# What's up with the SRS, will it hang on?



## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

I love the concept of the SRS but it seems like it is in some ways dying out. There is one in Tennessee next weekend and only 16 dogs where in the open from 3 pros and 6 amateurs. They have had a few events around here (TN,NC,SC) and there seems like there have been a few more this year. However, it looks like it is getting smaller and smaller. It use to be that there where 7-8 PROs that made it there bread and butter which was a problem in and of itself but now it seems to be down to 4-5 on a regular basis. Anyone have any insight?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

The SRS will continue. The event this weekend is a victim of an almost "perfect storm". Pros are still in post Grand mode. Many also ran the Master National. After 2 different weeks of that level of stress a break is needed. Most of the SRS pros are hunt testers first & almost all run the Grand & or the Master National. There is an AKC test with an OH Q this weekend. 

I ran the event in Tennessee last year & had a blast. Would be running it this year on any other weekend. From the guys I train with we took 3 amateurs & 1 pro. 5 amateur dogs & that many pro dogs. All of us will be working/running at the cattle ranch this weekend.


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## Ryaneder1 (Jul 15, 2013)

I also noticed that they have not been on TV either... according to their facebook page that is being resolved though. I agree with you, the format is awesome and the dogs are incredible being so versatile between the hunt test and trial concepts. I am in the midwest so the venue doesn't get up my way, but i'd love to see more of it. Curious to see what kind of responses come on this thread.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I think they need a super national and some sort of numbers behind a title to make I worth attending anymore


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

the event needs to use real birds


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

kip said:


> the event needs to use real birds


Yep! I think the lack of real birds eliminates some of the real challenges our retrievers face at HT, FTs and hunting - and keeps some of us who might otherwise take a shot at SRS on the sidelines. I judged and SRS event this summer & would have much preferred real birds. The downside, I guess, is bird costs but with the reduced Avery participation, there might not be a real downside with SRS unless there is some other contractual obligations involved.


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## Ryaneder1 (Jul 15, 2013)

what was the methodology behind using avery product anyway (meaning bumpers or hexbirds)? was it strictly a sponsor/money thing? Was there any advantage technically speaking? Keeps scent and drag back out of the picture?


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## Brettttka (Feb 9, 2013)

From what I hear and take it for what its worth was that they used dummies instead of birds for PETA. Being aired on ESPN didnt want the hassle of dealing with them by using actual birds. Just rumor I have heard take it for what its worth.


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## waterdawg (Aug 1, 2012)

Good to see you still on Brett, hope all is good with the family and Marley..... How is he doing?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

kip said:


> the event needs to use real birds


I agree. They have used mallards in some of the non televised events.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Club events that are not televised can choose to use real birds.

A lot of pro handlers are preparing for the Crown Championship Halloween weekend.


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## Brettttka (Feb 9, 2013)

Thanks Rich, Marley is doing great!!! He is coming along and hopefully ready for opening weekend here the first part of November.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Granddaddy said:


> Yep! I think the lack of real birds eliminates some of the real challenges our retrievers face at HT, FTs and hunting - and keeps some of us who might otherwise take a shot at SRS on the sidelines. I judged and SRS event this summer & would have much preferred real birds. The downside, I guess, is bird costs but with the reduced Avery participation, there might not be a real downside with SRS unless there is some other contractual obligations involved.


Why do they need to use real birds? What challenge does a real bird give to a dog that is competing at a high level? Old falls and drag back? I understand it challenging a started dog, but not a finished, Master level, or QAA which is usually what run SRS. 

I have some big interest in SRS but don't see many opportunities around my area. If I were to put one on I would love the idea of no real birds. It can be a huge cost savings!


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## Ryaneder1 (Jul 15, 2013)

Brettttka said:


> From what I hear and take it for what its worth was that they used dummies instead of birds for PETA. Being aired on ESPN didnt want the hassle of dealing with them by using actual birds. Just rumor I have heard take it for what its worth.


That actually makes total sense... without question there would be someone making a stink about dead birds being retrieved on television...


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Nick Toti said:


> Why do they need to use real birds? What challenge does a real bird give to a dog that is competing at a high level? Old falls and drag back? I understand it challenging a started dog, but not a finished, Master level, or QAA which is usually what run SRS.
> 
> I have some big interest in SRS but don't see many opportunities around my area. If I were to put one on I would love the idea of no real birds. It can be a huge cost savings!


Are you being serious, or just trying to be funny?


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ryaneder1 said:


> what was the methodology behind using avery product anyway (meaning bumpers or hexbirds)? was it strictly a sponsor/money thing? Was there any advantage technically speaking? Keeps scent and drag back out of the picture?


The original event was the ESPN Outdoor Games and they used Docken's. One of the first, if not the first event was at Tom Docken's place in Northfield.

Whay or when in morphed to the SRS I do not know, but the rubber birds were used because of being broadcast. Avery dropped out a couple of years ago. Our Club event was down quite a bit this year and we have used Dockens for the past 3 years.

The disdussion has come up about using birds, but it does present some problems.


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## Brettttka (Feb 9, 2013)

Just saw where Banded is a new sponsor for the SRS.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I hope your joking. If not hopefully in the sauce?


