# NFC AFC Clubmead's Road Warrior "Fascinating Statistics"



## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

I was doing a little research in regards to Chopper offspring. This is the current derby list information as of the July 08 Retriever Field Trial News (does not include 2007).


Of the 74 derby list dogs, 14 are Chopper puppies......19%.

Of the 14 Chopper puppies to make the derby list they collectively accrued 286 points in 201 starts. Averaging 1.42 points per start. 

The 201 starts account for 144 ribbons, ribbons in 71.6% of the derbies entered.

Those 14 Chopper puppies also accrued 34 wins.

Lastly, 5 of the top 12 (41.6%) derby dogs are Chopper puppies.

Offspring from Chopper's first breeding are already taking home ribbons in all age stakes.

In history, has there ever been a sire with this kind of production record?

Mike

ps. This is why I have two young Chopper puppies and why we have bred Lotto to Chopper.


pss. Other notable sires with puppies on the 08 derby list.... Auggie has 6-113 pts, Ranger has 2-55 pts, Tiger 3-83 pts, Pow 6-96 pts, Patton 2-29 pts, and Fargo 7-80 pts.


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## Rodney Crim (Feb 18, 2005)

mikebeadle said:


> I was doing a little research in regards to Chopper offspring. This is the current derby list information as of the July 08 Retriever Field Trial News (does not include 2007).
> 
> 
> Of the 74 derby list dogs, 14 are Chopper puppies......19%.
> ...


The 2006 Derby champ was sired by his brother....Good genes!


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Thats why lots of us have chopper pups.
________
Public video


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Yes, but breeders should sell those puppies with ear plugs! Yesh!


Deaf Regards-


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

Impressive!
any word on how Chopper is doing?


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

I did not look at the stats.... 

But curious if it's because he was the flavor of the week and so many had his pups (and therefor the market was flooded). OR is he truly a superstud that we should all be falling head over heels for...

Not always willing to jump on the bandwagon regards,
Hand


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Klamath Hunting Gold said:


> I did not look at the stats....
> 
> But curious if it's because he was the flavor of the week and so many had his pups (and therefor the market was flooded). OR is he truly a superstud that we should all be falling head over heels for...
> 
> ...


Don't rule him out just yet. He could throw goldens if matched with the right bitch....

/Paul


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## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

He wasn't the "Flavor of the Month" when I bred Star to him. Although he was very impressive when he was a finalist at the 05 National Am. He did however become popular after winning the National. To my knowledge and I follow this rather close, there has not been a time when the market was flooded with Chopper puppies. As to Hand's question, I believe he is a superstud. Give it one more year (maybe as soon as this fall) and I believe his first breeding will have all age points or titles.

Mike


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Mike, looking at your count of 14, I see that you counted my bitch "Moneybird's Black Magic Marker" in your stats. Her owner and breeding are stated incorrectly in RFTN. Her breeding is FC-AFC Esprit's Power Play x FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine.

It will have a marginal impact on your stats, but in the interest of accuracy...

Having said that, I own an 8 month old male Chopper pup that's pretty nice. I decided to get him after watching a dog on Steve Blythe's truck, "Hit the Road Like a Warrior" now owned by Dennis Mitchell.

Dave Bezesky


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I've got a 3 month old Chopper pup. She can jump on the tailgate by herself. I've never seen a puppy quite like her. I don't know if that's a good thing or not. :lol:


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> I've got a 3 month old Chopper pup. She can jump on the tailgate by herself. I've never seen a puppy quite like her. I don't know if that's a good thing or not. :lol:


Have I told you the story about my Ruckus..... he brought ruckusing to a whole new art form.... he was such a PIA as a puppy, he'll probably end up being my best dog.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Hmmmm, I know another wild Chopper pup and the intial comments from my Pro was "He's a handful, but I like him." That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.....but the proof will be down the road in a couple years, he's still a puppy......

