# Exceptional Marking - the top 10% club who belongs?



## choclabs (Sep 7, 2005)

This is a challenge to the members of this forum which collectively represents several thousands of man years in training, handling, producing and watching retrievers perform.

Please take the time to reply with your list of those dogs that were exceptional markers. The best of the best. Those dogs that proved they had been born with an ability to mark that was far better than their peers. The ones who KNOW where the birds are as opposed to those dogs who go to where the birds are. Use your own criteria, but please nominate only those dogs that you saw consistently demonstrate this talent and seemed to make it look less than difficult. 

I also wish to have you list only those dogs that you personally witnessed do this regardless of whether it was in training or at events. What I hope is that we will not have replies from people who assume such and such dog was a GREAT marker because of the dog's track record or reputation but never actually saw such and such dog demonstrate this skill. If we get a large number of dogs nominated, then it will be interesting to look at which blood lines tended to bring this magic to their progeny. 

The more that this consortium participates with this request, then those amongst us with statistical and genetic analysis training, will likely be able to identify some patterns in the nominations. 

Please strive to nominate only those dogs that you consider to be greatest markers you have ever seen perform.

I hope that this becomes an interesting thread which pulls together some consensus from the collective conciousness of all those who love what these dogs are capable of doing.

Respectfully,
Michael Watson


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Aran Islands Dougan, owned by Pat Martin

Nubian 7, owned by Mick Presco


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Best marking dog that I have ever witnessed (on several occassions) was
01 NFC Eagle Ridge Rocket Sam.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

OZZY owned by Benjy Griffith and
WEEZER owned by (can't keep track)

Two wonderful animals!


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Kweezy, hands down.

The best marking dog i've ever seen... and per Danny Farmer, the best he's seen. Trumarcs Zip Code was his second choice.

SM


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Kweezy, hands down.
> 
> The best marking dog i've ever seen... and per Danny Farmer, the best he's seen. Trumarcs Zip Code was his second choice.
> 
> SM



How about currently competing dogs?


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> How about currently competing dogs?


Pogo and Skeeter are the two best i've seen, judged, ran against.

SM


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Franco said:


> Best marking dog that I have ever witnessed (on several occassions) was
> 01 NFC Eagle Ridge Rocket Sam.


I thought very good, not great.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Pogo and Skeeter are the two best i've seen, judged, ran against.
> 
> SM


Again, I think very good, not great


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Of the dogs I have seen, I consider
Kweezy and Auggie to be great marking dogs.

I don't know that I have seen great recently


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Beverly Burns said:


> OZZY owned by Benjy Griffith and
> WEEZER owned by (can't keep track)
> 
> Two wonderful animals!


Iv'e only seen Weezer run a couple of times but to be a finalist as many times as he has he has to be a way above average marking dog.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Of the dogs I have seen that are no longer competing, I thought Patton was a truly exception marker. Of the current dogs I've seen, AFC Robber's Stray Bullet. I've trained with FC and/or AFC's, National Finalists, etc., and none of them marked the way Bullet does.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

How far back do you want to go with this?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I believe there are a few very good marking dogs. I *think* Gracie is a very good marker. I'd put Tia and Pearl in that category as well. I *think* the phrases "Great marker" or "superb marking ability" are over used.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

only based on dogs I have actually seen up close


1. NAFC FC Ray's Rascal-still the best and threw great markers too

2. NAFC Dude's Double or Nothin

3. FC AFC Hiwood Piper

4. NAFC Trumarc's Zip Code

5. FC AFC Tigathoes Funky Farquar (best marking Golden that I have ever seen)


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

from my household Honcho, Zip Code, Trumarc's Ziparoo, Kweezy

also Kannonball Kate, Euroclydon, Wanapum Dart's Dandy, Code Blue, Lottie, Tank


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I prolly wouldn't know "great" if I saw it. I have seen one or two that were pretty good. Now if they'd just prove it...


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

FC/AFC Dust Devil's Shoot the Moon---Shooter was an excellent marker.

