# No linebreeding



## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Hi am New to the Forum. I have had GSPS for aprox 12 yrs. I live in central Florida and like the drive and enthusiasm of the field bred Dogs. I was researching pedigrees and have yet to find a BREEDER who has a line of dogs he/she has cultivated. It seems the trend is to take a titled individual who is a outcross himself and breed to a bitch who has no titles and is a outcross and market the pups. I am not being critical just wondering as I have had dogs since I was 4 and I am 50 now. The top GSP breeders in the nation most linebreed. They might take a Linebred individual and outcross to another linebered individual, which is a outcross but a different approach than breeding a scatter bred x scatter bred. Are there any field lab breeders who use solid linebreeding and have developed a solid performance line of labs?


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

For the most part, no. Field labs are primarily outcrosses within a small box. By that I mean that if you look, there are numerous popular sires that appear numerous times in most pedigrees, but few if any breeders have a long-term plan of line-breeding and while you will hear people speak of particular "lines", they aren't using that term in the way that pointer or livestock people would. Many if not most breedings are a good bitch to a popular dog (usually popular based on performance only, sometimes taking progeny performance into account). Definition of "good bitch" varies. Just my observation.


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Thanks for the reply Matt. Nice looking Avatar Dog! That is what I have found, but it is strange as the Linebreeding techniques work. The litters I have looked at I have not found a single related individual in 3-4 generations. I got my last gsp who is just 9months now from Kansas it is the 2nd GSP from him. He has bred GSPS for over 30 years, linebreeds and knows genetics. He says Genes don't blend they clump and only on occasion goes outside of his line to bring some vigor or particular trait back. FREEZELAND I am curious who these breeders you speak of are can you elaborate?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

There are not many litters I have seen without lean Mac somewhere on top and bottom. I just bought two pups from unrelated litters, both are line breeding of code blue.


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Thanks, I think you are referring to what Matt stated above.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

kumate said:


> Thanks, I think you are referring to what Matt stated above.


No that's not what I am referring to.


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

What kennels are you referring to who have a successful line breeding program? I asked the question " Are there any field lab breeders who use solid line breeding and have developed a solid performance line of labs? " Your vague response reinforces the fact you are not aware of any


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

My code blue line bred dogs are not from established kennels. But they are intentional line breeding on code blue. Try looking at candlewood retrievers. I can't attest to the fact that there is an established line breeding program, but would be surprised if there is not at least on some of the dogs from it.


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Thanks, I understand now what you are referring to. I was planning on contacting Candlewood


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

Mary Howley @ Candlewood is one that comes to mind that did some line breeding. There were health issues in retrievers years ago, basically hips and out breeding had to be done to clear up the problem. Unlike bird dog breeders, retriever breeders don't cull. Also retriever that are so called well bred sell for more money than most bird dogs. Since the invention of hunt tests some have figured out if we put Jr. on Molly we can breed her to an FC and demand 1,000.00-2,000.00 or more for our puppies. Unfortunatly it works. Quality lines out the window. There are breeders that try to match a stud to their bitch to produce quality pups but there is no guarantee the traits they want passed down will be.It's still a crap shoot. Personally I'll spend the money and hope those traits were passed along.


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Thanks that was my assessment also. A outcross to outcross is not a breeding I want a pup out of. My Gsp breeder has bred more owner handled Navhda VC's then anyone or really close. He knows the lineage and what traits they throw inside and out. Breeding is as you say a crap shoot but at least narrow the possibilities.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Thanks that was my assessment also. A outcross to outcross is not a breeding I want a pup out of. My Gsp breeder has bred more owner handled Navhda VC's then anyone or really close. He knows the lineage and what traits they throw inside and out. Breeding is as you say a crap shoot but at least narrow the possibilities.


NAVHDA tests against a standard ,,no? Explain the hoopla . I can produce MH after MH with the majority of puppies Ive bred. Weather they were line bred or not. 
Certainly not bragging cause that isn't to hard to if you put 2 half decent retrievers together.
You may be comparing bannana's to mellons

Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

One has to remember that a retriever has a lot of behaviors trained in where a pointer is much more oriented toward it's natural ability.


