# Price of a Pup: Sire: $1,500 to 2,000



## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

What should the price of a puppy be when the sire's stud fee is $1,500 to 2,000. How much is too much and what's too little? A breeder wouldn't want to make the sire look bad by reducing price on an accomplished sires' pups ~ would she? I have been a breeder since 1999 and until 2008 had basically utilized an in house stud dog, with >our great gun dogs, full of potential for anything< selling for anywhere from $500 to $800 mostly we were at $500...litters often presold, and mainly 'out the door' by 8 weeks. Now we are "IN THE GAME" and we're utilizing current performers. The dogs that we retain are being trained and run in Hunting Tests. But the stud fees have thrown me for a loop. What's the standard?


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

I thought I saw some previous ads on this litter where you didn't even post a price (TBD)

Quite frankly, I am surprised at the number of quality litters still being bred with the state of the economy. I only bred one or two litters per year, however, my rule of thumb for my breeding program is to have reservations in hand for 50% of an average size litter before breeding (5-6 deposits).

(Suspect your really not looking for an answer, just creative marketing to advertise your litters on the regular forum)


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

A lot of the pricing depends on the dam. "In general" price per puppy should be approximately what the stud fee is if he is bred to a strong bitch.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

I think the puppy price should reflect the accomplishments of both parents, and is not based on the stud fee. If you breed a non-titled female with not much pedigree to a $2000 stud, they are still $800 or less pups IMO. To price the pups at more than $1000 you need an excellent pedigree on the bitch, a minimum of MH or QAA, and possibly all-age points bred to a titled male. A person can buy a pup with FC AFC sire and FC AFC dam for around $3k. I would happily pay $1k more for an excellent pedigree on both sides than to purchase a lesser pedigree for $2k.

There have been excellent pedigrees on both sire and dam on this board's classifieds that have sold for under $2,000. These are titled sires bred to dams with all-age points, plus MH and/or QAA.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

it would be interesting to see some of the golden retriever people weigh in on this. *Pet quality* golden puppies in this area go for about $1200.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

overpriced


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2010)

There's no price that's based on the sire and dam alone. part of it is YOU, who you know, who's seen your bitch, etc. etc. Someone may have a litter just like yours and sell them for $1700 because they have a better network. So you just have to guestimate a price based on what's out there and adjust accordingly if necessary.

I also can't believe people are still breeding puppies in this economy...


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

frontier said:


> I thought I saw some previous ads on this litter where you didn't even post a price (TBD)
> 
> Quite frankly, I am surprised at the number of quality litters still being bred with the state of the economy. I only bred one or two litters per year, however, my rule of thumb for my breeding program is to have reservations in hand for 50% of an average size litter before breeding (5-6 deposits).
> 
> (Suspect your really not looking for an answer, just creative marketing to advertise your litters on the regular forum)


Your suspicion is wrong. I was wanting to talk about exactly what I posted. This litter has only 4 males in it. 2 were spoken for.


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

Kristie Wilder said:


> There's no price that's based on the sire and dam alone. part of it is YOU, who you know, who's seen your bitch, etc. etc. Someone may have a litter just like yours and sell them for $1700 because they have a better network. So you just have to guestimate a price based on what's out there and adjust accordingly if necessary.
> 
> I also can't believe people are still breeding puppies in this economy...


Thank you, your main comments are much appreciated. The economy is horrible, I know. However, this particular breeding had 2 on board from the beginning...with a dam who had 2 pups in her last litter. Myself and my sister were both 'committed' to female pups (sire and dam are both 9+), so economics had nothing to do with our motivation for the breeding, nor do any of my litters. Anyway, we had all males - and a small litter as expected. Why is it when a thread is started on this site is always goes to different subject matter. I appreciate the comments about what kind of a price is given to a litter according to it's stud fee. THAT was what I was interested in discussing. Maybe the bad economy is the reason why folks start the bashings...frustrated and in need of an outlet...try a pillow on your couch.
Please don't post on this thread unless you've read the first comment, then stick to the subject. Most folks on here do breed a litter to continue their lines and I thought it would be helpful to discuss.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

price= what the market will bear
In response to the OP's question, I've seen it more typically the other way around, the stud fee is based on the price of a puppy, not the puppy price based on the price of the stud fee.




ripline said:


> overpriced


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> A person can buy a pup with FC AFC sire and FC AFC dam for around $3k.


$3,000 for a FC AFC x FC AFC would be a bargain in my book.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> price= what the market will bear
> In response to the OP's question, I've seen it more typically the other way around, the stud fee is based on the price of a puppy, not the puppy price based on the price of the stud fee.


 
I have never seen a stud fee contengent on the price of a puppy. Typically, I see stud fees based on the males accomplishments, pedigree, health clearances, etc. Typically the hot dogs of the year are CY high point dogs, NFC, NAFC, CNFC and CNAFC. I think a lot of people pay attention to the letters in front of a sire's name rather than taking the time to know the traits of the sire.

I still think the pup price (with a strong female) closely mirrors the stud fee.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

junfan68 said:


> $3,000 for a FC AFC x FC AFC would be a bargain in my book.


Is this regardless of what the dogs bring to the table?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> $3,000 for a FC AFC x FC AFC would be a bargain in my book.


me too, I wouldn't sell a puppy from my FC-AFC bitch that cheap


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## Tstreg (Dec 28, 2005)

I consider all factors before purchasing a pup. Sires/dames accomplishments. Health clearances, looks, traits good/bad. Then I determine based on that if I want one from a particular litter and what I'm willing to pay based on the above. If they are overpriced in MY opinion I move on. A FC/AFC bred to a FC/AFC is simply going to be out of my price range, thats reality. I am not looking for the next NFC, just a good hunting companion to play the games with and sit next to the fireplace. However the more "aces" I can put in my hand the better.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> Is this regardless of what the dogs bring to the table?


