# do we REALLY need live birds?



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

the whole thread about live birds or freshly killed birds got me to thinking..

obviously I am not an animal hugger (taxidermist, regards)


Are live birds (fliers) reall, absolutely, 100% essential to proving our retrievers 'have what it takes'?

could the option of live fliers be made available to clubs, so that - in places like Alaska - our clubs could actually, maybe, not go deeper into the hole due to high bird costs?

no getting nasty allowed...honest and well thought opinions wanted. 

Juli


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Live fliers are fun but not necessary for the testing of dogs. Dogs that actually hunt, IMHO, are not overly affected by live fliers, they see hundreds of them every year.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

It seems live birds are more representative to a real hunting situation.
(Unless you hunt dead birds)
I think the dogs kinda like them.

However, not absolutely essential.


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

IMHO, flyers add a whole different dimension to tests that otherwise dead birds do not.

They are more exciting.

Their placement in the test often directly affects the dog(s) in terms of memory, lack thereof, suction and a whole host of things that dead birds do not begin to approach in the same manner.

Flyers in the test are also more apt to challenge overall focus, concentration, steadiness...to and for the dog...

This is just for starters.

Thanks for reading.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> IMHO, flyers add a whole different dimension to tests that otherwise dead birds do not.
> 
> They are more exciting.
> 
> ...


Nicely stated, I completely agree.

/Paul


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## Heather McCormack (Apr 4, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> IMHO, flyers add a whole different dimension to tests that otherwise dead birds do not.
> 
> They are more exciting.
> 
> ...


This is how I feel also about this...I think live flyers are needed. =)


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Juli if you run a UKC test you will not have a flyer , AKC you will get a flyer and Vickie is right ,,,,,,Sterlings Flyer was a sure test on being steady as the first 3 shots missed and by the time the 4th connected her bird was no where near the rest , it made for a very interesting mark .


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

and would you be willing to pay an extra $50 to run a test so that you could have your two live fliers, as required?

Juli


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Vickie is dead on . 'specially on steadiness.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

If flyers were not needed dogs would not have such problems with them.


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

Well I don´t want to offend anybody, just telling the situation in Germany. There we have less space und very strict rules. 
So we do have two kinds of test for the dogs: 
-There are the hunting-tests (which are really only for hunting-dogs used for hunting. There are not too many, reasons explain above...). They use birds for their tests (usually dead, there is only one test with a live bird) and rabbits.
-And then we have working-tests.
And for them only canvas-bumpers are used. They are always green and exactly 500 g, filled with Sand (they are heavier than US bumpers)

Well somehow it works. Maybe our dogs work lost their abilities to hunt I don´t know, but there is no other possibility and I kind of like the idea that no birds have to die just for the fun of my dog and me


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Alan,

your post brings up another point....

we want these tests to be as nearly equal for each dog as possible....'no birds' are of course a big issue with this desire....

the 'english' style tests are long behind us - letting the birds fall where they may and calling dogs to pick them up in no particular order....We have changed our venues in favor of wanting specific factors to play a roll in each dog's 'run'....

having one, or even two no birds is gonna mess up a dog that could otherwise have done extremely well, if all the birds had been dead (landed where they were supposed to or not missed by the gunners)....How does this fall in line with wanting the birds to land in a specific spot on a consistent basis, so that all dogs have the same exact test?

devil's advocate, again. 

Juli


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

Juli 
I would have to stay home , im not paying $50 extra for 2 flyers . I would just run HRC , i dont want a AKC title that bad . Wish you all the luck in the world ,,,,,,maybe with where you live the AKC could help deffer the cost .

Oh im with you on that , just like the upland in the grand , when you have a dog go to the 5th without a handle and you watch a dog run (who's bird ) fly's into the gallery the only shot they hear is the popper . Now your dog's bird fly's like hell and the gunners empty their guns 6 shots and a popper ,,,so 7 total shots .......did your dog get the same test (IMO) NO . But you know what they say its the grand .

And yes i know about the no birds , i have been lucky enough to get 4 no birds in a row with a hot head . 1st no bird , go back 3 dogs , heck we almost ended the flight . Next series we had to honor for 3 dogs , 1 no bird and 2 dogs broke ,,,,,,,,,,,so i have had my share of no birds .


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Sissi said:


> but there is no other possibility and I kind of like the idea that no birds have to die just for the fun of my dog and me


so the dead birds used in the tests are okay because they are not being shot in front of your eyes? 

Juli


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses. 
Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.

Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.

Cro-Magnon regards

Bubba


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

sky_view said:


> so the dead birds used in the tests are okay because they are not being shot in front of your eyes?
> 
> Juli


Hi Juli
no actually I was adressing the other kind of working-tests.
In Germany most of the tests are the ones without birds (only with bumpers)and I participate mostly in them. 
But as I said, thats just the situation I don´t know whether its bad or good.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Question how is live flyer's costing the club more money. They have to be shot but we use poppers or primers anyway. Does someone know where to get dead birds cheaper than live ones. Does it cost more other places other than Alaska.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.
> ...


Great post


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.
> ...


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.
> ...


I knew it would offend you guys sorry for That But Germany is far away...


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## Skybuster (May 5, 2008)

Vickie and Bubba gave all the answers anyone should need.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

I was just thinking the same thing this weekend watching a field trial.

They set up the amature for the first bird L - R to retire at about 275yds. 
2nd bird to the right of that thrown R - L at 225-250 yards. 3rd bird is right of the 2nd and a flyer at 350yds. a 350yd flier? it didn't look any different that the dead ones they threw. Thought it was a waste.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.
> ...


Did you get permission from Terry before posting this?

/Paul


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Sissi said:


> I knew it would offend you guys sorry for That But Germany is far away...


From where?


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

sky_view said:


> and would you be willing to pay an extra $50 to run a test so that you could have your two live fliers, as required?
> 
> Juli


For my $80. entry fee, there better be a flier in the 1st and 4th series!
BTW, fliers cost $9.-$11. each, delivered. Pheasants are even cheaper.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

gdluck said:


> I was just thinking the same thing this weekend watching a field trial.
> 
> They set up the amature for the first bird L - R to retire at about 275yds.
> 2nd bird to the right of that thrown R - L at 225-250 yards. 3rd bird is right of the 2nd and a flyer at 350yds. a 350yd flier? *it didn't look any different that the dead ones they threw.* Thought it was a waste.


You might want to get a little more savvy to what was going on before you go sizing something up as "a waste." In that setup, I guarantee you handlers were hoping what their dogs watched go down "didn't look any different than the dead ones they threw" too. And since you were there observing, why might that be?

Hey, Franco, might want to price flyers again, they're getting up there. But what really amuses me, spreching of der Deutschland, are the tests run in this country for German dogs. The tests include retrieve of a fox, and 99 percent of the handlers have to mail-order dead foxes to train with. I know, maybe Sissi could send them some of those precisely 500 gram turquoise dummies replete with a couple squirts of fox whiz.

MG


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

live birds cost $28 (I think) a piece - and I believe that is just getting them to Alaska - not including taking care of them after arrival...
so maybe just increasing our entry fees by $40 per dog is more reasonable....

Juli


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Hey, Franco, might want to price flyers again, they're getting up there. But what really amuses me, spreching of der Deutschland, are the tests run in this country for German dogs. The tests include retrieve of a fox, and 99 percent of the handlers have to mail-order dead foxes to train with. I know, maybe Sissi could send them some of those precisely 500 gram turquoise dummies replete with a couple squirts of fox whiz.
> 
> MG


Mike, we purchased 250 ducks last month for our trial. We paid $10.50 each, delivered. Got them from a gamebird breeder in Ivanhoe, Tx.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

At least he isn't wearing a bandanna.....

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Did you get permission from Terry before posting this?
> 
> /Paul



Be Killing Ducks for Senior dogs all weekend....stop by and say hi...I'll save ya a couple duck butts. Tailgate party at my place! Don't think the chuck wagon will be on the grounds this weekend. He's off playin' in Wyoming. We gonna need a BBQ? PG


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mr Booty said:


> Mike, we purchased 250 ducks last month for our trial. We paid $10.50 each, delivered. Got them from a gamebird breeder in Ivanhoe, Tx.