Nick Toti said:


> Why do they need to use real birds? What challenge does a real bird give to a dog that is competing at a high level? Old falls and drag back? I understand it challenging a started dog, but not a finished, Master level, or QAA which is usually what run SRS.
> 
> I have some big interest in SRS but don't see many opportunities around my area. If I were to put one on I would love the idea of no real birds. It can be a huge cost savings!


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Justin Allen said:


> I hope your joking. If not hopefully in the sauce?


Dead serious. A shot flier possibly a distraction.....a dead old ragged bird, not really for a high level dog. If the dog is trained to the level it needs to be it should be able to run a blind off a poison bird no matter if it's a dead bird, live bird, or a dry cow chip. If the dog can't handle drag back or poison birds then it shouldn't be running at that level. 

I just don't see it being a game changer at a high level. 

But back to the question I asked. Why do they need to use real birds? What challenge does a real bird give to a dog thats competing at a high level that a dokken doesn't?

Does a dog mark a dead bird differently than it does a bumper or a dokken?


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Not talking about some dead old draggled out pen raised hen. When you think you have a marking fool on your hands - watch someone that knows the game turn that marking fool into a plain old fool with a fully operational, just fired up biggo Kansas style rooster screaming his head off and a full 7 gun salute to send his noisy ass to the afterworld. If you have one that doesn't come a bunch unglued- give him to the little girl down the street and start over. The sad part is that it is almost axiomatic that the better the dog the more influenced by live birds. If you haven't managed to see the effects an exciting flyer can have on a dog well.................

You need to get out more regards

Bubba


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## Kim Williams (Apr 29, 2009)

I have seen more dogs break over a rubber duck than I have seen break on a live flyer at a field trial. I am pretty sure this is all Walt Disney's fault and that is the reason they use the rubber ducks. What the SRS needs is someone to train and prepare as hard as Mr. Steinman does. Like the Yankees need the Red Sox, Steinman needs someone to actually challenge him. You show up and he will beat you like the USA Mens basketball team does when they play Guam. Until some pro can step up to the plate, this might as well be renamed the Steinman Retriever Series. Right now it is a one man butt kicking show. Doesn't really make good TV unless your name is Lyle. It would be great to see the sport get back to its 100 plus dog classics. They just might be something of past like the 8 track tape.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

I would like to see "Lyle" linem up at an open, that would be impressive.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Bubba said:


> Not talking about some dead old draggled out pen raised hen. When you think you have a marking fool on your hands - watch someone that knows the game turn that marking fool into a plain old fool with a fully operational, just fired up biggo Kansas style rooster screaming his head off and a full 7 gun salute to send his noisy ass to the afterworld. If you have one that doesn't come a bunch unglued- give him to the little girl down the street and start over. The sad part is that it is almost axiomatic that the better the dog the more influenced by live birds. If you haven't managed to see the effects an exciting flyer can have on a dog well.................
> 
> You need to get out more regards
> 
> Bubba


Absolutely agree that a filer can blow the wheels off some dogs. But the statement was they need to use birds at the test. Not all tests that use birds use fliers. 

As for the statement about having an unglued dog on a flier is horrible and that's what's wrong with some of the ideals today in the dog world. I run akc and ukc hunt test and am beginning to dabble with qual work. In no way in any scenario do I want a dog that comes unglued or idiotic when a live bird is thrown......ever. (As a coach once told me, "act like youve been there before"). I saw a FC AFC dog that lost her mind when the flier was thrown this weekend and decided to stroll 10 yds away from the handler To get a better view before returning to the handlers side before being sent. I have no want to in my life to have a dog that finds that necessary. FC or not. Plenty of damn good dogs can mark without going full retard on a flier.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Where does Mr. Steinman come up with all these awesome dogs? Lots of guys compete and beat him. Some just choose to run only when it's televised. I hear field trial washouts can be pretty nice dogs.


Kim Williams said:


> I have seen more dogs break over a rubber duck than I have seen break on a live flyer at a field trial. I am pretty sure this is all Walt Disney's fault and that is the reason they use the rubber ducks. What the SRS needs is someone to train and prepare as hard as Mr. Steinman does. Like the Yankees need the Red Sox, Steinman needs someone to actually challenge him. You show up and he will beat you like the USA Mens basketball team does when they play Guam. Until some pro can step up to the plate, this might as well be renamed the Steinman Retriever Series. Right now it is a one man butt kicking show. Doesn't really make good TV unless your name is Lyle. It would be great to see the sport get back to its 100 plus dog classics. They just might be something of past like the 8 track tape.


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## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

Nick Toti said:


> Absolutely agree that a filer can blow the wheels off some dogs. But the statement was they need to use birds at the test. Not all tests that use birds use fliers.
> 
> As for the statement about having an unglued dog on a flier is horrible and that's what's wrong with some of the ideals today in the dog world. I run akc and ukc hunt test and am beginning to dabble with qual work. In no way in any scenario do I want a dog that comes unglued or idiotic when a live bird is thrown......ever. (As a coach once told me, "act like youve been there before"). I saw a FC AFC dog that lost her mind when the flier was thrown this weekend and decided to stroll 10 yds away from the handler To get a better view before returning to the handlers side before being sent. I have no want to in my life to have a dog that finds that necessary. FC or not. Plenty of damn good dogs can mark without going full retard on a flier.


