# "British Labs". Why?



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

First... what IS a British lab? Is it an import? Is it the off-spring of imports? Is there a certain % of the genetic material that has to be from "British" Labs? Is it a deliberate strategy by US breeders to exclude American/Canadian lines from a pedigree? Do "British" labs have a different conformation? ARe they less susceptible to, i.e., not carriers of hereditary maladies? (And if you narrow any gene pool... aren't you inviting a whole 'nother set of genetic problems?)

The labs I see on You Tube clips from UK FT's look lean and muscular about like the ones you see around here. And they were beautifully under control... but they were competing on a Championship level, so... I'd expect they would have been trained to excel at the sport the way the Brits play it.

Are there breeders in Great Britain who advertise "North American Labrador" puppies?

Are Golden Retriever breeders in the US smitten with "British" Goldens? 

Does anyone in the UK have the stuff it would take to try the truly _American_ Retriever... the Chessie.

But mostly... do "British Lab" owners in the US have a fondness for tweed and Wellies and send their dogs with the wrong hand?


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

My understanding is that the English Labrador has a modified breed similar to field.
My penny worth.


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

1tulip said:


> First... what IS a British lab? Is it an import? Is it the off-spring of imports? Is there a certain % of the genetic material that has to be from "British" Labs? Is it a deliberate strategy by US breeders to exclude American/Canadian lines from a pedigree? Do "British" labs have a different conformation? ARe they less susceptible to, i.e., not carriers of hereditary maladies? (And if you narrow any gene pool... aren't you inviting a whole 'nother set of genetic problems?)
> 
> The labs I see on You Tube clips from UK FT's look lean and muscular about like the ones you see around here. And they were beautifully under control... but they were competing on a Championship level, so... I'd expect they would have been trained to excel at the sport the way the Brits play it.
> 
> ...


If you ever feel the need to embark on a new career, consider the charter fishing business. You sure can troll with the best of 'em!-Paul


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

1tulip said:


> First... what IS a British lab? Is it an import? Is it the off-spring of imports? Is there a certain % of the genetic material that has to be from "British" Labs? Is it a deliberate strategy by US breeders to exclude American/Canadian lines from a pedigree? Do "British" labs have a different conformation? ARe they less susceptible to, i.e., not carriers of hereditary maladies? (And if you narrow any gene pool... aren't you inviting a whole 'nother set of genetic problems?)
> 
> The labs I see on You Tube clips from UK FT's look lean and muscular about like the ones you see around here. And they were beautifully under control... but they were competing on a Championship level, so... I'd expect they would have been trained to excel at the sport the way the Brits play it.
> 
> ...


There was a time. In the 80s Holway Barty was imported to the US from Great Britain he sired multiple field champions including FC/AFC Topbrass Cotton. People tried to duplicate that by import other British Goldens it never happened again and people gave up on the idea.


----------



## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

i find them less animated. 

Would not like to see you in the charter business because captains have a mic. Then again, you'd make a great mate.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

> ... what IS a British lab?


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


>


Pure genius, Ken!


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Pure genius, Ken!



No Kiddin...lol


----------



## awclark (Oct 20, 2007)

Leave it to Ken! How do you think of these things?


----------



## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Ken that Brain of yours! Amazing! British Lab you are something else RTN resident genius.


----------



## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

awclark said:


> Leave it to Ken! How do you think of these things?


My thoughts exactly!


----------



## duxbac (Apr 22, 2009)

Back to the question.
IMHAOEO
"British Labs" is an American term for labrador retriever out of conformation stock. It has, for the most part, nothing to do with the country of origin. As has already been pointed out, the British field dogs look very much like the North American field dogs and both look very different than the conformation dogs.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

duxbac said:


> Back to the question.
> IMHAOEO
> "British Labs" is an American term for labrador retriever out of conformation stock. It has, for the most part, nothing to do with the country of origin. As has already been pointed out, the British field dogs look very much like the North American field dogs and both look very different than the conformation dogs.


This actually is not so.....British labs stem from British Field trial stock, ENGLISH labs are what people generically call show dogs


----------



## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

Ken!

lol


----------



## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> This actually is not so.....British labs stem from British Field trial stock, ENGLISH labs are what people generically call show dogs


Agreed, Bridget!


