# Best trainer in the South???? OMG from the new Garden & Gun



## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Robert Milner
Duckhill Kennels
Somerville, Tennessee

A retired U.S. Air Force lieutenant colonel, Robert Milner is no stranger to discipline. But duck hunters who pay a visit to his rural kennels might be surprised by what they don’t find: not an e-collar in sight. Milner is a stalwart advocate of positive-reinforcement training for gundogs.


Cuckavalda Monty (Tex), a five-year-old British Labrador retriever. (Photo by Andrew Hyslop)

Beginning in the 1960s, Milner trained thousands of dogs using standard compulsion methods (shorthand for aversive training techniques such as e-collars). His turning point occurred following the 9/11 attacks, when FEMA dispatched the Tennessee-based search and rescue team Task Force One to the Pentagon crash site to find survivors in the rubble. The rescue dogs’ performance proved disappointing, and Milner got the call to overhaul the training regimen. He opted for a new paradigm inspired by the U.S. Navy’s Marine Mammal Program and the principles of operant conditioning, a form of positive reinforcement training in which a correct response is rewarded while a wrong response is ignored. And he made another key change as well. “The dogs were lacking in hunting persistence,” he says. “They didn’t do well, because they were trained and maintained on a constant schedule of reinforcement.” Instead, Milner employed a variable schedule, similar to what happens in nature. “Studies have shown that a lion is successful on about one stalk out of five,” he explains. “It keeps the lion hunting.”


Robert Milner cozies up with his pupils. (Photos by Andrew Hyslop)

He was able to reduce prep time for the task force’s dogs from eighteen months to six, and if it could work for rescue dogs, he was sure it could work for bird dogs as well. By now, he was a frequent visitor to the United Kingdom, where field-trial handlers prized British Labrador retrievers for both their hunting drive and their gentle disposition and receptiveness toward soft-handed training regimens. They were such a good fit that Milner has since become the only American breeder of British Labrador retrievers from the original lineage of the fifth Duke of Buccleuch of the 1830s.



“With punishment, whether it’s with a choke collar or a shock collar, it makes the dog want to run from you,” he says. “We have to adopt more humane ways of training our best friends.”—duckhillkennels.com


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, bless their hearts, and their stupid heads.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Him again. Same old, tired, marketing BS.
Geez...if you ignore bad behavior like, say...not getting in the water..aren't you actually rewarding that bad behavior?? lol


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Sondra, you best lay off the Cuh'nel or he's a comin' up Delmarva and training some of them Chincoteague dolphins to make inland assaults on Snow Hill! Training 'em up on land, of course, and by positive reinforcement - riding in the back of, you know, Range Rovers...We might have to commandeer N**t's tank to defend our training honor up here!

G&G, I would've thunk better - but hey, maybe the better title would be Grits, British Bullsh*t & Gullibility

MG


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Telling people what they "WANT TO HEAR" is always a great marketing ploy.......Jim


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

jd6400 said:


> Telling people what they "WANT TO HEAR" is always a great marketing ploy.......Jim


Ain't that the truth.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

To anyone who has served in the armed forces/military, does it offend you that marketing ploys such as Mr. Milner's (or anyone else for that matter) use of time served in the military as a way to gain sympathy or a false sense of credibility?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

> The rescue dogs’ performance proved disappointing,


According to who? Grrr....


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

msdaisey said:


> ...the only American breeder of British Labrador retrievers from the original lineage of the fifth Duke of Buccleuch of the 1830s....


I'd like to see a pedigree that goes back to 1830.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Wish I could tag Bubba.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Keith Stroyan said:


> I'd like to see a pedigree that goes back to 1830.


You'd have to buy one of the Cuh'nel's "canoe Labs" to get it - note that they were called "bathtub sculling Labs" back then...

Sculling Labs - not to be confused with the Cuh'nel's particular brand of skullduggery, er, marketing.

MG


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

FOM said:


> According to who? Grrr....


Also this..


> “With punishment, whether it’s with a choke collar or a shock collar, it makes the dog want to run from you,” he says


Main problem we have, dogs are so excited to go train, they all try to jump in one hole on the truck.
Do they not know, that is not supposed to happen?? So stupid. Would not happen if they had a pedigree back to 1830.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

"beginning in 1960s Milner trained thousands".........holy crapoli!!!! Do the math on a per mth basis....then come back to reality........that's when I stopped reading.......Jim


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## John Gush (Jun 19, 2015)

I am following the Hillman program. My BLM is a little over five months old and we are working on the traffic cop portion. He sits and his tail starts waging when I pull out the E-collar, cause he know we are going to train. 

So much for running away in fear!

Some updated photos!


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

jd6400 said:


> "beginning in 1960s Milner trained thousands".........holy crapoli!!!! Do the math on a per mth basis....then come back to reality........that's when I stopped reading.......Jim


Well, it has been a while since we have read about the marine mammal program.
Now we have lions too!! Awesome.


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Post #7 YES!!!!. 30 plus years of active duty

Ronan Bill


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Well, it has been a while since we have read about the marine mammal program.


My intel is, he's working on a snakehead training programme now - imported snakeheads from British Hong Kong, of course.

MG


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

crackerd said:


> My intel is, he's working on a snakehead training programme now - imported snakeheads from British Hong Kong, of course.
> 
> MG


Ha. Good one...


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Bill McKnight said:


> Post #7 YES!!!!. 30 plus years of active duty
> 
> Ronan Bill



Thank you for your service Mr.McKnight...Jim


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Peter Balzer said:


> To anyone who has served in the armed forces/military, does it offend you that marketing ploys such as Mr. Milner's (or anyone else for that matter) use of time served in the military as a way to gain sympathy or a false sense of credibility?


YES! 27 years active duty USAF


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

“Studies have shown that a lion is successful on about one stalk out of five,” he explains. “It keeps the lion hunting.”

Or those four misses keep the lion hungry. Just a guess.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

You're all jealous cause you're lousy bs'ers. Good for Milner, Good for Cesar Milan, Good for Fred Hassen. I wish I had their imaginations and cojones.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Gary M said:


> YES! 27 years active duty USAF


Thank you also Gary!!!Jim


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Gary M said:


> YES! 27 years active duty USAF


Thank you (and Mr. McKnight and others who might respond to the OP's question) for your service. The flip side of "using time served in the military as a way to gain sympathy or a false sense credibility" is somebody who flies under the radar and who in my opinion goes about it in a more credible and certainly more believable way: Dublem Gundogs and Maj. (Ret.) Bud Clouse, USAF.

