# Force Fetch



## crawfordw2 (Jan 8, 2013)

I have force fetched about 20 dogs over the last few years and I have seen it takes me about 4-5 weeks to get a dog to be fully finished with force fetch. What is the longest it has taken you to force fetch a dog? When do you pull the plug and say this dog just does not cut it? On a side note this is a Chessie, so if anyone has any experience force fetching them I would love to hear some feedback.


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

crawfordw2 said:


> I have force fetched about 20 dogs over the last few years and I have seen it takes me about 4-5 weeks to get a dog to be fully finished with force fetch. What is the longest it has taken you to force fetch a dog? When do you pull the plug and say this dog just does not cut it? On a side note this is a Chessie, so if anyone has any experience force fetching them I would love to hear some feedback.



Can you provide your definition of fully finished with Force Fetch? I think many might want to know what you consider that to be to give you a comparable answer to how long it takes them to get to that point.


----------



## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Since there is so many ways to Force Fetch a dog.....what have you tried?

I ask not from lots of experience but b/c I just FF'd a dog that I had to use a table(for the first time) with.

I had to put him on a wobbly fish cleaning table tied between to trees to get him to FOCUS enough
to even HOLD my gloved hand for a few seconds at a time. Then barely bumpers.....
However that at least allowed him to GET THE PICTURE
and things progressed quicker after that. Couple days of good success on the table and 
the rest only took about 2 weeks. Seemed to be a breeze after that.

Heck I've even talked to people that went back to using the Toe Hitch, Toe Stomp 
all sorts of methods for hard heads.

I think in the end, all dogs CAN BE FF, but I do wonder if a particular dog requires special attention 
if a PRO decides to just say nope, your done (b/c they don't have time for Special Attention Dogs).

I know this happens, but it's a pretty close kept secret.

So what have you done so far is what I'd be interested in hearing.


----------



## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

"On a side note this is a Chessie,........" Prolly should lead off with that . Use what you know about force fetch as a guide but don't expect it to go the same way or using the same Calendar. The Chessie will ultimately decide if he/she is going to allow you to force fetch or not. You will have little say in it.
Good Luck


----------



## crawfordw2 (Jan 8, 2013)

freezeland said:


> Can you provide your definition of fully finished with Force Fetch? I think many might want to know what you consider that to be to give you a comparable answer to how long it takes them to get to that point.


My definition of fully forced fetched would be forced to a pile.


----------



## crawfordw2 (Jan 8, 2013)

Dustin D said:


> So what have you done so far is what I'd be interested in hearing.


On F.F. table- Hand Hold, Ear Pinch, hold conditioning while walking
Ground work- Ear pinch (while I hold bumper)

Moving from the table to the ground has blown his mind. Will not pick up bumper off ground. If I hold the bumper just off the ground he will pick it up. Once he picks it up he will walk at heal with it in his mouth and not drop it until commanded to do so. 

He has learned somethings through this process but just wondering if I am wasting my time?


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Sounds like good methodology. But it's hard to know about the application without seeing at least one session.

Evan


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Moving to the ground can be a bump in the road. I have seen it a fair amount. A couple of things I tried and worked.
1. Go the the ground immediately adjacent to the ff table
2. Step on the bumper tab to raise one end slightly.
I don't know why they worked.
I would keep at it and not give up.
I had a pointer that I gave up on. Another trainer got it done by working at it three times a day.
Hope this helps.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Ive only forced five dogs. However, I did have to deal with one that refused "going to the ground". Tilting it up with my foot, more pressure, holding it up slightly with the rope, placing it on steps that progressively got closer to the ground only fed my frustrations. 

Then I got a bit silly and started trying to trick him into picking one up. I'd put my hand on it and lift a bit. This progressed until all I needed to do was hold one finger on it. The sessions turned into a game for me. I'm not sure if my game face, attitude change helped (or not). 

But one morning i went to touch the bumper and he went for it. I faked him out by pulling my hand away and never touched it. Job done. Things went well after that morning. He just could not make the connection with "no hands on fetch". 

In retrospect, some dogs REALLY get obsessed with physical cues. Body motions can often be powerful cues for an action to follow and without that cue.....nothing. Having your hand on the bumper (or not) could make a huge difference in the expectation. For most....not so much. 

A simple test for this would be to have the bumper hanging in front of the dog and do a "no hands on hanging bumper (not on the ground....yet) forced fetch". 

"Outside the box" regards, Jim


----------



## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

Ff a lot of Chesapeake from 4 months old up to 6 years old. They are no different than any of the other breeds. Some take the ear pinch personally and some pay no never mind. but fetching off the ground sometimes can be probablymatic. when this happens I go back to the table with the toe hitch and it usually solves the problem. Than I again go to the ear pinch so he understands. Then out to walking fetch with the ear pinch when he doesn't pick it up when commanded. Three or four pinches is usually all it takes. I have also Cc some before starting Ff so I can reinforce the fetch command while he is still on the table so walking fetch becomes easier but it all depends on what the dog needs. I read all the time about people taking a month or two to ff a dog and I thinks that isn't doing justice for the dog. I also ff three times a day as I don't want the dog to have to go thru this for a month.
I worked for a pro for a year and a half who wouldn't let me Ff his field trial dogs. One day he asked if I would help him with a black that wouldn't pick it up off the ground. He didn't like table so we took thee dog to my house loaded on the table and 5 minute with the toe hits was all it took. Went back the where he was working a the dog and the dog instantly picked up the bumpers. I have never had to give up on a dog yet and never will. Just finished up with three and working on the forth and another to come next week. BTW Chesapeakes are my breed of choice. Can you tell?
Clay


----------



## Rocketcityretrievers (Apr 10, 2014)

I've had some it take 2-3 months if I'm seeing progress I will continue. I always add in the e collar in FF, I noticed you left that out, just my preference. If I see a refusal from the dog I always ear pinch to the bumper. I always keep it short and end on a good note. Plenty of praise helps as well


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The average here is 4-6 weeks. Myself, I find the Chessies easier than most.  Maybe because I do a dozen or so a year and kinda like the breed.

