# Breeding my female



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

So I’ve got a female out of Hardscrabbles Powder My Buns that is an HRCH SH. 

https://huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=78357

I’m looking at breeding her to Hilltops Hayseed possibly but not sure if I will yet or not. If I do it’s gonna be pretty costly for me. Just trying to get a feel for what’s a deceit price for the pups would be and would many folks want a puppy out of him. Thanks for any input you may have.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

How old? 

What is her pedigree?

Have you had hips and elbows certified through OFA? 

Eyes? 

Genetic testing for CNM, EIC, PRA, Dilute...minimum? 

What color is she? 

I assume yellow or carries yellow?

Depending on all that you'd be looking at $1000 - $1500 a pup.

Could be more if she has a strong FT bitch line.

I think it would be worth your while to put at least a MH on her before you try a breeding like that. 

If you could get a QAA the price would double. 

IMO you'd be better off breeding to living stud for much cheaper and still get $1000+ a pup.


----------



## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

Looks like an advertisement, which belongs in the puppy classifieds...

Frankly, you only get so many litters from a bitch. Breed her to what you want. If you have a good competition history with her, breed to the right stud for her (pedigree, temperament, tractability, etc), and price the pups appropriately there will be homes.

I realize you probably don't know, but this is the second "if I breed my bitch to this stud who wants a puppy?" post in the last week or so and I don't feel it belongs here.


----------



## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Charley07 said:


> So I’ve got a female out of Hardscrabbles Powder My Buns that is an HRCH SH.
> I’m looking at breeding her to Hilltops Hayseed possibly but not sure if I will yet or not. If I do it’s gonna be pretty costly for me. Just trying to get a feel for what’s a deceit price for the pups would be and would many folks want a puppy out of him. Thanks for any input you may have.


One rule of thumb on puppy price is equate it to your STUD FEE.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

You better have a good repro vet if this is your first breeding with her to risk the cost of using vintage frozen semen. Why do you want to breed her now? Is she older already? Don't count your chickens before they are hatched and assume getting pups from frozen semen is a given. Look at how much money you are willing to risk and not how much you will make, unless all you want is a pup for yourself, you should ascertain if you female can carry pups. Add in a c-section cost if you only have a singleton.

At six years old for a first litter you are already getting in the decreased fertility zone due to the damage every heat cycle does to the uterus according to Dr Hutchinson, a fertility expert.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Reginald said:


> One rule of thumb on puppy price is equate it to your STUD FEE.


How is that a rule of thumb? I assume Bubba straws are at least 3000+. No way a litter from an HRCH SH would sell for 3000 unless the bitch has produced title dogs in a previous litter. Like mentioned above, FC/AFC x HRCH SH first litter is 1000-1200 maybe 1500. Very unlikely you will make money from your first breeding. Would be cheaper to buy the puppy you want.


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes she’s had all her testing. EIC CNM clear Good hips Eyes CERF She’s 6 years old. Yellow with hidden black and comes out of a FC AFC along with an NFC being grand father on mother’s side. I duck hunt more than I trialed so that’s why she don’t have more titles on her.


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

Also she has had pups before. Her first litter has MNH and GRHRCH dogs in them. Another litter is doing well and working on MH dogs now and she was bred to a HRCH MNH7 Sire that time.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

If this is a puppy for you and this is the stud you want I wouldn't worry about puppy pricing nor taking a risk. A working girl (your girl) will only have so many litters. If you want a pup out of her, use the stud you want; even if it doesn't really make financial since. Now for a $3000 stud; I most likely would prove she can have pups with a live-breeding first (you've done this already). If I was breeding to sell puppies, I might be more concerned; but when I'm breeding for myself my goal is one Puppy for me. If there's more pups, then everyone else gets puppies that they might pay significant money for or they might just get a really good deal on. 

Recently Rebel puppies were priced at $3000 not sure if they sold at that, but if I wanted a Rebel pup I might have bought one; as there aren't going to be that many more. I don't know if Hilltops Hayseed was one of those "popular" studs that people really would pay $$$$ for (ex; Lean Mac, Bored out Ford, etc). It might just be a select group; but nothing wrong with that. Sometimes buyers you wouldn't expect come out of the wood-work. I have a list of a bunch of studs that weren't super popular, but if a litter came up from them I might be really tempted, to purchase. It's a gamble, but I haven't ever regretted investing the money into my girls to get the stud I wanted. Even when such hasn't resulted in a litter.

