# Exceptional Dogs



## Skip Barre (Oct 11, 2005)

Hi Folks Two outstanding dogs 2012 NFC Pete, 2012 CNFC, CNAFC, Guide. I have yet to come across a breeding from either of these two dogs. Am I missing something here? Seems very strange. Thks. in advance Skip


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

It looks like Pete doesn't have any health clearances at http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=SR32603403

Guide looks like a really nice dog too! Hmmmm and he has health clearances http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1395504#animal

What about Cane, FC AFC Ragin Eye of the Storm? He was 2nd in all age points with 52 total points, NARC Finalist, and Double Header winner!

I'd take a pup out of either of the two in a heartbeat.


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

The dreaded EIC carrier bug 

To many people are breeding to clear only. Carriers get only a small percentage of the breedings....


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

They all are CARRIERS of something. At least EIC is a disease which can be tested for and breeders can be guaranteed NOT to have any affected. What about the hundreds of diseases that there are no tests for currently?


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Guide is exceptional in many ways. His marking talent and trainability was known when he was a young puppy. We watched him grow up from the age of 8 weeks to 2 years of age when he was sold. We trained with his amateur owner almost weekly from little puppy age to throughout his Derby career. I hope many will use Guide despite the fact he is an EIC carrier. Look at his pedigree. Guide has a lot to offer.

Helen


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Look at his record, Helen. http://www.findretrievers.com/search/individualdog.php?ID=78914

WOW! 46 Derby points, and last year he won both the Canadian Nationals and was a finalist in the National Open. 

Breeding is a little bit more than what pedigrees look like on paper and all CLEAR health clearances. (I'm sure you know about that, as you have produced some really nice young dogs yourself!)

As a matter of fact, where would we be without some of the more famous EIC Carriers?
Ebonstar Lean Mac
Dare to Dream
Five Star General Patton


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## mjiorle (Mar 11, 2008)

It is definitely a shame that there is more of a bias against the male carriers than the females. It seems there are more people very willing to breed their carrier bitch than people willing to breed their clear bitch to an outstanding carrier male. The percentage of potential carrier/ clear is the same.

Mike


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

mjiorle said:


> It is definitely a shame that there is more of a bias against the male carriers than the females. It seems there are more people very willing to breed their carrier bitch than people willing to breed their clear bitch to an outstanding carrier male. The percentage of potential carrier/ clear is the same.
> 
> Mike


And hence my reasoning for wanting a clear male puppy when I shop for a puppy...I feel for Guide's owner, a very talented dog but because of the bias he isn't used as a stud, I've been there done that (my dog wasn't nearly as talented as Guide, though). People will preach that carrier status is not an issue and I agree in general because they aren't affected. I also get the fact that not every dog should be sired/bred so a carrier status shouldn't matter, but with that said, it is obvious that carrier status does matter. And yes I get the fact that I don't help the bias by only wanting a clear puppy, but it's one less thing to worry about. And if I ended up with a talented dog like Guide I'd like to know studding him out would not have the stigma of being a carrier, but then again, I've got to find that stellar performer first.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

mjiorle said:


> It is definitely a shame that there is more of a bias against the male carriers than the females. It seems there are more people very willing to breed their carrier bitch than people willing to breed their clear bitch to an outstanding carrier male. The percentage of potential carrier/ clear is the same.
> 
> Mike


Breeding today is similar to going to the cathouse to have your urges satisfied, everyone's been there . Everyone uses the same dogs so the gene pool becomes more & more limited, hence a buildup of bad genes. I preferred it when folks bred to the best local dog & there were greater choices in pedigrees of your potential competitor.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

There isn't a dog on any truck in the country I would take over Pete. He truly is a gentle giant and his owner Bob Zylla is one of the good guys in our sport.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Yes, Pete is an immensely talented dog. Not one of us wouldn't want him on our trucks either. The question was why you aren't seeing any breedings to Pete.

Marvin mentioned breeding to the 'sire of the day' which reduces the gene pool. It is worse than ever now with the EIC factor. Now you have the EIC CLEAR 'sire of the day' siring the majority of the gene pool.

And, yes, I am guilty too of wanting a clear male. It is very hard if not impossible for a 'common' EIC clear male to get breedings these days. A male must now be spectacular to get breedings.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

FOM said:


> And hence my reasoning for wanting a clear male puppy when I shop for a puppy...I\.


