# Field bred labradors and agility trials?



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Wondering how they compare to good working border collies/Aussie's etc in agility trials? 

Do the high end agility folk select for compact shape? Smaller labradors, ie not +80 pounds?

Difference in speed?

Difference in jumping ability?

Difference in temperament?

Drive/desire similar?

Thankyou.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I can only answer on what I see around here. Most are lighter boned than the standard calls for -- very fast, but not necessarily well structured, so it'll be interesting to see how long they hold up. They CAN compete w/ the Border Collies timewise, but you have to realize that agility isn't all about speed either. Sometimes "Speed Kills" those lightning fast ones on the AKC courses here because there are all kinds of traps at the Excellent levels. I've definitely seen some "sharp" temperaments, but not w/ all.

The field labs are not as compact as I'd like to see (but then that's a personal gripe I have about many of my own dogs too!). OTOH, the longer backed lab seems to have more flexibility in the spine to make the tight turns and tend to have better movement out there. 

I have a blended breeding that looks to have some promise. A couple of us are having issues giving our dogs the directions fast enough, however... :razz: It's a B getting older...

So how are you doing Aussie? Thinking of taking up agility now too?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Sharp as in aggressive? Due to poor nerves? Frustration? Last time I observed agility was years ago. Noted some high end Border collies spinning at the start, but thought it was more to a training issue. 

Been asked if I would be willing to place a bitch in an agility home (breeders terms would apply). 

(I am well thankyou ++++)


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## canebrake (Oct 23, 2006)

I have been competing in agility 12 years now. Many of my friends who started with sporting dogs have now switched to bc's. Honestly, I can't imagine wanting more speed or enthusiasm than my labs. All of my labs that I have ran have been out of field trial lines (thank you ft'ers for the genes and intelligence  My young lab is very fast and athletic. He has placed first several times in his events even with his middle aged mom. 

Here are my answers to your questions: 
Do the high end agility folk select for compact shape? Smaller labradors, ie not +80 pounds? I prefer smaller labs- agility is hard on their bodies and also if i have navigation error, 80 lbs coming towards me full speed would not be fun. 

Difference in speed?
won't lie, most Bc's are faster - 35 lbs versus 55 or so. I'll take my labs any day. 

Difference in jumping ability?
My labs have had awesome jumping skills.

Difference in temperament?
Workaholic in training and trials - great to live with and travel. 

Drive/desire similar?
Yes

This is video of scarlett who won Akc Invitational - Awesome dog out of "Nitro" 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsRA18lbKhk&feature=related

This is a young dog out of our last breeding - "Dusty x my Breeze" She was the largest puppy in the litter. Mom is a vet and didn't care if big - probably 65 lbs or so and nearly 24 inches tall - You can see how athletic she is in the video. she won this event with some of the top bcs in New England area and Canada too. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sYS0d3sAqw&feature=relmfu

-Hope this helps.


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## kmanning913 (Feb 5, 2010)

I fully agree with Martha. I just returned from the AKC National Championships with my girl, and could not be more proud of her.

She is 22.5"/50#, extremely athletic, fast and drivey. Her temperament is sweet and easy to live with.

She can hold her own in the 24" class, and I, personally, would never consider changing to another breed.

Kari Manning and Emmy
Spokane, WA


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Aussie said:


> Sharp as in aggressive? Due to poor nerves? Frustration?


Some dogs get self absorbed and space protective so they can't seem to tolerate the very congested, crazy agility atmospheres and may be prone to "snitting" without warning. That behavior is not atypical of the high driving BC's and some other breeds, but now it's sad to see it showing up in our wonderful breed too where solid "bomb proof" temperament used to always be a given. The dogs that are snitty at trials seem to be like that in everyday life as well, whether that is due to the environment they are raised in (ie lack of socialization and basic manners or just being spoiled) or if it's genetic, I can't say, but it's not what people expect to see in a Labrador. 

My idea of the perfect dog for agility is the one that is structurally very balanced, a little lighter on bone, as tall as you can get and still be in the lowest jump height possible (iow, slightly < or equal to 22" to be in the 20" class in AKC) and very happy go lucky/tolerant/ bomb proof. Around here it seems like Yellow is the preferred agility color due to heat/outdoor trials but my best ones are black....


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

There are a lot of really nice field bred Labs doing AMAZING things in the U.S. agility world. There is a growing number in Canada too. In fact, our agility world team has seen representation from a Lab on a couple occasions (Chopper's littermate) and this dog's handler has won Nationals with her other dogs as well. She has a couple of youngsters sired by Kicker that I'm sure will blow the socks off the BC's in years to come. I have placed several really nice athletic little Labs with people who are capable of taking them to a high level as well, so it will be fun to watch them progress. 

