# HRC Question for RTF members



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I have a question for some of you club leaders/members. I want to run Weezie in a started event. Before I get bashed about wanting to run a Jack Russell: I want to run her for kicks, fun and because she can do the work. Just one weekend, close to home. UKC has informed me she is not allowed to run because she is not a gun dog(try telling her that). The UKC rep was very nice and I have no complaints at all with them. 

I have had several people tell me that they have seen all kinds of dogs running at HRC events--so my question is this: Will any clubs in Illinois or neighboring states let me run her in the started? I know she can't get a "title", I don't care about that. I would just like to see what she does and spend a fun weekend with the dogs.


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## Brent McDowell (Jul 2, 2008)

Could you run the dog as a test dog?


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Personally I would not let you run her.................

*WHO CAN PARTICIPATE*

UKC, Inc. Licensed HRC Hunt Tests are open to all purebred hunting retrievers, versatile Gun Dog breeds and Airedale Terriers. UKC Permanently Registered dogs and those in the Limited Privilege (LP) Program will be given preference over all non-UKC registered dogs of current HRC Members meeting the Club’s Entry Deadlines entering in all events. Non-UKC registered dogs are able to participate in a Licensed Hunt Test (no points will be awarded unless registration requirements are met).


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## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

Brent McDowell said:


> Could you run the dog as a test dog?


Maybe bye dog on the honor series?


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Sean H said:


> Maybe bye dog on the honor series?


Again

*WHO CAN PARTICIPATE

UKC, Inc. Licensed HRC Hunt Tests are open to all purebred hunting retrievers, versatile Gun Dog breeds and Airedale Terriers. UKC Permanently Registered dogs and those in the Limited Privilege (LP) Program will be given preference over all non-UKC registered dogs of current HRC Members meeting the Club’s Entry Deadlines entering in all events. Non-UKC registered dogs are able to participate in a Licensed Hunt Test (no points will be awarded unless registration requirements are met).


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I would not go for it. Allowing you to run her would not be in the spirit of the HRC rules. Running as test dog would not be the proper thing to do either for many reasons. Bye dog (of course no bye dog in started) no, you running your dog for fun could screw someone else’s dog up.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Bill-I get that. I heard a schaunzer ran seasoned here a few weeks ago, so I thought I would ask. I will pay of course. By dog - not in started. I have seen a boarder collie run, how is that any different?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bill Davis said:


> Again
> 
> *WHO CAN PARTICIPATE
> 
> UKC, Inc. Licensed HRC Hunt Tests are open to all purebred hunting retrievers, versatile Gun Dog breeds and Airedale Terriers. UKC Permanently Registered dogs and those in the Limited Privilege (LP) Program will be given preference over all non-UKC registered dogs of current HRC Members meeting the Club’s Entry Deadlines entering in all events. Non-UKC registered dogs are able to participate in a Licensed Hunt Test (no points will be awarded unless registration requirements are met).


I'd let this dog run as test dog at the very least.

I've trained with her and have thrown full-sized mallards for this dog and she can do started work.

I'm unclear from the above paragraph on the definition of "open to". My interpretation of the above is that a Jack Russel could qualify as a non-UKC registered dog. Jack Russels are a sporting breed, I believe. I know there are Field Trials held by some organization that runs Jacks. If the test still had vacancies after all UKC registered dogs for which the event is "open", it sure seems to me that the dog could run, but would earn no points...ever.

Personally, I think the paragraph quoted has some grey (or is it gray) in it.

If I were on a hunt committee, and Nancy wanted to run the shortie Jack, and we were not full, I'd vote for letting her run. It hurts nobody, It embodies the spirit of what HRC is supposed to be about.

I remember years ago when Robon Mongold had a really nice Border Collie named Travis. Jack Jagoda bent the NAHRA rules and Travis became the first and only MHR and GMHR Border Collie in the program. Some NAHRA purists at the time were very upset by this...I never got that.

It did not hurt anyone...it was cool. I am honored to have had the privelege to hold the scorebook more than once while Travis ran.

Bill, I'm not coming after you and I can see your interpretation. But I'm not sure if your interpretation is exactly what the authors of the book had in mind. I'm pretty sure that ANY sporting breed can run in an event, but not all can earn points. Again, I think a Jack could be considered a sporting breed. Heck, an Airedale can apparently earn an HRC title...if you let a tall "terrier" run, why not let a short "terrier" run?

Chris


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## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

Bye dog wouldn't have to be in started. The honor dog only has to honor the first bird retrieved...


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Why would you think it would be OK to run in HRC but not AKC ?


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I remember years ago when Robon Mongold had a really nice Border Collie named Travis. Jack Jagoda bent the NAHRA rules and Travis became the first and only MHR and GMHR Border Collie in the program. Some NAHRA purists at the time were very upset by this...I never got that.
> 
> It did not hurt anyone...it was cool. I am honored to have had the privelege to hold the scorebook more than once while Travis ran.
> 
> Chris


It was Travis I was thinking of when I was going to suggest Nancy run NAHRA instead.

But-I do remember being at one of the tests where Travis ran and you're right-some folks wouldn't give Robin the time of day. (Same folks that I don't think appreciated my big ol' no pedigree, Amish trained Golden -their loss!). The only thing he wasn't was a sporting breed, but he could do the work with the best of 'em.

M


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

I would think if it was the very last dog then it couldn't affect the other dogs running so what's the harm as long as it's understood that there will no points or titles?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Send me your email address....I know a person who ran a blue heeler in HRC events here in CO, his experience may help you....

FOM


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## Brad Overstreet (Feb 20, 2008)

I would contact the hunt test sec. and the judges. Come to an agreement and pay up. Most clubs make so little anyway I think they would like to have your donation regardless. MY GUESS ( I'm guessing) is you want to run your dog because you think it is cool she/he can do the work. I understand that. So really you are just paying 50.00 to show off. I personally would take 50.00 and find something else to do with it. Go buy a couple live birds and shoot them for the dog. My bet is the dog would like that a lot more.

Cheers,
Brad

P.S. I think it is great you have a jack that can do the work.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I really don't think the judges can approve this and shouldn't be called. If I have a question if the dog is an eligible breed, I would get with the secretary/committee to discuss. It should be the HT secretaries responsibility or discuss with HT committee at time of entry. As a judge I don't want to be called by someone who might run under me.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Look--I'm not trying to start another bashing/scare the newbies thread. 

I would be willing to run her last, pay double whatever. NO points, no ribbon, I expect nothing--just bring a smile and let her get a dead duck. The reason I ask about HRC and not AKC is that there have been 'others' running started. It's started, I'm not asking to run the grand for pete's sake. I will be running the boys(fluffs) in finished as well. It's only for fun and I wouldn't dream of not paying or screwing up someone else's dog. I guess it was okay for the Schnauzer to run because it was black right? Sorry--couldn't help myself. How about the Airdale's--Chris is right it is just a taller terrier. Not near as cute as Weez. Anyway--sorry to have insulted the purists.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Over the last 18+ years I have had the privilege of judging Started quite a few times and I have judged stranger dogs than Jacks. I may be wrong,(not the first time) but the last sentence "Non-UKC registered dogs are able to participate in a Licensed Hunt Test (no points will be awarded unless registration requirements are met). Maybe they will have so much fun that they will get a Chocolate Lab later on to run for points.

This organization was started to to have fun with the dogs and that is the reason that I have remained with HRC (I have run and judged the others) for 23 years. Run the Jack and enjoy, no points, but a lot of FUN. Bill Watson 2024L
________
Unique Bowl


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Just list it as a miniature lab-mix for breed...hahahahaha.


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

duckdawg27....AKC is very specific....retriever breeds only, and they list them.



as for HRC, I have run my GSP, and even got it a title.

and I will say two things:

1) for the most part (90%) the people were cool about it...I caught some grief, but no serious prejudice or anything like that

2) the dog was not cut out for it in the big picture. And I say the same thing will happen with the Jack. 

let me explain......my GSP is an excellent retriever, and has retrieved hundreds of ducks and geese (he's well over 150 Canadas alone..and yes I keep track..there's a list on the fridge every season that gets updated when we come home) he has hunted from a boat, field blind, marsh blind, breakwalls etc...all for ducks and geese. He has run hunter's trials for upland birds, and has even won in those.....but :

holding blinds......long waits between runs.....re-used birds....limited action (2 birds and done) etc are all things that a high strung dog like a gsp, or a jack, or a border collie, etc that go against the true nature of the dog.

Yes, they can do it....but really, why should they........

Bill Davis (who seems like the only 'no vote' on this thread) has seen my GSP run, and as a matter of fact, was one of the guys making sure I got wet when he titled....and he'll tell ya, the dog can do it, but he sure didn't look like it was fun to him.....it was stressful. This dog delivers to hand in the field 99% of the time..and he would not at the test without a lot of extra effort and coaxing.....Test environments are not something that every breed is cut out for....

I learned the hard (stubborn) way, that GSP's are one of them....and I believe there are several others, including Jacks...


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

MM....yes that's why I asked it that way. The original poster has dogs listed with AKC titles and I felt like there was an ulterior agenda to the post/question. 
Why would someone want to pay double entry fee (as offered) just to run for a ribbon in a different organization from where they normally run? 

