid.

event chair never gets anything and has to fill in the ruts and pick up the trash on the way out and give the key back.
many of us reading and typing have done the job a few times.
many more have not!

an event can take on a life of its own as a clutter pile on the kitchen table
Thank You for doing the thankless job. We all have felt your single bullet thought.
I hope it is not your last chair job. Too few of us are there stepping up.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Actually, Ken, our club has thanked the Chairman & Hunt Test Secretary with a gift, similar to our judges gifts or something of equal value in the past. The gifts have been presented either at the test or at the meeting after the test. The immediate meeting this time happened two days after our test and the Chairman was out of town. I have nothing to do with it this time, but figured the presentation would happen at our November meeting if the Chairman and HT Secretary are present.

We have done this for many years and we do appreciate our volunteers who take on these big jobs emensely!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

2tall said:


> Gooser, unless you are really "out", , go back and read post 69. What is described there is what I have seen, and I believe it would have been FAR easier to run a blind between two stations that had not fired. And the real issue is what he pointed out. The test was set up to create suction. What matters is what the dog does when you stop him and cast him away from the factors. Personally, I am in the camp that believes the rule book refers to when, not where, the blind is run.


Carol, I'm not sure what you are saying, but check the post I quoted below. There is only 1 "where" question and there are 2 "when" questions.

1. Where - blind can not be physically located between the marks
2. When #1 - Judges CAN require marks to be thrown, 1 mark picked up and then a blind run before picking up the second mark. In this respect, the rule everyone is debating is NOT about WHEN.
3. When #2 - Judges CAN require the blind to be run between (physical location - "where") the marks before the marks are thrown because they are not considered marks until they are thrown. Judges CANNOT require the blind to be run between (physical location - "where") the marks after the marks have been thrown (this is what the rule is actually addressing) because they are now not just gun stations but actual marks. This supersedes the "where" in my #1 above because they aren't marks until they are thrown.

So it is a where AND a when question but the "when" determines "where" the blind can be placed. Clear as mud? Apparently it is a lot easier to understand than it is to explain. I've run at least one Senior test where this was required. I don't remember anything about it except what dog I was running, the fact that it was on water, the fact that it caused a lot of consternation, and my dog did fine on the blind and passed the test. I don't remember specifically but I don't think it caused a massive bloodbath in the callbacks or ribbons awarded, so I guess the dogs were generally able to handle it although there may have been some casualties from it.

While I don't think it is generally a good idea if for no other reason than all of the controversy and consternation, I don't see it as a huge deal for a good senior dog. Think of all the times we run Junior in one location and Senior in another on Saturday and we switch on Sunday or we may even switch in the same day. You've got all kinds of scent from the line, marks and gun stations in the previous set up and the dog may have to run through some or all of those (may not be using the same running line, etc.). I don't see this as a whole lot different from that. If judges have to set it up due to the limitations of the grounds or water they were given then go for it IMO. If they are setting it up just to mess with folks (and dogs) then they probably should have done something different IMO but it is legal. 



jacduck said:


> I know it is against the rules but I did it anyway. I contacted the AKC and got this reply from Mr Mann.
> 
> "Mr.
> John,
> ...


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Skelso. I don't remember you as I am just coming back to akc and don't know as many people as I do in hrc. But I would like to meet you, shake your hand and say thank you.


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## skelso (Apr 29, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> so sorry,
> such a bummer to read.
> judges get thanked and gifted.
> dog handlers get ribbons and clapping hands.
> ...


Ken, I'm sure it won't be my last time chairing a test. That was meant as humor for those of you reading it that have "been there, done that" and can relate to the "just shoot me now" feeling. In real life I am a project manager, managing high risk projects in crisis situations. So I'm no stranger to high stress levels, and quick action on limited information...


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