I have not seen the temperament issues in Labs at trials up here that Anne is referring to, but there really aren't a lot of Labs in comparison to the herding breeds, which seem to very frequently have fear and aggression issues or are at least very reactive. 

Most of the serious agility people prefer a smaller size Lab (50-55 lbs ish), and the ones that I know have done a good job researching pedigrees to stack the deck in their favor size and structure-wise, more so now than in past years. I also agree with Martha that size is a safety factor- my dogs are all around 55 pounds but one mutant giant male (Howdy son) that is 83 pounds and I do my bestest to stay out of his path. A collision would almost certainly end my athletic career and I go into every run with him with a little bit of fear! lol (I also limit repetitious training with the big dog and he doesn't trial as often as I think that the impact of each jump is much harder on him that it is on the wee labbies).


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I do HRC and agility with my dogs. Have not done it with my 2 1/2 yo, as he is not as keen as the other two nor as good. My older dog did excellent in agility. He is still running Veterans so the jumps are lower for a going on 10 yo dog. My pup Chief who has Cosmos in him is going to be really fast and good at agility. He has had one puppy agility class and is now taking more. His problem will be his speed and focus but that will come with age. He probably will be a better FT than HRC dog. Both dogs that do the agility are finer boned than the pet Labs, fast, good temperments, great desire and drive. Both weigh around 67 pounds. 
I like to do the agilty to build stamina in your dog and it is a great sport to do up here in the winter months. It is just too bad but I find it hard to stick with both and train both. It is alot of work so I run more and train for HRC. 
Not a fan of BC!Sorry and immensely dislike when they do things to their vocal cords so they can't bark!! A good well bred Lab can do just as well in agility!!!IMO


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## Bknightlabs (Apr 6, 2012)

Aussie,

I run both an Aussie and a Lab. The Aussie is 18.0", 37# and the Lab is 20.25" and 47#. Both would qualify as very fast, usually placing and qualifying if I keep my head together. My first agillity Labs were 23.25" 73# and 22.0", 63#, now 13 1/2 and 13 yo, full sisters. I have had Labs for nearly 60 years.
The Labs all come from field lines, the Aussie from working lines.

Wondering how they compare to good working border collies/Aussie's etc in agility trials? 
They occasionally beat the BCs. Even 47# vs 35# makes a big difference. They hold their own with the Aussies.

Do the high end agility folk select for compact shape? Smaller labradors, ie not +80 pounds?

I chose to have the smaller size for ease on their body and speed. The 63# dog ran at full height through age 10, 4" lower at 11, retired at 12. The larger Lab retired at 10, but had been jumping 4" lower since 5 when she blew a cruciate.

Difference in speed? The smallest Lab is the fastest of all 4. When I run her on the same course as the Aussie, she runs 5.5-6 yps on jumpers courses, the Aussie 4.5-5.

Difference in jumping ability? The Aussie seldom drops a bar. the Lab frequently - she jumps like a BC. At least 50% of the dropped bars are my fault.The 63# Lab jumped much like the Aussie and virtually never dropped a bar. 

Difference in temperament? The two younger dogs are the most similar in temperament in an actual trial situation - high drive, noisy and loving their job. At home, they are relaxed unless retrieving or competing with each other. Older Labs - the smaller was bomb proof; the larger had space issues with dogs but loved all people, especially kids. She had a couple of unfortunate incidents with other dogs attacking her as a young dog that may have led to this Rx.

I found the young Lab would not run for any one else - the Aussie will run for me and my husband. That may just be because we live isolated and they don't have the chance on a regular basis for training, then trialing.

Drive/desire similar? Drive with the two younger is similar though the Lab can never get enough work, play, training or competing. The Aussie will do an exercise 2 or 3 times, get it, and then lose interest. But generally she is more bidable. The older dogs were never as interested in training but gave their all in competition.

Probably the hardest thing for me is to see a big Lab jumping and hearing the whomp as they hit on the other side of the jump. Jump lower and with less weight.

As Martha said, a big fear is the difference of 47# colliding with you vs 73# as happened with my husband. His life is different now.

Betty Knight
Dyna and Boo (Aussie)
Soot and Kenzie (retired)


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

I know nothing about agility trials other than a few videos I have seen. I know of one little black lab female owned by Mary Bush that's super quick. I tried to find a video with no success but I would guess she's about 45lbs and does really well in the speed category. This little girl is out of my Patton/Rita male. Danielle Pellicci's little ylf Spice isn't too shabby either. I was hoping Danielle or Mary would chime in on this thread since both of them have run agility with labs. I have no interest in running agility trials with my labs but I think it's a cool sport and I love watching it, especially when the Labs are running.

