# National Amateur



## Jay Dufour

Looks like starting out with a bear this morning !


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## Chris Videtto

I wish they had a better diagram of the set up! seems much tougher than yesterday.


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## Jacob Hawkes

3rd Series is a water triple with 2 retired & a mallard hen flyer. The middle island bird is proving difficult thus far in the early going. 

54, 56, & 57 have handled. Started with #50 who had a no bird.


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## EdA

Chris Videtto said:


> I wish they had a better diagram of the set up! seems much tougher than yesterday.


It is much more difficult, water and island marks make it that way. Generally the first set of water marks involves very little swimming, usually more like land marks through water, it is unusual to have a test this time consuming this early, if the time estimates are correct they may not finish tomorrow.


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## Jacob Hawkes

If my math is correct, 26 1/4 hours to run 105 dogs (15 minute average.). That's not including rebirds & gun changes.

That said, if they drop all the handles that they're averaging, (I know it's early in the day & not all handles/gorilla hunts are created equal.) they could really cut the field down significantly.


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## junbe

Two day test?--Then big cuts based on 5 marks. land blind?


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## JS

If it continues as it is going now, both timewise and performancewise, a handle will send you home. :-x

JS


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## Jacob Hawkes

58 & 60 handled.


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## 2goldens

chris videtto said:


> i wish they had a better diagram of the set up! Seems much tougher than yesterday.


where do you see the diagrams?????


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## Jacob Hawkes

junbe said:


> Two day test?--Then big cuts based on 5 marks. land blind?


We have no clue what's going to happen, but if things hold the same & if they do make a big cut (2 big ifs as this is speculation @ best.) I don't see the issue. IMO, marks should matter more & I do not like the idea of handles playing. Whenever you get a chance to drop the dog, do it. Again, strictly IMO.


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## HiRollerlabs

2goldens said:


> where do you see the diagrams?????


Diagram/sketch is provided in the Blog on http://www.theretrievernews.com/home . Click on BLOG Coverage. If you look carefully at the sketch, you can see an "x" where the bird will land. It would help if the arc were drawn from the gun station to the fall spot. If you read the setup description, and apply it to the sketch you can visualize the falls.

Significant cuts made after 5 marks and one blind is better than some years where significant cuts have been after the 3rd series based on 2 land marks, 1 land blind and 1 water blind (IMO). And, the judges may decide to carry handles. It has happened in other nationals and dogs with handles have been finalists.


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## HiRollerlabs

EdA said:


> It is much more difficult, water and island marks make it that way.


Dr Ed,
Which way was the wind blowing when this setup started? I realize with the stormy weather that it may change, and change often. I am thinking about the flyer feathers, and the middle bird .
.


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## HiRollerlabs

There is an updated sketch in the BLOG that shows the arc of the falls, and the order of the throws is numbered.


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## Ted Shih

​Unusually big for third series. More like 8,9, or 10th series test


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## EdA

HiRollerlabs said:


> Dr Ed,
> Which way was the wind blowing when this setup started? I realize with the stormy weather that it may change, and change often. I am thinking about the flyer feathers, and the middle bird .
> .


I have not been to the trial as I will not run until tomorrow afternoon but I have clean clothes and a clean truck, will report when I see the test in person.


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## Ted Shih

Jacob Hawkes said:


> If my math is correct, 26 1/4 hours to run 105 dogs (15 minute average.). That's not including rebirds & gun changes.
> 
> That said, if they drop all the handles that they're averaging, (I know it's early in the day & not all handles/gorilla hunts are created equal.) they could really cut the field down significantly.


Traditionally, unlike weekend field trials, dogs are allowed two dings (e.g handle, huge hunt, bad blind) before they are dropped. Again, traditionally, the big cut comes after the 5th series land triple/ quad


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## JKOttman

HiRollerlabs said:


> There is an updated sketch in the BLOG that shows the arc of the falls, and the order of the throws is numbered.


From what I understand, the flyer throw is actually much squarer to the line than indicated on the diagram (thus shorter swim, shorter test).


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## GG

Judging a national is different from a weekend trial, generally speaking, a dog should not be dropped because of one handle! The unwritten rule is: two major faults will get you eliminated---at least in my day. 

Too many judges focus on tests that will eliminate dogs instead of tests that will fairly evaluate them---a mentality through all my years i never understood. 
GG


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## Rainmaker

Jacob Hawkes said:


> We have no clue what's going to happen, but if things hold the same & if they do make a big cut (2 big ifs as this is speculation @ best.) I don't see the issue. IMO, marks should matter more & I do not like the idea of handles playing. *Whenever you get a chance to drop the dog, do it. Again, strictly IMO*.


I surely hope you change this attitude if and when you judge.


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## ErinsEdge

Jacob Hawkes said:


> We have no clue what's going to happen, but if things hold the same & if they do make a big cut (2 big ifs as this is speculation @ best.) I don't see the issue. IMO, marks should matter more & I do not like the idea of handles playing. * Whenever you get a chance to drop the dog, do it. Again, strictly IMO*.


I would consider listening to those who have actually run nationals and I also second hoping you don't judge with that attitude.


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## huntinman

ErinsEdge said:


> *I would consider listening to those who have actually run nationals and I also second hoping you don't judge with that attitude*.


Good advice


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## Guest

Jacob Hawkes said:


> We have no clue what's going to happen, but if things hold the same & if they do make a big cut (2 big ifs as this is speculation @ best.) I don't see the issue. IMO, marks should matter more & I do not like the idea of handles playing. Whenever you get a chance to drop the dog, do it. Again, strictly IMO.


Jacob,

Now would be a good time for you to hush up and see how a National is different than anything you have experienced. When Mr. Danny gets home, ask him what he thinks about a handle not playing and let us know what he says. 

And please don't start judging until you lose the "whenever you get a chance to drop the dog, do it" mentality. You have formed some very strong opinions for your extremely short amount of time in the game. Don't Phase 2 us for too long, K? Thankuverymuch. :razz:


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## junbe

If I read the posted set-up sheet correctly, this is supposed to be a 9-minute test. If that is correct, they should still have time to finish a short water blind tomorrow.


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## Jacob Hawkes

Ted Shih said:


> Traditionally, unlike weekend field trials, dogs are allowed two dings (e.g handle, huge hunt, bad blind) before they are dropped. Again, traditionally, the big cut comes after the 5th series land triple/ quad


It was pure speculation @ best as I said. I merely said it as the time frame shows 2 days to finish & if they did it. Not saying they would.

Now, here's a question that you can answer in pm if you'd rather do so. Besides it being tradition, why is it that a dog who is clean and sometimes very clean dropped after a handle in the 9th when a dog who handles in the 1st and even another handle later isn't dropped? Those are the real head scratchers for myself. Just morbid curiosity is all.


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## Breck

Well, 1st gun change and about 1/3 of the dogs have handled so far. Sounds like a difficult test. I trained in those ponds 5 years ago and we did some very similar bridge bird kind of stuff. I remember it kicked my dogs royal butt. That doughnut pond off to the right was sort of fun too.


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## Breck

Jacob Hawkes said:


> It was pure speculation @ best as I said. I merely said it as the time frame shows 2 days to finish & if they did it. Not saying they would.
> 
> Now, here's a question that you can answer in pm if you'd rather do so. Besides it being tradition, why is it that a dog who is clean and sometimes very clean dropped after a handle in the 9th when a dog who handles in the 1st and even another handle later isn't dropped? Those are the real head scratches for myself. Just morbid curiosity is all.


It's like NASCAR. If you hit the wall on lap 20 you have time to recover and might keep running. If you hit the wall on the last lap you're done.


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## Jacob Hawkes

Rainmaker said:


> I surely hope you change this attitude if and when you judge.


I should have specified. A total failure is what I was talking about. Sorry, but I, nor pretty much anybody I know believes that a dog with mediocre marks & a complete failure on a blind should keep playing in a weekend FT.



ErinsEdge said:


> I would consider listening to those who have actually run nationals and I also second hoping you don't judge with that attitude.


I cleared up the misunderstanding.



Melanie Foster said:


> Jacob,
> 
> Now would be a good time for you to hush up and see how a National is different than anything you have experienced. When Mr. Danny gets home, ask him what he thinks about a handle not playing and let us know what he says.
> 
> And please don't start judging until you lose the "whenever you get a chance to drop the dog, do it" mentality. You have formed some very strong opinions for your extremely short amount of time in the game. Don't Phase 2 us for too long, K? Thankuverymuch. :razz:


I believe we actually had a discussion about handles in a National just last fall while training @ The Caire's property. Sigh.

I think you'll agree with what I said on the clarification.


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## HiRollerlabs

GG said:


> Judging a national is different from a weekend trial, generally speaking, a dog should not be dropped because of one handle! The unwritten rule is: two major faults will get you eliminated---at least in my day.
> 
> Too many judges focus on tests that will eliminate dogs instead of tests that will fairly evaluate them---a mentality through all my years i never understood.
> GG


It's always more enjoyable to run under judges that are cheering and hoping for the dogs to do well!


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## Rainmaker

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I should have specified. A total failure is what I was talking about. Sorry, but I, nor pretty much anybody I know believes that a dog with mediocre marks & a complete failure on a blind should keep playing in a weekend FT.


Total failure is a tad different than what you implied in your original post, where you prefaced it with saying you didn't like handles to keep playing. But won't sidetrack this thread any further, we all have our own preferences for dog work and those judging it.


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## Guest

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Besides it being tradition, why is it that a dog who is clean and sometimes very clean dropped after a handle in the 9th when a dog who handles in the 1st and even another handle later isn't dropped?


Because the latter dog most likely made it to the 10th series and handled there. Dogs who make it to the 10th and pick up the birds are finalists. Where have you seen a double handle prior to the 10th series getting called back? That would be quite rare.


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## Jacob Hawkes

Melanie Foster said:


> Because the latter dog most likely made it to the 10th series and handled there. Dogs who make it to the 10th and pick up the birds are finalists. Where have you seen a double handle prior to the 10th series getting called back? That would be quite rare.


Not a double handle. A dog with 2 separate handles. Again, I should have specified.


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## EdA

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Now, here's a question that you can answer in pm if you'd rather do so. Besides it being tradition, why is it that a dog who is clean and sometimes very clean dropped after a handle in the 9th when a dog who handles in the 1st and even another handle later isn't dropped? Those are the real head scratchers for myself. Just morbid curiosity is all.


When I ran my first National Amateur in 1982 someone far wiser and more experienced told me that when you make a mistake is often more important than what that mistake is, ie if you make a mistake in a series that the judges want to drop dogs you will probably be gone. One of the many great challenges of judging a National is being consistent with drops.


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## HiRollerlabs

EdA said:


> I have not been to the trial as I will not run until tomorrow afternoon but I have clean clothes and a clean truck, will report when I see the test in person.


I see the wind direction is noted on the sketch.

Handler names have been added to each dog, and I see names of folks for the photos as well. Good BLOG!


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## Guest

My bad, I meant to say two handles, not a double handle. You all know I am not a morning person!


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## huntinman

Jacob Hawkes said:


> It was pure speculation @ best as I said. I merely said it as the time frame shows 2 days to finish & if they did it. Not saying they would.
> 
> Now, here's a question that you can answer in pm if you'd rather do so. Besides it being tradition, *why is it that a dog who is clean and sometimes very clean dropped after a handle in the 9th when a dog who handles in the 1st and even another handle later isn't dropped?* Those are the real head scratchers for myself. Just morbid curiosity is all.


I can answer that one because it happened to me. In the 2001 Nat'l in Cheraw, SC I went into the 9th very clean. My dog ended up with a massive hunt out of the area... AND a handle (her first) 2 dings and I was dropped. It was like a kick in the gut... but we failed the test. 

But the real answer to your question is: it depends... on the dogs other work... Only the judges know.


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## Jacob Hawkes

EdA said:


> When I ran my first National Amateur in 1982 someone far wiser and more experienced told me that when you make a mistake is often more important than what that mistake is, ie if you make a mistake in a series that the judges want to drop dogs you will probably be gone. One of the many great challenges of judging a National is being consistent with drops.


Thank you, Dr. Ed. That makes it a little clearer for myself. Good luck tomm & throughout the week.



Melanie Foster said:


> My bad, I meant to say two handles, not a double handle. You all know I am not a morning person!


I forgive you. Just this once.



huntinman said:


> I can answer that one because it happened to me. In the 2001 Nat'l in Cheraw, SC I went into the 9th very clean. My dog ended up with a massive hunt out of the area... AND a handle (her first) 2 dings and I was dropped. It was like a kick in the gut... but we failed the test.
> 
> But the real answer to your question is: it depends... on the dogs other work... Only the judges know.


That would have knocked the wind out of me & made me want to puke. 

Thanks for your reply.


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## bfarmer

Wish I was there to see the test in person. Pretty tough 3rd series! Lots of great marking dogs handling! Good luck Dr. Ed!
Bobby


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## Jacob Hawkes

66 & 62 handled. 65 picked up. 

69 & 70 had no birds.


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## Breck

I'm not there to actually see the test but if a really good dog like Jerry Lee PU I think it's a tough 3rd Series.


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## huntinman

Breck said:


> I'm not there to actually see the test but if a really good dog like Jerry Lee PU I think it's a tough 3rd Series.


It would be interesting to know if the no-bird played into it. In other words, did he hunt where the no-bird fell? You have to be good AND have some good luck at these things...


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## JS

Melanie Foster said:


> My bad, I meant to say two handles, not a double handle. You all know I am not a morning person!


You get more pleasant in the evening? :shock:

Sorry ... I just had to get that in before someone else did! :razz:

JS


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## shawninthesticks

What do the initials in between the dogs name and handler represent?LM,LF,ETC.On the blog page.


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## Ted Shih

If you look at the setup diagram on the Blog, you will see that this test was 3A. The setup dogs apparently did this test in 9 minutes. So the judges were banking on a 9 minute test and got a 15 minute test. Which puts them in a bind. I would expect that as the test goes on, there will be a better read on the test, and times will start to drop.


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## Ted Shih

Shawn White said:


> What do the initials in between the dogs name and handler represent?LM,LF,ETC.On the blog page.



Labrador Male - LM; Labrador Female - LF


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## Miriam Wade

Shawn White said:


> What do the initials in between the dogs name and handler represent?LM,LF,ETC.On the blog page.


Only post I'm making! Represents gender and breed: LM=Lab Male, etc.

M

Oops! Ted beat me to it!


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## huntinman

Ted Shih said:


> If you look at the setup diagram on the Blog, you will see that this test was 3A. The setup dogs apparently did this test in 9 minutes. So the judges were banking on a 9 minute test and got a 15 minute test. Which puts them in a bind. I would expect that as the test goes on, there will be a better read on the test, and times will start to drop.


The last few have been about 11 mins, even with handles. Must be handling quicker.


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## bfarmer

LM- Labrador Male and LF- Labrador Female


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## EdA

Ted Shih said:


> If you look at the setup diagram on the Blog, you will see that this test was 3A. The setup dogs apparently did this test in 9 minutes. So the judges were banking on a 9 minute test and got a 15 minute test. Which puts them in a bind. I would expect that as the test goes on, there will be a better read on the test, and times will start to drop.


Most recently 10 min per dog


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## Ted Shih

huntinman said:


> I can answer that one because it happened to me. In the 2001 Nat'l in Cheraw, SC I went into the 9th very clean. My dog ended up with a massive hunt out of the area... AND a handle (her first) 2 dings and I was dropped. It was like a kick in the gut... but we failed the test.
> 
> But the real answer to your question is: it depends... on the dogs other work... Only the judges know.



I have picked up three times in the ninth. But, my dogs and I had our chances, and couldn't get it done. Regrets on my part, but no hard feelings.

I had one dog that was perfect through 7, had a monster hunt in the 8th, got dropped, and am still upset about that.


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## Ted Shih

GG said:


> Judging a national is different from a weekend trial, generally speaking, a dog should not be dropped because of one handle! The unwritten rule is: two major faults will get you eliminated---at least in my day.



The size of recent National Amateurs - over 110 dogs - puts alot of pressure on the judges.


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## EdA

Tia #66 handled, she is a wonderfully talented dog who had a great week of training, one of the best dogs in our group...


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## huntinman

Ted Shih said:


> I have picked up three times in the ninth. But, my dogs and I had our chances, and couldn't get it done. Regrets on my part, but no hard feelings.
> 
> I had one dog that was perfect through 7, had a monster hunt in the 8th, got dropped, and am still upset about that.


The only time I was really upset about one was when I had a big hunt on a hen Pheasant in the first series (as did most).... Then we were on a roll the rest of the way and got dropped after a hunt on a hen pheasant flyer in the 8th. She nailed both retired birds in that test (and pretty much throughout the trial). When I got dropped from that one, it made for a long drive home... I genuinely thought we were going to finish that Nat'l. That was the last one I ran. Getting a pup in the fall, hope to be back in a few years...


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## Ted Shih

Jacob Hawkes said:


> We have no clue what's going to happen, but if things hold the same & if they do make a big cut (2 big ifs as this is speculation @ best.) I don't see the issue. IMO, marks should matter more & I do not like the idea of handles playing. Whenever you get a chance to drop the dog, do it. Again, strictly IMO.


It requires a great sacrifice of time and money to participate in a National. You can easily spend 2.5 weeks of time - a couple days travelling each way, a week pre-National training, and another week of competition (if you are lucky). It can easily cost upwards of $5000. For many people, it is there first experience of all of the spectacle involved in a National (when you pull up for the first series of a National and see the sea of dog trucks it is amazing). The judges have participated in multiple Nationals, are familiar with the sacrifices people make to participate, and want to give people a chance to play for a few series. The Rule Book says callbacks should be generous. If that is true at a weekend trial, how much more so, should it be true at a National. 

*That is why the tradition has been that you get dropped after two significant mistakes* 

Remember that there is a difference between a failure and bad work. A no-go on a blind is a failure. Many whistles on a blind is poor work. A pickup is a failure. You fail, you are dropped on a weekend or at a National. 

There have been dogs that have won Nationals with handles and/or very poor blinds. 

As in all field trials, the work is relative.


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## Breck

Seems like the re-run dogs are having trouble.

At 11+min/dog they'll just make the turn at sunset. 9:30 
But, it seems to be cloudy/rainy today so light may fade earlier than sunset.
Hope dogs in the 100 teens don't run at dusk.


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## Jacob Hawkes

EdA said:


> Tia #66 handled, she is a wonderfully talented dog who had a great week of training, one of the best dogs in our group...


I noticed that. Made me sad, as I reaaaalllly like that white whiskered lil girl.


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## Jacob Hawkes

Ted Shih said:


> It requires a great sacrifice of time and money to participate in a National. You can easily spend 2.5 weeks of time - a couple days travelling each way, a week pre-National training, and another week of competition (if you are lucky). It can easily cost upwards of $5000. For many people, it is there first experience of all of the spectacle involved in a National (when you pull up for the first series of a National and see the sea of dog trucks it is amazing). The judges have participated in multiple Nationals, are familiar with the sacrifices people make to participate, and want to give people a chance to play for a few series. The Rule Book says callbacks should be generous. If that is true at a weekend trial, how much more so, should it be true at a National.
> 
> That is why the tradition has been that you get dropped after two significant mistakes
> 
> Remember that there is a difference between a failure and bad work. A no-go on a blind is a failure. Many whistles on a blind is poor work. A pickup is a failure. You fail, you are dropped on a weekend or at a National.
> 
> There have been dogs that have won Nationals with handles and/or very poor blinds.
> 
> As in all field trials, the work is relative.


Agreed on all parts. That's why I expounded upon my original comment. I should have been especially clear that I was talking about a weekend FT & not a National in the beginning. Thanks for your rebuttal.


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## Warren Flynt

From the looks of it, the Magnussons pretty much nailed what i want my retirement home to look like. Nice grounds.


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## huntinman

Warren Flynt said:


> From the looks of it, the Magnussons pretty much nailed what i want my retirement home to look like. Nice grounds.


Isn't it a beautiful place?? wow! Never been there, but from the photos it looks like a slice of heaven...


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## Jacob Hawkes

69, 74, 75, & 77 handled.


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## bfarmer

Boley brings in best job of the day so far! Go Boley and Chili! Keep up the good work!
Bobby


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## Darin Westphal

the overhead of the Magnusson grounds is phenomenal!!!


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## Breck

Just a guess.
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## huntinman

Darin Westphal said:


> the overhead of the Magnusson grounds is phenomenal!!!


If you can't teach a dog to run a water blind on that property, you might as well take up golf...


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## TroyFeeken

huntinman said:


> If you can't teach a dog to run a water blind on that property, you might as well take up golf...


You could golf on that property too! Quite an amazing looking place.


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## Breck

I'd like to know where the dogs are going on the middle bird etc....


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## huntinman

Breck said:


> I'd like to know where the dogs are going on the middle bird etc....


