# do you believe in pick of litter?



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Is POL important to you? Is it important to you to be close to the top of the list? Or is POL just our way of making ourselves feel good? LOL

How many people here believe that they have better odds with 'pick of litter' pup? (or pick female/pick male)

I know there have been a number of very good (great) dogs that were last pick...

In the end, would you turn down buying a pup because he/she was the last pup?

Juli


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## Jerry D Herring (Feb 25, 2009)

i wouldnt but i have had great results in POL have had two different dogs that were POL. Maverick is one and he has great potential. and josh my JRT was also. so it just depends on the owner i dont think it really matters.


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## MikeB (Jan 9, 2009)

I would certainly prefer to look at the whole litter before making my pick. I do several temperament tests at 6, 7, 8 weeks old before making my pick. I have done it many times for friends and clients and twice for me and have never very pleased with my pick.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

"Picking Of Litter" is important - pick the breeding and the hope for the best


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

I prefer "picking the litter and breeder". I have had best luck having the breeder pick the pup that is the best for what I want to do with the pup. I think the breeder know's the most about the pups and I trust them to pick the pup for me.


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## Eddie Sullivan (Jul 10, 2005)

Just as FOM stated, pick your breeding and get yourself a pup. Develope that pup to the fullest of your ability and I don't think it matters how many went before yours.
________
CHEAP VAPORIZERS


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

My best dogs were the only one available. People obsess over this way too much and they pick for the strangest reasons. The last pup is often the one I really like so that person who says I don't care if he's last often gets the best one.


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## Chris Rosier (Dec 27, 2008)

I agree with Erin. The best dog I ever had was the last one left in the litter


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> My best dogs were the only one available. People obsess over this way too much and they pick for the strangest reasons. The last pup is often the one I really like so that person who says I don't care if he's last often gets the best one.


 
LOL - that is funny, but probably true! 


I liken it to people that HAVE to have a pup by the latest stud du jour, without giving thought to the dam and what she brings to the table or if the breeding is a good match for them....

Some people just think they are getting the best if they are first in line....

Juli


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

My golden was pick of the litter by her breeder/ my friend. She chose her as though she were keeping her herself. Which she kind of was. We co own her and she will use her to continue her line IF she passes all health tests at 2 and turns out nice. So I got pick of the litter for free! My Wolfhound was a choice between the only two females and I picked the one that was the most outgoing. I personally could care less just as long as I get one out of the litter I have chosen.


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## Jake Lunsford (Jun 15, 2008)

I like POL just because I can get the pup that I think is prettiest. I really don't think that it matters. I just like to get a pretty one. Labs all look the same to me when they are little, but hounds differ quite a bit in color, so I like to get there as soon as i can so i don't get stuck with a ticked up dog when i wanted a solid colored one.


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## HeavenSent (Dec 16, 2008)

I am new to all of this but, I now believe in having a pup picked for me that is best for what I want to do with the dog. My pup was picked for me and I wasn't even seriously looking. My friend knew the parents,the breeder and the litter and that "someday" I might be looking for another dog for specific reasons. Soon after my pup was born, she mentioned her to me and said she thought she'd be perfect for me. She kept track of her for me and I ended up getting her in the end. She is exactly what I would have wanted ( and more ) but probably I never would have done as well on my own.


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> I prefer "picking the litter and breeder". I have had best luck having the breeder pick the pup that is the best for what I want to do with the pup. I think the breeder know's the most about the pups and I trust them to pick the pup for me.


This is exactly how I feel.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> My best dogs were the only one available. People obsess over this way too much and they pick for the strangest reasons. The last pup is often the one I really like so that person who says I don't care if he's last often gets the best one.


This is so true--all of them are a gamble. I do think some very experienced breeders can evaluate correct conformation and which ones are going to be structurally the nicest, but even they admit things can change and they're wrong as often as they're right. I really don't think you can tell much about their field aptitude when they're babies. They still don't even see very well beyond 20 feet at 7 weeks!

Every litter that I've sworn I wasn't keeping one, I still end up holding back my favorite and by the time they're 7 or 8 weeks, decide I will only sell it if the perfect home comes along. This is the pup I liked best from my last litter, which was overall very uniform in size, type and disposition; no bully and no shrinking violet. Half were brown and half were ash. Two other experienced people looked at the litter and also noticed this one right away, so that made me feel pretty good. 









With my Jan. litter I had a ton of interest in the females, but I made the decision not to sell any until they were old enough to evaluate. I kept a list of interested people, but I didn't take "picks". Right along with someone who insists on picking or demands "Hey! I was third pick", are the ones who are looking for exactly the type breeding you have, but won't even consider your puppy "because he's the only male left" so they think there must be something wrong with him.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

I've had POL a couple times but would have been happy with the last pup If it were out of the sire and dam I really wanted a pup out of.

One of the times I had pol The owner of the litter called me and said the guy who had 2nd pic wanted to pick his pup a couple days before the pick date because of his work schedule if it wouldn't bother me. I told the owner that it was fine with me. So I ended up with my libby girl and am tickled to death with her .

I say treat the last pick pup the same as you would the first pick and you will be very happy.


