# Training and where does it begin?



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

The recent thread about using frozen birds got me to thinking.
The question is always asked about when to introduce this or that or when does actual training start. It is of popular belief that the serious and most important stuff starts with basics at around 6 months with which I pretty much agree, *BUT! *I don't necessarily agree with the most important part. Yes you need a good foundation but I say it starts waaaaay before basics. I get very serious training a pup the minute I bring it home. I just don't let the pup know that. To me this is the most important time. Wait a minute, I really should back up here because this is not where it all begins.
The most important part starts with the breeder. I will use my good friends Brandon and Dawni Bromley at Revittup Retrievers as an example. This is where it starts. Not only is Brandon very good at putting together pedigrees but the care and attention the puppies get before they go to their new homes is extremely important, Dawni does an excellent job of this. I have had puppies that came from breeders that don't get the attention they do with the Bromley's and I'll tell you it is a world of difference. The opening line on their web site says it pretty well. *"Welcome to Revittup Retrievers, where nature and nurture synergize". *A puppy with this kind of attention has a big head start.
With that being said the next most important part is when the puppy comes home. Again the popular belief is that the basics it the foundation of all further training. Wrong! It starts with conception and puppies are ready to be molded at birth. As far as actual training it is never too soon. I train professionally part time. Mostly gun dogs but have run a few client dogs in the games. If I had my way I would train nothing but puppies starting at 7 weeks old. I believe this is where it all begins and the is a lot that can be done. It is said that the words never or always should not be used when it come to training. I will add a couple more word to that. Don't ask *WHEN OR IF. *Instead ask how. It is never too early to start.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Steve Shaver said:


> The recent thread about using frozen birds got me to thinking.
> The question is always asked about when to introduce this or that or when does actual training start. It is of popular belief that the serious and most important stuff starts with basics at around 6 months with which I pretty much agree, *BUT! *I don't necessarily agree with the most important part. Yes you need a good foundation but I say it starts waaaaay before basics. I get very serious training a pup the minute I bring it home. I just don't let the pup know that. To me this is the most important time. Wait a minute, I really should back up here because this is not where it all begins.
> The most important part starts with the breeder. I will use my good friends Brandon and Dawni Bromley at Revittup Retrievers as an example. This is where it starts. Not only is Brandon very good at putting together pedigrees but the care and attention the puppies get before they go to their new homes is extremely important, Dawni does an excellent job of this. I have had puppies that came from breeders that don't get the attention they do with the Bromley's and I'll tell you it is a world of difference. The opening line on there web site says it pretty well. *"Welcome to Revittup Retrievers, where nature and nurture synergize". *A puppy with this kind of attention has a big head start.
> With that being said the next most important part is when the puppy comes home. Again the popular belief is that the basics it the foundation of all further training. Wrong! It starts with conception and puppies are ready to be molded at birth. As far as actual training it is never too soon. I train professionally part time. Mostly gun dogs but have run a few client dogs in the games. If I had my way I would train nothing but puppies starting at 7 weeks old. I believe this is where it all begins and the is a lot that can be done. It is said that the words never or always should not be used when it come to training. I will add a couple more word to that. Don't ask *WHEN OR IF. *Instead ask how. It is never too early to start.


Good read Steve. Thanks Don


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Steve, I agree with you, and I have watched you put your words into action with 7 week old puppies. But . . . the large majority on here, myself included, do not know the "HOW" part of your post. Also, we do not know the "WHAT" at that age. How many times have you seen someone post, "My pup won't retrieve" and then read he has been throwing the dang bumpers down the hall 20 times an hour three hours a day?????? I find that for the beginners and less knowledgeable, we will do far less damage by doing nothing but playing and exploring, until ready for Hillman or whatever program. If you ever get your early puppy training ideas put into a book or video, I would for sure buy it. It would be an incredibly valuable addition to the material out there now.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

2tall said:


> Steve, I agree with you, and I have watched you put your words into action with 7 week old puppies. But . . . the large majority on here, myself included, do not know the "HOW" part of your post. Also, we do not know the "WHAT" at that age. How many times have you seen someone post, "My pup won't retrieve" and then read he has been throwing the dang bumpers down the hall 20 times an hour three hours a day?????? I find that for the beginners and less knowledgeable, we will do far less damage by doing nothing but playing and exploring, until ready for Hillman or whatever program. If you ever get your early puppy training ideas put into a book or video, I would for sure buy it. It would be an incredibly valuable addition to the material out there now.





Funny you should mention that. I have two new puppies now and have started doing videos of them but will eventually need assistance putting them all together


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Wonderful topic! 



> Steve said:
> 
> 
> > I get very serious training a pup the minute I bring it home. *I just don't let the pup know that.* To me this is the most important time (after the breeder's input).............the popular belief is that basics is the foundation of all further training. Wrong! It starts with conception and puppies are ready to be molded at birth. As far as actual training it is never too soon............Don't ask WHEN OR IF. Instead, ask how. It is never too early to start.





