# Additional breed eligible to enter AKC retriever hunt tests



## K.Wilson (Feb 9, 2005)

This is probably oldy moldy news -- sorry if that's the case! AKC's Board will be further discussing adding German Shorthaired Pointers, German Wirehaired Pointers, Vizslas, and Weimaraners to the list of breeds eligible to enter retriever hunting tests at their August meeting. This is the updated list of eligible breeds from http://www.akc.org/events/hunting_te...ble_breeds.cfm

Retriever Hunting Tests

Eligible Breeds

All dogs six months of age or older from the following breeds are eligible to participate in Retriever Hunting Tests:
AKC Recognized Breeds
American Water Spaniels (effective 4/1/11)
Chesapeake Retrievers
Curly-Coated Retrievers
Flat-Coated Retrievers
Golden Retrievers
Labrador Retrievers
Irish Water Spaniels
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers
Spinone Italiano (effective 7/1/11)
Standard Poodles
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon (effective 7/1/11)


Dogs of these breeds recorded with the Purebred Alternative Listing Program/Indefinite Listing Privilege (PAL/ILP) or dogs with Conditional registration are eligible to participate.

Spayed and neutered dogs are eligible to participate.

Bitches in season are not eligible to participate.

Dogs with Limited Registration are eligible to participate.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Oh Please....
Those breeds have their own ointing hunt tests, why have them involved in retriever tests. Unbelievable what they'll do next.


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## Udder Brudder (Jan 15, 2003)

Those with pointing retrievers must get in on their game as well...Just kidding....Pat


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

German Shorthaired Pointers, German Wirehaired Pointers, Vizslas, and Weimaraners

What a joke the only one of the group that could waterfowl hunt in ice water would be the GWP -- amazing what AKC will do for dollar$.



.


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

Can Dachsunds swim??


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

Beagles are huntin dawgs! LOL. I love mine, but I dont want to get her in a test.


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## J.D. Penn (Feb 3, 2010)

Doc E said:


> German Shorthaired Pointers, German Wirehaired Pointers, Vizslas, and Weimaraners
> 
> What a joke the only one of the group that could waterfowl hunt in ice water would be the GWP -- amazing what AKC will do for dollar$.
> 
> ...



Theres alot of folks starting to waterfowl hunt with GSPs.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't care one way or another...where's all the hatred coming from? We all having working dogs. It's suppose to be a game, suppose to be fun. 

Undies not bunched up regards,

FOM


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

I'll take ANYBODY with a GSP on a diver hunt in December just to watch. Retrieving is retrieving regards!!!!!!!!!! Remember I live in Wisconsin


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## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

Assume there are parts of the US where it is quite mild during duck hunting? It is also cold in northern Europe during hunting season - this is where these dogs were developed. Of course the pointing Labs should be allowed in the pointing dog tests


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## mnduckhunter (May 4, 2010)

My wife's Doxie can swim and jump of docks. She will even retrieve a Avery ATB teal.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I trained a gsp to hunt divers for a guy. Didn't do too bad. Wore to vests but did ok. Would not trade him for a lab though 


/paul


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Still waiting for the JRT's to be allowed to play...oh and BBG's cat.....



Kidding, kidding........


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

The German pointing breeds are not labled POINTERS in Germany,it's a category they fall into. They also are heavily relied upon in Germany/europe to do a lot of retriever work. if anyone were to review the german breed tests they would find a great deal of the scoring based on retrieving.There are 3 mandatory duck retrieves.
The AKC would not accept 'retriever' along with 'pointer' in the name - one or the other - so pointer was chosen. 
No dog cleans up like a retriever and they are great in fridgid waters. The German breeds,if bred correctly handle nicely, don't have an adversion to cold water and love to retrieve.
I would not use a DK or GSP in the colder states as the only dog at the hunt.
My DKs have made multiple retrieves here in upstate NY w/o any issues and no vest. But, we are pond jumpers so we keep moving.

I like the idea of having them compete in this venue - I like seeing the GSP do more than field - they were bred to be versatile and this venue gives the owner one more versatile option.

Agreed, AKC is looking for more $$$$.

Don't GSPs compete in HRC?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Spinone Italiano...I thought that was one of the dessert specials at Wolfgang Puck's


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

pixiebee said:


> The German pointing breeds are not labled POINTERS in Germany,it's a category they fall into. They also are heavily relied upon in Germany/europe to do a lot of retriever work. if anyone were to review the german breed tests they would find a great deal of the scoring based on retrieving.There are 3 mandatory duck retrieves.
> The AKC would not accept 'retriever' along with 'pointer' in the name - one or the other - so pointer was chosen.
> No dog cleans up like a retriever and they are great in fridgid waters. The German breeds,if bred correctly handle nicely, don't have an adversion to cold water and love to retrieve.
> I would not use a DK or GSP in the colder states as the only dog at the hunt.
> ...


YES GSP do run HRC and I have seen some nice ones


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

What levels are you seeing them run in?
Would you know which training method they are using?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Spinone Italiano...I thought that was one of the dessert specials at Wolfgang Puck's


Spinoni are fantastic versatile hunting dogs. I am glad they are allowed finally to run RHTs. 

Because of the way they hunt, they don't typically do that well at the upper levels of the pointing dog tests, since judges are used to wide ranging pointers and Spinoni are supposed to stay closer in gun range. They can be very good waterfowl dogs as well but they will seem slow when compared to labs. NAVHDA tests are very interesting to watch and quite challenging.

I would not see them taking home any colors in a FT, but they could do well in both pointing dog and retriever HTs and if you just were going to grab a shotgun and go hunt whatever comes up in season, you could not ask for a better all around dog.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

I know one GSP that has its HRCH here in Canada, there may be more. Just started to work with a Vizsla and a GSP. Not having too much worry with the retriever part but I need to be educated on the ponting aspects.


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## podunkccrs (Nov 3, 2008)

Do you think the retrieves will get to run the spaniel tests?


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm against it until I get to run my pointing lab in the pointer games. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

I for one am glad that AKC is allowing these non standard retrieving breeds into the Hunt Test arena. After watching the past couple years of entries slowly falling, especially in the lower Junior and Senior levels, having more available breeds for entries is great for the sport. These dogs are still having to run against a standard so if they can't do the work then that's it.

After watching a great little American Water Spaniel at our clubs Master test a couple weekends back and now seeing that that dog is titled and going to the National, I'm excited that there are dogs not previously identified as retrievers running the games. These breeds added are "Versatile" breeds and regardless of their abilities to handle cold weather, as some have mentioned, they're still retrieving. I've seen quite a few labs that wouldn't stand 15 minutes even in a field layout blind in December without wearing a vest.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Socks said:


> I'm against it until I get to run my pointing lab in the pointer games. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Write the AKC Performance Events or the applicable AKC breed club and let your interests be known.

