# Akc Senior Test Walk Up



## BILL NE NY (Aug 2, 2011)

I Hear The Walk Up Is Mandatory Now And The Bird Is Suppose To Be Around 40 Yds With No Attention Call.this Walk Up Part Of The Double Either Land Or Water Trying Figure How To Train For It By Myself.


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

The bird can land between 35 and 45 yds. 
It CAN be part of a land or water double.

It could also be a single. 
AND, I suppose it could have a single blind or double (land and water) blind following it after you've picked up the mark.

Someone that judges AKC hunt tests please respond to the last comment! The idea just occurred to me as I was replying here.

Debbie


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

New Section 18. Walk Ups. In Senior
and Master hunting tests, a walk up is used
to test a dog’s steadiness. The bird represent
a surprise situation therefore gunning
stations must be well concealed, utilizing
natural cover when possible so that only
the bird may be seen when launched. Birds
shall be presented at distances ranging
from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no
attention getting devices utilized.
As the first bird is thrown in a walk up
situation, the handler may give either a
verbal or whistle command to steady the
dog once the bird is in the air. Judges shall
tell handlers in advance of the start of
judging when it is appropriate to give the
steadying commend or whistle.
There shall be no walk up test situations
in Junior level tests


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Trying Figure How To Train For It By Myself.


If you have a remote winger hide it behind a mound.


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Sorry - I ignored the 'mandatory' word! I've never been in a Senior test without a walk-up, so I didn't click in on the word.

I'm glad they took it out of Junior though. Not many judges were suing it anyway.

Debbie


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

It can be either a part of a series of marks or it can be standalone. If the latter, the marking of the bird need not carry the same weight as if it were a part of a double or triple designed to meet the marking requirements of SH or MH. The standalone walk-up is really a test of a dog's steadness.

As to how it is worked into the overall test, you can do any of the things Debbie mentioned. This per Jerry Mann last w/e.

Eric


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Do you have any remote launchers?


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I get the no duck call but will there be a shot fired? I have yet to see a duck fall without being shot.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Is the walk up mandatory in a Senior set up?

Here's what we are going to set up this weekend:
Walk Fido to the line and call for birds. Interrupted double with a blind between the marks. After picking up all three birds, start walking to the honor bucket. 

While enroute, a live flier from the walk up station as a poison bird. Run blind tight to the backside of the gun station. Pick up mark and then honor. 

All about control before next weekend.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

labman63 said:


> I get the no duck call but will there be a shot fired? I have yet to see a duck fall without being shot.


Shot yes. No duck call.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

labman63 said:


> I get the no duck call but will there be a shot fired? I have yet to see a duck fall without being shot.


OMG!! LMAO!! Thank you! I needed a laugh!! ROTFL!!! I guess maybe atmospheric disturbance or sun flares are a possibility!!

Sue Puff


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

At the scenario ask the judges when the shot will occur: as the bird is tossed (or winger/kicked)or at the apex of the launch.

You want the person at the station to have very specific instructions, and hope the judges have thought it out thoroughly enough, since the 'mechanics' are a new rule.

Debbie


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## BILL NE NY (Aug 2, 2011)

I see you could have it as a single mark and still have two marks or have it as part of the double in senior.I have one remote launcher and have a kit comeing for my old rotary winger make it remote.I wish they just left walk up part of one double make things simple.


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## EJ (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm new to this so hear me out.

Interesting thing for me will be if they have the walk up as part of the double. The 35-40 yard bird is a memory bird with a flyer/go bird as the longer of the two marks. I think I would train this way with my dog on a long go bird and a short memory bird in order to avoid him hunting long on the memory bird.

If he is taking 100 yard memory birds in training he might shoot right past the hidden gun from the walk up


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Isn't the sole purpose of the gun to get the dogs attention or shoot ducks? If the gun is not being used to shoot the bird, isn't the primary purpose of the gun to get the dogs attention? 
Also, what if the marks are setup at under 35 yards or greater than 45 yards? What if a handler's dog fails the test and then the handler whips out his Browning range finder and finds the mark is under or over these distances. The rules require 35-45 yards when the bird is presented. Do you reset the test and give the handler a rerun? 
Do hunt test judges carry rangefinders?


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

Bill,

It most likely would still be part of a double. It saves time that way. 

As a single, the dogs would have to come to the line for a 3rd marking test. That's when it occurred to me that judges could add a walk-up single to any of the blinds.

With Senior having the "blinds outside of the marks rule", it adds to the restrictions for the judges. So sometimes the blinds are separate from the marks.

But anytime handlers have to bring a dog to the line, eats up time. 2 years ago our club had a 19 dog Senior that started (probably) by 9:00 and finally finished at 6:00! 

We had a land double, a water double, then a double blind (L & W). Only 2 of 12 dogs had passed the blinds, so they scrapped the test and set up another land and water bind at 3:30. 

Debbie


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

If judges don't have range finders, you can usually 'walk it out'. But usually one judge has trained a dog enough to be a pretty good gauge of distance.

Debbie


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

BILL NE NY said:


> I see you could have it as a single mark and still have two marks or have it as part of the double in senior.I have one remote launcher and have a kit comeing for my old rotary winger make it remote.I wish they just left walk up part of one double make things simple.


I think 99% of the time you will see the walk up as part of a double and the blind run immediately after the marks (outside the marks).


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Handler Error said:


> Isn't the sole purpose of the gun to get the dogs attention or shoot ducks? If the gun is not being used to shoot the bird, isn't the primary purpose of the gun to get the dogs attention?
> Also, what if the marks are setup at under 35 yards or greater than 45 yards? What if a handler's dog fails the test and then the handler whips out his Browning range finder and finds the mark is under or over these distances. The rules require 35-45 yards when the bird is presented. Do you reset the test and give the handler a rerun?
> Do hunt test judges carry rangefinders?


The gun shot is not an attention getting device as outlined in the rulebook. 

Yes, I have a rangefinder and a pencil sharpener for that special person who wants to check my distances.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Most walkups I've run they have a hard time getting the timing right. They usually throw the bird to late and you have to stop before it 's thrown are you will be to close to the bird. I think they should do away with walkup's they seem to take up a lot of time in the test trying to get them right there are other ways to test a dogs steadiness like honors and birds thrown close to the line ect. With the new rule it sounds like you can't do a walkup blind anymore.


