# Half English half American lab build



## alexmartin92

A friend of mine is breeding his black male English lab with a brown American lab. I can't find anything on the web about how this dog will look when it gets big, and no one I know has any answers for me either. I don't want to have an odd looking lab. Any answers? I'm interested in how the build of a half English half American lab will turn out.


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## polmaise

Tell your friend to not pick an ugly American lab!  and I'm sure they will turn out ok.


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## Bridget Bodine

Here is a female Father is an FC mother is a CH/MH http://sighttosealabs.com/Faye.html


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## alexmartin92

I'm just worried it's going to take on certain English traits and certain American traits. Or do you just think it will be a mid sized dog with an equal blend of both parents? Kind of like incomplete dominance when a red and white flower makes a pink one. It's an odd reference but that's all I can think of haha thanks


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## Billie

I doubt he will be odd looking per se.... With that type of breeding, most likely its an outcross, (no related dogs in pedigrees). So you could see anything- from looking like mom,to looking like dad. Or somewhere in between. Depends on who has the dominant traits. If you like both parents involved , odds are you will be happy with what pup you get from the breeding. Especially if you dont lean toward running Trials- or Conformation shows. ,more to a companion/hunting dog,etc.


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## Bridget Bodine

What Billie said
it will not be 50% of dam 50% sire , when you go pick your pup pick what you see on the day, meaning don't pick a shy pup and don't pick a wired pup, (unless that is what you want)
and make sure that the parents have the qualities you are looking for


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## 2tall

He will be tall and skinny with bad teeth and will spell words funny.


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## windycanyon

Hello, 
Our names are Marilyn Einstein.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

alexmartin92 said:


> A friend of mine is breeding his black male English lab with a brown American lab. I can't find anything on the web about how this dog will look when it gets big, and no one I know has any answers for me either. I don't want to have an odd looking lab. Any answers? I'm interested in how the build of a half English half American lab will turn out.


If you are concerned then maybe you should look at something else!


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## windycanyon

Here was the "fieldier" of the 2 boys from the same sire as above, and a half sister/aunt to the mom above at 2 yrs old---for the smarty pants of the group, I'm referring to the black dog! . 
I really need to see the other boy in that litter-- he sure looked show bred at 8 wks when he left. Both are very nice looking, nice hunting dogs. Everyone is really happy with them.


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## Jeffrey Towler

alexmartin92 said:


> A friend of mine is breeding his black male English lab with a brown American lab. I can't find anything on the web about how this dog will look when it gets big, and no one I know has any answers for me either. I don't want to have an odd looking lab. Any answers? I'm interested in how the build of a half English half American lab will turn out.


Why? Really a poor choice. I can understand the thought process of trying to improve the show lines. I still think it is a poor idea at best.


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## Irishwhistler

2tall said:


> He will be tall and skinny with bad teeth and will spell words funny.


Too funny!!! I just did a spit take with me tea!

Irishwhistler


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## Tom Watson

Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life here.


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## firehouselabs

windycanyon said:


> Here was the "fieldier" of the 2 boys from the same sire as above, and a half sister/aunt to the mom above at 2 yrs old---for the smarty pants of the group, I'm referring to the black dog! .
> I really need to see the other boy in that litter-- he sure looked show bred at 8 wks when he left. Both are very nice looking, nice hunting dogs. Everyone is really happy with them.



Anne, you actually have a breeding program…not just throwing too different dog types together to see what you end up with.  Not to mention, you generally don't breed show/field pedigrees- more on the lines of working show & working show  You have the BEST tempered and some of the nicest looking dogs that I have seen by the way…


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## windycanyon

firehouselabs said:


> Anne, you actually have a breeding program…not just throwing too different dog types together to see what you end up with.  Not to mention, you generally don't breed show/field pedigrees- more on the lines of working show & working show  You have the BEST tempered and some of the nicest looking dogs that I have seen by the way…


Thank you Raina.  I guess some people here never got to see some of the old pedigrees from the 60's and 70's still where there were actually Dual CH's and FCs bred to CHs. Some of the most successful breeding programs were involved at the time-- Candlewood, Hiwood, etc. The Europeans are still doing blended breedings. It's a long term commitment, no doubt about it, and you can't have too high of hopes for the modern show ring, but that's alright. I do think trends are swinging back around. My current litter is sired by a QAA MH dog w/ a heavy FC pedigree btw. He is nice looking, has nice structure... we'll see what 8 wks brings w/ this litter but based on the pups (only 3 in the litter) 2 yrs ago, I have no doubt they are going to be nice.


