# Walk up in AKC Senior Test



## hillsidegoldens (Mar 28, 2009)

What are the rules for a walk up in AKC Senior Test? Can you tell your dog to sit? Is the walk up part of either double or is it done by itself? Any input is welcome? 
I will be running tests in a couple of weeks and would like to train for the walk up.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Yes you can say sit. I don't believe it's required to be part of a double, but have never seen it otherwise.

When I train for it, I teach it by walking at heel, give whistle sit, then toss a bird. I move to tossing the bird, then whistle. Then I toss the bird and expect sit with no whistle. When that is going well, I set up three wingers in a rows bout 30 yards apart, and do three walk ups, one after the other. It's a good way to get repetition. I then work on incorporating a walk up as part of a multiple, just as I would teach a double. 

There are specific rules regarding how the walk up is presented. Maximum distance, no attention getting device etc. worth reading the rules on that.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

You can say "sit" or blow your whistle, but not both. The judges will tell you when it is ok--as the bird is thrown, when it is at the top of the arc, etc. 

Meredith


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Have always had the judges give the OK at the top of the arc.


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## hillsidegoldens (Mar 28, 2009)

captainjack said:


> I set up three wingers in a rows bout 30 yards apart, and do three walk ups, one after the other.
> 
> Glen
> do you let dog retrieve the throws from the wingers as singles, and do you hide the wingers. I will check what I down loaded for rules on walk up but I didn't see it before. I went thru pretty fast.
> Thanks Bob


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

See page 26


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## splashdash (Aug 1, 2007)

What captainjack said - "worth reading the rules on that" If you are going to run tests, read the rule book! If you can't bring yourself to buy one from the AKC they have all of their rule books in PDF at the AKC web site for free. Lots of confused or disappointed people saying " My friend so-and so said...." Attending a judges/ handlers seminar can be very helpful also IMO.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

hillsidegoldens said:


> captainjack said:
> 
> 
> > I set up three wingers in a rows bout 30 yards apart, and do three walk ups, one after the other.
> ...


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## hillsidegoldens (Mar 28, 2009)

I downloaded it yesterday and tried to read some of it did not see question I asked plan on printing and reading from paper.
Thanks all for input. Any more info appreciated.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I see it as a stand alone (not part of a double) fairly often in SH tests. Some times the judges really want to test the memory bird on the double a little more than the walk up is able to in many cases.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

If you have the PDF, simple thing to do is use your search function, Control + F, will bring up a drop down menu, then you can type in whatever term you want to search for, such as "break", "intimidation", etc. Granted, many words are very numerous and sometimes there is a spelling nuance, like walkup vs walk up, but in general, doing a search is often a quick way to find what you want without going through the whole thing over and over.

Page 26. 

Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior and Master hunting
tests, a walk up is used to test a dog’s steadiness. The
birds represent a surprise situation therefore gunning
stations must be well concealed, utilizing natural cover
when possible so that only the bird may be seen when launched. Birds shall be presented at a distance ranging
from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting
devices utilized.
As the first bird is thrown in a walk up situation, the
handler may give either a verbal or whistle command to
steady the dog once the bird is in the air. Judges shall
tell handlers in advance of the start of judging when it is
appropriate to give the steadying commend or whistle.
There shall be no walk up test situations in Junior
level tests.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Section 18 Page 26 as previously noted


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Does the "no attention getting devices used" part include a shot? It would seem appropriate to hear a shot prior to a bird flying through the air, LOL, but I've heard this debated at handler's meetings before. I guess this question keeps popping up since occasionally in a Master stake they will add a shot to a mark that involves a wide swing or for some other reason could be hard to see on it's own, thus rendering the shot "an attention getting" device.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

A shot is not an attention getting device, per AKC Rep. Bird has to die somehow.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

"Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior and Master hunting
tests, *a walk up is used to test a dog’s steadiness.* The
birds represent a surprise situation therefore gunning
stations must be well concealed, utilizing natural cover
when possible so that only the bird may be seen when launched. Birds shall be presented at a distance ranging
from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting
devices utilized.
As the first bird is thrown in a walk up situation, the
handler may give either a verbal or whistle command to
steady the dog once the bird is in the air. Judges shall
tell handlers in advance of the start of judging when it is
appropriate to give the steadying commend or whistle.
There shall be no walk up test situations in Junior
level tests."

Because the walk up is used to test steadiness, and marks are used to test marking ability and memory, why do judges feel the need to combine the walk up with marks?

As a judge (I judge ft only), I want the dogs to see the marks in the air and as they fall. I feel combing the walk up with a multiple puts the dog in a situation where they many times won't see one of the marks.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Because the walk up is used to test steadiness, and marks are used to test marking ability and memory, why do judges feel the need to combine the walk up with marks?


simple answer is Time management


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

captainjack said:


> "Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior and Master hunting
> tests, *a walk up is used to test a dog’s steadiness.* The
> birds represent a surprise situation therefore gunning
> stations must be well concealed, utilizing natural cover
> ...