MG


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## RJG (Feb 18, 2005)

Migillicutty said:


> Well, bless their hearts, and their stupid heads.


I didn't know whether to croak or die laughing when I read this article in Garden and Gun. I couldn't have said it any better than Migillicutty.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

I never served. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once. Does that give me the same credentials? Oh, and I was fortunate enough to train dogs and then US Marines and British Soldiers to handle Retrievers trained for bomb detection work.

Interestingly the Brits sent experienced skilled dog trainers and handlers to learn our "American" ways. While they unfortunately saw demonstrations of excessive force and e-collar use, they also saw how effective e-collars can be. One British soldier went so far as to purchase an e-collar with his own money for personal use.

Should I market these training techniques and "American Retrievers" to the Brits?

Good dogs are good dogs. Good training is good training. Positive only is.........stupid.

John


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Lions and tigers and dolphins, oh my. I have seen the light and I am saved. See the classifieds for ecollars for sale, no longer needed. But if my friends don't see me for a few months, come and save me, my dogs will likely be in revolt and holding me hostage, demanding to trade my stockpile of cookies and tennis balls in exchange for the ecollars, so we can get back to real field work, the kind they love, that stretches their bodies and their minds. 

Not terribly gentleman-like to have to put others' methods down to sell their own snake oil, but hey, any press is good press for a marketer, the truth be damned.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Talking about the Air Force. I believe must soldiers from all branches train to be dog handlers at Lockland Air Force Base. I think. I was in armor (tanks). Was scared **** list of military guard dogs. Did not go near them.


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## jimbo (Dec 14, 2015)

I was searching on the internet and came across this forum and was amazed how you guys act towards people(not just this thread and not just this person) I did read the article and didn't see anything wrong with it.
What is wrong with a successful, positive reinforcement program for gundogs? Are you saying it is not possible? What do you base your "opinions" on? Why is it so popular with most other animal training programs and not in the gundog sector? seems that it is popular in a lot of "non-gundog" training groups.(agility, guide dogs, etc)


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## jimbo (Dec 14, 2015)

One more question since I am new to this forum- Do you guys and gals mainly run in trials or is this forum have a lot of hunters too? I was reading threw some other posts and was curious....


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

jimbo said:


> What is wrong with a successful, positive reinforcement program for gundogs? Are you saying it is not possible? What do you base your "opinions" on? Why is it so popular with most other animal training programs and not in the gundog sector? seems that it is popular in a lot of "non-gundog" training groups.(agility, guide dogs, etc)


I'll take a quick run at answering this. I think most of the users of this site take issue with the "Best Trainer in the South" statement. Also I think most would debate your use of the word "successful". Successful how? (ie earning a profit? He's good at that!, passing high level hunt tests?, running and successful in field trials?). The users of this forum are basing their "opinions" on results. Period. Review the results in on entry express and retriever results of the dogs trained by Mr. Milner, if you can find them, compared to a more traditional ecollar method and the range of success had by those dogs. There is no comparison.

Many guide dogs that are worth anything are also trained using an ecollar. 

This forum, in my experience, has a wide variety of users across many performance venues. Many of the users are also avid hunters, hunt testers, trainers, trialers, with nearly every breed imaginable represented. The trouble with this forum, and any online forum, is you still have to separate wheat from chaff when it comes to opinions and comments.

Welcome to RTF Jimbo!


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

OK I'll chime in: Not defending the article, but defending Robert Milner whom I have never met but has helped me initially with my dog training thru his early books.
The Article: Who really gives a s**t...... Magazines need content.....Look at the DU rag!

I had a BLM come thru here about 4 years ago which came out of his kennel. Don't know much about the British breeding but he was out of a Brackenbird Minnow X Torngat Island Dream Girl.
Early training showed me this animal had "IT".
Without all the letters prior to the AKC name I bred this male to my SH and got 3 pups. 1 female I kept and I think this might be the best dog ever. Great eyes, long marking dog, Straight as an arrow out and back on marks and blinds, unbelievable attitude towards the game, loves all dogs even those alpha bitches. Trained without an e collar, but enforced with one.

I guess my point is, don't throw Robert Milner under the bus, he has done nothing wrong....If a magazine wants to embellish his credentials so be it, but the man has done GOOD BY ALL OF US.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

mostly garden. not much gun.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I guess my point is, don't throw Robert Milner under the bus, he has done nothing wrong....If a magazine wants to embellish his credentials so be it, but the man has done GOOD BY ALL OF US.


I also think its the writer of the article that may view Robert in this light. I did an interview with a news organization,, it was then after reading it that I found out I was legendary and another said I was world renown. My training buddies and some club members got a kick out of that one. I no longer believe much I read or watch dealing with the news. They sensationalize everything. I'm sure Robert is good at what he does. At least they said he was the best in the south instead of the best in the universe.

Pete


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

but the man has done GOOD BY ALL OF US.

How is this?


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Thomas D said:


> but the man has done GOOD BY ALL OF US.
> 
> How is this?


Have you read his books?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

No and I don't intend to.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Terry - I get what you are saying. And maybe everyone could take one positive thing away from what Milner has to offer, from a training perspective. But running a glorified puppy mill is NOT good (IMO). 30 plus litters a year....


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Tobias said:


> Terry - I get what you are saying. And maybe everyone could take one positive thing away from what Milner has to offer, from a training perspective. But running a glorified puppy mill is NOT good (IMO). 30 plus litters a year....


30+ litters per year? WOW! hard to believe....

I do find *some* of Milner's ideas useful... For example, his book Retriever Training For the Duck Hunter sold me on force breaking back in the 1990s:
_Chapter 6_
_"Do you want your pup to be one who always delivers to hand, never drops a bird,__never exhibits a hard mouth, never refuses to retrieve, is super persistent in his hunt for __that difficult bird, is exceptionally easy to steady, and a model student for blinds and __hand signals?