Nice videos canebrake.


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## canebrake (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks Brian. I love watching field and hope to compete some day when the knees can't take agility (may be sooner than later). Here is a link to more agility videos. 

http://fastlabs.limecreek.com/report/labs-videos

not to exclude any other sporting breeds, have seen some awesome goldens, chessies, weims, etc. We had a Boykin a long time ago that would have been awesome too. My husband has a elhew bred pointer that i would love to get my hands on for agility


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Brian Cockfield said:


> I know nothing about agility trials other than a few videos I have seen. I know of one little black lab female owned by Mary Bush that's super quick. I tried to find a video with no success but I would guess she's about 45lbs and does really well in the speed category. This little girl is out of my Patton/Rita male. Danielle Pellicci's little ylf Spice isn't too shabby either. I was hoping Danielle or Mary would chime in on this thread since both of them have run agility with labs. I have no interest in running agility trials with my labs but I think it's a cool sport and I love watching it, especially when the Labs are running.
> 
> Nice videos canebrake.


Thanks Brian .... Indeed, I’ll agree Mary runs a SUPER fast, super coordinated, super small Lab. Midge is young, talented, and has earned her first MACH points this year.

Since we moved, I have not had access to agility equipment and Spice is way out of practice. However, I hope to have a regulation course set up here within the next year or so... I plan to continue to compete with Spice, and her daughter out of Kicker.

Spice has run ONLY 2 AKC trials... both were 4 day weekends; She earned her NA & NAJ titles as well as 2 OA passes. I forget our placements ... but when we placed, they were 1sts and 2nds.... I think 1 3rd. She placed in almost every run ... BIG trial.... LOTS of BC’s. I remember feeling very good having a lab beat out so many BC’s in the 20” division. Spice is 19” and weighs 53 lbs at her heaviest. 

Here is a link to her NAJ title run. Handler error on the opening - I crowded the tunnel and we got 2nd due to an Off-Course but her time was fastest of all the dogs. 

http://www.completelyk9.com/JWWtitle.html


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## HeavenSent (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks Brian and Danielle  

Canebrake, your video from the Invitational brought tears to my eyes! It is a dream goal of mine to be there someday with Midge 

When I was thinking about adding another agility dog to the family, I was looking at shelties, mini aussies and the other smaller breeds - I did not want a large dog. Danielle (runnindawgz) got me thinking about Labs with her Spice. When Midge was born, Danielle thought of me because Midge was born TINY! Midge is currently measuring 21" and is about 44lbs. She is more than I ever could have dreamed of! She absolutely loves to work - Agility, Field,Obedience - whatever you want her to do! She is fast! She is Driven! She is very smart. She has a great temperament! And, she introduced me to this wonderful retriever sport  Now we are on the list for a puppy from Danielle at Blackfoot Kennels and I expect to add another Pocket Rocket to my family - primarily for field but, we will probably be running the Agility circuits as well 

To touch on your question about jumping etc. I think the “high end agility folk” with Labs would stay away from heavier boned, heavier weight Labs simply because of the stress the sport puts on joints and the overall dog. A Lab is not built to run like a Border Collie. Midge gets way more hight over a jump than a BC. Border collies appear to “slither” over contact obstacles where Labs stay taller. Midge tends to take jumps 5ft before, lands 5ft after, is super high and swings wide - we are constantly working on my handling to get her to turn tighter and jump more efficiently. She hits her weaves and just goes! If I give her room, she can make any entry! Speed wise, because of her wide turns, we come in an average of 5 seconds under the top placing BC’s in our hight category ( 20 inches) which puts us out of placing more often than not at this level - but that might improve as we get better. We are still well under SCT - in only two runs in Exc B, we earned 32 MACH Points! I wouldn’t trade this dog for anything!

Here are a couple of videos I have out there. There are a few ugly handler error spots in there but, keep in mind, we are still learning and growing as a team and have gotten into the higher levels quickly so we are having some growing pains  We are currently in AKC Excellent where you are forgiven nothing 

http://youtu.be/RGg0FhB24ts

http://youtu.be/dCvCXa8Y4JA


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## kmanning913 (Feb 5, 2010)

Nice girl! What is her breeding?