Picking up off the ground is a big transition, but I try to make it a little smaller. First, the dog has to be *diving* the length of the table to pick up a bumper on the table. Then I will transition to the ground at the end of that session, right next to and in line with the table, and do a quick run-through of fetch from my hand and gradually down to the ground. I try to make is as similar to what we just did on the table as I can.


----------



## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

i didnt know what it was but have been looking up words people use here a lto. I like you tube too but first time looking at dog training. usually funies videos. 

i found onn video trainer closer to home do you use this prgram? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5P5y87U6mA&list=UU86YHAarp0_oeqpWVszQYEg


----------



## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

A 3 year old male english setter , 3 months and 6 days , but who's counting LOL, I tried to give up multiple times, but wow is that dog stylish now!


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I used to use a table but like you I had several that going to the ground blew their mind. Now I start on the ground on my knees so there is no transition. sometimes standing up will blow their mind kinda like going to the ground from the table but not much. I will put a pup that moves around to much on the table during hold to get them to focus on the job and not squirming and trying to escape but that usually only takes a day or two then we are back on the ground. With the dog you are working I'd start from hold on the ground and go thru it again. It shouldn't take long as he already knows the drill.


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

labman63 said:


> I used to use a table but like you I had several that going to the ground blew their mind. Now I start on the ground on my knees so there is no transition. sometimes standing up will blow their mind kinda like going to the ground from the table but not much. I will put a pup that moves around to much on the table during hold to get them to focus on the job and not squirming and trying to escape but that usually only takes a day or two then we are back on the ground. With the dog you are working I'd start from hold on the ground and go thru it again. It shouldn't take long as he already knows the drill.


You can stake them with a very very short lead to gain control too vice placing on a table.


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Interesting-to read yet another FF discussion.

When Hillmann did his Fetch DVD, I said, "don't expect a lot of mainstream trainers to change what they always have done!" This thread shows that. This is despite that in Hillmann's method the fetch off the ground becomes the easiest thing in the world (and yet often the biggest hurdle in typical FF). The other huge benefit is that there is no hell month-the dog always has a good attitude and yet when done is just as thoroughly fetched as in traditional methods, No tables, No pinching, no toe-hitches, no restrain, no gimmicks, no frustration, no timetable. I also found when done that my dogs understand the pressure and the correction if required at a higher level than the teaching and reinforcement phase uses.

People starting their first dog should definitely have a look at it because a lot of dogs get messed up with FF for awhile.

PS. I don't include force to pile as part of the FF step but of course I do that later.

PPS. Here's a question, once your dog is thru Basics and into transition level how often do you ever pinch an ear as opposed to fetch, nick with the e-collar? I would want to say "never" but I know better than to use that word!


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

As for your question I would say "almost" never.


RetrieversONLINE said:


> Interesting-to read yet another FF discussion.
> 
> When Hillmann did his Fetch DVD, I said, "don't expect a lot of mainstream trainers to change what they always have done!" This thread shows that. This is despite that in Hillmann's method the fetch off the ground becomes the easiest thing in the world (and yet often the biggest hurdle in typical FF). The other huge benefit is that there is no hell month-the dog always has a good attitude and yet when done is just as thoroughly fetched as in traditional methods, No tables, No pinching, no toe-hitches, no restrain, no gimmicks, no frustration, no timetable. I also found when done that my dogs understand the pressure and the correction if required at a higher level than the teaching and reinforcement phase uses.
> 
> ...


----------



## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

T.Bond said:


> i didnt know what it was but have been looking up words people use here a lto. I like you tube too but first time looking at dog training. usually funies videos.
> 
> i found onn video trainer closer to home do you use this prgram? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5P5y87U6mA&list=UU86YHAarp0_oeqpWVszQYEg


i saw the next video and picking the weight off the groud then bumpers. Some say it takes 3 months but, if the dog is trying it alot on the truck bed is this the same as a table? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87o8tfCtURg&index=20&list=UU86YHAarp0_oeqpWVszQYEg


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I had the chance to spend quite a bit of time talking with Bill Hillmann about his FF program last summer. We also discussed at length the dogs that have no desire to retrieve and if there was a way to make it work. For some dogs...mostly some pointing breeds that don't want to retrieve at all...there isn't enough motivation in the dog to get it going,so there is still a place...at least for now...for the old way. I do use Hillmann and would definitely prefer it, since it is way easier on both dogs and people. However, in my line of work, I also get dogs that have zero desire to retrieve and don't want anything in their mouths. So I've done a juggling act of sorts between the two methods...old and new...as needed, based on the dog in front of me at the time. I much prefer the Hillmann method. Although I've got to add that using the table and old method, there is no "hell month" here either.


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Sharon and others!

Do you think a dog that truly has zero desire to retrieve should be forced to retrieve and subjected to Force Fetch methods?Sharon and others!

In Hillmann's latest starting a puppy DVD which I watched last night (and which is oriented at more than retrievers), it's hard to believe you couldn't get most gun dog breeds to play with toys as he illustrates-which then translate into chase.