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## Nicole

With using terms like english, american and brown, I'm going to guess you're not dealing with CH and FCs.... so your guess is as good as ours as to what it'll look like. In the breedings I've seen with show bred dogs bred to field bred dogs, the field characteristics come through stronger.


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## polmaise

Irishwhistler said:


> Too funny!!! I just did a spit take with me tea!
> 
> Irishwhistler


Did it land on your Burger! next to the Coke?..


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## Jeffrey Towler

Nicole said:


> With using terms like english, american and brown, I'm going to guess you're not dealing with CH and FCs.... so your guess is as good as ours as to what it'll look like. In the breedings I've seen with show bred dogs bred to field bred dogs, the field characteristics come through stronger.


I think we can all agree that this is a good thing


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## Happy Gilmore

Why is the question. Neither venue will accept the other.


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## Irishwhistler

polmaise said:


> Did it land on your Burger! next to the Coke?..


 No Coke for me Lad, make mine a pint o' the dark if ye should be so kind.

Cheers Mate,
Irishwhistler


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## polmaise

Irishwhistler said:


> No Coke for me Lad, make mine a pint o' the dark if ye should be so kind.
> 
> Cheers Mate,
> Irishwhistler


Mine is Bacardi with no Fruit!! ..Now that's a right Irish whistler


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## Hunt'EmUp

Simple but true, like begets like, different begets either this or that, but not a blend. English, American brown black or yellow. If you have two dog that are the same in temperament, look size etc. you will get dogs that are like the two. If you got two dogs that are different in looks temperament etc, some will be like mom some will be like dad, but don't count on a pup being somewhere in middle of the two. Genetics just never seems to work like that.

And it's either American honey or fireball this evening but definitely not a mix of the two


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## windycanyon

Hunt'EmUp said:


> If you have two dog that are the same in temperament, look size etc. you will get dogs that are like the two. If you got two dogs that are different in looks temperament etc, some will be like mom some will be like dad, but don't count on a pup being somewhere in middle of the two. Genetics just never seems to work like that.
> 
> And it's either American honey or fireball this evening but definitely not a mix of the two


Very much agree with this.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Why is the question. Neither venue will accept the other.


I accept the show crowd, in fact I like a few of them. I hunt and hunt test my dogs. Therefore I look for Field titles. If I wanted to show dogs ,I would look for best in show titles.


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## Happy Gilmore

Jeffrey Towler said:


> I accept the show crowd, in fact I like a few of them. I hunt and hunt test my dogs. Therefore I look for Field titles. If I wanted to show dogs ,I would look for best in show titles.


by by accept them I mean mixing them and being successful in either venue. Any show dog would be accepted at a field trial if it could do the work. It could win. A field bred dog or any diluted mix will not win in the show ring. I will take a guess and say every single lab which has won in the show ring is near obese and couldn't run three field trial marks without hitting near exhaustion due to being overweight. Not saying it to be rude it's just a matter of fact.


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## Zach Taylor

Here's my 50/50:


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## BJGatley

Rutin said:


> Here's my 50/50:


Nice pics...Some scissors and aqulaseal will make that vest a little tighter around the front legs.


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## Zach Taylor

Only gets that way when he's sitting ;-)


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## Jeffrey Towler

Rutin said:


> Here's my 50/50:


Nice looking lab. Like Nicole said, when you mix field and show. Looks like a field bred Lab.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> by by accept them I mean mixing them and being successful in either venue. Any show dog would be accepted at a field trial if it could do the work. It could win. A field bred dog or any diluted mix will not win in the show ring. I will take a guess and say every single lab which has won in the show ring is near obese and couldn't run three field trial marks without hitting near exhaustion due to being overweight. Not saying it to be rude it's just a matter of fact.


