# Advice on preparing for Qual



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I am considering entering a qual this fall. I'm asking for suggestions in training. I have started by extending my hunt test setups in distance. Monday I got some of my white coat stuff out and did a partial FT setup. I know that i have to get my retired gun setup out and working. See video below of what i did on Monday. The fields were soaked out where the gun stations were located. On no. 1 I put out two wingers so i didn't rut up the fields so much. I was able to get to station 2 pretty good by staying on high ground.
https://youtu.be/oO_7AsDPAss


Wind was left to right on mark 1 and a tail wind on mark 2. Tail wind on blind 1 and wind right to left on blind 2.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Wayne, most of the failures I have seen when I have run Q's and judged them stemmed from:

- A lack of willingness on the dog's part to look out past a shorter gun station and watch the longer bird all the way to the ground, resulting in a big hunt or failure on the longer bird.

- The handler trying to win the trial on the blinds. Yes, you must address all the hazards, but perfection is not necessary, and can be a momentum killer that makes finishing the blind with style and precision very difficult.

- Handlers working much too fast at the line, not making sure the dog has a good look at all the gun stations, and sending the dog before they re properly set and ready to be sent.

Beyond that, don't dwell on only tight setups, and mix it up on a weekly basis, throwing a mix of singles, doubles and triples. You are probably doing this already.

I hope you have some fun and success!-Paul


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Longer marks as you've stated. Long retired and short retired(I've had both in recent Qs). Long technical water blinds(thin entries/exits, multiple re-entries, down the shore re-entries, etc). Long land blinds.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

paul young said:


> Wayne, most of the failures I have seen when I have run Q's and judged them stemmed from:
> 
> - A lack of willingness on the dog's part to look out past a shorter gun station and watch the longer bird all the way to the ground, resulting in a big hunt or failure on the longer bird.
> 
> ...


All of that plus fliers or shackled birds at all distances and in different orders. Train on as many different properties as possible.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Paul and Ed right on especially Paul's first point "A lack of willingness on the dog's part to look out past a shorter gun station and watch the longer bird all the way to the ground, resulting in a big hunt or failure on the longer bird." I've seen well placed doubles wipe out cross-overs from hunt tests. I think training with real people in white or W drill helps


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks everyone. Our tech water is pretty limited now that Ackermans is not available. But we still have some at Fishers. On my training grounds we have about 20 ponds. Not very many are big.

Paul yesterday I did a hunt test setup. One mark at 150 yards left to right. Another mark at 200 yards right to left (holding blinds were almost in line but not quite). Is this what you were talking about or should the first gun be closer?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

It has been some time since I ran a Q. A dog that was willing to look past the short flyer station and find the "guy in the dirty t-shirt" deep always made it to the blinds.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

The vertical separation is fine. I think for training purposes you might want more horizontal separation so that it's easier for you to read when/if the dog's focus shifts off of the long bird to the shorter one. Every once in a while you can set up a tight look as a *test* of the how your training is progressing.

As Ed said, flyers short of the long bird are a serious distraction. One way to encourage the dog to look long is to use shackled birds on the long mark a good percentage of the time.-Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

fishduck said:


> It has been some time since I ran a Q. A dog that was willing to look past the short flyer station and find the "guy in the dirty t-shirt" deep always made it to the blinds.


Amen to that.

I think it is toughest if the order is R, M retired, F or the same thing going left to right. The dog's tendency is to swing right past the middle bird to the flyer. Even if the gun stations are well separated and visibility is good, that's a tough setup.-Paul


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

If possible approach the line walking toward the longest or most difficult gun to pick out. Take your time, let the dog pick out the guns and settle in on the line. 
There will probably be a flier in the first series land marks and likely in a position to distract from the other guns.
Expect water marks to be cheaty and entry may be long.
There may or may not be retired guns but be prepared for it. More than one mark will surely be positioned so the dog loses sight of it in route while other guns are remain visible.

The land blind may be run right after the marks and the line very tight to a gun. 
Identify corridor to the blinds and any "goal posts" or other factors. There will probably be factors that tend to pull the dog out of your line of sight.
Watch the test dog and if possible some dogs that run before you. Be prepared to handle, whistle in mouth and lungs full. If you hesitate it's probably too late.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

You're getting some good advice; follow it.
I will reiterate what others have said by emphasizing looking out past the short guns particular put the flyer and finding that long gun and watching the bird to the ground.

On blinds I would agree with Paul's advice but I would also say that's a double-edged sword for hunt testers moving up
I've seen hunt testers try to win the trial in the blind be too precise but I've also seen them let em roll offline through an area where a hazard is and in the judges eyes not really challenge their blind. Then they wonder why they got dropped when they only use two whistles and somebody else got carried using 6 or 7 whistles
If the true line to the blind goes past an old fall or the flyer crates used in the first series you better be pretty close to that line at that point.
This is a generalization but I would see the hazard that Paul put in on being too precise and losing momentum is more applicable to water blinds, whereas the hazard I pointed out as more applicable on land blind.

I would also re emphasize SLOW DOWN!!
Not only as has been pointed out to ID gunners and on the send, but I also often see em move too quickly to the next gun station as the birds are being shot. That only reinforces the dogs tendency to head swing Make the dog see the bird all the way to the ground and then some. 
If you're not running as one of the first dogs study the judge that's calling for birds and get his Cadence down. If the judge has a slower Cadence use that extra time to make that dog really focus on the bird thrown before moving to next bird.
Lastly relax as best you can&#55357;&#56835;and enjoy


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## Andy Brittingham (Mar 3, 2013)

I'd also expect to have much longer water entries.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

In training I like to do plenty of long retired guns as singles with multiple short guns / stick men in the field. Sometimes run a blind before the long retired.
Of course maintain a balance, don't overdo any one concept. Ensure plenty of success to maintain and build confidence.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The last couple I put into= Big ole Flyer station out in the middle with 2 long retired guns, several cover changes. Also they seem to run a blind in conjunction with the initial marking series usually right off the flyer station to some where a dog doesn't really want to go. Latest one was just short of a piece of technical water, and you guessed it many young dogs just had to hit that water, or had to go re-visit the flyer station. Taking them well away from the planted bird. Flyer tends to be first or second mark, challenging to get a dog to focus out past it for the others. Judges seem to like to hide the stations behind hay bales, usually there are several out there so the dog has to really focus on which one the mark came out of so that they don't run inbtw the wrong one. Also as a handler make sure you know which slot is the right one. Otherwise you can send you dog to the wrong hay bale.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Puts the mark to land right in front of water? I've seen that in HT with a bad judge but a qual?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> Puts the mark to land right in front of water? I've seen that in HT with a bad judge but a qual?


It was the land blind, which was ran right after the initial land marks; to the back side of the flyer station; just short of the water. A bunch of different challenges to be sure. My horrible drawing, this was a rolling hills pasture, in a sort of valley. One of the big problems dogs were having is they'd be heading out to the 2 long marks, go down in a valley losing site of the mark then get confused, they had to be able to push a hill to be able to see where the #1 landed, then push a second smaller valley-hill to get to where #2 actually landed. It ate a bunch of dogs up, those that did get out there could be confused by all the different hay bails. Pretty much a just survive series


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

All I know is if the mark or blind is placed in front of water, dogs were being good as in when you see water in front of you , get in. I totally don't understand with the drawing.


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

A lot of my hunt test buddies have learned recently that FT flyer stations are way more tempting than HT flyer stations.

Shackled duck on the long gun is interesting. I will remember that.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> It was the land blind, which was ran right after the initial land marks; to the back side of the flyer station; just short of the water.


Do you know if dogs were dropped for over running and hitting the hitting the water or just for going back to the flier?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Zack, Why is that? My one exposure to FT flyer station was in a derby but I didn't see anything unusual or unique about the flyer station.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Train like your going to run an all age stake....then you'll be ready for qual's...Randy


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> Train like your going to run an all age stake....then you'll be ready for qual's...Randy


The problem for Wayne is if he knew how to train for all age stakes he wouldn’t need to ask the question. Good advice but not helpful for him.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Another common problem I see for MHs making the jump to Q's is not being able to cast "back" on land blinds when the blind is 200+ yards. After about 150 they tend to zig-zag when cast and go into hunt mode not being comfortable going further.

Tim


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Zack, Why is that? My one exposure to FT flyer station was in a derby but I didn't see anything unusual or unique about the flyer station.


2 or 3 guys in white coats with the stack of orange crates full of birds out in the wide open, they shoot the bird and then sit down still staying out in the wide open: as opposed to a hunt test where they're hidden behind a blind until it's time to shoot step out wearing camo and shoot and then duck back behind a blind or into some cover


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

Also the difference in length and lack of separation. The dog is forced to run tight past a flyer station to a memory bird. It's not super hard to teach them the concept, but if they haven't seen it...makes for a quick donation.

Also slow down. HT handlers are so used to bang,bang,bang set ups. We don't slow down and work the dog into a bird. The judges won't ding you for that. They will however ding you for the dog returning to the flyer station.

Watch the flyer. I have a bad habit of watching the dog. At least glimpse at the bird so you know where it is.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Some things in training that are great preparation for an event;

Train with a large group on occasion, different dogs, people and locations help create a trial like atmosphere.

Shoot some fliers and make the flier station as attractive as possible. 

