# AKC Title or UKC Title - Which Is Better ???



## obsessed (Aug 3, 2010)

I know I am probably about to start a forest fire here but I am really serious. Which title is more coveted and why - an ACK Master Title or a UKC HRCH title ??? My take for some reason has always been that AKC seemed to hold a little more credibility. But to me using a real gun and no attention getting sounds in the field over rides not being able to speak at the line until being released.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Let me throw this out there...

The dog/handler team didn't show they were better than any other dog/handler team in achieving either of these titles. Since niether title is a competitive one, why would anyone bother with trying to say one is better than the other? So any field champion title is better than either HRCH or MH.

For those I know who are serious about the HT game but don't really persue FT titles for whatever reason, the goal is 

GRHRCH dogsnamehere MH QAA.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

AKC is more popular and well known.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Whats YOUR big picture?

Is it to have a dependable, nicely trained, hunting companion?

Is it to have a dependable highly trained dog to play the games?

Is it to have a dog that can do both?

Is it to start a breeding program?


Seems to me,, that it takes a very dedicated person willing to devote time to train the Dog and HIMSELF to accomplish any of the above.

I would think it would be better for you to spend your focus there instead of worrying about the letters on a 3.00 ribbon!

You get the dog,,, the games will come, the days afield will be more pleasant,, and people will want a puppy from you.

Gooser


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

1st retriever said:


> AKC is more popular and well known.


Not saying you are wrong, but do you have any stats to back that up?

# of HRC clubs vs. AKC clubs?
# of HRC hunt tests vs. AKC hunt tests?
Average # of entries in HRC tests vs. AKC tests?
Average stud fee or price of pup from HRCH vs MH?

Any stats at all?


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I think it depends .........AKC titles for dog's breeding pedigree and HRC for the fun for me. Dogs don't give a rat's rear end as long as they are picking up birds.........


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## Jason Vinson (Apr 1, 2009)

Neither carry more weight to me. I had easier access to more UKC test so that is where we started. It might take some traveling but I plan to start on the AKC this Fall. Like the poster above said, I would love to put some letters behind the name. I have some in front already.


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## Jim Person (Jan 5, 2003)

Why not both or either. I'm sure the dog won't mind either way..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

quote:

But to me using a real gun and no attention getting sounds in the field over rides not being able to speak at the line until being released.

Pretty funny right there!

Wingers set at hunt test distances make an awful lot of very attractive noise to dogs that learn what that noise is!!:razz: wether your readin the morning paper to em or not!

Gooser


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

A lot of good people do either one or the other and some good people do both.

I say the that is best, is the one is the one that has the most events close to you.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

captainjack said:


> Not saying you are wrong, but do you have any stats to back that up?
> 
> # of HRC clubs vs. AKC clubs?
> # of HRC hunt tests vs. AKC hunt tests?
> ...


No I don't. But at shows all you hear is UKC means not nearly as much as AKC. I only personally know of one dog with those titles. All the others are AKC. So I would have to say it is my opinion.


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## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

Someone start a poll. If you had the choice of a dog with HRCH and MH WITHOUT looking at or running dogs, which one would you choose? Everything else being equal. Age, size, color, sex, litter, price...etc. 

Both are probably nice dogs. I'd choose the MH personally.


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

Think I'll go make some popcorn.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I haven't ran any UKC stuff but it seems that an AKC. Title is more prestigious because its an AKC title. I only say that because AKC. Seems to hold a higher standard. By that I mean you Can get an AKC. Dog registered as UKC but not vise versa .and i dont have any facts to back this up im just shooting from the hip .but I'm just the new Guy. I'm guna shut up and watch this one go


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Which title is more coveted and why - an AKC Master Title or a UKC HRCH title ???


After frequent editing while composing this post, I found out I can't even win an argument with myself on this topic.

When you train alone often and have a fondness for the term "hermit", is it important for me to know....for sure? The cynic in me says, "Do I really care?"

What I do know (for sure) is there are 29 days until hunting season.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

What does Better mean? AKC is a better known by the general public ie Westminster. I run both about equally and find them essentially the same. The supporters from each group will argue thier minor points with great passion. Chevy vs Ford which is better. These kind of questions always seem to degenerate into name calling and then Cris needs to step in. The HRC structure allows more input from its members, however the organization has stayed true to it's goals. The differences that I notice has almost everything to do with individual judging, so the differences is not AKC vs UKC. Notice the titles on my dogs ,it should be apprent that all of them play both games. Some do better in one game vs the other,but again it's the individual dog not the venue. So which is better Chevy (AKC) vs Ford (UKC).


If we play nice this could be informative.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

There have been a couple threads weighting or ranking various titles and such:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16112&highlight=rank+titles

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61080&highlight=rank+titles

Now, as to which is BETTER, that's too open-ended of a question to get the answer you're looking for. If your answer is which one is better for YOU, then you would need to define what you're looking for in the dog.

But all political and venue correctness aside, I think the general consensus is stated pretty clearly in threads such as those given above as to which is more difficult to attain. So if one is more difficult than the other, then many would say that one is "better".


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

It is harder to get a Master title, than a HRCH.

Regardless of which venue is "tougher" it only takes 4 finished passes, for an HR dog, to get an HRCH. You can do it in two weekends.

It takes 5 Master passes, for a SH to get a MH title, and each pass, is going to take two days to get. They sometimes do a double Master, but not very often.

Basically, an HRCH, had to pass 8 finished series, (if it had a HR) and only "hold it together" for two consecutive series per pass.

A MH, had to pass 15 Master series, (if it had a SH) and "hold it together" for three in row, for each pass.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Let me throw this out there...
> 
> The dog/handler team didn't show they were better than any other dog/handler team in achieving either of these titles. Since niether title is a competitive one, why would anyone bother with trying to say one is better than the other? So any field champion title is better than either HRCH or MH.
> 
> ...


Interesting opinion


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

wojo said:


> What does Better mean? AKC is a better known by the general public ie Westminster. I run both about equally and find them essentially the same. The supporters from each group will argue thier minor points with great passion. Chevy vs Ford which is better. These kind of questions always seem to degenerate into name calling and then Cris needs to step in. The HRC structure allows more input from its members, however the organization has stayed true to it's goals. The differences that I notice has almost everything to do with individual judging, so the differences is not AKC vs UKC. Notice the titles on my dogs ,it should be apprent that all of them play both games. Some do better in one game vs the other,but again it's the individual dog not the venue. So which is better Chevy (AKC) vs Ford (UKC).
> 
> 
> If we play nice this could be informative.


So that is why I drive a Ford!


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

Howard N said:


> A lot of good people do either one or the other and some good people do both.
> 
> I say the that is best, is the one is the one that has the most events close to you.


That's the way I'm playing it right now. Just happens this season HRC events are more accessible.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

I like both AKC and UKC.

As far as running I am more relaxed in the HRC tests as i have alittle more latitude to run as a team with my dog,,

For some reason i find myself more tense running AKC .

But that is just me.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I am going to interject a GMHR.....

15 passes, six series per pass, show the freedom of a trail and upland hunt, and the control and skill of two blinds and two triples all in ONE DAY, to get one pass. X15 for a GMHR.

If a all around hunting companion is what you are after that is tough to beat....


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

limiman12 said:


> I am going to interject a GMHR.....
> 
> 15 passes, six series per pass, show the freedom of a trail and upland hunt, and the control and skill of two blinds and two triples all in ONE DAY, to get one pass. X15 for a GMHR.
> 
> If a all around hunting companion is what you are after that is tough to beat....