Hate to argue with you, but every All-Age marking test has a flyer, unless it is being held somewhere that flyers are not allowed. To compare the old fall of rubber ducks and real ducks is not even comparing apples to oranges! If you haven't had a dog lock on a flyer and look at nothing else, you will!! Not saying your dog falls under this catagory, but I would much rather have one creeping 10 yards than I had looking at it's toe nails when the birds are being thrown.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Nick Toti said:


> Dead serious. A shot flier possibly a distraction.....a dead old ragged bird, not really for a high level dog. If the dog is trained to the level it needs to be it should be able to run a blind off a poison bird no matter if it's a dead bird, live bird, or a dry cow chip. If the dog can't handle drag back or poison birds then it shouldn't be running at that level.
> 
> I just don't see it being a game changer at a high level.
> 
> ...


Not arguing whether they need to use live birds or not. It is their venue they can do what they want. I will say that if you don't buy that live birds, with drag back, old falls, flyer influence, etc., doesn't make any difference with good dogs, you need to watch more opens. Good open judges can make some of the best dogs look like their first JH test.

Now the one thing about the rubber ducks is that the in your face ones can make even a steady dog go nuts when they bounce three feet after landing


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Brandoned said:


> every All-Age marking test has a flyer, unless it is being held somewhere that flyers are not allowed.
> 
> Not comparing it to an All-Age test. Comparing it to all dog sports as a whole. Not all tests that use real birds, use real live birds.
> 
> If you'd rather have a dog that creeps 10yds when it sees a live bird that is your choice. I use my dog for the original intention they were bred for(hunting) and to run hunt tests. A dog that creeps 10yds when it sees a live bird doesn't have any place under my roof or in my blind unless it likes #2 shot in the rear. It's not unrealistic to get a fired up dog that knows how to sit.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

DoubleHaul said:


> Not arguing whether they need to use live birds or not. It is their venue they can do what they want. I will say that if you don't buy that live birds, with drag back, old falls, flyer influence, etc., doesn't make any difference with good dogs, you need to watch more opens. Good open judges can make some of the best dogs look like their first JH test.
> 
> Now the one thing about the rubber ducks is that the in your face ones can make even a steady dog go nuts when they bounce three feet after landing


I buy that about real birds to an extent but, I don't see them switching to real birds and then the next Saturday everyone who has been sitting out shows up to run. Its not like out of a 30 dog flight they are all within 5 points of each other because its a gimme test or the dogs aren't having any issues. The avery/drake/dokken fake birds are doing the job.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

But back to the main post. Will it hang on???? I am located in SW Louisiana and I talk to a good bit of trainers and handlers that are interested but are just won't make the move and try them. If there were some within a reasonable drive(<5hrs) I would gladly go give em a try. I have even brought the idea of putting an event on to our Club but it didn't go far. Maybe a joint venture between 2 or 3 clubs would make it a little more doable.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Don't know you or your dogs, so don't take this personally. An older gentleman told me when I first started running "there are 2 types of dogs, those that have broke & those that haven't broken yet". If a dog coming out of your blind is going to get #2 shot in the rear, please swallow your pride & invest in 50 cents worth of rope.

I own a few dogs that earlier in their careers were creeping fools. At a test or trial they were always creeping. Add a place mat or an e-collar & these dogs were steady. Sat many a morning while big flocks worked into the decoys with no movement. 

The plastic ducks certainly can cause creeping & breaking. It is most effective skipped or bounced a few feet in front of the line. Try it with a shackled duck one time & see the difference. You won't see that in a test or trial. Not only are shackled ducks against the rules but there wouldn't be any dogs left to run the next series.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

fishduck said:


> Don't know you or your dogs, so don't take this personally. An older gentleman told me when I first started running "there are 2 types of dogs, those that have broke & those that haven't broken yet". If a dog coming out of your blind is going to get #2 shot in the rear, please swallow your pride & invest in 50 cents worth of rope.
> 
> I own a few dogs that earlier in their careers were creeping fools. At a test or trial they were always creeping. Add a place mat or an e-collar & these dogs were steady. Sat many a morning while big flocks worked into the decoys with no movement.
> 
> The plastic ducks certainly can cause creeping & breaking. It is most effective skipped or bounced a few feet in front of the line. Try it with a shackled duck one time & see the difference. You won't see that in a test or trial. Not only are shackled ducks against the rules but there wouldn't be any dogs left to run the next series.


No doubt they all break. But break often and creep very often? Change your training or if you're too proud for that then send the dog packing....preferrably to someone who is smart enough not to breed it.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

I always heard it was to avoid problems with animal rights groups with the events shown on TV. Seems like the judges are able to get what they need to see by using the plastic birds. 

