# Thinking on your feet.



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I believe one of my biggest problems as a handler, is staying focused ,and being able to stay calm and think when things dont go well in training.. and tests.

I tend to get amped up,, then voice, actions, and attitude drastically changes with me. It affects the dog, most definatly in a undesirable fashion..

I watch experienced handlers that must have ice in their viens! 

What helps?


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Valium???

JS


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Practice. Visualization. Breathing. Practice


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I believe one of my biggest problems as a handler, is staying focused ,and being able to stay calm and think when things dont go well in training.. and tests.
> 
> I tend to get amped up,, then voice, actions, and attitude drastically changes with me. It affects the dog, most definatly in a undesirable fashion..
> 
> ...


Just experience and realizing that every failure is a learning experience and not the end of the world, especially in training. Regarding the training surprises, my first training partner had very good dog sense and taught me from the beginning to be open and quick to understanding when to change what you are training on. Don't ever try to win the training session or worry about how your dog does on a test compared to other dogs. For example, say you set up a nice triple with the long gun retired and you are anxious to see how you dog does on the long retired, but as you run your dog he creeps a bit and dodges to miss some obvious cover enroute to the go-bird. In my early days I would let those two things slip and let him run as I focused on that long retired. My friend taught me that at that point my training object just changed, the long bird was not important compared to the creep and dodge to avoid cover.We needed to re-call the dog to work on the creep and handle into the cover, correcting as needed.

Once I started recognizing and dealing with small issues, I realized the big picture was more important overall and that helped me relax in training. I actually felt good when a training opportunity popped up unexpectedly and I was quick enough on my feet to deal with it.

John


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> I believe one of my biggest problems as a handler, is staying focused ,and being able to stay calm and think when things dont go well in training.. and tests.
> 
> I tend to get amped up,, then voice, actions, and attitude drastically changes with me. It affects the dog, most definatly in a undesirable fashion..
> 
> ...


I know what you mean.....I am a newbie and ran our second Senior test....I was a mess at the line....extremely nervous. Pinned both marks and one whistled the blind.......thank's Harley for being such a good pup and not letting my nerves freak you out!!!! Less nerves on second series....passed with flying colors!


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## RedDog (Apr 27, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> I believe one of my biggest problems as a handler, is staying focused ,and being able to stay calm and think when things dont go well in training.. and tests.
> 
> I tend to get amped up,, then voice, actions, and attitude drastically changes with me. It affects the dog, most definatly in a undesirable fashion..
> 
> ...


It helps that you know your specific trouble area ("when things dont go well"). 

One thing we do for people with similar challenges is to sit down and make a flow chart. We describe the scenario and write down 1-2 short words. From there, we list the possible actions from the dog. We have one category called "everything else" and often "I'm confused!" For the "I'm confused/frustrated". For each possible action, whether it's the right response from the dog OR an error, we write down what our response will be. For "I'm confused/frustrated," it's often to call the dog back, put him up, and make a new plan OR " put the dog in a 30 second stay while reviewing notes. 

Before each session or each part of the session, read the notes before getting the dog out. 

Most people do NOT need this tool for long, but after using it diligently for a few weeks or months, the handler is automatically able to think through the dog options and handler response. Taking the time upfront to plan typically reduces the number of training sessions needed to accomplish the goal, decreases handler frustration, and increases the dog's performance. 

When I take a lesson with my dog, before each exercise I ask the instructor what response from -me- s/he would like to see if my dog does xyz. Ideally we won't have errors, but it's better to plan ahead and know the best possible plan in case of errors. 

At a seminar this weekend it was really painful to see the handler responses (and moreso, the LACK of response) to errors. They didn't have a plan ahead of time and ended up doing things that really messed the dogs up and the dogs had no clue what was going on or that undesirable things were happening.

Seriously though, the flow charts are great as a learning tool AND when working on new behaviors. I use it myself, and with students (even pet clients!). Writing it out and thinking through each steps helps many people to process the information, consider the options, and have a plan ready. It's not always easy to follow the plan, but by working ahead, you do increase the chances you will have an appropriate response!

The charts for tests are often different than in training and it's good to make that separate plan so you decrease the chance of falling into training habits or just freezing up. 

This is a --really-- great question and I'm going to enjoy all the responses!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

It's difficult to become another person. Recognizing the problem is only the first step. Humans have just as much of a problem dealing with adrenalin as dogs. You've probably seen the effects of using more pressure on an amped dog. It usually doesn't work. Therefore, each person must find ways to cope with their own pressures. 

For me, it has been a long process based on the idea that I had to change. Video tape yourself often and critique that person. Remind yourself continually that you need to change because the dog needs you. Convince yourself that the dog and you train often and are well prepared. That can be another issue, but it's not the real problem. 

If you work on your anticipation (what can go wrong), by expecting things to happen and have a plan to deal with them when they happen this will often replace the unproductive thoughts of "I am loosing it again." You can't use "Well, that's just who I am" as an excuse. Resignation can become comfortable. 

Several years ago at a pro trainer seminar, the presenter said "You need to walk the dog to the line like the two of you know what you are doing....and believe it". Focus on what you can do well rather that anticipating the appearance of the old you. This mental approach does not come quickly because it does take a different person than what you presently are to accomplish it. The seminar was several years ago......I'm finally beginning to understand it. 

Think about the dog that "looses it often". Most trainers will try to deal with it in the context of regular training. I have found that results are more likely to happen if you change up training to make the "issue" the primary focus. Dogs as well as trainers are perfectly capable of being out of balance. What are you working on to restore the handler's balance? Do you have a plan? or is it just supposed to spontaneously correct itself? 

Confidence cannot be faked. It takes time to nurture it. Most people seem to think that what they are now is what they will always be. They become resigned to it and often embrace it. Do that and you will forever be stuck with it. 

Change is always difficult. If you persistently work to restore your personal balance, there will come a time in training (or tests) where you will suddenly realize, "You know? I'm feeling more comfortable" and you will know the corner has been turned. 

I love this line, but it is so true...."There is either do......or not do."


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Great posts Red and Kwick. I wish I had thought of the notecards idea several months ago. It probably would have saved me some high BP moments with my dog. I am pretty consistent about making a plan, but having something in my pocket to look at when presented with a teaching opportunity (otherwise known as "when things go wrong") would help me take a minute, get refocused, and evaluate whether it's a "move up and simplify" issue (which I think about 90% of them are) or a "I have to fashion another approach to get this dog to do this issue."

Kwick, you are so right that it simply takes a lot of time and experience to make that confidence real.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Put yourself in the stressful situation as often as you can. If you can get enough people together on wkends to simulate a trial, do it. It is expensive to learn on the line in a real test but it is the best way to learn to deal with your stress. If you can, have someone stand behind you at the line and video tape your performance so you can watch yourself in action.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Recognize that it is "just a game". If the dog (or you) mess up, it's not the end of the world. (or even a good enough reason to have a bad day). Just use it as a learning experience and move on.

I was one of the worst when I first got in the game. I wanted to succeed so bad that I put so much pressure on myself that even the dog could feel it. Took a lot of fun out of it. When I finally learned to relax I enjoyed things so much more. 

Look at it this way... Is it worth it to get high blood pressure for a $2 ribbon?


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Two shots of Turkey, Dog to the line....


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

huntinman said:


> Recognize that it is "just a game". If the dog (or you) mess up, it's not the end of the world. (or even a good enough reason to have a bad day). Just use it as a learning experience and move on.
> 
> I was one of the worst when I first got in the game. I wanted to succeed so bad that I put so much pressure on myself that even the dog could feel it. Took a lot of fun out of it. When I finally learned to relax I enjoyed things so much more.
> 
> Look at it this way... Is it worth it to get high blood pressure for a $2 ribbon?


I am in the transition stage right now with that ,I to put to much pressure on myself to the point of not being fun and confusing the hell out of my dog,but soon realized that I dont have to do this and if I cant enjoy the game I should just stay home. Dont dwell on the bad but embrace the good!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I used to have note cards that I wrote each evening before a field trial, which listed what my goals for the upcoming day were. I would keep the cards with me, and read them in the truck before I got the dogs, and then again in the holding blind.

I don't use the note cards on weekends anymore, although I keep a training log with things to remember about each of my dogs.

However, at a National, I will write on my program, which I keep with me at all times, the things that I need to remember in general ... and the things that I need to remember for each specific dog. And I read my program notes when running through the holding blinds.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Good points about notes, etc. 

It's easy to become a spectator while you're running a dog. I learned that the hard way last year on a middle land mark; had I handled on it I probably would have passed our test, instead I just "watched the dog" do its thing instead of taking control and handling her to the mark.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> What helps?


I've found that having a dog that doesn't need you, except to take their birds is by far the best solution


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I believe one of my biggest problems as a handler, is staying focused ,and being able to stay calm and think when things dont go well in training.. and tests.
> 
> I tend to get amped up,, then voice, actions, and attitude drastically changes with me. It affects the dog, most definatly in a undesirable fashion..
> 
> ...


