# creek robber pup issues



## troubadour (Mar 3, 2009)

i have noticed alot of the creek robber pups ive been seeing are popping one or bolth of their cruciats (2 in my club alone) is this just a coincidance or has anyone else been seeing the same thing


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I think it's happening. My Creek Robber pup has had a TPLO.


----------



## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Creek Robber has had both his done. At least one littermate that I know of has had both of his done. We know at least 2 dogs from RTF sired by Auggie that have had theirs done. You figure do the math 

Kris


----------



## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

Auggie's littermate had double acl, his sire and 1 uncle on bitch side had double acl repairs.
Chance you take with this bloodline.


----------



## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

I wonder how many Lean Mac pups have had torn ACL's


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think cruciates are the next serious thing to look at in pedigrees. An expensive thing to repair. I've heard of derby dogs with problems...

John Lash


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

statistically A LOT more money is spent on torn ACL's than displastic hips....

Juli


----------



## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Has anyone had similar problems with Tiger pups (Littermate to Creek Robber)?


----------



## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

In Auggie's defense, I have had 5 litters of Auggie pups since 2004 and haven't had any reports of ACL problems in any of these offspring. One of them got a second in an Amateur last weekend!

Vikki


----------



## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

+ does anyone realize that he has sired over 70+ litters . 
Sue


----------



## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

That's what I was thinking Sue. Plus this dog has been running trials for many years - that is a lot of wear and tear.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Boondux said:


> That's what I was thinking Sue. Plus this dog has been running trials for many years - that is a lot of wear and tear.


NAFTCH FC AFC He's Czar Nicholas is 13 years old. To the best of my knowledge he was campaigned for 10 years without any time off for injuries. The sound ones are out there, but they are sure getting harder to find. Especially since many of the popular sires have blown ACLs during their careers.


----------



## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

One dog with a blown knee is no big deal. A dog with blown knees who has littermates with blown knees, both sire and dam with blown knees and lots of offspring with blown knees makes me just a wee bit suspicious. But who cares as long as they win, right?


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Hookset said:


> One dog with a blown knee is no big deal. A dog with blown knees who has littermates with blown knees, both sire and dam with blown knees and lots of offspring with blown knees makes me just a wee bit suspicious. But who cares as long as they win, right?


and you can breed them;-) unlike a dog with hip displaysia (well, you could breed that dog too, and perhaps some people would buy pups....but, the point being.....)

Juli


----------



## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Maybe we need to find a genetic marker for it and casuse another panic.


----------



## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

Mike Perry said:


> Maybe we need to find a genetic marker for it and casuse another panic.


if there was a genetic marker for it, i would love that. the more clearances, the better the odds that one won't have poor health. not a guarantee, but increases the odds.
________
Romanian Recipes


----------



## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Or maybe we should look for trends and make wise breeding decisions accordingly. There's no perfect dog out there, but if I chose to breed a litter, I'm going to take health and soundness into consideration just as much as marking talent.
If I breed my HRCH MH bitch, my market is not top-end FT people. It's hunt test folks and hunters. They can be very successful with a pup that doesn't have the level of talent to consistently place in AA stakes, but I don't want to knowingly sell them a pup that is LIKELY to require $5-7K in knee surgery down the road. 
I would much more likely breed my clear bitch to a CNM or EIC carrier than to a dog that comes from lines that have a very high incedence of blown cruciate ligaments. The fact that some pups will likely be carriers of EIC or CNM in no way affects their ability to be great HT dogs or hunting companions. Lack of soundness is another issue altogether. One man's opinion.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Hookset said:


> I would much more likely breed my clear bitch to a CNM or EIC carrier than to a dog that comes from lines that have a very high incedence of blown cruciate ligaments. The fact that some pups will likely be carriers of EIC or CNM in no way affects their ability to be great HT dogs or hunting companions. Lack of soundness is another issue altogether. One man's opinion.


Make that two!!


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

and three.....(DM, chessie perspective....)

Juli


----------



## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

Why is this surgery so expensive?My vet told me it is about a three hour procedure.

Bryan.


----------



## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Just do the math and he is probably no better or worse than many other top quality stud dogs.
Lots of pups hence lots of opps. for injuries.
Lots of those pups go to serious FT trainers so the opp. for injury goes way up from the high energy training regimen they go through compared to HT folks who may only train limited amounts compared to FT.
The genetic marker comment was a sarcastic one. 
Tongue in cheek regards
MP


----------



## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

I have been running by Creek Robber BLF hard in trails/HTs/ and hunting at least 3 flyways a year for the past 4 years. 

