# New Rule for JH ? NO collar at all



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

The judges this weekend said that there is a new rule in JH . YOU CANNOT come to line on a flat buckle collar anymore, but can loop a lead and hold both ends. Does anyone have to official verbage to this new rule?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Haven't heard of it. It wasn't in the latest rule change, unless there was one more recent than the SH walkup clarification.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Just checked the rule book on line AGAIN, read it twice. Compared against my hard copy. It still says brought to the line on lead with a flat buckle collar. I would like to know if there have been amended rules and where they are found? 

Section 5. Junior Hunting Tests. Dogs shall be tested on a minimum of four single marks, two on land and two on
water. No more than two marks may be thrown in a series.
Judges in keeping with simulation of realistic but
relatively simple hunting situations must remember the
use of numerous decoys, islands, points of land, rolling
terrain, cover, ditch lines, wind direction, etc. are important
factors to consider when designing test scenarios to
evaluate Junior dogs as capable hunting companions.
(1) Dogs may be sent to retrieve more than once,
but only in cases of confusion as described in Chapter 4,
Section 7.
(2) *Dogs shall be steady but may be brought to the line
on leash with a flat buckle collar.* The dog is under judgement
when it leaves the holding blind. A Junior dog that
is not under control when brought to the line (jumping,
strongly tugging, etc.) even though it is on a leash shall
risk receiving a lower score in trainability including zero
in extreme cases. Dogs may be restrained gently with a
slipcord looped through the flat buckle collar, or held gently
by the flat buckle collar until sent to retrieve,
(3) A dog must retrieve to hand. Failure to do so
merits a grade of “0” in Trainability.
(4) A dog may be encouraged to hunt, but excessive
noise in encouraging the dog suggests a lack of hunting
desire and a low grade in Perseverance is required.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Maybe Francis or Kathy would like to share with us where that came from?

/Paul


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Just left a message at AKC will let you know what I find. Anybody have Fran's contact info?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

/Paul you are just wantin to find out if we can use a choke!! come on , fess up....


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> /Paul you are just wantin to find out if we can use a choke!! come on , fess up....


 Sure be nice to have an answer after all these years

/Paul


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

They said it went into effect on Sunday 9/1 . JH was Sat so we still used the buckle collar.....


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Fabulous. 

I don't recall reading this in any emails or on-line. I assume(don't say it) that AKC will be most timely in updating their website and making note of these changes? 

Good news Cantrell--you can now use the lead as a choke collar~~ BRILLIANT!!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

NOPE sorry Nancy , can't use it like a slip...only looped around the neck.... I just went back and read the minutes from July and did not see it. Maybe from August which is not posted yet? OR MAYBE the judges were mistaken....


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> They said it went into effect on Sunday 9/1 . JH was Sat so we still used the buckle collar.....


Who said?

/Paul


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Pals said:


> Fabulous.
> 
> I don't recall reading this in any emails or on-line. I assume(don't say it) that AKC will be most timely in updating their website and making note of these changes?
> 
> Good news Cantrell--you can now use the lead as a choke collar~~ BRILLIANT!!


The AKC is not that good at updating their web site, but they are good at getting the rules changes out to clubs. The last changes of which I am aware came out in late July and took effect on September 1. This was the clarification on the walkup in SH and the requirement for judges to keep their sheets. I haven't seen anything from them since that.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Fran and Kathy said, the judges!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Judges wouldn't make up their own rules would they?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

LOL Wellll ........


I hope not.....they may have been wrong , which is why I am asking if anyone heard anything similar ....


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

It would have had to been included in the addendum with the walk up. Three clubs I know of shared the AKCs rule Change on walk up. Can't imagine they wouldn't have contacted clubs for such a significant rule such as no flat collars in JH.


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

DoubleHaul said:


> The AKC is not that good at updating their web site, *but they are good at getting the rules changes out to clubs*. The last changes of which I am aware came out in late July and took effect on September 1. This was the clarification on the walkup in SH and the requirement for judges to keep their sheets. I haven't seen anything from them since that.


I don't know about that. I learned about the Sr walk up rule changes by reading it here on RTF, didn't recieve anything from AKC as a club.

Just got the packet for our test this weekend, and it still has the printing of the 2012 rule book. With the $400-500 we send them per test (dog fees, test fee, etc.) it sure would be nice to get a rule book that's only two or three changes behind.


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## crawfordw2 (Jan 8, 2013)

Ron in Portland said:


> I don't know about that. I learned about the Sr walk up rule changes by reading it here on RTF, didn't recieve anything from AKC as a club.


What is the SH walk up rule change?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Bridget Bodine said:


> The judges this weekend said that there is a new rule in JH . YOU CANNOT come to line on a flat buckle collar anymore, but can loop a lead and hold both ends. Does anyone have to official verbage to this new rule?


