# MH title: Does it really matter?



## Josh Smith (May 22, 2008)

Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner? 

I can breed my dog to a MH for $500-900.00 or I can breed to an AFC, an FC, or an FC AFC for $500-900.00. 

I can buy a puppy out of a MH for $500-900.00 or I can buy a puppy out of an FC AFC for $500-900.00.

Some hunt test people take themselves way too seriously and they usually know a lot less than they think they do.

Judges often do not know what they are setting up or what they are looking for in a test. They'll make a big issue out of the color of a shirt, hat, or gloves and then set a test where the wind gives up all the birds. Then they'll throw a bunch of breaking birds to get the Pass % down to an acceptable number because the marks and blinds did not eliminate many dogs.

Hunt test should be easier so that owners can get their ribbons, dogs can get their titles, and handlers can socialize at the club steak fry (instead of running until 9pm).

If owners want more of a challenge, they can run a Q somewhere.

JS


----------



## Russell Archer (Jul 8, 2004)

Josh Smith said:


> Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner?
> 
> 
> I can buy a puppy out of a MH for $500-900.00 or I can buy a puppy out of an FC AFC for $500-900.00.
> ...



When you say "out of" I assume you are talking about the sire because, I don't think you could buy a pup with the bitch being a AFC or FC for $500-900.00. Having said this..I will stay out of the fireworks to come.


----------



## mudflapimmc (Feb 28, 2008)

Maybe we should not even test the dogs and give them titles as puppies..... Those who have titled their dogs know that they are not given away, they are earned!


----------



## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Yawnnnn....


----------



## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, if you are breeding to letters, then I guess it would matter.
So many more things go into a _good_ breeding than just the letters.


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

Josh you obviously don't know to much about master test. True there are some master test you go to and the judges don't know that they are giving the birds away by the wind but those are few and far between! How about you take your FT dog and try to sit down at a bucket with birds flying, duck calls, and a gun going off right next to his head in an HRC test. Don't down grade some of they're dogs for your lack of understanding. 

A good Master dog can go hang in a Q any day of the week. Same exact concepts are shown. 

Another thing how bout you run your FT dog on blinds that have suction from other marks they just picked up? That's right in FT your marks and blinds are not done together therefor eleminating those factors!

I'm currently working on my dogs MH title he's 4-5 now and i will be running Q's in the spring with him. Hope i see you at the line.

Both HT and FT dogs are great in their own aspects


----------



## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

I have only trained the dog I currenty have and am very proud of Deuce's SH let alone a MH. Maybe they are only for the owners, but I really enjoy hunt tests and the people who attend. To each is own........You do what you like and I will do what I like!


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Trykon said:


> Another thing how bout you run your FT dog on blinds that have suction from other marks they just picked up? That's right in FT your marks and blinds are not done together therefor eleminating those factors!


????? Yeah, those field trial dogs couldn't handle blinds with any kind of suction invovled.


----------



## TuffnufOutdoors (Apr 29, 2008)

I think it is a little early for me to chime in since I am new to the board but after trying to begin training a dog to retrieve enough to hunt this fall and the obstacles there. Then watching those hunt test I don't believe anyone should take credit away from the dog or the trainer for the work that goes into (I imagine) to even get close to that type of discipline.


----------



## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

I don't think he's saying he has a FT dog.......obviously not per the quote above.
LM


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Josh Smith said:


> Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner?
> 
> I can breed my dog to a MH for $500-900.00 or I can breed to an AFC, an FC, or an FC AFC for $500-900.00.
> JS


Yes, they matter especially to the minority breeds. Goldens, CBRs, Flat Coats, IWS, Tollers, etc don't have the depth of FC's and AFC's to use in breeding proven retrieving dogs. The HT titles function as measure of ability that these breeds need to improve their gene pools. 
I have seen this personally with CBRs over the last 2 decades and I really don't think a Flat Coat FT Speciality would exist without them.

Tim


----------



## mudflapimmc (Feb 28, 2008)

Mark Jones said:


> Oh wow. Another elitist opinionated asshat thinks that only FC AFC dogs are worthy! Are those FT titles really necessary? Tell me exactly what a Q "title" means in the FT world, Mr. Smith?
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you know far less than you think you do.
> 
> Some internet goobs take themselves way too seriously too, Mr. Smith. And you're a poor representative of the FT crowd. You don't have a lot of friends either, do you?


 NOW THATS FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

FTs and HTs aren't the same (Pros and high school). I know, "Thank you Captain Obvious", but obvious that needs to be said again. Nothing against either. Whatever you like. I do have a serious question though. Where are you finding a pup from a FC AFC dog that cheap? You're talking about him breeding to a dog without any pedigree from the dam. I just paid $1,850 for my pup. H#ll, you can go upwards to $5K for them. Again, I'd love to hear your "Logic" on this one.


----------



## Joe Martin (Feb 1, 2006)

Trykon said:


> Another thing how bout you run your FT dog on blinds that have suction from other marks they just picked up? That's right in FT your marks and blinds are not done together therefor eleminating those factors!


Boy, you must not have watched many field trials! I was planting the blind last September in Open. I sat on a bird crate full of live birds where the flyer station had been for the earlier series, in full view of the line and planted the blind 10 yards to my left - I've sat in a boat at waters edge 80 yards from the line and thrown a dead bird on shore - the working dog ran a line to the blind 10 yards in back of the boat an additional 100 yards to the bird. 

HTs and FTs are just different games, but are fun and both let you see good dog work.

Joe


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Thats just great. After getting our JH in 4x4 I learned that wasn't worth squat. Now I have wasted a year of our time working our butts off to try to get through a senior test. Oh well, just stubborn I guess, but the time and effort in the training is what its all about to me. My dog doesn't _*NEED*_ a title to show his value, I need it to see if we are making progress.


----------



## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

SLICK said:


> I do have a serious question though. Where are you finding a pup from an FC AFC dog that cheap? You're talking about him breeding to a dog without any pedigree from the dam. I just paid $1,850 for my pup. H#ll, you can go upwards to $5K for them. Again, I'd love to hear your "Logic" on this one.


IMO the breeder is the fool to be selling their stud fees or pups at that low of a price if they've got all the health clearances and titles with any depth at all-- on both the parents. To each their own on what titles are most important, but I personally like to think that everything the breeder adds to the pedigree should be worth a bit extra to the buyer, especially if the breeding really compliments the bitch line. I'd not put 2 polar opposites together and expect much though!


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I agree with you. I have no clue how any breeder could justify a litter from a FC-AFC dog being that cheap. Then again, I wouldn't breed a FC-AFC dog to anything other than that or better. That's just me though.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Is it a full moon?  This thread should have GDG on it.


----------



## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

Josh Smith said:


> Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner?
> 
> I can breed my dog to a MH for $500-900.00 or I can breed to an AFC, an FC, or an FC AFC for $500-900.00.
> 
> ...


Based on your logic, should hunt test dogs be bred at all? 

There are not enough dogs, I don't think, in trials alone to support the puppy market even just for trial dogs. Many trial bitches aren't bred for years because they are too busy running.

I think the master title matters simply as a gauge to know the dog can perform what is required of the master test -- most of which are good tests, with a few off the scale being too easy or irrational as you mentioned.

