# When/how do you know when you have a superstar on your hands?



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Super-stardom is in the eye of the beholder and all of our dogs are super to us. But for those who have developed (or watched the development of) a number of dogs, when did the really exceptional ones begin to emerge? Of the dogs we now think of as super-stars... did they show early potential, or did they just keep getting stronger and stronger?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

When you get a blue ribbon at a National.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> When you get a blue ribbon at a National.


When you get a blue ribbon in an Open.


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

After you've ran 12 trials with him and he's been to the fourth series 10 times you begin to think you may have something here.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I wouldn't know.  I'm not sure you can really tell until they run some events. I get told about lots of training heroes that ultimately never really break out when they hit trials.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

There is no way to reliably predict. Agree with Charles, you don't know till you know. That means trials.
My definition of superstar would be...200 AA points or better.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

When you win multiple events, make it to the last series and consistently finish everything you enter, reguardless of venue, reguardless of stake ...; but that's only good until you breed your dog and see if they can actually pass that on to the next generation consistently, and that's only good until those offspring are also consistent, and they can also pass those traits on. Oh I forgot they have to able to do such on the off season, so they actually hunt as well (most importantly they better be good at that) .


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

There only dogs!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> There only dogs!


Tough crowd...


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

1tulip said:


> Super-stardom is in the eye of the beholder and all of our dogs are super to us. But for those who have developed (or watched the development of) a number of dogs, when did the really exceptional ones begin to emerge? Of the dogs we now think of as super-stars... did they show early potential, or did they just keep getting stronger and stronger?


I've had the good fortune of training over the years with several dogs that went on to win the bowl 
in June or November. Some stood out, others did not, But they all did good things that other dogs 
did not do at that point in training. Like toast, the really good ones pop up .


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## kpolley (Jun 5, 2007)

I've heard it both ways. I heard when Big Al was a young dog....8 -9 months old, the guys throwing marks said they could hardly put a single out that he wouldn't step on. They talk about how good his memory was as he got a little older. On the other hand, I ran derbies against a dog that has since went on to title and has qualified for several nationals and his owner said he didn't like the dog much until about 13-14 months and then everything just came together. I think certain qualities show up early such as boldness, ability to deal with pressure and keep trying as well as thier attitude in water.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

when someone offers you a bunch of money for your dog.....and you actually consider taking it;-)


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

When somebody else wants to give you lots and lots of money for your animal. Smile!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

When you get a call from what's it's name's people offering to buy your dog as soon as word gets out you have a DOG. Then agrees to let you keep dog, foot bills and you continue to run dog in amateur with goal of national trophy for them not you.
Do people really do that now??
.
.
PS
If no one calls you may still have a decent dog that can finish FT's but unlikely have a Superstar.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Define superstar? Wouldn't you have had to have a superstar to know what a superstar is? How many people who visit this site would know?


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

EdA said:


> Define superstar? Wouldn't you have had to have a superstar to know what a superstar is? How many people who visit this site would know?


You are of course right. On the other hand, this sight represents an immense "institutional memory"... plus everyone has an opinion. 

Define Superstar: Well, I think I should have said "prodigy" rather than Super Star. I was trying to see if there is any consensus on what a destined-for-greatness dog would look like at 6 months, a year, and so on. And I think there must be some hints because the in-demand pros are quite selective in which dogs they spend time on. And... obviously, I have a young dog and am hoping someone will chime in and describe her to the T. So that's why I brought it up.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

When SHE has performed respectfully picking up your limit of ducks on a 10 Degree December morning!

All the work has paid off!

You can dry her off with a ribbon or two!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

EdA said:


> Define superstar? Wouldn't you have had to have a superstar to know what a superstar is? How many people who visit this site would know?


A very very select few and those that are qualified to answer are the only ones that matter


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Judged a derby a few weeks back and a 8 month old placed, didn't know or pay attention untill someone told me after the trial, very good line manners, honest in the water and could mark, not sure it she will ever be a super star, but pretty impressive for a 8 month old puppy...


