# Westminster



## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Anybody watch last night? I caught the re-run this morn and saw some of the non-sporting and the herding breeds. I believe that in both those groups there were dogs in the arena who were actually working dogs that lived on farms or ranches and did what they were bread to do in their "real lives", and they looked fit and capable to me.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I am afraid to look at it. I am appalled at seeing German Shepherd Dogs that look like they are in pain and are dragging their rear ends around the ring. It's no wonder NYPD buys only from German breeders.

I would love to hear EdA comment on that.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I enjoyed watching the sporting group. Way too many spaniels tho


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Hey, I like spaniels!


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

The yellow Lab looked like an obese dwarf. Hard to look at. I wonder how many other breeds (besides German Shepards) I am not so familiar with have been bred to a conformation so far from what natural?


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

The one with the best groomer wins


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Stunning English setter in the sporting group. Moved like a dream.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Another toy group win kind of blew the ending for me. I loved the fox hound.


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## MSDOGS1976 (Mar 7, 2009)

rbr said:


> Another toy group win kind of blew the ending for me. I loved the fox hound.


Glad I didn't watch. Why do the toy's win so often?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Pretty strange group if you ask me, the people that is.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

I only got a glimps of the lab and after last year that was enough. I really liked the American fox hound and the wire haired pointer. Thought the little terrier was nice too. I would really like to see some of the coated dogs shaved down so you could get a good look at their structure. Nothing could be hidden on the 3 I mentioned.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I loved it, I even found myself rooting for Banana Joe in the end.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

MSDOGS1976 said:


> Glad I didn't watch. Why do the toy's win so often?


Because they are so stinking cute--little dog with big attitude and happy happy personality~~

by the time you get to that level--everyone has great structure and type--so the ATTITUDE makes the dog a winner. 

Did I mention how cute they are??!! 

Kudos to the Russell Terrier--its first time at Westminster and it gets a group 4--I just love the little Russells.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

a little Westminster humor .....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u-quGlpzGM


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## Jay-Bird (Jul 5, 2012)

Pals said:


> Because they are so stinking cute--little dog with big attitude and happy happy personality~~
> 
> by the time you get to that level--everyone has great structure and type--so the ATTITUDE makes the dog a winner.
> 
> ...



Is the dog not suppose to be judge against the "Breed" standard? If so how does and why would attitude play any part in the results?
JUNK


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Jay-Bird said:


> Is the dog not suppose to be judge against the "Breed" standard? If so how does and why would attitude play any part in the results?
> JUNK



AGAIN--when they get to this level *they all meet standard and type*. You don't get a dog into the BIS that is sub-standard. Sooooooooooo--what is going to catch the judges eye??? The ho-hum prance around the ring "I'm a nice dog." or the "BAADDA-BING HERE I AM WORLD!!!" dog??

JUNK?! --- wow. nice.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

It is what it is.

Too bad there is such a separation within many breeds.
Why this has happened to some breeds and not others is the real question that should be asked.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

I enjoyed it- Banana Joe was nice- moved very well and had that attitude.
I thought the niceste dog on the BIS ring was the Port Water Dog- 
Would have loved for the GWP to take it but has that ever happened? Sort of like a lab taking BIS, not gonna happen because theyre not flashy enough. Nice group though-


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

BOdine you should have warned me I was drinking my coffe and nearly choked. It was a great laugh.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Billie said:


> I enjoyed it- Banana Joe was nice- moved very well and had that attitude.
> I thought the niceste dog on the BIS ring was the Port Water Dog-
> Would have loved for the GWP to take it but has that ever happened? Sort of like a lab taking BIS, not gonna happen because theyre not flashy enough. Nice group though-


I'm glad the labs never take BIS, there hasn't been a good looking one at Westminster for decades


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## Jay-Bird (Jul 5, 2012)

Pals said:


> AGAIN--when they get to this level *they all meet standard and type*. You don't get a dog into the BIS that is sub-standard. Sooooooooooo--what is going to catch the judges eye??? The ho-hum prance around the ring "I'm a nice dog." or the "BAADDA-BING HERE I AM WORLD!!!" dog??
> 
> JUNK?! --- wow. nice.



I simply asked a couple questions and then gave my opinion... Im not sorry if it offended you or anyone else for that matter. I *PERSONALLY* happen to dis-like little yappy toy dogs that have no use but to prance around and serve absolutely no purpose *TO ME.
*


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Steve Shaver said:


> Pretty strange group if you ask me, the people that is.


