# Soft, Sensitive and Sensible (Parts One and Two)



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

A while back, there was a thread on soft dogs and a few people asked me to comment because they knew I had written on the topic. One of the articles I wrote in 2007 was called, Sorting out sensitivity, softness, sensitivity, smartness and similar traits. It discussed each and also how they can combine for good or not. I present it here in its entirety for those interested. I wouldn’t change much 5 years later.


Incidentally, I was recently reading Rex Carr notes where he listed the MOST desirable traits in a dog. They were Intelligence(smartness), temperament (sensibility) and desire. Interesting that marking not listed!!

Retrievers ONLINE – Training Tips​ 
*SORTING OUT SENSITIVITY, SOFTNESS, SENSIBILITY, SMARTNESS & SIMILAR TRAITS*​ 
_by Dennis R. Voigt_​ 
Hang around retriever trial tailgates or galleries much and it won’t belong before you’ll hear somebody talking about dogs that are too soft, too sensitive, too smart or too crazy. It seems we’re all pretty quick to label a dog as being too extreme in some trait. Often, this condemnation of a dog or even a line of dogs fails to take into account weaknesses in training programs and how the training was conducted. Rarely do we hear, I don’t know how to train a dog that is this soft or this sensitive or this “smart”. Explore these discussions further and you’ll soon find that different folks have very different meanings for the same words. Part of this is the frailty of the English language but a big part is that we’ve seldom thought about these traits except in a casual and human perspective way.

All dogs have degrees of sensitivity, softness, sensibility and smartness. Thus, it’s not the trait itself that is good or bad but the degree the trait displays itself as the dog is trained. As suggested above, HOW the dog is trained plays a big role in whether the trait becomes a negative that limits a dog’s eventual performance. In addition, other traits can modify the importance of any particular trait. For example, high desire for birds and retrieving has a huge impact on the dog’s potential when coupled with softness or sensitivity. The combination of traits in a particular dog is critical. For example a dog with high sensitivity, high softness and little desire is a very different package than the dog that is insensitive, tough and high desire. Perhaps neither will make good candidates for a top-level performer in the field. Perhaps both can achieve much if their trainer recognizes their true nature and can tailor a program to their needs.

One thing that would help immeasurably with our discussion of these traits is some common understanding of these terms. Unfortunately, there is no official terminology here although a few trainers have attempted to explain some of these terms. For example Mike Lardy wrote an article in the Retriever Journal on “Sensitive” dogs wherein he defined “sensitive”. Various dog training forums have recently tackled the subject also and there was a trend towards some consensus although never 100% (like almost ALL Internet forum threads!) Let’s tackle a few of these terms and discuss combinations.

*Sensitivity* is a description of how responsive some animal is to a stimulus. While we can think about being cold sensitive (Fiona wants the heat up; I want the window open!), sensitive is most often applied to mental or psychological reactions. When we generally talk about sensitive people or dogs we are usually thinking about how mentally sensitive they are. Remember that everybody has some degree of sensitivity and the trait of sensitivity itself is not bad. The challenge may arise when a dog is overly sensitive when confronted with situations. Over-sensitivity inhibits learning or performance. Thought of in this way, the definition of Lardy is compatible when he says “Sensitivity can be thought of as the psychological reaction to pressure. Pressure could be an aversive stimulus such as a loud “No” . . . or a nick from an e-collar (see the entire article at www.totalretriever.com).


*Softness* is often used interchangeably with sensitivity but it has a different connotation to it. For one, it seems to be associated with a particular degree of sensitivity that often has a physical reaction. For example, the dog may totally cave into the stimulus (pressure) and actually quit retrieving or doing anything else. In other cases, the dog will exhibit extreme submissive behaviour such as lying down, belly-up or curling around your leg. Some of this behaviour is “escape behaviour that the dog has learned might stop the pressure. Quite often these dogs take a long time to recover from the pressure incident. As a generality these dogs have lower retrieving desire or perhaps it is that softness is not masked when combined with low desire. I find it helpful to think about softness as the physical response to the situation. A dog who physically quits is soft. A dog that gets cold too easily in the water and refuses to continue is soft.


*Sensibility* is another trait that needs consideration. Sensible dogs have common sense. Invariably, they have a good temperament. While we all know that common sense is not that common (even among humans!), a sensible dog responds to situations and stimuli in a balanced and thoughtful way. Sensibility seems to be linked to retrieving desire in our dogs. A dog over-whelmed with retrieving desire is often not very sensible. A dog that is very sensitive and soft may act only in fear and forget all of his training. Such a response would not appear to us to be very sensible even though to the dog he is just trying to survive. Sensibility in humans often shows intelligence and similarly sensible dogs are often on the higher end of the intelligence scale.


*Smartness* is intelligence which includes the ability to learn and to apply learned things. When not overwhelmed with extremes of sensitivity or desire, intelligent dogs can show very thoughtful decisions. I know trainers who consider high intelligence a negative trait in their retrievers (something about the dogs being too smart for their own good). I am completely contrary in my views. For today’s advanced work I’ll take the intelligent dog every time not only for teaching but for thinking during competition. Sure those dogs will figure out ways to get what they want and present training challenges that the less smart dog wouldn’t dream of, but smartness can never be considered a bad trait in my book.