Very True, I would love to show some of my field labs. To me they are great looking and can do the work. It seems to me that the hound people hunt and show there dogs at the same events. Can some one with knowledge of hound's expand on that?


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## straightsix

here is my 50/50











here's his father










here's his mother


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## Jeffrey Towler

straightsix said:


> here is my 50/50
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> here's his father
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> here's his mother


Sire of your pup looks in great shape. I would lean towards sire not being full show lines. Black female looks good.


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## Steve Strong

Here's Jack, my half-breed.


Steve


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## Nicole

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Very True, I would love to show some of my field labs. To me they are great looking and can do the work.


Nobody's stopping you from showing your dogs, they're registered labrador retrievers. However being that the standard wasn't thought about when the breeding was done, I'm not sure why you'd really want to have them judged based on it now.... it's a recipe for frustration and disappointment. Just because a dog can do the work, doesn't mean it's correct according to the standard. Chessies, flatties, curlies, labs, gsps, and plenty of mixbreeds can "do the work"... if there weren't separate written standards, they'd all be considered one breed.


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## Happy Gilmore

Nicole said:


> Nobody's stopping you from showing your dogs, they're registered labrador retrievers. However being that the standard wasn't thought about when the breeding was done, I'm not sure why you'd really want to have them judged based on it now.... it's a recipe for frustration and disappointment. Just because a dog can do the work, doesn't mean it's correct according to the standard. Chessies, flatties, curlies, labs, gsps, and plenty of mixbreeds can "do the work"... if there weren't separate written standards, they'd all be considered one breed.


I would dare you to get out a wicket and scale at the next show and disqualify all the dogs which do not fall within the "standard". Tell us people are breeding to a "standard" is laughable. Dogs are too short and above the acceptable weight range.


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## Nicole

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I would dare you to get out a wicket and scale at the next show and disqualify all the dogs which do not fall within the "standard". Tell us people are breeding to a "standard" is laughable. Dogs are too short and above the acceptable weight range.


Read the standard. Height IS a disqualifying factor. Weight is NOT. This is according the standard. When was the last time you were at a show that you feel a wicket needs to be called?


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## Happy Gilmore

Nicole said:


> Read the standard. Height IS a disqualifying factor. Weight is NOT. This is according the standard. When was the last time you were at a show that you feel a wicket needs to be called?


I saw a BOS that who apparently had a BOB which is within 1/2" of being too short. The only reason weight is not because of wording. Not unlike AKC judging manual. The bitch I speak of I know and is from arguably the most sought after lab show line in the US. Stubby little piglet she is


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## Nicole

Which show was that? You do understand that, according to the standard, bitches can be 21-24" tall right? That's not very tall. And yes, wording is what makes a standard


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## Jeffrey Towler

Nicole said:


> Nobody's stopping you from showing your dogs, they're registered labrador retrievers. However being that the standard wasn't thought about when the breeding was done, I'm not sure why you'd really want to have them judged based on it now.... it's a recipe for frustration and disappointment. Just because a dog can do the work, doesn't mean it's correct according to the standard. Chessies, flatties, curlies, labs, gsps, and plenty of mixbreeds can "do the work"... if there weren't separate written standards, they'd all be considered one breed.


I have no plans to show in AKC show ring. I was refering to the way hound events are held. As far as the standard, yes I agree mine where not bred to the AKC Lab Standard (thank God). Saying that they are not bred to the standard makes them all one breed. So a field lab and a field beagle are the same breed? One hunts in packs for fur, the other is a honed bird machine. How about a Field bred Lab and and a working german shepard, I know which one I would not want to meet in a dark alley.Your out late season goose hunting in MI do you think a field bred English pointer, or a field bred lab would be the better choice. Standards may have there place, but that lab standard needs emergency cpr


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## Happy Gilmore

Shall and should


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## Happy Gilmore

Nichole 90% of show labs are a hot mess and this is due to folks saying the same tag line "breeding to the standard". Have you ever watched a WC? Hot mess


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## Losthwy

Your terminology needs some work. Brown lab.
Your terminology needs some work. _Brown lab, English lab build_. By English Lab build I'm guessing you have confused them with SHOW Labs. English WORKING dogs look just like their American counterpart.




alexmartin92 said:


> A friend of mine is breeding his black male English lab with a brown American lab. I can't find anything on the web about how this dog will look when it gets big, and no one I know has any answers for me either. I don't want to have an odd looking lab. Any answers? I'm interested in how the build of a half English half American lab will turn out.


