# My HRC Grand experience...



## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

After hijacking some poor fellow's thread I decided to post my very own. So get out the Kleenex and cry with me or shed tears from laughing, but here goes the honest to God truth.

I am an amateur trainer and trained my very first HRCH dog back in 2009 (I think) anyway he was around 14-15 months old at the time he got the title. So we get the title at the same time that a few of my friends/ training buddies got their titles. We then moved over to try and get a MH. Well my dog decided that he LOVED to try to catch shot-fliers befor they hit the ground. At the same time my kids had entered into the teen years and I was moving my office some 22 miles away...Life got in the way and I was out of the sport for some 3 years.

Fastforward to last Summer, I decide to pull "Jack" out of retirement and get one of those snazzy HRC 500 point club jackets. Well, Jack had gained so much weight that I had to swim him every day for 2 months before I could begin training, for fear the extra weight would damage his joints. Anyway we get the weight off and start training. To my amazement he pretty much picked up right where we had left off 3 years prior. I was pleased. 
We started running HRC hunt tests and passed all but one (stupid handler mistake). Anyway I ordered a new box from Bittercreek. Well my box was being built in Oklahama, the Fall Grand was in Oklahoma... It was arranged for me to pick up my new box in Oklahoma the day BEFORE the Grand began, so being the type to want and get the most "bang for my buck" I decided to run the Fall Grand.

We immediately stepped up our training program in anticipation of running and passing our first Grand. Everything went really well in training.

I closed the office and drove out to Oklahoma (9 hours) two days before the Grand.

Day one.
Drove out to the training grounds at daybreak and there was one truck there. It ended up being two very nice gentlemen from Canada. Pro tariners, AND they welcomed be to train with them! Awesome. So they tell me to "go ahead and get my dog out and get in line". I get my dog out and they ask me what number he is in the running order, i told them "187" they immediately told me that they had dogs number 186 and 188! Could it get any better? We had an awesome day of training that was topped off with my first Canadian beer.

Day two.
More awesome training and guidance from my new pro-trainer friends. Life was good. I drove a couple of hour one-way that afternoon and picked up my new fancy dog box and managed to get to the Grand banquet only about 45 minutes late. When I got there I was met by a very nice lady who greeted me and knew who I was! My chest was swelled with pride, I figured that word had spread through the community about me and my awesome dog. However, it turned out that I was the ONLY handler who had not yet checked in and my name was on my bag of free goodies.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Day three.

Got up really early, today is the day, my first Grand. Well my wife had fever and was really sick. She had contacted a virus! She stayed at the hotel and wished me luck. I hurry off to the Handler's meeting. Upon leaving the parking lot I did the smartest thing I could think of doing to find my way to the test grounds...I immediately jumped right behind 2 dog trucks with SC license plates and followed in hot persuit at high speed for MANY miles. Eventually, about an hour later I managed to pull up beside the truck in the back, in a bad neighborhood, and inquired if they were going to the Grand. i was informed that they were, however, they were lost! I immediately turned around and backtracked some 40 miles and finally found the test grounds in time to be THE LAST PERSON TO WALK UP AT THE HANDLER'S MEETING...


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

My Pro-trainer friends then invited me to go and train for a couple of hours and the return to see how things were progressing at the test grounds. I just got to our training are when my wife calls and tells me she has had a prescription called in and I need to go and get it for her. This was some hour from the test grounds! Well I fetched the better-half's medicine and delivered it to the hotel (she had been moved to another room because the T.V. was messed up in our first room however she was too sick to gather up our belongings and move them to the new room so I was afforded the opportunity to do this while there) I sped back to the test grounds in time for the hunt to be called off because of lightening. Its raining but I'm mostly dry and warm because I'm wearing my new Drake rain coat that I purchased right before the Grand "just in case I needed it".


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Day four:

Up early and out to the test grounds. Wife is still sick and laid up at the hotel. Me and Pro-trainer friends watch for a little while and then off to get in some training. Training was good as usual. I didn't get to run this day because of the delay on day one. So off to the hotel, in the rain.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Day five:

Wife feels lots better, but still not well enough to go watch my spectacular performance at the Grand. I feel feverish! I arrive at the test grounds and the longer I wait the higher my fever gets. Eventually the marshall calls my number and I get in line. All is well and regardless of how I feel, I know that Jack has it under control. Hey, I've ran tougher setups all Summer. Well eventually we are called to the line. Despite being feeverish and cold because my new rain coat (my only coat on the trip) was hanging in the hotel room drying from yesterday's monsoon, I felt good about the test.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

So I proceed to the line and my dog is REALLY excited. He is bouncing up and down on his front feet and just can't wait to go. I sit down on the bucket and grab the gun. At that moment a judge says "NO! That's not what we're looking for". I looked at him and he says "Sorry". So I put the lead on my dog and walked from the line. The other judge obviously didn't agree with the first judge's decision, as they had a conversation for about a minute and then called the next dog to the line. On my journey back to the truck I was asked by several handler's "are they moving you three dogs back?", "what happened?", etc. i watched my friend run his dog and I said my goodbyes and left.

I immediately went back to hotel took some of my wife's medicine, packed up and headed back to Alabama. As we wete driving into Memphis I asked my wife if she packed my new raincoat to which she promptly replied "no, I thought that you got it". Just my luck, however a quick call to the hotel and I was comforted by the manager informing me that housekeeping had brought my coat to the front desk and the manager would ship it out to me Monday morning!

Long story short, a month later I didn't have my coat, some SOB stole it fom the front desk. Eventually the owner of the hotel reimbursed the cost of a new coat.

All in all it was quite an experience. One that I have absolutely no desire to ever experience again.

Thanks for reading my long-winded rant.

Lonnie Spann


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm HOOKED! And I have a gut cramp from laughing! And so does my husband, who is hearing it second hand from me!!! Keep going!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I'm HOOKED! And I have a gut cramp from laughing! And so does my husband, who is hearing it second hand from me!!! Keep going!


Jen he isn't joking Lonnie Lawyer is looking for some punitive damages.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

When I posted, he had only written up to post 4. 

But I loved the story. So classic! Everything goes wrong at once. Or at least, in succession. I know you must have a bitter trench ingrained in your heart and brain after that, but it was a major comedy of errors. Hope you are recovered, Lonnie!!!


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## 30 caliber (Jan 28, 2008)

Not the first story I've heard about the ridiculous judging at the Grand. I'll stick to the Master National (where the dogs have to qualify every year), thank you very much.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

it appears like hrc is trying to kill it's self


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

In the weekend tests, both judges have to agree that the dogs pass or fail. Not sure if that is the case in the grand. Might be that one of them was the "experienced" judge and the other was in his first assignment, and the other guy was trying to show what was acceptable or not. Also, many times while judging, I have conferred with the other judge as a handler left on a lot of things other than the last dogs performance. Hard to read much into that IMO. 
Nevertheless, if the dog was that amped up at the line, as a judge, I would have let him go ahead and see the birds and break if he were inclined to or blow off whistles on the blind. That is a lot more palatable to the handler and also more "fair" if there is such a thing. Life has taught me that "fair" is usually just a 4 letter word that starts with "F". 
Since the other handlers that actually saw the whole thing asked what the problem was, I would also read into it that that there was a pretty sharp pencil that day.
See you at the MN.
MP


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Lonnie, Sorry to read it, but I'm glad you have the sense of humor to post it. Just enjoy the dog!

The "Grand" is what it is. The "MN" is what it is. I'd rather go real hunting. The weekend tests are enough "proofing" for me.


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## Seabass77 (Jan 18, 2013)

I kept refreshing my screen last night to read this post, outstanding story.


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## grnhd (Jan 4, 2013)

Sounds like you got a real screwing. Do the same judges judge every year? Did you get to see other dogs going to the line? How did they act?
Myself,I dont think I would let that stop me,it would make me more determined to pass and show them ****** my dog could do it!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

what did you do wrong?
did they even toss the birds?


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> what did you do wrong?
> did they even toss the birds?


I did nothing wrong. The one judge said my dog's line manners were not what he was looking for. My dog had "happy feet" and was hopping up and down, at heel.

The birds were never thrown.


Lonnie Spann


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

I too have heard horror stories about judging at the Grand but have never had the opportunity to witness it first hand. I did run a Seasoned test a couple of weeks following the Grand judged by guys who had just judged the Grand. Their Seasoned test more closely resembled a Master test without the flyer. :shock:


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## jde512 (Apr 15, 2010)

Good read Lonnie! Hope you're able to laugh about it now. Thanks for sharing.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

sorry about your experience but am happy you have a sense of humor, how do you like the dog box?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Lonnie Spann said:


> So I proceed to the line and my dog is REALLY excited. He is bouncing up and down on his front feet and just can't wait to go. I sit down on the bucket and grab the gun. At that moment a judge says "NO! That's not what we're looking for". I looked at him and he says "Sorry". So I put the lead on my dog and walked from the line. The other judge obviously didn't agree with the first judge's decision, as they had a conversation for about a minute and then called the next dog to the line. On my journey back to the truck I was asked by several handler's "are they moving you three dogs back?", "what happened?", etc. i watched my friend run his dog and I said my goodbyes and left.
> 
> I immediately went back to hotel took some of my wife's medicine, packed up and headed back to Alabama. As we wete driving into Memphis I asked my wife if she packed my new raincoat to which she promptly replied "no, I thought that you got it". Just my luck, however a quick call to the hotel and I was comforted by the manager informing me that housekeeping had brought my coat to the front desk and the manager would ship it out to me Monday morning!
> 
> ...


Sorry you had such a bad experience.

I will never run or judge a Grand. Even though I have a really nice 500 point dog that has only failed one Finished test, it's not something I want to do. I especially don't want a committee telling me how to judge the dogs.

When I saw the judges list for the Grand you attended, I noted one judge that should not be allowed to judge at any level. I have run several tests under this guy, passing all of them, so I have no axe to grind there. Made me go hmmmmm......

I love running and judging the weekend HRC tests, but the Grand is just not my cup of tea.

Then again, neither is the Master National......-Paul


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

Hey Lonnie thanks for the story. Those two Canadians were the ones that had my black dog Chant with them. I am sorry your experience was so negative but I can't help wonder if I would have been happier had Chant gone out in the first instead of the 4th. It was the first Grand for the fellow running her and I think maybe nerves played a little on the handle in the fiirst series. Like you not sure if we will repeat the experience it is even hard sitting at home following on the computer.
Jude is now in Georgian, you just might hear from him.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

On the bright side you met a couple crazy canucks and had your first Canadian beer. 
I can't believe they did not even allow you to run your dog...what a shame!
After everything you went through I would have snapped right there and then on that judge....being honest.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Scum Frog said:


> On the bright side you met a couple crazy canucks and had your first Canadain beer.
> I can't believe they did not even allow you to run your dog...what a shame!
> After everything you went through I would have snapped right there and then on that judge....being honest.


Yup I am with Scum on this one.
Mr. Spann Sir. I hope I would be able to thank the judges and walk away like Bon's sig line Lanse quote as you did.
You are very cool. I mean, I have gone out before the judges said dog, on the first set up. In a normal weekend hunt test, more than once. One Sunday morning I went from Burlington Vt. to West Tompson Ct for a Yankee test and was back home on my couch by 11:00 a.m. ! But never had to wait 5 days to crash and burn! I bet I woulda had a hissy fit I woulda been ashamed of for years. Oh, and Scummy. You should know. If from Canada, it's Bier! ;-)


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

30 caliber said:


> Not the first story I've heard about the ridiculous judging at the Grand. I'll stick to the Master National (where the dogs have to qualify every year), thank you very much.


I knew this was coming....I am a member of Three Rivers and worked the grand each day and I can tell you that the judging was not harsh at all. I watched a guy also not get to run because his dog beat him to the line by 10ft and visited the honor dog before going to the bucket. He was fine with it. I feel for Lonnie but also feel that his dog's manners must have been fairly extreme because very very few were not allowed to run or hunt on a mark.

I hope Lonnie wasn't trying to beat down the judging because I didn't get that from him. Hell my GRAND dog broke on the second mark in the first series without a warning, so we are out. The excitement is something that cannot be duplicated.

I cannot speak about other Grands, but I can on this grand and the judging was consistent and let the dogs work. I've got video to prove it. 

So don't start bashing if you weren't there and go ahead and stick to the MN, I'm sure that some dogs were roped there before they got to run.