So you're going with Dodge.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Interesting opinion


Yea, I laugh at the way folks get so competitive about which hunt test venue is better, or more realistic, or whatever, yet these same folks won't enter a venue that is actually competitive. Whether it be AKC Field Trials or SRS for that matter.

Right now I'll run em all. If I get to the point where I can train and campaign a competitive All Age dog, I'll likely focus on Field Trials.


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## Shiner (Jan 24, 2011)

so glad you guys were able to clear this up for this rookie...


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

obsessed said:


> I know I am probably about to start a forest fire here but I am really serious. Which title is more coveted and why - an ACK Master Title or a UKC HRCH title ??? My take for some reason has always been that AKC seemed to hold a little more credibility. But to me using a real gun and no attention getting sounds in the field over rides not being able to speak at the line until being released.


Chocolate or Vanilla Ice Cream - both are good and fun - don't stir the pot.


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## Jason Vinson (Apr 1, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Yea, I laugh at the way folks get so competitive about which hunt test venue is better, or more realistic, or whatever, *yet these same folks won't enter a venue that is actually competitive*. Whether it be AKC Field Trials or SRS for that matter.
> 
> Right now I'll run em all. If I get to the point where I can train and campaign a competitive All Age dog, I'll likely focus on Field Trials.


What would a fellow have to do to enter a bonafied fieldtrial? I am asking as far as paperwork and requirements go. Any AKC registered retriever elegible?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Jason Vinson said:


> What would a fellow have to do to enter a bonafied fieldtrial? I am asking as far as paperwork and requirements go. Any AKC registered retriever elegible?



CHAPTER 8
ELIGIBILITY OF DOGS FOR ENTRY,
FULL COMPLETION OF ENTRY FORMS
SECTION 1. No dog shall be eligible to be entered in a licensed or member field trial unless it is an eligible breed that is at least six (6) months of age and is either individually registered with the AKC or individually registered with a foreign registry organization whose pedigrees are acceptable for AKC registration. Dogs from eligible breeds that have been granted limited registration or conditional registration are eligible to enter Retriever Field Trials. Spayed and neutered dogs are eligible. Dogs recorded in the purebred alternative listing program (PAL) and bitches in season are not eligible to enter Retriever Field Trials. For a list of eligible breeds, visit www.akc/events/field_trials/retreivers/eligible_breeds.cfm.
Continues....


See rule book at...
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RFTRET.pdf


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## Jason Vinson (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks. I have never been to one but I definitely have plans to check it out.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Jason Vinson said:


> Thanks. I have never been to one but I definitely have plans to check it out.


Look here for trials in your area...
http://www.entryexpress.net/


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## grouse dog (Jul 29, 2011)

how would people rate NAHRA againts AKC and HRC tests?


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

grouse dog said:


> how would people rate NAHRA againts AKC and HRC tests?


If they run mostly NAHRA, they will say it is the most well rounded

If they run mostly HRC, they will say it is the most "realistic" 

If they run mostly AKC they will say it is the hardest

Go watch and run all three and make up your own mind. Personally, I agree with copterdoc. And, yes, I've run in and/or watched multiple events of all 3. And I know people that run NAHRA and/or HRC because they can title in those, eventually. Not so much in AKC though.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> It is harder to get a Master title, than a HRCH.
> 
> Regardless of which venue is "tougher" it only takes 4 finished passes, for an HR dog, to get an HRCH. You can do it in two weekends.
> 
> ...


I'd agree the logic on this but I started in the UKC world with a Finished MH dog, no previous points Have 2 run 7 HRC tests to get the title, and only 6 MH if I never ran AKC. Series wise = 14 vs. 18, but test wise its 7 vs. 6, harder for my dog to be great on 7 days than 6 

If we're comparing HT titles though it should be Grand and Master National dogs. Grand passes are much harder than day test as are Nationals; I think the grand title might hold more weight with hunters.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I'd agree the logic on this but I started in the UKC world with a Finished MH dog, no previous points Have 2 run 7 HRC tests to get the title, and only 6 MH if I never ran AKC. Series wise = 14 vs. 18, but test wise its 7 vs. 6, harder for my dog to be great on 7 days than 6
> 
> If we're comparing HT titles though it should be Grand and Master National dogs. Grand passes are much harder than day test as are Nationals; I think the grand title might hold more weight with hunters.


Except if you ran 6 MH tests it would be over 12 days, not 6, vs 7 days for the HRCH.

Nice try though.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I'd agree the logic on this but I started in the UKC world with a Finished MH dog, no previous points Have 2 run 7 HRC tests to get the title, and only 6 MH if I never ran AKC. Series wise = 14 vs. 18, but test wise its 7 vs. 6, harder for my dog to be great on 7 days than 6
> 
> If we're comparing HT titles though it should be Grand and Master National dogs. Grand passes are much harder than day test as are Nationals; I think the grand title might hold more weight with hunters.


There are three ways to a HRCH title, that "make sense".

2 Started passes (10 pts), 3 Seasoned passes (30 pts), and 4 Finished passes (60 pts). For a total of 100 pts.
4 Seasoned passes (40 pts), 4 Finished passes (60 pts). For a total of 100 pts.
1 Seasoned pass (10 pts), 6 Finished passes (90 pts). For a total of 100 pts.

As far as I am concerned, the easiest way to title, is with 4 Seasoned/4 Finished. Running 1 Seasoned/6 Finished, means one less test, but two extra Finished, and Finished is definitely tougher than Seasoned.

There is not enough incentive in AKC, to earn a SH title. You have to pass 5 Senior tests to title (or 4 Junior/4 Senior), and that only gets you one pass closer to a MH.

I doubt that I will ever again, run anything lower than Master in AKC. I will still run Seasoned, because I think it is worth it.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

1st retriever said:


> No I don't. *But at shows all you hear* is UKC means not nearly as much as AKC. I only personally know of one dog with those titles. All the others are AKC. So I would have to say it is my opinion.


Would it be that all these "shows" are AKC events?

Just wondering regards,


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> There are three ways to a HRCH title, that "make sense".


Didn't realize this until after I passed my first Finished test, and once you pass one your stuck. So 7 x 15pt = 105

I'll give y'all the day count, (maybe I'd remember it I was ever around on the second day  I do dislike the 2 day MH test standard;the 2nd day is only the 3rd series. I can run 4 series in a weekend @ an HRC and I'm guaranteed 4 series. I can run 8 different series a weekend @ a NARHA. More experiences for me and my dog in one weekend. 

As for the title (only purpose = breeding) (right or wrong) my observations; the HRC title people notice is a Grand titled dog, whereas the AKC MH seems enough on it's own. It's easier to have an MH than a grand dog, so running those AKC tests is worth-while.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

AKC puts more emphasis on the dog work and less on the handler. I would go for the akc title. I feel an akc master dog is ready for finished but I dont typically think a finished dog is ready for akc master. 

Course I have had a few dogs that run both master and finished unsuccessfully that I put in my boat to go hunting, leaving the already titled dogs at home because the dog is just a better hunting dog all around. Says something for both games ....

/Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Except if you ran 6 MH tests it would be over 12 days, not 6, vs 7 days for the HRCH.
> 
> Nice try though.


the only reason it's 12 days is numbers of dogs entered.

HRC limits finished flights to 30 entries. if i only had 30 master dogs to judge, i could easily do that in 1 day. 

nice try, though......