Mike

I think you need to not care what the observers think or say. I think you need to learn how to blot out everything except for what the dog is doing

I would start by never talking to the gallery when you are running a dog.

Not in the holding blind. Not on the line. Not at all.

​Ted


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Practice. Visualization. Breathing. Practice


I agree with Ted. 

I spent years being an athlete up through the college ranks and readily applied visualization and breathing into becoming a focused handler. Personally, it's become to much of a good thing as I sometimes find myself being to complacent at the line. 

Gooser - - Visualize yourself fly fishing on a perfect CO day right shortly before you go to the line. Take a big breath and signal for the marks. It's just the dog and you having some fun.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I coach clients to create a routine that they build every day in training and carry it to the test. Just like building muscle memory. Do the same things over and over again so they become habit. In the holding blind never spend time talking to anyone. The holding blind is the time to see in you mind how the test is going to play out. Which mark you get first and what order from there. Go over the "what if" scenarios, for example, what if he doesn't get the mark i want first, what if he head swings and doesn't see the memory bird, what if a gun doesn't go off, what if their is a no bird etc. Go through the scenarios in your head before hand and create a plan for them. Visualize success by visualizing how you're going to react to the test as it comes at you....

/Paul


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Here is another perspective on this issue. Often times we hear the description that college football is “too fast” for most freshman (just out of high school). Then when the skilled college player that has adjusted well to college football goes to the pros, suddenly the game is too fast........again. 

Using this analogy, training and testing can be just “too fast” for some handlers and they may remain kind of like the high school player that couldn't get “up to speed” for college ball. 

The secret is to learn how to first play well at a slower speed and find a way to adjust. The description of new handlers' abilities can be described on a Bell shaped curve. 50% start out below average (for many different reasons). One huge contributing factor is the game is too fast. Not everyone is up to speed. Which means there must be an effort to find a way to slow things down for many. By now you are probably wondering where this is going (or not). 

A couple of years ago, my “manic” pup, Daisy gave me fits in terms of not being able to handle tests. *WE* were not doing well. Accepting a premise in one of Lardy's articles from the Retriever Journal (testing issues), I decided to give Daisy a good chunk of time off from tests and (as he described) “ingrain new expectations”. 

At that time, her skills and mind were not in sync and I decided to slow her down. I created training situations like the “Long Wait Drill”, “Hunting Tuneups”, “Don't Move Drills, etc which focused on having a dog being more responsive and do nothing for long stretches of time. Removing the “ready, set, go” aspect during regular training sessions was a critical component of the process. This fit into the idea that it is nearly impossible to change by continuing to do more of the same. 

Which reminds me of a old teaching moment from long ago. A student of mine was upset about not being able to do the work. She lamented that her study time had
“max'd” out. She took very good notes in class and asked questions often. She was working but just not getting it. 

So I asked her what she intended to do. Her answer was, “I will work harder and spend more time studying”. I simply asked her, “Why would you want to continue doing more of what is not working?.

Therefore, we were going to do something different....do more than “lip service” to the issue. I did not immediately recognize all the benefits of these “slowed down” sessions. I must add that “It's not the dog” had become a regular warning. During the process, I did gradually become aware of how much more I was in control of each session and especially the dogs. Every dog seemed to be paying more attention because waiting was the focus. They wanted to find out what was next and I had time to think it through. There were rewards for waiting, being quiet and paying attention. Their responsive behavior became ”I'm available when you need me.” 

It was very empowering to actually feel in charge plus I had time to think and make adjustments during the sessions. The pace was slowed down enough so that new handler expectations developed. I became relaxed while working the dogs and their responses were similar. 

For eighteen months, we worked on getting back up to speed in a different frame of mind. At the onset of the first test back, I felt the some of the same anxieties flooding back as we went to the line, but it wasn't the same. The game wasn't nearly as fast for either of us. We had changed.


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

I took Ted's advice and also made cards. It helps to focus your mind to the task at hand. Over the last few years I've been fortunate enough to watch very good handlers ply their craft and one thing is always apparent to me. Slow, deliberate, methodical actions. Nothing hurried, no over the top emotions, just a steady eddie approach. While that may be easier said than done, I've tried to model my actions as such and to some degree I've had success, it helps. Comfort levels and confidence will come with experience. The only way to get experience is "Dog to the line". :razz:


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

One of the best ways to learn good handling and learn from watching bad handling is to take on a judging assignment. After you sit in the chair a while you start to take in things you never noticed before. You will see certain pros handle each dog in a calm precise manner and see it translate into good dog work out in the field, you will see the good, bad and ugly handlers, after a while you will totally know what each dog is going to do based on how the handler lines up his or her dog. One of the big things you will note is the smooth, slow cadence good handlers use when working their dog on line. After a couple judging assignments your own handling will dramatically improve.

John


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Lots of good advice here. I have a different perspective....please read this book:

That Winning Feeling by Jane Savoie

It is a book that will teach you about managing your nerves and staying calm while training and testing. She is a horsewoman, so several of the examples are related to that-but what she teaches applies to anything. It WILL solve your problem. If you would PM me your address, I will happily send you a copy in exchange for some new Flinch and Scotty photos.....


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## BHB (Apr 28, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> I believe one of my biggest problems as a handler, *is staying focused* ,and being able to stay calm and think when things dont go well in training.. and tests.
> 
> I tend to get amped up,, then voice, actions, and attitude drastically changes with me. It affects the dog, most definatly in a undesirable fashion..
> 
> ...


Are you like me... A.D.D.? Oh, there goes a butterfly,... look at that duck landing there,... look at those dragonflies mating,... dog? What dog? 
Yes it's hard to stay focused! I find that if I can focus just enough and remember just enough to get through that first series, in the the second I am a lot calmer! 

BHB


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

I have similar issues. My female lab knows what to do thanks to our pro trainer. At hunt test, I however do not know what to do. I try and try. I learn more all the time.

My nerves are a mess at a hunt test. My mind goes blank at the line no matter how much I think it over ahead of time. I am sure my girl reacts to me being so terrible as a handler.


The good thing is hunting is our #1 priority. And when hunting things come automatic to me without having to think about it. I daon't have the same problems when hunting and make a great team with my labs. Hunt tests are making us even a better team too.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thank You all for the responses.

Kwick.....

I have been told I HAVE to change.... EVERYTHING!!!

I know the conversation went to Holding blinds , tests ect.. but,,,I am not focused in such simple matters as basic obedience.

When problems arise,,,,,

My voice is wrong... My movements are wrong.. I know better,, but because things happen that derail my concentration,,, (dog lags, dog gets out of sit position,, ect My voice changes... Its more lowd, and severe. I tend to start "barking" commands.... I focus to much on what is wrong,, and fail to acknowledge what was done correctly and praise... I know better than this,,, but its what happens...
The focus goes away with me as soon as a problem shows up...

These are things that are going on in very basic obedience..

They compound when I get to the line and run the dog..


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Thank You all for the responses.
> 
> Kwick.....
> 
> ...



Well... as a last resort. maybe your training partner could put the collar on YOU. When you get too loud and antsy and a little too animated... time for some light stimulation... Just a thought...


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

The best way to learn is by putting your hand down over a dog's head, every time you possibly can. The lessons learned by going to the line and screwing things up are the lessons that will stay with you the longest. My wife is becoming an excellent handler. We have had the good fortune to train with a teacher. A teacher that is not just there to blow sunshine up your rear. Watch other handlers, good and bad. Watch their mistakes. And watch the things they do really well. Take away the positives and make them a part of your game if they fit. Remember the negatives. They are equally important to you becoming a better handler. If you ever lose that nervous feeling in your stomach, take up golf or tennis. Maybe that will move you the way these four legged animals we love so much do.


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Mike if you can find a class on self hypnosis take it!! I know it sounds like hocus pocus, but believe me it will help you.


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

You might be trying to do too much at once. Focus on one thing and get that the way you want it. Then move on to the next thing. Feel good that you did that one thing right! You will need to develop some mental and muscle memory for the new thing before you can effectively focus on something else. At least that's how it works for me. A second pair of eyes can watch everything else for you for the time being. 

If you tackle it in little bitty pieces, taking however much time is necessary to get each one right, you will be surprised how effectively you improve your focus and modify your behavior. Rome wasn't built in a day, ya know!

Kathryn


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## Old School Labs (May 17, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Well... as a last resort. maybe your training partner could put the collar on YOU. When you get too loud and antsy and a little too animated... time for some light stimulation... Just a thought...



Please.. please.... please, can I be the 1st to try it on ol' Gooser, he will jump right out of that pink camo thong. (bad image....delete)


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

What has helped me is understanding how factors effect what dogs do. How is that open slot going to affect when/where I blow a whistle, which cast will give the best result? How do I best use my body language to communicate with the dog for picking up the next mark? Am I reading the dog, what did he tell me on his return?
Experienced handlers have a finesse about them. They are slow and methodical and always seem to have a pre-determined plan. Pro's run more dogs in more tests than Average Joe Amateur ever will in lifetime. They understand how factors effect dogs and plan accordingly.
I can think of a few Pro's who I absolutely admire their handling skills and learn something every time I watch them run a dog. When I started in sales years ago, a mentor said to me, "Fake it 'til you Make it". Physically, I'm Cindy bringing the dog to line, but in my mind, I'm Joe Cool Cucumber and that's who is running the dog today.......well, at least every time I can get to that special place.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> What helps?


Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> One of the best ways to learn good handling and learn from watching bad handling is to take on a judging assignment. After you sit in the chair a while you start to take in things you never noticed before. You will see certain pros handle each dog in a calm precise manner and see it translate into good dog work out in the field, you will see the good, bad and ugly handlers, after a while you will totally know what each dog is going to do based on how the handler lines up his or her dog. One of the big things you will note is the smooth, slow cadence good handlers use when working their dog on line. After a couple judging assignments your own handling will dramatically improve.
> 
> John


Very good advice. Nothing like watching it first hand.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

*Quote:


Experienced handlers have a finesse about them. They are slow and methodical and always seem to have a pre-determined plan.


*I agree with this. Pros just seem to have a way about them. All movements seem fluid. They dont seem to ever panic. I watched Cherylon run Flinch on a lead this past weekend doing simple obedience with her..
I also watched as she critqued Flinces progress with my FF 
I had to listen closely to hear the command Cherylon gave the dog. It was very quiet. Her movements were precise, and she made sure the dog complied... The CORRECTION was smart... the PRAISE was exuberant.. The dog understood quite quickly..
It *LOOKS* very easy in person,, on DVD ect.... It *READS* easy too..... I really dont think it is.. I find it very hard to actually do it correctly.
She asked me if my FF had a plan, or if I felt it was hap hazzard!(sp) I didnt know how to answer.. She asked me why and when I pinched! I didnt have a very good answer.

My focus, and my ability to think on my feet is horrible. They can come apart very quickly. I am easily distracted at the line by comments, and find my concentration bouncing all over, listening to them. I respect what Ted suggested earlier about tuning it out and not talking ect,, but Gooser finds it hard to do.





Gooser


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

The mindset that if the dog is doing it wrong it's MY FAULT, not his, was the biggest thing that got me going in the right direction.

Just stop if it's going wrong and think every time... "How am I going to teach him this?".

Sometimes it's lack of reps / reinforcement. Some of the lessons are extremely complex (running straight lines for instance) for a dog to understand. Sometimes someone missed something in basics and you're now seeing it. 

Overall though, you have to always be thinking about how to progress the dog through the skills you need to teach. This brings me to a mindset where my emotions are no longer part of the equation.

Pretty soon you'll find yourself saying "OK buddy, let's try it this way" instead of "YOU DUMB SOB WHY DON'T YOU LISTEN!"


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Here's a story RE comments from the peanut gallery Mike. 

When I got my first sizable boat (a 22 ftr), I started out boating with my father, who incidentally had never run a boat this size either. We always ran on water with a tide so docking can be tricky in certain places due to current and wind conditions. When we first began, Dad would stand next to me (like fathers do) and bark orders... Slow down, steer right, steer left, back up, and so on. 

One day I took my wife out who knows nothing about boats or docking in tide/wind. She was obviously silent and let me do my thing. With her, I always hit it pretty much on the money and never crashed or had to make multiple attempts. 

Next time Dad was along I asked him to keep his comments to himself and let me do my thing. He did, and we were successful.

So, it's sometimes best for me to ask my mentors to coach me after the fact rather than in the moment. That, OR have one person coach me, stop thinking all together and just do what they say until I develop the muscle memory to do it on my own. Multiple people making comments is too much distraction for me, I know that.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> *
> *I respect what Ted suggested earlier about tuning it out and not talking ect,, but Gooser finds it hard to do.
> 
> Gooser



I think you need to stop explaining why you can't do something and simply do it

Start with something small. Like I will not talk to others when I am in the holding blind. Or I will not talk to others when I am on the line 

Ask people in advance not to talk to you or make comments

Do what needs to be done to be successful


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I attended a Todd Bender- Lanny Bassam skeet shooting clinic, and Todd has a great pre shot routine..in between stations he will actually let his mind go free of the upcoming task at hand either by chatting with someone or by enjoying the scenery of the shoot that he is at....BUT when his turn is coming up he goes into auto pilot and starts processing the target in his mind, goes thru his pre shot routine, shoulders the gun, and calls for the bird..his ability to turn the switch on/off allows him to focus on each shot instead of trying to stay focused for an elongated period of time

the best handlers I have watched are stone cold blooded assassins, all business when they start walking to the first holding blind, they cut out all distractions ESPECIALLY CONVERSATIONS, but they also relax and gather their thoughts and the dog's attention...some may think they are aloof but I think they are singularly focused for the task at hand...I think that people who have competed in sports have a distinct advantage because they are able to channel their energy and focus by eliminating the clutter and distractions


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> *Quote:
> 
> 
> Experienced handlers have a finesse about them. They are slow and methodical and always seem to have a pre-determined plan.
> ...


*

I don't mean any disrespect but do you take any medication for your attention disorder?

Comparing yourself to the actions of a Pro or even to Ted for that matter will get you in trouble. Don't get me wrong, great tools (Cherylon & Ted) to learn from no doubt however I believe you do yourself a disservice by that type of comparison. You set yourself up for failure. Rome wasn't built in a day, baby steps, watch and learn from newer but better handlers than yourself, Lainee or John. As with dogs, move up to simplify move back to challenge. 

I like to use my golf analogies to place a calming affect on me. 1) Visualize what it is you need to do 2) Focus on that task 3) Execute the visualization. Another golf analogy, when you make a mistake you let it go. You learn from it but you DO NOT beat yourself up over the missed shot/opportunity. If you carry it with you it will haunt you for the next 17 holes/remaining training session.

GOOD LUCK and be patient.*


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

There is a reason Pros are dog trainers and not desk jockeys. For some people being in tune with a dog is VERY natural, others, like yourself, have to work at it . Think about all of the dogs pros have had at the end of their lead. I know with obedience dogs, retrievers and pointing dogs I have had my hands on at least 5000 + dogs. (started obedience 25 yrs ago)That does not include observing boarding dogs or developing pups. That is alot of dog experience. How many have you trained? 2? Give your self a break and keep practicing, observing, practicing and observing some more.
The biggest thing is SLOW down and often, soften your tone. If your brain is frazzled , the dog gets that message.


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

Best thing anyone has ever told me.......

" If your trainin and your dog did everything right,,,,,

Youve taught nuthin....." 


Think about it


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Old School Labs said:


> Please.. please.... please, can I be the 1st to try it on ol' Gooser, he will jump right out of that pink camo thong. (bad image....delete)


Oh Lord! I've gotta go wash out my brain. The image of Gooser jumping out of his pink camo thong has been burned into it.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I think you need to stop explaining why you can't do something and simply do it
> 
> Start with something small. Like I will not talk to others when I am in the holding blind. Or I will not talk to others when I am on the line
> 
> ...


I could not agree more. Gooser, the more time you spend sitting around moaning about not being able to do whatever it is you're working on, the worse off you'll be. Decide you ARE going to do what needs to be done to be successful, as Ted said. Get the negative thoughts, reasons and excuses out of your mind. I am very envious of the training group you are with. You need to focus on watching each of them, what they do from the truck to the blind, blind to the line, on the line before, after and between birds etc... and emulate them when it's your turn. 

A quick story; Over 20 years ago I decided to go into car sales. At first I was ok but not great. I was nervous, didn't feel comfortable and made many mistakes. My manager sat me down one day and said "Rick, you aren't a natural born salesman, it's just not who you are. But that doesn't mean you can't be successful at this." He went on, "think of yourself as an actor on a stage. No matter their background or experiences, when the curtain goes up actors flip a switch and _become _their character. They play the part. When you are getting ready to walk up to a customer, play the part of a great salesman, flip that switch."

I have used that advice many times over the years. It helped me get over a fear of public speaking...by playing the part of a great public speaker, for example. 

Maybe it sounds corny but it really works for me. I still tell myself to "flip the switch" when facing a situation that makes me nervous or intimidated.



Wade said:


> I don't mean any disrespect but do you take any medication for your attention disorder?
> 
> Comparing yourself to the actions of a Pro or even to Ted for that matter will get you in trouble. Don't get me wrong, great tools (Cherylon & Ted) to learn from no doubt however I believe you do yourself a disservice by that type of comparison. You set yourself up for failure. Rome wasn't built in a day, baby steps, watch and learn from newer but better handlers than yourself, Lainee or John. As with dogs, move up to simplify move back to challenge.
> 
> ...


While I get your point that gooser isn't going to be as good as Cherylon, Ted etc... right away, I disagree about not comparing himself to them. The easiest/best way to become great at anything is to watch, listen and learn from those that are at the top of their field. If you aim for the middle, that's where you'll land.



mudd said:


> Best thing anyone has ever told me.......
> 
> " If your trainin and your dog did everything right,,,,,
> 
> ...