What about a Hilltops Son? FC AFC Valtor's Hayseed Kid, FC AFC Holy Cross's Moses, AFC Hilltop's Boondocker , FC CFC CAFC TaylorsLab Magic Trick MH CD, FC Hilltop's Mountain Music; there's also seems to be a bunch of GHRCH QAA out of him; of course who knows depending on the Son' it might cost less or more. .


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

> I think it would be worth your while to put at least a MH on her before you try a breeding like that.
> 
> If you could get a QAA the price would double.


Why would QAA make the price twice as much as MH?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

If you're doing even a loose line breeding on Bubba (or any of the other "old" ones for that matter), I'd strongly urge you to get PRA done on your female. 

Stud fee very often has nothing to do with puppy price.

QAA does not double the puppy price. I wish. 

What determines puppy price for a particular litter involves about as many factors as there are people with opinions. One may have the market to get 2K while someone else maybe can't sell the same breeding for 1K.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Why would QAA make the price twice as much as MH?


My Opinion is it won't, titles do help but the lines are more important. Certain pedigrees can sale just as high or higher without titles. This dogs pedigree is quite good; many noteworthy dogs (if you're into yellow); in addition all the females in the pedigree have upper titles including Female FC AFCs. I doubt an additional MH or QAA would add much to puppy price. QAA is a strange distinction, it can be a very wide range of Dog. I don't see QAA alone adding significant $ to breeding prices. Unless the dog out actively campaigning; has upper level placements, upper level points, knocking on the door for AFC-FC. Then it might be more about a dog being out there and people watching her; knowing her rather, and her record rather than the QAA distinction. Heck it could also be more about what her siblings or any of her previous puppies are doing at the time.


----------



## Jared McComis (Aug 12, 2013)

For myself QAA adds plenty of value over a MH as a puppy buyer. However depending the pedigree it can all become irrelevant.


----------



## Thomas Running (Sep 19, 2011)

I really like it when the line," I hunt more then I trial that is why I don't have more titles on her!" I wish it was that easy.


----------



## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

rboudet said:


> How is that a rule of thumb? I assume Bubba straws are at least 3000+. No way a litter from an HRCH SH would sell for 3000 unless the bitch has produced title dogs in a previous litter. Like mentioned above, FC/AFC x HRCH SH first litter is 1000-1200 maybe 1500. Very unlikely you will make money from your first breeding. Would be cheaper to buy the puppy you want.


As a starting point, yes. Have you paid attention to how many MH bred to titled studs are in the 2-2500 range? It is the biggest reason why FC x FC puppies are in the 4 range or up.

A bitch bred to a deceased producer like Bubba I believe the puppy price certainly can start at the Stud fee. 

You breed your MH to Lean Mac you starting at 1500?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Plenty of MH bred to FC AFC going for way less than 2-2500 too.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

FC x MH can be had all day for $1000-$1500. Last several FC x QAA litters live seen went for $2500-$3000. 

Just reporting what I see.


----------



## rrwilly (Jul 22, 2009)

Are you saying Bubba is a PRA carrier? Bubbas’s stud fee is way less than what it should be!


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

rrwilly said:


> Are you saying Bubba is a PRA carrier? Bubbas’s stud fee is way less than what it should be!


I never said Bubba was PRA carrier. But there is PRA popping up in field-bred Labs as more and more are being tested for PRA. It would behoove anyone using semen from dogs pre-testing days to make sure their female is clear of everything they can, before breeding to unknowns at best. Some PRA carriers I know have a common thread going to some very popular FT dogs/bitches, and no, don't bother pm-ing me for names. I won't buy anything from anyone without at least one of the parents of a litter being tested clear of EIC/CNM/PRA/RD/OSD, SD, and maybe CMS if I suspect the pedigree. As cheap and easy as it is to test, no excuses not to.


----------



## rrwilly (Jul 22, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> rrwilly said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying Bubba is a PRA carrier? Bubbas’s stud fee is way less than what it should be!
> ...


Thanks Kim I know you know way more than most and I appreciate any of your advice! There is definitely a lot of secrets in this game and it is understandable, who wants to spend a couple hundred thousand on a dog to get an FC to have it never get bred and make a little money back. I know one of the dogs you are referring to that is a RD/OSD and CMS carrier that had his fair share of breedings. Someday it will all be out in the open but today is not the day!


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

rrwilly said:


> Thanks Kim I know you know way more than most and I appreciate any of your advice! There is definitely a lot of secrets in this game and it is understandable, who wants to spend a couple hundred thousand on a dog to get an FC to have it never get bred and make a little money back. I know one of the dogs you are referring to that is a RD/OSD and CMS carrier that had his fair share of breedings. Someday it will all be out in the open but today is not the day!