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

My dogs have earned 12 MHRs, 5 UH-HRCH's, 1 MH, & green in Qual. That's about the order I used to "rank" them, but what I like best is training and hunting. If the judges set good teats and "competition" doesn't get the best of folks, they can all be fun - just not near as much as a good day afield...

If the tests aren't so good or the distances long and weather hot and the "character" the competition "reveals" is unpleasant, training at home beats the trip for me. I've learned a lot from all the games and enjoyed them all at times. My enthusiasm for the dogs is un-diminished, not so much for people who have to prove they're "best."


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I play a little golf now and then.

I play the Legends Bristlecone Pines.
Slope rating of 69/116
Beautiful course!

I also play Songbird Hills.
Slope rating 66.3/111



I can't decide which is better.
I really enjoy playing both.


I run AKC & HRC, we really enjoy running both.;-)
I do both for fun, not money.

I hope you get the anology.



*RK*


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> It is harder to get a Master title, than a HRCH.
> 
> Regardless of which venue is "tougher" it only takes 4 finished passes, for an HR dog, to get an HRCH. You can do it in two weekends.
> 
> ...


You can't say it is harder to get a MH Title over a HRCH Title. The correct wording should be "Takes Longer"


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> There are three ways to a HRCH title, that "make sense".
> 
> 2 Started passes (10 pts), 3 Seasoned passes (30 pts), and 4 Finished passes (60 pts). For a total of 100 pts.
> 4 Seasoned passes (40 pts), 4 Finished passes (60 pts). For a total of 100 pts.
> ...


You forgot one

7-Finished passes = 105 points


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

Bill Davis said:


> You can't say it is harder to get a MH Title over a HRCH Title. The correct wording should be "Takes Longer"


Exactly Bill.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

copenhawgen said:


> Someone start a poll. If you had the choice of a dog with HRCH and MH WITHOUT looking at or running dogs, which one would you choose? Everything else being equal. Age, size, color, sex, litter, price...etc.
> 
> Both are probably nice dogs. I'd choose the MH personally.


And I would go with the HRCH dog.

I don't run AKC, but was told by a couple people that run both: If you want a hunting dog you run HRC. These are very knowledgeable people who DO know and run both venues.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

I have seen dogs that can't hold it together at the line on a Finished Test due to the shooting and the duck calling by the handler. Those same dogs do well in AKC because there is no shooting from the line and very little if any duck calling. 
I personally run both BUT perfer HRC


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> AKC puts more emphasis on the dog work and less on the handler. I would go for the akc title. I feel an akc master dog is ready for finished but I dont typically think a finished dog is ready for akc master.
> 
> Course I have had a few dogs that run both master and finished unsuccessfully that I put in my boat to go hunting, leaving the already titled dogs at home because the dog is just a better hunting dog all around. Says something for both games ....
> 
> /Paul


 For HRC the heart of our programs is the Seasoned dog / Senior dog for those that don't know the UKC title ladder. That dog is all the average hunter could want. But are we talking about what a "hunter" wants or what "John Q Public" wants in a breeding dog?

Personally- And that is what we are talking about here our personal preferences-

Grand HRCH, MH, QAA

That dog there can do it all and if you wanted a little more top shelf add the master national title to that puppy! 

The original question was which is "better" In in the words of our LVL "It Depends". 

Run the dogs it whatever your heart and your wallet will allow, they don't care which ducks / birds they bring back to you.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Rick_C said:


> If they run mostly NAHRA, they will say it is the most well rounded
> 
> If they run mostly HRC, they will say it is the most "realistic"
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm miss-reading what you said here.... people can _eventually_ get a title in AKC just as much as in the other events. I've heard discussions of what judges to avoid, which tests to run, etc., etc.... 

The impression your statement leaves us with is all you have to do is be persistent in any of the venues, and it just ain't true.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

Here in Canada the only advantage that an AKC title has over a UKC title is that the CKC will recognize the AKC title but it won't the UKC. So breeders look for the AKC title. I run both HT games plus some qual. Due to time and number of dogs we have concentrated on completing the UKC titles this year. Have one dog that is QAA ( needs 2 pt for QFTR) and needs one finished pass for HRCH and then will start master. Other 2 are just starting finished.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Margo Ellis said:


> For HRC the heart of our programs is the Seasoned dog / Senior dog for those that don't know the UKC title ladder. That dog is all the average hunter could want. But are we talking about what a "hunter" wants or what "John Q Public" wants in a breeding dog?
> 
> Personally- And that is what we are talking about here our personal preferences-
> 
> ...


Didn't really care which title holds the most prestige but read all posts with interest. Actually it doesn't matter which if you have all of them.

I have two sisters, one has HRCH title and the other lacks 1 pass. The title only means that we as a team have met the challenge successfully. didn't really cae to run the same test just to build up points so I went to an AKC HT and watched one weekend since I had never seen aa master test. Ran the next weekend hoping just to get through the 1st series and be able to run the next. Both the judges were extremely nice and kept me from making a silly mistake handling my dogs. Actually one got a master pass.

I had made the decision of going straight to master from HRCH without rinning Senior but hd not thought what I would do if the attained their Master titles. GRHRCH, QAA, Nat Master sounds like a good program. After that if successful, who knows? The challenge is the important thing and the people you meet.

Thanks for your post. It helps.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

The titles that mean the most to me are FC AFC NFC and NAFC, cranking up yet another thread to debate the superiority of one non competitive venue over another is just plain trolling. A search will reveal that this has been done many times already. Too hot to go out and play where you are?


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

limiman12 said:


> I am going to interject a GMHR.....
> 
> 15 passes, six series per pass, show the freedom of a trail and upland hunt, and the control and skill of two blinds and two triples all in ONE DAY, to get one pass. X15 for a GMHR.
> 
> If a all around hunting companion is what you are after that is tough to beat....


 
very true just difficult to find clubs in certain areas


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

My dawg and I just completed his Master Hunter title in 6 straight passes after going 3 for 5 in Senior. The title and 6th pass also qualified us for the Master National in Maryland this fall. I'd really like to run HRC and NAHRA tests but unfortunately all their tests seem to line up and compete directly with other AKC tests, especially ones throwing Master level tests at them.

One thing I'd like to point out regarding the Master National versus Grand debate that's buried in here as well is, and correct me if I'm wrong, any dog with an HRCH title can compete at the Grand rather than the Master National requires 6 Master passes in a one year period (Aug 1st - July 31st).

Also, after reading and meeting the guys that are helping this special needs person at the Master National. HRC has really screwed the pooch on not allowing him to run their tests any longer, I'm glad I'm going to the National this year.

Here's the story. http://masternational.wordpress.com...welcomes-special-needs-handler-at-hunt-tests/


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## Chris Rosier (Dec 27, 2008)

Bill Davis said:


> You can't say it is harder to get a MH Title over a HRCH Title. The correct wording should be "Takes Longer"



I agree Mr Bill. 

We started in HRC and have had a blast running all levels. Got 2 finished passes this spring and will hopefully finish up the title this fall. 

I went to my first AKC test this spring and ran Senior, just to get a feel for it and also watch a few Master tests. Wasnt as much fun for me as HRC, but Nelli didnt seem to mind We got the Senior pass but like someone else said, there really isnt as much incentive to run the lower levels in AKC, so if we run anymore AKC, we'll go straight to Master.

As far as the original question, if you're asking in the context of which is more "valuable" I think that depends on your market. If you've got a litter of puppies and your target market is hunters or HRC people, they probably wont care whether the dog has a MH behind its name or not but if you're targeting AKC people, they will want it and wont care as much about an HRCH. 

