# de-bolting and multiple gunners on singles



## wild timber kennels (Jul 25, 2011)

I am new to this so i was woundering if someone could explain these to me!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

de-bolting = a to the end step of the collar conditioning. dog is set up with a tempting item to run to like an open pick up truck door or owner sitting on lawn chair. Off leash heeling drills run in area. Dog tries to run to tempting place but is kept in heel...... hence "de" bolted.
single retrieves of multiple guns = just like it sounds. 3 or more gunning stations in place in field throwing marks one at a time as single retrieves.
　
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

De-bolting by Evan.



> De-bolting. This is not a command, but a pressure conditioning process. It is an extension of the forcing of “here”, and usually requires little time. It is important, though, so don’t gloss over this. Individual dogs possess varying degrees of the proclivity to bolt in response to pressure that they perceive as being too great for them, even though this is sometimes actually very little pressure. Our purpose is to condition them so that they are able to operate efficiently and effectively, even in the presence of distraction and pressure. This is done by exposing them to known commands that have been formalized, presenting them with force for these commands, and doing it in an environment that includes obvious hiding places. These hiding places may include a kennel, a crate, and any open door, nook, or cranny that may look like an inviting place to hide from pressure. To some extent your dog has already had some conditioning to pressure, but needs to finesse the process. Simply perform heel & sit while walking a course that randomly takes the dog very close to these potential hiding places. As you near them, stick a little harder for the command sit, so that the dog has a logical reason to seek an escape. If, for example, the dog bolts into a crate, let him get all the way in. Respond by saying “here” several times in a normal tone of voice, while using a continuous stimulation with the e-collar. Start with a low intensity, and increase as needed to obtain a sharp obedient response. Continue your heel & sit as though nothing had happened. Take the dog past a variety of potential hiding places, encouraging the bolt in the same way as before and dealing with it as before, until the dog makes no further offers to bolt, or even looks like he might bolt. It is important that you do this without showing any emotion. To the dog, this is just obedience to known commands in the presence of pressure, nothing more. This little process will help you to make the most of any dog you have. It may take some time before you fully realize the significance of it. ~ From Smartwork volume one


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

my my packleader,
you cut and paste very well.
but I ask, - how much different is my free hand own response from your cutted and pasted work of another?
some folk can say it plain as day, others can copy what others say.
　
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

It's much diffrent actually you weren't even close.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I weren't?
why don't you break down the differences......
in your own words....
this should be good!
　
　
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken,

Your lack of understanding about pressure training is immense. No wonder you always use rope and every other comment is anti ecollar.

I was going to write my own version of it but I knew you would have something to say about it and I have better things to do than argue.

The whole idea is to let the dog get to the safe spot ao you can make it uncomfortable. If the dog never gets there then how are you going to make the safe zone uncomfortable for them? 

I can't wait to hear how your version works because to me it's nothing more than heeling around distractions.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Ken,
> 
> Your lack of understanding about pressure training is immense. No wonder you always use rope and every other comment is anti ecollar.
> 
> ...


How many dogs have you done this on?

/Paul


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> ......The whole idea is to let the dog get to the safe spot......


did you read what I typed in post number 2 at all?
　
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Dog tries to run to tempting place but is kept in heel


Yeah I did you said the dog is kept at heel and it's not!


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah I did you said the dog is kept at heel and it's not!


I think you missed a question?

/Paul


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> How many dogs have you done this on?
> 
> /Paul


More than I care to count. It's in my training notes that's where I got it from in the first place.

Edit- I'm doing it tomorrow on a clients dog I will film it for you.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah I did you said the dog is kept at heel and it's not!


so when you do this task and your dog bolts you do not bring it back to heal?
is that what you are saying?
what do you let it do, go for a bier run?
　
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> so when you do this task and your dog bolts you do not bring it back to heal?
> is that what you are saying?
> what do you let it do, go for a bier run?
> 
> .


Yes you let it get to the safe spot.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I don't recall debolting any of my dogs other than the first one and that's cause I was using the TT/Dobbs book...nor do I recall my Pro(s) doing such an activity? I wonder if it is even necessary with today's more modern collars?

I'm thinking debolting is like stick fetch - some do, some don't, hmmm....


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Yes you let it get to the safe spot.


why?
on a sit infraction, do you give a second sit command and a thwack with the stick as soon as the dog starts to get up? Or wait until it is halfway across the yard and whack over and thump it then? I would bet you a slap in the head you do it as soon as the haunches come up. NO different than proper heal maintained through distraction. I love to use my open pick up truck door. The temptation in place, the dog deviates, the correction given. I have personally seen some dipsticks, (not you of course), on the lawn use both an open kennel and then an open pick up truck and do as YOU counsel and let the dog get into the thing then burn up out of it........
Then the next day have to retrain the kennel command 'cause no way was that poor dog going into that again. Do you recall The Late Jerry Harris' story about the teenage son and the voluptuous neighbor girl? Jerry Whooped his son up side the head in the driveway, not when he got all the way to the girl.;-)
　
　
.


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

FOM said:


> I don't recall debolting any of my dogs other than the first one and that's cause I was using the TT/Dobbs book...nor do I recall my Pro(s) doing such an activity? I wonder if it is even necessary with today's more modern collars?
> 
> I'm thinking debolting is like stick fetch - some do, some don't, hmmm....


I was wondering the same thing. From what I recall of our conversation about it, the pro I train with uses de-bolting on a case by case basis. If a dog shows a proclivity to bolt, he de-bolts them, if not he doesn't.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

FOM said:


> I don't recall debolting any of my dogs other than the first one and that's cause I was using the TT/Dobbs book...nor do I recall my Pro(s) doing such an activity? I wonder if it is even necessary with today's more modern collars?
> 
> I'm thinking debolting is like stick fetch - some do, some don't, hmmm....


I rarley do it with a large breed. The little dogs love to bolt.

99% of the time it's a man made issue. People get made and love to chase the dog into the crate. Kids teasing the dog. Any type of pressure can cause it.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> why?
> on a sit infraction, do you give a second sit command and a thwack with the stick as soon as the dog starts to get up? Or wait until it is halfway across the yard and whack over and thump it then? I would bet you a slap in the head you do it as soon as the haunches come up. NO different than proper heal maintained through distraction. I love to use my open pick up truck door. The temptation in place, the dog deviates, the correction given. I have personally seen some dipsticks, (not you of course), on the lawn use both an open kennel and then an open pick up truck and do as YOU counsel and let the dog get into the thing then burn up out of it........
> Then the next day have to retrain the kennel command 'cause no way was that poor dog going into that again. Do you recall The Late Jerry Harris' story about the teenage son and the voluptuous neighbor girl? Jerry Whooped his son up side the head in the driveway, not when he got all the way to the girl.;-)
> 
> ...


Ken, that is not how you do it.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Ken, that is not how you do it.


 
um, actually it is how "I" do it. 
:monkey:
　
.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Lainee, I am with you. I have yet to need this for one of my dogs. I have read about it in TRT, but just never needed it. My pup just got through all of his FF and CC and never showed any inclination to "bolt". Maybe that is needed for a panicky dog??? (which begs the question, why is he panicking?)


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> um, actually it is how "I" do it.
> :monkey:
> 
> .


You could just yell no and pull him out the truck with yer rope!


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

2tall said:


> Lainee, I am with you. I have yet to need this for one of my dogs. I have read about it in TRT, but just never needed it. My pup just got through all of his FF and CC and never showed any inclination to "bolt". Maybe that is needed for a panicky dog??? (which begs the question, why is he panicking?)


You guys never see it because a timid fearful dog has no place on the field. I train all types.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> You could just yell no and pull him out the truck with yer rope!


no rope,
no need after CC, just a "tab"
And I agree, with our modern collars the long winded cut and paste step and the burn the dog out days are gone.
Yet it is very advantages to heel with distractions. But that would not have answered the OP's what is question now would it?
　
.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> You guys never see it because a timid fearful dog has no place on the field. I train all types.


Oh don't presume what I have and have not seen...


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> You guys never see it because a timid fearful dog has no place on the field. I train all types.


so.........
not that I have any urge to train a timid fearful dog, but I got one on my last rescue, Scooby Do.

now this is in my best Foghorn Leghorn voice, O.K.?
" say Son, Why, I say Why, would you let a timid fearful dog run into a "safe place" and then burn um out of it? Why I say?"

back to my voice..... HUH?
　
　
.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> I was wondering the same thing. From what I recall of our conversation about it, the pro I train with uses de-bolting on a case by case basis. If a dog shows a proclivity to bolt, he de-bolts them, if not he doesn't.


And I think that is the best way to approach it these days...like most things with training dogs, you have to read the dog and figure out what works for that dog.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

FOM said:


> Oh don't presume what I have and have not seen...


Hey Lainee you may as well join the club, he knows how I de-bolt. Gonna ask what hand I wipe my hinnie with next.;-)


.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

There is a difference between "it's hot in here maybe I should get out" and "oh crap the trucks on fire". I wouldn't expect you to understand the reasoning behind how I train with a collar for reasons already mentioned.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Hey Lainee you may as well join the club, he knows how I de-bolt. Gonna ask what hand I wipe my hinnie with next.;-)
> 
> 
> .


You wipe? Didn't realize you were the cultured!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> ...I wouldn't expect you to understand...


....classic.....


----------



## Travis Wright (Mar 3, 2003)

Ken,

My wife is begging for a vacation in October, something quiet where we can relax for a few days. I've never been to Vermont, sound nice though. If I come can we get together and hang out? I just have a feeling that it would be a good time....and I love maple syrup.

Your post makes sense.

I have trained lots of scared timid dogs that did have to be debolted. 

There are lots of reasons for a scared timid dog. Most of my experience comes from poorly socialized animals that have never been walked on a leash, then they are sent to be at about 15 months for 'Obedience'.....they are intimidated by the leash and it takes a while for the timidness to go away.