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## 480/277 (Jun 5, 2014)

MooseGooser said:


> When SHE has performed respectfully picking up your limit of ducks on a 10 Degree December morning!
> 
> All the work has paid off!
> 
> You can dry her off with a ribbon or two!


what he said!!!


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

EdA said:


> Define superstar? Wouldn't you have had to have a superstar to know what a superstar is? How many people who visit this site would know?


 There are "Greats" and they can be counted with your fingers and maybe a few toes.. I believe the average age that ran the National AM. this year was 7.7? I was always told a Labrador hits its prime at 5.6yrs...?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> Judged a derby a few weeks back and a 8 month old placed, didn't know or pay attention untill someone told me after the trial, very good line manners, honest in the water and could mark, not sure it she will ever be a super star, but pretty impressive for a 8 month old puppy...


Can remember plenty of folks on this very site telling a guy with a little Chocolate female he was an idiot for running derbies at that age... He did OK in derbies... Doing OK in the CNARC which wraps up tomorrow too. If the owner thinks the dog is a superstar... Well hell, I say it's a superstar.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Can remember plenty of folks on this very site telling a guy with a little Chocolate female he was an idiot for running derbies at that age... He did OK in derbies... Doing OK in the CNARC which wraps up tomorrow too. If the owner thinks the dog is a superstar... Well hell, I say it's a superstar.


I had to look when I got home, and the dog jammed a derby at 6 months, I think this was it's 3rd or 4th. when it ran under me, bottom line the dog hasn't had a whole lot of training by 8 months, and most good derby dogs don't run until there 18+ monthes old, so this tells me this dog has very "naturally" talented and honest in and around the water and runs/swims straight.

Everyone has there own idea of a superstar, there are great meatdogs that would make most NFC's look foolish in the marsh and those same meatdogs may not be able get through the first series of a easy Q , as lond as YOUR dog puts a smile on YOUR face in training/trialing/HTing and hunting thats all that matters..


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> When SHE has performed respectfully picking up your limit of ducks on a 10 Degree December morning!
> 
> All the work has paid off!
> 
> You can dry her off with a ribbon or two!


When I can go to the duck blind around 11:30 AM on a 72 degree day in shorts and a t-shirt, and actually hit any ducks that I aim at, I'm sure she will pick every one of them up.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

When you finish a derby and an open the same weekend ..... you have a special dog...Randy


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Randy Bohn said:


> When you finish a derby and an open the same weekend ..... you have a special dog...Randy


I wouldn't know... But I would agree!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Randy Bohn said:


> When you finish a derby and an open the same weekend ..... you have a special dog...Randy


Using that criteria, it would help the dog reach greatness if his handler knew what she was doing on the line, huh? (Big sigh!)


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

tulip....move to Pa. i'd be glad to give you a hand in the handling/training part...just bring that special dog with....Randy


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Randy Bohn said:


> When you finish a derby and an open the same weekend ..... you have a special dog...Randy


Watergator Sam


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

There may be no way to tell how a young dog will turn out. Just because they are willing does not necessarily mean they will turn out to be a great performer.
One dog comes to mind. I never saw him run but I have battled it out with several of his offspring and most of them were well worth the trouble.
I was told by an extremely experienced trailer who was there during his training that “I would not believe what they had to do to that dog to get him to perform “
The dog, FC/AFC Rebel With A Cause


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

A superstar is that dog you see entered that makes you enter a different trial.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

When you get one that can hear your clicker at 400 yards! Then, you've got something!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> When you get one that can hear your clicker at 400 yards! Then, you've got something!


I have one that can hear "are you hungry" at 400 yards... Does that count?;-)


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## M.Schmidt (Dec 24, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> When SHE has performed respectfully picking up your limit of ducks on a 10 Degree December morning!
> 
> All the work has paid off!
> 
> You can dry her off with a ribbon or two!



that is why first and foremost have retrievers.... every thing else is water under the bridge

that said a excellent gun dog IMOP is my super star!


