# National Open threads



## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

*Newbie here - ?? about Nationals*

hi all - totally new here - i am a veteran of hunt tests, both HRC and AKC, and have titled several dogs but haven't been around field trials much and am interested in attending the Nationals next week since i live in Houston. Is there a schedule or something available online? 

is derby also part of the nationals, or is it just open?

thanks in advance......

David


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

The National Retriever Championship is open to dogs that have accumulated 7 pts including a win in the Open, Limited, Special or Restricted over the last 12 months. Other than evening events there is not an advance schedule except the first series begins on Sunday morning and the last series usually ends the following Saturday. 

Each day you can obtain the location of the current series from the trial headquarters or from the threads on RTF. For more info check out http://www.working-retriever.com/08nrc/stakeinfo.htm

Russ


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

I went to the National grounds today. I had volunteered to throw birds for set-up but they were finished and I didn't know it. They were setting up a marked off area for the gallery for the 1st test _on Sunday_. Cope was there driving over the stakes ..... I couldn't believe it! Parking area is ready. Potties are ready. Food location is ready. If I remember correctly they have about 9 more set-ups this year than we did 4 years ago. Those guys have got all their ducks in a row and firing on all eight. I be back again Sunday.

I stopped by and visited Jer on the way back. He is just as feisty as every!


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

Arturo said:


> I went to the National grounds today. I had volunteered to throw birds for set-up but they were finished and I didn't know it. They were setting up a marked off area for the gallery for the 1st test _on Sunday_. Cope was there driving over the stakes ..... I couldn't believe it! Parking area is ready. Potties are ready. Food location is ready. If I remember correctly they have about 9 more set-ups this year than we did 4 years ago. Those guys have got all their ducks in a row and firing on all eight. I be back again Sunday.
> 
> I stopped by and visited Jer on the way back. He is just as feisty as every!


I am not familiar with 2 of the judges but I know Gary Zellner. He's very thorough. He has a setup for every possible weather condition, he does not like to be caught offguard.


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## MKaty Gutermuth (Aug 17, 2004)

I know the one from the east coast... he is a "Good Dog Man" wonderful fair judge between him and Dad they have taught me everything I know. Katie


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## Brett Krause (Jun 8, 2008)

Can someone give me better directions than are on RFTEntry for the event?
I'm coming from Austin...
Thanks,


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Good thing they're not using the DJIA to pick the starting number....they'd have to subtract the scratches to find the starter.....;-)

If it hadn't _happened_ once I'd have _never_ mentioned it regards, 

kg


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## cgoeson (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm so happy Vickie is doing he blog again. All I had last time was what she wrote and what you all were able to figure out from people you knew. Please keep the info coming this time. I'm curious to see what the videos look like on working retriever. 

I can't wait!


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

Big Jake said:


> Can someone give me better directions than are on RFTEntry for the event?
> I'm coming from Austin...
> Thanks,


Coming from Austin on 290, exit in Brenham on 90 to Navasota. Once in Navasota (look for Conroe/Montgomery signs) take Hwy 6 south about a mile and take the exit to Hwy 105 EAST to Montgomery.(20+ miles). As you are nearing Montgomery you will come to the high school on the right. Turn right just as you pass the school (at the red light). Follow that road behind the school and over the railroad track. Take a left immediately past the railroad. Go about 200 yards and a gate on your right will be to Redbird Meadows Ranch. These directions will either get you there ..... or get you lost! 

Good Luck,
Arturo

I'm still looking for a good map I posted a few years ago. I don't know where it went!


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## Brett Krause (Jun 8, 2008)

Another question.
Does anyone know the starting dog number?
Thanks,


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Dog 93 starts. Rotation is 93 - 14 - 40 - 66.

Judges for '09 Nat'l Open are Joe Broyles, Tom Vaughn, and Jack Vollstedt.

kg


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## Jimmie Darnell (Sep 22, 2003)

*National 1st Series Starting #*

Just heard from Texas. Starting @ 7:30 #93.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Rotation is 93 - 14 - 40 - 66.

Judges for '09 Nat'l Open are Joe Broyles, Tom Vaughn, and Jack Vollstedt.

kg


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Do you have official scratches or results from the bitch check?

Florence


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## Brett Krause (Jun 8, 2008)

"Rotation is 93 - 14 - 40 - 66."

Newbie here. Please explain.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Big Jake said:


> "Rotation is 93 - 14 - 40 - 66."
> 
> Newbie here. Please explain.


#93 starts the first series, #14 starts the second, #40 starts the third, #66 starts the fourth......usually its 5 dogs past those numbers to start the subsequent series. The idea here is to make sure that no dog starts a series more than once in a National (or in an all-age stake on a weekend, for that matter).

kg


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## Brett Krause (Jun 8, 2008)

K G,
Thank you very much.
I'm going to make the 2008 Nationals my first attended FT and want to learn as much as possible.


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## Bosko Ranch (Dec 19, 2005)

where will the blog be?

does anyone have links for the updates?


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## Brett Krause (Jun 8, 2008)

Any other advise for a rookie observer?


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Big Jake said:


> Any other advise for a rookie observer?


Don't wear white and take a chair and some binoculars.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Bosko Ranch said:


> where will the blog be?
> 
> does anyone have links for the updates?


http://08nrc.blogspot.com/

http://working-retriever.com/08nrc/index.html


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## check171 (May 12, 2004)

http://www.working-retriever.com/08nrc/Videos.html


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## Pushbutton2 (Apr 9, 2004)

Didn't she just Write a Book?

if so Where can I get a Copy?


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## Burke Earley (Jun 22, 2006)

I heard the Draw for the strarter this year was 93.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Burke Earley said:


> I heard the Draw for the strarter this year was 93.


You would be correct, Burke! ;-) http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32562 

Good luck with Zoom!

kg


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

Big Jake said:


> Any other advise for a rookie observer?


Take sunscreen. Don't forget to yell GoDogGo (long verson of GDG) if one of the dogs does a really good job.

You're welcome.

I'll be listening,
Arturo


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

*Numbers Pressure at the National?*

Am told that for a dog's first no bird - no matter which bird - the dog will return immediately to the line.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

cgoeson said:


> I'm so happy Vickie is doing he blog again. All I had last time was what she wrote and what you all were able to figure out from people you knew. Please keep the info coming this time. I'm curious to see what the videos look like on working retriever.
> 
> I can't wait!


Never look a gift horse in the mouth. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26877&highlight=blog&page=5
Interesting reading, check it out.

john


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

*National Open*

I just checked the AKC site and could find nothing On the National. 
WRC has link to Vickies blog but the sound doesn't work on the test video.
Handlers should be up and about now, and the games are about to begin.
Best of luck to all handlers and dogs.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Wow, handlers should start praying really. really, hard, for a decent flyer. It's hen pheasants too.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Am told that for a dog's first no bird - no matter which bird - the dog will return immediately to the line.


Do you feel there is an advantage, or disadvantage to this?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Only 1 out of the first 5 dogs has done the first series clean...I assume without a hunt or handle. Ralph, handled by Ray Voight, smacked it.

kg


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Depends on which bird was the no bird.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Also depends where the no bird lands....

Not all no birds are created equally.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

FOM said:


> Also depends where the no bird lands....
> 
> Not all no birds are created equally.


And that's horse racing as they say.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

*National Open - Blog is Up and Running*

http://www.08nrc.blogspot.com/


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Dog #16 just handled.

