# Casting into the wind



## Terry A (Jul 1, 2003)

I am looking for drills or something to help teach a dog to cast into the wind. My BLF does everything else but casting into the wind is my Achilles heel.

Thanks


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Terry A said:


> I am looking for drills or something to help teach a dog to cast into the wind. My BLF does everything else but casting into the wind is my Achilles heel.
> 
> Thanks


The first question is ," why is it a problem"? or why do some dogs (most) not take good casts into the wind. Once you know the answer you can take it from there. Jim


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

First you need a windy day. Whenever we train and it happens to be windy, we automatically say its time to set up a cross wind blind. Then set up a blind 90 degrees to the wind with an obvious feature, tree, big rock or large bush on the downwind side of the line. That will serve as a reference for you and the dog to stay upwind of. Run the blind and keep him or her on the line or upwind side of the line. You will have to read your dog's effort in making decisions on when and how much to correct for cast refusals, scalloping or fading with the wind.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> The first question is ," why is it a problem"? or why do some dogs (most) not take good casts into the wind. Once you know the answer you can take it from there. Jim


Because it is blowing?;-)


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

On windy days I will often select an area to run a set of gradient, cold blinds starting with basic setups like the first two and move up to greater distances later. 




























I have an old 375 yard pattern blind (not used very much) that I will come back to a couple of times when cross winds out the east or west are in the 30-40 mph range.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Yes, an' how many times must a DOG turn his head
An' pretend that he just doesn't see?

The answer, my friend, it is blowin' in the wind
An' the answer is blowin' in the wind

How many times must a DOG look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, an' how many ears must one DOG have pinched
Before he can hear him cry?
Yes, an' how many refusals will it take until he knows
That they have been dropped from the trial

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

huntinman said:


> Because it is blowing?;-)


Haaa...Bill I don't have to tell you why or the reason....I think a lot of people look for answers instead of the why's.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> Yes, an' how many times must a DOG turn his head
> An' pretend that he just doesn't see?
> 
> The answer, my friend, it is blowin' in the wind
> ...


Now that is what I'm talking about...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Terry A said:


> I am looking for drills or something to help teach a dog to cast into the wind. My BLF does everything else but casting into the wind is my Achilles heel.
> 
> Thanks


Terry,
I believe you set yourself up for that one. 
We all learn....Part of life of dog training...So take it as good criticism from some of the posters.
Maybe go back to force to pile in the wind and that might make the dog understand what you want. Just saying.
Happy training to you.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

On high wind days I will run some long known (not pattern) blinds. Keep your standards high when running crosswind blinds. Recently at a hunt test I had very little trouble with a crosswind blind. I lined him up very slightly upwind and I thought he was going to line the blind but had two whistles at the very end.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote:
Factors – Elements that can throw a retriever off course on a mark or blind. They include: wind, 
water, terrain, cover, and diversions. Most advanced training concentrates on teaching the 
dog to deal with these factors. The more advanced the dog, the more they are able to 
overcome various factors to hold the line. 




So,, From all the excellent advice you have been given,, you can see that WIND is nothing more than 1 of the factors you should try and incorporate in your training plans.. Take advantage of windy days, and teach the dog how to deal with THAT particular factor, just like you would teach the dog how to deal with the other 4.

Run LOTS of cold blinds!!! Have maybe just of couple of factors in them as you start a yound dog. then as you progress, add more, eventually reaching a point where you throw the kitchen sink at them...

RUN LOTS OF COLD BLINDS I have been told you arnt ready till you have run 1000 Qual level blinds..
Think about how long that will take you if you run 3 a day, every day...

I gota LONG LONG way to go..

It takes time,, and a Plan when you train... and a VERY high standard..

Gooser


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Quote:
> Factors – Elements that can throw a retriever off course on a mark or blind. They include: wind,
> water, terrain, cover, and diversions. Most advanced training concentrates on teaching the
> dog to deal with these factors. The more advanced the dog, the more they are able to
> ...


And with that being said Micheal,what in fact are you building????? That is the answer!!!! Jim


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Im not much of a fan of "Riddle" answers..

What the end result of what we are trying to build is a compliant dog, that will HANDLE..

There are specific steps that prepare that dog to get to that end.

FF, FTP, Pattern blinds, cold blinds, ect ect..Skip any of that,, and you will prolly have a battle on your hands, obtaining a dog that "handles"..