Never run one but got plans to try it next spring.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

The bird question always comes up when discussing the Srs. If they used real birds how many that use that as their reason for not running it would actually run? Not many, if any. Most FT people (diehards) will not cross over and run Srs. They are the ones that live and breath the white coat game. (I respect that and wish I could afford that luxury) 

To the op, I think the srs will survive. Too many people look for a game to play once they have the mh/hrch qaa on their dog without the means or dog to run the open. I've been away from the game for the past 2 1/2 years and am running tomorrow in Mansfield tn. Looking forward to the fun set ups and a good dose of humility when I go down in flames. Haven't run any event since may 2011, and running a dog I got last Friday, should make for a fun time.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

fishduck said:


> Don't know you or your dogs, so don't take this personally. An older gentleman told me when I first started running "there are 2 types of dogs, those that have broke & those that haven't broken yet". If a dog coming out of your blind is going to get #2 shot in the rear, please swallow your pride & invest in 50 cents worth of rope.
> 
> I own a few dogs that earlier in their careers were creeping fools. At a test or trial they were always creeping. Add a place mat or an e-collar & these dogs were steady. Sat many a morning while big flocks worked into the decoys with no movement.
> 
> The plastic ducks certainly can cause creeping & breaking. *It is most effective skipped or bounced a few feet in front of the line*. Try it with a shackled duck one time & see the difference. You won't see that in a test or trial. Not only are shackled ducks against the rules but there wouldn't be any dogs left to run the next series.


Nothing like the "Killer X-over" with two skipped teal 15 yrds from the line to make a steady dog crazy...


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

It's the same debate, over & over, regarding birds. When I offered my opinion it was in regards to my potential participation. I like SRS but I train for FTs & I hunt. I use real birds every day for training. I don't have time or the inclination to train with ATBs or such because they will not be seen in the games I play. You have to train with those artificials if you want to be successful in SRS. An ATB can be as difficult to dig out of heavy cover as a hen pheasant esp. if a dog isn't well trained on ATBs & isn't conditioned to that smell. Without weeks of training on ATBs my dogs would blink them while looking for a bird, so I don't participate. I think ATBs can enable SRS judges to throw birds in closer proximity without the same challenge as a cross-wind setup using birds, esp. in marshy setups where drag-back in addition to close proximity would make fall area distinction virtually impossible. Live flyers present a distinct challenge of their own, unlike anything an artificial can present. It's just a different game, birds vs artificials. And I don't train using artificials, so while I might be otherwise interested in SRS, since they don't use birds I'm not. And I think I'm like some other FTers, some of us might play (& some do) occasionally if birds were used. JMO....


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Justin Allen said:


> Where does Mr. Steinman come up with all these awesome dogs? Lots of guys compete and beat him. Some just choose to run only when it's televised. I hear field trial washouts can be pretty nice dogs.


You are right he does get most of the top dogs he runs in the SRS from FT pros as washouts. After running a few SRS the 5 or 6 pros that run them figured out the needed more long marking ability and it was easier to get a FT washout and cut them down as hunt test dogs rather then try to get one of their HT dogs to do a 350 yard retired mark. To be fair to Steinman and the others that run SRS, the SRS is an occasional thing. Their program is generally geared to HT and the Grand. If they run 30 dogs only 4-5 are targeting the SRS events. Why would you change your program for a small portion of your/ your clients needs. Washouts make sense. They are usually QAA which is mostly what you see in SRS so they can do that and they usually have a bit less drive so they can be cut down to do HT work. Steinman and the others pick up a few for their clients that want to run SRS then teach them the HT game which is tricky in it's own right. 

The same could be said for many of the FT pros. Alan Pleasant gets a lot of 24-26 month old dogs that have 20 plus derby points and a Qual win or two. No one says he is less of a trainer because of it. His focus is taking them from there to FC and the nationals which is huge. I am not saying one is better then the other. What I am saying is there is nothing wrong with going out and getting the right talent for the job to keep your focus on what you do best.

To say people don't enter SRS because they are afraid of Steinman is laughable. I would bet Steinman would say that too.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Nick Toti said:


> No doubt they all break. But break often and creep very often? Change your training or if you're too proud for that then send the dog packing....preferrably to someone who is smart enough not to breed it.


So please clear this up for me, are you saying:
1) you can train a dog not to break or creep,
2) breaking and creeping is inherently bred into some dogs, or
3) breaking and creeping is inherently bred into some dogs but you can change your training (if you aren't too proud) and correct the problem?

Just a little confused after reading all of your posts.

Thanks,
Lonnie Spann


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Nick Toti said:


> Absolutely agree that a filer can blow the wheels off some dogs. But the statement was they need to use birds at the test. Not all tests that use birds use fliers.
> 
> As for the statement about having an unglued dog on a flier is horrible and that's what's wrong with some of the ideals today in the dog world. I run akc and ukc hunt test and am beginning to dabble with qual work. In no way in any scenario do I want a dog that comes unglued or idiotic when a live bird is thrown......ever. (As a coach once told me, "act like youve been there before"). I saw a FC AFC dog that lost her mind when the flier was thrown this weekend and decided to stroll 10 yds away from the handler To get a better view before returning to the handlers side before being sent. I have no want to in my life to have a dog that finds that necessary. FC or not. Plenty of damn good dogs can mark without going full retard on a flier.


So out of idle curiosity- I axed Entry Express about you. Their query indicates:

Handler:  Nick Toti

Event DateEventRegistered NameStake03/02/2013Cajun Riviera Field Trial Club AKC Hunting TestHR Toti's Big Brown SugarSenior03/03/2013Cajun Riviera Field Trial Club AKC Hunting TestHR Toti's Big Brown SugarSenior1 


Given your obviously vast experience on this subject- I will defer further comment.

