# Duck Toller



## Koolaid (Jan 14, 2010)

Just curious is anyone has seen any in action.
I know Labs are king, but I'm a little bit different, so I want a retriever that's a little bit different.
You don't need to tell me I won't be winning FTs with them...I'm not in the financial situation for that atm. Just want a nice little hunting companion.
Thanks


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

I did and they are beautiful to see ! As they are on the small size, it is a bit hard for them to work with Canada goose to retrieve... but have all what's needed for duck hunting and even some upland !

I don't have an extensive knowledge of their temperament so I may not be a great help on that side but as far as I observed, they have a great amount of energy and generally sociable (for the few I came across, they were like that but may not represent the majority).

If you want to go for "different", there are others that can also be interesting : Irish Water Spaniels, St. Poodle, Curly Coat Retrievers or Flat Coat Retrievers. In those recognized breeds, there are working blood lines that can surely be also interesting ! If you choose the NSDT, there are good breeders in Northern America !


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Tollers handle geese just fine, thank you very much. They are really good upland hunters as well.

There is a lovely picture of Josh from Foxgrove Kennels floating around on RTF somewhere after a goose hunt.

I duck hunt over my two. 

There is not a split in tollers as there is in labs and goldens...versatily is a tollers middle name but if you are looking for a hunting toller I would be looking for one from a breeder who actually participates in Hunt test or can prove that they hunt over their dogs so at least you know the parents are birdy and have a brain. 

Those breeders will also know what to look for in a hunting pup as well...IMO many breeders put conformation potential first and foremost when picking pups and the left overs go to pet/ hunting homes. 

Check out the NSDTRC of Canada and the NSDTRC (US) for more breed info and for a Breeders Referral list.

I don't have puppies and am not breeding in the near future but your welcome to check out my website www.kasomor.com or send me a PM.

Cheers,
Linda

Kasomor NSDTR


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

your welcome to check out my website www.kasomor.com

That is a very nice web site. You have done a wonderful job of representing the breed also. I now declare the Toller my second choice if I were to get another hunting dog. BLF's own me now.


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## Susan Young (Apr 13, 2004)

I hunt pheasant, ducks and geese with my Tollers. In my experience I have found that they excel at upland, are equal to most of the Labs we’ve shared a blind with for duck hunting, and while they can retrieve geese, it’s not as easy for them to get a hold of and carry a big goose on land as it is for my Lab who just opens her mouth and scoops it up just like any other bird.

You might want to visit the Toll NTrain forum, which is a discussion board specifically for those who train their Tollers for hunting and hunting tests. http://tollntrain.com/forum/index.php


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

The following is probably the most intelligent and knowlegable response to this "breed vs breed" question I've ever read..................written by a Toller owner with experience and copied from another web-site. For what it's worth, here it is. 

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................:

"OK at the risk of having half the Toller community come after me..........

The Toller is a wonderful versatile breed. I hunt, compete in obedience, field work and agility with mine as well as putting show CH's on them. That is what I love about them. They are not one trick ponies. They can go from venue to venue, they are interactive in the house, I love their small size. I love the breed!!!!!

However, if a Hunt Test/Field Trial or just a fabulous hunting dog were all I wanted I would be hard pressed not to buy a lab. A lab is the Ferrari of retrievers, the black lab is still the best. They are all heart, have tremendous water courage and birdiness and terrain is no obstacle for them. They have been bred for many generations to do what they do best, retrieve birds in any condition. It has been the goal of field lab breeders to improve on these traits. And they have proven them in field trials, hunt tests and the duck blind generation after generation. The most field depth I have seen in Tollers is 3 MH's in one pedigree. Yes we do have the odd exceptional Hunt Test/Field Trial Toller and lots of decent hunting companions, but as a breed we can never be at the same level as a field bred black lab!

Training wise, even an average lab is going to be naturally birdy and hit the water hard from the beginning, something we do not see in most Tollers. The breed as a whole is water weak. Labs are also much more forgiving than a Toller. The Toller is smarter and can problem solve better in many instances but this does not make them easier to train. 

There is nothing wrong with comparing two breeds. But be honest and love the Toller for what they are and give credit to the other breeds for what they do best also."


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Here is another very intelligent and thoughtful commentary from an experienced Toller and Lab owner..............also copied from a "Toller specific" web-site.................................................................................................................................................

"OK, this is one of my pet peeves. From the phrase "anyone can train a lab" to "labs are like a chevy, anyone can drive one". I am assuming that in honesty no offense is meant by these statements, but they are so far from the truth.

What we have in the Lab breed are what Sue mentioned, enormous water courage, incredible trainability, years of selective breeding for birdness, marking ability and so on. Much of these genetics make it cleaner (not necessarily easier) to train a dog that does not perceive water, birds, terrain etc. as adverse. It is their desire to get the bird that helps them overcome adversity, like big water, lousy trainers and so on.

I beg to differ in terms of ease of training. The very characteristics that make a top competitive lab are the very characteristics that can make training challenging. Harnessing all that desire, getting a team work attitude, stopping them when they are going 50,000 miles an hour for the thing they love the best. I challenge people to take on a high end lab, run them in a FT, win and get a team player out of it. It is NOT EASY and NOT ANYONE can do it. It is hours and hours of drills, yard work, marks, marks and more marks, blinds, blinds and more blinds. Easy---NOT.