Absolutely NO problems


----------



## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

BryanMc said:


> Why is this surgery so expensive?My vet told me it is about a three hour procedure.
> 
> Bryan.


The surgical fee is only about $750.....there are numerous other items on my bill from the TPLO my dog had done last week....At least 33 items like drugs, the drill bit, radiology, sutures, $111 worth of screws....it goes on and on. None of the charges are that big on their own but it does add up!


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BryanMc said:


> ?My vet told me it is about a three hour procedure.


for the surgeons who perform them regularly no where near that long, there is presurgical prep time involved but actual surgical time is much closer to 1 hour

as to the expense, highly specialized facilities, special equipment, and highly trained surgeons with specialized skills, a comparable procedure on a human would be 10 times that amount


----------



## Lee W (Jul 19, 2004)

Do we look at the dogs or the demands we put on them ??


----------



## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Lee W said:


> Do we look at the dogs or the demands we put on them ??


Both. There is no study that proves that ruptured cranial cruciate ligaments in Labrador Retrievers from FT lines have a heritable component. Some believe so, some believe not. My personal subjective opinion is that the demands we place on these dogs can easily lead to knee injury in any dog. That said, from where I'm standing, some lines look to be more prone to these injuries than others. I don't state this as fact. It is my opinion. 
When researching studs for my upcoming breeding, one of many criteria I considered is knee health in the individual as well as parents, siblings and offspring.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

BryanMc said:


> *Why is this surgery so expensive*?My vet told me it is about a three hour procedure.
> 
> Bryan.


somebody has to pay for the Range Rover,college loans,kids in school,alimony payments,child support,country club membership,undocumented housekkeeper,timeshare in Maui,failed investment on ostrich farm,additions to new house, and other expenses


----------



## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

Mike Noel said:


> The surgical fee is only about $750.....there are numerous other items on my bill from the TPLO my dog had done last week....At least 33 items like drugs, the drill bit, radiology, sutures, $111 worth of screws....it goes on and on. None of the charges are that big on their own but it does add up!



*Those screws are cheap....the one they put in my ankle was $750....when they took it out in June I asked for it back.....I have it ......so if anyone needs a slightly used syndenmosis screw let me know....

Ebay Regards,

Aaron*


----------



## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

Aaron Homburg said:


> *Those screws are cheap....the one they put in my ankle was $750....when they took it out in June I asked for it back.....I have it ......so if anyone needs a slightly used syndenmosis screw let me know....
> 
> Ebay Regards,
> 
> Aaron*


Yours was a *HEAVY DUTY* screw!!!! You could probably sell it to an NFL lineman that is having surgery


----------



## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

I got a couple of screws holding the new ACL in my leg.


----------



## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

IMHO,
I believe that the bad hips or hip AND the cruiciate injury on the same side IS directly related.
I also strongly believe that young dogs are being pushed way too hard to run trials @ 12,13 months of age.You know that means these babies have gone through the basics..... These babies are still growing. 
Mentally maybe, physically?????????
Just a thought
Sue


----------



## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

I have a question for the hundereds/thousands of Auggie pup owners out there, WHAT ARE THE TIBIAL PLATEAU ANGLES ON HIM, ANYONE? I want to mention first of all that Auggies owner seems like a great guy and this is not intended to slam him at all but point out something that needs to be asked with a dog who has one or more CCL repair's on board and is being used in a breeding program. Breeding is not a perfect science, you try and lesson your chances of creating pups that will require painful surgeries, collapse, go blind, or worse live a life in discomfort, period! When you take a look at the structure of the knee it becomes fairly obvious that tibial plateau angles are a factor and research has shown that in labs a TPA in excess of 23 degrees has shown to lead to premature rupture. Weight, activity, genetic structure and recently some feel that hormones may play a part also, though not completly proven. I would also agree that the trend to push puppies in thier derby careers and be a MH, or QAA at a younger age and in thier heavy groeth phase and long from structurally mature must (my opinion) contribute to this CCL trend becuase back in the day 20 years or so most pro's did'nt even get real serious with thier pups untill they were older.


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I have often thought about how much physical exercise is good for a young pup/dog (under 12-18 months)....would be interesting to see what research could tell us.