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Breck said:


> When you get a call from what's it's name's people offering to buy your dog as soon as word gets out you have a DOG. Then agrees to let you keep dog, foot bills and you continue to run dog in amateur with goal of national trophy for them not you.
> Do people really do that?


Yes, they do.

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

EdA said:


> Define superstar? Wouldn't you have had to have a superstar to know what a superstar is? How many people who visit this site would know?


I don't think you need to have owned or trained a superstar to know what one is, but you need the experience, the trial knowledge, and attend a lot of weekend trials and nationals to recognize the superstars. I'm referring to the talent the dog has, not what he or she has produced. 

Dr. Ed makes a good point. I think it is doubtful that many on this forum have had the opportunity to be witness to the superstars running trials today. If you attend a lot of trials in your region, you will see only the superstars of that region. When you attend all the days of a national, you see dogs from all over the country. You can make your own determination on which dogs are truly superstars. Some are superstars, but not all are superstars. 

Helen


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

you have something special when there are 3 judges instead of 2 on a semi annual basis


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

it is disappointing for the OP to have to filter thru a lot of smart arss answers when i believe he was asking a legitimate question a superstar dog is probably defined as a dominate FC
to answer your question it is a lot easier to determine when u dont have a potential superstar
to be potentially great young dogs have to tick a lot of boxes
trainabilty how quickly do they pick up concepts
attitude which can often be observed by how they return to u and how natural their honesty is
how do they perform on other peoples tests this is the essence of competition
trial temperament this is huge
how easy is it to disaster proof the dog eg on poor marks etc the quality dogs have a habit of getting out of trouble very cleverly and minimize the damage
then u have the pairing of the right handler and the right dog
and then opportunity to compete and the usage of quality training facilities
when u put all these factors together u can better ascertain if your dog is a potential superstar


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

stoney said:


> it is disappointing for the OP to have to filter thru a lot of smart arss answers when i believe he was asking a legitimate question a superstar dog is probably defined as a dominate FC
> to answer your question it is a lot easier to determine when u dont have a potential superstar
> to be potentially great young dogs have to tick a lot of boxes
> trainabilty how quickly do they pick up concepts
> ...


Thanks much. I think I've done the best I could on the genetic front. (Loaded pedigree, sire and dam both FC's) This time around, I will have the time. (Retiring.) I think I've given her the best basics foundation possible ('cause I didn't do it, she went to a proven pro.) I may have solved the training grounds issue to some extent (don't know yet for sure) because I might finally have access to year-round water.

But beings I'm older, both she and I have got to use every day making as much progress as humanly (and canine-ly) possible.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Are you looking at FT or HT ? If FT PM who she went to. What do they think of her as? 
Which ever it is have fun.

Jeff


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

1tulip said:


> You are of course right. On the other hand, this sight represents an immense "institutional memory"... plus everyone has an opinion.
> 
> Define Superstar: Well, I think I should have said "prodigy" rather than Super Star. I was trying to see if there is any consensus on what a destined-for-greatness dog would look like at 6 months, a year, and so on. And I think there must be some hints because the in-demand pros are quite selective in which dogs they spend time on. And... obviously, I have a young dog and am hoping someone will chime in and describe her to the T. So that's why I brought it up.