Probably to the mainland where the throwers are. Island birds can be a bear...


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## huntinman

huntinman said:


> Probably to the mainland where the throwers are. Island birds can be a bear...


Some probably swim under the arc and go long and get on that road or whatever it is...


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## Breck

huntinman said:


> Probably to the mainland where the throwers are. Island birds can be a bear...


Yea, I trained in that exact pond before throwing across stuff and it kicked my dogs ass.


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## huntinman

If I am figuring this right... 29 dogs have run. 
15 have done it without handles (without regard to hunts). 
12 handles on 1 bird. 
1 handled on 2 birds. 
1 Pick up.
I could be (and probably am wrong!!) Not sure how many no-birds may still be out there...


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## zipmarc

82. FC-AFC EVA ETHYL PROBY-WEBER, LF, Alanson C. Brown III 
...had nice quick flyer, a very nice right-hand bird, took an excellent line to the middle bird, swam to the first island, moved to the second and to the third island picking up the bird in style. Nice job for Lanse Brown


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## Breck

zipmarc said:


> *82. FC-AFC EVA ETHYL PROBY-WEBER, LF, Alanson C. Brown III*
> 
> 
> ...had nice quick flyer, a very nice right-hand bird, took an excellent line to the middle bird, swam to the first island, moved to the second and to the third island picking up the bird in style. Nice job for Lanse Brown



Way to go Lanse! Three islands didn't fool that girl!


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## Rusty Champion

FOM has a National Amateur Summary thread pinned up top. Easy to overlook. Gives updates on each dog so far. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?85645-2012-National-Amateur-Summary

I wonder how the judges are doing with all the handles. So far only 1 Double handle, but it appears the middle bird isn't the only one giving problems. I see several handles on the right bird


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## savage25xtreme

Just doesn't look like Mike without a whiskey in hand....










Give 'um hell Boley.


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## FOM

savage25xtreme said:


> Just doesn't look like Mike without a whiskey in hand....


I'm willing to bet there is one now?!  Or will be real soon.


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## Jacob Hawkes

80 handled, 81 & 83 double handled.


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## duxbac

What happened to dog 85? He was not dropped but they're on to 86?


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## huntinman

duxbac said:


> What happened to dog 85? He was not dropped but they're on to 86?


must have been a no bird.

nope...handle middle bird... dangit


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## savage25xtreme

duxbac said:


> What happened to dog 85? He was not dropped but they're on to 86?


Wondering the same thing. I hope they are just slightly out of order and Roux is about to smack the test.


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## Jim Scarborough

Roux handled on the middle bird.


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## Jacob Hawkes

That a girl Gracie. Cool beans.


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## Chris Videtto

85. FC-AFC WING MAGIC'S LOUISIANA ROUX MH, LM, Frank Price

...had a very nice flyer, for the right-hand bird, he came in wide left, turned and swam straight to the bird. A handle on the middle bird.

(#85 was not out of order, original post did not save...wireless connectivity is dicey and scarce....hang in there)
posted by Retriever News Team @ 1:20 PM 0 comments


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## HiRollerlabs

I wonder how much time elapses from "no bird", and all the birds are picked up, to "dog to the line"?


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## Jacob Hawkes

85 handled, 88 had a no bird, & 92 picked up.


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## labraiser

The way this series is going with the double handles and pick ups. Easy to cut the field down.


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## Jeff Huntington

What causes all of the no birds?


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## Jacob Hawkes

93 double handled.


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## Jacob Hawkes

Jeff Huntington said:


> What causes all of the no birds?


Birds not falling where the judges want them, flyer issues, & poppers not going off are all possible reasons. Really not that many no birds thus far.


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## huntinman

HiRollerlabs said:


> I wonder how much time elapses from "no bird", and all the birds are picked up, to "dog to the line"?


I was told by one of the participants that it takes about 10 minutes if all the birds are down. They have to go get a "pickup" dog to get the birds off the islands.

I'll bet they have figured out a way to speed that up...


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## Jacob Hawkes

88 with another no bird.


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## Eric Johnson

I still can't find the sketch of what is going on. Where is it? I opened the blog and it's not there so far as I can see.


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## huntinman

Eric Johnson said:


> I still can't find the sketch of what is going on. Where is it? I opened the blog and it's not there so far as I can see.


On the left hand margin, click on "older". scroll down towards the bottom of the page it should be near dog 52 or 53


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## Chris Videtto




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## HiRollerlabs

Jeff Huntington said:


> What causes all of the no birds?


If it is a no bird flyer, the wind could be an issue. I'm not sure how hard the wind is blowing now, but earlier it was strong and gusting.


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## savage25xtreme

Anyone else get the feeling the bloggers are reading this thread??


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## HiRollerlabs

savage25xtreme said:


> Anyone else get the feeling the bloggers are reading this thread??


I used the comment box on the Blog and asked my question, and the Retriever News Team answered it. Pretty neat option!!


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## Chris Videtto

savage25xtreme said:


> Anyone else get the feeling the bloggers are reading this thread??


Seems like it for sure!


----------



## Eric Johnson

Thanks to you both.


----------



## jeff evans

This is a good example of knowledgeable judges. You don't need a bird at 400yds to get answers. Short and sweet!


----------



## EdA

Breck said:


> I'd like to know where the dogs are going on the middle bird etc....


Definitely want to be left, at the gun or under the arc, if they know the bird is in he pond and hunt the islands they are OK, if they are too watery and go right they end up in no man's land, some excellent work, some good work, some poor work, and some double handles and pick ups. This is a very good set of water marks, no tricks, no luck, just a great solid marking test, I hope 29 and his handler are up to the challenge
.


----------



## huntinman

Ali...double handle...


----------



## Mark Chase

Traveler did it in style! Way to go Trav! Hopefully both son and Father will be around at the end!!


----------



## David

FOM said:


> I'm willing to bet there is one now?!  Or will be real soon.


Confirmed in hand


----------



## Old School Labs

EdA said:


> Definitely want to be left, at the gun or under the arc, if they know the bird is in he pond and hunt the islands they are OK, if they are too watery and go right they end up in no man's land, some excellent work, some good work, some poor work, and some double handles and pick ups. This is a very good set of water marks, no tricks, no luck, just a great solid marking test, I hope 29 and his handler are up to the challenge
> .


Ed, you and Hollywood just go out there and smack 'em, good luck.


----------



## Bridget Bodine

Mark Chase said:


> Traveler did it in style! Way to go Trav! Hopefully both son and Father will be around at the end!!


Ditto !!..............


----------



## Bridget Bodine

Best of luck Dr Ed!!!!!


EdA said:


> Definitely want to be left, at the gun or under the arc, if they know the bird is in he pond and hunt the islands they are OK, if they are too watery and go right they end up in no man's land, some excellent work, some good work, some poor work, and some double handles and pick ups. This is a very good set of water marks, no tricks, no luck, just a great solid marking test, I hope 29 and his handler are up to the challenge
> .


----------



## ReedCreek

WooHoo; congratulations to Chad and Traveler!! Chase, I agree; it would be nice to have both Father and son around at the end


----------



## Wade Thurman

huntinman said:


> If you can't teach a dog to run a water blind on that property, you might as well take up golf...


And what a beautiful golf course Jack could design on that property!!!


----------



## TonyRodgz

HiRollerlabs said:


> I used the comment box on the Blog and asked my question, and the Retriever News Team answered it. Pretty neat option!!


How is it done???


----------



## Dan Wegner

huntinman said:


> Isn't it a beautiful place?? wow! Neveri been there, but from the photos it looks like a slice of heaven...


I own one of the pre-national properties around the corner from Roger Magnusson and Randy Whitaker's places and am fortunate to be able to train with them on these grounds, on occasion. 

It truly is a slice of heaven up there and has only taken Roger a mere 30 years to create. Both Roger and his wife Pat are two of the most gracious hosts one could ask for. I'm sure anyone that sets foot on his property will agree.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

TonyRodgz said:


> How is it done???


To get the Comment box to pop up, click on an individual dog's performance on the left side or on a post by The Retriever News Team. I had to register to be able to send a comment, and that was easy to do.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

Dan Wegner said:


> I own one of the pre-national properties around the corner from Roger Magnusson and Randy Whitaker's places and am fortunate to be able to train with them on these grounds, on occasion.


Dan,
Thank you for making your property available for the NA! It takes a lot of time and $$$$$ to develop property. Hopefully we will get to see your place . Ann


----------



## MikeBoley

This is a very good test. Judges will be in control after the test is complete. Looks as if it is running a bit faster today. Chili and i are tsking the morning off. May go do some site seeing.


----------



## HiRollerlabs

MikeBoley said:


> This is a very good test. Judges will be in control after the test is complete. Looks as if it is running a bit faster today. Chili and i are tsking the morning off. May go do some site seeing.


Congratulations on your good work!! Any discussion in the gallery about running a triple at this point in the week? We are living vicariously through YOU!! Have a relaxing day.


----------



## Charles C.

It will be interesting to see the callbacks.


----------



## FOM

kjrice said:


> Due to the size of the field, I bet handles are toast.


Not all handles are created equal and neither are hunts - sorry to say but I've been told numerous times that the blog isn't exactly accurate on the adjectives been used to describe the work, so some hunts are under described while others are slightly embellished.

Anyway....we shall see.

The summary list has been updated so far...


----------



## HarryWilliams

Some of the comments have "clean" and "handle" or "hunt" in the same paragraph/sentence. I guess I could be too critical. I do appreciate the reporting. But the definition of "clean" could be different from person to person. HPW


----------



## MikeBoley

HiRollerlabs said:


> Congratulations on your good work!! Any discussion in the gallery about running a triple at this point in the week? We are living vicariously through YOU!! Have a relaxing day.


Not unheard of to have a water triple as third. General feeling in gallery is thst this is a very well concieved test. The kind you want to run. dont think the judges were counting on it taking as long as its going too. It seems to be running a bit faster today. As far as i can tell from the blog. FOM's comment about the bloggers discription is correct. Let me also state that the bloggers are doing a very nice job. It is the judges who will decide what was good and what isnt good enough to keep pkaying. The grounds are fantastic. Workers very friendly so far i have had a blast.


----------



## FOM

MikeBoley said:


> Not unheard of to have a water triple as third. General feeling in gallery is thst this is a very well concieved test. The kind you want to run. dont think the judges were counting on it taking as long as its going too. It seems to be running a bit faster today. As far as i can tell from the blog. FOM's comment about the bloggers discription is correct.  Let me also state that the bloggers are doing a very nice job. It is the judges who will decide what was good and what isnt good enough to keep pkaying. The grounds are fantastic. Workers very friendly so far i have had a blast.


Exactly...the bloggers are doing the best they can and any coverage is better than no coverage, but in the end it's up to the judges. Enjoy your day off Mike.


----------



## zipmarc

Jerry Patopea said it may take 2 days to finish up this test and it's really fun to watch.


----------



## MikeBoley

Weather is approaching, thunderstroms heading in from Lake Mich. This would certanly sliw things down. Chance the line of storms could go north of trial grounds.


----------



## savage25xtreme

Edit: what Mike said.


----------



## huntinman

kjrice said:


> That is obvious but I wouldn't want my fate in the judges' hands at this point. With that being said, the judges have some work to do, after the last dog.


If you read back further in this thread, it has been stated that there have been Nat'l finalist and winners with handles. It's all relative. 

Big nasty hunt all over the place and then you decide to handle??? may be too late. Dog just misses the mark, but keeps on going... you hit a quick whistle and put the dog on the bird...smart handling. Both show as handles on the summary, two completely different levels of work.


----------



## Warren Flynt

A general question, in trials, how do dogs do in a re-run, after a no-bird? My guess would be, they get to see the setup twice, so maybe better?.... But they also may see the standout marks, making the retired (if there is one) less cemented in their memory?......


----------



## zipmarc

19. FC-AFC WORLD FAMOUS ROSA BARKS, LF, Alanson C. Brown III 
 
...had an excellent flyer, was clean on the right-hand mar. On the long, middle retired she swam up the left-hand pond to behind the holding blind, up to the levee for a small hunt, then out to the island for a clean retrieve.

Wind is now up to approx. 15-20 mph. Posted 9:46 a.m.


----------



## savage25xtreme

Warren Flynt said:


> A general question, in trials, how do dogs do in a re-run, after a no-bird? My guess would be, they get to see the setup twice, so maybe better?.... But they also may see the standout marks, making the retired (if there is one) less cemented in their memory?......


I don't think we really know what a no-bird does to a dog. You cant erase what a dog has seen. And with the memory dogs at this level have, I don't think 4 or 5 dogs between reruns erases everything. I also think it varies from dog to dog and setup to setup.


----------



## Lynn Moore

Huge storm will put us way behind now, with lots of no birds to make up. Everyone is leaving the trial grounds.


----------



## savage25xtreme

BLOG said:


> 26. LAKE PARK DIAMOND IN THE RUFF, LM, Charles Bearden
> 
> ...excellent job on the flyer...he went wide right, went back and got the right-hand bird. On the middle retired, he when to the first island, crossed the second and went over third and got the bird with a beautiful mark.


very nice!!


----------



## gdluck

Alittle off topic but I think I am goint to try to get thursday and fri off and run up to onaway and watch the show. Ideas what they will be running thurday morn? about how many dogs will be left? 

I haven't taken the time to look but any ideas where I could stay? are all tests on the same property?


----------



## BonMallari

huntinman said:


> If you read back further in this thread, it has been stated that there have been Nat'l finalist and winners with handles. It's all relative.
> 
> Big nasty hunt all over the place and then you decide to handle??? may be too late. Dog just misses the mark, but keeps on going... you hit a quick whistle and put the dog on the bird...smart handling. Both show as handles on the summary, two completely different levels of work.


Have been told by someone on the ground that the blog is "embellishing" a bit or "glossing over a turd", and may be a bit generous on the accolades of the work...and that was just his own dog


----------



## HiRollerlabs

I did a quick review of the last three Nat'l Ams.

2011
1st/2nd series land double and blind
3rd series land blind
4th series triple
5th series water blind
6th series land/water triple
7/8th series double blind
9th series triple, land i think
10th quad, land/water

2010
1/2nd series, double and a blind
3rd series, triple with an out of order flyer
4th series water blind
5th series land water quad with 2 flyers and an honor
6th series land blind
7th series water blind
8th series land quad with 2 flyers
9th series water triple with 2 flyers
10th series water quad with 3 flyers

It was easier to find the info for 2010 because there was a bold-titled recap in the blog. 2011 was more difficult to find and I didn't write down as much info...so don't throw me under the bus if you find something different . Just fix it.

2009
1/2nd series double with a blind
3rd series channel/water blind
4th series land/water triple with an honor and one duck flyer
5th series land quad with 1 duck flyer and 1 rooster flyer
6th series water blind
7th series land blind
8th series water triple with dead ducks and a hen flyer
9th series land triple with all roosters and one rooster flyer
10th series delayed water quad with 2 duck flyers


----------



## kjrice

Originally Posted by *kjrice*  


> *That is obvious *but I wouldn't want my fate in the judges' hands at this point. With that being said, the judges have some work to do, after the last dog.


​


huntinman said:


> If you read back further in this thread, it has been stated that there have been Nat'l finalist and winners with handles. It's all relative.
> 
> *Big nasty hunt all over the place and then you decide to handle??? may be too late. Dog just misses the mark, but keeps on going... you hit a quick whistle and put the dog on the bird...smart handling. Both show as handles on the summary, two completely different levels of work*.


As far as the blog, take it for what it's worth but I won't bet my paycheck on it.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora

BonMallari said:


> Have been told by someone on the ground that the blog is "embellishing" a bit or "glossing over a turd", and may be a bit generous on the accolades of the work...and that was just his own dog


tell him the blog is a "gift, say thank you and walk away" hee hee hee I kill me!!!


----------



## BonMallari

Lynn Moore said:


> Huge storm will put us way behind now, with lots of no birds to make up. Everyone is leaving the trial grounds.


Don't think there is anyone who can read bad weather or potential storms better than Michael,bet he has the Tour sized Gustbuster umbrella too, pulling real hard for your Team this week,stay dry and safe


----------



## labraiser

Too bad Ammo broke, I'm sure we will see that dog in future nationals.


----------



## Warren Flynt

Little girl has an eager heart. Best wishes to team Ammo in the future.


----------



## jeff evans

labraiser said:


> Too bad Ammo broke, I'm sure we will see that dog in future nationals.


Interesting, running against her in the derby I would have never thought breaking would be a problem for her. Then again she has seen alot of fliers in the last week!


----------



## Jeff Huntington

jeff evans said:


> Interesting, running against her in the derby I would have never thought breaking would be a problem for her. Then again she has seen alot of fliers in the last week!


That is surprising, but as my buddy says...they are dogs!


----------



## RF2

jeff evans said:


> Interesting, running against her in the derby I would have never thought breaking would be a problem for her. Then again she has seen alot of fliers in the last week!


Ammo had a controlled break in the Middle TN derby in 2009 where she finished 2nd and we finished 3rd.


----------



## huntinman

RF2 said:


> Ammo had a controlled break in the Middle TN derby in 2009 where she finished 2nd and we finished 3rd.


Yes... in all the derbies she ever ran that was the only one. Never a full break...until now. This one will leave a mark.


----------



## 2tall

Well, if you believe the old saw about all good dogs breaking sometime, at least she has that behind her now! Onward and upward Ammo!


----------



## Eric Fryer

23. FC-AFC WATERDOGS IRON DIVA, LF, John Stracka 

...had a nice flyer, a hunt on the right-hand bird, came back limping so the handler elected to pick her up.

Does anyone know what happened, or how bad the injury is?


----------



## Rick_C

huntinman said:


> Yes... in all the derbies she ever ran that was the only one. Never a full break...until now. This one will leave a mark.


I too was surprised to see Ammo broke. I wonder if the no bird was just too much to overcome today? 

No doubt she'll be back.


----------



## JusticeDog

Eric Fryer said:


> 23. FC-AFC WATERDOGS IRON DIVA, LF, John Stracka
> 
> ...had a nice flyer, a hunt on the right-hand bird, came back limping so the handler elected to pick her up.
> 
> Does anyone know what happened, or how bad the injury is?


Broken toe. Very sad. John was soooo happy to get her there. She's one of the older dogs on Attar's truck, and one of John's first dogs. Diva would spend the super hot days in Andy's office with Honor as opposed to the kennel.


----------



## Darin Westphal

Curiosity question....does anyone know who the youngest competitor is and what his/her age is and also the oldest (ball park ages are fine)? And to take that step further, any idea on avg age of handler?


----------



## savage25xtreme

I think youngest dog is B BUMBLE.

or are you talking about youngest handler?


----------



## Darin Westphal

handlers. I believe they publish the info on the dogs in retriever news or somewhere.


----------



## Lynn Moore

The youngest dog is Fred Kampo's dog #40 not three until September. Oldest is Ken Neil's NFC Windy and then Lance's Eva. Both almost eleven.


----------



## Lynn Moore

Oh my God, no. No one has their age's published. That would not be polite to the ladies.


----------



## Breck

Way to go John Thomas & Cane, sounds like a stellar set of marks!


----------



## Darin Westphal

Lynn Moore said:


> Oh my God, no. No one has their age's published. That would not be polite to the ladies.


thus the ball park  Or..instead of saying John Doe is 80 or Jane Doe is 80...the youngest handler is 30 and the oldest is 80..anything like that is fine to!


----------



## Jerry S.

Darin Westphal said:


> handlers. I believe they publish the info on the dogs in retriever news or somewhere.


Lauren Hays is 32 I believe.


----------



## Cowtown

Watchm said:


> Lauren Hays is 32 I believe.


That was going to be my guess as to the youngest.


----------



## huntinman

Any bets on how many they drop? I'm gonna guess 25 (counting PU's)


----------



## savage25xtreme

I bet they drop 32, just a WAG... They have to get rid of a bunch with this test taking 2 full days.


----------



## huntinman

we were both wrong... they dropped 16.... 93 dogs back to 4th


----------



## FOM

Dogs "dropped": 2, 12, 22, 23, 29, 40, 62, 65, 81, 83, 89, 92, 93, 96, 104, 111


----------



## BonMallari

huntinman said:


> we were both wrong... they dropped 16.... 93 dogs back to 4th


guess they want them to get their money's worth....surprising low number of drops..but as was mentioned by those experienced at this event, looks like it will take two handles to get dropped

is it too late to start the 4th


----------



## Bridget Bodine

sorry Dr Ed....


----------



## huntinman

BonMallari said:


> guess they want them to get their money's worth....surprising low number of drops..but as was mentioned by those experienced at this event, looks like it will take two handles to get dropped
> 
> is it too late to start the 4th


When I put 25, I felt it might be high. Judges don't want a mutiny this early in the trial.


----------



## Ted Shih

Good for the judges! We talked about the National tradition. The judges are walking the walk, not just talking the talk.


