# knowledable trainers driven away



## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

How many people/posters has this forum driven away over the year. I log on at least 4 times a day and can remember when the Mitch, Jan, Etc were regulars. Now we have the greatest thread in a long time and, I think the first time, I can remember Dennis posting on this forum. And certain members get in a verbal Pis$#%^ match with him. Come on people in the last couple of days I have saw Mike Lardy post, Jerry Patopea post on puppies and events so we know they are reading the threads. 

Please let us take this forum to the next level. Don't give advice if you don't know what you are talking about. Now this is going to get me in trouble.

Hope for the future

Trog
44 years in the retriever world and an old F$#%^


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Amen.The chastisement regarding any typing or spelling errors keep plenty of people I know from participating in discussions on here.I know most of it is in jest,but it bothers some people.Me,I love seating on ducks!!!!!!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

trog said:


> *Don't give advice if you don't know what you are talking about.*
> 
> Hope for the future
> 
> ...


Amen brother. I've seen some pretty terrible advice, and I barely know enough to know...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Its not as much that the knowledgeable trainers are driven away but they soon realize that just like in the golf business, many people on here arent really looking for help but they use forums like this make themselves feel better about the programs they have chosen, they get very tired of getting challenged about their training philosophies and or their client list or ethics...

I got to work with Hank Haney (Tigers coach) for a short time and he told me that every time he would go and teach at a PGA instructor seminar he would always be challenged by the Ledbetter disciples, or the Hogan followers, or any other swing coach guru du jour.

My point being it has the same similarities in the dog training world, when people ask how my brother and I train dogs, they really dont want to know they either want to try and convince me that their pro XYZ is better and that they feel better about the training regimen they chose.

I must commend Evan Graham for having the nutz to show up on this board and answer questions about his training regimen...I am guessing that many other trainers on this board either get tired of the BS and just walk away and stick to their regimen


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Lots of free advice on the board....as with most things in life, you get what you pay for.....

If, nobody posted bad advice or commented here, it would be pretty darned boring...

I would really doubt the "knowledgeable trainers" have any feelings of need to defend their merits or explain themselves. 

In the dog business, you really show what you know when run whatcha brung.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

trog said:


> How many people/posters has this forum driven away over the year. I log on at least 4 times a day and can remember when the Mitch, Jan, Etc were regulars. Now we have the greatest thread in a long time and, I think the first time, I can remember Dennis posting on this forum. And certain members get in a verbal Pis$#%^ match with him. Come on people in the last couple of days I have saw Mike Lardy post, Jerry Patopea post on puppies and events so we know they are reading the threads.
> 
> Please let us take this forum to the next level. Don't give advice if you don't know what you are talking about. Now this is going to get me in trouble.
> 
> ...


You are already in trouble Terry. Remember in your hometown your an idiot and 20 miles away your an expert! Having said that when you sign your name to your post right, wrong or ignorant to the fact your ignorant, you are entitled to your opinion. Into my fourth decade too. Remember the days of "Blue" some were not even out of elementary school back then.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

If we had to use our real names, I wonder how many "experts" would keep posting.
Last last week, I saw a post here under an "internet " name from a guy giving so called advice on FF when he has terrible dogs.
Saw him at a hunt test and his "best" dog was barely able to pass a started test. He has "trained" 3 I believe and I guess that makes him an expert.
Not saying I am any better than any one else but I continue to learn a lot here amd am careful to look carefuly at posts from people I don't know and even more carefully from some I do.
I have seen Kristies dogs run several times and admire her work but she answered a post not too long ago and immediately got overruled by a bunch of "newbies" who were all incorrect by telling a guy to take his 7-8 month old dog hunting before it was any where ready. 
If you were Lardy or Ledford or Eckett etc. etc. etc. would you waste your time with these guys?


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## marcj33 (Nov 14, 2008)

my .02

I am a newbie to dog training and i have little to offer by way of "what I do" because i havent done it yet, but I recognize and honor the effectiveness of dissagreements. Out of healthy conflict new ideas are born and the old are tested; that's progress-regardless of who is in the debate newbie or pro. 

I would hope that any of the pros who choose not to participate do so for reasons other than poor or inaccurate comments. Pro advice doesnt have to fight with or refute bad ideas, it can stand on it's own and be taken at face value, separate from any other.

As far as not giving advice unless you know what your talking about....every one has experiences and they're all valid if presented honestly, as experiences newbie or otherwise. That's not to say people should claim to be what they're not or present their ideas in a false light of experience they don't have. 

I trust myself to determine the good advice from the not so good advice regardless of the number of posts or the name.

Cheers and Merry Christmas


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I've often written that RTF can be a lot like panning for gold. 

There are nuggets of true value to be found. Unfortunately, in a public forum open to the global retriever community, some screening out of sand, shale and other "fools gold" is needed - to find the true nuggets.

Dennis shared some true nuggets in the thread that Terry referenced. The major offender has apologized and I believe (and hope) that Dennis realizes that his "correction" likely made an impact. 

I hope that all RTF folks can address each other in a manner that they would like to be addressed. I hope that we all can have a Merry Christmas and continue to share training methodology, knowledge and support for our fellow retriever folks.

Feliz Navidad!

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I've often written that RTF can be a lot like panning for gold.
> 
> There are nuggets of true value to be found. Unfortunately, in a public forum open to the global retriever community, some screening out of sand, shale and other "fools gold" is needed - to find the true nuggets.
> 
> ...


Buenos Nachos to you as well...

/Paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Buenos Nachos to you as well...
> 
> /Paul


Mi amigo. Eres un burro muy intelligente.

*Entiendes?


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Mi amigo. Eres un burro muy intelligente.
> 
> *Entiendes?


Para Ser El Hombre Tienes Que Venver Al Hombre!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Mi amigo. Eres un burro muy intelligente.
> 
> *Entiendes?


Sorry, my ass is not a fan of entiendes, unless they are cheese....


/Paul


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I have dogs with poor training, and posted on a force fetch thread recently. The kicker is I gave the most valuable peice of information in the entire thread. 

What I think is kinda weird is when people come to a site like this one and think that everyone is an expert, or they wouldn't be posting. I wonder about that a lot. What sort of crazy logic is going into that? It will take the same people months or years to figure out that not every who posts is a paid expert. Also, there are the people who don't post on threads because they are not experts, complaining about the people who do post because they don't think they are experts. Isn't that basically the same thing? 

Really, I think it boils down to having a different view of things. When I post I don't really care who the other person posting is. Why does it matter? They are free to give and take just like I am. They are basically wasting their time on the internet just like me. If their time is so valuable, why are they here?

I can't think of too many message boards on the internet that are some sort of social club. Trying to make it into a social club is only wishful thinking.


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## blacklabalvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I've been on this forum since I got my dog about a year ago and only accumulated so few post because I feel I dont have the knowledge of many of the people on here. I have noticed that when some of the more informative people on here post, I tend to read their post more thoroughly rather than just skim through it. For instance, many of the post by Evan Graham are very interesting and makes me feel like "wow, this guy is a pro trainer and is being very ELABORATE in helping fellow trainers for free."


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I am only guessing but the free help is probally partially promotion for his products which he sells for money.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Just so we get sumpin cleared up front!

ANY of you that take ANYTHING I say seriously,, need to get your heads examined PRONTO!

I kinda get a sick feelin in my stomack that MLardy may have read some of the stupid stuff and pictures that have been posted concerning me!

Glad I'm alanonamouse

Gooser


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Gooser , your self deprecating humor( compliment) is one of the things i look forward to..


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Criquetpas said:


> Having said that when you sign your name to your post right, wrong or ignorant to the fact your ignorant, you are entitled to your opinion.


Hard to argue with that.



blacklabalvin said:


> For instance, many of the post by Evan Graham are very interesting and makes me feel like "wow, this guy is a pro trainer and is being very ELABORATE in helping fellow trainers for free."


To me, I see the situation as a two way street. Users of his material get the benefit of having access to Evan for questions about his program, and Evan benefits because folks see and like his advice & are possibly inclined to obtain copies of his materials. 



Mike Perry said:


> If you were Lardy or Ledford or Eckett etc. etc. etc. would you waste your time with these guys?


On top of that, why would they waste their time giving advice to people they or their clients might be running against next weekend. ;-)


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## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

I am a greenhorn,and I like to think that my dumbazed posts trigger more intelligent responses from the more experianced trainers.

Everyone wants to be a part of sumptin Regards


Bryan.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I would suppose that this is mostly a form of 21st century enternment.
I like reading posts by the informed as well as the new dog person.. Its nearly impossible to explain to someone how to do something . Almost all training requires hands on.
The greeks have 2 words for it. one is to know experiencially and the other is to know without the experience. One is book knowledge the other is only aquired by doing.

The book knowledge works great if you are explaining something to someone who has understanding. If you are trying to teach someone new something they usually just nod.

which is why quite often someone with a little bit of experience can help someone with less experience.
Someone with to much experience can often speak way over someones head, because what they say may require the other person to have a certain amount of experiencial knowladge.

As far as running people off ,,,I think thats a matter of personality than anything.
Its not uncommon that an experienced person gives a good response and then is parralled by an incorrect response. It doesn't matter. Who cares

It would be a mighty boring place if only certain people were allowed to respond.

People just filter out what they can. Its that simple.

I work with aggressive dogs for a living and most people counter what I write when that subject comes up.. I take absolutely no offence what so ever to it. Its part of what naturally goes on in cyber space. And people usually have preconcieved ideas about stuff like that. 
I actually enjoy it because it helps me understand what people are thinking about when it comes to that subject. It enables me to be more efficient and a better teacher because I actually consider what they say,,, and understand where it comes from. I can use that to help people change when I'm not in cyberspace.

So even if you have something silly or potentially annoying to say,,,go ahead it may help some people and it may irritate others. Its all fun stuff.
Hell I even enjoy the arguements in(cyber space only). Everybodies different. My wife says I like conflict. 

