# The Derby Stake



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Looked at the AKC FT rule book and found little description of the derby or any other stake. Not sure if I was looking at an outdated copy or not. It was a direct link from the AKC web site. 

Also did an RTF search that brought up 20 pages worth of threads and none addressed this question.

What is the typical make-up of a derby stake? Won't be able to attend one until the first weekend of Feb., but curious to compare my girl's training level with that required of the Derby.

Typically, how many series are there? 2? 4? And what's the progression of series? Land singles, Land multiples, water singles, water multiples?

And how many multiples? Doubles only or are there triples?

Thanks,
Jen


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Usually 4 series.

Usually doubles on land and water. Can run singles, not sure if trips are allowed.

It has been awhile since I ran one. I'm sure someone will chime with the actual rules, but that would be my expectations.


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Derby is usually 4 series, 2 land series and 2 water series, usually doubles. Marks, only. Handling is an automatic disqualiication.

Some (few) derbies have one or more series that is a single. Some change the order, and have water earlier. Some (few) only have 3 series.

I have never seen a triple in a derby, but have heard rumors of it happening. Never seen a retired gun, but have seen some birdboys that are out of sight enroute, and some that are hard enough to see after sitting down, that they are virtually retired.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Typically there are 4 series. 2 doubles on land and 2 doubles on water. There could be a single, but probably not. The marks will typically be AA type marks but just a double. No honors, no blinds.

You can bring your dog to the line on a leash, but once you take it off and signal for the birds the dog must be steady. You can stop the dog if it breaks, have a "controlled break" and still run. Dog must deliver to hand and then you can take it offline on a leash, and no clickers


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## elingler (Oct 7, 2009)

4 series in a derby 2 land 2 water marks are mostly doubles have seen singles but if there's a single most likely it's a really difficult single as far as for marks go expect every thing marks can range from 100yards to 350yard or more


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

If time is tight sometimes the judges will combine two series. For example, they'll have a double set up and you'll run it from one matt, then after completing it you'll go to another matt, facing a different direction where the guns/gunners stations from the first series are not visible and and run a single or double.


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## davewolfe (Mar 22, 2010)

I have seen one triple in a few years back, mostly doubles. Could have a flyer in first series and could have one in the last. Judges only have to have as many series as it take to find a clear winner. Can bring the dog to the line on lead. Dog need to be able to go to memory bird that the dog looses sight of in route with out going back to an old fall. A handle is a automatic D/Q. I have heard a lot of judges say the like to throw two in, two out, two left and two right? The dog needs to stay in the water, some judges like what is called two down shore. Dog picks up first bird on shore line has to go by that gunner on the way to memory bird down same shore line, with out going back to old fall. Judges have alot of levety to do what they want. Dog can't go back to old fall or be handled.

Good luck 
David Wolfe


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great info! Thank you very much. Think we'll enter this February. Will leave the clicker in the truck, John L.

One more question: while at line, can you quietly tell dog "stay"?


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Great info! Thank you very much. Think we'll enter this February. Will leave the clicker in the truck, John L.
> 
> One more question: while at line, can you quietly tell dog "stay"?


You can tell the dog whatever you want until you call for the birds. After that, you talking would be roughly considered a controlled break.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

not after you signal for the birds. That can be considered a control break. Might do it one series, if you do in the next you are probably done.


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## davewolfe (Mar 22, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Great info! Thank you very much. Think we'll enter this February. Will leave the clicker in the truck, John L.
> 
> One more question: while at line, can you quietly tell dog "stay"?


Once You call for the birds you can't say anything to the dog untill your dog's number is called, and then you can talk to your dog again.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

Running a derby is not a piece of cake, it's not like running a junior in a hunt test. I personally wouldn’t run a derby until I spent the whole day at least watching one and asking questions from the people in the gallery. If you are going to the trial in Corning CA that starts the first of Feb., you will be able to see some great derby dogs that were trained by some of the best trainers in the business. Enjoy the trial and best of luck to you.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks Terry, I plan on attending at Corning for the sole purpose of watching to make sure we're ready before the Anderson or Gridley Trial. I know competition and standards are high, but gotta start somewhere. My pup is pretty awesome, not sure her handler can rise to the occasion, but I hope to re-assess after watching at Corning.

Thanks to all for the info!!

Jen


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Thanks Terry, I plan on attending at Corning for the sole purpose of watching to make sure we're ready before the Anderson or Gridley Trial. I know competition and standards are high, but gotta start somewhere. My pup is pretty awesome, not sure her handler can rise to the occasion, but I hope to re-assess after watching at Corning.
> 
> Thanks to all for the info!!
> 
> Jen


Look forward to hearing what you think after you go and see one. Also, the marks WILL be technical marks.....meaning, your dog needs some "skills" (ie shore breaking etc). WRL


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Derby is, and should be, about Pin-Point Marking. 
Your dog is basically ready to run Derby if he's able to do a rather complicated cheating single as the memory mark of a double. This means stepping on big long ass marks without needing much help at all. 
Your dog should be seeing duck flyers often, at least once a week. Your dog should hopefully not be a gun runner.
He should have been introduced to retired guns or at least been exposed to guns that disappear from view in route. You will not see retired guns in a Derby, however often there is rolling terrain or swims where dogs cannot see guns for part of the way. 