That's what made Best In Show such a great movie. It was spot on.

Bert


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

OMG! That video was great! 

My boyfriend actually commented right away that all of the women had the same stocky build and big calves. I had never noticed. lol


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

makes me smile.... I swear people are WAY Too serious


moscowitz said:


> BOdine you should have warned me I was drinking my coffe and nearly choked. It was a great laugh.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I really liked the wirehair..but when did they start shaving their necks? Nicely balanced and a good mover. The Foxhound was also nice, as was the Bichon. Cool that the Old English Sheepdog made it all the way to Reserve BIS when it isn't even a CH yet!
I was appalled at the amount of crooked legged dogs...lots of pigeon toed dogs in the sporting group...the Brittany was one of the worst, the English Setter was crooked too, and the hocks on the Gordon reminded me of the GSDs....so sickle hocked.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Sharon 
Even though the English Setter had a nice side gait , he was very straight ! I watched breed judging and wrote a note about him , he had very little bend and an upright shoulder. Balanced but..... The dog has a BIS ! I was pulling for Swagger what a nice young dog!!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Jay-Bird said:


> I simply asked a couple questions and then gave my opinion... Im not sorry if it offended you or anyone else for that matter. I *PERSONALLY* happen to dis-like little yappy toy dogs that have no use but to prance around and serve absolutely no purpose *TO ME.
> *


Yappy litle dogs are generally so because their owner failed to train them properly - but little dogs serve a purpose - they provide dog smell when you can no longer deal with a big dog, they provide an early warning system (nothing happens unusual around our property without getting the attention of our little dog) that does not include yapping. When we go to the vet for checkups the comment is "this one is different, it has some manners" & as Nancy said they are cute, have personalities & provide companionship.

Your posting attitude says a lot about you.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

> I was appalled at the amount of crooked legged dogs...lots of pigeon toed dogs in the sporting group...the Brittany was one of the worst, the English Setter was crooked too, and the hocks on the Gordon reminded me of the GSDs....so sickle hocked.


My wife and I were watching the replay of last year on Sunday night. We have not shown dogs for over ten years. We were surprised at how poorly moving so many dogs were. It was easy to remember the good moving ones since there were so few. Many dogs looked great stacked up. But, as soon as they started to move they were sidewinding, mincing, etc. It was very easy to see how their structure caused them to have the gait they did.

Tom


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## bobkrimm (Aug 20, 2008)

Wall Street Journal had a story about Labs and Goldens at the show http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...SJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_Third#articleTabs=article


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## laurelwood (Dec 1, 2011)

The GWP is the #1 dog in the country for ALL breeds, he has right around 90 Best in Shows. And while there is no way you could possibly campaign a dog at that level (he shows 3-5 days a week every week) and do anything else with him, his owners do run hunt tests and field trials with their other GWPs.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Tom Watson said:


> The yellow Lab looked like an obese dwarf. Hard to look at. I wonder how many other breeds (besides German Shepards) I am not so familiar with have been to a conformation so far from what natural?


I *hate* the "labs" that they show in that stupid event. Maybe Mr. Bobby Lane could get Ali to show them what a working dog looks like. 

Not Ali, but another very good looking working dog (FC AFC CFC CAFC Mission Mountain Ninja "Ninja".)


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Yep American field bred dogs are so much better looking and physically suited to the job that it's not even comparable.

Bert


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Unfortunately what the general public sees on tv forms their ideas of what labs look like. I have a very good looking 2 year old male, (Eba and Ram lines) no bias here . I take him to work with me every day. Not a week goes by without a visitor or guest commenting on how sweet my lab "mix" is. The one or two times I have asked what made them think he was a mix, the reply was the same. Oh he is so much taller and his head isn't blocky! Shoot, this is one of the nicest proportioned dogs I've seen, not weedy, not whippet headed but I just smile and thank them for the complement.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

To me a lot of those dogs are just plain freaks. It's amazing what humans create through breeding. Or destroy the same way. My favorite group is the working dogs. I like the big suckers. Saint Bernard, Newfounland love them, Mastif. My favorite was the Leonberger.