What you have is a breed that is more forgiving of mistakes on the part of the trainer. Their desire to get the bird means they will take incredibly bad training and still do the work. Is this a problem with the breed, no, the training.

I am out there day in and day out training good dogs, my Toller is way, way easier to train to do many tasks than my Labs as he is not clouded by overwhelming desire. Just because Labs can take more ineffective, stupid training and keep on going, does not mean that they are "easier". If easier means quicker, it depends on the dog and the trainer.

I own both breeds and love them for their differences and enjoying training them both, but...............not everyone can train a lab and I know that not everyone can run one either. Please remember us owners of those "common black dogs" love our common dogs as much as we love our rare ones. 

Personally, the courage, desire, trainabilty, stability of temperment of the Lab is so awesome that I am in awe watching what they can do, especially in light of the brutal and sometimes horrible training that they endure. Their desire to get the bird saves many a poor trainer."


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## Koolaid (Jan 14, 2010)

I have no interest in getting a lab.

Thanks to the rest of you. I found a breeder who is relatively close and I'm going to visit them sometime this week. The husband hunts them and the wife shows them. They are also both active in participation and administration of the local retriever club. I live in the Atlantic Provinces, so there are many breeders around, it's just a matter of finding the best hunting lines I guess.

Susan I have heard that tollers naturally stay around 15 yards of the hunter when you are out upland hunting? Do you find this to be true?

Also, the aspect of tolling. Does this technique only work on a floating duck to lure them to swim in, or do they actually catch the eye of ones flying overhead?


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## Laura Heyden (Aug 14, 2009)

I love the Tollers! If I ever got a different type of retriever which I don't see happening, it would be a Toller. The ones I have seen around here are very well rounded. We have an OTCH/MH somewhere around here, I've seen him at seminars and what a cutie. I keep telling their owners to watch out, I was gonna smuggle them home

Good luck in your search. Be sure to post a picture when you find your Toller!


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## Susan Young (Apr 13, 2004)

Koolaid said:


> Susan I have heard that tollers naturally stay around 15 yards of the hunter when you are out upland hunting? Do you find this to be true?
> 
> Also, the aspect of tolling. Does this technique only work on a floating duck to lure them to swim in, or do they actually catch the eye of ones flying overhead?


My Tollers tend to hunt closer to me than my hunting buddies’ Labs or Goldens, but I feel that’s because that’s how I’ve trained them. Trust me, they’d be more than happy to race around the pheasant fields putting up birds all over the place if allowed, just like any other dog. I learned upland from a spaniel guy, and my dogs tend to work like spaniels. I like them within 20-30 yards. 

I have rarely used tolling when hunting. There are those out there that have done so, and they may want to chime in. I have had ducks flying overhead turn and land in rivers near my Tollers when they were just chasing sticks on a river for fun. But, for that matter, we’ve had geese turn and come to look at black Labs running back to the blind after a retrieve.

For the most part when I’m hunting over one them, my Toller is there as my dog, not as a Toller. I expect the same from them that my hunting partners expect from their Labs or Goldens. My dogs are better than some dogs we hunt with, and worse than others. 

I have an oversized year-old Lab who will eventually be my “go to” goose dog, because it’s easier for her to pick up the huge bird on land and therefore she’s back in the blind quicker. When I hunt pheasant, my younger Toller is my first choice because she’s the best upland dog I own. They’re probably all equal for duck hunting, the only difference between them being one of age and experience, not breed, although there have been hunts where it was easier to have a small dog with me, such as when I had to paddle out in my kayak with the dog squished in behind me, or when we’ve hunted from a small pop up blind.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Koolaid-

I'll answer your one question. I had a 7 month old dog that tolled ducks out of the air at a Toller specialty test one year. We were demonstrating the tolling test and the judges lost track of the number of throws I'd used. Then they admitted that ducks were flying along and saw her and dropped into the water and were coming into shore and they were just sort of admiring her work.

Tollers are certainly a "niche" dog. However, that certainly doesn't mean they can't do the work.

Eric


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## Northern Lights Kennels (May 9, 2006)

I hope if you choose a toller, you will not be disapointed in what you get! Have you ever seen them work? There are many alternatives to just a lab or a toller. Research your alternatives and by all means do NOT take the advice of only 1 breeder! Most all of the breeders I know have the "My Breed Is THE BEST" syndrome. Just for one breed that comes to mind as an alternative is an American Water Spaniel....they are different, work well on both land and water, are small, and make great pets in the home. Research well and you will not be disapointed with "Your Choice".

BTW I breed Labs, They are MY CHOICE & they work for ME.


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Northern Lights Kennels said:


> I hope if you choose a toller, you will not be disapointed in what you get! Have you ever seen them work? There are many alternatives to just a lab or a toller. Research your alternatives and by all means do NOT take the advice of only 1 breeder! Most all of the breeders I know have the "My Breed Is THE BEST" syndrome. Just for one breed that comes to mind as an alternative is an American Water Spaniel....they are different, work well on both land and water, are small, and make great pets in the home. Research well and you will not be disapointed with "Your Choice".
> 
> BTW I breed Labs, They are MY CHOICE & they work for ME.


Speaking of the "my breed is best" syndrome you have that down pat!