Kari Manning
MACH Morning Star's American Girl MXF (Emmy)
Morning Star's Flower Power AX OAJ NF (Lily)


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## canebrake (Oct 23, 2006)

Nice videos Danielle and Mary! Love those labs! You should come to lab nationals in st Louis (October at Purina farms). Wilson is like running a crazy ferrari on a grand prix course. Here is one the latest videos of the boy dog (21.5 inches and 47 lbs) Extremely technical course and he does it all...well almost  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ_EdTJOuCM

Martha & gang
MACH Canebrake Show Me The Money XF JH CGC
Canebrake The Cast Away AX AXJ NF CGC - the rookie


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## kims (Jan 9, 2010)

I have been doing Agility for over 12 years and have had two labradors that were in the top 10 In AKC Agility for numerous years. My current Chocolate girl is one of the fastest Labradors YPS and also attended the AKC Invitationals as one of the Top 5 , 2 years ago. She went HIT at the LRC National in Agility this year as well. She took some time off last year to whelp a litter of puppies.. but is now back in action and we hope to qualify for the next Invitational.

She just won the Excellent B Standard class yesterday ( 20) inches beating 95 other dogs.. including a very high number of talented Border Collies and Aussies. 

So , I am thinking I can speak to being somewhat of a High End agility fanatic, having had 3 different Labradors attend AKC Nationals multiple years , put 1 Mach on one dog and currently need just one more Double Q for MACH 4 with Ranger my Choc. girl. 

I have been fortunate to been able to find good structure, soundness working ability speed and intelligence with my "blends". Working Show lines combined with Field lines. 

My current girl is actually 3/4 working show lines and only 1/4 field.. but you would never know it. Yes she is small- jumps 20 inches but is about 50lbs. I have run Males in the 60-65lb range. When you start to get much larger than that the sport is hard on them. So much really depends on the pedigree and what is behind the dog. But the incredible soundness of the dogs I have been blessed with I believe is a result of being put together right for such a demanding sport. This little mixed Choc. girl is a VERY HI ROLLER!

Much like all dog sports.. the pedigree and structure are only part of the equation. How you build drive and love for the game is the other. Some dogs come with it naturally .. others you have to help a bit along. 

I love my Labradors and like others have posted, many of my friends have now gotten Border Collies for their next partners. I will always have a Labrador. I love the OFF switch. The ability to lay ringside and lay in the sun and turn it on like gang busters in the ring. 
Respectfully,

Kim Secter
MACH 3 The Captain's Frequent Flyer UD,JH,MXF
Lickety Split's Piper ( Pup in training)
Waiting at the Bridge MACH Webfoot's Wild West Express "Maverick" CDX, M.A.D.


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## kims (Jan 9, 2010)

Realized I didn't really answer your questions..
Differences in speed. ( Most Border Collies if running to their top potential.. will be faster than most Labradors.) They are smaller, lighter and built like birds. But.. many do not have the power a well built small Lab has. If you can find the ways to capitalize on your dogs strengths.. ie power and speed on the flats, quick acceleration speed.. you can sometimes make up for that.
Differences in Temperament: Here is where I feel Labradors have it over many BC's. Most female BC's that I know.. can be pretty snarky. Labradors not so much. I also don't really embrace some of the neurotic tendancys of the High Drive BC's. Would not want to live with some of my friends dogs.
Differences in jumping style. I think BC's and Labs equally can be good or bad jumpers and much of that will depend on their structure and the jumping training they have gotten. 
Drive and desire.. ( again I think they can be pretty equal on this) I have seen low drive BC's / Low drive Labs.. High drive BC's and High drive Labs. I do think that sometimes BC's get into trouble with their herding instincts and reactivity to movement. WE don't seem to have those issues in Labradors at least as much. Also Herding dogs like to flank.and that needs to be trained out for agility.... and Labs don't usually do that. 
Best regards.
Kim S.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2012)

windycanyon said:


> I can only answer on what I see around here. Most are lighter boned than the standard calls for -- very fast, but not necessarily well structured, so it'll be interesting to see how long they hold up. They CAN compete w/ the Border Collies timewise, but you have to realize that agility isn't all about speed either. Sometimes "Speed Kills" those lightning fast ones on the AKC courses here because there are all kinds of traps at the Excellent levels. I've definitely seen some "sharp" temperaments, but not w/ all.
> 
> The field labs are not as compact as I'd like to see (but then that's a personal gripe I have about many of my own dogs too!). OTOH, the longer backed lab seems to have more flexibility in the spine to make the tight turns and tend to have better movement out there.


Anne,

I can't remember at what level you have run agility events (or if you do), but with all due respect I have run at the most advanced level and I'm going to have to disagree with a few of your statements.