I really like HRC but, I see that there is potential for harm in allowing non-registered dogs to run. Although well meaning in their intent, perception can mean everything.
Although I'm still not sure of the original poster's intent, it is possible to see that someone might/would run an obviously laughable dog in an HRC event just to do such harm.
HRC has of course left the door open to possiblity here for all sorts of ridicule from outsiders and insiders alike. If a Jack Russell can run then so can a Labradoodle etc. Why would they/we want to have that condition exist.
I could send in an entry and for breed list "Lab Mix" and run a Registered Labradoodle. It would not be able to earn points but that wouldn't matter much. Some body's post would read "Registered Labradoodle Wins Ribbon at HRC Event"
For program that strives to be taken more seriously, I don't think that will win hearts and minds.

Currently the only "legitimate by the current rules" reason I can see for not allowing a dog like a Jack Russell to enter would be that since HRC limits the number of entries, it might/could knock a legimate entry out of the opportunity. (some clubs do max out their entries). If the entries are not full......let him run.

Don't want to cause a fuss just my little 'ol opinion.


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## Brent Keever (Jun 14, 2008)

Down here in August we have a mock Hunt test it is put on by our club at the Gueydan Duck Festival. No points are giving it is judged more like a field trial. They do have started, seasoned and finished test. It is hot very hot the grounds are pretty nice though I dont think anyone would have a problem if you ran your Jack there. I know its a long hall but the festival has good music and not to mention food. And alot of people come out to watch. Heck I would not mind if you jack ran in our started test some may think different but I would not have a problem with it.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Does not the quoted section refer to two different issues?

>>UKC, Inc. Licensed HRC Hunt Tests are open to all purebred hunting retrievers, versatile Gun Dog breeds and Airedale Terriers.<<

This tells us which breeds are eligible to compete.

>>UKC Permanently Registered dogs and those in the Limited Privilege (LP) Program will be given preference over all non-UKC registered dogs of current HRC Members meeting the Club’s Entry Deadlines entering in all events.<<

This tells us that of those eligible to compete, certain categories of dogs will be given a preference if the spaces are limited. 

I really don't care but it looks like you'd have to declare the JRT as a "versatile gun dog breed" for the dog to compete. As to the test dog issue, should test dogs not be eligible to compete? Dunno. In AKC they must be.

Eric


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Ulterior Motive? What is this spy class 101? For the record I've run HRC events in the past and will in the future. Since I also judge AKC hunt tests as well as run them, I'm very aware of the guidelines and regs. As for HRC--this whole topic is a grey area. I hope to have the boys in finished after Ryder get's his MH--money and time not withstanding. Ruckus has finished points, I got sick and did not finish him--big deal. I don't have an agenda, *am not out to cause trouble*. Figured I would be close to home running the boys and simply asked if a local club would let her run, since she goes everywhere with us and here is the kicker Ken--she is very capable of doing a started mark and other breeds run these. I'm not asking for anything that has not been done in the past, my mistake is that I'm asking. 

THAT is the only reason I asked. She is not a mix breed--so don't even go there with the labradoodle crap. 

***Thanks Brent--that sounds like a good time--my only fear is that she would be a scooby snack for a gar!! I'll find a fun event up here, heck maybe I'll even host it at our farm.

espionageflunkee regards,


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Eric
The very next line....
Non-UKC registered dogs are able to participate in a Licensed Hunt Test (no points will be awarded unless registration requirements are met). 
....is where the loophole exist.
They are technically not running for points but they can still run.


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Pals said:


> espionageflunkee regards,


Sorry Nancy,,,I flunked my class as well......never know these days....there is more to this topic than meets the eye.
Certainly not trying to equate your dog to a 'doodle.


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## Brent Keever (Jun 14, 2008)

Nancy your dog would be just fine. The water work here would be in a rice field no gar there lol. Good luck if I could afford to my wife and I would come up to your fun day with our pup.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

That's alright Ken--you don't know me and I shouldn't have snapped at you. I'm the least likely 'spy' for either registry/group you could imagine. I just like to work the dogs and no one is more surprised then me by this little dog. 

I guess she'll stay in the truck except for fun events and training. I don't want to cause any issues or get anyone in trouble.


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Bill Davis said:


> *WHO CAN PARTICIPATE*
> 
> UKC, Inc. Licensed HRC Hunt Tests are open to all purebred hunting retrievers, versatile Gun Dog breeds and Airedale Terriers. UKC Permanently Registered dogs and those in the Limited Privilege (LP) Program will be given preference over all non-UKC registered dogs of current HRC Members meeting the Club’s Entry Deadlines entering in all events. Non-UKC registered dogs are able to participate in a Licensed Hunt Test (no points will be awarded unless registration requirements are met).


 
I have never run an HRC event, so take this for what it is worth (nothing).

If I were to interpret the rules above I woud say that sentence one says which Breeds can participate. Sentence 2 says, of the eligible Breeds, UKC Registered and UKC LP dogs get preference over dogs without those designations. Finally, sentence 3 says, of the approved breeds, even dogs not registered with th UKC can run, but can not get points, unless/until registered with the UKC.

It seems pretty clear to me. Since all statements are in a single paragraph, the 2nd and 3rd sentences are not Stand alone statements. I do, however, see how it could be misinterpreted.

If UKC/HRC Hunt test commitees choose to read the statements as stand alone requirements, well, its their club. I would recommend that this rule be clariied one way or the other, so that the spirit and wording of the rule is clear to all.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

duckdawg27 said:


> MM....yes that's why I asked it that way. The original poster has dogs listed with AKC titles and I felt like there was an ulterior agenda to the post/question.
> Why would someone want to pay double entry fee (as offered) just to run for a ribbon in a different organization from where they normally run?
> 
> I really like HRC but, I see that there is potential for harm in allowing non-registered dogs to run. Although well meaning in their intent, perception can mean everything.
> ...


Mark Sheppard ran a nice Rottweiler/Lab mix named Cody in the NAHRA tests and had a ball. It didn't hurt anybody. That dog was the equivalent of a GMHR in terms of tests that the dog "passed".

It was fun...

Chris


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Well I tried to keep out of this but I can't. HRC was one of the biggest things I looked forward to do in the Spring and Fall besides hunt. Now thanks to a few "HOLIER THAN THOU" a$$holes I do not even go to HT's anymore. Thanks to a few people that are more interested in gossip than in good friendship can make it hard for the rest. I have many friends that I don't get to see anymore because I don't want to get upset because of my health because I may run across a few of the above mentioned a$$holes. 

Now that off my chest I think it would be really cool to see a Jack doing started work. I have a Rat Teerror....LOL that thinks he is a Lab. Dang little feller even is as much fun as a Lab. Most folks that I think a lot of probably would at a training session even run anytime in the mix....


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Mark Sheppard ran a nice Rottweiler/Lab mix named Cody in the NAHRA tests and had a ball. It didn't hurt anybody. That dog was the equivalent of a GMHR in terms of tests that the dog "passed".
> It was fun...
> Chris


Easy to see that my intended point was lost, sorry. Not worth trying to make it again.
I'm sure "Cody" did a fine job and I'm sure everyone had fun.


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

FOM said:


> Send me your email address....I know a person who ran a blue heeler in HRC events here in CO, his experience may help you....
> 
> FOM


 
Yep, we do things slightly different in Region 13. One of our judges has a JRT that runs him as test dog on occasion. Also one of our Region 13 breeders runs her JRT once in awhile, as does our FR for that part of the region.

It was great fun watching that Blue Heeler. I recall the judge rematking, as it went after a mark in the water with just it's head and two pointed ears gliding over the water, "Hey look! That looks like Batman." The entire gallery was ROTGLTAO.

UB


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I say let the little guy run. As long as he isn't keeping anyone else from entering due to numbers, what's the problem? As for the registration and rules thing: suppose sombody gave me a Lab puppy, without papers, because it was seriously mismarked...let's say black with the brown rottweiler spots and shading (yes, that can show up in Labs). How does anyone know if the dog is purebred Lab? Can I run it because I say it's purebred?

A few years back at a pointing dog fun trial...2 dog braces, 20 minutes in duration, six birds placed, six shells per gunner and the dogs had to retrieve to hand, winner was the brace with the shortest time, most birds and fewest shells used...we were short one dog. I offered to run my JRT, Russell, with the remaining dog. Lots of laughter and good natured joking....but that little sucker is a bird dog, let me tell you. And we were braced with a nice setter. Nobody was laughing 20 minutes later, because our brace won. Russell found, pointed and retrieved four of the six birds, and this was in heavy CRP. He's also worked as a pick-up dog on cripples on quail rigs in South Texas.

Seems discriminatory to let one terrier run and not another...and how about standard poodles? They aren't in the sporting group, but they can run.


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

This thread is so rediculous. Of course you can run your JRT, Nancy. Those that get their nose bent outa joint because of what others might think, are way off base. How the hayel did you run into some of those jerks, Otie?

Read Bill Watson's post, folks. then re-read it again. HRC is for fun AND testing hunting retrievers. But some think they are a step above the trialing game. Get a life!...and straighten out your nose.

UB

PS...Region 13 has always interpreted that regulation as you stated, Bill.


