# Genetics and Delivery to Hand



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Here is a litter of 8-week-old lab puppies getting their first retrieves. They have been selectively bred to deliver to hand, and they do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8bx6JyNWzI

Best Regards,

Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Robert, with all due respect, they look like and behave like every puppy that i've seen over the past 15 years including all the dogs in these pics, that all delivered to hand. Yep even my wifes little mix breed house dogs delivers to hand, and i didn't FF chipper...selective breeding doesn't lay a foundation for training, which unless I'm very mistaken is what you're getting too.....



























/Paul


----------



## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Nice pups Robert!


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Looks to me like the handler put himself where the pup wanted to go.


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Robert, 

Really nice little video .. bar that b***** music!

Apart from being in the right place at the right time, there were a few other points that are worth noticing. Body low down at pups level, gentle restraint, and hands under pups chin, not taking the ball / wing too quickly, ... nothing threatening at all (apart from the cast: being playing with the rough boys again?). 

It's all so simple that it might be thought easy; it's certainly easy to get wrong and mess up.

*Gun_Dog2002. *You might care to pick a better snap to illustrate your black dogs natural delivery to hand. In spite of a tight lead restraining him, he appears to have his forefeet well dug in and to be playing tug-o-war in an effort to retain the bird. Upright stance, hand above the dogs face, pulling at the bird... surely not? 

Eug


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Robert, keep driving that point home--you know the importance of repetition and consistency of message. Stated often and convincingly, it's bound to be true, eh? Ineluctably so, what-what?

Why, I've got a British dog that was selectively bred as a *waitress* delivering to hand








*real orange juice* (not from concentrate, much less the orange squash the cousins are "forced" to guzzle over there). Do you have any idea what she's worth in today's world where real live service is such a bankrupt notion?

Oh, yeah: She also came genetically programmed to catch the jackalopes that Alice's Restaurant serves as the Friday night dinner special. But...








...as most of the clientele is vegan, we're working now on breeding that undesireable trait out of her line.

MG


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Very nice video. Having bred both Labradors and Dachshunds, I do not need convincing on the importance of genetics in obtaining good delivery to hand. When they do the job right and start doing it with little effort at 5-6 weeks of age, I call them Labs. It's possible mine have some British blood in them, but not in the last 70 years or so. What they do have is field trial and hunt test titles in their pedigrees going back as long as such events have existed.


----------



## JS McKinney (May 3, 2008)

The handler was selectively bred to have one normal leg and one giant leg made of trash bags and duct tape.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

I agree with /Paul ..... they look like most 8-week-old puppies I have seen ... playing and having a good time ... some need a little more coaxing than others ... just show them how to play the game.




Colonel Blimp said:


> Robert,
> 
> .....
> , there were a few other points that are worth noticing. Body low down at pups level, gentle restraint, and hands under pups chin, not taking the ball / wing too quickly, ... nothing threatening at all
> ...


Eugene, these points all relate to _training technique._ What do they have to do with genetics??

JS


----------



## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Here's a 6 week old US FT pup that has genes too.

He's retrieving a green winged teal in an open field!

Notice the hold, firmly on the body's midsection. Must be bred into them.;-)


----------



## skyflys (Apr 27, 2009)

They look like any lab litter i've ever saw. I played the playfull fetch with my yellow sence we brought her home. Good Genetics play in for a good dog but training is what makes a great dog. I had a backyard black mix when I was a kid that I ffed and hunted with and would deliver to hand.


----------



## skyflys (Apr 27, 2009)

If you look at my avatar sky's got two bumps in mouth. Was that bred into here? Cool a two for one deal! I'm not shooting at good breeding but I think it's a little far to say breeding for delivery to hand. Thats what trainings for.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

I am continually amazed at the different traits that are passed on from the first, second and third generations that couldn't possible be taught by the bitch in the puppy's first five weeks. The natural tendency to deliver to hand or quickly learn new concepts etc. is definitely inherited. Then it is enhanced through training.


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Robert
Most every pup I ever saw started out that way. If it is genetic then they will always return to you without enticement of any kind until their last breath. So teaching come and hold are not necessary.
while I agree genetics play a big part in the holding of the prey I believe the coming back is a combo of many factors. Temperament I consider a big factor and yes temperament is genetic but not necessarily passed to every pup in the litter
My last litter of 9 has all but 1 puppy comming straight back from what I hear and they are 6 month old. The one pup that doesn't come back might just be the best one out of the whole litter who knows.



Most american FT bred dogs do the same thing by the way.

So now we have a dilema.

Pete


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Howard N said:


> Looks to me like the handler put himself where the pup wanted to go.


That is what trainers do.

Robert


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

rmilner said:


> That is what trainers do.
> 
> Robert


But if delivery to hand is bred into them shouldn't they _naturally _come to where _you_ are?


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

"Robert, with all due respect, they look like and behave like every puppy that i've seen over the past 15 years including all the dogs in these pics, that all delivered to hand. Yep even my wifes little mix breed house dogs delivers to hand, and i didn't FF chipper...selective breeding doesn't lay a foundation for training, which unless I'm very mistaken is what you're getting too....."

Paul,
Selective breeding does lay a foundation for training. For example it produces the propensity for delivery to hand. The trainer then has a piece of behavior to shape and reinforce in order to increase reliability and persistence of that behavior of delivery to hand.

I realize that most labs have a propensity to deliver to hand. After all, we have been selectively breeding for it for at least 150 years. The question becomes, "what per cent of a typical litter exhibits delivery to hand prior to training or shaping?" Then the next question is, "Is the percentage increasing or decreasing?". 

I don't have an answer to the questions, but they are questions that breeders should be asking.


Best Regards,
Robert Milner
www.duckhillkennels.com


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

rmilner said:


> Here is a litter of 8-week-old lab puppies getting their first retrieves. They have been selectively bred to deliver to hand, and they do.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8bx6JyNWzI
> 
> ...


Robert, with all due respect, I'm sure your video impressed many uninformed neophyte youtube viewers. However, most of us on this forum have seen 100's of 8 week pups making retrieves and "delivering to hand"; and as such are less than impressed.

I would presume that all of the puppies in the video also had webbing between their toes. Is that something you have also "selectively bred" for and charge a premium for to purchasers of a Duckhill Kennel pup?

One of the axioms of advertising is to know your audience

"Selective breeding" or "Selective marketing" regards

Know


----------



## steved05 (Jan 30, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> "selectively bred" for and charge a premium for to purchasers of a Duckhill Kennel pup?


I don't know enough to have an opinoin yet, but before I got my pup I looked into Duckhill Kennels. His pups are priced very competitivey for a breeder, so that part of the statement isn't fare. His pups cost $800 with full registration. $500 less then Wildrose with limited registration. I ended up with a backyard bred 1/2 American and 1/2 British Lab and it work out great.


----------



## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Chill people.;-)
Sue


----------



## PridezionLabs (Mar 8, 2009)

Ken Archer said:


> I am continually amazed at the different traits that are passed on from the first, second and third generations that couldn't possible be taught by the bitch in the puppy's first five weeks. The natural tendency to deliver to hand or quickly learn new concepts etc. is definitely inherited. Then it is enhanced through training.