One of my (worthless???) master dogs produced a national champion. I think it comes down to pedigree being as important as anything the dog has done or accomplished. What the dog has accomplished, whether HT or FT, is simply validation on top of what you might consider a good pedigree... If I see a bitch with a great pedigree, I'd want to see that she has a master hunter, qaa or some performance validation before I'd get a pup out of her in most cases. That's one thing an MH is good for...

-K


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Dear god. Get over your lil rant. You don't even have a grasp of The English Language yet.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Somebody go off their meds today?:roll:


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Maybe another troll.


----------



## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Did suzq develop another alter ego????

(I do agree with Kristie - the MH on a bitch shows that she is at least pretty darned trainable)

Fat-free cottage cheese regards,

Sondra


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

champ said:


> You just about right. I have seen some of the worst dog work at a "Masterbater test" There queers, and they should stay in there corner!


So your dog is running where next? I'm sure we can put a cheering section together for ya. Might be interesting.

Mac


----------



## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Poor Josh - it appears that you are just as bad as those poor HT people who are not as smart as they think they are. Come back when you grow up and get rid of that 'superior' attitude. There are people on this Forum who could chew you up and spit you out in a heart beat but are too busy contributing good things to this sport.


----------



## Loren Crannell (Apr 12, 2008)

From a person who just bought a puppy, I do think that titles do matter. I want the female to have a MH title to another MH or FC. To get a FT title requires a ridiculous amount of time and money on behalf of the owner. There are a lot of quality dogs that have MH titles that are worth every penny on the breeding front.

I bought a Cosmo dog to a MNH female. No shame that she's a HT test dog. 

I would rather buy a dog from somebody who is truly dedicated to training their dog than not. So yes, titles (HT or FT) do matter from that point of view. It's not to say there are untitled dogs who are not capable, but cash is cash and I don't have a ton of it. So the pedigree is all that I have unless you are shooting next to me and I see your dog fetch up every duck you shoot.

Here is my opinion on the whole FT vs HT debate. I am a person who just got into the sport three years ago. If you trained your dog to a HT/FT title you have shown your dedication to the dog and in yourself. We are all doing the same thing in training great dogs to do great things.


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I know titled FT dogs that I would not be dying to get a puppy from, sure there are HT bitches that I would.

Kristie pointed out Nellie, 2 of the finest dogs I have had the pleasure to see, Ezra and the wonderful Chica, were from a HT Mom.

It's all about which dog, not which venue.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Mark Jones said:


> Oh wow. Another elitist opinionated asshat thinks that only FC AFC dogs are worthy! Are those FT titles really necessary? Tell me exactly what a Q "title" means in the FT world, Mr. Smith?
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you know far less than you think you do.
> 
> Some internet goobs take themselves way too seriously too, Mr. Smith. And you're a poor representative of the FT crowd. You don't have a lot of friends either, do you?


Rather than you posting a blatant personal attack against the writer for expressing his opinion. The board would be better served if you were to factually rebut his position.

Point, counterpoint regards.

john


----------



## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

I don't think the price of a puppy is indicative of anything, other than what the market will bare and how monetarily driven a particular breeder might be, or how much bragging rights a buyer wants to have in saying how expensive his puppy was. Are some litters worth more than others? Oh yes, but not every puppy out of a litter will become an FC or an AFC or even an MH for that matter. There are some puppies in even the best field line breedings that won't be anything more than just a good dog for an active family. Should that pup be worth $3,500 or more just because of the titles that it came out of? Well, we all know there are people out there that only buy labels in other markets, so I'm sure it applies in this market as well. Their pup may not be worth a dime in talent and skill, but Oh Boy, look at that pedigree!!

There are many venues that people can enter for a working retriever. Is one venue any less important than another? I don't think so. Only a snob would tell you so, because he has to have something better than the next guy to make his own ego better for himself. That is the basics of it. They just have to top the next guy. The results, unfortunately, can be that the poor dogs, in order to satisfy better and better, will run until they drop DEAD. When is enough, enough!

Titles are important in any venue to prove the trainability and skills and talents of particular dogs. And in general, those traits are passed on, but not always due to the many factors involved in temperment, personality, genetics, environment, etc etc. 

We breed only one or two litters a year, usually one Lab litter and one golden litter. This year only one lab litter. I will tell you right now, I would sell a pup for less money if I thought it was going into a competition home and I have. In fact, a breeding we had a year ago from an FC AFC sire and an MH dam produced a pup that had its started hunter title at 7 1/2 months of age. Unfortunately, due to an unforseen accident, that pup died. We felt so badly for the people that had him, we gave them a pup from our last breeding this year for just the shipping charges. We knew this was a competition home that a pup would be good in. A better home and environment would be pretty hard to come by. 

It needs to be about the dogs, not the egos and the dollars. Would I spend $3,500 and up for a puppy and then run its legs off till it drops dead. I think this is sort of where this sport will be going if we don't stop somewhere soon.

Arleen


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Um, you're buying the pedigree. No matter if you look @ it or not, you're buying the pedigree. That would be why you buy from 1 litter and not the other. To say otherwise is outlandishly inaccurate.


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Newbies or not, please stop the personal attacks. Respect for each other, whether FT or HT, should be paramount with all that love retrievers!


----------



## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

Of course a MH matters............

I am sure that we could all agree that there may a wide range of dogs who attain the MH title, but it is still an accomplishment.

I am running a neutered male in MH now, but I do understand that the normal person (I am not normal) may be considering breeding down the line. I would much rather see a MH behind the dogs name and take out the guessing. You know that this dog can run a triple and do a blind under diversion. It may have took 15 times to get that MH but that is better than buying a pup from a dog that will not pick up a stick.

Let me know the FC to FC breeding that you find for $900 and go ahead and just reserve a pup for Nathan Arnold, haha.


That's all folks,


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I am quite sure everyone on this board would like to buy a puppy who has all the top and bottom ancestors with a FC or AFC. I have never even seen a pedigree this strong but can promise the puppies would cost more than I could afford. By the same line of "logic" these are the only puppies these "elitists" would buy. If you wouldn't have hunt test titles in a pedigree a brood bitch would be even worse. By this same way of thinking with my hunt test dog I should either breed for color or money because the performance is immaterial. As I have a black bitch I guess I should find a poodle and raise labradoodles. Idiots who buy these will be impressed by any letters and will pay double the price of a well bred lab puppy.

I think that is a big stinking pile. 

By the same logic only the best trainers should be allowed to train dogs. That means you and I should get out of the game because we have never put a FC or AFC on a dog. If you don't have the money to send a dog to the very best then buy one of my labradoodles and cuddle with him at home. 

And while we are following this misty eyed path to perfection give up your hunting license until you can consistantly shoot in the high 90's in a round of sporting clays. If you didn't place in the World Duck calling contest in Stuttgart give up your calls or shove the one you have up your........nevermind. Maybe this rant got carried away a little but I dearly love the hunt test game. I not my dog don't have the ability to compete at field trials.


"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you meant what you just said" William F. Buckley

Mark L.


----------



## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Trykon said:


> A good Master dog can go hang in a Q any day of the week. Same exact concepts are shown.