----------



## huntinman

30 dogs with a handle still playing... They need to be pretty good from here on out.


----------



## JS

I love it! Make it tough and let 'em play.

That's the way I like it when I run.

JS


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

Tuesday, June 19, 2012

85. FC-AFC WING MAGIC'S LOUISIANA ROUX MH, LM, Frank Price

...did not show for the test.


what will happen here, can he run in the morning or out of order?


----------



## Travis Schneider

Dog 85 no showed for the 4th series blind.


----------



## HarryWilliams

Sounds and looks like a land blind to me. HPW


----------



## Lynn Moore

No, they have to miss a piece, get on the spit and go in and put of two ponds. 200 yards. It's dicey. Swimming not just running water.


----------



## Breck

Oh, OK thank you Lynn.


----------



## John Lash

Anyone have the picture of the setup?


----------



## Rick_C

They are done for the day.

Any news on whether a dog can run out of order?


----------



## Jay Dufour

Hoping its up to the judges,and the cut some slack for him thinking they were done for the day.Hate to see him go out that way.


----------



## Warren Flynt

Jay Dufour said:


> Hoping its up to the judges,and the cut some slack for him thinking they were done for the day.Hate to see him go out that way.


Ditto. That would stink. Bad.


----------



## Ted Shih

Up to Judges *and* Field Trial Committee, Rule Book page 16




> Judges, acting in each instance with the approval of the Field Trial Committee, shall have the power to disqualify any dog which shall not appear within fifteen minutes of the time designated for its turn to be tried.


----------



## savage25xtreme

Frank scratched Roux, from what I have been told.


----------



## Jeff Huntington

savage25xtreme said:


> Frank scratched Roux, from what I have been told.


HoPe roux is ok


----------



## Dman

savage25xtreme said:


> Frank scratched Roux, from what I have been told.


Any news on why?


----------



## savage25xtreme

The word I got was that the knee he had surgery on last year was bothering him.


----------



## Warren Flynt

Dman said:


> Any news on why?


 Reaggrivated ACL? I'm just guessing. Hope it's not true.


----------



## Rick_C

Ted Shih said:


> Up to Judges *and* Field Trial Committee, Rule Book page 16


Thank you!



savage25xtreme said:


> Frank scratched Roux, from what I have been told.


Ugh. Sorry to hear that. Hope nothing too serious and some rest will get him back running again soon.


----------



## Judy Chute

JusticeDog said:


> Broken toe. Very sad. John was soooo happy to get her there. She's one of the older dogs on Attar's truck, and one of John's first dogs. Diva would spend the super hot days in Andy's office with Honor as opposed to the kennel.


Sorry to read this. Do not know John or "Diva", but it has to be kind of a heartbreak. Hope she is back training and trialing soon. 

Judy


----------



## MikeBoley

Roux was sore on his leg. Also he seemed to just not be feeling well. Frank decided after consulting a DVM that it was in Roux's best interest not to continue. Enjoyed the week of training with the brown dog he was training well. Get well soon Roux.


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

MikeBoley said:


> Roux was sore on his leg. Also he seemed to just not be feeling well. Frank decided after consulting a DVM that it was in Roux's best interest not to continue. Enjoyed the week of training with the brown dog he was training well. Get well soon Roux.


A smart decision, still hate to see him go out that way. Hope it's nothing to serious and he's back running soon.

Brad


----------



## huntinman

MikeBoley said:


> Roux was sore on his leg. Also he seemed to just not be feeling well. Frank decided after consulting a DVM that it was in Roux's best interest not to continue. Enjoyed the week of training with the brown dog he was training well. Get well soon Roux.


Way to go Frank and Roux!! You have had a great spring and a great career if this happens to be the end. I know Frank loves that dog and that's why he made the decision he did. What a ride!!!


----------



## Warren Flynt

huntinman said:


> Way to go Frank and Roux!! You have had a great spring and a great career if this happens to be the end. I know Frank loves that dog and that's why he made the decision he did. What a ride!!!


Ditto Frank. Good luck in the future. Would love to see y'all at some HRC events if ya get an opportunity.


----------



## laker

The weather man is calling for 90 degrees today...:-x


----------



## Warren Flynt

Just out of curiosity...

I know we have one Chessie, and (1?) Golden... I take it the rest are labs

But do we have a further breakdown?

How many yellows, chocolates, and blacks?

thanks, 

Warren


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

More Chocolates than I remember recently if not ever, I think there are four, 22, 47, 85, 112. 

Brad


----------



## Jeff Huntington

Warren Flynt said:


> Ditto Frank. Good luck in the future. Would love to see y'all at some HRC events if ya get an opportunity.


Rumor is Roux has been trying to get Frank to let him run the Grand. It'll be in his backyard this fall.

Get well Roux.


----------



## savage25xtreme

First dog in history to be FC/AFC HRCH MH.... ?


----------



## Janet Kimbrough

savage25xtreme said:


> First dog in history to be FC/AFC HRCH MH.... ?



No, there have been a couple:

FC AFC HRCH Gator Pts Sweet Potato Pie (earned one Grand Pass, not sure if she earned her Master Title)
FC AFC MHR HRCH Day's End Hillview Super Sue MH (earned one Grand Pass)
FC AFC Do Wacka Do MH (earned one Grand Pass)

Those are three that I know of.

If Frank and Roux could earn their GRHRCH that would be a first.

Hope Roux feels better soon Frank.

Janet


----------



## Bally's Gun Dogs

Downtown Dusty Brown also has all four titles FC AFC HRCH MH. I am sure others exist too.


----------



## huntinman

JTS said:


> But Super Sue has all five FC-AFC-HRCH-MHR-MH plus Great outdoor games etc.....


Yes...but has she slept in a Holiday Inn Express??


----------



## labraiser

You forgot one of the Best chocolates Dog # 4 FC-AFC REBEL RIDGE'S DEVILS LUCK MH, so there are 5 chocolates


----------



## Breck

Has anyone seen a drawing of the 4th Series Water Blind? I can't seem to find it.


----------



## Darin Westphal

Breck said:


> Has anyone seen a drawing of the 4th Series Water Blind? I can't seem to find it.


I haven't seen one yet either, only the two pictures from the blog. Kinda difficult to really see what the blind entails from those pixs, so I'm hoping a posted diagram would help.


----------



## BonMallari

Breck said:


> Has anyone seen a drawing of the 4th Series Water Blind? I can't seem to find it.


the description of the blind and the lack of reporting anything more that Dog # ___ completed the blind, leaves much to speculation...so much for a far superior blog


----------



## Charles C.

BonMallari said:


> the description of the blind and the lack of reporting anything more that Dog # ___ completed the blind, leaves much to speculation...so much for a far superior blog


From yesterday:



> REPORTERS NOTE:
> 
> It is hard for the News and the gallery to get a decent vantage point on this blind. Our individual reports on the dogs will be minimal compared to the previous tests. We will note when the dog completes the blind and when/if there is something we can see or hear that is significant. Hang in there, we are working on getting you all the info possible.


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*Longer it goes.....deeper the cuts?????

Inquiring Minds Regards,

Aaron*


----------



## huntinman

Darin Westphal said:


> I haven't seen one yet either, only the two pictures from the blog. Kinda difficult to really see what the blind entails from those pixs, so I'm hoping a posted diagram would help.


Really nice pics and description of the previous series from Jerry & Jane Patopea were added to the blog this morning. Made a huge difference for me in my comprehension of what went on during the test to have a description from experience retriever folks. I know the other guys are doing the best they can.


----------



## blindfaith

First of all, I appreciate the work being done by the reporters. For a number of reasons I have looked forward to " following" the NARC this year more than ever before and I've been doing it. I resisted posting, in part at least, because of the tone that many of the comments have taken over the past couple of years. It seems obvious to me at least that some of the posters have a horse in this race. I do not. I don't know Vicki nor do I know the folks doing the reporting this year. That said, I really do believe that the reporting last year was at least as good and probably better than what I have seen so far. I'm watching the Fast and Furious hearings as I write and it occurs to me that saying in advance that you won't be able to do a great job on an entire series doesn't exactly make me feel great. I've watched many trials/tests and know the problems associated with some tests. Also know that if you work at it you can get the info you want or need. Again thanks for the work being done but there's room for improvement and hate to wait for next year. I'm old, who knows....
Bill Butikas


----------



## blindfaith

AMEN to the Patopea contributions!


----------



## FOM

17 dogs "dropped": 11, 13, 15, 19, 21, 24, 35, 46, 47, 48, 53, 54, 67, 84, 85, 87 114


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

labraiser said:


> You forgot one of the Best chocolates Dog # 4 FC-AFC REBEL RIDGE'S DEVILS LUCK MH, so there are 5 chocolates


Wasn't sure if she was ch or not, thanks for correcting it.


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*Interesting cut as they lost 20% of the "clean" dogs. Yes I know there are varying degrees of clean, but by my count 11 of the 18 were "clean" could have had huge hunts, etc... brings in the discussion we have had a ton of times before of what is worse quick clean handle or large hunt..... not being there I am guessing this water blind had some factors that needed to be conquered and some did not do it..... I love the National!!!! Thanks to those keeping the coverage!!!

Boring Day in the Office Regards!!!!

Aaron*


----------



## savage25xtreme

Aaron Homburg said:


> *not being there I am guessing this water blind had some factors that needed to be conquered and some did not do it...
> 
> *


In the blog they stated there was a pair of trees 6 or 7 yards apart that you must go between, unfortunately that makes that area of the blind pretty clean cut.

got to love a keyhole.....


----------



## jeff evans

Aaron Homburg said:


> *Interesting cut as they lost 20% of the "clean" dogs. Yes I know there are varying degrees of clean, but by my count 11 of the 18 were "clean" could have had huge hunts, etc... brings in the discussion we have had a ton of times before of what is worse quick clean handle or large hunt..... not being there I am guessing this water blind had some factors that needed to be conquered and some did not do it..... I love the National!!!! Thanks to those keeping the coverage!!!
> 
> Boring Day in the Office Regards!!!!
> 
> Aaron*


Its refreshing to see folks that know dogs and the book. Bill is a great dog guy and a gentleman!


THE RETRIEVE
28. When ordered to retrieve, a dog should proceed
quickly and eagerly on land or into the water to markedfalls, or on the line given him by his handler on falls hehas not seen. He should not disturb too much ground orarea and should respond quickly and obediently to anyfurther directions his handler might give him. Failure toenter either rough cover, water, ice, mud or any othersituation involving unpleasant or difficult going for thedog, after having been ordered to do so several times, issufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake.


----------



## blindfaith

Hey Jeff,
Didn't the Beach Boys sing about " West coast dogs they really...."..ooops that was West coast girls..what can I say , it's been a long time!
Bill Butikas


----------



## huntinman

22 dogs with a Handle still playing going into the 5th.


----------



## jeff evans

blindfaith said:


> Hey Jeff,
> Didn't the Beach Boys sing about " West coast dogs they really...."..ooops that was West coast girls..what can I say , it's been a long time!
> Bill Butikas


Hey Bill, gotta love those west coast girls, especially the blonde ones! Side note, I trained with Paul a few weeks ago, working puppies...


----------



## Breck

Did they stay at RPM for the 5th series or move down the road?


----------



## Rusty Champion

There is a "traffic notice" on one of the blog posts asking drivers who have a spot in the lot to move their vehicle to the road after they run allowing others to park before they run. I would assume this means they changed locations, but I haven't read for sure or where.


----------



## birdthrower51

Dave & I have returned to the motel (& air conditioning) after watching the first two running dogs. No sense sitting in the heat. The cover is thick & it is hot. There is no water in the test. The first dog had a little hunt on the flyer & it took 8 minutes. I am pretty glad that Thief will run tomorrow where it is predicted to be in the 70's.
Happy to be able to play, yet!


----------



## zipmarc

The description of the triple sounded like a humdinger - until the judges altered it  . Now it's just around the clock with a short middle. At least I think it's still a short middle...


----------



## Rusty Champion

Congrats on making it this far Glenda! Good luck tomorrow!


----------



## HiRollerlabs

They moved to Randy Whitaker's property. My source says line to long and short birds is thru a flowing creek. Judges changed from pheasants to ducks.

Good luck Dave, Glenda, and Thief!!


----------



## dogcommand

Ok you trivia buffs, you have counted the chocolates, now how many yellows are there?


----------



## Dan Wegner

Here's an overhead of Randy's property and my best guess as to the set-up, knowing the property and the description on the blog.
View attachment 7568


----------



## byounglove

There is water in the 5th series on the way to both retired guns!


----------



## Breck

Thanks Barb. Hope it's going well and good luck to you guys up there!


----------



## JKOttman

From what I understand, the RN tent is a long way in back of the mat, as in behind the gallery. As a result, they can't see much of what occurs on the long bird. I imageine they are erring on the side of kindness. So take what's in the blog with a grain of salt.


----------



## Bayou Magic

Just got back from a visit to our local vet with Roux. He located 2 areas of inflammation in joints, one of which was the surgically repaired knee that was done about a year and a half ago. The other area is in the opposite side hip where it appears that some arthritis has developed. Dr Costner thinks that the hip is probably aggravated by Roux compensating for pain in the repaired knee. For now, we have him on Previcox and rest. 

Pulling a dog out of any trial is not easy, especially a nationals. Roux's mediocre performance in the first 3 series made the decision easier simply because the risk versus rewards of continuing just didn't make sense. He was not performing at his peak, and there was clearly something physically wrong with him. 

We'll take it easy through the summer, and re-evaluate in the fall regarding weekend trials. If he trials again, it will be on a very limited basis. His main job over the last 6 to 7 years has been retrieving wild ducks that fell to the gun. God willing, we'll share a duck blind another year or two. 

FC AFC Wing Magic's Louisiana Roux MH doesn't owe me a thing. I owe him a lot.

Best of luck to all that are still competing, especially those in the "amateur" training group!

fp


----------



## Sarge

Thank you for the overhead view of the 5th series.
The property is outstanding.


----------



## blindfaith

Good Luck Frank and Roux. We had a similar experience in the last month and it is difficult. Right now our Roux daughter, Lily, is pregnant and we thank you for the opportunity to have Roux grandpuppies coming soon! I'd love to be in the blind this fall to see Roux work on some birds.
Bill Butikas
Blindfaith Retrievers


----------



## chez29

Bayou Magic said:


> Just got back from a visit to our local vet with Roux. He located 2 areas of inflammation in joints, one of which was the surgically repaired knee that was done about a year and a half ago. The other area is in the opposite side hip where it appears that some arthritis has developed. Dr Costner thinks that the hip is probably aggravated by Roux compensating for pain in the repaired knee. For now, we have him on Previcox and rest.
> 
> Pulling a dog out of any trial is not easy, especially a nationals. Roux's mediocre performance in the first 3 series made the decision easier simply because the risk versus rewards of continuing just didn't make sense. He was not performing at his peak, and there was clearly something physically wrong with him.
> 
> We'll take it easy through the summer, and re-evaluate in the fall regarding weekend trials. If he trials again, it will be on a very limited basis. His main job over the last 6 to 7 years has been retrieving wild ducks that fell to the gun. God willing, we'll share a duck blind another year or two.
> 
> FC AFC Wing Magic's Louisiana Roux MH doesn't owe me a thing. I owe him a lot.
> 
> Best of luck to all that are still competing, especially those in the "amateur" training group!
> 
> fp


Heres to several more years in the duck blind.


----------



## hughest

Bayou Magic said:


> Just got back from a visit to our local vet with Roux. He located 2 areas of inflammation in joints, one of which was the surgically repaired knee that was done about a year and a half ago. The other area is in the opposite side hip where it appears that some arthritis has developed. Dr Costner thinks that the hip is probably aggravated by Roux compensating for pain in the repaired knee. For now, we have him on Previcox and rest.
> 
> Pulling a dog out of any trial is not easy, especially a nationals. Roux's mediocre performance in the first 3 series made the decision easier simply because the risk versus rewards of continuing just didn't make sense. He was not performing at his peak, and there was clearly something physically wrong with him.
> 
> We'll take it easy through the summer, and re-evaluate in the fall regarding weekend trials. If he trials again, it will be on a very limited basis. His main job over the last 6 to 7 years has been retrieving wild ducks that fell to the gun. God willing, we'll share a duck blind another year or two.
> 
> FC AFC Wing Magic's Louisiana Roux MH doesn't owe me a thing. I owe him a lot.
> 
> Best of luck to all that are still competing, especially those in the "amateur" training group!
> 
> fp



Very touching post. All the respect in the world for you and your decision based on your obvious love for Roux. I have a Roux grand-daughter and love her personality! I hope you have many more years with Roux in the duck blind!


----------



## savage25xtreme

Bayou Magic said:


> Just got back from a visit to our local vet with Roux. He located 2 areas of inflammation in joints, one of which was the surgically repaired knee that was done about a year and a half ago. The other area is in the opposite side hip where it appears that some arthritis has developed. Dr Costner thinks that the hip is probably aggravated by Roux compensating for pain in the repaired knee. For now, we have him on Previcox and rest.
> 
> Pulling a dog out of any trial is not easy, especially a nationals. Roux's mediocre performance in the first 3 series made the decision easier simply because the risk versus rewards of continuing just didn't make sense. He was not performing at his peak, and there was clearly something physically wrong with him.
> 
> We'll take it easy through the summer, and re-evaluate in the fall regarding weekend trials. If he trials again, it will be on a very limited basis. His main job over the last 6 to 7 years has been retrieving wild ducks that fell to the gun. God willing, we'll share a duck blind another year or two.
> 
> FC AFC Wing Magic's Louisiana Roux MH doesn't owe me a thing. I owe him a lot.
> 
> Best of luck to all that are still competing, especially those in the "amateur" training group!
> 
> fp


Frank,

You and Roux are an inspiration to many of us! Lets smack some ducks this Fall.


----------



## TBell

Too bad for you and 'Roux'. He has had a great comeback and you have made a hard decision which shows you truly love him.

It is great to keep up with the inside story here on RTF!

BTW, in reading the NARC Blog........what exactly does picking the bird up clean mean???



> ...picked up the flyer and the middle retired clean. For the left-hand retired bird, he took a unique line through the middle of the field, straight in front of the line then went down the back side of the field to pick up the bird clean.​


No hunt maybe even though it ran 'down the backside of the field'?


----------



## zipmarc

The RN team is working diligently to keep the reports going and kudos to them for that. But I really do miss Vickie Lamb's professional vantage point. Sportscasters aren't paid millions for their background in the sport for no reason - what they see and how they report it, is not the same as the average sports fan. _"The handler stands on a mound facing North/northwest."_ Which direction is that relative to the test? Which way is the wind? You mean, there's been no wind throughout the entire 4-1/2 series ? Kimber is a LF, why is _*he*_ doing such a great job? Ditto for Brook....


----------



## DaveHare

You and Roux ,are a class act!!!!!!!!!!
Dave Hare


----------



## Tom Watson

Frank, I hope Roux is better in a few days with rest and NSAIDS. You were living the dream we dream of, glad you chose the health of your buddy.


----------



## Brian Courser

Went and spectated today the water blind not easy to see had a good vantage point to watch the 5th series. It was pretty cool to see


----------



## zipmarc

Photo Of 5th Series Test From Jerry Patopea


----------



## wayne anderson

Glad to see the Patopea pix--hard to visualize the tests from verbal descriptions and pix with little white spots way out there! Also, where is news about next year's Nat. Amat., location, judges, etc.? So far I have not been to find this info on Ret. News blog.


----------



## EdA

wayne anderson said:


> Glad to see the Patopea pix--hard to visualize the tests from verbal descriptions and pix with little white spots way out there! Also, where is news about next year's Nat. Amat., location, judges, etc.? So far I have not been to find this info on Ret. News blog.


Mondovi Wisconsin, judges Lyn Yelton, Ted Shih, Al Wilson


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*Great pic of Wayne and Misty!!! That flyer looks close in the pic......

Aaron*


----------



## savage25xtreme

http://mcs-photography.com/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=5548#image=60517

Awesome pic of Lanse and Rosa


----------



## Rick_C

Wind... 
...is really gusting right now, getting up to and over 20 mph at times, causing all the tents on the grounds to be carefully watched as they may fly away *(even though they are professionally staked down by the grounds crew).*

No offense to the grounds crew but this made me chuckle.


----------



## FOM

<putting on moderator hat>
Guys and gals, please be careful when posting pictures - I know with the new feature on RTF it is tempting, but remember there are copy write laws...we do not need to drag RTF into the middle of any pissing contests with powers that be.

FOM
RTF Moderator


----------



## zipmarc

General rule of thumb is do not copy a professional photographer's work, especially one that's been watermarked ! And from a web page where the photographer is obviously trying to sell the photos for $$$s. Otherwise the Internet is public domain and proper credit should be given if you use someone else's photos.


