# Alllll this talk about silver,



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I do NOT approve of silvers and how they came about but i wonder with everyone saying should hunt test judges allow them to run dogs etc etc. how many Pro's do you know or think would say no to training one and losing that money? or would say no to a client that wants to run in a hunt test because they dont want to handle one at a test?


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

I have turned two away, as a trainer. If i handled for people, there is no way that I would have one on my truck at a test either. A weimeraner -yes-(not that Im a fan) but not a mix breed that someone claims to be a labrador just because AKC will register it as such.
Am curious if any other trainers on here will respond to this and what their answer is.


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

What's the difference in training a silver vs a half chessie half lab, half pointer half lab, half golden half lab? We still get paid to train the dog in front of us regardless. Dog either does the work or it doesn't.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

codyspringer said:


> What's the difference in training a silver vs a half chessie half lab, half pointer half lab, half golden half lab? We still get paid to train the dog in front of us regardless. Dog either does the work or it doesn't.


I believe it is heritage in what we believe in to forward our breed...
I hope you understand that...


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

Lol pros aren't breeding silvers. They are simply doing the job they are being paid for.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

codyspringer said:


> Lol pros aren't breeding silvers. They are simply doing the job they are being paid for.



And your point? You are not making sense or are you a troll?


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

Not the pros fault is all I'm saying. We just train the dogs in front of us.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

codyspringer said:


> Not the pros fault is all I'm saying. We just train the dogs in front of us.


Al right...Despite our ways...It puts meat on the table? Right????


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

but if you in your mind feel that silvers are bad or not true to the breed would you take one and run it in a hunt test knowing how you feel but run it anyway because it has an akc # and you are getting paid.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Trevor Toberny said:


> but if you in your mind feel that silvers are bad or not true to the breed would you take one and run it in a hunt test knowing how you feel but run it anyway because it has an akc # and you are getting paid.


Dog on the line. 

I don't feel...I think.


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

If the dog can do the work and it has a reg number prob so.


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

As pros we run and pass a lot of dogs we would rather not run.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

codyspringer said:


> As pros we run and pass a lot of dogs we would rather not run.


Makes sense to me.


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

We don't just get to run the one's we want to lol. That would be to easy.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

codyspringer said:


> We don't just get to run the one's we want to lol. That would be to easy.


OK... but what did you do to help those lurking?


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm not understanding I don't guess.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

codyspringer said:


> I'm not understanding I don't guess.



Then...I guess I don't understand as well to you.


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## codyspringer (Aug 9, 2009)

Lol not sure who your referring to as lurking and where.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

codyspringer said:


> Lol not sure who your referring to as lurking and where.


LOL back at you....I will sleep good tonight.,,knowing that there are those you will know the standard and money is not the deciding factor.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

I'm going to side with Cody on this one. Pros train mixed breeds all the time. They also train non-traditional retrieving breeds to be gundogs. Many on here, including the janitor, have non gundog breeds that do retriever work. If the check clears who gives a crap if the dog has polka dots. I have trained two as gundogs at my kennel, neither have run tests. 

Oh and BJ, might want to pull your head out. Cody is a well respected pro not a troll.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Tony Marshall said:


> I'm going to side with Cody on this one. Pros train mixed breeds all the time. They also train non-traditional retrieving breeds to be gundogs. Many on here, including the janitor, have non gundog breeds that do retriever work. If the check clears who gives a crap if the dog has polka dots. I have trained two as gundogs at my kennel, neither have run tests.
> 
> Oh and BJ, might want to pull your head out. Cody is a well respected pro not a troll.


OK......


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Your PMs are full....
We are dealing with a public forum and I could give a rat's ass who you are...
Understand that I have been in this business for some time and I don't see any benefit on what you said. 
But then again...I am retired.


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## Casey A (May 31, 2011)

I guess as long as the trainer and the owner are on the same page about what the owner expects out of a basic program and based on an evaluation of the dog the trainer is up front about what he thinks the dog may be capable of. The pro trainer I occasionally work with has a silver in for training now (or he just sent him back after the 3 month contract was up) and after the first week he called the owner and said that he should come back and pick him up. Long story short, the owner kept him with the pro and after 2 months on the bench he finally reached for the bumper when told "fetch"... all the while the trainer was honest in letting him know that the light just isn't coming on, and that the dog has ZERO interest in anything related to training, including clipped pigeons. and most "fun" bumpers end n a slow chase, quick sniff and then finding something more interesting to do.. The owner still wanted him in training. Finally, at the end of the 3 months he was finally off the bench and able to perform a simple 30 yard (maybe) single retrieve where the dog would go out and put on a huge hunt before stumbling upon the bird. The trainer was always upfront and honest throughout the entire process, and the expectation level that the owner was given was never anything but 100% honest . The one positive about the dog was that he wasn't ever weary of gunfire, haha. As a pro trainer, my guess is that's the only thing you could do for a client and his dog.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

codyspringer said:


> What's the difference in training a silver vs a half chessie half lab, half pointer half lab, half golden half lab? We still get paid to train the dog in front of us regardless. Dog either does the work or it doesn't.



Because those mixes you quote aren't registered as purebreds.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I personally would have a problem with having my dogs on the same truck as a silver. I don't hate the dogs, I don't hate any dogs (except mine when they blow me off on a blind), and I can appreciate anyone wanting a well-trained dog, regardless of what it is. But I do dislike the scam behind the registering of them, and that's what I won't want to support. Hopefully, my trainers don't intentionally take one in and I don't have to make a tough decision myself. I'm not going to crucify anyone who is taking clients to make a living. But, I can choose who I am going to spend my money with, I have at least one dog on a truck year round, pretty much, and if there is another client I find too offensive to be around, I don't have to pay for the privilege of being annoyed beyond my personal tolerance. I would hope that trainers who have established clients that object to silvers on principal, would take those clients into consideration. On the other hand, how far do trainers bend to keep established clients happy without breaking themselves? I hope I don't have to find out. Because I really really like mine.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Nor do I believe it is on the clubs or judges to make the decision on whether to allow a silver to run. It is a breed club/AKC registration issue, NOT something to put on field venues. Only judges/venue that can legitimately make that call would be the bench ring because they have the wherewithal within the rules to do so, when they see the color outside the standard. Besides, if the pipedream of having them be their own breed ever came to fruition, they'd likely be considered an eligible retriever breed for field venues. In which case, I'd have no problem with them being on a pro truck either. ;-)


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I admittedly took two in for the same owner just for OB training. One was silver one was "charcoal" they called him. I sent the silver home pretty quick, wasn't smart enough to get out of her own way, no drive, nothing. The charcoal one was ok and progressed nicely. Owners asked me to put a JH tilte on him. I did without even thinking about the outcome. He went 4 for 4 and got his JH and I sent him home. Now the owners are breeding him to the silver and making a killing. I have had many talks with them and sent articles about what they are doing but I get nowhere. They love their dogs and think they are purebred not matter what they are told. I have decided I would not take another one in.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Trevor Toberny said:


> I do NOT approve of silvers and how they came about but i wonder with everyone saying should hunt test judges allow them to run dogs etc etc. ?


 I DO believe this was explained very well in a previous thread; HT Judges DO NOT have the authority to dis-allow a dog from running said test. 

thank you

continue !!!!!!


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Seems to me, speaking from the periphery, training, or perhaps to a greater degree, running these dogs isn't the problem. BREEDING them is the problem. Training as a hunting dog would seem to pose no ethical question. I am sure that many trainers have worked with all sorts of dogs. Since garnering awards might lend an air of legitimacy and increase the value of offspring, I can see where training to compete in tests or trials would introduce some ethical questions, but as long as the clubs allow them to compete...?

The manager at one of the best known quail camps in this area (and we are KNOWN for quail hunting in this area) has a "silver". Our "Quail Coalition" banquet is this coming Sat., and I know that one of the auction items that was being sought was a "silver lab" as we auctioned one a couple of years ago and it brought big bucks. I don't approve, but was out voted. This all needs to be taken care of at the breed club level. Perhaps, now that it is possible, all dogs should be genetically tested as a prerequisite for registration. That would weed out various genetic diseases along with the dilute gene. 

HPL


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

final flight, re read my comment. i didnt say should they be allowed, i said with everyone saying should they be allowed. on the other post i agreed with ed when he said its not the judges place to let them run or not. i dont think they should be able to run but nothing says they cant so therfore they have to be let run.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I have taken one in for OB, and I would take one in for gundog training if the had the drive, YOU WILL NEVER see me walk to the line with one. I make money by training dogs, even if they are cross bred. I am working with a 1/2 weim 1/2 lab right now. She was adopted from the local lab mill when the guy finally got sent to prison. What do you think the next generation was gonna be?


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Trevor Toberny said:


> final flight, re read my comment. i didnt say should they be allowed, i said with everyone saying should they be allowed. on the other post i agreed with ed when he said its not the judges place to let them run or not. i dont think they should be able to run but nothing says they cant so therfore they have to be let run.


THEN STOP bringing us judges into this debate !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

I've had three in the kennel to date. One for Started Gundog training, and the other two for Obedience. I'm admittedly not proud of the fact I had them in for training, and I most certainly wouldn't put them on the truck. Just my .02.


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

This keeps bringing me back to the little league World Series years ago. Coach started the bearded kid, he had a Birth certificate!!!!


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## Patrick Barnes (Jan 13, 2011)

I by no means am a professional trainer. That being said, I don't think I would have a problem training one for OB or gun dog work. However I would never run one for a client due to the reasoning of what happened with Dave Burton.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

AGAIN final flight re read my post. it was to trainers NOT judges.


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

It all comes down to what's wrong in this Country, Money trumps Morals bottom line. It's a kick in the B???S to the people trying to do right things.


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

Just as it is not the judges call to decide if these dogs should be ran in a contest, it is not the responsibility of the handler/trainer to judge whose dog is worthy of training. We must realize, it is the registries fault that we have this problem and no one can correct it besides the registries. With that being said, we have never trained a silver just as we have never trained a Boykin, a standard poodle, etc. We prefer to stay with and train the traditional lab. We don't judge others who are trying to make a living though


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

championretrievers said:


> Just as it is not the judges call to decide if these dogs should be ran in a contest, it is not the responsibility of the handler/trainer to judge whose dog is worthy of training. We must realize, it is the registries fault that we have this problem and no one can correct it besides the registries. With that being said, we have never trained a silver just as we have never trained a Boykin, a standard poodle, etc. We prefer to stay with and train the traditional lab. We don't judge others who are trying to make a living though


championretrievers is spot on in my opinion. It boils down to the registry. Now then, if a silver Lab with blue ticks picks up the chickens better than any other dog in the trial.....well... does it win???


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

johngoehl said:


> championretrievers is spot on in my opinion. It boils down to the registry. Now then, if a silver Lab with blue ticks picks up the chickens better than any other dog in the trial.....well... does it win???


IMO...no...
But then again greed always trumps everything.
You don't believe, then please look around.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Two things.... why shouldn't it be on clubs and judges to dq them? All hell broke loose over a silver getting third in a class of 2. We field people bitch about show people ruin g the breed but one silver gets a ribbon and all hell breaks loose in their world.... silvers get a ribbon pretty frequently in comparison at HTs.... just a thought.

Second, I am a chiropractor. If I have a patient come in that I suspect is trying to commit fraud, or is greatly exaggerating their symptoms. I get them out of my office as soon as I have documentation enough to justify refusing care.... why be in the business of helping people commit fraud by running them in HT?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Show judges judge the breed standard, and dilute is a disqualification. Show judges are required to judge that. 

Hunt test judges have no such requirement. We're supposed to judge the performance and nothing else. Until the AKC and/or UKC tells us otherwise (which I wish they would), we can't DQ a dog for being a color that isn't acceptable.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Show judges judge the breed standard, and dilute is a disqualification. Show judges are required to judge that.
> 
> Hunt test judges have no such requirement. We're supposed to judge the performance and nothing else. Until the AKC and/or UKC tells us otherwise (which I wish they would), we can't DQ a dog for being a color that isn't acceptable.


We're working on it.
How common is the ash color in Chessies? Any plans to do 'anything' about that one? Just curious.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The ash color in Chessies is not common. It is allowed but not preferred, so is not a DQ. This is from the ACC website regarding colors in the breed:


"Three basic colors are generally seen in the breed: Brown which includes all shades from a light cocoa (a silvered brown) to a deep bittersweet chocolate color; sedge which varies from a reddish yellow through a bright red to chestnut shades; deadgrass which takes in all shades of deadgrass, varying from a faded tan to a dull straw color. Historic records show that some of the deadgrass shades can be very light, almost white in appearance, while darker deadgrass colors can include diluted shades of brown called ash, that appear as either gray or taupe. _These_ _ash/taupe/gray shades are not commonly seen and are not preferred._ Eye color for these diluted shades, as with all coat colors, must be of yellowish or amber color. The difference between sedge and deadgrass is that the deadgrass shades contain no significant amount of red, while the sedge shades do have red. Coat and texture also play a factor in the perception of color."

I had one ash colored dog pass through my kennels, not of my bloodlines. She was here to be trained and sold.


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## doverstreet (May 23, 2013)

I have a question. If hunt test judges start disqualifying dogs that do not meet standard when does it stop? Color, markings, height, weight, etc. I think there are lots of dogs run every weekend that are outside the height and weight. When do we install scales and tape measures after the last holding blind? I am against silvers 100% but if the dog is registered and the owner/handler paid the entry fees, dog to line!!!!!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

doverstreet said:


> I have a question. If hunt test judges start disqualifying dogs that do not meet standard when does it stop? Color, markings, height, weight, etc. I think there are lots of dogs run every weekend that are outside the height and weight. When do we install scales and tape measures after the last holding blind? I am against silvers 100% but if the dog is registered and the owner/handler paid the entry fees, dog to line!!!!!


Exactly. And while some of us may not like it and consider it fraud or lying or whatever, to register silvers as chocolate, the AKC does not, and that's all that counts. They are AKC registered as Labrador and thus eligible to run HT/FT. This is field, not show. Doesn't matter if the dog is within the breed standard conformation-wise, that's another venue to judge. There are plenty of black Labs that don't look purebred, for example. I've had a few myself. Do not put that onus on FT/HT judges or committees. It doesn't belong there.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

With all this genetic testing available, you can supposedly even get the breeds that make up your mixed breed dog, according to some of the websites. 
Then why not do DNA testing and i see if there is any non-lab genes there?? Is silver only due to breeding with weims or was it a fluke occurrence that someone capitalized one??? And now other are trying to duplicate by cross breeding?? I really do not know, but seems it should be test-able??


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

NateB said:


> With all this genetic testing available, you can supposedly even get the breeds that make up your mixed breed dog, according to some of the websites.
> Then why not do DNA testing and i see if there is any non-lab genes there?? Is silver only due to breeding with weims or was it a fluke occurrence that someone capitalized one??? And now other are trying to duplicate by cross breeding?? I really do not know, but seems it should be test-able??


The crossbreeding was done on purpose in the early-mid 80's, and then they inbred to get it going. There could be more than 10 generations already, and even doing that mixed breed testing, it would not be enough evidence to turn over the putting Silver into the Chocolate category. Bill Speck told me they would need the DNA of the Weim, or as he put it, dig up the bones of that old Weim.


