# TT revisited



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

This is not a new topic. But some time back there were a couple discussions about some trainers drifting away from TT as a routine part of Basics, while others continued to use it faithfully. There was a surprising amount of passion on behalf of some trainers of both schools, and I'm curious about how that trend has moved over time.

Double T (TT) has been a long standing traditional component of Carr-based skill sets for Basics for decades. How have your thoughts about it changed, if indeed they have? Do you still do it, or just the Single T? Why?










If your proportions differ from this graphic it may make useful discussion to talk about why. For example, I read all the time about trainers extending the Back pile to 150 yards or more. Some vary on Over cast distance as well. If so, that's fine. I'd just like to hear rationale for doing it. In mine above, the Back pile is 100 yards. Distance to apex 1 is 25 yds, with apex 2 at 50 yds. The Back pile is 50 yds beyond the second apex. Over piles are usually set at 25-30 yds each. The piles are set much smaller/more compact than the diagram indicates, of course.

Spring will be a couple months in the future, but many will be finishing up Basics then. This may be useful discussion for those heading in that direction. I love doing my T work in cool weather.

Evan


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I just do single T. I have found that I get just as good results in the final analysis. Then I can get through this drill a little quicker. Especially if the weather is hot. The length from line to pile is about 75 yds.

My over piles are much like in Evan's diagram at about the mid point.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

I think the 2nd T is a proofing tool. The single T is all that is needed to teach but being able to handle through the distractions of the extra piles etc firms up control and builds on the concept of team work between the dog and trainer/handler. JMHO


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

One thing i like about the double T is the suction the other piles provide on over casts. I have a young speedster that sometimes likes to take of to the first pile she sees in the general direction of the cast, this drill helps me reinforce running a straight over.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

So glad you started this discussion. I hope people take the time to post as it really helps us who are doing it for the first or second time.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

You're welcome Jennifer. This is one of those topics that deserves more discussion from time to time. And of course we know that sound Basics are vitally important to the development of a fundamentally sound dog.


ndk3819 said:


> One thing i like about the double T is the suction the other piles provide on over casts. I have a young speedster that sometimes likes to take of to the first pile she sees in the general direction of the cast, this drill helps me reinforce running a straight over.


Very good point!

Evan


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

rbr said:


> I think the 2nd T is a proofing tool. The single T is all that is needed to teach but being able to handle through the distractions of the extra piles etc firms up control and builds on the concept of team work between the dog and trainer/handler. JMHO


^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

The TT isn't about taking long overs, or even handling at all.
It's about testing your basics. It gives the dog more stuff to think about, and stress over.
And it's done in a controlled environment, that allows the dog to figure it all out.

The TT is where you find out if you have the tools in your toolbox, to deal with problems like bugging, popping, and no-going.
Is it the only way to find out? No, probably not.

But, it's about the best place that I can think of, to really learn to communicate with your dog, and deal with what's likely to happen later on in "the real world".


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I am not a pro so I do not train lots of pups through basics every year but I do start a pup every year or two.

I do the double T. I think it uses and builds upon everything the pup has learned from force fetch on through force to a pile. The pup has learned he MUST go, not to be to distracted by bumpers at the side piles, not to pay much attention to old hot spots (flaring), and it introduces handling on the way back with a bumper in their mouth (run by, disciplined casting or whatever you want to call it).

I find the double T a miracle worker for pups. You go in with an unsure maybe hesitant pup who doesn't know the rules for going and casting, and you get out a compliant, confident pup who will take a line (maybe not so accurately yet) who has learned, in one place at least, to handle off distractions and not to no go or pop. In short the pup has learned in that one place, to go until told to stop and then go in another direction when told to do so. I really love how much the pups mature in that 4 to 5 weeks I spend on the double T.

My double T is 100 yards long, the side piles are 25 to 30 yards off the center line and I make the crossover points at 30 and 75 yards out. I get my pups to stop when in sight of the back pile and I feel that it is important to be able to change their mind when they know where the destination is and is in plain sight.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Nice reply Howard.

I think the TT is just the next step in the logical process of control and letting a dog learn. When we start with simple 3 handed casting, there is one bumper and a lot less to think about. When we are coming off the pattern field, this pup once lacking confidence to think and react, is handling 5 piles of multiple bumpers. We just added another step in the foundation we are trying to lay.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks MIDTRGRNHEAD,

I liked copterdoc's reply also. IMO he understands the double T and why it's done.

Evan, those guys who aren't using the TT in basics, are they turning out all age competitors? I really look at it as a way to help start to teach the dog to good decisions.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Thanks MIDTRGRNHEAD,
> 
> I liked copterdoc's reply also. IMO he understands the double T and why it's done.
> 
> Evan, those guys who aren't using the TT in basics, are they turning out all age competitors? I really look at it as a way to help start to teach the dog to good decisions.


I'm surely in your corner on this, Howard. In fact your response is probably closest to my view on this subject. Several in the past on this and another board have produced some QAA dogs. I'm not sure about FC or AFC. But, like you, I'm sure far more of those really giving their dogs thorough Basics include TT. 

The only competitive pro I knew personally who only did Single T, and still had good all age dogs was Steve Blythe. I did Basics for 5 or 6 of his dogs for a while. But when we met up in Sanger, TX for winter training he had some he was doing T with. He voiced similar thoughts to those Wayne expressed. It may be that they have not had the same experiences we have with it. And I respect them both. He seemed really happy with the job I had done for him on the dogs I put through all Basics, including TT.

But in my experience, and in learning from Carr and Billy Sargenti, I could not dispose of TT without losing something of great value in my Basics. There are opportunities that TT offers a dog that I don't believe a T _can_.

Evan


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## russhardy (Jan 8, 2012)

I thought this thread was going to be about revisting the TT after it had been gone through once for something like being able to increase how much 'over' you get in a cast.

I am only on my first dog and really enjoyed doing the TT with her. I think it was an unintimidating step for a new trainer to be able to do and it was fun. Maybe some trainers don't need it with some dogs. In addition to the intended training for the dog, I think I learned quite a bit in terms of being able to read what she wanted to do. 

The biggest issue we had while going through it was early on she wanted to continue to go back and not take my over after I stopped her. I have since come to realize that part of that can probably be attributed to me giving the over cast too fast or 'hard' I think.

I like the nugget that Howard provided about having the 2nd over pile within sight of the back pile. I didn't do that but it sure makes sense to me to provide them one more opportunity to succeed.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I revisit the DT often. In fact winter and early spring for me are great times. 

Back pile is 100yd and side are 25-30 yd from center. Strips are mowed down the center and at the sides. And decoys are planted all over. Taller grass between the cut grass. 

Use to correct loopy sit. Have had a diversion birds thrown. Do angle casts off. 

Do what we call an advanced DT which helps you line dog up at start and work on that team concept!

Great tool to teach your dog.


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

I know Bill Hillmann does not use TT. He did mention in a seminar that it was a long drill and Texas heat could be a factor at times. In his new Fundamentals DVD he says he runs Single T at a distance he can throw to the back pile. Certainly a departure from the norm.

He does run a "Star Drill", that has bumpers in a shortened TT pattern. It's a lining and casting drill however. You can randomly line to each individual pile, then stop and cast to other piles.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

There was a previous thread on TT and one op said that at one on Lardy's seminars he was advocating a single T. I asked Dennis Voigt via email if the could confirm this. Said he would ask the next time he saw Lardy. I never heard back.

It is my understanding that Jim Gonia does only single T.


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## TimFenstermacher (Sep 9, 2012)

The TT is still included in Lardy's total retriever training program. If I recall correctly, he mentions that the addition of the closer T or crossover also allows you to slip in a few more over casts without having the dog run as far therefore extending the session longer than if your just running the singe T.

Thanks for this thread. It is very interesting and helpful to us beginners.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I modified the DT,,, For me,, I get more bang for my buck. If you take the second apex and make it even with the back pile,,,so 3 across the back pile. I don't use 100 yards and big overs,,,so its more time efficient for me and takes care of all my casting needs.
Pete


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

It's Kind of like Ford or Chevy. They both will get you to the end, just depends on what you like..


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Evan said:


> I'm surely in your corner on this, Howard. In fact your response is probably closest to my view on this subject. Several in the past on this and another board have produced some QAA dogs. I'm not sure about FC or AFC. But, like you, I'm sure far more of those really giving their dogs thorough Basics include TT.
> 
> The only competitive pro I knew personally who only did Single T, and still had good all age dogs was Steve Blythe. I did Basics for 5 or 6 of his dogs for a while. But when we met up in Sanger, TX for winter training he had some he was doing T with. He voiced similar thoughts to those Wayne expressed. It may be that they have not had the same experiences we have with it. And I respect them both. He seemed really happy with the job I had done for him on the dogs I put through all Basics, including TT.
> 
> ...


never used the TT on any of mine. I would say they did allright. Fatigue makes a coward out of good men as well as good dogs. thats what i see from the TT. the tank runs out pretty quick.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I used to do a double T a gazillion years ago but now I just do a single T. It's more to teach stopping and casting at a distance for me. Left and right backs along with overs. My T is about 100 yards plus long. My overs are around 50 yards.

Angie


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Angie B said:


> I used to do a double T a gazillion years ago......


 A Lady never tells her age.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> A Lady never tells her age.


I've been training dogs since the age of 2 so what can I say... LOL

I observed Mike Ducross doing something similar to Lynn's diagram plus he added a whole lot more. Also John Cavenaugh had a double, double T that was a a$$ ripper.

I don't have the time or inclenation to do elaborate drills. Drills to me teach the ABC's. The application I provide elsewhere.

Now if I was an amateur that would be different.

Angie


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

I do a 3 leg pattern ( base ball diamond set up as it was called ) or a single t as some would say ...I follow more of a DL pattern than TT and then use a 5 leg patten to refine and get more casting directions...Never did like the idea of sending the dog down the same line more than once...I don't have hot spots and no-go's are very rare...Steve S


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I believe in a "concept" that I feel is both critical, and difficult to comprehend.

It has to do with the definition of trained.

For most people, they define a dog as trained, when it finally gets it right.
I define a dog as trained, when it can't get it wrong.

If you just gloss over that, you will miss the difference.
But, the difference is huge.


If you approach the TT as something that you need to get through, or something that you are done with when the dog "does it", you might as well not bother with it. It will just be an aggravating waste of your time, that will frustrate you, and your dog.

However, if you approach the TT as something that proves that your dog can't get it wrong, that PROVES that it KNOWS what it needs to know coming out of basics, the TT will be invaluable to you.

Maybe you don't need the TT to get those "answers". Maybe you get them somewhere else.
And if so, that's just fine.

But, if you are running the TT, I think that you need to know why.
Otherwise, I feel that there's far better uses of your time.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I believe in a "concept" that I feel is both critical, and difficult to comprehend.
> 
> It has to do with the definition of trained.
> 
> ...


I agree. If a trainer thinks of T work as just a place to teach Go, Stop, Come + Back and Over casts, they're missing a great deal. Single T will provide those things. Double T will provide a well-controlled venue for a great deal more. Use it/don't use it; it's up the trainer's discretion. But the more thorough your Basics, the easier it will be to maintain a high functioning dog over the course of its career.

Evan


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

So other than go, stop, come, change direction, run through a hot spot,(which in all this is the ability to handle pressure) what else are you teaching in the TT.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Below is a portion of an article I wrote on this topic sometime back.

*Double T vs. Single T- only*

The Single T your dog has been running can become your Double T by simply adding a second set of over casts, twenty-five yards deep of the first apex, as the diagram shows.










In the Double Tee your dog will gain many more opportunities to be stopped and cast from multiple apexes, and in alternating sequences (1st & 2nd apexes) to advance his fundamental skills. More opportunities to de-flare will very likely be a co-benefit of this drill.

Teach the new over casts, as you taught the first ones. Walk the dog to apex 2, and identify the over piles as before. There should be little difficulty with this by now. That doesn’t mean that there will be no difficulty when you are handling to these various over piles, though. That’s part of the value of the drill. 

When you begin to handle the dog to the new over piles expect that the dog will try to cast to the piles he used to going to. This is perfectly understandable, and is a result of what is called “suction”; one of the standard diversion concepts your dog will learn to deal with as he progresses through training.. It happens to nearly all of them, and is a great opportunity to advance their training by requiring them to concentrate a little harder on what they are doing. This type of experience keeps your dog mentally challenged, which will help him to stay more alert. Casting accurately in the presence of suction deepens your dog’s commitment to take the cast as given. Just be patient, and simplify as needed.

When this happens, stop the dog with the whistle. Walk out to him and take him back to the apex, where you will repeat the cast while standing closer to him. That is usually enough to explain what is expected. If it isn’t, toss a bumper into the correct pile, and cast the dog – receiving him again at the same casting apex. Return to the (baseline) line with him and send him to the back pile. Send him again, and stop him at apex 2 again, repeating the previously failed cast. Follow this procedure until he understands, and executes the cast at full scale, lining him through to the Back pile two or three times before each stop/cast sequence.

As casting ability from apex 2 improves, begin to mix casts in an alternating sequence, casting from apex 1 and apex 2, including alternating right and left over casts with interspersed right and left-hand back casts. All of this should be done in the usual logical routine of lining the dog to the back pile uninterrupted at least once after being handled. There will be times when it is prudent to line the dog to the back pile several times without handling him. You must read when this is appropriate.

Expect Double T to extend the time you spend on land T work because there is more running for the dog…more work. That will simply require good judgment by the trainer as to when to stop for that session. Great! Come back later. Training should not be hurried, even when you’re a pro with many other dogs to train. If you are an amateur trainer with one or two dogs take advantage of that, and be thorough. What you will end up with is a more fundamentally sound, better trained, and better conditioned dog.

There is more, of course. But this explanation should provide a window into why TT offers training that, logistically, the T cannot.

Evan


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

That is not a very good answer to my question. Basically 6 paragraphs on suction. I can get suction on a single T by lining a side pile, stopping and giving a angle cast to the back pile. At this stage it makes more sense to me because now you are adding another dynamic to training.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> That is not a very good answer to my question. Basically 6 paragraphs on suction. I can get suction on a single T by lining a side pile, stopping and giving a angle cast to the back pile. At this stage it makes more sense to me because now you are adding another dynamic to training.


That's the point. We begin with a thorough Single T, and progress to Double. Suction is only one aspect presented in that progression. The exposure potential for stops and casts are increased exponentially, along with de-flaring (hot spots), de-popping, and all the pressure conditioning aspects the land T work offers - all are expanded upon and more thoroughly trained through in Double T.