There's been interest expressed to both the AKC and to the Parent Club in allowing the Boykin Spaniels to follow the American Water Spaniel in participating in Retriever Hunt Tests.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

podunkccrs said:


> Do you think the retrieves will get to run the spaniel tests?


Retrievers are allowed to run in a different venue now - not 100% sure which one it is, but it was just recently posted here.

FOM


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I'm looking forward to seeing them and meeting new people. Should be a real hoot.
Bring em on.
Sue


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

Waiting for them to get the boykin spaniels on board.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

I remember about a couple of hundred years ago judging a NAHRA test with Allan Black and Linda Fulks came prancing (she was a dancer) out of the holding blind with a Dalmation. I was pretty sure that I'd been in the sun too long but Alan had the same look on his face. All 3 of us stood there laughing at each other for a good 5 mnutes before we could get it together enough to call for the birds. Dern dog did a really great job - couldn't swim for beans though. No telling what she would have been able to do with a real dog and the same time and energy.
As the jaintor here says- "It's just dawgs picking up stuff- or not"

Live and let live regards

Bubba


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm of the opinion that anyone who has a pointing breed would need to have a real balanced training method to make this work - if they wanted an effective hunting pointing dog.
pointing breeds are bred to use their nose more and eyes less.
The tests,if I'm not mistaken, require a lot of marking which requires extensive training in skills and obedience. This may create a dog who becomes less willing to work independently and less willing to range out of gun range.

All in all - I like the tests and think they really extend what an owner and dog can achieve.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

hey ,
I saw a Dalamtion as well many many moons ago when I ran a NAHRA test I believe by Lacrosse ,Wi. area. I don't recall how well it did. I thought that I was in the wrong place at first. LOL
Sue


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## RetrieverLuvr (Jun 28, 2010)

I say let em! Why not! Saw a Gordon Setter run in Finished HRC and she rocked, should have her HRCH title soon I am sure! What about the GRHRCH Springer? Is he not deserving because he isn't a "retriever".

I hate discrimination when it relates to humans. Shouldn't be any different in dogs. If people want to spend their $$ supporting our hunt tests let em! Clubs are hurting for $$ due to low entries!

I think you guys have to remember that AKC is a business. It needs $$ to support it. Its not a volunteer organization. They do a TON for our dogs. If any of you ever get a chance to go to a delegate meeting I would suggest it. It will show you what really goes on and how AKC is hurting for $$ they are making decisions based on the economy and they are business decisions. 

I welcome any and all breeds that want to participate in our hunting retriever tests.


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## Tim Lawrence (Feb 18, 2008)

Rob Paye said:


> I'll take ANYBODY with a GSP on a diver hunt in December just to watch. Retrieving is retrieving regards!!!!!!!!!! Remember I live in Wisconsin


I'm in on that also. Pointer swimming in the surf near San Fran diver hunting. A friend of mine hunts a GSP in the first couple weeks of duck season then puts him in the reserve fleet after having a episode of hypothermia with his GSP 2 years ago. But hey if you hunt a warmer climate I'm sure you can get away with it.


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## fjwrt (Aug 29, 2008)

I am sure this will ruffle some feathers, but why is any hunting breed excluded? 

almost all people who actually hunt with their dog, expect them to retrieve the game, right?

I have a friend who has a started title on his GSP and even the UKC people would give him funny looks


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Socks said:


> I'm against it until I get to run my pointing lab in the pointer games. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Does seem a bit hypocritical


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

Im not sure why any one would be against this...... First of all its not like HTs are a competition so other than the possibility that there might actually be some new faces at the events what is it that really bothers ya'll. They are talking about Versitile dogs here which are expected to retrieve in most testing venues anyways. ts not like they are talking about FT setters and pointers that have never had a bird in their mouth.

And as far as your pointing lab being involved in the pointing dog events I would love to see it. But until the PL becomes its own breed, it is still a lab and considered a flusher/retriever. But write some letters and contact a some people and get enough intrest and it might happen. After all the AKC IS just looking for a buck.......

Jim


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## AWSUE (Aug 10, 2010)

TroyFeeken said:


> I for one am glad that AKC is allowing these non standard retrieving breeds into the Hunt Test arena. After watching the past couple years of entries slowly falling, especially in the lower Junior and Senior levels, having more available breeds for entries is great for the sport. These dogs are still having to run against a standard so if they can't do the work then that's it.
> 
> After watching a great little American Water Spaniel at our clubs Master test a couple weekends back and now seeing that that dog is titled and going to the National, I'm excited that there are dogs not previously identified as retrievers running the games. These breeds added are "Versatile" breeds and regardless of their abilities to handle cold weather, as some have mentioned, they're still retrieving. I've seen quite a few labs that wouldn't stand 15 minutes even in a field layout blind in December without wearing a vest.


Thanks for the kind words. I couldn't have been happier with his performance that weekend. He is still a work in progress - we are both still learning.
AWSUE


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Why would you only limit it to specific pointing breeds and not open it up to all? I would imagine that if its opened to GPSs,vizsas, and weims, a would think that the pointer and setter people would not understand it. So either blow it wide open or leave it closed, don't ride the fence.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

jimmyp said:


> Im not sure why any one would be against this...... First of all its not like HTs are a competition so other than the possibility that there might actually be some new faces at the events what is it that really bothers ya'll. They are talking about Versitile dogs here which are expected to retrieve in most testing venues anyways. ts not like they are talking about FT setters and pointers that have never had a bird in their mouth.
> 
> And as far as your pointing lab being involved in the pointing dog events I would love to see it. But until the PL becomes its own breed, it is still a lab and considered a flusher/retriever. But write some letters and contact a some people and get enough intrest and it might happen. After all the AKC IS just looking for a buck.......
> 
> Jim


I don't see the logic here. In the first paragraph you're basically stating that if the dog can do the work let them in and prove it. In the next paragraph you stating that until a rule change is done then a PL shouldn't be able to play in different games. Who says my dog isn't a versatile dog and who says GSP's are? Yeah I know, they just are is the typical response I get.

I run HRC and at the last test I ran there was a GSP that passed a Finished test that day and me and my dog didn't. The GSP could do the work. All I'm saying is give the PL people a chance to let the dogwork prove it's self. Heck, I couldn't care less if a english pointer became a retriever FC as long as the work is good and isn't changed to accomodate different breeds.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

If you want PLs to play the other pointing games you will need to let the AKC know. No one is saying it can't be done in the future, but someone has to get the ball rolling!

