# AMATUERS – Why do you OR don’t you run field trials?



## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

I read about this all the time on RTF but has there ever been a post asking the amateurs what they think about Field Trials? 

My 2-cents as an amateur who has ran HT’s for darn near 10-years now and worked more FT’s than I can count is it doesn’t look like much fun. 

• I have no desire to steer my dog on 300+ yard water blinds.
• I have no desire to watch a field of 100 dogs pick up 400 yard marks.
• I have no desire to compete against other handlers - pro or amateur. 
• I have no desire to empty my bank account on pros, dogs, travel and entry fees.
• I have no desire to collect FT titles or even HT titles for that matter. 
• I have no desire to deal with politics. 
• I have no desire to be away from the family every other weekend. 

I’m just not FT material. You?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Robert said:


> I read about this all the time on RTF but has there ever been a post asking the amateurs what they think about Field Trials?
> 
> My 2-cents as an amateur who has ran HT’s for darn near 10-years now and worked more FT’s than I can count is it doesn’t look like much fun.
> 
> ...


I did not run Field Trials for a long time. I remember at a NAHRA test in Lake Champlain telling Paul Stuart, who then translated to Daniel Desgagne in French: "I'm not a Field Trialer and I never will be one".

You may find that you get a dog who seems special. You may find that your training abilities, or just the way you click with a special dog, makes you wonder "what if".

My only comment: Never say Never.

I agree with some of your bullet points above. I personally find it costs the same to run a local Field Trial as it does to run a local hunt test. I've boxes of hunt test ribbons that I'll likely never open again. 

Do what suits you on event day. Don't committ today that you will forever fit into the same box in the future.

You just can't predict what may be in the future. 

Watch out...you may find when you're standing there at the end of the 4th listening to them hand out jams, RJ's and they haven't called your name out yet, that it is pretty darn cool. 

Chris


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't have the time to train my dogs to actually be COMPETITIVE.

I have no desire to send the dog to a pro. I want to do the training myself, perhaps working with a pro. Until I have the time to get to a level where I believe I could actually compete, I won't be attending any FT's.

Once I have that time, I will then have to cross the mental bridge of why I would be asking the dogs to do some of the things required to be competitive at FT's. Certainly don't need most of what is required at FT's to have a very nice hunting dog, and to me that's what it is all about. 

I find some of the technical aspects to be ONLY for the sake of the game and/or separation of dogs. Not really sure I would enjoy that just to say I won. 

I think there are other things in life where I feel much better about getting the competitive juices flowing. I'm not so sure "my dog is better than your dog" is the right competitive venue for me.


That said, I do enjoy Hunt tests. I can get my dogs to a competent level where we work as a team and can handle most any hunting scenario. I also enjoy the challenge of a well designed and executed test.


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

Thanks Chris.

I agree with never say never as anything can change. Myself included. But at the end of 10-years of being somewhat successful in HT's and working FT's numerous times each year this is my perception as of today. 

I'm very curious to what others have to say as chatter on RTF makes me believe FT folks are genuinely concerned about the lack of new blood in the sport. Therefore let’s hear from the Amateurs.

Heck, I might even learn something and come away with a slightly different perspective.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Watch out...you may find when you're standing there at the end of the 4th listening to them hand out jams, RJ's and they haven't called your name out yet, that it is pretty darn cool.
> 
> Chris


Funny Chris, that brings back a memory. First time I ever got BLUE the called out all the places including 2nd, and being the infinitely optimistic guy that I am I was thinking what the heck, I'm not going to get any ribbon today? Then I heard through the fog, and first place goes to Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash! Pretty freak'in sweet, even if it was only a derby.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Robert said:


> ...
> • I have no desire to watch a field of 100 dogs pick up 400 yard marks.


I don't either, so I don't watch em all.



Robert said:


> ...
> • I have no desire to compete against other handlers - pro or amateur.


I do. And almost every one I know in the games, whether HT or FT also has the desire to compete. Just go to a HT club training day and see how many HTers try to win the trainnig session rather than train their dogs.



Robert said:


> ...
> • I have no desire to empty my bank account on pros, dogs, travel and entry fees.


Nor do I. So I train my own dog, bought my pups in the $800-1,250 rather than $3-5k range, and sold my boat (which is another bottomless pit we pour money in to). 



Robert said:


> ...
> • I have no desire to collect FT titles or even HT titles for that matter.


I do desire to collect FT Titles and to a lesser extent HT Titles. I don't see myself persuing HT titles on the next pup I start but I will persue FT Titles.



Robert said:


> ...
> • I have no desire to deal with politics.


You are not alone here.



Robert said:


> ...
> • I have no desire to be away from the family every other weekend.


Me either, so I take my family with me.



Robert said:


> ...
> My 2-cents as an amateur who has ran HT’s for darn near 10-years now and worked more FT’s than I can count is it doesn’t look like much fun.


Sometimes it isn't fun. But when it goes right and you are watching your dog bust her rear to pick up those birds, not for a ribbon, title, points, or plaque, but because she knows its what you and her have been working so hard together in training to achieve, well that's just one hell of a feeling.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I am similar to youself in that I had helped out a lot a field trials and been in the hunt test game for about 7 years and quit after I had a dog with EIC that I couldn't run in tests.I decided that after I had gotten back into the game and got a dog to the SH level if she had enough to go further I would go for Qual instead of an MH.I feel there are too many tricks in Master now and it takes about as much time and money to get an MH.I trained on field trial marks any way.So far been with the trainer 3 months and 2 qual jams in some very tough tests.I ran her in her first trial and I bombed not the dog.I actually enjoy having a dog that can handle the technical aspects.I used to run All Age GSP in trials so I know what it takes to win and which is why (as long as I can afford it) I have her with a VERY good pro because I don't have the time or especially the grounds.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

If I had more access to "bigger property" and a little better water, I would pile right in there and happily take my licks. You can train a nice HT dog with limited access to good grounds. I dunno about a FT dog.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Buzz said:


> Funny Chris, that brings back a memory. First time I ever got BLUE the called out all the places including 2nd, and being the infinitely optimistic guy that I am I was thinking what the heck, I'm not going to get any ribbon today? Then I heard through the fog, and first place goes to Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash! Pretty freak'in sweet, even if it was only a derby.


I'm going to try & duplicate your story next weekend. Going to run her on some blinds & singles as we speak. Of course I'm also excited to take her duck hunting tomorrow morning.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I run trials occasionally because there is nothing more exciting or thrilling than seeing my dog doing what he does best and blasting straight to every mark and setting the grass on fire.

I am not really a competitive person, but I do like to run once in a while just to see what kind of progress we are making. I don't run hunt tests right now. My first dog will never have the line manners to meet that standard. I hope to go back to them some after seeing how my new pup does in some derbies.

So my answer is yes I do run field trials. I do it because I am an adrenaline junky but I don't want to race motorcycles


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## Scott Lynch (Nov 21, 2011)

Going back to the original post and what other amatuers think. I myself would love to run both to try them out. I am getting my first pup to train myself in Feb-Mar, but I am also clueless to what the costs are and how far I am going to have to travel.

I also dont have land myself, so I will be at the mercy of whatever public parks i can use or farmers who are gracious enough to let me use thier land and/or water.

So yeah, I want to try them out first before committing for any length of time.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

I ran my last Field Trial 7392 days ago. 

Still one-day-at-time, but it's getting easier.


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## Goldens09 (May 13, 2009)

Robert- To give alittle chatter, as an amateur, I thinkk the numbers are down due to not just one thing, but many things, Such as economy, people not making as much money and more difficulty and time to get that hard earned money to spend on getting your dog trained to be at competitive level. I believe the already titled dogs have cut back in running due to expensive costs and their already titled. I think the pro's have seen somewhat of a cut back in training dogs also. There should be a concern on were are the new people at. I think a whole lot of it comes down to judgeing or judges. Field Trials have a 75-80 dog major stake and they seem to feel like they have to only give out 1st-4th, RJ, and a couple other jams. Minor stakes or the same way. What does it hurt to give out some Jam Ribbons, thats what new people want, thats what makes them rush back hime to enter the next trial. I say if a judge has to narrow the field down to only 6-or 7 dogs then I think we are hurting the game. A judge should easily have his seperation for his placements and if 10 or 15 others did the work you asked them for all weeked, why are they not desirving of a JAM RIBBON. Hunt test people are sucked in in the junior as a very high completion rate is given, which makes them want to go on to senior or master levels. Field Trials should learn from them and hand out more ribbons if they want new people in the game. We have some great people in the game that has been in it for a long time, witch are now getting to the older side, that has kept the game going, when these peole are gone who's in place of them? Like every young person that is on the basket ball or football team, if they aren't called in to play or on the starting line most of them quit. They don't want to game after game and not play. So how many new people want to go to trials and never get a ribbon? Not very many.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

For me the first thing is being competive. How can I compete with the full time pro's and the hard core am's? I don't think I can no matter how good I think my dog is. I don't have land or water access like others or the biggest thing of time. I'm not at the level required yet if ever in my handling either. I also think that even if my dog were capable he hasn't been trained towards FT's so why bother. Now don't get me wrong, I'll never say another dog is better than him even if his great grand daddy Lean Mac was honor dog and just finished running. We'd step to the line and do our thing. We would probably get our behinds handed to us, but we'd go down trying.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I've run HT's for about 7 years now and have a great time. I ran 4 Derbies this last spring and got my butt kicked. Actually it was one of the most embarrasing tthings I've done. My dog didn't pick up a single bird. In a year he's a completely different dog. So much so that I'm going to run Q's this coming spring. Call me a glutton for punishment but yes I'm coming back for a second dose. The reason why is that I like to compete. Even at a HT I'll compare my dogs work to other dogs work. I have just as many trials as test that I can run every spring and fall so there isn't a cost difference between the two. My dog is with a Pro for training also, so again no real cost difference.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I'm going to try & duplicate your story next weekend. Going to run her on some blinds & singles as we speak. Of course I'm also excited to take her duck hunting tomorrow morning.



Well, based on the following, I'd say you got the eternal optimist part down pat! :lol::lol::lol::lol::

Hope she doesn't go into heat on ya!;-)




Jacob Hawkes said:


> I watch my lil girl get beat soundly enough by the young ones on Clay's truck. Maybe one of these days both man & dog won't have to walk back with our tails tucked regards.





Jacob Hawkes said:


> Bumping this. My yellow dog will run next month. You'll know which one she is by her big stature and the inability to mark or run out of sight in a month. Out in the 1st series regards.






Jacob Hawkes said:


> Well I appreciate the kind words Mr. Vic, but I maintain my yellow dog isn't worth a flip. If you wanna watch a dog crash & burn, make sure and catch Beans @ a FT near you. Heck that girl might not even pick a single bird up. Hopefully the gunners throw a couple dozen birds out so that dog of mine can find one.






Jacob Hawkes said:


> I'm ready to see her compete too. I watch her get her butt kicked enough.
> 
> 
> I get humbled enough each and every time I get to go training. Anything good is a pleasant surprise. Still waiting for all that.






Jacob Hawkes said:


> I donno about dog gods, but I comment on other people's dogs and all I get is something like a stray.
> 
> 
> 
> The last part might be the truth. LOL. Then again I could always bring up the, "I told ya so." routine.






Jacob Hawkes said:


> Finally the week has arrived. A few dogs with points in the field. Lacey with 37, Cisco with 51, Indy with 12 (Also QAA.), & numerous dogs with single digit points. If you happen to be @ the North Dakota FT, you can see all those nice derby dogs & a misfit. The misfit will be easy to see. The carnage from her crashing & burning is likely to create a disturbance large enough that the local news might stop by. If they ask what is going on, just tell them some "Character" thought it would be funny to have a yellow dog enter. This time next week she will still be searching for the elephant.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Running in a Field Trial is like getting into fly fishing.

You read about it, talk to some others that do it, you might even watch someone do it and both seem darn near impossible.

Whether you enter your dog or buy a fly rod, once you get going you find that it really isn't that hard.

Ok maybe fly fishing is a little hard and field trials are real hard, but it's kind of like that anyway.

If you have realistic expectations and train with a group that can show you what to expect, and they think you're ready, go and try it.

If you enjoy training a dog and want to see how your training's progressing, go and try it. If you go out in the first series you won't be alone. 

It takes a good dog, good training, good handling and at least a little luck, but when you start getting to the end it's a pretty nice endeavor...


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

John Lash said:


> If you enjoy training a dog and want to see how your training's progressing, go and try it. *If you go out in the first series you won't be alone. *
> 
> It takes a good dog, good training, good handling and at least a little luck, but when you start getting to the end it's a pretty nice endeavor...


That blue I was talking about in my earlier post. The week before we won, he couldn't pick up the flyer in the first series. I almost scratched him from the next trial, glad I didn't! You just NEVER KNOW!!!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

John Lash said:


> Running in a Field Trial is like getting into fly fishing.
> 
> You read about it, talk to some others that do it, you might even watch someone do it and both seem darn near impossible.
> 
> ...


John, ever hear of a guy named Tony Marasco? Pittsburgh area.

He's the guy who first really taught me to cast a flyrod. He had me casting right and left hand equally in my first session...that was around 1979 or so.

We used to hit the flyfishing only section on Slippery Rock when I was a kid. Then we'd go up to Potter CO. and fish the Kettle and Crossfork. I went to Penn State and had some fun on the rivers up that way...and got to take Joe Humphrey's "Anglinig" class, which counted as a phys ed credit.

How awesome it was to walk along behind Joe Humphreys and watch him ninja some Spring Creek browns.

Chris


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Buzz said:


> Well, based on the following, I'd say you got the eternal optimist part down pat! :lol::lol:
> 
> Hope she doesn't go into heat on ya!;-)


No doubt. I get humbled each & every time I get to train with Clay/Mr. Danny. Needless to say the other Ams that train with them love for me to come down & train. A yellow dog & the worst handler by far? If the shoe fits. LOL. 

Luckily she went into heat the week of Bluebonnet. The following week I got to train & her 1st heat cycle was something else. Needless to say, she didn't know what was going on with her & her momentum/attitude sucked. If nothing else, her attitude & momentum are back where they need to be. Of course this means she can run around quicker. ;-);-)


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Robert said:


> I read about this all the time on RTF but has there ever been a post asking the amateurs what they think about Field Trials?
> 
> My 2-cents as an amateur who has ran HT’s for darn near 10-years now and worked more FT’s than I can count is it doesn’t look like much fun.
> 
> ...


To reply: I love trying to steer my 2 yo on long blinds land or water. Presently working on increasing the distances.I find it challenging but we have lots to learn yet. 
I too have no desire to watch a field of dogs either at the HRC or FT but want to run my own and can hardly wait my turn when running HRC. Having said that there are certain dogs I would be watching out for and certain people. You can learn alot!! Working towards Finished pass-need just 3 more. 
I have no desire to deal with politics any where!!
And I would not plan to run every weekend. I don't do that now in HRC. 
I hope to try a FT in 2012. 
For the effort and time I put into my dog I will run my dog against my own work and progress trying to improve. I do enjoy training my own dog and it is nice to have a good BML who loves to run! I like to test him and see how we are both doing! It is nice to see us do well and encourages you to continue! It is fun!! that is the secret have fun plus lots of hard work!!!!IMO


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## godoggo (May 10, 2011)

I think that there are people that are professional dog handlers that claim to be amateurs running in field trials. It is not really an amateur stake. Also for a younger person who works and is more limited on times to train. Even though I dedicate time as I can. Who can compete with people that that is all they do? It would be nice to see age groups maybe. I was interested but started researching and realize I would never be competitive or near enough trials.
This year I was introduced more to NAHRA and really like the feel of the events. Also tried my hand at an HRC training day and liked what that had to do much more than the AKC tests.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My Lack of interest in FT's? The main reason is because it seems down here the vast majority of them run Sept.-Jan. when everyone's vacating the North, amazingly hunting season also runs Sept.-Jan. I just got different priorities for my dog at that time . I do admit to going over and watching a few, way too many dogs, a lot of waiting around, and mostly pros. I can barely handle the tedium of a Master test. There's no way me or my dogs could sit around blowing bubbles that long, I'd go completely insane. Then there's the Politics-Atmosphere, particularly in the first series of the Minor stakes seems like everyone's carrying around a pretty big load of Bigger Dog Syndrome. For me It's just not fun and not the environment I want to spend my very limited free time in, whether my dog would be competitive or not. To each they own.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Like you said, to each their own. I moved into field trials because I'm a naturally competitive guy. When running hunt test I found myself and some of my friends judging our dogs against each other's dogs, all the dogs actually. And though we may not be 100% objective about our own dog work, it irked me that a dog running at the very highest level gets the same ribbon as one that barely meets the standard that day. Then my training buddy bought a new pup and we started training him for derbies where he got on the derby list only running five trials. That hooked him and me, so I bought a field trail breeding myself.

I really enjoy watching good dog work, so sitting around all day doesn't bother me. I especially like it if everybody is going down in flames on a super hard test and my dog smacks it. 

I have heard about politics since the very beginning, but I can honestly say that other than somebody speculating about a strange call back, I can count on one hand the number of times I believed politics were involved.

400 yard marks and blinds don't bother me, much beyond that distance is ridiculous and unnecessary.

I have mucho desire to compete against all comers, the better they are the better I feel whether win or lose.

My wife travels to field trials with me, and with no kids our dogs are our family.

Believe me, you can collect more titles with less effort running hunt test. Running Field Trials can be discouraging if all you want out of it is a title.

By your answers I can see that field trials are not your thing at this point in time.

BTW I take my dogs out of training and hunt the whole season, helps to keep them balanced, plus I need a good dog when I'm hunting.

John


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

There are a million reasons to not run FT's, some of which are valid, depending on your circumstances. Those that want to, will find a way.
I keep my goals & hopes in perspective. I enter 5 or 6 trials a year.
My measure of success is not based on anyone but me.
I compete because I want to gauge my abilities against the best. It motivates me to improve. I want to improve because I'm passionate about dog training.
Ribbons are nice, but they are not my measure of success, in any given year.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

godoggo said:


> It would be nice to see age groups maybe. I was interested but started researching and realize I would never be competitive or near enough trials.


The age groups would be:

Not too old--1 or 2 entrants

Old--most entrants

Real old--a few entrants


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

John Lash said:


> The age groups would be:
> 
> Not too old--1 or 2 entrants
> 
> ...


I started off in the _not too old_ category, but by the time I was competitive I was in the _Old_ category.