There!!! Did I answer the riddle in your question??? 

Are you a NUN???


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

A LOT of the responsibility in dealing with the wind on blinds,, goes directly to the handler.. 

If you can,, dont put the dog in a position where right off the bat,, you are having to handle INTO the wind..

Try and keep dog positioned on the blind,, so that only the last couple of casts are casually into the wind...

So,, Good initial lines, a dog that runs straight, and goes where sent,, really comes into play...

They learn this through solid Basics,, then,, LOTS OF COLD BLINDS with very high standards..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

There are tons of threads on here,, that when training,,, use the Phrase,, "Forget the blind,, get the cast" 

Gooser


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

MooseGooser said:


> Im not much of a fan of "Riddle" answers..


Thanks Gooser ! My head was starting to hurt !



MooseGooser said:


> There!!! Did I answer the riddle in your question???
> Are you a NUN???


Now that was funny right there ! Flashes of my childhood !


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

waycool said:


> Thanks Gooser ! My head was starting to hurt !
> 
> 
> 
> Now that was funny right there ! Flashes of my childhood !


Just trying to get people to think on a rainy day.........its something dad would make me do when I ran into problems.We actually retain about 80% of what we think out and experience in stead of having someone tell us or reading in a book.Im sure someone can figure out the word Im speaking of. Jim


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

jd6400 said:


> And with that being said* Micheal*,what in fact are you building????? That is the answer!!!! Jim



And Ya called me Micheal!! Like Mrs Obama!!! Its the europeanistical way to spell it!!

Some people would agree with you, that I is a bit Girly.... But,,, well,,, just sayin.!


Its MICHAEL!!!!!!!


This is why I go by Gooser!!! well,, theys other reasons for that too,, but we dont wanna go into that,, now do we..


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> *Just trying to get people to think on a rainy day.........its something dad would make me do when I ran into problems*.We actually retain about 80% of what we think out and experience in stead of having someone tell us or reading in a book.Im sure someone can figure out the word Im speaking of. Jim


just one of the many reasons my brother holds/held your Dad in such high esteem, I think they seemed to talk the same language,since your Dad was a coach and a natural TEACHER not just a pro who set up a test,put the dogs on the ground and said "Back"


and Gooser I politely disagree on running lots of cold blinds, but more from a philosophical point of view,which could be debated for days


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> just one of the many reasons my brother holds/held your Dad in such high esteem, I think they seemed to talk the same language,since your Dad was a coach and a natural TEACHER not just a pro who set up a test,put the dogs on the ground and said "Back"
> 
> 
> and Gooser I politely disagree on running lots of cold blinds, but more from a philosophical point of view,which could be debated for days


Thanks Bon, I asked the same question the op did , to dad.I laid in bed at nights for several weeks thinking it out (it was his plan).Each day I would say "what is it?" One day I said "I give up" that really got him mad....as quitting was not in his vocabulary,whether on a dog or anything.He told me once again to think about it and then it hit me.I actually beat him out to the kennel that morning and told him my answer.We both smiled and I walked away a smarter man.

Oh,and sorry bout the spelling Gooser, haaa Jim


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

jd6400 said:


> Thanks Bon, I asked the same question the op did , to dad.I laid in bed at nights for several weeks thinking it out (it was his plan).Each day I would say "what is it?" One day I said "I give up" that really got him mad....as quitting was not in his vocabulary,whether on a dog or anything.He told me once again to think about it and then it hit me.I actually beat him out to the kennel that morning and told him my answer.We both smiled and I walked away a smarter man.
> 
> Oh,and sorry bout the spelling Gooser, haaa Jim



Really!! No Problemo!!!

But in post 13 I tried to answer your question,,,,,,, Did I???

Drivin me crazy now!!!!

crazier i mean..


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Really!! No Problemo!!!
> 
> But in post 13 I tried to answer your question,,,,,,, Did I???
> 
> ...


Im looking for one word,and iffin you aint got that you got nuthin.Got ya thinkin now eh? Hell it took me several days ......think grasshopper,think! Jim


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

perseverance..........?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> perseverance..........?


Nope.....but I sure enjoy an animal that has it.......