Right now the AKC has said the other breeds can playing in our venue....go petition them to allow the PLs to play in the other venues...to say they can't play because you can't is a little silly...I'm sure AKC will listen.

FOM


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## AWSUE (Aug 10, 2010)

The IWS parent club petitioned AKC to allow the IWS to run in spaniel tests. Then, the AWS parent club petitioned AKC to allow the AWS to run in retriever tests. Not sure what followed after that but I think it is safe to assume that the requests for the GWP and Spinone came from the parent clubs. The VP for Performance Events took our request to the AKC Board of Directors. It was the Board that had to approve it.

My suggestion would be to go to your parent club if you want your breed to be able to "cross-over". Depending on the parent club.......I suppose it could listen, agree and go to AKC with the request OR it could be a battle. But, I think that AKC needs the parent club to make the request.

AWSUE


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Karen posted this to another site and I have feelings about it.....

Pointers and flushers already have specific events which cater to those breeds and include retrieving tests. If somebody wants a hunting dog AKC test, make a new venue which is for that purpose. 

AKC Retriever Hunt Tests should be just that, for registered AKC Retrievers. 

Lets change the name of this site to Hunting Dog Training Forum while we're at it......


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

AWSUE said:


> The IWS parent club petitioned AKC to allow the IWS to run in spaniel tests. Then, the AWS parent club petitioned AKC to allow the AWS to run in retriever tests. Not sure what followed after that but I think it is safe to assume that the requests for the GWP and Spinone came from the parent clubs. The VP for Performance Events took our request to the AKC Board of Directors. It was the Board that had to approve it.
> 
> My suggestion would be to go to your parent club if you want your breed to be able to "cross-over". Depending on the parent club.......I suppose it could listen, agree and go to AKC with the request OR it could be a battle. But, I think that AKC needs the parent club to make the request.
> 
> AWSUE


Exactly - see post #23 - parent club starts the ball rolling with AKC, and must initiate the request - if you are truly motivated follow up -

*American Pointer Club, Inc.*
www.americanpointerclub.org


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

FOM said:


> If you want PLs to play the other pointing games you will need to let the AKC know. No one is saying it can't be done in the future, but someone has to get the ball rolling!
> 
> Right now the AKC has said the other breeds can playing in our venue....go petition them to allow the PLs to play in the other venues...to say they can't play because you can't is a little silly...I'm sure AKC will listen.
> 
> FOM


I perhaps need to clarify my arguement, sense most on here don't know me personally.....

My favorite method of proving a point, is to take a point that is somewhat similar, and make the person give me all the reasons that the "similar point" should be accepted let them argue till they are blue in the face and then say, you are right, I agree with everything you said, using that same logic and many of the same reasons you just gave, doesn't that make "original point" also valid. (example, tell a smoker that I think Marijauna should be legalized, let them tell me why it shouldn't be, then agree and say so why do you choose to do something that is more addictive with at least as many health risks?) I am just saying that the same reasons everyone are giving that GSP, GWP etc should be allowed in retriever tests, PLs should be allowed in the other games. BTW, we don't want to be a seperate breed. Just a variation within the breed. Nothing in the breed history pigeon holes labs as flushers. They were developed to be retrievers and then people started to use them for upland, but no distinction between flushing and pointing was made.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> I perhaps need to clarify my arguement, sense most on here don't know me personally.....
> 
> My favorite method of proving a point, is to take a point that is somewhat similar, and make the person give me all the reasons that the "similar point" should be accepted let them argue till they are blue in the face and then say, you are right, I agree with everything you said, using that same logic and many of the same reasons you just gave, doesn't that make "original point" also valid. (example, tell a smoker that I think Marijauna should be legalized, let them tell me why it shouldn't be, then agree and say so why do you choose to do something that is more addictive with at least as many health risks?) I am just saying that the same reasons everyone are giving that GSP, GWP etc should be allowed in retriever tests, PLs should be allowed in the other games. BTW, we don't want to be a seperate breed. Just a variation within the breed. Nothing in the breed history pigeon holes labs as flushers. They were developed to be retrievers and then people started to use them for upland, but no distinction between flushing and pointing was made.


Yes, and for those variations which were made to those breeds, clubs and new venues to highlight those skills followed. Variations do not and should NOT be allowed to eligible for a specific venue which was developed to test non-slip retrievers. Plenty of games to play for pointing labs, retrieving spaniels and pointers.....I don't think anyone wants to watch the olympic downhill skiing event with snowboarders running in the same event? makes no sense. Snowboarding has its' downhill and skiers have theirs. Keeps it simple.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yes, and for those variations which were made to those breeds, clubs and new venues to highlight those skills followed. Variations do not and should NOT be allowed to eligible for a specific venue which was developed to test non-slip retrievers. Plenty of games to play for pointing labs, retrieving spaniels and pointers.....I don't think anyone wants to watch the olympic downhill skiing event with snowboarders running in the same event? makes no sense. Snowboarding has its' downhill and skiers have theirs. Keeps it simple.


I know you know more than me Paul, but most if not all the PL folks I know run AKC, UKC, and FT's for the non slip retrievers. It just that some of us want to test our dogs against the pointing standard. About the only games we're allowed to play is the APLA(which is breed specific) and gundog type challenges. We can't do NAVDA, AKC upland tests, or UKC upland tests, for various reasons. The one gundog challenge I ran in, I ran against english pointers and GSP's and my pooch did pretty good.


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## AWSUE (Aug 10, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Karen posted this to another site and I have feelings about it.....
> 
> Pointers and flushers already have specific events which cater to those breeds and include retrieving tests. If somebody wants a hunting dog AKC test, make a new venue which is for that purpose.
> 
> ...


First, the spaniel test retrieving work is not very demanding (I am trying to be nice). 
Second, the "hunting dog AKC test" has been suggested and rejected by AKC (that was years ago and maybe they are more open now)
Third, what is the logic behind "AKC Retriever Hunt Tests should be just that, for registered AKC Retrievers"? If my AWS can work up to the standard set for the retriever tests (which he has proven already) why should he not be allowed to run, pass and title?
Fourth, I do not think they should change the standards of the tests, nor should they change how the tests are judged to accommodate other breeds.
AWSUE


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I wouldn't really want to be running a german shorthair club supported hunt test and have a bunch of labs conversely. These tests were developed over many, many years to test the abilities of a pointer, not a retriever trained to point.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Acceptance into a crossover HT program starts from the Parent Clubs, whose breeders petition them to approach AKC with the proposal. The only thing AKC has done is to be less Victorian and rigid, in at least giving Parent Clubs an ear. I know for a fact that the AWS Club has been petitioning for *years*, maybe even *decades* to be allowed to participate in both Retriever and Spaniel HT. Finally, AKC is listening. 