About half the dogs that have done it so far have done the first series "clean." My source has not distinguished between handles and hunts not being "clean."

kg


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

comments from early handlers......not impressed with retired mark....guns throw hen pheasant IN from a **** and retire behind the **** on waters edge, the dogs drive over the **** into water and handlers cannot see until dogs is almost to flyer.


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

Great info! Thanks Shayne!!


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Lainee's at it again.  Way to go Shane & Lainee!!! HPW


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## Rudd (Jan 9, 2008)

What does "Handle 1st" mean?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Umm, means they handled in the 1st series.....


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

He's new... be gentle 

"Handle first" means the dog was handled in the first series. 
The dog needed some assistance and the handler blew the whistle and gave some assistance to the dog. Generally speaking... this is not a favorable thing to be doing. However in some circumstances a "quick handle" could be much better than an extremely long hunt or in picking the dog up all together. 

Hope it helped and enjoy the coverage.

Hand


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Here is what I have heard about first series

It is a hip pocket double.

Flyer guns are about 365 yards from line
Retired guns are about 200 yards from line

Retired guns throw from top of dam, in slightly and downhill
If dogs miss the bird on first pass, then they tend to drive over the dam and hunt the holding blind (which is on the other side of the dam by the water)
Handlers cannot see the dogs as they hunt the holding blind - or as 
they run back to flyers


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> And that's horse racing as they say.


Wow, I didn't know they were racing horses at the National as well...;-)

Smart Aleky Regards,

Joe S.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Lainee,

Call name for #105 is "Missy"


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

Thank you Ted, thats just the info I was looking for. Where are most of the dogs being handeled that are handeled? Bud


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Videos now up


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## Tatyana (Nov 6, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Videos now up


Ted, where?


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## Brad Overstreet (Feb 20, 2008)

watched 6 dogs run. only one got it right. the other had an extended hunt. went over dike then came back and picked it up. The others all had to handle. 

Cheers,
Brad


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

http://www.08nrc.blogspot.com/
http://working-retriever.com/08nrc/index.html


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

Tatyana,

http://www.working-retriever.com/08nrc/Videos.html

Eric


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Am told that for a dog's first no bird - no matter which bird - the dog will return immediately to the line.


not true, wait 3 dogs


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

gun change @ 1:30 starting with dog 44, 1/2 way through, will not finish today, possibly 12-15 dogs to run tomorrow morning


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## Tatyana (Nov 6, 2007)

Thanks, I found them now.


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

Check WRC - first no bird is come right back, 2nd no bird is wait 6 dogs


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

labhauler said:


> Check WRC - first no bird is come right back, 2nd no bird is wait 6 dogs


I stand corrected, didn't need to check WRC just asked one of the pros who had a no bird


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2008)

Isn't it unusual for a pro to run a test dog?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Isn't it unusual for a pro to run a test dog?


nope, particularly at the National Open Championship

21 H & 26 picked up


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

JKL said:


> ....guns throw hen pheasant IN from a **** and retire behind the **** on waters edge, the dogs drive over the **** into water and handlers cannot see until dogs is almost to flyer.


the throw is a right angle throw from the top of the dam part way down the dam, if the dog goes into the water or hunts the backside of the dam the hander cannot see the dog, therefore must make a decision as to when to handle, if they swim the pond they are beyond the point of a decent handle


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## Rudd (Jan 9, 2008)

Yeah, FOB, take it easy I'm new. :wink::razz:

Thanks KHG.


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

According to the blog, Howard & Bam did the test!


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

North Mountain said:


> According to the blog, Howard & Bam did the test!


shayne 
Can you put up a page that has call backs and handles only 
and maybe update every ten or so dogs
edit i mean a page that only posts callbacks and handle and the occasional gut hunt no other posts


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Not another page! We already have 3 threads going on, 2 in RTF and the 3rd in Events!


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Look, I am aware that I am in no position to complain.

But in all seriousness, I would have thought with the NatOpen being in Texas, and we having so many Texans on this forum, the updates would have been coming faster.

No WiFi I can understand. But no cell phones -- no one can pick up their phone and relay regular updates?

No offense Texan RTFers, but the Californian RTFers beat your coverage.... so far.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

EdA's been doing his part.


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

Great coverage Lainee!! Thanks a bunch for doing all that typing!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Have heard that 50% of the field handled so far


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Just spoke with Vickie

She thinks handles are under 50% and will try to post handles tonight

Dog 71 starts in the morning


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

Just getting home - I left after dog #56 had run - 3:30 Houston time.

They are looking to run 80 dogs today. Finish the rest tommorrow.

Lots of handles - sometimes strings of them. Lots of ugly handles too. 

Dogs that did extremely well that I remember include Howard with Bam, Banner, Mike Cieciro with Maggie. There were very few jobs of that caliber today. Most that did not handle had substancial hunts either behind the dam or in the ditch before the dam. Lots of dogs hanging in the ditch later as drag back built up.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> The other threads, both from the Events forum and this main forum, have been combined to make it easier to stay on top of National Open news.


I would suggest you wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings if you merged the last two National threads you have stickied into one, making it still even easier to follow.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Gerard Rozas said:


> Just getting home - I left after dog #56 had run - 3:30 Houston time.....


How did Buddy (#54) and Brook (#55) do?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Where and* when* are they going to post what happened at the two meetings??

john


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## oaklandbay (Sep 1, 2005)

How did Auggie do


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

oaklandbay said:


> How did Auggie do



http://08nrc.blogspot.com/2008/11/jim-gonia-has-shrunk.html


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

Brook had a "very clean" handle. Billy is 50%. We heard there were also lots of long and ugly hunts which never get reported online.
LM


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Just spoke with someone "in the know" at the National and the judges say this is AFJ...


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

> . We heard there were also lots of long and ugly hunts which never get reported online.


When that happens there are SOME that take offense to the masses knowing too much.;-);-) HPW


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## Josh Conrad (Jul 3, 2005)

Lynn, wish Brook was "clean", but a clean handle is still playin. Good luck to you guys.

Had a good morning training with you and Michael and the rest of the crew.


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

oaklandbay said:


> How did Auggie do


handled on short retired bird


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## oaklandbay (Sep 1, 2005)

WAs hoping the old guy could make it clean


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> Look, I am aware that I am in no position to complain..


there is no argument about that.........most folks here have more important jobs than to post........


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

john fallon said:


> Where and* when* are they going to post what happened at the two meetings??
> 
> john


When the minutes are ready????


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Where and* when* are they going to post what happened at the two meetings??
> 
> john


Sorry John, both meetings were short, quiet, civil, and uneventful.......


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## Mark Rosenblum (Apr 19, 2008)

What is AFJ ? Test is tough enough without code words. Who has this info; clearly there is a mole. Is it FOM?


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

EdA said:


> most folks here have more important jobs than to post........


Very true! But not "all." There has to be someone in the gallery that can make regular cell phone calls to post handles and pick-ups like in years past.

I don't mean to rub it in, but my gosh -- the Californians were able to pull it off!!! :roll:


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Mark Rosenblum said:


> What is AFJ ? Test is tough enough without code words. Who has this info; clearly there is a mole. Is it FOM?


http://www.acronymfinder.com/AFJ.html

Somehow I don't think it is any of these...


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> When the minutes are ready????


For as long as I can remember the meeting information was posted with the Sat. posting. 

Last year there was an overview posted early then the balance posted later. This was a departure from the previous norm.

This year, as of time of this posting, so far we have nothing.

What's up with the RFTN coverage ?

john


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> I don't mean to rub it in, but my gosh -- the Californians were able to pull it off!!! :roll:


yeah, but they weren't doing anything

Sarah Palin Regards....;-)


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## Mark Rosenblum (Apr 19, 2008)

Based on todays performance; it could be "Any F*** job will be called back". whadya ya think?


