# How important is ff?



## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

On another board.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...topics/7972538/1/Force_Fetch_DIY_or_use_a_pro 
Seems a few don't care to, and think it's painful to the dog, and makes for distrust.
What say you?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Same old excuses justifying why they don't really train their dog.

/Paul


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

I say let their dog decide when and where it picks up birds, I don't need the suspense.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

If a hunt test is in the future be sure to learn the JR grab well before entering.......or FF. Make that while hunting too!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Reasoning with pointer people is "pointless" lol


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Reasoning with pointer people is "pointless" lol


I know a lot of pointer guys don't FF because of the games they play.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

metalone67 said:


> I know a lot of pointer guys don't FF because of the games they play.


Field trial pointers only must make one retrieve in their career to become an FC. Few pointer trainers understand FF is more than holding a bird. Even fewer pointer AM's have any understanding of FF.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

The pointer guys I ran against sure did....

/Paul


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

The only guy I know who has a pointer, also believed FF was not necessary. We hunted together, after he got his Pointer thru basic training, for about two years. He worked everyday on training his dog and she really developed well. She was a good and talented hunter.....except when she returned a pheasant of quail it was so chewed up you could not eat it. He fought this problem for about three years with no success. I tried to get him to FF her, but he was blind to the truth......so he stopped hunting her....what a waste of a good dog, tons of time he spent training and conditioning her, not to mention the costs.....You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink!


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Pretty sure a pointer trainer invented the FF concept back in the late 1800s, and some of the replies above make it clear the respondents don't know much about training without FF, either.

(Some credit Caleb Whitford, others a predecessor of his whose name escapes me.)


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Any retrieving dog worth it's salt is FF. I think some people do not want to take the time and effort to see it through. Sure it is tough when it's table work but when you take to the ground and you see the light bulb go on it is a very cool thing. Up and down the line picking everything up you tell them to fetch with no pressure, now thats a retriever.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

yellow machine said:


> Any retrieving dog worth it's salt is FF. I think some people do not want to take the time and effort to see it through. Sure it is tough when it's table work but when you take to the ground and you see the light bulb go on it is a very cool thing. Up and down the line picking everything up you tell them to fetch with no pressure, now thats a retriever.


And, here, I'd of thought it's what happens in the field that determines whether a retrieving dog is worth its salt. Know that's what makes me say "now that's a retriever", whether it's been FFed or not.

('Spose we can keep this up until teal starts next month?)


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## Wendy M (Apr 11, 2013)

I think it very much depends on the way you wish to train - If you intend to collar condition and/or utilise 'pressure' in your training then I can see that FF is a rather crucial beginning step in that process. However, there are obviously many other ways to train a retriever or gundog that do not involve this type of pressure, UK retrievers are not force fetched (on the whole), but we don't tend to use pressure the same way you guys do.

Not a critisism by-the-way, just a recognition of difference.

Wendy


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> And, here, I'd of thought it's what happens in the field that determines whether a retrieving dog is worth its salt. Know that's what makes me say "now that's a retriever", whether it's been FFed or not.
> 
> ('Spose we can keep this up until teal starts next month?)


I've seen some great gun dogs make awesome retrieves only to drop the bird in the current and shake on shore while the birds heads downstream. What happens in the field don't mean much if the bird is fish food...

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> The pointer guys I ran against sure did....
> 
> /Paul


One call back for a retrieve in a field trial required in their career to get an FC on a pointer. Why would they invest much in FF? I've walked many laps with the AM National winner and 3rd place winner last year. His dogs are NOT FF'd nor are any other Pointers I've seen at a few American Field and AKC Pointer events the way I call a true, FF- A past National Open winner also has a pretty vague understanding of FF from my time spent training a few weekends with him. He gets it done "sort of" but, again, incomplete at best. 

A "soft" fetch maybe- they pick, mouth, drop and roll birds. Just about every single one of them- all signs of incomplete FF'ing IMO.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Wendy M said:


> I think it very much depends on the way you wish to train - If you intend to collar condition and/or utilise 'pressure' in your training then I can see that FF is a rather crucial beginning step in that process. However, there are obviously many other ways to train a retriever or gundog that do not involve this type of pressure, UK retrievers are not force fetched (on the whole), but we don't tend to use pressure the same way you guys do.
> 
> Not a critisism by-the-way, just a recognition of difference.
> 
> Wendy


In fairness, the way food is cooked in the UK, I'd rather the dog not bring it back. 

/Paul


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

It is extremely important. Much of the dogs training is an extension of what they gained in FF.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> One call back for a retrieve in a field trial required in their career to get an FC on a pointer. Why would they invest much in FF? I've walked many laps with the AM National winner and 3rd place winner last year. His dogs are NOT FF'd nor are any other Pointers I've seen at a few American Field and AKC Pointer events the way I call a true, FF- A past National Open winner also has a pretty vague understanding of FF from my time spent training a few weekends with him. He gets it done "sort of" but, again, incomplete at best.
> 
> A "soft" fetch maybe- they pick, mouth, drop and roll birds. Just about every single one of them- all signs of incomplete FF'ing IMO.


If you want to win trials, the dog better retrieve to hand. If they do that good enough. Pointers and retrievers are different dogs and way different games. Us retriever guys like to talk about a dogs "natural abilities" and then we go and train out every natural ability a dog has. Pointers are bred, ran and judged against a dogs true natural abilities. When it comes to the the topic of natural abilities in retrievers, all of us are full of cow dung...

/Paul


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## Willow SGD (Nov 8, 2010)

yellow machine said:


> Any retrieving dog worth it's salt is FF. I think some people do not want to take the time and effort to see it through. Sure it is tough when it's table work but when you take to the ground and you see the light bulb go on it is a very cool thing. Up and down the line picking everything up you tell them to fetch with no pressure, now thats a retriever.


There a big world out there and the US competitive retriever group is a very small sub set. I believe in ff for my dogs, but I see dogs who do fine without it and I think anyone would call them fine accomplished retrievers.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> If you want to win trials, the dog better retrieve to hand. If they do that good enough. Pointers and retrievers are different dogs and way different games. Us retriever guys like to talk about a dogs "natural abilities" and then we go and train out every natural ability a dog has. Pointers are bred, ran and judged against a dogs true natural abilities. When it comes to the the topic of natural abilities in retrievers, all of us are full of cow dung...
> 
> /Paul


But no birds are shot at a trial.(unless you have not done your single retrieve call back) Everything at a trial is flush, fly away- Bang from blank pistol. They have no real need to have a stylish retrieve or, even much of a reliable retrieve. Most FC pointers retrieve looks like a show lab retrieve at the first JH test of the year with the handlers doing some Steve Largent/Jerry Rice moves to catch the bird before it hits the ground.. 