Yes, I am sure $ has some role in their about-face, but pressure from AR groups plays a larger role in this. They opened up lure coursing to all breeds because that sport is just being *hammered* by AR groups, showing up with picket signs and all (imagine having to deal with *that* every time you go to a HT). Now is not the time to be divisive. We should be supporting our fellow hunters who wish to train and test their dogs to a more rigid retrieving standard. It strengthens the concept of the retrieving dog being a useful conservation tool, and we all benefit by the positive image of retrieving game being something *all* gundogs should do. The Birkenstock-wearing citiots at HSUS must love that hunters are taking digs at each other over this. 

As for pointing Labs being allowed to run in Pointer HT, all you have to do is get The Labrador Retriever Club to petition AKC. Probably just a simple majority of the LRC members voting "yes" is all it would take to move it to the next level.

Good luck with that. 

Lisa


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Acceptance into a crossover HT program starts from the Parent Clubs, whose breeders petition them to approach AKC with the proposal. The only thing AKC has done is to be less Victorian and rigid, in at least giving Parent Clubs an ear. I know for a fact that the AWS Club has been petitioning for *years*, maybe even *decades* to be allowed to participate in both Retriever and Spaniel HT. Finally, AKC is listening.
> 
> Yes, I am sure $ has some role in their about-face, but pressure from AR groups plays a larger role in this. They opened up lure coursing to all breeds because that sport is just being *hammered* by AR groups, showing up with picket signs and all (imagine having to deal with *that* every time you go to a HT). Now is not the time to be divisive. We should be supporting our fellow hunters who wish to train and test their dogs to a more rigid retrieving standard. It strengthens the concept of the retrieving dog being a useful conservation tool, and we all benefit by the positive image of retrieving game being something *all* gundogs should do. The Birkenstock-wearing citiots at HSUS must love that hunters are taking digs at each other over this.
> 
> ...


Good post and yeah "Good luck with that" about sums it up.


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## AWSUE (Aug 10, 2010)

Well said Lisa.


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I wouldn't really want to be running a german shorthair club supported hunt test and have a bunch of labs conversely. These tests were developed over many, many years to test the abilities of a pointer, *not a retriever trained to point*.


You were doing so good 'till that last phrase, just can't help yourself can you?
I don't know you paul and really don't want to but, darn it all you nailed it there paul, we train them to point, and I thought no one would ever find out, you sir are a genius. 
Do you know how disrepectful you are, how arrogant you come across, do you have a clue ?

"They point because they are afraid of the bird" was quite funny too. 

Where do you get those opinions and those funny lines ?

Breed prejudice and within breed prejudice regards, Frank


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Paco said:


> You were doing so good 'till that last phrase, just can't help yourself can you?
> I don't know you paul and really don't want to but, darn it all you nailed it there paul, we train them to point, and I thought no one would ever find out, you sir are a genius.
> Do you know how disrepectful you are, how arrogant you come across, do you have a clue ?
> 
> ...


Lighten up and loosen your belt a little. 

Anyways, No pointing labs in GSP Pointing trials and no flushers and mushers in Retriever trials. They started out separate for a reason.

Wonder what I'd do if I got all up tight everytime someone said my Chessies stink on this forum?


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

jimmyp said:


> But until the PL becomes its own breed, it is still a lab *and considered a flusher/retriever*.
> 
> Jim


Incorrect. Labs are considered* retrievers* -- period. They are *not* described as either flushers or pointers.



.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> not a retriever *trained to point*.


Many PLs point at only a very few weeks of age.
PLEASE tell me how you can "train them to point" at that age.
If you can do that you are the most amazing trainer in the entire world.



.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> They started out separate for a reason.


Tradition leads man into many pitfalls, but justifies none.



.


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Lighten up and loosen your belt a little.
> 
> Anyways, No pointing labs in GSP Pointing trials and no flushers and mushers in Retriever trials. They started out separate for a reason.
> 
> Wonder what I'd do if I got all up tight everytime someone said my Chessies stink on this forum?


I more or less agree..... 

But as long as the AKC requires that some of the versatile breeds have a certain number of retrieving points to atain an FC title I dont see how they can exclude them from the retriever games.

As far as PLs go I just dont get it....... Ill keep my labs as flushers and pick up dogs.

Jim


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Doc E said:


> Many PLs point at only a very few weeks of age.
> PLEASE tell me how you can "train them to point" at that age.
> If you can do that you are the most amazing trainer in the entire world.
> 
> ...


 
But, when someone owns a PL, they begin training it like a Pointer to encourage and reinforce the hesitation which is a point. Watching many pointer puppies this year that is some of what I see in the dog. Almost convinced myself of it. Consider the first training scenario you do with a retriever and the one you do with a pointer and analyize the end result only. (this is my opinion only and is probably wrong)

Pointer maybe a PL too?) plant a bird, let pup roam, get a nose of it. Smells it, stops, investigates, maybe shows some point. Everything from there on out encourages that point. Reinforcing that hesitation is good. 

Retriever: Take pup in yard, toss a clipped pigeon right out in front of him, maybe while holding him, maybe not depending on pup. Let it flop and praise him to death when he storms up and punishes it. 

Now, take the same two puppies. Take the bird and don't show it to the retriever. Hide it in cover or a trip basket. calmly walk pup around until he winds it. If pup hasn't seen a bird before, you are imprinting hesitation and repeated work on that drill encourages it. 

Take GSP pup out in yard, plainly visible wing clipped pigeon tossed right in front on his beak....he's maul it and not point a flopping bird just like the lab pup won't maul a hidding bird immediately because it's in cover and out of plain view. Hidden bird is a new mystery to puppy unlike exciting flopping bird which brings on the prey drive both well bred pups should have. 

We all know that pups become alot of how you start them. You start lab pup to whoa(same as whistle sit) you can get a point. Labs have great noses, no reason you cannot teach a whoa(same as whistle sit) when dog winds a bird. You can teach it to automatically stop when it winds a bird just like a GSP does more naturally. Absolutely no reason this cannot be taught. Labs are much easier to train than GSP's from what I've seen in my limited experience. (Now, now, not saying that PL's don't come right out of the box pointing like a GSP....just saying they obviously don't have the same "history" of breeding for that purpose)

To retriever folks, Consider when you get your dog close to a blind location. Maybe the wind is blowing a bit towards dog. Dog starts the wrong direction and right at the moment you are about to blow, you blow, at the same moment dog winds bird and litterally seems to rip out of his skin and is staring at the blind pile with amazing intensity and at the same time, honors your whistle sit but, isn't about to look away from the blind pile. Dog never looks back at you, the handler, doesn't even consider it because he has a nose full of blind duck. He'll stare at that for long moments. You give him his pick up/come in whistle. With great enthusiasm, your dog jumps in, picks up the blind and rolls back in tail cranking. We've seen it and you always feel like saying good dog at the moment the dog whoas, points then does not move until you allow it. 