----------



## FOM

Dogs dropped: 14, 20, 34, 36, 56, 60 and 105

69 dogs back, #31 starts


----------



## Breck

I want to say good going to Alex Abraham for stepping up and handling Craig Stonesifer's dog Krumz #105 through five series at the National. 
As most know Craig and wife Dana were in a traffic accident on the way to Michigan. 
Good going Alex.


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*Ok, so what's the thinking??? Waterblind say it is a quick water blind, 5 minutes x 69 dogs will take rest of the day. Lose 10-15 on water blind, you have 4 marking series left with 50 dogs or so. Will be an interesting few days!!

Pucker factor starting regards,

Aaron*


----------



## Breck

Well, 69 dogs going to the 6th on Thursday afternoon. Should get interesting.


----------



## EdA

Two blinds left unless I missed something while driving, one land and one water, second water blind is sometimes a big one


----------



## Rick_C

Wow. Sure seems like a LOT of dogs left with 4 series to run in 3 days. Blood bath on the horizon?


----------



## Lucky Number Seven

In no way really am I credible enough to be able to comment very scholarly but from what I have read on this thread and following the Blog doesn't it possibly seem that if the 3rd and 5th series were switched there would possibly not be 59% of the dogs remaining going into the 6th? Judging from all the handles in the 3rd and so little issues with the 5th, That would put the judges at maybe a little bit easier of a decision on drops after the 5th seeing that all but one dog that handled in the 5th got dropped (granted some had 2 handles total in all series combined making that decision easier). But with only dropping 7 in the 5th leaves a lot of dogs left with 5 series left and most likely a blind on the 6th making it somewhat interesting coming up. Just my thoughts in a complete naive non-threatening to the judges or anyone else sort of way but overall just curious as to others thoughts on this. Just love watching this all unfold in the blog and people like Mr. Boley and Dr. Ed commenting with first hand accounts.


----------



## BonMallari

Rick_C said:


> Wow. Sure seems like a LOT of dogs left with 4 series to run in 3 days. Blood bath on the horizon?


check your math they are just starting the Sixth...more like 5 series in 2.5 days....are we headed for a Sunday finish


----------



## Doug Main

I would say the dogs won that round. I commend them on not penciling out a bunch of dogs. 

However, they have significantly more dogs going into the 6th series than in years past and time is the factor. 

I'm guessing the judges will win the next round.


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> check your math they are just starting the Sixth...more like 5 series in 2.5 days....are we headed for a Sunday finish


When was the last time we had a Sunday finish? I bet they'll have a massacre pretty soon and all of a sudden there will only be a dozen left. Jerry thinks the 6th should see some separation - he likes that blind.


----------



## EdA

Big waterblind with poison bird next, anyone with a hickey better be good


----------



## Angie B

In my limited experience of working national opens,,,, it seems that the "nut cutting" happens after the 5th series.

Angie


----------



## Rick_C

BonMallari said:


> check your math they are just starting the Sixth...more like 5 series in 2.5 days....are we headed for a Sunday finish


Yeah, I wasn't counting the 6th because that's where they're going....up too early this morning I guess 



EdA said:


> Big waterblind with poison bird next, anyone with a hickey better be good


Ha. Great way of putting it.


----------



## mohaled

Angie B said:


> In my limited experience of working national opens,,,, it seems that the "nut cutting" happens after the 5th series.
> 
> Angie


.....OUch!


----------



## JS

I would think the judges will be taking a hard look at the 3rd series work when making the next callbacks. That's where it appears they got their answers.

JS


----------



## Breck

Um? Blog translation? Did the first and second dogs both line it?


----------



## zipmarc

Breck said:


> Um? Blog translation? Did the first and second dogs both line it?



And while you're translating that, please square me away on "hitting every factor". May the dog that hits every factor win the National?


----------



## Rick_C

zipmarc said:


> And while you're translating that, please square me away on "hitting every factor". May the dog that hits every factor win the National?


Or ...."from the time the dog entered the second piece of water, she executed every challenge perfectly."

Translation??? Lined it from there? Took every cast? Took 6 casts but held a great line? Beats me.

Like I said, other than "pick up", handle (on a mark), no bird, "got lost" etc... the rest of the descriptions are useless.


----------



## BonMallari

compare these descriptions...is it just me or is there a bit of a bias toward the description of certain dogs/handlers




> 43. FC-AFC CITORI’S ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTE, LF, Michael Moore
> 
> ...has just turned in an excellent performance on the water blind. She was on both points, handled quickly back into the water both times. And has done well.





> 44. AFC KIMBER VIII, LF, Gary Zellner
> 
> ...from the time the dog entered the second piece of water, she executed every challenge perfectly.



and then to this.....WTH does the writer not think a female dog can have speed and power too...



> 52. NAFC-FC CODY CUT A LEAN GRADE, LM, Chad Baker
> 
> ...went to the line at 1:48 p.m. *With both speed and power,* he carried his initial line across the first piece of water, the strip of land, the cove and to the middle of the first point.* He powered* his way off of the second point and had an excellent ending.


----------



## Guest

If you go back and look at prior series, you'll see the same preferential reports for Chad and Grady. (BTW, that is no way intended to be a knock against that dog/handler team.)


----------



## Dan Wegner

An overhead rendition of the 6th series waterblind. I'm not there, but have trained at Randy's and did this based on the blog description and photos:
View attachment 7590


----------



## Eric Fryer

BonMallari said:


> compare these descriptions...is it just me or is there a bit of a bias toward the description of certain dogs/handlers
> 
> and then to this.....WTH does the writer not think a female dog can have speed and power too...


While you are translating Bon, explain this...
"This is a no-see-um entry. When released the dogs climb and cross the ridge, go down into the first piece of water. They swim the water and up and over a wide stretch of flat ground that separates the first pond from the second. They enter the second piece of water at the bottom end in a cove on the left-hand side. They swim across a small cove, are handled on to a wide flat point. They run this point until they are past the poison bird gunners on the opposite shore. They must then cast back into the lake..."

How long are the dogs out of site? This description makes it sound like they are out of site until they are nearly at the poison bird and gunners. That cant possibly be the case can it?


----------



## TroyFeeken

Eric Fryer said:


> While you are translating Bon, explain this...
> "This is a no-see-um entry. When released the dogs climb and cross the ridge, go down into the first piece of water. They swim the water and up and over a wide stretch of flat ground that separates the first pond from the second. They enter the second piece of water at the bottom end in a cove on the left-hand side. They swim across a small cove, are handled on to a wide flat point. They run this point until they are past the poison bird gunners on the opposite shore. They must then cast back into the lake..."
> 
> How long are the dogs out of site? This description makes it sound like they are out of site until they are nearly at the poison bird and gunners. That cant possibly be the case can it?


I'm sure that after the dog clears the ridge the handler can move to the top of the ridge.


----------



## BonMallari

Eric Fryer said:


> While you are translating Bon, explain this...
> "This is a no-see-um entry. When released the dogs climb and cross the ridge, go down into the first piece of water. They swim the water and up and over a wide stretch of flat ground that separates the first pond from the second. They enter the second piece of water at the bottom end in a cove on the left-hand side. They swim across a small cove, are handled on to a wide flat point. They run this point until they are past the poison bird gunners on the opposite shore. They must then cast back into the lake..."
> 
> 
> 
> How long are the dogs out of site? This description makes it sound like they are out of site until they are nearly at the poison bird and gunners. That cant possibly be the case can it?



you are asking me for a translation...I am asking the same thing, I got Ted M. asking me for a description and he is talking to Patopea for an explanation...I have no idea, and am beginning to think the blog writer doesnt either...beginning to miss Vickie even more...she shot it straight and didnt mince words or hide her feelings (much)


----------



## JS

Dan Wegner said:


> An overhead rendition of the 6th series waterblind. I'm not there, but have trained at Randy's and did this based on the blog description and photos:
> View attachment 7590


That is an awesome looking blind!!!

These overhead shots add the best perspective to these tests. Thanks, Dan. (except, from the description, I thought the scented point is the one on the right further down the channel past the gunners.)

JS


----------



## zipmarc

> 43. FC-AFC CITORI’S ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTE, LF, Michael Moore
> 
> ...has just turned in an excellent performance on the water blind. She was on both points, handled quickly back into the water both times. And has done well.





> 44. AFC KIMBER VIII, LF, Gary Zellner
> 
> ...from the time the dog entered the second piece of water, she executed every challenge perfectly.





BonMallari said:


> compare these descriptions...is it just me or is there a bit of a bias toward the description of certain dogs/handlers
> 
> and then to this.....WTH does the writer not think a female dog can have speed and power too...
> 
> 52. NAFC-FC CODY CUT A LEAN GRADE, LM, Chad Baker
> 
> ...went to the line at 1:48 p.m. *With both speed and power,* he carried his initial line across the first piece of water, the strip of land, the cove and to the middle of the first point.* He powered* his way off of the second point and had an excellent ending.


None of my comments has been published  - but I had to write in twice to point out to them that Brook and Kimber are both females, before they stopped referring to them as males. Speaking of comments, I haven't seen too many


----------



## Rusty Champion

If I'm reading the writing on the sketch correctly it shows the point Dan has listed as the scented point.


----------



## JS

> This is a no-see-um entry. When released the dogs climb and cross the ridge, go down into the first piece of water. They swim the water and up and over a wide stretch of flat ground that separates the first pond from the second. They enter the second piece of water at the bottom end in a cove on the left-hand side. They swim across a small cove, are handled on to a wide flat point. *They run this point until they are past the poison bird gunners* on the opposite shore. They must then cast back into the lake, continue their forward progress as they cross the lake at a narrow spot, *get on a point on the right-hand side that has been scented*, cross that point, re-enter the lake and swim to a small bush that is approximately 230 yards from the line to the bird.


This is what I read in the RN blog description.

Who knows? But this one makes more sense.

JS


----------



## Breck

Scenting a point on the same side as the poison bird does not make sense because you can fight both with one cast.
The color drawing shows the 1st point being scented which forces you to cast towards the poison bird.
Maybe the drawing doesn't show the blind being run, I don't know.
Everything considered looks to be a fairly vanilla blind.


----------



## Rusty Champion

Wow, I didn't read that... That description would lead me to believe, as you do, that the scented point is the second point on the right hand side.


----------



## Dan Wegner

From this blog post, it sounds like BOTH points are scented.

73. FC-AFC PREMIER'S RIPTIDE, LM, Bev Busler

...came to the line at 3:15 P.M. After working his way across the second point, he refused to get back into the water after the second scented point and worked the bank back to the blind.


----------



## Doug Main

Dan Wegner said:


> From this blog post, it sounds like BOTH points are scented.
> 
> 73. FC-AFC PREMIER'S RIPTIDE, LM, Bev Busler
> 
> ...came to the line at 3:15 P.M. After working his way across the second point, he refused to get back into the water after the second scented point and worked the bank back to the blind.


It very well could be both points scented. But the 2nd point that they are not getting back into the water appears to be the one on the right by the poison bird.

The picture posted of Linda was giving a left over, Sweet wouldn't get back in the water off the point. You wouldn't think many would have trouble casting toward the poison bird from the point on the left.


----------



## Breck

Workers Party pics added to blog if you go back one page.


----------



## Stephen Whitley

"She had a nice front end..." I wonder if the rear end was as nice as the front.


----------



## truka

Stephen Whitley said:


> "She had a nice front end..." I wonder if the rear end was as nice as the front.


Where's the like button?
trudie


----------



## ErinsEdge

Dan Wegner said:


> From this blog post, it sounds like BOTH points are scented.
> 
> 73. FC-AFC PREMIER'S RIPTIDE, LM, Bev Busler
> 
> ...came to the line at 3:15 P.M. After working his way across the second point, he refused to get back into the water after the second scented point and worked the bank back to the blind.


I read that too and maybe they meant to say _after the second point that was scented_? The initial explanation only says the last point was scented.


----------



## Paul Brown

Can anyone tell me if the dogs are out of sight on the initial send? And if so, for how long?


----------



## BBnumber1

> *82. FC-AFC EVA ETHYL PROBY-WEBER, LF, Alanson C. Brown III*
> 
> 
> 
> ...came to the line at 4:08* after both points had been freshly re-scented*. He took two whistles to get to the main body of water and two additional whistles to get off of the first blind. He had some problems at the second point with the fresh scent holding the dog and using 7-8 whistles to get back in the water. He finished the blind nicely.


I think both points are scented.


----------



## Doug Main

Paul Brown said:


> Can anyone tell me if the dogs are out of sight on the initial send? And if so, for how long?


I don't really think so. At leas not for most handlers and not very long. There is about a 5 ft high "ridge" or mound that they send the dogs from behind. I think most handlers can see over it. The dogs just can't get the picture.


----------



## Breck

Sounds like after the fresh re-scenting of points dogs are having trouble. But the blogs says the last dog that ran after a re-scent didn't get fully up on the point.


----------



## Dave Burton

Just a couple thoughts. I'm sure(maybe not) someone has won it back to back but has anyone won back to back with different dogs? How about Sire and pup back to back? Chad is still in with Grady and Trav. Long way to go still but always a possibility. I really don't have a favorite but I think it would be awesome if a pup from last yrs winner won. Chad would probably like that too I'm guessing!


----------



## Doug Main

What's the odds? Are they going to be able to finish this test tonight?


----------



## savage25xtreme

should finish up about 8:15 local time...

Edit: Make that 9:15 their time, with a sunset of 9:29


----------



## Ted Shih

Breck said:


> Sounds like after the fresh re-scenting of points dogs are having trouble. But the blogs says the last dog that ran after a re-scent didn't get fully up on the point.


Dog scent is as - if not more - powerful as bird scent. With as many dogs as tthey are running, at some point re-scenting as almost irrelevant


----------



## Guest

Ted Shih said:


> Dog scent is as - if not more - powerful as bird scent. With as many dogs as tthey are running, at some point re-scenting as almost irrelevant


Not only that, but at some point there is such a strong scent cone from past re-scenting vs fresh scent that the former can be as alluring if not more than the latter.


----------



## Breck

Ted Shih said:


> Dog scent is as - if not more - powerful as bird scent. With as many dogs as tthey are running, at some point re-scenting as almost irrelevant


I hear ya but I don't know Ted. I'm pretty sure dogs won't give you the finger casting out of dog scent like they will sitting on top of a point Baptisted heavily with bird scent. Plus they've got the people scented boot path from the guy walking all over the point.
I hope everyone running gets the cast they need to get out of there.


----------



## Ted Shih

Breck said:


> I hear ya but I don't know Ted. I'm pretty sure dogs won't give you the finger casting out of dog scent like they will sitting on top of a point Baptisted heavily with bird scent. Plus they've got the people scented boot path from the guy walking all over the point.
> I hope everyone running gets the cast they need to get out of there.



It has been my experience that if you scent a point by having a wet dog run back and forth across it, that scent can be more powerful than bird scent. But, I think it eliminates some concerns about fairness by scenting on a regular basis. I am just not a big believer in re-scenting because of the power of dog scent


----------



## Wade Thurman

Ted Shih said:


> It has been my experience that if you scent a point by having a wet dog run back and forth across it, that scent can be more powerful than bird scent. But, I think it eliminates some concerns about fairness by scenting on a regular basis. I am just not a big believer in re-scenting because of the power of dog scent


So do you re-scent a point or no?


----------



## Breck

Well, scent or no scent Dave had some stones letting her ride over the 2nd point without a handle. Good going!


----------



## bfarmer

Breck said:


> Well, scent or no scent Dave had some stones letting her ride over the 2nd point without a handle. Good going!


I agree! Would love to have made that decision and it pay off! Sweet feeling!
Bobby


----------



## Ted Shih

Breck said:


> Well, scent or no scent Dave had some stones letting her ride over the 2nd point without a handle. Good going!


I don't know dog or handler, but I would say silly. You get the cast, you go to the next series. That blind will not win you the Field Trial. You miss it, you are out. It is only a whistle, nothing more.


----------



## Wade Thurman

Ted Shih said:


> I don't know dog or handler, but I would say silly. You get the cast, you go to the next series. That blind will not win you the Field Trial. You miss it, you are out. It is only a whistle, nothing more.


+1, 

Knowing your dog is one thing and how you train but 100% in agreement with Ted.


----------



## Charles C.

Ted Shih said:


> I don't know dog or handler, but I would say silly. You get the cast, you go to the next series. That blind will not win you the Field Trial. You miss it, you are out. It is only a whistle, nothing more.


What you said.


----------



## Ted Shih

Ted Shih said:


> I don't know dog or handler, but I would say silly. You get the cast, you go to the next series. That blind will not win you the Field Trial. You miss it, you are out. It is only a whistle, nothing more.



I should also say that I have learned this lesson the hard way.


----------



## JS

Breck said:


> Well, scent or no scent Dave had some stones letting her ride over the 2nd point without a handle. Good going!


You know John Wayne is dead, right? 

JS


----------



## MikeBoley

Both points heavily scented. Second point more heavily scented if you get out early. Dogs only out of site till you walk forward. Very good blind. May not be getting as many answers as the judges would like.


----------



## huntinman

Only the handler knows his dog. Maybe he has problems if he stops it near a lot of scent?? Maybe he liked it's momentum... Anyway, always easier to handle from the gallery.


----------



## tshuntin

Anyone know what happened for Mickey to scratch? Hope is is OK.


----------



## Robert E

Over / Under Callbacks to the 7th ?


----------



## Lynn Moore

Doug Main said:


> I don't really think so. At leas not for most handlers and not very long. There is about a 5 ft high "ridge" or mound that they send the dogs from behind. I think most handlers can see over it. The dogs just can't get the picture.[/QUOTE
> 
> This is correct. The blog is not accurate about whistles, and they do not really matter here. Very difficult blind. These judges are doing an excellent job carrying dogs, letting them take themselves out, and NOT panicking. Really intense and confusing blind FOR THE DOGS. They do not understand why they are coming up to see the no bird, and then going back to a place where THEY cannot see. Many are swimming very slowly in the first piece of water. It is such a good blind because one needs to gain control quickly as the dogs are pulled toward the poison bird. Handlers have to handle AWAY from it which is also awy from the most difficult part of the blind, that last point. Handlers need to be very proactive. Lots of failures. Judges in control.


----------



## Robert E

My guess no more than 50 to 7th.


----------



## Breck

Right Lynn, unusual start. I can't recall ever running a blind where you throw a PD then heel back to a no-see-um send. Pretty creative.

For tomorrow this is where the Buffalo Ranch is on the map. All land.
45°26'39.76"N, 84°26'45.35"W


----------



## Robert E

Land Quad followed by Land Blind or vice versa ?


----------



## Lynn Moore

We are going to the big land quad, finally.....and do not be surprised by the callbacks. The blog hasn't reported accurately and these judges are really doing an excellent job in being fair to all the dogs. Fail the blind, fail the blind. By the way, that was not a "lake", it was a technical pond.


----------



## byounglove

It was an excellent water blind with factors from the beginning to end. There were many dogs that did not re-enter the water after the last point. You could see your dog the entire way to the blind. Last dog finished at 8pm. They will do a land quad and land blind tomorrow at the "Buffalo Ranch".


----------



## jenbrowndvm

Called Back: 48

Callbacks:
7, 8, 9, 10, 16, 17, 25, 26, 27, 28, 32, 39, 43, 44, 49, 50, 52, 55, 57, 59, 63, 64, 66, 69, 70, 71, 74, 75, 76, 77, 80, 86, 88, 90, 91, 94, 95, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 109, 112, 113 and 116


----------



## FOM

20 Dogs dropped: 3, 4, 5, 18, 30 38, 41, 42, 45, 58, 61, 72, 73, 78, 82, 106, 107, 108, 110, 115


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

31. FC-AFC DIXIE CITY JAM II, LM, Bill Goldstein

...came to the line at 12:38 to start the 6th Series. He did a good job of entering the first piece of water, crossed the land, back into the second piece of water and on to the first point. He ran down that point until he was past the poison bird gunners on the opposite shore and reentered the water. He swam to the second point on the far right shore and did an excellent job of getting on and off. He then swam directly to the area of the bird and was tweeted back to it. Nice job...this test took 5 minutes.


He didn't get called back?

grains of salt regards,
Brad


----------



## zipmarc

Those in the know were saying that the RN crew was advised to write only flattering descriptions about the work and let the Internet judges ... [you can fill in the blank here yourself]


----------



## Rick_C

zipmarc said:


> Those in the know were saying that the RN crew was advised to write only flattering descriptions about the work and let the Internet judges ... [you can fill in the blank here yourself]


To what end? That's too bad since all it ultimately does is lose credibility for the blog reporting to read "Nice job" and the dog gets dropped.


----------



## Guest

zipmarc said:


> Those in the know were saying that the RN crew was advised to write only flattering descriptions about the work and let the Internet judges ... [you can fill in the blank here yourself]


That sounds like a good marketing approach to gain new paying customers. The "be ambiguous and vague" model.