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> The gun shot is not an attention getting device as outlined in the rulebook.
> 
> Yes, I have a rangefinder and a pencil sharpener for that special person who wants to check my distances.


If I spend $70 in entry fees, and another $100 in gas to get to the trial, you better have the distances correct. The rule book is clear according to the rules posted on the first page of this thread. The rules say "Birds _shall_ be presented at distances ranging from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized." Shall doesn't mean should.
You better be giving me a re-run and find a good place to put that sharpened pencil.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Handler Error said:


> If I spend $70 in entry fees, and another $100 in gas to get to the trial, you better have the distances correct. The rule book is clear according to the rules posted on the first page of this thread. The rules say "Birds _shall_ be presented at distances ranging from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized." Shall doesn't mean should.
> You better be giving me a re-run and find a good place to put that sharpened pencil.


If my dog doesn't pick up the bird because it's 5 yards shorter or farther then the rules say I don't think I'll be blaming the judges.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> I think 99% of the time you will see the walk up as part of a double and the blind run immediately after the marks (outside the marks).


I agree, as this will save time. Doing the blinds in a third series will eat up time, if a dog doesnt handle , the judges wont want to wait the whole day to find that out.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

I usually do not enter the fray on these debates however: In my humble opinion a walk-up is not mandantory in the senior events however if a walk -up is used it would be as described in the new regulations effective Jan 1. 2012.

Dave kress


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Handler Error said:


> If I spend $70 in entry fees, and another $100 in gas to get to the trial, you better have the distances correct. The rule book is clear according to the rules posted on the first page of this thread. The rules say "Birds _shall_ be presented at distances ranging from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized." Shall doesn't mean should.
> You better be giving me a re-run and find a good place to put that sharpened pencil.


Handler Error:
Lighten up some, just a joke.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote:

*The gun shot is not an attention getting device as outlined in the rulebook. 
*

Whats a Diversion shot then???

I get so confused......

I axed Baily!!! She sais a shot always gets her attention,,,
I dont think she gives a hoot about the rule book..

I KNOW fer a fact she dont give a Hoot about the rule book..:razz:


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Handler Error---

What are you going to do if you calculate the distance at 46 yards...or maybe 34 yards?

Eric


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

It really doesn't make much difference to me what the testing criteria for a Senior test walkup is supposed look like. If a person trains for the expectations - heeling under control, sitting to wing/shot/fall and retrieving correctly on command, passing that part of a test should not be a problem. 

When preparing Gunny for Senior and Seasoned tests, I designed walkup sessions which emphasized those expectations including real birds. When push comes to shove, a thoroughly trained retriever should be prepared to do more than just pass "the test". Skills should have depth which prepares the dog for dealing with the variable aspects of hunting. All walkups (field and hunting) aren't going to be exactly the same. Why prepare for only one "picture"? 

This drill was the final in a sequence of training which thoroughly prepared Gunny for any walkup situation. He had zero problems with any walkups in his AKC or HRC tests. As an extra bonus a dog is geneally much steadier when prepared in this manner. Control developed "under fire" (which is variable in its presentation) makes for a more responsive dog. 

Doing multiple walkups in one session gives a handler more of a teaching advantage (just like in running multiple cold blinds in one session). 

As a disclaimer, the 71 year old handler is training alone. He is dealing with a shotgun and primer only loads, wearing an e-ecollar transmitter plus a remote for the wingers, picking up ejected shells, reloading, carrying a healing stick and maintaining control over the dog while anticipating each move (including keeping retrieved ducks out of the way). Don't give me any flack for carrying the gun on my shoulder. I know a judge would jump all over any handler doing that in a real test *but* it's not.....and the only witness is a camera. 

*Walkup Session (YouTube video)*


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I do enjoy threads like these everyone has something to say none too many are real negative. but I agree with the above posts about if the blind is over 45yds or under 35yds I am not blaming the judges. My dog better damn well know how to do a blind under 35 and much farther than 45 - If not why would I spend the 60 to 70 on the test drive 3 hours and possibly pay for a stay over night. Just sayin.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Splash_em said:


> Is the walk up mandatory in a Senior set up?
> 
> Here's what we are going to set up this weekend:
> Walk Fido to the line and call for birds. Interrupted double with a blind between the marks. After picking up all three birds, start walking to the honor bucket.
> ...


That is a senior test?


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:


> Handler Error---
> 
> What are you going to do if you calculate the distance at 46 yards...or maybe 34 yards?
> 
> Eric


I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> That is a senior test?


Mock master setup but we are going to run the senior dogs on it also.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'M NOT BEING A DICK, (caps are mine for emphasis) I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


yes, you are.-Paul


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


What if your the last dog running out of 40 dogs and you want a re-run because it's 1 yd off then they will have to change the test and re-run all the dogs because of one small error. Range finders aren't cheap so why should a judge who's doing this for free or the club who might just be getting by have to go buy one just to make sure the bird isn't a few yd's off.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


 
Oh that's easy--I'll just go to my judges bag and pull out my "special" tape measurer. One side is half the yardage it really is--for those whining babies who complain about every test. And the other side is twice the actual yardage for the braggarts who can't measure and have their 4 month old puppies doing 300 yard retrieves.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


Are you gonna range from the spot where the dog was when the walk up bird was called for by the judge? Your memory is that precise? Or from where creep-o-saurus finally stopped his forward progress? Average the two? Or from a given spot, and the test if illegal then if handlers walk past it before the bird goes up, or walk slowly? This is a hoot.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Scott Parker said:


> What if your the last dog running out of 40 dogs and you want a re-run because it's 1 yd off then they will have to change the test and re-run all the dogs because of one small error.


Why give a _____ a forum. No wonder why it's difficult to get judges with the attitute of some handlers. 99% of all judges try to do the right thing . Thanks to all of you.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Pals said:


> Oh that's easy--I'll just go to my judges bag and pull out my "special" tape measurer. One side is half the yardage it really is--for those whining babies who complain about every test. And the other side is twice the actual yardage for the braggarts who can't measure and have their 4 month old puppies doing 300 yard retrieves.