Now, pointer Hunt tests are a different story.

When you see Dual CH DC/FC/AFC on pointers it doesn't impress me. The only must retrieve ONE shot bird in their career and can become an FC without having run against an open class/all breed trial. Basically, an Irish Setter can become an FC at what is basically a "specialty" trial.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I've seen some great gun dogs make awesome retrieves only to drop the bird in the current and shake on shore while the birds heads downstream. What happens in the field don't mean much if the bird is fish food...
> 
> /Paul


I hear ya'.
Have seen a couple FF'd dawgs accidently drop birds afield ;-)


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> But no birds are shot at a trial.(unless you have not done your single retrieve call back) Everything at a trial is flush, fly away- Bang from blank pistol. They have no real need to have a stylish retrieve or, even much of a reliable retrieve. Most FC pointers retrieve looks like a show lab retrieve at the first JH test of the year with the handlers doing some Steve Largent/Jerry Rice moves to catch the bird before it hits the ground..
> 
> Now, pointer Hunt tests are a different story.
> 
> When you see Dual CH DC/FC/AFC on pointers it doesn't impress me. The only must retrieve ONE shot bird in their career and can become an FC without having run against an open class/all breed trial. Basically, an Irish Setter can become an FC at what is basically a "specialty" trial.


You should run NSTRA. Even in FTSB trials a dog will have to deliver to hand, although they do let some birds fly away to test the steadyness of the point. Again, focused on natural abilities strengthened through training. I don't know how you can watch a pointer do what it does and not be impressed. Its a thing of beauty...

/Paul


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Wendy M said:


> I think it very much depends on the way you wish to train - If you intend to collar condition and/or utilise 'pressure' in your training then I can see that FF is a rather crucial beginning step in that process. However, there are obviously many other ways to train a retriever or gundog that do not involve this type of pressure, UK retrievers are not force fetched (on the whole), but we don't tend to use pressure the same way you guys do.
> 
> Not a critisism by-the-way, just a recognition of difference.





Gun_Dog2002 said:


> In fairness, the way food is cooked in the UK, I'd rather the dog not bring it back.


Maybe you need to get out more and open your mind (and mouth) to "the way food is cooked in the UK," and not just by Gordon Ramsay, or Marco Pierre White, or for that matter, Lenny Henry. "In fairness," Wendy's hubby is a keeper - gamekeeper, that is - and his game must be fit for table because much of it is sold to the local butcher after it's shot. So you'd rather not have a dog bring it back for pheasant and ginger casserole - or becasse on toast (trail included) - or wild squab (wood pigeon) salad with raspberry coulis, or for that matter the roast Christmas goose










basted with scrumpy and gooseberry stuffing?

Hmm, your loss - force fetched dogs or not.

MG


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

From an old post of mine regarding FF and pointing dogs (and mind you, I'm talking about the *real* FDSB National Championship where no retrieves are required, not the watered down AKC version): 

_Regarding the need to FF:

There was a very well known pointing dog trainer named Clyde Morton. He won the National Championship at Ames Plantation 11 times, a record that will likely stand forever. These dogs are big running, horseback field trial dogs that have to run hard and stylish for three hours, finishing just as strong as they start. They have to be rock solid steady to wing and shot....but only blanks are used, and no birds are killed....no retrieving is ever required.

Clyde Morton FF'd all of his dogs, even though they never had to retrieve. Every single one of them. Why? He said it made them "his". It's said...and I wish I could have seen it....that he could handle his dogs through a sheep panel at half a mile from horseback, just by body language.

You don't get the kind of class and style in numerous dogs that win 11 National Championships by hurting a dog or making them hate you or the training. _


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

RJ, who has 60 FC's in AKC, CKC and AF, USA GSP AA Dog of the year, USA GSP Gundog of the year and also made the first Gordon Setter FC in 40 years amongst just a few notable accomplishments also FF's all his dogs. 

FF as they do it and we know it is not the same.


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## IMABIRDHUNTER (Mar 14, 2013)

FF as they do it and we know it is not the same. Very true .Pointers are NOT forced to GO!


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

I think the question should be "who on here knows how to take a dog to a high level without FF" its a lost art ,pretty sure of one in this thread that can. Jim


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> I think the question should be "who on here knows how to take a dog to a high level without FF" its a lost art ,pretty sure of one in this thread that can. Jim


I think that is NOT the question here.... It's not a "lost" art. It's the fact that you don't go far without it because we aren't driving a model T anymore. We're driving smart cars with high horsepower and computer technology.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Swampbilly said:


> I hear ya'.
> Have seen a couple FF'd dawgs accidently drop birds afield ;-)


Ya but they pick them back up on command. 

/Paul


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Not gonna argue with you paul,I can name 23 fc s and afc s that were not force broke.Do I wish to go backto those days,NO!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> FF as they do it and we know it is not the same.


 actually it is. They just don't do FTP, T work etc. I know most pointer guys will still do walking fetch with their dogs, after that who cares. If you have to force a pointer to "go" you got bigger problems....

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> actually it is. They just don't do FTP, T work etc. I know most pointer guys will still do walking fetch with their dogs, after that who cares. If you have to force a pointer to "go" you got bigger problems....
> 
> /Paul


lol... like, where is the nearest Pet shop that sells dogs..


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

jd6400 said:


> Not gonna argue with you paul,I can name 23 fc s and afc s that were not force broke.Do I wish to go backto those days,NO!


Oh, i'm not gonna say there aren't guys out there not doing this, and having some success. I just think my experience is the pointers that do the better work have had some FF type work done. Either way, there is nothing as fun to watch as a big running pointer ....

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> Not gonna argue with you paul,I can name 23 fc s and afc s that were not force broke.Do I wish to go backto those days,NO!


Yes, and each of them only had to pick up a SINGLE retrieve in their career to become an AFC or FC. A light force hold and introduction to shot birds is all an FC/AFC pointer needs to have for a title. Folks seem to miss the point I keep saying over and over. In FT's for pointers, THEY DO NOT SHOOT BIRDS during the actual running of the stake.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yes, and each of them only had to pick up a SINGLE retrieve in their career to become an AFC or FC. A light force hold and introduction to shot birds is all an FC/AFC pointer needs to have for a title. Folks seem to miss the point I keep saying over and over. In FT's for pointers, THEY DO NOT SHOOT BIRDS during the actual running of the stake.


They do in NSTRA. 

