# Retriever Advisory Committee Layout Blinds



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Be advised that clubs will begin receiving ballots soon, proposed rule change number 4 deals with eliminating the practice of lying a gunner down in the field to retire them.

*Proposal No. 2 Layout Blinds*
Under STANDARD PROCEDURE FOR NON-SLIP RETRIEVER TRIALS, No. 8, 3rd paragraph, (page 28) after the sentence ending _the distinctive shape of the blind _insert the following: _and in no event shall gunners or throwers be instructed to lay down on the ground in layout blinds or like configurations for hiding purposes._
So that No. 8, 3rd paragraph in its entirety will read:
_“Retired Guns, throwers and blind planters should be concealed by a blind that provides complete coverage, adequate space, and natural camouflage to conceal the distinctive shape of the blind and in no event shall gunners or throwers be instructed to lay down on the ground in layout blinds or like configurations for hiding purposes. The blind must be so located as to minimize the development of a trail that will lead the running dog away from the area of the fall. In no circumstances should the judges have the guns move to another position to mislead dogs in their marking. No blinds shall be placed in the field in a marking test except in accordance with the provisions set forth in this paragraph or for the purpose of protecting the running dogs from injury by unseen hazards.”


This is a very important proposal for many of us in the plains states where there are places that it is impossible to retire a gun into natural cover where no natural cover exists, if you object to this rule proposal be sure that your club votes. _


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

When does the voting take place??


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ballots should be sent out soon, there will be a specicfic return by date. Every club should make the club secretary aware of this event and the importance of voting no matter what side you are on, this is the law of the land for our sport and the only way we have to control our own destiny.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I want to make sure we get a freaking ballot - it seems that we don't always get one - we have a pretty good club secretary, so...


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

FOM said:


> I want to make sure we get a freaking ballot - it seems that we don't always get one - we have a pretty good club secretary, so...


This is probably a dumb question... but is there a way the club secretary or other officer could download the ballot?


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Our club will be voting against the rule outlawing them. Layout blinds are important for anybody setting up a test with little cover, few trees and little terrain changes. They make a huge difference and must be used with common sense. The RAC, in my opinion, does not like them because where they run trials they don't need them; thus they don't train on them. 

The other issue I have is all the " I heard they were dangerous". Gossip about layout blinds is unbelievable. I judged a trial in Alabama and the FT Marshall said they don't have layout blinds because "he heard they were outlawed". I checked my own on the airplane!

Common sense must be used in any field trial judging situation. Can there be anything more dangerous than a bird boy with a loaded popper gun? Common sense folks, and that applies to layout blinds.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Okay folks for the new person some terminology? a layout blind???? and why does it say non slip retriever trials.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Commonly used for retired guns in flat featureless fields at trials. Used by the masses for goose hunting blinds. Non-slip retriever is one which will not leave your side until told to do so/ in the AKC rule books non-slip refers to "off-lead" trials.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Commonly used for retired guns in flat featureless fields at trials. Used by the masses for goose hunting blinds. Non-slip retriever is one which will not leave your side until told to do so/ in the AKC rule books non-slip refers to "off-lead" trials.



You thought you could disguise yourself, but Kai sticking her head out gave you away!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Commonly used for retired guns in flat featureless fields at trials. Used by the masses for goose hunting blinds. Non-slip retriever is one which will not leave your side until told to do so/ in the AKC rule books non-slip refers to "off-lead" trials.


Thanks Paul. Is that your hunting buddy??


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

ANOTHER OPINION RE PROPOSAL TO OUTLAW LAYOUT/HIDDEN BLINDS IN MARKING TESTS:

In place guns/thrower retirement; layout blinds in a natural depression behind a natural bland obstacle, i.e., downed tree, cover or a rise in terrain greatly indentifies GOOD MARKING DOGS.
First, I commend Tim West for standing up and rejecting this flawed proposal.
Second, as Tim states "as judges we have a duty to exercise common sense".
Third, a known basic fundemental in training today is to utilize a standing brushed
blind as a "TOOL" in training dogs to LINE to scent. 
Therefore, it is a charade to believe that a brushed blind now affords any reasonable kind of invisibility in multiple marking tests. It is a common occurrence today to see dogs "lined" to the "brushed blind" and observe such a line, then a "hunt" to scent.

This proposal is another example of administrative interferance/injustice.

Clubs should NOT approve this proposal.

W. D. Connor


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Sounds like the RAC is full of PC retriever enthusiast, there are inherent dangers everywhere. Flyer stations are more dangerous than layout blinds will they be next? Mandatory hand rails on all "Mounds" so nobody slips and falls next meeting.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am in favor of judges having the option of using layout blinds. I believe that there are legitimate concerns about the improper use of blinds, which compromise worker safety. But, there are safety concerns with gun handling as well. I believe that common sense would address those issues.