----------



## Beverly Burns

There have been 6 series and quite possibly a "ding" or two in each series might add up to elimination. Maybe?


----------



## captainjack

Beverly Burns said:


> There have been 6 series and quite possibly a "ding" or two in each series might add up to elimination. Maybe?


I thought the same thing. So I went back and read the prior series posts for the dog.


----------



## EdA

The coverage is based on editorial policy as was the decision for the blog comments to be anonymous. If you are a Retriever News subscriber and you are unhappy with the coverage you should address those issues with the Editor. The people in the field are just doing their job in accordance with editorial policy and considering all factors an appropriate one I think.


----------



## Ted Shih

7th series inline quad. Two mmiddle birds retired. Long flyer shot last. Said to look very very hard


----------



## huntinman

EdA said:


> The coverage is based on editorial policy as was the decision for the blog comments to be anonymous. If you are a Retriever News subscriber and you are unhappy with the coverage you should address those issues with the Editor. The people in the field are just doing their job in accordance with editorial policy and considering all factors an appropriate one I think.


Not the type of reporting most Americans are used to. This is 2012


----------



## 2tall

*RN fits the biz model!*



huntinman said:


> Not the type of reporting most Americans are used to. This is 2012


Bill, I beg to differ! This is modern journalism at its penultimate. Editorial policy is entertainment and appeasement. Have you read a local paper or watched a 6:00 news program lately?


----------



## Eric Fryer

Sounds like a beast of a test. Also sounds like Grady did it clean.... but who knows at this point??


----------



## huntinman

2tall said:


> Bill, I beg to differ! This is modern journalism at its penultimate. Editorial policy is entertainment and appeasement. Have you read a local paper or watched a 6:00 news program lately?


I agree with you regarding the networks. Thats why the internet and all it's forms of alternative reporting have taken off in the last few years... We can find out what going on in the middle east in real time through Twitter, but we have no clue what's really happening at the Nat'l other than some generic report?


----------



## paul young

the configuration alone would make it very difficult. good bird placement, which i am sure was figured into the test, would really increase the difficulty. at this point, they are down to the very best markers of the field. probably this is just the right kind of test to set up the final 3 series.-Paul


----------



## Cowtown

2tall said:


> Bill, I beg to differ! This is modern journalism at its penultimate. Editorial policy is entertainment and appeasement. Have you read a local paper or watched a 6:00 news program lately?


Possibly so but a live reporter covering an event SHOULD report factual and true information. If it's not factual then as Ted says it loses credibility and thus there is no need to follow the blog...only wait for callbacks since nothing can be deciphered from the blog at all.


----------



## FOM

I just got informed that 31 is back, there was a mistake...


----------



## Dan Wegner

Okay... Once again, I won't be up there until later this evening, but have seen trials run in the valley they are talking about. Given only the description on the blog, I've tried to give an overhead version of what it probably looks like. I didn't have any distances or wind direction to go with, so take it for what it is.

I know it has to be somewhat tight, as I've seen Open triples here that were tight. This valley is tough for the dogs with lots of points of cover and hillside along the entire East side to suck them in. Choose the wrong point of cover to hunt and you might be done. Two middle retired guns in this area and a long flyer past them is likely to provide all the answers the judges need.
View attachment 7608


*Note:* I labeled the guns in the order they are thrown, whereas the Retriever News crew refers to the closest gun as bird #1, even though it is thrown 3rd. They have now added a photo from the line and labeled the guns as I did (order down). I'm still not sure which bird the dog is picking up when they refer to bird #1 or #3 though. Little confusing.

Keep in mind that the Google Maps overhead is probably a few years old, so trees and cover may be in places now that they weren't when the photos were taken.


----------



## ReedCreek

What.....

"Test 7 is a land quad with two retired. The test is situated in a long valley with the mat on the northwest rim and the four marks are down the eastern side of the valley. Bird #1 is slightly in front of the mat on the top of the opposite ridge, throwing flat, left to right. This set of guns are in heavy cover and do not retire, but when they sit down, only their heads show.

Bird #2 is farther down the valley, approximately the same distance at the top of the ridge as bird one also throwing left to right and they retire behind a tree.

Bird #3 is farther down the valley, the bird is thrown left to right and they retire into a clump of trees.
The fourth set of guns is the flyer station at the opposite end of the valley from the mat. They also shoot from left to right. 

The order for the test is bird 3, 2, 1, and then the flyer.

The test is taking about 10-12 minutes per dog.

The test has been altered many times, distances will be provided when available.

Test dog MS Micro Doodle Dandy, LM, Tom Bogusky, came to the line at 8:03 a.m. She picked the birds up: flyer, bird 2, bird 1, and then bird 3. She had a handle on bird 3. She fell in a rough spot in the valley which was quickly addressed by the grounds committee as soon as the dog completed her run.

Test dog FC Ranger's Black Bart, LM, Marsha McGee, came to the line at 8:31 a.m. He had a fall going for the flyer first, and had to be handle. He then picked up bird 1, bird 2 and bird 3 clean...in that order. The grounds committee went back out with a shovel and four-wheelers checking for any further dips. Once it was deemed safe, our first running dog, #52, came to the line at 8:38 a.m."

How can the first dog to run follow that without another test dog....cover and grounds had to be disrupted. BUT the good news as I understand it is that Grady did indeed "step up to the plate" and did a nice job! I am amazed by that boy!


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*I appreciate any reporting we get, I for one see my dogs work through rose colored glasses so why not see the national as the same  I have many folks there I consider friends and I am happy that I don't have to "blow their phone up" to get reporting on their dogs!! I want them to be able to concentrate on the National! Some day I hope to be there and not live through their experiences but until then, bring on the rose colored glasses!!

Good Luck Regards,

Aaron*


----------



## EdA

huntinman said:


> Not the type of reporting most Americans are used to. This is 2012


This is not life, death, or politics, no sensational or salacious activity, no Fox News or CNN, just a great big field trial that only a handful of people are interested in.


----------



## rsfavor

I appreciate any coverage but could they make it any more confusing? The descriptions of birds 1,2 and 3 are vague and then we are told that bird 3 is thrown first and bird 1 is thrown third. So when dog A picks up bird 1, is it the left hand bird or the right middle retired? I know, it's decipherable, but confusing none the less. At least there aren't any pictures!


----------



## Ted Shih

Cowtown said:


> Possibly so but a live reporter covering an event SHOULD report factual and true information. If it's not factual then as Ted says it loses credibility and thus there is no need to follow the blog...only wait for callbacks since nothing can be deciphered from the blog at all.



I think you have confused me with someone else. 

Although we all would like to know the real skinny, even when Vickie was posting, the truth was shaded somewhat to protect the feelings of the contestants. Trust me, I have blown up plenty at Nationals, and left the line feeling like garbage, reading about my failures on the blog was not especially fun. So, I understand the optimism in the reporting. 

In addition, you need to remember that the Retriever News is owned by the National Retriever Club and the National Amateur Retriever Club. So expecting brutally candid reporting, although understandable, is naive.


----------



## savage25xtreme

Sorry Mr. Boley 

I was sure pulling for you.


----------



## Bally's Gun Dogs

Guessing 74 was the pick up per the call backs page??


----------



## JKOttman

Yup i think they just hadn't changed the headlin before they published.


----------



## Cowtown

Ted Shih said:


> I think you have confused me with someone else.
> 
> Although we all would like to know the real skinny, even when Vickie was posting, the truth was shaded somewhat to protect the feelings of the contestants. Trust me, I have blown up plenty at Nationals, and left the line feeling like garbage, reading about my failures on the blog was not especially fun. So, I understand the optimism in the reporting.
> 
> In addition, you need to remember that the Retriever News is owned by the National Retriever Club and the National Amateur Retriever Club. So expecting brutally candid reporting, although understandable, is naive.


You are correct, I apologize. It was Rick C who used the "loses credibility" phrase. (and I agree)

I don't expect brutally candid reporting...just honest and factual.


----------



## zipmarc

Reporting should be at least factual, and if not based on direct observation, source should be mentioned. For example, if the reporter stated she couldn't see the blind from her vantage point, then started reporting on each and every individual dog work (clean, excellent, within the corridor and words to that effect), what was the source of her professional opinions ?


----------



## TroyFeeken

Oh boy, lots of pick ups right in a row.


----------



## FOM

13 dogs run so far - 5 pick ups, 3 handles (1 being their second handle)...ouch.


----------



## Dan Wegner

Wow! 3 pick-ups in a row with dogs 74, 75 and 76. 

Wonder if the wind picked-up, died, direction changed, sun went behind a cloud making birds harder to see??? Would be nice to get a little more perspective from the reporters... doesn't even involve commenting on individual dogs performances.


----------



## JS

I'm guessing there will be plenty pickups or handles to keep dogs from switching or ROF.
Looks very tight.
JS


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

FOM said:


> I just got informed that 31 is back, there was a mistake...


Good, glad to hear that for Bill and Streak. That stinks at a weekend trial, much less the national.

Thanks for the update.

Brad


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

savage25xtreme said:


> Sorry Mr. Boley
> 
> I was sure pulling for you.


I was to, I don't know him, but have enjoyed watching his run, and seeing his comments, great job getting this far.

Brad


----------



## Brent McDowell

It's probably going to get harder as the sun gets higher.


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

Dan Wegner said:


> Wow! 3 pick-ups in a row with dogs 74, 75 and 76.
> 
> Wonder if the wind picked-up, died, direction changed, sun went behind a cloud making birds harder to see??? Would be nice to get a little more perspective from the reporters... doesn't even involve commenting on individual dogs performances.


They've added distances to the picture with the guns now, the flyer is 322 yards.


This will separate the pack.


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*Looks like a fun one!!!

Aaron*


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*Secondary selection, way to go Wayne!! If it is like a weekend trial, others will be trying to secondary select now.

Aaron*


----------



## choch2odog

Can you say tight. I went back to the overhead picture on pg. 33 and layed a protractor on it. Thats 4 birds in 40 degrees!


----------



## Breck

Sure looks tight. Don't know.
Anyone know the ~yardage between each fall area and the next holding blind and/or throwers spot?


----------



## JS

choch2odog said:


> Can you say tight. I went back to the overhead picture on pg. 33 and layed a protractor on it. Thats 4 birds in 40 degrees!


I thought so too, but if you look at the shot of the field from the gallery (between dog #76 & #77 in the blog), you can see the handler and it looks like the mat is further out in the field to the right than in Dan's overhead. That opens it up some ... looks like the left hand gun is nearly straight across the valley.

JS


----------



## RetrieversONLINE

Aaron Homburg said:


> *Secondary selection, way to go Wayne!! If it is like a weekend trial, others will be trying to secondary select now.
> 
> Aaron*



??????? You mean Primary Selection don't you? Up until now it seems most have been doing secondary selection. That is selecting No 1., the next shortest bird after the flyer as go-bird. But I agree others may well start to try selecting off that "looong" flyer esecially if not seen well.

Inline triples are tough enough but tight inline quad on terrain and with cover with long flyer-WOW!


----------



## Charles C.

Aaron Homburg said:


> *Secondary selection, way to go Wayne!! If it is like a weekend trial, others will be trying to secondary select now.
> 
> Aaron*


Wouldn't that be primary selection?


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

two no-birds for 88, man that's tough luck. Hope he gets the birds and does well on the re-run


----------



## Howard N

RetrieversONLINE said:


> ??????? You mean Primary Selection don't you? Up until now it seems most have been doing secondary selection. That is selecting No 1., the next shortest bird after the flyer as go-bird. But I agree others may well start to try selecting off that "looong" flyer esecially if not seen well.
> 
> Inline triples are tough enough but tight inline quad on terrain and with cover with long flyer-WOW!


We need a common jargon in this game.

Inline double regards,


----------



## paul young

FOM said:


> 13 dogs run so far - 5 pick ups, 3 handles (1 being their second handle)...ouch.


This is pretty much what i expected, given the test decription. 

As Dennis has pointed out, primary selection may be a help with the 2 retireds. If you can get the short and next most short birds in good shape, you have 2 shots at the longer retired. if you can pull that one out on the first send, you just pray your dog will take a good line to the flyer, even though it will have to run down the road a long way. Most are not comfortable doing that.-Paul


----------



## Jim Scarborough

Charles C. said:


> Wouldn't that be primary selection?


That sure would be primary selection, and by one of the smartest dogs I've ever been around. I've had the privilege of throwing birds for this 9 1/2-year-old girl about four days a week for the past four years, and she would be a great sentimental pick in this National. She probably has the worst set of wheels in this horse race, and the biggest heart. Add that to the fact that she is totally amateur trained by a man who gives back to this sport with both hands. She's still a dark-horse longshot, but I know who my sentimental favorite is. Go Misty. Go Wayne.


----------



## Rick_C

Cowtown said:


> You are correct, I apologize. It was Rick C who used the "loses credibility" phrase. (and I agree)
> 
> I don't expect brutally candid reporting...just honest and factual.


Beat me to it before I could 'fess up to the comment.



zipmarc said:


> Reporting should be at least factual, and if not based on direct observation, source should be mentioned. For example, if the reporter stated she couldn't see the blind from her vantage point, then started reporting on each and every individual dog work (clean, excellent, within the corridor and words to that effect), what was the source of her professional opinions ?


This is exactly what I mean by losing credibility. Yes, very few people in the population at large care or even know about the National Amateur, but those of us that do, know enough to know when we're reading inaccurate reports. Many of us are subscribers to the Retriever News. I would expect them to serve their customers (knowledgeable dog people) by providing accurate information. Vicki had a way of telling her readers what was going on while being sensitive to the dog and handler involved. That ability comes form talent but also experience. In the dog games and especially at National events. 

Someone mentioned voicing your displeasure to the editor or the RN. By coincidence or not, my renewal invoice arrived in the mail yesterday...


----------



## zipmarc

> Originally Posted by *RetrieversONLINE*  ??????? You mean Primary Selection don't you? Up until now it seems most have been doing secondary selection. That is selecting No 1., the next shortest bird after the flyer as go-bird. But I agree others may well start to try selecting off that "looong" flyer esecially if not seen well.
> 
> Inline triples are tough enough but tight inline quad on terrain and with cover with long flyer-WOW!





Howard N said:


> We need a common jargon in this game.
> 
> Inline double regards,



Yep. We need to define selection. Then what's primary and what's secondary. These words are being applied every which way. Rex Carr must be rolling over in his grave.


----------



## shawninthesticks

Just for my knowledge what are the factors in this test ,I understand the tight in-line setup and the quad but those are big factors that stand out to my rookie eyes see. What else are contributing factors as to the toughness of the test? I am looking at the pic on the blog right below;TEST DOG LAND QUAD WITH TWO RETIRED.
Just looking for knowledge not trying to degrade the test as if it doesnt seem difficult.


----------



## RetrieversONLINE

zipmarc said:


> Yep. We need to define selection. Then what's primary and what's secondary. These words are being applied every which way. Rex Carr must be rolling over in his grave.


I am using it the way that Rex did!


----------



## Rick_C

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I am using it the way that Rex did!


Which was? (For those of us who don't know)


----------



## Aaron Homburg

*Yes, I meant Primary  sorry for the confusion.

Too Many Selection Regards,

Aaron*


----------



## Rick_C

This is a series I wish I could be there to see. Sounds like there are many different strategies on the order of pick up. Watching each handler choose how to pick up the birds and watching how that affects the dogs is fascinating to me.


----------



## RetrieversONLINE

Shawn White said:


> Just for my knowledge what are the factors in this test ,I understand the tight in-line setup and the quad but those are big factors that stand out to my rookie eyes see. What else are contributing factors as to the toughness of the test? I am looking at the pic on the blog right below;TEST DOG LAND QUAD WITH TWO RETIRED.
> Just looking for knowledge not trying to degrade the test as if it doesnt seem difficult.


Hah! Inlines always look straight forward but seldom are. It seems that all you have to do is just go down the line! But, to the dog, there is the ying and yang of having to check down in front of another bird and also drive past an earlier bird. Hard to have such balance especially with 4 of them. To make matters worse, in this case you have to go long first and then come back shorter. By the time you are going for No. 4, things are getting foggy and there's those flyer guns.


Of course, without being there and experiencing lighting and wind, I can't comment on those but driving through a valley and partway up the far hill and with heavy cover in spots, this must surely be tough. It looks like a killer to me and it is hard to say if scent build-up wil make it harder or easier as the test develops. I guess I wish the "report" could provide some "analysis" of such things.


----------



## Breck

Also, I imagine 3 birds are hen pheasant. Checking dog on a retired hen pheasant, which leaves little scent, in front of a long standout gun (flyer station) is not exactly easy to do. I bet in pre-national training most everybody trained on short check down pheasant with a standout gun long, several times.


----------



## RetrieversONLINE

Rick_C said:


> Which was? (For those of us who don't know)


Primary selection is when you select the first bird to retieve (ie not the last bird down!). Usually not the last bird down flyer.

Secondary selection is when you select which bird will be retrieved second. Usually the next shortest bird.

Rex's main use of these was to primary select off a flyer as last bird down to get another short retired bird. Secondary selection usually involved getting the next shortest bird after the first retrieve. In later years Rex abandoned both primary and even secondary selection. Thus, you will hear Rorem talk "ideal" selection" which is basically picking up whatever bird you want whenever.This even includes picking up the short bird last!

Sorry for the interruption but you asked! And it is interesting to hear how different dogs do it. Sometimes you have a plan but the dog gets an unplanned bird and then you have to adjust. Does the dog always know what bird he got when he gets back to line?


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Hah! Inlines always look straight forward but seldom are. It seems that all you have to do is just go down the line! But, to the dog, there is the ying and yang of having to check down in front of another bird and also drive past an earlier bird. Hard to have such balance especially with 4 of them. To make matters worse, in this case you have to go long first and then come back shorter. By the time you are going for No. 4, things are getting foggy and there's those flyer guns.
> 
> 
> Of course, without being there and experiencing lighting and wind, I can't comment on those but driving through a valley and partway up the far hill and with heavy cover in spots, this must surely be tough. It looks like a killer to me and it is hard to say if scent build-up wil make it harder or easier as the test develops. I guess I wish the "report" could provide some "analysis" of such things.



Dennis, how do the no-birds play into it, does it make it easier by giving them a second/third look at the marks, or is it confusing for them, or does it just depend on the dog?


----------



## RetrieversONLINE

Brad Slaybaugh said:


> Dennis, how do the no-birds play into it, does it make it easier by giving them a second/third look at the marks, or is it confusing for them, or does it just depend on the dog?


I have been watching that also. Sometimes seeing a tough bird twice is very helpful. However, some dogs get just too excited to handle 2-3 times to line in a rather short period. It might really help if you saw 1 and 2 a couple of times but if you saw all 4 go off a couple of times and had 2 flyer no-birds, it could turn into a 12 bird test in the dogs mind. Duncan (#88) had two no-birds and then a great test but I don't know which were the no-birds. Billy Ray can get kinda excited on line but he is also rather collected and coperative otherwise so it may have helped him.

One thing is for sure: _*no-birds are tough on the handlers!!!
*_


----------



## EdA

In the third everyone thought a second look at the middle bird would be a positive but as Dennis said in a quad it depends on when the no bird occurred, a no bird, especially an unusual flyer is not wiped from the dog's memory and sometimes after a no bird the dogs do not watch the other throws a second or third time they just wait for the flyer.


----------



## jeff evans

Good point Dennis....is a no bird harder on the handler or the dog? I just asked both of mine and they both said it depends 

I have recently heard confusion on primary vs secondary selection, dennis explained above but in my opinion the two terms are not interchangeable. *Primary selection-* selecting/retrieving *another *bird *rather *than the last bird down/go bird. This is not a common practice, yet is still relevant in todays trials just as we are seeing in this 7th series where the flier is long and not in there face and so tempting. 
*secondary selection*- selecting a bird *after* the go bird/last bird down is retrieved. Secondary selection is very common in today's trials and a must have tool. 

Teaching a dog the concept of primary and secondary selection even if you never use it in a trial will prove to make a better dog and in my opinion a field trial retriever must be proficient at both.


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

RetrieversONLINE said:


> One thing is for sure: _*no-birds are tough on the handlers!!!
> *_


Amen, couldn't agree more


----------



## Rick_C

Thank you for the explanation, Dennis!


----------



## Breck

Are handlers really selecting a bird other than the flyer or are dogs sucking to one of the short guns on the way to the flyer? It's tight. Where's the wind?


----------



## JKOttman

Well Vicki took great care to talk about the factors, wind direction, types of birds being used and the order in which the birds were thrown. She typically identified the key parts of each mark/blind and would shape her description of the dog's performance in terms of those elements. By putting context around the dog's performance, there were no issues of her second-guessing the judges. She provided the information others could use to visualize what was happening. Just a few of the ways she demonstrated her extensive experience in handling, training and judging dogs. She, or someone with a comparable background, is sorely missed.


