# 2.5 year old lab won't fetch/retrieve



## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

I've had a my dog for 2.5 years now. For the last couple years I've tried doing some light retrieval training with her but she always lost interest after the second throw. This year we've hit it harder and she has fought me every way possible. She cower at my side when I ask her to fetch. She'll pick up a ball and when I get excited she has one she drops it and puts her tail between her legs. She ignores bumpers completely and refuses to play fetch. I absolutely refuse to force fetch her. I believe it's in humane. I want her to love retrieving and be enthusiastic about it. 

All help and questions are welcomed.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

schmicr said:


> I've had a my dog for 2.5 years now. For the last couple years I've tried doing some light retrieval training with her but she always lost interest after the second throw. This year we've hit it harder and she has fought me every way possible. She cower at my side when I ask her to fetch. She'll pick up a ball and when I get excited she has one she drops it and puts her tail between her legs. She ignores bumpers completely and refuses to play fetch. I absolutely refuse to force fetch her. I believe it's in humane. I want her to love retrieving and be enthusiastic about it.
> 
> All help and questions are welcomed.


OMG...

Who in the hell are you? 

BTW...I do like eating animals.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Ha
Don and crew


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

Very interesting first post...


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

If you all ignore these people they will go away..


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

What's wrong with not wanting to make your dog do what you want throw stimulation but praise.


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## Rob DeHaven (Jan 6, 2003)

Buy a new dog.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

schmicr said:


> What's wrong with not wanting to make your dog do what you want throw stimulation but praise.


You are a troll big time...

Go away.


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

I do not want to crush her spirit. She is extremely fun loving.


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

I'm being serious.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> If you all ignore these people they will go away..


Ya think?
Don and crew


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

I don't. I need answers and progress. I'm determined to turn her into a great hunting companion


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

schmicr said:


> I do not want to crush her spirit. She is extremely *fun loving*.



Fun loving??? 
Keep going...the hole is getting deeper for you....Lol


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

How so? Please explain


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

Is this not forced fetch 

"In short, you pinch the dog's ear or wrap a cord around two of the dog's toes and squeeze them together. When the dog opens his mouth to protest, whether that's to vocalize or bite, you shove a wooden training dowel into his mouth and simultaneously release the ear or toe pinches."

doing this his will ruin the spirit of my dog.


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## Jared McComis (Aug 12, 2013)

How can you ruin whats not there


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

Jared McComis said:


> How can you ruin whats not there


I want to her to like doing it not feel like she has to other wise she will get that sort of stimulus.


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

Is there such ignorance here that no one cares to help? No one wants to help because I don't agree with forced fetch??


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

schmicr said:


> Is there such ignorance here that no one cares to help? No one wants to help because I don't agree with forced fetch??


No one helps because you dismiss a method that you no nothing about in favor of continuing down a path that, for the last two + years, has yielded a dog that cowers when you get excited that she chased a ball. Either you or this pup may not have what it takes.


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

captainjack said:


> No one helps because you dismiss a method that you no nothing about in favor of continuing down a path that, for the last two + years, has yielded a dog that cowers when you get excited that she chased a ball. Either you or this pup may not have what it takes.


There are no local trainers and I know I'll screw up the dog even attempting to use forced fetch. How does one reverse her cowering through applying pressure to her.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

schmicr said:


> There are no local trainers and I know I'll screw up the dog even attempting to use forced fetch. How does one reverse her cowering through applying pressure to her.


Folks...This person is playing on us...As mention above....ignore...


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

No I'm not!!! I need the help!


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

This is my first dog!! I'm an inexperienced trainer. I do not want to use forced fetch. What's wrong with that?!


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Folks...This person is playing on us...As mention above....ignore...


Don't be ignorant


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

schmicr said:


> No I'm not!!! I need the help!


OK...Would you like to buy some waterfront property from Arizona?
I might be able to help.


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> OK...Would you like to buy some waterfront property from Arizona?
> I might be able to help.


why can't I get some advice on how to train my dog just because I don't agree with a certain method.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

schmicr said:


> why can't I get some advice on how to train my dog just because I don't agree with a certain method.


It's because how you presented it in your thread.

