# Update on sick puppies thread



## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Detailed results from the lab just came in - PARVO!!!!

What?!?!?!? Parvo? We had THREE negative Parvo tests!!! 

I think that it was Nancy that said something about the New Parvo strain. Well, Nancy, unfortunately you were right.  

I am going to try to tell you some of the details of my conversation with the vet. Just remember it was about a 20 minute conversation, and he uses terminology I don't always understand. So, if I say something that doesn't sound quite right, just keep that in mind. 

Our vet said that he will be talking with the lab to look at the testing he used and something about this being a sub-category of the original two strains. He said that one negative test would not be surprising because it only shows up as positive during shedding, but that he is very surprised that he got three negatives. But the flourescent antibodies indicated parvo. He said that he feels like it is the sub-category strain because of the negative tests, the severity of the sympotms, and the timing of the onset of symptoms. It was about a 5 day span of onset. He also talked about that it was exact right "wrong" time because of the passive immunity from their mom starting to wear off at that age. We got cut a little short on the phone, but we are supposed to talk again later today.

So, I guess it is good news that we have an answer. That is somewhat comforting. But on the flip side, it is very unsettling to know that we have had parvo at the kennel. 

I had talked about the things we had done to sanitize since this happened in the original thread. Now that we have an answer, does anyone have any other suggestions on cleaning, and getting rid of this? I have heard that parvo can live for WEEKS in the grass or other surfaces. What the heck do we do now?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I'm sorry to have been right because it just sounded too much like Parvo but I'm sure it wouldn't have been handled any differently by your vet. It scares me because I'm not even sure the vaccines are covering the new strain. I notice you board-I would definately not put puppies in that building for a long time. Didn't your vet say something about sealing the cement after treating. I'm sorry for you that you are going through all of this. Very scary.


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

did you guys have any survivors??? 

So sorry to hear it was Parvo but happy that you finally figured out what it was..


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Canine Parvovirus Type 2

http://www.avma.org/animal_health/canine_parvovirus_faq.asp


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## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

I had a pup that got parvo once just wandering how old your pups are and very sorry.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Chasidy-we had one that had gone to it's new home on Sunday before the first puppy got sick on Thursday. That puppy is fine. Three of the remaining nine survived and are back at the kennel. The first back seemed to be the least symtomatic of all. It's a bundle of energy. The other two are making a quick recovery.

25-ott-6 They were 7 weeks old at the onset. Will be nine weeks tomorrow.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Like nancy said, I wouldn't put puppies back there for a long time. Bleach, bleach, bleach. Bomb the place with full strength before sealing anything. Let it sit on there for awhile before rinsing the heck out of it. 

I see you had/have a litter due yesterday. I'd be whelping that litter someplace else, away from the boarding dogs. Away from any dogs that come into contact with boarding or outside dogs. Anyone who comes in has to take off their shoes, wash their hands, etc. 

I'm sure you are, but I'd be paranoid as heck. Sorry this happened to you.


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## KPL (Oct 13, 2008)

So, if I remember correctly, the pups were vaccinated at 6 weeks old, and they started getting sick within a couple of days. I'm trying to understand - the vaccination wouldn't have taken effect yet, correct? Or was it that the type of vaccination used didn't cover this strain of parvo? Or both?

I know some people vaccinate for parvo only at 5 weeks. If this had been done, could this have been prevented? Or, again, do we need to be sure to vaccinate against the Type 2 parvo?

Just trying to learn, as I've got puppies due in two weeks. Thank you all for considering these questions.

I am so sorry about this tragedy! Breaks my heart! 

Kerry


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> Like nancy said, I wouldn't put puppies back there for a long time. Bleach, bleach, bleach. Bomb the place with full strength before sealing anything. Let it sit on there for awhile before rinsing the heck out of it.
> 
> I see you had/have a litter due yesterday. I'd be whelping that litter someplace else, away from the boarding dogs. Away from any dogs that come into contact with boarding or outside dogs. Anyone who comes in has to take off their shoes, wash their hands, etc.
> 
> I'm sure you are, but I'd be paranoid as heck. Sorry this happened to you.


That litter was born Sunday night - at my parent's house. We had taken the mom there several days before. We don't want to take any chances, so the further away we got her, the better.

