# Skipping stick fetch?



## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

I have a 6 month old pup who is doing great and we are almost completely through FF. His walking fetch is perfect and is lunging towards the bumper as soon as I give the fetch command. I started the walking fetch with a light stick tap yesterday (per Lardy method) and everything got very confusing for him and he no longer wanted to fetch. I was expecting this since Lardy says this can happen and he advises to just do an earpinch on any refusal with the light stick tap. I did this but we were not able to make any progress. We ended on a good note with just going back to walking fetch without the stick. 

I understand "why" the stick is used (1)to have the dog fetch through a distraction, and 2)another form of force which will be later be substituted by the ECollar), but I am just not really convinced its necessary. He is already lunging for the bumper when I give him the fetch command and has a solid hold. In my opinion he is fully FF. 

My plan is to move onto CC and then continue his collar work and traditional FTP and 3 handed casting. 

I am trying to discern if it is wise to skip stick fetch. I know Hillman doesnt do it and I have a pro friend who doesnt do it either. In my opinion it just seems like an unnecessary step. _I would like to hear from others who also have skipped this step and the pros and cons that have come with that. _

Thank you,
Mark


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

My pup had the same reaction. Pretty good with the whole process but the stick confused him.
I have an article from Lardy In which he talks about Hillmann’s method being better for some dogs. I’ll try and post it later


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

If you're new to dog training or to a given program - it is most often best to follow it to the letter for a number of dogs, until you are really solid on the fundamentals.


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

DarrinGreene said:


> If you're new to dog training or to a given program - it is most often best to follow it to the letter for a number of dogs, until you are really solid on the fundamentals.


Hi Darrin. This is the third retriever I have trained up but the first time I am contemplating skipping stick fetch. Still am interested in hearing from anyone who bypasses this step. Pros and cons etc.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Hank (by Pirate) was confused by the stick. I put him back on the table and did taps (very short stick) with fetch and ear pinch. That fixed the issue and then we went back to ground and normal stick fetch. I think Evan Graham does this.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I don't do stick fetch. I transition from ear pinch to collar very slowly using light pressure with both pinch and collar until the dog understands and is snappy. Then I move to collar only and then to walking fetch.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

In Lardy’s program, what happened with your dog is what is supposed to happen. You are not sticking him (tapping) to get him to fetch, you stick to get him to fetch despite being sticked. 

You get the refusal, fall back on the ear pinch, and it builds the compulsion and send in the marines attitude. 

It means you are training and not simply doing steps in the program. Congrats!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mark S said:


> Hi Darrin. This is the third retriever I have trained up but the first time I am contemplating skipping stick fetch. Still am interested in hearing from anyone who bypasses this step. Pros and cons etc.


Hey Mark, I used to think 3 was a big number. Then I worked a pro truck for 2 years and found out how little I knew. Just suggesting you not get ahead of yourself. 

Pro of skipping - You get to skip the step and move on. 
Cons of skipping as I see them - Your dog doesn't learn the critical lesson of fetching with a different type of pressure applied. You don't get the practice working through a sticky spot in the program. Your heeling stick, if you use one, is less useful in the future. 

The step IS about your dog working through a new form of reinforcement for their fetch command. It is not a mere distraction, if you look at how the stick is applied.It is avoidance training that extends itself into your e-collar scheme and your back command. The stick provides a transition point off the dog's ear and onto a different part of their body. Also - and this is important - using a collar on the dog's neck tends to drive them backward. They need to be very clear on the idea that they move forward with the back command so you can transition to the unnatural placement of the e-collar. The stick being applied from the rear drives the dog in that direction and enhances their understanding of "back means go". The concept is derived from the days when whips and slingshots were used to reinforce back. I think it's valuable to have that versatility in your reinforcement scheme. 

Just for perspective - I've skipped the step successfully in the past with 5-6 dogs. 

I won't skip it on the next dog I do. I used to skip restrained recall - no longer. I used to skip a lot of stuff, until I got bitten in the butt a few times with weaker than required responses. 

