# Describe your Bottom to me.



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Well that dog has a lot of bottom.
That dog better have a lot of bottom.
Your going to need a dog with a lot of bottom to get through that program.

When You use the word bottom when talking dogs, what are you personally talking about?

I think there are a few definitions.

It’s getting so I don’t know my own bottom.

Help me.

.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

The glutes that you smack with the training stick?

Amy Dahl


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

like John here-


john fallon said:


> I hope that young dog has a lot of "bottom";-)
> 
> john


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

afdahl said:


> The glutes that you smack with the training stick?
> 
> Amy Dahl


 
HA!!! Coffee out the nose..... 

Don't fear Ken, my bottom is huge and I often times have no idea where it is-especially in the field. Fortunately my boys have enough to keep going and keep trying. 

both hands & a flashlight in the dark regards,


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I equate a lot of bottom with being able to take a lot pressure and still perform.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

The first seminar I went to, running my NFC Prize daughter and being pretty green, the instructor said something about me having a lot of bottom to work with there and he sure liked it. I'd already been shown I didn't understand much of this language in the first 5 minutes when the instructor asked me what kind of progrm I was using, Lardy or ? Direct/indirect pressure? Attrition? He might has well have been speaking Swahili, that is how green I was. So the bottom comment was explained as a dog that can take a lot of pressure, bounces back from correction, learns from it, doesn't pout and hold a grudge and is ready and willing to keep going, be it big water, ton of cover, difficult new concept, etc.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

I recently saw some photos of a guy in a swamp up to his knees and another guy with a handful of explosives of some sort. I'm not 100% certain of the final outcome, but if that guy would get back in that swamp AGAIN, I would say he had a lot of bottom. 

JS


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> I equate a lot of bottom with being able to take a lot pressure and still perform.


Or, to expand this, not just pressure but discouragement, mistakes, punishing conditions, confusion, fatigue, injury, being asked to to more than they were ever trained for, and never showing ANY SIGN of doubt or worry, nothing but the unflagging desire to rise to the challenge.

The kind that inspire us. And create a need for us to take responsibility for their safety; John tells a story about Pam Bird going out into the field to get Itchin' To Go so he wouldn't hunt himself to death on a mark.

Amy Dahl


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Hmm...
I guess I think a dog with a lot of bottom, has, no fear...


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Bottom can be developed to a point that someone would say hey that dogs got alot of bottom,,
but in reality if it wasnt developed some one would say,to the same exact dog ,,,man that dog is soft and cant handle pressure,,it'l never make it

Pete


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Describing Taffey's "bottom" brings back fond memories. 

Three things come to mind. First, ever since she was a pup, Taffey took each day as another great adventure, and if I made a mistake.....her eyes would say, "Hey, forget about it. What's next?" 

She always seemed to deal with anything I threw at her with a body language that oozed, "That was easy. What's next?" 

And lastly, Taffey always embraced work and has a huge heart to support her desires. I'm sure if she could talk, she'd say, "It's been a lot of fun. What's next?"


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

To me, and animal with bottom has the depth of character to try their hardest to succeed at the task given, regardless of anything else.
Whistler has a ton of bottom, Carbon an average amount, Barbour, new puppy, has more than Carbon did at this age.
Whistler would try no matter what, Carbon might quit after trying a little while, that damn puppy does not quit. However, it is not a chicken thing, as Carbon will protect me to the end of the earth. It is a work ethic thing.
And Carbon has it, but not like his dad.
A horse with bottom will take a jump or a cue even in adverse circumstances, they are the ones you want with you in a thunderstorm.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

To me, a dog with a lot of bottom means it's a long way to the last of what the dog has to give.....a deep well of courage and heart and try that seems endless....it's a long way to the bottom.


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

afdahl said:


> Or, to expand this, not just pressure but discouragement, mistakes, punishing conditions, confusion, fatigue, injury, being asked to to more than they were ever trained for, and never showing ANY SIGN of doubt or worry, nothing but the unflagging desire to rise to the challenge.
> 
> The kind that inspire us.
> 
> Amy Dahl


 Ditto,and to use another word for it---Grit !