FOM


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

mikebeadle said:


> I was doing a little research in regards to Chopper offspring. This is the current derby list information as of the July 08 Retriever Field Trial News *(does not include 2007).
> *
> Of the 14 Chopper puppies to make the derby list they collectively accrued 286 points in 201 starts. Averaging 1.42 points per start.
> Mike


Mike, the list would contain dogs that obtained points in 07' if the dogs birthday is later than 01/01/06. Your number of 286 points does include points earned in 2007 for some of the competitors. If you were to only use points earned in 2008 that number would be 176 points; impressive regardless of how it's counted. 

Because the list is only thru the end of May I'm sure we'll will see changes including more Chopper pups. You asked about historical records. There have been a few studs this decade that have put 14 progeny on the list in a single year. 
Lyle


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Chopper is a young sire, off to a good start. The proof will come later when we start tallying AA offsprings and National qualifiers/finalists. It looks promising.

That was one of the things with Auggie - notwithstanding his own great trial record, what about his national record and what about his AA progeny?


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## DSMITH1651 (Feb 23, 2008)

Dose Copper Have A Web Site And Is He Cem And Eic Clear ?
Thanks Duane


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

Chopper is CNM Clear. Don't know about EIC. I will have a daughter of his tested in the near future.

Laura


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## Olds (Apr 16, 2008)

mike, 

I have checked out your website and you have some real nice looking pedigree's and looks like you have breed to chopper more than a couple of times. what are some of the most pronounced strengths you have seen out of his pups and what are the dislikes as well. one more question, have you ever bred to Cosmo, and if so what if any are the similarities to Chopper pups?


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

DSMITH1651 said:


> Dose Copper Have A Web Site And Is He Cem And Eic Clear ?
> Thanks Duane


No website and never will. Frank and Christine are not in this for breeding and will not campaign their dogs. Breedings have come from breeder inquires due to word of mouth, not advertisements from the Kashavarof's.


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## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

They can mark! I don't know what to say, Riggs (belongs to Jim Schmidt from our Star and Chopper breeding) won 5 of the last 6 derbies he entered. He can obviously understand concepts and can mark well. In quals he took a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, rjam, didn't finish and then another 2nd. Teach them what you want them to do and then on game day go and be competitive. The results speak for themselves. 

The weakness would be vocal issues. Teach them at a young age that quiet means quiet.

Mike


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

FOM said:


> Hmmmm, I know another wild Chopper pup and the intial comments from my Pro was "He's a handful, but I like him." That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.....but the proof will be down the road in a couple years, he's still a puppy......
> 
> FOM


Lainee,
The Yankster is going to have half brothers and sisters by Chopper. We will be breeding KD to him early next year.

I noticed the same thing that Mike did about all the pups on the derby list. I knew there were only 13 instead of 14, but 13 is just dang near as impressive.

Marty


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

mikebeadle said:


> The weakness would be vocal issues. Teach them at a young age that quiet means quiet.
> 
> Mike


In addition to the good marking and training attitude, this is an issue I see with mine. I started getting on him about noise since 8 weeks. I have a yellow that was worse and we worked it out, so I am optimistic. But then again, mine is doubled up on Cosmo, so we'll see...


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## Olds (Apr 16, 2008)

thanks for the input mike. it seems that marking ability has been a consistant quality.


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

I have a Chopper/Star puppy out of the 2nd breeding Mike did.
Noisy - a friend told me after I got him home that Chopper puppies are noisy so we are working on that too takes a LOT of effort.
But he marks, swims, dives into the pond no hesitation. ever since he got here at 8 weeks - birdy isnt the word.
Good looking too, funny , great little noisy b-----er
Smart, remembers to sit when I try to teach him heel.
Cant wait for the teeth to get done so I can FF and get on with it all


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## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

Labhauler, Maggie is what the kids decided to call our girl. The first time we took her to a pond, she hit the water not having any idea how to swim. She dove under the water a half dozen times. Didn't bother her. I guess if we need someone to get the anchor, she'll do it. She has a beautiful water entry. Mike

ps. Last week we had another one of those storms. Wind was in excess of 100 mph.