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## Happy Gilmore

Losthwy said:


> Your terminology needs some work. Brown lab.
> Your terminology needs some work. _Brown lab, English lab build_. By English Lab build I'm guessing you have confused them with SHOW Labs. English WORKING dogs look just like their American counterpart.


Or Canoe labs....


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## windycanyon

The English called chocolates "liver" last I knew. Brown is a fine term by me. Just a bit slang. Sounds better than liver actually.... but then I've never really acquired a taste for liver...


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## Colonel Blimp

> The English called chocolates "liver" last I knew. Brown is a fine term by me. Sounds better than liver actually.... but then I've never really acquired a taste for liver.


The UK Kennel Club Lab Breed Standard says "Wholly black, yellow or liver/chocolate. Yellows range from light cream to red fox. Small white spot on chest permissible." In common parlance Labs are said to be chocolate (though there are very few chocco working dogs) and Springers are referred to as liver. BTW the Management makes a magnificent liver and onions with a madeira sauce / gravy. Next time you're up this neck of the woods come and give it a try. 



> English WORKING dogs look just like their American counterpart.


The blackfeller below is actually Welsh but he certainly is a worker. Typical (if nice) example of FT stock in UK and Ireland. The yellow boy is also by a FTCh. and did a bit in Trials himself. Contrast and compare to the third pic, an award winning show dog from Crufts last year. Porker.





























You can't help but think if you gave that show dog a five month picking up season in these Welsh hills, starting slowly and changing that plob into muscle, by Feb 1 you'd have decent looking, good strong dog; Lord knows what his working potential is though. I sometimes think our labs could do with a bit more bone, but the show bench doesn't seem the place to find it, too much physical and mental baggage. I'd advise the OP tae gang varra warrily.

Eug


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## Dave Farrar

Like me, the 3rd dog is panting from walking around the show ring...


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## Jeffrey Towler

Dave Farrar said:


> Like me, the 3rd dog is panting from walking around the show ring...


Also, is that the lighting or is that dog white?


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## Mary Lynn Metras

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Or Canoe labs....











Is this what you mean??


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## Bridget Bodine

Stewart is my 6 generation of breeding, fourth of blending show and field lines. He is a working machine and not bad to look at. I could not get him fat if I tried! Blending field and show works if the breeder knows structure and ability AND temperament. The pay off is after several generations though. The first out cross will likely lack consistency....so if you are getting an outcross puppy expect a variable within the litter


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## Happy Gilmore

Bridget Bodine said:


> View attachment 16698
> View attachment 16699
> Stewart is my 6 generation of breeding, fourth of blending show and field lines. He is a working machine and not bad to look at. I could not get him fat if I tried! Blending field and show works if the breeder knows structure and ability AND temperament. The pay off is after several generations though. The first out cross will likely lack consistency....so if you are getting an outcross puppy expect a variable within the litter


What is your definition of "field lines"? Are we talking about HT titled show dogs or real field trial dogs? I don't see the point in blending the two. (Not to sound rude about your dog) but it seems these blends can not excell in either the field or the show ring. The seem to fall into the middle. I have seen them advertised as neither high strung or to much show etc. that of course is just mouth run. Seen hyper hot mess show labs and mellow field trial dogs. 