Now sleep on it and try again tomorrow.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

Ye need to go over to Milner's site and bring ye clicker, cookies, and kumbaya with ye.

Irishwhistler


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"I'm determined to turn her into a great hunting companion."_

That's an excllent goal. Since you spent 2+ years working on fetch with a ball to no avail, you don't need to force fetch. Buy six live pigeons. Clip the flight feathers on one wing and toss them down one at a time for her to check out. Let her chase, play and maybe even eat one to draw out the hunting instincts. Make sure you do this everyday for a week. That will mean at least seven pigeons. 

At the end of this "test", you should be able to tell if hunting is a reasonable goal. Then move up. Buy some mallards and dispatch them so that you can keep them in the freezer and use often for retriever training. 

Forget the balls.....you don't need them.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Ok, I'll play; if I'm being trolled then it's no shame on me.

*Schmicr*, first you need to recognise that this forum is largely populated by people who force fetch their dogs as a matter of routine and do not consider the method inhumane. Given that, anyone who comes along and tells them that it is indeed so, isn't going to get much of a welcome. There are a few non FF trainers of which I'm one, but we have a hard row to hoe in getting the majority to even consider the validity of doing it our way. So get your head round that one.

Secondly, there are more ways of killing a cat than pulling it through the keyhole on a piece of string, so using a training scheme other than force fetch is perfectly viable and can produce a very fine retriever. However you need to educate yourself before you start on the dog, set yourself clear training goals, work to a structured plan, and give the job sufficient oomph. As an aside, some of the experienced FF trainers are deeply non enthusiastic about doing it with a dog much over six months, never mind a 2 1/2 year old. 

Now as to your problem; I/we need to know a bit more about the dog and it's training, and this bit will mostly be questions for you to answer. If you feel inhibited by your unfriendly welcome, PM me and we'll work in the background. 

Is this a dog from a working / hunting background?
Did you have it from a puppy?
How is it's basic obedience? Do you have, heel, sit, recall all solid? Below is a retriever in early training ... are you at this level?






What training regime have you been following if any? What resources do you have in video or book form?
Why is the dog cowering? Tail down? What have you or someone else done to bring this about?
How do you discipline the dog if it does wrong?
Does anyone else handle / train / discipline it?
Has it been exposed to gunfire?
Has it ever seen another dog perform a retrieve?
Has it been entered to water, can it swim? 

If there isn't a training group nearby, or an experienced mentor, then travel however far it takes. If you want to straighten this dog out it will need mental effort, hard work, money and time; sitting on your duff won't get the job done. Hours of the best intentioned of internet advice isn't worth five minutes of an experienced trainer seeing you and the dog together.

Finally, by way of encouragement, see in my post below this one the video from a small driven shoot in the UK. Look at the dog work and measure the degree of obedience and effectiveness. It can be done. (But don't kid yourself it's easy!)

Eug


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Schmicr Part II*

Non FF retrievers. Steady, quiet, no whining or yipping, just doing the job.






The retrieve around five minutes, only an FF dog can be relied upon in difficult cover to perform complex tasks. Yeah, right.

Eug


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

My dogs love to retrieve. It is the most important thing in their lives even before eating. They have been force fetched. And collar conditioned. It is not inhumane. 
You do not have to ff or cc to have a decent hunting dog. 

If you wanted help all you had to say is that I don't want to ff but not insult those that do.

Beyond that Kwicklabs gave you some good advice about awakening the prey drive. Just short of that you can put some feathers in a tennis ball. Cut a small slice in the tennis ball. Squeeze on it and the slice will open up, stick pigeon/duck feathers in opening. Release pressure on ball and hole will close on the feathers and hold in place.

Some background on your dog would be helpful. Long ago my first lab was not ff or cc. However he came from a strong hunting/ field trial background. He retrieved a ton of ducks and pheasants. 
Col Blimp also gave good advice but as he said it takes dedication. I had a friend with a dog similar to yours. I believe it was a rescue lab. When it came off the truck it displayed body language that indicated it was scared to death. Hard work, training with our group and with me turned the dog around. He was able to get a started title on the dog. So there is reason to have hope.
Having said that I have encountered a lab or two that were just good pets.