First of all, the not well structured argument just doesn't hold water. This is like beating a dead horse. We see field champions still running strong at 10 years old that would have been called structural wrecks but the breed folks continue to question whether dogs with poor x,y or z will hold up for long. Yes, they will unless of course there is something seriously wrong with them. But by saying they do not meet the breed standard of having certain angles here and there and a chest that is blah blah blah and a tail that is so and so just does not affect how long they will hold up. Period. 

Side note, how do those dogs that are considered structurally correct hold up? Great I bet! But what have they gone through to test their structure? Not a whole lot. 

Retrievers can certainly beat a border collie on a given day if they happen to have a great run but they are in no way, shape or form designed to do so. Herding dogs are designed to spin on a dime and maneuver in a completely different manner than our dogs. They can do things that are harmless to them but can be detrimental to our dogs as in tight turns. These are CCL blow out nightmares to retrievers but not to the herding breeds.

Longer backed dogs are not desirable at all on an agility course. You would want a shorter backed dog that did not have to "bend in half" to change course.

The sharpness you mention is not breed specific. Many agility people want their dogs so amped up they have no regard to what is going on around them. 

Anyway, just a few thoughts but the structurally correct thing is like nails on a chalkboard for me. The dogs that seem to hold up the longest are the ones have been tested at the highest levels. Those considered to have correct structure, well not so much.

Just my humble opinion of course. As always.


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## Kiersten Lloyd (Apr 16, 2012)

Hi All
I am just new to this forum. But I am not new to Labs or agility. I have had Field Labs and have run agility for 17yrs. I have had 8 labs from field lines. 2 males (90lbs and 70lbs) and 6 females all who,weighted between 59lbs and 45lbs. My goals in life have been to prove to the agility world that Labs are a great choice for agility. All my dogs have come from very successful field lines. All have had many FC s in their pedigree. I find that I have not had a bad temperament in the bunch. They have all been polite with other dogs, good w,people and great w,kids. I could take them anywhere and not worry about them being difficult to live with. As for structure everyone has had good structure. They may vary in rear end angulation and chest depth a little which did affect turning ability but over all the field Labs I have had have been very sound dogs. 
As for speed yep the BCs are a little faster. Zoom my now 10 yr old was usually equal to or no more than 2 sec behind the faster BC. As was previously said speed can kill. So Zoom won the 2008 AAC national championships (26in class) beating many Border Collies. She also took me to the 2009 FCI World Championships in Austria on the course I did not mess up and she ran clean she finished 18 of 89 dogs. Labs can be competitive and there are many out there just as fast as she is. Zoom is 22.5in tall and 55lbs she is tallish but lightly built. Yes I do pick puppies with smaller structure Longer backs are ok but I find a shorter back can turn better. But turning abili is also affected by rear end angulation. I find that Labs don't jump as efficiently as BCs do. I find that with most of my Labs I have to cue my dog to turn before they leave the ground rather than expect them to turn over the bar. BCs can turn over a bar much better. I found I could not walk a course with my BC running friends as my dog really did move differently. As for drive I think Labs have just as much drive as a BC but they can think at the same time. So frequently you see BCs who are so crazy that they either go crazy or do their own thing. They figure it out eventually but slower than a Lab will. I must admit that I prefer working with the females as they think better than the males. 

My friend Erin has referred to Zoom , she is Choppers litter mate and even at almost 10 yrs old won AACNationals last year running in16in Vet class. She has spondylitis so,I have dropped her jump height She ran one course 33 secs under time. Even at 10 she is beating the Border collies. I had a girl Kes who won Nationals twice as well,she was a more heavy chested dog but she gave every thing she had. She passed away at 12.5yrs. 

Right now I have Swift 5 yrs who is more stocky ( 55 lbs) and just over 21 in she has been 2nd in the 26in class at Regionals twice now jumping almost 5 in over her shoulder. She does not have Zooms drive but she is usually only a second or,two behind her. Then I have Furai. A Kicker Daughter out of a Chopper/ Zoom sister. She is tiny 20.5in tall and 45lbs she is not quite 3. She finished 6th at just over 2yrs last year in the large 22in class at Regionals this year. Pretty good for a baby. She can turn over a bar. She is a bendy little,thing who once she has her confidence will give those BCs a run for their money Then I have Kicks who is also a Kicker daughter out of Danielle Pellicci's Spice she is 15 weeks and was picked for her smaller compact size and that other sister and mother not to mention their at athletism and brilliance already I can see that she has the confidence and ability to think and th drive that she will right up there with her sister and aunt! (zoom is a distant relative). 
So do I think a small compact well bred field lab is competitive with the BC s and Aussies. Sure I do.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Thanks so much for all the responses.

