# Why do High Point Derby dogs fail in all-age



## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Page 24 of RFTN shows the top derby dogs that were born in 2007. The records as all age dogs of these "top dogs" is published and they continue to perform-Bullet,Rev,Juice, Willy,Swettie, Nike, Ten Trav,Spice. How about those whose names appear and no one has heard of since?I believe it is due to the owners ego - they feel they are "Famous" because the dog shows natural talent so the owner immediately pressures the dog to become a titled dog and in so doing ruins the dog. Most of those who own currently successful all age dogs from that Derby class have trained them themselves. Does that mean that the owners of those dogs that were a flash in the pan do not know how to advance a derby dog? I think that the reason that 90% of the current derby dogs that are entered are pro run and trained and therefore we continue to lay a groundwork where the ability to develop a puppy to a top derby prospect and then to all age is being lost. Some of these "top derby dogs" owners(2009) have never won an Open in all the years that they have been in the sport-does that make them slow learners or poor trainers? The Derby is in a state of transition and I feel that unless we get more people who want to work with their dogs, who love their dogs more than they love seeing their names in print, who are willing to put in their own time and commit then the stake will continue to deteriorate to a professionally run event. I recently watched 14 dogs in a derby-12 run by the same pro and 3 owners sitting in lawn chairs watching, I almost puked.Where are the future club members going to come from? Presently 3 clubs have so few members that they have moved their trials from the northern climes to Texas. Why? Because the pros have too many dogs for the number of trials presently held in Texas, so they have kept the name, moved the date and location and hired help-I am sad to see the demise of the Derby as well as that of the amateur trainer, but I have had a good ride and will until it is time to try a Seconal cocktail.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Owning dogs is pretty expensive and the economy isn't the greatest at the moment. I would love another young dog at the moment but, can't afford it. Not sure where that leaves alot of other young Am's. 

Nice to meet you two weeks ago- I shot your fliers in the first series and we talked about the blind briefly. Hope to have more time to chat with you again in the future. 

Paul


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

There are dogs trained for the derby and there are dogs who are trained to be all-age dogs who just happen to run a few derbies to get the feel of competition, mine are in the latter category as are many of my contemporaries dogs. I have 2 three year old littermates with Amateur wins, they ran 5 or 6 derbies, one with 12 points one with 8, that was enough for me and for them.


----------



## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Ed I am of the same belief- Mariah had 13 derby points 300= aa points, Coke 1 point- 289 aapoints, Rosa 12 derby points FC/Afc at 4 1/2 with STYLE, Nora 11pts-2nd+ 3rd aa amateur points, Eva 12 derby points qual 12 Nationals= Double header- my point is obvious there are very few who do not make the time (Like Cris Hatch) to train before work, at lunch hour and till dark in the evening. Like Rex said"how do you get them sharp?" "You get them sharp through work". Or as Rex used to state(I love it)" As the monkey said as he was diddling the porcupine "where there's pleasure there's pain"


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Lanse, my friend, you _do_ have a way with words!

Evan


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

EdA said:


> *There are dogs trained for the derby and there are dogs who are trained to be all-age dogs who just happen to run a few derbies to get the feel of competition*, mine are in the latter category as are many of my contemporaries dogs. I have 2 three year old littermates with Amateur wins, they ran 5 or 6 derbies, one with 12 points one with 8, that was enough for me and for them.


Absolutely agree.


----------



## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

In the past, I've seen a lot of owners who did not succeed in all-age work after their dogs “aged out” of the derby. There were multiple reasons this happened. 
1) Owner did not possess the knowledge and experience to progress beyond the derby, and also did not have the income to place the dog with a pro. (a couple guys I know in this category, were advised to sell their dogs. They did and both dogs became FC-AFC).
2) Owners did not use e-collars or FF their dogs. They wouldn’t do this. Unsuccessful attempts were made to progress after derby, but lack of ability to complete resulted in giving up in a year or two.
3) Some owners believe that using an e-collar, teaching a dog to handle, de-cheating and forcing the dog etc. etc. (using anything other than mild correction or attrition), hurts the dog’s marking and 
would not do these things while campaigning a derby dog. Although willing to use these tools and techniques after derby is over, a few high rollers are never brought under sufficient control to succeed.
4) Some new-to-the-game folks followed along on a sound program, and enjoyed much success in the derby. Later on, there is a lot more work to do, (not to mention more expense) and a lot fewer ribbons. A few people make an informed decision that it’s simply not worth it.


----------



## John Shoffner (Jan 27, 2009)

Hi Lanse, 

You make some good points. I too am concerned about the new blood coming into the clubs. Many of the hunt test and field trial clubs have evolved into existing only to run their events and no longer offer training opportunities for existing or prospective members. With so many competing things going on in peoples lives, it is hard to get everyone together at any given time to train and work with the new people to build the necessary skills that will enable them to move forward and be successful in future trials. It is hard to hook people on the sport and get them to come out and work trials if they do not see other "benefits" associated with affiliating with a club.