Great advice I too have received...and have to remind myself of every so often.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Comparing yourself to the actions of a Pro or even to Ted for that matter will get you in trouble. Don't get me wrong, great tools (Cherylon & Ted) to learn from no doubt however I believe you do yourself a disservice by that type of comparison. You set yourself up for failure. Rome wasn't built in a day, baby steps, watch and learn from newer but better handlers than yourself, Lainee or John. .


I disagree. I would not model myself after anything but the best - in this case Cherylon. Why learn bad habits that you will have to unlearn?

However, I would watch others to see what they do wrong or right. And I would then make very deliberate decisions about what I wanted to do for myself.

I think that improvement is about focus and hard work. This sport rewards those who are diligent and dedicated.

I think that most people in training or at a field trial are more interested in socializing than in getting better.

I think that if a person wants to get better, they will.

I believe that true students find teachers and that true teachers find students.

But, I don't think there are many true students out there


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

There are great handlers on here who give you great advice, I am a lot like Gooser with all his traits a scarey thought. I find when I use my sense of humor things go better in training. I recently lined my dog up on a blind and he lied to me and took a horrible initial line. I stopped my dog and in an incredulous tone said "Really?!?! That's what you are going to do?!?!?" everyone with me busted up laughing and I fixed the problem with a smile on my face. Stopping and saying that gave me time to think and relax. 
Judging is a great way to learn. I watched many dogs run as a judge and it helped me a lot to tell what a dog was going to do before they do it. Knowing what your dog is going to do before they do it is great for getting you relaxed. Keeping a dog from getting in trouble is way easier than fixing it after the dog is in trouble.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

You have to be in control of yourself to be in control of your dog, and of the scenario you are presented with. Your brain needs to be quiet and focused. Otherwise, you will be distracted and not paying attention to what is important. Until you are able to tune out everything except what you and your dog need to get done in the next couple of minutes, you will not make much progress. Worrying about what others think is just a way to sabotage your efforts before you even begin. You are in control of what happens, so if you are not happy, change it.....excuses are a cop out. You expect your dog to go calmly to the line, focus on what it sees, and do what is required. Those rules apply equally to the handler!


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

I believe your 'problem' is that you want success too much. The day hasn't even begun and your focusing on reviewing your end of the day notes and tomorrow and the next day....

your best 'defense' against yourself is before you take the dog out of the crate is to only concentrate on what is happening at each step - not what will happen when you get over there or over there - but focus in the here and now.
Don't think about recapping the end of the day - it hasn't happened yet. 

Essentially - you are thinking waaaay more than you have to at any given time.
Your dog knows you are not in the here and now. This confuses your dog. When you attend the here and now the sessions with your dog will be different and you WILL notice it. 

You can do it - you don't want to.
You want the irratic behavior b/c it is a safe place for you.

Think of yourself as a dog behaviorist with a client's dog and you are giving the client a moment by moment assessment.
Will your client have faith in your assessment if you are unsure,nervous and filled with anxiety? 

YOU CAN DO IT


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Rick C said Quote:
I am very envious of the training group you are with. You need to focus on watching each of them, what they do from the truck to the blind, blind to the line, on the line before, after and between birds etc... and emulate them when it's your turn. 


I absolutly know how fortunate I am that I can attend and train with this group.. Every one of the people there can and do teach me something every week.
I do watch each one of them very closely when they run. All of them are experienced,and do nice work at the line.

I feel like a High School ball player on a professional ball field. Most everthing is intimidating to me.The distance, the tightness of most of the set ups.The dogs there just amaze me when I watch them run. Even when they make mistakes and get corrected, its all done professionally and with reason.

I try and stay away from getting a chair out and sitting with the group. Thats another distraction that will gobble me up. I stand. I do try and watch the handlers.... all of them.

My day Saturday was particuarly bad. bad in the fact that I thought I had really worked hard during the week on things I wanted to see the PUP accomplish at the next training day..Basically, I wanted to observe the dog see the bird, mark it,, and HUNT when she got there.
The last set up. the watermark, there was quite a bit of land before the water entry. The bird was thrown where I felt uncomfortable with it. I stood there worrying about it all as i watched and waited to run.

The dog left my side seeing the bird well, seemed determined to get it, entered the water with great enthusiasum,, but got hung up in decoys,, and couldnt find the bird. They let her hunt for quite a bit, she stayed in there and worked hard,, but just coulnt find the bird. The BB helped,, and she started to come back with the retrieve.

I turned around to the Gallery whinning about all the things that I stupidly stood there worrying about,, then Ted said "Mike Call your dog in"!
I turned around and the dog was takin the bumper back to the BB

It was Total loss of focus on my part! I felt the need to turn around to the gallery and explain myself! and Whine some more.

When the day ended and I was talking to Cherylon. She told me. "You have to change" She said, "I dont know how you are going to do it, but "You Must"

She told me "You should have been elated the dog marked,, ran with good desire, and entered the water without hesitating ,and went straight to where the bird fell. thats all you could be asking for at your puppys stage in life... relax.and dont worry about the pup needing help to complete the retrieve."

I concentrated on NONE of that! the things I saw was what she had trouble with.. This is a 6 month old puppy folks!:
It was a bad day! 

I need to change!---- Everything! I need focus! I need to overcome distraction.I need to think before I do.

Thank you all for your sugestions. It is an interesting read for me.

Gooser


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree. I would not model myself after anything but the best - in this case Cherylon. Why learn bad habits that you will have to unlearn?
> 
> However, I would watch others to see what they do wrong or right. And I would then make very deliberate decisions about what I wanted to do for myself.
> 
> ...


You and Rick might want to re read my post and give it a little deeper thought. That is why I would disagree with both of you. Of course we aspire to be better and watching the best will help get you closer to that goal. Comparing yourself today will discourage your progress. That's why I made the comment about Rome and baby steps.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> You and Rick might want to re read my post and give it a little deeper thought. .


Not likely


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

MooseGooser

Sent you a PM. Totally different subject matter.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

Gooser
all great comments, but if you reread your own posts, you will find your answers. 
One is - you say you focus on the negative instead of the positive that you and your dog do during a session. That is all on you to start to look for the good things to build on. 

The second thing you say is that others are smooth in their execution and you are hap hazzard. I would sugest that they have a plan - and you MAY have a plan - but their plans all have contingencies built in for when they see the dog can/will make mistakes. You are trying to react when it happens and do it poorly according to your own standards. So for example, when Cherylon is teaching your dog basic things, she is calm because she has a plan and years of experience - and a plan on what to do when Flinch makes a mistake on how to correct and teach the new concept. Or during a mark/blind, She or Ted will know where the dog will likely have to make a decision and if they make the wrong decisioin, what they will do and how to do it to correct the dog to teach the proper response. You get surprised and react late or not at all, or in your words, hap hazardly and can't explain why.

You are SO MUCH BETTER than a year ago. Take credit for that!!!! One step at a time.

I need to get up there and play with that group again. Too busy this summer.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Here's another thing for the more experienced folks to think about.

There's an old story about Stan Musial being asked how to hit a slider at spring training one year by a rookie. Stan grabbed a bat, told the pitcher to throw a slider, and promptly nailed it into the right centerfield gap. He turned to the rookie, handed him the bat, and said "Like that." Of course, this was no help whatsoever.

I am a rookie myself, and while I try to watch as many handlers as I can, the challenge is that sometimes I have no idea what they are doing, and more importantly why they are doing it. Particularly frustrating are the folks who tell me "Well I can't tell you how to do it. I can only do it when I'm doing it." I sometimes wonder if I will watch forever and still not be a whole lot closer to total consciousness, to borrow from Caddyshack.

For all of you more experienced folks who will take the time to stop and explain what you are doing and why, and who don't skip from step A to step E because you assume that I know as well as you what steps B, C, and D are, thanks a million.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Mooser is lucky he doesn't train with our group, they would smack gooser upside the head for complaining a 6 month old had to be helped on a bird and smack gooser upside the head again for taking his eyes off of a 6 month old pup before it was back and had given you the bird. After repeated offenses of these types we switch to wiffle ball bats or healing sticks and if you dont learn after a few more times we switch to a 2x4.  if you talk to much while running your dog we tape your mouth shut with a slit left for the whistle.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

While it is definite that you can learn a lot about reading dogs, factors and mistakes of handlers, while judging, you can also learn these things by watching and running different dogs. Is anyone else slightly concerned with judges taking on judging assignments, who may not have enough experience to read dogs, know these factors, have a strong knowledge base, and are also pretty good at handling their own dog at the level they are judging. Judges pass judgement on others, thus they should be pretty knowledgeable in all of these aspects in order to be qualified to judge. I would hesitate telling anyone to start judging with the primary purpose of learning, they should already know. It would scare me greatly running under such a judge. Judging is too give back after you have accomplished, pickup a few tidbits as you go on sure, but the knowledge base needs to be there first.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Gooser,

Can you think lying down? Just a thought!