Has been great fun watching all the youtubes.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Great videos. I'd like to see photos or videos of those Labs you folks are referring to as shorter backed/coupled though. I've not personally had any truly short coupled labs (square or w/in 1.1 ratio length to height) running really well. One boy who I bred is a MACH2 and is short coupled, but he's not lightning fast like Martha's or Kim's or others here. His other short coupled (closer to that square look), yet well balanced sister seriously lacked on turning ability and jumping style. Another sister along w/ several relatives closer to the 1.20 length to height ratio (not considered short coupled in the breed area anyhow!) are capable of *much* better speed and all have a great jumping styles. So that is what I base my observations on. I've run a couple at the Excellent level personally over the years, but to be honest, since breaking my back 12 yrs ago, I am not nearly flexible enough anymore... and I don't want to make Aleve that big of a part of my diet. I am personally sticking more w/ lower impact activities these days and try to farm out my girls for others to run when possible.


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## Bknightlabs (Apr 6, 2012)

I would send video urls for 2 Labs and Aussie, but because I am new to the forum, I have not posted enough to permit that.

Anne, you have probably seen my older girl run at Moses Lake but not the younger Lab.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Great videos. I'd like to see photos or videos of those Labs you folks are referring to as shorter backed/coupled though. I've not personally had any truly short coupled labs (square or w/in 1.1 ratio length to height) running really well. One boy who I bred is a MACH2 and is short coupled, but he's not lightning fast like Martha's or Kim's or others here. His other short coupled (closer to that square look), yet well balanced sister seriously lacked on turning ability and jumping style. Another sister along w/ several relatives closer to the 1.20 length to height ratio (not considered short coupled in the breed area anyhow!) are capable of *much* better speed and all have a great jumping styles. So that is what I base my observations on. I've run a couple at the Excellent level personally over the years, but to be honest, since breaking my back 12 yrs ago, I am not nearly flexible enough anymore... and I don't want to make Aleve that big of a part of my diet. I am personally sticking more w/ lower impact activities these days and try to farm out my girls for others to run when possible.


Interestingly when I observe working/herding and bench border collies their body shapes are very different. Of course I prefer the working type. 

I love working kelpies and border collies "doing their stuff".


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Bknightlabs said:


> I would send video urls for 2 Labs and Aussie, but because I am new to the forum, I have not posted enough to permit that.
> 
> Anne, you have probably seen my older girl run at Moses Lake but not the younger Lab.


You should be able post Youtube links w/o issue. Bknight--- what are your dogs' names?


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## Bknightlabs (Apr 6, 2012)

The two big Labs you might remember are Soot and Kenzie. The youngster is Dyna. The Aussie's name is Boo. When I tried to post the urls it said you have to have posted at least 5 times.

If you go to KSBDagility on youtube you will find recent entries for Dyna and Boo. Kenzie's last run and her fastest was in October, 2010 when she was nearly 11 1/2. Runs are listed with dogs name first.

Soot: 23.25" 70# MXP MJP5- jumped 20" 13 1/2 yo (retired)
Kenzie 22.0" 60# MACH ATCH - jumped 20" 13 (retired just before 12th birthday)
Dyna: 20.25" 47# OA AXJ XF - jumps 20" 3 1/2 yo
Boo: 18", 37#, ATCH MX MXJ XF - jumps 16" 6 yo

(ATCH) is the ASCA equivalent of MACH)

Betty Knight


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2012)

Aussie said:


> Interestingly when I observe working/herding and bench border collies their body shapes are very different. Of course I prefer the working type.


The split occurred when the AKC starting allowing Border Collies to be shown in conformation. The conformation crowd took "the bigger boned and hairier the better" path. Boy does that sound familiar. (No offense to those who have more moderate conformation bred retrievers.)


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Martha Blank runs FT dogs and is qualified again for the national also does agility with a lab. I believe out of one of Barb Kirby's trial dogs.

Personally I am not fast enough anymore to run a BC


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2012)

Steve Amrein said:


> Martha Blank runs FT dogs and is qualified again for the national also does agility with a lab. I believe out of one of Barb Kirby's trial dogs.
> 
> Personally I am not fast enough anymore to run a BC


Oh Steve, STFU. I'm KIDDING, PEOPLE! :lol::lol:

(If you don't understand my jest, you missed part of another thread.)


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> The split occurred when the AKC starting allowing Border Collies to be shown in conformation. The conformation crowd took "the bigger boned and hairier the better" path. Boy does that sound familiar. (No offense to those who have more moderate conformation bred retrievers.)