For running your dog try not to over think it and keep to the bare basics since you'll be running your first one. 
Most people will come out of the holding blind and casually sit their dog on the mat without much fussing and give dog a moment to survey the situation and identify the guns on their own. Take your time with this as no one is likely to pressure you. 
Next it's time to get busy and line him up on the long mark. (Your dog should spot the flyer station no problem so best not to point it out to him further) Give him your verbal cues "Mark" or "Watch" for the long gun and when he's staring that mark down real good, and not eye balling the flyer, maybe tell him "good" or "right there" or whatever you say. (verbal cues are a good thing). Give him one more Sit command to lock him in, then quickly signal judges. No need for you to look up at long dead bird being thrown because you should already know where that ones going to land anyway. Do have a peek at the flyer as it's shot so you know where it lands. Otherwise don't take your eyes off of your dog.

So, if your dog can mark, has been decheated and count to two, go for it and have fun.


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## Mike Kempel (Jan 2, 2013)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Great info! Thank you very much. Think we'll enter this February. Will leave the clicker in the truck, John L.
> 
> One more question: while at line, can you quietly tell dog "stay"?


I ran my first Derby last fall and I accidently said stay after signaling for my birds. The judges asked if it was my first Derby and I said yes, and they told me I was not allowed to talk to the dog after signaling for the bird but it was ok this time...they were very kind about it. We ended up making it to the 3rd series (Probably wasn't ready to be running derby's but I was eager to try it). Also make sure your lead is in your pocket. Good Luck!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Just go run one, that's the way to find out what they are about. You can't know if your dog can do it if you don't enter.

If your dog is awesome like you think, she will help you out. In my first FT I had mine lined up to watch the marks go off in the wrong order, but she's smarter than me and figured it out!

Folks around here are awfully nice to the newbs, and the judges are understanding. You'll have a blast.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Jennifer, "Don't let these dorks bother you,they have the winter crazies"​ 

Seriously though, pay your dollar and take your chance.

You will have a much greater understanding of field trials on Monday morning. Take in as much as you can. ie don't leave when/if your dog goes out... Stay ,watch, learn.

Good luck and have fun.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Jen, Derby is not easy. Doesn't mean you shouldn't take a shot at it. Go see a couple and train with some people who have run/are running Derby. As RND said, you will have a greater understanding of field trials. Also, as WRL posted, there will be technical marks.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

From a fella that ran his first derbies last year ,Breck seems right on the money. Print his explanation out and tape it to the windshield of the truck so you can read it while on the way to the derby.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Not to hijack, however some of those tests seem to be about training and less about marking, which the derby is supposed to be stressing.



davewolfe said:


> I have seen one triple in a few years back, mostly doubles. Could have a flyer in first series and could have one in the last. Judges only have to have as many series as it take to find a clear winner. Can bring the dog to the line on lead. Dog need to be able to go to memory bird that the dog looses sight of in route with out going back to an old fall. A handle is a automatic D/Q. I have heard a lot of judges say the like to throw two in, two out, two left and two right? The dog needs to stay in the water, some judges like what is called two down shore. Dog picks up first bird on shore line has to go by that gunner on the way to memory bird down same shore line, with out going back to old fall. Judges have alot of levety to do what they want. Dog can't go back to old fall or be handled.
> 
> Good luck
> David Wolfe


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I would like to add to the discussion on the technical aspects of the marks. The dog needs to be completely de-cheated on water entries as virtually all of the derbies I ran a couple years ago included a cheating element on the water marks. Also the dog needs to understand not returning to an old fall. I think most dogs that I remember being dropped from competition was because they returned to old falls. This may sound simple, but many judges have a way of setting up tests to really entice a return to an old fall. As mentioned before, two down the shore is a good method, also a tight hip pocket throw with the long bird the go bird and the short bird gun station not being visible enroute, but with the long gun station clearly visible on a knoll or something. Anyway, my take home from derbies is they are really tough usually and I would not run a young dog until it is really steady on the line, doing tight doubles a high percentage of time in training and very reliable on getting in the water and holding a line. My dog was not that great on line manners when I ran derbies and now at 4 years old, I am still fighting her on line manners....some of that problem I think started because I ran her in derbies before she was rock solid on the line. Good luck and have fun with your dog!


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

As someone who has only run one derby, you can take my advice with a large pinch of salt, LOL.

My pup already had her JH and RN titles when we went to the chessie specialty last year in Cascade, ID. I had never even SEEN a derby, but everyone encouraged us to enter. We were there a day early, so I got to watch one full day of upper level dogs running before the derby started, and asked a lot of questions. Skill-wise, we were ready, although we had only practiced long marks for 2 weeks before we went, as we had been training for junior right up until that time. It was loads of fun! I am seriously tempted to find another couple of derbies to enter this spring. Granted, open derbies are probably more difficult and competitive than a special, but for an owner handler who isn't worried about competing with client dogs (and therefore spending someone else's money!) it's an oportunity to gain experience and learn something new. I fully expected to go out on the first series: I didn't go expecting to be competitive. What I expected was to learn, observe, meet people, and give it a shot, and we did. Actually, we ended up in the ribbons, but that was pure luck, LOL.

For now, keep on asking questions and try to practice some of the new stuff so you and your dog won't be taken aback by sometime completely unexpected. The main thing I worked on with my girl was stretching her out with lots of loooong singles and line manners. I was not in the habit of "pointing out" the gun stations, someone told me about that on the first day. Taking time to let her look and get the feel for where the gunners were was new to us both, but she picked up on that right away, even though we really did it the first time in the first series. You can start doing that now so you'll be ready


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Love the encouragement! And hearing everyone's experiences with their first time. We're not trying to get on the Derby list nor am I spending anyone else's money (cept my husbands!) So I think we'll go for it. She's been doing long marks and doubles for months and is a naturally good lining dog, even through obstacles and water. She has very good line manners and steadiness, though I have been saying a quite "stay" inbetween the first and second marks of a double. Will do some de-cheating training the next 4 weeks and see what we can do. Sunshine and 63 degree temps for the next two weeks here on the Nor Cal coast.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Here are some from the midwest last year. The first one is a 240yd single in the 4th series.