John


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

I have dabbled in the derby. I won't run another FT with my current dog for several years, because he won't be ready until then. I don't have the time or the money to train/have him trained in the "correct" time frame. I am super competitive and I won't go to the line again until I am sure I have given my pup sufficient training.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I ran an Amateur stake this year after a 20+ yr hiatus from running a registered/sanctioned trial...it was bittersweet...the training leading up to running the trial was almost the most fun I have ever had, the letdown was bombing out with two dogs in the first series...the bitter part was knowing that I cant afford to run them on a regular basis on my own dime...I was very fortunate to have my brother pick up the tab for the trial itself but I paid my own way for fuel,lodging and meals...

the really bad is that all it did was wet my appetite to train more,travel more and be around the game again...and the sobering part is that, right now with my current job and geographical situation, it is neither prudent nor pragmatic...

I even toyed with the idea of spending a couple of months in Alaska training with Mr McFall,or spending next spring in Pendroy Mt.with ABIII....now if I can just find a source of income, who knows ...

It's addictive, probably more expensive than a drug habit, or being someone's sugar daddy (so I am told)...but it sure is rewarding at the end of the day


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

because the people on here that do run FT scare the heck out of me.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Why I don't run FT:

1. costs too much
3. politics
3. costs too much
4. my dogs are jacks of all trades- search dogs first 
5. costs too much
6. no desire to run in extreme games that FT dogs do. 
7. costs too much

'Bout sums it up for me.

Did I say it costs too much?


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

I am a Field Trialer....Because after winning an All Age Blue....a hunt test ribbon is like kissing your sister.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> Why I don't run FT:
> 
> 1. costs too much
> 3. politics
> ...


And what do you know of *politics* in the sport?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

godoggo said:


> I think that there are people that are professional dog handlers that claim to be amateurs running in field trials. It is not really an amateur stake. .


What is the basis of this claim?


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

I've run HTs off and on since 1993. Have owned, trained, and handled several HRCHs/or MHs, but the most fun I've ever had running dogs was the Qual I ran with my girl Jiggy. We went out in the third, and I felt a few dogs were carried that didn't quite match up to my girl, BUT, I had a blast!!! 
Then while training for her hopeful future in FTs, she blew an ACL. She then followed the TPLO surgery with another injury so she had an early retirement.
"Politics"? Ahhhh-I just told myself to prepare my dog to the best of my ability, attack the setup, and have fun.
If I had the training facilities and training group, I'd be back. I have actually done some training with a few trial folks and really enjoyed it a LOT. Time is my issue. Maybe when I retire from coaching high school football I'll play again. 
For now, it'll be spring HTs.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

godoggo said:


> I think that there are people that are professional dog handlers that claim to be amateurs running in field trials.


That depends on whose definition of amateur you subscribe.

As to the OP: I like to train a dog to a high level so I need to compete at that level to make see if I'm doing it right. It is the training not the trialing for me. Maybe that is also why I have CBRs.
In FTs the highes are fewer but higher, especially when you train them. 

Tim


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

I try and run ft's because I like to see good dog work. I love watching the dogs smack the marks and handle so well on blinds. I train my own dog and my goal is to show up at the trial and know that I can compete. I am working towards that goal, not there yet but I hope to be. The top dogs on each day give me something to work towards.

I also enjoy talking to the other handlers in the gallery. I have a lot of fun every time I run a trial. It does take a lot of time and effort, but I am taking my oldest son with me a bunch and soon both of my boys will be tagging along.

I am also usually one of the few if not the only one with a chessie and that makes it cooler when we do well because nobody may know who we are but they know that a chessie did well.

Russell


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Why does anybody do anything that's difficult? Why do people climb high mountains? The difficulty of it adds to the sweetness of completing the task. I don't know where it came from, but I heard Johnny Miller say the other day that success is not measured by what you accomplish, but by what you overcome. If I can be competitive in field trials with a family, a business, etc., and I can balance it all, then by golly, I've really done something. 

Also, put me in the camp that likes to watch talented, well trained dogs. It would be frustrating for me to train my dog to a certain level and say, "The dog is capable of so much more, but oh, well ..."


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## John Shoffner (Jan 27, 2009)

I have ran my dogs in both field trials and hunt tests and really enjoy competing in the field trials more. I have met a lot of nice like-minded people that appreciate good dog work and strive for excellence. The most successful dog/handler teams put a lot of time and effort into training for and competing at the highest levels. You can not go out and expect to win every weekend but you always learn something and I prefer to compare our performance and progress against the best dog/handler team that weekend rather than against a standard. Constant improvement is what we strive for. 

I do not think politics plays a big role in the sport. While every contestant wants a blue ribbon, there is only one per stake. It is impossible for the gallery to see and observe every dog on every run throughout the trial from the perspective of the 2 judges. From my experience, the trials I have helped put on, ran in, or judged at have all ended up with the best performing dog winning and placements awarded accordingly. The judges go to great lengths to compare performance of each dog series by series based on recollection and detailed notes to determine the winner and placements. I respect the judges honesty, integrity, and willingness to take time off of work or away from other pursuits and dedicate it to judging fairly. Performance on one bird can seperate 1st Place and the rest of the placements. If an observer from the gallery steps away, misses a key piece of a run, or forgets a slip-up, they may not fully understand the reasons for placements and blame the results on "politics." My suggestion is to train hard, do the best job you can do that weekend, and respect the results. If you do not perform as expected, work on whatever issues presented themselves, train harder, and try it again! You will find most participants in field trials to be very dedicated to the sport and a lot of fun to be around all weekend, especially if their dog is performing well!!!


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> John, ever hear of a guy named Tony Marasco? Pittsburgh area.
> 
> He's the guy who first really taught me to cast a flyrod. He had me casting right and left hand equally in my first session...that was around 1979 or so.
> 
> ...


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

..........


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> My reasons for not doing tests; FT or HT:
> 
> 1 - Cliques/politics - I don't like them and have no interest in dealing with them.
> 
> ...


While your reasons are your own and you're entitled to them, your first 2 points aren't in line with reality. The "cliques," politics and social competition in field trials are just as common in hunt tests or among hunters. I would argue that it's less common in field trials because the competition happens in the field rather than the pissing match that occurs in the parking lot/boat ramp with tests or hunting.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't run FT's mainly because it's so expensive . I try to live in reality also and I know I'm not capable to train a dog for that level against a pro. 

I do try to train my dogs everyday to my best ability just to have a good hunting companion.


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

It Is Simple.Put Everything Else Aside!It You Want To Be The Best You Have To Beat The Best , That Is The True Glory Of The Field Trail Game, But Win That Blue Is Handed To You There Is No Greater Feeling!!!
Dave Hare


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

While I have only been running fts for about 5 years and mostly minor stakes, I have yet to see the politics that so many are referring to. I have yet to disagree with the judges choice of winner in all of the trials I have run and as a judge usually did not know which handler went with each dog number when determining callbacks. When judging my co judge and I have always determined placements separately and then compared before determining the final outcome. In EVERY trial to date the two of us have had the same winner and at most only minor differences in the other placements. 

Maybe I'm too new at the game to be aware of the "politics". 

Bill


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

I ran HTs because my old dog Kate liked them-truly. I was the weakest link. She was capable, but I wasn't a good enough trainer and the end of our water blinds in our many failed attempts at Master was her on autopilot. She still did very well for no pedigree and substandard training. She was also a very reliable dog to hunt over.

I love running FTs even though I am still a substandard trainer. I think there is a falacy to the fact that it's competitive and cutthroat. Sure, you are going to come away scratching your head from time to time questioning the call backs, but 99% of the time you know where you let your dog down. I think what people don't realize is that when you are doing well plenty of the folks you are competing against are rooting you on, being complimentary and helping you strategize before you run.

I think I have a dog who, if he belonged to someone else, would be a contender. It is what it is and dogs who I don't think are as naturally talented (there! I said it!), but are on pro trucks and seeing setups every day have a huge advantage and ultimately trump the dog who just doesn't have the advantage of a solid training regimine. Those of us who are true amateurs realize that we are competing against dogs training 24/7 with a pro and then handled by their owner at the trial. No harm. No foul, but it levels the playing field.

I have access to wonderful grounds, have the motivation, but would love a mentor. Regardless, I love running my dog and I'd like to think I'm one of the good guys rooting on every dog I'm entered against and get goosebumps watching them work.

Oh! As for Chris making the comment about hearing placements announced. The biggest thrill I've ever had was running a trial (Q) where my dog had a no bird in every series-including honoring. He ran soooo well and then the last bird in the last series-he took a perfect line and then 2 feet from the bird-damn wind-turned and had a hunt. Announcing planements: JAMs nothing and I thought-ok-in my mind we finished, it's ok. And then he gets 4th. If that's as far as we ever go it's enough for me. That was all about him and I'm so proud of him.

So, for me FTs are about watching dogs that want that bird so badly that they are willing to play by our rules. As long as the dogs are respected in the pursuit of ribbons it's all good!!

M


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think "politics" are what people use to blame their shortcomings on...There has to be something to take the blame.

Same as the old "Yeah, I think my dog probably would have done well at a field trial if I'd ever entered one."


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I've JR titled my first dog that I have played the games with ,hell up till around 2 years ago I didnt know these games existed.I will say that I am planning on running a couple local derbys next spring just because of my competitive nature. I to found myself judging my dog to others at ht's and when she looked good I thought to myself [that dog just barley made it but mine did well and we got the same ribbon].After getting hooked up with a pro who educated me on the sports he said we had a chance to have some fun in derbys [fun to me isnt going hom in the first series ].But for the next couple months we are running water trials... also known as duck hunting.
To each his own and second place will always be the first loser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I cant see that far.


Gooser


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

> My reasons for not doing tests; FT or HT:
> 
> 1 - Cliques/politics - I don't like them and have no interest in dealing with them.


There are cliques and politics in every endeavor involving human beings.

I don't think those in the FT game are any different than you find anywhere else.






> 2 - No interest in competing socially with other dog owners (omg your dog didn't come from so and so and you don't train this way? You suck). High school ended for me several years ago, thanks.


I have never witnessed this. Never.



> 3 - Too expensive. I'm a single girl supporting myself and I have very little extra income besides what I have for the dog and myself. Spending extra money on gas or lodgings to go around to stuff is just not in the budget.


The FT game can certainly get spendy




> 4 - I'm just flat out not interested in them. Yea, it's awesome that your dog can do all that stuff, but I don't have an interest in having Nilla do it - and with her hip dysplasia, it's probably best that I *don't* do it. She's my companion first, and my hunting buddy second.


If your hobby doesn't make you happy, find a new hobby



> 5 - Finally, I'm just NOT a competitive person by nature. I was never into sports as a child, never did any sort of competitions in school because they just weren't my thing. I don't disparage against people whose thing it is, but it's just not in me to be competitive.


If you don't like competition, FT are something to avoid


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

..........


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

..........


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## rolando_cornelio (Jun 28, 2007)

i run to be the best! and to give the pro's a run for there money. i felt just as proud of my self getting a JAM in the open against 6 different pro's than AM win.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

And I'm beginning to feel that if I'm not interested in either of them, I have no business being here. Is that a correct assumption?[/QUOTE]

If you have an interest in training your dog or an interest in futher training your dog for ht's,ft's,hunting ,or any other venue even if you just wana learn how to make a dog sit than this forum is a great resource and you have business here.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I might be wrong on this but it seems that most, if not all the comments about politics in field trials are coming from folks who have never run a field trial. There are lots of good reasons for not getting involved with the FT game without drinking the _FTs are all about politics _Koolade.


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

..........


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

I have the privilege of training on occasion with some avid trialers. Each and every time I learn something new, sometimes useful to me, sometimes not. I am always amazed at the degree of training these dogs are capable of absorbing and the dedication of the trainers.

I judge Ht's. Each and every time I do, I learn something new. I especially like seeing the synergy between handler and dog develop through the levels.

I run Ht's and have never tired of going to the line with my dogs, nor of hearing my dog's name called in the evening.

For me nothing comes closer to Nirvana than the pleasure I take watching my dogs find, flush and retrieve a pheasant or watching my dog's head come around on scent after a particulary challenging blind chasing a big mallard shot in a flurry in the snow.

Personally I do not run trials. I abhor competition in hunting. Fishing tournaments, obsession with chasing big antlers to place in a book, shoot to retrieve trials are personally offensive to me. To me, trials tread too close for me to be 100% comfortable with the concept.

Add to this, there is a certain contingent of the field trial world that chose to place themselves and their dogs above everyone else. It is tiresome, and completely unneccesary. Winning or competeting in a field trial does not automatically make that dog and handler better than other retrievers and their handlers. I know from experience this group is a minority - but it's a noisy minority and they don't get contradicted enough by the mainstream FT crowd to negate the effect, particularly to newbies.

I like to train FT concepts as it adds to my dog's repertoire come fall, but not to the exclusion of more pragmatic skills.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I might be wrong on this but it seems that most, if not all the comments about politics in field trials are coming from folks who have never run a field trial. There are lots of good reasons for not getting involved with the FT game without drinking the _FTs are all about politics _Koolade.


Isn't that something??? How can those with the least actual experience have such strong, negative, misguided perceptions?? 

JS


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

The choice to run or not run field trials, is similar to choices in a lot of other sports. If you are, or become obsessed with something, you will find a way to compete at the top level of that sport. There are examples of obsessed individuals at all income levels who are successful. Of course to be successful and competitive, other endeavors and relationships in your life will suffer. It’s your choice. Many would say that it’s easier to complete in FTs if you’re wealthy; well big deal, almost everything else as also easier if your wealthy. And know also that there are a lot of wealthy competitive amateurs who don’t do a whole lot of other things on weekends except FTs, and don’t associate with a lot of other friends except those in the FT game, because that is there choice. These millionaire amateurs I’m sure could find other activities to keep themselves busy, things that less obsessed/normal people do, but they’ve gone to the dogs. The biggest sacrifice you have to make isn’t the $’s, it’s your time and giving up a lot of other things. Only you can decide if it’s worth it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> Just because you haven't witnessed it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist where you aren't. I've been subject to it in any 'specialized' or certain groups, most notably when I was involved with horses growing up and recently with photography and with the dog. It happens everywhere, and some places you cannot avoid it. Other places, like with the dogs, you can avoid it. It's one of the reasons I have no interest in competitions, it's not the ONLY reason. I've witnessed it on these forums and I've witnessed it on other forums (forums that I have left. Was actually informed on one that b/c my dad's dog wasn't trained to a crapload of anacronyms or had any titles, she therefore wasn't trained at all, even though like me he has no interest in competitions).
> 
> Trialing is not my hobby, therefore I don't need to find a new one. Having a dog is not my hobby either - she's my companion and my hunting buddy. That's all I wanted her for, that's all I'm interested in. The thread was asking why amateurs (such as myself) are not interested in FTs or HTs and those were my reasons. They're not everyone's reasons, but they're mine. And I'm beginning to feel that if I'm not interested in either of them, I have no business being here. Is that a correct assumption?


I think your opinions are mis-informed. I don't think anyone who doesn't want to participate in a given activity should have to do so. Nor do I think people should make negative statements about an activity about which they know little to nothing.

There are louts who will be critical to others in all manner of activities.

That does not mean that the rest of a given group share those offensive characteristics 

But, clearly, FT are not for you


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I might be wrong on this but it seems that most, if not all the comments about politics in field trials are coming from folks who have never run a field trial. There are lots of good reasons for not getting involved with the FT game without drinking the _FTs are all about politics _Koolade.


I think it is the nature of the internet. Everyone is an expert, regardless of his/her qualifications.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

minnducker said:


> The choice to run or not run field trials, is similar to choices in a lot of other sports. If you are, or become obsessed with something, you will find a way to compete at the top level of that sport. There are examples of obsessed individuals at all income levels who are successful. Of course to be successful and competitive, other endeavors and relationships in your life will suffer. It’s your choice. Many would say that it’s easier to complete in FTs if you’re wealthy; well big deal, almost everything else as also easier if your wealthy. And know also that there are a lot of wealthy competitive amateurs who don’t do a whole lot of other things on weekends except FTs, and don’t associate with a lot of other friends except those in the FT game, because that is there choice. These millionaire amateurs I’m sure could find other activities to keep themselves busy, things that less obsessed/normal people do, but they’ve gone to the dogs. The biggest sacrifice you have to make isn’t the $’s, it’s your time and giving up a lot of other things. Only you can decide if it’s worth it.


Mr. Nail meet Mr. Hammer


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

minnducker said:


> The biggest sacrifice you have to make isn’t the $’s, it’s your time and giving up a lot of other things. Only you can decide if it’s worth it.


I can attest to this personally


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I know that it would have been a lot easier to stay involved with FTs over the years with a little more of the conventional type of high end "success"...........

john


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I might be wrong on this but it seems that most, if not all the comments about politics in field trials are coming from folks who have never run a field trial. There are lots of good reasons for not getting involved with the FT game without drinking the _FTs are all about politics _Koolade.


Only been doing this for 5 years but have seen very little of that and have been quiet involved. I have met alot of people that I consider good friends now I would have never known if I hadn't gotten involved. Iv'e run Both HT and FT and prefer FT getting a pass never felt the same as " finishing " a trial let alone placing in one. Not saying I don't like HT or don't want to run them because I do and will, I personally just like the competitive aspect of FT.

Iv'e also had the opportunity to judge a few minors with a couple of very experienced good guys and completly enjoyed it, you learn alot sitting in the chair.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

dixidawg said:


> I don't have the time to train my dogs to actually be COMPETITIVE.
> 
> I have no desire to send the dog to a pro. I want to do the training myself, perhaps working with a pro. Until I have the time to get to a level where I believe I could actually compete, I won't be attending any FT's.


This is why it will probably take me a while to run in an FT. Right now, I just don't have the time to train as much as I want to be training and need to be training to be ready for an FT. I want to train my own dog. He is my dog, and I want to take him as far as we can go. 

I am a competitive person. I want to run in FTs, but I also don't want to run before we are ready. I wish there were a derby category for dogs over 2. It's going to take me and Riot a while longer to get to that level than others. It would be nice to have this to run in while working on getting the handling down.

The competition doesn't scare me. Bring it on! It will make winning, or losing, all that much better


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

And as you wheez your last breath you may have conditioned yourself to think "I'd rather not participate".


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

..........


