# Question for hard core hunters



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm curious, the Vest thread got me wondering, for those dogs that do have a good double coat (regardless of breed) do you find you definitely need a neoprene vest for the dog? Is it something you only use late in the season? Or on long day hunts? Or in certain areas of the US?

Please let's not turn this into a standard/type/show vs field thing. I'm really interested in the answer. 

Sue Puff


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

A dog soaked to the skin is going to get cold in temps below 55 F. They're going to get soaked to the skin after a few swims. Then they have periods of inactivity waiting for the next group of birds. Best to prevent their core from getting wet to the skin by using a vest. 

I have two Goldens. One has a VERY thick double coat and he can go longer before getting cold, but he eventually gets cold after the fourth swim. My young one has a thin coat and gets cold quickly if she's inactive after getting wet. 

Disclaimer, I'm not a hard core hunter, but I jump shoot ducks in a coastal wetland 3 or 4 days a week during the season.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

If you hunt in a lot of cypress knees, you want a vest to protect the abdomen.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

suepuff said:


> I'm curious, the Vest thread got me wondering, for those dogs that do have a good double coat (regardless of breed) do you find you definitely need a neoprene vest for the dog? Is it something you only use late in the season? Or on long day hunts? Or in certain areas of the US?
> 
> Please let's not turn this into a standard/type/show vs field thing. I'm really interested in the answer.
> 
> Sue Puff


This should answer your question http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...quot-should-be-dead-quot&highlight=10+minutes


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

In the old days I saw dogs shiver like they were trying to crap a cactus because of the cold conditions. 

It is not just in the water. Snow, dew and sub freezing temps can all cause a hypothermia problem. 

I used to tell EMT students that the coldest thing a patient encounters is the ground yet often they are just covered to protect from the cold air. Same applies to dogs in field hunting. 

Thank you God for inventing neoprene vests and reminding me to take along a ground cover too.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

From early season to late. Almost always. Protection & concealment. Why not?


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I hunt in all sorts of conditions. Beaver ponds, impoundments, big and small water lakes. I keep a vest on my dog from day one. Two reasons really. One reason is for protection from underwater hazards that I cannot see. Or even those that I can. I also have some type of ground cover he can sit on in the blind, in my boat or even on the open ground. There are times when he is in the water a long time. He will get soaked to the skin pretty quickly during 3-4 long retrieves. Last year I was guiding at a managed impoundment and we had waves of birds coming in. My 3 hunters shot their limit of birds each in about 45 minutes. My dog was in the water almost non stop. At one point he made 12 retrieves with out getting out of the water. Air temp was about 50 and the water temp was close to the same. Needless to say that even with a vest on he was shivering afterwards. I'm also noticing that the older he gets the more susceptible he is to the cold. He will be 10 this December and I'll definitely keep an eye on him and also split up the work with a new pup I have.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I use one when it starts getting a little colder. They will not keep a dog from getting soaked to the skin as they are not water tight. However they will work like a wet suit and hold the dogs heat and be very warm. I have actually stuck my hands under the vest to warm them up after messing with the decoys and getting my hand wet and cold.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

A guy I used to hunt test with was some kind of a union muckety muck in the longshorman's union up here. He would have a sea duck hunt with his union buddies every year on Kodiak Island. He brought the only dog. He didn't always remember to bring the dog's vest on these trips and he couldn't exactly go home and pick it up once he left home.

He said the dog was only good for about 30 retrieves before hypothermia would set in and he had to quit for the day. He said with the vest on the dog was good for 50 retrieves before he got to cold. This is anecdotal, but I don't have any reason to disbelieve him.


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

My own observation is that they work better with dogs that have high body mass to begin with. Put one on a Shorthair and it does help but in a relative sense it is still not that valuable. I have found those ShamWow towels are the best at drying them off when they get out of the water. The vest isn't gonna help much when the dog is dripping wet out of the water. The idea behind the neoprene is that it traps water between the vest and dogs body to create a layer of warmer water but eventually it drains out or the dog can't keep the water layer warm any longer. That is why the biggest benefit is with dogs that have high body mass. The other thing is that a thick double coat is both a blessing and a curse because the undercoat stays very wet so the dog needs the opportunity to shake. The vests prevents that to some degree.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Use of a vest has nothing to do with proper coat, it has to do with keeping you dog comfortable in a harsh conditions, doesn't really have to do with water temp either. More like a wet dog is more comfortable sitting around in freezing temps. with wind-chill etc. for hours on end, with a vest keeping their body heat trapped to their body. A wet dog, even a dog with the best longest thickest coat whatever; will get cold if he has to sit unmoving for hours on end in freezing temps. Now if I had my dog out retrieving birds, and then moving around generating heat, she probably would die of heat stroke in a vest. But most duck dogs just sit after a cold weather retrieve, waiting for the next. They don't move around and generate heat, and they start to lose core temp. lose too much core temp. and you get hypothermia. It's not the coat, water or retrieving, it's the Sitting that will Kill Yah.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