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## DrCharlesBortellPhD (Sep 27, 2008)

Julie

"I do think some very experienced breeders can evaluate correct conformation and which ones are going to be structurally the nicest, but even they admit things can change and they're wrong as often as they're right. I really don't think you can tell much about their field aptitude when they're babies. They still don't even see very well beyond 20 feet at 7 weeks!"

Agree!! Considering every aspect can change, color, personality, temperament, etc, a selection on any pup is basically an "educated guess"
(based by experience, previous litters, etc, but still a guess).
Also I think selection boils down to "Potentials" of a pup. Judging on what the pup could be, and not what it will be (unfortunately some breeders confuse this idea and feel pup xyz will be "the it".).

What the pup becomes ultimately will be determined by the new owner.
Training, or lack of, experience, and intended usage all play a part.

Charlie


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

I don't think having the Pick of the Litter matters but being in the top half does. out of a litter of say 7, if you are the first three you will be fine I think. At eight weeks it really is hard to pick the best but you can avoid the pups with issues either physical or social.


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## MSDOGS1976 (Mar 7, 2009)

Here's how it went for me. I answered an ad in the paper. Basically a backyard breeder. The breeder said this was the 2nd litter from his golden retriever and he gave me a couple of references from the first litter. I called and both references were happy. So I go to the breeders house and he shows me all the pups. All were beautiful and I said just give me a female. He picked one up and said here you go. He signed over the papers, I paid him and I was on my merry way. Eight years later I couldn't be more happy with my girl.

Not a very scientific way of making a pick, but this was my first dog since I was a kid. Pretty green behind the ears and I got lucky. Next time I plan to try and rescue a lab or golden. Seems like I always see one of the two available in my area. Plus I would just as soon skip the puppy stage.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Its a bit of a lottery?
The only way I have done it in the last 30 years ,is pick up a pup at around 8 weeks old ,roll it away from you on the ground! and if it comes back for more! then it has picked me?
so far,no failures


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Nate_C said:


> I don't think having the Pick of the Litter matters but being in the top half does. out of a litter of say 7, if you are the first three you will be fine I think. At eight weeks it really is hard to pick the best but you can avoid the pups with issues either physical or social.


If I were looking at a litter where I thought there might be issues with half the pups, I would look for a different litter. In my last three litters, I've had two pups that I felt were probably not suited to be competition and/or hunting dogs: one was a little timid and one seemed born to watch tv. I made sure these pups went into pet families. However, I suspect that with training both would also have been strong in the field. One of the best reasons for picking (and paying for) an outstanding litter is to increase the likelihood that all the pups will have the potential to be successful and healthy with proper training and care.


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## Norene S. (Feb 23, 2003)

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> I prefer "picking the litter and breeder". I have had best luck having the breeder pick the pup that is the best for what I want to do with the pup. I think the breeder know's the most about the pups and I trust them to pick the pup for me.


Works for me!

Norene S.


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## George C. Tull (Aug 25, 2006)

My, now, 21 mo. old 'Trip'...Ten Bears Road Trip pup was one of two left over in the litter. Got him when he was 4 mo. old from the breeder. We're running HRC Seasoned level now and feel very confident to be running SH and Finished this Fall. He's a freight train, hard going, go get'er. ;-) Couldn't be happier.


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## smytyk (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm not real concerned about pick order. When I got my lab, I knew I wanted a female. She ended up being the last one and seems to have the potential to be a good hunting dog. I just have to make the time to get her going good. When I got my beagle, I ended up getting first choice because of schedules. The stud's owner had already chosen his dog, but it wasn't a big deal because he likes big beefy dogs and I like slimmer dogs that fit through smaller holes in the brush. I didn't have enough experience to make a good choice yet, so I told the breeder what I was looking for and she gave me suggestions of which ones she thought would be the best rabbit hunting dogs and I chose my male based on his markings. He's turned into everything I want him to be and am thinking about breeding him.


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## smytyk (Apr 7, 2008)

Sorry, hit the wrong button before I finished. I don't think it matters which pick you get as long as the breeding is good and you get the gender you're looking for.


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## brian lewis (Jun 6, 2005)

pick of the litter is a relative term

If Im buying doesn't matter

If im selling its got to be worth more.

just kidding


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## Loren Crannell (Apr 12, 2008)

I first choose the litter, and the breeder. If I have POL, then I look for the one dog that picks me. It doesn't hurt if the dog wants to be with you.

On my last dog, I had last choice and I couldn't be happier. I had the last female and we had wanted a female, but the last unpicked male was so attentive and we bonded immediately. I made the right decision because he is such a great dog. I'm glad nobody else picked him.

With EIC dew claw testing, the POL can get pretty heated. 

Loren


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I had the last pups they have all but one been QAA MH or better.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Hi

I would select the pedigree I wanted, and decide if I wanted M or F. Order of pick would not determine my decision to get pup. 


Regards
Jeff
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I've found that traits puppies demonstrates early on remain with them too some degree for life. 

If the opportunity avails itself , the litter is a good place for comparison and selection.............

john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

sky_view said:


> Is POL important to you? Is it important to you to be close to the top of the list? Or is POL just our way of making ourselves feel good? LOL
> 
> How many people here believe that they have better odds with 'pick of litter' pup? (or pick female/pick male)
> 
> ...