__If your answer is yes to all the above, then I have just the program for you. It’s __called the conditioned retrieve. Just as we conditioned the controlled response of __coming, heeling, sitting, and staying, so we also will condition the responses of __retrieving. This process *will make an average dog good and a good dog, great.
*
__This conditioning of the retrieve response will begin with teaching pup to “turn __off” an uncomfortable pinch on his foot by fetching a wooden dowel from your hand. __Then, by successive approximation, this response will be extended to the point that pup is __fetching 16 feet to right or left on command and a hand signal. He’ll also be fetching __with direction and purpose 16 feet on a line. __Thus, this conditioned retrieve process in addition to its other benefits will give us __the basic elements of blinds and hand signals.

__To some it may seem a bit strange to condition the retrieve, something that pup __already does, but it’s really quite logical. Pup probably already knows how to sit on __command before we conditioned the sit response. However, prior to conditioning, he __probably only sat on command when he felt like it. After the conditioning, he sits __consistently on command. The conditioning gave the handler vastly greater control of the __response.
_
_We want this same control of the retrieve response. Although pup is going to __retrieve at any opportunity by instinct, the handler, having more control of the retriever __response, is going to make it much easier to program pup on when not to retrieve. The __conditioned retrieve is going to make pup dramatically easier to steady. The relatively __mild stimulus we use to condition the retrieve is going to eliminate a whole lot of the __force and trauma traditionally associated with steadying pup. The conditioned retrieve __process is going to result in a pup who is 70% steady simply by virtue of this process._
_
Additionally, this program is going to give us a pup more amenable to learning to stop on __a whistle for hand signals._
_If all the above isn’t enough, the conditioned retrieve is going to give us much __more. It’s going to channel pup’s excess energy into retrieving by focusing his intensity __on getting that bird. He’ll spend less time sniffing bushes and more time actively seeking __the bird. It will speed up the lazy retriever and temper the wild Indian. It results in a pup __who is retrieving for you rather than for himself.
_
_It produces a pup who doesn’t drop birds in embarrassing places, such as on the __other side of the river. It produces a pup who always delivers tenderly to hand, and one __who never develops a hard mouth, because the conditioned retrieve transfers the __ownership of the bird from pup to you, the handler. Last but not least, the pup with __conditioned retrieve, on exiting the water, will generally not shake until you’ve taken the __bird. Thus, as I’ll describe in the water training program, we have a mechanism to __promote a relatively “less wet” situation for the best hunt._
_
__In short, I think *the conditioned retrieve is the best thing since nickel beer*. If __there is a magic trick for retriever training, this is it. The *conditioned retrieve is magic* in __the transformation that it induces in pup"_

The rest of the chapter is 48 lessons on the gradual process of force breaking...so in the 1990s Milner's writing was more in tune with the "RTF culture". I do find *some* of his positive training aspects useful for puppies, but I am not a positive-only trainer. I am not defending his current ideas, just providing some historical context.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Milner jumped on the "positive training" bandwagon. Fine, whatever, who cares, whether he believes it or just saw a good marketing opportunity, even if he contradicts his earlier methods, so what, everyone evolves their methods (not slamming your post, MissSkeeter, I think it is enlightening). It's the lies and slamming of our dogs and our methods that blows the gaskets and garners the dislike. Some don't like his breeding practices either. Personal opinion there, I have no idea if he's got the staff and facility to care for 30 litters a year. What I do care about is the bad press he gives our training methods. Much of what he spews about our dogs and training is nothing less than deliberate exaggeration, if not outright lies, and just gives a little more ammo to the "antis". Here's this former force trainer who is now denouncing the inhumane force training methods, oh my! Milner done good by all of us? Not hardly, in today's PC climate. Every time I turn around there are articles, online, magazines, TV, about positive training methods, which is fine, I don't care if someone clicker trains, but every one of them seems to have to target force training as evil, brutal, inhumane, and those that employ force training are savages, by inference, and surely don't love their dogs. It's insulting and ridiculous and ignorant, on their part. Like vegans trying to take my meat away. LEAVE MY STUFF ALONE, I'm not stopping your way of life, leave mine alone. 

And hey Terry Marshall, please explain what "not ecollar trained but ecollar enforced" means? How does one enforce with an ecollar if one has not trained the dog to the ecollar? If one is enforcing with the ecollar, does this not rather imply that whatever methods you initially used to train the dog weren't fully satisfactory and required use of ecollar to get the results you want? If so, how does this help your defense of Milner's no collar/no force methods?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Pete said:


> At least they said he was the best in the south instead of the best in the universe.


Off the top of my head, I came up with more than my fingers and toes could count who are better trainers in the South than Milner. Haven't read his books but have seen dogs he has trained run. Maybe the books get you a better result


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Rainmaker said:


> Milner jumped on the "positive training" bandwagon. Fine, whatever, who cares, whether he believes it or just saw a good marketing opportunity, even if he contradicts his earlier methods, so what, everyone evolves their methods (not slamming your post, MissSkeeter, I think it is enlightening). It's the lies and slamming of our dogs and our methods that blows the gaskets and garners the dislike. Some don't like his breeding practices either. Personal opinion there, I have no idea if he's got the staff and facility to care for 30 litters a year. What I do care about is the bad press he gives our training methods. Much of what he spews about our dogs and training is nothing less than deliberate exaggeration, if not outright lies, and just gives a little more ammo to the "antis". Here's this former force trainer who is now denouncing the inhumane force training methods, oh my! Milner done good by all of us? Not hardly, in today's PC climate. Every time I turn around there are articles, online, magazines, TV, about positive training methods, which is fine, I don't care if someone clicker trains, but every one of them seems to have to target force training as evil, brutal, inhumane, and those that employ force training are savages, by inference, and surely don't love their dogs. It's insulting and ridiculous and ignorant, on their part. Like vegans trying to take my meat away. LEAVE MY STUFF ALONE, I'm not stopping your way of life, leave mine alone.
> 
> *And hey Terry Marshall, please explain what "not ecollar trained but ecollar enforced" means? How does one enforce with an ecollar if one has not trained the dog to the ecollar? If one is enforcing with the ecollar, does this not rather imply that whatever methods you initially used to train the dog weren't fully satisfactory and required use of ecollar to get the results you want? If so, how does this help your defense of Milner's no collar/no force methods*?