An apology would be even more helpful.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

OP, in your first post you said specifically she fights you in every way possible. Let's hear a little more about that- what does that look like- and what exactly is she fighting against- if she's not being forced or pressured I don't understand how it becomes a fight. For it to become a fight you have to say fetch or whatever- and then start doing something when she doesn't go- otherwise it's just a guy and a do standing in the yard staring at each other in disgust and contempt. What specifically is she fighting against and what form does it take?



Most of us are lost because we have dogs that like to retrieve- so making the retrieve is the reward, getting that bird or ball or bumper is the positive thing. Like when some people say sit they give there dog a trest- I say fetch- and then if they do it right they get a duck. If they don't like retrieving making them leave the house to go sit in the rain and cold to do something that scares them or that they hate is inhumane. If it were me- I'd quit tormenting and terrifying that dog and consider putting it in a home willing to treat her more fairly. Good luck to the dog.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

maybe its not the OP that needs to apologize..Ok he thinks FF is inhumane, BFD..Those that think he is a troll or question his ability or the dog's ability just because YOU believe in a set form of training don't have to engage him or be inhospitable to him..just move on..but NO, the minute someone comes on here and challenges the current status quo in dog training, you claim blasphemy, how dare you question our core values of dog training, its almost like religion,just because someone doesn't attend the same church you do,it doesn't mean they are any more or less religious than you. They just believe in different things.

Many of you here on the RTF, wrongly assume that everyone trains the same way that you do.If that were the case then how come everyone doesn't have the same FC AFC's, its not because you're not getting the same pups, you all follow the same programs, watch the same DVD's 

Instead of going into attack mode, how about not answering since you don't have a viable solution to his problem

To the OP; I will offer this help: a dog can be made to be a solid retriever without FF however at 2.5 yrs of age you are really handicapped on what methods may work for you since the dog has not shown the desire or aptitude to accomplish the simplest of basic skill sets. Your best bet is to go to square one with basic OB work and see if the dog is trainable. If the dog refuses to even do those schoolyard tasks then you are in essence wasting your time and resources getting him to do retriever work

Getting a dog to retrieve is not a one step cure all trick, if thats what you are looking for. The use of live birds may show or expose the dog's birdiness and instinctive ability, it may also show that you have a dog uninterested in being a retriever


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

OP, we don't know you from Adam which isn't unusual, we get new people on here all the time asking for advice with their new pup. The thing that looks suspicious is that you managed to hit a number of hot buttons in your very first post. All I can do is base my response on the assumption that you're sincere.

If your post is true, my suggestion would be to let your 2 1/2 year old dog be what he or she is, it's clearly not hunting dog. I'm a proponent of FF, but in this case I agree with you, you can't force a dog to do something it doesn't want to do. I think you are just one of the unlucky few who's dog lacks the inner drive to retrieve that provides the base upon which we build a retriever. I'm a firm believer in the need for all of us to objectively recognize and understand the dog we have, not the dog we wish we had. Your issues won't be solved by an argument over force fetching, so there is no reason even talking about it. If you love this dog, find something he likes to do, tracking, agility, therapy, just being a pet and nurture that. If you still want a good hunting dog, do some research, search our classifieds and buy a pup out of strong field lines.
I hope this helps, if you're just playing us along, oh well...


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Of course he is playing us. A man has enough intelligence to understand what FF and toe hitch is and yet not able to see his dog as a pet? Come on... Call it like you see it. I understand not every person use ff. I questioned whether I should use it on my current pup. We have approached it slowly,because of her mild nature. She is progressing thru it nicely. By the way. But this guy is poking.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Bon, It was the context of the whole post that struck me as odd, not just the ff comment. An apology would indicate to me if he was sincere or just playing us. Comeon man, trying to get a dog to retrieve a tennis ball for 2 1/2 years without success.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

I usually don't jump on the bashing band wagon as I have been the bashee. But yeah, this one is weird.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Bon, It was the context of the whole post that struck me as odd, not just the ff comment. An apology would indicate to me if he was sincere or just playing us. Comeon man, trying to get a dog to retrieve a tennis ball for 2 1/2 years without success.


