# FF Tables



## blklabman (Feb 2, 2010)

So I am new to training and have seen a lot of people taking about using a table for FF. I am following a training program and will eventually need to get to FF later down the road. So I thought I would get an idea of what different peoples FF tables look like. So lets see em or at least read about them!


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

I built one about 10 years ago. It is 16 feet long and 4 feet wide. I covered it in outdoor carpet, and it as an 8ft or so post at each end with a cable running in between. It weighs approximately 1,000,000,000,000 pounds because I used 2x4's, 2x6's, 4x4's and 1/2 inch plywood....never claimed to be a genius.


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Stephen,

I am in the process of building a new one. Do you like it 4 feet wide? I find I like it about two foot wide to give less room for the dog to "wiggle". Also I am putting a bottom shelf on mine to hold things off of the floor. I am thinking 12 foot long with a collapsable ramp on one end to help the dog get up and down. Thanks for any input. I tought hold and forced initially on a 3 by 3 table and then used a pro;s that I know that is 16 ffot by 2 foot. I only have room for 12 foot in my shop. I also wanted tomake sure it would fit in my shop out of the weather.

Thanks Curtiss


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

It is actually 2 feet wide. I ripped a sheet of plywood for the top. The shelf is a great idea. So is the ramp. I have neither.


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## Jimbone (Feb 12, 2010)

What is the purpose of such long tables (12', 16')? I'm not second guessing, it's just that the tables I've been working on at my retriever workshop are 2' x 4' and I'm wondering what the advantage is. These tables are close enough to the the ground for the dog to jump up on.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I have used both long tables and now use a short 2X4 "table" which is a couple of saw horses with a 3/4 inch plywood that is 2X4 foot. All I use it for is to get the dog up off the ground so I don;t have to kill my back and IMHO placing the dog on a small table makes them pay more attention and have less room to mess around.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

I built mine 16 feet long probably because someone told me it needed to be that long. I did my last dog without the table, because it was still at my old house. Now that I am old and lazy I prefer to use the table.


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## DUCK DGS (Nov 29, 2007)

Ours table is almost 20 years old and is 16' x 2' with a cable above it from one end to the other. We went by some old Dobb's plans, I think. It is overkill for the way we use it. A shorter table would be just as useful for force fetching and saving your back - though it does hold LOTS of food for tailgate parties after a club training day! 

Sue


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

I think my table is around 12 foot, about 4 feet wide - actually is on top of the dog kennels;-). I also have a cable the length of the force-fetch area which I can lengthen or shorten, depending on the dog. 
I really like a long table because of all the room you have to work with. With one, you can walk dogs up and down the table working on hold, do several _fetches_ on one trip down the table, or in advanced, work on extended "fetching" drills in the form of casting(which is really nice to get them going as good as possible before going to the ground). 

Just my 2c,

Abby


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> you can walk dogs up and down the table working on hold, do several _fetches_ on one trip down the table, or in advanced, work on extended "fetching" drills in the form of casting(which is really nice to get them going as good as possible before going to the ground).
> 
> Just my 2c,
> 
> Abby


Thats exactly why you want to have a long table.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Thats exactly why you want to have a long table.


Yeah from the guy with all the experiance......

Sounds like the old Water Dog method. By the time a dog goes to walking fetch or hold he should already have it down well enough that it can be done just as easily on the ground


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

The length of the table helps with the dog learning to "move" while holding plus learning to move a "distance" to get to the object.

I was cleaning my force fetch shed yesterday and took this pic.

WRL


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> Yeah from the guy with all the experiance......
> 
> Sounds like the old Water Dog method. By the time a dog goes to walking fetch or hold he should already have it down well enough that it can be done just as easily on the ground


I didnt say thats how I do it. I said thats what a long table is for. 

I train my dog in the real world not on a table in a garage.. 

I find I dont have to train my dog twice that way..


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

I used my small table for hold and initial fetch for lack of movement. I then move to my long table to fetch at a distance. I also use my long table for overs and backs early on. As far as the real world, I do not know what that means. I have seen Chris force a dog in the back of a UTV. Also Danny forces on the ground from the beginning. There are many ways to do it. Most people use a table to reduce back stress. Also a table gives you the opportunity to see the dog eye to eye and have greater control. I like the use of a ramp on a table. I also like the ability to use a table on either side.