Each one of the above traits has been linked to “desire” in its discussion. That is no accident since “retrieving desire” is among the most important traits today’s retriever must have. Retrieving desire actually comes in two forms – one is as a measure of the dog’s drive and passion to retrieve or go and fetch an object. It can also be a measure of a dog’s birdiness and desire to retrieve those birds. They don’t necessarily mean the same thing. Witness the tremendous birdiness of some pointers who couldn’t care less about retrieving bumpers. Many retrievers have very high bird retrieving desire but it far outweighs their bumper retrieving desire. Others get just as crazy for bumpers as birds it seems. Retrievers that have very low desire for bumpers and for birds are not candidates for field trials or hunt tests or even as a competent handling dog. Simply find them a good home. Fortunately, almost all of today’s field lines seldom display such dogs. In contrast it is more common to uncover retrievers that are “over the top” in retrieving desire. These dogs present a host of their own problems and can present formidable challenges. When such dogs are packaged with low sensibility, extremes of mental sensitivity or physical softness (and toughness), you may also be confronted with an unsuitable candidate.


With the various definitions above being used to sort out these traits, it is easier to analyze packages of dogs that have the greatest and least potential. Certain packages can be excellent in the hands of the right trainer. The trick is to realize what you’ve got and how to modify your training to maximize the chance of success. On the other hand do you want to invest 10 years of your life with a “poor” chance of success package? Let’s look at few combinations.
(See Part 2 Below)


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

*Soft, Sensitive and Sensible (Part Two)*

In the table below, I’ve rated the value of each trait in 5 hypothetical dogs. In all cases, the higher the number, the more the dog has the trait. In other words a 10 is extremely sensitive and a 1 is very insensitive.


*Dog A* is middle of the road (5) in everything. This dog may not have enough desire and smartness to be a good competitive dog in trials or hunt tests. However, it might make as superb gun dog for someone training their first dog.


*Dog B* is ranked low (3) in everything. I think this package is best left on the couch. He has low sensitivity, is tough, is not sensible or blessed with smarts. Good candidate to sell as a “pet”.


*Dog C* is ranked high (8) in everything. This is an interesting package. Lots of sensitivity and physically soft. However, very sensible, very smart and high desire. I think this is the kind of dog that readily gets washed out in rigid programs. In contrast, if you can learn to train by considering his sensitivity as well as being cautious about over-exposure to his softness, you may well be able to develop an excellent dog. A challenge for sure, but one I’d tackle!


*Dog D* has varying degrees of the traits. His high sensitivity and softness is coupled with low sensibility and only moderate smarts and desire. This dog is another very poor candidate for competition. He wouldn’t even make as good a gun dog as Dog A.


*Dog E* is a wonderful package. A degree of sensitivity, not very soft, good sensibility and desire and super smart. Should be a good dog to train although novices might struggle with the desire level at times. That desire will pay off when mistakes are made but standards will have to be kept high with this dog. 


*Summary*
This article is designed to get you thinking about your dog’s traits and how they combine. The combination will influence how you modify training to get the most from your dog. All dogs have desirable traits to varying degrees. There are many good packages. Try sorting out your dog’s traits with a view to better understanding how to train.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Wow! Thanks so much for sharing your article with RTF!!!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Yes,,,, Thanks Dennis!!!

Angie


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

an excellent article Dennis.
I have a question. 
Of your hypothetical dogs in the chart. Or any hypothetical dog. Do you find them changing evaluation numbers over time? I ask because a dog I took in a couple seasons ago that I often type about. Lets call him Scooby Do, 'cause that is what I call him 
When I took him, at first glance he was just like your dog D, maybe even lower the smarts down to a 2 and desire down to a 3. But after a couple years I would evaluate him now as about like your dog A, maybe the "Smarts" are only up to a 3 now but sensitivity and softness are down and desire is up. He ain't never gonna win an open but I managed to take him from rolling on his back and peeing on himself when you took a duck out, to 2 junior passes, at 7 years old. He is having fun retrieving now. He is not the same dog he was. Does the working environment and attitude of the trainer rub off? Can softness, sensitivity and desire go up and down?
　
.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Good stuff, hope this morphs into how to rate each scale, i.e. Softness of a dog rated @ 2 equates to a dog that can take correction without developing a bad attitude (or something simular if possible).


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Copied ,,,Saved.

Thanks Dennis.

Gooser


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Ken Bora said:


> an excellent article Dennis.
> I have a question.
> Of your hypothetical dogs in the chart. Or any hypothetical dog. Do you find them changing evaluation numbers over time? I ask because a dog I took in a couple seasons ago that I often type about. Lets call him Scooby Do, 'cause that is what I call him
> When I took him, at first glance he was just like your dog D, maybe even lower the smarts down to a 2 and desire down to a 3. But after a couple years I would evaluate him now as about like your dog A, maybe the "Smarts" are only up to a 3 now but sensitivity and softness are down and desire is up. He ain't never gonna win an open but I managed to take him from rolling on his back and peeing on himself when you took a duck out, to 2 junior passes, at 7 years old. He is having fun retrieving now. He is not the same dog he was. Does the working environment and attitude of the trainer rub off? Can softness, sensitivity and desire go up and down?
> ...