We've been on the phone with several folks this afternoon trying to figure out the best action to take at this point. Hard to explain, but the area where the affected pups were is on a different side of our shop from our other pens and the kennel building. We sprayed the entire area - grass, fences, posts, concrete, brick... EVERYTHING - with 20 gallons of water mixed with 190 ounces of clorox. We did go ahead and clorox the kennel building and adjacent pen with clorox as well. We have got several suggestions from folks that we trust on the things we need to do, and will sort of regroup tonight and get a plan together to do all those things. Including using an additional disinfectant, giving all of our dogs a booster, cloroxing AGAIN - and a list of sevearl other other things. We don't have any plans for another litter until fall, so we can breathe easy on that one for a little while.

Paranoid doesn't even come close to covering the feeling I have......


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

KPL said:


> So, if I remember correctly, the pups were vaccinated at 6 weeks old, and they started getting sick within a couple of days. I'm trying to understand - the vaccination wouldn't have taken effect yet, correct? Or was it that the type of vaccination used didn't cover this strain of parvo? Or both?
> 
> I know some people vaccinate for parvo only at 5 weeks. If this had been done, could this have been prevented? Or, again, do we need to be sure to vaccinate against the Type 2 parvo?
> 
> ...


The pups started getting sick 9 days after their vaccinations. We know that it was introduced to the environment between Sunday and Friday, becuase of a pup that went home early and never had any symptoms.

It has been suggested to us that we give a Neopar vaccination to all new litters between 4 and 5 weeks of age from now on. I'm not sure if this is parvo only. From what I have understood, there is no specific vaccine for this Type 2c parvovirus.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

hughest said:


> Paranoid doesn't even come close to covering the feeling I have......


I bet.............. I know a breeder in Wisconsin that lost 2 litters to parvo at one time. She's an older gal. Wound up on major anti-depressants. You guys are doing the best you can, and you did everything you could to save those pups. Seems like you are putting it into perspective, educating yourselves, and going forward with an action plan. That's the best you can do at this point.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2011)

I am so sorry you had to go through this.  The fact that you are willing to share all this info with us during this rough time so we can learn from it is very admirable. Thank you.

Melanie


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Thank you Melanie. I really appreciate that statement. I have sort of been waiting on someone to start throwing daggers at us, and probably would have gotten myself banned for my scathing response and comments. My nerves have been on edge now for two weeks. There is the fear that folks will think we are not taking care of our dogs, or that we have unclean conditions. But we were just so desperate at the time, we just wanted help from anywhere we could get it. And it is very comforting to get encouragement from folks who understand how emtionally trying this has been to us.

I can't say thank you enough to all the folks that have offered advice and took time to send PM's and call us.


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## sterregold (May 27, 2005)

How terrible, and scary in the future too. I would be cleaning the entire kennel and any area where you have been after being in contact with the sick pups with something even stronger than bleach. Parvo can be pretty resistant to standard cleaners. Try something like Vikron S, Parvosol, or Trifectant. You can usually get them at places that carry animal health supplies, like TSC.


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

Thanks so much for the updates. We have puppies due in a few weeks and all your information has been so helpful in the preventative measures we will now be taking.

Lesa C


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

sterregold said:


> How terrible, and scary in the future too. I would be cleaning the entire kennel and any area where you have been after being in contact with the sick pups with something even stronger than bleach. Parvo can be pretty resistant to standard cleaners. Try something like Vikron S, Parvosol, or Trifectant. You can usually get them at places that carry animal health supplies, like TSC.


Good info - Thanks. Raccol-D has been suggested to us also, so I will be doing some research to figure out what will be best to use.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

hughest said:


> The pups started getting sick 9 days after their vaccinations. We know that it was introduced to the environment between Sunday and Friday, becuase of a pup that went home early and never had any symptoms.
> 
> It has been suggested to us that we give a Neopar vaccination to all new litters between 4 and 5 weeks of age from now on. I'm not sure if this is parvo only. From what I have understood, there is no specific vaccine for this Type 2c parvovirus.


Yes, NEO-PAR is for parvo only. They also make a NEO-VAC which is DA2 (distemper and adenovirus 2) only. I usually give the neo-par at 5-6 weeks, and wait for the combo til 8 weeks, this time I found out about the Neo Vac, so seperated them a week apart and did each. I think they're both good products. 
A lot of the commercial breeders in the midwest swear by the neo-par. They have had parvo on the property,and vaccinate their whole litters and adult dogs w/ it and swear they havent had parvo since. www.atozpetsupply.com
( I think thats it... talk to "Chris" there and he is sort of the vet expert on it and can advise a schedule reccomended by the manuafacturer)
Good luck-Im so sorry thats what it is but so glad you found out!