Pick of litter is fun for many. I actually think that, other than the coordination and managing all the "people issues", it can be fun for the breeder. There certainly are variations in personalities and traits among the litter. A good breeder, who's doing a good socialization job, knows who's who in the litter.

These generalized traits may or may not carry through to adulthood. 

But, it's fun. I'd say that "It Depends" (LVL) on refusing to buy the last pup. If the last pup is the one that's half the size, has one eye half-closed, and walks sideways, then it may not be the ideal pup for some.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Every time I've bought a puppy, I've been fortunate to have 1st pick and also have had the opportunity to puppy-test the entire litter.

In my experience, having 1st pick has worked out very well.


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

jeff t. said:


> Every time I've bought a puppy, I've been fortunate to have 1st pick and also have had the opportunity to puppy-test the entire litter.
> 
> In my experience, having 1st pick has worked out very well.


Yes, but in order to see if that theory holds up, you would need to see how the last pick in each of those litters turned out.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> If I have POL, then I look for the one dog that picks me. It doesn't hurt if the dog wants to be with you.


This is what I see most-the pup that picks the person or the pup that reminds them of their own dog. That is fine if that's what you are happy with; however, that guy that is busy investigating isn't picked, and he is the one left, and he is the one that sometimes I keep because he is bold and an independent thinker and the one that comes to you and sits on your lap may be the adult couch potato. Just something to think about when picking. It's not a popularity contest for the picker.

Remember, if you have a good litter so much more depends on the raw material you take home and how you train them, and how much a team player they will become. I like eye contact and birdiness.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I believe pick of the litter is a fine thing from a number of perspectives, but nearly, if not, meaningless in terms of the pup's working potential.


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## Lock5Labs (Mar 21, 2009)

Just close your eyes and pick one?


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I can see physical things about a seven week old puppy that carry on into adulthood. My male dog had long back legs as a puppy and he still does. My female dog looked like my male dog in the face and still does although she is smaller.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

dixidawg said:


> Yes, but in order to see if that theory holds up, you would need to see how the last pick in each of those litters turned out.


Of the litters evaluated and purchased a pup, the last picks were either washed out or were never in a position to know if they reached their potential.

The OP asked if the reader believed in pick of litter. 

My answer is that I strongly prefer it.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> it can be fun for the breeder


I can't think of anything "less fun" to do. Matching puppies with their owners can be excruciating, especially when you've got a lot of folks wanting competition prospects. Talk about pressure!


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I can't imagine Melanie - doesn't sound like fun to me!.....Talk about tough..

One thing I've noticed about the conversation that we've had so far is that folks here pick their pups based on personality and 'field' ability traits (birdiness, prey drive) - No surprise there..LOL. Conformation has not really come up at all, with regards to POL puppy. I am not talking 'show conformation' - just overall good working conformation.

Juli


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

I do believe in POL. But what is POL for one person, may be different to another. 
For instance for a conformation person, POL will have the best conformation and show attitude.

For a field trialer it will be about the working ability.

The all arounder(field/show person) will take the best conformation dog with the best working ability. Which may mean taking a more "middle" pup. The one who is not knock-out beautiful but but lacks desire or the ugly but super talented pup.. Occasionally one gets lucky and gets both.

For a pet person, POL is the dog that fits their family lifestyle. 

Now sometimes what you see is not what you get in the end.
I had a singleton litter 3 years ago. Super working pedigree. Sire is a FC.
Dam extremely drivey and very good looking.
The pup by 5 months old looked nice from the side. But he was crooked in front (one of the worst easty-west, twisty fronts I have ever seen) and cow-hocked in the back and undershot bite AND would amble out to a bumper no more than a few yards and then after about the 3rd retrieve would just want to lay around and cuddle... At a year old this same dog is clean in front, clean behind -lovely coming and going and hard charging dog in the field. Yes he is softer, but he runs hard and he marks really well... And at 3 years old that bite is only a reverse scissor.

I repeated that breeding and got something totally different. All those pups at 8 weeks are exactly what they are at 2 years old. No changes at all physically or behaviorally. The whole litter had super drive, and birdiness, water-crazy etc right from the get-go as tiny pups.
5 out of 7 pups from this breeding are in field homes


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I dont really believe in pick of the litter, I kind of believe that you get the dog you are destined to get. I also believe that if you go to pick a pup, that the pup picks you as his new owner...lots of similarities to the singles scene in bars;-)


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

bonbonjovi said:


> I dont really believe in pick of the litter, I kind of believe that you get the dog you are destined to get. I also believe that if you go to pick a pup, that the pup picks you as his new owner...lots of similarities to the singles scene in bars;-)


So.. You saying you go to the breeder's half drunk, pick a lovely pup only wake up the next day with a pup that can't run a straight line and so ugly you want to gnaw your arm off?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I may have been slightly impaired in my younger days, my judgement and perception may have come into question...but whats the old country song about the gals get better looking at closing time


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

bonbonjovi said:


> I may have been slightly impaired in my younger days, my judgement and perception may have come into question...but whats the old country song about the gals get better looking at closing time