Funny you should say that. I ran in a test in Lavergne, TN about 2 months ago where the first bird(on the left) was a walk up, center bird 2nd was a flyer and last bird was > 180 degrees from the walk up bird station. Jody Ware was running a dog and when the walk up bird was launched, he sat as commanded. The flyer came out and he turned his head but remained sitting, and on the last bird, the dog was literally facing in the opposite direction...never saw it. Jody has the dog pick up the flyer first, then the walk up. He lines the dog up in the direction of AOF of the long bird and the dog lined it. Was an amazing performance by trainer and dog.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> Funny you should say that. I ran in a test in Lavergne, TN about 2 months ago where the first bird(on the left) was a walk up, center bird 2nd was a flyer and last bird was > 180 degrees from the walk up bird station. Jody Ware was running a dog and when the walk up bird was launched, he sat as commanded. The flyer came out and he turned his head but remained sitting, and on the last bird, the dog was literally facing in the opposite direction...never saw it. Jody has the dog pick up the flyer first, then the walk up. He lines the dog up in the direction of AOF of the long bird and the dog lined it. Was an amazing performance by trainer and dog.


It was an amazing performance, but not an exhibition of marking and memory which is what our test is supposed to evaluate.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> simple answer is Time management


Very easy to throw a walk up as a single, then turn and run a double. This is the way HRC tests are run.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

captainjack said:


> Very easy to throw a walk up as a single, then turn and run a double. This is the way HRC tests are run.


A much better approach in my opinion.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> Funny you should say that. I ran in a test in Lavergne, TN about 2 months ago where the first bird(on the left) was a walk up, center bird 2nd was a flyer and last bird was > 180 degrees from the walk up bird station. Jody Ware was running a dog and when the walk up bird was launched, he sat as commanded. The flyer came out and he turned his head but remained sitting, and on the last bird, the dog was literally facing in the opposite direction...never saw it. Jody has the dog pick up the flyer first, then the walk up. He lines the dog up in the direction of AOF of the long bird and the dog lined it. Was an amazing performance by trainer and dog.


Good lining dogs can pull that off. Fun to watch that's for sure.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

captainjack said:


> It was an amazing performance, but not an exhibition of marking and memory which is what our test is supposed to evaluate.


I agree wholeheartedly. I wasn't a fan of the test setup for that very reason.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

bamajeff said:


> Funny you should say that. I ran in a test in Lavergne, TN about 2 months ago where the first bird(on the left) was a walk up, center bird 2nd was a flyer and last bird was > 180 degrees from the walk up bird station. J


Surely that was a MH test not a SH test, correct?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

captainjack said:


> Very easy to throw a walk up as a single, then turn and run a double. This is the way HRC tests are run.


Around here, many judges to that in the SH for the very reasons you state. The walkup just isn't all that great as part of a good marking SH test, so they separate them.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

DoubleHaul said:


> Surely that was a MH test not a SH test, correct?


Yes, it was a master test


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Jody is a great trainer and handler so this is in no way a reflection on him. He is certainly a pro that I respect. The dog in this example did an excellent job of lining. Probably not any marking involved. Although I wasn't there the dog missed seeing the mark. This involved ignoring the handler as he stayed fixated on the flyer. The dog then ignored the duck call (which seems to precede most marks after the walkup). Then ignored the shot at the top of the arc. Most missed marks are the result of the dog not paying attention or becoming fixated on one gun station. Really a stretch to blame that on judges.


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## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

The Senior test I apprenticed earlier this year was set up so that the walk-up was not part of the marking scenario. It was separate, as you were making a longer walk from the holding blind to the line for the marks, you had a walk-up go off.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Thomas D said:


> A shot is not an attention getting device, per AKC Rep. Bird has to die somehow.


Thanks, Tom. Another situation where the rulebook is less than clear, yet obviously they can't spell out every little thing. This is in line with what I was thinking, but I'm glad to hear that an AKC rep has taken a stand on it.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Jody is a great trainer and handler so this is in no way a reflection on him. He is certainly a pro that I respect. The dog in this example did an excellent job of lining. Probably not any marking involved. Although I wasn't there the dog missed seeing the mark. This involved ignoring the handler as he stayed fixated on the flyer. The dog then ignored the duck call (which seems to precede most marks after the walkup). Then ignored the shot at the top of the arc. Most missed marks are the result of the dog not paying attention or becoming fixated on one gun station. Really a stretch to blame that on judges.


Quit belly aching. Nobody cares who judged what or when and no one blamed a judge. 

The point is that, as judges, we can meet the requirements of the test AND set up the tests where we don't create situations that encourage or cause dogs to not see the marks. No legitimate reason whatsoever to throw a walk up as a bird in the marking test. The Walk up is used to test steadiness.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Quit belly aching. Nobody cares who judged what or when and no one blamed a judge.
> 
> The point is that, as judges, we can meet the requirements of the test AND set up the tests where we don't create situations that encourage or cause dogs to not see the marks. No legitimate reason whatsoever to throw a walk up as a bird in the marking test. The Walk up is used to test steadiness.