Having been in dogs for awhile, I agree with Ken here. I know you CAN breed to maximize the genectic influence of both Sire and Dam. It's done all the time. I won't comment on the video,it's just a brief window. I prefer to evaluate for a longer time frame. I won't say that it's not possible though.


----------



## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

You better watch that one at the beginning, sounds a bit vocal to me! 
I LOVE PUPPIES!


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

steved05 said:


> I don't know enough to have an opinoin yet, but before I got my pup I looked into Duckhill Kennels. His pups are priced very competitivey for a breeder, so that part of the statement isn't fare. His pups cost $800 with full registration. $500 less then Wildrose with limited registration. I ended up with a backyard bred 1/2 American and 1/2 British Lab and it work out great.


I don't have any problem with the Duck Hill web site or the manner in which it promotes British Labs since it emphasizes the positive and says nothing negative about other Labs. I think that linking training and breeding is good and probably helps build healthier puppy/owner relationships than simply shipping out 7-8 week old pups. Breeding for temperament is a good thing and promoting a breed in a way that allows a breeder to operate a successful business delivering physically and temperamentally sound pups at a competitive price is good as well.

My only problem is the almost complete absence of health clearances for breeding stock. Only one out of five listed sires has an OFA hip clearance listed. Only 5/13 listed females has an OFA hip clearance. No Duck Hill dogs are on the CNM white list and none of the other sires or dams has any OFA listing at all. None has a CERF, elbow, or EIC listing. Are we supposed to assume that British line dogs do not suffer from any of the genetic issues facing American bred Labs? All the evidence I have seen says they do.


----------



## Matt Griffiths (Feb 3, 2004)

The yellow pup looked a little reluctant to deliver to hand. Little tug a war going on there, must be a little “Yankee” in that one!


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Matt Griffiths said:


> The yellow pup looked a little reluctant to deliver to hand. Little tug a war going on there, must be a little “Yankee” in that one!


Down around Robert's neck of the woods, ain't those fightin' words?



Yankee regards,


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

had one that willingly brought bumpers and birds back as a pup (she is now with new owners) - she has exceptional trainability and tons of drive...

have another one, half brother to her, that wouldn't even think about bringing back a bird or bumper til he was cc....He has tons of drive and is pretty darn tractable too, but not like his half sister - she beats him in that dept...LOL....

Personally whether a pup brings a bumper back to hand or not makes no difference to me. I want them GOING and loving every minute of it. 

Juli


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Robert,
> 
> Really nice little video .. bar that b***** music!
> 
> ...


Actually Eugene I picked that picture on purpose. Just because a dog delivers to hand at 8 weeks it does not ensure the dog will have proper bird handling manners. Training cannot be excused. The dog in the first pick is the same bitch laying on the bed in the last pic, her name is Scoop. At 8 weeks she would prance around and bring anything I threw for her back to hand. At 3 months she decided she didn't want to give it back and we started working on proper manners of OB and mouth habits. Today at 5 years old she is a great hunting dog, has a Senior title, rides around in the truck with me everywhere and is gentle with birds as any dog I've ever had. She was put through a proper hold and FF program, she went through it pretty easy actually. She's out of a very nice FC AFC male and is a great example that while great breeding is important, it doesn't cancel out proper training.

/Paul


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Paul,

Thanks for the info. I knew there was something at back.

Eug


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> My only problem is the almost complete absence of health clearances for breeding stock.


I have a problem with the lack of clearances also on most of the British type sites. They are here, they can get them the same as we do, and to be credible they need to. They used to sell dogs like that back in the 70's. Instead they change the focus to a trait they are breeding.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I have a problem with the lack of clearances also on most of the British type sites. They are here, they can get them the same as we do, and to be credible they need to. They used to sell dogs like that back in the 70's. Instead they change the focus to a trait they are breeding.


I don't think American breeders made a concerted effort to produce pups with CNM, EIC, PRA or whatever. It was in the Labrador Retriever foundation stock. To think that English-bred dogs don't also carry the same genes is ridiculous. You can have all the deliver-to-hand, calm personality, etc., but what good is it if they are blind, they break down from CHD or don't live past 2 or 3-years-old?


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

rmilner said:


> I realize that most labs have a propensity to deliver to hand. After all, we have been selectively breeding for it for at least 150 years. The question becomes, "what per cent of a typical litter exhibits delivery to hand prior to training or shaping?" Then the next question is, "Is the percentage increasing or decreasing?". I don't have an answer to the questions, but they are questions that breeders should be asking.


In past articles you have claimed that American-bred Labs are losing their propensity to deliver to hand because of American FT trainers using force-fetch to mask it.

Have you now backed off that belief?


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> In past articles you have claimed that American-bred Labs are losing their propensity to deliver to hand because of American FT trainers using force-fetch to mask it.
> 
> Have you now backed off that belief?


He was probably waiting for you to be his perpetual "straight man" to keep the Duck Hill publicity flowing. 

See you at the American Amateur! I'll bring my white coat again!


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> I don't have any problem with the Duck Hill web site or the manner in which it promotes British Labs since it emphasizes the positive and says nothing negative about other Labs.


Here is Bob's other website -- http://www.fetchpup.com/


----------



## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

I must be way board. I had to read what was said about American Field Trials and I about fell out of my chair. You gotta be kidding me. That was was funny stuff.


----------



## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

This from the fetchpup website...
Hunting retriever competitions(in the USA) are not adequately testing obedience and steadiness. They also do not adequately evaluate game finding abilities of the dogs...

This is laughable. US FT dogs are doing multiple marks, sometimes as far as 400-500 yards and they lack game finding abilities!

Just because our dogs don't run with their nose to the ground does not mean they can't find game.

In US FT's the most important trait tested IS game finding abilites whereas in the UK it is more about obedience because the game finding required of the dogs in not difficult.


----------



## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

I would perfer selective breeding with a goal of producing dogs who mark and find the bird the best. Delivering to hand can be trained, outstanding marking can be improved, but if a dog doesnt have it in his genetics, he will not go far in AA. Bud


----------



## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

There you have it Booty !


----------



## 1NarlyBar (Jul 10, 2008)

Mr Booty said:


> In US FT's the most important trait tested IS game finding abilites whereas in the UK it is more about obedience because the game finding required of the dogs in not difficult.



Also, Bobby's description of a British FT states that dogs are not penalized for popping or handling on a downed bird. Hmmmm. 

Also, failure to find a downed bird is a Fault not an ELIMINATION.

That really displays the dog's superior gamefinding ability. Does it not? 

Laughs and Giggles.


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

AmiableLabs said:


> Here is Bob's other website -- http://www.fetchpup.com/


As I said, I have no problem with the Duck Hill web site.