/Paul


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I have ran and judged AKC GSP field trials in the past. I have judged NSTRA. In AKC way back when, all except derby stakes were retrieving to hand stakes and had to have at least one retrieve to get the win or placement.If it was a course with a bird field the birds on the back course were blanked off.If it was a continuous course with no bird field gunners rode along and gunned usually just once if it was noted a retrieving stake in the premium.Apparently that is no longer a requirement.We FFd our dogs to pretty much the same standard that we do now except for walking and stick fetch.Hold means hold.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I've seen some great gun dogs make awesome retrieves only to drop the bird in the current and shake on shore while the birds heads downstream. What happens in the field don't mean much if the bird is fish food...
> 
> /Paul


I'd not call a dog, FFed or not, "a great gun dog" if it was inclined to let its birds float, fly or run off. And you've surely been around long enough to know FF isn't the only way to insure delivery to hand - or assurance of delivery to hand, either, for that matter.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> They do in NSTRA.
> 
> /Paul


Don't think the get the title "FC or AFC" running NSTRA? That was my only "point"..lol

Planting birds at a Championship on horseback last year spring. It was a fun weekend and yes, watching dogs run big is fun. Especially, good ones.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Oh, i'm not gonna say there aren't guys out there not doing this, and having some success. I just think my experience is the pointers that do the better work have had some FF type work done.  Either way, there is nothing as fun to watch as a big running pointer ....
> /Paul


Twenty years ago I hunted upland with a guy who had a nice GSP, this guy hardly trained ever, that dog would kind-of-sort-of retrieve, but he was a joy to watch in the field. Between his big running pointer and my closer flushing Golden who did mop up work and retrieved any birds that fell across water, it was a blast. As I get older I sometimes think about getting a nice pointer to compliment my flushing Goldens.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yes, and each of them only had to pick up a SINGLE retrieve in their career to become an AFC or FC. A light force hold and introduction to shot birds is all an FC/AFC pointer needs to have for a title. Folks seem to miss the point I keep saying over and over. In FT's for pointers, THEY DO NOT SHOOT BIRDS during the actual running of the stake.


Paul I`m talking retriever trials. If you go back in the archives late sixties into the 70`s you will see my dads name same as mine.WE NEVER FORCE BROKE A DOG!


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

jd6400 said:


> I think the question should be "who on here knows how to take a dog to a high level without FF" its a lost art ,pretty sure of one in this thread that can. Jim


Depends on what one considers "a high level". Even I can train one to a level high enough for hunting more demanding than most without FF, and I'll be the first to tell you I'm not much into training.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Rick Hall said:


> Depends on what one considers "a high level". Even I can train one to a level high enough for hunting more demanding than most without FF, and I'll be the first to tell you I'm not much into training.


Hence ,my statement those 23 fc`s that dad finished would do very well in todays MASTER level games,I would consider that a pretty high level.
Right back to to the question is knowing how.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> Hence ,my statement those 23 fc`s that dad finished would do very well in todays MASTER level games,I would consider that a pretty high level.
> Right back to to the question is knowing how.


MH level requires bird to hand in every single qualification. Not just one retrieving call back for a career. MH Pointers are a more "finished" dog. Also must back in every qualification. Physical and stylish attributes are not graded with near the emphasis of a Field Trial pointer. I've seen some really, really unstylish hunting dogs title at the MH level although, they back, find a bird and retrieve to hand all in one stake.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I probably don't know enough to even comment on this subject, but why start letting that stop me now?

As I understand it, FF is MUCH more than enforcing a delivery to hand. As Justin said earlier, almost all of their training after FF is somehow related to concepts taught during FF. I have also heard it described as a process that converts an independent contractor to an employee. It's another tool in the toolbox that I am not sure I'd want to be without. I understand you can certainly train a jam-up retriever without doing it, but my simple mind would be forced to ask why you would want to when this method works.

That said, for those who don't use FF, what do you see as the disadvantage - other than the potential pain/discomfort to the dog/trainer? This is a legitimate question aimed at furthering my knowledge of dog training in general. I do not intend to get into any arguments with anyone about this subject.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I probably don't know enough to even comment on this subject, but why start letting that stop me now?
> 
> As I understand it, FF is MUCH more than enforcing a delivery to hand. As Justin said earlier, almost all of their training after FF is somehow related to concepts taught during FF. I have also heard it described as a process that converts an independent contractor to an employee. It's another tool in the toolbox that I am not sure I'd want to be without. I understand you can certainly train a jam-up retriever without doing it, but my simple mind would be forced to ask why you would want to when this method works.
> 
> ...


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm pretty sure Hall's dog will pick up more shot birds (client and otherwise) in the swamps of Louisiana than mine will in Ohio and hunt testing, most of which people have a paid expectation to later eat.

Seems to me there's animal trainers and pet trainers. That's the only difference in training dogs and message board participants.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

RookieTrainer said:


> I probably don't know enough to even comment on this subject, but why start letting that stop me now?
> 
> As I understand it, FF is MUCH more than enforcing a delivery to hand. As Justin said earlier, almost all of their training after FF is somehow related to concepts taught during FF. I have also heard it described as a process that converts an independent contractor to an employee. It's another tool in the toolbox that I am not sure I'd want to be without. I understand you can certainly train a jam-up retriever without doing it, but my simple mind would be forced to ask why you would want to when this method works.
> 
> That said, for those who don't use FF, what do you see as the disadvantage - other than the potential pain/discomfort to the dog/trainer? This is a legitimate question aimed at furthering my knowledge of dog training in general. I do not intend to get into any arguments with anyone about this subject.


Love your opener! I'll go ahead and flap my gums, too.

It's true that non-force trainers haven't proved anything at the top levels of the game, but a few have made it to MH and Qual level. But for some reason, I believe it can be done, so I'm trying it. You asked why would you want to when the force method works. My personal answer is that it is much more fun for me to train without it. I'm still following all of the steps in the teaching process (plus a few more when needed), but I'm leaving out the force components. So far it is working. At 18 mos old, we are training at the Senior HT and Derby level right now and she is doing 180 yd blinds through cover strips and terrain. 

*BUT*, I train four hours a day 6 days a week and take her to work with me. She is a steam engine who loves drills and training. Her #1 goal is to retrieve and make me happy. She has delivered to hand 99% of all her lifetime retrieves since she was 8 weeks old. Only dropped birds/bumpers when coming out of the water when she was young. Not all dogs are like that and not everyone has the kind of time I do. None of this means we'll make it past Senior or Qual, but it sure doesn't hurt. 