Follow the program Buddy. My recommendation.


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

DarrinGreene said:


> Hey Mark, I used to think 3 was a big number. Then I worked a pro truck for 2 years and found out how little I knew. Just suggesting you not get ahead of yourself.
> 
> Pro of skipping - You get to skip the step and move on.
> Cons of skipping as I see them - Your dog doesn't learn the critical lesson of fetching with a different type of pressure applied. You don't get the practice working through a sticky spot in the program. Your heeling stick, if you use one, is less useful in the future.
> ...



Thank you for the reply Darrin. I agree with you that training 3 dogs is not a big number. The more I learn about training the more I realize how little I know.

The stick will not be in my training program once I get through the yard. Just a personal decision I made for this pup. But I will definitely consider not skipping the stick fetch based on your feedback. Thanks again.


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## Andy (Apr 20, 2004)

Mark S said:


> I am trying to discern if it is wise to skip stick fetch.


Well, I cannot attest to the wisdom of skipping stick fetch, but I've skipped it with the last several dogs that I've trained. My reason was because it seemed to reduce the utility of a heeling stick for other purposes. I was probably doing stick fetch wrong, but the work necessary to get them over (or through) being intimidated by the stick was simply greater than the perceived the benefit I got from it. If necessary, I will use other tools to enhance the compulsion to fetch despite distractions.
Andy


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

Andy said:


> Well, I cannot attest to the wisdom of skipping stick fetch, but I've skipped it with the last several dogs that I've trained. My reason was because it seemed to reduce the utility of a heeling stick for other purposes. I was probably doing stick fetch wrong, but the work necessary to get them over (or through) being intimidated by the stick was simply greater than the perceived the benefit I got from it. If necessary, I will use other tools to enhance the compulsion to fetch despite distractions.
> Andy


That is an interesting comment you make Andy. And I say that because I think that really gets to the root of my question. That of "Why am I doing this step and what am I trying to accomplish?" Lardy makes it pretty clear that the _primary_ reason he does stick fetch is to create "compulsion" in the dog. But Hillman does not do this step, and yet his dogs all have compulsion in pile work. I recently heard Hillman quote Wolters in which he said, "Force does not make one go faster."

Now we all know Hillman is not against force per se. He uses it lightly in his CC and FTP. But he doesn't use force to create or bring out "compulsion" or "desire". And yet when you watch his dogs retrieve, or do pile work for that matter, they do it with much compulsion and desire. Because that desire or compulsion is brought out of the dog through other means. Means that one could argue keep the dog happier and more relaxed. 

I am just talking out loud here guys. I think about this stuff a lot.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

The dogs that I've put through FF(minus stick fetch) haven't shown any lack of compulsion. I get all the compulsion I need in walking fetch.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> The dogs that I've put through FF(minus stick fetch) haven't shown any lack of compulsion. I get all the compulsion I need in walking fetch.


I totally agree, you have to read your dog. My last two females were very good workers, did great on walking fetch, but when I went to stick fetch, they got so worried about the stick it became counter productive. So we moved on to collar fetch, and they did very well. For my current young dog who is now 2, when he went thru force fetch, then walking fetch, then on to stick fetch, stick did not phase him like it did the girls. Quickened him up, then on to collar fetch. I do not believe one dog is better forced than the other. The girls were a bit mroe sensitive, not in a bnad way but took less pressure for the same response. He can take corrections, not as sensitive, takes a stronger correction. Not all dogs fit the same peg hole.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mark S said:


> Lardy makes it pretty clear that the _primary_ reason he does stick fetch is to create "compulsion" in the dog.
> 
> I recently heard Hillman quote Wolters in which he said, "Force does not make one go faster."
> 
> But he doesn't use force to create or bring out "compulsion" or "desire".


Just to take these in order - to Mike's comment - this is basic avoidance training - get away from Dad and avoid the stick. It is very very powerful reinforcement. That's why it can cause some stress when it's initially introduced. It's worth having. 