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> While it is definite that you can learn a lot about reading dogs, factors and mistakes of handlers, while judging, you can also learn these things by watching and running different dogs. Is anyone else slightly concerned with judges taking on judging assignments, who may not have enough experience to read dogs, know these factors, have a strong knowledge base, and are also pretty good at handling their own dog at the level they are judging. Judges pass judgement on others, thus they should be pretty knowledgeable in all of these aspects in order to be qualified to judge. I would hesitate telling anyone to start judging with the primary purpose of learning, they should already know. It would scare me greatly running under such a judge. Judging is too give back after you have accomplished, pickup a few tidbits as you go on sure, but the knowledge base needs to be there first.


 YEP. That crossed my mind as well.

Recently my dog ran her first qual and she went out on the blind but on the next series I noticed that one judge was having to take the retrieved birds back along way to the bird rack while the other judged the blind,I offered to help and in doining so I put myself in a position to see/hear what the judges saw/heard and it was a good learning experience for me to be on the line.It is very good spot to learn about what the pros do at the line ,but I wouldn't think that if you are still in that faze of learning dogs that you would be willing to judge someone else's dog.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> I stood there worrying about it all as i watched and waited to run.
> 
> 
> I turned around to the Gallery whinning about all the things that I stupidly stood there worrying about,, then Ted said "Mike Call your dog in"!
> ...


Just from what you've said here I get a strong sense that you are spending way too much time worrying that your handling and your dogs work will not "measure up" with the rest of the group.

Training is not a competition. Nobody wins the training day. EVERY dog has good and bad days. EVERY handler makes mistakes. 

Every handler that is part of your group has been where you are now. Every handler in your group has had a dog do something really bad and/or embarrassing in front of a training group, if not at a test/trial. 

It sounds like the group as a whole and Cherylon in particular are doing all they can to support and encourage you. What are you so worried about? Are you letting your ego, and fear of looking silly (or whatever adjective you want to use), or your dog looking silly, get in the way of making the most of the opportunity? As said before, stop focusing on what didn't go "perfect" and focus on what you and your dog did well so you can build on that during the next set up or training day.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> For all of you more experienced folks who will take the time to stop and explain what you are doing and why, and who don't skip from step A to step E because you assume that I know as well as you what steps B, C, and D are, thanks a million.



Fair enough.

But, if a person wants to learn, he/she needs to ask for help, and when she/he receives it, listen, think about it and not argue

There is nothing worse than a person who asks for advice and argues as it is being given. 

I find that I need to do the same myself and remember that God gave us two ears and one mouth, so that we would listen twice as much as we speak


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Great advice, Rick_C, and something I continually remind myself about. It's training, not testing.

It seems like this principle would also apply to running setups. Just because the 6YO GRCH ran it from there doesn't mean your 1YO TTGT (Trying to Get There) needs to run from the same place. It is up to you to get on the radio and say "Let's do this, because my dog is not ready for that." If everyone else just smacked a triple, you still need to step up and say my dog needs this thrown as three singles, all guns unretired, if that's where your dog is in training. I had to do this a couple weekends ago.

Case in point. I'm training at the Cattle Ranch with a great trainer, and he's doing some cheating marks. I step up (I didn't yet know any better) to run from the same place his dogs ran from. He says "Will your dog stop on the whistle?" I said "Probably." He told me to move up and change the angle where it would be clear to my dog that he needed to get in the water; otherwise, I might have spent 5 minutes training in a cheat that would take me 5 months to train out.

Of course, had I been by myself, I would not have even known to be careful of that. So again, more experienced folks, thank you for taking the time to stop and explain to us rookies that we should take a minute and think about what we are doing, and for taking even more time sometimes to just go ahead and tell us what to do and why. And for those of you who will ask first why we rookies are doing something and make us think about what we are doing and why, there is a special place in Heaven waiting on you.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

When I initially started HRC I was really nervous at a test especially with the gun! and still do get nervous in Finished ?? However I find the biggest help to me is to teach (myself and the dog) routine. That is I learned what I was supposed to do each trip to the pail. I taught the dog, not tested, concepts that would be in the HRC Finished test. If I day in day out approach the line and train the same way, I am better off at a real test. I find this assists me keeping level headed and I take a calmer approach to working my dog. Also this sport is not life and death so have fun is #1!! in my opinion!!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But, if a person wants to learn, he/she needs to ask for help, and when she/he receives it, listen, think about it and not argue
> 
> ...


Very true. 

The pro I've worked with is very generous with his time and advice if someone asks. He is also very quick to stop giving his time and advice if the handler consistently argues with and/or ignores the advice given.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Not likely


I agree with you Ted, to MODEL yourself after another person is what you should strive to do. COMPARING yourself to someone who is at the top of the game, like Cherylon, I believe you do yourself a disservice when you are starting something new. 
You are talking about Modeling, I'm talking about Comparing. In my opinion they are not the same but are different.
One last thing, please try to be NICE. Believe it or not, I have very good eyes. I don't need things typed in bold letters.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> You and Rick might want to re read my post and give it a little deeper thought.


Wade

Read this again and tell me whether it was "nice" or condescending.

As for bolded lettering, when I type on my phone, I have little control over the results. 

​Ted


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Wade
> 
> Read this again and tell me whether it was "nice" or condescending.
> 
> ...


Ted, I can honestly tell you that there was never any intention of it being condescending. If that is how it was taken then I do apologize for that. I felt that maybe it was read in the wrong context and if read again it might make better sense.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Ted, I can honestly tell you that there was never any intention of it being condescending. If that is how it was taken then I do apologize for that. I felt that maybe it was read in the wrong context and if read again it might make better sense.



Not how I read it the first, second, or third time. But, it's done


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Montenieri said:


> I took Ted's advice and also made cards. It helps to focus your mind to the task at hand.



I was cleaning my desk at home and found a 3x5 note card that I carried with me at the 2007 National Amateur. Here are my notes:


Soft eyes
Slow and easy to the line
Focus on key bird
Settle into the go bird
Send with appropriate voice
Subtlety


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

FinnLandR said:


> Please explain "soft eyes", I've not heard that before.



Let everything come to you. Focus on nothing in particular, but be aware of all that is around you.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Not how I read it the first, second, or third time. But, it's done


I mentioned COMPARING, you mentioned MODELING. 2 different ways of discussion. Modeling yourself after the best YES, Comparing yourself to the best at the start of something, NO.

I hope you have a WONDERFUL day of training with Cherylon.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> I mentioned COMPARING, you mentioned MODELING. 2 different ways of discussion. Modeling yourself after the best YES, Comparing yourself to the best at the start of something, NO.
> 
> .


​We disagree. Give it a rest.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Let everything come to you. Focus on nothing in particular, but be aware of all that is around you.


That sounds like pretty good advice in general, not just for running your dog. Reminds me of things I heard years ago as a student of Kenpo.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

One would think that after awhile, there could be a parallel drawn between the lengthy efforts trainers go to "fix" issues in a dog's makeup and the issues trainers themselves have with training. Every single day, there are posts where trainers ask for training help. Often those threads contain "help" in the form of drills or techniques that seemed to work for others. This "help" all to often seems to ignore the fact they might not even be related to the dog's real problem or the trainer really doesn't know what he is doing. 

So now we have this marvelous thread where everyone tells what worked for them. For me this was very revealing as to what worked for others. However, it does not take into account the reality that trainer personalities, experience, skills and the level they are working at is probably quite different than the poster looking for help. The end result is the poster has to sort out the many seemingly valid suggestions of individuals that are not anywhere close to the same personality, skill level and mental makeup of the OP. Does anyone think this is a serious problem? 

The only thing we all seem to agree upon (including the OP) is there needs to be a change. However, in my opinion most "seekers of help" are looking for a "magic bullet" because hidden behind the seemingly simple request is the desire to keep it simple and avoid the obvious. The person seeking help must make a serious effort to change themselves. Recognizing and doing are often light years apart. 

The major issue is not changing how to train, but who they are. One will never make much progress in improving unless the focus is placed where it belongs. Personality and mental makeup "issues" can be a great impedance to attaining quality retriever training skills. In addition, there is a great deal of misunderstanding created by thinking that all you have to do is "Do as I do.".........when you aren't me. 

Here is a link to excerpts from an article on "change". Notice the key elements. If you want to become a better dog trainer.......often times it requires working at being a different person.........not breathing differently, or attempting to mimic techniques or temporary pretending you are someone else. 

Change is difficult because what you are now is the result of many years of "practice". Notice I did not say "perfect practice". A simple "drill" or using a temporary, phoney persona will at best be like crutches.......and we all know what happens to a retriever when crutches become a regular part of training. 

*Change (link)*


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jim I get what you are saying, some people are just naturally calmer, better performers in the heat of the battle, better test takers, while others tend by their personality to get more flustered. Those who are naturally inclined to be calm and cool under pressure definitely have a big leg up as handlers over those who are not, but I believe, with experience and careful observation, even the most flustered can improve dramatically. We also have to take the dog into the equation. I have two dogs, I believe even Gooser (no offense Gooser) could run my Steady-Eddie Alex and turn in a good performance, where it would probably be a disaster waiting to happen if he took Gus to the line.

John


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I fully agree. 