> Carol said:
> 
> 
> > I find that for the beginners and less knowledgeable we will do far less damage by doing nothing but playing and exploring.


Carol's comment is supported by anecdotal pro trainer stories about young dog(s) just in for formal training needing to have a few things to "straighten out". 

The alternative of waiting seems reasonable except for how do you "play and explore"? Steve stated one aspect of this early stage is to make sure the pup feels like most everything is his choice. It helps to have a bit of a "con man" personality.

The "deal breaker" with Steve's approach vs. a waiting beginner is the delay in becoming a teacher with a plan. Understanding, developing and working at sequential training is not a spontaneous process. It seems contrary to avoid confronting the obvious. I rarely see this mentioned about puppy work......there are early "windows of opportunity" that can never be re-visited......don't miss them.

It is common knowledge that pups thrive on predictability. Design a 24/7 structure for a pup. The ultimate goal is to approach formal training with pups that ooze "That was fun! What's next?"

As Steve suggested "Ask how!"


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I like to work on what I'd call "instintual work" with those puppies, ~5wks -formal training at ~6mt. These are all the aspect associated with nose, socialization, bird drive, independence, exploration, confidence, etc. I also like to work play retrieve (no consequences if they don't choose to retrieve), and even some basic 3 handed casting (I use the nose & treats for this). Still all that is usually done at the pups choice, hidden in as play. There is some puppy OB, (no biting, come when I call, house training, etc) that are introduced with consequences & a rope; but those are done to maintain my sanity, before formal training begins 

The key is reading your student, some pups like to learn, they like to interact and live to please (those pups can pick up many things; with play way before formal training), some pups have to mature they don't have the attention span, they are pretty much out for themselves, and your better off waiting to teach things formally, where you can re-enforce them. Of course even with the most interactive-teachable puppy you still have to be aware of the butterfly effect. No matter what your doing or what your focus as a trainer; a puppy will for whatever reason, at any time, may need to chase a few butterflies, and you just got to throw up your hands, and let them. Heck most of the time it might benefit the trainer; just as much to go chase a few themselves.


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## Tonto (Nov 13, 2013)

I feel we train similar to what you are saying. The pups don't even know they are being trained they just think....this is what we do! Our dogs respond so well to it. I think too many people miss the boat and wait too long to start training.


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## Tonto (Nov 13, 2013)

We have videos of our pups sitting steady then retrieving 40 plus yard doubles (live wing clipped pigeons) while we are shooting over them with primers and using duck calls. All at about 4 months old. People say how do you do that! Slow steps and teach the pups this is just what we do!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bm_ddTsKpk&feature=share&list=UUNsjoiWjxhDt2tsedfrqyAg

Here's just a quick little example teaching pup to deal with obstacles. I am playing indoors in this video because at the time it was only 3 degrees outside. My main point is pups generally will just do things right when they are this age. This little guy doesn't even think about going around the towel or picking up the bone. He just goes for his toy. I try to create habits like this before they start to think of ways to get around things. I teach all age marking to pups this age dealing with all the factors of wind, terrain, cover and weather permitting water but just on a tiny little puppy scale. To me it is just sooo easy to do at this age, they just do it and if you work to make it habit it is fun for all. If you wait and teach it later it can get frustrating for both trainer and pup. Pup in my avatar was learning to take angles into and across the water and come back the same way, At this age it is easy. If you wait till they are older and they have already learned to square the water or go around all together it can be tough to teach them what you want.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Totally agree with you Steve. Thanks for sharing the video.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

They're learning from day one whether you like it or not... so might as well start teaching them the right things... instead of letting them learn the wrong ones...


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> They're learning from day one whether you like it or not... so might as well start teaching them the right things... instead of letting them learn the wrong ones...


Absofreakinglutely!


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Excellent topic!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Steve Shaver said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bm_ddTsKpk&feature=share&list=UUNsjoiWjxhDt2tsedfrqyAg
> 
> Here's just a quick little example teaching pup to deal with obstacles. I am playing indoors in this video because at the time it was only 3 degrees outside. My main point is pups generally will just do things right when they are this age. This little guy doesn't even think about going around the towel or picking up the bone. He just goes for his toy. I try to create habits like this before they start to think of ways to get around things. I teach all age marking to pups this age dealing with all the factors of wind, terrain, cover and weather permitting water but just on a tiny little puppy scale. To me it is just sooo easy to do at this age, they just do it and if you work to make it habit it is fun for all. If you wait and teach it later it can get frustrating for both trainer and pup. Pup in my avatar was learning to take angles into and across the water and come back the same way, At this age it is easy. If you wait till they are older and they have already learned to square the water or go around all together it can be tough to teach them what you want.