Use a holding blind.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

On your water blinds, if all you have is farm ponds, stretch the length of your entries out to 150 yds or more. All the Qs I've run have had long entries on the water blinds. You better be able to keep a dog off the shore, fighting the wind at 250+ yds. Usually with a re-entry or 2.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I train at least once a week with a group and have done so for about 3-4 years plus pre-national extended training groups and other excursions with groups. We always use 1-3 holding blinds and we have bird boys. But it has been master akc training. One of the things I need to do is get the flyer station gussied up in white.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Bama, Thxs I will do that. I am making a list for Saturday. Hopefully with two days of strong wind the fields will dry out. Some of the ponds have some features to them and some are just stock tanks.
I need to post a google earth screen shot of the properties showing the ponds.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Wayne, if the land blind is run as a separate series, there is a high likelihood that the bird crates will be left in the field and used as suction, so when you do have fliers use them as part of blind(s) after the marks. Be careful about corrections in close proximity to them, like you would with corrections close to gun stations. - Paul


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Paul, Thx. I run blinds by crates all the time but with only dead birds in crate. So, something else to add to the list.

Google earth is not functioning (not just me) as it doesn't have a tool bar for annotating, measuring anymore. A search indicates they are in the process of updating, etc.


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## Cayuga Dew (Nov 30, 2014)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Paul, Thx. I run blinds by crates all the time but with only dead birds in crate. So, something else to add to the list.
> 
> Google earth is not functioning (not just me) as it doesn't have a tool bar for annotating, measuring anymore. A search indicates they are in the process of updating, etc.


Right click measure distance?


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

In my humble opinion the qual is the toughest stake to train for, 

The qual can be all over the place in skill factors , it all depends on the judges at the time, you can see "just a double" which is a killer , you can see a triple with two of the guns retiring , or a stand out triple, you may have a dink of blind or you could have blind a country mile long with multiple hazards. 

I've seen good MH dogs smash quals , the key , they're good marking dogs which are comfortable running past the magic 150 yard mark. 

Bottom line , is the marking , often times what would be considered a "good hunt" in a hunt test is a big green ribbon in a FT , and two hunts can turn you into a spectator. 

The best teacher is experience , you have to run several to really begin to know exactly what to train for , run them have fun with them.

Good luck and go get em!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Do you know if dogs were dropped for over running and hitting the hitting the water or just for going back to the flier?


I'd say all dogs were dropped for failure of control (either going back to flyer or going into the water), once they got into the water or back toward the flyer; handlers were almost never able them off of either. Many handlers just picked dogs up after it became ugly.

Another tip, Timing is different in FT it's weird for hunt test dogs, No calls and they shoot before the bird is launched, many HT dogs automatically will swing to another station after the shot; as they are used the cadence of a bird then the shot. It just might result in the dog missing the bird, if you're trying to refocus them to see the throw. You have to teach them to stay focus on the station and not move off of it. Also seems FT take longer time btw shot and bird appearing, sometimes really long. I remember watching a guy shoot, put down the gun, then pick up the bird, then throw. My dog had already flash marked every station before the bird was in the air; dog going bouncy bouncy on the line is not fun.

FT I tend to watch the dog more and not the marks. I watch the marks of other handlers, I see enough to know if mine are really different, if they are (quick look at judges "really!!?"). But If the dog doesn't know where the marks are; you're done. The dog's gonna see the flyer, sometimes you wish they wouldn't. It's more important to me to know the dog has seen all marks, and prep if I have to pickup in a particular order or end up doing extreme Hail-Mary lining-sending. If you handle on a mark in a qual, oftentimes you won't see the next series and pretty much you can only hope for a green, if that. To stay in with a handle on a mark, the Judges would have to be very forgiving and wanting to keeping people playing; this has not been my experience ever. Quick handle over an extreme hunt, has never worked out in callbacks, from my limited observations.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> If you handle on a mark in a qual, oftentimes you won't see the next series


It will almost certainly get you cut unless all the dogs handle, which can happen.

The blind does sound unusual but maybe the best the judges could do with the ground available. There are usually one or more points where a dog that is allowed to get off line probably won't recover.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Train for all age. As a judge I don't automatically cut for a handle unless it's a large field of dogs.In field trials work is relative to the field. Get all the birds. Challenge the blinds. Green ribbons have meaning for many people just learning.

Jeff


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

A team said:


> In my humble opinion the qual is the toughest stake to train for,


I have been involved with field trials for almost 50 years and in that time I have never been aware of anyone “training for the Qualifying”. Historically it is a transitional stake between the Derby and All Age Stakes. The AKC chose to elevate it to something more with no good reason other than revenue production. The Qualifying Stake is and always has been the easiest stake to be competitive in because there are no restrictions and accomplished dogs become ineligible quickly.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Mr Wayne you ve had some good suggestions advanced. Everyone is different and every dog is different. Look for what works for you

Our Master dogs always ran Quals. Most reliable master dogs can do Q work. You can get it done. If I can offer anything it’s to raise your standards at the line and in the field 

From my experience and based on our mutts. At the master level we ran in the mid nineties for a success percentage. These guys could mark and they all won 1 or 2 quals and had success with minor all age finishes and a number of jams. We trained all these guys ourselves except for the early dog work. 

Trials are different as your aware - your looking for the best dog today and they may be different than the best dog on Thursday or Monday. 
Consistent effort , consistent proper corrections will lead to good dog decisions 
And just as important is don’t wear rose colored glasses so be honest with yourself
As you depart from the line above all be honest with yourself on the work, then hope the judges saw the same thing 
Good luck on your endeavor


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

EdA said:


> A team said:
> 
> 
> > In my humble opinion the qual is the toughest stake to train for,
> ...


I found this post very interesting. 

So, do you hold much regard for dogs that win a Q or earn a QAA title? 

I assume the answer is “no” and I would find that to be a totally reasonable response for someone who has had had your success and anyone who is competitive in AA stakes. A Qual win doesn’t really matter. It’s just a stepping stone to you. 

Where as a hunt tester might view the QAA title as a goal. 

Just interesting perspectives depending on the person and their dog. And I can understand them both.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

birddogn_tc said:


> So, do you hold much regard for dogs that win a Q or earn a QAA title?


My opinion of the Qualifying is consistent and well chronicled. Winning a Qualifying is certainly a credible accomplishment but does not confer any particular significance for a competitive dog’s future. It is a great place for young dogs to gain experience running multiple marks and blinds in competition. I have utilized it that way for a couple of my dogs, one who did not run the Derby ran nine Qualifyings, finishing or placing in eight until he eliminated himself with his second win. He was a steady consistent performer who earned an AFC but he was rarely a threat in the Open. I do not consider the Qualifying Stake as a destination but I understand and support those who choose to focus on it. The reality is if the dog is good enough it does not last long. I would personally feel unfulfilled with a dog whose career was spent in the Qualifying. My point is train for the future not the present. If that suggests some form of elitism then so be it.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

EdA said:


> My point is train for the future not the present. If that suggests some form of elitism then so be it.


Doesn’t come across as elitism to me at all. It just “is what it is” in my opinion and makes perfect sense.


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## Jared McComis (Aug 12, 2013)

birddogn_tc said:


> I found this post very interesting.
> 
> So, do you hold much regard for dogs that win a Q or earn a QAA title?
> 
> ...


I recently found this to be true as well. Had the opportunity to train with one of the top AA guys and the Amateur's that accompanied him. Sitting back listening, knowing my place, I listened to them talk about only participating in a few derby's and limited Quals. Several had never entered either. They were also completely unaware of Hunt Test and what went with it. Supportive of it but just didn't know what it took to obtain certain titles, what the series would look like, ect… Myself trying to work from the bottom up, was entered in a Master Test that weekend. I fielded many questions in regards to it. It was a very eye opening experience in many ways. 

I prefer to compete in the lower level stakes of trials for several reasons, primarily I view the barrier to entry in the AA game extremely difficult(time, knowledge, opportunity, and $$$$.) However I have made the jump in hopes to compete at the highest level. We will see where the ride takes me.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

As Lisa Van Loo would say “it depends.” The Qual is an interesting stake. You have the young hot shots fresh from the Derby. There are slower maturing young dogs getting their sea legs. And there are the older warriors whose owners want to keep engaged in the sport. As long as the owners and dogs are having fun, it’s all good


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I am sitting here listening to thunder, rain and seeing lightning flashes. Wishing I could be out training. I made a list of the constructive comments I received on a 3X5 card. It will go with me when it dries out enough to get in the fields. Thanks again for the comments and suggestions.

With nothing better to do I thought I would make a list of the places that Rowdy and I have trained (not tested):
Backyard (drills)
Park inside development (drills)
Young dog grounds inside development (five acres)
My home grounds Matt ranch 1 and Matt ranch 2 (200 acres each)
CCR grounds
Mike Fishers (good tech water)
Akermans (better tech water, no longer available)
Large pond inside development (long water blinds) 
Big Woods on Trinity X2 with combo CCR and Best Retrievers
Jerry Patopeas (pre National training group with 4 pros)
Gary Zellners (pre National training group with 4 pros)
Cowtown HRC club training days in various locations
Another great set of grounds in OR whose name I cannot remember (pre National with 4 pros)
Various others for short periods


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

As a hunt "tester" this is a great post to read and has given me plenty to think about as my dog and I venture into the Qual this summer. We wanted to run derbies but it was in the best interest of my dog to take some time with things. From the Qual we hope to move on up. I've always trained with people who made me look at the end stake whether it be master or the open and are honest with us. I've got a wonderful young dog and I know he'll give 100% - I just need to keep learning how to handle him through the tight corners!