I use a quick 'Nick' with 'No Heel' as soon as they start to go towards a safe place (be it a truck door, kennel, under the dog trailer, whatever). I mean, READ THE DOG, as it heels past a point of temptation, watch it, if it looks that way, a step will be next, then a lung, if they actually get in the safe place, it took you too long to read your dog. This is how I (repeat I) train dogs. 

Heeling a dog through distractions will ensure that they comply to the commands they were taught. I don't De-Bolt every dog, most don't need it. But when I do, I try to use as little pressure as needed to try to encourage an already hesitant animal. Letting them get into their 'safe place', then burning them up will usually do more damage than good.

Ken, let me know where in Vermont I should check out.

Travis


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> ....classic.....


Here we are right back on the anti collar "burn" thing again.


----------



## J.D. Penn (Feb 3, 2010)

Do you two not see you have a very simple misunderstanding? You two are simply using the same term for two different things. Ken you are saying you are stopping the dog from going TO a tempting area. Jamie you are saying you are stopping the dog from running from pressure, as in some dogs lock up and some run. Jamie is saying he is taking away one of a dogs ways of avoiding pressure. Good God guys read what's there and stop looking for an argument.

Annoyed regards


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Travis Wright said:


> Ken,
> 
> My wife is begging for a vacation in October, something quiet where we can relax for a few days. I've never been to Vermont, sound nice though. If I come can we get together and hang out? I just have a feeling that it would be a good time....and I love maple syrup.
> 
> ...


That's great Travis but if you do that all through CC and the dog is still looking and you haven't accomplished your goal. Then you de bolt.


----------



## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

ducks_n_bucks01 said:


> Do you two not see you have a very simple misunderstanding? You two are simply using the same term for two different things. Ken you are saying you are stopping the dog from going TO a tempting area. Jamie you are saying you are stopping the dog from running from pressure, as in some dogs lock up and some run. Jamie is saying he is taking away one of a dogs ways of avoiding pressure. Good God guys read what's there and stop looking for an argument.
> 
> Annoyed regards


Or better yet. I am not even sure WHY this argument was started, considering good information was given by both of the first two responses...and then all of a sudden, it turned into a hey I can type, why can't you.....


----------



## J.D. Penn (Feb 3, 2010)

Zman1001 said:


> Or better yet. I am not even sure WHY this argument was started, considering good information was given by both of the first two responses...and then all of a sudden, it turned into a hey I can type, why can't you.....


I thought all the children had started back to school.


----------



## Travis Wright (Mar 3, 2003)

"That's great Travis but if you do that all through CC and the dog is still looking and you haven't accomplished your goal. Then you de bolt."

My goal is to send clients home with obedient dogs, I do that. I do that different ways for different dogs.

I'm not gonna say that I have never lit into a dog for a command that I knew they were blowing off, I have. But I do think that in most of those cases it would have been better for me to address the issue earlier before it got to where I had to use that kind of pressure.

Travis


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Travis Wright said:


> "That's great Travis but if you do that all through CC and the dog is still looking and you haven't accomplished your goal. Then you de bolt."
> 
> My goal is to send clients home with obedient dogs, I do that. I do that different ways for different dogs.
> 
> ...


LOL you are not getting it. In this video the dog goes to a place he perceived as being safe. I let him go and I De-Bolt him with a pull on the rope and a nick. 

The next time past he doesn't try it again. Third time past he doesn't even look. 

Does it look like it was some big nightmare for the dog? 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Trigger51506?feature=mhee#p/u/9/CsFX7TOweME


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I liked Kens answer and I liked Jamie's answer. I am not sure why Ken got so upset about Jamie using a quote. Ken clearly felt the need to attack Jamie on that point did a good job of goading jamie into an argument. Jamie did provide a nice video showing how to do it, Ken only seems to want to critisize Jamie at this point. It would be nice if Ken posted a video showing how he does it for comparison. Watching things in action is very informative so I really am hoping Ken posts a video.


----------



## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

Im always glad to see a newbie come to the boards and ask an honest question. The following pissing match is also enjoyable. I think we should applaud the seasoned vets who participate in this action. Here Here!

Way to represent RTF guys.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> LOL you are not getting it. In this video the dog goes to a place he perceived as being safe. I let him go and I De-Bolt him with a pull on the rope and a nick.
> 
> The next time past he doesn't try it again. Third time past he doesn't even look.
> 
> ...


I watched the first two minutes of the video and it really doesn't look like debolting to me...more like a collar conditioning/correction for heel.

Most of the pro trainers I know, do a debolt at the end of force fetch. Either before/during force to the pile. 

Bolting is a way of escaping pressure.

We teach the dog that "flight or fight" is not acceptable. The only acceptable response is compliance.

Some dogs are more "bolters" than others. 

I would say "most field dogs" are debolted but sometimes its a "non-event" and it's occurrence is so non-eventful its hard to even put the term "debolting" to it.

WRL


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

we in the Northeast are still waiting (a couple of years, now) to see the proof of the product you produce at a trial or hunt test, packleader.

after your "blind retrieve" video that you posted on here, we really wanted to see it in the flesh, so to speak.

at least Ken walks the walk. you, on the other hand, just talk....and talk.....and talk ad nauseum.-Paul


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

As the administrator of the site, I try hard not to get involved in "taking sides"...although I'm sure in the eyes of some, I do fail. (though it is likely not my intent)

I've tried hard today not to butt in on this thread and ask some involved to stop the silly bickering and take it private. 

I honestly believe that even if the "other guy" started it, and is "wrong", when the "good guy" starts responding, he gives power to the opponent and soon, both are equal participants in a wasteful exchange.

Paul has kind of hit on something that's been going through my mind. Well, both Pauls have. Jamie, you mention that you have debolted too many dogs to count. (actual quote below)

Will you please count up, Jamie, the number of dogs you have trained who have run in hunt tests, and advise how many titles have resulted? Please do the same regarding Field Trials.

While I don't know that Ken Bora has represented himself as well as he could have in this particular thread (due to his giving you way too much power by responding post-for-post) , I will suggest you view the testimonial link on the MIke Lardy's Totalretriever.com site. Look at the bottom. Ken Bora has been a flagship testimonial on there for many years. He has applied the program and has real accomplishments that are documentable. 

Jamie, your comment at 10:58 AM this morning


> Ken,
> 
> Your lack of understanding about pressure training is immense. No wonder you always use rope and every other comment is anti ecollar.


 was poortly thought out and posted in poor form. It is inaccurate and was a low blow. 

Guys and gals, please be nice. 

Jamie, again, please count up out of the number of titled HT and FT dogs you've produced:



> _*/Paul*_
> 
> Originally Posted by *Gun_Dog2002*
> _How many dogs have you done this on?_
> ...


_




*Packleader's reply:*

Click to expand...

_


> More than I care to count. It's in my training notes that's where I got it from in the first place.


Please be nice guys and gals. There's been a fair amount of unkind treatment of others going on lately. Some public, some behind the scenes. Please be kind and use RTF to pay it forward, or to benefit from the help of others.

If you're going to argue for the sake of "picking scabs", please do it privately.

Thanks, Chris


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

A person could make several observations on this video on the return and delivery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRq1J9-EMrk&feature=channel_video_title


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> A person could make several observations on this video on the return and delivery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRq1J9-EMrk&feature=channel_video_title


Yeah Nancy, I agree. The dog is obviously sticky. Also, did you notice he says "OVER" and the dog goes back? Maybe its just my hearing but I distinctly hear him say OVER once. 

And can't the dog cast both directions (left back and right back??). That's kind of elemental in casting.

WRL


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

WRL said:


> Yeah Nancy, I agree. The dog is obviously sticky. Also, did you notice he says "OVER" and the dog goes back? Maybe its just my hearing but I distinctly hear him say OVER once.
> 
> And can't the dog cast both directions (left back and right back??). That's kind of elemental in casting.
> 
> WRL


Yes, I heard the over, saw the casting in direction only, the stickiness and the slow return. Just observational of course.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

All left backs? Not really gonna get a crisp back with the bumpers spread that far out? And I dislike the dog looking up when sent on a retrieve. Add in the minor shopping and you got me gritting my teeth. A little too hard on the delivery, too. Add in the fact that the handler is pulling the bumper from the dog and the dog not giving it up - yuck.

So my question would be what is the age and skill level of this dog?

At least the dog looks happy go lucky.

Lainee


----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Ah [email protected], just beat the hell out of em till they try to run away then beat the hell out of em for trying to run away. Old school.........

If I'm heeling past a 'place' distraction, I wouldn't let the dog leave heel to enter that location. I would enforce heel.

It pretty easy to let then enter a location outside of heeling and then enforce 'here' when they have little desire to come.

Some doggies have a bit of bolt in em while other don't. One size does not fit all. [now there's a new flash]


----------



## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

This just kind of reminds me of the old saying: What can two people training dogs agree on? 


The third guy is doing someting wrong!


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Alec Sparks said:


> Ah [email protected], just beat the hell out of em till they try to run away then beat the hell out of em for trying to run away. Old school.........


This is pretty much what I gather about debolting. I don't get the point but maybe that has to do with the dog I have.

Signed, a Newby


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Ah [email protected], just beat the hell out of em till they try to run away then beat the hell out of em for trying to run away. Old school.........
> 
> If I'm heeling past a 'place' distraction, I wouldn't let the dog leave heel to enter that location. I would enforce heel.
> 
> ...


Exactly Alec. All the debolting that I have done or seen done has been to a HERE command.

WRL


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Will you please count up, Jamie, the number of dogs you have trained who have run in hunt tests, and advise how many titles have resulted? Please do the same regarding Field Trials.
> 
> Pack Looser's hunt test and field trial accomplishments count=
> ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and ZERO, ZERO and
> ...


----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

mitty said:


> This is pretty much what I gather about debolting. I don't get the point but maybe that has to do with the dog I have.
> 
> Signed, a Newby


Simply this: depending on your dog and your method of training, some dogs at some point in a program, may decide they've had enough fun for one day and decide they don't want to play anymore and head for the truck/kennel/house.

