# Ultrasound Accuracy?



## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

We did an AI with our 3 year old bitch on Dec. 11th. and an ultrasound on Jan. 31st (20 days) showed 2 only pups visible.

It has been suggested by several people (including the vet) that the ultrasound only confirms pregnancy and the actual number of pups on board is more accurately (but not necessarily precisely) determined at radiograph, scheduled for Feb. 3rd. Due date is Feb. 9th.

I know of one case where the ultrasound showed 2 but the litter turned out to be 9. Another technician felt that, in our case, 2 or 3 is a more than likely expectation. Since this is our first litter I'm not familiar with the accuracy of ultrasound as a predictor of litter size and am curious as to what others have experienced.

The basic question is, what have you seen as a ratio of ultrasound numbers to litter size?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

20 days is early to do an US, especially if you did it according to the breeding days and not with progesterones. My vet waits until 30 days. You don't do it to count pups, even at 30 days. I've had them have big litters with only a couple showing on US


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

I have bred only one litter. Ultrasound showed 3 possibly 4 pups - she had 9. 

Like your vet said it is great to confirm pregnancy but not so good for an accurate count of pups.

Andy


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

With my last litter my vet said 8-9, had 8


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

That early they would most likely only be counting heart beats within sacks. I have always had double what ultrasound found (day 35-40) since mom and babies move.


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## Amy Avery (Feb 17, 2005)

Last 2 ultra-sounds done at 30 days

Counted 10 puppies...she had 11
Counted 7 puppies...she had 8


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pete,

How big is Casey? Does she look big or not so much? She's less than 2 weeks out so she ought to be showing pretty well.

Also, is your due date based on the frozen ai date or the progesterone date of ovulation?

WRL


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

WRL said:


> Pete,
> 
> How big is Casey? Does she look big or not so much? She's less than 2 weeks out so she ought to be showing pretty well.
> 
> ...


Lee, as these pics suggest, she's really showing well.

The due date is from the Dec. 11 AI date. Casey was in residence at the vet (Calkins) for 10 days prior to insemination so progesterone could be monitored as needed. I've recorded the levels somewhere (can't locate right now) and will let you know what they were.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

I would just get an x-ray. 

With this being her first litter, there may only be two or there could be more.

She looks a bit big to me for only 2 puppies.

WRL


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I agree that she looks too big for just 2, but then what does it really matter, it's not like you could do something to alter the litter size, she will deliver whatever is there...


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

EdA said:


> I agree that she looks too big for just 2, but then what does it really matter, it's not like you could do something to alter the litter size, she will deliver whatever is there...


Believe me, I know that there's nothing that I can do to change anything. But, with this being our first litter, anxiety abounds...particularly as the day grows near.

From "The Old Man And The Boy":
_Kind of like the 23rd of December...it's not quite Christmas, but it's close enough to ruin your sleep._


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Pete..When she is on her side or back, do you see them moving or can you feel them? When Macy was preg. she had them literally kicking and swarming around, it was fun to watch and feel. I would do the xray 56-58 days, it'll help your jitters! I think one for each nipple is a perfect number I think if US on day 20 saw 2, I guess 6 2 yellows 4 black, 2 males 4 girls


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

she has 6+.....and i'm not even a vet looking at an x-ray. you should paypal me some loot.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

Depends who's doing the ultrasound, all vets aren't created equally. My vet has been right on with ultrasounds both with my smaller litters and my friends large litters. Your girl doesn't look too packed to me. Good luck


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Six might be pushing it. 

But I would say possibly more than 2.

I always x-rayed about day 50-52. 

WRL


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

precisionlabradors said:


> she has 6+.....and i'm not even a vet looking at an x-ray. you should paypal me some loot.


HEY , That was my guess, you need to split the loot w/me


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2011)

We ultra sound at 30 days it shows pups but not accurate my vet saw 5 my dog had 11


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## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

Was the ultrasound done on Dec 31st or Jan 31st?? I am guessing Dec. 31st since we haven't reached Jan 31st yet? She definitly looks pregnant, but one never knows. We had a female look like she was going to have 6 or 7 and then only had 3 (and at that they were normal sized pups). If you want a better count, I reccomend the xray as they can count skulls.



Pete_Oregon said:


> We did an AI with our 3 year old bitch on Dec. 11th. and an ultrasound on Jan. 31st (20 days) showed 2 only pups visible.
> 
> It has been suggested by several people (including the vet) that the ultrasound only confirms pregnancy and the actual number of pups on board is more accurately (but not necessarily precisely) determined at radiograph, scheduled for Feb. 3rd. Due date is Feb. 9th.
> 
> ...


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Lee,

What is the difference in day 50-52? and 56-58? Is there anything that develop during that time? My vet said day 56 was when we should xray. I personally didn't like bringing her in so close to her due date and putting her on table etc.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

duckster said:


> Lee,
> 
> What is the difference in day 50-52? and 56-58? Is there anything that develop during that time? My vet said day 56 was when we should xray. I personally didn't like bringing her in so close to her due date and putting her on table etc.


