# steadyness



## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Hey guys. I have been working with my pup on the Hillman program and just wondering what he would or you would consider steadiness? I have my picture of it I just wondered what the true definition would be.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Is this a trick question?

I'm guessing he would view steadiness as adhering to the sit command.

With the pups I've started following Hillmann's puppy DVD (original edition), I haven't needed to do any "steadiness" training. They've all sat.


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

Bill shows how to 'check' the sit command before teaching "here", pull on the lead. Pup should resist the pull consistently before you teach "here". If you proceed to 'here' before this, you will end up with an unreliable sit which will lead to further problems down the road. 
Also, Hillmann shows how to practice "sit" with distractions and he demonstrates what he considers steadiness, i.e. not picking up a bumper dropped on the ground in front of the puppy.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Ahooge said:


> Hey guys. I have been working with my pup on the Hillman program and just wondering what he would or you would consider steadiness? I have my picture of it I just wondered what the true definition would be.


There are many different sit standards depending on the trainer.

If a retriever lifts his butt, is he steady?

If a retriever moves his front feet, is he steady?

The answer depends on your "sit standard"....


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ahooge said:


> Hey guys. I have been working with my pup on the Hillman program and just wondering what he would or you would consider steadiness? I have my picture of it I just wondered what the true definition would be.


 Must be nothing to do tonight! Keep working on Hillmans DVD & if he is abiding by the sit like Bill does you will have a steady pup. Sit means SIT!!! Maintain high standards.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

No trick question captain. Just a simple curiosity to know what others think on steadiness.


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

I think for most here, sit means sit


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

MissSkeeter said:


> There are many different sit standards depending on the trainer.
> 
> If a retriever lifts his butt, is he steady?
> 
> ...


People may think they can have multiple standards but there is only one that produces a (mostly) reliable result. 

^^^^ those aren't it ^^^^^^^^

Lifting butt - not steady

Pattering feet - not steady

Sit means sit... butt on the ground, feet planted unless pushed/pulled by the handler


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I think there are differences. For instance Lardy accepts moving front feet but not butt. Others like Ted Shih allow only movement of head.
I like Ted's standard and that is my goal but it is very difficult to accomplish when you have wide swings.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> People may think they can have multiple standards but there is only one that produces a (mostly) reliable result.
> 
> ^^^^ those aren't it ^^^^^^^^
> 
> ...


Not all dogs fit the same mold. That's the problem with all these absolutes promoted. There are dogs that don't move a muscle, until they break. There are dogs that lift the butt but don't habitually break. There are dogs that move their front feet, that don't habitually break. There are people who have tried to make these dogs be absolutely still at the line and realize, it causes other problems. So, know the dog, know the standard for the dog, sit doesn't always mean sit like a frozen statue. Not in FT/HT anyway. The more time I spend watching and listening to successful FT/HT people, the more I realize just how much finesse is required, outside the books and videos. If their front feet patter, and working on correcting that patter results in a bigger problem than some feet patter, I'm going to adjust my standard for that dog. This is determined over time, working with that dog, watching the behavior, and most of all, having someone who really knows what they are doing, guide me. Yes, it is ideal that a dog sit quietly and not move, but not all dogs work their best, within that ideal.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Brings up a good point. I don't trial under the "Lab Test" conditions so it is why I ask? 
At what point under test conditions, lets say at a Master Level, will a dog be docked points for not being steady? Just how much movement can you get away with and it not cost you points? 
Thanks
Don and Crew


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Depends. In MH, some judges will have a "creep line" and if the dog goes beyond that, it's a break and you're out. When honoring, if the honor dog interferes with working dog, you're out. In SH, you get a controlled break. In the minor stakes in FT, dogs break, some judges don't even note it as long as the dog is brought under control, regardless, dogs can break in the minor stakes and not get tossed. In AA stakes, a break is DQ. It certainly isn't ideal to train to a level that's just good enough, to get by, that will generally come back to bite you. Dogs need to be reliable at the line to be successful consistently. They need to be responsible and responsive at the line. High standards in training, and hope it doesn't degrade too much in the excitement of the trial. In generally, the high, out of control dogs at the line, will take themselves out because they aren't going to see the birds or accept help from the handler. As far as getting docked, some judges are stricter than others as to what they will tolerate as far as movement/noise but I don't see too many dogs get dropped just because they move some at the line. Noise, yes, some judges will drop (and probably should for excessive noise while marks go down), but not just lifting the butt or happy feet. The standard isn't that absolute as far as HT/FT is concerned.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Like this for sure. I had a very good FT pro tell me virtually the same thing you did in this post. Specifically, he told me I could probably get my dog to stop moving his feet at the line, but I'd probably take a lot of the other good parts out of the dog to accomplish that result. He puts my heart in my throat sometimes, and the only thing I know for sure is that he will break again at some point, but steadiness, like everything else, is a little bit relative to the dog. 