Steve, this video is not working for me. It starts to play, then stalls.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

I could not agree more with Steve's general philosophy regarding the fact that "training" starts long before pup ever comes hime from the breeder. I often have folks ask me "how do you get such a young pup to do those things"? I tell them, "pup already has these things in him, you just have to know how to let them out"! Now of course, this is a gross over-simplification, but those of us that have successfully trained retrievers and other breeds, know that this premise rings with much truth at it's root. Certainly as Steve suggests, starting with a pup with the genetic "right stuff" helps in mapping for a recruit gundog pup to have a journey pointed toward success.

Like Steve and others have suggested, much of the "early training" I do with a pup is the shaping of foundational cornerstones of ability and desire of a pup to learn. A vast array of experiences are provided for pup to socialize and to be introduced / exposed to the vast number of relationships and objects that the pup will by necessity deal with throughout life.

I structure "early lessons" to be fun for pup, his learning experience remaining painless all while shaping 
desired behaviors in each moment spent with the little student. I focus on pre-planning success into each concept I am working on with the pup, the objective being to build pup's self confidence and ability as well as desire to learn. Good trainers realize early NOT to test pup (experienced trainers already know what pups are capable of, thus testing as such is really meaningless), time spent building success is far more important. I train with a focus on shaping behaviors for success and as sequential building blocks for increasingly complex concepts or desired behaviors. Secondly, I continually re-visit previously "taught" behaviors while considering pup's overall training as "an ongoing work in process". Pup's training will really continue throughout life, needing to maintain behaviors that have been taught over a long period of time. Much like a knife, pup is continually worked with, but must be maintained to keep a well honed edge.

By the way Steve, that wee pup Homer "takes a nice line".;-)

Cheers Mates,
Irishwhistler


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I agree completely with everything mentioned about training puppies early and often. It is necessary to remember the very short attention spans and accommodate them. Puppies can be taught many things including simple handling at a very early age.

My question was more along the lines of using birds. Many puppies cannot properly handle a full grown mallard. They drag it back by the wing, head or feet. This is not a habit I personally wish to promote. The birds most puppies can handle well are typically doves, quail or pigeons. All very thin skinned game & when combined with sharp puppy teeth can tear. A taste of fresh meat & a hungry puppy (they are always hungry) can end in disaster. Teal would also be an option but in my duck camp teal go on the table. We eat what we kill & teal are second only to speckle bellies as table fare.

I am very much a proponent of introducing birds early in a controlled environment. My only concern was overuse because of the reasons already mentioned. If a pup is hesitant around birds, I use them as much as needed to overcome it.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Steve,

Good topic and video. I noticed the pup went out over the obstacle but returned to the side. It is pretty minor now but I would add another garment so the pup has to come back across something.

Tom


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

In my opinion, most people are way too focused on the retrieving with young retriever pups. I think that those first few months are a great time to teach pup "citizenship" and helping them learn to learn. With a well-bred pup, the retrieving will take care of itself if you follow a good program. Of course, throwing a rolled-up sock down the hall a couple of times a day and introducing a clip-wing pigeon at the appropriate time are great things to do, but much more important is teaching pup to sit calmly to receive affection, to sit and wait to enter or exit doorways, to kennel on command, to walk on lead, etc. If you do it properly, you will be miles ahead by ensuring that pup has some basic obedience skills, but much more importantly, your pup should have a solid understanding of where he fits into his "pack" and how to deal calmly with exciting situations. I've gotten far too many pups in for training that had no concept that a human could dictate what they could or could not do. They lived the first 6 or 7 months of their lives with no rules, boundaries or limitations and then had quite a shock when they got into professional training. To be honest, I'm not impressed by those pups that are racing out to do big marks at 4 months old. That won't make a hill of beans of difference when that dog is 3 years old. But how that pup is conditioned to behave at 4, 5 and 6 months old will make an impression that will have an impact its entire life. One man's opinion.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Pat Nolan's Early Puppy Training Instructional information is very good. I've incorporated many of the puppy drills into my early puppy training. 
http://www.trainingretrieverpuppies.com/training-manual-table-contents

For example, I really like the drills with the paper plates or dixie cups
http://www.trainingretrieverpuppies.com/skills-pup-can-learn-10-weeks-marks


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## CindyGal (Mar 6, 2012)

Great point Steve. As an Obedience Competitor we start with our puppies the day we get them home. All fun and games and treats, treats, treats! I like to teach using "games and treats" with my pup 5 times a day at only 5 minute intervals each time. Keep them wanting more. And the more repetition there is the quicker they will pick it up. In just a few weeks time you can have your dog doing a sit, down, stand, heel (both sides) front sit, recalls, baby jumps (usually just over my legs when sitting on the floor) and they never even knew they were in puppy kindergarten. I also like to have them climb over and through different kinds of obstacles just as you showed in your video while retrieving or doing a recall. A simple towel, some pvc, small cardboard boxes, play tunnels sold for cats etc. Be creative but keep it safe and fun. 

I agree that it makes a huge difference if the pup had been socialized at the Breeder's. I can't say enough of how much of an impact that has on each puppy!