Heck there is a video on You Tube of a DUCK making excellent retrieves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCU3W8RGQ_M&sns=em


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Question for the pro's. Is the Hillman method of FF as expedient (for lack of a better word) as using the tradtional methods of FF when you have a kennel full of 12 dogs to be forced? What about for older dogs that are sent to you, is it as effective on older dogs?


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

freezeland said:


> Question for the pro's. Is the Hillman method of FF as expedient (for lack of a better word) as using the tradtional methods of FF when you have a kennel full of 12 dogs to be forced? What about for older dogs that are sent to you, is it as effective on older dogs?


Those are good questions but I know of no mainstream young dog trainer who FFs a lot of dogs that uses this method or has even explored it except casually. However, if you go back 30 years Jim Dobbs method of adding on the e-collar is quite similar in some respects.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Some of the new/old FF techniques are just ones with a spin on them from bygone days of old. Has anyone FF any of the working breeds ie; G.S. ,Rotts, Dobes, etc. if you want to learn how to FF a dog? LOL . New mousetraps vrs old mousetraps..I think one , after they get some experience, (the key) can sort through things, develop an old mouse trap that works for them. As Some advocate, including Mike Lardy, FF is the foundation of the entire collar program along with basics in retriever training will follow the dog for it's entire career . I think most Carr based programs with various twists are on the same page in my opinion. The other breeds that have a lot less genetic talent bred out or into them I think it might be whatever works for you. Just an old sentry, guard, police service and obedience trainer's opinion, with a smattering of retriever FF over the years. No total expert just an observation.


----------



## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

freezeland said:


> Question for the pro's. Is the Hillman method of FF as expedient (for lack of a better word) as using the tradtional methods of FF when you have a kennel full of 12 dogs to be forced? What about for older dogs that are sent to you, is it as effective on older dogs?


That would be somewhat tough to answer, as with all things "Hillmann", "fetch" is a skill that (ideally) is seamlessly inserted into the daily life of the pup being trained. I personally believe that (on average), a young "Hillmann" trained pup will be considerably further along, more advanced and certainly more balanced than a more "traditionally" trained pup of the same age. Bill's way of training really excels with the person who has the time and desire to put their "all" into a pup, as it isn't designed around the schedule of a typical Pro with a truckload of dogs to train daily. 

So in that sense, yes I believe it IS more expedient, IF it is part of the dogs life at an early age, and the person is providing a constant flow of training to the dog. Would it work as part of a traditional Pro's regimen? I think it would certainly soften the process, if the Pro was willing to "teach" the command in the way that Bill does. If that was followed up with the traditional ear pinching, I couldn't help but think, the dog may respond better/faster, already having at least some idea of what to do when commanded to "fetch".


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Sharon and others!
> 
> Do you think a dog that truly has zero desire to retrieve should be forced to retrieve and subjected to Force Fetch methods? Sharon and others!
> 
> ...


Dennis and all,

That's really an excellent question, and very worthy of discussion. (and I love the duck video!) Where I used to winter in OK, there was a yearling colt pastured in the training field. Without fail, I'd plant a bumper for a blind, and before I could go get a dog to run, that colt would pick up the bumper and run to me with it swinging in his teeth. If I'd toss it, he'd pick it up and play with it.

Back to answer the question at hand with a question: Is traditional FF really *just* about retrieving? Or is it pressure conditioning that teaches a dog to handle training pressure in other areas/concepts? 

I think that if a dog's job requires retrieving, it can and should be taught, using whatever method will work best for the individual. If that means the traditional method, I'm OK with it. Competitive obedience trainers FF dogs all the time so they can move on in competition and there are dogs there who don't have the desire. Some service dogs are also FF'd. 

One thing Bill and I discussed was that a lot of pointing dogs never get the "play with toys"/puppy retrieve opportunities, so the desire is never cultivated or encouraged. The question we got stuck on is "how to change the pointing dog folks way of doing things?" The focus is so strictly on pointing and never, ever touching a bird that the dogs think it isn't allowed. I'm not saying it's right and that's not how I do things. But I see an awful lot of dogs that spend their first year being trained that way. And that's what makes it harder when the dog comes to me for retrieve training. The GSPs, GWPs, Pudelpointers, Brittanies, etc. usually have a great natural desire to retrieve, but a lot of the setters and pointers don't. And I've also seen some retrievers that aren't well bred that really could care less about retrieving.

A story I've told here before that I think is relevant here: 
There was a very well known pointing dog trainer named Clyde Morton. He won the National Championship at Ames Plantation 11 times, a record that will likely stand forever. These dogs are big running, horseback field trial dogs that have to run hard and stylish for three hours, finishing just as strong as they start. They have to be rock solid steady to wing and shot....but only blanks are used, and no birds are killed....no retrieving is ever required.

Clyde Morton FF'd all of his dogs, even though they never had to retrieve. Every single one of them. Why? He said it made them "his". It's said...and I wish I could have seen it....that he could handle his dogs through a sheep panel at half a mile from horseback, just by body language.
You don't get the kind of class and style in numerous dogs that win 11 National Championships by hurting a dog or making them hate you or the training.

Should he have FF'd his dogs? Most of the dogs that I've taken through the traditional program come out pretty happy and enjoy retrieving, even if they had no real desire when we started. I always try to start by encouraging the play and fun, but some dogs just don't care to.