Hip pocket ,1st one at 180yds,2nd 150yds









2 down the shore .1st at 60 2nd 90yds.









Sorry this is large as I could get them.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Another good source to learn about derbies (and other FT stakes) is the Judges Manual produced by Retriever News. A number of very knowledgeable people contributed to it.


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## dalelong (Nov 1, 2011)

What are the distances of the marks? Is there a difference in the lenght between land and water marks? Thanks


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

JKOttman said:


> Another good source to learn about derbies (and other FT stakes) is the Judges Manual produced by Retriever News. A number of very knowledgeable people contributed to it.


Unfortunately, most don't or think that it's not relevant anymore. 



dalelong said:


> What are the distances of the marks? Is there a difference in the lenght between land and water marks? Thanks


Up to 400 yards. The distances shouldn't be any different from land and water as long as we are testing good marks. The distances don't always mean anything. It's the difficulty of the mark that matters.


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## J.D. Penn (Feb 3, 2010)

Second series, go bird on left, long bird on right at 436 yards. Both thrown in.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Don't wanna high jack this thread but what age are derby dogs when they are really competitive? I know you can run them till there 2 but what age are most of the winners?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Purely a guess on my part, but a lot of dogs seem to really come into their own in the 18 to 20 month old range and are good until they age out. 

Don't take this as gospel as every dog is different.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Howard


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

I think everything has been mentioned that is in a derby. I would also add technical water marks with multiple in and outs! Last year i saw a long single for the 4th series through a pond at about 400 yards with the mark at the top of a hill.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Purely a guess on my part, but a lot of dogs seem to really come into their own in the *18 to 20 month *old range and are good until they age out.
> 
> Don't take this as gospel as every dog is different.


Yup that's what I'm hoping for with my young one (Mr. Riot by Ruckus), but at 7 months we have a LONG way to go until we can think about Derbies....and as the time gets closer I have to make sure I don't pester CL too much about running even though I can't wait to run another Derby!


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

The very first Derby I ever ran was at the San Jose club umteen years ago. Paul Corona and Les Lowenthal were the judges--told you it was a long time ago. In the last series, they threw a delayed triple! Scared the dickens out of me, but we did it and got 2nd. My girl was better trained than I was.
Suzanne Burr


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Suzanne Burr said:


> The very first Derby I ever ran was at the San Jose club umteen years ago. Paul Corona and Les Lowenthal were the judges--told you it was a long time ago. In the last series, they threw a delayed triple! Scared the dickens out of me, but we did it and got 2nd. My girl was better trained than I was.
> Suzanne Burr


Wow! Nice!

Note to self: train for a delayed triple.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Purely a guess on my part, but a lot of dogs seem to really come into their own in the 18 to 20 month old range and are good until they age out.
> 
> Don't take this as gospel as every dog is different.


I don't follow them that closely but it seems to me that some tend not to do as well as they become closer to aging out than in the range above. It is almost like their brains are filling with so much big dog training thinking that they aren't quite as good in the just run and go get it.


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

The first Derby I ever ran about a gazillion years ago, had a delayed triple as the last series. The judges were Les Lowenthal and Paul Corona. The only reason I remember them is it was one heck of test and Berry and I got 2nd! She was definitely better trained than I was.
Suzanne B


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Wow! Nice!
> 
> Note to self: train for a delayed triple.



Maybe not but Susan may be recalling something that's illegal to do now in a derby. Sometimes they used to do a double followed by a single run from the same spot to try and get two series in quickly. The single would be visible to the dogs trying to do the double or they may pick up scent from the other station. Rather unfair.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

If the goal is to run a derby then enter and learn. If the goal is to complete a derby then train continuosly at the difficulty that will be encountered at a Licensed Derby. If the goal is to place then train continuosuly at levels more difficult than will be seen at a trial. Harry


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

HarryWilliams said:


> If the goal is to run a derby then enter and learn. If the goal is to complete a derby then train continuosly at the difficulty that will be encountered at a Licensed Derby. If the goal is to place then train continuosuly at levels more difficult than will be seen at a trial. Harry


Agreed, train for the all-age and run the Derby as Howard indicated a Derby career is very short 18 months to 24 months . Sure there are dogs that place younger, but, the above age is more realistic.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Criquetpas said:


> Agreed, train for the all-age and run the Derby as Howard indicated a Derby career is very short 18 months to 24 months . Sure there are dogs that place younger, but, the above age is more realistic.


Had an epiphany on this yesterday as we were out training some complex doubles etc. After reading the responses to this thread, I now see so much more during training. The holes, that is. Actually was panicking a little about the need to hurry up and close the holes and move up the ladder in time for the trials. My stress made the dog stressed, as well as my trusty bird-boy. A recipe for disaster. So, last night I decided we would continue at our normal pace to finish up T work, then move on to Swimby and de-cheating. All the while working on progressing with marks. If we're ready in time for the last two trials in Feb. then great. If not, we'll wait til the next one in April and maybe get a ribbon. One thing is certain. I will be attending a couple of Feb. trials just to watch and learn.

This has been another lesson for me regarding the "Cart Before the Horse" syndrome. And maybe a little "I'm in love my new pup" blindness. She is great, and we will get there, but not by me rushing things just to make a trial date.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

That is a great post, Jen... (poor bird boy..LOL) 

Best, Judy


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

If you havent finished Twork, swimby and de-cheating, I wouldnt be worrying about running a trial.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Good idea Jennifer, if you are still doing T work, swim-by and decheating you and your dog will be better served polishing those before even thinking about a derby. Make sure your dog is not cheaty at all because if she gets away with it in a trial you have dug a serious hole which is very hard to get out of in future trials. Many good trainers, when seeing Fido try to cheat in a trial, will blow a whistle and pick up their dog. Tough pill to swallow but that is much more important than a five dollar ribbon!!




