# River Oaks Corky vs Ebonstar Lean Mac



## ehf (May 13, 2010)

Is There any one on this forum that has ever seen both dogs in competion
both as derbies and all age dogs. I have seen River Oaks Corky several times
in derbies as well as All Age and thought he gave one hundred persent always
I would say He was Phenominal.
How would You say Lean Mac Compared To Corky both in marking and 
handling?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the few people that I know (still active) who could possibly say they saw and ran against both dogs are Lanse Brown, Don Remien (trained LM in his early years) and possibly Roy McFall...maybe even Dr Ed Aycock...the only person I would guess that has actually judged both dogs would be even smaller and among those would be William D. Connor

after all they were born some 24 yrs apart...arent too many that even stay in the game that long or lucid enough remember it


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I would say Corky was the better performer, Lean Mac was the better producer, hands down. Just my opinion


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Wade said:


> I would say Corky was the better performer, Lean Mac was the better producer, hands down. Just my opinion



kind of eerie that both won the National Amateur twice...both won the Canadian National Open...but neither won the National Open here..


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## ehf (May 13, 2010)

Maybe just Maybe Lanse Brown will weigh in on this one as in My book
He has a very respected opinion. It would be really great if there is person
that has judge both.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

ehf said:


> Maybe just Maybe Lanse Brown will weigh in on this one as in My book
> *He has a very respected opinion*. It would be really great if there is person
> that has judge both.


LOL...there are many who will argue that point with you too...

I know Mr Connor has judged as recently as '08..and I know he judged the '77 National Amateur @ Bong Wisc. where Corky was a Finalist at the age of 11...so there's a very good chance he judged Lean Mac, just not sure when ,where, or how many times he held the book on him


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> kind of eerie that both won the National Amateur twice...both won the Canadian National Open...but neither won the National Open here..


Lean Mac (to my knowledge) never won the Canadian National Open. He did win the Canadian National Amateur (twice).

WRL


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

WRL said:


> Lean Mac (to my knowledge) never won the Canadian National Open. He did win the Canadian National Amateur (twice).
> 
> WRL



'95, 00 National Amateur

'98 Canadian National Open



source : the Finalists by Richard Halstead , page 100


upon further investigation the Canadian National Retriever site lists Lean Mac as the winner of the 99 National Amateur

http://www.nrcc-canada.com/natl-am-archives.html


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I know how much Lee hates it when she's right. :razz:


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

He won the Canadian National Amateur twice


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> '95, 00 National Amateur
> 
> '98 Canadian National Open
> 
> ...


Well then I suggest you contact Dan Devos and Mrs. Pentecost and inform them that their dog is NOT the 1998 Canadian National Champion.


NFTCH Dippomarsh Kerensa of Carronade
Owner - Rosalind A. J. Pentecost
Handler - Dan Devos

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

http://www.theretrievernews.com/Library/HallofFameDogs/EbonstarLeanMac03

http://www3.telus.net/tkmurray/national99.html

Lean Mac won the 98/99 Canadian National AMATEUR Field Trials.

WRL


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

WRL said:


> Well then I suggest you contact Dan Devos and Mrs. Pentecost and inform them that their dog is NOT the 1998 Canadian National Champion.
> 
> 
> NFTCH Dippomarsh Kerensa of Carronade
> ...


hey my sources could be wrong...no need to attack...I did my homework and cross referenced it and they do conflict...If I am wrong as I appear to be then I stand corrected...the National Retriever site for Canada only goes to 1999 to the present


in the late Mr Halstead's book he has the '98 CNFC listed as Dippomarsh Kerensa of Carronade (page 299)

so even his publication has errors..

I stand corrected..


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> hey my sources could be wrong...no need to attack...I did my homework and cross referenced it and they do conflict...If I am wrong as I appear to be then I stand corrected...the National Retriever site for Canada only goes to 1999 to the present
> 
> 
> in the late Mr Halstead's book he has the '98 CNFC listed as Dippomarsh Kerensa of Carronade (page 299)
> ...


1) This is no attack. However, if someone says, you know, I don't think so about a statement its time to check and double check.

2) All I did was google 1998 Canadian National Amateur winner and it came up. So it wasn't that difficult.

3) I was 99.9% positive he had never won a National Open (Canadian or US) cuz I'm kinda a stat freak. But because I WAS NOT 100% sure, I chose to word my original post the way I did. You jumped on that.....well then, I corrected your correction. 