Regardless of your preference or your purpose for attaining them, both are respected titles and I think one would be foolish to discredit either one.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

TroyFeeken said:


> Also, after reading and meeting the guys that are helping this special needs person at the Master National. HRC has really screwed the pooch on not allowing him to run their tests any longer, I'm glad I'm going to the National this year.
> 
> Here's the story. http://masternational.wordpress.com...welcomes-special-needs-handler-at-hunt-tests/


HUH? The last I heard he was running. I think there was even a snipit in the HRC mag about him running.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

JTS said:


> Really?????
> 
> So, a dog that began running in derby field trials at 14 months old, hunted 75 straight days starting at 16 months old picking up 600 ducks and geese, then running more derbys at 20 months old and then going 5 for 5 in Seniors and finishing with a Master pass by 23 months old never failing a hunt test so far is not a hunting dog anyone would want???? And never even running in a HRC event????
> 
> ...


I am sure it is because a dog is never exposed to the proper camo coture if it doesn't run HRC.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

The question is "Which is Better".

Over the last 10 years have run somewhere around 200 Master and/or Finished. The main differences is MH has 3 series,HRCH you shot from the line.
SOOOOOOO which one is better.....depends. Both I say.

I personally dislike these kinds of questions,seem into always degenerate to name calling.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

wojo said:


> The question is "Which is Better".
> 
> Over the last 10 years have run somewhere around 200 Master and/or Finished. The main differences is MH has 3 series,HRCH you shot from the line.
> SOOOOOOO which one is better.....depends. Both I say.
> ...


AGREED X10000000000

Each game has it's own idiosyncrasies; the end result is, for those that want a hunting dog, their dog is trained far better than most dogs that are used for hunting. For those that just run tests because they like running tests, their dogs are trained far better than the average dog.


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## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

I have ran both and can honestly say both have clubs and judges to definitely run under, run under, and never run under. Various reasons put clubs and judges in each category including just not being fun to run under. This is a game and is ultimately supposed to be a fun hobby.

I have had fun in both venues at some tests and have had terrible times at others in both venues. The people are what make the test/club fun.

Neither is better than the other, just different. 

In terms of the ideal in marketing pups, why not go with what has been said previously and go for a pup that best fits your program. That may mean that a NFC, NAFC, FC, AFC, GRHRCH, MNH, MH, or any combination may be what you are looking for. There is a market for sound healthy dogs with clearances and good breeders willing to stand behind their pups. Titles are important, but there are many other factors which influence puppy buyers.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Mike Tome said:


> AGREED X10000000000
> 
> Each game has it's own idiosyncrasies; the end result is, for those that want a hunting dog, their dog is trained far better than most dogs that are used for hunting. For those that just run tests because they like running tests, their dogs are trained far better than the average dog.


Jiminee you need to be really careful making a statement like this - next thing you know reason and common sense are going to break out


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Mike Tome said:


> Maybe I'm miss-reading what you said here.... people can _eventually_ get a title in AKC just as much as in the other events. I've heard discussions of what judges to avoid, which tests to run, etc., etc....
> 
> *The impression your statement leaves us with is all you have to do is be persistent in any of the venues, and it just ain't true.[/*quote]
> 
> ...


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Mike Tome said:


> AGREED X10000000000
> 
> Each game has it's own idiosyncrasies; the end result is, for those that want a hunting dog, their dog is trained far better than most dogs that are used for hunting. For those that just run tests because they like running tests, their dogs are trained far better than the average dog.


Agreed. The bottom line is each venue has something that the others don't have, which is what makes them fun. And, as previously said, the dogs sure don't care what test they're running as long as they get to pick up birds.

Someone else said these threads turn into name calling. I think they turn more into Ford/Chevy/Dodge debates. As long as they stay civil, it's all good.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

TroyFeeken said:


> ...
> One thing I'd like to point out regarding the Master National versus Grand debate that's buried in here as well is, and correct me if I'm wrong, *any dog with an HRCH title can compete at the Grand rather than the Master National requires 6 Master passes in a one year period (Aug 1st - July 31st)*.
> ...


You are not wrong. But, does that make the MN pass any better than the Grand Pass?

Personnaly I think that the AKC rule of 6 passes to qualify for the MN is used to generate entry fee revenue for clubs and the parent organization and not to demonstrate some skill requirement. 

I also think that the title structure in the AKC hunt tests is set up the way it is for the same reason - revenue.


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## kbobbjr (Jan 17, 2009)

TroyFeeken said:


> My dawg and I just completed his Master Hunter title in 6 straight passes after going 3 for 5 in Senior. The title and 6th pass also qualified us for the Master National in Maryland this fall. I'd really like to run HRC and NAHRA tests but unfortunately all their tests seem to line up and compete directly with other AKC tests, especially ones throwing Master level tests at them.
> 
> One thing I'd like to point out regarding the Master National versus Grand debate that's buried in here as well is, and correct me if I'm wrong, any dog with an HRCH title can compete at the Grand rather than the Master National requires 6 Master passes in a one year period (Aug 1st - July 31st).
> 
> ...


I personally watched this gentleman run at an HRC test earlier this year. I've also watched another gentleman that was legally blind run a dog in Finished several times. Both were allowed to have a "coach" standing behind them. I find it hard to believe that HRC would no longer allow either of these individuals to run their tests (without good reason). HRC takes great pride in accommodating folks with disabilities. Please provide a link to the story stating HRC will not allow him to participate in their events any longer.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

kbobbjr said:


> I personally watched this gentleman run at an HRC test earlier this year. I've also watched another gentleman that was legally blind run a dog in Finished several times. Both were allowed to have a "coach" standing behind them. I find it hard to believe that HRC would no longer allow either of these individuals to run their tests (without good reason). HRC takes great pride in accommodating folks with disabilities. Please provide a link to the story stating HRC will not allow him to participate in their events any longer.


The two gentlemen that came up to North Dakota a couple weeks back that are helping this young man run in the Master National stated that an HRC judge at the Grand was the one to dismiss the handicapped handler. They stated that the judge identified the duo of handler and helper as "cheating."

I'm pretty sure HRC doesn't want this to be way out in the open and I'm pretty sure they won't openly address this with a press release stating "handicapped handlers with assistants are no longer able to run our tests."


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

kbobbjr said:


> I personally watched this gentleman run at an HRC test earlier this year. I've also watched another gentleman that was legally blind run a dog in Finished several times. Both were allowed to have a "coach" standing behind them. I find it hard to believe that HRC would no longer allow either of these individuals to run their tests (without good reason). HRC takes great pride in accommodating folks with disabilities. Please provide a link to the story stating HRC will not allow him to participate in their events any longer.


I strongly encourage you to contact directly any or all members of the HRC Executive Committee and ask this specific question regarding Mr. Lander's participation, specifically regarding the Grand, and if there has been a policy change in the last week.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

TroyFeeken said:


> The two gentlemen that came up to North Dakota a couple weeks back that are helping this young man run in the Master National stated that an HRC judge at the Grand was the one to dismiss the handicapped handler. They stated that the judge identified the duo of handler and helper as "cheating."
> 
> I'm pretty sure HRC doesn't want this to be way out in the open and I'm pretty sure they won't openly address this with a press release stating "handicapped handlers with assistants are no longer able to run our tests."