I wouldn't say I know more than most, lol, rather that I read and hear and remember, but only regarding my own breed, couldn't tell you much about any other stuff. Have been looking at another breed for a pup, non retriever, holy moly, no wonder new people are confused and taken in by less than scrupulous breeders, the dissemination of misinformation explodes across social media. Anyway, for our breed at least, being a carrier of anything brings a stigma (financially), especially for a stud, and it shouldn't be that way, but, it is, and don't want to be unfair by spreading suppositions and guesswork. Without actual DNA test results, that is all much of it is. So, my personal soapbox, play it safe and test your own so you know what you got and you can breed to carriers and unknowns if that's the stud you want for your female.


----------



## OSO-Buck (Apr 26, 2012)

Charley, what is your email. I have exceeded my PM the site tells me


----------



## mjgalante1 (Dec 8, 2018)

According to your HuntingLabPedigree post, you have an EIC cleal dog. Why the hell would you breed to a carrier?? We've been trying to breed these issues OUT of the breed. Not bring them back or recycle them. Plus the majority of your posts talk about money. It appears your interests are in the wrong place.


----------



## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

mjgalante1 said:


> According to your HuntingLabPedigree post, you have an EIC cleal dog. Why the hell would you breed to a carrier?? We've been trying to breed these issues OUT of the breed. Not bring them back or recycle them. Plus the majority of your posts talk about money. It appears your interests are in the wrong place.


Some of the best producing dogs ever were EIC carriers. I would not hesitate to breed to an EIC carrier if I felt he was a good match for my clear female. If Lean Mac, Cosmo, Ali, and others had never been bred to, that would have been a shame and the breed would be worse off for it, IMO.


----------



## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

You're going to get destroyed on here for this comment. Very uneducated to ask "why in the hell would you breed to a carrier"!!!!!


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

mjgalante1 said:


> According to your HuntingLabPedigree post, you have an EIC cleal dog. Why the hell would you breed to a carrier?? We've been trying to breed these issues OUT of the breed. Not bring them back or recycle them. Plus the majority of your posts talk about money. It appears your interests are in the wrong place.


I wouldn't hesitate to breed to an EIC carrier if my dog was clear. If it was the best stud choice for my female.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I bred my FC/AFC Freeridin Miss Kitty (EIC clear) to FC/AFC Lane's Let's Get Ready to Rumble (EIC carrier), because I thought it was a good fit and I liked the puppies from that breeding.
This time, I will breed Kitty this time to FC/AFC Leica Sabertooth (EIC carrier) because I like the mix of their pedigrees. 

Obviously, I don't subscribe to the theory that studs that are EIC carriers should be avoided like the plague.


----------



## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I am right there also on the EIC thing. Actually, given a choice, I will select an EIC carrier puppy over a clear puppy in a breeding. I just think (my opinion, don't blast me) that the carriers run better. The pup I have now, I selected a carrier over a clear, so I put my money where my mouth is


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

I believe that Lottie was a CNM carrier...people talk about her in whispered awe and she produced some lovely dogs.

Meredith


----------



## mjgalante1 (Dec 8, 2018)

1) we weren't testing for EIC and CNM when Maxx and Cosmo were being bred so your argument isn't valid. Had we known, they wouldn't have been that popular. 2) "you're going to get destroyed with this comment" ... I'm not interested in popularity. Our responsibility is to breed healthy dogs that improve the breed. Not recycle problems that could mutate again and again. 3) ask yourself what will happen if I don't breed my JH, SH or average dog? What does my (untitled) dog add to the breed? What does she have that most other dogs dont? Will the breed suffer if I dont breed?


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

mjgalante1 said:


> 1) we weren't testing for EIC and CNM when Maxx and Cosmo were being bred so your argument isn't valid. Had we known, they wouldn't have been that popular. 2) "you're going to get destroyed with this comment" ... I'm not interested in popularity. Our responsibility is to breed healthy dogs that improve the breed. Not recycle problems that could mutate again and again. 3) ask yourself what will happen if I don't breed my JH, SH or average dog? What does my (untitled) dog add to the breed? What does she have that most other dogs dont? Will the breed suffer if I dont breed?


You obviously don't have a clue! 

EIC carriers are still being bred to and are just as popular. 

Breeding an EIC carrier to a clear has 0% chance of producing an affected dog. 