A FC/AFC bitch counts as bringing something to the table IMHO.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> I've seen it more typically the other way around, the stud fee is based on the price of a puppy


I would never in a million years breed to a stud dog whose fee was on a sliding scale depending on the price of our pups. Why should a stud dog owner benefit from a higher fee due to the countless hours *I* have spent building up my network?

No way, no how. But ask me how I really feel about it. ;-)


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> A FC/AFC bitch counts as bringing something to the table IMHO.


change that from "something" to LOTS, she is in theory 50% of their genetic component and 100% of their environmental component minus what the owner supplies, if like begets like (as it seems to) choose the bitch not the stud, good producing bitches have good puppies from a variety of sires


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

EdA said:


> change that from "something" to LOTS, she is in theory 50% of their genetic component and 100% of their environmental component minus what the owner supplies, if like begets like (as it seems to) choose the bitch not the stud, good producing bitches have good puppies from a variety of sires


Exactly! Title those girl dogs!  Makes me nuts that lots of people breed females on pedigree alone but insist on titles for the studs. What if a female has great breeding and couldn't find a duck if it was dropped next to her? Wouldn't want one of those pups...


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## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

EdA said:


> change that from "something" to LOTS, she is in theory 50% of their genetic component and 100% of their environmental component minus what the owner supplies, if like begets like (as it seems to) choose the bitch not the stud, good producing bitches have good puppies from a variety of sires


X2

In theory it's actually slightly more than 50% when you consider the cytoplasm (IE mitochodria are inherited from mom and they have DNA too). Maternal effects (Genetic Maternal and Mom x Environment) are huge and often discounted way too much. A good repeat breeding to a proven bitch owned by a good owner is hard to beat.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

EdA said:


> me too, I wouldn't sell a puppy from my FC-AFC bitch that cheap


They've gone for much cheaper and I have one in my kennel. Out of an FC bitch. The breeder was totally out of the loop.

It's about networking and reputation. It's not on titles or pedigree alone though I would take a good pedigree before titles and no pedigree. But anyway...

I know my market and that's what I cater to. I think that's how you base your price. I have no trouble selling my puppies and the litter that was just born today is half sold and will probably be totally sold by this time next week.

Using the stud fee as a gauge for puppy price is very old fashioned.

Angie


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Angie B said:


> They've gone for much cheaper and I have one in my kennel. Out of an FC bitch. The owner was totally out of the loop.
> 
> It's about networking and reputation. It's not on titles or pedigree alone though I would take a good pedigree before titles and no pedigree. But anyway...
> 
> ...


Angie, you are very "PC" today. I'll guess I am the "bad cop" today, I'll blame it on too much turkey and carbs over the holidays... I agree totally..you have to know your market and nitch...


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

frontier said:


> Angie, you are very "PC" today. I'll guess I am the "bad cop" today, I'll blame it on too much turkey and carbs over the holidays... I agree totally..you have to know your market and nitch..


Ohhhhhh I just like to launch a grenade in the sewing circle every now and then. :razz:

Angie


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Angie B said:


> They've gone for much cheaper and I have one in my kennel. Out of an FC bitch. The owner was totally out of the loop.
> 
> It's about networking and reputation. It's not on titles or pedigree alone though I would take a good pedigree before titles and no pedigree. But anyway...
> 
> ...


Should I have bought more?


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2010)

BWCA Labs Margo Penke said:


> (snip)THAT was what I was interested in discussing. Maybe the bad economy is the reason why folks start the bashings...frustrated and in need of an outlet...try a pillow on your couch.
> Please don't post on this thread unless you've read the first comment, then stick to the subject.(snip)


aw, c'mon Margo, you're in the wrong place if you're dictating a rule that people must stick with the discussion and not comment otherwise. 

I was simply agreeing with a previous poster -- not making a commentary on YOUR choice to have a litter at this time.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Pet quality Goldens = $100 here
FT/HT Goldens = $4-600

Pet quality "red" labs = $1000-1500 without all of the clearances (go figure)
Other colors = free to $800 depending on breeding and clearances 

FC/AFC sire /HT or guiding hunt females = $600-1000 depending on pedigree, clearances, and females titles, plus color. 

HT/HT titled litters = $300-600 (if black males and last couple of pups, they go for $200-250 quite often)

These are from the area in and around Kansas City, NE, KS.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

firehouselabs said:


> Pet quality Goldens = $100 here
> FT/HT Goldens = $4-600
> 
> Pet quality "red" labs = $1000-1500 without all of the clearances (go figure)
> ...


What source did you use to compile your statistical averages on pricing (RTF, entry express, gundogsonline, etc.) Just curious


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

firehouselabs said:


> Pet quality Goldens = $100 here
> FT/HT Goldens = $4-600
> 
> Pet quality "red" labs = $1000-1500 without all of the clearances (go figure)
> ...


Are you serious about the Golden prices? On the east coast, a pet quality Golden from a quality breeder (clearances way back, good rep) will go for around $1000. Performance goldens go higher. Again this assumes a breeding with demonstrated performance & clearances several generations back.

I have been in Goldens for almost 20 years. I have not paid less than $1000 for a HT/FT line golden since 1992 (and that was in Texas).


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> Should I have bought more?


That's real funny... 

Though I am getting a 5 month old female out of a brother to your puppies mother and a female that is a litter mate to one of the most intelligent dogs I ever trained.