I was around him on a regular basis in both training and in trials. Ran him in the first five series in a National Amateur when Steve couldn't get there in time due to a death in his family. I was running my own dog, Hammer, but was more nervous running Shooter as I knew if he didn't do well, all the blame would be on my head! Shooter ended up as one of the Finalists. 

I always felt that Shooter could be pointed behind you, would hear the guns go off, and you could turn around and he would still know where all the birds fell.

Glenda


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

I think a top 10 list would have to also include "Mighty Mo"


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I believe there are a few very good marking dogs. ...I *think* the phrases "Great marker" or "superb marking ability" are over used.


I think we need to be careful tossing around superlatives.

I have had two National Amateur Finalists
- FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie
- FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer

Zowie and Buffy were both very good marking dogs, but not great.

I competed against Kweezy in the derby, in the Amateur, in the Open, and at Nationals. I pre-Nationaled with her in 2003. That was a great marking dog.


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Buzz said:


> I prolly wouldn't know "great" if I saw it. I have seen one or two that were pretty good. Now if they'd just prove it...


 
Same here.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

EdA said:


> from my household Honcho, Zip Code, Trumarc's Ziparoo, Kweezy
> 
> also Kannonball Kate, Euroclydon, Wanapum Dart's Dandy, Code Blue, Lottie, Tank


Dr. Ed,
As I read this thread about great marking, I realized that I didn't know much about Kweezy, and nothing about Ziparoo. I found the tribute you posted for Kweezy in March (http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67442), thank you.

When I read descriptions of Kweezy's marking abilities, and hear Danny Farmer speak of her in his videos, it makes me wonder. I hope my question doesn't offend you, as it is in no way intended to do so. I fully trust the reputations and qualifications of those who have praised her talents and marking, so my question is this: what was she lacking, if anything? She was a 3-time national finalist, which I think is fantastic, and a ton of AA points. So what factors do you think would have to have been different for her to have won a few nationals?

I found a little bit about Ziparoo here in the forum, but I would also love to know more about him, if you don't mind sharing (either in the forum, or via PM).
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?p=574054&highlight=ziparoo#post574054

Donald


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## moonstonelabs (Mar 17, 2006)

Shooter and Augie. Never saw River Oaks Corky but guess he must be up there.

Bill


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

"Babe" is the greatest marker I had the pleasure to watch on a regular basis.
"Houston" was probably second. 

Judged and competed against both


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

El Matavenados said:


> Dr. Ed,
> As I read this thread about great marking, I realized that I didn't know much about Kweezy, and nothing about Ziparoo. I found the tribute you posted for Kweezy in March (http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67442), thank you.
> 
> When I read descriptions of Kweezy's marking abilities, and hear Danny Farmer speak of her in his videos, it makes me wonder. I hope my question doesn't offend you, as it is in no way intended to do so. I fully trust the reputations and qualifications of those who have praised her talents and marking, so my question is this: what was she lacking, if anything? She was a 3-time national finalist, which I think is fantastic, and a ton of AA points. So what factors do you think would have to have been different for her to have won a few nationals?
> ...


PM sent your way


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Some of the consistantly great markers I've observed on my curcuit over the years were Ritz, Auggie and Shooter, plus Zeke and Rugby to add two exceptional Goldens to the discussion.

John


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

Very interesting thank you all!


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## Brandon Bromley (Dec 21, 2006)

Here's a link of the CNAFC CFC FC AFC Aces High III NDC "Willie"story by his owner Bob Beck http://www.aceshighiii.com/AboutWillie.html. He's not likely to post, but a dog deserving to be mentioned.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

You may have well have asked what type of truck is better, Ford, Chevy or Dodge...


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## Brandon Bromley (Dec 21, 2006)

"Exceptional Marking - the top 10% club who belongs? 

This is a challenge to the members of this forum which collectively represents several thousands of man years in training, handling, producing and watching retrievers perform.

Please take the time to reply with your list of those dogs that were exceptional markers. The best of the best. Those dogs that proved they had been born with an ability to mark that was far better than their peers. The ones who KNOW where the birds are as opposed to those dogs who go to where the birds are. Use your own criteria, but please nominate only those dogs that you saw consistently demonstrate this talent and seemed to make it look less than difficult. 