Rainmaker said:


> Not all dogs fit the same mold. That's the problem with all these absolutes promoted. There are dogs that don't move a muscle, until they break. There are dogs that lift the butt but don't habitually break. There are dogs that move their front feet, that don't habitually break. There are people who have tried to make these dogs be absolutely still at the line and realize, it causes other problems. So, know the dog, know the standard for the dog, sit doesn't always mean sit like a frozen statue. Not in FT/HT anyway. The more time I spend watching and listening to successful FT/HT people, the more I realize just how much finesse is required, outside the books and videos. If their front feet patter, and working on correcting that patter results in a bigger problem than some feet patter, I'm going to adjust my standard for that dog. This is determined over time, working with that dog, watching the behavior, and most of all, having someone who really knows what they are doing, guide me. Yes, it is ideal that a dog sit quietly and not move, but not all dogs work their best, within that ideal.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Rainmaker said:


> Depends. In MH, some judges will have a "creep line" and if the dog goes beyond that, it's a break and you're out. When honoring, if the honor dog interferes with working dog, you're out. In SH, you get a controlled break. In the minor stakes in FT, dogs break, some judges don't even note it as long as the dog is brought under control, regardless, dogs can break in the minor stakes and not get tossed. In AA stakes, a break is DQ. It certainly isn't ideal to train to a level that's just good enough, to get by, that will generally come back to bite you. Dogs need to be reliable at the line to be successful consistently. They need to be responsible and responsive at the line. High standards in training, and hope it doesn't degrade too much in the excitement of the trial. In generally, the high, out of control dogs at the line, will take themselves out because they aren't going to see the birds or accept help from the handler. As far as getting docked, some judges are stricter than others as to what they will tolerate as far as movement/noise but I don't see too many dogs get dropped just because they move some at the line. Noise, yes, some judges will drop (and probably should for excessive noise while marks go down), but not just lifting the butt or happy feet. The standard isn't that absolute as far as HT/FT is concerned.


Thanks Rainmaker. Good post. \
Sounds like you guys have similar expectations as we do in the German and NAVHDA trials. I goal is train as far past as possible, the expected need and then hope the plan stays together on test day. It usually does. 
Thumbs up.
Don and Crew


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

So what is everyone's sit/place standard in the duck blind?
How about noise?


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## Quackwacker (Aug 16, 2011)

I can tell you this, I have run two HRC finished test in the last month, that if your dog didn't move its front feet, it would not see the marks. I dont mind the dog moving its front feet to follow me and the gun, but creeping is not allowed.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I would expect to be dinged for train-ability for pretty much any unnecessary movement as it relates to steadiness. Following the gun/handler, if necessary would be a positive in my mind. I don't think it's necessary very often even with 180 degrees between marks, but if it was for some reason then I think its' a good thing, as long as it's under control. Butt up, pattering feet, vocalization.. all dings


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

To me it all depends on the type of dog I am running. The more honest dogs. I give them more room to make their own decisions. If there is a little movement on the steady, I am good with that. Now the high maintenance dogs. The ones that have a tendency to break. There is no tolerance on the steady. I make all the decisions for them on the line or in the field on shoot birds. movement gets a quick response from me, unless otherwise told to. 

Keith


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> Not all dogs fit the same mold. That's the problem with all these absolutes promoted. There are dogs that don't move a muscle, until they break. There are dogs that lift the butt but don't habitually break. There are dogs that move their front feet, that don't habitually break. There are people who have tried to make these dogs be absolutely still at the line and realize, it causes other problems. So, know the dog, know the standard for the dog, sit doesn't always mean sit like a frozen statue. Not in FT/HT anyway. The more time I spend watching and listening to successful FT/HT people, the more I realize just how much finesse is required, outside the books and videos. If their front feet patter, and working on correcting that patter results in a bigger problem than some feet patter, I'm going to adjust my standard for that dog. This is determined over time, working with that dog, watching the behavior, and most of all, having someone who really knows what they are doing, guide me. Yes, it is ideal that a dog sit quietly and not move, but not all dogs work their best, within that ideal.


I agree some dogs have a style of pattering front feet and the more pressure you put on it like anything else something else may come out. My limited experience has shown the feet patters have a tendency to occasionaly break where as the creepers( butt on the ground) not so much. I have trained and owned both. I think Lardy addresses this somewhat that there are dogs whose style is the pattering feet. Was originaly taught by some Carrites (Rex Carr clients) to set the dog up on the flyer know matter the order and feet are not allowed to move. Never could get it right and seemed akward, but, also have had problems with two sided heeling dogs too, I am not smart enough to figure it out..perfect World regards, whatever works for you!


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I think there are differences. For instance Lardy accepts moving front feet but not butt. Others like Ted Shih allow only movement of head.
> I like Ted's standard and that is my goal but it is very difficult to accomplish when you have wide swings.