Very cool!!

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

alynn said:


> Are you serious about the Golden prices? On the east coast, a pet quality Golden from a quality breeder (clearances way back, good rep) will go for around $1000. Performance goldens go higher. Again this assumes a breeding with demonstrated performance & clearances several generations back.
> 
> I have been in Goldens for almost 20 years. I have not paid less than $1000 for a HT/FT line golden since 1992 (and that was in Texas).


Again it's all about the market your catering to...

Angie


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

Angie B said:


> Again it's all about the market your catering to...
> 
> Angie


But if you are doing the clearances (at least for Goldens) that you need to do to be ethical you cannot sell a dog for $100 without taking a massive loss. Why would you bother breeding?? That's not the market, that's just math.

For Goldens, both parents need hips, elbows, eyes (every year) heart, PRA . . . Ethical breeders clear heart and eyes on pups before they go home. If the litter is not PRA clear by parentage they do that test too . . . That's not counting any time/training for a performance dog.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

alynn said:


> But if you are doing the clearances (at least for Goldens) that you need to do to be ethical you cannot sell a dog for $100 without taking a massive loss. Why would you bother breeding?? That's not the market, that's just math.
> 
> For Goldens, both parents need hips, elbows, eyes (every year) heart, PRA . . . Ethical breeders clear heart and eyes on pups before they go home. If the litter is not PRA clear by parentage they do that test too . . . That's not counting any time/training for a performance dog.


I agree totally... But people still do it. Can't figure it out. 

I personally would never breed for that market. 

Angie


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

No one can sell a pet quality golden for that price unless they are a BYB not bothering with clearances, and quite possibly, not with papers either.
Clearances alone on a golden cost about $700, times 2 parents. By the time you take the puppies to a vet a couple of times before sending them home, register the litter with AKC and UKC, you're selling them at a loss.
Of course, we may define "pet quality" differently. I use the expression to indicate a puppy from a well bred litter, by a reputable breeder, that is not believed to be of conformation or performance quality.
If those $100 pet quality goldens are coming from reputable breeders with quality stock I should be buying them there and reselling them here. 




firehouselabs said:


> Pet quality Goldens = $100 here
> FT/HT Goldens = $4-600
> 
> Pet quality "red" labs = $1000-1500 without all of the clearances (go figure)
> ...


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> Should I have bought more?


See post 21. I fixed it.....

Angie


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

alynn said:


> . Ethical breeders clear heart and eyes on pups before they go home. If the litter is not PRA clear by parentage they do that test too


There are _many_ ethical breeders who do not do these tests before pups go to their new homes. If one parent is a prcd-PRA Carrier, the ethical breeder informs all prospective buyers up front but in no way is responsible for testing the whole litter as long as one parent is Normal/Clear.

We had a litter out of Carrier when the prcd-PRA test first came out. I thought the "ethical" thing to do was to test the whole litter. Over a thousand dollars in testing later, none of the pups ended up going to breeding homes so that was a total waste. :-x Live and learn.

BTW, breeders can easily get $1400 for pet puppies here (Goldens) if not more. That's California for ya.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I've been watching your posts on subjects like these since my "elbow" thread.............

john


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

john fallon said:


> I've been watching your posts on subjects like these since my "elbow" thread.............
> 
> john


That explains it. I was wondering why I was getting that creepy feeling as if I was being watched.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Sorry it took so long to reply, just got home from work. The sources for prices came from Internet ads for newspapers, actual newpapers, websites, friends who have litters for sale, online classifieds, etc...
Pam Haar has some great FT lines and she struggles to sell her pups for $500 and most go to pet homes. Pet goldens on newspapers for $100 or less,especially for older pups.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

firehouselabs said:


> Pet goldens on newspapers for $100 or less,especially for older pups.


Sorry but these aren't comparable to any of the litter "types" being discussed on this thread.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

P.S I never said that all the breeders were ethical. In fact I stated that some did not have all/any clearances.

Everyones definition of caliber is different....plus we were discussing PET QUALITY goldens which do fall in the category of BYB types, hunters wanting one litter of pups, 4-H project type, etc... 
Goldens just don't sell well in this area for some reason. Pet people don't want the hair and they seem to realize that it is hard to find a healthy byb pup, HT people don't want the hair and would rather have a lab


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Why is it when a thread is started on this site is always goes to different subject matter


That's the RTF law of GDG first hypothesized by Dr Ed and subsequentially confirmed and confirmed and confirmed and confirmed.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> That explains it. I was wondering why I was getting that creepy feeling as if I was being watched.


Now you know.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

firehouselabs said:


> we were discussing PET QUALITY goldens which do fall in the category of BYB types


What is with the generalizations?  There are plenty of pet quality Goldens bred by reputable folks. How can you possibly say that because they're not bred for performance this somehow suggests they fall into the BYB category? Just because you thumb through the newspaper and find some $100 pups doesn't mean that is a reflection of the entire market there.

I can guarantee that the breeders producing the pet quality pups that sell for $1400 here are not listing their litters in the newspaper.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> I can guarantee that the breeders producing the* pet quality pups that sell for $1400 *here are not listing their litters in the newspaper.


.....what does the term "pet quality" mean in your post above?


john


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

firehouselabs said:


> Pam Haar has some great FT lines and she struggles to sell her pups for $500 and most go to pet homes.


Raina, I know it seems like I'm picking on you but as you can tell , I do not like generalizations or when folks take everything out of context. 