If you are concerned about mutations you should be preaching against line breeding not against breeding around genetic diseases we already know about.

Breeding a carrier to clear isn't going to cause some "problem to recycle and mutate again and again"


----------



## mjgalante1 (Dec 8, 2018)

Wetdog "I will select an EIC carrier puppy over a clear puppy in a breeding. I just think (my opinion, don't blast me) that the carriers run better" Not going to blast you but are you kidding me?
It's called exercise induced collapse for a reason! This is a perfect example of the misunderstanding of the problem. Misinformed owners that keep the disease in the breed or puts it back into the breed once their dog passes a couple of HTs. Pure bred breeding priorities typically are: 1) health clearences 2) previous production of (major stake) titled dogs 3) performance of the breeding bitch. Then and only then do you sell the puppies you don't intend to keep.


----------



## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

mjgalante1 said:


> 1) we weren't testing for EIC and CNM when Maxx and Cosmo were being bred so your argument isn't valid. Had we known, they wouldn't have been that popular. 2) "you're going to get destroyed with this comment" ... I'm not interested in popularity. Our responsibility is to breed healthy dogs that improve the breed. Not recycle problems that could mutate again and again. 3) ask yourself what will happen if I don't breed my JH, SH or average dog? What does my (untitled) dog add to the breed? What does she have that most other dogs dont? Will the breed suffer if I dont breed?


Are Cosmo and Maxx still being bred to and are the puppies in demand? Performance is a HUGE part of improving the breed. The Labrador Retriever is first and foremost a working dog. If we breed 100% clear pups that can't mark, aren't trainable, have little/no drive, is that improving the breed? Carrier vs Clear is WAY TOO NARROW of criteria in selecting a breeding pair. EIC is easily tested for and should never result in an affected puppy because we only breed carriers to clears. Folks breeding performance dogs do all the necessary testing. It's a non-issue, IMO.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

mjgalante1 said:


> Wetdog "I will select an EIC carrier puppy over a clear puppy in a breeding. I just think (my opinion, don't blast me) that the carriers run better" Not going to blast you but are you kidding me?
> It's called exercise induced collapse for a reason! This is a perfect example of the misunderstanding of the problem. Misinformed owners that keep the disease in the breed or puts it back into the breed once their dog passes a couple of HTs. Pure bred breeding priorities typically are: 1) health clearences 2) previous production of (major stake) titled dogs 3) performance of the breeding bitch. Then and only then do you sell the puppies you don't intend to keep.


I'm not sure I have the energy right now to educate you. 

0% chance of producing an affected pup breeding a carrier to a clear. 

Read this and get back to us. 

It is impossible to eliminate the gene from the population. If it was possible that would be the only reason to consider completely eliminating carriers from breeding. 

https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/bl...cessive-diseases-why-it-should-be-considered/


----------



## mjgalante1 (Dec 8, 2018)

Thanks for your offer to educate, but I've spoken with PawPrint, OFA, and Auburn University several times. Plus worked with Pfizer Animal Health for five years. Truth is we can't test for the unknown and only test after a (serious) problem develops. We don't know how or if these mutations will reproduce so why keep or reintroduce a mutation that could effect other cells? They could also develop into a strain that is missed by our current testing. PawPrints article is spot on, however there are plenty of clear, healthy, titled Labrodors in the gene pool spread over a vast array of lineage. Unless the dogs offer superior traits that advance the breed, the risks are too great.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

mjgalante1 said:


> Thanks for your offer to educate, but I've spoken with PawPrint, OFA, and Auburn University several times. Plus worked with Pfizer Animal Health for five years. Truth is we can't test for the unknown and only test after a (serious) problem develops. We don't know how or if these mutations will reproduce so why keep or reintroduce a mutation that could effect other cells? They could also develop into a strain that is missed by our current testing. PawPrints article is spot on, however there are plenty of clear, healthy, titled Labrodors in the gene pool spread over a vast array of lineage. Unless the dogs offer superior traits that advance the breed, the risks are too great.




I've never heard or read anywhere that a recessive mutation has a greater chance to mutate into something else. That just doesn't make sense. Why would it have a higher risk of mutating vs any other gene? 

We've been breeding carriers to clears for a long time with no issues. 

The article is pretty clear that the only reason to eliminate carriers from breeding is if you could eliminate the gene entirely. That's not possible with EIC.


----------



## OSO-Buck (Apr 26, 2012)

Hi Charley, do you have an email?