Just remember the person you marry was not likely ever met in the bar.. Tis the same with dogs.. OK, that is more like comparing a backyard-bred dog to a well-bred dog. Exceptions exist, but not the rule


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

BirdNMouth said:


> Just remember the person you marry was not likely ever met in the bar.. Tis the same with dogs.. OK, that is more like comparing a backyard-bred dog to a well-bred dog. Exceptions exist, but not the rule


that explains my son's mother she had the looks in the family, so I must have been the ugly one that made her want to gnaw her arm off in the morning


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

bonbonjovi said:


> that explains my son's mother she had the looks in the family, so I must have been the ugly one that made her want to gnaw her arm off in the morning


:lol::lol:
On the plus side, *you* didn't choose the ugly one!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

I personally don’t think having “pick of the litter” matters at all but if it is important to the owner of the new pup…then it is important.


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## DSO (Dec 27, 2005)

Nate_C said:


> I don't think having the Pick of the Litter matters but being in the top half does. out of a litter of say 7, if you are the first three you will be fine I think. At eight weeks it really is hard to pick the best but you can avoid the pups with issues either physical or social.


Picking the breeding / breeder is most important but I definitely agree with the quote above. I believe certain social traits will emerge by 7 weeks. IMO a nervous skittish pup that has yet to leave the litter will likely battle that condition for the rest of it's life. That's one I'll avoid like the plague. I also don't want the "steam roller". Been there, done that. Give me the happy little guy in the middle. As far as physical issues, If any surfaced before the pups were placed I'd hope the breeder would do the right thing.

Danny


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

POL is important....the "litter" may not have enough pups if you have 5th pick! I have been lucky enough to get 1st picks on all of the dogs that we have bought , plus I get first pick on all the litters we have as well 
As far as getting the last pick, that pup has had more time and less competition for food, attention, socialization with mom and hopefully other dogs, and maybe started on manners and crate training. Once the "bully" of the litter is removed, the next one in line just takes over the role, a lot of times that timid, wallflower pup comes out of its shell pretty quick once the terror of the litter is gone. And the little terror realizes that it is a pretty little fish in a very big pond and will often be shy and unsure of itself, which is something it has not had to deal with before.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

I choose the litter and then always let my wife do the picking and naming. That way when the pup pees on the carpet _it's cute _and not a big deal.   

Good for a lifetime of get out of jail free cards. 

...Don


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Resurrecting this thread because I have been thinking about this scenario:

Suppose you have a chance to get a pup from one of those special breedings that is by invitation only...ie the pups are going to the who's who of FT'ers. And because of that you would find yourself with last pick.

On one hand you have the chance to get in on a truly exceptional breedings....ie sire and dam are both national qualifiers, with 100pts apiece....on the other, being last you could get that dog that might be the one everyone else wants to steer clear of.

Thoughts?


Thoughts


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

junfan68 said:


> Resurrecting this thread because I have been thinking about this scenario:
> 
> Suppose you have a chance to get a pup from one of those special breedings that is by invitation only...ie the pups are going to the who's who of FT'ers. And because of that you would find yourself with last pick.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't have any hesitation at all. Who's to say the others made a good pick?


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

junfan68 said:


> Resurrecting this thread because I have been thinking about this scenario:
> 
> Suppose you have a chance to get a pup from one of those special breedings that is by invitation only...ie the pups are going to the who's who of FT'ers. And because of that you would find yourself with last pick.
> 
> ...


Like is the answer to many questions, my answer would be "it depends". Depends on what I think of that last pup. I would want to see it for myself before committing just as I'd want to if I had pick of the litter. Being last doesn't, in it's self mean the pup is bad or good in my opinion. 

I got a really good deal on a "last pup" from a really, really nice breeding a few years ago. He was a nice pup but was really lacking in drive and desire. He was way too laid back and lazy for my liking so I sold him. When I got him, I thought he seemed like he might be a little too sluggish for my goals but I fell in love with his pedigree and ended up with a pup that just didn't meet my expectations. That's just who he was/is.

I had first pick (of 2 males) from a really, really, really nice breeding (thanks Amy Hunt!). We picked the one we liked best (and the other ended up as a 2x National finalist). He got the opportunites and mine got me. I couldn't be happier with my choice. Best dog I'll ever own.

When given the choice, I would generally prefer an early pick over a later pick but wouldn't be scared to take a last pick if I felt the pup was what I was looking for.


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## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

Juli H said:


> Is POL important to you? Is it important to you to be close to the top of the list? Or is POL just our way of making ourselves feel good? LOL
> 
> How many people here believe that they have better odds with 'pick of litter' pup? (or pick female/pick male)
> 
> ...