WRL


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

You were right I was wrong...


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

<~~ Looks at "Megs" registration papers ---- according to CKC & AKC as of January 2001 Max is only listed as a National Amateur Champion in both countries.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

WRL and I have done up enough pedigrees to be pretty darn sure.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> the few people that I know (still active) who could possibly say they saw and ran against both dogs are Lanse Brown, Don Remien (trained LM in his early years) and possibly Roy McFall...maybe even Dr Ed Aycock...the only person I would guess that has actually judged both dogs would be even smaller and among those would be William D. Connor
> 
> after all they were born some 24 yrs apart...arent too many that even stay in the game that long or lucid enough remember it


Some of us low profile guys have seen them both & competed against them . 

Rather than discuss their merits I will say this: I later owned 2 different Corky pups, you could not pay me any amount of money to take a LM pup.


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

Marvin S said:


> Some of us low profile guys have seen them both & competed against them .
> 
> Rather than discuss their merits I will say this: I later owned 2 different Corky pups, you could not pay me any amount of money to take a LM pup.


Now there's a PREGNANT statement!

Getting the snacks and drinks to watch the show regards


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> Rather than discuss their merits I will say this: I later owned 2 different Corky pups, you could not pay me any amount of money to take a LM pup.


Given Maxx's productivity as a sire I seriously doubt this is a widely held opinion

Seriously waiting for one more for me!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Aw come on guys, don't gdg this one. I would really be interested in hearing from people that actually saw these dogs run. What were they like? How were they different? How were they similar? Differences in training, etc. What did you and did you not like about either? There dead now, so no feelings are going to be hurt, and I don't think an honest opinion here is going to stop anybody anywhere from selling any pups. Let it roll. Thanks.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

EdA said:


> Given Maxx's productivity as a sire I seriously doubt this is a widely held opinion
> 
> Seriously waiting for one more for me!


I'd imagine so. Kweezy turned out okay.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Carol, of the very few whose involvement spans 40 years, most have no knowledge of this site or interest in posting here. While I was never personally privileged to see Corky run his legend was deep and well deserved. 

As a competitor his record total All-Age point total speaks for itself, he was truly a remarkable dog who benefitted from a dedicated owner/handler with great skill as a handler and deep pockets as an owner.

While Maxx had a great career he in no way was the equal of Corky except as a sire


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I'm with Carol very interested in hearing about these two great dogs and how they differed. Don't want to hear negative just positive differences. You can say all the negative but to have half the dogs they were would be a great ride.


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## big gunner (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok here goe Felix Moch from canvas Back Kenels in S.Carolina. Worked for Billy Voight when Billy had Cork


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Carol, of the very few whose involvement spans 40 years, most have no knowledge of this site or interest in posting here. While I was never personally privileged to see Corky run his legend was deep and well deserved.
> 
> As a competitor his record total All-Age point total speaks for itself, he was truly a remarkable dog who benefitted from a dedicated owner/handler with great skill as a handler and deep pockets as an owner.
> 
> While Maxx had a great career he in no way was the equal of Corky except as a sire


Corky was one of those greats that had it all written over his performances. I never saw Honcho run but never saw a bad pup where he was the sire, which was enough for me. IMO he was the greatest sire, but like Corky active when breedings were natural. 

As one more experienced than I stated "I can go to the pound, get a black dog that looks like a lab, breed him to enough bitches, & some will turn out". There is nothing like large numbers of pups on the ground & in the right hands to establish a dog's rep as a sire .


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Marvin S said:


> There is nothing like large numbers of pups on the ground & in the right hands to establish a dog's rep as a sire .


I'm assuming Maxx is the most prolific sire in Labrador Retreiver history.

Does anyone here know the number of litters/offspring he has sired to date? I tried the search feature and couldn't come up with anyting.

Technologically challenged regards,


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

labguy said:


> I'm assuming Maxx is the most prolific sire in Labrador Retreiver history.
> 
> Does anyone here know the number of litters/offspring he has sired to date? I tried the search feature and couldn't come up with anyting.
> 
> Technologically challenged regards,


*The number I look at is 155 titled offspring......WOW!!