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Terry A said:


> I am looking for drills or something to help teach a dog to cast into the wind. My BLF does everything else but casting into the wind is my Achilles heel.
> 
> Thanks


All of Kwick Lab's suggestions are excellent, as they allow repeated and sequential exposure to the concept of fighting the factor of a crossing wind. I also use those drills for that purpose. In addition, I also run definitive casting drills set up so that the dog casts into the wind, and extend the distance of that cast as conditions allow. All of this begins the conditioning process, but are not cures in and of themselves. You must still run plenty of cross wind blinds to keep this skill alive.

For the sake of clarity, quite a few terms have been tossed around in this discussion without clear meanings. Here are my terms & definitions so you know what I'm talking about when I use them.

Diversion: Any influence that causes a dog to divert his route. The dictionary defines "divert" as to 'turn from a course or purpose'.
Factor (popular application): A specific influence that causes a dog to divert en route to a fall.

The three influences of diversion are Flare, Suction, and Drift. A factor that causes a dog to run around it, like a log or bush, invokes flare, for example. An old fall near the route that draws the dog toward it, and therefore off his true route, has created suction. A crossing wind that causes the dog to divert his route in the direction of the wind has done so due to drift. These are all just examples. There are many factors, and they often occur in combinations. How they divert dogs goes back to flare, suction, or drift. Knowing this will help you understand why your dog can be expected to leave his true route during a retrieve.

Evan


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> Nope.....but I sure enjoy an animal that has it.......


 Dammit!! I hate riddles too.... handling? so there fore you would handle....


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I'd like to develop confidence.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I will play along.....the word is courage


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> I will play along.....the word is courage


Ok lets analyze why first, dog fades on line ,you whistle sit, cast into the wind but why wont he take the cast, because he cant smell a bird........take it from there.

The word is also a key component that is a must in people or friends of mine also or I would rather not have anything to do with them. Jim


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Honesty!........


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

jd6400 said:


> Ok lets analyze why first, dog fades on line ,you whistle sit, cast into the wind but why wont he take the cast, because he cant smell a bird........take it from there.
> 
> The word is also a key component that is a must in people or friends of mine also or I would rather not have anything to do with them. Jim


I'll play with two guesses. I would say either trust or surrender. Even though that big ol' wet thing on the end of his face is telling him there is no bird over there (if there was he would have winded it already), he will trust you to put him on the bird. Or possibly surrender to the "dead bird" cue and your handling and let you put him on the bird. Seemingly not much difference either way.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> Ok lets analyze why first, dog fades on line ,you whistle sit, cast into the wind but why wont he take the cast, because he cant smell a bird........take it from there.
> 
> The word is also a key component that is a must in people or friends of mine also or I would rather not have anything to do with them. Jim


TRUST.....the dog must first learn to trust that when you cast him youre sending him to he pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, that he isnt going to get crucified(nicked, burned etc)


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Bingo.....TRUST...Dog needs to trust you instead of his nose....I`ve got lots of drills that have been handed down that I use but common sense is a great approach when when gaining TRUST.

Dont get on here much but enjoyed the discussion. Jim


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Honesty!........


 That is the first thing I look for in people... 

Trust is good!!!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> Ok lets analyze why first, dog fades on line ,you whistle sit, cast into the wind but why wont he take the cast, because he cant smell a bird........take it from there.
> 
> The word is also a key component that is a must in people or friends of mine also or I would rather not have anything to do with them. Jim


Trust................

Didn't read far enough down...


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Trust is established by consistently demanding high levels of responsiveness. You can't have one without the other. A dog may believe you if he has learned to pay attention. However, listening requires focus and control. In addition, experience hasn't even entered the discussion. 

So when a dog won't take the cast, where's the real problem? 

Blind faith regards, Jim


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Compliance Has to enter into this discussion!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> Compliance Has to enter into this discussion!


I agree with that, otherwise, your just dust in the wind.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Compliance Has to enter into this discussion!


It definitely does gooser. Would you comply though with your boss if you didn't trust him?I'm the type of individual that wouldn't.....there are others out there that would but not me....I'm like a Peake.haaa


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> I agree with that, otherwise, your just dust in the wind.


Ahh...Kansas....