I agree, that post and the post title pushes so many hot buttons and seems so over the top, it has to be fake. But in the off chance that it is sincere, I offered advise.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Me too John.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

It's like a parody of some of the new posts we get here every so often. Next someone will post a question about their dog being bit by a rattlesnake then run over by a truck before eating poison, then rather than racing to the nearest vet, they waste time posting a question on an internet forum about what they should do.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Excellent video Eug. Thanks for posting. 
Don and crew


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## Rocketcityretrievers (Apr 10, 2014)

Try birds to stimulate prey drive. That usually works! If not suitable for you try a tennis ball tends to stimulate the dogs visual reactivity!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Non FF retrievers. Steady, quiet, no whining or yipping, just doing the job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice video Eug. Do you guys always have elevenses after just one drive ?


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

schmicr said:


> All help and questions are welcomed.


There are only 2 questions here that really matter and they're both related:

1. What is the dog's pedigree? 

2. What happens when you throw a live crippled bird down in front of her?

There are a lot of techniques and ideas for building drive, but first you'd have to know if there is a fire inside that can be kindled.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

ks_hunting said:


> There are only 2 questions here that really matter and they're both related:
> 
> 1. What is the dog's pedigree?
> 
> ...


Pedigree can be misleading, I have seen great dogs with nothing pedigrees and total duds with great pedigrees.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> It's like a parody of some of the new posts we get here every so often. Next someone will post a question about their dog being bit by a rattlesnake then run over by a truck before eating poison, then rather than racing to the nearest vet, they waste time posting a question on an internet forum about what they should do.


John, personally I'm thinking this is all a concoction by Colonel Blimp to deflect attention away from Aston Villa's abysmal FA Cup Final showing v. the Arse, all the while letting Eug rabbit on about something positive in his patch, the virtues of British Labs. That said, his former outfit when he was in "our" patch - the American Hunting Dog Club - would no doubt advocate use of negative reinforcement by reminding Eug that at least the Villa avoided the drop (relegation). Long live Tim Sherwood! - or at least let him live four or five matches into the 2015-'16 Premiership season before he gets the sack. I'm sure Glenda will be along shortly for footie analysis and survival strategy from a Liverpudlian perspective.

MG


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

You noticed the OP disappeared at the first mention of real birds?


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

I have not disappeared. I went to sleep and dropped it. My outside life took a better hold on my judgement and wording and came across as very harsh. For that I'm sorry. Secondly. Being a new trainer and reading so many articles about FF led me to believe that it was a dishonorable practice due to the method. For that I am sorry. I'm currently at work and will take this post down and start over tonight.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

If I jumped to conclusions about this post, I am sorry.


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## Ethompson63 (Sep 13, 2013)

Everyone is pushing force fetch but to me if she has no desire to retreive force fetching won't do much. She might retrieve but with no desire it's pointless


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Mike,

Quite right!! 

An abysmal season, but as cousine Carole says supporting the Baggies or the Villa is at least character building. I hae ma doots about young Timmy, as you know I wanted yer man Poulis, but with Lampwick still at the helm we would have undoubtedly gone down. Now we've got an off season of being sold ... or not. As yer Chinaman has it "May you live in interesting times."

Eug


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> You noticed the OP disappeared at the first mention of real birds?


Having returned five times and being kicked five times most dogs won't come back on the whistle!

Eug


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Ethompson63 said:


> Everyone is pushing force fetch but to me if she has no desire to retreive force fetching won't do much. She might retrieve but with no desire it's pointless


I don't think a single person has advocated that!! Anyone who has any experience training retrievers would not advocate to FF a dog that has no drive. We must have a reward for working (like many of us get paychecks). If there is no reward then it is called slavery. Like everyone on this forum, my dogs do the work because they love it. I do use force based training to polish and put the "work" behavior in there, but they love the reward of the retrieve. Without a retrieve being a reward there is no reason to attempt formal training. 

Agree with many others. Take a pigeon pull out flight feathers and tie the feet, toss it in the air right in front of the dog, and sit back and watch for 30 min. If she has no interest in it for the entire duration or runs away from it, you need to accept the dog for what it is. It will never be a working retriever. If the dog has interest in the bird, tries to bat at it, bark at it, do anything to engage with it...you have something to work with. 

