# How is everyone dealing with the issue?



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

After writing the following in my journal, I decided to post....mostly for some perspective. 

_After several days of mulling over pursuing hunt test titles, the COVID-19 Virus continues to create 
issues. There have been a few difficult adjustments. Pounce will not pursue her Master title this year. She
may run two, well spaced out Qualifiers (or not). Gigi will run a couple of AKC Junior tests in a few weeks
to test the issues. If those go well, then maybe a Derby or two. I might simply scrap even those possibilities. 

In addition, we are considering home schooling our granddaughter. I will be 80 years old, my wife will be 78
and my 100 year old Mother-In-Law is living with us. Bringing home the virus from school (or a test) will 
most likely be catastrophic and quite probable given past experiences with school transferred colds and minor 
flu "bugs". When the vaccine comes out and proves effective, we will consider the alternatives. 

Training alone a lot has been relaxing and safe._


----------



## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Jim we feel your pain and share it as well. If it comes to our house I will probably lose my wife and possibly me. Much as we love our kids, grandkids and great grandkids they are persona non-Grata and fully understand.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I have similar life complications including my wife’s chronic illness which necessitates monthly doctor appointments which is the only place I go these days other than to train my dogs. My concerns in no particular order are:
1) casual or unintended exposure to an asymptomatic carrier of the virus. A recent epidemiological study I read based on an enormous amount of data estimates that 40% of Covid 19 carriers are either asymptomatic or presymptomatic
2) any indoor enclosed area especially those with large numbers of people
3) public transportation of any kind
4) public bathrooms
5) hotels 
My training group is small, older, and cautious like me so while we don’t wear face coverings we do try to practice social distancing when training. Respiratory droplets are generally dispersed and evaporate quickly outdoors. For me attending a field trial under current conditions presents a risk versus reward decision. My current all age dog is 6, he is an AFC in the prime of his career and I regret not being able to compete with him now but there are no milestones to seek other than his FC. He is probably not good enough to be competitive Nationally but he is nevertheless less fun to run. The risks of travel related exposure to Covid 19 far outweigh any small measure of pleasure I would derive from attending a field trial at this time or in the foreseeable future.

We are basically hermits as groceries are either delivered or picked up in the Kroger parking lot. We get occasional takeout where prepared food is brought to the car, prescriptions are picked up at the drive through window, and Amazon is our friend.

Good luck to you, I do not envy your dilemma with your grandchild, that is a difficult one.


----------



## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Ed summed it up very well. I was listening to one of the NIH vaccine gurus least week and he doesn't expect us to reach herd immunity for 2 years. That is assuming a vaccine is ready next year.


----------



## Big Chief (Feb 4, 2018)

Sorry to hear the situation you find yourself. I am guessing you are not alone. I am a school teacher, and I can tell you that it is nearly impossible to get students to wash hands regularly, keep them out of their mouths, and not touch eyes and noses. I'm a bit of a germophobe to begin with, so I notice these things. Prior to Covid breaking out, and our schools shutting down, we were trying our best to get students to follow enhanced cleanliness protocols.Frankly, it seemed a losing battle. All of that to say that your concerns are well founded.

Though it may be difficult, I do not see it as your responsibility to homeschool a grandchild at any age, but certainly not when you are in your 80s. That is a tough thing to say, but it is true. In these strange times, you have to do what is right for you and your wife, as calloused as that may sound.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Actually, our granddaughter was placed with us as a ward of the court. We were willing to take 
on the challenge. She is now ten years old and remains non-verbal autistic. My wife and I are 
retired teachers which does not necessarily suggest that we know exactly how to deal with her 
handicap, but we seem to be making some progress. The fact that she is autistic and in a special 
education class means she is not necessarily missing a normal childhood school experience.

That makes it somewhat easier to dismiss the need for her to be in school while at the same time 
avoid bringing something home besides homework. I want to thank those of you that posted. Doing 
so made me feel that I was not being over the top paranoid. 

In addition, my wife was actually more receptive to the thoughts on this than I expected. 

On the lighter side, I will not be training alone as much. Lylah is really good at putting primers in 
the wingers and I bought a UTV......*with doors*.


----------



## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

I have been very careful this whole time this crap has been going on. I work in an Assisted Living, therefore, I wear masks and face shields at work daily. I use hand sanitizer and wash hands often. 
I also wear masks if I need to run to any store. 

But this past week I had to make the decision to pull out of a Hunt Test on Friday night at 11:00 pm after loading all my stuff up, and had plans to spend the weekend at the hunt test/hotel with just my wife. My youngest daughter was in SD spending time with her Grandma and they went to a softball game last Wednesday afternoon/evening. They just so happened to run into another family member there from my wife's side of the family. So my 9 year old daughter and the sister in law hugged briefly and talked for 2 minutes. My daughter came back home to us on Thursday. On Friday night about 9:30-10:00, we got a text from the sister in law saying she tested positive for Covid. Therefore, my plans to attend the hunt test and spend the weekend with my wife went down the drain. No symptoms from my daughter and I am trying to keep my distance from her just in case. So this just all really sucks!!!!! I did not want to attend the hunt test and risk shedding this virus to anyone there, even though it could be I never had it at all, but you just don't know. Time will tell if I do.


----------



## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

My sympathy to everyone else isolating to some extent. Gooser's note shows what happens when we get tired of it and let down our guard. I had a horrible nightmare the night before some people had to come over the other day. I didn't let my guard down, but just having them on the property worried me.

My situation is only a little different. My wife has advanced Alzheimers and I visited her nursing home every day for nearly 2 years to feed her lunch. I retired to care for her at home a year before that, so I haven't been to many hunt tests for years. They locked down the nursing home in early March and so far have avoided an outbreak. I only saw Carol once since for 5 minutes at the entry door on our 54th anniversary 11 days ago. I was relieved that she didn't seem to know me because I worried that she wondered why I didn't come any more. She seemed to like the roses I brought. My feeding may not have helped, but she's down to 80 pounds now. My daughter can't come visit either of us.

I have some wonderful positives, however. 

Last February, Caoimhe whelped 11 beautiful healthy pups. (One was born small, but she was a fighter.) She and I worked hard to raise them and they seem to have gone to good homes. My old dog recovered from CCL surgery during that period and is doing pretty well. Hard work, but everything went very well and it was rewarding work. I kept two pups, Nannie (the fireball runt) and Maggie, named for characters in Robert Burn's poem Tam o'Shanter. It's going to be an interesting challenge keeping them apart to train.

Another positive for me is that I live on a rural property with ponds and fields where I can train. Caoimhe is back to 100% and still amazing. My 2 yr old Luath is making me try to learn new tricks to overcome his slow maturing. The pups are learning to retrieve and swim. The pups are different, but both beautiful and eager to explore everything. I miss having friends train and stay for a BBQ, but the training is the best thing going. I don't like being in our big empty house.

The little prairie in front of the house has several broods of pheasants for the first time in years. The ponds have an unusually big hatch of Canadas and Wood Ducks. I think there's even a Mallard nest, but they're being secretive. Life is good for the wildlife this year and it's fun to watch them raise their young.

One of the saddest things for me in this whole COVID-19 disaster is that conspiracy theory politics has made so many people ignore basic advice from experts on things as simple as face masks.


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Thanks to all of you for showing the reality of this situation. I have been appalled at the people who refuse to wear masks and think the whole situation is a hoax. We will never see the end of it if people don’t take the social distancing and masks seriously.

Wishing all of you well.

Take care,

Meredith


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

First and foremost I wish everyone the best of health. We all have to choose the level of caution we exercise each day. C-19 is just one thing we need to be cautious of now.

I consider this positive news. 
https://bgr.com/2020/06/26/coronavirus-stats-us-states-cdc-25-million-infected-americans-5847782/

In the US there have been about 127,000 deaths from C-19. 127K deaths / 25 million infected = a mortality rate of .00508%. The flu has a mortality rate of .1%.

About half of those that have died were nursing home residents. Not in a nursing home, mortality rate .00254%? 40 times lower than the flu. 

Obviously the elderly are at higher risk, just as with many other illnesses. From what I have read, age is not a large factor in itself without other serious underlying conditions.

The situation is not a hoax, nor is it as dire as it has been and continues to be "played" by many in the media and politics.
I believe it to be a near certainty that I, and everyone else, will be exposed to C-19. The overwhelming majority of us will experience minor or no symptoms. I do not doubt that it will become seasonal, much like the flu. 
Will there be a vaccine? Probably, between 1 and 50 years from now, I'm not going to sit and wait.