Happy training!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

http://www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12621&hilit=training+plan


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Some of the best "training" is actually shaping behavior that will carry forward into things like patience/steadiness later on. It starts the first time a puppy is picked up and held by its new owner. Puppy stays there calmly for a minute, then starts to squirm. Person puts puppy back on the ground. Puppy learns that wiggling/moving is how to get what it wants. If that puppy is held gently but firmly until the squirming stops, then is let down, it learns that being calm and quiet and still is the way to get what it wants.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Matt McKenzie said:


> In my opinion, most people are way too focused on the retrieving with young retriever pups. I think that those first few months are a great time to teach pup "citizenship" and helping them learn to learn. With a well-bred pup, the retrieving will take care of itself if you follow a good program. Of course, throwing a rolled-up sock down the hall a couple of times a day and introducing a clip-wing pigeon at the appropriate time are great things to do, but much more important is teaching pup to sit calmly to receive affection, to sit and wait to enter or exit doorways, to kennel on command, to walk on lead, etc. If you do it properly, you will be miles ahead by ensuring that pup has some basic obedience skills, but much more importantly, your pup should have a solid understanding of where he fits into his "pack" and how to deal calmly with exciting situations. I've gotten far too many pups in for training that had no concept that a human could dictate what they could or could not do. They lived the first 6 or 7 months of their lives with no rules, boundaries or limitations and then had quite a shock when they got into professional training. To be honest, I'm not impressed by those pups that are racing out to do big marks at 4 months old. That won't make a hill of beans of difference when that dog is 3 years old. But how that pup is conditioned to behave at 4, 5 and 6 months old will make an impression that will have an impact its entire life. One man's opinion.





http://youtu.be/tpfbdQg-FII

I both agree and disagree with you here Matt. Check out the link above and tell me that this is not impressive for a 3 month old pup. Watch how she deals with terrain changes, angles the road and holds her line going up hill when it slants off to the left not to mention the way she handles a full size hen mallard that is almost as big as her. Coming back she squared the road and started to stray with her prize but that is where you got to work it and keep her coming which she also responded to very well. All this is because this is because she has been doing it since I brought her home at 7 weeks starting by hand throwing bumpers only a few feet with these types of factors involved. Of coarse it doesn't always work perfect. There are points along the way where instead of progressing you have to back up a bit. Baby steps! The hardest part is knowing when to push and when to back off. I say *push as far as they will let you* from day one the pup will tell you how far you can go. The whole point of this thread is that they generally start of doing things the right way naturally so I try to make it habit before they get smart enough to learn other ways of doing things. 
I acquired this way of thinking at a seminar for work. Totally unrelated but the light bulb went on for me. The seminar was basically a safety seminar put on by a chiropractor from WA. She asked someone from the audience to come up on stage to demonstrate her point. She laid a book on the floor and asked the person to pick it up. He just bent over with his back without bending at the knees and picked it up. She went on to describe the anatomy of the skeletal system and why it was not engineered to do it this way. Then ( here is where my light bulb came on) she showed a video of a toddler maybe 1 to 2 year old barely walking do the same thing. He walked right up a ball squatted down bending at the knees and not the back grabbed the ball and stood straight up. She says now that is the way the body was engineered to pick things up. I instantly tied this to puppies. I try to think they are all born perfect and it is up to me to keep them that way. If they don't stay perfect then I blame the breeder cuz they didn't breed me the perfect dog.
My focus for this thread is retrieving but you are 100% correct with everything else you said. Just because my focus here is on retrieving and work in the field doesn't mean all things you mentioned aren't important also. In fact I am very glad you made that point. It brings another word to mind, *balance. *It is *all *important. Cram everything into that little brain that *they will allow* you to. Problem with a lot of people is that they just don't realize what these animals are really capable of both as puppies and older dogs. Your words from above *"If done properly you will be miles ahead" *but it applies to everything not just one phase of training. Don't forget I have been where you have been (you know what I mean) when you talk about young pups coming in for training and it can be a nightmare. *Dream early to avoid nightmares later.*
I have always said that I cannot train a client dog as well as I can train my own.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Matt McKenzie said:


> In my opinion, most people are way too focused on the retrieving with young retriever pups. I think that those first few months are a great time to teach pup "citizenship" and helping them learn to learn. With a well-bred pup, the retrieving will take care of itself if you follow a good program. Of course, throwing a rolled-up sock down the hall a couple of times a day and introducing a clip-wing pigeon at the appropriate time are great things to do, but much more important is teaching pup to sit calmly to receive affection, to sit and wait to enter or exit doorways, to kennel on command, to walk on lead, etc. If you do it properly, you will be miles ahead by ensuring that pup has some basic obedience skills, but much more importantly, your pup should have a solid understanding of where he fits into his "pack" and how to deal calmly with exciting situations. I've gotten far too many pups in for training that had no concept that a human could dictate what they could or could not do. They lived the first 6 or 7 months of their lives with no rules, boundaries or limitations and then had quite a shock when they got into professional training. To be honest, I'm not impressed by those pups that are racing out to do big marks at 4 months old. That won't make a hill of beans of difference when that dog is 3 years old. But how that pup is conditioned to behave at 4, 5 and 6 months old will make an impression that will have an impact its entire life. One man's opinion.