When one cuts through the fog, there appear to be a couple of issues that Mr. Milner identifies as the primary source of weakness in the American FT structure that, by extension, have an impact on breeding of all Labs that is detrimental. 
Training is too good and too effective. As a result of great training, dogs that are genetically deficient (hard mouth, hyperactivity, poor discipline) are able to overcome these problems, win trials, and have an inordinate impact on the gene pool.
American field trials are too competitive, forcing judges to create artificially difficult situations to achieve separation.
Blinds are judged on the ability of dogs to line the bird rather than to hunt the bird while the latter skill is more important in the field.
Marking and lining skills are valued more highly than steadiness, leading to a situation in which dogs that are marginally under control at the line may still win.
As I understand his argument, these problems end up affecting the entire breed. Cosmo might be considered to be the poster child for all that is wrong, yet ends up being a highly popular and successful sire whose traits end up having an inordinate effect on the gene pool.

Interestingly, Milner then seems to discard the entire hunt test venue as being so immersed in field trial traditions that it mirrors the same faults.

All of these comments have been made before and contain elements of truth. Many field trial dogs have issues that make them less than ideal pet/companion dogs for families that will not have them trained to a significant degree. As one who enjoys breeding, I know that I will not breed one of my dogs to a potential sire that is difficult to control going to the line, that continuously shoots out 2-3 yards as each bird is shot, or that is particularly vocal, any more than I would breed to a dog that seemed to have aggressive tendencies. Fortunately, that does not exclude too many dogs.

The negatives of what I read on the fetchpop site are:
While praising the British model as a more appropriate vehicle for identifying breeding candidates, it is never addressed in terms of feasibility. Presumably for it to be a viable arena for identifying dogs that are suitable for breeding, it would have to be available with a number of tests sufficient to accommodate the thousands of dogs now running tests and trials each weekend. In the absence of a model that works, we fall back on simply saying "A couple of my dog's ancestors won a trial in England so, by extension, my dog must be good as well." Not a very strong argument.
In attacking a system that allows a dog that demonstrates poor line manners to win using a single example from a single trial, Mr. Milner ignores the fact that in my experience those dogs almost never win. My own experience of field trials is more limited than many. However, when I am at a trial photographing the dogs I probably see more of _all_ the dogs than anyone else except the judges. Most field trial dogs are steady and quiet at the line. Most dogs at honor aren't just sitting there for 20 seconds as suggested in Mr Milner's article on FT protocol. In fact I've watched honor dogs sit through three consecutive no-birds, each with a flyer being shot, without moving. Would dogs be steadier if this were emphasized more in judging? Yes.
In attacking a system that has judges creating much more difficult marks than would be encountered in a hunting situation, Mr. Milner seems to be saying that this is a bad thing and that those skills are not the ones that should be emphasized. My own observation is that any dog that can mark a bird at 400 yards can also mark at 60. Any dog that can locate a crippled hen pheasant flyer in a typical field trial setting has no problems hunting up a cripple at hunting distances. There is an adjustment when you shift a dog from looking out hundreds of yard to looking at the shorter distances seen in a hunt, but it is not a difficult adjustment. The same is not true in reverse. That is, the ability of a dog to mark and perform blind retrieves at 100 yards tells you little about their abilities at longer FT distances.
Mr. Milner also seems to be saying that by over-training FT dogs we are making them appear to be more talented than they are. Personally, I've never known a FT trainer that would bother wasting time on a dog that has not already demonstrated marking talent, trainability, and desire. If those characteristics aren't there, you may still be able to train an effective gun dog but the dog is never likely to be competitive.
For those reasons, I retain my own personal prejudices. Whether I am breeding a dog for competition, hunting companion, or pet, I want successful competition backgrounds evidenced by titles in field trials and hunt tests to dominate the litter pedigree. I want to see a complete set of health clearances for both parents and a record of good health documented throughout the pedigree. I also want to see that both parents are sane and sensible: good around people and other animals. However, I do not expect an 18 month old Lab in peak competitive form to be as calm as a five year old couch potato, and I do expect all pups to receive basic obedience training and discipline as a minimum to become good citizens. Absent those, I assume that even a British Lab can turn into Marley.


----------



## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

While I agree completely with Jeff Goodwins/Yardley Lab's long post, I do have to agree, with Mr Milner that naturally delivering to hand is definately genetically there or not. I have seen it over and over with a friend's Lab kennel and with my own litters of Goldens. 
In one case of a litter of Goldens- all treated the same, raised by me, littermates. Out of 4 pups, 2 delivered to hand naturually -that is the pup grabbed the duck wing, and it's first impulse was to run squirming up to me, to show me what it got. The other two, grabbed the wing and ran off- fast!
While bringing an item and delivering to hand can and is trained into the majority of dogs (and bringing it to heel is definately trained!) training is faster and easier when you don't have to worry about pup heading for the hills with the duck in it's mouth..Limited to short retrieves with a long line on.
Also, the desire to deliver to hand, or at least, naturally bring back game goes hand in hand with desire to please. I am currently training those 4 pups I mentioned above. The easiest to train, and most talented of the 4 are the dogs that naturally, from the get-go, wanted to bring me the wing.. They were a hell of a lot easier to force-fetch and they have the most "fire"...


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

A video, much more exciting than the written word. Thanks. 

But.......you are encouraging the pups to return to you, in a confined area, so not completely natural as ie working border collie and kelpie same age pups with eye clap, pointers naturally pointing (seemingly frozen), pacing foals-naturally pacing in a field. 

Still cute video. You have a foot injury?. Hope it is on the mend.


----------



## steved05 (Jan 30, 2009)

What are the test you all feel a pup should come with when buying from a breeder? What's the standard out there? I'm curious what the cost is to get these test done?


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

steved05 said:


> What are the test you all feel a pup should come with when buying from a breeder? What's the standard out there? I'm curious what the cost is to get these test done?


I do PennHIP at about six months, OFA Hip, OFA Elbows, CERF (annually), EIC, and CNM. The basic level of tests runs at about $1000+/dog. I add VetGen's chromagene test to this so I know each dog's color factoring ($85). There are a few Optigen tests that could be added to this such as PRA and the new OSD/RD test (price depends on discounts but figure $300 for the pair). Others add thyroid and heart examinations.


----------



## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

Mr. Milner, having now read the stuff on both of your sites....I am a believer....maybe....



I've got a pup that has done her 'number two' in my neighbor's yard since the day I brought her home.

I am going to send her to you, and would like a whole line of selectively bred..."neighbor dumping dogs"...

I understand that this might be a foreign concept, and may off the cuff sound like it has no merit, but wait;

if I use my yard for training....and she uses the neighbor's yard for her daily "number 2's" maybe, just maybe, I can get her to never eliminate where she is working...thus never having to air her at tests, or in the field....

thus proving a higher concentration level than any other labs in this country....











;-) come on, you can't breed traits like that...all pups cling to their fetched items until it is taken from them.....

make me a video of the pup bringing in a ball, and have a bird wing about two feet in front of you....

if that pup brings that ball to hand, and walks right by that bird wing to do so without a switch, I'll buy your theory...probably never buy one of your pups, but I'll buy your theory


----------



## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Gosh, I thought he was just trying to be humorous. Guess I missed that one...


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

DEDEYE said:


> Gosh, I thought he was just trying to be humorous. Guess I missed that one...