I really find your statement hard to believe, that an HRC Grand judge would dismiss this team. First off the Judge would not have a say in this handler/assistant team running a Grand. This would be up to the Grand Hunt Committee. Now if it was found out the this team was 
"Cheating" during a test, then yes they could be banned from running any HRC Event, just like the average Joe handler would be banned for a certain time frame....


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

TroyFeeken said:


> The two gentlemen that came up to North Dakota a couple weeks back that are helping this young man run in the Master National stated that an HRC judge at the Grand was the one to dismiss the handicapped handler. They stated that the judge identified the duo of handler and helper as "cheating."
> 
> I'm pretty sure HRC doesn't want this to be way out in the open and I'm pretty sure they won't openly address this with a press release stating "handicapped handlers with assistants are no longer able to run our tests."


 
A lot of he said she said. Strong accusations. I also have seen Tommy at some HRC events and I think he was awarded a jacket at the Spring Grand at the banquet. Not positive, but I think this is correct. Any one else at the Grand banquet remember?


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

TroyFeeken said:


> My dawg and I just completed his Master Hunter title in 6 straight passes after going 3 for 5 in Senior. The title and 6th pass also qualified us for the Master National in Maryland this fall. I'd really like to run HRC and NAHRA tests but unfortunately all their tests seem to line up and compete directly with other AKC tests, especially ones throwing Master level tests at them.
> 
> One thing I'd like to point out regarding the Master National versus Grand debate that's buried in here as well is, and correct me if I'm wrong, any dog with an HRCH title can compete at the Grand rather than the Master National requires 6 Master passes in a one year period (Aug 1st - July 31st).
> 
> ...


Being qualified and successfully completing are two different things. My dog will have 6 MH passes but because it was split over the summer, he can't qualify for MN.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote from the HRC rule book,, and the seminar!

The HRC rule book states.

"Handlers with physical handicaps should advise the Hunt Secretary of their special needs prior to the hunt date. The hunt comiittee and Judges will make every resonable effort to accomodate the needs of the handicapped so they can enjoy and participate in all HRC/UKC hunt tests."

The obligation includes allowing a gunner to shoot the shotgun for the handlers with a physical handicap(incapacitation or injury-wether permenant or temporary) that precludes then from safely and properly operate the shotgun in the test."

I find it really hard to believe that that guy was dismissed from the Grand series. If so,, I agree it is a HUGE black eye,, and clearly against the rules.
Also,, the hunt comittee would have a HUGE say over this if it were indeed a "Judges decision"

I wonder what Judge it was that *allegedly* did this has to say as to the reasons??
Who was on the Hunt comittitte?
Funny no names mentioned ,, just allegations.

I bet there is more to this story!

Gooser


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Bill Davis said:


> I really find your statement hard to believe, that an HRC Grand judge would dismiss this team. First off the Judge would not have a say in this handler/assistant team running a Grand. This would be up to the Grand Hunt Committee. Now if it was found out the this team was
> "Cheating" during a test, then yes they could be banned from running any HRC Event, just like the average Joe handler would be banned for a certain time frame....


What Bill said, it would be the Committee's decision and I'm trying to remember if it was at regular hunt or the Grand, But I know that I judged a gentleman that was legally blind requiring a helper. I keep thinking it was at the Grand, but don't hold me to that. I do know that I judged a Pro at both Grands that required a special eye device (looked like a large jewelers glass for fine work) in order to run his dogs. HRC is very adamant about allowing people with handicaps to be able to run their dogs as ALL organizations should be.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

I have run HRC for years and just recently (American Water Spaniels were allowed to run AKC Retriever tests April 1st) started running AKC. That being said, I feel that the HRC scenerios are much more realistic than AKC...and therefore more fun to run. I also like the fact that after a dog gets his HRCH, there is still incentive to run through the points system. So far, I enjoy HRC more.
However, AKC titles are more recognizable by the general public. That's why I will get a Master Hunter Retriever (has a SH and just starting Master) and a Master Hunter Spaniel (needs one more Master pass) title on my AWS, Gumbo to go with his Upland Hunter and Hunter Retriever Champion.
Professor


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Both titles are nice , there not Field titles . But I don't think Tommy's case has anything to do with the original question . (I) was on the honor bucket if you want to ask me what I saw (pm) me .

Anyone should be proud to have this young man and any other run their test . Two different test two different titles . 

And I'm proud to co-handle with him at the MN


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Yea, I laugh at the way folks get so competitive about which hunt test venue is better, or more realistic, or whatever, yet these same folks won't enter a venue that is actually competitive. Whether it be AKC Field Trials or SRS for that matter.
> 
> Right now I'll run em all. If I get to the point where I can train and campaign a competitive All Age dog, I'll likely focus on Field Trials.


That is good you compete and run them all. Running them all would give you great exposure and experience. At present my pup is just doing Finished HRC. The tests are the closest to me. I am sure that is why most folks choose the test. They go to closest event, cheapest on gas and accomodation. IMO I am sure all events have their merits. However, Not too interested in AKC or CKC Hunt Tests. Love HRC b/c they demand steadiness. But if ever able and have the dog would venture to field! Not saying I could but just to see. Looks like a lot of training!! (Have had some opportunities to foray into field training and it is challenging. Keenly interested in the techniques. They don't hurt an HRC dog to do the distance either especialy for blind work. Challenge the blind.!!IMO)


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

I’ve never understood this question which seems to come up every few months. Why does one venue have to be better than the other venue? Maybe as other posters have suggested it’s as simple as the old worn-out Chevy vs. Ford debate. 

Unfortunately, these mainly egotistical, and I’d add false perceptions/beliefs, carry weight in the HT arena. 

I often forewarn young handlers coming into this sport to not get caught up in the venue/title debate as it will, in part, sour the enjoyment of training and trialing dogs. IMO, it doesn’t matter much to me what title you’ve put on your dog. Your goals with your dog are your goals alone. I don’t feed your dog, my children don’t play with your dog, I don’t have that personal relationship with your dog. Am I happy for your achievements? As a fellow dog trainer of course. But old Fido here with a JH title is the one I share my days afield hunting with, he knows when I’m happy or sad, and he is at the front door to greet me every day. THAT IS ALL THAT SHOULD REALLY MATTER TO THE INDIVIDUAL. There have been some posts of RTF members losing their dogs this year. My guess is everyone of them would trade in all those ribbons and accolades, regardless of venue, for more time with Fido.

The games would be a lot richer and more fulfilling if all venues supported each other.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Robert said:


> I’ve never understood this question which seems to come up every few months. Why does one venue have to be better than the other venue? Maybe as other posters have suggested it’s as simple as the old worn-out Chevy vs. Ford debate.
> 
> Unfortunately, these mainly egotistical, and I’d add false perceptions/beliefs, carry weight in the HT arena.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with your last sentence. AKC needs to allow clubs to put dogs HRC Titles in the program. People work hard to get the Titles they have and they should be recognized by all venues


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't know if you can really say which is better, I love HRC, others prefer AKC, and still others prefer NAHRA. I won't fault or bash them, The dogs are being better trained either way. I think the AKC titles, as someone else said, are more recognized because AKC is the larger more well known registry, again I didn't say better just more well known. I think that is one thing that tends to hurt NAHRA (sorry guys, no offense meant at all) is the fact that they are not associated with a registry. 

I know that UKC/HRC is big on trying to make the titles meaningful to better the breeds. AKC is supposed to be this way also. For a hunting dog, a trained dog is better than an untrained dog- don't think anyone will argue that. Hunt tests and field trials for that matter are for those of us who enjoy spending time with and training our dogs year round and PLAYING THE GAMES. 

