# A dog's day at the pros



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

What's it like? How much time getting work, how much time in kennel, etc.? 

Thanks!

Signed, a Newb


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

At my place when I have a full crew its

-Feed and air for 15 to 20 mins in groups of six as I get kennel chores done.
-All dogs currently doing yard work get that right away and go on the truck with some water as they finish.
-The rest of the dogs get loaded and off we go to the field to train.
-The big dogs get a set of marks most have blinds also.
-Quick lunch break
-Pups get marks
-Big dogs off for a second set of marks or possibly something like a tune up drill.
-Back to the kennel to feed and air.
-All dogs are cycled through the airing yard till bed time. (my bed time)
Weekends if not a HT or Trial its three 30 min sessions in the airing yard and chill in the kennel the rest of the day.


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Close to the same at Tims

Air, clean and feed first thing rotating dogs airing
Yard work for the babies and puppy marks if we have one
Big dogs start with a drill of some sort
Young Dog Marks
Big Dog Marks and Blinds 
Young Dog Marks
Big Dog Marks and Blinds
Air and Feed 
Air one last time before bed. 

When we are at home they are in the kennel at night and days off. When on the road they are staked out as we run them


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Kris Hunt said:


> Close to the same at Tims
> 
> Air, clean and feed first thing rotating dogs airing
> Yard work for the babies and puppy marks if we have one
> ...


All this for somewhere between $20 and $30 per day.
Except for parenthood, schoolteachers, and the military, reputable and dependable pro trainers are the most under appreciated and under paid profession in the world.
Having been on both sides of the fence, it is worth twice what they normally charge.
MP


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

Hats off to all the "dedicated" professional dog trainers out there! Agree with Mike Perry.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Tim and Kris---thank you for taking time to answer!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> All this for somewhere between $20 and $30 per day.


700 to 800 a monthe sometimes seems like alot when your writing out the check but when you break it down to days, there doing an awfull lot of work for $2o to $30 a day per dog.. Granted there all not training days but the dogs still have to be taken care of.. It's one of the proffessions that you had better love what your doing each and every day..


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> 700 to 800 a monthe sometimes seems like alot when your writing out the check but when you break it down to days, there doing an awfull lot of work for $2o to $30 a day per dog.. Granted there all not training days but the dogs still have to be taken care of.. It's one of the proffessions that you had better love what your doing each and every day..


Exacalacally right,these guys and gals live with your dogs.
Imagine sending your kids off to school for that price. CHEAP!!!!!!


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Mike Perry said:


> All this for somewhere between $20 and $30 per day.
> MP


Friends gasped when told what we were paying a month for a "dog on a truck". My question back to them was "How much is your monthly bill for childcare? My dog is getting food, shelter, training 24/7 for that!" At that point I think they realized I had the better deal for my "kids"!


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

Good thread.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> At my place when I have a full crew its
> 
> -Feed and air for 15 to 20 mins in groups of six as I get kennel chores done.
> -All dogs currently doing yard work get that right away and go on the truck with some water as they finish.
> ...


 




I do pretty much the same as Tim but I never have a full crew so there is also some just hangin out with the dog time, especially new dogs. I may just sit and pet them or maybe a short walk in the field letting the dog be a dog before we start to work. I like to develope a relationship with the dog for about a week before I start demanding things from him.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm disappointed that so many think sending a dog off to a pro is all about the financial side---not where I was wanting to go with the thread. 

A lot of us got our dogs to be family pets first, we really like having them around. I really can't imagine sending my pup away for training because we'd miss her too much, but I'm starting to think it may be in her best interest. 

So I'm sort of wondering how being at a pro for months at a time affects the other goals some of us have for our dogs---particularly for a family dog. 

The details from Tim, Kris and Steve about what they do have been helpful to me!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

mitty said:


> So I'm sort of wondering how being at a pro for months at a time affects the other goals some of us have for our dogs---particularly for a family dog.


You will be amazed at how quickly they fit back in to the same routine. Like they never left.


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## BentleysMom (Nov 6, 2010)

The dogs always come back home and back to their family routine! We just sent 3 dogs south today on a pro truck. I know they will have fun and enjoy getting birds everyday! Really is the best for them, they love working.

The weather is too cold for them to enjoy the winter with me. They would drive me crazy! 

Best to find pro that airs often, does several set ups a day. Trains at a min of 6 days a week. Also a big thing for me was making sure they had a kennel vs just a truck or trailer. I think this makes most dogs more comfortable and happy with the pro.


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

I know the people miss the dog more than the dog misses the people. A pro truck is a daily routine for the dogs and they absolutely LOVE IT! The play and seeing other dogs, traveling all over the country, etc... But once the dogs get back home they go back to their home routine for the most part while other dogs miss the daily work and beg to get back on the 'truck'. I liked Steve's comments about spending time with the dogs. I try to do that as well. The more I know about the dog the better I can focus on how to train the dog and you get to know a lot by just watching the dogs play. We also take turns letting the dogs come in the trailer or go for a one-on-one walk.