I checked k9data which is our Golden database that includes thousands and thousands of pedigrees and there is not one single Golden listed with Pam Haar as the breeder. Pam may be a great gal, but obviously she does not have a market for her pups and thus the $500 price. That does not mean there are not breeders in your area who do not fetch (no pun intended) a higher price for their pups.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> I can guarantee that the breeders producing the pet quality pups that sell for $1400 here are not listing their litters in the newspaper.



That's funny right there, I don't care who you are!

FWIW, all my dogs are pets!


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

john fallon said:


> .....what does the term "pet quality" mean in your post above?
> 
> 
> john


Good question because obviously there is a discrepancy as to how people interpret this term.

Both parents generally have the "big four" clearances for our breed--hips, elbows, eyes, heart--as do generations behind them. They are not bred with performance sports in mind, but more often to produce pups with good temperaments to serve as family companions.

Also, conformation breeders will sort a litter out as to pups that look like potential conformation competitors and the ones that don't fit the bill are said to be "pet quality."


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Good question because obviously there is a discrepancy as to how people interpret this term.
> 
> Both parents generally have the "big four" clearances for our breed--hips, elbows, eyes, heart--as do generations behind them. They are not bred with performance sports in mind, but more often to produce pups with good temperaments to serve as family companions.
> 
> Also, conformation breeders will sort a litter out as to pups that look like potential conformation competitors and the ones that don't fit the bill are said to be "pet quality."


When a pup has a "clearance" in one of the "big four" what does that mean ?

john


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

BWCA Labs Margo Penke said:


> Please don't post on this thread unless you've read the first comment, then stick to the subject. Most folks on here do breed a litter to continue their lines and I thought it would be helpful to discuss.


That went well didn't it?


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2010)

john fallon said:


> When a pup has a "clearance" in one of the "big four" what does that mean ?
> 
> john


Having another rocket scientist moment there, John?

OFA Hips
OFA Elbows
CERF Eyes
Heart cleared by board certified cardiologist


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Having another rocket scientist moment there, John?
> 
> OFA Hips
> OFA Elbows
> ...


For those of us who are a little dense, With regard to the big four even with the above there are of course no guarantees....... or are there ?.

If there are , what would they typically cover?

john


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Angie B said:


> They've gone for much cheaper and I have one in my kennel. Out of an FC bitch. The breeder was totally out of the loop.
> 
> It's about networking and reputation. It's not on titles or pedigree alone though I would take a good pedigree before titles and no pedigree. But anyway...
> 
> ...


Dad Gummit Angie- we agree again!
I was "going to" post ,that, it is not only the parents, but how the litter is raised,(are they kennel pups,or are they socialized by hand and used to lots of exposure,lots of "Stuff' etc....), Reputation of the breeder, - all equals Demand,IMO.... I'd gladly pay a bit more for a pup with good breeding, from a breeder who does all the extra stuff, vs. one strictly on pedigree alone (even FC x FC breeding) that was a kennel raised pup with only seeing people for feeding and cleaning. Papers only go so far in my book--------
That all said, for the OP Margo- price your pups for what you can successfully sell them for and have that many happy satisfied buyers that will treat the puppy right.... Good luck and enjoy your babies.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

I'll chime in quick. A $1000.00 stud fee is not the price of said pup unless the female brings very little to the table except maybe a decent pedigree and health certs. I use the stud fee as a starting point. If you have a well above average female who is proven and brings quality traits to the mix, add a few hundered bucks. Afterall pedigree is great, but what has the female done, does she have skills? Add EIC CNM clear status and solid health you can have a $1500.00 pup.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I love watching Golden litters that are advertised.
I get the biggest kick out of people that are very good at advertiseing average Goldens and getting "BIG" prices for the puppies.

BTW: Goldens aren't all fluff:-x
Just the fluffy ones are!

It's still how good someone is at marketing the puppies.

I personally set realistic prices that realistic people can spend on a good quality Golden that I can back up with examples rather than rose-colored glasses.;-)

Set your prices reasonable and they will come.
Sue


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Absolutely. A lot of ethical breeders don't test for PRA in their litters. The PRA test is $195. GRCA health information says that PRA is actually extremely rare in goldens, the type they test for (I could be wrong but I think they only test for 1 of the 4 types) was found in I believe 18 goldens in the last 5 years. The actual percentage is something like .06%, which I'd imagine is why GRCA hasn't added it to the list of clearances.
While it's nice to have, especially on a stud that will be used a lot, the PRA test is really still considered optional on the breeding pair, let alone the litter going home.




Melanie Foster said:


> There are _many_ ethical breeders who do not do these tests before pups go to their new homes. If one parent is a prcd-PRA Carrier, the ethical breeder informs all prospective buyers up front but in no way is responsible for testing the whole litter as long as one parent is Normal/Clear.
> 
> We had a litter out of Carrier when the prcd-PRA test first came out. I thought the "ethical" thing to do was to test the whole litter. Over a thousand dollars in testing later, none of the pups ended up going to breeding homes so that was a total waste. :-x Live and learn.
> 
> BTW, breeders can easily get $1400 for pet puppies here (Goldens) if not more. That's California for ya.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

EdA said:


> me too, I wouldn't sell a puppy from my FC-AFC bitch that cheap


This past summer, FC AFC on both sides with depth on the pedigree were priced at $3500 and well-worth it. If the bitch side is very accomplished, like Kweezy, we both know what that kind of pup goes for  and there aren't a lot of those kind of bitches out there. A "very accomplished bitch" IMO is one that has multiple all-age wins, national finalist one or more times, accomplished littermates, etc., etc.

The NFC x NFC breeding goes for $6k and up. And, the stud fee on that is not a $6k stud fee.