I have chaired two previous events and worked many others as a marshal or wherever needed. I love getting out and training, helping run events, being around other retriever enthusiasts and enjoy it even more when I am able to run my own dog. I think a lot of people are more focused on building their dog's resume for future breeding purposes rather than taking a chance on handling the dog themselves and possibly making a mistake. However, you can not ever improve if you never step up to the line! There is a lot of pressure with the gallery and trying to stay focused on whats important so that you have a successful trial. Its a great feeling though and I certainly wish I could do it more.


----------



## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Pro trained/run derby dog=1 day to travel to trial+3 days at trial+1 day to travel home=not much time to train said derby dog. I've wondered if that didn't have anything to do with some dogs ability to handle more advanced training later on?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have zero experience training monkey's but I feel like a pretty good expert on pain since the ex-wife was a porcupine who learned how to throw quills. 

My observation of Derby's matches what Dr. Ed and Lanse both said about people's goal. Some train for Derby, others train for All Age from the beginning. Some folks get caught up in the success of having a talented young dog succeed in Derby without thought of what it takes to get to higher end talents. By the time a dog gets to two years old they have allowed bad habits to form in the dog that it may never recover from in order to compete at higher levels. The other thing I observe is judges rewarding dogs in the derby by placing them and completely overlooking minor to major faults such as breaking, and vocalization. I watched a young Chopper pup that was a huge screamer, barked and howled from the parking lot to every bird it retrieved and yet still get wins and placements. Owner ran him in every derby he could get to but once he aged out, that dog was done. Marking is of primary importance but not to the exclusion of everything else, even in Derby.

/Paul


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

minnducker said:


> 4) Some new-to-the-game folks followed along on a sound program, and enjoyed much success in the derby. Later on, there is a lot more work to do, (not to mention more expense) and a lot fewer ribbons. A few people make an informed decision that it’s simply not worth it.


As a relatively newbie, going on 6 1/2 years now for FTs, I feel like this sometimes and I have struggled to figure out why and how to fix it...I'm hoping a new puppy and the prospect of running the Derby will keep me from throwing in the towel...

FOM


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

minnducker said:


> In the past, I've seen a lot of owners who did not succeed in all-age work after their dogs “aged out” of the derby. There were multiple reasons this happened.
> 1) Owner did not possess the knowledge and experience to progress beyond the derby, and also did not have the income to place the dog with a pro. (a couple guys I know in this category, were advised to sell their dogs. They did and both dogs became FC-AFC).
> 2) Owners did not use e-collars or FF their dogs. They wouldn’t do this. Unsuccessful attempts were made to progress after derby, but lack of ability to complete resulted in giving up in a year or two.
> 3) Some owners believe that using an e-collar, teaching a dog to handle, de-cheating and forcing the dog etc. etc. (using anything other than mild correction or attrition), hurts the dog’s marking and
> ...


in response to your statements


1. been happening for decades...very hard to turn down a decent year's salary for a dog,Kippy is to the retriever world what Steinbrenner is to the baseball world...the Derby list is like the free agent market in sports, someone just might pay the fortunate owner for the next great dog

2/3. your premise could also be looked at that the owner/handlers didn't have the ability to to train an AA dog...the dog has talent, all dogs on the derby list have talent...but in many instances so much pressure is put on that dog to advance them to the next level that they fold and wilt, leaving the minions to ask ..whatever happened to _____...has very little to do whether or not they were FF or collar trained...maybe years ago but not now

4. spot on


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

lanse brown said:


> The Derby is in a state of transition and I feel that unless we get more people who want to work with their dogs, who love their dogs more than they love seeing their names in print, who are willing to put in their own time and commit then the stake will continue to deteriorate to a professionally run event. I recently watched 14 dogs in a derby-12 run by the same pro and 3 owners sitting in lawn chairs watching, I almost puked..



Well said Lanse!!

* I enjoyed running my first Field Trial dog in Derby, Q, HT* (after a few run by his Pro, except for our first Derby together when we got a 2nd)...spending quality time and swapping spit with my best frend, enjoying watching him run-seeing it all come together and *MORE importantly gaining the experience I so needed*. Sure we took plenty of political knocks, been abused by some pretty awful bottom feeder competitors that had brought me to tears (someday I will have my very own porta potties named in their honor) and I made lots of mistakes costing him points.... BUT, I would not have gone back and changed it for a minute.. *we had a blast and enjoyed the ride! * How in the world would I have learned anything without the hands on experience of running my own dog and would fun would it be for either of us, if I sat at home or on the sidelines!!

I'm so very grateful for the day Ten and I met you Lanse.... you've been such a positive influence and mentor, without you I don't think I would have lasted in this game thus far!


Barb & Ten ----Top 10 Derby Dog US, Top 10 Derby Dog Canada


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Training dogs is a lot of work. Training good dogs is rewarding for the time spent training. Many want the success and the satisfaction of handling a well trained dog because like so many things we do in life it is tied to personal achievment and our ego.
Top flight dogs and handlers are a result of a lot of work. Many realize this and cannot or will not make the sacrifice of time and effort to achieve the higher levels of performance. In short they just don't want it bad enough. It really has to burn in your belly.