Where is the "like" button?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> The split occurred when the AKC starting allowing Border Collies to be shown in conformation. The conformation crowd took "the bigger boned and hairier the better" path. Boy does that sound familiar. (No offense to those who have more moderate conformation bred retrievers.)


Seems that way, doesn't it? So sad. I was at an IABCA show ~2 wks ago just wanting to hide initially w/ my field x show blends, but we did well despite seeing some SERIOUS breed flaws being rewarded. Sigh. I'll stick to moderate dogs that the judges even said were their first choices for working spots, thank you much... and though I won't ever do them justice in agility, so be it. We still have fun.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Dyna is your girl!  She's what I think it takes in a lab to beat the BCs... For the benefit of others: 

First trial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi15eQ7tvss
And at Moses Lake (bummer-- I wasn't there this year!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNy3x2GmcTo

I had one pup owner do well in Nov JWW there (Std needed a little work, lol... can you say too 'cited and a bit naughty???): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNy3x2GmcTo

She has a sis in NC who is doing very well in both obed and agility (already at Exc level)... if I could figure out how to post from Flipshare videos as that's what she uses. This pup is a bit lighter boned than the one above and has the potential to be SUPER fast. https://www.facebook.com/profile.ph...4284626&set=vb.100000037570725&type=2&theater

Let's see if this works...





Bknightlabs said:


> The two big Labs you might remember are Soot and Kenzie. The youngster is Dyna. The Aussie's name is Boo. When I tried to post the urls it said you have to have posted at least 5 times.
> 
> If you go to KSBDagility on youtube you will find recent entries for Dyna and Boo. Kenzie's last run and her fastest was in October, 2010 when she was nearly 11 1/2. Runs are listed with dogs name first.
> 
> ...


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## Bknightlabs (Apr 6, 2012)

Thanks for the help with getting the videos up. Dyna is a whole lot of dog and can occasionally beat the BCs and Belgian Mals. I am still learning.

The link for your young pup and owner brought up Dyna again but I think I know which one she is and yes, she can be a bit naughty. She is with some folks I connect with the Tri-cities. She has lots of attitude.

Facebook link says it is down but look forward to seeing that dog.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Bknightlabs said:


> Thanks for the help with getting the videos up. Dyna is a whole lot of dog and can occasionally beat the BCs and Belgian Mals. I am still learning.
> 
> The link for your young pup and owner brought up Dyna again but I think I know which one she is and yes, she can be a bit naughty. She is with some folks I connect with the Tri-cities. She has lots of attitude.
> 
> Facebook link says it is down but look forward to seeing that dog.


Yes, yes and yes-- I'm sure you have the right dog! :razz: I too have a full sister here, Envy, training for SH and UD and she will be stepping into agility class here again soon. Yet another sister (who is SAR certified) is in the class I'm currently taking w/ another girl (whose place Envy will take if/when she comes into season as expected). We all kind of roll our eyes with them. Very smart, but get very impatient at times with us.


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## Steve B. (Jul 20, 2004)

Another field bred Labrador earned a MACH over the weekend. MACH "Missy" and Dina B. earned that MACH title Friday at a agility trial in New York.

"Missy" is out of our girl "Raine" (HRCH Thunder Myst Monsoon, MH, WCX) and a CH Topform Edward, MH son. "Raine" is a Granddaughter of Lean Maxx and Cosmo.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Steve B. said:


> Another field bred Labrador earned a MACH over the weekend. MACH "Missy" and Dina B. earned that MACH title Friday at a agility trial in New York.
> 
> "Missy" is out of our girl "Raine" (HRCH Thunder Myst Monsoon, MH, WCX) and a CH Topform Edward, MH son. "Raine" is a Granddaughter of Lean Maxx and Cosmo.


I'd call that a very nice "blended" breeding.  Huge congrats!!!!


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## Dawn Roberts (Jul 1, 2015)

Thank you for this very informative thread. I have been searching for help in deciding how to trial and train my lab out of field champion lines. There are not many trialing labs where I am, despite how popular they are. He is a well structured, but small male, 61 pounds and 22 1/2 inches at 23 months. He picked up the extra 1/2 inch late, so he is learning the higher jump height just now. It slowed him initially, but he is quickly adapting. I am not new to labs, but new to agility. The teachers I have at home are bc handlers, and I suspect I am missing some critical elements. Like the mention earlier about the turn que before the jump. I have heard the unbelievers, labs don't belong in agility. Any dog the length of mine who can do a perfect swimmers turn off a Flyball box at full speed can certainly excel in agility. It helps to hear others say it too. Thank you Justin McGill for not turning me away when I told you what my dreams were for him.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Anyway, just a few thoughts but the structurally correct thing is like nails on a chalkboard for me. The dogs that seem to hold up the longest are the ones have been tested at the highest levels. Those considered to have correct structure, well not so much.