In my limited knowledge opinion, I think the whole debate boils down to 1.) the individual dog's personality and history 2.) The trainer . Lot's of trainers screw up force fetch and still have problems with dropping birds, chomping birds, Freezing, no-going and refusals. I've seen that at every hunt test and field trial I've been to in the last 4 years. We see plenty of threads on RTF about it too. But at least they can go back to FF to help fix it... Lots of trainers screw up non-force training programs and create major problems. Both force and non-force trainers get compliant dogs and defiant dogs. It seems like the success of either would depend on how the trainer reacts to that dog using whatever method they choose. Or realize their method wasn't working and use something different. 

Just thinking outloud...


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

This perception of pain and suffering being a requirement of FF makes me chuckle. Guess that's why the dogs here are in such a hurry to run in and jump up on the table with their tails wagging...they're all big fans of pain, and must really enjoy being tortured. I never really noticed my sadistic side before. 

p.s. all are forced to pile...breed or religion makes no difference.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Always less pain than nagging four hours on end weeks at a time to get the same mission accomplished that could have been done in a weeks time. And compounds when you accelerate training to higher levels. 

Kind of like just having a finger chopped off versus having bamboo planted under your fingernails while you you slowly die from disentary


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> I probably don't know enough to even comment on this subject, but why start letting that stop me now?


You're only voicing what others are thinking, and I'd much rather the opportunity to be understood than be questioned in silence - unless this possessed laptop lunches this my second attempt to do so, too. Grrr...



> As I understand it, FF is MUCH more than enforcing a delivery to hand. As Justin said earlier, almost all of their training after FF is somehow related to concepts taught during FF. I have also heard it described as a process that converts an independent contractor to an employee. It's another tool in the toolbox that I am not sure I'd want to be without.


I've been a casual observer of FF for some three decades, and it appears that what FF is and does can depend as much on who's asking as who's answering. But here's my understanding of it: FF is a step by step, building block process that teaches the elements of a proper retrieve and that they are mandatory. The process bolsters, if not establishes in some cases, the chain of command, and the methodology of applying pressure which the dog can shut off through proper action provides foundation for force-to methodologies common to (US) mainstream training.

That said, it seems to me out here in the cheap seats, that the most important things FF does for the average Joe, as opposed to training pro or trialer, is provide a recipe that forces the trainer to use a building block approach.



> I understand you can certainly train a jam-up retriever without doing it, but my simple mind would be forced to ask why you would want to when this method works.
> 
> That said, for those who don't use FF, what do you see as the disadvantage - other than the potential pain/discomfort to the dog/trainer? This is a legitimate question aimed at furthering my knowledge of dog training in general. I do not intend to get into any arguments with anyone about this subject.


And my perhaps simpler mind can't help but wonder why I would want to go to the bother of FF when we've already accomplished all I would want from FF by the time my pups are old enough for it? Never mind my philosophical opposition to the mandatory pressure aspect of the methodology, it's far from strong enough to keep me from doing something I believed necessary to have a finished working dog. But we've already established the good habits I'd want from FF through conditioning that's mostly play for the pups, and they've no notion that there's a viable option to them. Or to doing anything I ask of them. The only thing FF provides that we don't have in place is the foundation for follow-on force-to methodologies that I've found no need for and see no practical advantage to, given that I'm training gun, rather than trial, dogs. (While I'm fat headed enough to believe my background qualifies me to speak to gun dogs with authority, I'm absolutely unqualified to speak to trialing.)


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> This perception of pain and suffering being a requirement of FF makes me chuckle. Guess that's why the dogs here are in such a hurry to run in and jump up on the table with their tails wagging...they're all big fans of pain, and must really enjoy being tortured. I never really noticed my sadistic side before.
> 
> p.s. all are forced to pile...breed or religion makes no difference.


I agree with you, and that's the reason I asked for disadvantages other than that. I have seen the same thing you have, but there's no question that at some point it is at least uncomfortable for the dog if done correctly as an introduction to pressure conditioning, and I think that's where most objectors, for lack of a better word, part company with the FF crowd. 

If it's not clear from my handle and posts, I am working on my first dog. I wasn't too hot on the idea of either the collar or FF as I _thought_ I understood it. After seeing the change in my dog after going through the process, I was all for it. When I had to give him a couple ear pinches to let him know I knew that trick too, his response was just what it should have been. Given my dog's drive and desire and my dog's trainer's less-than-complete understanding of what was required OB-wise, I don't think I could have managed him without it.

I would agree that it is 2-4 weeks of discomfort that might eliminate months of discomfort and nagging down the road as another poster suggested. Of course I am an tax and estate planning attorney, and we are pretty big on having tools and not needing them rather than the other way around, so it may also have a lot to do with who I am at this point. 

Thanks to Rick and Jennifer for very well-written posts on their different reasons for not using FF. I don't think it would be feasible for me with the limited training time I have, but I certainly respect you for believing in your methods and sticking with them. Rick, you are probably right that FF would be a much greater help to someone like me than someone like yourself, who has enough experience to know how to do it without the manual.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

It is uncomfortable for the dog...for a few short minutes while they learn how to turn off the stimulation. Of course, lots of things are temporarily uncomfortable for dogs while they're learning, like a collar on a puppy that's learning to lead for the first time...and pushing their butts down when we teach them to sit...and crate training...and a whole lot of other things they need to learn.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> It is uncomfortable for the dog...for a few short minutes while they learn how to turn off the stimulation. Of course, lots of things are temporarily uncomfortable for dogs while they're learning, like a collar on a puppy that's learning to lead for the first time...and pushing their butts down when we teach them to sit...and crate training...and a whole lot of other things they need to learn.


That makes so much sense, great explanation....thanks


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> It is uncomfortable for the dog...for a few short minutes while they learn how to turn off the stimulation. Of course, lots of things are temporarily uncomfortable for dogs while they're learning, like a collar on a puppy that's learning to lead for the first time...and pushing their butts down when we teach them to sit...and crate training...and a whole lot of other things they need to learn.


Sure. But FF requires you to do it with your hands - some would at least somewhat accurately say it requires you to inflict pain on your dog - and that's different for some folks. I would imagine that it's close to the decision to really physically punish a child. 

I don't have any kids, but I can tell you that I think I started to understand what my father meant when he said it was going to hurt him more than me one day when my dog required me to light him up to convince him that the whistle means stop regardless. I felt terrible, even though I gave him every opportunity not to have to go through it, and probably some I shouldn't have given him. And that was just pushing a button.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I would imagine that it's close to the decision to really physically punish a child.


It's nothing like really physically punishing a child.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> From an old post of mine regarding FF and pointing dogs (and mind you, I'm talking about the *real* FDSB National Championship where no retrieves are required, not the watered down AKC version):
> 
> _Regarding the need to FF:
> 
> ...


