# Derby thread



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

That didn't take long to get shut down. LOL I was just typing you are going down a slippery slope on RTF.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

I was thinking the same.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I missed it.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Charles C. said:


> I missed it.


Cliff notes for you Ron Burgundy
Somebody came out and said there was a derby where Bill Hillman and Shadow stepped on every Mark in clearly were were head and shoulders above every dog, but Shadow creeped a bit in a few of the series
They went over to another series and announced to all that shadow had clearly won

Lo and behold Shadow was not given the blue he was given the red ribbon.


BTW. The apparently know-nothing about the rules judges were none other than Jackie Mertens and Ernie Hawkins


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

always possible the original poster deleted the thread.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Cliff notes for you Ron Burgundy
> Somebody came out and said there was a derby where Bill Hillman and Shadow stepped on every Mark in clearly were were head and shoulders above every dog, but Shadow creeped a bit in a few of the series
> They went over to another series and announced to all that shadow had clearly won
> 
> ...


*Just like the other Derby when the "winner" was taken down* by know-nothing stewards for not having put a paw, er, hoof wrong...

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

VAR ,In the premiership has all the 'refs' making no decisions MG.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Who posted the thread? By name or handle? And you can’t Win a Derby with a handle. HPW


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## Chipper31 (Mar 8, 2009)

There was no mention of a handle. The poster said Shadow creeped on a few of the marks.


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

tigerfan said:


> Cliff notes for you Ron Burgundy
> Somebody came out and said there was a derby where Bill Hillman and Shadow stepped on every Mark in clearly were were head and shoulders above every dog, but Shadow creeped a bit in a few of the series
> They went over to another series and announced to all that shadow had clearly won
> 
> ...


What does the rule book say???


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

The thread was not "shut down" by ADMIN nor Moderators. The original poster deleted the thread.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

He's been creeping for months and getting away with it. It will be interesting to see how he ends up doing in AA stakes. Creeping isn't something you let a dog get away with because you are chasing points. IMO.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Ktyler2577 said:


> He's been creeping for months and getting away with it. It will be interesting to see how he ends up doing in AA stakes. Creeping isn't something you let a dog get away with because you are chasing points. IMO.


I'm betting he will be sold by that point and the creeping issue will be someone else's problem.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Malcolm said:


> What does the rule book say???


minor fault. Repeated minor faults can be considered moderate fault or even serious fault.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Ktyler2577 said:


> Creeping isn't something you let a dog get away with because you are chasing points. IMO.


I guess it depends? LOL


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

tigerfan said:


> BTW. The apparently know-nothing about the rules judges were none other than Jackie Mertens and Ernie Hawkins


The club should have known better than to trust a couple Golden people.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

bamajeff said:


> I'm betting he will be sold by that point and the creeping issue will be someone else's problem.


Could be - Bill's focus of training is young dogs ... however, he does have the blog going about taking Shadow from puppy to FC ---- so maybe he is going to keep him and try to work out the creeping issue (have fun with that? LOL)

I think it would be very difficult to maintain a standard of 'sit' with a young dog when running so many events. At least based on my own experiences. hahaha!

Ran Smarty in a double header senior test last summer and boy howdy did she develop a creep on the second day. Her breeder was one of the judges and said to me, you better get that under control or you're gonna have a 'Mully' on your hands. We worked pretty diligently the next few weeks and kept the standard high and she didn't repeat the infraction in the remaining events of the summer. Thankfully. Not to say it couldn't happen again, because it could. LOL


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Tobias said:


> Ran Smarty in a double header senior test last summer and boy howdy did she develop a creep on the second day. Her breeder was one of the judges and said to me, you better get that under control or you're gonna have a 'Mully' on your hands. /QUOTE]
> So she thinks Smarty is on the way to NAFC FC AFC? Put me down for a pup.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Wondering who the Blue went to?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Lpgar said:


> Wondering who the Blue went to?


https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=10762


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I’m guessing there have been numerous FCs that were creepers. Even National winners?


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

captainjack said:


> I’m guessing there have been numerous FCs that were creepers. Even National winners?



I watched a 10 year old FC-AFC (National Finalist) creep and spin on every mark this weekend at our club's fun trial and annual meeting. Pinned all three. It made for a very entertaining time.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Tobias said:
> 
> 
> > Ran Smarty in a double header senior test last summer and boy howdy did she develop a creep on the second day. Her breeder was one of the judges and said to me, you better get that under control or you're gonna have a 'Mully' on your hands. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Missouricootkillr (Jan 4, 2020)

I had the pleasure of training with Mr. Hillman a couple of days early in Shadow's derby career. He told me himself that things came so easy with the dog that he didn't do a thorough enough job on traffic cop with him. Couple that with all the events and easy to see how the dog would be out of balance.

If you go Mr. Hillman's blog he states Shadow is out of balance and talks of a future post on how to deal with the issue.

Mark Ottis


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Tobias said:
> 
> 
> > Ran Smarty in a double header senior test last summer and boy howdy did she develop a creep on the second day. Her breeder was one of the judges and said to me, you better get that under control or you're gonna have a 'Mully' on your hands. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Tobias said:


> drunkenpoacher said:
> 
> 
> > ??? This makes zero sense to me
> ...


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

I posted the thread and deleted it. i know what the rule book says and i know a creep that persists turns into a moderate fault and should be marked down. The point of the post was to get yalls opinion. Do you agree that a significant creep should take you out of contention for first.

Im not sure where a handle came into the conversation. There was no handle. Some of yall got all sensitive and wanted to attack me since i wasn't in the judges chair lol. Im not saying the judges got it wrong. Im just saying Shadows marks stood alone as the best marks in every single series. Just starting a conversation. 

maybe you agree maybe you dont


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Well King,
I have a question. What is the marked retrieve? Is it simply finding the bird without a hunt? Or is it a combination of tasks? If it is a combination of tasks then is the beginning more or less important than the middle or the end? If the dog had put the bird on the ground six or seven feet in front of the mat then picked it back up And healed after finding the duck without a hunt at all. Would that dog still have won?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Tobias said:
> 
> 
> > Just hoping your dog is as good as Mully some day.
> ...


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> I posted the thread and deleted it. i know what the rule book says and i know a creep that persists turns into a moderate fault and should be marked down. The point of the post was to get yalls opinion. Do you agree that a significant creep should take you out of contention for first.
> 
> Im not sure where a handle came into the conversation. There was no handle. Some of yall got all sensitive and wanted to attack me since i wasn't in the judges chair lol. Im not saying the judges got it wrong. Im just saying Shadows marks stood alone as the best marks in every single series. Just starting a conversation.
> 
> maybe you agree maybe you dont


I think the judges know best how each dog ran the marks. As Ken said - we don't know what 'step on the marks' really means from one person to another. If both dogs literally front footed (and lined) all the marks --- well yeah... the creeping might be an issue... BUT if one dog was downwind 3 feet and the other one was on the bird as it ran by upwind.... Or if one dog cheated water/cover and the other did not.... but both front footed the marks... then the straight line wins.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> I think the judges know best how each dog ran the marks. As Ken said - we don't know what 'step on the marks' really means from one person to another. If both dogs literally front footed (and lined) all the marks --- well yeah... the creeping might be an issue... BUT if one dog was downwind 3 feet and the other one was on the bird as it ran by upwind.... Or if one dog cheated water/cover and the other did not.... but both front footed the marks... then the straight line wins.


Really?
What part of the rulebook do you base that declaration, I highlighted in red, upon


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Malcolm said:


> What does the rule book say???


The rule book says creeping is a minor fault....that can be elevated to a moderate fault or even escalated to a major fault based on its severity or frequency.

More germane to this conversation is that the rule book also says that there are only two opinions that matter in regards to placements awarded {or not awarded} and those two people are the Judges of the relative work of all the dogs in that particular stake


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

tigerfan said:


> The rule book says creeping is a minor fault....that can be elevated to a moderate fault or even escalated to a major fault based on its severity or frequency.
> 
> *More germane to this conversation is that the rule book also says that there are only two opinions that matter in regards to placements awarded {or not awarded} and those two people are the Judges* of the relative work of all the dogs in that particular stake



LOL you feel some type of way about this dont you.... yikes. Its called a conversation. nobody is petitioning for placements to be changed or anything like that. 
With your reasoning there should NEVER be any discussion about how things are judged or why decisions are made. Which is what this was supposed to be...a discussion.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Missouricootkillr said:


> the dog that *he didn't do a thorough enough job on traffic cop with him*. Couple that with all the events and easy to see how the dog would be out of balance.


This just makes me laugh for some reason. Not sure why. I don't think a few extra sessions of traffic cop would have overcome what the dog has learned he can get away with from running so many derbies. Not terribly uncommon with derby dogs from what I understand? And I don't care that he creeps (not my dog). But the dog has realized he can get away with creeping at a trial. And he keeps running trials. If we really take a step back and look...isn't that more of the issue and not a lack of traffic cop? I am a proponent of the Hillman puppy tapes and I even really like "traffic cop" but let's be real...


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

a sensible response would have read something like " yes, to me the constant creeping would have been grounds enough to warrant a moderate fault and could have dropped the dogs placement per the rule book ...even though the marks were way way better"

Instead you chose to go with " YOU WEREN'T THE JUDGE / THE JUDGES KNOW MORE THAN YOU !! / YOUR OPINION DOESN'T MATTER !!!"

that BP might be slightly elevated....


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

tigerfan said:


> Really?
> What part of the rulebook do you base that declaration, I highlighted in red, upon


Doesn't say straight line but under Moderate Faults it does state the following:
2. Disturbing too much cover either by not going to the area or by leaving it.
3. Reluctance to enter rough cover, water, ice, mud or other situations involving unpleasant “going’’ for the dog
10. Going out of the way by land to a “fall,’’ to an excessive degree to avoid going into the water on a water retrieve.

Minor Faults:
1. Going out of its way by land, to an excessive degree, on the return from a water retrieve.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Sure does Talk a lot . 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUIuqM4g8PQ


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

polmaise said:


> Sure does Talk a lot .
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUIuqM4g8PQ


???????????????


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

polmaise said:


> Sure does Talk a lot .
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUIuqM4g8PQ


Most salesmen do.


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

teachers as well


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> LOL you feel some type of way about this dont you.... yikes. Its called a conversation. nobody is petitioning for placements to be changed or anything like that.
> With your reasoning there should NEVER be any discussion about how things are judged or why decisions are made. Which is what this was supposed to be...a discussion.



I think what you’re seeing is a response that openly criticizing field trial placements is generally frowned on and unless you were actually holding the judge’s sheets and watching every dog it is virtually impossible to, with any true veracity, criticize the results. It’s considered poor form and seeing who was judging, albeit somewhat golden, really offensive.


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

Ken Barton said:


> I think what you’re seeing is a response that openly criticizing field trial placements is generally frowned on and unless you were actually holding the judge’s sheets and watching every dog it is virtually impossible to, with any true veracity, criticize the results. It’s considered poor form and seeing who was judging, albeit somewhat golden, really offensive.