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## moonstonelabs (Mar 17, 2006)

Retrieved from WRC:
The handles included dogs 94, 95, 96, 102, 103, 1, 2, 5, 6, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 23, 24, 30, 35, 37, 43, 44, 46, 47, 50, 52, 55, 60, and 68. Pick-ups were dog #s 26, 42, 51, 62, and 69.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> as of time of this posting, so far we have nothing.


.......... conspiracy theories are rampant....................

Roswell Regards


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

EdA said:


> yeah, but they weren't doing anything


What does that mean?


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

moonstonelabs said:


> ....Pick-ups were dog #s 26, 42, 51, 62, and 69.


Man, I hate to see that.


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

Can we keep politics out of this?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> conspiracy theories are rampant


No Ed I don't think so.
I think this is what "AFJ" was used to discribe.

The last word is joke regards,

john


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

labhauler said:


> What does that mean?


, 
the answer is (or should be) self evident, people in Texas were working at the National not posting on the internet


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Mark Rosenblum said:


> What is AFJ ?


Well if you don't know then I don't feel so bad. 

I just decided since J is just below U on the keyboard ....

JS


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## labhauler (Oct 22, 2007)

EdA said:


> ,
> the answer is (or should be) self evident, people in Texas were working at the National not posting on the internet


Yea - no-one in California ever works at the Nat Open or any other trial. Maybe we should be importing those hardworking Texans to work our trials.
You are a bad joke, Ed.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> ,
> the answer is (or should be) self evident, people in Texas were working at the National not posting on the internet


The hard part of posting updates is paying attention to EVERY dog. There might be 2-3 people in the entire gallery than can tell you every dog that handled from their own notes.

SM


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

labhauler said:


> Yea - no-one in California ever works at the Nat Open or any other trial. Maybe we should be importing those hardworking Texans to work our trials.
> You are a bad joke, Ed.


labhauler - simmer down. C'mon now.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

labhauler said:


> Yea - no-one in California ever works at the Nat Open or any other trial. Maybe we should be importing those hardworking Texans to work our trials.
> You are a bad joke, Ed.


\

Hold on there children.... I believe Ed's post was meant tongue-in-cheek. And if it wasn't you just sit there and take it.

Little touchy since that amendment passed regards,


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> There might be 2-3 people in the entire gallery than can tell you every dog that handled from their own notes.


Always true. What the Californian RTFers did was identify that person, and then rely on them for the dog work they missed personally.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Kevin, I'm wondering WHY the RN folks don't use the Working Retriever website, an asset they own, for this purpose................

Natural progression regards,

kg


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Whatever happened to the AKC reporter? At Morgan Hill last year, he had his laptop on the hood of somebody's truck, and he was uploading hot news like mad. Maybe he doesn't work on Sundays . Right now the National doesn't exist on the AKC web site.


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## Mark Rosenblum (Apr 19, 2008)

heyKG- might as well stay with the leading website. I'm just perpelexed with the acronym " AFJ" Telander will figure this out; I'm sure










keith


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Mark Rosenblum said:


> heyKG- might as well stay with the leading website. I'm just perpelexed with the acronym " AFJ" Telander will figure this out; I'm sure
> keith


I'm not so sure! ;-)


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

"AFJ" - A f*cking Joke. "This is a f*cking joke."


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

zipmarc said:


> "AFJ" - A f*cking Joke. "This is a f*cking joke."


And here I thought in meant April Fool's Joke. ;-)


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

JKOttman said:


> Just spoke with someone "in the know" at the National and the judges say this is AFJ...


Wonder what the "this" is that is being referred to as "AFJ"........

Pretty _spicy_ first National day, eh? ;-)

A week's worth of intrigue upcoming regards,

kg


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Mark Rosenblum said:


> heyKG- might as well stay with the leading website. I'm just perpelexed with the acronym " AFJ" Telander will figure this out; I'm sure...


Because as Kevin has pointed out, the "coverage" so far is spotty at best. 'Course, after about Tuesday the field will be cut in half (+ or -) and there should be plenty of people around to put phones calls in to individuals to post it up here....;-)

Mark, if an experienced field trialer with a laptop could be dedicated to providing up to the minute/almost "real time" reports either here or on WRC, the current conundrum would be eliminated. I mentioned WRC only because it belongs to NRC/NARC and would further establish the proprietary delivery of the content....but hey, that's up to you....and a few others.;-)

kg


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> Whatever happened to the AKC reporter? At Morgan Hill last year, he had his laptop on the hood of somebody's truck, and he was uploading hot news like mad. Maybe he doesn't work on Sundays . Right now the National doesn't exist on the AKC web site.


The hierarchy and priorities have changed in Raleigh..............

kg


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

I saw the AKC website reported on the Cocker Spaniel National in October.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Mark Rosenblum said:


> What is AFJ ? Test is tough enough without code words. Who has this info; clearly there is a mole. Is it FOM?


Mark,

If you have a question about me being a mole then ask me directly, but do not accuse me of something publically.....

And FYI I am not a mole and did not know what AFJ stood for until I read the thread and another RTFer posted what it meant.

FOM


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

K G said:


> Kevin, I'm wondering WHY the RN folks don't use the Working Retriever website, an asset they own, for this purpose................


You read my mind.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Where are the drawings of the test? I really liked seeing those in conjunction with the photos... and for the record, I am very disappointed with the AKC.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

K G said:


> Wonder what the* "this"* is that is being referred to as "AFJ"........
> 
> Pretty _spicy_ first National day, eh? ;-)
> 
> ...


My guess is that it is the coverage that it is getting that is the "Joke".

john



#*80* john fallon 



> > conspiracy theories are rampant
> 
> 
> No Ed I don't think so.
> ...


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

Yesterday there was a lot more 'visiting' going on than watching dogs.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Just wanted to report on the weather for the week. Sunday was beautiful, starting out cool but clear and ending up pretty warm with lots of people melting into the underbrush for shade in the Gallery.

Predictions for the week don't bode as well, unfortunately.
Monday - 50% chance of thunderstorms
Tuesday - 60% chance of thunderstorms
Wednesday - 50% chance of thunderstorms
Thursday - 30% chance of thunderstorms
Friday - 20% chance of thunderstorms
Saturday - clearing

Disclaimer - Texas weather predictions have been known to be wrong many times - but I do believe we will be packing our rain gear when we go to work our shifts.


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## birdthrower51 (Aug 23, 2004)

I really hope that this early controversy over who is posting what does not stop those in the know from posting. Next best thing to being there. Besides, who is it hurting?
I think many of us check both this site and WRC for all the info we can get. If we do not have the continuous information, we might as well just wait til Sat and check in for the end result.
Thank you to ALL that post, to give us our "fix"
Glenda Seivert


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2008)

I agree Thank You all who post please keep them coming.


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

zipmarc said:


> "AFJ" - A f*cking Joke. "This is a f*cking joke."


haha! Go Mimi! I love it when girls can figure this stuff out first! LOL 

I am appreciative of ANY and ALL coverage; thanks to ALL who report on any activity at the national, beit dogs, handlers, work, weather, etc...

spoiled in the internet age regards ;-),


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

I am about 60 miles west of the National and it is pouring! Visibility is 100 yards at most...whether it will continue like this remains to be seen...

Accoring to radars - it is headed that way


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2008)

SueLab said:


> I am about 60 miles west of the National and it is pouring! Visibility is 100 yards at most...whether it will continue like this remains to be seen...
> 
> Accoring to radars - it is headed that way


Yuck, as if it isn't stressful enough....