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

NICE name, Mike - tell the kids. Also tell them Ben is going great guns. He has been to a trial , heard all the commotion, seen the birds go down and is totally unruffled.
Very sociable, loves kids (I wonder why). 
Forgot to mention - he is the cleanest puppy I have had - you did a great job with the potty training. No major accidents at all in the house, always knocks on the door to go out.
He has a great water entry too- I almost fell over laughing when I saw an 8-week old entry like that - all 4 legs up and a dive!


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I have a real nice Carbon bitch that will be a HRCH this fall. 75 lbs., beautigu; dog, very athletic, incredible marker, sitting on GO GO GO all the time. Already talked to Frank and we are going to do a breeding this fall when she comes in. 
This will be a line breeding on Carbon with a NAFC and NFC in the pedigree.
Should be hot pups.
E mail and I will put you on the contact list.

MP


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

We have a litter of Chopper puppies on the ground right now out of our Birdie. They are around 4 weeks of age and I would have to say they are as active and as inquisitive bunch of pups we have ever had, good looking to boot!

Aaron


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

I did a double take on Aaron's post because there's another Chopper X Birdie (Ramblin' Ritzy's Bye Bye Birdie) breeding on the ground, about 4+ weeks old, except her call name is BB:

http://www.gooddoginfo.com/gdc/Asp/puppies.asp


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2008)

Buzz said:


> In addition to the good marking and training attitude, this is an issue I see with mine. I started getting on him about noise since 8 weeks. I have a yellow that was worse and we worked it out, so I am optimistic. But then again, mine is doubled up on Cosmo, so we'll see...


. 

Mine also is doubled up on cosmo and nosiey as he'll. And I discover the solution! Sqeezed his sack kick his face and countionus 6 in the ear. And now quiet as a mouse. But he still eating the birds. Please help


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

Chopper x Tequila Sunrise = Pink......4 Derby wins in a row


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

JKL said:


> Chopper x Tequila Sunrise = Pink......4 Derby wins in a row


That breeding nicked very well.... no doubt about it! Course that dam nicked well with other sires, too.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Frank k said:


> .
> 
> Mine also is doubled up on cosmo and nosiey as he'll. And I discover the solution! Sqeezed his sack kick his face and countionus 6 in the ear. And now quiet as a mouse. But he still eating the birds. Please help


 
Prolly ought to see if the breeder won't take him back before he bites ya.

No sense fooling with 'em regards

Bubba


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Frank k said:


> .
> 
> Mine also is doubled up on cosmo and nosiey as he'll. And I discover the solution! Sqeezed his sack kick his face and countionus 6 in the ear. And now quiet as a mouse. But he still eating the birds. Please help


Glad I finished my coffee before reading this. Otherwise it would be on my screen and in my keyboard...


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Frank k said:


> .....Sqeezed his sack kick his face and countionus 6 in the ear......


Would someone please explain exactly what this means? I understand the first half but not the second half.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

zipmarc said:


> Would someone please explain exactly what this means? I understand the first half but not the second half.


I'm not 100% sure. I was thinking it wasn't serious, but you never know.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Anyone know the real deal with Chopper?

Some say it's brain damage from the overheating episode and others say it's bad elbows. And, I've heard other ailments. So, what is it?

As much as he is getting bred I would hope it is not bad elbows.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> Anyone know the real deal with Chopper?
> 
> Some say it's brain damage from the overheating episode and others say it's bad elbows. And, I've heard other ailments. So, what is it?
> 
> As much as he is getting bred I would hope it is not bad elbows.


I have heard consistently that it is directly related to the overheating accicdent. Very sad for such a young amazingly telented dog. I am positive there are people on here that know but, I don't know that anyone has confirmed it.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

tshuntin said:


> I am positive there are people on here that know but, I don't know that anyone has confirmed it.


People are reluctant to post if they really know and everyone has a reliable source. I asked this question before and got a bunch of PM's with a variety of ailments but, elbows was two to one over other issues. The truth would be nice since he has become the most popular sire since Lean Mac.

A simple OFA elbow report would clear up that suspicion.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> My source said it was a blood disorder which resulted from an overheating incident. Chopper is apparently fully recovered from it.


Fully recovered as in competing again as a 6 year old?