That said, I much prefer a dog that is born with a desire to retrieve and has been encouraged. I'd rather not have to do FF the traditional way, but I'm comfortable doing it if that's what is needed. And I'm pretty low-key and low pressure about it. No shrieking torture table here.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

The "old school" method of the past was bypassing the ear pinch and teaching only the "hold it" command from puppyhood to adulthood...Had several field trial retrievers that were trained , using the what I call the hold it method, along with using the command "back" on everything marks and blinds. It isn't any new revelation, just more thought , techniques , put into the program, with better breeding practices with smarter more sensitive dogs going light with the collar. Like Dennis indicated Jim Dobbs had a similar program in part with light use of the collar. When you only have one dog,have the patience to work the dog consistently on a daily basis, and depending what your end goals are, it is just another twist for training .


----------



## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Sharon and others!
> 
> Do you think a dog that truly has zero desire to retrieve should be forced to retrieve and subjected to Force Fetch methods?Sharon and others!
> 
> ...


duck dont have ears haha. how do you pinch it?


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Interesting-to read yet another FF discussion.
> 
> When Hillmann did his Fetch DVD, I said, "don't expect a lot of mainstream trainers to change what they always have done!" This thread shows that. This is despite that in Hillmann's method the fetch off the ground becomes the easiest thing in the world (and yet often the biggest hurdle in typical FF). The other huge benefit is that there is no hell month-the dog always has a good attitude and yet when done is just as thoroughly fetched as in traditional methods, No tables, No pinching, no toe-hitches, no restrain, no gimmicks, no frustration, no timetable. I also found when done that my dogs understand the pressure and the correction if required at a higher level than the teaching and reinforcement phase uses.
> 
> ...


Only on my second dog with Bill's method (BLF and a CBRM) but LOVE it for all the reasons Dennis stated above  Learning to "turn off pressure" is something that can be done in a number of settings, collar conditioning being the most obvious one. 

Personally I have collar conditioned both the dogs I did with Bill's method for sit, here and basic heeling BEFORE I worked on the fetch command. They already know how to respond to the collar and get it to go away with compliance before I ever ask them to fetch (with pressure). They were also conditioned to the word fetch before I put pressure to it, so they know what the command is... and they know how to turn off pressure from other training... Bringing the two together then seems to work very smoothly.

I've stopped using the term "force" as well. It's just reinforcing the fetch command/behavior with the e-collar in my book. 

I think there are a lot of terms we should all stop using, "force" being the first one...


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

T.Bond said:


> duck dont have ears haha. how do you pinch it?


 Ducks have ears. They are just very small ones.

You'd have to go with a toe hitch.


----------



## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

DarrinGreene said:


> Only on my second dog with Bill's method (BLF and a CBRM) but LOVE it for all the reasons Dennis stated above  Learning to "turn off pressure" is something that can be done in a number of settings, collar conditioning being the most obvious one.
> 
> Personally I have collar conditioned both the dogs I did with Bill's method for sit, here and basic heeling BEFORE I worked on the fetch command. They already know how to respond to the collar and get it to go away with compliance before I ever ask them to fetch (with pressure). They were also conditioned to the word fetch before I put pressure to it, so they know what the command is... and they know how to turn off pressure from other training... Bringing the two together then seems to work very smoothly.
> 
> ...


*
*

So if we take the word "force " out of our training vocab, how would we explain water"force"? Just a question.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hillman's approach seem to be very dog-handler individualistic, conditioning and re-enforcement at a early age, great for a Amateur trainer who has time to do it. Still I'm not sure how a pro who gets dogs at all ages, all backgrounds, all breeds would have the time to incorporate it into a systematic training program, with Owners that have definite time tables and need to see results.

Back to the OP longest dog I ever saw to Fully Force fetch, 1 1/2 yrs. and it was like banging your head against a wall, for a time. Happened to be a Chessie too, this dog came in at 6mts, good breeding, conditioning-consistent training. She was terrible to train until about 2 1/2 years old, but since then has turn into a retrieving machine, fire-breathing monster. STUBBORN perhaps, the dog was just a little Strange; for a time we were wondering if there was really a brain in there. So why not give up? Because You could always tell there was talent under the surface, and every once in awhile the dog would do something brilliant. Some dogs need age, some dogs need to move on to other things and then go back to completely proof basics, some dogs need to go back and forth several times. I've seen a couple of Strange dogs like this, usually impeccable breeding; you can tell there's something in there, but heck if you can get it to come out consistently. Most seem to come around with time. There's been quite a few dogs that have been sold as wash-outs that owners sorrily regret selling a few years later.


----------



## Moose Mtn (May 23, 2013)

Interesting statement aout the pointer training using GG to make them "His" 

My Husband, Brian did Force Fetch (Using Lardy as well as help from others) - This pup was my boy... worshiped me, Cuddled with me, i was the center of his world... and I didnt want to be the bad guy who Force Fetched him.... So Hubby did it.

Since FF, the pup could care less about me.. The sun now rises and sets with Hubby... Gotta be with Brian, gotta make brian happy, Snuggles up to Brian... Im out of his inner circle.


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Back to the OP longest dog I ever saw to Fully Force fetch, 1 1/2 yrs. and it was like banging your head against a wall, for a time. Happened to be a Chessie too, this dog came in at 6mts, good breeding, conditioning-consistent training. She was terrible to train until about 2 1/2 years old, but since then has turn into a retrieving machine, fire-breathing monster. STUBBORN perhaps, the dog was just a little Strange; for a time we were wondering if there was really a brain in there. So why not give up? Because You could always tell there was talent under the surface, and every once in awhile the dog would do something brilliant. Some dogs need age, some dogs need to move on to other things and then go back to completely proof basics, some dogs need to go back and forth several times. I've seen a couple of Strange dogs like this, usually impeccable breeding; you can tell there's something in there, but heck if you can get it to come out consistently. Most seem to come around with time. There's been quite a few dogs that have been sold as wash-outs that owners sorrily regret selling a few years later.