Well before I start to ramble I better go air.
The dogs that is:razz:

Pete


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm basically new to a lot of this also and like to see, listen to and read responses from knowledgeable trainers. I'm here to learn as much as possible. Reading responses from Evan and Kristie and others helps me immensely. I'm also smart enough to know that I do not have near enough time to put into my dog what needs to be done to accomplish my goals and help him achieve his full potential. By listening to and reading responses from pro trainers it helps me to evaluate who I might one day want to send my dog to. 

The main thing I see here is so much GDG. So much GDG turns me off. I think that if that were put into it's own forum here and a seperate training only forum you might have more knowledgeable trainers participating in a training issues main forum. Just a thought.


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## Matt's Grizz (Apr 17, 2008)

I'm on my first dog after being without one for years. I've learned alot of stuff from dvd's, books, internet, the pro I train with, and this great forum. The great thing about retriever training is there's no perfect way to train a dog. All dogs have different personalities and handle different pressure. Like alot of people on here I believe I can weed out bad advice or something that doesn't seem realistic. What's also great is that most people being a pro or not do have some solid advice as most run hunt tests and have titled dogs that use this forum. I welcome all responses to my posts. I might not use all of the advice, but I welcome it. I figure when I start thinking I know it all and don't welcome new ideas I need to hang my whistle up................


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I mostly lurk and throw in my opinions from time to time when I think it will help. There are definitely folks here whose posts I read more carefully than others. Some of them have big names, some not so much but many of those I recognize as folks who have given good advice over the years--going back to the old mailing lists, etc--so I pay attention.

I hope that the experts feel and continue to feel it is worth their time to share with the masses here, because it probably is. 

If they are attacked by know nothing n00bs, it isn't their loss, they can chuckle to themselves and polish their trophies. Still, perhaps distilling their advice into bites we can digest helps them refine their own thinking. Many of these folks enhance their reputations by their posts here. There are a couple of them that I read their posts and think "I would send a dog to this person or recommend them to others". Perhaps the payoff is uncertain or in the future, but it is there.

Some even benefit commercially more directly. I have ordered several of Evan's DVDs because what he posted and how he described an issue or fix made me want to see more of his work. Dennis' posts reminded me to put my renewal to ONLINE high on my Santa list since I did not want to miss any of that valuable resource.

Even without this, they do help keep folks interested in the game, which anyone who chooses to play as a pro or capable amateur probably does care about, since they spend so much of their own time in it.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

I think that some of the best learning form this site, comes about when someone unknowingly gives bad or at least less than stellar advice. Often people will then offer opposing views and the good ones will also explain why they have that view. This way not only do we get what to do but what not to do, and the whys for both. And you never know when someone with an unconventional solution may have the best solution.

But attacks are attacks from either source and are uncalled for, it's funny that some people who present themselves as superior have to attack others to maintain that facade. I wish we could just lay it out there, analyze the content for what is meant to be expressed.


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## Loren Crannell (Apr 12, 2008)

For the pros there must be some time of every day where they don't want to think about dogs. We all need to distance ourself from work at the end of the day. 

Pros get up at 5 or 6 a.m, air the dogs, feed them, and put them on the truck. They train the dogs all day doing multiple setups and locations, take client phone calls, and barely have time to eat lunch.

They get done for the day, they air the dogs, and then feed them.

If you are a pro for many years I am guessing that sitting back on the old recliner is probably the better thing than thinking and writing about dogs. It would be nice to have their expertise, but overall I am pretty happy with the level of advice from this board.

At the end of the day for me, I am thankful I can read children's books with my young daughter, login to the RTF, and not have to talk about business. 

Loren


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Part of the problem is some peoples attempt at humor. Sarcasm can be hard to express on a internet fourm. I have seen plenty of times where someones trying to be funny and is taken the wrong way. Then they have to go back and smooth things over. 
It helps if you kind of know the person. If your new or if you don't come around much you don't know what to make of someone's comments. There has been plenty of things I've read on here that made me raise my eyebrows. Only to find out later that they were being sarcastic.
To me alot of the flare ups result from a misunderstanding.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

laker said:


> Part of the problem is some peoples attempt at humor. Sarcasm can be hard to express on a internet fourm. I have seen plenty of times where someones trying to be funny and is taken the wrong way. Then they have to go back and smooth things over.
> It helps if you kind of know the person. If your new or if you don't come around much you don't know what to make of someone's comments. There has been plenty of things I've read on here that made me raise my eyebrows. Only to find out later that they were being sarcastic.
> To me alot of the flare ups result from a misunderstanding.


I'm guilty of this a lot. and I do mean a LOT....

/Paul


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

trog said:


> How many people/posters has this forum driven away over the year. I log on at least 4 times a day and can remember when the Mitch, Jan, Etc were regulars. Now we have the greatest thread in a long time and, I think the first time, I can remember Dennis posting on this forum. And certain members get in a verbal Pis$#%^ match with him. Come on people in the last couple of days I have saw Mike Lardy post, Jerry Patopea post on puppies and events so we know they are reading the threads.
> 
> Please let us take this forum to the next level. Don't give advice if you don't know what you are talking about. Now this is going to get me in trouble.
> 
> ...


When I read this post, I kept asking myself the question, what has driven Mitch and Jan away? My response, knowing those two, would be nothin', cause I know they can both hold their own in a dog fight. 

Sometimes people just get busy and leave for a time period, and come back ie: LVL. Mitch as a couple of young dogs he is probably busy training, when he is not working... and dreaming of his retirement... 

I believe that dog training is not an exact science..... sometimes you need a "different" idea or two to get the result you want. I am sure Mr. Attar would cringe if I told him how I got Kirby QAA'd and running well.... 

Most people are able to separate the wheat from the chaff...


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Terry

When I read your post I thought maybe you were ready to join the grumpy old men amateur training group. I know they have strict requirements and they do have an initiation. I figured this post had something to do do with your initiation process, but when did those guys ever learn how to use the internet?

Jack


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## CrossCreek (Sep 3, 2004)

this is the reason why i hardly ever post...even when i feel like i have something good to say...everything gets thrown out of proportion (good, bad or indifferent)....

I visit this forum all the time, but don't post....I have even started typing many times...but just deleted it...I think this forum has much value, just have to read past the "dirt" at times.

i will admit though there are much worse forum out there that are ready to bash anyone that tries to post something. i've just stopped visiting those sites..... 

but you are correct: it's hard to give any type of advise from just a paragraph...

i don't mind the humor or sarcasm...sometimes this is the reason i read the posts...fun bashing is ok as long as you can have a sense of humor....just know the limits...(treat others as you want to be treated)


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

We see this happen a lot during the winter, when the RTF usage increases due to the lack of being able to train. I do know many moons ago when I first started with RTF there were many trainers on here who helped me become a better trainer (Flash thanks them for their advice)....most of those trainers are hanging out in the rafters lurking these days.....but as Chris said, there are little nuggets of knowledge - you just have to be willing to sift through all the other garbage to find them.....hard work usually has big rewards....so keep digging and searching for those nuggets......

I personally try and stick with the GDG since I'm good at that! 

Merry Christmas all.....remember it is just dogs picking stuff up..............or not! 

FOM


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> I am sure Mr. Attar would cringe if I told him how I got Kirby QAA'd and running well....


Everyone thinks they know something, even if they don't. They don't know what they don't know, and, if you don't know what I mean, well, I don't know!

Susan, could you, and report back to me?? 

Even if you don't know that's it's ok, everyone give your dog a big hug this Christmas and remind them again, how much they add to all our lives.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

For those greats that have been driven off please join the chessie sites. You will be welcomed even though you run the black dogs. Remember handlers need 2"4" to learn not the dogs.


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Watrdawg said:


> I'm basically new to a lot of this also and like to see, listen to and read responses from knowledgeable trainers. I'm here to learn as much as possible. Reading responses from Evan and Kristie and others helps me immensely. I'm also smart enough to know that I do not have near enough time to put into my dog what needs to be done to accomplish my goals and help him achieve his full potential. By listening to and reading responses from pro trainers it helps me to evaluate who I might one day want to send my dog to.
> 
> The main thing I see here is so much GDG. So much GDG turns me off. I think that if that were put into it's own forum here and a seperate training only forum you might have more knowledgeable trainers participating in a training issues main forum. Just a thought.


 
Sorry to mention this AGAIN, especially as I listen to Christmas music, but your last paragraph has been written so many times, Watrdawg, I wish Chris had a dime for every one. He could close this BB down and retire.

Not meaning to "pick" on you, you're just the latest to express this 'opinion'...so let me to attempt to explain why there is "...so much GDG". As you are already aware, GDG is unique to RTF. It's our family trademark, so to speak.

There are any number of purely "dog-talk-boards" you can easily access. HRC has one, as does AKC, and NAHRA. In addition, there are any number of 'states' that have their own dog-talk-formats. I've participated in several, but found all of them lacking an over-all spirit that can only be found on RTF. It's the purest form of a tailgate conversation, encompassing a wide variety of life's views, not JUST dog-talk.

As the newbies continue to lambast us geezers for the fun we have spewing our various GDG revelations, Vickie and Chris have them pretty well labeled, so you have plenty of warning before you open that egregious thread.

By the same token, do you realize how many times I've had to bite my tongue so I wouldn't chastize some first time poster for another "what's the best dog food"...or "what's a blind"...or "what does FF and CC mean?" All that basic info can be found so easily with a meager search. Most of the geezers have learned to either reply courteously, or ignore without comment. 

As many times as the old-timers have heard the "put all that GDG on it's own forum" complaint, we have made the request for a "NEWBY FORUM"...OR some type of "read this first" direction when initially signing up on RTF. Then you could access all the FF and CC and dog food threads, as well as the answer to the mystery of "what the hayel is the meaning of GDG???"