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Nancy, we had just a small shower pass through here just now. More on the way, even though the sun is trying to peek through. Radar also shows it moving in the direction of the Open. We are about 45 minutes (driving time) southwest of the Trial.


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

With the recent election allowing for all minority groups to have a voice in our government I was very happy to see than The National Retriever Club has modified it's rules(unwritten) to allow ***** to play a part in the 1st series. Too often we use natural barriers to complicate marking like roads, water and dikes and too often we tend to exclude those who are minorities. Social justice we are all vanilla-no one excels, no one gets left behind.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

yesterday a.m. was my first visit to a field trial after many years of hunt tests and hunting. i get the distinct feeling that "hunt testers" are looked down upon a bit by many field trialers  but i did meet a few really nice folks yesterday who helped explain a few things to me. a few observations:

the shot flyer was a great mark in my opinion. well set up, nice clean line with some rolling terrain and tolerable cover. the shooters did a good job of dropping it in the same general area and a "no bird" was rightly called for one that went up and overhead. i was a bit surprised that there was no wait for a "no bird". why no wait for the first and a 6 dog wait on a second? i would not want to be in that position as a handler, at least let me retire to a holding blind and wait 1 dog to erase at least some of the action from my dogs mind.

i was amazed at how many dogs went over the dam, and when they did how most all the handlers let the dog hunt quite a while out of sight, way longer than i would have and certainly longer than i would expect a pro to do. i fully understand the concept of allowing a dog to hunt and your limited number of allowed handles so you are reluctant to use them in the first series, but once over the damn the holding birds create quite a scent trail and you have no way to know how your dog is handling that "sensory overload". one dog even hit the water and landed the opposite bank. if the dog just worked the area around the hold then worked his way back over the dam, that would be a good hunt IMHO; however, as a handler you have no way to know if your dog is getting over his head in an extended hunt until its too late. 

this series may have been improved by reversing the order making the "dam" bird the sight retrieve and the shot flyer the memory bird.

but then again i am a total newbie so my opinion means squat - i guess this was a great series for thinning the ranks for the rest of the week and would serve a good purpose if intentionally so.........

gotta work this week but i plan to be there friday and sat to see the final series......


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## Trudy (Apr 11, 2006)

*National*

Hello, is there somebody who can tell me if I can see the national 2008 on video.
I did try YBS, but could'nt find it.
I love to see the test and the handlers working their dogs.
Maybe you know a website so I can folow the National from the Netherlands.
Thanks!


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

http://www.working-retriever.com/08nrc/videoindex.html

kg


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Where and* when* are they going to post what happened at the two meetings??
> 
> john


The meeting info is available here


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> i was amazed at how many dogs went over the dam, and when they did how most all the handlers let the dog hunt quite a while out of sight, way longer than i would have and certainly longer than i would expect a pro to do. i fully understand the concept of allowing a dog to hunt and your limited number of allowed handles so you are reluctant to use them in the first series, but once over the damn the holding birds create quite a scent trail and you have no way to know how your dog is handling that "sensory overload". one dog even hit the water and landed the opposite bank. if the dog just worked the area around the hold then worked his way back over the dam, that would be a good hunt IMHO; however, as a handler you have no way to know if your dog is getting over his head in an extended hunt until its too late.


I'm only going to comment on this - as a former HTer one thing I had to learn was not to handle too fast. It is hard to truely understand this when you first see a setup like what is at the National. I'm not there so I can't honestly say a quicker handle would not be apprropriate, however "in general" HTers will handle sooner than a FTer. It can be mind boggling. In training one time my dog was putting up a prolonged hunt and I wanted to handle, my Pro grabbed a chair and told me to sit down and let the dog hunt, granted once again that is a training scenario not a trial let alone the National.....

FOM


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

K G said:


> http://www.working-retriever.com/08nrc/videoindex.html
> 
> kg



awesome - thanks! i was wondering if the line to the fall on the memory bird took it through the creek since so many dogs went around the drainpipe ....


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## Trudy (Apr 11, 2006)

*Thanks*

Thanks for de website from the National!!!
Great now I can see, and feel close to the National
Trudy


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

i fully understand what you mean and like i said i understand about letting the dog hunt - but 40-50 yds away from the mark and i'm usually going to hit that whistle....but then again, i would likely think different if i had to wear that "handle 1st" scarlett letter for the rest of the event... ;-)




FOM said:


> I'm only going to comment on this - as a former HTer one thing I had to learn was not to handle too fast. It is hard to truely understand this when you first see a setup like what is at the National. I'm not there so I can't honestly say a quicker handle would not be apprropriate, however "in general" HTers will handle sooner than a FTer. It can be mind boggling. In training one time my dog was putting up a prolonged hunt and I wanted to handle, my Pro grabbed a chair and told me to sit down and let the dog hunt, granted once again that is a training scenario not a trial let alone the National.....
> 
> FOM


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## Moosetogooseranch (Jan 19, 2008)

SurfgeoD300. Nice reporting.  Maybe you can PM me your cell phone number, so I can get some Live Coverage on Friday and Saturday. 
Keep the reports coming!


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

jeff t. said:


> The meeting info is available here


Was there any discussion of the logic of reopening the entry service with no entry processing fee at all? Are they expecting all costs to be paid by advertising and club fees, or is this simply a transitional approach to try to put EE out of business?


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Moosetogooseranch said:


> SurfgeoD300. Nice reporting.  Maybe you can PM me your cell phone number, so I can get some Live Coverage on Friday and Saturday.
> Keep the reports coming!



well, if the cell phone coverage is decent i'll just take my laptop air-card and post directly from the gallery....!

actually, i'd love to cover the finals for NRC with my camera. i can wear white and sit with the guns/throwers for some good up close action shots for the NRC website - being a long time HTer i know the ropes and would not be a disturbance in the least. i do have a little experience at this...

www.outdoorsphotographyusa.com

if anyone has any pull shoot me a PM.... ;-)

david


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

jeff t. said:


> The meeting info is available here





> ...the latest information on the entry service, RetrieverEntry.com. He informed everyone that the site would be made live on the internet starting November 17th in a Beta state...


As a software developer, the above statement made me laugh....so the current RTF site is not live? And not a beta product? 

FOM


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

I saw a lot of dogs top the dam, cross the road, go out of sight from the handler on the back side of the dam. Once over the hill, it appeared that they couldn't hear the whistles, until they hunted the back side of the dam all the way to the far corner where the live flyers were or til they crossed the big water to the other side and started up the hill beyond the length of the flyer. Also the handler had no idea what the dog was doing back there.

Just before we left I did see one dog - sorry, I don't remember which one but it was black - go over the dam hunt the retired gun station, not get into the water and work on his hunt in a logical fashion, staying in the area of the hunt til he found his bird. 

Also there was a slight wind change around 3:30-4;00ish or maybe the wind just picked up enough so that one dog that was running hard on the top of the dam suddenly put his nose straight up in the air and looked like one of the ranch hands had roped him and pulled him down the dam to the bird. Again,that dog will remain unidentified as I was just watching dogs and not paying close attention.


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## Moosetogooseranch (Jan 19, 2008)

surfgeoD300 said:


> well, if the cell phone coverage is decent i'll just take my laptop air-card and post directly from the gallery....!
> 
> actually, i'd love to cover the finals for NRC with my camera. i can wear white and sit with the guns/throwers for some good up close action shots for the NRC website - being a long time HTer i know the ropes and would not be a disturbance in the least. i do have a little experience at this...
> 
> ...