Thanks 
Curtiss


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

By the way, I do not train my dog twice. I just use a progression chart by Mike Lardy. I think it is a proven method.

Thanks 
Curtiss


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> I didnt say thats how I do it. I said thats what a long table is for.
> 
> I train my dog in the real world not on a table in a garage..
> 
> I find I dont have to train my dog twice that way..


Why do you have to train him twice if you use a table in a garage?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> By the way, I do not train my dog twice. I just use a progression chart by Mike Lardy. I think it is a proven method.
> 
> Thanks
> Curtiss


You have never seen a dog have a problem during transition from the table to the ground?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> You have never seen a dog have a problem during transition from the table to the ground?


 
Not when done right;-)

hold means hold regards


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> Not when done right;-)
> 
> hold means hold regards


How about a dog that fetches in the living room but not outside?


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> You have never seen a dog have a problem during transition from the table to the ground?


No. Is that why you stopped using the table....because you couldn't get it right the first time?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Stephen Whitley said:


> No. Is that why you stopped using the table....because you couldn't get it right the first time?


No,

I dont need one because I dont strap my dogs head to a post. I dont teach casting on a table and dont use toe hitches or ear pinches. 

So my bending over is very limited.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> No,
> 
> I dont need one because I dont strap my dogs head to a post. I dont teach casting on a table and dont use toe hitches or ear pinches.
> 
> So my bending over is very limited.


How do you teach hold and then FF?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Stephen Whitley said:


> How do you teach hold and then FF?


With an e-collar.


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

What E-Collar? What levels? At what point do you collar condition and what levels? What do you use to collar condition ex. sit stay here?


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> With an e-collar.


How though. Do you use your hand at first and then a dummy or something for the dog to hold? Do you use the e-collar right from the start?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> What E-Collar? What levels? At what point do you collar condition and what levels? What do you use to collar condition ex. sit stay here?


I don't use the collar to enforce any commands when I first introduce it to the dog. It's like introducing a clicker a leash or anything else. At first the dog might not like it very much. 

So the first thing we need to do is associate the e-collar stim "tap" with something positive. Just like you would with a clicker.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> ........
> 
> So my bending over is very limited.


According to you, you've had your "unfair share of it"......

Me thinks after a little bit, you've either learned to like it or you liked it to begin with.

WRL


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

The "Teaching Attention" colum that Fred Hassen wrote for WorkingDogs Magazine is very similar to the method I use today when introducing a pup to an e-collar.

The level that I use is different for every dog but it's very low compared to correction based e-collar training.

http://workingdogs.com/doc0028.htm


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Packleader,

Answer My Questions


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> Packleader,
> 
> Answer My Questions


Click on the link I posted and read it..


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks Link King.

I ask very specific to your training. What collar do you use? I would answer this by saying "I use a TT G3 Pro 500 EXP. What levels to you start at? I would answer this as I start low and build up based the dog's tendencies for that day. What is training program for forcing? I would say I use Mike Lardy's chart and base my training on a collection of Dobbs, Lardy, Farmer, Aycock and some from Akin also. The dogs that I have forced have never had an issue. I guess I could post what any other trainer in the world talks about and say that is what I do but when someone ask a question on this board I do my best to answer what I do. If I ask a question of the board, I like the same respect paid. I asked one not to long ago and got sound training advice.

Thanks Curtiss


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I use the SD 1850 at the moment why does that matter? 

I said Low Levels, I dont see why that matters either.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

I read it. So the initial use of the collar is to get the dog to look at you. Then you teach it to heel once it has learned to look at you when he is nicked. What happens when you run your dog, or the ones you have trained, on a 300 yard blind and he pops?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Stephen Whitley said:


> What happens when you run your dog, or the ones you have trained, on a 300 yard blind and he pops?


Nick and back but that is a long way away from what I was just explaining. 

Once the dog will sit and look at you in a positive way when you "tap" you are ready for distractions, not 300 yard blinds.


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

I have seen you refer to your collar as a vibrating collar just wanted to know what kind. Are all of the beeps linked too command? The low level stim is something I think alot of us say but do not define. I am guessing for you it is a 1 working up. So how exactly is it that you force?

Thanks Curtiss


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Stephen Whitley said:


> I read it. So the initial use of the collar is to get the dog to look at you. Then you teach it to heel once it has learned to look at you when he is nicked. What happens when you run your dog, or the ones you have trained, on a 300 yard blind and he pops?