Jeff Huntington


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## Dos Patos (Oct 15, 2012)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Lonnie, Sorry to read it, but I'm glad you have the sense of humor to post it. Just enjoy the dog!
> 
> The "Grand" is what it is. The "MN" is what it is. I'd rather go real hunting. The weekend tests are enough "proofing" for me.[/QUOTb
> Bingo!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I am contemplating putting a dog on Lonnie's truck just so I can get updates of the days performance!


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

ebenezer said:


> Hey Lonnie thanks for the story. Those two Canadians were the ones that had my black dog Chant with them. I am sorry your experience was so negative but I can't help wonder if I would have been happier had Chant gone out in the first instead of the 4th. It was the first Grand for the fellow running her and I think maybe nerves played a little on the handle in the fiirst series. Like you not sure if we will repeat the experience it is even hard sitting at home following on the computer.
> Jude is now in Georgian, you just might hear from him.


Ebenezer,

Chant is an awesome dog. Yes, I spoke with Jude yesterday, he is a relly nice individual and someone I wouldn't think twice about sending a dog to. He is a perfectionist and is really compassionate toward the dogs. Hopefully I will be training with Jude next month.

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Scum Frog said:


> On the bright side you met a couple crazy canucks and had your first Canadain beer.
> I can't believe they did not even allow you to run your dog...what a shame!
> After everything you went through I would have snapped right there and then on that judge....being honest.


Well if I hadn't been suffering from my wife's virus, I'm sure I would have definately been a contender for the 2012 HRC Grand Horse's Ass Award!

Lonnie Spann


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mr Spann

Your dog failed 2 tests in his career, and ya wanna whine about the Venue.

Your Topic has been discussed several times on the HRC board..
While I agree that dogs should be judged by what they do in the field, HRC holds dog to a high standard getting TO, and AT the line.
It isnt just the Grand either.
Weekend Finished tests have a standard of getting your dog to the line... for ALL levels.. Finished level requires to dog to be under control. Thats subjective.

Here is what the Seminar teaches as to the weekend tests.

*Recommendations for Advising Handlers a Dog Has Failed While On the Line:​*•​Anytime a dog has clearly failed any portion of a test, judges should advise thehandler immediately that the test is failed and briefly explain why.​•​Objectives of each part of the test should have been clearly stated in the handlerbriefing so everyone knows what is expected on each portion of the test.​•​Both judges must be in agreement (judges may need to pause to converse witheach other) that the dog has failed and there is no chance it can recover to earn apassing grade.​•​The decision that a dog has clearly failed will be based on the dog’s performance,not changing test conditions, a poor throw, a sunken duck, or any other mitigating​factors.

So,, If you look at the weekend Finished written standards (rules) of a test, getting to the line under FINISHED control is a SECTION or PART of a test.
You see by what the Seminar teaches, that If you FAIL any portion of that test, It is recomended the Judges notify the handler IMMEDIATLY.

So, the rule incorporates the weekend test also...

Im Sorry you have a dog that has trouble at the line...Let me tell you, I know he feeling.

But,, I have a HRCH dog,, and the subjective nature of Judging, allowed us to gain a HRCH title,, when quite frankly,, I do NOT think we deserved it..

Requireing a dog to come to the line under srtrict control,, then sit obediently isnt going to make a "Pig" out of him, like you posted in your other thread..

If you dont like the written rules of a Venue,, dont run it... But,, dont disparage it either...

Your HRC Grand experience sounds like a bad deal all around, including Family issues....

I'm sorry the Judges did what was expected of them that day,, with HUNDREDS of dog under their watchful eye to evaluate..

Such is life my friend,,,,,, I would be VERY happy with that dog a yours that has only failed 2 tests in its life....

I would also be looking at the dogs obedience standard..


I speak from experience... Its NOT the Venue,, Its NOT the dogs Breeding,,, It's Most Definatly YOU..

Your dog wont become a "Pig" if you make him "sit"
JMHDAO.

Gooser


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> Yup I am with Scum on this one.
> Mr. Spann Sir. I hope I would be able to thank the judges and walk away like Bon's sig line Lanse quote as you did.
> You are very cool. I mean, I have gone out before the judges said dog, on the first set up. In a normal weekend hunt test, more than once. One Sunday morning I went from Burlington Vt. to West Tompson Ct for a Yankee test and was back home on my couch by 11:00 a.m. ! But never had to wait 5 days to crash and burn! I bet I woulda had a hissy fit I woulda been ashamed of for years. Oh, and Scummy. You should know. If from Canada, it's Bier! ;-)


Mr. Bora,

I didn't "thank the judges". I did want to pitch a fit BUT my friend was running the dog immediately behind me and I didn't want to cause a ruckus and delay the other handlers. 

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

MooseGooser,

Maybe I didn't convey some part of the story clearly BUT my dog has failed more than 2 hunt tests in his career. When he was 8 months old running Seasoned tests I never knew which dog was coming out of the box, the well-mannered, outstanding dog or the dog that appeared to have been picked up from the pound on my way to the hunt test  

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Mike Perry said:


> See you at the MN.
> MP


I certainly hope so.

Lonnie Spann


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

I think the string I started spawned this. I think this is a big issue and a fair one. Like everyone I hear all these stories. Please don't take offence to this but Handlers tend to underestimate the behavior or their dogs. If the dog was wining, and jumping half his body length...ect.. I agree if that is too much but if he was quite and just bounding a few time a few inches that is no big deal. I just don't know cause the event provides no standard. Some time they make me hesitant to spend $1000.00 on an event when I don't have a clear understanding of the standard. Why not just create a standard.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

I want to hear about "flushing in Grand style"...


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

RF2 said:


> I want to hear about "flushing in Grand style"...


Don't know anything about that RF2, as I never made it to the upland portion. However, if you want to talk about "flushing the Grand" I can certainly contribute to that conversation.

Lonnie Spann


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RF2 said:


> I want to hear about "flushing in Grand style"...


 Is that the "lay down, when you hear feathers" style?


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

RF2 said:


> I want to hear about "flushing in Grand style"...


Ask Mickey Klotther. He can give you all the details.... 

At least they took Lonnie's entry.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Bull. Anything goes at the weekend tests when it cones to line manners. I know because my dog has gotten away with murder at the line. I know better now and don't tolerate it but a blind eye is turned most of the time. Keep toting the company line if you wish but Hrc is about passing dogs on the weekends. Poor work passes all the time from what I've seen. Hrc is about fun first and dog work second. Except for the grand when an imaginary rule book comes out. With that said I've got a dog that will be running the grand in 2014 assuming we stay healthy.


MooseGooser said:


> Mr
> 
> Your dog failed 2 tests in his career, and ya wanna whine about the Venue.
> 
> ...


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Great story !




I've ran 5 Grands. I to have heard the stories. BUT have not seen the SCREWING that people say they got. At the handlers meetings they tell you what is exspected of you and the dog. Grand level control ! 

As far as some of you sticking with MN from what I saw at MN they were dumping dog because the judges were told that they were carrying to many dog. Who got screwed there ?


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> Great story !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is "Grand Level" control and who defines it? Why would the standard vary so much from weekend tests to the "Holy Grail" of retriever test? Wouldn't the dogs playing the game benefit greatly if the standard was the standard all of the time? I know the answer: watered down tests make more people play and those who can't play hire a pro thus more $$$ for AKC/HRC.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Lonnie it took ONLY ONE Grand to get me away from running any HRC events. Stop by and let me shake your hand at North Alabama as I see you are listed as a handler there........Otey Brabston


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> Bull. Anything goes at the weekend tests when it cones to line manners. I know because my dog has gotten away with murder at the line. I know better now and don't tolerate it but a blind eye is turned most of the time. Keep toting the company line if you wish but Hrc is about passing dogs on the weekends. Poor work passes all the time from what I've seen. Hrc is about fun first and dog work second. Except for the grand when an imaginary rule book comes out. With that said I've got a dog that will be running the grand in 2014 assuming we stay healthy.



What part of my post was BULL,,,,,,,, claims adjuster??

The verbage in RED is a quote from the seminar.

If you would have read what I said,, I said I have an HRCH dog, that I think doesnt deserve the title!!!

Had bad line manners... Horrid ones now that i think back to it..

Those manners were allowed to pass... I just kept playin.....

I believe handelers do themselves harm, when they accept sloppy standards.

There is a Pro in region 13. I have sat on the bucket next to him... Really good guy,, in fact I bought my latest puppy from him..

He and I would BOTH pass tests!!! If you really looked at My dogs performance, and compared it to His,, my dog wasnt even in the same league..
Its kinda a disgrace, that My dog and his, at one time, had the same title. I personally never felt very good about that!!

His dogs are now Grand dogs!!! They are FAR from being anything labled as a "Pig" quite the contrary..

He trains them to "sit" .......... PERIOD!!!
JMHDAO,, but next time read what I said!!!

Gooser


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 25, 2003)

I've run the grand, titled two dogs, didn't pass them all. I've had judges disagree twice and was out because of it. 
If you attended the handlers seminar you may have a better understanding of the standard. But every time I was out it was for the same reason. 

I GAVE THEM SOMETHING TO JUDGE. If you and the dog do it all right they have nothing to judge. Judges rotate in and out. I hope you take it as a challenge and know the feeling of your first Grand Pass. / and Grand title. 

Your Right its Hard. There are less Grand titled dogs than FCs. 

Best of luck.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I hopw we all understand that when we play the HT game, it is very subjective in nature.

If like in my example above, I COMPEATED against that Pros dog on those weekends,, I wouldnd have even been in the running.... There is absolutly no comparison, as to the quality of the work!

But,, 

In the subjective OPINION of two judges those weekends,, I met the standard!!... with a creepy, out of control, dog( thats MY subjective opinion)

Its the chance you take, when you decide to play the game!! What Judge has what opinion about how to apply the written standards in His tests!!

its the way it is!!!

Again,,, JMHDAO


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Raymond Little said:


> What is "Grand Level" control and who defines it? Why would the standard vary so much from weekend tests to the "Holy Grail" of retriever test? Wouldn't the dogs playing the game benefit greatly if the standard was the standard all of the time? I know the answer: watered down tests make more people play and those who can't play hire a pro thus more $$$ for AKC/HRC.



The rules define it. What is finished level control ? what is seasoned level control ? Why not have one level for all dogs ? If it wasn't jugded at a higher level than finished then why do it ? Train to a higher standard. It's not a weekend test.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I hopw we all understand that when we play the HT game, it is very subjective in nature.
> 
> If like in my example above, I COMPEATED against that Pros dog on those weekends,, I wouldnd have even been in the running.... There is absolutly no comparison, as to the quality of the work!
> 
> ...



I would say that's true in any dog game.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

The part about hrc having a strict line manner standard. It's far from it on the weekends. FAR from it. It's a joke to say the line manner requirements are tough to be honest. Thats the part that is bull.


MooseGooser said:


> What part of my post was BULL,,,,,,,, claims adjuster??
> 
> The verbage in RED is a quote from the seminar.
> 
> ...


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> Lonnie it took ONLY ONE Grand to get me away from running any HRC events. Stop by and let me shake your hand at North Alabama as I see you are listed as a handler there........Otey Brabston


Otey,

I'll be there and look forward to meeting you.

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

JustinS said:


> sorry about your experience but am happy you have a sense of humor, how do you like the dog box?



Justin,

I really like the box. The materials, design and workmanship are top-notch. Forest and the guys at Bittercreek were a pleasure to do business with, I highly recommend them.

Lonnie Spann


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> The part about hrc having a strict line manner standard. It's far from it on the weekends. FAR from it. It's a joke to say the line manner requirements are tough to be honest. Thats the part that is bull.



Heres what I said!

Quote:

While I agree that dogs should be judged by what they do in the field, *HRC* holds dogs to a high standard getting TO, and AT the line.
It isnt just the Grand either.




*HRC* holds dogs to a high standard getting TO and AT the line.. The Venue teaches it at the seminars..

How that is transfered to the weekend judges is a whole nuther matter...

You can read the rule book of the requirements of a Finished dog getting to the line.. (finished level of control) You can also read the requirements of what the dog is required to do oce it gets there,, and what is required when it honors...
If YOU accept less,,,, Whos fault is THAT????

If Judges turn a cheek,, thats a different problem that needs addressed...

I find it insulting to the Pro,, that a dog like mine can have the same title ON PAPER as a dog like that Pro I talked about..

But you see,, its subjective interpretation with the application of the standard...