And BTW, I qualified my dog for Crufts. Lol


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## Bridget Bodine

My definition of field dogs is real FT dogs. This dog is about 90 % show at this point, with FC AFC The Marathon Man​ and AFC Hiwood Shadow ​in the back on the dam side (granted they are 5 generations back) The sire of this dog is a CH/MH . My feeling is blending gets you a better looking dog ,with better coat and yes, tail and yes structure with a higher desire and trainability than MOST show only bred dogs. 
I have a Grady son whom I absolutely adore, he is smart , trainable and a pretty decent marker but he is not the prettiest dog , he is high in the rear and as a really long tail and has hound dog ears, and a long pointy nose . When I breed him to a CH/MH/QAA x SH bitch I have (who made the cut in her large class at the Potomac last year), I hope that in the coming generations, I can start to improve on some of the structural flaws and keep a good portion of the drive. The bitch is pretty darn driven too! To EACH their own!!! I like a fairly substantial , ATHLETIC , more blocky headed (with proper length of muzzle) dog, and that is what my customers like. 
I recently sent a finished FC bred bitch to my guide friend in South Jersey. She is doing great on geese , and gets REALLY cold on water. She does not have a great coat and not an once of extra meat on her bones ...she is not going to work out for him and he wants one of my upcoming blended pups


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## Happy Gilmore

I can understand the thought process about it all. Middle of the road not too much of this, not too much of that concept. It's easy to sell because it makes sense to most people. 

I assume you aren't expecting to make show CH or field trial titles with the middle of the road dogs?


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## Hunt'EmUp

Paul "Happy" Gilmore;1176196
I assume you aren't expecting to make show CH or field trial titles with the middle of the road dogs?[/QUOTE said:


> Hmm the show probably No, you can't train looks . As for FT who knows, If the dogs got skill, goes out and does it. The performance world, has a reputation for not caring, if the dog looks like a grey-hound or a bus, as long as they can do. Enough time, enough training, enough campaigning, a bit of luck on a certain day and who knows. This is the great thing about performance events, it's in the doing. Heck even those Chessies and Goldens pull it out of the woodwork sometimes j/k


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## zeus3925

I have seen some very handsome FT dogs bred by Brad Belmore of Mach Three Kennels out of two of his FC's --Edge and Razor. They consistently turned out extremely good looking high performance pups. Unfortunately Razor has passed on and Brad is no longer breeding Edge, even though she is still running in the games. An example is Ollie below about 8 months. (Click on the thumbnail below to enlarge.)


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## polmaise

This one is a pretty good stamp!


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## Happy Gilmore

I just don't see the need for it. If you really want good looks there are plenty of great looking field trial dogs to chose from not to mention, there are many breedings of which to look at to see results. I just don't see the need to put NFC material into a CH. with some hope it will be making better looking dogs. The argument has been made both ways. FT bred for performance so has ruined the "type" and show has bred for "type" and ruined performance. So, along comes this thought to mix the two messes to hope they meet in the middle. Your gravy is too thin, mine is too lumpy. Mix it up and hope that the runny gravy evens out the lumps. Awfully hard to fix gravy when it didn't turn out right in the first place.


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## Nicole

Jeffrey Towler said:


> I have no plans to show in AKC show ring. I was refering to the way hound events are held. As far as the standard, yes I agree mine where not bred to the AKC Lab Standard (thank God). Saying that they are not bred to the standard makes them all one breed. So a field lab and a field beagle are the same breed? One hunts in packs for fur, the other is a honed bird machine. How about a Field bred Lab and and a working german shepard, I know which one I would not want to meet in a dark alley.Your out late season goose hunting in MI do you think a field bred English pointer, or a field bred lab would be the better choice. Standards may have there place, but that lab standard needs emergency cpr


Jeff, I compared retriever to retriever not apples to oranges. And if you thank God that your dogs weren't bred with the breed standard in mind, you shouldn't have any issues if someone says they're completely incorrect for the breed. 



Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Nichole 90% of show labs are a hot mess and this is due to folks saying the same tag line "breeding to the standard". Have you ever watched a WC? Hot mess


Pauhl, What 90% of show labs do you have personal experience with? I've been to a number of WCs. Seen some nice runs out of show bred dogs and seen some sad.... same with field bred dogs that came. 

I think we'll agree that nobody who's actually competitive in either venue (trials or show) would want to waste a breeding in such a way. On the other hand, 99% of these breedings aren't truly show bred (english) to field bred (american) as much as two "pet bred" labradors bred together.... one of which might have a blockier head so they call it english and the other is fine boned so they call it american. 