Make an agreement with a breeder to Buy a Clear Pup out of a Clear/Carrier Breeding, brings Good Lines-Sires forward and eliminates the EIC carrier that seems to be a worry in a future stud. Adds more variety and talent to draw from than insisting on a Clear-Clear breeding. Realistically though the main reason, that EIC carrier sires are not bred as much is because most females are also carriers, thus they need a clear stud. Perhaps this shall change in future generations, if the talented trainers opt. for clear pups, still most people I know care about a dog that can consistently deliver color (blue, Red etc.), and choose their puppies based mostly on that, they usually care less if they carry a single gene or not.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Buy a Clear Pup out of a Clear/Carrier Breeding


I've done that...unfortunately he ended up with bad wheels  nice pedigree too.


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## Sharon van der Lee (May 25, 2004)

Is our priority to pick a seven week old puppy for stud or trialing? Personally I would rather have a good trial dog that is a carrier vs. a less talented dog that is clear. I am looking at six males (4 are carriers) by Ali in a few weeks and will try to pick the best trial dog . I agree the some exceptional dogs are being missed for breeding.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I have a pup out of Juice x Bam first breeding and she is very nice.A carrier but I don't care.I would take 10 more of her. Just will be careful if she is good enough to breed.Too bad Juice hasn't been bred more either. I have an EIC Affected almost 11 year old BLF.I wish more were known in those days.She's Shooter x Sparky on top and Code Blue x Pricey on the bottom.


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## Jill Chalmers (Mar 9, 2008)

I agree whole heartedly with Sharon and Jeff. 

I don't necessarily think that choosing the clear out of a carrier/clear litter is going to guarantee you anything. It certainly isn't a guarantee of workability. Believe it or not, sometimes breedability isn't the be all and end all. For me, I bred to Juice and hopefully will have little Juiceboxes running around in March. If I'm picking a pup out of my litter I want the dog who can do the job regardless of EIC Status. If it works out that the dog is worthy of being bred then do it.

EIC status is a certainty when breeding to a Carrier but there's a whole lot of other stuff lurking beneath the surface that sometimes none of know or can even predict. I'm more worried about picking a pup that has "other" issues than choosing between a clear and a carrier.

I'm going to stick my neck out now and predict that eventually we will see more EIC Carrier Studs being bred to in the future. I think that there are too many awesome carrier stud dogs out there to be left out. 

Everybody has their own opinions on this and that's fine. JMHO.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Unfortunately, I think the carrier males don't get used because there are bitch owners who don't want to test their bitches, so if they only breed to clear studs, they don't bother testing. Myself, I look at the whole picture and would use a carrier stud without hesitation if he brought what the bitch needs to the mating.


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## Skip Barre (Oct 11, 2005)

Have to agree with most of the view points, even though they are different. I guess the only point I can make, is that in almost all the pedigrees of today's dogs going back generations, you will almost always find GREAT dogs that had some issues of some kind. And if they had not been bred, our gene pool would be pretty diluted. Thanks for input. Skip


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

Don't see anything mentioned about hips or elbows - could these be a concern?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Wade said:


> There isn't a dog on any truck in the country I would take over Pete. He truly is a gentle giant and his owner Bob Zylla is one of the good guys in our sport.


"WOW" thats mighty high praise,and since I respect your eye for knowing what good/great dog talent looks like , makes it an even bolder statement...


I have seen Guide up close and was high on him before he won in Canada...his owner just seems to have the gift of having a great National dog...very high on the Carbon line of dogs...could overlook the EIC thing with the right bitch


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## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Unfortunately, I think the carrier males don't get used because there are bitch owners who don't want to test their bitches, so if they only breed to clear studs, they don't bother testing. . . .


Do the owners of such nice studs not require females to be tested, regardless of EIC, CNM, etc status of their dog? If I had such a nice stud who was clear of everything, I think I would still require all bitches to be tested.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Sharon van der Lee said:


> Is our priority to pick a seven week old puppy for stud or trialing? Personally I would rather have a good trial dog that is a carrier vs. a less talented dog that is clear. I am looking at six males (4 are carriers) by Ali in a few weeks and will try to pick the best trial dog . I agree the some exceptional dogs are being missed for breeding.


I hear that! I am very happy I kept my "lowly carrier" boy from my breeding.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Wade said:


> There isn't a dog on any truck in the country I would take over Pete. He truly is a gentle giant and his owner Bob Zylla is one of the good guys in our sport.