SpinRetriever said:


> My own observation is that they work better with dogs that have high body mass to begin with. Put one on a Shorthair and it does help but in a relative sense it is still not that valuable. I have found those ShamWow towels are the best at drying them off when they get out of the water. The vest isn't gonna help much when the dog is dripping wet out of the water. The idea behind the neoprene is that it traps water between the vest and dogs body to create a layer of warmer water but eventually it drains out or the dog can't keep the water layer warm any longer. That is why the biggest benefit is with dogs that have high body mass. The other thing is that a thick double coat is both a blessing and a curse because the undercoat stays very wet so the dog needs the opportunity to shake. The vests prevents that to some degree.


The vest is valuable because it adds 2 to 4 hours to your hunting outing.


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

I will run one in a cut cornfield as well, late season stalks can be rough on a dog


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Neoprene vest are another invention that look functional,look cool, and are marketed as a cant live without item...actually own 3 of them, I think I have used them a total of three times...Mirk was too big for them and he never liked them, Nola hated them too...Kate liked them because she knew when I put one on her it meant we were going hunting...But I went many years without one and will probably continue to do so, mainly because it keeps the dog from doing what a dog's coat and body were made to do and thats shed water, and shake it off...If our dogs were constantly submerged in water like we were when we body surfed in the ocean then I could see the merits,but a dog's natural physiology is not like a human's..after a lengthy water retrieve I will try and let the dog shake out as much water from its coat as possible before getting back in the blind..I also worry about my dog getting hung up by their vests in deeper water and not being able to extricate themselves..to each their own


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

suepuff said:


> I'm curious, the Vest thread got me wondering, *for those dogs that do have a good double coat (regardless of breed)* do you find you definitely need a neoprene vest for the dog? Is it something you only use late in the season? *Or on long day hunts?* *Or in certain areas of the US?*
> Sue Puff


Sue,
I've never hunted in the states,so I personally wouldn't know! I've hunted much with retrievers in Scotland,and found that there are many retriever lines that don't have the coat' that some ice breakers have and just shake that cold out!. It's more the '*wind' *than the temperature that get's them (imo) They can shiver on a mild day if the coat don't shed the cold water!. I've never had to use a vest on a dog of mine. But maybe that restricts the dog from shedding that cold water?


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

I worry about getting hung up in places that I can't get to- seen it happen enough to justify the worry. Doesn't take much either- you can land a REALLY big fish on really tiny line. I also think that the dogs stay warm by trapping layers of air between layers of hair and the vest prevents them from shaking off the excess water. Sure would be interesting to see one of the major dog companies do a full fledged study to determine the benefits. For the time being- if it's too cold for the dog to go without a vest it's also too cold for this fat boy to be out. 
Weighing the risks and benefits regards

Bubba


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I guess it depends on the dog and the coat, which is Sue's original question. The vest definitely buys time for my thinner coated female. I didn't want to buy a vest, but did because she would start shivering after 45 minutes of being wet while duck hunting. Now we can go a good 4 to 6 hours. And that's more about me being done, than her.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I find that a dog scratches the ground around then and decides to lay down has had enough...vest or not.


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## DucksDogsDownriggers (Feb 21, 2013)

Bubba said:


> I worry about getting hung up in places that I can't get to- seen it happen enough to justify the worry. Doesn't take much either- you can land a REALLY big fish on really tiny line. I also think that the dogs stay warm by trapping layers of air between layers of hair and the vest prevents them from shaking off the excess water.* Sure would be interesting to see one of the major dog companies do a full fledged study to determine the benefits. *For the time being- if it's too cold for the dog to go without a vest it's also too cold for this fat boy to be out.
> Weighing the risks and benefits regards
> 
> Bubba