As for the show bred lab bash any thread that mentions them quickly becomes... boring. And if you waste all your super clever zingers now, whatever will you talk about when westminster rolls around next month?


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## Bridget Bodine

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I can understand the thought process about it all. Middle of the road not too much of this, not too much of that concept. It's easy to sell because it makes sense to most people.
> 
> I assume you aren't expecting to make show CH or field trial titles with the middle of the road dogs?


My Plan is to make the next DUAL CH Labrador. I am 52 yrs old, I figure I have 30 yrs to try and get it done... 
I absolutely do hope to create a dog that gets at least QAA/ CH


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## Jeffrey Towler

Nicole said:


> Jeff, I compared retriever to retriever not apples to oranges. And if you thank God that your dogs weren't bred with the breed standard in mind, you shouldn't have any issues if someone says they're completely incorrect for the breed.
> 
> Nicole
> I've known you long enough to know we are never going to agree on these labs.Its not personal.How many times since 1980 has the Labrador Club Of America revised the standard?When they revise the standard, do they ever happen to look at what our FT dogs are required to do?Have you happened to see the January edition of the Retriever News? These Retrievers that compete at the National Open Championship are what should be representative of their respective breeds IMHO .
> 
> Pauhl, What 90% of show labs do you have personal experience with? I've been to a number of WCs. Seen some nice runs out of show bred dogs and seen some sad.... same with field bred dogs that came.
> 
> I think we'll agree that nobody who's actually competitive in either venue (trials or show) would want to waste a breeding in such a way. On the other hand, 99% of these breedings aren't truly show bred (english) to field bred (american) as much as two "pet bred" labradors bred together.... one of which might have a blockier head so they call it english and the other is fine boned so they call it american.
> 
> As for the show bred lab bash any thread that mentions them quickly becomes... boring. And if you waste all your super clever zingers now, whatever will you talk about when westminster rolls around next month?


I could not have told you when Westminster is held.


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## windycanyon

Bridget Bodine said:


> My Plan is to make the next DUAL CH Labrador. I am 52 yrs old, I figure I have 30 yrs to try and get it done...
> I absolutely do hope to create a dog that gets at least QAA/ CH


You go girl!!! 

Paul, Come on.... you are at hunt tests so you've seen some very nice blends out there working. Elaine Brock's QAA yellow is a blend. Sonya's sister w/ Fred is a blend (they do play a little in the FT game too, and have done better than most!). Bob Morris has had some nice blends-- one QAA as I recall. Winroc has a QAA. Will they win in the show ring? No, but who ever said a lab is first and foremost, a show dog? There is probably a reason or 2 why our breed wins so few BIS's. Chessies probably don't either... 

Your breed (imo) has been kept more pure for the working aspects overall than so many other retriever breeds, however. Anne


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## Hunt'EmUp

Bridget Bodine said:


> My Plan is to make the next DUAL CH Labrador. I am 52 yrs old, I figure I have 30 yrs to try and get it done...
> I absolutely do hope to create a dog that gets at least QAA/ CH


Bridget are you showing AKC or UKC? I've heard the UKC is more lenient of Show placements for Field bred dogs, in the retrieving breeds. I do hope you continue to try in both venues, but fear you'll need an amazing constitution to stick it out. Most performance people will shut their mouths, once your dog shows he can do it. I think the show type are the harder sell they know what they want a lab to look like, don't really like the different. Still it's good to have people crossing back and forth, giving judges other things to look at, maybe we'll swing back toward a medium, I seriously doubt it but I'd like to be proven wrong .


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## Happy Gilmore

I commend anyone trying to make a DC from show labs. I do, honestly. I think most folks would start off investigating how difficult trials are to begin with and just get something which increases the odds of winning from the start. I understand your logic of not taking what could be "presumed" as the easy road. Hey, I have Chesapeakes.  Cry me a river. lol. I have been around plenty of show labs. And I'm definitely not pointing any names out for you Nichole. I live at a kennel and retriever training grounds. I see it all. However, I'm no pro. I've also attended many dog shows and I myself have been in the show ring ONCE I've been to advanced OBED classes in the past. I'm fairly well rounded. 