Texas is a long ways away from Alaska. I was honored to be invited to judge the open and amateur up in Fairbanks last year. Talk about expensive, they have to fly two judges up from the lower 48, put them up for the weekend, cover the cost of a rental car, ect, all for about 20 dogs per stake. Then the live birds are crazy. The club member I was staying with had to personally drive round trip from Alaska to Idaho and back. He took his truck and a trailer, bought the birds for the $10.00 you mentioed, tried to keep them all alive on the long drive home. This was when gas was $4.00 per gallon. Fed them and watered them, lost a buch due to the arduous drive on the AlCan Hwy. Then had to feed, water and keep the ducks warm durring a late cold spring. Yikes!

I've run a bunch of field trials in Canada where flyers are illegal and they are able to set up very challenging all age test. The Canadians are able to save up ducks they harvested over the hunting season. If I had to do that my birds would be scragley, their birds look like plump geese, very big and in great condition.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Sissi said:


> Hi Juli
> no actually I was adressing the other kind of working-tests.
> In Germany most of the tests are the ones without birds (only with bumpers)and I participate mostly in them.
> But as I said, thats just the situation I don´t know whether its bad or good.


Do you train with real birds at all? Do you hunt birds with your dog?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

If you don;t like flyers run HRC, If you don;t like birds run SRS, but shut the ....heck up about what others enjoy. 

The world is watching regards


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Why not use Dokkens? We could save a ton of money on entries and it is still testing the ability to mark. It would sure help me with my wild child at the line. He would learn that a trial was just another rubber retrieve. He gets too excited with the shooting of live flyers. 

Let us test marking not the excitement of a hunting situation. Maybe we should use some Neumann and Bennett's bumpers instead. They are even cheaper and a good 3" white one can be seen easily at 400 yds. Bumpers can be shot from Bumber Boys or other remote throwers, saving the cost of bird boys. We should get entries down to thirty bucks:roll:


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

CBR KAIE said:


> Be Killing Ducks for Senior dogs all weekend....stop by and say hi...I'll save ya a couple duck butts. Tailgate party at my place! Don't think the chuck wagon will be on the grounds this weekend. He's off playin' in Wyoming. We gonna need a BBQ? PG


I'll be over at Master B being mean to small mammals so drop over and say hey. Not hard to find  - Prolly not going to get to wear the new sundress this weekend though if the lying weatherguessers are right.

Somebody say tailgate? I'm assuming that you are serving LOTS of veggies cause God know they are good for you.

Celery makes me fart regards

Bubba


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

crackerd said:


> You might want to get a little more savvy to what was going on before you go sizing something up as "a waste." In that setup, I guarantee you handlers were hoping what their dogs watched go down "didn't look any different than the dead ones they threw" too. And since you were there observing, why might that be?
> 
> Hey, Franco, might want to price flyers again, they're getting up there. But what really amuses me, spreching of der Deutschland, are the tests run in this country for German dogs. The tests include retrieve of a fox, and 99 percent of the handlers have to mail-order dead foxes to train with. I know, maybe Sissi could send them some of those precisely 500 gram turquoise dummies replete with a couple squirts of fox whiz.
> 
> MG


Oh no doubt we can supply any kind of dummy you want. By the way here are the dummy we use for the working-tests.
http://www.romneys.de/10-stueck-sta...mmer.4642.html?sid=5en9miul03c8nl6152r63jk1r0
And you are right most people who train for hunting tests have to order the dead animals per mail I guess I have to apologize to you Guys for that. But in Germany nobody has the right to carry a gun and shoot anything. Only people who have the money to rent a property big enough to hunt there. It is kind of exclusive
And crackerd, how many tests have you run in Germany?? 
@Huntingdawg, no I don´t hunt birds in Germany. For me it is too expensive to do that. But I have some neighbors who sell me doves,ducks and rabbits to train with my dog for the Hunttests.

But believe me for training the bumpers do it as well. I really I don´t really know why a dog has to retrieve 100 ducks on Hunttests. Once it proved that it is able to retrieve ducks and rabbits, all the handling stuff doesn´t really require it. But as I said before, it is not possible to do it different in Germany. And by the way I didn´t start the topic, I just described the situation in Germany.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

We train and work with live birds. We raise them ourselves. We bring in chicks from the lower 48 and they are whatever we can get the cheapest. This year it is 500 hen pheasant at $0.38 each. Shipping added another $100. We do brood and feed and water and have a flight pen. All told it usually runs us about $6.00 to $8.00 a bird by the time we get to work them. It also doesn't get you any birds for the spring/early summer. You can overwinter them and my son says he is going to do that this year so he has birds to work in the spring. Just costs feed. I've brought in ducklings in years past for about $2.00 each, but the sources I was using are gone.

I had a friend who was approached a couple of years or so ago about supplying ducks but he said he couldn't get any kind of firm commitment from the clubs and wasn't willing to take the risk if they weren't committed. It is expensive and getting more difficult here, but what do you do. I will not work without birds. Otherwise it's just obedience. Fun, but not why I have dogs.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Retrievers are bird dogs, not rubber duckie dogs. The day we don't use live birds will be a sad day for the dogs.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I agree with Vicky!!

(sorry Vicky)

For those that think just cause you and yer dawg hunt, that a flyer in a TEST situation wont be a problem,, Well,, just go try it sometime. I think you will have a huge surprise!!

Have any of you big tuff guys,, ever stood in front of a drop dead gorgeous woman,, and found yerself totally tounge tied?? Even fergettin yer name?? or worse case,, just stand there starin into space droolin all over yerself!! 

FLYERS!!!!

I think its just about criminal, that an organization that prides itself with the fact they are a Hunter based organization doesnt shoot flyers at tests, even though its perfectly within the rules.

Some of the silly excuses you here of "WHY" is just unbelievable!

I LIKE Flyers in a test!!

Drooly regards:

Gooser


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

sky_view said:


> Are live birds (fliers) really, absolutely, 100% essential to proving our retrievers 'have what it takes'?


The short answer is yes.

Dogs will handle a freshly shot flier differently than a bird that has been dead for a while. And they treat them far differently than a bumper or rubber duck.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> 
> Bubba



The best reason for flyers...because we can.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Sissi said:


> Huntingdawg, no I don´t hunt birds in Germany. For me it is too expensive to do that. But I have some neighbors who sell me doves,ducks and rabbits to train with my dog for the Hunttests.
> 
> But believe me for training the bumpers do it as well. I really I don´t really know why a dog has to retrieve 100 ducks on Hunttests. Once it proved that it is able to retrieve ducks and rabbits, all the handling stuff doesn´t really require it. But as I said before, it is not possible to do it different in Germany. And by the way I didn´t start the topic, I just described the situation in Germany.


Ulrike, I was not trying to belittle you with my questions. I was just trying to find out if you had the experience to understand that there is a difference. Some of your comments seem to indicate that you do not see the difference, but I see that you have trained with real birds (and rabbits).