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I have always thought of bottom as will the dog run on sheer guts and determination, or when you think the dog has no more to give, it reaches down and gives you just a little more...I have seen what I thought was the bottom with a few dogs, but just like when I drive a vehicle I do not like to drive on fumes, because when the tank is dry you are stranded and help may be a long time in coming


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I'd say as a beginner trainer, I hope I never find it!!!!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

The dog with bottom will go till he drops, forgive endless handler errors, never get discouraged with learning something new, is always ready to roll, comes back from correction with a smiling face and wagging tail, saying "let's give it another shot" and fears absolutely nothing. My definition of dog with bottom?...............See signature line below. That's it.


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## justchessys (Dec 2, 2005)

I stand to be corrected but I think it is an old horse saying, meaning strong desire to run will not quite, with dogs it means strong desire to hunt will not quit and be able to take pressure, just my 2ct.s worth.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Ken,

Great question. The expression, as applied to animals has a distinguished history; the Duke of Wellington, himself not without a certain sang froid in a ruckus said this about his horse "Copenhagen" who carried him all day through the hell of Waterloo...


> There may have been many faster horses, no doubt many handsomer, but for bottom and endurance I never saw his fellow.


When not in battle Copenhagen was tetchy and difficult, His cantankerous temperament gave many a groom a bad moment and nearly gave the Duke himself a severe injury. He had dismounted after the final battle of Waterloo and moved to the rear and patted Copenhagen on the rump in thanks for a fine day s work. The horse responded with a savage kick, just missing the General who had already just missed death many times that day.


But Copenhagen was a superb battle horse. Unflinching amidst gunfire he repeatedly exhibited great stamina and fortitude. On one occasion he carried the General Duke into a square of infantrymen under cannon fire, both remaining perfectly composed.


Many a tired and injured soldier at the end of the battle, even now, would relish the chance to kick the Generals head in!! An honourable heritage ... 

Eug


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## short retired (Jul 7, 2008)

I always thought of it on one word...guts!

I always heard it in the context of "that dog just doesnt have the bottom end to do this." Ex of that I really remember was we were doing a really big water mark down a hill, cross a channel, down into a big pond, over the island in the middle of the pond and on to the end of it. We were running thru the dogs on the truck and most were doing pretty well. Usually we use birds on big marks like this to give the dogs a bigger payoff. But we were specifically seeing what some of these young dogs had "in the tank" so we used white bumpers. My Dad happen to be there with his FT washout he bought from Kate and Pete Simonds. He was a "Cappy" son that Kate hated to part with but they and Pat Nolan felt he "lacked the bottom" to run FTs and ultimatly in a National. So my Dad got him ("Risky") at a good price. So as I am bringing him to the like Pat says, be ready to handle on that island. He got on the radio and told the thrower to be ready to throw again. I asked why? He said, "just watch". Sure enough when Risky hit that island he started hunting, looked out across the pond at the thrower and didnt reenter. I handled and it took several cast to get off the island and we had the thrower toss one as he was heading back there...Pat smiled and said, "see, not enought bottom end." And to further prove to me what it meant, he had me bring Risky a few days later. We ran the same mark and he had them shoot a flier instead...like a bat out of hell he tore all the way out to the mark. He looked at me and told me that is the difference between a wonderful hunting dog that loves his birds and that dog that has the "bottom end" to run FTs and be successful.

Guess thats a really long answer to show how I think of it in one word. Guts. Risky wanted to go that far and fight all that for a bird, but for a white bumper??No thanks...not enough bottom.


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Firm, muscular(bounce a quarter off of it)

Wait... this don't seem right, I beeter read post first....

I'll be back

Steve


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

Ken Bora said:


> When You use the word bottom when talking dogs, what are you personally talking about?
> FONT]




My understanding of "bottom" has always been the ability to take a licking and keep on ticking; to take heavy correction and not quit. Just because the dog has "bottom" doesn't mean you need to find it, or use it, but it's there if you need it. 

This thread has certainly expanded my viewpoint of that definition. Lot's of good clarification.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

A dog can have a lot of desire, guts, heart and not have a deep bottom. There is such a thing as a dog having a bottom that you can't get to and that can be a dog that may not advance. I know a pro that had one like that and sent the dog to a pro that was very capable of finding most dogs' bottoms and he sent the dog back and said he didn't find his bottom. The dog was retired from FT but did do HT but mostly on his terms.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> I equate a lot of bottom with being able to take a lot pressure and still perform.