Seriously...this is not meant to be mean...only an FYI. You can't know how much you are envied, taking your 6 year old hunting turkeys. It's been almost 40 years since I did that. In fact it's been over 12 years since I took my youngest grandson hunting at that age.

After you have spent most of a lifetime training and hunting with our beloved retrievers, as well as teaching many others various ways to train these magnificent animals, you will also appreciate the visits and conversations around the tailgate, just to share views about life with friends that have the common base of love of retrievers.

RTF is far more than just a dog-talk-BB...it's a family of dog lovers with a myriad of interests. Why wouldn't we want to share many of these with our family friends? Just think, in another 40 years, RTF will be made up of ladies wearing tattoos, and our Golden Oldies will be rap music. Enjoy the journey.

UB


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Terry

Thanks for the PM. Both of us go back to the early 1970's with the Madison Retreiver Club as we are both lifetime members. The snow and the weather in Wisconsin has definitely made a reflection on our attitudes. I spent 7 days in Georgia at the beginning of the month, trained every day. Came back to Wisconsin and have had nothing but record cold and snow. I have 5 Labs and my training is a plowed out area that is no more than 20 yds. I also have a bad attitude. Can't wait to get to Georgia. Duffy says the training today is at 70 degrees and the ponds are full. The only activity I have is Mark asked me to write a history of the Country Life and Field and Stream Trophys for Retriever News. I just finished that today so now I'm ready to train dogs.

Jack


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

UB,

Great post on the "culture" of RTF.... should be made into a sticky for all to read.

Those that don't like GDG posts, and there have been numerous comments just like this..... don't click on them! It is truly amazing the power that you can have over your mouse if you really, REALLY concentrate on it!

No clicky, no GDG!!!! Simple as that!

Merry Christmas everyone.... sitting here with Deuce at my feet thinking of all the blessings....


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> And certain members get in a verbal Pis$#%^ match with him.


This has bothered me for quite awhile. Good knowledgable retriever people post and then get run off when others attack them. 

I was in Lousiana training at the spillway a couple of years ago. I met an amateur trainer/trialer there that I had just heard about. He had been on the RTF a few times and had posted a few times. 

He had made some training post and had been attacked on it. I forget what it was but it was pretty much a normal training/trialing problem and he'd given his .02$ on it. Somebody took offence and somebody else made a joke and that pretty much was the end of his responding here at the RTF. I thought then and do now that it was all of ours loss. I remember him saying, "Why bother?" I know he'd spent some time writing out his thoughts.

I'm here for the few grains of training and trialing wheat I can glean out of a whole lot of chaff. The fact that lots of that chaff tickles my funny bone probably is what keeps me here 'cause the grains are often far apart.

I don't think anyone here has gained as much as I have from this forum. I live pretty much in a trialing vacuum. Since I got on the internet in about '96 I've learned a heck of a lot mostly from the RTF. I really hate it when good knowledgable trainers are put off from this place. I feel it hurts me and probably them and the RTF.


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## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

Watrdawg said:


> I'm basically new to a lot of this also and like to see, listen to and read responses from knowledgeable trainers. I'm here to learn as much as possible. Reading responses from Evan and Kristie and others helps me immensely. I'm also smart enough to know that I do not have near enough time to put into my dog what needs to be done to accomplish my goals and help him achieve his full potential. By listening to and reading responses from pro trainers it helps me to evaluate who I might one day want to send my dog to.
> 
> The main thing I see here is so much GDG. So much GDG turns me off. I think that if that were put into it's own forum here and a seperate training only forum you might have more knowledgeable trainers participating in a training issues main forum. Just a thought.



Watrdawg, I couldn't agree more. While I also appreciate Uncle Bill's comments regarding this very thing, I believe it's all good even though the GDG (still don't know what it means...could prob'ly do a search easy enough) gets old to me as well. I just don't click on the stuff. I understand all that tailgate business for ol' geezer's tha UB refered to. 

I'm a greenhorn myself but I've been postin' here for awhile, mostly lurkin' for tidbits of training information. I take the good with the bad. 

I don't know about runnin' people off but here lately I too have noticed Lardy and Voigt posting. I don't know many of you but I do know their names. In fact I have often wondered why they never posted much before now. All I can say is these are the types of people I put stock into. Not sayin' no one else knows "how to teach us" or that the input they provide isn't worth it's salt...but the names of Graham, Lardy, Voigt, Milner,etc., they carry weight with me. As I gain experience thru time I'm sure more names will have clout as well. (Yes, I'm here often enough to know that no one here likes or even listens to Milner...I'm just sayin' his names been out there a long time. At least to this greenhorn all the years of experience of each of the above mentioned has to mean something to the ignorant (me), at least until I get enough experience to have a different opinoin.)

I hope you folks can understand what I'm tryin' to say here. I don't want to belittle anyone. I take in as much information here as I can possibly understand and digest with my little experience. That's why I come here. I for one am glad to get different perspectives on training...even glad to get Uncle Bill's perspective on this thread. I understand what he's sayin'. I can accept too. I wish more of the "big names" were on each of the forums I visit. 


Someone mentioned Graham earlier...I will say this. I know Evans makin' money...more power to him and any other...but he's on many forums giving folks "free" info. What does that say to me? Well, it tells me many things, but most importantly he's doin' it mostly because he wants these dogs to succeed at what they do, more than anyone I know. He shows it by the only way possible to re-pay (what dogs have given him) these fine animals we call dogs...by teaching us everything he knows so that we can become better trainers in the end...all for the dogs. He's not worried about who he's got to compete against "next weekend". It could be that he just has more time, or at least takes most of his time, to frequent these forums for us. 

Not tryin' to discredit Mr. Lardy or Mr. Voigt. All of these folks only have so much time at hand. I'm sure they all do what they can. I appreciate them even though I don't know them and have never met them. I enjoy Mr. Voigts magazine and would love to see both fella's at a seminar. I'm just not to that level.

Sorry so long.

Merry Christmas all. I wish you all good health and happiness.

Bill


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

This is a good thread and I've enjoyed and learned from it. As you can see, I've just been on here for a year and have quite a few posts. That does not mean I'm a expert of any kind. I have been training for about 5 years, and probably the smartest thing I have done is to send my dog to a pro. While I have posted instruction ideas occasionaly, they have been only on very basic stuff. Most of my posts have been ideas and opinion, some of which were very bad and were blasted, others were accepted, or at least tolorated. I have seen bad posts on here, and I have on occasion blasted people for their ideas, that was wrong of me and I apologize to any I may have offended. I do have one last suggestion in this post. If you don't like or agree with what somebody says, say so in a polite way. Quote what you dont like and start your post by saying:

"I DO NOT AGREE THE THE ABOVE QUOTE AND HERE IS WHY......." Bud


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> When I read this post, I kept asking myself the question, what has driven Mitch and Jan away? My response, knowing those two, would be nothin', cause I know they can both hold their own in a dog fight.


I cannot speak for Jan. But, as for Mitch, he told me that he was tired of the sniping of those who thought that they knew more than they did. For him, it was more brain damage that it was worth.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I've often written that RTF can be a lot like panning for gold.
> 
> There are nuggets of true value to be found. Unfortunately, in a public forum open to the global retriever community, some screening out of sand, shale and other "fools gold" is needed - to find the true nuggets.
> 
> ...


If only I could figure out how to reverse the current and have the moderator be able to "nick" a correction back thru the poster's keyboard . Now that would be a hoot!!! Any electrical engineers out there ????
Yea , I know some of you would be "nicking me " .

HO -HO- HO What Santa says when he goes by my ex's house !!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Uncle Bill said:


> Not meaning to "pick" on you, you're just the latest to express this 'opinion'...so let me to attempt to explain why there is "...so much GDG". As you are already aware, GDG is unique to RTF. It's our family trademark, so to speak.


Uncle Bill

Count me among those who wish that there was less GDG on this site, or that it be moved into a sub-category.

I, for one, am delighted that the political GDG is elsewhere.

But, like you, I appreciate all that Chris does for us.

So, it is what it is. GDG and all.

Ted


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Haven't seen a post by Jan in eons. Did he get caught up in the last political debacle?

NOBODY has a better avatar than his "style" dive. Your comments and views are needed here, Jan. Join in and share.

UB


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

A long time ago-1969- Roger Vasselais told me while I was in tears because Mariah had just completed her FC that her FC was important, but that there are many dogs who make their FC at 8-9 years old, what was REALLY important was that it qualified her for the NRCCS, and the mark of a GREAT dog was one who qualified every year for the National. Likewise I have taken this philosophy and transposed it to amateurs and professionals- the mark of a VERY good TRAINER is one who throughout the years qualifies and takes dogs to Nationals. If this is true and I believe it is that is why when I encounter a problem with a dog I call any of those good trainers whether they be Amateur or Pro. I read all the Lardy articles, I duplicate all of Dennis's drills and try everyday to work on only one task. These guys are proven and they think- those type of trainers have an inate ability to know what to expect and how they will deal with the problem when it arises-I am inturn am a conditioned learner and as a result have reacted improperly and hence the dog 's training was set back. I am trying to think as to what problem might arise and how I will handle it when and if it does. As Rex would say"think like a dog" "walk in his shoes". Don't ask for answers on a forum when you can look at people's record and call them, most of the more successful trainers are eager to help or like Rex said-"I have no secrets and my door is always open." Thank you Ron, Dick, Paul,Andy-Eva is getting a little bit better on the "fuzzy" bird.


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

After spending twelve years with a very succesful amateur training group, I know a lot. I do not, however, like to provide any advice to folks on the forum.

I was once reamed out by a 'pro,' who to my knowledge has never titled a dog (neither have I, since I work for a living, but my training group sure has). Assured me that group didn't have a clue (let's see, 2 NAFCs, at least 20 FC AFCs . . .)   It's all ok.

