# Bare spots - Ivomec Horse wormer bare spots?



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

A while back there was a discussion about using horse wormer cream with Ivomec on a dog's elbows to clear up callus spots. The argument was that the spots were areas where demodectic mites had taken over and the horse wormer with Ivomec would kill those mites and allow hair to regrow.

We've had a couple of recent posts about bare spots, demodectic mange, etc. Has anyone tried using Ivomec horse wormer cream for those isolated spots? Did it work?


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I just use the liquid Ivomec that I mix for heartworms. Works GREAT for me. No dogs have ugly elbows.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I have a questions about this. How do you know you are not giving a dog an overdose of Ivomec if you are also using this for heartworm prevention?


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I just wet my finger with Ivomec and rub on elbow. I don't do it at the same time I dose for heartworms.....


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Watrdawg how much is and overdose? People taik about and overdose all the time, I've never heard of one dog that has overdose on Ivermectin.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> I just wet my finger with Ivomec and rub on elbow. I don't do it at the same time I dose for heartworms.....


hoping that you wear a rubber glove when you do this, if not you are absorbing ivermectin through your skin.....


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I have the same question as Mark. Has anyone had a dog overdose or even become ill due to the use of ivermectin meant for horses? or Pigs?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

EdA said:


> hoping that you wear a rubber glove when you do this, if not you are absorbing ivermectin through your skin.....


Is that bad?


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

CBR KAIE said:


> Is that bad?


Depends. If you do it regularly, you shouldn't have to worry about getting heartworms.....you or your dog. ;-)


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Archer said:


> Depends. If you do it regularly, you shouldn't have to worry about getting heartworms.....you or your dog. ;-)


Kind of like Grandpa used to spray Lysol in his ears when he had an ear infection....


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## Charles Pugh (Dec 11, 2006)

Dr. Ed. What is the proper way to use ivomermectin with a solution as a heartworm prevention tool?


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

2tall said:


> I have the same question as Mark. Has anyone had a dog overdose or even become ill due to the use of ivermectin meant for horses? or Pigs?


I had a friend that had one of his beagles that overdosed on imovec. he gave it to her and then when he put out a dose for the second dog on a buiscuit the first dog grabbed it, it was pretty ugly when he went back out an hour later.
jim


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Mark Sehon said:


> People taik about and overdose all the time, I've never heard of one dog that has overdose on Ivermectin.


 My son accidentally overdosed his dog a few years ago. His dog weighed 80 lbs... He had misread the dosage and given him way too much and almost immediately the dog started staggering/drooling. He called me, and I told him to get the dog to the animal emergency clinic as fast as he could drive there, and I would call them and tell them what had happened. The dog went into seizures, convulsions on the way to the vet. Later temporary blindness...almost died twice during the first 24 hours. He stayed at animal emergency clinic for four days (evenings) and back at the vet's during the days for supportive care/IVs, medications. It's amazing he survived with only partial vision loss and very sensitive stomach.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Based on my two vets here in Rochester who are reluctant to use Ivomec/Ivermectin to treat skin issues or for heart worm because they are concerned about overdose (either too much for skin or miscalculation by human for heart), and what I read on the net about the increased dosage amount required to treat skin issues.

I read on one internet website that .7 CC is "lethal dose". However, based on what RTF'rs have used to treat skin without overdose, who knows??

Those who've posted here about using higher Ivomec dosage for skin issues have consulted their vets--and have taken their vets' advice. That's what I do too and am trying the ProMeris flea/tick on my dog with skin issues. Considering how bad my dog's skin condition is, I would have been willing to try Ivomec and may still push my vet to try Ivomec if the ProMeris is too stinky or doesn't work.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

1% Ivermectin solution contains 10 mg/ml or 10,000 mcg/ml

the dose for heartworms (on label) 6-12 mcg/kg or approximately 3-6 mcg/lb

extra label use dosages for Demodecosis and other ecto parasites are 300-600 mcg/kg or approximately 150-300 mcg/lb

acute toxicity may occur at dosages of 1000 mcg/lb which would be the equivalent of giving 1cc of 1% oral ivermectin solution to a 10 lb dog

Collies, Shetland Sheepdogs, and other herding breeds are particularly sensitive to ivermectin toxicity and signs of toxicity m ay occur at much lower dosages

from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Dr Ed,

Would you please explain the blood/brain barrier and is there an age too young to use Ivomec? I read something about concerns with blood/brain barrier for pups under 4 months of age.