The majority of Toller breeders I know, including myself, tell folks if they are thinking of getting a lab... get one. Tollers are NOT for everyone. Come to think of it.... neither are labs 

Regards,
Linda


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## traklover (Mar 10, 2008)

Hi Koolaid, coming from the Maritimes, I can guess which kennels you are speaking of. Both are in NB, and both are very active in hunt tests, both husband and wife are judges. One of them ran a toller in the Canadian Master Nationals this year. There is also a third kennel in Nova Scotia, that does mostly hunting, and hunt tests (members of my hunt club). PM me if you want to check anthing with me.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

The Tollers I've seen are hot little dogs. Lot's of intensity and I like the small size. I'd love to own one some day.
Walt


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## Spoonbill (Mar 16, 2009)

Koolaid said:


> I have no interest in getting a lab.


Koolaid, It wasn't too long ago I made this very same quote. 

I liked the toller's size, appearance, and personality much more than a lab's. I read alot of great things about their hunting ability. I decided a toller would be my first retriever. I bought mine from a kennel that hunted over their dogs; parents and grandparents had working certificates and Junior hunter titles (not too bad for a toller pedigree)

Friday I am going to pick up a lab pup.

Now let me explain. My toller isn't a washout, I still think he will make a decent hunting dog with time, BUT if HUNTING is the reason you (or anyone considering a toller) are buying a dog, you should be aware of what you are buying.

BUYING A TOLLER PUP FOR A HUNTING DOG IS A RISK WAY OUT OF PROPORTION TO BUYING A LAB FOR THE SAME PURPOSE.

I have 2 points I'd like to make
1) You are not buying a water-dog
2) Pedigree dosen't guarantee a good toller



1)
You are not buying a guaranteed water-dog

don't disregard the quote labguy posted,

"even an average lab is going to be naturally birdy and hit the water hard from the beginning, something we do not see in most Tollers. The breed as a whole is water weak"

Nothing is more frustrating than your duck dog being weak with water. If you plan to hunt over water with your toller, think this over long and hard. If this is your 1st dog you'll be inclined to think this something you won't mind working through, but I can tell you from experience its not fun.

My toller works great on land. He has tons of desire and is birdy as hell. Water sucks that right out of him. Now he did good retrieving pigeons shot over warm water in the summer, but come fall and the less controlled environment of the duck hunt, he was basically along for the ride.

EXPECT that you'll have to force-fetch your dog for work in the water, expect a lot of frustrating work and don't expect a good 1st hunting season.

The most valuable service your HUNTING dog can provide is finding game that isn't belly up in the decoys. Sending a dog that is weak on water to something he didn't see go down, or is swimming away, is not an easy task.

Don't expect a dog that will work in adverse conditions (i.e., good duck hunting weather). You've read about a big thick coat breed for swimming in the icy ocean waters of Nova Scotia. BS. Your dog spends more time in the boat or blind then in the water. That big thick coat is not easy to shake dry, especially in the confines of the blind, I've watched my dog shiver in the boat next to a lab that seemed completely comfortable.


2) Pedigree
Many toller breeders I've spoken with have made this point; even in a toller litter with a good pedigree their is still a lot of variation and unknowns. A good pedigree in a lab is almost a guarantee you will atleast have a decent hunting dog. I don't think this is the case with tollers.

You could easily spend 2-3 times as much on a toller as you would on a lab with a solid pedigree.

Breeders have the option of appraising tons of pups and keeping the best, placing ones that washout or progress too slowly with good homes, unless you are willing to purchase multiple dogs, you will have ONE CHANCE PER 10-14 YEARS. Buying a toller for a hunting dog is a risk way out of proportion to that of a lab.

In summary;

I really like tollers, I've even thought of getting into breeding someday to try to bring out their better traits. When I bought my dog I would have never dreamed I'd be buying a lab a year later.

The problem is, there is not enough accurate information out there on tollers. 
Call breeders all over the continent. Get opinions, they've all been very friendly and willing to talk to me even though I was not looking for puppies.

Don't get puppy fever. When you want something badly your brain will only look for evidence it is a good idea and will ignore the bad or make you think you'll just get lucky.

Re-read the post from labguy, know what you are getting into. If it's your first hunting dog things like "overwhelming desire" and "birdiness and water courage" may not mean a lot to you, but they are real and genetics plays a big role. I can't emphasize how important this is for a good hunting dog. You can control desire, but creating it is a different story.

If you only plan to hunt over water a few times a year in the early season and you don't mind spending a lot of training time and a few hunting seasons getting your dog to retrieve acceptably, maybe a toller isn't too big a risk for you. Similarly if you plan to just hunt upland water courage wouldn't be an issue (but again burrs collect in long toller coats worse then labs, not a trivial matter depending on where you'll be hunting).


If you hunt over water a lot, but just like to do things differently I'd suggest you shoot a black powder side x side, build your own boat, but still buy a lab.


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## Koolaid (Jan 14, 2010)

I don't understand one things you are saying.

The Tollers were bred in Nova Scotia. One of the places they were used to hunt were the Atlantic Ocean. The breeders I'm considering at the moment have hundreds of Acres with man made water. We're in New Brunswick. There is no such thing as as a field here. It's all rivers, swamps and pine trees. I've been around them for all my life and any toller I've seen loves the water. I'm really not understanding where this point is coming from. A neighbor of mine had a relative from Ontario bring one down that she plans on showing. In mid October I threw sticks for a solid 30 minutes into the then quite chilly lake. We only stopped when they had to leave. At my camp on the Atlantic ocean I've watched people play fetch with their tollers into the almost never warm water. No hesitation, and certainly no FF training to be made to do so.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Koolaid

IMO, there is a dog for everyone. The question is "which one ?". The greatest mistake is to choose a dog for "what it represents or looks like". Each breed has its traits and each individual dog has its "personality".