Again best of health to all, exercise the caution you feel appropriate and live your life to the fullest.


----------



## arourke (Oct 12, 2007)

You are off the number of infected in USA by a factor of 10.

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
2,651,497
Deaths:
128,557
That changes things a tad.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

arourke said:


> You are off the number of infected in USA by a factor of 10.
> 
> United States
> Coronavirus Cases:
> ...


Read this, it changes things a tad. 
https://bgr.com/2020/06/26/coronavirus-stats-us-states-cdc-25-million-infected-americans-5847782/

“New estimates from the CDC indicate that the coronavirus has infected 10 times more Americans than confirmed so far via testing. The forecast comes from Director Robert Redfield, and it’s based on data from a COVID-19 antibody screening program.”


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I train five days a week mostly on a 200 acre ranch and I rarely see anyone. If I do they are well beyond social distance. My son comes out on Saturdays and we mask or social distance. I did train with my group last Thursday. There were six handlers. We were outside of course and I tried to maintain a social distance. On 6/7/20 we celebrated my 80 bd with family of about 8 guests. We celebrated in backyard in the shade and breeze. That was 22 days ago.

Our county is relatively low in covid issues. We have had one death in the county. We have gone to dinner at several Ft. Worth restaurants and dined on the patio.
I am being cautious but not staying at home all the time.
P.S. My friends have been going to hunt tests but I think that season is now over until fall.


----------



## arourke (Oct 12, 2007)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Read this
> https://bgr.com/2020/06/26/coronavirus-stats-us-states-cdc-25-million-infected-americans-5847782/
> 
> “New estimates from the CDC indicate that the coronavirus has infected 10 times more Americans than confirmed so far via testing. The forecast comes from Director Robert Redfield, and it’s based on data from a COVID-19 antibody screening program.”



I do not want to prolong this and suggest interested parties read: JAMA Intern Med. Published online May 14, 2020. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2020.2306


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

arourke said:


> drunkenpoacher said:
> 
> 
> > Read this
> ...


Thanks I’ll look it up when I get a chance later.
Is the director of the CDC not a credible source? Should any and all positive news about the virus be ignored?
I don’t fault anyone for taking whatever precautions make them feel comfortable. I do get a little annoyed with people that simply pretend to be afraid of the virus and walk around most of the day with a mask on their chin. Maybe it’s to accentuate the scowl that they give myself and others who are not wearing masks?


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Happy birthday Wayne


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Update: In my original post I had mentioned running my youngest in two Junior tests. Today, the red 
print "remove" in Entry Express was clicked twice. I am looking forward to hunting alone this fall.


----------



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Have to ask myself am I at increased risk. A little over a year out from chemo, feel great, but don't know if there is any lingering effect on my immune system, so when in doubt, I'm just counting it as a strike against me. Just turned 71... so that puts me in a higher risk group. Have episodic asthma that can get crazy at times... so there's that too. When I left TX, I left my 6 year old fire-breather with a TX pro who is able to go North and run her in HT's over the summer. He runs HRC and feels sure she'll have her title and be qualified for the Grand before I see her again in the fall. I miss the heck out of her, but that gives me more time to socialize the new baby dog. Alone. 

This all sucks. We are social creatures. Evolutionarily, we succeeded as a species because of our ability to cooperate and function as a group, a tribe. We are built to be together. UGH!!!


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Thanks I’ll look it up when I get a chance later.
> Is the director of the CDC not a credible source? Should any and all positive news about the virus be ignored?
> I don’t fault anyone for taking whatever precautions make them feel comfortable. I do get a little annoyed with people that simply pretend to be afraid of the virus and walk around most of the day with a mask on their chin. Maybe it’s to accentuate the scowl that they give myself and others who are not wearing masks?



Wearing a mask is to protect those around you, not YOU. If you choose to not wear a mask in close quarters, you are telling others your inconvenience for a short time is more important to you than the health of those in your community.

Meredith


----------



## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

My "during the week training group" consists of 2 around 70 years, 1 at 84 years, 2 at 65+ish, and me + 2 other mid 50's. We train like we always did/do. No precautions, no masks, no social distancing. Just typing, not arguing.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

mwk56 said:


> Wearing a mask is to protect those around you, not YOU. If you choose to not wear a mask in close quarters, you are telling others your inconvenience for a short time is more important to you than the health of those in your community.
> 
> Meredith


I have been avoiding close quarters for about 50 years, recently even more so. 
If I saw a place where everyone, or even most people, were wearing masks properly I would avoid them, so far I have not.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Not wearing a mask. No one in group training is. Ages 50 to near 90. We will all be exposed to this virus sooner or later if we haven't already. Very unlikely a vaccine will be as effective as we all would like it to be. Personally I'm not in a high risk demographic nor is anyone in my immediate family. Covid-19 did, however, likely play a part in my fathers death two weeks ago in that he may not have been able to receive a continuation of the treatment he was undergoing for the last several years. 

Just putting this out there, not passing judgement but enough with the virtue signalling please. 



https://themichiganstar.com/2020/06/29/dr-simone-gold-commentary-we-do-not-consent/


----------



## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

This has made many realize they are not quite in as much control as they thought, despite all their humanistic thinking & defensive action.

That begs the question, if we are not, who is?

Sooner or later, we will all know the answer. You can't be late on this one.


----------



## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

Being a veterinary technician, I am considered an essential worker, so have worked right through. I have continued to train, mostly by myself but occasionally with small group of people. My mom is 88 and living in nursing home. She tested positive fairly quickly but has been asymptomatic so far. Visiting closed early March and I just got my first visit with her last week. Mask wearing is essential in a public setting. I certainly wear one all day at work. Not sure why people are so up in arms about doing something that will save lives. No different than following traffic laws that keep people safe.


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Here here! I too have trouble understanding why so many people feel wearing a mask is some sort of insult on their rights. My right to live and be healthy depends on everyone to participate in this simple process to save lives. It is a pretty small sacrifice for such a huge benefit.

Meredith


----------



## Thomas Running (Sep 19, 2011)

I heard that at the MFTA trial in Foley, MN, halfway through the Open, it was discovered that the person handling birds, had tested positive for Covid. The trial was stopped. People that were entered for the AM the next day were told not to come. If anyone was there or has more information it would be interesting to hear the whole story. My thought is how many were exposed, how many should self quarantine, and how does a club handle the financial repercussions? As of now, I am scheduled to judge 2 trials, to work at a 3rd, and signed up to run at 1, possibly as many as 6. But now am giving serious thought to not attending any.


----------



## Big Chief (Feb 4, 2018)

Mike W. said:


> This has made many realize they are not quite in as much control as they thought, despite all their humanistic thinking & defensive action.
> 
> That begs the question, if we are not, who is?
> 
> Sooner or later, we will all know the answer. You can't be late on this one.


We can't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, but we sure can know who holds tomorrow in His hand!


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

mwk56 said:


> Here here! I too have trouble understanding why so many people feel wearing a mask is some sort of insult on their rights. My right to live and be healthy depends on everyone to participate in this simple process to save lives. It is a pretty small sacrifice for such a huge benefit.
> 
> Meredith


From the link posted by Norwester https://redirect.viglink.com/?forma...themichiganstar.com/2020/06/...o-not-consent/
_The scientific usefulness of a mask has been so aggressively overstated, and the foundational importance of the Constitution has been so aggressively understated, that we have normalized people screaming obscenities at each other while hiking._
_The Covid virus was supposed to be contained in the kind of lab where people wear astronaut suits and go through triple sealed doors. It is a con of massive proportion to assert that now, having escaped those environs, a bandana will magically do the trick._
_After all, size matters._
_The pore size of cloth face coverings range from ~ 20-100 microns. The Covid virus is 200-1000x smaller than that, at 0.1 microns. Putting up a chain link fence will not keep out a mosquito. Even the most esteemed medical journals admit their purpose is to calm anxiety. “Expanded masking protocols’ greatest contribution may be to reduce the transmission of anxiety …”


_


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Thomas Running said:


> I heard that at the MFTA trial in Foley, MN, halfway through the Open, it was discovered that the person handling birds, had tested positive for Covid. The trial was stopped. People that were entered for the AM the next day were told not to come. If anyone was there or has more information it would be interesting to hear the whole story. My thought is how many were exposed, how many should self quarantine, and how does a club handle the financial repercussions? As of now, I am scheduled to judge 2 trials, to work at a 3rd, and signed up to run at 1, possibly as many as 6. But now am giving serious thought to not attending any.


I heard someone felt the need to get tested for Covid 19 then went to a field trial to wait for the results. Seems kind of irresponsible. 