Also, do you have an opinion on my original post about using horse wormer cream to dab on small bare spots?

thx. ann


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I'm not Dr. Ed and most certainly not a vet, but I've used ivermectin horse paste wormer for years on elbows and yes it does work. I learned about this when I was foxhunting, the huntsmen used to put it on the hounds' elbows when it came time to get them ready for the big spring hound shows at Morven Park and Bryn Mawr.
Hound keeping is very different from how retrievers are kenneled; foxhunts usually keep anywhere from 30-60 couples of hounds or more (60-120 hounds) I know of one nearby hunt that used to keep about 400 hounds (the huntsman had his 'deer pack'...LOL). They live together in groups usually separated by sex in concrete runs with wooden benches so they often get the elbow callouses. Like our dogs, some are just more prone than others.

It was explained to me by a huntsman that the constant abrasion on their elbows leaves little fissures that the mites (that all dogs have) further irritate preventing them from healing and eventually forming the callouses. The ivermectin kills the mites and allows them to heal and most eventually do regrow hair. You don't use but a tiny amount, about the size of a worn down pencil eraser and rub it in. I'm sure some is absorbed through the skin of both canine and human, but not much. I've been doing it for 20-some years and I'm still alive ;-) and never had a dog OD on it either. it's a cheap, easy fix that works.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Julie R. said:


> I've been doing it for 20-some years and I'm still alive ;-) and never had a dog OD on it either.


Do you test negative for heartworm ?


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

How many times, or how often do you have to apply it?


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

bump bump bump


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## Lisa S. (May 23, 2003)

Thank you! My dog has been in the house full time for 2 years and still has kennel elbow. Be fixing that starting today.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I have heard of a laser treatment available for the elbows.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Based on my two vets here in Rochester who are reluctant to use Ivomec/Ivermectin to treat skin issues or for heart worm because they are concerned about overdose (either too much for skin or miscalculation by human for heart), and what I read on the net about the increased dosage amount required to treat skin issues.
> 
> I read on one internet website that .7 CC is "lethal dose". However, based on what RTF'rs have used to treat skin without overdose, who knows??
> 
> Those who've posted here about using higher Ivomec dosage for skin issues have consulted their vets--and have taken their vets' advice. That's what I do too and am trying the ProMeris flea/tick on my dog with skin issues. Considering how bad my dog's skin condition is, I would have been willing to try Ivomec and may still push my vet to try Ivomec if the ProMeris is too stinky or doesn't work.


I had a Chessy with demodex and the University of Mo vet school put her on 1 cc per day for 30 days followed by a skin scrape and continue for 30 more days .....after 50 days of 1 cc per day she seemed to have a upset stomach and we stopped the treatment..This was straight out of the bottle 1%, not cut in any way.. ...She weighed aprox 65 lbs and never had a problem after that....I no longer worry about giving my labs 1 cc twice a month...I give it oral on food now... Steve S


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## Labs Will-Do (Jan 31, 2007)

www.nustock.com Any one used this product ; results? Have used on a dog in my kennel over last two weeks that had considerable hair loss and hair/skin looks much better whether from this product use or not is the question, but certainly improving after use.


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## awclark (Oct 20, 2007)

Promeris monthly flea treatment has recently been approved for treatment of demodetic mange. I have a young shorthair with a so far mild case and he has had 2 treatments...so far so good. The one red itchy patch he had has all but disappeared.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

I don't know the mechanism that you think this works by, but the cattle injectable ivermectin can not be absorbed into or through the skin. If it can I've yet to see any papers on it. If there is evidence that it can, can you point me in that direction?