My advice for you is what my husband always tells me - "To finish first you must first finish." Fight to the end and let the judges do the rest !!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wayne

Just got in from training. Have been wanting to respond to you, but wasn't sure what I should say. 

But, here goes:

1) What you can expect in a Qualifying is very dependent upon:
a) The numbers of dogs entered
b) The temperament and experience of the judges

I once entered a Qual where Ed was judging. I have known Ed for years, trained with him a fair amount, and know that he: a) knows where to put birds; and b) knows how to calibrate the tests to the quality of the dogs. As things turned out, the Q exploded in size and got to be 50+ dogs. I called Ed, who was then scheduled to judge the Am, too and we remarked at how it would be a blood bath - because it had to be in order to complete the Q in a day. When the club got new judges in to judge the minors, I scratched my dogs. Because I knew that even with new judges, the number of dogs would require the judges to set up harder tests than you would expect to see. 

Point 1A is: the number of dogs in a stake drives the degree of difficulty

Point 1B is: how good - or bad - any stake will be is driven in large part by the quality of the judges. It is unfortunate but the minor stakes often get the judges with the least experience, when in many ways they should get the best we have.

2) If you love to train - as I know you do. And If you love to challenge yourself - as I also know you do. Then your training of necessity must get harder with time. The marks get longer. The factors in mark increase. The marks get tighter. You work on running blinds tight by guns and through old falls. May be you interrupt your marks with blinds. 

So, the Qualifying - or any stake - becomes a benchmark for assessing your performance.

- Last week, I went to my first USPSA (United States Practical Shooting Association) Competition. I have been shooting handguns for forever, but never in a competition. So, it was pretty damn exciting.
I think it took me 40 seconds to run, engage 11 targets and shoot 22 rounds. The top competitor did it in 10 seconds. He had been competing for years and was one of the top ranked shooters in the country. I didn't view him as my competition. My focus was on my skills. The competition told me what I needed to improve upon. I think that the Q will be the same for you. It will tell you what you and your dog need to do better. 

3) If I were to judge a Q with 20 dogs or so, I would probably have

Series 1 - Double, retire one - or triple, no retired. Not tight. Maybe long bird of 250-300 yards.
Series 2 - Land blind, 250 yards. Run immediately after marks, but not really in conjunction with them. For example, marks shot at 9, 12, 2 o'clock. Blind run to 5 o'clock
Series 3- Water blind, 250 yards. No big run up to water. No cheating shoreline. Get on big point. Get off. Swim
Series 4 - Water triple. Retire one. Retire none. Depends on quality of field. Not tight. No breaking bird. Maybe long bird of 250-300 yards

Hope this helped.

Ted


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thx Ted. That helps a lot. I don't know where I'm going to find 250 yds of swimming water. Maybe one place has water for 150 yards.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Thx Ted. That helps a lot. I don't know where I'm going to find 250 yds of swimming water. Maybe one place has water for 150 yards.


150yd water and set up a variety of blinds with looong angled entries, down shore, on/off point with decoys, gunners, etc for distractions. You will be well prepared for the blinds in a Q. Just keep tight to the line.
Judges like obstacles near the water entry point. Train to push through weeds, brush, jump over a log or canoe at or near the waters edge. 
Decide before you run what the acceptable corridor to the blind is and find a landmark on each side. It will take some pressure off when you run having the parameters set.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

After a brief scan found this 250yd water blind right in Ft Worth.
.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Breck, I couldn't read the name of the park. Pls give coordinates or name of park. Ft. Worth is a big place. Thx
PS I don't live in Ft. Worth but nw of there. I live at 158 Coronado Bend which is in Parker County. FT. Worth is in Tarrant County. I don't understand the mailing address issue but has something to do with the location of post offices. When we first moved here the address was Azle, TX.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Breck, I couldn't read the name of the park. Pls give coordinates or name of park. Ft. Worth is a big place. Thx
> PS I don't live in Ft. Worth but nw of there. I live at 158 Coronado Bend which is in Parker County. FT. Worth is in Tarrant County. I don't understand the mailing address issue but has something to do with the location of post offices. When we first moved here the address was Azle, TX.


.
Park is Eugene McCray on east side i think. I'll check closer to you but obviously in your neck of the woods Reservoir 2, Reservoir 3 etc are all that's available. Some large lakes have little coves etc you can use in a pinch. But really your best option is to get north of Denton to the developed retriever grounds and beg borrow or steal water.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Breck, Thx, the area north of Denton is John Ackermans in Sanger. He sold his place in three parcels, I believe, and is no longer available. It is a great loss to the retriever community. I ran a ton of quality blinds there. 
A long time ago when I was greener than grass, I trained some with a guy who wintered there. I didn't have any appreciation of who he was. Later I found out it was Dave Rorem.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Just because it sold doesn't mean unavailable. Actually go knock on the doors yourself and find out, if you haven't already. 
There's a bunch of other water besides Ackerman's. Maybe a longer drive but......


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Breck, Thx, the area north of Denton is John Ackermans in Sanger. He sold his place in three parcels, I believe, and is no longer available. It is a great loss to the retriever community. I ran a ton of quality blinds there.
> A long time ago when I was greener than grass, I trained some with a guy who wintered there. I didn't have any appreciation of who he was. Later I found out it was Dave Rorem.


Ackerman's property was developed by Jim Swan who's in the retriever Hall of Fame and I believe still is alive and lives right up the road from there.
If he is You Oughta look him up he' was quite the interesting little fella


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Before we owned land we trained at Ackerman’s which was interesting 40 years ago but now not so much. We also trained regularly on the LBJ National Grasslands near Decatur. It is a large area spread out in some small parcels and many have small to medium size ponds suitable for dog training. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lbj_Grasslands_Map.gif


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Jim Swan who's in the retriever Hall of Fame


And that is an interesting story unto itself.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> Before we owned land we trained at Ackerman’s which was interesting 40 years ago but now not so much. We also trained regularly on the LBJ National Grasslands near Decatur. It is a large area spread out in some small parcels and many have small to medium size ponds suitable for dog training. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lbj_Grasslands_Map.gif


.
Thanks for that tip Dr. Ed. I'm surprised by all of the water possibilities there and in the surrounding area. Noted on my Texas map, thanks.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

My target for first test is O/H Qual at Sooner RC on 9/20/19. It will most likely be very hot. I have been on their grounds twice for master tests and I don't recall any 250 yard swimming water. They have a O/H qual next weekend and I will inquire of one of my friends who ran.

I thought O/H meant the owner had to handle the dog. But in the entries for this next weekend at Sooner I notice a number of pros running dogs for clients. 
So, what does O/H mean?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Wayne Nutt said:


> My target for first test is O/H Qual at Sooner RC on 9/20/19. It will most likely be very hot. I have been on their grounds twice for master tests and I don't recall any 250 yard swimming water. They have a O/H qual next weekend and I will inquire of one of my friends who ran.
> 
> I thought O/H meant the owner had to handle the dog. But in the entries for this next weekend at Sooner I notice a number of pros running dogs for clients.
> So, what does O/H mean?


You are correct about what O/H means. EE may just be listing the default handlers for some dogs.
It is possible but unlikely you will see a 250 yard swim in a Q. Even if water is available it takes too much time. Down the shore, through cover, on/off points, angle in/out and re-entry are far more common in all stakes.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I thought O/H meant the owner had to handle the dog. But in the entries for this next weekend at Sooner I notice a number of pros running dogs for clients.
> So, what does O/H mean?


Familiarity with the rules is very important, the rule book is filled with gems.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RFTRET.pdf


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

This area has pros running O/H Q's often. They either own or co-own the dog. It is also possible the wrong handler was entered into EE. No one I know would intentionally try to skirt the rules. If the pro wins, it is guaranteed the ownership status of the dog will be checked.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

https://youtu.be/kPndhGenTY0
I did some of the things that were suggested. Almost calm. Plus I ran a 140 yard shoreline/cove water blind. Rowdy is bushed. After nap Rowdy got up favoring a rear leg a bit. After a couple of steps he seems ok. I'll monitor it closely.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Went to vet today for Rowdy's annual exam, etc. Vet also examined Rowdy for the issue with his back leg. He determined that Rowdy has a muscle strain. But not a tear. There was some swelling in the meaty part of the right leg. It was also sort of a mass. He drew a sample and put on a slide and confirmed nothing serious. He wants me to keep working him as the work will help healing. But to cut back a little for a week. So, we'll be doing hunt test setups for a little bit.

The problem with this weather pattern is getting to only work two days a week is killing both of us.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

One day it may be worth taking a drive out I-20 to here 
32°38'53"N 98°02'43"W
And checking the place. Looks like an old sand quarry maybe? If so they can be great water spots. In satellite view I see a non permanent travel trailer parked by one pond so maybe another good sign. 
Anyway, worth checking out.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Today’s setup.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Today’s setup.
> View attachment 78428


.
I won't comment on all I'm thinking about this setup but for sure I would move blind matt one square down and four squares right, same bird spot. Cross line for all marks and catch 2 skinny pieces of water and on\off point. Your blind is just a square in\out. 
The middle mark could be moved so dog has to get wet. 
Anyway keep at it. 
And regarding the Qual don't over think it. Just enter one every weekend you can and have at it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thx Breck.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Tried to make it harder today. Looking past short gun station and hidden water. Rowdy had trouble with the hidden water on the blind. Glad I learned there is an issue. I will work on this more.