I love what I do and Yes it is an immense amount of work for what you get paid, more of a lifestyle really.


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

BentleysMom said:


> Also a big thing for me was making sure they had a kennel vs just a truck or trailer. I think this makes most dogs more comfortable and happy with the pro.


Funny you think of that. I have always seen dogs adjust to the truck easier than the kennel. When we first get back with the dogs from our winter trip they go nuts in the kennel worried they are going to get left behind and not go work for the day. LOL Takes a few weeks for them to get comfortable.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I guess Disney or some movies have people believing that the dog is pining away for them......they don't miss people ,or have a sense of time like we do.They live in the moment and adapt to where they are quickly.They go home and go straight to the treat bin like they have only been gone for five minutes.


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Jay Dufour said:


> I guess Disney or some movies have people believing that the dog is pining away for them......they don't miss people ,or have a sense of time like we do.They live in the moment and adapt to where they are quickly.They go home and go straight to the treat bin like they have only been gone for five minutes.


I love the dream world you people live in!! I love how people buy dogs and then send them to what they consider a "pro" to get trained and then these owners get excited when their dogs win stuff!!! Mr or Mrs owner, you did nothing but write a check!! Your dogs will run better and hard for you if you spend the time to train your dog yourself!! But don't claim Sucsess if you own a successful dog that you have shipped off to a "pro" to be trained. To the OP, buy a book titled "10 Min Retriever" and train your dog your self, your dog will run harder and you will get a stronger sense of accomplishment by doing it your self then you will by shipping your dog off to some "pro" and watching from the sidelines!!


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

@Mitty,
I find sites like this great resources to learn things and there are some great videos and books out there to help you learn....In my humble opinion the only difference between a "pro" and a "AM" is time and resources that they have to train.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Run N Gun said:


> I love the dream world you people live in!! I love how people buy dogs and then send them to what they consider a "pro" to get trained and then these owners get excited when their dogs win stuff!!! Mr or Mrs owner, you did nothing but write a check!! Your dogs will run better and hard for you if you spend the time to train your dog yourself!! But don't claim Sucsess if you own a successful dog that you have shipped off to a "pro" to be trained. To the OP, buy a book titled "10 Min Retriever" and train your dog your self, your dog will run harder and you will get a stronger sense of accomplishment by doing it your self then you will by shipping your dog off to some "pro" and watching from the sidelines!!


Turned 41 last summer, yep when I get the chance to retire, I'll hopefully be able to go south for the winter, hook up with a training group and do all of the training myself, but untill then if you think for one minute I can buy a book called the "10 minute retriever" and continue training an 11 monthe old puppy during a MN winter and have her ready to run a derby some time next summer your absolutly nuts.

I do alot of the training myself but 20 below and 3 feet of snow puts the dog way behind come spring..


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Wow, Run N Gun, I love the dream world you must be living in. Many owners do not just "write a check". They work with their pro, learning handling tips, set ups tips and training skills for when their dog returns home to them. 

Not everyone has the luxury of not leaving their home or being able to get home from their place of employment when there is still daylight. Not everyone has the skills to read the dog while going through pressure, without first being taught first hand....not through a book or video.

Some owners don't want to "mess up" their dog by trying skills they are not competent in doing and they look for guidance from a pro.

Sure, there are some owners that purchase a dog, put it on a pro's truck and just write a check....but I sincerely don't believe that is the majority of pro trained dog owners.

JMHO


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> Turned 41 last summer, yep when I get the chance to retire, I'll hopefully be able to go south for the winter, hook up with a training group and do all of the training myself, but untill then if you think for one minute I can buy a book called the "10 minute retriever" and continue training an 11 monthe old puppy during a MN winter and have her ready to run a derby some time next summer your absolutly nuts.
> 
> I do alot of the training myself but 20 below and 3 feet of snow puts the dog way behind come spring..


Do you hunt or do you just do field trials? Because there is some great bird hunting in MN! If your entire goal with you dog is to see it win stuff then you should send it off with a "pro"...But you should also consider the victory's your dog and the "pro" accomplish are theirs and not yours. Your the guy that writes the checks and that's cool as well I suppose!


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Wow, Run N Gun, I love the dream world you must be living in. Many owners do not just "write a check". They work with their pro, learning handling tips, set ups tips and training skills for when their dog returns home to them.
> 
> Not everyone has the luxury of not leaving their home or being able to get home from their place of employment when there is still daylight. Not everyone has the skills to read the dog while going through pressure, without first being taught first hand....not through a book or video.
> 
> ...



I completely agree! There are some people in the group you describe. I shouldn't group everybody in the same bucket.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> In my humble opinion the *only* difference between a "pro" and a "AM" is time and resources that they have to train.



There are alot of differences between a GOOD pro and the average Am ( like me, or most of us). Being able to read a dog would be # 1 understanding when and how much pressure to apply to get the desired result without going backwards. And lets not forget access to quality training grounds (WATER) on a daily basis.

I know I would love to do all of it myself but it's almost impossible, while working a full time job, the summers are fine but not during our winters there can be weeks when nothing gets done, I don't like 20 beow and i know the dogs don't either.. 