Some judges are [email protected] busters nad some Judges are cream puffs,,, Its just the way it is!!
I know folks that HT shop Judges...

Gooser


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> But you see,, its subjective interpretation with the application of the standard...
> 
> Some judges are [email protected] busters nad some Judges are cream puffs,,, Its just the way it is!!
> I know folks that HT shop Judges...
> ...


It's always easier to blame failure on the judges instead of yourself or your dog.


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## cwilson (Feb 18, 2011)

Lonnie: Your 1st Grand experience is certainly 1 you won't forget. I am trying to run my 1st but am having a hard time working it into my schedule (don't get a lot of vacation time). I was able to go watch this fall and it was an experience. I've never seen that many dogs/people at a test before, I knew there would be a bunch but dang. I can't imagine what it will be like for a 1st time amature, and with everything else you had going on I would have lost my mind.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Well I will weigh in on my first grand experience. Now mind you I had never seen one but like you I knew and trained with many of my Canadian friends. They warned me ahead of time about what was expected at the Grand so I focused on that in my training but I was only going for the experience and see what it was all about. I had not expectations of passing, I would have been happy to just be ther for a day or two. End result- we passed and I was hooked. Now I won't say that future grands have been a repeat of that first grand but I have always gone knowing that the expectations for dog performance from the holding blind to the end ribbon are high. If I or my dog gives less than than that expectation then it isn't the judges fault it is ours. Are some judges sharpe with their pencils, yep so I try an not give them something to use their pencils on. 

The Grand isn't the same as a weekend hunt. It isn't judged to the same standards as the weekend hunt, do I think the weekend hunt judges need to look for the dogs performance from the last holding blind to the exit ribbon.... yep. Judge the dogs from where you as a judge have stated the test will begin. 

Getting consistant judging across HRC has been a goal but let's face it getting consistant judging in all the venues has been a goal  I have been to master tests were one of the double tests was a mini Q and the second hunt was either a by the book hunt or a cream puff and both judge just as inconsistantly. People look a the rules and all will find something "in their opinion" should be a certain way. That may not have been the intent of the rule but that is how they read it. 

Just my opinion but I will again be trying for the brass ring at this years spring grand, and I will wish my fellow handlers luck that their dogs are in sink with them from the last holding blind to the exit ribbon...


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

cwilson said:


> Lonnie: Your 1st Grand experience is certainly 1 you won't forget. I am trying to run my 1st but am having a hard time working it into my schedule (don't get a lot of vacation time). I was able to go watch this fall and it was an experience. I've never seen that many dogs/people at a test before, I knew there would be a bunch but dang. I can't imagine what it will be like for a 1st time amature, and with everything else you had going on I would have lost my mind.



If you really want a grand pass on your dog, find a pro that you like and trust and that has passed many dogs in many grands. You will save your vacation time, and won't cost you that much more in the long run to let a pro have your dog for a couple months, and you will have a chance of your dog obtaining a pass. Check the historical results and see how many pros vs ams pass the event. 
Many ams don't know how to train to the grand standard and many don't know the standard anyway. A pro who has been there and done that, does. 
That is the difference.
I am ready for the "do it yourself, it will mean so much more" responses but the pure bottom line economics of it is that if you are not an accomplished am. trainer with an exceptional dog and if you are not lucky on top of all that, you will not pass. You have to have great line manners and be excellent in 4 consecutive retrieving series and then hope the upland is not a cluster that messes up 4 good days of work for the pass. That is a lot to ask of an amateur or weekend trainer.
Flame away regards,
MP


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> If you really want a grand pass on your dog, find a pro that you like and trust and that has passed many dogs in many grands. You will save your vacation time, and won't cost you that much more in the long run to let a pro have your dog for a couple months, and you will have a chance of your dog obtaining a pass. Check the historical results and see how many pros vs ams pass the event.
> Many ams don't know how to train to the grand standard and many don't know the standard anyway. A pro who has been there and done that, does.
> That is the difference.
> I am ready for the "do it yourself, it will mean so much more" responses but the pure bottom line economics of it is that if you are not an accomplished am. trainer with an exceptional dog and if you are not lucky on top of all that, you will not pass. You have to have great line manners and be excellent in 4 consecutive retrieving series and then hope the upland is not a cluster that messes up 4 good days of work for the pass. That is a lot to ask of an amateur or weekend trainer.
> ...


Mike, 

are you suggesting the Grand is or should be a "Pro show"?-Paul


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I dint mike is suggesting anything but rather stating the obvious. Look at the numbers. I think it's unfortunate but it is what it is.


paul young said:


> Mike,
> 
> are you suggesting the Grand is or should be a "Pro show"?-Paul


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

claimsadj said:


> I dint mike is suggesting anything but rather stating the obvious. Look at the numbers. I think it's unfortunate but it is what it is.


Yes I agree. The organization that was "*Conceived by Hunters for Hunters"* seems to have drifted far off course. But, this is just the opinion of one hunter.

Lonnie Spann


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Yes I agree. The organization that was "*Conceived by Hunters for Hunters"* seems to have drifted far off course. But, this is just the opinion of one hunter.
> 
> Lonnie Spann


Lonnie,
I read this whole thread and I have a question.

Are you going to this years Spring or Fall Grand???


Just askin'............


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## mallardtonetom (Apr 19, 2011)

Well, I'm right with you Lonnie, To bad you missed listening to the blowhard at the handlers meeting giving everyone a lesson in geometry in how he wanted the blinds judged. Then at the water test site were the blowhard hovered over the judges while they explained the test. I've been field trialing and running hunt teste for 30 years and have never seen two more intimidated judges, they were both physically shaking. Both of the test dogs would have failed occording to the blowhard's definition of a break. Alot of really good dogs were penciled out of this first test. Not what the founders of the HRC envisioned. But I guess we were there to contribute to the blowhard's college fund. T


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## John Daniels (Jan 1, 2012)

Jim Thompson said:


> Your Right its Hard. There are less Grand titled dogs than FCs.
> 
> Best of luck.


Apples to oranges. How many FC's would there be if they only ran 2 Field Trials each year?


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

mallardtonetom said:


> Well, I'm right with you Lonnie, To bad you missed listening to the blowhard at the handlers meeting giving everyone a lesson in geometry in how he wanted the blinds judged. Then at the water test site were the blowhard hovered over the judges while they explained the test. I've been field trialing and running hunt teste for 30 years and have never seen two more intimidated judges, they were both physically shaking. Both of the test dogs would have failed occording to the blowhard's definition of a break. Alot of really good dogs were penciled out of this first test. Not what the founders of the HRC envisioned. But I guess we were there to contribute to the blowhard's college fund. T


So guess you are not going to be at the Spring Grand? Bet I can guess who the blowhard was; however don't think anything was contributed to a college fund.


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## Reminton Steele (Nov 10, 2007)

My buddy had the first female titled GRHRC in Canada. All amateured trained. So it can be done. HIGH standards at the line. 

God bless you Tilley.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> I believe handelers do themselves harm, when they accept sloppy standards.
> 
> 
> Gooser


Problem there Gooser, is most handlers dont realize that their standard is sloppy until someone points it out.;-)

I for one haven't seen the acceptance of poor line manners at an HRC event, though my expierence thus far has only been with 2 clubs here in Alaska. Seen lots of dropped dogs for lack of line manners and poor performance in the field, guess maybe it depends on which judges you have some are no doubt gonna be more lax than others. While the standard is set in place already and if it is being deviated by as large a margin as some are saying, then I would be inclined to say something to the judges and the hosting clubs leadership! These kinds of statements and accusations that bring question to wether or not a dog should have or should not have recieved a title have no place, if the standard is followed. Its up to everyone involved to maintain the standard!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Did any of you ever see Top Brass Cotton run?

How do you think Cotton would do today?


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Yes I did, and he would be an outstanding dog today.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

wojo said:


> Yes I did, and he would be an outstanding dog today.


Are you telling me Cottons line manners would pass a Grand test, let alone a finished test?

I must have seen a different Cotton.
Noisey and busy at the line................


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

road kill said:


> Are you telling me Cottons line manners would pass a Grand test, let alone a finished test?
> 
> I must have seen a different Cotton.
> Noisey and busy at the line................


Who gives a FRA about some other dog. The only dog that matters at the line is *YOUR *dog. Will Elvis be ready for the fall Grand? Instead of going watching what goes on at the spring grand and getting ready your gonna have a party....Has Elvis even earned his HRCH yet? The summer is short, Stan. Way short. Good luck. Seriously....JD


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

JDogger said:


> Who gives a FRA about some other dog. The only dog that matters at the line is *YOUR *dog. Will Elvis be ready for the fall Grand? (You should heed your own advice and not give a FRA about me & Elvis) Instead of going watching what goes on at the spring grand and getting ready your gonna have a party (Do you have something against nice people getting together and having a good time?) ....Has Elvis even earned his HRCH yet? (NO, Elvis hasn't "EVEN" earned his HRCH yet) The summer is short, Stan. Way short. (Do you have any idea of what our training and testing calendar looks like?) Good luck. Seriously....JD (Thanks for the wishes, we need all the help we can get!)


Brief Hi-Jack to clarify;

In regard to the OP and how Cotton figures in, I had a nice GR in those days.
We ran a couple Derbys.
To us at that time Cotton was the gold standard, so we went to watch him run.
It was at WISAM & WATKC or Bong.
Cotton was methodical and precise in his marking and equally talented when handled.

The thing I remember was he was a tad busy at the line.

WE also visited the Spring Grand last year at Bong.
The line manner requirements were stringent.
The point was that some *GREAT* dogs may not have been able to get past that.

In fact, I am doubtful we will be able to........as Elvis and I both have adrenaline issue.
OK, maybe me more than Elvis.

I have trained for competition at high levels before and I am fully aware of the dedication, discipline and determination required to achieve the goal.

I marvel at the dogs and their handlers at these venues.
I walk a way determined to work even harder.
You handlers motivate me.
Our goal is to get invited to the Grand.
Pass or fail, we will give it our BEST!!
There is no shame in doing ones best!

NO disrespect was intended to any one or any dog!

Sometimes I think people really work hard to see the worst!
I see greatness in every dog and every handler!



> "What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."
> 
> Ralph Waldo Emerson


I hope to see you all at the Fall Grand in IA!!!!!


PS: The party allows us a chance to go south and get some training in suitable water, as we won't have that here in WI at that time.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

mallardtonetom said:


> Well, I'm right with you Lonnie, To bad you missed listening to the blowhard at the handlers meeting giving everyone a lesson in geometry in how he wanted the blinds judged. Then at the water test site were the blowhard hovered over the judges while they explained the test. I've been field trialing and running hunt teste for 30 years and have never seen two more intimidated judges, they were both physically shaking. Both of the test dogs would have failed occording to the blowhard's definition of a break. Alot of really good dogs were penciled out of this first test. Not what the founders of the HRC envisioned. But I guess we were there to contribute to the blowhard's college fund. T




"they were both physically shaking" Really ?Your so full of crap. These are all grown men and woman you think their that scared of someone at a damn hunt test ? Give me a break. I'm guessing YOUR dog(s) didn't pass ?


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Yes I agree. The organization that was "*Conceived by Hunters for Hunters"* seems to have drifted far off course. But, this is just the opinion of one hunter.
> 
> Lonnie Spann



Drifted off course because they want a dog under control at it highest level ? hmmm


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Lonnie has discribed his perspective and experience, why try to pick a fight with him?


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

So is the idea- that when you say heal coming out of the holding blind that the dog stays by your side as you walk and not beat you to the line?
and when you get to the line you say "sit", and the dog keeps his/her butt on the ground for the marks?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

BlaineT said:


> So is the idea- that when you say heal coming out of the holding blind that the dog stays by your side as you walk and not beat you to the line?
> and when you get to the line you say "sit", and the dog keeps his/her butt on the ground for the marks?


Yes, and evidently his toenails too.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

BlaineT said:


> So is the idea- that when you say heal coming out of the holding blind that the dog stays by your side as you walk and not beat you to the line?
> and when you get to the line you say "sit", and the dog keeps his/her butt on the ground for the marks?


Yes! This is from their rule book. *The Finished Hunting Retriever must respond
promptly to either voice or whistle commands and
remain steady and under control at all times* Remember the gun safety. There were some questionable runs. IMHO Better to keep your dog to this standard anyways, less to undo later on. *"sit means sit"* IMHO


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Here is a quote out of the Seminar book, addressing Control.