In the real life, what does this mean ? First, if your choice relies on a good knowledge of the breed, you've got a good start. Second, spend time with breeders - owners - handlers - trainers that work with Tollers and also, have yourself in contact with those dogs. If the entire protrait "fits" you, you're aware of what are going to be the challenges and you can relie on experience people who train tollers, weell go for it !

I have seen in Hunt Tests some beginers with tollers that had good results, so it is possible.

What was said about the limits you may encounter and all the other arguments that were braught are true but if you strongly feel that this type of dog is for you, go ahead !

I started in field goldens many years ago in an environment that is "labs all the way". People tried to discourage me to choose goldens and I didn't listen. Today, I am proud owner of 9 incredible goldens that have showed to be great gundogs, delivered to me hundreds of birds (in all possible conditions and environment) and are faithful companions in the house. Regretting my choice ? Even if it has been hard to make my way thru at the begining, it was all worth every drop of swet !!!


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## Spoonbill (Mar 16, 2009)

Koolaid said:


> I don't understand one things you are saying.
> 
> The Tollers were bred in Nova Scotia. One of the places they were used to hunt were the Atlantic Ocean. The breeders I'm considering at the moment have hundreds of Acres with man made water. We're in New Brunswick. There is no such thing as as a field here. It's all rivers, swamps and pine trees. I've been around them for all my life and any toller I've seen loves the water. I'm really not understanding where this point is coming from. A neighbor of mine had a relative from Ontario bring one down that she plans on showing. In mid October I threw sticks for a solid 30 minutes into the then quite chilly lake. We only stopped when they had to leave. At my camp on the Atlantic ocean I've watched people play fetch with their tollers into the almost never warm water. No hesitation, and certainly no FF training to be made to do so.


My post is biased by the experience I've had with my dog, ~5 other tollers I know personally and conversations with breeders discussing water courage in the breed. It's completely possible its not an issue for these breeders your dealing with. Address it with them directly. 

Consider how old these tollers are you've met, also consider they've probably not had any pressure to retrieve (i.e., its all fun, all the time). I expect my dog will slowly overcome his water issues over the next few years, but is this acceptable for a retriever?

The issue with cold weather I was describing is that a dog is expected to sit relatively still in your boat or blind after a retrieve, sometimes for hours and therefore can't get all the water out of its coat as it can freely frolicking on the shore, a lab's coat seems to shed water easier.

I like tollers, but I want ppl searching the archives in the future to have this viewpoint available to them. Maybe the points I've made aren't issues for your hunting style or the breeders your dealing with.

It would be great to get input here from other toller owners on water issues. Non-toller owners, keep in mind you're not going to see many water shy dogs entered in hunt-tests.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Koolaid said:


> I don't understand one things you are saying.
> 
> The Tollers were bred in Nova Scotia. One of the places they were used to hunt were the Atlantic Ocean. The breeders I'm considering at the moment have hundreds of Acres with man made water. We're in New Brunswick. There is no such thing as as a field here. It's all rivers, swamps and pine trees. I've been around them for all my life and any toller I've seen loves the water. I'm really not understanding where this point is coming from. A neighbor of mine had a relative from Ontario bring one down that she plans on showing. In mid October I threw sticks for a solid 30 minutes into the then quite chilly lake. We only stopped when they had to leave. At my camp on the Atlantic ocean I've watched people play fetch with their tollers into the almost never warm water. No hesitation, and certainly no FF training to be made to do so.


Fetching a stick as far as a person can throw it and retrieving a wounded mallard (let alone a Canada goose) that falls between 50 and 400 yards away in cold,windy and swampy conditions are two different things. 

Do your research and make an informed choice based on what your needs and expectations are. Avoid biased opinions whether they are from Toller Breeders, Lab lovers, or Chessie afficianados because those opinions are just that .........biased based on their love of that particular breed.

You also might want to google "toller scream" .

Good luck with whatever you chose.


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## Spoonbill (Mar 16, 2009)

I'd like to make a few last points for ppl considering tollers that are reading this thread, or will be searching the archives in the future. Hence this isn't necessarily directed to Koolaid.

I came to the dog world because I do a lot of duck hunting, and decided a dog would be a great asset. I had no interest in competing in field trialing or hunt tests. I assumed all retrievers could perform the the hunting companion job equally well (within reason of course). I therefore picked a breed based on personal preferences and ended up with a toller. 

If all retrievers looked exactly alike, and the only choice in retrievers was among bloodlines, you'd almost certainly end up with a lab or chessie bloodline for a HUNTING dog. They have some of the best hunting pedigrees and pups with good bloodlines are quite common. You wouldn't look twice at a toller pedigree where there is many times more conformation champions than hunt test dogs in the average pedigree.

Know that by choosing a toller for your retriever you are drastically reducing the # of good bloodlines in your search for a quality hunting companion. 

It is now PARAMOUNT to do as much research as possible on the kennels that produce hunting tollers. If you don't know any toller breeders personally, the first step is to find litters with hunt-tests in their pedigree preferably beyond JH, from there...