Objects in motion tend to stay in motion ..Objects that are stationary tend to stay stationary ....Most handlers fear walk up honors ....Just jump shooting birds...Steve S


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

captainjack said:


> Quit belly aching. Nobody cares who judged what or when and no one blamed a judge.
> 
> The point is that, as judges, we can meet the requirements of the test AND set up the tests where we don't create situations that encourage or cause dogs to not see the marks. No legitimate reason whatsoever to throw a walk up as a bird in the marking test. The Walk up is used to test steadiness.


Glen,
Not really bellyaching. Owned several dog that were very "animated" at the line. It was not at all uncommon for me to have to line out a mark to avoid a handle. Was not the fault of the setup. All blame rested on the owner/handler.

I have judged very little but have thrown the walkup both as part of the marking series and separate in Senior. Both worked very well. The grounds dictated what setup worked best. A steady dog working at heel with the handler sees the marks thrown with the walkup.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

hillsidegoldens said:


> What are the rules for a walk up in AKC Senior Test? Can you tell your dog to sit? Is the walk up part of either double or is it done by itself? Any input is welcome?
> I will be running tests in a couple of weeks and would like to train for the walk up.


In addition to what others have said, when asked I have always been told I can speak softly to the dog (heel) during the walk-up. Pretty sure I always forgot to do that or even say SIT when the birds go off but I could have if I wanted.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

I find line manners easy to teach on walkups if I take the time to teach silent autosit..
keeps the dog focused on the marks and I don't worry about breaking or creeping,
pup sits because he thinks the act of sitting will trigger a live flyer reward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1cPpWXeFnc


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

captainjack said:


> "Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior and Master hunting
> tests, *a walk up is used to test a dog’s steadiness.* The
> birds represent a surprise situation therefore gunning
> stations must be well concealed, utilizing natural cover
> ...


Exactly. How can you judge "marking" on a bird the dog didn't see. 
More importantly why have the rules so it is possible for a dog to not see a "mark" through no fault of the dog or handler?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I think part of the reason to combine is that judges want to get a triple and other requirements out of the way in the first series. So, you can get your triple, walk up, honor all out of the way Saturday morning. Then if you run into a time crunch or weather issues it leaves fewer requirements to worry about on Sunday. Not saying it's right or wrong, just an observation.
I would imagine 95% of the MH tests I have ran have had a land triple (one of which was a walk up), and double land blind in first series.


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

I would not go as far to say the walk-up is solely responsible for a dog not seeing the remaining marks in a test where it's used as part of a multiple marking test. Line manners have more to do with it than anything else. The other chief cause for dogs not seeing all marks is fixation with the flyer station. Does that mean we should just shoot a flyer as a single because it may affect a dog's ability to see all marks?

A walk-up as part of a multiple marking scenario can also be effective from a time management standpoint. Will save 15-30 seconds per dog versus the same test where the handler comes to the line and sits the dog.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Let's just set the flyer up at 30 yards, shoot it first, the throw a go bird at maximum allowable distance 120 degrees to one side. After all, dogs should have good line manners and move with the handler and not get fixated on the flyer.


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

Great idea, but why stop at 120 degrees?. Thanks for the suggestion, have to try that the next time I judge. Dog to the line!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Exactly. How can you judge "marking" on a bird the dog didn't see.
> More importantly why have the rules so it is possible for a dog to not see a "mark" through no fault of the dog or handler?


This makes entirely to much sense....

I wonder how many are taking notes...

I wonder if the plan is to trick instead of test


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> This makes entirely to much sense....
> 
> I wonder how many are taking notes...
> 
> I wonder if the plan is to trick instead of test


I'm not talking about the judge that Mark knows (or any particular judge for that matter), but I think some judges just set up a test that incorporates the required elements but may not be thinking about the natural and trained abilities that they are supposed to be evaluating as they lay it out.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Exactly. How can you judge "marking" on a bird the dog didn't see.
> More importantly why have the rules so it is possible for a dog to not see a "mark" through no fault of the dog or handler?


Dogs can fool you when it comes to seeing marks...Just because we ( or judge) don't see a dog turn it's head or body doesn't mean the dog didn't see it....I have set in the chair many times and had my doubts that a dog saw the fall and have it come in and lock right on the fall area..Peripheral vision is a requirement when I go get my eyes tested for a drivers license ...I wonder why ? Steve S


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Let's just set the flyer up at 30 yards, shoot it first, the throw a go bird at maximum allowable distance 120 degrees to one side. After all, dogs should have good line manners and move with the handler and not get fixated on the flyer.