----------



## bmiles (Aug 20, 2004)

Looking at the big picture being somewhat new myself when talking about training your own dog for field trails. Everyone ask where are all the new people?

How many retriever clubs that put on trails are clubs only so they can host an event? Do these club host training days to invite new members to train? This is a subject all on its own. I think that everyones time is so valuable anymore it takes the right oppurtunity to get in a good training group. Most sucessful trainers had mentors that helped them get their. I know they had to have the desire to get out there. I started in hunt test just like many people. I was lucky enough to have a friend of mine that had lots of time and resources to start running a few trails. As he learned I was lucky enough to be training with him and learn through his experiences. Without that oppurtunity I would not be able to train a dog to the level I have without the help of a pro trainer. For the amount of time I have put into my dog I have been sucessful in my eyes. I know with a young family and 50-60 hours a week job I do not have the time to have a competitive all age dog. That does not stop me from training at an all age level and running a few trails.


----------



## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

I am a nobody with a couch dog but when he was healthy I loved to train. I don't know much about it but i do know i loved to train and would love to play the game. i go to the couple local FT's every year just to watch.

The biggest thing that keeps me out beside an unhealthy dog is the money, skils, and time that is needed to train a dog to be comeptitive at the level of the current tests. city folk are the majorty of the population and to get to grounds suitable for training takes EVERYTHING. 

Do i have the money to send a dog to a pro? yes. will i do that ? never in a million years. My dog, I train them. 

The tests have progressed to the point where only a dedicated few can and will spend the money and time to compete. I think you will find the more you push the difficulty of the tests the fewer participants you will have.


----------



## moonstonelabs (Mar 17, 2006)

AB3 ( I don't know you well enough to use your first name)I found your comments to be out of sync with reality...which is surprising given your approxamate half century of experience. I will try to explain:

- statistically, few dogs ever become field champions. That was true when you began and remains true today. So your refernce to "failure" doesn't ring true

- the norm for those few dogs that are field champions is betwen 4 and 8 years of age.... your refernce to the class of 07 is a bit premature.

- even fewer trainers ( amateur) have grounds, time and money like you ( massive properties in two states, hire your own bird boys, etc) to do the work to achieve field champion status. The Chris Hatchs are rare individuals in any generation of the sport. I suspect it will forever remain so.

-Owners ego? Wanting to be famous? I doubt it. Derby points/list do not a famous dog/owner make.

- presure ( ruin) dog to be titled. I am sure some have...I know you have....doubt many do.

-"slow learner or poor trainers"...humm a bit judgemental of you and beneath your self anoited staus as keeper of the flame for all that is good and right in the sport ( according to you).
-sport continues to deteriorate; need more who love dogs more than seeing their name in print...see above.

-you forsee the demise of derbies ( too many pro's running dogs) and the amateur trainer. I was hearing that ( from you) years ago yet the sport continues ....not sure why given your statements.

-tough sport. Like life it is a journey. Perhaps if more had your resouces and 50 years in which to participate they would share your oulook.

I am not there yet.

Bill


----------



## Rdozier (Jun 11, 2011)

Bottom line is this....whatever makes you happy is what should work for you. Saying it was bad for me to watch my dog in the Derby (all 8 pts) vs. running her myself is like saying I shouldn't watch College Football (go Gamecocks) because I didn't play college football.

Cara Mock trained my dog from the beginning While I have built a business, sold a business, raised three kids, stayed married and now made a major move...Cara continues to train my three year old Genny. 

I cherish every minute I can get out, train, enjoy my training pals and spend time with my dog!!! That is my idea of getting rid of stress!!

This "you ain't real because you are an amateur and didn't train your own dog" attitude simply amazes me. I say to each his or her own!


I enjoy every amateur I compete in, but I also loved that lawn chair watching Genny and Cara compete in the Derby!

Robert Dozier


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

I hear ya Rob... I think this thread might have been directed to "those" that are more willing and able.



Rdozier said:


> I enjoy every amateur I compete in, but I also loved that lawn chair watching Genny and Cara compete in the Derby!
> 
> Robert Dozier


Unfortunately, I couldn't sit in a lawn chair to watch Mark and Ten run even if I wanted to, because I spoiled him so damn rotten... he would have left the line and gone sit on my lap or his brain would simply go to fudge. Still working on it!! my bad.

Hope all is well with you,

Barb


----------



## BentleysMom (Nov 6, 2010)

Recently just went to my 2nd Derby FT. 29 dogs and 28 were off pro trucks. My dog included. Although my dog is pro trained, I do participate and throw birds at least 5 or 6 days a week. Having said that, I felt overwhelmed by the pro dogs and how good they all look. So many call backs that each series gets so hard you're darn near doing a Qual set-up. Needless to say I'm not sure I want to spend anymore money into the sport when it's such a long shot to win or place. I basically knew who the winners would be before the Derby started, just by watching them the week before. 