For tollers, the things I would look for and ask about are
1) Drive
2) Water courage
3) Birdiness
4) Temperment (you have to live with the dog too)
5) High degree of variation within litters

If the sire and dam have the 1st 4 traits, ask the breeder about when they developed them. I've heard a number of stories about tollers that didn't develop water courage until they were 3+.

If you've located a potential litter that meets these criteria, discuss variability within litters. I don't personally know a lot about this other than that it exisits. Tollers are still a small breed and I'm guessing its difficult to fix traits without excessive inbreeding. Get the breeders opinion on this, then ask other breeders about them.

Some breeders may hunt over their dogs, but haven't participated in hunt-tests. Be concious that what a breeder considers "hunting over our dogs", may not be what you would assume. It can mean, "we used to when we first started out", "we get out a few times a year, it dosen't really matter how our dogs perform", "our friends have taken our dogs out hunting"

Ask them point blank "how many times have you hunted over these dogs, how many retrieves have they made, how far, have they handled geese, etc.", I don't think any breeders would be dishonest, but if you're not direct in what you ask them, they can be misleading (either conciously or unconciously).


My theme is this; if you want a dog for HUNTING...pick a pup from a litter that will maximize the probability of your expectations being met. 

If you decide you need a toller, know that your going to have to be extra careful choosing a litter and even then it's not a completely sure thing.

Be prepared to be patient since not a lot of pups are produced a year relative to other breeds. Toller pups are among the cutest so puppy fever will probably be an issue. Good luck.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I've had two Tollers that routinely did 300 yard blinds. Good enough for ya'?

Eric


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## K92line (Nov 21, 2005)

Amazing, Spoonbill, what a thoughtful and intelligent response to the issues facing a hunter that wants a Toller for hunting. I have owned two Tollers and now have two labs and a Toller. Spoonbills comments and observations are spot on.

I did not take his comments to be a negative on the Toller breed, but a well thought out and thoughtful commentary on the difficulty one might encounter when purchasing a Toller.

Both my Tollers achieved their MH titles, one became QAA, and both were what I considered water weak. With modern training techniques and the technology available we are able to effectively train around this, but it is still an issue. 

The fact is most Toller breeders are not avid hunters and really do not understand what water courage is, let along what a hunter really wants in a hunting dog. I can't tell you how many times I have been told that someone's Toller loves water as they will happily retrieve a hand thrown stick over and over. 

I love my Tollers and take great pride and their (and my) accomplishments with them, but the issues Spoonbill lists are spot on. Additionally, those accomplishments did not come without a great deal of knowledge and some super high quality training and two good dogs to start with.

Nancy


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

This ought to put paid to any comments about a Toller not being big enough to handle a goose.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2010/01/top-40-hunting-dogs?photo=3

Eric


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> This ought to put paid to any comments about a Toller not being big enough to handle a goose.
> 
> http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2010/01/top-40-hunting-dogs?photo=3
> 
> Eric


I also have seen tollers at canada goose hunting. They manage to retrieve them but it isn't quite their cup of tea. Duck hunting is and upland !


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

K92line said:


> Amazing, Spoonbill, what a thoughtful and intelligent response to the issues facing a hunter that wants a Toller for hunting. I have owned two Tollers and now have two labs and a Toller. Spoonbills comments and observations are spot on.
> 
> I did not take his comments to be a negative on the Toller breed, but a well thought out and thoughtful commentary on the difficulty one might encounter when purchasing a Toller.
> 
> ...


As well you should Nancy! I know that I and most folks in the gallery have really gotten a kick out of watching your little dog do big dog work. He is great, it is fun seeing a different type of dog compete as well as he does. 

For those of us involved in this sport, water courage comes in degrees from that dog willing to go to sea aginst wind, waves and cold water with no end in sight, to dogs willing to retrieve a duck in a marsh, but would give you a no-go in the above situation, to some dogs I've seen, even Labs that will look for anyway to get that bird without getting wet.

I don't know where on this spectrum the original poster wan't or needs to be. For us field trial folks having that super couragous water dog gives us a leg up going into the fourth series of a tough AA test.

Good to hear from you, hope to see you in Connell or Samish.

John


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## Spoonbill (Mar 16, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:


> This ought to put paid to any comments about a Toller not being big enough to handle a goose.
> 
> http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2010/01/top-40-hunting-dogs?photo=3
> 
> Eric


Wow, the goose is bigger than the dog. Beware though, I have a number of pictures of my dog with piles of geese he didn't retrieve . It took me quite a while to teach my toller (47lbs and fiesty) to carry a goose and as a result I never got any successful goose retrieves on land this year.

From a goose hunter's perspective I can see the following problems arising even if you had a toller with the desire to retrieve geese...
Plowed fields (think short legs, dragging a goose up and down furrows), and when you start getting into the numbers (not too uncommon even for average goose hunters these days), but of course then the hunter can always get out of the blind to help then.

I also wonder how my dog would deal with a wing shot goose. Thats kind of a difficult training situation to set up. Right now I'd bet he'd just chase it and bark from a distance.


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## mrosspa (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm not that familiar with the breed, but I've seen some very good Tollers where I train.


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## Paul Kartes (Jun 29, 2006)

There have been a lot of really good posts about the Tollers by a number of very well quilfied people. I do not think there is much more to add to it.