Jennifer Henion said:


> Had an epiphany on this yesterday as we were out training some complex doubles etc. After reading the responses to this thread, I now see so much more during training. The holes, that is. Actually was panicking a little about the need to hurry up and close the holes and move up the ladder in time for the trials. My stress made the dog stressed, as well as my trusty bird-boy. A recipe for disaster. So, last night I decided we would continue at our normal pace to finish up T work, then move on to Swimby and de-cheating. All the while working on progressing with marks. If we're ready in time for the last two trials in Feb. then great. If not, we'll wait til the next one in April and maybe get a ribbon. One thing is certain. I will be attending a couple of Feb. trials just to watch and learn.
> 
> This has been another lesson for me regarding the "Cart Before the Horse" syndrome. And maybe a little "I'm in love my new pup" blindness. She is great, and we will get there, but not by me rushing things just to make a trial date.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> .....This has been another lesson for me regarding the "Cart Before the Horse" syndrome..


great post Jen, your not the first on that cart and many of us still fall off of the wagon.
Shoot for the fully trained hound and take the derbies / started tests if and when the stars are right.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Had an epiphany on this yesterday as we were out training some complex doubles etc. After reading the responses to this thread, I now see so much more during training. The holes, that is. Actually was panicking a little about the need to hurry up and close the holes and move up the ladder in time for the trials. My stress made the dog stressed, as well as my trusty bird-boy. A recipe for disaster. So, last night I decided we would continue at our normal pace to finish up T work, then move on to Swimby and de-cheating. All the while working on progressing with marks. If we're ready in time for the last two trials in Feb. then great. If not, we'll wait til the next one in April and maybe get a ribbon. One thing is certain. I will be attending a couple of Feb. trials just to watch and learn.
> 
> This has been another lesson for me regarding the "Cart Before the Horse" syndrome. And maybe a little "I'm in love my new pup" blindness. She is great, and we will get there, but not by me rushing things just to make a trial date.


Great post and perfect plan. Now having said that, if you believe based on observation that your dog is a good marker on land and water, is able to heel to the line and sit still and watch two birds to the ground, then why not run and see where you are. You will need to be very diciplined and willing to give up an entry fee to pick your dog up if he or she blatently cheats cover or water, goes back to an old fall or creeps out there. A lot will depend on if the judges set up straight forward marking test versus some kind of cheaty test. 

There is a lot to be gained as a handler and dog by going to the line and getting two or three series under your belt. The trick is to have high standards set in your mind and stick with them regardless of the additional pressure to succeed in an actual trial. A big well timed "NO-Here" followed by walking your dog back to the trck on lead can be worth the cost of entering.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

I would also try to get the opinion of someone with knowledge in FTs to assess your dogs talent and level of training. If you mostly train alone.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Breck said:


> Maybe not but Susan may be recalling something that's illegal to do now in a derby. Sometimes they used to do a double followed by a single run from the same spot to try and get two series in quickly. The single would be visible to the dogs trying to do the double or they may pick up scent from the other station. Rather unfair.


Suzanne Burr has tons of great stuff to share. She has bred and owned some remarkable FT Golden Retrievers..and I never tire of her posts. 

"Note to self: train for a delayed triple"....is a good thing, as said not to encounter in Derby (?)..but certainly for the upper stakes that you are really preparing for  ...so in your proper training sequence (and balance in training..a Dennis reminder ..) that you have gone back to! 

Enjoy your pup..

Judy


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> Great post and perfect plan. Now having said that, if you believe based on observation that your dog is a good marker on land and water, is able to heel to the line and sit still and watch two birds to the ground, then why not run and see where you are. You will need to be very diciplined and willing to give up an entry fee to pick your dog up if he or she blatently cheats cover or water, goes back to an old fall or creeps out there. A lot will depend on if the judges set up straight forward marking test versus some kind of cheaty test.
> 
> *There is a lot to be gained as a handler and dog by going to the line and getting two or three series under your belt. The trick is to have high standards set in your mind and stick with them regardless of the additional pressure to succeed in an actual trial. A big well timed "NO-Here" followed by walking your dog back to the trck on lead can be worth the cost of entering.*


*


*This is actually what my original intent was, John. Because I don't have a steady group to work with yet, I really wanted to drive the 5 -7 hours to the trials to get a feel for how they work and how the nerves and atmosphere affect our performance at the line. I was thinking that if nothing else came of it, it may be worth the $80 entry fee to practice being at the line, feeling the nerves and see how she does. May still do that at the end of Feb. But not at the beginning of Feb, like I had wanted to. There's always another one in April. Pup is only 11 months now.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> [/B]This is actually what my original intent was, John. Because I don't have a steady group to work with yet, I really wanted to drive the 5 -7 hours to the trials to get a feel for how they work and how the nerves and atmosphere affect our performance at the line. I was thinking that if nothing else came of it, it may be worth the $80 entry fee to practice being at the line, feeling the nerves and see how she does. May still do that at the end of Feb. But not at the beginning of Feb, like I had wanted to. There's always another one in April. Pup is only 11 months now.


I didn't realize your pup was that young. I usually shoot for starting my dog in derbies around 14 months, and that is with a lot of formal field trail traing starting at six months of age and puppy training before that. That said Bev Burns, who is very experienced, ran and finished her Tully when he was nine months old, got him on the derby list at fifteen months.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> Agreed, train for the all-age and run the Derby as Howard indicated a Derby career is very short 18 months to 24 months . Sure there are dogs that place younger, but, the above age is more realistic.