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I am in college right now and money is a huge factor, another is experience. I want to run a couple dogs through MH at hunt tests and become more comfortable on the line handling a dog before I go and spend 90+ dollars on a FT and screw her up on a retrieve because I didnt line her up right, or because i gave her too sharp of a cast on a blind and plus my heart races every time I go on line which I have a feeling messes with the dog a bit, which inturn messes with me more- so mostly experience and money - waiting till I graduate from college


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## Steve Hamel (Mar 1, 2004)

After 15 years of Hunt Tests I ran my first 2 derbies with my young dog this past September. What i witnessed: Good judges with very reasonable set ups. More then a few people wishing you good luck as you walked toward the running line, including a big name pro. Very generous callbacks, and straightforward placements.

Expensive and time consuming, absolutely. For everyone, absolutely not. But hey, that's the greatness that is the USA. Choose your poison and enjoy your hobbies.

I do know this. The more you hang around with handlers/trainers better then yourself, eventually some of it starts to wear off on you.

Happy Thanksgiving

Steve


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> And what do you know of *politics* in the sport?


Because there are humans involved. 

It's a fact of life. 

I deal with it enough in the search world, why would I want to pay alot of money to deal with it in FT?


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Why don't I run FT???????????????????

*Time*- I have 3 children, 2 jobs, a wife, president of our retriever club, coach Ty's baseball team, and Ty's soccer team. Someday when the time is right I will be running FT's. 

I am VERY competitive by nature. I love the dog work. I refuse to use a pro because for me its the challenge of training and figuring out what works for the individual dog. I have the access to property and water. Other than the winter months I will be ready when the TIME allows. But for now I'm training my HT dogs and working on my skills as a trainer.

Joe


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## Red Barn Retrievers (May 18, 2011)

No white coat for me, thanks. I ran Pointers in field trials for 11 years, sold my horses. I went to walking shoot and retrieve, I found the same problems and some new ones. I started HT in the beginning. I had a good time but, I had some problems with clubs and bad birds. All dog sports have man made problems. Politics is a biggie, I have never had a argument with a hunting buddy. I do like the way things are done in England. I want my dogs to work because of passion and breeding not pressure to do the work. The point being what ever dog sport you choose, it should be fun for dog and handler. If not as Rickey Nelson said, in a song, Garden party, I would rather drive a truck. Always be a good sportsperson (Honor) and the reason for any dog sport is to enjoy the dog ability. Give me Camo or Orange any day.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> For what it's worth, if I had to pick an absolute #1 reason why I don't participate in either hunt tests or field trials, it would simply be because I have almost total disinterest in it. It doesn't spark anything inside me to make me say "hey, I'd like to give that a try." Liken it, if you will, to someone's absolute disinterest in, say, skydiving. Even if it was 100% totally safe (theoretically, here), and they still had a lack of interest, that's just how it is.
> 
> I understand that arguing on the internet is a lot like talking to a brick wall. The thread asked for our opinions, those are mine. I apologize if you don't agree with them; I'm not asking you to.


If you don't want to do it, don't. Contrary to what you may believe, I have no interest in conversion.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> Because there are humans involved.
> 
> It's a fact of life.
> 
> I deal with it enough in the search world, why would I want to pay alot of money to deal with it in FT?


If you are willing to deal with it in the search world, then something other than politics is keeping you from FT.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't run FT's because I am not a good enough trainer to get my dog to that level.
I think we could learn, but in my experience, in order to be at the top a commitment is required that I am not willing to make at this point.

I do believe I have enough dog based on the FT's I have worked.
We are planning on running a QAA this summer.

I am not afraid to lose.
But I do want to compete and at least look like I know what I am doing.
I am just not confident in our ability to play a game we do not know well.

I look for FT people to train with, but they are kinda set in thier ways and pretty much want to impose what they do on all around them.
They are not usually (around here anyways) looking for people like me to train with them.

Just my observation, hats off to those of you who step to the line at that level!!!


To me it is sort of like collegiate athletics, FT's being D-1.

stan b


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I started out in FT before there were HT, I tried HT myself, and I prefer FT because I never get tired of watching the excellence of these awesome animals. There is politics in HT also; you bet there is especially if you judge. When you win, there is _almost_ nothing else that feels that good, whether you are the one who handled or your pro did, and that buzz feeds the addiction. When I was raising a family I put FT aside because I felt I had a higher committment at that time. FT have ended many marriages so make sure your partner is on board with all the time you need to spend training and competing. There is the matter that you have to find a really good dog to compete in FT, and you really need to know how to train, and need to find a really good amateur group, or you need to use a pro to get the set-ups. It just isn't going to happen too often because you have the desire to train your dog yourself without access to land and the knowledge to set up challenging tests in training. The sour grapes have always been around.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Robert said:


> I read about this all the time on RTF but has there ever been a post asking the amateurs what they think about Field Trials?
> 
> My 2-cents as an amateur who has ran HT’s for darn near 10-years now and worked more FT’s than I can count is it doesn’t look like much fun.
> 
> ...


That pretty sums up my perspective as well. However, I do enjoy HT's and I do run my dogs out to 300 yard blinds because occasionaly that's what's needed in the real world.


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

I've never ran a trial (only HT's) but look forward to the day when I do get the chance to run .hopefully in 2012. In the vast majority of the posts above by people who use a reason for not entering a trial as it being political, can anyone provide me with an example? And please do not cite an example that you heard...but one that you physically witnessed. I'm not a betting man, but if I had to, I'd bet that the majority who say trials are political can not cite that instance and will use "well I read that this happened at a trial last year...". Now I understand that everything we read on the internet is true so there's some validity in that type of rational.....<insert tongue into cheek>...but I'd like to hear examples of what people perceive to be factual because they SAW it happen. Now I've only worked trials, so I'm not saying politics do not play a role at some level, but for as often as people are using that as a reason to not run, I'm sure people must have factual examples....right????

The biggest hurdle that I've encountered when trying to make the transition from tests to trials is simply time. And what goes hand in hand with time is $$. You can set up a nice triple using some very margainal land/water simply because of the 100 limit on distance (or thereabouts). But to train for a trial, it becomes so much more difficult to find property that is conducive to what a judge will ask of you come the weekend. So suddenly your driving further which is naturally taking up more time and $$. 

Another hurdle is the need for a knowledgable training group. The group itself can be full of newbies, but you need that one person who knows what he/she is doing and can help with the setups and discussing what each mark provides for training etc... But what I have found is that everyone deals with the same issues ie) windshield time to get to good property, so the groups I've seen are very dedicated groups and once you can get established into one, unless you become a complete slug and stop giving and turn to only getting....you've found a group for a long time.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

hotel4dogs said:


> because the people on here that do run FT scare the heck out of me.


Do I scare you?


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I originally got into HT in the mid nineties with my previous two dogs. Got into FT two years ago with my current dog. I originally got into the games to have a better gun dog...ie, a set standard that I had to train to, which carried over into the field and having a better gun dog.

The jump to FT came because I became retired at the time I got my newest pup and although I bought the pup for hunting, I did buy from a long line of competition dogs. She became one of those "fire-breathers" and hence 1) I HAD to train a lot just so I could live with the dog and 2) she seemed like she had the stuff to be competitive.

I was real worried when I attended my first derby (I had never even seen a FT before attending my first one last year). I was worried because of all the stuff that I have read in the previous posts about politics, etc. I came away really enjoying the experience, met a bunch of really nice people...especially when they found out it was my first trial and went out of their way to offer suggestions and advice. I also found out that even though I didn't think I was competitive, I found out that I am. I am really not competitive against the other people running, but against myself and the training standards/goals I have set. At a trial I get to see if I really taught the dog angle water entries, holding a line with wind, cover or slope, etc. Lastly, I have a GREAT gun dog which was my original goal in the purchase of the puppy. I have even racked up a fair number of ribbons at FT derbies and quals, but am still looking for that one that is colored different than green. I guess I am a FT newbie, but am in for the long haul.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> If you are willing to deal with it in the search world, then something other than politics is keeping you from FT.


Did you read my original list? 

Politics, or as it should be properly called, the politics of cliques (a la "Mean Girls"), is just one of many reasons I don't run FT.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Once I realized just how truly good these dogs could be, and what they are capable of, I lost all interest in Hunt Tests. We train diligently, often, and to the highest standard possible. We compete relatively little. We hunt nearly every day. I love Field Trial training, love the dogs, I like most of the people involved, love the places its taken me and the adventures we have had, best "hobby" ever!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Do I scare you?


Boooo!!!!!! ;-)


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## schb02 (Feb 21, 2010)

At this point in time I have mixed feeling about field trials. Some days I hate them and some days I like them. They can be flustrating and humbling. I ran a handlfull of Quals with my female and just ran them for fun. I had a great time and learned allot about how not to handle. This year I ran Derbys with my male and wish I never did. I learned allot about handling him but I did not have any fun doing it. I think the reason I did not have any fun running the Derbys is that I thought I had a chance of placing and I did not even get passed the second series. The walk back to the truck was long. The last trial I ran I had to walk out and get him before I did the "walk of shame" back to the truck. Running field trials did make me a better handler but I think I preferr to run hunt test. I think I will even give the HRC trials a go. I think many people that have a bitter taste for field trials have that bitter taste out of flustration (like me). Making it to the last series is not going to happen allot and having a year of that can get to a person. You have to learn to take failer and have that fuel your next attempt at a ribbon. I have learned to do that in the hunt test world but not the field trial world. Not sure why...


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

A friend of ours came to watch a field trial. He knew nothing about hunting tests or any sort of competition, but was an avid hunter. After a couple of series he said, "the highs must be really high 'cause there sure are a lot of lows".

When you've been running all weekend, and you go out on the last bird it's a long, heartache drive home. However, when you've run a good trial with nice marks and nice blinds, and you go into the last series and keep on doing well and work as a team, and you are rewarded with a ribbon (hopefully that blue ribbon or a color), it makes all the long training days so worth it.

Someone mentioned "mean girls" attitude at trials. IMO the people at trials are like people everywhere. There are good, well-meaning people and there are grumpy people.


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## Richard Chavez (Dec 10, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I did not run Field Trials for a long time. I remember at a NAHRA test in Lake Champlain telling Paul Stuart, who then translated to Daniel Desgagne in French: "I'm not a Field Trialer and I never will be one".
> 
> You may find that you get a dog who seems special. You may find that your training abilities, or just the way you click with a special dog, makes you wonder "what if".
> 
> ...


 Agree totally with Chris. You never know.

Never thought I'd even train for FT, but now see that the dogs are fully capable of anything I put before them. Sooooooooo... here I go at least training for FT and whether I ever get Slash or FloJo or Sue to an AFC at least I know that I gave it my best. We'll see what happens in the next 2 years.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

Buzz said:


> Boooo!!!!!! ;-)


Barb,
I have to say,"That's Funny right there!" LMAO

Let's get together and train soon or go hunting.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

New people see the success of established trialers, then suffer the agony of defeat. They don't see all of the failures that have happened for FT'ers, and continue to happen. Most successful amateurs have become good at dusting themselves off.
What keeps newer people in the game is success.
Green ribbons are important in every stake.
It doesn't cost alot of money to train to the top.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

The FT is actually pretty much like anything in life. You get out of it what you put in. The only thing that may change things is that if you have a dog that does not have "it" it does not matter how much time and $ thrown at it you will not have success. For those that want to get into the clique come by and see me and I will hook you up with the cool people and throw some birds. We will even give you a sandwhich.......


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

If you have to explain to someone why YOU run FTs, they probably wont understand.

1st series of the SRC derby this Fall... Memory bird comes out at about 300 yards at 12 o'clock then the go bird flier behind some brush at 2 o'clock and 75 yards. Send the dog, picks up the flier after a smallish hunt. He comes in and lines himself up for the memory bird....sent him, he fights the cover, wind and steep side of a hill...after about 200 yards of the way there the judges STAND UP out of their chairs and say, "holy sh!t look at him go". He runs up there and pins that bird. There is NOOOO HT ribbon that can equal that 1 series in a FT minor stake.

I taught that dog to do that. I spent the time, I spent the money....still gives me chills.

Again if you have to explain it to someone, they wouldn't understand.

For what its worth, last Sunday we shot a group of gadwalls right at sun up, one of them flew away and died out in the lake about 200 yards out. When we had the rest of our limit I decided to run that bird as a blind verses going to get it in the boat, by that time it had drifted to the side of the cove so was basically a down the shore 250 yard blind. I kept him in the water all the way to the bird....when he picked the bird up the guys on the other side of the hunting area started cheering....damn I love good dog work.


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

Strange thread IMO.
Doing anything with your dogs, be it, ob , agility, tracking, testing/trialing and some of us even enjoy hunting with them, well you are way ahead of what most dog owners do. Just because something is not for you, doesn't mean it is not just the thing for others, do what gives you something to be passionate about,
and thank goodness for that.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> There are good, well-meaning people and there are grumpy people.


and sometimes the good, well-meaning people can be grumpy too...


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I run FTs because I don't know any better!


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## schb02 (Feb 21, 2010)

Scott Adams said:


> New people see the success of established trialers, then suffer the agony of defeat. They don't see all of the failures that have happened for FT'ers, and continue to happen. Most successful amateurs have become good at dusting themselves off.
> What keeps newer people in the game is success.
> Green ribbons are important in every stake.
> It doesn't cost alot of money to train to the top.


I feel if you get any type of ribbon in a field trial you did good. There are several people I have congradulated them on there JAM and got a look that could kill. After that I have never spoke to anyone that got a JAM.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

EdA said:


> and sometimes the good, well-meaning people can be grumpy too...


Nothing a glass of wine can't cure!


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

savage25xtreme said:


> If you have to explain to someone why YOU run FTs, they probably wont understand.
> 
> 1st series of the SRC derby this Fall... Memory bird comes out at about 300 yards at 12 o'clock then the go bird flier behind some brush at 2 o'clock and 75 yards. Send the dog, picks up the flier after a smallish hunt. He comes in and lines himself up for the memory bird....sent him, he fights the cover, wind and steep side of a hill...after about 200 yards of the way there the judges STAND UP out of their chairs and say, "holy sh!t look at him go". He runs up there and pins that bird. There is NOOOO HT ribbon that can equal that 1 series in a FT minor stake.
> 
> ...


Exactly right. There is NO bigger high.Gives me chills reading it!!!


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

The way I look at it is, it is no different than playing golf, tennis, bowling, running races, cycling, etc....... ITS A HOBBY, hobbies cost money and its your choice which hobby you enjoy. I competed in golf as an amatuer for many years (not always successfull) but the thrill I would feel during the week and when you step on that first tee is big time fun for me. Winning is fun dont get me wrong but so is everything leading up to that. Training with friends, trialing with friends and making new friends that have the same passion for dogs and training that you do is worth the cost of admission.

And all this talk of politics, people being rude and unapproachable is just an excuse for not wanting to take a chance. Is it hard, hell yea its hard, but I would rather pick my dog up in the field on Friday and go home and work on the issues, than sit at a test all weekend and watch mediocre dog work while your dog does perfect and gets the same orange ribbon and same title. Thats just the way I feel.

As far as not being welcoming, the same can be said anywhere I am sorry but if I am at a trial I am either running a dog, working, or both, normally don't have time to go around and make sure everyone is having a good time. Be polite and introduce yourself and I am sure you will be welcomed.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

rboudet said:


> The way I look at it is, it is no different than playing golf, tennis, bowling, running races, cycling, etc....... ITS A HOBBY, hobbies cost money and its your choice which hobby you enjoy. I competed in golf as an amatuer for many years (not always successfull) but the thrill I would feel during the week and when you step on that first tee is big time fun for me. Winning is fun dont get me wrong but so is everything leading up to that. Training with friends, trialing with friends and making new friends that have the same passion for dogs and training that you do is worth the cost of admission.
> 
> And all this talk of politics, people being rude and unapproachable is just an excuse for not wanting to take a chance. Is it hard, hell yea its hard, but I would rather pick my dog up in the field on Friday and go home and work on the issues, than sit at a test all weekend and watch mediocre dog work while your dog does perfect and gets the same orange ribbon and same title. Thats just the way I feel.
> 
> As far as not being welcoming, the same can be said anywhere I am sorry but if I am at a trial I am either running a dog, working, or both, normally don't have time to go around and make sure everyone is having a good time. Be polite and introduce yourself and I am sure you will be welcomed.


About the mediocre dog work!! Do you say that to children b/c they don't get high marks in school or aren't challenging situations. Some dogs can only aspire to be what they are. And some owners only want to play that game.It is not fair to call that mediocre. They share the same enthusiasm that you share in FT. You may be only medicre in field and some are viewing you the same way you are viewing those medicre test people. IMHO


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

As most of you know, I am just starting out with my first retriever, let alone the retriever games, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt.

I have been to both field trials and one hunt test. Let me tell you about the different experiences.

In the field trials I have been to, I have yet to have anyone that I didn't already know say a word to me, shake my hand, or be welcoming in any way. My wife and I actually sat under the tent at a fairly recent trial with a trainer from my area (who also never returned my phone calls about training my dog), two judges (who I will pretty much give a pass since they were judging), and 2-3 other folks, and not one word was said to either of us. I have yet to meet anybody at a field trial that I didn't introduce myself.

Contrast that to the hunt test I recently attended, where the people were much friendlier and welcoming. I met several folks - they didn't seem to mind introducing themselves at all - and I even ended up manning the flyer station for a while. It was a much more welcoming atmosphere all the way around.

Some of you will undoubtedly argue with me that all FT folks are not like that, so let me go ahead and tell you that you are right and I know it. However, my perception is my reality, and there is no question right now in my mind that the FT people are just not very welcoming as a general rule. I get the feeling that a lot of the FT folks just don't want anybody else messing around in their nest. And I am sure I am not alone.

Instead of arguing with me that FT people aren't really like that or that I misread the situation, etc., all of which are absolutely possibile, maybe the FT folks need to think about what they are doing that gives off the impression that I received, and particularly if that is not the impression they want to give off or that they think they are giving off. Just food for thought, so take it for what it's worth, which may be very little.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> About the mediocre dog work!! Do you say that to children b/c they don't get high marks in school or aren't challenging situations. Some dogs can only aspire to be what they are. And some owners only want to play that game.It is not fair to call that mediocre. They share the same enthusiasm that you share in FT. You may be only medicre in field and some are viewing you the same way you are viewing those medicre test people. IMHO



It is what it is.... except in FT you don't get acknowledged for mediocre work...