I also wish to have you list only those dogs that you personally witnessed do this regardless of whether it was in training or at events. What I hope is that we will not have replies from people who assume such and such dog was a GREAT marker because of the dog's track record or reputation but never actually saw such and such dog demonstrate this skill. If we get a large number of dogs nominated, then it will be interesting to look at which blood lines tended to bring this magic to their progeny."

By limiting your responses, you may be limiting your "magic"... So, I'm posting the dogs with 300+ All Age Points. They have PROVEN to be far better than their peers!

3XCNFC 2XNAFC FC RIVER OAKS CORKY NDC 505.5 (306.5 Open, 199 Amateur) 
FC AFC CREEK ROBBER 486 (220.5 Open, 265.5 Amateur)** 
NAFC FC TRUMARC’S ZIP CODE 444 (250.5 Open, 193.5 Amateur) 
NAFC FC KANNONBALL KATE 410.5 (173 Open, 237.5 Amateur) 
2XNAFC NFC DEE’S DANDY DUDE 362.5 (362.5 Open, 242 Amateur) 
2XNAFC NFC SUPER CHIEF 354.5 (242 Open, 112.5 Amateur) 
FC AFC GLENGARVEN’S MIK 353 (120 Open,233 Amateur) 
CNAFC CFC FC AFC ACES HIGH III NDC 349.5 (188 Open, 161.5 Amateur) 
FC AFC HIWOOD PIPER 347.5 (145 Open, 202 Amateur)
NAFC FC RAY’S RASCAL NDC 342.5 (170.5 Open, 172 Amateur) 
CNAFC CNFC FC AFC THE MARATHON MAN 314 (92 Open, 222 Amateur)* 
FC AFC CANDLEOODS M D HOUSTON 314 (115 Open, 199 Amateur) 

*Retriever Hall of Fame shows 329.5 points, AKC shows 314 points???
**Auggie is the only one not in the Retriever Hall of Fame YET


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## mcpoland (Apr 26, 2009)

Mr. Bromley overlooked Hiwood Piper - 347.5 all-age points (145 open/202.5amateur). He finished 70% of his opens and 73% of his amateur starts. For pure marking he was amazing day in and day out. And before anyone says he got all his points in Alaska (where they are easy) one should examine some of the perpetual trophies up and down the left coast.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Brandon, a couple of changes and omissions on your list

FC AFC Hiwood Piper- 347.5 AA points 145 Open - 202 Amateur

The Marathon Man was also the CNFC

the only reason Auggie is not in the RHOF , YET..is because the dog has to be deceased for at least two years...No doubt he will be a near unanimous inductee when eligble (hope he lives a LONG LONG TIME)

all the dogs on that list were obviously great markers,you dont rack up that many points without being one, probably only two maybe three people on this board who have seen/run against all of those dogs


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## Brandon Bromley (Dec 21, 2006)

Thanks mcpoland and Bon. I edited the post so it's all in one spot. Please list any dog I may have missed! I was only able to look up dogs in blue... http://www.theretrievernews.com/Library/HallofFameDogs.


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## cpj (Sep 28, 2009)

This thread begs the question, how does the AVERAGE person identify the difference between a marking dog and a dog that is a great lining dog? I've often heard certain pros mentioned as trainers who teach dogs to line very well.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

cpj said:


> This thread begs the question, how does the AVERAGE person identify the difference between a marking dog and a dog that is a great lining dog? I've often heard certain pros mentioned as trainers who teach dogs to line very well.


I personally don't think that is the case anymore... The marks are too hard and complicated. There is no way a national caliber dog can be a "lining dog".