You just described my current project to a T. He is only 8 months old though and I have a long road ahead with him. Most hard headed stubborn dog I have *ever* owned, all breeds included. I do have great expectations for him though, and someday I hope they materialize LOL. I know its in there somewhere. Has a great pedigree all the way back as far as one wants to look. He is sired by Grady and is a Cosmo grandson on the dam's side.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks Jennifer, that post made my day.


----------



## Rocketcityretrievers (Apr 10, 2014)

Hunt em up very nicely said. If one has the time to train using the hillman method it works great. Unfortunately, time constraints limit me using his method.


----------



## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Hillmann's method is so efficient, that I can't conceive of the reasons why time constraints could prevent using it. I wonder if anyone that has mastered Hillmann's style (or even a high degree of Hillmann competency) agrees with Rocket City and Hunt em up?

Jim


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

T-Pines said:


> Hillmann's method is so efficient, that I can't conceive of the reasons why time constraints could prevent using it. I wonder if anyone that has mastered Hillmann's style (or even a high degree of Hillmann competency) agrees with Rocket City and Hunt em up?
> 
> Jim


I'm not familiar with Hillmans methods, but seems to me from everyones posts about it that it is geared to a amateur rather than a pro that has a truck load of dogs to train.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

The last few posts have peaked my interest. I am training a pup with Hillmann's program, retired, an "amateur" and would appreciate some perspective. 

How much time (on the average) would a pro (when fully booked) spend per day *actually training* a pup? and how many days per week? This should be a pro that is training young dogs and not necessarily running events every weekend.


----------



## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

freezeland said:


> I'm not familiar with Hillmans methods,
> but seems to me from everyones posts about it that it is geared to a amatuer
> rather than a pro that has a truck load of dogs to train.


Yea, but if those people haven't learned Hillmann's Method,(As they have the method they are using now)
their opinion wouldn't carry much weight on it's effectiveness or efficiency though.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

In the Hillman puppy videos, the pups are being trained from ages 12 to 26 weeks. They are being trained just a few minutes per day. 

Very few pros take on pups that young. Those that do I expect are spending more than a few minutes per day with the pupsters.

Therefore, to me, the Hillman method does not sound too time consuming for a pro to use.


----------



## Terry Britton (Jul 3, 2003)

Renee - I don't think it is the minutes per day, but the 6 months to get to a point that most would get to in a month or so using other methods. Pro fees add up as each month goes by, and customers want a good started dog in 3 or 4 months.

I can see where doing a good puppy program can accelerate where a pro can work through a program quicker.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Terry Britton said:


> Renee - I don't think it is the minutes per day, but the 6 months to get to a point that most would get to in a month or so using other methods. Pro fees add up as each month goes by, and customers want a good started dog in 3 or 4 months.


I see your point but 12 to 26 weeks is more like 3 months, not 6 months. 

I did not realize that pros work that fast---you are saying that pros typically teach pup sit, here, heel and fetch, and collar conditioned the pup to sit, here and fetch, as well as the whistle commands, in just one month? I can send my pup to a pro and get all this done in a month?

I thought it was more like 2 or 3 months.


----------



## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> It's said...and I wish I could have seen it....that he could handle his dogs through a sheep panel at half a mile from horseback, *just by body language*.


You mean by bodily influence? I'd like for Mike Gould to read that statement. He'd probably just grin and shake his head. Mike would laugh at the topic too because he doesn't FF anymore either. 

Now I didn't post that to start anything, or to change the focus of this thread. I just thought it was interesting to see Sharon's statement because of the way I've seen threads/posts go about Mr. Gould. I don't care what people do, FF or not, but I do respect various trainers for what they are capable of teaching dogs and other trainers.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Moose Mtn said:


> Interesting statement aout the pointer training using GG to make them "His"
> 
> My Husband, Brian did Force Fetch (Using Lardy as well as help from others) - This pup was my boy... worshiped me, Cuddled with me, i was the center of his world... and I didnt want to be the bad guy who Force Fetched him.... So Hubby did it.
> 
> Since FF, the pup could care less about me.. The sun now rises and sets with Hubby... Gotta be with Brian, gotta make brian happy, Snuggles up to Brian... Im out of his inner circle.


Mickey you little unfaithful traitor!!!


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Our pups instill trust in us...It is up to us to instill trust to them. Do that, then they become a team with you. Just saying,


----------



## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Only on my second dog with Bill's method (BLF and a CBRM) but LOVE it for all the reasons Dennis stated above  Learning to "turn off pressure" is something that can be done in a number of settings, collar conditioning being the most obvious one.
> 
> Personally I have collar conditioned both the dogs I did with Bill's method for sit, here and basic heeling BEFORE I worked on the fetch command. They already know how to respond to the collar and get it to go away with compliance before I ever ask them to fetch (with pressure). They were also conditioned to the word fetch before I put pressure to it, so they know what the command is... and they know how to turn off pressure from other training... Bringing the two together then seems to work very smoothly.
> 
> ...