Nope. Why a pup is the last could be for a variety of reasons. For my last litter I had a very birdy and independent pup. I waited for the right, experienced, hunting home for him. He is a fantastic dog, my best boy of the litter.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

I love to tell this story. Short version is that I was third on the list for a male puppy when I was waiting to buy a puppy. Dam had three boys. Of course I picked out my favorite at 5 weeks and pined for that puppy, completely helpless as to which one I would actually get. At 8 weeks the morning the puppies were to go home, litter evaluator a la Pat Hastings method (show dogs) examines the litter and deems that my favorite puppy is LAST of the males, says he is too big and laid back to be a performance dog. I was thrilled, as the other two puppy buyers chose the other two and I got the puppy I wanted.
Well it's almost nine years later but Fisher is the breed's 14th CH-UD-MH, GRCA Dual Dog Hall of Fame and Outstanding Sire, totally owner trained and handled, and more than I or anyone else could ever, ever have dreamed of.
Last pick puppy in a great litter is better than the first pick puppy in a mediocre litter....and so much rests on the ability of their owner to bring out the best in them.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

After watching people with 1st pick for years, and the puppy they pick, I can say it doesn't matter except it does to the people. They have to be first, so much so, that if a breeder always puts themselves as the first pick, they turn off a bunch of buyers and may even sit with puppies. It's highly over rated. If I wanted a pup from a super breeding and got last I would take it. My best dogs have been the only pick for color/sex in the litter.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Agree with both Anney & Nancy.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have done best when I had pick, and the breeder selected pick for me.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I asked to Jobmans to pick for me.
I really liked the way they handled it.
When the day arrived for me to go get pup, I asked wich one they thought would be best for me.

They told me they had 2 in mind,, but wanted ME to look at the litter and choose for myself. They told me after I chose,, they would tell me which ones they chose, and why.

They knew the dog I had before, and what I wanted.

I ended up picking one of two they had in mind.

The whole litter was really nice....

I chose the one that licked off the Terrell Davis Barbecue sauce I placed behind my ears!


Gooser


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I have done best when I had pick, and the breeder selected pick for me.


If someone tells me to pick the one I would keep I do-that was FC Rip, but many of the people want to do it themselves.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

After 31 yeears of watching folks pick their pups, I have to agree with Nancy. I have always been amused by what some people feel is important.

Now, for another thought--There have been three instances that I recall very vividly when Cleo and I, almost at the same time and without saying anything to the other, picked up ALL of the pups, put them up and sent the folks home without a pup. We just did not want one of our pups going into that home invironment. We're wierd, Bill


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

stonybrook said:


> Like is the answer to many questions, my answer would be "it depends". Depends on what I think of that last pup. I would want to see it for myself before committing just as I'd want to if I had pick of the litter. Being last doesn't, in it's self mean the pup is bad or good in my opinion.
> 
> I got a really good deal on a "last pup" from a really, really nice breeding a few years ago. He was a nice pup but was really lacking in drive and desire. He was way too laid back and lazy for my liking so I sold him. When I got him, I thought he seemed like he might be a little too sluggish for my goals but I fell in love with his pedigree and ended up with a pup that just didn't meet my expectations. That's just who he was/is.
> 
> ...


Being a breeder myself, I've found when I occasionally need to go outside my breeding program to purchase a pup, I must select breeders with the same or similar criteria for raising litters. How the litter is raised and socialized is far more important to me than whether I have first pick.


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## Eli M (Jan 24, 2012)

Im not too concern with POL, either as a breeder or buyer. For instance in my last litter of 11, I had 5 black girls that were carbon copies, never had a shy or aggressive pup, very level. When the three people on my list came to pick their girls they all said they couldnt find a difference so they choose the one that did this or that, so the last two girls left were technically "picked over" but in reality were no different from their sisters. But in the eye of the next viewers, they've been picked over


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> If someone tells me to pick the one I would keep I do-that was FC Rip, but many of the people want to do it themselves.


I have had many picks. Have picked my own. Have had breeder pick. Have done best when breeder picks.


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

I agree 100% with Erin also. 
The puppy will be all he can be if you do the time.



"Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his tail."


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## FPA Ammo (Jan 13, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> After watching people with 1st pick for years, and the puppy they pick, I can say it doesn't matter except it does to the people. They have to be first, so much so, that if a breeder always puts themselves as the first pick, they turn off a bunch of buyers and may even sit with puppies. It's highly over rated. If I wanted a pup from a super breeding and got last I would take it. My best dogs have been the only pick for color/sex in the litter.


My pup that I am getting was exactly that. I wanted a Black Male out of a great breeding that was between a Chocolate Sire and a Black Damm and fortunately she spit out only 1 Black Dog and it was a Male the rest of the litter was Chocolate. Got Lucky because I love the demeanor of both the Damm and Sire that it didnt matter to me as long as I got a Black Male and I did! I would have to say that its gift sent from above because not only was there 1 Black Male we ( my Fiance and I) get to Pick him up from the breeder on the day we got engaged last year and its the same day my Fiances YLF was born 14 years ago! so I think its ment to be!


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## commando (Oct 21, 2010)

I have pick of the litter on a litter later in the yr. but since I am new to all this I am just gonna breeder pick. I am gonna tell him what I am looking for and see what I get. I trust the guy to give me what I am looking for.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

Like Ted and Gooser - I have had the best luck when the breeder picks for me, though the best dog I ever had was the male I picked.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Had an old timer tell me he knew of a famous FT breeder who did this with large litters. Never told anyone they didn't get pick of the litter. The litter just got smaller after each pick....

Had the first person over for pick of the litter. They picked. 
Had the second person over for pick of the litter. They picked. 
Had the third person over for pick of the litter. They picked.