Know when to hold em regards

Bubba


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Bubba said:


> So out of idle curiosity- I axed Entry Express about you. Their query indicates:
> 
> Handler: Nick Toti
> 
> ...


Bubba,

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods lets have a beer, I'm buying!

Lonnie Spann


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Bubba said:


> So out of idle curiosity- I axed Entry Express about you. Their query indicates:
> 
> Handler:  Nick Toti
> 
> ...


haha impressive bubba. Whoever you are, I am glad you wonder so much to who the Nick Toti is to google me. Glad I'm taking up some time of your day! Absolutely am no expert but spend the majority(probably too much) of my time training dogs, running tests, and watching trials. Nothing I stated takes extensive knowledge on dogs to know.

Everyone's entitled! Show us your pelts!


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Lonnie,

1) you can train a dog not to break or creep, sometimes yep
2) breaking and creeping is inherently bred into some dogs, Sometimes yep. Example I am helping train a HRCH MH right now with happy feet. Her momma had em and so does her sister. 3 out of 4 dogs(that I wont name their FC AFC sire bc of name calling) I've seen run in the last month, act like theyre standing on hot coals at the line. Not a coincidence, Genetic. FYI dont breed that dog you brought to the grand.....please! Haha Jk jk 
3) breaking and creeping is inherently bred into some dogs but you can change your training (if you aren't too proud)and correct the problem? You can try whatevers neccesary(roping em at a test, beating the snot out of em, or burning em up)but it more than likey wont fix genetics


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Nick Toti said:


> No doubt they all break. But break often and creep very often? Change your training or if you're too proud for that then send the dog packing....preferrably to someone who is smart enough not to breed it.


My point was more what you witness at a test/trial isn't always a good indicator of how the dog performs training or hunting. I have owned such test wise dogs.

These games regularly provide me with a healthy dose of humility. I have used that to change my training & am perfectly satisfied with the end product.

Of the posters i know on this thread, myself & Brett are the only ones who step up to the line at SRS & other venues. My SRS experience is limited to 2 events. There is a HUGE difference in using birds & bumpers. Handled a dog in Tennessee last year that just couldn't dig a rubber duck out of heavy cover. Went directly to the area of the fall but hunted back out of the cover. Handling back to the area already thoroughly hunted was rough. Same dog a few weekends ago would not look past the short flyer station to the long bird. Resulted in a very short trial for her. In the SRS, I am certain she would have seen the mark.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

I bet that Mark will be glad to know that if he changes his training methods, Annie could dramatically add HRC points to 500+ she already has and maybe add the 3rd Master National plate. Rose could possibly reach 500 and add 2 more plates to the 1 she got this year. 

Lets recap this thread Friday night after the Q while we are sitting around the White House.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

fishduck said:


> My point was more what you witness at a test/trial isn't always a good indicator of how the dog performs training or hunting. I have owned such test wise dogs.
> 
> These games regularly provide me with a healthy dose of humility. I have used that to change my training & am perfectly satisfied with the end product.
> 
> Of the posters i know on this thread, myself & Brett are the only ones who step up to the line at SRS & other venues. My SRS experience is limited to 2 events. There is a HUGE difference in using birds & bumpers. Handled a dog in Tennessee last year that just couldn't dig a rubber duck out of heavy cover. Went directly to the area of the fall but hunted back out of the cover. Handling back to the area already thoroughly hunted was rough. Same dog a few weekends ago would not look past the short flyer station to the long bird. Resulted in a very short trial for her. In the SRS, I am certain she would have seen the mark.


So they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Thanks for the experienced input!


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Looked on the SRS website and their Facebook page. Doesn't look like you can easily get much of a schedule or routine of when they hold the events. If it was more visible it may help entries.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Nick Toti said:


> So they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Thanks for the experienced input!


You have 2 ears & 1 mouth.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Nick Toti said:


> Looked on the SRS website and their Facebook page. Doesn't look like you can easily get much of a schedule or routine of when they hold the events. If it was more visible it may help entries.


Use the search function on Entry Express with the key word of "super. All the listed events are there.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Splash_em said:


> I bet that Mark will be glad to know that if he changes his training methods, Annie could dramatically add HRC points to 500+ she already has and maybe add the 3rd Master National plate. Rose could possibly reach 500 and add 2 more plates to the 1 she got this year.
> 
> Lets recap this thread Friday night after the Q while we are sitting around the White House.


I do what I can. And please don't waste real life time talking about the internet when you're at such a venue. I was actually thinking about making that trip to the Q/Master but got caught up with getting ready for hunting season.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Splash_em said:


> Use the search function on Entry Express with the key word of "super. All the listed events are there.


Thanks, I've seen those on their website but I was assuming they would have more than 2 events in the next 8 months. Kind of slim pickins or they just don't post them until last minute.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Splash_em said:


> I bet that Mark will be glad to know that if he changes his training methods, Annie could dramatically add HRC points to 500+ she already has and maybe add the 3rd Master National plate. Rose could possibly reach 500 and add 2 more plates to the 1 she got this year.
> 
> Lets recap this thread Friday night after the Q while we are sitting around the White House.


That anyone would even imply Mark Land’s dogs are not well trained is frankly, comical. And I watched Lonnie’s dog sitting with 3 birds almost splashing him last Saturday morning, after which Jack picked up his 500 point ribbon. This thread proves the adage: "You can always tell an internet dog trainer. You just can’t tell them much.”