Hi, if you don't mind to help me understand, what do you consider is Bill's method? In my mind as someone who is inexperienced, his method is what is in the video step by step. In a previous post by Criquetpas, it mentions something to the effect of it being a new take on something old possible due to new technology and sensitive dogs. Let's say someone had a dog that is tough like in the days of old. Does it work on a tougher dog?


----------



## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

DL,

FYI, I disagree with Darrin's comment "learning to turn off pressure" in the context of Hillmann's philosophy and methods.

If you want a sound bite that describes Hillmann's method, it may be something like "teaching AND CONDITIONING a dog how to BE in the midst of high excitement without punishment and corrections ... instead using a progressive system of reinforced success."

Pressure is not a centerpiece element of Hilmann's system. Collar stimulus is in the form of very light 'nicks' and is presented to the process in a very specific way as positive reinforcement. The ecollar is conditioned as a secondary reinforcer, also known as a conditioned reinforcer. The primary reinforcer associated with the collar is excitement, often paired with praise, touch and access to the chase or the retrieve. This has nothing to do with escape/avoidance training that is the cornerstone of traditional ecollar conditioning programs.

Hillmann's method is very effective for dogs of any temperament.

If Earl equates this to something old, I'd be interested in hearing specific comparisons in terms of philosophy and technique.

Jim


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

T-Pines said:


> DL,
> 
> FYI, I disagree with Darrin's comment "learning to turn off pressure" in the context of Hillmann's philosophy and methods.
> 
> ...


Nothing in the new methods are original. What is going on are the intellectual terms breaking down, piece by piece, with the advent of the e-collar to a understandable process. Mike Lardy and I personally told him this when his first DVD came out, raised it all to a understandable level, with process of basic , transition and advanced training..I told Mike at the time that many would be training their own dogs , taking away from the pro business of dog training. He responded by saying, direct quote to me ," but is good for the sport!" I have a myriad of notes from Rex Carr that basically saying the same thing, but, there were a lack of names on various drills and as he indicated, his clients started to place names on the various components . Without digressing too much, in the "olden days" when a dog would give you a no go, one would strap the dog telling the dog, back , back, doesn't make sense I suppose, but in hindsight was a form of indirect pressure. The e-collar was primarily used as a punishment, direct burns were common, dog cheats water, dog gets burned, hot spot is created on the cold burn. In what would be considered pre-basics today (puppy training) the hold would be started immediately, some would bypass the fetch it command entirely, just go with hold and would transfer eventually , with strong retrieving desire to the advanced work. Some dogs had a stronger retrieving desire then others. Along came some folks who started to intellectualize the e-collar, Jim Dobbs had an entire book and a DVD dedicated to low level electricity. In fact have incorporated into my swim-by. Corner drills, dog cheats around a corner, dog gets a continuous very low level burn. Dummy is thrown back in water, water good, dog is rerun, shorebreaking 101, etc. I had the experience to be creative, stealing a small portion of Dobb's methods. What Bill Hillman has done, he has intellectualized it even farther , taking Mary and his vast experience, success with young dogs, on a building block of sorts and put the gentle approach of using low level nicks/burns etc. I have trained with some very successful folks who have done it with some commands on 4 month old puppies. As Mike told me "it is good for the sport" all of it. Now folks have become program oriented, vast amounts of information is available to those who want to train their retrievers. I learned from mentors in the game. Hook up with a old timer and learn as you go, no DVD's no written material that amounted to much other then gundog training. Today it is a very sophisticated game , Field Trials and Hunt tests, and if a person has a good dog, ready access to some kind of program,can be very successful, but, it isn't all original , just excellent , experienced dog trainers who have intellectualized the training in my opinion. You learn every day and after five decades of training dogs, still am searching for excellence! That's what it is all about.


----------



## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

T-Pines said:


> DL,
> 
> FYI, I disagree with Darrin's comment "learning to turn off pressure" in the context of Hillmann's philosophy and methods.
> 
> ...


Thanks, as a side note, I have some Dobb tapes that are still on the market and they don't resemble what is in the Hillman DVDs to me. After doing some traditional work with my puppy the lowest level I think he notices is a 3 medium on the new Garmin 550 which feels the same to me as my Tri-tronics G2 500 at the lower levels. It's all good.


----------



## Moose Mtn (May 23, 2013)

mjh345 said:


> Mickey you little unfaithful traitor!!!



You are NOT kidding there Marc! I didnt mind the early stages of FF that you helped us through, But Brian has really comitted the time needed to get Mickey thru this! I think it has been really good for both of them, as Brian is reading the dogs WAY better from going thru this himself (rather than sending the dog off) That alone has been such a good outcome from this!


----------



## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl,

I'd like to buy you and Chris dinner and talk about this some more. We live relatively close ... you have an open invitation.

Jim


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

T-Pines said:


> Earl,
> 
> I'd like to buy you and Chris dinner and talk about this some more. We live relatively close ... you have an open invitation.
> 
> Jim


Send me a PM...Chris doing a lot of OT now. Thanks for the invite,


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I admit to not knowing much about any particular method, I'm of the learn as you go, get help when needed set. My comments on the Hillman's is just what I have gleaned from this thread that it seems to focus on early constant training and early development of innate instincts in little sessions, from the time you get a young pup. My comments on it perhaps not working for Pros, is that at minimum a young dog will come to a pro @ 6 months, with little to NO formal training, and then be expected to be returned as a Started Dog, FF, CC, marking (ready for JH, ready to hunt) with 3-4 months of training. This is best case many dogs come in at much older ages, with different ghosts that need to exorcized in that same 3-4 month time period. Add to that a pro is dealing with a bunch of dogs in different training stages at the same time and running-competing other dogs. This leaves little time for individualized sessions, and most go to tried true, works for vast majority of dogs and gets it done in a predictable time table, regiments. Nothing against the Program I'm sure it works, just not sure it's best suited to a high output operation.