Nancy: You rock!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


I think most of the judges try their best to adhere to the new rules by stepping off the distance or using a rangefinder. However, you will probably get walk ups which are 50 yards and some 30 yards. What you do about that is up to you. I guess you could protest to the HTC and get it scrapped. Then everyone will be traveling to a new area to set up another test. An hour to set up another test, maybe an hour to run the dogs that previously ran the "illegal" test. All this for several yards?

BTW I noticed you use the term "re-run" in several posts. So it isn't going to be a problem with you until AFTER your dog fails?


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Handler Error said:


> If I spend $70 in entry fees, and another $100 in gas to get to the trial, you better have the distances correct. The rule book is clear according to the rules posted on the first page of this thread. The rules say "Birds _shall_ be presented at distances ranging from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized." Shall doesn't mean should.
> You better be giving me a re-run and find a good place to put that sharpened pencil.





Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?



LMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO you will never get a re-run....

and here is why.........

1st and most important reason is......" all judges decision are final " end of story.....

2nd in most insanities no 2 teams will likely ever have the exact same line in a walk up..the distances will vary from team to team....there is no getting away from it........example.....once you are called to the line you and your dog start walking on a set course.......now anytime while on this set course one of the judges will signal for the walk-up to begin...some dogs sit right away some keep moving others creep and so on.......the lione keeps changing........

so my friend train you dog, enjoy working with your dog, have fun and enjoy yourself at these test.......life is way to short to be pulling out your range finder on a SR. level walk-up.....

Cheers. my friend.......


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Wait a minute! What does "*presented*" mean?

I haven't been to a seminar since the new rules but, to me, "presented" means that is where the bird is *thrown from*... not where it falls.

If I am preparing to run a SH test, I would train my dog to be steady walking up to a pheasant flyer thrown and shot from a well brushed-up blind at 40 yds. That bird may fall 80 - 100 yds away. If your dog can't do that, you don't have a Senior Hunter.

May incorporate a second bird, a blind or both.

Why do so many people seem to want to prepare to the minimum requirements???  Train your dog! It's fun!

JMO. If my understanding of "*presented*" is wrong, clue me in.

JS


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

JS said:


> Wait a minute! What does "*presented*" mean?
> 
> I haven't been to a seminar since the new rules but, to me, "presented" means that is where the bird is *thrown from*... not where it falls.
> 
> ...


Beat me to it. He'll never get a re-run. The bird is PRESENTED from 35-45 yards. My 5 year olds can walk that off and be within the 10 yard window.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

paul young said:


> yes, you are.-Paul


But Paul, without one dick at a test, whats the fun of running them. They provide all the entertainment...

/Paul


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Mr Error;

What is your definition of "presented"? Mine is when is the bird first visible. Given that in a walk-up, the dog-handler team is on the move, the distance to where the bird is first visible is going to vary...a lot. All judges can do is use the "35-45 yards" as an approximation or goal when setting up and then use their judgement as to whether the bird, as presented, was fair to the dog. The walk-up is a test of steadiness. It won't test that if the bird is far out in the field. Similarly, it isn't fair to the dog to whack him on the head with a bird too close.

Granted, the new rules don't allow for a walk-up of 100 yards. However, if you are walking and the bird is thrown and lands at 46 yards, if it's fair to the dog, you'd best either pickup the bird or pick-up your dog. You can request a rerun but if the judge thinks the bird is fair, you're not going to get it. Afterall, a significant variable on when the bird is first visible,e.g. presented, is how slow or fast you were walking and is outside the judges' control to a great extent. All the judges can do is comply with the spirit and intent of the regulation.

Eric


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


 
Yes to the first and ?? to the second.
I might suggest a different sport. In over 50 judging assignments, I have yet had all of my flyers or even tossed birds for that matter land exactly in the same spot each and every time.

Dog is supposed to be hunting companion. If I drop a birds at 60 yds or 100 yds, I expect him to find it. Your statements of absolute yardage will not work in the real world of HT's.


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## Kent W (Jun 22, 2009)

JS said:


> Wait a minute! What does "*presented*" mean?
> 
> I haven't been to a seminar since the new rules but, to me, "presented" means that is where the bird is *thrown from*... not where it falls.
> 
> ...



I'm an AKC judge and at my test the walk up bird will be "designed" to fall 35 to 45 yards from your dog. Anything furthur away is another mark. So if I were you, and anyone else concerned with what the AKC (in my opinion) OBVIOUSLY feels a Senior qualified dog should be able to do. I would train for that walk up to be as close as 35 yards AND that it will be a live flyer, AND the memory bird of the double. AND that you will run the blind past (outside of the marks) the AOF of that flyer. THEN honor (as a dog did with you) another dogs work while that flyer falls as close to you as the honor dog as it does for the working dog. Then you both (handlers) get to pucker so tight a finish nail would need a 5lb hammer to get it up your rear end. While your Senior level dogs get to watch that flyer twitch and hop around when the "attention getting device" aka duck call "attempts" to get the working dogs attention for the "go bird". Then (been there done that) you and or your dog wont be amazed at a test I or anyone else sets up. Just impressed.


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## Handler Error (Mar 10, 2009)

To me presented is where the bird is first visible.
As far as the distance on the walkup, I wanted to know how many judges would give a re-run to someone if they set up a test that is against the rules. Looks like no one would even if proven they didn't follow the written rule. Maybe the rule should be changed to should instead of shall.


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## Kent W (Jun 22, 2009)

HE,


With a 10 yard "buffer" I PERSONALLY would like to think that "mechanicly" I could get ANY bird (even a flyer with GOOD gunners) to fall in that range. We as humans/judges (I know I'm painting with a VERY broad brush here but I would certainly like to believe this statement) WANT to set up a fair, challenging, and mechanicly repeatable test. We are by no means perfect. And here I speak for myself: That if you have a question/concern about my (and my co judges) test, bring it up to us in (what I call) the "pre game". We might not have seen or considered something. A "fresh" pair of eyes can be good sometimes. Present it respectfully, and be able to offer facts to back up your observation if needed. After that, after we call the first dog, play the game as presented. And may the best of luck be to all that do.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Are you allowed to say "Mark" to your dog during the walkup and before the bird is thrown/shot?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

IMO the bird does not have to land within the 35 to 45 yard range. But the gun station has to be within that window.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Cowtown said:


> Are you allowed to say "Mark" to your dog during the walkup and before the bird is thrown/shot?