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## PridezionLabs (Mar 8, 2009)

It CAN be done, this boy would put mud on your face leavin' the line and run like a bat outta heck there and back and would never get tired of it. He ran hard and determined. They told me he wouldn't win in the show ring and I saw the snickers as I walked up to the ring entrance that first time and they saw mine when I walked out WINNERS DOG over SPECIAL'S on some BEST IN SHOW HANDLERS...yeah baby... He remained competitive and kept taking those points... I was on a high with a boy that I felt was EVERYTHING I worked for. So instead of wishing someone else would get a better dog in the ring...why don't YOU get a better dog in the ring... and then take him to the field and show 'em that IT CAN BE DONE  Never a day passes that I don't wish I could throw for him one more time ....


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

Glad to know some of the midgets can do field work. Our field labs would not get to first base in the ring because they don't begin to conform to the "breed standard". I always said, though, that I didn't care what they look like if they could bring in the placements and had fun doing it.


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

This year the Lab with initials at both ends had some of it's best representation in years. Among those in the final cuts were 2 GRCH/MH's and a CH/SH with 3 MH passes. 2 of those were females. While I am not a fan of what is in the ring and the fact that most don't work their Sporting group Labrador, Keifer was far better than what has been in the past. Along with last years winner who was a lovely more moderate female who now has her JH. I for one hope the trend continues and the age of a more moderate labrador returns


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## BILL NE NY (Aug 2, 2011)

Why don't they judge the labs by the akc standards and not by what is fashionable.


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## Jen Marenich (Jan 20, 2013)

Maybe a bit off-topic... but has anyone ever seen the movie "Best In Show"? It is an older movie now... but hilarious...


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

"Best in Show" is one of my all time favorites. You're right, side splitting funny!!


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

BILL NE NY said:


> Why don't they judge the labs by the akc standards and not by what is fashionable.


Why don't they reward dogs that are in good physical shape? Sporting dogs should be lean and muscular and appear as though they can handle the rigors of hard day in the field and love it. To win in that group they should look like they can work even if they don't actually do any work. 

Maybe, to achieve a certain level in the sporting dog show ring they should pass some test of competency in a corresponding field test. JH, WC or equivalent is a reasonable and easily attained for a minimally trained dog.


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## MSDOGS1976 (Mar 7, 2009)

Pals said:


> Because they are so stinking cute--little dog with big attitude and happy happy personality~~
> 
> by the time you get to that level--everyone has great structure and type--so the ATTITUDE makes the dog a winner.
> 
> Did I mention how cute they are??!!


Unfortunately the judges must agree with you. But by those standards, the little puffed up dogs will win a majority of the time because most have big attitudes. They should rename the competition for what it is then........The Puffy Dog Show with Big Attitudes. 

As for as being so stinky cute........that's open for debate.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

It turns out the judge for the Sporting Group goes to my church and lives 5 miles from me in VA. I did not know she and her husband were into dogs. I'll have to talk with her about conformation next time I see her.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

The AKC breed standard says a dog should be 22 1/2 to 24 1/2 inches at the withers (21 1/2 to 23 1/2 for bitches). One half inch either way is a disqualification. The animal should be short-coupled with the brisket extending to the elbows. There you have it...the freaks in the show ring.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Let's just pretend for a moment there is more than one breed in the world. Which one do you refer to?
The golden retriever standard says the dog should be 23-24 inches for dogs, one inch either way is allowed but a serious fault, more than 1 inch is a DQ. Weight should be 65-75 pounds. The length to height ratio should be 12:11. 
A 23-1/2 inch dog weighing in at a lean 70 pounds? Nothing freaky about it at all.
I love the judge who judged the sporting group. (because she gave my dog a win, lol). She actually is a very good judge who likes dogs with good movement. 



Tom Watson said:


> The AKC breed standard says a dog should be 22 1/2 to 24 1/2 inches at the withers (21 1/2 to 23 1/2 for bitches). One half inch either way is a disqualification. The animal should be short-coupled with the brisket extending to the elbows. There you have it...the freaks in the show ring.


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

My dog is 23 inches and 73 pounds.Would never be accused as a dwarf.I would love to get the stats on one of the more conformationally correct dual CH in labs.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

OH YES !!! Do that !!


Sabireley said:


> It turns out the judge for the Sporting Group goes to my church and lives 5 miles from me in VA. I did not know she and her husband were into dogs. I'll have to talk with her about conformation next time I see her.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Let's just pretend for a moment there is more than one breed in the world.