Wow! Live Coverage would be Great! There's got to be a way.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Just before we left I did see one dog - sorry, I don't remember which one but it was black -



well that certainly narrows it down to what, 103 dogs??


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Yeah, I thought it would help a lot in the identity.;-)


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> well, if the cell phone coverage is decent i'll just take my laptop air-card and post directly from the gallery....!
> 
> actually, i'd love to cover the finals for NRC with my camera. i can wear white and sit with the guns/throwers for some good up close action shots for the NRC website - being a long time HTer i know the ropes and would not be a disturbance in the least. i do have a little experience at this...
> 
> ...


The Big Dog of the RN posts here....he's got some "pull".....;-)

What say you, Mark?

kg


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

The WRC videos sure do make this look like an easy test. (5 videos with dogs all doing a great job on the retired bird). They should show a couple of minutes of blank levee and then show the dog being picked up when he reappears at the flyer station (ran all the was to the flyer on the back side of the levee) or show the dog running up the hill on the other side of the lake (after a long swim) or finally handling after making many passes close to the bird and never coming up with it. Many dogs ran within a few feet of the memory bird and didn't come up with it. Those hen pheasants are tough .......

I don't have a dog in this hunt but if I did I would't hold it against him if he went over the levee, (missing the bird by a few feet) saw the water and said "Oh shi*, I know what to do know" and then he pops up on the far bank. I wouldn't hold it against him but I proly wouldn't sleep that night either! I ain't knockin' no videos or judgin'. I am glad to see the videos, posts, and a little live action when I can.

Just my .02 worth from watching a little while yesterday.

Monday morning quarterbacking regards,
Arturo


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## Brett Krause (Jun 8, 2008)

Surf,
I met you yesterday in the gallery.
I'm the guy from Austin/Round Rock. We discussed your photo trips and dogs and such.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> .....
> Just before we left I did see one dog - sorry, I don't remember which one but it was black -.....


I know EXACTLY which one you meant by your description, but we'll keep it incognito, huh!!


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> ........ Also there was a slight wind change around 3:30-4;00ish or maybe the wind just picked up enough so that one dog that was running hard on the top of the dam suddenly put his nose straight up in the air and looked like one of the ranch hands had roped him and pulled him down the dam to the bird. Again,that dog will remain unidentified as I was just watching dogs and not paying close attention.


I noticed that also. Some dogs even appeared to wind the bird from behind the levee. I saw some yellows AND blacks do that.


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## T Farmer (Aug 27, 2008)

They called back everyone who picked up the birds


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> ... Also the handler had no idea what the dog was doing back there...


And I assume neither did the judges (unless they were relying on someone out in the field to "judge" what the dog was doing).


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

birdthrower51 said:


> I really hope that this early controversy over who is posting what does not stop those in the know from posting. Next best thing to being there. Besides, who is it hurting?


You are correct. There should be no controversy, it does not hurt anyone AS LONG AS there is no subjectivity in the reporting -- "clean, handled, and picked -up" is all that is reported. No "big hunt," etc.

The objective method is obviously imperfect. But it beats the subjective method which is problematic.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

AmiableLabs said:


> You are correct. There should be no controversy, it does not hurt anyone AS LONG AS there is no subjectivity in the reporting -- "clean, handled, and picked -up" is all that is reported. No "big hunt," etc.
> 
> The objective method is obviously imperfect. But it beats the subjective method which is problematic.


seeing as how touchy everyone seems about this i may retract my offer to post from the gallery.... 

who cares what you say so long as you dont name the dog or cite its number/color if it isnt black? what is the real harm? if a dog hunts for 2 solid minutes and barely finds the bird whereas the others step on it, or vice-versa - whats the big deal? and at this level if 75% or more of the dogs are having a serious problem with a certain aspect of the series then doesnt that say something about the series itself, and therefore the judges/set up personnel can all learn from it?

perhaps this part of the series was set up deliberately to help thin the ranks, which for all intents and purposes is what the whole game is about anyway. looks like some people just cant accept criticism, even when its positive and factual.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

For someone who's never played the FT game, you've got an amazing understanding of it, surf....;-)

kg


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

K G said:


> For someone who's never played the FT game, you've got an amazing understanding of it, surf....;-)
> 
> kg


not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic or not  - but i have trained 3 hunt test dogs and handled them in dozens and dozens of sr, master, seasoned, and finished tests and been around enough serious-level HT folks who dab in FTs - and a few FT'ers that show up at HTs (in disguise, of course) to know a bit about it, just never attended an event. i am itching to try my hand at it, and very serious about trying derby next fall, if not late spring - my current pup is still not quite yet 5 mos.....

oh, but he is yellow. would he still be allowed to compete???


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

lanse brown said:


> With the recent election allowing for all minority groups to have a voice in our government I was very happy to see than The National Retriever Club has modified it's rules(unwritten) to allow ***** to play a part in the 1st series. Too often we use natural barriers to complicate marking like roads, water and dikes and too often we tend to exclude those who are minorities. Social justice we are all vanilla-no one excels, no one gets left behind.


Obviously the subtle points of the game are lost on some in this crowd. I would of expected someone to tell you to use spell check. 

Mac


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic or not  - but i have trained 3 hunt test dogs and handled them in dozens and dozens of sr, master, seasoned, and finished tests and been around enough serious-level HT folks who dab in FTs - and a few FT'ers that show up at HTs (in disguise, of course) to know a bit about it, just never attended an event. i am itching to try my hand at it, and very serious about trying derby next fall, if not late spring - my current pup is still not quite yet 5 mos.....
> 
> oh, but he is yellow. would he still be allowed to compete???


Wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all. Kudos go where kudos are warranted!

This year's NAFC is yellow, so I think you're good to go! ;-)



saltmarsh said:


> Obviously the subtle points of the game are lost on some in this crowd. I would of expected someone to tell you to use spell check.
> 
> Mac


In my best "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" voice.....Lanse don't _need_ no stinkin' spell check.....;-)

kg


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

From WRC said:


> The dogs must first pick up the land blind and then *may be* sent for the water blind


Are we to believe they are doing the water blind by invite only (i.e. callbacks)? 

FOM


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

FOM said:


> Are we to believe they are doing the water blind by invite only (i.e. callbacks)?
> 
> FOM


Sure _sounds_ that way......*I* can't _imagine_ a judge in a National wanting to be put in that position......

kg


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Pictures are up of the double blind on WRC.

http://www.working-retriever.com/08nrc/mon.html


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

FOM said:


> Are we to believe they are doing the water blind by invite only (i.e. callbacks)?
> 
> FOM



"May be sent" can also be a polite way of saying pick up the land blind first.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

JKL said:


> "May be sent" can also be a polite way of saying pick up the land blind first.


True.....but I figured that is implied, you pick up then you don't run the water blind, but by saying "may be sent" makes me think of by invite only.....

Anyone have a contact at the National who can confirm? 

Also have to take into account the reporter my not realize the choice of words may impact what we think it means.....the internet can be tough to communicate via sometimes.

Can someone check Vicki's blog - I can't access it from work and see how she worded the description of the test?

FOM


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Vicky simply describes it as two blinds that will be considered series 2 and 3. To me this implies that the judges could thank you for your participation when you return from the land blind and call for the next dog. I would think this is unlikely to happen without performance warranting a pickup.


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

I spoke to someone that has ran....as I suspected it is a polite way of instructing land blind first, water blind second. It is not by invitation.
However, if you pick up on the land blind then you are done.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

JKL said:


> I spoke to someone that has ran....as I suspected it is a polite way of instructing land blind first, water blind second. It is not by invitation.