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Seems discriminatory to let one terrier run and not another...and how about standard poodles? They aren't in the sporting group, but they can run.
__________________
Sharon Potter

Red Branch Kennels
Team Huntsmith 

Speaking of Standard Poodles, they DO run in HRC...AND...AKC...LEGALLY!

UB...wondering where is Bob May when you need him???


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

As long as the handler has head to toe camo - what kind of dog or even how good a job he does is irrelevant.

Costume party regards

Bubba


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Bubba said:


> As long as the handler has head to toe camo - what kind of dog or even how good a job he does is irrelevant.
> 
> Costume party regards
> 
> Bubba


LOL can always count on you for a good laugh! :lol:


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

i think most clubs would let you run started with no points recieved


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

Why not put this issue to rest and simply call Claudene at the HRC and ask her for a decision. I am sure she will have a answer for you?

*Claudene at **[email protected] **- (432)267-1659 - fax (214)261-5166.*


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## Scott Jinks (Feb 21, 2006)

Nancy,

If you can shoot a duck and the dog retrieve it, It sounds like a gun dog to me. You come on down to Trail of Tears HRC this September and run started. The test will be near Cape Girardeau, MO. We will take your money anytime! Anybody gives you any greif, just look me up!

Scott Jinks


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## Alamosa (May 25, 2005)

My situation was not so much different from what yours might be. The dog I ran was a blue heeler but she is a runt so probably only slightly taller than your Jack Russell.

I registered her with HRC as a limited priviledge dog and she was able to earn a SHR title with HRC. 
NAHRA would not award her a title but they sent me a very nice letter of congratulations acknowledging that she had met all the performance requirements for the title however would not receive it due to her breed. A appreciated that they made that effort. 
I believe you would be eligible to earn the brass band for your region if you run NAHRA. That is kind of a neat thing to shoot for. 

My own reasons for getting involved were simply that I thought it would be a way to improve the dogs retrieving skills. 
I had never been to a hunt test but had read the rules and thought my dog could pass. When I realized that these fine retrievers had come from all over the country I was thinking 'What have I gotten myself into?'. 
I could hear people saying stuff like "Did you hear some guy entered a cattle dog here today?"
It was nice to get a pass that first day.

Sooner or later you will run into some breed predudice. My dog was failed on the test that was her career best performance. That cost us our only opportunity at the NAHRA brass band. Don't sweat that stuff. We met so many nice people and had so much fun at hunt tests that I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. My dog had the most fun of all. I wish she hadn't gotten old or we'd still be out there.

That dog that looked like Batman, that was my dog.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Alamosa said:


> My situation was not so much different from what yours might be. The dog I ran was a blue heeler but she is a runt so probably only slightly taller than your Jack Russell.
> 
> I registered her with HRC as a limited priviledge dog and she was able to earn a SHR title with HRC.
> NAHRA would not award her a title but they sent me a very nice letter of congratulations acknowledging that she had met all the performance requirements for the title however would not receive it due to her breed. A appreciated that they made that effort.
> ...


Go Batman,

When we get to the point that we're turning away entries because of the "breed" of dog we're running, we're not running a hunt test.

Thanks for posting this.

Nancy, anytime I'm around, I throw all the marks you want for Ms. Shortie-Jack!

Hugs and smiles,

Chris

P.S. we're packing right now for Mid IL....Come on Bus-Turd!


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## tankerlab (Feb 26, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Go Batman,
> 
> When we get to the point that we're turning away entries because of the "breed" of dog we're running, we're not running a hunt test.
> 
> ...


I tried 20 times to post a reply but kept getting kicked back to sign in, even though I am signed in... so this was the only way I could get on here, No reason to quote Chris here. Just wanted to post this.
I believe the HRC rules mean, If I have a Purebreed AKC registered Lab but have not registered it with UKC the I fall into the catagory that I can run but no points until I Meet Registration Requirements (Which is up to 60 days after running the Hunt Test and if I pay and register my dog through UKC.)
I also believe you would technically have to have the jack be a Versitile Gun Dog in order to run. Which it may be? I may be wrong on all of this but just my opinion...


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

tankerlab said:


> I also believe you would technically have to have the jack be a Versitile Gun Dog in order to run. Which it may be? I may be wrong on all of this but just my opinion...


LOL...that's it!! A versatile gundog is a ...."Jack" of All Trades!! That's gotta mean JRT, right?

(seriously, the referred-to versatile gundog breeds are GSP, GWP, Viszla, Weim, etc.....mostly referred to as versatile because they hunt any and all game, from fur to feather....still sounds like a Jack should fit that description, too.)


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Sorry, but I just feel it makes a mockery out of the entire test. I once had a cat that thought it was a retriever. It would sit, stay, and retrieve a tennis ball (yes a tennis ball). I don’t see a lot of difference in running that cat and this dog. That is not to say I don’t think it is cool that a JRT can do it and I would have no problem watching or throwing for it in training. A hunt test in MHO is for retrievers that are working towards a title with a few exceptions for retrievers that cannot be registered for some reason. I just don't see the benifit for anyone.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

These are the dogs allowed to participate in HRC events:
# American Water Spaniel
# Barbet
# Boykin Spaniel
# Bracco Italiano
# Braque D'Auvergne
# Braque de Bourbonnais
# Braque de l'Ariege
# Braque Francais, de Grande Taille
# Braque Francais, de Petite Taille
# Braque Saint Germain
# Brittany (Revised July 1, 2009)
# Brittany
# Cesky Fousek
# Chesapeake Bay Retriever
# Clumber Spaniel
# Cocker Spaniel (Revised July 1, 2009)
# Cocker Spaniel
# Curly-Coated Retriever
# Deutscher Wachtelhund (German Spaniel)
# Drentse Patrijshond
# English Cocker Spaniel
# English Pointer
# English Setter
# English Springer Spaniel
# Epagneul Blue de Picardie
# Epagneul Breton
# Epagneul Picard
# Epagneul Pont-Audemer
# Field Spaniel
# Flat Coated Retriever
# French Spaniel (Epagneul Francais)
# Fresian Water Dog
# German Long Haired Pointing Dog
# German Rough Haired Pointer
# German Shorthaired Pointer
# German Wirehaired Pointer
# Golden Retriever (Revised July 1, 2009)
# Golden Retriever
# Gordon Setter
# Hungarian Wire-Haired Vizsla
# Irish Red and White Setter
# Irish Setter
# Irish Water Spaniel
# Kooikerhondje
# Labrador Retriever
# Lagotto Romagnolo
# Large Munsterlander
# Multi-Colored Standard Poodle
# Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
# Old Danish Pointing Dog
# Perdiguero de Burgos
# Portuguese Pointer (Revised July 1, 2009)
# Portuguese Pointer (Revised May 1, 2008)
# Portuguese Water Dog
# Pudelpointer
# Slovakian Wire-Haired Pointing Dog
# Small Munsterlander
# Spanish Water Dog
# Spinone Italiano
# Stabyhoun
# Standard Poodle (Revised May 1, 2008)
# Standard Poodle (Solid & Multi-Colored)
# Sussex Spaniel
# Vizsla
# Weimaraner
# Welsh Springer Spaniel
# Wirehaired Pointing Griffon

The statement of Non-UKC registered dogs does NOT refer to dogs outside this group - it ONLY refers to dogs not REGISTERED with UKC (i.e. only register AKC, excettera)
Sorry folks HRC is about HUNTING DOGS, not just dogs that hunt. If you start to go outside this you defeat what HRC is about.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Weezie will stay in the truck. While I may think its fun to run her in a started, it obviously is a gray area in the rule books. Thanks for the kind words, I certainly did not want to start a pissin match. There are plenty of dog games she will be playing for a title. And she will go hunting with us-she doesn't know she is not a gun dog. Good luck to Bus today and becareful in the heat.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Pals said:


> Weezie will stay in the truck. While I may think its fun to run her in a started, it obviously is a gray area in the rule books. Thanks for the kind words, I certainly did not want to start a pissin match. There are plenty of dog games she will be playing for a title. And she will go hunting with us-she doesn't know she is not a gun dog. Good luck to Bus today and becareful in the heat.


I would love to see this. Could you set up a test film it put it on YOUTube for us. I'm sure others on here would like to see it also.

Hey then we could all be judges.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Steve Peacock said:


> These are the dogs allowed to participate in HRC events:
> # American Water Spaniel
> # Barbet
> # Boykin Spaniel
> ...


I disagree. If a club turns the shortie jack's entry away on a weekend when there are still vacancies in the flight, that defeats what HRC is about...to me.

Chris


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## Brent Keever (Jun 14, 2008)

I would bet that omar would not have a problem with this dog running.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't think it's about tradition or defeating what the HRC is about I think it's an ego thing some people are afraid the jack is going to do better then someone's retriever in the test and they can't stand the thought of that. I think if he can do the work let him run!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Brent Keever said:


> I would bet that omar would not have a problem with this dog running.


LOL now that is what I call Old School ! Got to agree with you too.


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## Brent Keever (Jun 14, 2008)

I spent a weekend a few years back at omars hunting lodge in Arkansas. Yep old school but with out his vision HRC would not exist my opinion anyway.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> I don't think it's about tradition or defeating what the HRC is about I think it's an ego thing some people are afraid the jack is going to do better then someone's retriever in the test and they can't stand the thought of that. I think if he can do the work let him run!