So, in my opinion, train the dog, enjoy your time with the dog and play whichever game you enjoy. If you play and enjoy them all, great for you! Keep doing it. I have found the one I love and will continue with it and when we meet up let's just have a beer, wine, soda, coffee, whatever talk about how we love our dogs, campare training notes and try to learn from each other how to help our dogs become better.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Bill Davis said:


> I agree 100% with your last sentence. AKC needs to allow clubs to put dogs HRC Titles in the program. People work hard to get the Titles they have and they should be recognized by all venues


To beat the Chevy vs. Ford thing to death, that would be like saying Ford needs to allow you to order one of their trucks with a Chevy engine. 

Why on earth should AKC allow the titles of a competing registry in their program or their pedigrees? Maybe if UKC didn't maintain their own registry, but UKC competes with AKC on just about every level.


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## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

DoubleHaul said:


> To beat the Chevy vs. Ford thing to death, that would be like saying Ford needs to allow you to order one of their trucks with a Chevy engine.
> 
> Why on earth should AKC allow the titles of a competing registry in their program or their pedigrees? Maybe if UKC didn't maintain their own registry, but UKC competes with AKC on just about every level.


HRC allows AKC titles in their programs....... thats why.......


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Doublehaul

I think Bill is talking about the Hunt test Premium.

Gooser


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

JTS said:


> What?? Really??? That's a rather interesting interpretation.


What is interesting about it? It has been my experience also that the demand for steadiness is greater in HRC than in AKC hunt tests. 

In fact, with my own three dogs, AKC Master Tests have been very easy passes simply because the lack of significant calling and lack of the gun shot from the line have made it so. I have two very high drive dogs that are a challenge to keep under control in an HRC finished test to say the least.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> To beat the Chevy vs. Ford thing to death, that would be like saying Ford needs to allow you to order one of their trucks with a Chevy engine.
> 
> Why on earth should AKC allow the titles of a competing registry in their program or their pedigrees? Maybe if UKC didn't maintain their own registry, but UKC competes with AKC on just about every level.


AKC not allowing UKC titles in HT programs makes me think the AKC somehow fears the HRC. Who really thinks that if folks see an UKC title in an AKC event program that everyone running AKC HTs will suddenly stop running them and switch to UKC events?


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## Jason Vinson (Apr 1, 2009)

[QUOTE
Why on earth should AKC allow the titles of a competing registry in their program or their pedigrees? Maybe if UKC didn't maintain their own registry, but UKC competes with AKC on just about every level.[/QUOTE]

I don't think AKC is in any danger of losing clients to the UKC when it comes to registering dogs. Most HT folks want a dual registered dog anyway. If you are trying to promote the breed by displaying the top dogs of that breed it seems you would want folks to know all acomplishments that said dog has achieved. Would it be fair to say the more titles a dog has builds a solid foundation on the claims each of the titles represents? By not adding the HRC title is one to assume a dog carrying a MH title does not have what it takes to earn a HRCH? No. So why not add the title to give a true representation of the dogs achievments? Is it fear of the competition that HRC brings? No. It must be something???? Is it that if someone sees a HRC title on the books they might choose to run a HRC test next weekend rather than a AKC test? Hmmmmm. We might be getting close now. I am hell bent for stout to run AKC HT this Fall. I have the luxury of not caring "which is better" because I plan to have "HRCH my dog MH" by the time turkey season comes in next Spring. The fact is that it cost money to enter HT. Where there is money you will find jockeying. I'm not saying anyone is corrupt but I am saying that anybody that charges a fee for anything is always looking for a way to charge more people. To find new customers. One way of doing that is to get the clientele believing that your service is superior to another. So which one is better? Akc or HRC?? I'll keep an eye on this thread and surely the members of the RTF will conclude with a definite answer soon.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

captainjack said:


> AKC not allowing UKC titles in HT programs makes me think the AKC somehow fears the HRC. Who really thinks that if folks see an UKC title in an AKC event program that everyone running AKC HTs will suddenly stop running them and switch to UKC events?


Of course they do. We have already learned in this thread that your dog can't hunt unless it runs HRC, that HRC dogs are steadier, HRC tests are exactly like real hunting since you hold a real gun and wear face paint and that the Grand is tougher than the MN.

I am surprised that anyone at all still runs AKC tests. It *MUST* be because they don't allow those HRCHs in the premium. 

Seriously folks, if you would take off your tin foil hats and stop hiding from the AKC's black helos, you might enjoy yourself a little more. The AKC is not out to get you. It is just a game with dogs.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Since every single handler that I know runs BOTH the HRC and AKC sides, the entire thing strikes me as silly, from both sides. I run both, I judge both, and I enjoy both. Back to your regularly scheduled bickering match...


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

I love Dog games, They are a blast. But I do only run AKC because they are here in my backyard. I would love to run HRC hunt test but i cant afford to drive 8-12 hours to go to a hunt test when i can go to a akc hunt test in 30 mins on the same weekend.

Now I really do wish one of the 5 clubs we have here in idaho would go to a akc and hrc club. But for some reason alot of people around here are aginst it. If I had time I would start up a HRC club here But it wont happen.. Next year when my pup is old enough, I'm going to travel to montana and go to a HRC test.....


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## Jim Person (Jan 5, 2003)

I run all 3 and hunt both waterfowl, upland,and whitetail I drive a Ford Truck and like to fish too...


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jim Person said:


> I run all 3 and hunt both waterfowl, upland,and whitetail I drive a Ford Truck and like to fish too...


Your kidding right? Ya'll got that stuff in Massasappi? Gosh darn ma.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

You know if you allowed the UKC titles in teh program, then you could point to the HRCH that is blowing up and say, SEE THE HRC DOGS CAN"T HANG.....

Not allowing the other titles in seems petty to me. Like it was mentioned earlier, the dogs don't care it seems only some of the people do. I like My NAHRA titled dogs, enjoy running APLA from time to time, hope with the young one to be GMPR GMHR HRCH LACY MH...... But that is a ways down the road. 

So would that be a Ford body, a chevy transmission, a dodge engine with a toyota frame?


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

The dog likes both games. Doesn't care which is which... well, will probably like the one that has the most flyers!


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

What is it with questions like this on RTF lately? To the original poster, do you really think any good can come out of this question? I can answer for you, No. Questions like this always end up in an argument between folks who are otherwise friendly.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I like to run both. Just more time with my dog. They have their differences and I believe my dog benefits from those differences. I've put my dog in as many different hunting scenerios as possible so that he can learn and become as proficient a hunter as possible. Kind of the same philosophy with running UKC and AKC tests.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Brian Cockfield said:


> What is it with questions like this on RTF lately? To the original poster, do you really think any good can come out of this question? I can answer for you, No. Questions like this always end up in an argument between folks who are otherwise friendly.


I was thinking that for 9 pages this has been rather a friendly discussion! Might have something to do with the question about what to do with client dogs when it is too hot to train......


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

limiman12 said:


> I was thinking that for 9 pages this has been rather a friendly discussion! Might have something to do with the question about what to do with client dogs when it is too hot to train......


It has been friendlier than some other similar topics posted lately but it's Ford/Chevy, it's all opinion and not much else and someone usually gets their panties in a wad.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I enjoy both HRC and AKC HT. In AKC I particularly enjoy the live flyers. In HRC I enjoy handling the gun. I think my dog likes HRC better because he is a lot less steady in HRC! But then again he digs those flyers. I hunt a lot and therefore own a lot of camo and don't mind wearing it. I don't understand those who get all twisted up about that. It is what it is. If I had to wear pink to run AKC, I would go buy some pink and wouldn't bitch about it. It is what it is.

