# Training without e-collar



## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

I have had my pup at the trainer for about 7 weeks and have been told that she is doing quite well. One thing I was curious about is that the trainer said she does not use an e-collar unless it's necessary for a hard dog. I don't have a problem with that and wouldn't have a problem if she did. I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?


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## Glenn Norton (Oct 23, 2011)

arklahunter said:


> I have had my pup at the trainer for about 7 weeks and have been told that she is doing quite well. One thing I was curious about is that the trainer said she does not use an e-collar unless it's necessary for a hard dog. I don't have a problem with that and wouldn't have a problem if she did. I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?


Absolutly!!!!!!!!


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Is that a "good" Absolutely, or a "bad" Absolutely???


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

arklahunter said:


> Is that a "good" Absolutely, or a "bad" Absolutely???


I would say it depends on the trainer.I don`t think there are many people that can train to a high level WITHOUT the use of a collar nowadays.A question I often ask myself is how many people would actually be training dogs if there was no collar.Jim


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

arklahunter said:


> Is that a "good" Absolutely, or a "bad" Absolutely???


I'm guessing its an answer to your question...

"I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?"

My answer to that question is absolutely.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> I would say it depends on the trainer.I don`t think there are many people that can train to a high level WITHOUT the use of a collar nowadays.A question I often ask myself is how many people would actually be training dogs if there was no collar.Jim


They would likely be shooting the dog with rat shot at close range and bird shot at longer range. Walking out to the dog that cheats the water and using a cattle prod. Because those new fangled electronic collars are extreme.

Read the book _Training Retrievers to Handle_ by DL and Ann Walters


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

It's a refreshing answer, absolutely unique. A dog can become fantastic in the field without the e-collar.
Sounds like you have a good trainer.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Please don`t bring back those memories. Ha! I grew up on that somewhat .Point being how many today know how to use those tools.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Dooley said:


> It's a refreshing answer, absolutely unique. A dog can become fantastic in the field without the e-collar.
> Sounds like you have a good trainer.


What is fantastic? Can you name an FC or AFC that has titled in the last 10 years with out ever using an ecollar in training?

Doesn't mean you don't have a good trainer, but it also doesn't mean the dog can't be abused in training by someone that doesn't ever use an ecollar. The ecollar is a great tool and no more or less of a tool that can be use poorly than a lead and heeling stick.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

captainjack said:


> What is fantastic? Can you name an FC or AFC that has titled in the last 10 years with out ever using an ecollar in training?
> 
> Doesn't mean you don't have a good trainer, but it also doesn't mean the dog can't be abused in training by someone that doesn't ever use an ecollar. The ecollar is a great tool and no more or less of a tool that can be use poorly than a lead and heeling stick.


On another note read the book Chareles Morgan on retrievers.Jim


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

What's the title of the book by Charles Morgan, thanks.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Dooley said:


> What's the title of the book by Charles Morgan, thanks.


Charles Morgan On Retrievers.


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## joel druley (Sep 6, 2010)

Charles Morgan On Retrievers-edited by Ann Fowler & D>L. Walters.--An Abercrombie & Fitch Book copyright 1968,1971 & 1974
Library of Congress catalog card number 67-24866


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> Please don`t bring back those memories. Ha! I grew up on that somewhat .Point being how many today know how to use those tools.


*From everything I ever heard about your dad, he was a extremely good trainer who didnt have to resort to such brutal methods, and his results in being a National Finalist and titling many dogs prove that*





[email protected] said:


> I remember the days of training without the collar. Hiding in ambush while my girlfriend ran the dog, waiting for the dog to cheat so I could jump out and correct. Sprinting into the field to correct (running right at the dog-get down on their level and see what that looks like).* Shooting the dog with bird shot. Using a sling shot. Whips, Prods, Shotguns, sling shots*....I think I'll take the e-collar.
> Though I do still use a sling shot as part of my forcing routine, for a very short time.
> Walt


*used to run ...now we walk, which serves two purposes...it gives the trainer time to "cool off and think about the situation" and it gives the dog time to think about what could happen "when your dad gets here" :razz::razz:

have used a whip/heeling stick, but can honestly say we have NEVER shot at a dog,NEVER used a slingshot, NEVER used a prod...have seen them used by people no longer with us in this world*


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks Bon,you are excactly correct,but as a youngster got to train (throw) with some of the most successfull pro`s at the time and saw firsthand alot of the methods at the time.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I would think the success rate of your trainer would answere your question.


When you visit a training session with the pro and your dog,,How do other dogs they have perform?

What do references the Pro has, have to say about the dog the pro trained?

Does the Pro train primarily for HT or FT? Whats the success rate?

Methods speak for themselves directly by success,and levels of performance.

Other than good discussion,, Why ask that question here? The answere is right in front of your nose at the Pros kennel.

JMHDAO.

Gooser


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Yes, training without an E collar is possible but I would have the dog CC. I have a collar but rarely use it on him. My 2 1/2 yo, Tar, was trained without. I did use it to train on very long blinds either a buzz or a nick if I found he was giving me a little lack of effort or fooling around. To save time instead of walking out especially if I knew he knew what was expected of him (key principle of using the collar) I used IP and a firm "no" or "ah" and get results. I would also say my 2 1/2yo is an exception to the rule. Best bet CC and use the collar as little as possible. IMHO.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I was an Amish trainer right up until I got my current lab, who turns 6 at the end of the month. I finally decided to open my mind and try to use what I'd learned to that point, combined with what I could learn new, using some modern e-collar training material. I personally used Mike Lardy's material as the primary source of instructional information for this.