I hear you, and i get why some would get defensive. But i think i did a decent job avoiding calling the judges wrong. Rather i asked everyone's opinion on a certain fault " creeping and if in your opinion it should warrant a drop in placement. 

But i appreciate you clearing it up, i wasn't sure where the hostility was coming from. Im new to trials and the only aspect that was blatantly clear to me was that the marks were better. I was just gathering opinions on what is important to you guys in a derby.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Obviously trials are 1st thru 4th placement (and Rjam and jam if we are looking at that as well)

Creeping is a fault... so are lots of other behaviors. If two dogs are 'equal' when it comes to their marking ability, then it makes sense judges will look at all of the other things that fall under judgement when determining which dog comes out on top.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> I posted the thread and deleted it. i know what the rule book says and i know a creep that persists turns into a moderate fault and should be marked down. The point of the post was to get yalls opinion. Do you agree that a significant creep should take you out of contention for first. Your question can't be answered without actually seeing all the work and judging the totality of each dogs work relative to the field. It is not suitable for an internet discussion IMHO. You cant pose a hypothetical based on your observations of an actual event. In this case The only relevant opinion is that of Ms Mertens & Mr Hawkins
> 
> Im not sure where a handle came into the conversation. There was no handle. I believe the "handle" comment was Harry asking who started the thread & trying to make a humorous play on words. It was cleared up in the next post that there was no handling. You just answered his question as to who started and deleted the thread. Some of yall got all sensitive and wanted to attack me since i wasn't in the judges chair lol. I believe I was the only person who replied to your thread before you deleted it. I did not get sensitive or attack you, I merely pointed out that you weren't sitting in the chair.... "lol"?? Im not saying the judges got it wrong. You stated that you went over to another stake and announced that Shadow clearly won going away. That seems to me that you are saying they got it wrong!! Im just saying Shadows marks stood alone as the best marks in every single series. That is merely your opinion. Like I said you weren't sitting in the chair;...where the view is the optimal one to really see everything!!. It is possible that Jackie & Ernie may disagree with your opiniion. They may even have agreed with your opinion, and still justifiably awarded the blue to a dog other than Shadow. You are entitled to that opinion, but it don't mean squat in this case.  Just starting a conversation.
> 
> maybe you agree maybe you dont


 My comments in red
Curious why why deleted your thread if you really wanted to have a conversation?
So lets have the conversation you wanted to have.

Lets use your scenario and assume that I am sitting in the chair and believe your version{I doubt it} that Shadows marks were in your words.........

........" Shadows marks stood alone as the best marks in every single series" 

Now lets also assume that Shadow also crept on some of the series.

If that were the case, and I were sitting in the chair beside Jackie. If that truly were the case then I probably would still be arguing with Jackie in favor of giving Shadow the Blue ribbon, or running another series to agree on a winner.

Not saying I am right, but the rule book allows some natural room for Judges to bring their beliefs on what they value most in evaluating dogs worth relative to others.
I don't fixate on line manners as much as some do. I have my limits, but outside of major or eliminating faults & outlandish behavior. I make a note of it, but I lean more to the theory that creeping, bouncing around, head swinging and such loose line manners tends to handicap the dogs ability to see, truly mark and perform at their best once sent for the marks. 

I've had the privilege of seeing Shadow run quite a bit down the stretch as he dueled Rain for the 2019 high point Derby dog. I saw them duel at least half a half dozen weekend trials and was the Derby Stake Captain at two of them. I was also a Committee member at the National Derby Championship and present and working for all 10 series 

Let me give you an example of what I mean by somewhat tolerant of minor line issues in lieu of penalizing the consequences of sloppy line manners negatively impacting the work in the field, My example happens to involve Shadow.
I had a number of talks with Bill {and Mary} about Shadows creeping. They related that they knew that running him so much was not ideal, but that it was what it was in light of the close fight for 2019 High Point Derby dog.
In spite of what Tobias or Bryan think, He definitely has made the task more difficult, but I hope and believe they will be able to manage it so that he will have success going forward

In the weekend trials Shadow was loose at the line, but for the most part marked very well in spite of it. The judging, IMHO agreed with me on that. At one of the trials I was the Captain of the Stake the Judges told me after setting up the 4th series to have grounds available and be ready to run a 5th or maybe even a 6th series because it was so tight among a number of dogs including Shadow and Rain. I'm fairly certain that line manners made the difference...OUT IN THE FIELD!!

At the National, as typically happens the field slowly gets separation. Shadow was steady for the early series, but the looseness slowly re appeared

As we got into the later series I had ID'd 4 dogs that I felt had separated themselves. The one I felt was in best shape returned to an old fall in the 8th {retired gun} series.
Going into the 10th IMHO I had 3 dogs I felt were close. Shadow was one of those 3.
The 10th was a water double. The mat for the 10th was set on a terrace about 75 to 100 yds from the water with a couple more terraces between the mat and water.
The control memory bird was roughly 300 yds away with the true line hitting 3 pieces of water. The go bird flyer was about 150 with one piece of water to hit. Some may have viewed the go bird flyer as a contrary mark for a Derby dog, because it did not require the dog to stay in the water past the gunners to get the bird
There was a peninsula on the far shore that if the flyer was rode out a long ways would have almost brought the dog to the bird rewarded the dog for "getting out early." 

Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill. As a result he did not see the flyer. You could see as he left the line that he was in trouble. Being well schooled in water honesty he took the long swim past the gunners and hunted where he thought he should go. He put on a LONG LONG hunt on the wrong side of the guns and effectively ended any chance of winning.
In effect, The judges didn't have to eliminate him for the line manners, as he eliminated himself BECAUSE of his line manners.

BTW; Tobias, the dog that ended up winning the National did avoid water and did NOT run a straight line


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

"Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill."

What you have described is actually a controlled break, not a creep. It is a moderate fault. -Paul


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

"Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill. As a result he did not see the flyer. You could see as he left the line that he was in trouble. *Being well schooled in water honesty he took the long swim past the gunners and hunted where he thought he should go. He put on a LONG LONG hunt on the wrong side of the guns and effectively ended any chance of winning.*
In effect, The judges didn't have to eliminate him for the line manners, as he eliminated himself BECAUSE of his line manners.

BTW; Tobias, *the dog that ended up winning the National did avoid water and did NOT run a straight line*" ...
Here was me thinking that a Derby dog winner was all about Marking ability ? .. Got it wrong again .


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Just FYI to help with future posts on proper RTF etiquette;



KingOfTheGlades said:


> I posted the thread <bad move and deleted it <even worse. i know what the rule book says <the granddaddy of all provocative statements and i know <words that are offensive in any context a creep that persists turns into a moderate fault and should <a risky word be marked down. The point of the post was to get yalls opinion. Do you agree that a significant creep should take you out of contention for first.<you forgot the question mark and even worse, you asked a question
> 
> Just starting a conversation.<good luck with that


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

paul young said:


> "Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill."
> 
> What you have described is actually a controlled break, not a creep. It is a moderate fault. -Paul


Yes, it clearly was was a controlled break Paul. I am somewhat hearing impaired {aren't we all  } and was a good 20 yds from the line and I could hear him clearly 
Bill left the line after Shadows run and came up to me and asked if I thought his telling Shadow to "heel" was a mistake.
I told him that from my vantage point that He was correct in thinking that this was way more than a creep by Shadow and it was absolutely necessary because I didn't see any Stopping in Shadow's demeanor. He was gaining speed and appeared hell bent for leather to me. and one more step would have only increased his momentum as he would be on the downhill side of the terrace. The controlled break saved a disqualifying break. In spite of it and the gorilla hunt on the wrong side of the gun, Shadow was still a finalist, earning the 5 pts that go along with that accomplishment
We laughed and he thanked me for reaffirming his decision, and muttered a few expletives at Shadow


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

polmaise said:


> "Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill. As a result he did not see the flyer. You could see as he left the line that he was in trouble. *Being well schooled in water honesty he took the long swim past the gunners and hunted where he thought he should go. He put on a LONG LONG hunt on the wrong side of the guns and effectively ended any chance of winning.*
> In effect, The judges didn't have to eliminate him for the line manners, as he eliminated himself BECAUSE of his line manners.
> 
> BTW; Tobias, *the dog that ended up winning the National did avoid water and did NOT run a straight line*" ...
> Here was me thinking that a Derby dog winner was all about Marking ability ? .. Got it wrong again .


Nope you got it mostly correct.
The winning dog didn't run a straight line, and cheated some water, but he clearly exactly marked the location of the bird and stepped on the mark


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Running the number of trials in as short a period of time to be in the hunt for High Point Derby dog will take its toll on most any dog. They are very gifted markers, but it comes at a price for most. Correcting poor line manners that were learned over an extended period of time is very tough on the dog, as what was acceptable (actually desirable behavior from the dog's perspective) suddenly is not. Not necessarily physically tough, but definitely mentally tough.

It's difficult to keep a top Derby competitor balanced. Don't be too critical of the dogs or the trainers. I hope Shadow has a long, successful All-Age career. -Paul


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## Ernie Hawkins (Nov 3, 2009)

Tiger fan you are talking about something you didn’t see and know nothing about. Shadow was not the clear winner and the winner clearly won. Shadow crept out on all four series. He crept out on the memory bird at least 10 feet then crept another at least 5 feet on the go bird and had to be repealed in all four series. All of the series are a lot more than a few and 10 to 15 feet is a lot more than a bit.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

I bought the Hillman videos to get my young Croc pup started. He's with Baker now and will be running derbies soon. I can guarantee if mine creeps the least bit he will be leashed and sent to the truck. My issue is practice what you preach and sale training videos. The most key issue Bill preaches is SIT! "The dog doesn't get what he wants unless he does what I ask him to do". He's not my dog so I don't care what the dog does. Just don't make training videos and have training seminars preaching one thing and you allow your personal dog to do the opposite. Park his arse on that mat and don't move like those videos show. Maybe he gets as many points at Ammo did.


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## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

The word of the one man whose opinion actually mattered...
The only other person that mattered is a woman and they agreed.




Ernie Hawkins said:


> Tiger fan you are talking about something you didn’t see and know nothing about. Shadow was not the clear winner and the winner clearly won. Shadow crept out on all four series. He crept out on the memory bird at least 10 feet then crept another at least 5 feet on the go bird and had to be repealed in all four series. All of the series are a lot more than a few and 10 to 15 feet is a lot more than a bit.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Ktyler2577 said:


> I bought the Hillman videos to get my young Croc pup started. He's with Baker now and will be running derbies soon. I can guarantee if mine creeps the least bit he will be leashed and sent to the truck. My issue is practice what you preach and sale training videos. The most key issue Bill preaches is SIT! "The dog doesn't get what he wants unless he does what I ask him to do". He's not my dog so I don't care what the dog does. Just don't make training videos and have training seminars preaching one thing and you allow your personal dog to do the opposite. Park his arse on that mat and don't move like those videos show. Maybe he gets as many points at Ammo did.