I have a good dog but so do all the other owners/trainers!! All 29 of them. Felt a little bad for the AM. Still had a good time, still trained every night since then. Thinking about the next one maybe in a month or so. Need to save the money for now.


----------



## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Just judged a Derby. 13 started, 4 amatuers. Amatuer took second.

The next weekend, I shot flyers at a derby. 16 started. At least 5 were handled by amatuers. 1st and 4th were amatuers


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I think dedicated and hard working amateurs with training skills can beat the pros in the Derby and they do beat them. 

Amateurs can put more training time into their Derby dogs than a pro can. Think about it. If a pro has 16 dogs on his truck, a dog may get 1/16 of the training day. His Derby dogs will get less than 1/16 because usually the pro is going to spend more time on his all age dogs than his Derby dogs. 

To beat the pros, amateurs have to dedicate themselves to 1. learn how to be a better trainer and 2. spend more time training your dog.

Of course, you have to start out with a good marking dog to get anywhere in Derby. 

There were many talented young dogs running in Derbies on the west coast in 2010. Competition was tough; it took pins to win. Most of the 2010 Derby wins and placements on the west coast were by amateurs. 

Helen


----------



## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

Bill saved me a lot of typing...

Field trialing is a tough game, and it's especially challenging for regular working folks. I know, I am one. Some of us only run a handful of trials a year. Training grounds are hard to come by, and grounds with good water is even more difficult to find. Personally, I'm fortunate to live where I do. Cattle outnumber people and land can be found if you look. 

Training, owning dogs, and competing is expensive. If you have to travel much, it really gets expensive. Some of us who try to play this game work full time and are on limited budgets, very much unlike many who play the game. 

Pros and ams with unlimited time and money dominate the game. That's just the way it is. Some people are satisfied for varied reasons for only competing in derbies and quals. Not one thing wrong with that. 

fp


----------



## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Rdozier said:


> Bottom line is this....whatever makes you happy is what should work for you. Saying it was bad for me to watch my dog in the Derby (all 8 pts) vs. running her myself is like saying I shouldn't watch College Football (go Gamecocks) because I didn't play college football.
> 
> Cara Mock trained my dog from the beginning While I have built a business, sold a business, raised three kids, stayed married and now made a major move...Cara continues to train my three year old Genny.
> 
> ...


Well said Robert and Go Cocks!!!


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

moonstonelabs said:


> AB3
> 
> -Owners ego? Wanting to be famous? I doubt it. Derby points/list do not a famous dog/owner make.
> 
> ...


Hi Bill... I enjoyed competing in Derby against Livvy. And was impressed with Emmitt's 75 Derby points.

I did see that a Pro is running him in the Open. But, I haven't seen or heard much of Emmitt, nor has he placed in any All Age Stakes in ths US since the Derby. Has Emmitt been ill? I certainly hope not.

I grant you as well, it is very difficult on a retired Air Force Major pension to continue. I'm just curious from a statisical - feasable point of view, as I strive to continue in this game.... in the 20 - 30 years that you've been in the sport, have you yourself ever won an Open?

Barb


----------



## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Barb Bill won a national. By the way Bill thanks for opening up your grounds In Mt for everyone to pre-national on they are very nice.
Chad


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

chad baker you need to update that signature line with grady's new letters!

this thread has discussed the importance of training skills, available time, willingness to travel, fire in the belly, work ethic, constant acceptance of failures, training grounds, selection of breedings, access to talented pups, king sized egos and the all important inexhaustable supply of money $$$$$$.

until i read the list of requirements, i never realized how good i am gonna be at this ft thingy!!!! boys and girls, lookout for my bitches next year...


----------



## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

roseberry said:


> chad baker you need to update that signature line with grady's new letters!
> 
> this thread has discussed the importance of training skills, available time, willingness to travel, fire in the belly, work ethic, constant acceptance of failures, training grounds, selection of breedings, access to talented pups, king sized egos and the all important inexhaustable supply of money $$$$$$.
> 
> until i read the list of requirements, i never realized how good i am gonna be at this ft thingy!!!! boys and girls, lookout for my bitches next year...


You have all of those?


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

rf2,
currently i am one for eleven. i have "fire in the belly"!!!! however, i think that may be from forgeting my nexium this morning and eating wings for lunch.


----------



## Guest (Aug 18, 2011)

Ten said:


> I did see that a Pro is running him in the Open. But, I haven't seen or heard much of Emmitt, nor has he placed in any All Age Stakes in ths US since the Derby. Has Emmitt been ill? I certainly hope not.
> 
> I grant you as well, it is very difficult on a retired Air Force Major pension to continue. I'm just curious from a statisical - feasable point of view, as I strive to continue in this game.... in the 20 - 30 years that you've been in the sport, have you yourself ever won an Open?
> 
> Barb


Can you please explain, pray tell, how this relates to this topic? I don't see Bill contradicting himself, or his actions, in any way shape or form in his post. Can you tell us what the point of yours is? 