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## Jeannie Greenlee (Apr 15, 2009)

FC AFC LaCrosse Max Q Jake JH OS FDHF - the puppy that was last to be picked.

just sayin'


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Furball said:


> Last pick puppy in a great litter is better than the first pick puppy in a mediocre litter....and so much rests on the ability of their owner to bring out the best in them.


An excellent statement.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Here's a story told to me by Frank K. The weather was awful and he was late arriving at the breeder's kennel to pick his stud fee puppy. It had already been agreed upon that he would get pick male. Frank was in a hurry to get back on the road to go home. No testing was done. No bird wings, no live pigeons. He didn't ask the breeder a single question about the pups. He stood and watched the males mill around in a pen for a few minutes. He reached down, picked up one of the males, and said, "I'll take this one."

It was Chopper. 

Helen


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Great story, Helen. That tells me 2 possible things:

1. Chopper was a stand out that Frank could easily see without having to conduct any tests.

2. Frank is an all world trainer that brought out the best in the dog he picked.

Would be interesting to know how many males there were to choose from and, had he asked the breeder for their advice, which one they would've steered him towards.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

Our old Chesapeake male, Ringo, was one of two pups left to place in a litter of 13 so he wasn't pick of the litter by any means. He was a handsome boy, but more important was his wonderful temperament. He lived to please and was a joy to train. My husband finished 35 masters with him and a master national. I have had breeders chose what they considered pick of the litter for us and it ultimately didn't work out. Our current male was a Singleton so no pick there!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I had a Chessie litter with two really nice males...one light deadgrass and the other dark brown. A friend of mine had second pick and was really hoping for the deadgrass male. So...pick day came, and the guy holding first pick male arrives. He narrowed it down to the two males, one dark, one light. And as the pups were running toward me, I flipped a pheasant wing in front of the dark one just as the light one glanced the other way. Dark puppy pounced on the wing, guy said "that's the one!", and after he left, I called my friend and told her the light male was hers...and also told her she now owed me, big time.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> I had a Chessie litter with two really nice males...one light deadgrass and the other dark brown. A friend of mine had second pick and was really hoping for the deadgrass male. So...pick day came, and the guy holding first pick male arrives. He narrowed it down to the two males, one dark, one light. And as the pups were running toward me, I flipped a pheasant wing in front of the dark one just as the light one glanced the other way. Dark puppy pounced on the wing, guy said "that's the one!", and after he left, I called my friend and told her the light male was hers...and also told her she now owed me, big time.


 
Lmao that is funny!


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Like several folks have said, I think once you pick the breeding, POL is not very important. We just repeated a breeding on our MH Cosmo bitch to Pow. We kept two pups from the first litter - a BLF for me and a YLM for my hubby. We kept the last ones that no one else picked. And no, we didn't keep them because they didn't sell -this was our plan. We REALLY liked the breeding, and felt like it didn't really matter which pups we kept. It has seemed to work out just great for us. I haven't once thought in the last year, hmm, wonder if that other pup would have been better than this one. 

Boy, I tell you though, I have seen some REALLY weird things when folks try to pick out a puppy. I have found one thing to be consistent though - either they know in about 5 minutes which one they want, or an hour later they are no closer to deciding than when they got there.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I seriously doubt that it really matters in the end, but I have had POL on 2 of the 3 labs I've owned and a very high pick on the other (like 2nd or 3rd pick out of 12 puppies) and I really do like being able to choose from a number of puppies rather than just being designated one. Obviously if it was a super primo litter you would just be happy to get in on that litter. 2 of the 3 times I picked the puppy that the breeder said they would keep if they were keeping one. 1 of those 2 times it was the puppy that everyone wanted.

One time in particular I narrowed it to 3 puppies and put them in a pen with a wing clipped bobwhite quail, at maybe 6 weeks of age. One (my eventual pick, the one everyone already wanted and the one the breeder said he would take if it were him) picked it up immediately and strutted around with it like he had really done something. One checked it out and eventually picked it up. One went into a corner and urinated and stayed in the corner away from the bird. I'm glad I didn't have to take that one. Does that mean that dog wouldn't have made a good retriever? I don't know, but I didn't want to find out.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Nope---short answer. Great post.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

I like POL because that means I have a better chance of there being a puppy available to pick. Most of the litters I have looked into have been sold before the litter was whelped. I hate doing all that research to find the right breeder and litter only to be told there are not enough puppies for you this time. 


Terri


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

I just told the breeder what I was looking for and she picked. Technically, I had "first pick" but basically that just meant that the breeder looked at all the males and picked the best one for me. Was he really the POL? Who knows, maybe? But he is perfect for me. 

Honestly, I trust a breeder more than I trust myself to pick a pup, no matter what "pick" I have. I know that the second I see the pups, I would just want the one that licks me the most.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

stonybrook said:


> Great story, Helen. That tells me 2 possible things:
> 
> 1. Chopper was a stand out that Frank could easily see without having to conduct any tests.
> 2. Frank is an all world trainer that brought out the best in the dog he picked.
> .


1. Nope. Chopper was no stand out per Frank. He was a male and Frank had first pick of the males. The point Frank was making with his story was, he was in a hurry to get back on the road so he reached in and grabbed one of the males -- he chose the cleanest male, "the one that did not have any sh*t on him." That's Frank's story on how Chopper was chosen (or, at least the story he told me). 