Juli


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> I would also agree that the trend to push puppies in thier derby careers and be a MH, or QAA at a younger age and in thier heavy groeth phase and long from structurally mature must (my opinion) contribute to this CCL trend becuase back in the day 20 years or so most pro's did'nt even get real serious with thier pups untill they were older.


That is incorrect and simply revisionist history with no substantiation, I was around 20 years ago, 30 years ago too, collar basic training is no different now (other than the quality of the equipment) than it was then.

FC-AFC Trumarc's Billie Jean almost won a Double Header shortly after her second birthday, NFC-AFC Otus of Redfern won an Amateur at 25 months old, and FC- AFC Trumarc's Ziparoo won 2 Opens and ran the National Retriever Championship Stake when he was 22 months old.


----------



## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> Just do the math and he is probably no better or worse than many other top quality stud dogs.
> Lots of pups hence lots of opps. for injuries.
> Lots of those pups go to serious FT trainers so the opp. for injury goes way up from the high energy training regimen they go through compared to HT folks who may only train limited amounts compared to FT.
> The genetic marker comment was a sarcastic one.
> ...


Correct me if I am wrong,
I would think that a dog that is not worked frequently or as hard would not have the muscle strength to lend support to the joints & ligiments. They would be more likely to suffer these injuries than the dog that is in peak shape?
Right?
Wrong?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

My FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer has had two TPLO surgeries, and as a result, I had her spayed. Her sire is Creek Robber. I cannot say anything about the predominance of such issues with his offspring without more data.

My orthopod - Randy Fitch, who Ed Aycock recommended to me - has done a great deal of research in this area. Randy says that - in his opinion - the ACL injuries are not related to:

1) tibial angles;
2) stress of performance in FT

He believes that the ACL injuries are linked to some structural issue which they have not identified and that those issues are genetically transmitted, but nothing more specific than that


----------



## Fire N Ice (Nov 12, 2007)

Other than Ed's factual posts and Ted's first hand knowledge of his own dog this thread is full on BS. It is what it is. Don't buy his pup's or breed to him that's your choice. Have some class otherwise.


----------



## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

ginger69 said:


> IMHO,
> ...I also strongly believe that young dogs are being pushed way too hard to run trials @ 12,13 months of age.You know that means these babies have gone through the basics..... These babies are still growing.
> Mentally maybe, physically?????????
> Just a thought
> Sue


Sue, I totally agree with you...


----------



## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> My orthopod - Randy Fitch, who Ed Aycock recommended to me - has done a great deal of research in this area. Randy says that - in his opinion - the ACL injuries are not related to:
> 
> 1) tibial angles;
> 2) stress of performance in FT
> ...


Makes sense to me and I don't think it is fair for others to single out Auggie. Because if the internet were around 15 years ago, they'd be saying the same thing about Code Blue. Then, I hear the stories and have experienced myself skelital issues with Chopper, Carbon and Cosmo offspring. Haven't I read on here that Super Powder had skelital issues? Didn't he sire both Codes Red & Blue? 

Is there a connection here?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I would also like to say that the dog that won the Open that I judged this year at San Jose .... FC Adam Acres Lilly ... was sired by Creek Robber

She was impressive and I would love to get a pup out of her if she is ever bred


----------



## windigo (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't know anything about the inheritability of cruciate ligament disease, but I do know that our dogs are the only athletes who are pulled out of a box, walked to the line, and sent off as hard as they can go with no warm up. If they are lucky, they are staked out to stand around when they are done. If they are unlucky, they are stuffed back in the same box.

Whether you are concerned with cruciate injuries, or ANY injuries, our dogs deserve better pre- and post-training care. Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs first thing each day to stretch them and warm them up. Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials, take your dog out for a 20-minute walk before she runs, and walk her around when she's done. Can't hurt, and it might help.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

windigo said:


> Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs


something Bobby and I discussed 2 or 3 years ago advocated by a very smart and astute physical therapist I know quite well.....

Dr. Steiss advocates warming up prior to running, something we do at field trials that we call airing but something we rarely do in training


----------



## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Good point....Hard to implement when we are marshalling,shooting,rebirding ect.I actually have not considered what you are saying....but it makes so much sense .We pretty much all stake out before and after in training....but not at trails .


