# Labs and shock collars



## Hank (May 10, 2009)

I went to an obedience seminar just for the heck of it, and I was informed that the only reason that shock collars work so well in the retrieving game is because Labradors seem to gladly take shock corrections. That they don't seem to resent them the way other dogs can. There could be something to this? It could explain the rise of the Labrador as the top competitor in field trials at about the same time that the e-collar was being developed. Anyone care to comment or disagree?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I disagree..... I think that the way in which collars are used, better education available to amature (and pro!) trainers, and better overall use of the collar is what makes a retriever (whatever breed) more able to 'take' collar pressure...

As it relates to labs, I think it has more to do with their mentality of desiring to work ..if that makes sense.....(and from a very general viewpoint)....I have heard more than once that labs seem to thrive in pressure situations... (not over doing it, of course)

Juli


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

why do you use the term shock collar in the first part of your post, but use e collar on the other part of your post....Are you trying to stir the pot or do you not know that the majority of responsible dog trainers never refer to them as shock collars


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## Hank (May 10, 2009)

Bon Mallari:

Of course I'm trying to stir the pot. This is a forum, right? My personal view is that e-collars work (when properly used) and that the force fetch is absolutely essential to getting a reliable retrieve. Of course I've really only worked with a Lab though. What I want to tell the obedience trainers who make these remarks about shock collars is that in the obedience arena dogs are never really required to confront situations that require effort the way field dogs do. They may have a point about Labs though when I read people in here remarking that Labs thrive on pressure. To me saying that Labs thrive on pressure is about the same as saying that they don't resent e-corrections. I don't want to fall into the trap of believing something that sounds good in principle but in real experience doesn't hold up. I've been there and done that enough.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Hank - Check the records - Labs were winning a high percentage of field events before the e-collar . The breed didn't "rise " , its always been winning .


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I would think you might want to introduce yourself before you try to get a discussion going. As far as Northern Illinois covers a large region and areas outside of Chicago used to be considered downstate


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Hank said:


> I went to an obedience seminar just for the heck of it, and I was informed that the only reason that shock collars work so well in the retrieving game is because Labradors seem to gladly take shock corrections. That they don't seem to resent them the way other dogs can. There could be something to this?


Had this person been drinking prior to making this statement?

Evan


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> Had this person been drinking prior to making this statement?
> 
> Evan


Naaaa Evan, I bet it was more like someone who knew nothing about ecollars, advanced retriever work or pressure.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

When I was little people asked why I was so well behaved. My dad told them that I "thrived" on beatings.

Ignorance is bliss regards,


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> why do you use the term shock collar in the first part of your post, but use e collar on the other part of your post....Are you trying to stir the pot or do you not know that the majority of responsible dog trainers never refer to them as shock collars


I don't think he got your point, Bon....

kg


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Leddyman said:


> When I was little people asked why I was so well behaved. My dad told them that I "thrived" on beatings.
> 
> Ignorance is bliss regards,


I think you found yourself a new signature line.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Someday people will realize that e-collars are just another tool for correction and frankly not the harshest tool available. Ignorance is much harsher....

/paul


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Someday people will realize that e-collars are just another tool for correction and frankly not the harshest tool available. Ignorance is much harsher....
> 
> /paul


Rat shot, whips, sling shots and other niceties were the tools of the trade before the advent of the e-collar. In concert, retriever training has also evolved into something totally different than folks used twenty years ago. Additionally, breeding has improved. All of this has combined to improve the performance of the Labrador, and other retrieving breeds. The collar is only a part of the package and in the grand scheme of things, a minor part of the package.


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## Hank (May 10, 2009)

K G said:


> I don't think he got your point, Bon....
> 
> kg


I got the point. I hope none of us think that what a thing is called changes anything. Here is the point I am trying to get to: Many obedience and agility trainers have strong opinions in favor of totally positive methods which in my (admittedly limited) experience is totally wrongheaded for retriever training. I also acknowledge though that "totally positive" may be perfect for those other dog games. I figure that if there were better approaches in those arenas the competitive aspect of those games would have already revealed that.