This also applies to my post about salesmen.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

Precisely.


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## Saxxx011 (Nov 15, 2012)

Daren Galloway said:


> Ktyler2577 said:
> 
> 
> > I bought the Hillman videos to get my young Croc pup started. He's with Baker now and will be running derbies soon. I can guarantee if mine creeps the least bit he will be leashed and sent to the truck. My issue is practice what you preach and sale training videos. The most key issue Bill preaches is SIT! "The dog doesn't get what he wants unless he does what I ask him to do". He's not my dog so I don't care what the dog does. Just don't make training videos and have training seminars preaching one thing and you allow your personal dog to do the opposite. Park his arse on that mat and don't move like those videos show. Maybe he gets as many points at Ammo did.
> ...


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Ktyler2577 said:


> I bought the Hillman videos to get my young Croc pup started. He's with Baker now and will be running derbies soon. I can guarantee if mine creeps the least bit he will be leashed and sent to the truck. My issue is practice what you preach and sale training videos. The most key issue Bill preaches is SIT! "The dog doesn't get what he wants unless he does what I ask him to do". He's not my dog so I don't care what the dog does. Just don't make training videos and have training seminars preaching one thing and you allow your personal dog to do the opposite. Park his arse on that mat and don't move like those videos show. Maybe he gets as many points at Ammo did.


Training and trialing are two different animals.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Saxxx011 said:


> Daren Galloway said:
> 
> 
> > This also applies to my post about salesmen.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Ernie Hawkins said:


> Tiger fan you are talking about something you didn’t see and know nothing about. Shadow was not the clear winner and the winner clearly won. Shadow crept out on all four series. He crept out on the memory bird at least 10 feet then crept another at least 5 feet on the go bird and had to be repealed in all four series. All of the series are a lot more than a few and 10 to 15 feet is a lot more than a bit.


Now I wonder just how bad the work of the 3rd and 4th placed dogs must have been for this to place above them.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Lpgar said:


> Now I wonder just how bad the work of the 3rd and 4th placed dogs must have been for this to place above them.


Kind of curious about that myself. Maybe someone that wasn’t there will tell us all about it.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Daren Galloway said:


> Saxxx011 said:
> 
> 
> > and will still be a hypocritical salesman hahaha
> ...


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

polmaise said:


> "Shadow was prancing as he came to the line. When the first bird went down he crept out, and quickly turned towards the flyer as the flyer was thrown he was creeping at an accelerating pace. Bill said "heel" and he turned to come back to Bill. As a result he did not see the flyer. You could see as he left the line that he was in trouble. *Being well schooled in water honesty he took the long swim past the gunners and hunted where he thought he should go. He put on a LONG LONG hunt on the wrong side of the guns and effectively ended any chance of winning.*
> In effect, The judges didn't have to eliminate him for the line manners, as he eliminated himself BECAUSE of his line manners.
> 
> BTW; Tobias, *the dog that ended up winning the National did avoid water and did NOT run a straight line*" ...
> Here was me thinking that a Derby dog winner was all about Marking ability ? .. Got it wrong again .


Well she avoided some of the water not all of it. She ran down the shore for a ways before entering the second piece of water. The true line to the bird only had you catching a sliver of the first piece of water. She was in pretty bad shape after exiting the third piece of water unless she knew where the bird was. She came out of the water took an immediate left and went right to the bird. By far in my opinion, the best mark of the memory bird in the 10th!!


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## Missouricootkillr (Jan 4, 2020)

"







"I had the pleasure of training with Mr. Hillman a couple of days early in Shadow's derby career. He told me himself that things came so easy with the dog that he didn't do a thorough enough job on traffic cop with him. Couple that with all the events and easy to see how the dog would be out of balance.

If you go Mr. Hillman's blog he states Shadow is out of balance and talks of a future post on how to deal with the issue."​

I think Shadow had 10 derby points when Bill made this comment to me, maybe less. I think he could see the issue coming.

Mark Ottis


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Ernie Hawkins said:


> Tiger fan you are talking about something you didn’t see and know nothing about. Shadow was not the clear winner and the winner clearly won. Shadow crept out on all four series. He crept out on the memory bird at least 10 feet then crept another at least 5 feet on the go bird and had to be repealed in all four series. All of the series are a lot more than a few and 10 to 15 feet is a lot more than a bit.


I think you misread his post(s). Or did not read the whole thread.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Ernie Hawkins said:


> Tiger fan you are talking about something you didn’t see and know nothing about. Shadow was not the clear winner and the winner clearly won. Shadow crept out on all four series. He crept out on the memory bird at least 10 feet then crept another at least 5 feet on the go bird and had to be repealed in all four series. All of the series are a lot more than a few and 10 to 15 feet is a lot more than a bit.


Who was judging that trial anyway?


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> Who was judging that trial anyway?


Obviously the gallery thought they were.

Tim


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Ernie Hawkins said:


> Tiger fan you are talking about something you didn’t see and know nothing about. Shadow was not the clear winner and the winner clearly won. Shadow crept out on all four series. He crept out on the memory bird at least 10 feet then crept another at least 5 feet on the go bird and had to be repealed in all four series. All of the series are a lot more than a few and 10 to 15 feet is a lot more than a bit.


There you have it. Judges judged and determined a winner, using the rule book. Nothing else


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> Really?
> What part of the rulebook do you base that declaration, I highlighted in red, upon



Once again you fail to comprehend... and take things out of context. 

If two dogs are in contention for a placement (doesn't matter which placement). And both dogs are equal in all other things (which isn't likely), the dog with the straight(est) line to the marks beats the other dog who avoided cover/water/terrain (this is where the 'trained response' part of the rules comes in)... I also think well placed marks will prevent many (or any) dogs from running a straight line. That is the whole idea - to see how dogs can deal with factors presented to them. I would be surprised if there was ever a dog that ran 'straight' lines to every mark in a trial. Derby or All Age or Nationals. I am quite certain someone will let me know if there has been.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Some general thoughts:

1) It is hard to find people who are willing to devote their time, volunteer and judge. It becomes even harder when we dissect their decisions on the internet. Consequently, I disagree with the OP's decision to name names.

2) If you want to engage in a discussion about a concept - such as how much should line manners enter into placements - you can easily do so by posting a hypothetical and asking for comments

3) Nobody has the view of the line, handler, and dog ... for every dog ... that the judges do. There is so much that goes unnoticed by the gallery that factors into what the placements are

4) Finally, the Rule Book allows quite a bit of leeway for subjective judgment. 

It is recommended that a Judge should have clearly in mind, and for each test, precisely what type of performance he expects, since such work will merit a high rating in his records. Then he should observe, and record, in what respects and to what degrees the performances by individual dogs have either exceeded or fallen short of that previously established “par,’’ in each test. Hence, when the stake is completed, several Judges will arrive at their final decision about placings on the basis of which dog, relatively, did better work than another in each of the several series.
Rule Book, page 47 (emphasis added). 

When I first began judging, I paid a lot of attention to line manner.
Then I began adopting the philosophy that I should be solely interested in what was happening in the field
Now, I am returning to paying more attention to line manners.

Here is what the Rule Book says about the kind of dog that should place and win:

The function of a Non-Slip Retriever is to seek and retrieve “fallen’’ game when ordered to do so. He should sit quietly on line or in the blind, walk at heel, or assume any station designated by his handler until sent to retrieve. When ordered, a dog should retrieve quickly and briskly without unduly disturbing too much ground, and should deliver tenderly to hand. He should then await further orders. Accurate marking is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple, and will take direction from his handler is of great value. Rule Book, page 26, ¶2. (Emphasis added). 

Most conversations around judging, callbacks, and placements revolve around the underlined language. However, I wonder if we aren’t doing the sport a disservice by not paying more attention to the remaining language above. 

And I think it is important to consider this passage

Judging can never be precise; it is not an exact science, merely an art, and simply because there are so many shades of gray between black and white. At the risk of over-simplification, it might be stated that the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this.
Rule Book, page 47 (emphasis added). 

I don't think we pay enough service to the words "pleasing, obedient manner" when judging dogs.

Ted


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Ted’s last post was pleasing to me.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

> If two dogs are in contention for a placement (doesn't matter which placement). And both dogs are equal in all other things (which isn't likely), the dog with the straight(est) line to the marks beats the other dog who avoided cover/water/terrain (this is where the 'trained response' part of the rules comes in)...


Not as straight a line does not necessarily equate to avoiding hazards. It's not that simple. The thread is about Derby, correct?


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

MINOR FAULTS. (Either severe, or repeated, or combinations of these “minor’’ infractions may summate into a “moderate,’’ or even a “serious’’ fault. Also, they may be so slight as not to warrant any penalty at all.)
1. Going out of its way by land, to an excessive degree, on the return from a water retrieve.
2. Lack of attention.
3. Poor line-manners; “heeling’’ poorly; not immediately taking and staying in the position designated; dropping a bird at delivery; jumping after a bird; not remaining quietly on-line after delivery.
4. Slow pick-up of a dead bird (except when fluttering or badly shot-up); dropping bird; handling game in a sloppy manner.
5. Unsteadiness on-line, including creeping.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

Sit still means sit right??? Or is there a new variation of it?


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

The rule book is vague in many areas which gives the judges some leeway to judge. There are also many subjective words used to describe the dog work, and the minor, moderate, and severe faults are really on a spectrum of severity in each bucket, and that spectrum varies from judge to judge. There are also some “popular conventions” used in judging that are not mentioned in the rule book at all but have become commonplace. We all comment, second guess, and judge from the gallery or from the comfort of our living rooms, but at the end of the day the judges judge and decide the placements that day. Their judgement and placements may differ from what another set of judges would do given the same dog work. The interpretation of the rule book, experience, system of recording the dog work, training, and how the judges agree or disagree in each of those areas all affect the outcome.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Well said. Thanks for sharing.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

HarryWilliams said:


> Not as straight a line does not necessarily equate to avoiding hazards. It's not that simple.


you are correct Harry - it wasn't my intention to say otherwise.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ktyler2577 said:


> Sit still means sit right??? Or is there a new variation of it?


Yes ! when it doesn't sit but still gets the mark in a Derby ,but then I am a Joy stealer ;-).


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> Yes ! when it doesn't sit but still gets the mark in a Derby ,but then I am a Joy stealer ;-).


I suppose we should report you to the JS police?  Happy New Year Robert!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> I suppose we should report you to the JS police?  Happy New Year Robert!


Happy new year To You also . Lang may yer lum aye reek. The Polis ken me . ;-)


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> Happy new year To You also . Lang may yer lum aye reek. The Polis ken me . ;-)


thanks goodness for google...  Back at ya! --- Yes, I bet they do! hahahaha!!!!


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Ktyler2577 said:


> Sit still means sit right??? Or is there a new variation of it?