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Once you think your dog is taking casts into the wind and holding the cast, step things up a knotch.
Set up a land blind where the dog gets a little wet up front, nothing big just get wet, then see if dog holds cast into the wind.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

jd6400 said:


> It definitely does gooser. Would you comply though with your boss if you didn't trust him?I'm the type of individual that wouldn't.....there are others out there that would but not me....I'm like a Peake.haaa


Remember...they don't think like us. I am sure you know this. Trust comes from uncertainly and that takes time.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

I hate fly fishing in the wind. I did watch a river ran through it.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I do as so; especially the spots that I want to fish, know they are there and can’t get to that spot. Good ole’ Idaho wind. I guess that is why they call it fishing.
Great movie too….


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The following is only my opinion.

I believe we have the cart before the horse.

We teach compliance right out of the gate with basic obedience. A snap of the lead for heel. A tap on the butt for sit.if you comply with the command, life is good.If not, another snap of the lead, or tap on the butt.

Later we start the force training. Fetch is taught with the ear pinch . Comply, and no pinch and some praise! Do not comply, force applied till the dog becomes compliant.
We move on to field work. Our beginning blinds. Dog doest like to be stopped when sent, we taughthim that in the yard with pile work. So, our blinds now we use that as a method to teach compliance to our cast, either with attrition, or collar.
they begin to learn, that if they comply, thet will get to run, and if they comply with casts, they find the bird we directed them to.

After a good dose of this, and many many blinds with all kinds of factors, Then, and IMHO only then doest the dog start to trust.

It was compliance to commands given that taught him to trust us,,,

Do as I say, and you will get your reward unconditionally.

again,, Just my humble opinion


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Remember,

One of the strong traits of retrievers is they "like to Please"
Isnt that kinda the definition of being compliant?


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Compliance is what we get from FTP and ff etc. FTP and FF will help you develop a compliant blind running dog. IT is trust however that transforms "back" and "over" from commmands you give your dog to promises you make him.


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

Waterdogs said:


> I hate fly fishing in the wind. I did watch a river ran through it.


+1 

Knot on the end of my fly rod regards,


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Very well put.



jhnnythndr said:


> Compliance is what we get from FTP and ff etc. FTP and FF will help you develop a compliant blind running dog. IT is trust however that transforms "back" and "over" from commmands you give your dog to promises you make him.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

http://takemefishing.org/fishing/fly-fishing/fly-casting/casting-in-the-wind/


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

OK,, Let me ask this!

If you are required to run a cross wind blind. A blind where wind is perpendicular to the line of the blind..

If the dog gets into a position where it needs a hard over cast into that wind,,, to get back into position,,,,, Whos fault is that??

Gooser


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

*A lot of anthropomorphism buried in this thread. Describing how dogs think and learn in human terms, emotions and concepts doesn’t often help you train your dog unless it helps you do the right things. Often anthropomorphism leads you down the wrong path. Solutions to teaching dogs how to deal with factors such as wind has been rather light in this thread despite all the talk about “why”.


Dogs primarily operate in their own interests not yours. Some interests are just basic like wanting food and mating. But dogs also like to be comfortable and they like rewards. Some of their really big rewards are retrieving objects (getting “prey”) but they also don’t like to get in trouble or endure pain. Good training makes your interests their interests. That’s why they like praise (means no trouble!) and they comply with commands. Force fetch, Force to Pile and DTT are simply developing conditioned responses, that is, behaviours that develop from consequences (good and bad!). In other words, with proper training almost all of their obedience responses are simply conditioned responses that are developed through rewards (praise) and lack or cessation of aversives. We use reinforcement and punishment to increase some behaviours and decrease others. Dogs seek rewards. 


Trust for humans means to rely on somebody or to have confidence in them. Dogs don’t sit there and say I’ll do whatever you want because I trust you. Rather you teach them through operant conditioning the behaviours that you want. They do them in their own self interest of rewards and lack of aversives. A dog that is successful in getting rewards and is consistently treated is confident and has a good attitude. That’s why some very disrespectful and what I would call inhumane methods work. The dog still gets a reward but the trainers are consistent.  For me the end does not justify the means but for many it does!


So-- dogs learn to deal with factors through conditioned responses to commands and situations. Consistency is huge. When confronted with wind, an inexperienced dog will think “I can’t smell anything therefore I follow my nose (and fade with the wind)". On a cross wind water swim, things aren’t very promising (can’t smell-can’t see anything), they aren’t comfortable and there is an easier way over there downwind towards land! 