There *are* a few serious questions on my mind. The major one being why isn't the Chesapeake more popular than it is? Is there anyone out there who has anything to say how e-collars work with other breeds? Is it trickier to try to train the other retriever breeds with an e-collar (or is it some other consideration that makes the Lab so popular)? I know that among many pro trainers there is an extreme bias in favor of not just Labs but black Labs. Is it justified? Why, exactly? Are there drills or techniques to be developed that would be particular to the other retriever breeds that could make them more competitive with collar conditioned Labs trained with "indirect pressure"?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Hank said:


> I got the point. I hope none of us think that what a thing is called changes anything.


Ahh....now there is a degree of naivete' I haven't seen in awhile...;-)

To wit...do the names "National Socialist German Workers' Party," "Albert DeSalvo," or "Ted Kaczynski" mean anything to you? No? Those names might sound quite harmless to the common, everyday person simply going about their business. 

Well, their other names are "Nazi," "Boston Strangler," and "The Unabomber." I'm guessing you've heard of those....most everybody else on the planet has too....

What you call something DOES indeed make a difference. 

I'm going to suggest that you _not_ come waltzing in here, newbie that you are, and tell the populace of this community HOW to conduct it's business. Had you cared to search ANY of the many topics you wish to know about instead of wanting to be spoonfed the answers, you'd know that using the word "shock" in a title line just isn't something we want to do here. If you don't respect that, you probably aren't going to find a lot of cooperation amongst the faithful.

I notice, though, you haven't called it a "shock" collar since your first post....prolly part of your carefully thought out strategy, huh.....

kg


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## rpm 49 (Apr 29, 2009)

my wife's currently collar conditioning her laso apso and pomeranian and thier doing much better than i expected. she always wanted to before but the collars were so bulky, we just got a new tt thier so much smaller and lighter now.


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

Many Sheep Dog Trial people use them on Border Collies and it works fine on those too.

There are some competitive obedience people who use them as well. However not nearly as many that are positive only methods.

They've been used on Hounds for a long time too.

Do Labs "like" the e-collar? No more than any other dog. However, they seem to have a higher pain threshhold than many other breeds (physically speaking -ever notice how Labs can run into ojbects and not even care?) and are more forgiving with high desire to please than many other breeds..


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> why do you use the term shock collar in the first part of your post, but use e collar on the other part of your post....Are you trying to stir the pot or do you not know that the majority of responsible dog trainers never refer to them as shock collars


I referr to mine as his hearing Aids


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Maybe rather than "carefully thought out strategy", he just learned something


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> It could explain the rise of the Labrador as the top competitor in field trials at about the same time that the e-collar was being developed.


So which breed was the top breed in field trials before the collar? I think it was a Lab in the retriever trials

My guess is the OP is recent pot stirrer with a new screen name and new sex.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I have been around several "positive only" trainers. Although I will admit I am not a canine, I cannot imagine that a canine interprets cheeking, scruffing, bridging, and "bumping" to be "positive."


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

I train my almost 1 year old GSP with ecollar and I can't wait for her first hunt cause she is a very natural pointer and doing well with training. 

I think most gundogs are being trained with ecollars


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

limiman12 said:


> I referr to mine as his hearing Aids


That's a good one! I wonder if the "antis" would buy that one?


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Hank said:


> I went to an obedience seminar just for the heck of it, and I was informed that the only reason that shock collars work so well in the retrieving game is because Labradors seem to gladly take shock corrections. That they don't seem to resent them the way other dogs can. There could be something to this? It could explain the rise of the Labrador as the top competitor in field trials at about the same time that the e-collar was being developed. Anyone care to comment or disagree?


the fact that you think an obedience trainer is automatically an expert on field/retriever training speaks volumes.

any retriever trainer can train OB, but not any OB trainer can train retriever.

associative mathematics properties dont apply here regards.....


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> I referr to mine as his hearing Aids


I call it a hearing aid also, and I've also refered to it as an invisible leash once. (That one did work)



Lance-CO said:


> I train my almost 1 year old GSP with ecollar and I can't wait for her first hunt cause she is a very natural pointer and doing well with training.
> 
> I think most gundogs are being trained with ecollars


My dad has trained a GSP, and 2 ESS with an e-collar with great success. He has only one collar and 2 dogs and when he pulls the collar out, they push each other out of the way trying to get the collar on them.