I just thought I would share a few items.

This video is from a few days ago Feb 2, 2010. We crazy enough to try and enter our first derby next weekend. Our goal is to go have fun, learn what it is all about and see if we can pick up a bird or two. I have run a "Q" a few times but never a Derby.

The Toller in the video is a few months shy of two years old and running and training well for the AKC and HRC hunt tests. I do not think his blinds are up to Master / Finsihed level yet so he has not run in those. He is 3 for 3 in senior and has his HR title.

You field guy might think this is nothing but we are still learning and so are the dogs. We have been running long singles and this is the dogs first attempt at such a long memory mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv3vBU_Vk9M


The subject of Tollers and Geese came up. Yes they can goose hunt, they can carry it. But if Geese is your primary hunting, this might not be the breed for you. I hunt a little bit of everything and have yet to have an issue with Geese with the Tollers.

Somebody mentioned there is not a split in the breed "Yet". Yes it is coming. There are some breeder trying not to allow this to happen. So do your reasearch and go out and watch some work. 

But the Toller in these pictures is the first Toller to every win Best of Breed at Westminster.





















This next picture gives you and idea of a Male / female with a pheasant. She is sitting back a bit. But there is a size diffrence per the standard so keep that in mind.


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## 2 tollers (Jul 22, 2006)

A lot of good information on Tollers in this thread from a variety of folks --- Spoonbill and K92line. 

I hunt birds a lot and would say that the majority of Tollers owners that I have spoken with that say they hunt are on the casual side for bird numbers and conditions that their dogs experience compared to our fall seasons. We have had four Tollers trained for hunting -- one was very poor (became the house pet) and the others have been good. Pointers have been covered on looking for solid field breeding lines, which there are much better choices around now than there were 25+ years ago when we got our first Toller. One thing I would do if I am not certain that the breeder is a hunter and understands what I am looking for is spend time with the litter and pick my own pup only after seeing the litter three or four different times. I want the out going pup that is consistently into trouble and on the go.

Tollers are different as retrievers. In my experience they are more sensitive to train and some can shut down fast on hard corrections. They like to be challanged and you need to keep the pace up with the training. They are smart and can figure out on their own how to cut corners or cheat a drill so a high standard has to be always in place. Do not give up or give in as they have you figured out and now they have become the trainer.

I do think Tollers mature about a year later than a lab -- which is similiar to our old Golden. Tollers bond to a family and do not jump into the first available open car door like a golden and at times they can be aloof. Some Tollers have a stubborn show me streak and this is a good discussion point with a breeder to see if it is recognized and what they are doing about it. 

In terms of bird hunting I find mine to do very well on upland, specs, white geese, smaller Canada's and ducks. We do hunt geese a fair amount and they do not have problems until we start to get into the large Canada's -- 13 # range. 

To answer:



Spoonbill said:


> Wow, the goose is bigger than the dog. Beware though, I have a number of pictures of my dog with piles of geese he didn't retrieve . It took me quite a while to teach my toller (47lbs and fiesty) to carry a goose and as a result I never got any successful goose retrieves on land this year.
> I also wonder how my dog would deal with a wing shot goose. Thats kind of a difficult training situation to set up. Right now I'd bet he'd just chase it and bark from a distance.


The white face female is 40# and the red face male is 45#. These are not in the pile yet just on the way in 




























These are in the pile and the red on the female is from the work 



















For wounded geese mine have been beat up on the water, lifted in the air by a wing on land and have gone back in for the retrieve. This I believe is due to the training time I spent with them on the first wounded birds and how we jointly managed the bad situations as learning experiences in the field.

Will we get another Toller --- absolutely for the type of hunting we do (upland, fields, smaller ponds) this is a good fit and if I decide when I retire to run HT's or FT's seriously instead of dabbling when time allows I will get a lab as well. If all I did was hunt geese (say 200 birds+ a year) I would seriously consider a Chessie. Each dog has its own merits and a person needs to pick the breed best suited for them and the work they want it to do.


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## Jim Person (Jan 5, 2003)

Although I have never hunted with a toller, I have sat in the chair and judged them. I can say one thing they have a lot of heart. They do a great job. And what a perfect size dog for riding in a canoe... I'd say Dynamite in a small package, Jim


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## brookf (Feb 9, 2010)