DITTO........but I am learning humor don't fly here all the time.

just sayin'


----------



## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEDEYE 
Gosh, I thought he was just trying to be humorous. Guess I missed that one... 



so did I till someone posted a link to his site, and then I went to that.....I think he's serious.


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

marshmonster said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by DEDEYE
> Gosh, I thought he was just trying to be humorous. Guess I missed that one...
> 
> ...


Well......I ain't takin' him serious!!


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

marshmonster said:


> so did I till someone posted a link to his site, and then I went to that.....I think he's serious.


He is serious.


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

No, he won't be serious till he explicates and pontificates about how puppies have been selectively bred since Henry VIII to retrieve *ducks* to hand. As--having judged British field trials--Mr. Milner certainly knows how often ducks are the fare as game over there. Like with, what, Halley's Comet frequency?

MG


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

AmiableLabs said:


> He is serious.


He has posted this video on other forums as well. I'm certain he's serious.


----------



## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

It appears what he is really serious about is marketing. If he can get a national front for his own brand of trials that only his dogs run (very limited entry), they will produce trophy titles printed on the new registry pedigrees thus legitimizing his breeding without having to test his dogs against any major standard. If he can as he suggests sell this through Ducks Unlimited, wow, what a marketing strategy. If you haven't read this it is worth your time.

http://www.fetchpup.com/dogs/breeding.php

I find especially telling the last paragraph:

"The surest road to success for an improved breeding selection process like this would lie in it's adoption by a national organization with an existing infrastructure of local chapters, such as Ducks Unlimited or Pheasants Forever. The registration agency would generate revenue, and the improved gundog breeding selection process would make a valuable and lasting contribution to game conservation." --rmilner


----------



## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

gsc said:


> It appears what he is really serious about is marketing. If he can get a national front for his own brand of trials that only his dogs run (very limited entry), they will produce trophy titles printed on the new registry pedigrees thus legitimizing his breeding without having to test his dogs against any major standard. If he can as he suggests sell this through Ducks Unlimited, wow, what a marketing strategy. If you haven't read this it is worth your time.
> 
> http://www.fetchpup.com/dogs/breeding.php


You know, I've read what is in his website above as well as other comments and as far as I'm concerned, it is so much bovine scat. Insofar as British field trials vs. American field trials and hunt tests, I don't if field trials originated in Britain and then found their way here as Bob claims, nor do I care. But, the fact is that British field trials may simulate a day of hunting *in Britain*, but not a day of hunting in the US. We don't stand around in a group and shoot driven pheasants and grouse. American field trials and hunt tests simulate American hunting (albeit exaggerated in the case of field trials) and emphasize those attributes necessary to a day of hunting in the US.


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

gsc said:


> It appears what he is really serious about is marketing. If he can get a national front for his own brand of trials that only his dogs run (very limited entry), they will produce trophy titles printed on the new registry pedigrees thus legitimizing his breeding without having to test his dogs against any major standard. If he can as he suggests sell this through Ducks Unlimited, wow, what a marketing strategy. If you haven't read this it is worth your time.
> 
> http://www.fetchpup.com/dogs/breeding.php
> 
> ...


Ok, so, do these dogs come with a Guarantee to win a title then??

Just askin'


----------



## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Alright everyone, pretty much every possible attack has been made in this thread towards Mr Millner. How about everyone sit back, relax, and wait for his reply to the 40 or so questions posed here.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I wouldn't feel sorry for him-he put the video on multiple sites knowing the exactly the reception it would receive.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Bad publicity works just as well as good publicity to gain attention to your product...as I found out when my 'silverfreak' ash Chesapeakes gained notoriety on a certain chat board. I've had more puppy inquiries since Dec. 22 than I could ever keep up with. Just sayin'.... ;-)


----------



## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

He doesn't seem to mention health clearances on his breeding dogsand it appears that he has a litter right now from a sire and dam that are not even two years old!


----------



## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

Wow! I wonder why he is not worried about delivery to hand. Must not be a retriever with good genetics 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWNDVEngc_I


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> Bad publicity works just as well as good publicity to gain attention to your product...as I found out when my 'silverfreak' ash Chesapeakes gained notoriety on a certain chat board. I've had more puppy inquiries since Dec. 22 than I could ever keep up with. Just sayin'.... ;-)


Caveat Emptor.


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I would like to ask Mr Milner why it's important to breed a dog that genetically will deliver to hand? As, that certainly can be a trained behavior, even if you don't force fetch. 
If the theory is that any pup that naturally delivers to hand will be a more cooperative, trainable pup, I just don't buy it. Lack of brains, talent, desire, made for some of the toughest/not fun to train dogs we have ever owned. You don't need those traits simply to deliver to hand. 

Never owned any dog, didn't eventually deliver any bird. Sure have owned dogs that couldn't mark, were dumb as rocks, lazy, not team players.... That kind of says to me, what kind of things I look for in any breeding. Genetic delivery to hand would be at the bottom of any list. If there is such a thing. 

Cute video, means exactly nothing to me. Rudy at 8 weeks would not even go for such a short throw. She thought we could get that one ourselves.( right of course ) We had to do bumpers with ropes, and hand toss as far as we could......


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

YardleyLabs said:


> Training is too good and too effective. As a result of great training, dogs that are genetically deficient (hard mouth, hyperactivity, poor discipline) are able to overcome these problems, win trials, and have an inordinate impact on the gene pool.
> 
> Mr. Milner also seems to be saying that by over-training FT dogs we are making them appear to be more talented than they are.


Sorta giving us a lot of credit for a guy who turns around and says we should be training dogs differently, huh?


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

HuntinDawg said:


> Sorta giving us a lot of credit for a guy who turns around and says we should be training dogs differently, huh?


Don't shoot the messenger. I was simply trying to summarize the arguments on the fetchpop web site. The point I made subsequently is that no one would bother with advanced training for a dog that did not already evidence trainability, drive, and marking.


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

YardleyLabs said:


> Don't shoot the messenger. I was simply trying to summarize the arguments on the fetchpop web site. The point I made subsequently is that no one would bother with advanced training for a dog that did not already evidence trainability, drive, and marking.


Yeah, I got that. I'm just saying that it is ironic that, intentionally or not, he is actually complimenting our training methods. This is ironic because he does not endorse a Carr based training method, right?

Can't have it both ways. Is our training so wonderful that it masks the genetic deficiencies of our dogs (so we need British dogs) or are our training methods inferior so we need to buy his book and train his way??? Can't have it both ways.


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Jake Lunsford said:


> I am not forced to buy a dog from you and neither is anyone else, so I won't try an bad mouth you in public.


I fail to see any logic to that statement.

I "bad mouth" (read _criticize_) things I am not forced to by all the time, PARTICULARLY if they are harmful, destructive, dangerous, poorly made, not as advertised, too expensive, etc. And I appreciate the opinions and experiences of others who do too. 

Heck, a whole magazine _CONSUMER REPORTS_ is in the business of criticizing (read "bad mouthing" and "good mouthing") products people "are not forced to buy."