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## Jersey (Apr 8, 2009)

Fowl Play WA said:


> I call it a hearing aid also, and I've also refered to it as an invisible leash once. (That one did work)
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to stray off subject, but I was once called out while we were training @ our local public park with a leash law by a lady with greyhounds. I showed her my dog's(Labrador) "invisible leash" and she flipped out and called 911 cause I was violating the law and I pissed her off with the collar! Luckily our local animal control officer and I are friends and he told her to mind her own business. They all disbursed and we continued on running blinds.;-)


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## Dale (Dec 21, 2003)

It's not a shock collar it's an electronic training collar. From my experience I think it works jsut as well on all breeds when used properly.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Hank said:


> There *are* a few serious questions on my mind. The major one being why isn't the Chesapeake more popular than it is? Is there anyone out there who has anything to say how e-collars work with other breeds? Is it trickier to try to train the other retriever breeds with an e-collar (or is it some other consideration that makes the Lab so popular)? I know that among many pro trainers there is an extreme bias in favor of not just Labs but black Labs. Is it justified? Why, exactly? Are there drills or techniques to be developed that would be particular to the other retriever breeds that could make them more competitive with collar conditioned Labs trained with "indirect pressure"?


I believe it boils done to tractability and attitude. Labs don't seem to have some of the hang ups that some other breeds do. But, I believe an electric collar used correctly can be a tool used with any retrieving breed. RETRIEVERS are breed to want to please their owners/trainers. They are breed to work WITH us as a team. Retrievers are breed to THINK, where as many of the other hunting breeds rely more on instincts than training. That is why we are continuously training and working our dogs to make them better. No insult to any other hunting dog groups. Each breed has it's own idiosyncrasies, the Lab's seems to be wanting to PLEASE. This makes them popular and numerous, anytime you have a breed that IS numerous, naturally you are going to see more of those in events. I have trained Goldens, Labs, and Chessies. I haven't had much trouble with any particular breed, but I do my research so that I know the quirks of the breed I am going to train and I read the dog and adjust. I do not believe that Labs take to electrical shock BETTER than any other breed, they just seem to bounce back from it better. IMO


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I would suggest Hank go to http://www.working-retriever.com go to the Library for Retriever Records that can answer many of the questions asked. Do your homework or I can do tutoring with an hourly charge.


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## Jay Brown (Sep 14, 2009)

I do not post here regularly, but I do read the posts from all of ya'll. Your suggestions on training, health, & scores of other topics are appreciated. This site is a wealth of information for all and am grateful to Chris for making this available.
I do not know "Hank" that started this thread, but I do recoginze some of you regulars who responded. Please take my comments as a suggestion and not as someone trying to start a fire.

The "shock collar, e- collar, or "collar" are all terms I have heard pro's, am's and gun dog owners use referring to the same tool for over 30 years. Only recently ( Last 5 to 8 years ) have some of the trialers and pro's started to be politically correct in what term they use.
KG said what you call something makes a difference, that is true to a certain extent. Dale also said that it is not a shock collar but a electronic caller. I am fully aware of the forces against us, (Retrievers folks), and we should put our best foot forward as far as the general public is concerned. I don't know if "Hank" is a troll or not, but If this was an individual that was sincerely looking for anwsers, Maybe some tact would be in order here. (In case this person just needed some coaching in manners.)
I am the most politicaly incorrect person there is, and understand the consequences of being so. But a waste mangement tech is still a garbage man, and both of them stink. Whether you don't want to use the word "Shock Collar" or not is not the issue. First, it does shock the dog, although this term can bring up harmful images to the uneducated, that is the truth. It is a tool, not an end all, do all fix, for a poor trainer. 
I just wanted to offer a view from a non competitor who listens to all of you folks and wants you to continue to help us less knowlegeable. 
I think it not so much what you call something as much as it is how you say something that is important. And it is damn near impossible to hear tone, inflection, or attitude in typed words. I am guilty of misinterpreting posts myself. Let's be a little more tolerent ou there.

Said my piece, hope I did not offend anyone. JB


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

As i said to Hank the same goes to Sportnclays if you want us to value your posts you should tell about yourself.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

While I appreciate your effort, Richard, that's not likely to happen....

kg


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Sportnclays did send a pm and has a long history as a dog breeder.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> My guess is the OP is recent pot stirrer with a new screen name and new sex.


