# Shocked, Saddened....WHY???



## cocdawg (Mar 9, 2013)

Friday afternoon my cousin's 9 y.o. daughter bent down to kiss their families' 4 y.o. golden, as she has done many times before, and the dog bit her on the face. The girl was taken by ambulance to a local hospital and then transported to Children's Healthcare of ATL and had emergency surgery on her face by a wonderful plastic surgeon. She's doing fine and only worried about dad putting the golden down and what kids at school are going to say about her face. The dog is at the father's parents' house at this time. This golden is the entire families' life and has never been aggressive towards anyone. My question is why now? The mother of the child told us yesterday that for the last couple of weeks they thought his hearing may be going. He always barked when people pulled in the yard but quietened down once whoever came inside. He hasn't been doing that the last couple of weeks. Could his hearing have become bad and when she bent down to kiss him it startled him? That's my only guess. This family has a 3 month old and I cringe to think what might have happened if it had been her. I've talked with the father and he's 99.9% sure he has to put her down. I know I can't speak without going through what they have but I told him if it were me he would have to be put down. His family raises wonderful goldens and have never had one in 15+ years that they know of that's been aggressive. What would you do and what's your thoughts on why?


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

cocdawg said:


> Friday afternoon my cousin's 9 y.o. daughter bent down to kiss their families' 4 y.o. golden, as she has done many times before, and the dog bit her on the face. The girl was taken by ambulance to a local hospital and then transported to Children's Healthcare of ATL and had emergency surgery on her face by a wonderful plastic surgeon. She's doing fine and only worried about dad putting the golden down and what kids at school are going to say about her face. The dog is at the father's parents' house at this time. This golden is the entire families' life and has never been aggressive towards anyone. My question is why now? The mother of the child told us yesterday that for the last couple of weeks they thought his hearing may be going. He always barked when people pulled in the yard but quietened down once whoever came inside. He hasn't been doing that the last couple of weeks. Could his hearing have become bad and when she bent down to kiss him it startled him? That's my only guess. This family has a 3 month old and I cringe to think what might have happened if it had been her. I've talked with the father and he's 99.9% sure he has to put her down. I know I can't speak without going through what they have but I told him if it were me he would have to be put down. His family raises wonderful goldens and have never had one in 15+ years that they know of that's been aggressive. What would you do and what's your thoughts on why?


Vet visit is definitely needed, especially since this is so unusual for the dog's behavior and owner has noticed other subtle changes in behavior. Full T3-T4 thryoid profile and blood screening at a minimum. If this is one of the dog's that the owner has raised from their breedings, I would want to do some testing to find out if I had something in my bloodlines I should be aware of before before just "putting the dog down", especially if this is so out of the blue. But ultimately, that's a decision that only the owner can make.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

A change in behavior recently by the dog should be looked into...medically. 

Definitely as Terrie says...TBD could very well be involved here..so sad. The reason this dog has been acting not right lately should be deteremined and it could very well be a medical issue. It might be a good idea if you talked with the owner again..and forward Terrie's thoughts and advice on testing ...before making the decision to put him down. 

Their daughter should also have a chance to know why..as she is so concerned ...at least a reason why the dog did this so she does not feel to blame. Hope to hear the testing is going to take place..and maybe results of tests.. This would be best for all involved. 

Judy


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## cocdawg (Mar 9, 2013)

Frontier-I'm clueless when it comes to vet terms. Can you or someone else elaborate on the tests you suggested. Such as what these tests will show. I'm sure the breeder will know these things but I was curious for myself.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> This family has a 3 month old


9 year old and a 3 month old. Maybe one (some) in between. I'd never trust the dog again. Put down or maybe rehome if I figured it might be a one time deal.


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## cocdawg (Mar 9, 2013)

Howard-They do have a 11 y.o. too. They are 110% sure the dog is not coming back home. The two girls have cried since yesterday morning bc they overheard daddy saying he was putting the dog down. They want grandma, the breeder, to keep him. Tough decision he's facing for sure.


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

Brain cancer?


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

severe ear infections? if the hearing hasn't been right, and the daughter might have touched an ear....
I would never again trust the dog, however. 
Perhaps re-home to a family with no children? 
So sad.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Howard....the posts states completely unexpected...family dog with children... Recent changes in behavior. Dog is with adults now that bred him. The "right" thing to do would be to find out what is wrong..children are crying since it happened and heard he is going to be put down..re the posts. 

If the dog has anyone of the issues suggested...thyroid, TBD, severe ear infections, tumor etc etc..it would be good to know and only fair. 