After you have done this, if she has interest in the bird then come back and let us know. Then we can provide some assistance.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

No need to remove the thread, .... carry on . but to learn one must be open to learning.
Sometimes dogs are just pets and not hunting dogs. Try the live birds and if the spark is not there let her be a happy couch dog and start over


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ethompson63 said:


> Everyone is pushing force fetch but to me if she has no desire to retreive force fetching won't do much. She might retrieve but with no desire it's pointless


No, everyone pretty much agrees with your assessment that FF or no FF is pointless with this dog. The OP seems to be misguided in his understanding of FF, but it's really irrelevant with a dog that after 2 1/2 years, "fighting" him every step of the way, clearly doesn't enjoy the retrieving game. Personally I believe in FF and don't think it's inhumane in the least, but I know that most dogs can be trained to a high level without it, it's just harder.


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## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Interesting thread... Depending on a new trainers search of force fetch information, it isn't hard to see where they may be led to believe it's barbaric and inhumane. There are plenty of other sites and forums out there that portray FF as such. If they ends their search and fail to truly research and explore the methods and idea behind force fetch them you probably have this scenario. 

If the OP is after a hunting companion, he/she may need to change/alter their views of training in general. I am a first time trainer and inexperienced at that... I can tell you I was never around a true working dog or even a very well trained dog except on a couple guided pheasant hunts. I had to completely change my view of my dog. 

It would be great if you dog did everything you wanted, when you wanted, and smiling the whole time... Won't happen. Even the most seasoned dogs will still be dogs. They hunt/retrieve for you... Not for themselves. The trick is having a dog that loves doing the work... They live to get the bumper or bird, that is their reward, they please you... In return, they get to be with you, in the field, blind, or at the line. 

I sympathize with the OP because I was there... I was lucky enough to get help quickly and my pup was crazy about retrieving... Which caused other problems for me. 

Thread may have been a rough intro but hoping all parties can learn from it. Some of us newbies are very green and truly don't understand the process and why. As Rick Smith explained... "You're going to make mistakes... It's not that you do it intentionally... You just don't know any better!"


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

After two days with No food and you throw a bone if it doesn't go pick it up it ain't a dog .
Regards


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Lifes too short to train a dog that doesn't want to be trained. I would have traded that one in a while ago


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

schmicr said:


> Is there such ignorance here that no one cares to help? No one wants to help because I don't agree with forced fetch??


Yep, lot of ignorance on this site. If I choose to believe you are not being the biggest troll of all times I would suggest another, perhaps positive reinforcement only, site. It's tough for us because all our dogs hate us and hate what they do.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm a 2.5 year dog doesn't like to retrieve a ball, my first dog thinks retrieving a ball is pretty pointless, & bumpers are Ho-hum. However, Anything with warm-body or feathers on it, now those require attention. If your serious about making any dog a hunting companion the dog must have prey drive. Get the dog on some real birds, or get the dog a clip wing, judge the dogs reaction to it. If the dog wants to chase-pickup and or eat that bird, you have a chance of making a hunting companion out of it. However, if the dog has no use for bumpers and you want to train with bumpers your most likely going to have to FF the dog in some manner. If not you'll have to train with birds. If the dog cares nothing for a live bird or feathers, the only hunting companion you might be able to make of it is one that sits in the blind and helps you eat your sandwiches. Yes you can train even this type of dog, to retrieve however you'd both be much happier if you just let her be the dog she is.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Just because the name says "retriever" does not make one a gun dog. There are many labs in the suburbs that can care less about retrieving.


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

John Robinson said:


> Pedigree can be misleading, I have seen great dogs with nothing pedigrees and total duds with great pedigrees.


Completely true, but surely you agree that you hedge your bet greatly by using the pedigree. 

Expectations are based at least partly (if not mostly) on blood.

For example: if the dog is a AFC/FC x MH bred pup and doesn't want to retrieve my first thought would be the dog is physically injured or has learned retrieving is bad.