Had you been genuinely concerned about Emmitt's health or truly curious about Bill's trial record, you could have PMd him, couldn't you? So again, what point are you trying to make?


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Ten said:


> Hi Bill... I enjoyed competing in Derby against Livvy. And was impressed with Emmitt's 75 Derby points.
> 
> I did see that a Pro is running him in the Open. But, I haven't seen or heard much of Emmitt, nor has he placed in any All Age Stakes in ths US since the Derby. Has Emmitt been ill? I certainly hope not.
> 
> ...


Did you seriously just call out another person's dog? I would be much more inclined to *thank* somebody for their AF service than throw their retirement out there as a zinger.


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Let's go back to Lanse Brown's original question and give opinions on... WHY DO HIGH POINT DERBY DOGS FAIL IN ALL-AGE? 

Granted, some Derby dogs high on the point list simply don't make the transition. Some reasons have been posted as to why they fail in all age. I think the post about the vocal Derby dog getting wins and placements, but not making it in all age stakes has merit. 

It seems to me that a great marking Derby dog who is vocal will get a pass on his/her vocalness by some judges. However, as the dog gets older and if it is still vocal, the vocalness will not be accepted in the all age stakes. 

Same with line manners. A bit of wild and wooly seems to be acceptable in Derby, but not when the dog grows older and is running in all age stakes.

Helen


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Did you seriously just call out another person's dog? I would be much more incline to *thank* somebody for their AF service than throw their retirement out there as a zinger.


I concur. Very poor taste.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

helencalif said:


> It seems to me that a great marking Derby dog who is vocal will get a pass on his/her vocalness by some judges. However, as the dog gets older and if it is still vocal, the vocalness will not be accepted in the all age stakes.
> 
> Same with line manners. A bit of wild and wooly seems to be acceptable in Derby, but not when the dog grows older and is running in all age stakes.
> 
> Helen


Rather the successful All Age Dog requires more sophistication and balance

Marking PLUS Blinds
Run by water, get in water skinny, stay in water
A great marking dog is not enough
You need to get through the blinds - particularly the water blinds, too

Balance is the key


----------



## moonstonelabs (Mar 17, 2006)

Barb, I am sorry I do not know you nor do I remember meeting you. Thank you for your concern about Emmitt. He is a work in progress on his blinds and is not ill. He does have JAMs in the "o" and "a" (US) and ran in a Canadian National as a two year old. I am happy with his progress. Occassionally Rob Erhart runs him when I am not avalable.

My first ft dog was born in 95, Libby. She was a MH and AFC and the love of my life. You might be interested to know that my wife Sarita won an open with her the very first time she (Sarita) ever ran an open.

So, I have actually been running FT's for 13 years ( I was serving over seas for three years) and have titled three different dogs ( two of which were from our own breedings). I am thankful that I could serve my country for thirty years. I was enlisted for six years and after graduating from ROTC was an officer for another 24. The last two years of service were done with a kidney transplant ( Sarita being my donor). I retired at a grade higher than major.

Yes, it is tough competing on retired pay. I am fortunate though that I can.

I hope this helps with the facts and your concerns about Emmitt.

All the best to you and Ten

Bill


----------



## Brent McDowell (Jul 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Balance is the key


I'm still a little new to this game, but IMO this is the key to having a successful dog. As I see it, dogs who progress and succeed in this game are good at all aspects of the game. Some are even great in one or more areas. To make it through the rigors of trials consistently, dogs need to be well-rounded. Some trainers can handle dogs around their shortcomings, but more often than not, those shortcomings will result in the dog being dropped somewhere along the way.


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

Chad Baker said:


> Barb Bill won a national.
> Chad


Chad, yup in Canada. I believe if I'm correct he won because his dog was the only dog without a handle in the last series. But, my question was had Bill ever won an Open in the US, little bit different ball game.

Barb


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Can you please explain, pray tell, how this relates to this topic? I don't see Bill contradicting himself, or his actions, in any way shape or form in his post. Can you tell us what the point of yours is?
> 
> had you been genuinely concerned about Emmitt's health or truly curious about Bill's trial record, you could have PMd him, couldn't you? So again, what point are you trying to make?


Pray tell, have you read the topic? I don't owe YOU any explanation. You're not my keeper. My mom tried to keep me and my husband is still trying. Sorry you couldn't get off on me, I'm familar with your posts.

Bronx Indian


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Rather the successful All Age Dog requires more sophistication and balance
> 
> Marking PLUS Blinds
> Run by water, get in water skinny, stay in water
> ...


Right on point Ted!


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

Bill,

Thank you for the reply. So very glad to hear Emmitt is well and a work in All Age progress. 


