# Drone coverage at the national



## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

I sure wish Pat was doing the coverage at the national with his drone and interviews of handlers! Apparently the powers that be thought the later handlers were getting too much of an advantage from watching the drone footage, kinda like the HOF committee! There is so much luck involved in changing conditions and when you run in a national, I personally think letting the arm chair quarterbacks setting at their desks a birds eye view has been awesome for the sport. There is tons of complaining about judging every weekend, why not let the judging pool have a real time view of what national judges setup? How about the kid that has his first derby dog but can't afford to go to the national in either time or money, but can get a much better picture by looking at the drawings and viewing the drone video. Watching a test dog run a series of marks is not a CIA mission!
CB


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Chad Baker said:


> I sure wish Pat was doing the coverage at the national with his drone and interviews of handlers! Apparently the powers that be thought the later handlers were getting too much of an advantage from watching the drone footage, kinda like the HOF committee! There is so much luck involved in changing conditions and when you run in a national, I personally think letting the arm chair quarterbacks setting at their desks a birds eye view has been awesome for the sport. There is tons of complaining about judging every weekend, why not let the judging pool have a real time view of what national judges setup? How about the kid that has his first derby dog but can't afford to go to the national in either time or money, but can get a much better picture by looking at the drawings and viewing the drone video. Watching a test dog run a series of marks is not a CIA mission!
> CB


Thank you for bringing this up...

I was thinking about this just the other day and the only reason I could come up with the lack of drone footage is exactly as you mentioned. Too much info for handlers... perceived by some to be an unfair advantage to those that get to see the footage before they run. How about just uploading the footage at the end of each series? I know I learn a lot by watching those videos and they inspire me to be a better trainer, even though I do not run trials (well, not enough to count, since I've only run 2 derbies LOL!)
I hope the powers that be will reverse this 'trend' in the future. I LOVE watching the videos.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I hope the powers that be will reverse this 'trend' in the future.


“The powers that be” is a poorly defined and elusive entity. Is this a NRC decision or a RN decision? I suspect that the he/she/they will remain anonymous. 

Several years ago an NARC officer banned personal cameras from the gallery and claimed some sort of copyright infringement for anyone recording videos on cellphones or video cameras.

Anyone who runs later is the beneficiary of information from everyone who ran before, workers, and officials that early handlers do not possess.

And, by the way, I can get much better information from my buddy who is an 8 point judge and competitor who happens to be on the Steward’s or Marshall’s Committee than I would ever get from watching a drone video of the test dogs.

Maybe, just maybe that decision is actually about money and not competition.


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Really? Those all mighty marshalls would share insider information that's unheard of!
Just kidding some know who the control freaks are that want to limit all the video etc. The same ones that consult all the people ie marshalls, gunners, throwers, hostess etc to get all the insider information they can. I've been out of the game for some time but I see the same people wanting to limit to their abilities what goes on. Train your dog, be on time, and have fun! Lots of people have forgot how to do that! 
Ed has ran many more nationals than I ever will but I think he will agree many things have to go just right. Scenting conditions, Lighting, Long Flyers/Short Flyers, No-Birds, Wind changes, run early/late, all can be big factors at different points in a nationals.
I had the workers party cut off hit me twice when there was 10 dogs left to run the next morning and there was a 20% only able to do the test when 90% were doing it the day before. Tons of factors and luck involved but thinking a drone video is a huge help to later contestants that are watching a test dog is crazy, but maybe not to number crunchers!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Chad 

After the National is over, I am going to write a letter to the Retriever News, asking that they (or whoever is in charge of the decision) reinstate the drone coverage. 

I don't think that the photos and drawings really tell you that much. You shouldn't need to be part of the secret handshake club to know what is going on.

I have talked to a couple of folks who have said that the 5th is tight, tight, tight. The photos don't convey that. The drawing does to some extent. But, for me, the drone is the key. I didn't understand why the 1/2 of the 2019 NARC was so tough. But, when I saw the drone and the contours of the field, I got it immediately.

As for the advantage, if you are an amateur that is not part of a connected group - at either the NARC or the NRC - you are not going to know much. 

Ted


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## Chipper31 (Mar 8, 2009)

I believe there is a drone photo up on the blog now.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

It would seem to make the most sense then, if they are concerned about competitors getting advanced info/advantage that the official photographer not make drone footage public until after the series is complete. Not that hard to do considering if the photographer violated the rules, they wouldn't be the photographer for long. 