To each there own but if I can swing it and I have a promissing young dog there going to go were there going to get the work they deserve during the winter.

And yes they fit right back in when they get home, almost like they never left..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Run N Gun said:


> Do you hunt or do you just do field trials? Because there is some great bird hunting in MN! If your entire goal with you dog is to see it win stuff then you should send it off with a "pro"...But you should also consider the victory's your dog and the "pro" accomplish are theirs and not yours. Your the guy that writes the checks and that's cool as well I suppose!



I do all three FT HT and I hunt my dogs, and yes I like it when they win stuff, pass a test and retrieve a bird during the season, mostly I like to train. If I have the opportunity with a promising young dog or a good young dog I like to send them south in Jan. The pro I use lives an hour away from me and when he gets home in April I go and get the dog (S). Sure he'd like to keep them and he's won the dissusion a couple of times but for the most part, I take them back in April and try to get there and train every chance I have during the summer. I feel every time I'm there I leave a better trainer than when I came and having that ability to go there and train on the weekends is as valuable to me as having the dog south during the winter monthes. 

As far as running the dog, if the dog is ready he runs them during the winter trip and when there home I run and train them.. I have no desire to watch my dog run from the gallery.


Yes there are some owners, like you describe but for the most part alot of us just don't want the training to end for 4 monthes during the winter, and have the dog be so far behing they may never catch up....


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> I do all three FT HT and I hunt my dogs, and yes I like it when they win stuff, pass a test and retrieve a bird during the season, mostly I like to train. If I have the opportunity with a promising young dog or a good young dog I like to send them south in Jan. The pro I use lives an hour away from me and when he gets home in April I go and get the dog (S). Sure he'd like to keep them and he's won the dissusion a couple of times but for the most part, I take them back in April and try to get there and train every chance I have during the summer. I feel every time I'm there I leave a better trainer than when I came and having that ability to go there and train on the weekends is as valuable to me as having the dog south during the winter monthes.
> 
> As far as running the dog, if the dog is ready he runs them during the winter trip and when there home I run and train them.. I have no desire to watch my dog run from the galler
> 
> ...


To each there own I suppose....I have always worked a full time job and done all my own training and I have run all of them in competition's(HT's,FT's) and I hunt'em from Sept-Feb....True they don't win a bunch of tittles, but they out hunt most dogs with FC's or AfC's next to there name!! So I guess all that matters is what you want out of the dog.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Much the same...

Out to the kennel between 4:00 and 7:00 daylight dependent. [3:30 AM is my personal record for trying to beat the heat one day.] 

Air/clean up [my kennel runs must be spotless!]

Load up and depending on the weather train. Hot weather see dogs that have to 'run' train first......early yard work dogs can train in the shade later on. Cool weather, whatever dogs take the most energy first. I train pointing dogs too so many days they run first. [Right now I'm putting in about 8 miles a day on foot running the pointing dogs here in training.] 

Retrievers usually train least experienced to most experienced but it depends.....I just like to break things up and don't always stay in the same pattern except on the hot days.

No one eats until the last dog run has rested an hour.

Feed/air.

Night check between 9:00-11:00 PM

Rinse/repeat. 

No assistant trainers or kennel help, just me, myself and I.

No more trials so weekends are usually busier then week days with dogs coming in/going and clients visiting dogs. Tractor/bush hog time and endless other property related time killers seem nearly endless and I never catch up on them.

My booking keeping is non-existent, clients call asking if I want to get paid.

I check house phone/email a number of time a day seeing as I train on our property 90% of the time and a very close to the house. Nothing really fancy, 100+ acres, fields, a decent shaped pond, second growth timber, transitioning fields, pretty much all I need for a shooting dog program and training pointing dogs.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Run N Gun said:


> @Mitty,
> I find sites like this great resources to learn things and there are some great videos and books out there to help you learn....In my humble opinion the only difference between a "pro" and a "AM" is time and resources that they have to train.


Yeah, AMs have the great advantage of only having to train the dogs the want to a to and don't have spend hours training the difficult ones and then hours talking to their owners.

I know a number of AMs that have faaaaaaaar more time and resources then many many pros. Several very good pros have an AM 'benefactor' when it comes to grounds........


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Run N Gun said:


> To each there own I suppose....I have always worked a full time job and done all my own training and I have run all of them in competition's(HT's,FT's) and I hunt'em from Sept-Feb....True they don't win a bunch of tittles, but they out hunt most dogs with FC's or AfC's next to there name!! So I guess all that matters is what you want out of the dog.



Do you feel your 100% self trained dogs are ever behind come spring our are you able to be competitive when the soft water trial season arrrives? Just wondering, maybe I'm missing something in my training, fill me in if I can have them ready for the trial season without having them in the water all winter I want to know the secret. 


Have many FC/AFC's have you outhunted?? J/W because I personally or any of my core hunting group has never hunted with either an FC or and AFC.