Don't rush

With each passing year, I run fewer and fewer derbies. Lots of bad things for a young dog to learn in the derby, not that many good ones.  

I have two dogs that I could run this year, but depending on how they look overall, may not run at all. Regardless of my intentions, I would be hard pressed to run a young dog until it hit 20 months of age. 

The best dog that I have had - FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer (Buffy) - ran 6 or 7 derbies, won one. Won a Q in the Spring (April) right after she turned two. Put her back in training. Ran her again in September, got 4th in the Amateur. 

Miss Kitty ran 2 or 3 derbies. Then won a Q and an Am right after she turned 2.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Yup FC/AFC/CFC Yo You Kaytee KK won the Derby and got a second in the Amateur at the same trial at about 22 months old. I think she had 30 derby points as I recall and sold her just out of the derby. She ran her first derby at about 18 months and her last at two with 7 or 8 all age starts while in the Derby or just a short time out. She never developed line manner issues, but, was the exception with others I trained and sold. She was always trained with the all age in mind. If you are blessed with one of those great, otherwise take your time.


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## mbcorsini (Sep 25, 2005)

Jennifer,

Listen to Breck. I had fun in the two derbys that I ran. I finished one (you would have thought I had a Blue ribbon) and went out on the third series of the other. He was young and had not seen too much techincal water. You can walk to line with leash which was a comfort to me. While I learned he was steady, he used the whole mat. I am reducing the size of his mat . 


Mary Beth


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

mbcorsini said:


> Jennifer,
> 
> Listen to Breck. I had fun in the two derbys that I ran. I finished one (you would have thought I had a Blue ribbon) and went out on the third series of the other. He was young and had not seen too much techincal water. You can walk to line with leash which was a comfort to me. While I learned he was steady, he used the whole mat. I am reducing the size of his mat .
> 
> ...


Good tip, Mary Beth! Thanks! Sounds like it's worth all of the hard work of getting there!


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## davewolfe (Mar 22, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> Don't rush
> 
> With each passing year, I run fewer and fewer derbies. Lots of bad things for a young dog to learn in the derby, not that many good ones.
> 
> ...


Ted
Your one of the best amateur handlers out there. I think Jennifer is look for experience and to figure out where her dog is.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

One good thing about going to observe is that you'll get a better idea of how you think your dog will cope with derby setups. I guess asking the age of the pup should have been the first thing to ask about, but no harm done. Go, watch, learn, and enjoy. I don't think it's necessary to wait until you think you can win it to enter, but you do want to be capable enough to get through it without embarassing yourself, LOL.


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

Not sure whar Ted is saying. What "bad" things are learned in the Derby? If you have a genuine future FC-AFC candidate in training, on a proven program, Derby tests should fit in well with the normal training progresasion from 13-14 months and older. Maybe things have changed. Back in the late 70's and early 80's when derby entries were 40-60 dogs, triples were not that uncommon. Have Derbys regressed??


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

minnducker said:


> Not sure whar Ted is saying. What "bad" things are learned in the Derby? If you have a genuine future FC-AFC candidate in training, on a proven program, Derby tests should fit in well with the normal training progresasion from 13-14 months and older. Maybe things have changed. Back in the late 70's and early 80's when derby entries were 40-60 dogs, triples were not that uncommon. Have Derbys regressed??


Dogs running derby are usually right in the middle of transition training and have lots to learn. Too much derby with cheaty situations and short flyers will unravel some young dogs requiring remedial training which = bad because the dogs lesson plan is hosed. What often happens, especially with amateurs, is they don't recognize trouble nor have the stones to blow the whistle and pickup their dog when it creeps, cheats or switches what have you. Triples are rarely if ever seen in Derby. Judges that try triples these days will probably need to endure being run over by the bus.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

minnducker said:


> Not sure whar Ted is saying. What "bad" things are learned in the Derby?


A lot of young dogs get overexcited at trials and it very easy to develop lifelong line manner and control issue because you can't make corrections at a trial and dogs get trial wise to that very quickly. 

It's all about preventing bad habits from ever starting.


Don


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

minnducker said:


> Not sure whar Ted is saying. What "bad" things are learned in the Derby?



1. Poor Line Manners
2. Poor Line Manners
3. Poor Line Manners
4. Poor Line Manners
5. Poor Line Manners
6. Poor Line Manners
7. Poor Line Manners
8. Poor Line Manners
9. Poor Line Manners
10. Poor Line Manners


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Amen Ted. My dog learned your 10 lessons in derby REALLY well. Still working hard on correcting those habits 2 years later.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i judged a very tallented dog this fall in the derby, very young, could tell it was becoming unglued. i ran against it a month later and it was out of control.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> 1. Poor Line Manners
> 2. Poor Line Manners
> 3. Poor Line Manners
> 4. Poor Line Manners
> ...


If I could trade the 3 wins and 2 jams Raven got in 6 derbies for a dog that is easier to handle and has better manners on the line at a trial, I would do it. That is the reason that her daughter Peerless will likely not see a derby stake. I could be convinced to run her just before she turns two, but it won't be easy.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I'd guess 75% of field trial judges don't know what a clicker is so, you might be able to get away with using it on the line. The other 25% are deaf so, might be a good gamble.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I'd guess 75% of field trial judges don't know what a clicker is so, you might be able to get away with using it on the line. The other 25% are deaf so, might be a good gamble.