Not sure how such a simple solution was missed. Sounds like the justification may be a bit weak or... some other factors no one else wants to talk about are at play (read Ed's commend re money).


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> It would seem to make the most sense then, if they are concerned about competitors getting advanced info/advantage that the official photographer not make drone footage public until after the series is complete. Not that hard to do considering if the photographer violated the rules, they wouldn't be the photographer for long.
> 
> Not sure how such a simple solution was missed. Sounds like the justification may be a bit weak or... some other factors no one else wants to talk about are at play (read Ed's commend re money).


The official photographer is Mark Atwater. The drone footage is from Pat Burns Elite Retriever Training and is displayed on a giant LED screen in his company logo tent. He also has footage of interviews with people regarding the trial.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Chipper31 said:


> I believe there is a drone photo up on the blog now.


Burns drone coverage included flyovers of the test dogs, not just a still photo


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## DH (Oct 3, 2006)

I think drone footage would be very cool. Especially for those of us who have never been to a national and thus have an even harder time interpreting the pictures. Seems it would be simple to wait until the series is over if someone has a concern about unfair advantage.


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

With rotation, I would think drone footage of the test dog would equalize any advantage throughout the course of the week, unless of course you were running in the first few dogs of series 1. I also miss the drone and Pat’s interviews.


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## younggun86 (May 2, 2013)

If these powers are so worried about things being fair they should really worry about the illegal tests, the poor judging and favoritism and many other things of a weekend trial. the national was one of the greatest experiences i have ever had in my life and pats tent enhanced that. I didnt have a pro that was giving me guidance tho or kno a lot of people, i didnt see anyone really having an advantage due to the drone videos but i do feel it was great exposure for this sport which desperately needs new blood and needs to keep evolving, this is an amazing sport and the national is the pinnacle, y not showcase that and like said earlier maybe things can be learned from such coverage for other judges etc etc


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> The official photographer is Mark Atwater. The drone footage is from Pat Burns Elite Retriever Training and is displayed on a giant LED screen in his company logo tent. He also has footage of interviews with people regarding the trial.


Very obvious problem there.


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

It would be nice to have the footage not be available to anyone until the series is completed and the next series starts. No advantage to anyone in the event. It would be educational for all of the people sitting home trying to learn more about the sport.


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

younggun86 said:


> If these powers are so worried about things being fair they should really worry about the illegal tests, the poor judging and favoritism and many other things of a weekend trial. the national was one of the greatest experiences i have ever had in my life and pats tent enhanced that. I didnt have a pro that was giving me guidance tho or kno a lot of people, i didnt see anyone really having an advantage due to the drone videos but i do feel it was great exposure for this sport which desperately needs new blood and needs to keep evolving, this is an amazing sport and the national is the pinnacle, y not showcase that and like said earlier maybe things can be learned from such coverage for other judges etc etc


Agree with this 100% , at every weekend FT you get to hear the conversation about how FT are dying due to lack of new blood. Now you have a way to show case our sport and Pat did a fantastic job. did the drone shots and the interviews give later handlers an unfair advantage ? I believe the real advantage goes to the individual running multiple dogs. I would add that every professional sport has intense drone coverage and interviews , is ours so different?


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

EdA said:


> “The powers that be” is a poorly defined and elusive entity. Is this a NRC decision or a RN decision? I suspect that the he/she/they will remain anonymous.
> 
> Several years ago an NARC officer banned personal cameras from the gallery and claimed some sort of copyright infringement for anyone recording videos on cellphones or video cameras.
> 
> ...


Look what came up in my FB Memories today: "Since when can't a visitor to the National Open take pictures with her own small digital camera and share those pictures with her friends? I've been told to cease and desist "broadcasting" the event. Oh, and also that I could get a commercial vendor license.I guess that would allow me to take my pictures! Some way to treat a person that has volunteered to work the event for a couple of days.Unreal!" 

I was also asked to leave the grounds if I would not take my camera back to my vehicle.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

It is pretty laughable, really, when you think about the number of sporting events (football, baseball, etc) where people are allowed to video and photograph to their heart's content. Does the national retriever championship or national amateur retriever championship or the AKC REALLY make that much money on footage/photography of our 'small' sporting dog venue? Really? I could understand if Mr Atwater had an issue with someone carrying a 'professional camera/large lenses into the gallery.... but is he concerned about someone with a cellphone standing in the gallery? 