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> I don't know the mechanism that you think this works by, but the cattle injectable ivermectin can not be absorbed into or through the skin. If it can I've yet to see any papers on it. If there is evidence that it can, can you point me in that direction?


For using it on elbow calluses, it doesn't need to be absorbed through the skin; you're using it topically to kill any mites that are on the skin surface. My initial concern was how much the dogs ingested by licking at it right after you put it on, but it tastes so nasty mine never tried it more than once.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> For using it on elbow calluses, it doesn't need to be absorbed through the skin; you're using it topically to kill any mites that are on the skin surface. My initial concern was how much the dogs ingested by licking at it right after you put it on, but it tastes so nasty mine never tried it more than once.


Its also used topically to kill ear mites on cats. I believe it is poisonous to cats if they ingest.

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> I don't know the mechanism that you think this works by, but the cattle injectable ivermectin can not be absorbed into or through the skin. If it can I've yet to see any papers on it. If there is evidence that it can, can you point me in that direction?


 For worming its given orally. For mites see Julie's post.

WRL


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

How many times, or how often do you have to apply it?


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Julie R. said:


> For using it on elbow calluses, it doesn't need to be absorbed through the skin; you're using it topically to kill any mites that are on the skin surface.


Well, the veterinary pharmacologists I asked said that Ivermectin applied topically won't kill mites in the skin. Has to be given orally. I think I'll stick with that.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

I guess nobody is going to answer my question???


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## Bullet (Dec 5, 2007)

Steve Hester said:


> How many times, or how often do you have to apply it?


I have been following along to find out the answer too


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Steve Hester said:


> I guess nobody is going to answer my question???


Your persistance has paid off. I was the one requesting this product info because I'd forgotten what I had been using. That of course comes as no surprise to any that know me, since a can disremember what I had for breakfast...or if I had one.

When I was first informed of this about 8 years ago, I had BLM with real ugly elbows. Got a tube of the horse paste, AND APPLIED IT DAILY TO THE DOGS ELBOWS.

Didn't use much, just enough to rub into the callused area. As reported by others, the dog didn't bother licking it, so the apparent side effects (that were unknown to me) never showed up. Like Otey, I just smeared in on and rubbed it in with my fingers. Now that Ed has offered his advice, I'd certainly wear latex gloves while doing this, as a precaution.

While it sounds like I smeared a lot on that dog, 3/4 of that tube was thrown out after sitting in the fridge for over a year. As I recall, if you can trust that, it took not much longer than a few weeks to see a huge improvement, with hair growing back on the elbows.

The dog is now 14, and the calluses have returned since he's on concrete too frequently, so the hair gets rubbed off, and I suspect the mites take over. Since my 6 year old has some beginning, and even the pup has a small spot on one elbow, I thought I'd again get some of that horse paste and rub it in.

As to the poster that has a vet that objects to this form of usage, is she understanding what it's primarily being used for? It's not a de-wormer, or heartworm supplement...it's an external mite-killer.

Good luck to all.

UB


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Thanks Uncle Bill!!!


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

Our son showed us the other day, when he was squeezing around on his dogs elbow callous, how it looked liked he was squeezing out a big blackhead...at that site, several of them, as a matter of fact...so you are saying those might be mites?


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Uncle Bill said:


> As to the poster that has a vet that objects to this form of usage, is she understanding what it's primarily being used for? It's not a de-wormer, or heartworm supplement...it's an external mite-killer.
> 
> UB


That's just it, it can't kill mites that way....


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> That's just it, it can't kill mites that way....


If it can't kill mites that way, then why do they prescribe it topically for ear mites in cats?

WRL


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

WRL said:


> then why do they prescribe it topically for ear mites in cats?
> 
> WRL


Not the same mite. Feline ear mites don't equal canine demodex mites.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> Not the same mite. Feline ear mites don't equal canine demodex mites.