----------



## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

I find this very interesting. I was a hunter before I ran field trial dogs. I got into the game because I wanted to see what could be done with a higher level of training. Personaly I have hunted over many great hunting dogs many of which were bought from a ad in the giant nickel. The truth is with a good look at the parents most hunters can find a dog like Mr Milner speaks of for a few hundred bucks. For the average hunter these types of dogs are the way to go. We hunt on the Columbia River in Eastern Washingon the wind is usually blowing 30 plus and temperatures are often below 20. So I invite you to bring you're British labs up for a hunt. Expect to see a chocolate American bread field trial dog sitting in the blind with us. But when the birds go down and the dogs are looking out into the great blue at 3 to 4 footers blowing sideways I will bet there is only one dog in that blind that will make it past the Decoys. With all due respect I am sure you sell a great product for a select group but enough with the BS generalizations about field trial dogs. There are good ones and bad ones just like in the British lines.
________
Expert insurance


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Jake Lunsford said:


> That's ok. I don't care.


Based on your previous post, I am not surprised.:monkey:


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

it's too bad most of the people posting on this thread are so close-minded about the idea of enhancing the breed's tendency to deliver and handle birds with less intensive training. 

this trait is really just a facet of temperament and we ALL want to see dogs bred for excellence in this characteristic. at least i do. temperament and health come first in my book.

the less time i need to spend to train a dog on proper delivery, the better. it would give me more time to train on more interesting and fun to teach skills.

then there's the fact that Mr. Milner is a dear and close friend of Chris. when you bash him (and you do it without fail, every time he posts on here) it's as though Chris invited you to his house for for a beer or cup of coffee and you start tearing up his friend. this forum is his "house". we are all invited to come and discuss topics that interest us. a little tolerance for methods and ideas we don't agree with should be applied. my mother and father would have called this "good manners", as i'm pretty sure yours would have too.-Paul


----------



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

paul young said:


> it's too bad most of the people posting on this thread are so close-minded about the idea of enhancing the breed's tendency to deliver and handle birds with less intensive training.
> 
> this trait is really just a facet of temperament and we ALL want to see dogs bred for excellence in this characteristic. at least i do. temperament and health come first in my book.
> 
> ...


 




I have read most of the posts here but not all. Seems a lot of them are not bashing anyone just disagreeing which I do also.
With all due respect to Mr Milner, oh ya and my buddy Chris too, I totally disagree that delivery to hand can bred into the dog. It is the overall temperment and mind set of the pup that makes it WANT to deliver to hand that is hereditary not the act to deliver alone.
I also agree with others that say most pups, not all, this age will do this but as they grow older it usually does not stick with them and has to be taught. The pups in Mr Milners video look great but I see nothing unusual about them so to me claiming that delivering to hand is hereditary is a bit far fetched to me.
I think puppy videos and pictures like this should be banned from RTF because it makes me want one and I already have too many


----------



## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree with Paul Young's post.

WE all agree that the games in Europe are different than the field trial games in the U.S.I think that the differences in the games determines the differnces in the traits that someone is trying to breed for or looking for when buying a pup. We all know the traits, marking ability, drive, desire, nose, willingness to please, trainability, independence, intensity, calmness, intelligence,athleticism, healthy etc. Then there is always the post from the person that wants the perfect dog, and we all go get in line. Who would not want the calm intelligent dog with superior marking ability with all the drive to boot,that hit the water hard, that naturally delivered the bird to hand with style.

So I guess the question is are some of these traits contrary? So you play the games you want, you pick the traits that you want naturally and you train for the traits that you can train for.

I do feel that for a new person without help it is more fun and easier to start with a dog that naturally wants to deliver to hand and does not have excited mouth issues.

The pups in the video all did well. Situationally it did seem a little contrived. I have personally witnessed what he described as naturally delivering to hand with a 9 week old pup in an open field with a bird in cover, retrieve bird return to handler with bird sit down next to handler with bird in mouth and look up at handler( handler is kneeling) handler takes bird. So, you can definitely breed for it. Will it win you a field trial in the U.S. on Saturday, probably not.

Colleen


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

LabLady said:


> Wow! I wonder why he is not worried about delivery to hand. Must not be a retriever with good genetics
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWNDVEngc_I


Pat Nolan is a very successful young dog trainer. His video is very natural with the handler totally relaxed, not hovering. I would like to see if those same puppies would deliver to hand outside, not in a small space. I actually used to take the retrieved objects away from the puppies too soon also. Pat is doing it right. I'm putting this link in my puppy notes.


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I haven't read anyone bashing either,
Just some strong opposing opinions.
Robert does make valid points if you look at things from his angle and his angle is guided by his proffessional opinion.
I have no idea if he is trying to market or just extremely dedicated in his enthusiasm to find the perfect retriever / looking at it through his angle.

Maby its true that a euro dog with no training and an ignorant dog handler is best served with a euro dog. Who knows.

I wouldn't call what he says in his website bashing,,, rather his proffessional gun dog opinion.
Just as US trials are artificial so are Euro trials
Others here have stated their opinion ,,,but not have stated why an american FT dog would make a better gun dog for an average hunter who will not train or learn about dogs. I would be interested in reading someones view why US dogs make better gun dogs.

I can see his point,,, but may or may not not agree with it in its entirety.



Pete


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I haven't read anyone bashing either,
Just some strong opposing opinions.
Robert does make valid points if you look at things from his angle and his angle is guided by his proffessional opinion.
I have no idea if he is trying to market or just extremely dedicated in his enthusiasm to find the perfect retriever / looking at it through his angle.

Maby its true that a euro dog with no training and an ignorant dog handler is best served with a euro dog. Who knows.

I wouldn't call what he says in his website bashing,,, rather his proffessional gun dog opinion.
Just as US trials are artificial so are Euro trials
Others here have stated their opinion ,,,but not have stated why an american FT dog would make a better gun dog for an average hunter who will not train or learn about dogs. I would be interested in reading someones view why US dogs make better gun dogs.

I can see his point,,, but may or may not not agree with it in its entirety.



Pete


----------



## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

"Others here have stated their opinion ,,,but not have stated why an american FT dog would make a better gun dog for an average hunter who will not train or learn about dogs. I would be interested in reading someones view why US dogs make better gun dogs."

-Pete



Pete, I get the general feeling from reading this thread, and others involving Mr Milner, Wildrose etc, that exactly what you are looking for, is exactly the reason there are 8 pages here protesting his theory....Nobody believes American dogs are better, just as most don't believe British dogs are better...but in fact that either dog is capable of the same things under the proper tutelage.

It is Mr Milner who on his site, states that he has a superior dog. And he states the others (Americans) are inferior.

The disdain I have detected in threads like this is one for the arrogance accompanying statements like that, not for the British dogs themselves.. It then seems unlikely that you will see someone show such arrogance on behalf of the American lab as a defense. That would only be hypocrisy.

From what I have read, the general consensus is that most people don't really see a difference, (other than physical appearance), in the dogs, ie: trainablity, health, drive (okay some say Brits are slower, but no less determined) etc.