We will all be exposed to C-19 sooner or later if we have not been already. The vast majority of us suffer only mild symptoms or none at all.


----------



## Thomas Running (Sep 19, 2011)

yes, and 130,000 others die.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> We will all be exposed to C-19 sooner or later if we have not been already. The vast majority of us suffer only mild symptoms or none at all.


Little comfort to the 20% who require hospitalization some of whom die the strain on the healthcare system notwithstanding. I just read an article that so many first responders in Houston are under quarantine that the city is short 100 firefighters on today’s shift.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Thomas Running said:


> yes, and 130,000 others die.


I am not discounting those that have died and will die from this virus. 
Just pointing out that the vast majority of use will not, we will die of something else.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

EdA said:


> drunkenpoacher said:
> 
> 
> > We will all be exposed to C-19 sooner or later if we have not been already. The vast majority of us suffer only mild symptoms or none at all.
> ...


Probably not comforting at all but it is a fact.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I am not discounting those that have died and will die from this virus.
> Just pointing out that the vast majority of use will not, we will die of something else.


We might die of something that could have been preventable by something other than an overextended health care system. At least two of a Dallas largest hospitals have ICUs at capacity and they are outsourcing patients to suburban hospitals. No elective surgeries are currently being performed. It would not be a good time to be in a serious accident or have a heart attack.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

EdA said:


> We might die of something that could have been preventable by something other than an overextended health care system. At least two of a Dallas largest hospitals have ICUs at capacity and they are outsourcing patients to suburban hospitals. No elective surgeries are currently being performed.* It would not be a good time to be in a serious accident or have a heart attack*.


Is there a good time to have a serious accident or a heart attack....


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Many hospitals in my area are hurting financially. They are not overwhelmed with Covid patients (or any patients) in fact many have seen just a handful or none. I have no doubt many people that need to see a doctor are putting it off, or have been put off, over fear of the virus. A good friend was just diagnosed with Parkinson's, his appointment had been delayed for months. An earlier diagnosis may or may not have made a difference. For many others it surely has.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Thomas Running said:


> yes, and 130,000 others die.


You do realize we will all die at some point? You may not find it acceptable as is currently trending but it is inevitable. There is risk in everything we do. How many die from motor vehicle accidents? Yet we all still drive. That said...if you are in a vulnerable demographic, by all means, isolate, quarantine, mask up if it makes you feel better.Don't go to work. Don't drive, don't leave your living space and don't ever train your dog or attend Hunt Tests or Trials. Don't ever eat out again. Have your groceries/essentials dropped off in your driveway. Do what you need to do. No one will think less of you. 

Please realize you are responsible for your own safety, health and well being. Not your training partners, not Retriever clubs, not your government, not your neighbor and not me.
If this situation makes you angry, you should be. BUT....not at the vast majority of the populations that keep the wheels turning. Think of the governments involved in this whole fiasco and hold them responsible.


----------



## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

As a physician, when I see someone in public (enclosed areas) not wearing a mask the first thing I think of is that they are either ignorant or selfish. For people under 65 with no health problems the virus is not a big deal. For those over 65 and/or with health problems it is a big deal. For example, the overall mortality will probably end up around 0.2 - 0.3%. However, if you have diabetes the mortality is 10%, which is huge. The whole reason masks and social distancing are recommended is to keep the health care system (think New York) from being overwhelmed and to protect the at risk until we have a vaccine.
There are few people on here that are more conservative than I am. But to say that wearing a mask infringes on personal liberty is ridiculous. It's no different than places requiring shirts and shoes.
I'm fortunate to live in an area with a low volume of COVID-19 with only 10 COVID deaths in our county. A very close family friend died from it last month. She followed all of the rules and rarely went out. No one in her family tested positive, so it was community acquired. Nothing we did impacted the course of her illness. I can assure you that her family didn't feel like since she had to die from something, it might as well be this.

Buck


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

This subject makes me livid.

132,000 Americans have died. Think about that 132,000 people died. 58,220 Americans died in Vietnam. We call that a tragedy. By the time this pandemic is through three or four times as many Americans will have died. And many will call it a sad inconvenience. Where is the outrage?

Governors in California, Florida, and Texas decided to open up just a few weeks ago. Almost immediately, COVID exploded in those states. The Governors in those states are now trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Each day in Florida, there is a new record of COVID cases. Before long, we will have 1,000 deaths a day in America. Where is the outrage?

For those of you who applauded the government's decision to exclude travelers from China, because that was once the epicenter of COVID in the world, what do you think now the the European Union's decision to prohibit travelers from the US for the same reason? Where is your outrage?

For those of you who say, tough luck for those of you who are at risk, I say Karma is a bitch.

Remember those words, when you are:

- In a flood, and people say it was your choice to live in a flood plain
- In an earthquake, and people say you should have chosen to live in a better location
- Born with a birth defect, and people say you are not worthy of our attention

I find that lack of compassion appalling.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Buck Mann wrote, 



> here are few people on here that are more conservative than I am. But to say that wearing a mask infringes on personal liberty is ridiculous. It's no different than places requiring shirts and shoes.


It's important to note here that wearing a shirt and shoes in various places isn't under the guise of preventing the spread of a virus. It isn't the fact that such a demand (mandatory mask wearing) infringes on one's liberty, it's that it is likely ineffective in preventing the spread of the virus. This sort of thinking goes further to undermine the fact that YOU are foremost responsible for your own health and safety. Personally I have no problem with "places" mandating the use of a mask. I simply won't go there. It's my right to make that decision. Likewise, it's your decision as to whether you attend a trial or hunt test or training session. It's your right to attend or not as you see fit. 



> She followed all of the rules and rarely went out. No one in her family tested positive, so it was community acquired. Nothing we did impacted the course of her illness. I can assure you that her family didn't feel like since she had to die from something, it might as well be this.


Followed all the rules and still got sick and died. What does that say about the rules? We will all be exposed to this bug and an attempt to stop the clock and hold others responsible for our safety will not change that one bit. 
My father died a little over two weeks ago. It's likely these rules played a part in his demise. Who's responsible for that??


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> This subject makes me livid.
> 
> 132,000 Americans have died. Think about that 132,000 people died. 58,220 Americans died in Vietnam. We call that a tragedy. By the time this pandemic is through three or four times as many Americans will have died. And many will call it a sad inconvenience. Where is the outrage?
> 
> ...



Tuberculosis...



> As of 2018 one quarter of the world's population is thought to have latent infection with TB.[SUP][6][/SUP] New infections occur in about 1% of the population each year.[SUP][12][/SUP] In 2018, there were more than 10 million cases of active TB which resulted in 1.5 million deaths.[SUP][7][/SUP] This makes it the number one cause of death from an infectious disease.[SUP][13][/SUP]





> About 80% of people in many Asian and African countries test positive while 5–10% of people in the United States population test positive by the tuberculin test.


Source Wikipedia. 

Does the lack of initiative over this make you livid as well? Are you appalled by the lack of compassion?


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Two things this country doesn't need more of, "Outrage" and people professing their extraordinarily high level of compassion.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Is there a good time to have a serious accident or a heart attack....


Very clever....


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Norwester said:


> Tuberculosis...
> 
> Source Wikipedia.
> 
> Does the lack of initiative over this make you livid as well? Are you appalled by the lack of compassion?


Yes and Yes.


----------



## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

The fact that masks help prevent the spread of the virus is well proven by science and only debated on social media. One large study published 3 weeks ago showed they decrease the spread of the virus by at least 60%.The spike in Florida is directly associated with people refusing to wear masks or social distance. You can only use the driving a car being dangerous argument if you refuse to wear a seatbelt. Otherwise you are following a law that impinges on your freedom in an attempt to make it safer. 
Over the last 3-4 months there has been an enormous amount of understanding gained about the virus. I just listened to one of the NIH vaccine gurus last week. We are in for probably 2 years of this before enough people are immune to make a difference. That's assuming a vaccine by next summer.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

According to Wikipedia's source, the World Health Organization, 10 % of the population in the United States will test positive for TB, which as quoted earlier holds the dubious position of being the number one cause of death from infectious disease in the world, yet there have been no lockdowns, no mandatory mask wearing ordinants. Nothing in the news or social media that I'm aware of. 
Does that not raise some serious questions? 
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration shows that there have been 3,613,732 motor vehicle fatalities from 1899 thru 2013. In 2016 over 100 people died each day from motor vehicle collisions. Apparently 2000 children under the age of 16 die every year from collisions.
Seat belts/no seat belts, does it matter? Why are we still driving? 
Acceptable risk? 
Did you read the links I posted earlier in this thread? Thoughts? 
You're a doctor, can you post your source study saying masking up prevents spread of the virus by 60%?