Would most serious field trialers purchase a puppy from a titled sire and a no-name bitch that has no titles, and not much pedigree for anything over $800? People who plan to put several thousand dollars into young-dog training and all-age training to have an all-age dog that can place and title are looking for a well-bred pup with depth on both sides of the pedigree IMO. The pup price on a very well bred puppy is a drop in the bucket.

I think it is interesting that people will buy a pup from a breeding of well-known/titled stud dog and no-name/no pedigree bitch and then complain that the pup is a dud and blame that on the stud dog.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

EdA said:


> me too, I wouldn't sell a puppy from my FC-AFC bitch that cheap


Then again Kweezy could be bred to just about anything and throw pups that run straight & mark.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think the pricing of a pup based on the stud fee may be a holdover from when a titled female meant FT titled and not JH titled. If you bred gundogs before, breeding to a high priced stud does not make those pups worth 2X or 3X the price and FT worthy pups. It just means the breeding cost you more. If you do it for yourself, look at the stud fees as buying a pup to improve your lines and place the pups with a price your market and demand will bear or you better be able to train them as started dogs.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Sue Kiefer said:


> I love watching Golden litters that are advertised.
> *I get the biggest kick out of people that are very good at advertiseing average Goldens and getting "BIG" prices for the puppies*.
> 
> BTW: Goldens aren't all fluff:-x
> ...


I Know!!! A JH to a JH for $1000 is nuts. And dogs that took forever to get a title used as stud dogs. Or " bred to hunt ". 

Hard enough to find a good one regards


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

It's all about supply and demand. A pet home isn't likely to go buy a FC x FC breeding. I'd personally not be impressed w/ titles/pedigree if the temperament, health clearances and structure of the parents and grandparents aren't solid too.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Iv'e been told more than once your odds are better getting a good one by buying 4 nicely bred 1000 dollar puppys than 1 4000 dollar puppy.....


Would have to agree to some extent..


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Iv'e been told more than once your odds are better getting a good one by buying 4 nicely bred 1000 dollar puppys than 1 4000 dollar puppy.....
> 
> 
> Would have to agree to some extent..


All depends who you're buying from and the pedigree...

Angie


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Angie B said:


> All depends who you're buying from and the pedigree...
> 
> Angie


Agree, (Did i just say that?) and more importantly the outcome of most nicely breed puppys is who owns them and where they go for training.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Agree, (Did i just say that?) and more importantly the outcome of most nicely breed puppys is who owns them and where they go for training.


No you didn't but that's okay....

Are the nicely bred puppies purchased at $1000 or $4000?

Angie


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Angie B said:


> No you didn't but that's okay....
> 
> Are the nicely bred puppies purchased at $1000 or $4000?
> 
> Angie



I did really And Both


As long as this thread has gotten so off course from the original question, throw this into the mix

Litter 1-- FC/AFC Sire ( proven producer) X FC/AFC Bitch first liter Say $3500.00 per puppy


Litter 2-- Same FC/AFC Sire X HRCH or MH Female/ Gundog bitch from equally impressive lines that is a proven producer of FC and MH dogs from a previouse litter. $1200 per puppy 


WHAT LITTER DO YOU PICK???????????


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Door # 3.
Sorry couldn't help myself.;-)
Sue


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Litter #1 for me please.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Door # 3.
> Sorry couldn't help myself.;-)
> Sue


As long as you asked, this would be the gamblers litter 

Same sire JH bitch from as equally impressive lines $500 dollar pups..

You asked for door # 3


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Litter #1 for me too.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

junfan68 said:


> Litter #1 for me please.



I think your nuts but you could be right because we all know there are NO sure deals in the dog world. 

That HRCH/MH bitch if given the opportunity could very well have been a FC AFC or possibly a NFC/NFAC, but we all know not all dogs or there owners are created equal, in talent or wealth.

Still think Id'e pick the bitch that had proven she could pass on the genes over one that had more titles. Unless the purchase was strictly based on short term investment

I have a bitch in mind that was a HR/gundog at the time of breeding to a FC that produced a recent NFC, that NFC puppy was no more than a 500 dollar puppy.

I and many of you have seen alot of high end (Over 2000$ puppys) that never made it out of basics... In most cases you get what you pay for but there are exceptions on both ends. Money doesn't always = success, but carefull planning, and research helps..............


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Buzz said:


> Litter #1 for me too.


Ditto.....


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Buzz said:


> Litter #1 for me too.


And it has worked for you Dave.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I would pick litter no.2
But, I would prefer FC/AFC to FC/AFC where bitch has produced in the past


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I would pick litter no.2
> But, I would prefer FC/AFC to FC/AFC where bitch has produced in the past


Thank you Ted and I think most would, but then they wouldn't be 1200 dollar pups either.. Cost comparison from litter 1 and 2 is almost 3X. Reality is there are no odds you have to go with your gut sometimes your right sometimes your not.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd

I don't want to say that cost is irrelevant, but when you consider the expense to train and campaign a dog, it is relatively insignificant.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Depends on the pedigree... (you gotta look a little deeper here.) IMHO.. Also to what level have the puppies of the previous litter been trained and how successful have they been. Let's face it. If the puppies have some derby points and a MH, that's hardly the litter to be looking at for your next FC in my opinion. 

At least I wouldn't shop there. I also would be hesitant to buy from a titled bitch that hasn't produced.

Did I say the pedigree weighs in here??? Very important.