I once asked a Pro about losing business and the effect of Do it yourself DVDs-programs over the years. He basically said it's good for people to try and train their own dog, it opens up a larger world for most who have no clue what a trained retriever can actually do. Once they know what can be done, now they want a dog that can do those things. Still dog training & reading dogs is an art, not everything is covered in any program, and things go wrong for many trainers-dogs, along the Journey. Thus He as a Pro gets A LOT of business fixing things that are not covered with individual dogs and pre-recorded programs. Programs are good for the sport, result in better trained dogs and they don't hurt the Pros, might even help them more than anything else. Win-Win for everyone .


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

T-Pines said:


> DL,
> 
> FYI, I disagree with Darrin's comment "learning to turn off pressure" in the context of Hillmann's philosophy and methods.
> 
> Jim


Jim, my statement about "turn off pressure" isn't really relater to Hillman. I don't really see Bill doing that in any of the material I've seen. He may since I haven't seen it all but it is not something I have noticed. That concept is from the more traditional systems, as I'm sure you know.

I teach my dogs to "turn off" low level collar pressure (no yelping or anything) as an add on to Bill's stuff.


----------



## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Darrin,

Your entire post #29 sounds like negative reinforcement. Light collar, yes, but negative reinforcement nonetheless. This, of course, is not how Hillmann conditions the ecollar. His conditioning the ecollar as positive reinforcement is a "night and day" difference from the negative reinforcement you are talking about.

My take is that you are teaching the command, "fetch", in a way that might be influenced by Hillmann, perhaps using some of the Traffic Cop technique. However, it seems that you are not using Hillmann's ecollar reinforcement approach. Would you agree?

If so, fine. But I think enormous value lies in Bill's ecollar reinforcement difference. The difference is practically unnoticeable to an observer that is not keenly aware of Hillmann's approach. The Hillmann method conditions a dog to perform better when excitement escalates. I don't see how this relationship can be achieved if the dog is conditioned via avoidance. I'd be interested to hear how your dogs perform in maximum environmental excitement as you progress with your method, especially in advanced, complex work afield. 

Jim


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

T-Pines said:


> Darrin,
> 
> Your entire post #29 sounds like negative reinforcement. Light collar, yes, but negative reinforcement nonetheless. This, of course, is not how Hillmann conditions the ecollar. His conditioning the ecollar as positive reinforcement is a "night and day" difference from the negative reinforcement you are talking about.
> 
> Jim


I'm really wrestling with this exact issue every time I look at Bill's most recent series of videos about the e-collar as positive reinforcement Jim. 

I get that with the dog already doing a behavior (sitting) Bill is ADDING (positive) stimulus (check cord/e-collar) to INCREASE (reinforce) behavior (sitting, for example). 

Technically then, by the stark definition, Bill is, in fact using the collar for "positive reinforcement" during the conditioning process. I get that part but...

Inherent within most people's definition of "positive reinforcement" is the idea that whatever stimulus is added to the process is rewarding to the dog. I don't see how the e-collar can do that regardless of the level used. I can see how it can be used as a bridge to a reward, but I can't process how it can actually be the reward itself. 

I love everything I've ever seen from Bill and use quite a bit of it throughout training. I just can't get my head wrapped around it being anything revolutionary or different than what's been done in the past by a lot of people (maybe not Carr). 

As was mentioned by Earl (I think), people who have been around this stuff for decades (I'm approaching 1) don't see it as anything terribly different except that is presented differently and is a much more "dog friendly" approach. 

I think part of the problem is in the reading vs. the real application by accomplished people with regard to the Carr based program also. I worked with a ton of very accomplished trainers for a couple of years in the bomb dog program. This wasn't just one pro who I was paying. It was multiple people who had produced literally hundreds of FC dogs in their careers. The one common theme (and this will sound familiar) in e-collar usage with ALL of these people was that the dog needed to be in drive (excitement in Bill's vernacular) and that you used the intensity you needed to get a behavior change and ONLY what you needed (Bill's approach). 

I believe a lot of people look at the Carr based stuff and believe it involves a ton of pressure when, if you're good at reading a dog and working through the process patiently, it doesn't require a whole lot of pain on the dog's part. It also produces just as strong a bond and relationship as what Bill does.

To answer your question directly about my personal methods, I use a combination of things from a lot of places, a lot of good trainers and even some not so accomplished ones that had a good idea. 

Post 29 sounds like "low level negative reinforcement" because it is exactly that. I do it in combination with Bill's methods on fetch and a bunch of other commands bu I am not nicking a dog that's already sitting and trying to call it positive. 

Unfortunately I can't and won't ever be a high level FT competitor. I'm not interested in trying to exceed anyone else's success to prove my method works. I know it works because I use it on 10 dogs a month. I just don't have time for field work these days because there are 20 pets a week that need my attention at this point. My personal guys may get to do some MH work, if I can find the time. Until I get to a certain point in the business I will be training pets for people full time and won't be able to accomplish much in the field.

I guess all I was trying to show in post 29 was that... Using Bill's outline/process and incorporating his methods doesn't preclude people from "making the dog their own" or "making FF about more than fetching" or "Teaching the dog to turn off pressure". All of that is either achieved in Bill's process or can be added on in other areas of training without fallout.

