# HRC Grand



## Greg Lee - Timberpond Retrievers (Mar 11, 2009)

ANY UPDATE TO CALL BACKS AT THE GRAND? Pls Post if available!

Thanks

Timberpond Retrievers Trng Group


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Since today is the first day I don't think they'll do callbacks until much later in the day, there are about 100 in each flight.

Here's a link to the links when they do get them posted:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...ple-of-links-for-the-Spring-Grand-April-20-24


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

Thru the 2nd series, it appears in total 203 (50%) of the original starting 410 dogs remain. Is that about standard thru 2 series?
- Flight A - Only 28 (29%) of the 97 dogs in this flight remain thru 2nd series 
- Flight B - Only 48 (44%) of the 108 dogs in this flight remain thru 2nd series
- Flight C - 62 (60%) of the 103 dogs in this flight remain thr 2nd series
- Flight D - 67 (65%) of the 102 dogs in this flight remain thru the 2nd series.

Question - This is truly an observation and reporting of numbers from the HRC website, but there are drastic differences in pass/fail ratios between Flight A and Flight C/D. *My newbie question is, do ALL dogs at the GRAND run the same test setup...on different days, or would the Flight D dogs never see/run the Flight A test that had such a poor pass ratio? *I find it hard to believe such a difference in dogs between Flights considering the pass/fail variance.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

jpws said:


> Thru the 2nd series, it appears in total 203 (50%) of the original starting 410 dogs remain. Is that about standard thru 2 series?
> - Flight A - Only 28 (29%) of the 97 dogs in this flight remain thru 2nd series
> - Flight B - Only 48 (44%) of the 108 dogs in this flight remain thru 2nd series
> - Flight C - 62 (60%) of the 103 dogs in this flight remain thr 2nd series
> ...


383 actually ran. 410 signed up. i'm assuming some of those entries were conditional (on 100 points before the grand), some were injuries, and some were in heat.

flight C started at the drake water which is eating everyone's lunch. gunner's up land is also getting a bunch of dogs in trouble. C went from 103 to 69 first day at drake. then 55 after 2nd day at purina. today they are at tri-tronics water. tomorrow gunner's up land. wednesday all remaining dogs from all flights are ran in an upland test.

there are 4 tests each group switches to the next test. C and D started at the harder tests. both tests had about 80% of the field handling to the same marks (on respective tests). every test after those tests handler's swallowed their whistles on all marks because one more handle and you are out. 

groups A and B started at the somewhat less harder tests. if they thought their dogs were having trouble first day some may have blown an early whistle and handled not realizing they'd need that handle at one of the other more difficult tests. after they rotated to harder test the next day dogs were dropping quick.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

For the Grand the test setup stays in place, with the same judges and the dogs rotate through the different tests. Appears the test that flight A ran is a kicker, then B. Perhaps Flight A can sweat a little less, flights C&D probably not looking forward to the test A just finished 

http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/2013SpringGrand/index.htm


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

blake_mhoona said:


> 383 actually ran. 410 signed up. i'm assuming some of those entries were conditional (on 100 points before the grand), some were injuries, and some
> 
> groups A and B started at the somewhat less harder tests. if they thought their dogs were having trouble first day some may have blown an early whistle and handled not realizing they'd need that handle at one of the other more difficult tests. after they rotated to harder test the next day dogs were dropping quick.



based on the % pass/fail, your comment is not accurate about Group A/B. Their pass ratio was considerably lower than C/D...making D look like a cakewalk as compared to A. maybe i'm just reading it wrong....but %'s usually don't lie??


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

jpws said:


> based on the % pass/fail, your comment is not accurate about Group A/B. Their pass ratio was considerably lower than C/D...making D look like a cakewalk as compared to A. maybe i'm just reading it wrong....but %'s usually don't lie??


What I'm saying is that C and D had harder test first and handled but passed. The next day the handlers were more willing to let the dog work as opposed to getting dropped. A and B had easier test first and some handlers handled on the easy test (not knowing they'd need the handle on the next day) instead of letting the dogs work. The next day the tough test put them out when the handle was needed. 

Saturday C ran drake and A ran purina. Sunday C ran purina and A ran drake. All conditions were the same. And roughly 80% of the field handled on drake both days. Problem was A had already used some handles on Saturday at purina and they were dropped. Whereas C used their handle on the hard test so at the easier test they just let the dogs work. 

