# "The Smell of Fear"... Or, "The Smell of Trials" Adrenaline and its impact on dogs



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

*"The Smell of Fear"... Or, "The Smell of Trials" Adrenaline and its impact on dogs*

The topic of heeling, or lack of it at a test or trial has caused me to create a new topic. This is the smell of a trial - and why it has such a bearing on how our dogs behave at a trial.

How many times have you heard, or read that "Dogs can smell fear"? Do you believe it? 

How many times have you observed, when you pulled your vehicle up to a test or trial in progress, that your dogs could sense it, immediately? How do you think they know it?

Here's my belief: If we were to take an experienced Field Trial or Hunt Test dog, who knows the excitement of fliers, live guns, Field Trial Poppers, marks, holding blinds, judges yelling "guns up", etc. and turn off their eyes and ears, they would KNOW they were at a Field Trial the moment we pulled the vehicle into the scent cone of the event. I'm totally convinced of it. If these dogs suddenly became deaf and blind, and were transported to a trial, they would KNOW it by scent alone.

A Field Trial atmosphere, to a dog, smells like a total soup of awesome scents that our dogs associate with the ecstasy of a Trial atmosphere. There's spent gunpowder and all that. But more importantly, there's the scent of adrenaline and other associated scents that other dogs AND their human counterparts, emit when they are under stress or excitement. 

I've had the luxury and benefit over the past few years of training with, hanging out with and observing K9 Law Enforcement guys. Around here, these guys will use the same dog (frequently a Belgian Malanoit) for: bite work, substance detection, article search and tracking. These are all associated and similar tasks, yet with their own unique nuances that make them separate and require specific training.

One thing that these dogs learn quickly is how to smell "fear" or adrenaline in a "street" situation. It is likened to how our dogs quickly learn to discriminate between shot birds and non-shot birds, or how they quickly learn to associate awesomeness with the smell of a shot flyer station. 

At first, I was confused as to how a trained tracking malanoit could walk through a crowded festival and track the scent of a badguy who just ran from a stolen car, through a huge group of people. How can this dog follow the scent of this one bad guy, while there are other people ALL OVER the place? 

The reason, of course, is that this badguy is emitting all sorts of unique scents from his body that smell totally different from the calm, happy, innocent people that share the same space as him. Adrenaline, sweat, and other chemicals or hormonal secretions are all causing this bad guy to give off a scent that to a K9's nose, is like an olfactory neon sign!

I have no scientific proof and no studies to point to. But I believe it is logical and totally accurate that our dogs give off the same sorts of chemical scent signatures when they are excited, pumped up, charged go get a bird, etc. Not only that, but that crate of fliers...those stressed mallards that are getting popped at the flyer station...same deal. They are giving off all sorts of incredible scent. And to take it further, the nervous handlers who are stumbling, fumbling and trying to remember to breathe and not screw up....they too are giving off their own scent, much different from that of a calmer person training in a training atmosphere.

It is so hard, no matter how much we yell, play recordings, plant fake judges or put out holding blinds to truly mimic a trial atmosphere. A big reason for this is the _*scent of a trial*_. 

I believe this is a major factor in the "Bohn Principle" that is being implemented by East Coast Trainer Randy Bohn to rehab maniac field trial dogs BACK into tractable field competitors - for the pro AND for their handler. The whole thing, I believe, is the maintenance of a standard in varied conditions. I read recently, as someone put it, that if a dog "gets away" with a behavior 3 times, we have just inadvertently trained that dog to do that behavior. This makes sense to me.

So if we allow an obedience standard to slip, in an atmosphere where there's a whole soup of scent, among other special situational differences between this setting and our more common standard training settings, we are essentially training that dog that the standard is out the window.

I don't have the answer. I think I have some clue. I think Field Trial settings, to a dog, are a neon sign of scent that can make their brains go haywire if we don't gradually introduce distractions while maintaining a standard. --- Easier said than done perhaps.

Good training, Chris


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I agree with all of the above Chris.
And I feel the "smell soup" is the hardest thing to train for.
This alone is reason to be a retriever club member.
'cause while all by ourself we can run Rover 400 yards with just a bumper and a dvd by Dennis.
It does nothing to help the cold wet spot 6 inches from his brain.

So many will treat the dog like a family member and stop thinking like a dog.
Yes a few may kneel with setting up a mark, but how many get right down into that high drive retriever crouch zone?
Even fewer. And that is just sight, not sound nor smell.

Oh, and when you walk to the line sure your going to crash and burn, you will.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Chris, 
I agree with all of your points. An experienced OB trainer/handler said as much to me. She carried a tin of Altoid breath mints and always popped one in her mouth before going into the ring. Said it masked the "smell of fear" in her breath. I've done the same for years. Have no idea if it works. But the routine helps calm me down. 
I'm always amazed at our dogs' scenting prowress and their ability to differentiate. My now past golden gal tracked a wingshot hen mallard through resting flocks of resident birds, ignoring all until she finally swam down the wounded bird. I just sat in awe and watched for the 1/2 hr as she cruised around the pond searching out the hen who would try to hide among the resting flocks. And at a recent club trial the live gunners completely missed the drake thrown. The bird hit the ground but would not fly. My boy ran right to it, sniffed and proceeded to hunt for something that had been shot. (Our training pond has literally 100's of resident geese and mallards and the kid routinely had to pick up birds while swimming through the resident flocks.) The judges retrieved the bird, saw that it had not been shot and gave us a rerun. We've since worked on retrieving live birds.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Worthy of a Sticky.

Thanks Chris


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

Our club offers training sessions that pretty much mimic a test atmosphere. We will run 40-50 dogs through each session and it is set up with holding blinds, decoys for HT set ups, judges calling dogs to line, a gallery, etc. The dogs react as if they were at a test, very excited, obedience goes down the tubes. It has been an excellent opportunity for our members to get practice and get some corrections in. Only thing lacking is the handlers stress, which really will only happen when it counts.

The sessions at least give handlers the ability to see what problems they will have and it gives them the ability to get comfortable on line with their dogs. 

I have seen many dogs, my own included, get screwed up by my nerves and failure in judgement day of the trial. I work very hard at projecting confidence and quiet authority when I head to line.

DWn


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

To Good Dogs 
I have seen this at NAHRA tests where they lay a track with a live duck, then drop a dead duck at the end of the trail and some dogs keep looking for the live duck and won't fetch the dead one until told to. I have trained for this by dragging a trail with one duck and dropping another. It is absolutely amazing how detailed dogs scenting abilities are.

Dawn


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks Chris for this post. You are right, they really know the difference. I cannot get my girl to creep or break at a training day, but man get to a hunt test and she really knows the difference. She has very strong OB and heels really well anytime other than at a hunt test. She still heels but not near as tight as any other time, and I just never know if she is going to sit and stay on honor. I can go off the grounds and work on a problem 10 min before she runs and all goes out of her head at the line.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

mostlygold said:


> Our club offers training sessions that pretty much mimic a test atmosphere. We will run 40-50 dogs through each session and it is set up with holding blinds, decoys for HT set ups, judges calling dogs to line, a gallery, etc. The dogs react as if they were at a test, very excited, obedience goes down the tubes. It has been an excellent opportunity for our members to get practice and get some corrections in. Only thing lacking is the handlers stress, which really will only happen when it counts.
> 
> The sessions at least give handlers the ability to see what problems they will have and it gives them the ability to get comfortable on line with their dogs.
> 
> ...


??


I belong to 4 clubs that so the same. From January to present I have been to at least 10 of these and my dog knows the difference between this and a real trial.
?


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

A dog’s primary mode of communication is with his eyes. You can take a pack of dogs for an hour hike and you will see loads of communication going on. You will hear nothing other than leaves rustling from the passage of paws.
Dogs read eye movements, minute posture changes, etc. Mother nature has programmed him to do virtually all his communication with his eyes. It is all about reading visual “tells”. The dog behavior you see at the field trial is triggered by subtle changes in the handler’s behavior. Obviously there are some odor changes also. 
Another example is the dog becoming “electric collar wise”. Generally the signals the dog is reading are the trainer’s subtle behavior changes. When the collar is not present the trainer’s behavior becomes slightly more cautious. His demeanor becomes slightly less commanding. These are the subtle changes that the dog is best equipped and programmed by Mother Nature to read.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

There are those who know the taste of adrenaline.:shock:
If I can taste it, it stands that the dogs can probably smell it.