----------



## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

windigo said:


> I don't know anything about the inheritability of cruciate ligament disease, but I do know that our dogs are the only athletes who are pulled out of a box, walked to the line, and sent off as hard as they can go with no warm up. If they are lucky, they are staked out to stand around when they are done. If they are unlucky, they are stuffed back in the same box.


This may be one of the most insightful posts I have read. If you look back at NCAA Div 1 Football and the NFL back in the 80’s and 90’s and the amount of knee injuries that took place during that time period compared to now it is staggering. Two things have changed in Football that have reduced ACL knee injuries:

1) Playing surfaces were improved from the old Astro Turf surface back to Natural Grass or to Super Turf, which is a synthetic turf with blades that are 5 to 6 inches long and compacted with ground up tires and tennis shoe soles. 

2) Pre-Game up warm up is no longer a bunch of guys standing around doing static stretches but if you watch your favorite team warm up it is a series of dynamic moves that incorporate both yoga & palates in a series of movements that warm up both the core and strengthen and lengthen major muscles and joints. At Athletes Performance www.athletesperformance.com (they will train approximately 15 First Round Draft Picks for the NFL Draft) They call this warm up Movement Prep which is the dynamic warm up I described above and all their athletes do this prior to competing and their injury occurrence has fallen dramatically. 

How does this correlate to our K9 athletes? Perhaps in our demands to win a 120 dog open we have breed and trained these athletes to navigate at a high rate of speed, terrain and obstacles they normally would not negotiate (Put the mark where the dog doesn’t want to go). So in a nut shell, we have breed and trained these animals to write checks their bodies may have trouble cashing. 

Couple this with the fact that most of these animals sit in a box most of the day are brought out, told to go poop, and then go off to the line cold. No warm up, no time to acclimate, nothing…….just 0 to 60 at the blink of an eye. 

If you ask me, it’s not genetic it is a combination of high drive, awkward obstacles or unnatural surfaces on the way to a mark, and an athlete that is not properly warmed up for the demands placed on their body. 

Just my $.02 worth but I think there is something to it.


RD


----------



## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Ed, 

Do you think there is anything to the claim that torn ACLs or anything of that nature is genetic?

Or are these dogs like all athletes’…human or animal…when the body is tested to the limits at some point something is going to give?


----------



## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

Forgive my ignorance,but would it be wise to regularly work your dogs with a road harness and chains once the dog has matured to build strength and muscle mass? Could this possibly prevent injuries to the knees,and other joints.?


Bryan.


----------



## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> That is incorrect and simply revisionist history with no substantiation, I was around 20 years ago, 30 years ago too, collar basic training is no different now (other than the quality of the equipment) than it was then.


 I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.


----------



## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.


 
Well when it comes to credibility Misty Marsh, EdA backs his claims up with experience. You support your opinion with second hand conversation and insults. 
Nice.


----------



## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

BryanMc said:


> Forgive my ignorance,but would it be wise to regularly work your dogs with a road harness and chains once the dog has matured to build strength and muscle mass? Could this possibly prevent injuries to the knees,and other joints.?
> 
> 
> Bryan.


 
This question is similar to my own earlier.
Someone have an answer?


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.


When your dog had a torn cruciate several years ago you didn't even know what it was. Now you had one repair and you are an expert. Another #2.


----------



## Guest (Mar 11, 2009)

windigo said:


> I don't know anything about the inheritability of cruciate ligament disease, but I do know that our dogs are the only athletes who are pulled out of a box, walked to the line, and sent off as hard as they can go with no warm up. If they are lucky, they are staked out to stand around when they are done. If they are unlucky, they are stuffed back in the same box.
> 
> Whether you are concerned with cruciate injuries, or ANY injuries, our dogs deserve better pre- and post-training care. Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs first thing each day to stretch them and warm them up. Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials, take your dog out for a 20-minute walk before she runs, and walk her around when she's done. Can't hurt, and it might help.


Great post. Although we don't have a formal pre-training warm-up, we do try to get the dogs out to air and run (at their own pace, nothing formal) prior to training, typically as we're getting the equipment off the truck/trailer.

While I do think certain dogs do have a predisposition to ACL tears (from what I understand, it correlates with the angle of the tibeal plateau), I'm sure there are some injuries caused by lack of warming up and cooling down.

Moreover... Just the MENTAL/EMOTIONAL benefits to being able to RELAX on the training field are reason enough to let them air/run before and tie them out afterwards. Plus it actually does have some training benefit in teaching the dog to be relaxed while other dogs work.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> grumpy level currently in your life.


once again you make claims with no substantiation, I could give you a long list of people who know me and deal with me on a daily basis who find me anything but "grumpy".....