Angie


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Angie B said:


> I personally don't think that is the case anymore... The marks are too hard and complicated. There is no way a national caliber dog can be a "lining dog".
> 
> Angie


Angie's right. A good lining dog doesn't hurt, but it better be able to mark to be a successful all age dog.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

El Matavenados said:


> Dr. Ed,
> As I read this thread about great marking, I realized that I didn't know much about Kweezy, and nothing about Ziparoo. I found the tribute you posted for Kweezy in March (http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67442), thank you.
> 
> When I read descriptions of Kweezy's marking abilities, and hear Danny Farmer speak of her in his videos, it makes me wonder. I hope my question doesn't offend you, as it is in no way intended to do so. I fully trust the reputations and qualifications of those who have praised her talents and marking, so my question is this: what was she lacking, if anything? She was a 3-time national finalist, which I think is fantastic, and a ton of AA points. So what factors do you think would have to have been different for her to have won a few nationals?
> ...



IMHO it's bum luck... She lacked nothing but a tad bit better run that day on a particular mark... I've had the pleasure of watching her at a few nationals.

Angie


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

cpj said:


> This thread begs the question, how does the AVERAGE person identify the difference between a marking dog and a dog that is a great lining dog? I've often heard certain pros mentioned as trainers who teach dogs to line very well.


Good question. I would think IMHO they have to be both a great lining dog and a good marker. Having said that, I've seen a dog won a qual without seeing any of the birds thrown at the 4th series cuz of flies flying around the dog's head. Everytime the bird is being thrown, the dog tries to shake off or try to catch the flies. I thought it was over for the dog but the handler lined him/her up perfectly and stepped on each bird.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

What about the great marking dogs that never had the opportunity to campaign extensively or had careers that were cut short by injuries? I'll bet there are a few old timers (respectfully) here that can recall some extremely talented dogs that had shorter careers for whatever reason. I know of one from Alaska who was the best pure marking dog I ever saw, but for most of his life only ran trials in Alaska and probably ended up with 50 or so all age points. The dog was with Billy Sargenti for a short time and Rex told Billy to bring his best dog to the line...Billy went and got this particular dog and Rex said "who's that?". Billy said, "my best dog". It was a dog out of Hiwood Clincher, FC/AFC Brutus of Wigeon Creek or Brute as he was known. This dog had incredible eyes. Could pinpoint mark at unbelievable distances...


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Lance-CO said:


> Good question. I would think IMHO they have to be both a great lining dog and a good marker. Having said that, I've seen a dog won a qual without seeing any of the birds thrown at the 4th series cuz of flies flying around the dog's head. Everytime the bird is being thrown, the dog tries to shake off or try to catch the flies. I thought it was over for the dog but the handler lined him/her up perfectly and stepped on each bird.


Lining dog or marking dog??? Hmmmmm I know of one AA dog with 170 something AA points that never took his eye's off the flier station and marked every bird...

Also the qual is the qual. It's not an AA stake.. Marks are considerably easier as they should be.

Angie


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> FC/AFC Brutus of Wigeon Creek or Brute as he was known. This dog had incredible eyes. Could pinpoint mark at unbelievable distances...


Bill is right. When I think of good marking dogs, Brute goes to the head of the list. I didn't get to see most of the dogs mentioned here but I saw Brute.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Angie B said:


> Lining dog or marking dog??? Hmmmmm I know of one AA dog with 170 something AA points that never took his eye's off the flier station and marked every bird...
> 
> Angie


His name wouldn't happen to be Drake by chance? If not, then you can add his name to the list.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Wade said:


> His name wouldn't happen to be Drake by chance? If not, then you can add his name to the list.


What??? No,,, I saw personally Drake only a few times and that wasn't the case...

FC-AFC Rebel Ridges Cody Mischief.. What a head case.. But a very cool individual. He just needed the right trainer to make it happen for him.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

But,,,, Talking about the "ancients" has very little relevance to today. Let's keep some perspective here and mention dogs of today that are amazing markers.. Dogs of yesterday were awesome. Could they hold up now?? I'm not so sure.

Angie


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Angie, I knew who you were talking about but was keeping quiet until you confirmed! I would love to have been able to see that dog run. His grandson is also an exceptional marker and just as big a head case, but insufficiently trained!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> Angie, I knew who you were talking about but was keeping quiet until you confirmed! I would love to have been able to see that dog run. *His grandson is just as good a marker *and just as big a head case, but insufficiently trained!