----------



## Rainmaker

JKOttman said:


> Well Vicki took great care to talk about the factors, wind direction, types of birds being used and the order in which the birds were thrown. She typically identified the key parts of each mark and would shape her description of the dog's performance in terms of those elements. By putting context around the dog's performance, there were no issues of her second-guessing the judges. She provided the information others could use to visualize what was happening. Just a few of the ways she demonstrated her extensive experience in handling, training and judging dogs. She, or someone with a comparable background, is sorely missed.


Yes, exactly.


----------



## BonMallari

If I were the Executive Producer at ESPN/USA Today/Twitter my Dream Team for reporting on the National would be

Play by Play commentary : Judy Myers - no one describes a test in such vivid detail as she does

Illustrations : Pam Ingham- best dog sketch artist/illustrator out there

Color commentary : Ken Bora, next to Don Meredith,probably no one else as funny

Sideline Reporter : Melanie Foster- not afraid to ask the tough questions of anyone

Political Analysis : Susan Bledsoe- understands the game behind the scenes

ESPN First Take analysis/debate: John Fallon vs Ted Shih vs Marvin Sundstrom


In Studio Co Hosts : Dr Ed Aycock- always the voice of reason, Lauren Hays - gives people a reason to watch


----------



## zipmarc

JKOttman said:


> Well Vicki took great care to talk about the factors, wind direction, types of birds being used and the order in which the birds were thrown. She typically identified the key parts of each mark and would shape her description of the dog's performance in terms of those elements. By putting context around the dog's performance, there were no issues of her second-guessing the judges. She provided the information others could use to visualize what was happening. Just a few of the ways she demonstrated her extensive experience in handling, training and judging dogs. She, or someone with a comparable background, is sorely missed.


Vickie is a pro. She wrote about the wind direction, the terrain, the birds, the order, and the most pertinent variables relevant to the particular test. She didn't grandly refer to the factors as factors and did not use broad, sweeping phrases. Because she knows what she's talking about. That's the difference.


----------



## savage25xtreme

BonMallari said:


> Lauren Hays - gives people a reason to watch


did anyone else notice the blog folks took a pic of her back side and posted it??? Interesting view of both dog and handler.


----------



## Bridget Bodine

Nothin for nothin ALL OF The pics of handlers are of the backsides!!!


savage25xtreme said:


> did anyone else notice the blog folks took a pic of her back side and posted it??? Interesting view of both dog and handler.


----------



## huntinman

Oh boy....


----------



## HarryWilliams

Maybe Vickie could give us an update on the fly fishing. I'd like to know if she landing any of the fish "clean". ;-) Or cleaned any of the fish she landed. HPW


----------



## zipmarc

BonMallari said:


> If I were the Executive Producer at ESPN/USA Today/Twitter my Dream Team for reporting on the National would be
> 
> Play by Play commentary : Judy Myers - no one describes a test in such vivid detail as she does
> 
> Illustrations : Pam Ingham- best dog sketch artist/illustrator out there
> 
> Color commentary : Ken Bora, next to Don Meredith,probably no one else as funny
> 
> Sideline Reporter : Melanie Foster- not afraid to ask the tough questions of anyone
> 
> Political Analysis : Susan Bledsoe- understands the game behind the scenes
> 
> ESPN First Take analysis/debate: John Fallon vs Ted Shih vs Marvin Sundstrom
> 
> 
> In Studio Co Hosts : Dr Ed Aycock- always the voice of reason, Lauren Hays - gives people a reason to watch



With a Superstar cast like that, nobody would watch the dog work any more  !


----------



## DoubleHaul

Don't know how it is now, but I was up in the area for a week until last Sunday and the fishing was excellent. Weather was weird--went from 90 to frost in a day--but the fish were looking for something to eat. Even my poor ties.


----------



## moscowitz

John Fallon vs Ted Shih vs Marvin Sundstrom

I would love to see that. I'm still laughing


----------



## RetrieversONLINE

BonMallari said:


> If I were the Executive Producer at ESPN/USA Today/Twitter my Dream Team for reporting on the National would be
> 
> Play by Play commentary : Judy Myers - no one describes a test in such vivid detail as she does
> 
> Illustrations : Pam Ingham- best dog sketch artist/illustrator out there
> 
> Color commentary : Ken Bora, next to Don Meredith,probably no one else as funny
> 
> Sideline Reporter : Melanie Foster- not afraid to ask the tough questions of anyone
> 
> Political Analysis : Susan Bledsoe- understands the game behind the scenes
> 
> ESPN First Take analysis/debate: John Fallon vs Ted Shih vs Marvin Sundstrom
> 
> 
> In Studio Co Hosts : Dr Ed Aycock- always the voice of reason, Lauren Hays - gives people a reason to watch


*What! No Foreign Correspondent?
*


----------



## Rick_C

7 is in the books. Seemed like the judges got answers and may have a pretty manageable number of dogs going to the 8th. Blind or big water marks?


----------



## FOM

I've heard its a land blind, down the right side of where they just ran, toward the flier station.


----------



## Warren Flynt

Last time I checked, the blog was free....


----------



## FOM

25 back

Callbacks: 7, 8, 10, 16, 26, 28, 32, 39, 52, 55, 71, 86, 88, 91, 94, 97, 98, 99, 100, 102, 103, 109, 112, 113 and 116.

24 Dogs dropped: 9, 17, 25, 27, 31, 43, 44, 49, 50, 57, 59, 63, 64, 66, 69, 70, 74, 75, 76, 77, 80, 90, 95, 101


----------



## JS

Bridget Bodine said:


> Nothin for nothin ALL OF The pics of handlers are of the backsides!!!


All handles are not the same.

All hunts are not the same.

All backsides ....... never mind.

JS


----------



## Jay Dufour

Hahhahhhahha ! good answer !


----------



## shawninthesticks

I think I know who I'm routing for now,to be on the cover of the magazine


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

bonmallari said:


> if i were the executive producer at espn/usa today/twitter my dream team for reporting on the national would be
> 
> play by play commentary : Judy myers - no one describes a test in such vivid detail as she does
> 
> illustrations : Pam ingham- best dog sketch artist/illustrator out there
> 
> color commentary : Ken bora, next to don meredith,probably no one else as funny
> 
> sideline reporter : Melanie foster- not afraid to ask the tough questions of anyone
> 
> political analysis : Susan bledsoe- understands the game behind the scenes
> 
> espn first take analysis/debate: John fallon vs ted shih vs marvin sundstrom
> 
> 
> in studio co hosts : Dr ed aycock- always the voice of reason, lauren hays - gives people a reason to watch


that was good.


----------



## Annette

Test 8 has started.


----------



## ReedCreek

I really wish that the trainers, judges, handlers and students of the game who are following and replying to this thread would use what is left of this Nationals to focus in this thread on things that would be more positive to help us all learn and grow in this sport than to continue to harp away on the Lamb vs. Retriever News Team debate - I think a great opportunity for those on RTF with experience, knowledge and insight of the game is being wasted. It has been stated many times that Vicki Lamb is a professional and, although I do not know her personally, I would bet she loves this sport and would like to see the focus taken off of this issue and placed where it belongs on the dogs and handlers in this event. If you want, you can pick up the Lamb vs. Retriever News later. Thank you.


----------



## Franco

4 of the 25 dogs remaining are Candlewood. Impressive!

Oh, any shots of Handler Lauren Hayes, back or front is fine with me.;-)


----------



## Breck

In the pic they posted if that's the blind planter way way back through the L/H slot, dog better not have a loopy sit. lol


----------



## HarryWilliams

6 of the remaining 25 are Non-titled. Here come the multiple flyer quads. HPW


----------



## Rick_C

JTS said:


> you can referee Dennis!!


Dennis would make a great moderator! 



Franco said:


> 4 of the 25 dogs remaining are Candlewood. Impressive!
> 
> Oh, any shots of Handler Lauren Hayes, back or front is fine with me.;-)


Seconded.

And, seconded!


----------



## Rick_C

The blog states that the line to the blind was moved. I wonder if the picture they show is still accurate? Small slot to see the dogs between the left and right tree if so.

Looks like they'll have no problem getting through all the dogs tonight, half way through according to the blog post 30 minutes ago.


----------



## jenbrowndvm

JTS said:


> you can referee Dennis!!


I think that a foreign correspondent from Canada would be a good addition. 

I also think you should consider some eye candy for the ladies, since you guys will have Lauren Hays.


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B

Number back: 24

Starting Number: 112

Callbacks to the 9th: 7, 8, 10, 16, 26, 28, 32, 39, 52, 55, 71, 86, 88, 91, 94, 97, 98, 100, 102, 103, 109, 112, 113 and 116.

Dog dropped: 99

Test dog is at 7:00 a.m. at the Magnusson property.​


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

jenbrowndvm said:


> I think that a foreign correspondent from Canada would be a good addition.
> 
> I also think you should consider some eye candy for the ladies, since you guys will have Lauren Hays.


You've got Ken Bora, maybe we need to add Bubba also!!!!!


----------



## dogcommand

ReedCreek said:


> I really wish that the trainers, judges, handlers and students of the game who are following and replying to this thread would use what is left of this Nationals to focus in this thread on things that would be more positive to help us all learn and grow in this sport than to continue to harp away on the Lamb vs. Retriever News Team debate - I think a great opportunity for those on RTF with experience, knowledge and insight of the game is being wasted. It has been stated many times that Vicki Lamb is a professional and, although I do not know her personally, I would bet she loves this sport and would like to see the focus taken off of this issue and placed where it belongs on the dogs and handlers in this event. If you want, you can pick up the Lamb vs. Retriever News later. Thank you.


AMEN!!! Quit beating the horse and be thankful that we are getting something. I wonder how many of the loudest protestors could do half as well. :2c:


----------



## Donald Flanagan

jenbrowndvm said:


> I also think you should consider some *eye candy for the ladies*, since you guys will have Lauren Hays.


What, Ken Bora's not good enough for you?

Ah, I see that someone beat me to it. Maybe Gooser could do some segments on retriever trainer fashion, or something like that for you ladies.


----------



## Guest

"...less than two minutes per dog, we have already run 13 dogs of 25...*we will post all the dog work an photos when we return to an area of usable Internet service*..."

Does anyone else want to say don't even bother?


----------



## zipmarc

Melanie Foster said:


> "...less than two minutes per dog, we have already run 13 dogs of 25...*we will post all the dog work an photos when we return to an area of usable Internet service*..."
> 
> Does anyone else want to say don't even bother?


----------



## Scott Adams

During test 5 on Wednesday afternoon my Black Purina chair went missing from the gallery. No sign of it so far.
My name, S.Adams is marked clearly on the little fold out thingy. If someone discovers it in their truck, while at the trial, please return it to the marshals. My backside was just getting used to it.


----------



## ErinsEdge

Anyone know what happened to dog 99 to get dropped in the 8th?. I thought she was in pretty good shape from what you could tell.


----------



## jeff evans

Of the handlers that had multiple bullets, looks like only one handler has two at this point. Looks like an even playing field....


----------



## Breck

Scott Adams said:


> During test 5 on Wednesday afternoon my Black Purina chair went missing from the gallery. No sign of it so far.
> My name, S.Adams is marked clearly on the little fold out thingy. If someone discovers it in their truck, while at the trial, please return it to the marshals. My backside was just getting used to it.


Hey Scott, if you haven't figured it out, no one will tell us poor sods what's actually been going on at this trial let alone feed us juicy gallery scuttle butt like who's been kissin' who or who tucked a nice black chair away in their breezeway . lol have you tried the Euk rep?


----------



## Rick_C

ErinsEdge said:


> Anyone know what happened to dog 99 to get dropped in the 8th?. I thought she was in pretty good shape from what you could tell.


I was wondering that too. Doubtful that the blind was as tough as the judges thought going by the callbacks.

Do they go to a big, nasty water series tomorrow or something a little quicker to run so they can do the 9th and 10th both in the same day?


----------



## rontalbott

jeff evans said:


> Of the handlers that had multiple bullets, looks like only one handler has two at this point. Looks like an even playing field....


Jabar Youngglove #16 & #100


----------



## JS

Baker & Schweikert each have 2 left also.

JS


----------



## RetrieversONLINE

dogcommand said:


> AMEN!!! Quit beating the horse and be thankful that we are getting something. I wonder how many of the loudest protestors could do half as well. :2c:


Another two cents worth thinking about. I'm only aware of a handful of current RTFers that could do this job very well. It is not easy to do but it is easy to critcize! I do think the RN team has been really trying hard to do their very best. Their reports have been timely-better than in the past. 

It is clear they are confronted with a steep learning curve. I may be mistaken but as the week has unfolded I have seen them respond to the critique (or was it criticism?) of RFT. If it wasn't RTF, then, they are getting some good feedback elsewhere or else they are simply learning. 

Understanding and analysing National tests and the dog work takes a great deal of knowledge and experience. The old YBS reports demonstrated that often. Sometimes analyses was were dead on and sometimes not, but, always thoughtful. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely! I suspect we'll see RN changes after this National -partly because of feedback-partly their experience. So, I don't think feedback should be eliminated but it should be helpful rather than vindictive.

At least that's the view of one foreign correspondent!


----------



## Guest

ReedCreek said:


> I really wish that the trainers, judges, handlers and students of the game who are following and replying to this thread would use what is left of this Nationals to focus in this thread on things that would be more positive to help us all learn and grow in this sport than to continue to harp away on the Lamb vs. Retriever News Team debate - I think a great opportunity for those on RTF with experience, knowledge and insight of the game is being wasted. It has been stated many times that Vicki Lamb is a professional and, although I do not know her personally, I would bet she loves this sport and would like to see the focus taken off of this issue and placed where it belongs on the dogs and handlers in this event. If you want, you can pick up the Lamb vs. Retriever News later. Thank you.


You hit the nail on the head perhaps without realizing it. First things first though, this is not the Nationals, it is the National Amateur. There is one of these a year. Just a pet peeve of mine. 

But, regarding the RN's mission which admirably appears to have evolved from primarily providing results when it was RFTN to also making a great attempt to provide educational content to its subscribers, this 2012 National Amateur reporting is far from what appears to be their new goal. It is vague, inaccurate, and frankly, boring and frustrating. Sketches and/or photos with any bit of detail are being gathered from attendants and do not appear to be provided from the RN staff itself. The reporter, poor fellow that is obviously not an experienced field trialer, has been thrown to the wolves with no coaching and the vocabulary we are all accustomed to is causing eye rolling at a minimum. 

If Retriever News chooses to make the blog in the future available only to us paying customers in the future, so be it. But it really depends what they consider to be the means to the ends. Whether it is providing education or luring in more future subscribers, they had best start adding some value to their reporting.

As always, just my humble opinion.


----------



## captainjack

ErinsEdge said:


> Anyone know what happened to dog 99 to get dropped in the 8th?. I thought she was in pretty good shape from what you could tell.





Rick_C said:


> I was wondering that too. Doubtful that the blind was as tough as the judges thought going by the callbacks.
> 
> ...


Heard that the blind was a Q blind, but that dog 99 was loose. Heard one other was very loose as well but made it back to 9th. Cumulative work?

Appears that the judges were just getting the eighth out of the way so could start fresh in the AM. I certainly don't know that for sure, but it is nice that all dogs and handlers will be fresh (as you can be under the circumstances) for the start of the 9th.


----------



## Guest

RetrieversONLINE said:


> At least that's the view of one foreign correspondent!


Dennis,

Let me talk to Bon and see if I have any pull about adding you to the team. I know you're just doing it for the t-shirt that has been promised to us, but I won't tell anyone else.

Melanie


----------



## Scott Adams

Breck said:


> Hey Scott, if you haven't figured it out, no one will tell us poor sods what's actually been going on at this trial let alone feed us juicy gallery scuttle butt like who's been kissin' who or who tucked a nice black chair away in their breezeway . lol have you tried the Euk rep?


HAHA.
I'm, afraid I was too busy brushing blinds & spitting out bugs because my yap was opened with awe of the grounds. I saw some great dog work and sometimes I even knew who was running. I had to come home today to answer the call of duty. I did see the RFN crew working constantly to provide quality coverage. As much as I liked Vickies blog, my hat is off to Tina & friends. I haven't read through much of this thread.


----------



## zipmarc

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Another two cents worth thinking about. I'm only aware of a handful of current RTFers that could do this job very well. It is not easy to do but it is easy to critcize! I do think the RN team has been really trying hard to do their very best. Their reports have been timely-better than in the past.
> 
> It is clear they are confronted with a steep learning curve. I may be mistaken but as the week has unfolded I have seen them respond to the critique (or was it criticism?) of RFT. If it wasn't RTF, then, they are getting some good feedback elsewhere or else they are simply learning.
> 
> Understanding and analysing National tests and the dog work takes a great deal of knowledge and experience. The old YBS reports demonstrated that often. Sometimes analyses was were dead on and sometimes not, but, always thoughtful. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely! I suspect we'll see RN changes after this National -partly because of feedback-partly their experience. So, I don't think feedback should be eliminated but it should be helpful rather than vindictive.
> 
> At least that's the view of one foreign correspondent!


Critique seems to be more appropriate, and I think most of us did that. Some, perhaps got frustrated, and sounded more vehement. Hopefully all will end well before the National Open - some sort of melding of talents. Hark back to the history of Entry Express, it all came out for the better in the end.


----------



## jenbrowndvm

Donald Flanagan said:


> What, Ken Bora's not good enough for you?
> 
> Ah, I see that someone beat me to it. Maybe Gooser could do some segments on retriever trainer fashion, or something like that for you ladies.


I was kind of thinking "Sexiest Man Alive" in camo - or I guess I should say in white jacket with black gloves. However, the backsides I really don't mind watching are Grady, Slider, Pete, Windy, Pirate, Trav, Cane, Pogo, Jerrylee, Ruby etc. 

But..... SMA in camo wouldn't be bad either.


----------



## zipmarc

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Primary selection is when you select the first bird to retieve (ie not the last bird down!). Usually not the last bird down flyer.
> 
> Secondary selection is when you select which bird will be retrieved second. Usually the next shortest bird.
> 
> Rex's main use of these was to primary select off a flyer as last bird down to get another short retired bird. Secondary selection usually involved getting the next shortest bird after the first retrieve. In later years Rex abandoned both primary and even secondary selection. Thus, you will hear Rorem talk "ideal" selection" which is basically picking up whatever bird you want whenever.This even includes picking up the short bird last!
> 
> Sorry for the interruption but you asked! And it is interesting to hear how different dogs do it. Sometimes you have a plan but the dog gets an unplanned bird and then you have to adjust. Does the dog always know what bird he got when he gets back to line?



Keeping in mind there have been a few morphs to the basic concept of selection: Originally, Rex Carr taught selection as a means of control (amongst various other things). It was strictly handler's choice - the dog picks up the shortest bird first, then the next, then the next, no matter the order of fall of the marks. It's that simple. Rex liked things simple. Simplify, he would typically remind his clients.

As we all know, whenever we pull a dog off a mark, it affects its memory of it to some degree. Some dogs were great candidates as selection dogs, and others, should not be made to select, period. There were clients who thought they understood the full concept (but didn't really) after spending a couple of weeks at Rex's, who then went out and trained on it. It screwed up the dog's marking and unfortunately the negative image of the Escalon Shuffle grew, largely due to misapplication of the fundamental concept.

As the years went by, Rex basically stopped using selection, but 'selection' was still being applied by many, in interesting ways. Rex's more well known 'students' had their own interpretation of selection, and their goals might be different. So what is now called selection is an evolution and, to me, a departure from the original basis. Unless Rex's book is written to expound the selection principle in depth, this is all that can really be said on the subject without obfuscation.


----------



## Rick_C

Great insight, Mimi. Thanks for taking the time!


----------



## DaveHare

Go Slider, and Lauren keep it going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dave Hare


----------



## jeff evans

rontalbott said:


> Jabar Youngglove #16 & #100


Jerry Y. #100, Barbra Y. #16. Baker has 2, schweikert has 2 but that's the only 2 that get to go to the line twice.


----------



## ReedCreek

"... First things first though, this is not the Nationals, it is the National Amateur. There is one of these a year. Just a pet peeve of mine. :smile:" 

There ya go Melanie; finally some info that is education...good girl!":smile:


----------



## PalouseDogs

Instead of different reporters, I'd rather see videos of each dog. Doesn't have to be live streaming (expensive). It could be videos posted to youtube, possibly requiring a fee to watch during the trial. Cost would be a couple of decent cameras, a laptop, a high-speed internet connection, and some working with the judges to set up cameras where the view would be decent but the dogs wouldn't be distracted. It's the 21st century.


----------



## Cowtown

Seems like they got someone new giving the info or something has changed. The descriptions are even more confusing this morning.


----------



## BonMallari

ninth series triple w/honor would lead me to believe that sets up for a somewhat traditional quad in the 10th....