At the National Meetings that I have attended, participants were pretty evenly split on their use. I think that people who compete in areas where cover is abundant do not recognize what a powerful tool a layout blind can be for a judge faced with a field with little to no cover


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

I understand the issues with using layout blinds, ie overheating bird boys and dogs getting hurt by them. If you wrap holding blinds properly and concel them in a tree line there is no more air flow in that than a layout blind, they are just as hot. I have been in both and it seems on a hill with no cover a layout blind can actually be a little cooler than a holding blind set up on a tree line in the sun. 

It all comes down to the ft commitee and judges using good common sense. If its hot use the best options you have available to keep bird boys safe. no body wants the dogs or workers to be injured.

Russell


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

With safety of our dogs and the bird boys as a primary concern for any set-up, I see no compelling and inherent risk associated layout blinds when used with safety as a primary consideration. As others have said there are other more inherently dangerous aspects to any set-up than layout blinds. Again, as others have said, the safe use of a layout blind in fields with little topography change and little cover, is a very effective means to test the marking skills of our dogs. I will encourage our club to vote against the proposed amendment.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

One of the most memorable opens I have watched was in my backyard and utilized layout blinds. It was a tough test in a mowed, rolling field and was ran from a mound. There was no danger to the bird boys and the blind itself had little danger to the dog. In a mowed field or one lacking cover a layout blind sticks out like a sore thumb. Ask anyone who actually hunts out of them or, look at my attached picked and note the location against the cover on the edge of an alfalfa field. Placed in the open without piles of natural local cover such as grass, corn stalks and tumbleweeds they are more like a flashing neon obstacle. If you covered them they'd be a pile of stuff the dog will run around. 

The only rule I could see making is banning them if temps are forecasted or reach over 75 degrees. It would be bad to put anyone in a layout in warm temps. Or possibly if you're bird boys are old farts


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I am in favor of judges having the option of using layout blinds. I believe that there are legitimate concerns about the improper use of blinds, which compromise worker safety. But, there are safety concerns with gun handling as well. I believe that common sense would address those issues.
> 
> At the National Meetings that I have attended, participants were pretty evenly split on their use. I think that people who compete in areas where cover is abundant do not recognize what a powerful tool a layout blind can be for a judge faced with a field with little to no cover


I agree completely. It is an optional tool for judges to use in situations that call for it. To "outlaw" them is really a statement of non- faith in judges and test committees.


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## byounglove (Mar 2, 2005)

Tim West said:


> Our club will be voting against the rule outlawing them. Layout blinds are important for anybody setting up a test with little cover, few trees and little terrain changes. They make a huge difference and must be used with common sense. The RAC, in my opinion, does not like them because where they run trials they don't need them; thus they don't train on them.
> 
> The other issue I have is all the " I heard they were dangerous". Gossip about layout blinds is unbelievable. I judged a trial in Alabama and the FT Marshall said they don't have layout blinds because "he heard they were outlawed". I checked my own on the airplane!
> 
> Common sense must be used in any field trial judging situation. Can there be anything more dangerous than a bird boy with a loaded popper gun? Common sense folks, and that applies to layout blinds.


I don't believe all judges have good sense when it comes to judging. Too often I see a lack of common sense in judges when they set up tests into the sun so the first 15 dogs don't see the marks. or putting gunners in shadows making it near impossible for a dog to see the gunner or bird. Setting up a test that puts a dogs health and well being at risk due to injury or over heating.
I don't believe that layout blinds need to be "outlawed", but a trial giving club has and should continue to have the right to not allow them at their trials. The club is ultimately responsible and liable for its workers and should be the one making the decision regarding the use of layout blinds.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Doesn't it all boil down to the club field trial committee having the "balls" to make the call if a test or particular mark is dangerous for the BB or dog? FTC/HTC has the final approval of any test, there's got to be enough common sense in the group to make the correct decision!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Raymond Little said:


> Doesn't it all boil down to the club field trial committee having the "balls" to make the call if a test or particular mark is dangerous for the BB or dog? FTC/HTC has the final approval of any test, there's got to be enough common sense in the group to make the correct decision!