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Hi Pete yes Navdha tests against a standard. I started the thread because I like the intensity I have seen in some labs that were of field lineage. When I started looking at breedings, out of 4 or 5 breedings none of them had any related individuals in their pedigree going back 4 generations. This was a big surprise to me as I have had German import Rottweilers and Dobermans as well as American Pitbull terriers and all have been from breeders who used linebreeding extensively to establish a line of dogs. line breeding amplifies the good as well as bringing out undesirable traits, A SELECTIVELY linebred animal has a greater chance of reproducing his/herself than his scatterbred counterpart. I agree you probably could take 2 mediocre labs and train the offspring to master hunter, This says more about the trainer than the quality of the animal. The first person who responded was unfortunately correct, that the majority of people put a entry level title on their dog and then breed to a titled male and sell the pups because he can. Obviously there will be some good pups that hit the ground but because the method is breeding 2 scatterbred individuals the chances will be reduced. Here is one of many articles on linebreeding http://www.topsfieldbassets.com/breederstoolbox/lets_talk_linebreeding.htm
Here is another link to my GSP breeder on Motherlines and their importance line breeding and inbreeding coefficient it is a pretty good read
http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Kumate
I meant half decent in a good way,,, meaning strong field trial pedigree and both parents mentally sound. But not necessarily fc xfc breeding's. Most people I know have one or 2 of the same dogs in a 4 generation pedigree. I do also. I realize line breeding works to strengthen genes and weaken genes. You may not want to buy a pup from an entry level dog simply because the dog has not been tested to the maximum. You probably would do well to get a pup from nice working bitches which are qaa or pass a high percent of their master tests which also sport a stacked pedigree. 

Pete


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

You will also find a cultural bias against linebreeding in the lab community. Many if not most people who buy field labs would be wary of a closely linebred litter due to the perception that somehow tight breeding causes problems. Images of mentally challenged hillbillies come to mind. Hence, even if someone were to attempt to develop a true "line" of labs, the market may not support him. One man's opinion.

p.s. my apologies to any mentally challenged hillbillies that may have been offended by my example.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

kumate said:


> Hi am New to the Forum. I have had GSPS for aprox 12 yrs. I live in central Florida and like the drive and enthusiasm of the field bred Dogs. I was researching pedigrees and have yet to find a BREEDER who has a line of dogs he/she has cultivated. It seems the trend is to take a titled individual who is a outcross himself and breed to a bitch who has no titles and is a outcross and market the pups. I am not being critical just wondering as I have had dogs since I was 4 and I am 50 now. The top GSP breeders in the nation most linebreed. They might take a Linebred individual and outcross to another linebered individual, which is a outcross but a different approach than breeding a scatter bred x scatter bred. Are there any field lab breeders who use solid linebreeding and have developed a solid performance line of labs?


If it ain't broke.......I would opine that current breeding programs are producing extremely talented retrievers. 

Field trials present a objective scale to measure high level performance. The number of AKC registered labs approaches a million and thousands compete regularly in field trials. While some breeders may not understand the ramifications of an individual breeding, the buyers that have done their research know the strengths and weaknesses of individual dogs and how various combinations have produced. Some highly accomplished field trial dogs have not produced well while some untitled dogs have produced many FCs. There are plenty of breedings available to find the type of dog one wants. 

If you want to see the success of the U.S. retriever breeding program, go to a local field trial and watch the dogs work. If you are not amazed at the quality of work, you will be once you start training your own dog and out how much there is to it.

As mentioned previously, it is not hard to find a lab with the genetic makeup to become a MH. This is a better trained dog than what over 90% of hunters use in the field.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

kumate said:


> Hi Pete yes Navdha tests against a standard. I started the thread because I like the intensity I have seen in some labs that were of field lineage. When I started looking at breedings, out of 4 or 5 breedings *none of them had any related individuals in their pedigree going back 4 generations*. This was a big surprise to me as I have had German import Rottweilers and Dobermans as well as American Pitbull terriers and all have been from breeders who used linebreeding extensively to establish a line of dogs. line breeding amplifies the good as well as bringing out undesirable traits, A SELECTIVELY linebred animal has a greater chance of reproducing his/herself than his scatterbred counterpart. I agree you probably could take 2 mediocre labs and train the offspring to master hunter, This says more about the trainer than the quality of the animal. The first person who responded was unfortunately correct, that the majority of people put a entry level title on their dog and then breed to a titled male and sell the pups because he can. Obviously there will be some good pups that hit the ground but because the method is breeding 2 scatterbred individuals the chances will be reduced. Here is one of many articles on linebreeding http://www.topsfieldbassets.com/breederstoolbox/lets_talk_linebreeding.htm
> Here is another link to my GSP breeder on Motherlines and their importance line breeding and inbreeding coefficient it is a pretty good read
> http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm


kumate,

I planned a breeding between two dogs that shared no common ancestors in the first five generations. However, if you looked back another five generations there were many shared ancestors in generations 6 - 10. So, just because it appears to be a total outcross x outcross breeding, that may not necessarily be the case.

Do a little research into population genetics, assortative mating, and "The Popular Sire Syndrome". You may find there are good reasons some breeders shy away from close linebreeding.

Swack

P.S. Matt McKinnzie, 

Thanks for the apology! I was almost smart enough to be offended!


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Swack said:


> kumate,
> 
> I planned a breeding between two dogs that shared no common ancestors in the first five generations. However, if you looked back another five generations there were many shared ancestors in generations 6 - 10. So, just because it appears to be a total outcross x outcross breeding, that may not necessarily be the case.
> 
> ...


Swack all of the literature that I have read concur, that if a individual is present on both sides of the pedigree but past the 3rd or 4th generation it has little effect and not even considered linebreeding let alone close linebreeding. I am familiar with the popular sire theory and don't buy into it.. Here is a article about it and its not a good thing http://pedigreegoddess.com/PedigreeTheory/MarketBreeding.html


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

When I read the original post, Candlewood came to mind. Mary Howley is a breeder; she does not train, she does not handle. She has been breeding Labs for years. I have not studied her breedings so I don't know if she has stuck to her own stock for a sire or went outside. The bitches are Candlewood and they keep the kennel name going. Whether the litters are linebred or not, I don't know. I don't study Candlewood pedigrees. 

Helen


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

Mike Gould, Grandriver line is the only one I know of, just real all around hunting Labs ( Learned quite a bit from R Wehle I believe) .


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

helencalif said:


> When I read the original post, Candlewood came to mind. Mary Howley is a breeder; she does not train, she does not handle. She has been breeding Labs for years. I have not studied her breedings so I don't know if she has stuck to her own stock for a sire or went outside. The bitches are Candlewood and they keep the kennel name going. Whether the litters are linebred or not, I don't know. I don't study Candlewood pedigrees.
> 
> Helen


That is not really true. Mary used to train, Mary used to handle.
I don't know if she does anymore.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

There are bunch of these dogs that I would not linebreed.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Kumate, I was in NAVHDA in the mid 70s.Ran and bred GSP. I owned an Esser's Chick grandson. If you look at the winningest GSP trial dogs were primarily outcross breeding.Greif/Wasserschling.Greif/Moesgaard,etc.You cannot compare NAVHDA to field trials. Even English Pointers not so much line bred outside Wehle's Elhew kennels. Breeding to type and lines that nick gives consistancy and reliability on a breeding program today.

Jeff


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses Drakehaven agreed some individuals shouldn't be line bred only the specimens that have the traits you are looking for within the line. Labs for me your avatar dog is Purdy! Gary Hutchison from westwindgsps from Kansas has developed a line from just the dogs you mentioned. He rarely goes to outside sires and never Breeds to the latest fad for a title.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

dogguy438 said:


> Mary Howley @ Candlewood is one that comes to mind that did some line breeding. There were health issues in retrievers years ago, basically hips and out breeding had to be done to clear up the problem. Unlike bird dog breeders, retriever breeders don't cull. Also retriever that are so called well bred sell for more money than most bird dogs. Since the invention of hunt tests some have figured out if we put Jr. on Molly we can breed her to an FC and demand 1,000.00-2,000.00 or more for our puppies. Unfortunatly it works. Quality lines out the window. There are breeders that try to match a stud to their bitch to produce quality pups but there is no guarantee the traits they want passed down will be.It's still a crap shoot. Personally I'll spend the money and hope those traits were passed along.