It's my understanding this corona virus is likely to behave like others in that group, like the common cold. We don't have a vaccine for that. Is it realistic to believe there will be a viable vaccine for covid-19 by next year?


----------



## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm going to answer you then I'm done. I can't deal with the ignorance. Just because you test positive to TB doesn't mean that you have it. Plus, it is a mycobacterium that is easily treated and cured. You can't say that about COVID. You keep picking apples and oranges to debate.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This is about the time I revert to a proven, workable process. The first step is to write down all the things that
are bothering me. The second step is to draw a line through those things in the list that I have absolutely no
control over. 

The last step is to focus working on the short list. In the past, this has worked well. Mental health requires a
plan. Being overwhelmed is a choice (or not). I should mention there are many issues mentioned in this thread
that will not be on my list. I can assure most of you that seat belts, tuberculosis and Moose Gooser's choice of 
words are not on the list. 

As for the lack of compassion issue, if I felt really terrible about much of "this and that" would it make a difference? 


I am retired. Each morning I do the list thing creating the focus for that day. The list is usually too long, but doable. 
If I need a reminder of what I have no control over, I give 10 minutes to CNN and like time to FOX. However, I must 
admit that _Naked and Afraid_ is much more inspiring.









The main issue at hand is singular. A few years ago there were several programs describing how small groups 
isolated themselves in bunker communities. To some extent this is somewhat related. How good is your bunker? 

I refuse to be overwhelmed and it is not getting easier.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Buck Mann said:


> I'm going to answer you then I'm done. I can't deal with the ignorance. Just because you test positive to TB doesn't mean that you have it. Plus, it is a mycobacterium that is easily treated and cured. You can't say that about COVID. You keep picking apples and oranges to debate.


Let's meet half way. I'll apologize for my ignorance if you'll apologize for your arrogance. Fair enough?

TB is "easily" cured but still kills over a million people a year. Does it matter that it is a mycobacterium and not a virus? 

Driving motor vehicles kills millions. We consider it an acceptable risk no?

Complications from the common flu kills thousands each year, another acceptable risk?

Does this all not seem very arbitrary ?


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Is there a discernable difference between dying "with" COVID and dying "from" COVID?


----------



## Big Chief (Feb 4, 2018)

I would love to live in your country. Someday, when my wife and I retire, we hope to become snowbirds. I will say this, the gov't in Canada has robbed our personal and privacy rights in the name of Covid, and we have laid down for it. This burns me. 

However, for those of you who think wearing a mask whether in the US, Canada, or anywhere else in the world, is an assault on your inalienable rights... get the hell over yourself. Really. Your rights extend only to the point where they begin to do harm to others. In this case, it is pretty clear that wearing a mask in public, particularly if you are in a hard hit area, is the human thing to do. Respect your elders. They are the ones who fought for, and earned the rights you cling to. You'd be speaking German if not for them.

And for those of you cussing at each other. Give your head a shake. Training dogs, and chatting about it on forums like this are likely one of the few diversions from reality you may have. Society is in upheaval, and some of you are telling each other to go have sex with yourself. Ridiculous.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Norwester said:


> Let's meet half way. I'll apologize for my ignorance if you'll apologize for your arrogance. Fair enough?
> 
> TB is "easily" cured but still kills over a million people a year. Does it matter that it is a mycobacterium and not a virus?
> 
> ...


To you it seems one is like the other, for others they are very dissimilar. Many things matter, as to tuberculosis it is a bacterial infection with a known cure, the primary source of human infection is raw unpasteurized milk, think Louis Pasteur. Most infections today occur in impoverished third world countries. Certainly driving is a source of death and destruction, by either being the perpetrator or victim of irresponsible behavior behind the wheel or sometimes just bad luck. Coronavirus 19 is a newly emerging zoonotic disease that is HIGHLY contagious. The morbidity rate is very high, the mortality fairly low (as compared to other pandemics, (think the Black Death that claimed 1/3 of the earth’s population). Much has been learned about the virus in a very short period of time, the DNA profile has been established and treatment regimens are improving to save lives. That being said there are many ongoing variables including that currently 70% of viral isolates from infected people are due to a viral mutation of the original virus which seems to increase the morbidity because it seems more contagious without increasing mortality. The virus can and does act very differently in populations, e.g. diabetics, Native Americans, and those of African decent seem to have a much higher rate of serious complications including death from thromboembolic disease, extensive lung damage from the so called cytokines storm, and multiple organ failure. Since about 40% of those shedding the virus are either asymptomatic or presymptomatic exposure is often unknown and unexpected. There is no question that we will all die from something, we are born dying in a sense. In the most prosperous nation on planet Earth with among the very best medical care it is unconscionable that we should lead the world in Covid 19 deaths by a very wide margin. I think that your analogy, comparing Covid 19 and tuberculosis and traffic accidents is absurd.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Appreciate the response and the detail put into it. I am aware that the causes of death are different. They all have one thing in common however...YOU DIE. 
Why is one seemingly swept under the rug while another soaks in all the concern? 
In that respect comparing covid-19 to something like Tuberculosis IS absurd. 
It is fortunate for us in this part of the world that the number one infectious disease causing death happens primarily in developing parts of the world, means we really don't care. (collectively) 
Lets be honest here.
I mentioned it previously but complications from common influenza A,B,C, and D cause thousands of deaths and is also highly contagious and we are sold vaccines for influenza.... and yet ??
Again, we don't care. Why is that? 
You mention motor vehicle collision deaths and then say the comparison is absurd as well. Millions and millions of people have died and will continue to.
It's an acceptable risk in your eyes (all our eyes) I'm assuming. 

It seems to me an inordinate amount of freedoms and rights have been squashed and economies may be ruined all in the name of a virus that in the end will kill less that 1 % of all those infected. 

EdA wrote,


> That being said there are many ongoing variables including that currently 70% of viral isolates from infected people are due to a viral mutation of the original virus which seems to increase the morbidity because it seems more contagious without increasing mortality.


So in the face of this information, how long can we go on with these measures that will surely cause more harm than the virus itself? If I'm understanding this, what you've wrote here means that a vaccine will not likely be the cure we want it to be. 
If that is indeed the case who is going to keep the wheels of our society and culture as we know it turning? Damn near all of Canada is on EI.. people don't want to go back to work because of government payouts. Businesses are closing...some forever. The oil industry is on the verge of ruin. People aren't receiving the care they need because of various mandates and shutdowns. And where is all the money the governments are handing out gonna come from ultimately?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

There are two choices, control the pandemic until an effective cure and/or vaccine is developed or don’t control the pandemic, let it run it’s course the human carnage be damned. How much damage do you think the economy would suffer with millions dead and tens of millions sickened, an overwhelmed health care system, and not just small business damage but whole industries destroyed. Think big picture, we no longer live in an industrial economy we live in a service industry one. Most job losses are service industry jobs, not to minimize the horrible economic effects wreaked on those people. I have no claims as an economist but which would you rather have, borrowed money in circulation to boost the economy or no money in circulation?


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Like I was eluding to before, what good will a vaccine be on virus that constantly mutates? Like the common cold. Or Influenza.

Millions dead? Where are you getting your numbers from and what sort of time frame are we talking about here?

One example of big picture thinking perhaps. 


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/The-Death-Of-US-Oil.html?fbclid=IwAR1WhqZVjwYeACcMloxcHXs1KDz27lj14s4oyZ7GBla2peKTPb9ni1aXSog


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

On this wonderful July 4, 2020, the 244th birthday of our Republic appreciate what you have rather what you have not. If we chose to be a Nation and work collectively we shall survive. Members of The Greatest Generation, my parents included, endured the Great Depression when my father was a law school student in Austin Texas and my mother was a recent college graduate (very unusual at the time for a woman) with a child on the way. My father worked three part time jobs. My mother told me that you didn’t leave clean clothes on the clothes line outdoors and always met the milkman at the door on delivery days at 4AM because people were desperate and hungry and would steal anything to survive. They survived similar hardship in WWII when gasoline and food were rationed yet overcame it all to raise and educate three sons with graduate college degrees (my father was the first of his family to attend college). Thanks to their efforts I am fortunate enough to have a comfortable existence in semi retirement. We have so much to be thankful for. 

Irish poet and writer George Bernard Shaw once wrote “I learned long ago, never wrestle with a pig, the pig likes it and you will get dirty”. 