I'd much rather throw a well placed short dead bird within the distance allowed for walk-ups, difficult to wind and in challenging cover, followed up with a flyer at a considerably longer distance and thrown angle back with the wind using an attention getter, also landing in cover. Included angle could be anywhere from 60 to 120 degrees. Place the blind outside, deep of and cross-wind of the flyer station with good separation. ENOUGH TO ACCOMMODATE 2 CAST REFUSALS SO WE CAN JUDGE TEAMWORK OBJECTIVELY. 

Also, use terrain features and natural vegetation to hide the throwing stations and blind planter. 

This is not rocket science.....-Paul


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Steve said "Dogs can fool you when it comes to seeing marks...Just because we ( or judge) don't see a dog turn it's head or body doesn't mean the dog didn't see it...."

I agree but also would add that there is an audio component too and I believe dogs use it often particularly on shorter or water falls. 

I have asked my dogs several times about that but they just don't answer.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

jacduck said:


> I agree but also would add that there is an audio component too and I believe dogs use it often particularly on shorter or water falls.
> 
> I have asked my dogs several times about that but they just don't answer.




I have had ducks fall behind the blind with a big splash and the dog has the bird back to the blind before I can get out to help find it...don't under estimate the great abilities of the dogs .....Steve S PS: they just will not tell us their secrets...


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Don't forget to train for the "walk-out" Basically you run everything and then as your leaving a bird goes off. Easy way to get the requirement, and a bunch of people don't train on it. Ran one in my last SH test, last bird makes it interesting to try and get the dog off the line under control, either that or the dog misses seeing the bird as there's no locator call just BANG. Short single mark no problem ...right?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

"Marking is of PRIMARY importance"

So, sit the dog down.. Throw 3 visible marks for the dog that have factors that make the mark hard to get to,but easy to find,,then as a judge sit back,and evaluate if the dog MARKED the bird or not... This is what the RULES dictate is primarily important..

Then set up and run Blinds to evaluate Master "Control"....

Why the urge to make the standard more than what it is?

Why throw marks that YOU feel the dog SHOULD HAVE seen, in YOUR OPINION...
Why not throw marks that YOU have done everything in your power to MAKE SURE the dog has every chance to SEE them..

A dog can Not mark what it cant see... If you throw marks they can not see,, You may be Judigng something,, but it aint MARKING..

Again,,, what is "Primarily " Important?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> "Marking is of PRIMARY importance"
> 
> 
> A dog can Not mark what it cant see... If you throw marks they can not see,, You may be Judigng something,, but it aint MARKING..
> ...



I agree you judge marks the dogs see and then you judge something else if the dog doesn't remember ,didn't see ( even if it was a duck call shot and then throw the bird ), things happen sometimes..dogs are not robots that get it right every tine...judges judge ,handler handles ,dogs do what dogs do....Steve S


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## Mollet - Labs (Aug 4, 2006)

Don't waist your time on Senior tests. Teach your dog at a senior hunt test to drive hard and hunt. Keep working on steady and walk ups in a controlled training environment. Then you'll have something.


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## obxdog (Aug 21, 2004)

Hunting Tests must simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a "true hunting situation". So whats the purpose of a walk-up in a "true hunting situation". If you are a duck hunter, more than once you and your dog are walking to a blind your buddy's are already at, or you are walking back from picking up a bird, when ducks or geese come into the decoys at the blind. So what do you do? You stop, sit the dog, and watch the action. Unless your buddies are bad shots, in a normal hunting situation it becomes more than just a steadiness test. So IMHO a walk-up with marks would simulate a true hunting situation where steadiness is an integral part of "a dog you want to hunt with".


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

obxdog said:


> Hunting Tests must simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a "true hunting situation". So whats the purpose of a walk-up in a "true hunting situation". If you are a duck hunter, more than once you and your dog are walking to a blind your buddy's are already at, or you are walking back from picking up a bird, when ducks or geese come into the decoys at the blind. So what do you do? You stop, sit the dog, and watch the action. Unless your buddies are bad shots, in a normal hunting situation it becomes more than just a steadiness test. So IMHO a walk-up with marks would simulate a true hunting situation where steadiness is an integral part of "a dog you want to hunt with".


You aren't in a real hunting situation and, in this circumstance, the rules tell you what the purpose of the walk up is. 

As a judge you set up tests to showcase, not just any abilities, but the abilities that the rules dictate. And as gooser pointed out, primary among those abilities is marking.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

The walk-up is to simulate upland hunting where you flush a bird and your dog must be steady to shot.

Meredith


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## Mollet - Labs (Aug 4, 2006)

*Yeah - but it's misplaced in the progression of hunt test requirements.*



mwk56 said:


> The walk-up is to simulate upland hunting where you flush a bird and your dog must be steady to shot.
> 
> Meredith


A senior hunt test to me should be about passing and awarding Senior hunt test certificate of accomplishment to a dog that can "hunt" as the name states- "Hunt test" Hunting is about finding and hunting birds. It's about keen developed instincts that are nurtured and brought forth. All this focus on walk up and steady should be in place at the Master level. Too much emphasis is on steady and walk up in the senior level. I vote to see senior hunt test dogs primary importance is to find and hunt birds without handler intervention. I would like to see dogs that are keen hunters and understand their purpose is to look for and seek and find game in various situations. Senior hunt tests to me is a place where dogs should be learning what intense hunting and focus to finding birds is all about. Sure you can introduce steadiness at this slot, but to require a walk up and honor with it's shot near the dog as a primary requirement over hunting and finding birds with desire and drive ???? Come on hun leaders and judges.