"While the SEASONED dog must be on lead comming to and from the retrieving line, the HRC rulebook, on page 31 (Might have changed) 

*Manners and Control
*Seasoned, Finished, Grand, and Uplan Hunting Reterirvers should walk quietly off lead, sit quietly in any position designated by the handler, and Honor(when required) in a quiet nature.
*

Also the Seminar states 
*"Finished judges should remind handlers of need to demonstrate control comming to the line. Poor control should be a markdown,, and out of control a failer"

So,, at the grand,,,, Big field of dogs, the already stated policy of Judges being required to tell handlers IMMEDIATLY when they have Failed ANY portion of a test,,, There is a Standard for all dogs getting to the line under control. It progressivly gets more strict as you advance in level
Per the Seminar again:
"Retrievers shal be evaluated for control in EVERY catagory.(Manners and Obedience, Steadiness, Respose to direction Delivery.)The amount of control requiredd INCREASES as the retriever moves up in class.(i.e. a Finished Retriever will be required to exhibit more control than a Started Retriever.)
Hyperactivity, wildnes,Jumping about,Barking,Excessive disobedience, *LETHARGY AND/OR LACK OF INTREST* are undesirable traits of a hunting retriever."

(Hrc doesnt want to see piggy dogs either)

So,The Grand dog, being what it is, should demonstrate per RULE, and Suggestion from the seminar the utmost example in control of ALL levels.
It should Heel to the line obediently, not requiring muliple commands, it should "Sit" when told, and NOT MOVE, without repeated commands. This GRAND dog, is the SHOWCASE of the HRC Culture.. Best of the best... The RULES ans Seminar supports evaluation of control in its testing program..
Handlers that take the time to read the rules, and attend a seminar, then dont uphold those standars in their training, and either accept it when a lienient Judge passes with poor control,, ORRRRRR ,,Complains when a Judge Fails them for Lack of control, Doesnt understand ,,or hasnt comprehended the rules,, or,,has been given Bad advice as to what you can get away with on weekend tests..

Its YOUR dog!! Its YOUR responsiblity..

I just got chewed out about this today, with my new pup!!
My Old habits die hard...

JMHDAO

GOOSER


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I agree that the HRC doesn't want piggy dogs. How many dogs are dropped at the Grand for coming to the line with head down & tail between legs?


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Will answer/respond to posts tomorrow. Currently have poor Internet service...at HRC hunt test, getting closer to my "free" jacket.

Lonnie STILL PISSED OFF AT HRC GRAND COMMITTEE Spann


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Will answer/respond to posts tomorrow. Currently have poor Internet service...at HRC hunt test, getting closer to my "free" jacket.
> 
> Lonnie STILL PISSED OFF AT HRC GRAND COMMITTEE Spann


I think you should burn the coat in protest. Like the Cleveland fans burned their Lebron jerseys.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Will answer/respond to posts tomorrow. Currently have poor Internet service...at HRC hunt test, getting closer to my "free" jacket.
> 
> Lonnie STILL PISSED OFF AT HRC GRAND COMMITTEE Spann


Give it a rest. Go easy on yourself. Enjoy life!!!!


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

*Maintaining The Standard*

It's too bad Lonnie had such a bad reaction (and tough trip). But when I wrote "it is what it is" many posts back, what was in my head is that the HRC Grand Hunt Test derives its "grandness" beyond weekend tests by applying what I consider very very strict obedience (or manners) standards. At least that was my impression from the two I attended. I didn't see increased technical difficulty in the field. If you agree that this is very "grand" (or prestigious) and go expecting that, ya get what ya paid for. It's not "bad" if that's what you want, but folks should go understanding the "grand" standard. It's only bad if you don't understand that going in. (But that's the way some of us learn... ;-) .) What happened to Lonnie is what I would expect. I'm not interested.

I haven't been to the AKC/HT Master National, but my second hand impression is that they add some technical difficulty to the weekend standard. (It's possible I'm miss-informed.) In any case, enormous events aren't my cup of tea. (Our club has had a LOT of variation in the weekend AKC/HT technical difficulty.)

NAHRA ran the first "national" HT in 1987. Thirty dogs were invited - all expenses paid. The judging was a disaster - it started with a shot flyer quad with selection. For many years after that, the NAHRA Invitational tried to maintain the NAHRA Standard at the Invitational, but with everything first class - good birds, grounds, etc., NOT higher/harder/stricter standards. They fought the strong temptation to introduce various kinds of "competition" into it and still had some very nice events. (I ran one, and failed on the final blind, judged one, attended part of many.) I don't know if that's still NAHRA's approach, but they have not been successful in developing their business model like HRC and AKC. To me, this approach makes sense for a program that runs "against a standard" - but once you get above 100 dogs, maybe you just can't resist some sort of elimination.

==

Of course, maybe I didn't understand. The field test I attended in Yorkshire (England) was interesting, but I didn't understand the judging - even after a brief conversation with the judge. Maybe ya just gotta run stuff and fail...???


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I find it hard to believe there isn't some video on this. I sure would like to see it before I cast judgement pro or con.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I love when people express their opinion and some of you guys just thrash them. I have witnessed 2 grands and felt some of the stuff I saw was just stupid in my opinion. But once again that was my opinion.


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## BAYDOG (May 30, 2009)

So you never were told what really DQ'ed ya then??


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> Drifted off course because they want a dog under control at it highest level ? hmmm


I think what we are all talking about is what "under control" actually means and should mean. I have no dog in this fight, literally, because we would have to start out with a cattle prod to even start to get my dog screwed down as tight as he would apparently need to be at a Grand, so even if we were to somehow accidentally qualify I'm not interested in that. 

If you have a good test set up, a dog that is truly out of control will likely eliminate itself anyway. If a judge were to let that happen, it seems to me that these types of incidents and arguments would go down dramatically. 

I have trained with Lonnie and Jack, and I would be proud to run Jack myself.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

The funny part of all this is that The Grand Standard of OB will take care of itself as the week goes by. It never fails that the dogs that are out of control can only be reigned in for a short while. The stress and excitement of the length the event itself takes a toll on all dogs. I just see (IMHO) the idea that the dogs shoulders should not get in front of your leg as you heel to the bucket as a way to eliminate dogs. If there are too many dogs that you don't even won't to see some of them work find a way to limit entries.


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## Jim Thompson (Feb 25, 2003)

BrettG said:


> The dogs shoulders should not get in front of your leg as you heel to the bucket


That is my standard. The Grand is more leanient. Check out the 2012 spring and fall videos on YouTube and you will see good examples of dogs meeting the standard.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

perhaps they need to requalify every year. or have a couple of mini grands during the year with way tougher standards than a regular finished test


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## mallardtonetom (Apr 19, 2011)

Guess you would have to of been there. They weren't judging for themselves. They had the rep over thier shoulders every minute. and making plenty of comments. A woose is a woose


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I attended the West Mississippi Hunt Test this past weekend in Vicksburg, MS. I had a great time. Most of the dogs in my flight passed the test both days, including my dog. The judges were fair, however I am thankful that this weekend test was "watered-down" had my flight been judged by "Grand" standards I don't think but maybe two dogs would have passed and mine would not have been one of them!

My problem with the Grand is that a Grand judge will pass a Finished dog at a weekend hunt test but fail the very same dog for the very same performance at the Grand. Now before some smartass wants proof, here it is...one of my judges at the Grand, a very nice gentleman, judged my dog only a month or so prior to last year's Fall Grand and we passed the test easily. 

The purpose of this post was to share with everyone my experience at the Grand. I have been there, I have lived the experience and didn't like it, therefore I won't be back. I'm not here to encourage anyone to run the Grand and I am not here to discourage anyone from running the Grand. For those of you who just have a tough time swallowing all of this, just don't thimk my version of the story is accurate, or perhaps think I have an axe to grind with the HRC Grand Committee, all I can tell you is this...some people you can tell them the electric fence will shock them and they will avoid it, some people can watch others get shocked by the electric fence and they will avoid it, *but some people just have to piss on the fence themselves to find out that it will shock them! 
*

The HRC Grand is a 220 volt electric fence, be careful!

Lonnie Spann


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

BrettG said:


> I love when people express their opinion and some of you guys just thrash them. I have witnessed 2 grands and felt some of the stuff I saw was just stupid in my opinion. But once again that was my opinion.


LOL. One of the most important unwritten rules of RTF: if one even hints that the HRC is not the most perfect exactly like real hunting organization past present or future, the dog pile begins.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So Lonnie,, let me ask you this.

Do you feel its the Grand Judges being to strict upholding a SIMILAR standard between Finished and Grand,, or the weekend Finished judges turning a blind eye to the standard, and being to lienient?

I have been told by many that my HRCH title means nothing!! Simply because of the incosistencies of the weekend judging.

I have decided, its MY responsiblity to hold the dog to a standard..Not worry about what a judge thinks...If that standard is held to a high degree,, there will never be a question..

Watch the Pro trained dog... They train that obedience of getting TO and AT the line for a reason. Its not primaritly to impress the judges,, its more about helping the dog to mark, and focus...
Many say that their "loose dog" can mark and focus just fine,, Maybe so,,but in most cases, a dog that is in control right out of the last holding blind,, and understands "sit means sit"will have a better chance at seeing and marking falls,, and be more co- operative running blinds...

I was one of those handlers at a weekend finished test,, that would repeat "heel" several timesgettingto the line.. I would pretty much Yell "sit" as I was shooting marks also.. I wouls pass these tests under the guise of being able to Talk to the dog.. But,, The rules clearly state that repeated commands,, and unnecessary noise was absolutly an act that would warrent failer... I ask you again... WHO was at fault????

Those habits haunt me to this very day..

Gooser


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## Olddog (Feb 28, 2009)

I think that one issue with any situation where a person & their dog is under judgement is that in many cases it is viewed through their own eyes. An impartial observer can ask about how the dog did & many times receive a different answer, than what actually happened.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Olddog said:


> I think that one issue with any situation where a person & their dog is under judgement is that in many cases it is viewed through their own eyes. An impartial observer can ask about how the dog did & many times receive a different answer, than what actually happened.



Very True!

This past weekend. We ran a double.
Go bird at about 150, memory bird at about 75 yrds or so.

My dog is just kinda starting doubles... MY movements and actions at the line are NOT good...
I ran the set up.

After I got done,, and put the watered dog away, I came back to the line and gallery.

I was told..... "You stand right there looking at the dog,, and you let her move and break "sit"...

I couldnt remember doing that, In fact,, Ithought she sat really well.
(nerves I guess)

Lainee told me she took a video of us with my phone,, and I would see it when I got home..

I watched it this A.M. 
Indeed I did let the dog move!! Her right front foot came off the ground and moved....!!!

Its all about standards.. For what I am use to,, this dog,,,, I FEEL,,,, is pretty steady.. In others eyes, that I highly respect,, she isnt..
I was told,, "You want the HEAD ONLY to move... No feet,,, NO reposition.. " 
"if you let the dog think its OK to move feet and reposition,, you end up with a dog that THINKS it cant just move its head between marks!!,, so it Wants to move...

Sit Means Sit!!

Its hard to understand even when you try.ESPECIALLY if you have bad habits as a Handler to begin with..

So,,, Think about HRC,, the rules alow the dog to swing with the gun! The rules allow a reposition!! Judges interpretation of what those terms mean vary quite a bit. Their OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS come into play....
But ,,the Venue also wants a well mannered dog getting to and AT the line.. A controlled break in Finished can get you dropped.. It Wiill at the Grand!!
Now,,,, What does a Particular Judge call a controlled break??? I now call it MOVEMENT forward of any kind.. Or,,, lets just say I's tryin to...
If you take ownership in YOUR dogs standars,,, its easier to meet VENUE standards,,, and you end up with a dog that "Sits" and pays attention.

Its VERY hard to do.. Especially if you have been coached differently in the past..
Its all about what you see...

Gooser


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

It sounds like at the grand the marks and blinds are by invitation only you must first pass the OB part of it. So maybe they should have the first series in an OB ring then if you pass there you can go out to the field and run the marks and blinds


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Scott Parker said:


> It sounds like at the grand the marks and blinds are by invitation only you must first pass the OB part of it. So maybe they should have the first series in an OB ring then if you pass there you can go out to the field and run the marks and blinds



I agree 100%

Lonnie Spann


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> It sounds like at the grand the marks and blinds are by invitation only you must first pass the OB part of it. So maybe they should have the first series in an OB ring then if you pass there you can go out to the field and run the marks and blinds



NOOO!!
Per rules..