We hear it all the time, folks complaining they don't have a place to train, they don't have water, they don't have birds and on and on and on and on. Bottom line is that if you don't get out, "proof" your breeding by getting a title, training for hunting etc, then, just breed the dog because it has a few ribbons from a dog show, you've done the breed ZERO due diligence and really are contributing to the negative aspects which often are the cherished conversations ringside. 

Obviously, Bridget has a respectable focus and goal and judging by her signature has some titles and bred to titled dogs. I commend that anyday. Is it my cup of tea? not really. From the standpoint of generally speaking, I've seen far more show labs with a lack of interest in feather, lack of prey drive than any other breed which comes through this place. Dogs messing up at a WC is often training. I get that. I've seen it and volunteered to help run three lab WC's. Often, it's the first time I think many ever see a bird each year. I guess that isn't the dogs fault. However, when dogs are worked with one on one and have no, I mean ZERO interest in birds yet they are bred because they get a special ribbon one day.....that isn't good business. You definitely don't see the field trial breedings following that lead.


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## SloppyMouth

alexmartin92 said:


> A friend of mine is breeding his black male English lab with a brown American lab. I can't find anything on the web about how this dog will look when it gets big, and no one I know has any answers for me either. I don't want to have an odd looking lab. Any answers? I'm interested in how the build of a half English half American lab will turn out.


Do you mean "English" as is "show/conformation" dog, or "English" as is from UK field lines?


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## Bridget Bodine

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I commend anyone trying to make a DC from show labs. I do, honestly. I think most folks would start off investigating how difficult trials are to begin with and just get something which increases the odds of winning from the start. I understand your logic of not taking what could be "presumed" as the easy road. Hey, I have Chesapeakes.  Cry me a river. lol. I have been around plenty of show labs. And I'm definitely not pointing any names out for you Nichole. I live at a kennel and retriever training grounds. I see it all. However, I'm no pro. I've also attended many dog shows and I myself have been in the show ring ONCE I've been to advanced OBED classes in the past. I'm fairly well rounded.
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> We hear it all the time, folks complaining they don't have a place to train, they don't have water, they don't have birds and on and on and on and on. Bottom line is that if you don't get out, "proof" your breeding by getting a title, training for hunting etc, then, just breed the dog because it has a few ribbons from a dog show, you've done the breed ZERO due diligence and really are contributing to the negative aspects which often are the cherished conversations ringside.
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> Obviously, Bridget has a respectable focus and goal and judging by her signature has some titles and bred to titled dogs. I commend that anyday. Is it my cup of tea? not really. From the standpoint of generally speaking, I've seen far more show labs with a lack of interest in feather, lack of prey drive than any other breed which comes through this place. Dogs messing up at a WC is often training. I get that. I've seen it and volunteered to help run three lab WC's. Often, it's the first time I think many ever see a bird each year. I guess that isn't the dogs fault. However, when dogs are worked with one on one and have no, I mean ZERO interest in birds yet they are bred because they get a special ribbon one day.....that isn't good business. You definitely don't see the field trial breedings following that lead.


 This is why I bought my Grady dog, to get into the trials. His first derby we made it to the third series. The next two , out in the first. 
THis is also why I train with Pat Burns two-three times a year, to learn how to make a trial dog , or at least to give the dog the foundation he will need to be able to eval and either wash or send to a full time field trial pro. I know structure and I know temperament and I know trainability and I know talent, that is a pretty good knowledge base to start with.
I am sure I will wash out a lot of dogs...before even remotely coming close. I am also FULLY aware that I will have to give the dog to a pro show handler and play with bettering the odds. 

