# Drills to Work on to make dog focus on blind



## c.j. (Feb 5, 2014)

when I line him up and say dead bird he will look in the direction I have him in. if I wait more than one second he might start glancing off to the right or left. are there any drills I can do to teach him to lock in to a desired area?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Your friends are No, Here, Heel, Good, Sit and pinch collar w/ short tab (for gentle tugs). 
Some drills are wagon wheel with birdboy throws added to No off of to another target and shortish mark thrown with blind on backside of gun. 
And other drills where you have an obvious attraction /distraction you can use to then work on getting dog to look elsewhere. Use soft voice No/Here and Good when they look towards correct spot. Wait them out and repeate No/here when they look elsewhere. Once they are looking where you want some add in Good Right There or reinforcing Sit command that clues dog they are looking where you want.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Teach the dog that the "good" cue means "you're looking where I want - keep looking there".

Here's how:

1. Have the dog sit
2. Place a ball, bumper, partially full food bowl or treat 8 - 10 feet away
3. When the dog stares at the object, say "good" and immediately release

Keep repeating this process at short distance for 100 repetitions with immediate release. 

After 100 reps - begin to slowly extend the time between the "good" cue and the release.

Now put a prong and tab on the dog and do the same exercise... 

When the dog looks away, say "no" and tug the prong. 

When they look back at the object say "good" and release. 

Works both sides of this equation until the dog will stare for 1 full minute (time it, it feels like forever).

Now go out to the field and use this routine, first on marks then with white bumpers on short grass.

Use a single object at first and then add additional stations spaced well apart. 

Teach the dog the language of "good" and "no" deliberately instead of just depending on your field exercises to handle it for you.

Focus on the skill you need apart from your program and it will improve drastically.

This helps with all head swinging, marks and blinds.

Adapted from teaching a bomb dog to stare at a source. Works great with little pups but no reason it won't with adult dogs. Every bomb dog I've seen trained to do this was an adult when it was done.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

It is supposed to help if you set up your blinds so that your dog learns familar pictures. It might be something to keep in mind.


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## Bonnette13 (Jun 26, 2014)

DarrinGreene said:


> Teach the dog that the "good" cue means "you're looking where I want - keep looking there".
> 
> Here's how:
> 
> ...



Great advice!! If you do what he said ^^^^^ you will have this problem fixed in no time. Remember, the dog is learning. Use something that it knows and wants like food or thrown toy and utilize it. I love when RTF users actually give advice rather than bicker amongst themselves over verbage or context.


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## Fon (Oct 8, 2010)

Bonnette13 said:


> Great advice!! If you do what he said ^^^^^ you will have this problem fixed in no time. Remember, the dog is learning. Use something that it knows and wants like food or thrown toy and utilize it. I love when RTF users actually give advice rather than bicker amongst themselves over verbage or context.


Yes absolutely great advice from DarrinGreene. Thank you for posting this.


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## c.j. (Feb 5, 2014)

DarrinGreene said:


> Teach the dog that the "good" cue means "you're looking where I want - keep looking there".
> 
> Here's how:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! going to give it a try


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Darrin, do you use a cue word to get the dog to look at the object? Or since its high value they immediately look and you don't need one? My thought here would be that we use 'dead' to look out straight as in for a blind. In obedience they use this target training for go outs for example. 

Probably don't need it, but I'm always curious.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Let us know if you see improvement! Once you get this going just incorporate the language into your standard retriever stuff. It makes wagon wheels a lot easier.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

c.j., Do you mind if I ask if your dog takes good initial lines? I know with my dog, I always stopped and handled but I've learned that eventually I have to include stopping and recalling for a poor initial line for him to learn to go straight when he wants to do otherwise. If he knows to go straight I figure he will stop looking for alternatives to going straight. I started on the pattern blind field doing the pattern blind under the arc of the old fall. Instead of stopping and handling like on blind drills, I stopped and recalled. I know I am a genius for coming up with that, ha, ha. I actually didn't read that part anywhere. Maybe your dog is different and he already takes a good line and is just head swinging or something else.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This is a microcosm what's "missing" when teaching a dog to line.

_*"repeating this process at a short distance for 100 repetitions"*_

then seamlessly moving to the next small step (of many) in the process. 

You don't start consistently hitting "three point shots" unless the shorter distances become automatic. 

In addition, when training a young dog there are other skills that must be developed at the same time. Too much focus/work
in one area soon results in "out of balance" issues. And an "out of balance" dog is not a lot of fun. 

Most training issues are created by too often satisfying trainer needs and not the dog's. Too many are in too much of a hurry.
This often leads to a status of "You can't get there from here". Being patient and precise is not a common "dogma" when there
is the ever tempting desire to do more exciting "stuff".

The link below is a video of a seven bumper lining drill....WE still have a lot of precision to develop. The "we" part of that
perspective is not going to suddenly become very different without doing many more "reps" and critically focusing on OUR
weaknesses. *And there is a lot more work to do in other areas.*

note: The drill in the video is NOT a fix for the OP's issues. It is an example of *just one lining drill that required many, many
incrementally easier "reps"* (and we are not finished with it). I am an old "dog" working a new program.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGltguazJwA

note: Videos are a very useful training tool (if you are looking to improve skill levels).


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> This is a microcosm what's "missing" when teaching a dog to line.
> 
> _*"repeating this process at a short distance for 100 repetitions"*_
> 
> ...


That looked good. It is interesting that you are using orange and they are so close and tight together. Mine are out at about 50 yards and 10 yards apart and all white. That's mind boggling.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

KwickLabs said:


> This is a microcosm what's "missing" when teaching a dog to line.
> 
> _*"repeating this process at a short distance for 100 repetitions"*_
> 
> ...