2. Nope. As far as I know, Frank is not considered to be an "all world" trainer. I believe that the young dog training for Chopper was done by others. When Chopper got older, he was trained by Jim Gonia. That's not to say that Frank did not spend training time with Chopper, he did. Seven years ago my husband trained with Chopper and Gonia, and also with Chopper and Frank. And also with Carbon, Chopper's sire. 

After these training experiences in 2004, we got on a waiting list for a Carbon daughter. We put down a deposit to be on the list before the breeding took place. We had 2nd pick. We never saw the litter. We received photos and weights at 7 weeks. We picked based upon size at 8 weeks and personality. As Don said in the Aug issue of Retriever News, he asked for the biggest and most spirited female in the litter. He got what he wanted. 

She is now FC/AFC Flyway's Ruby B. Gonia (my avatar). 

Helen


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Julie R. said:


> This is so true--all of them are a gamble. I do think some very experienced breeders can evaluate correct conformation and which ones are going to be structurally the nicest, but even they admit things can change and they're wrong as often as they're right. I really don't think you can tell much about their field aptitude when they're babies. They still don't even see very well beyond 20 feet at 7 weeks!
> 
> Every litter that I've sworn I wasn't keeping one, I still end up holding back my favorite and by the time they're 7 or 8 weeks, decide I will only sell it if the perfect home comes along. This is the pup I liked best from my last litter, which was overall very uniform in size, type and disposition; no bully and no shrinking violet. Half were brown and half were ash. Two other experienced people looked at the litter and also noticed this one right away, so that made me feel pretty good.
> 
> ...


Ah ha! Thats where silver labs come from! lol That is a pretty pup


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

When I got into bird dogs 20 some yrs ago,an old man told me to find the best litter I could afford and close my eyes and reach in and grab one.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I haven't read the thread so this opinion could have been already voiced. The most important thing is the picker of the pick of the litter in mho. Lean Mac in the wrong home is just another dog.


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

duk4me said:


> Lean Mac in the wrong home is just another dog.


 
That is a good analogy...... Agreed


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## rocky hamman (Feb 4, 2010)

this is my perspective on the question. look at the dogs lineage back in time. if there is good breeding for what you are looking for i don't think it matters so much which pup you choose. it's just that some dogs train more readily out of the same litter. sometimes no matter what we do in picking we just get a pup that doesn't work out. that does happen. but the majority of the time we end up with good working dogs that do what we need them to do..


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## my2ylws (Aug 12, 2010)

"Pick of The Litter" is highly subjective and will vary from person to person. What it really means and where it is most important in a well bred, well raised litter is that if you want a Yellow Female for instance, and there is 8 pups in the Litter and only 1 Yellow Female - that's your pup! Or if you want a big strapping Black Male and there are 2 Black Males and one is smaller and one is larger - than the Larger is the "pick pup" in that case. Or if you are looking for a "black factored" Yellow male, you look for the one with the most Black factoring. 

When we raise a litter, we have carefully selected and planned the breeding for months and months in advance and we use our best judgement and experience in matching up attributes of both dogs that we feel will complement each other. What we may want and look for in a pup may not be what someone else is necessarily looking for. However, raising and interacting with the pups from birth to 7 weeks, we see the personalities of the pups and the subtle differences and nuances that nobody else could ever see unless they lived with them 24/7 like we do. We handle and nuture our pups daily and take them thru a complete regimine of early neurological stimulation. Pups are handled several times daily by both men and women and children. We know what our puppy buyers are looking for and do our best to help give them as much input about each pup before they make their final decision. One thing that we also do is take tons of pictures daily and send them to our buyers and also have a live feed video cam where our buyers can watch the pups as they grow. Our last litter had over 2,000 views as they tuned in and watched the pups from our litter sired by AFC Hawkeye's Viking. We received incredible feedback and had people that just sat and watched for hours on end. We focus on daily routines of socialization and seeing which pups make the best eye contact or which ones tend to be more dominant vs. submissive and also see how they react to new stimuli such as loud noises or wings, etc. What we have found in the end, is that the biggest difference in how the pups eventually turn out has a whole lot more to do with what happens from Day 49 going forward when the new owner takes over. During the first 49 days all pups were treated equally and raised and exposed to all the same conditions and we know in our hearts that we have raised them the best we know how to and provided them with the best of care. We feel very confident that when we tell our Buyers that "there's not a bad one in the bunch", we mean it. They have all been given the best possible start we know how to provide.

Best wishes for a lifetime of health and happiness to you and your four legged friends and may your "pick of the litter" be the dog of your dreams!

Deb & John Lenon
www.mamaslabs.com


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

Yes.................


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

my2ylws said:


> "...... Or if you are looking for a "black factored" Yellow male, you look for the one with the most Black factoring.


Excuse me? Does one dog carry more black or have a propensity to throw more black than another? If so you pick them as a puppy?????? I am pretty sure not............

Now, I do know that I am pretty good at picking black dogs that carry yellow. The Black dogs that carry yellow seem to have more pink in their lips. I will see if my record stands, when I get my Grady pup color tested.Grady is black (By), Lola is black(Bb), I say Crosby carries yellow........based on the color of his lips.