In your definition, it's the ability to take pressure and turn it into performance. I consider that the hard vs soft question. The dogs that the pro in your example bounced were hard dogs. Bottom, to me, is guts, desire and courage.


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## short retired (Jul 7, 2008)

Goldenboy said:


> In your definition, it's the ability to take pressure and turn it into performance. I consider that the hard vs soft question. The dogs that the pro in your example bounced were hard dogs. Bottom, to me, is guts, desire and courage.


I agree with this. To me the amount of pressure a dog can take and their courage can be very different. A dog can be “hard”, “tough”, or “stubborn” as far as pressure thresholds yet be “light on bottom end” and lack guts and courage. Conversely dogs can be “sensitive” or “soft” as far as pressure but have lots of “bottom end”. Just because a dog can take a lot of pressure and bounce back, to me, doesn’t mean they have guts. They are just tough. My pup right now it a “sensitive” dog and I work on the low end of the collar with him, and it does not take much to rattle his cage (which is good) but he has tons of bottom end and guts in the field and water at this point. Just the way I have always viewed “bottom end”. Pressure doesn’t play in to it too much. How they bounce back shows some courage, but that is not the determining factor for me. This is interesting though…to see how many different ways people perceive the same term.

Kevin


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

"*Describe your Bottom to me."*

*None of your bussiness mister! *


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

afdahl said:


> Or, to expand this, not just pressure but discouragement, mistakes, punishing conditions, confusion, fatigue, injury, being asked to to more than they were ever trained for, and never showing ANY SIGN of doubt or worry, nothing but the unflagging desire to rise to the challenge.
> 
> The kind that inspire us. And create a need for us to take responsibility for their safety; John tells a story about Pam Bird going out into the field to get Itchin' To Go so he wouldn't hunt himself to death on a mark.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Well Said Amy!!!
You know it when you see it, and it is spine tingling and can leave you breathless on occasion to witness


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Ken,
> 
> Great question. The expression, as applied to animals has a distinguished history; the Duke of Wellington, himself not without a certain sang froid in a ruckus said this about his horse "Copenhagen" who carried him all day through the hell of Waterloo... When not in battle Copenhagen was tetchy and difficult, His cantankerous temperament gave many a groom a bad moment and nearly gave the Duke himself a severe injury. He had dismounted after the final battle of Waterloo and moved to the rear and patted Copenhagen on the rump in thanks for a fine day s work. The horse responded with a savage kick, just missing the General who had already just missed death many times that day.
> 
> ...


 
This is so very cool, thank you!


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> This is so very cool


He was a pretty cool customer. At Waterloo he rode all over the battlefield moving and deploying troops as the situation demanded, often without any escort. Several of his attending staff officers were killed, and his cavalry commander, Uxbridge, having had a leg blown off alongside him cried "My God Sir, I've lost my leg." 

"My God, Sir" replied the Duke, "So you have".

At one point a group of French Hussars gave chase, and Wellington, alone, had to run for it. A Highland regiment was nearby in square, bristling with bayonets, awaiting the French horsemen; His Lordship shouted "Lie down 92nd" and jumped Copenhagen over the three prone ranks and the ditch that fronted them into the centre of the square.

In the winter nights when dog training is a memory, a good biography of The Iron Duke makes an entertaining read. 

Eug


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In addition to what others have suggested... 

When one says "I hope that dog has a lot of bottom", it could be an indictment of the situation rather than a compliment on the dogs inner strengths. When a dog needs a lot of it to survive a training program, the program in my estimation is flawed

Those who do not know what _bottom_ is in that context, and the dogs need for it with some training regimens, should perhaps be doing something other than training dogs as a hobbie

" ......leave something in it for the dog" regards
john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

John, are you saying that those of us who did not know the duke of Wellington story should give our dogs away?
Don’t be a goof, I ask for a word definition not an excuse to place Chesapeakes.