Ya think?  

I got to see him after he had his tuneup. Sweet dog.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

*Priorities*

Posts 5, 9, 12, 14, 16, 19 address underlying qualities/traits that 
competitive folks over the years & today, value & place at the top 
when making decisions; decisions justifying time, expense, commitment 
in this sport which has become even more costly & competitive.

Traditionally: marking ability, trainability (tractability), desire, style, courage,
conformation, solid physical condition & endurance were looked for in pups,
verified in mature dogs and over 40-50 years these traits were reasons
there were field & amateur field champions. Knowledgeable and successful
campaigners preferred to acquire mature, proven older dogs rather than
experiment with the uncertainty of early months & years developing puppies 
even though many of these qualities were there, only to change thru training.

Dysplasia (hips, eyes & elbows) wasn't eradicated, but because of John Olin,
his generosity & Cornell University, great strides were made. This has been reflected in breeding programs and was a direct benefit from Mr. Olin's crusade.

Training programs benefited by the collar offering varied levels of stimulation.
Such improvement has and will benefit the sport much like the example set by Olin. It widened the scope/ playing field for sensitive dogs with demeaners/
personalities that early on, one intensity collars tended to eliminate. This 
change improved the performance of dogs and indirectly contributed to
more titled dogs in pedigrees.

Eventual awareness of all underlying inheritable diseases will occur in time
and much like the example of Mr. Olin's efforts, will improve the quality of
retrievers. 

Owners, breeders & trainers making prudent breeding decisions will help to reverse such genetic problems.

Today, Field Trialers who have the commiitment, wherewithall, training facilities
and time, will have to make hard decisions about the issues this discussion
presents. And, outstanding dogs like "Pete", "Guide" and others will make their
mark as pre-potent sires and there will be notable offspring in the record books.
It will require both time and descretion by patient knowledgeable competitors.

Respectfully... Bill Connor


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## Brandon Bromley (Dec 21, 2006)

Skip B said:


> Hi Folks Two outstanding dogs 2012 NFC Pete, 2012 CNFC, CNAFC, Guide. I have yet to come across a breeding from either of these two dogs. Am I missing something here? Seems very strange. Thks. in advance Skip


Hey Skip,
When deciding our upcoming breeding, Guide was one of our top three choices. Our bitch is clear and it just so happened the 3 dogs we were leaning towards are each carriers. Sherwin said Guide is a better dog at 5 than Lean Mac was at 7. I fear we may never see how well Guide can produce simply because of the ignorance regarding carrier status... But to answer your question, the main reason we did not go with Guide is because we felt his stud fee is way too high for a dog that has not been bred yet. Guide’s stud fee is based on number of pups, so we went with Cosmo for likely half the stud fee price and no question Cosmo is a PROVEN SIRE.

THE MAJORITY OF THE BEST PRODUCERS AND BEST PERFORMERS ARE CARRIERS!!!


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

Carrier Studs don't have the same amount of opportunities to breed as
clear studs, because you have to eliminate all the carrier bitches, then add
the clears that won't breed to a carrier. That cuts down opportunities


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Brokengunz said:


> Carrier Studs don't have the same amount of opportunities to breed as
> clear studs, because you have to eliminate all the carrier bitches, then add
> the clears that won't breed to a carrier. That cuts down opportunities


 Yup.

+6 characters, to make it legal.


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## Gwen Jones (Jun 19, 2004)

I think that we all need to stop and ask ourselves a question. When is our male GOOD ENOUGH to be a sire? Clear or carrier aside, if a dog has not proven himself to be a successful competitor with an FC or an AFC in front of his name, why are we breeding to him? The number of dogs who actually get these titles is so small vs the number of dogs running. The carrier vs clear question is a mute point for far more of us than we want to admit. Finding a dog with the talent to do what our top sires have accomplished should be our goal. I do not believe in carrier to carrier breeding with all of the tests that we have in place now but on the flip side, if my goal is to have a field champion, I would first be looking at the males and females who have the traits and skills to get the job done.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Good points. But if I'm not mistaken didn't Code Blue come out of a non-titled dog?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Bill, actiually 2 non titled parents and the sire's sire was non titled.Some junk dog named Powder.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Let's also not forget many talented hunt test and other dogs that would be wonderful sires that are not being utilized.