I'll enumerate a few of the reasons that I think it is a big deal that we use real birds (in no particular order):

1) Realism.
2) There are dogs that will pick up bumpers, but will not pick up birds. Generally that can be overcome, but until it is I do not want to hunt with that dog and the dog does not deserve hunting titles. I cannot tell you how many times I have been to a hunt test (started or junior) or a training session and someone's dog tears out after the bird, gets there and won't pick it up. The explanation from the trainer is almost always that the dog isn't used to birds. Sometimes they show up at hunt tests and they have never retrieved a single bird. We train with bumpers here a lot. Generally the pro's don't except for certain drills, blinds, force fetch, etc. However, many amateurs such as myself train with some form of bumper (canvas, plastic, Dokken, etc.) most of the time. However, bumpers are not just as good as birds and the dogs who show up who (to the astonishment of their owners) will not pick up a duck are proof of that.
3) Cripples. With the shot flyer you sometimes get a cripple that the dog has to pursue. Many other times you get a bird that just isn't quite dead yet but isn't going anywhere. They may still be flapping their wings still just as the nervous system hasn't quite shut down yet. Many times dogs who haven't been exposed to this in training will not pick these birds up. As I stated above, that can PROBABLY be overcome with exposure and proper training, but I don't want to hunt with or award a title to that dog until he is willing to pick up a quivering duck or chase a swimming, running, quacking duck. In reality, both #2 and #3 fall under the heading of realism.
4) To test steadiness. Most dogs simply get a lot more excited about picking up birds (shot flyers even more so and at hunt test distances they can definitely tell the difference) than bumpers. As a result, real birds and shot flyers in particular are simply a much better test of steadiness. I do not want to hunt with or award titles to a dog that is perfectly steady on bumpers, but breaks on birds.
5) As others have alluded to, the use of shot flyers can add "factors" to a set up that may make it more difficult for the dogs to pick up the other marks.
6) Just because we can. Some of us Americans still delight in exercising our freedoms, sometimes just because we can. At our hunt tests you will find real guns (either in the flyer station or at the line) and real birds just because we can.

Ulrike, I think it is a darn shame that it is so difficult (expensive) to hunt in your country. I think it is a terrible that citizens cannot own guns in Germany. I think it is a shame that the "hunting dogs" in Germany do not get more opportunities to pick up real game whether it be in hunting, training or in hunt tests or field trials. None of that is YOUR fault, but I think if you had those freedoms you would understand why some of us still cling to them so defiantly.

Good luck to you and your dogs.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Sooooooo...how does everybody feel about killing all the pigs in Egypt?


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.
> ...


 so i guess if one of these little prissy necked slackjawed allhoses was born unto you you would:
1 kill him at birth
2 slap him around a little to tough him up
3 hide him away like rudolph dad did
ALL kids arent manly football jocks and when i hear people put em down it makes me want to puke. Hell lets just go back to totin clubs and draggin our women by the hair back to the cave


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Fliers? Yes, absolutely yes. Trials would not be the same without fliers. Watch the dogs and how they act, and watch the flier. Watch their preference for the flier.

I think it's on one of Mike Lardy's tapes, something like the flier is what makes the American trials so different, in that everyones flier is just a little bit different.

John Lash


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## Laranie Labs (Apr 9, 2006)

Marty Lee said:


> so i guess if one of these little prissy necked slackjawed allhoses was born unto you you would:
> 1 kill him at birth
> 2 slap him around a little to tough him up
> 3 hide him away like rudolph dad did
> ALL kids arent manly football jocks and when i hear people put em down it makes me want to puke. Hell lets just go back to totin clubs and draggin our women by the hair back to the cave


Sounds like someone should have "toughed" you up a long time ago...your 7th grade english teacher perhaps?

Larry


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.
> ...


I'll Second THAT!!


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Russ said:


> Why not use Dokkens? We could save a ton of money on entries and it is still testing the ability to mark. It would sure help me with my wild child at the line. He would learn that a trial was just another rubber retrieve. He gets too excited with the shooting of live flyers.
> 
> Let us test marking not the excitement of a hunting situation. Maybe we should use some Neumann and Bennett's bumpers instead. They are even cheaper and a good 3" white one can be seen easily at 400 yds. Bumpers can be shot from Bumber Boys or other remote throwers, saving the cost of bird boys. We should get entries down to thirty bucks:roll:


I guess you weren't around for the NAHRA "blowup" about 8 years ago..... Just look at what happened to a pretty strong testing program because of trying to implement the use of Dokkens. 

Actually.... try to get AKC to do it.... then maybe NAHRA will enjoy a more rapid come-back

Oh.... but I guess you're being sarcastic..... darn....


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Mr Booty said:


> For my $80. entry fee, there better be a flier in the 1st and 4th series!
> BTW, fliers cost $9.-$11. each, delivered. Pheasants are even cheaper.


Hmmm... I think Juli is asking because up here, fliers end up costing the clubs more than $20.00 each. Entries cost the club around $125 each although we don't charge that to the handlers. Plus it's a pain to get them here. 

Juli, the AKC clubs have obtained a waiver from AKC to have dead bird trial due to the hardship on our clubs. We won't be using it this year, but have it in our pocket in case some tragedy happens and the ducks don't make it up the ALCAN... Ps, the frozen ones that we get for our training groups are $18-$21.00 depending on the quantity being shipped. I just got an order of 50 for our group and they were $21 each...


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

gsc said:


> We train and work with live birds. We raise them ourselves. We bring in chicks from the lower 48 and they are whatever we can get the cheapest. This year it is 500 hen pheasant at $0.38 each. Shipping added another $100. We do brood and feed and water and have a flight pen. All told it usually runs us about $6.00 to $8.00 a bird by the time we get to work them. It also doesn't get you any birds for the spring/early summer. You can overwinter them and my son says he is going to do that this year so he has birds to work in the spring. Just costs feed. I've brought in ducklings in years past for about $2.00 each, but the sources I was using are gone.
> 
> I had a friend who was approached a couple of years or so ago about supplying ducks but he said he couldn't get any kind of firm commitment from the clubs and wasn't willing to take the risk if they weren't committed. It is expensive and getting more difficult here, but what do you do. I will not work without birds. Otherwise it's just obedience. Fun, but not why I have dogs.


Who are you talking about? I know of no-one who has the facilities to raise the birds.. Sent you a PM


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Personally, I like the taste of shot fliers far better than a 2 week dead reused mallard.

just sayin!!

Club totin' football jock regards!!


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## Laranie Labs (Apr 9, 2006)

road kill said:


> Club totin' football jock regards!!


:lol::lol::lol:

Larry


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

> I really I don´t really know why a dog has to retrieve 100 ducks on Hunttests. Once it proved that it is able to retrieve ducks and rabbits, all the handling stuff doesn´t really require it.


Because field trials in the *United States* are about hunting live game. We use dead birds to "simulate" live bird throws. We use a flyer to have the real deal. Field trials are more than just saying your dog will retrieve. It's about saying your dogs will retrieve live game under all types of conditions and circumstances better than the field that day! 

I train and trial on live birds. I only use bumpers for young puppies and for blind retrieves (sometimes). My dogs exhibit a very different demeanor when watching even a dead _*real*_ duck or pheasant vs. a bumper. I do not and WILL NOT own a dokken duck or any other brand of rubber duck. If I want rubber ducks, they will be in the bath tub & I outgrew that many, many years ago.

AKC rules mandate 2.5 live ducks per dog are to be available at field trials. The rule is not there to support club treasuries; it is there because it is important to the sport and to the dogs that compete. If clubs have increases in costs, cutting out the flyers is not the answer--raise the entry fee to assure a break-even point.

For those who think live birds are not important--go play with a frisbee!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DEDEYE said:


> Hmmm... I think Juli is asking because up here, fliers end up costing the clubs more than $20.00 each. Entries cost the club around $125 each although we don't charge that to the handlers. Plus it's a pain to get them here.
> 
> Juli, the AKC clubs have obtained a waiver from AKC to have dead bird trial due to the hardship on our clubs. We won't be using it this year, but have it in our pocket in case some tragedy happens and the ducks don't make it up the ALCAN... Ps, the frozen ones that we get for our training groups are $18-$21.00 depending on the quantity being shipped. I just got an order of 50 for our group and they were $21 each...


Mary, it appears from your post that you are paying as much for frozen birds as for flyers up there. I'd have a hard time paying $21 for a frozen bird
In that case it would appear to be an obvious choice to me as to which to use

Flyers Forever regards!!


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

If I wanted to hunt frozen birds, I would hunt at a supermarket not a marsh as would my dog.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> Who are you talking about? I know of no-one who has the facilities to raise the birds.. Sent you a PM


 This may be a dumb question Mary, but why couldn't someone raise birds around Anchorage or Wasilla? I know many times you are much warmer than us in Wisconsin in the winter although you have much more snow. Is it the feed is expensive to bring up?