The later you do it, the more calcification and the easier it is to read, especially if there are a bunch. I do them right before they are due. A repro vet can usually give me some idea by the calcification of the feet if they will be later or pretty much right on time. Therefore, I am usually doing them 58-61 days from ovulation. That's what the repro vet recommends because she is the lady that will be on call for help. If you don't x-ray, she probably won't come in after hours and I don't want to go to an ER. My last 2 c-sections were on Sunday afternoon Thanksgiving weekend, and a Sat night. I don't do US because in a week after 30 days I can tell if they are bred.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

duckster said:


> Lee,
> 
> What is the difference in day 50-52? and 56-58? Is there anything that develop during that time? My vet said day 56 was when we should xray. I personally didn't like bringing her in so close to her due date and putting her on table etc.


The difference is, if you are going to wait that long, might as well wait until they show up.

I have pups routinely show up on day 60. So, my thinking is, if I am going to x-ray, do it sooner than later.

WRL


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Oh I see. It was our first litter and we did it more for a number so, we knew when she hopefully, had them all. Altough, I learned even with that the xray count was off by 2. However, I could feel the ones he missed moving in her belly still.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Ultrasounds don't always under estimate the number of pups. I did an ultrasound on my dog approx. 35 days after she was bred. We confirmed 8 pups by ultrasound & she had 8 pups. But as said, vets don't use an ultrasound to determine numbers, they'd rather do x-rays closer to delivery.


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## Belinda D (Apr 20, 2010)

Keep us updated and let us know how many she has. She looks big to me too for only 2.


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

The dates for the ultrasound, x-rays and due date were all established by the vet. There seems to be agreement that we might have been early on the US at day 20, irrespective of reliability for number on board. The x-ray at day 54 seems in line with most of your suggestions.

I've enjoyed reading the replies and I appreciate your sharing your experiences. This is somewhat akin to Vegas bookies setting the over/ under on a betting line. Just for fun I'm going with 6 and will be dancing in the street if it's over.

Thanks to all for your interest and I'll post the x-ray number on the afternoon of Feb. 3rd...and of course the actual number when they're on the ground!

Pete

Heard from several sources but unable to confirm author: _
"Don't tell me about the pregnancy. Show me the baby."_


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I just did my first...and last....xray on a pregnant bitch. Did it on day 55 with my regular vet office back home, right before I left to head south. Vet said absolutely no more than four puppies in there...and then whelped eleven on day 64. A total waste of $90 for sure, and one I won't do again.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I agree w/ Sharon , Just spent $120 for an xray that said 5 with a maybe for 6 and had 8....Not again.


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

Well, here is a reason for doing the xray just before pups are due: get a reasonable estimate of the puppies expected so you can make informed decisions should the delivery go awry. 

Case in point: when Gracie x-ray'd this spring, Jeff saw at least seven pups pretty distinctly and thought there might be more. When she whelped, she had 6 pups in good regular order, then stalled, stalled, and stalled over the next several hours. Administered the inducing drug, nothing, waited waited and then went off to the emergency vet a 5am. They tried to induce again, and were able to pull one more pup; then did a c-section to deliver a very healthy 8th puppy, but one that was clearly stuck and would have never survived. And a situation that would have potentially endangered Gracie. 

It was worth the xray to know how many pups were there at a minimum, and provide guidance for deciding when to get her immediate interventional care. We surely would have lost at least one if not both pups if we had stuck it out and let 'nature take its course'. To say nothing about the implications for Grace as well.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

OK, I understand the thought process....but what I don't get is how an x-ray that grossly underestimates the number of pups would be helpful in a situation like Lydia's?


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

We do 3 xrays each side and on the back to get a full view count each and hopefully get the same number.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> OK, I understand the thought process....but what I don't get is how an x-ray that grossly underestimates the number of pups would be helpful in a situation like Lydia's?


It wouldn't have.

Save the money and x-ray the day after delivery if you are unsure.

I think they are nice with SMALL litters. Then you KNOW they are bred and if they go over you can get them in for a section.

WRL


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> OK, I understand the thought process....but what I don't get is how an x-ray that grossly underestimates the number of pups would be helpful in a situation like Lydia's?


Sharon that's why I x-ray also. First of all, the count should not be more than one or two off. Either the x-ray is being done too early or the equipment is old. You don't have to do a digital xray but even I can count them except if they have more than 12 and the female is huge. I had one that had 6 pups in less than a couple of hours and then quit. We knew there were 9. Walked her, gave her oxytocin, found a foot, could not get that pup out-it was stuck and I assumed dead. It was a Sat night. She needed a c-section. The pup had been dead a little bit, breech and upside down and big, and there were 2 behind. One was in rough shape and had a lot of brown fluid and the other had a flat face on the side probably from wanting to come down and the other one being stuck. They are both boppin around today.

You can also tell if the pups are big, and I had a mother once deliver 2 no problem and one huge one was in there, dead, and missing the top of the skull. 