I don't think that's the case at all. There are plenty of versatile hunting dogs allowed by HRC that can do better than your retriever on any given test. I have had my hat handed to me by several Standard Poodles and it didn't hurt my ego any more than not passing any other time.

My opinion is that if HRC says they are legal, fine. 

Has anyone e-mailed HRC yet to get clarification?


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Tom I agree that most people wouldn't have a problem with it but you have to admit there are some people that would have a problem with a JRT passing a test when there dog didn't.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

....and those same people would have ego attacks if a Golden, Boykin, or heaven forbid a show bred lab passed and they didn't. That's just the way some people are wired. 

I'm a rules type of guy and will abide by whatever HRC says.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve are you sure that is what the rule means. I'll find out but I think if you have started spots left, then anyone could pay and run. They will not get points but are still able to run. 

Nancy, we always break the rules and I'm always getting into trouble about something so come on down and run at our test. 

I would say if there are openings and we wouldn't allow this dog to run then we are going against what HRC is about.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Sorry, but I just feel it makes a mockery out of the entire test. I once had a cat that thought it was a retriever. It would sit, stay, and retrieve a tennis ball (yes a tennis ball). I don’t see a lot of difference in running that cat and this dog. That is not to say I don’t think it is cool that a JRT can do it and I would have no problem watching or throwing for it in training. A hunt test in MHO is for retrievers that are working towards a title with a few exceptions for retrievers that cannot be registered for some reason. I just don't see the benifit for anyone.


Cory,

How many times did you take that cat out on a training day, leave the gunners in the field after the labs were done running, pull the cat out of the truck, and have the cat go out there and smack the setup with mallards?

Nancy does this every time she trains.

Nancy's not trying to mock anyone or anything. She's done a neat job with a cool little JRT and she'd like to come and run.

HRC is constantly looking for new blood...guess what...heretofor, Nancy was a straight AKC-only kind of gal. So if she comes over to run the shortie...her Goldens come too. And I know she's not gonna leave them sitting in the truck or at home.

I'm all for sticking to the rules. I think that if she were to run out of contention and help fill the started flight, that's exactly what the founders of HRC (and NAHRA) had in mind.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Steve are you sure that is what the rule means. I'll find out but I think if you have started spots left, then anyone could pay and run. They will not get points but are still able to run.
> 
> Nancy, we always break the rules and I'm always getting into trouble about something so come on down and run at our test.
> 
> I would say if there are openings and we wouldn't allow this dog to run then we are going against what HRC is about.


There you go Nancy!

Music City is the club! I hear they fill their flights up, but hopefully you can get in!

By the way, I think a phone call to Claudene is in order. She may be able to help. Just let her know you want to run your JRT for fun in a started test and are not interested in points or titles...just to run her in a started hunt out of contention.

Like I wrote before, Mark Sheppard had the equivalent of a NAHRA MHR - half lab half rottweiler. (but he ran for no points.) This was several years ago. I don't recall anyone having an issue with it. We all thought it was pretty cool!



Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

OK...this is pretty clear to me. It took me all of two seconds to find by typing "HRC limited privelege" into the yahoo search engine.

UKC Limited Privelege Link (click here)

pasted below is from the link:

*UKC Limited Privilege Registration*is offered by UKC _to encourage all dog owners to be active and enjoy time with their dogs._ This program accepts Mix Bred dogs (also known as American Mixed Bred dogs, or AMB), purebred dogs of unknown or incomplete pedigrees, purebred dogs registered with registries the UKC does not acknowledge, and purebred dogs with disqualifying faults. Dogs enrolled in the LP Program *must be spayed or neutered* and, if accepted, are eligible to compete in obedience, agility, weight pull, dock jumping, dog sports, hunting programs, and terrier races; however, they are not eligible for conformation events. 

Documents necessary for Limited Privilege Registration are as follows: 

1) Completed Limited Privilege Registration Application,

2) Proof that the dog is spayed or neutered, signed by a Veterinarian, 

3) Fee of $30.00

4) (Optional) if you wish to have the dog identified as a specific breed, two color photographs (3 inches x 3 inches minimum) of the dog, one standing in profile and the other a close up of the dog's head must be submitted so that the dog can be compared to the given breed standard.


*Sample Limited Privilege Application*
****************************************************

Note from Chris: The part I highlighted in Red and underlined, italicized is what I believe to be in line with what Omar and the others would have thought. Nancy's not trying to mock anything or anyone. Nancy's not trying to break any rules. She just wants to run her shortie jack in something other than a weekend training session.

Be careful guys, you may see it and actually enjoy it. I know I did!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Cory,
> 
> How many times did you take that cat out on a training day, leave the gunners in the field after the labs were done running, pull the cat out of the truck, and have the cat go out there and smack the setup with mallards?
> 
> ...


A JRT is a dog.....a cat is a different species altogether. That would be like entering a dairy cow in a horse race.

On the list of accepted breeds, there are dogs that are not retriever breeds, nor are they versatile gundogs. While they certainly can pick up a bird and carry it, it's not their forte. Why they would be included, I"m not sure....seems like any breed regularly used for bird hunting is included, retriever or not.

I'd let the little guy run, for sure. Sans points, of course...but why not? 
Snobbery divides, and isn't good for any sport.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's Weezie


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Chris the way I understand LP is if you want points and titles. You don't have to reg. to run so I don't see the point in Reg. if you don't care about the titles.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Bull if you have a cat that will do the job, we will take them also. I think the water work would be a little hard, but who knows your cat might like water.

Man that's a pocket retriever. That dog wouldn't take up any room in the boat. 

Nancy will you rent that dog for the hunting season. Like to show off in front of my hunting buds.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

That shortie's got his own wetland at home. Nancy could host you on a guided hunt...leave those big labs at home.

Chris


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I love this sport and the people involved. Dogs are remarkable creatures. Weezie is available this fall for you deer hunters with so-so shots. She is just learning tracking, and she is quickly picking it up. No complaiming when she shows up in pink camo. Anyone coming thru central Illinois on 70 or 57 is welcome to stop and train in the wetland. It will knock your dog training lovin socks off. Kim- I'll be down your way this fall, we'll talk. I still owe you a pink camo hat for the little one.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Nancy,

Call UKC and asked to speak to Loretta Wylie. Loretta is a great lady and the main contact person for HRC events. Explain to her what you want to do and ask her if there is anything that would prohibit you from running Weezie in HRC tests. If Weezie is UKC registered ask her if points and titles can be earned. UKC has the final word on who can participate.

Go for it and get an official determination.

Janet


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Janet wouldn't this be a HRC question instead of a UKC. What difference would it matter to UKC just as long as they were getting their money. The way I read the rule is if you have room then any Non Reg dog can run....

Nancy I have a pink whistle, been thinking about getting some of those pink camo shirts and shorts to wear to the line. Carrie Ann started crawling and will be walking within the next couple of months.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Nancy, can I borrow Weezie this winter when I come out to Illinois to duck hunt? I hunt in some shallow water and deep mud and she would be light enough to fly thru that stuff....my long legged Labs make a mess when they get back in the blind throwing mud everywhere......I hunt down at Red Bud Il so I don't get up as far as 70 .come across 64 but would get a big kick out of seeing a *GOOD* dog work no matter what kind they are. PS what size dog vest does she wear?? Don't want her to get to cold. Does she like to steal sandwiches ? Have to make too many sandwiches for the dogs and teenagers that hunt with me. She probably wouldn't need but 1 or 2. I had a UKC registered Treeing Feist that I would have used but he has gotten an attitude because he thinks he's a Lab..LOL


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Here's Weezie


That cetainly looks like a White-Miniature-Labrador Retrieverwith a few mismarks, to me!;-) 

I say let her run! Go, little dog, go!


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Kim, I may be wrong but it has always been my understanding that UKC policies determine who can participate in UKC licensed events. I still say Nancy needs to call Loretta at UKC.

Janet


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I disagree. If a club turns the shortie jack's entry away on a weekend when there are still vacancies in the flight, that defeats what HRC is about...to me.
> 
> Chris


thumbs up, Chris!


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Why stop at started if she is under two run the derby!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> Kim, I may be wrong but it has always been my understanding that UKC policies determine who can participate in UKC licensed events. I still say Nancy needs to call Loretta at UKC.
> 
> Janet


Yeah that would be too easy I guess. Speculation is better for the thread


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Why is that snide? Just a fact you, we, they, can speculate all you want here. An easy end is to just ask HRC


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

MikeBoley said:


> Why stop at started if she is under two run the derby!


Then the Qual, the Am and the Open......


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I spoke with Loretta this morning, very nice lady and since she doesn't work on weekends, this was my first opportunity. I explained to her that 1. I will be at the event running finished with my goldens.
2. I am not making a mockery of the HRC and I would never dream of sticking a shorty jack in a test unless I felt she would do a credible job.

After talking about the varying opinions on the guidelines as written and the fact that 'other' dogs have run in events here is what she says about running Weezie without getting any points(which I planned on all along anyway):

No problem Nancy. The club is the only one that can decide if your Jack Russell can run for fun. It depends on how many entries they have, etc. I am not really sure if they will let you. 