Completely agree-would love to see a good scientific study. I hunt my dog with a vest when the water temps get down in the low 50's, but my buddy, who has been guiding for 20+ years, and my trainer, both hunt their dogs without vests and the water we hunt gets down to the mid 30's by season's end. I think the use of a well enclosed mutt hut can really help preserve body heat.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I also carry the Sham-wow in by bag to dry the dogs off, my vest is a Avery boat vest and it fits snug enough on my dog that she does not get wet past a couple inches in side the edges of the vest,I dont recall ever seeing her rib cage area(vitals) wet after a hunt.I got very lucky with the fitting sizes as I did not need to trim it at all. I cut the D rings off the vest ,as I seen them as a potential snag area. The plus's out way the negatives IMO , added warmth, extra camo, ,added bouncy to help keep her a little higher in the water and protection from unforeseen obstacles. When your breaking ice in waders ,your dog needs any extra support she can get.
I watched her hit a log last year on a water entry ,that I'm sure without the vest she would have took some kinda cut to the chest (it left a slice in the vest about half way through and 2" long)


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

When hunting our marsh I've fallen into the habit of vesting my Chesapeakes any time it's cool enough for them to be comfortable in it, both to afford some protection from hazards:


and because energy not expended maintaining core temperature is available for other uses:


That, and I like to keep my partner and pal as comfortable as possible.

As for the notion that a dog stays wetter under a vest, it just doesn't (Ready for this?) hold water. Our marsh blind is a ten minute ride from the boathouse, and by the time the vest comes off at the dock, the fur under it is virtually dry, while the uncovered neck and shoulders that were shaken out and exposed to open air remain wet.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I actually agree, with what most have said, while I do believe it helps with warmth. I have hunted my dog in temps of 20-30 degrees, with no vest Cuz I forgot it, and the dog was fine. The real reasons my dog wears a vest, have nothing to do with warmth, Priority #1 is keeping me and hunting buddies dry in a boat, a dog with a vest doesn't spray water everywhere. Then there's the sticks, ice and other crap that has ripped and shredded the Kevlar but not shredded nor impaled the dog.


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## DropinBack (Sep 24, 2012)

If its under 45 Degrees outside, i usually use it. Also use it if its cooler and dog is hunting near stumps and trees for protection...


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

I waterfowl hunt with my golden retrievers northern NY on the St. Lawrence river until mid-December. I not only vest them, but I DOUBLE VEST them. I use a 5mm base layer topped with 3mm vest. More protection, warmth and flotation.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

A dog vest must be a snug or tight fit for it to assist the dog in keeping warm. It doesn't need to trap excessive amounts of water for it to contain the Doug's body heat. A damp coat will suffice.



SpinRetriever said:


> My own observation is that they work better with dogs that have high body mass to begin with. Put one on a Shorthair and it does help but in a relative sense it is still not that valuable. I have found those ShamWow towels are the best at drying them off when they get out of the water. The vest isn't gonna help much when the dog is dripping wet out of the water. The idea behind the neoprene is that it traps water between the vest and dogs body to create a layer of warmer water but eventually it drains out or the dog can't keep the water layer warm any longer. That is why the biggest benefit is with dogs that have high body mass. The other thing is that a thick double coat is both a blessing and a curse because the undercoat stays very wet so the dog needs the opportunity to shake. The vests prevents that to some degree.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

I hunt a lot here i SD. It's cold late season but I mostly field hunt and use vest in late season simply for concealment. My dogs don't seem to get too cold. Strange thing is that when I used to water hunt more..it seemed my dogs would shiver more with vest on than when off. Kinda wonder if vest kept them wet vs natural drying??


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks guys! Lots of valid points I didn't thing of....two in particular, dealing with safety. Keeping the dog from getting injured from various objects AND the possibility of a dog getting caught. Never considered those two. I always thought it was about warmth. Seems like it's a pretty split decision though and based on personal experience and individual dogs. 

Thinking about the cold an warmth issue, do you find having a little extra weight/fat on your dog adds benefit? They could still be fit and just carry a little extra layer. I'm coming at this from a nutrition standpoint. Insulation from the fat, but also fat to burn when doing bursts of activity like this....

I, too, would like to see the research project...

Sue Puff


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I have never used a vest on any of my dogs. 

Lonnie Spann


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

One of my mentors is adamant that you need to carry a knife to cut your dog loose from anything he might get hung on (collar, vest, or otherwise). He is also adamant that you need to know how to operate whatever machinery you might need to use to go get him. If mine is gone too long I'm not asking if I can use the boat, 4-wheeler, etc., but that won't be much help if I don't know how to crank it and drive it. This has happened to him a couple times in buck brush, so his concerns are well founded.