I'm not so sure the rule book requires a dog to sit. Standing steady regards, Harry


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

HarryWilliams said:


> Ktyler2577 said:
> 
> 
> > Sit still means sit right??? Or is there a new variation of it?
> ...


This section is in the rule book in three places... It only says “should” ; )

2. The function of a Non-Slip Retriever is to seek and retrieve “fallen’’ game when ordered to do so. He should sit quietly on line or in the blind, walk at heel, or assume any station designated by his handler until sent to retrieve. When ordered, a dog should retrieve quickly and briskly without unduly disturbing too much ground, and should deliver tenderly to hand. He should then await further orders.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

That would mean no creeping correct?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Ktyler2577 said:


> That would mean no creeping correct?



not really - should does not mean 'shall' - 

dictionary definition of the word 'should' that most closely fits its use in a 'rule' would be "indicating a desirable or expected state. "


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Ktyler2577 said:


> That would mean no creeping correct?


Under minor faults
5. Unsteadiness on-line, including creeping.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Ktyler2577 said:


> That would mean no creeping correct?


Creeping is a minor fault. Multiple instances of it can add up to a moderate or serious fault.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Is a rule book what sets your Standard?
Because a rulebook says something is a Minor fault,, do you allow it in training??
Do you call a creep a "Reposition" because that's what the rule book the venue you run calls it?



I was taught a standard.. a rule book was never mentioned.

When I lived in Littleton, I trained daily with a guy who owned and self trained, a wonderful dog. Marked well, ran nice blinds.

He had never run a ht or FT.. When he was younger, he threw birds for a well known Pro at the time..

He has never read a rule book.

He and his dog HUNT a LOT!!

That dog lives a charmed life.. Has hunted in places I will only read about.. Has retrieved about every specie of waterfowl there is.. Has gone on coveted hunts every season...

The dog knows the owners standard... the owner knows no rule book..

Gooser


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Reposition? I like it, the dog “repositioned” himself 20 feet forward on the first bird then repositioned another 20 feet on the 2nd bird then repositioned himself back to the handler (who is a poor repositioner) then was sent for the birds. I love it!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Judges’ Responsibilities on Line

(9) The Judges should agree in advance as to the extent of movement which shall be considered “creeping,’’ short of breaking, and whether working dogs so offending shall be ordered brought to heel before being sent to retrieve.
Page 46


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

As Bill Hillman said to someone who was running the trial after the 3rd series, "Did you see that? My dog put the bird between his paws!"
She replied "He'd better have! He was half way to the bird before it hit the ground!"

She can poke giant holes in male vanity.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

red devil said:


> As Bill Hillman said to someone who was running the trial after the 3rd series, "Did you see that? My dog put the bird between his paws!"
> She replied "He'd better have! He was half way to the bird before it hit the ground!"
> 
> She can poke giant holes in male vanity.



To me this was a gratuitous shot.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> To me this was a gratuitous shot.


To me this normal and frequent with good dawg folk .


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

red devil said:


> As Bill Hillman said to someone who was running the trial after the 3rd series, "Did you see that? My dog put the bird between his paws!"
> She replied "He'd better have! He was half way to the bird before it hit the ground!"
> 
> She can poke giant holes in male vanity.


I am now totally confused about field trial rules. The dog can run half way to the bird before it lands? Why? Is this a special test for derby? Releasing a dog early can be quite valuable in waterfowl hunting if you know you crippled a duck/goose. I noticed in one of the posts here the rules mention a dog who can retrieve cripples. 

Getting that duck out there as fast as possible on a swimming cripple is crucial. Are they testing for this in derby--retrieving cripples? If so, that is so wonderful! Finding dogs who can get after cripples fast is great for people looking for hunting dogs.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

J. Marti said:


> I am now totally confused about field trial rules. The dog can run half way to the bird before it lands? Why? Is this a special test for derby? Releasing a dog early can be quite valuable in waterfowl hunting if you know you crippled a duck/goose. I noticed in one of the posts here the rules mention a dog who can retrieve cripples.
> 
> Getting that duck out there as fast as possible on a swimming cripple is crucial. Are they testing for this in derby--retrieving cripples? If so, that is so wonderful! Finding dogs who can get after cripples fast is great for people looking for hunting dogs.


:BIG::BIG::BIG:

I am assuming this is a serious poke. If not, it should be. That right there is a great Monday morning funny.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> I am now totally confused about field trial rules. *The dog can run half way to the bird before it lands? Why? Is this a special test for derby? . *... Getting that *duck out there as fast as possible* on a swimming cripple is crucial. Are they testing for this in derby--retrieving cripples? If so, that is so wonderful! Finding dogs who can get after cripples fast is great for people looking for hunting dogs.


Let's get this clarified: in football, a wounded duck so doesn't very far very fast. So, as a field judge, I can tell you that's immaterial to this discussion. Now, as for "run(ning) halfway to the duck before it lands (as) a special test for derby," according to the field judge rulebook, the derby dog's requisite training to extend its forepaw overhead signalling for a fair catch while camping out under the fall of any fowl offsets the breaking infraction, controlled or otherwise.


MG


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

red devil said:


> As Bill Hillman said to someone who was running the trial after the 3rd series, "Did you see that? My dog put the bird between his paws!"
> She replied "He'd better have! He was half way to the bird before it hit the ground!"
> 
> She can poke giant holes in male vanity.


I agree with Ted. Poking holes in just about anything is easy; patching them up is a bit more difficult.

In 24+ years of judging, I have yet to witness a performance without some kind of fault being committed. Apparently there are a multitude of posters to this thread whose dogs are perfect, and feel the need to call everyone's attention to a performance that wasn't. I could get Biblical, but I won't, since most on here have read or heard the passage I could refer to. -Paul


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Methinks some people take themselves way too seriously...

Mike: I agree, however if the working dog signals a fair catch and the honor dog proceeds to make the catch instead, how would you judge it?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

paul young said:


> I agree with Ted. Poking holes in just about anything is easy; patching them up is a bit more difficult.
> 
> In 24+ years of judging, I have yet to witness a performance without some kind of fault being committed. Apparently there are a multitude of posters to this thread whose dogs are perfect, and feel the need to call everyone's attention to a performance that wasn't. I could get Biblical, but I won't, since most on here have read or heard the passage I could refer to. -Paul



Mostly, I found it unsettling (but perhaps indicative of the times) that:

a) A poster who is unidentified
b) Tells a story that may or may not be true
c) That is critical of a person who is identified
d) When that person is not even a part of the conversation

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

red devil said:


> Methinks some people take themselves way too seriously...



No. I just believe in common courtesy. 

And I am not defending Bill because he is my friend.

I know Bill, but not well. I disagree with some of his training principles.

I just don't think it is right to take a shot at somebody on a public forum - particularly when he isn't part of the conversation

Obviously, you disagree.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

red devil said:


> Methinks some people take themselves way too seriously...
> 
> Mike: I agree, however if the working dog signals a fair catch and the honor dog proceeds to make the catch instead, how would you judge it?


Not Mike, but I see it like a safety committing pass interference while making an interception. I would move the honor dog back 15 yards and re-shoot the flyer.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> I agree with Ted. Poking holes in just about anything is easy; patching them up is a bit more difficult.
> 
> In 24+ years of judging, I have yet to witness a performance without some kind of fault being committed. Apparently there are a multitude of posters to this thread whose dogs are perfect, and feel the need to call everyone's attention to a performance that wasn't. I could get Biblical, but I won't, since most on here have read or heard the passage I could refer to. -Paul


As far as my comments, I didn't intend to infer my dog is perfect at a test... In TRAINING my standard is high. She isn't allowed to creep. Sit means Sit. Once commanded to do so she cant move till told to do so.. She is 8 years old.. Once she was deemed "steady" she has never broke in training or a test... 

She HAS crept at tests.. That's where the what I may allow to pass,,and where the Judges book and judgment comes into play.. She is a bit loose at tests... I found it hard to not get movement between marks, when the first bird down is a walk up,,, My dog will move just a bit to see the different marks with wide swings.. I allowed it..

After the test, The person who was my tutor asked how test went. I explained I thought she was a bit loos at the line.. We both agreed to work on it in training,,and that it probably wouldn't be wise to run tests week after week just to run tests.. I spaced them.. I didn't run every test that was available to me in my region... It took us longer to achieve the title,, but big picture wise it was worth it..

MY standard is more important on a daily basis,, than what a HT book standard might be... If creep or something else is bad enough,, I am perfectly prepared to pick the dog up on my own decision..

There was never a test where a Judge made a comment about the creep..or asked me to re-heel... But,, I THOUGHT she moved more than what was allowed in training.. …. SHE CREPT!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think a Lot of folks should read that Connie Cleveland article..

Disclaimer: I am no angel...

I didn't get hooked into the AKC plate chasing game, and the national ht test.. 
I ran the tests I wanted,, when I wanted..
Once the goal I set was achieved,, People told me my MH didn't mean much.. Only a "Weekend" dog.
"Current Master Judges Pass everything"
"Shes only steady because she doing the work because she HAS to, not because she Wants to.."
"His inadequacies as a trainer holds the dog back"
And of course the "Piggy" word.. 

From the other threads, some think running trial to compete to achieve high points, and letting standards slip doing so,, is questionable.. Some claim Hypocrisy..
 and finally,,, my own unfair joy stealing comment
"I feel sorry for the dog, the owners ego is what's the most important.."
All Joy Stealers.. for sure..

Again,, I am no Angel..​
*"Its none of your business what others think".*.. and I would hope others realize,, people have different goals..

What do you see when you look in the mirror?​


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And of course... All of this is only "Human Nature" 

Why I cherish my free time alone with a dog..


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

red devil said:


> I agree, however if the working dog signals a fair catch and the honor dog proceeds to make the catch instead, how would you judge it?


Trick question! Everybody knows the only derby honour dog is at the Epsom D_*a*_rby when QE II's remaining geriatric corgis are honouring her with their presence at the big race. 



Dave Farrar said:


> Not Mike, but I see it like a safety committing pass interference while making an interception. I would move the honor dog back 15 yards and re-shoot the flyer.


So which is the ineligible retriever downfield? 



MooseGooser said:


> I think a Lot of folks should read that Connie Cleveland article..
> 
> Disclaimer: I am no angel...
> 
> ...


Gooser, my name is Michael and I am an Almond Joy stealer..for sure.. - or was until I relished the epitome of our domestic confections, yes, Enstrom Almond Toffee, Grand Junction, Colo. I believe you recently promised to export a few pounds for my "helping" you narrate an rtf topic or two for your wife. So where's the goods?!?