GRHRCH (UKC - Grand Hunting Retriever Champion)
MNH (AKC- Master National Hunter)
GMPR (APLA - Grand Master Pointing Retriever)
GMHR (NAHRA - Master Hunting Retriever)

People have different needs and requirements for their dogs. 

That is the main reason I created FindRetrievers so that it would be very easy to find a titled dog in your state that would be worthy to breed your female to.

Just go to FR dog search and type the title you are searching for in the dog's name field......nothing else. i.e. GRHRCH
Then add your state and search.....wella, many worthy sires in your local area.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Good points. But if I'm not mistaken didn't Code Blue come out of a non-titled dog?


Not only his sire Code Red but also Code Red's sire Super Powder were both untitled


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## jollydog (Jul 10, 2006)

When I bred my bitch and when I breed her again I 
Look for the sire to be a dog I feel will nick well with my bitch
and a dog that I really like and want a puppy for myself.
I don't care carrier or clear. I have a clear bitch but I am
Not concerned in the least to go carrier. I predict in the
future we will see more carrier studs being used because the 
people who are only wanting clear are limiting
the gene pool and other health problems will surface that
will make the carrier "status " a non issue. It is
a shame so many don't see that limiting the gene pool is not
a good thing. This has been explained to me by many vets
one being a top recognized reproductive vet at
Texas A &M. Just my 2 cents on the matter.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If our only consideration is titles, a lot of good dogs would be ignored and the gene pool narrows further. While titles certainly tell us the dog has the talent, it also says the owner has the time and funds and desire to campaign it. Not all great dogs are so fortunate.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Count me in the camp that have gone to a carrier, both buying pups and breeding.

Went with a Juice puppy that is a carrier, and bred my clear female to Ford.

Juice, in my opinion, is one of the most underrated sires out there. The young dogs I have seen out of him look very good.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Not only his sire Code Red but also Code Red's sire Super Powder were both untitled



For entirely different reasons .


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> If our only consideration is titles, a lot of good dogs would be ignored and the gene pool narrows further. While titles certainly tell us the dog has the talent, it also says the owner has the time and funds and desire to campaign it. Not all great dogs are so fortunate.


Very true, Sharon. If we limited our breedings to the small gene pool of FC AFC's, we would be doing the breed a disservice.

Therefore, I would suggest the AKC reconsider the QAA title for qualified all-age dogs whose owners don't have the time or resources to campaign their winning dogs further. It would widen the gene pool of 'Titled' dogs in the field trial arena.

Maybe Ed could tell us if Code Red and Super Powder were QAA?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

TBell said:


> Very true, Sharon. If we limited our breedings to the small gene pool of FC AFC's, we would be doing the breed a disservice.
> 
> Therefore, I would suggest the AKC reconsider the QAA title for qualified all-age dogs whose owners don't have the time or resources to campaign their winning dogs further. It would widen the gene pool of 'Titled' dogs in the field trial arena.
> 
> Maybe Ed could tell us if Code Red and Super Powder were QAA?


Both were campaigned, that neither achieved a title is a subject for debate. Their field trial records were at best modest. Perhaps Marvin could provide details as to their accomplishments or lack thereof.


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

jollydog said:


> When I bred my bitch and when I breed her again I
> Look for the sire to be a dog I feel will nick well with my bitch
> and a dog that I really like and want a puppy for myself.
> I don't care carrier or clear. I have a clear bitch but I am
> ...


Very well put. Your two cents have great value!!


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

EdA said:


> Both were campaigned, that neither achieved a title is a subject for debate.


Dr Ed, you have me confused saying "that neither achieved a title is a subject for debate." 
How could a title (or lack of title in this case) be debatable ?


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

helencalif said:


> Dr Ed, you have me confused saying "that neither achieved a title is a subject for debate."
> How could a title (or lack of title in this case) be debatable ?


Im not EdA, however Im guessing he means the reason {training, talent, attitude etc} they didnt title is subject to debate. That they didnt title is clear & not open to debate


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

smillerdvm said:


> Im not EdA, however Im guessing he means the reason {training, talent, attitude etc} they didnt title is subject to debate. That they didnt title is clear & not open to debate


You are correct, that neither titled is undeniable, why neither titled is debateable.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Both were campaigned, that neither achieved a title is a subject for debate. Their field trial records were at best modest. Perhaps Marvin could provide details as to their accomplishments or lack thereof.