And I know for a fact they can sense things.
I would imagine adrenaline rushes are easily sensed by the dogs.


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## krazybronco2 (Jan 31, 2013)

i think one of the coolest things about a dogs nose is their interaction with humans. when a dog can tell if a diabetic has low blood sugar it just amazes me. their nose is just awesome.

neat story and could just be a coincidence that my pup may have wanted her head scratched but my pup has never been trained to do the exact thing i just mentioned but my GF is a diabetic and one night watching a movie her blood sugar dropped well belle was laying near her all of a sudden got up (like someone was at the door) but turned toward my GF and started whining and poking her (the poking is normal when she was her head scratched but not the whining). and about that time my gf said she needed some juice to get her blood sugar back up. but for about 15-20 mins my pup would not stop looking at my GF (about the time it takes for the body to recover) before she laid back down. again could have been a coincidence but i think it was my pup was concerned about my GF and knew something was wrong.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Robert, Does this mean you disagree that if one were to turn off the eyes and ears of a seasoned Field Trial or Hunt Test dog, the dog would be able to determine that he/she's at a trial the moment you pull into the scent cone of a trial?

Let's remember the Malanoit's ability to pick the bad guy out of a crowd when tracking. Let's remember the ability of the labrador to slam on his brakes and alert on a small sample of a fertilizer/diesel fuel blend buried 14 inches under the sand. The dogs are not watching the body language of the car theif, nor that of the Al Quida IED planter.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

krazybronco2 said:


> i think one of the coolest things about a dogs nose is their interaction with humans. when a dog can tell if a diabetic has low blood sugar it just amazes me. their nose is just awesome.
> 
> neat story and could just be a coincidence that my pup may have wanted her head scratched but my pup has never been trained to do the exact thing i just mentioned but my GF is a diabetic and one night watching a movie her blood sugar dropped well belle was laying near her all of a sudden got up (like someone was at the door) but turned toward my GF and started whining and poking her (the poking is normal when she was her head scratched but not the whining). and about that time my gf said she needed some juice to get her blood sugar back up. but for about 15-20 mins my pup would not stop looking at my GF (about the time it takes for the body to recover) before she laid back down. again could have been a coincidence but i think it was my pup was concerned about my GF and knew something was wrong.


Dead-on. Cancer, Diabetic blood chemistry levels and more. 

I think many of us do not give credit to or acknowledge how good the dog's scent detection and mental scent sorting are.

Robert Milner, let's think about the British dog that discriminates the running hit pheasant from the dozens of unshot ones that are scrambling in front of him. The trial winner is often the one that continues on the scent trail of the cripple, ignoring the flushing birds.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Scent is a bear!! I know in running hunt tests, the only time, and I mean this, the only time my dog switched is during a hunt test! And it's because of drifting scent off a blind that can pull her off a memery bird in route~! I know, dirt clod drill is needed! Just saying Scent is a huge factor!


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## Jeff Brezee (Nov 21, 2012)

I love it and I'm I'm totally on board with this! The next time my dog unravels at a hunt test I will rest assured that it has nothing to do with my failures as a trainer. It was that pumped-up, nervous guy that ran ahead of me!!!  :barf:


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Of course a dog reacts to odor. Sandia Laboratories did a study in 2002 that determined that a trained explosive detection dog can detect a target odor down in the concentration range of 100 parts per trillion. That in Sandia’s words is “equivalent to one molecule per sniff”. The dog can smell in a manner we cannot conceive of. Of course he responds to odors.
However, the dog’s primary communication mode appears to be visual. This is how he communicates with his peers and with people. “Reading the dog” is visual communication. It goes both ways. The dog reads people as well. The big difference is that dogs read people a lot more readily and more accurately than people read dogs. Though a large portion of human communication is non verbal.
Next time you give a command to a dog, do it with sun glasses on and standing utterly still, with hands in pockets. See what kind of response you get without that subconscious “tell” that probably usually accompanies the command.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rmilner said:


> .....Next time you give a command to a dog, do it with sun glasses on and standing utterly still, with hands in pockets........




no problem,
I'll even have the dog running full speed away from me, downfield a 100 yards.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Ken, I think you are on to a very deep concept here. Notice how the more experienced trainers/handlers on this board seldom use the word, "command"? Yet most newbies refer to the "commands" their dogs have learned and/or respond to. This is kind of an illusive thought, far from being formalized or theorized, but maybe with these retrievers we are shaping their natural desires to suit our ends. So when the "nose" takes over, the communication, via the "eyes", breaks down? Getting too deep even for myself. Anyway, thanks for your post Ken. Anything that gets me thinking this hard is welcome!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Dead-on. Cancer, Diabetic blood chemistry levels and more.
> 
> I think many of us do not give credit to or acknowledge how good the dog's scent detection and mental scent sorting are.
> 
> Robert Milner, let's think about the British dog that discriminates the running hit pheasant from the dozens of unshot ones that are scrambling in front of him. The trial winner is often the one that continues on the scent trail of the cripple, ignoring the flushing birds.



I am diabetic!!

MY DOG only tends to remind me cause,, I get up to get me some kinda sugar,, ususally a Cookie,, She gets half!! Lets not get carried away with this stuff...
She only wants the cookie... If I passed out on the floor,, and droped the cookie jar,,, She wouldnt even care I was in the room, let alone on the floor in convulsions!) Lets not get carried away with this stuff.....

I am convinced that the dogs I have had in the past reacted to how I was at a test!....Totally nervouse,, cant concentrate,, and very anxious! Transferred to the dog.... 
Then someone very important to me came into my life, and told me,,, "If you want to be successful at this training stuff,, YOU have to change EVERYTHING about you"

I think HT triggers things in me that are Undesirable.. Nobody dares talk to me in the holding blind.... If I am bent over after running ,, dont come over to ask if I is alright!!...
If you notice when watching me at the line I am lined up on the wrong bird,,, well ,,,, to be honest there isnt any birds, stations,, or guns,, its all a "white Out"

Gooser (In therapy)


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

A dog's sense of smell is beyond my comprehension. They find not just a particular scent, but the most recent scent, or "hottest" scent. It's what we do with in Utility level obedience with the scent articles, they have to find the one you most recently handled.
They are able to locate a bitch in season in a 100,000 square foot venue full of thousands of dogs, from all the way across the venue. A particular bitch that he has smelled, not just any bitch, and I'm betting there are many there that are in season. 
It just boggles my mind.

(edit to add....on the other hand, he can run right over a chukkar in cover sometimes, just about stepping on it, and just keep on going  )


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Watched a couple of dogs in a HT this weekend respond very nicely to "over" commands on the blind, even though they were totally out of sight and the handler was out of their sight.



rmilner said:


> Next time you give a command to a dog, do it with sun glasses on and standing utterly still, with hands in pockets. See what kind of response you get without that subconscious “tell” that probably usually accompanies the command.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Although I am not discounting the scenting ability of our dogs, I find myself very much agreeing with Robert Milner. 

I believe they primarily communicate by body language, and read us much better than we'll ever read them.

I hate agreeing with someone who makes his living by dissing my dogs. :evil:


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

I still cant figure out how mine know when were going training or hunting. Maybe I look confuse or something. I have tried to trick them and load stuff up the night before, or let them out the door that morning without loading stuff. Then they will stand there stairing at the truck and in the morning go about my normal routine. When I pick up my keys they take off to the door and stand there with their nose on the door knob


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

road kill said:


> There are those who know the taste of adrenaline.:shock:
> If I can taste it, it stands that the dogs can probably smell it.
> 
> And I know for a fact they can sense things.
> I would imagine adrenaline rushes are easily sensed by the dogs.