Handlers have used Clickers in Field Trails for years before Clickers were ever invented. 
Except it's called a pocket full of change.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Having read the entire post I find it interesting the conflict of opinions . It really boils down to knowing your dog & the level they have attained. Anyone who misses running their dog in the Derby is missing a treat. Aside from consistently poor judging, waiting for the major stake dogs to show, watching the dogs perform is in itself rewarding, & Derby tests go much faster . 

The list is long of those dogs who were & are NC's & NAFC's who were also campaigned in the Derby, in some cases extensively. Probably the most shining example of that would be River Oaks Corky, a true gentleman on the line, who won more than his share of awards . I could go on beyond that but hopefully you get the point.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> The list is long of those dogs who were & are NC's & NAFC's who were also campaigned in the Derby, in some cases extensively. Probably the most shining example of that would be River Oaks Corky, a true gentleman on the line, who won more than his share of awards . I could go on beyond that but hopefully you get the point.



Any more current examples - say within the past decade?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Breck said:


> Handlers have used Clickers in Field Trails for years before Clickers were ever invented.
> Except it's called a pocket full of change.


I remember Roy McFall jingling his coins often. When I was new to the game I didn't know what was going on, but over the years I really got an education watching him and others when they were on the line. It was fun to watch the dogs too.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Any more current examples - say within the past decade?


Maybe outside the last decade but, Chena River Ripple and Tanks a lot come to mind as being a few highly pointed Derby dogs that turned out decent?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

huntinman said:


> I remember Roy McFall jingling his coins often. When I was new to the game I didn't know what was going on, but over the years I really got an education watching him and others when they were on the line. It was fun to watch the dogs too.


And all this time I thought it was because he was frugal with his money and was wanting to see if he had money for a soda ...LOL


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Any more current examples - say within the past decade?


Frank the Fisherman with Carbon, Chopper & the pup he sold named Emmitt .


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Any more current examples - say within the past decade?


Ammo the all time Derby points leader is rock solid on line on the times Ive seen her. 
Bullet & Juice have done pretty good recently after accumulating a bunch of Derby points
Wasn't Banner the Derby Champ one year and then High Point Open dog the next?


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

According to the Retriever Results database (2004-2012):
FC NAFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade had 36 pts
NFC-AFC Seaside's Pelican Pete had 39 pts
NFC Watermark's Running Back had 27 pts

Some other NAFC and NFCs had just a few points.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

JKOttman said:


> According to the Retriever Results database (2004-2012):
> FC NAFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade had 36 pts
> NFC-AFC Seaside's Pelican Pete had 39 pts
> NFC Watermark's Running Back had 27 pts
> ...


Derby clearly ruined them.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

smillerdvm said:


> Ammo the all time Derby points leader is rock solid on line on the times Ive seen her.
> Bullet & Juice have done pretty good recently after accumulating a bunch of Derby points
> Wasn't Banner the Derby Champ one year and then High Point Open dog the next?


Once Ammo aged out, she did not compete for over 2 years in AKC. Obviously a very talented dog and obviously the derby did not ruin her! But I got the impression that her derby career took time away from all age training. So I guess it is about what you wanna do, how you wanna play.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am delighted that so many of you want to run the legs off of your young dogs. Makes my job in the All Age Stakes that much easier.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Maybe outside the last decade but, Chena River Ripple and Tanks a lot come to mind as being a few highly pointed Derby dogs that turned out decent?


Paul, I would argue with you over Chena River Ripple. I trained with her before, during and after her derby career. Her line manners and marking were excellent, blind control not so much.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I am delighted that so many of you want to run the legs off of your young dogs. Makes my job in the All Age Stakes that much easier.


 i thought i was the only one that felt that way.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Why didn't you pick the dog up when things began coming apart? I ruined my first dog by letting him creep and what not. I've said many times I would give the titles back if I could get the line manners back. I ran 7 derbies this fall with my second dog. Line manners were pretty good through the first six derbies. We had 2 wins and a jam at that point. In the seventh I could tell before the first series he was too loose. I made my mind up hat any creep would lead to a pickup. Butt came off the ground but no more in the first. He came off the mat in the second by about two feet all together. We picked up and went home. That's the best I've felt about myself in my short time running dogs. It was my first responsible decision to date I believe, haha. Not trying to condem you buzz or anything like that. Just curious how long you ha been in the game at that point and how your mindset has evolved. I've heard people say it takes ruining a talented dog and believe me once you e done it it's hard to take back.


Buzz said:


> If I could trade the 3 wins and 2 jams Raven got in 6 derbies for a dog that is easier to handle and has better manners on the line at a trial, I would do it. That is the reason that her daughter Peerless will likely not see a derby stake. I could be convinced to run her just before she turns two, but it won't be easy.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kip said:


> i thought i was the only one that felt that way.



As Big Jake would say "Not hardly."

I wonder why I bother to even post on the subject. Everyone is convinced that they are the exception, rather than the rule

Eight years ago, I was running Buffy in the Derby in Niland - the details are fuzzy. I remember a very promising young dog, who had line manner and noise issues. Everyone commented on it - behind the handler's back, of course. I went up to her and suggested that she take a break before the dog was ruined. She didn't, of course. And her dog was one of those who could pound the marks, but could never close the deal. And every trial, as a judge or competitor, I see more dogs and handlers go down the same path.

For those of you who think if Lottie can do it, so can you ... Hey, Kippy and I are laughing. And Bohn is ready to make you a client.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ted and others who judge, one of the things I've seen with Derby, as mentioned is the degradation of line manners, including creeping/vocal/ripping down holding blinds, breaking etc is that routinely judges will place these dogs. I've seen dozens of dogs so out of control and vocal, place never to be seen past derby again. I think judges indirectly reward handlers and encourage them to run derby even though it ultimately not in the best interest of improving the breed. While I understand the main goal of derby is marking, ultimatly the point of FT's is to find the best performing dogs and improve the breed. Placing these dogs and rewarding that behavior seems counter productive to those goals. 