Yup, but God forbid some nobody inexperienced person challenge someone who's been doing it for 25+ years with a little common sense


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Wouldn't bother me a bit to outlaw them, but I can see the point of the folks in flat areas using them. The only times I have seen them being used in my area they were both unnecessary and dangerous. I think the judges wanted to use them just because they had them. Not sure how my club will vote (if we get a ballot) but I can say that if I am on the HT/FT committee and a judge wants to use them we are definitely going to pull the gang together to discuss and also that I will never throw the bird that requires sitting in the layout blind.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This rule proposal has been distributed, deadline for vote in February 28, be sure that your club exercises it's vote


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Have people or dogs been injured in a FT/HT because of a layout blind?
Is it common or not?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Yes sir. People have been hurt in the past. I have no clue about how often it occurs. I would say rare if I was to guess.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Scott Adams said:


> Have people or dogs been injured in a FT/HT because of a layout blind?
> Is it common or not?


One story has circulated of a dog stepping on a birdboy in a layout blind and injuring the person's eye but no one seems to have knowledge of the incident as to where or when it occurred. My counter is that there have been many incidences of birdboy injury to popper guns so if the issue is birdboy safety perhaps we should be addressing the use of popper guns.

We have been retiring guns on the ground under a holding blind for many more years than layout blinds existed but no one seemed to believe that it was an issue worthy of a rule change.


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## Pattie (Jan 2, 2004)

Hi EdA, being the secretary for our club I received two ballots yesterday.

I received two. Proposal number 1: Definition of an Amateur. proposal Number 2: Layout Blinds.

I find it odd that your Layout Blinds is number 4. What re the other three you got? Why didn't we all get the same ballots?

Hmmmmm

Pattie


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Pattie what I posted was from the RAC agenda at the meeting in November, not all of the proposals up for discussion reached the level of rule changes, you have the correct ballot, I guess I should have started a new thread but hope everyone understands the discrepancy

OK, I edited it to avoid confusion, thanks for pointing that out!

I didn't post the proposal #1 Amateur status, I think that the more they try define an amateur the more confusing it gets, FWIW our club will vote No for both


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Commonly used for retired guns in flat featureless fields at trials. Used by the masses for goose hunting blinds. Non-slip retriever is one which will not leave your side until told to do so/ in the AKC rule books non-slip refers to "off-lead" trials.


Next thing you know they will be inforcing the no zombie rule


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

rbr said:


> Next thing you know they will be inforcing the no zombie rule


If they do, they galleries will be almost nonexistent


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

first they want to outlaw layout blinds...what's next outlaw the use of shotguns


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> first they want to outlaw layout blinds...what's next outlaw the use of shotguns


Be careful... this could be prophetic... and we'll all remember you said it first!


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Yes sir. People have been hurt in the past. I have no clue about how often it occurs. I would say rare if I was to guess.


Please support that statement with real documentation. I have used layouts for hunting all across the mississippi and central flyways and I see no problem with them at tests or trials. Just a matter of common sense logistics. 

Still don't understand why the uninformed want to force their opinions on everyone. That includes layout blinds as well as gun control and abortion and taxes and religion......


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

jacduck said:


> Please support that statement with real documentation. I have used layouts for hunting all across the mississippi and central flyways and I see no problem with them at tests or trials. Just a matter of common sense logistics.
> 
> Still don't understand why the uninformed want to force their opinions on everyone. That includes layout blinds as well as gun control and abortion and taxes and religion......


I have a problem with them at HT, but that's another subject altogether.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

jacduck said:


> Please support that statement with real documentation. I have used layouts for hunting all across the mississippi and central flyways and I see no problem with them at tests or trials. Just a matter of common sense logistics.
> 
> Still don't understand why the uninformed want to force their opinions on everyone. That includes layout blinds as well as gun control and abortion and taxes and religion......


Yeah, I don't think my sources are "uninformed" @ all. 

I personally like them & some places they are basically a must have. So by all mean, spin away, Jack!!


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Main thing that happens around here is birdboy ends up wet,or has red ants invade the layout blind after crumbs or snacks the birdboy may have.
"they be antses down up in there"


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Scatter Creek Retriever Club will vote no on the 
Ban to use layout blinds. Common sense and a little extra 
Effort can and will prevent all issues this proposal has with 
Layout blinds. 
We will vote yes on the amateur proposal which clarifies the existing
Rule.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

EdA said:


> Be advised that clubs will begin receiving ballots soon, proposed rule change number 4 deals with eliminating the practice of lying a gunner down in the field to retire them.
> 
> *Proposal No. 2 Layout Blinds*
> Under STANDARD PROCEDURE FOR NON-SLIP RETRIEVER TRIALS, No. 8, 3rd paragraph, (page 28) after the sentence ending _the distinctive shape of the blind _insert the following: _and in no event shall gunners or throwers be instructed to lay down on the ground in layout blinds or like configurations for hiding purposes._
> ...