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## [email protected] (Jul 16, 2018)

In my opinion there is a fairly significant gap from hunt test to Qualifying. I have run both and had some success. In general from my experience dogs that run field trials have to be technically sound at all levels. Keep in mind in hunt test if ur dog is controllable and has some level of desire you can have success. With that being said I have learned the hard way that when transitioning to the field trial game small issues that you think aren’t that big a deal will be magnified to a level that is hard to comprehend in field trials. So initially I would take a long look at ur dog and yourself to be sure ur training is thorough enough in all areas. Blinds are more difficult but I don’t see blinds being an issue marking is the game in field trials, if u wanna win. I always just tell myself at the line get through the blinds they don’t have to be perfect challenge the line of the blind and make it to the fourth series. I’ll tell u what I focus on most in training.

Field trial dogs have to be mentally relaxed to have success. Meaning he’s gotta be focused and excited to do what is about to be asked of him. 

Fundamentally sound. Decheating, fighting factors is to me the biggest difference in the field trial game. My training every single day focuses on some form of decheating training specifically on the retired memory birds. For whatever reason dogs seem to cheat more on memory birds. 

Focus. The dogs have got to watch the birds specifically the key birds. Pay close attention to that in ur training. There’s gonna be a short flier station that ur dog is really gonna want to head swing to. 

Work a lot on doubles down the shore long gun retired. If at all possible set it up so the wind is pushing them to the shore and into the old fall.

Q’s can be pretty tight not usually unreasonable but ur dog will be asked to identify each fall area and stay in it

Distance. To me distance isn’t that big of a deal you can gradually stretch ur dog out over the next few months. The key is to have a dog that is honest on long memory birds. Especially when they may not know exactly where that key bird is. Typically if they will get in that last piece of water or will stay in the water they will come up successful.

These judges know what mistakes dogs will make in all their setups and they will try to exploit those weaknesses at trials. They may put a downed tree angling away from the line when the dogs go around the tree instead of over it it pushes them into an old fall.

Keep realistic expectations. It’s really difficult even when ur dog runs good to come out first or second in a field of 40 dogs. Your first goal should be to get out of the first series then go from there.

I can’t say it enough fundamentals, running straight and a good attitude . Focus ur training on those three things and u can have success just be ready to get ur butt kicked a lot for a while. It’s a whole new ball game when u make this transition but so much fun. If u want to talk more send me a private message and I’ll give u my contact info. I’d be more than happy to help u in anyway that I can

Luke


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> In my opinion there is a fairly significant gap from hunt test to Qualifying.


You're getting dangerously close to heresy here Luke. 
You're also correct.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Stan, Pls don't take this thread sideways.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Stan, Pls don't take this thread sideways.


I won't, just a little Sunday morning humor. Luke's advice is very good.
You may not even see a retired gun in a Q but if your dog is doing well on long cheaty retired guns in training you will be well prepared. 
A good test will cause dogs to eliminate themselves if they mark poorly or cheat. Going through cover or over an obstacle close to the line is something I've seen a few times. Dogs that cheat it can put themselves in a very bad position. It isn't hard to train for. 
Long angle entries to water and or cover is another concept you may see that is easy to set up and train. 

I think it's be said already, the flier will likely be in the first series and you can count on the judges making full use of it as a distraction from the other marks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am not a big fan of making comparisons of Hunt Tests to Field Trials. Nor do I believe that there is a standard Qualifying Test. As is true for all FT stakes, the tests are dependent upon:

1. The quality of the judges
2. The number of dogs entered and the time available to test them
3. The quality of the grounds

If you can tell me: 
a) Who the judges are
b) How many dogs are entered
c) The quality of the grounds

I can give you a more informed opinion about what to expect. 

I similarly don't think it is very useful to say train for an Amateur, and then run the Qualifying. If you're Wayne and have done neither, there is no point of reference. 

If it were me, I would drop into a FT, spend a day wandering around, view the Open, and the Q and get a feel for things

I ran a Q two weeks ago. I thought it was pretty stout

Triple, one retired, with flyer - series 1. Pretty wide open. Birds at 9, 12, 3. No one retired. Long bird maybe 250. Good use of terrain, got separation. 

Blind run tight to the flyer - series 2. Run right after series one. Maybe 175 yards. Difficult blind for the babies running tight to the flyer. Some keyholes along the way

Water blind - long run to water. Get in, get on/off point - up and out - maybe 250. Stout wind caused some issue

Water marks - pretty open. Birds at 10, 12, 3. One long retired (350). Maybe 75 yards worth of swimming. Long run to water. In water. On island. Off island. Enter water, exit and go a long way into a hard cross wind. Tough bird. Middle bird thrown from dirt into a ravine with cattails and water into it. Not retired. Tough. Dogs wanted to hunt the gun. Had a hard time deciding to get into ravine and hunt the bird. If they did not get into the ravine, then they could not wind the bird.

Good Q. Tough. Fair. But, I knew the judges (I got them for the club) and knew it would be. 

I repeat what I said before. Train to failure. Work to overcome failure. Then establish a new failure point. If you and the dogs are constantly improving, that is all that matters.

Ted


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

You could conceivably train with people who run the amateur and open on a limited basis. That is training for the amateur.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Rowdy has adjusted to the popper, delay and then launch. I use Zinger Wingers with Winger Mates and Kent poppers. At the longer distances I have had to be lot more aware of the backgrounds for visibility.
This weather pattern we are in is driving me crazy. This morning I got out of the fields just in front of a storm. 
Thanks Ted.


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## Gray_Chin (Feb 24, 2017)

Ted Shih said:


> If you and the dogs are constantly improving, that is all that matters.


This may be the best advice for Q prep you have received ^^^^^^

When I look at the difficulty of the game and the challenges in the training without discouragement, but as a spark for my teams fire, than the journey becomes more important than the outcome on Saturday, and allows the space for the patience and skill necessary to train on all these different concepts. I have fallen into the trap...but life is tough enough as it is, so my time with my dog should cultivate passion and fulfillment. 

"Enjoy the process" has become my personal mantra.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Generally when I judge minor stakes, I try not to have a severe angle entry into water. I will use angles into cover to deviate dogs to the wrong spots. I will also use an angle exit to put the dogs in the wrong spots as well. I also try to set up test that will not undo training that I would be working on with a younger dog. Examples are marks that reward cheats, blinds run past water, marks thrown in front of water. 

I also tend not to throw marks to the far end of the pond (not saying never here). The reason I don't like those marks is a lot of young dogs are trained to "swim to the end" no mater what. You can place a good bird, that isn't contrary, with a courage swim that isn't all the way at the end. Using an angle entry with an up and out well placed bird doesn't reward a cheater, but also doesn't just give it to a dog that knows to swim to the end.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm having trouble with visibility on 300 yard marks The ones that give me the most trouble are bright sunny skies without much of a background. Yesterday I launched a mark at 290 yards and I didn't see anything. I thought the winger had malfunctioned. I went out to reload and found the duck where it should have been on the ground. I reloaded and launched again. I didn't see it again but thought Rowdy might have. He went just because I sent him. But I could tell from his demeanor he didn't see it. He backsided the gun station and winded the bird. I had to put white tape on the duck to be able to see the bird.
I shoot my Winger Mate with a Kent popper and then launch. Rowdy would normally let me know if he saw the mark but his ears are already perked up from the shot.
I am only training one dog at these distances.
Any suggestions?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I'm having trouble with visibility on 300 yard marks The ones that give me the most trouble are bright sunny skies without much of a background. Yesterday I launched a mark at 290 yards and I didn't see anything. I thought the winger had malfunctioned. I went out to reload and found the duck where it should have been on the ground. I reloaded and launched again. I didn't see it again but thought Rowdy might have. He went just because I sent him. But I could tell from his demeanor he didn't see it. He backsided the gun station and winded the bird. I had to put white tape on the duck to be able to see the bird.
> I shoot my Winger Mate with a Kent popper and then launch. Rowdy would normally let me know if he saw the mark but his ears are already perked up from the shot.
> I am only training one dog at these distances.
> Any suggestions?



​Tie a black or a white streamer to your duck


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I'm having trouble with visibility on 300 yard marks The ones that give me the most trouble are bright sunny skies without much of a background. Yesterday I launched a mark at 290 yards and I didn't see anything. I thought the winger had malfunctioned. I went out to reload and found the duck where it should have been on the ground. I reloaded and launched again. I didn't see it again but thought Rowdy might have. He went just because I sent him. But I could tell from his demeanor he didn't see it. He backsided the gun station and winded the bird. I had to put white tape on the duck to be able to see the bird.
> I shoot my Winger Mate with a Kent popper and then launch. Rowdy would normally let me know if he saw the mark but his ears are already perked up from the shot.
> I am only training one dog at these distances.
> Any suggestions?