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## jefish1 (Dec 11, 2012)

Can you walk up with the dog on either side of you, My dog is two sided? Heels on both sides.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

jefish1 said:


> Can you walk up with the dog on either side of you, My dog is two sided? Heels on both sides.


Yes. The judge doesn't care which side the dog is on.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

obxdog said:


> Hunting Tests must simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a "true hunting situation". So whats the purpose of a walk-up in a "true hunting situation". If you are a duck hunter, more than once you and your dog are walking to a blind your buddy's are already at, or you are walking back from picking up a bird, when ducks or geese come into the decoys at the blind. So what do you do? You stop, sit the dog, and watch the action. Unless your buddies are bad shots, in a normal hunting situation it becomes more than just a steadiness test. So IMHO a walk-up with marks would simulate a true hunting situation where steadiness is an integral part of "a dog you want to hunt with".


In a "TRUE HUNTING SITUATION" birds don't hit the ground without a noise of some sort.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

A walk up that mimics a true hunting senario:

You are jump shooting a small creek or an Irrigation canal.... You have snuck up on the creek bank or ditch bank,and spotted a smal group of mallards father down the creek...

You sneek back off the creek bank,, heel your dog with you and quietly manuver your way to the spot the ducks are sitting... They can not see your approach because they are down in the creek below the high bank...When you get to where you marked them,, you work your way up to the bank with the dog at heel.

You get to the bank edge,and the ducks jump into flight.... You manage to drop 3! Two in the ditch,floating,,and 1 on the opposite side... All birds are down within a range of 15 to 45 yrds.. Very tight falls...

You pick them up in any order... All birds are stone cold dead..

Dog see every fall cleanly! he isnt required to perform circus tricks and spin 175 degrees to mark a silent flush with a shot at distances of 100 yrds or more... he is required to have walked obediently at heel.. He was required to be steady to flush and shot...

The birds all flushed without calls or noise before they took flight... They were VERY close... the dog was able to easily SEE all 3 falls...

I know its realistic, because its the way I hunt many times....

Gooser


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> A walk up that mimics a true hunting senario:
> 
> You are jump shooting a small creek or an Irrigation canal.... You have snuck up on the creek bank or ditch bank,and spotted a smal group of mallards father down the creek...
> 
> ...


Agreed Gooser; except the walk up by rule should be between 35 & 45 yards.
Another stupid aspect of the rule IMHO. Why handcuff the judges with that clause. The test grounds may not be amenable to put a bird safely or strategically in such a small tight requirement.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

mjh345 said:


> Agreed Gooser; except the walk up by rule should be between 35 & 45 yards.
> Another stupid aspect of the rule IMHO. Why handcuff the judges with that clause. The test grounds may not be amenable to put a bird safely or strategically in such a small tight requirement.


The clause it probably designed with that specific distance in mind to reign in judges. If you don't put a specific # of yards in the rule book you might have an extremely tempting 12-15 yard bird or not so tempting 60-70 yard bird. While the distance may seem arbitrary, in this instance it's probably doing more good than harm.

Overall, I think the walk-up has its place in a SH test and that variety is the spice of life. Some judges handle it different than others. If their test doesn't make you pucker a little bit (read this as challenge), why are you there?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Agreed Gooser; except the walk up by rule should be between 35 & 45 yards.
> Another stupid aspect of the rule IMHO. Why handcuff the judges with that clause. The test grounds may not be amenable to put a bird safely or strategically in such a small tight requirement.


My comment where you highlighted in red was with respect to the other marks included in the walk up... The walk up bird may well be at 35 Yrds,, but walk ups I have seen that included a second mark (Senior double) or a third mark,( Master triple) those marks thrown after the walk up, had silly large angle swings to the next bird..(cant talk to the dog) thrown at longer distances,,Master test didnt give an attention getting call to a VERY large angle swing to a mark following the walk up bird.. Only a shot, AFTER the bird was thrown,and at the top of arc..

I dont understand why folks feel they have to make these tests more that what the standard requires... It seems SOME feel they need to take their tests to the extreme to evaluate if a dog is a Senor or Master level dog,,that meets the written standard..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So you set up a test with an in your face walk up bird,, but then require the dog to swing to a 175 degree second mark,,where you decide to NOT give a attention getting call there either,,and only shoot when the bird is at the top of the arc of a throw...

"Marking is of Primary Importance" if you really dont give a dog a chance to SEE,, you may be judging something,, but it aint the dogs ability to mark a fall, which is what is suposed to be the most important aspect of traits we want to see in a retriever..