I trained a few Amish dogs to "Master Level" accomplishments without resorting to shooting the dogs, cattle prodding the dogs, etc. I know that some of my buddies and peers that I trained with (some of who are still Amish to this day) will find it unfair to be painted with that broad of a brush. Just because someone chooses to train without an e-collar, does not automatically mean they will use some other specific pain inflicting tool for negative reinforcement. 

While I agree with Bon on the idea of a Amish tennis shoe correction needing a trainer with a clear mind, I find that the idea of "walking" to the dog only exacerbates my primary criticism of tennis shoe Amish corrections. A tennis shoe Amish correction - meaning stopping the dog on a whistle or verbal and walking, running, swimming, waddling out to the dog to "have a talk" with him - is an application of indirect pressure. The problem is it is indirect pressure with poor timing. There is a significant lag between the behavior for which the dog is being corrected and the administration of that correction.

Amish corrected dogs will behave like they know they're in trouble. They will give body language that they know they did wrong. In my opinion, this is largely a conditioned response to the mere fact that their trainer is once again making the Amish march out to the dog. So the dog sees the trainer coming and is conditioned to what's coming next. 

My primary reason that I'm glad I no longer train Amish is that I no longer impose this un-necessary *mental pressure *on the dog of the Amish Tennis Shoe correction. As an e-collar trainer, If I need to use indirect pressure, the timing is right there, immediately applied as needed, and then it is over and we are right back to working on whatever task we were doing. The correction becomes a minor bump in the road, rather than becoming the entire focus of the training session at that time.

Good luck and have fun! Chris


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

That may be where we differ the most Chris, we WANT to put the mental pressure on the dog, we want a smart dog that can think their way out of a problem , not a tough dog that keeps taking a licking

And Yes I agree that many non collar trainers out there are not beating on their dogs , those that do don't last long and go thru dogs like toilet paper

One of the things that has made Clint a successful trainer of dogs at a young age is that he does accelerate their training and pushes mentally to see if they have the smarts to go on to AA stuff, He gets his answers sooner than most because he is asking the questions way before many would attempt to do so


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> That may be where we differ the most Chris, we WANT to put the mental pressure on the dog, we want a smart dog that can think their way out of a problem , not a tough dog that keeps taking a licking
> 
> And Yes I agree that many non collar trainers out there are not beating on their dogs , those that do don't last long and go thru dogs like toilet paper
> 
> One of the things that has made Clint a successful trainer of dogs at a young age is that he does accelerate their training and pushes mentally to see if they have the smarts to go on to AA stuff, He gets his answers sooner than most because he is asking the questions way before many would attempt to do so


Bon, this statement peaks my interest, considering the really young dogs successfully running AA stakes these days. Can you list the dogs Clint has run in the last 10 years and their placements? I can find Hiwood Brigadier, who is 6.5 and no AA placements, a derby 4th. Mirk & Nola are both retired, I think? Mirk 0 points, Nola 1 Open point. Watermark's Sister Kate had a Qual 3rd and a Derby 4th. EE's lovely dysfunctional search feature doesn't let me see anymore than that, so I'm curious what's happening with non-ecollar dogs these days, in FT. I think your brother is the only one I hear mention of running FT with noncollar training, so can you fill in the blanks please?

BTW, don't care who trains with or without collar, how one accomplishes their goals is their business. But curious as to current dogs running FT that are totally non-ecollar trained, given that to many of us, AA stakes are the highest form of retriever training.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> That may be where we differ the most Chris, we WANT to put the mental pressure on the dog, we want a smart dog that can think their way out of a problem , not a tough dog that keeps taking a licking
> 
> And Yes I agree that many non collar trainers out there are not beating on their dogs , those that do don't last long and go thru dogs like toilet paper
> 
> One of the things that has made Clint a successful trainer of dogs at a young age is that he does accelerate their training and pushes mentally to see if they have the smarts to go on to AA stuff, He gets his answers sooner than most because he is asking the questions way before many would attempt to do so


Thanks Bon,

I can only speak from my own personal experience. 

I believe the delayed timing indirect pressure I imposed on my previous retrievers resulted in a less polished performance and less drive and confidence than they could have had.

I'm trying to train with the thought process that the less pressure I have to use, the better. For me, that translates the the use of a modern program using an e-collar. For others it may not.

I totally acknowledge that there are folks out there training without an e collar that are having better results than I am. But I also know that Bus is running better today than he would be if I were still training Amish. 


Chris


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Bon, this statement peaks my interest, considering the really young dogs successfully running AA stakes these days. Can you list the dogs Clint has run in the last 10 years and their placements? I can find Hiwood Brigadier, who is 6.5 and no AA placements, a derby 4th. Mirk & Nola are both retired, I think? Mirk 0 points, Nola 1 Open point. Watermark's Sister Kate had a Qual 3rd and a Derby 4th. EE's lovely dysfunctional search feature doesn't let me see anymore than that, so I'm curious what's happening with non-ecollar dogs these days, in FT. I think your brother is the only one I hear mention of running FT with noncollar training, so can you fill in the blanks please?
> 
> BTW, don't care who trains with or without collar, how one accomplishes their goals is their business. But curious as to current dogs running FT that are totally non-ecollar trained, given that to many of us, AA stakes are the highest form of retriever training.


Nola won the Amateur at Eastern Idaho on '07, she won an Open in Canada with Chris LaCross as the handler along with an Open 4th, Chris then took her 9 series in the 09 Canadian National...