The "100 times" thing is actually very systematic. It normally takes a dog 30-50 repetitions to pair a word and a reward. I double that number to MAKE SURE they know what I'm talking about before I move to anything else.


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## c.j. (Feb 5, 2014)

DarrinGreene said:


> The "100 times" thing is actually very systematic. It normally takes a dog 30-50 repetitions to pair a word and a reward. I double that number to MAKE SURE they know what I'm talking about before I move to anything else.


I did the food bowl to start, that was almost too easy, then moved to white stakes with pile of bumpers at each, again he focused right on the one I would line him up on. Same think when I threw numerous short marks or he saw where I dropped each bumper like a wagon wheel drill. would you suggest making him focus for longer periods of time building up to one minute first or move the white stakes out to a further distance?


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

suepuff said:


> Darrin, do you use a cue word to get the dog to look at the object? Or since its high value they immediately look and you don't need one? My thought here would be that we use 'dead' to look out straight as in for a blind. In obedience they use this target training for go outs for example.
> 
> Probably don't need it, but I'm always curious.


I teach my dog "look" for go-outs and I click and reward this behavior as a foundation exercise. 

I put food out on a target, close-by, say "look" and when the dog looks I click and feed in position. So, I use my right hand and bring the food to the dog while he is looking, I don't click and then feed the dog while he is looking at me. 

Then, I say look again, the dog goes back to looking and I release to the food on the lid. 

It has helped tremendously for field work, especially since I did this for a year training for go-outs before ever trying it in the field! It is a pretty solid behavior.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Labradorks said:


> I teach my dog "look" for go-outs and I click and reward this behavior as a foundation exercise.
> 
> I put food out on a target, close-by, say "look" and when the dog looks I click and feed in position. So, I use my right hand and bring the food to the dog while he is looking, I don't click and then feed the dog while he is looking at me.
> 
> ...


"Dead bird" used consistently, will do the same thing. Good blinds are a matter of slowly building over time through drills, pattern blinds and actual cold blinds. After a few thousand most good handlers become one with their dog. 

My dog's name is Gus, and I learned early on that saying "good" when he was looking out correct was the wrong thing as he took of on the G sound of good. I switched to "that's it", but any cue would work, you could say Matterhorn or Wheaties for all the dog cares.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Some great advice in this thread. And most all come down to taking TIME to teach the dog how to focus. I have been guilty of wanting to roll off the t field and pattern blinds and have the dog run all age blinds. It just doesn't happen like that. I was given the advice years ago that by the 1000th cold blind you might start getting the consistent lock, initial line and drive so strive to get to that point.


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

3 Pile drill from Jack Gwaltney's book "Training and Campaigning Retrievers" is incredibly effective at teaching and cleaning up lining and casting.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Zach Fisher said:


> 3 Pile drill from Jack Gwaltney's book "Training and Campaigning Retrievers" is incredibly effective at teaching and cleaning up lining and casting.


Sounds similar to the Split Casting Drill from Cavanaugh and Dennis Voigt has a version of it on his 25 Essential Drills DVD. Agree, this drill concept does wonders for casting


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

John told me the split casting drill was more for getting so to take angle backs and no digging back at a distance. I would suppose lining up on one of the two piles(stakes) at 100 yards would have a side benefit of using the proper queues.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

c.j. said:


> when I line him up and say dead bird he will look in the direction I have him in. if I wait *more than one second he might start glancing off* to the right or left. are there any drills I can do to teach him to lock in to a desired area?


For a dog to lock in on a destination they have to have a target ...there are many different ways to teach this concept ..Just like marking, the dog has to have a destination ( target ) in their mind when they leave the line ...He has no clue where you want him to go so he starts to hunt ( look ) for it...give him a target ...your choice of what that may be ..some use poles,flags,buckets,big white bumpers,ect...I teach this concept in the wagon wheel with one ring and then add a second and a third for fine lining...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

c.j. said:


> I did the food bowl to start, that was almost too easy, then moved to white stakes with pile of bumpers at each, again he focused right on the one I would line him up on. Same think when I threw numerous short marks or he saw where I dropped each bumper like a wagon wheel drill. would you suggest making him focus for longer periods of time building up to one minute first or move the white stakes out to a further distance?


you have to read your dog - I just gave a process that I used. If he's nailing the exercises then you can progress slowly on both distance and time until he starts failing.. then back up and practice before moving forward again...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

suepuff said:


> Darrin, do you use a cue word to get the dog to look at the object? Or since its high value they immediately look and you don't need one? My thought here would be that we use 'dead' to look out straight as in for a blind. In obedience they use this target training for go outs for example.
> 
> Probably don't need it, but I'm always curious.


Sue - I'm sorry - I missed this in the original thread. 

NO - means "don't look away" - the dog should correct it's behavior IF it's had enough reps to know what it's supposed to be doing.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Sometimes a step up and a "heel" in the right direction will help.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Maybe you are just plain futzing around trying to line him and that is why he is no-going. Just kick him off and handle to build positive momentum. I bet he is just not ready for long cold blinds. Do a ton of pattern blinds so he loosens up. It seems running him in HRC has been done before he is solid on long blinds.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

steve schreiner said:


> For a dog to lock in on a destination they have to have a target ...there are many different ways to teach this concept ..Just like marking, the dog has to have a destination ( target ) in their mind when they leave the line ...He has no clue where you want him to go so he starts to hunt ( look ) for it...give him a target ...your choice of what that may be ..some use poles,flags,buckets,big white bumpers,ect...I teach this concept in the wagon wheel with one ring and then add a second and a third for fine lining...


