# Has the "Lean Mac" Effect Changed....



## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I have been looking at the National Finalists Open and Amateur since 2001.
There has been 133 different dogs finishing a AKC National Event. Lean Mac was the top sire during this era or the sires sire. I will have the final count by Monday. There are a lot good dogs that title but it's looking like the Lean Mac dogs are a large % of those finishing a National. What do you think?


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## ladylwyer (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm guessing he also produced the most litters and a larger percentage of pups went to field trial homes which would have an impact on the % of numbers competing in field trials and national events as to other sires.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Richard ,without seeing the actual numbers I think your premise will probably hold up, but we are also now in the era of LM being the grandsire or even great grand sire of the dogs competing. the unscientific poll I tried the other day showed me some of the dogs owned by members here on RTN and the trend toward other sires, but LM still casts a long shadow on the game...


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard, have you done a similar analysis with Honcho?

Honcho was the prepotent stud in his day and he cast a long shadow in our game also. 

He lived in the day of no frozen or chilled semen so he had to meet the mothers of his pups, so there may be some apples to oranges comparison there.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Richard, have you done a similar analysis with Honcho?
> 
> Honcho was the prepotent stud in his day and he cast a long shadow in our game also.
> 
> He lived in the day of no frozen or chilled semen so he had to meet the mothers of his pups, so there may be some apples to oranges comparison there.


From a "batting average" standpoint -_ number of FC offspring relative to number of breedings_... no stud will ever touch Honcho as a producer.

SM


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

A couple of years ago at the Nat'l Open, Lean Mac had sired something like 34 of the qualified dogs. I know he still had quite a few at the 2008 Nat'l Open.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> From a "batting average" standpoint -_ number of FC offspring relative to number of breedings_... no stud will ever touch Honcho as a producer.
> 
> SM


I think you are right, but it sure would be fun to research the top 5..got any guess on the other four


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

Best producing sire of all time Ebonstar Lean Mac
Best producing Dam of all time Candlewood's "Lottie"

I don't care how you cut it. these two dogs and their pedigree which includes "Honcho" in the case of "Lottie" and the likes have produced.

Give me an agruement of any other sire or dam or for that matter and kennel that has produced more field trial titled dogs than Candlewood

I don't care where the pups went or how many times they were bred. I happen to own a FC from Lean Mac and Be Be (full sister to "Lottie") five FC's or AFC's in one litter
Plus another Lean Mac bitch
I trial them, hunt them on pheasants mayben 70 days a year

Now I am not a big shot, unlimited money, send to the pro, type of guy, 
Taught school for 33 years so you should know

People he was a great producer - get over it
Lottie was a great dam and her offspring have been great and great producers
trog


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

trog said:


> Best producing sire of all time Ebonstar Lean Mac
> Best producing Dam of all time Candlewood's "Lottie"
> 
> I don't care how you cut it. these two dogs and their pedigree which includes "Honcho" in the case of "Lottie" and the likes have produced.
> ...


Trog, relax you are preaching to the choir, no one here is challenging LM, his blood flows in 3 of our 5 dogs. I just agreed with statistically Honcho wasnt bred as often as LeanMac...LM is to retrievers what Storm Cat is to thoroughbred horse racing, he IS THE MOST PROLIFIC STUD OF RETRIEVERS OF ALL TIME...dont think that will ever be challenged at least not in my lifetime

I will challenge best dam of all time...FC AFC Nakai Anny


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## Linas Danilevicius (Jan 2, 2009)

This was posted on the Dancing Dog forum today by "BoomerRang" (credit goes to BoomerRang for research) who looked at the 2008 National for well known Sires and Dams:

"Here is a list of Sires with 2 or more progeny entered in the 2008 National Open:

Ebonstar Lean Mac: 13
FargoII: 6
Fordland's Bored Out Ford: 5
Carbon Copy of Horn Creek: 4
Chena River Chavez: 4
Code Blue: 4
Creek Robber: 4
Maxx's Suprise: 4
Abe's Ebony And Ivory: 3
Tiger McBunn: 3
Dare To Dream(Cosmo): 2
DB's Cracker of Clubmead: 2
Hilltop's Hayseed(Bubba): 2

Dam's With 2 or More Progeny Entered:

Candlewood's Rita Reynolds: 2
Case Harded Colors: 2
Iron Lines Annie Oakley: 2
M And M's Buns of Steel: 2
Ms Mischief Tanks Harley Alot: 2
Rebel Ridge Up All Nite: 2"

Credit to BoomeRang Senior Member Dancing Dog forum.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Linas said:


> Dam's With 2 or More Progeny Entered:
> 
> Candlewood's Rita Reynolds: 2
> Case Harded Colors: 2
> ...