De-bolting atmo is really noting more than making _sure_ a dog knows it must come when called [or heel/sit] regardless of all [reasonable] circumstances.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Alec Sparks said:


> Simply this: depending on your dog and your method of training, some dogs at some point in a program, may decide they've had enough fun for one day and decide they don't want to play anymore and head for the truck/kennel/house.
> 
> De-bolting atmo is really noting more than making _sure_ a dog knows it must come when called [or heel/sit] regardless of all [reasonable] circumstances.


Thanks, Alec. The implementation of it that I saw gave me the impression that it was an artifact of a lot of collar pressure (like a high setting) during collar conditioning.


----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

mitty said:


> Thanks, Alec. The implementation of it that I saw gave me the impression that it was an artifact of a lot of collar pressure (like a high setting) during collar conditioning.


Yup that's how many did it years ago [and I'm sure some still do.] That's old school for real........ Run the CC pressure up high enough to get em to bolt.

I may be wrong [like that will ever happen!] but I remember a Wolters book having some photos of Rex [?] working in a central kennel room CC a dog and trying to get a bolt out of the room.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Alec Sparks said:


> Ah [email protected], just beat the hell out of em till they try to run away then beat the hell out of em for trying to run away. Old school.........
> 
> If I'm heeling past a 'place' distraction, I wouldn't let the dog leave heel to enter that location. I would enforce heel.


WOOO HOOOO!!!!!
I am not alone!!!!!
Thank You Alec, Thank You very much!
And group I do apologize. I should not interact with Packleader. I know it I know it I know it. But we have an internet history here he and I and When he used an Evan quote to try to say basically what I typed free hand then went on to explain how I did things. Gosh I could not resist.
Se guys the absolute biggest thing for me is the dogs. And the brand new people. I worry some first time reader who just bought an E-collar at a garage sale is gonna come home and read an RTF thread and let ol Rover run into his dog box and then "Light Him Up" And when I se such things my fingers fly across the keyboard quicker than Jamie's thumb can push the continuous button. For me, for real, no kidding, it is just about the dogs. I don't care if I am right or Jamie is right or what anyone thinks of me or him. It is just about the dogs. And Jamie, the dig of mine "Classic" was not anti collar. How can you even think I am anti collar. It was "Classic" because you used the ol "you would explain but I wouldn't under stand", line. What everyone uses when why are loosing a debate. To think I am too stupid to understand is a we bit condescending. Could it be that I can see through you, se to the real you?
　
Anyway group, while I will not heed the advice from all the p.m.'s and place him on ignore I will temper my responses. Sorry if I chafed your satchels.
　
.


----------



## jerod (May 2, 2011)

No need to apologize ken. I see it as good entertainment throughout the day.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Frankly I asked him how many dogs he has done this on because he always quotes procedure and methods from an amature who writes training material. It was after his response that I realized he was a fellow pro. I guess I have no further questions.

/Paul


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I respect your decision Ken. I hadn't thought about it from the dog's perspective. I will continue to enjoy your posts.

Strange that Chris' question has not been answered.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I respect your decision Ken. I hadn't thought about it from the dog's perspective. I will continue to enjoy your posts.
> 
> Strange that Chris' question has not been answered.


I don't think it's strange now that I've had a night to sleep on it. I'm not surprised that Jamie's not responding, and he probably should not be expected to.

It was inappropriate for me to call this young guy out and I apologize for it.

I showed my rear yesterday when I let my patience wear thin. 

Sorry Jamie.... Sorry RTF. 

- human Janitor.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I don't thin it's not strange now that I've had a night to sleep on it. I'm not surprised that Jamie's not responding, and he probably should not be expected to.
> 
> It was inappropriate for me to call this young guy out and I apologize for it.
> 
> ...


I also am not surprised Jamie is not responding. 

He talks big but doesn't have anything to follow it up with. Isn't that like the guy he learned from?

I don't think it inappropriate that you called him out Chris. Everyone can exaggerate a "little" on this site but the full out BS that was written needs to be addressed.

The "newbies" on the site don't know that he is full of BS and espoused his "knowledge" that isn't really anything. He has NO MEASURABLE success in the "games" that the bulk of us on here play. This isn't some OB board. This is a RETRIEVER TRAINING board and some things simply don't carry over.

That's not to say you have to have trained a MH or FC in order to contribute, but if you are going to throw out the statements like he does, you better have something to back it up with.

WRL


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Sorry Jamie.... Sorry RTF.
> 
> - human Janitor.


It's all good Chris. 

In the words of there great Hetfied.

Never cared for what they say
Never cared for games they play
Never cared for what they do
Never cared for what they know



> And can't the dog cast both directions (left back and right back??)./QUOTE]
> 
> No he doesn't know how to take a right back cast.
> 
> ...


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I have 3 jh passes and all I KNOW is my dog is black


----------



## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

was that a treat given at the end of the first blind?


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I don't understand apologizing to PL that flat out says someone's "lack of knowledge is immense", an insult, when his own videos show his "immense lack of knowledge" for what we do, and instead, is doing parlor tricks with squeaky toys. The harm is with the poster who is trying to find answers and accepts pressure and the collar are the answers, and they are not knowlegible enough to see the consequences in PL's videos.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

IF and When you grow up to be a retriever trainer, you will look back on that video and laugh at yourself.....nuthin to brag about


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> No he doesn't know how to take a right back cast.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/Trigger51506?feature=mhee#p/u/1/X7fz0Im2674
> 
> ...


Well BS this. First that isn't a cold blind, that is casting from the front position (ie. 3 handed casting) Second that dog goes out like it has already been to that location, which I would guess why you allow it to "wander" vs. running a line. Third repeating the blind from your side is still not a cold blind. What you show in the video is a taught blind with little to no control...lets add in that distance is no further than a 3 handed casting drill pile.

Nice try but I'm not buying the snake oil...

FOM


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> This is pretty much what I gather about debolting. I don't get the point but maybe that has to do with the dog I have.
> 
> Signed, a Newby


Mitty,

Please don't let that be all you learn about it. It's incorrect and unnecessary. It's much like using absurdity to illustrate the absurd. De-bolting, as most quality trainers do it, is a low key, brief, simple procedure.

I'm commenting for only two reasons. I was quoted in this thread - correctly, I might add. But most of all because your comment seems genuine, and I hate to leave that wrong impression unaddressed. I really don't care to participate in the jousting match it's become.

If you would like to know more about the process and its importance, email me at [email protected] and I'll be happy to provide information and rationale.

Evan


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

FOM said:


> Well BS this. First that isn't a cold blind, that is casting from the front position (ie. 3 handed casting) Second that dog goes out like it has already been to that location, which I would guess why you allow it to "wander" vs. running a line. Third repeating the blind from your side is still not a cold blind. What you show in the video is a taught blind with little to no control...lets add in that distance is no further than a 3 handed casting drill pile.
> 
> Nice try but I'm not buying the snake oil...
> 
> FOM


The dog has never been to that field before. He didn't wander he turned and I was ready to handle him and didn't have to. 

That was a cold blind you can't see the difference in momentum on the second send?

The distance is 130 yards and no I did not give him a treats or squeaky toys..

Carry on.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> The dog has never been to that field before. He didn't wander he turned and I was ready to handle him and didn't have to.
> 
> That was a cold blind you can't see the difference in momentum on the second send?
> 
> ...


You still haven't answer the "more than I care to count" question and the "success" questions for HTs and FTs.

You might apply yourself to learning about the subject before you try to answer the questions. Its obvious what you consider a "well trained retriever" is in fact a "meat dog" that would not be competitive in any format.

Do you even have any ob competition titles? At least Fred competed in SOMETHING dog related.

WRL


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Jamie, you are going to be drowning in your own pile if you keep pouring on this BS. You at least need to go watch some trained retrievers work so you know how weak your "cold blind" appears. Chris gave you a chance to back out gracefully. Instead you offered up this video for our education? Let me see the video of you running even a junior test. Don't give advice to the newbies on here.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Without regard to the merit or lack thereof of Jamie's posts and Videos.....thank goodness the piling on mentality of the "motley crew" of the RTF has remained true to form.

john


----------



## Travis Wright (Mar 3, 2003)

Shawn White said:


> I have 3 jh passes and all I KNOW is my dog is black


That's awesome!!!

Knowing that you don't know is the first step in learning......funny how alot of us forget that. Loved your post, made me laugh, and I needed a laugh today.

Travis


----------



## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

2tall said:


> Don't give advice to the newbies on here.


That is the funny thing. In this Thread, he did not give any advice. All he did was post up a quote directly from Evan Graham.

I am not sure who enjoys the bashing more. All of the ones who jump in and pile on, or Jamie, because I can only imagine he is sitting at his computer waiting to make crazy statements so he can have some fun................


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I don't understand apologizing to PL that flat out says someone's "lack of knowledge is immense", an insult, when his own videos show his "immense lack of knowledge" for what we do, and instead, is doing parlor tricks with squeaky toys. The harm is with the poster who is trying to find answers and accepts pressure and the collar are the answers, and they are not knowlegible enough to see the consequences in PL's videos.


I'll be accountable for my own actions. Jamie can be accountable for his.

I don't know that I subscribe to the notion that two wrongs make a right. 

So, I showed my butt, and I'm acknowledging it. Jamie's welcome to do the same.

It would be quite hypocritical of me to ask folks to "be kind" and then for me to not walk that talk.

Chris


----------



## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> So, I showed my butt, and I'm acknowledging it.


OK, you've said this twice and I'll have to admit that I don't know what it means. :shock:


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> OK, you've said this twice and I'll have to admit that I don't know what it means. :shock:


 
I showed unkind and inappropriate behavior. I admitted it and apologized for it. I think the more folks can challenge the concept and be kind in their communication, the more productive this resource can be.