The dogs that you describe have not earned any points on the events. There was a Schnauzer that ran but I could not apply the points and I did write a letter to the owner and the club letting them know about this. The club probably did not know that it was not a Gun Dog. As for the othe two dogs, I have never came across them on a report or they would of been told the same thing. Only Gun Dogs can participate in HRC/UKC events. 

Thank you,
Loretta Wylie
Office Manager, Hunt Programs
United Kennel Club, Inc.
(269) 343-9020 

Loretta also wants a picture of her prancing past the labs with her duck. I really like her. 

So it is up to the club, dependent upon available spots. 

As for the field trial suggestions:  To quote a smarty pants RTFer--

I can't "FLING" her that far. 

shot putting JRT's for fun--


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

I've held off posting anything until reading PAL's last post. But, now, what I'd like to say is, "That is so neat!" Post the picture here too, when it happens.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Are we back to where we started?


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## trinitylabs (Feb 13, 2006)

Just a thought, why don't you take her to a training day at a local club? No cost and you can see how she performs in a real test scenario.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

;-)I guess we have come full circle, and according to UKC it is up to the club as to whether or not a "non -gun dog" breed can run. So many of you speculators where indeed correct in your interpretations. Weezie spent 4 days this spring with us at an unofficial Banner marsh trianing/set up with 20 other dog people from all walks of the game. She saw the big dog set ups,the guns, the blinds, the noise and got all kinds of training in--She also got a bark collar to shut her trap, it makes her very angry that the boys get to work and she has to wait--it is what it is. Can she do it? Who knows, maybe someday I'll find out. I know now that the option exists: 

*The club is the only one that can decide if your Jack Russell can run for fun. It depends on how many entries they have, etc. **Thank you,
Loretta Wylie
Office Manager, Hunt Programs
United Kennel Club, Inc.
(269) 343-9020 
*
If you are running an HRC event and see a 'strange' dog running, it was the clubs choice. I say "good for that club!"


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I guess I've missed something along the way about HRC. I joined HRC many years ago because most HRC folks are the nicest people around. So to get to my point how could anyone or any club not let a handler and their dog run if they have openings. I don't care if you bring a toy poodle if they can do the job. If you are paying for the weekend hunt what difference does it matter. I think it would be cool to have a JRT pass a started test. Nancy I hope you can come down to Music City in August and run started for the first time with this dog. I still need a couple of judges so maybe you can talk Chris into coming down also.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Brother Kim,

My judging calendar is unfortunately full through the end of this Fall. I really do want to come and judge for Music City one of these days.

I feel terrible when I decline a judging gig....speaking of which, I need to take my HRC judges test to stay current.

Chris


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Pals said:


> *The club is the only one that can decide if your Jack Russell can run for fun. It depends on how many entries they have, etc. **Thank you,
> Loretta Wylie
> Office Manager, Hunt Programs
> United Kennel Club, Inc.
> ...


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I am glad to see UKC has a positive stance on this. Sometimes people get so hung up on the little stuff they are missing the big picture. I wonder how fast the disclaimers will start coming out on the HRC board now that so many hard arses were over ridden???

Go Nancy and have some fun.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Chris,
If you ever go judge for Music City, watch the Nashville weather for about a month prior. They had so much rain, the water on my test rose about a foot on Saturday. They have nice grounds as long as it's not Monsoon Season. Right Kim?


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

What's that motto again? HPW


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Ken,
I never came out with a disclaimer, always said that I was going by what is in the rule book. Never personally had a problem with it, just believe it was against the rules. Now that UKC has made it known they are leaving it up to the clubs, then that clarifies it. Still don't think my interpretation of the rules was wrong. Now I just have permission from UKC. Doesn't sound like it but believe me I admit when I'm wrong. I just don't believe I was with what I was required to go by. So now let's all have without having to worry about repercussions from the governing bodies.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Nancy,
Just curious, how does Weezie do on the water portion. I wouldn't know, but just wondering how a 60 yard water retrieve is for the dog. I imagine the water helps in floating the duck to make the retrieve easier, just didn't know how your well a Jack Russell swam.


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## Leitner Farm Labs (May 21, 2006)

Steve what do you care ...if she runs ....I think it's great when you can invole any dog or any one to come spend there time and money at a hunt test ...its about sportmanship...an letting the public know what Hunt Test's are about ....So lighten Up.... and Nancy if you are ever by Canton ,IL me and the wife to really like to see your Jack run


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

At what point does that start to become a pain in the butt for clubs and those who show up to run their test. Lets say this JRT can do the started work. That is fine and good, but now Tom shows up and has his little Tennessee Leg hound with him and he just knows old Bo can do the work. Billy also brought his little weiner dog with him and he too knows it can do the work. Now the reality is that neither one can and I, as a paying participant, must wait while these handlers have their fun with dogs that cannot do the work. Now the next time around 4 more people decide to enter their “truck” dogs of various breeds and those who actually put a lot of work into training and campaigning a dog have to wait for these folks to get their kicks with their sofa dogs. Yeah I know some of the retrievers will to be able to do the work either, but they are specifically allowed by HRC. Now I am the HT chair and I have to listen to all the retriever people who paid to run their dogs gripe about wasting time running non retrievers in our event. While it may sound like fun for this one dog it can open a can of worms that just ticks people off.


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## Leitner Farm Labs (May 21, 2006)

sorry my mistake I forgot hunt test's are'nt supposed to be fun ....this is all serious business and its all about watching every gun dog pass test's MY MISTAKE


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

If the "retriever" people paid AND the "other dog" people paid what's the difference?

In our neck of the woods we are short on members and entrants so we try to show more love to everyone in order to spark some enthusiasm


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

What does the breed have to do with waiting? I've waited for Labs and Goldens and Chessies and GWPS and etc. who paid their entry fees and couldn't do the work, too. If it's important that you run early because you don't want to be held up, tell the marshal and get it over with so you don't have to be exposed to "lesser" dogs. Of course, I'm assuming that you've probably got a dog or two running in Finished....and if they ever get lost on a mark and have a big hunt that takes a while, or need a few too many whistles to a blind, that you generously pick them up so no one else has to "wait". 

As long as there are openings left and no dog that is in contention for points/title is bumped, let 'em run.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Nancy,

I am glad that you were able to reach Loretta. I told you she was a really nice lady. I don't know why any club would refuse to let Weezie run if they had openings. That is why I wanted to you to get the "official word from UKC." My suggestion is to take her with you to your next HRC test, find out if they have openings in Started and go for it. But you better post a bunch of pictures here.

Janet Kimbrough


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## Leitner Farm Labs (May 21, 2006)

You know I was just thinking about that the another day at a bird station at a hunt test ......While i watched a so called Gun dog breed hunt the bird for 9 minutes an 32 seconds before wandering back to the line mind you with out the bird .....at that moment I would have loved to watched Nancy little dog nail a mark


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> What does the breed have to do with waiting? I've waited for Labs and Goldens and Chessies and GWPS and etc. who paid their entry fees and couldn't do the work, too. If it's important that you run early because you don't want to be held up, tell the marshal and get it over with so you don't have to be exposed to "lesser" dogs. Of course, I'm assuming that you've probably got a dog or two running in Finished....and if they ever get lost on a mark and have a big hunt that takes a while, or need a few too many whistles to a blind, that you generously pick them up so no one else has to "wait".
> 
> As long as there are openings left and no dog that is in contention for points/title is bumped, let 'em run.


So you are not going to have a problem if you show up for a test and 6-7 miniature poodles, JRT. or what have you are in front of you in the running order?
Good for you, but I bet there would be a whole lot of bitching going on in the gallery. MHO is if it can't get a title keep it at home and run on club days if they let you. My time is too valuable for people to go out and see if a non eligible dog, cat, or snake can pick up a bird and that is true of judging or running. I don't judge HRC (thanks goodness in this case) but if I drive 10 hours and give up a weekend of my time and a bunch JRT's and what not are there for me to judge, I am not going to be very happy leaving the grounds late Sunday evening.

BTW- this is not about Nancy or weezie, it is about the general idea AND there are more than enough people here that will tell you I am one to pick up a dog that is waisting others time


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

The pro I train with Eric Fangsrud used to have a great Jack Russell named Doc that was a great retriever. He would do the big dog marks with mallards. Doc sure didn't know he wasn't a big dog. 

In response to Corey's concern, I like most people become mildly irritated watching someone run a test that is way over their dog's dogs head, not so much because it was wasting my time, more so for putting the dog in a bad situation. Many times the handler gets upset with the dog when it's really the handler's fault for not having a clue. In this case there are credible witnesses that are saying, this particular dog can do the work. I don't see how the owner another non retrieving breed watching a little JRT doing a good job on a retrieving test would be inclined to enter his dog just because the JRT was good. He or she would obviously understand that the JRT had training and capabilities their dog did not possess. The first time I watched somebody run a 200 yard blind retrieve, I thought that was the smartest dog in the world, I didn't think "gee I have a retriever, I'll just enter my dog and run one of those to, it must be a natural thing retrievers can do", I marveled at the capabilities of that dog and handler and told myself that I was going to work hard, train and learn how to do that with my dog.
John


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Leitner Farms said:


> You know I was just thinking about that the another day at a bird station at a hunt test ......While i* watched a so called Gun dog breed hunt the bird for 9 minutes an 32 seconds before wandering back to the line mind you with out the bir*d .....at that moment I would have loved to watched Nancy little dog nail a mark


Was his name "Bus"?