For example: if the dog is a CH x CH bred pup and doesn't want to retrieve my first thought would be to brush it's coat and let it lay on the couch.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

ks_hunting said:


> Completely true, but surely you agree that you hedge your bet greatly by using the pedigree.
> 
> Expectations are based at least partly (if not mostly) on blood.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, I just didn't think it was one of only two big questions to ask. My experience running Golden Retrievers in a Lab dominated world and having been around all three breeds for 20+ years is that getting a field dog pedigree in Goldens is paramount toward success as a hunting dog, but less important with Labs. To put it another way, I Believe that your odds of making a nice hunting dog out of a back yard bred Golden are toward slim, where 90% of back yard bred labs will be at least decent. The OP was in the unlucky 10%. Picking a well bred field trial-hunt test Lab makes it more like 99% chance of a good hunting retriever.


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the comments. Work was long today. Lengthy reply coming tomorrow.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*schmicr,

*We look forward to it. 

Thinking about this overnight and reviewing your posts, I think those who are advocating the use of a few live birds to judge wether the dog has any retrieving desire might well be on the wrong track. Without seeing you and the dog together it's very difficult to judge, but all the behaviour described, cowering, tail down, "fighting all the way" doesn't sound like a dog with no desire to me, but one that is showing fear of even being asked to retrieve. I've worked on dogs with no visible sign of a retrieve, and that isn't what they do; they just fart about. Your dog may well not have any desire, but I'll bet 7 to 2 that isn't the root cause of the behaviour shown, there's something else been going on.

The symptoms seem to me to be a learned negative response to the retrieving situation, not merely a possible lack of instinct. In the dogs head it may thinking the equivalent of "Bugger this for a game of soldiers, I know what's coming and I don't bloody like it" rather than "Charming weather for the time of year, a nice day for a stroll in the country". 

In short there's a prima facie case for supposing that the animal has been under considerable mental or physical stress already, e-collar and FF notwithstanding.

Let's see.

Eug


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Where do you hail from?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Good observation Col. It is a bit puzzling. Maybe his next response will clear some things up.

By the way in your post 52, what did you say? We're you speaking in a foreign language or a code I need to decipher? Just kidding!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

One of the joys of dog training, hunting and running our well trained dogs in trials or hunt test is the obvious sheer joy the dogs show. Training dogs is hard and can be mysterious at times, but it should always be enjoyable for both dog and handler, my dogs are so amped up and excited to train that sometimes that is the motivating factor in getting me out the door to train, even though I'm exhausted from work. 

Forcing a dog to train that fights me every step is no fun for me or the dog. I know we all hit obstacles that require force, and a session here or there will be uncomfortable, but even at that my dogs are raring to train next time out. You have the dog you have and I believe every dog has value and there is some job that dog will naturally enjoy, even if it's just loving the people around him. There is no point in beating your head against the wall trying to make your dog be something he's not. I'm reminded of a great Lou Holst quote from his Notre Dame days. A reporter asked him how he motivated his players to play so hard. He said he didn't motivate players that much, he only recruited self motivated player that loved the game.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> We're you speaking in a foreign language or a code I need to decipher?


Both!!

It was in Soccerese for a start, but with Birmingham (the proper one, not your one ) inflexions and a bit of verbal shorthand. Your incomprehension does you credit, any outsider who can understand the rubbish Mike and I pass to each other has clearly got something gravely wrong with them!

Eug


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## schmicr (Jun 3, 2015)

So where to begin. 

She was bought from a store not a breeder. 
Her first summer was getting her over being gun shy and loving water 
her second summer was getting her to love water and start basic retrievals. 
This summer we started hitting the bumper retrievals hard and she has had no interest. Shes never been one for playing fetch she would rather play tug of war with a rope. We taught her some basic obedience. She doesn't eat until told to. She doesn't get out of a vehicle until we say ok. She will sit on the tailgate of my truck and anxiously watch other dogs retrieve but won't budge unless I let her. 

We havenet tried live birds but she did go after some baby rabbits. We took her out hunting a couple times with my last dog(recently deceased) and she wanted to do the retrieve and got jealous. 

Its I'm there somewhere just don't know how to bring it out. 