----------



## zipmarc

Cowtown said:


> Seems like they got someone new giving the info or something has changed. The descriptions are even more confusing this morning.


What is a left retried bird ? Some new species  ?

Oh, I just figured it out. A repeated typo for left retired.


----------



## Rick_C

BonMallari said:


> ninth series triple w/honor would lead me to believe that sets up for a somewhat traditional quad in the 10th....


I was thinking they already did the honor???


----------



## Baby Duck

Did Grady pick up or handle. 

Summary here has handle on running list. Pick up in summary. 
RTFn has as a handle on right retired ??

What's the scoop ??


----------



## Rick_C

The description of the middle/flyer as the "right retired flyer" is confusing. Especially since it's the middle bird and the only flyer according to the description/picture of the test.


----------



## FOM

Baby Duck said:


> Did Grady pick up or handle.
> 
> Summary here has handle on running list. Pick up in summary.
> RTFn has as a handle on right retired ??
> 
> What's the scoop ??


Sorry my fault, it's suppose to be a handle - I'm training right now and updating via my iPhone. Fixing it.


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh

FOM said:


> Sorry my fault, it's suppose to be a handle - I'm training right now and updating via my iPhone. Fixing it.


You're doing a great job, as always...THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS.

Brad


----------



## Breck

the blog pic of Chad and Grady demonstrates a very good handling tip.


----------



## Chris Videtto

Pirate fo finish up the 9th.....fingers crossed fro a nice clean run!

Breck......ok I'll bite. Chad looks to be in complete control coming out of the blind!


----------



## Baby Duck

FOM said:


> Sorry my fault, it's suppose to be a handle - I'm training right now and updating via my iPhone. Fixing it.


No problem. Just looking for clarification as it was confusing.


----------



## Breck

Chris Videtto said:


> .ok I'll bite. Chad looks to be in complete control coming out of the blind!


No that's not it.

see below


----------



## Rnd

Well the 9th. is finished how many back for the final??? 

Several dogs still in it have handles. Do they get cut now???

I can't believe I'm setting at home on a beautiful Saturday waiting for blog updates  

Gotta love this game.....

Randy


----------



## BonMallari

I will guess 14 dogs and at least two with handles from previous series


----------



## Rnd

If it's 14 I think 3 will have handled??? I think only 11 of the 24 were "clean" going into 9th.

With the descriptions on the blog it's hard to tell how the work has been other than handles and pick ups.

Waiting for call backs.

Randy


----------



## Rnd

Breck said:


> the blog pic of Chad and Grady demonstrates a very good handling tip.




Breck, Not exactly sure what you see but, from the camera angle it "appears" that Chad is letting Grady get a good look at those guns before rushing to the line. If I were to make a caption to that shot it may be "Goooood dog remember where he's at"

Or at least that's what I see.

Randy


----------



## Chris Videtto

Patiently waiting for call backs.....constantly refreshing the Blog!!!!


----------



## Breck

Right
He's, at least I think he is, showing the dog the key bird.
In this test the retired flyer was likely the “key bird”. When coming out of the holding blind, and before you head to the mat, position your dog and possibly sit him so he has a good look at that key bird. Hopefully a shorter attractive bird is not in the dogs view when you do this. Once you see he identifies the guns at the key bird, head to the mat.


----------



## FOM

9 Dogs dropped: 8, 10, 32, 52, 55, 71, 91, 102, 112


----------



## Rnd

15 back, 3 with handles . Grady gone. Pirate still there

Randy


----------



## firehouselabs

Pulling for either Pirate, Cane, or Cree to win!


----------



## Eric Fryer

Pulling for Cane and Traveler.... has a untitled dog ever won it all?


----------



## BonMallari

Pin it to WIN it time now


----------



## Billie

Love the picture of 88 (Son of a Preacher Man) and his handler! THAT my friends is what its all about in the long run. Very touching!!!


----------



## Dan Wegner

Sitting out on the long right retired getting ready to throw birds for some Damned nice dogs. Beautiful day here. Best of luck to all those still in it. May the birds be with you!


----------



## Breck

Starter
28 FC-AFC BAYOU TECHE EYE ON THE BALL, Lauren Hays
39 FC-AFC RAGIN EYE OF THE STORM, John Thomas
86 FC-AFC HILLTOP’S HIGH SOCIETY, Sylvia McClure
88 SON OF A PREACHER MAN, Duncan Christie
94 AFC WRS BUGS BLACK MIST, Wayne Stupka
97 FC-AFC CASTLEBAY'S NIGHT ROBBER, Dave Seivert
98 AFC CANDLEWOODS COMMANDER AND CHIEF, Fred Kampo
100 FC-AFC-CFC-CAFC ADAMS ACRES MUDDY CREEK, Jerry Younglove
103 FC-AFC LAND AHOY, Gary Zellner
109 PADDLE CREEK'S PACK YOUR GRIP, Chad Baker
113 NFC-AFC CANDLEWOOD'S SOMETHING ROYAL, Ken Neil
116 FC-AFC SML STELLA'S GOT HER GROOVE, David Didier
7 AFC TEXACO’S HIGH TESSE, Alex Abraham
16 JAYBAR AMERICAN IDOL, Barbara Younglove
26 LAKE PARK DIAMOND IN THE RUFF, Charles Bearden


----------



## Dan Wegner

And the crowd gathered cheers the arrival of the remaining contestants...


----------



## Warren Flynt

Dan Wegner said:


> And the crowd gathered cheers the arrival of the remaining contestants...


That is awesome.


----------



## ErinsEdge

Dan Wegner said:


> And the crowd gathered cheers the arrival of the remaining contestants...


What is the test? Quad? How many flyers? The blog hasn't said.


----------



## jeff evans

Stella's got her groove, might be in a groove like bon said pinn to win!


----------



## CLindsay

I have 5 with handles from FOM and the Blog but not the callback list. 88 handled in the third and 113 handled in the fifth.


----------



## tshuntin

The blog just posted "Finalists". Don't you technically have to complete the series to become a finalists.


----------



## Breck

Finalists are those that complete the 10th right?
I hope all of them do!


----------



## dogcommand

Congratulations to Lauren and Slider for making it as a finalist. What a year they have had!


----------



## EdA

Someone should inform the bloggers that they are not finalists until they complete the tenth series


----------



## Dan Wegner

Started out as a quad with two shorter flyers on the outside and two long retired up the middle, but the judges pulled one long retired pheasant before the first test dog. 

Now a triple with a long middle retired dead duck thrown right to left shot first. 2nd bird is a flyer duck on the right shot left to ri ght and finally the pheasant flyer on the left shot from left to right angled back across a creek and into the test. Several bodies of water on the way to each bird.


----------



## EdA

jeff evans said:


> Stella's got her groove, might be in a groove like bon said pinn to win!


Unless something bizarre happens in the tenth it is unlikely that a dog with a handle will win and she handled in the third


----------



## tshuntin

EdA said:


> Someone should inform the bloggers that they are not finalists until they complete the tenth series


Yep got a chuckle out of that too. Wish your name was still there Ed. Hopefully you will have many more chances.


----------



## CLindsay

5 females left 3 with handles. 10 males left 2 with handles. 4 of the males are non-titled with only one having a handle.


----------



## huntinman

One of the saddest things I ever saw at a trial was a handler having to pick up his dog in the 10th series at the 2001 Nat'l Am after a long attempt to handle him to a bird. It was hot and the handler eventually was more worried about the dog than finishing. Heartbreaking... Get that far and not finish...


----------



## dmccarty

Sorry don't think pics are allowed that are not from the RN crew?


----------



## Baby Duck

I think 11 dogs without handles going to the tenth shows exceptional dog work and a great field was entered this week.
Seems like a higher than normal number of " clean " dogs. I quoted clean as I know there's likely some with dings , just not handles. 

Good luck to everyone in the tenth !!!
Hope you get the series of your life


----------



## jeff evans

EdA said:


> Unless something bizarre happens in the tenth it is unlikely that a dog with a handle will win and she handled in the third


Selective reading I guess a dog could handel on every bird and still be a finalist?


----------



## Breck

If the tents are at 12:00 which way is the house?


----------



## Warren Flynt

I recant my previous defense of the blog.


----------



## ErinsEdge

dmccarty said:


> Sorry don't think pics are allowed that are not from the RN crew?


Too late -Dan is doing great. Go Dan!


----------



## dmccarty

I don't know I am not there.


----------



## Dan Wegner

Breck said:


> If the tents are at 12:00 which way is the house?


Randy's house would be at 8 o'clock.


----------



## dmccarty

Nancy- Bummer. I am a very bad girl.


----------



## Breck

OK so sort of running from NW part of property towards the SE


----------



## Breck

For those who may not know this older pic shows the grounds for this series. 
.
.








.
.
.


----------



## Paul Brown

Thanks for the pic.


----------



## Dan Wegner

Breck said:


> OK so sort of running from NW part of property towards the SE


Yeah, kind of. The line is on the north-south ridge and faces ESE.


----------



## dmccarty

For those who saw my naughty pic that was duck not phez. Hope this helps.


----------



## EdA

jeff evans said:


> Selective reading I guess a dog could handel on every bird and still be a finalist?


Definitely, only breaking, switching, freezing on a bird. not retrieving all the birds, or eating a bird could keep one from being a Finalist


----------



## Paul Brown

Way to go Lauren!


----------



## EdA

The bloggers must be monitoring RTF, they changed the title from "The Finalists" to "Call backs to the tenth series".


----------



## BonMallari

I have two dogs left on the EE Pick Em.....I like....check that, LOVE their chances


----------



## bfarmer

Congratulations to Lauren and Slider!
Bobby


----------



## dmccarty

Even though the wording is difficult to follow, I am REALLY glad there is dog-by-dog reporting going on.


----------



## counciloak

What a great picture they took of Lauren and Slider after her run.

Congratulations to Lauren on an awesome week.

Joe


----------



## Guest

Thats a great picture says it all! Congratulations
3 left on my EE picks she is my tie breaker


----------



## Eric Fryer

counciloak said:


> What a great picture they took of Lauren and Slider after her run.
> 
> Congratulations to Lauren on an awesome week.
> 
> Joe


X2 I thought the same thing when I saw it. Congrats to her!! She is my tie breaker pick... still have 2 in contention...


----------



## Miriam Wade

counciloak said:


> What a great picture they took of Lauren and Slider after her run.
> 
> Congratulations to Lauren on an awesome week.
> 
> Joe


Wonderful picture and it does say it all. What is the background behind Lauren? She looks too young to have been in this for a very long time, but maybe comes from a FT family? Who is her pro-if she has one? I'd love to read a bio.

Still have 2 picks in, but am hoping all that made it to the 10th are finalists.

M


----------



## dogcommand

Great picture of Lauren and Slider. I repeat my previous post CONGRATULATIONS LAUREN AND SLIDER!!!!!! :BIG:


----------



## CLindsay

http://www.austincanineconsulting.com/bio.html

Bio on Lauren


----------



## bfarmer

Miriam Wade said:


> Wonderful picture and it does say it all. What is the background behind Lauren? She looks too young to have been in this for a very long time, but maybe comes from a FT family? Who is her pro-if she has one? I'd love to read a bio.
> 
> Still have 2 picks in, but am hoping all that made it to the 10th are finalists.
> 
> M


Came up in Hunt Tests and then into Field Trials. Trains and handles her own dogs. Slider is one heck of a dog! Hopefully she will get on and give a bio.
Bobby


----------



## dogcommand

CLindsay said:


> http://www.austincanineconsulting.com/bio.html
> 
> Bio on Lauren


 And a heck of a nice person too!


----------



## Jerry S.

Miriam Wade said:


> Wonderful picture and it does say it all. What is the background behind Lauren? She looks too young to have been in this for a very long time, but maybe comes from a FT family? Who is her pro-if she has one? I'd love to read a bio.
> 
> Still have 2 picks in, but am hoping all that made it to the 10th are finalists.
> 
> M


Congrats to Lauren and Slider. Miriam I have a pup sired by Slider. Lauren and I keep in contact. She is only 32 years old. She runs Austin Canine Consulting in Austin, TX. So she knows animals, especially dogs very well from the inside out.
Not sure how long she has been in the FT game. She has trained Slider exclusively be herself. I know she trains with Bill Eckett occasionally.
If you Google Austin Canine Consutling you can learn more about her.
Heck, Slider sleeps with her in bed!!


----------



## Miriam Wade

CLindsay said:


> http://www.austincanineconsulting.com/bio.html
> 
> Bio on Lauren


Thanks! Not to detract from the fact that you need to be an extraordinary handler (kudos to all that ran) to qualify and run the Nat. Am., but did Lauren in fact also train Slider?

M


----------



## EdA

bfarmer said:


> Came up in Hunt Tests and then into Field Trials. Trains and handles her own dogs. Slider is one heck of a dog! Hopefully she will get on and give a bio.
> Bobby


Lauren is very talented as is Slider, Bill Eckett certainly deserves a significant mention with regards to Slider's success.


----------



## dmccarty

Can someone tell me, did #94 actually handle or did they mean the dog had to work it out before it got the bird?


----------



## Miriam Wade

bfarmer said:


> Came up in Hunt Tests and then into Field Trials. Trains and handles her own dogs. Slider is one heck of a dog! Hopefully she will get on and give a bio.
> Bobby


Oops! We were posting at the same time. Thanks for the info. Slider may be a heck of a dog, but it takes an equally skilled trainer/handler to allow them to shine. Amazing she did this without sending the dog to a pro!!

M


----------



## bfarmer

Miriam Wade said:


> Oops! We were posting at the same time. Thanks for the info. Slider may be a heck of a dog, but it takes an equally skilled trainer/handler to allow them to shine. Amazing she did this without sending the dog to a pro!!
> 
> M


I agree! Lauren is a good friend of mine and no doubt is a great trainer/handler! Very happy for them!
Bobby


----------



## Miriam Wade

Watchm said:


> Congrats to Lauren and Slider. Miriam I have a pup sired by Slider. Lauren and I keep in contact. She is only 32 years old. She runs Austin Canine Consulting in Austin, TX. So she knows animals, especially dogs very well from the inside out.
> Not sure how long she has been in the FT game. She has trained Slider exclusively be herself. I know she trains with Bill Eckett occasionally.
> If you Google Austin Canine Consutling you can learn more about her.
> Heck, Slider sleeps with her in bed!!


Thanks!! Great background. Good luck with your Slider pup and Congrats to Lauren and Slider.

ok-done hijacking!

M


----------



## JusticeDog

counciloak said:


> What a great picture they took of Lauren and Slider after her run.
> 
> Congratulations to Lauren on an awesome week.
> 
> Joe


Congrats to lauren and slider is right! but that picture looks like Slider is sayin "Mom, not now. They will think I'm a sissy... they're takin' a picture!".


----------



## BonMallari

Watchm said:


> Congrats to Lauren and Slider. Miriam I have a pup sired by Slider. Lauren and I keep in contact. She is only 32 years old. She runs Austin Canine Consulting in Austin, TX. So she knows animals, especially dogs very well from the inside out.
> Not sure how long she has been in the FT game. She has trained Slider exclusively be herself. I know she trains with Bill Eckett occasionally.
> If you Google Austin Canine Consutling you can learn more about her.
> Heck, Slider sleeps with her in bed!!


besides the fact that Lauren is a TEXAS A&M graduate, she is a nice young lady, if I ever had a daughter I would hope she would be like that young lady...

Slider should also be considered on anyone's list in looking for a stud dog...that Clubmead Road Warrior son can definitely mark


CONGRATS YOUNG LADY YOU RAN AN EXCELLENT TRIAL


----------



## Baby Duck

By the looks of the comments she and slider setthe bar fairly high for the 10 TH. It'll take some very nice work to stay in contention for the rest


----------



## Chris Videtto

3 dogs still in on EE PLUS Trav as my Tie break still playing.....

Chris


----------



## JusticeDog

Fred and Chief have run a nice trial all the way through. The 10th had the worst descriptions from RN.


----------



## Chris Videtto

I know it is very tough to judge based on the blog but it seemed like Pirate had a nice run!


----------



## Jay Dufour

You got that right !


----------



## Mark Chase

Congrats to Lauren and Slider and to all of the handlers and dogs in the 10th series. Quite an achievement that I hope to be able to say I have accomplished sometime in the future. I hated to see Grady go out in the 9th, a great dog with a ton of heart and a good friend handling him. Wishing Trav all of the lusck for the 10th. Have 4 left in the EE picks, but am to far behind to come back and win it. Oh well Go Trav and Chad!!


----------



## BonMallari

JusticeDog said:


> Fred and Chief have run a nice trial all the way through. The 10th had the worst descriptions from RN.


I am trying to figure out what they mean by a LOOP, a Big LOOP, and a DEEP hunt....I know what they mean to me but I am trying real hard not to read anything into their description


----------



## Wayne Nutt

Pirate finished the test but I am not sure he will win. Without being there it looks like Slider did a better job. At least he will be a finalist. Which is quite an accomplishment.


----------



## huntinman

EdA said:


> *This is not life, death, or politics*, no sensational or salacious activity, no Fox News or CNN, *just a great big field trial that only a handful of people are interested in*.


very interested...


----------



## Mike W.

> Lauren is very talented as is Slider, Bill Eckett certainly deserves a significant mention with regards to Slider's success.


And before spending time with Eckett, she spent a fair amount of time training with Bill Schrader.

Not taking anything away from her, she has worked very hard. And Slider is a wonderful animal. But part of being successful in this sport is knowing who to learn from.


----------



## Tom Watson

I think she's been with a few pros.


----------



## Jay Dufour

I want streaming cams at next National ! If I can monitor my house from my I phone from anywhere in the world.....would that be groovy or what ?


----------



## savage25xtreme

I hope Ruff smokes the last series.... good luck Charles


----------



## Chris Videtto

BonMallari said:


> I am trying to figure out what they mean by a LOOP, a Big LOOP, and a DEEP hunt....I know what they mean to me but I am trying real hard not to read anything into their description


Bon.....here is a new one...."Great BIG Loop"

113. NFC-AFC CANDLEWOOD'S SOMETHING ROYAL, LF, Ken Neil

...came to the line at 5:08 p.m. She went right to the area where the left-hand bird fell, missed it, put on a great big loop, but came right back in and found it. On the right hand flyer, she swam toward the gunners, passed in front of them then hunted long and deep. She only stayed there for a moment and quickly got her mark. On the middle retired bird, Windy had the best line of the day...but, when she got to the far shore she hunted right behind the trees before coming out to pick up the bird.


----------



## Breck

Oh boy, there they go.


----------



## huntinman

Dog 7 just did a good job from the sounds of it. Finished the Nat'l without a handle. Was picked in the pickem a grand total of 1 time... congrats to this dog and handler!!


----------



## Paul Brown

Congrats to all of 'em. I can't imagine the pressure of a tenth series or the pure joy and satisfaction of finishing.


----------



## Breck

huntinman said:


> Dog 7 just did a good job from the sounds of it. Finished the Nat'l without a handle. Was picked in the pickem a grand total of 1 time... congrats to this dog and handler!!


Yes congratulations on a wonderful first National Alex.
Also kudos for stepping up after the traffic accident and handling training partner Craig Stonesiefer's dog Krumz through 5 series. That's pretty cool!

http://2012narcblog.theretrievernews.com/search?q=TEXACO’S+HIGH+TESSE


----------



## huntinman

Breck said:


> Yes congratulations on a* wonderful first National *Alex.
> Also kudos for *stepping up after the traffic accident and handling training partner Craig Stonesiefer's dog Krumz through 5 series. That's pretty cool!*





Amen to that!!


----------



## Dpage

Huge congratulations to Alex and Star!!


----------



## Baby Duck

Getting interesting. Ruff sounds very clean.


----------



## Chris Videtto

Dpage said:


> Huge congratulations to Alex and Star!!



Hi Denise.......check PM

Chris


----------



## BonMallari

where are Gracie and Sylvia, will they go last since they had a no bird


----------



## bfarmer

BonMallari said:


> where are Gracie and Sylvia, will they go last since they had a no bird


Wrong info. Was thinking last series! Sorry


----------



## Paula Richard

Have all the dogs run yet?


----------



## Tom Watson

did gracie have any hunts?


----------



## Jay Dufour

I was sure she had a no bird in tenth....we will see in a second


----------



## jenbrowndvm

So now the last birds are in, any guesses on the winner?


----------



## bfarmer

Tom Watson said:


> did gracie have any hunts?


Thought maybe one in the 9th but not positive.
Bobby


----------



## Rick_C

All done....now we and, more importantly, they, wait...


----------



## Breck

good luck Charles & Ruff.
That boys pedigree has a bitchline that's over the top!


