# Waterfowl hunting with factory choke tubes??



## H.fairhurst

Not that we are the best shots in the world but after being pretty disappointed with our hit and miss ratio my duck hunting group and I did some patterning with our factory choke tubes. The group guns are (2) Benelli SBE 2's a Beretta semi auto and a Remington 870. The results were about the same with each gun tested with multiple different ammo manufacturers. The BB count at forty yards was terrible and not significantly better till tested at 25 yards. The question is... You that are avid waterfowl hunters, Do you hunt with after market specialty choke tubes?? If so what do you recommend?

Thanks, Heath


----------



## Gunssmoke3217

H.fairhurst said:


> Not that we are the best shots in the world but after being pretty disappointed with our hit and miss ratio my duck hunting group and I did some patterning with our factory choke tubes. The group guns are (2) Benelli SBE 2's a Beretta semi auto and a Remington 870. The results were about the same with each gun tested with multiple different ammo manufacturers. The BB count at forty yards was terrible and not significantly better till tested at 25 yards. The question is... You that are avid waterfowl hunters, Do you hunt with after market specialty choke tubes?? If so what do you recommend?
> 
> Thanks, Heath



I swear by patternmasters choke tube. You will need to find the best load that patterns out of your gun combined with your patternmaster. Expert steel 3 inch number 2's out of my mossberg 835 are fortunately the best pattern i have found. I love it because experst are dirt cheap. Keep in mind there is an extended range choke and a long range. dont quote me but I believe the extended is made more for 3inch loads and long is made for 3.5. you can run either load but they are designed for those specific loads. Also, when you start shooting with your patternmaster you will swear that you are a horrible shot. Your shot string is just be shorter and you have to compensate and lead a little differently.


----------



## Raymond Little

It's ext, long, and decoy. I shoot an ext in a SBE, its as close to a full choke as you can get. Started using it in 05 when 3.5" shells were $12.99 and only a dollar more than 3". Will add the decoy model this year for ducks only.


----------



## Brad B

I've been shooting the Browning after markets, Gold and Midas chokes. Certainly an improvement in all 3 of my guns. Buddy of mine is a Patternmaster dealer now so I'm about to try one of those. All reputable reports I've had on them locally are positive.


----------



## Scott Adams

I patterned my Briley IC Against the factory IC with lead 7.5 and steel 2. Briley proved a much better pattern


----------



## akareddog

Patternmaster is without a doubt worth ever penny.....you'll love it.


----------



## H.fairhurst

Anybody experience with the Carlson designed for Black Cloud? Cabela's offers a three count set,close, mid and long range for $100.00


----------



## tim bonnema

First. What choke tube did you use to pattern with? I have used factory tubes and when using BB have found Mod to be the best.


----------



## H.fairhurst

tim bonnema said:


> First. What choke tube did you use to pattern with? I have used factory tubes and when using BB have found Mod to be the best.


I used the factory modified. My pattern at 40 yards consisted of about 4 bbs in a pie plate. (terrible)


----------



## tim bonnema

Check out this link. http://www.chuckhawks.com/pattern_shotgun.htm

Your point of impact may be something different. It is not a rifle and will not hit exactly where you aim. Try a more open choke. If you are using black cloud shells they have a special wad that will not work with many aftermarket tubes.


----------



## H.fairhurst

tim bonnema said:


> Check out this link. http://www.chuckhawks.com/pattern_shotgun.htm
> 
> Your point of impact may be something different. It is not a rifle and will not hit exactly where you aim. Try a more open choke. If you are using black cloud shells they have a special wad that will not work with many aftermarket tubes.


Thanks for the info. I have tried several different loads and really was probably least impressed by the black cloud. Out of the factory choke. I think I'm going to get the patternmaster. I have read a ton of good reveiw about it.

Take care, and good hunting!