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Alec Sparks said:


> Yeah, AMs have the great advantage of only having to train the dogs the want to a to and don't have spend hours training the difficult ones and then hours talking to their owners.
> 
> I know a number of AMs that have faaaaaaaar more time and resources then many many pros. Several very good pros have an AM 'benefactor' when it comes to grounds........


I'm not saying that folks that train dogs for living don't work hard....I was a Pro Fishing Guide for a number of years and it was a lot more work then just fishing everyday!!! I train all my own dogs, and I believe dogs work harder when trained by there owner. I don't care what the breeding is, if that dog can hunt and maybe run some HT's or just train in the back yard and hunt and hang out with his/her family, that dog will be happy....The dog doesn't think "I'm not living up to my potential" "I should have a bunch of MH's and FC's next to my name"!!! People put those standards/expectations on dogs.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Run N Gun said:


> I love the dream world you people live in!! I love how people buy dogs and then send them to what they consider a "pro" to get trained and then these owners get excited when their dogs win stuff!!! Mr or Mrs owner, you did nothing but write a check!! Your dogs will run better and hard for you if you spend the time to train your dog yourself!! But don't claim Sucsess if you own a successful dog that you have shipped off to a "pro" to be trained. To the OP, buy a book titled "10 Min Retriever" and train your dog your self, your dog will run harder and you will get a stronger sense of accomplishment by doing it your self then you will by shipping your dog off to some "pro" and watching from the sidelines!!


May be one of the dumbest, uninformed posts I've ever seen on RTF.


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> Do you feel your 100% self trained dogs are ever behind come spring our are you able to be competitive when the soft water trial season arrrives? Just wondering, maybe I'm missing something in my training, fill me in if I can have them ready for the trial season without having them in the water all winter I want to know the secret.
> 
> 
> Have many FC/AFC's have you outhunted?? J/W because I personally or any of my core hunting group has never hunted with either an FC or and AFC.


I must not take it as serious as you....I don't care if my dog or dogs are behind, I just do it for fun, I don't make money on my dogs, training and hunting and competitions are just for fun! I've hunted with numerous FT dogs that get lost or confused in hunting situations, FT's are different then hunting situations.


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> May be one of the dumbest, uninformed posts I've ever seen on RTF.


Here is a typical RTF reply....I know, I'm dumb and your smart!!


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## Kyle (Apr 9, 2004)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> May be one of the dumbest, uninformed posts I've ever seen on RTF.


Agreed! 

Now I have to let my wife know she hasn't done crap with our dogs. All the time she has worked with the dogs since they came back from the pro...what a waste. I'll have to let her know the "correct" way and "only" way to train dogs. And that 2nd she got in the Amateur two years ago...all the joy she had...I'll have to let her know she didn't do ****! I hope she understands.

2 years with a pro...rest of their life with us...just writing a check!

Kyle


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Run N Gun said:


> I must not take it as serious as you....I don't care if my dog or dogs are behind, I just do it for fun, I don't make money on my dogs, training and hunting and competitions are just for fun! I've *hunted *with numerous *FT* dogs that get lost or confused in hunting situations, FT's are different then hunting situations.



I do it for fun as well, if I didn't feel it was fun trust me I wouldn't do it.


So if I'm reading this right youv'e never really hunted with or OUT HUNTED an FC or an AFC ( like you said in a previose post) but you have hunted with a FT dog with a FC or an AFC in there pedigree and OUT HUNTED them.

If the answer is yes to any or all of the above I have no reason to not believing you..


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Kyle said:


> Agreed!
> 
> Now I have to let my wife know she hasn't done crap with our dogs. All the time she has worked with the dogs since they came back from the pro...what a waste. I'll have to let her know the "correct" way and "only" was to train dogs. And that 2nd she got in the Amateur two years ago...all the joy she had...I'll have to let her know she didn't do ****! I hope she understands.
> 
> ...


Easy bud...No need to get all riled up! To each there own, I ws just voicing my opinion.


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## Kyle (Apr 9, 2004)

Run N Gun said:


> I love the dream world you people live in!! I love how people buy dogs and then send them to what they consider a "pro" to get trained and then these owners get excited when their dogs win stuff!!! Mr or Mrs owner, you did nothing but write a check!! Your dogs will run better and hard for you if you spend the time to train your dog yourself!! But don't claim Sucsess if you own a successful dog that you have shipped off to a "pro" to be trained. To the OP, buy a book titled "10 Min Retriever" and train your dog your self, your dog will run harder and you will get a stronger sense of accomplishment by doing it your self then you will by shipping your dog off to some "pro" and watching from the sidelines!!


Really????


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> I do it for fun as well, if I didn't feel it was fun trust me I wouldn't do it.
> 
> 
> So if I'm reading this right youv'e never really hunted with or OUT HUNTED an FC or an AFC ( like you said in a previose post) but you have hunted with a FT dog with a FC or an AFC in there pedigree and OUT HUNTED them.
> ...