Kate was never campaigned past her derby and qual, think she ran two amateurs...Brig has run a handful of trials and jsut hasnt performed to expectations...

Now for the stuff that doesnt show on EE...Clint has 10 AA wins between 3 different dogs,qualified for 6 Nationals and has amost 80 AA points...Mirk, Nola,and Star (2) all won Qual stakes at age two


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Now for the stuff that doesnt show on EE...Clint has 10 AA wins between 3 different dogs,qualified for 6 Nationals and has amost 80 AA points...Mirk, Nola,and Star (2) all won Qual stakes at age two


When was that? When no one trained with collars?


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

In asking Bon how many have won WITHOUT e- collar training I think it only fair to also ask how many that use ecollar have won, as a percentage

I am guessing that 99% of field trialers train with collar. out of all those dogs trained how many have won titled etc?

betting that 80% + of those e collar trained dogs have not won or titled either.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> When was that? When no one trained with collars?


prehistoric times when dinosaurs were still on the earth, man was just walking upright , and Lanse was a young man


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

gdluck said:


> In asking Bon how many have won WITHOUT e- collar training I think it only fair to also ask how many that use ecollar have won, as a percentage
> 
> I am guessing that 99% of field trialers train with collar. out of all those dogs trained how many have won titled etc?
> 
> betting that 80% + of those e collar trained dogs have not won or titled either.


The only percentage that you cite that makes any sense to me is that 99% of field trialers use an ecollar in training.

This can only mean one of two things...

Either 99% of the field trialers are doing it wrong, or 1% are doing it wrong.

If training without a collar got results, don't you think those percentages would flip flop?

It's probably closer to 95% of dogs started out as trial dogs never title regardless of whether they are collar trained or not.


Next stat coming is that on average, chocolates title more than any other color.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

captainjack said:


> What is fantastic? *Can you name an FC or AFC that has titled in the last 10 years with out ever using an ecollar in training?*Doesn't mean you don't have a good trainer, but it also doesn't mean the dog can't be abused in training by someone that doesn't ever use an ecollar. The ecollar is a great tool and no more or less of a tool that can be use poorly than a lead and heeling stick.


Can't name one in the last 10 years, but I trained one to AFC without a collar. Got his title and ran a Nat'l Am in '95. I was a lot younger and thinner and was able to get around in the field better then. The dog was also a very easy dog to train. Ran hunt tests with him as well and he was a NAHRA GMHR too. The dog also hunted almost every day of the Alaska duck season for about 10 years. He knew the difference between trials and hunting and loved both. He also went on many big game hunts with me over the years up there. Grandson of Piper's Pacer on sires side and Ironwood Tarnation on dams side.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Bon, this statement peaks my interest, considering the really young dogs successfully running AA stakes these days. Can you list the dogs Clint has run in the last 10 years and their placements? I can find Hiwood Brigadier, who is 6.5 and no AA placements, a derby 4th. Mirk & Nola are both retired, I think? Mirk 0 points, Nola 1 Open point. Watermark's Sister Kate had a Qual 3rd and a Derby 4th. EE's lovely dysfunctional search feature doesn't let me see anymore than that, so I'm curious what's happening with non-ecollar dogs these days, in FT. I think your brother is the only one I hear mention of running FT with noncollar training, so can you fill in the blanks please?
> 
> BTW, don't care who trains with or without collar, how one accomplishes their goals is their business. But curious as to current dogs running FT that are totally non-ecollar trained, given that to many of us, AA stakes are the highest form of retriever training.


You have to remember that EE Express just came around in 2003 or 2004. Anything prior to that will not show up.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I was an Amish trainer right up until I got my current lab, who turns 6 at the end of the month. I finally decided to open my mind and try to use what I'd learned to that point, combined with what I could learn new, using some modern e-collar training material. I personally used Mike Lardy's material as the primary source of instructional information for this.
> 
> I trained a few Amish dogs to "Master Level" accomplishments without resorting to shooting the dogs, cattle prodding the dogs, etc. I know that some of my buddies and peers that I trained with (some of who are still Amish to this day) will find it unfair to be painted with that broad of a brush. Just because someone chooses to train without an e-collar, does not automatically mean they will use some other specific pain inflicting tool for negative reinforcement.
> 
> ...


Chris I agree To see the look on Tar's face as I march out!!!!!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

arklahunter said:


> I have had my pup at the trainer for about 7 weeks and have been told that she is doing quite well. One thing I was curious about is that the trainer said she does not use an e-collar unless it's necessary for a hard dog. I don't have a problem with that and wouldn't have a problem if she did. I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?



A bit unusual. Trainers these days primarily us the collar. A trainer who tells you they only us a e-collar on hard dogs undoubtedly has no clue how to train with a e-collar. Given that they probably have no clue how to train a dog without one either. Not likely a very competent dog trainer.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

This just me and maybe I'm a poor SOB but unless I plan to spend money on a LIFETIME of training fees, I want the work done in as fast and efficient a manner as possible, both for the sake of the dog and my wallet.

For that reason alone, if a trainer was to tell me they didn't employ the e collar in field work, I either wouldn't send them my dog or I would go get him or her back.

They may be very effective, but there is little to argue about the fact that they probably aren't the most efficient.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

I believe it is possible that the people I spoke with who had her train their dogs and were happy with the results may have all been lying to me. I guess I'll go pick her up tomorrow...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

huntinman said:


> You have to remember that EE Express just came around in 2003 or 2004. Anything prior to that will not show up.