You can fail a test by not meeting the standard of *any portion* of the test.
Getting TO the line, is part of the standard. You MUST show control getting there. They are specific of what that control encompasses.
The seminar also teaches judges that they prefere that handlers are notified AS SOON AS they Fail any part of a test..

So,, If you dont come to the line under control,, (Subjective remember) You MIGHT just FAIL under SOME judges...

If those Judges follow the recomendations of the Seminar they inform you right then,,,,,, you are done,,, 

so again,,,,How do you prepare your dog?

Gooser


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

scott parker said:


> it sounds like at the grand the marks and blinds are by invitation only you must first pass the ob part of it. So maybe they should have the first series in an ob ring then if you pass there you can go out to the field and run the marks and blinds


HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! :shock:


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

It's to bad they don't let the dog run the marks and blinds and then make a decision I would hate to see a really talented dog fail for not heeling properly before they got to see what it's made of. I wouldn't have a problem with them marking down for line manners but they shouldn't DQ you before they get to see the dog work. If the dog does outstanding in the field that should carry you even if your line manners aren't up to their standards. I would think marking,style and train ability/control running blinds would be of more importance then if your dog heeled a little to far in front of you. If the dog has really atrocious line manners then I can see DQing them.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Scott Parker said:


> It's to bad they don't let the dog run the marks and blinds and then make a decision I would hate to see a really talented dog fail for not heeling properly before they got to see what it's made of. I wouldn't have a problem with them marking down for line manners but they shouldn't DQ you before they get to see the dog work. If the dog does outstanding in the field that should carry you even if your line manners aren't up to their standards. I would think marking,style and train ability/control running blinds would be of more importance then if your dog heeled a little to far in front of you. If the dog has really atrocious line manners then I can see DQing them.


Guess the question is what is atrocious line manners.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Jeff I think if their line manners are bad enough that they would be DQ'ed most everyone there would be able to see it and agree. But if the dog is heeling a little to far ahead or it creeps a little let the dog run and see what it's got. I know you have to draw the line some where but don't nit pick.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

this thread has gone on way to long without someone asking the question. Before I ask the question I wasn't there, haven't seen a video, nor have I heard an opinion other than Lonnie's. I might have missed a post since thhis is a long running thread and I am not taking a shot at you Lonnie.


Was anyone there that saw Lonnie run, well not run, and will post their thoughts of a pass or fail. Cajones required and sorry if I missed where someone posted about the performance.

Again not a shot at you Lonnie genuinely interested.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

From the rule book. Being this is the first part of the test, they can/should fail a dog for not completing this part accordingly.

IV. The Judge should look for the dog that walks obediently
to the line, sits obediently and exhibits an attentive
attitude.

With that said, I would at least like them to let you complete/attempt the 1st series. When I ran in the Grand, I was failed due to control at the line and was actually surprised they let me run the blind. When they came up to tell me to honor on lead, I said, "no $#!t". The judges got a good laugh out of that one. I have no problem with the Grand. I had a good time. I just hate it takes so dang long to run. I'll probably see whoever at the Grand when it is back in GA. My biggest suggestion is to go with more than one bullet in your gun.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

As far as the weekend test not being judged the same as the Grand, the below excerpt from the rule book says it should not be, at least it does to me.

4. CONTROL
Control covers most of the trainable attributes of a
good hunting retriever, including manners, obedience,
steadiness, response to directions, and delivery. A retriever
must be under some degree of control if it is to be a
useful tool in retrieving downed game. At the Started level,
a good deal of leeway is granted the retriever, but at the
Seasoned, Finished, Grand and Upland Hunter levels,
*control must be considered with increasing importance*.
Judges must ask themselves if they would spend time in
a blind or boat with this retriever


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Guess the question is what is atrocious line manners.


this? Lonnie was your dog like this at the Grand? fast forward to the 1:50 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNPRDwVMWw

disclaimer - no disrepect whatsoever to this dog/owner in the vid. Personally i love his desire!! I'd buy him in a minute if wife would allow another one.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> Many say that their "loose dog" can mark and focus just fine,, Maybe so,,but in most cases, a dog that is in control right out of the last holding blind,, and understands "sit means sit"will have a better chance at seeing and marking falls,, and be more co- operative running blinds...
> Gooser


If this is the case, and I believe it is, why not let the dog put itself out because it didn't see a fall or because it wasn't cooperative running blinds? Unless the dog is just acting like an idiot and there is no question that the dog is not under control and obedient.

I hope you know that I am not trying to argue with you. You have a valid point, but I am not sure the dog training community as a whole would be better served by letting the dogs eliminate themselves by their performance in the field if at all possible. I sometimes wonder why a lot of us by dogs that are bred to be wild about birds and then spend so much time on force or compulsion training only to meet ourselves coming around the corner with this line manners issue.

And I didn't come up with the cattle prod reference on my own. I was told that by a good friend and training mentor as he was letting me know that my dog would never make it at the Grand because he would never have the requisite line manners. It's probably because my dog's handler is inexperienced and an idiot on top of that. He really deserves better.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

jpws said:


> this? Lonnie was your dog like this at the Grand? fast forward to the 1:50 mark.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNPRDwVMWw
> 
> disclaimer - no disrepect whatsoever to this dog/owner in the vid. Personally i love his desire!! I'd buy him in a minute if wife would allow another one.



Jpws, 

My dog has never been vocal and no that was not how he acted at the Grand.

However, that is pretty much how he acted this past weekend.

Lonnie Spann


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

My question for the OP would be how many times did you say "Heel" or any other word to control the dog and how did the dog respond. From what it sounds like to me, it can either be:
1. Dog was loose or out of control and nothing was done about it, or
2. Dog was given commands to bring it under control and it disobeyed.
Without being there it is so hard to tell the real issue, if any. One of my friends ran this event and he came back and told me the judge spoke up after he finished running and said "You know I could fail you for all the times you said heel or here to that dog before you ran the blind". My buddies response was " well how else am I supposed to line him up correctly if that is how I taught him". I guess the judge expected the dog to line up perfectly the first time without any pushing or pulling.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

RetrieverNation said:


> My question for the OP would be how many times did you say "Heel" or any other word to control the dog and how did the dog respond. From what it sounds like to me, it can either be:
> 1. Dog was loose or out of control and nothing was done about it, or
> 2. Dog was given commands to bring it under control and it disobeyed.
> Without being there it is so hard to tell the real issue, if any. One of my friends ran this event and he came back and told me the judge spoke up after he finished running and said "You know I could fail you for all the times you said heel or here to that dog before you ran the blind". My buddies response was " well how else am I supposed to line him up correctly if that is how I taught him". I guess the judge expected the dog to line up perfectly the first time without any pushing or pulling.


To be honest I don't remember how many times I said "Heel". I do know that I said it when I came out of the last holding blind and when I sat down on the bucket I said "sit". 

Lonnie Spann


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## knash3 (May 17, 2012)

Lonnie Spann, could you have possibly predicted the PR this thread would create for you? 8 seconds at the line, forever famous in RTF...


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Lonnie Spann said:


> To be honest I don't remember *how many times I said "Heel".* I do know that I said it when I came out of the last holding blind and when I sat down on the bucket I said "sit".
> 
> Lonnie Spann


The handler was trying to line up line up for the blind, he said heel 5 or 6 times and my co-judge ask why he was making him mark his dog down for refusals with all the HEEL"S ..The handler replied with out taking an eye off the dog " he has moved a quarter of inch each time I have said heel..." BACK...Steve S


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> If this is the case, and I believe it is, why not let the dog put itself out because it didn't see a fall or because it wasn't cooperative running blinds? Unless the dog is just acting like an idiot and there is no question that the dog is not under control and obedient.
> 
> I hope you know that I am not trying to argue with you. You have a valid point, but I am not sure the dog training community as a whole would be better served by letting the dogs eliminate themselves by their performance in the field if at all possible. I sometimes wonder why a lot of us by dogs that are bred to be wild about birds and then spend so much time on force or compulsion training only to meet ourselves coming around the corner with this line manners issue.
> 
> And I didn't come up with the cattle prod reference on my own. I was told that by a good friend and training mentor as he was letting me know that my dog would never make it at the Grand because he would never have the requisite line manners. It's probably because my dog's handler is inexperienced and an idiot on top of that. He really deserves better.


I am one who thinks a dog should be judged as to what it does in the field...
but,, I dont think Judges (and handlers) should allow activities that go against the rules,, and that TRAIN bad habits!!

That being said... Folks,, READ the rules of the Venue you are going to run in!!

If you do,, you see what the VENUE expects... prepare the dog accordingly..

As far as the comment about specific dogs breeding...

I think that an excuse!! an excuse that guys use that let let things slip from the get go.....
a standard should be in place from day 1.. and consistently enforced... not matter what venue you run..

I am gulity of all of the above..

My past dogs breeding caused the problem,,,

The jusges really dont enforce that creep,, so go ahead and run!

I ran tests to early,, and the dog really wasnt prepared correctly before I ran..

I am trying now to do things differently,,, But I very much doubt you will se Gooser at a HT very soon...
neither of us are even closly ready..

In the past with this present dog,, I would have had her in seasoned HRC tests,, and puffin my chest out if she passed 1 or 2..

Big picture regards:

Gooser


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I just want to know is Lonnie Spann his real name?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Scott Parker said:


> I just want to know is Lonnie Spann his real name?


Guess I gotta google 2012 grand and see.

Lawyer up regards,


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Guess I gotta google 2012 grand and see.
> 
> Lawyer up regards,


Tim I just heard from his lawyer and yes it is his real name. Well at least under the witness protection act it is.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Scott Parker said:


> I just want to know is Lonnie Spann his real name?


Yep 187 b Lonnie is real. Thinking about asking if I can sign a retainer.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

jpws said:


> this? Lonnie was your dog like this at the Grand? fast forward to the 1:50 mark.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNPRDwVMWw
> 
> disclaimer - no disrepect whatsoever to this dog/owner in the vid. Personally i love his desire!! I'd buy him in a minute if wife would allow another one.


The dog in that video is fixable. Not sure about the handler.  (who also claims the reason the dog is like this is due to FF. )


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Off the topic a bit but not much, but how many dogs go out of the MN because of line manners?
I guess this technically falls under trainability. 
Inquiring minds want to know.
And Mike Perry is my real name.
MP


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

I also would like to know if the judging at the MN is different from a weekend judging. Does a dog at weekend get away with more, or allowed to hunt a little longer, or get a few more bad casts than the dogs at the MN?

The grand is what it is, people know that, so why cry about it. You know your line manners will be judged harder, but not excessively in this last grand. Sorry Lonnie your dog was excited and jumping around as you stated. You can try again or complain about it. You weren't screwed, you didn't do what was expected. I'm sure the wait didn't help with the excitement, but not sure what could have been done differently at that point.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Jeff Huntington said:


> I also would like to know if the judging at the MN is different from a weekend judging. Does a dog at weekend get away with more, or allowed to hunt a little longer, or get a few more bad casts than the dogs at the MN?


Although this is only hearsay, as I have not experienced a MN, yes, the judging is different, and more strict at MN than a weekend hunt test.

Some of the reports that came back from the last MN was that there were judges that were dropping dogs after a series because they missed a point of grass on the blind by 1 foot, even though they were well within the "normally" acceptable cone when running blinds. This was in the first series, with a very clean set of marks.

I also heard a report that one set of judges indicated that if any handlers gave an over cast to get the dog off of the point would be dropped because it was cheating the blind.

Now, again, this is all hearsay. One directly from a training group friend who saw it, and the other from hearsay from others. You would not see either of these in a weekend test.

BUT, as you said with the Grand, it is also the same at MN. It is, what it is. 

Train, don't complain.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Zman1001 said:


> I also heard a report that one set of judges indicated that if any handlers gave an over cast to get the dog off of the point would be dropped because it was cheating the blind.
> 
> Now, again, this is all hearsay. One directly from a training group friend who saw it, and the other from hearsay from others. You would not see either of these in a weekend test.
> 
> ...


Really?? If your hearsay is correct then those judges were DUMBAS***s


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree with a great deal of what you are saying, but I think we may be conflating our standard as a handler with "the standard" as set out by two judges. And let's face it: a handler can read the rules all he or she wants, but "the standard" on a given day at a given test, from JH to the Grand, is what the judges say it is.