Sharon you brought back some GREAT memories for me . I remember going with my Dad to Ames and seeing poetry in motion with Mr Morton's dogs performing. Nothing is as pretty to me in the field as a big running, tail cracking Pointer. And the intensity on point is simply breathtaking with some of the good dogs.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Mark Teahan said:


> On another board.
> http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...topics/7972538/1/Force_Fetch_DIY_or_use_a_pro
> Seems a few don't care to, and think it's painful to the dog, and makes for distrust.
> What say you?


I read this several times.....We don't do things on a dime for a reason...If anything, they (dogs will do about anything to please us), understand us in more then you think, if we humans show them why.....they in their own ways will show us that they understand and will do in their ways provided will show you why.....If not, you will have a confuse dog that will loose trust in you.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> Sharon you brought back some GREAT memories for me . I remember going with my Dad to Ames and seeing poetry in motion with Mr Morton's dogs performing. Nothing is as pretty to me in the field as a big running, tail cracking Pointer. And the intensity on point is simply breathtaking with some of the good dogs.


Otey, glad I could give you a smile or two....and I agree, seeing a really top class pointer is breathtaking.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

RookieTrainer said:


> Sure. But FF requires you to do it with your hands - some would at least somewhat accurately say it requires you to inflict pain on your dog - and that's different for some folks. I would imagine that it's close to the decision to really physically punish a child.
> 
> I don't have any kids, but I can tell you that I think I started to understand what my father meant when he said it was going to hurt him more than me one day when my dog required me to light him up to convince him that the whistle means stop regardless. I felt terrible, even though I gave him every opportunity not to have to go through it, and probably some I shouldn't have given him. And that was just pushing a button.


You don't put a collar and lead on with your hands? You don't push their little butts down with your hands? You don't put them in a crate with your hands?

FF is not at all like punishment. It's about pressure conditioning and programming a cue...teaching a dog to respond to a stimulus. The stimulation becomes a correction later on, needed very rarely. 

As for inflicting pain...a *properly prepared* dog, with a person skilled in FF, is going to feel some very momentary discomfort, but as for intentionally inflicting pain? No. Or maybe I should say very, very rarely (and for a few very short seconds, once or twice), and it's usually going to be a dog that somebody has messed up trying to FF and sent here to get fixed, which is not that dog's fault. There are times I'd much rather pinch the owner's ear.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

to the OP...anymore questions,? JD


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

HNTFSH said:


> It's nothing like really physically punishing a child.


Curious, since I don't have children: how is it different?


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## Mark Teahan (Apr 1, 2012)

Now one of those guys says we have robotic labs.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Mark Teahan said:


> Now one of those guys says we have robotic labs.


Ah yes...the voice of inexperience, downplaying something they've never seen just to gather attention.  Best to ignore.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Ah yes...the voice of inexperience, downplaying something they've never seen just to gather attention.  Best to ignore.


I agree. It is best to just ignore this stuff.

There will never be a "one size fits all". Like Patrick Johndrow use to write, quoting his Grandpa: "If every man liked the same thing, we'd all be chasing your Grandma."

If you're happy with what you have, and your dog is happy with what he has, that sounds like a pretty good deal... No matter what training methods you use, or how much someone else likes or agrees with it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

RookieTrainer said:


> Curious, since I don't have children: how is it different?


Well, we pinch the dog's ear to make them open their mouth so we can put something in it. 

We don't pinch a child's ear to make them open their mouth...we play silly games like "here comes the airplane" while sending a spoon loaded with baby food toward their mouth.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> Well, we pinch the dog's ear to make them open their mouth so we can put something in it.
> 
> We don't pinch a child's ear to make them open their mouth...we play silly games like "here comes the airplane" while sending a spoon loaded with baby food toward their mouth.


And then we play a game of "butt-swat" on the opposite end of older children when mouth doesn't want to remain closed


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

You know...someone should post a link to this thread on thier site. It might help that poor guy thats stuck amongst the briars.


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## Willow SGD (Nov 8, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> Well, we pinch the dog's ear to make them open their mouth so we can put something in it.
> 
> We don't pinch a child's ear to make them open their mouth...we play silly games like "here comes the airplane" while sending a spoon loaded with baby food toward their mouth.


Sharon,

Great post, do you think when we get wrapped up with folks who want to talk punishment it a no win situation? Frustrating as I care for my dogs as well as people do their kids and FF was a blip on the radar screen. No ruined relationships in my small kennel, smothered in love and more than I can stand most days!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Willow SGD said:


> Sharon,
> 
> Great post, do you think when we get wrapped up with folks who want to talk punishment it a no win situation? Frustrating as I care for my dogs as well as people do their kids and FF was a blip on the radar screen. No ruined relationships in my small kennel, smothered in love and more than I can stand most days!


I like an old Quote of former Duck Call Maker Wendell Carlson: "Duck hunters' minds are like concrete - all mixed up and permanently set."

Who cares if someone else's opinion doesn't match up with yours/ours? If we are not happy until we convince others that our opinion is right, we're likely to remain unhappy. Some folks don't have a clue as to how a wonderfully performing, happy retriever can be trained by an alternate method to what they feel is "right".

So to answer Mark Tehan's orignal post subject line question:


> How important is FF?


The answer is, to some folks, it's extremely important. To others it's non-existent.

I know which side of the fence I sit. I'm happy there. I've trained dogs both ways and I likely won't go back. I did see on that other thread someone mentioned Jim Spencer's method from his book. That is the way that I've generally gone about it with many dogs as an amateur only forcing a few dogs per decade. It's worked well for me.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> Curious, since I don't have children: how is it different?


RT I don't think you're stirring the pot here and Sharon answered well. My concern would be that anyone who does choose FF or Collar that would relate it to punishment, does not understand either, and therefore should not deploy. Then there's the separation of human and dog. Ones 'best buddy' might be a dog and despite snuggling at ones feet, it's still a dog. Further, the separation of general behavior modification for either and in what context that is meant. 

Unfortunately in the Pet trainer world of gun dogs I'd betcha many collars get used to punish. Plenty of pet trainers holler, scream and punish Rover its whole life afield but love on that dog after the hunt. What kinda relationship is that??? Sounds bi-polar!! Many destroy 1/2 the natural ability right out of a dog by 15 months. And for FF...many a dog admonished for poor habits by lack of trained habits.

Punishment comes in many forms and I'm guessing people deliver it everyday. But not through proper FF or CC.


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## JMitchell (Dec 28, 2012)

My lab retriever is now 4 years old and she is a gundog. I never ff her, I wish I would have. I think I could take her further with her training now, since I am working with a couple of very knowledgable people that have ffed dogs. She does know the command hold. Her first year my buddy shot a mallard from hell. It dove and came up with its head barely exposed, my dog finally caught it and brought it back and she was cold and tired and dropped it to shake and of course the rodeo did start over again. She caught it again and never made that mistake ever again. She brought it back to hand. 