Children can understand better...the dog is not well, can be treated and good as ever (even if rehomed) or if terminal issue..then best to know that.. Children will then not blame themselves...kids do that in situations where there is unhappiness or feel at fault because they are involved in something..such as this. ..kiss the dog, dog bites.. 

It sounds like something changed for the dog..not acting himself recently. Since the grandparents bred the dog, it would be a shame not to find out what has happened to him. 

I hope the help and support offered here on RTF has already been forwarded to the grandparents..especially since a grandchild is involved, it is more emotional.. That everyone is hoping that there is a (medical issue) reason the dog bit..he will be treated and will be fine..and family will have some sense of what has happened. 

Otherwise...they all may be more upset than needed. 

Had hoped to see update that he is going to an excellent vet that will know medical issues to cause a dog's behavior to change so. 

If a brain tumor...causes pressure..seizures are often presented as aggression. Actually having a seizure..and we know that first had from a kitty with much scar tissue in brain from severe injury when very young. He had episodes the rest of his life..and finally did die after the worst that I had seen. Not the traditional seizure one thinks of...but aggression to attack. Very sad. 

So, I hope something is done for this dog before conclusions are made..and for the peace of mind for his family. 

Judy (should not be rehomed without vet checkup and testing)


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

My thought is hypothyroid or broken tooth. Thyroid issues usually start to show up around three or four and this dog is right there. Broken teeth can happen anytime and cause great pain for the dog.


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## cocdawg (Mar 9, 2013)

While I don't have any say-so in the matter, I am going to suggest they take him to the vet to be checked. We are going over there shortly to take the kids some "goodies" to hopefully lift their spirits. My wife teaches and is going to reassure the little girl that everything will be fine at school tomorrow but should someone pick at her that she can come to my wife's room. Her dad just told me that they're still crying off and on about him being put to sleep. I'm going to refer him to RTF and this post for the next few days. THANKS ALL!!!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Personally regardless of any test I couldn't trust him with a child again but I do think he could be rehomed to the right circumstance. It is a tough call.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Judy Chute said:


> Howard....the posts states completely unexpected...family dog with children... Recent changes in behavior. Dog is with adults now that bred him. The "right" thing to do would be to find out what is wrong..children are crying since it happened and heard he is going to be put down..re the posts.
> 
> If the dog has anyone of the issues suggested...thyroid, TBD, severe ear infections, tumor etc etc..it would be good to know and only fair.
> 
> ...


Judy I realize everything you have said is true but how can you trust that dog again especially with kids. Very sad situation I feel for that family. Hope it turns out okay. Best thing it has gone back to the breeder which is the grandmother but she will have to watch the dog. I also agree a vet check is in order b/c this is very unusual and out of character for this dog!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

When I was a kid my next door neighbor had a standard poodle, a nice dog. As she got older she had cataracts and went stone cold deaf. I went over to their house and she was standing there facing the front door waiting to be let inside. I rang the doorbell and (not thinking) reached over to pet the dog. Well the dog had no idea I was there and I still have a scar on my hand to prove it. I said all of that to say this - if there is something going on with the dog's hearing then this could be perfectly understandable. I agree with those that say to have this dog checked out. If there is a terminal medical reason then at least there would be more closure and peace with the decision to put him down and not a lifetime unanswered question for those kids. If there is something that can be treated then even if they can't trust the dog anymore (I can't blame them but can't say what I would do) then they could safely re-home to an adult only household. I don't subscribe to the idea that a dog bite should automatically equal a dead dog.

I hope the little girl heals up nicely (physically & emotionally) and they get some answers and a workable solution for the dog.


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

I have been attacked by a neighbors dog and I have also been bitten by a startled dog and there is a clear difference. The children's safety should come first. For me in that homes shoes it would be test and re home for startled and put down for aggressive attack.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Judy I realize everything you have said is true but how can you trust that dog again especially with kids. Very sad situation I feel for that family. Hope it turns out okay. Best thing it has gone back to the breeder which is the grandmother but she will have to watch the dog. I also agree a vet check is in order b/c this is very unusual and out of character for this dog!


Mary Lynn....I think that my post is misunderstood. I certainly did not say that the dog (he must have a name but it hasn't been mentioned)..should live with children again. That is not what I am suggesting...or qualified at all to say. 

If there is a medical issue with this dog, and treatment would take care of it..again, like TBD as an example..why would he not deserve meds, Doxy etc, or thyroid..? If it's a brain tumor as someone suggested as a possible reason for aggression, then that would have to be dealt with appropriately.. 