Evan


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Evan said:


> I agree. If a trainer thinks of T work as just a place to teach Go, Stop, Come + Back and Over casts, they're missing a great deal. Single T will provide those things. Double T will provide a well-controlled venue for a great deal more. Use it/don't use it; it's up the trainer's discretion. But the more thorough your Basics, the easier it will be to maintain a high functioning dog over the course of its career.
> 
> Evan


I have heard a pro trainer say he never leaves the xx T. T, xxT, Mod. T, Mod xxT. They are all somewhat different but still put in the same catagory. 4 handed casting, 6 and even 8, diversion, drift, flare, suction, used in different places. xx T, Mod xx T, are they basically the same or really different?You can aalways claim another drill is really different and works better or that it really is not a T or Mod T.

Being an amateur trainer, just by calling it the same name but with a modification gives drills the impression they are the same drill but a progression of difficulty. What do you think?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Cary,

Would you mind writing out those terms in longhand? I think I can help, but not sure on a couple of them.

Evan


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

dexdoolittle said:


> So other than go, stop, come, change direction, run through a hot spot,(which in all this is the ability to handle pressure) what else are you teaching in the TT.


 The dog already "knows" to go, stop, come, change direction, and run through a hot spot before starting TT.

The TT puts it all together, and tests the dog's understanding of it.

We already know that the dog can "chew gum". 
But, can it walk and chew gum at the same time?

We don't know yet.

Before the TT, it's easy to get a dog to bug, pop, flare, or no-go. And that's what the TT precipitates.
When the dog is really, and truly "done" with the TT, it's really, really, hard to get the dog to bug, pop, flare, or no-go.

One training philosophy says "Those problems are best avoided."
For that philosophy, it doesn't make sense to run a drill that gets the dog to screw up.

There's another training philosophy, that says "Those are problems, that need to be dealt with."
For that philosophy, it makes perfect sense to run a drill, that gets the dog to screw up. In fact, it's necessary.



I'm not saying that either one is wrong. I just believe in the latter.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

That's the problem I have. NO one has offered any single new aspect that the D TT offers over the single T. All of the aspect you mentioned below if/will/should show up in the single T due to confussion/pressure. All these should be cleaned up long before moving on to the second over pile. So give me one thing new that a dog learns from the second over pile. All you are trying to do is put tools in the box so that when these problem arise and THEY WILL ARISE IN THE FIELD you have a means to deal with them..



Evan said:


> That's the point. We begin with a thorough Single T, and progress to Double. Suction is only one aspect presented in that progression. The exposure potential for stops and casts are increased exponentially, along with de-flaring (hot spots), de-popping, and all the pressure conditioning aspects the land T work offers - all are expanded upon and more thoroughly trained through in Double T.
> 
> Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

There are no magic bullets for dog training. Let's make it simpler.

Thorough Single T = Good training
Thorough Single T + thorough Double T = significantly better training

The results of the two together = a more reliable, efficient dog heading into Transition. It's not the the TT dog can now fry an egg sandwich. There aren't, or shouldn't be extra skill sets thrown into land T work. Land T's are basic drills, and rightly so. But Double T is a next logical step toward a fundamentally sound, solidly, but basically trained dog.

Any of the usual errors dogs make are less likely in a better trained dog. And any of them are more apt to be more readily solvable in a more thoroughly trained dog. 

There are people whose hobby is making watches. That's what they like. A few of them like making stellar time pieces. Just making a watch would not satisfy them. I'm a stellar time piece kind of guy. You can be whatever you like. But, at this point, it's hard to imagine not seeing the difference in expect-able outcomes between Single T alone, and Single T + Double T.

Evan


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Evan said:


> Cary,
> 
> Would you mind writing out those terms in longhand? I think I can help, but not sure on a couple of them.
> 
> Evan


Sorry, typing terrible anyway. Single T, Double T, Modified T, Modified Double T, 4-handed casting, 6-handed casting, 8-handed casting. I hope all else is clear.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

So your telling me that if I only do a Single T and you do the D TT that at 16 months, 2 or 5 some one is going to be able to tell which one did which. Kind of like you point on which came first sit or here. Does it really matter. I would wager that my single T dog will be just as good as your Double T dog, on their first cold blind. It has very little to do with Single vs Double, it has to do with the concepts being taught.



Evan said:


> There are no magic bullets for dog training. Let's make it simpler.
> 
> Thorough Single T = Good training
> Thorough Single T + thorough Double T = significantly better training
> ...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

caryalsobrook said:


> I have heard a pro trainer say he never leaves the Single T, Double T, Modified T, Modified Double T, 4-handed casting, 6-handed casting, 8-handed casting, are they basically the same or really different?


I hope I have everything listed as you desired. As this lays out, I have to say "No". But I should qualify that 'no' by explaining what I think you're inferring. That is that many people use these terms, but have a different mental image of what they are, how they're run, and what is the respective scope and purpose of each. Under those conditions you can't say they are are the same.

Above and beyond that, they aren't the same anyway because you listed basic handling drills mixed together as one category. 8-handed casting is a casting-only drill, like 3-handed casting. Those aren't the same things, but have far more in common than either does to a T drill.

Further, Single & Double T are the most universally known and used, as opposed to so-called 'modified T drills'. You can ask any of 6 trainers what a modified Double T is, and get 6 conflicting answers. For the record, I don't care for any version I've seen of the modified T's.


caryalsobrook said:


> You can always claim another drill is really different and works better or that it really is not a T or Mod T.


Yes, and you make a good point. Exchanging rhetoric about land T's sometimes assumes the drill is being run the same by one trainer as it is by another. We know that's not going to be consistently so, don't we?


caryalsobrook said:


> Being an amateur trainer, just by calling it the same name but with a modification gives drills the impression they are the same drill but a progression of difficulty. What do you think?


I think I'm glad you brought this up. The reason I started this thread was to try to be of help to newer trainers by shedding some light on how differently some trainers see some of the most popular, and most common training exercises. It's interesting, too, that so much passion gets into the discussion sometimes. But dogs are a passionate subject, aren't they?

I can tell you this. I will be happy to spend as much time as anyone would like to spend on a substantive discussion of this, or any training topic, and to provide rationale for what I do and _how_ I do it. Ask anything you like.

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> I would wager that my single T dog will be just as good as your Double T dog, on their first cold blind. It has very little to do with Single vs Double, it has to do with the concepts being taught.


Maybe. But it still misses the real point. Of course this metaphoric proposal assumes each dog would be the equal of the other in all other ways, so all we would be comparing is the outcome of Single T - only vs. Single T + Double T as they influence the running of both dog's first cold blinds. There are many other deficits in the example given. But all such rhetoric continues to miss the point.

Considering the work any dog may be reasonably expected to do in the way of blind work following land T, the more fundamentally sound that dog is, the fewer problems the trainer may logically expect, and the more easily that trainer may expect those problems to be solved.

Unlike some trainers, I don't take dogs right from land T work and go run cold blinds. To each his/her own. That goes for T vs. TT. I like the little quote from Dr. Stephen R. Covey that says "The truth does not cease to exist because it is ignored." It comes to mind now and then.

Evan


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

I would dare say that the top producing trainers, the ones that produce the top competitors, never do the TT. That time could be spent on more productive drills or marking time. The wagon wheel drill is one that i fell that most am's tend to slack on.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Evan said:


> There are no magic bullets for dog training. Let's make it simpler.
> 
> Thorough Single T = Good training
> Thorough Single T + thorough Double T = significantly better training
> ...


One would think that past experience would have taught you to stick to less than subtle advertising pitches without actually making overt comparisons to some of the many trainers who have actually had considerable success in the competitive arena.

Apparently not. Once again it appears you have let your ego overpower your recollection of objective facts.
You make aN ANALOGY BETWEEN WATCH MAKING AND DOG TRAINING. In that analogy there is an implicit suggestion that you are a true craftsman and artist who & produces nothing but the finest ......."IM A STELLAR TIME PIECE KIND OF GUY"

Your unstated implication is that Dex Doolittle{and others who dont fall into lock step compliance with your way} are sloppy, lazy trainers who are satisfied with turning out inferior products.

Unfortunately for you there are many of us on here that have seen the results of your "STELLAR TIME PIECE KIND OF GUY" methods and Dex's and others "less than stellar" methods. From my experience of witnessing Dex's dog pupils and yours I would side with Dex's results.
Additionally for those who haven't personally seen & compared dogs trained by Dex and you there are objective sources such as "Callbacks", Retriever Results & EE to use and compare. Even though Mr Doolittle's time in the game is not nearly as long as yours his objective accomplishments dwarf yours in all respects

There are many ways to get to a "STELLAR" level and yours is definitely not the only or most successful way


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> The results of the two together = a more reliable, efficient dog heading into Transition. It's not the the TT dog can now fry an egg sandwich. There aren't, or shouldn't be extra skill sets thrown into land T work. Land T's are basic drills, and rightly so. But Double T is a next logical step toward a fundamentally sound, solidly, but basically trained dog


I think one would be significantly ahead of the game if they introduce other skill sets on the T pattern,, poison bird concept,,,diversion bird concept in particular,,,go as sent,,,,
and I see the same impotent inefficiency with a regular double T as others,, since no one has talked about angled backs to separate piles,,, 
I can see a double T important if the 2 apex's are farther apart,,then you can incorporate left and right angle 45 backs,,,,
I also believe many of these drills were designed for people owning only a few dogs.
Pete


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

As someone who doesn't use the collar, I'm curious about how collar users correct the dog in this drill. It seems that if you have forced to pile that any collar stimulation during the T would tell the dog to dig in and get to that pile. 

If you get a whistle stop refusal or a wrong cast from the center line, what do you do? If you nick or burn, doesn't the dog remember the force to pile and think you're trying to get him to go back?

Is it that you don't use collar correction during T work, you just have to move up and simplify as mentioned earlier?


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Pete said:


> I think one would be significantly ahead of the game if they introduce other skill sets on the T pattern,, poison bird concept,,,diversion bird concept in particular,,,go as sent,,,,
> and I see the same impotent inefficiency with a regular double T as others,, since no one has talked about angled backs to separate piles,,,
> I can see a double T important if the 2 apex's are farther apart,,then you can incorporate left and right angle 45 backs,,,,
> I also believe many of these drills were designed for people owning only a few dogs.
> Pete


One can open a big can of worms when you start tring to do angled backs while teaching the TT or T. Confussion in this drills can ruin or set a dog back for months.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> As someone who doesn't use the collar, I'm curious about how collar users correct the dog in this drill. It seems that if you have forced to pile that any collar stimulation during the T would tell the dog to dig in and get to that pile.
> 
> If you get a whistle stop refusal or a wrong cast from the center line, what do you do? If you nick or burn, doesn't the dog remember the force to pile and think you're trying to get him to go back?
> 
> Is it that you don't use collar correction during T work, you just have to move up and simplify as mentioned earlier?


Excellent, you will do well with your attitude, keep it simple.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I do what I call a YT drill after single T. I see no reason to do 2 over piles and do not dwell much on over piles period.I send to angle back piles at the second apex. I like a second apex so that the dog is not stopping at the same place everytime and to me angle backs are much more important than overs. My angle back piles are deeper than the straight back pile. I dont spend much time at all here. It's just to get the dog used to going farther to the back pile and taking cast and stopping on the whistle at a distance.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Jennifer Henion said:


> .....Is it that you don't use collar correction during T work, you just have to move up and simplify as mentioned earlier?


You have to be very careful about what you are "saying" to the dog with the collar during all of your pile work.
That often means that you don't push the button, even though the dog did something that certainly "deserved it".

And there's LOTS of ways to simplify during the TT.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

why not move on to pattern blinds than hanging on to the TT. My experience has always been all the angles, change of directions and going where sent improve with attrition.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> One can open a big can of worms when you start tring to do angled backs while teaching the TT or T. Confussion in this drills can ruin or set a dog back for months.


I think any drill someone does incorrectly is capable of that. The drill needs to be broken down first to teach,,,then put together,,,no different than force to pile sit to pile,,,and then the single T. I don't start force to pile with the side piles out. Eliminate confusion,,,and build,,, but not so slow that it negates the drill.
This drill will also make the handler think a little deeper and pay attention to what he is doing and what is going on in the dogs head. Then counter it if need be.
But may be its not good for many,,, may be it is a poor judgement to recommend,,, I don't know,,but I'll do it with every dog that hangs around long enough. I get a lot out of it and it sames me time down the road.. 

Pete


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

kip said:


> why not move on to pattern blinds than hanging on to the TT. My experience has always been all the angles, change of directions and going where sent improve with attrition.


I don't think that a dog learns much about handling, from the TT.
No matter how long you stay on it, or how thorough you are.

But, the TT brings out the dog's natural and often problematic reactions to the stresses, pressures, and situations that WILL occur during pattern blinds, and early cold blinds.

If I can fix them during the TT, I don't need to worry about them when the dog is supposed to be learning how to handle in the field.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> I don't think that a dog learns much about handling, from the TT.
> No matter how long you stay on it, or how thorough you are.
> 
> But, the TT brings out the dog's natural and often problematic reactions to the stresses, pressures, and situations that WILL occur during pattern blinds, and early cold blinds.
> ...


Really, he learns to go, stop and cast. the three most important parts to handling. the T or TT is no fun to a dog, i feel the sooner you can move on the better, attitude is everything in a good blind dog,


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I agree with Kip and your first statement basically sums it up. We are not teaching handling. You are teaching go, stop, cast. No reason to get bogged down in boredom. Once you feel the dog has grasped what is being asked move on.



kip said:


> Really, he learns to go, stop and cast. the three most important parts to handling. the T or TT is no fun to a dog, i feel the sooner you can move on the better, attitude is everything in a good blind dog,


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> I don't think that a dog learns much about handling, from the TT.
> No matter how long you stay on it, or how thorough you are.
> 
> But, the TT brings out the dog's natural and often problematic reactions to the stresses, pressures, and situations that WILL occur during pattern blinds, and early cold blinds.
> ...


You point out a problem that I have(had) with a young dog. When i started sending her from my side, a terribble avoidence problem was evident. With the key of "dead bird" she would look away or even turn her head sharply in front of me. No correction used on drill was word "no" and sit her at the place where she had made a mistake. She is much better now as she gains confidence. I hope you are right about how she will deal with blinds later as the result of patience here. Thanks.

On a side note, I guess I am too dumb to see where anyone has belittled anyone's training technique. I only see those that truly are trying to contribute to the discussion. It would be nice FOR ONE TIME, to take personal insults SOMEWHERE ELSE, maybe PM"s would be a better place. If you have nothing CONSTRUCTIVE to say, the how about shutting up and let those who enjoy the discussion enjoy it.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

kip said:


> Really, he learns to go, stop and cast. the three most important parts to handling. the T or TT is no fun to a dog, i feel the sooner you can move on the better, attitude is everything in a good blind dog,


He learns to go, stop, and sort of cast.