Todd,

Yes, I have hunted with guys that have dogs that are QAA and FC and my dogs have out hunted some of these other dogs, now "out hunted" is relative your definition may be different then mine, I like my dogs to use instinct and I only handle or help them when need be. Again just my opinion bud, to each there own.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Run N Gun said:


> Here is a typical RTF reply....I know, I'm dumb and your smart!!


Well, that's basically what you've been telling everyone about sending their dog off to a pro. They're dumb for doing it and you're smarter for not.

And your stirring the pot in this thread is typical of someone that has been a member for a month and doesn't use his real name as his handle or posts.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Run N Gun said:


> Todd,
> 
> Yes, I have hunted with guys that have dogs that are QAA and FC and my dogs have out hunted some of these other dogs, now "out hunted" is relative your definition may be different then mine, I like my dogs to use instinct and I only handle or help them when need be. Again just my opinion bud, to each there own.



Nope completly your opinion, kind of reminds me of a Holiday Inn Express add:razz:


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> There are alot of differences between a GOOD pro and the average Am ( like me, or most of us). Being able to read a dog would be # 1 understanding when and how much pressure to apply to get the desired result without going backwards. And lets not forget access to quality training grounds (WATER) on a daily basis.
> 
> I know I would love to do all of it myself but it's almost impossible, while working a full time job, the summers are fine but not during our winters there can be weeks when nothing gets done, I don't like 20 beow and i know the dogs don't either..
> 
> ...


So is it pretty common for MN guys to send there dog South for the winter?


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## Run N Gun (Oct 3, 2011)

Rick_C said:


> Well, that's basically what you've been telling everyone about sending their dog off to a pro. They're dumb for doing it and you're smarter for not.
> 
> And your stirring the pot in this thread is typical of someone that has been a member for a month and doesn't use his real name as his handle or posts.


Not my intention Rick....The OP mentioned they were considering sending there dog to a pro and I just gave my opinion on sending a dog to a pro! Nothing more and nothing less then just my opinion, you don't agree with my opinion and that's cool, I never said anybody was dumb and I never said I was smarter then anybody else, you read those things into what I said.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Run N Gun said:


> Here is a typical RTF reply....I know, I'm dumb and your smart!!


No, just an astute observation.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

mngundog said:


> So is it pretty common for MN guys to send there dog South for the winter?


Pretty common if you have a dog that needs work from Jan through march/april.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

I think you are doing some back tracking there runngun... Maybe you need to reread your original post. Not really "just giving your opinion." 

I have 10 Min Retriever. I train my own dog. I also work with a pro to improve myself and my dog. AND I respect anyone who trains their dogs in whatever capacity they can, for whatever accomplishments they aspire to, whether that be an AFC/FC or a great hunting dog, or both...

Just my opinions on the matter. To the OP, I hope you find the pro you are looking for. Good luck! 





Run N Gun said:


> I love the dream world you people live in!! I love how people buy dogs and then send them to what they consider a "pro" to get trained and then these owners get excited when their dogs win stuff!!! Mr or Mrs owner, you did nothing but write a check!! Your dogs will run better and hard for you if you spend the time to train your dog yourself!! But don't claim Sucsess if you own a successful dog that you have shipped off to a "pro" to be trained. To the OP, buy a book titled "10 Min Retriever" and train your dog your self, your dog will run harder and you will get a stronger sense of accomplishment by doing it your self then you will by shipping your dog off to some "pro" and watching from the sidelines!!


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Run N Gun said:


> To each there own I suppose....I have always worked a full time job and done all my own training and I have run all of them in competition's(HT's,FT's) and I hunt'em from Sept-Feb....True they don't win a bunch of tittles, but they out hunt most dogs with FC's or AfC's next to there name!! So I guess all that matters is what you want out of the dog.


How'd you do in the Field Trials???


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

John Lash said:


> How'd you do in the Field Trials???


I think we have a bit of a Flamer here. post #43
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76567&page=2


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think we have a bit of a Flamer here. post #43
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76567&page=2


Why am I not surprised? And is it any surprise that our Flamer does not identify himself?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

mitty said:


> I'm disappointed that so many think sending a dog off to a pro is all about the financial side---not where I was wanting to go with the thread.
> 
> A lot of us got our dogs to be family pets first, we really like having them around. I really can't imagine sending my pup away for training because we'd miss her too much, but I'm starting to think it may be in her best interest.
> 
> ...


There are good pros and bad pros. The good pros realize your commitment to your dog, and the trust you have placed in them. They will care for your dog - and may even be more attentive to your dog's medical needs than you are. 

I know that my pro saved one of my dog's life (FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer - Buffy) by recognizing she had bloat and driving immediately to CSU for surgery.

She also took another of my dogs (FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie - Zowie) immediately to the hospital when she saw that he was not recovering from surgery as he should have.

For the young dogs, who are full of piss and vinegar, she makes a point of roading them at the end of the day - so that they can blow off some steam.

She has called me to tell me to pick dogs who simply did not adapt to kennel life (some do not) and who did not have what it took to accomplish what I wanted (many do not)

A good pro will treat your dog like his/her own. Maybe even better.