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

If you're gauging a good dog and trainer by its ability to achieve 500 please move on. Th HRCH MH I'm working with and running is about to get her 500 points and I wouldn't buy the dog for $500.

You can run a dog with a 50% pass rate and still hit 500 points if you want to spend the money.

And no I don't own a dog that has 500 points. No want to at this time either. But to each his own.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Nick Toti said:


> If we're gauging a good dog and trainer by its ability to achieve 500 please move on. Th HRCH MH I'm working with and running is about to get her 500 points and I wouldn't buy the dog for $500.


Then you should obviously change your training methods, run more Senior tests, and ship the dog off to someone who won't breed it, based on your own logic.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Nick Toti said:


> I do what I can. And please don't waste real life time talking about the internet when you're at such a venue. I was actually thinking about making that trip to the Q/Master but got caught up with getting ready for hunting season.


Based on your interweb comments, you would have a tough time hanging with the crew at the Cattle Ranch. It would have been fun to see you try, though. ;-)


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Care to elaborate on this statement?


Nate_C said:


> Washouts make sense. They are usually QAA which is mostly what you see in SRS so they can do that and they usually have a bit less drive so they can be cut down to do HT work.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Your record suggests otherwise. Just saying.


Nick Toti said:


> I do what I can. And please don't waste real life time talking about the internet when you're at such a venue. I was actually thinking about making that trip to the Q/Master but got caught up with getting ready for hunting season.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

RF2 said:


> Based on your interweb comments, you would have a tough time hanging with the crew at the Cattle Ranch. It would have been fun to see you try, though. ;-)


Yea not saying I'm trying to compete. I'm just trying to get some more entries on Entry Express to show how credible I am on the web!


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

GulfCoast said:


> Then you should obviously change your training methods, run more Senior tests, and ship the dog off to someone who won't breed it, based on your own logic.


Exactly what's happening next week She's heading home thank the lord! Sadly I dont know if her owner will breed her or not because he bread(sp?) her moma and she was a nut case. But hey on a good note her sire was a member of the 500 point club so you know how good of dog he was!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Nick Toti said:


> Exactly what's happening next week She's heading home thank the lord! Sadly I dont know if her owner will breed her or not because he bread(sp?) her moma and she was a nut case. But hey on a good note her sire was a member of the 500 point club so you know how good of dog he was!


This advice is worth what you are paying for it. 500 points is a big commitment of time, effort and money. The owner of the dog you are running isn't going to be pleased that his pride & joy is being slandered on the Internet. The retriever world is VERY small. 

Carry on.


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## waterdog711 (Jan 18, 2011)

Coming from a strictly amateur trainer here: The first time I saw a flier shot was about 18 years ago. It surprised me then because I hadn't been in the retriever training arena before. 

A few years later, some some animal group played a video of the hounds shredding a fox at the end of a hunt in England while the hunters cheered on. That video so shocked the English people, it resulted in a nationwide ban on fox hunting a very short time later that has never been reversed. 

For myself, I buy and use birds for training and also think it is important to have real birds for events. 

However, in this Youtube day and age, I am afraid it is only a matter of time before PETA or someone else assembles a video montage of necks being wrung the morning of a hunt test or fliers being shot at close range and it goes viral. 

At that point, there will be no reasonable debate or discussion in the news, it will be too late. People will only know they are outraged and some politician will feel the need to do something about it. 

For these reasons, I think it is wise to use bumpers at the SRS or any other test if there is a possibility of it ending up on TV or online. 

Tom


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Nick Toti said:


> If you're gauging a good dog and trainer by its ability to achieve 500 please move on. Th HRCH MH I'm working with and running is about to get her 500 points and I wouldn't buy the dog for $500.
> 
> You can run a dog with a 50% pass rate and still hit 500 points if you want to spend the money.
> 
> And no I don't own a dog that has 500 points. No want to at this time either. But to each his own.


Nick,

Guess what...I have a dog with *510 points!* Does that say anything about me or my dog? Maybe so maybe not. When you train one and get 500 points come back and chat with the big dogs. Until then Grasshopper, wax on, wax off.

Lonnie Spann


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

fishduck said:


> This advice is worth what you are paying for it. 500 points is a big commitment of time, effort and money. The owner of the dog you are running isn't going to be pleased that his pride & joy is being slandered on the Internet. The retriever world is VERY small.
> 
> Carry on.


The owner knows how big of a knuckle head she is, matter of fact he forewarned before taking the dog. That's why he'd rather have someone else spend their time on her. As far as the sire he was a nice dog no slander sent. Matter of fact he was a MH and GRHRCH. Great dog to watch, he was automatic when he came to the line!


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Nick,
> 
> Guess what...I have a dog with *510 points!* Does that say anything about me or my dog? Maybe so maybe not. When you train one and get 500 points come back and chat with the big dogs. Until then Grasshopper, wax on, wax off.
> 
> Lonnie Spann


Congrats on that Lonnie! Wish I could have saw it this weekend but decided to run Cajun's because of logistics. Really wanted to make the Cleo Test because my pups out of Gator Point way down the line and I wanted to contribute back....maybe next year. I don't have the want to chase 500 right now because even if my dog gets it I'm not breeding her bc of health clearances. Just don't want to sink the time and money into it with no possible return. I'll just hang back with my HRCH and watch y'all chase the pernts. 