All field trial stakes are run to find a winner. An owner and/or handler can take pride in their performance regardless of placements. As is true with hunt tests. To imply that a master stake is the same as a qualifying stake is a very bad comparison. They are not equivalent. This mindset has harmed hunt tests. Why try to turn something into something it isn't? I understand that people want to continually challenge themselves. People feel great after they pass their first hunt test. This continues with the first title, and the higher stake passes and titles, etc. Eventually, they might reach the highest level. That is a great accomplishment. How does saying your master dog is as good as a dog that wins a qualifying stake make you feel good? You are saying my major league hunt test dog is as good as a minor league field trial dog? Can your dog be that good? No one will know until you run them in that stake! 

In my eye, saying my HT dog is as good as a dog that has won a qualifying stake even though I have never run my dog in a qualifying stake just demeans the accomplishments of that dog/handler/trainer. The two games aren't the same. That doesn't mean one is inferior to the other. But, they are apples and oranges.

Tom


----------



## PWK (Oct 29, 2003)

It matters to the owner/ handler and the dog in that they get to spend time together with wonderful people who have the same interest and get to pick up birds and get to have an enjoyable weekend.It is you that does not matter .At least not to them.If you look at the pedigrees you will find that there is not to much difference between HT and FT dogs .It's all about how you wish to play games with your dog.Play the game you like, but don't rain on my parade.There is room for both.The most important participant could care less as long as he or she gets the bird.I'ts all about the time spent with ones dog.

Don't miss the big picture.
Pete


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

To Josh Smith,

Welcome to RTF!

I am not sure exactly what your goal was in this thread, but it is quite obvious that PWK nailed the answer to your subject line question.

My belief is that your true intent was a greater "pot stirring" attack against those whose dog game is not in line with what your perception would be of fully worthy.

There are multiple personal attacks in this thread that show the unfortunate tendency for folks who I believe are well-intentioned, to grab silly bait and run with it until the hook is set for the inevitable personal attack debate.

Josh, run what makes you happy. In the meantime, please do not begrudge those who run something else.

This is a group warning to drop the personal attacks.

Anyone who has issued a personal attack in this thread, and follows through with more will be blocked from further RTF posting.

Clear? Thanks.

Chris


----------



## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

The thing is, is that, for the average joe and hunter the HT crowd would probably be the best fit for them. Rarely when I hunt do I see a downed bird at three hundred plus yards. That being said I give all the credit to the trainers that can have a dog consistantly do this. I have also seen dogs with the FC in front of their name not get thru the first series of a master test. Not saying they couldn't do it just that day they couldn't. I know that my girl and I just went four for four on our senior tests this spring and we are still a ways off for consistent master work. I think if you are will to put the time in the FC AFC JH SH MH are all worth time and effort.


----------



## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Is it sad when you spend more time and money on your dogs than your wife? 

No. But sooner or later you will.


----------



## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

I know it and I'm also proud for it!!!!!!


----------



## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

In reference to Scott G. post. There are alot of "Good Ole Boys" at these test. Ran our first one about three years ago. We have made some wonderful friends, I've been on some awesome hunts, and we have two different training groups. All because of the people that we have met at test. I'm sure field trials are the same and this may be a little off topic. Anyway just got me thinking


----------



## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

The most important thing in whatever venue you play in was taught to me by my favorite pro - Rick Milhiem. You must and I say must do this in order to remain in this sport whether FT or hunt test. Without it you won't last long.







"SPOUSAL MAINTENANCE" 


I'M TELLING YOU YOUR DEAD WITHOUT THIS AND IT IS REQUIRED IN ALL VENUES.


----------



## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

I just want to know who these FC/AFC stud dogs with the $500 stud fee are.

Bargin Hunting Regards,

Laura


----------



## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Josh Smith said:


> Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner?


Yes. They demonstrate a dog has a certain level of talent and trainability. Some of the best hunting dogs I have hunted with would have a hard time passing a SH because they are not trained and you have no way of knowing without testing. I want to know more than its "a great hunting dog".
Also, hunt tests feed the FT community with clubs, workers, and more folks interested in dogs. Don't misunderestimate the value of HT folks to field trials.


Josh Smith said:


> I can breed my dog to a MH for $500-900.00 or I can breed to an AFC, an FC, or an FC AFC for $500-900.00.
> 
> I can buy a puppy out of a MH for $500-900.00 or I can buy a puppy out of an FC AFC for $500-900.00.


What ever you choose.


Josh Smith said:


> Some hunt test people take themselves way too seriously and they usually know a lot less than they think they do.


This statement does not only apply to "hunt test people".


Josh Smith said:


> Judges often do not know what they are setting up or what they are looking for in a test. They'll make a big issue out of the color of a shirt, hat, or gloves and then set a test where the wind gives up all the birds. Then they'll throw a bunch of breaking birds to get the Pass % down to an acceptable number because the marks and blinds did not eliminate many dogs.


I disagree. I am sure there are some but none that I have judged with.


Josh Smith said:


> Hunt test should be easier so that owners can get their ribbons, dogs can get their titles, and handlers can socialize at the club steak fry (instead of running until 9pm).


I do believe that there are folks out there that believe this statement about ribbons and titles. I do not think this is a large percentage of participants and I think the percentage of folks goes down as the tile level goes up. HT people also need to eat like everyone else.


Josh Smith said:


> If owners want more of a challenge, they can run a Q somewhere.


Yes, and they should.


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Josh Smith said:


> Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner?
> 
> I can breed my dog to a MH for $500-900.00 or I can breed to an AFC, an FC, or an FC AFC for $500-900.00.
> 
> ...


1) A search on Entry Express finds no Josh Smith and one Joshua Smith who has entered a grand total of 3 junior hunt tests. I have no idea if that is you or not, but apparently you are not an active field trial participant unless you are not posting under your real name. No, I don't use my real name as my handle, but I've used it in some posts, virtually all PM's and it is easily ascertained by a review of some of my posts, so no need to throw the anonymity thing in my face.

2) Does attempting to belittle the efforts and achievements of others make you feel better?

3) Do hunt test titles matter to anyone besides the owner? It probably doesn't matter as much to anyone else as it does to the owner because the owner knows what it took to achieve it and has the memories of seeing the dog progress and achieve. I would not claim that a MH or HRCH or GRHRCH equates to any kind of field trial title, but the same could be said for field trial titles (that it means most to the owner). Ask a guy who just put an FC or AFC before his dog's name and he is likely a little more impressed by it than anyone else...and he should be. He knows what it took to make it happen. He believed in the dog and did what was necessary in terms of time and money and effort to make it happen. Now that we have established that ALL titles probably matter more to the owner than anyone else, does a MH matter to ANYONE besides the owner? Considering what you can sell a MH for, I would say yes. I understand that it is far less than what you can sell an AFC or FC for, but it is still more than 99.99% of people would ever pay for a dog. Lastly on the value topic, I would add that things like hunt test titles and yes, even field trial titles only have value as long as there are enough people who agree that they have value. I can remember many years ago when I learned that my father had paid in excess of $100,000 for a bull. Naturally it was a registered pure bred animal, but it only had that kind of value because people agreed that it did and because people were willing to pay high fees to breed their cows to him and high prices for his offspring. I remember thinking, holy cow (pun intended), all of these breeders of registered polled herefords are propping up this artificial market (because they all agree that these animals have an artificially high value and they all continue to buy from each other and breed to each others animals) and I remember thinking that if things got tough and this artificial market took a hit then this bull was worth the price of beef. What we pay for well bred retrievers and titled retrievers is really no different. The field trial and hunt test worlds are really fairly small and we place a value on these animals (at least some of us do), but the rest of the world would think we are nuts for what some of us pay for puppies or adult dogs or for the money that we put into them.