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## Pinetree (Feb 14, 2006)

As a field trialer I like smart and good looking labs black,yellow.chocolate, not silver. Let's stop this generation. They have other problems as well.
Bruce Hall


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Those breed ID tests are pretty much a joke. You might send in an example from a well-bred FC-AFC Labrador, and get results like "boxer/border collie springer spaniel mix". I've yet to see one that is even close to accurate.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Those breed ID tests are pretty much a joke. You might send in an example from a well-bred FC-AFC Labrador, and get results like "boxer/border collie springer spaniel mix". I've yet to see one that is even close to accurate.


That is not surprising, people will pay for many things that are irrelevant.
Only real answer is for the Lab Club to make the Silver color a disqualification, then wouldn't AKC have to follow?. We all know AKC will take just about anyone's money for any dog, more dogs registered is more money for them. I tell people an AKC number is like a SSN, does not mean quality. After all criminals have SSNs too, right?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

The problem with all this rhetoric is that it frequently spills over into the real world. Some clueless wannabe picks a dog cause Uncle Joe says this is the "best". As the wannabe finishes reading Water Dog, they learn about the world of field trials & hunt tests. So they dig further & find a local training day. The silver wonder dog makes his appearance & I bet every one of you can predict the results. After enduring snide remarks, ridicule and possibly failure, the no longer wannabe goes home. Never to return.

Please try to differentiate between breeders & owners. At one point all of us were clueless!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I don't know what can be done to stop it, other than using the genetic test for the dilute gene and requiring dogs be clear of the dilute gene as a condition of registration.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

NateB said:


> That is not surprising, people will pay for many things that are irrelevant.
> Only real answer is for the Lab Club to make the Silver color a disqualification, then wouldn't AKC have to follow?. We all know AKC will take just about anyone's money for any dog, more dogs registered is more money for them. I tell people an AKC number is like a SSN, does not mean quality. After all criminals have SSNs too, right?


NateB,

Silver *is* a disqualification. The following is from the Labrador Standard approved by the LRC.

_*Color
*The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. 

_AKC, in their infinite wisdom, determined silver is a lighter shade of chocolate. LRC can't get them to change their minds, so no, AKC doesn't have to follow! But they Should!!!

Swack


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

My gut is telling me that the shade of chocolate, in their minds, would be the same as a shade in yellow.
Just saying...


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## klevans0077 (Jun 7, 2014)

I absolutely abhor the idea of silvers. That said, the AKC is allowing them and never asked my opinion. I hope something can be done about it, but it's not looking like it. As has been said in this thread several times, greed trumps all, and with the rising popularity of these dogs, it's not likely that the AKC is going to quit taking the money of silver lab owners. So, it's been my stance, as in this post, to first state my objection to the registration of these dogs, but then I turn around and try to educate the owners and breeders I come in contact with. If they are here to stay, the best thing I can do is try to educate and convince the breeders of these dogs that the only way to legitimize them aside from the AKC is to title them and health test them. The more of them I see, the more I realize that nothing is being done to stop this trend at the level of the Kennel Clubs registering these dogs. I find it my humble duty to then educate buyers, owners, handlers and breeders and to continue bettering the breed the best I can as an individual, and collectively with my club. So, I guess I'm saying, "dog to the line!" At least until something can be officially done about it. But I still don't like other!


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## Whitettopstang87 (Aug 11, 2015)

I'll be running intermediate hunt tests with my evil 9 month old "silver" in the spring. He's gonna destroy the test, hope some of ya'll haters are there to watch.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Whitettopstang87 said:


> I'll be running intermediate hunt tests with my evil 9 month old "silver" in the spring. He's gonna destroy the test, hope some of ya'll haters are there to watch.


You know what... I hear what you're saying. You take that dog and go as far as you can go with him. You love him , you train him, and you compete/test him... if it works out, it's not the color that made him good. It's you and the team work between the two of you.

When a dog comes to the line, on some level, it doesn't matter how they look. Some folks think that a skinny tail that curls over the dog's back is a crime against labrador-dom. We think a dog that has a squat body and runs like a pig is just as bad. So appearances matter less than performance.

Go for it. But breeding it is sort of another deal. You might, indeed hammer that test and even get an advanced title at some point. When you start to breed, however, you have to think a little further down the line, the generational effect you're having on the breed. At that point, think a little more about the color and the associated traits that may come along with it.

Good luck to the both of you!


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

So let's say the wonder silver dog passes a MH or even earns his MH. Would breeding that dog contribute anything to the breed? Is there a dearth of labradors capable of earning the MH title? Seriously, like the above poster said, rock on with your dog but please don't let it breed.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

If you want to try to do something about it, sign the petition.

https://www.change.org/p/the-labrad...dard-by-requiring-testing-for-the-dilute-gene


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## Whitettopstang87 (Aug 11, 2015)

I appreciate the support. I selected this dog because of the pidigree. The sire is a MH and dam was a SH and a dock jumping champion. The litter had 8 puppies obviously not all silver. It's hard to say but at 6 weeks my pup was the most active and had the best retrieving drive out of the litter. That's why I picked him. I am not going to breed him so no worries there.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Whitettopstang87 said:


> I appreciate the support. I selected this dog because of the pidigree. The sire is a MH and dam was a SH and a dock jumping champion. The litter had 8 puppies obviously not all silver. It's hard to say but at 6 weeks my pup was the most active and had the best retrieving drive out of the litter. That's why I picked him. I am not going to breed him so no worries there.


Could you tell us the pedigree, or at least, sire and dam names? 

We don't hate dogs, FYI, or think silvers are "evil". It is not the dogs' fault that there are registration concerns.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

fishduck said:


> The problem with all this rhetoric is that it frequently spills over into the real world. Some clueless wannabe picks a dog cause Uncle Joe says this is the "best". As the wannabe finishes reading Water Dog, they learn about the world of field trials & hunt tests. So they dig further & find a local training day. The silver wonder dog makes his appearance & I bet every one of you can predict the results. After enduring snide remarks, ridicule and possibly failure, the no longer wannabe goes home. Never to return.
> 
> Please try to differentiate between breeders & owners. At one point all of us were clueless!


Mark, I am with you on that one - education is best. Just hate to encourage them to breed it. lol But you don't want to discourage them from the sport either.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

It is truly sad how bad this issue is. I am VERY new to the lab world and am trying to learn as much as I can so I get home I can to the best with my pup and maybe get him hunt tested. But with all the research I have done, I have yet to find solid proof that a silver lab is not a pure lab. In fact I read that the diluted gene is a recessive gene. That gene was faced out at some point due to the pups being "different". When times change, so did some peoples opinions, and so did breeding habbits. People like to say that silvers look just like Weims, but they never explain why the rest of the litter looks like a lab. Why does only the silver lab resemble the Weim?? Shouldn't they all from that litter? I was initially drawn to this litter because it was coming a from a very good friend of the family. Then I look in the pedigree and loved the looks of the dogs. Guess what, not all where silver. All "colors" where in the immediate family, oh and guess what color his dad is.....Yellow, and is HRC title by 1yr old. But no one would "question" his purity. I did not pick my pup based on his color at all. I was more interested in his attitude and temperament. 


Anyway, fishduck is pretty acurrate with this comment, "The silver wonder dog makes his appearance & I bet every one of you can predict the results. After enduring snide remarks, ridicule and possibly failure, the no longer wannabe goes home. Never to return." This is the crap that makes me nervous about testing. In my opinion, this type of attitude and such strong ill feelings towards a dilute is not going to help the sport in anyway. Dilutes are not going anywhere. Neither are the bright whites or fox reds....Oh wait, never hear anyone complaining about those.....Also, to be honest, after reading this thread, this is the exact reason why I was hesitant to post a pic of my pup. I will gladly go ahead and post a pic of the pedigree if anyone cares. I will go ahead and attach a pic of the sire and you tell me if you see and Weim.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The thing is the gene is in the population, whether it was brought in or not. It's still in the population, the color has been registered falsely for decades, and as with most recessives it's probably hiding in many different pedigrees that you wouldn't expect. At this point it has been back-crossed to the normal population so much that realistically there's no way aside a dog having a d gene you'd be able to distinguish individuals from any other pure-bred Labrador, genetically. I feel the only thing you can do about it is treat it as it is, an unwanted recessive gene that produces a breed disqualification. Just as black and tan, brindle or Dudley. So you do what you can to keep it out of your stock. Silver is a bit different because it's registered under a normal coat color, so it's hard to trace in a pedigree all dogs will show-up as chocolate-black-yellow, but then again the same is true with Dudleys. Still as there's genetic test to prevent accidental Dudley's there's also one to prevent silver, so test your stock. But don't demonize the owners of such dogs (they're not intentionally breeding a disqualifying trait, and they are registering their dog as the AKC has instructed them to). We don't demonize those that have Dudley dogs or those that have a black and tan dog. We educate them and perhaps they decide to never breed (realistically most people don't) and the next time they buy a dog; they get one that you don't need to question what color to mark down on your AKC paperwork. How many of us got into this sport with a pure-bred pup of questionable back-yard pedigree? That first dog set the hook, but the next dog most likely came from better stock, who was better suited toward the work.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

well this wont go offer to well. but I am keeping my pup intact and leaving the option of studding him out an option. He will be tested and cleared prior to. IF his tests are not clear or pose a potential problem, then I wont.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

nickd907 said:


> It is truly sad how bad this issue is. I am VERY new to the lab world and am trying to learn as much as I can so I get home I can to the best with my pup and maybe get him hunt tested. But with all the research I have done, I have yet to find solid proof that a silver lab is not a pure lab. In fact I read that the diluted gene is a recessive gene. That gene was faced out at some point due to the pups being "different". When times change, so did some peoples opinions, and so did breeding habbits. People like to say that silvers look just like Weims, but they never explain why the rest of the litter looks like a lab. Why does only the silver lab resemble the Weim?? Shouldn't they all from that litter? I was initially drawn to this litter because it was coming a from a very good friend of the family. Then I look in the pedigree and loved the looks of the dogs. Guess what, not all where silver. All "colors" where in the immediate family, oh and guess what color his dad is.....Yellow, and is HRC title by 1yr old. But no one would "question" his purity. I did not pick my pup based on his color at all. I was more interested in his attitude and temperament.
> 
> 
> Anyway, fishduck is pretty acurrate with this comment, "The silver wonder dog makes his appearance & I bet every one of you can predict the results. After enduring snide remarks, ridicule and possibly failure, the no longer wannabe goes home. Never to return." This is the crap that makes me nervous about testing. In my opinion, this type of attitude and such strong ill feelings towards a dilute is not going to help the sport in anyway. Dilutes are not going anywhere. Neither are the bright whites or fox reds....Oh wait, never hear anyone complaining about those.....Also, to be honest, after reading this thread, this is the exact reason why I was hesitant to post a pic of my pup. I will gladly go ahead and post a pic of the pedigree if anyone cares. I will go ahead and attach a pic of the sire and you tell me if you see and Weim.
> ...


 When breeding two purebred labs (by that- I mean dogs that have NEVER had the cross of weim/lab in their pedigree ), not all puppies look the same in a litter. Same thing with a litter that HAS had weim/lab crosses in the background (even many generations ago), they arent all going to look alike-and the traits that each individual puppy gets, will not be the same as a littermate. That is why not every pup in a litter has the weim look-but plenty do and that only came from one thing.
In regards to fox reds and "bright whites", they are specifically described in the Labrador standard as yellow. Show me where the word SILVER is mentioned in the AKC standard . Unless you read where the breed consists of three colors- Black, yellow and Chocolate , "any other solid color or combination of" is a DISQUALIFICATION. "


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

nickd907 said:


> well this wont go offer to well. but I am keeping my pup intact and leaving the option of studding him out an option. He will be tested and cleared prior to. IF his tests are not clear or pose a potential problem, then I wont.


Your option, realistically shouldn't neuter until the dog has finished growing, from a health stance anyway. Still I can't see a dog with a disqualifying fault ever being considered a good candidate for breeding to most reputable people in the breed, regardless of venue. There's a lot of excellent stud candidates out there without such faults, to choose from, even so many of those candidates will never get bred. That is of course unless you stack the odds by setting up breedings to intentionally produce disqualifying breed traits, which is highly contrary to maintaining any uniformity in any particular pure-bred breed of dog. A breed which has an official standard decided on by it's parent club, remaining largely unchanged since the inception of the breed, in which they describe things like acceptable breed coloration.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Eventually the silver will loose its draw of rare just like the doodles did. If I had a ton of money to waste, I still wouldn't use it to campaign silvers, but you are free to prove whatever you want to prove. The LRC is not going to accept it and they are in fact taking a stronger stance so it will not be accepted even if people make MH or even an FC. If you cross to better Labs for 10+ generations eventually some will be found with talent and improved health certs, but they will still be dilutes.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Billie said:


> When breeding two purebred labs (by that- I mean dogs that have NEVER had the cross of weim/lab in their pedigree ), not all puppies look the same in a litter. Same thing with a litter that HAS had weim/lab crosses in the background (even many generations ago), they arent all going to look alike-and the traits that each individual puppy gets, will not be the same as a littermate. That is why not every pup in a litter has the weim look-but plenty do and that only came from one thing.
> In regards to fox reds and "bright whites", they are specifically described in the Labrador standard as yellow. Show me where the word SILVER is mentioned in the AKC standard . Unless you read where the breed consists of three colors- Black, yellow and Chocolate , "any other solid color or combination of" is a DISQUALIFICATION. "


So how does fox red and white get excepted as yellow but silver can not be excepted as a chocolate? Also, if my pup was yellow but carried the diluted gene, upon appearance, no one would question a single thing. But the fact that the coat is a different color, now all of a sounded it's a mixed breed.



Hunt'EmUp said:


> Your option, realistically shouldn't neuter until the dog has finished growing, from a health stance anyway. Still I can't see a dog with a disqualifying fault ever being considered a good candidate for breeding to most reputable people in the breed, regardless of venue. There's a lot of excellent stud candidates out there without such faults, to choose from, even so many of those candidates will never get bred. That is of course unless you stack the odds by setting up breedings to intentionally produce disqualifying breed traits, which is highly contrary to maintaining any uniformity in any particular pure-bred breed of dog. A breed which has an official standard decided on by it's parent club, remaining largely unchanged since the inception of the breed, in which they describe things like acceptable breed coloration.


I get what you are saying, especially with regards to maintaining a uniformity. But until there is a hard proof that this gene is and was caused by cross or in breeding, then I don't think a breeder who chooses to breed with the diluted gene makes them an un-reputable breeder.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Eventually the silver will loose its draw of rare just like the doodles did. If I had a ton of money to waste, I still wouldn't use it to campaign silvers, but you are free to prove whatever you want to prove. The LRC is not going to accept it and they are in fact taking a stronger stance so it will not be accepted even if people make MH or even an FC. If you cross to better Labs for 10+ generations eventually some will be found with talent and improved health certs, but they will still be dilutes.


and the same could be said about "pure" labs...eventually some will be found with talent and improved health certs....your point??

This whole debate is starting to sound like the race issue we face today lol


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

What do silver labs contribute to the Labrador retriever breed?


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

what do they not contribute? do they bring on diseases? bad hips?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> So how does fox red and white get excepted as yellow but silver can not be excepted as a chocolate?


Fox red and white are shades of yellow and accepted by the Labrador Retriever standard. You can look at the genetics on www.Labbies.com of the color yellow. The Labrador does not have a dilute gene. However, I doubt you can understand the genetics because they are complicated. To make Silvers into Chocolate was a wrong decision made by an AKC rep and it was documented. I was told this by the Performance rep to my face.