Surely the owner..and the grandparents who bred and now have the dog will make the best decision for the dog..and the family...and by the way, the dog IS part of their family ..obvious that they all love him and are having a hard time with this and do not seem to be jumping quickly to decisions that might not be right. 

My husband and I have two grown daughters with husbands and grandchildren..we have Goldens, they have pet mixbreed rescued dogs and cats between all of them. Their pets are family members..and if they were put in the same position as this family..I am positive that we would all be as upset and concerned.. 

I do know for sure..that we would all want to have the dog checked for possible problems..to help him if possible and just as important to give us answers as to why. The children should not have to live with feeling they caused the bite, especially when there could be found the reason he did so..that is not due to his temperament, but other listed on this thread. 

Sorry, if I sent the wrong message..certainly not my intention. 

My very best wishes to everyone in this. Hope for an update ..and perhaps some good news. 

Judy (just rereading posts and some I had not read yet.. The post that says the children want grandparents to keep the dog is important. If he has something wrong that is treatable, the children would be accepting that he is still in the family and loved..plus broken tooth etc not thought of before..a thorough exam is really important)


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## Jen Marenich (Jan 20, 2013)

frontier said:


> Vet visit is definitely needed, especially since this is so unusual for the dog's behavior and owner has noticed other subtle changes in behavior. *Full T3-T4 thryoid profile *and blood screening at a minimum. If this is one of the dog's that the owner has raised from their breedings, I would want to do some testing to find out if I had something in my bloodlines I should be aware of before before just "putting the dog down", especially if this is so out of the blue. But ultimately, that's a decision that only the owner can make.



For sure... I had a similar situation with a 5 1/2 year old dog... He also became very skittish for a couple weeks before we figured it out, when this dog normally wouldn't have been bothered by a bomb going off next to him. turned out he had almost no thyroid function. Haven't had a problem since he was put on thyroid medication.

Having said that, I don't think I would trust the dog around kids again, but may be fine with adults who know how to handle him safely.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I would give the dog some benefit of doubt. Children are totally unpredictable and usually not so "innocent". Dogs will react with fight or flight, and in this case, with a child leaning OVER a dog, the fight instinct was triggered. This is a case of two wrongs that ended up with a child being injured, not because the dog stalked or ran down a child and attacked, but because the dog was startled and giving a warning bite in preparation to flee. The terrible thing with large dog bites is the amount of damage that can be done in a very brief and "minor" bite, especially with the location of the bite. 
IMO, the important thing regarding keeping the dog would be: cause of behavior leading up to the bite, whether there is an injury or pain, or illness going on, and how did he act immediately afterwards. Many times, when a dog bites after being startled, they look and act contrite and will be as friendly as they usually are within a very short period of time. If he continues to cower, growl, or tries to escape contact from this child or any other children, then I would not feel that he should remain in this time of situation. It would not be healthy for him or any other kids. 
I guess I am less prone to "blame the dog", and whenever my kids have come running with scrapes, scratches, etc... I have always asked "what did YOU do to make this happen?" Thankfully, none of these incidents were serious enough to need stitches (on the kids, I on the other hand had some swell punctures from a drop kick sized dog in my calf). 
You may be tempted to react swiftly in cases such as these, however I would urge you to stop, collect all the evidence, and then make a logical decision. You can always put the dog down later, but you won't be able to bring him back if you should find out that the dog really wasn't to blame.


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## 150class (Jul 1, 2003)

short story-
we had friends over a few years ago. They had a 8 year old daughter. My Goldens are crazy friendly to everyone. All of us we in the kitchen, girl was on her knees petting one of them and she wheeled around and snapped at the girl for what we thought was no reason. I was standing a foot away. She felt bad that she did something wrong. I put the dogs away until after they left. Went and got the dogs, I tried to reenact what she did and bingo, she did the same thing to me. I thought WTH !

We'd been pheasant hunting that morning and she picked up a thorn that was embedded the opposite direction that her hair lays. As soon as they girls hand came over it she obviously hit the thorn. Very painful I'm sure.
I called my friend immediately and told him to re insure his daughter that she didn't do anything wrong.
I'll never forget that. Something so so simple.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

firehouselabs said:


> I would give the dog some benefit of doubt. Children are totally unpredictable and usually not so "innocent". Dogs will react with fight or flight, and in this case, with a child leaning OVER a dog, the fight instinct was triggered. This is a case of two wrongs that ended up with a child being injured, not because the dog stalked or ran down a child and attacked, but because the dog was startled and giving a warning bite in preparation to flee. The terrible thing with large dog bites is the amount of damage that can be done in a very brief and "minor" bite, especially with the location of the bite.
> IMO, the important thing regarding keeping the dog would be: cause of behavior leading up to the bite, whether there is an injury or pain, or illness going on, and how did he act immediately afterwards. Many times, when a dog bites after being startled, they look and act contrite and will be as friendly as they usually are within a very short period of time. If he continues to cower, growl, or tries to escape contact from this child or any other children, then I would not feel that he should remain in this time of situation. It would not be healthy for him or any other kids.
> I guess I am less prone to "blame the dog", and whenever my kids have come running with scrapes, scratches, etc... I have always asked "what did YOU do to make this happen?" Thankfully, none of these incidents were serious enough to need stitches (on the kids, I on the other hand had some swell punctures from a drop kick sized dog in my calf).
> You may be tempted to react swiftly in cases such as these, however I would urge you to stop, collect all the evidence, and then make a logical decision. You can always put the dog down later, but you won't be able to bring him back if you should find out that the dog really wasn't to blame.


Totally agree with this.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

If this had happened at my house the dog would have been dead before the ambulance arrived!


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Lonnie Spann said:


> If this had happened at my house the dog would have been dead before the ambulance arrived!


wow. I am truely saddened by this comment.


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## Nor_Cal_Angler (Jul 3, 2008)

Had a similar situation, in my family, with my fathers black. She was about 5 and was the best dog a die hard hunting man could ask for. She was so well behaved, loving, gentle, obedient and pulled off some amazing field work. I was maybe 12 so my brother would have had to be 8 and out of no where we hear bark bark, and loud screams followed by crying out back. Mom and Dad go out side to find my brother holding his face with blood all over and Kate, about 5 feet away tail tucked looking as if she knew something was very wrong, almost as if she was scared. Aaron was scoped up and taken in by mom and dad and 14 stitches later he as home. He was asked by mom and dad, nurses and doctors what happened and he repeated over and over that Kate bit him, that is all he would say. 

Long story short, dad isolated Kate and gave her, her chance.....THANK GOD....because it took about a week for Aaron to FESS up...he was picking on her....he had been twisting her ear for about a week prior off and on....and she had tolerated it for that week...finally she had had enough and she defended herself. 

Kate NEVER EVER again showed even the slightest sign of aggression (except towards that German Sheppard that got lose and came after my mother) and thank god my brother fessed up because dad was ready to "take her away" as much as it would have broke his heart I sincerely believe that Kate wouldn't have made it much longer in our household. 

Anyways, food for thought......it reminds me of the "kids do the darndest things"


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## cocdawg (Mar 9, 2013)

Update Guys n Gals-
Dog is at the vets getting checked. Not sure what/if anything he will find. Although, I'm praying for some answers for this family. He is a damn good dog!!! Something had to go wrong somewhere. Grandma (breeder) is devastated. She says she's giving up breeding all together. It's still early and things could change but right now she's a wreck bc she is taking all the blame. He has shown no signs of aggression since the accident. From my understanding, after the bite, he seemed "confused", then tucked his tail and moved to a back bedroom and finally after all the chaos settled seemed back to his self before ambulance arrived. The kids are doing better but mom and dad are still searching for answers. Hopefully they will have answers soon. 

BTW-to the OP who told the story about his brother twisting the dogs ear-that wasn't the case here. Mom was watching the entire episode. Could she have done something earlier in the day or days prior? Sure, I guess. But at the time of the accident she wasn't doing anything she hasn't done for 3-4 years.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

It’s always a tough situation to be in and I hope to not ever be there.You get pressure from the spouse, grandparents, siblings etc. etc. and most times none of them KNOW the dog like YOU do.

More often than not the dog is provoked. Most animals don’t just snap for no good reason.

Immediate investigation usually reveals whether or not it was ‘aggressive behavior’ or bought on by ‘provocation’/ (And as a poster said earlier, sometimes not so immediate) so it’s not wise to be so quick to put the dog down.

I’ve thought about this over and over and can only speculate what I would do considering the large number of reasons why such a thing could occur.

I suppose I’ll cross that bridge when I get there, but pray til then, to never see that bridge.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

wheelhorse said:


> wow. I am truely saddened by this comment.


If that comment saddens you then many of my other comments would too. Sorry, this was a bad situation but I love my family more than I love my dogs. 