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

ginger69 said:


> IMHO,
> I believe that the bad hips or hip AND the cruiciate injury on the same side IS directly related.
> I also strongly believe that young dogs are being pushed way too hard to run trials @ 12,13 months of age.You know that means these babies have gone through the basics..... These babies are still growing.
> Mentally maybe, physically?????????
> ...


I've wondered this too.... in agility, we don't even jump them until they are finished growing...


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Ed,
> 
> Do you think there is anything to the claim that torn ACLs or anything of that nature is genetic?
> 
> Or are these dogs like all athletes’…human or animal…when the body is tested to the limits at some point something is going to give?


I have no doubt that there is a genetic predisposition and perhaps some unidentified factors which contribute to the seemingly large numbers of CCL tears in Retrievers and some other athletic dogs.

In Rottweilers CCL tears are almost epidemic One could conclude that in that breed there must be a genetic predisposition. Why would this not be true in other breeds as well?

I do not believe that the incidence of CCL tears has any significant realtionship to the tasks Retrievers perform, if that were true CCL tears would be rampant in Pointers, working Border Collies, and Sled dogs.

There certainly may be some relationship to the level of physical conditioning (or lack of) because we know that exercise strengthens muscle and connective tissue and probably affects bone density too.

Not Old Or Grumpy Regards....


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

windigo said:


> Some good friends just showed me a drill Bobby George does with all his dogs first thing each day to stretch them and warm them up. Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials, take your dog out for a 20-minute walk before she runs, and walk her around when she's done. Can't hurt, and it might help.


Would you be willing to describe the drills here? I come from a horse background, and know we never ever trained without at least of 30 minutes of planned warm-up. What we be ideal for our dogs as far as a routine?

Also, I did not know you couldn't throw bumpers for the dog at trials. I thought that was ok, as long as it wasn't a training drill. Is this right?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

windigo said:


> Since you can't warm them up with bumpers at trials.


Huh?....not sure where that came from, you cannot train on the field trial grounds but tossing a bumper a few times to warm the dog up does not constitute "training", or at least it does not in my opinion


----------



## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

EdA said:


> I have no doubt that there is a genetic predisposition and perhaps some unidentified factors which contribute to the seemingly large numbers of CCL tears in Retrievers and some other athletic dogs.
> 
> In Rottweilers CCL tears are almost epidemic One could conclude that in that breed there must be a genetic predisposition. Why would this not be true in other breeds as well?
> 
> ...



That is good stuff Ed…that is why you’re a doc and I am not…I have another question…do you think it is genetically related to the breed or bloodlines within a breed or both?

Never thought of you as grumpy...you’re just not real tolerant of stupid crap.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Misty Marsh said:


> I have not been around 20+ years and offer this only becuause of the conversations that I have had with other well aged field trialers who have told me as much. It may be incorrect in your world 20-30 years ago, but to say that it's completly incorrect, revisionist with no substantiation really only shows nothing more than your age and grumpy level currently in your life.


either your other well aged FT'ers are delusional or you are unaware (read ignorant) of EdA credentials and reputation in the retriever community and Vet profession...they are above reproach....I think the only time he is grumpy is if he goes out on the town with a few well known rebel rousers named Guthrie and Mehringer and their friends Don Tesoro, Jack Daniels, and a chap named Johnnie Walker


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> …do you think it is genetically related to the breed or bloodlines within a breed or both?
> .


I vote for both, in the past we saw them sporadically and never in a young dog, especially under 1 year of age. 

The same can be said for EIC, we saw it so infrequently that it was not an issue even though we did not know what we were seeing at the time.


----------



## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I believe there is some evidence that a dog may be more prone to certain injuries before the growth plates have closed. Would seem reasonable that it could also apply to other structures that are not yet fully mature. Growth plates are supposed to close "around" a year of age, but could vary between dogs ... not always "exactly" at 12 mos; could be 13 or 14 mos for some dogs.

And, yes, in agility blown cruciates are not uncommon. And, yes, it happens to Border Collies as well as other breeds. One friend recalls the horror of watching a BC blow out in the middle of a course.

It's not a "new" thing to FT dogs. As I recall, Air Express had cruciate repair. A friend had bred to him & related that information.