----------



## Shayne Mehringer

Lauren did all of Slider's training. She worked her ass off and trained with as many knowledgeable people as she could. She has the smarts to learn things from multiple people and add bits and pieces to her own program. She does not subscribe to any single person's program start to finish (as most people should). She has her own program and the relationship she has with Slider and her ability to communicate with him and read him certainly play into their success.

We threw puppy bumpers for each other when Slider and Rowdy were babies. They grew up together, ran together, and I could not be more happy for her and her success. She deserves every bit of it and 100% of the credit.

Congrats to everyone that qualified for the National, finished the National, is about to win the National - or just had fun at a field trial or hunt test with their dogs this year. Success, and fun, are relative.

SM


----------



## bfarmer

Congratulations to all the FINALISTS! Awesome accomplishment! 
Bobby


----------



## zipmarc

Chris Videtto said:


> I know it is very tough to judge based on the blog but it seemed like Pirate had a nice run!


Pirate's got my vote!


----------



## BonMallari

Congrats to Sylvia McClure and Gracie on finishing and running a great trial, what a nice lady


----------



## bfarmer

BonMallari said:


> Congrats to Sylvia McClure and Gracie on finishing and running a great trial, what a nice lady


I second that! Maybe the nicest person in the sport!
Bobby


----------



## Jay Dufour

BonMallari said:


> Congrats to Sylvia McClure and Gracie on finishing and running a great trial, what a nice lady


I will second that !!!


----------



## huntinman

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Lauren did all of Slider's training. She worked her ass off and trained with as many knowledgeable people as she could. She has the smarts to learn things from multiple people and add bits and pieces to her own program. She does not subscribe to any single person's program start to finish (as most people should). She has her own program and the relationship she has with Slider and her ability to communicate with him and read him certainly play into their success.
> 
> We threw puppy bumpers for each other when Slider and Rowdy were babies. They grew up together, ran together, and I could not be more happy for her and her success. She deserves every bit of it and 100% of the credit.
> 
> Congrats to everyone that qualified for the National, finished the National, is about to win the National - or just had fun at a field trial or hunt test with their dogs this year. Success, and fun, are relative.
> 
> SM


Good post Shayne.


----------



## Tom Watson

Congratulations to all the finalists! It's a huge personal and avocational accomplishment and milestone! You've been living the dream!


----------



## mohaled

Good luck to Charles Bearden


----------



## Paula Richard

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Congrats to everyone that qualified for the National, finished the National, is about to win the National - or just had fun at a field trial or hunt test with their dogs this year. Success, and fun, are relative.
> 
> SM



Absolutely....


----------



## Archery1973

BonMallari said:


> Congrats to Sylvia McClure and Gracie on finishing and running a great trial, what a nice lady


I'm pulling for them.......


----------



## Baby Duck

I also tip my hat to all those that worked to put on the national. I realize it's all relative but we had un seasonably hot weather this past week around the great lakes with temps approaching 110 with humidex. Those temps with the humidity make for long days afield. So to all hands on deck Congrats on what appears from afar to be a succesful national amat.

Also Congrats to those that qualified and finished. It will surely be a week you will never forget. Especially for the one that goes in the books as the winner. !!!


----------



## bfarmer

Congratulations to Chad and Trav!! Very Impressive!
Bobby


----------



## dogcommand

Whoooo a yellow dog wins!


----------



## tshuntin

way to go Chad and Trav!


----------



## Guest

Congratulations Chad and Trav


----------



## outdoordave

Who won?????


----------



## Rick_C

Congrats Chad and Trav!!

Unbelievable to go back to back with different dogs, father and son no less!


----------



## Sabireley

Way to go Chad and Trav! Back to back with father and son. Nice!


----------



## Rick_C

outdoordave said:


> Who won?????


 *109. PADDLE CREEK'S PACK YOUR GRIP, LM, Chad Baker*


----------



## Breck

WOW, Another NAFC for Chad, congratulations!


----------



## jenbrowndvm

CONGRATULATIONS TRAV AND CHAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Way to go and nice to see a yellow on the table. So happy for you both!


----------



## Chris Videtto

Super congrats to Chad and Trav....and everyone else!!! Outstanding!


----------



## Erin O'Brien

Huge congratulations to Chad and Trav! Congratulations to all the finalists too!


----------



## Baby Duck

Wow!!!

Congrats Chad and Trav. What an accomplishment !!!


----------



## Jay Dufour

Congrats Chad and all Finalists as well as workers,judges,AND BLOGGERS ! Very thrilling week !


----------



## Paul Brown

Congratulations Chad and Trav and all of the finalists. I sure have enjoyed following along here on the RTF.


----------



## EdA

To win one is special, to win two is spectacular, to win back to back with father and son is unimaginable, congratulations Chad, you are special!


----------



## Bridget Bodine

CONGRATS CHAD!!! Grady babies UNITE!!!


----------



## dogcommand

Congrats to Chad and to all of the finalists. Well done!


----------



## BonMallari

Congratulations to Mr Chad Baker, definitely enter the record books with that win..well done young man


----------



## ErinsEdge

Congrats to Chad and Trav and the breeder who was the first to breed to Grady and before he titled, TR.


----------



## Billie

Anyone know how old our new NAFC is?


----------



## Chris Atkinson

Wow....wow...wow!

The history books just got a really cool twist.

Chad Baker - and all who play a role in Trav's (and Grady's) training and successes - congratulations!

This is truly a storybook finish.

Chris


----------



## jenbrowndvm

EdA said:


> To win one is special, to win two is spectacular, to win back to back with father and son is unimaginable, congratulations Chad, you are special!


Beautiful sentiment! Can't imagine what he is feeling - but I am sure it is beyond elation. He loves those dogs -- and obviously it is mutual, with the performances they have put in for him in consecutive years.


----------



## Billie

Billie said:


> Anyone know how old our new NAFC is?


He sure is good lookin'!


----------



## jenbrowndvm

Billie said:


> Anyone know how old our new NAFC is?


Trav is 4 - almost 5 - born 10/5/2007


----------



## thebigcat

Billie said:


> Anyone know how old our new NAFC is?


He was born 10/07 so hes not quite 5 yet!


----------



## allydeer

congrat chad and trav. and chalk up another one from right start kennels.


----------



## Chris Videtto

Trav only had 22 picks on EE's National AM Pick em!


----------



## BonMallari

and a Yellow dog to boot....just think that Grady's stud fee went into the same category to shares of Berkshire Hathaway Preferred A..


----------



## Billie

thebigcat said:


> He was born 10/07 so hes not quite 5 yet!


Incredible! Speaks worlds for his training AND his breeding too. Proud to have a Grady daughter. Never will see a national but she is a fun little girl.


----------



## Shayne Mehringer

EdA said:


> To win one is special, to win two is spectacular, to win back to back with father and son is unimaginable, congratulations Chad, you are special!


He is definitely special. Good dude. Moral, ethical, and would do anything for anyone. That man loves his dogs and deserves the success. Congrats Chad, Dad Grady, and Trav.

Following the National almost makes me want to go to a field trial... almost. 

Great coverage by the RTF crew as usual. Just remember who invented the live National play by play on the internet, sitting in a Montgomery Tx barn with Uncle Jerry. Drake won that year i think. RTF has come a long way since then!!! Thanks to all who contributed.

SM


----------



## thebigcat

BonMallari said:


> and a Yellow dog to boot....just think that Grady's stud fee went into the same category to shares of Berkshire Hathaway Preferred A..


Exactly! I feel lucky to have just bought two Grady sired females. Congratulations to Chad, Grady, Trav and all those involved in their training. He's got one hell of a team at Paddle Creek!


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B

Chad you and Trav and Grady have like to have gave me heart failure....LOL. I wanted so bad to root out loud for the Baker boys but was scared to jinx you all. To win back to back with father and son is a HUGE statement to the commitment to all you do well. It is nice to be able to say I threw birds for 2 NAFC's.


----------



## cakaiser

Congrats to Chad, NAFC Trav, and daddy NAFC Grady! And to the Lardy camp!


----------



## Annette

Huge Congratulations Trav and Chad


----------



## Karen McCullah

Chris Videtto said:


> Trav only had 22 picks on EE's National AM Pick em!


I picked him! There should be EXTRA points for that, like odds or something 
Congratulations to Chad and Mark....I saw Mark run Trav in Chattanooga last month and was amazed...hence the pick!


----------



## Dan Wegner

It was my pleasure to throw the long retired in the 10th for this group of dogs and especially for new NAFC Traveler!


----------



## CHMHFCR

What a fabulous conclusion and what an amazing team! I think most of us would give our eye teeth to be able to achieve this accomplishment, and I think that it gives most of us with Grady kids something to strive for. Proud of all those involved to make this happen. Congratulations!


----------



## Eric Fryer

Congrats to Chad, Traveler, Grady and the rest of the finalists... what a fun week! And yes one of those 22 picks was mine. I did not come close to winning, but did the best I have ever done. Thanks to retriever results. 
Again Congrats NAFC Traveler


----------



## EdA

Does anyone without ties to the old South have any idea what "pack my grip" refers too, it has nothing to do with hand shaking


----------



## jenbrowndvm

EdA said:


> Does anyone without ties to the old South have any idea what "pack my grip" refers too, it has nothing to do with hand shaking


I think it means to "pack your bag (suitcase)" - thus the call name Traveler?


----------



## Rainmaker

Congratulations to Chad and his two NAFCs, what a high that must be.


----------



## mleenp

In some gatherings of people "packing your grip" refers to carrying a gun. Much like calling your teeth "your grill". I live in the midwest so this may have different meanings across the nation.
- Matt


----------



## Sharon Potter

Wow...just wow! Big congrats to Chad and Trav...back to back wins with father and son. That certainly guarantees Grady a place in the history books (like he hasn't already earned it three times over!  ) And Trav cements the legacy...this is just so cool! Again, my congrats to all!


----------



## Sharon Potter

And now I see that not only did Chad just win his second NAFC...he also won the Pick 'Em!


----------



## EdA

In the old South "grip" was a word for suitcase or bag, I know this from my mother who used the term and I have not heard or thought of it for years, apparently Chad has similar relatives to mine even though our only commonality is the old South.


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## Breck

Maybe Chad had a premonition when he named the dog that he was going to be packing a bag and hitting the road a lot. lol


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## Rick_C

Sharon Potter said:


> And now I see that not only did Chad just win his second NAFC...he also won the Pick 'Em!


When you're on, you're on.

Quite the ride. Congrats again Mr. Baker. Good luck in the National Open.


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## ReedCreek

Amazing, simply amazing - the baton has been passed from father to son!!! Huge, Huge Congratulations to Chad and Trav and to Grady for all he is doing for this breed and sport and the legacy he is leaving! I am so proud to own one of his daughters!


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## Eric Fryer

Chad needs to buy a lotto ticket everything he touches turns to gold.... looks like he won the pick'em too!


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## Jamee Strange

Wow!! Like everyone has said, back to back wins and with father and son is AMAZING!!! I think anyone that has tried to say Grady is not a top producing sire gets to put their foot in their mouth! Congrats to Chad Baker and all those that finished!! Definitely makes you dream big!


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## frontier

Congratulations to Chad Baker. Isn't this the first yellow NAFC since NAFC-FC MD's Cotton Pick'n Cropper (1993)?


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## tripsteer1

congradulations chad, what a great accomplishment. I do not have a Grady pup, BUT I have a Pirate pup and happy to have him...pretty good old boy... pirate is.


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## Jamee Strange

Do they ever come out with other placements? Or is it just a 'this dog won and that's it' kind of thing??


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## Dogtrainer4God

Dan Wegner said:


> It was my pleasure to throw the long retired in the 10th for this group of dogs and especially for new NAFC Traveler!


No pressure aye Dan? lol Congrats to the new NAFC!


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## Guest

frontier said:


> Congratulations to Chad Baker. Isn't this the first yellow NAFC since NAFC-FC MD's Cotton Pick'n Cropper (1993)?


NAFC "Cutter"


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## Baby Duck

Ok what other sire / offspring have won nationals so close with same owner??

I know of '05 NFC chopper/ '06 Nafc carbon ,off top of my head. 

Are there any others without going back and searching that people know of ???


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## Rick_C

Jamee Strange said:


> Do they ever come out with other placements? Or is it just a 'this dog won and that's it' kind of thing??


Only one placement, the winner, for both national events. All other dogs that complete all 10 series are National Finalists.


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## zipmarc

Rick_C said:


> Only one placement, the winner, for both national events. All other dogs that complete all 10 series are National Finalists.



And it's a great honor and achievement to be a National Finalist - no ranking needed!


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## BonMallari

Baby Duck said:


> *Ok what other sire / offspring have won nationals so close with same owner??*
> 
> I know of '05 NFC chopper/ '06 Nafc carbon ,off top of my head.
> 
> Are there any others without going back and searching that people know of ???



2XNAFC FC Ebonstar Lean Mac - June 2000 owner Sherwin Scott

NFC Maxx's Surprise - Nov 2000 owner Sherwin Scott


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## ReedCreek

BonMallari said:


> 2XNAFC FC Ebonstar Lean Mac - June 2000 owner Sherwin Scott
> 
> NFC Maxx's Surprise - Nov 2000 owner Sherwin Scott


....and Lean Mac is Grady's grandfather.....the legacy goes on and on and on. Oh, let's not forget that Grady was 2008 Top Open Dog at only four years old!


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## TIM DOANE

Chad did you really enjoy having your mug on the cover of RN that much ;-) Congrats to you and the young fella !!!! Gotta feel pretty good going to the Nationals with 2 dogs that just finished the Am Nat.


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## Jay Dufour

Hahha Clicked on Blog first thing this morning..........uh its over....Congrats again.


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## EdA

Anyone else notice that of the 15 Finalists 2/3 had numbers in the 80s-100s?


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## tracyw

ReedCreek said:


> Amazing, simply amazing - the baton has been passed from father to son!!! Huge, Huge Congratulations to Chad and Trav and to Grady for all he is doing for this breed and sport and the legacy he is leaving! I am so proud to own one of his daughters!


Well said, Patti! We were so proud of Grady and Trav making to and completing the 9th series...just awesome but when Grady didn't get called back we were crossing our fingers for Trav and Chad. Wow, just wow...we are so excited for them! I too am proud that I own one of Grady's daughters and Trav's half sister!

Congratulations to Chad and Paige, Jim Van Engen (Right Start Kennels), Mike Lardy (Handjem Retrievers), and the other pros helping these amazing pros. I know Chad selected the best pros for his dogs but he also poured himself into their training too! Congratulations to all!!!


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## Bridget Bodine

ED Do you think that is because conditions favored later #'s in a given series? or is the no rhyme or reason to it?


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## EdA

Bridget Bodine said:


> ED Do you think that is because conditions favored later #'s in a given series? or is the no rhyme or reason to it?


One can only wonder, it would be interesting to look at 20 years of Nationals to see if there was a consistent pattern, not any specific numbers but rather clusters of Finalists.


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## Leitner Farm Labs

*Congrats to Chad and TRAV what a feat !!!!!!!!!!*


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## frontier

Thanks Melanie...forgot about Cutter


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## Dan Wegner

Just noticed that the RN blog shows Grady as a finalist... Would have been nice to see Chad playing with both dogs in the tenth, but it didn't play out that way, despite the blog report.

Congrats again to Chad, Jim VanEngen and Trav. Absolutely Awesome!


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## Andy Carlson

I saw that too and sent a comment to RN about that last night - guess they have been too busy to remove Grady's name and to the list the winner


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## EdA

The list of Finalists under the picture is the list of 24 called back to the ninth, quite an error for the official publication of the two National clubs.


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## ErinsEdge

EdA said:


> The list of Finalists under the picture is the list of 24 called back to the ninth, quite an error for the official publication of the two National clubs.


I think we should all "comment" on that on the blog.


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## Angie B

ErinsEdge said:


> I think we should all "comment" on that on the blog.


There ya go Nancy!!!

Angie


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## mjh345

EdA said:


> One can only wonder, it would be interesting to look at 20 years of Nationals to see if there was a consistent pattern, not any specific numbers but rather clusters of Finalists.


I gotta believe we would see a pattern of clustering, its just the nature of the beast that wind, weather, lighting etc change throughout the course of running a trial, making it more favorable conditions for a period of time to certain groups of dogs; relative to the conditions when other clusters of dogs run. 

You see it at most weekend trials. Whereas I know the weekend trial is more condensed{4 series over 2 or 3 days}, and one hickup and you're usually gone callback standard, making the impact of condition change potentially more pronounced; I'd be willing to wager that on the real ball buster series in this Nat Am that the conditions on average for the dogs in the 80s-100s were on average better than what the rest experienced


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## ReedCreek

Two years in a row the Natural Amateur has been won by dogs trained by Jim Van Engen - it's gotta say something about giving your dogs the "Right Start": add to that Chad's continuing diligence in keeping the standard of training up with both himself and his choices in All Age trainers (Lardy Team for his dogs) and there is a winning combination - just sayin' - not the only way...but a proven way !!!


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## zipmarc

EdA said:


> The list of Finalists under the picture is the list of 24 called back to the ninth, quite an error for the official publication of the two National clubs.


I was wondering about that, but have already sent in enough comments to correct prior errors (which were corrected), that I thought I would pass on this one.


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## ErinsEdge

It's corrected


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## byounglove

A very exciting national for Jerry and I! Great grounds, great tests, great judging, great organization! When was the last time a husband and wife both were finalists if ever? We are thrilled to say the least !
Barb


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## Baby Duck

Great acomplishements Barb and Jerry. 

Only other I know of is Mac and Lynne Dubose

Mac won with zinger at 2002 NRC
Finished with tiger 
And Lynne finished with choo choo


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## Angie B

byounglove said:


> A very exciting national for Jerry and I! Great grounds, great tests, great judging, great organization! When was the last time a husband and wife both were finalists if ever? We are thrilled to say the least !
> Barb


Hey Barb,,,, I would have shook my pom poms earlier for you and Jerry but I hadn't been over to the site to look yet today!!! That is HUGE!!!! Congratulations to you both!!!!

Angie


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## Andy Carlson

Congratulations Barb and Jerry!! You all did great!! See you later this summer in Iron Bridge?


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## Guest

Congratulations Chad and Trav! Revel in the moment...again. 

And of course congratulations to all that qualified and especially to those who were finalists.


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## Scott Adams

Barb & Jerry did it while also being a big part of the work & organization of this National. Congrats.
I saw a Trav run a few of the tests. I'm not surprised that he won. Congrats Chad.


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## TonyRodgz

ReedCreek said:


> ....and Lean Mac is Grady's grandfather.....the legacy goes on and on and on. Oh, let's not forget that Grady was 2008 Top Open Dog at only four years old!


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## BonMallari

byounglove said:


> A very exciting national for Jerry and I! Great grounds, great tests, great judging, great organization! *When was the last time a husband and wife both were finalists if ever*? We are thrilled to say the least !
> Barb


in the same year, maybe twice, once by the DuBose's, and maybe the Paterno's

in separate years I would think the Hays,Walker's, Brown's,Erwin's,and of course the Belmont's


But more important a BIG CONGRATS to the two of you on running a great trial and being Finalists


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## laker

How about a shout out to NFC-AFC Candlewoods Something Royal and Ken Neil. I believe she will be 11 years old within a couple months!! 

Also RTF'er Dave Didier with Stella. That little gal did a great job...Lots of heart!!!


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## Howard N

> in separate years I would think the Hays,Walker's, Brown's,Erwin's,and of course the Belmont's


Parrot's too.


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## BonMallari

Howard N said:


> Parrot's too.


forgot about them...and also Don and Marion Weiss...


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## EdA

Ted and Patti Fajen, probably not the same year but both were Finalists, certainly in recent time Mac and Lynn set the standard. 

John and Martha Russell, not the same year but NAFC Rose and Pogo


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## Bridget Bodine

I would also like to congratulate JOHN THOMAS and Cane for being a finalist!! Nice!


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## Dave Burton

I posted this about the 5th series. Who would have thunk it!


labman63 said:


> Just a couple thoughts. I'm sure(maybe not) someone has won it back to back but has anyone won back to back with different dogs? How about Sire and pup back to back? Chad is still in with Grady and Trav. Long way to go still but always a possibility. I really don't have a favorite but I think it would be awesome if a pup from last yrs winner won. Chad would probably like that too I'm guessing!


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## Beverly Burns

John Thomas is a wonderful man. Now, what about Ragin Eye of the Storm with 6 first places this season and numerous others and jams. Good thing do happen to good people and John definitely deserves this great dog.


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## Brian Cockfield

Beverly Burns said:


> John Thomas is a wonderful man. Now, what about Ragin Eye of the Storm with 6 first places this season and numerous others and jams. Good thing do happen to good people and John definitely deserves this great dog.


Mr. John is a fine gentleman and an ambassador of the sport. His property is incredible and he is very generous with the use of it for field trials and hunt tests. I am very happy for John and Bobby Davidson, Cane's co-owner. Cane has had an awesome trial season.


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