If NAHRA had tests close by here I would at the very least give them a try as well. They had a club here many years ago and I meant to give them a try but never did. I agree with the poster who said their lack of affiliation with a registry is an issue. I think nearly everyone understands that. Everyone likes their dogs titles/degrees to show up on a pedigree.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> I enjoy both HRC and AKC HT. In AKC I particularly enjoy the live flyers. In HRC I enjoy handling the gun. I think my dog likes HRC better because he is a lot less steady in HRC! But then again he digs those flyers. I hunt a lot and therefore own a lot of camo and don't mind wearing it. I don't understand those who get all twisted up about that. It is what it is. If I had to wear pink to run AKC, I would go buy some pink and wouldn't bitch about it. It is what it is.
> 
> If NAHRA had tests close by here I would at the very least give them a try as well. They had a club here many years ago and I meant to give them a try but never did. I agree with the poster who said their lack of affiliation with a registry is an issue. I think nearly everyone understands that. Everyone likes their dogs titles/degrees to show up on a pedigree.


You should come to our hunt this weekend. We flew HRC judges in from the east coast and we're shooting fliers for finished. Gonna be a great weekend...

/Paul

Dusky HRC


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

As long as they are out working their dogs, using *real* birds, it's all good.

Big Picture Regards,

Lisa


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Miss Van Loo!!!!

Welcome back!

We Missed you!!!

Ya need to figger out a topic for an INTELLIGENT thread!!:razz::razz:

Gooser


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## tankerlab (Feb 26, 2008)

Jim Danis said:


> I like to run both. Just more time with my dog. They have their differences and I believe my dog benefits from those differences. I've put my dog in as many different hunting scenerios as possible so that he can learn and become as proficient a hunter as possible. Kind of the same philosophy with running UKC and AKC tests.


I agree. I started out running HRC with my dog Tanker and he has his Upland Title and Finished Title while he was two yrs old. Then I ran in the Grand. Then last Fall and this Spring I decided to try AKC Master and Tanker went 6 for 7 and just got his Master Title and Qualified for the 2011 Master Nationals and is headed to the East Coast for the Master Nationals end of Sept. 

Doing both UKC and AKC I feel Finished and Master test are equal. Mean the same. Hold the same weight... Now... Depending on your dog, one can be easier than the other. I believe Master was a lot easier than Finished. HRC your dog has to HEEL "UNDER CONTROL" to the line. Master had dogs up to 6 feet out in front of the handlers. HRC you shoot a REAL GUN and grab rounds at the line, load the gun, shoot the gun... All things that work my dog up more and was harder... HRC there is no easy quack, quack "Look here" for your retrieve out in the field. Your dog has to follow the gun in HRC and be more attentive. HRC and AKC are both Hunt Test but HRC is far more advanced at REAL Hunting simulation... Talk to your dog on the line (You do while Hunting...) Must wear camo clothing... (You do while Hunting...) For evening things out I like AKC and how they judge line manners. The grand is way too tight and picky. As long as the dog is under control and listens without running all around knocking over the bucket, Gun, jumping in the water. That should be good as it is when actually Hunting... So both have their pros and cons but with the High Strung maniac I have AKC seemed easier...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Sister Marcella would have a field day with you and your paragraph construction!!!


Gooser


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Ya need to figger out a topic for an INTELLIGENT thread!!:razz::razz:
> 
> Gooser



Whyever for?

Rock'n The GDG Regards;

Lisa


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## Larry Thompson1 (Apr 19, 2011)

I run both but begin in HRC and then AKC. HRCH title by 2 MH by 3. 7 for 7 MH tests then dropped the eigth on the last series. Darn ruined a perfect record. I like to run youg dogs in HRC to get them used to the gun and swinging off of it to the birds, seem to transfer into hunting for real better for the dogs. The MH title is for breeding recognition, seems every one wants a MH pup. 3 yr old dog going to the grand soon and then the Master national.

If we pass both this fall my freinds say they won't be able to talk to me.

I say they have they don't have much to say anyway. Ha Ha.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

ltrollin said:


> I run both but begin in HRC and then AKC. HRCH title by 2 MH by 3. *7 for 7 MH tests then dropped the eigth on the last series.* Darn ruined a perfect record. I like to run youg dogs in HRC to get them used to the gun and swinging off of it to the birds, seem to transfer into hunting for real better for the dogs. The MH title is for breeding recognition, seems every one wants a MH pup. 3 yr old dog going to the grand soon and then the Master national.
> 
> ...


I see this *(Bolded)* more often than not. A couple of posts above the HRCH pup went 6 for 7. A good friend and training partner went 6 for 7 , I believe, after getting his HRCH. I'd expect that most quality MH dogs would have similar success if they ran HRC Finished tests. A good dog/handler team is a good dog/handler team. HRC folks spend a few training sessions with flyers and go run Master and the AKC folks spend a few sessions on a bucket with a duck call and gun and go run Finished.

One thing we should all agree on a GRHRCH dogsnamehere MH is better than a GRHRCH or MH alone.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> You should come to our hunt this weekend. We flew HRC judges in from the east coast and we're shooting fliers for finished. Gonna be a great weekend...
> 
> /Paul
> 
> Dusky HRC


who did you get from the east coast, Paul?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

paul young said:


> who did you get from the east coast, Paul?


Cade Gentry and Derrick Watson. Spent the day with them. Cool guys and set a couple of nice series. Gonna be a fun hunt


/Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Cade Gentry and Derrick Watson. Spent the day with them. Cool guys and set a couple of nice series. Gonna be a fun hunt
> 
> 
> /Paul


thanks for the reply! i hope you all have a great weekend!-Paul


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Cade Gentry and Derrick Watson. Spent the day with them. Cool guys and set a couple of nice series. Gonna be a fun hunt
> 
> 
> /Paul


I trained with Cade once. Seems like a good guy and definitely has nice dogs. The training group for the day was Cade, Jerry Day and me....talk about being out of your league. I felt like I should have been on the short bus!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

limiman12 said:


> Not allowing the other titles in seems petty to me.


I agree that not putting HRC or NAHRA titles in the program seems VERY petty. HRC isn't afraid to show all titles/degrees/designations in their program. Add that to the fact that AKC tried to force all of their judges to quit judging HRC a few years ago and it definitely gives the picture of the AKC leadership (not at the club level, but at the national level) being very petty and possibly even somewhat afraid of HRC, when they shouldn't be.

I'm surprised nobody has said it yet...

It's all just dog's pickin' up birds...or not.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

HuntinDawg said:


> I agree that not putting HRC or NAHRA titles in the program seems VERY petty. HRC isn't afraid to show all titles/degrees/designations in their program. Add that to the fact that AKC tried to force all of their judges to quit judging HRC a few years ago and it definitely gives the picture of the AKC leadership (not at the club level, but at the national level) being very petty and possibly even somewhat afraid of HRC, when they shouldn't be.
> 
> I'm surprised nobody has said it yet...
> 
> It's all just dog's pickin' up birds...or not.


Not petty at all, it makes good business since. If HRC/NAHRA are included in the title, AKC just devalued their own title.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

mngundog said:


> Not petty at all, it makes good business since. If HRC/NAHRA are included in the title, AKC just devalued their own title.