----------



## dgengr (Nov 28, 2012)

The important thing is to decide what is politically correct, as to not insult the dogs. As stated above the true “American Retriever is the Chessie”. The Labrador came from some island up around Newfoundland, but I cant remember the name of it?????????? Something like retrieverland, Webfootedville or something like that. “maybe someone more in tune with Geography can help” 

So do the dogs prefer to be calls Labradors no mater where they come from?
Do USA stock want to be called Labrador Americans or just plain Labrador?
Do British stock want to be British Labradors? What if they live in the USA but come from British stock are they British Americans????
What if they just come from a back yard litter and you don’t know what stock they come from????? Do we call them Dog?? “ I just asked my pup, he is from a back yard litter what did he prefer.. He answered from the middle of his king size bed “what is a dog?????”..
Im so confused now….. Ken I guess im gona have to get a chessie at least I will know what to call him as to not hurt his feelings.


----------



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> This actually is not so.....British labs stem from British Field trial stock, ENGLISH labs are what people generically call show dogs


Maybe to you but to the uninformed ignorant public any lab with the blocky head and stocky body (what I connect to conformation) is called British or English labs simply because of those traits. Key words here are uninformed and ignorant. Very unfair to the nicely bred UK field bred retrievers. The Labrador is a truly amazing dog. It has endured what us humans have done or tried to do to it where other breeds have not been so fortunate.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I've Sold 1 Female Labrador from British Field Lines; I was content to describe her such; as her sire was a KC Field Champ (frozen AI); and her Mother (AKC registered) was an import out of KC registered British field stock (with British-Irish performance titles). If you got out the pedigree and looked back the mother was the only AKC registered dog; It looked to be a pretty impressive British field pedigree; cost the guy a bunch of $$ to purchase the pup, which he later sold as a started dog. She was a little soft for his taste and did not do well with the e-collar training program which he put her on, she also didn't look anything like the block headed show lab; I think he wanted. I would condone describing a dog out of British stock if You have 2 print out both AKC and KC pedigrees; to trace registration's # and performance titles; so most likely you'd have to have a KC registered dog with British Performance titles in the 3 generation pedigree. After that I think it gets a little iffy, on the lines being British-Irish; I'd want at least 2nd generation to have British-Irish performance titles as well, before I'd describe them as British *Field *Stock


----------



## Henlee (Feb 10, 2013)

Being uninformed at the time I would get pretty frustrated trying to explain the difference between my British lab. After awhile I would just say that he was from breeder in Michigan and therefore an American lab or I would say that Labs originated in Britain, so all labs are British.


----------



## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

the dog in my avatar father was an Irish import. Help understand is Purple a English or British Lab born on American soil?


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Henlee said:


> or I would say that Labs originated in Britain, so all labs are British.


I thought they originated in Newfoundland.


----------



## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

Please read the history on the Labrador Retriever....and yes it did originate in Newfoundland....which is a province in Canada. Also, the field trials originated in Britain.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Too funny.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

If ya get a chance, read Charles Morgan "ON Retrievers". It's a great read.....IMO


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> *Does anyone in the UK have the stuff it would take to try the truly American Retriever... the Chessie.*


Nah, shouldn't think so.






Eug


----------



## Henlee (Feb 10, 2013)

I was of the understanding that the St Johns Water Dog was from Newfoundland, which was imported to Britain and used as one of the base breeds for Labradors.​


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

The debate lives on. ;-)


----------



## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I don't care what breed or what country. I have seen that video before and always like watching it. Pure enjoyment thanks Colonel.


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

Here's one of my favorites... While there are some much better IGL videos as far as seeing labradors run retrieves similar to American. However, one of the most important evaluations of labradors in a British type trial is whether or not the dog can use his nose. They want the dog to get into the area, put his nose down, and do whatever it takes to find a bird. This video shows a dog trail a VERY lively pheasant runner at a pretty good distance. It's pretty fun to watch!