*YES!* 
After they master wagon wheel, I teach lining to new targets..round hay bales or camo umbrellas or tree stumps
..lining past these instead of right at them.
Unlike pattern blinds, each send is to a new location.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfEixrahr0M

I also like to do walk-around blinds, with no obvious targets, but working on the same cues.
Unlike pattern blinds, each send is to a new location.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fjGMxB4HN8

.--Skeeter


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MissSkeeter said:


> *YES!*
> After they master wagon wheel, I teach lining to new targets..round hay bales or camo umbrellas or tree stumps
> ..lining past these instead of right at them.
> Unlike pattern blinds, each send is to a new location.
> ...


It is a progression ..Steve S


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Here is how I start with a 3-month old pup, but I think it would work for older labs as well.
https://youtu.be/21xcDOO9fTY
This drill teaches pup to focus on destination targets, and we start working on cues such as "good" when locked into correct target,
gradually working on push/pull lining with each feeding. 

It also is the beginning of conditioning heeling without a leash. 

With most lab pups, food is the ultimate motivator and they advance to finer push/pull in a couple weeks of daily feedings.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thomas D said:


> Sometimes a step up and a "heel" in the right direction will help.


You reacting to the dog with movement may bring him back to the focus point but it does nothing toward teaching him to stay locked on, I don't think.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

The OP's question was what drills work for getting a dog to lock on to the direction of a cold blind. However, if one were to question what is 
required for running "good" blinds the critical component is teamwork and communication which require responsiveness and focus. A drill in 
itself will not develop those factors. Providing and describing a drill does not always include the relationship between the handler and retriever. 

For example, before transition a young dog should be "involved" repeatedly with the handler in "sending" on marks. Lining and a verbal "good"
concepts should be well entrenched. The foundation for teamwork is introduced. The transition phase which includes lining drills such as wagon
wheels should build on the handler/dog communication skills. Transition means gradual and when things fall apart the handler has failed to make
it seamless. 

Looking for a drill to fix "the not being seamless process" is inefficient at best and usually frustrating because it does not confront the real issues. 
Responsiveness and focus require communication (verbal and physical teamwork). When things fall apart....."the bridge too far" is encountered. 
The question is why is my dog not listening to me? Inserting a mechanical drill will generally not improve communication. 

So where does one start the remediation? That would be a difficult question not knowing the dog or trainer. Keep in mind it is usually not the dog. 
Which means the question then becomes "What do *I do differently in terms of communication* with my dog?" A two week drill will not cure
this issue.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

KwickLabs said:


> The OP's question was what drills work for getting a dog to lock on to the direction of a cold blind. However, if one were to question what is
> required for running "good" blinds the critical component is teamwork and communication which require responsiveness and focus. A drill in
> itself will not develop those factors. Providing and describing a drill does not always include the relationship between the handler and retriever.
> 
> ...



In my program this is done as part of the basics ...You are too late in teaching the dog to be responsive to the handler if you wait that long..Steve S


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

*In my program this is done as part of the basics ...You are too late in teaching the dog to be responsive to the handler if you wait that long*

I agree with you Steve......However, the key word in _"The transition phase which includes lining drills such as wagon wheels should BUILD on the
handler/dog communication skills._ Transition means gradual and when things fall apart the handler has failed to _*build*_ "seamless". Unfortunately,
arriving at transition with a weak foundation in communication skills is a tough impedance to break though. Dog needs to be ready.....many are not. 

Therefore, if someone "waits too long" a drill is not going to be the answer.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

KwickLabs said:


> *In my program this is done as part of the basics ...You are too late in teaching the dog to be responsive to the handler if you wait that long*
> 
> I agree with you Steve......However, the key word in _"The transition phase which includes lining drills such as wagon wheels should BUILD on the
> handler/dog communication skills._ Transition means gradual and when things fall apart the handler has failed to _*build*_ "seamless". Unfortunately,
> ...


*
*

The drill is still the answer...They have just gotten the cart before the horse so to speak....They need to go back ( meaning stop moving forward with their plans ) and fill in the gap necessary to bring the dog up to the place they are at now...
"Transition means gradual " ..I see transition as moving the dog farther down the road...We are taking the dog and the knowledge they have acquired doing basics and we are now going to apply those skills in the field...In this process we are going to start combining all the drills into actual work situations...If during this process you find the skill necessary to do a certain job( say stop on a whistle ) you may have to go back to a more controlled set up to bring the dog into compliance before you move on to blinds in real training set ups...You are correct in the statement that a lot of dogs are not ready to move on because they don't have the skill level necessary ...80% is not enough to make the dog successful in some transition situations.. Lack of skill is what makes for problems... Steve S


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Lots of good advice but I am lazy, Chinese drill with live Bantams or hooded ducks planted on 5 or 6 blinds, don't fiddle, when he looks more or less correct send him. Also as stated by others lining wagon where is helpful.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> Lots of good advice but I am lazy, Chinese drill with live Bantams or hooded ducks planted on 5 or 6 blinds, don't fiddle, when he looks more or less correct send him. Also as stated by others lining wagon where is helpful.


This will sure help a dog that is just a little unsure about running cold blinds....Steve S


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

c.j. said:


> when I line him up and say dead bird he will look in the direction I have him in. if I wait more than one second he might start glancing off to the right or left. are there any drills I can do to teach him to lock in to a desired area?


Curious ...
How do you line him up ..Leg or arm ?
Anyhow, have you sent/cast him regularly after that one second?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> You reacting to the dog with movement may bring him back to the focus point but *it does nothing toward teaching him to stay locked on, I don't think.*




I am seeing two thoughts in the comments in this thread ...First one is a drill to solve the focus issue..as stated by the op...The second as brought out very plain by Ed is a drill to just get the dog to run blinds with confidence ...Two different places in the whole process.. This a point where I look at what is the real or exact problem I'm trying to solve...Darrin makes a good point in giving an example of my thoughts....Steve S


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> [/B]
> 
> I am seeing two thoughts in the comments in this thread ...First one is a drill to solve the focus issue..as stated by the op...The second as brought out very plain by Ed is a drill to just get the dog to run blinds with confidence ...Two different places in the whole process.. This a point where I look at what is the real or exact problem I'm trying to solve...Darrin makes a good point in giving an example of my thoughts....Steve S


Accomplishing one makes the other easier, take your pick. Or perhaps with the right dog accomplishing one makes the other irrelevant.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

But in doing this stuff, we need to know the dog....
It makes training sense without going through the senseless...
Dog and handler need to be as one... then the drill has meaning.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> Accomplishing one makes the other easier, take your pick. Or perhaps with the right dog accomplishing one makes the other irrelevant.