.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

When we got our 1st trial dog we had no clue what journey would be. What started as the quest for a nice hunting dog and companion. We ended up with a great young dog pro Bruce Curtis. On one of our visits a few months in we were in awe how fast the dog had progressed as well as the others. When we were leaving Bruce had told us the dog has a lot of bottom. Not to act like we did not know what he was talking about we said thanks and said our goodbyes. It was kind of funny walking away from the kennels and seeing the little 45lb golden in a sea of black dogs. On the way home we were talking and Anna asked what the ck is bottom. I told her I had no idea and on the way home we tried to think it thru. After we got home we called and asked Jim Pickering ( the breeder) what Bruce had meant. 

We did not send her on the winter trip south with all the other dogs but kept her home to hunt. opening day went well and on the second day we hunted next to some cockle burrs. She retieved a limit of ducks for our hunting party and when we got back to camp I started pulling off burrs. The dog had a bucket full pulled off by the time I was done. My fingers were bloody from the spikey cursed things and only a few times did the dog flinch. She was beat up pretty bad and we cut her coat back when we gaot home. I feel really bad about what I had put the dog thru just to fetch ducks for us but very proud at the same time. After that day I realized what bottom really meant.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

I have to agree a bit with John. If you are reaching a dogs bottom sometime you have went to far already and training sometimes the hardest part is knowing how far you can go before you have went over that edge.I think that's what makes a good pro someone that can train any dog not just the ones with alot of bottom. I see it as a old school field trial saying that's stuck around from the Boot shoot and electrocute days. When I think of dogs with good bottom I think of dogs that won't quit, Courage, has good desire alot of try not sure if it's pressure related or tough to me that's a training issue. I guess it depends on the dog and the trainer.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

john fallon said:


> In addition to what others have suggested...
> 
> When one says "I hope that dog has a lot of bottom", it could be an indictment of the situation rather than a compliment on the dogs inner strengths. When a dog needs a lot of it to survive a training program, the program in my estimation is flawed
> 
> ...


John I will agree with the last sentence of your first full paragraph, if you are referring to a dog who must have endless bottom to survive a Neandrathal who resorts to pressure over teaching. 

However a dog with a lot of bottom is an asset in even the most humane programs. They accede much more readily to some of the many unnatural things we ask of them to be competitive in doggy games.

But what is really great about a dog with a lot of bottom is revealed in difficult hunting situations. 

That " damn the torpedoes scratch your eyes out never say die I'm gonna get EVERY BIRD out here that you send me for regardless of how much time and blood and guts it takes me attitude"

When you have that it is SPECIAL.
If it doesn't bring a tear to your eye you have either never seen it, or you really don't get it.

I have been fortunate enough to have been blessed with more than one of these special bottomless beasts, and I am tearing up as I type this remembering some of those bottomless beasts I have been blessed with who have since crossed that rainbow bridge.

They gave me far more than I ever returned, in spite of my best efforts.

I think I'm gonna go spend some time with the ones I've been blessed with currently.

I've got to "leave something in it for the dogs", because they leave so much in it for me

Bottomless regards


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

afdahl said:


> Or, to expand this, not just pressure but discouragement, mistakes, punishing conditions, confusion, fatigue, injury, being asked to to more than they were ever trained for, and never showing ANY SIGN of doubt or worry, nothing but the unflagging desire to rise to the challenge.
> 
> The kind that inspire us. And create a need for us to take responsibility for their safety; John tells a story about Pam Bird going out into the field to get Itchin' To Go so he wouldn't hunt himself to death on a mark.
> 
> Amy Dahl


The above and I'll add unflinching, drive and desire to get the bird. He would jump into a burning building if you tossed a duck into it. Watching the dog work you *know *he loves what he is doing.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

I sure am glad you asked, 'cause I was wondering the same thing!

Sir Mixelot regards.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4he79krseU


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Just owning and campaigning a Golden qualifies one for having plenty of "bottom"... (grin)...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

tzappia said:


> Just owning and campaigning a Golden qualifies one for having plenty of "bottom"... (grin)...


tzappia, what a great avatar photo!

John


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> John, are you saying that those of us who did not know the duke of Wellington story should give our dogs away?
> Don’t be a goof, I ask for a word definition not an excuse to place Chesapeakes.
> 
> 
> ...


Look Pal,
My post had nothing to do with the Duke of anything. not even the Duke of Earl

I gave you an additional definition, you just could not seem to grasp it.
Based on the response above, it seems that you are having difficulty comprehending (read don't know enough about the English language to know what was said) ...