Which is why I asked about the last 10 years, not earlier dogs that were run when ecollars were either not widely used nor nearly as sophisticated as collars and trainers today.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> Nola won the Amateur at Eastern Idaho on '07, she won an Open in Canada with Chris LaCross as the handler along with an Open 4th, Chris then took her 9 series in the 09 Canadian National...
> 
> Kate was never campaigned past her derby and qual, think she ran two amateurs...Brig has run a handful of trials and jsut hasnt performed to expectations...
> 
> Now for the stuff that doesnt show on EE...Clint has 10 AA wins between 3 different dogs,qualified for 6 Nationals and has amost 80 AA points...Mirk, Nola,and Star (2) all won Qual stakes at age two


I am so not trying to pick on Clint or disparage his accomplishments or training or anything else. What he did or does with his dogs, the satisfaction he gets from how he trains, that's all good for him, absolutely not taking anything away from him. I realize he did very well with his early dogs, way back in days of yore, lol, and I know that's where most of those 80 points came from, back when training non-ecollar was not out of the norm by any means. But from your comments, Bon, I thought maybe there were some young dogs currently running successfully and I guess you answered that, sort of.

Of course dogs can be trained to hunt and run HT and do a billion other things without an ecollar. But, IMO, if ecollars were banned here in the States, field trials would revert backwards as far as the technical levels of setups. Ecollars and training have become so sophisticated, dogs are becoming much more advanced in training at earlier ages than ever. I don't think non-ecollar retriever training, as far as finished competitive dogs anyway, has made the leaps that ecollar training has in the same timeframe, the evidence isn't there in titles and points, not that anyone has come up with to show me, anyway. I worked 4 dogs of varying levels on technical water today at hundreds of yards, multiple marks and blinds, what corrections were needed were simple, quick and clear to the dogs. Sans ecollar, I'd still be out there. It's a time-saving tool for me, same as my vehicle, ATV and remote-controlled wingers.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

arklahunter said:


> I believe it is possible that the people I spoke with who had her train their dogs and were happy with the results may have all been lying to me. I guess I'll go pick her up tomorrow...


Do what makes you happy and what meets your own personal needs. The only ones you really need to be happy are you and your dog. Nobody else.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

arklahunter said:


> I believe it is possible that the people I spoke with who had her train their dogs and were happy with the results may have all been lying to me. I guess I'll go pick her up tomorrow...


Please don't walk away angry or discontent(sp). Being open minded will help you in the long run. Whatever choice you make will make you a better man or women in your eyes. Try to keep level headed about this. It will help you and only you in making a descision. Sleep on it.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

arklahunter said:


> I believe it is possible that the people I spoke with who had her train their dogs and were happy with the results may have all been lying to me. I guess I'll go pick her up tomorrow...


If I would have written your words, it would have been with great sarcasm. But you didn't use any faces so I can't tell if you are being serious. But, re-read Breck's post #31. He is dead on in his analysis. This may be the first time I've agreed with anything he's said, but I agree with that.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Do what makes you happy and what meets your own personal needs. The only ones you really need to be happy are you and your dog. Nobody else.


ARKLAHUNTER: Chris is spot on. I think your post above was sarcastic ( I hate text only). You need to remember this is the internet it's like: The "Twilight Zone" The "Sixth Sense" The Fifth Dimension" "Cold Fission"

It is a "Parallel Universe" You don't really know who/what you're dealing with. Take it all with a grain (or two) of salt, glean what you can from it and move on. Enjoy RTF.

Adult beverages regards

Randy


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Rnd said:


> ARKLAHUNTER: Chris is spot on. I think your post above was sarcastic ( I hate text only). You need to remember this is the internet it's like: The "Twilight Zone" The "Sixth Sense" The Fifth Dimension" "Cold Fission"
> 
> It is a "Parallel Universe" You don't really know who/what you're dealing with. Take it all with a grain (or two) of salt, glean what you can from it and move on. Enjoy RTF.
> 
> ...


It was sarcastic... I have no intentions on taking my dog anywhere else. I was trying to make a point after reading some of the above posts. 

I just think it's a little absurd to make a judgement like the one above and call her incompetent without full knowledge. They have know idea about this trainer and they made the ascertian even after I mentioned that I was satisfied with the progress...

I am no idiot (of course, the above posters may dissagree) and have read several books some old and some new and not all of them mentioned using collars. What really drew me to the trainer was the passion she showed toward my goal of having a great hunting companion. I interviewed another trainer and after seeing his dog scream in pain after getting burnt I was a little put off.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

captainjack said:


> If I would have written your words, it would have been with great sarcasm. But you didn't use any faces so I can't tell if you are being serious. But, re-read Breck's post #31. He is dead on in his analysis. This may be the first time I've agreed with anything he's said, but I agree with that.


I don't agree with Breck. Way too little info on the trainer to make that kind of judgment call, just because they prefer not to use an ecollar unless the dog doesn't respond to her normal training program. If the OP is happy with her and his dog and doesn't care if he uses an ecollar or not, that's his business. This trainer is encouraging him to work with her and the pup on a regular basis, to learn how to work with his dog. What the OP needs to consider and figure out is how he hunts, will this trainer produce the type of dog he wants to the standard he requires and show him how to maintain that standard, will the trainer CC his dog for him if that's what he wants? The dog is going through OB and FF, trainer is obviously not against ecollars, maybe she's just cautious about her clients mis-using ecollars and finds her own method works for her clients, maybe she's a crappy trainer, maybe she feeds the dogs cookies and makes it work, I don't know, but not using an ecollar regularly for gundog training doesn't make her a suspect trainer in and of itself, anymore than a trainer using an ecollar makes them good.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

arklahunter said:


> I am no idiot (of course, the above posters may dissagree) and have read several books some old and some new and not all of them mentioned using collars. What really drew me to the trainer was the passion she showed toward my goal of having a great hunting companion. I interviewed another trainer and after seeing his dog scream in pain after getting burnt I was a little put off.