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I am sorry and hope this is taken for what its worth but at our trial the birds delivered start out live. If you have a need to raise prices to offset a cost incurred than its the game you play so the cost is the cost. 

This is supposed to represent simulated day hunting. 

My last point is that Gooser is a Genius. Imagine the difference between a real woman and a blow up doll. For the ladies you can exchange that for a man and for those in San Fransisco whatever. 

I understand why the SRS feels the need to use rubber ducks even though I disagree it their game. I also feel that the newest RAC rules are 1 step closer to having rubber ducks to play with.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

mjh345 said:


> Mary, it appears from your post that you are paying as much for frozen birds as for flyers up there. I'd have a hard time paying $21 for a frozen bird
> In that case it would appear to be an obvious choice to me as to which to use
> 
> Flyers Forever regards!!


It's more about getting the fliers up here to Alaska. We have one guy that picks them all up for ALL 3 clubs, then trucks them 2000 miles from the Lower 48, then we put them in a large bird pen and this same person and a friend takes care of them the whole summer. This will be his last summer doing that because he is getting older and is tired of doing it and I don't blame him. Flying them up is hard because we have to have special crates built and the airlines just don't like doing it. So, we have to have alternatives for the future.....


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Bubba said:


> I'll be over at Master B being mean to small mammals so drop over and say hey. Not hard to find  - Prolly not going to get to wear the new sundress this weekend though if the lying weatherguessers are right.
> 
> Somebody say tailgate? I'm assuming that you are serving LOTS of veggies cause God know they are good for you.
> 
> ...


You bring the see through flowered rain poncho and I'll bring a few extra bonnets....Summer dresses are always in season with the right rain gear.











No rubber ducky retriever parking allowed.....


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> This may be a dumb question Mary, but why couldn't someone raise birds around Anchorage or Wasilla? I know many times you are much warmer than us in Wisconsin in the winter although you have much more snow. Is it the feed is expensive to bring up?


There arent the facilities to raise ducks, and the place where we get pheasants can't have pheasants flight ready until the 3rd week of July. Our season last until mid August and starts the end of May. Quite short..


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> IMHO, flyers add a whole different dimension to tests that otherwise dead birds do not.
> 
> They are more exciting.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of what Vickie says here. 

To add, I have known dogs who flare off of live, flapping birds. You will never know this if you don't test for it.

Lisa


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Marty Lee said:


> so i guess if one of these little prissy necked slackjawed allhoses was born unto you you would:
> 1 kill him at birth
> 2 slap him around a little to tough him up
> 3 hide him away like rudolph dad did
> ALL kids arent manly football jocks and when i hear people put em down it makes me want to puke. Hell lets just go back to totin clubs and draggin our women by the hair back to the cave


 
Nobody is putting down prissy necked slackjawed allhoses. What we're putting down is the fact that those prissy necked slackjawed allhoses suddenly believe they have a right to tell us what we can and cannot do. We're not telling prissy necked slackjawed allhoses they can't be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses, if they want to be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses then let them be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses. We're not putting them down for being prissy necked slackjawed allhoses, but we'd prefer they stick to planning their little parades for prissy necked slackjawed allhoses and leave our activities alone. Otherwise we should get to tell the prissy necked slackjawed allhoses which colors to use in thier prissy necked slackjawed allhose parades and dictate which feathers, boas, doylies and lace that prissy necked slackjawed allhoses can wear. So please don't get the wrong impression, we're not putting down your friends, we're putting down thier dictating what we can or cannot do.

/Paul


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

so opening season on them is not putting them down


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Marty Lee said:


> so opening season on them is not putting them down


Nobody opened season on tofu eating, tree hugging, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses. Bubba did say that the optimum solution was an open season on "whiney little baskirds."

Are YOU calling the tofu eating, tree hugging, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses "whiney little baskirds"?

The open season on whiney little baskirds has not begun. It has only been proposed as an optimum solution. First we would have to define "whiney little baskird." Then we would have to determine the appropriate weapons for legally taking whiney little baskirds, daily and season bag limits, season dates, legal hours for taking whiney little baskirds, any restrictions on the use of lights at night, electronic calls, etc. It is really quite a process so the actual open season on whiney little baskirds will likely never come to fruition.

non tofu eating tree hugging regards


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> What we're putting down is the fact that those prissy necked slackjawed allhoses suddenly believe they have a right to tell us what we can and cannot do.
> /Paul


Paul, it goes deeper than that. They want to tell us what we *should *and *should not *do.

Too much of the world has lost touch with rights and abilities. They don't understand where food comes from and what it really cost. I hope we never do. I for one will not go quietly. Enough Rant.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Frankly I was hoping to get a little better discussion about the PROS and CONS of using live birds...

don't want to hear about dokkens or plastic ducks. Obviously REAL birds need to be used...

I have heard and already knew about all the reasons FOR having live birds and agree with them all...
about the only reason against using live birds, that I have, is because they are very expensive for our clubs up here....and maybe the 'fairness' factor (fly aways, no birds)....

Mary, I am glad you guys were able to get a waiver from the AKC for not HAVING to use live birds, if something should happen that would prevent it....At least someone has some common sense.

I just can't see how the AKC can expect you guys to continue losing money because you have to buy live birds...heck, even the dead ones put a big burden on the clubs.

In Canada they do not use live birds? is this correct?
haven't heard any Canadians chime in (that I know of)....

Juli


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> There arent the facilities to raise ducks, and the place where we get pheasants can't have pheasants flight ready until the 3rd week of July. Our season last until mid August and starts the end of May. Quite short..


I have to admit that ducks are a messy bunch but I got all my birds in February and raised them in the barn under a big brooder. I'm still not understanding.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

DEDEYE said:


> Who are you talking about? I know of no-one who has the facilities to raise the birds. Sent you a PM


I have a friend who owns a section of land out at Pt. Mckenzie and he used to raise pheasant and run pheasant hunts along with his buffalo. We raised a few ducks several years ago and someone from the clubs talked to him about the ducks. I don't remember how many ducks and when they are needed. It is possible to bring in ducklings a couple times a year and have them for the trials. The trials that are held out at Pt. Mckenzie have been held in part accross for his place. I think I met some of you there a couple of years ago. I had gone out to work my dogs and watched part of the open.

I've raised 40 or 50 in my back yard for my own use. We've moved the birds to my son's house this year, he has 5 acres and has GSPs, so we both enjoy working with them. I've over wintered a few ducks before. They do fine, just need food and water that isn't hard. We just used heated dog dishes. How many ducks do you go through for the trials/tests in a season?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

sky_view said:


> Frankly I was hoping to get a little better discussion about the PROS and CONS of using live birds...
> 
> don't want to hear about dokkens or plastic ducks. Obviously REAL birds need to be used...
> 
> ...


Frankly, 

Everything is expensive in Alaska except oil, fish and caribou meat. Traveling to AK, Shipping to AK, Groceries in AK, paying people to work in AK. We all chose our hobbies and pursue many of them based upon what fits in our budgets. To decide to use or not to use birds based on cost in your location is personal choice. I feel for you because your location adds in difficulty factors to your chosen hobby which is a favorite for which we all share a common passion. 

In the same breath, I would be upset if any of my local clubs in Seattle ever chose not to use live birds because they aren't readily available in Alaska or, because it somehow wouldn't be fair to those who train dogs in Alaska or, our neighbors in Canada for that matter.....not picking on you Juli...still luvya! 

I was up at the Evan Graham seminar in Victoria, BC a couple weeks ago. I did learn they are allowed to train and shoot fliers on private grounds but, I assumed(maybe wrongfully) that not many folks train with live birds because they aren't used in tests/trials. I would assume(again, maybe wrongfully) that there would be a whole bunch of breaking dogs, especially at a hunt test, when a quaking flier is punched up in a dogs face with a big cloud of feathers flying.....Saw some nice dogs with tremendous drive...just thinkin'....

ohh yeah, what about raising ptarmigans? --sorry to lazy to look up the right spelling...