Cognative reading 101 regards

john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Oh I don’t know John I’m fairly able to use words. I don’t see you offering a definition. I see you giving a warning. Maybe I’m slow. In my youth I worked for a few dairy farmers. One, the late Wesley Titus would often say of me, in conversation. I was “Strong like Bull, Smart like tractor” I thought that was pretty cool for almost an entire summer until it dawned on me….TRACTORS are not SMART! I took to more book learning and less dairy farming after that. Anyway, in the quote of yours I used in post number 3 of this thread. Please give your personal description of bottom. If it is exactly like Eugene’s or anyone else’s you may quote. Thank you so very much for playing John. I appreciate your time.

.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> tzappia, what a great avatar photo!
> 
> John


Thanks John


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> When You use the word bottom when talking dogs...



FWIW, I don't believe it is a word that I have ever used when talking dogs.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Oh I don’t know John I’m fairly able to use words. I don’t see you offering a definition. I see you giving a warning. Maybe I’m slow. In my youth I worked for a few dairy farmers. One, the late Wesley Titus would often say of me, in conversation. I was “Strong like Bull, Smart like tractor” I thought that was pretty cool for almost an entire summer until it dawned on me….TRACTORS are not SMART! I took to more book learning and less dairy farming after that. Anyway, in the quote of yours I used in post number 3 of this thread. Please give your personal description of bottom. If it is exactly like Eugene’s or anyone else’s you may quote. Thank you so very much for playing John. I appreciate your time.
> 
> .


If you go back to the post from which you plucked my quote,and read it in the context in which it was used, you will see that a warning was exactly what was being given, Hence the response to your query was congruent to my use of the word *at that time*. 

The first sentence of my reply to you indicates that others had posted posted good definitions , and to repete them would be unnecessayily redundant. 
I then went on to say how else the word could be used. 
I hope this helps.

Titus was a wise man regards

john


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

short retired said:


> I agree with this. To me the amount of pressure a dog can take and their courage can be very different. A dog can be “hard”, “tough”, or “stubborn” as far as pressure thresholds yet be “light on bottom end” and lack guts and courage. Conversely dogs can be “sensitive” or “soft” as far as pressure but have lots of “bottom end”. Just because a dog can take a lot of pressure and bounce back, to me, doesn’t mean they have guts. They are just tough. My pup right now it a “sensitive” dog and I work on the low end of the collar with him, and it does not take much to rattle his cage (which is good) but he has tons of bottom end and guts in the field and water at this point. Just the way I have always viewed “bottom end”. Pressure doesn’t play in to it too much. How they bounce back shows some courage, but that is not the determining factor for me. This is interesting though…to see how many different ways people perceive the same term.
> 
> Kevin


I agree.

To me bottom definately refers to how much pressure a dog can handle (handler induced or situation induced) AND how quickly the recover or bounce back from that pressure. 

Carol


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## IA Hunter (May 1, 2006)

I would say it is a dog that loves to train. I personally don't care how hard they train or if they go until they quit because they have to balance alot of desire with a bit of intelligence. I have trained a few dogs that had so much bottom and could train all day, but did not seem to learn a heck of a lot. Almost goofy with bottom would describe them. I love a teachable dog with a reasonable amount of bottom.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

IA Hunter I know what you mean. All go no brains is not good either.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

mjh345 said:


> .....But what is really great about a dog with a lot of bottom is revealed in difficult hunting situations.
> 
> That " damn the torpedoes scratch your eyes out never say die I'm gonna get EVERY BIRD out here that you send me for regardless of how much time and blood and guts it takes me attitude"
> 
> ...


Bump.

And another 5 characters to make it legal.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Titus was a wise man regards
> 
> john


He was, I miss him. His Wife, Mrs Titus,was my first Grade teacher. And when I was 14-17 years old I worked afore and after school at the Titus farm and every summer inbetween. Hay Bales used to be rectangles not round and were stacked in hot, dark, dusty lofts of dairy barns, neatly. Gosh some days I wish I could go back in time.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Bottom- The John Wayne in dogs the true grit. That is what I think it is.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Never heard that term before!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

It is transmission torque terminology where in "bottom end" torque will get you off the line quicker . 