Many traits can change from puppyhood to adulthood-or at least their expression and thus appear to change. Plus, a good trainer can learn to get the most out of a low or high score trait. However, I have learned over the years that you cannot change the fundamental nature of a dog, but only learn how to make the best of it.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Byron Musick said:


> Good stuff, hope this morphs into how to rate each scale, i.e. Softness of a dog rated @ 2 equates to a dog that can take correction without developing a bad attitude (or something simular if possible).


I don't believe in a "paint by number" approach to dog correction or even training. Learn to read your dog and believe what he is telling you. The scoring chart is designed to help you identify and think about what you might have so that you can custom train (or evaluate) what you have.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Earlier (in the soft thread) I wrote that the most trainable dog I've owned was the "softest"... I guess by the above, she was the most "sensitive". 

You didn't have to get her attention with a 2X4. On the contrary, an appropriate (very mild) correction made her try harder to do right. She WAS sensible, had plenty of desire, tho was a kinda slow dog physically. (A Harley daughter, Supertanker granddaughter.) Her marking was simply uncanny... Maybe Rex didn't care about that, but I sure like it...

Her (smaller) Mom had VERY high desire (and energy) and took a lot more to get to... lovable, affectionate, but not sensitive and hard as nails if she thought there were birds in it. 

They were both smart and talented, but as different as nite and day to train. I miss them both.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2011)

Very interesting but way over my head! I feel this is more geared toward people that have owned many,many dogs and have something to gauge off of. How would the average "JOE",like me benefit from this knowledge if i don't know what a 1 or a 10 is? I could say my dog is 7's across the board,but i'm sure if you evaluated my dog it would be very different.
I got a long way to go,I guess!
Hoping to learn more about reading a dog properly.
Thanks


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Dennis, excellent read! I'm saving this one....really well done. Thanks!


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

What Sharon said! Thanks!


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## Donna Kerr (May 19, 2003)

Thank you Dennis. That was a great read and really helped explain things to me!

I’m thinking my 2 year old is probably a C rank. You really have to watch corrections, and praise, as it is painfully obvious at times that he is sensitive and soft. He has high desire (will throw dirt to get to a mark) but he has also completely stopped retrieving (to the point that he just sits there) when we returned to an area that he had received a correction at in the past. It took quite a bit of doing (lots of just fun bumpers and I had to get Daddy to come out) and NO corrections to get him over that. He seems to be ok now. He refuses to work for some handlers all together and knows who is standing next to him at all times. He is smart and sensible, very good OB dog and a fantastic house dog. But treat with “Kid Gloves”?....oh my lord YES!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Donna Kerr said:


> Thank you Dennis. That was a great read and really helped explain things to me!
> 
> I’m thinking my 2 year old is probably a C rank. You really have to watch corrections, and praise, as it is painfully obvious at times that he is sensitive and soft. He has high desire (will throw dirt to get to a mark) but he has also completely stopped retrieving (to the point that he just sits there) when we returned to an area that he had received a correction at in the past. It took quite a bit of doing (lots of just fun bumpers and I had to get Daddy to come out) and NO corrections to get him over that. He seems to be ok now. He refuses to work for some handlers all together and knows who is standing next to him at all times. He is smart and sensible, very good OB dog and a fantastic house dog. But treat with “Kid Gloves”?....oh my lord YES!


Maybe you should change your by-line to:

If you have an important point to make, don't try a pile driver- Be subtle or clever!!:razz:


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

rooster said:


> Very interesting but way over my head! I feel this is more geared toward people that have owned many,many dogs and have something to gauge off of. How would the average "JOE",like me benefit from this knowledge if i don't know what a 1 or a 10 is? I could say my dog is 7's across the board,but i'm sure if you evaluated my dog it would be very different.
> I got a long way to go,I guess!
> Hoping to learn more about reading a dog properly.
> Thanks


If you join a training group or weekend train with a Pro, you will see dogs of all types. It might open you eyes to see other talented dogs respond very differently than your's does with the exact same training input. That's when you ask questions and learn more about what makes these wonderful animals tick. For example, when I started training with a guy who had run Chessies his whole life, I was quite surprised to learn that most Chessies are not the insensitive brutes the old stereotype made them out to be, more the opposite actually.

John


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Great article. I wish we could adopt some standard vocabulary words to describe all of these conditions, so maybe this will catch on.

It appears to me that my dog is a little sensitive (a large part of the time a good "No!" is better than any collar correction) but not soft (does not fold under pressure). He also tends toward being over the top with desire to retrieve, whether bumpers or birds. I have been warned to maintain a very high standard with him - walking slowly and deliberately, etc., because he is always about _this close_ to being out of control. All of this info was given to me by his trainer, so trust it more than you would coming from - you guessed it - a rookie.

For those more knowledgeable/experienced folks out there, is it possible to for a dog like this to be fairly sensible and/or smart, but to have those two traits somewhat obscured by the insane desire to retrieve until the dog matures a little? I am trying to get this figured out so I can do right by a dog that gives every indication of being fairly talented but is in the hands of a rookie in the game.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> If you join a training group or weekend train with a Pro, you will see dogs of all types. It might open you eyes to see other talented dogs respond very differently than your's does with the exact same training input. That's when you ask questions and learn more about what makes these wonderful animals tick. For example, when I started training with a guy who had run Chessies his whole life, I was quite surprised to learn that most Chessies are not the insensitive brutes the old stereotype made them out to be, more the opposite actually.
> 
> John


My training group is very small,ALWAYS 2,sometimes 3 or 4. But i do see where you are going with this. Applying my time more wisely at hunt tests, watching other dogs run instead of chit chatting in the parking lot would be a start!