Matt JMO you want the pup doing what you are saying (socializing etc) but also getting him/her to do retrieving some way as pups. Keep it fun!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

twall said:


> Steve,
> 
> Good topic and video. I noticed the pup went out over the obstacle but returned to the side. It is pretty minor now but I would add another garment so the pup has to come back across something.
> 
> Tom




I was more concerned on focus on the mark. I wanted him to have the open ends so that he had the choice to go over or around. He is not afraid to go over things! He went around it coming back because that is where I was so actually he took a straight line both going and coming. I like them to know both ways are ok depending on the situation. Just like later on they need to know that it is ok to both swim by a point or get on it. Teaching direct route as well as conquering obstacles.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

With a litter of 6 week old pups on the ground ,I just cant let this thread die quite yet.....bump. Keep the ideas coming. 

We are working on small pieces of hotdog rewards when they get all 4 feet on the place board with shaping a sit coming next and doing a lot of exploring as a pack.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

shawninthesticks said:


> With a litter of 6 week old pups on the ground ,I just cant let this thread die quite yet.....bump. Keep the ideas coming.
> 
> We are working on small pieces of hotdog rewards when they get all 4 feet on the place board with shaping a sit coming next and doing a lot of exploring as a pack.


love the exploring idea but I would so rather you not start shaping behavior before I get my puppy... just me but I want to do that stuff myself


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> love the exploring idea but I would so rather you not start shaping behavior before I get my puppy... just me but I want to do that stuff myself


Good point, but I'd say you are way above the standard in the case of most new puppy owners as far as training.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Shawn. 

Meh, I'm nobody. I don't know that much but I guess I am ahead of the average pet buyer.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

2tall said:


> Steve, I agree with you, and I have watched you put your words into action with 7 week old puppies. But . . . the large majority on here, myself included, do not know the "HOW" part of your post. Also, we do not know the "WHAT" at that age. How many times have you seen someone post, "My pup won't retrieve" and then read he has been throwing the dang bumpers down the hall 20 times an hour three hours a day?????? * I find that for the beginners and less knowledgeable, we will do far less damage by doing nothing but playing and exploring, until ready for Hillman or whatever program.* If you ever get your early puppy training ideas put into a book or video, I would for sure buy it. It would be an incredibly valuable addition to the material out there now.


I'm also looking forward to Steve's videos, but in the mean time Jackie Mertens "Sound Beginnings" takes you from a seven week old pup up to the beginning of formal training around six months. I know pros hate to get dogs that have bad habits trained in by incompetent owners, but just as bad or worse are dogs where the owner did nothing at all for those first six months. It's really not rocket science, start with play retrieves in the house, then on open lawn, build up that retrieve in the young pup. At the same time teach the dog to be a good citizen, know it's name, sit on command, heel around on a short simple lead, and come when called by name or "here". Short simple 2-5 minute sessions, that teach the dog how to work without boring him to death. 

If you have an older dog in training, or belong to a training group, take your pup to training sessions. This is good socialization and introduction to the training regime. At the end of the session shorten up the marks, hold your 3-5 month old pup up in front of your kneeling figure, have the gunner make some noise, shoot and throw. Depending on the dog's talent you may need to keep the marks very short and simple, but I have seen real good marking dogs run 200 yard plus singles at four months old. Play it by ear.

John


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

John Robinson said:


> If you have an older dog in training, or belong to a training group, take your pup to training sessions. This is good socialization and introduction to the training regime. At the end of the session shorten up the marks, hold your 3-5 month old pup up in front of your kneeling figure, have the gunner make some noise, shoot and throw. Depending on the dog's talent you may need to keep the marks very short and simple, but I have seen real good marking dogs run 200 yard plus singles at four months old. Play it by ear.
> 
> John


I do this but I also have the pup sit in my lap watch all the marks, and learn not all marks are his, learn to be quite, calm, and focused. Once they relax, they get to try their hand at those big dog marks, and usually remember where they're at. Then it's back in the lap, for more quite, calm and focus; then back in the truck, after they relax. Introductory line manners (while they're still small enough that you don't have to wrestle them )


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I love raising puppies; it's rewarding because they learn so fast. Over the years, I've picked up some things I do with litters that seem to help the pup get off to a good start. I do the ENS, not sure if it helps (or how you'd tell!) but more as part of weighing/handling them the first 2 weeks. I imprint them to come to the whistle as soon as they can hear, about when the eyes open. Instead of banging on the whelping box to call them over, I whistle and they come tumbling over as soon as they can hear. I also use the whistle to announce their dam returning to the box (by then she's not staying with them 24/7) and later, with meals when they're on solid food. By the time I take them outside and start on walks, they know to come to the whistle because they still don't see well past 10'. It's really fun with a big litter to have them come flying and people love it when they get their new pups.