How could you possibly make such a statement?


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## David Witt (Oct 12, 2009)

Over the years I saw the Russell's FC-NAFC Adams Acres Cherokee Rose do some amazing work in competition.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

David Witt said:


> Over the years I saw the Russell's FC-NAFC Adams Acres Cherokee Rose do some amazing work in competition.


I'll second that one. I only saw her in Nationals and fortunately, twice in pre-national training. Some kind of nice animal!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> Angie, I knew who you were talking about but was keeping quiet until you confirmed! I would love to have been able to see that dog run. His grandson is also an *exceptional marker* and just as big a head case, but insufficiently trained!


I'll lighten up, Carol, when reality settles into your posts. You haven't run an all age stake, and you are able to say that your dog is an exceptional marker?

I have had four FC/AFC animals, two of which were finalists in the National Amateur. All were/are very good marking dogs. But, exceptional? No.

And you are going to put your dog in the same category as Auggie and Kweezy?

Cut me a break.


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## TK's (Feb 23, 2010)

What about 3x NFC Candlewoods Tanks A Lot .


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

TK's said:


> What about 3x NFC Candlewoods Tanks A Lot .


Always been a big fan of Lottie


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## jodriver (May 15, 2003)

Glad to see FC AFC Aran Island's Dougan is on the list. I have a female bred to him and pups are due to arrive this weekend.


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## choclabs (Sep 7, 2005)

A pro trainer can win a lot of placements and rack up a lot of points with a rock solid lining dog, because the great lining dog was also born with an incredible nose. But I believe that the truly EXCEPTIONAL marker will over the long run take more blue ribbons from the great marking/lining dog.

Just my opinion, and that is what I am trying to get the most experienced of our members to focus on. The truly best of the best - those dogs that KNOW where the bird is and rely on their eyes PREDOMINATELY more than their nose. The dogs that I am trying to get these members to nominate do not require the same amount of repetitive technical lining training because their eyes tell them exaclty where the bird is and they are convinced of it. These EXCEPTIONAL marking dogs will more often check down their speed and then step on the bird rather than do a high speed U turn from a scent cue.

These are the dogs that when they do it, even you guys/gals with decades of seeing it done, mutter to yourself or the training group WOW - nice mark. The dogs that when you design a set up, they challenge you to see if you CAN hide the bird from them.

I know that you all have your own differentiators from what is a great lining dog versus what is an EXCEPTIONAL marking dog. But as a hunter (predator) I know which of my senses to put more faith in at any moment of time. I also know which of my senses are most accurate at that time. As a prey animal (deer for instance) relies on life and death by trusting their instincts, most often a deer will trust their eye sight and hearing, but the LIVE AND DIE by their nose! They NEVER QUESTION their nose as the alarm bell. 

I beleive that one of the ways to describe what I am asking you to reflect upon is that we all know Labrador Retrievers are born with VERY sensitive noses, that is why some of the FT flyer stations use only "lady pheasants" - lack of scent. The dogs that I hope that you have seen which are EXCEPTIONAL markers prefer to trust their eyesight over their scent detection or taught lining skills.

I hope you all are enjoying the posts and forming some sense of agreement on those dogs so far nominated!

Thank you all for your participation.

Michael


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

1967 NFC-AFC Butte's Blue Moon
Multiple NAFC-CNC FC River Oaks Corky
NAFC-FC Ray's Rascal
CNC FC-AFC Jalva's Sweet Charmain

Were all great markers that I watched multiple times, trained daily with a couple of them. As for some mentioned I would not agree but find it interesting that no one mentioned Lean Mac, unless I missed it in glancing through the thread. 

To go where these dogs that are competitive go, week in & week out, makes them very much above average markers regardless of what we may say on one of these threads. The guy that started Moon also owned a yellow named FC-AFC Copper City Buck who in the hunting blind would pick up anything moving up or down the Madison River early enough you were prepared to shoot without having to scan the skies. None of you have probably heard of that dog but he was a joy to hunt with, that is if you hunt.


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