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## my2ylws (Aug 12, 2010)

In general all we are saying about "most black factoring" is that we prefer to look for the dark pigmentation of the belly skin vs anything with a pink nose or light colored toenails.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

AHHH.....OK ....Thanks


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Lottie was the last dog in the litter that nobody wanted, Mary Howley gave her to Andy Attar and we all know what happened after that...


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

RJW said:


> That is a good analogy...... Agreed


Not the first time I've been called anal.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

There's an FC-AFC Chessie, call name Loppy....LOP stands for left over puppy. 

What I tell my puppy people: Pick the pedigree and the parents, choose a sex, and then reach in and grab one. From that moment forward, everything that puppy becomes (or not!) is what you put into it.


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## dogshom (Mar 16, 2010)

If I like the parents and the build and activity level of the puppies, I might take any one. I agree that I end up with the dog I deserve. It's up to me to make mine great.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

My idea is to pick the BREEDING. The pups have the genes and it is up to me to bring out the qualities that I want in a dog. I usually keep one of my pups I breed and what ever is left is what I have. I think I have some nice dogs.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

labman63 said:


> Ah ha! Thats where silver labs come from! lol That is a pretty pup


I know you're aware she's a Chesapeake, but didn't want any n00bs to think I have silver labs . Ash is a recognized and acceptable color for CBRs. Although she got a late start (wasn't FF'd til she was 2), she's doing very well and may be the fastest CBR I've ever owned; she's a jet propelled rocket. She's also a mini Peake--barely 50 lbs. She was not the smallest in the litter. Goes to show you don't know what you'll end up with.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I've owned about 15 Labs and have bred and closely observed about 130 pups over the last five years. The more I watch the more I am convinced that there is not a lot of variation in puppies within well-bred litters (less well bred litters show a lot more variability). If the ancestry is there, the pups will have the drive, talent, and attitude to be successful as hunting or hunt test dogs. Whether or not they will succeed in field trials is not something I think anyone can predict at seven weeks, and even then it will be impossible to tell how much was attributable to genetics and how much to training and environment.


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

duk4me said:


> Not the first time I've been called anal.


 
LOL, oh how well I know that feeling.....


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## Bustin' (Jun 5, 2007)

NFC AFC Boo was the last male pup as well! I plan to wait to keep the last one out of my litter. I used to be concerned about it, but with training regiment, I am sure no matter which dog I get I will be holding them back!!


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Everybodies pick is different. What I might be looking for might not be with the first 5 people are looking for. I took the runt of Thor's first litter he sired and I felt she was pick but no one wanted her. So I kept her for myself and I told the other buyers I felt she was the best one. When I got Thor I was like 13th on the list and she had 12 pups. Well everyone wanted females and the people that wanted males wanted dead grass males. The people that wanted dark males wanted smaller ones. I wanted a big dark male. So I ended up with first pick of big dark males so to my I got my pick. 
Now we are keeping a female puppy from this litter out of my Gracie. She is going to be more for my inlaws so I picked them a puppy that I would not have picked for myself and none of the 4 other female puppy buyers would have picked for them. She is a big girl that is really laid back. I will most lily doing the training on her but just to the Junior level. My father inlaw wants her just to hunt phesants so it wont require much training. 

Now I have to pick puppies for the 6 other buyers.


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

picking a puppy out of a litter is a crap-shoot, however, i would rather have pick of the litter than any other. if it's going to be wrong, i want it to be wrong my way. 
bring a dead bird with you!!!!!!!!
GG


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## Trinie83 (Dec 5, 2011)

We had first pick on a female of a litter, and that was very important to us in chosing a liter. Then that bitch didn't end up being bred, so we ended up getting last pick on a male on a litter we initially passed on because there were already 4 girls and 4 boys spoken for. That was a total departure from the "plan". Mary Howley said, she has no "bad picks", she knows that because of genetics and how they are bred. I trusted her! Our little Quinn is wonderful, he is smart, attentive, and very handsome. We are happy with our "last pick". He is only 11 weeks old though =)!


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Jake was the last of his litter and came to us at 4 months of age. He turned out to be the best dog I've ever owned, trained or otherwise been associated with in the past 20 some years of owning and training Lab, so no I don't believe in pick of the litter.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

When I have a litter, I ask people to tell me what they really want in a pup. If they are hunters, do they do mostly upland or waterfowl? If they are pet owners MAYBE aspiring to do competition, I push them to be honest w/ me-- are they really seriously thinking about that, or just trying to tell me something I want to hear thinking they will get a higher priority (and maybe end up w/ too much puppy)? The "pick" to a field trialer is going to be different than pick for a retired person wanting a duck hunting companion or someone who wants to do therapy work. So instead of looking at it as "THE pick" of the litter (which I like to think I reserve for myself anyhow, lol), I look it as the pick for the purpose intended.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Absolutely. Only a few dogs in a litter (If there is even more than one or one in the 1st place.) have the potential to title with the best trainers. So you most certainly have to get the dog or dogs from a litter to have one title. Do I believe you can pick the one or few for certain @ such a young age? Nope.


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