/Paul


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> As Big Jake would say "Not hardly."
> 
> I wonder why I bother to even post on the subject. Everyone is convinced that they are the exception, rather than the rule
> 
> ...


This post insinuates that unless someone subscribes to your game plan they are wrong. Yet when provided concrete proof that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat you fail to acknowledge that can exist. 

Not all are blessed with someone willing to stay home do the tough stuff & allow absentee owner/competitors to reap the rewards . You are fortunate enough to live where you do & have those benefits. Putting a dog with a pro in this part of the country is on their terms not yours, so most of us muddle along as we do or did with many notable successes. 

I came close to buying Cosmo as a teenage Derby dog, when Terry saw I was interested he decided not to sell. I later passed that on to someone who knew the dog & both of us well as I was thankful for not having the dog with the attendant results. His comment "you would not have allowed that line manner situation to happen". 

It's not the dog - none of the dogs capable of competing successfully at the FT level train themselves - it's the owner & their ability to take the dog through a program to achieve a result that is satisfactory to the person paying the bills. A lot of people with dogs do not have the temperament to train anything at this level. There are a lot of judgments made along the way that affect the end result. 

3 people train together, week in & week out, all go to the same pro, pups are all from the same litter, yet the only pup that turns out is the pup picked last. That tells me there is a lot more personal in this sport than folks realize. As Guy Burnett said " talk to the trapper with the pelts, if you are going to be a trapper" ;-).


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Marvin S said:


> This post insinuates that unless someone subscribes to your game plan they are wrong. Yet when provided concrete proof that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat you fail to acknowledge that can exist.
> 
> Not all are blessed with someone willing to stay home do the tough stuff & allow absentee owner/competitors to reap the rewards . You are fortunate enough to live where you do & have those benefits. Putting a dog with a pro in this part of the country is on their terms not yours, so most of us muddle along as we do or did with many notable successes.
> 
> ...


Marvin, as you well know this game breeds experts. Just ask any of us who have ever thrown a mark or walked to to the line with a dog how to do anything with a mutt and we will have the answer. Not only that, we will tell you why your way is wrong. If don't believe me, just ask;-)

Heck, just sit in the gallery at any trial or especially a national and just listen... funnier yet, my wife was recording my run at a National one year... She recorded every series from the gallery. It was more fun listening to all the BS from those sitting around her than watching the tape! And they could plainly see that she was taping...


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

The Derby is supposed to be ALL about marking, nothing could be further from the truth.

Straight lines win FT's, the Derby is no exception. 
Dog A beaches early then goes _directly_ to the bird...Dog B stays in the water with the same outcome. 
In all else they are practically a carbon copy of each other with regard to all other aspects of their work.

.....they do not run another series so who places higher ;-)

john


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

john fallon said:


> The Derby is supposed to be ALL about marking, nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> Straight lines win FT's, the Derby is no exception.
> Dog A beaches early then goes _directly_ to the bird...Dog B stays in the water with the same outcome.
> ...


John, this deserves it's own thread & is off subject .


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

mitty said:


> Once Ammo aged out, she did not compete for over 2 years in AKC. Obviously a very talented dog and obviously the derby did not ruin her! But I got the impression that her derby career took time away from all age training. So I guess it is about what you wanna do, how you wanna play.


After Derby the dog ran in Canada due to AKC suspension.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Breck said:


> After Derby the dog ran in Canada due to AKC suspension.


CKC honors AKC suspensions!!!!!!!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OH OK, maybe the suspension was satisfied before then.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> As Big Jake would say "Not hardly."
> 
> I wonder why I bother to even post on the subject. Everyone is convinced that they are the exception, rather than the rule
> 
> ...


That does not mean all new people are not ready to listen. I think you all experienced members have much to offer and I appreciate that and your words of wisdom. Thanks and keep posting.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Breck said:


> After Derby the dog ran in Canada due to AKC suspension.





> CKC honors AKC suspensions!!!!!!!


I don't know the details (or at least don't want to talk about what I think I know)

But Ammo didn't run in the states for awhile.

She does have both Canadian titles,and had a very good showing (2012) in the Canadian Nationals.

She is also very close to finishing here in the States as well.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Breck said:


> After Derby the dog ran in Canada due to AKC suspension.


No she didn't. She ran in Canada in 2012. The same time she started back here.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> John, this deserves it's own thread & is off subject .


Perhaps you should reread the origional post.........Then read your posts on the thread

jphn


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Perhaps you should reread the origional post.........Then read your posts on the thread
> 
> jphn


Breaking News!!!, John and Marvin took their differences outside....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM2LB3eLTc0


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ted and others who judge, one of the things I've seen with Derby, as mentioned is the degradation of line manners, including creeping/vocal/ripping down holding blinds, breaking etc is that routinely judges will place these dogs.
> 
> /Paul



I can only speak as to how I judge. I will make notes on my judging sheet. For example
- Noise in HB, Noise on retrieve
- Forged to line
- 6' out
There have been dogs that I was prepared to drop (but dropped themselves before the end)
There have been dogs that I dropped places because of line manner, voice, etc. issues - upon consultation with my co-judge of course
It is a big deal to me. Not so big to others


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Breaking News!!!, John and Marvin took their differences outside....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM2LB3eLTc0


 My comment to you young guys - you have to reach that age to appreciate the journey ;-) -


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I can only speak as to how I judge. I will make notes on my judging sheet. For example
> - Noise in HB, Noise on retrieve
> - Forged to line
> - 6' out
> ...