I'd have a very hard time believing this is true...


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

This would certainly make the Junior Hunter Stake worth watching now!

The Circus is in town!!!!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Maybe It's to give us Brits a chance since we have been doing non slip for years?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

polmaise said:


> Maybe It's to give us Brits a chance since we have been doing non slip for years?


Perhaps with all the British Labs entering JH, they decided there was no need to hold the collar--just rely on the dogs' lack of drive?


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## labraiser (Feb 5, 2004)

I think it's a matter of the judges being miss informed or wishing that was the rule. I have not seen anything official


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Judges sign a agreement to know the rules and uphold them. 

/ Paul


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I've never run an AKC test but this doesn't pass the smell test for me.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> The judges this weekend said that there is a new rule in JH . YOU CANNOT come to line on a flat buckle collar anymore, but can loop a lead and hold both ends. Does anyone have to official verbage to this new rule?


And we should believe this because.....?????????????.........I call BS. Would have heard about it via thr RTF express long time ago.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

This is straight out of the AKC manual...

(2) Dogs shall be steady but may be brought to the line on leash with a flat buckle collar. The dog is under judge- ment when it leaves the holding blind. A Junior dog that is not under control when brought to the line (jumping, strongly tugging, etc.) even though it is on a leash shall risk receiving a lower score in trainability including zero in extreme cases. Dogs may be restrained gently with a slipcord looped through the flat buckle collar, or held gently by the flat buckle collar until sent to retrieve,


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

Bridget Bodine said:


> The judges this weekend said that there is a new rule in JH . YOU CANNOT come to line on a flat buckle collar anymore, but can loop a lead and hold both ends. Does anyone have to official verbage to this new rule?


I was at a HT last weekend and at junior part of the time. Collars were used and nothing was mentioned of any rule in effect or pending. Like others, I have heard nothing about this change to the rules nor can I find anything in print to reference it. Our club was not notified of any changes in junior and I spent most of the year with someone on the advisory committee, nothing ever mentioned. Assuming no one at the test had heard of this change, nothing was said to challenge these judges? Like the HT committee asking for their proof or source of information since it doesn't exist in the rule book?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> Perhaps with all the British Labs entering JH, they decided there was no need to hold the collar--just rely on the dogs' lack of drive?


Quiet though?...


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## djansma (Aug 26, 2004)

Is it april first?


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

crawfordw2 said:


> What is the SH walk up rule change?


They changed Chapter 5, section 6, to say that there "shall" be a walkup, instead of the previous language that said there "should" be a walkup. Some interpreted the "should" to mean they had a choice, and chose not to do a walk up in their Senior test.

Here's the link to the AKC changes.
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/f4c3d37d#/f4c3d37d/46 

And here's the link to the RTF conversation on it last month.
http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...pproved-Effective-9-1-2013&highlight=AKC+rule 

The rule changes also included info about requiring judges to keep their scoring sheets for 60 days.

Nothing in there about any Junior collar rule changes.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

polmaise, why the jabs?

The discussion is about a JUNIOR hunt test.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Judges sign a agreement to know the rules and uphold them.
> 
> / Paul


Ding ding Ding!!! A winner. Add that HT committees are responsible for making sure that tests are within the rules. The real ones, not something that a judge conjured up. And, handlers have a responsibility to know the rules and question judges and the HT committee when the rules are violated.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

The JH was on Sat , they said the rule started on Sun, 9/1 . I am just relaying what two judges said at the handlers meeting / test scenario. I along with many others said "Excuse me? " but the judges said "Honest , tomorrow (Sun 9/1) the rule takes effect"
So I was not in a position to call them out on it , as they were not breaking a rule.......


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

For what it is worth , *I *​ do know the rules, and I do pay attention . Just relaying what we told ....


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

The judges should be reported to the akc judge police.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I just can't believe this. Could they have been pulling everyone's leg? Maybe to give the next day's judges something special to deal with?

Dirty trick, if so--Junior has enough nerves and drama.

Plus, someone's going to be playing mind games on RTF for years to come...


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

There was no JH the next day. The same judges were the SH judges on Sun


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> There was no JH the next day. The same judges were the SH judges on Sun


I just have to believe they were messing with you...


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Plus, someone's going to be playing mind games on RTF for years to come...


They wouldn't.

:twisted: :twisted:


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bridget got punked Bridget got punked. lol


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Guys, in order for this to work, you can't just come out and tell her!,,,,,,rookies

/Paul


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

polmaise said:


> Quiet though?...


Glad you have a good sense of humor. How did you know that Doublehaul has vocal dogs?