Angie


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

I am in the minority, but with the bitch being a proven producer it would be a no brainer for me - litter no. 2.

fp


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## Jared77 (Oct 7, 2009)

> but with the bitch being a proven producer it would be a no brainer for me


Litter 2 for the same reason


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Angie B said:


> Depends on the pedigree... (you gotta look a little deeper here.)
> 
> Did I say the pedigree weighs in here??? Very important.
> 
> Angie



True. Anyone (including me ) who would say for certain they would choose one litter or the other based on the information given are blowing smoke, or at least smoking something.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Pedigree is nice, but I want to know how the sire, the dam, and the offspring

- Perform on game day
- Train 

Invest in what you know


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Litter's such as #1 (FC AFC bitch's first litter) are interesting. 

Who wouldn't want an FC AFC bitch who is a proven producers. But all of those FC AFC bitches who are "proven producers" had a first litter.

FC AFC bitch repeat breedings from a very successful first breeding don't see the light of day.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> FC AFC bitch repeat breedings from a very successful first breeding don't see the light of day.


Homework, Homework, Homework


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Buzz said:


> True. Anyone (including me ) who would say for certain they would choose one litter or the other based on the information given are blowing smoke, or at least smoking something.


total agreement. what if the MH bitch took 30 attempts to get that MH? it happens, and i personally would prefer for a JH titled bitch that ran with style and marked well and showed all the right qualities.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Pedigree is nice, but I want to know how the sire, the dam, and the offspring
> 
> - Perform on game day
> - Train
> ...


Agreed but if you do your, Homework, Homework, Homework you'll see that there are some very strong pedigree combination's that almost always work.

There's not too many lean Macs out there... No pedigree to speak of but was a phenomenal athlete plus a producer. He was one of those anomaly's.

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Angie B said:


> you'll see that there are some very strong pedigree combination's that almost always work.


Such as???


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Such as???


Ted! Are you asking to crib off Angie's homework! ;-)


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Such as???


Hahahaha!!! Not so fast Ted,,,  Just poor over pedigrees and statistics until you're eye's cross and you'll see some strong tendencies.... 

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Hahahaha!!! Not so fast Ted,,,  Just poor over pedigrees and statistics until you're eye's cross and you'll see some strong tendencies....
> 
> Angie


Talk is cheap


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Todd
> 
> I don't want to say that cost is irrelevant, but when you consider the expense to train and campaign a dog, it is relatively insignificant.


I just read all pages of this thread leading up to Ted's post and was going to say the same thing. By the time you pay for training, campaigning, vet bills, clearances if you are thinking about breeding and everything else, the difference between a $600.00 puppy and a $3,500.00 one does seem rather insignificant.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Talk is cheap


Very....

Angie


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Talk is cheap


I kinda of wish Ted was all talk, cause then I might have a chance to beat him at a trial....but nooooo, not the case. Watching him at training also makes reality suck even more....I know for a fact Ted is not just talk!

FOM


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

FOM said:


> I kinda of wish Ted was all talk, cause then I might have a chance to beat him at a trial....but nooooo, not the case. Watching him at training also makes reality suck even more....I know for a fact Ted is not just talk!
> 
> FOM


so you two see eye to eye i hear! ;-)


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Buzz said:


> Ted! Are you asking to crib off Angie's homework! ;-)


Ya think??? He can crack a book just like the rest of us.... 

Angie


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

david gibson said:


> so you two see eye to eye i hear! ;-)


Not really he is taller than me, but who isn't? ;-)


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

Kristie Wilder said:


> aw, c'mon Margo, you're in the wrong place if you're dictating a rule that people must stick with the discussion and not comment otherwise.
> 
> I was simply agreeing with a previous poster -- not making a commentary on YOUR choice to have a litter at this time.


DICTATORS DON'T SAY 'PLEASE'


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

BWCA Labs Margo Penke said:


> DICTATORS DON'T SAY 'PLEASE'


How did that work for ya Margo???

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

FOM said:


> Not really he is taller than me, but who isn't? ;-)


Not by much!!! 

Angie


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Angie, initially I flippantly thought, share a race horse with me, if finding great and inherited talent were so easy. 

I filled in some spare time this morning, printing the pedigrees of the recent US national open finalists. The gene pool IS small. 

Thread has gone south again.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Bayou Magic said:


> I am in the minority, but with the bitch being a proven producer it would be a no brainer for me - litter no. 2.
> 
> fp


X2........... There are a lot of nice dogs

BUT

Just because a dog has Initals in front of its name doesn't make it a stud dog or great reproducer


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

No, BUt it sure brings the chances of getting a good dog vs. a nothing dog.
I currently am training a couple of those "His parents were good huntin dawgs" pedigree dogs. Lots and lots and lots of extra work. Owners sometimes are better to buy a started dog.
Sue


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> No, BUt it sure brings the chances of getting a good dog vs. a nothing dog.


................and what should one justifiably expect from one of these "high end" pups (???)

john


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

junfan68 said:


> $3,000 for a FC AFC x FC AFC would be a bargain in my book.


In 1976 that was a $300.00 breeding.

Puppies today are so over inflated, it's a shame, BUT it's Business. And Business is business.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Homework, Homework, Homework


Can you elaborate on your comment Ted?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> ................and what should one justifiably expect from one of these "high end" pups (???)
> 
> john


A smaller chance of getting a washout or a greater chance of getting an FC. However you want to look at it. The older I get the harder it is to wash out pups. I want to increase my chances of getting a top 10% talented trial dog.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Would some of you overlook some health issues for the "right" breeding J

john


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## Van Ames (Feb 11, 2005)

john fallon said:


> Would some of you overlook some health issues for the "right" breeding J
> 
> john


John, Short answer from me would be yes. Before some of the clearances we have today a friend and I acquired littermates. One went on to be a National Derby Champion and FC, the other was EIC affected and now tends a lobster boat. The first one went on to sire many fine animals with all their health clearances. 