As for their adjustment when they return from the pros,

- My retired competition dogs are great citizens and pets
- My washout competition dogs are great citizens and pets
- My friends to whom I have given my washout dogs love them in the home

If you decide to go with a good pro, you should see no ill effects

Ted


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Cmon guys take it easy on Run n Gun. When I first came on here back in 98 I was the same way. Thought I knew everything I need to know about training dogs even called people that used the collar cheaters. Thanks to a few people on here that sent me pms and talked some sense into me I have learned a lot.
As far as using a pro goes some people want a nicely trained dog to hunt or compete with but dont have the time to do it so whats wrong with hiring someone to do it for them? Also a majority of people I have trained for just dont understand dogs well enough to do it their self. I know Renee and she has a nice little dog and she has done a good job with her. She is also smart enough to know that maybe her dog could be more by sending her to a trainer who has more experience. If that is what she wants I see nothing wrong with that. I have sent dogs to pros in the past simply because I wasnt seeing home in the daylight and felt I owed it to the dog as much as anything, hated seeing her just sit around and wasting her talent.
So Run and Gun it doesnt appear that you have much advice to offer here. Id like to see the FC or even QAA dogs that your dog has out hunted. Possibly it was that dogs first hunt. Just because a kid has a masters degree and is straight out of collage doesnt mean he is ready for the streets. There is still a lot of on the job training to be done but once he puts the education together with life on the street he will by far exceed the one without the education.


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## BentleysMom (Nov 6, 2010)

I can't believe that someone would think that all some of us do is write a check. I personally didn't have one weekend to myself this last summer. I trained dogs or spent time at HT's or FT's. I also trained about 5 or 6 nights a week after work, even in the rain and cold crappy weather. I got a JH title on a pup as was very happy! Can't wait to do it again next year! 

Now I am looking for cheap air tickets so I can spend my precious 2 weeks of vacation for the year with my dogs down south. 

To the OP I know the dogs are getting much more than I could give them right now. I just don't train in 20 below weather and 3 ft of snow sucks!


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

I was thinking the samething Ken!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> some folk don't know what they don't know. So.... because of that they think they already know it all. Some others are masters of the double type. And once you get um flusterlated and back pedaling and typing fast. True colors are reveled. A person can go from competing in field trials and out hunting a field champion to hunting with a dog that is but qualified all age and not having a handling dog themselves. I know when a person types that they like their dog to work and hunt on it's own that it actually means when they blow the whistle, the dog ain't gonna stop and take a cast anyway. Not that I lump all new fellers in the same bucket, or anything....;-) ;-)
> 
> .


On a related note, I have started to notice that the "you just have to make time to train" camp tend to be young men who have "a very understanding wife."


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

FinnLandR said:


> Why is everyone afraid of a little snow?  (Used to live in the UP, so I know what MN winters can be like.)


The UP has lots of snow, almost continuously, fluffly snow. We often have ice with snow on top for most of the winter or snow with an ice crust on top. It's fine if you mow a double T pattern, but on marks dogs can slip or twist their legs if they break through in crusty snow. That situation is not friendly to canine ccl's remaining intact. It just isn't worth it.


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## thebigcat (Feb 17, 2010)

I just got a chance to read this thread while waiting for a flight this morning, run and gun is quite the guy. Sounds like he needs to go spend a weekend at a Pro's camp and count how many clients are there learning and spending time with their dog. I personally had my my dog with a pro for 8 months and spent as much time as I could out there. I think maybe some first hand experience with a pro would level out his lopsided opinion of pro dog trainers.

If thats his attitude about pros then I can imagine hes home schooling his kids because his kids won't perform as well unless he teaches them.

But momma said, momma said, momma said (Waterboy) regards,


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Or performing an apendectomy, why trust it to a Doctor?


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Run N Gun said:


> @Mitty,
> I find sites like this great resources to learn things and there are some great videos and books out there to help you learn....In my humble opinion the only difference between a "pro" and a "AM" is time and *resources that they have to train.*


Guess what? Trucks, trailers, kennels, bumpers, bumper boys, wingers, 4 wheelers, food, ducks, pigeons, fuel, training grounds, employees, heeling sticks, collars, whistles, first aid supplies, daily calls from clients checking on their dogs, etc. are expensive. Hell, you get their expertise for free.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Run N Gun said:


> To each there own I suppose....I have always worked a full time job and done all my own training and I have run all of them in competition's(HT's,FT's).


How many FT's do you run in a calendar year, and what is your success rate? By success, I mean how many times do you get to the 4th series watermarks in a field trial, are you running in minors or all-age, how many jam finishes, and how many color?

Wait, I found a post of yours in the Hunt Test vs. Field Trial thread where you say you only run HT's so nevermind.

Lyle Steinman runs HT and I have seen him run in the Q. Maybe he runs the Open. He's good at the SRS. 

If you really want to learn something, sign up for one of the pro's seminars. You will learn something you can apply to your dog.

I see your responses to Todd have changed in tone. There are many people on this board who put a lot of work into their dogs with their Am group and/or with their pro and by themselves, and don't appreciate being dissed.