If he were not marketing, but looking for the perfect retriever, enthusiastically, as you put it...

wouldn't he want the best of each style, Brit and American, and want to advance the positives of each, and eradicate the negatives of each...

after all, the BREED, is the LABRADOR RETERIEVER....there are no sub headings for nationality


----------



## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

I understand what is trying to be done here geneticlly, but aren't we working with retrievers? If they don't bring back then their just labradors.
For years these dogs were used to bring in the bouy line on fishing nets, this ability to bring it to a specific spot was engrained into their DNA way back then. So, if this is true then all we need to do is teach the spot to come to. I beleive we always will have to "Show Puppy" what we want.
If you could geneticlly change the mind set, then this world would be full of geniuses because we bred it into the gene pool. I think not.


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

marshmonster said:


> Pete, I get the general feeling from reading this thread, and others involving Mr Milner, Wildrose etc, that exactly what you are looking for, is exactly the reason there are 8 pages here protesting his theory....Nobody believes American dogs are better, just as most don't believe British dogs are better...but in fact that either dog is capable of the same things under the proper tutelage.
> 
> It is Mr Milner who on his site, states that he has a superior dog. And he states the others (Americans) are inferior.
> 
> ...


What a great post. My beliefs exactly, except more articulate, more tactful, and less confrontational.

Thank you.


----------



## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

marshmonster said:


> "Others here have stated their opinion ,,,but not have stated why an american FT dog would make a better gun dog for an average hunter who will not train or learn about dogs. I would be interested in reading someones view why US dogs make better gun dogs."
> 
> -Pete
> 
> ...


Sorry skipped right over your post. I agree 100% with this. It's basically the same thing with color, most people have been lead to believe that the only lab capable of being alphabet soup are black dogs. I disagree with this. Like you said under the right tudaledge any color lab can be alphabet soup, same goes with American and Brit dogs.


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

But I wasn't refering to a dog with training or maintanence. everyone here trains their dog but

I have seen hunters from coast to coast and most of them have 1 thing in common. They own hunting breeds but expect them hunt well without training ,,,,generally an out of control dog with hearing problems. 

So being this is fact and not fiction.
Would you rather have a hard charging,,, big running ,,hearing impaired ,highly driven dog to deal with ,,,or a softer temperament and ,,, out of control hearing impaired,,,,mid range dog that you can chase down,,,,,

Remember that training is not allowed in this scenerio because we are talking about your average guy who thinks a well trained dog jumps up on a couch when you tap it and sits pretty when its time to eat.

Your looking at this from a dog training view point,,,I'm looking at this from a grab the dog and go hunting view point which is way more prevalent than ,,,,,, take some time to train the dog view point.


The confusion comes in because everybody here trains their dog so you look at it from a different angle Your all spoiled

If everybody puts in the effort to work their dog then even many dog pound dogs make good hunters.

So I will take a shot to the head here and say I would rather chase down a brittish dog than an Am.dog. 

If you like I'll tell you why from my angle.

Pete


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Pete, in order to win the argument you set up a false dichotomy.

My experience is that those hunters who have an out of control dog they "need to chase down" ruin the hunt for themselves and anyone else in a blind nearby. I would wish they would have a dog they did not have to chase down, or no dog out hunting with them at all. 

A dog you mistakenly perceive to be easier to chase down is not an option.


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

No, Kevin, apropos your and Pete's untrained animals, the dichotomy is this: We in the US have the best retriever trainers in the world, and we have the worst retrievers trainers in the world. And the dogs 99 percent of the time are what *we* make of them.

Unless, that is, they come selectively bred to retrieve to hand and are born trained (or born pre-trained for gentlemen). Then you've got a sales job and, if you buy into it, something else _*on*_ your hands.

MG


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> "Would you rather have a hard charging....big running....hearing impaired, highly driven dog to deal with....or a softer temperament and....out of control hearing impaired.....mid range dog that you can chase down...."


I never looked it that way before. 

Still chuckling regards, Jim


----------



## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Pete, so what you are saying that your gonna geneticlly make a dog that would need no training at all. 
Here's a what I'm seeing Hey Fiddo want to go hunting today? In the back of the owners mind is he gonna see something that will just make everyone in the blind never want to hunt with a dog again.

Well if you accomplish this then say goodbye to all the training facilities.


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Let me clarify what Milner says about field trials and field trials dogs. The below quote has been sitting at fetchpup.com for 10 years:




"One must therefore question the validity of many of the testing criteria that have evolved in American field trials. Most of those testing criteria evaluate trained behavior as opposed to inherited behavior, and most of the criteria evaluate behaviors that are of limited or no value in a gundog. 

That is not to say that field trials are simple or easy or insignificant. Field trials are a tremendous challenge to the intelligence of dog and skill of trainer. The canine behaviors required to win are very complex and require a lot of complex training. The problem lies in the fact that many of the behaviors being trained have no value in a hunting dog. Retriever field trials have become game unto themselves. They are driving a breeding selection process that produces more good field trial dogs. 

A young dog that is a typical good field trial prospect doesn't generally fit the profile for a good gun dog prospect. The field trial prospect would be a very high energy, hyperactive dog that is able to take continuous training and not get bored. The field trial prospect would also be a relatively tough dog that can take the pressure required to train complex field trial behaviors. 

The good gun dog prospect on the other hand would be a calm, cooperative soft dog. That dog would be easy for the average hunter to train. Unfortunately the Field trial driven breeding selection produces less and less good hunting dog prospects."



I am marketing British dogs as having a high probability of calmness, sensitvity and ease of training. I also promote them as better suited to the average hunter who does not train dogs every day, and does not want to.

Some of you guys seem to be marketing a lot more vigorously to the hunter that American field trial dogs are better for them. Who is doing the most marketing here?


Best Regards,


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pete, in order to win the argument you set up a false dichotomy.
> 
> My experience is that those hunters who have an out of control dog they "need to chase down" ruin the hunt for themselves and anyone else in a blind nearby. I would wish they would have a dog they did not have to chase down, or no dog out hunting with them at all.
> 
> A dog you mistakenly perceive to be easier to chase down is not an option.


Kevin I do agree that out of control dogs are annoying,,,but the fact still remains most hunting dogs bought for hunting in the US have very little training and perform just as I have said. So it is my contention that when one sells a gun dog to someone who has no intentions of training it ,,,its best to give them a gentilemans shooting type dog with enough natural ability for the hunter not to induce a stroke.



> [No, Kevin, apropos your and Pete's untrained animals, the dichotomy is this: We in the US have the best retriever trainers in the world, and we have the worst retrievers trainers in the world. And the dogs 99 percent of the time are what *we* make of them.
> 
> Unless, that is, they come selectively bred to retrieve to hand and are born trained (or born pre-trained for gentlemen). Then you've got a sales job and, if you buy into it, something else _*on*_ your hands.
> 
> ...


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> The field trial prospect would be a very high energy, hyperactive dog that is able to take continuous training and not get bored. The field trial prospect would also be a relatively tough dog that can take the pressure required to train complex field trial behaviors.


I disagree with both of these statements. You're painting all field trial retrievers with the same brush. FC's are made from both hard and soft dogs. Somewhat on the soft side with good desire and great natural marking is what I want in a field trial prospect.



> The good gun dog prospect on the other hand would be a calm, cooperative soft dog.


Are you saying American Field trialers don't want these traits?