I was training with a long time dog trainer and we were talking about how there is no real good way to train for a HT. He also said that he believes the dogs can smell the changes in our bodies persperation and and know that it is from being tense. He said to just relax and have fun and let the dog do it's work that we have trained so hard for. What do some of the handlers here do for a routine before hand to stay relaxed and calm before a test. Alot has been talked about dogs at the line but what about handlers being in the correct state of mind at the line? I alway have a good breakfast and one bloody mary. Whats your routine?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Although I am not discounting the scenting ability of our dogs, I find myself very much agreeing with Robert Milner.
> 
> I believe they primarily communicate by body language, and read us much better than we'll ever read them.
> 
> I hate agreeing with someone who makes his living by dissing my dogs. :evil:


I'm not discounting how our dogs communicate. I'm not discounting how our dogs feed off of our body language and cues.

Howard, if you turned off your dogs' eyes and ears, and you drove to a Field Trial, do you think they'd know by smell?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Howard N said:


> Although I am not discounting the scenting ability of our dogs, I find myself very much agreeing with Robert Milner.
> 
> I believe they primarily communicate by body language, and read us much better than we'll ever read them.
> 
> I hate agreeing with someone who makes his living by dissing my dogs. :evil:


Well I believe Milner and Chris are both correct, as well as you Howard
Me agreeing with everyone is highly unusual, but I believe you all are saying different; but correct things

I was involved on the beginning of the program whereby the militarystarted training labs for the detection of IED's. 
That work , historically, was primarily done by Malinois, who were used also as bite dogs FYIon't ever get on the wrong side of one of those dogs or their handlers!!

I always knew dogs noses were incredible, but I learned a lot more so how incredible they are. Books have been written on it, but it is hard to quantify it in terms humans understand. I can't and wont try to describe it in this post. The most unfathonable thing for me is how they can zero in on and discern exactly what they are trained to ID and not be overwhelmed or suffer system overload from all of the sensory information they are simultaneously dealing with. Suffice it to say the dogs nose is an incredible tool that we are underutilyzing and will probably never fully understand.

In that regard I agree with Chris that the FT has an unmistakable smell to a dog. I don't think it can be fully duplicated in a club training day, regardless of how hard we try. You can put all kinds of ingredients in a pot and call it gumbo, but it aint really gumbo without okra. Its a stupid analogy, but what Chris calls Adreneline, I would liken to the okra in gumbo.

I also agree with Mr Milner, and don't think what he says counters what Chris says. Dogs do much communication with us and each other with their eyes. They are also much better at reading us and eye cues than we are at reading them. More so with some than with others obviously


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

road kill said:


> There are those who know the taste of adrenaline.:shock:
> If I can taste it, it stands that the dogs can probably smell it.
> 
> And I know for a fact they can sense things.
> I would imagine adrenaline rushes are easily sensed by the dogs.


Absolutely I agree, 100%. I've heard handlers talk about popping a breath mint before taking dog from the truck....however they never take pains to do the same thing in training!
Had a training partner who's dog would only break in trials and then he would break in 100% of every test entered. Owner trained in groups and in large groups he trained without a collar...just like at the real thing but he couldn't get the dog to break.

I figured fear was the one thing missing in training and asked him what amount of money would he be unwilling to loose in a bet that his dog wouldn't break in training. Turned out a $1000.00 would have been too much to risk, so I suggested to him that at the next large group training session he bring $1200.00 in cash and give it to the club secretary on the understanding that it will be the club's to do with, no ifs and or buts, if his dog broke at any point during training that day. He never did put that idea to the test and for different reasons he no longer competes but I do believe our dogs can both smell our fear. I also believe, as Mr. Millner wrote they can detect more subtlety in our movements and behaviors than we can imagine.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

yellow machine said:


> What do some of the handlers here do for a routine before hand to stay relaxed and calm before a test. Alot has been talked about dogs at the line but what about handlers being in the correct state of mind at the line? I alway have a good breakfast and one bloody mary. Whats your routine?


I have found that a quick sip of untaxed hot peach brandy prior to running will guarantee your dog will slam the series. Now that I have established that much, I plan soon to test my hypothesis that if a sip is good for a series, chugging the whole jar will guarantee the blue


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

For an insight into what dogs focus on, take a look at this: http://mashable.com/2013/05/05/google-glass-dog/


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Taking away the eyes and ears Chris,
On shoot day's in the winter I can travel up to 50 miles with a truck load in the back with no sight of outside and it's dark when we get home,I have the radio on in the car ,and normally talking crap with a buddy,and having a few cigarettes as well. We can make up to 20 left and right turns with the indicator clicking,and honk the horn at some idiot driver in front,Now I know where I am going but the dogs in the back are curled up and cosy without a peep!..but When I turn of the highway into our estate they all immediately get up and wag the tail,looking out the window.?.....So I am sure they know/do the same on the out run


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

My dogs are so good they can tell the difference between a HT and FT. I believe its because they know the sound of Bubba's beer can's being opened and the sound of me mixing ice in the fancy plastic margarita cups the rich chicks at FT's drink.

/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Howard, if you turned off your dogs' eyes and ears, and you drove to a Field Trial, do you think they'd know by smell?


Chris, I have never had a blind and deaf dog, I don't know what they'd sense.

But, assuming they weren't senile of something, they'd know from the unpaved bumpy road we were out somewhere where good things happened. They would smell all the trucks, dogs, birds, and lord know what all smells come from a group of trialers trucks, that we were someplace exciting. I don't know what they think of trials, or even if they think about trials. They'd still know that they were someplace exciting.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

My 13 year old hates going to the vet always has, It's a bit embarressing but I have to carry a 70 lb through the doors, she gets really nervous , trembles, shakes and I think half her hair falls out, that being said there are 4 ways to get there, it doesn't matter witch way I go and she's in her crate in the back seat ( where she can't see out) she will start this trembling within 200 yards of the building every time, I know she can sense and smell the place, so yes I believe a trial "smells" different than a normal training day


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Well I believe Milner and Chris are both correct, as well as you Howard


I agree with this too - I think its ahttps://www.google.com/search?clien...=1&sa=X&ei=cc-KUfHhCou_ywGtnoBQ&ved=0CC4QBSgAcombination of ALL the senses, they smell, they see, they hear...all of those combined together effect how our dogs behave. And because of they do use all their sense, it makes understanding what triggers a certain dog more difficult - for some smell has a greater impact, for others it body language, for others it's a sound, while some it's sight (try pulling a shotgun out for absolutely no reason at home and tell me dog's don't react). Aren't dogs fun?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> My 13 year old hates going to the vet always has, It's a bit embarressing but I have to carry a 70 lb through the doors, she gets really nervous , trembles, shakes and I think half her hair falls out, that being said there are 4 ways to get there, it doesn't matter witch way I go and she's in her crate in the back seat ( where she can't see out) she will start this trembling within 200 yards of the building every time, I know she can sense and smell the place, so yes I believe a trial "smells" different than a normal training day


Todd,

I have one that just knows "we are almost home" and will start "woofing" in the truck...it doesn't matter if we are going to my in-laws house, to the hotel after a trial, where ever home is, he knows it...

FOM


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> smells like a total soup of awesome scents...


Necessity is the mother of invention.










I apologize for he stupid sense of humor. Nice read


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Chris,
To answer your question on scent, a dog that has been to a particular field trial ground before will certainly recognize it by scent upon returning. If it is a ground he has not previously visited then he will certainly recognize the soup of odors from multiple dog trucks etc. that are characteristic of a field trial. As an aside, odor is a primary facet by which he recognizes a particular person. If I sit a person's dog in the parking lot, put a sack of feed on the owner's shoulder to disguise his gait and walk that person by the dog on the upwind side, the dog will not recognize him. The dog will try to get up and move to the downwind side to smell who it is.

Search and rescue dogs regularly demonstrate some fairly complex odor arithmetic. At a certification test you might typically have an acre or so of concrete rubble with 5 or 6 people buried and waiting to be found. There will also be 10 or 15 people standing around close to or upon the rubble pile. The dog has to catalog the odors and only find the victims that are buried. They pretty much ignore all the visible people standing around. That is a fairly complex odor game.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I think a dog knows he's at a field trial long before they get there, once they have run a few. I think a blind, deaf and hard of smelling dog would know. Dogs are situational. They know when they are in a situation.

Hander Error, never apologize for a sense of humor. Especially a good one!