Not this time


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> Sportnclays did send a pm and has a long history as a dog breeder.


That's all well and good, Richard.

The fact remains that the term "shock" collar doesn't need to be in the headline. Period. This "community" has made that clear in the past. No inflection, no accent, no tone...

kg


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## Jay Brown (Sep 14, 2009)

KG, I can certainly understand why you might not want it(the word shock) in the Title, but as you pointed out "Hank" was probably a newbie here. Maybe he did not know, maybe he did and was a troll. I said you can not hear tone or inflection ,or attitude in typed words. All I was trying to point out that a little common courteousy does not cost a dime. 
I interpret your posts as being a little defensive. 
Am I wrong ? If so, my sincerest apologies. But how you say something can be misunderstood. I just suggested a more friendly tone when responding.

Why would you say that I would not respond to the request for my info ? If you have my info, how does that affect my suggestion of being polite ? Not trying to fan any fires here, I just wanted to let you know sometimes some of you come off a little defensive. 
Jay Brown


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

sportnclays said:


> KG, I can certainly understand why you might not want it(the word shock) in the Title, but as you pointed out "Hank" was probably a newbie here. Maybe he did not know, maybe he did and was a troll. I said you can not hear tone or inflection ,or attitude in typed words. All I was trying to point out that a little common courteousy does not cost a dime.


You are correct, Jay...it doesn't. Neither does leaving the attitude at home which the OP chose not to do, newbie or not.



> I interpret your posts as being a little defensive.
> Am I wrong ? If so, my sincerest apologies. But how you say something can be misunderstood. I just suggested a more friendly tone when responding.


Of this site? You bet. Of this sport? Ditto. 

Of your post? Not at all. It's okay to disagree with your point of view, isn't it?



> Why would you say that I would not respond to the request for my info ? If you have my info, how does that affect my suggestion of being polite ? Not trying to fan any fires here, I just wanted to let you know sometimes some of you come off a little defensive.


I said it was not likely to happen for either you or Hank. So far, it hasn't. I took no offense at your suggestion...I did feel compelled, however, to comment on the adjective used to describe the e-collar that you seem to be able to pass off. That's okay...I just disagree. I hope I've adequately explained what you interpreted as a "defensive" posture.

kg


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## Jay Brown (Sep 14, 2009)

Thanks KG for the reply, 
I am too old, I guess, to read without trying to impart attitude/tone to a post . Most of the time I am correct, but then Sometimes I get it all wrong. I get a little defensive myself from time to time. Particularly with bunnie huggers or out and out idiots that don't like what I am doing even though it is legal and ethical.
I don't get my dander up when someone says shock collar. If you do, thats OK with me, but I am around a lot more hunters than I am trainers, and they don't take offense either. Not good or bad, just different. Thanks again for your explanation. JB


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Hank said:


> Of course I'm trying to stir the pot. This is a forum, right? .


Sure its a forum, but no need to purposely stir a pot. Most of the time just have a difference of opinion and the pot is stirred.


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## drakedogwaterfowl (Mar 27, 2009)

Fowl Play WA said:


> I call it a hearing aid also, and I've also refered to it as an invisible leash once. (That one did work)
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to stray off subject, but I was once called out while we were training @ our local public park with a leash law by a lady with greyhounds. I showed her my dog's(Labrador) "invisible leash" and she flipped out and called 911 cause I was violating the law and I pissed her off with the collar! Luckily our local animal control officer and I are friends and he told her to mind her own business. They all disbursed and we continued on running blinds.;-)


That's like saying the cell phone she used to call 911 wasn't actually a phone because it didn't have a cord.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Hank said:


> There *are* a few serious questions on my mind. The major one being why isn't the Chesapeake more popular than it is? Is there anyone out there who has anything to say how e-collars work with other breeds? Is it trickier to try to train the other retriever breeds with an e-collar (or is it some other consideration that makes the Lab so popular)? I know that among many pro trainers there is an extreme bias in favor of not just Labs but black Labs. Is it justified? Why, exactly? Are there drills or techniques to be developed that would be particular to the other retriever breeds that could make them more competitive with collar conditioned Labs trained with "indirect pressure"?