Your dog just pointed and did the exact same thing pointers do. You just trained him differently from the start. 

Maybe I'm completely wrong?


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## Esylivin (May 5, 2008)

Just waiting on the Boykins to be accepted. Gone as far as I can go in HRC. AWSUE hope to see ya soon at some of the AKC Hunt Tests.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Esylivin said:


> Just waiting on the Boykins to be accepted. Gone as far as I can go in HRC. AWSUE hope to see ya soon at some of the AKC Hunt Tests.


 
I don't see a show title yet?


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## Esylivin (May 5, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I don't see a show title yet?


And you won't


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Esylivin said:


> Just waiting on the Boykins to be accepted. Gone as far as I can go in HRC. AWSUE hope to see ya soon at some of the AKC Hunt Tests.


Write a letter to the AKC parent club and express your interest. You might have way more influence than me... Strength in numbers...just discussing it here won't light a fire.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Esylivin said:


> And you won't


 
What about AKC spaniel tests? Don't know much about them but don't they have a JHU, SHU and MHU? (juniorhunter upland?) or something like that?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

frontier said:


> Write a letter to the AKC parent club and express your interest. You might have way more influence than me... Strength in numbers...just discussing it here won't light a fire.


 
In the breed description is clearly states in the history of the Boykin it was a waterfowl retriever and turkey hunter. 

The fact the description says, "waterfowl retriever" lends a lot of credibility.


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## Esylivin (May 5, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> What about AKC spaniel tests? Don't know much about them but don't they have a JHU, SHU and MHU? (juniorhunter upland?) or something like that?


The spaniel tests are few and far between in my area. Some say they lack substance. I love competing with the big dogs in the retriever world. AKC retriever hunt tests are readily available in my area and a lot of my friends (lab owners) are already involved. Just seems like another fun venue for me and Chief.


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## AWSUE (Aug 10, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> What about AKC spaniel tests? Don't know much about them but don't they have a JHU, SHU and MHU? (juniorhunter upland?) or something like that?


It is my understanding that AKC is using the "U" for the Irish Water Spaniel --- the first breed to cross-over.....from retriever to spaniel.


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## AWSUE (Aug 10, 2010)

Esylivin said:


> Just waiting on the Boykins to be accepted. Gone as far as I can go in HRC. AWSUE hope to see ya soon at some of the AKC Hunt Tests.


Get the parent club moving.....and/or start writing letters to AKC so you and Chief can run 'em


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Sorry, I absolutely HATE the AKC website. It is a cluster. Just went looking for the titles and found it was a Water Spaniel article I was looking at.....

Here's the rulebook for a spaniel hunt test. Looks interesting? 

http://mnhuntingspaniel.com/newsletters/Regulations_for_AKC_Hunting_Tests_for_Spaniels.pdf


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

Esylivin said:


> Just waiting on the Boykins to be accepted. Gone as far as I can go in HRC. AWSUE hope to see ya soon at some of the AKC Hunt Tests.


Me too, they are being petitioned for inclusion. Atleast that is what I was told a few months ago when I contacted the BSCBAA a few months ago, when the IWS was included.


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## AWSUE (Aug 10, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Sorry, I absolutely HATE the AKC website. It is a cluster. Just went looking for the titles and found it was a Water Spaniel article I was looking at.....
> 
> Here's the rulebook for a spaniel hunt test. Looks interesting?
> 
> http://mnhuntingspaniel.com/newsletters/Regulations_for_AKC_Hunting_Tests_for_Spaniels.pdf


Tell us what you find interesting please. Sometimes the rules and what actually happens are two different things.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

AWSUE said:


> Tell us what you find interesting please. Sometimes the rules and what actually happens are two different things.


 
I thought it looked like fun although, a previous poster said he was told the spaniel trials lack sustenance so, was looking to enter into another venue rather than participate in a spaniel event. 

I would think improving a spaniel event to the level of difficulty desired by spaniel owners would be a better first step than trying to gain acceptance into a completely different venue. At least supporting the spaniel club and breed first rather than abandoning it and pursuing strickly retriever events would be positive for the breed. 

just my first thought, been wrong before and I'll be wrong again....


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Bud said:


> Me too, they are being petitioned for inclusion. Atleast that is what I was told a few months ago when I contacted the BSCBAA a few months ago, when the IWS was included.


BSCBAA organizational issues stalled that process. 

If you want to generate renewed interest, as stated several times on this thread, contact the parent club.


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## Esylivin (May 5, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I thought it looked like fun although, a previous poster said he was told the spaniel trials lack sustenance so, was looking to enter into another venue rather than participate in a spaniel event.
> 
> I would think improving a spaniel event to the level of difficulty desired by spaniel owners would be a better first step than trying to gain acceptance into a completely different venue. At least supporting the spaniel club and breed first rather than abandoning it and pursuing strickly retriever events would be positive for the breed.
> 
> just my first thought, been wrong before and I'll be wrong again....


Paul,

I'm a waterfowl hunter. My Boykin is a Retriever first and foremost and he has proven to be one of the top in the country. I would like to showcase his retrieving talents in a different arena. I upland hunt for fun when I can't duck hunt. AKC has only recognized the Boykins since 2009 and has cubby holed them into the spaniel category. Very few Boykin owners have entered the AKC hunt tests and those that have, have blown through the tests with ease. I'm not interested in obtaining an upland title nor putting my limited time into raising the standards in spaniel hunt tests. Not that Chief can’t compete in upland he has placed in the ribbons at the Nationals in upland every year he has entered (4). I think AKC/ parent club were wrong and should have allowed the Boykins to participate in the retrieving venue from the beginning. I support the Boykins and their versatility "the dog that doesn't rock the boat". Just because they have spaniel in their name don’t cubby-hole them and limit their versatility. The precedence has been set by the American Water Spaniel, I’m going to use my efforts to push for the Boykins to follow suit and that is what I consider the best way to “support the breed”.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Esylivin said:


> Paul,
> 
> I'm a waterfowl hunter. My Boykin is a Retriever first and foremost and he has proven to be one of the top in the country. I would like to showcase his retrieving talents in a different arena. I upland hunt for fun when I can't duck hunt. AKC has only recognized the Boykins since 2009 and has cubby holed them into the spaniel category. Very few Boykin owners have entered the AKC hunt tests and those that have, have blown through the tests with ease. I'm not interested in obtaining an upland title nor putting my limited time into raising the standards in spaniel hunt tests. Not that Chief can’t compete in upland he has placed in the ribbons at the Nationals in upland every year he has entered (4). I think AKC/ parent club were wrong and should have allowed the Boykins to participate in the retrieving venue from the beginning. I support the Boykins and their versatility "the dog that doesn't rock the boat". Just because they have spaniel in their name don’t cubby-hole them and limit their versatility. The precedence has been set by the American Water Spaniel, I’m going to use my efforts to push for the Boykins to follow suit and that is what I consider the best way to “support the breed”.