----------



## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> either your other well aged FT'ers are delusional or you are unaware (read ignorant) of EdA credentials and reputation in the retriever community and Vet profession...they are above reproach....


Tell you what he may be the best thing since sliced bread in the retriever community, but that does not give anyone the right to slam other people for thier opinions, or things that they have experienced or been told on certian topics during thier life. Anyone with a hint of class could have replied in one of 100 different less abrasive ways if so inclined. I do respect his and everyone elses opinion, just not willing to roll over and be treated like that, no person above reproach.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> Anyone with a hint of class


Another in a succession of incorrect assumptions about someone you do not know........

Speaking of "grumpy".....maybe it's just the long cold Canadian winter

Neither Old Nor Grumpy Nor Classless Regards

Have a nice day!!!


----------



## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

Dr.Ed,I don't know you personally,but I think your first class(how's that for brown nosin?) I would greatly appreciate your opinion on a road harness and chains as a preventative exercise for joint and legiment injuries.

Bryan.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Misty Marsh said:


> Tell you what he may be the best thing since sliced bread in the retriever community, but that does not give anyone the right to slam other people for thier opinions, or things that they have experienced or been told on certian topics during thier life. Anyone with a hint of class could have replied in one of 100 different less abrasive ways if so inclined. I do respect his and everyone elses opinion, just not willing to roll over and be treated like that, no person above reproach.


I sure didn't see anything abrasive or classless about Dr. Ed's initial response to you nor would I have said it was a slam, man, there are some touchy people on here when their opinions are rebutted by someone who's been around the game awhile. Sure takes away from trying to follow a thread that has some interest for many people. Not to mention needlessly insulting the very ones we can learn the most from. Long, cold winter here regards,


----------



## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

Hey I've been the best behaved boy on this thred,and nobody will help me with my important question.Don't make this Canadian get cranky on your azzzz!

Frigid Canuk regards.

Bryan.


----------



## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> Tell you what he may be the best thing since sliced bread in the retriever community, but that does not give anyone the right to slam other people for thier opinions, or things that they have experienced or been told on certian topics during thier life. Anyone with a hint of class could have replied in one of 100 different less abrasive ways if so inclined. I do respect his and everyone elses opinion, just not willing to roll over and be treated like that, no person above reproach.


 



Rainmaker said:


> I sure didn't see anything abrasive or classless about Dr. Ed's initial response to you nor would I have said it was a slam, man, there are some touchy people on here when their opinions are rebutted by someone who's been around the game awhile. Sure takes away from trying to follow a thread that has some interest for many people. *Not to mention needlessly insulting the very ones we can learn the most from. *Long, cold winter here regards,


Yea, and people wonder why the most experienced and knowledgeable people just don't want to get involved.


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

BryanMc said:


> Dr.Ed,I don't know you personally,but I think your first class(how's that for brown nosin?) I would greatly appreciate your opinion on a road harness and chains as a preventative exercise for joint and legiment injuries.
> 
> Bryan.


Dr. Sherman advised us to do this with Rudy for her shoulder injury. We did it rountinely. Hard to tell how much it actually helped, but she competed till she was 10 1/2, with the help of some deramaxx.

Sure couldn't hurt. We did backpack with weights, also, and cone caveletti (sp?)


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> there are some touchy people on here when their opinions are rebutted by someone who's been around the game awhile. Sure takes away from trying to follow a thread that has some interest for many people. *Not to mention needlessly insulting the very ones we can learn the most from. *





> Yea, and people wonder why the most experienced and knowledgeable people just don't want to get involved.


Yup, pretty soon the only ones that will be here to answer questions will be the ones whose only expertise is that they can type on a keyboard and that they are expert attention seekers, kind of what happened to WRC.

Dr Ed was invited here and graciously accepted, and we appreciate his input immensely.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BryanMc said:


> I would greatly appreciate your opinion on a road harness and chains as a preventative exercise for joint and legiment injuries.


It is great physical conditioning and once Chef reaches the point in his recovery I plan to make it a regular part of his physical conditioning regimen. It probably strenghtens both muscle and connective tissue the way resistance training does as well as having some positive cardiovascular effects.

Having spoken with some human physical therapists I am concerned about loading the spine with weights (backpack) when a limb injury is involved, there are concerns about altering the gait. For a normal healthy dog I have no problem with the weighted backpack although I personally prefer weight pulling to weight carrying.