I never did it before but then I had 25 years of beginners luck. I would rather spend the money on the xray than an US and have a vet on call JIC.


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Well Pete???? How is she? Fat and Sassy? They should be coming soon


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Alli's ultrasound showed 5, she had 11....


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## boohc (Dec 15, 2010)

Well said! It still mother nature.:


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

duckster said:


> Well Pete???? How is she? Fat and Sassy? They should be coming soon


Apparently the xray shows about 12 or so.

WRL


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

duckster said:


> Well Pete???? How is she? Fat and Sassy? They should be coming soon


Bev took her to Calkins while I was unexpectedly called out of state. Confirmed 10 with a possiblility of 12.

Since the US showed only two, I personally believe that the "accuracy" question has been satisfactorily resolved.

Due on Wed.

Exciting times!!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Pete_Oregon said:


> Bev took her to Calkins while I was unexpectedly called out of state. Confirmed 10 with a possiblility of 12.
> 
> Since the US showed only two, I personally believe that the "accuracy" question has been satisfactorily resolved.
> 
> ...


I stopped doing them when they saw 2 and I had 9-same thing. Like I said, I can wait the week and see if they are pregnant. 
Good Luck-remember, lots of babies=be prepared early.


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## tracyw (Aug 28, 2008)

Good for you, Pete! Wow, that's a lot of pups!! Best of luck!!!


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

That's awesome!!!! You are going to have so much fun. Get your sleep now  Best wishes to healthy pups and whelping!


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

duckster said:


> That's awesome!!!! You are going to have so much fun. Get your sleep now  Best wishes to healthy pups and whelping!


Thankfully I'll have Bev on site to help us through our whelping. Here's Casey in the "delivery room".

__
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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Dang that is a nice whelping box!


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

She has a nice crib! Are her temps normal still? She is so stinking cute


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

duckster said:


> She has a nice crib! Are her temps normal still? She is so stinking cute


Temps are hanging in the normal range. 99.9 tonight. Checking morning and evening. Vet thinks she could start a day early (Tues). Will keep you posted.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

She's looking pretty big, who's the sire?


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

DMA said:


> She's looking pretty big, who's the sire?


Sire is Cody Cut A Lean Grade (Grady).


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

Boy thats tempting, good luck with the pups.


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Are you going crazy yet Pete? Lol. I bet you are anxious! I can't wait to see how many yellows and how many blacks! My guess is:

5 yellows....2males 3females
7black......3 females 4 males


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

duckster said:


> Are you going crazy yet Pete? Lol. I bet you are anxious! I can't wait to see how many yellows and how many blacks! My guess is:
> 
> 5 yellows....2males 3females
> 7black......3 females 4 males


Good grief! When you see the actual numbers it's kind of scary!

We are retaining our sanity...barely. Temps still around 99. Lots of panting and nesting around in the whelping box. Bev wants me to call her when temp drops below 98. Checking 3 X per day.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pete_Oregon said:


> Good grief! When you see the actual numbers it's kind of scary!
> 
> We are retaining our sanity...barely. Temps still around 99. Lots of panting and nesting around in the whelping box. Bev wants me to call her when temp drops below 98. Checking 3 X per day.


Panting and nesting? 

You may be having puppies right away......

They pant through labor.

Is she panting and then stopping (momentarily) and then starting up again?

WRL


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It probably did it's drop-the hard panting means it's show time usually


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Too busy whelping to respond?? 
My girl did some shivering ... her water broke and the puppies came..Hope you are close to Bev, it won't be long..make the coffee


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Puppies were born today.

Or all but the last one. Apparently a section is being done to get the "late to the party" guy....

Who wants to bet the "late one" is a male???? 

I'm sure Pete will be on soon to update everyone.

WRL


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Lee...Thanks for the update!! Yeah..it'll probably be a boy 
Sounds like Miss Casey did pretty darn good for her first bunch well...BUNDLE.


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

Funny you should say that about the last pup being a male...both pups i've had to c-sections for were males. (Third section doesn't count in that factor...whole litter was delivered that way)


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## Pete_Oregon (Nov 9, 2009)

Casey delivered 9 healthy pups yesterday. We had to c-section a 10th which couldn't be delivered due to the uterus having been exhausted and the birth canal under-lubricated. Pup 10 (male- you were right Lee) did not survive.

3 BF, 2 BM, 2 YF, 2 YM

Lee, thank you for your ongoing council. I am fortunate to have friends like you and Bev to coach me through what otherwise might have been a most daunting experience.

Mom and kids are doing fine.


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Nice job..Miss Casey and her whelping staff 
Very cute lil bunch. I'm so happy to hear she is healthy and it looks like all the lil one's are too. What an even split on Males/females as well as color. Ohhhhh, I love Puppies!


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## Belinda D (Apr 20, 2010)

Bless her heart...post some recent pics. The fun really starts once they open their eyes and become mobile. Then it's watch out world, here they come.

Where did you get the whelping box? It's great.


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

How are the pups and mom doing?


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