Tonight a a friend and I took his dog and mine and we threw just a ball for them. She had a blast beat the other dog a few times and brought it right back. 

I can add more of a background if needed. Just a lot of comments and questions to shuffle through.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Schmicr,
Lorie Jolly has a book titled Motivational Training for the Field. I believe it can be ordered off her website. If I remember, that is rosehillretrievers.com
If that isn't right you should be able to google it and come up with the URL.
The book gives tips on teaching a trained retrieve, not force fetch, as well as positive ways to motivate a retriever.
I hope that helps.
Good luck.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I received and answered your private message. 

Chris


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Hillman has some free videos on building drive. Search on internet for Bill Hillman.

Drag racing your dog and another finished retriever sometimes will also bring out drive. Best done with birds. Make sure the other dog is not a fighter. This technique turned on the light for my Shadow.
Sharon Potter can explain this technique better than me. But put dog in a crate. Then put a quail in the crate with dog. Leave both in crate for a long time. Eventually dog will eat quail and come out birdy. This really works.

But you haven't tried birds yet. I would hold off on the quail trick until you first try a more traditional approach with birds. 

Good luck.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> She was bought from a store not a breeder.
> Her first summer was getting her over being gun shy and loving water


What exactly did you do to get her over being gun shy? The usual order is getting them birdy and retrieving and then intoduce the gun at the same time as the throw. Getting them over gunfire first means you introduced noise and not a reason for the noise, so it is unpleasant so the whole retrieving thing becomes unpleasant. 

Obtaining the puppy from a store is not in her favor. Introduction with live birds is the only real hope you have, but if there's nothing there, it would probably be best to make her a pet and start with a dog that is from parents that are birdy and hunters and introduce live birds before they are a year old.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

We usually get the retrieve happening right away. Day one. First thing- because what's the point of all the other stuff if the dog isn't any good. No sense training all Tha stuff if they won't pick up a bird.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

You need to get around some retriever people. Tell us approx where you are and you'll receive lots of options.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

schmicr said:


> So where to begin.
> 
> She was bought from a store not a breeder.
> Her first summer was getting her over being gun shy and loving water
> ...


schmicr, where are you located? Maybe one of us could help you evaluate your dog. I'm sure you love her and want what's best for her, what turns her on? I hate to say it, but based on your comments about her strict obedience, you might be squashing her a bit. Usually we get newbies with the opposite problem, out of control dogs, but an over emphasis on control, especially with a low drive dog can be a problem too. I know it might not be what you want to hear, but if want a nice hunting companion, you might need two dogs in your house. This one to be a beloved pet and a new better bred field dog to be her best buddy and your hunting dog. I'm sure you've figured it out by now, but buying a dog from a pet store is probably the worst thing you could do. Take a look at the classifieds on RTF to whet your appetite and educate yourself a bit. 

BTW, you don't have to FF to train a retriever to a high level, but many of us believe it is the fairest way to teach a dog how to handle training pressure. In most of the programs we use, FF is not meant to make the dog retrieve, that should be built into the dog from birth, the purpose of FF is teaching the dog that he or she has control of the pressure and how to turn it off. It's just a training tool.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

There's a few articles in here that may be of some help. As it appears you have done OB with the dog, it might be better if you start looking at "Force fetching" as more of a "trained retrieve". Fetch is an OB command, that often times needs to be trained and developed. Now there is "force" in these methods, but doesn't mean you can't adapt the techniques to something your comfortable with. . 

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/

My gut instinct tells me you need to get her on birds, and develop her drive.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

schmicr said:


> I have not disappeared. I went to sleep and dropped it. My outside life took a better hold on my judgement and wording and came across as very harsh. For that I'm sorry. Secondly. Being a new trainer and reading so many articles about FF led me to believe that it was a dishonorable practice due to the method. For that I am sorry. I'm currently at work and will take this post down and start over tonight.


 OK now comes the answer from you, and the answer and some excuse from you. 
Sorry…It doesn’t pan out. 
You came to this site of all sites or forums to claim that FF was INHUMANE and then wonder why the response.
Rude waking wakening wasn’t it? Maybe a lesson learned or at least hope so….