Every year she probably will retrieve around 250 birds, she never drops a cripple, but a dead bird if it is really cold out she will drop at shore and shake and then retrieve it to hand. Is that common with non ffed dogs? I don't think I will lose a bird due to her not being ffed but I suppose I could some day. My next dog will be ffed for sure.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

JMitchell said:


> My lab retriever is now 4 years old and she is a gundog. I never ff her, I wish I would have. I think I could take her further with her training now, since I am working with a couple of very knowledgable people that have ffed dogs. She does know the command hold. Her first year my buddy shot a mallard from hell. It dove and came up with its head barely exposed, my dog finally caught it and brought it back and she was cold and tired and dropped it to shake and of course the rodeo did start over again. She caught it again and never made that mistake ever again. She brought it back to hand.
> 
> Every year she probably will retrieve around 250 birds, she never drops a cripple, but a dead bird if it is really cold out she will drop at shore and shake and then retrieve it to hand. Is that common with non ffed dogs? I don't think I will lose a bird due to her not being ffed but I suppose I could some day. My next dog will be ffed for sure.




If taught CORRECTLY and REINFORCED CONSISTENTLY then the answer is no it`s not a common problem.Jim


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Swampbilly said:


> And then we play a game of "butt-swat" on the opposite end of older children when mouth doesn't want to remain closed


As a veteran of this (unfortunately), I guess this is what I was analogizing to.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

HNTFSH said:


> RT I don't think you're stirring the pot here and Sharon answered well. My concern would be that anyone who does choose FF or Collar that would relate it to punishment, does not understand either, and therefore should not deploy. Then there's the separation of human and dog. Ones 'best buddy' might be a dog and despite snuggling at ones feet, it's still a dog. Further, the separation of general behavior modification for either and in what context that is meant.
> 
> Unfortunately in the Pet trainer world of gun dogs I'd betcha many collars get used to punish. Plenty of pet trainers holler, scream and punish Rover its whole life afield but love on that dog after the hunt. What kinda relationship is that??? Sounds bi-polar!! Many destroy 1/2 the natural ability right out of a dog by 15 months. And for FF...many a dog admonished for poor habits by lack of trained habits.
> 
> Punishment comes in many forms and I'm guessing people deliver it everyday. But not through proper FF or CC.


Now that is a great post. 

I would note that I do not see either FF or the collar as punishment, at least not now. I did before I got into this addiction, er, hobby. I think it certainly helps to understand where someone is coming from, and it's hard for new people not to see either of these two things as punishment. 

Thanks to several really patient folks, I now know different.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

Mark Teahan said:


> On another board.
> http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...topics/7972538/1/Force_Fetch_DIY_or_use_a_pro
> Seems a few don't care to, and think it's painful to the dog, and makes for distrust.
> What say you?


I just let the dog decide, some days she will hold a bird, some days she won't. I use please alot, this way we build our "trust"! I want to build that trust!

As my training partner says," I don't ask my dog, I tell him, no trust issues here"! Where does these type of questions come from???


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## tuckerdutch (Dec 8, 2012)

I rescued my lab at one year old and she did NOT like the pressure of ff. I've taught her hold and fetch with just positive reinforcement. We've worked hard all summer and she hasn't refused a retrieve on bumpers, dead birds, live birds, a roll of duct tape and my wife's shoes...im just a hunter and don't do ft or ht because I have many very young human children who demand my attention so that level of performance works for me...every situation is different. Get to know your dog.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

tuckerdutch said:


> I rescued my lab at one year old and she did NOT like the pressure of ff. I've taught her hold and fetch with just positive reinforcement. We've worked hard all summer and she hasn't refused a retrieve on bumpers, dead birds, live birds, a roll of duct tape and my wife's shoes...im just a hunter and don't do ft or ht because I have many very young human children who demand my attention so that level of performance works for me...every situation is different. Get to know your dog.


 Nice post.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

There are some very good trainers who have taken their dogs to the top levels of performance and competition who do not force-fetch their dogs. Lorie Jolly has an excellent book on "positive training." But most programs use FF and properly done it need not create fear and loathing in either handler or dog. It's not the program that's important, it's the ability of the trainer to bring the dog to the desired level. As Chris noted there is more than one way to train. Find the process that's best for you and your pup. But train the pup, not the program.
IMO a properly executed FF regime is a reliable method of introducing pup to advanced training techniques. The key to FF is teaching pup how to turn-off the pressure and thus respond correctly to any learned command. It's not only about holding on to a bird.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

After I read the other thread, I see this little old guy named "Battue" sitting in his chair, refusing to buy one of those new color tv's. "My black and white tv is all I ever need!"


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

Sorry to chime in late and add nothing new but my point of view about the punishment thing. When I have a have a puppy come home one of the first things I do is teach a dog to turn off pressure. How? I pick my pup up from behind the front legs and hold him in the air. The pup usually wiggles a bit. I wait for him to settle down and when he does I go ahead and turn him lose. Is this punishment? 

Another one I like to do is around the same age I like to do is start grabbing my pups paws and holding them. If he pulls I hold a little tighter. Once he stops fighting I'll drop his paws. The purpose of this is to work on his confidence so I can trim nails successfully. I see FF as a very similar procedure. It teaches a dog to turn off the pressure as well as a trained retrieve. 

Has anyone here tried to train a non-retriever to pick things up NOT using pressure? It ain't easy.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

HNTFSH said:


> Unfortunately in the Pet trainer world of gun dogs I'd betcha many collars get used to punish. Plenty of pet trainers holler, scream and punish Rover its whole life afield but love on that dog after the hunt. What kinda relationship is that??? Sounds bi-polar!! Many destroy 1/2 the natural ability right out of a dog by 15 months. And for FF...many a dog admonished for poor habits by lack of trained habits.
> 
> Punishment comes in many forms and I'm guessing people deliver it everyday. But not through proper FF or CC.


It is these very trainers that give others of us in that business and the e-collar itself a very bad name. As primarily a "pet dog trainer", but with 10 or so years experience in retrievers, including 2 years running a 20 dog rotation every month or so, I really hate these generalizations. 

Here's a stupid story that highlights why FF likely exists and is sorely needed (unfortunately) as a tool for most trainers. 

I was once asked to train 12 Labrador retrievers to lay down. I was given a 5 day work work week to accomplish this. The preferred method was positive re-enforcement with a retrieve as the reward. These dogs would ultimately be collar conditioned on the command so re-enforcement with a pinch collar was to be part of the program, but as I mentioned, reward based training was the preferred method. 