Barb


----------



## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

I guess that I haven't looked closley at the end-of-the-year high point Derby dogs, however I do believe with my RFTNews from 1970's onward that many dogs that have achieved Derby List accolades with the 10 points or more have acquired recognizable All Age accomplishments if not titles. I love the Derby. We quit after achieveing 10 points and go directly to the Q and have been very happy with our dogs and their successes. I don't have "Big Dogs" except for in our little Golden world but have stood the test of time with two of them in achieving all age wins and numerous placements and jams. There are many wonderful dogs that haven't been on the Derby list and many that got there and immediately jumped into majors. God bless the Derby because I can't blame myself for the f--k-ups.....as much. Holy-Cow...that's where the AA blinds get you and they are usually my fault. I have an 8 week-old right now and can't wait for his Derby career! Bless the babies!


----------



## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

Barb, when you're in a hole, you should quit digging.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Tom Watson said:


> Barb, when you're in a hole, you should quit digging.


It looks to me like she might be putting some others in the hole...


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

Tom,

I'm not in a hole! Standing tall and proud, standing by all I state. I have solid morals, honest and don't live with a conscious filled with guilt. Life is good!

~~~
I failed to mention that when I DID meet Bill when Rob was running Livvy in a Derby, which Ten was competing in. I did introduce myself and told Bill how nice Livvy looked and ran that day HANDLED by Rob, paying him a nice compliment.

Bill's response was that yeah, she's a Top Derby dog, brag upon brag, ego, ego, ego. He didn't care to even aknowledge who I was or care to, nor my dog who was right along side his dog on the Derby list. I didn't waste my breath. No wonder he doesn't remember meeting me, it was all about him.


Barb


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Children are suppose to be seen, not heard.


----------



## mbrookins (Dec 21, 2004)

I am fortunate that I have many different choices of training grounds within a short drive. My achilles heel is time. I sometimes must travel for work for extended periods. You cannot train an AA dog under those conditions. Working close to Right Start Kennels I was fortunate that I would get an opportunity to run my dog on lunch hours when Crash was with Jim. I also ran him in derbies and quals rather than Jim (he really encouraged me to do this). That was very helpful. Now that we can no longer run quals the dog just trains. I think Ted's comments are right on. There is a big step from Triple AAA ball to the majors. A dog needs more balance to be successful. I do not see the point to run AA stakes until we can be competitive.


----------



## bandd (Jan 6, 2009)

Normally I like to just read the posts to learn but I need to build up some posts to PM. Been around the game off/on since '94 but had to balance dog training w/AF service. Have titled MH dogs/some success (placements) in Q. Most responses are spot on about am training/trialing especially Bill (We met in OK) and Frank (met same weekend). Some of the antics in this thread have been particular entertaining. Thanks Barb.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Barb, why did you do that? Ten is a good dog, you have done well. What are you fighting about?


----------



## Ten (May 4, 2009)

2tall said:


> Barb, why did you do that? Ten is a good dog, you have done well. What are you fighting about?


Hi Carol,

Thank you for the compliment on Ten. 

Do what, I'm confused on that. There's no fighting here on my end. Just replying to the topic on hand, which was 3 fold, stating facts, getting some things off my chest, since a particular someone had a lot to say and was curious about certain top derby dogs, so I asked some questions. 

I thank Helen and Ted, they both made two very nice posts that answered the topic title. It was also nice to read the posts from Amatuers that run their own dogs whether Pro trained or not.

It's all good.

Take Care,
Barb


----------



## Guest (Aug 19, 2011)

lanse brown said:


> Some of these "top derby dogs" owners(2009) have never won an Open in all the years that they have been in the sport-does that make them slow learners or poor trainers?


Knock it off, Lanse. I am not on Team McKnight but this feud is getting tiring. Not cool of you to set your pawn Barb up to get your digs in for you. That is not fair to her.



lanse brown said:


> I recently watched 14 dogs in a derby-12 run by the same pro and 3 owners sitting in lawn chairs watching, I almost puked.


I've told you over and over, don't drink so much the night before a trial.:razz:

If you truly want the sport to flourish as you so claim, let's see you take a different approach. 

Melanie

ps Did you really expect a different response from me?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The path from Derby list to FC is a long one.

It requires a very good dog.
It requires a very good trainer.
It requires a very good handler.
It requires a healthy dog.
It requires a significant investment of time (whether or not you use a pro)
It requires a significant investment of money (whether or not you use a pro)

It should come as no surprise that most dogs earn their FC at 6+ years of age.

If it was easy, it wouldn't be so addictive.

Having a dog with a slew of derby points is no guarantee that you will be similarly successful in the Open.


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> The path from Derby list to FC is a long one.
> 
> It requires a very good dog.
> It requires a very good trainer.
> ...


Every person on this forum who has aspirations to compete in trials and who has the goal of putting a f.t. title on their dog should print what Ted has said and then tape it to their mirror ...so they can read it every morning.

Helen


----------



## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Took a little break and came in to eat lunch and read this thread while doing so. Some very good points are brought up even though It seems kind of like this started as some sort of pot stirring. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but its pretty plain to see whats going on here.

How do we ever BEGIN TO WONDER why new people dont get into the game?


----------



## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

TIM DOANE said:


> How do we ever BEGIN TO WONDER why new people dont get into the game?


I don't think we wonder about it anymore. 