Today A is at the hard land (gunners up where D started) and C is at easy water (tri tronics where B started)

jest of the story its better to start out on hardest test (see group C and D) than easy (group A B)


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Most of the time at the Grand the decision to handle is made for you. "Put your dog on the bird" is a common phrase.


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

Hearing a lot of disgruntled handlers from Flight A. Anyone there know the story?


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

blake_mhoona said:


> What I'm saying is that C and D had harder test first and handled but passed. The next day the handlers were more willing to let the dog work as opposed to getting dropped. A and B had easier test first and some handlers handled on the easy test (not knowing they'd need the handle on the next day) instead of letting the dogs work. The next day the tough test put them out when the handle was needed.
> 
> Saturday C ran drake and A ran purina. Sunday C ran purina and A ran drake. All conditions were the same. And roughly 80% of the field handled on drake both days. Problem was A had already used some handles on Saturday at purina and they were dropped. Whereas C used their handle on the hard test so at the easier test they just let the dogs work.
> 
> ...




it still appears your story is off. Based on the numbers A had by far the hardest considering how few passed. c/d had the highest percentage of passes of which one make assume that it was easier.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

jpws said:


> it still appears your story is off. Based on the numbers A had by far the hardest considering how few passed. c/d had the highest percentage of passes of which one make assume that it was easier.


i guess you still dont understand. A and B both had high number of passes saturday. C and D both had signifigant drops on saturday. A then did C's test Sunday. lots of A were dropped because handlers wasted their 1 free handle the day before not thinking that they would need it the next day. more were dropped when A did the test than when C did the same test because they had to handle for the second time whereas C got to run the test and use their first (and only) handle on it. so a very very signifigant drop occured because many dogs could not handle as they had wasted a handle the day before on the easy test. the same for B. when they went to D's test the next day they had a very very signifigant amount of drops (more than D on the same test the day before) compared to the day before because dogs had to handle on the easy test. C and D were on the easy test sunday so they didnt handle if they didnt have to or judges didnt tell them too so more of them stayed in the game. 

however you want to say it. drake and gunners up are the hardest tests (slight edge to drake). C and D faced them first. the next day A and B were both on those tests and had high amount of drops more so than the previous groups that went their first. in the end it all shakes out but if a dog gets through drake and gunners up with only 1 handle they will still be in the game as the other two tests are more straight forward.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

kona's mom said:


> Hearing a lot of disgruntled handlers from Flight A. Anyone there know the story?


Nicole. Always two sides to a story.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

blake_mhoona said:


> i guess you still dont understand. A and B both had high number of passes saturday. C and D both had signifigant drops on saturday. A then did C's test Sunday. lots of A were dropped because handlers wasted their 1 free handle the day before not thinking that they would need it the next day. more were dropped when A did the test than when C did the same test because they had to handle for the second time whereas C got to run the test and use their first (and only) handle on it. so a very very signifigant drop occured because many dogs could not handle as they had wasted a handle the day before on the easy test. the same for B. when they went to D's test the next day they had a very very signifigant amount of drops (more than D on the same test the day before) compared to the day before because dogs had to handle on the easy test. C and D were on the easy test sunday so they didnt handle if they didnt have to or judges didnt tell them too so more of them stayed in the game.
> 
> however you want to say it. drake and gunners up are the hardest tests (slight edge to drake). C and D faced them first. the next day A and B were both on those tests and had high amount of drops more so than the previous groups that went their first. in the end it all shakes out but if a dog gets through drake and gunners up with only 1 handle they will still be in the game as the other two tests are more straight forward.


You may have to go back and re-evaluate your analysis. A ran Tritronics Saturday and gunners up Sunday. B ran gunners up Saturday and Tritronics Sunday.
C and D ran Purina and Drake Saturday and Sunday, switching each day. The order you hace each flight running the tests is wrong.


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## duxbac (Apr 22, 2009)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Nicole. Always two sides to a story.


Usually three sides to every story.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

duxbac said:


> Usually three sides to every story.