Cool.....thanks for the update.


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

Lainee,
My opinion, nothing is implied, always confirm instruction.


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

YardleyLabs said:


> Vicky simply describes it as two blinds that will be considered series 2 and 3. To me this implies that the judges could thank you for your participation when you return from the land blind and call for the next dog. I would think this is unlikely to happen without performance warranting a pickup.


I haven't seen anything on Vickies Blog yet, just the descriptions Nicole Busch posted on the WRC site.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

that land blind looks like a cinch.......


the water blind exponentially more difficult, i imagine they must shave that slice of water the entire distance, right? what is the best strategy, try to get the dog to take a line slightly to the right and let it curl back toward the bank as opposed to having it run the bank a little and then having to drive it back at an angle? i am sure a few dogs will hold a super tight line, and that would be fun to see!

>>>
Luann’s shift in training focus began three weeks ago and includes check down birds, islands and long water birds.
<<<

what is a "check down bird"?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

(FC-AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator had fallen ill last evening and has been replaced for the rest of the competition by Jazz.)


Uh oh... what happened to Ted's dog? I hope it's OK...


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

surfgeoD300 said:


> what is a "check down bird"?


A bird that requires the dog check down to find it. Often after a high rolling dog returns from retrieving a longer mark, it may plow through and overrun a shorter mark, especially if it is indented. You gotta put different brakes on the dogs for them to check down.

P.S. An indented bird is a fall which distance from the starting line is shorter that the distance to the gun station.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> that land blind looks like a cinch.......
> 
> 
> the water blind exponentially more difficult, i imagine they must shave that slice of water the entire distance, right? what is the best strategy, try to get the dog to take a line slightly to the right and let it curl back toward the bank as opposed to having it run the bank a little and then having to drive it back at an angle? i am sure a few dogs will hold a super tight line, and that would be fun to see!


No such thing as a "cinch" (yes I see the smiley face). I look at that blind and go, hmmm, dry pop, dogs like to square and dig up a hill or they will fade fast down the hill - holding the side of a hill is tough....now throw in a super fast dog and a short blind - ouch.....not to mention the scent from the marks yesterday. Which way is the wind blowing?

The water has a ton of factors happening....suction short gun, was the dog one that got wet on the marks, so is indicating it is watery, so dogs will go fat and try to be good, that blind is such a blind that the dog could easily be talked out of doing a water blind, especially if they want to dive in early and the handler has to stop and give a cast ot the land, they may not want to cast in the water....

Just my rambling thoughts....

FOM


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> (FC-AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator had fallen ill last evening and has been replaced for the rest of the competition by Jazz.)
> 
> Uh oh... what happened to Ted's dog? I hope it's OK...


I sure hope Moostsie is OK. Best wishes and thoughts Ted and mootsie's way...


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

a lot is my rookiness - not knowing exactly how a blind is judged in FT; i would suspect its about like in Masters, keep the dog as tight as possible and handle cleanly toward the blind. my $.02 would be to get as good of a line as possible, adjust with a handle to the best entry point, and hope my back cast on an angled shoreline is trustworthy.... ;-)

as far as a dry pop, those are used for blinds all the time in HRC tests at least - its the shot that killed the bird the dog didnt see. but then again almost all shots are from the line there....

as far as wind, yesterday was east, today southeast - my guess is looking at the far blind being 12:00, wind should be from about 4:00 or so, so a dog sliding down the hill should hit the scent; the area is rich in yesterday's and early this am falls, but the rain should tamp that down a bit




FOM said:


> No such thing as a "cinch" (yes I see the smiley face). I look at that blind and go, hmmm, dry pop, dogs like to square and dig up a hill or they will fade fast down the hill - holding the side of a hill is tough....now throw in a super fast dog and a short blind - ouch.....not to mention the scent from the marks yesterday. Which way is the wind blowing?
> 
> The water has a ton of factors happening....suction short gun, was the dog one that got wet on the marks, so is indicating it is watery, so dogs will go fat and try to be good, that blind is such a blind that the dog could easily be talked out of doing a water blind, especially if they want to dive in early and the handler has to stop and give a cast ot the land, they may not want to cast in the water....
> 
> ...


----------



## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

FOM said:


> No such thing as a "cinch" (yes I see the smiley face). I look at that blind and go, hmmm, dry pop, dogs like to square and dig up a hill or they will fade fast down the hill - holding the side of a hill is tough....now throw in a super fast dog and a short blind - ouch.....not to mention the scent from the marks yesterday. Which way is the wind blowing?
> 
> The water has a ton of factors happening....suction short gun, was the dog one that got wet on the marks, so is indicating it is watery, so dogs will go fat and try to be good, that blind is such a blind that the dog could easily be talked out of doing a water blind, especially if they want to dive in early and the handler has to stop and give a cast ot the land, they may not want to cast in the water....
> 
> ...


Add to it dogs push off guns, they are not comfortable being too close to the visible blind planter and the dry shot.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

surfgeoD300 said:


> .....not knowing exactly how a blind is judged in FT; .....


There's only one perfect line from the starting line (point A) to the bird (point B) - whether or not it's a mark or a blind. The perfect line is a straight line from point A to point B. Don't think you need to differentiate whether it's FT or HT.

Simply put, how the judge evaluates the deviation from the straight line lies the challenge in grading a dog's performance. That's a snapshot of the "forest", while looking at all the "trees".


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

zipmarc said:


> There's only one perfect line from the starting line (point A) to the bird (point B) - whether or not it's a mark or a blind. The perfect line is a straight line from point A to point B. Don't think you need to differentiate whether it's FT or HT.
> 
> Simply put, how the judge evaluates the deviation from the straight line lies the challenge in grading a dog's performance. That's a snapshot of the "forest", while looking at all the "trees".


so you are saying a FT judge judges exactly the same as a HT judge?

should i be using spell check as well as idiot check?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic or not  - but i have trained 3 hunt test dogs and handled them in dozens and dozens of sr, master, seasoned, and finished tests and been around enough serious-level HT folks who dab in FTs - and a few FT'ers that show up at HTs (in disguise, of course) to know a bit about it, just never attended an event. i am itching to try my hand at it, and very serious about trying derby next fall, if not late spring - my current pup is still not quite yet 5 mos.....
> 
> oh, but he is yellow. would he still be allowed to compete???


A YELLOW.....there goes your credibility...

/Paul


----------



## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

zipmarc said:


> There's only one perfect line from the starting line (point A) to the bird (point B) - whether or not it's a mark or a blind. The perfect line is a straight line from point A to point B. Don't think you need to differentiate whether it's FT or HT.
> 
> Simply put, how the judge evaluates the deviation from the straight line lies the challenge in grading a dog's performance. That's a snapshot of the "forest", while looking at all the "trees".





surfgeod330 said:


> so you are saying a FT judge judges exactly the same as a HT judge?
> 
> should i be using spell check as well as idiot check?


Nope. Where did I say that? All I said was a straight line is a straight line, and a straight line is the perfect line from the line to the fall or blind. That'll be the same whether it's FT or HT.

Now, how a judge evaluates the deviation from that straight line is based on a thousand and one factors.