180 drill will teach your dog that standard.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> I would expect to be dinged for train-ability for pretty much any unnecessary movement as it relates to steadiness. Following the gun/handler, if necessary would be a positive in my mind. I don't think it's necessary very often even with 180 degrees between marks, but if it was for some reason then I think its' a good thing, as long as it's under control. Butt up, pattering feet, vocalization.. all dings



For the most part ( at least in the FT world) your most likely never going to get dinged at all for lifting the butt, happy feet or a little noise, seen alot of bad creepers win. All depends on the judges.


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## lostdog (Oct 19, 2013)

Would love the procedure for the 180 degree drill.

thx


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

DarrinGreene said:


> I would expect to be dinged for train-ability for pretty much any unnecessary movement as it relates to steadiness. Following the gun/handler, if necessary would be a positive in my mind. I don't think it's necessary very often even with 180 degrees between marks, but if it was for some reason then I think its' a good thing, as long as it's under control. Butt up, pattering feet, vocalization.. all dings


I see your logic, but now define "unnecessary movement". If you would define it as you would appear to in the post quoted above I suspect you would end up on many "do not run" lists and probably for good reason. For one example, how would you know that I have not basically decided to allow some energy to come out (moving feet) to avoid an actual break?


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I would expect to be dinged for train-ability for pretty much any unnecessary movement as it relates to steadiness. Following the gun/handler, if necessary would be a positive in my mind. I don't think it's necessary very often even with 180 degrees between marks, but if it was for some reason then I think its' a good thing, as long as it's under control. Butt up, pattering feet, vocalization.. all dings


Would you still ding the dog if he marks the lights out of the marks? I would hate to see a dog dinged for what you describe if he is a great marking dog & tractable on blinds. You, to me, are describing animation not unsteadiness. I am not a fan of a dog who vocalizes, but that needs to be judged as to what extent it's out of control. I could redeem a dog for "little things" if the whole package says this is a dog who, based especially upon superior marking, deserves to be rising to the top of the list of dogs I want to see in the next series.

M


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Todd Caswell said:


> For the most part ( at least in the FT world) your most likely never going to get dinged at all for lifting the butt, happy feet or a little noise, seen alot of bad creepers win. All depends on the judges.


Considering what I've seen in HT, not too much dinging going on there either. ;-)


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## J Gjerpe (Jan 4, 2013)

IMO the only absolute in dog training is that the trainers that have many absolutes - absolutely can not read dogs and adapt their training (-:


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Miriam Wade said:


> Would you still ding the dog if he marks the lights out of the marks? I would hate to see a dog dinged for what you describe if he is a great marking dog & tractable on blinds. You, to me, are describing animation not unsteadiness. I am not a fan of a dog who vocalizes, but that needs to be judged as to what extent it's out of control. I could redeem a dog for "little things" if the whole package says this is a dog who, based especially upon superior marking, deserves to be rising to the top of the list of dogs I want to see in the next series.
> 
> M


But if the butt comes up, paws moving & the dog creeps versus a dog that doesn't & that dog smacks the marks which dog do you want? Sit means sit. IMO Wish my dog would behave. We are working on it!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

RookieTrainer said:


> I see your logic, but now define "unnecessary movement". If you would define it as you would appear to in the post quoted above I suspect you would end up on many "do not run" lists and probably for good reason. For one example, how would you know that I have not basically decided to allow some energy to come out (moving feet) to avoid an actual break?


Exactly. I don't know too many judges that anal that are noting every movement on line. Has to be annoying to get attention, be it noise, the handler saying sit or heel a hundred times, that sort of thing, and even then, if the dog does good marks and blinds and is otherwise acceptable, hasn't committed a D/Q fault, it is likely not going to get dropped for ticky tacky little line stuff. Judges noting a butt lift or feet patter? Not likely. Not at the myriad of HT and minor stakes I've run over the years anyway.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

J Gjerpe said:


> IMO the only absolute in dog training is that the trainers that have many absolutes - absolutely can not read dogs and adapt their training (-:


Very good.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

NFC handled by Dave Rorem, Two Rivers Willie or something like that, was in my opinion, was a mess at the line but smacked the marks and won the championship. I didn't see the score sheets but I doubt if he got dinged any given the level of competition.
I didn't see it in person but it was on video. It is still probably available.

Edit: Two River's Lucky Willie, NFC 2008.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Todd Caswell said:


> For the most part ( at least in the FT world) your most likely never going to get dinged at all for lifting the butt, happy feet or a little noise, seen alot of bad creepers win. All depends on the judges.


Me to but... if I expect to get dinged and don't... then I train to a higher standard 

A dog that sits rock steady with no movement at all in training isn't likely so perfect on the line in a trial so... if I'm only going to get 80% of my standard, my standard better be good!