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Zman1001 said:


> All he did was post up a quote directly from Evan Graham.
> 
> ................


I think that is what Pissed Ken off, a SMS guy should NEVER quote a "Smartwork" Evan'ism, EVER!  Just playing with you!

Also, I think it's awesome that Chris felt compelled to apologize for saying what he said to PL, but I too think sometimes we need to hear things, myself included, but to admit that RTF needs to be kinder is a great thing


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Jamie,

Are you a member of PRTA? Are you planning on becoming a member, if so who is your mentor/sponsor?

FOM


----------



## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I showed unkind and inappropriate behavior. I admitted it and apologized for it. I think the more folks can challenge the concept and be kind in their communication, the more productive this resource can be.


With all due respect Chris, I strongly disagree. Debate is healthy. People disagree. That is a fact of life. Calling people out is not a crime (and believe me if it was, California would have been the first to make it a law).

Yes there is a point where the line is crossed when people start slandering, swearing, etc. You know, all the good stuff we've seen go on here. ;-) But shutting down a good old fashioned back and forth is not going to do the forum any good and in fact make it pretty worthless.

Is it the forum's mission goal to be kind to others or to provide training advice from those who have walked the walk? Is a smackdown on someone who doesn't have any "retriever training" experience and success to speak of out of line when this is a Retriever Training Forum? I think not.

Just some things to consider,

Melanie


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> With all due respect Chris, I strongly disagree. Debate is healthy. People disagree. That is a fact of life. Calling people out is not a crime (and believe me if it was, California would have been the first to make it a law).
> 
> Yes there is a point where the line is crossed when people start slandering, swearing, etc. You know, all the good stuff we've seen go on here. ;-) But shutting down a good old fashioned back and forth is not going to do the forum any good and in fact make it pretty worthless.
> 
> ...


LIke I said, challenge the idea. That does not make it right to tear somebody down or post passive-aggressive stuff.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Zman1001 said:


> That is the funny thing. In this Thread, he did not give any advice. All he did was post up a quote directly from Evan Graham.
> 
> I am not sure who enjoys the bashing more. All of the ones who jump in and pile on, or Jamie, because I can only imagine he is sitting at his computer waiting to make crazy statements so he can have some fun................


He DID offer up an answer to the original question, even if he did not write it. In a way that is worse, he is interpreting some one elses work for a newcomer. I am simply saying that until he can DO the training, to refrain from coming on as an EXPERT. Why in the world would he offer up that video of a blind if he does in fact know what a cold blind is and how to train for it?


----------



## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> LIke I said, challenge the idea. That does not make it right to tear somebody down or post passive-aggressive stuff.


A large percentage of the posts on this board are, I suppose, what you call passive aggressive. Slams with "" at the end. It's a forum. People quarrel. It's the nature of human interaction. We all live through it. It's how we, supposedly, move forward in life.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> He DID offer up an answer to the original question, even if he did not write it. In a way that is worse, he is interpreting some one elses work for a newcomer. * I am simply saying that until he can DO the training, to refrain from coming on as an EXPERT.* Why in the world would he offer up that video of a blind if he does in fact know what a cold blind is and how to train for it?


If that criteria were to be adhered to here.....there would be a very small pool giving advice on the RTF

just sayin'

john


----------



## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

2tall said:


> he is interpreting some one elses work for a newcomer.


He did not interpret anything. The ORIGINAL QUESTION was: What is debolting? He supplied Evan's definition of debolting. No added interpreting. 




2tall said:


> Why in the world would he offer up that video of a blind if he does in fact know what a cold blind is and how to train for it?


Can not address this, nor do I really care to know what Jamie's performance history is (whether it be in the Lab field, or anywhere else). All my point was is that in this case, he did not give anyone bad information with his original post in this thread. Of course, after it turned into 2nd grade, I guess all show themselves, including Jamie.

And I also guess I am confused a little bit. Where did he say in writing or verbal that the video was of a cold blind? I have read all of the posts. I watched the video? Not trying to stick up for Jamie in the least. Just trying to understand where some information comes from.

Thanks


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Zman1001 said:


> He did not interpret anything. The ORIGINAL QUESTION was: What is debolting? He supplied Evan's definition of debolting. No added interpreting.
> 
> He then went on to post a video of him professionally "debolting" a pet dog.
> 
> ...


Right here:


PackLeader said:


> The dog has never been to that field before. He didn't wander he turned and I was ready to handle him and didn't have to.
> 
> That was a cold blind you can't see the difference in momentum on the second send?
> 
> ...


Ok, I am not piling on anymore. Just worry about what the newbies are learning here. I still consider myself very green, and it wasn't that long ago that I had trouble sorting out the gold from the grief.


----------



## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Still counting?!


----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)




----------



## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)




----------



## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)




----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Byron Musick said:


> I think that is what Pissed Ken off, a SMS guy should NEVER quote a "Smartwork" Evan'ism, EVER!


NO,
　
I should step away from the keyboard I know......
God please forgive me and bless the starving pygmies in New Guinea.
What pissed me off is.........
I argue with Evan all the time here and you all know it. But Evan is cool and will argue right back with me and helps new folk and while he and I disagree on some steps and techniques.
If you do what Evan says, basically you wont hurt your dog or do any harm. You may buy a lot of videos, ;-);-) but your dog will still love you.
I argue with Packleader/Jamie all the time and the difference is........ well
You all saw his titled "blind retrieve" video. and like Lainee pointed out it is just pile work and not even a blind retrieve.
He does not use the same terms we all use or I do not think even the same E-collars and settings we all use and if you take his words literally, when he is using them in ways we don't use them...... your gonna fry your dog.
Now I set the stage and apologized and Chris Backed me up and apologized and Alec found that great photo of a train wreck... it is.
But if you must know, what pissed me off was Packleader quoting Evan when I knew, as he proved after with his own vid, he didn't even know what the post he posted was posted about when it was posted in the first place!!! 
Gosh he thinks pile work is a blind retrieve and cold blinds have second sends for jiminy crickets!!!!
That was my why..... I know I should have left well enough alone. But I am what I am.
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I run my first cold blind coming of pattern blinds the same as outlined in ML TRT.

Page 32 of TRT manual "Pattern Blinds" 

On Day 2 Re-Identify and run the same pattern blind or *run it cold if you think your dog will be successful*. 

According to Mike Lardy it was in fact a cold blind.

Do you not use piles on pattern blinds?


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Sorry if I chafed your satchels.
> 
> .


I am just sooooooooooooooo disappointed that Ken said "chafed satchels" and not one person picked up on it. 

I mean really!


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

We was mesmerized by the dog barking!
then Alec's soothing pic just made us relax


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I run my first cold blind coming of pattern blinds the same as outlined in ML TRT.
> 
> Page 32 of TRT manual "Pattern Blinds"
> 
> ...


Uh, no....its not. And what is funny is you don't even know the difference between running a "cold blind" and running a "memory or pattern blind cold."

WRL


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

It's not a pattern or memory blind if it's his first ever cast to a spot he's never been to before. 

But you were there that day so what ever you say.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Jamie,

You quoted an excerpt from PATTERN BLINDS......it even says to RE-IDENTIFY, as in identify it again OR NOT if you think your dog can do it. But its STILL not a cold blind if the dog has been to that spot today or yesterday or last year.

If you are trying to find things to show that your blind was a cold blind, then DON"T QUOTE STUFF MENTIONING PATTERN OR MEMORY BLINDS.

DUH.......


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

WRL said:


> Jamie,
> But its STILL not a cold blind if the dog has been to that spot today or yesterday or last year.


He never was, I said that already twice.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> It's not a pattern or memory blind if it's his first ever cast to a spot he's never been to before.
> 
> But you were there that day so what ever you say.


so why did you send from the front finish position instead of the heal position?
And why is there already a bumper at your feet when you discard the alleged "Cold Blind" bumper?
Why do you send a second (3rd I think) time?
do you think we all do not know pile work when we see it?
　
.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jamie,
Honest to Gosh I want to be helpful here.
Do you know the difference between running a pattern blind cold
and
Running a cold blind?????
　
.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> He never was, I said that already twice.


Right. Uh huh.....

How about this....I don't care if its a true cold blind or a memory blind.

Film a blind at least 100 yds long. 

However these are the conditions. You have to SIT TO THE WHISTLE the dog at least TWICE and you have to give AT LEAST one OVER and AT LEAST one BACK cast.

Lets see the dog do that. 

WRL


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> so why did you send from the front finish position instead of the heal position?
> And why is there already a bumper at your feet when you discard the alleged "Cold Blind" bumper?
> Why do you send a second (3rd I think) time?
> do you think we all do not know pile work when we see it?
> ...


Yeah Ken it's as a big conspiracy. 

The bumper behind me is orange I took it out of the bag before I went to plant my white bumpers.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Jamie,
> Honest to Gosh I want to be helpful here.
> Do you know the difference between running a pattern blind cold
> and
> ...


No he doesn't. Otherwise, he would not quote ML stuff out of the PATTERN BLIND section of the manual.

WRL


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

WRL said:


> Right. Uh huh.....
> 
> How about this....I don't care if its a true cold blind or a memory blind.
> 
> ...


I'll get right on that for you.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> I'll get right on that for you.


I'm sure. And while you are at it, still a couple questions you forgot to answer...you know the ones about "more than I can count" and the "measurable success in HTs or FTs".....

WRL


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Yeah Ken it's as a big conspiracy.
> 
> The bumper behind me is orange I took it out of the bag before I went to plant my white bumpers.


yes,
and we use orange bumpers on cold blinds don't we?;-)
care to address the front finish send?
we line up for a cold blind with our subtle here and heal cues and send from our side.
we drive back on pile work from the front finish with a straight arm up back cast.
　
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> yes,
> and we use orange bumpers on cold blinds don't we?;-)
> care to address the front finish send?
> we line up for a cold blind with our subtle here and heal cues and send from our side.
> ...