----------



## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

mjgalante1 said:


> Thanks for your offer to educate, but I've spoken with PawPrint, OFA, and Auburn University several times. Plus worked with Pfizer Animal Health for five years. Truth is we can't test for the unknown and only test after a (serious) problem develops. We don't know how or if these mutations will reproduce so why keep or reintroduce a mutation that could effect other cells? They could also develop into a strain that is missed by our current testing. PawPrints article is spot on, however there are plenty of clear, healthy, titled Labrodors in the gene pool spread over a vast array of lineage. Unless the dogs offer superior traits that advance the breed, the risks are too great.


You sure seem to know an awful lot. It might be helpful if you either tell us who you are or give us a quick rundown on your accomplishments as a breeder or trainer of field Labradors. It could lend some weight to your opinions.


----------



## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

wetdog said:


> I am right there also on the EIC thing. Actually, given a choice, I will select an EIC carrier puppy over a clear puppy in a breeding. I just think (my opinion, don't blast me) that the carriers run better. The pup I have now, I selected a carrier over a clear, so I put my money where my mouth is


I just did the same thing. I don't pretend that I have any subjective evidence that supports the theory. It's more like a "hunch" based on observation. More than likely it is completely invalid, but if our pups turn out well, the hunch is validated for a sample of two. ;-)


----------



## rrwilly (Jul 22, 2009)

I’m pretty sure I read a statement by one or more of the genetic testing companies that eliminating carriers from the gene pool is a BAD idea because it narrows the pools too much


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Just some food for thought—once the stud book is CLOSED, we cannot “improve” the breed because we cannot introduce anything new. We can only attempt to maintain and preserve the designated breed characteristics.

Meredith


----------



## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Matt McKenzie said:


> I just did the same thing. I don't pretend that I have any subjective evidence that supports the theory. It's more like a "hunch" based on observation. More than likely it is completely invalid, but if our pups turn out well, the hunch is validated for a sample of two. ;-)


Actually a sample of three! My other dog Abby is also an EIC carrier, again selected on purpose. She turned out pretty good, probably the best dog I will ever own! To add to performance, she is 10 now and still in very good health and no other issues such as ligament problems, tooth problems, etc. Not saying any of that has to do with the EIC carrier status, but it is hard not to try and select for things I feel good about. Guess I am ruining the breed. We are all entitled to our opinions.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

rrwilly said:


> I’m pretty sure I read a statement by one or more of the genetic testing companies that eliminating carriers from the gene pool is a BAD idea because it narrows the pools too much


The only reason to eliminate carriers is if the possibility exists to eliminate the syndrome entirely. That possibility does not exist with EIC. 

I have never read or heard anywhere that a mutated gene could somehow affect the cells around it and cause other issues and other mutations....as someone has suggested on this post. 

That just doesn't make any sense.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> That just doesn't make any sense.


Bryan, please do not let logic stand in the way of a good argument.......


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

OSO-Buck delete a mesg or two and I will pm you. Thanks


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

I have never bred my female to a carrier for the simple fact that the studs I used were clear of EIC. This time I want a more powerful dog and from the looks of things as far as a Yellow stud is that some of them are carriers. At least the ones that I would like to have a pup out of anyways. If I would have known more about Field Trials back when my girl was just starting her training then she could have easily had derby points been qualified all age and maybe even more. Even the trainer at the time kept telling me my dog could do so much more. But At the time I was only interested in Hunt Test. Stupid me wasn’t looking at the future at that time in my life. 

I don’t and I’m not trying to hurt the breed in anyway. I’m not trying to introduce no EIC affected dogs or anything like that. I have one of my EIC clear males right now and I’m gonna sell him because he’s not what I want. He will make an excellent hunting companion and house pet. He just don’t have the desire to play the games that I want to play now. So therefore I’m looking at breeding to a higher quality Stud to get the caliber dog that I want. I am looking at keeping a yellow female this time actually. I appreciate everyone’s info. And I’m sorry if some of you have taken what I First posted that I was trying to see who wanted to buy a pup. I actually found out that Bubba will have some pups on the ground in another month. I was just trying to get some feed back on what some folks thought about the breeding of my female and Bubba. Or possibly some suggestions of other yellow studs that have their FC AFC. Just my preference but I don’t like any of the dogs that have came out of Paddle Creeks Pack Your Grip (Trav). I had an offspring from him as well and it was a bad experience. Anyways I hope everyone has a great weekend.