As long as we stay in balance and don't hurt marking over perfect steadiness, that is


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

So steadiness is only directly related to the sit command? Or in some people cases sit and stay? The whole reason I asked was I was doing some light reading on different dog trainers websites and as you all have also stated that steadiness is in the sit. I have found this quite odd. So of course I went to the dictionary. Definition #2 states "even or regular in movement." Now things are brewing in my brain and I'm starting to think that steadiness is not just in "sit" but rather in all aspects of your dog. The blind retrieve, the marked retrieve and anything else you teach your dog. Its not just about steadiness but about your standereds and expectations for how you want your dog to preform the task given to them. I saw in a previous post that some one had mentioned lardy hillman and another and what each one expects. Even tho it only mentions sit I think that a prime example of the expectations of difdrwnt trainers. I think there is a wealth of information in the thread and thank all of you for commenting.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

You have to read your dog to know how far to go, but through long, painful experience I can tell you it is no fun to walk to the line, smack the test, and go out because sit does not mean sit on the honor. The only thing less fun is about a year's worth of rehab and still holding your breath. A lot.

If your dog is really birdy, you might get a long way down the road by simply denying birds when there is movement at the line. You should also be fully aware as Darrin alluded to that you are only going to get a percentage of your training standard at a test or trial, so your training standard needs to match your dog's desire. I have to keep my thumb on mine on this issue, but your dog may be significantly different.

Here's a good place to talk about balance, which Darrin also mentioned. This is admittedly about as helpful as being told to read your dog (at least until you have some experience), but you have to keep everything in balance. I saw this in my rehab process, and it was on purpose because I had already messed up, but my dog's marking started to suffer when he got real concerned about not moving at the line - and I mean moving forward. He was telling me we were out of balance to the obedience side, just like he had told me we were out of balance to the "go, go, go" side when he started moving forward and disregarding me, only I was too inexperienced to see the former until it was too late. 

You hear "sit means sit", which means the dog should sit when you say sit and keep his butt on the ground regardless of what else is going on. But you will also learn that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that may need to be retired to pet status or rehomed. Both of those are true at he same time, as ridiculous as that may sound. You want your dog to listen, sure, but he still has 4 legs and a tail.

Good luck with your pup. 



Ahooge said:


> So steadiness is only directly related to the sit command? Or in some people cases sit and stay? The whole reason I asked was I was doing some light reading on different dog trainers websites and as you all have also stated that steadiness is in the sit. I have found this quite odd. So of course I went to the dictionary. Definition #2 states "even or regular in movement." Now things are brewing in my brain and I'm starting to think that steadiness is not just in "sit" but rather in all aspects of your dog. The blind retrieve, the marked retrieve and anything else you teach your dog. Its not just about steadiness but about your standereds and expectations for how you want your dog to preform the task given to them. I saw in a previous post that some one had mentioned lardy hillman and another and what each one expects. Even tho it only mentions sit I think that a prime example of the expectations of difdrwnt trainers. I think there is a wealth of information in the thread and thank all of you for commenting.


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## Ahooge (Dec 27, 2014)

Being a newer to training I have seen my pup go through his imbalance pace. So I took a step back reassesed what was going on adjusted and went back at it. Strange how screwy things can get she your pups training is out of balance 

Thanks for the insight 



RookieTrainer said:


> You have to read your dog to know how far to go, but through long, painful experience I can tell you it is no fun to walk to the line, smack the test, and go out because sit does not mean sit on the honor. The only thing less fun is about a year's worth of rehab and still holding your breath. A lot.
> 
> If your dog is really birdy, you might get a long way down the road by simply denying birds when there is movement at the line. You should also be fully aware as Darrin alluded to that you are only going to get a percentage of your training standard at a test or trial, so your training standard needs to match your dog's desire. I have to keep my thumb on mine on this issue, but your dog may be significantly different.
> 
> ...


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Exactly. I don't know too many judges that anal that are noting every movement on line. Has to be annoying to get attention, be it noise, the handler saying sit or heel a hundred times, that sort of thing, and even then, if the dog does good marks and blinds and is otherwise acceptable, hasn't committed a D/Q fault, it is likely not going to get dropped for ticky tacky little line stuff. Judges noting a butt lift or feet patter? Not likely. Not at the myriad of HT and minor stakes I've run over the years anyway.


I think if judges paid more attention to line manners, people would either put more effort into fixing the problem or quit running the really bad ones, Iv'e dropped 2 dogs for poor line manners , one was excessive creeping, the other was WAY to many Heel's , and have dropped 2 dogs for noise as well, I don't mind a yip when being sent but I don't like noise in the holding blind or when the birds are going down. I evaluate noise by asking myself would I want to sit in a duck blind with this dog, if it bothers me enough to think about it then it's probably to much.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Todd, would you say that most dogs with really bad line manners will eventually take themselves out? Which is what you would rather have happen as a judge, right?

I would also think that line manners that would call for being dropped solely for that are like that old saw about pornography - you kinda know it when you see it. 