MG


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Silly Rabbit,
Everybody knows Goosers cannot touch sugar!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Trick question! Everybody knows the only derby honour dog is at the Epsom D_*a*_rby when QE II's remaining geriatric corgis are honouring her with their presence at the big race.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



UH ,,,, NO!!!!,,,, YOU demanded royalteis cus I re read your post in my Yoda Voice! It makes my wife almost wet her pants laughing... I dint promise squat!! Besides....A trip to Grand Junction from my house is a four day extreamly perilouse trip over narrow 15.000 ft mountain passes. Sherpas don't come cheap,,and I lost my "Yack Boots".. Your up **** creek with a teaspoon..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Silly Rabbit,
> Everybody knows Goosers cannot touch sugar!


 If someone pitches me a Snickers bar from across the room,,,, I am deadly,,, snatching it out of the air with my teeth though..

Sugar Sweet personality regards..


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Trick question! Everybody knows the only derby honour dog is at the Epsom D_*a*_rby when QE II's remaining geriatric corgis are honouring her with their presence at the big race.
> 
> 
> 
> ...










catch y


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> UH ,,,, NO!!!!,,,, YOU demanded royalteis cus I re read your post in my Yoda Voice! It makes my wife almost wet her pants laughing... I dint promise squat!! Besides....A trip to Grand Junction from my house is a four day extreamly perilouse trip over narrow 15.000 ft mountain passes. Sherpas don't come cheap,,and I lost my "Yack Boots".. *Your up **** creek with a teaspoon..*


What with your alluding to Snickers (nee Marathon) bars per that honourary Quebici Mr. Niles Bora, along with the raging Montreal Bagel War (OK, you left that one unsaid), you seem to be seeking Canadian adjudication of "Joy Stealing" by either the late John Candy or, more probably, Eugene Levy. In other words, please explain that cultural phenomenon - for our derby edification and maybe a new song pirated by the Joy Division Stealers - *"The Rise of Schitts Creek."*

MG


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

crackerd said:


> What with your alluding to Snickers (nee Marathon) bars per that honourary Quebici Mr. Niles Bora, along with the raging Montreal Bagel War (OK, you left that one unsaid), you seem to be seeking Canadian adjudication of "Joy Stealing" by either the late John Candy or, more probably, Eugene Levy. In other words, please explain that cultural phenomenon - for our derby edification and maybe a new song pirated by the Joy Division Stealers - *"The Rise of Schitts Creek."*
> 
> MG


SEE!!!! If you read that in YODA!! Its funny as Hell.. I cant make sense out of it just reading it in Gooser! What the H is a Qubicichie??? Is it Quichee??mis spelt


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Québécois ... A person from Quebec that believes in or fights for an independent Quebec. Or more loosely somebody whose roots go back to Quebec. All of my grandparents were from Quebec.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> paul young said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Ted. Poking holes in just about anything is easy; patching them up is a bit more difficult.
> ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think a LOT of us have publcally attacked people on this board..

At one time, it was great game..

Look in the mirror..


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I think a LOT of us have publcally attacked people on this board..
> 
> At one time, it was great game..
> 
> Look in the mirror..


I did...It broke:shock:


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

red devil said:


> Not going to argue with you but do want to point out a few facts....to whit: unidentified by you does not mean unidentified by all. Many people have had the dubious pleasure of meeting me. Secondly I thought you would have been around the dog games long enough by now to know that all swampcollie people share a mental telepathy where what is said or done by one is known by all. Person was identified long before I came along. I will share that I benefited greatly by using his techniques and for that I am grateful to the man. Just curious, other than Ernie, who else on this public forum is part of the conversation?
> 
> Stu Henderson


Stu 

This is really not about Bill Hillman per se. 

I don't think it's good form to name someone (here Bill) and throw them under the bus in a public forum. 

The fact that someone brought Bill into this discussion first by mentioning Bill's dog does not give everyone else license to join in. In fact, I mentioned to the OP that I thought his desire for a "discussion" of the role line manners played into evaluating dog work would have been just as productive without naming names.

In the same vein, I think your story would have been more amusing if you had left out names.

Ted


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Ted: you're right and in hindsight I do regret using Bill's name. I offer my apologies.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

red devil said:


> Ted: you're right and in hindsight I do regret using Bill's name. I offer my apologies.


No worries. Thanks for the apology.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Sabireley said:


> MINOR FAULTS. (Either severe, or repeated, or combinations of these “minor’’ infractions may summate into a “moderate,’’ or even a “serious’’ fault. Also, they may be so slight as not to warrant any penalty at all.)
> 1. Going out of its way by land, to an excessive degree, on the return from a water retrieve.
> 2. Lack of attention.
> 3. Poor line-manners; “heeling’’ poorly; not immediately taking and staying in the position designated; dropping a bird at delivery; jumping after a bird; not remaining quietly on-line after delivery.
> ...


That is very fresh in my mind. I read the whole judging manual the last two nights at work. Good stuff. I read a lot of stuff that contradicts a lot of the judging I saw while running derbies and Quals.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Red Devil,

It doesn't seem necessary to apologize to anyone here. None of your remarks were directed at any of us? 

I can certainly appreciate the desire to share a funny story and I also appreciate the view point that names were not needed or even warranted to get the point across. A little well timed humor is always a good thing for perspective.

If anyone was to be offended and where an apology might be better directed, I suppose it would be Bill... But I somehow bet he has developed a pretty thick skin over the years. 

no trainer is perfect, no dog is perfect, no judge is perfect. We can still respect a (great) trainer or a (great) judge, even if they make mistakes (gasp) or do things we don't agree with.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Tobias, now are you going to switch to Golden’s ?

Edit: LOL


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

HarryWilliams said:


> Tobias, now are you going to switch to Golden’s ?



My collar intensity doesn't go that low. LOL

It would be a change to have a golden around  . But I must admit to having owned 1.5. (the .5 was a golden/lab cross - I picked up as a pup at the grocery store in high school. first dog I ever had and the one that gave me the intitial 'bug' to train hunting dogs/retrievers)


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> red devil said:
> 
> 
> > Ted: you're right and in hindsight I do regret using Bill's name. I offer my apologies.
> ...


I thought you were Ted? Now you're Bill. This thread is a mess of confusion


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't care who you are or what you do. If you put yourself on a pedestal you ought to be prepared to not only have heavenly lights shown down upon your crown, but also to have people tossing the occasional tomato. _*Deserved or not*_. It is a fact of life for anyone whose name is recognized by large groups of people - entertainers, sports players, politicians, and even 'educators'... You will be in the public spotlight at some point.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Tobias said:


> _*Deserved or not*_. It is a fact of life for anyone whose name is recognized by large groups of people - entertainers, sports players, politicians, and even RTFers... You will be in the public spotlight at some point.


;-).................


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> ;-).................



you beat me to my edit! Around here, you better have a skin thick enough to withstand a Hellfire missile. hahaha!!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I don't care who you are or what you do. If you put yourself on a pedestal you ought to be prepared to not only have heavenly lights shown down upon your crown, but also to have people tossing the occasional tomato. _*Deserved or not*_. It is a fact of life for anyone whose name is recognized by large groups of people - entertainers, sports players, politicians, and even 'educators'... You will be in the public spotlight at some point.



This post embodies everything I despise about social media. 

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean you should.
Too many people think the ability to do something and the right to do something excuses poor conduct

Bill Hillman is not my friend. He is an acquaintance. We know each other and exchange pleasantries at field trials. We have never had dinner with one another. I do not follow his training videos and disagree with some of what he promotes (e.g. collar conditioning), but I have thought about attending a seminar just to see what his training is all about. All this is to emphasize that I am not defending Bill Hillman, the dog trainer, but rather Bill Hillman the human being. 

I have known Bill for a long time (20+ years), he has produced several spectacular dogs. I don't know that I view Bill as putting himself on a "pedestal". I don't think Bill has come on this forum, let alone thrown other trainers under the bus by name. And yet, according to Tobias, criticizing Bill and his dog, is acceptable and appropriate. 

I don't know Meghan Markle. I am not a fan of Downton Abbey or the Crown or the Royal Family. But, I feel sorry for her having to endure having her life turned upside down and being slammed for being of mixed race. Of course, following Tobais' principles, she signed up for it. She put herself on a "pedestal" by marrying Harry. The press has the right to publish what it wants about her. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, deserved or not. 

What's the big deal? The big deal is that we shouldn't treat anyone this way. 

Tobias, you have chosen to remain anonymous. Suppose you identify yourself and your dogs. Would you enjoy having others bash your dogs by name for poor line manners and you by name for your "vanity" on this forum? If you were being truthful with yourself, I think you would say no. 

And that's the bottom line here. If you don't want others to throw you and your dogs under the bus in public, then don't throw others under the bus. There's a reason for the Golden Rule. 

Ted


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Agree Ted - but it is a fact of life in the spotlight. I doubt it will ever change. It would be ignorant to enter the public arena without being prepared to accept ridicule from any side.... I am hugely a proponent of the golden rule.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

And no - I would not and do not appreciate disparaging remarks aimed toward me (warranted or unwarranted) - 
But it happens all the time. Tiger Fan, Erins Edge could fill you in, I am sure.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> This post embodies everything I despise about social media.
> 
> Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
> Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean you should.
> ...


Thank you Ted. That comment has been warranted for a very long time. People that have barely trained to a Sr. level with no obvious FT experience or success just should not be pontificating on all things retriever related with thousands of posts on every single discussion. 
This is why I have always been a proponent of real names on this site, so some level of credibility could be given or not to the comments posted.
Kind of like being in the gallery listening to a person saying what is right or not with the set up, judging, handling or anything else that happens to come int their mind and out of their mouth. 
Like Teddy Roosevelt said. It's not the critic that counts but the person who strives to do the deeds and while he may fail, he has failed while daring greatly. 
If you have not attempted to or are unprepared to "fail greatly" keep your comments to yourself about those who have.


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

Ted Shih said:


> Stu
> 
> This is really not about Bill Hillman per se.
> 
> ...



WHOAAAA... i have not been back here since last week when i originally posted. But it seems I made the right choice in deleting my thread within an hour of posting. I recognized where it was going and wanted no part of it. But it seems that many still had some pot stirring to do so a new thread was created.

Ted, maybe youre right...maybe the thread would have been fine without names. My original post was genuinely posted with all the excitement and awe of a young kid who just went to disney world for the first time / Meeting a celebrity dog that i had followed for a long time. I was honestly just super tickled that i got to witness such a spectacular display of marking ability. 

No where was there ever mentioned that the placements were wrong... that the judges were wrong... etc etc. what i stated was that the MARKS were better. ( they were ) And the creeping was a problem. ( it was ) I wished to gather opinions from others more knowledgeable than me as to their feeling on a certain fault in a derby.

To be honest i was just so jazzed up after running my first trial ever and making it a few series with Bill and other top pros...all i wanted to do was TALK about it.... seems all i ever want to talk about is dogs lol.

But it took a ugly turn quick. Ill admit, im not as savy when it comes to proper form when discussing these things. the 2 judges did a great job.... i set all the stations up for every single series. i had no complaints there !!! 

Just a young buck wanting to get with other dog people and shoot the sh%t about something spectacular i was lucky enough to witness.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> But it took a ugly turn quick.


and is the reason so many choose not to post here and why RTF is dying a slow death. 