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I don't believe in a "paint by number" approach to dog correction or even training. Learn to read your dog and believe what he is telling you. .


Not so much that, but the thought process in your mind for what an dog with your classification of 2 (or any other number) may have been determined, the perfect dog rated certain values, so some thought must come to mind when the chart was written. Examples of what a 10 would be for sensability and desire compared to the desired 8 in those fields for the optimal dog. Just thinking too much again!

I have two dogs that I would scale at both ends of the spectrum, how much in each direction would be difficult for me to determine.

Great stuff!!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Byron Musick said:


> Not so much that, but the thought process in your mind for what an dog with your classification of 2 (or any other number) may have been determined, the perfect dog rated certain values, so some thought must come to mind when the chart was written. Examples of what a 10 would be for sensability and desire compared to the desired 8 in those fields for the optimal dog. Just thinking too much again!
> 
> I have two dogs that I would scale at both ends of the spectrum, how much in each direction would be difficult for me to determine.
> 
> Great stuff!!


The more experienced you become and the more dogs that you have studied the finer you will be able to classify. Remember it's all relative so don't get hung up on a 5 versus a 7. Perhaps we can achieve a good enough perspective by simply classing the dogs as high, medium, low. I guess in my mind a 10 is about as high as one can go whereas a 1 is rock-bottom.

Try the high. medium, low approach-don't get paralysis from analysis. 

There's nothing wrong with thinking about this, doing a rating, reading your dog-training accordingly and then re-visiting it in 3-6 months. Try that without looking at your old rating first!! It might be very revealing


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Thank you very much for posting, by the way thank you- I have your training retrievers alone and it has helped me so much- I was able to get my dog SH title this last fall - now we are working for her MH title - keep up the good work


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Thanks for posting, Dennis!

I'm hoping Alec, Pete and some of the knowledgeable others that commented in the thread from a couple of weeks ago will comment here, too. I was oscillating back and forth from totally clueless, to thinking I got it, back to clueless again.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

excellent article, thanks much!


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Very good round up of the traits! Wish I'd read it when originally written ;-) or even a few years before. My first dog I would've classified as overly soft, sensitive and a little lacking in "bottom". If I was training Puffin now I'd recognize that she learned quickly how to play me like a drum. Oh well at least I learned and now working with her granddaughter, the learning has come in handy. Granddaughter Panda (in the avatar) is sensitive, and mid range on the soft scale, just off the charts on the drama! Panda's sire I would have classified as too soft and sensitive but as he's matured and gotten good consistent training he's also become much more resilient to corrections and a much better team player. All 3 were fortunately high in the drive dept. which carried them through a lot of my mistakes.


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## Connie Swanson (May 31, 2005)

I have found that many dogs that were labeled by their owners (or others around them) as "too soft" were actually "quite sensitive."

There are many other traits in dogs which affect their "workability," but one which is crucial is "tractibility" or "willingness." A dog can be the perfect combo of the traits in the article, but if he is not interested in working as a team member, you could be in trouble. 

The traits in this thread which are radically affected by tractibility are "softness, sensitivity, and desire." A dog with high desire who does not care that he has a partner standing beside him, could be a cementhead to train.

A dog who is quite soft or sensitive, but is very willing, can be very trainable given the right training methodology.

I apologize for adding another element to the mix, but I think this thread is very valuable for helping trainers find the right path to progress each individual dog. We all hope for the total package of perfect combo of traits; in reality, we usually get a mix, and greatly improve the chance for success if we can tailor the training to the dog.

And yes, I agree with Dennis, I'll take the "smart" dog any day-- and add to that "sagacity" and we're cooking! Oops, another trait for another thread...

Connie


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Connie Swanson said:


> I have found that many dogs that were labeled by their owners (or others around them) as "too soft" were actually "quite sensitive."
> 
> There are many other traits in dogs which affect their "workability," but one which is crucial is "tractibility" or "willingness." A dog can be the perfect combo of the traits in the article, but if he is not interested in working as a team member, you could be in trouble.
> 
> ...


I was wondering about this---their willingness to please. But maybe this is the same thing as retrieving desire? In other words, perhaps they are willing to do the work because they like the work.


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## ssramage (Oct 11, 2011)

Good info. Thanks!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I like long walks on the beach with stimulating intellectual conversation. 



/Paul


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Connie Swanson said:


> I have found that many dogs that were labeled by their owners (or others around them) as "too soft" were actually "quite sensitive."
> 
> There are many other traits in dogs which affect their "workability," but one which is crucial is "tractibility" or "willingness." A dog can be the perfect combo of the traits in the article, but if he is not interested in working as a team member, you could be in trouble.
> 
> ...


Connie

I think you know what a big fan of tractability and partnership I am. I guess I see the trait of sensibility very strongly linked to it. A lot of partnership comes from the training method and training relationship. I have found that the very sensible dog is invariably tractable and as I said in the article, invariably has a good temperment. 