It's not really casting. 
He knows where the piles are, and he is just responding to your indication of which one to go to.

Learning to really take a cast, is on the very limits of a dog's ability to reason. 
It's a tough concept for them to grasp.

If you add having to deal with bugging, popping, flaring, and no-going to that lesson, you have made what is already tough, a whole lot tougher.

Obviously, you can simplify, and avoid having that stuff happen.
We all have to simplify sometimes.

But, there is a point that you can't simplify it any simpler.
And, we ALL make mistakes during training.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

dexdoolittle said:


> I agree with Kip and your first statement basically sums it up. We are not teaching handling. You are teaching go, stop, cast. No reason to get bogged down in boredom. Once you feel the dog has grasped what is being asked move on.


I love your last sentence. If I may emphasize slightly. "once YOU FEEL the dog has grasped what YOU are asking then move on." Changed it slightly. Hope you don't mind. When you move on would be a subjective think, don't you agree?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> I agree with Kip and your first statement basically sums it up. We are not teaching handling. You are teaching go, stop, cast. No reason to get bogged down in boredom. Once you feel the dog has grasped what is being asked move on.


That's really what I was inquiring about earlier. What are your goals for land T work? Based on your objectives, I agree that for you TT is wasted time. But I hope if you can't relate to the way I've stated my case that you'll read copterdoc's posts. He has been right on the money about this. 

Evan


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Evan said:


> That's really what I was inquiring about earlier. What are your goals for land T work? Based on your objectives, I agree that for you TT is wasted time. But I hope if you can't relate to the way I've stated my case that you'll read copterdoc's posts. He has been right on the money about this.
> 
> Evan


my only concern is the average new trainer tring to train their dog. the t is much easier for a dog and a trainer to understand. the TT could and will cause more issues for a dog and trainer to overcome. Dex's record of producing great dogs can not be denied.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I used to make every dog go through double T work. Over the years i've backed off on that and only do double T with dogs if I believe it will help them with something along the lines of control. Some dogs really don't do well with the constant drilling and it hurts momentum and attitude. I also find that spending too much time making a dog takes overs, detracts from the ultimate goal of turning and heading back. If I have a dog that seems to have problems taking overs then I may do some drills later to help build that skill, however I bought into the thought process that if I have to give big overs, I haven't done my job keeping him online to begin with. 

/Paul


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> He learns to go, stop, and sort of cast.
> 
> It's not really casting.
> He knows where the piles are, and he is just responding to your indication of which one to go to.
> ...


so why the TT over the T, all of the above are addressed with less stress on the dog.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm not going to go back a re-read every word but I would dis agree. If I remember correctly I asked a simple question. "What single aspect in training is gained in the D TT, that can not be taught or learned in a T". Then you went to making watches and ones end result is good the other being better. I agree with everything that copterdoc has stated. It is just that I feel all these issues are going to irrupt in a single T and will be dealt with there. You can not move on to the TT unless you have taught a dog to deal w the Flares, NO Goes, Popping. So If I have taught him how to deal with these issues in the T, then why do I need to bogg down in the TT. If I have taught a dog to deal with its fears can't I move on to less complicated(mentally) work and get better and bigger results.



Evan said:


> That's really what I was inquiring about earlier. What are your goals for land T work? Based on your objectives, I agree that for you TT is wasted time. But I hope if you can't relate to the way I've stated my case that you'll read copterdoc's posts. He has been right on the money about this.
> 
> Evan


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Steve Shaver said:


> View attachment 10433
> I do what I call a YT drill after single T. I see no reason to do 2 over piles and do not dwell much on over piles period.I send to angle back piles at the second apex. I like a second apex so that the dog is not stopping at the same place everytime and to me angle backs are much more important than overs. My angle back piles are deeper than the straight back pile. I dont spend much time at all here. It's just to get the dog used to going farther to the back pile and taking cast and stopping on the whistle at a distance.


Interesting... drill. ^^^^

Gundog, Although very green in comparison to you ,That is something that always puzzled me...why keep sending the dog 90 degrees over when it is a cast that is seldom used,but with ready this thread it seems that the TT isnt just about casting ,but contol and working out any problems before going to the field.Which also makes since to me. 

GD would you incorporate a drill like Steve Shaver describes instead of TT to get both ,turning and heading back (which is what most cast boil down to in the field ) and also the control of teaching over's in the same drill? It seems you could get your go,stop,come (mechanics) and angle casting all in 1 drill. 

Interesting thread  lots to learn


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

kip said:


> my only concern is the average new trainer tring to train their dog. the t is much easier for a dog and a trainer to understand. the TT could and will cause more issues for a dog and trainer to overcome. Dex's record of producing great dogs can not be denied.


This is my concern: causing popping and confusion over whistle stopping. There is some amount of precision and timing needed in both dog and handler to get the distinction between the first and second apex, unless you separate the two by quite a lot of distance. I see that that could be a nice opportunity to teach precision and quick stops OR a risk that you ingrain popping and confusion and reluctance to stop crisply if you are a new trainer, like myself.

So for you who do not use TT, but only single T, do you find that single T is sufficient when it comes to moving on to pattern blinds and blind drills? Or do you add in other exercises between those two? I am going off the Lardy flow chart and DVDs. He goes from TT to "Disciplined casting" (can't remember if that's a drill or not) to pattern blinds. Is that how you would do it, but just with single T?


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> This is my concern: causing popping and confusion over whistle stopping. There is some amount of precision and timing needed in both dog and handler to get the distinction between the first and second apex, unless you separate the two by quite a lot of distance. I see that that could be a nice opportunity to teach precision and quick stops OR a risk that you ingrain popping and confusion and reluctance to stop crisply if you are a new trainer, like myself.
> 
> So for you who do not use TT, but only single T, do you find that single T is sufficient when it comes to moving on to pattern blinds and blind drills? Or do you add in other exercises between those two? I am going off the Lardy flow chart and DVDs. He goes from TT to "Disciplined casting" (can't remember if that's a drill or not) to pattern blinds. Is that how you would do it, but just with single T?


its a breeze.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

kip said:


> my only concern is the average new trainer tring to train their dog. the t is much easier for a dog and a trainer to understand. the TT could and will cause more issues for a dog and trainer to overcome. Dex's record of producing great dogs can not be denied.


I think that the experienced trainers, are going to succeed regardless of whether or not they do the TT.

Inexperienced trainers can fail at any point in the dog's progression. 
Eventually, they hit a wall that they can't climb over.

Often, that happens during the TT. 
But, it wasn't the TT that caused the wheels to fall off the bus.

It was all the lug nuts, that they didn't get tight enough beforehand.

Yeah, they could skip it, and move on. 

They will certainly get into some of the "big dog" stuff, before the wheels fall off. 
But, the wheels are still going to fall off.

If the trainer knows how to tighten all the lug nuts, the wheels are going to stay on. They might not need to drive down a rough road, in order to know that the wheels are installed right.

But, if they don't know, it's a pretty good idea to make sure. Especially when they can pick the road that it happens on, and where they have access to a jack.


That's what's so great about the TT. 
It's so easy to change things to simplify it, without removing the concepts that the dog needs to learn from it.

It's no fun to wreck your train. 
But, it's a whole lot better to wreck your train in a place that makes it easy to get it back on the tracks.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

My train wrecks on the "single T" have produced some really good dogs, really good. just saying


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEmy only concern is the average new trainer tring to train their dog. the t is much easier for a dog and a trainer to understand. the TT could and will cause more issues for a dog and trainer to overcome. Dex's record of producing great dogs can not be denied.][/QUOTE]

That is a very important point. New people need to learn the basic things. DT or MDT can pose a problem that because of their lack of understanding ,,,, and a lack of dog reading skills will cause issues.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Pete said:


> .... New people need to learn the basic things. DT or MDT can pose a problem that because of their lack of understanding ,,,, and a lack of dog reading skills will cause issues.


I do not believe that the TT causes problems.
It exposes them.

And, it's a wonderful learning opportunity. Not only for the dog, but also the trainer.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

its no use, its like who is better alabama or the irish, who is the winner is what matters.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally Posted by *kip*
> _why not move on to pattern blinds than hanging on to the TT. My expe
> 
> 
> ...





copterdoc said:


> I don't think that a dog learns much about handling, from the TT.
> No matter how long you stay on it, or how thorough you are.
> 
> But, the TT brings out the dog's natural and often problematic reactions to the stresses, pressures, and situations that WILL occur during pattern blinds, and early cold blinds.
> ...


Kip and Dex, Copterdoc has pretty much summed up why I do the double T. I feel that's where I make the retriever. Where the pup takes what he's learned in force fetch and force to a pile and puts it together. He learns about pressure and the bugging, popping and no goes that it brings. He learns that avoidance is not an option but he *must *go. He has to deal with the confusion of suction and flaring of multiple piles. To my mind having two side piles on each side of the line adds to the mental burden the pup has to master.

Dex and Kip, you guys make finished retrievers. In your programs where do you instill the compulsion that the dog has to obey on blinds and avoidance is not an option?

I like the double T for the reasons Evan and Copterdoc and I have stated. To say that the double T is the only way to instill a sense of compulsion to the dog that he has to go and is the only way to teach blinds is not true. You two are proof that there are other methods. 

I feel that in the later stages of the double T, when you are sending the dog 17 to 20 some times, handling him over the field both with and without a bumper in his mouth, you have made a retriever with the tools to go on to more advanced training. Where do you two feel that you have instilled the tools into the pup to go into advanced training?

In the double T there is definitely some boredom and drudgery that comes into play after 3 weeks of working at it with another week of run byes to go. But the dog does learn he must go. You two instill this obligation in your dogs somewhere. Where do you feel it comes? 

I really love it when the TT is near the end and the pup lets you know he's "got it." They're certainly not a finished dog by any means but there are some WOW moments about then.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

how are you doing howard? its a program, you understand that. the t is a small part of the program, i didnt make over twenty field champoins by harping on the t or tt. its heeling drills, no no dirls, wagonwheel drills, the old jack mcfall lining drills and on and on. its a program. the forcing and the t is the beginning, get it and move on. i have seen the results of internet training cause, i have fixed it for a few. just saying,


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

jack woodland that is.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

jack and roy, boy thats another story in its self.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

Howard, just a question, how do you know 17-20 is enough. Why not more. It is not about being perfect. It is about teaching tools that will help you later deal with problems that arise in the field. I think what I and others have tried to say that all these issues that the TT should reveal, should have been revealed in the T. If they were not, then you were not thorough enough in the single T. Just my experience, after working out all the kinks in the T, I can't recall ever trying the TT and seeing the same problems crop up, i.e. no going,bugging,or flaring. I might have gotten a mis cast or a pop, but that is not that big a deal. I have seen 7 yr old FC's pop. It has already been stated that we are not really teaching handling, so why harp on a mis cast here. There is no drill that gets you to the end game. It is just like Kip said it is a program. It takes all aspects to finish the game.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Howard, just a question, how do you know 17-20 is enough.


'Cause my milk crate will hold 16 full size bumpers and I usually have one or two laying around in the truck.  Two for each side pile and 9 or 10 for the long pile. Sometimes I have to rebird a pile or two.

Actually, that makes about a 15 to 20 minute session and that's enough TT for one day. What they don't get today they'll get tomorrow, or next week or who knows? Training is an ongoing process.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> This is my concern: causing popping and confusion over whistle stopping...


I will go so far as to say that no drill causes popping. Poor application of training, confusion, incomplete progression, insufficient pressure conditioning, and more can cause it. But neither the Single T nor the Double T cause popping.


Jennifer Henion said:


> So for you who do not use TT, but only single T, do you find that single T is sufficient when it comes to moving on to pattern blinds and blind drills?


Whether or not it is sufficient is determined by what the trainers goals and objectives are for what they do, along with the quality of how they apply the training. It should be pointed out again that the results a trainer with 20-30 years of experience usually gets from what they do are not a fair reflection of what a new trainer can expect to get.


Jennifer Henion said:


> Or do you add in other exercises between those two?


Even that varies according to how the trainer uses those tools. For example, some trainers start with pattern blinds 100 yards or longer. Some start much shorter and build distance. That variation alone will tend to produce different results with the same dogs.


Jennifer Henion said:


> I am going off the Lardy flow chart and DVDs. He goes from TT to "Disciplined casting" (can't remember if that's a drill or not) to pattern blinds. Is that how you would do it, but just with single T?


Disciplined casting is a skill within the TT, and is what we called "run-by" for many years before it was called "disciplined casting". It's just a controlled return on land.

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Shawn White said:


> Interesting... drill. ^^^^
> 
> Gundog, Although very green in comparison to you ,That is something that always puzzled me...why keep sending the dog 90 degrees over when it is a cast that is seldom used,but with ready this thread it seems that the TT isnt just about casting ,but contol and working out any problems before going to the field.Which also makes since to me.
> 
> ...


I don't specifically do a drill as mentioned, however slightly changing direction for an angle back does come as the dog matures and gets into advanced blind running skills. I will say that part of my own progression towards not always doing double T came as I grew as a trainer and with better ability to read dogs and sense what they need. Following a strict flowchart program was more important because frankly I didn't have experience, knowledge or even common sense with my early dogs. To succeed I needed to follow these closer and go through every step twice because it was the only way I could ensure the dog got what they needed. I do tell my young clients that they should do it, both for the dogs and themselves so they both learn. Fact is, double TT mostly can't hurt anything as long as you're conscious of the dogs attitude. Keep it fun, keep something in it for them and all is good.

/Paul


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Evan, my dog and I are going through the double T right now....only one day of teaching the new overs and religning the back pile with them in place actually. Question is tomorrow I plan on starting a session....how should I go about doing it?....run the back then alternate my Stops of course, but what is a typical starting session like for you? What's a advanced session consist of?....I know your not a formula man but but any advice will help......thanks for the thread, definitelyright on time.....thanks to everybody for that matter!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Starting to run that session will be much like your previous ones mechanically. Identify the Back pile and run it from the new apex. Sit the dog there and re-identify the new Overs. Yes, I know you've done this, but set your dog up to succeed. Bring him back to the first apex and line the back pile several times. Then send, stop and cast - going through some simple alternating of Back's & Over's. 

Then back up to your start point (line), and do a few simple handling reps as before - stopping and casting from the second apex. That may be all you need to do in that session depending on how it all goes. This isn't a race. Make sure he's clear that going, stopping, and casting at the second (new) apex is done just like he was doing at the first apex. Within the next session or two you should easily begin to combine handling sequences alternating apexes. Questions?