----------



## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

Charley07

Don't you think that it's ironic that some of the best studs that have produced the most FC, AFC in the sport were carriers? If I were you I would breed to whatever stud that you wanted to being carrier or clear. I certainly would not breed 2 carriers but I would not shy away from a clear/carrier. Do your research on each stud and I'm sure you probably have on the offspring they have produced as well as their retriever results. If I had 2 options.. stud 1 had more FT points but was not producing FC offspring vs stud 2 that has less FT points and produces more titled offspring. Good luck on your breeding and do what you want to do and not based on others opinions. We all have them and you know the saying...


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

WOW. Testing is a tool. Eliminating carriers of These diseases we are discussing is extremely short sighted and shows a lack of understanding of how to manage disease and genes. Time to get educated on population genetics. Our gene pool may be larger than most, but it is not as large as people seem to think it is.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> Are Cosmo and Maxx still being bred to and are the puppies in demand? Performance is a HUGE part of improving the breed. The Labrador Retriever is first and foremost a working dog. If we breed 100% clear pups that can't mark, aren't trainable, have little/no drive, is that improving the breed? Carrier vs Clear is WAY TOO NARROW of criteria in selecting a breeding pair. EIC is easily tested for and should never result in an affected puppy because we only breed carriers to clears. Folks breeding performance dogs do all the necessary testing. It's a non-issue, IMO.


This is part of the reason why you don't eliminate 35% of the genetic population for a gene is that it generates COMMON. The other reason is you are bringing out the unwanted recessive genes with new weird deleterious diseases. It's bad enough certain studs have bottle-necked the breed. EIC has probably been with us for many decades and it was carried in many of the most famous, talented dogs that you don't want to eliminate their other genes from the gene pool. Many people have problems with understanding what really happens.

What is actually worse than breeding with testing, is linebreeding without being able to test, and yet that seems to be in vogue by those that just discovered linebreeding.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My feeling is if I have a EIC clear Female, I prefer to breed to an EIC carrier male. Why? 1) most people tend to overlook superior males just because of their carrier status; sometimes you can get a really good deal-match on a dog that others don't ever consider. 2) In order to ensure that Excellent dogs, continue to contribute to the gene pool and we aren't cutting out 2 many dogs; for one dumb little gene we can easily breed around. A lot of other stuff we don't know about that can't be bred around. You cut out all the EIC carriers and then something else pops up, in the Clear dogs, you might not have enough genetic variability to breed around the new issue. (ask Dobermans, flat-coats, and many other breeds with severely limited gene pools)

Also until a few years ago, Carriers tended to be the more talented dogs, in many case today this is still true. (Gasp!!-the Heck you say) but if this wasn't true why are most of the historically great dogs and lines carriers? Heck we most likely would've never seen the EIC condition at all, if something to do with the trait wasn't producing better performance. When the test first came out you could pretty watch a dog run, and peg whether the dog was a EIC carrier or Clear just based upon dog demeanor, and marking ability. It's getting harder to peg these days, but initially EIC clear dogs were few and far between. Now that we have the test there are and will continue to be more EIC clear Top dogs to choose from . I'm somewhat glad that breeders are pushing to clear for their studs, but only because now my females are Carriers. Why do I keep Carriers? I just pick the Pup that seems to be superior to the others, most of the time those pups the turn out to be carriers; 4 for 4 so far. Perhaps one of these days I'll unintentionally pick a clear pup, then I will be able to eventually match her up to a long list of EIC carrier males, who by all accounts should be better represented in the breed.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> When the test first came out you could pretty watch a dog run, and peg whether the dog was a EIC carrier or Clear just based upon dog demeanor, and marking ability.


I’m calling BS on that one, you give yourself too much credit and just invalidated whatever else in your post is/was plausible.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

EdA said:


> I’m calling BS on that one, you give yourself too much credit and just invalidated whatever else in your post is/was plausible.


Agree, wholeheartedly.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

EdA said:


> I’m calling BS on that one, you give yourself too much credit and just invalidated whatever else in your post is/was plausible.


Wouldn't be the first nor last time . Can only go by my own experience, and the dogs-test results I'm familiar with for case study. Everyone can believe what they want in regard to plausible, generalizes-tendencies pretty sure no-one has ever published a study on any generalities-tendencies of dogs-lines; but they seem to come up over and over again because of repetitive observation.

All I know is I have tested a lot of dogs for EIC. The dogs I keep, dogs I like and dogs I might be interested in breeding to or getting a puppy from; tend to always be EIC carriers. The clear results I've had come back were slower more methodical dogs, not as much drive, good markers; but more of the laid back, calmer type (sensitive). My experience is EIC carriers, tend to be more driven, never stop type. They tend to be more stylish and tend to save themselves with their marking ability, perhaps lacking manners-control. Pedigree wise all were, intermixing of Maxx, Harley, Nitro, Rebel, PDQ, Ben, Jazztime. 