Bill quoting Wolters - Well, you could argue that statement but in this context - the stick is about reliability, not so much about "speed". It will create both, but it's the reliability you're after. 

As for Bill not using "force" per se - that actually depends on how you define "force". Bill is doing the exact same psychological routine with the collar as you do with the stick. It's not different at all, really. He's just using the collar dialed down to an annoying but not overbearing level to create avoidance in the dog. You could do the same by modulating the stick. 

If you're a thinker - you have to get yourself a better/full understanding of escape/avoidance training and how it effects reliability and performance. Once you have that, you'll readily be able to identify the similarities and differences in various reinforcement schemes. 

Bill has done a great job re-framing retriever work to suit people who want results but recoil at some of the traditional, "harsh" training methods. In the end though, he's using the same basic scheme of psychology as the old methods. It's really not possible to avoid the animal's nature. Any training has to suit that nature or it won't work. We can describe it differently, talk about what we "think" the dog is "thinking" and surmise a lot of things that make rational sense, but in fact - the dog's basic biology drives the program. 

In a traditional program higher levels of "pressure" are applied vs. Hillman but in the end - it's all the same training.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

One of the purposes of the basics is to teach a dog how to avoid pressure. As such, you look at panic, confusion, etc. as opportunities to reinforce the stability of the platform.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> One of the purposes of the basics is to teach a dog how to avoid pressure. As such, you look at panic, confusion, etc. as opportunities to reinforce the stability of the platform.


I feel I get this same effect during brisk moving walking fetch with ear pinch reinforcement if dog fails to pickup bumper.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> I feel I get this same effect during brisk moving walking fetch with ear pinch reinforcement if dog fails to pickup bumper.


What if the dog doesn’t fail to pick up a bumper? Since I started using Hillmann ish puppy program, my dogs don’t fail to pick up a bumper until I add the tap of the stick.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

As I understand the Lardy program, in addition to the points made by other posters, stick fetch also prepares the dog for forcing with the buggy whip later in the program.


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## Rob DeHaven (Jan 6, 2003)

Whats an example of something that could or has happened and you thought, I'm glad my dog had the stick used on them or I wish I hadn't skipped the stick?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

captainjack said:


> What if the dog doesn’t fail to pick up a bumper? Since I started using Hillmann ish puppy program, my dogs don’t fail to pick up a bumper until I add the two of the stick.


Haven't had that issue. I move really fast during walking fetch and don't slow down for the dog. If they miss, they get reinforced with ear pinch(even if they are trying to fetch and we are past the bumper I consider it a failure). It makes them REALLY snappy. If I ever had zero failures, I might consider adding the stick for a day or 2.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Rob DeHaven said:


> Whats an example of something that could or has happened and you thought, I'm glad my dog had the stick used on them or I wish I hadn't skipped the stick?


Every time the dog goes on command you should be thankful and every time they don't, you should be wondering about that skipped step and whether it would have prevented the problem.

It's funny because I'm long past the stage where I can innovate successfully but the more dogs I do - the more I find it easier to just stick to the program (no pun intended). 

I never stick fetched a dog and I've done a fair few. I will from now on more than likely. 

If you see a guy innovating he's either an idiot or a genius - Anthony Matarese - multiple time world champion clay shooter


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

It also transitions into collar fetch (fetch nick fetch). You can disagree with me if you want. But.... why would it not in the confines of the flow chart in the program?

What are the the top ten causes that stick fetch is a mystery? Let's start a top ten list.

Top Ten (or 20) List

1. Perhaps you didn't integrate the use of the stick with correction of the choke chain on sit so that it can mean different things.

2. Maybe you did an extra good job at number one and made a big impression.

3. Maybe you don't give freebys during walking fetch.

4. Maybe you have done a good job of making your dog steady with the stick.

5. etc....