Typical etiquette around here is not to name names when you want to discuss something. OH - and have 300 ribbons hanging behind you. hahahaha!!!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> why RTF is dying a slow death.


I had no idea :shock:
The prediction of it’s demise might be premature given that this topic is 7 pages and 132 posts long.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

Good one Ed!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote: Thank you Ted. That comment has been warranted for a very long time. People that have barely trained to a Sr. level with no obvious FT experience or success just should not be pontificating on all things retriever related with thousands of posts on every single discussion. 
This is why I have always been a proponent of real names on this site, so some level of credibility could be given or not to the comments posted.” end of quote


This,, right here is what aggravates me the most about RTF.. 
This Board is titled Retriever TRAINING Forum.. It’s a public forum about TRAINING a retriever..

I presume, Its about discussions of training any level of dog! Some folks comment that don’t TRAIN Dogs!! They PAY to have dogs TRAINED!! The Title of the board isn’t FT Handlers forum.. Or FT Judges Forum.. Its simply RETRIEVER TRAINING FORUM!!!

There are well trained retrievers that don’t have titles, or their trainers haven’t followed a formal program, They trained them themselves.. They hunt those dogs very efficiently, having their dog retrieve birds during hunting seasons..

I trained occationally for quite some time,, with a couple of those dogs.. Their owners didn’t chase titles. They didn’t read a formal rulebook.. They DON’T JUDGE period… they may not be FT level trained dogs,, but none the less,, their dogs will work right along my lowly “weekend” master hunter… and do a nice job too.. I have hunted with those dogs too.. very enjoyable days.. I am confident they could easily pass master hunt tests if they so desired..

I have been the brunt of comments made by “some” here.. many comments were in jest..I get that, and don’t have a problem with it,, but,, I have also been the target of what some call attacks (I think that a harsh word,, but that’s what they use) wherein I asked a simple question DIRECTED to folks that TRAIN their own dogs..I have received those comments (Attacks?) that stated it was frustrating to them to listen to my continual whining about my dog,,and the “Shortcommings” I have as a Trainer…. These particular people DON’T TRAIN THEIR OWN DOGS!!! They PAY someone to train their dog… Someone ELSE is required to come up with a way to get some point across to the dog.. Someone else is taking the steps and responsibility to teach.. I never received an apology! I don’t expect one! I consider the source,,and move on to accomplish the goal I set..

This board is Titled “Retriever TRAINING Forum”… I assume its about TRAINING a retriever!! Its not Titled “Retriever HANDLERS forum”..or “Retriever RULE BOOK forum” or most Importantly “Field Trial Retriever Training “ forum.. Its NOT Pelt collector forum..

The board is also a public board!! Its NOT Private.. There are no rules regarding credentials. Who may join,, who may contribute.. Nowhere does it state anything about required pelt acquisition. Nowhere!! Only a few her THINK that in order to participate,, the participant MUST have credentials.. If they don’t they shouldn’t post.. The worst is if that type person is beratted.. No ONE new or experienced should be disrespectful to anyone.. (I am no angel)

In real life… You may become expert at your field of TRADE.. You may be titled “Master”or “Journeyman” In real life,, there is a responsibility to that title. To the TRADE... There is an unwritten code of conduct that comes with it.. You may be required to be respectful to questions raised from “apprentices”, and be able to answer them so as to help the student proceed in their learning efficiently and successfully.. Those ,,are the Journeyman! The expert Masters! They have served their apprenticeship, done the work,, and become expert at it… They,, shall we say,, have done the work TRAINING DOGS.. They havent just simply attended a school,or multiple seminars, put on by a true Master.. They are not just a “Handler” that gives TRAINING advice based on their record of handling and attending/judging seminars ,, at tests/trials.. or simply reading books.. The Journeymen have a well rounded level of education PLUS JOB experience.. in this case…. TRAINING DOGS,,as the title of THIS forum states, right at the top of the page..

This forum is about TRAINING retrievers.. HRC dogs, AKC dogs. FT dogs.. HUNTING dogs (meat)..The diversity of experience and venues are great.. Respect is a universal law.. that is poorly practiced.. Any member can as questions!! Any member can choose to ignor them and not answer “Credentials” MAY be required from both sides, wether you are asking or answering a TRAINING question.. I will add… an inexperienced “”Apprentice” dog TRAINER will most definitely ask question that to some will seem “not worth their time” of they are “Bored” with that person, or those questions… Just DON’T ANSWER!!The great masters have a way to answer all, respectfully, based on their EXPERTICE with the real subject matter.. TRAINING dogs..

Journyman toolmaker 36 years.. That encouraged silly questions..


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> I had no idea :shock:
> The prediction of it’s demise might be premature given that this topic is 7 pages and 132 posts long.



haha! True Ed! Some posts do seem to go into the annals of RTF greatness. Or not. Thanks for the chuckle.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> I had no idea :shock:
> The prediction of it’s demise might be premature given that this topic is 7 pages and 132 posts long.


A train wreck usually gathers a lot of attention, after all.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote"Ted, maybe youre right...maybe the thread would have been fine without names. My original post was genuinely posted with all the excitement and awe of a young kid who just went to disney world for the first time / Meeting a celebrity dog that i had followed for a long time. I was honestly just super tickled that i got to witness such a spectacular display of marking ability." End quote


"There is nothing wrong with questioning a journeyman.... Respectfully,Question authority! It keeps them on their toes..


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## FUWGBS17 (Apr 6, 2018)

And we wonder why Derby entries are down 12%.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FUWGBS17 said:


> And we wonder why Derby entries are down 12%.


Over the years the size of the Derby stake varies, sometimes considerably, and appears to be cyclical. Nothing that occurs on this forum has any appreciable effect on the size of Derby entries.


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

EdA said:


> I had no idea :shock:
> The prediction of it’s demise might be premature given that this topic is 7 pages and 132 posts long.


Seven pages of invaluable nonsense!! Could have been a very valuable discussion had it been started properly from the beginning. There are but a handful of people that still believe in what this forum was founded on, and some that use it as a way to pass the time! . One has to wade through a lot to pick out the valuable pieces of information. I come here for knowledge, it is becoming harder by the day!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> Over the years the size of the Derby stake varies, sometimes considerably, and appears to be cyclical. Nothing that occurs on this forum has any appreciable effect on the size of Derby entries.


Doc, Have you seen a dog like Shadow being on a given circuit actually suppress entries?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> ...Have you seen a dog like Shadow being on a given circuit actually suppress entries?


It would have prevented me if I had had another choice in venue. As it was, I bit the bullet. Glad I did.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Tobias said:


> It would have prevented me if I had had another choice in venue. As it was, I bit the bullet. Glad I did.


Why? If you don't want/like competition stay over on the HT side. 

If that is your true feeling you will run away every weekend from the AA stake where you go up against the best week in and week out. 

I would drive extra miles for a smaller AA entry but never for weaker competition. Then again that generally won't be the case once a dog has reached that level.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Trick question! Everybody knows the only derby honour dog is at the Epsom D_*a*_rby when QE II's remaining *geriatric corgis are honouring her with their presence at the big race.
> *
> 
> 
> ...


Everyone likes competition ...They like to win ? 
I reckon you would be good at the Derby Corgi races Michael Globetti , My name is Robert Johnston of Polmaise Gundogs . HM ,would love you .
Taking part ,and taking apart are two different things .(imo) One is either in the game or a Game changer.
The one in the race may be first over the line , but I like the fiery one with the owner that doesn't know what they have .
and as our mutual friend 'Gooser' who shows more honesty and heart than many on this board would say . 
"Show me yours , warts an all" ? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPuKyeVsfZY


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Reginald said:


> Why? If you don't want/like competition stay over on the HT side.
> 
> If that is your true feeling you will run away every weekend from the AA stake where you go up against the best week in and week out.
> 
> I would drive extra miles for a smaller AA entry but never for weaker competition. Then again that generally won't be the case once a dog has reached that level.



Imagine you are running your hunt test trained dog in her first derby. And your dog's training has been 1/10 of the (ft)training of most of the other dogs. Of which 3 are handled by extremely exp handlers. It would be essentially like a high school varsity golfer stepping up to play a round against 3 Tiger Woods. (I dont play golf, but imagine this is pretty close in comparison)


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Everyone likes competition ...They like to win ?
> I reckon you would be good at the Derby Corgi races Michael Globetti , My name is Robert Johnston of Polmaise Gundogs . HM ,would love you .
> Taking part ,and taking apart are two different things .(imo) One is either in the game or a Game changer.
> The one in the race may be first over the line , but I like the fiery one with the owner that doesn't know what they have .
> ...


"Logan Handsome Pants" is a fine animal!
Just an uneducated observation!

(evidently, no one watched the whole video?)


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## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> Doc, Have you seen a dog like Shadow being on a given circuit actually suppress entries?


We ran Derbies when both Bullet and Ammo were both competing in our circuit. If I remember correctly, the average Derby entry was about 20 dogs per. I wish I would have had a greater appreciation for how rare the display of greatness was back then.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Doc, Have you seen a dog like Shadow being on a given circuit actually suppress entries?


I haven’t been around the Derby for awhile but this is how I would categorize the entries.
1) people chasing points for whatever reason
2) people with a promising young dog who want to see where they are relative to the field and how well they might perform in competition 
3) new people with a dog of unknown ability who just want to get their feet wet
4) professional trainers who focus on the Derby

The only people who would be likely to make decisions based on the competition are the ones chasing points.

The proliferation of double D/Qs and field trials with all age stakes only have affected the above to some degree. If I had a dog that I deemed ready to compete in the Derby (meaning capable of winning) I could care less about the competition and would not make an entry decision based on the competition.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Neither Shadow's nor the current NDC's presence dissuaded 28 others from entering either of our 2 derbies this past weekend. To the contrary, I think that some might seek the head-head competition. I would. 

Fun fact:
The same dog placed 1st in both derbies (Congratulations to Tommy and Cooper!)
The same dog placed 2nd in both derbies (Congratulations to Pam and Roman!)
The same dog placed 3rd in both quals (Congrats to Jordan/Hunter and Ryder; one from my litter!)
The same dog placed 4th in both quals (Congrats to Derek/Joey/Kenny and Belle!)


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

EdA said:


> I haven’t been around the Derby for awhile but this is how I would categorize the entries.
> 1) people chasing points for whatever reason
> 2) people with a promising young dog who want to see where they are relative to the field and how well they might perform in competition
> 3) new people with a dog of unknown ability who just want to get their feet wet
> ...