This guy has almost got me paranoid. And with my stubborn dog, I will be glad of it at some point.



suepuff said:


> Thanks guys! Lots of valid points I didn't thing of....two in particular, dealing with safety. Keeping the dog from getting injured from various objects AND the possibility of a dog getting caught. Never considered those two. I always thought it was about warmth. Seems like it's a pretty split decision though and based on personal experience and individual dogs.
> 
> Thinking about the cold an warmth issue, do you find having a little extra weight/fat on your dog adds benefit? They could still be fit and just carry a little extra layer. I'm coming at this from a nutrition standpoint. Insulation from the fat, but also fat to burn when doing bursts of activity like this....
> 
> ...


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

suepuff said:


> Thinking about the cold an warmth issue, do you find having a little extra weight/fat on your dog adds benefit? They could still be fit and just carry a little extra layer. I'm coming at this from a nutrition standpoint. Insulation from the fat, but also fat to burn when doing bursts of activity like this....


If you can keep any weight (extra or regular) on a hunting dog, during season, more power to yah; mine usually look like Skeletor, by the end of a weekend; that's after we've significantly increased their calorie intake.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

I'm not sure if any of you hunters carry an extra source of glucose for a quick energy fix. I use pancake syrup and give my oversized boy a shot of it about several times during a long search task. The brain needs glucose to function well and if the glucose is used up trying to keep the body warm, there is less of it for the brain.

If a dog is shivering, it is using glucose. Dogs can stay warmer longer if they have an extra source of it, rather then just what is circulating at the time.

I use syrup rather than a solid food, because he has a tendency to puke when given food while working hard.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

For cold weather-water hunting I don't think it's close, use a vest. Just based on the shivering test I am 100% certain my dogs are way more comfortable in a well fitted quality vest. Add in the other arguments, safety from punctures and abrasions, buoyancy and camo, it's a no-brainer.

Now I'm talking about north country cold weather water work, super cold upland or southern state winter hunting might be different, though I know it gets below freezing down there as well.

John


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## Mallard Mugger (Jul 29, 2009)

I thought all dogs shivered while out hunting???  From opening day to the last call of the season, 80° down 10° or colder. Wait, you're right, that's not shivering but quivering from excitement..... 

I do put a vest on late season. Pup is more comfortable with it and will be quivering vs shivering - all based off of how many screws are loose......


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Show dogs suck in cold weather

/Paul


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Show dogs suck in cold weather
> 
> /Paul


Only took four pages to get this....

You all are falling down on the job


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Mallard Mugger said:


> I thought all dogs shivered while out hunting???  From opening day to the last call of the season, 80° down 10° or colder. Wait, you're right, that's not shivering but *quivering* from excitement.....
> 
> I do put a vest on late season. Pup is more comfortable with it and will be quivering vs shivering - all based off of how many screws are loose......


 I agree…especially first light before shooting when ducks are landing in your decoys or a bunch of coots swim by the decoys. It’s funny watching them. They will look at you and then look out and then look at you and look out…over and over again. Later the excitement comes down a couple of levels.
Anyway, I have an old Avery 3mm vest that I don on my dog because of a lot of dead branches around the hole and it does show wear with holes more on the top and sides of the vest then the chest.
But the point is to recognize the symptoms that a dog has had enough and be smart enough to stop right there or you might not have a dog to hunt with anymore. You don’t want your hunt to turn into a nightmare. 
All I am saying is try to be diligent.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

All my dogs wear the Avery Boaters Parka vest's from opening day to freeze up. Without them I would certainly get far less hunting done as the dogs would be hypothermic. Besides the added warmth factor, protects from sticks and reeds that would otherwise cut them up. Cheap insurance in my opinion, I would rather replace a vest that has been sliced or punctured than have to take the dog to the vet. Seen many a vest cut up by barbed wire and sticks and generally the dog is unscathed.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

I have hunted many years without the vest and my biggeest reason was safety, I was more worried about them getting hung up and something bad happening. Luckily the one time I did have a dog get caught up the vest was velcro and came off. I was hunting a pond that was pretty safe but it opened my eyes. I really can't honestly say if my dogs are warmer with it. I believe their are water dogs and their are cold water dogs. I have had a few that the cold water never bothered. I have hunted a few rivers back in the day when it was below zero and the ice froze as soon as the dog got out and shook it off. I think this was before vest and the dogs did fine. I am lucky enough to hunt close to my rig and also to have a string of dogs. So now if I think a dog is getting cold I take them to the truck turn it on and let them lay on the floorboard. A few times I have had kids and dogs asleep in the front with the heater rolling when I return. I think Common sense goes a long ways in keeping dogs safe. I do see some lines with smooth coats and I do not think that is a good direction to go. I have friends in the south that love the slick coats. I am thinking about getting the vents like they have in cop cars to direct the heat to the back of my truck to warm them up in the topper.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

GulfCoast said:


> If you hunt in a lot of cypress knees, you want a vest to protect the abdomen.