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## [email protected] (Jul 16, 2018)

In my opinion if the collar is used properly u can skip ear pinch and stick fetch. I go straight to the collar immediately after hold is complete. I do have a forcing table that I utilize which allows me complete control of the animal. I believe that the stick and the ear pinch are extremely disheartening and beat young dogs down too much specifically sensitive dogs. In my training program attitude is everything. If I see the pressure getting to the dogs I’ll stop and build them up for several days. I use the lightest amount of pressure possible for the desired response. With that being said don’t get in any hurry I think amateur trainers push dogs and try to stay on a timetable. Bottom line it’s gonna take as long as it takes. Don’t rush the dog. If you are determined to do stick fetch which is fine I’d go slow with very very short sessions. Try to make him successful if u can. He just sounds a little confused which is completely normal. Stay with it start with a very light tap with the whip until he understands the game.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> One of the purposes of the basics is to teach a dog how to avoid pressure. As such, you look at panic, confusion, etc. as opportunities to reinforce the stability of the platform.


Well said. 

Another phrase I like is, “Don’t root for the dog.”


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> One of the purposes of the basics is to teach a dog how to avoid pressure. As such, you look at panic, confusion, etc. as opportunities to reinforce the stability of the platform.


It's adding another form of pressure and ending the pressure when the dog is doing what you want. It is knowing how it is going to end. It is knowing how it is going to happen before you even do it. It's Ivan Pavlov, ha,ha. Waw Law, now you have two forms of pressure.


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## DH (Oct 3, 2006)

drunkenpoacher said:


> My pup had the same reaction. Pretty good with the whole process but the stick confused him.
> I have an article from Lardy In which he talks about Hillmann’s method being better for some dogs. I’ll try and post it later


I'd love to see that article if you could post it.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

DH said:


> I'd love to see that article if you could post it.


I bet it doesn't say his basics are done that way. If you watch the you tube video taken from the newest Lardy/Farmer video, it says the opposite. Listen to Jim VanEagan and Andy Attar in that video. I can't remember the ladies name right off hand. It is spoken about in that.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

What is it that you are trying to accomplish with stick fetch? 

What are you teaching the dog with stick fetch? 

Can you accomplish those goals through other means? 

There are a lot of extremely successful trainers that do things differently. 

If I deviate at all from the progression I'm following I think about what it is I'm trying to accomplish and if the new method accomplishes the same thing but just in a different way. 

I had a dog that was confused with stick fetch but just worked on my timing and used very light taps. Then gradually increased and used more of the swings behind the dog vs actually making contact. 

The point being, as Lardy states, is to create that escape response or to create the situation where the dog believes he/she has beat the pressure. 

I wouldn't skip it but if you have a good read on your dog and believe it won't be hindrance moving forward you'll probably be just fine. 

My opinion for what it's worth which isn't much...


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Bryan Parks said:


> The point being, as Lardy states, is to create that escape response or to create the situation where the dog believes he/she has beat the pressure.


I feel I get this same 'escape' response from reaching for the dog's ear but not pinching(assuming he fetches quick as expected) as we are going through walking fetch. I'll just touch the ear and the dog lunges to fetch and feels he beat the pressure. Whether that's the right way? It very well may not be, but I get through force fetch with a dog that is snappy and has a good pressure response.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> I feel I get this same 'escape' response from reaching for the dog's ear but not pinching(assuming he fetches quick as expected) as we are going through walking fetch. I'll just touch the ear and the dog lunges to fetch and feels he beat the pressure. Whether that's the right way? It very well may not be, but I get through force fetch with a dog that is snappy and has a good pressure response.


Aren't you all quoting Lardy regarding stick to pile, not stick fetch?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

DL said:


> bamajeff said:
> 
> 
> > I feel I get this same 'escape' response from reaching for the dog's ear but not pinching(assuming he fetches quick as expected) as we are going through walking fetch. I'll just touch the ear and the dog lunges to fetch and feels he beat the pressure. Whether that's the right way? It very well may not be, but I get through force fetch with a dog that is snappy and has a good pressure response.
> ...