The first time I posted about our methodology, I was accused of trying to electrocute a dog. It's all good. :razz::razz::razz:

You just have to know who knows what they are talking about (there are maybe a dozen folks on the forum) and who doesn't.

Have a very merry!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Tried and true _Good _advice is just that, no matter who posts it.

What I would like to see some one post... is some NEW good advice. 

Mathematically there is only so many ways to pick up a set of marks, it's a function of the number of birds. Some may be better than others, but I am willing to bet that someone before us has successfully tried them all :wink:

When I start seeing things new or revolutionary being posted, I will then factor the posters credentials into the evaluation equation

'till then . credit where credit is due regards
BTW To me a good trainer never washes a dog out and can make a AA competitor out of a pet rock
john


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

msdaisey said:


> ....
> 
> I was once reamed out by a 'pro,' who to my knowledge has never titled a dog (neither have I, since I work for a living, but my training group sure has). Assured me that group didn't have a clue (let's see, 2 NAFCs, at least 20 FC AFCs . . .)   It's all ok.
> 
> ....


Ms. Daisey: May I please come throw birds for your group?!?!? (I won't even bring a dog!) 

Mark


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

lanse brown said:


> A long time ago-1969- Roger Vasselais told me while I was in tears because Mariah had just completed her FC that her FC was important, but that there are many dogs who make their FC at 8-9 years old, what was REALLY important was that it qualified her for the NRCCS, and the mark of a GREAT dog was one who qualified every year for the National. Likewise I have taken this philosophy and transposed it to amateurs and professionals- the mark of a VERY good TRAINER is one who throughout the years qualifies and takes dogs to Nationals. If this is true and I believe it is that is why when I encounter a problem with a dog I call any of those good trainers whether they be Amateur or Pro. I read all the Lardy articles, I duplicate all of Dennis's drills and try everyday to work on only one task. These guys are proven and they think- those type of trainers have an inate ability to know what to expect and how they will deal with the problem when it arises-I am inturn am a conditioned learner and as a result have reacted improperly and hence the dog 's training was set back. I am trying to think as to what problem might arise and how I will handle it when and if it does. As Rex would say"think like a dog" "walk in his shoes". Don't ask for answers on a forum when you can look at people's record and call them, most of the more successful trainers are eager to help or like Rex said-"I have no secrets and my door is always open." Thank you Ron, Dick, Paul,Andy-Eva is getting a little bit better on the "fuzzy" bird.



LANSE ; great to see you on the board...unfortunately you are one of the few owner/handler/trainers that can quote Rex verbatim because you lived it first hand. many of us can only live vicariously through stories from you , Dr.EdA, R.Halstead,Mimi Drake and others...( I know I have left out others) and although I am not a Rex Carr disciple (blasphemy) I do respect what he has given this game in the form of people like yourself, which to me is his true legacy..


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

I read this forum due to one inexcapable fact, one never knows where one will find a pearl of wisdom. In my younger days, I used to teach for the U of Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute, a part time job for a full time cop, teaching fire fighting to volunteer firemen. Many of these guys were newbie firemen, but exerts in other crafts or jobs or avocations, electricians,carpenters, professional fishermen etc. I learned early on that while one could get great wisdom about firefighting from the old firemen, one could also get some valueable insights from rookie firemen who had experience in other things. Fer example: when you roll up on a Haz Mat scene where you know the truck involved is full of something that could kill you, do what the truck driver is doing. If he is haulling A** away on foot, you may be well advised to follow him, he KNOWS what he was carrying!


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

2-Dogs said:


> Ms. Daisey: May I please come throw birds for your group?!?!? (I won't even bring a dog!)
> 
> Mark



Any time. And one of my buddy's dogs was named after your home town. He managed to get a few points on him.

And BRING your dog. They are ALL welcome. Seriously!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> BTW To me a good trainer never washes a dog out and can make a AA competitor out of a pet rock
> john


Next time, I see

- Judy Aycock
- Bill Eckett
- Danny Farmer
- Bobby George
- Dave Rorem
- To name a few

I'll make sure to let them know that you don't think that they are good trainers as they have
1) Washed out dogs; and
2) Not made any pet rocks into AA competitors

Ted


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Next time, I see
> 
> - Judy Aycock
> - Bill Eckett
> ...


I'll help you out on the west coast Ted. I'll hit

Jerry & Jane Patopea
Jim Gonia
Jack Volstead
Patti Keirnan (sp)
Don Remein
TJ Lindbroom
Pete Goodall
Brooke Vanderbrook

/Paul


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2008)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> I read this forum due to one inexcapable fact, one never knows where one will find a pearl of wisdom. In my younger days, I used to teach for the U of Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute, a part time job for a full time cop, teaching fire fighting to volunteer firemen. Many of these guys were newbie firemen, but exerts in other crafts or jobs or avocations, electricians,carpenters, professional fishermen etc. I learned early on that while one could get great wisdom about firefighting from the old firemen, one could also get some valueable insights from rookie firemen who had experience in other things. Fer example: when you roll up on a Haz Mat scene where you know the truck involved is full of something that could kill you, do what the truck driver is doing. If he is haulling A** away on foot, you may be well advised to follow him, he KNOWS what he was carrying!


Bob, what HAVEN'T you done???


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Bob, what HAVEN'T you done???


All Bob proved is he can't hold a job 

...jk Merry Christmas Bob


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Next time, I see........


Name Dropper.
Of course *they *are good, but so are those who play the cards they are dealt and can consistently get blood from stones.

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> BTW To me a good trainer never washes a dog out and can make a AA competitor out of a pet rock
> john


Nothing like changing your position in midstream


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> BTW To me a good trainer never washes a dog out and can make a AA competitor out of a pet rock
> john





john fallon said:


> Name Dropper.
> Of course *they *are good, but so are those who play the cards they are dealt and can consistently get blood from stones.
> john


Consistency and you are obviously strangers, John


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Consistency and you are obviously strangers, John


By this you mean ? (another one of those pesky "ques");-)

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

By this I mean, someone who says

1) Good trainers NEVER wash out dogs 

AND

2) These trainers are good even though they wash out dogs

Obviously, this someone has no interest in being consistent.
Obviously, you have no interest in being consistent.
You are a stranger to consistency.
Consistency and you are strangers.

PS - you might find that few people - other than you - recognize "ques" to mean "question". But, hey if consistency and you are strangers, it should come as no surprise that clarity and you are similarly estranged.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

That "they" are good trainers, as well as those who never wash out dogs and get them as far as humanly possible are is not inconsistent .

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> That "they" are good trainers, as well as those who never wash out dogs and get them as far as humanly possible are is not inconsistent .
> 
> john


That works if that is what you originally said.

Which, of course, it was not.

Don't you ever get tired of saying things that you cannot defend?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Since a comparison was never part of the original statement ,your analogy, which we will call option A) is incongruent ....I'll take option B) that that is what I meant by what I said

john


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## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

My own earlier post proves my point. No one pays any attention to a nobody, hence no responses to my post. Good. That means I was right about one thing at least, and it's why even I only pay attention to those "big names". LOL! Merry Christmas gang!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I think 95percent (I made that number up) of the questions here can be answered by most. There are a ton of knowlegable people here .
Most of the questions do not require a top 10 open dog trainer to respond to,, unless you really want to hear the tecnical side of a basics through advanced. in which the internet has proven not to be the place to discuss things in debpth. 
For that you need voice inflection,facial responce.hand gestures and specimans on the ground to point out exactly what you have described so you can see what those words refer to.
Hey a seminar,,,, good idea.

There are a ton of other subjects I find very enlightening here besides dog training and there are a ton of people that are excelent at it.
Vet stuff, welping,rehab for dog injuries,food,ect.ect.


You know,,,,a person can write many volumes of the "sit" command and its applications,break downs,promotions and its influences on other desired behaviors but we would all fall asleep.
Paul( gundog 2002) just gave an excelent summery in getting an older cronic breaker to steady up. Yet I haven't seen him win many nationals. How could that be. Do you trust his advice? I do.



If you qualified for the nationals then I think you want to seek someone with national experience. Well let me take that back.
All you history buffs Correct me if I'm wrong,,but Did Rex Carr ever run a National,?,,
I would defininely take his advice.

Sound training is sound training no matter who mouth it comes from.
It doesn't matter who sings the song as long as the song gets sung. If you can stay in tune that is.
Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> I think 95percent (I made that number up) of the questions here can be answered by most. There are a ton of knowlegable people here .


Bingo we have a winner..

Now as to the other 5% *lets start a list* of questions for which only Experts know and are qualified to give an answer.

1) Explain to us in detail how Indirect Pressure works.

2)On a series of collar corrections explain how *one*, with the collar,. (Use the symbols P+/- R+/-)are actually using Operant and/or Classic Conditioning .Or if not that, in generally excepted training terminology............what are you doing

3)Give us some examples of uses for Secondary Positive or Negative Reinforcement in field training .
_The use of a quick second Whistle_ to get the required response would be an example of the type of thing to address.

4) Fill in the blank

5) Fill in the blank 

Good post Pete

john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Bingo we have a winner..
> 
> Now as to the other 5% *lets start a list* of questions for which only Experts know and are qualified to give an answer.
> 
> ...


I'll give you answers, since you felt it necessary to PM me and state that I NEVER (there's another one for you Ted) offer assistance.

1. Quote “Indirect pressure is contrary to how humans think, I’m not sure it can be fully explained.” – Mike Lardy – Advanced Seminar

2. To help answer this one must understand the 4 pieces to operant conditioning. Clearly you don’t understand the difference between Operant and Classical Conditioning or you would not have linked them together with “and/or”. 



> Operant Conditioning.
> Something Good can start or be presented, so behavior increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)
> 
> Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment (P-)
> ...