Aaron*


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## Thumbs Up (Nov 26, 2004)

I co-owned a dog with Hank Mcneal that we bred to LM. The pups were pretty nice as to be expected. I did get too see the Chena dogs alot as Lynn use to train with Dave Vega and I in Los Banos for winter training. If you want to know about LM Dave Vega was one of the judges at one of the Nationals that LM won. Try and contact him. I only got to see him run once and wow Great dog. Tellus


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## Ragin Storm Retrievers (Jan 9, 2006)

AFC Ragin Eye Of The Storm (Cane) is probably one of the latest Maxx offspring to title. He titled this past September and qualified for the National Am. I wasn't in the trial game even when Maxx was running so I have no input on that aspect. I might not ever own another dog as talented as Cane but I would sure take the chance on another Maxx pup in a heartbeat.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Maxx was a Canadian National Finalist which was headquartered in the community of Logan Lake, BC. 
Maxx was being handled by Dave Smith. The lake where the final series was being held is reached by taking the road to Tunkwa Lake. Dominic Lake was part of a DU project. The 10th was a big water quad. Wind blowing down the lake pushing dogs into old falls was what befell a number of competitors. The weather co-operated with a bright fall sunshine and distant big clouds in the high altitude hills. 
Moderate to long entries across the end of the lake with the two closer birds in conflict with the longer retired marks. Some said it was Maxx's trial to loose going into the tenth. The final long retired was his undoing. Dave pushed him wide (false line) to keep him out of trouble with the closer mark though that mark was still a long swim. Maxx took the line and when he got to the far shore he put on a big hunt because he was not in the area of the fall. He went where sent.


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> You were right I was wrong...


There is a direct correlation between the length of a marriage and the number of times a man says, "Yes Dear". 
I should know cause it will be 50 on March 4th.


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## Robert Dozier (Mar 24, 2009)

Ok....training with Felix in about an hour. Will see if he will post something. Computers ands Felix don't go well together, but will see what I can get out of him.


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## ehf (May 13, 2010)

I think this thread has gotten of the track by quite. I think 2tall said
what I was looking for. Everyone knows Maxx was the producer, And I for sure
know why Corky was not and any oldtimers around know the answer also.
Given a level playing field Corky would have been one of the great producers 
also. I hope Felix will give an opinion. And surely there has to be a few more?
Ed


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

ehf said:


> I think this thread has gotten of the track by quite. I think 2tall said
> what I was looking for. Everyone knows Maxx was the producer, *And I for sure
> know why Corky was not and any oldtimers around know the answer also.*
> Given a level playing field Corky would have been one of the great producers
> ...


I guess that makes me an old timer because I know what you are hinting at...Corky was a great dog..you'll never see me say anything disparaging about he and Michael Flannery..I know that Corky is Clint's all time favorite dog and he was probably more proud of competing and beating him in the Open in his own back yard at Rocky Mountain RC in '73, he too ran against him in a couple of Nationals including the one Corky won at Jackson Hole in '75 .

Clint /Judge went out after the 9th series, I think Lanse had just retired Mariah but went out after the 7th with AFC Royal Soup's On, and after the 3rd with Dual Ch.- AFC Royal Oaks Jill of Burgundy...Roy McFall and Piper were Finalists as were Tom Quinn and Anny. that particular National Amateur had 9 future or past NFC/NAFC in the field and almost as many RHOF trainers...it might very well have been the deepest field the National Amat has ever had..


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## Orion Labradors (Sep 12, 2010)

I saw both dogs and had pups from each dog.
They were different personalities, but equal competitors. Winning a national is often over rated..... ....70% of the time it was just that dog's day.
Both produced outstanding pups.
Many of Corky's progeny, as well as other great producers, were washed out because the use of the TriTronics A-70 (cattle prod) collars. Most pros burned more than they trained. 
Intelligent training is the key to success. 
That is why Danny Farmer is still around and cultivating outstanding dogs.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

ehf said:


> I think this thread has gotten of the track by quite. I think 2tall said
> what I was looking for. Everyone knows Maxx was the producer, And I for sure
> know why Corky was not and any oldtimers around know the answer also.
> Given a level playing field Corky would have been one of the great producers
> ...


Firstly, technology has provided for the NUMBER of offspring by Lean Mac to be numerous. He was probably bred over 600 times (average litter size being 8, that puts it likely that he has over 5000 puppies out there). 