4) You sound all high and mighty talking about what other people don't know and suggest that if someone wants a real challenge they should go run a Q. It sounds like you think a Q is a big deal. When you are tempted to look down on others, it might be a good idea to remember that there is ALWAYS someone in a position to look down on you and your pursuits/achievements. While you are running the Q and trying to get AAQ, the folks running all age stakes can look down on you. When you are running all ages stakes, the folks with AFC's or FC's can look down on you. If you have an AFC or FC (which I doubt) then folks with a NAFC or an NFC can look down on you if they so choose. And the guy with 2 x NAFC or 2 x NFC can look down on them. It just goes on and on. If you have reached the pinnacle of retriever sports, you better look out, because the guy who just won the Kentucky Derby or the Breeders Cup may be looking down on you.

Enjoying the game I play and respecting others regards.


----------



## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Josh Smith said:


> Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner?
> 
> I can breed my dog to a MH for $500-900.00 or I can breed to an AFC, an FC, or an FC AFC for $500-900.00.
> 
> ...


Just where in the H### do you come off? You have got some real big huevos coming on and for your 8th post you bash the hunt test people? WOW.......................


----------



## KatexAnnie (Feb 21, 2008)

Billie said:


> Just where in the H### do you come off? You have got some real big huevos coming on and for your 8th post you bash the hunt test people? WOW.......................


I agree, my dad and I want to run some of some those. And coming from a 15 year old, what you said hurts.


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

KatexAnnie said:


> I agree, my dad and I want to run some of these. And what you said hurts.


Why should you be hurt by what some...uh...er...trying not to piss off Chris and get banned...person hiding behind a keyboard says? You don't even know if the...uh...er, gee Chris this really is hard...person has ever trained a dog. If it looks like fun to you then dive in and have at it. The first time your dog fails, now THAT hurts.


----------



## Roughriding Woody (Jul 20, 2005)

I can care less about Josh Smith and his comments! I have fun regardless if it is a HT or a future FT.


----------



## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

GO WOODY! A big ditto.

WOW- this thread is hilarious. A great topic for a poll. 

How many HT dogs have gone on to earn FC/or AFCs.

In my opinion (not worth much to anyone but me), HTs vs FTs is like softball vs baseball; same fundamentals, different game.

I choose to hunt test with WELL BRED FT pups. No need to explain why, for the folks that have a clue, need no explanation. 

Being a full-time high school football/baseball coach (little $) that works 80+hrs/week during season (7 months/yr), I only have the opportunity to run my pups in 3 or 4 hunt tests per year. Yes, I am incredibly proud of my HRCHs/MHs, with 95 percent of the training done by your's truly.

Sunday afternoon title runs sure make the wagon wheels, swim-bys, and Double TTs in the dark, seem well worth the effort. 

Being one of the few, and at times only, amateur still playing on Sunday brings a pride that our newly established antagonist can't take away. 

A few years ago, I bred one of those lowly "gimme" titled MH bitches to a high powered "real deal" FC/AFC, and sold 8 pups to trial homes. Dang, that little bitch whelped what would become 2 FIELD CHAMPIONS, and 2 QAA pups!!! Not to mention the silly HRCH/MHs. (Kristi, Nellies NAFC makes the breeding HT crowd incredibly proud of you and Joie). 

Oh, and one of the FCs was trained from start to finish by a former Hunt Test pro, Charlie Moody, now considered one of the finest, hardest working field trial pros in the Southeast. 

I bet if Charlie read this thread, he'd probably smile, and without any lack of confidence, walk right up to the line at the 2008 National Open in November, with of all things; a $900 discount pup out of a Master Hunter.


----------



## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

HuntinDawg, what a LONG but awesome post. David M, I too work very long hours, I'm still smiling at what you've done with your dogs!!!


----------



## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

champ said:


> You just about right. I have seen some of the worst dog work at a "Masterbater test" There queers, and they should stay in there corner!


I think SuziQ is baaack..... Whats you problem pal?


----------



## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

I agree. And whoever this person (persons) are they are getting exactly what they wanted - the RTFers all pi$$ed off.

Let's just ignore these silly attacks and keep talking about dogs, training and our wonderful sport.

I think a similar thing has happened on another forum!! Let's stop feeding their fire.

LL


----------



## Josh Smith (May 22, 2008)

Yes, you are right about this. Thanks for your point of view.
JS


----------



## Josh Smith (May 22, 2008)

Yes, I bred to a black AFC for a $450.00 stud fee and again to a yellow AFC for $400.00. The puppies sold for $500.00. I bought a black female out of an NFC for $1000.00 and she is a great pup. 

I paid $2000.00 for a chavez pup out of an FC AFC bitch a few years ago. It made me feel good to spend that money to know that I had a great prospect to work with. That pup had hip dysplasia and I gave her away at 18 months.


----------



## Josh Smith (May 22, 2008)

Yes, this is an excellent response. 

Thanks.

JS


----------



## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I don't think the original post is saying that getting a MH title is easy, or putting anyone down. I think it is just a perspective of what am I really getting out of this?


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Josh 
Give me some names on these $450 and $500 AFC studs. We can probably drum up this studmuffin some business. Or if you made it all up or it was 10 years ago look again at stud fees. 
Mark L.


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

By the way Josh your bitch you bred to was an AFC or FC wasn't she????
QAA wouldn't count any more than a MH.
Mark L.


----------



## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Did you have any titles on your female or did she have any titles in her pedigree? I sold all of HRCH/MH pups bred to FC/AFC sire for $1500.00. Maybe its the way you deal with people. Customers are always right.


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Josh Smith said:


> Yes, I bred to a black AFC for a $450.00 stud fee and again to a yellow AFC for $400.00. The puppies sold for $500.00.


How LONG ago was this?

kg


----------



## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

DL said:


> I don't think the original post is saying that getting a MH title is easy, or putting anyone down.


You must have missed these parts:



Josh Smith said:


> Some hunt test people take themselves way too seriously and they usually know a lot less than they think they do.
> 
> Judges often do not know what they are setting up or what they are looking for in a test.
> 
> ...


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

I'm thinking all you boys are falling for the poison bird here!!!!

ignore the ignorance regards.
Brad


----------



## Josh Smith (May 22, 2008)

The black puppies just turned 1 year old. The bitch has a JH but she is out of an NAFC. Many hunt test people believe that their ordinary dogs are worth a million $$. The field trial people that I know, provide stud services and puppies that are fairly and reasonably priced and don't over-sell or over-market their dogs.

Now, if you are talking about the top 2-3 studs in the country and a top bitch line, you had better get out your checkbook. But you can easily spend less than $1000.00 and get a top prospect. It may just feel better to spend more for some people. Nothing wrong with that.

Back to hunt tests: They are supposed to be for the average guy and his hunting dog. They have gone a long way from that and I am just wondering when and where it will end. When you have two or three pros collecting 15-20 ribbons after the test while mom, dad, and the kids leave realizing that they can't afford the game or ever hope to compete with the pros, it is just wrong.