Trying to stay clean regards, good night RTF.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

"The simple, sober truth has no chance whatever of being listened to, and it's only by volume of shouting that the ear of the public is held."

George Gissing (1857-1903 )


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/commercial-lab-surveys.html

According to the CDC the actual number of C-19 infections is from 6 to 24 times higher than the reported cases. More testing to come.


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Norwester said:


> "The simple, sober truth has no chance whatever of being listened to, and it's only by volume of shouting that the ear of the public is held."
> 
> George Gissing (1857-1903 )


There is a difference between dying "with" COVID and dying "from" COVID.

The govt can NOT keep one from becoming I'll and the govt can NOT keep one from dying.

Most people have the where with all to assess their own situation and act accordingly.
If you can't figure this out, and it is apparent who amongst us is not able or refuses to do so, maybe there will be results that are distasteful.

EX: the field trial being canceled due to someone being exposed, testing and not having the common sense to wait
until the results were known.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

road kill said:


> There is a difference between dying "with" COVID and dying "from" COVID.
> 
> The govt can NOT keep one from becoming I'll and the govt can NOT keep one from dying.
> 
> ...


That pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

road kill said:


> Most people have the where with all to assess their own situation and act accordingly.


Many people seem to prefer assessing the situations of others and offering advice on how they should act.


----------



## Wayne Nissen (Dec 31, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> This subject makes me livid.
> 
> 132,000 Americans have died. Think about that 132,000 people died. 58,220 Americans died in Vietnam. We call that a tragedy. By the time this pandemic is through three or four times as many Americans will have died. And many will call it a sad inconvenience. Where is the outrage?
> 
> ...


Ted, we may disagree on insignificant matters such as training or judging dogs, but have hit the nail on the head. Thanks for explaining it to those that are not "getting It". My mother always said "it depends on whose ox is being gored".


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

_"And many will call it a sad inconvenience.__ Where is the outrage?"
_I have never heard that said about this virus and doubt that anyone will say that when it is through.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Many people seem to prefer to assessing the situations of others and offering advice on how they should act.


Boy ain't that the truth.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

road kill said:


> There is a difference between dying "with" COVID and dying "from" COVID.
> 
> The govt can NOT keep one from becoming I'll and the govt can NOT keep one from dying.
> 
> ...


 Agreed. Pretty hard to find an argument with that statement.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/commercial-lab-surveys.html
> 
> According to the CDC the actual number of C-19 infections is from 6 to 24 times higher than the reported cases. More testing to come.


The only test that will provide real answers to the questions is an accurate anti-body test. The rest are fodder for incomplete stats but we all know how much the media loves those. 

If anyone has been following the path Sweden took, (no lockdown) they have been under intense political pressure to follow the protocol of most other countries. Their death toll spiked earlier leading many to state that approach was a terrible failure. 
At one point they thought that by late May they would have achieved only 25% herd immunity. Quite frankly things looked dismal.
However...Sweden's death rate has plummeted since. The lowest it has been since late March. This would appear to indicate that herd immunity has been reached much sooner than forecast and exposure to the virus was more wide spread than officials originally thought and/or indicated. 
If this is indeed what has happened they may have put themselves in a position that is the best long term solution and still spared their economy. 
The trouble is that like virtually every country they failed in the one area that was priority or should have been, regardless of the approach to this crisis. Protecting the vulnerable demographic of their population.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I am curious as to whether trial committees (or whomever is in charge) will require people attending/running to prove they've had a vaccine, when/if one is made available.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Tobias said:


> I am curious as to whether trial committees (or whomever is in charge) will require people attending/running to prove they've had a vaccine, when/if one is made available.


you mean like they do when you try and enroll your kids in elementary school...If this country ever gets to where vaccines are mandatory , then we will have bigger problems than entering a field trial. Still come down to personal choice, I got a flu shot, I got a pneumonia shot..I would NOT get a 1st generation CoVid shot without seeing some actual clinical data on the side effects...and I sure wouldn't be for forcing anyone to get one just so they can attend an event


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Speaking of dying with Covid-19 and dying from Covid-19, give this a watch.

https://www.facebook.com/Representa.../UzpfSTEwODE3MTA5Njk6MTAyMTkwNjUzMjQzNTg5Nzc/

And this one on mask wearing Dr. Michael Osterholm . Seriously, people soak some of this in. 

https://www.facebook.com/Representa.../UzpfSTEwODE3MTA5Njk6MTAyMTkwNjUyMzAzOTY2Mjg/


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

As with any thread topic, the focus may shift. My original premise was "How is everyone dealing with the issue." 
I found several posts answered the question on a personal level. Thank you. 

I could write more.....but realize less is sometimes better.


----------



## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> After writing the following in my journal, I decided to post....mostly for some perspective.
> 
> _After several days of mulling over pursuing hunt test titles, the COVID-19 Virus continues to create
> issues. There have been a few difficult adjustments. Pounce will not pursue her Master title this year. She
> ...


Jim, I will be 77 next month and am Type 1 diabetic, about as high a risk as one can be. A little over a week ago, my HRC club had a meeting at a restaurant for the first time. I had eaten all my meals at home or in my camper when running 3 HTs' this year. When returning from Nashville after a doctor's appointment, I did go through a fast food drive since I was hungry. I was reluctant to do so since I was unable to wash my hands. Maybe next time I will pack a cooler when taking long trips. I am entered in a HT in Mich. in a couple of weeks and will sign up for another in Ala. tomorrow night, if I can get in. I train often. On the weekends I train with two friends, one almost 50 and another that will be 30 also next month. 

I don't use elevators or will I fly. I take all my meals at home and fix them myself, no takeout for me. What I miss the most is that a friend from childhood, returns frequently. We now do not go out to dinner when he is here. I consider the rest as minor inconvenience.

I wore a mask for over 30 years since my profession was one of the highest is not the highest professions at risk to HIV. Infection Control was a high priority. All patients were consdered to be infected and treated as such. I try to do the same today. I wore scrubs at work but never on the street. I even had a shower which I used before leaving work if I though necessary. I only wear a mask when there is a place I choose to go that requires one. That has happened only once. It is sad that masks have bcome a political issue. There are very good reasons to wear one and also very good reasons not to wear one. Too bad they cannot be discussed reasonably. If you choose to wear a mask, I suggest you ask Paul Young to repost his protocol for wearing one. He is meticulous almost to a fault. Let me remind you that "NOT TOUCHING YOUR FACE", is one of the two most important things to do. Touching your mask or placing a mask on your face with contaminated hands, is the same as touching your face.


----------



## jacinda01 (Mar 8, 2020)

martyhanson23 said:


> I have been very careful this whole time this crap has been going on. I work in an Assisted Living, therefore, I wear masks and face shields at work daily. I use hand sanitizer and wash hands often.
> I also wear masks if I need to run to any store.
> 
> But this past week I had to make the decision to pull out of a Hunt Test on Friday night at 11:00 pm after loading all my stuff up, and had plans to spend the weekend at the hunt test/hotel with just my wife. My youngest daughter was in SD spending time with her Grandma and they went to a softball game last Wednesday afternoon/evening. They just so happened to run into another family member there from my wife's side of the family. So my 9 year old daughter and the sister in law hugged briefly and talked for 2 minutes. My daughter came back home to us on Thursday. On Friday night about 9:30-10:00, we got a text from the sister in law saying she tested positive for Covid. Therefore, my plans to attend the hunt test and spend the weekend with my wife went down the drain. No symptoms from my daughter and I am trying to keep my distance from her just in case. So this just all really sucks!!!!! I did not want to attend the hunt test and risk shedding this virus to anyone there, even though it could be I never had it at all, but you just don't know. Time will tell if I do.


very nice..


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

"The beat goes on" seems to be prevalent. This afternoon, my daughter who lives in New Orleans 
called and wanted to setup transportation for her annual fall visit......long train ride and two bus
trips plus waiting in terminals. My wife pays for it every year and was obviously "not thinking"...
my words...not hers. I was a bit hesitant to say anything, but did. 

The trip has been cancelled and I am for the moment not a very nice guy.


----------



## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

Let me start off by saying that I work in the medical field and take care of non-hospitalized positive covid patients, there for awhile it was on a daily basis. None of our medical team has contracted Covid. We have all exposed to symptomatic and asymptomatic patients and probably a lot we don’t know about. We take the proper precautions , N95 for symptomatic patients that we are going to test and surgical masks for any asymptomatic patients. Any new person entering the detention facility gets covid testing. Unfortunately we don’t have those results for four or five days. However, anyone seen by medical for any reason also wears a surgical mask. So far it works for us. Reading yesterday, I saw an article that said we might be wearing mask in public for a couple of years. Even though I am willing to wear a mask for however long , I am not willing to quit living. I think we each have to gauge our own risks and take precautions. I don’t think everyone can, will or should pause their life indefinitely


----------



## orangeversion (Jul 6, 2020)

Sorry to hear that.