First off I never said I was defending RM's "no collar/no force methods"
Not collar trained but collar enforced simply means we teach a command like SIT by physically pushing the butt to the ground and give praise upon a successful completion. We teach a command like HERE with a long lead rope, with praise upon a successful completion and so on with all the other basic commands. Once the animal has a solid understanding of these commands a collar is introduced as we never want to give a command that we can't enforce. For example, once off lead and the dog is into something more interesting than you and doesn't quickly respond to your HERE command you have an invisible rope by way of your collar.
It's not rocket science, but some people just like to ..........:razz:


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Terry Marshall said:


> First off I never said I was defending RM's "no collar/no force methods"
> Not collar trained but collar enforced simply means we teach a command like SIT by physically pushing the butt to the ground and give praise upon a successful completion. We teach a command like HERE with a long lead rope, with praise upon a successful completion and so on with all the other basic commands. Once the animal has a solid understanding of these commands a collar is introduced as we never want to give a command that we can't enforce. For example, once off lead and the dog is into something more interesting than you and doesn't quickly respond to your HERE command you have an invisible rope by way of your collar.
> It's not rocket science, but some people just like to ..........:razz:


So. By ecollar enforced you just mean conventional ecollar trained, by the way that anyone I know knows it. So. What does "ecollar trained" mean to you, since you stated not ecollar trained just ecollar enforced (which would normally be called collar-conditioned/CC)?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Off the top of my head, I came up with more than my fingers and toes could count who are better trainers in the South than Milner. Haven't read his books but have seen dogs he has trained run. Maybe the books get you a better result


That was a figure of speech,,,showing the media had at least a minimum of restraint. There is no such thing as the best trainer. There may be "among the best" Also he was talking about gun dogs. And it is impossible to know who the best gun dog trainer is and more importantly ,who cares,, really if you think about it

Also the dogs you have seen him train being ran,,,just might of had a very poor handler who didn't maintain his work,,its possible ,,, I got in a dog trained by a very popular and well respected trainer a while back. The dog had problems. I,, in no way even considered it was the trainers fault,,but rather to much dog for the owners experience coupled with the personality of the dog, and a lack of maintenance. It was a litter mate to an FC,,, to many variables to assign blame.

Pete


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Kim said it very well. No decent trainer/breeder needs to lie about American field dogs as far as training and thats what Milner continues to write about in articles to suck people in, and that he does. He says they have hard mouthes and need to be force fetched to retrieve, and yet why do non-FF 8 weeks old puppies naturally retrieve which is inate. That is why he is in disfavor.



> So. By ecollar enforced you just mean conventional ecollar trained, by the way that anyone I know knows it. So. What does "ecollar trained" mean to you, since you stated not ecollar trained just ecollar enforced (which would normally be called collar-conditioned/CC)?


Maybe he means cold burns for anything that the dog does that the trainer doesn't like


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

MissSkeeter said:


> 30+ litters per year? WOW! hard to believe....



Yes, When I was looking for a breeder of 'british line' labs, I checked out his website. He has, I think, 10 breedings listed right now that are all on the ground or due this winter. Last spring I think there were more, and that doesn't include summer breedings either. 

How can he KNOW each of those dogs? How can he surmise who will be the best potential stud for a particular bitch? 
Of course, then there are his 'legacy' labs - not sure what that means, other than that the word is a great selling point for prospective buyers and a way to ask for more money.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

OMG - Canoe Labrador???!!!!! - WTF??


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

jimbo said:


> > What is wrong with a successful, positive reinforcement program for gundogs?
> 
> 
> All successful programs for gundogs incorporate primarily positive reinforcement.
> ...


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

kennel maiden said:


> OMG - Canoe Labrador???!!!!! - WTF??



That too! LOL!!! I know of at least one of them up here, in AK.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> OMG - Canoe Labrador???!!!!! - WTF??


L, beyond "canoe Labs," bless his meddling soul, Milner's the venerable breeder who "bequeathed" (how bequeathed *redacted* per official request) [email protected] Kennels to the "other" meretricious chap who peddles "[email protected]'$ Gund0g" Labs by the hundreds - that bogus "British" label perpetuated by the FTChs and FTWs he buys (titles included) for stud. Also claims to be the only Yank to have run British FTs, more hooey and huckstering. Think Gun & Garden a few months ago was billing *him* as the best trainer in "the Deep South," with emphasis on the "deep" as to what anybody with half a notion about retriever or gundog training knows would translate into "Shovel faster, it's getting deep."...

MG


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## MWG (May 8, 2008)

Tobias said:


> then there are his 'legacy' labs - not sure what that means, other than that the word is a great selling point for prospective buyers and a way to ask for more money.


here ya go.. he explains what a "Legacy Lab" is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVwwweSQnhE


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Rainmaker said:


> Milner jumped on the "positive training" bandwagon. Fine, whatever, who cares, whether he believes it or just saw a good marketing opportunity, even if he contradicts his earlier methods, so what, everyone evolves their methods (not slamming your post, MissSkeeter, I think it is enlightening). It's the lies and slamming of our dogs and our methods that blows the gaskets and garners the dislike. Some don't like his breeding practices either. Personal opinion there, I have no idea if he's got the staff and facility to care for 30 litters a year. What I do care about is the bad press he gives our training methods. Much of what he spews about our dogs and training is nothing less than deliberate exaggeration, if not outright lies, and just gives a little more ammo to the "antis". Here's this former force trainer who is now denouncing the inhumane force training methods, oh my! Milner done good by all of us? Not hardly, in today's PC climate. Every time I turn around there are articles, online, magazines, TV, about positive training methods, which is fine, I don't care if someone clicker trains, but every one of them seems to have to target force training as evil, brutal, inhumane, and those that employ force training are savages, by inference, and surely don't love their dogs. It's insulting and ridiculous and ignorant, on their part. Like vegans trying to take my meat away. LEAVE MY STUFF ALONE, I'm not stopping your way of life, leave mine alone.
> 
> And hey Terry Marshall, please explain what "not ecollar trained but ecollar enforced" means? How does one enforce with an ecollar if one has not trained the dog to the ecollar? If one is enforcing with the ecollar, does this not rather imply that whatever methods you initially used to train the dog weren't fully satisfactory and required use of ecollar to get the results you want? If so, how does this help your defense of Milner's no collar/no force methods?