Good job Rowdy, knowing to hunt the gun when he didn't see the mark may save you in a trial someday.
As Ted said, streamers but only when you really need them and just enough to make the mark visible.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

The speed that a winger throws the bird can affect the visibility. A hand thrown mark is more visible. I am no expert. It is just something I am aware of.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

DL said:


> The speed that a winger throws the bird can affect the visibility. A hand thrown mark is more visible. I am no expert. It is just something I am aware of.


 I was thinking the same thing -
also if you are using a winger, is there a way to put the duck in so that when it is thrown you can get a 'spin'? Sometimes when wingers throw a bird, it just looks like a blob.... esp a hen mallard.... 

which leads to the other idea I had - try to use drakes out there at longer distances where you think visibility will be an issue.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

I almost never use all the long hooks on my Mini zinger wingers. I think the bird is too fast, if I use 2 short and 2 long I still get a nice big throw but it tends to float in the air more. I also use streamers on many of my ducks and Bumper boy bumpers, especially when I am really stretching them out. Once they get used to seeing marks of that distance then I believe you can reduce their use.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I almost never have a problem with dogs not seeing the bird out of a winger even at a distance. I also think sometimes hens show up better than drakes. I think dogs can see better than we can


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

You could launch two big white bumper to a bird if the you think visibility is the problem and you are working on fighting factors to get to the area the right way. Flagging on a bird works well too. I rarely put a winger at a long bird though because I want a person there to help, rethrow, make noise, etc.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm truly amazed at the number of people saying to expect retired guns. Most of the people around here consider it a lack of creativity to retire a gun in a Q. A few even call it heresy. I can understand why a judge may feel it is necessary to do in the last series if they were not given much to work with in terms of water or cover. My mentor has said repeatedly that good bird placement trumps gimmicks every time. I don't believe he's ever retired a gun in a Q. When I see the kinds of things him, and others like him, do to get separation between dogs at the Open level, I'm inclined to agree that retiring a gun in a Q is unnecessary. 

Slightly off topic: I had the pleasure of sitting on line a couple years ago while Mitch Patterson judged our Open. He is an amazing judge and he let me pick his brain for two days as he judged the best dogs and handlers in the country. To say I learned a lot is an understatement. One of the things I found interesting was when he told me he had accepted a judging assignment later that summer in Alaska. He figured entry numbers would be smaller and was going to challenge himself and his co-judge to do an Open without retiring a gun.

There's also a significant difference between the Q at a weekend trial and the O/H Q that you may see at a Hunt Test. The hunt test O/H Q tends to be almost a hybrid between a Master test and a weekend Q. Most of that has to do with the quality and skill level of the dogs entered. That may be a better spot to get your feet wet.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> I'm truly amazed at the number of people saying to expect retired guns. Most of the people around here consider it a lack of creativity to retire a gun in a Q. A few even call it heresy. I can understand why a judge may feel it is necessary to do in the last series if they were not given much to work with in terms of water or cover. My mentor has said repeatedly that good bird placement trumps gimmicks every time. .



IMHO the variability of talent in a Q entry is greater than any other FT stake. As a judge you may need a test for 20-30 dogs that are already qualified all-age or a field of dogs that could barely get through a Senior test. The top 2 placing dogs are going to become qualified all-age and eligible to enter a Limited Open. I would expect at least those 2 dogs to be able to demonstrate the simplified version of an all-age test: handle a 1-2 factor land and water blind, honor, count to three on marks (possibly involving one retired gun). Marking a straight forward retied gun is a skill, not a trick or gimmick, that at least 2 dogs in the average Q field should have.

Tim


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I’ve had my pup in six Quals now and have not seen a retired gun. There were marks where the dog lost sight of the gun in route while other stations remain visible. A dog that has not seen retired guns is unlikely to do well in any qualifying stake. As has already been said here, train for all age when you’re entering a qual.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I ran 2 qualifying stakes this Spring. In the first, we had two triples - each with a retired gun. In the second, the land marks had a retired gun. The water marks did not


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I have run a good number of quals and have only run a couple that did not retire a gun.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm not saying that it can't be done, because it obviously is. I'm suggesting that it's probably not necessary if the marks are well constructed. Admittedly, I haven't judged enough to always be that creative, but I know more than one 100 point judge, one of whom I've been fortunate enough to call a mentor, that believe it's a crutch. If it's not necessary with the dogs here in Wisconsin, I don't understand why it would be necessary elsewhere, saving a lack of terrain.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Ted Shih said:


> I ran 2 qualifying stakes this Spring. In the first, we had two triples - each with a retired gun. In the second, the land marks had a retired gun. The water marks did not


Do you retire guns when you judge minors? If so, what drives that decision? Why do you choose that rather than other concepts as a means to add difficulty to a test?

Edit: I just reread this and it sounds like I think you don't know what you're doing. Not my intention. Just genuinely curious about your philosophy on this.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I’ve been to quals that should’ve had more complex marks, using retired guns or other factors. I would rather see more separation of the top dogs than have minor faults determine the placements.
This is of course hindsight and in no way meant it as a criticism of the judges.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The question is you SHOULD be prepared for retired guns in the Qual, not whether they are needed.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The problem is that the dogs just keep getting better. And a good portion of the dogs in the Q are run by pros. 

So, you can say that the tests need to be less complicated - and I get that. You want the entry level people to have fun. 

But, the reality is that as a Qualifying judge who is judging the Am the next day, you probably need to finish on Friday. That means that you have to create separation and have a workable number of dogs to take to the water marks.

In the first Qualifying that I ran this Spring, they had a triple with a long exposed gun, a short retired gun, and a flyer. Pretty meaty. Then you ran a short blind (200 yards maybe) tight to the flyer guns. I thought the test was pretty salty. But a good portion of the dogs did it. Tough water blind. Tough triple with long retired (300 yards). Hard. But fun. 

In the second Qualifying, they had a very hard double, one gun retired. After you picked up the double you ran a long blind (300+ yards) - maybe 30 yards off the flyer with flyer feathers along the blind path. No marker for the blind. Wind pushing the dogs hard out of sight behind some hay bales. Very tough land blind. I thought a solid Amateur blind. But a fair portion of the handlers/dogs did it.

So what is a judge to do?


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> .
> 
> So what is a judge to do?


Old adage: " Test hard and judge easy"

I have found this philosophy especially useful when judging Q's. This is the FT introduction point for many and allows for more people to be pleasantly surprised to be called back rather than disappointed by being "penciled out".
When judging any stake I will know the number of dogs entered but in the Q I will look at the catalog for an indication of the quality of dogs and handlers. All Q's are not equal! 
I've had Q's with 12 - 57 dog entries, some all inexperienced amateurs and some with mostly nationally known pro's so like Ted said you do what you need to get to the winner.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> Do you retire guns when you judge minors? If so, what drives that decision? Why do you choose that rather than other concepts as a means to add difficulty to a test?



Mostly, I judge the Open. I judged a Qualifying last year and if my memory serves me right, we had a land double - one retired and a water double - one retired.

Why? In large part, the dogs are that good. If you leave guns out, the dogs will get the marks. Most two years that I see have a steady diet of retired guns.

As a judge, to manage your numbers that means you either a) pencil whip the dogs or b) have a tough blind to create separation. I don't like either choice. By and large, if you get my marks - however ugly, I bring you back. And if I am generating separation through blinds, not marks, I am not following the mission statement.

You say why not use "concepts" to create separation. Yes, you could use "concepts" like 

- Inline triple
- Tight converging birds
- Wipeout flyer
- Etc. etc

But, then you are focusing on training, not marking

Ted


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

A QAA dog should be able to do retired guns. If you are planning to run a Q and want to win, your dog should be able to do retired guns well in training, consistently. As others have said, Qs range widely in difficulty, and the relative ability of the field. I will retire a gun in the first series sometimes. I have always retired one in the last series. Given good grounds, you don’t need to retire a gun to get answers, but AA stakes almost always have them in the first series. In my view a QAA dog should achieve that designation in a trial that has at least one retired gun.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

To echo some of what Ted, Steve and others have said, I will add a couple of things.

First off, your dog should be very comfortable with retired guns if running a Q. You will see one more often than not.

In addition to the fact that the dogs in Qs have gotten better and often have pro handlers, the QA2 title has caused the entries to explode. It is not uncommon to have 40 dogs in the Q around these parts. So then as a judge you have the conflicting priorities of trying carry dogs to get newbie handlers excited but you have to finish in a day. You also don't often have the best grounds to work with and sometimes are in the same field you ran the derby the day before.

I don't really view a retired gun in and of itself a 'concept'. Some folks whom I respect argue that a retired gun is the purest form of marking and therefore is certainly not off limits even in a derby. I've never thrown one in a derby but I see the point. I'd much rather put out a retired gun than, say, a hip pocket or something that is much more dependent on training.

I don't feel like I have to retire a gun in a Q and if so, it is usually not a short retired, but I will do it. Once I even did two retired in the first series of the Q. We retired the second bird after the dog picked it up to make the setup actually easier for the dog to pick up the long retired without the distraction of the gun standing out. It made the test easier and more fair, but you should have heard the gallery grousing about two retired guns in a Q


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> I don't really view a retired gun in and of itself a 'concept'. Some folks whom I respect argue that a retired gun is the purest form of marking and therefore is certainly not off limits even in a derby.


Feel free to add me to that group. If you could get the gun out of the field that would even be better but that is not practical.