Even truer


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

So over half the dogs are dropped after only 2 series? Obviously too many young dogs being allowed into the Grand.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

caryalsobrook said:


> You may have to go back and re-evaluate your analysis. A ran Tritronics Saturday and gunners up Sunday. B ran gunners up Saturday and Tritronics Sunday.
> C and D ran Purina and Drake Saturday and Sunday, switching each day. The order you hace each flight running the tests is wrong.


you are correct i just realized it this morning when someone from goup B texted me. i was following group C Saturday and Sunday then came back home for work. I was told A was who we were switching with but i see now that it was D. i guess that takes away my explanation.

i do know that drake and gunner's up are the hardest test and C started with drake and ended with gunner's up today.

of the 383 that ran they are down to 98 with

A=16
B=34
C=20
D=28

here is a statistics page on each test's pass percentage as well as each flight's pass percentage. Gunner's up and drake are eating everyone's lunch

http://www.fourstateshrc.com/grandstats.htm

looks like the final pass rate could well be in the 10-20% range. tough test


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Nicole. Always two sides to a story.


I had to sit this one out due to a family matter, but been in communication everyday sometimes twice a day with the gentleman handling my dog, and have heard nothing.


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

Guys, gunners up was the meat grinder. Drake had 1 killer bird. But gunners up was judged very tightly! Every bird could take you out. That's if your dog sat still after having a duck call blown as you walked to the line and the dry shot on the way in didn't get him/her. 

Overall it was a fun grand. 4 good series with one being judged tighter than the other 3. Just my .02


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Here's a fun (and pointless) little statistic. Of the 385 or so dogs that ran, 130 were also titled in AKC at the MH and/or QAA level.
I don't know how that compares to previous Grands, but it's nice to see people participating in more than one venue. 

Andy, huge congratulations on a nice pass for your dog! I've seen him run, he's a fantastic, talented dog.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

I ran all four tests- Started on GU land, all three birds and the blind gave dogs and handlers a challenge. Moved to Tritronics water next, that was a tricky test with the delayed triple and the blind that was more like a channel blind. Purina land was a nice straight up land test with a higher % of passes then the other three. The last test was Drake, this test had the most interesting marking concept that I obviously had not trained enough on  I had a blast, all tests that I ran were fair and judges to the grand level, all the judges were curtious and also understanding when your dog went out. Thumbs up to 4 States HRC on this grand. 

This was Meg's last grand, she will be semi-retired running the Upland and the minimal weekend finished tests.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Brad B said:


> So over half the dogs are dropped after only 2 series? Obviously too many young dogs being allowed into the Grand.


Maybe they have to have 300 points before they run the grand


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Here's a fun (and pointless) little statistic. Of the 385 or so dogs that ran, 130 were also titled in AKC at the MH and/or QAA level.
> I don't know how that compares to previous Grands, but it's nice to see people participating in more than one venue.
> 
> Andy, huge congratulations on a nice pass for your dog! I've seen him run, he's a fantastic, talented dog.


There are normally quite a few dogs with MH titles running the grand....you are right, good cross training.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

Thank you Barb!!


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## StElmoQn (Oct 20, 2004)

Wow, some must have been at a different Grand than me. I didn't hear anyone happy, with almost everyone grumbling about one particular stake and set of judges, who judged shoddily and inconsistently. Then after traveling to an AKC test this weekend, many handlers there who were at the Grand were still talking about how bad it was and how they would reconsider if they would ever run another unless things change drastically within HRC.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

StElmoQn said:


> Wow, some must have been at a different Grand than me. I didn't hear anyone happy, with almost everyone grumbling about one particular stake and set of judges, who judged shoddily and inconsistently. Then after traveling to an AKC test this weekend, many handlers there who were at the Grand were still talking about how bad it was and how they would reconsider if they would ever run another unless things change drastically within HRC.


Was the phrase "you must stand in front of the bucket" used as a description on this set of judges by chance?


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## StElmoQn (Oct 20, 2004)

blake_mhoona said:


> Was the phrase "you must stand in front of the bucket" used as a description on this set of judges by chance?


Now you must have been at the same Grand as me! Spot on with your question...


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

StElmoQn said:


> Now you must have been at the same Grand as me! Spot on with your question...


indeed i was

some may have also described them by saying that a camo hat with mesh backing was not camouflaged enough nor was a camo visor per the same judges ruling

or that they were quick to say "put your dog on the bird". 

one such instance occurred when the handler sent the dog for the long bird second instead of last like everyone else and as soon as he passed the short left bird the "put your dog on the bird" comment came out. little did they know which bird he was going for so he used a handle regretting later that he should of turned around and said he's going for the long.


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