Yes I agree with you!

..my point was I try to learn from everyone, even if I do not agree with their "program". And Milner's writing in the 1990s had some good stuff. His chapter on force breaking is more detailed than most with good rationale.

For anyone that is interested, you can download his book "Retriever Training For The Duck Hunter" as a pdf here: http://www.duckhillkennels.com/libraries/PDFs/RetrieverTrainingForTheDuckHunter.pdf
I do like his chapter 6 on force breaking...

Milner is more than anti-ecollar, his writing has lack of respect of field trials and hunt tests.
Since it we have short days in Alaska, I think I'll fan the flames (hope nobody blows a gasket) with some bizarre Milner quotes from his website:
"_The American hunter is becoming much more aware that *good field trials dogs frequently make poor hunting dogs*. The population of field trial dogs contains far too many dogs that are high in reactivity and low in impulse control."_ 

" _Since field trial titles drive breeding selection and national field trial titles put it in overdrive, the whining dog was bred a good bit. You can suppress an individual dog’s behavior, but that does not suppress the inheritance of the trait by his puppies. Because of the stature involved, a national field trial winning sire will be bred quite frequently, and he will produce a large number of puppies that carry his genetic makeup, including the propensity to whine when excited."
__
__"Another common retriever gundog fault is an inability to sit still in a high temptation environment. When guns start shooting and birds start falling, this dog starts bouncing and can’t sit still. In field trial dogs this is typically manifested as creeping. When the shooting starts and the birds are falling the dog starts bouncing and creeping forward. One of the best creepers that I have ever seen won a National Amateur Field Trial in the early 70s."
_
"_Over the last thirty years the dog that is *high in reactivity and low in impulse control has spread prolifically in the field Labrador gene pool.* With respect to the field trial Labrador gene pool, there is an elephant in the room. The elephant’s name is style or drive or straight line. When you next want to select a gundog puppy you would be well served to look behind the elephant. Look past the pedigrees and personally meet the puppy’s parents. If the parents don’t behave the way you would want, then the puppy is unlikely to behave the way you will want. *Field trials have failed at driving breeding selection to produce better gundogs"*
_
And some unconventional thoughts about training young retrievers:
_"2. Get *steady early* - every unrestrained retrieve trains pup to break. As soon as pup is retrieving eagerly, you should begin restraining him for a gradually increasing time period before releasing for the retrieve. Our milepost is a 30 ft retrieve, with pup restrained 30 seconds and confident enough to hunt after release for 30 seconds for the dummy. We typically have *16 week-old puppies steady* without restraint._

3. *More dummies; less birds* - Establish the behaviors of retrieving and delivery to hand using dummies. After the behaviors are well established and habits are strong, use some birds. Used too early in pup's training, birds tend to create problems, such as running off to the bushes with the bird, mouth problems, and unsteadiness. Birds are a giant leap in distraction level.

4. *More Blinds; Less marks* - The primary value of a marked (seen) retrieve should be as a reward for sitting quietly during and after the fall. Beyond that marked (seen) retrieves have a negative value with respect to teaching pup to stop on the whistle and take a cast. Every marked retrieve that pup completes trains him a little more to find the prey without help from the handler. The goal of hand signals is to train pup to take directional casts from the handler away from where pup wants to go, and toward where the handler wants pup to go.

*Bank Running Is Great *
The training practice that is the most widespread and causes most water problems with retrievers is the practice of training them to not run the bank. Bank running is a natural and desirable trait in a hunting dog.
Field trials have produced the fiction that _*bank running is bad. This is totally untrue*_. Natural inclination of dog is to take fastest route. We should listen to Mother Nature and let the dog take the dry route on a retrieve. If you take staying in the water to its logical conclusion, you end up with a hypothermic dog.

The retriever's ultimate function is to retrieve ducks in cold water. The longer that retriever stays in the water, the more body heat he loses, and the fewer retrieves he will be physically able to make, before he succumbs to hypothermia, which also can and will kill him. Conversely, the more time he is running on land the more heat he is generating by the metabolism of his large muscle masses. Thus it is desirable for a retriever to run the bank wherever possible."


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

Dave Flint said:


> No dog has ever earned a field trial title or even a Master Hunter title without the use of “compulsive” methods.
> 
> 
> ...


You went a bit overboard there. I don't know much about many dogs but even I know of one AFC who did. Howard would confirm were he still here.

Jere


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Jere said:


> You went a bit overboard there. I don't know much about many dogs but even I know of one AFC who did. Howard would confirm were he still here.
> 
> Jere


I've been wrong before, would like to hear about this dog.

I'm not sure though that even if one dog has earned an AFC that the gist of my comment isn't valid.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I'll wait on the trainer that teaches a hawk that is hungry not to hunt for prey or the dolphin to be vegetarian in the sea around fish ! all with Positive training .
No pictures or stories of 'Harvey' or whoever in a pose with a pussy cat !


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Dave Flint said:


> I've been wrong before, would like to hear about this dog.
> 
> I'm not sure though that even if one dog has earned an AFC that the gist of my comment isn't valid.


I would agree with you Dave. I would imagine you and Jere's disagreement would boil down to what is included on the list of "COMPULSIVE" methods


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

My dogs are "compelled" to take my cast because they've learned that's how they can get to the bird. : )


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MissSkeeter said:


> Yes I agree with you!
> 
> ..my point was I try to learn from everyone, even if I do not agree with their "program". And Milner's writing in the 1990s had some good stuff. His chapter on force breaking is more detailed than most with good rationale.
> 
> ...


Since he has not personally seen a field trial +/- 30 years how would he know any of this about field trials and field trial dogs. If he is drawing from his own experience when he was competing in the minor stakes in the late 70s/early 80s he would find a much different landscape from that time. Most field trial dogs that I know make and have made wonderful hunting dogs when given the opportunity.