Even dogs that have become very nice AA, field champion dogs have greatly varied progressions to their success. I know some long time successful field trialers (with multiple nat'l champs) that will wash a promising young dog (at least to most of us) if it isn't winning in its 3rd year. In contrast, I have owned a dog that didn't get its first AA placement until age 4 but averaged 8-10 pts per year for several years thereafter & went 7 series in a nat'l. I never thought of him as a super-star & certainly not a prodigy but looking back I'd take 2-3 of him any day. In general, I'd say females show more promise early 18-30 mos but males come on strong from 30+ mos (but nothing happens "in general"). That was the case with my Stella & her litter. Pink, her sister, was the nat'l derby champ. Stella showed promise but I don't run many derbies (only 5-6 with Stella) but I knew she was good in her first derby, a JAM. Stella was the first to win an open in that litter, first to receive her FC & had the best early nat'l experience going 8 series as a 3 yr old & eventually a Nat'l Am finalist. But with maturity, Juice is now the most accomplished in that litter with Freeway close & Stella & Pink just behind. I still don't run Stella like the other littermates & she has probably not reached her potential due to my handling and fewer trials but she is the closest I have had to a very nice dog. Just to prove the opposite, I have had 3 very, very impressive young dogs that won derbies & Qs before age 2 & none of those dogs made competitive AA dogs. One is now a 3 time MN champ, another has 5 AA 2nds but is retired without a title & the other (the most talented as a derby age dog) is a hunting dog. I'd say just look at how they mark, how they work out finding birds when they are influenced by factors, how well they learn & retain training & see how they progress. But you never know how dogs are going to do until you start to win AA stakes with them. Easy to look back and say yep she was a good one but it is so difficult to win AA events you just never know.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

David...well said....and By most peoples estimation Stella is a candidate for stardom


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

if u have a FC X FC breeding u are off to a great start u have a dog with both parents that are proven trial dogs
it sounds to me like u havent been around the top dogs all that much and so u dont have a great basis of comparison but many people have taken their first dog all the way so it can be done
when i started i was lucky enough to get to train with a 2 time national ch as time went by i was able to match my bitch up against the standard
i think a lot of getting your dog up to superstar standard is understanding what is and what is not fair and reasonable hence u need to be around the top dogs regularly to build an appreciation
good luck


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> when someone offers you a bunch of money for your dog.....and you actually consider taking it;-)


Ha ha ... I guess I got one  This is a running joke with my local training friends .... I get asked often how much to buy my girl. 
So her topper box reads:


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

stoney said:


> i think a lot of getting your dog up to superstar standard is understanding what is and what is not fair and reasonable hence u need to be around the top dogs regularly to build an appreciation
> good luck


This has been an interesting thread to follow with lots of good input. Peter, can you elaborate on your statement above?

Thanks!

M


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

hi miriam
great to have u chime in
i often think off u when i pass my 2007 Canadian open poster that i had framed and is on my wall i remember that your dog is on that poster
my point was that when u compete against other great dogs on tests not off your choosing and are able to measure your own performance up against others u can often get a much more realistic assessment of how your dog stacks up
u have to win in the judges estimation not your own and i think people who have not been exposed to top class competition can be seduced by youtube vids from third rate trainers putting up rehearsed blinds and parading them as the real deal etc this makes it very difficult to gain a real appreciation of what top class dogwork is all about
almost without exception dogs win run better on training tests devised by their owners or trainers many people wonder why their dog doesn't perform to the same level in competition 
perceptive handlers will watch the great dogs and analyse the pluses and minus of each dog eventually they will realize that the greats are that way because of the sum total of what they do rather than because of any individually brilliant trait In other words there are many dogs out there who can run blinds in training like creek robber or mark like lean mac but the great dogs are a package and thru the elimination of weaknesses strengths will naturally occur
great dogs need a great trainer and great trainers have an understanding of what is fair and reasonable an example would be decheating. Decheating can be overdone to the point where sagacity is knocked out of the dog The great dog and handler teams will understand that sometimes 8 out of 10 is the optimum score and will intrinsically understand that perfection is the enemy of very good U can only do this by measuring your standards against the best in competition conditions. I evaluate my dogs performance against the field on ever run.Most dogs will run 30% better or more in training than in competition the superstars will deteriorate far less maybe only 10% that is why they win. many new and ambitious handler trainers seek perfection and fail to realize that it is often the quality of the bottom 30% of a great dogs performance that dictates the outcome of the trial not the quality of the top end
disaster proofing is critical to success and is an integral part of the superstar package great dogs are very consistent and do fewer poor runs and make less mistakes that is why they win Mistake minimization is paramount to success
if u are not around the cream of the crop u have no basis of comparison u simply cannot evaluate what is fair and reasonable . Or if u get to train with one high end dog all u end up with is your own experiences and your training partners he may have succeeded for the right reasons or he may have succeeded despite what he did either way the pool is to small to draw any lasting conclusions
personally my dog bossco is a good example he leads the nation this year in AA wins yet he is far from my best marker and i have owned better line runners and more athletic dogs which train to a higher standard yet bossco is a genuine Australian superstar and a very very dominate champion the sum total of what he does is a highly impressive package.
Knowing what is fair and reasonable means calmly calculating risk minimization tactics on blinds and being prepared to blow whistles on marks if necessary getting to watch some of the worlds best dogs attempt the same tests i attempt helps to give a perspective that would otherwise not be possible
i would encourage any ambitious up and coming trainer to spend time watching open AA competition and in particular the marquee dogs and build an appreciation for what can and cannot be done