If you want to game the system, why not develop a single command that means "sit still and watch". Mine would respond well to "suppertime". <g>

As a matter of fact, at the advanced seminar last week-end, it was emphasized that the handler should keep walking until the bird is presented or seen. The point also was made that the judge should call for the bird at varying distances so that the handlers didn't start to anticipate the presentation.

So, in a word, "no". The only command allowed is a steadying command when the bird is presented....and then but one command.

Eric


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> So, in a word, "no". The only command allowed is a steadying command when the bird is presented....and then but one command.


You're saying before the bird is presented you can't say, "Heel," or "Mark," or anything else? When can you say the last command? When you're leaving the holding blind? Two yards out? When? 

Once the bird is presented you're only allowed a, "Sit," or a whistle command. If you aren't allowed a, "Heel," on the way to the line, I've seen a lot of dogs who should have been thrown out who were passed. I've got a feeling if you said, "Mark," on the way to the line in a walkup nobody would say anything. I'm pretty sure I've done it.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Handler Error said:


> If I spend $70 in entry fees, and another $100 in gas to get to the trial, you better have the distances correct. The rule book is clear according to the rules posted on the first page of this thread. The rules say "Birds _shall_ be presented at distances ranging from 35 to 45 yards of the dog with no attention getting devices utilized." Shall doesn't mean should.
> You better be giving me a re-run and find a good place to put that sharpened pencil.


 
Please don't run my test. We don't need no stinking rangefinder


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Handler Error said:


> I would ask for a re-run. The rules are crystal clear. It doesn't say 46 yards.
> It doesn't say "should" in the rule book, it says "shall". So what do you do as a judge, marshall or field trial committee if I prove to you that you did not follow the rule book? Do you give me a re-run or do you find another way to drop me because you're pissed. Shame on me if my dog fails a test ran by the rules. Shame on you if you set up an illegal test and really shame on you if you pencil me out because I made you follow the rules.
> As a judge, is one yard over or under acceptable? How about two yards? Five yards? Ten yards? You have to have a number.
> I'm not being a dick, I just want to know what you would do if this happens at a test? Do you follow the book as written?


 
Yes you are and a crybaby as well. If you dog is too stupid to pick a bird at 46 yards and you complain your a dick and your dog is dumb.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> But Paul, without one dick at a test, whats the fun of running them. They provide all the entertainment...
> 
> /Paul


 
I resent that comment.....


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"So, in a word, "no". The only command allowed is a steadying command when the bird is presented....and then but one command."


Incorrect. You can give commands such as heel etc as you walk up. But, after the bird goes up, you can say sit or blow a sit whistle. No different than walking your dog to the line for any other mark.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

If you're on a walk up, it should be easier for anyone if the bird is further away. If you got one in your face at 20 yards and everyone else was out at 45, or 46 yards in your special case, then, you might have a pot to poop in. 

Nobody in their right mind would complain if a walk up bird was further from tempting a break. 

Utter sillyness.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Howard N said:


> You're saying before the bird is presented you can't say, "Heel," or "Mark," or anything else? When can you say the last command? When you're leaving the holding blind? Two yards out? When?
> 
> Once the bird is presented you're only allowed a, "Sit," or a whistle command. If you aren't allowed a, "Heel," on the way to the line, I've seen a lot of dogs who should have been thrown out who were passed. I've got a feeling if you said, "Mark," on the way to the line in a walkup nobody would say anything. I'm pretty sure I've done it.


I wouldn't want to be too loud, and I wouldn't want to be too far out of the holding blind telling my dog to "mark" 

Talking to the working dog – the handler must remain
silent from the time the handler signals for the first bird to be
thrown until the judges release the dog.

Talking to the working dog is a serious handler error, but the term "silent from the time the handler signals for the first bird" is a little tricky.

Interesting enough, I've seen more handlers struggle with walk-ups than i have seen dogs struggle. Maybe removing the duck call will change that, but the dogs that are walking in the heel position seem to put it together pretty well when the handler stops and that gun goes to the shoulder.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

TN_LAB said:


> I wouldn't want to be too loud, and I wouldn't want to be too far out of the holding blind telling my dog to "mark"
> 
> Talking to the working dog – the handler must remain
> silent from the time the handler signals for the first bird to be
> ...


Except the handler is NOT SIGNALING for the bird- its a walkup.. You can tell your dog to mark and Heel, while youre walking up and can not say sit until the bird is in the air. Once that happens you better be quiet until you hear "dog" or #. As far as I know,the rules did not change on that- if I need to re read them I'll do it but as far as I know the changes to the walkup are distance, and the lack of a call .The rest should be the same-.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Billie said:


> Except the handler is NOT SIGNALING for the bird- its a walkup.. You can tell your dog to mark and Heel, while youre walking up and can not say sit until the bird is in the air. Once that happens you better be quiet until you hear "dog" or #. As far as I know,the rules did not change on that- if I need to re read them I'll do it but as far as I know the changes to the walkup are distance, and the lack of a call .The rest should be the same-.


Maybe that's all written in the rulebook somewhere, but I'm not sure where the magical point is that goes from being able to talk to not being able to talk?

Since there isn't and shouldn't ever be a black n white definition of "signaling" for the birds, IMHO it's still way too easy for them to say you gave the go-ahead and signaled that you were ready way back in the holding blind when they asked you all those questions "are ready" "dog to the line, let's go hunting." 

I'm quite comfortable and have done just fine with walk-ups, but my point is that I just wouldn't want to be too far removed from the holding blind and still talking to my dog to tell him to mark or heel (I'd work all that out somewhere within the first step or two).


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Maybe that's all written in the rulebook somewhere, but I'm not sure where the magical point is that goes from being able to talk to not being able to talk


I think the rule book is pretty clear on this. It's when the bird is, "presented."


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Except the handler is NOT SIGNALING for the bird- its a walkup.. You can tell your dog to mark and Heel, while youre walking up and can not say sit until the bird is in the air. Once that happens you better be quiet until you hear "dog" or #. As far as I know,the rules did not change on that- if I need to re read them I'll do it but as far as I know the changes to the walkup are distance, and the lack of a call .The rest should be the same-.