So long amigos on this post. Hope to see y'all on a bucket soon! After hunting season of course! And maybe at the SRS duck dog challenge in May in Bama!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Nick Toti said:


> Absolutely agree that a filer can blow the wheels off some dogs. But the statement was they need to use birds at the test. Not all tests that use birds use fliers.
> 
> As for the statement about having an unglued dog on a flier is horrible and that's what's wrong with some of the ideals today in the dog world. I run akc and ukc hunt test and am beginning to dabble with qual work. In no way in any scenario do I want a dog that comes unglued or idiotic when a live bird is thrown......ever. (As a coach once told me, "act like youve been there before"). I saw a FC AFC dog that lost her mind when the flier was thrown this weekend and decided to stroll 10 yds away from the handler To get a better view before returning to the handlers side before being sent. I have no want to in my life to have a dog that finds that necessary. FC or not. Plenty of damn good dogs can mark without going full retard on a flier.


Nick you say you run AKC hunt tests, however EE says you scratched in both of the tests you entered. Had you actually showed up and run you may have a better understanding of what difference real birds{especially shot flyers} can do to a dog.

My guess is that coach who told you to "act like youve been there before" would also have told you that if you yourself haven't been there before, then it would be best for you to not to preach to those who have been there before


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

mjh345 said:


> Nick you say you run AKC hunt tests, however EE says you scratched in both of the tests you entered. Had you actually showed up and run you may have a better understanding of what difference real birds{especially shot flyers} can do to a dog.
> 
> My guess is that coach who told you to "act like youve been there before" would also have told you that if you yourself haven't been there before, then it would be best for you to not to preach to those who have been there before




Little info for ya follower: EE isnt the bible on who has ran a dog before there are changes to handlers all the time that don't go on there. 
As for fliers I'm lucky enough to train with a good friend that has a pen full 60-70 mallards. He insists we shoot them weekly. Our dogs see plenty of fliers. 

If you don't have anything to contribute about dogs or the topic then troll on. 
But if you insist on following link me up on twitter or Instagram.


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

Nate_C said:


> I love the concept of the SRS but it seems like it is in some ways dying out. There is one in Tennessee next weekend and only 16 dogs where in the open from 3 pros and 6 amateurs. They have had a few events around here (TN,NC,SC) and there seems like there have been a few more this year. However, it looks like it is getting smaller and smaller. It use to be that there where 7-8 PROs that made it there bread and butter which was a problem in and of itself but now it seems to be down to 4-5 on a regular basis. Anyone have any insight?


Stick a fork in it, the SRS is done!


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Gordy Weigel said:


> Stick a fork in it, the SRS is done!


Never got into it, mechanics werre extremely boring to me. The challenge with dog work is seeing them dig out a tough punch bird on their own.
Tests weren't marking tests but handling tests which only proves they can handle to a mark.


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## Bay Kingfisher (Mar 20, 2008)

A pro's opportunity cost is to high to play the SRS game, therefore there is a lack of interest.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Nick Toti said:


> Little info for ya follower: EE isnt the bible on who has ran a dog before there are changes to handlers all the time that don't go on there.
> As for fliers I'm lucky enough to train with a good friend that has a pen full 60-70 mallards. He insists we shoot them weekly. Our dogs see plenty of fliers.
> 
> If you don't have anything to contribute about dogs or the topic then troll on.
> But if you insist on following link me up on twitter or Instagram.


Excuse me for walking in your shadow PLAYA, but if you'd be so kind to indulge my uninitiated opinions I have a few comments to your learned and vastly experienced observations.

First of all I was kind of of the opinion that as far as the source for which events a person has run that EE was in effect kind of "The Bible" Please let me know what actually is the source. While you are at it why don't you fill us all in on the 100's of times you have run AKC HT's FT's and National Championships as a "substitute handler.

As to your next comment about your good friend with a pen full of flyers that he insists you shoot weekly; my only suggestion is that you educate your good friend as to his ignorance and spendthrift ways. He obviously isn't aware of your pronouncement based on your ______{fill in the blank 10's, 100's, 1000's+} trips to the line that "Live fliers don't really have any influence on well trained upper level dogs" Ask him why he is uselessly wasting all that time effort and money on live birds. I think it is kind of you to share your brilliance and associate with someone who is so beneath you mentally.

I have very little experience with thread topic of the SRS. Unlike you who has probably been a substitute handler for Steinman in all of his wins I have only run a handful or so of them. I actually was fortunate enough to have won the largest SRS ever that was held in Grand Island Ne.{At least I think it was me that ran my dog; was I having a dream and were you actually the substitute handler for me??} Now I am confused. Help me sensei!!!