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> Define superstar? Wouldn't you have had to have a superstar to know what a superstar is? How many people who visit this site would know?


Lots of speculation not many in the arena! Running against or judging....The few are quiet.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> Lots of speculation not many in the arena! Running against or judging....The few are quiet.


And why do you think that is, Earl?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> And why do you think that is, Earl?


Hmm Ted, Forgive them Father? or what is greatness? or it is the journey with the meal and the end is the desert, some want the desert before the meal. I don't drink, so maybe like Copterdoc, who knows. Think I am going to sign-off ,got to get up early to train our superstars in the morning, 7ish, suppose to be cool on the Ill/Wisc. border.


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## Paul Frey (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, that makes mine a superstar. Couldn't be prouder!!


Todd Caswell said:


> I had to look when I got home, and the dog jammed a derby at 6 months, I think this was it's 3rd or 4th. when it ran under me, bottom line the dog hasn't had a whole lot of training by 8 months, and most good derby dogs don't run until there 18+ monthes old, so this tells me this dog has very "naturally" talented and honest in and around the water and runs/swims straight.
> 
> Everyone has there own idea of a superstar, there are great meatdogs that would make most NFC's look foolish in the marsh and those same meatdogs may not be able get through the first series of a easy Q , as lond as YOUR dog puts a smile on YOUR face in training/trialing/HTing and hunting thats all that matters..


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## scothuffman (Nov 14, 2012)

When at the end of the dogs hunting career you look back over the 12 years and realize you only lost 1 bird and that was the last week of the last season and she just didn't have the stamina to keep up with it. She actually look totally disgusted in herself that day. RIP Shadow 1989 - 2002.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> And why do you think that is, Earl?


Ted how about instead of carrying on a private conversation with Earl which has the impression of eliteism
u detail for us your lightbulb moment when one of your high profile dogs really began to convince u that they were serious players and what traits do u see that u liked and at what age??? what qualities did u detect that seperated your best dogs from the pack? and at what age and stage of training?
your posts are generally very insightful and your dogs are high profile
just maybe u are one of the FEW and u would be gracious enough to share your observations
it would be really nice and novel to be able to read a serious post on this topic I am sure the OP would appreciate it after all the drivel he has had to sift thru from morons chiming in and telling him their hunting buddy is a superstar just because it picked up a few ducks
i have detailed my opinion based on my experiences in my country your opinion would be more relevant to the OP and could really help him
how about it?????????????


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

stoney said:


> Ted how about instead of carrying on a private conversation with Earl which has the impression of eliteism
> u detail for us your lightbulb moment when one of your high profile dogs really began to convince u that they were serious players and what traits do u see that u liked and at what age??? what qualities did u detect that seperated your best dogs from the pack? and at what age and stage of training?
> your posts are generally very insightful and your dogs are high profile
> just maybe u are one of the FEW and u would be gracious enough to share your observations
> ...