Sagacity is subtly different than smartness but again I believe that the super smart dog develops sagacity with experience and good training situations.

I suppose we could break traits down into a dozen or more types especially if we get into some of the performance areas like marking, line-running, response to unfavorable conditions and so on. Some people are telling me they are already over-whelmed however.

Cheers


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

> I suppose we could break traits down into a dozen or more types especially if we get into some of the performance areas like marking, line-running, response to unfavorable conditions and so on. Some people are telling me they are already over-whelmed however.


When the student is ready, the teacher appears. You might not understand the weight of someone's words until much later, when you have the experience to put it in perspective. 

I guess what I'm saying is, put the information out there!  Let it rattle around in someone's brain and one day they'll be on the line and go "OH." and angels will descend and rainbows will appear and your dog will go pick up a duck like he's never picked up a duck before. :razz:



RetrieversONLINE said:


> Many traits can change from puppyhood to adulthood-or at least their expression and thus appear to change. Plus, a good trainer can learn to get the most out of a low or high score trait. However, I have learned over the years that you cannot change the fundamental nature of a dog, but only learn how to make the best of it.


You can modify a trait, but you can never escape genetics. Think of the puppy mill dog that spends years in a tiny cage, and six months after being placed in a home is a mostly normal dog, or the obedience trainer's sport pick puppy who just never quite gets out of her shell, despite the best puppy rearing in the world. You can stroke and build desire, but you can't put it in if it's not there in the first place. You can make an 8 into a 6 or a 10, but you can't make a 3 a 9.



RetrieversONLINE said:


> I don't believe in a "paint by number" approach to dog correction or even training. *Learn to read your dog and believe what he is telling you.* The scoring chart is designed to help you identify and think about what you might have so that you can custom train (or evaluate) what you have.





> In other cases, the dog will exhibit extreme submissive behaviour such as lying down, belly-up or curling around your leg. Some of this behaviour is “escape behaviour that the dog has learned might stop the pressure. Quite often these dogs take a long time to recover from the pressure incident.


I was wondering if you could comment on these two points. I have seen reference on this forum to dogs "shamming" the trainer, the dog has the owner trained, the dog knows he can put on a show to get out of training. Often, there is a tone that you need to crack down on the dog so he knows he can't get away with that. The training I have had in dog training and behavior says dogs aren't capable of that. Dogs don't lie, they wear their heart on their collar, as it were.


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## Rick Coats (Oct 3, 2007)

I am going to attempt to interpret why Rex Carr did not include marking in the list of desirable traits to which Dennis referred. This conversation with Rex occurred some 27 years ago, but I believe I recall it nearly word for word. 
I brought Rex a 2-year-old bitch that was a fire-breathing renegade. Her early training consisted of some VERY basic obedience, semi-force fetch and HUNDREDS of marks. I was explaining to Rex why I thought she was worth the time and money to try and tame, my primary reason was she was a terrific marker; she always knew where the birds were. 
He commented: “I would rather NOT know if a dog can mark”. “These days a dog can not win without near total control on blinds and line”. “ A dog that THINKS he knows where the birds are is less willing to be directed by the handler” “ I would rather first determine if a dog can be taught to handle, because if he can’t handle, he can’t win, no matter how well he can mark”. 
I believe these comments also speak to the temperament of the dogs that won in the pre-collar days. Physically tough dogs that could take the force training typical of the day. Rex wanted a smart dog that was MENTALLY tough enough to learn what he was teaching them. By the way Billy got control of that bitch in a big hurry. Rex later called her “National caliber.” Too bad I wasn’t.


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

Rick Coats said:


> He commented: “I would rather NOT know if a dog can mark”. “These days a dog can not win without near total control on blinds and line”. “ A dog that THINKS he knows where the birds are is less willing to be directed by the handler” “ I would rather first determine if a dog can be taught to handle, because if he can’t handle, he can’t win, no matter how well he can mark”.
> I believe these comments also speak to the temperament of the dogs that won in the pre-collar days. Physically tough dogs that could take the force training typical of the day. Rex wanted a smart dog that was MENTALLY tough enough to learn what he was teaching them. By the way Billy got control of that bitch in a big hurry. Rex later called her “National caliber.” Too bad I wasn’t.


As a side note, this is why people say trial dogs can't/won't/don't hunt. Field trials are just as strong an artificial selection pressure as conformation shows are.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

RaeganW said:


> As a side note, *this is why people say trial dogs can't/won't/don't hunt.* Field trials are just as strong an artificial selection pressure as conformation shows are.


 
Anybody that says that about trial dogs has extremely limited experience


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

RaeganW said:


> When the student is ready, the teacher appears. You might not understand the weight of someone's words until much later, when you have the experience to put it in perspective.


This is directly from the horse literature. Often said by Ray Hunt and his disciples. I personally experienced when jumping into horses!!!


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

RaeganW said:


> Field trials are just as strong an artificial selection pressure as conformation shows are.


No doubt, as every breed are selected. 

I live in a country where field labradors are considered homely, as bench looks are the norm. 