No "we" don't use orange bumpers when first teaching blinds. 

We use white bumpers on mowed grass as instructed in your training material.

I sent him from the front because I felt like it...


----------



## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

2labs said:


> This just kind of reminds me of the old saying: What can two people training dogs agree on?
> 
> 
> The third guy is doing someting wrong!


That sounds about right!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> No "we" don't use orange bumpers when first teaching blinds.
> 
> We use white bumpers on mowed grass as instructed in your training material.
> 
> I sent him from the front because I felt like it...


so you admit you are doing pile work???

BTW for me personally those first real "cold" blinds (not pile work) have A duck at the end.
When I say "Dead Bird" and line um up and then say "Good" and put a hand out over the head and say "Back"
I kinda like the dog to know I am telling the truth and there is a dead bird out there.
It is the old "Is your dog running to something or away from you" discussion. I do not think you are ready for that yet.
But I am amused at how you try to tell me how I train. While you struggle with the terminology at the same time.
　
.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> I am amused at how you try to tell me how I train. While you struggle with the terminology at the same time.


I never tried to tell you how to train. I could care less how you train! 

I don't know why you are so obsessed over how I train and what I know. Lot's a people on here giving newbies piss poor advice why don't you ever drill them? 

Because you just like to stir the pot!

You in love with me or something? Give me a kiss.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Ken told me what gdg means!


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Jamie,
> Honest to Gosh I want to be helpful here.
> Do you know the difference between running a pattern blind cold
> and
> ...


If it is not "IDENTIFIED" in advance to the dog, Until the second, third , fourth, etc., time the pattern blind is run........ What is the difference

john


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

well by definition it would not be a pattern blind now would it John?
and would you re-run a cold blind 4 times? or would you run a set of 3-4 cold blinds
with similar factors, 3-peat? John You know that I know that you know the difference.
.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Lot's a people on here giving newbies piss poor advice why don't you ever drill them?


Oh Gee................ I think I can answer this one. Because you hold yourself out as a professional trainer. And while that might be true with obedience, it's not true with training retrievers for field work. No one wants to see a newbie get sent down the wrong path. It's not the newbie that gets hurt, it's the dog. 

Then, when people try to help you Jamie........... people with years of experience with a lot of titled dogs and pretty ribbons to show for it, you tell them they are wrong. These are people who have been in your newbie shoes, and F'd up along the way. It makes no sense to me ever that people wouldn't want to learn from that.

You're obviously enthusiastic, which is a good thing. But I really think it's YOU that likes to stir the pot. 

Happy Friday!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I am not doing this to stir the pot, I really want to know. This comes from my own dog, my FIRST dog, who is only a JH, so I know nothing. Want to clarify that right off the bat here so I don't get jumped on.
My dog doesn't show any tendency to "give up" and head for a "safe place". 
However, he has a massive tendency to take off after a bird that he flushes if the shooter misses the bird. 
For that, the pro that we train under did what he called "de-bolting" with the e-collar, to teach the dog that the only way the collar pressure would turn off is when the dog returns to me. 
Is that de-bolting, or is there a different term for what we did? 
Thank you.


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I am not doing this to stir the pot, I really want to know. This comes from my own dog, my FIRST dog, who is only a JH, so I know nothing. Want to clarify that right off the bat here so I don't get jumped on.
> My dog doesn't show any tendency to "give up" and head for a "safe place".
> However, he has a massive tendency to take off after a bird that he flushes if the shooter misses the bird.
> For that, the pro that we train under did what he called "de-bolting" with the e-collar, to teach the dog that the only way the collar pressure would turn off is when the dog returns to me.
> ...


No Barb
They are totally different. All based on the frame of mind. A dog chasing a bird and not paying any attention to the recall is a yahoo thing. A dog that bolts doesn't want to be in the situation that it is in and it can be for a number of reasons. Training pressure,,nuerosis,fear and skewed perceptions of reality.


What your dog got was good ole CC to here. There was no bolting in your example.
De bolting occures when your dog decides to hide or go to a safe place instead of obey. 

Pete


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Packleader, have you ever gone and watched a pro like Pat Nolan do basics in person? Have you ever gone and watched a Hunt Test in person, and if so which one(s)?
If you make a DVD as you say you are, who is your target audience? SAR people? Pet and Obedience trainers? Retriever competitors?


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> NO,
> 
> I should step away from the keyboard I know......
> God please forgive me and bless the starving pygmies in New Guinea.
> What pissed me off is.........



Ken, You are my champion!! I was just giving you the RTF equivalent as a FB Poke! 

PL, just so you know, newbies who give bad advice get hammered all the time, and its not just you!! You however do seem to enjoy the attention!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks Pete, I'm trying to learn proper terms for the things we do (including the types of blinds we run, and the drills we do, but that's another whole thread!)



Pete said:


> No Barb
> They are totally different. All based on the frame of mind. A dog chasing a bird and not paying any attention to the recall is a yahoo thing. A dog that bolts doesn't want to be in the situation that it is in and it can be for a number of reasons. Training pressure,,nuerosis,fear and skewed perceptions of reality.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> so why did you send from the front finish position instead of the heal position?


OK, I have a newbie question about that. In my (limited) understanding, a blind involves lining a dog from the heel position and sending. Then you want the dog to keep that line as closely as possible. If the dog deviates from that line or lollygags (as seen in the video that PL posted), a whistle/sit/cast is given to reline the dog. A dog that keeps a great line is best, correct? You don't want to have to stop the dog, but a dog should then take that cast and stay on that "new" line. 

As I see it, my goal for my dog on a blind is to say "dead bird," put my hand down to give him the line, and have him lower his head and see him thinking "ok, I know where I'm going!" And then have him take my casts  

I just wanted to make sure that I'm on the right thought path here.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

mlopez said:


> OK, I have a newbie question about that. In my (limited) understanding, a blind involves lining a dog from the heel position and sending. Then you want the dog to keep that line as closely as possible. If the dog deviates from that line or lollygags (as seen in the video that PL posted), a whistle/sit/cast is given to reline the dog. A dog that keeps a great line is best, correct? You don't want to have to stop the dog, but a dog should then take that cast and stay on that "new" line.
> 
> As I see it, my goal for my dog on a blind is to say "dead bird," put my hand down to give him the line, and have him lower his head and see him thinking "ok, I know where I'm going!" And then have him take my casts
> 
> I just wanted to make sure that I'm on the right thought path here.


You understand. Sometimes in competition, we are asked to do remote blinds with the dog facing us, and very often we do no-see-ums where the dog is at the base of a hill or incline where a lined blind would be close to impossible to achieve. The idea is that the handler can cast the dog back to a line or over a point to the end of the blind.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Barb - If you want a good way to help cure the breaking to shot issue you have with your dog I know a sure fire way of doing it without a lot of collar pressure. My old man Flash was infamous for breaking of "sit to flush" in NAHRA tests. 

Marie - Yes your desired methodology is right on track.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> A large percentage of the posts on this board are, I suppose, what you call passive aggressive. Slams with "" at the end. It's a forum. People quarrel. It's the nature of human interaction. We all live through it. It's how we, supposedly, move forward in life.


I'm just getting caught up on how this riveting thread has evolved over the past several hours.

Not everyone is going to show the same preference for behavior. Some like it rough, some don't.

I would like to pick Howard Niemi as an example for just a few sentences. Howard does not agree with everybody. Howard offers counterpoints. Howard has titled dogs and walks the talk. Howard treats others with respect and kindness, whether he agrees with them, or thinks their ideas are poor.

I think that behaviors like Howard's tend to be more universally appealing to those truly seeking information to improve their training experience or to deliver results in the field. I think that Howard is good at putting himself in the position of the other person in advance. He seems to express thoughts in a way that is not demeaning or attacking of the other person. It works well.

Some folks seem to readily react when they are addressed in a way that seems to rub them the wrong way. Those reactions by those kinds of folks seem to involve addressing their "opponent" in a way that they themselves would HATE to be addressed. My personal view is that this behavior of getting the other guy either:
a) Before, or 
b) because,
he got you, tends to lead to a less productive reading experience for the audience reading and truly seeking information to improve their results in the field.

I do think that there are many that enjoy the entertainment of the non-Howard-like behaviors. I'm certainly not trying to shut that all down. 

I do think that as the administrator of the site, it is outside my role here to be non-Howard-like. I personally feel best, whether others will agree or not, when I acknowledge it if I feel that I've crossed the line.

You're absolutely right Melanie, RTF is a forum and the colorful, sometimes "in your face" debate is part of forums. RTF has always had a cyclical swing of too little of this, not enough of that, and then a swing the other way.

It is what it is. 

I'd just suggest that in general folks try to debate the idea, don't attack the person. Address others as you'd like to be addresed. 

- It's FRIDAY and the weather here in the flatlands is awesome. 

I'll actually be out around LA a good part of next week. (The city, not the state) It's been a couple years since I was in lovely California and I'm looking forward to it.

Chris


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

mlopez said:


> OK, I have a newbie question about that. In my (limited) understanding, a blind involves lining a dog from the heel position and sending. Then you want the dog to keep that line as closely as possible. If the dog deviates from that line or lollygags (as seen in the video that PL posted), a whistle/sit/cast is given to reline the dog. A dog that keeps a great line is best, correct? You don't want to have to stop the dog, but a dog should then take that cast and stay on that "new" line.
> 
> As I see it, my goal for my dog on a blind is to say "dead bird," put my hand down to give him the line, and have him lower his head and see him thinking "ok, I know where I'm going!" And then have him take my casts
> 
> I just wanted to make sure that I'm on the right thought path here.


actually, the mindset we want to instill in our dogs is " i have no idea where i'm going, but i'll take any direction you give me until told otherwise".

you don't want the dog "thinking" on a blind. thinking enroute is an admirable trait on marks, but not on blinds. good luck!-Paul


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

paul young said:


> actually, the mindset we want to instill in our dogs is " i have no idea where i'm going, but i'll take any direction you give me until told otherwise".
> 
> you don't want the dog "thinking" on a blind. thinking enroute is an admirable trait on marks, but not on blinds. good luck!-Paul



This may be the single most important (and accurate) post in this thread And yet is true GDG, having nothing to do with the original question at all about debolting and singles from multi guns! GDG Rules!