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

I like the "scent of the field" concept and I think it has value. I also have to agree with Mr. Milner when he speaks about a dog becoming "electric collarwise". We had one that was super smart and became collarwise early on. One of of those pros who claims to be able to fix any dog had him for a year claiming that the dog was being re-programmed. When the dog was finally run by said pro in the Q, the dog acted the same as before. Perhaps the pro was nervous, and the dog smelled the trainer's fear or just picked up on his different movements or behavior. Either way, the dog certainly wasn't ever fixed or cured. I think the more you learn about dogs, perhaps the less you know in the end. They are never boring.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Chris, I have never had a blind and deaf dog, I don't know what they'd sense.
> 
> But, assuming they weren't senile of something, they'd know from the unpaved bumpy road we were out somewhere where good things happened. They would smell all the trucks, dogs, birds, and lord know what all smells come from a group of trialers trucks, that we were someplace exciting. I don't know what they think of trials, or even if they think about trials. They'd still know that they were someplace exciting.



When I first went duck hunting, I would drive over to my buddy's house, and we would load up our dogs and gear in his truck. Then it was off to our leased property. There were some Rail Road tracks about a half mile from our blind. His dog, Boomer, a seasoned veteran, would sleep on the hour or so drive to our blind. But, once we crossed those tracks, she would start whining like a mad woman. She knew we were close to fun times.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

When I return home and let my dogs out, I guarantee you that if I have stopped at the butcher shop, for dogbones, they know it. HPW


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

There is an interesting book called "Inside of a Dog" that talks about a dog's senses, and also about how dogs evolved into phenomenal observers, and manipulators, of even the most subtle of human behaviors. I know I am well trained


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

This thread is way to heady for me, a child knows the difference btw grandma's and home, despite training


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

I have heard that before a test take a bath in tomato juice and it masks your smell of nervousness.


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## Noah (Apr 6, 2003)

Plants bend to the sun..ticks sense minute changes in the ambient temperature when warm blooded animals pass..spiders sense vibrations a seismograph couldn't read..fish feel the vibration of a single bait fish as it swims by..a raptor can see a mouse undercover from a mile high..dogs can sense the onset of an epileptic seizure before their brainwaves change..my dogs hear a slice of cheese being unwrapped in a 40 mph crosswind through cattails..to argue which sense a creature relays on the most is...um..futile..they use what is available to their best advantage.


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## Duck Blind (Dec 11, 2010)

yellow machine said:


> I have heard that before a test take a bath in tomato juice and it masks your smell of nervousness.


Just sent my wife to the store to pick up 5 gallons. I'll try anything. LOL!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

yellow machine said:


> I have heard that before a test take a bath in tomato juice and it masks your smell of nervousness.


so, it was a bumpy field road to the testing site and some feller splashed his a.m. bloody mary all about himself, then told you that as a cover story.........


hook, line and sinker ay?


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## blinddogmaddie (Mar 7, 2008)

I have to agree with Chris. Having trained a dog that is almost completlely blind and rely's mostly on her scenting ability and watching her through everyday life (7 years), training and running tests, I believe the nose and scent is the main factor on how a dog communicates. Visual is an important part of it, but thats with close encounters.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I was not so much trying to discount the eyes and the ears.

I do feel, though, that most all FT-aware retrievers, if driven to a trial in a dog box that they could not see out of, in a noisy box or with music playing (so they could not hear guns and such) would know by smell when they are at a trial.

Chris


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I can travel 1000 miles and my dogs can always sense when we are 2 miles from home, they can be quiet for hours through fuel and airing stops but the barking begins when we exit the interstate close to home.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

My dogs know when we are close to training gounds and when we get close to home.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> I can travel 1000 miles and my dogs can always sense when we are 2 miles from home, they can be quiet for hours through fuel and airing stops but the barking begins when we exit the interstate close to home.


IMO - the number of dogs one works with over the years will change most opinions to "there are no absolutes" . I look back through the multitude of dogs I have owned or vice versa & find the only thing they all wanted to do was retrieve. Each had their own way of preparing for & doing what they loved most regardless of their training. As one observes other dogs, & epecially the great ones, there is a calmness about their preparation that makes them unique competitors.

I approach where I live from 2 directions, conditions are different on both roads, yet before I turn down the dead end asphalt road to our place there is always a woof. 

We owned a boarding kennel many years ago - a dog was dropped off in the PM so they people could leave on their trip the following morning - the dog was kenneled & we all went about our business. The dog beat the owner home, 14 miles, through traffic, he had torn the gate off it's hinges. I believe they have a homing instinct similar to homing pigeons. As long as we kept the dog from the gate he would not bother anything in the kennel. 

We had a heeler who could sense when someone was approaching us who did not have our best interests in mind. 

& a FT prospect that became a real dog, that went up on his toenails at his 1st puppy trial.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

I think that it has a lot to do with the level of excitement of the handler. When I am running a client dog I am cool as a cucumber and the dogs tend to act accordingly. On the other hand, when I am running a personal dog I am like a 17 year old girl on prom night and the dog acts accordingly as well. Same trailer, same kennel, same training. Who knows.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

One of my dogs (Stella) is absolutely a different dog at a trial versus training. She is very compliant while training in a normal routine but also has very little interest. Not to the point of not doing the work with style but nonetheless much less powerful. The absolute best training she gets has been in the pre-national training week that she has received when we have qualified for national events. We come to the pre-nat'l training and it has the atmosphere of a trial - lots of dogs, flyers, tents up, judges in the chairs, a gallery, etc..but she is also wearing a collar so we get timely corrections too. Most important, she is required to go through 3 holding blinds (she hates it) - all akin to the example Chris gave in the initial post but it is a training environment & unlike weekend trials Stella peaks at trial time & stays on a high throughout - just like the pre-national training.

So the more you can make your training like a trial the better, IMO.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

My first dog went every where with me . flying to visit, to work every day I was in (construction back then),,and on dates. We were literally inseparable. One weekend I left to go on an elk hunt and tied the dog up with a logging chain knowing he would try to escape. My room mates received a call the next day from the home owners where I had been working ,,,telling them that my dog was sitting in their front yard howling. This was about 3 miles from where I was living and I did not take the same route every day.

Years later I left the dog with a friend for a week because I could not take him with me. The dog escaped and went home 8 miles away where he was found by my friend.
Thats the condensed version

He was my first and a great bud for a teenage boy.

Pete


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

A PM Request to find this thread was received so I'll bump it.

To find it, I just used the regular RTF search, clicked on advanced search.

For username I entered my name.

For the search field I typed "scent of a trial". Up it came as the first item in the search.

Chris


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

I always thought my dogs knew we were going to a hunt test when they saw me write a check


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## ericbehrend (Jan 2, 2013)

Great article - I agree that they know the difference between big training day and test/trial.


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

Walking a dirt road pheasant hunting we came on a set of tracks from right to left across the road. The wind was also from right to left so we were definitely upwind of any birds. What amazed me was my lab knew without any hesitation which direction the tracks were heading and turned to follow them.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

pat addis said:


> I always thought my dogs knew we were going to a hunt test when they saw me write a check


Where's the "like" button!


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## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

I was at what i thought was a particularly hard test this summer, In which the first 8 dogs went out on the land series. Watching these older, more experienced dogs unsuccessfully run the test, i determined that we also would probably not pass. I decided in my mind while walking back to the truck to get the dog, that we would be having a "training" day, and worked the test in my mind. My usual bad case of nerves stopped when i decided we were probably done before we started, and decided to just make it a fun experience, and see where the holes in our training were.

As we stood in each of the holding blinds, the dog was cool as a cucumber, not her usual amped up behaviour.

We ran the test, and were one of 8 dogs that passed it, (and 1 of 3 amateurs). I believe we were successful in part because I was calmer than usual, which reflected in the dogs behaviour. Likewise, later in the season, the dog became progressively more excited at the line, at tests, due in part i'm sure at my amped up dread at wondering which dog was going to show up. She fed on my anxiousness, which i tried hard mask. We are now working hard on cleaning up our line manners issues, in training, in part by scenting the area in front of the last holding blind, and line area,y trying to re-create the smells at a test, and then getting corrections. It seems to be working.... Now if i can just get my nerves under control!~


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Adrenaline is cool and can be very effective. Many years ago, when working on my thesis, the effects of adrenaline on memory proved interesting. Simplified to the essence (no pun intended), adrenaline enhances memories. 