Are cameras allowed in agility stadiums/venues? dogs shows? obedience trials? or other k-9 events? Even the superbowl allows cameras with 'short' lenses... (ie not zoom lenses)


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Tobias said:


> Are cameras allowed in agility stadiums/venues? dogs shows? obedience trials? or other k-9 events?


Cameras are absolutely permitted. My wife and some of her friends sometimes make a video with their cell phones of the entire golden retriever competition at conformation shows. AKC live streams, e.g. Westminster and the National Dog Show annually.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Sounds like most agree that no drone videos and banning cameras at the National is a bunch of *B*arbara *S*treisand. 
What should we do about it?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Sounds like most agree that no drone videos and banning cameras at the National is a bunch of *B*arbara *S*treisand.
> What should we do about it?


LOL... Does anyone have names and mailing/email address for those interested in sharing their concerns with 'the powers that be'?


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> LOL... Does anyone have names and mailing/email address for those interested in sharing their concerns with 'the powers that be'?


"LOL" you probably ought to start by determining who are the powers that be, and getting their names and address


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> "LOL" you probably ought to start by determining who are the powers that be, and getting their names and address


pretty sure that is why I asked the question.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Let’s not get carried away, the drone video footage of the test dogs is the only thing relevant. The camera thing Vicki mentioned was a decade and 2 slates of officers ago. This is strictly a Retriever News policy so if you disagree direct your comments there.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Thank you for the clarification on the timeline regarding photography. And also about the retriever news info. I guess it would be nice to know if photography is allowed, as well as whether 'they' would be willing to allow for 'approved' drone footage at later events. I would like to attend a national as a spectator at some point, camera/cell phone use being a nice option to record the time spent there.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

tigerfan said:


> Tobias said:
> 
> 
> > LOL... Does anyone have names and mailing/email address for those interested in sharing their concerns with 'the powers that be'?
> ...


Search for retriever news, go to official site and click on contact us. And they have a list of the powers that be and an snail and E address. Even a phone number! I never realized until just looking now that I have tossed quite a few birds for one of the powers that be.


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## HoHum's Retrievers (Mar 22, 2007)

All the concerns about not having Pat's drone coverage....
May be kind of a moot point and not any sort of conspiracy. I see that Pat is recuperating from knee surgery I believe it is that has him grounded in a hospital back home. 
His drone coverage and interviews at past events have been excellent. But Pat possess some unique skills and has fantastic experiences to draw upon. Kind of a niche market. It's one thing to fly a drone up there, snap a photo, draw some lines and put up on a blog. I think quite another to film and edit and upload and so forth. Not saying it is rocket science, but who else do we know in the Retriever games that can do it. And willing and available for over a week. 

Perhaps it is some conspiracy I'm unaware of, but my knee jerk reaction is just simply that Pat was unavailable and a suitable replacement was not able to be found. 

There's bigger fish to fry than drone coverage. Let's talk about the tremendous number of no-birds. Didnt a finalist have 3 no-birds in the 10th? That's way worse and has a bigger impact on the trial than drone coverage. An earlier series saw nearly 20% of the dogs get a no-bird. National Amateur wasnt much better this year. Gunner's Guild may need some help. I realize it's a tough job and perhaps difficult conditions given wind and pheasants and all that. But really? I've shot a lot of flyers in the past 20+ years and seen a lot of flyers in that time as a competitor and judge and stake chair. I've not seen shooting this bad ever.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

According to someone there, #52 actually had 6 no birds. This goes way beyond bad luck. Someone was not doing their job. I have no doubt the best dog won, but I believe the series should have been scrapped after the 3rd no bird overall, which happened early. No way did every dog get a fair shot.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I heard the shooting was very bad last year as well. 
No excuse, skilled wing shooters are not that hard to come by.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> According to someone there, #52 actually had 6 no birds. This goes way beyond bad luck. Someone was not doing their job. I have no doubt the best dog won, but I believe the series should have been scrapped after the 3rd no bird overall, which happened early. No way did every dog get a fair shot.



Really?

Clearly, you have no idea of the practical constraints of putting on a National

1. Everything is planned around the event ending on Saturday
- The grounds are booked
- The workers have travel plans booked
- Etc., etc.