Mary is the type of breeder you are looking for. A lot of the outcrosses you speak of were people breeding in to her lines (not her breeding in to theirs). She has probably forgotten more about lab bloodlines than the next top ten breeders ever knew. (As an aside, I met her for the first time at a qual yesterday, and she hasn't forgotten a thing, she was commenting to her friends how she thought many of the dogs would run best based on performance of their parents'. She would know). She's also very easy to deal with and can match you with the right breeding.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

cakaiser said:


> That is not really true. Mary used to train, Mary used to handle.
> I don't know if she does anymore.


Mary's blue Dodge van has plates that read "3XNFC". Granted, she didn't handle those, Mike did, but she's won her fair share.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> Mary's blue Dodge van has plates that read "3XNFC". Granted, she didn't handle those, Mike did, but she's won her fair share.


http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...enir-pic-for-the-photo-album&highlight=howley

Here's a nice memory of mine above. It shows Mary's vehicle, Mary and her license plate.

I am a Mary Howley fan.

Chris


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

I find this thread interesting. I'm not a retriever guy so I know nothing of who's breeding to whom. However in the spaniel world (both cockers and springers) linebreeding is quite common among established kennels. I know when I was looking for my guy I found the breeder I wanted and put down my deposit. When the time came he ended up having 2 litters within a month of each other with the same stud. I opted for the litter that was the result of a linebreeding as like the OP mentioned I felt it may give me a more predictable pup in terms of what he'd turn into. Would I only go for linebred dogs? Nope. Not really that important to me - a well bred dog is a well bred dog, regardless of common ancestors. However as I said, it did influence me on this particular breeding as the common dog on both sides was one I liked.


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## dogluvah (Apr 24, 2012)

This is interesting topic. It seems that heavy marketing of the "hot" sire of the moment is most prevalent in field Lab breedings. In contrast show Labs are much more likely to be linebred. I think that training vs heredity needs to be critically considered when evalulating a potential sire. You can't train in better conformation  Just as noted with pointing in GSPs, these factors must be bred in. Field Lab stud advertisements stress how young the dog was and how quickly he earned his titles. How much of that is extreme professional training combined with full on campaigning vs natural abilities? I see multiple litters from these popular field studs out of all kinds of bitches all over the country before there is even any determination that this latest greatest dog can pass on his best traits to his offspring, his name alone seems enough to sell the puppies. How different from GSP breeders or even English Lab breeders.


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

I particularly agree that there is a trend to breed the hot titled male to what may appear to be a mediocre bitch. I will admit I bought into that with my first field bred dog. I like Goldens and found the sire who seemed to be just what I wanted: FC/AFC OS OTCH FDHF, plus a large dog with a thick coat- good looking, more like a conformation dog. (Boomer) The dam was a Topbrass MH sired by an equally titled dog, Rugby, a skinny reddish Golden. I paid my deposit and bought my plane ticket to travel to Iowa from Texas. 

The pups hit the ground. Out of six pups, only two weren't definitely red and they were all skinny! We picked a pup from photos. We chose the lightest colored one with the relatively most meat on him. We made the trip and upon arrival the breeder told us that her kids decided that they wanted to keep the pup we chose. Reluctantly (and pissed) I took one of the skinny red males. 

All that to say this: I have seen lots of Boomer pups since then, but only one that looks like him. Great looking dog, but the last time I saw him, he was nearly 2 years old and struggling for a JH. The rest of the pups- skinny reds. 

As it turns out, pretty is as pretty does and I couldn't be happier with my skinny red dog- who I have finally got to fill out a bit. (See avatar.) Now I started looking to breed him and decided I wanted to try to duplicate or improve. 

I found a litter sired by a Boomer son (skinny and red) who lacks one point for an AFC and out of a Rugby daughter. Interestingly enough, the dam is a light yellow, but very small- 45 lbs and other than color much resembles Rugby. She is MH and QAA. My pup looks like a clone of her mother and is showing unbelievable early talent. 

Now to my point: my experience indicates that the female half of the genome may be more influential than the male. I have also seen some scientific articles supporting this position. 