So far, Of the dogs I've kept; only my first dog was EIC clear, she is a good dog got all her titles and all that; but never had the retrieving desire to play field games. Since then every dog I've kept and tested has come back a carrier. Heck If one of the dogs I choose to keep from a mixed clear/carrier litter; doesn't come back carrier I think I will fall out of my chair; but I do hope it happens one of these days.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Oh. My. Word. 

I've bred alot, been to alot of HT and FT and tested a whole bunch of litters since the EIC test came out. NO way on god's green earth can those generalizations hold up. Of my 4 current MH/QAA dogs, 1 is EIC carrier, NONE of those 4 are in any way, shape or form lacking drive, marking ability comparing clear to carrier, I'd wager a whole bunch of money you couldn't watch them work and say which one was a carrier. Two of my other MH are both EIC carrier and they simply could not be more laid back and methodical. Of my very first group I tested when it first came out, two MH, one a Maxx gd, one a Cosmo bitch, both came back carrier, the LM bitch was cranked and noisy, excellent marker, bitch on blinds, the Cosmo bitch carrier, very methodical and slow, reliable marker, very nice blinds when she didn't no go, but slow. Got dropped for lack of style even once. Two full sisters, one was superb, the other couldn't mark her way out of a paper bag half the time. Both carriers. I guess I am just flat stupid that I can't tell which of mine are clears and carriers and have to rely on some pathetic ol' DNA test. 

Really, some of this stuff is better than reading the National Enquirer while standing in line at the grocery.


----------



## Thomas Running (Sep 19, 2011)

Kim, you nailed it. Your last line is priceless and refers to so much of this stuff that gets posted.


----------



## Rob DeHaven (Jan 6, 2003)

I’ve got a mother daughter pair I would put at the top of any list as far as drive and they are clear. I will agree with the others that there’s no way that has any bearing on drive.


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

I wasn’t trying to get every one on the EIC topic but I have enjoyed reading everyone’s input. I was hoping that I could get some feedback on the breeding that I was looking at and no I wasn’t trying to see who wanted to buy a pup. I’m wanting to see if that would be the breeding that I need to do to play the games I’m wanting to play. I don’t want any dwarfism or overbite or underbite throwing studs either. I’m looking at starting in Derbies then looking at QAA, and then go from there depending on how the dog does. As far as studs that I have looked into there is Money Talks II, TNT Explosion and Gunstocks Topshelf Snap Decison. Also a Money Talks II son called AKs Taking Money to the Bank. I’m staying away from the Travler lines. Haven’t had good luck with that bloodline. I want a yellow Stud for my girl. I am not trying to spend the most money but I would like to breed a pup for myself along with being able to sell the ones I don’t keep for myself. So if anyone knows of some other nice yellow studs then please let me know. Thank you for any suggestions you may have. And a shout out to huntemup for the studs that they have recommended to me. Thank you again for any info anyone may have.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Interested in a Black/Yellow factored stud? 

It would open up your options. 

I would say Grady but is that not an option since you are wanting to stay away from traveler? 

NAFC Mully (might not breed to a SH) 
FC AFC Mickey 

Both are yellow factored..


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Two that I train with:
Yellow AFC Simba’s Top Cat (FC-AFC Small Craft Advisory X FC-AFC Bayou Star’s Beyond Independent)
Black tri factored FC-AFC Knockout Punch


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Charley07 said:


> I wasn’t trying to get every one on the EIC topic but I have enjoyed reading everyone’s input. I was hoping that I could get some feedback on the breeding that I was looking at and no I wasn’t trying to see who wanted to buy a pup. I’m wanting to see if that would be the breeding that I need to do to play the games I’m wanting to play. I don’t want any dwarfism or overbite or underbite throwing studs either. I’m looking at starting in Derbies then looking at QAA, and then go from there depending on how the dog does. As far as studs that I have looked into there is Money Talks II, TNT Explosion and Gunstocks Topshelf Snap Decison. Also a Money Talks II son called AKs Taking Money to the Bank. I’m staying away from the Travler lines. Haven’t had good luck with that bloodline. I want a yellow Stud for my girl. I am not trying to spend the most money but I would like to breed a pup for myself along with being able to sell the ones I don’t keep for myself. So if anyone knows of some other nice yellow studs then please let me know. Thank you for any suggestions you may have. And a shout out to huntemup for the studs that they have recommended to me. Thank you again for any info anyone may have.