Just set a test up where the dog SEES the marks,, then judge if the dog marked the fall.... I think thats pretty simple...nn

Judge controll on the blinds,,and your done.... no tricks...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Someone said to me one day when discussing this stuff.. They said;

"It doesnt say anything in the rules that the dog must see the mark"!!!

Seriously!!!!

Gooser


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Peter Balzer said:


> The clause it probably designed with that specific distance in mind to reign in judges. If you don't put a specific # of yards in the rule book you might have an extremely tempting 12-15 yard bird or not so tempting 60-70 yard bird. While the distance may seem arbitrary, in this instance it's probably doing more good than harm.
> 
> Overall, I think the walk-up has its place in a SH test and that variety is the spice of life. Some judges handle it different than others. If their test doesn't make you pucker a little bit (read this as challenge), why are you there?


If my memory is correct the reason for the yardage addition was because the first bird down was always the long bird and therefore the dogs had to look past short /shorter gun stations ...This caused the dogs to miss ( not see ) the walk up bird because they were focused on the short gun stations...Can't judge a mark if the dog doesn't see it ...Now the problem is the short bird is the flyer and some dogs will not come off it to look at the longer mark / marks ..fixed one problem and created another...Also , flyers were reserved for the last bird down in case something went wrong with the other stations..Now you have so called out of order flyers....The issue of the big swing can be eliminated with the flyer being shot out of the test instead of into...problems problems problems....Steve S


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## Tom Lehr (Sep 11, 2008)

My two cents.....let the young Senior Dogs who just learned to mark a double sit down and mark two birds....no need to add anymore elements. 
Master dogs are another story....they need to be able to handle short birds and come off the short gun to look out at the long marks. I would rarely if ever as a judge not put a bird call for the longer marks. As for the dog not seeing the walk-up...it's the first bird down so most times You are walking your dog right at the gun station


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## splashdash (Aug 1, 2007)

Like so many threads, this one seems to have lost its way. The original poster wanted to know what the rules were and what might be required for the walk up element in an AKC senior test. If you would like to see rule changes made in senior there is already an established procedure to do this. I don't understand those posters who feel steadiness and walk ups are too difficult for a senior dog. It's a game, and it's the AKC's game, if you don't want to play the game, well, then don't enter and continue hunting with your breaking dog.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

The senior test we ran a month ago had the walk up separate from the land double. We had a land double with the blind and honor. Next was a walk up that was combined with a water blind. Those were followed with the water double. Dog brought all 7 birds back. It made for a fun test.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

splashdash said:


> Like so many threads, this one seems to have lost its way. The original poster wanted to know what the rules were and what might be required for the walk up element in an AKC senior test. If you would like to see rule changes made in senior there is already an established procedure to do this. I don't understand those posters who feel steadiness and walk ups are too difficult for a senior dog. It's a game, and it's the AKC's game, if you don't want to play the game, well, then don't enter and continue hunting with your breaking dog.



No rule change required,, just think what you excect out of a Senior level dog,,and the fact your Primary Focus,, should be whether or not a Dog MARKED the fall of a bird... Just be fair about it,,and allow the the dog a CHANCE,,a GOOD chance to see the second bird of the walk up double...


I feel the SAME WAY for Master level dogs ( walk up required in Master also),, but that just my opinion ,,just like the Senior opinion.... MANY dis agree with it... Thats fine by me.. thats what makes us all different...


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> No rule change required,, just think what you excect out of a Senior level dog,,and the fact your Primary Focus,, should be whether or not a Dog MARKED the fall of a bird... Just be fair about it,,and allow the the dog a CHANCE,,a GOOD chance to see the second bird of the walk up double...
> 
> 
> I feel the SAME WAY for Master level dogs ( walk up required in Master also),, but that just my opinion ,,just like the Senior opinion.... MANY dis agree with it... Thats fine by me.. thats what makes us all different...




I see from your signature line that you have 2 SH titled dogs. That tells me that you have participated in at least 8 Senior tests. Of the tests you have run, how many times have your dogs failed to see the 2nd mark of a walk up test due to the construction of the test? - Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> I see from your signature line that you have 2 SH titled dogs. That tells me that you have participated in at least 8 Senior tests. Of the tests you have run, how many times have your dogs failed to see the 2nd mark of a walk up test due to the construction of the test? - Paul


several (not all) had big swings between birds.... because of the "Walk Up" and the requirement your dog be walking "With" you,and not necessarily at heel,, the dog was a bit out of position with me when the walk up bird was throw.... the dogs then heard the shot of the second bird (usually the flyer) and got what I would describe as a quick glimps of the fall.. Sort of a flash mark. not a good focused look..

My experience has been,, they ran to the gun (not necessaritly where the bird fell),,and started a hunt, that I would describe as "BIG" ,,and the stumbled or winded the bird..
(I can show Video of what I am specifically talking about, but dont want to hear the under the bus comments.)