Although I was not involved in BSCBAA in the beginning (only member since 2008, Health committee chair 2009-2010, and now just a lowly member again), there's no reason to demonize the Breed Club as "limiting and cubby-holing the breed". This is a recent development well received by many members of the Breed Club.

Like you, I also believe these are versatile dogs and should be allowed the same option for retriever hunt tests like the American Water Spaniel. Your support in this cause is appreciated.


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## Esylivin (May 5, 2008)

frontier said:


> Although I was not involved in BSCBAA in the beginning (only member since 2008, Health committee chair 2009-2010, and now just a lowly member again), there's no reason to demonize the Breed Club as "limiting and cubby-holing the breed". Opening retriever hunt tests up to other breeds is only a recent development.
> 
> Like you, I also believe these are versatile dogs and should be allowed the same option for retriever hunt tests like the American Water Spaniel. Your support in this cause is appreciated.


Terrie, 

I hate to disagree. The BSCBAA has brought the criticism upon themselves. Anyone who knows their history would have to agree. I believe the first rock demonizing them was thrown by you stating earlier the “BSCBAA organizational issues stalled that process.” They may not have intentionally “cubby holed and limited” the Boykins to begin with but they sure are dragging their feet to remedy the situation. 

That being said I am offering my services any way I can to help BSCBAA overcome their “organizational issues” and do what we all want and that is to best support the breed. This club is in a position to really showcase the Boykins versatility within AKC. Some think this is may not be a good thing, but it’s going to happen anyway why not have a say-so in the development and direction. Feel free to PM me with your comments.

Dan


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Esylivin said:


> Terrie,
> 
> I hate to disagree. The BSCBAA has brought the criticism upon themselves. Anyone who knows their history would have to agree. I believe the first rock demonizing them was thrown by you stating earlier the “BSCBAA organizational issues stalled that process.” They may not have intentionally “cubby holed and limited” the Boykins to begin with but they sure are dragging their feet to remedy the situation.
> 
> ...


PM sent as requested


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## maliretriever (May 28, 2006)

I think they should add to the list BELGIAN MALINOIS! I have a 7.5 yr old that has been trained as a retriever since she was 8 wks old. Hazel does AKC master work (including water) and has a been a test dog in hunt tests. She has been running field trial set-ups for several yrs, too and does nice QAA level work. BRING ON THE MALS!!!

KM


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2011)

maliretriever said:


> I think they should add to the list BELGIAN MALINOIS! I have a 7.5 yr old that has been trained as a retriever since she was 8 wks old. Hazel does AKC master work (including water) and has a been a test dog in hunt tests. She has been running field trial set-ups for several yrs, too and does nice QAA level work. BRING ON THE MALS!!!
> 
> KM


I have an idea! Take a pic, send it into akc for an ILP number and claim that it's a chessie! LOL (teasing)


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## Paula H (Aug 2, 2004)

Border Collie people tell me that their dogs could do retriever tests. That would give a new meaning to the term "swamp collie."


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## maliretriever (May 28, 2006)

A Border Collie ran NAHRA tests some yrs ago and got to their advanced level. Even got a title in that venue.

KM


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

If a handler thinks his (fill in the breed) dog can complete a test, all I would have to say is:

"Dog to line."

Why not? The tests are nothing more than seeing if a dog can complete some specific tasks. What does it matter if the dog is x breed, y breed, or Mickey the mutt?

If the dog can do the work, the dog can do the work.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

dixidawg said:


> If a handler thinks his (fill in the breed) dog can complete a test, all I would have to say is:
> 
> "Dog to line."
> 
> ...


I agree. I would rather see a well-trained german shepherd or border collie pick up ducks than some of the labs and goldens I see showing up to run tests.


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## K.Wilson (Feb 9, 2005)

Effective 9/1/2011 add these to eligible breeds:

German Shorthaired Pointer
German Wirehaired Pointer
Vizsla
Weimaraner


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

this autta help sell more raffle tickets.....


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## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> this autta help sell more raffle tickets.....


ROFL..... thats funny...... gonna have to add flourescent orange to the raffle table too!!!!

On a serious note, I could care less, as long as they can do the work.


Troy


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

I wish them good luck and like the other poster said "Dog to the line"


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

Why is there a general belief that the pointing breeds are unable to perform as good as a retriever?
Unless, I'm reading the posts wrong?


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

pixiebee said:


> Why is there a general belief that the pointing breeds are unable to perform as good as a retriever?
> Unless, I'm reading the posts wrong?


I think it's funny some people believe the judging will be lenient just because it is a non-retriever. On what planet, 'cause I wanna go there!

Lisa


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Don't worry, I'll run a few pointers next year.......Better work on the water entries on all those show dogs.....some of these pointers have spectacular water entries and will make other dogs look, well, not much like retrievers....


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## canebrake (Oct 23, 2006)

This should be interesting
My 11.5 year old GSP has probably just calmed down enough to focus on this. He is a heck of a retriever...He earned a NRD title with no training - approximately 50 yard retrieve of duck on water. May be fun to bring the old guy out to play. At least he will look pretty attempting it. 

ps- my husband is rolling his eyes  
Martha & Jack the GSP extrordinaire.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I am dead set against it but, I've met a bunch of pointer people in the last year. Was spreading the word last night. 

Three pro's called and two pointer club Presidents. They all seemed to find it "amuzing" and had never heard anything about the "push" to have them put into AKC Retriever Hunt Tests. 

One would think, two club Presidents over over 50 years combined, who are both hunt test judges, both have run field trials in younger days, at least ONE of them would have heard about this important change AKC had to make and ONE of them would have been involved in some way or another.....

Neither had even heard about the proposition.......go figure?????

SO, tell me the breed clubs were working on this and really representing the majority???? buncha nonsense.....AKC did it for money and money alone.....