I would also add that since the AKC decided to elevate the Qualifying to something it was never intended to be judges are obligated to make sure only the best individuals can achieve that title by setting up quality tests appropriate for dogs at that level. To exclude retired gun marks from the equation would be abdicating one’s responsibility as a judge.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

https://youtu.be/krGLLj33bH8
Our latest training day video.
On mark 3 the wind is just the opposite as i said. It was left to right.
The first mark layout was suggested by Breck
On middle bird, the swim was directly across pond but the factor was the large depression about half way out. Aside from dropping down in the pond and loosing site of the gun station.
On mark 3 there were two dry ditches in route.
Birds 2 and 3 had white flagging on their feet.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> https://youtu.be/krGLLj33bH8
> Our latest training day video.
> On mark 3 the wind is just the opposite as i said. It was left to right.
> The first mark layout was suggested by Breck
> ...


Hi Wayne,
That is a nice field and Rowdy did a nice job on those marks. Since you are asking for advice, I thought I would chime in. 

In general, we are trying to teach the dogs to run straight through various factors and to make choices in route that keep them online to improve their chances of achieving the fall area. As the dogs progress, we make the factors stronger, then stack them to make it increasingly difficult for them to stay online, presenting opportunities to handle, help, or repeat to get some success. Memory and retired/not retired have a big influence on the dog's effort to maintain the line. The tricky part here is knowing if the dog is giving in or just forgot the mark ( but that is for another time.) 

In my experience I setup training to counter dogs' natural tendencies, teaching them, then later demanding effort. Dogs tend to square ditches and hills; fade with the wind; follow subtle terrain changes; avoid cover; cheat water, square out of the water, hunt the top of hills, and seek land when angling in and out of the water. Dogs learn to fight these factors through repeated success on increasingly complex marks, and handling (showing the dog the correct way to go). 

One mark one, there are four obvious factors that can affect the line, The direction the bird was thrown, the bank, the narrowing tail of the pond, and the wind. The direction the bird was thrown should reward the dog for taking more water; the bank should help (square and it keeps you in front of the gun), the narrowing tail (take more water to stay online), and the wind ( fade with the wind and stay in front of the gun. ). Normally, I would thrown into the wind, but you can't in this case because of the pond configuration. It would be contrary. The tendency of the dog would be to grab some land toward the narrower part of the pond, square across it, square up the bank, then find the gun once it is in sight. 

Rowdy left the line heading for a narrower part of the pond, but squared across, which provided some help to stay online. He knew where he was going and corrected on the way out of the water. From a training perspective, I would have moved the gun further left to make taking more water mandatory and obvious. In the current setup, demanding a perfect initial line would be nitpicking in my view. If possible, you could back up from the water to give the dog more time to make a decision. The wind and squaring the narrow part of the pond work together the keep the dog in front of the gun. In training I look for opportunities for the dog to make decisions.

On mark two, the possible factors are the wind, the point, distance, and the depression. The bird is thrown into the wind, which is good for training on that. I think the most powerful factor in the setup could be the point. A dog's tendency would be to take the shortest route possible through the water. In this setup, you are giving the dog the shortest route, rewarding natural tendencies to square water and seek land. If you were to move the line right and throw the bird the other way, then Rowdy would have to make the decision to take more water to stay online. Beaching early would put him behind the gun. In training you would handle vs. letting him beach and fail. That setup takes the depression out of the test. It is hard to tell from the video what effect the depression should have, but it looks like squaring the depression helps keep the dog on line. Setting up the test so angling across the depression keeps you in front of the gun is preferable. Since dogs like to hunt the top of hills, you could throw the bird at the base of the rise coming out of the depression. The dog will have to hunt for that. You can't do everything in every setup, so you need to choose what you want to work on if the factors counteract each other. The take away here is to use angles whenever possible to increase the effort required from the dog. Failing to fight the factors and carry the line will take the dog away from the fall area. 

On mark three its hard to tell about the ditches. The bank close to the line is a factor and Rowdy negotiated it well. The ditch at the end of the field looks perpendicular to the mark, so squaring across it would not affect his line much. I could be wrong though. Without an overhead view of the field it is difficult to tell. 

Overall, Rowdy can mark standout singles well, negotiates the factors well, and is not affected much by a pretty strong wind on these marks. To progress, I would use more more angles, create water setups that require seeking more water to succeed, and add some memory birds. Start some simple retired guns (retire in route, thrown off line, or a short go bird) to progress him as well. They say, in a test just throw the birds where the dogs don't want to go. That is easier said than done, but judges get it right more often than not. Keep at it and you and Rowdy will do great. 

Good luck! 

Steve


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thx Steve. I'll let some time go by and repeat that setup with your suggestions. My setup, to some extent, depends on where the cows are, hahalol. Last year I got too close and a dozen or so large calves started chasing him while returning from a mark. Rowdy found another gear.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Thx Steve. I'll let some time go by and repeat that setup with your suggestions. My setup, to some extent, depends on where the cows are, hahalol. Last year I got too close and a dozen or so large calves started chasing him while returning from a mark. Rowdy found another gear.


Cows are a pain, but that looks like a nice place to train.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

The field overall is about 200 acres.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

EdA said:


> Feel free to add me to that group. If you could get the gun out of the field that would even be better but that is not practical.


You are already in the first group, but I will add you to the second as well.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just teleport them out of the field?


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

Am running my youngster in his first Qual in a couple of weeks and just want to say this thread has been very informative for me (as have plenty of others) and I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that has put their thoughts and opinions out there. For handlers like me who train their own dogs your input is invaluable and hearing different judges' perspectives is very helpful. THANKS!!!!


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

T-bone said:


> Am running my youngster in his first Qual in a couple of weeks and just want to say this thread has been very informative for me (as have plenty of others) and I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that has put their thoughts and opinions out there. For handlers like me who train their own dogs your input is invaluable and hearing different judges' perspectives is very helpful. THANKS!!!!


Good luck
Relax and enjoy the journey
In the end remember it's just dogs picking up Ducks


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I need advice on squaring ponds on marks. At the last hunt test he was perfect on his water work but he has started squaring up the water marks. Today at a different pond I set up an angle swim on a mark. The pond was about 40-50 yards wide. On a memory bird he started squaring the pond. I stopped him and gave an angle back to get him back on line. He scalloped back to the square line. I stopped him again, then blew the whistle a second time (while he was treading water) and burned him. He took the correct line then. Later I tried that same mark as a single and he just repeated the square line and I repeated same correction.
This has been an off and on problem for his entire life. I don't want him to start popping. In hunt tests it hasn't been a problem. Even if he squares the water he knows where the bird is. But I can see it could be a more serious issue in FT.
Any suggestions?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

One way to teach the dog about angle entries and exits vs squaring is to use chairs at entry and exit points. Chairs, with white coat draped over, are placed right at waters edge such that dog skims right by them if on line. Early on, for the mark, place a visible white bumper at waters edge and have birdboy toss bumper to land just behind it on land.
Anyway, work on the dog not allowing early square ins or late sliding down shore.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I need advice on squaring ponds on marks. At the last hunt test he was perfect on his water work but he has started squaring up the water marks. Today at a different pond I set up an angle swim on a mark. The pond was about 40-50 yards wide. On a memory bird he started squaring the pond. I stopped him and gave an angle back to get him back on line. He scalloped back to the square line. I stopped him again, then blew the whistle a second time (while he was treading water) and burned him. He took the correct line then. Later I tried that same mark as a single and he just repeated the square line and I repeated same correction.
> This has been an off and on problem for his entire life. I don't want him to start popping. In hunt tests it hasn't been a problem. Even if he squares the water he knows where the bird is. But I can see it could be a more serious issue in FT.
> Any suggestions?


When the dog fails, then does not accept direction you need to figure out if the problem is education, intelligence, memory, or effort. 
I prefer to backup and get some success and make sure it understands what is being asked and can demonstrate it can do the task, then move forward. If the you know the dog understands, then a correction is warranted. If the dog has been rewarded previously by squaring out early and getting a bird, then you have some untraining to do to move forward. Angling across water, cover, and various terrain is a fundamental skill you can work on in a drill- line setting then move it to the field. 

Down the shore marks set up as a drill with standout guns and birds or bumpers on the bank are a good place to start, done as singles, then as a double (two down the shore). In this drill you have the obvious gun and bumper to provide context for handling. Once you have things going well with the guns on the shore, then you can move them up and out so the attraction to square is greater and you can handle to show Rowdy the way. 

I have heard of the chair drill Breck mentioned but have not used it. I might try it sometime. 

Steve


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I need advice on squaring ponds on marks. At the last hunt test he was perfect on his water work but he has started squaring up the water marks. Today at a different pond I set up an angle swim on a mark. The pond was about 40-50 yards wide. On a memory bird he started squaring the pond. I stopped him and gave an angle back to get him back on line. He scalloped back to the square line. I stopped him again, then blew the whistle a second time (while he was treading water) and burned him. He took the correct line then. Later I tried that same mark as a single and he just repeated the square line and I repeated same correction.
> This has been an off and on problem for his entire life. I don't want him to start popping. In hunt tests it hasn't been a problem. Even if he squares the water he knows where the bird is. But I can see it could be a more serious issue in FT.
> Any suggestions?