 Why would we want to do that????


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

2tall said:


> Unfortunately what the general public sees on tv forms their ideas of what labs look like. .


Surprised they would call your lighter style labs mixes. I would argue that most people perception of a Lab is the Hollywood Marley/Old Yellar/Sit BoBo, Cottonail/Advantix Puppy type, your basic long nosed backyard American Lab. I'd say that when most people are first shown a Show-type Lab, they would be more likely to call that a lab/rottweiler mix of some sort, this is what I thought the first time I saw them at a Lab Club Conformation/OB event, I couldn't believe how big they were, the 8wk old pups were twice the size (shear bulk) of my skinny 12w old pup.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Guess what! Just happened again. But shortly after, I saw this guys 2 labs. They would be right at home at Westminster. Poor Chief, he doesn't think he's funny looking because he is not a Vietnamese Pot Belly Pig.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I've been asked any number of times what kind of dog my boy is, or what he's mixed with. When I say he's a golden retriever, a few people have said they thought he must be a mix because they have a golden retriever at home that doesn't look anything like him!


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

When were the last AKC dual champion labradors? There hasn't been a dual CH golden in over 25 years.

edit to add...here's a cool website I just found: http://www.justamere.com/newsletter/titleddogs.asp




kona's mom said:


> My dog is 23 inches and 73 pounds.Would never be accused as a dwarf.I would love to get the stats on one of the more conformationally correct dual CH in labs.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Whats with all the hating on the little dogs?  

The terrier group is actually my favorite at Westminster. Its a dog show--a whole different BREED of folks there, I call them Foo-Foo shows for a reason. Mostly I stand in utter amazement whenever I go show my terriers. I've had a ball at the shows--but then I'm there for kicks and grins-not to mention the fact that I like being the turd in the punchbowl.  I'm not any happier about the split I see in some breeds, nor the extremes that people tend to put up--the flavor of the month. The question was asked why the toys seem to win a lot--and they do. Its because they are so stinkin cute!!! Poofy or not--they are winners!!


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## dr tim (Feb 11, 2013)

I have seen some mighty tough woodsman with little dogs.


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## Jim Person (Jan 5, 2003)

There was a yellow lab bitch that came close to making the final cut that is a MH. I liked the german wire haired and the wire hair griffon.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Just to clear up what seems to be a common misconception, the AKC doesn't have anything to do with setting the standards for labs, nor for any other breed.
The standards are set by the parent club, not the AKC. So Labrador Retriever Club of America, or Golden Retriever Club of America, etc., are in charge of the standards. They are also in charge of educating the judges to what the correct standard is, and how to judge the breed.




BILL NE NY said:


> Why don't they judge the labs by the akc standards and not by what is fashionable.


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## Zeppelin86 (May 30, 2012)

My BLM would be considered to be more conformational in appearance as his parents were more show dogs with some hunt test/field trial in their blood. He gets the occasional "is that a full blooded lab?" or "that thing looks like a pit-bull" (comes in handy to scare off people). I think some of you take the Westminster deal too personal. Just because you think your dog is "pretty," but doesn't look like the one in Westminster, that doesn't delineate into the AKC saying your dog isn't a good looking dog. It's all relative to personal opinion I feel like, definitely not something worth getting your blood pressure up over. Someone mentioned the Lab looked like an obese dwarf and another than a sporting dog should be lean and athletic. Well that I say "What is athletic?" Usain Bolt is a lean guy probably has 5% body fat. I think we can all agree he is an "athlete," and excels at what he does. By the same standards, Adrian Peterson (when healthy) is more bulky compared to Bolt, but mainly due to increased muscle mass, BUT I think we can all agree he is an "athlete" as well. Now I'm sure AP could run the 100, but Bolt would probably beat him. Bolt could probably put on the pads and run through a defensive line, but he probably wouldn't do as well as AP. My point being, they both are athletes, one may be faster and one stronger, but that doesn't mean the other isn't "strong", or "fast" respectively for what they do. Just because one dog may be more lean and "fast" doesn't mean the dog that's more "bulky" isn't fast enough to get the job done.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Pals said:


> Whats with all the hating on the little dogs?
> 
> The terrier group is actually my favorite at Westminster. )


Nope the HOUNDS are where it's @. WOOOOOOOWOOOO


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

I have some sighthounds that were put in the toy group, but never win the group because they are not cute compared to the fluffy little dogs. I heard several years ago they were going to put the Italian greyhounds in the hound group and I was so happy. Put them with the big hounds and they look so cute that surely one year they would make it out of group on top. They are not big yappy dogs, in fact the voice is deep and would surprise most people that the little skinny dog was the one barking.