It can also mean the torque to handle various difficult off road driving conditions.The latter being the analogy most closely aligned with our use of it when describing FT dogs.

john


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Wow! No wonder Wellington kicked Napoleon's butt at Waterloo, he had a horse with a transmission.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

A pro told a friend that her dog had a lot of bottom but not much up top. She took it to mean that the will and the drive to retrieve was over powering the dog's ability to be controlled. He just went and it has taken a lot to train him not to hurt himself.


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

I think of bottom on a dog is when you have a dog that when sent has the courage and ability to accomplish the entended goal even through the toughest challenges it faces. They are usually the ones that makes your bottom pucker up as well IMO


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Well that dog has a lot of bottom.
> That dog better have a lot of bottom.
> Your going to need a dog with a lot of bottom to get through that program.
> 
> ...


A dog that has drive and desire, that does not change when given correction. Comes right back and goes as hard as before the correction with good attitude and demeanor.

Cool Hand Luke Regards


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

:???:

```

```
Gotta tell ya gang- this thread is a BIG let down. It started to get legs but croaked.

Where is the Jello babe when ya need her regards

Bubba


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Golddogs said:


> A dog that has drive and desire, that does not change when given correction. Comes right back and goes as hard as before the correction with good attitude and demeanor.
> 
> Cool Hand Luke Regards


That's as good a definition in basic terms and would be close to my definition , no window dressing, just plain facts. Thanks.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Bubba said:


> :???:Gotta tell ya gang- this thread is a BIG let down. It started to get legs but croaked.
> 
> Where is the Jello babe when ya need her regards
> 
> Bubba


  - but now to a serious note & some quotes from folks who know -



Bob Sparks said:


> In your training methods you teach a dog that has the attributes how to fully take advantage of that part of their heritage


Not all dogs have that knack, but it is certainly not shown by running pell mell into a barrier - IMO it is the willingness to enter areas that are hard or disagreeable to work in, do so in a workmanlike manner & complete the task. Tenacity - Substance over Style 

Several years ago I was having a conversation about the fact that several name dogs with very large reputations did not do well in the trials where I was part of the judging team, his comment 



anon said:


> you have a way of setting tests that requires dogs show some tenacity to get a bird


How many of the posters here can recognize that or know the simple methods to incorporate it into a test?


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

OK I’ll play along too funny  I asked my husband to take some photos at a hunt test last Fall - he says this was his best shot  ha ha... 









but in all seriousness - I have never seen a dog with more “bottom” than this fellow here: My boy I lost a few years ago. He may not have held a lot of weight in field accomplishments on paper but you know the saying ... If I knew then what I know now ... he was intense and intelligent and nothing would slow him or stop him.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

To me, the dogs "Bottom" is the bottom line on his quit.

I also don't have a lot of pelts on the wall in regard to accomplishments with dogs.
But I do know guts when I see 'em.

I love a dog that absolutely refuses to quit!!
Nothing will stand in his way.
I like it when that dog leaves and there is mud and gravel and grass flyin' in your face, and he ain't comin' back with out the bird.

That's a lot of heart, a lot of soul and a lot of bottom to me.
The best life has to offer!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

runnindawgz said:


> OK I’ll play along too funny  I asked my husband to take some photos at a hunt test last Fall - he says this was his best shot  ha ha...


I would find it difficult to disagree with your hubby - eye for talent, regards


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

runnindawgz said:


> ...but in all seriousness - I have never seen a dog with more “bottom” than this fellow here: My boy I lost a few years ago. He may not have held a lot of weight in field accomplishments on paper but you know the saying ... If I knew then what I know now ... he was intense and intelligent and nothing would slow him or stop him.


It's pretty special, isn't it?




​(P.S. we need more pitchers)


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

To me "bottom" has nothing to with training, corrections, pressure, Hunt tests, field trials, desire to please trainabilty or any of that.......



A dog with "bottom" stares out into the open ocean at 3' rollers the same way he does at a "happy bumper" thrown into a placid pond


Bottom isn't measured in HT or FT titles...It isn't something you know the dog has until you're in a situation where its needed...Lots of dogs have High drive and desire to retreive...Not many have "good bottom'


Bottom is a term oft used by those of us who gun the Coastal waters of the north east.......Remembered fondly are dogs with lots of "bottom"


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

"Bottom" = _Drive._


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

AmiableLabs said:


> "Bottom" = _Drive._


There's more to it than that. 
A dog can have tons of drive, and yet quickly lose interest when the going gets tough.