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> I'm not going to go back a re-read every word but I would dis agree. If I remember correctly I asked a simple question. "What single aspect in training is gained in the D TT, that can not be taught or learned in a T".


And that continues to miss the point. It's not some special bell or whistle found in TT that makes it valuable. It's greater thoroughness, and a subsequent product that is more reliable and stable. Do it/don't do it. I don't care. I'm just attempting to clarify why I do it, why Carr reliably taught it, and why a majority of successful trainers for 4 decades have used it.


dexdoolittle said:


> I agree with everything that copterdoc has stated.


???


dexdoolittle said:


> It is just that I feel all these issues are going to irrupt in a single T and will be dealt with there. You can not move on to the TT unless you have taught a dog to deal w the Flares, NO Goes, Popping. So If I have taught him how to deal with these issues in the T, then *why do I need to bogg down in the TT*.


If a trainer gets a dog bogged down in those essential areas by training with a Double T he or she is doing it wrong. Any training inappropriately applied will produce poor results. 

Evan


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Evan, i think you are missing the point of what mark and i where trying to explain, keep it simple, i know you have written a great book and your program has a devoted group of believers. we just believe in simple, some new trainers have never had to read a dog other than the one they have, dave smith had a great saying about dog training videos and flow charts and all of that jargan and it wasnt good. our approach is to not open doors to dark rooms. attitude is everything i believe in makeing a field champion, it is the same to me in a hunting dog or hunt test dog. just saying.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

by the way do you explain in your videos on what to do when one gets bogged down, when a dog starts to freeze, spin, or bite the sh!t out of you?


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

thats not fair, i should watch yours before i open my mouth, sorry.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

kip said:


> Evan, i think you are missing the point of what mark and i where trying to explain, keep it simple,


I agree with simplicity, Kip, and I think it's a very sound point. In fact, it's a point I struggled with for a long time before deciding to write a book, or make any videos. Several people asked Rex (when I was there years ago) why he had never published the book he'd been writing over a long period. Basically, he said "I'm afraid of what they'll do with it, and attach my name to it! Look around you; look what some of them are doing, and they're right here with me!" It's not something to take lightly when you put your ideas out there for people to take license with, to criticize, to abuse, or perhaps just misunderstand and/or mis-apply.

But you would like the quip he made one day while a client was getting bound up in perfection with a dog, and screwing him down during a 32 bumper tune up drill. He said, "I'd like to have two T-shirts made, and hand them out as people come on the property. One would say 'Learn not to burn'. The other would just have one word; 'Simplify'. I hear what you're saying.


kip said:


> i know you have written a great book and your program has a devoted group of believers. we just believe in simple, some new trainers have never had to read a dog other than the one they have, dave smith had a great saying about dog training videos and flow charts and all of that jargan and it wasnt good. our approach is to not open doors to dark rooms.


I've tried to use my Flow Chart as a simple guide for newer trainers to keep them on track. I've also tried to encourage them to slow down, take their time, and to be thorough; step by step. I especially think for someone who does not have experience with reading dogs, and adapting the training to each one, that being more thorough is a real help. I know I only have just so much control over what the reader/viewer will actually do. But I try to help them as best I can for the sake of the dogs.


kip said:


> attitude is everything i believe in makeing a field champion, it is the same to me in a hunting dog or hunt test dog. just saying.


I think you're absolutely right about that. I also think that someone with the volume of experience you have had would be successful with nearly any method. I'm sure you are also discriminating about the quality of dog you choose to expend your time and resources on. Wise, experienced people do that. But, _boy_, do I remember being new at this! I wish someone back then had laid out a detailed program for me to learn and follow. I appreciate your input, and your advice.

Evan


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

The point that I have tried to make is that you can accomplish that same amout of thoroughness with the single T. I just don't understand why do what you advised acemedic to do. You are basically starting over with a single T when you start at the orginal apex. What are you gaining by these steps. Then you eventually back up.. To me you are wasting trainging on trivial stuff. By the time a dog gets to this point, he should have had the bugs worked out. Most people who don't do the TT feel that your time is better spent moving on.



Evan said:


> And that continues to miss the point. It's not some special bell or whistle found in TT that makes it valuable. It's greater thoroughness, and a subsequent product that is more reliable and stable. Do it/don't do it. I don't care. I'm just attempting to clarify why I do it, why Carr reliably taught it, and why a majority of successful trainers for 4 decades have used it.??? If a trainer gets a dog bogged down in those essential areas by training with a Double T he or she is doing it wrong. Any training inappropriately applied will produce poor results.
> 
> Evan


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Thanks for the quick reply...we ran it today like you said and had a few troubles but nothing unexpected. Got my first pop today so i went back to lining that back pile more...It was cool to see first hand just how much suction those overs can be. Ill keep y'all posted on the progress for sure, thanks again.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

acemedic1 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply...we ran it today like you said and had a few troubles but nothing unexpected. Got my first pop today so i went back to lining that back pile more...It was cool to see first hand just how much suction those overs can be. Ill keep y'all posted on the progress for sure, thanks again.


pop=confusion, mine and dex's point exactly, whats next, bugging, no going. what ever happened to wagon wheel to teach go where sent.


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

kip said:


> pop=confusion, mine and dex's point exactly, whats next, bugging, no going. what ever happened to wagon wheel to teach go where sent.


I agree....but it was my fault not the dogs....his confusion came from me being too confident in him generalizing this drill . This is my first time training at this level and im learning more than the dog haha. Ill step back and clear things up, like i have in the past...like i said it was his first pop...after six weeks on T work. i don't think I've created a bugging, popping, confused yard dog but i may be wrong....thanks for your input though


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

kip said:


> pop=confusion, mine and dex's point exactly, whats next, bugging, no going. what ever happened to wagon wheel to teach go where sent.


And that's the point copterdoc and I have been making relative to the Double T. One philosophy dictates that you avoid confusion, popping, no-going, etc. The one to which we subscribe dictates that you should welcome any and all of those things in your T work so can easily train through them - then and there. You'll rarely be in a better controlled environment to extend this pressure conditioning treatment that will result in a more stable dog. My dogs consistently come out of Double T with great attitudes, high confidence, and sureness of just what is expected of them. 

As you know, pressure is what the dog percieves. What matters is whether the dog's expectations of pressure cause him to bug or no-go, or whether he's been well conditioned to work through pressure constructively by carrying out his tasks under command. I believe the logistics of Doube T provide an ideal vehicle to form that stable attitude.

Evan


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't do a lot of dogs. Just mine and I help with some friends dogs. I find that the double T shows me where we need work. I get to deal with sloppy sits, bugging, shopping the pile, no go's, autocasts, popping, and my bad handling and my whistle timing, you name it they will show it to you. I guess you can do the same thing with single T, but I get better results with the extra piles out there giving them (and me) more to think about. It also makes swimby go better I think.

Edit: I went back and read the whole thing. It seems that pros are less likely to have time for TT and Am's are more likely to use it. It also seems like you can do it either way.

We were on single T for a week then TT for about 2 weeks every day 5-6 days a week. so 10-12 sessions if I remember correctly. We worked through popping, flaring, and sloppy sits. The casts were the easy part.

I learned a lot. You have to be extremely judicious about the collar. I have a better dog because I saw quickly what too much juice was doing to his blinds on the TT. I wouldn't try to tell you what to do, but it sure was good for me.


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

So if you start the TT like everybody says to start it with just the single T, do you not get the below problems with it. I have never said that TT was not invaluable. I have just always asked what was gained by the second pile. I have had this discussion with many, many more experienced than me. I just have never gotten a concise enough reason to warrant the extra time.



Leddyman said:


> I don't do a lot of dogs. Just mine and I help with some friends dogs. I find that the double T shows me where we need work. I get to deal with *sloppy* *sits, bugging, shopping the pile, no go's, autocasts, popping, and my bad handling and my whistle timing*, you name it they will show it to you. I guess you can do the same thing with single T, but I get better results with the extra piles out there giving them (and me) more to think about. It also makes swimby go better I think.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

dexdoolittle said:


> So if you start the TT like everybody says to start it with just the single T, do you not get the below problems with it. I have never said that TT was not invaluable. I have just always asked what was gained by the second pile. I have had this discussion with many, many more experienced than me. I just have never gotten a concise enough reason to warrant the extra time.


I was editing my post while you were posting this. You could probably come out the same in the end. It was good for me.

But the main reason is: Wait for it: .........................*It was in the Lardy videos and so I had to do it.*


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> I agree with simplicity, Kip, and I think it's a very sound point. In fact, it's a point I struggled with for a long time before deciding to write a book, or make any videos. Several people asked Rex (when I was there years ago) why he had never published the book he'd been writing over a long period. Basically, he said "I'm afraid of what they'll do with it, and attach my name to it! Look around you; look what some of them are doing, and they're right here with me!" It's not something to take lightly when you put your ideas out there for people to take license with, to criticize, to abuse, or perhaps just misunderstand and/or mis-apply.
> Evan


Exactly why you can't learn to train dogs from books and videos....

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Exactly why you can't learn to train dogs from books and videos....
> 
> /Paul


Many people can and do learn to train dogs from books and videos all the time. They have for decades. Other ways also help. There are a number of ways to learn to train dogs. 

Evan


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Leddyman said:


> I was editing my post while you were posting this. You could probably come out the same in the end. It was good for me.
> 
> But the main reason is: Wait for it: .........................*It was in the Lardy videos and so I had to do it.*


LMAO!!! exactly, i would love to know the last time mike put a dog threw the yard. liberial #$%^&&&^%%^&*@@. good dog trainer though


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Kip, at what point in the dog's progression would one start wagon wheel in your estimation?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Many people can and do learn to train dogs from books and videos all the time. They have for decades. Other ways also help. There are a number of ways to learn to train dogs.
> 
> Evan


Guess it depends on your definition of "trained"

/Paul


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

Now that is funny.. Bout the same time as.......


kip said:


> LMAO!!! exactly, i would love to know the last time mike put a dog threw the yard. liberial #$%^&&&^%%^&*@@. good dog trainer though


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Kip, at what point in the dog's progression would one start wagon wheel in your estimation?


Jen, you picked a good person to ask. He is probably too modest to admit it but Kip has quite the reputation as a golden specialist.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Becky Mills said:


> Jen, you picked a good person to ask. He is probably too modest to admit it but Kip has quite the reputation as a golden specialist.



Oh, good to know, Becky! Thanks - somehow, I just had the feeling! Next on my list is to email you!


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Becky Mills said:


> Jen, you picked a good person to ask. He is probably too modest to admit it but Kip has quite the reputation as a golden specialist.


In some circles, Kip is known as the "Golden Guru"


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Becky Mills said:


> Jen, you picked a good person to ask. He is probably too modest to admit it but Kip has quite the reputation as a golden specialist.


becky why dont you get me a good golden pup and i will ......... be a golden person.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

All joking aside, based on your track record I bet you could put letters in front a golden's name, too.
And come to think of it, the best I remember there is an outstanding golden breeding coming up in your neck of the woods. Like an FC AFC bred to an FC AFC.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

kip said:


> becky why dont you get me a good golden pup and i will ......... be a golden person.


Oh Kippy, if I even thought you were serious I can assure you there's several of us that would buy you one! I'd love to see you standing beside a fluffy, both of you wearing matching bandanas of course!!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Oh Becky, leadin me down the garden path...


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

FWIW:
I have trained a couple of dogs that are now on Danny Farmer's truck and both were trained through the Double T.
I texted him and asked if he does the Single T, Double T, or neither. He said both.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Watchm said:


> FWIW:
> I have trained a couple of dogs that are now on Danny Farmer's truck and both were trained through the Double T.
> I texted him and asked if he does the Single T, Double T, or neither. He said both.


 At least he didn't say "yes"!

Here's an interesting read.
http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfar...es/Starting Cold Blinds by Danny Farmer_1.pdf


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> At least he didn't say "yes"!
> 
> Here's an interesting read.
> http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfarmer.com/Training_Tips_files/Starting%20Cold%20Blinds%20by%20Danny%20Farmer_1.pdf


Very good information there!!!

Gooser


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> At least he didn't say "yes"!
> 
> Here's an interesting read.
> http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfar...es/Starting Cold Blinds by Danny Farmer_1.pdf


he transitions into cold blinds just like Joe Overby has taught me to do it and it works really good just building initial momentum.and the info and instruction on that is good. but he doesnt tell why he does TT. we do T, wagon wheel, and start running cold blinds in the same manner.


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## russhardy (Jan 8, 2012)

This thread just got more interesting. 

After the TT there seems to be a divergence on how to go from the yard to teaching cold blinds. I'm sure the folks that just do the T and don't do the TT are faced with the same decision on what is next:

1) Teach the dog to handle next as the article that Copterdoc provided describes
2) Teach the dog to take a line next through the use of pattern and walk out blinds

Maybe my characterization of these two different approaches is too general but it's how I understand them now. And while I understand there are many ways to skin a bear, this seems to be a significant difference on what is more important when teaching cold blinds 1) handling or 2) lining.

Obviously both approaches work with the right trainers. But I'm curious if folks here have done it both ways and why they prefer one approach over another.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

russhardy said:


> This thread just got more interesting.
> 
> After the TT there seems to be a divergence on how to go from the yard to teaching cold blinds. I'm sure the folks that just do the T and don't do the TT are faced with the same decision on what is next:
> 
> ...


 Pattern blinds do teach the dog how to handle.

The problem is, that they also teach the dog to return to the place that it previously found a bumper. 
So, staying on pattern blinds too long, can actually do more harm than good.

I want the dog to succeed, and I will simplify enough that it can. 
But, I want to make sure that my simplifying, isn't removing the very thing that I need the dog to learn.

The dog needs to learn to follow my cast, in order to get the bumper. If it learns that, it has learned what I want it to.
It does not need to learn that it will find another bumper where it previously found one. If it learns that, it has learned what I don't want it to.

I don't want to have to untrain something later, if I can avoid it.

Pattern blinds are the stepping stone, that takes the dog from the yard and all of it's piles of bumpers, and transitions that into field work.
If I didn't need them, I wouldn't do them. So, I leave them as soon as I possibly can.

And I never run sight blinds. I don't want the dog to become conditioned to run to white things that it sees in the field.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

kip said:


> Excellent, you will do well with your attitude, keep it simple.


Yes that is the best way!!!


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

russhardy said:


> This thread just got more interesting.
> 
> After the TT there seems to be a divergence on how to go from the yard to teaching cold blinds. I'm sure the folks that just do the T and don't do the TT are faced with the same decision on what is next:
> 
> ...