Dr Ed, I think you and Lainee both know how I feel about them


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Can someone tell me what is so dangerous about retiring to a layout blind?? The good ones have an aluminum frame that surrounds you like a damn cage.
The material is extremely tight which IMO wouldn't allow a dog to land on top of anyone hard enough to do any damage. The RAC sounds like they are bucking for EPA status.
Might help to not put them down on top of an ant hill Jay.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

A classic case of a solution looking for a problem ...


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Hahhha If you have groceries ...they will come to where the groceries are !


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> The judges with due regard to the recommendations of the FT committee shall determine the tests to be given in each series, _


Some here are calling for more intervention by the FT committee than them articulating their time constraints and pointing out the special conditions,hazards or problems inherent to the grounds.......
In matters such as the one in question, I am more in favor of the RAC submitting a proposal to all the the clubs for a vote, than I am having an individual FT committees be able to dictate to the judges the nuts and bolts of their test..........

john


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Raymond Little said:


> Might help to not put them down on top of an ant hill Jay.


the smart ones only do that once, dog people may take a couple of times before they look around and figure it out......BSEG!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am opposed to the proposal to ban layout blinds. 

There are legitimate concerns about the misuse of layout blinds:

- Use in too hot conditions
- Use in too cool conditions
- Use in conditions where the bird boys might be injured

However, I believe that these conditions can be addressed through common sense.
Where there is no common sense, there is always reason for concern. 

I believe that it is the duty of the Field Trial Committee to intervene whenever the judges do something that endangers the dogs, the workers or the contestants.

I am opposed to efforts to legislate common sense by broad brush bans of practices that may - under some circumstances present risk where common sense is absent.

If this continues, we will be running Field Trials on golf courses, where everything is green and pristine (so the dogs cannot get hurt), the bird boys throw bumpers (so no birds get shot), and tweet on kazoos (so no danger of gun shots exists)

Vote against the proposal


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Last night at the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club's annual meeting, the RMRC voted against the two proposals submitted: a) a change in the definition of "Amateur"; and b) prohibition against layout blinds.


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Ted 
What's wrong with the change in amature proposal ?
What was your clubs issue with the proposal ?
Did I missed something.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> Ted
> What's wrong with the change in amature proposal ?
> What was your clubs issue with the proposal ?
> Did I missed something.



We thought that the proposal was poorly worded. We were only asked to address the following language (which I will call section 1)



> the regular and systematic personal instruction of other individuals regarding the above pursuits at any level.



The following language, which is intended to clarify what the above section means, was not included for approval (which I will call section 2)



> Any person participating in an occasional organized seminar or workshop to improve the training and handling of field trial, hunting test or hunting dogs will be exempt from the above provisions as will a person who receives payment for providing educational material. (such as books. videos, etc) to the public on the training and handling of field trial, hunting test or hunting dogs.



The club believed that section 1 was meaningless without section 2 and that the Rule Book should be amended to include both sections. To put it another way, the club believed that the Rule Change was poorly worded and confusing.


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## lbbuckler (Jun 7, 2008)

Ted, was there any discussion regarding what constitutes compensation? As currently worded, "money, goods & services" I am seeing where someone could say an amateur is a pro because they help out a fellow amateur training partner on a regular & systematic basis in return for assistance in cutting the training fields or a gift such as a bottle of their favorite drink is given as a "thank you" for their help. As explained to Maryland Retriever Club, by a member of the RAC, one should look at co-ownership to prevent anyone from filing a complaint at a field trial.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Every attempt by RAC to redefine Amateur status has resulted in confusion, simple is better, complexity leads to confusion


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

lbbuckler said:


> Ted, was there any discussion regarding what constitutes compensation? As currently worded, "money, goods & services" I am seeing where someone could say an amateur is a pro because they help out a fellow amateur training partner on a regular & systematic basis in return for assistance in cutting the training fields or a gift such as a bottle of their favorite drink is given as a "thank you" for their help. As explained to Maryland Retriever Club, by a member of the RAC, one should look at co-ownership to prevent anyone from filing a complaint at a field trial.



All we have to vote on is what we received from the AKC. Here is the proposal in its entirety:




> DISCUSSION
> 
> 
> Over the past years there have been a number of enterprising individuals who have used their skills in various ways which has allowed them to produce some income from the sport of
> ...



Please note that the language in blue is what the clubs were instructed to consider.

Please note that the language in red was not part of the vote.

Please note that only the underlined language above was subject to our vote. 

The club did not believe that the underlined language - absent further explanation - offered any improvement to the language currently found in the Rule Book.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

If your club disagrees with the Retriever Advisory Committe's ongoing effort to micromanage the rule book vote NO on all proposals both current and future.


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