Code Red was campaigned what would be considered extensively by a pro - apparently what was seen in training with the ability to correct did not transpose to the trial scene. The registered owner had another littermate named FC Rip City's Hot Hand that was a very nice tractable dog but relatively unused as a stud. He had been trained by an Am from Portland named Merlin Layne who had several high quality dogs. Code Red is the sire of Sparkle who is Carbon's mom. Funny how high quality dogs seem to come from a common lineage, just not the lineage that is popular ;-). I could name a couple of more that had common lineage as I'm sure many of the OT's could. The last time I talked to Merrill he still had straws from Code Red & Handy. 

Super Powder's story is different, & mostly from hearsay & observation. Outstanding pedigree with a mom, Marten's Black Powder Kate that was as fine a bitch as I've seen on the circuit. His trainer was like many of us short on real dog knowledge, there was no pro in that area, I'm not sure there is even today. So he muddled along to the detriment of the dog's potential. But there was a local puppy farm that used him extensively, which enhanced his rep beyond his performance - who wouldn't want a pup from a dog sired by a NFC-NAFC & a FC-AFC. Lady FC-AFC's were less common in those days as the circuit was more compact.

When I saw both dogs run I did not feel I needed a pup from either but they did throw some high quality competitors. Both were bigger dogs than I like though Code Blue is a very nice size. I'm sorry I passed on getting a pup from Kate when given the chance. 

There's always more.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

TBell said:


> Very true, Sharon. If we limited our breedings to the small gene pool of FC AFC's, we would be doing the breed a disservice.
> 
> Therefore, I would suggest the AKC reconsider the QAA title for qualified all-age dogs whose owners don't have the time or resources to campaign their winning dogs further. It would widen the gene pool of 'Titled' dogs in the field trial arena.
> 
> Maybe Ed could tell us if Code Red and *Super Powder were QAA?*


Clint ran against Super Powder, as did Mr McFall...I saw him up close once when he ran a trial in Calif and Tom Quinn pointed him out as the sire to a litter with his gal FC AFC Nakai Anny...little did I know what would happen to that litter and the subsequent ones...

FTR : Super Powder had an 4th in an Open and two 3rds and a 4th in the Amateur stakes


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I have a clear female that I bred to a carrier, I was very glad she was clear, as it gave me so many different options on sires. Now I have a female pup out of that breeding EIC status unknown. I actively choose not to test the litter because don't like the idea of labeling puppies or potential, based on a single gene mutation. Do I care what my new pups EIC status is (NO!!) There's No need to put the cart in front of the horse, that little girl has a whole lot to prove, before I'll be concerned with any health clearance period. Later, If she turns out, and we do all those tests, I might be a tad disappointed if she carries EIC, but only because it'll limit me to a Clear male. I don't particularly like the idea of being limited to the same particular males everyone else seems to be choosing, especially when there's so much talent out there, that's never used. Still EIC Status is just a drop in a rather large bucket, bad hips/elbow/eyes/ talent and we won't be breeding at all, I like the odds on a single gene I can breed around .


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

not one person has responded to my post of Hip or elbow problems
trog


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

trog said:


> Don't see anything mentioned about hips or elbows - could these be a concern?





trog said:


> not one person has responded to my post of Hip or elbow problems
> trog



To me, yes they are a concern - I look for clear EIC/CNM, a vertical pedigree of elbows and hips for both siblings and offspring, I look for current CERF exams also. For hips I don't care for fair, prefer good or excellent and at minimum I prefer normal elbows on both parents, even better if the elbow clearances go back a way. There are also other factors I look at too, specifically temperament.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FOM said:


> There are also other factors I look at too, specifically temperament.


Brains, keen eyesight, and trainability???


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

EdA said:


> Brains, keen eyesight, and trainability???


Yes, yes, yes...plus ask around about the sire/dam, not just talk to the owner(s), talk to those who run the circuit and see the dog (if I can't see them first hand)...health clearances are part of the equation, but for me they have to be in place before I start digging deeper...