Not sure what you mean by "correct structure" but I infer from this that you believe Anne means "conformation ring" Labs? Just want to point out that they are not the only structurally correct Labs. As we (LRC) conduct more and more Conformation Certificate evaluations we are seeing a *lot* of [so-called] field bred Labs that are structurally sound. It IS possible to breed to the standard and have a Lab that is well-built, with proper angulation, who can perform for years without missing a beat. The dogs that are not, are running with their HEART and ignoring their pain.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

lucas said:


> Not sure what you mean by "correct structure" but I infer from this that you believe Anne means "conformation ring" Labs? Just want to point out that they are not the only structurally correct Labs. As we (LRC) conduct more and more Conformation Certificate evaluations we are seeing a *lot* of [so-called] field bred Labs that are structurally sound. It IS possible to breed to the standard and have a Lab that is well-built, with proper angulation, who can perform for years without missing a beat. The dogs that are not, are running with their HEART and ignoring their pain.


100% agree Marcia. I've bred to one of them (QAA2) who recently received a VERY high score on his CC. I'll stand by my comments of 3 yrs ago... lighter boned, smaller but structurally (and termperamentally-- is that a word?) sound is still ideal for labradors in agility. And they can win as Kim Sector, etc know. My boy in the one home is now 11.5 yrs old, MACH3, PACH etc titled and still running last I knew. I had him here hoping for a breeding in December (my girl who missed w/ a different boy didn't take again, unfortunately) and he was in wonderful condition still, no aches or pains that I could see at all. His sis here is the same way. Oh, and they have their dews removed too....so much for that theory that removing the dews make a dog break down faster.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The ones we see around here, are of the lighter boned, smaller, variety, perhaps a bit longer in the spine; compared to legs (seem to move effortlessly). I do know the issue we've seen are usually wrist injuries; not sure what type of structure might help in avoiding that, but it seems to be what most the labs I know competing in agility end up having problems with.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

I know nothing about agility trials, but I do have a very talented bitch in my dog's pedigree that seemed very talented at it. Could some one please decipher what some of these titles mean?

In agility, what is the most prestigious title?

*MACH VCD3 UD TDX 

*


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

http://agilitymach.hubpages.com/hub...es-What-do-the-Letters-After-a-Dogs-Name-Mean

I suppose MACH would be the most 'prestigious' of all their billions of titles? MACH = Master Agility CHampion. In spite of it being a 'champion' title, it is non-competitive (as in, dog does not have to beat all comers to win the points, as they do for FC and CH)


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

lucas said:


> http://agilitymach.hubpages.com/hub...es-What-do-the-Letters-After-a-Dogs-Name-Mean
> 
> I suppose MACH would be the most 'prestigious' of all their billions of titles? MACH = Master Agility CHampion. In spite of it being a 'champion' title, it is non-competitive (as in, dog does not have to beat all comers to win the points, as they do for FC and CH)


How rare is it for a lab female to have accomplished this?


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## Jeri (Feb 24, 2015)

What blows my mind is there has only been 1 Lab in history to achieve a MACH in agility and a CH in the show ring. He also achieved his MH.

CH MACH PROSPECT’S SLAM DUNK UD, RE, MH, MXP8, MJP6, PAX2 “KOBE”

http://www.citrushillcaninecenter.com/Citrus_Hill_Canine_Center/Kobe.html


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Peter Balzer said:


> How rare is it for a lab female to have accomplished this?


I wouldn't say it's rare, but it's a big deal for any dog to earn it. Here is a list of self-reporting MACH labs, the list isn't up to date anymore but gives you a pretty good idea. AKC is only one organization that offers agility. There are other venues that test different skills and have different champion titles, of course they aren't going to show up on AKC pedigrees.


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

I have a field bred lab who does agility and a field golden. If my husband (runs the lab) and I do our jobs right they can beat the border collies. We also have the #1 agility BC from 2015 in our area. Both our dogs are smokin fast. Quinn our lab does have a bar issue but she's my husbands 1st agility dog and he didn't correct that from the start. He just wanted to run no matter what. They both are growing as a team. 

I have seen many a lovely agility lab and there was a field lab who one the National Obedience Invitational twice and I think she one Crufts too. Or did really well. Field labs are just as good in other venues as they are in the field. 

I think it's fun when we run our dogs and oeoe come up and say "wow" didn't know retrievers could run like that.


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