With the downturn in the economy, there are fewer f.t. entries at many trials and clubs who put on field trials are feeling the financial pinch. Clubs are also scrambling for volunteer help from their members to put on their trials. 

On the other hand, clubs who also give hunt tests will survive financially as participation in HT have grown. The reasons participation in HT have grown are obvious. 

I heard recently that over 700 Master Hunter dogs have qualified for this year's Master National and there's still more time for more to qualify. I'm wondering how many of the 700+ will be entered. In 2010 there were 315 entries; there were a few scratches so actual starting dogs were less than 315. The 2010 MN required 3 flights. 

It is possible, perhaps likely, that more than 400 could enter this year's Master National. 

Helen


----------



## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

From the perspective of an amateur trainer who would like to run with the big dogs - lots of truth in these posts. I have a pretty talented dog that is MH and QAA but we are not competetive in the AM (yet). Another factor besides time and grounds and skill etc. is lack of opportunity to run in FT's for me. Since I work full time I am on sort of a tether and have to run trials that I can get to and be back for work on Monday. That pretty well limits me to our local club and a few others that are in a weekend's drive. I have only run two FT in the last two seasons but I made the decision to stick to HT and qualify for the MN because I am successful at that level. I would much rather play all weekend and do well rather than go home frustrated after spending all the $$ and driving 6-8 hours each way. From what I have seen in the FT world you have to be running a lot because there are so many factors and luck that work against you. Can't win if you aren't playing.


----------



## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Ten said:


> Bill's response was that yeah, she's a Top Derby dog, brag upon brag, ego, ego, ego. He didn't care to even aknowledge who I was or care to, nor my dog who was right along side his dog on the Derby list. I didn't waste my breath. No wonder he doesn't remember meeting me, it was all about him.
> 
> 
> Barb



Ive spent more than a few hours mingling in the crowd at FTs and I believe you described 90% of the people there with this sentence. 

Fact is there aren't too many die hard competitors that really give two $hits about anyone else come game day.

1st loser regards,


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

savage25xtreme said:


> Ive spent more than a few hours mingling in the crowd at FTs and I believe you described 90% of the people there with this sentence.
> 
> Fact is there aren't too many die hard competitors that really give two $hits about anyone else come game day.
> 
> 1st loser regards,


Thats true... Just like when someone asks how your dog did on a test. You start to answer and they cut you off and go on for about 10 minutes about what THEIR dog did!!


----------



## bfosmark (Jan 31, 2008)

savage25xtreme said:


> Ive spent more than a few hours mingling in the crowd at FTs and I believe you described 90% of the people there with this sentence.
> 
> Fact is there aren't too many die hard competitors that really give two $hits about anyone else come game day.
> 
> 1st loser regards,


This is true in any high level of competition sport. And frankly is why many love the very high levels of competition. I have no problem with it and hope one day to compete at that level.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> Took a little break and came in to eat lunch and read this thread while doing so. Some very good points are brought up even though It seems kind of like this started as some sort of pot stirring. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but its pretty plain to see whats going on here.
> 
> How do we ever BEGIN TO WONDER why new people dont get into the game?


Unless you want to limit the difficulty of the tests - this is reality.

The dogs, the trainers, and the handlers have all improved immensely.
If you want to create separation, the tests
must be difficult.

If you want to finish or place consistently, the commitment is high.
Period. You don't have to like it , but you are not going to change it.
It is the price of full bore hard on competition.

It is not for the faint of heart.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> Ive spent more than a few hours mingling in the crowd at FTs and I believe you described 90% of the people there with this sentence.
> 
> Fact is there aren't too many die hard competitors that really give two $hits about anyone else come game day.
> 
> 1st loser regards,


Gavin

That seems a bit harsh to me.

There are plenty of self absorbed people - of course.
But there are also plenty of people across the country that work putting on field trials like you do - or judging.

It is simply a cross section of society. There are some jerks. There are some saints. And the vast majority reside between the two extremes


----------



## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I played and coached some ball in my younger days and on game day I if I could beat you by 50 I would. It was the the same way even with other players and coaches who were friends off the field. If they could beat e by 50 they should. If it is not about winning, then why keep score?
High level competition brings out the best and worst in competitors. Just how it is if you are serious about it.
MP


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Has anyone on this thread quantified the word "failed" yet

john


----------



## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

What? Let me get another martini and then continue please.


----------



## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Unless you want to limit the difficulty of the tests - this is reality.
> 
> The dogs, the trainers, and the handlers have all improved immensely.
> If you want to create separation, the tests
> ...


Sorry Ted I was misunderstood. I was refering to all the non value added back biting stuff keeping new folks from being interested.


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Has anyone on this thread quantified the word "failed" yet
> 
> john


If you look at the OP, Lanse seems to have defined it as 2007 derby list dogs not having FC and/or AFC titles by now.
Which has been discussed by many. You know, if you actually read the thread.


----------



## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Has anyone on this thread quantified the word "failed" yet
> 
> john