Stoney, I agree with the first part of your post as it refers to elitism... However, some of us moron's may think the last half of your post is elitist itself. Sounds like you do great work with your dogs and attempt to answer posts seriously. But when you tell a moron his hunting dog is no superstar... Thats going a little too far. 

Representing morons everywhere, yours truly


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

i am sorry Bill 
i didnt mean to be offensive
i just got frustrated at the glib answers that the OP had to endure
clearly he seemed to wont to read some honest and forthright answers and i felt that someone telling him their meat dog is a superstar and that all that matters is not in the spirit of the thread
i try very hard not to be elitist my dogs do quite well in australia and i tried to give him an honest answer but the virtues needed to succeed in australia are different from what the OP would need 
he has a FC x FC breeding and seems keen and would like some serious input
i hope i am reading this right!!!
what about if ted was to share his experiences on this subject?????????? wouldnt that be great!
he is articulate and has been successful in field trials plus he has had exposure to a lot of the higher profile dogs
i for one would be interested in his opinion


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

stoney said:


> i am sorry Bill
> i didnt mean to be offensive
> i just got frustrated at the glib answers that the OP had to endure
> clearly he seemed to wont to read some honest and forthright answers and i felt that someone telling him their meat dog is a superstar and that all that matters is not in the spirit of the thread
> ...


Hey Stoney, no harm, no foul. I was using humor as I tend to do. 

Be interesting to see where it goes...


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*I believe everyone's definition of superstar is different. My daughters love their chi's and they feel they are superstars, me I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for them, but they love them! I would define a superstar as one who is very consistent and always there at the end. 

Aaron*


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

1tulip said:


> Super-stardom is in the eye of the beholder and all of our dogs are super to us. But for those who have developed (or watched the development of) a number of dogs, when did the really exceptional ones begin to emerge? Of the dogs we now think of as super-stars... did they show early potential, or did they just keep getting stronger and stronger?


Aaron your definition is very clearly not the definition that the OP had in mind and is irrelevant to this thread


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

There are so many things that factor in , many folks that haven't judged all-age stakes in significant numbers judging dog after dog , many whom are great it is hard to describe. If you haven't played in the arena at a high level, FC/AFC , National level, same with hunt tests, it is hard to explain. Some simple examples are a dog with perhaps 170 all-age points, qualified for more then a few Nationals, but, never got past the fifth or sixth series at the National level. Other dogs not nearly that pointed have become NFC's . Which one is the superstar? National Derby champions who "barely" became titled dogs with the bare minimum points number. Dogs that were run by amateurs who won several opens and made a FC/AFC with the two open wins, but, never qualified at the National level. Dogs that have up to 30 starts a year vrs dogs that have 10 that qualify for a National every year. Young dogs that have won and placed in the Amateur or Open while still a derby dog, but, don't go on to do superstar things. Dogs that are double header winners, (in my opinion harder to do then finish a National) who never had derby point And were run in hunt tests with a MH after their name before a FC/AFC was in front of their name. Dogs that are purchased, have the best training known to retrieverdom that perhaps never run the dog , how did the dog get to that level? Dogs that are buried because of a lack of money, even though there is greatness there and never campaigned at the level that they should. I have had experience with some of the above and others on this Board have a ton of experience with all of it, now Stoney what was the question?


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

When people ask you when you are going to breed him or her.... they want one just like him..


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

To the OP a fair question would be to do a PM or ask, Bill, Ted, Randy, Ed, and others what they first noticed with their National Caliber dogs that they thought showed promise, that way no one is going to be that arrogant to proclaim their dog a superstar )I don't think (lol) . Just a thought..might get better answers. That would also be more productive in getting what you are seeking.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> To the OP a fair question would be to do a PM or ask, Bill, Ted, Randy, Ed, and others what they first noticed with their National Caliber dogs that they thought showed promise, that way no one is going to be that arrogant to proclaim their dog a superstar )I don't think (lol) . Just a thought..might get better answers. That would also be more productive in getting what you are seeking.