Training has progressed to the point where many dogs are competitive now that may not have been 30 years ago.

There are also WAY more people competing now then there ever have been.

There is NO WAY that you can really compare them. Apples and oranges.

WRL


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Orion Labradors said:


> I saw both dogs and had pups from each dog.
> They were different personalities, but equal competitors. Winning a national is often over rated..... ....70% of the time it was just that dog's day.
> Both produced outstanding pups.
> Many of Corky's progeny, as well as other great producers, were washed out because the use of the TriTronics A-70 (cattle prod) collars. Most pros burned more than they trained.
> ...



Would you happen to be the Orion's that produced FC AFC Orion's Sirius,FC AFC Orion's Lady Dart, and NFC Orion's Sky


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Orion Labradors said:


> I saw both dogs and had pups from each dog.
> They were different personalities, but equal competitors. Winning a national is often over rated..... ....70% of the time it was just that dog's day.
> Both produced outstanding pups.
> Many of Corky's progeny, as well as other great producers, were washed out because the use of the TriTronics A-70 (cattle prod) collars. Most pros burned more than they trained.
> ...


Thank you for that. Provides a lot of insight to their legacies. After reading this I googled Corky, and per the one photo I can find, (used repeatedly) he was also a very good looking dog. For some reason my mind had conjured him as kind of small and light.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

ehf said:


> I think this thread has gotten of the track by quite. I think 2tall said
> what I was looking for. Everyone knows Maxx was the producer, *And I for sure
> know why Corky was not and any oldtimers around know the answer also*.
> Given a level playing field Corky would have been one of the great producers
> ...


Why?? 

Newbie regards..


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## ehf (May 13, 2010)

Laker I do not know what You are asking why to? Explain that a little better?


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I see a lot of speculation about how many times Maxx was bred. It's pretty easy to get a rough guess of how many pups one stud produced as compared to another on the OFA website. If you assume that the same percentage of one sire's offspring are in the OFA database as another, I believe the comparison is pretty accurate. 

Maxx has 849 offspring in the OFA database. Is that how many he produced? No, but it's helpful for comparison purposes. 

155 titled/849 offspring = 18.25%

Let's make some comparisons:

Cosmo

35 titled/377 Offspring = 9.28%

Abe

41 titles/375 offspring = 10.93%

Fargo

20 titles offspring/138 offspring = 14.49%

We'll go farther back

Zip Code

62 titled/364 offspring = 17.03%

Tank

51 titled/270 offspring = 18.88%

The whole Maxx produced because he was bred so much concept is HOGWASH concocted by haters. :lol:


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## Orion Labradors (Sep 12, 2010)

I am the Orion Kennels that bred AFC Bam's Liberty Bell, FC-AFC Rookie's R.B.I., FC-AFC Barb's Dream Machine MH, AFC Rosemount's Iron Horse and FC Sirmak M.D. Hobbs 


Still breeding after all these years and currently have an outstanding litter on the ground.

Al Bianchi
Orion Kennels


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## ehf (May 13, 2010)

Seams as though Some folks are having atough time of staying on the line. This is suppose to be about PERFORMANCE of two given dogs. How the heck doe OFA get 
involved here?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> I see a lot of speculation about how many times Maxx was bred. It's pretty easy to get a rough guess of how many pups one stud produced as compared to another on the OFA website. If you assume that the same percentage of one sire's offspring are in the OFA database as another, I believe the comparison is pretty accurate.
> 
> Maxx has 849 offspring in the OFA database. Is that how many he produced? No, but it's helpful for comparison purposes.
> 
> ...


You can speculate all you want. I wouldn't want to confuse your surmising with some facts.

I CALLED AKC and asked how many times he had been bred. They are not likely to tell you that figure now (they probably should not have told me then) .He was about 8/9 years old at the time. He had just under 450 litters on the ground at that time.

WRL


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

ehf said:


> Seams as though Some folks are having atough time of staying on the line. This is suppose to be about PERFORMANCE of two given dogs. How the heck doe OFA get
> involved here?


Steer that ship Capt'n There's rocks ahead. HPW


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> Steer that ship Capt'n There's rocks ahead.