Van


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Wade said:


> Puppies today are so over inflated, it's a shame, BUT it's Business. And Business is business.


Labs are cheap compared to some other breds. Look at English Bulldogs at $2,000 and up for just a pet, and they don't last long or do anything but look cool.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> .... Look at English Bulldogs at $2,000 and up for just a pet, and they don't last long or do anything but look cool.












Or not.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

bjoiner said:


> Labs are cheap compared to some other breds. Look at English Bulldogs at $2,000 and up for just a pet, and they don't last long or do anything but look cool.


In this situation we are not talking about other breeds.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Wade said:


> In 1976 that was a $300.00 breeding.
> 
> Puppies today are so over inflated, it's a shame, BUT it's Business. And Business is business.


How much was gas, a new vehicle, a house, and etc? It's simple inflation. Raise the minimum wage up and everything you buy is certain to follow.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I notice all kinds of "deals" are out there until you decide to look for one yourself


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> How much was gas, a new vehicle, a house, and etc? It's simple inflation. Raise the minimum wage up and everything you buy is certain to follow.


Very poor comparison. Make the attempt to illustrate another product that has gone up inflationwise what a puppy has in the trial game?


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2010)

Wade said:


> Very poor comparison. Make the attempt to illustrate another product that has gone up inflationwise what a puppy has in the trial game?


Was it easier to title a dog in 1976? Did one ever have to win a 117 dog Open (as in next weekend in Georgia) in order to title a dog back then? 

The trial game has changed and puppy prices have followed suit.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2010)

Wade said:


> Make the attempt to illustrate another product that has gone up inflationwise what a puppy has in the trial game?


1970 -- Price of a gallon of gas was $.36.

http://www.1970sflashback.com/1970/economy.asp


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> Was it easier to title a dog in 1976? Did one ever have to win a 117 dog Open (as in next weekend in Georgia) in order to title a dog back then?
> 
> The trial game has changed and puppy prices have followed suit.


True, but not everything in the trial game has gone out of control like puppy prices. The best example I will give you is the price of a Pro. The monthly bill has gone up just under 3 times what it was back then. Puppy prices on the other hand have gone up nearly 10 times.

Unfortunately Melanie, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Like I stated earlier, business is business and if people are going to pay the over inflated prices so be it.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

3.00 per gallon now / 0.36 per gallon in 1970 * $300 per puppy price = $2,500 per puppy price now. Pretty good comparison to me, and that's automobile gas. A better comparison to a FC/AFC * FC/AFC would be fuel for the space shuttle.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2010)

bjoiner said:


> 3.00 per gallon now / 0.36 per gallon in 1970 * $300 per puppy price = $2,500 per puppy price now. Pretty good comparison to me


I love it when I win. ;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> True, but not everything in the trial game has gone out of control like puppy prices. The best example I will give you is the price of a Pro. The monthly bill has gone up just under 3 times what it was back then. Puppy prices on the other hand have gone up nearly 10 times.


Actually, just prior to 1970 gas used to bounce back and forth between $.25 and $.38.
I don't know who your first pro was or who you bought a puppy from that was that cheap. My first pro fees were never that cheap to have gone up 3X. The cheapest I can remember was $400 a month for puppy training, not trialing. Handling fees haven't changed much, entries are up but not that much. What has changed are veterinary fees big time. We didn't have frozens or progesterones or chilled AI's because we sent females on a plane to be bred naturally or drove. C-sections have quadrupled. Dog food has gone up, no DNA tests before to do on all the pups. Gas, motels and food are up to compete a weekend. An FC bitch can only have a few litters. Do you actually expect people to sell them for $500 because that's what I paid for my first dogs in the late 70's. Pros can't hire assistant pros for a few bucks an hour-they have families also. Insurance has gone up, land improvement and taxes. Also, deals can come to you if you are really competing.


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?action=read&artid=418

Sirloin steak 2.29/lb in 1976 (I used 12.99/lb for the ribeyes around here since I don't usually buy sirloin, so not exact comparison, I have seen steaks here for as much as 21/lb in the grocery stores, don't remember what kind) 5.6 x increase at the "normal" getting price, pretty darn close to 10x for the $21/lb price

Bread .35, currently 2.79 here for normal brands, about 2 for generics 7.98 x increase

Minimum wage 1976 $2.30 now $7.25 (wouldn't think many then or now would have FT dogs) 3.15 times

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/cola/AWI.html
Average wage index 1976 $9,226.48, 2009 $40,711.61 4.4x increase (Again how many at the "average" were/are doing FT dogs)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Can you elaborate on your comment Ted?



I think you invest in things that you know and and understand

I always keep an eye out for a hard going, good marking dog when I am training - or competing
I talk to pros and serious amateurs about the dogs on their trucks, the strengths and weaknesses of those dogs
I ask pros and serious amateurs what young dogs that they have that they really like
I ask pros and serious amateurs what bitches that they have that they really like
I collect information
I pore over pedigrees and look for strong marking bitch lines
I look for proven producers

When I find a dog that piques my interest, I will start asking people I trust what they know about the dog
- What is the dog like in training
- Marking ability
- Water attitude
- Teamwork

And if I really like the dog - especially if it is a hard going, good marking bitch, I will ask the owner to contact me when he/she breeds her

There is just no substitute for hard work


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I am amazed over this thread about puppy prices and whether the pup was "worth" the price paid. 

No matter what is paid for a puppy, there is no guarantee that they will be a good hunting dog. There is no guarantee that a puppy will do well in hunt tests or NAHRA or become a successful competitor in field trials. 