I believe protection from cypress knees, stumps, snags etc are a much better reason to have your dog in a vest than protection from the cold. Vests can be counter-productive, IMO, for cold protection because they keep a dog wet, unable to shake out the water as they normally do when getting out of the water. I do have my dogs wear a vest most times hunting but for floatation and protection from abrasion not so much the cold. I don't hunt deep water or flowing water too often unless everything is frozen up but my dogs can be maniacs going for a bird in knee deep to waist deep water in flooded timber or fields where there are underwater hazards and they are lunging & swimming. A vest gives the dogs a little better protection from those underwater hazards.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

It's just a thought?....But if vests are used for protection against underwater hazards?.....Why do they not come with protection for the 'LEGS'? and 'FEET'?
They would surely come in contact with anything underwater 'First'? .....And, if standing on the frozen tundra just waiting, Surely the they are in contact with it from the ground up?


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

An FYI for those that don't think a vest will keep a dog warm: during bitter-cold weather I will keep my hands warm by placing them inside my dog's vest. A well-fitted neoprene vest will keep a dog warmer than most other practicable alternatives.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

tzappia said:


> An FYI for those that don't think a vest will keep a dog warm: during bitter-cold weather I will keep my hands warm by placing them inside my dog's vest. A well-fitted neoprene vest will keep a dog warmer than most other practicable alternatives.


So why not 'Leg warmers'?...I would have thought there was less body fat on the legs to keep the dog warm?


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

polmaise said:


> So why not 'Leg warmers'?...I would have thought there was less body fat on the legs to keep the dog warm?


It all has to do with core temperature. When the body core is warm there is ample circulation to the extremities. Warm blood is delivered to keep legs warm. Shivering comes when the body is trying to create warmth in the core. That's when less warm blood is delivered to the legs and leg warmers wouldn't be of much help.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Arnie said:


> It all has to do with core temperature. When the body core is warm there is ample circulation to the extremities. Warm blood is delivered to keep legs warm. Shivering comes when the body is trying to create warmth in the core. That's when less warm blood is delivered to the legs and leg warmers wouldn't be of much help.


So why did all them dancers wear them fluffy things on their ankles?.....Was it just a fashion thing?


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

polmaise said:


> So why did all them dancers wear them fluffy things on their ankles?.....Was it just a fashion thing?


Well I've never been very close to a tutu but I'd guess that they're keeping warmed up muscles from cooling down and tightening up. Probably not in any danger of hypothermia.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

polmaise said:


> So why not 'Leg warmers'?...I would have thought there was less body fat on the legs to keep the dog warm?





polmaise said:


> It's just a thought?....But if vests are used for protection against underwater hazards?.....Why do they not come with protection for the 'LEGS'? and 'FEET'?
> They would surely come in contact with anything underwater 'First'? .....And, if standing on the frozen tundra just waiting, Surely the they are in contact with it from the ground up?:sad:


 There are booties for pointers to protect their pads and a bright orange vest for safety reasons.
As to dancers:
I’m thinking the legging for dancers is to keep their legs warm so that they don’t cramp up and/or keep limber to prevent injury.

Keeping the core temp at check is the right answer.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

This one is for Cass.


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

polmaise said:


> This one is for Cass.
> View attachment 15555


"One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever" Which one is this?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

polmaise said:


> This one is for Cass.
> View attachment 15555


LOL. It's good that you have a sense of humor....It does go a long way....
Thanks for the pic...It made my day.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

polmaise said:


> So why not 'Leg warmers'?...I would have thought there was less body fat on the legs to keep the dog warm?


The twenty minute workout from the early 80's has lots of youtubes, and a semi cult following. They always wore legwarmers. Why do you think?  Maybe a hardcore hunter thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnM-H7QmWGo

JD


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## Steve Hamel (Mar 1, 2004)

I agree 110% with Tony Z. I've hunted plenty of days in Northern New England's late season with my mutts. You take your waders off and it's so cold they freeze and stand up by themselves. When you remove the dogs vests, steam is pouring off of them, and they are happy as a lark. 

Usually, I start mid november putting vests on my dogs.

Have fun and be safe.

Steve


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

tzappia said:


> An FYI for those that don't think a vest will keep a dog warm: during bitter-cold weather *I will keep my hands warm by placing them inside my dog's vest. *A well-fitted neoprene vest will keep a dog warmer than most other practicable alternatives.


I do the same. 
I hate gloves. 
When I start to get cold hands I put a vest on the dog. 
Guess it is my "rule of thumb"


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