I want both in the end ...but ...I believe casting is more important than lining...As the dog learns to cast and carry the cast for longer distances the lining starts to come into place....I follow more of the Danny Farmer approach to what happens after the swim by....cold blinds ...Mine aren't as long but cold in nature ...As long as you are using pattern blinds the dog isn't learning how to handle ( run ) cold stuff ...It takes courage to over come the unknown out there and just take off...Courage is developed by doing it...Patience is required on the handlers part to help the dog through the learning phase...Steve S


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> And I never run sight blinds. I don't want the dog to become conditioned to run to white things that it sees in the field.


and todays gold nugget award goes to the doc of copters!!!!


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> Pattern blinds do teach the dog how to handle.
> 
> The problem is, that they also teach the dog to return to the place that it previously found a bumper.
> So, staying on pattern blinds too long, can actually do more harm than good.
> ...


what type of blind attitude would you say that the dogs you have trained in this manner have?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Copterdoc, I would like to see a dog you've trained this way run a 400 yard water blind. Then I'll run mine on the same blind. She's run at white posts since she was a baby pup. I'd love to see whose dog runs it with more momentum and control.
> ...


Walt,

That's likely to be a poor bet. You won't see many top notch FT trainers running toward white poles, at least not for very long. Good luck with it. I hope it's serving you. It surely is not necessary, though.

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

BlaineT said:


> he transitions into cold blinds just like Joe Overby has taught me to do it and it works really good just building initial momentum.and the info and instruction on that is good. but he doesnt tell why he does TT. we do T, wagon wheel, and start running cold blinds in the same manner.


You need to go back and re read the information Mr Farmer suggests. He does indeed say why he runs the TT!!

He talks about before he transistions to cold blinds, he teaches handling and casting with a CASTING wagon wheel drill... Not a Lining wagon whell,,but rater a Casting wagon wheel from that remote sit position..
He says that dogs pick up easily to this because of the long time spent teaching the TT.. Its a very integral part of that programs progression.

Then when he does move to actual Cold Blinds, he is still heavily concentrating on the handling and casting insrtuction of the blind,, not so much the line to it!

All this STARTS with the TT
Gooser


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm sure you're happy with what you're doing, Walt. I mentioned top notch FT trainers, and I don't reference them loosely. I mean top. I've trained with many; old school and new school. None used white targets with all-age dogs. If it's working for you, I think that's fine. I just wouldn't tend to bet against copterdoc in the challenge you issued. Unless, of course, I had some discretionary income I was eager to lose.

Evan


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Very good thread. One of the best in a while from my seat. I am sure that TT is very effective when done by a pro or experienced AM. I personally struggled with it, and in a post from /Paul on here I managed to get through that phase of teaching and moved on. The pro I worked with did not use it. I have not used it since. On the other hand I have used the white post or bucket while teaching. As Walt says, don't do it too often, don't depend on it. But it is a great tool and I have never, ever had a problem with one of mine out in the field looking for a white marker when running a blind and the two older dogs run big bold blinds. I can't say they always respond as they should, but that's a whole nother story. There is nothing wrong with their momentum and boldness! Please do carry on.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Copterdoc, I would like to see a dog you've trained this way run a 400 yard water blind. Then I'll run mine on the same blind. She's run at white posts since she was a baby pup. I'd love to see whose dog runs it with more momentum and control.
> ...





I believe the dog will be very solid on its LAND blinds,, and Casting VERY well before that dog is required to run a WATER blind... The BASICS of GOING,, Sitting,, and taking correct CASTS will be solid... Easier transition to water IMHO.

Gooser


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

2tall said:


> On the other hand I have used the white post or bucket while teaching. As Walt says, don't do it too often, don't depend on it. But it is a great tool and I have never, ever had a problem with one of mine out in the field looking for a white marker when running a blind


Just for the sake of clarity, I think the comment made about risking forming a habit of running toward white was a result of part of Walt's post, in which he mentioned "She's run at white posts since she was a baby pup." That sounds to me like far more than casual use of white. Perhaps that wasn't his intent. But there is quite a difference between running toward a visible marker a few times to get a pup going, and running toward white post all a dog's life.

I can't say mine never run towards anything white because, like gooser's (correct) reference to Farmer's practice of Wagon Wheel Casting drills (aka 8-handed casting), I run my WW lining and casting drills with white bumpers. The first few bumpers in my BB blinds are white. But those aren't drills I routinely run with fully trained dogs.

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

That Casting Wagon Wheel that Farmer talks about is very detailed also... Much more to it, than what he explains in his paragraph that has been linked to earlier..

There is a progression of how you teach angle backs, and overs from that angle back, as you progress around the wheel with the 8 stations. 
Even teaches "come in" to a straigh in bumper,, and angle come ins ..Very detailed, and an important step before you start cold blinds.
They call it the CASTING Wagon Wheel.
My pup is just starting her cold blinds.

I run this Wagon Wheel casting drill often before i run a blind.,,, just to warm her up a bit.
I am working at teaching her to HANDLE.. Not so much run a line to a blind.
Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I also believe that a dogs momentum comes from a good dose of pile and T work in the yard..
Momentum and training attitude is built before asking a dog to run a cold blind..
Not to say,that dog dog is going to have great momentum as it starts its first cold blinds,, but I believe if Momentum and attitude is addressed during yard work, then the dogs confidence will transfere much easier when it starts cold blinds.

Gooser was hammered with being reminded to balance Force and Praise during Force fetch,, Pile,, and T work.. We spent a TON of time there...


Gooser


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> You won't see many top notch FT trainers running toward white poles, at least not for very long. Good luck with it. I hope it's serving you. It surely is not necessary, though.


My hunch is that this practice started with a drill I was taught as being called "bucket blinds." The person I learned it from had learned it from Joe Harp. One of my dogs had been bought as a 2 year old and he had "issues". One of which was water blinds. He would bug, avoid, whatever you want to call it, but GOING where sent was the issue. Pressure didn't help the situation. In fact, my hunch was that poorly applied/timed pressure along with poor basics had created it. I needed a tool to teach the dog how to run a water blind ie: i used the bucket blinds to PULL him out to the blind, rather than PUSH him out to the blind. It taught this particular dog to leave my side confidently and swiftly. I ran them as patterns, wagon wheeled around a pond, etc. I then began decreasing the size of my buckets. Went to ice cream containers, then butter containers ie: decresing the size of my targets. Eventually took it away. The first time with no white target, he balked, and with a perfectly timed correction ie: Back- Burn- Back, he went, and the dog never looked back. 


I know someone else who had to use this type of method ie: pulling a dog out to a blind and their initial target was so big, it was a twin bedsheet folded in half....... they then kept folding the target down smaller and smaller.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> My hunch is that this practice started with a drill I was taught as being called "bucket blinds." The person I learned it from had learned it from Joe Harp. One of my dogs had been bought as a 2 year old and he had "issues". One of which was water blinds. He would bug, avoid, whatever you want to call it, but GOING where sent was the issue. Pressure didn't help the situation. In fact, my hunch was that poorly applied/timed pressure along with poor basics had created it. I needed a tool to teach the dog how to run a water blind ie: i used the bucket blinds to PULL him out to the blind, rather than PUSH him out to the blind. It taught this particular dog to leave my side confidently and swiftly. I ran them as patterns, wagon wheeled around a pond, etc. I then began decreasing the size of my buckets. Went to ice cream containers, then butter containers ie: decresing the size of my targets. Eventually took it away. The first time with no white target, he balked, and with a perfectly timed correction ie: Back- Burn- Back, he went, and the dog never looked back.
> 
> 
> I know someone else who had to use this type of method ie: pulling a dog out to a blind and their initial target was so big, it was a twin bedsheet folded in half....... they then kept folding the target down smaller and smaller.


Sounds like a good plan to solve a problem.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> ...... In fact, my hunch was that poorly applied/timed pressure along with poor basics had created it. I needed a tool to teach the dog.......


it is just that, a great tool 
BUT
a great many folk will take a tool they watched a pro use to fix an issue. 
and think all dogs need to do it.
this is one of those tools.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Interesting thread and actually I agree with both sides of the TTdebate. Been traveling so was not able to keep up and respond as the thread progressed so I'll just try and explain my view on TT.
After FF I move to 3 handed casting. Once the dog has this down I ad 2 more piles and teach angle backs. I do this as long as it takes for the dog to really understand all the casts, not too long with a good dog. Also teaching left and right straight backs. Then I move back 40 or 50 yds in the same spot and force to that back pile both from my side and with the dog out front with a back cast. Then I turn it into a simple mini T using both over and angle back casts. Everything I do here is perfected in the teaching mode and up close where it is easier to help the dog understand what is being taught. By the time I am done with this he understands it all very well. When I move on to the TT it is mostly just to get the dog used to doing everything it has learned at a distance and this doesnt take very long. So I do a TT but as I described earlier it is modified with two angle back piles instead of four over piles. I dont spend much time on TT, dont need to. Everything was all taught up close and personal and as we know distance erodes control so the TT is just a short step to practice what has been taught but stretched out at a distance. This has worked well for me. It is a step by step process where one step build upon another. I spend much more time on pattern blinds than TT. I know a lot of people dont spend much time on pattern blinds. I do patterns in more of a natural field setting to transition a dog from a more sterile atmsophere of a flat featureless TT filed. In pattern blinds I also ad marks teaching diversions, poison birds, running blinds past a gun station under the arc of a fall and all kinds of stuff like that. Then on to cold blinds
This is all just what I have put together for myself from what I have learned starting with the old Dobbs Tri Tronics book along with the Lardy stuff and what I have learned here and from experience. It is all very much one step builds upon another oriented and helps me as well as the dog progress with as few problems popping up along the way as possible.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> it is just that, a great tool
> BUT
> a great many folk will take a tool they watched a pro use to fix an issue.
> and think all dogs need to do it.
> this is one of those tools.



As I was reading you beat me to it. A few folks said NEVER use it. I think it's used a lot to repair problems or, work through a hiccup. I've seen multiple pro's use it, ones who have lots more bling on their list than most people I'll know or meet.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> it is just that, a great tool
> BUT
> a great many folk will take a tool they watched a pro use to fix an issue.
> and think all dogs need to do it.
> this is one of those tools.


yes. I wouldn't do it if I didn't need to. i can build momentum other ways if I am really that concerned that time and exposure won't correct a momentum issue.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Two experiences with white destination props. A very prominent hunt test pro and former field trialer with big dogs comes to the line. Dog looks out, guns go off, a white sign about 300 yards out dog will not take eyes off the white sign promptly runs to the white sign and is picked up, handler quietly curses judges for setting up a hunt test with a white sign,hmmm! Second time 9 plus year old dog with a bunch of second places comes to the line dog pins first first series, lines land blind, two whistles water blind, pins two of the tough water marks , judges talk about Miller Time just get the mark, dog swims near a white cup in the water, looks at white cup once twice, then goes over to check white cup out, dog is handled to last bird and thanks the judges for the Jam . Dog retires with 18 all age points ,needed a win title for AFC. Many ,many times used white props, bumpers etc, good momentum but! My bitch my white nemesis never again.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> If I saw this was going to be a problem with my dog, I wouldn't use white stakes. I run unmarked, cold blinds in fields with dozens of white electric fence posts put up by the farmer, with no issues. If she began doing what you describe, i'd take steps to deal with it. I can tell if she's locking onto something I don't want her to, part of training to get them off it. On blinds, I can change her mind, forget it on marks.
> Walt


Do you ever use the white electric fence stakes as your markers?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I haven't used white markers in the field for years. Most blind running problems stem from lack of education( dog or handler), poor application of pressure, ill timed or unfair discipline when training, putting your dog in over its head or moving through training too fast. A white bucket sitting in the field is never going to fix these issues....

/Paul


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

kip said:


> what type of blind attitude would you say that the dogs you have trained in this manner have?


 I'd say it's exceptionally good.

The key is to work on what the dog needs to learn at the time, in a way that it can understand.
You can't afford to nit-pick the dog, and "overhandle" on early cold blinds. If they're rolling in the general direction that you told em to go, let em roll!

You can fine tune the lining and casting later, after the dog has plenty of confidence that your cast, will put it on a bird/bumper.
Sight blinds DO improve a dog's confidence.

But, I believe that the confidence, is in the wrong thing.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> I'd say it's exceptionally good.
> 
> The key is to work on what the dog needs to learn at the time, in a way that it can understand.
> You can't afford to nit-pick the dog, and "overhandle" on early cold blinds. If they're rolling in the general direction that you told em to go, let em roll!
> ...


Just curious... not taking sides. What would that wrong thing be?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> ....I'm only saying it's part of my program and that to say 'never do it' could mean you're missing out on being able to help your dog.


 You're right. I shouldn't have said never.

I've got one dog with such a strong tendency to return to old falls, that pattern blinds are pure poison for him. 
With THAT dog, I might have been better off running sight blinds, than pattern blinds.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Just curious... not taking sides. What would that wrong thing be?


 I want the dog to be confident in taking my cast, in the direction that I gave it. 
To trust and believe in my cast, no matter where the dog thinks the bird/bumper is.

It's really hard for a dog to get to the point that it really trusts your casts. 
But, when they do, their confidence lies in what it needs to, in order for the dog to run "real" cold blinds.

Blinds aren't marks.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> I want the dog to be confident in taking my cast, in the direction that I gave it.
> To trust and believe in my cast, no matter where the dog thinks the bird/bumper is.
> 
> It's really hard for a dog to get to the point that it really trusts your casts.
> ...


good point... but would you tell your dog to mark while planting a sight blind or would you try to teach it the "dead bird" command? (if you were to ever run a sight blind, which you don't)


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

huntinman said:


> good point... but would you tell your dog to mark while planting a sight blind or would you try to teach it the "dead bird" command? (if you were to ever run a sight blind, which you don't)


 I don't understand what you are asking.

I use "mark" and "dead" as cues, before a mark is thrown, or the dog is sent on a blind. They aren't commands.

When I identify a pile during pile work, or at the beginning of establishing a pattern blind, I don't use those cues.
I don't use "dead" until I am well into the three legged pattern, and I am normally not anywhere near the dog, when I am identifying a pile.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> Many ,many times used white props, bumpers etc, good momentum but! My bitch my white nemesis never again.


My experience as well. It's one thing to be flexible enough to use a prop like that for a certain dog on a limited basis. But there is a law of diminishing returns on many such procedures. They help for a while, and then become a hindrance - sometimes a very big one. I think to continue to use such practices temps that law for what is less real return than risk.

I also believe that if your dog really needs something white to run toward in order to maintain good style there is something out of balance in your training. On a mark, your dog knows the end from the beginning. On a blind, he does not. That's really why the term "blind" works.