 With this in mind, the collar does not fit for R+. 
P- = One can use the collar improperly and cold burn a dog for running around out of control. Bark collars also are based on P-
P+ = Indirect pressure on sit whistle. 
R- = Direct pressure on a sit whistle.

Classical Conditioning – Most commonly used with clicker training. You can use the tone aspect of the collar in much the same way as a clicker.

3. Again John you have clearly showed you do not understand Secondary Positive. Secondary Positive is something the dog has to learn to like. A second whistle is not an example of Secondary Positive. Clicker training is a great example. Dogs don’t necessarily like the clicker, but if you chain it with food at first then remove the food, they have learned to like the clicker. 
Negative Reinforcment is removing the bad thing upon the desired good thing. FF is a great example of negative reinforcement.


Now, do you feel like a better dog training now that I have discussed this stuff? How did it help you John? Frankly if you want to talk about this stuff I suggest you visit the Victoria Stilwel forums, they love to discuss this, you’ll fit right in….


/Paul


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Now John, No tickleing

I think the last time things got technical we had a free for all of "yes it is",,,"no it isn't" and it got difficult to adress all the different responses,,,
I think there were a pile of dead horse pictures in that thread

Or my memory might be fading.


In question #1
You must first prepare the dog for its use,,if indeed one can expect the proper response and attitude.

I will take a behavioral perspective,,not a retriever training perspective

It can be conditioned through neg re inforcement or neg. punishment. Depending on method you use to originally proof the dog will deturmine the phycological response to its use. Both work by the way.
But one or the other can limit or advance its use,,depending on the skill of the trainer.

Also it can be used on other commands besides "sit" where I think its most commonly used in retrieverdom. Most use it in conjunction to a refusal of some sort of trained behavior gone a-rye. example/Cast refusals

Some inadvertantly use it as punishment
Some use it inadvertanly to correct
Some use it inadvertantly as force

I say this because how it originally is conditioned will deturmine in the dogs mind how it is taken. Thus revieling its effectiveness in a given situation.
which can be seen by attiude and response. And also did it carry on to the next parralell set up.

Depending if the dog learns ,stays the same or regresses will tell you many things about the dog or the trainer.

Well I know I din't explain much,,,,probably left more questions with more to consider so I'll leave some for people with more understanding and those inspired to take your bait 
Maby this should be a start to a new thread and a new year.

Merry Christmas
Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

/Paul, I see by you *responding *to the Questions that you consider yourself an Expert. Your answers on the other hand seem to show..........;-)
But in order to be fair I will give you one more chance at "ques" 1) Explain to us *in detail how Indirect Pressure works.*
*While you are on the subject explain the psychology of Why does it work*

BTW /Paul I cannot seem to find the word NEVER in my PM to you.
Originally Posted by *john fallon* 
_Here are the last 25 threads you started http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...earchid=499119 not much guidance there. The next 25 ain't much better:wink:
john_


john


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Pete said:


> ...I like reading posts by the informed as well as the new dog person...


How do you tell who is and who isn't? Some write better than others.



> Its nearly impossible to explain to someone how to do something. Almost all training requires hands on. Pete


Exactly.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Merry Christmas to all RTF'ers!

Chris


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Merry Christmas!!!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Zipmarc
I think its pretty easy to tell by the questions asked. No its not a hundred percent accurate but close enough
Its a matter of asking yourself deductive questions about a specific question.
I am probably the crappiest writer here. I think and often write in fragments to save time. Thinking that everyone is following my train of thought. When in reality it is impossible. if we were sitting on a tailgate my hands would fill in the gaps

As far as helping people,,yes I think most of it happens hands on. Then my next question logically would be.
Then why do we extend our selves to help people or be helped over the internet AHHH now we're getting deep. Are we socially deprived group
Pete


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Pete said:


> Zipmarc
> I think its pretty easy to tell by the questions asked.


I wasn't referring to questions being asked. I was referring to answers being provided.



> As far as helping people,yes I think most of it happens hands on. Then my next question logically would be. Then why do we extend our selves to help people or be helped over the internet AHHH now we're getting deep. Are we socially deprived group Pete


When I was down at Rex Carr's, Lanse Brown would frequently remind everyone we were there because we "had a problem", by asking each newcomer: "What's wrong with you?"

I don't think I got his exact wording, but I'm sure would Lanse would be pleased to correct me.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *laker*
> _Part of the problem is some peoples attempt at humor. Sarcasm can be hard to express on a internet fourm. I have seen plenty of times where someones trying to be funny and is taken the wrong way. Then they have to go back and smooth things over.
> It helps if you kind of know the person. If your new or if you don't come around much you don't know what to make of someone's comments. There has been plenty of things I've read on here that made me raise my eyebrows. Only to find out later that they were being sarcastic.
> To me a lot of the flare ups result from a misunderstanding._





Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm guilty of this a lot. and I do mean a LOT.... /Paul


Yeah. Haven't read a lot of flare ups after you post, though. Just lot of gagging and groaning...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

zipmarc said:


> I wasn't referring to questions being asked. I was referring to answers being provided.
> 
> When I was down at Rex Carr's, Lanse Brown would frequently remind everyone we were there because we "had a problem", by asking each newcomer: "What's wrong with you?"
> 
> I don't think I got his exact wording, but I'm sure would Lanse would be pleased to correct me.


Mimi, those are the kind of stories I love to hear about, I am sure the content would have to be cleaned up for internet use, but in the days before the net, information was handed out firsthand, I mean you actually had to be there. I may be showing my age but when I was a young impressionable college kid I would be like a sponge and soak up all the info that was there for the taking, I remember the first time my brother took me to the National Am in Calif back in the early 70's and I got to meet Ray Goodrich and he let me hang around for a warm up session with NAFC FC Ray's Racsal,it was like getting to meet Sandy Koufax,Earl Campbell or Roger Staubach


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Nothing like illustrating a point about how people get tire of the bitching that goes on in this forum.

Here's my training tip of the day. "Throw the short retired twice."

Here's my tip for tomorrow. "Get your dog used to recognizing layout blinds by planting birds in them and running your dogs to them as blinds. Make them dig the birds out of the layout blind".

Merry Christmas!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Good for you posting your PM to me. Sad you didn't post my rely, by the way how come you didn't reply to my PM? Glad to see your still playing the role you choose to play on the internet. Sorry that my helping others bothers you so much. Like I said in my PM back, it would be great if you'd share you experience and knowledge from years of playing the game, instead of deriving pleasure from playing your internet role. Speaking of experience, this is what Webster's definition of an expert is....



> Main Entry: 1ex·pert
> Pronunciation: \ˈek-ˌspərt, ik-ˈ\
> Function: adjective
> Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin expertus, from past participle of experiri
> ...


So it seems to me that being an expert is really a matter experience. In comparison to a new person, I may be an expert. In comparison to someone like Lardy I may not be. Frankly I've never claimed to be an expert in anything, you're the one putting that label on me. I've found that those who claim to be experts typically stop learning, so while I consider someone like Lardy an expert, my observation with him is that he continues to learn, grow and evolve. I found him to be more than willing to learn from those who attended his seminar, listening to their experiences and mediating on the results as shared. 

But John, we've had this discussion on expert before, or have you forgotten? 


As for answering you question on indirect pressure, I really don't have any desire to get into it yet again with you. It was thoroughly discussed in this thread...http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30705

and you were too "pig headed" to learn anything....for reference here is the definition of "pig headed"



> Main Entry: pig·head·ed
> Pronunciation: \ˈpig-ˌhe-dəd\
> Function: adjective
> Date: 1620
> ...


Another good thread for you to review provided you find a cure for you "pigheadedness" would be this thread.....http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27084

But to save you time I'll leave you with a great definition of indirect pressure from our good friend Jerry....



> "OK, I'm gonna post this ONE Last time. If you can't keep up, take notes.
> 
> You send your teenage son to the mailbox. On the way he spots the neighbors voluptious daughter in a bikini (factor). He immediately starts in her direction (succumbing to the factor).
> 
> ...


I still think deep down your a good guy trying to play a bad guy on the internet. Keep up the role, who knows, someone might actually believe you're a ***** if you sell it well enough. Hope you're having a good day....

/Paul


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

See what I mean
Its difficult to talk about more technical stuff here. It didn't take more than 1 post after I took a stab at Johns challenge to notify the glue factory of a major delivery about to take place.

You guys must have started the festivities early.

Zipmarc
I guess the only real way to tell if someone is giving you a good answere is if you have enough understanding to tell if its a good answere or not.In which case you wouldn't need to ask the question.

In which case I guess John is correct .The one answereing the question would have to submitt a reseme' and those who know them would have to jump in and confirm a verification. Or the person answereing can present an affidavid.

Or better yet no one ask any questions lets just stick to GDG:razz:

Pete


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Yeah, well, this is a forum, not a fr*ggin court room.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> well, this is a forum, not a fr*ggin court room


Did some one find a hunk of coal in their stocking this morning.


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Mimi and Tim: It was Dr Bill Sabbag who was a Rex client and head of Stanford's Psychiatric Department(Dogs were Piegan-Blackfeet for Grand Chief) that first introduced that retorical question. Also some keep referring to indirect pressure and this is what Rex called the "hot stove theory". A person stubs their toe and they pull their foot up and bounce around screaming that their toe hurts when all of a sudden they back into a hot stove and burn their butt, now they cry out that their behind hurts and the attention that the toe earlier received no longer is an issue. Tim ,yes throw it twice, sometimes introduce a white bumper, sometimes throw it twice, sometimes make it a clip wing and if you have them a white clipped wing. The concept of a short retired is not disimilar to that of the imprint that the 2nd bird of a triple has. I have had real trouble with Eva on the "fuzzy bird" as I call it. She can hammer a 500 yard retired when thrown 1st and of course can find an 80 yard flyer, but damned if she can get the 2nd bird at 160yards sometimes EVEN IF THE GUN IS OUT! We work on it quite a bit and she is getting more confident. I was wondering how people on this forum worked their dogs today- Christmas. I just finished three handling into the water drills with Sophie and Eva. The great thing about this sport is that if you love the dog and you love to train you must be consistant, again Rex"how do you get sharp?" "You work your dog .". This message will fall on deaf ears if those reading it do not train their own dogs.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Lance my wife trained me today so all the dogs got was a walk in the woods, airing & dinner. But I'll still get in 5 days this week like most others. Afterall, there's more to life than training dogs......I keep telling myself that but I'm not so sure sometimes.