The experienced, trained dog knows that if he keeps going he will be rewarded. If MASTER says go “there” his conditioned response is to do as told because he will rewarded. The dog is still operating in his own self-interest!! This only comes from consistency (trainer maintains standard of casting and adherence to line all the time if factors present).


Solutions to fighting factors involve:
1. Good mechanics of casting and handling –ideally literal casts, good quick, straight sits.
2. Re-establishment of standards in the yard and in drills when needed
3. Repetition in the field with clean lessons. 
4. Theming and repetition in the field in different conditions (3-peats progressively into the wind for example).
5. Consistency


Many dogs that have trouble with holding a line into or across the wind also have trouble with fighting other factors. They simply haven’t been taught how to respond to these factors. A consistent approach using rewards and aversives will teach them that it is in their best interests. If they become reliable, I’ll acknowledge that they will do these things with compliance and confidence. 

They trust that it is in "THEIR" best interest!! Humans interpret that to mean they trust "YOU"


That is what I call a "TRUSTING PARTNERSHIP between me and my dog!"


Cheers*


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I'll go along with Dennis and separate the rest of the curve balls in the thread


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Great answer Dennis , Thank you! I will say half the answers were trying to figure out the "riddle" and not the answer to the original question... Ahh RTF at it's best


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

I love the sound of ash smashing leather, the ring is so pure you can feel a home run is a certainty without waiting for the cheers. Nice one Dennis!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Is it that complicated? Don't dogs just prefer the path of least resistance?

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JS said:


> Is it that complicated? Don't dogs just prefer the path of least resistance?
> 
> JS


You're correct. It's not that complicated. Like most things, it requires fundamental soundness in the dog, appropriate handling, and frequent exposure to the situation to keep a dog sharp. Balance and good maintenance; simple, but sometimes overlooked.

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

JS said:


> Is it that complicated? Don't dogs just prefer the path of least resistance?
> 
> JS


Absolutely Yes! Dogs prefer the path of least resistance. That part is not complicated. Teaching them to not take the path of least resistance can be the complicated part!! 

It is also difficult is know the best way to get various different "individual" types of dog to perform the way we want. Achieving that in a effective, efficient and humane (fair) way can be very challenging. 

There are sound principles that we can follow. But implementing them for all dogs to a very high Level, such as National Competition, is indeed complicated.

Frankly, teaching them to not fade with the wind can be one of the simpler challenges. Teaching them to not take the path of least resistance in all the behaviors that WE seek is indeed complicated!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Evan said:


> You're correct. It's not that complicated. Like most things, it requires fundamental soundness in the dog, appropriate handling, and frequent exposure to the situation to keep a dog sharp. Balance and good maintenance; simple, but sometimes overlooked.
> 
> Evan


I would agree, Evan, that the fundamentals and the principles are not complicated but implementing them to achieve desired behavior at the highest level can be very complicated. At the very least, achieving *fundamental soundness*,* appropriate handling, and frequent exposure, *appears to be a real challenge based on RTF! 

While I agree that Balance and Maintenance are critical. don't forget the OP and others have not yet got that to the point where maintenance is possible because there was little balance between the dogs natural abilities (tendencies) and trained abilities.

Cheers


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

I should clarify my statement above:

"Frankly, teaching them to not fade with the wind can be one of the simpler challenges". 

I am suggesting that the formula for teaching this is quite straightforward. However, achieving it under all circumstances can be very difficult since "wind" is perhaps the strongest of all the factors.

We work on it throughout a dogs life and some dogs require more work than others.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Agree Dennis. Generalizing conditioned responses in retrievers is a very difficult task, simply because we ask them to operate in such a wide variety of terrain and environments. Every pond and every ditch and every strip of cover look different in their minds. It's rare that one retrieve is exactly the same as the next and if you have a national competitor, even less so.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Excellent stuff above guys…kudos…great thread.  Enjoyed the reading.

So really in hind sight the end result is: They are dogs and the end product is a dog understanding our training methods to reach our means or goals…and the key is…our goals, and most paramount, being fair about it. 
My penny worth.


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

A newbie question:

So, you set up a drill or a three-peat, or whatever, in which the idea is to increase the wind angle with each blind. What I don't understand is: How are you improving the dog's understanding of what you want? You send him to a blind; he drifts with the wind. You stop him and correct his line with a cast. He takes the cast. But, from that, how does the dog figure out to hold the initial line? Is it that he learns that drifting with the wind produces unpleasant consequences? But, then, why doesn't the dog conclude that he should simply always turn into the wind, like a dog thats been overly corrected for getting out of water who concludes that he should always stay in the water? 