As far as Chesapeakes, they'll never be as popular as Labs because the average pet owner is overdogged with a Chesapeake: You have to be smarter than the dog to train it. I'm not speaking of most of the members here but the general public which is why the Lab is so popular as a pet. They're also more popular for field trials because there are more of them available bred for that sport. Just like if you got into herding trials you'd probably want to get a border collie because other herding breeds arent' as common and are harder to find bred to work.

Chesapeakes handle ecollar pressure fine. Just like Labs, some won't tolerate anything but low settings judiciously used and some ignore anything but the higher settings. I'd venture to say Goldens are the same way. I am speaking, of course, of retrievers bred for the field and not those bred for pets or show or some other non working venue. Of using collars on those not bred specifically for field work, I'd also venture to say that those that don't tolerate ecollar use are mostly those that cringe and submissively pee at any type of correction.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I've been here a while now and I didn't know the term shock collar was a no-no. I use it all the time when describing it to people who want to understand how we train. E- collar doesn't really tell how it works. Maybe folks in Montana are different, we sure don't have any animal rights groups here, and 4H is a big deal for young girls who raise lambs and pigs as pets to be sold, slaughtered and eaten, so our general attitude might be a little more hard core. I guess I'll have to be more careful when I train in California.

John


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't know about Chessies, but Goldens train exactly like Labs as far as the collar goes. I think another reason for Labs dominating in numbers is that their gene pool is huge, Labs go back quite a bit longer than Goldens if you can believe Richard Wolters history of the Labrador Retriever.

John


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> I've been here a while now and I didn't know the term shock collar was a no-no. I use it all the time when describing it to people who want to understand how we train. E- collar doesn't really tell how it works.


LOL, I say shock collar and e collar interchangably. Here if you say e-collar people think you are talking Elizabethean collar you get from the vet post surgery.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Using the term shock collar could be kind of like hunters driving around with game strapped to the hood of a truck, to show it off. The Neutral people that dont care eather way get turned off on hunters and then they are on the other side of the fence.
Same as the lady that saw the feild trial and birds being shot. She probably didnt even know what one was untill she saw the poor little birds.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I've been here a while now and I didn't know the term shock collar was a no-no. I use it all the time when describing it to people who want to understand how we train. E- collar doesn't really tell how it works. *Maybe folks in Montana are different, we sure don't have any animal rights groups here,* and 4H is a big deal for young girls who raise lambs and pigs as pets to be sold, slaughtered and eaten, so our general attitude might be a little more hard core. I guess I'll have to be more careful when I train in California.
> 
> John


John the reason you dont have many animal rights groups there YET is that it takes a bit of toughness to live in Montana,hunting and fishing are an integral part of your states heritage and to some extent tourist economy.You cant be a tree hugging girlie man and survive the Montana outdoors.:razz:


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> You cant be a tree hugging girlie man and survive the Montana outdoors.:razz:


Then how the heck come do we have them here in Alaska? :-(


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Cruise ships!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Then how the heck come do we have them here in Alaska? :-(


Alaska has polar bears, seals,penguins,grizzly bears, and whales...all prime targets for PETA and Greenpeace....thats just a guess


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

just for the record....my GSP responds better to the training collar than does my lab....

she will test me, (and the level 'up' switch) on a regular basis when training her. He rolled over like a wave on the beach when I started using it on him at the same age. Breed has nothing to do with effectiveness.

and as for non-sporting dogs...I strapped a training collar on a 130 pound out of control Great Dane to demonstrate it's effectiveness to a young lady who bought a cute little 6-8 week, 10 pound puppy and decided to wait until it was 8 months old and 130 pounds to start trying to teach it to sit, stay, and heel reliably.

One 'cc' lesson with sit and heel, and a few reinforcement lessons and he walks and sits like an angel for her.

He also quit 'gate charging'

and she was initially against the collar because 'it's cruel'

when I showed her how he reacted to an open gate (now he stands there with the gate open, fearing the correction, even without the collar) she changed her views.

She explained it to her boyfriend as 'it's not as cruel as having a car drag him 50 to 100 feet under it's wheel or hooked to its bumper.'