Sorry for having to repeat everything, folks.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

zipmarc said:


> Nope. Where did I say that? All I said was a straight line is a straight line, and a straight line is the perfect line from the line to the fall or blind. That'll be the same whether it's FT or HT.
> 
> Now, how a judge evaluates the deviation from that straight line is based on a thousand and one factors.
> 
> Sorry for having to repeat everything, folks.


 i learned the shortest distance from point a to point b is a straight line in like 2nd grade, thank you. thats a big DUH. but the reality of a dog running that perfect line is a different manner. the chance for a call back can be very different in a test situation vs. place competition

now if you are so good that all your dogs will run that water blind in a perfectly straight line then my hat is off to you. i was merely trying to get some input on strategy of attacking that blind knowing that most of the dogs likely wont run it as perfect as you describe straight from the line with no correction.

and dont worry, no need to bother everyone else by repeating everything all over again because of your perceived stupidity on my part, i get it!  i guess now i need to run idiot check as well as dumba$$ check and spell check on all my posts... 

i cant wait for video of todays series....


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

irregardless of the dog getting the blind, what about the return? the temptation to run that bank has to be very high, wish i could be watching that!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> irregardless of the dog getting the blind, what about the return? the temptation to run that bank has to be very high, wish i could be watching that!


So what would you do? Would you handle on the return? Not worry about it?

Also what would be your strategy for running the blinds?

FOM


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Just my 2 cents, and based on my dogs, but would rather a thin line, cast towards water, that a fat one, casting away.

Is that kind of what you were looking for, Surf?


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

surfgeoD300 said:


> irregardless .......


That's a good one!;-)


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

well, not having trained specifically for FT but training not to run banks, if my dog did not immediately return to the water the instant she picked up the bird i would stop her and give her a 45degree come in handle, knowing her that would likely do the trick. not sure if in FT the dog is automatically expected to return by water, even with such a thin sliver of water there, but i would imagine so. that is as tempting of a bank run as you can get and still come close to calling it fair.

i do a lot of training with angles across big drainage ditches (heck, thats the only topography we have here), so the land blind to me really looks like a gimme, not to sound over confident. decent chance to step on it, but very likely to take 1 or 2 whistles. the water blind is tough. i am pretty certain the dog would veer off that perfect line a bit by the time she got up on the dam, so i would imagine i would have to handle her to the entry point then give a cast back (probably a 45 deg cast right to account for shoreline suck), with another 2 or 3 whistles to keep her on track. in short, Rigby (back right of my avatar) would very likely get it, but it would take 7 or 8 whistles. i'd think the judges would be happy to see me leave the line after that.....


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

surfgeoD300 said:


> because of your perceived stupidity on my part, i get it!  i guess now i need to run idiot check as well as dumba$$ check and spell check on all my posts...


Relax. You are not being attacked.


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

surfgeoD300 said:


> well, not having trained specifically for FT but training not to run banks, if my dog did not immediately return to the water the instant she picked up the bird i would stop her and give her a 45degree come in handle, knowing her that would likely do the trick. not sure if in FT the dog is automatically expected to return by water, even with such a thin sliver of water there, but i would imagine so. that is as tempting of a bank run as you can get and still come close to calling it fair.
> 
> ....


Time is a major priority. After the dog has retrieved the blind, the judges will usually have a quicker return route, almost always by land.
In FT the route to the bird is much more important than the return.

FT blinds are not judged the same as HT blinds for the simple reason that FT dogs are judged against each other, it is relative to the field, and HT dogs are up against a standard.


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

SURFGEOD300

what you are doing is called "hijacking" this Thread
In other words, you are not sticking to the subject
which is, what is going on at the national
not how you would run it

you can read the rules at AKC.org
you can research questions here on RTN using the search tool
or you could start a new thread

we enjoyed your account of what you watched yesterday
thanks

I am not a moderator, but I must sound like one
sorry

D


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

How can he hi jack his own thread?


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

DeWitt Boice said:


> SURFGEOD300
> 
> what you are doing is called "hijacking" this Thread
> In other words, you are not sticking to the subject
> ...




well, my feelings are deeply hurt, you used all caps in my name and that is just plain mean to yell at me like that.

sorry for hijacking my own thread. funny - others were happy to discuss the rules as they pertained to the exact series being run at this moment. not exactly what i would call hijacking off the original topic - oh, and if you read a little you will see that i was ASKED how i would run it.

wow, what a meanie. i'll go now and let you keep playing moderator if thats what gets you off.

good day


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

2tall said:


> How can he hi jack his own thread?


Good question, I looked back and it all started with him asking questions about the Natl! Whats changed?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

David,

D isn't really a meanie he is just cranky  The weather here is turning for the worse and I'm sure he is itching to go skiing.

Just poke him with a cattle prod and he'll be quiet! :lol: 

FOM


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

This is what happens when we try to confine ALL questions/inquiries/comments about this National Retriever Championship to ONE THREAD.......................

And it's only _Monday_ regards, ;-)

kg


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

2tall said:


> How can he hi jack his own thread?


I believe this thread is an amalgam of several threads that were lumped together last night by Vicky...in attempt to keep all of the National discussion in one place..so there may be more than one originator.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wow, here i am with just 16 posts and i have already become a controversial member!

isn't there an award or something like that for me?

i am destined for greatness here, i'll tell ya!


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

surfgeoD300 said:


> wow, here i am with just 16 posts and i have already become a controversial member!
> 
> isn't there an award or something like that for me?
> 
> i am destined for greatness here, i'll tell ya!


Trust me buddy, you have accomplished nothing. The record cant be beat on controversial posting!


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

It would be great if we could just keep it to what is actually going on at the National instead of all this back and forth personal stuff. My dog is there and we are not, so it would helpful and interesting to hear what is happening, like the dogs' work, gallery observations, etc. instead of peoples interpretation of the rules and definitions. Let the three judges judge.
Thanks,
Lynn


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

surfgeoD300 said:


> wow, here i am with just 16 posts and i have already become a controversial member!
> 
> isn't there an award or something like that for me?
> 
> i am destined for greatness here, i'll tell ya!


You need to spend a little time over at the POTUS forum if you want controversy!


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

But that is what this particular thread started as. There is another thread started by Shayne, why has nobody used it for strictly 2008 National updates?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

JKL said:


> But that is what this particular thread started as. There is another thread started by Shayne, why has nobody used it for strictly 2008 National updates?


I haven't heard any updates.....as soon as I hear them I update the list on the other thread.....anyone got any news? Any known pick ups?

FOM


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

list mist @ 4:20 dog 75 running, likely will have 12-15 dogs in the morning, then a triple with water involved

from the gallery it appears that most dogs have handled the double blind without a great deal of difficulty, over analysis on the internet notwithstanding.......;-)


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

jeff t. said:


> I believe this thread is an amalgam of several threads that were lumped together last night by Vicky...in attempt to keep all of the National discussion in one place..so there may be more than one originator.


After consideration, Chris posted the following:



> Guys and Gals,
> 
> RTF is here for YOUR use. Please do not let us dictate what threads you post National Open information under.
> 
> ...


We don't plan on combining future threads.


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

FOM said:


> I haven't heard any updates.....as soon as I hear them I update the list on the other thread.....anyone got any news? Any known pick ups?
> 
> FOM


I am posting updates on the thread started by Shayne.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

zipmarc said:


> There's only one perfect line from the starting line (point A) to the bird (point B) - whether or not it's a mark or a blind. The perfect line is a straight line from point A to point B. . . .Simply put, how the judge evaluates the deviation from the straight line lies the challenge in grading a dog's performance. That's a snapshot of the "forest", while looking at all the "trees".


Rather than threadjack, I am going to start a new thread on this if anyone is interested.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

AmiableLabs said:


> Rather than threadjack, I am going to start a new thread on this if anyone is interested.


geez guys i get the hint, i'll leave.....i am a rank newbie so i apologize for not knowing all of your rulz. it seems to me it could help a few others to discuss the actual series and its issues as it is being run. didnt realize this was a coat and tie affair....