And, might I add to that list:
FC-AFC JB's So Rude, dam of, 

#28, FC-AFC My Name Is Bocephus, and
#52 FC-AFC Drove My Chevy To The Levee
Sorry, as the breeder, couldn't help but notice she was left off in Retriever News. 

Bo and Chevy were line bred on Maxx, so I guess that says how I feel about him.


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

cakaiser said:


> And, might I add to that list:
> FC-AFC JB's So Rude, dam of,
> 
> #28, FC-AFC My Name Is Bocephus, and
> ...


I would sue them ! ;-)


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

Linas said:


> This was posted on the Dancing Dog forum today by "BoomerRang" (credit goes to BoomerRang for research) who looked at the 2008 National for well known Sires and Dams:
> 
> "Here is a list of Sires with 2 or more progeny entered in the 2008 National Open:
> 
> ...


Umm, don't know how much credit "BoomerRang" gets; the above was published verbatim in the RFTN January edition, page 31. Except Boomer left a few studs off his rendition; the following complete the list, all with 2 progeny:

Dust Devil's Rendezvous
Esprit's Out of the Woods
Hawkeye's Viking
Jazztime's Frequent Flyer
Rebel Ridge Cody's Mischief
Texas WB Cocky Two Stepper
Yellowstone's TNT Explosion



and of course the Kaiser's terrific Rudy was left off the dam list.... Egregious error that!


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

Great post Linas, thank you. And thank you Boomerang for the research and the posting of it on the dancing dog forum. Credit is given for the research.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Hard to find a good dog that doesn't have LM in its pedigree and a pedigree without LM isn't always better!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> From a "batting average" standpoint -_ number of FC offspring relative to number of breedings_... no stud will ever touch Honcho as a producer.
> 
> SM



True...so VERY true.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Linas said:


> This was posted on the Dancing Dog forum today by "BoomerRang" (credit goes to BoomerRang for research) who looked at the 2008 National for well known Sires and Dams:
> 
> "Here is a list of Sires with 2 or more progeny entered in the 2008 National Open:
> 
> ...


So these numbers are impressive. But how many total puppies did each produce? What is there ration of totoal puppies to titled dogs or total puppies to national dogs? I learned very quickly I can make the numbers work in my favor if I like....

/Paul


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Honcho, Honcho, Honcho I'm not buying it until Ed gets part three posted.
In 1985 about the sixth or seventh series at the Lake Elmo Park about equal numbers of Super Powder and Honcho in that water series. They battled to the end, who won, a golden deceiver.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Richard Halstead said:


> Honcho, Honcho, Honcho I'm not buying it until Ed gets part three posted.
> In 1985 about the sixth or seventh series at the Lake Elmo Park about equal numbers of Super Powder and Honcho in that water series. They battled to the end, who won, a golden deceiver.


of those Super Powder dogs how many if any were from the breeding and subsequent repeat breeding to FC AFC Nakai Anny, of the top of my head I would guess at least two....


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Trumarc's Zip Code bred to Ms Mischief's Magic Marker was a productive cross.Maggie was out of Super Powder and Little Ms Mischief. Ms Miischief had around 40 derby points. The cross of Maggie and Codyis seen inmany pedigrees. In the candlewood lines you always find River Oaks Rascal to nellie B Good. A foundation for the Candlewood lines. no Nellie there would be no Lottie.


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

No Honcho, No Tank, No Lottie. You can go on and on with this. I would like to see the number fc afcs that where produced to the % of pups produced from the sires.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Does AKC publish number of breedings a sire has anywhere? I know when I had registered dairy goats part of the report dealt with production vs number of times the sire was bred to get the top producers. This could be done if you knew the number of breedings. 

Personally I think there are so many good dogs out there with the all age points being more spread out between them and they usually have some LM back there but whenever you see exceptional breedings, there is usually an exceptional female there.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

born2retrieve said:


> No Honcho, No Tank, No Lottie. You can go on and on with this. I would like to see the number fc afcs that where produced to the % of pups produced from the sires.


Ed posted it once before, and it seems like Honcho's record was around 1:1 -FCs to breedings... maybe 75 breedings and 90 FCs or vice versa.

If any other stud is even close to that record, it would be our biggest gift from Honcho.... Cody!

SM


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Ed posted it once before, and it seems like Honcho's record was around 1:1 -FCs to breedings... maybe 75 breedings and 90 FCs or vice versa.