----------



## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

paul young said:


> actually, the mindset we want to instill in our dogs is " i have no idea where i'm going, but i'll take any direction you give me until told otherwise".
> 
> you don't want the dog "thinking" on a blind. thinking enroute is an admirable trait on marks, but not on blinds. good luck!-Paul


I am not sure I agree with this statement. I have stood at the line many times when it was clear my dog "saw the picture". A dog that has no idea were he is going may be able to get by in some venues but isn't going to win an Open or an Amature stake.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I would like to pick Howard Niemi as an example for just a few sentences. Howard does not agree with everybody. Howard offers counterpoints. Howard has titled dogs and walks the talk. Howard treats others with respect and kindness, whether he agrees with them, or thinks their ideas are poor.


Oh crap, how am I gonna live up to this.

Boring Saint Howard regards,


----------



## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

scott spalding said:


> I am not sure I agree with this statement. I have stood at the line many times when it was clear my dog "saw the picture". A dog that has no idea were he is going may be able to get by in some venues but isn't going to win an Open or an Amature stake.


I agree with Scott here. In my limited experience I like my dog thinking- she just needs to be thinking the right way, i.e. go here, dont go here, fight this, etc... ;-)

At the end of the day, that what we want, right? a dog that has been trained in various scenarios to understand and think through what it is being asked to do....

Havent run a master test yet regards,

Warren


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

scott spalding said:


> I am not sure I agree with this statement. I have stood at the line many times when it was clear my dog "saw the picture". A dog that has no idea were he is going may be able to get by in some venues but isn't going to win an Open or an Amature stake.


I would agree with you, Scott, in that I want my dog to see a channel blind and know the drill, but also with Paul's intent in that we don't want dogs being on autopilot and independant per se on blinds, but to go when sent and take casts as directed. I think, in my vast experience, we want that team player who has the picture from the line, gets the general idea of what's coming, such as a channel blind or a cheaty entry, and makes that effort to "be good" taking that line as its been trained to do vs umpteen casts to get it in the water and keep it there. I know I struggle to find enough water to train on regularly to get those "pictures" in my dogs' memories, so they can make better decisions when sent and take less casts to get that blind. I haven't had the luck of one of those robots yet that just goes on a line til told otherwise.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'm just getting caught up on how this riveting thread has evolved over the past several hours.
> 
> Not everyone is going to show the same preference for behavior. Some like it rough, some don't.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but are we talking about this Howard who suffers from a variety of weird behaviors like this one from 2007?

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=226285&postcount=15

/Paul


----------



## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Rainmaker said:


> I would agree with you, Scott, in that I want my dog to see a channel blind and know the drill, but also with Paul's intent in that we don't want dogs being on autopilot and independant per se on blinds, but to go when sent and take casts as directed. I think, in my vast experience, we want that team player who has the picture from the line, gets the general idea of what's coming, such as a channel blind or a cheaty entry, and makes that effort to "be good" taking that line as its been trained to do vs umpteen casts to get it in the water and keep it there. I know I struggle to find enough water to train on regularly to get those "pictures" in my dogs' memories, so they can make better decisions when sent and take less casts to get that blind. I haven't had the luck of one of those robots yet that just goes on a line til told otherwise.


"I want a dog that has no idea were he is going" 
I don't want that dog I don't care how well he takes direction.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

scott spalding said:


> "I want a dog that has no idea were he is going"
> I don't want that dog I don't care how well he takes direction.


I agree. I want the dog with the brain to make the good decisions, the drive and talent to take it to the furthest point, and the willingness to take my handles when needed. And the proficiency to teach it what those good decisions are.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm sorry but are we talking about this Howard who suffers from a variety of weird behaviors like this one from 2007?
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=226285&postcount=15
> 
> /Paul


Now that is funny!!!


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Packleader, have you ever gone and watched a pro like Pat Nolan do basics in person? Have you ever gone and watched a Hunt Test in person, and if so which one(s)?
> If you make a DVD as you say you are, who is your target audience? SAR people? Pet and Obedience trainers? Retriever competitors?


Yes I was at the last Pat Nolan seminar a few months ago put on by a FT club. 

Yes I have been to hunt test mostly local. 

If I make a DVD it will be collar obedience for all dogs because to me it's universal.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

mlopez said:


> OK, I have a newbie question about that. In my (limited) understanding, a blind involves lining a dog from the heel position and sending. Then you want the dog to keep that line as closely as possible. If the dog deviates from that line or lollygags (as seen in the video that PL posted), a whistle/sit/cast is given to reline the dog. A dog that keeps a great line is best, correct? You don't want to have to stop the dog, but a dog should then take that cast and stay on that "new" line.
> 
> As I see it, my goal for my dog on a blind is to say "dead bird," put my hand down to give him the line, and have him lower his head and see him thinking "ok, I know where I'm going!" And then have him take my casts
> 
> I just wanted to make sure that I'm on the right thought path here.


What I am doing in the video is teaching the steps to do what you described.

He is just starting on pattern blinds. You send the dog on the same line over and over again to the same place until they have it down solid.

Then you make a second pile and do the same thing. 

Then a third pile and do the same thing. 

In the TRT videos Mike sends the dog from the front sit position and from the side on pattern blinds. 

I break it up between front and side sends. 

When establishing pattern blinds you don't want to handle the dog as long as they are headed in the right direction. It can kill the momentum and confidence you are trying to create. If they don't get it then you move up or identify the pile. 

After the three locations are known by the dog "known pattern blinds" then you can start to line them up for the blind you want. The dog already knows where the piles are you are just showing them what one you want. That is when you start to line the dog up from the side position like you said.

The dog does need to learn to go straight on a back casts just as much as they need to learn to go straight from the side. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

mlopez said:


> OK, I have a newbie question about that. In my (limited) understanding, a blind involves lining a dog from the heel position and sending. Then you want the dog to keep that line as closely as possible. If the dog deviates from that line or lollygags (as seen in the video that PL posted), a whistle/sit/cast is given to reline the dog. A dog that keeps a great line is best, correct? You don't want to have to stop the dog, but a dog should then take that cast and stay on that "new" line.
> 
> As I see it, my goal for my dog on a blind is to say "dead bird," put my hand down to give him the line, and have him lower his head and see him thinking "ok, I know where I'm going!" And then have him take my casts
> 
> I just wanted to make sure that I'm on the right thought path here.


I'm going to direct you to some threads where I have discussed pattern field purpose and process.

Purpose - https://contactcenter.ges.symantec.com/case/summary/caseActivity.html?id=415168296&filter=437198771
Lets backup and discuss the purpose of pattern blinds. At a high level, the purpose is to take what the dog has been taught in a yard settings and put it into the field. At this point we want a dog that will understand looking out in the field, and going when sent. We want a dog to go enthusiastically and we want a dog that is able to go/stop/come. We want a dog that will take a cast, and in my opinion a dog that will work with me. I rarely expect much more out of a dog coming out of T pattern than that. Straight lines will come, precise casting will etc. You mention you are on your second leg of the pattern and he's lining them. Good. Work in the other 2 and then start mixing up which ones you send him for and I'd be willing to bet you'll get some handling in. 

If by chance the dog is lining each and everyone you send him too, with no mistakes, then it is not a sin to stop him even though he's online and cast him. I keep the ratio about 70/30 lining to handling if possible but don't be afraid to stop and cast him. If a problem comes up, now is the time to work through it. On the other hand if you're doing this and and have a high percentage of success, then move on to cold blinds, and slowly start adding factors. 

Process - http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=264535&postcount=2

Pattern Field Process

I typically do a session every day with the dog. This is a teaching drill where skills are taught through repetition. These dogs can handle at least one session a day and in my experience they make the most progress by consistent sessions daily for 7-10 days. If by day 10 I'm seeing a 80% success rate in the handling portion and good response to the back command with periodic force I move to pattern field where we take the taught skills and put them into a controlled field situation. 

My pattern fields is flat, short grass and mostly featureless. The blinds have good separation and vary in length. (see diagram) I teach 1 leg each day, and repeat the other legs as I go along. By day 4 the dog is picking up 2 bumpers at each leg. They are rough at first, but like T pattern this is teaching. Not a lot of corrections for casting mistakes, use attrition. Don't worry if they line them, again this is about working with you has a handler and taking the casts. Again I run these for 7-10 days. Typically after this the dog is working with me well enough to move to true cold blinds, which in line with the program does not have a lot of casting corrections, but mostly attrition.




I do start at those distances. Just like in the pile work, I start close and backup. So here's how I would start a dog.

Day 1. - Put down 8 bumpers at pile 1. Run from 20 yards. As the dog returns backup to 50 yards and send from there. As the dog returns backup to 80 yards. Continue this until you get about 200 yards or so and run whatever amount of bumpers you have left from the full distance. Of course if the dog slows down, verbal back. If the dog seems to struggle move up.

Day 2 - Put 2 bumpers at pile #1 and 6-8 at pile #2. Start with #2 and build it like you did the day before. After running it from the full distance run #1. This will typically generate a ton of handling but since you did it the day before, most dogs will remember the pile and it will click with them. Run out the remaining bumpers.

Day 3 - 2 bumpers at #1 and #2. 6-8 at pile 3. Build it and after fully running the distance run #1, then #2. Finish out the bumpers.

Day 4 - same routine. This is the hardest day because the dog runs more lines of the pattern than any other day. Measure your dogs fatigue and if its too much then cut back to only picking one bumper at each pile.

Day 5 - 2 bumpers at each pile, and run them randomly in any order.