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Corey;

Is it safe to assume that you get equal upset when somebody runs a dog in the afternoon that failed the morning portion? I mean even though it is within the rules and they have the right to do so it would still be a waste of YOUR time.

When I judge I am happy for the club that has full flights and I expect my days to be long.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> So you are not going to have a problem if you show up for a test and 6-7 miniature poodles, JRT. or what have you are in front of you in the running order?
> Good for you, but I bet there would be a whole lot of bitching going on in the gallery. MHO is if it can't get a title keep it at home and run on club days if they let you. My time is too valuable for people to go out and see if a non eligible dog, cat, or snake can pick up a bird and that is true of judging or running. I don't judge HRC (thanks goodness in this case) but if I drive 10 hours and give up a weekend of my time and a bunch JRT's and what not are there for me to judge, I am not going to be very happy leaving the grounds late Sunday evening.
> 
> BTW- this is not about Nancy or weezie, it is about the general idea AND there are more than enough people here that will tell you I am one to pick up a dog that is waisting others time


If I drove 10 hours to judge for a club and found out that they had six vacancies and filled them with out of contention dogs that helped defray the costs of the event, I'd be glad they did it. 

Letting big vacancies fester is what kills retriever clubs. 

If the club has that sort of entry trouble, they'll have to quit bringing in distant judges.

Chris


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Newcomb said:


> Corey;
> 
> *Is it safe to assume that you get equal upset when somebody runs a dog in the afternoon that failed the morning portion*? I mean even though it is within the rules and they have the right to do so it would still be a waste of YOUR time.
> 
> When I judge I am happy for the club that has full flights and I expect my days to be long.


 
Yes, training is for training.
Brother Chris we will just have to disagree I don;t want to see it


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Corey are you having a bad hair day. This is HRC not AKC, if we have spots open in started and someone wants to pay to play then I will let them play. I can tell you real quick at a HRC event, everyone would love to watch this dog run. I'm really confused on how you could be so hard nosed on this thread. You haven't made one post that would help anyone change their mind. If we can run 40 dogs in started and we have 35, why wouldn't we want to take dog 36, 37, 38, 39, or 40. It cost the same with running 35 dogs as it does 40 so why not make extra money and have fun at the same time. I would have been very disappointed if HRC or UKC would have been against this.

Chris one of these days you have to make the trip to TN, I think you will enjoy yourself. Steve we usually don't get that much rain but I'm glad land test can still be land test in water.


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## duckheads (Dec 31, 2004)

our last hunt test was the first time in the 5 years i have been around that we did not fill our finished flights as well as seasoned and started flights. we have had others flights not fill but not finished. as everyone invovled knows, clubs don't make much money at tests if any at all. i am not an officer but am on the hunt commitee for our fall test and i say we would be happy to have you and all of your dogs at our test in aug. we try to have as much fun as we can at our hunt tests and if there is a corey in the crowd i would be more than happy to explain the situation. i guess some people may not seem to care but if entries continue to be very low we will have to either significantly raise the price or not hold test anymore. how long can a club exsist if it is loosing it's rear on every test? so come on over to the Kankakee River HRC hunt test in aug and have some fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

still having fun regards,
greg


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Leitner Farms said:


> You know I was just thinking about that the another day at a bird station at a hunt test ......While i watched a so called Gun dog breed hunt the bird for 9 minutes an 32 seconds before wandering back to the line mind you with out the bird .....at that moment I would have loved to watched Nancy little dog nail a mark


That wasn't one of your dogs was it Bill? Just kidding. You know I don't care if you don't like what I was saying, but going by what was in the RULE BOOK, you know that little thing we are REQUIRED to follow, there was a problem. Sorry to be the one to ruin everyones day, but I believe in following the RULES. Now that UKC has given individual clubs the right to run such dogs, fine. Have at it and I sincerely hope everyone has fun. Somebody has to be the responsible one. OK, situation solved, so I for one am going on to other matters.


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## Leitner Farm Labs (May 21, 2006)

No Chris I was throwing marks in the Junior test after Judging for 2 days .....and damm they forgot to give me a medal........lol


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Leitner Farms said:


> You know I was just thinking about that the another day at a bird station at a hunt test ......While i watched a so called Gun dog breed hunt the bird for 9 minutes an 32 seconds before wandering back to the line mind you with out the bird .....at that moment I would have loved to watched Nancy little dog nail a mark


Are you saying a set of judges let this go on?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> So you are not going to have a problem if you show up for a test and 6-7 miniature poodles, JRT. or what have you are in front of you in the running order?


Nope. If I'm number 14 in the running order, I don't care who the 13 ahead of me are, or what breed or how long it takes. And if I have to wait a few extra minutes in the holding blind, I consider that a good training opportunity to reinforce patience.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

DOG DISCRIMINATION!!!! Okay Corey, lets arm wrestle shall we, winner has to wear a pink tutu. Not to worry badbullgator, we won't be coming your way, too many things in the water that would eat my little Weezie. Seriously, your loss--you would have liked us, even the goldens.....

How many little dogs that you described have you seen run a started? Who is going to blow money on something they know they can't pass? Not me. I've been around long enough to know how to play the game. Let alone the fact that most 'worthless' little dog owners(cat or snake owners either for that matter) don't even know HRC exists--so they certainly are not going to trot out FiFi next weekend and ruin your day Corey. I think your fear that letting the occasional 'other breed' run for fun is going to turn into a pink poodle fluff ball take over is silly. The little dogs or other breeds who really love to retrieve ducks--demand to retrieve, handle the truck environment, have guns blasted off over their heads, jump in nasty water---are few and far between. 

Quite frankly Steve brought up a great point-can the little dog handle what is asked of them? With 6" legs she has to work her butt off to go half the distance a big dog goes, she would swim till she drowns if I let her. Can she physically handle a 60 yard swim? Yes. Can she handle 4- 60 yard swims? No, especially in this heat. Obviously she is not built to handle this demanding sport, especially in the water. On land she will go and go. I know her limitations, I know she isn't a retriever, she can't hunt ducks or geese(heck they weigh more than she does) all day. But I would be willing to bet she can handle a few hours of duck, dove and quail hunting and then go kill a gopher(4 moles and 1 gopher killed to date) So I will take the time to teach her and I'll enjoy every second of it, that's me. 

Corey let me tell you something, if you were behind her in a started you would not be waiting. She would do the work or I would pick her up. Same as I would with any dog I was running. 

Those pictures Chris posted are when she was 5 months old, she has been swimming since February. She loves it, so why the heck not? If Chris or Bill bought a Shep, JRT, GSP or mutt and the dog wanted to play the game--I would throw, laugh and encourage. Same reason many other people throw for their worthless truck dogs. It's fun and quite frankly it's a joy to see any dog really love what they are doing, whether they were bred for the sport or not. I'm sorry you don't see it that way. I'm sorry that people think only of competition and money, and fail to really see and enjoy the little things.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

hey Nancy you haven't answered me about borrowing a short dog ........These long legged dogs get too much mud in the blind.....LOL.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

You are officially invited to stop, on your way up to Red Bud, in Lawerence County Illinois, just south of Lawerenceville--where the Embarrass River and the Wabash meet. We have 120 acres there--70 timber. We'll stop the pumps and let 'er flood. Teal heaven. You are more than welcome to hunt with us--this is the year we will be going down there to hunt. Did I mention it is next to 1300 acres of Wetland Reserve Program ground? I hope you don't mind pink, it's Weezie's color--and yes she does get thru the mud way easier. As for borrowing her, I can't my husband would kill me. He adores her.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks Nancy.....I was just kidding but really thank you for the kind invitation to stop by. I am retired so I have no timetable to be anywhere........


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Nancy, there's one other JRT trick Weezie would probably enjoy....I know mine does. First, you'll need a DT bird launcher...the spring loaded box kind that has a trap door in the end so you can arm it, and then load it via the trap door. Next, you'll need a handful of corn. Third, you need a comfy chair and a cool beverage.

Find a gopher hole and place the launcher next to it, armed and with the trap door open. Place a little corn inside on the mesh. Then you and Weezie sit back in your chair and she watches the hole while you sip a cool drink....and when a gopher comes up and goes in to check out the corn, hit the remote button. Gopher goes airborne, Weezie runs out and grabs it when it comes down. It doesn't take more than about two times before the JRT figures the game out. My Russell loves it.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

OMG!!!! I can't breath, that is too darn funny!!!! I keep thinking of Caddyshack.....jeez airborne gophers........


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Nancy (I) would have to go with Chris on this , i know i will catch heck for my opinion BUT Chris has answered every question as to why she should be allowed to run .

1. If you are willing to pay the entry fee , Knowing you will not recieve anything other than a ribbon (if) you pass.
2. If we have openings in the started flight why not fill it to help with the cost of the test .
3. I have watched several 1st time handlers young and old run a GRHRCH in started and recieve a ribbon .
4. When you pay $45 to run for a $5 ribbon , the club benefits and what a hoot it is to watch a little dog run their hearts out , i have thrown for a long haired wienner dog in a flooded rice field and all i could do was cheer for the little dog . 