I have 76 FC so I would say then Honcho would still be the top producer. I think breeding to FC Watergator Sam might have produced more FC per breeding but he was not bred much at all.
Junbe would know that stat. Maybe one in every breeding for 7?


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I have 76 FC so I would say then Honcho would still be the top producer. I think breeding to FC Watergator Sam might have produced more FC per breeding but he was not bred much at all.
> Junbe would know that stat.


76 FCs in 91 breedings? 91 is in my head for some reason.

It wasn't too long ago that Lean Mac passed Honcho in number of titled offspring, but he was bred 4-5 times more than Honcho.

Lean Mac has the most career home runs, but Honcho has the highest batting average of all time. Cody is probably 2nd - i'm guessing. Ed would know.

SM


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I was planning on a more detailed report, but I got lazyand will give the count. Of the 124 Finalist since 2000 Lean Mac sired 30. Lean Mac sired sons and daughters also produced another 30. So Lean Mac was a parent or grand parent of half of the Finalists. High Tech CEO, Tiger McBunn, and Whitie IV were the biggest group of siblings.

Cosmo and Harley was the next best producers with 4 each. There were five sets of two siblings from various other crosses.

Trumarc's Zip Code x MS Mischief's Magic Marker produced 8 titled from four breedings that is 2:1 ratio.


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## Linas Danilevicius (Jan 2, 2009)

Mr. Halstead,

Of the research you have done, in the 30 dogs Sired by Lean Mac or the additional 30 his offspring, was Lean Mac on one side of the breeding only or was he on both the Sire and Dam's side? Does this affect the outcome of the statistics where Lean Mac was a linebreeding and shows up on each side of the pedigree? It would be interesting to see. Hope my question makes sense.

Linas


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## DJSchuur (Dec 9, 2006)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> 76 FCs in 91 breedings? 91 is in my head for some reason.
> 
> It wasn't too long ago that Lean Mac passed Honcho in number of titled offspring, but he was bred 4-5 times more than Honcho.
> 
> ...


correct me if i am wrong but should'nt the era in which these dogs were campaigned be taken in to consideration when having this discussion.


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## Jennifer Teed (Jan 28, 2009)

Lean Mac shows up in my pups pedigree. It's really exciting! I hope the talented genes shine through


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

pezz said:


> Lean Mac shows up in my pups pedigree. It's really exciting! I hope the talented genes shine through


 
Oh, Good Grief!!!!!


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

Richard Halstead said:


> I was planning on a more detailed report, but I got lazyand will give the count. Of the 124 Finalist since 2000 Lean Mac sired 30. Lean Mac sired sons and daughters also produced another 30. So Lean Mac was a parent or grand parent of half of the Finalists. High Tech CEO, Tiger McBunn, and Whitie IV were the biggest group of siblings.
> 
> Cosmo and Harley was the next best producers with 4 each. There were five sets of two siblings from various other crosses.
> 
> Trumarc's Zip Code x MS Mischief's Magic Marker produced 8 titled from four breedings that is 2:1 ratio.


Really good info Richard. REally good post.
Hope all is going well.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

moorelabs said:


> Oh, Good Grief!!!!!


 
Priceless!!


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## Dick Jennings (Mar 19, 2007)

DJSchuur's question seems to be a good one, essentially "shouldn't the era in which Honcho and Maxx were bred and competed in be considered when comparing productivity statistics?". Honcho in the mid 70's? Maxx in the mid 90's? Have the number of people involved in retriever games increased since the 70's?.....probably. The number of litters probably increased significantly from the 70's to the 90's. The availability of a very well bred dog for the average hunter probably increased significantly. Hunt tests,...when did they begin?.....HRC early 80's? AKC late 70's?

Given the era in which Maxx lived, its probably not unusual that he produced so many litters,.... with the vast majority of his progeny never going to field trial homes/trucks.

Honcho and Maxx, two of the greats.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Dick Jennings said:


> DJSchuur's question seems to be a good one, essentially "shouldn't the era in which Honcho and Maxx were bred and competed in be considered when comparing productivity statistics?". Honcho in the mid 70's? Maxx in the mid 90's? Have the number of people involved in retriever games increased since the 70's?.....probably. The number of litters probably increased significantly from the 70's to the 90's. The availability of a very well bred dog for the average hunter probably increased significantly. Hunt tests,...when did they begin?.....HRC early 80's? AKC late 70's?
> *
> Given the era in which Maxx lived, its probably not unusual that he produced so many litters,.... with the vast majority of his progeny never going to field trial homes/trucks.*
> 
> Honcho and Maxx, two of the greats.