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Just out of curiousity and the fact that I like getting kicked in the teethe 

If your arguement is that live fliers represent what real dogs do so that is the way it should be because it adds great realism, then why doesn't AKC put a popper round in the gun and let you shoot? Now that might add some excitement.

For the record

I am anti rubber ducks
I am not against live fliers, actually kind of like them, the question was are they necessary? 
I primarily run HRC but I do run some AKC, at the distance thrown my dogs knew no difference between the live fliers and dead birds.


Just some thoughts

Ready for a beating now.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

CBR KAIE said:


> Everything is expensive in Alaska except oil, fish and caribou meat. luvya!
> 
> ohh yeah, what about raising ptarmigans? --sorry to lazy to look up the right spelling...


Now you will have problems. First all species of the grouse family are very difficult to raise, not to ignore the legal issues.

And oil is expensive here, we have some of the highest gas prices in the country ($2.47 today)... go figure

Raising birds is doable, you just have to find someone willing to do it. We raise mallards, pheasant and chukar because they are not regulated by the govmt. You can also "hunt" them year round.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

CBR KAIE said:


> Frankly,
> 
> Everything is expensive in Alaska
> ohh yeah, what about raising ptarmigans? --sorry to lazy to look up the right spelling...


your spelling is correct Paul...ptarmigan for singular and plural though. 

Yes, everything is expensive up here....
electricity bill last month was $300..but the highest we had this winter was $550....if that don't scare ya, I don't know what will.(average size house, no garage, gas stove and dryer, wood heat)...LOL LOL LOL

thankfully with summer our electric bill will drop considerably...don't have to plug the vehicles in, which really sucks the juice down....

Juli


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ken Newcomb said:


> Just out of curiousity and the fact that I like getting kicked in the teethe
> 
> I primarily run HRC but I do run some AKC, at the distance thrown my dogs knew no difference between the live fliers and dead birds.
> 
> ...


Not really a kick in the teeth[e], however I know my dogs definitelyu know the difference; whether the flyer is in their face, or 400 yards away.

You may need to CERF your pooches
Just sayin...


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Ken Newcomb said:


> I do run some AKC, at the distance thrown my dogs knew no difference between the live fliers and dead birds.


That is truly surprising. At the most recent AKC HT I handled in there was a shot flyer in the 1st (land) series. The ducks left the gun station quacking (clearly audible from the line to humans as well as dogs) and flapping their wings (clearly visible). After multiple gun blasts (more exciting than a single shot from a popper gun) a huge cloud of feathers billowed out behind the still arcing duck (the dogs had to run through the scent created by the clouds of feathers in order to reach the long, middle memory bird - the flier was the go bird). When the ducks hit the ground some were still quacking (audible from the line). Some were dead but were still flapping their wings in the "dying quiver" (visible from the line as we were up hill from the mark). Others raised their heads and began to try to walk through the high grass (somewhat visible from the line).

Those must have been some horrible judges you ran under (or horrible lighting/weather conditions) if the difference between a dead bird and a flier was not visible from the line. Although judges routinely ignore the fact that marks should not normally exceed 100 yards, a flier stands out from at least 150 yards in my experience and you really shouldn't be seeing AKC HT marks farther than that IMO. I'm sure our FT friends will tell you that their dogs can tell the difference at much greater distances, but I have no experience with those distances.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

There are several things that make the flyer ... particularly the National quality Hen Pheasant Flyer special and worth preserving.

First, nothing tests the eyesight of a dog like a National quality Hen Pheasant flyer, which may land 50+ yards from the gun. A dog that runs to the gun and hunts the area where a dead bird or duck flyer typically lands will not come up with a bird. Many national championships have been won and lost on the Hen Pheasant Flyer.

Second, nothing tests the nose of a dog like a National quality Hen Pheasant flyer. A dog that reaches the appropriate area of fall must still discriminate between its birds and several other freshly shot birds.

Third, nothing tests the skill of the handler like a National quality Hen Pheasant Flyer. A handler can ignore the placement of dead birds. They generally fall in the same place. But, the skillful handler must carefully mark where the flyer falls in order to properly line the dog and, if necessary, handle them. Handlers have finished Nationals with clean handles and have been dropped with poor handles. To recall where the bird fell under the excitement of a National ... especially in the Tenth Series is a true test of the focus of a handler.

Fourth, when a dog comes to the line and sees a stake of orange crates and two to three white jackets, it knows it is going to get a flyer. The anticipation of that flyer affects how much attention the dog will give to the other birds. The dog is more likely to break on the flyer than any other bird. Therefore the flyer is a great test of training.

Fifth, when the judges have skillfully placed the flyer, flyer feathers which drift with the wind, will cause some dogs to break down and hunt, thereby testing memory.

Sixth, the excitement of the flyer, and the visual reminders of the flyer (crates, gunners) often have a huge impact on the dog’s ability and willingness to recall dead birds. Moreover, the excitement of the hunt and retrieve of the flyer have the power to erase the memory of dead bird falls.

Seventh, nothing allows the judge to evaluate the qualities of a dog’s mouth, then the condition in which a freshly shot bird is returned.

In short, there are things that you get with a flyer that dead birds, plastic birds, or canvas bumpers simply cannot provide.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Great post. I love the annual hen pheasant flier at the spring LRC trial in Maryland for just the reasons you have stated. However, I do have one question with which I have struggled for some time:

What is the correct spelling: flyer or flier?

According to the dictionaries I have consulted, "flier" seems to be the more appropriate spelling with "flyer" as a variant. However, none of the definitions seem to capture the spirit of a live bird released and shot. And so, while I have considered myself to be a frequent flier of airplanes, I've always referred to shot live birds as "flyers" and ignored the little red lines telling me that I had mis-spelled the word. Recently, however, I have begun to give in to dictionary pressure, spelling the word "flier" more often than not. Is there an RTF (or even AKC) standard that we can use for guidance? Am I the only one seeking clarity in place of _angst_?


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

YardleyLabs said:


> What is the correct spelling: flyer or flier?
> 
> According to the dictionaries I have consulted, "flier" seems to be the more appropriate spelling with "flyer" as a variant. However, none of the definitions seem to capture the spirit of a live bird released and shot. And so, while I have considered myself to be a frequent flier of airplanes, I've always referred to shot live birds as "flyers" and ignored the little red lines telling me that I had mis-spelled the word. Recently, however, I have begun to give in to dictionary pressure, spelling the word "flier" more often than not. Is there an RTF (or even AKC) standard that we can use for guidance? Am I the only one seeking clarity in place of _angst_?


Just right-click and select "Add to dictionary" and the red lines are gone forever!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I agree with the fact that the dog that is running 27th out of a 30 dog field,, had better pay particular attention to that flyer mark, and be able to distinguish between old scent cones,, and the one he suposedly marked!!
You will find out real fast just how well your dog marks, and the confidence it has!

Also I know for a fact, that there are HT titled dogs that have MAJOR issues with crippled or wiggling birds, but because they are never tested with this senario it, has never been a problem with them recieving a TITLE ribbon!
I dont know bout the rest of you,, but one of the MAJOR reasons I want a well trained dog, is to be able to have that dog pick up crippled birds . In my mind, it should ALWAYS be part of any Retriever Test!

Just so everthing is perfectly clear!

My heart is with HRC! I love the people, the fun tests,ect. BUT,, I do think that Flyers Should be part of that fine organizations program! It is well within the rules, but PEOPLE stop the use of them for the sillyest reasons!!

JMHDAO!!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

DID I spelt sillyest wrong?

Gooser


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> DID I spelt sillyest wrong?
> 
> Gooser


Good question! Almost as good as "Is anal retentive hyphenated?"

HAHAHAHA

Lisa


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> What is the correct spelling: flyer or flier?
> 
> ...Am I the only one seeking clarity in place of _angst_?