Well, seeing one dog scream is meaningless, overall, some dogs scream if you look at them wrong, real drama queens. An ecollar is not the only thing that will make a dog scream either, some non-ecollar trainers use pretty brutal methods. But if you're happy with your trainer, that's fine. Just don't think that ecollars automatically make dogs scream when used, or that a trainer is bad or brutal because a dog gets vocal.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

I agree and am aware e-collars when used effectively are not harsh and are probably more humain than other forms of correction. His dog was clearly in distress and I beleive he would have probably washed my dog out anyway since she is pretty soft. 

I really didn't know this was going to cause such a crap storm!!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

arklahunter said:


> It was sarcastic... I have no intentions on taking my dog anywhere else. I was trying to make a point after reading some of the above posts.
> 
> I just think it's a little absurd to make a judgement like the one above and call her incompetent without full knowledge. They have know idea about this trainer and they made the ascertian even after I mentioned that I was satisfied with the progress...
> 
> I am no idiot (of course, the above posters may dissagree) and have read several books some old and some new and not all of them mentioned using collars. What really drew me to the trainer was the passion she showed toward my goal of having a great hunting companion. I interviewed another trainer and after seeing his dog scream in pain after getting burnt I was a little put off.


I don't believe anyone was saying you were an idiot. I certainly did not read that out of the text. What I will state is that whoever you choose be sure it is what is best for you and your dog and your goals. And that the method the trainer uses you are comfortable with. Good for you interviewing a trainer and seeing what they practice. It is difficult for us to know in this forum what any trainer is like based on texted comments etc. and all we are saying is be sure of your choice. IMO

Originally Posted by arklahunter

I have had my pup at the trainer for about 7 weeks and have been told that she is doing quite well. One thing I was curious about is that the trainer said she does not use an e-collar unless it's necessary for a hard dog. I don't have a problem with that and wouldn't have a problem if she did. I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?

And did you not ask the question above about the necessity of the Ecollar? and was that unique today? There are many different answers and you just got some of them. It is your choice! IMO
Good luck to you!!!


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Breck said:


> A bit unusual. Trainers these days primarily us the collar. A trainer who tells you they only us a e-collar on hard dogs undoubtedly has no clue how to train with a e-collar. Given that they probably have no clue how to train a dog without one either. Not likely a very competent dog trainer.


Calling her incompetent is a little much...


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

arklahunter said:


> Calling her incompetent is a little much...


Not what I said. 
Based on your statement that she uses the collar on hard dogs only raised the question in my mind, is she a competent trainer? My statement was "not likely" and not that she actually was. Two different things.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Breck said:


> Not what I said.
> Based on your statement that she uses the collar on hard dogs only raised the question in my mind, is she a competent trainer? My statement was "not likely" and not that she actually was. Two different things.


Thanks for the clarification... I beleive she is competent from how my pup is doing.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I am no idiot (of course, the above posters may dissagree) and have read several books some old and some new and not all of them mentioned using collars. *What really drew me to the trainer was the passion she showed toward my goal of having a great hunting companion*. I interviewed another trainer and after seeing his dog scream in pain after getting burnt I was a little put off.


Be a little careful, some people are very good at talking to people but not so good at communicating with dogs. I would want to see her string of dogs, not just the top end but the middle of the roaders. How does she train the less talented? Does it work? Does she blame the dog for not learning? Truthfully, you judge a pro by the dogs he/she turns out. When I talk to one who is smooth, I stop listening and let their dogs speak for their competency.

Deep down, I can't help but feeling Breck is on to something.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Howdy arklahunter! You have, in my opinion, left out a critical piece of information when starting this discussion. You didn't say anything about what your goals for your trainer are. So many of the folks on this forum are interested in high performing competitive dogs that what they want their trainers to accomplish may be very different from what you are looking for. I hunt. No hunt tests (although I have just photographed two and they look like fun) and certainly no field-trials (nothing against field trials and it is impressive to see dogs perform that way, just way above anything I would ever need). I wouldn't need the level of training that many of the folks here want. I'm completely satisfied with a dog that can competently handle double or triple marks out to 150 yds or so and will handle to blinds to maybe 200, has a good sit on whistle, and a strong recall so that if he is getting too far out he will come back in. That's a much lower standard than many on this forum want, and I can tell you that that can be accomplished without using the e-collar or any of the more brutal methods discussed here as I have trained the three labs I have had over the last 32 years to that standard by myself. So to some extent, again, I think that an important part of the question is "what are your goals and expectations?"


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Breck said:


> A trainer who tells you they only us a e-collar on hard dogs undoubtedly has no clue how to train with a e-collar.


I'm new to the whole dog training thing, but based on what I have learned this statement by the trainer would have given me pause as well.

It sounds like she may have picked up on your apprehension about the collar (I'm wondering if you told her the story about the screaming dog first) and sort of told you what you wanted to hear - and I don't mean that in a bad way. 