I need to re-watch but I do know that he does the same thing in stick fetch with regard to hitting the ground behind the dog. He taps them on the rear as well.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

There are basics and there are basics. Over the years, trainers have eliminated stick fetch, the double T, and swim by. It results in a faster process, but I think a less reliable platform. If you see Pat Burns, ask him what he thinks about the state of basics. You can have Hillman. I believe in the Carr/Aycock model.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> There are basics and there are basics. I believe in the Carr/Aycock model.


It would be interesting to see a survey or poll that quantifies the number of high performers in the last several years that have had basics done by Hillman method vs. "conventional".

MP


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> It would be interesting to see a survey or poll that quantifies the number of high performers in the last several years that have had basics done by Hillman method vs. "conventional".
> 
> MP


I think that Bill’s approach is more attractive to new and mostly amateur trainers than to those of us who have decades in the trenches having seen many competitive dogs and the long term results of tried and true methods.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> It would be interesting to see a survey or poll that quantifies the number of high performers in the last several years that have had basics done by Hillman method vs. "conventional".
> 
> MP


However, "conventional" could mean many significantly different methods, from different trainers. 
Would not be a good comparison if it was just Hillmann vs other. I use Hillmann for puppy, right up to FF, then I switch over to Lardy/Carr from then on. 
Interestingly "conventional" used to mean no e-collar.<VBG>.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

NateB said:


> However, "conventional" could mean many significantly different methods, from different trainers.
> Would not be a good comparison if it was just Hillmann vs other. I use Hillmann for puppy, right up to FF, then I switch over to Lardy/Carr from then on.


That's pretty much the model I follow as well. Stick fetch is really the only thing I diverge on. And I guess if you 'technically' follow Carr, you have to do slingshot fetch as well. They demonstrated it as part of Rex's program at the Carr-Rorem seminar.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> That's pretty much the model I follow as well. Stick fetch is really the only thing I diverge on. And I guess if you 'technically' follow Carr, you have to do slingshot fetch as well. They demonstrated it as part of Rex's program at the Carr-Rorem seminar.


Slingshot FTP not FF though more or less a technicality, just switching from one form of pressure to another.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Both Lardy and Farmer give a nod to Hillmann's puppy methods in regards to early steadying. 

I don't know anyone but Chris and few on the forum that are using Hillmann's FF and basics program. I know a lot of new trainers getting involved in HTs and they all are on board with ear pinch FF and what I would refer to as conventional CC as Lardy/Farmer and mist other accomplished trainers demonstrate. 

I personally tried going 100% Hillmann with my first dog and I had issues. I ended up switching to Lardy. I am glad I went through that with my first dog because my second dog was tailor made for the Hillmann program. I believe if I had her first I would have continued with his program. I believe in the big scheme of things it would have hindered me as a trainer. 

However, I find it interesting that the old school trainers preach being open to change and new things but then turn their noses up at some of the new ideas being used.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> However, I find it interesting that the old school trainers preach being open to change and new things but then turn their noses up at some of the new ideas being used.


If you are referencing me, and I assume you must be even though I don’t preach, I/we ascribe to the famous line Darrell K. Royal uttered when asked about his coaching philosophy in a bowl game “dance with who brung you”. Skins on the wall trump platitudes every time.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

EdA said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > However, I find it interesting that the old school trainers preach being open to change and new things but then turn their noses up at some of the new ideas being used.
> ...


No Ed I wasn't. I don't have an issue with sticking to a proven method. You've been nothing but cordial on here and helpful. 


I have issue with those who look down on new trainers trying to learn. Then preach being open to other methods as long as it's the ones they think are better.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

A long time ago my mentor, where I apprenticed, told me in regard to the force process you don't know what you're doing until you've done a 100 dogs. I think this is overstated now with videos and forums such as this. But you need to train a number of dogs until you are really accomplished in the force fetch, etc process. I don't know what that number is but it is more than a couple.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bryan Parks said:


> However, I find it interesting that the old school trainers preach being open to change and new things but then turn their noses up at some of the new ideas being used.