Its unlikely he has ever trained a dog to do this.

He trains obedience dogs. 

WRL


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Jamie, 

We do not train dogs to lookup at us in the heel position. Heel is a position in which the dog has his head and eyes straight forward.

Thanks Curtiss


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> I have seen you refer to your collar as a vibrating collar just wanted to know what kind. Are all of the beeps linked too command? The low level stim is something I think alot of us say but do not define. I am guessing for you it is a 1 working up. So how exactly is it that you force?
> 
> Thanks Curtiss


What you use as a cue for the food "tap" or "vibe" doesn't matter at this stage. They will both have the same effect. 

If the dog is training for field work then you should obviously use the low level stim. You are conditioning for field work later. As the level of distraction rises during training the collar level goes up. 

If you control the distraction and collar levels properly you will have a happy snappy dog with a great attitude during all future collar training.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> Nick and back but that is a long way away from what I was just explaining.
> 
> Once the dog will sit and look at you in a positive way when you "tap" you are ready for distractions, not 300 yard blinds.



But when YOU nick in YOUR training program the dog is going to look at you isn't he? I don't think that would be a good thing when trying to correct for a pop.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

CLindsay said:


> Jamie,
> 
> We do not train dogs to lookup at us in the heel position. Heel is a position in which the dog has his head and eyes straight forward.
> 
> Thanks Curtiss


You can hold the food in your hand and make the dog look anywhere you want. Ever notice when people recall the dog into the heel position they will have their arm out with their hand dangling down as a cue for the dog to come and heel right here..

Read the article again "by what ever body laguage is needed"


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Stephen Whitley said:


> But when YOU nick in YOUR training program the dog is going to look at you isn't he? I don't think that would be a good thing when trying to correct for a pop.


What about when I use it for a whistle sit will it help with that?


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> What about when I use it for a whistle sit will it help with that?


Yeah it should, but that's about it from what I've read.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Because all you read was the introduction. We still use the collar for FTP later in training.


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> Because all you read was the introduction. We still use the collar for FTP later in training.


Do you have any references from people whose dog you have field trained? Not trying to give you a hard time. That's a legitimate question for any pro.


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

CLindsay said:


> We do not train dogs to lookup at us in the heel position. Heel is a position in which the dog has his head and eyes straight forward.



If that is how you train it. The dogs can learn where to look based on what we are doing though, without separate commands. I do a lot of different sports/activites with my dogs...too many to have completely different commands for each one!

Bandit has a nice attention heel in the obedience ring, but he sure doesn't stare at me out in the field. Both are "HEEL", but he knows the difference (well, until someone in another ring throws a dumbbell...we are working on that LOL)


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

First of all Stephen you asked me my method and so I told you.

I dont offer a start to finish training program for field dogs yet. I would rather prove the method first. 

Like Fred I plan to run many HT and do just that. Even then I probably wont. However I have worked with many field dogs at different stages of their training however I cannot take any of the glory for them because everything I do is mostly e-collar work not field work. 

I was already warned about advertising on the forum so If you want more information or references then email me. 

Better yet come see me I might just have a gun dog to demo for ya


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

PM on the way!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> How about a dog that fetches in the living room but not outside?


 
Don't know all mine know better....must be something worng with your method


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm glad I never told youall how I trained old Sport. You'd still be giving me hell and Sport wouldn't have his Championship. He hated a box on his neck, but he loved me. And I loved him, he was one hell of a dog and had a terrific sense of humor. Meadowwoods Dusty Road was his daddy.

Have fun bitchin at each other, all you "Xperts", Bill
________
E-cigarette store


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Forgot to meantion-- He was Chocolate , of course! Bill
________
AnieHott live


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Bill Watson said:


> I'm glad I never told youall how I trained old Sport. You'd still be giving me hell and Sport wouldn't have his Championship. He hated a box on his neck, but he loved me. And I loved him, he was one hell of a dog and had a terrific sense of humor. Meadowwoods Dusty Road was his daddy.
> 
> Have fun bitchin at each other, all you "Xperts", Bill


...Chuckle...


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## CLindsay (Jan 5, 2010)

Mr. Bill,

Are you and Mrs. Cleo coming to Central next weekend?

Thanks 
Curtiss

PS You have probably forgotten more than most of us know or will ever know.


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