Realize (as I am sure you do) that there are absolutely some adverse consequences with dog training, starting with FF and the heeling stick, that will not make your dog very happy. My dog will scream bloody murder when I pinch his ear, and I'd rather be beaten with a stick myself than have to do that, but it is for his good.

If she really meant what she said about only using collars on hard dogs, it would appear that, without knowing a whole lot more, she thinks collars are primarily punishment. I did too before I had a couple really good dog people educate me. I wouldn't say that would necessarily make her incompetent, but I would have a lot of questions before I left my dog there.

Also, there seems to be little question that the collar is the most efficient way to train a dog, so you do the math when (I assume) you are paying by the month.

All that said, the post above about doing what you feel is right for your dog is the best advice you got in this whole thread. You are the one who will have to live with the dog, so do what you think is best.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Breck said:


> A bit unusual. Trainers these days primarily us the collar. A trainer who tells you they only us a e-collar on hard dogs undoubtedly has no clue how to train with a e-collar. Given that they probably have no clue how to train a dog without one either. Not likely a very competent dog trainer.


The logic here is off. 

You're saying that 2 + 3 = 4. You're saying 1) The person doesn't know how to train with an e-collar, and 2) If a person doesn't know how to train with an e-collar, they don't know how to train dogs any other way.

Then how did so many dogs get trained before the advent of the e-collar. How do so many dog earn Championship titles in Obedience and Agility and Field Trials in Britain without an e-collar?

Jennifer


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

arklahunter said:


> I agree and am aware e-collars when used effectively are not harsh and are probably more humain than other forms of correction. His dog was clearly in distress and I beleive he would have probably washed my dog out anyway since she is pretty soft.
> 
> I really didn't know this was going to cause such a crap storm!!!


Really!!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> I'm new to the whole dog training thing, but based on what I have learned this statement by the trainer would have given me pause as well.
> 
> It sounds like she may have picked up on your apprehension about the collar (I'm wondering if you told her the story about the screaming dog first) and sort of told you what you wanted to hear - and I don't mean that in a bad way.
> 
> ...


Little correction: The collar is not the most efficient way to train your dog, but the collar is a tool to assist you in training your dog! I think if we describe the collar as an adjunct in your training program rather than the only way to train your dog is a better statement. IMHO If you only use the collar, (picky and semantics I know) which I hope one would not, that is not really good training!! And much of collar use is IP rather than a burn and the dog making a squeel for the wrong action. The dog has to understand the concept first so train first.


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

I agree totally with JHENION post #51.....many great dogs achieved championship titles before the e-collar came along, it has become a tool to turn too many dogs into champions. Many these pros are incapable of training without the collar which includes force fetch and in my opinion, has drastically downgraded the sport. If one has a good dog, then time and patience can produce a top field dog without collar and ff. 
To be a true trainer of dogs for field trials etc, you should be able to produce champions without the collar and ff.
I don't believe anyone can argue with that?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Dooley said:


> I agree totally with JHENION post #51.....many great dogs achieved championship titles before the e-collar came along, it has become a tool to turn too many dogs into champions. Many these pros are incapable of training without the collar which includes force fetch and in my opinion, has drastically downgraded the sport. If one has a good dog, then time and patience can produce a top field dog without collar and ff.
> To be a true trainer of dogs for field trials etc, you should be able to produce champions without the collar and ff.
> I don't believe anyone can argue with that?


Drastically downgraded the sport and too many champions, OMG, ROTFLMAO, now this was one Friday funny, wooooo boy. Thank you so much for the humor.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Jhenion said:


> Then how did so many dogs get trained before the advent of the e-collar. *How do so many dog earn Championship titles in Obedience and Agility and Field Trials in Britain without an e-collar?*Jennifer


Those are different venues completely with no comparison to Field Trials. The dog from 30 years ago trained before e-collars were trained against others without e-collars at much shorter distances. 



> If one has a good dog, then time and patience can produce a top field dog without collar and ff.


What is a "top" field dog? Are you saying FC? Have you ever even watched an Open or Amateur? How do you expect to train dogs on blinds at those distances?


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Dooley said:


> I agree totally with JHENION post #51.....many great dogs achieved championship titles before the e-collar came along, it has become a tool to turn too many dogs into champions. Many these pros are incapable of training without the collar which includes force fetch and in my opinion, has drastically downgraded the sport. If one has a good dog, then time and patience can produce a top field dog without collar and ff.
> To be a true trainer of dogs for field trials etc, you should be able to produce champions without the collar and ff.
> I don't believe anyone can argue with that?


That is laughable.

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Jhenion said:


> The logic here is off.
> 
> You're saying that 2 + 3 = 4. You're saying 1) The person doesn't know how to train with an e-collar, and 2) If a person doesn't know how to train with an e-collar, they don't know how to train dogs any other way.
> 
> ...


Do you even KNOW the difference between British Field Trials and American Field Trials?

Have you ever in the flesh SEEN an American Field Trial?

WRL


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I think the very opposite of what some seem to think has actually happened.
Variable collars and good training programs have allowed for MORE sensitive dogs to succeed. Not less. More females too.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Dooley said:


> I agree totally with JHENION post #51.....many great dogs achieved championship titles before the e-collar came along, it has become a tool to turn too many dogs into champions. Many these pros are incapable of training without the collar which includes force fetch and in my opinion, has drastically downgraded the sport. If one has a good dog, then time and patience can produce a top field dog without collar and ff.
> To be a true trainer of dogs for field trials etc, you should be able to produce champions without the collar and ff.
> I don't believe anyone can argue with that?