I hope more people will look at Bill's stuff. I feel it is a great addition to what most people (other than pros) are doing.


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

T-Pines said:


> Darrin,
> 
> Your entire post #29 sounds like negative reinforcement. Light collar, yes, but negative reinforcement nonetheless. This, of course, is not how Hillmann conditions the ecollar. His conditioning the ecollar as positive reinforcement is a "night and day" difference from the negative reinforcement you are talking about.
> 
> ...


Jim and Darrin

To add to Darrin's response, a few points:


First: Distinguishing positive and negative is not nearly so simple to do as a search of research will show. The difference are not HUGE and the subject is controversial in the literature. The key in both is whether they increase a behavior.


Second: A big misconception is that positive reinforcement adds a reward and negative reinforcement takes away an aversive. This is not true! Positive reinforcement adds a stimulus and negative removes a stimulus. It doesn't matter whether the stimulus is a cookie, clicker, a low level nick or a high level nick!!!


Third: In dog training, some give a command, apply an aversive and when the dog sits then the e-collar is stopped(the pressure is turned off). This is the how the classic escape and then eventually avoidance response develops. it is negative reinforcement. However, if you give a sit whistle and a momentary nick (so called Indirect Pressure) even at a high level, is that positive or negative reinforcement? If the behavior of sitting increases or the dog starts to make a better decision about not cheating it increases behavior and for the dog the negative is taken away-by definition this is negative reinforcement. However, as you know often when you stop a behavior (cheating) another behavior is increased (not cheating). So some have argued this is punishment leading to reinforcement. This is not simple!!

Fourth: The dog is sitting. You add a stimulus-"good", "click", nick", "burn" whatever. Dog sitting behavior increases in future. It can all be labeled Positive reinforcement. This is why Hillmann promoting positive reinforcement with an e-collar is not revolutionary. His adherence to low levels is the non-traditional feature but a serious nick is the same principle.

Fifth: What about the excitement carry over and reliability?. The top trainers achieve great reliability in good behaviours when the dogs are in an extremely excited frame of mind and they use high levels of e-collar at times and also negative reinforcement and punishment. They have the dog in an excited frame of mind which is the key!! The jury is still out that positive reinforcement with a low level and excitement as the reward (Hillmann) is superior to some other methods with high-powered dogs who are prone to become trial-wise.

Finally, it is really hard to tell what each person is really doing in training from reading the Internet accounts. Darrin may be using avoidance training or not, I am not sure. If his dog is sitting and he gives a high nick preceded by a "sit" and the nick has been developed as a secondary reinforce, is he using positive reinforcement less so than Hillmann? Again, hard to say but the dogs often don't think so! 

Bill's teaching and approach have shown a way to condition good behaviours with very low levels of stimulus. Theoretically, his method would be just as effective with an e-collar on vibrate or buzz mode but that is yet to be demonstrated in field applications. His method applies to all types of dogs but other methods wisely used also do-Witness Lardy's refinement and success in the 90's with sensitive dogs and the e-collar. I have a feeling that newbies might have lower risk of mistakes using Hillmann but

*Hillmann also requires reading your dog and good timing and good balance especially. Those can be harder to get achieve than dialing from 5 to 2.
*
So I still don't know how newbies will do especially as they advance to higher levels. As far as I know, I have the only FTCH that was trained a la Hillmann as a puppy using his DVDs and not his personal tutelage. I think his teachings have been excellent for the sport and to add perspectives on better ways to train dogs. The so-called "natural horsemanship" revolution took a long-time to move into the competition arena but it's impact has spread through-out much of the horse world. Hillmann's educational work will help improve retriever training at all levels just as Carr did and later Lardy refined and now many others are!! 

*IT's ALL GOOD!*


----------



## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

^^^^^that's why I keep coming here ..... 


Didn't even have to pay for it


----------



## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Dustin D said:


> ^^^^^that's why I keep coming here .....
> 
> 
> Didn't even have to pay for it


Agree and would only add Thank You to all experienced trainers on rtf who have contributed to this educational thread. Btw - I'm following Hillmann's program this time around with my Kerrybrook pup. So far so good!


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thank you for your ever valuable input dennis!


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pressure is not a centerpiece element of Hilmann's system. Collar stimulus is in the form of very light 'nicks' and is presented to the process in a very specific way as positive reinforcement. The ecollar is conditioned as a secondary reinforcer, also known as a conditioned reinforcer. The primary reinforcer associated with the collar is excitement, often paired with praise, touch and access to the chase or the retrieve. This has nothing to do with escape/avoidance training that is the cornerstone of traditional ecollar conditioning programs.


 I remember a few years back people would be freaking out and calling ole Packleader or Hansen a know nothing because he didn't train by recognized retriever methods. Sounds like jamie or Fred get to giggle a little now. 
tap tap tap regards

Times are a changin
Pete


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

and Bart Bellon be damned we're all behind the times


----------



## Indo (Jun 4, 2014)

T.Bond said:


> i didnt know what it was but have been looking up words people use here a lto. I like you tube too but first time looking at dog training. usually funies videos.
> 
> i found onn video trainer closer to home do you use this prgram? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5P5y87U6mA&list=UU86YHAarp0_oeqpWVszQYEg


I have found with my pup the transition to the buck was much easier with starting on the glove hold. She fought mightily on the glove for the first 4 sessions but started to understand that when she would stop fighting I would release it from her mouth. When I started on the buck she fought a bit so I commanded no, Hold, and she has held perfectly since.


----------