Not everyone makes the starting line up in their highschool football team either.....


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mary Lynn, I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out that there is a lot of mediocre work on display in Hunt Test. By definition, the dog only needs meet the minimum standard to receive a pass. It does NOT mean that all the dog/handler teams are mediocre! You set your own standard and strive for it.

On the other hand I have never been as thrilled at a hunt test when we actually passed as I was at a field trial where I never even got to the 4th series! Sort of like Savage guy, Gavin B., the thrill left me breathless. 

If interested, this is a piece from my blog about that trial. THIS is why.

http://newhoperetrievers.com/_trainingBlog/2011/09/17/still-crazy-after-all-these-years/


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## Scott Bass (Apr 28, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> As most of you know, I am just starting out with my first retriever, let alone the retriever games, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt.
> 
> I have been to both field trials and one hunt test. Let me tell you about the different experiences.
> 
> ...



*Just food for thought*, but maybe because they needed help manning the flyer station is why they talked to you in the first place.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> As most of you know, I am just starting out with my first retriever, let alone the retriever games, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt.
> 
> I have been to both field trials and one hunt test. Let me tell you about the different experiences.
> 
> ...


I'm not a FTer in the true sense of the word and when the dog I have passes, I have no idea if I'll even get another retriever, so you aren't getting a response from someone who has the best perspective, but...

...I know a lot of people who are just wonderful at the tailgate or when you are working a station with them, etc., but when running a trial they have a different mindset and rightfully so. They are trying to develop a strategy and watch the dog work. They came to give their dog every advantage and I'm sure have absolutely no idea that you are hoping to socialize and feeling slighted.

M


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

Miriam Wade said:


> ...I know a lot of people who are just wonderful at the tailgate or when you are working a station with them, etc., but when running a trial they have a different mindset and rightfully so. They are trying to develop a strategy and watch the dog work. They came to give their dog every advantage and I'm sure have absolutely no idea that you are hoping to socialize and feeling slighted.
> 
> M


I think that's an excellent point and one that people need to remember when trying to determine how friendly an event is. I know of several people even at HT's that really do not want to be bothered as they are there for the sole purpose of passing. After the test is done, then they'll treat you like a long lost relative, but not until then.

Clubs I believe need to keep this in mind as well. Often times clubs aren't in a position to assign a "greeter" due to manpower issues, but I was a member of a club back in Minnesota where often times our club President would simply walk around to all the stakes in an attempt to find anyone that looked "new" and introduce himself to them and give them a welcome. In the end it's a pretty small gesture that my seem insignificant to some, but to that newbie, it can mean the difference between coming back or deciding to take up hop scotch!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

2tall said:


> Mary Lynn, I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out that there is a lot of mediocre work on display in Hunt Test. By definition, the dog only needs meet the minimum standard to receive a pass. It does NOT mean that all the dog/handler teams are mediocre! You set your own standard and strive for it.
> 
> On the other hand I have never been as thrilled at a hunt test when we actually passed as I was at a field trial where I never even got to the 4th series! Sort of like Savage guy, Gavin B., the thrill left me breathless.
> 
> ...


No Carol and I imagine that is quite a thrill. I am just pointing out that some may find what you are referring to as mediocre- to them it is a thrill!just getting a ribbon or the pass!


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

All I'll say is getting a big ovation by the gallery in my pup's last Derby (the only Golden in the final series) and having a veteran amateur trainer who has some really nice dogs and has run countless trials come to me and say "That was a nice job," meant more to me than any hunting test ribbon ever could. That truly knowledgeable retriever handlers and owners were so gracious in recognizing the effort that my dog put forth as well as the effort it takes to get to the point of hammering marks in the fourth series was a feeling I won't forget. Heck, at the last trial where I worked, folks gave a big ovation to the _test dog_ who nailed the test.

Before I got into trials just about a year ago, I had heard about how mean and cutthroat trials and the people who ran them were. To my pleasant surprise, my experience has been that despite the competitive nature of trials, the folks have often been friendlier than those I've been around at hunting tests. My wife said the same thing. I think much of it is based in the fact that at trials, the vast majority of dogs are really good and the handlers know what they're doing or they wouldn't be there. Most I've met were more than willing to discuss things they did that helped their dogs do (fill in the blank) really well if asked. Most were also very realistic about where their dogs stood. In my opinion, many hunting test handlers are less objective in that respect. 

Yes, politics exist in field trials but I don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it sound and I used to be one of the people saying it. A good friend of mine has competed, won, and judged at all levels. That person has told me of a number of incidents in which a dog she ran got hosed or a co-judge insisted on placing a dog just because his pro ran the dog. However, whether it's egos, politics, too many pros or whatever, those things exist in field trials and hunting tests. You either accept that stuff and just enjoy training and handling your dog or make yourself miserable by thinking someone always has it in for you.

The one change I wish the AKC would make is instituting a title program similar to what the Canadian Kennel Club does now for their minor stakes. It's absolutely absurd that a dog can get a Junior Hunter title for picking up four singles yet a dog that can do incomparably more complex work in Qualifying can't get some official designation on a pedigree to prove his merit.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> About the mediocre dog work!! Do you say that to children b/c they don't get high marks in school or aren't challenging situations. ...


Actually we do say this to children b/c they don't get high marks in school.

A = Excellent
B = Above Average
C = Average (mediocre)
D = Fair
F = Fail

Or at least we did when I was in school.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Scott Bass said:


> *Just food for thought*, but maybe because they needed help manning the flyer station is why they talked to you in the first place.


LOL. Quite likely true.

I think that FT folks get a bad rap for not being friendly. I have found the exact opposite in my relatively short time running field trials. I think the fact that it is a much smaller community than HTs so everyone knows everyone else pretty well makes it appear unfriendly to newcomers, but once you get to know the folks most are great. My wife, who is pretty new to both, thinks the folks at FTs are much nicer. She also enjoys watching FTs more because you care what the other dogs do more than at HTs.

We still run a few HTs but I much prefer FTs. Even though we are going to go home early in every FT we run, we do so and try to train and come back and do better next time. The first time we picked them all up in the first series of an AA test, you would have thought I had won it. If we ever get a greenie, who knows what I would do?


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## Labs a mundo (Mar 20, 2009)

The reasons why I run F/T's is beacause I love training and I love the adrenalin rush when my dog has success.
I enjoy seeing the thrill for my fellow competitors when they have their day in the sun. 
I'm thankful for the many friendships that have become meaningful to me because of my participation in the sport.
An earlier poster from BC mentioned an atmosphere of cliquiness. I've run trials put on by every club in BC and the only feeling I've ever got is a thankfulness for travelling, entering, and occasionally judging.
The numbers in the game may be declining but the dedication from those remaining feels strong.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

J. Walker said:


> Yes, politics exist in field trials but I don't think it's nearly as bad as people make it sound and I used to be one of the people saying it. A good friend of mine has competed, won, and judged at all levels. That person has told me of a number of incidents in which a dog she ran got hosed or a co-judge insisted on placing a dog just because his pro ran the dog. However, whether it's egos, politics, too many pros or whatever, those things exist in field trials and hunting tests. You either accept that stuff and just enjoy training and handling your dog or make yourself miserable by thinking someone always has it in for you.



well done J Walker ...there is at least two other neutralizers for the perceived "politics" of field trialing....

1. great dog work- once you start placing dogs or even win a trial its amazing how it changes peoples perspective ,

2. get involved in the hierarchy of the FT club, with the RARE exception where a club is controlled by a single faction(s),being in the framework of decision makers of the club

there is a third but its not readily available to just anyone because it usually takes one of the above things to happen

and that is to judge a FT, my SIL got tired of hearing my brother complain about how he perceived trial set ups,judging and the game itself..so she issued him a challenge..." start accepting the judging assignments, or get out of the game.."

He actually judged more trials this year than he ran, heck I ran as many trials as he did.. He judged two opens and turned down at least two other assignments,we think its one of the better decisions he has made...will it change things, too early to tell, but it has improved his attitude and given him a chance to meet and also re aquaint himself with people he hasnt seen in years


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

I am not what I would call a competitive person. I don't try to win the training session, I don't need the fanciest house, the new truck , etc etc but on a trial weekend do I want my dog to be the best dog that weekend, you're damn right I do!!

I make a lot of sacrifices so that I am able to trial and have a dog pro trained. To me the sacrifices are SO worth it. I used to do HTs but have not in years. I never got the thrill from a HT that I do from a FT.

Trials might not be for everbody, but it is my game of choice!

Andy


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Actually we do say this to children b/c they don't get high marks in school.
> 
> A = Excellent
> B = Above Average
> ...


Yes they did when I was in school many years ago. I don't think they would say that today!!!I guess my point is that no matter what you are interested in and keen on running the dog in- your selection and enthusiam is different than the next person. One person can't get too excited about field and the next person is very excited about field. It is all a matter of what you want to do! But not necessarily mediocre!


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

I love FT's because of the excitement, competition and absolute exhilaration. Being successful is fleeting but when it happens it is the best drug you can take. I have great friends I train with and the pro that helps me has a wonderful eye for tweaking training methods for individual dogs as needed. I don't have my dog with a pro but when we do train together I can't think of any other thing I'd rather be doing. I've been told there are two kinds of people around this game: The ones you can't talk into it and the ones you can't talk out of it. I resemble the latter. :razz:


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> I have no competitive drive. No desire to be better than someone else (or myself at any given time), to win a ribbon, to have a champion, etc. That's not me, that's not what I'm about.




I almost feel sorry for your dog and your employer, I'm an electrician, not exactly a competitive occupation but myself and my co workers had better have the desire to be better than our competition, some of this dog stuff like wanting and training hard to have " the best" dog goes hand in hand with being successfull on a day to day basis as well.


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## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> I almost feel sorry for your dog and your employer, I'm an electrician, not exactly a competitive occupation but myself and my co workers had better have the desire to be better than our competition, some of this dog stuff like wanting and training hard to have " the best" dog goes hand in hand with being successfull on a day to day basis as well.


Wow, that's a harsh statement, I hope you wrote it in haste ! You try to be the best person you can be, not necessarily better than anybody else. I went through a very competitive educational process and have been in an even more competitive professional world for the last 20 years. I do quite well when being evaluated against other people, but I choose not to be competitive in personal endeavors because I get weary of being under judgement all of the time. I know that if I started being competitive in the recreational aspects of my life, it would not be healthy for me, my family and dog. It's just a question of balance.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> I almost feel sorry for your dog and your employer, I'm an electrician, not exactly a competitive occupation but myself and my co workers had better have the desire to be better than our competition, some of this dog stuff like wanting and training hard to have " the best" dog goes hand in hand with being successfull on a day to day basis as well.


Todd, I think that is a bit harsh. A person can decide to train their dog, but either not train the dog to the Nth degree or compete with a dog that is trained to the Nth degree.

If people are having fun with their dogs and their dogs are not bad citizens, it's all good as far as I am concerned


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> I almost feel sorry for your dog and your employer, I'm an electrician, not exactly a competitive occupation but myself and my co workers had better have the desire to be better than our competition, some of this dog stuff like wanting and training hard to have " the best" dog goes hand in hand with being successfull on a day to day basis as well.


Now wait a minute. Just because someone isn't competitive doesn't mean they don't want to do a good job or that they don't enjoy making something better.

I don't train to impress anyone I just train to make him better and to meet the standard. That doesn't mean I don't do a good job at work or that I don't try to have a well trained dog.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

I wasn't trying to be harsh it just amazes me that someone can have absolutly no competitive desire to better themselves and at the same time being critical of others that do.


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Desire to better oneself has nothing to do with competition.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Does anyone really think that folks that run hunt tests are not competative? I think they are. Just like anyone that plays golf is competative. Maybe they aren't trying to play on the pro tour but they aint stamp collecting either. Oh, and they are trying to be the best HT team at the test.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

dixidawg said:


> Desire to better oneself has nothing to do with competition.


It does if your a competitive person


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

Todd , come on !
You were maybe a touch out of line.

We ain't all cut from the same cloth and I thank goodness for that.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Does anyone really think that folks that run hunt tests are not competative? I think they are. Just like anyone that plays golf is competative. Maybe they aren't trying to play on the pro tour but they aint stamp collecting either. Oh, and they are trying to be the best HT team at the test.


If you brought up to any instructor at any judging clinic, be it HRC, NAHRA or AKC, and you told them the above, they'd probably clarify the definition of "non-competitive".

The judges are not there to create separation to the extent that they find one and only one winner, and then assign placements through 4th, followed by RJ and JAM. They are simply there to judge "to a standard" to identify those who are deserving of a "passing" or "qualifying" score versus those who are not.

I believe that for many, it is this difference that drives some who are more competitive, to seek the FT game. To them, if they truly feel that they were the best team on that day, it can feel a bit dis-satisfying that the dog who barely made the cut...walked out on egg shells to each bird, hacked its way to the blind, etc. got the same ribbon and same points as theirs.

Chris


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> It does if your a competitive person


Not at all. There are many areas in life where one wants to be be the absolute best they possibly can be, and it has nothing to do with competition. For example a musician. Do you really need competition to be the best musician you can be? All you need is the burning desire to improve. Same can be said for most every aspect of one's life. Competition is not necessary for one to improve. Only a desire to continually improve at whatever it is you do. 

Competition is merely a way to measure yourself against others. 

Many times it is preferable to measure oneself against one's own limits and reach beyond them. 

The toughest competition is against yourself.


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

..........


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Some peoples stiffest competition is themselves.

I know several, that are expert in their trade, but they are never satisfied with the work they do.

They dont give a witt about others work or opinion,, only their own. They fight a lifelong losing battle trying to satisfy themselves.

These people are the most competitive people I know.

Gooser


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> For example a musician. Do you really need competition to be the best musician you can be? All you need is the burning desire to improve. Same can be said for most every aspect of one's life. Competition is not necessary for one to improve. Only a desire to continually improve at whatever it is you do.



I agree with that statement BUT the person that decides to compete against others in whatever venue they have interest in, they will most likely improve more.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Some peoples stiffest competition is themselves.
> 
> I know several, that are expert in their trade, but they are never satisfied with the work they do.
> 
> ...


I resemble that remark.


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> I agree with that statement BUT the person that decides to compete against others in whatever venue they have interest in, they will most likely improve more.


Some will, yes. But for many others the improvement comes from trying to beat their own past performance.


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

After reading all these posts I am going to just hunt birds for awhile. Happy ThanksGiving To everyone...


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> I first read your post as I was getting ready to leave for work. See, I work as a medical transcriptionist in a hospital for the health authority (i.e. government), not a company. There is no competitor to compete with. I'm the person that makes sure what your doctor wants on your chart is correct. It's my job to ensure that the medication on your chart reads 100 mg of insulin and not 1000 mg; that you're going in for a left ACL repair and not a right ACL repair.
> 
> 
> My dog is trained to do what I want her to do, to *my* standards, not anyone else's. Part of that in the future will be training to become a therapy dog in long-term care facilities (i.e. nursing homes); that's training I will be doing by myself.
> ...


Cheers to you, long but nice response........; )


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

AGirlAndHerDog said:


> I first read your post as I was getting ready to leave for work. See, I work as a medical transcriptionist in a hospital for the health authority (i.e. government), not a company. There is no competitor to compete with. I'm the person that makes sure what your doctor wants on your chart is correct. It's my job to ensure that the medication on your chart reads 100 mg of insulin and not 1000 mg; that you're going in for a left ACL repair and not a right ACL repair.
> 
> I studied for my certificate at home, through distance education, went through 2 tutors with a combined total of 30 years experience who couldn't understand the course work, and still ended up with a 97% average because I stuck with it and spent every waking moment studying. I moved 400 km away from home for the first time, for my first ever job, when I was 20. To get my job, I memorized over 500 medical abbreviations (and memorized how to spell every expanded abbreviation) in 3 days.
> 
> ...


All right then... I appologise and that was an awfully long post I might add, must have been pizzed all the way to work. and I apparently took this post the wrong way.



> *I have no competitive drive. No desire to be better than someone else (or myself at any given time), to win a ribbon, to have a champion, etc. That's not me, that's not what I'm about. *


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## AGirlAndHerDog (Nov 13, 2011)

Apology accepted.  I think you did take the post the wrong way - from the sounds of it. Although I might have inadequately communicated my intended thoughts and I hope the (super long) post above helped clarify what I had originally meant. 

And no, I wasn't actually pissed.  Frustrated and annoyed, of course, but not really mad. This is the internet, and if I let everyone who ever said something negative or harsh towards me affect me long term, well, I'd be a patient in the psychiatric ward rather than typing about them lol 

In any event - over and done with - apology accepted and we move onwards and upwards! Huzzah!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

dixidawg said:


> Some will, yes. But for many others the improvement comes from trying to beat their own past performance.



Against themselves or others? Witch is more rewarding? Depends on the person 

We all have ample opportunities to beat our personal best against ourselves but limited opportunities to beat the competitiion.......


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> Apology accepted.



Thank you, I'll sleep better tonight


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Dont have enough time to train, Dont know how or have enough land, and havnt met my hunt test goals, and have Chocolates


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Against themselves or others? Witch is more rewarding? Depends on the person
> 
> We all have ample opportunities to beat our personal best against ourselves but limited opportunities to beat the competitiion.......


All true. Different things move people to get out of bed in the morning. Some is to do better than the other guy. Some to do better than they did yesterday. Some a little of both.

Many of the great accomplishers and accomplishments of history really didn't have much to do with competition.

Aristotle. Galileo. DaVinci. Shakespeare. Einstein. Beethoven. Picasso. Rex Carr?


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## Pattie (Jan 2, 2004)

My first Field Trial was an O/H Qual my Lab club supported at the Labrador National. I was so excited to go watch these dogs and people in their white jackets.

It was my first big event that I had worked at. I helped make sure there was liquid refreshment at all stakes and helped prepare lunches. 

I had been to all the ‘lower’ stakes, WC, JH, SH, MH at some point during the week end. Everyone was so nice. Saying thank you and all that nice pleasant stuff.

It was time to head for the Qual stake. It was like hitting a wall. I thought I was on another planet. Put a real bad mark in my mind for the FT people.

Years went by and I went to a field trial and saw the same result.

My take on it all: Its competition. Plain and simple. Same in the horse show world. If it involves a placement ribbon it’s not always nice.

I have never run a FT. Would I, probably, I would start at an O/H Qual at a hunt test. Less stress there. I feel it’s a good place to get your feel wet. I have been told my current girl can do the work. 