From time to time I debate their function, looks and health - the main question I ask bench lovers, is what trait would I gain from their/or other bench lines.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

RaeganW said:


> I was wondering if you could comment on these two points. I have seen reference on this forum to dogs "shamming" the trainer, the dog has the owner trained, the dog knows he can put on a show to get out of training. Often, there is a tone that you need to crack down on the dog so he knows he can't get away with that. The training I have had in dog training and behavior says dogs aren't capable of that. Dogs don't lie, they wear their heart on their collar, as it were.


I agree but dogs do very quickly learn what keeps them safe or secure or allows them to escape something uncomfortable. So avoidance and escape behaviour is often tried and then pursued when successful. 

However, this is not lying, or trying to "get you" or "shamming" the trainer. But it is often a form of training the trainer. I have seen that often.

Bottom-line? Dogs don't lie but a lot of people don't even hear what they are saying. I'm not saying this is always easy to read! Dogs aren't out to get you-they are out to do what is best for their interests. 

*I believe g**ood training can make their interests and our interests the same! *


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Rick Coats said:


> I am going to attempt to interpret why Rex Carr did not include marking in the list of desirable traits to which Dennis referred. This conversation with Rex occurred some 27 years ago, but I believe I recall it nearly word for word.
> I brought Rex a 2-year-old bitch that was a fire-breathing renegade. Her early training consisted of some VERY basic obedience, semi-force fetch and HUNDREDS of marks. I was explaining to Rex why I thought she was worth the time and money to try and tame, my primary reason was she was a terrific marker; she always knew where the birds were.
> He commented: “I would rather NOT know if a dog can mark”. “These days a dog can not win without near total control on blinds and line”. “ A dog that THINKS he knows where the birds are is less willing to be directed by the handler” “ I would rather first determine if a dog can be taught to handle, because if he can’t handle, he can’t win, no matter how well he can mark”.
> I believe these comments also speak to the temperament of the dogs that won in the pre-collar days. Physically tough dogs that could take the force training typical of the day. Rex wanted a smart dog that was MENTALLY tough enough to learn what he was teaching them. By the way Billy got control of that bitch in a big hurry. Rex later called her “National caliber.” Too bad I wasn’t.


Rick

I don't disagree at all with what you say. And there is no doubt a superb marker is a huge asset these days. I guess I would say that first you need intelligence, temperment and desire and if you have a world-class marker you have the whole enchilada necessary for today--assuming the proper training


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## Rick Coats (Oct 3, 2007)

In response to the comment that “trial dogs can’t/don’t/won’t hunt”. The bitch from my story hunted upland game like a machine. Finally at age 12 I had to leave her at home to keep her safe. She only had one speed WIDE OPEN ! I had to pick her up to load her in the truck the last day I took her quail hunting.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> I was wondering if you could comment on these two points. I have seen reference on this forum to dogs "shamming" the trainer, the dog has the owner trained, the dog knows he can put on a show to get out of training. Often, there is a tone that you need to crack down on the dog so he knows he can't get away with that. The training I have had in dog training and behavior says dogs aren't capable of that. Dogs don't lie, they wear their heart on their collar, as it were.


I don't think dogs lie as we understand it. However, I would think if they get pressure they truly do not like or truly cannot handle, they react, and training stops for the day or the pressure decreases, I absolutely think they are capable of associating that and manipulating you to keep the pressure down or nonexistent.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> I don't think dogs lie as we understand it. However, I would think if they get pressure they truly do not like or truly cannot handle, they react, and training stops for the day or the pressure decreases, I absolutely think they are capable of associating that and manipulating you to keep the pressure down or nonexistent.


The problem is the word "manipulate." Manipulation implies intent to deceive, dogs probably don't have this cognitive ability. In order to deceive, you have to know that the other party has different knowledge than yourself---it's called theory of mind in psychology. Small children do not have theory of mind, and no one so far has convincingly shown that dogs have it. When people say "your dog is playing you like a fiddle" I think they are claiming the dog has plotted to outwit me, and science hasn't shown that dogs can do this.


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## JR51 (Jan 11, 2011)

Hey Dennis
That is a great article. I also wanted to mention how much I have learned from your training retrievers alone dvd. Thank you for taking time to teach and share your knowledge. 

Jeff


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

mitty said:


> The problem is the word "manipulate." Manipulation implies intent to deceive, dogs probably don't have this cognitive ability. \.


Not sure about this I have several dogs, particularly females that will run perfectly for me and certain other people, but flat out play with other handlers, any way they can. They test-test-test. All of sudden solid multiple MH titled dogs become unable to do single marks, flinch at any pressure, and no longer understand casts, they are the best actors in the world. I've had very experienced handlers, attempt to run them, even had a phone call once asking me, if I was sure this was a finished level dog. If they play with experienced handlers, what do you think happens to inexperienced? I know they didn't learn how to play these games from me. If this isn't K-9 manipulation (the ability to manage or influence skillfully to suit one's purpose or advantage), I don't know what is. If science hasn't proven it, it's just because they haven't figured out how to test for it, maybe they should study some field dogs


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Not sure about this I have several dogs, particularly females that will run perfectly for me and certain other people, but flat out play with other handlers, any way they can. They test-test-test. All of sudden solid multiple MH titled dogs become unable to do single marks, flinch at any pressure, and no longer understand casts, they are the best actors in the world. I've had very experienced handlers, attempt to run them, even had a phone call once asking me, if I was sure this was a finished level dog. If they play with experienced handlers, what do you think happens to inexperienced? I know they didn't learn how to play these games from me. If this isn't K-9 manipulation I don't know what is. If science hasn't proven it, it's just because they haven't figured out how to test for it, maybe they should study some field dogs


This could also be interpreted as a learned response. You think the dog is pretending that it doesn't know how to cast. Or is the dog refusing to do what it is told because it has learned that with new people it can disobey?