Jeff, lad, angst is the hen flyer. Chuck Yeager is a *flier* who wasn't angst-ridden, angst-driven or angst-_flown_, either.

Angst can also be a cockbird flyer of 50 yards when the dog marks it at 49, hunts back to 45 yards from the gun, 40, 35, 30--back out to 35, 40, 45, 49--and never gets there so you pick up the dog though at least not getting the flyer "ditches" the angst.

Nice peroration there, Ted, very nice.

MG


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Don't know about anyone else but I am getting real damn tired of having every aspect of my life dictated by tofu eating, tree hugging, leave no child behind, everyone wins prissy little pencil necked slack jawed allhoses.
> Hunting is the one last arena where I can stand on my back legs and be free to be an omnivore. I guarantee you that if my dogs get to vote they see it that way too. It's got nothing to do with harming small mammals- it's all about relishing my position at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Prolly the optimum outcome would be to open a season on whiney little baskirds.
> ...



Alright Cro-Magnum top of the food chain man. Jump into the Pacific with your mammalion arse and see how long you are at the top of the food chain.

Fins regards


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Alright Cro-Magnum top of the food chain man. Jump into the Pacific with your mammalion arse and see how long you are at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Fins regards


Ahhh but the ability to reason and opposable thumbs gives us the tools to build boats and harpoons. On land it would be 4 wheel drive and guns. 

Lion..... note to self do not bring fangs to a gunfight.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Alright Cro-Magnum top of the food chain man. Jump into the Pacific with your mammalion arse and see how long you are at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Fins regards



Nothin' in our neck of the woods which causes any worry...

Speakin' for Bubba--top of the food chain in the great northwest regards,


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

CBR KAIE said:


> Nothin' in our neck of the woods which causes any worry...
> 
> Speakin' for Bubba--top of the food chain in the great northwest regards,


Good Lord whos said anything about woods I said the Pacific as in sharks and whales and such that will eat a small......well a mammal like Bubba(yes I saw a pic)

If Bubba don't like the barb I'm sure he will pm me and tell me to .....:razz:


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Good Lord whos said anything about woods I said the Pacific as in sharks and whales and such that will eat a small......well a mammal like Bubba(yes I saw a pic)
> 
> If Bubba don't like the barb I'm sure he will pm me and tell me to .....:razz:



Aint no sharks of worry around here.....maybe a bump from a sea lion to scare you outta your shorts but, thats about it....

Anyways, the barbs gone....Bubba's giving away the wheelbarrow of blue pills.....


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

CBR KAIE said:


> Aint no sharks of worry around here.....maybe a bump from a sea lion to scare you outta your shorts but, thats about it....
> 
> Anyways, the barbs gone....Bubba's giving away the wheelbarrow of blue pills.....


Blue pills? next flight regards.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I agree with the fact that the dog that is running 27th out of a 30 dog field,, had better pay particular attention to that flyer mark, and be able to distinguish between old scent cones,, and the one he suposedly marked!!
> You will find out real fast just how well your dog marks, and the confidence it has!
> 
> Also I know for a fact, that there are HT titled dogs that have MAJOR issues with crippled or wiggling birds, but because they are never tested with this senario it, has never been a problem with them recieving a TITLE ribbon!
> ...


Gooser, If you would just show up at another HRC test (we miss you man) if I am judging I will find a way to test your dog on a cripple.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

duk4me said:


> Alright Cro-Magnum top of the food chain man. Jump into the Pacific with your mammalion arse and see how long you are at the top of the food chain.
> 
> Fins regards


No worries- I'm HIGHLY bouyant

In fact some folks call me bob.

Good advice from Bubba- never pass up a chance to eat shark- dern certain they souldn't pass up a chance to eat you.

Trembling earth regards

Bubba

PS- Pretty hard to get in Bubba's knickers- theres one allhose in there already


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bubba said:


> No worries- I'm HIGHLY bouyant
> 
> In fact some folks call me bob.
> 
> ...


Figured you were HIGHLY bouyant can't believe you didn't tell the person on another thread about the water proof papers ya'll used to use.

Hey I wear knickers too.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mr Newcombe!!

SEE!!!!! Now Ya got it out fer ME!!!!

I'mm gonna run some more Finished tests with the Bailey dog. 
I'm TRYIN to get her to get a Senior AKC designation!

The problem has been steadyness,, and Ya guessed it the flyer!!:shock: 

I have really been surprised how that flyer has effected her marking! I just dread the short shot Flyer!

The Young dog is a basket case!!!! She just abuses me ever where we go!!

Look forward to seein Ya agin!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mr Newcombe!!

Why dont YOU break the trend and hold a HRC test with shot flyers!!??????

I bet Ya kin find some a them Nebraskeans that can SOMEWHAT shoot!!


HEHEHE!

Gooser


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## Roger Perry (Nov 6, 2003)

We could always use a dead mackerel, that way we can also teach our dogs to fish.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

A good well train dog will pick up anything. Flyers are tradition, that's fine. Personally don't care one way or another.


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

I have always understood and accepted the fact that a well placed flyer could make or break a test. A flyer can be used to create suction to an area or away from another---i just cannot immagine a trial without a flyer. I have been involved in trials where a short flyer eleminated 2/3 of the field in the 4th series because those dogs were not steady enough.
too get a different view i contacted a Canadian buddy of mine and asked him how he prepared his dogs to run American trials, and what he thought of the flyer in trials.

here was his answer:

We didn’t have to prepare the dogs on rotation and on selection as in American trials. Gone is the pull of the flyer and Canadian dogs soon learn to pick up the dead birds in any order because they don’t have that “lust” for the flyer.

The flyer made the American field trial game a notch above ours. The control needed on open level marks with retired guns and well placed flyers allows us to test the control that can be accomplished in dog training. 

A dead bird trial is a bit boring and they try to make it exciting by working on lines to the mark. Boring.
just my take on the thread
GG


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Nobody is putting down prissy necked slackjawed allhoses. What we're putting down is the fact that those prissy necked slackjawed allhoses suddenly believe they have a right to tell us what we can and cannot do. We're not telling prissy necked slackjawed allhoses they can't be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses, if they want to be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses then let them be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses. We're not putting them down for being prissy necked slackjawed allhoses, but we'd prefer they stick to planning their little parades for prissy necked slackjawed allhoses and leave our activities alone. Otherwise we should get to tell the prissy necked slackjawed allhoses which colors to use in thier prissy necked slackjawed allhose parades and dictate which feathers, boas, doylies and lace that prissy necked slackjawed allhoses can wear. So please don't get the wrong impression, we're not putting down your friends, we're putting down thier dictating what we can or cannot do.
> 
> /Paul


Dat dare is some funny hsit. Glad I'm not a prissy necked slackjawed allhose, ouch.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Nobody is putting down prissy necked slackjawed allhoses. What we're putting down is the fact that those prissy necked slackjawed allhoses suddenly believe they have a right to tell us what we can and cannot do. We're not telling prissy necked slackjawed allhoses they can't be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses, if they want to be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses then let them be prissy necked slackjawed allhoses. We're not putting them down for being prissy necked slackjawed allhoses, but we'd prefer they stick to planning their little parades for prissy necked slackjawed allhoses and leave our activities alone. Otherwise we should get to tell the prissy necked slackjawed allhoses which colors to use in thier prissy necked slackjawed allhose parades and dictate which feathers, boas, doylies and lace that prissy necked slackjawed allhoses can wear. So please don't get the wrong impression, we're not putting down your friends, we're putting down thier dictating what we can or cannot do.
> 
> /Paul



Paul,

I am very disappointed in you. I can't believe you post this and don't include one of your famous pics of prissy necked slackjawed allhoses.

Tim


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

All the birds had to be alive at some point. Someone fed them, raised them, delivered them.

That person could have shot them all at home for his/her dogs and brought the dead ones . But if we want flyers, we have to cough up a few bucks.

Jerry


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Juli if live ducks are $28 and dead ones are $21 what's the real difference in costs?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> Juli if live ducks are $28 and dead ones are $21 what's the real difference in costs?