I had to chime in on this thead...I'm in the group of 1st time dog owners with no training experience, sorry if it is long.
I would just like to say that my experiences have been pretty much in line with spoonbills. We have a 20 month old toller that I just finished my first full hunting season with. 
I would like to say that when we contacted a breeder we first wanted a dog that would be good with my kids and second, since I was just getting into duck and pheasant hunting I wanted one that could retrieve and flush birds. I looked at labs but we wanted something smaller that my wife would be comfortable walking and would be ok in our small city house. 
I soon realized that training the dog for hunting was beyond my abilities and resources so I sent him for training. This turned out really well for obedience, my wife has no trouble controlling him in this city of world's worst trained dogs, but the trainer did not use many live birds so I had some problems getting him to pick up crippled pheasants. This was solved and he is starting to show some signs as a pretty decent field dog although he does poop out a bit after an hour or so. I usually plant a bird for him to find right away as a confidence boost and then let him go.
Ducks and water are a different story. He has many of the same water issues spoonbill was talking about. He was very hesitant to enter the water, even whining a bit when we were starting into waist deep water walking out to our hunting spot. Sometimes he would even hesitate with bumpers at the park lake by my house until you get him used to it. You could forget about him retrieving anything thrown in the surf or if he can't see it. I think I may have found a way to build his confidence with this, I now wade out with him in the surf and throw a bumper, it seems to be building his water confidence and sometimes I can get him out past the first break. One odd thing is that I did take him to the beach at night one time and the bumpers I use are the glow-in-the-dark type and he did pretty well, almost like seeing the bumper and not the surf made him braver. Keep in mind these are big ocean waves, he seems ok in the bay. 
For me duck season here in Nor Cal was pretty bad. We went out about 6 times, got skunked a couple and had mostly spoonies and divers the other times. Hunting in the reeds he is pretty antsy and unfocused. He chews on grass, rolls around, plays with spent shell casings and chases sparrows. I will probably send him off for training again towards the start of next season, but I really can't see him going out on a 100 yard blind retrieve and finding a wounded duck that may be swimming around or clinging to the bottom.
I will say one thing I am pretty sure of, that this breed will be increasing in popularity, IMO. We are constantly stopped by people asking about him and impressed by his obedience, size and good nature. I am fairly sure we have
converted a few, and the toller booth at the dog show was constantly packed with curious people, I think the only other booth that had more people was the bulldog booth.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Koolaid said:


> Just curious is anyone has seen any in action.
> I know Labs are king, but I'm a little bit different, so I want a retriever that's a little bit different.
> You don't need to tell me I won't be winning FTs with them...I'm not in the financial situation for that atm. Just want a nice little hunting companion.
> Thanks


Koolaid

I have seen one toller at a hunt test and the dog did some very nice work.

My advice to you is if you like the dog, get it. I have always felt that field trials are not the answer in deciding which type of dog is suitable for the type of hunting one might do. If your hunting is made for tollers then get one.

Labs do lab work, chessies do chessie work, goldens do golden work, and tollers do toller work.


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## Susan Young (Apr 13, 2004)

brookf said:


> For me duck season here in Nor Cal was pretty bad. We went out about 6 times, got skunked a couple and had mostly spoonies and divers the other times. Hunting in the reeds he is pretty antsy and unfocused. He chews on grass, rolls around, plays with spent shell casings and chases sparrows.


I have to say that you just described my 20 month old Lab this hunting season, as well as my Tollers during each of their first hunting season. Yesterday while we were waiting for geese, Molly was playing with the ice chunks we’d broken up around our blind. When I stopped her, she started pulling at sticks. When I stopped her, she tried to move over to annoy the other dog in the blind. When I stopped her, she went back to chewing on ice chunks. I think that’s more an age and experience thing that a Toller thing. We train them for hunting or hunt tests by taking the dog to line, sitting it, calling, and magically ducks immediately appear, are shot, and they always drop to the ground. Then we take that young dog out hunting where we wait, and wait, and wait. They get bored, and try to entertain themselves. They get better with experience.

I’ve had four Tollers. My first did not swim if he could help it, even though he was a summer puppy and had been exposed to water all his life. He loved to race into the water up to his belly and splash around, but he only swam when he found himself forced to do so. My next Toller, Tory, was doing puppy water marks up to 25 yards at 12 weeks. Her daughter, Annie, was a winter puppy so she was five months old before she was swimming, but she was able to pass her first hunt test (A Toller BRT) a week after her first strokes. Port, a Tory granddaughter, was doing simple water marks at 10 weeks. Note the miniature bumper she has. She was too small for small regular bumpers.











The first time I took Port to the ocean to pass shoot eiders, she was cautious about the waves, until the first bird was shot. 

Annie has no problem with water courage. We took her out hunting to celebrate her 10th birthday. My mistake, I didn’t have a collar on her. She was sent for the goose I dropped in the decoys, but once in the water she took off after Belle’s cripple instead, refusing all commands to return. She chased it almost across this river by the time Paul got the boat out and chased down and shot the cripple. Annie then refused a ride back, and swam all the way back to me where she shook off, lined herself up, and retrieved the original goose shown in this photo. I was a wreck, thinking she’d drown. She was fine.











But more than most Tollers, Annie and Port have had the luxury of exceptionally talented and supportive training groups. When young, they were trained almost exclusively on birds. When I hit roadblocks with them, we had the support, talent and help to work through them. 

I'll stick to my original comments. For upland hunting, I think Tollers excel. For the type of duck hunting I do, they can hold their own with Labs. For goose hunting on land, I'll prefer Molly simply because her size makes it easier to scoop up a huge Canada goose. Port can do it and I have photos of her carrying geese, but it's just easier for Molly to quickly grab a huge goose and therefore she gets it back into the blind quicker.


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## brookf (Feb 9, 2010)

Susan Young said:


> But more than most Tollers, Annie and Port have had the luxury of exceptionally talented and supportive training groups. When young, they were trained almost exclusively on birds. When I hit roadblocks with them, we had the support, talent and help to work through them.




That is one thing I am surely missing, most of the retriever clubs are far from me.


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## 2 tollers (Jul 22, 2006)

brookf said:


> That is one thing I am surely missing, most of the retriever clubs are far from me.


It is a huge asset with training for any type of retriever to be able to find a partner or a training group that is knowledgeable and be able to help you along. Check around and see if there are any other hunters in your area with a dog that you can get together to train with. Keep in mind the training that Susan and I refer to partnering with is most likely high level with all the gear and access to technical land and water.