One thing I am certain of, however, we always do what we want to do most at any point of decision....... if you think otherwise you're just fooling yourself.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So it seems to me that being an expert is really a matter experience. In comparison to a new person, I may be an expert.......................................
> 
> ..............................As for answering you question on indirect pressure, I really don't have any desire to get into it yet again with you............................................
> 
> /Paul


 
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ-IT Wrong answer !

Yet again? You never answered it in the first place.

The question was not for Mike Lardy, or JS, or Jerry, it was for you /Paul

You told me in your PM that people pay you for your time. Well answer the question and send me a bill l

john


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

bonbonjovi said:


> Mimi, those are the kind of stories I love to hear about, I am sure the content would have to be cleaned up for internet use, but in the days before the net, information was handed out firsthand, I mean you actually had to be there. I may be showing my age but when I was a young impressionable college kid I would be like a sponge and soak up all the info that was there for the taking, I remember the first time my brother took me to the National Am in Calif back in the early 70's and I got to meet Ray Goodrich and he let me hang around for a warm up session with NAFC FC Ray's Racsal,it was like getting to meet Sandy Koufax,Earl Campbell or Roger Staubach


Ray Goodrich is still trialing! Just come to California and you will run into him again and again!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'll give you answers
> ....................................................., *the collar does not fit for R+.*
> .
> 
> ...





> As Lardy says at the intro to one of his tapes, you will switch back and forth from r+/p+/r-/r+/extinction, etc a dozen times in a 3-second event, so don't try to over analyze it. Reading what is happening and reacting appropriately is the art of teaching an animal


You seem to be at odds with Mike Lardy here.

I don't want you to over analyze it /Paul but you should at least know what is going on

john

john


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

lanse brown said:


> Mimi and Tim: It was Dr Bill Sabbag who was a Rex client and head of Stanford's Psychiatric Department(Dogs were Piegan-Blackfeet for Grand Chief) that first introduced that retorical question.


Dr. Sabbag did indeed originate the question, "What's wrong with you?", but Lanse, it was you who made that into a theme at CL2 for all the newcomers . Bill Sabbag only came out once a week to train. When you were in town, you came everyday. I used to run Bill Sabbag's dog Ace for him in trials as he didn't have the time to do it. I also used to trial Ken Corey's dogs off Rex' truck . Critter bred by Penny Youngblood. And Bosco, ugh. (Ken was California's State Controller)



> The concept of a short retired is not disimilar to that of the imprint that the 2nd bird of a triple has. I have had real trouble with Eva on the "fuzzy bird" as I call it. She can hammer a 500 yard retired when thrown 1st and of course can find an 80 yard flyer, but damned if she can get the 2nd bird at 160yards sometimes EVEN IF THE GUN IS OUT! We work on it quite a bit and she is getting more confident.


Your fuzzy bird, our yucky bird. Put it in the middle thrown as a hip pocket to the left bird, then shoot a flyer off to the right as a mom and pop. We work on that one, several marking concepts rolled into one. Tightening up as we advance.



> I was wondering how people on this forum worked their dogs today - Christmas. I just finished three handling into the water drills with Sophie and Eva. The great thing about this sport is that if you love the dog and you love to train you must be consistant, again Rex"how do you get sharp?" "You work your dog .". This message will fall on deaf ears if those reading it do not train their own dogs.


Well I just got in from working my dogs this afternoon. It rained from last Sunday through noon today -4-1/2 days in a row - it makes a lot of training grounds inaccessible when it gets this wet. We did two sets of land marks with blinds before and after. And the younger dogs got yard work.

Much as I can be a traindog-holic, I like to give them a break once every 4 or 5 days. It does great stuff for their attitude.


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

john fallon said:


> 1) Explain to us in detail how Indirect Pressure works.
> 
> john


Hopefully I am not intruding on a private discussion, but when I think of indirect pressure, I am reminded of the story of Farmer John who sold his trained mule to Farmer Ted with assurances that the mule knew the four commands necessary for a good plow mule, “get up”, “gee”. “haw” and “whoa”. The next day after purchasing the mule Farmer Ted harnessed the mule to the plow, snapped the reins and commanded, “get up”. The mule did not move. Farmer Ted repeatedly tried to get the mule moving with “get up”, “gee” “haw” but nothing worked. Finally Farmer Ted had had enough so he went to the house, cranked up the telephone and called Farmer John and demanded Farmer John take the mule back and refund his money. Farmer John was surprised and offered to come right over to see what was wrong. When Farmer John arrived, Farmer Ted demonstrated that the mule would not respond to any command and just stood there. 

Farmer John immediately recognized the problem. He walked back to his pickup, reached in the bed and grabbed a hickory ax handle. He walked over to the mule and clobbered the mule squarely between the eyes. Farmer John then walked around behind the plow, picked up the reins and commanded, “get up” and the mule moved forward smartly. Farmer John maneuvered the mule about with “gee”, “haw”, “get up” and “whoa” finally directing the mule to where Farmer Ted was standing, handed him the reins and said, “You see the mule is very well trained. You just needed to get the mule’s attention.”

Please folks, don’t go hit your dog with an ax handle or anything else. Indirect collar pressure is simply a way to get a dog’s attention, to get the dog to focus on the next command you are about to give. When the dog is running away from the handler there is always a good chance that the dog will get an unintended message from collar pressure. However, when the pressure is applied with the dog looking at the handler and in conjunction with a clear, known command like “sit” or “here” the focus and attention is obtained with very little risk of sending a incorrect message.

I have know a pro or two who routinely worked each dog over with a prod before going to the line for training. This is an extreme form of indirect pressure that I certainly would not recommend, and in fact too much pressure indirect or otherwise can have a result opposite of what is desired, but the intent is the same; to get the dog's attention.

No doubt I will get a number of people who disagree with my primes, but I will bet that none have ever plowed with a mule before so what do they know.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

> well, this is a forum, not a fr*ggin court room





Pete said:


> Did some one find a hunk of coal in their stocking this morning.


That was supposed to be funny.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

John and /Paul, it's a stalemate. Please take it private from here forward.

Thanks.

I hope Christmas was a wonderful day for all.

I do not think that trying to drive folks away was what brother Terry had in mind when he started this thread.

Chris


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Merry Christmas to all RTF'ers! Chris


Except to those who don't believe in Christmas, UB posted your greeting.

Merry Christmas to you, Chris.

As many of you know, it's easy when you have someone's competitive record to know whether their breath will melt snow or whether they are  with their advice.

I find this thread interesting - though off kilter at times. One of the main issues I see with exchanging advice is the different base of knowledge & terminology. The only prerequisite to participating on this forum is the ability to sign up, sign in & post. Zero dog knowledge level can post as well as the trainer handlers of National Champions. So you get what you get & if you're interested in the subject, Caveat Emptor.

But I'll leave with some thoughts - Chris could establish forums that required a certain skill level (prerequisitives) to post & reply, everyone else would be lurkers. Not sure he'd want to do that. Sort of like my Grandma told me, little boys are to be seen & not heard. 

Not everyone is a wordsmith, if you want to be understood & your opinion respected, practice your skills of communication. 

But for a few of the posters Chris should establish an options market where we could buy posters for what their advice was worth & peddle it for what the poster thought it to be worth. There could be a rating system similar to a poll where advice would be rated by the knowledgeable. With a sideways stock market that might generate some real interest.

MERRY CHRISTMAS & A SUCCESSFUL NEW YEAR TO ONE & ALL!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You seem to be at odds with Mike Lardy here.
> 
> I don't want you to over analyze it /Paul but you should at least know what is going on
> 
> ...


Nope. I'm not. Lardy doesn't use a collar for everything.  PM me, I'll gladly share information from my notes if you like...

/Paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I have an idea...

How about if folks post and address each other as they themselves would like to be addressed?

It really can be that simple.

Chris


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Quote:
> well, this is a forum, not a fr*ggin court room
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Pete*
> ...


Oh 
I need to see little smilely faces when that happens



I can't help it ,,,its genetic.

Pete
Jim ,,,a very nice post to Johns challange.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Jim Pickering said:


> but I will bet that none have ever plowed with a mule before so what do they know.


Jim - I have plowed with horses & know mules to be quite intelligent, but will not extend themselves beyond their capabilities regardless of what happens. I doubt if you will find many who have plowed with any animals. We actually had a farmer my Grandpa knew who farmed with goats, ever eaten goat meat? Unless you get it down quickly, it swells like bentonite.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> How about if folks post and address each other as they themselves would like to be addressed?


Chris...you are HOT!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Indirect collar pressure is simply a way to get a dog’s attention, to get the dog to focus on the next command you are about to give


 
Jim,

I heard it said of Indirect Pressure that" it is hard to explain but it works."
Now you and I both know that it does not just work out of happenstance, and there must be some psychology behind it.

At this point in time I would like to unravel that mystery

Ive heard that mule story before, modified ever so slightly to fit some other topic.

john


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Judy Chute said:


> .."I was wondering how people on this forum worked their dogs today- Christmas. I just finished three handling into the water drills with .."
> 
> Our water is frozen
> 
> ...


I did 5 hand line/cast drill today over the snow berms. Was pretty tight!


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> I did 5 hand line/cast drill today over the snow berms. Was pretty tight!