I hope someone will let you run her , good luck and Go Weezie


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Corey are you having a bad hair day. This is HRC not AKC, if we have spots open in started and someone wants to pay to play then I will let them play.* I can tell you real quick at a HRC event, everyone would love to watch this dog run*. I'm really confused on how you could be so hard nosed on this thread. You haven't made one post that would help anyone change their mind. If we can run 40 dogs in started and we have 35, why wouldn't we want to take dog 36, 37, 38, 39, or 40. It cost the same with running 35 dogs as it does 40 so why not make extra money and have fun at the same time. I would have been very disappointed if HRC or UKC would have been against this.
> 
> Chris one of these days you have to make the trip to TN, I think you will enjoy yourself. Steve we usually don't get that much rain but I'm glad land test can still be land test in water.


 
Not everyone, I would not and several others would not so don't speak across the board. I run plenty of HRC including the Grand last year and again this spring (I hope). I would like to watch this dog run just not in a test. To me the whole point of a test is to test your dog and get points towards a title. I have fun at test but I don't really run them becasue they are fun, I hunt becasue that is where I have real fun with my dogs. I also have fun training with my dogs, but I just believe that a test is really for getting a title on a dog. that is a reason I don't run NARHA (well that and it is nowhere near here). I promise I will not try to enter a lab in a rat chasing contest or whatever games people play with JRT's


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Pals said:


> DOG DISCRIMINATION!!!! Okay Corey, lets arm wrestle shall we, winner has to wear a pink tutu. Not to worry badbullgator, we won't be coming your way, too many things in the water that would eat my little Weezie. Seriously, your loss--you would have liked us, even the goldens.....
> 
> *Corey let me tell you something, if you were behind her in a started you would not be waiting. She would do the work or I would pick her up. Same as I would with any dog I was running.*
> 
> .


Not sure the first part would be fair and you would proabable look far better in a tutu than I would

My opinion is not really about you and Weezie, but more the idea in general. Like I said before Weezie can probably do the work better than some of the started dogs, but what about the next one?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Not to worry, good old farm girl who can still fling 100 pounder hay bales with the best of them.

oh yeah, and I cheat.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> My opinion is not really about you and Weezie, but more the idea in general. Like I said before Weezie can probably do the work better than some of the started dogs, but what about the next one?


What next one? I seriously doubt there are other non-retriever breeds just sitting around, trained and ready to run one of your test as this little JRT is, and if there were, and they could do the work, why not. I thought that was why hunt test were invented, to open up the sport to the weekend hunter and that field trials were too competitive and elitest. 

I apologize that I don't know anymore about HRC than I have read in this thread, but I do know AKC and NAHRA hunt test and the spirit of them as really fun, non competitive alternatives to field trials, I really think you are worrying over nothing here. If letting one talented and qualified Terrier run your test opened up a can of worms, it sounds like Clubs would have the discretion of not allowing those kind of dogs to run next time they hold a test.
John


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> To me the whole point of a test is to test your dog and get points towards a title.



Well let me tell you Corey my daughter and her old lab that had app. 30 started ribbons may have wasted your time since they were ALL (she had a Seasoned pass) just for ribbons but it was the BEST $1200 I ever "wasted" and I would do it again.

Sorry but life isn't about somebodies breeding program.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> What next one? *I seriously doubt there are other non-retriever breeds just sitting around, trained and ready to run one of your test *as this little JRT is, and if there were, and they could do the work, why not. I thought that was why hunt test were invented, to open up the sport to the weekend hunter and that field trials were too competitive and elitest.
> 
> I apologize that I don't know anymore about HRC than I have read in this thread, but I do know AKC and NAHRA hunt test and the spirit of them as really fun, non competitive alternatives to field trials, I really think you are worrying over nothing here. If letting one talented and qualified Terrier run your test opened up a can of worms, it sounds like Clubs would have the discretion of not allowing those kind of dogs to run next time they hold a test.
> John


 
My point exactly! This was never about Nancy and weezie. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people say how they would like to run their truck dog "for fun" at various HT


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Newcomb said:


> Well let me tell you Corey my daughter and her old lab that had app. 30 started ribbons may have wasted your time since they were ALL (she had a Seasoned pass) just for ribbons but it was the BEST $1200 I ever "wasted" and I would do it again.
> 
> Sorry but life isn't about somebodies breeding program.


 
Nope not a waste of my time at all, your daughter is running a retriever in a retriever event. Apples to oranges. After this dog your daughter is already introduced into the sport with the right dog and maybe her next move will be on to seasoned, finished, master or ???? Good for her and good for dad helping her along the way


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Leitner Farms said:


> Steve what do you care ...if she runs ....I think it's great when you can invole any dog or any one to come spend there time and money at a hunt test ...its about sportmanship...an letting the public know what Hunt Test's are about ....So lighten Up.... and Nancy if you are ever by Canton ,IL me and the wife to really like to see your Jack run


 

Ummmm.....she is already running glodens so it is not exactly "bringing" her to the sport, she was already here. Of course maybe she wants to get out of the goldens and move up to a real retriever like a JRT, at least weezie will probably get wet


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Well I guess we're not going to convince you that you are wrong on this one, or as my wife would say you have a different opinion than mine. ( I tried to do a smiley face, but couldn't figure out how that icon thingy works).


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Well I guess we're not going to convince you that you are wrong on this one, or as my wife would say you have a different opinion than mine. ( I tried to do a smiley face, but couldn't figure out how that icon thingy works).


To get smilies: 

Go to the top of the page and click User CP
Click "Edit Options"
Scroll to bottom of page and in Miscellaneous options, click the drop down arrow and select "Enhanced Interface Full WYSIWYG"...then save changes.

You have lots of smilies then.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Corey you know me I could argue all day long but you need to come up with a better arguement than wasting your time. I've judged a lot of Labs that were wasting handlers time and I would have to tell them to bring their dog in. If you noticed in the first couple of threads, Nancy was an AKC person brought over to the dark side running HRC. She found out how fun the HRC games was and now wants to try her JRT. AKC wouldn't allow this at all and I'm glad that HRC/UKC still realizes that we are out having a good time with our dogs and friends. Life is too short, so why not go out to a weekend hunt and have a good time with your dog, snake, or cat if they could do the job. I'll let you bring your cat to our test, would love to see a cat sit still, retrieve and bring ball back.


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

Guys/Gals to me there are multiple solutions:

1. Contact Host club and tell them you would like to have a "Fun Run" in the started category for a suitable donation to the club to defray expenses 
2. if you want a ribbon to commemorate the occasion if successful them anti up the cost of a spacial ribbon
2. Contact your Region Rep and get a proposal put on the Agenda for the Running Rules Committee to considerer at the next HRC annual meeting.
3. Do nothing and enjoy your dogs unique abilities in a club atmosphere
4. Start a new organization that will reward any dog for their trained abilities


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Corey you know me I could argue all day long but you need to come up with a better arguement than wasting your time. I've judged a lot of Labs that were wasting handlers time and I would have to tell them to bring their dog in. If you noticed in the first couple of threads, Nancy was an AKC person brought over to the dark side running HRC. She found out how fun the HRC games was and now wants to try her JRT. AKC wouldn't allow this at all and I'm glad that HRC/UKC still realizes that we are out having a good time with our dogs and friends. Life is too short, so why not go out to a weekend hunt and have a good time with your dog, snake, or cat if they could do the job. I'll let you bring your cat to our test, would love to see a cat sit still, retrieve and bring ball back.


Reason one it is called the Hunting Retriever Club and that is good enough for me a JRT is not a retriever nor a gun dog. Nancy already has two goldens to run, why does she ned to run a non gun dog? The JRT has nothing to do with her coming to or staying with HRC she is there to run the goldens. I have a problem with an organization that makes you wear head to toe camo, but allows a rat chaser to run a HT. It has to be one way or the other. If she can run a non gun dog or non retriever why can't I wear White. blue, or pink? If she or anyone else with a non gun dog wants to have fun and see what the dog can do then hunt it don't show up at a retriever event to run your non retriever, non gun dog and I will not show up at the rat chasing test with my retrievers


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## Latisha (Feb 2, 2004)

Nancy come on down to St. Louis the first weekend of October. The Gateway HRC will welcome you to our annual hunt. We always have a few openings in Started (although Finished fills early). I would love to see Weezie run. I know my Tollers have no problem being shown up by a shortie-Jack. 

HRC was instrumental in getting me hooked on retriever sports years ago. A lot of people could have turned their noses up and laughed at a naive little gal with her red runt retrievers, but the good people of HRC opened their arms to us. To me that is the spirit of HRC that I love, and it is why I will continue to support the organization. I sure hope that never changes. 