I believe that teaching the dog to focus should be taught way back in basics with the wagon wheel drill.. Where they have a target to look at...when it comes to getting the dog to start cold blinds I agree sit them down and kick um off...precise lining will come as the work continues...Here once again what is the real object when transitioning to cold blinds ...? Build confidence to go out into the unknown without a target to look at...If the dog has been taught to focus earlier then the initial line is easier to get ...the fiddling will come as the dog gains confidence..recalling or early handling ( stopping ) will be minimized...less confusion for the dog...With the right dog all training becomes irrelevant..they just do it ...As Bill Ecket put it " If you have the right dog and it goes through training with out an issue ,you haven't trained the dog ...when you take one and have all kinds of problems and still make a good dog ,now you have trained one".... Steve S


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Simply put, dogs don’t focus on a blind. They focus on their handler, and the handler is supposed to be focused on the dog. That way, when the dog looks in the direction he is being directed to, the handler can send the dog with the proper timing. If the handler misses the moment the dog will think he has the wrong spot and start scanning for the right one.
The wagon wheel an exercise used to communicate to the dog that he is being aimed at a specific target/destination. You can also run single marks off multiple guns to tempt the dog to look away from the gun he is being directed to. This gives you the opportunity to correct the dog for looking away from the “line”.
I like to run sight blinds using flags. You can set them up as tight as you want to challenge the dog’s understanding of holding the focus and holding the line after he is sent. Putting a gun off to the side tempts the dog to look away, giving me the opportunity to refocus him.
This is always done with visible targets
The bottom line is this. If the dog does not believe/trust you then he will not take a line with confidence.
That trust must be earned.
Think about how long it takes for you to have absolute faith in anything or anybody. Now think about how long it takes to lose that faith.
All the drills and exercises you use to teach your dog to run blind retrieves should be designed to build the dog’s confidence and faith in you.
Never set something up to see if the dog can do it. Set it up to teach him how to do it.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> *Simply put, dogs don’t focus on a blind. They focus on their handler*, and the handler is supposed to be focused on the dog. That way, when the dog looks in the direction he is being directed to, the handler can send the dog with the proper timing. If the handler misses the moment the dog will think he has the wrong spot and start scanning for the right one.
> *The wagon wheel an exercise used to communicate to the dog that he is being aimed at a specific target/destination.* You can also run single marks off multiple guns to tempt the dog to look away from the gun he is being directed to. This gives you the opportunity to correct the dog for looking away from the “line”.
> *I like to run sight blinds using flags. *You can set them up as tight as you want to challenge the dog’s understanding of holding the focus and holding the line after he is sent. Putting a gun off to the side tempts the dog to look away, giving me the opportunity to refocus him.
> *This is always done with visible targets*
> ...


It appears to me your statements are contradictory...why use flags..? This is always done with visible targets... In the wagon wheel you state that the use of a target or destination ...Not trying to pick a fight ...I just want you rethink your first statement...I agree that most handlers don't recognize when a dog is looking in the proper place...This is the problem with a dog that is not holding the focus for a longer period of time ...The length of time has to be increased as the dog goes through the process...I am not a proponent of fast cast or sends...When the dog will sit and look straight ahead for a count of 5 I am pretty sure they understand the go straight ( initial line) concept...Some will tap a dog with a stick ( don't ask how hard ) to refocus the dog when they look off ...A way of just getting the dog to sit straight and not move its head... Steve S


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

There is nothing contradictory about my first statement although I probably should have said “cold” blind.
The rest of my comments referred to exercises and drills, not blinds.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> Simply put, dogs don’t focus on a blind. They focus on their handler, and the handler is supposed to be focused on the dog. That way, when the dog looks in the direction he is being directed to, the handler can send the dog with the proper timing. If the handler misses the moment the dog will think he has the wrong spot and start scanning for the right one.
> The wagon wheel an exercise used to communicate to the dog that he is being aimed at a specific target/destination. You can also run single marks off multiple guns to tempt the dog to look away from the gun he is being directed to. This gives you the opportunity to correct the dog for looking away from the “line”.
> I like to run sight blinds using flags. You can set them up as tight as you want to challenge the dog’s understanding of holding the focus and holding the line after he is sent. Putting a gun off to the side tempts the dog to look away, giving me the opportunity to refocus him.
> This is always done with visible targets
> ...


Right on!!!...
Team effort....


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> Accomplishing one makes the other easier, take your pick. Or perhaps with the right dog accomplishing one makes the other irrelevant.


All the "focus" in the world is irrelevant without the confidence to go hard and straight, no doubt about that.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

What about "single point blinds"? There might be another name for it but it's basically running a blind from multiple destinations but to the same point. Excuse my ignorance as I am a complete newb but this would be similar to pattern blinds but instead of multiple known locations sent to from the same line you send to the same location from a different starting point.

Hillmann spoke briefly about it at a seminar. It teaches the dog confidence but depending on the land you have to work with you can work on a lot of different factors by running to the same point from a different location.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

This drill will help build confidence in the going on blinds...Even though tht starting point changes the destination remains the same thus creating a known target to run to....Steve S


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## c.j. (Feb 5, 2014)

Thank you everyone for the help on this. Yesterday I did a half wagon wheel drill with white poles. I also ran some pattern blinds to see if that would help. 