Tune up drills, 7 bumper lining drills, 3-peat angle exit blinds, etc. Basically anything you can do to work on holding a line in the water and not giving into and squaring the bank


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I need advice on squaring ponds on marks. At the last hunt test he was perfect on his water work but he has started squaring up the water marks. Today at a different pond I set up an angle swim on a mark. The pond was about 40-50 yards wide. On a memory bird he started squaring the pond. I stopped him and gave an angle back to get him back on line. He scalloped back to the square line. I stopped him again, then blew the whistle a second time (while he was treading water) and burned him. He took the correct line then. Later I tried that same mark as a single and he just repeated the square line and I repeated same correction.
> This has been an off and on problem for his entire life. I don't want him to start popping. In hunt tests it hasn't been a problem. Even if he squares the water he knows where the bird is. But I can see it could be a more serious issue in FT.
> Any suggestions?


The last parts of this thread (sabirely's posts)have been educational for me. I just want to point something out. You and I I mean you as an individual appear not want to handle on marks because hunt test dogs or other dogs start to pop. That could happen for whatever reason. It isn't something I worry too much about. It has something to do with with how the dog was trained and the setups that are run. I have got a little mileage out of my dog being decheated and taking decheating casts really well. I'd kinda take that over squaring. Squaring is however what I need work on as well as retireds.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

DL said:


> Wayne Nutt said:
> 
> 
> > I need advice on squaring ponds on marks. At the last hunt test he was perfect on his water work but he has started squaring up the water marks. Today at a different pond I set up an angle swim on a mark. The pond was about 40-50 yards wide. On a memory bird he started squaring the pond. I stopped him and gave an angle back to get him back on line. He scalloped back to the square line. I stopped him again, then blew the whistle a second time (while he was treading water) and burned him. He took the correct line then. Later I tried that same mark as a single and he just repeated the square line and I repeated same correction.
> ...


I am reluctant to handle on marks too much which is why I prefer to train on it first in a drill like scenario. In most cases I only handle for giving into factors or switching. I’ll get the gun to help otherwise. As a general rule, I don’t handle once the dog has achieved the fall area or is lost. For me, handling is to show the dog the way in the face of strong factors.

Decheating is where handling on marks (accompanied by collar corrections) is introduced. It also introduces literal casting on marks as there is a white bumper sitting there they can see when turning with the cast. Down the shore marks, reentry cheaters, memory cheaters are all designed for handling to educate the dog on certain concepts, have a stable response to collar corrections, and to accept direction from the handler. This eventually extends to field level handling to teach more abstract concepts like running straight against wind and terrain where no gun is visible (retired guns). Solid education for handling on marks early pays dividends later. 

This is all very general and there are always exceptions, as every dog is different. There are many ways to train a dog, but this seems to work well for me.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Sabireley said:


> I am reluctant to handle on marks too much which is why I prefer to train on it first in a drill like scenario. In most cases I only handle for giving into factors or switching. I’ll get the gun to help otherwise. As a general rule, I don’t handle once the dog has achieved the fall area or is lost. For me, handling is to show the dog the way in the face of strong factors.
> 
> Decheating is where handling on marks (accompanied by collar corrections) is introduced. It also introduces literal casting on marks as there is a white bumper sitting there they can see when turning with the cast. Down the shore marks, reentry cheaters, memory cheaters are all designed for handling to educate the dog on certain concepts, have a stable response to collar corrections, and to accept direction from the handler. This eventually extends to field level handling to teach more abstract concepts like running straight against wind and terrain where no gun is visible (retired guns). Solid education for handling on marks early pays dividends later.
> 
> This is all very general and there are always exceptions, as every dog is different. There are many ways to train a dog, but this seems to work well for me.


Excellent advice.

While Wayne's question was about squaring water entry/exit, the same concept can be taught with obstacles on land. Strips of cover, ditches, camo netting stretched between plastic fence posts, etc. A lot can be taught in short, fun lessons with minimal or no pressure.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I just learned the thing where if the dog doesn’t take the cast you let him go where he wants to go, then correct then, then call back, then recast to get it. I haven’t had an opportunity to use it again where it was warranted but it seems to go a long ways. That is a new one for me.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

DL said:


> I just learned the thing where if the dog doesn’t take the cast you let him go where he wants to go, then correct then, then call back, then recast to get it. I haven’t had an opportunity to use it again where it was warranted but it seems to go a long ways. That is a new one for me.


Just curious how do you know it goes a long ways if you haven't used it yet? 

On a serious note, it is a very common and very effective technique
I believe you may be misunderstanding the way it's done, or at least that is not how I do it.

Specifically I do not let the dog take the wrong cast and go where he wants to go and then correct him. The reasons are multiple
The first reason is the longer you let a dog go the wrong direction the more convinced he is, he's going the right direction.
The second reason is you're just letting getting further offline which tends to makes your lesson far more difficult


Another reason is that I'm not going to automatically give a correction, and will only give a collar correction if I'm positive the dog can see me, knows what I'm asking him to do, and is just being obstinate
For most dogs the call back to where he miscast is correction enough.
I'm going to rely more on attrition, ESPECIALLY in the beginning or teaching phase
In my experience many dogs once they understand this teaching technique will many times give you more cast than you give on the recast after you make the callback to the spot of the error or miscast. I don't correct for that.

On a side note many judges, my self included, judge this harshly at a trial. Not just because calling your dog back in is not making progress to the blind but also because it is viewed as you're no longer running their blind, you are training your dog


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Thanks ... I’ll share the instance. Line to the mark angled a tip of a channel, then a 50 yard open water swim towards the front end of a point, then along side a shoreline into a cove. In the open water swimming towards the front end of the point, my dog was digging back on the cast to get on the tip of land with water on either side. Because I said I wanted my dog to take the water up the shoreline, we let him get on the land, corrected, then called back to open water and recast. It is pertinent to me because I have experienced dig backs in open water in ambiguous situations. Squaring exits look ambiguous to me especially after a long swim. That is what Wayne was talking about. My dog was more honest afterwards. I have heard to be careful with pressure around points so the dog remains comfortable getting on them. I wouldn’t have done it myself because of that. I have also heard something about picking a point of reference for the dog other than open water. That may only be involved with lining. I am trying to wrap my head around the squaring and angling thing so it makes sense me. I err on the side of caution and do what I want no matter how weird it looks until something makes sense to me. I know not to call a dog in at a trial. I might straighten him up if he is sitting crooked?


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I heard someone say that if there is no point of reference it is better to call in and recast, and if there is a point of reference It can be done differently. It is a lot to keep in mind. To make it real I guess you have to get out and do it and have tried it different ways over time keeping communication with the particular present dog in mind. Like I said I got something new to keep in mind to try.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

It might have something to do wth building walls and the dogs internal compass per the recent seminar I watched.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Here is a first series in a Qualifying that I just ran


View attachment 78944

Middle retired shot first (250). Retired under Ghilie blanket
Second bird (175)
Flyer (not in picture) at say 3 o'clock. (150)
No blind with test.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Ted. A little similar to my last video. Did the line have some elevation for depth perception?
Gillie suit? I don’t think we’ll see one of those down here for quite a while. It’s too hot!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Thanks Ted. A little similar to my last video. Did the line have some elevation for depth perception?
> Gillie suit? I don’t think we’ll see one of those down here for quite a while. It’s too hot!



Ghilie Blanket, not suit

And yes, we ran from a mound. The birds in the picture were pretty snug.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Today’s setup. I didn’t get the distances I wanted but didn’t have the elevation for much more. We had a rare north wind. M3 was go bird and was a gimme for a memory on M2.


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## PaoloMey (May 7, 2019)

Nice drawing  as long as you know where it was/is


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

How often do you repeat marks? Today I did a double. Go bird was 250 but the memory bird (175) had been previously run as single on 5/14/19. It was across a small pond. Any thoughts?


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

I really do not consider building upon a mark I did 2 months ago repeating.
We would all like to say we never repeat marks but that is just not reality. We do not have unlimited grounds at our disposal.
Every training and trial grounds has "X" number marks and/or blinds so repetition is inevitable. As you move into technical/concept training you will repeat bird locations but will vary things like order, approaches, relationships to other marks or blinds,....

Tim


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

I would like to say that I found this to be a very good discussion. Being relatively new to the sport, these kinds of discussions have great value! It sure would be nice if RTF could take this direction instead of the direction it is heading. 

I wish you luck Wayne and hope you find some success when you decide to take the step in this direction. And I commend you for still having the passion to get out and train being in your 70's. I have a few years before i get there but I hope i still have the ability and desire like yourself when I reach your age!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

jforqueran said:


> I would like to say that I found this to be a very good discussion. Being relatively new to the sport, these kinds of discussions have great value! It sure would be nice if RTF could take this direction instead of the direction it is heading.
> 
> I wish you luck Wayne and hope you find some success when you decide to take the step in this direction. And I commend you for still having the passion to get out and train being in your 70's. I have a few years before i get there but I hope i still have the ability and desire like yourself when I reach your age!


JF, I owed you a reply from March that I just made. I'll send you a PM also.