Ed, maybe another group would be handlers with dogs that plan on having an AA dog but would just like to put one on the Derby List but still having AA in mind. I had never had a pup I thought calm enough to withstand the rigors of Derby campaigning until this last one so I really wanted to run some, due to various reasons even though I consider him as good or better marker that I have had his training was not advanced enough to really compete. I think I ran about 14 Derbys and I picked him up 7 times (always in great shape) on cheats. We didn’t make the list, I think he had 5 points and several JAMS but he qualified fairly quickly once he started running AA stakes with JAMS. He didn’t run any Q’s but I think running the D’s and running test dog in several Q’s and AM’s helped him acquire some valuable trial experience. As exasperating the pickups were at the time I’m glad that I stuck to it and not allowed bad habits just to get points. The last Derby I ran, I drove 9 hours ( one more chance to make the list) and in the 3rd series there was a horrible little cheat on a very small pond ( with a 200 hundred yard entry) that only 2 dogs actually got in the water and went in front of the gun and I picked him up and drove home ( such is field trials sometimes) but again happy I did ( so much for my Derby career).


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Interesting note:
Dan DeVos and Karen and Nolan, Rain's owners actually were seeking out Bill and Shadow while competing for the points total for the Purina Award. Difficult with the gamesmanship going on entering multiple derbies over the country at the same time. By not avoiding Shadow they beat him several times and were able to gather enough points to win the award did so with almost half the number of starts and the highest points per start average in history. They also were able to maintain training standards for the dog......this I am truly in awe of.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Imagine you are running your hunt test trained dog in her first derby. And your dog's training has been 1/10 of the (ft)training of most of the other dogs. Of which 3 are handled by extremely exp handlers. It would be essentially like a high school varsity golfer stepping up to play a round against 3 Tiger Woods. (I dont play golf, but imagine this is pretty close in comparison)







I think two attitudes need adjustment here.
I wonder whats up with Reginald? Insinuating that Tobias should stay on the hunt test side? There are some to which that is true but I wouldn't say Tobias is one of them. She should be encouraged. I see her as someone that truly likes what she is doing with her dogs and is a student of the game and from what I have seen is pretty good at it. I don't agree with her all the time but so what.
And Tobias I have been where you were but did not look at it that way at all. I am still that way, as Reginald suggests, at every open I run. Also I too would prefer the smaller entry but not afraid of the competition. When I head to the line in any trial or any stake the other handlers or dogs are the last thing on my mind. My biggest challenge and competitor is the test the judges have set up. You first have to beat the test and satisfy the judges that you have done so before you can beat you fellow competitors.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Steve Shaver said:


> When I head to the line in any trial or any stake the other handlers or dogs are the last thing on my mind.


Listen to Steve. This is the way to think at a trial as well as in training. 
Enter the trials and stakes you want and pay no mind to the rest of the field.


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## Jerry Running (Feb 16, 2009)

It’s a good thing you all do not live in Wisconsin if you wish to run any stake here you only run against the best of the best if you were not willing to do that you’d spend a lot of time on the couch


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

I judged a Derby about 2 months ago where Shadow was running along with about 30 other derby dogs so I guess he did not chase too many people away.
My personal decision on entering a derby involves whether I will already be there fo another stake and can I expect it to get done in 1 day


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Jerry Running said:


> It’s a good thing you all do not live in Wisconsin if you wish to run any stake here you only run against the best of the best if you were not willing to do that you’d spend a lot of time on the couch


Yea, because so many Iowans run in Wisconsin


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Jerry Running said:


> It’s a good thing you all do not live in Wisconsin if you wish to run any stake here you only run against the best of the best if you were not willing to do that you’d spend a lot of time on the couch


You're right, all other circuits are ****. Give me a break, they're all hard.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Tobias said:
“Imagine you are running your hunt test trained dog in her first derby. And your dog's training has been 1/10 of the (ft)training of most of the other dogs. Of which 3 are handled by extremely exp handlers. It would be essentially like a high school varsity golfer stepping up to play a round against 3 Tiger Woods. (I dont play golf, but imagine this is pretty close in comparison)” End Quote..

This is exactly how I felt when I entered and ran my first derby This comment hits the nail on the head.. For me,, I didn’t know anyone, so in my mind every one of the handlers were very experienced,, and were running All Age dogs in a derby.. I was a Pee Wee football player lining up in the NFL.. 

Flinch was just about the age she would age out.. Cherylon encouraged me to enter and run..thought the experience would be good for me..
Heres what happened…

Just after I was called to the line, and was nervously showing the dog the marks,, a hand touched me on the shoulder, and said “Wait a minute”( I am going to use the guys name).. It was Ted! He said to me,, “Look,, you arnt going to win this thing,,so let’s take a minute and look at this, and I will help you through it.” 

It was a water series a LONG first bird thrown,,and then a longish flyer shot over the water. Ted helped me get the dog lined, and explained what we were doing,,and I sent her.. She did a beautiful job picking up the flyer. It Was challenging mark.. She came back, turned to look for the memory bird,and I could tell she was lost.. She went for the bird,,,but I ended up handling her… we were done..

Honestly,, I wasn’t surprised.. I felt out of place right out of the gate. I wasn’t thrilled by Teds help.. It made me more nervous,,and I was more aware worrying of what people were thinking!  I stuck around,and watched incredible dogs mark and pick up the birds in that series.. many made it look easy..

I planned to stay and watch the rest of the series of that derby.. later in the morning Ted came to me and said “stick around! The Judges have agreed to let those who were dropped to continue to play the rest of the day, out of contention of course”


I stood there stunned.. at first thinking “”Im high tailin it to my truck and getting the He!! Out of Dodge!  I stayed…
It worked out great..Though her work from then on,comparatively, probably would not have been good enough to place.. I was pleasantly surprised by some of it though.... I relaxed,, and had a great time..

The Judges were wonderfull.. (I THINK LPGAR was 1 of them) Talked to me as I worked the dog.. One time telling me to get the friggin whistle out of my mouth.  Very encouraging! Both of them! 

Like I said,, I wasnt thrilled with Ted at first..But to be *FAIR*,, I think he made a wonderful decision,and I thank him for it..

My Goal has never been to own and train a FT dog.. I absolutely Respect and Admire those of you that own those animals.. I was asked by Cherylon, what MY goals were.. I stated very early, my Goal was to own a Master Hunter,,but most importantly,, be able to feel like I “belonged” if I trained with a group of Master level dogs..It has always been my goal ever since I threw birds (Way younger,,and arm was better) for Master tests, way back in the 90’s when the dog, I had at that time,, we both,struggled to get through Junior.. 

I use to hunt a LOT with that Junior dog.. He did fine.. Spent nearly every weekend through the fall hunting some kind of bird,,but primarily Pheasant along the Kansas Nebraska border.. Many weekends, by myself with just the dog (the way I like it) Great memories.. He was 12 when I lost him..

Today I don’t run tests any longer.. I have my reasons… I don’t hunt as much as I use to,, but was just out the other day, had a great day,chasing penned “Poultry Pheasants” that cost me an arm and a leg.. Flinch is wonderful to Hunt over! The dog I always wanted.. She fishes well too..

My personal Goal has been reached.. By staying focused, and just running the hunt test games.. It was the best fit for ME..

There is only 1 person responsible for this…It is Miss Loveland.. She took the time to ask what my Goals were..She pushed me hard to overtrain for that.. a Horrible student I was!.. Reminded me on occasion J that some other dogs I was watching in training were FC’s .. I miss her, and those days dearly.. But,, every time I blow that whistle,, and see that “Sit”,, I think of her.. It is nothing short of a miracle that I own a dog like this.. She is my last..


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> I haven’t been around the Derby for awhile but this is how I would categorize the entries.
> 1) people chasing points for whatever reason
> 2) people with a promising young dog who want to see where they are relative to the field and how well they might perform in competition
> 3) new people with a dog of unknown ability who just want to get their feet wet
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to reply Doc. Great information.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Tim Carrion said:


> I judged a Derby about 2 months ago where Shadow was running along with about 30 other derby dogs so I guess he did not chase too many people away.
> My personal decision on entering a derby involves whether I will already be there fo another stake and can I expect it to get done in 1 day


Thanks Tim!


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## FUWGBS17 (Apr 6, 2018)

DarrinGreene said:


> Doc, Have you seen a dog like Shadow being on a given circuit actually suppress entries?


Not sure if the latest conversation was in reply to my statement about derby entries being down. I certainly was not suggesting that entrants are running from competition. Just seems the environment is so angry and discouraging these days. Not directed at anyone. I'm very new and ignorant to this game. Lucky to have a fairly talented dog and wanted to test the waters in the field trial arena and enjoy competition and more importantly spend time with my buddy doing what he loves. I have only run a handful of derbies, but can honestly say that after all was said and done, I felt the judges in every case got it right. Didn't always agree with the setups, but hey they all had to do it. I had the pleasure of running against Shadow about a month ago and were fortunate enough to get a JAM. Yes he crept on several series. Was it severe enough to devalue his marking? Not for me to judge. Don't know Bill, met for the first time. Seems like a nice guy who truly cares about Shadow. Good trainer or bad habit trainer? Again, not my call. Seemed happy and well cared for. I can say he's a great marker and seems to limit his mistakes. He did win that trial and in my ignorant opinion deserved it despite the creeping, based on my limited knowledge of the rule book. As a new person in the sport, I have no idea what my goals are, just want to learn more from others who have been there and done that and enjoy the process. That's my main reason for being here in the first place. To pick up some words of advice and insight from those of you who are much more experienced. So to that end, thank you to those of you have been encouraging here and at trials.


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## Missouricootkillr (Jan 4, 2020)

My very first derby I was the very first dog to run. On top of that I was not myself due to a tick born illness. So nervous in the second series I lined the dog up to watch the go bird first. He really stared it down! Never saw the memory bird thrown.

Judge said "Wondered what you were doing ? Thought maybe you trained that way."

Yea right.

Mark Ottis


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## Jerry Running (Feb 16, 2009)

Seems like some folks on here are pretty sensitive . Do they have field trials in North Dacota lol? Drunken Poacher there is legislation in Ron’s favorite Dane county to close its borders to Iowegians. Lol I’ll catch hell in Texas in a few weeks about that


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## Gray_Chin (Feb 24, 2017)

I feel like something was missed unless I missed it...Derby's are fun! Young dogs, doubles, enjoy the day, enjoy the dogs and the people...whether the next guys dog smashes the series or eats the flyer...run your own dog, and let the judges judge JMHO.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Gray_Chin said:


> I feel like something was missed unless I missed it...Derby's are fun! Young dogs, doubles, enjoy the day, enjoy the dogs and the people...whether the next guys dog smashes the series or eats the flyer...run your own dog, and let the judges judge JMHO.


i really wish there was a “Like” button!&#55358;&#56611;&#55357;&#56382;&#55357;&#56382;&#55358;&#56611;


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

2tall said:


> i really wish there was a “Like” button!��������


^^^^^^^^
This


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Jerry Running said:


> Drunken Poacher there is legislation in Ron’s favorite Dane county to close its borders to Iowegians. Lol I’ll catch hell in Texas in a few weeks about that


Dane county needs to hire this guy;
https://youtu.be/PCep1va2HNI


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Bobby, look at what you started...typical morphing of a RTF thread 17 pages of expert nom de guerre hyperbole some of which contain disclaimers ( I’m new and ignorant) and then state their opinions on so and so marks were definitely better.....and their observations and judgements on successful FT trainers and judges in the same post. You’ve got to have a sense of humor in this game.