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

Ha Ha....I think I hit the nail on the head......I've studied the difference between the British and American field trials. There is a lot to be learned from the British and how they train there dogs.
And yes, I have been to both types of trials. Funny how people react to true facts,isn't it?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Dooley said:


> Ha Ha....I think I hit the nail on the head......I've studied the difference between the British and American field trials. There is a lot to be learned from the British and how they train there dogs.
> And yes, I have been to both types of trials. Funny how people react to true facts,isn't it?


Then explain how different they are and how you could train for both. Give US the facts.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Dooley said:


> Ha Ha....I think I hit the nail on the head......I've studied the difference between the British and American field trials. There is a lot to be learned from the British and how they train there dogs.
> And yes, I have been to both types of trials. Funny how people react to true facts,isn't it?


True facts based on your SKEWED view?

British FTs and American FTS are so far apart in what is required of the dogs, its a shame they are both called FTs.

Football to some is soccer to others.......

WRL


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Dooley said:


> Ha Ha....I think I hit the nail on the head......I've studied the difference between the British and American field trials. There is a lot to be learned from the British and how they train there dogs.
> And yes, I have been to both types of trials. Funny how people react to true facts,isn't it?


Hahahaha, sounds like another case of sour grapes, doesn't like ecollars but can't train to the level to compete successfully without an ecollar, so dumb down American FT for him/her please. Because that's the only logic that comes out of your kind of thought process. Or maybe you do have an FC AFC you've trained sans collar? Please share a little about your dogs and what you run with them.


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## sandyg (Feb 10, 2010)

Dooley said:


> Ha Ha....I think I hit the nail on the head......I've studied the difference between the British and American field trials. There is a lot to be learned from the British and how they train there dogs.
> And yes, I have been to both types of trials. Funny how people react to true facts,isn't it?


Right. Like how NOT to prepare meals, how NOT to deal with political correctness, how NOT to deal with self-defense, how NOT to deal with immigration, how NOT to elect corrupt politicians (oh wait, this one might be ours...)


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Hahahaha, sounds like another case of sour grapes, doesn't like ecollars but can't train to the level to compete successfully without an ecollar, so dumb down American FT for him/her please. Because that's the only logic that comes out of your kind of thought process. Or maybe you do have an FC AFC you've trained sans collar? Please share a little about your dogs and what you run with them.


Don't bother Rainmaker......

The ridiculousness of Dooley's statements stand on their own.

You can't reason with crazy and you can't fix stupid.

WRL


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

WRL said:


> Don't bother Rainmaker......
> 
> The ridiculousness of Dooley's statements stand on their own.
> 
> ...


Hey NOW!!

I been told that with a reasonable amount of time,, I could be fixed!

Gooser


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> I don't agree with Breck. Way too little info on the trainer to make that kind of judgment call, just because they prefer not to use an ecollar unless the dog doesn't respond to her normal training program. If the OP is happy with her and his dog and doesn't care if he uses an ecollar or not, that's his business. This trainer is encouraging him to work with her and the pup on a regular basis, to learn how to work with his dog. What the OP needs to consider and figure out is how he hunts, will this trainer produce the type of dog he wants to the standard he requires and show him how to maintain that standard, will the trainer CC his dog for him if that's what he wants? The dog is going through OB and FF, trainer is obviously not against ecollars, maybe she's just cautious about her clients mis-using ecollars and finds her own method works for her clients, maybe she's a crappy trainer, maybe she feeds the dogs cookies and makes it work, I don't know, but not using an ecollar regularly for gundog training doesn't make her a suspect trainer in and of itself, anymore than a trainer using an ecollar makes them good.


Very good post. Hard to judge a trainer(and unfair) based upon the little knowledge (not from horse's mouth ) that we got about her. Lets let the OP decide-its his dog and his $$.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Dooley said:


> Ha Ha....I think I hit the nail on the head......I've studied the difference between the British and American field trials. There is a lot to be learned from the British and how they train there dogs.
> And yes, I have been to both types of trials. Funny how people react to true facts,isn't it?


I am having a hard time with words on this. What is your point? What is your motivated? What is it that you are trying to gain? I'm dumbfounded by your response. Its like you are shooting from the hip and expect no response or is that what you are expecting......????


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> The logic here is off.
> 
> You're saying that 2 + 3 = 4. You're saying 1) The person doesn't know how to train with an e-collar, and 2) If a person doesn't know how to train with an e-collar, they don't know how to train dogs any other way.
> 
> ...



Maybe you should read James Lamb Free's book on Training Your Retriever!!!! Alot of what is stated in the book I have trained my dog by...but there is a lot in there I would not do!!!
It is very old school!! The collar is a tool in your training program. I rarely use the collar and it is not on him when I train. But he is CC and knows what it is about. If used properly the collar is one of the tools in your training program. Not the be all and end all. Yes there have been many dogs that have been trained with out the collar or without being FF and many more dogs will be trained that way. It is totally ones preference and how they feel they want their dog to be trained. IMHO


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm finished with this post......tired of the American crap.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Dooley said:


> I'm finished with this post......tired of the American crap.