Therefore, in training if we provoke adrenaline releases the long term effects will be beneficial if the action is rewarding and worthwhile. In contrast with the expression "avoiding mistakes" as it relates to dogs vs. trainer confrontations, adrenaline will often create lasting poor behaviors. 

One of the difficulties with retriever training is how to make good behavior exciting. If one could get the dog to produce an adrenaline rush when performing steady routines the skill would be greatly enhanced. However, often times when working on control there are corrections and it is not fun and/or exciting in a manner which is enhanced by adrenaline. Often times the dog is remembering the wrong message. 

Recently, I have begun training a pup using Hillmann's approach and I could not help but notice the rapid development of a stable sit in my pup. She's too young, easily distracted and excitable to expect extended focus.....or so I was conditioned to believe. 

After reflecting on this a bit, what is happening is the "sit" is being quickly alternated with the excitement of chase in almost the same time frame. The key is both are taking place in the same, brief moment. The excitement causes adrenaline to be released and it is still there to enhance the good memory of sit. To say it in another way...sit becomes excitingly positive, rewarded and entrenched as a good memory because of the adrenaline "kick" elicited by the "chase". 

To repeat the "lesson" is not protracted. The proper use of adrenaline is a powerful tool. The phrase "short and sweet" is an excellent description. 

In contrast, if behavior becomes a painful battle of wills and adrenaline is in the mix (which it certainly will be), a dog will remember those incidents "as not much fun". He may obey because of fear, but he also learns there is nothing to fear in a hunt test. His adrenaline enhanced memories are different. It's exciting, there are fewer rules and an entrenched, poor behavior is often the end result. 

Adrenaline at the wrong time can undo "good stuff".


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I definitely agree with your theory Chris A. More than likely a combination of the sights, scents and smells but owning a test wise dog, and being a nervous handler, I've felt this first hand. She has to be picking up on my apprehension. I've never been that good of a handler because of nerves. Put up an entry fee and a pair of judges behind me and everything I've learned over the past 10 years goes out the window, especially my sense of timing. I have run a few hunt tests in the exact same places that my (large) retriever club trains monthly and failed set ups my dog has done for years and knows backwards and forwards, because she's well aware that disobedience there have no consequences to her. How does she know? 

But she does know and there is no doubt in my mind, even if her box was sight, sound and scent-proof, she would know as soon as she stepped out of the truck, even if we parked in the exact same spot and there was the exact same set up she's done at a training day in that place. Even worse, she heels on and off lead well enough to get obedience passes yet often she won't at a test, and for a year she stuck on the last bird. With help from some very experienced friends, we were able to fix that with an, ahem, rather unconventional training method even though we were never able to get her to stick on a bird at home.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Oh how this thread hits home with me.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

KwickLabs said:


> Adrenaline is cool and can be very effective. Many years ago, when working on my thesis, the effects of adrenaline on memory proved interesting. Simplified to the essence (no pun intended), adrenaline enhances memories.
> 
> Therefore, in training if we provoke adrenaline releases the long term effects will be beneficial if the action is rewarding and worthwhile. In contrast with the expression "avoiding mistakes" as it relates to dogs vs. trainer confrontations, adrenaline will often create lasting poor behaviors.
> 
> ...


Excellent points!

I believe with biddable retrievers, you can teach good line manners with this adrenaline rush...they get a live flyer reward the instant they behave with good line manners:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1cPpWXeFnc


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

EdA said:


> I can travel 1000 miles and my dogs can always sense when we are 2 miles from home, they can be quiet for hours through fuel and airing stops but the barking begins when we exit the interstate close to home.


Several years ago we were racing pigeons out I-80 or the west course. One of my birds went down in State Collage, 2 hours from home . The people that found him did some research by looking at the racing band on the birds leg and contacted our club secretary , who then contacted me. 

I called the people and told them I would send a shipping box and money to return the bird. But in the mean time the man who found it owned or worked at a radio station and one of his employs wanted to bring the bird and meet me. 

The racing pigeon was close to death and very lifeless and when then pulled into Bloomsburg which is 20 miles from home and a release point of mine they said the bird started to carry on and was trying to get out of the cage. They pulled into the parking lot and got out with the bird and when the pigeon saw me he went crazy and puffed up and spun circles and voiced his happiness by cooing. 

This folks is just a racing pigeon that was in a back of a van in a crate , knew it was close to home ? - Now think how smart our retrieves are compared to these birds. 

end


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dr. Ed's post fits here:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?114301-How-Dogs-Smell&p=1294590#post1294590


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## miketuggle (Aug 21, 2014)

Chris, that was an _awesome _post!


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## gauge1972 (Oct 27, 2012)

Fantastic read thanks for this post ! I am still a rookie but I have wondered some of the same things you wrote in this post


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bumped in addition to the link in a current thread on bumpers versus ducks in trials and tests.


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

This goes back to my post in that thread. Funny how that works.
i can personally attest to the fear smell and my Belgian Malinios. Well actually, all the Malays and gsd's I've worked. I mainly speak of my current Malloy cause we spent the most time together with the most successful finds and apprehensions.

when we track for training he's "good" cause he enjoys it.

i remember a specific time we were tracking for a robbery suspect who fled from a stolen car after wrapping it around a pole during a pursuit. My dogs tracking was the best I have ever seen. Nose to the ground with minimal casting. Went a couple blocks to a wood line at 0330 hours. Pitch black. There was no circling, no casting and he was moving wth a purpose. Tracked to that wood line, he stopped at the wood line and lifted his head and started wafting. I looked at my cover officer and said he's air scenting. We're close. The dog held his breath and listened. I gave my warnings and took his actions as we are too close to the suspect who has the element of surprise and a position of ambush. I deployed the k9 and about 10 seconds later the suspect was located. What was different from this track then a training track, my adrenaline and energy that the dog could read and yes, the fear of the suspect. His afrenaline, his sweat, his fear. It wasn't a tough track, but I never saw my k9 display such perfect workability.

going back to your thread and the previous one about the real ducks vs fake ones and people telling me I'm wrong, I don't think I am. I'll break it down some more. i firmly.....let me say that again.....absolutely believe a nervous handler during a hunt test can very possibly work a dog up to levels not routinely trained. Absolutely. Now, drop the word nervous and use hyped up, excited, adrenaline ridden, anxious. Shoot, any emotion other then what the dog is routinely used to during training. This can result in less the favorable results from the dogs end. People can tell me the dog knows he's In a hunt test and he gets "emotional" and won't pick up ducks. Bullshit. There may be and probably are outside environmental and psychological stresses that are added that the dog is not used to, pair that will the handlers level of excitement and it's a recipie for other than usual results. 

I think ink the only thing a handler can moderately control is themselves. If they stay as solid and composed as possible, showing real....REAL, not fake confidence, displaying an attitude that they usually show during training is what will result in the best possible outcome. Emotions go up and down a leash, when your having an off day, there's a good hands the dog will to.

for someone to type at their computer and tell me I'm making a guess and don't know what an excited competitive dog is because I have not competed in a field trial or hunt test is, complete bullshit. 

The only difference here, those that compete in field trials and hunt tests with their dogs that experience levels of excitement that claim I have never experienced, train for a test. I work in a situation where You take all those outside influences and multiply them. do me a favor and put yourself in a life and death situation where your dog doesn't just pass or fail a test, but if he fails people get real life hurt, then tell me how to train all those aspects into training come into play. If I know one thing, it's the difference between a training dog and a dog in a real test. And every single influence the op spoke of, is real.

does the dog know he is In a competition, no, will the dog react differently to stimulus he's not used to, absolutely.


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

One other thing, I am by no means devaluing what anyone here does in competition. It's tough stuff. Training a dog and then competition. It's dedication and hard work. I got a little heated bc I was told I don't know excited dogs bc I havnt done retriever trials. What y'all do is keep this sport pure, perfect it and improve it and prove it on a regular basis. I'm here bc I want to compete eventually, bc like y'all I'm passionate and find happiness and joy in watching a dog do what they live to do and merely be a part of their life.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

After all that you are still wrong.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

K9 

I really don't know who you're arguing with or what you're arguing about.