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## Brian Daniels (May 21, 2011)

MissSkeeter said:


> [/SIZE]*Bank Running Is Great *
> The training practice that is the most widespread and causes most water problems with retrievers is the practice of training them to not run the bank. Bank running is a natural and desirable trait in a hunting dog.
> Field trials have produced the fiction that _*bank running is bad. This is totally untrue*_. Natural inclination of dog is to take fastest route. We should listen to Mother Nature and let the dog take the dry route on a retrieve. If you take staying in the water to its logical conclusion, you end up with a hypothermic dog.
> 
> The retriever's ultimate function is to retrieve ducks in cold water. The longer that retriever stays in the water, the more body heat he loses, and the fewer retrieves he will be physically able to make, before he succumbs to hypothermia, which also can and will kill him. Conversely, the more time he is running on land the more heat he is generating by the metabolism of his large muscle masses. Thus it is desirable for a retriever to run the bank wherever possible."


Thanks for this.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

Dave Flint said:


> I've been wrong before, would like to hear about this dog.
> 
> I'm not sure though that even if one dog has earned an AFC that the gist of my comment isn't valid.


Howard put me in touch with the dog's owner/trainer/handler back in 2001. I asked him and this is his reply:
"Hi Jere, you are exactly right. Preacher [Mr. Tanner's Pioneer Preacher] was a rare dog in that he was never forced and that I never used an electric collar on him. He was extremely trainable right from the start as a pup, so I just never bothered with the force. He got his AFC [in 1995] as you know, but he never managed to win an open for the FC. We came close a few times but it was not meant to be. He did have a NAHRA GMHR title to go with the AFC and he retrieved countless ducks, geese, Ptarmigan and grouse during his lifetime. Thanks for asking about Preacher. "

That WAS a long time ago. You could be right. There could be many reasons.

Jere


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

MissSkeeter said:


> Yes I agree with you!
> 
> ..my point was I try to learn from everyone, even if I do not agree with their "program". And Milner's writing in the 1990s had some good stuff. His chapter on force breaking is more detailed than most with good rationale.
> 
> ...


 Does anyone know/can guess who said this?

"Creating "good habits" is one of the keys to reducing pressure in training and is one of the important aspects of teaching. Consider the development of steadiness in a young dog: I think quite a few years ago it was fairly common to allow a young dog to basically be pretty unruly at the line - tugging on the lead, standing up, or otherwise on the verge of being out of controL The conventional wisdom was that you didn't want to diminish their desire by steadying young dogs too early. Then, at some point, you decide the pup is old enough to "get steady," and you lower the boom. 

"Today, it is more conventional to create the habit of steadiness right from the get-go by teaching a very young pup to sit still when marks are being thrown. Eventually, a little pressure from the heeling stick or collar may reinforce absolute steadiness, but the skill was taught as a fundamental habit, so, consequently, less pressure is needed to attain a high standard."

Jere


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

EdA said:


> Since he has not personally seen a field trial +/- 30 years how would he know any of this about field trials and field trial dogs. If he is drawing from his own experience when he was competing in the minor stakes in the late 70s/early 80s he would find a much different landscape from that time. Most field trial dogs that I know make and have made wonderful hunting dogs when given the opportunity.


Or, I'm sure, has not trained with any of the top pros. To see for himself, what it is, they are actually doing. And what the dogs of today are really like.
No, much easier to slam a bunch of things, about which...he knows nothing.

There are plenty of FT dogs who can sit just fine, and don't creep. Plenty are not noisy. Many have rarely broken. 

_"__Over the last thirty years the dog that is *high in reactivity and low in impulse control has spread prolifically in the field Labrador gene pool. " 
*_That is so wrong, it is laughable. Cause if a dog is like that...they don't make an AA dog.

Oh and most FT dogs make damn good pets and house dogs, too.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's the sam spiel he has been saying for years on his website and in books. It must work for sales. He has no clue and that's what makes him so repugnant.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

jimbo said:


> I was searching on the internet and came across this forum and was amazed how you guys act towards people(not just this thread and not just this person) I did read the article and didn't see anything wrong with it.
> What is wrong with a successful, positive reinforcement program for gundogs? Are you saying it is not possible? What do you base your "opinions" on? Why is it so popular with most other animal training programs and not in the gundog sector? seems that it is popular in a lot of "non-gundog" training groups.(agility, guide dogs, etc)


It's popular because of it's marketing and it's appeal to the soft hearted dog owner... and that's the only reason it's popular. I had a rein in a 2 yo asshole of a male golden today whose panic act was his way of getting over on his owner. She didn't like it at first, and admittedly it looked pretty rough... In the end with the dog laying calmly in the middle of her living room, no longer climbing all over me, her and the furniture... she realized I was right... He's been trained with treats and love for 2 years. 3 weeks of basic e-collar conditioning and today... I solved her issues...


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Sorry but I am not sure what the fuss is. Milner is what he is. A guy with a great marketing plan and below average dogs. Buyer beware I guess. And for Garden and Gun I have read a number of issues and love the concept but for the outdoors-man has anyone ever read a real hunting/fishing article in there? It is always generic fluff pieces for the super rich guy.


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## Hank Hopkins (Nov 16, 2014)

Nate_C said:


> A guy with a great marketing plan and below average dogs. Buyer beware I guess. .


I understand the lack of respect for him on this board because his statements are insulting. Some of them downright ignorant. His training program is also below par. All of this is part of his marketing plan that targets people who see E Collars as inhumane and it seems to work. 

As as for his dogs, what do they lack for someone who is interested in duck hunting and hunt tests?


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Boston , Georgia when Mike Lardy is in residence..the other "Rex Carr!"


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Hank Hopkins said:


> As as for his dogs, what do they lack for someone who is interested in duck hunting and hunt tests?


Desire, ability, style. Couple that with the price and you would find a much better expected value for a plain old duck dawg by spending $200 in a newspaper ad.

Nate is right though. Garden & Gun is a style magazine for poseurs. If you want to know the five best farmhouse sinks, or the latest restaurant in Charleston a foodie must be seen in, while dressing up your coffee table and helping explain why you own a Range Rover, G&G is your rag. If you want anything useful about the Gun side of it, there are better sources.


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## Hank Hopkins (Nov 16, 2014)

DoubleHaul said:


> Desire, ability, style. Couple that with the price and you would find a much better expected value for a plain old duck dawg by spending $200 in a newspaper ad.


Are you discrediting the long line of FT CHs in the pedigree of most of his dogs because it's not an American title? If not, tell me where I can find a dog with that title in his pedigree in the newspaper for $200. 