----------



## swampcollielover

I attended a class three weeks ago put on by the StateWildlife guys in Missouri. The class was on shot gunning for waterfowland reducing the number of wounded birds. After we went over the ballistics ofdifferent shot shells we went out to a gun patterning range and tested variousloads and chokes. 
Without going through all the details my Benelli Vinci,shooting at 40 yds. With a 3” #3 Winchester Drylok, 1 ¼oz., (1450 velocity) hadan average on 110 pellet hits (over 3 targets) in the traditional 30” circles,using an IC factory choke. That exceedsthe acceptable level of performance. Ialso patterned using an IC choke made by Briley and saw no significant change. They explained to us that shell velocity forduck hunting of 1400 was good, anything over that is not necessary (save yourshoulders). 
They also said any of the shells that have pellets thatare square, sharp edges, etc. are actually shot that was not yet finished inproduction. They also flare out morethan round shot (even if they have improved jacketing) it is all just saleshype. I shot some of these at patterns andwow they flunked the test at 40 yds. Don’twaste your money. Learned a lot andgot about 20 minutes of shooting coaching, was fun and my shooting on openingday was improved.


----------



## Brettttka

I shoot the Beretta a400 and shoot black cloud #2 in open fields and timber holes in the 3" Black Cloud. Does anyone know if the Carlson, Patternmaster, Kicks chokes for Black Cloud actually make a difference without buying all 3 and testing them(would be expensive with all 3 brands and couple boxes of shells).


----------



## sapitrucha

Scott Adams said:


> I patterned my Briley IC Against the factory IC with lead 7.5 and steel 2. Briley proved a much better pattern


Briley makes the best chokes I've used, but I stay with factory Beretta chokes..


----------



## road kill

Brettttka said:


> I shoot the Beretta a400 and shoot black cloud #2 in open fields and timber holes in the 3" Black Cloud. Does anyone know if the Carlson, Patternmaster, Kicks chokes for Black Cloud actually make a difference without buying all 3 and testing them(would be expensive with all 3 brands and couple boxes of shells).


The "Tempest" choke tube w/Black Cloud works pretty well.
It is NOT ported so the wadding doesn't get clogged.
It does give some "reach" if you will.


For decoy shooting I use the stock modified choke.


----------



## Brettttka

Got an email today from patternmaster that for veterans day they are running 10% off and free shipping with code VETERANS2013 if anyone is interested.


----------



## swampcollielover

Brettttka said:


> I shoot the Beretta a400 and shoot black cloud #2 in open fields and timber holes in the 3" Black Cloud. Does anyone know if the Carlson, Patternmaster, Kicks chokes for Black Cloud actually make a difference without buying all 3 and testing them(would be expensive with all 3 brands and couple boxes of shells).


After actually Patterning my Benelli Vinci 12ga using various steel loads I found at 40yds the Black Cloud to be the worst of the lot. The non-round pellets spread out like mad, even with the "special wad" they use. If you think about it, it makes since. Would you rather throw a round ball or one with a ridge on it? It is all sales hype, these pellets are actually just unfinished steel shot (the final rounding out was not done leaving the mold seams)....just good old American marketing to the masses....snake oil and all!


----------



## jacduck

Never did figure out the physics of Black Cloud but the spec that got in front of a load of deuces this morning gave up and died mid air on a medium long shot. With SBEII factory mod choke.

Never did figure out why I would spend a lot of money on the last gun I ever intend to buy and then chase around and buy an expensive after market gizmo. Why ain't those gizmo guys making firearms?


----------



## H.fairhurst

jacduck said:


> Never did figure out the physics of Black Cloud but the spec that got in front of a load of deuces this morning gave up and died mid air on a medium long shot. With SBEII factory mod choke.
> 
> Never did figure out why I would spend a lot of money on the last gun I ever intend to buy and then chase around and buy an expensive after market gizmo. Why ain't those gizmo guys making firearms?


That is exactly my thoughts... You buy a top of the line gun and then you have to buy after market chokes to get the thing shooting an acceptable pattern with steel shot. Then you have the whole steel shot issue where most of it in my opinion sucks, I just find it inefficient. And if you really want ammo that hits hard and performs well, you need to spend $30.00 + per box for the heavy shot bismuth, and tungsten which who can afford cases of that stuff every year. Not this guy!