I don't think anybody would disagree that a nervous handler makes a nervous dog. I think we all have seen it and most all of us have done it.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Migillicutty said:


> After all that you are still wrong.


Yup, but they always know better. Some of the handlers here have been doing this for 40+ years. Yes, new or nervous handlers can affect the dogs' performance, but this is different. This is innate and present in the very essence of the dog competing. Look up Dr Ed. I think he knows a thing or two about handling more than a few famous field champions.


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

Obviously I'm a horrible communicator or y'all are my missing my point.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

K9. If your point is 

A). that a nervous handler can screw up a dog, then most all will agree. 

B). That a dog can not tell the difference between a training day and a trial,then the majority will disagree. (I am with the majority as you can guess by the op here). David Didier (granddaddy) gives a good post about this. His point is that pre national training is probably the closest simulation to a trial. It makes good sense. 

C). That a stressed dog in a trial is more likely to not pick up a bumper or a bird.... I don't even know what to make of that. Trials and tests should continue to use birds unless it becomes illegal due to forces outside our sport. 

What at is your point? If you express it as A, B, or C (used the Oxford comma there Jordan!) that would be more clear. 

If if you express it in a sentence, that would make it more clear.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

K9kodi said:


> Obviously I'm a horrible communicator or y'all are my missing my point.


"_I reckon you are probably a good communicator ,you are most probably not saying what they want to hear_"
Polmaise,circa 1998


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

I think we are just all arguing the same point. We call it a competition. Why? because we are testing our dogs against others, we are testing our skills as handlers/trainers against others, and we are competing as a team against other teams. We want the points, we keep score, and we are the judges. Can and do dogs act differently on a competition day, opposed to a training day? Yes. Is this because they know they are competing against other dogs and teams? Is this because Fido wants more passes/points then the next. No. The competition part is for us. The dogs are doing what they are trained to, what they love to and what they live to do....work. We add the stressors of competition on ourselves.
They will perform reliably under known and conditioned conditions and locations. Where the wheel falls off ( its an extreme example) is when there are other stressors involved such as, crowds, other dogs, THE HANDLER BEING NERVROUS, maybe different sounding guns, and most of all.....well maybe not most of all but definitely different locations. Im sure there are others, but Im not fully awake at the moment.
So, the dog can tell somethings different, that difference is what we call competition. Does the dog know its a competition, I don't think so. I do believe that the stressors of the competition for us is what does it to the dogs. A well trained dog will give 100% all the time, or should. I don't honestly know if a dog feels like they did bad or poorly compared to the previous week. I think they just like to go out and give it 100%, pass, fail, points or not. That other part is for us. And I believe its a much needed part. Helps the sport grow, improves the sport, training and hunting aspect. Helps evolve everything. Besides, if it was easy, everyone would do it. Its a test for a reason.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

You still don't get it. You are vastly underestimating the power of the live flyer for a retriever in competition. They don't care about crowds, other dogs, different locations, guns, they care about getting that bird.


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Yup, but they always know better. Some of the handlers here have been doing this for 40+ years. Yes, new or nervous handlers can affect the dogs' performance, but this is different. This is innate and present in the very essence of the dog competing. Look up Dr Ed. I think he knows a thing or two about handling more than a few famous field champions.


I absolutely don't know better, I don't claim to know all or more. That's a pretty bold statement and incorrect in its entirety


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't think I am. The stronger the primary source of attention is the more secondary distractions just become background noise. But discounting secondary distractions such as new training grounds and handlers etc is incorrect. Add to that a nervous or envious handler and the dog reads it. In any type of test


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't think anyone is saying the dog understands the concept of competition, they understand they're at the FT and that life is different at the FT. Things are more exciting for reasons already listened and I doubt there's a dog thats run a FT that hasn't gotten away with something they wouldn't have in training. That doesn't mean they're not giving 100%, that doesn't mean the handler is nervous (do you think Danny Farmer, Mike Lardy, Jim Gonia, etc etc) are nervous every time they walk to the line?


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

No I don't. And don't forget, even the best of dogs still have dog days, you know. Dogs will be dogs sometimes


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Until you saddle up and ride, you're just all hat no cattle.

the reality is no one disagrees the dogs can feel the handlers stress/anxiety, but regardless of that fact dogs soon learn what a trial/test is. To deny that is to deny the intelligence of these animals. Obviously they don't cognitively conclude "I am at a field trial", but they most certainly discern a difference. Horses are the same way, I know as I spent decades competing on a national level with those as well. They know, to deny it is naive. One would think with your experience handling dogs you would give them more credit than you do.


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

I fully agree with you. The more trials the more experience the better the dog will perform. All I am saying is you cannot, as was stated, say dogs "mess" up because they know they are in a test. It is the outside influences that the dog has to perform with. Ultimately, as dogs learn with repition, the more trials they do the more the "feeling" hits em as they see pops loading up the truck and hit the fields. They know, they absolutely know it's time to work. Again, I think we're arguing the same point from different sides of the room


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Gooser, I'm surprised you haven't heard of diabetic alert dogs.

http://www.diabeticalertdog.com

When a person becomes nervous or anxious there is a physiological response. It's commonly referred to the "fight or flight" response. The hormones norepinephrine and epinephrine are released. These hormones cause sweating, heart rate increase, respiratory rate increase, pupil dilation and others. 

There is no doubt a dog can sense that. They can do it by scent and our body language. I don't believe the dog can actually smell fear but if they can detect the slightest change in odor of a diabetic who's blood sugar is dropping they sure as heck can smell you sweat and all the other dogs. When you add that to our nervous body language then you can see why the dog might react differently than usual.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> I have the radio on in the car ,and normally talking crap with a buddy,and having a few cigarettes as well.


you know those will kill you, right? Where would we be on RTF without your videos and uniquely distinctive dialect?


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## sandcastles451 (Aug 4, 2015)

Loved these two insightful videos from (I think) Nova. While the one on time isn't considered absolute science at this point, most of us can relate. (And that dog sure looks surprised and confused!) Together they certainly show an animal that is using all it's senses in it's role working and living side by side with humans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK7wp2xWOo4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftr9yY-YuYU


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

That second video is very interesting. I would have never thought the dog was timing the return of the husband based off smell. I would have bet it had all to do with the timing of the wife coming home.


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## K9kodi (Dec 30, 2015)

When I train diabetic alert dogs the diabetic needs to, ahead of time, when blood sugar levels are low take a swab of her saliva, and store it. Same for high sugar levels. Then the dog is trained to respond when the odor is present. 

Look guys, and gals, I'm not saying y'all are wrong. What in saying is that these dogs are so keen to us, they know our patterns probably better then us. It's a competition, and if you as a human aren't feeling the competitive spirit, which you should, your a rare breed. Your body language may be off to what the dog is normal too, things we don't notice. Dogs are living breathing sensors on the molecular level. To say that these outside factors do not play a role because all the dog wants to do is get a flyer, it's crazy. They all play a role. And the more they compete, the more the dogs experience these factors and more reliable they become. You have essentially turned a full on trial into a training session for the dog. Those body ques, the different pitch in your voice, the other dogs and new people, all the things that are "new" to a dog become more and more of a part of game. If you cannot reliably train in the environment you compete at, competing enough will be your training. You are now conditioning your dog to operate with your competitive spirit. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

K9kodi said:


> When I train diabetic alert dogs the diabetic needs to, ahead of time, when blood sugar levels are low take a swab of her saliva, and store it. Same for high sugar levels. Then the dog is trained to respond when the odor is present.
> 
> Look guys, and gals, I'm not saying y'all are wrong. What in saying is that these dogs are so keen to us, they know our patterns probably better then us. It's a competition, and if you as a human aren't feeling the competitive spirit, which you should, your a rare breed. Your body language may be off to what the dog is normal too, things we don't notice. Dogs are living breathing sensors on the molecular level. To say that these outside factors do not play a role because all the dog wants to do is get a flyer, it's crazy. They all play a role. *And the more they compete, the more the dogs experience these factors and more reliable they become. You have essentially turned a full on trial into a training session for the dog.* Those body ques, the different pitch in your voice, the other dogs and new people, all the things that are "new" to a dog become more and more of a part of game. *If you cannot reliably train in the environment you compete at, competing enough will be your training. * You are now conditioning your dog to operate with your competitive spirit. That's all I'm trying to say.