As for desire, ability and style...do you have first hand experience watching his dogs work or are you just referring to "British" Labs in general?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Hank Hopkins said:


> Are you discrediting the long line of FT CHs in the pedigree of most of his dogs because it's not an American title? If not, tell me where I can find a dog with that title in his pedigree in the newspaper for $200.
> 
> As for desire, ability and style...do you have first hand experience watching his dogs work or are you just referring to "British" Labs in general?


Please post some of the pedigrees with FTCH in the last 3-4 generations. I'm having a difficult time even find some of the Dams pedigree that he is listing on his site. 

As far as health screening, on his website he lists that dogs must pass OFA on hips and get checked for PRA. No mention of CNM, EIC, or elbows. I feel much is to be desired from a health clearance standpoint.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Hank Hopkins said:


> As for desire, ability and style...do you have first hand experience watching his dogs work or are you just referring to "British" Labs in general?


That is my impression from watching them work, such as it is. I don't really have an axe to grind here, so making me the straw man in your Milner defense is not going to get you what you want. He is wrong about most American FT dogs and I LOL about things like 'canoe labs', but more power to him. Lots of marketers do quite well exploiting the one-upmanship and insecurities of rich douches. G&G is the perfect exposure for him. I wish him well and hope every poseur in the South finds a Canoe Lab (c) under the tree his decorating service carefully selected and installed for him this Christmas.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Hank Hopkins said:


> Are you discrediting the long line of FT CHs in the pedigree of most of his dogs because it's not an American title? If not, tell me where I can find a dog with that title in his pedigree in the newspaper for $200.
> 
> As for desire, ability and style...do you have first hand experience watching his dogs work or are you just referring to "British" Labs in general?


I have trained several times with 2 Rosehill dogs and one of Milners. I also trained one day with a "finished" Milner dog that a pro was fixing. They are pretty good hunting dogs. Average desire. All four were bad blind running dogs & marginal markers. Had difficulty with marks that had structure like a point or a patch of land in the path of the mark.

I actually agree with his point about FT dogs. If you want a hunting buddy don't buy a FC to FC. They end up being great hunting dogs but they are a lot of work and a waste of money for ablities you will never use. This shouldn't be a FT stock to Milner compairison. What the comparison should be is to HRC dogs or AKC hunt test dogs. HRC puts line manors and control as a top priority. They are just what you want. You can buy a good HRCH to HRCH pup with GRHRCH grandparents, MH to SH or somehting like that usually for around 7500.00 to 1200.00. These would on average be a better dog and 20% less then what the Rosehills and Milners charge. For a finished dog there is a bigger difference. If you keep your eyes out within a few months you can pick up a SH level dog on sites like this for 2,500-5,000. These would be way better then a Milner "Finished" dog and though I can never get a strait answer is in the ballpark of half of what Miner changes.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Nate_C said:


> II actually agree with his point. If you want a hunting buddy don't buy a FC to FC. They end up being great hunting dogs but they are a lot of work.


Did you just say that? LMAO  Someone is gonna drop the hammer. 
I was going to post similar comments but didn't feel like putting myself in front of the bus...LOL. 

As for those who claim Brit line labs don't have drive, desire, or style, I guess I have been lucky with mine. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtD_PA3hSJE


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## Bob Glover (Nov 14, 2008)

I (unlike most posters on this board) have had personal experience with Robert Milner and his Duckhill Kennels. After my lab died I waited a time deciding whether I wanted another. After checking around eastern Arkansas for a pup, I decided to visit Duckhill Kennels and hey gave me the guided tour. Yes, they raise a lot of litters; however the dogs seemed well treated and socialized; I didn't see one aggressive dog. The kennels smelled like 'dog', but all were clean. I decided to purchase a pup from them, and chose one of their small 'canoe labs'. The price was $1,200 at 8 weeks of age (the earliest they let them go). Due to family obligations I chose to let her stay another 8 weeks for their 'headstart' program:this cost $400 more. Their price was competitive with others in my area. When I picked up my pup, she bounded out of the kennel, harassed their other dogs and cat and bounded in my lap. I trained her without an e-collar and used clicker training for obedience. 

Now, she's eighteen months old and weighs 45 lbs soaking wet. She did well on her first dove season (I don't duck hunt or field trial), isn't gun shy, isn't aggressive toward other dogs or cats, isn't shy to people, swims like a fish and loves to ride in a boat or car. She isn't gunshy at all; any faults she has are due to her trainers (my) lack of ability.

I don't know how his puppies or program would fit for the field trialer, but for the average person (like myself) who keeps their dog inside, hunts occasionally and wants a small lab to ride in a fishing boat as well as steady in a dove field this Duckhill pup was an excellent choice. I would not hesitate to get another pup from Duckhll Kennels.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Bob Glover said:


> I don't know how his puppies or program would fit for the field trialer, but for the average person (like myself) who keeps their dog inside, hunts occasionally and wants a small lab to ride in a fishing boat as well as steady in a dove field this Duckhill pup was an excellent choice. I would not hesitate to get another pup from Duckhll Kennels.


Good account - should this be filed under "Testimonial from a Canoe Labber?" And a question: Even though you don't duck hunt, you found Milner's $400 "head start" program "competitive with others in my area" - others who train retrievers for what, exactly, if not as duck dogs?



Nate_C said:


> If you want a hunting buddy don't buy a FC to FC. They end up being great hunting dogs but they are a lot of work...





Tobias said:


> Did you just say that? LMAO  Someone is gonna drop the hammer.
> I was going to post similar comments but didn't feel like putting myself in front of the bus...LOL.
> 
> As for those who claim Brit line labs don't have drive, desire, or style, I guess I have been lucky with mine.


 Juli, 'fraid you're setting up the British Lab as a straw dog - don't think anybody here's saying that they don't have "drive, desire or style," _unless Milner's trained them._ (OK, pretty sure *that* won't make it into the testimonial file. OK, let's say British Labs generally do have all the above, *unless Milner's trained them positive-only *- that read better as anti-marketing muckraking?) But field bred British Labs can take the training, and certainly take _*to *_the training, "our own training," just as "our own Labs" do.