When we train,, why do we take such measures, to have the dog sit still, focus on a throw,focus on where it falls,and give the dog a reasonable amount of time to process that picture, before we throw the next "mark"?

IMHO,, its to give the dog a chance to SEE the bird,and gauge where it fell in relation to landmarks or a spot... We try to make effort for that to happen on the remaining "marks"... Only then can we decide or "Judge" if the dog "Marked""

I dont like it when I hear folks say, when they have taken extreme measure to Hide the Guns, give a hard to see throw against a bad background,, then state "the dog SHOULD have seen that" 

For senior dogs especially,, I think the spirit of the game is to show a visible set of double marks, both land and water using some terrain and factors,, and the Judge if the dog goes directly to where the bird fell, and establish a hunt there...

Then use a land blind and a water blind to allow the dog and handler demonstrate Senior level control..

When a walk up is required, in SENIOR.. IMHO,, it should be a separate mark thrown, before you run a double, land or water.. a separate entity.. to test steadiness,, NOT MEMORY..

JMHO...

P.S... those dogs you asked about in my signature line.... I would also point out they held HRCH titles,,and 1 of them needs 1 more pass to attain her Master Title... Some,, (not all) of ALL those tests Senior, Finished and master,,, have left me scratching my head wondering how the he!! we passed,, and MANY left me asking what the heck they were judging... Again,, all this is just my Opinion......


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Post # 56 describes what I would consider a fair test for a master dog with a triple mark that Included the walk up..

The dog comes walking up to the line, birds "jump" up,,and fall in a pretty tight pattern... No big swings involved when the dog MAY be out of position a bit from the handler.... remember,,,, you can NOT talk to the dog as the marks fall..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I guess it really comes down to is how you judge if a dog "Marked" the fall of the bird.. i think the rules are very clear... if I think back at tests I have run,, I think there were several dogs in many tests that didnt display what the rules dictate as to what constitutes a dog showing it "marked" the bird... "marking is of PRIMARY"importance" But those dogs (including mine) passed..

And I will say,, I think it was because the test, didnt really give a dog a good chance to "SEE" .... Guns hidden, poor, quick, throws. Big swings,, bad backgrounds ect... Then people making the comment... " dog should have seen that",, when it becomes very clear many (Good dogs) didnt..


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

The OP stated/asked _"I will be running tests in a couple of weeks and would like to train for the *Walk Up*."_

Pounce is preparing to run her first test - AKC Senior and we did this "walk-up" training a few days ago.....NOT wearing an e-collar. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZht8W9AefU


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> several (not all) had big swings between birds.... because of the "Walk Up" and the requirement your dog be walking "With" you,and not necessarily at heel,, the dog was a bit out of position with me when the walk up bird was throw.... the dogs then heard the shot of the second bird (usually the flyer) and got what I would describe as a quick glimps of the fall.. Sort of a flash mark. not a good focused look.._ *How is that the fault of the test design? Your dog got loose and got too far in front of you. Also, it would seem that the answer to my question would be none of them.*_
> 
> My experience has been,, they ran to the gun (not necessaritly where the bird fell),,and started a hunt, that I would describe as "BIG" ,,and the stumbled or winded the bird..
> (I can show Video of what I am specifically talking about, but dont want to hear the under the bus comments.)
> ...


I am really tired of all the griping about tests and judges. Especially when I know how seriously I and the people I have judged with take their responsibilities to put on a fair, challenging test that is within the regulations and apply the standard in a fair manner. If you want to run the walk-up as a separate test there is a venue (that I also judge) which does just that. Test your dog there. -Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

paul young said:


> I am really tired of all the griping about tests and judges. Especially when I know how seriously I and the people I have judged with take their responsibilities to put on a fair, challenging test that is within the regulations and apply the standard in a fair manner. If you want to run the walk-up as a separate test there is a venue (that I also judge) which does just that. Test your dog there. -Paul


Or you can also do it separately in AKC if you judge that.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

_several (not all) had__* big swings *__between birds.... because of the "Walk Up" and the requirement your dog be walking "With" you,and not necessarily at heel,, the dog was a bit out of position with me when the walk up bird was throw.... the dogs then heard the shot of the second bird (usually the flyer) and got what I would describe as a quick glimps of the fall.. Sort of a flash mark. not a good focused look..__ *How is that the fault of the test design? Your dog got loose and got too far in front of you. Also, it would seem that the answer to my question would be none of them
*

You asked me a question...I responded knowing full well you drifted a royal coachman over my head to try and bit me for an answer... I took your bait,, you cherry picked my resonse,,and had the Gaul to answer for me,ingnoring what I said... TYPICAL!!!!

We were talking about a SENIOR test! You ignored what I think is a terrible thing to do at Senior level,,and that is those big red words in red stating a BIG SWING....

You also picked up my comment about my dog being a "BIT" out of position and carried it a ways down your path and assumed she was "LOOSE!!