It is a dream and I am gonna try , can't get it done , if nobody tries 

Hunt em up a Dual CH to me is AKC FC/CH. ( I would settle for AFC though  )


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## Billie

Colonel Blimp said:


> The UK Kennel Club Lab Breed Standard says "Wholly black, yellow or liver/chocolate. Yellows range from light cream to red fox. Small white spot on chest permissible." In common parlance Labs are said to be chocolate (though there are very few chocco working dogs) and Springers are referred to as liver. BTW the Management makes a magnificent liver and onions with a madeira sauce / gravy. Next time you're up this neck of the woods come and give it a try.
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> The blackfeller below is actually Welsh but he certainly is a worker. Typical (if nice) example of FT stock in UK and Ireland. The yellow boy is also by a FTCh. and did a bit in Trials himself. Contrast and compare to the third pic, an award winning show dog from Crufts last year. Porker.
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> You can't help but think if you gave that show dog a five month picking up season in these Welsh hills, starting slowly and changing that plob into muscle, by Feb 1 you'd have decent looking, good strong dog; Lord knows what his working potential is though. I sometimes think our labs could do with a bit more bone, but the show bench doesn't seem the place to find it, too much physical and mental baggage. I'd advise the OP tae gang varra warrily.
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The black dog is stunning!!!!!!!


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## Jeffrey Towler

Nicole said:


> Jeff, I compared retriever to retriever not apples to oranges. And if you thank God that your dogs weren't bred with the breed standard in mind, you shouldn't have any issues if someone says they're completely incorrect for the breed.
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> In each case I referenced. The AKC breed standard was not considered. And if someone Says my labs are completely incorrect for the breed. I would say, they are not very knowledgeable on what a Labrador is supposed to be. I am short, fat and have a hard time swimming, I also don't like picking up ducks with my mouth. Maybe I can make the Lab standard
> Pauhl, What 90% of show labs do you have personal experience with? I've been to a number of WCs. Seen some nice runs out of show bred dogs and seen some sad.... same with field bred dogs that came.
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> I think we'll agree that nobody who's actually competitive in either venue (trials or show) would want to waste a breeding in such a way. On the other hand, 99% of these breedings aren't truly show bred (english) to field bred (american) as much as two "pet bred" labradors bred together.... one of which might have a blockier head so they call it english and the other is fine boned so they call it american.
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> As for the show bred lab bash any thread that mentions them quickly becomes... boring. And if you waste all your super clever zingers now, whatever will you talk about when westminster rolls around next month?


I don't know anything about the show ring


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## Happy Gilmore

Jeffrey Towler said:


> I don't know anything about the show ring


I think most of that was pointed towards me If you have a field dog it is not the correct "type" because the LRC has written the standard and all the judges get to interpret MOST of what that standard means to them except for a few written "musts". Don't buy in to any show person who talks about "type" ect. Most of it falls on the popularity contest and trends set by the judges. Every single handler who is a professional will tell you certain judges like a dog carrying more weight or, one with more stop on the muzzle or, more rear angulation etc. The list goes on. The standard and "type" is all subjective regardless of how the written standard is waived in the air.


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## HNTFSH

I keep a thumbnail of Banjo on my desktop as believe he's a nicely made lab.


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## Hunt'EmUp

Bridget Bodine said:


> Hunt em up a Dual CH to me is AKC FC/CH. ( I would settle for AFC though  )


I understand that however, as you've got 30yrs . You might try the UKC shows as a stepping stone on conformation evaluation, for the field-i-er labs you produce. It might enable you to put some show titles on along with your performance titles, thus a quicker result in Dual titled dogs, until you have what you need to make a mark in the AKC show venue. I know a few Golden people who have gone this way UKC CH-GCH with their field Goldens, who have FT points. Helps them not get so beaten down by just showing them in AKC, where they really can't compete yet.


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## CodyC

Heres another one of mine. Don't know how to blow it up though, it will get a little bigger if you click it. I think that mix makes a very handsome dog. He is only 9 months in that pic and he is 84 lbs and solid with not an ounce of fat on him. In my opinion, he would be the perfect dog if he would let me cut his toe nails, haha.


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## HNTFSH

CodyC said:


> View attachment 16711
> Heres another one of mine. Don't know how to blow it up though, it will get a little bigger if you click it. I think that mix makes a very handsome dog. He is only 9 months in that pic and he is 84 lbs and solid with not an ounce of fat on him. In my opinion, he would be the perfect dog if he would let me cut his toe nails, haha.


Ears too small, slight sway back and tail too thin and curly.


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## CodyC

haha dang man I hear you


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