It seems to me that this inherent friction between the rules, the standard that day, and my standard would be better exposed by a dog's work in the field. Case in point that is coming for me is the flyer crate. If my dog won't no off the crate, that could be a lack of trainability for sure. But if he misses one of the other marks while staring at the big yellow crate, he will put himself out by a giant hunt, having to be handled to the mark he missed seeing, or just showing that he has no idea where the bird is. If he does one of those things, what can I complain about?

Now, I would wholeheartedly agree that if my dog beats me to the line by 20 feet, will not be still to the point he is obnoxious, and/or will not be quiet to the same point, then he needs to be DQd, as no one wants to be in a blind with that dog. I can't believe I just jinxed myself like that. But what is "obnoxious"? I bet my definition is different from yours.

The discussion embodied in this thread has turned out to be well worth having, IMHO.



MooseGooser said:


> I am one who thinks a dog should be judged as to what it does in the field...
> but,, I dont think Judges (and handlers) should allow activities that go against the rules,, and that TRAIN bad habits!!
> 
> That being said... Folks,, READ the rules of the Venue you are going to run in!!
> ...


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Yep 187 b Lonnie is real. Thinking about asking if I can sign a retainer.


He was in my flight. B182 here.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> He was in my flight. B182 here.


Dwayne,

I think I ran a couple of marks and blinds with you and one of your friends one morning in the field across from the hotel. I was the one driving the dark brown Dodge 2500.

Lonnie


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Oh yeah. You had your wife with you right ?


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> Oh yeah. You had your wife with you right ?


Right, that was me.

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> Heres what I said!
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I would have to disagree with this. I have NEVER failed a Finished test for my dog's behavior going to the line. I didn't even get to see a mark at the Grand because of the way my dog went to the line.

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

duk4me said:


> this thread has gone on way to long without someone asking the question. Before I ask the question I wasn't there, haven't seen a video, nor have I heard an opinion other than Lonnie's. I might have missed a post since thhis is a long running thread and I am not taking a shot at you Lonnie.
> 
> 
> Was anyone there that saw Lonnie run, well not run, and will post their thoughts of a pass or fail. Cajones required and sorry if I missed where someone posted about the performance.
> ...


duk4me,

I wish someone would reply to this. On my walk of shame back to the truck SEVERAL folks inquired as to what happened. One such fellow was a judge who had judged a grand in the past and he told me that he never failed a dog for heeling the way my dog did.

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

knash3 said:


> Lonnie Spann, could you have possibly predicted the PR this thread would create for you? 8 seconds at the line, forever famous in RTF...


knash3,

No I didn't. However, I'm not one to take credit where credit isn't due, therefore I must admit, I don't think I was at the line for the full 8 second ride!

Lonnie Spann


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## Marsh Mule (Oct 16, 2009)

Lonnie Spann said:


> knash3,
> 
> No I didn't. However, I'm not one to take credit where credit isn't due, therefore I must admit, I don't think I was at the line for the full 8 second ride!
> 
> Lonnie Spann


Well, I doubt it is any consolation to you now, but it sounds like your dog may have made the 8 seconds even if you only made 5. Go hang’em high in Texas this spring


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Sharon Potter said:


> The dog in that video is fixable. Not sure about the handler.  (who also claims the reason the dog is like this is due to FF. )


Ha Ha! Look a little familiar? I will have to remember that "reason"!


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm curious about this. Is it considered a refusal if heel is repeated while lining up for a blind? If so how freaking stupid. Talk about penalizing a well trained dog.


steve schreiner said:


> The handler was trying to line up line up for the blind, he said heel 5 or 6 times and my co-judge ask why he was making him mark his dog down for refusals with all the HEEL"S ..The handler replied with out taking an eye off the dog " he has moved a quarter of inch each time I have said heel..." BACK...Steve S


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> I'm curious about this. Is it considered a refusal if heel is repeated while lining up for a blind? If so how freaking stupid. Talk about penalizing a well trained dog.


Not in my book.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

claimsadj said:


> I'm curious about this. Is it considered a refusal if heel is repeated while lining up for a blind? If so how freaking stupid. Talk about penalizing a well trained dog.



Told to nheel 5-6 times, Well trained ? hmmmm


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> Told to nheel 5-6 times, Well trained ? hmmmm


Depends.....................


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> Told to nheel 5-6 times, Well trained ? hmmmm


Did you not notice it was while lining the dog up to run a blind? Pay attention, you may learn something. ;-)


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Margo Ellis said:


> Not in my book.


Nor mine. Do what you need to do to line the dog properly for a blind.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> I'm curious about this. Is it considered a refusal if heel is repeated while lining up for a blind? If so how freaking stupid. Talk about penalizing a well trained dog.





> Originally Posted by *steve schreiner*
> _The handler was trying to line up line up for the blind, he said heel 5 or 6 times and my co-judge ask why he was making him mark his dog down for refusals with all the HEEL"S ..The handler replied with out taking an eye off the dog " he has moved a quarter of inch each time I have said heel..." BACK...Steve S_





> Told to nheel 5-6 times, Well trained ? hmmmm


Here in the RTF we are getting different opinions on this. It is fair to say that in the AKC hunting test judge's pool there will be a myriad of opinions also. We've gotta live with it and realize not everyone sees things the way I do or you do.

I've spent hours a month for two decades lining up dogs on initial lines for blinds. I'm sure I see things differently than someone on his first dog that a pro trained to a MH level;_ and he/she might be holding the book that weekend_.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

The dog is being lined for a blind. He is heeling when told to do so but is moving in small increments as a well trained dog does. It takes a while to get a dog that will push and pull in small increments like that. I don't see how that is so hard to see. I routinely repeat here and heel to my dogs when lining for a blind and they move with me. If I could tell them to heel and how many inches you would have a point but I can't and you dont. Make sense?


Dwayne Padgett said:


> Told to nheel 5-6 times, Well trained ? hmmmm


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree Howard but that's unfortunate that people with that little dog sense could ever be in that position. I've fooled with dogs for a very short time but something like understanding how a dog is lined for a blind is so elementary I can't imagine someone not getting something so basic.


Howard N said:


> Here in the RTF we are getting different opinions on this. It is fair to say that in the AKC hunting test judge's pool there will be a myriad of opinions also. We've gotta live with it and realize not everyone sees things the way I do or you do.
> 
> I've spent hours a month for two decades lining up dogs on initial lines for blinds. I'm sure I see things differently than someone on his first dog that a pro trained to a MH level;_ and he/she might be holding the book that weekend_.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Lets play scenario time.

your dog has just picked up last bird of a triple.
The next requirement of the test is to run a blind from that same line.
As the dog is returning with the bird, what actions are you taking with YOUR position to aid in the way the dog is lined?
Are you properly facing the blind?Does your dog show Finished Obediance standards?
Will he come directly to Heel and be automatically lined up correctly?
whats with all the fuss at the line, lining the dog?kick the sucker off and Handel the beast

Senario number 2

you have to run the blind first. How do you as a handler approach the line with the dog OBEDIANTLY at heel?

Once you get there did you approach in a manner that once the dog is just told to sit,is he pretty much lined up?

whats all the fuss at the line lining the dog?
kick the sucker off and handle!

Go ahead shoot away , but please use politically correct plastic bullets
We don't want anybody hurt here,

Gooser


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> kick the sucker off and handle!


Maybe for a hunt tester that attitude is fine. But, in a trial where it's my dog's job against all comers I want the absolutely _*best *_blind we are capable of doing. A good clean initial line is the first part of it. Even if you don't get the initial line you wanted the dog should have gotten a better initial line than if you hadn't sweet talked to him, and it'll be a better blind because you've talked him into it. One hopes anyway. Some dogs can get a picture and even if you don't get exactly what you want, you get a better blind because the dog has gotten the picture and has an idea of the blind.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

"kick the sucker off and handle!" 

I see this quite a bit when I judge. It usually results in a so-so blind or worse. Not a good stategy on game day, if you ask me. But then, nobody asked me....-Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So Howard and Paul picked six words from my post and ignored the rest.

I bet MOST guys running HRC tests, would be amazed at Howard as he comes to the line, and his actions and the way he helps his dog through the process.


I have never watched Howard run, but I have watched other FT's.

My point in my response was that I beleive many guys dont think about getting themselves into position to recieve the dog before they run the blind.
If THEY (handler) were lined up correctly,, and thier DOG was OBEDIENT, and honored the Heel command as it returned with that last mark of the triple,,,
there SHOULD be little if Any tweeking and repeating the heel command to get the dog lined up/

Also.. as in the example of a handler having to repete the heel command 5 or 6 times,, if the dog was basically in the correct position to begin with,,, and the first couple of Heel commands didnt get you anything,, what the heck do you think the other 3 or 4 is gonna get you, other than confusion,,?

I think it best in this instance, to kick the dog off and handel... In HUNT TESTS,,, you MAY get a notation on your sheet for a poor initial line, but if you put the dog back on line, and the dog takes those cast and handels ,,, well all is good.

Remember in HRC the is no defined path to the blind., Judging consists of progress towards that destination, with few cast and whistle refusals ....Teamwork ! Holding that FINITE line that Howard works for, is unnecessary in HRC 150 yrd blind work... Lets keep this apples to Apples

JMHDAO.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> "kick the sucker off and handle!"
> 
> I see this quite a bit when I judge. It usually results in a so-so blind or worse. Not a good stategy on game day, if you ask me. But then, nobody asked me....-Paul


Paul

With all due respect, I bet you have also in your judging experience,,seen handlers repete Way too many commands, with absolutly no response from the dog..
What does it gain just repeting them?
What has that shown YOU as a Judge??
What will you then continue to look for.

Hasnt that handler shown you his hand?

I just about bet in a situation of a handler harping on a dog with the heel command, getting no results, with show you all kinds of reasons to drop them,, as the dog fails then to show control on that blind..

Again

JMHDAO

Gooser


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Are you failing to grasp that some dogs have been trained well enough to move in small increments therefore the need to tell them heel or here numerous until you get the proper alignment. Your body position will affect the dogs body position but then comes the fine tuning and the need for the heel and here command to be repeated. Why not line the dog properly before sending instead of just sending and handling as you suggest. Your always on here talking high standards but you half ass line your dog and send him. Keep it up and let us know how that works out for you when you run something other that a finished test. If I'm running a finished blind I'm not sending my dog until I think he's lined up well enough to line it. Some people just can't see the Forrest through the trees.


MooseGooser said:


> Paul
> 
> With all due respect, I bet you have also in your judging experience,,seen handlers repete Way too many commands, with absolutly no response from the dog..
> What does it gain just repeting them?
> ...


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

In the example the rest of us are referencing the dog is responding to the heel command, keep that in mind. We're talking a well trained dog not the average dog at a finished test. This dog is versed in lining and moves small at the line. You seem to be overlooking that small tidbit and it's making your argument get off track. If the dog isint responding to the command as you suggest then I agree it needs to be noted and the team should be penalized to an extent for it, but in this scenario that isint the case. I have two finished level dogs, one is about to begin running the q and the other will be as soon as we're ready coming off of a tplo. They both are good at the line when it comes time to line up for a blind. On any given instance I may say here or heel a half dozen times or more to get th em where I feel they need to be. Yes ive done my part relative to my alignment before i ever have them sit, thats pretty basic. Why do ww in the yard if you aren't going to put it to use. Whether the blind is 100 or 300 I want my dog to be on it and I don't want to have to blow a whistle within the first 50 yds if possible. Ive had that attitude for some time now and they both have turned into quite the lining dogs for someone like me to run. Keep those high standards regards.


MooseGooser said:


> Paul
> 
> With all due respect, I bet you have also in your judging experience,,seen handlers repete Way too many commands, with absolutly no response from the dog..
> What does it gain just repeting them?
> ...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> ....whats all the fuss at the line lining the dog?
> kick the sucker off and handle!.......
> Gooser


Gooser,
what would CL say to you if you asked her this question at your next weekend training day? ;-)


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Howard N said:


> Here in the RTF we are getting different opinions on this. It is fair to say that in the AKC hunting test judge's pool there will be a myriad of opinions also. We've gotta live with it and realize not everyone sees things the way I do or you do.
> 
> I've spent hours a month for two decades lining up dogs on initial lines for blinds. I'm sure I see things differently than someone on his first dog that a pro trained to a MH level;_ and he/she might be holding the book that weekend_.