Let me focus on the very first SRS that I{or was it you?} ran. It was held in Miami Ok. The first series was a double with a long blind run up the middle. The go bird was a big black and white rubber duckie that was 150-200 yds out and landed in a gravelled area. The rubber duckie was clearly visible from the line. My dog went straight to it. When he got there he nudged it with his nose; and then went into hunt mode looking for a bird in the area. He accumulated a bunch of points that prevented him from a chance at winning the event I later learned that area housed many actual {non rubber} birds. This is a dog who had never ever before blinked a bird; nor has he ever since blinked a bird. Call me stupid but based on that experience I believe he would have instantly picked up that bird up and brought it back to me{had it in fact been a REAL BIRD!!!!} To me that is just one of many examples of how real birds do in fact have a different and powerful effect on dogs. Many people who run Canadian Trials would agree with my flawed logic. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US WITH YOUR WISDOM AND YEARS OF EXPERIENCE!!

I can't wait for you to show me and my ignorant comrades North of the border the errors in our thinking
Thanks

PS Until now I didn't do Twitter or Instagram, but I can tell that needs to change pronto


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Flip side of "errors in our thinking" is our "canarder"'s carrying on not just at the insignificance of live birds in trials but of trial dogs' merits. Intel is he's taken a page from Milner's book and turned (marketed) it to his own advantage - as noted down there in Louise-iana. Jase, is that you - going breakaway from the family bidness (and going black ops on EE - and as a phantom handler) to start..."Rubber Duck Dynasty?"

MG


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

mjh345 said:


> Excuse me for walking in your shadow PLAYA, but if you'd be so kind to indulge my uninitiated opinions I have a few comments to your learned and vastly experienced observations.
> 
> First of all I was kind of of the opinion that as far as the source for which events a person has run that EE was in effect kind of "The Bible" Please let me know what actually is the source. While you are at it why don't you fill us all in on the 100's of times you have run AKC HT's FT's and National Championships as a "substitute handler.
> 
> ...


I never stated "live fliers don't have any influence on upper level dogs". I agreed that fliers can blow the wheels off some dogs and dogs will all eventually break. My first post asked a question how would a bird sway a well trained dog with drag back or poison bird in a SRS event. By that I meant using dead birds, thinking they wouldn't make the jump from rubber ducks to shooting fliers. I was literally asking a question and showing my point of view so that people with the experience in SRS(that started the debate with the comment, "they need to use real birds")could contribute with some comments on why. You and others responded to my question with a helpful hand of, "are you serious?" Yes, I was dead serious I asked a question. 
If you have such knowledge then share it. I think(dont know) that's originally one of the reasons this site was set up for. 

Dogs blinking rubber ducks because they're looking for a real bird? I can see where that could be an issue. I've seen it in my own before during training. Dog picks up the marks with real birds and then blinks the blind because it's a pile of bumpers and the dog is looking for(or wants) a real bird.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Justin Allen said:


> Care to elaborate on this statement?


The field trial is a small portion of the test (usually only one of the series) and usually solid but not crazy All-Age hard (based on the 2 SRS's I have been involved with). So a qualified dog can do it for the most part, or at least hang in there and not get to many points. The dogs the SRS guys get from FT pros are usually decent Qual dogs. These are really nice dogs in general but they are not going to be able to win an open which is the standard so calling them washouts isn't completely fair. I could see SRS Trainer X calling up Danny farmer and saying "do you have any solid Q dogs that are really good on the line that you will sell me. Danny then if he had one would get him a dog that is not going to make it in the Open because of a bit of a lack of drive or a little weakness in marking (it wouldn't seem like a weakness to us but their standard is crazy high) but is a good all around dog. Then SRS Trainer X starts the process of teaching the dog the HT and Grand game while still giving it the occasional FT set up to keep most of those skills intact. This isn't easy. 

This isn't to say they all start out this way. Ever so often they will have a grand dog that is an exceptional marker and they go the other way with them. I was just answering the comment someone said that I hear a lot that the SRS guys just buy all their dogs which is not completely fair and not what I was trying to do with this thread. I was asking about the SRS organization not the trainers that participate in them.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

SRS might be done on TV, it's very akin to watching golf, or paint dry (boring); also 90% commercials; the dock diving is diverting. However I believe the events will continue to be ran; it's the only event you can actually win $$$ and Prizes at for placing-competing. Anytime there's a prize offered up people are gonna compete; I know a cash prize tempts me a bunch more than; some letters in front of or behind a dogs name. I just wish we had some more of them on the west-coast and they'd do some of the televised ones out west, or even North, & East; They really limit themselves with contestants sticking to the same basic Southern area, it's a big expense for any trainer not in that area. It seems very akin to a "good-ole boys" club, no variety with the same people running year after year.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> SRS might be done on TV, it's very akin to watching golf, or paint dry (boring); also 90% commercials; the dock diving is diverting. However I believe the events will continue to be ran; it's the only event you can actually win $$$ and Prizes at for placing-competing. Anytime there's a prize offered up people are gonna compete; I know a cash prize tempts me a bunch more than; some letters in front of or behind a dogs name. I just wish we had some more of them on the west-coast and they'd do some of the televised ones out west, or even North, & East; They really limit themselves with contestants sticking to the same basic Southern area, it's a big expense for any trainer not in that area. It seems very akin to a "good-ole boys" club, no variety with the same people running year after year.


If Avery has walked away there probably will not be many running in to throw money at this made for TV dog drama. The srs always had a Shelf Life, I would say that it's brand is getting a little moldy now. It's the Silver Lab of dog spectator sports so hopefully, we will stop seeing the imaginary srs title before advertised litters.


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