If your goal is FT, then subscribe to Retriever Results. Research on producing sires, check the bitches they produced with, see if you can match up something to the pedigree of your female. If you find some FT studs that fit that bill, then you can break it down into the clearances, availability, etc. Nobody but you knows the attributes your female actually has, to tell you what stud would maybe enhance them, or not double up on something not so desirable. By sticking with strictly yellow titled studs, you're going to have a very small pool of choices. If you went with yellow factored black, you still get your own yellow pup most likely and the choices open up exponentially. Just saying, better your odds the best you can by researching for yourself to find proven producers, or at least, pedigrees that have historically nicked and follow that trail.


----------



## JMitchell (Dec 28, 2012)

Here is an accomplished stud that throws good looking yellow pups. http://www.jazztimelabs.com/our-dogs/studs/skatch/


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah I’m staying away from Grady as well. I have thought about a black that throws yellows. I may have to go with a black dog that throws yellows. It sure would open the door to a lot more studs that’s for sure.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Have you looked at Ali? He throws yellow.


----------



## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Mully throws yellow as well. Heard really good things about his pups too.


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

No I haven’t looked at either one of those. I looked at AFC Windy City’s Lone Ranger. He’s black with yellow factor. I looked at him when I actually looked at Mickey. I like the fact that Mickey gets to duck hunt with his owner along with being a super nice competitor. Throw me some others to look at.


----------



## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

Charley07 said:


> No I haven’t looked at either one of those. I looked at AFC Windy City’s Lone Ranger. He’s black with yellow factor. I looked at him when I actually looked at Mickey. I like the fact that Mickey gets to duck hunt with his owner along with being a super nice competitor. Throw me some others to look at.



Keep in mind there are two "Mickey's". Windy City's Mighty Mouse and Hockley Creek's Switch Hitter. Switch Hitter is yellow factored, I am not sure about Mighty Mouse.


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

Ok thank you for clearing that up. The one I was talking about is not yellow factored so that would make sense. I’ll look the other one up now. Where is he located or do you know?


----------



## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

Charley07 said:


> Ok thank you for clearing that up. The one I was talking about is not yellow factored so that would make sense. I’ll look the other one up now. Where is he located or do you know?



Switch Hitter is in TX. He's one hell of a dog. http://bickleyretrievers.com/mickey.html


----------



## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

How about KPR's Wet Willie?
I sure like McKinley First Ascender. Unique pedigree, great conformation and very consistent competitor. Has finished a boatload of Nationals, both open and am.


----------



## Charley07 (Jun 20, 2011)

I used to get to hunt with a Jazztime dog. Man he sure was nice. CFC CAFC HRCH UH Jazztime Hawkeye MH. Wished he had yellow in him but he don’t. Sure was a pleasure to hunt with him and watch him work at trials. A lot of folks used to watch him run when he went to the line. I do like that Skatch dog.


----------



## rrwilly (Jul 22, 2009)

FC AFC Lanes Lets Get Ready To Rumble yellow factored. I talked to Bobby a year ago and Ali was still breeding natural I believe he’s in Louisiana. This guy would be damn tough to beat if he is still standing at stud!


FC AFC B Bumble “Stinger” and FC AFC 3R's Mister Cross Your T's “Tommy” both have both cleared heart echoes and are yellow factored. These two are full siblings to NAFC Mully. Mully only gets bred to MH, QAA or higher. 

FC AFC Hyflyer's Life In The Fast Lane yellow factored “Crash”

FC AFC Drakes Bay Parting Of The Sea “Moses” yellow factored not sure his breeding status but I did see a recent litter sired by him

FC AFC Gunstock's Win Chester “Chester”
yellow. His Sire is Snapper and his Dam is a sister to Stinger, Tommy and Mully

These are a few boys I can think of off the top of my head


----------



## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Another carrier that has produced some very nice titled yellows and blacks is FC/AFC Riverruns True North.
FC/AFC Valtor's Hayseed Kid too

I own one from each.

Cosmo is also yellow factored as I had yellows when I bred to him years and years ago.


----------



## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Been away for 2 weeks / hate looking at this on my phone. 

Thanks for the post, I'm kinda in the same boat have a young female I'm wanting to breed at some point . Really wanting to get some titles on her 1st . So far very promising, had had a great yr in the blind. Just hoping work 
will allow me to get away and run some test.

Still wish we had a like button for commits... Thanks to all on the great one


----------