So initially there will be a lot of handling and the dog may seem really confused. Thats ok, your there to help him/her out. If distance is the problem, kick the dog off and start walking after them. That way the continue to run the same distance to the piles, but you cut the distance to maintain control. Do not, I can't say this enough, do not panic if the dog is seemingly struggling. This is where you teach the dog to handle. Keep in mind that casting mistakes are handled via attrition. I very rarely use the collar for casting mistakes on this drill. The only corrections with the collar are for the basics, go/stop/come. Be patient, after a few days the dog will most likely be running the lines with no handling at all. This is good. We want to teach the dog to run long, run straight and if I stop and handle you, it is not a bad thing, just giving you a new line to run. This distances may seem to much, but we want to build in the dog a mentality that it is gong long and far everytime.

IMHO the momentum problems, popping, spinning etc come when too much physical pressure is applied. Force is not physical its mental. As an extreme example, if you do force to pile and put your TT collar on a high 6, then perform the process perfectly, it will create all these problems even though your doing everything correctly. In probably 90% of the young dogs that I work with, most of them coming off the FF table into walking fetch will have sufficient physical pressure on a TT #2 high, to perform the function. Moving into FTP that typically remains the same and as the couple of weeks go by they will get an "occasional" #3 or #4 to help expose them to the more physical pressure. This helps them learn/understand how to handle the higher pressure. Most of their physical force though is with a high #2 or low/medium #3. People forget that T is also about handling the physical collar pressure properly. Two things come to mind on this topic;

1. Force is applied correctly is more mental then physical - Don Remein
2. All dogs are not created equal. Use only enough physical force to elicit a behavioral change in the dog. If the dog responds to a #2 properly, then why use more? - Mike Lardy.

Once you have this established then you can add the items you discussed anywhere to teach concepts.

/Paul


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> What I am doing in the video is teaching the steps to do what you described.
> 
> He is just starting on pattern blinds. You send the dog on the same line over and over again to the same place until they have it down solid.
> 
> ...


What?? Didn't you say like three times this was a "cold blind"????

Now you are saying they are pattern blinds. 

I guess you don't know the difference between cold blinds and running pattern blinds cold.

WRL


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

WRL said:


> What?? Didn't you say like three times this was a "cold blind"????
> 
> Now you are saying they are pattern blinds.
> 
> ...


That was his first cast to a pile he has never been to before. She said the dog knew where it was going. How can he know that if he has never been there before? I'm not splitting hairs with you today, you are right I am wrong.

K bye.


----------



## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

PackLeader said:


> That was his first cast to a pile he has never been to before. She said the dog knew where it was going. How can he know that if he has never been there before?


By "knowing where he is going," I meant that he gets/sees the picture, just as others said. Sorry if I wasn't clear. 

/Paul, thanks for the information! I printed it so I would have your drawing for later. 

Rainmaker said: "I think, in my vast experience, we want that team player who has the picture from the line, gets the general idea of what's coming, such as a channel blind or a cheaty entry, and makes that effort to "be good" taking that line as its been trained to do vs umpteen casts to get it in the water and keep it there."

Thank you! That makes good sense. That's what I want my dog to do! Guess I should stop messing on the computer and go train...


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> He is just starting on pattern blinds. You send the dog on the same line over and over again to the same place until they have it down solid.


Are you a ventriloquist?

FOM


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

mlopez said:


> By "knowing where he is going," I meant that he gets/sees the picture, just as others said. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
> 
> /Paul, thanks for the information! I printed it so I would have your drawing for later.
> 
> ...


I wasn't refering to you mlopez. Go have fun!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

WRL said:


> What?? Didn't you say like three times this was a "cold blind"????
> 
> Now you are saying they are pattern blinds.
> 
> ...


........








.........


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Hey, let go my eggo!


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

As I asked in a round about way earlier....What makes a Blind a "Cold Blind" but running it COLD.

The dog has no idea of your intentions for future use of the Blind. At the point of it's first use it is being run COLD.

john


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

john fallon said:


> As I asked in a round about way earlier....What makes a Blind a "Cold Blind" but running it COLD.
> 
> The dog has no idea of your intentions for future use of the Blind. At the point of it's first use it is being run COLD.
> 
> john


Thank you john...


----------



## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

john fallon said:


> As I asked in a round about way earlier....What makes a Blind a "Cold Blind" but running it COLD.
> 
> The dog has no idea of your intentions for future use of the Blind. At the point of it's first use it is being run COLD.
> 
> john


When doing pattern blinds, general practice is to identify each pile as it is being taught. And, as /Paul states, one generally starts close and backs up.
I certainly would not call a "drill" using either or both of these scenarios a cold blind. Would you?

It is difficult to understand exactly what Packie is doing since he originally referred to his video clip as a dog doing a cold blind but then changed his story to say he is doing pattern blinds. I'm not sure what it will be called next?


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> When doing pattern blinds, general practice is to identify each pile as it is being taught. And, as /Paul states, one generally starts close and backs up.
> I certainly would not call a "drill" using either or both of these scenarios a cold blind. Would you?
> 
> It is difficult to understand exactly what Packie is doing since he originally referred to his video clip as a dog doing a cold blind but then changed his story to say he is doing pattern blinds. I'm not sure what it will be called next?


I never said it was a how to run a "cold blind" someone said the dog knew where it was going. I said "no it was a cold blind" the dog didn't know where he was going. 

No one asked me what drill the dog was working on they just assumed.

The video was posted to show the dog can in fact take an overhand back cast not to demonstrate a cold blind. 

What are you going to try and call it next is more like it.


----------



## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

PackLeader said:


> I never said it was a how to run a "cold blind" someone said the dog knew where it was going. I said "no it was a cold blind" the dog didn't know where he was going.


Packie,

To clarify the discussion, how do you train pattern blinds, step by step? And at what point do you call something a true cold blind?



PackLeader said:


> No one asked me what drill the dog was working on they just assumed.


You are the trainer and the poster of these video clips. Aren't you supposed to be providing the information about what the dog is working on? If you do not, you do realize there will be assumptions, right? It's human nature.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

The title of the video says "Cold Blind"....


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

FOM said:


> The title of the video says "Cold Blind"....


Better clean your glasses.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

FOM said:


> The title of the video says "Cold Blind"....


I saw what you saw. Now he changed the name.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I saw what you saw. Now he changed the name.


Pfft yeah what ever you say.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Pfft yeah what ever you say.


Are you saying I'm lying and so is Nancy? Now that is a load of crap!

FOM


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

FOM said:


> Are you saying I'm lying and so is Nancy? Now that is a load of crap!
> 
> FOM


You are just making a fool of yourselves at this point... 

Anyone who has youtube videos already knows that you can't change the title on a video without deleting the video and re uploading it again. 

You should google some facts before you try spreading your next line of BS!


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> You are just making a fool of yourselves at this point...
> 
> Anyone who has youtube videos already knows that you can't change the title on a video without deleting the video and re uploading it again.
> 
> You should google some facts before you try spreading your next line of BS!


That's a lie. Blatant one....

I just went and changed the title of a video I posted on youtube last year.

WRL


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Now, what would Howard do?


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

WRL said:


> That's a lie. Blatant one....
> 
> I just went and changed the title of a video I posted on youtube last year.
> 
> WRL


What title are you talking about? When the video first starts it says blind retrieve in the video itself you can't change that. If you look to the right it says blindretrieve.mov that is the name of the file when uploaded.

You can't change either or those things without deleting the movie editing the title and re uploading. 

No part of the video has been edited, name, title, or anything else. 

Everyone who got the email from youtube and FB when I first uploaded it knows your full of crap so keep talking I could care less.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

FWIW, I also remember seeing "Cold" in the title where now it says "First". But that is ok, I am getting senile and I could be completely wrong. But PL, you forgot to edit your post #70 on here where you said it was a cold blind.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

2tall said:


> FWIW, I also remember seeing "Cold" in the title where now it says "First". But that is ok, I am getting senile and I could be completely wrong. But PL, you forgot to edit your post #70 on here where you said it was a cold blind.


Im off to the gym, talk to the wall.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Now, what would Howard do?


At this junction in the road I'm going to have to say I'm incapable of doing what Howard would do! 

Jamie you need to step away from the key board and go pound sand!

Once you figure out which end of a dog to feed and which end to wipe, maybe then we can have a meaningful training discussion.

FOM


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> .......................... If you look to the right it says blindretrieve.mov that is the name of the file when uploaded.
> 
> You can't change either or those things without deleting the movie editing the title and re uploading.
> 
> ...


Yes you can.

I just did it.

WRL


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> You are just making a fool of yourselves at this point...
> 
> Anyone who has youtube videos already knows that you can't change the title on a video without deleting the video and re uploading it again.
> 
> You should google some facts before you try spreading your next line of BS!


Here's your google the facts. http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/answer.py?answer=187594

Here is a video on how to edit your video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku7iqAlhfpg
We have a kid here screwing with us that wants to insult people and get attention. It was titled first cold blind.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

OK! Lets get back to the OP.

In the De-Bolting process do you let the dog get to the safe place or not ?

Jamie agrees with Evans article and says yes, what say the rest of you?

john


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

No. I haven't done it in ages. Don't see a need if cc is done correctly and you have a decent dog. If I did, no I would have the dog on a check cord. If he tried to bolt, to a crate or kennel run, I would ecollar nick "here", tug on the lead, if necessary, to get him to come to me. The Lardy method. Lardy also says it is not necessary for all dogs.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> No. I haven't done it in ages. Don't see a need if cc is done correctly and you have a decent dog. If I did, no I would have the dog on a check cord. If he tried to bolt, to a crate or kennel run, I would ecollar nick "here", tug on the lead, if necessary, to get him to come to me. The Lardy method. Lardy also says it is not necessary for all dogs.


I agree.