The SWING to the next bird was over 160 degrees... she needed eyes in the back of her head to have a chance to "SEE" the mark. She did turn on the shot, saw a GLIMPS of the fall,, but,, IMHO,, if you truely believe "Marking is of PRIMARY importance" in SENIOR level especially,, you give a dog a fair chance to SEE the mark..

I hold judges in high regards. I appreciate the time they give. As well as the time "others" give... I am not griping about the tests.. I just have a hard time understanding how I passed when it was VERY clear MY dog didnt meet the expectations of what the rules state definewhat attributes define when a dog marks a fall.. I think some of the judges added interesting situations to tests that many feel make them more fun to run.... But when dogs show big hunts, dont necessaritly go directly to AOF and establish a Hunt there (Didnt mark) they judge their "Interesting " Tses accordingly,,and hand out ribbons that dogs that MAY have not deserved themmm... I have a few of those... _


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Current dog has run 18 hunt tests at different levels (Senior, Finished,,and Master) She has failed 2 of them.Both Master.... I appreciate the Judges,and the time they took for us.... I just dis agree with their decisions with regards to my dog, that they met the standard on some of the tests,,and passed....... I think the TEST had something to do with it,,and they Judged accordingly.... and tried to be fair..... Nothing wrong with that,,,,,But for me personally,, I am not proud of SOME of the ribbons..


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm climbing out of the pig pen now. It's my own fault for climbing in. Carry on, folks.....-Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So, people that simply dont agree with you are "pigs".... Typical! Arrogance..

We both have opinions we are entitled to.... really no reason to name call or or display an air of arrogance..

respectfully,,, Gooser


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

While a separate walkup is nice, it can be tough on time management with a 40-50 dog entry, lack of help or adequate grounds. I am not a great fan of the walkup for several reasons. Mainly, it rarely makes sense and is poorly designed. Walking toward a big old blind and having a bird come out is a joke unless it I truly hidden. If you are doing a double or triple with a walkup, you absolutely must place the birds so the dog CAN mark them. The dog has to have a chance to see all of the birds.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

The first walk-up I ever ran with my Cody dog went this way; I heel Cody through some trees to an acre size opening. As we reach the opening the judge signals for the birds (triple) to go down, first bird about 30 yards to the right, Cody breaks and is about ten yards from the bird when the second gun shoots and throws, Cody breaks left for this bird back across the opening to the left. He almost get's there when the flyer goes off about 100 yards up the middle, so Cody breaks long and I yell sit. 

I heel him back to the line and one of the judges tells me I'm only out because I yelled sit.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> While a separate walkup is nice, it can be tough on time management with a 40-50 dog entry, lack of help or adequate grounds. I am not a great fan of the walkup for several reasons. Mainly, it rarely makes sense and is poorly designed. Walking toward a big old blind and having a bird come out is a joke unless it I truly hidden. If you are doing a double or triple with a walkup, you absolutely must place the birds so the dog CAN mark them. The dog has to have a chance to see all of the birds.


Perfect!!

Why is this so hard for some to understand,without getting their feelings hurt?

As far as time..



You come out of a holding blind on a relatively longer walk to the line . The judges meet you at a point. you continue to walk to the line,and a bird comes out at 35 yrds. your dog retrieves it. You then continue to the line and run a double on land or water with your Senior dog.... How much more time does that take? If dogs break,, it might actually save time..
If the double marks are thrown so dogs SEE them,, it might save time,, if you consider quick small hunts.

Respectfully 

Gooser


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> The first walk-up I ever ran with my Cody dog went this way; I heel Cody through some trees to an acre size opening. As we reach the opening the judge signals for the birds (triple) to go down, first bird about 30 yards to the right, Cody breaks and is about ten yards from the bird when the second gun shoots and throws, Cody breaks left for this bird back across the opening to the left. He almost get's there when the flyer goes off about 100 yards up the middle, so Cody breaks long and I yell sit.
> 
> I heel him back to the line and one of the judges tells me I'm only out because I yelled sit.


Ha. Great story. Made me laugh..Dogs will be dogs..


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

paul young said:


> I am really tired of all the griping about tests and judges. Especially when I know how seriously I and the people I have judged with take their responsibilities to put on a fair, challenging test that is within the regulations and apply the standard in a fair manner. If you want to run the walk-up as a separate test there is a venue (that I also judge) which does just that. Test your dog there. -Paul


I appreciate the time and effort that those that judge give back to our sport. However, I don't appreciate judges that either don't know the rules or don't care. Some simply make up their own and call them "rules". I will continue to gripe about illegal tests.

John


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

John Gassner said:


> I appreciate the time and effort that those that judge give back to our sport. However, I don't appreciate judges that either don't know the rules or don't care. Some simply make up their own and call them "rules". I will continue to gripe about illegal tests.
> 
> John


Legal, illegal, good or bad, I will continue to gripe about tests. I feel it is my duty and the judges would feel bad if someone didn't care enough to gripe about their tests


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

My favorite Judge...


View attachment 28291


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

If it's an illegal test why aren't more people going to the committee and getting it changed.


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