Todd Caswell said:


> I think if judges paid more attention to line manners, people would either put more effort into fixing the problem or quit running the really bad ones, Iv'e dropped 2 dogs for poor line manners , one was excessive creeping, the other was WAY to many Heel's , and have dropped 2 dogs for noise as well, I don't mind a yip when being sent but I don't like noise in the holding blind or when the birds are going down. I evaluate noise by asking myself would I want to sit in a duck blind with this dog, if it bothers me enough to think about it then it's probably to much.


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## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

It is all about your expectations and consistency. I run a dog that is to short to see over my knees when I am on the bucket so I allow her to move as she needs to see the marks. I also expect her to turn with me when I push pull at the line. I do accept that the dog may need to move to see the mark. Once I am certain that the dog understands sit i won't ask for it anymore the dog just won't be rewarded unless it self sits and waits for a release. It won't come out of its crate or eat its dinner until it self sits. Marks won't be launched until it self sits. I always praise the self sits so the dog knows that it made a good choice.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

RookieTrainer said:


> Todd, would you say that most dogs with really bad line manners will eventually take themselves out? Which is what you would rather have happen as a judge, right?
> 
> I would also think that line manners that would call for being dropped solely for that are like that old saw about pornography - you kinda know it when you see it.


I think so to both of your comments, but it's not only about being dropped but if you carry that really bad mannered dog and then they hammer the last series, now what??
I learned something from a really good judge a few years ago, put a sign in the last holding blind that reads "dog must be touching mat for ALL sends" that way you don't have to tell then to reheel, and instructions are pretty black and white. Have had a couple that never got the dog back on the mat.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Im_with_Brandy said:


> It is all about your expectations and consistency. I run a dog that is to short to see over my knees when I am on the bucket so I allow her to move as she needs to see the marks. I also expect her to turn with me when I push pull at the line. I do accept that the dog may need to move to see the mark. Once I am certain that the dog understands sit i won't ask for it anymore the dog just won't be rewarded unless it self sits and waits for a release. It won't come out of its crate or eat its dinner until it self sits. Marks won't be launched until it self sits. I always praise the self sits so the dog knows that it made a good choice.


Between sitting on a bucket and the wide swings you see at a HRC test it makes it hard for a dog to keep it's body planted only moving it's head and still see the marks.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Miriam Wade said:


> Would you still ding the dog if he marks the lights out of the marks? I would hate to see a dog dinged for what you describe if he is a great marking dog & tractable on blinds. You, to me, are describing animation not unsteadiness. I am not a fan of a dog who vocalizes, but that needs to be judged as to what extent it's out of control. I could redeem a dog for "little things" if the whole package says this is a dog who, based especially upon superior marking, deserves to be rising to the top of the list of dogs I want to see in the next series.
> 
> M


Marking, train-ability and style are separate marks on the sheet Miriam, so yes, I would have a lower train-ability score and a high marking (and potentially style) score. 

To me, steadiness (or the lack there of) and the ability to be "relaxed" on-line is indicative of a dog's blind manners. If you've ever been in a blind all day with a dog that has poor manners, you know how much of an annoyance that is, regardless of how well he may mark.

Train-ability encompasses the overall willingness of the dog to work with the handler, so if there is excellent control on blinds this certainly plays into the overall score. 

Level of competition/testing matters also. If it's a JH that would be significantly different than a MH, as a derby would be different than an Open. 

Being a HT guy remember something else... there is a possible 10 here and a "ding" doesn't mean the dog isn't getting a 7 or 8, it just means he's not getting a perfect score.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Todd Caswell said:


> I think if judges paid more attention to line manners, people would either put more effort into fixing the problem or quit running the really bad ones, Iv'e dropped 2 dogs for poor line manners , one was excessive creeping, the other was WAY to many Heel's , and have dropped 2 dogs for noise as well, I don't mind a yip when being sent but I don't like noise in the holding blind or when the birds are going down. I evaluate noise by asking myself would I want to sit in a duck blind with this dog, if it bothers me enough to think about it then it's probably to much.



You sai da couple of things that indicate hunting experience Todd. I think that may be the missing element with some folks that changes their viewpoint. For a hunter, a constantly pacing, low whine, in your lap all day duck dog just doesn't cut it. If you don't hunt, you wouldn't understand this fully.

In FT maybe things ought to be different (although those are duck dogs supposedly also). In HT line manners are most certainly something to be looked at with scrutiny. Like I mentioned they can mark their asses off and if they're a pain in the blind I'd rather not hunt them. 

You'd like marking to be the majority of the dog's work but usually... it's sitting quietly in the blind between volleys.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Todd Caswell said:


> Between sitting on a bucket and the wide swings you see at a HRC test it makes it hard for a dog to keep it's body planted only moving it's head and still see the marks.


What if you sit the dog 3 feet in front of you where he can see everything without moving Todd? not possible? serious question


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> What if you sit the dog 3 feet in front of you where he can see everything without moving Todd? not possible? serious question


Nope because you are handling the gun, with a dog 3 feet out in front you would be shooting right over his head.