No, but I am sure you will be willing to define it for us.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> If you look at the OP, Lanse seems to have defined it as 2007 derby list dogs not having FC and/or AFC titles by now.
> Which has been discussed by many. You know, if you actually read the thread.


You think he is talking about dogs that simply sqeek on to the derby list??? Perhaps  

john.


----------



## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

As one of those newbies just entering the game with their first dog, we are having a difficult time in the transition.

I can assure you it is not because of lack of effort...it is because of lack of efficiency.

My dog is first and foremost a "meat" dog. We play the games in the offseason. We train 3-4 days a week. We are limited by my knowledge of advanced training techniques. I try to train with pros when I can in order to access the right setups and gain the right experience.

Reality...I am living off the the natural talent of my dogs. Until I have the unlimited time, access and money of some amatuers; I have to rely on some luck. I'm willing to take those chances. :mrgreen:


----------



## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Mike Perry said:


> I played and coached some ball in my younger days and on game day I if I could beat you by 50 I would. It was the the same way even with other players and coaches who were friends off the field. If they could beat e by 50 they should. If it is not about winning, then why keep score?
> High level competition brings out the best and worst in competitors. Just how it is if you are serious about it.
> MP


The name mike perry rings a bell when it comes to competition. I played football at asu so I know what it means to compete at the highest level, if this is mike perry I am thinking we all should take what he says to heart! May be or may not be but for the chance it is I'll write it down on a 3x5. I re read lances post and for the folks that know him have a better understanding of Lanse as a person for the people that unfortunately do not know him, and I say unfortunately because he shares the same love and passion for the amazing dogs we have, and has the heart of a lion! The point I took from his post was we may be loosing the ideals and foundational ideas of the originators of this game. That's the problem with a written message it can mean 10 different things depending what sentence or word stuck out, and there's chance that the whole intention will be lost or misunderstood. I'm not a mind reader and especially wouldn't try and read Lanse's mind! I mentioned earlier I played football so I am accustomed to breaking into or making a team, it isn't easy and you take some knocks, you take some teasing, you take some cold shoulders but once they know your not going anywhere and are here to stay people will begin to embrace your presence. This example I give is because that is what many people experience when breaking into the field trial game, in there defense it happens but its very important to point out that specific attitude is common to any sport that involves people and competition. Its competition, and that's what people see when they make the jump from hunt test to competitive field trials. This element can be seen in any game and is common to being human and competitive! Not that's it right or I condone it but its hard to change human behavior.,lol! This point certainly wasn't Lanse's intention but I read some post talking about this element in the game and wanted to bring some light as to why. The reason we play this game is a common one and we all share it, mans best friend, let's embrace people's differences. That's what makes this game so great, it's a collection of individual's ideas and each dog is trained differently with the same objective at hand. I often see people bickering on how to force, shore break, ect. And it seems we think there is only one way to train a dog and the way we were taught is the only way, that goes against everything that makes this game great, a collection of individual thoughts, ideas, and philosophies on training dogs. That's how the breed has progressed so fast, if were we stuck with one training method we would still be running what they ran in the 50's and the dogs wouldn't progress the way they do with different training ideals! Let's embrace each others different styles in handling and training and understand it's good for the game! Remember competition reveals character, it doesn't built it!


----------



## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

I have to respond to the post about the gallery and folks in the ft game. When I was just a pup myself, fresh out of college and the proud owner of my first pup I went to a ft to check it out. I wanted to ask questions and Learn about the game. Nobody would give me the time of day. I never went back but got involved in hunt tests. Once I got some experience and some maturity, and a good dog and tried the ft game I found a lot of great people in the game. Yes there are cliques and individuals you don't care for but once I started competing regularly I found a lot of good folks willing to share advice and tips. No different than a golf club or a gun club where folks compete seriously then hang out at the clubhouse as friends.


----------



## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Gavin
> 
> That seems a bit harsh to me.
> 
> ...


Ted,

Your correct it is a cross section. I have had some great times talking with you, Lainee, Jim and Jan Burnett, Kent and Judi Carter ect... There are some great people to meet out there. I am sure there are many more I have not met. And I wish I had more time to chat with the Cimarron crew. There are also some that I just choose not to talk to.

Everyone there will fill your ear about their dog, NOT a bad thing. If you aren't proud of your dog why are you there.

Everyone is there to win; otherwise, why bother?

If/When my dog and I make it to that level you can rest assured when I step up to the line I want to smoke the competition.

I was just a little confused about what Barb was harping on Bill for loving his dogs? Wanting to win? And competing at an incredible level? Seems like the norm at a FT to me.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

savage25xtreme said:


> Ive spent more than a few hours mingling in the crowd at FTs and I believe you described 90% of the people there with this sentence.
> 
> Fact is there aren't too many die hard competitors that really give two $hits about anyone else come game day.
> 
> 1st loser regards,


There are people who are humble and there are people who are not. One doesn't have to go further than the 1st page of this forum to see that on a daily basis.


----------