Or... In an AKC FT, someone who has never run a dog at that level at all. Sometimes they have good dog sense, sometimes they don't. Look out if they have no dog sense , but a strong personality.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

We have put HRCH titles on two trial dogs and AKC Master Hunt test titles on five trial dogs. For the most part never trained in a hunt test mode. Exception was I had to teach them to swing with the gun for the HRCH. I know almost nothing about the Grand except what I have been told. My personal experience with blinds in both venues more so with HRC handling is the rule of thumb even on marks at least in one or two series and still pass. Field trial blind handling is all about a straight line or working through great hazards. Critical lining is what it is all about, setting up the dog before sending to get a good initial line. Many of the hunt test dogs could never pass muster in a field trial senarios especially in water with their blind work. It doesn't mean hunt test dogs are not well schooled,but, handling is accepted standard.
I for the most part always used field trial blind trial standards when running hunt tests.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> So Howard and Paul picked six words from my post and ignored the rest.
> 
> I bet MOST guys running HRC tests, would be amazed at Howard as he comes to the line, and his actions and the way he helps his dog through the process.
> 
> ...


I agree with Howard pretty much 100%, you are looking for the best possible blind in a trial and especially a good initial line since the judges will give the Blue to the best dog. 
Testers are frequently fine with kicking off and handling because they get a PIL well then it is likely just a note on the sheet. HT's are run to a standard, but what few take time to think about the standard is, and it is actually the bubble dog which is the minimum standard. If you are out to win then it is a little different approach.
Kind if like taking your appendix out with a steak knife as opposed to a scalpel.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Here is an Interesting thread with many judges contributing, discussing IL.


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?93812-MH-Blind-poor-initial-line

Let me ask this,, you fool with the dog at the line a lot trying to get that perfect alignment. With the admittence from the previous post that the dog had to be commanded to Heel 5 or 6 times, what if when you think all is fine, and because of the pressure you put on the dog foolin around with him, when you finally DECIDED TO SEND,,, the dog doesnt go??? HE'S CONFUSED, STRESSED, DOESNT UNDERSTAND?? He is Lethargic with his attitude! 
Not to worry,,, He will feel more comfortable back at the truck..

At A test (NOT A TRIAL),, I dont think its worth taking that chance. 
I will do my best to be facing the blind, I will have an Obedient dog that Heels with me to the line, returns from marks, and re heels annd positions perfectly.
I may give a quiet adjustment with my hand and a "here" command if needed,, but then,, I am sending,, and gonna Challenge that blind from that point on..

Thank You!!

Gooser
In TRAINING


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Then in that case you have a dog that is out of balance and have holes in your training. I can talk to mine and fine tune til I'm blue in the face. The longer I wait to send the more fired up they get. It sounds like you've stumbled onto something to shore up. If they get nervous your job is to be a calming influence. Over time they figure out its ok and more time doesn't mean trouble. Unless of course you're losing your cool at the line with them and get frustrated because you can't get them exactly where you want. If you ever get that dog that automatically heels and lines perfect for the blind by himself I want to see it.


MooseGooser said:


> Here is an Interesting thread with many judges contributing, discussing IL.
> 
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?93812-MH-Blind-poor-initial-line
> ...


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

At A test (NOT A TRIAL),, I dont think its worth taking that chance. 
I will do my best to be facing the blind, I will have an Obedient dog that Heels with me to the line, retu
I may give a quiet adjustment with my hand and a "here" command 
Challenge that blind from that point on..

Thank You!!

Gooser
In TRAINING[/QUOTE]

Never had a no go, ever, at a field trial or hunt test blind. A few confusions on marks.

It's called sweating the dog in training. If one is worried about no goes then perhaps one should revisit their training.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

The dog has to be well enough trained to understand the differences in fine lining, and thus having that level of training and understanding he is not confused or stressed and does understand and likely leaves like he sees red meat on a stick. Walking up, kicking off and handling might be good enough for a $5 ribbon, but probably not a win. It's all in what you're satisfied with, for me the less I have to handle the better I like it.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> So Howard and Paul picked six words from my post and ignored the rest.
> 
> I bet MOST guys running HRC tests, would be amazed at Howard as he comes to the line, and his actions and the way he helps his dog through the process.
> 
> ...


Gooser,

We have been on a roll with posts lately but not this one. First in HRC there will be "no predetermined route" but the dog must make progress towards the blind at all times.

A good handler should ALWAYS take the time to tweek the dog to take that perfect initial line. And there is nothing better than watching a dog that truly lines a blind. That comes with the dog working together with the handler to get that picture in their head.

JMHO.

Janet


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

"Aim small.... Miss small."

I would rather see a handler take his time positioning his dog, making small adjustments, tweaking the positioning to run a blind I have taken the time to construct then just kicking them off and handling within a few feet of the line due to a poor initial line. In trialing, testing or in training maintaining that standard of running straight from the outset contributes to best possible outcome of challenging the line to the blind.

Although this has gotten away from the original topic of the thread, I enjoy these types of discussions. - Brian


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Please remember also,, the thread is about HRC,, and particuarly the Grand in general...

Here is what the Rule book says for HRC blinds..

"Lining the blind is not required. The Finished Hunting retriever SHOULD demonstrate the ability to take an intitial line TOWARD the blind,and a willingness and ability to to respond tocommands from the handler. The Finished retriever must stay under control, and pick up the bird quickly and effieciently. The Judges will not require the retriever to run a predefined route or channel."

It also states.
" The Finished Hunting rtriever can be cast from he line only once. If the Finished retriever is unproductive after the the single attempt, the judge will instruct the handler to pick up the hunting retriever, and that test is failed."

It also states
"Hand signals , voice and whistle commands may be utilisedby the handler to encourage the Finished retriever to perform, however, should excessive handling or noise occurewhich IN THE OPINION OF THE JUDGE would disturb the hunt, the Judges may declare failer of the test..


It also states:
"The maximum Blind retrieve distane will not exceed 100 yrds."

It also states:
"DURING ALL HUNTING TESTS hand signals, voice or whistle commandsmay be utilised by the handler to encourage the finished hunting retriever. The Finished Hunting retriever should demonstrate a PROMPT,AND PRECISE RESPONCE to ALL voice , whistle and directional commands."

Now considering that all this is subjective in nature, meaning, it may vary from different peoples points of view or beliefs...

How are you going to prepare the dog,, and what risks are you willing to take unnecessarily at a test?

Me?,, 
I am going to get my dog pointed in the direction of that *100 yrd blind* with the least amount of messin with her, drop my hand and send.
My initial line by rule only need to be in a direction towards the blind. If I believe it is off a bit, I stay calm and handel...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Please remember also,, the thread is about HRC,, and particuarly the Grand ...


yes please Goose,
the OP started the thread saying how he crashed and burned for not meeting the strict standard from holding blind to line for first set of marks. So, are we to read the same test that makes dog and handler be perfect from blind to line gets miffed when handler and dog try the same perfection when linning for a blind retrieve? Just trying to pick up what your layin' down. When does the shift from total control to just kick um off happen? Do they blow a duck call?;-)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Janet Kimbrough said:


> Gooser,
> 
> We have been on a roll with posts lately but not this one. First in HRC there will be "no predetermined route" but the dog must make progress towards the blind at all times.
> 
> ...



Miss Janet....

I agree with you,,, But it isnt required by rule.
And for Me personally I's not going to take the chance at a test, hounding the dog for perfection..
My Intitial line by rule is towards the blind.
My casts must make progress towards the blind, that has no predefined rout or channel..
See how subjective this all is???
If I have prepared the dog it SHOULD be there.
If it isnt there,, then its in the Hands of the Judges....
We cant , Or shouldnt make it any more than what it is...

With my current project, I hope that by the time I am confidently ready to run tests,, this dog will consistently Line or 1 whistle a 100 yrd blind.
Thats MY Preference,,, NOT the rules...
JMHDAO

Gooser


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I don't even know what to say. The guy that preaches high standards on this site more than anyone else is admitting its nothing more than talk. Is a dog that can run a finished test all you really want? Why not strive for more than that? People are trying to give you good advice and you have made your mind up to be stubborn and shrug it off. One big benefit to having a dog that is under control at the line is the ability to fine line without the dog exploding on you. Its apparent you have not experienced that or you would sing a different tune. If your dog bugs because you take your time when lining for a blind you have serious work to do with that dog. Take the opportunities in training to work on it. When the dog bugs because you are trying to get a really good IL and its taking a few seconds, stroke her head and calm her down. Those are training opportunities that your missing. My guess is in training your dog starts bugging and you get her off the line as quick as possible to avoid it, but what your avoiding is a great training opportunity. Its just like dealing with the bugging in TT, work through it don't avoid it. Dogs don't often come out of the box without the bugging at the line when you start to work on finer lining, its normal for them to feel pressure from it. You have to decide if you are willing to take advice and improve. Isint that what you want, improvement?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gooser, this is meant as a compliment. I am starting to see how you make such beautiful woodwork.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

It sounds like your expectations of your dogs blinds will never lend you to have this kind of success. JMO


MooseGooser said:


> Miss Janet....
> 
> I agree with you,,, But it isnt required by rule.
> And for Me personally I's going to take the chance at a test hounding the dog for perfection..
> ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> yes please Goose,
> the OP started the thread saying how he crashed and burned for not meeting the strict standard from holding blind to line for first set of marks. So, are we to read the same test that makes dog and handler be perfect from blind to line gets miffed when handler and dog try the same perfection when linning for a blind retrieve? Just trying to pick up what your layin' down. When does the shift from total control to just kick um off happen? Do they blow a duck call?;-)


Ken

Dog must come to the line under controll in all HRC level tests..
The control required increases as the level does.
The control to the line at the grand will therefore require more than what a weekend finished test MAY require.
(remember its subjective)

The discussion of lining a dog on a blind becomes a different discussion in that as per the rules I quoted earlier,,, the commands in ALL tests MAY be required to be precise, prompt, and not to disturbing to the hunt.. That includes getting the bird picked up quickly and back to the blind, and on with hunting ducks.

If I confuse the dog, by repeteing commands and hounding him to move, I take the chance of a possible No Go, (despite what others have siad they have never witnessed), a poor intial line anyway cause of confusion, disturbing the hunt,,ect,, ect,, ect,,, all the things that are subjective in nature


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> I don't even know what to say. The guy that preaches high standards on this site more than anyone else is admitting its nothing more than talk. Is a dog that can run a finished test all you really want? Why not strive for more than that? People are trying to give you good advice and you have made your mind up to be stubborn and shrug it off. One big benefit to having a dog that is under control at the line is the ability to fine line without the dog exploding on you. Its apparent you have not experienced that or you would sing a different tune. If your dog bugs because you take your time when lining for a blind you have serious work to do with that dog. Take the opportunities in training to work on it. When the dog bugs because you are trying to get a really good IL and its taking a few seconds, stroke her head and calm her down. Those are training opportunities that your missing. My guess is in training your dog starts bugging and you get her off the line as quick as possible to avoid it, but what your avoiding is a great training opportunity. Its just like dealing with the bugging in TT, work through it don't avoid it. Dogs don't often come out of the box without the bugging at the line when you start to work on finer lining, its normal for them to feel pressure from it. You have to decide if you are willing to take advice and improve. Isint that what you want, improvement?


Your right,,, You got me figgered out...

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> It sounds like your expectations of your dogs blinds will never lend you to have this kind of success. JMO


Thanks again Claimsadj



I am going to take that advice a yours !I need to take a step back and try to improve!! 

Thanks

Gooser


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Hey what are internet friends for. You can do better for yourself and your dogs thats all I'm saying. Dont settle for what a rule book allows and don't avoid tackling the training it takes to have a nice dog. Take that approach and you will get better faster. Good luck with the pups.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

claimsadj said:


> Hey what are internet friends for. You can do better for yourself and your dogs thats all I'm saying. Dont settle for what a rule book allows and don't avoid tackling the training it takes to have a nice dog. Take that approach and you will get better faster. Good luck with the pups.



This is what is so great about RTF..
That is just Great advice..
Thanks again.

Gooser


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Off topic from the OP, but how can you set up a blind and not have a "pre-defined route"? The judges just tell you, theres the bird get there how ever you want?