What's "new" to you and maybe even new to the marketplace at large may not be new to someone a bit longer in the tooth. 

Bill's not doing anything all that different BTW. Try to FF a malinois with an ear pinch. Wear gloves (to your elbows) and pray a lot.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Well then since college football is upon us great dog trainers are like this Bum Phillips quotable about Bear Bryant, classic...
Bear Bryant can take his’n and beat your’n or then he can turn around and take your’n and beat his’n. 😊


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> However, I find it interesting that the old school trainers preach being open to change and new things but then turn their noses up at some of the new ideas being used.


Frankly, I don't know who you are referencing. As for "new" ideas, I am with Ed. I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. Over the years, I have competed against many dogs with sloppy mouths and loopy sits. I have trained with dogs who would not reliably go, stop, and return. Invariably, when you went poking around, you find poor basics.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > However, I find it interesting that the old school trainers preach being open to change and new things but then turn their noses up at some of the new ideas being used.
> ...


I'm just trying to stay open to anything. Maybe after I've been in he game for a lot longer I'll have formulated a better understanding. I don't have the luxury of washing out a dog. I'm not saying anyone involved in this thread does. 

I'm just saying that with each dog that I start I want to do what's best for that particular dog. I am a firm believer in Lardy's basic program but within that program I have found that there are certain methods that I have picked up from another program that worked better for a certain dog...but staying with the progression laid out in TRT2. 

So far I have zero dogs with loopy sits and sloppy mouths. 

I did have a 2 year dog brought to me with a loopy sit that I attempted to fix with some success. 

Not trying to single out anyone here. I'm just saying that I'm attempting to be the Phase 3 type trainer as much as I can.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Many have offered opinions on whether or not you should use stick fetch but no one has said why stick fetch should be part of the program so here is my take on the subject.
Several have stated here that their dog became very upset when stick fetched to the pile. This is to be expected but if you want to see your dog get Really upset try e collar force to the pile without sticking first.
E collar pressure does not come from any particular direction so when e pressure is applied in force to pile, the dog is as likely to decide it came from in front of him as he is to decide it came from behind him.
Stick fetch comes from behind no matter what, and the reason dogs get upset is because they don’t understand that pressure means they should drive deeper/harder. That is what stick fetch teaches and, in doing so prepares the dog so he then understands that e collar fetch means the same thing.
This is no different than starting with ear pinch, then toe cinch then e collar fetch when force fetching.
When this is done properly, you are able to motivate the dog with the e collar rather than punish.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> Many have offered opinions on whether or not you should use stick fetch but no one has said why stick fetch should be part of the program so here is my take on the subject.
> Several have stated here that their dog became very upset when stick fetched to the pile. This is to be expected but if you want to see your dog get Really upset try e collar force to the pile without sticking first.



I personally haven't seen this issue with dog's I've put through FF. After dog has been taught fetch with collar stim from hand and on ground, I add collar stim as last component of walking fetch(after dog is showing very good compulsion to fetch at a brisk pace). Once walking fetch is over, I move right into force to pile at a short distance and get the dog walking at heel towards the pile and command fetch with collar stim starting fairly low and working my way up. Once this is complete, I move to a different location and start formal pile work.


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

If you say that you follow this program or that program, but you really don't follow the program. Are you really following the program?!? :???:


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

jforqueran said:


> If you say that you follow this program or that program, but you really don't follow the program. Are you really following the program?!? :???:


Farmer/Aycock, Evan Graham, Dave Rorem, Lardy all spent time learning from Rex Carr himself, yet they all have some differences in their training methods.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I hit upon this earlier. Stick fetch adds another form of pressure ala Ivan Pavlov. It transitions into collar fetch.