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## duckdogs167 (Apr 23, 2012)

I judge JH and SH an keep up with rule changes and have not seen or heard of this rule change. I don't believe this is a rule change. I would have gotten Hunt Test Committee involve as soon as I heard the this. Because they can call AKC Rep for their area anytime Monday-Sunday.


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## Gary Wayne Abbott I (Dec 21, 2003)

Every one seems to forget it is ultimately up to the club, it's members and most directly the Hunt Committee to ensure that the judges comply with the AKC rules and safety. 

From the regulations and Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers;

Section 14. Hunting Test Committee. A club that has been granted permission by The American Kennel Club to hold a licensed or member Hunting Test shall appoint a Hunting Test Committee which will have com- plete responsibility for the planning and conducting of the event. The Committee shall be comprised of at least five members of the club and may include the Hunting Test Secretary, but the Hunting Test Secretary shall not be designated as the Hunting Test Committee Chairman. A majority of the Hunting Test Committee must be pres- ent during an AKC-licensed or member club Hunting Test. In the event of absence of Hunting Test Committee Members, the Chairman or an officiating officer shall appoint sufficient Committee Members in order to insure compliance with this Section.
The Hunting Test Committee and Hunting Test Secretary shall be held responsible for compliance with all of the applicable Rules and Regulations for Hunting Tests, except those coming under the sole jurisdiction of the Judges, and must provide themselves with copies of the latest editions of these books.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

She just said it, there was no junior at that test on Sunday and the judges were making a joke because the next day they were judging senior so no collar would be allowed........


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

OOOooo burn! They made that one stick for 3 days!!! Who were those judges? Kim, we need to get them. That beats the party favor kazoo goose call I saw last weekend. And all this time, I thought yankees didn't have sense of humor.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

WELL ......I suppose that is possible...I will take my lumps.;-)..uh , yea Thanks Tim! I would swear that these judges were not kidding though, THEY could have been wrong though...


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

yellow machine said:


> Glad you have a good sense of humor. How did you know that Doublehaul has vocal dogs?


My dogs are not vocal. They are highly trained to hunt Fulvous Tree Ducks, which everyone knows are hunted fair chase. If the dogs are not vocal, you cannot know when you have treed one.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Maybe we've all been punked? EE doesn't show Bridget entered in anything last weekend, LOL. Unless there are AKC events that don't use EE?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

NOPE sorry Pam ....I was at LRC. HT/FT Elkton , Md............. JH,SH and derby


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

But this is getting everyone in a dither!! Maybe I should come up with something better next time...


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## D&S Retrievers (Jul 2, 2008)

I can attest that Bridget was in Elkton, MD at the Labrador Retriever Club test, juniors, seniors & derby!


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Sorry, Bridget, I was trying to be funny (the whole "punked" thing.) What I was really doing was trying to see who the judges were... searched on your name and didn't come up with anything. Still doesn't come up, but I found it searching for AKC hunt tests in MD on the weekend in question. Maybe that kind of info just doesn't show up until the results are finalized...

Hey, you got 6 pages out of it!!!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Got an answer from Lisa at AKC.org via email.....
"Nothing has changed in relation to collars for JH dogs." 

There ya go! I was punked !! Sh!t I hate it when that happens!!!


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

I was at a Junior test a year ago when two judges who clearly didn't know the rules told handlers all the dogs HAD to be brought to the line on a slip lead. Slip leads are disallowed in Junior. That said, I don't get why they're disallowed but the rule is the rule and most there didn't have slip leads so they had to loop their leads through the handles to make them.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

My co-judge and I hooked a boatload of JH folks after pulling a rulebook out during our 1st series scenario to confirm that everyone was aware of the just-released Supplement which allowed us the discretion to include ".... _a junior land or water blind not to exceed 50 yds_". Someone had conveniently left a piece of orange tape out in the middle of the field away from our marks which only further sucker-ized most in the crowd. Jaws dropped (pro's and ams), mumbles ensued. Our point, we soon explained since we could barely keep a straight face, was to *Know Thy Rulebook*! Don't be afraid to ask questions or call bs!

I can assure you that if I'm ever in a judging situation where a significant rules change was just then being "announced", I'll be packing written proof.


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## LukesMom (Sep 8, 2009)

Just checked with Jerry Mann, Performance Director. Absolutely not true.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Can I use a choke chain in junior?

/Paul


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Can I use a choke chain in junior?
> 
> /Paul


Depends on whom you are planning to choke, and whether there is a quiet back road to dump the body.


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## djansma (Aug 26, 2004)

Sure you can use a choke chain up to the last holding blind and than a flat buckle collar to the line


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## Pupknuckle (Aug 15, 2008)

Bridget was at FLRC HT this weekend. I know she was entered because I judged her in Senior. There was a double Junior and Double Senior. She did not run under me Sunday. I guess she had enough of me on Saturday?


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