You say you are new to Labs. Perhaps do a search on silver Labs on RTF and you can read to all these spins to your hearts content. As far as bringing human race into it, that is probably the worst analogy and really makes me gag. We are talking about purebred dogs, not humans. Spin all you want but it's like saying an apple is an orange.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

well if you think about what you said, you can see the anology.....you said "If you cross to better Labs for 10+ generations eventually some will be found with talent and improved health certs, but they will still be dilutes." that's implying that because of their color, that they have no talent and have health issues......Not trying to spin anything at all. I just read what you typed.

But I can see, this is a topic that wont go away and is thriving more then ever.....to each their own


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

If you breed a beagle with labs over 10 generations, it will be more lab-like too. Nothing to do with color.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

nickd907 said:


> . Dilutes are not going anywhere. Neither are the bright whites or fox reds....Oh wait, never hear anyone complaining about those.....Also, to be honest, after reading this thread, this is the exact reason why I was hesitant to post a pic of my pup. I will gladly go ahead and post a pic of the pedigree if anyone cares. I will go ahead and attach a pic of the sire and you tell me if you see and Weim.


 The difference between dilutes and white or fox red dogs, is the the dilutes carry an extra gene that is not native to the breed. White and fox red are STILL yellow genetically


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

nickd907 said:


> what do they not contribute? do they bring on diseases? bad hips?


Look up some of the silver pedigrees on OFA and click vertical pedigree at the top and you will see there is very little depth in hips. If you do a search on RTF you will also see posts from people who have friends with silvers that have skin conditions, thyroid, bad hips, Addisons and other assorted conditions. Dilutes to dilutes plus add inbreeding as a start, and I did have some of the old Crist Culo pedigrees that showed close inbreeding, mother X son etc. However, I doubt you will do any of those things, you will just flame away like most of the other silver advocates so I'm done.


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

nickd907 said:


> what do they not contribute? do they bring on diseases? bad hips?


Are they superior markers? Are they more biddable? Do they learn quicker? Are they superior in any way to any of the well-established lines of Labrador Retrievers currently available?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

nickd907 said:


> It is truly sad how bad this issue is. I am VERY new to the lab world and am trying to learn as much as I can so I get home I can to the best with my pup and maybe get him hunt tested. But with all the research I have done, I have yet to find solid proof that a silver lab is not a pure lab. In fact I read that the diluted gene is a recessive gene. That gene was faced out at some point due to the pups being "different". When times change, so did some peoples opinions, and so did breeding habbits. People like to say that silvers look just like Weims, but they never explain why the rest of the litter looks like a lab. Why does only the silver lab resemble the Weim?? Shouldn't they all from that litter? I was initially drawn to this litter because it was coming a from a very good friend of the family. Then I look in the pedigree and loved the looks of the dogs. Guess what, not all where silver. All "colors" where in the immediate family, oh and guess what color his dad is.....Yellow, and is HRC title by 1yr old. But no one would "question" his purity. I did not pick my pup based on his color at all. I was more interested in his attitude and temperament.
> 
> 
> Anyway, fishduck is pretty acurrate with this comment, "The silver wonder dog makes his appearance & I bet every one of you can predict the results. After enduring snide remarks, ridicule and possibly failure, the no longer wannabe goes home. Never to return." This is the crap that makes me nervous about testing. In my opinion, this type of attitude and such strong ill feelings towards a dilute is not going to help the sport in anyway. Dilutes are not going anywhere. Neither are the bright whites or fox reds....Oh wait, never hear anyone complaining about those.....Also, to be honest, after reading this thread, this is the exact reason why I was hesitant to post a pic of my pup. I will gladly go ahead and post a pic of the pedigree if anyone cares. I will go ahead and attach a pic of the sire and you tell me if you see and Weim.
> ...


Until you have a better understanding of genetics, and can decipher the breed standard as pertains to color/shades, please don't breed anything. 

Ask me if I care if silver owners get turned off of HT and FT. I don't particularly want to see them there validating those dogs that are NOT chocolate labs, even though they are registered as such. Just because AKC screwed up the registry in the first place, doesn't mean we have to like it. Do we have to judge them objectively when they enter a FT/HT? Absolutely, they are registered as purebreds. Do I have to encourage them being bred and run? No.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Always good to look at what the parent club states, and this has nothing to do with race relations, these are pure-bred dogs, distinct breeds as such they follow a Standard, of what is acceptable for that breed. There is no ACLU of dogs, if there were we wouldn't have any dog breeds period. The very idea of distinct breeds is keeping uniformity, while minimizing the outliers. Acceptable colors are outlined in the standard; acceptable variations of those colors are also described in the standard. As such really doesn't matter if Silver was in the breed or not, a non-solid colored dog failing to fall into any of the categories listed in the Labrador retriever standard is a disqualification period. The point of maintaining breed integrity is to breed to minimizing disqualifications.

From The LRC
Color
*The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification*. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. *Black - Blacks are all black.* A black with *brindle markings* or a black with tan markings is a *disqualification*. *Yellow - Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream,* with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. *Chocolate - **Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate.* Chocolate with *brindle or tan markings* is a *disqualification*.

So nothing against dogs of off colors. They could be great dogs in their own right, but when your maintaining a distinct breed you push towards a uniformity, not novelty. An animal of predictable temperament, performance quality and look (including color); that is what it means to be a keeper of a breed.


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

First let me start by saying, go to the Labrador retriever clubs website. They are the final word on Labradors in America, research what they say about silvers. Take no one else's word. A long time ago a few gentlemen wanted to create a dog with a certain look and certain traits, What we call today the Labrador retriever. For a long time a lot of people have worked to preserve those traits. Now a few people come along and introduce something new to the gene pool (dilute genes). You want a silver fine but what gives you the right to change a breed, that you had nothing to do with establishing, or promoting, or anything positive what so ever. If you want a new breed fine create one, call it the silverdor or how about the Obama Retriever, he is real good about giving thing to those who don't want to do the work . But you do not have the right to change something for ever one that you have no part of. That's what it boils down to in my opinion. You are polluting the gene pool for every one. Once again go to the Labrador Retriever clubs, web page before you start saying they are pure breed labs my breeder said so. The word you need to take is the Labrador Retriever club, they are the ones for many, many, years that have been charged with protecting the standards. Oh and by the way I saw a video of a duck retrieving something the other day, does not make it a Labrador Retriever, it's a duck. Performance has nothing to do with your dogs breed, examples would be Golden Retrievers, Chessies, Flat coats, Heinz 57's all retrieve some very well but doesn't make them Labs. Love your dog no matter what it is, give it a good life, enjoy it, play the games. Next time around if you want a pure bred lab, then go in to it a little more knowledgeable. Or if you like the looks of the Obama Retriever then get one, but leave the Lab gene pool alone you don't have the right to ruin it for ever one else.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

nickd907 said:


> So how does fox red and white get excepted as yellow but silver can not be excepted as a chocolate? Also, if my pup was yellow but carried the diluted gene, upon appearance, no one would question a single thing. But the fact that the coat is a different color, now all of a sounded it's a mixed breed.


Not all of a sudden a mixed breed. A lab / weim cross has always been a mixed breed. If you breed that mix to a labrador for 10 generations, it is still not a purebred dog. As for your color question- fox red and white have always been written into the standard as yellow. The silvers were not introduced into the breed until someone intentionally added the weimeraner to get the color. And, as for anyone saying dogs were all made up of other dogs- yes , labradors too. But after the stud book closes - adding other breeds to the existing breed- is just making cross breeds- not adding anything beneficial to an already existing breed of dog.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

rainmaker said:


> until you have a better understanding of genetics, and can decipher the breed standard as pertains to color/shades, please don't breed anything.
> 
> Ask me if i care if silver owners get turned off of ht and ft. I don't particularly want to see them there validating those dogs that are not chocolate labs, even though they are registered as such. Just because akc screwed up the registry in the first place, doesn't mean we have to like it. Do we have to judge them objectively when they enter a ft/ht? Absolutely, they are registered as purebreds. Do i have to encourage them being bred and run? No.


exactly kim! .............................


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Fox red and white are shades of yellow and accepted by the Labrador Retriever standard. You can look at the genetics on www.Labbies.com of the color yellow. The Labrador does not have a dilute gene. However, I doubt you can understand the genetics because they are complicated. To make Silvers into Chocolate was a wrong decision made by an AKC rep and it was documented. I was told this by the Performance rep to my face.
> 
> You say you are new to Labs. Perhaps do a search on silver Labs on RTF and you can read to all these spins to your hearts content. As far as bringing human race into it, that is probably the worst analogy and really makes me gag. We are talking about purebred dogs, not humans. Spin all you want but it's like saying an apple is an orange.


Thank you for the clariffcation about the fox red and brightwhite. Makes sense!



Bridget Bodine said:


> The difference between dilutes and white or fox red dogs, is the the dilutes carry an extra gene that is not native to the breed. White and fox red are STILL yellow genetically


It wouldn’t be just a dilute that carries the gene. It’s a recessive gene. Every single dog would have to have been tested to prove it was never there.




ErinsEdge said:


> Look up some of the silver pedigrees on OFA and click vertical pedigree at the top and you will see there is very little depth in hips. If you do a search on RTF you will also see posts from people who have friends with silvers that have skin conditions, thyroid, bad hips, Addisons and other assorted conditions. Dilutes to dilutes plus add inbreeding as a start, and I did have some of the old Crist Culo pedigrees that showed close inbreeding, mother X son etc. However, I doubt you will do any of those things, you will just flame away like most of the other silver advocates so I'm done.


So because you know a couple people whos dog happen to have a couple conditions, now its directly related to a dog carring the dilute gene. Is it possiable that those conditions were carried over from lab with the gene at some point in that dogs predigee?
The research I did on my pup showed no close are cross inbreeding; however, ever the internet has its limitations and I was only able to go back so. I will be more than happy to share the pedigree with you and help you in anyway I can to see if there is infact some cross breeding in this pedigree.
BTW don’t turn this is something it’s, I am not “flaming” away. My point that I was trying to make got lost in the translation right away, which I will re address in my next post. 




Zach Fisher said:


> Are they superior markers? Are they more biddable? Do they learn quicker? Are they superior in any way to any of the well-established lines of Labrador Retrievers currently available?


So what you are saying is a Lab with the diluted gene is automatically, to be put bluntly, dumber than a lab without the diluted gene?? So this gene is specially related to a dog’s brain??? And now you are comparing them to a “well-established line”. That sounds a bit unfair and inconclusive.




Rainmaker said:


> Until you have a better understanding of genetics, and can decipher the breed standard as pertains to color/shades, please don't breed anything.
> 
> Ask me if I care if silver owners get turned off of HT and FT. I don't particularly want to see them there validating those dogs that are NOT chocolate labs, even though they are registered as such. Just because AKC screwed up the registry in the first place, doesn't mean we have to like it. Do we have to judge them objectively when they enter a FT/HT? Absolutely, they are registered as purebreds. Do I have to encourage them being bred and run? No.


I didn’t ask you if you did care. The fact is AKC did make their call whether you or anyone else likes it or not. Was it right or wrong is not mine or anyone else’s call. But they are recognized that there for should be treated equal. What you should care about is the sport itself. Much bigger than just one dog breed in my opinion. You never know what that “dilute” dog owner could bring. Doesn’t necessary have to be bad. And yes, before I decided to stud him out or not, I will defiantly make sure I have a better idea of the whole situation. Sorry that wasn’t clear.




Hunt'EmUp said:


> Always good to look at what the parent club states, and this has nothing to do with race relations, these are pure-bred dogs, distinct breeds as such they follow a Standard, of what is acceptable for that breed. There is no ACLU of dogs, if there were we wouldn't have any dog breeds period. The very idea of distinct breeds is keeping uniformity, while minimizing the outliers. Acceptable colors are outlined in the standard; acceptable variations of those colors are also described in the standard. As such really doesn't matter if Silver was in the breed or not, a non-solid colored dog failing to fall into any of the categories listed in the Labrador retriever standard is a disqualification period. The point of maintaining breed integrity is to breed to minimizing disqualifications.
> 
> From The LRC
> Color
> ...


I understand what you are saying about uniformity, and I readwhat the LRC said. It sucks that no one has been able to prove that the genewas or has not EVER been linked to the lab.



Billie said:


> Not all of a sudden a mixed breed. A lab / weim cross has always been a mixed breed. If you breed that mix to a labrador for 10 generations, it is still not a purebred dog. As for your color question- fox red and white have always been written into the standard as yellow. The silvers were not introduced into the breed until someone intentionally added the weimeraner to get the color. And, as for anyone saying dogs were all made up of other dogs- yes , labradors too. But after the stud book closes - adding other breeds to the existing breed- is just making cross breeds- not adding anything beneficial to an already existing breed of dog.


Again, still not a single bit of hard evidence that proves oneperson caused this by cross breeding with a weimeraner.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

So lets take a break from where this conversation went off course. I will try and be as clear as possible this time:

If people have such an ill feeling to a "silver" dilute running a HT or FT, then why aren't these same people saying the same thing about a black, yellow or chocolate that carries the same gene? 

That is why I made analogy to discrimination. People are saying that a dilute, based on its coat color, in this case silver, in un superior in everyway possible to any other lab. Never mind doing a comparison based off of strength of pedigree. Obviously, if one dog has numerous champions within its blood line stand a better chance at following in their foot steps. But that doesn't make a lab carrying the dilute gene isn't capable. 


I would bet that there are lots of dilute carrying labs that have an accepted coat color that have won many titles in HT/FT. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Hope that clears up the confusion.


BTW, those that are totally against a diluted gene carrying Labs could absolutely capitalize on this "fad". Its basic supply and demand. If the demand is high enough then the market would get flooded with dilutes, that would make your "pure" lab harder to find. There for making them more lucrative and fetching a premium price. There is always to sides to everything. Yes, this initial flood would make keep a "pure" lab harder. But it can be done. This is the first lab mix fad.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

nickd907 said:


> So lets take a break from where this conversation went off course. I will try and be as clear as possible this time:
> 
> If people have such an ill feeling to a "silver" dilute running a HT or FT, then why aren't these same people saying the same thing about a black, yellow or chocolate that carries the same gene?
> 
> ...


Yes, there are now Labs that appear black, yellow or chocolate that carry the dilute gene, that are running HT, maybe FT, and entered in conformation shows. That happened when silver owners started getting their hands on well-bred Labradors, by hook or by crook, and breeding the dilute into them. There IS a test now that can prove if a Lab carries the dilute gene. That is an issue, for some, that some of the current Labs have been diluted, and there is no way to tell without using the dilute gene test. 

I doubt there is any FC AFC yet that carries a dilute gene, but maybe, I certainly don't know every dog in every FC AFC's pedigree, but it may happen. I don't think any FC AFC Lab has thrown a silver pup yet, not verifiable by DNA anyway.

There are HT dogs, both silver themselves and some carrying dilute, with HT titles. Not that many years ago, the only title any silver held was a JH. Now that they have had time to "improve" their scheme by adding in proven field pedigrees, silvers/dilutes are getting SH and MH titles. I don't know of any that are successfully running FT yet, I haven't seen any myself, others may have. But, many of us know what to look for in a pedigree to avoid silver, we know the established FT lines don't carry it, because it was never there, unless it was put there in recent years. I know someone with a silver female she bred to her NFC Patton son, offspring were black and chocolate (the sire being black, choc factored), I presume all carry the dilute if it is inherited the same way as Lab colors, so now those normal-appearing Labs, grandpups of an NFC, can throw silver if bred to another silver/dilute carrier. That's how it happens. So if one doesn't know all the dogs in a pedigree, they have the option now to use the dilute gene test before breeding, if they are concerned about not putting dilutes out there. 