On a side note: If I told my mentor that FF was inhumane, I would no longer be with the group and would have lost a lot of knowledge. 
Those out there that contemplating asking questions, please do your homework on this site. 

It will benefit you and not insult others.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

If you bought a dog from a pet store that is your first mistake...... If you want a dog to do something, buy a dog from parents that do that thing you want your dog to do. There is no telling what the parents of your dog do, my guess would be they don't retrieve ducks.

Find a retriever group, get to know them, do some research and get a new puppy. If the dog doesn't have natural retrieve desire you will spend more time trying to get it to be a below average hunting dog then what it would take to make a well bred dog an exceptional one.


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

Been an interesting thread for sure. I think there more issues at hand here behind the scenes here than we all know. but just my own observation reading the OP's statements...im paraphrasing here instead of direct quotes but this is what I have.....cowering, tail between the legs, happy dog but no retrieve desire. Then another post where the dog wont eat unless told, wont play with other dogs until told, etc. sure OB is good. But there has to be a balancing act. 

My guess would be that the dog has seen too much enforcement of the rules and not enough time to enjoy the rewards of retrieving. Too strict if you will. Most any retriever will show some desire to retrieve unless the drive has been "taken out of them". Of out of balance as some say.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> Folks...This person is playing on us...As mention above....ignore...


BJG, maybe it is time to do as you suggested.

To the original poster. I responded to your private message you sent me the first night you posted here.

I have also sent you an email.

You have my phone number and I'm willing to talk live.

Thanks, Chris


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*schmicr*,

The offers you've had of hands-on help are absolute gold dust, for heavens sake don't let them slip through your fingers. 

What we've learned so far is that whatever you've been doing doesn't work so the first thing you need to do is to stop doing it. Dogs get gun shy from wrong headed training, dogs cower from wrong headed training, dogs fight you from wrong headed training. If you think you can see a pattern developing here you're right, so stop doing it and take up the offers of assistance.

As to the dogs qualities, potential or developing, I don't buy all the flannel about pet stores and pedigrees; you've got what you've got and you are where you are. The good news is that from your follow-up remarks I would not say the animal has no desire; if it runs out and fetches something back as you describe then the retrieving instinct is clearly there and you've got something to work with. I've started from a poorer base than that and got a fair result.

You've had a bashing and an earwigging in here in my view unfairly, and I suspect your dog is in the same position. I doubt you've enjoyed it very much but probably she hasn't either. I can only implore you to give yourself and her a second chance and get one of the more experienced folk in here to assess you both and work out a forward plan. You'd be nuts to turn the offers down.

Eug


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *schmicr*,
> 
> The offers you've had of hands-on help are absolute gold dust, for heavens sake don't let them slip through your fingers.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with every single comment made by Colonel Eug,

Well, I don't know the part about him having a worse dog, but I am confident that he, as a long time experienced dog man, knows how to turn the pup around into a reasonable compromise. The goal: To channel what pup wants in combination with what the dog wants. 

That's dog training - finding the compromise between what dog wants and what trainer wants. Some of the best looking trainers are those who already have dogs that do what they both want. If the dog already wants it, it is a pretty low stress approach to get both parties to the happy spot. 

Schmicr did get some understandable, but pretty crummy snaps. Hey, when a new pup comes into the pack some of the personalities are going to do that - expecially if they perceive that the pup's out of line. The ball's in schmicr's court to make a play - if the true desire is to try and turn this dog around.

Red flags that I've picked up on, other than the obvious: There have been two posts by schmicr about "hitting it hard" on bumper retrieves. Meanwhile the pup apparently doesn't want to do more than one retrieve before wanting to stop. I suspect that the definition of "hitting it hard" may be a clue in some of the other behaviors.

Schmicr has a private message and an email from me.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Schmicr,

I wish you the best.

My offer stands. 

I put a good bit of effort into a private email, to which you replied:

"I've received it."

The reason some greeted you with the somewhat rude seeming responses, is that others have come on the scene here, similar to the way you did, and have turned out to make well-intending folks feel that they've wasted their time trying to help.

I've tried to help as have others.

The main reason that I chose to wade into this, was that you sent me a complaint via PM the first night that you joined and posted.

Good luck. Chris


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