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

I know there are more then dogs being trained with "the" collar, Horses are being trained with them now too. I am not sure as to what they are being trained for, maybe Vicki can help in that area? Cribbing and such? 
I do know of several people that have used them on other non typical retriever breeds with much success on general OB. 
It is like any tool, used correctly it will get the job done, used incorrectly and you will have a huge mess. 
Example: Pipe wrench to fix the sink or a huge hammer....


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I'd like to know how ecollars are used on horses too; I see them advertised in _Blood-Horse_ all the time. I wonder if I could strap one on my 18 y.o. retired foxhunter and make him quit slinging his grain out of the bucket and digging craters under it at every meal? I have worked on this since I first got him at age 3; the only thing he's learned is not to do it when I'm holding a bucket over his head. ;-) Vicki, anyone? Should I get him an ecollar?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

agile.labs said:


> LOL, I say shock collar and e collar interchangably. *Here if you say e-collar people think you are talking Elizabethean collar you get from the vet* post surgery.


no..... none of us think that HERE, on RTF.
wrong again skippy


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## mpage (Sep 22, 2004)

PETA- 
People 
Eating 
Tasty
Animals
Have a nice day!


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> no..... none of us think that HERE, on RTF.
> wrong again skippy


Ummm...no.... I don't live at RTF .Here meaning here BY ME, by where I live, by home. Nice try though.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

agile.labs said:


> Ummm...no.... I don't live at RTF .Here meaning here BY ME, by where I live, by home. Nice try though.


 
And what bridge is that?


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Alaska has polar bears, seals,penguins,grizzly bears, and whales...all prime targets for PETA and Greenpeace....thats just a guess


Sorry, no 'penquins' in Alaska or anywhere near the North Pole. ;-)


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> I'd like to know how ecollars are used on horses too; I see them advertised in _Blood-Horse_ all the time. I wonder if I could strap one on my 18 y.o. retired foxhunter and make him quit slinging his grain out of the bucket and digging craters under it at every meal?


If you tie one into a flank strap, I guarantee he will buck longer than 5 seconds....maybe even 8 or more. ;-)


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

I call it an E- collar or a shock collar I figure if they can't understand the fact that it is a tool that will be used then I really don't need to be training their dogs. I do not plan to conform to anyone. To me that is the same as not sporting my camo cloths or hiding the fact that I hunt to please other non hunters. I am proud of what I am and do and confident enough that i don't care. No use hiding the fact and making it something that is taboo. As far as using the collar on other breed the fact that it isn't used as much with obedience trainers I think is they don't understand it and they don't need it for their training. I have friends that train all breed obedience and service dog for the police and I tell you what those folks are very good at what they do. As a retriever trainer we are very lucky we don't have to deal with near the problems they do.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Awesome! I just read this whole thread. I am now dumber for having done so. I will go home tonight and watch the remake of 90210 to finish myself off.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> And what bridge is that?


Oh get over it. I get it. You consider me a troll because I have a difference in opinion. That is your right. You can think of me whatever you want.

Just like I have the same right to have opinions that may differ. And it doesn't make me change my opinion. And in the whole scheme of dog training, field training is a small percentage so there is no question there will be differences in opinions. Big deal.

I've moved on about it, apparently you haven't, what does that tell ya??


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

agile.labs said:


> what does that tell ya??


guard my goats ???????


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

agile.labs said:


> Oh get over it. I get it. You consider me a troll because I have a difference in opinion. That is your right. You can think of me whatever you want.
> 
> Just like I have the same right to have opinions that may differ. And it doesn't make me change my opinion. *And in the whole scheme of dog training, field training is a small percentage* so there is no question there will be differences in opinions. Big deal.
> 
> I've moved on about it, apparently you haven't, what does that tell ya??


Not here it ain't. Kind of like moving in next to an airport and then trying to make them stop the noise. It was RTF when you signed up. Retriever...dog's picking up stuff or not *in a field*.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Leddyman said:


> Retriever...dog's picking up stuff or not *in a field*.


That is where my opinion differs. There are many many uses for retrieving outside of the field as well. Can they be trained similar, sure, but there is more to training retrievers than just for the field. Much of the training for retrieving outside the field can also be done by FF. 