----------



## swampcollielover

I always hunt over decoys, shots are never beyond 35yds, or I don't take it. I use Drylok # 3's, 3" Shell...they work very well for what I use them for...


----------



## tim bonnema

I also think that the black cloud would have the pellets with the rings spread out more but I also have found that unlike the round pellets the ones with the cutter ring do not have feathers on them thus getting better penetration. just my 2 cents.


----------



## Jim Danis

If you shoot black cloud ammo make sure you get the Patternmaster choke tube designed for it. Regular Patternmaster choke tubes are absolutely horrible with black cloud ammo. The reason why is the studs inside of the choke tube stop the wad from performing like it should. I shoot a SBEII and use a Terror choke with a .700 restriction for everything from dove to ducks and geese. This is a bit less than a full choke. It's a bit tight but patterns very well with a wide variety of loads. I liked it so much that I gave my son my SBEII and bought the Beretta A400 Extrema I also bought another Terror choke in the same constriction for it. Same results as with the SBEII. Great choke and keeps a very uniform pattern with a wide variety of loads.


----------



## Brad B

Since a buddy of mine is a dealer for them I picked up a patternmaster yesterday. Shooting it Thurs., we'll see if I can notice a difference.


----------



## Brettttka

Since some are not fans of black cloud and I know every gun can perform a little differently. What is the best shell and choke recommended for the A400 that you have found.


----------



## swampcollielover

You guys that shoot Black Cloud and other shotshells with something other than circular shot, regardless of all the hype on choke tubes and penetration....be sure to check your patterns at a range. I did this and was surprised to find out that Black Cloud scattered badly at 40yds, regardless of penetration....I not paying extra for it anymore. I did use a choke tube made for Black Cloud....


----------



## TroyFeeken

I find it somewhat comedic on what people spend money on. Over $20 to $25 a box for shells is just plain silly to me. When people ask about a recommended choke without talking about a specific load exactly including FPS, oz size, shot size, length of shell, etc, you're going to get different results, even from the exact same model of gun or choke as all of them are typically mass produced and their tolerances are far from high craftsmanship level. I personally have 2 chokes that I use throughout the year. 

In my Maxus, shooting trap, sporting clays, dove, early season geese, geese and ducks up until freeze, I use a Briely light modified extended choke and #2's or BB for decoying waterfowl. I shoot 1 1/4oz 3" loads of Federal Blue box as that particular load I've found to pattern the best for the price. Red box I can get a little better pattern but it's not worth the extra $50 a case in my eyes. I consistently kill birds over decoys with this configuration.

For longer shots and decoying snow geese in the spring or really late season winter geese, I'll use a custom choke I had turned for me by a local gunsmith that actually measure the barrel and cuts the restriction based off that and what you want to shoot with the choke. That choke comes from http://www.drakekiller.com His chokes are widely used by hunters up here wanting to add a little denser pattern at deeper distances and he does a lot of research and testing on patterning from different loads through his chokes. Even though it's custom, I've actually found it to be the same price or even less than the mass produced ones you find hanging on the shelves of your sporting good store.


----------



## CharlieC

H.fairhurst said:


> Anybody experience with the Carlson designed for Black Cloud? Cabela's offers a three count set,close, mid and long range for $100.00



I bought a Carlson light modified for my grandson's 20ga TriStar auto loader. I improved the pattern quite a bit. I wish I had of bought the deal with three in the package now.
Why not order from Carlson's, they are very willing to answer any questions you might have about the choke tubes. I ordered and thought it would be maybe a week for it to show up, but I had it in three days.


----------



## Brettttka

I have never payed over $20 a box for shells and I shoot black clouds. Dont care if they are a gimmic or not they seem to perform well for me was just wondering if anyone had shot the Beretta with 3" black cloud #2 and after market chokes and which performed the best. Thought this was a product review section and will give your buddy a chance. Dont know what you pay for Blue Box federals but they are only about $1 cheaper than the Black Clouds i shoot.