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

Ken Barton said:


> Bobby, look at what you started...typical morphing of a RTF thread 17 pages of expert nom de guerre hyperbole some of which contain disclaimers ( I’m new and ignorant) and then state their opinions on so and so marks were definitely better.....and their observations and judgements on successful FT trainers and judges in the same post. You’ve got to have a sense of humor in this game.



LOL yes, Im new to running field trials. But i spent the better part of 2019 training for the most successful hunt test trainer in history. Im pretty sure i can distinguish marks.... id be willing to wager any Joe off the street could tell you which dog marks a bird better when it was this polarizing. i dont think it takes decades of knowledge and hundreds of trials to differentiate marks. One backsided many guns / one did not / one challenged factors and went straight to the bird with zero hunt / and one avoided and hunted. One got out early on water / one front footed all the birds. lol The issue here was the creeping.... look, the marks were better.... the creeping was bad and cost him. Was never claiming any judge was wrong. Yikes. How this sub thread has gone this far is beyond me. 

But who knows maybe i am remembering it wrong...so i went back and checked the videos on my phone and....yup. Marks were still better.


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

the original post only states that i was overcome with excitement running my young pup in her first FT against the BEST names in the derby world. I was reliving the excitement of the weekend, 1- hanging with the big dogs and 2- getting to see some of my idols run some AMAZING dogs. Where my lack of experience comes in was the steadiness. Where I was training the emphasis was put on steadiness. Absolutely ZERO movement was allowed. I knew to expect some different standards in FTs and i witnessed it. the post was simply summed up.... " wow...what a display of marking. the creeping was more than i expected and cost him and in your opinion would you judge it harshly ? " I was honestly expecting some light heated discussion. boy was i wrong.

Nowhere did i say the judges got it wrong.... i see now how it might have looked that way and a few of you were foaming at the mouth. So the thread was deleted. But here we are a week later... so far off target / hurling insults etc etc.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> LOL yes, Im new to running field trials. But i spent the better part of 2019 training for the most successful hunt test trainer in history. Im pretty sure i can distinguish marks.... id be willing to wager any Joe off the street could tell you which dog marks a bird better when it was this polarizing. i dont think it takes decades of knowledge and hundreds of trials to differentiate marks. One backsided many guns / one did not / one challenged factors and went straight to the bird with zero hunt / and one avoided and hunted. One got out early on water / one front footed all the birds. lol The issue here was the creeping.... look, the marks were better.... the creeping was bad and cost him. Was never claiming any judge was wrong. Yikes. How this sub thread has gone this far is beyond me.
> 
> But who knows maybe i am remembering it wrong...so i went back and checked the videos on my phone and....yup. Marks were still better.


Um, yes, with this statement you are saying the judges got it wrong. Can't you see that?


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## KingOfTheGlades (Oct 10, 2018)

rboudet said:


> Um, yes, with this statement you are saying the judges got it wrong. Can't you see that?


What im saying is im not sure to what extent creeping should be judged. I am CLUELESS to it... all i knew was derby = marking. The judges chose to mark down for the creep...and i agree with it !!!! I just was looking for some discussion on the issue. To me a derby should be 95% on MARKING. but there has to be a standard on movement as well. Was just looking to get some more opinions. 

You want to act like i couldnt possibly have seen a dog run BETTER MARKS because he got 2nd. Couldnt he have ran better marks AND got 2nd for the creep? = not calling the judges wrong.


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> What im saying is im not sure to what extent creeping should be judged. I am CLUELESS to it... all i knew was derby = marking. The judges chose to mark down for the creep...and i agree with it !!!! I just was looking for some discussion on the issue. To me a derby should be 95% on MARKING. but there has to be a standard on movement as well. Was just looking to get some more opinions.
> 
> You want to act like i couldnt possibly have seen a dog run BETTER MARKS because he got 2nd. Couldnt he have ran better marks AND got 2nd for the creep? = not calling the judges wrong.


Although YOU feel Marking s/b 95%, the rulebook doesn't say that. The extent of the creep and the penalty for repeated infractions is up to the judges interpretation of the rulebook.

I was not there, so cannot comment on how bad the creep or alleged controlled break was, but I have judged plenty at all levels and can tell you each situation is different and judges, for the most part, try to do their best to interpret and apply the intent of the rulebook.

I judged an Amateur a couple years ago where a certain dog was heads and tails above every other dog in the field on marking and blind performance, but crept on every bird in every series, including on the blinds. The creep in the 4th series was pretty serious and it took the handler about 5 minutes to re-heal the dog. It was a damn shame, given the other work the dog did, but they put it in the rulebook for a reason. Marking may be of primary importance, but it is not the only criteria a judge is required to consider. Had it not been for the line manners and creep, we both agreed this dog would have clearly won our stake. At the end of the day, my co-judge wanted to drop the dog and we had every justification for doing so, but we agreed to drop him from 1st to RJ instead. Line Manners and Creeping DO MATTER.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> a sensible response would have read something like " yes, to me the constant creeping would have been grounds enough to warrant a moderate fault and could have dropped the dogs placement per the rule book How is that a "sensible response" from someone who didn't see the marks,creeps or anything else of any of the dogs thus making it impossible to judge the relative worth of the field ...even though the marks were way way better" That was your opinion; that doesn;t make it factual
> 
> Instead you chose to go with " YOU WEREN'T THE JUDGE / THE JUDGES KNOW MORE THAN YOU !! / YOUR OPINION DOESN'T MATTER !!!  Sad that you would question those response
> 
> that BP might be slightly elevated....


In red!!!!


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

KingOfTheGlades said:


> What im saying is im not sure to what extent creeping should be judged. I am CLUELESS to it...Your narrative keeps changing. Here you say you are CLUELESS to how a creep should be judged. In other posts you say you know that it is a fault that could be anything from a minor to major fault all i knew was derby = marking.Derby does equal marking as well as many other factors. Major difference in rules for Derby are no handling and they should be judged and tested on Natural abilities The judges chose to mark down for the creep...and i agree with it !!!! Again you change your narrative. Your OP stated that you went to other stake and announced that Shadow had won. I just was looking for some discussion on the issue. To me a derby should be 95% on MARKING.The rule book does not support this but there has to be a standard on movement as well. Was just looking to get some more opinions.
> 
> You want to act like i couldnt possibly have seen a dog run BETTER MARKS because he got 2nd I never said that, in fact I said the exact opposite in red towards the bottom of post 44 Couldnt he have ran better marks AND got 2nd for the creep?Yes he could also have gotten anything from 1st to dropped depending on the severity of creeps = not calling the judges wrong you did in your OP


I'm not trying to be an Ahole to you, but you keep wanting to have a discussion based on your changing narrative of what you believe happened in AN ACTUAL EVENT judged by people other than you me or anyone relevant to that discussion, other than poster #51.
You claim you aren't questioning the Judges decision. But you clearly and overtly did in your original post. And to many of us you still are still subtly questioning their decision. You also in your OP only mentioned a bit of a creep in a couple of series. Now you admit it was significant creeping.
You also want us to accept your version that Shadows marks were head and shoulders above all other dogs. This was an actual event, not a hypothetical. In that case; Only the judges sitting in the chair can determine that or project that input onto us for a judging scenario vis a vis the significance of any perceived marking advantages of one dog in judging the relative merits of another dogs marking and creeping. ....BTW ...
....MARKING & CREEPING are only two of manyfactors to be taken into consideration in regards to callbacks and or placements

With that being said I encourage you to reread posts 44, 51 & 69
#44 at the top portion reiterates my thoughts on your hypothetical questions failure in relation to a real life situation. At the bottom I {foolishly} accepted your invitation to discuss judging based on a actual hypothetical perception of one dog with far superior marks relative to the field and how "a bit" of creeping could impact placements.
I took the side that if I were sitting in the chair I would argue for the far superior marking dog who crept a bit.
Curiously I acquiesced to your request to have a judging discussion and placements based on your perceived performances of one dog versus the field based solely on your two factors of far superior marking versus a bit of creeping.
Yet you have failed to respond to that hypothetical discussion you claimed was your desire?!?!

#51 is a post from one of the actual Judges. Unfortunately, You could tell he was justifiably a bit perturbed to have to come on and defend their decision on placements.
He also cleared up that your OP greatly underestimated the degree of the creeping. He also stated that they had a clear winner based upon the ACTUAL performance of the dogs 
More significantly that post shows that you should not make posts about judging scenarios whereby you identify the trial. It is a great sacrifice and quite a significant commitment to give up your weekend to Judge a Trial. We should be appreciative of that sacrifice

#69 does a great job of pointing out some significant facts and relevant rulebook passages to be considered
I have no quarrel with threads asking judgement questions. The fresh perspective from newcomers frequently inspire the best most mind provoking ones.
I encourage you tokeepmit up, just don't name actual events going forward

Lastly, I am excited for the passion you show for the game and encourage you to stick with it and wish you great success and enjoyment with your dogs. They are wonderful animals that give so much and can open many opportunities for fun and friendship


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

OP: "...Do you agree that a significant creep should take you out of contention for first."
Apparently it can.

For me, it depends on the severity and frequency. Being the owner of a world-class creeper, of course I think the penalty should be minimal.


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Could someone please conjugate the verb run I’m getting really confused.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

FUWGBS17 said:


> Not sure if the latest conversation was in reply to my statement about derby entries being down. I certainly was not suggesting that entrants are running from competition.* Just seems the environment is so angry and discouraging these days.* Not directed at anyone. I'm very new and ignorant to this game. Lucky to have a fairly talented dog and wanted to test the waters in the field trial arena and enjoy competition and more importantly spend time with my buddy doing what he loves. I have only run a handful of derbies, but can honestly say that after all was said and done, I felt the judges in every case got it right. Didn't always agree with the setups, but hey they all had to do it. I had the pleasure of running against Shadow about a month ago and were fortunate enough to get a JAM. Yes he crept on several series. Was it severe enough to devalue his marking? Not for me to judge. Don't know Bill, met for the first time. Seems like a nice guy who truly cares about Shadow. Good trainer or bad habit trainer? Again, not my call. Seemed happy and well cared for. I can say he's a great marker and seems to limit his mistakes. He did win that trial and in my ignorant opinion deserved it despite the creeping, based on my limited knowledge of the rule book. As a new person in the sport, I have no idea what my goals are, just want to learn more from others who have been there and done that and enjoy the process. That's my main reason for being here in the first place. To pick up some words of advice and insight from those of you who are much more experienced. So to that end, thank you to those of you have been encouraging here and at trials.







That is mostly an internet thing I think. I certainly hope you don't get that feeling at a trial. Stick with it and have fun!


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