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

DarrinGreene said:


> You sai da couple of things that indicate hunting experience Todd. I think that may be the missing element with some folks that changes their viewpoint. Sorry, a constantly pacing, low whine, in your lap all day duck dog just doesn't cut it.
> 
> In FT maybe things ought to be different (although those are duck dogs supposedly also). In HT line manners are most certainly something to be looked at with scrutiny. Like I mentioned they can mark their asses off and if they're a pain in the blind I'd rather not hunt them.
> 
> You'd like marking to be the majority of the dog's work but usually... it's sitting quietly in the blind between volleys.



My whole point in asking the question in my previous post. 
Which then begs the question, if FT and HT replicate hunting conditions,and said test is skewing those conditions, what's the point?

Please read and keep the next comment in context. I'm still gonna get flamed....

It's kinda like when women and minority's wanted equal access to jobs , ie police, fire , military.
And when a large percentage could not pass scholastic or physical tests, they lowered the standard.

Now I'm sure on the other side of the pond they have thier share of creepers and breakers but how do they
get soo many steady dogs on shoots? Where I'm sure that's way more pressure on a bird dog?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

There is a big difference between tolerating a butt lift or front feet patter vs a whining, pacing, OOC dog that isn't listening to heel or sit, etc. Annoying dogs in the holding blinds or at the line are just that, annoying, you know it when you see it and those dogs should be significantly scored lower, especially with noise, to the point of elimination if excessive/continued, as is within the rules. Many, if not most, dogs don't need to be given any slack on movement, but, some do, a bit, that's all that was being stated by some of us, we weren't suggesting that wholescale bad manners be tolerated as long as the marks and blinds are good. I have a MH/QAA that has a standard of no forward movement, no noise while marks are going down, but she can move her front feet, and she gives a yip when she leaves the line. Trying to eradicate either of those behaviors over the years resulted in more problems than it was worth. We don't waterfowl hunt anymore, but she is an excellent upland dog and an excellent, low key housedog, she failed two MH tests in her career and finished half the Qualifying stakes she ran, she ran one Am last summer and made it to the WB. My QAA male doesn't get leeway at the line, wouldn't be good for him. He's a quiet dog but he is animated, not a breaker, so far, just really happy to be doing what he's doing, not super sensitive, not overly tough either. He can be corrected on movement during training without it taking anything away from him elsewhere. Those types of little adjustments are what some of us were discussing in our "steadiness" standard, that sit doesn't necessarily mean motionless, for every dog.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

480, your post is unbelievably crass.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

480/277 said:


> My whole point in asking the question in my previous post.
> Which then begs the question, if FT and HT replicate hunting conditions,and said test is skewing those conditions, what's the point?


FT & HT do not replicate hunting conditions. 

And the point of both is to have fun... and in a FT is to determine the relative merits of the dogs in the field - where marking is of primary importance. The purpose of a HT is to determine whether or not the dog has the natural an trained abilities to meet a standard- where marking is of primary importance.



480/277 said:


> Please read and keep the next comment in context. I'm still gonna get flamed....
> 
> It's kinda like when women and minority's wanted equal access to jobs , ie police, fire , military.
> And when a large percentage could not pass scholastic or physical tests, they lowered the standard.


In context, the standard for the weekend hunt test has always been low. In AKC hunt tests, if you have a great marking dog with great perseverance and style, you only need to score 5 on a scale of 10 in trainability to receive a qualifying score. If you have a very trainable dog with style and perseverance, you only need to score a 5 out of 10 in marking to receive a qualifying score. The standard has not changed to accommodate a certain type dog. 

In an AA field trial, nearly 2/3 of the field gets sent home in the first series every time out based on their relative merits. Because you are judging the relative merits of the dogs, the only standard that matters is did the dog have an eliminating fault. If not, you call back those that you have the time to judge further. 



480/277 said:


> Now I'm sure on the other side of the pond they have thier share of creepers and breakers but how do they get soo many steady dogs on shoots? Where I'm sure that's way more pressure on a bird dog?


I don't know what they have on the other side of the pond. Nor do I know how much pressure they is on a bird dog. I do know there are steady, non-creeping and stylish dogs here in the U.S. that are not steady because of the pressure on them.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Todd Caswell said:


> Nope because you are handling the gun, with a dog 3 feet out in front you would be shooting right over his head.