2. That means you cannot push into Sunday. Period.

3. Dog 52's third visit to the line came at 1:51 pm

4. It gets dark in Corning at 5 pm. There were 18 dogs in the 10th series. 

IF they did as you advised, they would have scrapped the test at 1:51 pm. Moved to a new location (usually takes at least an hour to move). Then run two test dogs, and 18 competing dogs in the remaining one hour of daylight. 

Was it fair to #52? No
Was there anything to be done about it? Not really
Plus as a practical matter, #52 had a handle coming into the 10th. And by the time it came to its third visit to the mat, there were dogs that had completed 10 series without a handle. So #52 was unlikely to win. And there are no places other than first in a National. 

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

HoHum's Retrievers said:


> Perhaps it is some conspiracy I'm unaware of, but my knee jerk reaction is just simply that Pat was unavailable and a suitable replacement was not able to be found. .



Pat was available. He was not invited.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I heard the shooting was very bad last year as well.
> No excuse, skilled wing shooters are not that hard to come by.


No birds can occur for a variety of reasons unrelated to the skills of the shooters. A triple flier triples the likelihood of a no bird. Finding great wing shots willing to travel cross country, give up 10-12 days of their time, and willing to pay their own expenses is more difficult than you appear to realize. Since I was a judge last year I can attest that your statement, “the shooting was very bad last year as well”, is inaccurate. We had pheasant flier no birds but we placed fliers so as to minimize no birds and when we shot multiple fliers only one was a hen pheasant.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Really?
> 
> Clearly, you have no idea of the practical constraints of putting on a National
> 
> ...


 1. If things go wrong you have Sunday to work with. You think workers travel plans are more sacrosanct than the teams that have worked so hard to be there?
2. See #1
3. I was not speaking only of dog 52. Two others had multiple no birds.
4.They knew what time it gets dark. Why set up a test with 3 flyers when they do not have adequate gunners?

You are right Ted, I’ve never been to a national but I have followed every one since 2006. This is the only time I have seen anything like this. It is a fact you are going to argue anything I say and I know far better than to ever disagree with you. But this was wrong. If the dog had “no chance” of winning, he would not have been a finalist. I say again, I think the best dog won, but your defense of this clusterfuck is inexcusable.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Guess I heard wrong.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> 1. If things go wrong you have Sunday to work with. You think workers travel plans are more sacrosanct than the teams that have worked so hard to be there?



Volunteers who give up a week or more of their time, have to pay for their room and board out of their pockets, and who have made plans for departures on Sunday are unlikely to stay on for another day. Those who have booked flights for Sunday would need to change their flights at considerable cost. 

I think you fail to recognize their sacrifice and cavalierly discount that sacrifice.

It is easy to second guess from the cheap seats.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Volunteers who give up a week or more of their time, have to pay for their room and board out of their pockets, and who have made plans for departures on Sunday are unlikely to stay on for another day. Those who have booked flights for Sunday would need to change their flights at considerable cost.
> 
> I think you fail to recognize their sacrifice and cavalierly discount that sacrifice.
> 
> It is easy to second guess from the cheap seats.


A significant number of those people have been there almost two weeks. Little help would be available on Sunday and no one, including the affected handler(s), would choose the option of adding a ninth day to an already grueling schedule. Without any inside information I suspect that by the time 52 came to line the winner was already established.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> A significant number of those people have been there almost two weeks. Little help would be available on Sunday and no one, including the affected handler(s), would choose the option of adding a ninth day to an already grueling schedule. Without any inside information I suspect that by the time 52 came to line the winner was already established.


The best time I have had working a national has been during setup week. You find out who the contributors 
to the sport are & their willingness to put in long hours for little recognition. Until the last 3 days of the actual 
trial it is really a borefest.


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## Melanie Foster (Nov 29, 2018)

Wow, I knew there was a reason I haven't been here in a while. 

You all are a bunch of whiney, arm chair babies. From someone who was there, that would be ME -- not a friend who heard it from a friend-- it was the smoothest National one could ask for. 

More drone coverage needed? Cry me a river. No birds and blah blah blah from someone who has never finished a field trial? OMFG

The best dog won. Period. And not a SINGLE PERSON IN THE GALLERY faulted the gunners for the no birds in the tenth.

For those complaining, we'll see you at the next National working or running a dog.

ps Chad, dude, there is only one "L" in Marshal...


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Wow.. that was nice


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## Melanie Foster (Nov 29, 2018)

Tobias said:


> Wow.. that was nice


You don't know me very well, do you?