This makes me wonder whether too much emphasis is being placed on the sire, and makes me curious as to others' thoughts and experiences. Comments?


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

This makes me wonder whether too much emphasis is being placed on the sire, and makes me curious as to others' thoughts and experiences. Comments? 

Because people are looking to buy a puppy from a "winner" with a lack of understanding of what makes a winner. 
People that buy their next hunting dog or HT/FT prospect as a whole do not understand breeding principles or how to analyze traits. The old saying is: you can not "breed up" a bad bitch.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

cakaiser said:


> That is not really true. Mary used to train, Mary used to handle.
> I don't know if she does anymore.


Mary was still actively campaigning dogs last year and I suspect she still is


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## Golden6824 (Mar 28, 2010)

Are you looking at the COI?


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

Golden6824 said:


> Are you looking at the COI?


I assume this was directed towards me. No, I haven't yet. That will certainly be a factor in deciding to breed them, but I in general liked the breeding so much that even if I didn't breed these two, I still wanted the puppy. Besides, I still have some other hurdles- I decided I wasn't going to breed unless both dogs had minimally achieved an HRCH, MH and QAA. My male has his HRCH and two master passes. In the Qual he has two JAMS, a reserve JAM and a 4th, so hopefully we are getting close. My girl has two JH passes, but hopefully we will get the other two at a hunt test in a couple of weeks. My boy will be running as well, but we skipped SH, so even if we get two more passes I won't be able to finish him until Fall, plus run some more Quals. Then, there's health clearances which I am not going to spend the money until we are farther down the path. So, with all this I haven't considered COI yet.


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## Golden6824 (Mar 28, 2010)

Actually, it was directed at the OP, is he looking just at the names in the first few generations, or is he looking at the numbers of the COI. For a thread on line breeding, I was surprised to see no mention of COI


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

mjh345 said:


> Mary was still actively campaigning dogs last year and I suspect she still is


Hey Mike what dog was she campaigning last year? No dog in the hunt just curious.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

TexGold said:


> Now to my point: my experience indicates that the female half of the genome may be more influential than the male. I have also seen some scientific articles supporting this position.
> 
> This makes me wonder whether too much emphasis is being placed on the sire, and makes me curious as to others' thoughts and experiences. Comments?


I kind of think this myself. My next dog I plan on putting more emphasis on the dam. Mind you I don't see a next dog in my future any time soon.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Cass said:


> I kind of think this myself. My next dog I plan on putting more emphasis on the dam. Mind you I don't see a next dog in my future any time soon.


Let's see I've been actively familiar with 4-7 litters, including my own; in the last 2-3 years; and have watched several lines for a long period of time, prior. 95% of the pups all take after the mom, in looks and attitude; I've only seen hints of the male; when you get multiple siblings from different breedings together; then it's only hints. Interestingly; I've seen more of the sire come out in his grand-pups, when one of his daughters produces a litter, than in the first generation. Might be where the you want a dog out of a Lean Mac bitch came from . So pick the female, then the male that balances her. One thing all my pups got from dad was an FT mentality of going long, nothing wrong with that; although teaching them brakes has been challenging, especially when you have to deal with mom's stubborn streak, which everyone definitely got .


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Let's see I've been actively familiar with 4-7 litters, including my own; in the last 2-3 years; and have watched several lines for a long period of time. *95% of the pups all take after the mom, in looks and attitude; I've only seen hints of the male; when you get multiple siblings from different breedings together; then it's only hints*. Interestingly; I've seen more of the sire come out in his grand-pups, when his one of his daughters produces a litter, than in the first generation. Might be where the you want a dog out of a Lean Mac bitch came from . So pick the female, then the male that balances her. One thing all my pups got from dad was an FT mentality of going long, nothing wrong with that; although teaching them brakes has been challenging .