Just wow, on pretty much that whole second paragraph, particularly the parts I bolded. Pretty much demonstrates you have not yet run HT/FT. It is not arrogance on our part, it is not that we think ours is harder or more valuable than anyone else's pursuits with their dogs, it is because it is different, and people who have not run HT/FT, simply do not understand the difference, and then they come on here and try to tell people who do know what they are talking about that they don't know what they are talking about, which is irritating, then they get all butthurt and pout and say we are snobs, rude or whatever. 

People who use tests/trials to train their dogs tend to go home empty handed. Now, some will enter and use the test to work on something the dog is doing only at tests, like breaking, and will pick up the dog when it breaks, that is one use of a test/trial to "train" and it can be useful, if possibly long term and expensive, simply BECAUSE the training simulations have not been able to replicate a real testing environment for that dog . Testing challenges training, there are no corrections at tests/trials, other than "no, here" and back to the truck. Yes, handlers get jacked and can influence the dog, good handlers try to remain calm and even-keeled, but judges are setting up tests to challenge all those training concepts, many of which are contrary to the dog's natural instincts, particularly water. What smart dog doesn't think it faster and easier to run the bank vs swimming for long distances, to get the bird? What field dog isn't salivating over that juicy fresh duck just shot as a poison bird, but are told they can't have it and must go by it to get some bird they haven't seen? Much of what we train for makes no sense to the dog, conflicts with their instincts/brain, and at a test, they can learn pretty quick, they can give in to those instincts if they want, with no repercussions, other than "no here", and picked up from the test. That can work, to some extent, depending on the dog, but mostly we want the training to carry the dog through the test, not have to use the test to train the dog, since we mostly know how THAT goes. The use of a live flyer adds dimension to tests/trials, in ways some don't understand until they try it. Mixed bags, hen pheasants, etc, they all do their part to influence a test, and you need to train on all those influences to have a prayer at beating other dogs who are being trained on them. Or just be really really lucky to get that super exceptional perfect dog that needs no training, I guess.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Just wow, on pretty much that whole second paragraph, particularly the parts I bolded. Pretty much demonstrates you have not yet run HT/FT. It is not arrogance on our part, it is not that we think ours is harder or more valuable than anyone else's pursuits with their dogs, it is because it is different, and people who have not run HT/FT, simply do not understand the difference, and then they come on here and try to tell people who do know what they are talking about that they don't know what they are talking about, which is irritating, then they get all butthurt and pout and say we are snobs, rude or whatever.
> 
> People who use tests/trials to train their dogs tend to go home empty handed. Now, some will enter and use the test to work on something the dog is doing only at tests, like breaking, and will pick up the dog when it breaks, that is one use of a test/trial to "train" and it can be useful, if possibly long term and expensive, simply BECAUSE the training simulations have not been able to replicate a real testing environment for that dog . Testing challenges training, there are no corrections at tests/trials, other than "no, here" and back to the truck. Yes, handlers get jacked and can influence the dog, good handlers try to remain calm and even-keeled, but judges are setting up tests to challenge all those training concepts, many of which are contrary to the dog's natural instincts, particularly water. What smart dog doesn't think it faster and easier to run the bank vs swimming for long distances, to get the bird? What field dog isn't salivating over that juicy fresh duck just shot as a poison bird, but are told they can't have it and must go by it to get some bird they haven't seen? Much of what we train for makes no sense to the dog, conflicts with their instincts/brain, and at a test, they can learn pretty quick, they can give in to those instincts if they want, with no repercussions, other than "no here", and picked up from the test. That can work, to some extent, depending on the dog, but mostly we want the training to carry the dog through the test, not have to use the test to train the dog, since we mostly know how THAT goes. The use of a live flyer adds dimension to tests/trials, in ways some don't understand until they try it. Mixed bags, hen pheasants, etc, they all do their part to influence a test, and you need to train on all those influences to have a prayer at beating other dogs who are being trained on them. Or just be really really lucky to get that super exceptional perfect dog that needs no training, I guess.






I agree with Mr K9 here. Everything you do around your dog from the first time you pick him up and hold him at 7 weeks till the day it dies is training. I totally agree that running a trial is also training and you would be better off to look at it that way. When you enter a trial hopefully your dog is ready for the level you have entered. As Kim said *"we want the training to carry the dog through the test" * but if not the dog is learning bad habits and cannot be corrected. Tell me that when your going through the holding blinds and the dog tries to peek around the holding blind when a shot goes off and you pull him back and say no sit that is not training. Tell me that when a dog switches and gets a *"NO Here"* that is not training. Why do you start with a young dog in the derby and work your way up? Why is an All Age dog usually not in his prime till 4 to 6 years old? It's because every trial is an experience and they are learning. A trial IS a factor just like any other and something that needs to be learned. Everything you do and say to that dog and the way you act or react to that dog even at a trial is training and you better pay attention to it. You do lots of training to prepare the dog to run a trial and hopefully his education has him well prepared but when the 1st trial day comes along he is learning something new and again you better pay attention to what the dog is telling you because YOU ARE TRAINING. College doesn't necessarily prepare a kid for the real world. Entering the real world or running a trial is just the next level of training.
K9's statement that "*If you cannot reliably train in the environment you compete at competing enough will be your training* is true but can be a scary thing. It can work out if your dog is well prepared and you are aware of how the dog is acting and you react properly but can be your demise if he or you are not well prepared so you better be aware of what is going on and stick to your standards. If you cannot train in the environment what else can you do? You cannot hide your emotions from your dog. If you can you could get away with murder and pass a polygraph test. 
I am lucky that between our 2 hunt test and 2 field trial clubs there are picnics almost every weekend from Feb 1st through the end of April. There is no better training and the people that go there trying to get a ribbon and not looking at it as training are fools.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Steve Shaver said:


> I agree with Mr K9 here. Everything you do around your dog from the first time you pick him up and hold him at 7 weeks till the day it dies is training. I totally agree that running a trial is also training and you would be better off to look at it that way. When you enter a trial hopefully your dog is ready for the level you have entered. As Kim said *"we want the training to carry the dog through the test" * but if not the dog is learning bad habits and cannot be corrected. Tell me that when your going through the holding blinds and the dog tries to peek around the holding blind when a shot goes off and you pull him back and say no sit that is not training. Tell me that when a dog switches and gets a *"NO Here"* that is not training. Why do you start with a young dog in the derby and work your way up? Why is an All Age dog usually not in his prime till 4 to 6 years old? It's because every trial is an experience and they are learning. A trial IS a factor just like any other and something that needs to be learned. Everything you do and say to that dog and the way you act or react to that dog even at a trial is training and you better pay attention to it. You do lots of training to prepare the dog to run a trial and hopefully his education has him well prepared but when the 1st trial day comes along he is learning something new and again you better pay attention to what the dog is telling you because YOU ARE TRAINING. College doesn't necessarily prepare a kid for the real world. Entering the real world or running a trial is just the next level of training.
> K9's statement that "*If you cannot reliably train in the environment you compete at competing enough will be your training* is true but can be a scary thing. It can work out if your dog is well prepared and you are aware of how the dog is acting and you react properly but can be your demise if he or you are not well prepared so you better be aware of what is going on and stick to your standards. If you cannot train in the environment what else can you do? You cannot hide your emotions from your dog. If you can you could get away with murder and pass a polygraph test.
> I am lucky that between our 2 hunt test and 2 field trial clubs there are picnics almost every weekend from Feb 1st through the end of April. There is no better training and the people that go there trying to get a ribbon and not looking at it as training are fools.