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> You don't know me very well, do you?


Clearly not. lol


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Melanie you sound like the rug bitch I remember! Is that the same one or am I mistaken?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> .....
> 
> ps Chad, dude, there is only one "L" in Marshal...


Are we sure? 😎
That's some classic Felony Monster right there. She don't do nice😄


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## Melanie Foster (Nov 29, 2018)

Chad Baker said:


> Melanie you sound like the rug bitch I remember! Is that the same one or am I mistaken?


That is indeed me.

How much do I owe you to trademark that?


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

I thought you had a patent on it already!
All seriously aside thanks for your thoughts on this national from a observer perspective, I still think much better real-time reporting and better drone shots are needed,


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## Melanie Foster (Nov 29, 2018)

Chad Baker said:


> I thought you had a patent on it already!
> All seriously aside thanks for your thoughts on this national from a observer perspective, I still think much better real-time reporting and better drone shots are needed,


LOL 

Wouldn't you agree that too much coverage while dogs are running gives later dogs an advantage? Drone coverage of dogs running would be awesome after the fact, but you know how we all live in the moment. Would anyone watch it once the series was over?

ps For more coverage, check out FB. They'll let us say anything there. Sometimes you just need to use swear words.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Melanie Foster said:


> LOL
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that too much coverage while dogs are running gives later dogs an advantage? Drone coverage of dogs running would be awesome after the fact, but you know how we all live in the moment. Would anyone watch it once the series was over?
> 
> ps For more coverage, check out FB. They'll let us say anything there. Sometimes you just need to use swear words.


I know you've been around RTF for a good long while... before 2018, as I recall.  But I don't remember the 'tude. LOL

So - I for one, would watch the videos after the fact (at the end of the series). Maybe I am the exception... I enjoy going to the past years' videos and watching them. I suppose Retriever News could require a subscription to be able to do so, and I would likely pay...

I have no other comments regarding the no birds or any of that stuff... Big event like this, my hat's off to everyone who has a hand in pulling it off smoothly and efficiently. (as much as possible, at any rate)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> your defense of this clusterfuck is inexcusable.


Carol (2tall) went to FB to drum up support for her claim, since no one supported her here. Here is the thread. https://www.facebook.com/groups/355...if_id=1573868810818192&notif_t=group_activity
(Look at the Melanie Foster thread on 11.16.19 at 3:30 pm)

You will note that no one supported her allegation. In fact, her claim was uniformly rejected - most notably by people who were there.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Wouldn't you agree that too much coverage while dogs are running gives later dogs an advantage? .



Maybe, but there are other advantages that are more significant:
- Running a great dog
- Running a number of great dogs
- Running when conditions are great
- Having access to the secret handshake club and knowing what to train for in advance of the series

Most important to me about what Pat does is that:
- He educates the public (most of whom cannot attend a National, many of whom have never attended a National)
- He creates interest in a sport, whose membership is flagging
- He allows people who cannot attend to get a bird's eye view of the event


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> LOL
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that too much coverage while dogs are running gives later dogs an advantage?


Just to emphasize this is drone footage of the test dogs running. No running dogs would be subjected to the distractions of a drone buzzing overhead. 

Speaking for me only the test dogs performance has zero influence how I would run a test including watching their performances on drone video footage.

On the other hand I would be strongly influenced by what Mr.s Farmer, Pleasant, Voigt et al would have to say after they had run their second or third dog.

The whole idea that watching a drone video of the test dogs would give anyone a competitive advantage is just silly.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

EdA said:


> Just to emphasize this is drone footage of the test dogs running. No running dogs would be subjected to the distractions of a drone buzzing overhead.
> 
> Speaking for me only the test dogs performance has zero influence how I would run a test including watching their performances on drone video footage.
> 
> ...




Could not agree more!! Drone footage is just cool to watch but from the drones angle you really don't see all the factors, the actual lay of the land. You are much better off watching from the ground.


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## Melanie Foster (Nov 29, 2018)

EdA said:


> Just to emphasize this is drone footage of the test dogs running.


This makes much more sense. Sorry, somehow I missed you all were only talking about better drone coverage of test dogs only. I'm still recovering from eight long days away from home.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> 2tall said:
> 
> 
> > your defense of this clusterfuck is inexcusable.
> ...