----------



## Melanie Foster (Nov 29, 2018)

Norwester said:


> If anyone has been following the path Sweden took, (no lockdown) they have been under intense political pressure to follow the protocol of most other countries. Their death toll spiked earlier leading many to state that approach was a terrible failure.
> At one point they thought that by late May they would have achieved only 25% herd immunity. Quite frankly things looked dismal.
> However...Sweden's death rate has plummeted since. The lowest it has been since late March. This would appear to indicate that herd immunity has been reached much sooner than forecast and exposure to the virus was more wide spread than officials originally thought and/or indicated.


Now what was that you were saying about Sweden?

"*Sweden Has Become the World's Cautionary Tale *
It's decision to carry on in the face of the pandemic has yielded a surge of deaths without sparing its economy from damage"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Well it is the NY Times ...lol... However, as it has been all along it's too early to declare Sweden's approach a disaster just yet. The death toll there is the lowest it's been since early March. The economy's down turn is a reflection of the down turn in neighboring countries and most of Europe. Sweden's economy is largely dependent on exports. 

However,if they have indeed reached herd immunity one would think it would reflect this fall when the next flu season resumes.
For those countries that have not achieved herd immunity the coming flu season may be more disastrous than 2019/2020. 

In other words this likely isn't over...for anyone.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Melanie Foster said:


> Now what was that you were saying about Sweden?
> 
> "*Sweden Has Become the World's Cautionary Tale *
> It's decision to carry on in the face of the pandemic has yielded a surge of deaths without sparing its economy from damage"
> ...



https://fee.org/articles/why-sweden-succeeded-in-flattening-the-curve-and-new-york-failed/


----------



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

I found this excerpt from C.S. Lewis in his 1948 book “Living in the Atomic Age”

“In one way we think a great deal too much of the atomic bomb. “How are we to live in an atomic age?” I am tempted to reply: “Why, as you would have lived in the sixteenth century when the plague visited London almost every year, or as you would have lived in a Viking age when raiders from Scandinavia might land and cut your throat any night; or indeed, as you are already living in an age of cancer, an age of syphilis, an age of paralysis, an age of air raids, an age of railway accidents, an age of motor accidents.”

In other words, do not let us begin by exaggerating the novelty of our situation. Believe me, dear sir or madam, you and all whom you love were already sentenced to death before the atomic bomb was invented: and quite a high percentage of us were going to die in unpleasant ways. We had, indeed, one very great advantage over our ancestors—anesthetics; but we have that still. It is perfectly ridiculous to go about whimpering and drawing long faces because the scientists have added one more chance of painful and premature death to a world which already bristled with such chances and in which death itself was not a chance at all, but a certainty.

This is the first point to be made: and the first action to be taken is to pull ourselves together. If we are all going to be destroyed by an atomic bomb, let that bomb when it comes find us doing sensible and human things—praying, working, teaching, reading, listening to music, bathing the children, playing tennis, chatting to our friends over a pint and a game of darts—not huddled together like frightened sheep and thinking about bombs. They may break our bodies (a microbe can do that) but they need not dominate our minds.”

By all means take precautions against this one very specific disease but this is one of thousands of ways in which people die each day. Be reasonable and don’t forget to live


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I find comparing the atomic bomb and this virus to be a poor analogy. I grew up in Fort Worth Texas home of the main Strategic Air Command B52 base Carswell AFB. We were a top 5 Soviet target during the early years of the Cold War. My parents had canned goods stored in the basement and we had regular bomb drills at elementary school but the potential of nuclear war was something over which we had no control. Corona virus 19 is not hypothetical, it is real and we have the capacity as individuals to control, if not eliminate our exposure. This is a public health issue, it is not and should not be a political issue. I wear a mask to protect you from me, you should reciprocate.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Peter Balzer said:


> I found this excerpt from C.S. Lewis in his 1948 book “Living in the Atomic Age”
> 
> “In one way we think a great deal too much of the atomic bomb. “How are we to live in an atomic age?” I am tempted to reply: “Why, as you would have lived in the sixteenth century when the plague visited London almost every year, or as you would have lived in a Viking age when raiders from Scandinavia might land and cut your throat any night; or indeed, as you are already living in an age of cancer, an age of syphilis, an age of paralysis, an age of air raids, an age of railway accidents, an age of motor accidents.”
> 
> ...


Excellent post. 

I remember the bomb drills in elementary school. At the time I thought is was just stupid, hiding under a desk wasn't going to make a difference. A few years later I realized the purpose was indoctrination not safety or protection.
Now it's active shooter drills.


----------



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

EdA said:


> I find comparing the atomic bomb and this virus to be a poor analogy. I grew up in Fort Worth Texas home of the main Strategic Air Command B52 base Carswell AFB. We were a top 5 Soviet target during the early years of the Cold War. My parents had canned goods stored in the basement and we had regular bomb drills at elementary school but the potential of nuclear war was something over which we had no control. Corona virus 19 is not hypothetical, it is real and we have the capacity as individuals to control, if not eliminate our exposure. This is a public health issue, it is not and should not be a political issue. I wear a mask to protect you from me, you should reciprocate.


I feel like you missed my point. I’m not comparing an atomic bomb scare to Covid. I’m comparing the fear, the reaction, the way it’s currently dominating our lives. 

Wear a seatbelt when you drive, wear sunscreen when you go outside, wear a mask when you’re inside around a bunch of people. 

But don’t quit driving don’t quit going outside and don’t live in fear of a virus that statistically won’t be the cause of death for 99.9% of the world


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> I feel like you missed my point. don’t live in fear of a virus that statistically won’t be the cause of death for 99.9% of the world


I got your point but I do not agree with it. I do not know where you got the 99.9% figure but I can find no study that supports such an optimistic view. While effective treatment has lowered the mortality rate it is much greater than 0.1%. Add to that those patients who suffer thromboembolic complications and potential lifetime disability. Additionally some asymptomatic patients have been identified with significant lung pathology which may well impact their quality of life permanently. To be dismissive of this disease, which we may not see the end of for two years, seems foolhardy.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

https://fee.org/articles/modelers-w...emiologist-and-the-world-is-paying-the-price/

“There are already more than 50 studies that have presented results on how many people in different countries and locations have developed antibodies to the virus,” Ioannidis, a Greek-American physician, told _Greek Reporter_. “Of course none of these studies are perfect, but cumulatively they provide useful composite evidence. A very crude estimate might suggest that about 150-300 million or more people have already been infected around the world, far more than the 10 million documented cases.”
Ioannidis said medical data suggest the fatality risk is far lower than earlier estimates had led policymakers to believe and “is almost 0%” for individuals under 45 years old. The median fatality rate is roughly 0.25 percent, however, because the risk “escalates substantially” for individuals over 85 and can be as high as 25 percent for debilitated people in nursing homes.
“The death rate in a given country depends a lot on the age-structure, who are the people infected, and how they are managed,” Ioannidis said. “For people younger than 45, the infection fatality rate is almost 0%. For 45 to 70, it is probably about 0.05-0.3%. For those above 70, it escalates substantially…”


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

EdA said:


> I got your point but I do not agree with it. I do not know where you got the 99.9% figure but I can find no study that supports such an optimistic view. While effective treatment has lowered the mortality rate it is much greater than 0.1%. Add to that those patients who suffer thromboembolic complications and potential lifetime disability. Additionally some asymptomatic patients have been identified with significant lung pathology which may well impact their quality of life permanently. To be dismissive of this disease, which we may not see the end of for two years, seems foolhardy.


When you state "much greater than 0.1 %", can you please site your references and sources for this information?


----------



## taeicher (Jun 25, 2017)

Ed you're misinterpreting the 99.9% comment. The poster is not referring to the death rate of individuals who have contracted the disease, rather what percentage of the world's population will die of covid. The current world's population is ~ 7.8 billion. .001 = 7.8 million. Current estimates of total deaths world wide are 610,000+ or 0.000078%


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

This is an interesting read. 

https://www.outkick.com/florida-texas-case-surges-produces-small-fraction-of-new-york-deaths/

The governors of NY and MN in my opinion should be held responsible. Criminally negligent at least.


----------



## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Norwester said:


> This is an interesting read.
> 
> https://www.outkick.com/florida-texas-case-surges-produces-small-fraction-of-new-york-deaths/
> 
> The governors of NY and MN in my opinion should be held responsible. Criminally negligent at least.