 
I did single "retrieves" with the doggies today....single piece of turkey, single bit of dressing, single little piece of cookie!! LOL  Best "singles" they have done in their lives.....straight lines, immediate pick up and quick return to get ready for next "retrieve". Gotta work on the "delivery to hand" though...there was nothing to deliver!! hehehehehehehe


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I'll just make some obsevations John

If your dog takes the wrong cast which most likely would be considered as disobedience,,,lets call it an "over cast ",,,,, and you cast/nick in the field quite often you get a dog that will slow down,or drive back, or sit down,or maby even quit. These responses can occure depending how he was conditioned and his temperament.

One would think that initially forcing in yard work would carry over into the field at hundreds of yardsaway. I personally do( -p I call it force) on overs in the yard so take this in light of that.

So direct pressure would be casting coupled with a nick right?
SO how do most dogs respond to that. As I stated above. Why doesn't it work well when compared to sit /nick or here nick when simple obedience is required.

However what happens when you say sit nick... The dog quickly sits and still has a good attitude. or here/nick Whats going on inside the head of the dog

Why is there an attiude difference in sit /nick compared to casting/nick unless its a back cast but we are talking taking an over cast here.

Sure we know that the dogs been forced back to a pile but what about dogs that have been forced over to a pile. Why is there such a difference in response. They are both obedience trained and conditioned behaviors.

I will give you a few reasons why direct force at 200 yrds usually doesn't work as well.

We have mostly conditioned a dog to drive back with direct pressure
We have mostly used sit with direct pressure sit/nick or sit/constant
We have communicated "NO" with direct pressure a response that often is a shut off command or unwanted behavior command (avoidance) 
These have occured so long in a dogs life that they become conditioned

Here's something to think about,,,if the canine brain is shut off with corrections why do they work to turn on behaviors also
sit/nick down/nick here/nick so on and so forth

OK back to indirect pressure

So when we are trying to to communicate to a dog to take an over cast off the point and continue over why do they turn back and get hung up on the point. Why will they not obey the command.?
Well first they are doing the natural thing and must be conditioned to get off the point. Suction lets call it. But how do we start the communication process?

Our direct pressure methods are not working? why ? In theory they should. 
After all They have been conditioned to it..

My observation is this: 
The dog has been trained to stay in the water,,,get out of the water,,,,hit that brush,,, ,miss that brush,,,, angle in,,,square in,cut the corner,,,,don't cut the corner,,,trained responses up the ying yang. They have been conditioned to sit with direct pressure,,turn off with direct pressure go back with direct pressure
And now when we try to use it to get off the point and over in the water direct pressure usually causes the dog to give us an undesireable response ,it can confuse the dog and causes it to repond in different ways.

So instead of confusing the dog with direct pressure in these circumstances we illimnate room for confusion.

When the dog does not cast off the point we blow the whisle (indirect) we cast and again and we get a refusal. it is a sit again. We did not get the proper cast but we did get a proper attitude toward the pressure of indirectness. Now the dog is thinking. The whisle in that context starts to becomes a "NO" because it shuts off the behavior of wanting to spin around and stay on the point. I will repeat that so people don't read over it. The NO or sit whistle in that context now is preventing the dog to spin and stay on the point. So now because dogs are contexual a meta morpisis starts to happen with our conditioned responses. The dog now is learning that being stopped with multiple whistles in that context mearly doesn't mean sit ,,but also "NO" And the dogs choices of conditioned behaviors start to broaden

Now casting becomes a communication and not merly an obedience induced command
Remember what can happen with direct force with casting
cast/nick cast/force can equal confusion ,,,there is just to much going on in the little brain of the dog. So clarifying what we want becomes more difficult.

Buy using the indirect force we have not only simplified but also cleared the mind of the dog so he can think. After a while a sit whistle is often all that is needed because of the conditioning. And so when we blow it the dog recognises what his job is and that is to cast off the point and in many cases the dog will carry on this behavior without a whistle . he will get up and off on his own. That now becomes his job in that context as long as he recognizes it as so. Don't forget a point doesn't look like a point to a dog when he is swimming at eye level in the water.
Because through indirect pressure and positive punishment(attrition)
we have developed a new communication skill.

OK thats a crack at it anyway John
Ill go get my bite suit chomp away
Pete


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Punishment works best when followed by a behaviour that is acceptable and reinforced. Dogs feel relief as well. 

Two poor/incorrect responses create bad habits - back to further education. Three incorrect responses/ nagging - ask a training partner to kick you HARD!!! 

KISS Aussie.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Aussie said:


> Three incorrect responses/ nagging - ask a training partner to kick you HARD!!!
> 
> KISS Aussie.


You have to ask? ;-)


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

OK Pete, let me see if I understand.



> So instead of confusing the dog with direct pressure in these circumstances we eliminate room for confusion.
> 
> When the dog does not cast off the point we blow the (sit/no)whistle (indirect) we cast and again and we get a refusal. it is a sit again. We did not get the proper cast but we did get a proper attitude toward the pressure of indirectness. Now the dog is thinking. The whistle in that context starts to becomes a "NO" because it shuts off the behavior of wanting to spin around and stay on the point. I will repeat that so people don't read over it. The NO or sit whistle in that context now is preventing the dog to spin and stay on the point. So now because dogs are contextual a metamorphosis starts to happen with our conditioned responses. The dog now is learning that being stopped with multiple whistles in that context mealy doesn't mean sit ,,but also "NO" And the dogs choices of conditioned behaviors start to broaden
> 
> Now casting becomes a communication and not merely an obedience induced command


You are saying that the sit/no, whistle in that context, becomes indirect pressure ??????????
This of course would have been taught on land to minimise a possible water attitude problem. *Am I understanding you so far.*

Could not one then add a nick(as in whistle sit nick).. so the (sit/no) whistle would then, absent the nick in a trial (also?)become a Secondary Reinforcement.?

I want to go back and re-read your entire post and will be back with a few more questions or comments.

Despite whether one agrees or disagrees with the content yours was a well thought out post.

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Aussie said:


> Punishment works best when followed by a behaviour that is acceptable *and reinforced*. Dogs feel relief as well.
> 
> 
> 
> KISS Aussie.


Reinforced...............

Is this not a good application for the "tone" function on the collar ?

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Yes John
I believe you took what I wrote correctly.

I have never heard the term secondary re inforcement so forgive me on not knowing all the terminology. But yes in a trial in certain contexts a sit whistle translates "NO" even when the dog sits to the whistle.

I did this once in a trial or test I can't remember what it was,,,,,because I did't trust the dog to get off the point with the initial cast. I was accused of training and of coarse one coulds make a case for that,,,but I was also training when I said ,back and when I gave the next cast and the next cast which are all forms of communication now in a seasoned dogs mind. So my double whistle was training but it was also communicating. I could have waited 2 seconds before blowing the next whistle but I would have been in trouble by then.

Yes 
I personally start teaching everything on land and this in perticular can be taught by caasting up close through cover or some other form of deturant.
Then you can move it to putting up obsticals(jumps) on your T pattern or whatever.There are probably thousands of different ways to create the learning scenerio.
Anyone can make their own training coarse for this. But it is an introduction to things they must eventually do from far away. So learning new communication skills up close is where you start.

Also I definately use a nick or an out right burn on sit after they have proven to me they understand the lesson.

But that was my stab at my explanation of why indirect pressure and "secondary re0inforcement "works in many circumstances compared to direct.
Don't forget we also have positive punishment taking place in the same context.
I have forgotton my terminology but I thing PP is withhold that which the dog see's as good or taking back the good
Which in this case is movement toward satisfying his goal,,,and his prey drive by getting his prey object in his mouth.
EX. Stop dog ,,,call dog back in to the infraction area,,,,resend ,,,,repeat as neccessary untill the dog takes the desired cast.

Dog then learns the desired behavior,,,,just like obedience trainers do to get that perfect sit or heel.
Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RTF is an interesting forum relative to several others I have posted on in the last eight years.

It seems that while there are a lot of people here with expertise in training retrievers using a very wide array of methods and styles, people here are not likley to be open to another person's method, philosophy or opinion on how things ought to be done, UNLESS that person is a pillar of the retriever training community. It seems that you know nothing until you have a lot of wins under your belt, dogs on your truck or books to your credit. 

Yet, I routinely see successful, lesser known trainers making up or customizing methods, seemingly out of the blue to address certain issues with certain dogs. I see these things first hand, in real life, not on a message board so I know that...

Every piece of training information has the potential to be a nugget of gold.

People also seem to think that their advice is the only good advice, and that they are beyond reproach when offering it up. There's a ton of "my way or the highway" running through the "meaty" threads on here at times. 

The bottom line though, is that some people see the social value in participation on a message board and have thick enough skin to be happy in doing so. Other's simply don't.

Around here, you will have very thick skin or you will not post much.

That applies to most message boards but it is especially true of rtf.

Veteran of over 15,000 posts in 8 years, regards,


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pete, This is Secondary Negative Reinforcement, there is also Secondary Positive.................



> The Principle of Secondary Negative Reinforcement is typically
> studied in the context of AVOIDANCE CONDITIONING, in which the organism
> learns to emit a response that prevents the occurrence of some aversive
> event such as *an electric shock*.


So you can see where the* whistle* followed most often by a nick in certain context would, in that context, become a reinrorcer.

john
john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks John
I get it. It helps to hear other forms of explanations on a certain subject.
It also often solidifys a perception or thinking process.

So the sit /whistle would be the secondary neg re-inforcer or the sit whistle /nick and the come in whistle sit to where the infraction took place can spill into the secondary PP re -inforcer.
I don't know if there is a contradiction there or not,,,, because before you can have the PP re-inforcer you have a secondary neg re-inforcement.
Am I thinking correctly here

The reason why I say this is because even if there is no sit/nick ,,,only a sit the dogs already percieving the secondary neg re-inforcement and does that negate the secondary Positive re-inforcer.