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Ok, so I have a friend who just went through this, had two litters, only one got it, and is expecting a couple of litters (if they take) this summer.
I took the first puppy to the vet as she was out of town, very non-typical parvo signs at the beginning.
She learned a lot, and it was awful. She has changed her vaccine protocol based on the vets who saved the remaining puppies advice, and also changed her protocol with the females she intends on breeding. Also is giving the singel parvo and other one too-might be the same place-
They did some really neat things to protect the other litter, and I think everyone learned way more than they wanted to-
Also, go back and see what vaccine you used, a couple are useless.

I will be happy to get you guys in touch with each other, just email me with your email address- [email protected].

The thing is, it is on your property, and can live on the property for a while. Most healthy dogs can handle it, puppies can't. 

The same vet who dealt with her puppies has a very strict puppy shot protocol, but interestingly enough is conservative about older dog shots which makes me happy.
He is a good 40 minutes away though

It is not the end of the world, it is just another challenge! take in all the advice you can and see what works for you!


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

If you can stand it , get muriatic acid from a pool store. I can't imagine any type of anything living on the concrete thru a bath of that .


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## JackCreek (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm so sorry to read about your run in with parvo. It is an awful disease and I'm sorry that I don't have an accurate and knowledgeable solution to ridding your property of this virus. I have read that it is very, very difficult to eradicate on non-porous surfaces such as grass. 

As stated by others, thank you for bringing the topic up and sharing information. We all become better stewards of our animals when we help one another.

I did some research and found an article, published in 2008, that sheds some light on the various parvo variants:

http://www.sinervia.com/library_files/1169685956_Canine_parvovirus_-_protection_against_type_2c.pdf


Good luck with your upcoming litter and prayers with you as you navigate through this ordeal.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Neopar is what I've been using for ~7 yrs now due to the high incidence of parvo in my area. According to one of my vets, ever since the major breeding kennels in his area have used it, they've not had parvo again. I use it at 5 wks and follow w/ Progard 5 at 7wks. Both seem to be highly protective against the 2c strain. http://www.neotechvaccines.com/label.htm

Since I'm not nearly as worried about distemper (it's out there but not as common unless you work w/ the shelters), I prefer to wait a full 2 wks (label indicates 14-21 days between doses) to do the Progard 5 (which has a label interval of 3-4 wks, so that means wait 3-4 more wks before ANY further vaccines). Why? Because when you vaccinate, you are stimulating that immune system greatly. It takes another 5-10 days for the immune system to settle back down to normal. If you vaccinate too early, you may get NO response from the next vaccine. I've got a great dvd here from one of the AKC breeder symposiums that explains all of this. So, personally I'd not be giving those vaccs a week apart Karen.... I know what Neopar says on their website schedule, but in this case, I'd not do that, esp not w/ a puppy.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Except that the combo shots are all together ,so I m not worried about doing a parvo one week and a distemper the next. Usually they get it all at once in one needle!


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

You really should give all the vaccines at once or spread out with at least 2 weeks in between. Any less time between the vaccines, blunts the immune response to both vaccines to the point you may not get coverage.


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

Just for everyone's information. Spraying Clorox on grass and dirt is a complete waste of time. Clorox kills germs by oxidation and it is quickly degraded by organic debris. The first step in disinfecting a surface with bleach is to clean it thoroughly to removed any dirt or debris. It is the preferred disinfectant for Parvovirus as it is very resistant to quats and phenolic products.


Vaccines should split 3 weeks apart. There are no strains that are not prevented by vaccines currently available. No matter how you vaccinate there can be windows between having enough maternal immunity and acquired immunity for the pups to be protected.

If you have pups with vomiting, diarrhea, and depression it is Parvo until proven otherwise false negative tests do not rule it out. If it walks like a duck, it is a duck, When treating parvo pups check the white count often and the albumen daily!!! Hetastarch is often needed daily to save them.


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## KPL (Oct 13, 2008)

Dr. Connolly,

Thank you for sharing your invaluable knowledge and expertise! It is greatly appreciated!

If you don't mind, I am wondering what you think about giving the Neopar (parvo only) vaccine at 5 weeks?

Also, at what age do you recommend giving the first puppy vacc.?

Thank you for your opinion and/or advice.