My dog sits when I tell her, but she doesn't listen to my husband. Is she pretending she doesn't know how to sit? I doubt it. She has learned that my husband will do snuggle buddies eventually if she stays all crazy and cute, nothing better than snuggle buddies...I think your example is similar (though without the snuggle buddy reward ).

To add: if dogs can become collar wise or test wise, why not handler wise?


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## DCKHNTR (Nov 24, 2011)

Thank you! The article answers many questions I have about the nature my dog, and that of dogs in general.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Not sure about this I have several dogs, particularly females that will run perfectly for me and certain other people, but flat out play with other handlers, any way they can. They test-test-test. All of sudden solid multiple MH titled dogs become unable to do single marks, flinch at any pressure, and no longer understand casts, they are the best actors in the world. I've had very experienced handlers, attempt to run them, even had a phone call once asking me, if I was sure this was a finished level dog. If they play with experienced handlers, what do you think happens to inexperienced? I know they didn't learn how to play these games from me. If this isn't K-9 manipulation (the ability to manage or influence skillfully to suit one's purpose or advantage), I don't know what is. If science hasn't proven it, it's just because they haven't figured out how to test for it, maybe they should study some field dogs


I gotta add that I have no investment in the theory of mind debate, but I was curious and read into it. I have my own experiences that make me think that dogs can lie. For example, one of my dogs has gotten very crafty about counter surfing---she used to get in trouble because we could hear her banging around the dishes. She still sneaks food but verrrrry verrrry quietly, no more crashing plates to the floor----the plates are mysteriously clean at times, though. While I rationalized that the dog has simply learned that noise=no food and that quiet=food, she has to be very cunning to get away with it. They other day she goofed and a knife fell to the floor, I got in there in time to see her try to dart away and I swear she was trying to put a "it wasn't me" look on her face. So I dunno.


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Let me put this question out there. Have the dogs in these 'manipulation' examples previously referred to, possibly NOT learned to R-E-S-P-E-C-T other handlers, no matter the experience of the handler?

That in itself is something that needs to be taught - IMO. Just like dogs don't 'generalize' learned (or natural) skills until it is presented in many different places, conditions, etc, they probably need to learn that a new person holding the leash or giving commands needs to be respected. If they learn first at home that they can get what *they* want from the other spouse or the kids, then that experience transfers out to the field when someone else is now 'in charge' (but not necessarily in the dog's mind). 

The idea that part of a dog's training should be 'let someone else take the leash' is not new, but usually just happens by accident. Meaning, the field or obedience trainer takes the dog to show the handler what to do 'better'. So pup gets used to a new boss. The older the dog, the more they want to get back to 'mamma", very likely. 
If the owner/handler knows doesn't need help early on, then no one takes the dog until he is older and then the dog probably (not always) acts like they don't know what the game is. I'm just generalizing of course. Not all dogs react the same way with new situations.

This just got me to thinking that when I get my new pup, that I should ask others to be his 'boss' every so often. Of course, once he actually knows a particular skill well enough. Then he'll get the chance to generalize his experience with a new handler/boss.

Debbie Tandoc


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## jscormi (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm starting to get it but still not totally sure about my dog. I just acquired a 1 year old golden... beautiful. Previous owners loved him but didn't have time. Seems super smart... working on heel and sit, stay... the basics, he does really well. Takes correction and learns. Loves to retrieve and swim but I see the extreme submissive thing. Sometimes when you call him he rolls and pees. The other day he retrieved fine but when he returned with bumper, rolled and pee'd or comes in with head low. Where does he fit on this scale. With him I am after a gun dog... do -able? Any advice appreciated


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## jscormi (Jan 2, 2012)

Donna Kerr said:


> Thank you Dennis. That was a great read and really helped explain things to me!
> 
> I’m thinking my 2 year old is probably a C rank. You really have to watch corrections, and praise, as it is painfully obvious at times that he is sensitive and soft. He has high desire (will throw dirt to get to a mark) but he has also completely stopped retrieving (to the point that he just sits there) when we returned to an area that he had received a correction at in the past. It took quite a bit of doing (lots of just fun bumpers and I had to get Daddy to come out) and NO corrections to get him over that. He seems to be ok now. He refuses to work for some handlers all together and knows who is standing next to him at all times. He is smart and sensible, very good OB dog and a fantastic house dog. But treat with “Kid Gloves”?....oh my lord YES!


So, is or would this dog be a good hunter in your opinion?


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## Donna Kerr (May 19, 2003)

He hunts, but he is also…interesting. 