I lined him up and said dead bird and when he would look in the direction I wanted give him a "good right there" if he looked away a quick "no". I sat there on each run for 15-30seconds until he closed his mouth and locked in on where he was going. When he is panting he almost looks up to the sky and that is not what I need. I really thinking waiting longer to send him is the solution on this especially because he ran all of them flawless. I usually give them around 5 seconds to somewhat lock in but I guess with this dog it is going to take longer. By the end of the day yesterday he figured out that he doesn't get released until he is looking out and focused, not panting and looking all over. I am going to start running pole blinds with varying distance and pattern blinds a lot more.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

c.j. said:


> Thank you everyone for the help on this. Yesterday I did a half wagon wheel drill with white poles. I also ran some pattern blinds to see if that would help.
> 
> I lined him up and said dead bird and when he would look in the direction I wanted give him a "good right there" if he looked away a quick "no". I sat there on each run for 15-30seconds until he closed his mouth and locked in on where he was going. When he is panting he almost looks up to the sky and that is not what I need. I really thinking waiting longer to send him is the solution on this especially because he ran all of them flawless. I usually give them around 5 seconds to somewhat lock in but I guess with this dog it is going to take longer. By the end of the day yesterday he figured out that he doesn't get released until he is looking out and focused, not panting and looking all over. I am going to start running pole blinds with varying distance and pattern blinds a lot more.




There is some pretty good drills for teaching a dog to focus in the right direction on Dennis Voight's 25 essential drills. You might want to take a look at that dvd.


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## c.j. (Feb 5, 2014)

I have the 25 Drill DVD set, which drills are you talking about?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

c.j. said:


> I have the 25 Drill DVD set, which drills are you talking about?


I found the reverse lining 7 bumper drill to be the most effective for my dogs. I first taught the no-no drill so I could call the dog back before their reaching the bumper that they wanted rather than the one I was lining them to.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

freezeland said:


> I found the reverse lining 7 bumper drill to be the most effective for my dogs. I first taught the no-no drill so I could call the dog back before their reaching the bumper that they wanted rather than the one I was lining them to.


I didn't get much out of that drill. I did it maybe four times times and my dog made one mistake. I think my dog likes going long on it.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I want to buy a bunch of hay bales and go to multiple places and set up cold blinds all with hay bale jumps. The logistics and labor involved is holding me back, and I'm working on something else right now. That is kinda like a target, but the target is not the end of the blind?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

DL said:


> I didn't get much out of that drill. I did it maybe four times times and my dog made one mistake. I think my dog likes going long on it.


The most benefit came when I began challenging the dogs in the drill. Adding cover, crossing ditch etc.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

freezeland said:


> The most benefit came when I began challenging the in the drill. Adding cover, crossing ditch etc.


That's interesting. Are the bumpers all visible when you advanced that?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

DL said:


> That's interesting. Are the bumpers all visible when you advanced that?


At first...and I would add that by that point they would focus where I wanted them to look. It didn't take long.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

freezeland said:


> At first...and I would add that by that point they would focus where I wanted them to look. It didn't take long.


I guess at the point the dog can't see them, it isn't a reverse lining drill but short tight blinds, going long to short? Sorry, if I'm being dense or over analyzing it. I do pole drills, and recently set one up with factors which really made a difference in the difficulty.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

DL said:


> I guess at the point the dog can't see them, it isn't a reverse lining drill but short tight blinds, going long to short? Sorry, if I'm being dense or over analyzing it. I do pole drills, and recently set one up with factors which really made a difference in the difficulty.


It's just how I did his reverse lining drill. I think that when you get to the point of tight angles, and then adding a larger degree of difficulty (i.e a ditch to traverse) is what really made the difference in getting the dog to focus where they were lined to. Perhaps Dennis will read our exchange and chime in.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

I just started re-reading Jack Gwaltney's book. And in the beginning he discusses the difference of using targets to teach blinds, vs not using and how that relates to teaching the dog how to run blinds. I find it very interesting how he discusses it and make total sense. I am more in Ed's camp, get them running long and hard then we will fine tuning the lining. Communication should have been built all along the way thru yard work and marks. Be consistent and the dog will know what to expect. But nothing works without the dog's confidence.

A tip about running hay bale jumps. Take some fiberglass tent poles and attach a foot-18 inches of blind material and use that for jumps. MUCH easier to carry, so you want to run the same concept in different areas, that way you are not hauling hay bales around. Also use log jumps, harsh cover changes, etc, whatever the field offers. You want to generalize the concept, not just teach the dog to go over your jumps when he/she sees them.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

NateB said:


> I just started re-reading Jack Gwaltney's book. And in the beginning he discusses the difference of using targets to teach blinds, vs not using and how that relates to teaching the dog how to run blinds. I find it very interesting how he discusses it and make total sense. I am more in Ed's camp, get them running long and hard then we will fine tuning the lining. Communication should have been built all along the way thru yard work and marks. Be consistent and the dog will know what to expect. But nothing works without the dog's confidence.
> 
> A tip about running hay bale jumps. Take some fiberglass tent poles and attach a foot-18 inches of blind material and use that for jumps. MUCH easier to carry, so you want to run the same concept in different areas, that way you are not hauling hay bales around. Also use log jumps, harsh cover changes, etc, whatever the field offers. You want to generalize the concept, not just teach the dog to go over your jumps when he/she sees them.