We don't know for sure that the callouses are caused by demodex mites; I doubt anyone really knows? The person who told me about it 25 years ago was a huntsman that looked after 50 couple of foxhounds. He didn't know why it worked either but theorized that it killed opportunistic mites that would get in the microscopic fissures on rough elbows. I've been using it ever since then and it's a cheap and easy fix. I've also used it on stubborn sores my horses occasionally get along their manes & tails in summer, and it works like a charm on those, too.

Remember that many vets aren't willing to prescribe or even recommend "off label" uses of drugs that aren't FDA approved. I can hardly blame them for that, given all the litigation-happy morons that have to "blame" or sue someone for every little thing that doesn't turn out perfectly in their or their pets' lives. But IMO this is a nifty little fix, and it's worked for me and every single other person I've suggested it to, so I'll continue to use it regardless of how or why it works.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

Has anyone ever taken scrapings of the callouses to see if there were Demodex mites before treating with Ivermectin? I would love to clear my dogs elbows up if this really works.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> That's just it, it can't kill mites that way....


What suspension did you ask your veterinary friends about? There are lots of suspensions that chemicals/medinces are put in that help it penetrate.

Maybe straight Ivermectin can't without the help of the suspension agent.

WRL


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

The original post is pretty old. More recently, my vet advises that the bare elbows are caused from ingrown hair, an infection and mites. For the ingrown hair/infection I am using a human ointment called Mupirocin Ointment 2% (human prescription generic for Bactroban ointment) and for the mites I use ProMeris flea/tick (purchased from maak4pets.com). I am using Mupirocin because it is much cheaper than the veterinary equivalent which my vet says is $100 a tube.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

torg said:


> Has anyone ever taken scrapings of the callouses to see if there were Demodex mites before treating with Ivermectin? I would love to clear my dogs elbows up if this really works.


I'll admit I've never had scrapings taken, because it's cheaper to just get a $9 tube of Zimectrin paste wormer and dab a tiny bit on daily for a week or two. It's always cleared up the nasty places; in fact usually you can see hair growing back within a week. No doubt there are probably more modern methods like what HiRollerlabs mentioned but I bet they cost more, too. I'll sure spend money on the dogs if they need it, but if I can save money on non-emergencies, that helps leave something in reserve for the all-too-frequent things that absolutely require a vet.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Julie, $9 is pricey these days. I buy mine for $2.99 and a tube lasts forever (or until the expiration date!) The ivermectin paste does work very well on elbow callouses and as the old commercial said " a little dab'll do ya".


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Julie, $9 is pricey these days. I buy mine for $2.99 and a tube lasts forever (or until the expiration date!) The ivermectin paste does work very well on elbow callouses and as the old commercial said " a little dab'll do ya".


I just bought a small tube at Runnings Farm store...enough to treat a 1250 lb horse for de-worming. I will no doubt have much of it left when my dog's elbows have hair grown out again. Like Sharon sez,
a small 'dab' rubbed in does the trick.

Runnings had a variety of brands in a variety of sizes. I bought the generic Ivermectin Paste 1.87%. Cost $3.47 w/tax. I'll report to all as to the time factor for healing the calluses.

As to those who object, my advice is don't use it this way. Not sure why you folks are so persistant in trying to sell us your vets views about this product, when the proof is in the pudding. This product is being used for this purpose by many on RTF, with several years of success and no side effects. Furthermore, nobody is forcing anyone to use it in this manner. 

UB


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Uncle Bill said:


> I just bought a small tube at Runnings Farm store...enough to treat a 1250 lb horse for de-worming. I will no doubt have much of it left when my dog's elbows have hair grown out again. Like Sharon sez,
> a small 'dab' rubbed in does the trick.
> 
> Runnings had a variety of brands in a variety of sizes. I bought the generic Ivermectin Paste 1.87%. Cost $3.47 w/tax. I'll report to all as to the time factor for healing the calluses.
> ...


Exactly UB.

ALSO, I have had a couple "city vets" tell me that Ivermectin doesn't work on "roundworms" that it is only for heartworms. I tried telling them the dosage is not the same as what is used for heartworms but it doesn't sink through.