Will I give her to a Pro? NO!!!!! I Want to do it. She is my dog. I trained her, yes I train with a Semi Pro but I do it all with his help. I also travel, train with other folks/pros and love to learn as does my dog.

What I do with my dogs, Hunt Tests, Obedience Trials, Hike, camping, go on long walks, hang on the couch and watch tv on a day with crappy weather. If it’s time spent with my dogs it time spend well spent.

Pattie


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

[QUOTERex Carr? ] Rex Carr? [/QUOTE]


Not going to let this one go explain yourself please


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## Robbie Coleman (Sep 10, 2009)

To respond to the original. I would love to run FT but I do not have the time to put the necessary time to be competitive in and there is no way I am going to put my dog in a situation where he would not be competitive. Don't want to run a senior unless I feel like my dog is close to being ready for a master. If I had the time to train I would love to run them. I am a competitive person. At every hunt test I always compare my dog to the other dogs running. I also need some more practice. All I need is some time, I am 25 but do want to get involved in the FT game.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I cant see that far.
> 
> 
> Gooser


I just wanted Gooser to know that this comment did not pass by unappreciated.

Cheers!

DP


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> [QUOTERex Carr? ] Rex Carr?


 
Not going to let this one go explain yourself please[/quote]

It's a joke, hyperbole. 
Witch is more rewarding? Dunno. Maybe the blond Witch of the North from the Wizard of Oz.


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

I enjoy Ft's. I love being able to witness great dog work, even if it isn't my dog.
It shows you what is possible! I geuss it's like "Indiana Jones" and the Holy Grail.
The quest for perfect is fleating.

I'm pretty competitive, but hate to see unsportsman like conduct which definitely exist in our sport.

If you learn to train your own dog and work like hell to get access to grounds you can be competitive. Although, it will take you longer to reach goals, especially if you work everyday.

Learning to train you own dogs will help cushion some of the expenses.
No matter how you look at it your going to spend close to $500 per weekend (Fuel, Hotel, Meals, Entry fee's). definitely not cheap!!!!

I find that time spent in the field training is the biggest committment of all.

90% of the people are friendly and absolute Gentleman and Ladies.
There are the 10% who are self centered Jack A$$es, who will do anything for an advantage. They take the sport a little to seriously. (It's not life or death)

I geuss you can't regulate manners?? Mom and Pop should have done that!

When some of you run into the 10%, remember there are 90%ers that would love the new blood and camaraderie.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Brad said:


> and have Chocolates


 



Good to see some people know their limitations:razz:;-)


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Malcolm said:


> 90% of the people are friendly and absolute Gentleman and Ladies.
> There are the 10% who are self centered Jack A$$es.


Which far exceeds the percentage of ladies and gentlemen in the general population!


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Haven't ran a trial or trained a dog in 3/4 years now I think. 

In the beginning it was so interesting. As an avid duck hunter the interest was pure. Couldn't believe what a retriever could really do. It was like magic, and I wanted my dog to me a magician. 

Then avenues opened up and found a few folks to teach us some tricks. Then realized the good tricks didn't come free. 

Then I had a chance to get to know and learn from some real famous people in the game. They were considered the best and it was pretty cool to watch their magic show and develop our own magic show from it all. Pro's, amateurs, weekend warriors, and full timers...they were are performing for the golden tickets. Titles and getting qualified. 

By this time my dog and I had a pretty good magic show of our own. Not the best, but sufficient none the less. Especially since this was our first time turning tricks. 

Somewhere along the line we met some good people in the audience but there were a lot of "weirdo's" too. 

But then came the disappearing act. Life brought different things. A child, a job, then a divorce. Got damn! What just happened?

Still got my show partner but he's too old to do anymore tricks. 

I do have lots of pictures and a few ribbons though, so that's always a good thing I guess. 

Sometimes I think about learning more tricks but I don't know if I'm ready to see the weirdo's again. 

That's about all I got to say about that.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

To me, it is not the trial itself as much as training to the trial level. I have always admired the work of dogs that performed better than mine. I watched local trials when I was young but I did not have the contacts and there were not yet decent training manuals available to learn to train to a higher level.

Seventeen years ago, I entered my hunting dog in a NAHRA Intermediate test and later started doing AKC hunt tests. As I trained more, I realized that our dogs had a lot more potential than we were trying to achieve from them. A demanding job has made it hard to compete at the all age level, but by having a great pro do the young dog work and having a wife that has become intimately involved, we do not embarass ourselves. The dogs only get trained a few days per week and access to water is difficult here.

We hope to move up to the next level with some consistant placements by acquiring property in Montana for summer training. Talk about a pricey sport!

I think it is a think it is a thing of beauty to watch a dog pick up a tough 300 yd retired gun, fighting all the factors to do so. Our dogs love training to that level and there is great satisfaction when they execute.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> I cant see that far.
> 
> 
> Gooser


This may certainly be a deal breaker for me. I can barely see the dogs out there.


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## Brevard Arndt (Jul 2, 2003)

Because I want to. I like to see the dogs working at their limits and control. I like being on the line handling my dog. I recently have started running some opens also. 

I don't worry about the "politics", I just ask myself at the end of the last series I run at that trial if I had fun and did the best I could do handling.

Anything we do in the name of recreation that involves outdoor sports, involves money, sometimes lots of it, depending on the level. Think Golf. 

I do like the competition, but the comradre of my fellow trialers makes the weekend enjoyable.

So if you like a ribbon or two every weekend or try hard for even a "greenie", count your blessings to be able to do what you wish.

Happy Thanksgiving, ya"ll


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

I run field trials, never ran hunt test. Excellence is the drive behind my desire to compete in field trials. I am a youngster, first dog but he did qaa as a two year old and he's 100% amateur trained. I'm not intimidated by the best because I strive to be the best in hopes to beat the best! Success is available to anyone with a dog mind and the drive to be the best, I often hear grumbling about the amateur trainer that's never trained their dog, or a pro that gets 15 bullets on a test. The principle that I have adopted is...if you want to compete against the pros and his dogs, as a true amateur handler and trainer you need to train your dog to a higher level! If you look at the great amateur trainers through the years there training program and ideas are different to most pros. They trained their dog to a higher excellence in hopes that his one dog can beat the pros whole truck.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ken Guthrie said:


> , then a divorce.


That's too bad! Hopefully the little guy will not suffer because of that! 

On a brighter note - what about that guy that won the NL Cy Young?


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

Pattie said:


> My first Field Trial was an O/H Qual my Lab club supported at the Labrador National. I was so excited to go watch these dogs and people in their white jackets.
> 
> It was my first big event that I had worked at. I helped make sure there was liquid refreshment at all stakes and helped prepare lunches.
> 
> ...


I'm just throwing this out there but with an O/H Qual. associated with a hunting test, the vast majority of the handlers are typically hunting test folks just dabbling in a trial setting and are not the regular field trial folks. The field of a recent O/H Qual. associated with a hunting test had every dog entered, _every single one_, with advanced _hunting test_ titles. Another one I looked at had every dog but three with advanced hunting test titles. In other words, it's very likely that the "field trial" folks you didn't care for spend most of their time in hunting tests. My point is to not judge all field trial people by one bad experience with a single group who was most likely more closely associated with hunting tests.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

J. Walker said:


> I'm just throwing this out there but with an O/H Qual. associated with a hunting test, the vast majority of the handlers are typically hunting test folks just dabbling in a trial setting and are not the regular field trial folks. The field of a recent O/H Qual. associated with a hunting test had every dog entered, _every single one_, with advanced _hunting test_ titles. Another one I looked at had every dog but three with advanced hunting test titles. *In other words, it's very likely that the "field trial" folks you didn't care for spend most of their time in hunting tests. My point is to not judge all field trial people by one bad experience with a single group who was most likely more closely associated with hunting tests*.


I may not have interpreted your post correctly but most competitive field trailers shy away from O/H quals. The reason these dogs all shared ht titles is because these were hunt test dogs and handlers running a master and the qual was the same weekend at the same grounds, same club ect.. I may have read your post incorrectly?


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Only one person in our training group did not come from hunting test starts.We have a big time at our trials and meet and greet everyone.BECAUSE ITS FUN !!!!!


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## David (Oct 13, 2010)

There many reasons not to run FTs. But as an avid duck/pheasant hunter, former HT and current FTr.....three words keep me coming back....THE FOURTH SERIES. 

When u are sitting around on Sunday afternoon with 10 or so other handlers (after 50 to 75 started the trial) waiting on the judges to set up the water marks....it's almost as good as the guys in the blind across the lake clapping for a 250 yard blind retrieve on a duck shot hours earlier! 

As a dog guy.... It doesn't get any better. 

David


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I dont run HT Cause I cant see that close!!:razz:

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I's just Lost!!
Gooser


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

hey Gooser,
I heard they dont have to sit in FT at the line:razz:


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

I have been reading this thread with interest. A lot of the points already made can apply to me but when I think about running FT's 3 comments that have been made always come to mind. The first was said "tounge in cheek" and meant to be humourous the other 2 were dead serious. 1 " the only people happy at the end of a FT are the ones that have the blue and the red and then by the time they get home the one with the red is unhappy because they feel they should have got the blue.'
#2 Said by a pro to a group of very happy people who had just received their first puppy stake ribbons. "If it is not the blue ribbon you are handed then you are just the first of the losers" I never saw any of that group at another FT and #3 said to me as I was laughing about my dog breaking in a qual. " I don't know how you can laugh when your dog broke" I thought at that point if I can't laugh at my own stupidity then I had better not get into this game.
I presently run 3 dogs, 2 at the finished/master level. The third has finished her HRCH and has a qual win. Thinking next season may try an amateur or 2 but I do like running qual. Guess it goes back to being not overly competative and as there is not that push for title points the handlers seem to be a more relaxed bunch.


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

champ said:


> I may not have interpreted your post correctly but most competitive field trailers shy away from O/H quals. The reason these dogs all shared ht titles is because these were hunt test dogs and handlers running a master and the qual was the same weekend at the same grounds, same club ect.. I may have read your post incorrectly?


I was replying to the poster who said she worked an O/H trial associated with a hunting test who said the O/H group was like "hitting a wall." I was simply pointing out, as you did, that the handlers were not really field trial folks so it's unfair to basically say the "field trial" handlers were rude or unfriendly (and by extension, that all field trial handlers are rude) when it was most likely just hunting test handlers there to run an O/H stake as part of the hunting test.


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## Pattie (Jan 2, 2004)

Hi J Walker,

I miss typed in the beginning of my post. The first FT I went to was just a Qual stake not an O/H Qual. Sorry for that confusion. 

I still want to try my hand some day at it just to see what it's all about and when that time comes it will probably be at an O/H Qual mostly for the reasons you mentioned being that it will mostly be the same people running the same dogs in Master. 

Again sorry for the confusion. 
Pattie


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

2tall said:


> My first dog will never have the line manners to meet that standard.


I have worked but never run FTs but run HTs- is the standard for line manners less at the FT level than the HT level???


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

I love field trials! And This Is Why We Do It:

Hmmmm... Do we play these games because of ribbons? Or is there something else... You drive to the event full of hope, happiness and excitement that you have trained you dog for his/her first event. Nevermind that you couldn't possibly train yourself for YOUR first event! You are going to hang out with the people who coached you along the way, and people you have heard about, and people who you have talked into coming.. 

You roll in to the festive atmosphere and grab your catalogue and watch the test dog. You have heard about the test dogs wonders, and you start to feel the fear gripping your stomach when you see the test dog blowing it. If the test dog screwed up, how is your dog going to perform? Yikes! Back to the truck you go, and you remember to air your dog, and start to get ready for your 1st time to the line... Maybe just get back in the truck and chill for a while...

The marshall has sent someone to look for you. Ugh! You have to run ahead of someone! What?! Now you Get out of the truck, and immediately go puke behind the truck. Then get your dog, and with shaking hands put her on lead. Pray that she doesn't notice you are nervous and drag you to the line. On the way to the test area, relish the feeling of the thunderous stomach ache that has all of a sudden over come you again. Only this time you have to make a trip to the woods and pray that no-one sees you, and pray that you remembered some paper products.

Once your internal organs are completely empty, you continue on to the holding blinds. You start to notice that you can hear nothing but loud rushing sounds in your ears. You try to shake that and clear your head. You realize how stupid it is. You realize that you don't even know why you are playing this dumb dog game, and that you should just go home. You wish you could go to the woods again. You wish that no-one would notice you because you just KNOW that EVERYONE is staring at you and only you, instead of watching the test.

Your feet begin to feel as if lead weights are in the soles of your shoes. By the time you get to the last blind your feet will have sprouted roots and you will be unabe to move them when the judge calls your name. Finally when you have mentally been able to force yourself out and up to the line, you will be horrified that your genious dog has just knocked over the judge, pulled birds off the rack, or has just positioned herself about 5 feet ahead of the line. So then you feel a new surge of panic. You forget what you are allowed to say and do. You pray you can get your dog back into somewhat of a heel position. You call for the birds and with each one your dog creeps forward again. You just know she will launch early. And then the relief sets in when the judge says "dog". 

And after he gets the birds, and the rushing in your ears passes, you can hear the gallery clapping and your legs feel like rubber as you walk back through the crowd. This is why we do what we do. You get sucked in that 1st time and can hardly wait to do it again...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

RxRatedLabs said:


> I have worked but never run FTs but run HTs- is the standard for line manners less at the FT level than the HT level???


 
I dont run FT's ,, but I am pretty observant,,in any case take this for what its worth.

In my opinion,, a dog that doesnt have stellar line manners doesnt really stand much of a chance to clearly see and mark falls.

also, it seems a dog that is quite loose, is a red flag as to its cooperation on blinds.

Dogs like this MAY pass a STANDARD,, but they dont have a chance COMPEATING.

JMHO>

Gooser


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## lbbuckler (Jun 7, 2008)

DEDEYE said:


> And after he gets the birds, and the rushing in your ears passes, you can hear the gallery clapping and your legs feel like rubber as you walk back through the crowd. This is why we do what we do. You get sucked in that 1st time and can hardly wait to do it again...


Absolutely Dedeye. You captured the feeling. It actually starts for me as soon as I hit the "enter" button on entryexpress and builds through posting of the running order, to the night before when you are wondering whether the "right" dog will get off the truck. It is better than chocolate and I love chocolate!


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

schb02 said:


> I feel if you get any type of ribbon in a field trial you did good. There are several people I have congradulated them on there JAM and got a look that could kill. After that I have never spoke to anyone that got a JAM.


Someone on RTF had a sig line that goes like this:
"Competition reveals character"
Most FT'ers are of good character, and some are bigger characters than others. 
One thing to remember is that when people are in competition, they are not relaxed. It's important to all of us to have your game on. It's still no excuse for rude behavior though.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> If you have to explain to someone why YOU run FTs, they probably wont understand.
> 
> 1st series of the SRC derby this Fall... Memory bird comes out at about 300 yards at 12 o'clock then the go bird flier behind some brush at 2 o'clock and 75 yards. Send the dog, picks up the flier after a smallish hunt. He comes in and lines himself up for the memory bird....sent him, he fights the cover, wind and steep side of a hill...after about 200 yards of the way there the judges STAND UP out of their chairs and say, "holy sh!t look at him go". He runs up there and pins that bird. There is NOOOO HT ribbon that can equal that 1 series in a FT minor stake.
> 
> ...


Gavin's got this right. It's about the dog work. 

When my Niki got QAA, we were the last to run the water blind. It was a shoreline blind with ins and outs; she was perfect. Even gave her a cast toward the shore, and she took it perfectly, skimming the cover. the judges said, "we've waited all afternoon to see a blind like that." On the water marks the next day, it was cold. She was the only dog to hit the water and take that sliver to get the long retired up on the dike. I was so proud of her.  I had been the one training her.

When FC Honor and I ran a field trial, no dog was doing the long retired without a hunt in hte last series. I sent him and sat back and watched that dog do those ups and overs in the water, and put his nose on htat bird 350-400 yards out..... got goose bumps up my arms. Nothing like it.

And when FC Ruckus got that Am blue! That whole trial had moments I'll never forget: how he let me "help" him remember that long retired, and let me send him.... and as he ran, I saw that he "remembered" the mark. In the last series, while we were the first to run, and he made it seem so easy, I was shocked when I came back from the open to find all these great dogs hunting the heck out of the last series marks. And getting my first open ribbon! 

the pride you feel for the teamwork and the work of the dog when trained to these levels.....

You put the politics, real or perceived, aside, and just do it.

Course, I can remember feeling just as proud of Justice, my first lab, when he got his JH...... I remember a hunting test at Madison RC. There was a mark thrown into the lilly pads. He went in and nailed it! I whistled him in, and said "good boy Cup Cake!" The judge looked shocked and said, "that doesn't look like a cup cake to me, it looks like the whole darn cake!" 

Both games have a purpose... and a place. I won't say one is better than the other, just what I prefer.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

We started in field trials over 40 years ago. When hunt tests came along, they were easier to train for, requiring less land and water distances. We've had two MH's and one even finished the master national. Now we have a dog that seems to be more inclined for field trials, so it may be that we will be back to the old games again! In the final analysis, it is all about the dogs, not the games.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Our field trial record was dismal at best. In six years we accumulated one fourth place in a qual and a handful of green ribbons. I never thought of quitting (which probably doesn't say much about my brain!) until Hoss's age and health forced our retirement. The number one thing that kept me going was the ever evolving partnership with my best bud. Although they were few and far between, there were those thriller moments. too. I wouldn't take any amount of money for those memories. 
One of the main things that kept me plugging, though, was learning. I love to learn. And it never ceased to amaze me that pros and ams alike, national champions, finalists, took the time and made the effort to help us. They had absolutely nothing to gain from it but they still did. 
Those combination of things keep me making the long drives, when I can, to train and try to turn my 14 month old lap dog into a trial dog. It would never occur to me to do otherwise.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

RxRatedLabs said:


> I have worked but never run FTs but run HTs- is the standard for line manners less at the FT level than the HT level???


There is no "standard" in FT's. There is only do or don't do. Yes, your going to get dropped if your dog breaks or no goes. But if he is creeping, noisy, etc you will still get to come play the next round if he returns with all the birds in an excellent manner. As someone else said earlier, these bad line manners will cause the dog to fail the marking test at some point. My experience in HT's tells me that it really does not matter if you bring home the chickens or line the blind, if the dog is a PIA at the line, you go home. I am NOT arguing this in any way! Such a dog should NOT pass a test for hunting dogs. 