----------



## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

What about the total lack of health clearences? I've noticed that the UK dogs in Oxford, Ms. don't have any health clearences either. 

That has to be the ugly part about being a breeder and as numerous as the UK bred dogs are, this must be a subject UK breeders don't want to touch. I'm sure they have thier fair share of health issues.


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

rmilner said:


> Let me clarify what Milner says about field trials and field trials dogs. The below quote has been sitting at fetchpup.com for 10 years:


So I'm inferring it's 10 years, maybe 30 years' outdated--and could stand a good revising? Howard's "marketing" that notion pretty convincingly above. But you might also extrapolate from his comments that he ain't marketing his retrievers except for what he and, oh, 15,000 folks--field trialers or not--who buy performance Labs every year want in one.

MG


----------



## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

So, to summarize, its all genetics and thats what we train for?


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Pete said:


> Kevin I do agree that out of control dogs are annoying,,,


No, they are more than annoying, they have no business in the field.



> but the fact still remains most hunting dogs bought for hunting in the US have very little training and perform just as I have said. So it is my contention that when one sells a gun dog to someone who has no intentions of training it ,,,its best to give them a gentilemans shooting type dog


No, the only answer is to leave the dog home! That is not only the "best" answer it is the only "right" answer. Here we have a classic case of pragmatism versus principle. "Pragmatism" works only when there is a sliding scale of what is morally and ethically right. When it is black and white, it is time to be "principled." It is ALWAYS wrong to bring an uncontrollable retriever to the blind/boat/field. 

If you want to bring your dog hunting, around loaded firearms, and possibly on a boat -- train it. Finis.



> with enough natural ability for the hunter not to induce a stroke.


You are buying into the false propaganda that "American Labs are hyper."


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> [/QUYou are buying into the false propaganda that "American Labs are hyper Quote
> 
> Kevin
> How did you come up with that.
> ...


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

rmilner said:


> The field trial prospect would be a very high energy, hyperactive dog that is able to take continuous training and not get bored.


Not true. This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what true "hyperactivity" is, and is what we might expect from someone uninitiated who had attended a field trial and had jumped to some conclusions. Not to say you are uninitiated Bob, I am just saying this is what you might to expect from someone who is uninitiated.

In forty-plus years I have seen one truly "hyper" Lab. It was from backyard breeding. The dog only settled down when it went to sleep. In the house it paced incessantly, and drove its owners crazy with begging for activity even when they were relaxing. The dog wasn't "nervous." The dog wasn't "full of energy." The dog was just truly hyper under every and all situations and only settled down to go to sleep.

Now if someone who didn't know any better were to come to a HT or FT and watch my line-bred American-FT dogs, they might think they were hyper, because they get so excited when they are about to run. They certainly look and act "hyper!"

But in the house my dogs are relaxed and complacent, perfect pets. And when we hunt, both walking upland and waterfowl from a boat or blind, they are happy but contained, very business-like. Not at all like when they are at a FT or HT.

What the uninitiated is seeing out of my dogs at a FT/HT is not hyperactivity at all. It is _drive_, and expression of _desire_. "Desire" to work, to retrieve, is the only trait a trainer cannot put into a dog. And all of a successful training program is built on it. "You want to retrieve again? You will have to deliver to hand." "You want to retrieve again? You will have to sit at my side and be steady." To breed away from "desire" would be counterproductive.

So whenever someone accuses American FT bred dogs of being "hyper" I am forced to ask myself, why would they say that? Ignorance (read "Not knowing any better") is a valid excuse that I can live with. But if they are not ignorant, then what?


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

rmilner said:


> Some of you guys seem to be marketing a lot more vigorously to the hunter that American field trial dogs are better for them. Who is doing the most marketing here?


Citations please?

Go read Marshmonster's post again. We are not saying American-bred Labs are better than British-bred. We object to you saying British-bred are better because American-bred are deficient (ie. "hyper").


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Its been tough, but FF this British cat is finally coming along nicely....he's a natural....


/Paul


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> Not true. This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what true "hyperactivity" is, and is what we might expect from someone uninitiated who had attended a field trial and had jumped to some conclusions. Not to say you are uninitiated Bob, I am just saying this is what you might to expect from someone who is uninitiated.
> 
> In forty-plus years I have seen one truly "hyper" Lab. It was from backyard breeding. The dog only settled down when it went to sleep. In the house it paced incessantly, and drove its owners crazy with begging for activity even when they were relaxing. The dog wasn't "nervous." The dog wasn't "full of energy." The dog was just truly hyper under every and all situations and only settled down to go to sleep.
> 
> ...


I am reasonably certain Kevin, that you have taken this bait more times than that Mississippi catfish that Robert kept throwing back in the water down at Tunica. 

I'm pretty sure he loves the fight, but wants to keep tossing you back in for another day. I'd imagine one day you'll become like those lunker trout in the flyfishing-only area on Kettle Creek in beautiful Potter County, PA. They've seen 'em all, and they rarely rise...usually only for the real stuff, worthy of their efforts.

Robert, I might as well start invoicing Duck Hill Kennels. I think you are getting more free advertising on here than some of the sponsors! 

The water's a little muddy from recent rains. Try the chartreuse "hyper" jig...

What's a "limit" anyhow?

Chris


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I am reasonably certain Kevin, that you have taken this bait more times than that Mississippi catfish that Robert kept throwing back in the water down at Tunica.
> 
> I'm pretty sure he loves the fight, but wants to keep tossing you back in for another day. I'd imagine one day you'll become like those lunker trout in the flyfishing-only area on Kettle Creek in beautiful Potter County, PA. They've seen 'em all, and they rarely rise...usually only for the real stuff, worthy of their efforts.
> 
> ...


 
Funny analogy Chris. Well said, and you kept it on the lighter side. 

Juli


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

After watching the video I came to the conclusion of thats why they call them RETRIEVERS not RUN THE OTHER WAYERS. I did have an ENGLISH pointer once that was a run the other wayer, sucker was fast too.


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I am reasonably certain Kevin, that you have taken this bait more times than that Mississippi catfish that Robert kept throwing back in the water down at Tunica.


Stupid me, being a stickler for truth. When will I ever learn to keep my mouth shut and let lies triumph. :roll:

So what do you say Bob? Are American-bred Labs hyper or not?


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

[LEFT said:


> *labman63*[/left];441499]After watching the video I came to the conclusion of *thats * why they call them RETRIEVERS not RUN THE OTHER WAYERS. I did have an ENGLISH pointer once that was a run the other *wayer*, sucker was fast too.


We had a field-bred Irish Setter who was an outstanding bird dog but HATED to retrieve. One day we were hunting in thick beans, she went on point, I flushed a covey of quail, dropping one in the heavy cover. 

My wife, myself, and both our kids hunted and hunted for that stupid dead quail, while my Irish Setter became increasingly impatient with us -- hunting up ahead, running back to us, hunting up ahead, running back to us. Finally, she couldn't take it anymore, she went over to the quail, picked it up, came back to me and spit it out at my feet, turned around and began prancing away continuing the hunt. :shock:

All four of us at once just broke out in uproarious laughter! :lol: You had to have been there.