Evan


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

When I get to the transition, I'm trying to get AWAY from the yard. 
So, I don't start using "dead" as a cue, until I'm out of the yard.

I don't want "dead" to mean "here comes trouble, time to bug".


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

so why would he think a sight blind is a mark... unless you are throwing out there to plant it?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

huntinman said:


> so why would he think a sight blind is a mark... unless you are throwing out there to plant it?


 How does the dog know where a sight blind is?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> How does the dog know where a sight blind is?


Clairvoiyant


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

huntinman said:


> so why would he think a sight blind is a mark... unless you are throwing out there to plant it?


Oh good grief! It's a _dog_, not your four-legged fuzzy _kid_! The dog becomes conditioned to run to a destination he knows. He knows it's a destination because a human has conditioned him to acknowledge that prop as such, so he cues up for it, and runs with confidence. Why wouldn't he? He knows that spot as surely as if he'd seen a fall, and that becomes the problem for many of them when it's over done.

Evan


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Clairvoiyant


No. It knows, because it can see it.

A dog can't see a blind. 
It has to rely on you telling it where it is. 

So, in order for the dog to learn to rely on YOU to get it to a blind, does it make any sense to condition the dog to look for white things, and run to them?
Is that dog really being handled to the sight blind, or is it just being repeatedly stopped, and released to continue to it?

The best BLIND training that can be taken from sight blinds, is in casting the dog AWAY from them!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sight blinds do not teach a dog to run blinds...

/Paul


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> No. It knows, because it can see it.
> 
> A dog can't see a blind.
> It has to rely on you telling it where it is.
> ...


I don't know the answers to all your questions, but if my two FT dogs that actually got titled and ran Nat'ls could talk, I would ask them...


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> If I saw this was going to be a problem with my dog, I wouldn't use white stakes. I run unmarked, cold blinds in fields with dozens of white electric fence posts put up by the farmer, with no issues. If she began doing what you describe, i'd take steps to deal with it. I can tell if she's locking onto something I don't want her to, part of training to get them off it. On blinds, I can change her mind, forget it on marks.
> Walt


Many times in field trials they must go where you tell them to go even on marks. A couple of titled dogs FC/AFC titled dogs later since the one that was posted my thoughts on white have not changed. Three times either way good or bad you have the start of a problem, hmm Rex Carr I think, but, never say never. My post stands.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Criquetpas said:


> Two experiences with white destination props. A very prominent hunt test pro and former field trialer with big dogs comes to the line. Dog looks out, guns go off, a white sign about 300 yards out dog will not take eyes off the white sign promptly runs to the white sign and is picked up, handler quietly curses judges for setting up a hunt test with a white sign,hmmm! Second time 9 plus year old dog with a bunch of second places comes to the line dog pins first first series, lines land blind, two whistles water blind, pins two of the tough water marks , judges talk about Miller Time just get the mark, dog swims near a white cup in the water, looks at white cup once twice, then goes over to check white cup out, dog is handled to last bird and thanks the judges for the Jam . Dog retires with 18 all age points ,needed a win title for AFC. Many ,many times used white props, bumpers etc, good momentum but! My bitch my white nemesis never again.



glad I am not alone.
Drive for a tank of gas, 
pay an entry, 
get a worm containor placed in your hand by a dog that knows it is done good?!?!!!
never more for me Ke-Mo-Sah-Be!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Criquetpas said:


> ...... Three times either way good or bad you have the start of a problem, hmm Rex Carr I think, but, never say never. My post stands.


my early mentor Adrienne Bordo used to say once a happenstance, twice a habbit, third time an issue. I am sure she never met Mr. Carr. Just an old school dog true-ism. Your post does stand.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> glad I am not alone.
> Drive for a tank of gas,
> pay an entry,
> get a worm containor placed in your hand by a dog that knows it is done good?!?!!!
> never more for me Ke-Mo-Sah-Be!


Exactly Ken white cup worm containers, paper and just don't throw anything in white blooming Lilly pads, especially if scenting conditions are nil. They can bounce off them like a decoy and keep going but most of the time the white object trained dogs don't.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> glad I am not alone.
> Drive for a tank of gas,
> pay an entry,
> get a worm containor placed in your hand by a dog that knows it is done good?!?!!!
> never more for me Ke-Mo-Sah-Be!


whats the diffence with decoys? look there is no right or wrong, just like the t or tt. i know this for a fact, my dogs are successful with what i do, i have the titles and ribbons to prove it against the top dogs in the country, i never used markers until i watched alex wasburn do con drills. who is going to argue with her success? if you dont use sight blinds are pattern blinds how do you teach diversions, poison birds, gunners, and on and on. earl you know sh!t happens at a field trail. i have seen the high point dog leave the line make a loop and head to the truck, so you cant put everything on that can or whatever it was, dogs will be dogs. the proof is in the pudding how ever it comes out to your taste.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

kip said:


> whats the diffence with decoys? look there is no right or wrong, just like the t or tt. i know this for a fact, my dogs are successful with what i do, i have the titles and ribbons to prove it against the top dogs in the country, i never used markers until i watched alex wasburn do con drills. who is going to argue with her success? if you dont use sight blinds are pattern blinds how do you teach diversions, poison birds, gunners, and on and on. earl you know sh!t happens at a field trail. i have seen the high point dog leave the line make a loop and head to the truck, so you cant put everything on that can or whatever it was, dogs will be dogs. the proof is in the pudding how ever it comes out to your taste.


amen on that...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

kip said:


> whats the diffence with decoys? .


not many folk put a decoy out 200 yards and have a dog run to it a half a dozen times.
You know of any?;-)
Yet I know of a couple fellers who were judges (NAHRA) who liked to put a white sea gull decoy in the test just to mess with the dogs. I think they got in trouble for it.
It is kinda easy to trick a dog after all.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> not many folk put a decoy out 200 yards and have a dog run to it a half a dozen times.
> You know of any?;-)
> Yet I know of a couple fellers who were judges (NAHRA) who liked to put a white sea gull decoy in the test just to mess with the dogs. I think they got in trouble for it.
> It is kinda easy to trick a dog after all.


oh yea, this one liked to put a flock of snow goose shells out in the field just off the long retired gun.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Sight blinds aren't meant to teach cold blinds no. Their purpose is to teach a dog to retrieve something he hasn't "marked" down with his own sight. He can "see" the cone, or bucket, or white flag, but he didnt see a mark fall there. This is done quickly, so I agree with the opinion that over using sight blinds becomes a hindrance and not an effective training tool. I run the TT in the same line as the sight blind, and never in the same sequence. Keep HIM guessing, and you really aren't establishing a condition to sight blinds. Think of sight blinds as more of a warm up. Trust and confidence are built despite the Dog's ability to see the flag or bucket or whatever you use for the sight blind.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

we all do things different to a degree, i change with the dog tells me, i never will forget dave smith repeating a mark with a dog one time while we where training and a guy was at the farm watching that had mike tapes memorized and he flipped! "Mike never repeats in his videos" dave asked him if the dog f......ed up on the video as bad as the dog dave was running, that was the end to that. its all about reading the dog period!


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

jb504079 said:


> Sight blinds aren't meant to teach cold blinds no. Their purpose is to teach a dog to retrieve something he hasn't "marked" down with his own sight. He can "see" the cone, or bucket, or white flag, but he didnt see a mark fall there. This is done quickly, so I agree with the opinion that over using sight blinds becomes a hindrance and not an effective training tool. I run the TT in the same line as the sight blind, and never in the same sequence. Keep HIM guessing, and you really aren't establishing a condition to sight blinds. Think of sight blinds as more of a warm up. Trust and confidence are built despite the Dog's ability to see the flag or bucket or whatever you use for the sight blind.


WHAT! no wonder i see dogs walk on blinds when i judge, how did you come up with this?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

kip said:


> we all do things different to a degree, i change with the dog tells me, i never will forget dave smith repeating a mark with a dog one time while we where training and a guy was at the farm watching that had mike tapes memorized and he flipped! "Mike never repeats in his videos" dave asked him if the dog f......ed up on the video as bad as the dog dave was running, that was the end to that. its all about reading the dog period!


HaHaHa!!!!!


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

sorry , i promise i will be threw with all this corporate restructuring this week and i will be back at the farm and training dogs, sorry again,


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I agree when training young dogs relative to sight blinds, pattern blinds, poison bird drills, white bumpers, confusion walk away or if you have a very experienced dog that has a serious issue breaking it down simple. I remember many years ago with AFC Wildfire of Riverview a very talented Golden we put back on puppy marks . I guess I didn't explain the whole ball of wax Kip. The dog I discussed in the first post was kept on sight blinds too long. What you are saying is you have to have a balance. Sometimes I read these from those who haven't been in the arena of the big dog stuff. You do what it takes to get the job done like painting a single decoy white in training as a diversion etc,etc. Expect the unexpected. We do lots of not in the books/Dvd and perfect world training world. No one more unconventional then Dick D. Can't argue with his numbers of ft titled dogs, don't always agree with him but can't argue with success.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

kip said:


> WHAT! no wonder i see dogs walk on blinds when i judge, how did you come up with this?


Don't really know what u mean? My dogs run cold blinds with just as much enthusiasm as pattern and sight blinds.....my point was that sight blinds build confidence. Some argue the confidence is in the dog's ability to mark, and some argue the confidence is in the handler (where it should be). Over using sight blinds causes problems like retrieving white cups, and the like. Thought I made that clear enough. Nevertheless, they do have a purpose.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

While I don't use white markers in blind training, white will always be a big draw for dogs. It stands out so much. My good buddy Bubba set a master test last year that had the same white pipe sticking out on a memory mark and on the blind. Every single master dog in that test had to go check out that white pipe before picking up the mark. They are just dogs, they are going to be tempted. If your dog brings back a cup vs a bird might be time to really evaluate your program...

I'm not convinced running memory blinds a million times builds confidence in running cold blinds. I used to do it and eventually stopped. I can't say it every really made a difference. I know some that do though....who am I to argue with that. I think a dog that understands the concept of running blinds and being trained with a good foundation with fair corrections will run just as hard...

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

kip said:


> we all do things different to a degree, i change with the dog tells me, i never will forget dave smith repeating a mark with a dog one time while we where training and a guy was at the farm watching that had mike tapes memorized and he flipped! "Mike never repeats in his videos" dave asked him if the dog f......ed up on the video as bad as the dog dave was running, that was the end to that. its all about reading the dog period!


WHAT!? are you kidding me? Books and Video's are all thats needed to train a dog. They are the holy grail of success! I can't believe that contradicting a video would ever be appropriate....you must have lost your mind thinking that dog training is completely outlined in a video...

/Paul


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i wont to make something clear, once my dog is threw the yard, that includes pattern blinds or sight blinds, i am threw. i consider those types of blinds yard work. hopefully by the time my dog 9 to 10 months we have moved to field work. i might return to the "yard" to clean some things up or work on a specific problem. dont wont anyone to think i was running blue on sight blinds after he was running all age trials.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

not to sidetrack the de-railing of this thread but has anyone really explained what they can't do with T that they need TT to accomplish??


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

BlaineT said:


> not to sidetrack the de-railing of this thread but has anyone really explained what they can't do with T that they need TT to accomplish??


That's a great way to state that question. As a newb reading this thread, it sounds like the TT proponents are saying it is an extra proofing of the skills learned in single T. Kind of like the difference between shooting trap and shooting skeet. Trap and skeet both involve clays thrown from a machine, but the person who can shoot 23 of 25 clays at trap, can't necessarily shoot near that percentage in skeet. Same basic skills, but skeet is a whole other level of skill and precision. At least for me and my 20 ga.

That's just how I've read this thread. Not sure what the actual answer is.

Jen


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Really interesting thread. Have enjoyed the input! 

Somebody mentioned about lining and handling which was more important. 
Lining is important to me especially the initial line. Maybe b/c I started in HRC? But I spent time when my 3 yo was young doing WW and DT initially and revisit them. I use WW to work on working together as a team lining up. 
Early in his training I used orange pilons. If now we are running very long blinds, I would prefer nothing as I don’t want him looking for something just run straight with head up not hunt. When he first started the longer blinds, once he got out quite a distance, he would put his head down and hunt. Maybe confidence thing. We worked through that. 
We do start in the spring rerunning patterns in a natural field setting to warm the dog up after winter (hay bales, decoys etc). As Copterdoc mentioned when I did the pattern blinds, I did marks, diversions, poison birds, running blinds before or after the thrown mark, past a gun station under the arc of a fall etc. When training alone as I do I use different blinds in different fields but use diversions, poison birds, running blinds before or after the thrown mark, past a gun station under the arc of a fall etc. 
Yes everyone trains different and every dog is different to train. Thanks for a good thread.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

BlaineT said:


> not to sidetrack the de-railing of this thread but has anyone really explained what they can't do with T that they need TT to accomplish??



















You get the diversion (with the deeper "Over pile,) of a slightly "angle back" pile from from the closer "over Pile".

If the dog decides incorectly to go to deeper pile,, the cast after the sit will still be that same "over" cast.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

BlaineT said:


> not to sidetrack the de-railing of this thread but has anyone really explained what they can't do with T that they need TT to accomplish??


It helps with ping ponging a blind. How in the world will a dog ever learn to go sideways unless you drill into them to go left and right instead of back.....

/Paul


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

BlaineT said:


> not to sidetrack the de-railing of this thread but has anyone really explained what they can't do with T that they need TT to accomplish??


In a double T a slight angle in on the front overs will give you a better over without a angle back. Of course you can do the same thing with the single T slight angle in to get a literal over. Dogs taught with the slight angle in will sometimes break down into a straight over after doing attrition in the early stages of momentum blinds. You just have to work through it. Walking baseball is excellent after the tt or t. I think sometimes the double TT gives more suction and builds more corrections in. On the downside you don't want to tire the dog out on the double tt. The single t kinda gives more momentum and is less Tiring if you aren't a complusive trainer! Compulsive trainers need to take a break once in awhile .


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Really interesting thread. Have enjoyed the input!
> 
> Somebody mentioned about lining and handling which was more important.
> Lining is important to me especially the initial line. Maybe b/c I started in HRC? But I spent time when my 3 yo was young doing WW and DT initially and revisit them. I use WW to work on working together as a team lining up.
> ...


Don't understand how HRC enter into it. Do they require better initial lines?


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I just started TT with a dog. She smoked right through T. 3 days into TT I've blown my whistle an dealt with more flaring and bugging than all of T. That is just a few reasons you do TT. She is having many chances every day to learn from mistakes. It about the dog having more choices and more opportunities to problem solve. Those are only some of the benefit I se to the drill.