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

I don't know. I haven't seen his name in the catalogs or on EE.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Folks,

Please be very careful of posting information about a dog that is not confirmed by a vet or accurate. Rumors or heresay can cause many problems.


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

Thank you Vicky!
Especially because I have a Chopper puppy.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

junfan68 said:


> Well, where are those of us who have Chopper pups supposed to get accurate information about our dogs sire?


www.offa.org
Training accidents aren't hereditary, no matter what dog it is. I don't know the scoop so offa is about as good as it gets. Choppers a great producing dog, either him or his daddy will be my next pups daddy.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> Well, where are those of us who have Chopper pups supposed to get accurate information about our dogs sire?


I would highly suggest contacting Chopper's owners.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

lillusk3 said:


> www.offa.org


Only thing indicated on the OFA site is that three generations of sires didn't have elbow xrays submitted. That being Chopper, Carbon and Cosmo. And, some of the oldtimers don't OFA elbows as it has only been in the last 10-15 years that folks strated doing them. Who knows, all three could have the best elbows around. I have a 6 year old Carbon male with good elbows. 

Point is, now that he is the most popular stud since LM, shouldn't we know as much as we can about the stud? Or, do potential health issues not matter?

As Vicky suggest, if I were looking at a Chopper litter, I would go to the source and ask. 

I've received several PMs offering various opinions, all second hand and different.

No doubt the dogs throws some talent. And yes, there are some youngsters down here that are vocal.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Mr Booty said:


> Only thing indicated on the OFA site is that three generations of sires didn't have elbow xrays submitted. That being Chopper, Carbon and Cosmo. And, some of the oldtimers don't OFA elbows as it has only been in the last 10-15 years that folks strated doing them. Who knows, all three could have the best elbows around. I have a 6 year old Carbon male with good elbows.
> 
> Point is, now that he is the most popular stud since LM, shouldn't we know as much as we can about the stud? Or, do potential health issues not matter?
> 
> ...


The one thing I like about his elbows is that 12/16 offspring listed in OFA have had their elbows done and all were normal.


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

Thank you for that information.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> The one thing I like about his elbows is that 12/16 offspring listed in OFA have had their elbows done and all were normal.


Most folks only send xrays to OFA when they look good. Looking at progney doesn't give one an accurate view of what a stud is predisposed to producing. 

I know a lot of owners who have never sent xrays to OFA when they didn't look good by many different studs. Again, Chopper's elbows are probably normal. 

Persoanlly, I want to know as much as I can about the sire and dam of any pup I am considering, especially skeletal health. One has to try and put the odds in their favor.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Read Sharon's article in Retriever Journal. You can get a good idea of what works and why.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I'd bet that he'll retrieve every bird downed while hunting this season. HPW


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

i had a pup out of chopper come up with elbow dysplasia. could have been the dam side, though too.
________
IOLITE VAPORIZER HEALTH REVIEW


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Here are some pics of a Chopper's pup at 7 weeks:


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> 12/16 offspring listed in OFA have had their elbows done and all were normal.


How do you know that the other 4/16 did not have their elbows done?


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Here's a video of a 4 month old Chopper pup doing a re-entry water mark across 2 channels. The bumper is pretty well hidden at the end. 

http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q244/thecottrells/?action=view&current=Untitled_0001.flv


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

jeff t. said:


> How do you know that the other 4/16 did not have their elbows done?


Obviously I don't. Personally I always sign the release to publish adverse results and wish everyone would. However, I was happy to see that 75% at least had the elbows tested. I am continuously stunned by how many people don't spend the extra $75-$100 to have elbows x-rayed at the same time that they do hips.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> Obviously I don't. Personally I always sign the release to publish adverse results and wish everyone would. However, I was happy to see that 75% at least had the elbows tested. I am continuously stunned by how many people don't spend the extra $75-$100 to have elbows x-rayed at the same time that they do hips.


I agree.

Lacking other info, I tend to assume that dogs with hip results but no elbow results indicates a likelihood of bad elbows.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Interesting stats from OFA:

Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED


I wonder how many of the bitches he was bred to had OFA'd elbows.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

How many amateurs have Chopper pups and are doing all their own training?