Dr. Ed - you can understand why I look at temperament, Bullet started to become snarky toward other dogs as of late - I found out after the fact via "rumor mill" that there is a family history of this. Fortunately I now know I'm the trigger (he's protective of Mom's attention), but I wished I had know his family history prior, so it is one aspect I ask about when I get serious about a litter.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Fortunately for me temperament has never been a question, all of mine come from 5 generations of gentle friendly dogs and that includes my current pride and joy.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

Post 24 -

2ND Para.... attributes: marking ability (eyesight), trainability (tractability), desire, style,
courage, conformation.

3rd Para ... Dysplasia (hips, eyes & elbows).

Bill Connor


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Poika of Handjem OFA number 92 no titles, hunting dog owned by a guy, Dr Henry Lardy, yup Mike's dad. Many Golden Retrievers bred to him because of his pedigree and excellent hips. Shows up in many old pedigrees. HD back then 1960's was rampant. Golden GRCA had the Golden Retriever Advisory Council, a forerunner of OFA for HD. Dr Wayne Reiser had a clinic in Skokie, Illinois that started the HD screening. I had a Golden at the time that was. X-rayed by the clinic.
I then sent her x-rays into OFA and she received a 900 plus number OFA excellent. So the GRCA was a forerunner in HD.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I agree with FOM. Temperament is important and more folks should be asking about it. Three or four years ago we occasionally trained for a while during the summer with a guy whose dog simply could not take pressure of any kind -- whether it was the collar or a heeling whip... and then it came to point the dog could not stand NO being yelled. On more than one occasion he turned on his owner. One day he was out in the field and his owner yelled NO. That dog whipped around and came running at him, knocked him down, and bit the heck out of him. Don had to take him to the hospital emergency room for stitches. That was the last time Don trained with him and his dog. He kept the dog, but did not train anymore with anyone.

I know of several dogs who are dog aggressive -- not just with other dogs in training, but with the dogs in their own home. Whenever I see them, I am on the alert. To my knowledge, neither dog was mistreated by their owner. I have not seen them attack people, but I have seen both attack other dogs. They are just dog aggressive. One of them stopped trialing several years ago. The other is still running trials, but his owner nabs him as soon as he leaves his crate and keeps control of him until he reaches the holding blind. He also takes him to air where there are no other dogs. I hold my breath when he has to honor. 

Helen


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

EdA said:


> Fortunately for me temperament has never been a question, all of mine come from 5 generations of gentle friendly dogs and that includes my current pride and joy.


Well you have been at this game a lot longer than me and Bullet was my first real competition dog - wouldn't trade him for the world. But I am more educated now than I was before...and I ask a ton more pointed questions.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

trog said:


> not one person has responded to my post of Hip or elbow problems
> trog


Terry,
I just posted about Dr Lardy's Poika of Handjem, no titles, hunting dog, tied in his backyard, but excellent hips, of course he was a Golden. I campaigned two all age dogs, one a Lab, the other a Golden, with moderate HD we have come a long way with rooting out HD but it still is alive and well. I bred criquet twice, two different sires many generations clear of HD and she produced a dysplastic pup in each litter


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

helencalif said:


> I agree with FOM. Temperament is important and more folks should be asking about it. Three or four years ago we occasionally trained for a while during the summer with a guy whose dog simply could not take pressure of any kind -- whether it was the collar or a heeling whip... and then it came to point the dog could not stand NO being yelled. On more than one occasion he turned on his owner. One day he was out in the field and his owner yelled NO. That dog whipped around and came running at him, knocked him down, and bit the heck out of him. Don had to take him to the hospital emergency room for stitches. That was the last time Don trained with him and his dog. He kept the dog, but did not train anymore with anyone.
> 
> I know of several dogs who are dog aggressive -- not just with other dogs in training, but with the dogs in their own home. Whenever I see them, I am on the alert. To my knowledge, neither dog was mistreated by their owner. I have not seen them attack people, but I have seen both attack other dogs. They are just dog aggressive. One of them stopped trialing several years ago. The other is still running trials, but his owner nabs him as soon as he leaves his crate and keeps control of him until he reaches the holding blind. He also takes him to air where there are no other dogs. I hold my breath when he has to honor.
> 
> Helen


Temperament very important! along with other qualities.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

trog said:


> not one person has responded to my post of Hip or elbow problems
> trog


I look up the hip and elbow clearances on the OFA website, and go back several generations and also look at siblings, etc. to get an idea of how strong/deep the clearances go. I prefer excellent then good....may use a fair if the background held strong excellent/good clearances and the fair seemed to be a fluke (and that assumes the dog has everything else I'm looking for).