Now I know why Mike Lardy stated you jump in and out of this so fast its not worth bringing it up.

But its still fun when your stuck with a room full of dogs to keep track of so they don't disconect the internet on me.,,,,to break things down in its terminology.

Thanks John

Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm not following you on the come in whistle being positive. the come in whistle, a part of attrition would be an aversive in that situation, would it not.

And yes in *that context* the sit whistle would be a secondary neg. reinforcrer. 
Being the situational learners that they are, Other sit whistles, otherwise conditioned, would have there own situationally desired effect.

"not worth bringing up"?????????????????????
I for one think that before one puts a collar on a dog they should have some idea of* why* things work


john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

John
The positive punhment in my mind is the attrition. The dog doesn't cast properly so he is recalled to the spot of the infraction. Until he gets the cast correctly in which case he gets to progresses toward his desired goal
while he is enroute to the bird his drive persuades him to satisfy his goal. Which is bird in mouth.
Maby I'm over thinking but maby there is something extremely subtle in that context that fits.
Anyway it doesn't matter.

My computer got hijacked this morning from another entity in Texas. It crashed last week or so and the wife hobbled it back together then she had her brother fix it from his place.Thats a cosmic feat to me. 
hE MAY NOT BE bILL gATES OR THE OTHER APPLE GUYS BUT HE IS AN EXPERT TO ME. 
God I had to throw that in ,,,,I couldn't resist,,,sorry

Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Operant Conditioning.
> Something Good can start or be presented, so behavior increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)
> 
> Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment (P-)
> ...





> The Principle of *Secondary Negative Reinforcement* is typically
> studied in the context of AVOIDANCE CONDITIONING, in which the organism
> learns to emit a response that prevents the occurrence of some aversive
> event such as *an electric shock*.


I think it comes down to semantics, as you can see by the two highlighted definitions.

Wouldn't what you articulated be P- or Negative Punishment as in something good(the retrieve) is being taken away

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I got definitions here in front of me and I had them twisted up,,,,,,
As usual John your right




The come in whistle isn't positive but the denial of that which is good,and expected might be,,,only I found a slight flaw in that



I've decided scrap the NP theory,,,,my bad:razz:

Pete


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Buzz said:


> You have to ask? ;-)


Being a self flagelator, I normally beat them.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

> Operant Conditioning.
> Something Good can start or be presented, so behavior increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)
> 
> Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment (P-)
> ...





> The Principle of *Secondary Negative Reinforcement* is typically studied in the context of AVOIDANCE CONDITIONING, in which the organism
> learns to emit a response that prevents the occurrence of some aversive event such as *an electric shock*.


Thank GOD Rex doesn't have to read all this. He would be writhing in his grave...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> Thank GOD Rex doesn't have to read all this. He would be writhing in his grave...


Amen!

Evan


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *zipmarc*  
_Thank GOD Rex doesn't have to read all this. He would be writhing in his grave..._

Amen!

Evan Today 08:28 PMzipmarcQuote:
Operant Conditioning. 
Something Good can start or be presented, so behavior increases = Positive Reinforcement (R+)

Something Good can end or be taken away, so behavior decreases = Negative Punishment (P-)

Something Bad can start or be presented, so behavior decreases = Positive Punishment (P+)

Something Bad can end or be taken away, so behavior increases* = Negative Reinforcement (R-)* 
Quote:
The Principle of *Secondary Negative Reinforcement* is typically studied in the context of AVOIDANCE CONDITIONING, in which the organism
learns to emit a response that prevents the occurrence of some aversive event such as *an electric shock*. 
Thank GOD Rex doesn't have to read all this. He would be writhing in his grave... Today 11:44 AM


Maby so,,,but in reality it has its importance,,,especially in a class setting. It also has answeres to why dogs do what they do and when.
But for many its stupid. And it certainly does have its stupid applications,,,such as when your out in the field training.

but it also has its importance. especially when your applying it to the learning process of the dog. It can often answere why. 

When you hear someone say they don't know why it works,,,,you can be confident and say "sure you do".
"Why" can be an important answere. To some anyway

Pete


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

this thread is a perfect example of why some trainers are driven away...stop the madness someone


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2008)

We all really need to chip in so we can send John south for the winter.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> Thank GOD* Rex* doesn't have to read all this. He would be writhing in his grave...


Don't even go there.

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I think John has done a very nice job here. He has been curtious and insightfull. Not the time to chase him away
Just bein silly here I think this thread has turned out pretty civil and I learned stuff too. I enjoy thinking about the heavier stuff sometimes. I think it helps all levels see something new. I for one have to continue to look for new stuff to try and practically apply or I get bored and if I get bored I sit around eating bon bons and watching Opra. Not good for my waistline.

Pete


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2008)

I also think we should all chip in and get Pete spell check. ;-):razz::razz:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pete said:


> I think John has done a very nice job here. He has been curtious and insightfull. Not the time to chase him away
> 
> Pete



Really? Hold on while I puke....

Knowledge is worthless without the wisdom to implement it. John has a ton of knowledge.

/Paul


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

Holy Crap! 

My head is about to explode!! All these symbols from the Periodic Table has me spinning! Where the heck is the 3rd element?

Now I'm off to the Down the Shore Thread, then I think I'll revisit how aluminum and SS react when touching each other. 

AT LEAST I UNDERSTAND THAT PHYSICS IS ABSOLUTE SCIENCE.

I think a puppy class at Pet Smart may be in order before I revisit this thread, (Dead Serious).


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Evan said:


> > Originally Posted by *zipmarc*
> > _Thank GOD* Rex* doesn't have to read all this. He would be writhing in his grave_
> 
> 
> ...


 


_Amen *?????????????? *_

Could you expand on your rational for the *validation *of what in my view is such a ludicrous statement. 

I mean by that is her depiction of "Rex" as a closed mined egotist valid. 

My impression of him, albet from afar, is that he, if still alive, could have very easly been the one to have authored this post.http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34317

john


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Evan*
> 
> 
> > _Originally Posted by *zipmarc*
> ...





john fallon said:


> _Amen *?????????????? *_
> 
> Could you expand on your rational for the *validation *of what in my view is such a ludicrous statement.
> 
> ...


Indeed, John, by your statement you have demonstrated to me that your "impression "of Rex is more than "albeit from afar". It is from outer space. 

Not to mention that your PM to me evidenced your prejudices, which were formed, apparently, from secondhand prejudices expressed by others. Now finally by your own doing, I've got you pegged. Sadly for you.

I second Melanie Foster's suggestion.

"Training is not science, it is art. A blend of this, a measure of that, a deep breath at the appropriate moment and always a loving touch." Quote used by Vicky Trainor.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> But to save you time I'll leave you with a great definition of indirect pressure from our good friend Jerry....
> 
> 
> /Paul


 
Somehow or other I haven't seen this analagy (sp) from Jerry before on indirect pressure. 

It explains this very well and is a good way of envisioning what people are talking about.

Thank you for posting it /Paul


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> We all really need to chip in so we can send John south for the winter.


No...what you need to do is keep your word and post those pictures of you in the tight t-shirt you had on the other evening.

Not sure what is worse...John's ranting or your lack of follow through.



waiting regards


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> Indeed, John, by your statement you have demonstrated to me that your "impression "of Rex is more than "albeit from afar". It is from outer space.
> 
> Not to mention that your PM to me evidenced your prejudices, *which were formed, apparently, from secondhand prejudices expressed by others*. Now finally by your own doing, I've got you pegged. Sadly for you.
> 
> ...


You were there, I was not. So tell me straight up. What was the success rate at CL. By that I mean what percent of the dog that were trained under his tutelage remained *stylish* and became FC's, AFC's or both ?

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

QUOTE

"Training is not science, it is art. A blend of this, a measure of that, a deep breath at the appropriate moment and always a loving touch." Quote used by Vicky Trainor[/QUOTE]


"Training is science and becomes an art as its practically applied"

Quote made up by Pete


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> _Amen *?????????????? *_
> 
> Could you expand on your rational for the *validation *of what in my view is such a ludicrous statement.
> 
> ...


John,

If an out of control ego has been allowed to run amuck here, it must surely be the monumental stretch of connecting Dennis’ excellent post to the blather _you’ve_ been posting. It’s fine with me if you want to wander around the ideological landscape with this “art”/”science” philosopher-at-large mumbo jumbo. 

But some of us were privileged to know Rex. He was certainly pragmatic when it came down to developing a dog, as well as philosophical and even scientific about developing methods. It’s easy to imagine Rex at least readily nodding agreement with what Dennis wrote, which is a logical and coherent essay. But it’s impossible for me to imagine him sitting through your loosely connected hyperbole, much less participating in it.

My voicing “Amen” to Mimi’s post was a reflection of personal restraint, not excess. I’m sure you’re still as lost about this as before, but you asked. By all means, carry on.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Evan said:


> John,
> 
> If an out of control ego has been allowed to run amuck here, it must surely be the monumental stretch of connecting Dennis’ excellent post to the blather _you’ve_ been posting. It’s fine with me if you want to wander around the ideological landscape with this “art”/”science” philosopher-at-large mumbo jumbo.
> 
> ...


The out of controlled ego in my view resides elsewhere.

One place that it surely resides is with those whose paramount claim to fame is that they once shook the hand of the man who shook the hand of.....................

"Did he meet the man
Did he shake his hand
Then let me shake the hand that shook the hand that shook the hand
Of John L. Sullivan"


john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> The out of controlled ego in my view resides elsewhere.
> 
> john


Of course it does, John. Point well missed.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Evan said:


> Of course it does, John. Point well missed.
> 
> Evan


If you say so, I hope you didn't miss mine ;-)


john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

why do I hear the voice of Pee Wee Herman when I read these posts?
"I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I"


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Good Lowered!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> why do I hear the voice of Pee Wee Herman


Are you at a movie theater and waring a trench coat?

john


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