----------



## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

Pete said:


> But I wasn't refering to a dog with training or maintanence. everyone here trains their dog but
> 
> I have seen hunters from coast to coast and most of them have 1 thing in common. They own hunting breeds but expect them hunt well without training ,,,,generally an out of control dog with hearing problems.
> 
> ...


Pete, good post. There have been other discussions on here where I've tried to relate the ave joe huntin dog owner's perspective and haven't been very successful. The level of training the ave dog I see in the fields is minimal at best. 
We often forget how much above the average hunting dog our mutts are. Even my large, smelly, ornery chessie is better than most I see. 

Brian


----------



## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

AmiableLabs said:


> We had a field-bred Irish Setter who was an outstanding bird dog but HATED to retrieve. One day we were hunting in thick beans, she went on point, I flushed a covey of quail, dropping one in the heavy cover.
> 
> My wife, myself, and both our kids hunted and hunted for that stupid dead quail, while my Irish Setter became increasingly impatient with us -- hunting up ahead, running back to us, hunting up ahead, running back to us. Finally, she couldn't take it anymore, she went over to the quail, picked it up, came back to me and spit it out at my feet, turned around and began prancing away continuing the hunt. :shock:
> 
> All four of us at once just broke out in uproarious laughter! :lol: You had to have been there.


Great story. I hunted with a GSP he pointed we kicked and kicked and moved on. He disappears and comes back after we had moved 200 yrds with the bird in his mouth.


----------



## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> No, the only answer is to leave the dog home! That is not only the "best" answer it is the only "right" answer. Here we have a classic case of pragmatism versus principle. "Pragmatism" works only when there is a sliding scale of what is morally and ethically right. When it is black and white, it is time to be "principled." It is ALWAYS wrong to bring an uncontrollable retriever to the blind/boat/field.


Spoken like a true dog trainer. However, if it is your boat, your marsh, or your field, I would suspect most would feel that they'll bring their dog - trained or not. 

I hunt with some real nice folks like that and I can either not hunt with them or understand it is part of the deal and make accomodations. Most of the time I make accomodations. Private land is cool and I'd hate to be rude.


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

AmiableLabs said:


> Now if someone who didn't know any better were to come to a HT or FT and watch my line-bred American-FT dogs, they might think they were hyper, because they get so excited when they are about to run. They certainly look and act "hyper!"
> 
> But in the house my dogs are relaxed and complacent, perfect pets. And when we hunt, both walking upland and waterfowl from a boat or blind, they are happy but contained, very business-like. Not at all like when they are at a FT or HT.


I think this is the critical point.

Let me preface this by saying that I have never owned what most of the people on this board (field trial folks anyway) would call a "fire breather." My current dog runs very hard on marks and is a fast swimmer, but he is not a fire breather and does not run his blinds as hard as marks.

I think this business about hyper American bred lab not being good family dogs because they are hyper is a bunch of hogwash. Do a search and find a thread on the RTF where people are asking about dogs coming home from their pro. Over and over I've seen people asking questions about their dog coming home from their pro. They want to know how long it will take them to adjust and the responses always come back something like this: "Mine was curled up on the couch in less than 5 minutes." Now I don't let mine on the couch, but that has been my experience as well. If I pick up a bumper, shotgun, etc. he ignores the kids (I'm not even sure he sees them) and his whole mission is to make sure he doesn't get left inside the house when I leave. Otherwise he is on the floor with the kids crawling all over him. My old lab was the same way and American bred. Maybe there are dogs with no off switch but I haven't heard of them and I've never heard anybody at a hunt test, field trial, duck blind, etc., complain that their dog is too much around the house.

One might say that is because these dogs are being exercised. All dogs need exercise. You can turn on the Dog Whisperer any night of the week and see some out of control dog driving a family nuts. The dog may be of any breed or a mixed breed. The first thing Cesar prescribes is exercise. They don't have to go run 400 yard marks, but take the darned dog for a walk, a jog, a swim, etc.

When I see one of these brit lab proponents say or imply that the American bred Lab is not a good (or as good of a) family dog, it makes me want to punch them in the nose. I wouldn't do that, but it definitely makes me discount the rest of what they have to say by some margin.


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I am reasonably certain Kevin, that you have taken this bait more times than that Mississippi catfish that Robert kept throwing back in the water down at Tunica.





AmiableLabs said:


> Stupid me, being a stickler for truth. When will I ever learn to keep my mouth shut and let lies triumph. :roll:


Kevin, let me try and ameliorate any tension between you and the purveyor of the fish story (and all that's posted here, good lad that he is).

Rather than catfish, believe he meant to make an analogy between crappie--which are selectively spawned to have a soft mouth that bites anything _*thrown at them*_ rather than being thrown back--but still have a little difficulty in being retrieved to hand because of that soft mouth.

In other words, if you try too hard to reel them in, you can pull the hook right through it, kind of like what Mr. Milner seems bent on doing with his propensity for marketing on this site and others...;-)

MG


----------



## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

"Great story. I hunted with a GSP he pointed we kicked and kicked and moved on. He disappears and comes back after we had moved 200 yrds with the bird in his mouth."


we were duck hunting a little island and my gsp went on point whle we were putting out decoys and I called him back to the blind. I figured he had a mouse, or a mole or whatever..he was only a yr old, and pointed everything at that time.

We shot 4 ducks and after each retrieve he would go to the same spot and point. Each time I called him back, and was getting frustrated.

My buddy got out of the blind to relieve himself, and kicked out a woodcock. Thing flushed right up in his face and scared the hell out of him.

The GSP watched it fly away and then looked at me, like "dude, why do ya think I kept pointing over there?" then he turned his head and laid down like he was ignoring me or something..


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

paul young said:


> it's too bad most of the people posting on this thread are so close-minded


Fair enough but we love our dogs. Yu can insult my husband, heck insult (and debate with me), but belittle my labs and you are in the danger zone. 

Moving on................Mr Milner,

You mentioned one criteria, delivering to hand.

Can we move to another subject.

From your web site, you have trained FEMA dogs, what behaviours or criteria do you look for? Have you found different levels of drive in particular dogs. Are whole litters consistent?


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Aussie,
For Fema dogs I look for about the same traits as in a good gundog. I want to see parents with a high degree of hunting persistence, and that are fairly tractable, since most Fema handlers are a bit low in dog handling skills (just as most hunters are). One trait that is important is quick adaptability to new and shocking environments. Because of this some of the British lab strains tend to have some shyness that make them less suitable for FEMA work.

My thinking is that the best prediction for a litter is that they will tend to approximate their parents in behavioral and appearance traits.I haven't found litters to be consistant across a litter. I look at genetics as probabilities. I think any individual trait is going to tend to be distributed across the litter in a normal distribution (curve). 

Certainly I have found different levels of drive in dogs. For FEMA work I will generally look for a little higher drive than for a gundog. The fema dog is going to be trained to hunt a secondary target (buried person) and be rewarded with a retrieve. You can't go out and shoot birds for him to bolster his drive like you can a gundog.

Best Regards,
Robert Milner


----------