I agree, I think the wording is to standardize the walk-ups because people were anticipating when the bird would come out and sitting the dog for control. The judges would say we expect you to keep walking until the bird is in the air but some still sat them early. I don't know how they were judged by stopping their dogs early and if they were dropped but I saw it enough. The judges signal for the bird in the walk up and not the handler on the walk-up. On regular marks the handler signals he is ready and then no further talking, but on a walk up that wording does not occur until the bird is in the air. I think in the rules for the MHX, which never came to be, the dogs were not allowed to have more than one heel but I have said heel and mark quietly coming out of the holding blind and if the walk up was long, along the way. These are hunting tests and they were never meant to be as precise as they are being interpreted, and long time ago, there were judges that liked to see a good hunt too.


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## Flying Dutchman (May 1, 2009)

Let me start by saying I run and judge HRC, not AKC, but I hope to be running in AKC events soon. I hope this doesn't disqualify my comment, especially since this is essentially a question, not a comment. In any event, here goes.

I am confused as to how it is difficult to control where a walk-up bird falls in relation to the dog? Now, I agree wholeheartedly with the folks who have already said that a 46 yd. walk-up bird really shouldn't be grounds for a re-run, so long as the test is still "fair." At the same time, if we are throwing a dead bird from a winger (The way I understand the rules, you MAY use the flyer there, but don't have to, correct?), we can be consistent within 10' with the spot the bird falls, right? So, if we have a 5 yd "window" along the walk-up path in which we throw the bird via electronic releases, we are still looking at a maximum variation of 7 yd in the distance to that bird. This is more than enough to accommodate all but the most radical variations due to wind, or other weather factors. My point or question? Well, why is it so difficult to ensure that the bird does, in fact, fall within the range specified in the rule book?

I realize I am describing the HRC method of setting up a walk-up and may be missing something very significantly different about AKC walk-ups, but that's the only experience I have. Someone please help me understand the difference.

I have another question about the walk-up being a part of a double marked retrieve, but I'll save that for later in this conversation!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Well, why is it so difficult to ensure that the bird does, in fact, fall within the range specified in the rule book?


I don't believe the rule book gives the range where the bird must fall. It gives a range of where the bird is, "presented." I think as long as the gun station is within the window of 35 to 45 yards that is what the rules are talking about. ie. If the gun station is at 43 yards from where the judges establish they are going to call for the birds, and they throw a bird across a slough to land at 52 yards they are within the rules. If a flyer that lands at 99 yards, it's still legal.

I don't think I'm wrong.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Alright everyone. Just because someone uses inappropriate language for the RTF community, doesn't mean that others need to continue using that term.

It would be great if our members would remember that we have some minors that read our forum. Sure they may hear that language at school, but do we, as adults, really need to set that as an example of how an adult should act?


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

It was stated several times this past weekend at the Advanced Judges Seminar that a walk up is a test of control over the dog being tested. I asked multiple times about what the new rules require for a Senior walk up as I will only judge Junior and Senior dogs. If a judge wants too he or she can set up a walkup and run that and then move over to another line and run a double mark setup to test marking and run a blind right back through the area of the fall of the walkup if it is outside the two marks........ This was the setup on the demos that were set up by Jerry Mann. The walkup was a live flyer coming out from left to right. Jerry gave in his instructions not to signal for the bird at any specific place .....give a range ....from this ribbon to that ribbon ...the bird will be signaled for. It was my understanding that you could talk to your dog UNTIL the whistle Sit or Verbal SIT was given and no more talking until the judge releases your dog for the retrieve. The gun should be shouldered at the bird while in the air. After judging 8 Senior tests in 2011 I was skeptical about how this would work. One break out of 3 dogs run as demo dogs. A LOT better that I expected from what I saw last year. .What this stimulates you heading to your blind and a bird comes in and you shoot it....also stressed for handlers to just walk with your dog until the bird comes out ...not shuffle along .


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## Sophie Gundog (Apr 28, 2010)

Well in my case I think I will just show up, run the test , say thank you and train beyond the standards being tested, if the bird is at twenty feet or fifty feet I'm good with it , in hunting it happens at any distance so either we train to do it correct or re vist what we need to do .


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Sophie Gundog said:


> Well in my case I think I will just show up, run the test , say thank you and train beyond the standards being tested, if the bird is at twenty feet or fifty feet I'm good with it , in hunting it happens at any distance so either we train to do it correct or re vist what we need to do .


 
RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG and have FUN doing it......


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> But Paul, without one dick at a test, whats the fun of running them. They provide all the entertainment...
> 
> /Paul


Come on /Paul....we know you're really there for the Vajay-jays!

WRL


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## BILL NE NY (Aug 2, 2011)

This walk up could be on water or like you say a single and then say two long marks.Then again the second mark could be the live shot flyer with a diversion bird on the way back.It is possible to have four birds plus a blind on land or water.I guess train for walk up on land or water as a double or single plus diversion bird and now run a blind through a old fall more scenarios to train for guess I'll have to buy another launcher will be sleeping in the garage.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Bill the way this is setup possibly I expect MOST walkups will be at the land section of the test. I will be training more on blinds through old falls with my own dog and a little quicker SIT . I kind of like to set my tests up as a Final thing.WOULD I LIKE TO RUN THIS TEST??


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> Incorrect. You can give commands such as heel etc as you walk up. But, after the bird goes up, you can say sit or blow a sit whistle. No different than walking your dog to the line for any other mark.


I guess I mis-understood the question. I was responding on the assumption that the handler had stopped the dog, said "Mark" and then the bird was flighted.

Jerry Mann made something of an issue of SH and especially MH dogs going to the line in a tight heel controlled only by repetitive commands. He didn't say that this should neccessarily fail a dog but rather that we should be docking points in Trainability for a constant barrage of commands.

I will say that in the demos, the MH dogs didn't need reminding of where they belonged.