I would point out that sometimes one man's "arguing" is another man's "well here's what I thought (letting you know that I have actually put some thought into what I am doing, however incorrect it may be)" and now explain to me why mine is not correct and yours is so I can truly understand why you are doing it the way you are doing it. *If you just tell me what, without explaining why, I am not sure I get a whole lot out of it*.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard my training mentor say "Well, I can see how you got where you got, but that's not right and it is likely to cause X down the road. Here's what you need to do and why." He knows I am putting in the time to try and understand, but he also knows it's easy to go entirely wrong when you are as inexperienced as I am. IOW, I am trying my best to train my own dog with your help, not let you train my dog for me.

Does this make any sense at all?



Ted Shih said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But, if a person wants to learn, he/she needs to ask for help, and when she/he receives it, listen, think about it and not argue
> 
> ...


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> ​We disagree. Give it a rest.


Righty-Oh.


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## mikebosmans (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm actually a little sad to see this thread petering out. I don't think some of you more experienced people understand exactly how much knowledge can be had from what has been written so far.

I know for me, I have already changed a few things in my training sessions. We come to the training line like we own it now. I am less concerned about "seeing if she'll do it" we've focused more on stretching what we do know a little further each time instead of moving up the scale of difficulty or distance by large bounds each time.

I am more relaxed in general. My girl is 17 months, she *IS* a hell of a gun dog already, better than my last, and better than most I have hunted with. She's not titled yet, mainly due to my work schedule, but I am worrying less and less about getting those titles on her as fast as I can. Not saying we aren't training towards them, or my goals have shifted, but my timeline has. There's no rush.

I didn't know a thing about tests when I bought her wasn't even sure if I wanted to ever run in one. Yes, the test bug has now bitten me now too, but I just put the breaks on the race to a title this week. Instead, I am going to just enjoy the journey more than anything. Funny thing is, the dog is already enjoying it more too. 

We've got a couple passes in HRC and AKC and I know it's going to feel great to have those ribbons on display. That will come in time. I've been thinking about it and at first I wanted to have those ribbons to show to the world that I've got this great dog. The more I think of it though, I want those ribbons to put up in the corner of the garage, not exactly hidden, but not front and center in the midst of a grand tribute wall dedicated to my dog. I want them to sit quietly in that corner and let them catch just my own eye every now and then. 

I look at our first three ribbons, and it just makes me smile. We've come a long way already. We're never going to nationals, doubt we'd ever see a grand. Twisted Arrow Alphabet soup might look on a pedigree, but those ribbons in my garage look even better. They tell a story that only I can read. They tell me I've made mistakes. They tell me we've both put a lot of effort in to fixing my mistakes. They remind me that I have a great dog. She may not have the natural ability that some of your dogs have, but she lives up to my expectations every day. Most of the time she exceeds them.

They prove that you can't force a dog to learn a concept. You have to take what you get from her and build on it. That is how you accomplish. They show that my dog doesn't care how many times I screw up. Given my new found attitude and god willing, plenty of days, we will accomplish much together.

Because of this thread, we are much more focused on quality instead of quantity. We are reading each other better. We aren't doing the ready-set-go training that we were. 

My voice is getting softer, my corrections gentler, my blood pressure is lower. 

My dog is sharper, she's enjoying herself more, and she searches my soul with her eyes, and she tells me "She'll be ready when I need her."


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> My voice is getting softer, my corrections gentler, my blood pressure is lower.
> 
> My dog is sharper, she's enjoying herself more, and she searches my soul with her eyes, and she tells me "She'll be ready when I need her."


Well said, Mike........"You get it!"


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

mikebosmans, very good post.

Rick


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Yes that was a very encouraging post. It's nice to see someone who gets the big picture and is not in a race to have the youngest MH ever.

John


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

"she searches my soul with her eyes, and she tells me "She'll be ready when I need her."...........That got me all choked up and teary.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

mikebosmans-good for you, and congratulations. You and your dog will enjoy each other's company for long, long time.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

What happened to the Gooser?!? 

Hope we didn't scare him off...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> What happened to the Gooser?!?
> 
> Hope we didn't scare him off...



:razz::razz:

Dint scare Gooser off!

I have been trying to digest some of the P.M. that Kwick Labs sent me. It included the article he posted about personal change. He gave me quite a bit tothink about. It was long,, and a lot for Gooser to mull over.
Thanks Kwick,, very much appreciated.

I was the O.P. of the thread. My object was to ask a question, then listen.Many things have been said here to make me think..
I really need to grow up, and get over being intimidated in certain situations. I also need to tone out absolute nonsensical comments when I am trying to run the dog and concentrate...

My goals for GROUPTRAINING DAYS are this so far.

1. Ask questions BEFORE I go to the line with the dog at training days. Know inadvance if It would be wise to move up, have good movement from BB before the throw ect. So, in other words, have a "Plan"

2. Only concentrate on the dog. Everything else is irrelavent.

3. Focus on the dog is over when she has completed the task, and is back at the truck crated.

Those are the things that I gleaned from this very informative helpful thread.

For alone time performing O.B. training.

1.Calm demeanor
2. very quiet voice.
3.More praise. (less perfectionistic)
4.Consistency.

#1 being the one I will have to really work at. These will also dovetail with Group traing days.


Thank You all.

This mornings Marks went well. 


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And I plan to make cards to remind myself..

Gooser


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## Old School Labs (May 17, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> And I plan to make cards to remind myself..
> 
> Gooser



I too have those cards Mike, as I was given that idea from John M, who Ted gave it to. I refer to them still but not in the holding blind anymore. I do go back to them from time to time, just to remind myself to concentrate on the immediate task at hand.

Last Saturday, Lainee said they discussed Casey's entry into the water, and my cast which was correct, but would have liked her to sliver in at an angle not square it so much. I never heard a word, as I was focused on what the dog and I were doing, not comments from our training gallery, or Cherylon for that matter. (Lord knows I should be listening to her, YES MAM)

Hang in there, you have come a long way, and I know you will do just fine.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Rick_C said:


> Very true.
> 
> The pro I've worked with is very generous with his time and advice if someone asks. He is also very quick to stop giving his time and advice if the handler consistently argues with and/or ignores the advice given.


I not sure I blame him for that call. It has got to be pretty frustrating if you go to a person for advice and all they do is argue the salient points you have made!!!!plus your time spent.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> Let everything come to you. Focus on nothing in particular, but be aware of all that is around you.


Having a bit of trouble digesting this statement. If I focus on nothing in particular I don't know about that, but that is just me When I approach the line, I take my time and think what I am to do in an orderly fashion. I try to sit on the bucket a few moments and observe the lay of the land and where those ducks are to fall. This gives my dog the time to relax. Also before I run I watch a few of the better trainers/handlers perform to give me sense of where some issues/problems could occur. IMO.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Having a bit of trouble digesting this statement. If I focus on nothing in particular I don't know about that, but that is just me .


You need a little more Zen in your life, I think Phil Jackson is available now...


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## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> You need a little more Zen in your life, I think Phil Jackson is available now...


Do less. Don't do anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKIpCPS-oZc


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Having a bit of trouble digesting this statement. If I focus on nothing in particular I don't know about that, but that is just me When I approach the line, I take my time and think what I am to do in an orderly fashion. I try to sit on the bucket a few moments and observe the lay of the land and where those ducks are to fall. This gives my dog the time to relax. Also before I run I watch a few of the better trainers/handlers perform to give me sense of where some issues/problems could occur. IMO.


Visualize what it is you want to accomplish, then FOCUS solely on completing that task. When you are truly focused you will be in your own little world, tuning out all sounds and distractions!!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I not sure I blame him for that call. It has got to be pretty frustrating if you go to a person for advice and all they do is argue the salient points you have made!!!!plus your time spent.


I don't blame him at all. The people that I was referring to mostly didn't listen or argued because they didn't want to put in the work
as advised. Not everything is a quick fix.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Wade said:


> Visualize what it is you want to accomplish, then FOCUS solely on completing that task. When you are truly focused you will be in your own little world, tuning out all sounds and distractions!!


I guess I do that Wade just a different way. I see my self on the line, taking in what is before me and what I have to do and letting my dog relax and me too!!. Just a different way. I like to keep in my mind focused on the things I need to do. Focusing on nothing won't get me through!!!My mind is clear of extraneous stuff except the task at hand!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Rick_C said:


> I don't blame him at all. The people that I was referring to mostly didn't listen or argued because they didn't want to put in the work
> as advised. Not everything is a quick fix.


That is for sure there are no quick fixes Be prepared to do some hard work and consistently!!! and have patience!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Having a bit of trouble digesting this statement. If I focus on nothing in particular I don't know about that, but that is just me When I approach the line, I take my time and think what I am to do in an orderly fashion. I try to sit on the bucket a few moments and observe the lay of the land and where those ducks are to fall. This gives my dog the time to relax. Also before I run I watch a few of the better trainers/handlers perform to give me sense of where some issues/problems could occur. IMO.