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Start a new one ? Here is one that is well on it's way

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11613&highlight=lazer

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

JKL said:


> Trust me buddy, you have accomplished nothing. The record cant be beat on controversial posting!


I might just hold that record

john


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

surfgeoD300 said:


> geez guys i get the hint, i'll leave.....i am a rank newbie so i apologize for not knowing all of your rulz. it seems to me it could help a few others to discuss the actual series and its issues as it is being run. didnt realize this was a coat and tie affair....


The new thread is overdue. A new one should be started for each series .... I think!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

jeff t. said:


> The meeting info is available here


Wow it is only Monday 


john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> wow, here i am with just 16 posts and i have already become a controversial member!
> 
> isn't there an award or something like that for me?
> 
> i am destined for greatness here, i'll tell ya!


 
Rookie, you won't even come close until Chris has to ban or chastise you a dozen times.....

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Wow it is only Monday
> 
> john


As post #190 said.....

;-) regards,

kg


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## clearwater (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm sorry to interupt, but has anyone heard what dog they ended with and what the plan is for tomorrow morning?

I do know that it has been raining very hard since around 5:30. When I left around 4:15 they were on track to make it to the late 80's.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Start a new one ? Here is one that is well on it's way
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11613&highlight=lazer
> 
> john



That thread has already died _twice_, John.....what has happened _today_ that merits resurrecting it?

Just curious regards,

kg


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> geez guys i get the hint, i'll leave.....i am a rank newbie so i apologize for not knowing all of your rulz. it seems to me it could help a few others to discuss the actual series and its issues as it is being run. didnt realize this was a coat and tie affair....


Loosen your grip, David....it's all about the dogs here....it's just some folks here have dogs that are there, some folks here have had dogs there, and some folks here look at this week as the World Series of Retriever Field Trials/Open version. Just hang on and watch....you've got a good grip on the game. Ease off a tad and let the week develop. It'll get a WHOLE lot more exciting as the week goes on! ;-)

kg


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

moorelabs said:


> It would be great if we could just keep it to what is actually going on at the National instead of all this back and forth personal stuff. My dog is there and we are not, so it would helpful and interesting to hear what is happening, like the dogs' work, gallery observations, etc. instead of peoples interpretation of the rules and definitions. Let the three judges judge.
> Thanks,
> Lynn



so well spoken please i would like to read about the national


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

JKL said:


> But that is what this particular thread started as. There is another thread started by Shayne, why has nobody used it for strictly 2008 National updates?


im sure if you started it all will follow


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

K G said:


> Loosen your grip, David....it's all about the dogs here....it's just some folks here have dogs that are there, some folks here have had dogs there, and some folks here look at this week as the World Series of Retriever Field Trials/Open version. Just hang on and watch....you've got a good grip on the game. Ease off a tad and let the week develop. It'll get a WHOLE lot more exciting as the week goes on! ;-)
> 
> kg


yeah but again, i just followed *my own thread *that i started before it got "amalgamated" and suddenly i am to blame, whatever.

but i dont understand why someone could have a dog there and they are not there? isn't that like not being at your sons ncaa national championship football game? and all these people want to know is who ran how many yds, and not care about details such as how their fellow teammates blocked and how the coaches strategized to make sure the right plays happened?

but then i guess when you send a dog off for years for training its not quite like your own kid. its more of an investment than a relationship.

cheers!


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

surfgeoD300 said:


> yeah but again, i just followed *my own thread *that i started before it got "amalgamated" and suddenly i am to blame, whatever.
> 
> but i dont understand why someone could have a dog there and they are not there? isn't that like not being at your sons ncaa national championship football game? and all these people want to know is who ran how many yds, and not care about details such as how their fellow teammates blocked and how the coaches strategized to make sure the right plays happened?
> 
> ...


A lot of these people on here have pro trained dogs. Doesn't mean all they do is send a check and thats that. As for nationals, not most normal human beings with jobs, families etc etc can take the time off to run it. You need to schedule at least a week for the trial, and most take another week for pre-national training. Thats two weeks off of work. If you can get away with that, kudos to you. 

I've been the rookie who argued over everything, you won't win against this group. There are some tough stubborn ones on this board. I cut my losses after so long and tried starting over. 

Just sayin regards. Have a good one


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> I've been the rookie who argued over everything, you won't win against this group. There are some tough stubborn ones on this board. I cut my losses after so long and tried starting over.


Do you think - upon reflection - that you reached some of your conclusions with insufficient data?


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

JeffLusk said:


> A lot of these people on here have pro trained dogs. Doesn't mean all they do is send a check and thats that. As for nationals, not most normal human beings with jobs, families etc etc can take the time off to run it. You need to schedule at least a week for the trial, and most take another week for pre-national training. Thats two weeks off of work. If you can get away with that, kudos to you.
> 
> I've been the rookie who argued over everything, you won't win against this group. There are some tough stubborn ones on this board. I cut my losses after so long and tried starting over.
> 
> Just sayin regards. Have a good one


I can vouch for you Jeff!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> A lot of these people on here have pro trained dogs. Doesn't mean all they do is send a check and thats that. As for nationals, not most normal human beings with jobs, families etc etc can take the time off to run it. You need to schedule at least a week for the trial, and most take another week for pre-national training. Thats two weeks off of work. If you can get away with that, kudos to you.
> 
> I've been the rookie who argued over everything, you won't win against this group. There are some tough stubborn ones on this board. I cut my losses after so long and tried starting over.
> 
> Just sayin regards. Have a good one


I know one pro who told their client to "stay the F--- away." The dog goes crazy when the owner is around, and the dog has been running very well lately. The owner took it well, and perhaps is even lurking on this board...


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## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

Please help! Have been trying to find a list of dogs and handlers showing status so far and hopefully updated as we go. Am sure it is somewhere - saw Lanee's list but it didn't seem to have handlers. Over here we know some of the people running but certainly not the call names, etc (other than Howard's who posts on our forum). So a comprehensive list if possible would be great and if it alrady exists, where can it be found?


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2008)

pmw said:


> Please help! Have been trying to find a list of dogs and handlers showing status so far and hopefully updated as we go. Am sure it is somewhere - saw Lanee's list but it didn't seem to have handlers. Over here we know some of the people running but certainly not the call names, etc (other than Howard's who posts on our forum). So a comprehensive list if possible would be great and if it alrady exists, where can it be found?


you can cross reference with the list at wrc...
http://www.working-retriever.com/08nrc/summary.htm

or if you have an account on Entry Express, you can look at the national pickem there... (the banner text floating across the top of the page)

-K


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Do you think - upon reflection - that you reached some of your conclusions with insufficient data?


I think conclusions have been made for me.  

Most questions can be answered with that magic search key. If that isn't sufficient I either google the heck out of it and read, or talk to someone on here personally who I feel may know/have experience with that. 

I try to keep my posts limited to threads that don't involve my opinion unless I feel absolutely certain I can back it up, or to threads regarding pics, deaths, or congrats. Dog people are great, but word travels fast. No need to get your name out there the wrong way.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

At the risk of derailing this combination of threads yet again, Jeff, you were a newbie who survived trial by fired, took everything thrown at you with grace and by golly, you've matured a lot over the past year, many could learn a lot from you.


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## Gwen Jones (Jun 19, 2004)

Where did we get to in the rotation before the trial shut down last night? Who is first starting dog today and what time were they to get started? I am confused by which thread to read to keep up with the dog work.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32672


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