 :lol: :lol:

aye mate, them ain't rocks, thems boulders


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

WRL said:


> You can speculate all you want. I wouldn't want to confuse your surmising with some facts.
> 
> I CALLED AKC and asked how many times he had been bred. They are not likely to tell you that figure now (they probably should not have told me then) .He was about 8/9 years old at the time.* He had just under 450 litters on the ground at that time.*
> 
> WRL


WOW so he is the the great stallion Storm Cat of labrador retrievers (for you non thoroughbred fans out there, he is arguably the greatest sire)

that is impressive

here are some on River Oaks Corky

'72 & '75 NAFC-FC RIVER OAKS CORKY
1968-1977**
OPEN STARTS 171, 1ST-41; 2nd-27; 3rd-13; 4TH-13, % finished 68%; Open Points 306.5
AMATEUR STARTS 114, 1st-29; 2nd-12; 3rd-6; 4th-4, % finished 58%; Amateur Points 199
Average OPEN Points per year 31; Average Amateur Points per year 20; Average All-Age Points per year 51
OUTSTANDING CAMPAIGNS:
Open: 1969-60.5 points
1972-37 points
1970-42.5 points
1973-34.5 points
1971-57.5 points
1974-41.4 points
Amateur: 1969-41 points 
1971-23.5 points
1970-28 points
1975-28 points

** Susan E. Reynolds 1941-1995 RFT Statistics

CHAMPION (TITLED PROGENY)**:

Big Lost River Mike
River Oaks Black Bingo
Corky's Ramblin Riley
River Oaks Black Frost
Les Coup De Grace
River Oaks Cream Cadette
Nicolas of Niles
River Oaks Pali
DC AFC Penny Oaks Corky
River Oaks Ram of Simmer's Shot 
Penny Oaks Flint 
*NAFC River Oaks Rascal*
Penny Oaks Joe
River Oaks Rowdy Bear
Ripple River 
Togem's Tiger of Abilena


** Michael R. Flannery Retriever News Feb-March 2010


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## Robert Dozier (Mar 24, 2009)

Straight from Felix Mock...

"Corky was extraordinary in every way. He was the best dog I've ever seen. It was unbelievably natural for him to be precise. Corky never wore an ecollar. He ran fabulously straight lines - so much so...anybody could run him. Line manners were excellent. Billy Voigt and I had the honor of hunting ducks with him and he behaved like the great dog he was. "

- Felix Mock 1/17/2011


Had I not missed the line to the long bird today with my 3 year old....I probably could have gotten more out of Felix!!!


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Robert Dozier said:


> Straight from Felix Mock...
> 
> "Corky was extraordinary in every way. He was the best dog I've ever seen. It was unbelievably natural for him to be precise. Corky never wore an ecollar. He ran fabulously straight lines - so much so...anybody could run him. Line manners were excellent. Billy Voigt and I had the honor of hunting ducks with him and he behaved like the great dog he was. "
> 
> ...


Cool Robert! Thanks for sharing. I love reading and listening to stories about the great ones from the past.


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

Robert Dozier said:


> Straight from Felix Mock...
> 
> "Corky was extraordinary in every way. He was the best dog I've ever seen. It was unbelievably natural for him to be precise. Corky never wore an ecollar. He ran fabulously straight lines - so much so...anybody could run him. Line manners were excellent. Billy Voigt and I had the honor of hunting ducks with him and he behaved like the great dog he was. "
> 
> ...


Yes, thank you!!! Very interesting!


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Robert Dozier said:


> Straight from Felix Mock...
> 
> "... Line manners were excellent. ..."
> 
> - Felix Mock 1/17/2011


When I got started in Field Trials, Jerry Shinn, was an early mentor on lots of things. I haven't seen him in years, but carry my great respect for him.

Jerry's favorite story was about Corky:

Corky was 11 years old and had an open won hands down. It was the last bird and all he had to do was honor.

He broke! (Line manners?)

But his owner said, 'That's alright. We'll get you next week.'

This and other stories led me to believe Corky had a LOT of desire to go with his uncanny talent.

It would be nice to have a trial with Corky, Honcho, Cody, Tank, Lottie, Maxx, ...

but that's just a fantasy - sadly not the way time works.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Keith Stroyan said:


> It would be nice to have a trial with Corky, Honcho, Cody, Tank, Lottie, Maxx, ...
> 
> but that's just a fantasy - sadly not the way time works.



Those dogs are chasing flyers every weekend at every trial in the bloodlines of all the dogs running across the country...so in a way it is happening


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