Collar fetch is fetch nick fetch. If someone does more than fetch nick fetch, that is their work around?

In regards to talking to Pat Burns about basics, I went to a seminar about four years ago. He said something about it being a plus to be able to understand and do it every which possible in that seminar. We had many inexperienced people at that seminar and a lot of Goldens.

I shouldn’t be talking about it. I do think my points have been valid. They would be missing if I didn’t state them. My current dog is not even technically force fetched. I think I got one that was difficult to do. He is a little messed up because of that and another issue. I think he is handling great though. You can make a dog wacky in the head if you are not careful.


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

bamajeff said:


> Farmer/Aycock, Evan Graham, Dave Rorem, Lardy all spent time learning from Rex Carr himself, yet they all have some differences in their training methods.


You are correct! But the difference between them and us is the fact that they have all seen hundreds upon hundreds of dogs! Most of us have only seen a hadful! It would be in our best interest to adopt a program and try and train to that program to the best of our abilities. Rather than say, I follow this program, but question the program when we run into a problem rather than try and problem solve the problem!


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

jforqueran said:


> You are correct! But the difference between them and us is the fact that they have all seen hundreds upon hundreds of dogs! Most of us have only seen a hadful! It would be in our best interest to adopt a program and try and train to that program to the best of our abilities. Rather than say, I follow this program, but question the program when we run into a problem rather than try and problem solve the problem!


I never said anything about running into a problem. I said just the opposite. I get the desired response(compulsion to fetch and fetching through distractions) without having to use the stick. I do agree with your sentiment(ie: not skipping lots of steps or making wholesale changes), but we still have to train the dog in front of us. The last dog I FF'd just went to a pro and he text me this morning and said his FF was very thorough/solid. If I felt at all like I was short changing the dog or getting less than desirable results, I would add the stick.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Who really cares how well force fetch other than someone who paid to have it done .... then proceeds to confuse the hell out of dog until it won’t pick up what is in front of it? That person cares. Picking up a bumper or a bird in front of it is not the same as handling. I think if someone wacks out a dog too much during force fetch it can affect the rest of it’s training. But .... a trainer needs to do for Joe Blow. Am I right?


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

bamajeff said:


> I personally haven't seen this issue with dog's I've put through FF. After dog has been taught fetch with collar stim from hand and on ground, I add collar stim as last component of walking fetch(after dog is showing very good compulsion to fetch at a brisk pace). Once walking fetch is over, I move right into force to pile at a short distance and get the dog walking at heel towards the pile and command fetch with collar stim starting fairly low and working my way up. Once this is complete, I move to a different location and start formal pile work.



/\ /\ That's about it! /\ /\


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> Farmer/Aycock, Evan Graham, Dave Rorem, Lardy all spent time learning from Rex Carr himself, yet they all have some differences in their training methods.



​And as this pertains to basics, you know this how?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> ​And as this pertains to basics, you know this how?


I own Lardy's, Farmer/Aycock, Graham's programs(Rorem hasn't produced one, though he did demonstrate taking a dog through most of the basics on the Carr-Rorem seminar) and have watched each several times over.


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

Thank you for all the posts everyone. I appreciate the responses. I have decided to not use Stick to fetch and my pups training is progressing wonderfully. The walking fetch with an ear pinch followed by collar fetch were plenty to communicate the lesson to pup and get a snappy compulsive response. No question that his FF is solid and sound.

My opinion is that STP is not a necessary step if you are getting the snappy compulsive response you want. I think it's important to remember that not everyone of theses steps need to be followed to the letter of the law. So many pros and good amateur trainers have different methods to accomplish the same end. There certainly is more than one way to skin a cat in this game. Reading your dog and following sound methods is prudent, yet there is still room for creativity and implementing other methods. For example Hillman doesn't use traditional CC,FF,STP, or FTP methods. He also doesn't do the double T or pattern blinds. Yet we all rightfully esteem him. I do believe there is wisdom in reading your dog and blending some of these philosophies if you feel it would be good for your dog. For example I did a traditional FF with my pup but am doing the Hilllman CC., and am confident my pup will be just fine as a result. 