Even within a specific field of training there are bound to be differences in training. It happens. Just because someone trains different than others doesn't make them a bad trainer, it just makes them different. To each his own. Heaven forbid someone trains different than the norm here. I've seen those people be lashed out against too.


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## ducknwork (Jun 12, 2009)

Richard Halstead said:


> As i said to Hank the same goes to Sportnclays if you want us to value your posts you should tell about yourself.


Is that the secret to getting lots of answers to your questions? If so, I will start a thread with my life history...


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Leddyman said:


> Not here it ain't. Kind of like moving in next to an airport and then trying to make them stop the noise. .


Interesting analogy but slightly off. I will not speak for others but for myself. I have never asked come to ask anyone to stop doing what they are doing.

A more similar analogy would be: moving next to an airport to learn how to fly AIRplanes but you already know how to fly a helicoptor, so while the experience of flying is there, there are differences and ways to expand knowledge


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

::Sharing::  We don't have to make up memory games for our dogs in the winter, (BTW, where in Illinois is it -30 below? Even in WI it has _maybe _gotten that low once in decades) we can do drills.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Evan said:


> Had this person been drinking prior to making this statement?
> 
> Evan


My thoughts exactly.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> ::Sharing::  We don't have to make up memory games for our dogs in the winter,


No one HAS to do anything. I CHOOSE to



ETA: OOPs, that is referring to a completely different thread, questions should have been addressed there, my bad.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> I'd like to know how ecollars are used on horses too; I see them advertised in _Blood-Horse_ all the time. I wonder if I could strap one on my 18 y.o. retired foxhunter and make him quit slinging his grain out of the bucket and digging craters under it at every meal? I have worked on this since I first got him at age 3; the only thing he's learned is not to do it when I'm holding a bucket over his head. ;-) Vicki, anyone? Should I get him an ecollar?


Margo & Julie,

E-collars are used on horses. Just a couple of weeks ago, I watched a horse trainer use one to train a very dominant horse (gelding) in a huge pasture with about 15 pasture mates. There were 2 horses (a mare and a gelding) that this dominant horse would not allow to get near the round bale nor the run-in sheds. It had gotten to the point that the dominant horse would not give the "early warning" signs, such as the glare, pining of the ears, but would immediately turn to kick or bite or just chase those other 2 horses. The trainer put the e-collar on the dominant horse and then waited for the first sign of aggression. As soon as the dominant horse started to turn to kick or stretch his neck to bite, the trainer applied stimulation with the e-collar (How's that for PC lingo? LOL) The trainer did have to use the e-collar for each of the aggressive behaviors (turn to kick, stretch neck to bite or start the chase), but the correction was successful and the 2 submissive horses were able to join the herd.

In talking with the trainer, I asked what brand the collar was that he was using. It was a Tri-tronics. I mentioned that I had a Pro 500 and perhaps I would use that one on a horse owned by a friend that keeps chasing her mare. I could modify the collar by using a longer collar strap. He thought that the horse version had stronger stimulation levels than the dog version, but I haven't verified that.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Vicky Trainor said:


> He thought that the horse version had stronger stimulation levels than the dog version, but I haven't verified that.


I am pretty sure it does. This is from TT website.

While it is the same concept, ViceBreaker is not a dog collar. The correction levels on the ViceBreaker are appropriate for horses. They have a wide range of stimulation from barely perceptible to stronger so you can immediately adjust the level of correction to the situation.


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Margo & Julie,
> 
> E-collars are used on horses.
> 
> In talking with the trainer, I asked what brand the collar was that he was using. It was a Tri-tronics. I mentioned that I had a Pro 500 and perhaps I would use that one on a horse owned by a friend that keeps chasing her mare. I could modify the collar by using a longer collar strap. He thought that the horse version had stronger stimulation levels than the dog version, but I haven't verified that.


Way back when I was at Rex's we were working on horses with e-collars and modifications to use them... and TT made us a VERY LOW stim version, which eventually became a blue plug and then blue contact point, which was one-half of one. Worked great when teaching horses to back and etc. Hope this is helpful.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

agile.labs said:


> That is where my opinion differs. There are many many uses for retrieving outside of the field as well. Can they be trained similar, sure, but there is more to training retrievers than just for the field.