Another opinion from someone with no concept of what it is like to run a competitive AA dog, chair a weekend trial, run a dog in a national, or even volunteer at a national. I think that everyone involved was trying to put on the best event possible.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I was never seeking “support” here. I entered another conversation to express my feelings on FB as well as here. The only thing the two had in common was the presence and attitude of Melanie.
And Melanie, if it was me you were referring to that never finished a trial, you would be wrong. My current dog who has been endlessly patient with his green owner/handler has earned 5 jams and an RJ, in spite of me. But my comments are only to express concerns for the participants who have invested so much to expect a fair run. At ANY level.


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## CaChesapeake (Dec 6, 2019)

FYI Pat Burns did not attend the NRC 2019 for his own reasons. He is a wonderful addition and was missed. Tina and the committee spent a lot of time finding someone to come out and take the drone photos we had. We finally talked a son into coming out and teaching his father a committee member ( who was already busy) to take drone photos. The news works from dark to dark to bring coverage. The secret handshake is silly.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

That "rug bitch" comment was a snot bubbler.....excuse me while I get a tissue


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

CA Peake , I know for a fact Pat was asked not to be there over concerns from a retired lawyer and others in the know. Yes he did have knee replacement that he scheduled after the fact he was asked not to be there. Whatever floats the boat but a lot of us armchair quarterbacks sure did miss having his great footage and discussions from the tent. Not taking anything away from Tina and her crew they work very hard and do a good job, but having a professional in the club house sure brings the coverage to another level.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Chad Baker said:


> CA Peake , I know for a fact Pat was asked not to be there over concerns from a retired lawyer and others in the know. Yes he did have knee replacement that he scheduled after the fact he was asked not to be there.


​I don't know the particulars, but Pat told me that he was not invited.


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## CaChesapeake (Dec 6, 2019)

Well “ the guys in the know. “ must know . I’m not a guy , nor a retired attorney and guess I’m not in the know . I have no idea what the national clubs or Pat are going to do about 2020 nationals. I do know that as President , the 2019
NRC did NOT make any decisions about the Drone coverage at the National , with Pat or anyone else for 2019x That’s all ... love the “ guys in the know “... later guys ! Julie Cole


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Congrats on being president and toting the sword! Maybe you should be talking to your board members about it since that's where the complaints came from! As president you have the ability to showcase our sport to a new level at the nationals there is a lot of people that would like to see that! Thanks again for stepping up to the plate and doing lots of mindless work without getting much credit, you have made great commitments to the sport personally from many judging assignments to judging nationals and even having to keep Billie straight,LOL!!!!! seriously take a good look at how people from far away can have a better vision of what is going on at the nationals please, Thanks Chad


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

CaChesapeake said:


> Well “ the guys in the know. “ must know . I’m not a guy , nor a retired attorney and guess I’m not in the know . I have no idea what the national clubs or Pat are going to do about 2020 nationals. I do know that as President , the 2019
> NRC did NOT make any decisions about the Drone coverage at the National , with Pat or anyone else for 2019x That’s all ... love the “ guys in the know “... later guys ! Julie Cole


I am not in the “know” either Julie but I do know the decision came from Retriever News not from the National Retriever Club. If I were to guess it would be that the Editor in Chief of RN made an executive decision which he has the perfect right and authority to do.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

No drones until the tests are completed. Should be a rule. Gunners should shoot them down on the spot.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Happy Gilmore said:


> No drones until the tests are completed. Should be a rule. Gunners should shoot them down on the spot.


Why?.............


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't quite understand Paul's take on this. Except maybe he is referring to drones while competing dogs are running? I think everyone here is referring to drone footage of the test dogs.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I don't quite understand Paul's take on this. Except maybe he is referring to drones while competing dogs are running? I think everyone here is referring to drone footage of the test dogs.


I THINK he may be saying that drone coverage is fine as entertainment once the series has ended, but that it should not be available during the actual competition. He'll let us know, I'm sure.

On another note, are lots of people using Drones while training these days? -Paul


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I would love to use a drone during training. 
I would think watching drone footage of one dog might not be as valuable as watching videos of multiple dogs, but certainly helpful, if you knew what you were looking to improve (as the handler) - esp if you could watch a ground view/drone view videos simultaneously (whistle timing/cast timing/correction timing/effect of correction, etc)


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

paul young said:


> Tobias said:
> 
> 
> > I don't quite understand Paul's take on this. Except maybe he is referring to drones while competing dogs are running? I think everyone here is referring to drone footage of the test dogs.
> ...