His “shut downs” come in training for the most part and only occasionally in the blind or field. He shuts down then IF Dad loses his temper about anything. Now please remember that we have had Scrub since he was 7.5 weeks, he has never received even a swat on the rump from Ken and he has always been like this. It is just his nature. Ken nicknamed him “Tenderheart” at 9 weeks old. Say you stub your toe and make an exclamation about it…Scrub will slink away and hide in the other room, he will look like someone has just beat the holy your know what out of him. But when he turns it on in the field he can really turn it on and be wonderful to watch. He does not roll and pee, never has. He has a very low e-collar level tolerance. You also need to watch praise with him as he will turn into a wiggling, tail wagging, slinking mess and drop whatever he is doing.

Scrubs basics were done by a highly respected local pro. Scrub was doing well and then one day just said “No, I’m not working for you.” and he hasn’t ever since. Same thing happened to woman in our training group. He worked for her just fine and then said “No, I’m done with you too”. This whole time he worked very well for me but then that day came for me too. I gave him a correction on a water retrieve off a levee and when we returned to that levee he would not move. He remembered that levee and would not move, period…that is when we had to just let him have fun again for a while and it has worked. He trained very well late fall. He has not shut down on me at all this hunting season. (I really need to watch his body language and react to it before he gets to that state.) So, does he hunt? Yes! He is a very good hunter! He put up six Pheasants on New Year’s Eve of which we took home five, kid missed the sixth.

Strengths – high drive, good nose, good marker, biddable, smart.

Weaknesses – soft and sensitive, likes to break (we have worked on steadiness a lot), wants to drop his bird early (hold) and that gets us in trouble a lot, *really smart*…

Now with your dog you are saying that it rolls and pees. At the same time or is it stopping to pee or take a good roll on the return? These are different behaviors and they are not necessarily submissive but avoidance. They don’t want to give up their prize and will “stall” to hold on to it. This includes lowering of the head. Good luck with your dog and give it some time as it is a year old and in a new environment.


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

jscormi said:


> I'm starting to get it but still not totally sure about my dog. I just acquired a 1 year old golden... beautiful. Previous owners loved him but didn't have time. Seems super smart... working on heel and sit, stay... the basics, he does really well. Takes correction and learns. Loves to retrieve and swim but I see the extreme submissive thing. Sometimes when you call him he rolls and pees. The other day he retrieved fine but when he returned with bumper, rolled and pee'd or comes in with head low. Where does he fit on this scale. With him I am after a gun dog... do -able? Any advice appreciated


How long have you had him? Some of it may be stress related to changing homes. Give him a routine and ease off on the social demands. Let him come to you.

Some submissive body language can be exacerbated by overly strong body language. Often the human is unaware of what they're doing, but it's enough to overwhelm a really sensitive dog. 

When you call her, how do you stand? Try turning away from her, 15 degrees may be enough or you may need to turn all the way away. If you're doing a casual recall, "Hey dog, come in my general direction please," call his name or get his attention (don't use your official recall command) and walk in the direction you want him to go. Obviously this isn't going to fix your formal recall, but it will help control his movement as he gets used to you.

Really sensitive dogs can also be reluctant to come in really close to you, that's an invasion of your personal space (and, if you're using really strong body language, you claim a lot of personal space, which pushes the dog farther off). It's a very common problem with Border Collies and other herding breeds, who are highly sensitized to personal space. Staying out of a more dominant dog's space is polite and respectful. It can be trained through, of course, but it's something to be aware of. Correcting it often makes it worse, the dog will actually sit farther next time trying to appease you.

Good luck with him. Sensitive dogs will make you a better trainer.


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## jscormi (Jan 2, 2012)

Thanks for the quick replies folks  He has only been with us about 4 or 5 days now. Seems to be doing really well around the house. Gets excited and comes to me (and everyone else) for petting and checking in... if we are sitting around, he will come and try to get you to pet him. Just sometimes you call him and he comes and expects petting and another time he acts like you are yelling at him and comes in reluctantly, laying down and dribbling pee. As far as I can tell, it was the same call??? I will try some of the turn and walk and call suggestions. I am sure he needs more time to acclimate as well.

If you two, or anyone, has any guidance on how to train him with this sensitivity ie... how to correct or even show what you want from the command, that would be helpful  All the videos I see, the dog is chomping at the bit to go... of course 

I will be easy on the training for a while and let him settle in more and just try to bond for now. Sure I will have more questions as I go.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

The holy grail for picking a field trial capable puppy, then, is to identify these traits as seven week old puppies so your investment in time, money, and emotions are best spent. I have seen some of the puppy tests but do not have much experience with them. It would be nice to develop a similar table to score puppy traits that map to the traits in the table Dennis posted. Puppies change a lot from day to day and week to week, but I think you can see some consistent behaviors emerge early.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

..great thread...of course. 

Appreciated. 

Judy


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I agree but dogs do very quickly learn what keeps them safe or secure or allows them to escape something uncomfortable. So avoidance and escape behaviour is often tried and then pursued when successful.
> 
> However, this is not lying, or trying to "get you" or "shamming" the trainer. But it is often a form of training the trainer. I have seen that often.
> 
> ...


I hope everyone reads this post and pays close attention to every word...Dennis couldn't have put it in better words ...." *Dogs don't lie but a lot of people don't even hear..."*..."*avoidance and escape behaviour **But it is often a form of training the trainer"...* Steve S


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