It may be training but it is not effective training in the regard that you cannot get a full on correction as you would outside of the trial environment. You can try getting in as much as you think you can get away with in the holding blinds and when you yell "no here", but, dogs learn just how much that is going to mean too. All positive doesn't work for that reason, not in FT, successfully on a large scale, if it did we wouldn't train the way we do, there have to be repercussions for blowing off a cast, returning to old fall, etc. You bet you better be using every aspect of a test as much as you can to train, or at least, not erode too much of the training, and yes, a dog does have to get used to working in that environment, or not, but, dogs do get test wise, do act worse, and there isn't enough you can do to counteract that, AT the test, with many dogs, unless you are also training consistently in between tests. For K9 to say otherwise, which he did, is clueless.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This is a confusing thread. From what has been argued (relentlessly), it appears that if one were to enter and compete often enough, they wouldn't need to train......as much.

Training on the job is often extremely inefficient and very expensive (plus illegal) regards, Jim 

p.s. "Say what, Judge, can I run that mark....again.....from over here? Could you wait 'til I put this e-collar on, too?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

K9kodi said:


> I fully agree with you. The more trials the more experience the better the dog will perform. All I am saying is you cannot, as was stated, say dogs "mess" up because they know they are in a test. It is the outside influences that the dog has to perform with. Ultimately, as dogs learn with repition, the more trials they do the more the "feeling" hits em as they see pops loading up the truck and hit the fields. They know, they absolutely know it's time to work. * Again, I think we're arguing the same point from different sides of the room*


*
*




Totally agree with what you are saying Kim but what I have bolded in K9's post above is what's going on here. It's Kinda like the difference between direct and indirect pressure.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

There is an assumption going on here that dogs learn from training at a trial, and in somewhat of a linear manner, when actually the opposite happens, and is why so many people in HT get in trouble as they progress. There is often an erosion in obedience, and in some dogs immediately, without the necklace. How many times do we hear "he never did that before in training", so if you use running in competition as a training venue, there is no ability to correct and learn other than "NO HERE", which is not specific. With very young dogs and dogs that are run consecutively, it erodes even quicker.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Seems most of the new posts on this thread didn't read the original thread. Complete different topic.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"Complete different topic."_

and two years ago........it is difficult to keep the same train of thought for that long.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Seems most of the new posts on this thread didn't read the original thread. Complete different topic.


The thread was reconstructed half way by Chris.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> The thread was reconstructed half way by Chris.


I saw the post when Chris brought it back. It was a great thread the first time around. This iteration has been interesting to read. 

My only point is that, the current subject matter has almost nothing to do with the title of the thread (or the original content). But, that isn't all that unusal... Carry on😉


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> This is a confusing thread. From what has been argued (relentlessly), it appears that if one were to enter and compete often enough, they wouldn't need to train......as much.
> 
> Training on the job is often extremely inefficient and very expensive (plus illegal) regards, Jim
> 
> p.s. "Say what, Judge, can I run that mark....again.....from over here? Could you wait 'til I put this e-collar on, too?






I don't see that being said at all Jim. If you cannot train in the atmosphere of a trial (direct pressure) then you just better be more prepared than those that do and then the dog will just have to learn how to deal with the atmosphere as it goes (indirect pressure). If it does not go well then you better go back and work on it before you enter another otherwise you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Every trial you run is training hopefully progressing if not you need to train more. Even the best trained dog is learning from every trial they run.*
Nancy it's not so much that you are training at a trial it is more of a trial is training*, again indirect pressure. At HT I have heard " he never does that in training" many times but that is due to inexperience and knowledge on the handlers part. Don't think I have ever heard that at a trial.
Training at a trial (shouldn't say that) learning from a trial makes more sense than internet dog training. I find it very hard to communicate as well as understand internet dog training. So often people read something different into what I am trying to say. That's why I only have 1600 posts since 2003 instead of 6000. On that note it has warmed to a balmy 28 degrees and the sun is starting to peek through the clouds so I better go out and do some real dog training.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> You still don't get it. You are vastly underestimating the power of the live flyer for a retriever in competition. They don't care about crowds, other dogs, different locations, guns, they care about getting that bird.


I agree that a flyer is a huge driver in the excitement and behavior of our dogs in trials. 

I disagree strongly that the crowds, the other dogs,guns etc are not also factors. I think all of these things contribute to the true trial atmosphere. 

The full trial atmosphere is difficult for many of us to replicate in training. Yet many of us shoot flyers in training. 

My my original intent in starting this topic was that our dogs can smell a trial. The trial is a complex soup of scents that dogs learn to associate (quickly) with the ecstasy of trial day. 

As David Didier pointed out, and it makes good sense, probably the best simulation of a trial for many at that level is the full-blown trial training atmosphere created in pre national groups.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Dogs sense a Trial is coming way way before you realize it and way before they smell it. At home you will clue them by doing something you only ever do before a Trial. Could be anything. If your dog is camped out with a pro their clue may be the Thursday truck wash. 
As far as smell you would be surprised the kind of cues they pick up on. 
I have an older retired dog. Haven't been to a Trial or training day in very long time. Few weeks ago driving down 75 to florida, him in back seat, I noticed a big chassis mount towing trailer going the opposite direction. A moment after truck passed my dog jumped up and got a little nutso. Guess we passed right thru scent cone of that 30 dog truck. 
For the most part while trialing may dogs were laid back right up until we pulled off on a 2 track.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_I don't see that being said at all Jim._ 

With that, I am assuming this was probably not the correct time or venue to express sarcasm.


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## Wtrfwl with Ruff (Jul 13, 2009)

Having "competed" in both Hunt Test and K-9 on the street, I see both sides of the argument. I have seen dogs react differently at a test and yes I believe a trial/test can be sensed by a dog. 

Lets use the retriever not picking up a duck example; I can tell you from training with literally hundreds of police narcotic dogs that I have seen some of the best street worthy K-9's "blank" large amounts of drugs the first several times they are exposed to this in a training environment. These same K-9's can run luggage all day long and consistently locate a gram of cocaine but some how get "sensory overload" when it comes to large amount. 

Now take into account trials are "large amounts" of every sight, scent, sound, for our retrievers. I believe there is a similar reaction from our dogs. Throw in the fact that often a K-9 handler does not know the amount or the possibility of "sensory overload" so my opinion is you can take the handler out of the equation.

We often train weekly with as many as 20 other K-9 units from across the state. You can see the excitement, dogs that normally do not bark in the kennel are barking and spinning. I see dogs more vocal and energetic. We try to express on everyone maintain as much control as you can possibly get in training and expect to loose some control on the "Street aka Trial"

I think a high energy handler trainer will often have a high energy dog no matter the sport. We all have experienced the super high energy lab that you have to stop 40 yards before you "expect" him to fade a line. I think the phrase handle a fast dog slow and a slow dog fast was quoted by somebody who understands or picked up that our dogs read and feed off our emotions/actions 

Now after saying the above I can attest to the fact that my street K-9 can and loves to smell fear. You can get 3 people out of a car and he will focus on the person with warrants or the most anxiety. I work in an inner city environment with many smells, sounds, sights, distractions and can tell you that if your are pumping adrenaline "fear" their is nothing about these distractions that distract a K-9. Now take an elderly patient with Dementia and have them walk the same track without any adrenaline or fear and the track just got much more difficult. You will see your dog raise his head off the track for these distractions and you must work through them. 

Chris and I have had hours of conversation discussing the training methods and philosophy between retrievers and police K-9 and never once have we argued. Its awesome that their are so many different methods and ideas. I will tell you having prior retriever training experience has made me successful many times on the streets. Most K-9 officers do not understand little things such as fading with wind, terrain, or hunting\searching the top or bottom of hillside because they have never been informed of these variables. My retriever experience has enabled my to understand how to put my K-9 into the position to succeed. 

You guys and gals are awesome and these "discussions make us all better trainers..


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Wtrfwl with Ruff said:


> Having "competed" in both Hunt Test and K-9 on the street, I see both sides of the argument. I have seen dogs react differently at a test and yes I believe a trial/test can be sensed by a dog.
> 
> Lets use the retriever not picking up a duck example; I can tell you from training with literally hundreds of police narcotic dogs that I have seen some of the best street worthy K-9's "blank" large amounts of drugs the first several times they are exposed to this in a training environment. These same K-9's can run luggage all day long and consistently locate a gram of cocaine but some how get "sensory overload" when it comes to large amount.
> 
> ...






Nice post!


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