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Barton,

Thanks for posting that clip, I hadn't seen it before. A cracking piece of work that would of course never be seen in a US style Field Trial. Heigh Ho, each to his own.

Eug


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> I don't care what breed or what country. I have seen that video before and always like watching it. Pure enjoyment thanks Colonel.


Never saw that before, awesom video, I've got chills.


----------



## awclark (Oct 20, 2007)

Thanks Eug,
Lovely video for the BASC.


----------



## bloodorange (May 27, 2011)

Nice piece of dog work there. Game finding is of upmost performance across the pond.


----------



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Nah, shouldn't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful film clip.


----------



## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Those two videos were incredible. I appreciate the trainability of our FT dogs, but I've got to tell you, the perseverance of these two dogs gives me chills. Those are retrievers! Fantastic noses!


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Hmmm, why do they have such long retrieves in Field Trials? How would a dog ever have to retrieve a duck that far? My gun can only shoot a duck out to 40-50 yards.


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

John Lash said:


> Hmmm, why do they have such long retrieves in Field Trials? How would a dog ever have to retrieve a duck that far? My gun can only shoot a duck out to 40-50 yards.


They don't hunt anything like a typical, American, drop two in the decoys duck hunt. For instance, on a driven shoot... they have beaters, shooters, and pickers. The beaters are in the woods with spaniels (usually) jumping up game. The shooters are in a clearing or even the woods sometimes, but in the direction that the beaters are pushing the birds. The pickers, with their labradors, are sometimes a good piece away from action. They mark all of the game that is killed, sending their dogs on the crippled runners immediately and picking up (hence the name) the dead game after the drive has ended. This means some retrieves may be 50 yards, but some may be upwards of 250 yards. 

You actually bring up an interesting point. Some have asked, on this forum, whether or not there are people in the UK looking for American Labradors. Well, there may be, but I highly doubt the demand is anything comparable to the people over here looking for British Labradors. You see, their trial games aren't just "like" a day's hunt, it actually IS a day's hunt. Of course, the purpose of the hunt is the trial, but their hunting and trialing are done in such close proximity that an excellent trial dog is perfectly fit to be an excellent hunting dog. 

I am not saying that American FC dogs aren't fit for American hunting styles, but the hot ones can be a bit tough, I assume. I am only making this assumption based on the multiple threads posted here every few months about issues such as breaking, noise, hyper-activity in the holding blinds, etc. Now, I'm certainly not "ranking" one dog above another. The things that an American FC dog is capable of doing are simply incredible... there's no other way to describe it. I'm just saying that, when it comes to a labrador bred to hunt game, the Brits have their trials dialed in to test just that. When you transfer that over to our style of hunting, although there are many differences, the dogs that are bred in high demand are very good with their noses, very quiet, very steady, and, if they have won trials to earn a FTCH, very fast and stylish. For the average duck hunter/handler, this type of dog is much easier to control than one who has the fire power necessary to succeed in the American trials. Thus, the demand for British dogs continues to increase in America, much to the disgust of many American FC guys. 

I think they both have their places, and I think they both excel in them. I just wish everyone realized that we aren't on different teams here. I would hate to see the market for American FC dogs decrease, because these games are a huge part of our sportsmanship activities and they are great for the dogs! It's like two churches fighting over differences... eventually you have to realize that the Satan is the enemy, not the church down the street who does things just a little differently than you do.


----------



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

What they SAY when I ask that questions is "birds not killed enough to tumble out of the sky will set their wings and sail quite a way away..." But the real answer is "we have to pick a winner and too many good dogs can do a good job at realistic distances." 

The clip of the Chessie doesn't show us the shot. But that retrieve was a (literal) "out to sea" blind. I think that maybe the bird had drifted quite a way?


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> Hmmm, why do they have such long retrieves in Field Trials? How would a dog ever have to retrieve a duck that far? My gun can only shoot a duck out to 40-50 yards.


Every hunter knows that a bird that has been hit, at no matter what range does one of two things; collapse in short order or fly on. The distance that a wounded bird can travel is remarkable; on a local driven shoot some couple of years ago both "Eddie" and I spotted a hen pheasant flinch a bit in the air and come to ground a long way off in a neck of woodland. I sent the old boy out for it and afterwards measured on an Ordnance Survey map how far it was before he came to terms. As best as I could judge it was 450 metres.