But I enjoy going to the line with my dog so I play the field trial game. Where if he does what he can do, I get to come back another time or two. I just will not less this happen with my new one. Someday I would like to make it all the way to the end!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

RxRatedLabs said:


> I have worked but never run FTs but run HTs- is the standard for line manners less at the FT level than the HT level???


No, the standard is not different, even though different judges may place more or less importance on it in _either_ venue.

The difference is that in FTs you won't typically get three marks within 50 - 100 yds. ;-)

JS


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

> Originally Posted by RxRatedLabs
> I have worked but never run FTs but run HTs- is the standard for line manners less at the FT level than the HT level???


In my (limited) experience, some dogs at a FT don't necessarily sit. They crouch. Examples (from theretrievernews.com NRC blog)

The new NFC FC Watermark's Running Back and Jim Gonia









Another Finalist NFC Two Rivers Lucky Willie and Dave Rorem


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

red devil said:


> ...
> I judge Ht's. Each and every time I do, I learn something new. I especially like seeing the synergy between handler and dog develop through the levels.
> 
> I run Ht's and have never tired of going to the line with my dogs, nor of hearing my dog's name called in the evening.
> ...


I could have written much of the above.



RookieTrainer said:


> As most of you know, I am just starting out with my first retriever, let alone the retriever games, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt.
> 
> I have been to both field trials and one hunt test. Let me tell you about the different experiences.
> 
> ...


I have a friend who is just now making the jump from HTs to FTs. The way he put it to me was this: "Everyone is welcoming and friendly and supportive, at first. But if you make it to the fourth series, you're the enemy." I don't see that at HTs. Sure, there are people who run HTs who don't like each other, but that's a human nature kind of thing.

I've been to hundreds of HTs and dozens of FTs over the 20+ years I've been involved with retrievers. I've done every job possible at HTs, from throwing birds and planting blinds, to chairing and judging, to running my own dogs in all 3 levels. Most of my experience at FTs has been as a shooter, but I've also worked other supportive roles. I've spent a good deal of time in the gallery in both venues, and it has been the gallery chatter that has resounded most strongly whenever I think about maybe trying trials myself.

_Fact: Competition brings out the best in people, but it also brings out the worst._ I've sat and watched in awe the things that an Amateur or Open AA dog can do, but I've had that awe severely tempered by listening to the things people were saying about the dog, the dog's handler, the handler's parents, and on and on. I don't hear that kind of thing at HTs.

To each his/her own. I take nothing away from the people who run trials with their dogs, especially if they're the ones at the line with their own dogs. But the intensity of the event pretty much requires a degree of competitiveness that will bubble to the surface in an ugly fashion in many people at least some of the time. Just human nature, I suppose, but not my cup o' tea. For those people who thrive in that kind of environment, more power to ya.


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## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

I run both "games". My main purpose in starting out was to have a good hunting dog. However, I nearly hung it up at one point as I had a pro that turned out to be a drunken brute with dogs and he nearly ruined my mine. He was even picking up dogs by the collar and slugging them. I went to him on a recommendation of someone that was in the games. 

I went with another FT pro and after a year of remedial work we got through some of the major issues. I also used a HT trainer who got him through others. We started to run HT's and the results were disappointing at best but I believed in the dog and soon he started to work for me. He has now passed 22 MH tests and has gone to the MNHT 3 times with a pass in one of those. He is now QAA and running FT's as well. We have been to the fourth series in the opens a number of times and we have achieved a RJ in the amateurs with him.

I am now running his son in the games as well. That dog is now QAA and needs 2 more passes for his MH

Why do I run the games? I guess first of all I run to see how we are progressing in training. Second, there is the camaraderie among dog people that is rare today. I don't know what other sport where your competitors wish you the best of luck as you walk to the line.

I know it is tough to win when you are up against the pros and the best of breeding in the FT's . I found, if I keep score by the number of FC/AFCs go out before my dogs, I find the games a little more less frustrating.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

mlopez said:


> In my (limited) experience, some dogs at a FT don't necessarily sit. They crouch. Examples (from theretrievernews.com NRC blog)
> 
> The new NFC FC Watermark's Running Back and Jim Gonia
> 
> ...


At the end of a week of flyers, the dogs tend to get a little bit looser. What did they look like in the first series?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I got hooked on Field Trials in 1999, running my dog Zowie in the Derby. I was not welcomed into the sport, and I really didn’t care. I was so excited learning how to handle Zowie and amazed by the power and exuberance he exhibited while picking up birds that everything else just faded into the background. I thought then - and I think now - that running Field Trials were the most difficult thing that I have ever done.

Time has not changed my excitement in training or running the dogs. Nor has time diminished the challenge that training and handling dogs presents. I feel like every day I learn something new about the dogs and myself. 

My competition is mostly internal. By that, I mean that I do not go to a FT thinking that I need to beat this handler/dog team or that handler/dog team. When I come to the line, I am thinking about my dog and its particular strengths/weaknesses, the nature of the test, and what I can do to maximize my dog’s performance. When I feel that my dog and I have done are best, I am content. When I feel that either one of us has been lacking, I am disappointed. 

I often hear it said that there is only one person happy at the end of a trial - the person who brings home the blue ribbon. That is not true for me. Nor is it true for most of my friends. 

I still remember the first Open JAM I received with my dog Ace, almost ten years ago. And I remember the Derby Reserve JAM I got with my young dog, Kitty, this Spring, when she was barely a year old. The memories give me a warm feeling inside because I thought that the dogs and I had given our very best. I believe that the people in FT who are mostly unhappy are more interested in external recognition (colored ribbons) than in internal satisfaction for a job well done.

It is the pursuit of excellence and subtlety that keeps me coming back. That’s why I am hooked.

I want to say something about the social aspect of the sport. I am a very private person. And I am very intense about everything I do. When I am at a field trial, my focus is on the task at hand - eliciting the very best performance that I can out of my dogs. I don’t socialize much. I don’t sit in the gallery much. Mostly, I watch some dogs run, formulate my plan, then go back to my truck to visualize what I want to do. So, I may be one of the people about whom earlier poster complained.

I keep to myself, because that’s who I am. It has nothing to do with thinking that I or my dogs occupy some special status in life.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I ran my hunting dog in a Derby in 1971, I was single and 25 years old. Out in the first series but I was hooked, field trials shaped and defined my life. I became acquainted with and became friends with people from all economic and social stratas that I would never had contact with except for my involvement in field trials. 

I have thought about quitting more than once but when considering the alternatives I have concluded that I don't like fishing, I gave up golf as a teenager because my temperament was unsuited for the game, my social life was almost non existent outside field trials, and I was too old to make new friends and adopt a new hobby.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I got hooked on Field Trials in 1999, running my dog Zowie in the Derby. I was not welcomed into the sport, and I really didn’t care. I was so excited learning how to handle Zowie and amazed by the power and exuberance he exhibited while picking up birds that everything else just faded into the background. I thought then - and I think now - that running Field Trials were the most difficult thing that I have ever done.
> 
> Time has not changed my excitement in training or running the dogs. Nor has time diminished the challenge that training and handling dogs presents. I feel like every day I learn something new about the dogs and myself.
> 
> ...


Ted,

No credentials to post from on this thread, but having both watched you run your dogs (with intensity and focus-in the zone) & then having been a guest at your house-it's very clear that you put your game face on when running and are a very affable person otherwise. True for most (not all!) folks who play this game. I think it's misconstrued as ego when someone is not approachable before running their dog. It's not the time to socialize.

As for competing, as opposed to just wanting to help your dog do his very best: My son is an avid golfer. He has told me severral times that he has no interest in anyone else's scores. He is there to do the best he can and beat HIS last score. It's a matter of concentration and a personal best. He loves the game and competing with anyone but himself would take away from his love for the game. I think that's true for the people who I like in the dog games. They have a genuine love and respect for their dogs and their God given talents. It's about seeing the dog shine in his own right and not about besting anyone else. If your dog does the best he could with what you were able to give him on line you can walk away with some measure of success. I'm guessing (hoping) that those of us who train our own dogs (& sometimes handicapped doing so) feel that way. You can't expect a dog to give you more than you've given them by virtue of training or handling.

M


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Ok I consider myself an Am even though I train hunting/hunt test/blood trailers for a living.I compete in field trials with my own dogs only,and have foregone my skydiving,fishing,hunting hobbies because I'm blessed with a nice young dog that has done fairly well in trials.I have a blast training with my dear friends on the weekends,and run my dog in Opens now that he has won two Qs. Like Ted,I am thrilled to have him at three years old make it to the water blind twice now ,and beat out 48 reaaaallly nice dogs getting there.I guess its relative to each persons personal goals.I loves it !


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

2tall said:


> There is no "standard" in FT's. There is only do or don't do. Yes, your going to get dropped if your dog breaks or no goes. But if he is creeping, noisy, etc you will still get to come play the next round if he returns with all the birds in an excellent manner. As someone else said earlier, these bad line manners will cause the dog to fail the marking test at some point. My experience in HT's tells me that it really does not matter if you bring home the chickens or line the blind, if the dog is a PIA at the line, you go home. I am NOT arguing this in any way! Such a dog should NOT pass a test for hunting dogs.
> 
> But I enjoy going to the line with my dog so I play the field trial game. Where if he does what he can do, I get to come back another time or two. I just will not less this happen with my new one. Someday I would like to make it all the way to the end!


I would think no matter whether you are in FT or HRC or HT that the dog stands a better chance to do good marking by not creeping etc at the line! He should concentrate on the marks!!You can win or loose it at the line! Yes you are right, in HRC you go home, you might not even get to play second half. Gun safety a priority! Been there!Don't know about HT and how much you can get away with.!!IMO


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> win or loose it at the line! Yes you are right, in HRC you go home, you might not even get to play second half.


I thought in HRC you got to run 2nd series if you wanted to even if your dog screwed up the first series


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> I want to say something about the social aspect of the sport. I am a very private person. And I am very intense about everything I do. When I am at a field trial, my focus is on the task at hand - eliciting the very best performance that I can out of my dogs. I don’t socialize much. I don’t sit in the gallery much. Mostly, I watch some dogs run, formulate my plan, then go back to my truck to visualize what I want to do. So, I may be one of the people about whom earlier poster complained.
> 
> I keep to myself, because that’s who I am. It has nothing to do with thinking that I or my dogs occupy some special status in life.


Fair enough statement! Good you do this method. Concentration is key when you are running your dog!


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> At the end of a week of flyers, the dogs tend to get a little bit looser. What did they look like in the first series?


You made me go look  I found a few with butts off the ground, and a few creeping ahead. I agree, a whole week of birds will cause some loosening. I guess I was just trying to demonstrate some dogs in an FT that would still be considered "steady." I've never been to an HT, but from reading the rules, it appears that this extend of creeping would be scored pretty low in "steadiness."


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

mlopez said:


> You made me go look  I found a few with butts off the ground, and a few creeping ahead. I agree, a whole week of birds will cause some loosening. I guess I was just trying to demonstrate some dogs in an FT that would still be considered "steady." I've never been to an HT, but from reading the rules, it appears that this extend of creeping would be scored pretty low in "steadiness."


Marie : still pictures capture just a blink in the entire sequence...the dog may indeed have his rump off the ground for a split second when the shutter snaps, but in reality the dog may very well have rocked back into the sitting position before being sent


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## drbobsd (Feb 21, 2004)

Buzz said:


> Funny Chris, that brings back a memory. First time I ever got BLUE the called out all the places including 2nd, and being the infinitely optimistic guy that I am I was thinking what the heck, I'm not going to get any ribbon today? Then I heard through the fog, and first place goes to Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash! Pretty freak'in sweet, even if it was only a derby.


Dave

I know the journey thus far has been fun with lots of ups and downs. 

Training my English bred personal pheasant dog to a Rjam in QAA has been a great experience for me as a handler and trainer.

I don't know if he has the breeding and desire to beat the youngsters coming up in QAA as your dogs and ones always showing up at trials. So QAA would be FC for him. I owe Josey more than he could ever owe me for this game.

To handle both my professionally trained dogs, Finn in QAA and Ruby in derby for the blue was awesome.

Thanks "Josey" for what you've taught me.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Miriam Wade said:


> As for competing, as opposed to just wanting to help your dog do his very best: My son is an avid golfer. He has told me severral times that he has no interest in anyone else's scores. He is there to do the best he can and beat HIS last score. It's a matter of concentration and a personal best. He loves the game and competing with anyone but himself would take away from his love for the game.


M

Don't get me wrong. I love bringing home the blue, but I am much like your son. It is an internal competition for me.

Ted


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

A good dog will be on the mat after the birds go down. Line manners are over looked far to often if you ask me.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> At the end of a week of flyers, the dogs tend to get a little bit looser. What did they look like in the first series?


The other thing to keep in mind is that those pictures came from the 10th series. Building for 10 straight series, doing a quad for the 9th with 2 flyers in it, then finishing with a quad in the 10th, 3 flyers. A dog that will stay with you through 4 marks, 3 of them flyers, after 9 series, that's a really nice & well trained animal.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

drbobsd said:


> Dave
> 
> I know the journey thus far has been fun with lots of ups and downs.
> 
> ...



I think that anytime you are still standing at the end, that's awesome, because the majority of folks are on their way home or already there. Josey does everything you ask him to. He is a nice dog regardless if he'll ever pick up a blue on the weekend.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mjh345 said:


> I thought in HRC you got to run 2nd series if you wanted to even if your dog screwed up the first series


I have been at one HRC that several didn't get to run. But you are right most of the time you can run the second part of the test. They are telling you if you pass or fail before the second run. So maybe I should say you might choose to run again. You paid. Maybe someone else can shed more on this.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

BonMallari said:


> Marie : still pictures capture just a blink in the entire sequence...the dog may indeed have his rump off the ground for a split second when the shutter snaps, but in reality the dog may very well have rocked back into the sitting position before being sent


Very, very true. And in fact while I was looking, I also noticed that it was difficult to tell when a dog was just creeping out or had just been sent. 

As an amateur and newbie, I think I will just pray that my pup doesn't break...


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

In HRC, unless you have been dq'ed for gun safety you always have the right to run the 2nd series. There is an exception for dangerous weather, but I have never seen it. Many choose not to as they do not want to reward their dog's behaviour or to allow a condition to go uncorrected. Judge's may hint that it is unwise for you to run, but ultimately it is your decision.

HRC judges are being strongly encouraged to let a handler know if they have failed and have no chance of recovery before they leave the line. This is 180 deg opposite to the way it was a few years ago.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> M
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I love bringing home the blue, but I am much like your son. It is an internal competition for me.
> 
> Ted


 



I totally agree with your statement Ted I feel the same way. It is also for this reason that I am not intimidated when going up against a bunch of good pros at a trial. It is the test that is my competition, I must first beat the test before I worry about the rest of the competitors.
I also thought I had been treated rudely when attending my first trial as a spectator except for one lady and I will never forget that. That lady was Glenda Brown. I stayed away from trials for a long time because of that but once I got involved I realized I wasnt really treated rudely. The people there were just very involved in what they were doing. Now as I go to the line there is always someone and sometime multiple someones that will say good luck or after running people will ask well how did it go? 
I started with HT but by far prefer FT. May the best dog win and if it aint me them it is my fault. I have done very well up to QAA with all my dogs I have trialed but still keep trying for that FC.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Steve you get it, and you will GET IT! (that FC I mean)


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

started of in HT, acheived MH title. More mountains to climb and conquests to make. sold the HT dog and bought and AA dog to train me while the other AA dog was coming along in training. Sold that dog because she was not AA material. Finally got some AA competitive dogs. Confirmed addict without apology. Persuing AA handling carreer. All we can do is shine it up the best we can, no one can understand unless they are addicted and under the spell. Can't talk anyone into or out of this hobby/sport. Addictions are not logical.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Its sad to hear that there are those among us for who the dog is just a vehicle........

john


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

john fallon said:


> Its sad to hear that there are those among us for who the dog is just a vehicle........
> 
> john


I was thinking the same thing...


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Its sad to hear that there are those among us for who the dog is just a vehicle........
> 
> john


Here comes the "I've never sold a dog" crowd. Personally, I find this insulting. If you don't think dogs are just as happy in good, caring home B as they are in good, caring home A, (particularly labs) then you have an overinflated sense of your relationship with your dogs. People have different goals. Your choice to keep a dog regardless of the circumstances doesn't make you morally superior.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

john fallon said:


> Its sad to hear that there are those among us for who the dog is just a vehicle........
> 
> john


John,
I learned long ago that a Champion is a Champion, regardless trophies, titles or ribbons.
Same with losers.

"The quality of a persons life is in direct proportion to thier commitment to excellence, regardless thier chosen field of endeavor!"
Vincent T. Lombardi


stan b


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

john fallon said:


> Its sad to hear that there are those among us for who the dog is just a vehicle........
> 
> john


Never thought of it in those terms...

Some people have a real knack for finding the negative in most anything, but to each his own.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Here comes the "I've never sold a dog" crowd. Personally, I find this insulting. If you don't think dogs are just as happy in good, caring home B as they are in good, caring home A, (particularly labs) then you have an overinflated sense of your relationship with your dogs. People have different goals. Your choice to keep a dog regardless of the circumstances doesn't make you morally superior.


 
The DOG may be happier,, But I wont!!!
I'm protecting my emotions,, it doesnt have a THING to do with Morality.

I do however understand the search for THE dog. Especially a COMPETITION dog. 

But for a dog who I want to spend some time in a blind with,, be part of the Family,, Sit in the Canoe as I fly fish,, I will play the deck I am delt, and make the best of it.

The Last two I have had,, I would get VERY wet flyfishin!:razz: 

Gooser


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> The DOG may be happier,, But I wont!!!
> I'm protecting my emotions,, it doesnt have a THING to do with Morality.
> 
> I do however understand the search for THE dog. Especially a COMPETITION dog.
> ...


It sounds like you get it, Gooser. Fallon has been beating that same drum for years, though.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> It sounds like you get it, Gooser. Fallon has been beating that same drum for years, though.


It makes us feel warm and fuzzy to believe our dogs can't be happy without us.  