Silver doesn't show up in any other country, unless it is imported from the U.S. How is that possible if the silver was "always there?" Don't tell me they just water bucketed silver pups from the whelping box. Just more smokescreen, like the continual bringing up of fox red to almost white shades as being the same thing as silver. Read this article by Fran Smith, DVM, PhD, Chair of the Labrador Club Genetics Committee. http://thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=Silver+Labradors

I don't believe the breed as a whole will be ruined by silver/dilute, any more than it was ruined by the doodle fad. There are too many willing to keep it out of their breedings for that to happen. It isn't a threat. It is simply an insult to a pure breed, doubly insulting because the AKC is supposed to be protecting the purebreds and continually lets us down. In 20-30-40 years who knows, maybe it will be just be another side fad that came and went and had no real impact on field, or maybe there will be a silver FC AFC. But right now there are still a whole bunch of people that dislike the registering of silvers as chocolate, the inherent deception, not the dogs themselves but the deceit behind the practice. If you read a pedigree that says a dog is chocolate, and they are actually silver, that's just outright deception.

BTW, you don't win titles in HT, you earn them by passing a standard test. You win titles in FT because you have to beat other dogs for a placement. There are other venues besides AKC that offer HT, such as HRC, NAHRA. I don't think they offer FT-type titles. If you truly want to get into training and running, then do so, go watch some of the different venues in your area and see which appeals to you more. Some trainers and groups may turn you down with a silver, some won't, but field judges are supposed to judge the dogwork, not the color/breed. You'll need a thicker skin to run a silver regardless, right or wrong, but you will see a higher level of training to set as a goal for you and your dog. And future dogs. Because if you get hooked, you'll never stop at just one.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> You'll need a thicker skin to run a silver regardless, right or wrong, but you will see a higher level of training to set as a goal for you and your dog. And future dogs. Because if you get hooked, you'll never stop at just one.


And if you get hooked, I bet next time you look for a purebred with a pedigree of Field Champions that extends as far back as possible, and that has happened already after a lot of time and money spent, trying to campaign a Silver


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> Yes, there are now Labs that appear black, yellow or chocolate that carry the dilute gene, that are running HT, maybe FT, and entered in conformation shows. That happened when silver owners started getting their hands on well-bred Labradors, by hook or by crook, and breeding the dilute into them. There IS a test now that can prove if a Lab carries the dilute gene. That is an issue, for some, that some of the current Labs have been diluted, and there is no way to tell without using the dilute gene test.
> 
> I doubt there is any FC AFC yet that carries a dilute gene, but maybe, I certainly don't know every dog in every FC AFC's pedigree, but it may happen. I don't think any FC AFC Lab has thrown a silver pup yet, not verifiable by DNA anyway.
> 
> ...


Finally we are getting somewhere. I was worried that we digressed to far and wouldn't be able to come back to my original point. For that, thank you! 

I did read about how the US is the only country where silvers have been reported. Which defiantly raises some questions. But I just go right back it being a recessive gene and it just happen to show its self with a breeder that didn't drop it from the gene pool. I know, long shot. But I defiantly feel it is plausible. But I will gladly read that article that you posted up.

If or when I decide to try out HT or FT, still learning the differences, I guess it will test how thick my skin is. I just want the performance to be the only thing that's being judged. I get the stand that the UKC and LRC have. But the HT and FT should not be based on color or features. Isn't that what the shows and confirmation completions are all about? Please correct me if I am wrong.



ErinsEdge said:


> And if you get hooked, I bet next time you look for a purebred with a pedigree of Field Champions that extends as far back as possible, and that has happened already after a lot of time and money spent, trying to campaign a Silver


You are probably right! when I was looking for a lab, field championships wasn't on my mind. But who knows maybe this could be something for me and my son later on....He is only 5, might be a tad young for a trial, but training on the other hand


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Posts 87 and 88, spot on. Kim and Nancy are saying it in a much more professional way than I could. and they are sharing their wisdom for all to learn from. Not all will understand it, not all will accept it, but the truth is the truth.

No need to make popcorn, though I doubt this topic will disappear. Not a dead horse for sure.

I've seen silvers at HRC Started level several times. Sometimes the owners are proud to boast them as "silvers" others are more reserve. I have yet to see any advance above started, but they may have. I don't fault the dog, for the breeder made the choice, created the sales pitch, and sold the pup. All pups are cute, and easy to sell to an uneducated buyer but I have seen and know an owner who admits to being suckered into the silver fad, and is looking for a pup of an accepted color - Black, Yellow, and Chocolate.

I do agree that they will fade as did the doodle, from field competition, for what they are. In my opinion, they prove, or disprove themselves with time. If you think differently, show your proof, or let it go until you have it.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

JJaxon said:


> Posts 87 and 88, spot on. Kim and Nancy are saying it in a much more professional way than I could. and they are sharing their wisdom for all to learn from. Not all will understand it, not all will accept it, but the truth is the truth.
> 
> No need to make popcorn, though I doubt this topic will disappear. Not a dead horse for sure.
> 
> ...



Yes it was very professional, I felt like I was, at least I was trying to, so I am glad they returned in that manner. I know its a touchy subject.



JJaxon said:


> "If you think differently, show your proof, or let it go until you have it.".


Of course, but I cant help but to think that can be said towards both sides.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

It's been shown pretty definitively through research where the 'source' of the silver gene comes from. 99.3% of all known dilutes trace back to 2 Kellogg dogs. Also, with silver only occuring in this country and labs being bred for years in other countries, leads anyone with common sense to put 2 and 2 together.

https://notosilverlabs.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/all-dilutes-come-from-two-kelloggs-dogs/


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

cant open link....site is blocked on my GOV computer....99.3% eh, that's quite a number. would like to see how they gather all the info and were able to trace that. Would to see more info on the recessive gene.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I don't care if people breed silver/dilute. I don't care if they breed doodles or want to mix and match and make up their own dog or whatever. People can do what they want with their own dogs, as long as they take care of them. And are up front about what they have or are doing to the people buying their product. 

I don't care what anyone charges for what they are selling. What people buy and pay is up to them. 

Silver breeders don't hold an exclusive on breeding skin allergies, lack of clearances, lack of titles, etc etc etc. 

Registering dilutes under Labrador colors that they are not, is what irks me. I realize they have no other options with AKC at this time, but, they aren't doing anything about it either, rather the opposite. If one wants silvers, then make them their own breed and go from there. I would very much like to see AKC not register any Lab with the dilute gene as a Lab, but, as usual, there would be dilute owners that would figure out a way to cheat the testing/registry, so it would still be a question of one being only as good as their word. And it would put the expense of testing where it does not belong, on the ones that didn't bring or don't want the dilutes in the breed in the first place. 

I don't have any realistic answers. Except I don't like it.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> I don't care if people breed silver/dilute. I don't care if they breed doodles or want to mix and match and make up their own dog or whatever. People can do what they want with their own dogs, as long as they take care of them. And are up front about what they have or are doing to the people buying their product.
> 
> I don't care what anyone charges for what they are selling. What people buy and pay is up to them.
> 
> ...



Well put!

I understand where you are coming from. Trust me, I get it! If it was its own breed, it sure would make things 100X easier!!


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Registering a dog as a color that it isn't (saying a silver dog is chocolate, for example) just doesn't ring true to me, regardless of the genetics: it just seems misleading. Until something changes, the only thing I can think of is for Labrador breeders who are concerned about the color issue to promote the DNA test that proves their stock doesn't include the dilute gene. There will still be pet buyers and those new to the breed who don't know what to look for (as there are already so many who don't know about hips, elbows, EIC, etc.,) but it might eventually lead to a more informed public. We can't stop those who want silvers from doing their own thing under the current rules, but we can do a better job of getting the information out there.

I don't even have a dog in this hunt, since our house is full of chessie hairballs, but I hate to see a wonderful breed getting beat up over what seems like a technicality that's based on one person's decision years ago.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

There is a site, I will see if I can find it, its a registry of labs are either speculated or proven to carry the diluted gene.

Edit: http://labradorretrieverclub.eu/


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

http://www.labradorcouncil.com/accomplishments.html

Came across this link of some accomplishments of dilute carrying labs.

*ErinsEdge, *I was looking on the OFA website trying to research the pedigree. I was wondering if you could tell me what I am looking for*. *


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

nickd907 said:


> http://www.labradorcouncil.com/accomplishments.html
> 
> Came across this link of some accomplishments of dilute carrying labs.
> 
> *ErinsEdge, *I was looking on the OFA website trying to research the pedigree. I was wondering if you could tell me what I am looking for*. *


That list of accomplishments rather proves the point. There isn't much there. Some started titles in HRC and AKC HT. One MH. One SH. Some Canine Good Citizen. One of those JH took 10 tries to get 4 JH passes, and was pro trained. I'm not being snotty, that list of accomplishments just isn't much to brag on to prove that dilutes are racking up titles. 

Go to the OFA site, type in the name or AKC reg number of the dogs in your dog's pedigree. If they don't come up, you won't be able to do much from there, it means those dogs did have any health clearances submitted to OFA. You can order a 5 generation pedigree from AKC, that will show you any AKC titles and any gaps in the pedigree. You can try gooddoginfo.com but that is a paid subscription. Or huntinglabpedigree.com, free, or findretrievers.com, also free.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The proof is out there. Jack Van Wyk has traced the pedigrees and the Weim is in there. There were no silvers until the Kellogg dogs (crossed with Weims) got into Culo's hands and he decided to market it when he had a gray puppy born. Why do you think all his dogs were so inbred? That was the only way he could double up on the dilute gene, because it doesn't exist in purebred Labs.

It's not just a dog here and there with health issues. Skin problems and allergies run rampant, I've seen a number of bad bites, poor structure, lack of drive/desire/ability....Any time you breed JUST for color, which is what the silver people do, you will not get quality.

Two things:

First, if you register them as chocolate, why not call them chocolate? And don't say that the fox red dogs do the same thing, since fox red is allowed in the breed standard, while gray/silver is not. Why the need to lie?

Second, most people that buy these crossbreds do it because they think the color looks cool/different, etc. and are fed a line of BS by the breeders. Then later on, they get hit with the truth, but don't want to believe it. Why not? I think the answer is that they would rather defend the lies rather than admitting they've been suckered.

Love the dog you have. Enjoy it, hunt it, have a blast with it. The dogs deserve it. But please stop polluting the Labrador breed by lying and registering these crossbreds.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Sharon Potter said:


> The proof is out there. Jack Van Wyk has traced the pedigrees and the Weim is in there. There were no silvers until the Kellogg dogs (crossed with Weims) got into Culo's hands and he decided to market it when he had a gray puppy born. Why do you think all his dogs were so inbred? That was the only way he could double up on the dilute gene, because it doesn't exist in purebred Labs.
> 
> It's not just a dog here and there with health issues. Skin problems and allergies run rampant, I've seen a number of bad bites, poor structure, lack of drive/desire/ability....Any time you breed JUST for color, which is what the silver people do, you will not get quality.
> 
> ...


We have already address my confusion about fox reds and bright whites. Already admitted that mistake.

I explain why I chose the dog I did, the color was a main factor for me. And for the record my breeder did not feed me a line of BS about the dog.

Just when I thought we got over this digression.....I will not debate my opinion on the matter any more. I will agree to disagree. Would rather have productive conversation versus going back and forth and repeating the same thing.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> That list of accomplishments rather proves the point. There isn't much there. Some started titles in HRC and AKC HT. One MH. One SH. Some Canine Good Citizen. One of those JH took 10 tries to get 4 JH passes, and was pro trained. I'm not being snotty, that list of accomplishments just isn't much to brag on to prove that dilutes are racking up titles.
> 
> Go to the OFA site, type in the name or AKC reg number of the dogs in your dog's pedigree. If they don't come up, you won't be able to do much from there, it means those dogs did have any health clearances submitted to OFA. You can order a 5 generation pedigree from AKC, that will show you any AKC titles and any gaps in the pedigree. You can try gooddoginfo.com but that is a paid subscription. Or huntinglabpedigree.com, free, or findretrievers.com, also free.


As I said in my post "some". I did not say this was an all inclusive list of every single award that a dilute has won. And in no way was I bragging. I re-read my post a few times and have no clue how you came to that conclusion....I know typing is hard to portray "tone", but in no was I "bragging". Nor was I implying they were "racking up titles." 

I was simply posting a link of some info that I found, don't read into things.

And after reading what I have in the first half of this thread, I can see why there are not many dilutes that have higher end titles. There is hardly any "pros" that will handle them compared to a "pure" lab. They don't have the privilege to be breed to such a strong HT pedigree like a "pure" lab. The owners face a lot of back lash and probably don't stay in long enough to move up the ladder.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> And after reading what I have in the first half of this thread, I can see why there are not many dilutes that have higher end titles. There is hardly any "pros" that will handle them compared to a "pure" lab. They don't have the privilege to be breed to such a strong HT pedigree like a "pure" lab. The owners face a lot of back lash and probably don't stay in long enough to move up the ladder.


Have you ever even gone to a HT or FT? The reason they don't move up and get titles is they fail, not because of color or prejudice, but because Weims are land dogs and not water dogs and you win on the water, and the purebred Labs have been bred as water dogs since the beginning. Breeds have certain characteristics. That's not saying 100% will fail, but it does affect the majority of them. You don't need a pro to pass a junior, but you do need to want to swim to retrieve.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

There's a reason most pros won't take them. It's not lack of opportunity, it's lack of talent. They rarely have the drive and talent to succeed, and it takes a lot more work to get there if they can do it. 

As for the privilege to breed to quality dogs that are running tests and trialing: First, if these are supposed to be purebred labs, why don't they already have the talent and ability? Even most backyard bred Labs with not much pedigree at all can do better than the vast majority of the gray dogs.

The Labrador world doesn't want the cross-breds, and they will not knowingly breed them. The silver people who have added some quality purebred lab lines have had to lie and cheat to do it, which doesn't speak well for their character. Fortunately, we have a DNA test for the dilute gene, and it's listed on OFA under genetic diseases.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Have you ever even gone to a HT or FT? The reason they don't move up and get titles is they fail, not because of color or prejudice, but because Weims are land dogs and not water dogs and you win on the water, and the purebred Labs have been bred as water dogs since the beginning. Breeds have certain characteristics. That's not saying 100% will fail, but it does affect the majority of them. You don't need a pro to pass a junior, but you do need to want to swim to retrieve.


No I haven't, yet....There isn't a whole lot of that going on here in Afghanistan. 


S because you believe they were crossed with a Weim how ever long ago, that there is enough of that gene left that makes a dilute not want to swim or retrieve?? 



Sharon Potter said:


> There's a reason most pros won't take them. It's not lack of opportunity, it's lack of talent. They rarely have the drive and talent to succeed, and it takes a lot more work to get there if they can do it.
> 
> As for the privilege to breed to quality dogs that are running tests and trialing: First, if these are supposed to be purebred labs, why don't they already have the talent and ability? Even most backyard bred Labs with not much pedigree at all can do better than the vast majority of the gray dogs.
> 
> The Labrador world doesn't want the cross-breds, and they will not knowingly breed them. The silver people who have added some quality purebred lab lines have had to lie and cheat to do it, which doesn't speak well for their character. Fortunately, we have a DNA test for the dilute gene, and it's listed on OFA under genetic diseases.