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## Steven V Zugg (Jul 12, 2006)

The Grand Experience, I can tell you that I have run my share and have titled my dog at this level as well. I have had good experiences and some not so good. That being said, and this post seems to pointing towards blinds. Let me say that there a typlically 3 parts to a blind, the begining, the middle and the end. At the Grand there a 4 parts. Getting to the bucket, the beginning , the middle and the end.
I have seen way more dogs go out at the end of the blind than I have go out coming to or sitting at the bucket!!!
In my opinion, the Grand went through a phase where the "folks" in charge were confused on how to judge blinds. Grand blinds were judged like no others in any other venue. Of late, however; those "folks" have come around to judging a blind as it was intended to be judged. It also seems at times there has been some confusion as to how to judge a dog running a blind when it falls off line due to the factors the judges have put into the blind they are judging. The question being - How did the dog respond to the handler getting out of trouble rather than - good the dog is in trouble - you are out.
In my experience you should always train above the test level you are attempting to run. That being said, train at a qualifing level for the Grand.
Also keep this in mind - no where in the HRC rule book is the word Heel used. The dog is to walk obediantly to and from the line. So just walk to the line - say sit - and smash the test. Remember, this is a sport, and at the end of the day it is just dogs picking sh-- up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Nice post Steve I have great respect for anyone passing the Grand. Like you said, train at a higher level then you are running. Too much Mickey Mouse S--t going on just run the set ups one series at a time and at the end of the day hope you are still in the game. If not, then there is always the next one, if you don't get it this time, ,maybe next time. Politics and poor judging are in all the retriever games. I have had good breaks and bad breaks. If you stay in the dog games long enough you will experience good and bad.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

rboudet said:


> Off topic from the OP, but how can you set up a blind and not have a "pre-defined route"? The judges just tell you, theres the bird get there how ever you want?


Bobby: 

Run right at the stick, make steady progress to the stick, but I can't drop you just for missing hopping over that log at 100 yards. I don't expect "perfection" holding the line, but I do expect "effort." 

Just my shorthand definition.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

rboudet said:


> Off topic from the OP, but how can you set up a blind and not have a "pre-defined route"? The judges just tell you, theres the bird get there how ever you want?


Not off topic Bobby, the thread morphed into intitial lines and blinds came up. Not having a definitive line to a blind is trying to push a rope, it can't truly happen. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, which would be a defined route. This rule is STUPID and should be changed back to "Challenge the Blind" which would then mean if a dog deviates from the defined route, it would be scored lower or failed. It would also penalize Poor Initial Lines more severely, but increase the amount of cream rising to the top.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

I think that wording came into effect (for HT's) because of fence blinds.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

GulfCoast said:


> Bobby:
> 
> Run right at the stick, make steady progress to the stick, but I can't drop you just for missing hopping over that log at 100 yards. I don't expect "perfection" holding the line, but I do expect "effort."
> 
> Just my shorthand definition.


But wouldnt you want them to at least attempt to get over the log? Its part of the test. Say there is a point and all the dogs either got on and wouldnt get off or hooked around the backside to be lost out of site. And someone decides to cast or line away from the danger and does a banana curve into the bird. Thats ok? Instead of challenging the line to the blind.

It would explain a lot of what I see with some HT players running a Q blind for the first time.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

rboudet said:


> But wouldnt you want them to at least attempt to get over the log? Its part of the test. Say there is a point and all the dogs either got on and wouldnt get off or hooked around the backside to be lost out of site. And someone decides to cast or line away from the danger and does a banana curve into the bird. Thats ok? Instead of challenging the line to the blind.
> 
> It would explain a lot of what I see with some HT players running a Q blind for the first time.




Mais, you might jus be onta sumthin der


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

rboudet said:


> But wouldnt you want them to at least attempt to get over the log? Thats ok? Instead of challenging the line to the blind.
> 
> It would explain a lot of what I see with some HT players running a Q blind for the first time.


Yes, I personally expect "effort" to stay on line over the log, over the point, you name it. But, I can't demand "perfection" and drop someone just for missing the point, log etc. With every HT judge I know, you are better off "attacking" the line to the blind, and not being "perfect" but showing effort to stay on line, than you are to "cheat the test." Ask anyone who has ever heard me give my pre-test briefing in the handler's meeting. In either venue.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

GulfCoast said:


> Yes, I personally expect "effort" to stay on line over the log, over the point, you name it. But, I can't demand "perfection" and drop someone just for missing the point, log etc. With every HT judge I know, you are better off "attacking" the line to the blind, and not being "perfect" but showing effort to stay on line, than you are to "cheat the test." Ask anyone who has ever heard me give my pre-test briefing in the handler's meeting. In either venue.


I've been in attendance at your pre-test briefing and all I heard was blah, blah, blah...

Lonnie Spann


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Then it was good experience to prepare you to run the Grand!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

I don't think it should matter what venue your running a blind is a blind and if there are factors included from point A to B you better make every effort to include them, and as it has been said before it doesn't have to be perfect but the effort better be there. With that being said there will always be some judges that sway one way or the other in there definition of the word "challenge". 
I Ran test dog a few years ago in a Finished test with my QAA dog, the blind was at the limit of HRC's yardage rule and there was a point involved, We ran the blind, got on and off the point, and handled him to the bird rather than let him fade downwind and wind the bird at the end. Judge told the handlers " That was a nice blind but this isn't a field trial, just get the bird" After that was said there wasn't a handler all day that even tried to get the point, dogs ended up wide of the point and floated down wind of the bird, in my mind no one ran the blind that was put in front of them, wasn't even fun to watch and in my mind it was the judges fault.

Also remember running a master test that was being judged by a couple of very experienced judges and they made it very clear in the briefing that this was a down the shore blind and they didn't want to see dogs running the bank or going out to sea. 14 dogs to the water blind 4 passed, there were some really ticked off people, but they were the ones who stood there with there hands in there pockets and never blew a whistle.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

GulfCoast said:


> Then it was good experience to prepare you to run the Grand!


All I remember from the Grand pre-test briefing was the following:

Judge: "You will be judged by the Grand standard, and you all know what that is".

Me: "I don't know what the Grand standard is, this is my first Grand."

Judge: "Don't worry we will tell you" (this statement was immediately followed by an outburst of laughter from the handlers).

The rest is history. And I didn't even get a complimentary reach-around!

Lonnie Spann


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Todd Caswell said:


> I Ran test dog a few years ago in a Finished test with my QAA dog, the blind was at the limit of HRC's yardage rule and there was a point involved, We ran the blind, got on and off the point, and handled him to the bird rather than let him fade downwind and wind the bird at the end. Judge told the handlers " That was a nice blind but this isn't a field trial, just get the bird" After that was said there wasn't a handler all day that even tried to get the point, dogs ended up wide of the point and floated down wind of the bird, in my mind no one ran the blind that was put in front of them, wasn't even fun to watch...


Todd,

That was like bringing a NFL quarterback to a high school punt, pass and kick competition! Its no surprise that you were bored. Congrats on the QAA dog.

Lonnie Spann


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

From what I remember the standard was laid out pretty clearly in the briefing.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> From what I remember the standard was laid out pretty clearly in the briefing.



Well Mr. Padgett,

If your memory is so good then you will remember the above conversation verbatem. 

Lonnie Spann


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Judge: "Don't worry we will tell you" (this statement was immediately followed by an outburst of laughter from the handlers).
> 
> The rest is history. And I didn't even get a complimentary reach-around!


Dinner may have been over the top, but, you'd think that common courtesy would demand that they at least kissed you first.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Todd,
> 
> That was like bringing a NFL quarterback to a high school punt, pass and kick competition! Its no surprise that you were bored. Congrats on the QAA dog.
> 
> Lonnie Spann


No No never under estimate a test, we crashed and burned the year befor as test dog on 3 marks that weren't over 50 yards each, handled on 2 of the 3 very humbling.. I still hear about it from time to time..


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## Moosegoosee (Jun 23, 2006)

well this thread gave me the best giggle of the day!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mrs Gooser LOVES it when somebody puts me in my place!!

She has been known to wear a bag over her head in the gallery when I ran our dogs.

Gooser


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Years ago I sat in the gallery watching dogs run Finished and Bob Willett was at the line. He was adjusting his dog in prep of kicking off this dog for the blind. With every tap of the leg or very quiet here this dog adjusted himself about a 1/4 of an inch. A friend I was sitting with leaned over to me and said "you think that is why his dogs line blinds and ours don't?" Anyone who watched Bob run dogs back in the day knows how nicely his dogs performed. At the 1999 Spring Grand he had the only dogs that lined and 1 whislted the water blind in the 4th series. If I remember correctly he had one line it and two one whistle it. If I had to guess the average number of whistles it took for most dogs was somewhere around 8-10.

If your dog is trained to handle being adjusted with prior to a blind it is not a big deal to them at a test. It truly is a beautiful thing to watch a dog line a blind.

Steve Zugg your post was very good. Thanks.

Janet


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## duckheads (Dec 31, 2004)

Lonnie Spann said:


> All I remember from the Grand pre-test briefing was the following:
> 
> Judge: "You will be judged by the Grand standard, and you all know what that is".
> 
> ...


My first HRC National meeting a few years back the president at the time said in a angry voice as things were getting heated, "There is no grand standard, The grand is judged just like any other weekend test."

I have no dog in this fight and have never been to a grand but I was at the National Meeting in Memphis and will never forget the quote above as there was a lot of grumbling after he said it.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wow, I think I'll stick with field trials, sounds less political.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Wow, I think I'll stick with field trials, sounds less political.


Not nearly as bad as a lot of people think John.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Mr Spann
> 
> Your dog failed 2 tests in his career, and ya wanna whine about the Venue.
> 
> ...


There is something not in the book that should be part of the game too and that is spirit of the game. A guy travels hundreds of miles, pays a large entry fee, pays for lodging and meals but doesn't get to, at a minimum, pick up some birds? I'm not disputing line manners but let him or her pick up the birds.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

kjrice said:


> There is something not in the book that should be part of the game too and that is spirit of the game. A guy travels hundreds of miles, pays a large entry fee, pays for lodging and meals but doesn't get to, at a minimum, pick up some birds? I'm not disputing line manners but let him or her pick up the birds.


The inclusion of this simple courtesy would stop most of the Grand nightmare stories.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

fishduck said:


> The inclusion of this simple courtesy would stop most of the Grand nightmare stories.


I believe it was Mark Twain that said "common sense is not so common".
Makes perfect common sense to me.
MP


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

fishduck said:


> The inclusion of this simple courtesy would stop most of the Grand nightmare stories.


The one thing I really liked about the weekend tests was if you failed (other then gun safety) you could still run the rest of the test.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Scott Parker said:


> The one thing I really liked about the weekend tests was if you failed (other then gun safety) you could still run the rest of the test.


Scott, IMHO this holds the judges who actually know and understand how to setup a test back since having to sit through "blood letting" twice in the same day takes up time that could be used to judge dogs that have preformed the work. Increase the standards through call backs, eliminate walk up entries, and dispense with the Kamo Queer dress code and more would play the game because its Not Humting.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Raymond Little said:


> . Increase the standards through call backs, eliminate walk up entries, and dispense with the Kamo Queer dress code and more would play the game because its Not Humting.


Then they would be mimicking that other venue. 

Lonnie Spann


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> The one thing I really liked about the weekend tests was if you failed (other then gun safety) you could still run the rest of the test.


You can't do that with a Grand but at least let the dog finish that test.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

kjrice said:


> You can't do that with a Grand but at least let the dog finish that test.


Maybe one day they will do that for those folks still willing to play their game.

kjrice, your signature is painful. FYI there are other devices that work just as well, toes.
Lonnie Spann


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Maybe one day they will do that for those folks still willing to play their game.
> 
> kjrice, your signature is painful. FYI there are other devices that work just as well, toes.
> Lonnie Spann


It's also why I like to keep an adequate bumper between the boys and peril in the dark.


Tool shed regards

Bubba


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Raymond Little said:


> Scott, IMHO this holds the judges who actually know and understand how to setup a test back since having to sit through "blood letting" twice in the same day takes up time that could be used to judge dogs that have preformed the work. Increase the standards through call backs, eliminate walk up entries, and dispense with the Kamo Queer dress code and more would play the game because its Not Humting.


When I was running HRC test in Fl you were lucky to get 20 to 30 dogs in a finished test so they usually had plenty of time to let everyone run. If I spent a day driving to a test and I did some stupid little thing to get DQ'ed then I'd like to be able to run the whole thing. If my dog did something like he broke or blew me off on handling then I wouldn't run him for training sake but it would be nice to have the option of still running if you wanted to.


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