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> not one person has responded to my post of Hip or elbow problems
> trog


I wondered the same thing some time ago, and looked up Pete's OFA record and there is none.

People on this board are probably reluctant to post anything negative about the dog (if there is anything), preferring to encourage those who are curious to reach out to the owners directly.

But having said that, the lack of answers probably gives you answers.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Marvin S said:


> Code Red was campaigned what would be considered extensively by a pro - apparently what was seen in training with the ability to correct did not transpose to the trial scene. The registered owner had another littermate named FC Rip City's Hot Hand that was a very nice tractable dog but relatively unused as a stud. He had been trained by an Am from Portland named Merlin Layne who had several high quality dogs. Code Red is the sire of Sparkle who is Carbon's mom. Funny how high quality dogs seem to come from a common lineage, just not the lineage that is popular ;-). I could name a couple of more that had common lineage as I'm sure many of the OT's could. The last time I talked to Merrill he still had straws from Code Red & Handy.
> 
> Super Powder's story is different, & mostly from hearsay & observation. Outstanding pedigree with a mom, Marten's Black Powder Kate that was as fine a bitch as I've seen on the circuit. His trainer was like many of us short on real dog knowledge, there was no pro in that area, I'm not sure there is even today. So he muddled along to the detriment of the dog's potential. But there was a local puppy farm that used him extensively, which enhanced his rep beyond his performance - who wouldn't want a pup from a dog sired by a NFC-NAFC & a FC-AFC. Lady FC-AFC's were less common in those days as the circuit was more compact.
> 
> ...


I thought I remember Super Powder having a bad wheel, is that correct?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wade said:


> I thought I remember Super Powder having a bad wheel, is that correct?


That is correct


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I have been reading with great interest. Thank you, everyone! I've particularly enjoyed and noted the information taht can't be found in a database or with a title, but if you know it and you're diligent, you might be able to recognize it in a pedigree.

Which brings me to a question. Are folks keeping track of cruciate injuries/surgeries on their own, sort of off the record and in trusted conversations? Or is this too much of an unknown? 

I think I remember that there was some research and a request for info/dogs' histories--am I right in assuming this type of study is confidential? (I would think so, for good reasons.)


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I look for sound structure, temperament, style and the ability to see long. Carrier status (clear or carrier) is not that important because it doesn't affect the dog's health or performance. It seems like the the majority of finicky people are not those with a blue at the end of the day.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Just curious if some of the people here require the same standards in your personal breeding programs.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

If you dig around some you will find a number of dogs in the Field trial game , dogs at the national level with HD as are a fair number of titled dogs with personality disorders, dog fighters, macho types, alpha bitches. I have owned some including a Eic affected all age dog that I just recently found a nice pet home for and presently have a well bred 5 year old EIC carrier. Do we throw the baby out with the bath water? If you judge enough you will at one time or another see some of the above personalities. I think if I had the druthers would rather have dogs with decent personalities. If you have a nice dog with HD that isn'tin pain why not run the dog, spay them if you choose or neuter. I have campaigned two dysplastic that were spayed, both , lived long productive lives. They were very well bred. I don't think you will ever get rid of all the genetic disorders, do we want to become breed wardens and cull litters? The gene pool might become very small. Of course I am not a breeder, I buy dogs, train them and if they work out keep them. I do not collect dogs.
Just one man's opinion.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Sometimes we get too hung up on what a litter looks like on paper. That is just a start. To buy a pup by just looking at a pedigree and health clearances is purely a roll of the dice. An exceptional pedigree and all health clearances does not guarantee a sound pup, but it does increase your odds somewhat.

That is why many of us find a dog in which we think is 'exceptional' and breed many generations of its offspring. There is much more to breeding than what you can find on a computer. Go out and find out what the sire and dam are like at home and in the field if at all possible. That is why many litters a pre-sold before they ever hit the ground.

Many litters are bred for competitiveness and pedigree alone, but there is much more to consider if you are looking for a lifetime hunting companion and family dog.

These are factors that I look at which can't be tested for but can become expensive or affect the quality of a dogs life. I'm sure I will miss some, but here goes:

Cruciate injuries
Other repeated injuries
Years the dog has been competitive
Allergies
Cataracts 
Overall health as they age
Temperament 
Trainability

and last but not certainly least is something no one has mentioned is LOOKS!!


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