Humility is not an uncommon trait with field trailers and tooting your one's horn is not something most do indiscriminately. I have been fortunate enough to have lived with several stars who others might consider superstars and at least 5 who would be superstar candidates by most standards. There was no single common or defining moment for any of them although some displayed their likely ascension to greatness earlier than others.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ok Stoney I will play along only to show you my post wasnt some smart assed answer:

when Clint had Judge win at such an early age a couple of things became very evident

1. everybody and their kid sister started giving him unsolicited opinions on what to do with him

2. those opinions came in the form of people telling him "...son,you're going to ruin that dog by pushing him that fast..." to " ...its a fluke, and you got lucky"

4. the weekend he won the Open at RMRC in Colorado he darn near completed a DH, people were coming up and congratulating him, even DL Walters came up and told him as he walked away from the 4th series " congrats...you just won yourself a doubleheader"...the judges however called for another series

that evening a very wealthy man offered him what at the time would have been a record amount for a Judge (two years earlier Wanapum Yo Yo sold for 22K) which was a ton of money for circa 1973. I know it happened because when that same man sat with me the following year at the National Am he told me what he offered and said the offer still stood...

5 . Bill Tarrant even made light of the situation when word got out of the offer and he wrote in his Sports Afield monthly column "....it was a meeting of two fools, the one who offered it and the one who refused it.."

6. when Clint appeared at the National Amateur with a 25month old dog, the same trainer that told him would ruin the dog apologized and said "...son, I didnt think anyone could produce an All Age dog before the age of 2 but you proved me wrong.."

7. Everyone told Clint to sell, including family (except me) I knew he wasnt going to sell him even though the money was the equivalent of six figures now...to the people that thought it was a fluke and that he got lucky. Clint proved they were wrong, his second dog John Rex Rascal won two Amateurs before age 3 and he again had the youngest dog qualified for the National Am...and the offers started coming in for Rex, also because his sire had just won the previous year's National Am

the story has a unique ending....after going 9 series in the National Amateur at Jackson Hole in '75, Judge jumped out of the truck onto an embankment and ruptured a disc in his neck which incapacitated him...Clint drove straight home from JH Wyoming to College Station TX where a team of Vet's led by his best friend Ronny Crownover operated on Judge...Clint rehabilitated him and was intent on retiring him but almost two years later won two consecutive amateur in Idaho and Utah which qualified him for the National Am but Clint got accepted to med school and he didnt run another trial with him...Ronny and I buried Judge and Rex next to each other (since they were half brother's) near a private lake in Denton TX


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Bon thankyou for your insights its that type of post that makes RTF a great resource

Dr Ed given the huge amount of well breed puppies u must have seen over the years and the wonderful dogs u have been associated with
is there any chance u could give us some nuts and bolts info on some of the high profile dogs u have owned
can u put your finger on when u realized that one of the pups was special?? was it a single factor or a combination?
was it under competition conditions or in training?
at what age or at what level of training?
any chance u could give us a case study?
how did u rate a particular dog for as an example at 18 months in terms of marking ability
recovery from poor marks
easiness to trial
trial temperament
biddability and training attitude
how aquatic??
natural honesty?
ability to pick up new concepts?
stability at the line?
consistancy?
im surer a lot of people would be fascinated to get your insights 
being proud of what your dogs have achieved in no way portrays big noteing yourself or a lack of modesty much more just an opportunity for others to get to walk in your shoes and learn
BTW i wear my lucky national retriever club 2005 hat when i compete thank you for sending it to me the badges u sent me still sit re splendid on my auzzie acqubra hat


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

John Kelder said:


> you have something special when there are 3 judges instead of 2 on a semi annual basis





stoney said:


> it is disappointing for the OP to have to filter thru a lot of smart arss answers when i believe he was asking a legitimate question a superstar dog is probably defined as a dominate FC
> to answer your question it is a lot easier to determine when u dont have a potential superstar
> to be potentially great young dogs have to tick a lot of boxes
> trainabilty how quickly do they pick up concepts
> ...