A friend of mine has a Chopper pup and he has a ton of bottom. He's not vocal though.

WRL


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

WRL said:


> How many amateurs have Chopper pups and are doing all their own training?
> 
> A friend of mine has a Chopper pup and he has a ton of bottom. He's not vocal though.
> 
> WRL


Wow. Mine should ahve come with earplugs..  but he's much better now. 

The litter Ruckus came from is extremely "hot" and would not be for the faint of heart..... QAA Ford bitch.. almost too hot, per Ruckus' pro. Lot of work ....... Luckily, Ruckus is turning into a little sweetie. 


Thinkin' Van E's going to be askin' me for a raise, regards-


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

WRL said:


> How many amateurs have Chopper pups and are doing all their own training?
> 
> WRL


I'm training one. So far it's been a pleasure.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

So, anyone with Chopper pups had the EIC test done yet?

I plan on having it done, but won't test until dog gets back from trainer in late October.

PM me if you prefer not to post.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> So, anyone with Chopper pups had the EIC test done yet?
> 
> I plan on having it done, but won't test until dog gets back from trainer in late October.
> 
> PM me if you prefer not to post.


Nope. Not until he's two, passes hips, elbows, and eyes (done - just haven't sent them in- who cares without the hips and elbows being sound?). Then, I'll worry about EIC and CNM.


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

I'm going to be testing my Chopper pup here soon. She already has her OFA, CNM, CERF. I need to update her CERF though. She's never given me any reason to believe she's affected and she gets excited about everything. Very much a handful but a team player about most things. Getting from the truck to the holding blind and honoring are the things in life that she finds the most difficult. Love her.


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## Mark (Jun 13, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Nope. Not until he's two, passes hips, elbows, and eyes (done - just haven't sent them in- who cares without the hips and elbows being sound?). Then, I'll worry about EIC and CNM.



Why not get the EIC test done as early as possible. Do you want to throw a years training into a dog that then drops from EIC unexpectedly and you then have to wash all those dollars down the drain.

Mark


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Mark said:


> Why not get the EIC test done as early as possible. Do you want to throw a years training into a dog that then drops from EIC unexpectedly and you then have to wash all those dollars down the drain.
> 
> Mark


That's how I look at it. I tested my dog not because I was worried about whether she was a carrier or not, I wanted to know that my dog wouldn't go down after putting more training into her.


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## Lucky Seven (Feb 4, 2008)

I have a Chopper pup.

She is 4 months old.

I had her blood taken by my vet on Tuesday. It was also sent to Univ. of Minn. same day.

I will let you know the results as soon as I get them ......

She is CNM clear.

Chad


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Mark said:


> Why not get the EIC test done as early as possible. Do you want to throw a years training into a dog that then drops from EIC unexpectedly and you then have to wash all those dollars down the drain.
> 
> Mark


Haven't seen anything that concerns me... just my own personal choice on the order I do tests in. Why would I want to spend the $$ on an EIC test or CNM test if his hips and elbows don't clear? Besides, there are Affecteds that are Asymtomatic.


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## Jake Sullivan (Jan 28, 2008)

I see what Susan is saying here.....why test if his results come back and he has bad hips, or elbows?!Almost like common sense.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Because if the dog has EIC it wouldn't matter if the has great hips/elbows if it is having EIC issues (being EIC affected) it might not be able to train or hunt or compete.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

If you use a pro trainer for your young dog work, you can easily have $7,000-9,000 into a dog before the dog goes down with an EIC attack. We have a young dog in our group that goes down, and it is concerning to all of us. Seems like a pretty cheap test to do, only $65.

We spent $10,000 on our old female before she started going down. This was our 1996 dog. We didn't know what it was, but knew we didn't want to breed her and spayed her, and stopped training her. She had a great life, hanging out, hunting pheasants/ducks, playing AKC Hunting Tests, etc. She just went down when we had little kids for company.

We prefer to purchase pups where at least one parent tests as clear for EIC and CNM, along with other known clearances.


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