Sometimes you get what you paid for ... and sometimes not. Sometimes it isn't the puppy's fault that it did not realize its potential and not "worth" the price paid. 

As a buyer, I wouldn't expect a lot out of a $500 puppy in field trial potential terms. But I would be very pleased if I could get a well-bred puppy for $500. that turned out to be very talented. It has happened, I know. But I would spend more to get a chance of getting a puppy with more trial potential. 

Don and I decided to aim higher. We studied pedigrees and the dogs in them. The price we paid for our Lab bitch puppy 6 years ago (a Carbon daughter) has been well worth what we paid for her, and she wasn't cheap. She now is an AFC and close to her FC. She has qualified for 2 National Amateurs. Five pups from her first litter are on the current national Derby list. She has produced talent. 

As breeders, Don and I don't breed $500 puppies because that is not the market we chose to serve when we bought our bitch. Nor are $500 puppies the market for the stud dogs we have chosen for her. (She is carrying Shaq puppies right now.) 

As someone previously said, what is your mission statement? That's important to think about. 

As a breeder, what is your goal and what is your market? 

As a puppy buyer, what are your interests and goals for your puppy? And then ask yourself, what are YOU going to do for that puppy to achieve its potential so it is "worth" what you paid for it. 

Just some random thoughts...

Helen


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

deleted post, sorry, posted in wrong thread


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

OK, between this thread (and recent conversation with the owner of the sire) & considering all comments - I'm pretty sure we have come to the conclusion that as breeders, thus owners of the produced litter, that we are free, without offense to anybody, to charge whatever we want for our pups ~ regardless of a stud fee. I heard, a few Nat'l Amateurs ago - while photographing the finalist line up, that the winner of that National Amateur Retriever Championship Stake was a $350 puppy.
My motivation as a hobby breeder stems from 'My love for the dog and it's owner." My mentor distinctly told me this: "Margo, I hope I never see you charging a lot for your puppies." quickly adding "Unless something wonderful happens, and you get lucky, then it wouldn't hurt would it?" (with good laughter following)
Considering money ought never be a motivation in our hobby or our sport. Our next upcoming litter (day 63: 2/5/11) will be less, again ~ and it's out of the same 'expensive' sire bred to my untitled mama, yet ~ never campaigned, so we can't hold that against her. She is a granddaughter of the 1998 NFC, on her daddy's side. And she has Joe DeLoia's 'tried and true' dog's pedigree on her mothers' sire's side. She is a dog of whom I am the breeder of and have personally owned 3 of her family members in her pedigree back to the 4th generation. Her last breeding was with AFC Carbons Blue Pursuit, and Vickie Lamb took two of those pups, I own one who became a Junior Hunter one week after she became a 1 year old. Yes, we are Hunt Test people who have a couple dogs that just might bring us to the Field Trials, we'll see...I do-try to do my homework, too. But this next bunch, again, will be out of a mama who is untitled, a big strrong very light blond who is a handful of a hunt-aholic that I love with all my heart. Too bad she wasn't formally trained and campaigned. But we are 'on track' with that now...again thanks to our pro: Mark Vossbein. Yep: On Track and Dog Poor! Yip Yip Hooray! Love Love Love these Labs. Our trainers report last night on "Pixie" was that she is doing really well, maturing, much steadier on her retrieves; more focused; and she is doing doubles with a blind, Senior Hunt work (dob 8/22/09)...he wants our dog, "Sparkle" back, too. Next summer, during our short Minnesota HT season, we should be running for a SH title on Pixie and a MH title on Sparkle (dob 4/5/08). and indeed, we do hope puppy placements help cover hobby expenses; but it's not my motive. My motivation on this breeding came from a call from a previous client in tears dealing with the grief of his old dog who had to be put to sleep; wantin another pup from us. Our trade, as Florists, needs to pick up so we can continue to afford this marvelous hobby of ours...apparently roses are one of the first things folks budget out of a distressed income. Go figure!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I think you invest in things that you know and and understand
> 
> I always keep an eye out for a hard going, good marking dog when I am training - or competing
> I talk to pros and serious amateurs about the dogs on their trucks, the strengths and weaknesses of those dogs
> ...


And there is no substitute for a BRAIN!!!!

Your laundry list is good but them being *intelligent *is Paramount in my book... 

I want a dog that knows how to stay out of trouble and know's how to get out of trouble at the AA level....

All the other attributes you've mentioned will make a consistent AA player with a good trainer... 

You can make a dog with hard work... I've seen it done.

But,,,, does that make that dog a better dog??? Or does it mean the trainer has worked harder???

Angie


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Angie B said:


> And there is no substitute for a BRAIN!!!!
> 
> Your laundry list is good but them being *intelligent *is Paramount in my book...
> 
> ...


Angie

Like you and Ted, I also look at a myriad of factors but I agree with you 100% that intelligence is absolutely huge. Without it, the modern big league consistent field trial dog is lost. It is No. 1 in my books too. 

Cheers


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Angie B said:


> And there is no substitute for a BRAIN!!!!
> 
> Your laundry list is good but them being *intelligent *is Paramount in my book...
> 
> ...


AGREED!!! Intelligence in a dog can overcome many of my grey matter shortcomings

BTW, how in the hell does a blonde know so much about intelligence?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> I want a dog that knows how to stay out of trouble and know's how to get out of trouble at the AA level....


Will you elaborate on that.......

john


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

When dogs start driving us to training I will start calling them intelligent. 

Who published border collies are the most intelligent breed. Hey bet they tested working borders, not bench. Are wild dogs more intelligent than working breeds?


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