I think the handlers skill at looking what is in front of them to analyze a test and its factors can be as important as a well timed whistle. I believe aerial views are good for training. At a National the goal should be to analyze the handler and dogs skills. Those skills dont need to be digitally supplemented. We have enough media and digital in our lives. Let's keep it away from the sport all together. 

Watch drone footage for entertainment purposes after a test is done. Fly a drone on a by dog.

Drone footage should not be available for test strategy purposes.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Happy Gilmore said:


> No drones until the tests are completed. Should be a rule. Gunners should shoot them down on the spot.


Is non-toxic shot required for drone shooting?


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Is non-toxic shot required for drone shooting?


Would that not depend on what species of drone is used and its proximity to water?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Happy Gilmore said:
> 
> 
> > No drones until the tests are completed. Should be a rule. Gunners should shoot them down on the spot.
> ...


Have to use whatever brand sponsor the event.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Tobias said:


> I don't quite understand Paul's take on this. Except maybe he is referring to drones while competing dogs are running? I think everyone here is referring to drone footage of the test dogs.


Why not just let the handlers all walk out into the fields after test dog has run?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Happy Gilmore said:


> Tobias said:
> 
> 
> > I don't quite understand Paul's take on this. Except maybe he is referring to drones while competing dogs are running? I think everyone here is referring to drone footage of the test dogs.
> ...


We could also hand out judges books with the drawings of tests before everyone runs and have a pro help strategize how to run them best?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Happy Gilmore said:


> We could also hand out judges books with the drawings of tests before everyone runs and have a pro help strategize how to run them best?


 - having drone videos of the test dogs posted to youtube (or other devices) AFTER the series has been completed would mitigate whatever benefits they may have to handlers ..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Tobias said:


> Happy Gilmore said:
> 
> 
> > We could also hand out judges books with the drawings of tests before everyone runs and have a pro help strategize how to run them best?
> ...


How would you feel if your dog was required to be one of the first sets in the holding blind and meanwhile, the drone test dog footage is being downloaded and analyzed in a tent on a big screen and showed those people some sort of significant advantage that the folks running early never got to see? It will happen. If so, someones going to call the FTC and have easy proof others had an unfair advantage. 

I say they run a by dog at the end of a test and then those folks can do whatever they want sharing the video on the web. 

Otherwise, never a video of a test dog. No way. no how.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Your good Paul.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

moscowitz said:


> Your good Paul.


Quitters.... hahalol.
.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Happy Gilmore said:


> I say they run a by dog at the end of a test and then those folks can do whatever they want sharing the video on the web.


Thats a wonderful idea


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Paul - no one here is saying the footage of the test dogs should be downloaded in a big tent for all to see. I think you are misunderstanding... use a bye dog at the end, sure.... but what difference does it make - besides an extra20 minutes or more? LOL Person takes video while the 'authorities' on the ground have the computer that the videos are downloaded onto .... no one besides these two or three people see the video while it is taken.

Are you implying such people could be paid off ? 

Do not all the people who run later or have multiple dogs have more advantage than those who run early? Maybe they should not allow a gallery then? And no one can handle more than one dog?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

To me it is about: 

1) Creating interest in a sport that is contracting, not expanding. 

versus

2) A relatively minor advantage compared to other advantages

*Point 1*
I think that the former is obvious. Pat's drone coverage and commentary gave people who were not present at the National a bird's eye view of the test, and an appreciation for the decisions that handlers had to make running the test. I always looked forward to Pat's coverage as it offered me an insight to the National that the blog coverage did not. When my FT friends and I talked about the National, our discussions tended to center around Pat's coverage. When friends of mine wanted to know what FT are about, I would go to the diagrams, drone video, and Pat's commentary. I think Pat created considerable interest

*Point 2*

There is almost always a disadvantage to running early. I don't believe the drone coverage changes that significantly.

There are also a number of other advantage that no one has discussed eliminating in order to level the playing field:

1. Running more than one dog. (Multiple dog advantage)
2. Running a trial on grounds where you have previously run or trained. (Home field advantage)
3. Running a trial where your dogs can sleep in their kennels. (Home field advantage)
4. Knowing what tests that the judges want to run (Secret handshake advantage)

And of course,
5. Being a great handler
6. Having a great dog

In the balance, the benefits of Burns' drone coverage and commentary far outweigh the detriments.