As for Labradors I have a field breed Labrador that is on the short side, not a dwarf or a pig. She is fast on land and water. She is also very agile. We do not know why she did not fall been her parents in size like all her siblings, but a lot of people like her smaller frame that is all muscle. They think she would be easier to handle, until they see her run in the field or around an agility ring. On a standard NADAC course she did 4.94 YPS and in jumpers she did 5.17 YPS, both courses I had to stop her a couple times to make sure she did not knock a bar because of the angles. She did this 4 months shy of 5 years old. Her weaves were 4.62 YPS. I have not done NADAC in many years and was told her times were very good. Sometimes it is more important to have a big heart. Happy Valentine's Day and I love my chocolate girls!! 

Terri


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Terri said:


> I have some sighthounds that were put in the toy group, but never win the group because they are not cute compared to the fluffy little dogs. I heard several years ago they were going to put the Italian greyhounds in the hound group and I was so happy. Put them with the big hounds and they look so cute that surely one year they would make it out of group on top. They are not big yappy dogs, in fact the voice is deep and would surprise most people that the little skinny dog was the one barking.
> 
> As for Labradors I have a field breed Labrador that is on the short side, not a dwarf or a pig. She is fast on land and water. She is also very agile. We do not know why she did not fall been her parents in size like all her siblings, but a lot of people like her smaller frame that is all muscle. They think she would be easier to handle, until they see her run in the field or around an agility ring. On a standard NADAC course she did 4.94 YPS and in jumpers she did 5.17 YPS, both courses I had to stop her a couple times to make sure she did not knock a bar because of the angles. She did this 4 months shy of 5 years old. Her weaves were 4.62 YPS. I have not done NADAC in many years and was told her times were very good. Sometimes it is more important to have a big heart. Happy Valentine's Day and I love my chocolate girls!!
> 
> Terri


If you were talking about a little dog I would think YPS was Yaps per Second. Since it is a lab, enlighten me. I know nothing about agility. What is YPS?


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

YPS is yards per second in agility. Those are some nice times, although I know nothing about NADAC times and how they compare to AKC times.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

hotel4dogs said:


> YPS is yards per second in agility. Those are some nice times, although I know nothing about NADAC times and how they compare to AKC times.


So they measure the course and divide the yards into the time? Or do the have splits for each obstacle where they divide the yards into the time?


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## canebrake (Oct 23, 2006)

Sabireley said:


> So they measure the course and divide the yards into the time? Or do the have splits for each obstacle where they divide the yards into the time?


The agility course is set and the judge measures the course for the different jump heights (example a lab would take a wider path than a yorkie) You are correct the yards are divided into specified numbers set by the agility venue (AKC, NADAC, USDAA, etc)


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## jollycurl (Mar 4, 2008)

laurelwood said:


> The GWP is the #1 dog in the country for ALL breeds, he has right around 90 Best in Shows. And while there is no way you could possibly campaign a dog at that level (he shows 3-5 days a week every week) and do anything else with him, his owners do run hunt tests and field trials with their other GWPs.


Really? I had no idea Victor Malzoni, who lives in Colombia, ran hunt test and field trials. Cool! I do know he spent a boatload of money last year, including a private plane, to make sure that Oakley finished as the #1 show dog in the States. He also owns the #4 dog, a Wire-Haired Fox Terrier.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Just to clear up what seems to be a common misconception, the AKC doesn't have anything to do with setting the standards for labs, nor for any other breed.
> The standards are set by the parent club, not the AKC. So Labrador Retriever Club of America, or Golden Retriever Club of America, etc., are in charge of the standards. They are also in charge of educating the judges to what the correct standard is, and how to judge the breed.


Though it is true that the parent clubs set standards, the AKC board still votes to approve or disapprove of the Parent club developed standard. If they don't like a standard, they will send it back to the parent club for revision until they do. 

Long live the moderate Lab, may it someday return to prominence in all aspects of the breed, in the show, field, blind, couch, etc...


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