Honey Badger has bottom.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> but in all seriousness - I have never seen a dog with more “bottom” than this fellow here: My boy I lost a few years ago. He may not have held a lot of weight in field accomplishments on paper but you know the saying ... If I knew then what I know now ... he was intense and intelligent and nothing would slow him or stop him.


What I see in this photo is a dog that has "HEART"....


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> A dog can have tons of drive, and yet quickly lose interest when the going gets tough.


I would suggest you and I define "drive" differently.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

AmiableLabs said:


> I would suggest you and I define "drive" differently.


 Maybe. But I doubt it.

A dog with drive has lots of desire, tempered with control.

A dog with bottom, usually has lots of drive. But, it doesn't allow the environment, or circumstances to crush it's desire. 
If anything, it makes them try even harder.

They push back.


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

I'm with copterdoc a dog that makes the big swim in the fourth or the tenth with a huge crosswind and just keeps shouldering into the wind for the last bird of a quad with multiple re-entries or goes over, under, or climbs thru nasty briars and log piles to get a bird. Those are the special ones that when the going gets tough they don't do what most of the other dogs do and bow out early. They find a way to get to the birds on a consistent basis maybe not every time but alot more then their class of peers do. Those are the special ones that make the hair standup on the back of your neck and frequently take your breath away and make a tear come to your eye! You know it when you see it in every sport.
CB


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

yes Melanie - PLEASE describe your bottom to us


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Chad Baker said:


> I'm with copterdoc a dog that makes the big swim in the fourth or the tenth with a huge crosswind and just keeps shouldering into the wind for the last bird of a quad with multiple re-entries or goes over, under, or climbs thru nasty briars and log piles to get a bird. Those are the special ones that when the going gets tough they don't do what most of the other dogs do and bow out early. They find a way to get to the birds on a consistent basis maybe not every time but alot more then their class of peers do. Those are the special ones that make the hair standup on the back of your neck and frequently take your breath away and make a tear come to your eye! You know it when you see it in every sport.
> CB


I agree with Chad here and want to add that a dog with a lot of bottom will always rise to the top!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> A dog that has drive and desire, that does not change when given correction. Comes right back and goes as hard as before the correction with good attitude and demeanor.
> 
> Cool Hand Luke Regards


Golddogs & Criquetpass have this one nailed with the definition of bottom. I don't know how long Golddogs has been around, but I know I can safely classify Criquetpass as an old timer with a lot of knowledge who has seen the evolution of this sport, and our dogs over a long period of time.

In order to really understand bottom, desire and drive, you have to look at the evolution of the pedigrees and temperments over time. I learned about this sport from some of the old timers.... people I couldn't stand to train with because of the harsh manner in which they trained a dog. A dog that could "take a lickn' and keep on tickn" had bottom. It did not necessarily coincide with drive or desire. Dogs with bottom didn't necessarily have drive because the training methods sucked it out of them. They could still do the work, and dig out the birds because the desire was inherent in their core/souls. Not all dogs with bottom were team players though. 

Over time, with the change in our Labrador pedigrees, I call it the "Lean Mac Influence" our dogs have gotten to be more sensitive intelligent animals with all the DRIVE & DESIRE in the world. they do the tough job because they WANT to ie: desire, not because some jerk has stuck a boot up their butts 1000 times and they can "take it." Fortunately, our collar and training methods were evolving at the same time. And, with the change in the type of dog ie: sensitive, intelligent with drive and desire, we also got team players. 

Chad Baker's description is one of intelligence, drive and desire, not of bottom IMHO:



Chad Baker said:


> a dog that makes the big swim in the fourth or the tenth with a huge crosswind and just keeps shouldering into the wind for the last bird of a quad with multiple re-entries or goes over, under, or climbs thru nasty briars and log piles to get a bird. Those are the special ones that when the going gets tough they don't do what most of the other dogs do and bow out early. They find a way to get to the birds on a consistent basis maybe not every time but alot more then their class of peers do. Those are the special ones that make the hair standup on the back of your neck and frequently take your breath away and make a tear come to your eye! You know it when you see it in every sport.
> CB


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

The evil trainer, is not the sole source of pressure acting on the dog.