OP--The dogs never forget where they were raised. They know their home and we love having them around. The few we've washed out have gone to wonderful family homes. Two are running AKC Hunting Tests and sleeping in bed with the owner. The other is taking up the whole bed, along with a rescue dog brother and the owner is wondering where she will sleep. They are good citizens and are living great lives whether they stay with us or go to someone else.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i got a couple i train myself(great hunters)......i got a couple for which i sign a check(hope they make it).........i bet ol' run an' gun could even tell which of mine is which.

the point is, i think i will enjoy sitting in a lawn chair at a field trial and watching "my" dog win an open.(it's my bubble, don't bust it) after all, i did the breeding reasearch, selected the breeder, picked the pup, did all the puppy work, selcted the a-list pro, convinced the pro my pup was good enough to be on the truck,...........on and on and on. there are many paths one can take from point a to point b. from the point of view of a hunt test dude trying his luck at a new game, retriever competition at the "elite level" always appears to be a team effort.


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Hey Run N Gun, I see we are in the same area. Do you have something against pro's? Have you spent time training with one? Sounds like you have some hard feelings. There is nothing wrong with training your own dog the same as there is nothing wrong with sending a dog to a pro. Most of my clients work 6 days a week and besides not having the time, they don't have the knowledge to train their dog more commonly don't know what to do when the dog doesn't perform exactly like the book or video says. I encourage my clients to spend as much time as they can with me. I encourage them to run their own dogs at events and certainly while training they will run their own dog as well as other dogs off the truck.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think we have a bit of a Flamer here.





Ted Shih said:


> Why am I not surprised? And is it any surprise that our Flamer does not identify himself?





HiRollerlabs said:


> How many FT's do you run in a calendar year, and what is your success rate? By success, I mean how many times do you get to the 4th series watermarks in a field trial, are you running in minors or all-age, how many jam finishes, and how many color?


wanna bet he/she ( how are we to know) does not even have a dog?
never been to a test or trial, don't hunt at all, and has hampsters row a boat to run the computer;-) can you prove me wrong run&gun? would I know anyone whom has sold you a pup? I bet I don't.



.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

But Ken! He has a picture of a dog in his avatar! I mean, well he did, um, if the dog didn't get run over from laying under truck wheels.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Run N Gun said:


> Not my intention Rick....The OP mentioned they were considering sending there dog to a pro and I just gave my opinion on sending a dog to a pro! Nothing more and nothing less then just my opinion, you don't agree with my opinion and that's cool, I never said anybody was dumb and I never said I was smarter then anybody else, you read those things into what I said.


I didnt see where the OP mentioned they were thinking of sending a dog to a pro.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> - My washout competition dogs are great citizens and pets
> - My friends to whom I have given my washout dogs love them in the home


Very true!! And your washouts are still great dogs in the field and home.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Interesting thread - some of you must really be bored to even give this &*^%$ the courtesy of a reply. 

I won't post of my experiences working with pro's as I do not disagree with most posters about a pro's lot, I just prefer to muddle along with the training myself though I have gotten a ton of help from a couple of good pro's. & as 1 poster said "you need an understanding wife". 

But I do disagree with this statement on the hilited professions - & have the facts to back it up - we have a large military installation in our area & some choose to get into trouble, the papers publish their salaries & they are not underpaid - the folks drafted for the WW's, Korea & the Vietnam vets were underpaid - I know the experience, well . Teachers are not underpaid & most folks know that. There have been a few threads on the subject on these forums & fortunately the general public is becoming more aware of that fact. 



Mike Perry said:


> Except for parenthood, schoolteachers, and the military, reputable and dependable pro trainers are the most under appreciated and under paid profession in the world.
> Having been on both sides of the fence, it is worth twice what they normally charge.
> MP


As for parenthood it's hopefully a conscious choice. There is nothing like watching your grandchildren turn into young adults to recognize those issues you believe important have been thoroughly grounded in both your children & your grandchildren . I love Thanksgiving!!!!!!!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

2tall said:


> But Ken! He has a picture of a dog in his avatar! I mean, well he did, um, if the dog didn't get run over from laying under truck wheels.


and for example a well known RTF family member has an avatar in witch she appears to be dancing topless with a blue beanie and thong.
there is the off hand chance neither is an accurate representation.
　
.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> and for example a well known RTF family member has an avatar in witch she appears to be dancing topless with a blue beanie and thong.
> there is the off hand chance neither is an accurate representation.
> 
> .


She?? That is either NOT a "she" or is the fugliest she around. BUTT, no one can say "it" ain't got some MOOOOOVES!

AND Mr Bora (SB for the folks in the know), I don't do thongs.....they ain't attractive. I could give more detail, but I believe this board is PG rated.

BTW, some say that was YOU in a former life.....LOL Busta Move!