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

K.Wilson said:


> Effective 9/1/2011 add these to eligible breeds:
> 
> German Shorthaired Pointer
> German Wirehaired Pointer
> ...


Looked on the AKC website and didn't see it mentioned. Is there an article on this yet?


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

mngundog said:


> Looked on the AKC website and didn't see it mentioned. Is there an article on this yet?


http://www.akc.org/events/hunting_tests/retrievers/eligible_breeds.cfm

(Back to original post #1)


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

pixiebee said:


> Why is there a general belief that the pointing breeds are unable to perform as good as a retriever?
> Unless, I'm reading the posts wrong?


I don't know...down under the GSPs compete head to head in FTs with the retrievers...I was impressed with them.

A working dog is a working dog, if they can be trained to meet the STANDARD then let them play....it isn't any worse than watching a Labrador who isn't properly trained try to complete a test it has no business being at until it is ready....

If you are in CO, please come to PPRC run your pointers!! And if any pointer folks are in the Colorado Springs area and want to train or learn about Retriever HTs/FTs feel free to PM me, I'll get you hooked up.

FOM


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

frontier said:


> http://www.akc.org/events/hunting_tests/retrievers/eligible_breeds.cfm
> 
> (Back to original post #1)


Thanks for the link. I clicked on the one in post #1 and didn't get anything, then a check under the news on the AKC website and it wasn't mentioned.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

I did a youtube search and found a lot of videos on HTs.

Nice test.

Now, to go and watch a few in the NY area.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

pixiebee said:


> I did a youtube search and found a lot of videos on HTs.
> 
> Nice test.
> 
> Now, to go and watch a few in the NY area.


Black Creek Retriever Club has 2 Spinone Italiano's entered in their Jr. Tests 9/3 and 9/4 in Berne, NY.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

In Berne??? really?
Can I just show up or do we have tolet someone know first?
Thanks for the info


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

What does this mean for the Master National? Even tho it will take some years for a significant number of the newer breeds to attain the master level, a "significant" number of additional entries would be quite challenging at the very least.

Debbie


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Codatango said:


> What does this mean for the Master National? Even tho it will take some years for a significant number of the newer breeds to attain the master level, a "significant" number of additional entries would be quite challenging at the very least.
> 
> Debbie


What's "significant?" According to the latest post of Master National qualifiers for 2011,
only "1" poodle, "3" tollers, and "1" American Water Spaniel qualified. Kudos and Good Luck at the Master National if entered.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

pixiebee said:


> In Berne??? really?
> Can I just show up or do we have tolet someone know first?
> Thanks for the info


Entries are open on EntryExpress.net. You can just show up to watch. If you are properly attired and willing to work, we offer free lunch and water


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## agengo02 (Nov 3, 2009)

They just cut out a large portion of hunters by not allowing non registered or mixed/different breeds in to compete. I mean if you pay the entry, why not right? 

Oh and the AKC is a business so they will make decisions based on whether it is profitable or not. Welcome to America.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

frontier said:


> What's "significant?" According to the latest post of Master National qualifiers for 2011,
> only "1" poodle, "2" tollers, and "1" American Water Spaniel qualified. Kudos and Good Luck at the Master National if entered.


I don't know how well the new breeds will compete in the trials, but in the field I think those new dogs listed outnumber the three you mentioned probably 100 to 1. I know pheasant hunting I probably seen 1000 GSPs and I can recall 1 poodle, and don't think I have seen a toller.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

While it looks ok on paper to have these Continental pointing breeds in a retriever test I doubt any will go past SH at the best.Counting to three would be tough.They are nose oriented not sight oriented like Labs,Goldens, Chessies, Tollers, etc are.I started out with GSP in NAVHDA in the early '70s and progressed to FT with them later on (different dogs).Completely different mentality between retrieving while hunting and testing. A hunting buddy have a Chief son at the time and I would marvel at the distances he could retrieve.I got into labs when I started trialing my GSPs and mostly did waterfowling.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

agengo02 said:


> They just cut out a large portion of hunters by not allowing non registered or mixed/different breeds in to compete. I mean if you pay the entry, why not right?
> 
> Oh and the AKC is a business so they will make decisions based on whether it is profitable or not. Welcome to America.


There is the option of Purebred Alternative Listing. If you are willing to spay/neuter your "he/she looks like a ****", you can play. I run my purebred lab under a PAL Reg.


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## canebrake (Oct 23, 2006)

Jeff
My husband and I are members of GSPCA. We have labs and GSPs too (he now competes in American Field trials pointing). There was huge discussion on this when it was proposed to AKC. My argument to the GSP folks was have they ever even been to a HT for retrievers. One of our dogs breeder has upwards of 15 Dual Champion GSPs that she has bred. She was not in favor of the proposal and gave some great arguments. While there are some phenomenal GSPs (and other breeds) competing, I tend to agree the numbers competing at MH level in retrieving may be low JMO- I  would love to see a GSP compete at MH level as they really are phenomenal dogs. My husband trained his GSP for doubles on land when he was a young dog. Really cool to watch. I just wish I had more time and money to spend with my labs in the field. 

-Martha Veatch


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Stay tuned.......

What about a GSP Club sponsored Hunt Test? Thoughts? Maybe a double JH one weekend? 

You think anyone would attend? Open to all breeds of course.....


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Stay tuned.......
> 
> What about a GSP Club sponsored Hunt Test? Thoughts? Maybe a double JH one weekend?
> 
> You think anyone would attend?


I know of a local pro that has a kennel full of GSP's that has been dying to run AKC Retriever HT. Although, he is in the midwest. One GSP pointer Master Hunter of his I've trained around from time to time "fo sure" would have a good shot at a SH title.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Stay tuned.......
> 
> What about a GSP Club sponsored Hunt Test? Thoughts? Maybe a double JH one weekend?
> 
> You think anyone would attend? Open to all breeds of course.....


It's possible and a very good suggestion. Our RC President shares land leases with a NAVDA group. Our Club has included "those" people in seminars and such. My opinion is, I support sporting dog games.


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## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

As some of you may be aware in Australia ALL breeds of gundog compete in our field trials
(comes from a small population). From personal experience (I have one titled bitch and one dog half way there) - take a well bred GSP and train it following one of the standard US retriever programes, Lardy, Evan, et al. Trial in the warmer months and these dogs can beat the best Labs. Takes longer, extreme dedication and perhaps a masochistic streak! Currently there are 3 or 4 GSP competing in All Age with their titles and one with a dual field title - retrieving and upland hunting (very unusual).