Makes sense. Hadn't thought about that LOL in AKC people do that all of the time... You wouldn't do it if the gun wasn't a broom stick


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Rainmaker said:


> There is a big difference between tolerating a butt lift or front feet patter vs a whining, pacing, OOC dog that isn't listening to heel or sit, etc. Annoying dogs in the holding blinds or at the line are just that, annoying, you know it when you see it and those dogs should be significantly scored lower, especially with noise, to the point of elimination if excessive/continued, as is within the rules. Many, if not most, dogs don't need to be given any slack on movement, but, some do, a bit, that's all that was being stated by some of us, we weren't suggesting that wholescale bad manners be tolerated as long as the marks and blinds are good. I have a MH/QAA that has a standard of no forward movement, no noise while marks are going down, but she can move her front feet, and she gives a yip when she leaves the line. Trying to eradicate either of those behaviors over the years resulted in more problems than it was worth. We don't waterfowl hunt anymore, but she is an excellent upland dog and an excellent, low key housedog, she failed two MH tests in her career and finished half the Qualifying stakes she ran, she ran one Am last summer and made it to the WB. My QAA male doesn't get leeway at the line, wouldn't be good for him. He's a quiet dog but he is animated, not a breaker, so far, just really happy to be doing what he's doing, not super sensitive, not overly tough either. He can be corrected on movement during training without it taking anything away from him elsewhere. Those types of little adjustments are what some of us were discussing in our "steadiness" standard, that sit doesn't necessarily mean motionless, for every dog.


Don't want anyone to think I don't get this ^^^^^^^^^^^, because I absolutely do. As I said to Miriam... "dinging" a dog means marking slightly lower, that doesn't mean the dog doesn't get an acceptable score. Talking HT they all have the potential to earn a 10, right? So the mannerly dog might get a 9 and the slightly less might get a 7. They both pass since people recognize (hopefully) desire creeping into performance and judge accordingly. In a FT not sure it makes any difference to anyone as long as it's not gross and not sure it should.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

480/277 said:


> My whole point in asking the question in my previous post.
> Which then begs the question, if FT and HT replicate hunting conditions,and said test is skewing those conditions, what's the point?
> 
> Please read and keep the next comment in context. I'm still gonna get flamed....
> ...


That comment is about as insensitive as you can get. 

Someone's intelligence is obviously on the very low end of the spectrum. FYI, the majority of doctorate degrees awarded today are given to women in almost every discipline. 

I have NEVER asked the bar be lowered for me because I am a women. In fact, most of us have no problem going toe to toe with the guys and often do. To assume so is incredibly insulting to all who have busted our asses to get where we are. Even when we achieve success, we still get paid less then men who are suppose to be our equals. How would you like them apples? 

Really brave for a white guy who has never had to deal with the ridiculous stereotypes you just presented in his life. Grow up! 

If you want I could list my scholastic and physical achievements and see if the bar needs to be lowered, but I already know the answer.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

After fifteen years of experience in training five Labs for many, many hunt tests and as much hunting as I could squeeze into those fifteen plus seasons, I have an opinion about steadiness. 

The issue is basically simple. Most pups start testing or hunting before they are truly ready and they soon learn the difference. Today's world wants things done yesterday. Rushing a job often involves "fixing things" and the efforts expended while *making a pup NOT do something*......are not much fun. Don't ask me how I know this.









As for hunting, learning "on the job" is inefficient....at best.









My most recent pup is now ten months old. I've been using Hillmann's program. She is steady. "I trained her myself."


















Pounce will be well into transition (running cold blinds) by this fall. She's already been to duck camp, been on boat rides and romped in the backwaters of the Mississippi River. She'll be ready to hunt. 

Pounce will not run any tests until she is almost two years old. She will be ready.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

480/277 said:


> My whole point in asking the question in my previous post.
> Which then begs the question, if FT and HT replicate hunting conditions,and said test is skewing those conditions, what's the point?
> 
> Please read and keep the next comment in context. I'm still gonna get flamed....
> ...


I agree . It's INDIRECT pressure applied and controlled by the dog not the handler obtained through the training process and exposure to far more pressure in training than the 'real' thing 
Some call it 'calm' 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

Rainmaker said:


> 480, your post is unbelievably crass.


IF I had a nickel for every time I heard that... 
I was even called that last winter on the docks of the Groton sub base
by an old salt ......
Thankfully I'm comfortable in my own skin...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

480/277 said:


> IF I had a nickel for every time I heard that...
> I was even called that last winter on the docks of the Groton sub base
> by an old salt ......
> Thankfully I'm comfortable in my own skin...


I'm sure all the racist bigots are very proud of you.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Rainmaker said:


> I'm sure all the racist bigots are very proud of you.


Thats ok Kim I am sure like the other sexist and racist pigs his accomplishments in life are minimal at best. You also know his level of security by the lack of a real name. Always big of someone to make accusations without any real accountability.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Very true, Janell. Real names would be nice, because if I ever came across something like that my son posted, I'd want to know, so we could have a little chat. Otherwise, this type really isn't worth the bandwidth.


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

Jeff Pringal
Colchester CT

as far as racist bigot, You probably mean that like Jesse Jackson did when he debated William F Buckley. 
I feel honored.....