So we are comparing things equal, you are saying that a dilute from a pedigree that doesn't have much background will have inherently less "talent" then that of a "pure" lab with a comparable pedigree??? 




ErinsEdge said:


> The Labrador world doesn't want the cross-breds, and they will not knowingly breed them. The silver people who have added some quality purebred lab lines have had to lie and cheat to do it, which doesn't speak well for their character. Fortunately, we have a DNA test for the dilute gene, and it's listed on OFA under genetic diseases.


Wow that's a great comment to make. There are dilute lab breeders on this site that I am sure they would not enjoy being called a "lie and cheat" or the defamation of their character. Do you know all these people personally? Have you had first hand experience with these people?


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

I really thought that this conversation was going to be able to be turned around and be some what constructive.....but I can see I was wrong. Pretty damn Ridiculous .


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Nick, or whatever your real name is. I have been around sporting breeds since the early 1970's and think you are way off base. Dilute genes are NOT Labrador Retriever genes.There is nothing constructive about sullying a breed by cross breeding with dogs that are not recognized by the parent organization under the guise of acceptance by AKC. There is no reason to accept the breeding of these designer dogs. If you really care about the Labrador Retriever as a breed love your dog but get it neutered or NEVER breed it. Way too much correct information available as to the origination of these dilutes without the silver spin doctors justifying their existence themselves.

Sincerely,

Jeff G


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

You's Trolling.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

labsforme said:


> Nick, or whatever your real name is. I have been around sporting breeds since the early 1970's and think you are way off base. Dilute genes are NOT Labrador Retriever genes.There is nothing constructive about sullying a breed by cross breeding with dogs that are not recognized by the parent organization under the guise of acceptance by AKC. There is no reason to accept the breeding of these designer dogs. If you really care about the Labrador Retriever as a breed love your dog but get it neutered or NEVER breed it. Way too much correct information available as to the origination of these dilutes without the silver spin doctors justifying their existence themselves.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeff G


lol its so funny that the ones against dilutes say their info is correct, and the ones who are pro silver say they are correct......



Zach Fisher said:


> You's Trolling.


BAHAHAHA....by far the funniest thing in this whole tread! Thanks, I needed the laugh!


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

Zach Fisher said:


> You's Trolling.


I believe that Nick stated in another thread he is on a tour in A-stan and hasn't actually met this dog yet? Present from your wife I believe? Correct me if I'm wrong


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

Other than their "uniqueness" what traits do silvers posses that no other color does? Why pick a silver pup over a black, yellow or chocolate? Why breed for silver? Is their something tied to the color genes that makes them superior to any existing lines?

I see a ton of people saying they wanted "something different". Different than what? Successful HT and FT lines that consistently produce healthy, successful progeny. For a thousand dollars you can buy a pup that has all health clearances and comes from proven lineage. A lot of the silvers are that much or more.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Zach you are right, this is a Troll. I don't believe any of this baloney. He never offered up his pedigree, he doesn't want to do actual research, he just wants to quote and spiel the usual spin and he can't even quote right. It's just the Friday silver troll outing.

Trevor next time you want to talk silver, take it to private message with him. He's the answer man.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Brad Turner said:


> I believe that Nick stated in another thread he is on a tour in A-stan and hasn't actually met this dog yet? Present from your wife I believe? Correct me if I'm wrong


Yes, that is correct. trust me, I am not here to "stir" the pot. I have mentioned many times that I am new to this. I did not hide that nor try to. A few have actually helped me understand things, but there has been quite a few blanket statements that make no sense to me. I hate being argumentative, but when something doesn't make sense to me, I am going to question it.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Zach you are right, this is a Troll. I don't believe any of this baloney. He never offered up his pedigree, he doesn't want to do actual research, he just wants to quote and spiel the usual spin and he can't even quote right. It's just the Friday silver troll outing.
> 
> Trevor next time you want to talk silver, take it to private message with him. He's the answer man.


LOL are you serious....proves you haven't read what I have posted at all....here lets see if I quote this right......oh and I will make it bold to help you....oh and if you still think I am troll I will go ahead and edit this post with a link to my very post 

EDIT: man of my word, here is my first thread....http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?119963-Newbie



nickd907 said:


> It is truly sad how bad this issue is. I am VERY new to the lab world and am trying to learn as much as I can so I get home I can to the best with my pup and maybe get him hunt tested. But with all the research I have done, I have yet to find solid proof that a silver lab is not a pure lab. In fact I read that the diluted gene is a recessive gene. That gene was faced out at some point due to the pups being "different". When times change, so did some peoples opinions, and so did breeding habbits. People like to say that silvers look just like Weims, but they never explain why the rest of the litter looks like a lab. Why does only the silver lab resemble the Weim?? Shouldn't they all from that litter? I was initially drawn to this litter because it was coming a from a very good friend of the family. Then I look in the pedigree and loved the looks of the dogs. Guess what, not all where silver. All "colors" where in the immediate family, oh and guess what color his dad is.....Yellow, and is HRC title by 1yr old. But no one would "question" his purity. I did not pick my pup based on his color at all. I was more interested in his attitude and temperament.
> 
> 
> Anyway, fishduck is pretty acurrate with this comment, "The silver wonder dog makes his appearance & I bet every one of you can predict the results. After enduring snide remarks, ridicule and possibly failure, the no longer wannabe goes home. Never to return." This is the crap that makes me nervous about testing. In my opinion, this type of attitude and such strong ill feelings towards a dilute is not going to help the sport in anyway. Dilutes are not going anywhere. Neither are the bright whites or fox reds....Oh wait, never hear anyone complaining about those.....Also, to be honest, after reading this thread, this is the exact reason why I was hesitant to post a pic of my pup.* I will gladly go ahead and post a pic of the pedigree if anyone cares*. I will go ahead and attach a pic of the sire and you tell me if you see and Weim.
> ...


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Zach Fisher said:


> Other than their "uniqueness" what traits do silvers posses that no other color does? Why pick a silver pup over a black, yellow or chocolate? Why breed for silver? Is their something tied to the color genes that makes them superior to any existing lines?
> 
> I see a ton of people saying they wanted "something different". Different than what? Successful HT and FT lines that consistently produce healthy, successful progeny. For a thousand dollars you can buy a pup that has all health clearances and comes from proven lineage. A lot of the silvers are that much or more.


Valid question, I chose the litter because the breeder is a very close friend of the family. will not get into private details about that....I didn't really know I was going to get a lab until just before I found out they were breeding. They did specifically breed for silver. The dam is charcoal and the sire is yellow. Both carrying the dilute gene. I never stated nor do I believe one color is more superior other then what is there in the eye of the be holder. I knew and still don't, know anything about HT FT so I was looking for that in a dogs pedigree. Both the sire and dam to this litter wore both cleared health wise.....And why would you think that I paid more then 1,000....after we made the decision on the pup, I did more looking around and everything I found was 1000-1200, around my area tho....Actually the most expensive that I found was fox red and they were 1400. But of course, none of these were HT or FT champs.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Oh so since someone wont come out and actually ask to see...here is my pups pedigree

Sire's:http://huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=83975

having trouble finding the Dams pedigree on this computer, will edit with her's when I find it


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Lots of silver in his pedigree, of course- Those noted as chocolate- are actually silvers, you can tell by their name. and "Silvertone" is also known as "Coppertone" kennels. She has two names ,one for her silvers and one for her normals.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Simple truth of it is..If you got a Silver, and if your gonna play the games your gonna have a long road to hoe, even if the dog is a phenom. Many people just gonna have it out against yah, because the dog is the color it is regardless. Some will be OK with the dog itself; after all it's not the dogs fault, he's that color; but most of those people will be absolutely against, breeding the dog adding more of a disqualification into the population. Some will be nice, some will be down-right rude. As most have been working with the top performance dogs of the breed for years upon years, you will not change their minds. It'll be up to you to decide if you can handle it or do other things with your time.

Still You've got a pup. All pups should be loved, trained to do a job they enjoy, and a team should be taken to where they can be taken. There's many years to enjoy, and no need to decide things that might or might not be. So good luck in your endeavors, with him.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Yup, but some of the labs listed as chocolate are actually chocolate. I have the pics on my work computer, not there now. But you can just google the names and find them. Colts moms side, starting with the great grand sore and dam, they are both silver. The grand sire and dam are both yellow, and his sire and dam are both yellow as well. It seems most of his pedigree is filled with yellow.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

As is frequently the case your first dog is a stepping stone dog, a dog that you are going to learn a lot from and one that you will never forget. You are going to learn a helluva lot from this dog as time goes on. One of the hardest things for people to understand is that it takes more than four legs and a tail to get to the HRCH, MH, QAA, FC or AFC level. Buying a pup out of proven stock is more than just following the status quo, it stacks the odds of success in your favor.

Good luck with your pup and thanks for your service.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I don't believe Nick is trolling, at least he is willing to have an adult discussion. As others have said, the silvers are lacking in performance pedigrees, so likely less talented , so the road will be harder. The only silver I have seen was in MH and the dog's performance was weak, but he did get a title after numerous attempts. It is great if you love your dog, but you will never change many of our minds that the original cross was with a weim. http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...earch-says-dilutes-come-from-two-Kellogg-dogs

I just sent home a 1/2 weim 1/2 lab bitch who took TWO months to get forced to the ground, the owner did not want me to give up , she still is a half assed retriever, but may make him happy picking up easy birds ( lack of marking ability and perseverance) and will be able to run simple blinds.

Good luck with your pup, please don't breed him , especially if you don't get any higher level titles and thank you for your service.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

nickd907 said:


> So we are comparing things equal, you are saying that a dilute from a pedigree that doesn't have much background will have inherently less "talent" then that of a "pure" lab with a comparable pedigree???


There is no truly comparable pedigree between the two. However, I will wager that the average backyard Lab that hunts a few weeks a year will have far more talent, drive and desire than the vast majority of silvers, who have only been bred for color with no thought about any other traits. There are some breeders who are realizing they haven't got the talent and they are trying to add that by purchasing well bred Labs and crossing them. If the silvers were truly Labs, why the lack of talent in comparison? 






nickd907 said:


> Wow that's a great comment to make. There are dilute lab breeders on this site that I am sure they would not enjoy being called a "lie and cheat" or the defamation of their character. Do you know all these people personally? Have you had first hand experience with these people?


I have met many, many silver breeders. One bought a chocolate lab puppy from me, without telling me he planned to use it in his silver program. He was disappointed that she never threw silver pups. I told him she never would. And from that day forward, my pups (although all Chessies now) are sold only on limited registration so they can't be bred to produce registered pups. 

I knew the guy who started the whole silver thing, and he is not a pleasant person at all (and that's being kind). There were dogs from there all over the place when I lived nearby his place. I learned really quickly to not compliment people on their Weimaraners (seriously, most of them looked just like Weims with undocked tails) and this was before I knew about his kennel. I honestly thought the dogs were Weims.

Had a run-in with another silver breeder who sold a puppy with a really severe underbite and didn't disclose it to the buyers (total newbies) and the breeder, when confronted with the vet report, said it was the buyers fault for not noticing it when they picked up the puppy. 

I've judged silvers...and when I'm judging, color means nothing. It's the work that I'm judging. One passed and did a decent job (HRC Started). Two failed. One wouldn't get in the water, and the other looked at the bird, turned around and wandered off to the gallery. 

I have a friend who has one, and he's done a nice job with it but it was an uphill battle.

As to lying and cheating: They tell breeders of purebred, well bred field Labs that they just want a puppy and don't intend to breed, and they only go to breeders who sell on full registration. Their intent is to incorporate those good lines into the silver population, but they don't tell people that when they go to buy a puppy. Some will run their black or yellow dog in tests to convince people they are involved in the games, and then they get a chance to buy well-bred, purebred puppies and add those genetics, trying to add the traits they need. Same for health clearances. Some have them and disclose it. Many do not but claim they do. Many claim they have field champions....which translates to "one of our dogs got a Junior pass".


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I don't believe Nick is trolling, at least he is willing to have an adult discussion. As others have said, the silvers are lacking in performance pedigrees, so likely less talented , so the road will be harder. The only silver I have seen was in MH and the dog's performance was weak, but he did get a title after numerous attempts. It is great if you love your dog, but you will never change many of our minds that the original cross was with a weim. http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...earch-says-dilutes-come-from-two-Kellogg-dogs
> 
> I just sent home a 1/2 weim 1/2 lab bitch who took TWO months to get forced to the ground, the owner did not want me to give up , she still is a half assed retriever, but may make him happy picking up easy birds ( lack of marking ability and perseverance) and will be able to run simple blinds.
> 
> Good luck with your pup, please don't breed him , especially if you don't get any higher level titles and thank you for your service.


Thank you for seeing that I was trying to have an adult discussion about. But I can see it was a lost cause. The funny thing is, I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to clarify some of their beliefs and question when I see a hole in their argument. 

I am sure it will be an up hill battle, but I wouldn't say that is due to his color. The bigger issue will be me and finding the time to stick with it and try to be successful in anyway. Truth of the matter, a well behaved dog that doesn't run off the time and house great house manners means more to me then anything. 

The retriever training will be something that might also help be a bonding thing me and my son can have together.


Thank you for your support!


BTW I do have one question seems no one answers or they just skate it all together.....Lets say you have pups, one yellow one silver. Both from the same dam. Everyone is saying silver is the one who wouldn't have the drive and would lack the talent.....my question is, why is it always the silver that has the issues....would it be the yellow as well? Or am I missing something huge??? they both carry the dilute gene....
Also, whats the difference between a dilute gene and "silver factor"?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Lets say you have pups, one yellow one silver. Both from the same dam. Everyone is saying silver is the one who wouldn't have the drive and would lack the talent.....my question is, why is it always the silver that has the issues....would it be the yellow as well? Or am I missing something huge??? they both carry the dilute gene....
> Also, whats the difference between a dilute gene and "silver factor"?


Talent has nothing to do with the color of the fur but it does with ancestry. We can easily identify Silver because it stands out. Other colored individuals such as yellow may have the hidden dilute gene and not be very talented either, but we just look at them as maybe poorly trained. Now the correct nomenclature is Dilute gene. Like I said, do a search on RTF on all the silver threads and we have had trolls just trying to refute the authenticity of the silver gene and they argue and want proof and have the same spiel. There is no proof unless you can find the bones of the Weim and DNA test some of the early individuals. There was not that science back then so there will never have proof. The spin is usually copied from the Silver websites. When you actually begin training, you will probably start seeing what some of us veterans are talking about. It's much more fun training a talented dog bred to hunt and retrieve, than a BYB or a mutt although it can be done. Good luck with that, and if you listen to advice instead our taking a confrontation stance, you may learn more.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

nickd907 said:


> BTW I do have one question seems no one answers or they just skate it all together.....Lets say you have pups, one yellow one silver. Both from the same dam. Everyone is saying silver is the one who wouldn't have the drive and would lack the talent.....my question is, why is it always the silver that has the issues....would it be the yellow as well? Or am I missing something huge??? they both carry the dilute gene....
> Also, whats the difference between a dilute gene and "silver factor"?


assuming the sire is the same as well.
Genetics are an impossible thing to predict. I am no geneticist - but it could very well be that the dilute dog (with two dilute genes) is more likely also to carry other genes associated with attributes not desired in a retriever. maybe someone else with more knowledge about genetics could tell you.