The other fun thing I do is put tabs on them at about 5 weeks, and they leash break each other. Great entertainment watching them drag each other around, and they learn to give in to neck pressure and not to scream and pitch a hissy fit or the whole litter will pile on. By the time they leave, they'll walk on a lead with no back flips or leash rodeos. 

My pups also have a good start on crate training and house breaking. I put a crate in their pen as soon as they're up and walking around, and start shutting them in it for 10 or 15 minutes while I clean their pen. As they get older, I'll leave them shut in the crates for longer periods and also start taking them on truck rides in crates. Introducing crate confinement is much easier when they're together, or even in pairs/3s if it's a larger litter, and they get a start on house breaking learning to "hold it". I've had entire litters sleep through the night in their crates by 6 weeks (they're not shut in it; the door is left open). As long as I get up first and get them outside as soon as they wake up. It helps that the puppy pen is right next to the outside door!

I tell people when they get their pups, that they'll unlearn that imprinted recall as fast as they learned it if it's not practiced several times a day. You can overdo the retrieving but you can never overdo the recalls. The first week or two at home with a new baby puppy is the best time to convince it the human is the center of its universe, and how much fun it is to learn new stuff. I think it sets the stage for a pup that loves to learn its entire life.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> love the exploring idea but I would so rather you not start shaping behavior before I get my puppy... just me but I want to do that stuff myself


I don't really think you have to worry about Shawn breaking the puppy. It Would be unrealistic to expect a breeder to put a puppy in a padded room so that you can start doing whatever you want with him at seven weeks. Any Exposure a puppy gets is just beneficial. Let's be realistic. I would be thanking Shawn for any extra stimulation puppies get beyond the norm. Which it sounds like that is what Shawn is doing.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> I don't really think you have to worry about Shawn breaking the puppy. It Would be unrealistic to expect a breeder to put a puppy in a padded room so that you can start doing whatever you want with him at seven weeks. Any Exposure a puppy gets is just beneficial. Let's be realistic. I would be thanking Shawn for any extra stimulation puppies get beyond the norm. Which it sounds like that is what Shawn is doing.


I definitely agree with this. Any positive stimulation is a good thing. It's not like he's stick fetching them.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Three handed casting drills start early... should be on the back pile at 8 weeks.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Three handed casting drills start early... should be on the back pile at 8 weeks.


Slacker. 

I expect them to be forced to the nipple by 3 weeks.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave Plesko said:


> Slacker.
> 
> I expect them to be forced to the nipple by 3 weeks.


They always end up with mouth issues unless you get them early.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Dave Plesko said:


> Slacker.
> 
> I expect them to be forced to the nipple by 3 weeks.


I'm still having problems with my force to nipple. Can't seem to overcome my sticking issue.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

This seemed like it was shaping up to be a good thread ,until I posted on it.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> I don't really think you have to worry about Shawn breaking the puppy. It Would be unrealistic to expect a breeder to put a puppy in a padded room so that you can start doing whatever you want with him at seven weeks. Any Exposure a puppy gets is just beneficial. Let's be realistic. I would be thanking Shawn for any extra stimulation puppies get beyond the norm. Which it sounds like that is what Shawn is doing.


I"m not buying a pup from Shawn, Susan  

I'll admit posting that to get things going with the (obviously excellent) breeders on here. I don't think necessarily anyone would screw up a 6 week old puppy teaching it to sit.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

shawninthesticks said:


> This seemed like it was shaping up to be a good thread ,until I posted on it.


It isn't your post it's mine and aside from the guys screwing around a bit I like the input from Julie and others that breed frequently.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I"m not buying a pup from Shawn, Susan
> 
> I'll admit posting that to get things going with the (obviously excellent) breeders on here. I don't think necessarily anyone would screw up a 6 week old puppy teaching it to sit.


Who said you were..... But you act like breeders don't know what they are doing. If that's the way you feel, why would you even say such a thing? I am not expecting a response, this last question is merely rhetorical.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> Who said you were..... But you act like breeders don't know what they are doing. If that's the way you feel, why would you even say such a thing? I am not expecting a response, this last question is merely rhetorical.


Easy Susan, no one said "breeders" don't know what they're doing. I would never make such a broad generalization (any more). 

I see all kinds of puppies with all kinds of habits coming from all kinds of breeders, professional to complete amateur every day in my obedience business. I also observe simple little behaviors like "give paw" being taught by people very early, and then turning into undesirable behaviors later on, like climbing on people. 

As a result I have a long list of do's and don'ts for my puppy clients, leading me to the conclusion I'd like to have as close to a clean slate as possible in a puppy I bought for myself.