Shouldn't it be 50-50? I have bred my male Golden quite a bit and I see 50-50 with some dogs, particularly males almost clones of my sire and others very much like the Dam. What I don't see much is that blending of traits that we are seeking when we breed two different dogs together.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Let's see I've been actively familiar with 4-7 litters, including my own; in the last 2-3 years; and have watched several lines for a long period of time, prior. 95% of the pups all take after the mom, in looks and attitude; I've only seen hints of the male; when you get multiple siblings from different breedings together; then it's only hints. Interestingly; I've seen more of the sire come out in his grand-pups, when one of his daughters produces a litter, than in the first generation. Might be where the you want a dog out of a Lean Mac bitch came from . So pick the female, then the male that balances her. One thing all my pups got from dad was an FT mentality of going long, nothing wrong with that; although teaching them brakes has been challenging, especially when you have to deal with mom's stubborn streak, which everyone definitely got .


I have noticed that as well - the pups take more after the mom in most respects. I find a couple studs that stamp their looks or personality on some of the pups or produce well but they are likely line bred and they have to be bred to the right girls. The line bred bitch to a stud from a different line or a non-line bred stud will result generally in pups that take after the mom for the most part. You can't take a mediocre bitch and breed it to a nice dog and expect to get a lot of nice pups. Breeding title to title is the wrong approach unless you really look hard at the pedigree and make sure it is a good match. I have done some field show crosses as well and they usually work best if the female is the field trial bred dog - obviously a total out cross. I do see the pups may take after the dad in some respects but mentally and ability wise they take more after the mom in most cases. If the bitch is not a good dog - she should not be bred at all is my opinion. I have done line breeding on my field trial girls but.. there comes a time when you have to introduce new blood. The other observation is - if you really want good results line breed on a top producing and not necessarily titled bitch. You can generally take a really nice line bred bitch and breed her to pretty much anything and you will get nice pups - or - maybe I have just been lucky that way. If you do out-cross it is a good idea to breed that resulting pup back into your lines again because the resulting pups will probably be wildcards. I probably don't know a darn thing - just an observation. I am sure there are people on this forum who know a whole lot more than I do.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

John Robinson said:


> Shouldn't it be 50-50? I have bred my male Golden quite a bit and I see 50-50 with some dogs, particularly males almost clones of my sire and others very much like the Dam. What I don't see much is that blending of traits that we are seeking when we breed two different dogs together.


Maybe it's breed specific, I only do labs, they seem to turn out like mom most of the time. Perhaps Goldens inherently have less variety in their gene pool, so the stud can have more of an impact. 



SPEED said:


> I have done some field show crosses as well and they usually work best if the female is the field trial bred dog - obviously a total out cross. .


I find this interesting; I too have seen a couple show-field crosses; when the female is the field bred dog, it seems to work much better in terms of performance skill than when the male is the field bred dog. As I have no clue what to look for in a show lab, I don't know if male or females tend to throw more show quality. From the crosses I've seen they all looked like performance labs, maybe a tad more bone; but generally the female (field bred) is pretty good looking, so who's to know where the looks actually came from .


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

When I was calling kennels, I spoke to a very well known kennel/lady who was going to make a breeding to a FC male and the female was a bitch that she got back from a field trailer that didn't cut it. I was really surprised but just listened. She went on to say that her trainer said the bitch wasn't that bad after all. This is a bitch that your are asking 2000 for pups. To the poster who asked about COI. The COI would most likely be low if there isn't a like individual in 4 generations. You could go farther I suppose, but most say the further you have to back the less effect it has. Good reading if you have time to spare http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm Good info on motherliness http://www.westwindgsps.com/motherlines.htm These are from my GSP breeders site. I haven't seen a single FT lab breeder who employs this philosophy. Most are breeding a High achieving male who is a outcross to a lower achieving bitch who is a outcross herself on a hunch.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

kumate said:


> When I was calling kennels, I spoke to a very well known kennel/lady who was going to make a breeding to a FC male and the female was a bitch that she got back from a field trailer that didn't cut it. I was really surprised but just listened. She went on to say that her trainer said the bitch wasn't that bad after all. This is a bitch that your are asking 2000 for pups. To the poster who asked about COI. The COI would most likely be low if there isn't a like individual in 4 generations. You could go farther I suppose, but most say the further you have to back the less effect it has. Good reading if you have time to spare http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm Good info on motherliness http://www.westwindgsps.com/motherlines.htm These are from my GSP breeders site. I haven't seen a single FT lab breeder who employs this philosophy. Most are breeding a High achieving male who is a outcross to a lower achieving bitch who is a outcross herself on a hunch.