BlaineT said:


> not to sidetrack the de-railing of this thread but has anyone really explained what they can't do with T that they need TT to accomplish??


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I love this thread. I’m gonna go off the reservation for second, Chris ban my donkey if you need too. 

I’ve never understood the need to teach a dog to go left and right. If you back up and look at a dogs natural inclination its to quarter a field. They go left and right from birth. I’ve never understood why we spend so much time teaching a dog to go over when what we want is a dog to go back, something that is foreign to them. Think it through, why do we do fetch and spend all that time force to pile? Why do people try and build momentum with known blinds? Why do we do pattern field? What is it that makes us build this foundation to go back? 

Bottom line is bird dogs naturally quarter a field. No dog is born with an inclination to run 500 yards straight back. They will always break down and quarter. Their entire competitive life we focus on making them run straight lines and go back. Judges set tests to challenge that. Why would I focus on teaching big overs when 95% of the time I need them to go back with a slight change of direction? Think about literal casting? Oh they need to know it, but why drill into their heads side to side when I want them to go back? I may spend a couple of sessions on double TT with some dogs but frankly I want a dog to turn right/left and go back. That’s the taught aspect of running blinds. If I need to give an over in a HT or FT, I’ve failed as a handler. In all the hundreds of dogs I’ve worked with the dogs I have the worse ping ponging with are dogs that were drilled hard on overs. You pound that into a young dogs head and you got that for life. I’d much rather go out because the dog wouldn’t go over than go back. I can teach dogs to go sideways in a matter of days, going back takes months. I can also teach a dog to hold a biscuit on his nose until I snap my fingers but what frickin application does that have in competition? Or hunting? I can establish control without teaching overs. 

On the other hand, pound overs into your dog. I love it. Just makes my dogs look better when I get to the tests…..

/Paul


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I love this thread. I&#146;m gonna go off the reservation for second, Chris ban my donkey if you need too.
> 
> I&#146;ve never understood the need to teach a dog to go left and right. If you back up and look at a dogs natural inclination its to quarter a field. They go left and right from birth. I&#146;ve never understood why we spend so much time teaching a dog to go over when what we want is a dog to go back, something that is foreign to them. Think it through, why do we do fetch and spend all that time force to pile? Why do people try and build momentum with known blinds? Why do we do pattern field? What is it that makes us build this foundation to go back?
> 
> ...


I like it.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I love this thread. I’m gonna go off the reservation for second, Chris ban my donkey if you need too.
> 
> I’ve never understood the need to teach a dog to go left and right. If you back up and look at a dogs natural inclination its to quarter a field. They go left and right from birth. I’ve never understood why we spend so much time teaching a dog to go over when what we want is a dog to go back, something that is foreign to them. Think it through, why do we do fetch and spend all that time force to pile? Why do people try and build momentum with known blinds? Why do we do pattern field? What is it that makes us build this foundation to go back?
> 
> ...


When you have your dog fat on a point in a lake with the wind blowing hard on shore... You might need just a little bit of sideways...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

huntinman said:


> When you have your dog fat on a point in a lake with the wind blowing hard on shore... You might need just a little bit of sideways...


 No kidding. However I want the dog to get off the point and go back. teaching a dog to fight factors like wind, hills, cover is not something double TT is going to fix.....

/Paul


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

The T work is only a small portion of the over all training in basics, sit to the pile, casting, stopping, e collar work, then move on. I guess one could get the impresion the T work is all conclusive rule of thumb. I use 14 bumpers, ten on the back pile and four on the outside. Always or almost always follow up with a back cast after the over. Need to repeat one can always replant, keeps in simple. Two to four weeks move on and for the most part never go back to the T or your preference TT. That's the problem with all these visual and written programs it is never explained. Hope to see popping,flares , spinning and no goes on the better named casting drills. I don't want the dog to learn the trick of perfection . It is just another training exercise and doubt if it is more then 5 percent of all the training basic through advanced. This horse is getting beat bad. Just one man's opinion.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> No kidding. However I want the dog to get off the point and go back. teaching a dog to fight factors like wind, hills, cover is not something double TT is going to fix.....
> 
> /Paul


I agree... But sometimes they get further on land than you want. That's where the "big over" comes in. The dog that can do it keeps playing, the dog that can't goes home. The only reason I bring that up, is you surmised why should you focus on big overs... I had a friend years ago ask the same question... We had the same discussion, but it was at a trial. Going to watch the game...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I love this thread. I’m gonna go off the reservation for second, Chris ban my donkey if you need too.
> 
> I’ve never understood the need to teach a dog to go left and right. If you back up and look at a dogs natural inclination its to quarter a field. They go left and right from birth. I’ve never understood why we spend so much time teaching a dog to go over when what we want is a dog to go back, something that is foreign to them. Think it through, why do we do fetch and spend all that time force to pile? Why do people try and build momentum with known blinds? Why do we do pattern field? What is it that makes us build this foundation to go back?
> 
> ...



yes! Very Good!

But,,,,,

Paul, dont you think you start to teach the angle backs with a very clear underrstanding of Over and straight back???

You can teach this by the start of teaching a strong over in the T,, and progress to the TT and get that angle back diversion..
If the dog takes it,, you recast the over.

Then progressing to the Casting Wagon wheel,,, you THEN introduce the angle back.

Its very clear to the dog beacuse its between the Over,, and the straight back!!

Am I wrong???

I started cold blinds with my pup recently. I gave an over cast!!! I thought I would NEVER hear the end of it,, 10 pounds a ass layin on the ground...

No more overs!!!!! She KNOWS the difference of straight back ( prolly shouldnt blow the whistle,, and an angle back.

It gets less angle over time.. correct???

Goosie!!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

huntinman said:


> When you have your dog fat on a point in a lake with the wind blowing hard on shore... You might need just a little bit of sideways...


And maybe at 200 plus yards. Yup me thinks your correct. Good!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> How in the world will a dog ever learn to go sideways unless you drill into them to go left and right instead of back.....
> 
> /Paul





copterdoc said:


> The TT isn't about taking long overs, or even handling at all.
> It's about testing your basics. It gives the dog more stuff to think about, and stress over.
> And it's done in a controlled environment, that allows the dog to figure it all out.
> 
> ...


That's why I say that if you are going to do the TT, you need to know why you are doing it.
It's not a good handling drill. Most of the handling that the dog learns from it, needs to be "unlearned" as the dog learns to run cold blinds.

That's why it's generally not a good idea to go back to it.

However, the TT is a GREAT drill for testing your basics. To make SURE that you have the tools to deal with what happens when a dog's momentum breaks down.

It's not about getting long overs. 
It's about what insisting on long overs, does to the dog's momentum.

And it's a drill that allows you to easily simplify, and get the dog's momentum back.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What casts do we use in swim by,, and where did they learn those?

Gooser


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> What casts do we use in swim by,, and where did they learn those?
> 
> Gooser


if you follow Lardy it is called Disiplined casting. Fancy name for bumper in mouth single T


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

huntinman said:


> I agree... But sometimes they get further on land than you want. That's where the "big over" comes in. The dog that can do it keeps playing, the dog that can't goes home. The only reason I bring that up, is you surmised why should you focus on big overs... I had a friend years ago ask the same question... We had the same discussion, but it was at a trial. Going to watch the game...


I think "most" would agree where the dog is going to go with that big verbal "OVER".....


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Really interesting thread. Have enjoyed the input!
> 
> Somebody mentioned about lining and handling which was more important.
> Lining is important to me *especially the initial line.* Maybe b/c I started in HRC? But I spent time when my 3 yo was young doing WW and DT initially and revisit them. *I use WW to work on working together as a team lining up. *
> ...



There are two WW drills ..the first to teach lining and the 2nd to teach casting....Each has their own difficulties and reasons for doing them ...As you stated the WW is where we learn how to line up and teach the dog to run straight...The initial line is important in all venues and some judges value it more than others ...If you are good with a 5 bumper ring try adding 4 more past the first ring, the distance the first ring is from you...IE: 15 feet then 30 feet..When you think you are good add the 3rd ring ( 8 more another 15 feet) past the 2nd ring...Both are no pressure drills by the way ....Steve S PS; When the initial line runs out what then ...? You must be able to cast ....


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

BlaineT said:


> not to sidetrack the de-railing of this thread but has anyone really explained what they can't do with T that they need TT to accomplish??


Do you still have this question?

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> if you follow Lardy it is called Disiplined casting. Fancy name for bumper in mouth single T


But, 

You had to teach the OVER first!!!

So, there IS a reason to kinda drum that over into the dogs head.. We will use it later down the road from the T and TT right??

Its not about the blinds themselves,, but teaching a next step.. maybe teaching to handle???... in other words,,,follow my direction...

Gooser


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Evan said:


> Do you still have this question?
> 
> Evan


You did this on purpose,but, excellent post gave a ton of answers and brought some of us out of the woodwork. Hope there was a sharing of knowledge by the old guys/trainers and the what if's questions were answered.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> There are two WW drills ..the first to teach lining and the 2nd to teach casting....Each has their own difficulties and reasons for doing them ...As you stated the WW is where we learn how to line up and teach the dog to run straight...The initial line is important in all venues and some judges value it more than others ...If you are good with a 5 bumper ring try adding 4 more past the first ring, the distance the first ring is from you...IE: 15 feet then 30 feet..When you think you are good add the 3rd ring ( 8 more another 15 feet) past the 2nd ring...Both are no pressure drills by the way ....Steve S PS; When the initial line runs out what then ...? You must be able to cast ....


Sent you a pm Thanks ML


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> yes! Very Good!
> 
> But,,,,,
> 
> ...


Dog should have an understanding of over on Single T well enough to move to casting drills.

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

huntinman said:


> I agree... But sometimes they get further on land than you want. That's where the "big over" comes in. The dog that can do it keeps playing, the dog that can't goes home. The only reason I bring that up, is you surmised why should you focus on big overs... I had a friend years ago ask the same question... We had the same discussion, but it was at a trial. Going to watch the game...


I would debate this with the comment that getting a dog off a point in high wind into water at 300 yards is not taught via double TT. This is clearly an advanced skill that comes with much advanced training...

/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Big Over's aren't a component of T or TT. As has been mentioned before, T work only provides the basic mechanics to train your dog to handle. I've asserted for many years that even if a dog had sterling T work, they're not handling dogs yet. They're only equipped to become handling dogs, and that is done through Transition. But that transtional work will go more smoothly if the dog has sound Basics, including thorough T work.

Evan


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I would debate this with the comment that getting a dog off a point in high wind into water at 300 yards is not taught via double TT. This is clearly an advanced skill that comes with much advanced training...
> 
> /Paul


I agree... but I was responding to a point that was made about not needing them in a trial...


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> Big Over's aren't a component of T or TT. As has been mentioned before, T work only provides the basic mechanics to train your dog to handle. I've asserted for many years that even if a dog had sterling T work, they're not handling dogs yet. They're only equipped to become handling dogs, and that is done through Transition. But that transtional work will go more smoothly if the dog has sound Basics, including thorough T work.
> 
> Evan


I agree with Evan on the point that sound basics are needed to transfer the learning to the field ..application of those learning's is what transition is all about ...If you only get 80% in your casting and lining drills, what do you expect to get when you go to the field , or pond...Steve S


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

You basically just summed up what Kip and I were saying.


Evan said:


> Big Over's aren't a component of T or TT. As has been mentioned before, T work only provides the basic mechanics to train your dog to handle. I've asserted for many years that even if a dog had sterling T work, they're not handling dogs yet. They're only equipped to become handling dogs, and that is done through Transition. But that transtional work will go more smoothly if the dog has sound Basics, including thorough T work.
> 
> Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> You basically just summed up what Kip and I were saying.


If you're happy, I'm happy. 

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> I agree with Evan on the point that sound basics are needed to transfer the learning to the field ..application of those learning's is what transition is all about ...If you only get 80% in your casting and lining drills, what do you expect to get when you go to the field , or pond...Steve S


So you stay on Double TT until you get 100%?

/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So you stay on Double TT until you get 100%?
> 
> /Paul


I stay on it until it's pretty close /Paul. After they've done the double T without missing a cast or whistle, not no goed or flared to much for a couple of sessions, I go to run byes. This usually adds some confusion and I could get some cast refusals on the TT along with some cast refusals on the run by. After they've done the whole TT with run byes for two sessions in a row without big mistakes, I think it's about time to end the TT. I'm not saying they're perfect on the double T then but they know it well, run it smoothly and it's time to move on.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So you stay on Double TT until you get 100%?
> 
> /Paul


To begin with I stated earlier I don't do the TT...post #23...I do a 3-5 leg pattern from DL"S program ...Yes ...I do get 100% in my work ...then give the dog 3 more days to enjoy the success of their efforts ...As Howard stated the run by or casting with a dummy in the mouth is the last portion of the work...Steve S


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Steve, what are you referring to when you say "DL"? and can you further describe the 5 leg pattern?

One more: when you do the 3 leg baseball pattern, you have dog at heel at home base, send dog to pitcher's mound for whistle sit, then cast to a base?

Thanks,
Jennifer


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> To begin with I stated earlier I don't do the TT...post #23...I do a 3-5 leg pattern from DL"S program ...Yes ...I do get 100% in my work ...then give the dog 3 more days to enjoy the success of their efforts ...As Howard stated the run by or casting with a dummy in the mouth is the last portion of the work...Steve S


Do you ever come back to the 3-5 leg pattern? If so, when/why do you revisit it ? I'm familiar with the 3-5 leg but I dont know that I _fully_ understand what can be gained from it once it is taught ,Thanks.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

DL Walters. Training Retrievers to Handle. Pro from KS back in the day...


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## Pattie (Jan 2, 2004)

Some good information on this thread. Wish there were a print option. I will have to copy/paste to word so I can print it. My eyes are killing me trying to read it all on my computer.

Pattie


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Jennifer, I hope Steve will forgive me for answering, but he is referring to DL Walters (not Wolters) book, "Training Retrievers to Handle". It is an old book, with many outmoded methods. But the drills and sketches are absolutely great. I trained my first dog with it when I became frustrated with other methods. This was simple, to the point and it worked.....for me!


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## FLNative (Nov 19, 2010)

Pattie said:


> Some good information on this thread. Wish there were a print option. I will have to copy/paste to word so I can print it. My eyes are killing me trying to read it all on my computer.
> 
> Pattie


Click on "Thread Tools" above right. Then click on "Show Printable Version".

Caroline


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Steve, what are you referring to when you say "DL"? and can you further describe the 5 leg pattern?
> 
> One more: when you do the 3 leg baseball pattern, you have dog at heel at home base, send dog to pitcher's mound for whistle sit, then cast to a base?
> 
> ...