Yes but *THIS* forum is for *training retrievers to retrieve game in the field*. Not dumbbells in obedience rings or 'good dog' toys after jumping agility obstacles. Please don't hackle up since I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those non-retrieving sports or the way you train your dogs to play those games. They're just not what the majority who participate here do with their retrievers.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Julie R. said:


> Not dumbbells in obedience rings or 'good dog' toys after jumping agility obstacles. .


I was actually thinking more along the lines of SAR, drug dogs, tracking, scent work, disability dogs,etc Much of that can be started using FF and some even look for started "field" dogs to take into their program.

I think specifically of wheelchair bound people. They often times don't qualify for a service dog. They don't have the physical ability to do the FF themselves But get someone who can help them that has knowledge in FF and CC for that matter and the wheelchair bound person has some extra help around the house.

And so much of this forum is "training" the dogs it is simply taking the knowledge and training that is already used and being able to apply it somewhere else.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

agile.labs said:


> I was actually thinking more along the lines of SAR, drug dogs, tracking, scent work, disability dogs,etc


JEESH! Is this debate still going on?? 

agile.labs, there are many, many valuable skills that may be performed by many, various breeds of dogs. The merit or value of those activities is not under question by anyone.

Most of that work can be, and is performed by retriever breeds BUT also by many other breeds; sometimes better. And, yes, other breeds can be taught to retrieve if you mean fetching the slippers, newspaper, glove on a tracking course, tennis ball in the yard or a rock from the bottom of the pool. Even a duck from the clear water 30 yards out off the shore.

However, when referring to "retrieving", with the _retriever breeds_ in mind, it is generally understood by most of the general public, and certainly by most here (on RTF) that the task under discussion IS retrieving shot game in the field. This is the area of expertise of these breeds and when considering a dog to perform this work AT A HIGH LEVEL, one of the retriever breeds is the obvious choice.

You sound like a person who loves working with dogs and has a lot of varied interests. Great!! But it seems you insist on sitting down with a group of major league baseball players and trying to steer the conversation toward your kid's T-ball game.

Put *GDG* behind it.

JS


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

JS said:


> However, when referring to "retrieving", with the _retriever breeds_ in mind, it is generally understood by , and certainly by most here (on RTF) that the task under discussion IS retrieving shot game in the field. This is the area of expertise of these breeds and when considering a dog to perform this work AT A HIGH LEVEL, one of the retriever breeds is the obvious choice.


Well then you have my apologies and my sincerest departing regards. *I*(not asking anyone else) use this type of training in other fields. Similar training, different outcome. There is a lot to learn when it comes to "training" and I guess since I don't apply it the same way, I am not welcome. No harm done.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> Yes but *THIS* forum is for *training retrievers to retrieve game in the field*. Not dumbbells in obedience rings or 'good dog' toys after jumping agility obstacles. Please don't hackle up since I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those non-retrieving sports or the way you train your dogs to play those games. They're just not what the majority who participate here do with their retrievers.



its about time...THANK YOU....

agile labs you are welcome here but you have a different agenda than most on here, sorry if you dont feel welcome but I think everyone acknowledges that labs, rescue labs, and rescue dogs can serve many useful purposes...let it go you made your point


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> its about time...THANK YOU....
> 
> ...let it go you made your point


Bon, if only it were that easy. I have a feeling agile will never feel like she made her point. Like so many that get lost in theory reality is just a small annoying detail.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Bruce MacPherson said:


> Bon, if only it were that easy. I have a feeling agile will never feel like she made her point. Like so many that get lost in theory reality is just a small annoying detail.


reality is just a small annoying detail

I like that a lot.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Margo Ellis said:


> reality is just a small annoying detail
> 
> I like that a lot.


and I like this


> But it seems you insist on sitting down with a group of major league baseball players and trying to steer the conversation toward your kid's T-ball game.


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## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

Richard Halstead said:


> I would think you might want to introduce yourself before you try to get a discussion going. As far as Northern Illinois covers a large region and areas outside of Chicago used to be considered downstate


 Dag Digglely Dern it!!! No wonder everyone ignores my posts,here I thought it was cuz they were all mindless jibberish.

Down province Manitoba regards.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

It appears that it is time to "agree to disagree" and move on.

Thread locked.


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