Eric


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Eric Johnson said:


> I guess I mis-understood the question. I was responding on the assumption that the handler had stopped the dog, said "Mark" and then the bird was flighted.
> 
> Jerry Mann made something of an issue of SH and especially MH dogs going to the line in a tight heel controlled only by repetitive commands. He didn't say that this should neccessarily fail a dog but rather that we should be docking points in Trainability for a constant barrage of commands.
> 
> ...


All true. However, on any given weekend dogs will be dogs and might need that constant reminding. As a judge, I'm not going to nick them every time they say heel. As a handler, you gotta do what you gotta do to stay in the game and let the judges judge.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Howard N said:


> I think the rule book is pretty clear on this. It's when the bird is, "presented."


I'm going to look again, but I didn't find that language in there that says it's OK to talk to the working dog during a walk-up. 

We are probably beating this dead horse too much and knit-picking, but I swear I don't find anything that says you can talk to your dog until the bird is presented. In fact, the book specifically says the handler must remain silent from the time he signals for the first bird until he is released by the judges. Once again, it's that magical moment of defining when is the handler signaling for the first bird? The handler doesn't signal for the first bird on a walk up, the judge does (and the handler often times ain't looking at the judge). 

Maybe it's that other passage in the rule book that says that a dog should walk tractably at heel that leads me to believe that you ought not be talking too much to your dog as you leave the holding blind????



Sophie Gundog said:


> Well in my case I think I will just show up, run the test , say thank you and train beyond the standards being tested, if the bird is at twenty feet or fifty feet I'm good with it , in hunting it happens at any distance so either we train to do it correct or re vist what we need to do .


For sure.

You won't get a ribbon if you don't pick up all the birds, and odds are pretty good that the judges won't be asking you how, when, or where you want the birds. 

The root of my advice is that I would not want to be giving any indication to the judges that my dog was not being very well behaved and obedient...especially as we get farther away from the holding blind. 

I think we've all seen folks that repeated all sorts of commands, and I gotta believe that doesn't do anything but put the judges on alert that your dog is not a star pupil. You can _almost_ judge some dog/handler teams by doing nothing but observing the handler. You can almost tell when a dog/handler is meeting the standard by the repeated commands, quick whistles, nagging, grunts, sighs, body language, bug eyes, quick movements, facial expressions, etc. 




Thomas D said:


> All true. However, on any given weekend dogs will be dogs and might need that constant reminding. As a judge, I'm not going to nick them every time they say heel. As a handler, you gotta do what you gotta do to stay in the game and let the judges judge.


I would concur. Walk-ups are "interesting" situations that leave the door open to lots of leeway. Heaven knows we've all seen dogs and handlers that were all over the place on a walk-up. And since this thread is about a SENIOR walk-up, I'd hope the judges exercise good judgement (can't say I've ever seen a Sr dog/handler dropped because of talking or snapping a finger on a walk-up...and I'd hate to see a SENIOR dog get dropped because of that). You and your dog get on up there, don't break & pick up both birds = good enough


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

WRL said:


> Come on /Paul....we know you're really there for the Vajay-jays!
> 
> WRL


Thats true. I've always preferred the betty's over the Richard's....

/Paul


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

TN_LAB said:


> I'm going to look again, but I didn't find that language in there that says it's OK to talk to the working dog during a walk-up.
> 
> We are probably beating this dead horse too much and knit-picking, but I swear I don't find anything that says you can talk to your dog until the bird is presented. In fact, the book specifically says the handler must remain silent from the time he signals for the first bird until he is released by the judges. Once again, it's that magical moment of defining when is the handler signaling for the first bird? The handler doesn't signal for the first bird on a walk up, the judge does (and the handler often times ain't looking at the judge).
> 
> ...


 * NOTE ON a walk up the handler is not signaling for the bird ............the JUDGE is. *


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## DOG MAGNET (Feb 22, 2011)

On a walk-up, the judge usually defines a location (by ribbon or bush) where "birds will start flying" when you cross that point. I believe that when the handler crosses that point, he is calling for the birds/signalling for the birds.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

DOG MAGNET said:


> On a walk-up, the judge usually defines a location (by ribbon or bush) where "birds will start flying" when you cross that point. I believe that when the handler crosses that point, he is calling for the birds/signalling for the birds.


 Go back and read my earlier post.......Jerry Mann wants a area like from this flag to that flag . Anywhere in between those flags and NOT at the same place everytime.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

On a walk up, I've always thought if the quacking hasn't started then, "Heel," or maybe, "Come." If the quacking started or the bird is in the air, "Sit."

Nowadays, no quack.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

DOG MAGNET said:


> On a walk-up, the judge usually defines a location (by ribbon or bush) where "birds will start flying" when you cross that point. I believe that when the handler crosses that point, he is calling for the birds/signalling for the birds.


One can only hope for such clarity. I'm saying that regardless of whether the judges do that or not, as a handler, you ought to make it a practice to be doing that. 

In a lot of walk ups, you leave the holding blind and will walk past what would be considered the "line" (maybe it's marked, or maybe its late in the day and there is a big mud hole). IMHO, you'd be wise to get your dog under control and to be silent when you get up there.



Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> * NOTE ON a walk up the handler is not signaling for the bird ............the JUDGE is. *


I know that (I even stated that).

Riddle me this: Why does the rule book go so far as to address that it's OK for a handler to give a SIT command on the walk up? It's almost as if the rule book is saying that the only thing you are allowed to say to the dog is SIT. Wouldn't you think they put that exception in there because they expect you to be silent prior to that point? I do.

Hypothetical: Let's say every handler thus far has taken about 20 steps before the bird is in the air. IMHO, you don't want to be telling your dog to HEEL, Fido, HEEL at step 19. Odds are that darn birdboy is going to be moving around on step 19 and I don't think you want to be telling your dog to HEEL even though everybody out there can tell that bird is about to come flying out from behind that bush. But some are saying (or at least I think they are saying) that it's OK to talk to the dog on step 19 because the bird hasn't been presented. 

I ain't saying it's going to get you dropped, but I am saying that you better get your dog to walk tractably at heel within the first 3-4 steps and you ought to be pretty darn quiet those last 5-10 steps.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

The rule book is silent as to talking to the dog on the walk up. Doesn't say you can't, so IMO you can. I think it should be treated as any other walk to the line. Since you are not signaling for the birds, the bird in the air is the trigger. I have judged a bunch and ran a bunch and have never told or have been told that you couldn't talk to your dog during a walk up.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I think the AKC needs to double the combined point requirement for judging.