Ted's Buffy (bilateral TPLOs) has been weight pulling for one month and there is obvious improvement in her appearance and thigh muscle mass. I suspect that will become a regular part of her exercise regimen as well.

We're probably all guilty of under conditioning our dogs, depending on the exercise they get while training for conditioning and not doing enough non training related conditioning. In the days when we had nationally competitive dogs they had a regular routine of weight pulling and swimming behind a canoe.


----------



## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

Thankyou Dr.Ed.I will refer to your rehab thred for procedures.Apologies to Troubador for getting a bit off topic.


Bryan.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Doug Main said:


> Yea, and people wonder why the most experienced and knowledgeable people just don't want to get involved.


Amen. Not knocking new ones joining and asking questions or anyone debating their opinion, just, I guess, better line manners please.


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

EdA said:


> and never in a young dog, especially under 1 year of age.


Does that sway you to believe, genetics play a larger part in the disease?


----------



## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

EdA said:


> We're probably all guilty of under conditioning our dogs, depending on the exercise they get while training for conditioning and not doing enough non training related conditioning.


Training never provides enough conditioning at least in my experience. 

I'm one of those people fortunate enough to have 120 acres of hayfield right out my side door. This property works very well for winter (i.e. no snow) blind work as well as early season blind work. Since I cannot drive on the property (owner request), I walk the stakes and bumpers out to where I want them, and then walk back and get the dog. Most times, our romp out to the running spot is a 1/4 mile walk depending on how aggressive I am in planting blinds. I let the dog warm herself up along the way, and only call her to heel once we are 100 yards or so from the location. We run the blinds and then walk around picking everything up as a cool down. This field also gets used for long walks when the snow allows.


----------



## Siouxz (Apr 12, 2004)

I am getting in on this thread late but the thing that I have noticed is that if a dog is really straight or over angulated in the "hock" area, they have been far more likely to blow a crutiate. Over angulated and straight hocks cannot take the abuse of a correctly formed area. Structure (conformation) is genetic. Look at how the parents are built it will give you a good indicator as to what you might get. Of course there is also line breeding and pure outcrosses but you can tell a lot by the parents.

You can look at the way a dog moves and tell alot about how he feels or if he is compensating for an injury you may not even know he has sustained. I told Bobby that Rebel had a shoulder injury before he was ever taken to a Veterinarian and low and behold he did have a shoulder injury. He was cross-firing (horse term) when he ran. A strange gate (movement)that compensated for the injury. Just a suggestion of something to look for, if you are lucky enough to see or know both parents.

These are just my observations, but they have been useful for me.


----------



## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Creek Robber might also be producing progeny that accumulate a few AA points as well. Where is Creek Robber on the all time list now?


----------



## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

418 I think.


----------



## Vance_kaz (Nov 3, 2018)

Bringing this one back to life after 10 years or so 

There is a creek robber litter about to be on the ground in a few weeks 

Has anyone come to a conclusion on creek robber or code blue offspring with elbow issues


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Vance_kaz said:


> Bringing this one back to life after 10 years or so
> 
> There is a creek robber litter about to be on the ground in a few weeks
> 
> Has anyone come to a conclusion on creek robber or code blue offspring with elbow issues


I don't know the specific answer to your question. I do know that there is virtually no line out there that is totally healthy and has never produced any health issues. That's not to say that you should disregard potential problems - it's just to say not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Most of the lines or dogs people believe are genetically clean have skeletons in their closet.


----------



## Vance_kaz (Nov 3, 2018)

Charles C. said:


> I don't know the specific answer to your question. I do know that there is virtually no line out there that is totally healthy and has never produced any health issues. That's not to say that you should disregard potential problems - it's just to say not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Most of the lines or dogs people believe are genetically clean have skeletons in their closet.


Thanks for the response and i agree 
just wanted to see if anyone had anything else to add about Auggie and the elbow issue people have talked about in the past. 
I plan on getting a female pup out of this breeding


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Vance_kaz said:


> Thanks for the response and i agree
> just wanted to see if anyone had anything else to add about Auggie and the elbow issue people have talked about in the past.
> I plan on getting a female pup out of this breeding


Where is the litter advertised?


----------



## Vance_kaz (Nov 3, 2018)

Charles C. said:


> Where is the litter advertised?


It isnt


----------



## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

If you like the bitch, then I wouldn’t worry about it for even a second. Not many Auggie breedings anymore.


----------