Kerry


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## Tori (Mar 6, 2010)

At WSU we came up with a schedule though it is not as practical by most peoples wallets or availability. The ideal schedule for the immune system to have the best advantage is fairly spaced out. It would be neopar at 5 weeks, first combo at 7 weeks, second combo at 10 weeks and third combo at 13 weeks. For my situation, we gave rabies/bordatella at 16 weeks, and did the initial lepto series at 19 and 21.5 weeks. Idealy the lepto should be repeated every 3-6 months, the vets were seeing most dogs lost immunity beyond 6 months. The annual "booster" would not be adequate in this case and the whole two shot initial series should be repeated. Bordatella is recommended to be repeated ever 6 months if the dog travels a lot. These are the shots given in this area (WA mostly) so not sure how applicable it is for other areas of the US. 

I give shots myself though, so the only vet visit is for the rabies. I couldn't imagine going to my vet 3-5 times for puppy shots, its a $45 "appointment" fee at minimum, plus about $20-30 per shot. No thank you. 

One shot a year, with everything in it, can work but is usually not as effective and in some cases overloads the dogs immune system causing problems when actual diseases are encountered or further vaccines are given later on.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Billie said:


> Except that the combo shots are all together ,so I m not worried about doing a parvo one week and a distemper the next. Usually they get it all at once in one needle!


But Karen, it doesn't work THAT way for the immune system. It doesn't CARE that you are assaulting it w/ anything different, though it's just 1 wk later. I'm telling you..... 5 wks for Neopar, 7 wks for the next, regardless of what you choose and I choose Progard 5. I wish I could send you this dvd I have (now in my hands once again). How would YOU feel if you got exposed to several different bugs 1 wk apart??? Do you think your immune system could respond any better than getting it all together?


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't routinely give vaccines at 5 weeks. In a case where you are going to have exposures it might be advisable. On my own personal dogs I give RecombiteK DHP-CPV at 7 weeks and boost at 10-13 and 16 weeks. If I had an exposure like this incident the next litter I might want to titer the pups to calculate when they would be susceptible to vaccination. In my practice I recommend 8 12 and 16 weeks and that has been very effective, knock on wood! It is very important that all dogs get their last parvo at 16 weeks. That way you are assured you will get a vaccine response.. In a study at my clinic we found that only 92% of the pups were protected when vaccinated at 12 weeks! I boost one year later and then every 3 years. I personally believe we have evidence that once a dog responds to Parvo they are protected for life.

All this being said let me be perfectly clear. There can always be time when maternal immunity has gotten too low to protect a puppy and they haven't responded to vaccination. This is a window of susceptibility. Preventing exposure is an important part of the protocol.


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

J Connolly said:


> I don't routinely give vaccines at 5 weeks. In a case where you are going to have exposures it might be advisable. On my own personal dogs I give RecombiteK DHP-CPV at 7 weeks and boost at 10-13 and 16 weeks. If I had an exposure like this incident the next litter I might want to titer the pups to calculate when they would be susceptible to vaccination. In my practice I recommend 8 12 and 16 weeks and that has been very effective, knock on wood! It is very important that all dogs get their last parvo at 16 weeks. That way you are assured you will get a vaccine response.. In a study at my clinic we found that only 92% of the pups were protected when vaccinated at 12 weeks! I boost one year later and then every 3 years. I personally believe we have evidence that once a dog responds to Parvo they are protected for life.
> 
> All this being said let me be perfectly clear. There can always be time when maternal immunity has gotten too low to protect a puppy and they haven't responded to vaccination. This is a window of susceptibility. Preventing exposure is an important part of the protocol.


Dr. Connolly - you repeated what my vet told me yesterday, almost word for word about the vaccination procedures. I went in and we talked for about 45 minutes about everything that has happened in the last two weeks. He is pretty opposed to the 5 week shot. 

He did have a different opinion about clorox on grass - he said that if the virus is on the grass, and you spray it, that it will kill the virus at that exact location, but that it would not "sterilize" the area, or kill any of the virus in the surrounding areas. Your thoughts on this?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

hughest said:


> Dr. Connolly - you repeated what my vet told me yesterday, almost word for word about the vaccination procedures. I went in and we talked for about 45 minutes about everything that has happened in the last two weeks. He is pretty opposed to the 5 week shot.


Tracy, there are very FEW vets who even know about Neopar's existance still because face it, it was developed for the commercial breeders (read puppy mills) in the midwest. I'd not be too hasty if I were in your shoes to dismiss it, esp now that your property is contaminated. 