I once bred a field trial washout who ended up being a very nice girl with just a JH titled to a dog with no titles who later earned and FC AFC and got a US National Open Finalist/Canadian National Amateur Champion in her first litter and it was a total out cross. I looked at the pedigree when I did the breeding. Just because a female does not cut it does not mean she cannot produce. It could just be that it was not the right training program for her. You can usually tell - at least I could. There are a few FC AFC's out there who were washouts that somebody else took on and made it happen.


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

I agree there, a producer is a producer. I am sure talented trainers make good dogs look great. But I wouldn't necesarily be the guini pig at 2000 a pop.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I wonder if there has been a study to show statistics on how many field champions come from FC AFC titled females vs how many field champions have come from hunt test or non titled females.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Interestingly; I've seen more of the sire come out in his grand-pups, when one of his daughters produces a litter, than in the first generation.


Well this is interesting indeed. I picked my guy because the same dog was his dam's sire and the sire's grandsire. With that reasoning - his traits have a higher chance of showing up in my dog.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Lab people since you have such an interest in line-breeding why don't you buy a subscription to gooddoginfo.com ? He has been around since 1992. Research your questions/lines/dogs out. IMO


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Kumate,

Thanks for starting this thread. I enjoy discussing breeding. If you recall, I mentioned in an earlier post that there may be no common dogs in the first 4 or 5 generations and it might still be considered a line breeding based on the ancestors in earlier generations. It seems your GSP breeder agrees based on the following paragraph I cut from the link you provided above.

Four generation pedigrees that contain 28 unique ancestors for the 30 positions in the pedigree would obviously generate a low inbreeding coefficient. Yet a ten generation pedigree for the same dog might look quite different. If this dog were to have say 700 unique ancestors  filling the 2048 positions in the pedigree the results for the same dog would be a much higher and truer inbreeding coefficient. _*Sometimes what appears to be an out-bred mix of genes in the first few generations (especially with owners naming their own dogs) ends up being a fine example of linebreeding when the pedigree is extended.
*_
You seem to be searching for a well bred litter of Labradors, but I'm not sure you've stated your plans for the pup you get. I think your objectives would play a bigger role in determining from which litter you buy a puppy than how the litter was bred. Could you elaborate on what you intend to do with you future puppy?

Swack


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## kumate (May 24, 2014)

Hi Jeff, I would like to compete in hunt tests Obedience and maybe tracking. I am not wholly in agreeance with the mentality if you only Hunt Test you don't need a high octane field breeding etc. The dog would live in the House with my 9month GSP and my wife. I have had dogs my whole life and like the best working lines of anybreed. I have had Very high energy GSPS and without starting a new debate, I think they probably trump the endurance of most field labs. With Akc obedience I would rather have a lot of dog to begin with, because you end up taking a lot out thru training. It is different then field training as what there doing there is self rewarding, obedience usually not so. Watching a bench line gsp or working line gsp is like night and day and I am sure the same with most working breeds. As far as hunt tests I am sure a field breeding can do both well, and I like drive. It has been awhile since I read the linebreeding info on Westwinds site but just spoke to him a few days ago. That and the motherliness us a good read. Where is the field lab breeder equivalent of him, does he exist?


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

kumate said:


> Hi Jeff, I would like to compete in hunt tests Obedience and maybe tracking. I am not wholly in agreeance with the mentality if you only Hunt Test you don't need a high octane field breeding etc. The dog would live in the House with my 9month GSP and my wife. I have had dogs my whole life and like the best working lines of anybreed. I have had Very high energy GSPS and without starting a new debate, I think they probably trump the endurance of most field labs. With Akc obedience I would rather have a lot of dog to begin with, because you end up taking a lot out thru training. It is different then field training as what there doing there is self rewarding, obedience usually not so. Watching a bench line gsp or working line gsp is like night and day and I am sure the same with most working breeds. As far as hunt tests I am sure a field breeding can do both well, and I like drive. It has been awhile since I read the linebreeding info on Westwinds site but just spoke to him a few days ago. That and the motherliness us a good read. Where is the field lab breeder equivalent of him, does he exist?


kumate,

Thanks for sharing your objectives for your future Lab. I've had some limited experience with AKC obedience and UKC HT's. One of the puppies I sold from my 2013 litter went to a lady who is into tracking and obedience; she loves her dog. One thing I don't see on your list is any type of hunting. Maybe that's an oversight and you just took that as a "given", or perhaps you prefer to enjoy training and testing your dog in the venues you mention. If hunting is in the plans for your future Lab, the type of hunting you do may play a factor in the selection of the litter. While Labs are very versatile, I think some lines may be better suited to certain types of hunting than others. "The best working lines" may differ depending on the work required or the personal opinions of the observer.