Its up to each individual to chose to use or not use products which are not necessarily "marketed" for a particular use.

I've had great success with Tylosin, Bocox and several other products......

Oh yeah, and don't forget all the uses for kelp..... 

WRL


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Julie R. said:


> I'll admit I've never had scrapings taken, because it's cheaper to just get a $9 tube of Zimectrin paste wormer and dab a tiny bit on daily for a week or two. It's always cleared up the nasty places; in fact usually you can see hair growing back within a week. No doubt there are probably more modern methods like what HiRollerlabs mentioned but I bet they cost more, too. I'll sure spend money on the dogs if they need it, but if I can save money on non-emergencies, that helps leave something in reserve for the all-too-frequent things that absolutely require a vet.


Tube of generic Bactroban is about $10 and will last for a long time. It's a good ointment to have along for other scrapes/cuts as well. ProMeris is about $10 a month, similar to Frontline and keeps the mites away. As far as I know ProMeris is the only flea/tick that kills mites too (yes, it smells like Eucalyptus for a day and it's a little stinky but tolerable IMO). Since I use flea/tick year round, it isn't any more expensive for me.

I think the biggest thing is being diligent in whatever you do. If you use horse wormer paste or Bactroban every day until the hair grows back, you'll know you are doing the right thing. Some of our dogs get sore elbows from the way they lie down, so not just missing hair. The Bactroban does a nice job of clearing up the sores too.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

How effective is the Promeris against ticks? We've never had fleas (knock on wood, not since the topicals came out) but, we have a horrible tick problem and rampant Lyme disease so I use Frontline Plus year-round.

And Sharon P. et al, thanks for the tips; I should really order the ivermectin paste online and/or price shop other than just getting it at the co-op, but I basically buy it when I need it and not specifically for the dogs, since I just used the leftovers from worming the horses which is plenty. I bought some cheapie off brand once, it was some brown, nasty sticky apple-flavored gel, not the white paste and while the horses hated it as much as the paste, the dogs licked it off their elbows more. So went back to a name brand I knew was white paste and not that gooey sticky apple flavored gel.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

here is a few brands on 1 page, click - http://www.nextag.com/ivermectin-paste/products-html


.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Julie R. said:


> How effective is the Promeris against ticks? We've never had fleas (knock on wood, not since the topicals came out) but, we have a horrible tick problem and rampant Lyme disease so I use Frontline Plus year-round.


ProMeris seems to be very effective against ticks. We also treat year-round because of Lyme, Erlichia, etc. We've never had fleas either as far as I know, but I did have a female that tested positive for fleas when I had her allergy tested so who knows?







I switched that female to ProMeris because of her skin issues. I believe all dogs have demodectic mites, but in dogs with skin issues those mites can overwhelm the dog. The ProMeris really helped her.

Some don't like the smell of ProMeris. It does smell, but seems effective so I can stand the smell for a day a month.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Uncle Bill said:


> I just bought a small tube at Runnings Farm store...enough to treat a 1250 lb horse for de-worming. I will no doubt have much of it left when my dog's elbows have hair grown out again. Like Sharon sez,
> a small 'dab' rubbed in does the trick.
> 
> Runnings had a variety of brands in a variety of sizes. I bought the generic Ivermectin Paste 1.87%. Cost $3.47 w/tax. I'll report to all as to the time factor for healing the calluses.
> ...


Don't get it mixed in with your toothpaste.


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

A friend of mine lost a 2 year old lab over the weekend due to toxic reaction from using Ivomec to treat demodex coupled with using his regular heartworm preventative. 
The med was vet prescribed ,but not sure if the owner followed instructions correctly, end result was a dead dog. Sad for the owner and his wife


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Uncle Bill said:


> ... I bought the generic Ivermectin Paste 1.87%. Cost $3.47 w/tax. *I'll report to all as to the time factor for healing the calluses.*
> 
> 
> UB


.........:?:


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