Thanks, I'm going to look into making the jumps and take a look at that book again. Now that I think about it, I may go with the plastic culvert pipes or why not both. How long do you make your jumps? I was shown how to do it with a short length of culvert pipe about 7 feet, but I made my one hay bale jump longer when I was doing the no no drill. I had it five hay bales long.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dogs get good at running blinds,by running blinds...... LOTS of them.... Its critical for the handler to develop a routine of placing the dog next to him whether it be a Marking set up, or a blind ,that teaches GO as sent,,then stay very consistent with that routine by communication..

If you do not have the dog lined up right before you send him,, whos fault is that,, and what are you communicating? How can the dog focus under confusing signals?

Develop a routine.. Consistently adhere to it, and run LOTS of blinds.... LOTS!!!

P.S. The above means NOTHING if the dog hasn't been well schooled in obedience, FF, T , and TT. So,, I guess THRERE'S the drills..


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Dogs get good at running blinds,by running blinds...... LOTS of them.... Its critical for the handler to develop a routine of placing the dog next to him whether it be a Marking set up, or a blind ,that teaches GO as sent,,then stay very consistent with that routine by communication..
> 
> If you do not have the dog lined up right before you send him,, whos fault is that,, and what are you communicating? How can the dog focus under confusing signals?
> 
> ...


I want to point out pole drills aren't for lining from what I understand, but for casting.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This thread has presented a consistent theme that strongly suggests that in the process of reaching the somewhat elusive goal of having a proficient blind
running retriever that it is NOT which approach (drills) the trainer uses (as in the topic of this thread) but rather how the trainer develops the communication
skills to do so. 

Over the past many years there are a few areas of my training that have consistently exposed trainer issues. However, blinds has not been one of them. Let’s
see…..by comparing Dobbs, Graham, Lardy, Farmer and Hillmann (to name a few) one can see a rather “diverse” set of opinions, sequences, basic drills and
tactics used to teach a retriever to run blinds. They all have one thing in common.......skill development is based on fair, consistent, precise communication. 

Success involves much more than which drill(s) to use (or the dog). Using some magical drill (or getting a better dog) is avoiding the real issue.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> This thread has presented a consistent theme that strongly suggests that in the process of reaching the somewhat elusive goal of having a proficient blind
> running retriever that it is NOT which approach (drills) the trainer uses (as in the topic of this thread) but rather how the trainer develops the communication
> skills to do so.
> 
> ...


I don't think you had success getting your dog ready for the derby following the Hillmann derby dog program? It's no big deal or important for that matter. My point is that success is relative.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"I don't think you had success getting your dog ready for the derby following the Hillmann derby dog program? It's no big deal or important for
that matter. My point is that success is relative."_ 

First of all, why would getting a dog ready for a derby have anything to do with running blinds? Secondly, I am fairly sure your first statement is
not a question. And lastly, stating "that success is relative" means what? The use of a trite phrase that is widely accepted as true is not 
often convincing in a discussion.....when the point is pointless. 

DL, I am not trying to be critical........but your post is typical.......then again maybe I am.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> _"I don't think you had success getting your dog ready for the derby following the Hillmann derby dog program? It's no big deal or important for
> that matter. My point is that success is relative."_
> 
> First of all, why would getting a dog ready for a derby have anything to do with running blinds? Secondly, I am fairly sure your first statement is
> ...


If you see my post as typical, I assume you see it as not special. It was indeed not special which is my goal and a success. No need to overanalize my response.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

DL, I will take just a moment to point out that your somewhat snide (maybe that is not the best descriptor) remark that mentioning Hillmann’s
approach as it relates to Pounce's training was somehow a rationale (by you) for mentioning that Pounce did not run a single Derby is naively
absurd. 

She was a June 4th pup. I live in the extreme of northern Illinois. We would have two winters (10 months of cold water, snow, ice) plus duck
hunting that would be in conflict. It would be rather ignorant to assume that trying to run a Derby (or two) before aging out against other young
dogs coming up north after training in the south all winter…..or two winters (with pros) was a good idea. 

If you had left the Hillmann reference out, I would have not even bothered to re-engage. 

Regards, Jim

_"If you see my post as typical, I assume you see it as not special."_ 

DL, you are always "special".


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

KwickLabs said:


> This thread has presented a consistent theme that strongly suggests that in the process of reaching the somewhat elusive goal of having a proficient blind
> running retriever that it is NOT which approach (drills) the trainer uses (as in the topic of this thread) but rather how the trainer develops the communication
> skills to do so.
> 
> ...


Good post Jim.I agree.
If I had responded trying to say the same I would be kicked off


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

When I first began training dogs (13 years ago) - I followed the instructions of my mentors, not knowing exactly why things worked the way they did - just that they worked...

When I decided to train pet dogs I endeavored to learn as much as I could about the "why" behind the "how and what".

As I went through that process I was lucky enough to be exposed to 20 or 30 trainers from many different venues, not the least of which were some of the best (unsung) retriever people in the country. I lived dogs for those 24 months almost exclusively, between work, my personal dog and time spent studying various sources. Those guys never knew that instead of watching TV at night I was studying training technique. 

During that time of total immersion, I learned more than I ever could from a book. I also learned that most dog trainers (even really great ones) hadn't read the book or... they didn't care to talk about training in those terms. Most people relate better to past experiences and hands on learning. 

Nothing trumps (haha I said Trump) experience - no doubt about that. Putting your hands on dog is the only way to get good. Knowing the underpinning psychology helps a lot though, especially with things like blinds. You don't need to get into too much detail but before anyone ever touches Merten's or Hillman - they really should take the time to study:

1) Classic conditioning (Pavlov)
2) Behavior shaping using a marker (clicker, voice, doesn't matter)
3) Operant conditioning (the four quadrants of learning)
4) Temple Grandin's books (My Life in Pictures is important)

If you put that base of knowledge underneath the magical "programs", "processes" and "drills" you will have a much better chance of developing clean, clear communication with your dog. Knowing how habits are taught and habituated (in all organisms) should be Dog 100.