I'm not sure I agree that you take a lot out of an obedience dog through training. That may depend on the trainer and their methods. Also you may find that field training a retriever is much different than field training a pointing dog. There is much more precision and responsiveness required for a retriever to perform in traditional retriever training than a for a pointer. 

I think the reason you're finding differences between the breeders of retrievers and pointers is due to the nature of the tasks each dog performs. Most of what a pointer does in the field is dictated by the dog's instincts and natural abilities. It requires a great nose, good running gear, endurance, and a strong pointing instinct. My impression of the pointing dog trainer's job is to physically condition the dog, steady him on point, and get him working birds well. Yeah, you want to encourage a young dog to work out front, but a good dog naturally wants to run to the front, so that may be more nature than nurture. The way to insure those instinctive traits are perpetuated is through line breeding.

Conversely, although there is a lot of instinctual abilities that go into a good retriever, much more emphasis is placed on training him to work in strict response to his handler's commands. Trained behaviors are stressed to a greater extent in retriever field work than they are in the pointing dog field. As a result, I think retriever folks think more about how to train a dog to become a great retriever than they do how to establish a line-bred strain that will be "superior natural retrievers". When it comes time to plan a breeding they may think things like, "Bubba could be a bit better marker" or "Faith could stand to be a bit more cooperative" and they search for the mate that will improve the trait where their dog is weak. This may be counter to your notion of "proper dog breeding", but I think these factors are why you're finding retriever breeding is different from some other breeds.

Swack

P.S. I wouldn't be surprised that GSP's have more endurance than most field Labs; their job requires it.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

[the success of Motherline breeding comes from utilizing very important sex-linked genes present only in the additional DNA of the X chromosomes of great producing females ... since a male dog has 76 paired chromosomes plus an X and a Y chromosome the only place a male can inherit these important sex-linked genes is through his mother ... therefore; when this son becomes a father only his resulting daughters (never his sons) get this valuable X chromosome back again ... in turn, when these resulting daughters become mothers the male offspring that inherited this valuable X chromosome (will be able to pass the important sex-linked genes on to their get) ]

Pretty cool article, it also explains why I've seen a sire's influence come back in male offspring of their daughters, but oftentimes not in their own offspring. Also might explain why pups tend to take after mom; most chromosomes you get a mix of them from both parents in the pups; but both male and female pups always get a complete X from mom regardless.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

Luke T said:


> I wonder if there has been a study to show statistics on how many field champions come from FC AFC titled females vs how many field champions have come from hunt test or non titled females.


That is a study that would not work... When you breed 2 FC's together it is a no brainer that most will go to experienced field trial homes. A better study would be what (percentage) of the pups who went to competitive field trial / Hunt test homes did well - derby points, qaa, MH, FC... You could have a litter out of 2 FC AFC's and if 10 went to field trial homes and 3 did well everybody wants one so 30% of them did well. You take an untitled bitch who had a litter of 10 and only 1 pup went to a competitive home and that one pup did well - that would mean 100% of the pups that went to competitive homes did well out of the untitled bitch. The untitled bitch could well be the better producer. The only way to know is if both dogs had the same number of pups go into competitive homes. Look at all the FC bitches bred to FC studs and how few have produced well and those litters have all the advantages and opportunities to do well because people who buy them generally plan to finish them. Well, that just opens a can of worms... 

I have been fortunate to have produced FC and/or AFC's in all three colors with moms that had nothing more than a Senior title. Just pick the right pedigree and make sure the mom is something you like and your chances of getting a nice dog will be good.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

HuntEmUp - what article? Good information - I had not thought about that and it makes sense.


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