I agree with others, and it is a shame in many ways, that silver breeders probably do bring in better stock to cross with their dilutes Hoping those desired attributes will strengthen their own line. When you consider the small number of 'silver' dogs on the face of the earth, odds are good that the goods are odd... LOL.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

All of this talk about judges (field trial and hunt test) acting against Labs that don't meet the color standard ... just so much blather. To begin, performance judges aren't approved to judge the standard ... tests, mentoring, experience, etc. Then, if they're are to judge color, then they must judge other issues such as mouths and teeth, coats, tail, etc. Further, they also must learn the faults of all the other breeds, some of which are also a matter of color. In short, what do we want them to do, judge performance in the field or the standard in the field. There simply isn't enough time to do both. The Golden folks have what is called the CCA. I can't expand the acronym but it's an assessment program of the dog against the standard but it's non-competitive or about what's asked for here. It takes the 2 judges all day to assess 30 dogs. While they may go into a greater depth than would be required here, it still is a loss of very valuable time.

Or, are you simply talking about punishing the dogs that don't appear to be the right color to many of your unknowing eyes? That's sad. Were I still judging, I wouldn't do it because the color of a Labrador retriever has nothing to do with how s/he retrieves birds.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Talent has nothing to do with the color of the fur but it does with ancestry. We can easily identify Silver because it stands out. Other colored individuals such as yellow may have the hidden dilute gene and not be very talented either, but we just look at them as maybe poorly trained. Now the correct nomenclature is Dilute gene. Like I said, do a search on RTF on all the silver threads and we have had trolls just trying to refute the authenticity of the silver gene and they argue and want proof and have the same spiel. There is no proof unless you can find the bones of the Weim and DNA test some of the early individuals. There was not that science back then so there will never have proof. The spin is usually copied from the Silver websites. When you actually begin training, you will probably start seeing what some of us veterans are talking about. It's much more fun training a talented dog bred to hunt and retrieve, than a BYB or a mutt although it can be done. Good luck with that, and if you listen to advice instead our taking a confrontation stance, you may learn more.


I haven't been refuting the authenticity of the gene. I have agree on both points from both sides. I just wish there was solid proof, but like you said, it was available then.

I was not being confrontational, just not going to sit back and except some BS answer/response. So let me get this straight, if you see a yellow lab struggling, you assume poor training. But if you see a "silver" you automatically assume, its gene related...never mind trying to investigate the lack of training or pedigree with the silver. LOL, this has been the issue the whole time......its getting laughable at this point.

I will for sure ask for and take what ever advice I can get when it comes to training. I know I will need it.



Tobias said:


> assuming the sire is the same as well.
> Genetics are an impossible thing to predict. I am no geneticist - but it could very well be that the dilute dog (with two dilute genes) is more likely also to carry other genes associated with attributes not desired in a retriever. maybe someone else with more knowledge about genetics could tell you.
> 
> I agree with others, and it is a shame in many ways, that silver breeders probably do *bring in better stock to cross with their dilutes Hoping those desired attributes will strengthen their own line*. When you consider the small number of 'silver' dogs on the face of the earth, odds are good that the goods are odd... LOL.


Sorry meant to say both pups from same litter. So yes, same sire and same dam.

*Is this not what everyone is trying to do LMAO*!!!


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Eric Johnson said:


> All of this talk about judges (field trial and hunt test) acting against Labs that don't meet the color standard ... just so much blather. To begin, performance judges aren't approved to judge the standard ... tests, mentoring, experience, etc. Then, if they're are to judge color, then they must judge other issues such as mouths and teeth, coats, tail, etc. Further, they also must learn the faults of all the other breeds, some of which are also a matter of color. In short, what do we want them to do, judge performance in the field or the standard in the field. There simply isn't enough time to do both. The Golden folks have what is called the CCA. I can't expand the acronym but it's an assessment program of the dog against the standard but it's non-competitive or about what's asked for here. It takes the 2 judges all day to assess 30 dogs. While they may go into a greater depth than would be required here, it still is a loss of very valuable time.
> 
> Or, are you simply talking about punishing the dogs that don't appear to be the right color to many of your unknowing eyes? That's sad. Were I still judging, I wouldn't do it because the color of a Labrador retriever has nothing to do with how s/he retrieves birds.


I really hope the local clubs and judges in my area have this same thought process!


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

Nick, This is the truth, my first lab was from a puppy mill, second from a back yard breeder. I have learned so much from these first two dogs. We loved them both very much, but they were basically worthless as retrievers. Love your dog, have fun and most of all thank you for your service to our country. Gob bless.




Tony Marshall said:


> As is frequently the case your first dog is a stepping stone dog, a dog that you are going to learn a lot from and one that you will never forget. You are going to learn a helluva lot from this dog as time goes on. One of the hardest things for people to understand is that it takes more than four legs and a tail to get to the HRCH, MH, QAA, FC or AFC level. Buying a pup out of proven stock is more than just following the status quo, it stacks the odds of success in your favor.
> 
> Good luck with your pup and thanks for your service.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

nickd907 said:


> Thank you for seeing that I was trying to have an adult discussion about. But I can see it was a lost cause. The funny thing is, I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to clarify some of their beliefs and question when I see a hole in their argument.
> 
> I am sure it will be an up hill battle, but I wouldn't say that is due to his color. The bigger issue will be me and finding the time to stick with it and try to be successful in anyway. Truth of the matter, a well behaved dog that doesn't run off the time and house great house manners means more to me then anything.
> 
> ...


The health issues have to do with the function of the gene that causes the dilute color. Have you heard of recessive diseases? One copy and you are not affected, two copies and you get a disease. It is sort of like that---one copy of the silver gene seems to be ok as far as health problems go, but two copies screw up a lot of things.

The dilution is caused by defects in the melanophilin (MLPH) gene. It reduces the amount of melanin that makes its way into hair follicles, and causes clumping of the melanin, and leads to an increased likelihood of skin diseases and hair loss in dogs. 

I don't know if there has been research on other effects in dogs, but in humans there is an analogous mutation that causes Griscelli syndrome in homozygotes (people with two copies of the nonfunctioning MLPH gene that leads to the depigmentation). These patients have increased rates of immune system problems, low IQ, poor vision...all kinds of bad stuff. 

While some of the posters suggest the poor quality of silvers is due to breeding for color, I suspect the problems they have observed have more to do with the function of the gene that causes the silver color. The MLPH gene has many, many functions besides coat color, and two copies of the silver gene likely has widespread effects on the physiology of the dog.

Your point about discriminating against a silver but not a dog that carries the silver gene is a good one, otherwise. If in fact the silver gene came in from a Weim cross via Kellogg's Kernel, then all Labradors descending from Kellogg's Kernel are just as much a Weim as a dog with the silver gene. Some of the most vocal anti-silver posters have this dog in their pedigree. Another poster made this point on another, recent thread.

I hope your little guy does not have any of these problems and that he is the great companion you hope for.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Very nice post Renee.
Thank you for sharing.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

mitty said:


> The health issues have to do with the function of the gene that causes the dilute color. Have you heard of recessive diseases? One copy and you are not affected, two copies and you get a disease. It is sort of like that---one copy of the silver gene seems to be ok as far as health problems go, but two copies screw up a lot of things.
> 
> *The dilution is caused by defects in the melanophilin (MLPH) gene. It reduces the amount of melanin that makes its way into hair follicles, and causes clumping of the melanin, and leads to an increased likelihood of skin diseases and hair loss in dogs. *
> 
> ...


Thank you for the informative post.

Is there a way to test the MLPH gene to try and protect/eliminate skin dieases?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I was not being confrontational, *just not going to sit back and except some BS answer/response. *So let me get this straight, if you see a yellow lab struggling, you assume poor training. But if you see a "silver" you automatically assume, its gene related...never mind trying to investigate the lack of training or pedigree with the silver. LOL, this has been the issue the whole time......its getting laughable at this point.


 It is not the judges or other handlers job to figure out why a dog fails whether it is innate or or lacks trainability. It just failed, but whether you like it or not, that is what will happen as long as the LRC has taken the stance that Dilutes are not in the Labrador standard. 30 years ago people laughed at chocolates, but with improved breeding, they are not being laughed at. You, who declare you are a noob and say you know nothing, are calling people with hundreds of years experience in training, competing, and breeding BS over and over because answers don't "fit" what you think they should be. You are welcome to train your heart out but the opinion probably won't change until dilutes form their own registry.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

nickd907 said:


> Sorry meant to say both pups from same litter. So yes, same sire and same dam.
> 
> *Is this not what everyone is trying to do LMAO*!!!


Well... yes and no.
It all boils down to what type of dog someone deems to be 'breedable' - that is, does the dog have any significant faults that should NOT be passed on to future generations. 

Taking a poor dog (for whatever reason(s) - working ability, health, conformation, temperament, etc) and breeding to an excellent dog does not work - it weakens the overall gene pool. Conversely, taking a dog with above average attributes and breeding to a dog also with above average attributes (or better) hopefully will/should. And that only works if you REALLY know the dogs lines - for many generations.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> the opinion probably won't change until dilutes form their own registry.


probably the best overall way to solve the issue.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

nickd907 said:


> Thank you for the informative post.
> 
> Is there a way to test the MLPH gene to try and protect/eliminate skin dieases?


The MLPH gene is what causes the silver/dilute color. A Labrador with one copy of the mutated MLPH gene has the standard coat color; a Labrador with two copies has the dilute coat color. So a silver Lab has two copies of the mutated MLPH gene and is at increased risk for the skin issues. Yes, there is a gene test for it, but if you have a silver Lab then you know that your pup has 2 copies of this gene. That is what makes it silver.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> It is not the judges or other handlers job to figure out why a dog fails whether it is innate or or lacks trainability. It just failed, but whether you like it or not, that is what will happen as long as the LRC has taken the stance that Dilutes are not in the Labrador standard. 30 years ago people laughed at chocolates, but with improved breeding, they are not being laughed at. You, who declare you are a noob and say you know nothing, are calling people with hundreds of years experience in training, competing, and breeding BS over and over because answers don't "fit" what you think they should be. You are welcome to train your heart out but the opinion probably won't change until dilutes form their own registry.


WOW, where the hell did that come form....No one was saying anything about who's job it is to figure out why a dog failed.

I didn't say they don't fit to what I think they should be, I said they just don't make sense...I fell like a damn broken record having to repeat myself but maybe one more and you will understand.....The big thing that got me was the statement that a dog with a silver color, automaticity has less talent less drive. My BS call, was how does that gene have any affect on that. That is implying that 2 dogs with the same parents, one pup silver the other what ever color you want. the silver will have less talent this its brother/sister. Surely you also wouldn't be trying to make that comparison with using a lab with a champion filled pedigree to a dog of what ever color with a lesser pedigree...that would be just as ridiculous....



Tobias said:


> Well... yes and no.
> *It all boils down to what type of dog someone deems to be 'breedable' - that is, does the dog have any significant faults that should NOT be passed on to future generations. *
> 
> Taking a poor dog (for whatever reason(s) - working ability, health, conformation, temperament, etc) and breeding to an excellent dog does not work - it weakens the overall gene pool. Conversely, taking a dog with above average attributes and breeding to a dog also with above average attributes (or better) hopefully will/should. And that only works if you REALLY know the dogs lines - for many generations.


And that is totally subjective. 

Obviously a dog with a bad health, temperament are very bad for the gene pool. That I am sure we can agree on, would be negligent breeding......NOT ALL dilute labs have health issues! if that was case there wouldn't be any dilute breeders left.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

mitty said:


> The MLPH gene is what causes the silver/dilute color. A Labrador with one copy of the mutated MLPH gene has the standard coat color; a Labrador with two copies has the dilute coat color. So a silver Lab has two copies of the mutated MLPH gene and is at increased risk for the skin issues. Yes, there is a gene test for it, but if you have a silver Lab then you know that your pup has 2 copies of this gene. That is what makes it silver.


lo yes I get that....but like you said, "increased" risk......going from 1%-2% is an increase (just using those numbers as an example). What I was asking is, is there a way to test a dilute dogs skin to see if they will have the issue before they are already showing signs.

Is there a skin biopsy or hair test? is there any coalition between two genes that have even a higher risk to skin disease. From example; a dog with xxx and MLPH is at even greater risk then dog with yyy and MLPH or dog with zzz and MLPH has shown no signs of skin diseases.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Nick you're in the Air Guard right? 
An F-15 is silver, a Labrador ain't. 
Dats dat


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

nickd907 said:


> lo yes I get that....but like you said, "increased" risk......going from 1%-2% is an increase (just using those numbers as an example). What I was asking is, is there a way to test a dilute dogs skin to see if they will have the issue before they are already showing signs.
> 
> Is there a skin biopsy or hair test? is there any coalition between two genes that have even a higher risk to skin disease. From example; a dog with xxx and MLPH is at even greater risk then dog with yyy and MLPH or dog with zzz and MLPH has shown no signs of skin diseases.


I don't know the rates, they are not trivial, and they vary by breed. I found one study of Doberman Pinscher dilutes (they are called "blue") and 85% had the skin problems. I've also found studies in which they've genotyped skin biopsies of dogs with the skin problems, and they all were homozygous for the dilute gene. 

The skin problems show up as the pup matures, they reportedly show up between 3 to 12 months.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

nickd907 said:


> Oh so since someone wont come out and actually ask to see...here is my pups pedigree
> 
> Sire's:http://huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=83975
> 
> ...


Did you happen to notice that your pup's dam failed elbows? http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1703259#animal
And that if you look up the sire, his past is not so stellar either? http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1633452#animal

Btw, they are both HEAVILY line breed on the Culo and Beavercreek stuff once you get back a few generations.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Looks like the sire's'sire had no hips and elbows and dam wasn't done. Sires other offspring also had some that didn't pass. What a mess.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I was just looking at that info Nancy 

Also ... on the breeders website they say that silver, charcoal, and champagne colors will be.be registered using the "true colors" of the labrador...black, chocolate, or yellow. .. lol.


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

IF... Kellogg Kennels did have a Weimaraner/Lab cross and bred it to his Labradors, that does NOT necessarily mean that ALL offspring registered under Kellogg's Kernel and Kellogg's Nick are descendants of that cross bred dog. Kellogg's Kernel and Kellogg's Nick could have been absolutely purebred and Kellogg used their (and certain offspring's) registries to slip in the Weimaraner genetics. At the same time, he could have been breeding Kellogg's Kernel and Kellogg's Nick to other Labrador females, as well, producing purebred Labs. It could also be that he only used one cross bred dog. Kellogg's Nick, shows to have a very strong and desirable field pedigree. Let's keep this parallel situation in mind before we condemn all of the offspring from these two dogs.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

johngoehl said:


> IF... Kellogg Kennels did have a Weimaraner/Lab cross and bred it to his Labradors, that does NOT necessarily mean that ALL offspring registered under Kellogg's Kernel and Kellogg's Nick are descendants of that cross bred dog. Kellogg's Kernel and Kellogg's Nick could have been absolutely purebred and Kellogg used their (and certain offspring's) registries to slip in the Weimaraner genetics. At the same time, he could have been breeding Kellogg's Kernel and Kellogg's Nick to other Labrador females, as well, producing purebred Labs. It could also be that he only used one cross bred dog. Kellogg's Nick, shows to have a very strong and desirable field pedigree. Let's keep this parallel situation in mind before we condemn all of the offspring from these two dogs.