If you thought my answer was being smart arsed , you should see my Facebook page  My reply to the OP was accurate and to the point . WHEN DO YOU KNOW ? Until you are running at Nationals on a regular basis , it is sheer speculation IMO. And BTW , you have to win at least once . Again , just my opinion .Every pup born is a potential superstar , key word being potential . Erase the word potential , and the question is entirely different in scope and meaning.


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## DFB (May 5, 2014)

Thanks for posting that Bon, and thank you Stoney for your posts. This has been a great read.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Let me try to summarize some of the themes I see emerging in the discussion. 

Strip away non-dog variables... assume certain things as constant. 
* Optimal environment
* in the hands of a successful trainer who uses a proven training program and has an ideal training environment
* has owners that have the resources to campaign the dogs

It seems the dog variable that people keep coming back to is precociousness. If that's true, then I'm assuming you start to think you've got a superstar when you see the dog march through the program at a quick clip, over-achieving not because of pressure, but because of enthusiasm and intelligence (and in-born qualities like excellent marking, love of the water and so on.)

The consensus seems to be that a dog who becomes a FC at 5-6 and is running Nationals at 9, though a great dog, is not a superstar.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Very few are superstars. Just getting an FC or AFC is a remarkable achievement.There is a big difference though in comparison to a superstar. You have gotten feedback from some who would know.Those that have them won't say. To look at a pup that has potential you have to be able to know what greatness is before you can even suppose. Get in the FT game for years pay your dues and then you "may" be able to formulate what that is.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

why not solicit the opinions of those who would have a very good idea Jeff
its a lot quicker than spending years and years paying your dues
just maybe one of the higher profile trainers on the forum will be gracious enough to share there knowledge 
Itulip i think assessing the potential of a talented youngster is a lot more than just about precociousness the factors that convince a really experienced trainer that the dog is special are very complex lets hope u can get some enlightenment


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Stoney, Those that would have knowledge enough would have to observe said potential in training, then trialing.Then after derby into Qual, then AA stakes.Not all good derby dogs make it .Same with Qual.
All dogs are not created equal.

Jeff


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

So precociousness is not necessarily the metric. OK. Can we stipulate that a superstar at least begins accumulating AA points at a reasonably appropriate age? It would seem then that, by definition, they would have to rise to the top of the heap thereafter, emerging either suddenly or on a consistent trajectory that is steeper than his peers.

Is that a fair statement? And if not... why not? I get that some of this is ineffable. But it seems some are suggesting that it's all a big gnostic mystery and you have to rise in the ranks of the retriever priesthood before you know what you're seeing.

Per responses on this thread, I've scoped out a few early FT's I can attend (I have family in AZ not far from Niland, CA.) By schmoozing the AA stakes I'll at least see where Newpup could be eventually.


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## Rocketcityretrievers (Apr 10, 2014)

When you kill 63 mallards in one morning in the flooded timber. When you light 1500 on top of you with 5 other dogs in there and she is steady as a rock, then 11 12 gauges go off to the clip. Still steady as a rock, then the dog retrieves winged cripples through the flooded timer at 100 yds away. Or in a rice field with 7 in a pit and you cripple a banded Ross goose and the dog marks it at 300 plus yds and smokes it. A dog that can line a 200 yd blind that happened 2 hours ago! That is a superstar too me!!


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## moonstonelabs (Mar 17, 2006)

This is not a question that is easy to answer. I asked Jim Gonia when he knew Angie was a unique dog. He thought it a fluke when Augie won his first AA stake at an early age. Started to change his mind as the wins started pulling up.
.
My first field trial dog, Libby, became an AFC lacking a point for her FC (Sarita won the first open she, Sarita, ever ran with Libby). She was Hams mom as well and the best friend I ever had. To me by any standard she was a great dog.

When I started running field trials I was told by more than one old hand you had a great dog if you finished.....not placed...25 percent of the trials you entered. I have since come to believe that number to be high.

Great is as great does.

Bill


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