In many ways you are correct, but Shayne was not trying to say Honcho was better than Maxx, I think he was using simple statistics, hence the baseball batting average reference. In lots of ways we are comparing apples to oranges, like comparing Tiger Woods to Jack Nicklaus, both without question the best of their era. Back in the days of Honcho there was no internet , no cell phone to close a breeding withing minutes. If you didnt know Judy/ EdA you had to call someone who knew someone who knew how to get a hold of them and hope the recorder was on. in todays world its an email and maybe a text and next thing you know pedigrees are exchanged in seconds and flights are being booked within the hour.Forums like this prove how the game/sport have evolved...now you think local but act global. I can chat with Aussie 17 hrs away when most sane people are asleep in bed, CNM tests have to be sent to France, way back when before EE you had the home address and sometimes phone # of every trial secretary on your circuit and you knew where your western union office was.

here is another for you theorists out there. Super Powder was bred to FC AFC Nakai Annie 4 times and it produced 9 FC or AFC's , based on percentages would she be among the leaders in Dam's next to Lottie ?


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> here is another for you theorists out there. Super Powder was bred to FC AFC Nakai Annie 4 times and it produced 9 FC or AFC's , based on percentages would she be among the leaders in Dam's next to Lottie ?


According to gooddoginfo, AFC CANDLEWOOD'S MS COSTALOT with 14 titled offspring and FC-AFC-CNFC-CAFC CHENA RIVER NO SURPRISE with 13 titled offspring, both would be right above Nakai Annie's 11 TOS, then fishtrap aggie with 10.


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## ladylwyer (Dec 17, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts, so if this has been mentioned, please ignore. The ability to collect frozen semen and ship semen to a designated location wasn't really perfected until the early 90's. I know Oklahoma State University Vet School opened their collection and AI program in 1992. In any event, the procedure was expensive and not reliable. Cody and Honcho were long gone by then. It was a close tie between LM and Cosmo as to which one made the collecting and shipping a preferred method of breeding. Sherwin exploited the AI method to perfection with LM and Maxx. My guess is, had frozen semen and AI been available in Honcho's time, there's not a dog living or dead that would surpass the number of pups and winners produced by San Joaquin Honcho.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

JChristian said:


> I believe the only closest direct bloodline to NFC FC AFC San Joaquin Honcho is the banked semen of a son of Honcho, "Sunnyview's King of Spades MH, GMHR, bred and owned by Richard Wiener of Sunnyview Labradors in Salem Oregon 503-378-0333.


There are probably other Honcho sons collected out there. I don't believe many in the retriever community would deal with RW after they got caught in big time poaching .


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

labsforme said:


> There are probably other Honcho sons collected out there. I don't believe many in the retriever community would deal with RW after they got caught in big time poaching .


I think if Lottie was still alive I would buy one of her pups. I wouldn't care if her owner was a convicted murderer. Vic


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

ladylwyer said:


> I haven't read all the posts, so if this has been mentioned, please ignore. The ability to collect frozen semen and ship semen to a designated location wasn't really perfected until the early 90's. I know Oklahoma State University Vet School opened their collection and AI program in 1992. In any event, the procedure was expensive and not reliable. Cody and Honcho were long gone by then. It was a close tie between LM and Cosmo as to which one made the collecting and shipping a preferred method of breeding. Sherwin exploited the AI method to perfection with LM and Maxx. My guess is, had frozen semen and AI been available in Honcho's time*, there's not a dog living or dead that would surpass the number of pups and winners produced by San Joaquin Honcho*.


NAFC FC Ray's Rascal say hello.....he was the cornerstone of the Lean Mac line and the prepotent sire of his generation


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

ZEKESMAN said:


> I think if Lottie was still alive I would buy one of her pups. I wouldn't care if her owner was a convicted murderer. Vic


My avatar 9 years old now is a Lottie grand daughter. No I am not a convicted murder. Just a lousy handler.


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## @wk2hntducks (Oct 17, 2017)

Interesting to read this thread from 2009. My 8 year old blf is a ft washout I bought when she was about to turn 2 and she went through force fetch again with my pro and has retrieved over 3500 ducks and geese and no telling how many doves- she is a Lean Mac granddaughter on her mothers side with a very unimpressive top side, but has the prey drive of a demon. My new puppy out of Cosmo has Lean Mac on the bottom side as her great - great grandfather through Grady and she is coming along great, just hoping she will do all the things my older dog can. Always enjoy reading here.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Here is a fun fact. Big Black Dude II is of Honcho lineage. There were quite a few "eh" speaking, titled champs in the long list. I chose that Dude line for one of those reasons. Does that make me a Lean Mack rebel?


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