My reading of the Jack Vanderwyk article that folks are talking about (https://notosilverlabs.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/all-dilutes-come-from-two-kelloggs-dogs/) is that Kellogg's Kernel was a dilute. It says "Beware! Dilute or related to Diluted!" with respect to Kellogg's Kernel. The implication is that Kellogg's Kernel carried the dilute gene.


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

He appears to be a dilute on paper. Maybe there was a crossbred that sired puppies that were registered under his name and/or offspring's name was a dilute. No one really knows. Isn't this just pedigree speculation and conclusion? Is there any physical evidence?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

johngoehl said:


> He appears to be a dilute on paper. The crossbred that sired puppies that were registered under his name and/or offspring's name was a dilute. No one really knows. Isn't this just pedigree speculation and conclusion?


I guess that depends on what your agenda is on this and maybe what your part is in this...


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

My agenda is zero. I think silvers are on the same plane as a labradoodle, crossbreds, but I think there is more to the situation than the written article. Pedigrees can be manipulated; I'm on your side!


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

windycanyon said:


> Did you happen to notice that your pup's dam failed elbows? http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1703259#animal
> And that if you look up the sire, his past is not so stellar either? http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1633452#animal
> 
> Btw, they are both HEAVILY line breed on the Culo and Beavercreek stuff once you get back a few generations.


No I sure didn't, thank you for posting that. Now I will have to research that to exactly what that means



johngoehl said:


> He appears to be a dilute on paper. Maybe there was a crossbred that sired puppies that were registered under his name and/or offspring's name was a dilute. No one really knows. Isn't this just pedigree speculation and conclusion? Is there any physical evidence?


In my opinion, until there is physical evidence, it will be speculation.



BJGatley said:


> I guess that depends on what your agenda is on this and maybe what your part is in this...


why does he have to have an agenda?? Can someone not ask a legitimate question? Even if this question, questions something you believe??


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Breck said:


> Nick you're in the Air Guard right?
> An F-15 is silver, a Labrador ain't.
> Dats dat


Thanks for trying to lighten the mood....but my unit is located in AK, and there isn't a 15 squadron in the state. F16s and F22s.....and actually they are not silver either.....they are shades of gray. Gunship gray ( with different shades), ocean gray, Aggressor Gray. Depending on there mission and location


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

mitty said:


> I don't know the rates, they are not trivial, and they vary by breed. I found one study of Doberman Pinscher dilutes (they are called "blue") and 85% had the skin problems. I've also found studies in which they've genotyped skin biopsies of dogs with the skin problems, and they all were homozygous for the dilute gene.
> 
> The skin problems show up as the pup matures, they reportedly show up between 3 to 12 months.


So because Doberman with this gene, have a high risk of skin disease, then a silver lab with this gene must be high risk as well??? Makes me wonder if there is another gene that the Doberman has that doesn't mix well with MLPH.

So in my opinion, there would have to be more information and more evidence before one could say a diluted lab will have skin issues. Sure they could be more at risk. But again, what does "more" mean.

Disclaimer, I am not saying there hasn't been a dilute with a skin condition. It has been documented; however, it hasn't been proven what the underlying cause was. We know that MLPH is a factor, but how much of a factor? Do we know exactly why those dilutes had skin issues? I am going to say probably not. There very well could have been some sort of hereditary issue, who knows.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

nickd907 said:


> ? Do we know exactly why those dilutes had skin issues? I am going to say probably not. There very well could have been some sort of hereditary issue, who knows.


Scroll down to the list of breeds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_follicular_dysplasia

https://www.facebook.com/ColorDilutionAlopecia

That's a good place to start.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

nickd907 said:


> So because Doberman with this gene, have a high risk of skin disease, then a silver lab with this gene must be high risk as well??? Makes me wonder if there is another gene that the Doberman has that doesn't mix well with MLPH.
> 
> So in my opinion, there would have to be more information and more evidence before one could say a diluted lab will have skin issues. Sure they could be more at risk. But again, what does "more" mean.
> 
> Disclaimer, I am not saying there hasn't been a dilute with a skin condition. It has been documented; however, it hasn't been proven what the underlying cause was. We know that MLPH is a factor, but how much of a factor? Do we know exactly why those dilutes had skin issues? I am going to say probably not. There very well could have been some sort of hereditary issue, who knows.


Whoa! That's not at all what I wrote. Why are you twisting my words??? 

Folks are complaining that Slivers have more skin problems than non dilute Labradors, and they are attributing the problems to poor breeding practices. My contribution is to point out that skin problems are common among dilutes of many breeds due to the mutation that causes the dilute coat color---it's called color dilution alopecia (CDA). CDA occurs in many, many breeds of dogs, and its correlation to the dd genotype is 100%. That is, all dogs with CDA have the dd genotype. However, not all dogs with the dd genotype develop CDA. Most blue Dobermans do, and so the disorder has been well studied in blue Dobermans. 

What are the rates in Silvers? I don't know. Neither do you.

However, silver Labradors are listed in the literature as one of the "breeds" in which it occurs. 

For example, one (nonrandom) survey found 43/45 Silver Labradors affected (Fadok and Vitalo in Advances in Veterinary Dermatology, 2013).


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

wheelhorse said:


> Scroll down to the list of breeds
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_follicular_dysplasia
> 
> ...


Ok, read both, have actually found the facebook page yesterday.....so what does it prove??? It has already been proven that some have had skin issues, pretty sure I concurred with that already. So I ask again, what are you trying to prove or offer with that post? Sorry if that came across as rude, not trying to be. Just tired that majority of the responses to my posts, no one has taken a min to actually read what I said.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Mayo Kellogg is also known to be the father of pointing labs. Coincidence, circumstantial evidence,,who knows. 

Pete


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

mitty said:


> Whoa! That's not at all what I wrote. Why are you twisting my words???
> 
> Folks are complaining that Slivers have more skin problems than non dilute Labradors, and they are attributing the problems to poor breeding practices. My contribution is to point out that skin problems are common among dilutes of many breeds due to the mutation that causes the dilute coat color---it's called color dilution alopecia (CDA). CDA occurs in many, many breeds of dogs, and its correlation to the dd genotype is 100%. That is, all dogs with CDA have the dd genotype. However, not all dogs with the dd genotype develop CDA. Most blue Dobermans do, and so the disorder has been well studied in blue Dobermans.
> 
> ...


If you feel I twisted your words, then I apologize, not my intent.

Yes I now know and have learned from you and verify on multiple sites, that the CDA is linked to dogs of dilute color of many breeds. But there is a reason that some get it and some don't.

I stated nor imply I had the rates on silvers, that's why I asked. 

IF this nonrandom survey had in fact found 43/45 silver labs affected with CDA, then damn near every silver lab would have it. That's 95.5%, higher then the blue Doberman, those numbers implicit an epidemic. 

Where the details of that survey outlined at all? Like where it took place? What kennel? are they all related? Its a long shot, sometimes they don't post those kinds of details about surveys


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Quote Originally Posted by windycanyon View Post
> Did you happen to notice that your pup's dam failed elbows? http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1703259#animal
> And that if you look up the sire, his past is not so stellar either? http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1633452#animal
> 
> ...


It means the research you could have done before buying was there already and it is close in the pedigree. Better do prelims before investing any money


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> It means the research you could have done before buying was there already and it is close in the pedigree. Better do prelims before investing any money



"Should of, would of, could of" SMH! Hindsight is 20/20

Actually what it means is, I need to find out "DEGENERATIVE JOINT DISEASE I" and how that will impact my pup. Whats done is done!

And I would have gladly done the research if I had none what was researchable and what wasn't.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Nick, don't think because you ask a question more than once that people aren't reading your post. I'd have to guess and say they simply refuse to respond for not having "proof" in their logic. Doesn't mean we don't have an opinion, but in most cases, it is just that, an opinion. We are all students, our dogs are the teachers, we don't have the answers or proof to everything.

Health clearances for our competitive dogs are always high priority. Several here have mentioned that. We all decide our personal preferences for our own dogs, and that can lead us to attempt to steer others in our thought direction. Some for the sake of beating the odds, but that can backfire, ie; hips and elbows are a huge player, and have nothing to do with color, but are genetically passed on to offspring.

I have judged a few Started level dogs that looked silverish in color to me. They don't get judged on color. All are judged to a performance standard. In Started, Judging is relatively simple, and a dog usually fails itself. (All colors of dogs fail, usually because they are not prepared for the level of testing, in one way or another.) Genetics play a huge role in a dogs ability, but in Hunt tests, it's not just the dog, a hander has to be in control of the dog, and can fail the test just as easy for not being prepared for that level of test. Gray areas have been clarified in the rule book to make it that way for Started level dogs. Science is a fascinating study, but you won't find many scientist responding to the depth of questions you have here. This is simply my opinion, I'm not a scientist, or an expert dog person, and I listen more often as I realize where I need to be listening. How I got into this thread topic, I still don't know, but I have learned a few things. None apply to my dog in regards to color genes, but good information to have, none the less. I best be moving on now.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

nickd907 said:


> If you feel I twisted your words, then I apologize, not my intent.
> 
> Yes I now know and have learned from you and verify on multiple sites, that the CDA is linked to dogs of dilute color of many breeds. But there is a reason that some get it and some don't.
> 
> ...


The 43/45 is not a rate. It was more like report about alopecia in silver Labradors. Read the article if you want the details, the reference info is in my post above.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

JJaxon said:


> Nick, don't think because you ask a question more than once that people aren't reading your post. *I'd have to guess and say they simply refuse to respond for not having "proof" in their logic. Doesn't mean we don't have an opinion, but in most cases, it is just that, an opinion*. We are all students, our dogs are the teachers, we don't have the answers or proof to everything.
> 
> Health clearances for our competitive dogs are always high priority. Several here have mentioned that. We all decide our personal preferences for our own dogs, and that can lead us to attempt to steer others in our thought direction. Some for the sake of beating the odds, but that can backfire, ie; hips and elbows are a huge player, and have nothing to do with color, but are genetically passed on to offspring.
> 
> I have judged a few Started level dogs that looked silverish in color to me. They don't get judged on color. All are judged to a performance standard. In Started, Judging is relatively simple, and a dog usually fails itself. (All colors of dogs fail, usually because they are not prepared for the level of testing, in one way or another.) Genetics play a huge role in a dogs ability, but in Hunt tests, it's not just the dog, a hander has to be in control of the dog, and can fail the test just as easy for not being prepared for that level of test. Gray areas have been clarified in the rule book to make it that way for Started level dogs. Science is a fascinating study, but you won't find many scientist responding to the depth of questions you have here. This is simply my opinion, I'm not a scientist, or an expert dog person, and I listen more often as I realize where I need to be listening. How I got into this thread topic, I still don't know, but I have learned a few things. None apply to my dog in regards to color genes, but good information to have, none the less. I best be moving on now.


I would agree with this 100%, there has been a few people that have posted good info and stayed on topic. And I made to let them know that I appreciate it. Some others have simply made comments based solely on opinions or hear say. And I get it, they are passionate about they beliefs.

I agree health clearance are very important, I hope to learn more about it so I will be better educated and inform next time.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

mitty said:


> The 43/45 is not a rate. It was more like report about alopecia in silver Labradors. Read the article if you want the details, the reference info is in my post above.


Having trouble finding the article. do you have a link?


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

nickd907 said:


> . So I ask again, what are you trying to prove or offer with that post? Sorry if that came across as rude, not trying to be. Just tired that majority of the responses to my posts, no one has taken a min to actually read what I said.


That every single "silver" Lab that I have seen come through my exam rooms have skin problems.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

wheelhorse said:


> That every single "silver" Lab that I have seen come through my exam rooms have skin problems.


This is useful to help drive the point . Thank you..


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

wheelhorse said:


> That every single "silver" Lab that I have seen come through my exam rooms have skin problems.



Was the only reason that they came to was because of a skin issue? Where they on the same diet? Were the sire and dam both silver?

I don't see how I am the only who comes up these questions....I am not trying to be difficult but there is always two sides to EVERYTHING and all the haters only like to talk one side.


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## valorrt (Aug 12, 2015)

I believe we as a group are missing the main point.......there are health issues with some pure bred labs because of bad breeding BUT are concern should be with the AKC who now have been turned onto this crossbred dog and have allowed them to stay registered. My concern is if this Mr. Kellogg crossbred dogs to get a pointing lab and the by product was this diluted gene how many UNSILVER labs are not true pure breds???????????


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

valorrt said:


> I believe we as a group are missing the main point.......there are health issues with some pure bred labs because of bad breeding BUT are concern should be with the AKC who now have been turned onto this crossbred dog and have allowed them to stay registered. My concern is if this Mr. Kellogg crossbred dogs to get a pointing lab and the by product was this diluted gene* how many UNSILVER labs are not true pure breds*???????????


very good question


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

nickd907 said:


> Where the only reason that they came to was because of a skin issue? Where they on the same diet? Were the sire and dam both silver?
> 
> I don't see how I am the only who comes up these questions....I am not trying to be difficult but there is always two sides to EVERYTHING and all the haters only like to talk one side.


Good grief - your own breeder is not following standard protocol for good breeding practices - why? because they are focusing their breeding to achieve ONE attribute - color...a particular color of dog that is supposedly 'rare' and so they charge more money..obviously sales must be great as they have lists of puppy buyers..(poor people). They don't list registered names or pedigrees - they don't list health certifications (and their dogs do not show up on OFFA), they don't title their breeding stock (I could not find any titled "heathridge" dogs on entry express, which SHOULD list them - even the supposed 'SR' title on your dog's sire doesn't show up). Heck they don't even show photos or video of their dogs in training - Heck they don't even list their last name, as business owners. LOL In my mind they are a silver lab puppy mill...with a dressed up website that looks very nice but in the end, they are not trying to improve the breed. They are taking it backward with less than stellar breeding practices.

I think what you don't get is that they are forced to breed subpar dogs because they do not have a big gene pool to draw from. 

As for a silver lab with alopecia or other skin problems - it makes no difference the color of the parents of the dog... the silver pup has to have 2 recessive genes to be 'silver'...one from each parent. It is the doubled up recessive'ness' that increases odds/likelihood of coat/skin problems...What part of 2 and 2 does not equal 4?

You must be a lawyer, is all I can think. LOL


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Good grief - your own breeder is not following standard protocol for good breeding practices - why? *because they are focusing their breeding to achieve ONE attribute - color...a particular color of dog that is supposedly 'rare' and so they charge more money..obviously sales must be great as they have lists of puppy buyers..(poor people). *They don't list registered names or pedigrees - they don't list health certifications (and their dogs do not show up on OFFA), they don't title their breeding stock (I could not find any titled "heathridge" dogs on entry express, which SHOULD list them - even the supposed 'SR' title on your dog's sire doesn't show up). Heck they don't even show photos or video of their dogs in training - Heck they don't even list their last name, as business owners. LOL In my mind they are a silver lab puppy mill...with a dressed up website that looks very nice but in the end, they are not trying to improve the breed. They are taking it backward with less than stellar breeding practices.
> 
> I think what you don't get is that they are forced to breed subpar dogs because they do not have a big gene pool to draw from.
> 
> ...


For one, the breeder that I got my pup from, this is second litter. Like I mentioned before, they were just starting. And they are not interested in Silver only dogs. If you go to there site, they don't even say anything about only breeding for color....But go ahead show me where you found that info, and show me where they are charging more money. Would love to see

http://www.flyingslabradors.com

http://www.silverlabsnstuff.com (sires owners)

http://www.horizonlabradors.com/ (sires parents and grand parents owners)


No kidding it takes 2 recessive genes to be silver, but it has been found that when a silver pup comes from 2 silver parents, they tend to have a higher chance for CDA. There are no numbers, more or less an observation.