It just becomes about the money. If you can spend $4000 + per year for three or four years on a trainer, you can probably get a MH title. Most of the middle class can't afford that.


----------



## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Josh Smith said:


> Back to hunt tests: They are supposed to be for the average guy and his hunting dog. They have gone a long way from that and I am just wondering when and where it will end. When you have two or three pros collecting 15-20 ribbons after the test while mom, dad, and the kids leave realizing that they can't afford the game or ever hope to compete with the pros, it is just wrong.
> 
> It just becomes about the money. If you can spend $4000 + per year for three or four years on a trainer, you can probably get a MH title. Most of the middle class can't afford that.



I may be feeding a troll, but...

..you are dead wrong-at least if speaking about folks in my area of the country. Plenty of folks here who train their own dogs and have solid Master dogs. It's NOT about money, but time and dedicaton-oh-& it's supposed to be (& is for most of us) fun. For those that prefer to use a pro-no harm-no foul, but plenty of average joes have no problem training to the Master level and titling.

M


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

All of the points that Josh is making have been made countless times on this very Forum, but they were civilly debated because the posters had a lot more posts under their collective belts.

When He says that "some HT judges don't know what they are setting up", is that the first time that we have heard that here?

When he says. "They are supposed to be for the average guy and his hunting dog. They have gone a long way from that ......" I've heard UB and others say that countless times.

And........"Some hunt test people take themselves way too seriously and they usually know a lot less than they think they do." surely you don't dispute this
.....or in some cases this. "Then they'll throw a bunch of breaking birds to get the Pass % down to an acceptable number .........."

Point by point we have heard it all before...... the difference is he's, new here, so y'all think you have the collective right to bust his chops.

Like I told that one guy early on in the thread if you think differently and can articulate your point then by all means do so;-)

john


----------



## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Josh Smith said:


> Do any hunt test titles really matter to anyone except the dog owner?
> JS




Nope......


----------



## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Noone cares? It's really not that clear cut. Just a thought here. 

I do agree that most "other" people could care less about most HT titles, unless the HT bitch has, a smokin' pedigree, TONS of talent, and proven FT titled siblings, and is bred to a very nice stud. Then potential buyers "care". 

LOTS of FC/or AFCs have come out of nice breedings of HT bitches. 

Many times I've heard people in the puppy buying market comment "...the bitch needs to have a solid pedigree, and be at least a Master Hunter". There ya go. It does mean something. Heard it many times...ON THESE BOARDS. 

If for anything, the HT titles display trainability and marking ability.

Typically, the pup out of a MH bitch will sell consistantly faster, and for more money than if the dam has no title whatsoever. That's been pretty much the norm.

But typically, it is the owner, and only the owner, that cares.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

http://www.hightest.com/trn_akcpedigree.php


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Danm Greg, suziq, percent, or whatever name you are going by today,....don't you have anything better to do?


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Someone posted asking how many MH's went on to be a fc or afc. How about this question? How many fc or afc's ran the Master National and didn't pass? If I'm not mistaken there have been a few.


----------



## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

labman63 said:


> Someone posted asking how many MH's went on to be a fc or afc. How about this question? How many fc or afc's ran the Master National and didn't pass? If I'm not mistaken there have been a few.


I think that is a great question! -

Do figures lie or do liars figure? - I really am not sure about that one.........

PS-
Not taking on this issue or anyone-just a spectator- (My disclaimer)


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

labman63 said:


> Someone posted asking how many MH's went on to be a fc or afc. How about this question? How many fc or afc's ran the Master National and didn't pass? If I'm not mistaken there have been a few.


Time out bad guy. You're trying to tell me that a MH is better than a FC AFC? That what you're trying to say?


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

labman63 said:


> Someone posted asking how many MH's went on to be a fc or afc. How about this question? How many fc or afc's ran the Master National and didn't pass? If I'm not mistaken there have been a few.


You know, we hang around at a lot of FTs, I don't hear all the negative comments from people about the HT game, most seem to feel it's a fine idea.

What does it matter, or even mean if a so called FT dog fails a HT? Dogs fail tests all the time, what does that prove? Many HT dogs could run FTs if they were trained for it, it's mostly the same genetics.


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

champ said:


> This guy puts it perfect. Why is it that the diehard hunttester's want this distinction between what venue you run in? It's almost like a black and white thing, I have never heard a field trialer say something negative about the HT game?


what part of wa are you from?


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Josh Smith said:


> The black puppies just turned 1 year old. The bitch has a JH but she is out of an NAFC. Many hunt test people believe that their ordinary dogs are worth a million $$. The field trial people that I know, provide stud services and puppies that are fairly and reasonably priced and don't over-sell or over-market their dogs.
> 
> Now, if you are talking about the top 2-3 studs in the country and a top bitch line, you had better get out your checkbook. But you can easily spend less than $1000.00 and get a top prospect. It may just feel better to spend more for some people. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


This post reads much more friendly than the opener. 

I'm glad you pulled back on the part about


> Some hunt test people take themselves way too seriously and they usually know a lot less than they think they do.


This more recent post almost reads like you are taking a slightly different tack now.

Chris


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

champ,

Why did you remove your real name from your signature line? I don't understand why a professional field trainer would do that? If he/she is trying to make a point, why wouldn't they want to include their name?

Love, 

John Gassner


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Josh Smith said:


> If owners want more of a challenge, they can run a Q somewhere.
> 
> JS


Off topic, but what I like about other labrador breeding programs ie Guide dog for the visually impaired is all breeding stock have to pass the training program (besides all their health clearances) and be proofed in the "field". 

Do game titles matter? Yes.......see above. Criteria is met.


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

SLICK said:


> Time out bad guy. You're trying to tell me that a MH is better than a FC AFC? That what you're trying to say?


Bad guy? I wasn't saying that at all. I was making a point to the statement that a master test was easy and the title didn't matter. I have a pup out of a FC/AFC and I also have one out of two senior hunters that I really like. I have all the respect for FT dogs and the people who train them as I do with alot of HT dogs and trainers. I will probably venture into the FT game and run a derby in the near future but for now I'm content to run HT and learn all I can.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

My Dad can beat your Dad up! 

No Caffine This Morning Regards,

FOM


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

labman63 said:


> Bad guy? I wasn't saying that at all. I was making a point to the statement that a master test was easy and the title didn't matter. I have a pup out of a FC/AFC and I also have one out of two senior hunters that I really like. I have all the respect for FT dogs and the people who train them as I do with alot of HT dogs and trainers. I will probably venture into the FT game and run a derby in the near future but for now I'm content to run HT and learn all I can.


Bad guy would be nothing more than a saying. Don't take it personal. I'm not sure anybody in their right mind would make mention of a MH title being, "Easy". As to whatever you run, whatever floats your boat. If you like it, I love it and am happy for ya.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Titles are only important to the individual. I've seen FC's that frankly I wouldn't want any part of and JH dogs that i'd like to see paired with the right partner for a pup. 