If you drive and put all of your focus on the car in front of you, you will likely run into it. If you stare at the pothole in the road, you will drive into it. If you ski or snowboard and focus on the mogul in front of you, you will plow into it. 

If you focus on the flyer being shot, you will not see your dog. If you focus on your dog, you will not see the flyer. So you learn to watch with "soft eyes" and see both the dog and the flyer (and other birds), so that you know whether the dog actually saw the birds as they fell


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

mikebosmans said:


> I'm actually a little sad to see this thread petering out. I don't think some of you more experienced people understand exactly how much knowledge can be had from what has been written so far.
> 
> I know for me, I have already changed a few things in my training sessions. We come to the training line like we own it now. I am less concerned about "seeing if she'll do it" we've focused more on stretching what we do know a little further each time instead of moving up the scale of difficulty or distance by large bounds each time.



I believe you improve by focusing on small things. For example, instead of worrying about whether your dog did a test well or poorly, consider the components of performance. For example,

My dog sat quietly on the line
My dog did not head swing
My dog did not mouth the birds
My dog came back to heel after it retrieved the first bird
Etc
When you focus on the elements of performance, rather than the overall performance, you will have a better feel for what is working, and what is not
If you try to do too much, you will do nothing

As for me, I have been working for the past three years on getting my dogs to heel into position for the next bird, properly lined without much production. I think Farmer calls it "influencing the dog, without letting the dog know that you are influencing it." It is a bitch, and I still have not figured out how to do it reliably and consistently. But, that is my target.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> As for me, I have been working for the past three years on getting my dogs to heel into position for the next bird, properly lined without much production. I think Farmer calls it "influencing the dog, without letting the dog know that you are influencing it." It is a bitch, and I still have not figured out how to do it reliably and consistently. But, that is my target.


As dog is returning, line the outside edge of your dog side shoe right at the next bird.(before he gets back to line). Let him swing to where you are and come to a heel/sit. You do nothing except stick out your left or right hand. If you train dog to align his spine and gaze with where your foot is pointed you don't have to do anything but let him sit, take the bird, cue mark and send.
Some think their foot is properly aligned but is not so do a simple test. When you think you are lined up have a partner lay a long straight edge against the side of your shoe. Step back and have a look.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Breck said:


> Some think their foot is properly aligned but is not so do a simple test. When you think you are lined up have a partner lay a long straight edge against the side of your shoe. Step back and have a look.



Now you sound like my golf instructor....


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I know for a fact I can cause my upland dogs to change directions with whole body "physical influence". However, I am thinking "physical influence" at the line is more of a super refined and very subtle form of "push/pull". 

I can't believe a dog is going to line up with a shoe.....then again....what do I know?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> I can't believe a dog is going to line up with a shoe.....then again....what do I know?


Funny thing. You know when some of the smarter dogs are in tune with this when they come to heel and place their paw smack on top of you foot. They want, and need, to know exactly what that foot is doing. lol


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The issue is not simply lining the dog. Rather, the issue is lining the dog without the dog knowing that I am lining the dog. The shoe tip will not resolve that issue


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

mikebosmans said:


> I'm actually a little sad to see this thread petering out. I don't think some of you more experienced people understand exactly how much knowledge can be had from what has been written so far.
> 
> I know for me, I have already changed a few things in my training sessions. We come to the training line like we own it now. I am less concerned about "seeing if she'll do it" we've focused more on stretching what we do know a little further each time instead of moving up the scale of difficulty or distance by large bounds each time.
> 
> ...


Good Deal. It took many years on my part to finally understand what you just said above... FWIW...You can share a blind with me anytime.
Enjoy her.... They don't say long.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> The issue is not simply lining the dog. Rather, the issue is lining the dog without the dog knowing that I am lining the dog. The shoe tip will not resolve that issue


Please do tell more ,I've worked on wagon wheel 3 days this week and twice today in an attempt to learn more line manners for both of us. I have my dog foot pointing at the bumper when she comes back ,before she sits I adjust her if need be then give the sit command ,take bumper ,attempt to make any minor adjustments in her head movement ,if she locks on forward I say gooood and send.But if she has head movement and I need a little adjustment I tap my leg or push my knee a little depending on direction of adjustment,at that point anxiousness seems to start getting her and she adjusts real big trying to do the right thing.How do you get the fine tune adjustment?

Not trying to divert thread but its been a educational thread from start to finish.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

You are already align up for the next mark. I will look at the the fall and come to a point about two feet in front of me and that is where my toe or foot will be for that mark. When the dog comes in, My arm will be at about 45 degrees left of right telling dog which side. When my dog heals to my side, he or she will or should be align to me facing the mark. Hopefully their spine is aligned to me and off they go. You try and do alot of this training and let the folks who you train with tell you otherwise, if not right.

My penny worth.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I was practicing Push/pull with Maddi at training one day. Ted was watching me. I thought She was moving really well for her..
Ted told me. Looks Good,, but you need to refine the course movement, and try and make things more subtle.
It is pretty fun to watch Ted run his dogs. For a mere mortal like myself, it is very impressive to watch. His movements are very quiet, and very small. Sometimes, I swear only the dogs eyes move...

Gooser


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> If you drive and put all of your focus on the car in front of you, you will likely run into it. If you stare at the pothole in the road, you will drive into it. If you ski or snowboard and focus on the mogul in front of you, you will plow into it.
> 
> If you focus on the flyer being shot, you will not see your dog. If you focus on your dog, you will not see the flyer. So you learn to watch with "soft eyes" and see both the dog and the flyer (and other birds), so that you know whether the dog actually saw the birds as they fell


I agree. We tend to go where we are looking.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Shawn White said:


> How do you get the fine tune adjustment?



I don't know. I can tell you it's not wagon wheel drills. I can tell you it's not pointing your shoe. I have been working on it for years and still don't like the results

I can also tell you from judging dogs and handlers over the years, that not many handlers have it down either.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I don't know. I can tell you it's not wagon wheel drills. I can tell you it's not pointing your shoe. I have been working on it for years and still don't like the results
> 
> I can also tell you from judging dogs and handlers over the years, that *not many handlers have it down* either.


Boy I sure know one handler that doesn't have it down.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I don't know. I can tell you it's not wagon wheel drills. I can tell you it's not pointing your shoe. I have been working on it for years and still don't like the results
> 
> I can also tell you from judging dogs and handlers over the years, that not many handlers have it down either.



Also every dog is different in how they "look out", push pull and even go where their spine/head is pointing. My Gus tends to be herky-jerky on line, but with very subtle movements fore and aft along with a slight tap on my thigh, he can be pointed very precisely, and he will hold that line for a good long ways. My first field trial dog seemed like he was 5 degrees left every time I sent him. I was used to it and didn't notice it after a while, but anyone standing behind me was sure I was pointing him wrong, until I sent him and he went out right on line. It took some getting used to my next dog who actually ran where he was pointed.

John


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks to all of you for this thread. This last part about lining has been particularly appropriate for me as we are going through wagon wheel drills right now, and I am having a hard time getting him to stop swinging his head on me. I am thinking about taking him off the line and reheeling when he does that, and I know I need to be quicker on the draw when he does look out and get ready. Does anybody have any tips about handling this? Or is it yet another thing I just have to let him figure out through repetition?


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

RookieTrainer said:


> Thanks to all of you for this thread. This last part about lining has been particularly appropriate for me as we are going through wagon wheel drills right now, and I am having a hard time getting him to stop swinging his head on me. I am thinking about taking him off the line and reheeling when he does that, and I know I need to be quicker on the draw when he does look out and get ready. Does anybody have any tips about handling this? Or is it yet another thing I just have to let him figure out through repetition?


The first thing I would do is stop running multiple marks and start running a LOT of singles with multiple gunners in the field. Stick men work really well for this. It doesn't take long for the dog to realize that, even though there are multiple gunners, he needs to focus on the bird that was thrown because there aren't any more coming.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

to me, it's not whether I can tap, move my feet, etc. once the dog is sitting on the mat. It's about influencing the dog as it is returning and before it sits without a lot of hub bub. I have not seen many handlers who can do this consistently. I know I cannot. But I'm working on it


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Ted, I think you are speaking in 5th level thinking to many of us that are at level 2 or 3. I'm trying to picture in my mind what you're saying....I think you are talking about when a dog is returning from a mark, you are trying to influence the dog to set up for the next bird. What I don't understand is, are you trying to get a much more fine tuned adjustment than just setting up pointed at the next bird BEFORE the dog is even back at your side? I guess I'm trying to figure out what it is you're trying to influence, much less how you would do so.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Rick_C said:


> Ted, I think you are speaking in 5th level thinking to many of us that are at level 2 or 3. I'm trying to picture in my mind what you're saying....I think you are talking about when a dog is returning from a mark, you are trying to influence the dog to set up for the next bird. What I don't understand is, are you trying to get a much more fine tuned adjustment than just setting up pointed at the next bird BEFORE the dog is even back at your side? I guess I'm trying to figure out what it is you're trying to influence, much less how you would do so.