WRL


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> OK! Lets get back to the OP.
> 
> In the De-Bolting process do you let the dog get to the safe place or not ?
> 
> Jamie agrees with Evans article and says yes, what say the rest of you


John
I will get them retreating to their safe spot most of the time. I will let them get almost there and then turn them.
I finish up with a positive coming out of the safe spot.
But there are probably other ways of doing it with the same results.

Also John I can't ever remember a dog not wanting to come out of its box. From poor training anyway.
pete


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wow.

This sure didn't go the way I thought it would after my apology!

Sorry guys. I swear I was trying to help.

I'm glad this stuff is staying isolated to this thread! (at least I hope it is)


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> No. I haven't done it in ages. Don't see a need if cc is done correctly and you have a decent dog. If I did, no I would have the dog on a check cord. If he tried to bolt, to a crate or kennel run, I would ecollar nick "here", tug on the lead, if necessary, to get him to come to me. The Lardy method. Lardy also says it is not necessary for all dogs.
> __________________


I use a totally different method to CC. Especially since some of the temperaments of the dogs I train are not considered decent. I would agree also that it isn't nessessary to debolt a dog if the dog never bolts.

Pete


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> The Lardy method. Lardy also says it is not necessary for all dogs.


Is that the guy that won all those darn nationals, was instrumental in the development of the methods for the modern day use of the e-collar, and showed everyone that you can train soft bitches to run hard and be competitive in field trials? If that's the guy, I think he may know a thing or two.................


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pete said:


> I would agree also that it isn't necessary to debolt a dog *if the dog never bolts.*
> Pete


I have seen a dog bolt in training... the reason could have been one that has previously mentioned such as improper or inadequate cc or one that has not. In any case the dog had not been de-bolted, it was fortunate for the handler that the dog was found.

Not that I doubt that he said it but.......I would like to see the context of that comment on not de-bolting attributed to Mike Lardy, and ask him a few questions on his method for deciding those dogs that do
john


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

John, The Lardy method is described in his RJ August/Sept 1996 issue, After Collar Conditing. I believe he cleaned up the original article when he included it in his Total E-Collar Conditioning manual. Reading between the lines I think he looks for this bolting tendency when doing ecollar condtioning. His lead in paragraph is quoted below:

"I didn't include debolt in the video, because it is really a minor step in the program. It is not necessary for all dogs, and one day of it is certainly adequate for most dogs. It would be a significant step if you observed a bolting tendency in your dog during conditioning."

He also indicates that debolting will help minimize the risk of bolting but it will not eliminate bolting that has its origins in poor, irrational or cruel use of the ecollar.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Not that I doubt that he said it but.......I would like to see the context of that comment on not de-bolting attributed to Mike Lardy, and ask him a few questions on his method for deciding those dogs that do
> john


Maybe you could email him. He is a sponsor of this site.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> You are just making a fool of yourselves at this point...
> 
> Anyone who has youtube videos already knows that you can't change the title on a video without deleting the video and re uploading it again.
> 
> You should google some facts before you try spreading your next line of BS!


this is it, the Camels' back has enough straw.
just unbelievable Jamie.
I am clicking the red triangle now administrators.
just unbelievable Jamie.
　
　
.


----------



## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Sorry guys. I swear I was trying to help.


Told ya! As the saying goes, "Nice guys always finish last." 

You need a mentor. Wish I could recommend one but no one comes to mind...


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Told ya! As the saying goes, "Nice guys always finish last."
> 
> You need a mentor. Wish I could recommend one but no one comes to mind...


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> this is it, the Camels' back has enough straw.
> just unbelievable Jamie.
> I am clicking the red triangle now administrators.
> just unbelievable Jamie.
> ...



Ken,

Not to worry, if I'm a fool, I'm okay with it...now don't ruin this thread, it is very entertaining! 

BTW did you seem my video of a cold blind on FB? 

FOM


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

paul young said:


> after your "blind retrieve" video that you posted on here, we really wanted to see it in the flesh, so to speak.Paul


Posted 3 days ago by Paul. 

The move was never touched. 

End of story.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

FOM said:


> Ken,
> 
> Not to worry, if I'm a fool, I'm okay with it...now don't ruin this thread, it is very entertaining!
> 
> ...


I did not, I'll look.
Do you recognize my mentor suggestion for Chris in the photo above?
and get the joke?;-)
　
.


----------



## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

FOM said:


> BTW did you seem my video of a cold blind on FB?
> 
> FOM


I wanna see!


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Maybe you could email him. He is a sponsor of this site.


Is there a correlation between those two thoughts

john


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I have seen a dog bolt in training... the reason could have been one that has previously mentioned such as improper or inadequate cc or one that has not. In any case the dog had not been de-bolted, it was fortunate for the handler that the dog was found.
> 
> Not that I doubt that he said it but.......I would like to see the context of that comment on not de-bolting attributed to Mike Lardy, and ask him a few questions on his method for deciding those dogs that do
> john
> ...


John
I am impressed by anyone who can de bolt a dog using nicks. I am also even more so impressed by people who can FF a dog using nicks. To me thats almost God like. A dog that will bolt usually makes his intentions known way before the act ever occurs. catagorically certain temperament classifications are prone to doing this. No matter how proper your electonic pressure is.

If I were a betting man ,,I would bet that Lardy doesn't have croinic bolters on his truck. matter of fact I'll bet his truck is filled with impressive animals.

If a dog bolted during training John,,(in the field) then something went wrong. If someone choses not to "debolt a bolter then they had better understand how "not to make it bolt".


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Is there a correlation between those two thoughts
> 
> john


the "correlation" is that is if ya have a banner then you are probably selling something and you want people to be able to contact you so email addresses are included.
probably just pointing out the convenience....... but I could be wrong.;-)
　
.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I must admit, I just broke up a fight in the upstairs bathtub over who threw the snorkel mouthpiece out of the tub first. In the end, both had gotten water all over the floor and both had to towel off the entire bathroom.

I'm pretty fed up with the ticky-tacky nonsense in my own home.

Are we done picking scabs yet on good old RTF?

Chris


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I must admit, I just broke up a fight in the upstairs bathtub over who threw the snorkel mouthpiece out of the tub first. In the end, both had gotten water all over the floor and both had to towel off the entire bathroom.
> 
> I'm pretty fed up with the ticky-tacky nonsense in my own home.
> 
> ...


Tell me about it. I cant get my snivy to vine whip or tackle. His paralyzing gaze is pretty good though. His strength is way to low to beat Levi's Tepig


/Paul


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> If I were a betting man ,,I would bet that Lardy doesn't have croinic bolters on his truck. matter of fact I'll bet his truck is filled with impressive animals.


Pete- I think you would definitely win that bet. His truck is filled with impressive animals, to say the least. A recent NAFC comes to mind........... what is that dog's name again? Something to do with road construction.............


----------



## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I must admit, I just broke up a fight in the upstairs bathtub over who threw the snorkel mouthpiece out of the tub first. In the end, both had gotten water all over the floor and both had to towel off the entire bathroom.
> 
> I'm pretty fed up with the ticky-tacky nonsense in my own home.
> 
> ...


God, I hope so. This crap is getting pretty old.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Tell me about it. I cant get my snivy to vine whip or tackle. His paralyzing gaze is pretty good though. His strength is way to low to beat Levi's Tepig
> 
> 
> /Paul


Is this Pokemon or videogame talk?

My kids probably speak this language, but I really don't get it. Well, other than Pikachu. But everybody knows Pikachu.

Chris


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> But everybody knows Pikachu.


Not everyone. Not a big Pokemon fan.


----------



## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> IBut everybody knows Pikachu.


I guess I am not everyone. What am I missing now? 

And for the record, I was talking about a mentor to coach Chris about the evils of being the nice guy. Sometimes you guys are so slow. 



Packie said:


> The move was never touched.


I'm guessing bad delivery.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I must admit, I just broke up a fight in the upstairs bathtub over who threw the snorkel mouthpiece out of the tub first. In the end, both had gotten water all over the floor and both had to towel off the entire bathroom.
> 
> I'm pretty fed up with the ticky-tacky nonsense in my own home.
> 
> ...


PEOPLE!!! Does Chris have to stop this car?!?!?!?! :x :lol: :x :lol: :x :lol:


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> I guess I am not everyone. What am I missing now?
> 
> .


Pokemon. I googled it. Glad I don't know about them.


----------



## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

JS said:


> PEOPLE!!! Does Chris have to stop this car?!?!?!?! :x :lol: :x :lol: :x :lol:


Just the opposite. I'm thinking more fuel, more hits, better sponsorship....


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

I don't know about you guys, but I love hockey.....

TWO MINUTES PENALTY BOX......HIGHSTICKING!!

WRL


----------



## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

WRL said:


> HIGHSTICKING!!
> 
> WRL


Nice, finally someone who understands an innuendo. And away we go...


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

mlopez said:


> I wanna see!


I'm actuallyaway from home training for the weekend, I can't change the link to "public" until I get home (on my iPhone) - will post link when I do, plus pictures of the setups that I have.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Pic- A- chu. That's what ******** say to their buddy when standing ina line at the local gas station. Billy bob. ( pick a chew) and get the hell outa My way I need to get some smoke's 
BUMP!


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Is this Pokemon or videogame talk?
> 
> My kids probably speak this language, but I really don't get it. Well, other than Pikachu. But everybody knows Pikachu.
> 
> Chris


GF kid is a poke man master. We battled for hours tonight. I understood more in that game than most of the crud in this thread. Need to quit reading this sober, it makes no sense

/Paul


----------



## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

FOM said:


> I'm actuallyaway from home training for the weekend, I can't change the link to "public" until I get home (on my iPhone) - will post link when I do, plus pictures of the setups that I have.


Thanks! Hope the weekend of training is going well.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

I gotta admit, I'm always amused by folks cries for a "differing of the minds" in a thread to halt... after those folks have read the full 18 pages, and checked back numerous times for more....

Ya don't have to read it if ya don't like it.... but its just like a car wreck on the side of the road. Ya can't help but slow down and take a look.

Carry on....


----------