This is getting so ridiculous and so far off topic, its not even funny anymore.....


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If someone is juzt starting as a breeder, they need to do this stuff before they have their *first* litter. That's how the decision is made regarding whether a dog should pass on its genetics or not. Do the testing, earn some titles, then go ahead.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Sharon Potter said:


> If someone is juzt starting as a breeder, they need to do this stuff before they have their *first* litter. That's how the decision is made regarding whether a dog should pass on its genetics or not. Do the testing, earn some titles, then go ahead.


so because a dog doesn't have any titles, then they shouldn't be bred??

They may not have everything posted, or may not meet the same standards that someone else might require. But I have known them for 20yrs and trust them. Everyone can have their opinion


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

On their website they say nothing about breeding for anything other than color, although they do mention great pets. No mention of hunting abilty, sound structure, etc.....just lots about all the different colors, and they don't have some of that right either. White and fox red are shades of yellow, not their own separate color. If they had even done a modicum of research, like reading the breed standard,they would know the differences.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

nickd907 said:


> so because a dog doesn't have any titles, then they shouldn't be bred??
> 
> They may not have everything posted, or may not meet the same standards that someone else might require. But I have known them for 20yrs and trust them. Everyone can have their opinion


Not all dogs that are breeding quality have titles. But you can bet their pedigree is full of titles, and health clearances.

And especially when one is trying to prove their dogs are worthy of being bred but are fighting the kind of things the dilute breeders are. If they truly believe their dogs are the performance equal to black, yellow and chocolate, ghey meed to prove it by going head to head with them at events and showing the world how great they are, rather than complaining they are being picked on.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Sharon Potter said:


> On their website they say nothing about breeding for anything other than color, although they do mention great pets. No mention of hunting abilty, sound structure, etc.....just lots about all the different colors, and they don't have some of that right either. White and fox red are shades of yellow, not their own separate color. If they had even done a modicum of research, like reading the breed standard,they would know the differences.


for some reason their website is blocked so I can go to it....They would defiantly be wrong about white and fox red. I will bring that up to them.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Nick:
You asked what is the difference between a silver puppy and their standard colored littermate. 

My answer (I can't respond for anyone else): Nothing except the fact that one is DQ and the other is not, one has a higher chance of skin and coat problems than the other. In other words, I would not personally purchase a puppy from a dilute breeder, no matter what color the specific puppy was. 

Summary: I would never suggest or promote ANYONE to get a standard colored puppy out of a silver/silver factored litter or breeding program because I personally feel they are less than the quality one could expect simply by virtue of the gene pool they are coming from. There is a reason that the experienced dilute breeders have developed the 'improvement movement' - even they recognize that the dilute gene pool needs help by breeding to health tested, titled, quality dilute-free dogs for better health, breed type, and performance. Do a forum search and you'll see an article from the dilute-breeders' magazine that was posted on here recently explaining this. 

My assumption is that if you are seeing people talking about the benefits of a standard colored dog vs a dilute, they are likely talking about dogs from different pedigrees (ie dilute-free vs dilute), and not actually comparing 2 dogs from the same litter.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Erin Lynes said:


> Nick:
> You asked what is the difference between a silver puppy and their standard colored littermate.
> 
> My answer (I can't respond for anyone else): Nothing except the fact that one is DQ and the other is not, one has a higher chance of skin and coat problems than the other. In other words, I would not personally purchase a puppy from a dilute breeder, no matter what color the specific puppy was.
> ...


thank you for the quality post!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Notice none of them post a link to OFA. They just list the dogs are tested. Hopefully at least one person will be educated enough to go to www.offa.org and search for themselves and also see the vertical pedigree or lack of health certs which do affect the pups


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

My apologies and thank you for correcting me on that.

I don't get why you don't get that silvers are more prone to genetic issues because breeders are drawing from a small gene pool and apparently not concerned about passing on genetically caused health issues in order to continue the coloration which is not to breed standard.


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> Notice none of them post a link to OFA. They just list the dogs are tested. Hopefully at least one person will be educated enough to go to www.offa.org and search for themselves and also see the vertical pedigree or lack of health certs which do affect the pups


Yes, I forgot who posted about that. But I know about offa.org now.

I do have a question about the offa tho, what exactly is the process? you have a test done and then someone reviews it?



Tobias said:


> My apologies and thank you for correcting me on that.
> 
> I don't get why you don't get that silvers are more prone to genetic issues because breeders are drawing from a small gene pool and apparently not concerned about passing on genetically caused health issues in order to continue the coloration which is not to breed standard.


I do get they are more prone....But not all are equal and that's what I was arguing. I am sure you will agree that not every pedigree is the same. Just because one silver has all kinds of health issues doesn't mean that another will. 

Was my stance coming across, arguing that silvers are not more prone? If so, my apologies, not my intent.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

nickd907 said:


> Yes, I forgot who posted about that. But I know about offa.org now.
> 
> I do have a question about the offa tho, what exactly is the process? you have a test done and then someone reviews it?
> 
> ...


Only slightly. LOL...Breeders of silver labs ought to be right up front on their websites about the health issues of the 'breed'. But instead the take defensive stances, if any at all....Most good breeders will post the health issues surrounding their chosen breed and what they do to prevent those issues in their own breedings. 

the offa website lists the results of many types of health and genetic tests for dogs - not just hips. for hips and elbows you take the dog at 2yrs of age to the vet (or earlier if you want preliminary xrays) - they xray the hips and elbows by placing the dog in a particular position. They send the xrays to ofa - and the folks at ofa determine the condition of the hips or elbows. One hip can be rated 'good', the other can fail and the dog will fail the xray and not be given an ofa number/cert.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

nickd907 said:


> Yes, I forgot who posted about that. But I know about offa.org now.
> 
> I do have a question about the offa tho, what exactly is the process? you have a test done and then someone reviews it?
> 
> ...



Let me try an analogy. Say you're shopping for a new pickup truck. Brand A is a solid brand with few issues or recalls, and is very popular. But you really like the looks and styling of Brand B over Brand A, so you buy one based on that. After your purchase, you discover that many Brand B trucks have transmission problems, and the paint is peeling. So far, your Brand B truck is holding up ok, but now you're worried enough to do more digging and you discover that most of the parts were made in China. You find out that of ten friends with the same truck, seven have bad transmissions and six of them have peeling paint. Safe to say that Brand B trucks generally have lots of problems, right?


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Sharon Potter said:


> Let me try an analogy. Say you're shopping for a new pickup truck. Brand A is a solid brand with few issues or recalls, and is very popular. But you really like the looks and styling of Brand B over Brand A, so you buy one based on that. After your purchase, you discover that many Brand B trucks have transmission problems, and the paint is peeling. So far, your Brand B truck is holding up ok, but now you're worried enough to do more digging and you discover that most of the parts were made in China. You find out that of ten friends with the same truck, seven have bad transmissions and six of them have peeling paint. Safe to say that Brand B trucks generally have lots of problems, right?


I get what you are saying.....can you explain more on the OFFA and how that works please


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Nick, In order to get OFA clearances on a dog (let's start with hips/ elbows first), the dog must be at least 2 yrs old. At that time, owner takes their dog to their vet who does hip and elbow xrays according to the OFA's protocols (which you can read all about right on that website I linked earlier). Those xrays are then sent to the OFA who has 3 different radiologists read and rate them.... for hips, the ratings are Excellent, good, Fair, Borderline, Mild, Moderate or Severe (the latter 4 ratings are not passing). For elbows, the ratings are Normal (passing) or Grade I, II, or III (progressively getting worse).

Many of us start w/ eye exams w/ our litters at ~7 wks old also. Eye exams (formerly thru CERF, now thru OFA) are required annually.

Cardiac testing (typically done w/ a board certified cardiologist) can be done any time after 12mos of age. 

Then of course there are the genetic tests of concern: EIC, CNM, PRA (and D Locus for those of us who want to prove our lines are dilute FREE). 

That's it in a nutshell. There are other tests, but these above are the basics. Most of us start training and competing our Labs before the final OFA tests, so some will also do preliminary hip/elbow evals as well. 

And in 20 yrs or so of breeding Labs, I have never had alopecia (sp?) show up. I've heard of it in Weims though. Coincidental? Doubtful.




nickd907 said:


> Yes, I forgot who posted about that. But I know about offa.org now.
> 
> I do have a question about the offa tho, what exactly is the process? you have a test done and then someone reviews it?
> 
> ...


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

nickd907 said:


> I get what you are saying.....can you explain more on the OFFA and how that works please


Sure, glad to. OFA is the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. They keep a database of health testing and make the info available to the public. When you have a vet take hip xrays, those are sent to OFA where they are looked at by a panel of vets and they are rated accordingly. OFA also will record eye exams and genetic testing. There is a ton of information on their website.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, in regard to hips and elbows use a panel of vetrinarians to review X-Rays that are sent in for a particular dog and determine the OFA rating. For hips: excellent, good, fair , not passing etc.For elbows: normal or not passing etc As far as eyes, EIC, CNM they keep a record from people who send in test results for a particular animals and record it to it's record at OFA.
Sharon beat me to it


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

so my pup is just over 11wks old....should I be getting any test done now? Maybe the eye test? Could you also include a "why"? thanks

LOL I am not asking to question the response, I am just a "why" kinda person. Helps me understand. hope that makes sense

BTW, thanks for the last few responses!


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Most importantly all animals submitted for evaluation must have a permanent form of identification especially microchip or tattoo in a designated physical location. This is recorded with your AKC registration and all vets must certify that the examined animal had these identifications at the time of evaluation submission. This is important to prevent "ringers."


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

swliszka said:


> Most importantly all animals submitted for evaluation must have a permanent form of identification especially microchip or tattoo in a designated physical location. This is recorded with your AKC registration and all vets must certify that the examined animal had these identifications at the time of evaluation submission. This is important to prevent "ringers."



Makes sense....Gunner will be microchipped. just haven't decided on brand or service yet


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## Rusty Champion (Feb 13, 2012)

Erin Lynes said:


> Nick:
> You asked what is the difference between a silver puppy and their standard colored littermate.
> 
> My answer (I can't respond for anyone else): *Nothing except the fact that one is DQ and the other is not*, one has a higher chance of skin and coat problems than the other. In other words, I would not personally purchase a puppy from a dilute breeder, no matter what color the specific puppy was.
> ...


Just want to clarify this a little further, so that Erin's point isn't misconstrued. Both puppies from a dilute breeding will be DQ's with regards to the breed standard. The puppy that expresses that dilute allele (double recessive) shows the inherited disqualifying traits and therefore is easy to identify and be recognized as a disqualification. The other puppy who may appear to be a standard black,yellow,chocolate coat color, is actually a DQ as well due to being a carrier of the recessive d allele. These dogs are MUCH more difficult to track and what most of us are primarily concerned with. 

No doubt, there is a market for the silver colored dogs registered as labs. And, as that market continues to be available, I can't discourage anyone from taking advantage of those interested. What I want to do is protect the integrity of the established breed of labrador retrievers. Through MANY years of hard work and stud book validation, the labrador retriever genetics were established from the original St. Johns Water Dog. 

I personally dont see much success in fighting the fight against all silver colored dogs. What I wish someone who's a proponent of these dogs would do, is just as early breeders of labs did, and be honest about the intentions. Establish qualified silver studs, and begin a registry for silver dogs. IF that route begins to take place, labrador retriever owners will then be able to maintain the integrity of the already established breed, and could then force the registry organizations (AKC, UKC, CKC, etc.) to refuse acceptance or disqualify dogs displaying those traits against the standard of labrador retrievers. However, this would still allow silvers to pursue the market that is apparantly available, and work towards eliminating those common disorders and health issues that plague most dogs with the dilute gene. In conjunction with eliminating the health issues and disorders through quality breeding programs focusing more than just for color, begin working these dogs into sanctioned sporting events (so long as the registry classifies the dogs as sporting breeds). 

That's my argument. These dogs don't fit the desired genetic composition of the established labrador retriever standard. They are not an inferior dog genetically, most attributes derive from genetics due to inbreeding, close crosses, etc.. They do however bastardize the breed. Nobody with a brindled lab would argue that they represent a genetic specimen representative of the labrador retriever. That dog will be the last of it's lineage in almost all breeding programs. Even though I wish that were the case for silvers, there is a market. Instead of making them "silver labs", work towards making them their own breed. I have nothing against Chesapeake bay retrievers or newfoundland tollers and each of those breeds were established along the same genetic background as the labrador retriever. The AKC and other registries are simply that. Silver supporters need to work towards establishing a breed, then jump through the hoops of registry acceptance. If you become the first advocate of a separate breed, I believe you will get less disdain for your personal endearment for these dogs. 

On a second thought, and because I don't want to fit it back into my post. This route WILL be mighty difficult. It would require the discontinued crossing of current dilute carriers and standard labrador retrievers. Only breed current dilutes (or carriers) to current dilute/carriers. Only by cooperating with all those intent on producing a dilute retriever could this be achieved. Anyone not willing to follow those guidelines, would need to be excommunicated by both the labrador retriever society (not a difficult task) as well as reputable dilute breeders.

I'm a 100% supporter of maintaining the integrity of labrador retrievers. The only way to accomplish that is to accept silver and the market there-in, and work with those who wish to establish those dogs as a separate breed. Bring your silver to hunt tests and training days, get their health certifications, etc... Maintain breeding records (BUT DO NOT register them as labs)
Just my $.02


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## nickd907 (Sep 23, 2015)

Rusty Champion said:


> Just want to clarify this a little further, so that Erin's point isn't misconstrued. Both puppies from a dilute breeding will be DQ's with regards to the breed standard. The puppy that expresses that dilute allele (double recessive) shows the inherited disqualifying traits and therefore is easy to identify and be recognized as a disqualification. The other puppy who may appear to be a standard black,yellow,chocolate coat color, is actually a DQ as well due to being a carrier of the recessive d allele. These dogs are MUCH more difficult to track and what most of us are primarily concerned with.
> 
> No doubt, there is a market for the silver colored dogs registered as labs. And, as that market continues to be available, I can't discourage anyone from taking advantage of those interested. What I want to do is protect the integrity of the established breed of labrador retrievers. Through MANY years of hard work and stud book validation, the labrador retriever genetics were established from the original St. Johns Water Dog.
> 
> ...


Best post in this whole thread!!

I agree with you thought on creating a new breed. However, it that doesn't appear to be the direction the silver community wants to take. 

For the record, I am sorry I came across as some big advocate for silvers. I was more or less trying to clarify blanketed statements towards them that did make any sense. I don't feel that I have the knowledge or experience to be advocate. I hope that clears things up.


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## AustinLB (Oct 7, 2015)

nickd907 said:


> Best post in this whole thread!!
> 
> I agree with you thought on creating a new breed. However, it that doesn't appear to be the direction the silver community wants to take.
> 
> For the record, I am sorry I came across as some big advocate for silvers. I was more or less trying to clarify blanketed statements towards them that did make any sense. I don't feel that I have the knowledge or experience to be advocate. I hope that clears things up.


New hunting breeds are developed to emphasize on specific traits to be advantageous to a sport dog in their respected hunting field. The reason silver advocates have no interest in trying to make the silver a new breed is because they are not looking to emphasize any traits that would provide an advantage to a sporting dog.


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