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Jeff.....just give it a rest. You went off topic looking for attention. Why?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> Pounce will be well into transition (running cold blinds) by this fall. She's already been to duck camp, been on boat rides and romped in the backwaters of the Mississippi River. She'll be ready to hunt.
> 
> *Pounce will not run any tests until she is almost two years old*. She will be ready.


Boy would that solve alot of peoples problems, they don't believe you when you try to tell them that until they have a 3 year old they can't run anymore.


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

KwickLabs said:


> Jeff.....just give it a rest. You went off topic looking for attention. Why?


It's really not a tangent. The steady standard is for dog safety. Ie in hunting if dog breaks when guns are going off dog can die.
My comparison to standards for jobs being the same, ie. If you want to be a fireman you need to carry 250 lbs off a ladder. Why? Because if your partner goes down and needs help out of a burning building, your job requires you to get your partner to safety .

A pity that, adherence to standard makes you ua sexist bigot today?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

480/277 said:


> It's really not a tangent. The steady standard is for dog safety. Ie in hunting if dog breaks when guns are going off dog can die.
> My comparison to standards for jobs being the same, ie. If you want to be a fireman you need to carry 250 lbs off a ladder. Why? Because if your partner goes down and needs help out of a burning building, your job requires you to get your partner to safety .
> 
> A pity that, adherence to standard makes you ua sexist bigot today?


How about something like not keeping score in youth sports? Or everybody gets a trophy at the end of the season? Many ways you could have gone...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

480/277 said:


> It's really not a tangent. The steady standard is for dog safety. Ie in hunting if dog breaks when guns are going off dog can die.
> My comparison to standards for jobs being the same, ie. If you want to be a fireman you need to carry 250 lbs off a ladder. Why? Because if your partner goes down and needs help out of a burning building, your job requires you to get your partner to safety .
> 
> A pity that, adherence to standard makes you ua sexist bigot today?


You forecasted that you would get flamed.

That means you knew you'd offend some folks.

Why not focus on the training discussion?

Thanks, Chris


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

Chris Atkinson said:


> You forecasted that you would get flamed.
> 
> That means you knew you'd offend some folks.
> 
> ...


Sorry Chris
I did forecast I'd get flamed , not accused of being a bigot. Which is ironic because my opinion was not tolerated.

No worries, you can delete my account.
Haze grey , gone away


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> Boy would that solve alot of peoples problems, they don't believe you when you try to tell them that until they have a 3 year old they can't run anymore.


Amen. Through a variety of circumstances I didn't run mine util he was 2, and we still had a year of rehab. I shudder to think what he might have been like if I had started running him in Junior at 11 months.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> After fifteen years of experience in training five Labs for many, many hunt tests and as much hunting as I could squeeze into those fifteen plus seasons, I have an opinion about steadiness.
> 
> The issue is basically simple. Most pups start testing or hunting before they are truly ready and they soon learn the difference. Today's world wants things done yesterday. Rushing a job often involves "fixing things" and the efforts expended while *making a pup NOT do something*......are not much fun. Don't ask me how I know this.
> 
> ...


Pounce looking great JIM!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks Mary Lynn. 

I hope everyone understood the humor intended in the comments _"She is steady. I trained her myself."_


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## DeWayne S. (Oct 4, 2014)

KwickLabs said:


> Thanks Mary Lynn.
> 
> I hope everyone understood the humor intended in the comments _"She is steady. I trained her myself."_


I'm still laughing on that one Jim. I just saw the vid you are referring to. LMAO


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

J Gjerpe said:


> IMO the only absolute in dog training is that the trainers that have many absolutes - absolutely can not read dogs and adapt their training (-:


Got my vote. 

I am beginning to think that steadiness is subjective at best. 

480/277,
There is a time and place and then there is a time and place and it is not the public internet. 
Damn man....Something got the best of you.  Just saying.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Todd Caswell said:


> Boy would that solve alot of peoples problems, they don't believe you when you try to tell them that until they have a 3 year old they can't run anymore.



I have a female that turned three this winter. This spring she'll run her first trial...


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Buzz said:


> I have a female that turned three this winter. This spring she'll run her first trial...


And it not a one size fits all thing either, but in general if people waited until the dog was really ready to run mentally it would solve alot of the line manner problems with dogs that get really high. I have a little guy that is 19 monthes old, will never run a derby but hopefully will be ready to run a Q next summer. I have double staked him in every club trial puppy/derby derby/hunter for the past 2 winters and he doesn't move a muscle on the line, BUT if he had even shown 1 inkling of movement I would have pulled him. Part of it I think is the dog and part of it is he hasn't been allowed to move at all ever. But he still throws dirt in your face, we never broke his desire but he never got to retrieve unless he didn't move. Again I think some of it is the dog, and no matter what you do some just don't ever get the fact that you have to sit still to get the reward.. I like it better when they GET it, makes training much more fun..


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Clear expectations from day 1 are very valuable for certain things, right Todd?


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