Out of 12 dogs I ended up with 4 that would absolutely slam onto the ground in order to earn a retrieve. For these the pinch collar was used simply to prepare for collar conditioning. It was barely, if at all, used to encourage the actual behavior beyond teach the dog to comply quickly in order to avoid a pinch.

I then had 4 or 5 (I can't remember) who would respond to a retrieve fairly well, but required some periodic compulsion to help in induce the behavior. They just didn't have the drive to lay down 20 times in a row and since I had a time frame, they needed to do that to get the reps required in learning the skill. For these dogs I offered a chance to earn a retrieve and if it wasn't taken the dog was compelled to perform the behavior and then rewarded for doing so as well. 

The remaining 3 or 4 dogs were low drive critters who might lay down once for a retrieve but you weren't going to get it more than that. This group was taught almost exclusively with compulsion and even though they were also rewarded, I believe had I not done it this way I would not have accomplished the task in the time frame. 

In the end all 12 dogs learned the skill and were happy to perform the behavior in the field as necessary.

So, this relates to FF how? Well... It may be needed to a lesser degree with a very high drive retriever. In that case, it is more of a formalization exercise than anything else, as well as a method to teach the dog to respond to corrections at a distance. FF is what takes those medium and low drive dogs and makes them work for the owner. 

Let's face it. The majority of retriever owners aren't like us. If I get a low drive dog personally, I will simply re-home it and get another, rather than push a dog that really doesn't want to do the work with all their heart and soul into doing it. The average guy though, and probably the one who originally posted that thread, is going to need FF to make his dog do the work he wants on a reliable basis. 

In my example, compulsion was required to get 2/3 of the dogs to do the task quickly and reliably and to get training done in a reasonable time frame. I don't know how that plays to retrievers on a whole, but my guess would be it's a pretty good sample based on where those dogs came from.

That, to me is why it's important. You may get a dog or two in your life (if you're a 1 dog hunter) that will do the work without ever being compelled. The rest, and in fact I believe the majority are going to need to go through the process to become reliable.

NOTE: when I say FF exists "unfortunately", that's not because I have any issue at all with the process. It's because I wish they all had so much desire they never really "needed" it.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Great post Darrin. I have only raised and trained 3 retrievers. Your numbers work out perfectly. 2 of the 3 really needed FF to move along. One, I am almost certain did not need it, and in the process he went into permanent overdrive.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Very well said, Darrin.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Very well said, Darrin.


Agreed. 

To be clear my calling of Pet Trainers refers to those in gun dog training without attention to, appetite for, or commitment of: really understanding how to train a working dog regardless of 'method'. That includes those who (regardless of method) apply no known knowledge of working animal (dog) training and generally rely on luck, over-expectation, or 'natural ability' of a dog whereby 'natural ability' doesn't apply to the task at hand.

IMO - it isn't rocket science if you apply yourself but seems prevalent for people to shoot first and ask questions later. Or fix problems later (which is harder). 

Some may have low expectations for what they need 'in the field' but sure seem to ask a lot of questions about fixing problems when the low expectations deliver those results. ;-)


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> r
> 
> It is these very trainers that give others of us in that business and the e-collar itself a very bad name. As primarily a "pet dog trainer", but with 10 or so years experience in retrievers, including 2 years running a 20 dog rotation every month or so, I really hate these generalizations.
> 
> ...


This link pasted below is something I attempted to write a few years ago. It highlights a belief that I hold, which is that all dog training is a compromise. 

Since I wrote the below posted link, some things have changed. Another rescue was added to the pack. And I DID indeed choose to force break, not one, but two of the non-retriever breed rescue dogs. Out of those two, one is retrieving birds fairly well. The other will retrieve bumpers and other non-game objects all day with gusto....but she's not fully forced on birds yet. And frankly, I don't know if it's worth the compromise to do it!

The pits will be featured in a local demo (retrieving) this Saturday!

Chris - link below

Dog Training is a Compromise


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

2tall said:


> Great post Darrin. I have only raised and trained 3 retrievers. Your numbers work out perfectly. 2 of the 3 really needed FF to move along. One, I am almost certain did not need it, and in the process he went into permanent overdrive.


So then they all needed it Carol. It brought out the best in Indy at the end of the day.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This link pasted below is something I attempted to write a few years ago. It highlights a belief that I hold, which is that all dog training is a compromise.
> 
> Since I wrote the below posted link, some things have changed. Another rescue was added to the pack. And I DID indeed choose to force break, not one, but two of the non-retriever breed rescue dogs. Out of those two, one is retrieving birds fairly well. The other will retrieve bumpers and other non-game objects all day with gusto....but she's not fully forced on birds yet. And frankly, I don't know if it's worth the compromise to do it!
> 
> ...


Nicely written piece Chris. Food for thought for me when talking to clients trying to achieve EXACTLY your goals and objectives with, in many cases, the exact same sort of dog (rescued bully breed, I mean).

I've seen a lot of dogs in jobs they weren't really suited for and it always pained me to watch those poor animals plodding through their work because they knew that had to. 

Compromise. A great perspective to take when thinking about training an less than perfect candidate for the tasks YOU want him or her to perform. 

None of them are even bred to be obedient to a human so, compromise is always part of the equation.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

That was a good piece, Chris. Certainly gave this newbie some things to think about. 

A sort-of devil's advocate question here, that really came more from Darren's long (and good) post above: if you have a high-drive dog (I certainly do), Darrin seems to opine that such a dog _may_ not need FF, or at least as much FF. my question is what about the "control" and pressure conditioning aspects? Does "high-drive" necessarily equal "lots of bottom and ability to deal with pressure"? My high-drive dog will test at every turn (undoubtedly due in part to handler inconsistency) and has needed the pressure conditioning aspect for sure. But I seriously doubt my dog "needed" much if any force, whether FF, FTP, etc., just to get him to go. 

If you can't tell, I am hooked and trying to develop a training philosophy or framework of my own. May God help me.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> That was a good piece, Chris. Certainly gave this newbie some things to think about.
> 
> A sort-of devil's advocate question here, that really came more from Darren's long (and good) post above: if you have a high-drive dog (I certainly do), Darrin seems to opine that such a dog _may_ not need FF, or at least as much FF. my question is what about the "control" and pressure conditioning aspects? Does "high-drive" necessarily equal "lots of bottom and ability to deal with pressure"? My high-drive dog will test at every turn (undoubtedly due in part to handler inconsistency) and has needed the pressure conditioning aspect for sure. But I seriously doubt my dog "needed" much if any force, whether FF, FTP, etc., just to get him to go.
> 
> If you can't tell, I am hooked and trying to develop a training philosophy or framework of my own. May God help me.