/Paul


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Titles are only important to the individual. I've seen FC's that frankly I wouldn't want any part of and JH dogs that i'd like to see paired with the right partner for a pup.
> 
> /Paul


Someone speaks the truth here. Buyer beware, all FC's not created equal.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

To all on the board, 

I was at a Hunt Test Saturday (6-30) I was approached by a pro trainer couple, who I highly respect, pointing out someone was posting some demeaning and extremely rude comments about those who run hunt tests. There was a "mistaken identity" and the couple assumed the person who was quoted was writing the posts. This is not the case. The posts have been edited since that time. The person quoted(old time field trialer) does not have any intention of being associated with the posters' opinions. All of his current clients are running in Hunt Tests, with a limited few dogs currently running successfully in derby's. 

The poster has little experience training dogs and has run in his first derby this season. The poster has been to maybe two hunts in his life and never entered his dog in a hunt test nor, has he ever run in a hunt test and has no personal knowledge of the subject. 

The poster is in my training group. (we'll see for how long) 

I just wanted to make certain of the people in Washington who know who this person is are not confused by the stupidity in any way. 

Respectfully,


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

CBR KAIE said:


> To all on the board,
> 
> I was at a Hunt Test Saturday (6-30) I was approached by a pro trainer couple, who I highly respect, pointing out someone was posting some demeaning and extremely rude comments about those who run hunt tests. There was a "mistaken identity" and the couple assumed the person who was quoted was writing the posts. This is not the case. The posts have been edited since that time. The person quoted(old time field trialer) does not have any intention of being associated with the posters' opinions. All of his current clients are running in Hunt Tests, with a limited few dogs currently running successfully in derby's.
> 
> ...


I'll refrain from Washingtonian jokes  say hi for me...

/Paul


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

In my original post i stated that FT dogs don't have as much suction on blinds. I'm not saying that they have no suction on blind becuase they do. I'm just saying that a HT dog running Master must deal with more suction on most blinds than a FT dog. 

Example: I have run many master test to where the line to the blind was 5 ft behind a flier station that the dog just picked up a flier from. Another example Throw a mark leave it laying just off line and pick up the blind. Come back and throw the other 2 or 3 marks for the dog to pick up. 

Yes in master there are alot of the same concepts as there are in AA stakes just at a shorter distance. You will still see your inline marks, wipe out birds, and extremely tight marks in a master test. You will also see the same concept water marks in a master test.

I do believe that your GOOD master dogs can run in any Q out there if given the short period of time it would take to stretch them out on the marks. 

My point is that just becuase a dog runs FT's and not HT's doesn't mean that he/she is a better dog. I'm sure there are many dogs out there that just run HT that if the owner had choosen to pursue FT the dog would have done well there too. 

Another example of how a good master dog can run Q's and compete. I have personally trained with 3 dogs that are HT dogs that have run and done well in Q's. One has only run 2 Q's. He placed 3rd in the first and won the second. Another dog placed 2nd in 2 of them. The other has placed in 3 Q's. Now they are all very consistent master dogs that have done very well in Q's. The dog that won a Q is now running Opens and has earned a 4th place in an open. 

Both FT and HT dogs are great dogs in their own game. Don't put down one or the other for lack of understanding.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Titles are only important to the individual. I've seen FC's that frankly I wouldn't want any part of and JH dogs that i'd like to see paired with the right partner for a pup.
> 
> /Paul


I'll agree with you about there might be a few FCs that you wouldn't want any part of but only because of possible health issues. The b#tch would have to have atleast a MH title with a FC AFC male for me to consider and have a very strong pedigree @ that on each parent. I'm just telling you what I'd do. To each their own. Not knocking your thought process.


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

Champ, I'm no fool and i've been around both the FT and HT dogs more than you know. I know that there is suction on FT blinds i'm not that stupid however thare is more suction on a good master blind than your open blinds. Only difference is distance! This is the exact reason why the last FT a good friend (Who is a very well known pro trainer for HT dogs) went to everyone there stated that you had better beat his dogs on the marks becuase you can't beat him on the blinds.


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm not saying a master dog is better than a FC dog. That's far from true... It takes a very special animal to win an open. I'm just comparing a MH to a QAA dog.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Trykon said:


> In my original post i stated that FT dogs don't have as much suction on blinds. I'm not saying that they have no suction on blind becuase they do. I'm just saying that a HT dog running Master must deal with more suction on most blinds than a FT dog.
> 
> Example: I have run many master test to where the line to the blind was 5 ft behind a flier station that the dog just picked up a flier from. Another example Throw a mark leave it laying just off line and pick up the blind. Come back and throw the other 2 or 3 marks for the dog to pick up.


Just add about 200-300 yards and its an often used field trial setup. Its a breeze keeping them off a poison bird and on line at 50 yards try 300.


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

I personally train on blinds that distance every day. For the very reason you just stated. Most people that have very good master dogs train to a Q level. I run marks any distance from 10-500 yards with my dog and blinds vary from 100 to 500 yards with suction, for the exact reason you just stated. If your dog can mark birds at 400 and 500 yards he can mark birds at 100 and if your dog can cast off of suction at 400 yards he can for sure cast off of it at 100. I'm just trying to say that no one should knock a HT dog for not being a FT dog. A MH is a good dog.


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Trykon said:


> . Only difference is distance!


And what a difference that is!


----------



## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

Trykon said:


> I'm not saying a master dog is better than a FC dog. That's far from true... It takes a very special animal to win an open. I'm just comparing a MH to a QAA dog.


I think you should run some Q's then, since you have the HT's down so well!


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

SLICK said:


> I'll agree with you about there might be a few FCs that you wouldn't want any part of but only because of possible health issues. The b#tch would have to have atleast a MH title with a FC AFC male for me to consider and have a very strong pedigree @ that on each parent. I'm just telling you what I'd do. To each their own. Not knocking your thought process.



I don't totally agree. Sorry. There are FC's out there with undesirable traits/habits and who pass those on to their offspring. Health is certainly important, but I don't want to train everyday on the same genetic trait, i'd rather train for skills. Titles are part of the equation certainly but I want to see and understand more about the dog than just his title. I think too many people are quick to jump on the "he's titled" bandwagon. Look at each of the NFC/NAFC that suddenly start getting bred all over the place. People think because they bought out of a NFC/NAFC that all will be good, the dog will be a major contender and then reality sits in. A very popular dog right now has a bunch of puppies out there that bark/howl/screem in the holding blinds and on the line, yet are phenomenal marking machines. Do I want to have to deal with that behavior every time I train? Personally no.

/Paul


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

I'll be running Q's late this fall.


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

My original post which has been twisted on ways it was not ment to be twisted states that he should not down grade a MH dog. A MH dog is a great dog that is very trainable. Don't down grade a persons dog becuase of your beliefs. Take a look at how many FC and AFC there are out there that came out of MH dogs. A WHOLE BUNCH OF THEM!


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Trykon said:


> . I'm just comparing a MH to a QAA dog.


This is what people were posting about.


----------



## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

Trykon said:


> I'll be running Q's late this fall.


Clark,

So you have never ran a Q? So how do you no Master's are equal to Q's?


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

One other point, Master is a finished level, many Qual dogs are quite young, and still learning. Apples and oranges.


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

I never said they are equal to Q's. That never came out of my mouth. I said the concepts are the same. I stated that a good master dog can with a little time of streching him/her out can run in Q's. Never stated that they were equal. 