I'm guessing $7


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Juli if live ducks are $28 and dead ones are $21 what's the real difference in costs?


Hassle. 

They all come up on a pickup truck pulling a trailer for 2500 or so miles. Boyd Woodward the guy who brings them over the Alaska Hiway is over 70 years old and doesn't want to be doing it anymore. Nobody else is on the horizon to take over. 

The ducks arrive about a week before our first trial, May 29 this year, and they must be cared for until the last hunt test ~ August 10. 

Last year a vet from the Dept of Ag or somewhere was supposed to check them. The vet we had contact info for was vacationing out of state and nobody knew of another Dept of Ag vet who could release our ducks for use. Finally 6:00 pm the night before the trial we got another vet who could release our birds. We only found the vet because one of our club members is an employee of the Alaska Dept of Fish and Game. She knew some federal counterparts that knew another vet who could release our birds. 

After that we decided to look into an all dead bird option.

The airlines won't fly live birds. The mail won't allow mailing of live birds. We're stuck driving them up the hiway. The two governments, Canada and the US are making the hoops to jump through harder and harder. Heck, they don't even tell us what the hoops are sometimes.


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

Howard,

I assume you are talking about adults, you can still get chicks and ducklings in the mail no problem. We brought our pheasant in the first of April, but I know you can get the mallards just about year round.


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## Bob Agnor (Nov 25, 2004)

YardleyLabs said:


> Great post. I love the annual hen pheasant flier at the spring LRC trial in Maryland for just the reasons you have stated. However, I do have one question with which I have struggled for some time:
> 
> What is the correct spelling: flyer or flier?
> 
> According to the dictionaries I have consulted, "flier" seems to be the more appropriate spelling with "flyer" as a variant. However, none of the definitions seem to capture the spirit of a live bird released and shot. And so, while I have considered myself to be a frequent flier of airplanes, I've always referred to shot live birds as "flyers" and ignored the little red lines telling me that I had mis-spelled the word. Recently, however, I have begun to give in to dictionary pressure, spelling the word "flier" more often than not. Is there an RTF (or even AKC) standard that we can use for guidance? Am I the only one seeking clarity in place of _angst_?


Jeff It really depends if you are a true hockey fan or not. 

Let's go Flyers ( next year )

Bob


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Marty Lee said:


> Hell lets just go back to totin clubs and draggin our women by the hair back to the cave


Now you're talking!!!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Marty Lee said:


> so i guess if one of these little prissy necked slackjawed allhoses was born unto you you would:
> 1 kill him at birth
> 2 slap him around a little to tough him up
> 3 hide him away like rudolph dad did




No little prissy necked slackjawed are typically born to parents of the same make up.


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

Somewhere along the line I think a LIVE Bird is required in order to get a DEAD bird.

Jerry


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

Mr Booty said:


> For my $80. entry fee, there better be a flier in the 1st and 4th series!
> BTW, fliers cost $9.-$11. each, delivered. Pheasants are even cheaper.


$80???? Wow!! So, $20 goes to the live flyers, $2 for ammo -- where does the other 58 bucks go? Where do you take your judges -- 4 star restaurants?

Just wondering ...


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Have any of you big tuff guys,, ever stood in front of a drop dead gorgeous woman,, and found yerself totally tounge tied?? Even fergettin yer name?? or worse case,, just stand there starin into space droolin all over yerself!!
> 
> Drooly regards:
> 
> Gooser


Shouldn't this post be part of the "leave your bitches in season at home" thread? :mrgreen:


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> $80???? Wow!! So, $20 goes to the live flyers, $2 for ammo -- where does the other 58 bucks go? Where do you take your judges -- 4 star restaurants?
> 
> Just wondering ...


Pheasant, I am just wondering.......if you have not been on FT committee or have ever seen a breakdown of trial expenses

Our recent trial broke even at $75. Out of town judges are very expensive for us. Airfare, hotel rooms meals, other transportation, etc can put the cost of a single judge over $1000. Seven birdboys for three days at $80 a day. Outhouse rental, lunches, ammunition, workers comp insurance, general liability insurance, etc., etc.

This does not include the cost of all the volunteers, including gunners who drive the 350 miles round trip and camp or stay at a hotel at their own. expense. Their only repayment is a couple of free dinners. We are so thankful for their donation in time and expense.

Clubs cannot exist if they break even every time. There is so much equipment that has to purchased over time such as popper guns and blinds. In addition, the club has to have enough in the coffers to front several thousand dollars of expenses.

Russ


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

I originally thought of this thread as a no brainer. Of course live birds are necessary at HTs and FTs! 

However, over dinner and a glass of wine, I thought of the implications of this necessity. One of the continuous justifications for live bird usage throughout this thread is to "prove" the dog’s ability to deal with the birds. 

I have observed that style and marking trumps bird mouthy-ness. In FTs and HTs, judges look the other way when “talented” dogs are sticky and hard mouthed upon delivery. Same goes with creeping – particularly at FTs. 

Hypocrisy sucks – but runs amuck on the RTF..

Just say’in


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

Russ said:


> Pheasant, I am just wondering.......if you have not been on FT committee or have ever seen a breakdown of trial expenses
> 
> Our recent trial broke even at $75. Out of town judges are very expensive for us. Airfare, hotel rooms meals, other transportation, etc can put the cost of a single judge over $1000. Seven birdboys for three days at $80 a day. Outhouse rental, lunches, ammunition, workers comp insurance, general liability insurance, etc., etc.
> 
> ...


Actually, I was kidding.

But I have been in HT committees and there is lots of waste!

It's OK to have judges from out of town. But not for every stake!

Equipment can be shared with other clubs. Clubs can be more proactive at getting help from the membership.

AKC can consider allowing cheaper pidgeons again.

Times are tough, and only the most flexible and creative clubs will survive!

You may not like NAHRA and their stupid attempt with DFTs, but they are the canary in the cave! 

Just say'n


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Russ said:


> Pheasant, I am just wondering.......if you have not been on FT committee or have ever seen a breakdown of trial expenses
> 
> Our recent trial broke even at $75. Out of town judges are very expensive for us. Airfare, hotel rooms meals, other transportation, etc can put the cost of a single judge over $1000. Seven birdboys for three days at $80 a day. Outhouse rental, lunches, ammunition, workers comp insurance, general liability insurance, etc., etc.
> 
> ...


I am in agreement with Russ. There are so many expenses. Breaking even at $75? Wish we could do that!


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

What about the people who train great dogs in areas where shot flyers are illegal. If shot flyers ARE necessary, then how are these people able to do it?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Steve Peacock said:


> What about the people who train great dogs in areas where shot flyers are illegal. If shot flyers ARE necessary, then how are these people able to do it?


Send em my way this winter and we'll go hunting.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Steve Peacock said:


> What about the people who train great dogs in areas where shot flyers are illegal. If shot flyers ARE necessary, then how are these people able to do it?


What area are you talking about? 

Just curious?

Angie


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Canada for one


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Steve Peacock said:


> Canada for one


They have great dogs in Canada???  _Just_ kidding.....

Due to the lack of shot flyers, more then a few Canadian dogs have had trouble competing in the U.S. ;-)

FWIW

Angie


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Due to the lack of shot flyers, more then a few Canadian dogs have had trouble competing in the U.S. ;-)
> 
> FWIW


And would the obverse of that comment ring true?

Anyhow, he meant to say:

"Canada for one.
"Upper North America for another.
"Real far upper North America (but not Alaska) makes three."

Do HRC handlers use flyers in training--or would that get the dog unnecessarily excited? Serious question.

MG


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

crackerd said:


> And would the obverse of that comment ring true?
> 
> Anyhow, he meant to say:
> 
> ...


No... Since U.S. dogs mark a lot of dead birds too....

Hahahaha.... LOL

Yes they use them in training. How else could they possibly expect their dogs to sit through a duck hunt? Just because their owners are HRC handlers doesn't disqualify them from getting a flying duck/pheasnt shot for them. HRC handlers do hunt their dogs. At least that's what I've been told...