JS


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

And don't forget, some of us do the games because it lets us spend time with our dogs. We did not get the dogs to run our games for us. It is only perspective. Nothing wrong with the goal driven person finding the right dog for him, as long as he finds the right home for the dogs that do not measure up.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Here comes the "I've never sold a dog" crowd. Personally, I find this insulting. If you don't think dogs are just as happy in good, caring home B as they are in good, caring home A, (particularly labs) then you have an overinflated sense of your relationship with your dogs. People have different goals. Your choice to keep a dog regardless of the circumstances doesn't make you morally superior.


I could care less what you find insulting. I find your indignation a bit self serving.... If one finds that culling through dogs till they find the right one to put on a pros truck to spend all of its waking hours in a 22x19x36" box except for the time it is out to air or train so that they can say that they own a FC/AFC fulfilling... good for them . Me ? I just don't happen to see it that way !

I did not come over from HT . I started here. I run HT for the dogs that don't make it after a lot of trying in FTs. If that what it means to be a looser (?) Count me in!

John


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> All we can do is shine it up the best we can, no one can understand unless they are addicted and under the spell. Can't talk anyone into or out of this hobby/sport. Addictions are not logical.


Well said Tom.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

john fallon said:


> I could care less what you find insulting. I find your indignation a bit self serving.... If one finds that culling through dogs till they find the right one to put on a pros truck to spend all of its waking hours in a 22x19x36" box except for the time it is out to air or train so that they can say that they own a FC/AFC fulfilling... good for them . Me ? I just don't happen to see it that way !
> 
> I did not come over from HT . I started here. I run HT for the dogs that don't make it after a lot of trying in FTs. If that what it means to be a looser (?) Count me in!
> 
> John



Swing and a miss. My dogs have spent about 10 minutes with pros while I was on vacation. Like I said, you've had an axe to grind against anyone who sells dogs or uses a pro for a while. It's tiresome. Be careful who you look down your nose at because you're probably alienating the majority of the members of this forum.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

If we were all the same this sport wouldn't be the same. We need every type of person involved or it wouldn't be what it is today. Not saying its perfect but I enjoy what it is or isn't.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Swing and a miss. My dogs have spent about 10 minutes with pros while I was on vacation. Like I said, you've had an axe to grind against anyone who sells dogs or uses a pro for a while. It's tiresome. Be careful who you look down your nose at because *you're probably alienating the majority of the members of this forum*.


There are 13567 members of this forum. how many do you think fit the mold of those in question. 

While I have your attention. What do you find so motovating about your signature line . 

john


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

john fallon said:


> There are 13567 members of this forum. how many do you think fit the mold of those in question.
> 
> While I have your attention. What do you find so motovating about your signature line .
> 
> john


It's a joke made by a fictional character. If you weren't so busy being a crotchety contrarian, you probably could've figured it out by yourself.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

A couple of days ago, I was down in my layout blind thinking.....some. It was a perfect day for duck hunting....breeze from behind me, cloudy and cold. The ducks weren't buying it. I looked around (because there really was nothing much going on) and then asked myself, "Why are you here, alone with your dog and not doing something worthwhile?" Then it came to me that I liked what I was doing......no.....I was totally "into" the morning. 

Earlier in the darkness, I had to continuallly probe with a spotlight in the backwaters following a route to the main channel. This morning was easier because another boat was a few seconds ahead of me and I just followed them. He had a bigger load and when the river widened I sped ahead to the south following the reflective green and red main channel markers to the "last island". 

Taffey and I had been here before so we knew how to reach the north point. The setup was easy because of a hard, sandy bottom. Even though the morning weather seemed perfect, no ducks flew near us and at about 9:30 am, I turned to Taffey telling her our job was finished. Soon, the only thing that remained were our footprints. 

A person has choices about what they can and cannot do, but it is sure a blessing to be able to do what you like most. As you get older you begin to question why.....more often. Frankly, I've become extremely content in saying this is what I *really* want to do. 

In addition, I am comfortable with the fact I can't do everything. I know my dogs are happy. Therefore, I won't be doing field trials because I'd much rather be doing this........often.......and yes, it is much better when the ducks are fooled into joining the fun.  

*duck hunting on the Mississippi River*


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Kwick Labs Nice pic! Thanks for sharing!


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## M R Ducks (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm not into the time and money required for FTs. I want a good hunting companion - and that means a good friend to have around the house the other 300 days a year. But there is something to be said for "metrics." I've hunted with guys who will say "my dog could easliy be a master hunter if I just ran the darn HT," and then the dog procedes to either break as a bird lands in the decoys, or worse - looks at you like you cluelessly at the edge of the water with cripple flopping around. I think every hunting dog should go run one JH HT leg - just so you know what you have so you can decide if you want to work on making things better- that's all. A good JH able dog is all most guys need in a retriever - my 2 cents. But it IS COOL to watch a dog YOU trained line a long retrieve over obstacles. Might not translate to a hunting situation - but cool.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

To answer the original question, I run a few field trials (qualifying mostly). Don't have the dog to run all age right now. I do it for the dog. I've been around trials helping out most of my life. The first trial I ran, my attitude was that I have no chance to compete against pros or pro trained dogs or even retired amateur trained dog. Now I'm kinda ticked and am determined to win one day. It may be a long ways away, but I will get there one day. 

I run hunt test as well. I do it for the dogs to have fun and for the good folks hanging out at the tailgate. A lot of people are willing to help each other out at hunt test. My original thoughts was nobody would help you out at a field trial. I was wrong. I found the people are just as nice and willing to share a wealth of knowledge. All you have to do is ask. There is a big age gap though. I think that comes from being able to afford a pro or be retired and still being working age (for the most part).


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Judged Jr and Sr at hunt test last spring. What made it fun was the junior handler and his success at meeting a standard. Anyone under a certain age can run any level dog to get a handlers certificate after passing the needed number of events for a level.

The young man was running his grandfather's FC. The grandfather assisted him to the holding blind but the boy did a nice job of handling his dog at the line. The comment from grandpa was that he wanted his grandson to enjoy the sport and HT's were so much fun...

Everyone congratulated the handler when he got his ribbon & he seemed to thoroughly enjoy the experience... and I don't think there were any comments about bringing a Cannon to a BB gun competition.

As I understand it, FT clubs used to have picnic trials so newbys could run without the pressure - let's say, get their feet wet. I have been told that they were fun. 

Where do dog people go to have fun and get help now? People join organized clubs and most are HT clubs that have activities other than 2 competitive events a year. The activities include hosted seminars, training days and other social activities. All of which explain why HT's have many new participants and FT folks don't understand why they are unable to attract many newbys (but I really think that new participants in FTs are not really wanted because most FTlers do not want big entries, which is what happens when people get involved).

Enough said...


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

The op asked why people run or do not run fts. The thread then degenerated into the usual "I run fts because they are better (and so am I) than you are" garbage. Ft people with this kind of attitude are a big reason more (most?) of us do not care to participate. AND PULEEZE. . . .the mere fact that your dog runs in fts DOES NOT MAKE IT A BETTER HUNTING DOG.

We will now return to your regularly scheduled slobberfest. Let the thoughtless overly sensitive invective begin!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

red devil said:


> The op asked why people run or do not run fts. The thread then degenerated into the usual "I run fts because they are better (and so am I) than you are" garbage. Ft people with this kind of attitude are a big reason more (most?) of us do not care to participate. AND PULEEZE. . . .the mere fact that your dog runs in fts DOES NOT MAKE IT A BETTER HUNTING DOG.
> 
> We will now return to your regularly scheduled slobberfest. Let the thoughtless overly sensitive invective begin!


Oh, and where did you find the coloring for the glasses to ignore those who have criticized Field Trials and those who glorify either hunting or hunt tests?


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Color me critical of anyone arrogant enough to place themself on a pedestal based on a false assumption that a good dog makes them better than anyone else whatever the venue but rampant in ft circles, not uncommon in the upper levels of hts and not unknown in a duck blind.

Ever noticed that many of the top trainers on the ft circuit are the most humble gracious people who almost always complement the dogs first? Ever noticed that the biggest boors. . .Oh never mind


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

red devil said:


> Color me critical of anyone arrogant enough to place themself on a pedestal based on a false assumption that a good dog makes them better than anyone else whatever the venue but rampant in ft circles, not uncommon in the upper levels of hts and not unknown in a duck blind.


Just where in this thread have people who participate in FT placed themselves on a pedestal?


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Brad said:


> Whats the difference in British,(sp?) and American guns?


Guns or Labs? British guns have those dumb straight stocks on them.


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

red devil said:


> Color me critical of anyone arrogant enough to place themself on a pedestal based on a false assumption that a good dog makes them better than anyone else whatever the venue but rampant in ft circles, not uncommon in the upper levels of hts and not unknown in a duck blind.
> 
> You are certainly welcome to your views on this but I have to tell you I see things much differently. I see very few folks placing them on any pedestal at all and in particular I do not see it rampant in the FT circle as you suggest.Guess it depends on the crowd you're in.
> Your obvious bias against Field Trials appears to be showing.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Some one earlier in this thread stated that you get out of your chosen venue what you put in it. Many have said they dont have what it takes (money, time, grounds) to be competive. Granted it takes alot to compete at the top level in any sport or competitive hobby. Some of us are willing to make the sacrifices to get to the top level of retriever trials. Others are satisfied with hunt test. I dont understand the resentment of the ht crowd when they try and compare ht to ft. Once you have hunted witb a Field Champion you will understand that a jh just wont cut it.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Just where in this thread have people who participate in FT placed themselves on a pedestal?


Nothing specific to quote...

just the vibe. ;-)

It's out there Ted. Whether anyone wants to believe it...it's out there.

FT folks are different compared to society in general. Plain and simple. Not necessarily good or bad.



Take note of my sig. line for quite sometime now!


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

red devil said:


> Color me critical of anyone arrogant enough to place themself on a pedestal based on a false assumption that a good dog makes them better than anyone else whatever the venue but rampant in ft circles, not uncommon in the upper levels of hts and not unknown in a duck blind.
> 
> Ever noticed that many of the top trainers on the ft circuit are the most humble gracious people who almost always complement the dogs first? Ever noticed that the biggest boors. . .Oh never mind


You seem to have an inferiority complex. Let me help you. It's OK, as long as you and your dogs are having fun. Really.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> FT folks are different compared to society in general!


As are CEOs, business tycoons, professional athletes, street bums, religious zealots, etc. etc., so what's your point?....you think you're normal and the rest of the world consists of odd balls....;-)


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MikeBoley said:


> Some one earlier in this thread stated that you get out of your chosen venue what you put in it. Many have said they dont have what it takes (money, time, grounds) to be competive. Granted it takes alot to compete at the top level in any sport or competitive hobby. Some of us are willing to make the sacrifices to get to the top level of retriever trials. Others are satisfied with hunt test. I dont understand the resentment of the ht crowd when they try and compare ht to ft. *Once you have hunted witb a Field Champion you will understand that a jh just wont cut it*.


Just so I understand the premise of your writing... when you say hunted I'm going to assume you are talking about hunting "Upland" game..... and when you say JH I am going to again assume that you are refering to an AKC retrieving title. 
Is this the case in your analogy ?

john


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> As are CEOs, business tycoons, professional athletes, street bums, religious zealots, etc. etc., so what's your point?....you think you're normal and the rest of the world consists of odd balls....;-)


I'm not normal, we all know that.

But think about it this way...

How many folks running the Amatuer on Saturday would you invite to share a day in the duck blind with you?

Be honest. ;-)


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

john fallon said:


> Just so I understand the premise of your writing... when you say hunted I'm going to assume you are talking about hunting "Upland" game..... and when you say JH I am going to again assume that you are refering to an AKC retrieving title.
> Is this the case in your analogy ?
> 
> john


I had a dog retrieve a bird in water this after noon that I would have never attempted with a JH. I would not have had faith that I could have kept it out of the broken up ice and trying to cheat up onto ice that it likely couldn't have climbed out on to. I would have walked away thinking, better to lose a bird than drown a dog.

Too bad I don't have him steady to wing & shot.

PS: No he's not an FC, and for those who think I might believe a HT dog couldn't have safely made the retrieve, I would have attempted it with a MH. But a JH? No.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I'm not normal, we all know that.
> 
> But think about it this way...
> 
> ...


Well I gave up duck hunting when FC-AFC Trumarc's Ziparoo died but include among my pheasant hunting friends several who are, have been, or will be in the last series. I know quite a few (many?) non field trial folks who I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes with, somewhat like the general population. Much like every hobby there are likeable and not so likeable people involved, I don't think there are any more or less A holes than there are in most groups either at work or play.

And both you and I have our own detractors but I would be happy to share a duck blind or a CRP stand with you any time even though I know that I am normal and you.......well maybe not so much. ;-)


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Just where in this thread have people who participate in FT placed themselves on a pedestal?


Here's one:


MikeBoley said:


> Some of us are willing to make the sacrifices to get to the top level of retriever trials. Others are satisfied with hunt test. I dont understand the resentment of the ht crowd when they try and compare ht to ft. Once you have hunted witb a Field Champion you will understand that a jh just wont cut it.


Comparing an FC to a JH is just astonishingly ludicrous.

Over and above that, the thing that permeates this thread is the notion that performing to a standard is inferior to competing against other dogs/handlers. Things like "My dog did better work than the other dogs, but he got the same orange ribbon." Or "I won't settle for 'good enough,' I want the blue ribbon." Those statements reflect two sentiments. First, they attempt to assert that a competitive venue is inherently superior to a non-competitive venue, and second, they dismiss out of hand the time, effort, and energy put into training for and running dogs in hunt tests. I don't know if I'd characterize those attitudes as "putting one's self on a pedestal," but I would say they border on arrogance.

The bottom line for me is that you really can't compare hunt tests to field trials. They are fundamentally different events, with different rules, standards, and objectives. They require different skills and abilities on the part of the dogs, and different mind sets on the part of the handlers. The arguments will never end, but they are fundamentally comparing apples to oranges.

I won't take anything away from anyone because of the choices they make in this regard. To each his own, and I wish you all success in your chosen venue.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Buzz said:


> I had a dog retrieve a bird in water this after noon that I would have never attempted with a JH. I would not have had faith that I could have kept it out of the broken up ice and trying to cheat up onto ice that it likely couldn't have climbed out on to. I would have walked away thinking, better to lose a bird than drown a dog.
> 
> Too bad I don't have him steady to wing & shot.
> 
> PS: No he's not an FC, and for those who think I might believe a HT dog couldn't have safely made the retrieve, I would have attempted it with a MH. But a JH? No.


How about with a dog that has never run a HT or FT test in its life, but picks up 5/600 birds a year...........

john


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Wanting to be competitive at any venue requires money,time and sacrifice from the competitor.
And there is also politics at every aspect of life.
I am seeing all this for the first time as a Mom of a youth Hockey player.
I spend money,time and sacrifice only this time it isn't with a dog it's with my son.
Last yr. it was at the Junior High level of my daughter's BB team.
What did I do?
Got a 2nd job,balanced my time better,got recertified to coach and sacrificed my own things in place of my kids.
To each his/her own people.
Really it is.
Sue


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Doug wasn't comparing just pointing out to the earlier poster who claimed a JH is suitable for most hunters. Having trained a HRCH and an AFC I can attest that they both take time and sacrifice. Surely not even you will deny that AA field trials are the top level of Retreiver games. If that is arrogance so be it. I'm sure those obedience letters in front of your dogs name are harder to obtain than the ones behind it.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

john fallon said:


> How about with a dog that has never run a HT or FT test in its life, but picks up 5/600 birds a year...........
> 
> john



Unless said dog could handle really well, no.

And I know a few hard core hunters with such dogs that would agree with me. I've heard stories of dogs drowning in such situations and heard these guys state that they would walk away rather than chance drowning the dog.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Buzz said:


> Unless said dog could handle really well, no.
> 
> And I know a few hard core hunters with such dogs that would agree with me. I've heard stories of dogs drowning in such situations and heard these guys state that they would walk away rather than chance drowning the dog.


I not quite understanding this, are you handling your dog to a safe exit point or what?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

For the most part I thought this was a good thread with lots of posters answering the OP's question with good reasons why they did or did not run field trials. The jist I got was many field trialers are like me, they started in hunt test, enjoyed the sport, learning to train and advance their dogs, and at some point realized the spectacular dog work these amazing animals are capable of doing. For some of us after whitnessing a field trial or field trial training session, even Master HT wasn't enough, we had to try our hand at what we percieved to be the uppermost level of retrieverdom. Perhaps this perception stated out loud is what Red Devil percieves as an arrogant field trial attitude. Having run both venues, and having a huge respect for all who participate in hunt test venues, it just seems like the truth to me.

Many who don't run field trials posted reasons such as not being competitive by nature and realizing that they weren't prepared to make the huge sacrifice in time that is required. Those are excellent reasons that I can't argue with. As has been pointed out, we are lucky to have many retriever related venues to choose from, there is no one that is better than an other, but I would argue that competing successfully in field trials is the hardest.

John


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

It's real simple why some people like myself run Ft's they keep score!!
I used to fish professionally as a hobby before Ft's and tournaments got into each others way. Running trials I can train during the week and leave on Thursday night, when I fished it was at least a week or more away from work and home at a time, now it's just two weeks twice a year running nationals. Ft's are my stress reliever my break from the responsibilities of the real world. I just watched the movie Secritariat for the second time it reminds me a lot of what it takes to run Ft's if you haven't watched the movie please do, the sacrifices and commitments are great and only the people who are willing to make those choices are going to be succesful for a extended time in the Ft world. I trained everyday of this Holiday break with 3 dogs did I make any progress ? Grady got one nick in five days for not changing direction enough. Trav didn't get any collar corrections, he got a heeling stick swat for moving while a mark was going down. The youngster Coal had some attrition on a wb and a lb and showed some outstanding marking ability on some tough setups. Making progress with AA dogs is like watching paint dry and most people don't want to take the time and effort it requires to be succesful. 
When I go to a trial I expect to win, if I don't no one else will either. I have learned from many failures that tons of stuff can go wrong and I'm not going to win near as much as I'd like too. But I train myself and my dogs with the help of the handjem team to be prepared to the best of our abilities each time we go to a Ft. If your dog does a great job and wins the Ft I'll be the first person to shake your hand and tell you congrats then I'm going to tell you see you next week!
Not all people you meet at the Ft are that competitive but most are. 
Just a normal everyday group with a couple extra type A's mixed in!!
There is not a lot of middle ground in Ft's, you either like em or you don't!!!
But I'll never be one of those guys who never knows victory or defeat!!!!
Chad


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

mlp said:


> I know I'm not capable to train a dog for that level against a pro.