We have our National coming up and I would espect 4 or 5 GSPs out of 50 plus entries so they are not a threat to the retrievers yet!

So good luck to those on this forum who decide to give it a go.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

cpmm665 said:


> It's possible and a very good suggestion. Our RC President shares land leases with a NAVDA group. Our Club has included "those" people in seminars and such. My opinion is, I support sporting dog games.


 
possibility of more than a suggestion after a few discussions today....just for fun...stay tuned.....(I'm opposed to it but, WTH? just a JH....like I said, good for raffle ticket sales and a few GSP's I know have 10X better water entries than most retrievers) ..... this should be fun....


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Per the AKC retriever HT rules, can a non-retriever breed club offer a retriever HT? If a breed is allowed to run retriever HT, do their clubs automatically become retriever clubs then? *"Approval for licensed or member club Hunting Tests may be issued to clubs formed for the improvement of the several breeds of Retrievers or to clubs formed for the
improvement of a single Retriever breed."* As well, other than a club's first test, at least two test levels must be offered for a licensed HT. 

I'm not suggesting anything disparaging about the breeds recently allowed to run retriever HT or their clubs, I am, however, wondering how or if this changes some of the rules for retriever HT to be held by non-retriever clubs. 

Section 1. Eligibility of Clubs to Hold Hunting
Tests. The Board of Directors of the American Kennel
Club may, at its discretion, *grant permission to Retriever
clubs *to hold Hunting Tests, which Hunting Tests shall be
governed by such Rules and Regulations as from time to
time shall be determined by the Board of Directors.

Section 2. Rules Applying To Registration and
Discipline. All of AKC’s Rules Applying to Registration
and Discipline shall apply to all AKC sanctioned, licensed
and member club hunting tests.

Section 3. Making Application. A Retriever club that
meets all the requirements of the American Kennel Club®
and wishes to hold a Hunting Test at which Qualifying
scores toward titles may be awarded, must make application
to The American Kennel Club on the form provided
for permission to hold a Hunting Test. If the club is not
a member of The American Kennel Club, it shall pay a
license fee for the privilege of holding such event, the
amount of which shall be determined by the Board of
Directors of The American Kennel Club. Applications for
AKC licensed and member club Retriever Hunting Tests
must be received at least three (3) months prior to the
closing date. At present, the license fee for a Hunting Test
is $25.00. No fee is required of an AKC member club for the
first Hunting Test held within a calendar year, but an application
for a second Hunting Test within that calendar year
must be accompanied by a fee of $15.00.
Each club making application to the American Kennel
Club to hold either a member or licensed Hunting Test
must submit, as part of the application, a “Disaster and
Emergency Plan.”
Approval for licensed or member club Hunting Tests
may be issued to clubs formed for the improvement of the
several breeds of Retrievers or to clubs formed for the
improvement of a single Retriever breed.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

As in most venues the 'puppy' tests get the most entries. There is a big leap from junior to senior to master in the minds of dog owners. 
Pointing dogs are more nose than eyes. Not a terrible obstacle to overcome with proper training. Which is where most pointing dog owners will have issues - balancing the training. Then there are the pointing dogs that will need to be "picked" to compete - enough drive,cooperation and water love could be an issue, as well as too much drive - but I think retreivers are like this,too.
I run my dogs in the German system - in a young dog natural abilty breeding test there is a 60-100 yard water blind, a mark with a gun shot hitting the water in front of the dog and a duck search,all are mandatory retrieve to hand.NAVHDA UT has a duck search,no mandatory retrieve, walking at heel to the blind,remaining by the blind with hunter out of sight and 2 shots fired and steadiness by the blind where there are 4 shots fired with a duck mark with retrieve.
No doubles,triples, the atmosphere is less intense,I think, than a ret. HT for several reasons.

My point is, with pointing dogs bred and tested for versatility there should be little to no issues in ret. HTs. 
I find it interesting that I am hearing an overwhelming YES to entering the ret HTs with GSPs but when I asked which program they will be following in order to prepare the dog - there is dead silence.
Many of the GSP owners I am speaking to claim they don't even FF and/or are using low force/pressure methods - relying on the dog's cooperation.

GSPs and other pointing breeds were originally bred to be versatile,some have bred away from this but it is easy to breed back to it.

I may be a lousy trainer but I will attempt the ret HTs.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Not stirring the pot here, but you guys do realize that GSP's run in UKC hunt tests already right? I've seen a GSP pass a finished test. Just sayin'. And before anyone starts saying that UKC isn't the AKC blah blah blah, just don't start because it's not worth arguing.


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

German Short Hairs where bred to do it all. I have bred some and they where hunted to do it all. My wife says the girl in my avatar is a GSP with a tail. She is out of NFC Storms lines. Let them play. I would like to see More German dogs play. My friend has a Rottie that is by far the best Squirrel dog I have ever hunted with. Shepards retrieve, Mals are real good at it, but they would probaly ene up biting the judges.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

Saw a nice Gordon Setter run finished this last weekend.


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

My cousins pom/****zu could have done a jh or sr test no problem, doesnt mean i'd like to see that little wet rat at a hunt test!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

TPhillips said:


> My cousins pom/****zu could have done a jh or sr test no problem, doesnt mean i'd like to see that little wet rat at a hunt test!


Yeah, careful, they talk just as much smack about Chessies.....


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## TPhillips (Dec 16, 2010)

Im sure they do;-)

Im all for retrieving breeds being allowed to participate


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Interesting thread. I knew about this but interesting comments. 
GSP's being close to my heart I will say without a doubt some do a bang up job, duck hunting. They are driven and hardy but not a lab tis true and their coat is pretty thin and wimpy for cold. Their retrieving drive can be tremendous, depending on the lines, sometimes to the detriment of their pointing instincts. Training for both IS tough and as some have mention the sight vs scent style training does make a difference. But they are usually good at switching games and changing rules. There is strong variation in lines and indiviuals with respect to retrieving skills and desire still.
They are at the core a "Jack of all Trades, Master of none." BUT GSP lovers probably deny this. I embrace it. I love my goofy headed well rounded good enough at everything dogs... 

You will be seeing us, soon. And never fear, we will not be the best there, but hopefully we can at least walk away having had a fun day and giving your club more entry money, and willing to be put to work to help. Maybe not too ashamed. 

As to Pointing labs in hunt tests --I say "be careful what you wish for." I have no doubt they could do it and do fine, better than some dogs I've been braced with I am sure, but even among GSP's running with the pointers and setters has changed the breed and not always for the best. Be careful not to lose what you love now, to gain what you think you might like. --- my 2 cents on it anyway. And yes that goes both ways, I know!


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