Ted


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> To me it is about:
> 
> 1) Creating interest in a sport that is contracting, not expanding.
> A very important point that is often ignored.
> ...


I absolutely agree. 

Another point to consider is the speed of technology. 
In 10 years (or less) will it even be possible to prevent anyone that wants too from taking videos of the dogs?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> To me it is about:
> 
> 1) Creating interest in a sport that is contracting, not expanding.
> 
> ...


1. Giant font always helps a point get across

2. Pat's coverage is cool as long as its shared after the stake has been completed. 

3. Nuff said.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

I ran my first National Amateur in Montana this past summer and co-chaired the bird throwers committee in Boston, GA, so I don't have much experience with it. I watched a couple of Pat's videos before running as well as running before he had them up. I agree with Ted on the fact that I don't think it provides a significant advantage. If you have enough time for him to download it, you can see what more of the dogs do by sitting the the gallery. Most of the factors are obvious. It probably is more advantageous on blinds than marks. I would think the decision not to video it was to reduce the grumbling from the gallery or internet. 

I believe the easy solution would be to video the test dog delay posting until after the series is complete. I don't think a test dog at the end would be done. The last thing they want to do is take another 30 minutes each day after a LONG couple of weeks for the judges and workers. Pat's a good guy and is certainly trustworthy enough to hold out until the end. I believe the video coverage, interviews, etc. are a big time plus.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

bjoiner said:


> I ran my first National Amateur in Montana this past summer and co-chaired the bird throwers committee in Boston, GA, so I don't have much experience with it. I watched a couple of Pat's videos before running as well as running before he had them up. I agree with Ted on the fact that I don't think it provides a significant advantage. If you have enough time for him to download it, you can see what more of the dogs do by sitting the the gallery. Most of the factors are obvious. It probably is more advantageous on blinds than marks. I would think the decision not to video it was to reduce the grumbling from the gallery or internet.
> 
> I believe the easy solution would be to video the test dog delay posting until after the series is complete. I don't think a test dog at the end would be done. The last thing they want to do is take another 30 minutes each day after a LONG couple of weeks for the judges and workers. Pat's a good guy and is certainly trustworthy enough to hold out until the end. I believe the video coverage, interviews, etc. are a big time plus.


I was working at Montana that trial. Making judges books and doing set up. Why not just hand over the drawings and judges books to all the contestants? Drones are basically another piece of the drawings and diagrams? You want to walk out in the fields too before running? Where does it stop?


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Happy Gilmore said:


> I was working at Montana that trial. Making judges books and doing set up. Why not just hand over the drawings and judges books to all the contestants? Drones are basically another piece of the drawings and diagrams? You want to walk out in the fields too before running? Where does it stop?


Not sure where that came from. My suggestion is to delay publishing the video until after that series is over.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

bjoiner said:


> Not sure where that came from. My suggestion is to delay publishing the video until after that series is over.


Me either - but Paul seems to think we (rtfers) are requesting access to drone coverage immediately , when in reality we have simply requested to make it available AFTER the series is complete.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Me either - but Paul seems to think we (rtfers) are requesting access to drone coverage immediately , when in reality we have simply requested to make it available AFTER the series is complete.


I think he’s probably bored and enjoys playing devil’s advocate..........and he is a Chesapeake guy


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Paul also has Labs.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

EdA said:


> Tobias said:
> 
> 
> > Me either - but Paul seems to think we (rtfers) are requesting access to drone coverage immediately , when in reality we have simply requested to make it available AFTER the series is complete.
> ...


I misread a bunch of statements in that case. I did qualify my lab for the last am national. She came into season lol


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Tobias said:


> bjoiner said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure where that came from. My suggestion is to delay publishing the video until after that series is over.
> ...


Many comments on test dog footage and have seen it prior... and people say it was in a Pat Burns custom tent with dialogue. Seems kind of like a promotion of a trainer in a way too. Pat is a seminar guy selling a product. As one of the younger guys around the FT crowd I'm not sure I like a product or service related source providing particular access to media and information in general. Drones are easy as apple pie to use and cheap. AKC should be doing the official documentary if anyone is doing it. 

Drones are a dime a dozen. Maybe Ted needs to write some rules committee about making a standard procedure for addition to the rule book? It seems the book is not keeping up with the times and no doubt, some rules "shall" be written??? Hahalol


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