Have I run in a Q yet? No i have not. But i have worked for a pro that runs both HT and runs Q's and has done very well in the Q's. So i have seen the difference in training. Main difference is distance. You train on the same concepts for master as you would for a Q just a shorter distance for master.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'll refrain from Washingtonian jokes  say hi for me...
> 
> /Paul


10-4 

Paul Gilmore

More people need to sign their names to their posts. Keeps a higher level of accountability, professionalism and CLASS!


----------



## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

Trykon said:


> I never said they are equal to Q's. That never came out of my mouth. I said the concepts are the same. I stated that a good master dog can with a little time of streching him/her out can run in Q's. Never stated that they were equal.
> 
> Have I run in a Q yet? No i have not. But i have worked for a pro that runs both HT and runs Q's and has done very well in the Q's. So i have seen the difference in training. Main difference is distance. You train on the same concepts for master as you would for a Q just a shorter distance for master.


I didn’t know that about the master stakes; see I have never been to a HT only FT’s! Trained with some HT people before, close enough I guess.


----------



## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Newbie Aliases?
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27578


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

The thing we have to remember is that (if done correctly) these dogs should all be trained the same untill they are in ADVANCED work. Also there are some great HT dogs that share the same parents as some great FT dogs. Just be thankful there is an outlet for those who do not have the time or finances available to go after those oh so "coveted" FC AFC NFC NAFC CFC CAFC CNFC CNAFC titles. These are the same people (HT'rs) who have the same goals as FT'rs just in different venues. We all just want to have the next NFC or MNH. Now keep in mind that dogs with these titles are somthing like 1% of 1% of all the registered *LABS* in the country. So IMHO the titles do matter. Other wise how would you know if you were getting the next marsh monster or the next fat couch potatoe.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

cakaiser said:


> One other point, Master is a finished level, many Qual dogs are quite young, and still learning. Apples and oranges.


Yea its hard to get excited about a 5+ year old dog running and placing in a Q.


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

rboudet said:


> Yea its hard to get excited about a 5+ year old dog running and placing in a Q.


I never said that, and I certainly don't feel that way. 

For some it may be just great, I can remember when we got our MH Rowdy QAA, we certainly were excited.


----------



## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

Losthwy said:


> Newbie Aliases?
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27578


I have in no way been rude about this whole post.


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

rboudet said:


> Yea its hard to get excited about a 5+ year old dog running and placing in a Q.




unless it's YOUR dog, that YOU trained (as an Am) - then I guess it might be pretty exciting...

there are plenty of people that play this game on limited funds, training grounds, training opportunities, and limited time..and if it takes em 5 yrs to get that Q placement, I imagine they would be pretty DAMN excited. I would be! 

And there are plenty of folks that run hunt tests, get the MH title and _then _move on to Q's.....so by the time they did that, there is every good liklihood that their dog would be 4-5 yrs old, running Q's....

Juli


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

What was the question ,,,i forgot with all the HT/FT fussing !


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

cakaiser said:


> I never said that, and I certainly don't feel that way.
> 
> For some it may be just great, I can remember when we got our MH Rowdy QAA, we certainly were excited.


Sure for the owners. Hey I am in that boat still trying to get QAA on my 4 y/o. But I am using the Q as a learning expierence and to get line time for the future. Not just to say she is QAA. (that is not what I think you are saying. I am well aware of your dog(s) achivements) She has this fall and next spring and if she isn't QAA by then, oh well it was fun trying. 

I just can't get that excited about a 5+ y/o dog running a Q. Should they run them, sure, why not it is a great learning expiernce and introduction to FT. Is it a great accomplishment placing that dog who likely already has a MH title? Sure for the owner maybe.


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

champ said:


> Dude, Theodore Roosevelt of 1899 wrote a post and it was demeaning to the FT group!!!!!! I am going to call his trainer and everyone I know and let's get this Theodore guy!!!


:-?

So this is what we've come to, huh............

.................................

kg


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

rboudet said:


> Sure for the owners. Hey I am in that boat still trying to get QAA on my 4 y/o. But I am using the Q as a learning expierence and to get line time for the future. Not just to say she is QAA. (that is not what I think you are saying. I am well aware of your dog(s) achivements) She has this fall and next spring and if she isn't QAA by then, oh well it was fun trying.


Well, good luck to you, quals are really hard these days.I get what you are saying, your goals probably are similar to ours, but not everyone has to have an FC to be successful.

My answer to the original post, of course it matters, any dog that has a MH, or is QAA, has accomplished a great deal, no matter what age they are.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

If he can accomplish QAA before my dog or me dies of old age, we will have succeeded at what we aimed for. If we can not do it, there is no replacement for the joy and adventure we will have shared. Nor would there be a substitute for the wonderful friends we have made along the way.


----------



## RailRoadRetrievers (Feb 4, 2004)

If your dog ain't gotta FC or an AFC in front of its name, it sucks.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

2tall said:


> If he can accomplish QAA before my dog or me dies of old age, we will have succeeded at what we aimed for. If we can not do it, there is no replacement for the joy and adventure we will have shared. Nor would there be a substitute for the wonderful friends we have made along the way.


Absolutely!


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Here's another thought. This thread has focused on the title aspect and not really the dog. For some dogs, getting a senior title demonstrates a great deal of work and effort by both the trainer and the dog. For another dog/trainer getting MH or QAA is pretty straightforward. To the people involved that senior title may mean a heck of a lot more than the master. I know i've had dogs like that in the past

/paul


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

cakaiser said:


> Well, good luck to you, quals are really hard these days.


You can say that again! This last year some of the Q first series have been blood baths.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

ShotGunWillie said:


> If your dog ain't gotta FC or an AFC in front of its name, it sucks.


"My dog sucks less than your dog....."



/Paul


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

I put an MHR (for those that aren't familiar with NAHRA, an MHR is similar to AKC Master) on my previous dog when he was 10. We got 3 qualifications in NAHRA Senior when he was 3, then my kids Little League and other child-raising obligations made it impossible for me to get that last pass.

Let me tell you all without hesitation, earning that final Senior pass with my old retrieving buddy was one of the proudest days of my life. I had many friends who encouraged me to get that final title for Bar.... he had earned it many times over hunting with me across the continent. I'm so glad I took the time to finally do it. Maybe it didn't mean a hill of beans to anyone else, but on that day, and to this day, it meant a lot to me.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Mike Tome said:


> I put an MHR (for those that aren't familiar with NAHRA, an MHR is similar to AKC Master) on my previous dog when he was 10. We got 3 qualifications in NAHRA Senior when he was 3, then my kids Little League and other child-raising obligations made it impossible for me to get that last pass.
> 
> Let me tell you all without hesitation, earning that final Senior pass with my old retrieving buddy was one of the proudest days of my life. I had many friends who encouraged me to get that final title for Bar.... he had earned it many times over hunting with me across the continent. I'm so glad I took the time to finally do it. Maybe it didn't mean a hill of beans to anyone else, but on that day, and to this day, it meant a lot to me.


It took me and my old man a long time to get that MHR title - had many people tell me to start over, I did but with a different goal - I'm dang proud of Bullet and he is a better trained dog, but dang Flash looks good with an MHR title in front of his name......it is all about perspective.....now if I could only get his last Finished pass.....

FOM


----------



## mudflapimmc (Feb 28, 2008)

ShotGunWillie said:


> If your dog ain't gotta FC or an AFC in front of its name, it sucks.