----------



## scothuffman

After many years of shooting steel, you really need to work out a good shell to gun/choke pattern. I have tested many shells through my gun and even change the shells due to the manufacturer changed the formula. Right now I shoot a Beretta A 390 for ducks and Kent #3 with an imp mod factory choke. This works well for me. I shoot Black Cloud BBB in 3 1/2 and a Beretta Extreme for geese with the imp mod. You will need to do some patterening.


----------



## TroyFeeken

Brettttka said:


> I have never payed over $20 a box for shells and I shoot black clouds. Dont care if they are a gimmic or not they seem to perform well for me was just wondering if anyone had shot the Beretta with 3" black cloud #2 and after market chokes and which performed the best. Thought this was a product review section and will give your buddy a chance. Dont know what you pay for Blue Box federals but they are only about $1 cheaper than the Black Clouds i shoot.


Where are you able to buy blackcloud for $11 a box? The only Blackcloud I've used were during their testing of the snow goose loads when some hunting buddies were given a couple of cases to field test for them.


----------



## Brettttka

TroyFeeken said:


> Where are you able to buy blackcloud for $11 a box? The only Blackcloud I've used were during their testing of the snow goose loads when some hunting buddies were given a couple of cases to field test for them.


No I am paying $179 a case for the black clouds. Wish I could find them for $11 a box. Blue box federals are $169 a case at the local gun shop where I get the black clouds.


----------



## TroyFeeken

Brettttka said:


> No I am paying $179 a case for the black clouds. Wish I could find them for $11 a box. Blue box federals are $169 a case at the local gun shop where I get the black clouds.


Rogers has blue box by the case for now $110 a case with free shipping. They were 10 less this summer.


----------



## Golddogs

H.fairhurst said:


> I used the factory modified. My pattern at 40 yards consisted of about 4 bbs in a pie plate. (terrible)


Too tight. Benni's are a bit tighter to start and IC would be a better choice, esp if you are using Blackcloud. My factory Browning Inv + pattern very well with all the Federal loads if I choke correctly.


----------



## rsfavor

http://drakekiller.com/

I've been using this for 4-5 years. It delivers as advertised and they do all the patterning for you!


----------



## J. Walker

H.fairhurst said:


> I used the factory modified. My pattern at 40 yards consisted of about 4 bbs in a pie plate. (terrible)


If you were shooting steel, IC chokes will typical give a tighter, more consistent pattern than Mod. I've patterned mine with factory chokes and with steel, the difference was considerable in the patterns. Anyone who thinks Black Cloud or something similar is necessary should look up 21 time world sporting clays champion, George Digweed, on Youtube. Shooting steel at the last world championship, he hit 198 of 200 sporting clays targets including 150 in a row. Look up the video of him shooting pigeons.


----------



## txcountryboy1986

I swear by Kicks...but i have shot factory chokes and done alright with them before


----------



## Jim Danis

Brettttka said:


> Since some are not fans of black cloud and I know every gun can perform a little differently. What is the best shell and choke recommended for the A400 that you have found.


I am shooting an A400 Extrema and am using a Terror choke with a .700 constriction. I'm shooting Heavy Metal 3" 1 1/4oz #3's. I've been shooting this load for 3 years now and absolutely love it. With this choke/load combination it is a bit tight at 30 yards but the pattern is very uniform and easily 95% at 30 yards. I used to shoot Hevishot and it just became too expensive. Since changing to Heavy Metal I haven't noticed an increase in cripples and my patterns are just as tight as with Hevishot.


----------



## Mark Teahan

Remington 11-87, Federal speed shok 3" , #2's sure work awesome with a factory i/c extended tube.

No way Im paying for the hype.
I don't shoot at passing birds, and try to keep all my shots well under 40 yards.


----------



## willidru

Brettttka said:


> Since some are not fans of black cloud and I know every gun can perform a little differently. What is the best shell and choke recommended for the A400 that you have found.


I shoot A400 use 3" #3 heavy metal works great 1.25 oz at 1500 fps. I used to shoot Winchester Drylock also a good shell just a little slower 1450 fps.


----------