I would say both of my Tollers do not have a problem with long swims as long as there is another shore.(longest water retrieve was 2 years ago with a far shore blind with a swim of about 300 yds across) Long out to sea work is another problem -- one dog fine the other no go's. This can be training or it can be the dog.

On the endurance for an upland hunt was this a hot day day? Mine lose the endurance when the outdoor temps go into the 80"s. If it is in the low 60's or lower they go all day for upland.


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## brookf (Feb 9, 2010)

2 tollers said:


> It is a huge asset with training for any type of retriever to be able to find a partner or a training group that is knowledgeable and be able to help you along. Check around and see if there are any other hunters in your area with a dog that you can get together to train with. Keep in mind the training that Susan and I refer to partnering with is most likely high level with all the gear and access to technical land and water.
> 
> I would say both of my Tollers do not have a problem with long swims as long as there is another shore.(longest water retrieve was 2 years ago with a far shore blind with a swim of about 300 yds across) Long out to sea work is another problem -- one dog fine the other no go's. This can be training or it can be the dog.
> 
> On the endurance for an upland hunt was this a hot day day? My lose the endurance when the outdoor temps go into the 80"s. If it is in the low 60's or lower they go all day for upland.


Thanks for the advice...I'm going to hunt him with a more experienced dog for the remainder of pheasant season and see if it helps him. The temp has not been very hot so I can't blame his lack of endurance on that. He seems to magically find more endurance when he finds a bird or if I let him "reset" in the crate for 10 minutes or so. i've jogged with him for 3+ miles and it barely gets him panting, so I think it more mental than pysical conditioning.


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## 2 tollers (Jul 22, 2006)

brookf said:


> He seems to magically find more endurance when he finds a bird or if I let him "reset" in the crate for 10 minutes or so.


You need to get him on a bird diet. If you have a release farm around might be good to spend a few dollars on birds for some afternoon fun. Also get some live pigeons and clip the wings so he can chase them around. When going out pheasant hunting with the other fellow leave your gun behind and handle your dog with him doing the shooting. Save the wings from the birds you get and tie them to bumpers. If you get a duck or two freeze one for training -- dead pheasants do not last long. Best is in the field right after the hunt, take the bird out a ways drop it and send the dog again on a retrieve, hide it in the grass and walk a different route back with a hunt it up command, get your buddy to toss it for you a few times. Lots of training can be done in the field when you finish hunting and have some fresh birds.


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## Susan Young (Apr 13, 2004)

brookf said:


> That is one thing I am surely missing, most of the retriever clubs are far from me.


We do very little training with our actual clubs. I went out and threw birds for hours for a field trialer group, and in exchange they'd throw for my dog. Sometimes we'd run their marks, sometimes they'd throw something shorter for my dog after they all ran the long marks. Plan on throwing for hours for the chance for your dog to run one set up and pick up three or four birds. You'll learn a ton just watching the advanced dogs.


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## Koolaid (Jan 14, 2010)

Haven't been on the site in a while. Figured I'd give an little update as I saw labguy likes to link this thread.

My toller is about 15 months now.
Very glad I made the choice I did.
Got him from a breeder that hunts and tests.

Can't keep him out of the water. No water courage issues at all. Took him out for a couple hunts last October and they went great. Best retrieve was probably a solid 200 yard swim after a cripple in some decent river current.

Has amazing bird drive. I had him running down some live pidgeons around 3 months. If he sees or thinks a bird is down he will hunt endlessly for it.

The only time he seemed relatively cold was on a boat ride back after a november day in the water.

Basically things are going very well. Only complaint are the morning I wake up to find that he has managed to push me off my pillow and claim it for himself.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

I saw a nice Toller this weekend at Waterloo Spring Hunt Test running a Senior Test.

Dog looked nice and did well! It looked almost like a red field golden till you saw the eyes & face.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Koolaid said:


> Haven't been on the site in a while. Figured I'd give an little update as I saw labguy likes to link this thread.
> 
> My toller is about 15 months now.
> Very glad I made the choice I did.
> ...


Koolaid: Thanks for the update. Glad he's working out for you. Sounds like a nice little dog.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Koolaid said:


> Haven't been on the site in a while. Figured I'd give an little update as I saw labguy likes to link this thread.
> 
> My toller is about 15 months now.
> Very glad I made the choice I did.
> ...


Don't forget to get him muddy. They like that. This one musta marked the bird.


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## Brian 23 (Mar 22, 2011)

I think to get a MH or a QAA dog you would have to be pretty damn good in the water.I have seen all types of retrievers have problems with the water,some are better than others.


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## jasonjcyr (Jun 4, 2010)

Koolaid said:


> Haven't been on the site in a while. Figured I'd give an little update as I saw labguy likes to link this thread.
> 
> My toller is about 15 months now.
> Very glad I made the choice I did.
> ...


Hey Koolaid,
What part of New Brunswick are you in, I need to plan a trip to visit my parent in my hometown of Edmundston, NB.


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## jasonjcyr (Jun 4, 2010)

HNTFSH said:


> Don't forget to get him muddy. They like that. This one musta marked the bird.


Gotta love the mud.


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## mnhntr (Jul 25, 2011)

I love my pup and he has been a joy to train so far.


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