 Please explain why you think that. Not everyone has the time money or knowledge to get a dog that far and some, myself included are new to this game and still don't understand a whole lot about FT's.


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

mudflapimmc said:


> Please explain why you think that. Not everyone has the time money or knowledge to get a dog that far and some, myself included are new to this game and still don't understand a whole lot about FT's.



I think your chain has been successfully 'Yanked'.....;-):razz:

Juli


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If'n WE get just *one* Senior PASS on that older Bailey dog a mine,, 

Well,, Im a gonna go on a three day neighborhood streaking celebration!

People tell me to just keep her healthy,, and we'll get there!

Can dogs live till they're 35??


Gooser


----------



## Olds (Apr 16, 2008)

rboudet
Yea its hard to get excited about a 5+ year old dog running and placing in a Q.

I would. I have dog that just turned 5 that I have hunted with, ran hunt test w/ and am running my first field trail a "Qual" next month and it would make me incredibly excited if i placed. 

Jeremy Goodin


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Olds said:


> rboudet
> Yea its hard to get excited about a 5+ year old dog running and placing in a Q.
> 
> I would. I have dog that just turned 5 that I have hunted with, ran hunt test w/ and am running my first field trail a "Qual" next month and it would make me incredibly excited if i placed.
> ...


Were I in your shoes, I'd be incredibly excited if I _finished_!!!

Good luck!!

kg


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Dont FC stand for Faithful Companion  and AFC stand for Allway's Faithful Companion 

So i guess my 10 week old WING MAGIC'S MAYA'ROUXBEE aka SEXY is a FC-AFC at 10 week's got to be some kind of record .


----------



## Olds (Apr 16, 2008)

> Were I in your shoes, I'd be incredibly excited if I finished!!!


absolulely


----------



## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

My first Chessie, who already had her MH, got her first Q placement at age 7 with a 2nd place. The only time I got more excited was when she got a JAM in an Open at age 10. In today's competition getting any ribbon in a licensed trial is exciting in my book.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I don't totally agree. Sorry. There are FC's out there with undesirable traits/habits and who pass those on to their offspring. Health is certainly important, but I don't want to train everyday on the same genetic trait, i'd rather train for skills. Titles are part of the equation certainly but I want to see and understand more about the dog than just his title. I think too many people are quick to jump on the "he's titled" bandwagon. Look at each of the NFC/NAFC that suddenly start getting bred all over the place. People think because they bought out of a NFC/NAFC that all will be good, the dog will be a major contender and then reality sits in. A very popular dog right now has a bunch of puppies out there that bark/howl/screem in the holding blinds and on the line, yet are phenomenal marking machines. Do I want to have to deal with that behavior every time I train? Personally no.
> 
> /Paul


Get your point and I didn't think about a bad behavior problem. Point taken. Then again, a lot of that can be part of breeding just to breed.


----------



## BITE (Jun 13, 2008)

I can say that I appreciate the direction this thread has taken recently with the posts by Mike Tome, Cat Squirrel, and Olds. They are positive and get more to the heart of why most of us are in this game (FT & HT). I must also confess that I was going to respond to some of the tasteless posts from the weekend today and try and bring a different perspective to the group. Instead, I received a call from my mother this morning. She asked me if I could come and be with my her and my father who is in the fight of his life with cancer. I left work shortly after her call and drove 130 miles to be with them. It is from their computer that I write this message.

My perspective: Do whatever your passion in life leads you to do. If it is a title, then go get one. If it is your family, then dedicate your life to them. Choose and choose wisely. At the end of the day, the memories you create from the path you follow will last a lifetime. This thread will be only a distant memory in a day or two. I spent last weekend trying to get my first MH pass with my two and a half year old yellow. We did it and in a big way. I called my Father from the field and gave him the news. The first thing my Father said to me today when I arrived and the cancer treatment center was "congratulations" and that he was proud of me. He had bottles of fluid hanging and tubes attached to him. The title isn't important to my Father or me. Having a goal and pursuing it is. Getting the opportunity to make the celebatory phone call is the bonus. It may be the last call we ever get to have. 

Please enjoy the time you spend doing the things that mean the most to you.

Peace,

Lee Redd


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

BITE said:


> I can say that I appreciate the direction this thread has taken recently with the posts by Mike Tome, Cat Squirrel, and Olds. They are positive and get more to the heart of why most of us are in this game (FT & HT). I must also confess that I was going to respond to some of the tasteless posts from the weekend today and try and bring a different perspective to the group. Instead, I received a call from my mother this morning. She asked me if I could come and be with my her and my father who is in the fight of his life with cancer. I left work shortly after her call and drove 130 miles to be with them. It is from their computer that I write this message.
> 
> My perspective: Do whatever your passion in life leads you to do. If it is a title, then go get one. If it is your family, then dedicate your life to them. Choose and choose wisely. At the end of the day, the memories you create from the path you follow will last a lifetime. This thread will be only a distant memory in a day or two. I spent last weekend trying to get my first MH pass with my two and a half year old yellow. We did it and in a big way. I called my Father from the field and gave him the news. The first thing my Father said to me today when I arrived and the cancer treatment center was "congratulations" and that he was proud of me. He had bottles of fluid hanging and tubes attached to him. The title isn't important to my Father or me. Having a goal and pursuing it is. Getting the opportunity to make the celebatory phone call is the bonus. It may be the last call we ever get to have.
> 
> ...


Take care Lee. Good wishes for you and your family.

/Paul


----------



## gracie (Oct 16, 2007)

Certainly understand the emotions reflected in the posts. I ran trials 25 years ago with modest success.. had a family and did nothing in the dog game for years, other than triain my muttts to bring birds back for me in a hunting situation. Now I am back in the game and raring to go. My initial years of training were strictly FT. Now I belong to a HT club and a FT club. Got a JH (CKC title) at a hunt test this weekend and was thrilled. She passed each of the three days. However, I am training for FT and will be running Junior (derby) next weekend. I know the mark will be at least twice as long, but probably not as wacky (duck calls, walking with judges, moving off the line etc).
They are different games. Period.
I had a great time with the HT people this weekend. I hope to have lots of fun next weekend, although (based on my past experience) it will be more serious next weekend.
We are all playing this game to train our dogs.
it is not black and white. The two are different. I am proud to be able to play both.


----------



## FetchExpress (May 31, 2006)

Hmm

I know many people who have a PHD......no matter whether they got C's or A's they are still called DR and they deserve repect!

Just my 2 cents!


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i find it interesting that we have a thread where a lot of the posters say an MH means nothing running at the same time as a thread in which many posters feel an MH is nearly impossible for "the average joe" to achieve.....

seems like something that means nothing in terms of the skill set required to qualify as a finished retriever should be easy to attain......

of course that's not the case. is it? you can't have it both ways.

if you think the other guy's game is easy, give it a try. i guarantee you'll have a new appreciation for it, regardless of which game you call "home".-paul


----------



## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

If the MH is meaningless as some would have us believe, then why are so many people and dogs running week in and week out trying to reach that level? Folks wouldn't pony up the bucks or sacrifice their time if they felt that MH didn't mean something. Last set of numbers I saw stated that the retriever MH numbers are the biggest of all the MH programs available from AKC( counting spaniels, pointers etc) and the most popular top level program of all three venues, AKC NAHRA and HRC.


----------