I was interested in what more you can do to perfect adjusting your dog for the next mark. I always felt if my body and my feet were pointed towards the mark that was a good start. I also make sure the dog is aligned straight to that mark. I do announce to the dog "where is your mark" and if I don't get a whole lot from him, down goes my hand for some guidence??? and I treat the mark like a mark/blind. Just my way of doing things. Oh yes I have learned to try and remember where those marks are!!!! If there is more to this please explain. Thanks really good thread!!!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK. Not having seen your handling style and mannerisms before what exactly do you do and say as a handler (A B C) from the time your dog picks up mark 1 until he's sent and on his way to mark 2?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Waiting for ferry.

What I am talking about is the way you move your feet, hands, body, use your voice, etc. to get the dog to pull into you, ffocused on the bird yyou want without making it obvious that is what you are doing.

With as many interrupted marks as we do, if you fuss too much on the line, you could easily persuade the dog into running a blind, not finding a mark.

I think it is really hard to do well. Judy Aycock is as good as I have ever seen at this


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

When I go to a trial I put a W next to certain handlers. W means watch. Yes Roy Morjon, Rex Bell, Mike Coutu, Bart Clark, Bob Willow just to name a few I watch you guys closely.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

I have been experimenting with getting fine adjustments with "bird in mouth." I have a high roller and it seems I am having better success getting fine adjustments before I take the bird. Has anyone had any luck doing this? Constant learning process and when I finally figure him out I'll be retiring him


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Dogs are more supple with bird in mouth


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Naw! don't let you kidd yourself most are "jacked up" but as more experience comes then " you just don't let them see the sweat"..
I have discussed this with many, many high stress people in the dog games, Commercial Pilots, medical Doctors, firefighters, Dentists, even Cops, kinda like the excitement that comes from going to the line. Just don't break cool and look like you know what your doing!


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Criquetpas said:


> Naw! don't let you kidd yourself most are "jacked up" but as more experience comes then " you just don't let them see the sweat"..
> I have discussed this with many, many high stress people in the dog games, Commercial Pilots, medical Doctors, firefighters, Dentists, even Cops, kinda like the excitement that comes from going to the line. Just don't break cool and look like you know what your doing!


So in your estimation getting fine adjustments with bird in mouth is not very affective? I can see your point to some degree in the sense of "they may be more supple" with bird in mouth as Ted said, but once they spit the bird I'm back to where I started? Your thoughts,


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

My question was meant for lining up for a blind not a mark, the marks are not a problem ,she comes to the line and looks for them and if she sees the station(s) she stays focused,but with a blind she is looking for something to see so she moves her head.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Shawn White said:


> My question was meant for lining up for a blind not a mark, the marks are not a problem ,she comes to the line and looks for them and if she sees the station(s) she stays focused,but with a blind she is looking for something to see so she moves her head.


So what happens with naturally retired marks?


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

jeff evans said:


> Sounds like the "Stevie Wonder" kick her off quick, don't give her the chance to do that. After 1,000 or so blinds she'll look out your hand. Danny Farmer explains this in detail in his video.


The discussion has been on fine tuning at the line,not handling in the field.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Rick_C said:


> So what happens with naturally retired marks?


Just starting to really concentrate on retired marks.
Naturally retired??


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Shawn White said:


> The discussion has been on fine tuning at the line,not handling in the field.


That's what Jeff is talking about. Ted is talking about lining up for marks. MUCH more subtle and fine tuned than just pointing the dog in the right direction so she sees the station. In the game Ted plays, there aren't stations to look at for all but the go bird a lot of the time. Apples and oranges from what you're talking about.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Shawn White said:


> Just starting to really concentrate on retired marks.
> Naturally retired??


The gunner throws the bird then retires behind natural cover, a tree, tall brush etc... so that when the dog comes back and lines up for that mark, there is nothing to look at. The dog has to know where the BIRD is, and the handler needs to be able to help the dog when necessary.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Shawn White said:


> The discussion has been on fine tuning at the line,not handling in the field.


Precicesly! You can fine line a dog to death that is not quite ready to fine line which produces head swinging and aprehension. I wasn't referring to handling in the field. If she is swinging her head you can make that worse by trying to get a fine line. I would recommend sending her quickly, and run lots of blinds. There's a difference between the "Stevie wonder" on line and checking traffic in the field on the way to the blind. Take it for what it's worth.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

jeff evans said:


> Precicesly! You can fine line a dog to death that is not quite ready to fine line which produces head swinging and aprehension. I wasn't referring to handling in the field. If she is swinging her head you can make that worse by trying to get a fine line. I would recommend sending her quickly, and run lots of blinds. There's a difference between the "Stevie wonder" on line and checking traffic in the field on the way to the blind. Take it for what it's worth.


I'm catchin on now, the reason in my mind to try for the fine lineing is because if you just kick her off then give her a quick whistle to put her online she tends to loose confidence like she is waiting on another whistle,if I get the cast then give her a-good dog-she'll start rollin again.I guess at only 2 years old the lining will come in time.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Rick_C said:


> The gunner throws the bird then retires behind natural cover, a tree, tall brush etc... so that when the dog comes back and lines up for that mark, there is nothing to look at. The dog has to know where the BIRD is, and the handler needs to be able to help the dog when necessary.


Factors and distance depending she seems to _see the picture _ and will generally tell me by her focus when she comes back and sets up for the next and the way she leaves the line if she knows where it is, even when retired natural or not.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Shawn White said:


> I'm catchin on now, the reason in my mind to try for the fine lineing is because if you just kick her off then give her a quick whistle to put her online she tends to loose confidence like she is waiting on another whistle,if I get the cast then give her a-good dog-she'll start rollin again.I guess at only 2 years old the lining will come in time.


You exactly right, don't look for precision yet, let her roll until she's out of the confidence zone. Long sight blinds or building long blinds in parts may be the answer. Take out the factors, find a featureless field and build some long pattern blinds. She know where the blinds are, so send her quick, dont fuss. After she knows these blinds and she squirts off in the wrong direction and it's a "you know, I know, we know" then you can punish but I bet you won't have to if you keep her confident.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

It's probably the way I train, but I have never had a dog that I could line up and do a good job on a mark, if the dog didn't remember the mark. On the other hand two of my dogs, Yoda and Gus, if they returned, spun around and lined themselves up, I could be 90% sure they remembered the bird and would do a very good job on the mark. Forget about thrying to select out a different bird, that never seemed to work at a trial no matter how much secondary selection we work on in training. Fortunately both of these dogs had the talent to go long twice and still check down. My point is that with my dogs, if they remembered the mark it took very little work on my part, if they didn't, no amount of lining was going to put them on that bird.

John


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

jeff evans said:


> You exactly right, don't look for precision yet, let her roll until she's out of the confidence zone. Long sight blinds or building long blinds in parts may be the answer. Take out the factors, find a featureless field and build some long pattern blinds. She know where the blinds are, so send her quick, dont fuss. After she knows these blinds and she squirts off in the wrong direction and it's a "you know, I know, we know" then you can punish but I bet you won't have to if you keep her confident.


Are we talking about blinds or marks? I was following up on Ted's post regarding lining up for a mark.

John


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> Are we talking about blinds or marks? I was following up on Ted's post regarding lining up for a mark.
> 
> John


Shawn was wanting some advice on blinds, she's head swinging before being sent.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Sorry ... now back to your regularly scheduled thread


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> It's probably the way I train, but I have never had a dog that I could line up and do a good job on a mark, if the dog didn't remember the mark. On the other hand two of my dogs, Yoda and Gus, if they returned, spun around and lined themselves up, I could be 90% sure they remembered the bird and would do a very good job on the mark. Forget about thrying to select out a different bird, that never seemed to work at a trial no matter how much secondary selection we work on in training. Fortunately both of these dogs had the talent to go long twice and still check down. My point is that with my dogs, if they remembered the mark it took very little work on my part, if they didn't, no amount of lining was going to put them on that bird.
> 
> John


I agree....

The stuff I mentioned earlier was the way I was taught years back, including the imaginary line from the down mark to the line. Will do the same procedure when I get back into it after I retire…..Training is one thing, testing is another. Training to do testing in so many words simplifies what needs to be done and be confident as a team.

Cheers...


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Hey Gooser I think I know exactly how you feel. Your dog still loves you, though. 

I'm hoping you feel better now. I'm planning on this just being a phase I'm going through...Next week will be better?


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

JTS said:


> Shawn is your dog still with the trainer.........I would venture a guess that these are questions for C.M.


Not this week ,but I go several days a week, I dont try to pick his brain to much as he spends alot of time/training with his client dogs and feel he has helped above and beyond and took her to a level that I couldnt ,and if I can gain some insight on the side that will further my trainability then I do .


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Waiting for ferry.
> 
> What I am talking about is the way you move your feet, hands, body, use your voice, etc. to get the dog to pull into you, ffocused on the bird yyou want without making it obvious that is what you are doing.
> 
> ...


What does Judy tell you Ted on how she influences the dogs in the manner in which you would like to get to? Or those who you have witnessed that you think are successful, what have they passed on to you?

Thanks for your insight!!


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