It has nothing to do with your, or any other breeder's competence. It's a simple preference on my part.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> Easy Susan, no one said "breeders" don't know what they're doing. I would never make such a broad generalization (any more).
> 
> I see all kinds of puppies with all kinds of habits coming from all kinds of breeders, professional to complete amateur every day in my obedience business. I also observe simple little behaviors like "give paw" being taught by people very early, and then turning into undesirable behaviors later on, like climbing on people.
> 
> ...







DarrinGreene said:


> They're learning from day one whether you like it or not... so might as well start teaching them the right things... instead of letting them learn the wrong ones...


But what about this^^^^^^


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Easy Susan, no one said "breeders" don't know what they're doing. I would never make such a broad generalization (any more).
> 
> I see all kinds of puppies with all kinds of habits coming from all kinds of breeders, professional to complete amateur every day in my obedience business. I also observe simple little behaviors like "give paw" being taught by people very early, and then turning into undesirable behaviors later on, like climbing on people.
> 
> ...


again, wrapped in a box with no stimulation. to intimate that "giving paw" means they will climb on people later is ludicrous. A simple sit maintain takes care of that..... Can only imagine your list. Again, rhetorical.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

shawninthesticks said:


> But what about this^^^^^^


Why would everyone get their panties in a wad because I said I would rather have a puppy with a minimal amount of training done at the breeder? 

I know everyone takes pride in what they do and I think that's great. 

Sorry if I offended anyone. If this wasn't quoted all over I'd take it down. 

I ought to know better than to read anything other than the classified ads.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> again, wrapped in a box with no stimulation. to intimate that "giving paw" means they will climb on people later is ludicrous. A simple sit maintain takes care of that..... Can only imagine your list. Again, rhetorical.


Maybe if you unwadded your panties and had a real conversation with me you'd find out I make a lot of sense Susan. You're obviously not going to do that though, are you?

I just did the count based on the Christmas cards I sent. 75 dogs trained in obedience this past 12 months. That's year one of the obedience business, all by referral/word of mouth.

Please don't tell me my business. If I sucked, I wouldn't be succeeding.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I ought to know better than to read anything other than the classified ads.


Nah!....I would have nothing to read


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Maybe if you unwadded your panties and had a real conversation with me you'd find out I make a lot of sense Susan. You're obviously not going to do that though, are you?
> 
> I just did the count based on the Christmas cards I sent. 75 dogs trained in obedience this past 12 months. That's year one of the obedience business, all by referral/word of mouth.
> 
> Please don't tell me my business. If I sucked, I wouldn't be succeeding.


I don't like having conversations with people who come on the Internet and blow smoke up their own behind. If you are the obedience king, how many OtCH dogs have you trained? Or even UD? Do I need to tell Connie Cleveland to watch out? how about a master hunter or even a senior hunter? To try to give a new person the idea here on the retriever training forum that a breeder should do nothing with their puppies is absolutely ludicrous and irresponsible on the behalf of anybody who claims to be a professional. Viewpoints like that are the ones that create timid pups. Performance puppies should be handled and stimulated and be bold happy creatures. I'm very happy for you that you are making a living teaching puppies to sit and heel. I care little about what you deem to be success. I only care about false impressions that you may give to others.

you only care about trying to show other people that you are right instead of learning why you might not be correct at all.

that's only 6.25 dogs per month regards -


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> Maybe if you unwadded your panties and had a real conversation with me you'd find out I make a lot of sense Susan. You're obviously not going to do that though, are you?
> 
> I just did the count based on the Christmas cards I sent. 75 dogs trained in obedience this past 12 months. That's year one of the obedience business, all by referral/word of mouth.
> 
> Please don't tell me my business. If I sucked, I wouldn't be succeeding.


Hey I'm pretty sure Justice doesn't wear panties. If she does they are big girl panties for sure.

Your comments to Shawn did come off pretty arrogant to me. I stand by my belief any positive stimulation from day one is a positive. To think that what Shawn is doing could somehow set you back in the future is ludicrous.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i have been starting a couple of pups per year the last four years. imho there are vast differences imparted to puppies by the actions and processes of the breeders/whelpers. i can only hope that i can do as fine a job for others as has been done for me and my pups, if and when in the future i feel i have a breedable bitch. the importance of positively managing the first six to eight weeks in the life of a dog is not as understood as it should be.

that said, since i am the best puppy trainer in the world, i can take one out from under a porch at ten weeks that aint yet seen a human and turn it into a world beater. LOL


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I just got call from a potential customer. Has a young special needs child and just got a young pit mix puppy, 8 weeks old. Told me yesterday how great it was that she sits and already knows how to giver her paw. Also told me her son crawls a lot on the floor and the pup is all over him. Also how she jumps up for attention and grabs pant legs and such looking for attention.

I instructed over the phone to begin rewarding pup for four on the floor and only four on the floor. Ignore and or gently shake pup off if nipping and reward for calm behavior, sitting, if it happens, but if not simply having all four paws on the floor. 

This pup will also need to be crate trained (more challenging than you would imagine for the guilty feeling pet owner), in order to control the interaction between pup and the child (remember, special needs, can't talk and doesn't walk well).