Enjoy the weekend everyone!

Mark S


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## Gray_Chin (Feb 24, 2017)

Mark S said:


> He also doesn't do the double T or pattern blinds.


Actually he does do pattern blinds, if you have it, re-watch land fundamentals...that gives me pause... and questioning stick fetch with FF...but doing Hillmann CC...and to much blending... may very well be a recipe for problems...What is ultimately good, and as training advances fair, for a dog, is absolute bomb proof basics...and for me training my last couple dogs, this involves the "traditional" pressure response, and with that, I have found that Hillmann's puppy through advanced material provides a fantastic platform for maintaining balance and TEACHING, and then forcing / reinforcing as needed, when skills and situations advance, which is not reinventing the wheel or even blending, its just good training.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Hillmann's FTP and T work are almost identical except no TT. The big difference just being the level of stim. A lot more marking the pile and he does the forced over "power cast". 

Great for a dog that needs a little more upbeat pace and attitude. 

Still very similar and easy to do Hillmann's pile work with regard to style and use more pressure as Lardy demonstrates. 

I find the two programs mesh beautifully, especially for the guy who trains alone a lot. 

Hillmann's program demonstrates how to do all the drills by yourself with Lardy's program that is great at teaching and demonstrating the purpose and use of the collar and "force" training (which I feel is a terrible word for it).


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

Bryan Parks said:


> Hillmann's FTP and T work are almost identical except no TT. The big difference just being the level of stim. A lot more marking the pile and he does the forced over "power cast".
> 
> Great for a dog that needs a little more upbeat pace and attitude.
> 
> ...



Well said. I agree fully that the two mesh together nicely. When I spoke of Hillman not doing the traditional method of FTP I was speaking strictly of the level of force he uses. Enough to communicate the message but not enough for a yelp that could result in flaring or bugging. Love it. Hillman teaches the same concepts with a lower level of force while being very intentional on keeping the dogs attitude high.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Lardy's bio does not mention any training with Rex Carr as was stated in a previous post.





r


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

bamajeff said:


> I own Lardy's, Farmer/Aycock, Graham's programs(Rorem hasn't produced one, though he did demonstrate taking a dog through most of the basics on the Carr-Rorem seminar) and have watched each several times over.


Actually Rorem does have a training video! I think it's called the art and science of handling a retriever or training a retriever.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

If you can’t follow it 109%, it isn’t much of a program.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Lardy's bio does not mention any training with Rex Carr as was stated in a previous post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mike traveled and winter trained with Jim Kappes who spent significant time with Rex.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

jforqueran said:


> Actually Rorem does have a training video! I think it's called the art and science of handling a retriever or training a retriever.


Yes and I have it as well, but it doesn't cover basics. That's what I was alluding to. It's technically a handling video, not a training video


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm an amateur too. I've probably got 7 dogs under my belt. I used to skip stick fetch. More from being in a hurry to get to blinds than anything. Result...I got a lot of problems in the TT. Flaring, bugging, poor attitude, etc. Now I know all of that wasn't just from skipping stick fetch, but some of it was. With this latest dog I stayed patient. He was slow to mature and so I didn't FF him till almost a year. I was very thorough on all the steps this time. I used stick fetch to proof my FF. I tried to make him give me a refusal with the stick so I could use it as a teaching opportunity with an ear pinch. It worked great. I get a better more stable response from this dog than from any I've had before. We went through TT with no bugging, flaring, popping etc. He has his issues, mostly he takes longer to learn a new concept. He spent a good bit of time turning the wrong way on back casts because he was in such a hurry to GO! NOW! he wouldn't pay attention to which hand I put up. But other than that he has been very solid.

That is a long way to go to say I've done it both ways and thorough with the stick fetch is better. IMO of course. No one pays me for it by the way.


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