The more years I'm exposed to this stuff, the more I realize I don't know.

My answer personally is this: I would not ever even dream of training a retriever without a form of force breaking, based upon what I know today. I don't care what level of drive the dog has. This is my opinion. I trained a GMHR mistake dog many years ago. I never FF'd him. I used what I term "the nag method". I would not choose that method again. 

I know there are some who choose, advocate, experiment and succeed with alternate plans. Good for them. 

I can't speak for Darrin, but I did notice what he responded with to Carol. He essentially wrote that at the end of the day, all of her retrievers "needed" FF and it brought out the best in the high drive dog. I'd speculate that if Darrin were training performance/competition retrievers, he'd FF every one of them....

Darrin?

If it works, it works.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This link pasted below is something I attempted to write a few years ago. It highlights a belief that I hold, which is that all dog training is a compromise.
> 
> Since I wrote the below posted link, some things have changed. Another rescue was added to the pack. And I DID indeed choose to force break, not one, but two of the non-retriever breed rescue dogs. Out of those two, one is retrieving birds fairly well. The other will retrieve bumpers and other non-game objects all day with gusto....but she's not fully forced on birds yet. And frankly, I don't know if it's worth the compromise to do it!
> 
> ...


Chris, I have a pit and the guy is full of energy and love to chase, I know that you would go about the same way we do labs, but are there any little tricks to use?
We have an all breed hunters upland trial that is local and as the name says ALL BREED, can you imagine rolling out a pit that can upland hunt?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I agree with you Chris. Not that I'm an authority by any stretch of the imagination.

Rook, I think every dog benefits from being conditioned to respond properly to collar pressure, meat dogs included. Heck most of the pets (various breeds) I work with get at least a pinch collar. Having said that, one can teach a dog delivery to hand without FF. One can teach a dog to handle without FF. One can teach a dog to do pretty much every task we ask of it, without FF. 

So, back to Chris's compromise. What is the dog wanting to do vs. what do we want from her, and where do those lines cross. 

Do I think a dog might make an owner happy without ever being forced? Absolutely do and have seen it more times than I can remember. Would that dog satisfy me? Heck no. So, where do the lines cross for the dog and the owner? That's bound to be an individual decision on the part of both and not really mine to meddle in.

And YES Chris, to answer your question. I do have two young dogs coming up for AKC hunting tests. They are both very high drive and they are (or will be) force fetched.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Chris and Darrin, thanks for the thoughtful replies. I can't imagine not FFing one of my dogs either.

Would you maybe start out with the premise that the high-drive dog (and I mean high-drive relative to the population of retrievers that would be represented in FTs and HTs, not the general population) _might_ need somewhat less force of all kinds? And would you say that _maybe _that type of dog doesn't really need to be forced as much as they need to be pressure conditioned? I would have thought just the opposite, but you guys are challenging me to re-evaluate.

I ask because I think I wasted a lot of time on the "force" part of FTP. In hindsight, maybe I ended up creating or adding to his steadiness issues. Plus I had no idea what a "steady" retriever actually looked like, so there's that too.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

All good stuff!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> All good stuff!


Best I've heard ........In a long time


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RookieTrainer said:


> Chris and Darrin, thanks for the thoughtful replies. I can't imagine not FFing one of my dogs either.
> 
> Would you maybe start out with the premise that the high-drive dog (and I mean high-drive relative to the population of retrievers that would be represented in FTs and HTs, not the general population) _might_ need somewhat less force of all kinds? And would you say that _maybe _that type of dog doesn't really need to be forced as much as they need to be pressure conditioned? I would have thought just the opposite, but you guys are challenging me to re-evaluate.
> 
> I ask because I think I wasted a lot of time on the "force" part of FTP. In hindsight, maybe I ended up creating or adding to his steadiness issues. Plus I had no idea what a "steady" retriever actually looked like, so there's that too.


I think they all need the same "amount" of force. That is, they need enough to show a proper response in a variety of conditions on all three critical areas (go, stop, come).

It may take more or less repetitions with a given dog based on a bunch of factors, the dog's intellect and trainer experience being paramount IMHO. It may take a higher or lower number on the collar depending on the dog. You may use more nick than continuous. It really depends on the dog and then how you define "amount" of force. 

Like I said though, there are a lot of people more qualified than me. I just thought it might be an interesting discussion.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Darrin, that starts to make some sense. While the initial answer to just about any dog training question is "it depends," it helps to have these discussions and try to develop some sort of decision-making framework to sort things out when you inevitably come to something like this. 

Thanks again for the thoughtful and thought-provoking responses on a very delicate subject.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

RookieTrainer said:


> Darrin, that starts to make some sense. While the initial answer to just about any dog training question is "it depends," it helps to have these discussions and try to develop some sort of decision-making framework to sort things out when you inevitably come to something like this.
> 
> Thanks again for the thoughtful and thought-provoking responses on a very delicate subject.


You're welcome. Just keep in mind, I'm not a big time field trial or hunting test pro of any sort. Been around a few years, not a few decades. There's a lot of learning still to be had in my dog career. These are just my personal perspectives. How they align with others and or reality is yet to be seen.

There will be at least one person to give me sheet about posting any of this and even more who are currently looking down the end of their noses as they read. 

And that's OK. This is what the board is for.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Backwater said:


> I just let the dog decide, some days she will hold a bird, some days she won't. I use please alot, this way we build our "trust"! I want to build that trust!
> 
> As my training partner says," I don't ask my dog, I tell him, no trust issues here"! Where does these type of questions come from???


I don't ask my dog either, but he or she knows what your expectations are....If not......then the dog will......


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I got a friend who trains gun-dogs, basically any type (I think he had a doberman in once) all the Dogs pointers, retrieves, setter, spaniels, even Mutts. which will be used for hunting are FF same as a Lab. Most owners want their dog to pick up shot game, on command. FF in that they are conditioned to the collar and taught fetch to off the ground through ladder work. Most of the other breeds are not FTP nor do they learn handling like a lab, they're to busy learning backing, solidifying point, any other little intricacies required by various breed hunting type standards. Still most pointer-setter etc. owners want a hunting dog not a handling one, but they still want one that does what it's told, fetch is as very useful command for any hunting dog. I don't know why one wouldn't teach it.

Side note I hunted upland for years with a rottweiler, she loved to hunt flush & retrieve only disadvantage was rottweilers are not inherently soft mouthed pretty much the opposite and the birds would sometimes come back a tad tenderized, wish I had known about FF and teaching a proper hold at the time, as we could've fixed it.


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