Instructed customer to begin feeding pup in crate. 

Customer called this morning, excited and extremely happy. In just one evening pup began exhibiting calm behavior, sometimes sitting, sometimes not, for attention. Fed dinner in crate last evening, this morning pup went to crate the food bowl came out.

Nothing novel here at all, and certainly not a brag but rather, an example of what I deal with day in day out, given in an effort to get people to understand where I come from about some of this stuff.

So imagine, just imagine, if this person continued promoting pup raising a paw for attention/reward. Child crawling, frustrated puppy with feet up either climbing on him or pawing his face accidentally. Imagine if this person did a half baked job of crate training and didn't understand the need to supervise every interaction with her child. 

Imagine if this pup comes to see the crawling child as a littermate/play toy instead of a human. 

Pup needs boundaries in place quickly to prevent any interaction with the child that could cause injury to either. 

People send dogs to the shelter in situations like this every single day and they die, especially the dreaded pitbull.

So you guys go ahead and **** on my for my personal preference in what I'd like a puppy to know and not know when they show up at my house. Keep sending your dogs to top field pros while you go to your regular job and then act like you're God's gift to field training. Keep challenging me over the fact that I don'r have time to be a FT'r or a top obedience competitor.

I will go keep a child safe and a dog out of the shelter while you're doing it.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> I just got call from a potential customer. Has a young special needs child and just got a young pit mix puppy, 8 weeks old. Told me yesterday how great it was that she sits and already knows how to giver her paw. Also told me her son crawls a lot on the floor and the pup is all over him. Also how she jumps up for attention and grabs pant legs and such looking for attention.
> 
> I instructed over the phone to begin rewarding pup for four on the floor and only four on the floor. Ignore and or gently shake pup off if nipping and reward for calm behavior, sitting, if it happens, but if not simply having all four paws on the floor.
> 
> ...


Sounds like good advice to me especially with a baby!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

One phone call and an evening? You sure the pup wasn't just tired?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> One phone call and an evening? You sure the pup wasn't just tired?


No, I am sure that Darrin is a miracle worker. Cause he told me


> In just one evening pup began exhibiting calm behavior, sometimes sitting, sometimes not, for attention.


 I guess he thinks field trial people don't teach their puppies that "four on the floor gets you more." It's such a new and novel approach. In one night, everything is cured. Amazing. 


> So you guys go ahead and **** on my for my personal preference in what I'd like a puppy to know and not know when they show up at my house. Keep sending your dogs to top field pros while you go to your regular job and then act like you're God's gift to field training. Keep challenging me over the fact that I don'r have time to be a FT'r or a top obedience competitor.




I know. Don't ya just hate that? Some of us have trained our own dogs, some of us have started our own dogs, and some of us have used a pro. Some of us have done all of these. But you need to know your audience before you start flinging poop. Time to take off the pink thong and put on your big boy panties. We all make time for what we want to make time for. Period. Obviously competition is not for everybody.

Those who can't, teach regards-


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I can't believe we're having a long thread about breeding expertise and Bubba hasn't thrown in advice. Word on the street Bubba's been bred a few times....


/Paul


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Darrin ,How could it be that since I experimented with a litter of puppies (twice in a 6 week period) getting a reward for putting all 4 on a rubber mat that ,that is even close to what you described above. 

As an OB trainer isn't it your job to shape the dogs and their owners to coincide in life ? If the pup hadnt done these things you described ,then you would'nt have gotten the call for the job.

Also if said pup had come from my home , it would have already been introduced to the crate, and that human skin is not a chew toy, and that after you eat ,you go outside as a basic routine, along with other things ,not saying that these things wont need addressed in a continued manner, but they have been introduced to basic life skills.

I will keep doing what I'm doing and you keep doing what your doing and we'll both be just fine. 

Good news is that I will be washing the litter out (all but 1) in the next couple weeks. 

1 last thing , Yes My female is headed south with a pro soon ,BUT this spring I'll be washing kennels, throwing birds ,helping with OB work and doing all the other typical crappy BB things for about 30 hours a week/5 days a week as partial payment for a couple months, with a 30 minute drive each way and the fuel outa my pocket, and continue training my dogs, all while I run a small business and raise 2 kids with my wife which is back in school earning her RN , dont generalize me!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

shawninthesticks said:


> Darrin ,How could it be that since I experimented with a litter of puppies (twice in a 6 week period) getting a reward for putting all 4 on a rubber mat that ,that is even close to what you described above.
> 
> As an OB trainer isn't it your job to shape the dogs and their owners to coincide in life ? If the pup hadnt done these things you described ,then you would'nt have gotten the call for the job.
> 
> ...


Shawn since you have screwed this litter up I'm here to bail you out. If you have any pups left I will volunteer to drive up and take one off your hands. Free of charge to you of course. Well since I'm doing the driving a hunt would be nice of you to show your gratitude for my generous offer.


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