Pete


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Pete said:


> I think the AKC needs to double the combined point requirement for judging.
> 
> Pete


What would that accomplish?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Pete said:


> I think the AKC needs to double the combined point requirement for judging.
> 
> Pete


 One should not be ri dic u lous!! Or maybe that should should be 'shall'??


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Can't believe some of the ridiculous viewpoints that have been expressed on this thread. It's not nearly as difficult to understand as some are making it. You and your dog get surprised by a bird flushing. You and your dog stop, you shoot at the bird and then your dog retrieves it to you. Period. You are allowed to talk to your dog all the way from the last holding blind up until you see the bird in the air. Now, talking doesn't mean hacking the dog to stay at obedience heel up to the line, it just means that if the dog gets a little loose and you have to give a reminder to stick with you, you can. Rules don't say you can't therefore, you can.

Does anyone wonder how or why the AKC gave the yardage window they gave? I think it has far less to do with the length of the retrieve. I think that the window is to give some latitude to where the dog is when the bird is presented. Sounds like per Mr. Mann, you're supposed to keep walking until the bird is presented i.e. in the air and visible. Sometimes the bird throwers might be a little slow and may not come out at exactly the same time for each dog. The window gives some wiggle room in that situation. So maybe the AKC Gucci's figured that there could be about a 5-10 yd difference in fall area added to the 5-10 yd difference from one dog to another at the line and used that as a basis for deciding on the new limitations?

On a side note, why don't one of those AKC Gucci's get with the program and post here from time to time to clear up these types of 9 page discussions. This thread should've never been longer than about a page in my opinion.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> [stonybrookCan't believe some of the ridiculous viewpoints that have been expressed on this thread. It's not nearly as difficult to understand as some are making it. /QUOTE]
> 
> I concur ,, which is why I think double or triple points may be neccessary


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

What are the rules in an HRC walkup in regards to talking to the dog such as heel, mark, sit?


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Can my dog wear a choke collar in the walk up? 

JS


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

JS said:


> Can my dog wear a choke collar in the walk up?
> 
> JS


Yep. This is recommended to all those who do not want an orange ribbon.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Cowtown said:


> What are the rules in an HRC walkup in regards to talking to the dog such as heel, mark, sit?


In HRC you can talk to your dog even when the birds are going off.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Riddle me this: Why does the rule book go so far as to address that it's OK for a handler to give a SIT command on the walk up? It's almost as if the rule book is saying that the only thing you are allowed to say to the dog is SIT. Wouldn't you think they put that exception in there because they expect you to be silent prior to that point? I do.


I'm guessing, but I think they said it was OK to say, "Sit," or blow the whistle on a walk up because if you say, "Sit," on a normal mark you have told the judges your dog is about to break. There can be no controlled break in master so you are out for saying, "Sit," when the birds are going off. 

I think the AKC wanted to purposely allow a sit command while the birds were going off on walk ups, so judges wouldn't drop dogs for their handlers telling them to sit. Up until then, the dogs were moving, so they specifically allowed the command when birds were going down.


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## vScottv (Apr 22, 2010)

Heres a question, Can electronic releases be used during the test? I ask this because wouldnt that help the judge be able to vary the release of the bird along the walkup path? It seems it would be more difficult for handlers to anticipate the release as well. For example as I'm walking to the line i reach the first ribbon (release will be somewhere between 2 ribbons) than i see out of the corner of my eye, the judge franticly waving the towel at the kid in the bushes to release the bird and I start to anticipate by raising the gun and or slowing my pace (queing the dog). Having the judges finger on the release button would truly make it a surprise presentation. I think it would also make it easier for the judges to compensate for a fast or slow moving team.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

You can quadruple the points, and you will still get these threads. 500 points between two judges won't stop handlers trying to game the system....;-)


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## Flying Dutchman (May 1, 2009)

Cowtown said:


> What are the rules in an HRC walkup in regards to talking to the dog such as heel, mark, sit?


During the walk-up, you may speak to your dog, much the same way you would if you were sneaking up on resting birds. There is no markdown for quietly reminding your dog to heel. Now, it is expected that you not be yelling "HEEL!" over and over or doing anything else that might spook the birds you are supposedly sneaking up on, but there are no rules about talking to the dogs on the walkup. Of course, that brings up the point below...



Scott Parker said:


> In HRC you can talk to your dog even when the birds are going off.


True. Even in a pure marking scenario, even at Finished, you are permitted to quietly remind your dog to sit. Again, if you were hunting ducks, you could get away with a quiet "sit" while birds were working without flaring them. You shouldn't be dropped for saying sit during an HRC test. Yelling it or using it to stop a dog that has decided it's time to go, are different, but talking is permitted.

Oh, one other point about the walkup in HRC: Like Otey mentioned, it is expected that handlers will walk steadily and normally toward the bird station or winger on the walkup and not perform the doggie two-step, stopping, reheeling, etc. over and over. Again, this is one of those things that's not an instant failure, but can be a markdown under control if Fido is demonstrating a refusal to walk quietly at heel.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> You can quadruple the points, and you will still get these threads. 500 points between two judges won't stop handlers trying to game the system


I was thinking that some of the creative interpretations were coming from inexperienced judges or those aspiring to be.
Don't know if anyone noticed but those judges with alot of experience seem to have common sense when approaching rules.
I find that inexperience causes the interpretations to go overboard one way or the other. Balance generally comes with experience.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Eric Johnson said:


> If you want to game the system, why not develop a single command that means "sit still and watch". . . .
> 
> Eric


um.....










.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Scott Parker said:


> In HRC you can talk to your dog even when the birds are going off.


Thank you Scott!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Like Ken said...
There IS a command that tells the dog to sit and watch/mark,, and that is sit...

Having had two creepy unsteady dogs,, the one thing I have learned from the people I train with now,, is the MORE TALKING you do with this type of dog,, the worse the problem gets..