I had a friend who brought home parvo (from a vet clinic) ~8 yrs ago to *3* litters of labs. The youngest litter was 3 wks old. The older 2 were 7 wks and getting their CERFs done at that clinic and the ACVO was unaware at the time that the general vet had a parvo case there. Her pups hadn't yet been vacc'd, and all 28 puppies got sick, several died. MOst that lived had some physical abnormalities (tiny ears, etc due to growth being disrupted apparently). I'm not sure what circumstances were behind the other 2 (field) kennels who got parvo in the same area w/in a year or so, but ever since they started w/ the Neopar program at 5 wks followed by Progard 5 at 7 wks, there have been no issues. Since I'm on some work sites w/ strays hanging around, I won't chance it either. I'd urge you to take a good look at it... Anyhow, I now have 2 GOOD parvo vax in my puppies (vaccs known to override that maternal effect and get to work) before I take my litter to CERF or well checks. I use 2 vets and both totally agree w/ what I'm doing and the one actually helped put the current recommendation together.

There used to be a challenge study on the net showing that Progard 5 vacc'd pups (6, 9, 12 wks) were fully immune to parvo at 12 wks when exposed. I think it really depends on the vaccine used... not all can stand up to the challenge.


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Thanks Windycanyon. I will definitely do some reading on all this in the next 3 or 4 weeks. I've got a little time to do some research and talking with my vet to make a decision. The new litter that has been mentioned a couple of times in this conversation is still at my parents' house, so I can just breathe for a couple of weeks and get all of my thoughts together. I defintely need a little down time after this nightmare of a rollercoaster.


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

We did our study with Intervet and Phizer vaccines. We did not convert all puppies at 12 weeks.I have no clinical studies comparing Neopar with other high titer low passage vaccines so I can't say whether it is more effective than other vaccines. I have read reports, anecdotal, that their have been deaths in puppies vaccinated at 5 weeks with Neopar. Understand I have no evidence that these are true. 

No one can tell you absolutely that bleach won't kill Parvo on grass, but it is organic material and I wouldn't count on it and it won't kill it in the dirt. I think I would rely more on UV exposure to kill it and mow the grass close and keep it dry.More than anything, don't board or kennel any dogs less than 19 weeks without a proven vaccination after 16 weeks, thereby preventing a dog coming into your facility shedding the virus.To insure that you don't repeat this incident I wouldn't raise a litter on these grounds for 6 months.

I know this is a devastating event and one we all fear. I hope you never have to go through it again.

If anyone will listen vaccinate out to 16 weeks and limit exposure.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Just to be clear, no one is suggesting just giving Neopar at 5 wks and leaving it at that, ie, nothing else in the future. I oftentimes use a Neopar later on to "top things off" after the combos. I'm not too worried about giving more than *3 combo/Progard 5* vacs because distemper should well be covered by 3, but the only real question is on parvo (though as I said before, there were challenge studies published on Progard 5 showing it to have 100% coverage w/ the 12 wk shot). And if any of the pups were weak at vaccination time, it is VERY possible that the vaccine can fail. It's better to wait a few days if a puppy even seems a bit lethargic but it's why I target the front end of the label window, just to buy myself a little time in case a pup gets diarrhea, etc..


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

My puppy received her first combo shot at 7 weeks, given by the breeder. Her second at 10 weeks and 5 days by my vet. The third at 13 weeks and 5 days also given by my vet. So should she receive another combo shot at 16 weeks when I take her for the rabies shot? 

Terri


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Absolutely, I would do that.....and another parvo strait at 5mos.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2011)

Parvo is bad here my vet gives a parvo shot every three weeks until they are 21 weeks old


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

hughest said:


> I have sort of been waiting on someone to start throwing daggers at us, and probably would have gotten myself banned for my scathing response and comments. My nerves have been on edge now for two weeks. There is the fear that folks will think we are not taking care of our dogs, or that we have unclean conditions. But we were just so desperate at the time, we just wanted help from anywhere we could get it. And it is very comforting to get encouragement from folks who understand how emtionally trying this has been to us.
> 
> I can't say thank you enough to all the folks that have offered advice and took time to send PM's and call us.


I don't think anyone would be small-minded enough to blame you guys for the devastation of parvo! Judging from people I know that have had affected litters, it's definitely not confined to unclean conditions or shoddy pup raising. Sadly, the people i know who I would call lacking in basic animal husbandry skills are not the ones that have heartbreaking expensive things happen to their litters. Fortunately parvo isn't prevalent here, but the few cases I know of all happened to people that take very good care of their dogs and pups.

My 2-wk. old Chesapeake pups will be getting the parvo vaccination. This has been a good, educational thread for anyone that breeds. Thanks to all that contributed.


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