Below is a pic taken from a regular picking up spot of ours, about 300 -350 metres behind the Guns. On every drive we find pricked birds in the woodland behind us; to the point that it's the first area I send "Jack" (aka Supersnozzle) into whilst the other dogs work the slope in front picking off the marks both dead and running. 

Where they are hit is a different kettle of fish from where they land. Wether in the US or UK dogs have to find birds from many hundreds of metres away from where they are shot. So that's why.










Eug


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

John Lash said:


> Hmmm, why do they have such long retrieves in Field Trials? How would a dog ever have to retrieve a duck that far? My gun can only shoot a duck out to 40-50 yards.


 I am pretty sure there should be a sarcasm smiley here..............


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

John Lash said:


> Hmmm, why do they have such long retrieves in Field Trials? How would a dog ever have to retrieve a duck that far? My gun can only shoot a duck out to 40-50 yards.


Eug, appreciate the video as always, the visuals and all the ambience - but 'fraid you and the other respondee have been "wound up" as per the above. Not quite Borat having a go in Alabama






but pretty doggone close.:wink:

MG


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

If the question is indeed meant as a joke I can only suggest that John stays with the day job. 

Eug


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Now, now, Colonel - don't go harrumphing. Like a lot of us, Mr. Lash has to stay with his weekday job to support his weekend _*habit*_ of field trials.

MG


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Now, now, Colonel - don't go harrumphing. Like a lot of us, Mr. Lash has to stay with his weekday job to support his weekend _*habit*_ of field trials.
> 
> MG


Talking about staying with his weekday job MG !..Not going off topic ! But talking about 'Why American labs'? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YuWAVR4_c


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

polmaise said:


> Talking about staying with his weekday job MG !..Not going off topic ! But talking about 'Why American labs'?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YuWAVR4_c


That may be one of the best youtubes I have ever seen.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

polmaise said:


> Talking about staying with his weekday job MG !..Not going off topic ! But talking about 'Why American labs'?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YuWAVR4_c


That is some comical video, but not indicative of FT! It is a matter of choice what a person likes in his/her dog.IMO


----------



## ianbyrd (Dec 24, 2012)

Well, mine barks with an English accent and drinks his beer warm.


----------



## Al Bianchi (Jan 25, 2013)

I have tried field trial Lab pups from Britain. They look like US Labs, but much smaller. At the end of the day, well bred American field trial Labs are vastly superior.


----------



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

My MH is a dainty little thing at 55 pounds when she's all muscled up. American born and bred.

If I were British, I'd feel slandered every time an American refers to a bench champion as an "English lab".


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

Al Bianchi said:


> I have tried field trial Lab pups from Britain. They look like US Labs, but much smaller. At the end of the day, well bred American field trial Labs are vastly superior.


That's quite a conclusion from your test sample. Thanks for enlightening us. 

"I trained chocolate labs. They were like black labs, but much more chocolate. At the end of the day, well bred black labradors are vastly superior."


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I am pretty sure there should be a sarcasm smiley here..............


Sarcasm, yes. Or perhaps irony. Just saying what so many others say. 

I do agree with the FTers on both sides of the ocean.


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

If this sort of discussion is driving away the likes of Dave Combs (owner of one of the best looking fox reds I've ever seen) it's time to lighten up.



> "I trained chocolate labs. They were like black labs, but much more chocolate. At the end of the day, well bred black labradors are vastly superior."


I trained white and liver labs. They were like black labs, but much more white and liver. At the end of the day, well bred liver and white labradors are vastly superior. See below, liver and white Labrador in training as a no slip retriever.











Below, liver and white Labrador after picking up on a couple of drives in Scotland. American Labradors cannot achieve this position; their arses won't stay on the ground and their gobs are always open.



















Blimp


----------



## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

That last liver and white has chocolate legs.


----------



## txcountryboy1986 (Nov 19, 2013)

Ken Bora said:


>


 Lol, thats awesome lol


----------