I appreciate that approach. I cringe when I see people keep running dogs in Derby because they are "having success" and chasing the derby list despite the fact the dog is creeping and barking its head off. Once that is ingrained to 2 years old its a real issue to deal with. Most of the time you see those dogs end up being sold for gun dog work. To me a quiet morning in the duck blind does not include listening to someone tell their dog to shut up every 2 minutes. Sadly most of them don't listen when I tell them I can fix that if they just focus on training the dog.

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> My comment to you young guys - you have to reach that age to appreciate the journey ;-) -


just kidding... If I can manage to make it that far I'll name my dog John-Marvin...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Breaking News!!!, John and Marvin took their differences outside....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM2LB3eLTc0


You shouldn't post video's of you fighting with your brothers....

/Paul


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

1. Poor Line Manners
2. Poor Line Manners
3. Poor Line Manners
4. Poor Line Manners
5. Poor Line Manners
6. Poor Line Manners
7. Poor Line Manners
8. Poor Line Manners
9. Poor Line Manners
10. Poor Line Manners





Breck said:


> Dogs running derby are usually right in the middle of transition training and have lots to learn. Too much derby with cheaty situations and short flyers will unravel some young dogs requiring remedial training which = bad because the dogs lesson plan is hosed. What often happens, especially with amateurs, is they don't recognize trouble nor have the stones to blow the whistle and pickup their dog when it creeps, cheats or switches what have you. Triples are rarely if ever seen in Derby. Judges that try triples these days will probably need to endure being run over by the bus.


Do you think some of these bad habits are induced by poor Derby judging? Shouldn't we as judges and FT people encourage people especially those new to the sport to run their dog in the minor stake?

As a Derby judge, Cheating set ups should be outlawed and those beaking flyer set ups as well. As Derby judges should we not strive to set up good marking tests, after all that is pretty much what we are judging. 

I believe after a while you stand up and take notice of those judges you have witnessed judge a Derby where their set ups are not conducive to young Derby dogs, thus you avoid running under those judges!!!

I wouldn't avoid them all together BUT I would be very careful with who you run under and where your dog is at mentally/emotionally.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> just kidding... If I can manage to make it that far I'll name my dog John-Marvin...



"sit, way out, here, good, sit, here, good, right-there, JOHN-MARVIN". Dog goes out and starts chasing his tail......


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

jeff evans said:


> "sit, way out, here, good, sit, here, good, right-there, JOHN-MARVIN". Dog goes out and starts chasing his tail......



Oooh ooooh ooooh hahahahahaha literally rolling around clutching my stomach laughing so hard I'm crying!!!!! Post of the year!!!!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

jeff evans said:


> "sit, way out, here, good, sit, here, good, right-there, JOHN-MARVIN". Dog goes out and starts chasing his tail......


Probably from all that verbiage on the line... First rule of call name selection...... keep it short .

john


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I always wondered about people saying too many Derbies ruining a dog. Then the same dog is double staked in the Open and the Am. 20 times a year for the next 5 years.

Never heard anyone say that running 10 series at a National would ruin a dog either.

The Derby is the most "fun" phase of the "Field trial experience."


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

It really depends on the dog. If you have a Steady Eddie, I don't see the problem. Running mine helped her.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Jonathan McClendon said:


> You will have a choice who to hang out with when you get there. The guy laughing at John McCallie's dog cheating the water having a good time enjoying the sport or you can go hang with the experienced guy who looks pissed off might or might not speak to you in person, but don't worry, when you get back on the internet they will gladly share advice.



my dogs never "cheat the water"......hell, they avoid it altogether. btw if i didn't hang with folks who are laughing at my dogs i would be lonely.

"the really smart ones get there the fastest way possible, we are training the hunting ability out of our dogs." -_Robert Milner_......did robert say that of was it me?


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

if i look pissed off its just my personlity, didnt mean any harm.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Ok, so this is what I've gathered from this conversation regarding running your pup in the derby:

•Training: Do yourself a favor and get pup through Swim-by, water decheating. Make sure pup can do LOOONG marks and long tricky doubles. 

•Maturity or Steadiness: If you have a crazy lunatic who is only steady with an e collar on its neck, may want to work on steadiness and let pup mature before running.

•Readiness: If you have a pup who's steady when flyers are being shot as the first mark of a double and remains steady for the second mark, can run a decent line through land/water combos and is a really good marker at 350 yards - then go and have fun at the derby.

Bonus: If you meet all the above requirements, you can almost immediately enter the next phase of competition when you have aged out of Derby (as long as you've been training for blinds).

Any corrections or additions?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Maintain your standards.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Ok, so this is what I've gathered from this conversation regarding running your pup in the derby:
> 
> •Training: Do yourself a favor and get pup through Swim-by, water decheating. Make sure pup can do LOOONG marks and long tricky doubles.
> 
> ...


That's basically IT , but there will be detours along the way. Something always comes up new & unusual.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Marvin S said:


> That's basically IT , but there will be detours along the way. Something always comes up new & unusual.


Cool! Thanks everybody!! This has been a VERY enlightening conversation for me. I finally feel like I have a grasp on what the goals are.


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

And most of all, savor every precious moment on line of watching your baby dog work, it will fill you with unimaginable pride and joy!

Kathryn


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I'll add something. Very few if any judges are going to shoot the flyer first. So not to complicate things don't train on that stuff now. 
More important to run a boat load of singles off of multi guns. Teach dog a long complicated mark as a single then come back and run same mark as memory bird of a double. Find out the things you can do in training to prevent your dog from gun running and back siding guns.


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