I always thought it made sense to be able to talk to your dog,,,, but really ,,IN SOME INSTANCES,, the talking can make the dog break..

strickly enforce standards,, keep your mouth shut.
Doesnt do any good to yell,.... The dog is 2 feet away from you.
Yelling or wisper can enhance excitement.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

this is not intended to be sarcastic, but when your dog heels, isn't the expectation that if you stop walking the dog will sit?
Therefore, when the bird goes up and you stop walking, why is it necessary to say anything to the dog anyway?


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

hotel4dogs said:


> this is not intended to be sarcastic, but when your dog heels, isn't the expectation that if you stop walking the dog will sit?
> Therefore, when the bird goes up and you stop walking, why is it necessary to say anything to the dog anyway?


That's the idea but when that big juicy flyer takes off, that's where the testing begins.

It may not be necessary but are you willing to chance it by not saying anything to remind Fido to stay put?


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> this is not intended to be sarcastic, but when your dog heels, isn't the expectation that if you stop walking the dog will sit?
> Therefore, when the bird goes up and you stop walking, why is it necessary to say anything to the dog anyway?


This is how mine are trained, when at heel, and I stop walking their butts hit the ground. Also I think that if you have a dog that is trained in upland that is steady to the flush this will increase your odds of a sit on a walk up bird.
Does that make sense or am I just crazy in my thinking?


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> this is not intended to be sarcastic, but when your dog heels, isn't the expectation that if you stop walking the dog will sit?
> Therefore, when the bird goes up and you stop walking, why is it necessary to say anything to the dog anyway?


You don't have to say SIT, and some folks don't. 

As to the expectation of the dog: It all depends on how the dog was trained (a fair amount of them do seem to sit when the handler stops, but why "expect" the dog to figure it out? "command" it).


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

metalone67 said:


> Does that make sense or am I just crazy in my thinking?


They might sit, they might not. You take a chance. The rule books allow us to command the dog, why not take what's given and use it?

No different than a Junior may be steady if you run them off lead. Do you want to take the chance that they'll be steady or do you want to take what the rules allow (gently restraining the dog) and better your odds of success?


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## east tx hoghunt (Jul 20, 2011)

badbullgator said:


> Yes you are and a crybaby as well. If you dog is too stupid to pick a bird at 46 yards and you complain your a dick and your dog is dumb.


My sides hurt!!!!!!


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

east tx hoghunt said:


> My sides hurt!!!!!!


Mine too! That's funny stuff!


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> this is not intended to be sarcastic, but when your dog heels, isn't the expectation that if you stop walking the dog will sit?
> Therefore, when the bird goes up and you stop walking, why is it necessary to say anything to the dog anyway?


Because even the best trained retriever can go to a "test" and become forgetful in their excitement. Your choice--hope your training of the "I've stopped and you need to sit" works or say "sit" or blow your sit whistle and make sure fido knows you've stopped and he better too. I know that some people when doing a walk up walk REALLY slow, almost stilted--very confusing for the dog, do I go? do I sit? Are you telling me to mark as we walk(which is vastly different then the nice watch me attention while heeling in obedience) and POW here comes a birdy!!!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Pals said:


> Because even the best trained retriever can go to a "test" and become forgetful in their excitement. Your choice--hope your training of the "I've stopped and you need to sit" works or say "sit" or blow your sit whistle and make sure fido knows you've stopped and he better too. I know that some people when doing a walk up walk REALLY slow, almost stilted--very confusing for the dog, do I go? do I sit? Are you telling me to mark as we walk(which is vastly different then the nice watch me attention while heeling in obedience) and POW here comes a birdy!!!


 
That's the Ninja walk up.....best done in black with a very black and fidgety dog.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> That's the Ninja walk up.....best done in black with a very black and fidgety dog.


 
And the handler's name is Richard???


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Don't go ninja'n nobody that don't need ninja'n.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Well for me, a total newbie, just remembering to stop walking and do something or other with a gun and maybe have a whistle somewhere near my mouth is going to probably be all I can handle, let alone telling my dog to sit as well  ! ! I'm more likely to yell "there it goes! there it goes!" rather than "sit" !


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pals said:


> Because even the best trained retriever can go to a "test" and become forgetful in their excitement. Your choice--hope your training of the "I've stopped and you need to sit" works or say "sit" or blow your sit whistle and make sure fido knows you've stopped and he better too. I know that some people when doing a walk up walk REALLY slow, almost stilted--very confusing for the dog, do I go? do I sit? Are you telling me to mark as we walk(which is vastly different then the nice watch me attention while heeling in obedience) and POW here comes a birdy!!!


Its kind of like how in training the dog goes out and gets the bird and brings it right back. But that same dog might go out, get the bird and roll on it, pee on it or maybe drop it continuously on the way back. 

Best to use the tools you have at your disposal if you can.

WRL


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

WRL said:


> Its kind of like how in training the dog goes out and gets the bird and brings it right back. But that same dog might go out, get the bird and roll on it, pee on it or maybe drop it continuously on the way back.
> 
> Best to use the tools you have at your disposal if you can.
> 
> WRL


Yes, or a dog that behaves perfectly in a holding blind in training no matter whats going on, and you get to a test and that dog suddenly turns into lunatic...... Just an example of course...


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## ZoltanS (Jul 8, 2010)

Could someone please provide a link to the latest Hunting Retriever rule book with this addendum (apparently Section 18) regarding the "new" walk-up. I can not find anything on the AKC site. Thanks so much.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

ZoltanS said:


> Could someone please provide a link to the latest Hunting Retriever rule book with this addendum (apparently Section 18) regarding the "new" walk-up. I can not find anything on the AKC site. Thanks so much.


I'm not sure they've printed any new booklets, but the changes can be found on the AKC website:

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/events/hunting_tests/retrievers/Changes_Regulations_Nov2011.pdf

2010 rule book:

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

..........


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## ZoltanS (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks. The link wasn't working, and since I'm not able to post URLs yet, here's where I found the doc you were referring to: akc.org/pdfs/events/hunting_tests/retrievers/Changes_Regulations_Nov2011.pdf


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Can't the judge just draw a _line in the sand_ indicating that from that, point forward be ready for the bird to be presented...........If he in fact does this, has he not "signaled" your readyness, with all the accompaning restriction on talking to your dog, for you 

Since there is to be no attention getter's, shouldn't the shot be at the top of the arc?

This would solve a lot of interpretation issues....

john


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