Some dogs are easily pushed all over the place, by pressures beyond the trainer's control. 
Those dogs lack bottom. 

They might have lots of drive, desire, heart, whatever you want to call it. Most of the time, that is enough to overcome a little adversity.
But, when the going gets really tough, they give up.

Honey Badger don't care. 
You can't make Honey Badger quit.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Golddogs & Criquetpass have this one nailed with the definition of bottom. I don't know how long Golddogs has been around, but I know I can safely classify Criquetpass as an old timer with a lot of knowledge who has seen the evolution of this sport, and our dogs over a long period of time.
> 
> In order to really understand bottom, desire and drive, you have to look at the evolution of the pedigrees and temperments over time. I learned about this sport from some of the old timers.... people I couldn't stand to train with because of the harsh manner in which they trained a dog. A dog that could "take a lickn' and keep on tickn" had bottom. It did not necessarily coincide with drive or desire. Dogs with bottom didn't necessarily have drive because the training methods sucked it out of them. They could still do the work, and dig out the birds because the desire was inherent in their core/souls. Not all dogs with bottom were team players though.
> 
> ...


To use my transmission analogy... What you are refering to it top end torque, the ability to shine in the AA arena doing the difficult AA tasks with ease and grace. 
What Chad is talking about is bottom end torque or the intestinal fortitude needed to" keep on keeping on" when because of what appears to be insurmountable obstacles none of its contemporaries are doing so.....

john


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> The evil trainer, is not the sole source of pressure acting on the dog.
> 
> *Some dogs are easily pushed all over the place, by pressures beyond the trainer's control. *
> Those dogs lack bottom.
> ...


The dog you are talking about is soft, lacks desire. Chopper Fixer, you need to get out more, and see some finely bred animals instead of just talking. 

I have no doubt that you will have some snappy retort, because I have noticed that you have last word-itis.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Bottom, is stick power, no matter how rough it gets the dog sticks it out to the end


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Ken, if I described my bottom to you, your head would explode, I mean EXPLODE! Then Tim's would explode and on and on it goes, and no one wins! 
BUT thanks for asking...I guess.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Whoa,slow down Jen...runnindawgz had a nice _description_ of bottom end!

East coast ...+1


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

AmiableLabs said:


> "Bottom" = _Drive._





copterdoc said:


> There's more to it than that.
> A dog can have tons of drive, and yet quickly lose interest when the going gets tough.
> 
> Honey Badger has bottom.



bump for the too much drive thread folks


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> bump for the too much drive thread folks


Great thread, But the obvious question is can one have too Much Bottom?. My jeans says yes


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Only an Arse has the answer to this thread!


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

A pro told a friend that her dog had a lot of bottom but not much up top. I think he was refering to the fact that this dog could mark like crazy and would go through what ever to get to the bird but he sure didn't have a lot between the ears when it came to obedience.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Reading these just brought back a long lost memory. I was 17 and just got my first real hunttin dog a lab named Comet. I train her myself, so she was not the best trained dog, but to me she was the best. I remember sitting along an inlet to the All American canal down near the Arizona border.fishing for 3/4 pound bass. A Dove would fly by and I would shoot it and say fetch. Behind me was the thickest cover, a combo of menzaneta and buck brush you every saw. Comet would be gone for 20 minute some time, Here she comes, she would drop it at my feet, get a drink, I would pat her on head and she would sit and waite for the next one. I don't know if that bottom to other, but to me it is.

Keith

Keith


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bottom, the part of the dog we all seem to enjoy looking at so much


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## labsx3 (Oct 27, 2003)

Gotta tell ya gang- this thread is a BIG let down. It started to get legs but croaked.

Where is the Jello babe when ya need her regards

Bubba

Exactly my thought as I got to this comment!

Oh mah Gawd Becky look at her butt regards.............


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Needed to bump because some folks don't know about the bottom.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Bony, saggy, not much fun to look at, and hurts after a 10 mile bike ride. But, on the bright side, my wife and dog don't care! 
On the right side of the grass, regards....


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

My (otherwise) Sweet Chereaux says I have a frog ass.


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