As stated it is in reference to DL Walters...There are a couple of different ways to set up a 5 leg pattern ..First off number the legs in a clockwise direction begin with 1 end with 5 ..If you are familiar with a 5 bumper wagon wheel just make legs 1,3,5, 125yds legs 2,4 150yards...This will give you room to add diversion birds and poison birds later on...To tighten the lines up for a fine lining drill take the middle 3 legs(2,3,4 ) and add legs between 2,4, out another 25 to 50 yards further... 

3 leg basball ..I line the 3 bases from home plate ...stop the dog on the line to 1st half way and give a right back ...send the dog up the middle to 2nd ,don't stop ....same for 3rd base ..only with a left back ...I also do a lot of front sits and cast to all the piles...overs and backs,all bases ....I stop at the pitchers mound after the dog is comfortable with the stops and the front sit overs to 1st &3rd...Then you can choose any of the 3 cast ...If you stop short of the pitchers mound you can give angle back to 1st and 3rd.....Steve S


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## Pattie (Jan 2, 2004)

Thank you Caroline!!!

Pattie


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Steve, what are you referring to when you say "DL"? and can you further describe the 5 leg pattern?
> 
> One more: when you do the 3 leg baseball pattern, you have dog at heel at home base, send dog to pitcher's mound for whistle sit, then cast to a base?
> 
> ...


The basic 5-leg looked like this.










Later a new pattern can be set with the legs tighter in proximity. You can add casts like Steve does, although I don't know how close to D.L.'s versions he uses. But we did this a lot in the 1970's










Evan


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

OK we have ran a few sessions of Double T. On session 2 I did in fact get some no going and flaring....that was easily cleaned up. I ran the dog to death in land T and with some advice of a member here I am going to just do a week or two of double T work and move on....Every cast and whistle has been 100% for a couple of sessions and I have mixed in starts, stops, here whistles and such....Today I sent to the back pile and stopped on the closest apex. I then casted back to the second apex with a right back and stopped again...from there I casted to the far left over pile and released to here when he got to the pile....Is this run by???? I was just messing around seeing if he would take the casts with the bumper in his mouth but I am not real sure how to do the whole run by thing.....any help is appreciated.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

acemedic1 said:


> Today I sent to the back pile and stopped on the closest apex. I then casted back to the second apex with a right back and stopped again...from there I casted to the far left over pile and released to here when he got to the pile....Is this run by????


Run-by is done on return, but I suppose that qualifies. If you're going to do it it's best from the Back pile as prep for the mechanism of Swim-by.

Evan


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Shawn White said:


> Do you ever come back to the 3-5 leg pattern? If so, when/why do you revisit it ? I'm familiar with the 3-5 leg but I dont know that I _fully_ understand what can be gained from it once it is taught ,Thanks.


Yes ,I re revisit it once in awhile ...For specific fixes that have arisen in the field...I would rather fight this out in a pattern the dog is familiar with than in the cold field..Tears down dogs momentum too much in the field...Steve S


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

This is a "tighter lines" version of 5-leg.










Evan


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Evan said:


> Run-by is done on return, but I suppose that qualifies. If you're going to do it it's best from the Back pile as prep for the mechanism of Swim-by.
> 
> Evan


I may have worded that wrong...I sent the dog to the back pile and let him pick up a bumper, then whistle stopped at the apex closest to me on his return....Is this what you mean? Can you elaborate on what my subsequent sessions should include...thanks alot for your help!


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

2tall said:


> Jennifer, I hope Steve will forgive me for answering, but he is referring to DL Walters (not Wolters) book, "Training Retrievers to Handle". It is an old book, *with many outmoded methods.* But the drills and sketches are absolutely great. I trained my first dog with it when I became frustrated with other methods. This was simple, to the point and it worked.....for me!


I forgive you for answering, but I'm curious why you think of his method as outmoded? It is the most simplified book I have seen on teaching dogs to handle..A person doesn't have to have a lot of knowledge on the subject to grasp what is need to teach the dog...How many times have you heard it said " Lardy's stuff is great but you need to have some knowledge to get through it "? .Tons of info necessary to the training of dogs other than just lining and casting...I believe Evan still uses the walking base ball section ..He probably doesn't adhere to the exact repetitions DL used to illustrate the drill...Just one quote " You are forming your habits as well as the dog's, so be just as strict with yourself.."DL .....If the plain ole TT is so great ,why are there so many modified versions being used ...? 

Thanks Evan for the pictures , they are always worth 1000 words... Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Off subject but can some one explain how to get that stuff bellow you post ...IE : quotes , dogs list and the like ..Thanks Steve S PS I'm computer illiterate so please use simple words....


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> I believe Evan still uses the walking base ball section ..He probably doesn't adhere to the exact repetitions DL used to illustrate the drill...
> 
> Thanks Evan for the pictures , they are always worth 1000 words... Steve S


You're welcome, Steve! I sure do use Walking Baseball, and I do it just like he taught me to do it at his place in '77. I use his patterns often as well. Good dog training is good dog training. Thankfully dogs don't know what the date is!

Evan


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I was referring to the bird shot and sling shot stuff. I agree with you 1000% that I was one of those that did not have the knowledge to use Lardy's system as intended. It was at the advice of my old school mentors that I read and used DL's book. As far as the walking baseball, I understand from one of those mentors that did work with DL, that DL himself was not at all satisfied with the diagrams in the book. Walkiing BB was just one of those things much easier to "show" than to tell. My point was, that DL's ideas saved me from a big quagmire I was headed for trying to complete TT without the proper background.


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

I searched for the run by on here without luck...Did I miss this in your basic handling DVD Evan?


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> Off subject but can some one explain how to get that stuff bellow you post ...IE : quotes , dogs list and the like ..Thanks Steve S PS I'm computer illiterate so please use simple words....


 Click Setting on the right side of main tool bar, then on left side you will see my settings,avatar etc. Then click "edit signature"


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

acemedic1 said:


> I searched for the run by on here without luck...Did I miss this in your basic handling DVD Evan?


No, I don't do Run-by anymore. With my method, Swim-by is so simple and easy to control Run-by really isn't worth the time spent for me. 

Evan


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> Yes ,I re revisit it once in awhile ...For specific fixes that have arisen in the field...I would rather fight this out in a pattern the dog is familiar with than in the cold field..Tears down dogs momentum too much in the field...Steve S


Don't mean to pry ,but can you give some examples of " fixes" you go back to the 5 leg for? 

By know means am I challenging you or your way's ,just trying to learn.


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Thanks, I was thinking I was crazy...must have watched that dvd 100 times hahaha...quick question though....when do angled casts come in to play?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

acemedic1 said:


> ...quick question though....when do angled casts come in to play?


Once your TT is sharp you'll start several things, one of which will be 8-handed casting (aka Wagon Wheel Casting drill). Build it as it shows on Transition Phase 1, and you'll find your dog will catch on pretty quick. With regard to 'how sharp' on TT, I don't believe dogs become 100% at any of this. I don't think they would, even if this stuff were their idea, and it's not. I think they become reliable and accurate, and that's what you're looking for.

Evan


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Thanks! I have resisted watching any of your videos until I reach that point....I am going to wait until spring for water force and swim by, so off to transistion 1 it is.....thanks again!!!


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Evan said:


> This is not a new topic. But some time back there were a couple discussions about some trainers drifting away from TT as a routine part of Basics, while others continued to use it faithfully. There was a surprising amount of passion on behalf of some trainers of both schools, and I'm curious about how that trend has moved over time.
> 
> Double T (TT) has been a long standing traditional component of Carr-based skill sets for Basics for decades. How have your thoughts about it changed, if indeed they have? Do you still do it, or just the Single T? Why?
> 
> ...




Epic thread, 230 posts and 8929 views.


So after all those posts, and opinions, would it be fair to assume (I know,I know) that you can teach a retriever to handle with or without the TT??

And the outcome would rely greatly on the skill and ability of the trainer and NOT the method used?? 


Just a thought.............Was fun to follow this thread PLENTY of GOOD information.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Rnd said:


> Epic thread, 230 posts and 8929 views.
> 
> 
> So after all those posts, and opinions, would it be fair to assume (I know,I know) that you can teach a retriever to handle with or without the TT??
> ...


Thanks! Glad you've enjoyed it. I'm not a fan of assumptions, but what should be learned from all this is:

Yes, a retriever can be trained to reliably perform the functions of Basic Handling via Single T-alone, or Single T + Double T. 
In either event, that dog is not yet really a handling dog, but rather is now ready to become one.
The outcome is dependent on the quality of the dog, his early prep, and definitely the quality of application in his T work - Single and/or Double.
The method used matters, but only as far as the quality of application. Common sense should tell us that.
If we learn little else here, we should learn that there is more to gain from T work than Go, Stop, Cast, and Come functions. If that's all you're getting out it you're squandering a great opportunity.

It's been a good discussion. Thanks for joining!

Evan


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Yep, great thread and thanks for all of the replies to my question about 3 and 5 leg. Interesting stuff!


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

So what else should be learned in the T or TT for that matter.


Evan said:


> Thanks! Glad you've enjoyed it. I'm not a fan of assumptions, but what should be learned from all this is:
> 
> Yes, a retriever can be trained to reliably perform the functions of Basic Handling via Single T-alone, or Single T + Double T.
> In either event, that dog is not yet really a handling dog, but rather is now ready to become one.
> ...


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

2tall said:


> I was referring to the bird shot and sling shot stuff. I agree with you 1000% that I was one of those that did not have the knowledge to use Lardy's system as intended. It was at the advice of my old school mentors that I read and used DL's book. As far as the walking baseball, I understand from one of those mentors that did work with DL, that DL himself was not at all satisfied with the diagrams in the book. Walkiing BB was just one of those things much easier to "show" than to tell. My point was, that DL's ideas saved me from a big quagmire I was headed for trying to complete TT without the proper background.


Sorry for having thought in the wrong direction ....I agree that when he wrote the book training methods were a lot different ...He has a large section on the use of the collar and all the problems that came with its use back then ....I couldn't bring my self to shoot a dog in the name of training....A have used a collar since the early 70's and it sure was a crude one compared to todays...His book is the only one I know of dedicated to the single purpose of teaching a dog to handle ...It is not a program to follow to train dogs....May be some one ought to up date it and delete all the old correction methods ...another good subject book would be how to use the collar .... Steve S


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

steve schreiner said:


> Sorry for having thought in the wrong direction ....I agree that when he wrote the book training methods were a lot different ...He has a large section on the use of the collar and all the problems that came with its use back then ....I couldn't bring my self to shoot a dog in the name of training....A have used a collar since the early 70's and it sure was a crude one compared to todays...His book is the only one I know of dedicated to the single purpose of teaching a dog to handle ...It is not a program to follow to train dogs....May be some one ought to up date it and delete all the old correction methods ...another good subject book would be how to use the collar .... Steve S


If you use a e collar circa 2013 programs using indirect and/or direct pressure, substitute the shooting with rat shot etc with what would be a more modern correction with a Nick, burn etc. I have put many dogs through the program with the transition/advanced level including walking baseball using collar corrections. It is an excellent program and as a example if you are a Lardyite he does suggest the program in his early DVD. Not promoting one program over another just one man's opinion. For the non collar users ? Don't have an answer.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> So what else should be learned in the T or TT for that matter.


I’m pretty sure we’ve covered all of this before. But beyond the fundamental Go, Stop, Cast, and Come functions, the T’s should work together in advancing pressure conditioning. No-go, slow sits, flaring hot spots, popping, bugging, working through the suction effects of multiple cast piles, and learning to go as sent on a basic level, being stopped and cast at more than one spot (apex) – all should be worked out in these well-defined drills. In addition to the Right Over/Left Over & Back casts that are usually taught in T work, I also teach “Here” as a cast in my land T’s. The more thoroughly all of this is done, the more readily dogs tend to work through the more advanced tasks of Transition, and the more easily they are maintained over their careers.

I maintain that you’ll never know how good any dog is whose Basics were not thorough. Opinions obviously vary as to what that entails.

Evan


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I was just asking and that is a good answer. Not antagonizing just making sure I had not missed something.


Evan said:


> I’m pretty sure we’ve covered all of this before. But beyond the fundamental Go, Stop, Cast, and Come functions, the T’s should work together in advancing pressure conditioning. No-go, slow sits, flaring hot spots, popping, bugging, working through the suction effects of multiple cast piles, and learning to go as sent on a basic level, being stopped and cast at more than one spot (apex) – all should be worked out in these well-defined drills. In addition to the Right Over/Left Over & Back casts that are usually taught in T work, I also teach “Here” as a cast in my land T’s. The more thoroughly all of this is done, the more readily dogs tend to work through the more advanced tasks of Transition, and the more easily they are maintained over their careers.
> 
> I maintain that you’ll never know how good any dog is whose Basics were not thorough. Opinions obviously vary as to what that entails.
> 
> Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

dexdoolittle said:


> I was just asking and that is a good answer. Not antagonizing just making sure I had not missed something.


Thanks Dex. It really has been a good discussion, and hopefully has provided good information and food for thought for many.

Evan


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> If you use a e collar circa 2013 programs using indirect and/or direct pressure, *substitute *the shooting with rat shot etc with what would be a more modern correction with a Nick, burn etc. I have put many dogs through the program with the transition/advanced level including walking baseball using collar corrections. It is an excellent program and as a example if you are a Lardyite he does suggest the program in his early DVD. Not promoting one program over another just one man's opinion. For the non collar users ? Don't have an answer.


I totally agree..That is exactly what I have done for 40 years....substitute .....When you can't get a good hip xray for the rat shot in the rump something is wrong....After all the cussing and discussing over which better ,best ,right or wrong ....let's all agree to the fact there is more than one way to "get er done " ...Steve S


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Agreed Steve it is an excellent book on teaching retrievers to handle, but, many are frightened off with the boot,
Shoot, electocute. We do have an advantage of thinking out of the box and adapting to more progressive training from where we came as trainers. Black pepper on the x-rays is not the way to go. I don't want to even think about the punishment of yesteryear. Having said that Training Retrievers to Handle is still worth reading and the principals haven't
Changed or the training mission, only the methods have changed.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> Agreed Steve it is an excellent book on teaching retrievers to handle, but, many are frightened off with the boot,
> Shoot, electocute. We do have an advantage of thinking out of the box and adapting to more progressive training from where we came as trainers. Black pepper on the x-rays is not the way to go. I don't want to even think about the punishment of yesteryear. Having said that Training Retrievers to Handle is still worth reading and the* principals haven't
> Changed or the training mission, only the methods have changed*.



So very true..Steve S


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