I also thought, (could be wrong) that some HRC clubs do shoot a flyer in their tests?

Angie


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Angie B said:


> I also thought, (could be wrong) that some HRC clubs do shoot a flyer in their tests?
> 
> Angie


No you are not wrong Angie. To say that HRC doesn't shoot flyers is wrong.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

crackerd said:


> And would the obverse of that comment ring true?
> 
> 
> Do HRC handlers use flyers in training--or would that get the dog unnecessarily excited? Serious question.
> ...


Unnecessarily excited? 

You mean like a flock of 500 geese landing on a wheat field, 50 mallard ducks diving into your decoys or a huge group of roosters getting up at the end of a CRP field? 

or maybe you are just mocking the lack of using flyers?..Just trying to clarify what you are asking?


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Yea, this HRCer uses shot flyers. Usually like to incorporate them into waterfowl season. That way I don't have to pay for the ducks and geese. Use shackled ducks too.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

DEDEYE said:


> Hmmm... I think Juli is asking because up here, fliers end up costing the clubs more than $20.00 each. Entries cost the club around $125 each although we don't charge that to the handlers. Plus it's a pain to get them here.



Is it not possible to raise them (live ducks) up there? I've seen the places that raise them here and it just ain't that hard....


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

TxFig said:


> Is it not possible to raise them (live ducks) up there? I've seen the places that raise them here and it just ain't that hard....


I'd just answer yes, but that is to short so I will say yes it is very possible.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

TxFig said:


> Is it not possible to raise them (live ducks) up there? I've seen the places that raise them here and it just ain't that hard....


Yes, people can raise them here for sure. But there aren't the facilities to raise that many and have them old enough in time for our first event....


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

crackerd said:


> You might want to get a little more savvy to what was going on before you go sizing something up as "a waste." In that setup, I guarantee you handlers were hoping what their dogs watched go down "didn't look any different than the dead ones they threw" too. And since you were there observing, why might that be?
> 
> MG


Last nite i spoke to an aquantaince that ran this trial. When I mentioned the flyer he said "that was a WASTE of a flyer", "you could barely see the bird", "alot of the people were wondering what they were thinking". This person was running his CFC, CAFC so i would say he is quite savvy.

I won't question your savvy, it is here for all to see, only why you would try to speak of something you did not see...................


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Most every "HRC" trainer I know shoots flyers in training. Some HRC clubs do shoot flyers in tests, but it is not common. Likewise, most of the "HRC" guys also run AKC tests.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

gdluck said:


> Last nite i spoke to an aquantaince that ran this trial. When I mentioned the flyer he said "that was a WASTE of a flyer", "you could barely see the bird", "alot of the people were wondering what they were thinking". This person was running his CFC, CAFC so i would say he is quite savvy.
> 
> I won't question your savvy, it is here for all to see, only why you would try to speak of something you did not see...................


No, I didn't see it. I was too concerned that same day running an open, spending my savvy on what order to have the dog pick up a quad of hen pheasants with the flyer the first bird down.

By the way how many flyers did your friend's CFC/CAFC dog *see* getting that title? Don't just parrot somebody else--as received wisdom (or not)--try to get your own understanding. Go back and read Ted's post...and then return to your byzantine miscomprehension of force fetch.

MG


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

gdluck said:


> Last nite i spoke to an aquantaince that ran this trial. When I mentioned the flyer he said "that was a WASTE of a flyer", "you could barely see the bird", "alot of the people were wondering what they were thinking". This person was running his CFC, CAFC so i would say he is quite savvy.
> 
> I won't question your savvy, it is here for all to see, only why you would try to speak of something you did not see...................



The comment brings to thought what the mark would have looked like from the same distance had it been a dead duck thrown on a low arc......impossible mission? PG


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

out of curiousity....would it be possible to get a more 'realistic' response from a dog using a combination of live and dead birds at the station...set up a station with the crate(s) of live birds, gunners, etc....have one person hold the live bird, get it quacking, then have the other person throw a dead bird along with multiple shots.....

reason is, I would like to train for live birds, but don't have the help necessary (or able (lol) to throw and shoot flyers...besides I'd like to get as much use out of my flyers as possible...While one dog doesn't harm the live flyers, the other one will give them the 'squeeze'..and by the time I get the bird it is only half conscious and usually dies....

Juli


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

sky_view said:


> out of curiousity....would it be possible to get a more 'realistic' response from a dog using a combination of live and dead birds at the station...set up a station with the crate(s) of live birds, gunners, etc....have one person hold the live bird, get it quacking, then have the other person throw a dead bird along with multiple shots.....
> 
> reason is, I would like to train for live birds, but don't have the help necessary (or able (lol) to throw and shoot flyers...besides I'd like to get as much use out of my flyers as possible...While one dog doesn't harm the live flyers, the other one will give them the 'squeeze'..and by the time I get the bird it is only half conscious and usually dies....
> 
> Juli


In training we will sometimes shoot a "Pseudo flyer". You kick a dead duck out a a winger and have 2 gunners unload their guns on it more or less...

Pretty exciting. ;-)

Angie


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## gsc (Oct 4, 2007)

sky_view said:


> out of curiousity....would it be possible to get a more 'realistic' response from a dog using a combination of live and dead birds at the station...set up a station with the crate(s) of live birds, gunners, etc....have one person hold the live bird, get it quacking, then have the other person throw a dead bird along with multiple shots.....
> 
> reason is, I would like to train for live birds, but don't have the help necessary (or able (lol) to throw and shoot flyers...besides I'd like to get as much use out of my flyers as possible...While one dog doesn't harm the live flyers, the other one will give them the 'squeeze'..and by the time I get the bird it is only half conscious and usually dies....
> 
> Juli


This would make it like catch and release?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Angie B said:


> In training we will sometimes shoot a "Pseudo flyer". You kick a dead duck out a a winger and have 2 gunners unload their guns on it more or less...
> 
> Pretty exciting. ;-)
> 
> Angie


 
LOL - I had thought of that too and imagine the dogs really get wound up with multiple shots, even with a dead bird.....just wondered if the addition of a person waving around a flapping live hen wouldn't get things a little interesting...

Juli


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

The absolute best way to "simulate" all the excitement of a shot flyer is to duck hunt a lot with multiple guns.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Just get me to come throw and shoot a shackled live flier.

Broad side of a barn is safe... regards.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

gsc said:


> This would make it like catch and release?


have done this - blindfolding or shackling the ducks works well...just wish that both dogs would bring them back alive...LOL

Juli


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## jollydog (Jul 10, 2006)

Being fairly new to the game ,the use of live & dead birds was explained to me this way-
Would you work your hardest all day long & give it everything you've got for 5 cents? The dogs deserve the birds-Flyers & dead-thats what they live & work for.Mike Lardy in one of his tapes says that if they change the game to plastic he would still train with birds & flyers because the dogs deserve it.

They give us everything they've got.
The least we can do is give them what they were born & bred to retrieve!
I admit when I started, the birds bothered me,but I was
politely told "honey they don't bother your dog!" 
Sylvia McClure


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Angie B said:


> In training we will sometimes shoot a "Pseudo flyer". You kick a dead duck out a a winger and have 2 gunners unload their guns on it more or less...
> 
> Pretty exciting. ;-)
> 
> Angie


a couple of stips of white survey tape flappin in the breeze makes it even more exciting for the dogs...


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## Heelsit (Nov 7, 2007)

I have a love-hate relationship with flyers.
As a trainer - Love to get the dogs jacked up with them in the off season, because they would much rather pick up a nice warm soft fresh bird than what comes out of my freezer, and they DO know the difference.
As a judge - hate the fact that you usually can't control exactly where they will land and the flyer station is usually the part of the test that presents the most problems (no birds, landing way out of the area, birds get loose, etc.)
Then again, I'd rather volunteer as the flyer shooter than do anything else at a hunt test...
Bottom line - the dogs deserve them.


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