And training any retriever for advanced work - whether from the duck blind or the line at a FT/HT - is a lot of work by anybody's account. Unless you're Milner and his adjutant irritant from Mississipp' peddling "Gentlem*n's Gundog$" that essentially come pretrained. Because, like Milner has been known to say, with only the slightest paraphrase, duck hunters shouldn't have to be dog trainers, too (meaning, subliminally, "Let us whelp a pretrained Lab for you - don't miss this great opportunity to have one of them - get your deposit down today!"*

MG

* 10 percent surcharge if we train them positive-only for you. Also, federal excise taxes may apply in our exorcising (positive-only exorcism!) their natural instincts of drive, desire and style right out of 'em.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Any of you folks ever read James Lamb Free? His was the only training book available when I started, 
I think you could find a lot to disagree with in that book. For newbies, his writing has merit & like the 
rest of us the newb's can find out the good things for themselves. 

As for Milnor, when I saw him he was wearing 2 bars, & shortly there after left the service. I don't think 
they move up the ladder that fast.

For the record, when I took my FT dog into a field to hunt upland game I could tell by their body language 
if there were going to be birds there & the abundance to be expected .


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Perhaps, crackerd. But regardless, choosing the breeding is the most important aspect of getting the type of dog one desires.

And yes, they all take a certain amount of training to become adequate hunting dogs...some, more than others. No matter the lineage... (they are all labs, after all)


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Tobias said:


> As for those who claim Brit line labs don't have drive, desire, or style, I guess I have been lucky with mine.


Never said that. Milner and British lines are two different things, though posting one youtube doesn't show much one way or another.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Thank you for the clarification.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Bob Glover said:


> I (unlike most posters on this board) have had personal experience with Robert Milner and his Duckhill Kennels. After my lab died I waited a time deciding whether I wanted another. After checking around eastern Arkansas for a pup, I decided to visit Duckhill Kennels and hey gave me the guided tour. Yes, they raise a lot of litters; however the dogs seemed well treated and socialized; I didn't see one aggressive dog. The kennels smelled like 'dog', but all were clean. I decided to purchase a pup from them, and chose one of their small 'canoe labs'. The price was $1,200 at 8 weeks of age (the earliest they let them go). Due to family obligations I chose to let her stay another 8 weeks for their 'headstart' program:this cost $400 more. Their price was competitive with others in my area. When I picked up my pup, she bounded out of the kennel, harassed their other dogs and cat and bounded in my lap. I trained her without an e-collar and used clicker training for obedience.
> 
> Now, she's eighteen months old and weighs 45 lbs soaking wet. She did well on her first dove season (I don't duck hunt or field trial), isn't gun shy, isn't aggressive toward other dogs or cats, isn't shy to people, swims like a fish and loves to ride in a boat or car. She isn't gunshy at all; any faults she has are due to her trainers (my) lack of ability.
> 
> I don't know how his puppies or program would fit for the field trialer, but for the average person (like myself) who keeps their dog inside, hunts occasionally and wants a small lab to ride in a fishing boat as well as steady in a dove field this Duckhill pup was an excellent choice. I would not hesitate to get another pup from Duckhll Kennels.


I am honestly glad you are happy with your dog. I am sure he will be healthy and a good hunting companion. At the end of the day the money doesn't matter that much as long as you are both happy. However the reality is that you way over paid for the dog. The talent level likely should have been a 6-800.00 dog. Sorry but the guy runs a puppy mill. That does not mean they are unhealthy or mistreated. I have never heard that about Milner or Rosehill. The issue is talent and price. The fact is that you cannot breed that many dogs and keep the talent level up, and there is no guideline for performance.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

Nate_C said:


> I am honestly glad you are happy with your dog. I am sure he will be healthy and a good hunting companion. At the end of the day the money doesn't matter that much as long as you are both happy. However the reality is that you way over paid for the dog. The talent level likely should have been a 6-800.00 dog. Sorry but the guy runs a puppy mill. That does not mean they are unhealthy or mistreated. I have never heard that about Milner or Rosehill. The issue is talent and price. The fact is that you cannot breed that many dogs and keep the talent level up, and there is no guideline for performance.


The key is to notice his requirement for a good dog. It is simply a dog that is not gun shy and picks up a dove. Nothing more. No blinds, no HT marks, nothing that requires virtually any training at all. That is the guy Milner wants to sell to , the guy who doesn't know better and doesn't know what he could have actually had.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

quacksnracks said:


> The key is to notice his requirement for a good dog. It is simply a dog that is not gun shy and picks up a dove. Nothing more. No blinds, no HT marks, nothing that requires virtually any training at all. That is the guy Milner wants to sell to....


RTF is a unique community where people come to learn and discuss and talk and argue about training retrievers. By RTF's very nature, it attracts participants who want more out of their relationship with their dog. 99% of folks with retrievers who actually hunt probably don't care if their dog can run blinds, be steady, or swim 200 yds. They want a family pet that will go out and pick up the occasional bird. That is where Milner's pups go. 

I don't care about the fact that he doesn't title his dogs - I think it would behoove him to sell on a limited registration though. And I still can't fathom the shear number of pups he spits out. I wonder if he is breeding bitches every 6 months.


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## Bob Glover (Nov 14, 2008)

quacksnracks said:


> The key is to notice his requirement for a good dog. It is simply a dog that is not gun shy and picks up a dove. Nothing more. No blinds, no HT marks, nothing that requires virtually any training at all. That is the guy Milner wants to sell to , the guy who doesn't know better and doesn't know what he could have actually had.


Ouch! I guess I didn't fully explain my situation; actually my pup is steady and runs blind retrieves well...I didn't state that in my previous post. I'm certain she could do HT work if I desired to invest the time and travel in that route....I don't. The nearest retriever club is over two hours away and I would rather spend that time fishing on the lake near my house (100 ft. away). Any faults she has are due to my lack of effort in training. I didn't want a pup from a 'hot' field trial line as I'm too laid back for that type dog. I didn't want to use an electronic collar...they're great tools in the right hands, but I've personally seen dogs that were harmed by their incorrect use and I didn't want to learn that method. Contrary to what quacknracks implies, I did my homework, DID know better, and did know what I could have actually had. Milner markets his dogs to someone who wants a good, calm, biddable hunting dog and companion that does the job with a minimum of training. That's what I wanted and that's what I got. There are a lot more of those type people out there than there are field trialers, and that's the reason kennels like Duckhill and Wildrose sell a lot of dogs.


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