WRL


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

ah, the flopping . . . . . . gold chain,
is the give away. I don't do jewelry at all. Too Québécoise for me
but lets not side track and give run&gun a chance to tell us about his dog.
.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Renee (mitty) I'm sorry to see that your thread has been so totally hijacked!!! LOL

I think I understand where you're coming from. I have 2 dogs now, they live in the house and play with my grandchildren, and I am training them for hunt test myself (with the help of some loyal and talented friends, one of whom happens to be a pro.) I am quite sure they would advance faster and with fewer missteps along the way under the tutelage of a pro full time. With me training, we are taking our time, but we've made it to SH by age two and a half, and I think we'll have a master hunter in a year or so. The puppy is almost ready for junior next spring, she's coming along twice as fast as the first dog did because I know more. If you can't bring yourself to send your dog off, at least find a way to attend seminars or camps where you can train with someone.

Sending a dog off for professional training isn't for everyone, whether it's money or sentiment that prevents you from doing so. For those that do and can, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't care for their dogs. Some people aren't cut out to be trainers, or simply don't have the means to do it themselves.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> ah, the flopping . . . . . . gold chain,
> is the give away. I don't do jewelry at all. Too Québécoise for me
> but lets not side track and give run&gun a chance to tell us about his dog.
> .


I'm sure you would deny the thong too....but we have photogenic evidence......

LMAO.

WRL


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

_R n G_ has hit a nerve........ I see that the RTF's "stalwart's" wagons are circling:razz:

john


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Looks like run n gun had to run...

Back to the OP. If you are an average working person, now that it gets dark at 5:30. You can train long and hard on the weekends. If you have a group to train with that has the same goals as you.

So you can train "seriously" 8 days a month. Or what the average pro can do in a week and a half...That's if you have the help and knowledge they have. Of course there is the snow and ice too.

Put another way what you can do in 3 months they can do in a little over a month.

No wonder it's so hard to be competitive training your own dog.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> and for example a well known RTF family member has an avatar in witch she appears to be dancing topless with a blue beanie and thong.
> there is the off hand chance neither is an accurate representation.
> 
> .


Thongs? are they still in style? I thought commando was the way to go? I'm always the last to know.....


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> Thongs? are they still in style? I thought commando was the way to go? I'm always the last to know.....


 keeping things simple is always better.


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## Sophie Gundog (Apr 28, 2010)

Using a pro trainer for me is like advancing the dog months ahead of what I do, meaning what takes me three months of time working on can be done in a few weeks with the pro. By keeping all in balance , training by myself, lots of time hunting both upland and water fowl, doing very limited hunt tests, the advancement is solid , I have a hunting partner ,best friend , front seat dog that is giving me the chance for the next eight to ten years of great times in the blind and field, using the pro once every eighteen months or so just builds into the end result, best money I have ever spend,even if it is for short periods of a couple of months here and there.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Bump for kdzlaw (it kinda went down hill at the end but there's some nuggets too)


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## kdzlaw (Aug 19, 2012)

Thank you - it was quite the interesting read


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

I'm usually awoken around 10:00 when the server brings my breakfast tray in with fresh fruit, coffee [just roasted green Kona peabery beans] and the paper. After a time I get up shower and for morning massage. Helga is magnificent, you really should start your day no other way....

From time to time I'll glance out the massive picture window for my third floor bedroom suite and make sure my staff has the kennel spotless and training is in progress. If I see ANYTHING amiss, I'll call down stairs and have a runner go out to the kennel manager and have them address the issue post haste. 

After lunch by the pool [cracked crab and a bit of champagne] I'm driven to the training area where I spend AT LEAST 30 minutes supervising training before I'm rushed to make my afternoon tee time.

At days end while I relax with a cocktail the kennel/training staff meets with me with the daily reports. Each dog groomed, nails trimmed, ears cleaned, both before and after each rigorous and productive 5 minute daily training session. [Unfortunately yesterday I had to instruct the manager to fire to trainers for over-working the adult dogs. They had those poor beasts RUNNING for over 10 minutes.] Such abusive behavior is not tolerated here at Macho Magnum If It Flies It Does Kennels Inc.


After the staff is released I will usually have the pilot summoned and fly into the city to dine. Home by 1:00 AM [usually accompanied by a stunning female companion] I retire to my suite after another brutal day of training.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Wow Alec, things have sure changed for you since this thread was originally posted!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> I'm usually awoken around 10:00 when the server brings my breakfast tray in with fresh fruit, coffee [just roasted green Kona peabery beans] and the paper. After a time I get up shower and for morning massage. Helga is magnificent, you really should start your day no other way....
> 
> From time to time I'll glance out the massive picture window for my third floor bedroom suite and make sure my staff has the kennel spotless and training is in progress. If I see ANYTHING amiss, I'll call down stairs and have a runner go out to the kennel manager and have them address the issue post haste.
> 
> ...






Since you fired the help I'd like to apply.......Seriously though I do need a job.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

We have a similar routine to the others that posted.....except there is time budgeted for RTF!!

We've had customers that all they wanna do is write a check at the end of the month. Typically they don't remain clients. We tell our folks that the dog training is free, its the people that we charge for. If we don't see the owners periodically, we aren't interested in training their dog.


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