Just an idea to ponder.

I think a lot of our more senior and accomplished members understand those four things I mentioned, not necessarily because they studied them but because they "just know". That could be talent or years of experience but they know these things without ever reading the book. For the newer folks (myself included) reading the book helps accelerate the curve.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> When I first began training dogs (13 years ago) - I followed the instructions of my mentors, not knowing exactly why things worked the way they did - just that they worked...
> 
> When I decided to train pet dogs I endeavored to learn as much as I could about the "why" behind the "how and what".
> 
> ...





Darrin, I must start by saying I'm NOT saying your full of *%# cuz it might sound that way;-).
Just like dogs, people are different and learn different. Personally your study methods would be darn near a total waste of time for me. I hate books and reading.
There was a thread awhile back discussing that some people just have "IT". I believe that to be very true in what ever you do and especially in dog training. No matter what you do if you are not suited for your profession no amount of studying or book learning is going to make you good at that profession, might help but... Why would it be that someone like Lardy who is a college educated man and was a biologist for fish and game I believe, ended up being a dog trainer? I think he could have saved a lot of time and money and just started being a dog trainer right off the bat. Some of you on here that have kids that read this might want to hide this post;-).
I also will say that I think I look at things a lot different than most people so this is just another idea to ponder. If I had started this at a young age things would be totally different for me now. I didn't start this stuff until I was well into my 40's. I read one book, the Tri Tronics book written by Jim Dobbs. I learned the methods to teach dogs how to do certain things and then the dogs and experience taught me the rest. Had no mentors, watched no videos and read no other books. Now I aint no Mike Lardy or Danny Farmer but I could only wonder what might have been if I had started in dogs as a teen or in my 20's instead of mid 40's. Didn't start training full time until 58 and now at 61 I'm getting too old and tired to attempt to be like Mike. I feel like I pretty much wasted 30 years. Your post just got me to thinking and I disagree that you need to study 4 areas you mentioned before you pick up on Hillman or any other ways of training. For me your recommended study areas might as well be written in Chinese for all the good I would get out of them.
Don't mean to be a @$$ hole but to me your way of going about things would be over analyzing and would confuse me. Even in day to day training I try not to get too much into analyzing things. Sometimes you will never figure out why a dog does what he does so it is just better to move on and figure out what to do to keep him from doing it.
Well I have rambled on way too much but I think it would be interesting to know just how much book learning some of the big time trainers did on the subject of dog training


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Someone can read all the books they want, but to be a successful trainer of *field competition dogs*, you have to understand each one you train, respect their innate qualities, and switch gears instantly between them. Many field trainers can't do that because they really don't have that special quality to be a student of dog behavior and know what really works. I believe Mike said something paraphrasing about being not being interested in quadrants, but he knew what works.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> Darrin, I must start by saying I'm NOT saying your full of *%# cuz it might sound that way;-).
> Just like dogs, people are different and learn different. Personally your study methods would be darn near a total waste of time for me. I hate books and reading.
> There was a thread awhile back discussing that some people just have "IT". I believe that to be very true in what ever you do and especially in dog training. No matter what you do if you are not suited for your profession no amount of studying or book learning is going to make you good at that profession, might help but...


I tried to cover those points Steve, as follows (from my original post)

"most dog trainers (even really great ones) hadn't read the book or... they didn't care to talk about training in those terms. Most people relate better to past experiences and hands on learning. 

Nothing trumps (haha I said Trump) experience - no doubt about that. Putting your hands on dog is the only way to get good."

also:

"I think a lot of our more senior and accomplished members understand those four things I mentioned, not necessarily because they studied them but because they "just know". That could be talent or years of experience but they know these things without ever reading the book. "

I don't do too well with simply reading myself. I don't think most people do. Putting things into practice and with dogs, seeing the million different scenarios play out is what makes someone a good (to great) trainer. 

I never had the inherent talent for much except possibly process oriented problem solving. I'm not a natural with dogs. I've seen people who are (Marc Patton comes to mind), but I'm not. I have to think, think, think the entire time. It took some doing for me to tap into that part of my brain and get my emotions to the side but thanks to folks like Marc (who literally hit me with a heeling stick a few times lol to get me to THINK), I learned to do that. That presents some limitations for me in training. I can't do what someone that has the inherent talent can do. I can do 90% of it but I'll never master that 10% differentiating factor no matter how hard I work. 

I didn't take your post to mean I was FOS


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Someone can read all the books they want, but to be a successful trainer of *field competition dogs*, you have to understand each one you train, respect their innate qualities, and switch gears instantly between them. Many field trainers can't do that because they really don't have that special quality to be a student of dog behavior and know what really works. I believe Mike said something paraphrasing about being not being interested in quadrants, but he knew what works.


That applies to all dogs in all venues including the home Nancy. It's not just field dogs or competition dogs. If I work 5 dogs today I have to work 5 different strategies to get what I want. Throw an owner into that equation with their individual learning style and emotional limitations, and you have a really complex puzzle to figure out. Being successful with large numbers of dog/household/owner situations isn't at all easy. It take a lot of patience and thought. A good field pro faces this also, as he/she tries to educate their handlers on reading their dog, handling appropriately and how to perform maintenance training while the dog is at home.

For me personally - a solid understanding of the underpinning psychology has helped me sort out what I'm really seeing, from the perspective of someone who has trained maybe 1,500 dogs vs. 15,000 as some of my colleagues have. When I started coaching people I had maybe 150 dogs under my belt. I needed that additional knowledge to problem solve on the spot for my clients.

I think that knowledge base would help some of the folks who have trained 1 - 2 or even a few dozen dogs also. It's hard to interpret what someone like Mike or Pat (Burns) is asking you to do if you don't get get the underlying reasons. At least it is for me. Maybe it isn't so much for others.