Chris


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Setup on 7/26/19. I should have videoed but forgot my camera. I was working on concepts and not so much distance. Rowdy did extremely well on M2,3 and B. He went on the lines shown on sketch. 
I do have a question on M1. The setup was at M1(A). He went and set up a hunt at a previous fall at M1(B) which I have previously run twice but with a significant time lapse between them. I handled and then repeated later after other dogs. I have noticed this same issue with my older dog Shadow. What do think about this issue of going back to previous falls that were very close?
Recently the early mornings have been very calm and Rowdy has been doing weird stuff.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> View attachment 79040
> 
> Setup on 7/26/19. I should have videoed but forgot my camera. I was working on concepts and not so much distance. Rowdy did extremely well on M2,3 and B. He went on the lines shown on sketch.
> I do have a question on M1. The setup was at M1(A). He went and set up a hunt at a previous fall at M1(B) which I have
> ...


Maybe he was pushing off the water or some other factor that put him behind the gun. I assume M1 is a go bird or single so he should do it. Being lazy maybe? 

Weird stuff makes me wonder about tick born disease. You might check that out.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Sabireley said:


> Maybe he was pushing off the water or some other factor that put him behind the gun. I assume M1 is a go bird or single so he should do it. Being lazy maybe?
> 
> Weird stuff makes me wonder about tick born disease. You might check that out.


Was wondering similar - were these single marks or multiple and if multiple was 1A the memory mark, or was 3 the memory mark? 

By saying run previously - meaning in this session? or on a previous day?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Singles. Previously was on previous days with quite a few days between.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Confirm the scenario... had already picked up marks 2 and 3 (order?) as singles. headed to mark one but run behind the corner of the pond to mark 3 instead. no wind.

some things to think about
how long it has been since he had a 'vacation' - more than a day or two off
how much more pressure are you using now vs before you started training for Q's - not just collar pressure, all kinds of pressure 
and as mentioned - is it possible he is not feeling well due to tick or other issues?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Order was 1,2,3. Singles. 1- back sided gun and hunted in previous fall from quite a while ago. We pushed a lot this last week because of the cooler weather. Back to summertime norms and we're working only four days a week. This past Saturday we decided to do a hunt test setup and ran a triple. He did perfect and front footed all marks.
We last ran M1 (B) on 6/22/19 and it was the memory bird of a double. I'm thinking its a combination of too much work and calm winds.
Our summertime schedule is work on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

If there are factors pushing the dog behind the gun, then handling as you see him giving in makes sense. How close to the line is that cove of water? Is it visible to the dog from the line or while he is running by it? If there are no strong factors, maybe he is being lazy or goofing around. My view is that it is a single and the dog should bear a lot of the responsibility for getting to the area. I don't think an old fall from a few days before should be an issue as it is a standout gun. 

One thing to consider is where the dog is looking when you send him. I have a very experienced dog (AFC) who will look back at the gun when sent and end up behind the gun. In a trial I have to look at his eyes before sending him to make sure he's look at the mark. In training I will recall with pressure for that silliness. He can be recalled without side effects. Not all dogs can.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thx. I watch dog when doing marks but for head swinging and ears to see if he saw mark. I will pay more attention to eyes when I send. Rowdy recalls without any side effects. I recall on blinds whenever he gives me a bad initial line. I will look for this on marks.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Thx. I watch dog when doing marks but for head swinging and ears to see if he saw mark. I will pay more attention to eyes when I send. Rowdy recalls without any side effects. I recall on blinds whenever he gives me a bad initial line. I will look for this on marks.


Training for a good initial line on marks is important in my view. If the dog commits to a poor initial line on a mark you need to decide how to address it.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> Maybe he was pushing off the water or some other factor that put him behind the gun. I assume M1 is a go bird or single so he should do it. Being lazy maybe?
> 
> Weird stuff makes me wonder about tick born disease. You might check that out.


I had mine tested at the same time he was tested for heartworm. My vet used the same little vial of blood. If anyone gets it on their mind and it lingers, that seems like a good time to do it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Rowdy just recently had his annual exam which included heart worm test and a full blood panel. Health wise we're good.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

This weather pattern is killing me. Very calm early in the morning and this morning a heavy dew. It was about 8:45 before the dew burnt off. There wasn't even a hint of a breeze until about 9:30. Rowdy ran good direct lines to the area of fall today, no silliness. Front footed two marks but I had to handle on two marks. Got to the area of fall but couldn't pick up a breeze at all. Plus poor scent conditions with dew in heavy cover.
9:30 is about when it gets to be 85 degrees which is my quitting point.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> This weather pattern is killing me. Very calm early in the morning and this morning a heavy dew. It was about 8:45 before the dew burnt off. There wasn't even a hint of a breeze until about 9:30. Rowdy ran good direct lines to the area of fall today, no silliness. Front footed two marks but I had to handle on two marks. Got to the area of fall but couldn't pick up a breeze at all. Plus poor scent conditions with dew in heavy cover.
> 9:30 is about when it gets to be 85 degrees which is my quitting point.


Sure wish I never trained when the temperature exceeded 85, if I did I would be severely restricted in training opportunities in July, August, and early September.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

More Q information. Just ran a Q with:

Land Triple, one bird retired.
Followed with a 300+ yard land blind, under the arc of the middle mark.

Last series, triple, one retired. Go bird 5 yards on your left thrown into the water. (2 running dog broke, 1 running dog - on honor - broke shortly afterwards


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> More Q information. Just ran a Q with:
> 
> Land Triple, one bird retired.
> Followed with a 300+ yard land blind, under the arc of the middle mark.
> ...


OUCH! Seems excessive, especially with an Honor involved. How did your dog fare, Ted?- Paul


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

2d and RJ I think. Or a week later 2d and J.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Ted Shih said:


> More Q information. Just ran a Q with:
> 
> Land Triple, one bird retired.
> Followed with a 300+ yard land blind, under the arc of the middle mark.
> ...


5 yard splash go bird in the 4th series of a Q?????
I'm surprised more (all)dogs didn't break


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I was always taught a breaking bird is a waste of a mark but sounds like that is popular in hunt tests too.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ted, Was the Q with 30+ dogs more difficult than the one with only 14 dogs?


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Wayne Nutt said:


> 2d and RJ I think. Or a week later 2d and J.


Wasnt the one with the 2nd & Jam, I'm training with one of the judges of that one and he said his last series did not have a bird in the water and the closest bird was 75 to a hundred yards away.
Sounds like Ted's got a nice young up-and-comer as that dog won the Q at the Woman's Trial in the next trial it ran AND also finished and got a jam in the Am.

Good job Ted sounds like he got another nice one coming on.
Enjoy the ride!!


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## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Ted, Was the Q with 30+ dogs more difficult than the one with only 14 dogs?


I can't speak to the difficulty level of the marks but the callbacks in the 14 dog qual were probably more generous (or should have been) than the callbacks in the 30 dog qual.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

paul young said:


> OUCH! Seems excessive, especially with an Honor involved. How did your dog fare, Ted?- Paul



Bosch (Freeridin RHD) won. But, that last series was scary. First series land blind would have made a tough Am blind


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Ted, Was the Q with 30+ dogs more difficult than the one with only 14 dogs?



Kind of blurring together. Have run 4 Q after the NARC with Bosch (Freeridin RHD) and Bjorn (Freeridin Centre Court)

Q1: 30+ Bosch J
Q2: 30+ Bosch 2nd, Bjorn RJ
Q3: 14 Bosch 2, Bjorn J
Q4: 24 Bosch 1

Q3 was the lightest. Judges wanted to carry everyone as long as possible


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Rowdy took the month of August off while I worked with the young dogs: Shiner and Rudy. So we started back with Rowdy and he is getting his legs back plus needs to lose 2 pounds.
I didn't range distances but they were not very long. Rowdy was gassed.
https://youtu.be/j8hL73ODWCI


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't think Rowdy is seeing well at q distances. The above video was shot at hunt test distances and he does fine with these marks. He did well last Saturday with similar distances. Today on a mark at 171 yards he was running like he didn't see the mark. He was just going in the direction I sent him. He went about 100 yds past the fall and finally checked up and popped. Previous two dogs (Rudy and Shiner, 10 mo.) slammed the mark. He was doing this is July and running straight at the stickmen and hunting out. I thought he was just worn out from the heat. Thus taking the month of August off.
He has had eye lid surgery to remove a growth where a pie shaped piece of the lid was removed. One of the risks is the eyeball could get out of round but his was ok after surgery. The surgery was about a year ago or so (way before the 2018 Master National). He had a full blood panel at his last annual exam which was fairly recently and after these issues showed up.
Shadow has his annual exam tomorrow afternoon and I will discuss Rowdy's issues with vet (he did the surgery). Based on what he says, I'll probably take Rowdy to see Dr Munger, Animal Ophthalmology. Dr Munger did his eye certification exam about two years ago.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Damn, that's tough Wayne. Hope you can get some (good) answers at the vet.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ophthalmologist appointment on 9/19/19.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Back from Ophthalmologist. Rowdy's eyes were normal. Only explanation is that his focus might have changed. He could test for that but I didn't pursue it. If his focus has changed he would have to have contact lens. Didn't seem like something that was practical or I wanted to do. Apparently there is some past study with field trial dogs and changing focus using contact lenses.
I guess I'll just have to stick to hunt tests.


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## priceskeet (Jun 30, 2008)

Wayne don't give up, he just might not want to look out that far. Start at hunt test distance and work your way out . See if that may help


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I fall in the Randy Price camp. Don't give up. Run the dog in an O/H Q and see if Rowdy brings it on game day. You will be out an entry fee but can still run Master on Saturday. It is never wasted money when you are enjoying the journey!


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