Lonnie Spann


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

firehouselabs said:


> i would give the dog some benefit of doubt. Children are totally unpredictable and usually not so "innocent". Dogs will react with fight or flight, and in this case, with a child leaning over a dog, the fight instinct was triggered. This is a case of two wrongs that ended up with a child being injured, not because the dog stalked or ran down a child and attacked, but because the dog was startled and giving a warning bite in preparation to flee. The terrible thing with large dog bites is the amount of damage that can be done in a very brief and "minor" bite, especially with the location of the bite.
> Imo, the important thing regarding keeping the dog would be: Cause of behavior leading up to the bite, whether there is an injury or pain, or illness going on, and how did he act immediately afterwards. Many times, when a dog bites after being startled, they look and act contrite and will be as friendly as they usually are within a very short period of time. If he continues to cower, growl, or tries to escape contact from this child or any other children, then i would not feel that he should remain in this time of situation. It would not be healthy for him or any other kids.
> I guess i am less prone to "blame the dog", and whenever my kids have come running with scrapes, scratches, etc... I have always asked "what did you do to make this happen?" thankfully, none of these incidents were serious enough to need stitches (on the kids, i on the other hand had some swell punctures from a drop kick sized dog in my calf).
> You may be tempted to react swiftly in cases such as these, however i would urge you to stop, collect all the evidence, and then make a logical decision. You can always put the dog down later, but you won't be able to bring him back if you should find out that the dog really wasn't to blame.


this is your answer


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Lonnie Spann said:


> If that comment saddens you then many of my other comments would too. Sorry, this was a bad situation but I love my family more than I love my dogs.
> 
> Lonnie Spann


I would direct you to Firehouse Labs response.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Lonnie Spann said:


> If that comment saddens you then many of my other comments would too. Sorry, this was a bad situation but I love my family more than I love my dogs.
> 
> Lonnie Spann


The owners and family member/grandmother breeder of the Golden Retriever all love their family and want to do the best
for them...especially the children. 

Hopefully it's a win-win resolution for all..including the dog. As said, a hasty decision..then finding out it was the wrong one that cannot be undone..would make things even worse, and heartbreaking all over again. 

Please give the family credit for taking care in their decisions..

Judy


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## Jen Marenich (Jan 20, 2013)

I would feel that even if I couldn't trust the dog with kids grabbing/climbing on him. He may be a great match for someone without children, that is aware of the potential for an issue and is able to be proactive. For example, my dogs are friendly, but they are still dogs (animals) If there are going to be children around that I don't trust to treat the dogs respectfully, the dogs get kennelled up. Better, and more fair to everyone involved, to not push anybody to their limit.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

So what did they find out about the dog's health? Any decisions?


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

If a thyroid was done, I think that takes a few days to get back? ..last time we had it done anyway. TBD full panel.. too, any bloodwork a day or two. 

Facebook, Sunfire Golden Retrievers...a few owners (located all over) are having issues with their dogs, great lameness, not wanting to eat, lethargic..and posting finding out Lyme etc positive and treating. This time of year is the start of the season for the things  ..but they come out in winter on warm days too. 

Dogs being seen at our vet office here are also coming up positive for Anaplasmosis, Lyme, RMSF etc.. possibility for this dog, too. Certainly worth checking on. Do hope it is not a tumor..type of issue. 

Judy


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## cocdawg (Mar 9, 2013)

Judy is correct, all bloodwork is not back. Vet did say he has hearing loss and did more testing on that to see what the cause may be. I say all bloodwork isn't back but I coul be wrong. We got busy at work yesterday and I didn't talk with the family. My wife did say that the little girl is doing much better as far as not worrying what kids at school might say about her face. This has been a huge hurdle to overcome. I will try and contact her dad today and find out more details. I had lunch with the vet yesterday but didn't ask any questions. I wasn't sure if vets were like our docs and not give out info to just anyone. Since we are fairly close I didn't want to put him in an awkward situation.


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## Spring (Mar 10, 2012)

A tragic situation, but one thing that likely will come into play with the dog is the legal liability of the owner. What if the dog bit someone else and that person decided to sue? Think they might bring up the fact that the dog had bitten someone previously, that the owner knew it, and then continued to let the dog be around people? You hate to have to look at things from a legal and liability perspective, but that's the world we're in.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

There is an antibiotics that can cause loss of hearing..some FT dogs have had it happen. Only mentioning FT dogs because it has ruined some careers.. Will look to see which one it is, if I can find it. 

Perhaps someone on RTF might know? 

Has he had any for ear issues? ..and had ear drops/antibiotics? 

Very young for hearing loss..so wondering. 

Judy


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Good thought Judy, hearing loss (can be permanent) is a side effect of some of the very common ear drops, like Oto-max to name one.
My senior golden went from normal hearing to stone deaf in about 48 hours with the ear drops. Luckily we caught it quickly, flushed out his ears, and almost all of his hearing was restored.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Hi...wondering if there are any updates? Is the family doing ok..and the pup? 

Judy


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