I'm lucky to be connected to some top trainers in my area for obedience, agility and problem solving in the home. We often talk about the "over educated" kids coming our of ABC or some other program (sit means sit or off leash) frying dogs with an e-collar to get what they want, screwing up dogs left and right because they don't have the chops gained by experience. Totally feel your point here, believe me.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I'm talking about trainers who actually believe dogs can think and problem solve in advanced situations, not that the trainer teaches all. Some of these dogs are smarter than the trainers


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> I'm talking about trainers who actually believe dogs can think and problem solve in advanced situations, not that the trainer teaches all. Some of these dogs are smarter than the trainers


One way or another - the trainer teaches the dog what's good and bad - end of story. Whether that entails leaving them to figure something out on their own or helping them is irrelevant. 

The dog could be Einstein and they wouldn't be able to watch a field trial and go do it without their trainer. 

They're very much like humans in that they remember the emotional reaction that had to a situation and then either seek or avoid that situation. 

Take you Nancy - I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.

Good training!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Take you Nancy - I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.


It was many times more than once, since you are counting, and about adult competing dogs. You do not give dogs credit for having innate intelligence.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> It was many times more than once, since you are counting, and about adult competing dogs. You do not give dogs credit for having innate intelligence.


You've chosen to take my advocacy for a thoughtful, structured approach to training a dog to mean I think they're stupid, many times over. Your interpretation is incorrect. It's really that simple.

I don't succeed with 300 families a year because of haphazard, unstructured training that assumes "they'll figure **** out".


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.
> 
> Good training!


Now where is that Like Button when you need it . ;-)


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## Falfa (Mar 11, 2003)

_







Originally Posted by *DarrinGreene* 
I said something one day about a puppy being stupid that pissed you off. You've never forgotten it so regardless of how good a trainer I might be, how many times we agree with each other or how much tolerance we give... You'll take a shot at me over it now and forever more. I could win the national and there would still be a reason I was a **** trainer. That simple.

Good training!

_

Now where is that Like Button when you need it . :wink:

Thats interesting. 

I view it differently. Darrin has a chance to show the market that he is a patient and tolerant pro. He has the chance to let the unruly student air its flaws, while he calmly and intelligently sorts it out. 

I think he missed the mark and showed a loss of control.​


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Falfa said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are entitled to your opinion Sir' .
He/You or I don't have a requirement to show this forum.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

My only objective/wish is that despite the occasional disagreement from certain parties - some of the newer folk will stop, think, plan, execute and learn to continually adjust their training to get the most out of themselves and their dogs. 

As with any big group 98 out of 100 may take no value out of what someone says while the remaining 2 get something they will cherish forever. 

To invest the time talking to the 100 one must believe the 2 exist otherwise, why bother.

I could do a better job at ignoring certain folks around here that I have no real reason to please, no doubt about that.

I've made some great friends here who are good folk and excellent trainers. I could quit now and I'd have gained more than I've lost.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I tried to cover those points Steve, as follows (from my original post)
> 
> "most dog trainers (even really great ones) hadn't read the book or... they didn't care to talk about training in those terms. Most people relate better to past experiences and hands on learning.
> 
> ...




Well I say try and not think so much. You should have enough experience by now to mostly just act or react. I seriously think too much thinking gets in your way. There are sooo many things I do when working a dog that I don't even realize I do until I start explaning it to a client or my apprentice. When working or handling a dog you don't have time to think. In the beginning just like a dog you need to think to learn but once the learning process of teaching a dog something is done you and the dog simply act and react to each other. A master hunter dog for example has been to school and graduated after that he is just acting and reacting to what you are doing to get better at what he has learned. Running a dog in a test or trial you have to know what may happen and know what your going to do if it does, before it does. No time to think about it. Kinda hard to explain.
I think the original poster actually answered his own question. He says the dog will focus briefly but then look away. I would just send the dog when looking in the right direction and not give him time to look away. Trying to fine line a dog just learning is counter productive. If he goes on back get him pointed in the right direction and kick him off. To me pattern blinds is what works for this. Lots of repetition of lining up and sending on multiple taught blinds greatly improves focus on where they are going. Wagon wheel is also good for this but to me it is more of a push and pull drill teaching handler and dog to act and react together.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Steve Shaver said:


> I think the original poster actually answered his own question. He says the dog will focus briefly but then look away. I would just send the dog when looking in the right direction and not give him time to look away. Trying to fine line a dog just learning is counter productive. If he goes on back get him pointed in the right direction and kick him off.


Agree 100%. Never fine line a dog just learning the blind game...it can create bugging. Once the dog settles in and looks at something 'in the general area' of the line, kick him off. You can cast him back towards the line once he's out in the field a good distance. After many repetitions and success, the dog will get much better on locking in and taking an initial line. Once he's good in those areas, then you can start fine lining. JMO. A dog needs to be confident to 'lock in'. Success and repetition breeds confidence.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> Well I say try and not think so much. You should have enough experience by now to mostly just act or react. I seriously think too much thinking gets in your way. There are sooo many things I do when working a dog that I don't even realize I do until I start explaning it to a client or my apprentice. When working or handling a dog you don't have time to think. In the beginning just like a dog you need to think to learn but once the learning process of teaching a dog something is done you and the dog simply act and react to each other. --


Agreed and for me this is also true but - I rarely just "train" a dog. I am explaining the process to someone else 99% of the time, so I need to be able to articulate for someone with 0 dog knowledge what will work for them. 

Often times I find it helps to simplify (like we do for dogs) and focus on a single element in order to gain proficiency. With newer retriever people I think pulling the "focus" behavior out of the normal regimen would be a benefit. I did it with my last personal dog and it worked very well.

That doesn't mean I think dogs (or people) are stupid. It's just simplification.


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