LOL...OK...Go have a beer than.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Hey NOW!!
> 
> I been told that with a reasonable amount of time,, I could be fixed!
> 
> Gooser


Define reasonable!!!!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Maybe you should read James Lamb Free's book on Training Your Retriever!!!! Alot of what is stated in the book I have trained my dog by...but there is a lot in there I would not do!!!
> It is very old school!! The collar is a tool in your training program. I rarely use the collar and it is not on him when I train. But he is CC and knows what it is about. If used properly the collar is one of the tools in your training program. Not the be all and end all. Yes there have been many dogs that have been trained with out the collar or without being FF and many more dogs will be trained that way. It is totally ones preference and how they feel they want their dog to be trained. IMHO


I wish you guys weren't so defensive. I wasn't saying that people shouldn't use the collar to train with, (if they have a clue, which a lot don't) I wasn't saying it's a bad thing. I'm saying that it's illogical to say that because someone doesn't train with the collar that they don't know how to train dogs. Obviously, you can train a dog without the collar. And Nancy, obviously the sports I mentioned are all different. The OP didn't say he was training for FT.My point was that you CAN train a dog to hunt, be a champ obedience trial winner and a champ agility winner etc etc without the collar. Just because you don't use the collar doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing in training dogs.

Jennifer


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> I wish you guys weren't so defensive. I wasn't saying that people shouldn't use the collar to train with, (if they have a clue, which a lot don't) I wasn't saying it's a bad thing. I'm saying that it's illogical to say that because someone doesn't train with the collar that they don't know how to train dogs. Obviously, you can train a dog without the collar. And Nancy, obviously the sports I mentioned are all different. The OP didn't say he was training for FT.My point was that you CAN train a dog to hunt, be a champ obedience trial winner and a champ agility winner etc etc without the collar. Just because you don't use the collar doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing in training dogs.
> 
> Jennifer


Yes and I agree you can train with out a collar. Better to have all the tools available when training. I would not use a collar to train obedience, drills or agility! No need - get close and personal!!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer, I would agree with you here as I know many who don't touch an e collar and train dogs for all kinds of actual work, however, when someone says "I use the collar on hard dogs only" you HAVE to question that person's view of the tool and when you reach the answer you should become suspicious.

The only logic I can attach to the "hard dogs" statement is that she means "tough" or "hard headed" or some other adjective that means, in her view, they need a more aversive correction than most dogs, at which point she switches to the e-collar.

The view of the collar as a more aversive tool than anything else in the box is clearly misguided and calls into question the skill set, philosophy and viewpoint of the trainer, in the eyes of those who view the collar as an effective tool, simply due to the (ever critical) correct timing it facilitates at long distances. The view of the collar as a bigger stick was quite prevelent with uneducated pet dog obedience clients when I was briefly in that business, and it just leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many. 

The OP obviously has some aversion to the collar, saying he was "put off" by one trainer's use of it, and he's looking for a hunting companion so he may very well be satisfied with the results. It's all about the expectations and I think when it comes to pros it's all about matching the client and the dog to the person to make everyone happy. After all, the OP and anyone else using a pro is really just buying personal satisfaction through the training of thier dog. Most of us aren't investing money in training with a goal of making money later.

My question to the OP is...

How are you going to feel when the trainer decides your dog needs the e collar, after seeing what you've seen and feeling the way you did? Did you make an agreement with her that she won't use one without your persmission? If not what have you really bought yourself?


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

DarrinGreene said:


> question to the OP is...
> 
> How are you going to feel when the trainer decides your dog needs the e collar, after seeing what you've seen and feeling the way you did? Did you make an agreement with her that she won't use one without your persmission? If not what have you really bought yourself?


Darrin,

I mentioned in my first post that I am quite indifferent to the use of the collar. I was stating when I visited "other trainer" that I was a little put off by the reaction of the dog by that level of stimulation. I was under the impression that the level of stimulation for the proper use of the e-collar should only be high enough for the dog to notice it, but not high enough to put the dog in destress. In "my opinion" he may as well been whipping the dog. I'll say that I am not experienced enough to give my opinion on the e-collar, only that I thought that I didn't want him to do that to my dog... (of course, some may argue that level of stimulation may be adequate for that dog, but to me it seemed a litte much)

There was no aggreement with the trainer to not use or use the e-collar. She went through the training regiment with me before I decided and it all sounded similar to what I have read, sans collar. She told me her goals with the dog and I was happy with that.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ark, Good luck with it, of course. We buy and keep these great animals for our enjoyment and thier enrichment, and it sounds like you are on a path that suits you. You have to trust whomever you gave your girl too, and it sounds like you do, so you are where you should be.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I was under the impression that the level of stimulation for the proper use of the e-collar should only be high enough for the dog to notice it, but not high enough to put the dog in destress.


No, you have to change the dog's behavior. Some dogs will scream and holler with a small amount of electricity, but not change what they do. Others will stay silent to large amounts of electricity, and may or may not change what they're doing. What we want is the dog to change it's behavior to what we're training him to do. Dogs are different and what will change the behavior of one dog may be way overdoing it for another dog and not be enough for a third dog.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ark

You started this thread askin about how unique a Pro trainer was that didnt use the collar.

You later stated sarcastically that you were gonna pull your dog from her and take her home.

You then later stated your views on the E-Collar. I think (MYOPINION) those views you stated are views typical of folks that dont have an education of proper user or technique of collar use.

You picked a Hot Button topic to discuss on Dog training boards... You actuallly have recieved very Civil replies.

What I believe is that you have made up your mind about who is going to train your dog.. You Like the Pro,, and you Like the fact She doesnt use a collar. 
You also liked the references She gave as far as her success at her trade.

Whats More to question???

Sit back,, enjoy your dogs progress and learn...

Gooser


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