Latisha


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Latisha said:


> Nancy come on down to St. Louis the first weekend of October. The Gateway HRC will welcome you to our annual hunt. We always have a few openings in Started (although Finished fills early). I would love to see Weezie run. I know my Tollers have no problem being shown up by a shortie-Jack.
> 
> HRC was instrumental in getting me hooked on retriever sports years ago. A lot of people could have turned their noses up and laughed at a naive little gal with her red runt retrievers, but the good people of HRC opened their arms to us. To me that is the spirit of HRC that I love, and it is why I will continue to support the organization. I sure hope that never changes.
> 
> Latisha


For some reason NSDT are approved as retrievers and/or gun dogs....JRT....not


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Reason one it is called the Hunting Retriever Club and that is good enough for me a JRT is not a retriever nor a gun dog. Nancy already has two goldens to run, why does she ned to run a non gun dog? The JRT has nothing to do with her coming to or staying with HRC she is there to run the goldens. I have a problem with an organization that makes you wear head to toe camo, but allows a rat chaser to run a HT. It has to be one way or the other. If she can run a non gun dog or non retriever why can't I wear White. blue, or pink? If she or anyone else with a non gun dog wants to have fun and see what the dog can do then hunt it don't show up at a retriever event to run your non retriever, non gun dog and I will not show up at the rat chasing test with my retrievers


C'mon down








--as a thrice-told *tail*, your argument agin' it is getting a tad ratty around the edges. I run FTs and there's aways a Boykin in the cargo hold if a pickup dog--or bye dog:!:--is "needed." That 'un above (and below) has gotten the call as a setup dog for AKC master tests. So what's a "hunting retriever" anyhow? Whatever you choose it to be...and choose








to have it retrieve.

If you want some hue and cry, Airedales are now permitted to run AKC spaniel tests--obviously they aren't spaniels a'tall, so that's a stretch and ought to provoke some outrage...if the AKC spaniel HT program were worth wasting an iota of outrage over.

HRC I take to be a lot more inclusive for hunters and that's enormously to its credit. The stipulations for when and why a JRT (or Leonberger or kooikerhundje) can run a hunt test--at the discretion of whomever and whatever are running the event--have been pretty reasonably articulated. So bring on the little bugger. And you ought to see one of 'em keel-haul (kill and haul) a raccoon--hey, maybe that'll be retriever-*tested* some day.

MG


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

No problem here with a Boykin (I think AKC needs to allow them) or any other dog being used as apick up or set up dog. Same is true of weezie


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Nancy you bring Weezie to WM HRC test this fall , we will be happy to have you . Would love to see Weezie get a ribbon .

Maybe Chris could come judge


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

crackerd said:


> C'mon down
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is that in it's mouth? Looks kinda like a rat tail! Pretty dog!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I might be reading your commit about Camo from head to toe rule wrong and if I'm reading this wrong I'm sorry. If you don't like the rules you don't have to run. I personally like running in Camo, I run both AKC and HRC in Camo from head to toe. The argument I have is if you have room it's not going to matter what dogs take up those last spots. Started is usually done way before the other flights, so they have to wait anyway for their ribbons on Saturday night. Now for your argument, if we have a Reg. dog in UKC, they should take priority over dogs that can't be Reg.


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## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> Well I tried to keep out of this but I can't. HRC was one of the biggest things I looked forward to do in the Spring and Fall besides hunt. Now thanks to a few "HOLIER THAN THOU" a$$holes I do not even go to HT's anymore. Thanks to a few people that are more interested in gossip than in good friendship can make it hard for the rest. I have many friends that I don't get to see anymore because I don't want to get upset because of my health because I may run across a few of the above mentioned a$$holes.
> 
> Now that off my chest I think it would be really cool to see a Jack doing started work. I have a Rat Teerror....LOL that thinks he is a Lab. Dang little feller even is as much fun as a Lab. Most folks that I think a lot of probably would at a training session even run anytime in the mix....


Well...he's definately feeling better. That's the Otey I know...that's the spirit...give it to em' Otey.


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## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Nancy, there's one other JRT trick Weezie would probably enjoy....I know mine does. First, you'll need a DT bird launcher...the spring loaded box kind that has a trap door in the end so you can arm it, and then load it via the trap door. Next, you'll need a handful of corn. Third, you need a comfy chair and a cool beverage.
> 
> Find a gopher hole and place the launcher next to it, armed and with the trap door open. Place a little corn inside on the mesh. Then you and Weezie sit back in your chair and she watches the hole while you sip a cool drink....and when a gopher comes up and goes in to check out the corn, hit the remote button. Gopher goes airborne, Weezie runs out and grabs it when it comes down. It doesn't take more than about two times before the JRT figures the game out. My Russell loves it.


 
This whole thread, with it's seriousness with some folks, had been somewhat humerous, but...






...that right there is just frickin' hilarious LOL!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I might be reading your commit about Camo from head to toe rule wrong and if I'm reading this wrong I'm sorry. If you don't like the rules you don't have to run. I personally like running in Camo, I run both AKC and HRC in Camo from head to toe. The argument I have is if you have room it's not going to matter what dogs take up those last spots. Started is usually done way before the other flights, so they have to wait anyway for their ribbons on Saturday night. Now for your argument, if we have a Reg. dog in UKC, they should take priority over dogs that can't be Reg.


This really is the crux of the matter. A Started event for a club that may be lacking on started entries, with an HRC/UKC "loophole" that MAY, under the hosting club's discretion, allow for this shortie Jack to run.

I love Corey Burke like a brother. He is one of the baddest combo saltwater, know-when-how to catch'em fisherman/retriever dudes on the continent.....

That stated, this is mountain out of molehill proportional debate. Weezie will pick'em up somewhere, somehow, if Nancy wants to deal with the hoopla.

It's all good. We need to continue to take "focus factor" to remember to focus on the "fun factor".....

Started, Junior, whatever you want to call it, should focus on the fun and camaraderie that exists in all HT organizations. 

Chris...who's punching out to Wisconsin in a matter of hours.


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## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This really is the crux of the matter. A Started event for a club that may be lacking on started entries, with an HRC/UKC "loophole" that MAY, under the hosting club's discretion, allow for this shortie Jack to run.
> 
> I love Corey Burke like a brother. He is one of the baddest combo saltwater, know-when-how to catch'em fisherman/retriever dudes on the continent.....
> 
> ...


Well stated Chris.


And by the way. You recently made some comments on the AGC that I tend to agree with you on as well. It was a very persuasive post.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Hoytman said:


> Well stated Chris.
> 
> 
> And by the way. You recently made some comments on the AGC that I tend to agree with you on as well. It was a very persuasive post.


Hoytman,

I would love to discuss the AGC thing in more detail. My outlook is somewhat unique, yet similar to that of Nancy's shortie Jack...

AGC has a new rulebook that is cool. It is not for all. It has NOTHING, absolutely zip-zero to do with the continent from which the parents of the pup hail. It has EVERYTHING to do with the performance of the dog against the rulebook, as well as the competitive field.

Dog games are for fun. Dog games are about getting the work done, and rewarding those who do it according to the specific rules for that event.

I have judged a grand total of one AGC event. I loved it. I love Robert Milner like my uncle I never had! P.S. Any idea what became of "Swack"? He seemed to have an answer/cure/suggestion for just about all things retriever! 

It's all good!

The sooner we dog gamers accept that we are all in the same pot of soup, and that we all have varying rulebooks and criteria against which we run our animals, the sooner we can band together to do what's needed!

What's needed? To keep ALL DOG GAMES alive for our kids, our grandchildren, and as many generations beyond that as we can! The same goes for our canine subsequent generations.

Chris


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## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

Yet another well written post Chris.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

> If you want some hue and cry, Airedales are now permitted to run AKC spaniel tests--obviously they aren't spaniels a'tall, so that's a stretch and ought to provoke some outrage...if the AKC spaniel HT program were worth wasting an iota of outrage over.


Airedale Terriers were some of the greatest bird dogs in Europe and this country (U.S.). If you want to learn more about them, google Oorang airedales, Jim Thorpe.

I hunted almost 20 years ago with a pair of Airedales owned by an elderly gentleman. They were GREAT bird dogs and retrieved. Don't know about endurance--only hunted one day with them.

Terriers have always been jack-of-all-trades dogs. The problem is the U.K. Kennel Club and the American Kennel Club had to come up with "groupings" so as to promote group showing. 

Irish Water Spaniels compete in AKC retriever trials but they have the word "spaniel" in their breed name. Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers are designated as "retrievers" but their historical purpose, running up and down a shore to entice waterfowl to get closer for another look, would be hooted down if displayed at an AKC field trial.

Just as silver labrador breeders, long-haired weim breeders, and labradoodle breeders do today, in the 1800's dog breeders designated certain breedings of two dogs as this neat, new dog breed: "Ooh, I have some labrador Newfoundlands"; or "I have two Golden, long-haired Russian circus dogs."

People made up dog breeds long ago and continue to do so today. 

The question about running a Jack Russell in a hunt test is not whether the dog should be allowed to run. 

The question is if the Jack Russell completes the tests, isn't the Jack Russell as much of a foundation breeding dog for hunt tests as a Labrador who completes the same tests?

If hunt tests, field trials, etc., etc., are about testing the best dog for the test at hand, shouldn't the tests currently designated as "retriever tests" (even though the Irish Water Spaniel and the Poodle are allowed to participate even though they are not designated as "retrievers" by the registering bodies) be open to every breed?

If the purpose is to find and then breed those dogs who excel at these tests, then why aren't the tests open to every breed of dog?

I don't automatically believe the retriever tests should be open to every breed but I want to hear opinions on why they should or should not be open to every breed. If the desire is to find dogs who can do the tests, does it matter what breed they are?

J. Marti


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