How much did the value of the title go down? Can you put a dollar value on it? Do you have any data to back up your statement? 

How many folks do you think hear this kind of statement and say, AKC is nothing but a bunch of arrogant so & so's. This is the biggest criticism I hear regarding AKC. Not the dogs, not the tests, just the people.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

mngundog said:


> Not petty at all, it makes good business since. If HRC/NAHRA are included in the title, AKC just devalued their own title.


I'm not sure whether you know what I'm referring to or not. I'm not saying HRC titles should appear on AKC PEDIGREES. That would be a logistical nightmare to have to verify the titles and there is absolutely no reason they should do that and if that is what you are talking about then, yes, it would devalue the AKC titles or over-value the others. I'm talking about the programs you get when you go to run a test. The programs list sire, dam, age, owner, handler, etc. In HRC, if you list your dog's AKC titles when signing up for the test they will show those alongside your dog's registered name along with the HRC titles, same for the sire and dam. In AKC, they won't list those titles in the program. I don't think that would devalue the AKC titles, it is just a program and it would actually be pretty informative IMO. You see an untitled dog running in Master, for example, you think he is new to HT, but if he was listed as a HRCH you would know he wasn't new to HT, but in the absence of AKC titles you would know that he was crossing over to try a new venue. You might even go welcome the handler to the world of AKC HT...plus it would just be a nice thing to reciprocate since HRC does it in their programs.

Just my opinion, I'm not all twisted up about it. The judging thing they tried to pull was worth getting twisted up about, but not the programs. You put the 2 together though and it is a pattern that looks petty and somewhat fearful, which they needn't be.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

HuntinDawg said:


> I'm not sure whether you know what I'm referring to or not. I'm not saying HRC titles should appear on AKC PEDIGREES. That would be a logistical nightmare to have to verify the titles and there is absolutely no reason they should do that and if that is what you are talking about then, yes, it would devalue the AKC titles or over-value the others. I'm talking about the programs you get when you go to run a test. The programs list sire, dam, age, owner, handler, etc. In HRC, if you list your dog's AKC titles when signing up for the test they will show those alongside your dog's registered name along with the HRC titles, same for the sire and dam. In AKC, they won't list those titles in the program. I don't think that would devalue the AKC titles, it is just a program and it would actually be pretty informative IMO. You see an untitled dog running in Master, for example, you think he is new to HT, but if he was listed as a HRCH you would know he wasn't new to HT, but in the absence of AKC titles you would know that he was crossing over to try a new venue. You might even go welcome the handler to the world of AKC HT...plus it would just be a nice thing to reciprocate since HRC does it in their programs.
> 
> Just my opinion, I'm not all twisted up about it. The judging thing they tried to pull was worth getting twisted up about, but not the programs. You put the 2 together though and it is a pattern that looks petty and somewhat fearful, which they needn't be.


Sorry, I thought you were referring to HRC titles on the pedigrees.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

mngundog said:


> Not petty at all, it makes good business since. If HRC/NAHRA are included in the title, AKC just devalued their own title.


 
So when HRC puts titles from other organizations in their programs --- Does this make the "value" of the HRC titles go down ? ? 
I don't think so 



.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Doc E said:


> So when HRC puts titles from other organizations in their programs --- Does this make the "value" of the HRC titles go down ? ?
> I don't think so
> 
> 
> ...


As stated above, I thought he was talking about the Pedigree not the Program. I also probably should not of said "value". I believe it is financially in the best interest of AKC to have only their titles in their Pedigree. I'm am not saying one title is better than the other.


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## Larry Thompson1 (Apr 19, 2011)

Oh NO don't you start with me.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Been a NAHRA member for years, have never run UKC events but will, Have quallified 2 dogs for Master Nationals. The latest "Cannon" had his title and Master National quallification at 23 months and ran 2 derbies as a MH and picked up a couple reds and a greenie. They (the dogs) help guide and hunt birds-clients and birds dont know what titles they have- just the type of work they do. Lets see:is a trail important? Is shooting a close bird important? is running a challenging blind important?...Dodge/Chevy/Chevy w/nitrous/(Ford Soon!)


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

If you know a little of the history behind AKC and HRC you will find that AKC would not allow any titles in front of the dogs name unless it was a CH. Thus one of the reasons why HRC and AKC went their separate ways. HRC insisted that the dogs title be at the front. I know the AKC now allows the AFC and FC in front of the name but those are champion titles also. 
Now is that the reason why AKC does not allow any other programs titles in the cataloge I don't know. But there is a little history for you to chew on.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

The not allowing titles in programs has nothing to do with "devaluing" one title or another. 

The simple answer is, other than titles it issues, AKC has no way to validate/verify titles printed in programs/catalogs. I can't speak to other organizations, as I have no experience, but I can say that both the premium list AND the program/catalog are considered official documents of AKC. At one time, ALL entry blanks were also sent to AKC to be checked for accuracy. Since this is no longer the case, accuracy of the program/catalog becomes paramount, as this is now the document AKC uses to track results of any event. Therefore, errors and claims in a program/catalog are checked up on, as that is part of the official record. 

I know one person who put a CD title on a dog they co-owned with the breeder. They forgot the dog was co-owned when they entered the dog. Before they were issued their CD certificate, they had to answer an enquiry from AKC as to why the dog's entry owners did not match the registered ownership. 

Having been a HT Secretary, Obedience Chairman, Show Committee member and also accepting entries for non-AKC (Chesapeake Working Dog tests) events, I can say that people put all kinds of BS on entry forms. This includes adding titles that the dog does not actually have. Where AKC is concerned, they cannot verify a UKC or NAHRA title, so these should not be on an official event record.

Lisa


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## BenHuntin (Jun 7, 2011)

How about this? 

AKC and UKC event in one weekend. From my hunt test experience there is a lot of watching and sitting around. I would much rather be saving money and running both venues in one weekend. Not to mention the time saved. Plus the clubs would double their income for the weekend and cost would be less...... 

So maybe we should stop debating and start hunt testing! My dogs are registered with bot Clubs and I have mutual respect for both. It is about the dogs and the hunt whether you are hunting fowl or ribbons!

But what do I know?


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

BenHuntin said:


> How about this?
> 
> AKC and UKC event in one weekend. From my hunt test experience there is a lot of watching and sitting around. I would much rather be saving money and running both venues in one weekend. Not to mention the time saved. *Plus the clubs would double their income for the weekend and cost would be less...... *
> 
> ...


It sounds much easier that it is in practice. Doubling your money? Maybe, maybe not since you're also, at least, doubling your expenses. Not to mention few clubs have enough help, equipment and/or land to hold two different venues on the same weekend.

I belong to a club that holds both AKC and HRC tests. Nothing could convince me to go along with putting on both the same weekend, even if we did have enough equipment, help and land to pull it off.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> *1.* It sounds much easier that it is in practice.
> 
> *2.* I belong to a club that holds both AKC and HRC tests.
> 
> *3.* Nothing could convince me to go along with putting on both the same weekend, even if we did have enough equipment, help and land to pull it off.


 
1. No kiddin'.
2. As well as NAHRA (we are tri-affiliated)
3. I fully agree. There is probably enough land and water at Burlington Ranch for a combo -- 
but would it be cool for the dogs and handlers *NO WAY !*
4. *Thanks* for helping put together the training day yesterday. It went very well. I couldn't beleive how early we all got done -- considering how many dogs there were. Good Job ! ! ! 


.


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