I don't see MN even mentioned in your article.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Norwester said:


> When you state "much greater than 0.1 %", can you please site your references and sources for this information?


https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


----------



## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

EdA said:


> I got your point but I do not agree with it. I do not know where you got the 99.9% figure but I can find no study that supports such an optimistic view. While effective treatment has lowered the mortality rate it is much greater than 0.1%. Add to that those patients who suffer thromboembolic complications and potential lifetime disability. Additionally some asymptomatic patients have been identified with significant lung pathology which may well impact their quality of life permanently. To be dismissive of this disease, which we may not see the end of for two years, seems foolhardy.


I agree...the toughest guy I know was one of the first to get COVID-19 in interior Alaska.
This guy solo packs out 600+ pounds of moose meat every fall, he is a marathoner, his heart rate after a workout is 38 beats per minute.
Yet his description of fighting for every breath convinced me to minimize my risk in getting COVID-19.

It took him months to fully recover and he thought he was going to die...

https://www.adn.com/alaska-life/202...laskan-hopes-others-can-learn-from-his-story/


https://www.alaskapublic.org/2020/06/05/listen-covid-almost-killed-this-marathon-runner/


----------



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

The trouble with everyone's links and sources is we're all working with bad information. Even the most thorough of research is working with data that is becoming outdated by the time its published. You can't definitely state the mortality rate because the numbers are skewed. The actual amount of known cases is misleading because its only because of confirmed cases. There are false positives (bad data) and countless cases unaccounted for because they were never tested/tested positive. 

Yes I made the 99.9% ratio up, but as others have pointed out, its not completely baseless. 

Ed doesn't like my point and he's entitled to his opinion. There are far more important things in this world to give your brain power and thought process to than COVID. 

I will continue to take reasonable/normal precautions and live my life.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Peter Balzer said:


> I will continue to take reasonable/normal precautions and live my life.


A wise and responsible policy which but it will cause a great deal of anger and frustration among some people.
Does anyone believe that the only people that have COVID-19 are the ones that have tested positive for it? You have to if you accept the high mortality rates that are being cited.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Ed doesn't like my point and he's entitled to his opinion. will continue to take reasonable/normal precautions and live my life.


It was so much that I disagreed with your point as much as I objected to the infectious disease to nuclear weapon analogy. Maybe that’s splitting hairs or maybe I was just grumpy. 

The sooner the population as a whole accepts the disease as real and everyone does all they can to prevent the spread of it the sooner the nightmare will be over and we can return to life as we knew it. At least there is something positive on the home front as I have expanded my culinary skills significantly in four months.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

mngundog said:


> I don't see MN even mentioned in your article.


You are correct it's not. However MN governor Tim Walz did follow a similar directive.

https://www.americanexperiment.org/...of-minnesotas-care-homes-has-been-a-disaster/

https://nypost.com/2020/05/16/blame-governors-for-coronavirus-deaths-in-nursing-homes-goodwin/


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

EdA wrote,


> Add to that those patients who suffer thromboembolic complications and potential lifetime disability. Additionally some asymptomatic patients have been identified with significant lung pathology which may well impact their quality of life permanently


Here's an interesting side note. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17497-6


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Got the news this morning , my dad was admitted to the hospital with the virus. Hes in his mid 80's and was active (working) and healthy on his annual physical 2 weeks ago. Now we wait!


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Norwester said:


> If anyone has been following the path Sweden took, (no lockdown) they have been under intense political pressure to follow the protocol of most other countries. Their death toll spiked earlier leading many to state that approach was a terrible failure.
> At one point they thought that by late May they would have achieved only 25% herd immunity. Quite frankly things looked dismal.
> However...Sweden's death rate has plummeted since. The lowest it has been since late March. This would appear to indicate that herd immunity has been reached much sooner than forecast and exposure to the virus was more wide spread than officials originally thought and/or indicated.
> If this is indeed what has happened they may have put themselves in a position that is the best long term solution and still spared their economy.
> The trouble is that like virtually every country they failed in the one area that was priority or should have been, regardless of the approach to this crisis. Protecting the vulnerable demographic of their population.


This presents a quite different opinion of the Sweden approach.

https://apple.news/A3GqvfvApRwyKmQR4O2Advw


----------



## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> Got the news this morning , my dad was admitted to the hospital with the virus. Hes in his mid 80's and was active (working) and healthy on his annual physical 2 weeks ago. Now we wait!


Thoughts and Prayers with your Dad.


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Thank you Denver .


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

EdA said:


> This presents a quite different opinion of the Sweden approach.
> 
> https://apple.news/A3GqvfvApRwyKmQR4O2Advw



That's interesting but in a way that raises some questions and perhaps some eyebrows too. Sweden's daily death rate is the lowest it's been since March 11 and it's new cases is the lowest it's been since March 10th. 
Seeing as how there was no lockdown how would one account for these numbers other than coming to the 
"possible" conclusion that some measure of herd immunity has indeed been reached, contrary to what USA Today is writing?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Norwester said:


> That's interesting but in a way that raises some questions and perhaps some eyebrows too. Sweden's daily death rate is the lowest it's been since March 11 and it's new cases is the lowest it's been since March 10th.
> Seeing as how there was no lockdown how would one account for these numbers other than coming to the
> "possible" conclusion that some measure of herd immunity has indeed been reached, contrary to what USA Today is writing?


I read somewhere that elements of the immune response are not measured by antibodies alone because they occur associated with certain cells, T cells I assume. It is also possible that neutralizing antibodies exist at levels lower than the current test detects but are protective. Add to that Sweden lacks some of the population demographics who seem most susceptible, Native American, African, and diabetes may have a lower incidence there as well. Apparently people with type O blood appear less susceptible so who knows how many of those things exist in a population of 8.5 million versus a population of 350 million.

This is the list of those consulted for the article, I assume it is their conclusion.
_
Sigurd Bergmann, Ph.D., Emeritus Professor, Norwegian University of Science and Technology_
_Dr. Leif Bjermer. Ph.D., Professor, Respiratory Medicine and Allergology, Lund University_
_Barbara Caracciolo, Ph.D., in Epidemiology_
_Marcus Carlsson, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Mathematics, Lund University_
_Dr. Lena Einhorn, Ph.D., in Virology_
_Dr. Stefan Einhorn, Ph.D., Professor of Molecular Oncology, Karolinska Institutet_
_Andrew Ewing, Ph.D., Professor of Chemistry and Molecular Biology, University of Gothenburg_
_Dr. Manuel Felices, Ph.D., Head of Endocrine Surgery, NÄL Hospital_
_Dr. Jonas Frisén, Ph.D., Professor of Stem Cell Research, Karolinska Institutet_
_Marie Gorwa, Ph.D., Professor of Microbiology, Lund University_
_Dr. Åke Gustafsson, Ph.D., Clinical Microbiology, Uppsala University Hospital_
_Dr. Olle Isacsson, Ph.D., Professor of Endocrinology, University of Gothenburg_
_Dr. Claudia Hanson, Ph.D., Associate professor, Global public health, Karolinska Institutet_
_Dr. Stefan Hanson, Ph.D., International Health, Karolinska Institutet._
_Dr. Jan Lötvall, Ph.D., Professor of Clinical Allergy, University of Gothenburg_
_Dr. Bo Lundbäck, Ph.D., Professor of Epidemiology of Respiratory Diseases, University of Gothenburg_
_Åke Lundkvist, Ph.D., Professor of Virology, Uppsala University_


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

I read the list but none of those listed were quoted directly. You put an awful lot of faith in the media acting in an objective responsible manner, especially it seems left biased sources like USA today. In fact, the article is poorly written, subjective and speculative. 

That said, Sweden may have indeed got it wrong. However, it's a little early to tell just yet.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> Got the news this morning , my dad was admitted to the hospital with the virus. Hes in his mid 80's and was active (working) and healthy on his annual physical 2 weeks ago. Now we wait!


Please let us know how your Dad is. Best wishes to you and family.


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

The doctor said that he is a pretty string old man and should get thru this time will tell. My mother was admitted yesterday afternoon also, no virus just has an infection and may get released this afternoon or tomorrow. Darn rules cant even go see my parents !


----------



## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

Best and healing wishes to your folks, Jesus!


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Interesting take.

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/photos/a.151342491542569/3445963458747106/?type=3&theater


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Best to your parents Jesus. No one wants to be forced to be separated from their loved ones while they are hospitalized.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Norwester said:


> Interesting take.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/photos/a.151342491542569/3445963458747106/?type=3&theater



quite well written and worth reading. I watched some but not all of the video with Dr Osterholm - plan to finish it later on. Sounds like he actually knows what he's talking about.