This is a concern of mine also...how do you amateurs get your dogs to the level where they can compete with pros? Is it mainly due to the dog's natural ability? I am asking this because i have considered running FTs with my dog at some point because of her breeding and ability. Not wanting to open a can of worms but I am curious...


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

mlopez said:


> I wish there were a derby category for dogs over 2.


I second that!!!


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

JustinS said:


> plus my heart races every time I go on line which I have a feeling messes with the dog a bit, which inturn messes with me more


I have the same problem and a friend gave me an awesome tip that seems to have worked.....chew SPEARMINT gum! I know, it sounds crazy but it hides your nervous scent so your dog can't smell it. While mine still gets cranked at the line I swear it's not as bad. Good luck!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

RxRatedLabs said:


> I have the same problem and a friend gave me an awesome tip that seems to have worked.....chew SPEARMINT gum! I know, it sounds crazy but it hides your nervous scent so your dog can't smell it. While mine still gets cranked at the line I swear it's not as bad. Good luck!



I doubt very much if there is any truth in that. From what I have read about dog's sense of smell, it's very different from ours. For example, when we walk in the door and a pot of chili is on the stove, we smell chili. When the dog comes in and smells the same pot of chili, they smell meat, beans, onions, cumin, etc. Think about it. Drug smugglers can wrap up and seal a bunch of heroin, put it into a gas tank, fill it up with gas, and guess what? A dog can smell it.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

RxRatedLabs said:


> I have the same problem and a friend gave me an awesome tip that seems to have worked.....chew SPEARMINT gum! I know, it sounds crazy but it hides your nervous scent so your dog can't smell it. While mine still gets cranked at the line I swear it's not as bad. Good luck!


I chew gum when going to the line to get rid of the cotton mouth! Have to wash the whistle tho, it always gets sticky.


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

MikeBoley said:


> Doug wasn't comparing just pointing out to the earlier poster who claimed a JH is suitable for most hunters. Having trained a HRCH and an AFC I can attest that they both take time and sacrifice. Surely not even you will deny that AA field trials are the top level of Retreiver games. If that is arrogance so be it. I'm sure those obedience letters in front of your dogs name are harder to obtain than the ones behind it.


Thanks for the clarification, Mike. I agree with you that a dog with a brand new JH isn't really suitable for anything but the simplest of real hunting scenarios. Real hunting demands a dog who can cover long distances, run down cripples, and handle accurately on blinds. Junior dogs generally aren't there, at least not until they've had a lot of time in the blind.

And nowhere have I ever said that field trials aren't the apex of retriever competition. What I said was that that you can't really compare them to hunt tests. Maybe that was too subtle...?

But AA dogs aren't necessarily great hunters either. I've had one personal experience hunting geese with an FC/AFC BLF. Epic fail: She utterly refused to deal with cripples. My HRCH/MH golden, on the other hand, is pure hell on wheels on cripples...they make his whole day. So do long retrieves: he ran 11 that were 400yds or longer last season, one right at a third of a mile. Some of those retrieves involved factors that AA dogs don't typically have to deal with at trials, such as crossing barbed wire fences, LCRA canals, and wild rose tangles. In those cases, the dog's ability to handle decision-making situations, on his own, at long distances, is way more important than running straight lines regardless of the factors.

So I guess you can't compare real hunting with either hunt tests or field trials. The skills required to do all 3 are related, for sure, but they're different.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

DougM said:


> Thanks for the clarification, Mike. I agree with you that a dog with a brand new JH isn't really suitable for anything but the simplest of real hunting scenarios. Real hunting demands a dog who can cover long distances, run down cripples, and handle accurately on blinds. Junior dogs generally aren't there, at least not until they've had a lot of time in the blind.
> 
> And nowhere have I ever said that field trials aren't the apex of retriever competition. What I said was that that you can't really compare them to hunt tests. Maybe that was too subtle...?
> 
> ...


Doug I believe that both hunt test and field trial dogs can make excellent hunters. I know because I have had both. I believe it takes three things to produce the best hunting dog:

1) Breeding, the dog has to possess the right combination of heart, nose, birdyness, athletic structure, and trainability needed to succeed as a hunter, hunt test or field trial dog.

2) Training at least to the Master Hunter or Qualifying FT level.

3) Lots of actual hunting experience.

I don't know if you meant it that way, but your line about FT dogs running straight lines regardless of factors versus the true hunting dog learning to handle decision making situations smacks a little of the _"field trail dogs are robots"_ argument some hunt testers make about FT dogs. Believe me the best field trial dogs are anything but robots and are the best due to their ability to use their head and make intelligent decisions as they run.

I hunt my field trail dogs every season starting when they are young. I can see how a titled field trial dog could suck at hunting if it had never hunted before. Like anything, dogs or people get better with real experience. No one ever said training for field trials, or hunt test for that matter completely prepares you or the dog for real hunting, only that it provides you and the dog the skills necessary to become great hunters with experience.

John


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Doug I believe that both hunt test and field trial dogs can make excellent hunters. I know because I have had both. I believe it takes three things to produce the best hunting dog:
> 
> 1) Breeding, the dog has to possess the right combination of heart, nose, birdyness, athletic structure, and trainability needed to succeed as a hunter, hunt test or field trial dog.
> 
> ...


Great post John, especially the bolded. Anyone who actually runs trials or even watches and admires, knows the intelligence and problem solving that is necessary to dig those tough birds out. With hunting, they just have to learn it's a different way of finding birds and they catch on. Actually, the neatest thing is watching the light bulb go on when they start hunting.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I don't know if you meant it that way, but your line about FT dogs running straight lines regardless of factors versus the true hunting dog learning to handle decision making situations smacks a little of the _"field trail dogs are robots"_ argument some hunt testers make about FT dogs. Believe me the best field trial dogs are anything but robots and are the best due to their ability to use their head and make intelligent decisions as they run.


John

Whenever I see or hear someone refer to Field Trial Dogs as robots lacking style, independence or intelligence, I know that they are speaking out of ignorance and have never seen a FT Competition

Ted


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> Doug I believe that both hunt test and field trial dogs can make excellent hunters. I know because I have had both. I believe it takes three things to produce the best hunting dog:
> 
> 1) Breeding, the dog has to possess the right combination of heart, nose, birdyness, athletic structure, and trainability needed to succeed as a hunter, hunt test or field trial dog.
> 
> ...


Very nice . A well stated / commom sense post on the topic, thank you.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

ErinsEdge said:


> Great post John, especially the bolded. Anyone who actually runs trials or even watches and admires, knows the intelligence and problem solving that is necessary to dig those tough birds out. They just have to learn it's a different way of finding birds and they catch on. Actually, the neatest thing is watching the light bulb go on when they start hunting.


I think you are wrong in these regards, working birds is a trait that dogs are born with, not one that is easily taught. I've seen countless well disciplined dogs that quarter beautifully and run by 80% of birds season after season never catching on.
You can take just about any dog to SD and eventually they will flush a bird and they will get better, but if you hunt with enough of them, you will realize that some are just superior. The one problem I see with the games are they are breeding for marking ability and training ability, not bird finding ability. If you want a great upland dog you have to breed for it, you can not simply train for it.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

mngundog said:


> The one problem I see with the games are they are breeding for marking ability and training ability, not bird finding ability. If you want a great upland dog you have to breed for it, you can not simply train for it.


I do breed and compete my own and the majority of my buyers are hunters, hardly any are trialers. Their feedback is what influences my direction. I sold a bitch to another breeder and they couldn't believe how she could dig birds out of big hedgerows and said she was the best dog they ever had. If anything, my dogs sometimes have is too much nose that sometimes gets them in trouble in competition. I don't want to lose that trait.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mngundog said:


> I think you are wrong in these regards, working birds is a trait that dogs are born with, not one that is easily taught. I've seen countless well disciplined dogs that quarter beautifully and run by 80% of birds season after season never catching on.
> You can take just about any dog to SD and eventually they will flush a bird and they will get better, but if you hunt with enough of them, you will realize that some are just superior. The one problem I see with the games are they are breeding for marking ability and training ability, not bird finding ability. If you want a great upland dog you have to breed for it, you can not simply train for it.


That was the whole intent of my post, it takes breeding, training and lots of real hunting experience. Eliminate any one component and the dog is not complete. 

By emphasizing upland work in your post, you do bring up a good point about the difference between what is required for a great upland dog versus a great waterfowl dog. It has been my experience that a well bred dog can become a great upland dog with little training but lots of hunting. I have seen the light bulb go off in a young dog's head after just a few times of picking up bird scent, following it up by instinct and curiosity, being surprised at the flush, then the shot from Mom or Dad and an impulsive retrieve of this fun surprise. After that happens just a few times, the dog becomes a hunter. To become that great upland dog will require lots of experience and intelligence for the dog to learn how birds think, hide and move, when they learn all that they are a joy to hunt over, but the dog can be an adequate hunter in pretty short order.

On the other hand the complete waterfowl dog takes a lot more training coupled with actual hunting experience. I have a friend who's yellow lab has turned into a fantastic upland dog with little training, in the marsh his dog is terrible. He doesn't mark well, is figgity in the blind and can't handle on a blind retrieve. This guy loves to duck hunt but is too busy to train and it shows.

John


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

ErinsEdge said:


> I do breed and compete my own and the majority of my buyers are hunters, hardly any are trialers. Their feedback is what influences my direction. I sold a bitch to another breeder and they couldn't believe how she could dig birds out of big hedgerows and said she was the best dog they ever had. If anything, my dogs sometimes have is too much nose that sometimes gets them in trouble in competition. I don't want to lose that trait.


I guess maybe I should have high lighted the post above yours that said:


> No one ever said training for field trials, or hunt test for that matter completely prepares you or the dog for real hunting, only that it provides you and the dog the skills necessary to become great hunters with experience.


I believe the training provides nice skills, however if you want a great "upland dog", you actually have to breed for just that, or hope you just get lucky with one. You can't train a dog to be a great bird finder they either have it or they don't.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mngundog said:


> I guess maybe I should have high lighted the post above yours that said:
> 
> I believe the training provides nice skills, however if you want a great "upland dog", you actually have to breed for just that, or hope you just get lucky with one. You can't train a dog to be a great bird finder they either have it or they don't.


Ok; but in reading Nancy's post about the light bulb going off when they hunt, I think you guy's are saying the same thing. Breeding is very important, and with an upland dog may be all you need, but adding good training to the formula can't hurt.

John


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> Ok; but in reading Nancy's post about the light bulb going off when they hunt, I think you guy's are saying the same thing. Breeding is very important, and with an upland dog may be all you need, but adding good training to the formula can't hurt.
> 
> John


I completely agree, thats why I came here. The thing that most good upland dogs are missing is good training.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I don't introduce my dogs to birds until they are forcebroke. Many reasons the formost I don't want to "chase" them around the bag forty trying to get a bird off them. Having said that without exception all the Goldens and Labs that I have started ,field bred, have never had a problem hunting, birdiness nor finding birds without exception. I believe the birdiness is bred into dog. Down the road other issues for future venues become more important. Thats why you have gundogs, hunt test dogs and trial dogs. Without exception all the dogs, scores of them, have become good to excellent upland hunting dogs.

Somebody woke me up today?


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I'm not normal, we all know that.
> 
> But think about it this way...
> 
> ...


SOMEWHERE AROUND 10-15


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> Doug I believe that both hunt test and field trial dogs can make excellent hunters. I know because I have had both. I believe it takes three things to produce the best hunting dog:
> 
> 1) Breeding, the dog has to possess the right combination of heart, nose, birdyness, athletic structure, and trainability needed to succeed as a hunter, hunt test or field trial dog.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, John, and I agree more or less completely. However, my point in making that statement was based on what I've seen at the field trials I've worked at and watched, as well as more than a few posts made here.

Example post: A few weeks back, someone posted a question as to why a dog that 2-whistled a long, difficult blind at (?) an Amateur AA stake would be dropped. A respondent posted a picture of a banana, and several agreement-type posts followed. The clear implication was that any path deviating significantly from a straight line could be justification for not making the call-backs.

Example observation: I watched part of an Amateur AA stake at Mike Kammerer's place about 3-4 years ago. The dead-straight line to one of the marks just barely nicked the water at the base of a point that the dog had to cross at an angle after a ~150yd approach. I watched maybe 30 dogs run the marks, and the only dog who drew applause from the gallery was the one dog that held the line and nicked the water instead of deviating the 3 feet or so to the left that would have kept him dry to the point, as did all of the other dogs. A lot of those other dogs hammered the marks, but the one who held the absolute line was the only one the gallery felt deserving of applause.

I've said that I don't run field trials, but I've been to a bunch of them. I know better than to claim that trial dogs are robots because (as I've also said) I am in awe of the things I've watched trial dogs do...and robots don't awe me. But at the same time, I know that a significant amount of weight is put on a dog's ability to run straight lines at trials, be they marks or blinds. Now that may only really come into play when the judges are trying to get separation in a large field of superb dogs, and that's fair enough. Trials are different events than tests.

You are absolutely dead right about the necessity of actual hunting experience in developing a great hunting dog, no matter what venue the dog was formally trained for. 'Nuff said.

Finally, the points that you wrapped up under the category of breeding are spot on, and I'll add one more: water attitude. I've raised or helped raise more than a few litters of goldens and labs, most from FT or other performance backgrounds, and I'm absolutely convinced that there is a genetic component to how dogs deal with water. Being an unabashed golden person, I understand that particular issue with brutal clarity. ;-)


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Chad Baker said:


> When I go to a trial I expect to win, if I don't no one else will either. I have learned from many failures that tons of stuff can go wrong and I'm not going to win near as much as I'd like too. But I train myself and my dogs with the help of the handjem team to be prepared to the best of our abilities each time we go to a Ft. If your dog does a great job and wins the Ft I'll be the first person to shake your hand and tell you congrats then I'm going to tell you see you next week!
> Not all people you meet at the Ft are that competitive but most are.
> Just a normal everyday group with a couple extra type A's mixed in!!
> There is not a lot of middle ground in Ft's, you either like em or you don't!!!
> ...


This is a great post! Thanks Chad. I especially love the part that I highlighted. You can't win big if you are never prepared to lose big too. 

On a different note: someone seconded my thought on a derby category for dogs over two. I swear, if you made it an amateur only division, I think you could get many more new people willing to start trying FTs. Amateurs can get to the derby level, and beyond (obviously), but it might take some of us a little bit longer. How do I lobby AKC??


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

To like FTs, you have to like competition. Some folks who do also like dogs, some don't really and treat them as a means to self-aggrandizement.

Some folks think competition brings out character, but sometimes the character it reveals is "Win, cheat, or quit" - a true loser all three ways.

Some folks who like dogs and competition are good sports. They'll beat your dog fair and square or be the first to shake your hand if you turn those tables. They're the ones I like to meet from time to time, especially the top trainers amongst them, amateur or pro. The best of those trainers are amazing.

I love the dogs, I respect the best competitors - not necessarily winningest - but for me, competition just doesn't grease my crank and I don't enjoy training on the bare ground extreme distances, etc. If I was winning an Open against a nice struggling beginner, I'd be inclined to pet the dog at the line as I took the last bird... ;-)

I'm not in it for ribbons.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Some peoples stiffest competition is themselves.


How true!

Not myself, I constantly compare my accomplishments to others and I find a way to match or exceed their achievement- it may take me a while but I usually find a way.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Keith Stroyan said:


> To like FTs, you have to like competition. Some folks who do also like dogs, some don't really and treat them as a means to self-aggrandizement.


Keith, I don't believe anyone who doesn't like dogs is going to be very successful in ANY competitive dog event. It just takes too much investment in time and emotional energy to stick with it long enough if you don't really like the work.



Keith Stroyan said:


> Some folks who like dogs and competition are good sports. They'll beat your dog fair and square or be the first to shake your hand if you turn those tables. They're the ones I like to meet from time to time, especially the top trainers amongst them, amateur or pro.


This describes the GREAT MAJORITY of Field Trial folks I have met, contrary to the popularly perpetuated myth.

YMMV

JS


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Keith Stroyan said:


> To like FTs, you have to like competition. Some folks who do also like dogs, some don't really and treat them as a means to self-aggrandizement.
> 
> Some folks think competition brings out character, but sometimes the character it reveals is *"Win, cheat, or quit"* - a true loser all three ways.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm going to have to change my signature. I thought it was an obvious joke. Apparently not.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

RxRatedLabs said:


> This is a concern of mine also...how do you amateurs get your dogs to the level where they can compete with pros? Is it mainly due to the dog's natural ability? I am asking this because i have considered running FTs with my dog at some point because of her breeding and ability. Not wanting to open a can of worms but I am curious...


It is tough to compete against the top trainers, whether am or pro.
*But it can, has been & is being done, by working stiff people with families.*
It comes down to how much you want it, how patient you are to get there, & a little good fortune to have the lifestyle to accomidate it.
If the whole point is having an FC, then you might be in it for the wrong reasons.
Watch the Pro's & Am's. Learn from the best handlers good & bad decisions. Be at field trials. Put your time in. Have a well bred dog. You learn more through advancing a dog, than you do from fixing weaknesses in a dog not meant to do the work. 
*Have an experienced mentor.*
Have good quality resources. (ybs media)
Have goals that are realistic.
Enjoy the qualifying stake, and learn the difference between trials & training there.
Amatuers have advantages over pro's that rarely get mentioned. They are big advantages for the hard working amatuer, who has an intimate rapport with his/her dog. That alone is the biggest bullet. There are other advantages. ie time to focus on the needs of one dog, as opposed to 20 or 25.
The biggest difference, between Pro's and Am's in competition is line standards. You can steal that knowledge by paying close attention to them at trials.
I do.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Scott Adams said:


> It is tough to compete against the top trainers, whether am or pro.
> *But it can, has been & is being done, by working stiff people with families.*
> It comes down to how much you want it, how patient you are to get there, & a little good fortune to have the lifestyle to accomidate it.
> If the whole point is having an FC, then you might be in it for the wrong reasons.
> ...


Some of the best points I have ever read on RTF.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Charles C. said:


> I guess I'm going to have to change my signature. I thought it was an obvious joke. Apparently not.


It is obviously a joke (even if the original quote was 'saltier') but apparently that doesn't stop folks from using it to make themselves feel better about their preconceived notions about field trialers.


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