I also agree with Mike - that once people accept the fact that they are 'probably' going to get covid - it makes dealing with the illness a little easier. Flattening the curve does not mean Covid is gone. It is here to stay.


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Thank you Tobias and Dr


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Tobias said:


> quite well written and worth reading. I watched some but not all of the video with Dr Osterholm - plan to finish it later on. Sounds like he actually knows what he's talking about.
> 
> I also agree with Mike - that once people accept the fact that they are 'probably' going to get covid - it makes dealing with the illness a little easier. Flattening the curve does not mean Covid is gone. It is here to stay.


Agreed. Judging from a lot of the statements here, however, people just don't get it. Unless you plan on living in a bubble....FOREVER...you will be exposed to this virus sooner or later. 
This makes people angry and they go into denial which makes them much more likely to be influenced or swayed by organizations, governments, and individuals misrepresenting the facts and themselves.


----------



## GBUSMCR (Oct 5, 2004)

True, COVID is here to stay. That being said, flattening the curve is important and I don't think its denial. Getting COVID now in July 2020 is better than if you had gotten it in Jan 2020. Every day and every patient treated leads to improved understanding of the disease. Probably going get COVID but being the last person in the US to get it would be my preference. ;-)


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

GBUSMCR wrote,


> Every day and every patient treated leads to improved understanding of the disease. Probably going get COVID but being the last person in the US to get it would be my preference


Just like cancer right? ;-) Seriously though, hard to argue with your last statement.


----------



## GBUSMCR (Oct 5, 2004)

Norwester said:


> GBUSMCR wrote,
> 
> Just like cancer right? ;-) Seriously though, hard to argue with your last statement.


Yep, 40 years ago had a handful of drugs for treating. Not so today. No cure but a lot more treatment options. ;-)


----------



## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

Although Minnesota was mentioned as a problem state in an earlier post, the state has actually fared pretty well. There have been 1571 deaths from Covid-19 in the state so far this year, but 1204 of those were people living in nursing homes or assisted living facilities. A person's median life expectancy after entering a nursing home in Minnesota was 4 months before there was Covid-19, so many of the Covid fatalities would have happened for some other reason since these victims are extremely vulnerable. Also, for more than a month now, the number of deaths each day has been less than 10, except for one day when it was 13. In normal, pre-Covid-19 times, 122 people die each day in Minnesota from all causes, but about 10% from influenza and other respiratory diseases.


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I thought this was a retriever training site , but looks more like sheep herding 
Pete


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

minnducker said:


> Although Minnesota was mentioned as a problem state in an earlier post, the state has actually fared pretty well. There have been 1571 deaths from Covid-19 in the state so far this year, but 1204 of those were people living in nursing homes or assisted living facilities. A person's median life expectancy after entering a nursing home in Minnesota was 4 months before there was Covid-19, so many of the Covid fatalities would have happened for some other reason since these victims are extremely vulnerable. Also, for more than a month now, the number of deaths each day has been less than 10, except for one day when it was 13. In normal, pre-Covid-19 times, 122 people die each day in Minnesota from all causes, but about 10% from influenza and other respiratory diseases.


Minnesota's GOVERNOR was mentioned as a problem in an earlier post. 

Perhaps you can clarify what you wrote. Are you saying that because people in nursing homes are going to die anyway it was ok for the governor to mandate covid-19 infected individuals into said nursing homes and assisted living facilities?? Seriously?


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

An update on my dad and mom .Dad acts like he has a cold but the virus is hitting my mom hard . She cant move at all now. Seems to hit the invalid worse..


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

"I thought this was a retriever training site , but looks more like sheep herding" Pete

Pete, the original thrust of this topic was to to discuss the impact of the virus on retriever training and testing. There 
is no question that one must make adjustments (the topic) in the decisions necessary to cope. I don't think retriever
training members are even remotely similar to sheep. My training and testing situation has been altered considerably 
and listening to others describe their situation(s) has proven useful. 

I have trained alone for many years and have not had to make many adjustments in that area.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> An update on my dad and mom .Dad acts like he has a cold but the virus is hitting my mom hard . She cant move at all now. Seems to hit the invalid worse..


damn - So sorry to hear your mom is struggling. That’s got to be very hard for you and especially your dad. Best to you and your family.


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

GBUSMCR said:


> True, COVID is here to stay. That being said, flattening the curve is important and I don't think its denial. Getting COVID now in July 2020 is better than if you had gotten it in Jan 2020. Every day and every patient treated leads to improved understanding of the disease. Probably going get COVID but being the last person in the US to get it would be my preference. ;-)


George, this response is not directed at you, personally. 

We are doing an outstanding job of *fattening *the curve. The 1,000+ that are dying in July are no different than those that died in February, March, April, May or June. Dead is dead.

The Spanish Flu epidemic killed 600,000+ Americans in 36 months, with the medical resources available* 100 years ago. *Covid-19 has killed nearly 150,000 Americans over 6 months with 21st century medicine. Think about it......


----------



## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

paul young said:


> George, this response is not directed at you, personally.
> 
> We are doing an outstanding job of *fattening *the curve. The 1,000+ that are dying in July are no different than those that died in February, March, April, May or June. Dead is dead.
> 
> The Spanish Flu epidemic killed 600,000+ Americans in 36 months, with the medical resources available* 100 years ago. *Covid-19 has killed nearly 150,000 Americans over 6 months with 21st century medicine. Think about it......


Also one needs to factor in that the US population is now over 3X what it was during the Spanish Flu.


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

T. Mac said:


> Also one needs to factor in that the US population is now over 3X what it was during the Spanish Flu.


Which serves to make a highly infectious disease even easier to spread. Thanks for illustrating my point further. -Paul


----------



## GBUSMCR (Oct 5, 2004)

paul young said:


> George, this response is not directed at you, personally.
> 
> We are doing an outstanding job of *fattening *the curve. The 1,000+ that are dying in July are no different than those that died in February, March, April, May or June. Dead is dead.
> 
> The Spanish Flu epidemic killed 600,000+ Americans in 36 months, with the medical resources available* 100 years ago. *Covid-19 has killed nearly 150,000 Americans over 6 months with 21st century medicine. Think about it......


Hi Paul, 
I am all about taking this serious. I was simply saying anything we can do to flatten the curve (not fatten it) is a good thing. You are spot on about the flu. When friends mentioned early on that 31K people died of the flu compared to COVID19 at the time, etc etc. They missed the point that a Flu vaccine exists today and some fairly effective antivirals are available to treat flu patients. 

Jesus, praying your mom and dad have a speedy recovery.


----------



## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

Norwester, in answer to your question; the governor of Minnesota did not place covid infected people in nursing homes, but that did happen in New York. As far as I know, and from what has been reported, the high death rate in Minnesota nursing homes was simply due to the high risk individuals residing in those nursing homes. 
If you remember, one of the first serious outbreaks in the US was in a Seattle nursing home where 22 people died in one facility. There were at least 2 facilities in Minnesota where more than 20 people died, and many other facilities with a smaller number of deaths.


----------



## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

So you don't think Governor Walz is responsible?

https://www.facebook.com/RepresentativeJeremyMunson/posts/923386678084185

https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-s-long-term-care-homes-are-dangerous/570783782/


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

This has hit my family hard ,we just hope for the best. Im running around getting all the necessary paperwork together for my parents cause my younger brothers are having a real hard time with this. We will get thru this and hope all of you and yours are safe and well.


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Just an update on my parents. Mom is in a rehab unit and my dad is having a hard time breathing now. I miss being able to see them when I want to. Still hoping all of you and yours are still safe in these trying times.


----------



## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

Your parents are in our thoughts and prayers.


----------



## oliverwilson1987 (Aug 11, 2020)

Many people have been influenced by covid 19, especially when it comes to people who have been working or their occupation has been associated with action. It is a pity that this virus has badly affected you


----------



## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Just an update on my parents. Dad is home and off of oxygen now and finally passed 2 virus test. He now goes to rehab to build his strength and lung capacity back up. 
Mom has a harder row to hoe. She started out in the hospital, then rehab hospital, ICU and finally got moved1 level down. The virus has attacked her lungs severely and worried the entire family, but shes now on the good side of healing. I wish I could go see her but since I went to see my dad when he came home I'm not allowed in the hospital, 1 more week to go! Thanks to everyone who inquired about how they were doing.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Good to hear.


----------