In other words, are you trying to teach the dog to take a cast into the wind, or are you trying to teach them to hold a straight line to the goal, regardless of the wind? Aren't those two different things? Or am I overthinking it?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

PalouseDogs said:


> A newbie question:
> 
> So, you set up a drill or a three-peat, or whatever, in which the idea is to increase the wind angle with each blind. What I don't understand is: How are you improving the dog's understanding of what you want? You send him to a blind; he drifts with the wind. You stop him and correct his line with a cast. He takes the cast. But, from that, how does the dog figure out to hold the initial line? Is it that he learns that drifting with the wind produces unpleasant consequences? But, then, why doesn't the dog conclude that he should simply always turn into the wind, like a dog thats been overly corrected for getting out of water who concludes that he should always stay in the water?
> 
> In other words, are you trying to teach the dog to take a cast into the wind, or are you trying to teach them to hold a straight line to the goal, regardless of the wind? Aren't those two different things? Or am I overthinking it?


By running the dog on a known pattern blind, he or she will more naturally fight factors (go straight), and with lots of repetition, hopefully get used to fighting those factors. My house is on 40 acres of very hilly pasture land. Over the years I have run thousands of side hill and up and down land blinds. I notice that my dogs are usually quite good when we encounter lots of terrain in a field trial. They aren't good because I put a lot of pressure or corrections, they are good because they are very used to dealing with the factor.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> By running the dog on a known pattern blind, he or she will more naturally fight factors (go straight), and with lots of repetition, hopefully get used to fighting those factors. My house is on 40 acres of very hilly pasture land. Over the years I have run thousands of side hill and up and down land blinds. I notice that my dogs are usually quite good when we encounter lots of terrain in a field trial.* They aren't good because I put a lot of pressure or corrections, they are good because they are very used to dealing with the factor*.


John : you hit on exactly why I politely disagreed with Gooser about running lots of COLD BLINDS.

Clint has always had the reputation of having very good lining dogs...notice I said lining and not necessarily handling, but one of the things he does to promote that is to run a lot of sight blinds and very few cold blinds,because with sight blinds as with pattern blinds the success rates are high as compared to cold blinds where more corrections are needed and they turn into testing the dog as opposed to teaching the dog..like I stated its more a philosophical stance than a procedural one

You are also correct about having rolling hills for training grounds, just like a golf course the changes in slope can be just a diabolical on a short retrieve as opposed to one on a flat featureless field


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

PalouseDogs said:


> A newbie question:
> 
> So, you set up a drill or a three-peat, or whatever, in which the idea is to increase the wind angle with each blind. What I don't understand is: How are you improving the dog's understanding of what you want? You send him to a blind; he drifts with the wind. You stop him and correct his line with a cast. He takes the cast. But, from that, how does the dog figure out to hold the initial line? Is it that he learns that drifting with the wind produces unpleasant consequences? But, then, why doesn't the dog conclude that he should simply always turn into the wind, like a dog thats been overly corrected for getting out of water who concludes that he should always stay in the water?
> 
> In other words, are you trying to teach the dog to take a cast into the wind, or are you trying to teach them to hold a straight line to the goal, regardless of the wind? Aren't those two different things? Or am I overthinking it?


Running in a straight line is a product (I believe) of making the correct decision when faced with each factor that would prevent it. 

Cover in your way, get in. Water, same thing. Wind on your face, keep it there. 

I believe the dog learns that the discomfort/difficulty of dealing with the factor is less aversive that the consequence of avoiding it. 

In young dogs this consequence is not getting rewarded (no retrieve). In older dogs, indirect pressure from the e-collar may be employed by some trainers. 

I don't see why you couldn't get a dog out of balance with regard to wind just like you can with water Kelly. I'd be pretty confident saying it's possible, however, with wind being invisible, I imagine it would be more difficult to do than with something they can see, like water. 

The dogs picture memory is much stronger than that of any other sense.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> John : you hit on exactly why I politely disagreed with Gooser about running lots of COLD BLINDS.
> 
> Clint has always had the reputation of having very good lining dogs...notice I said lining and not necessarily handling, but one of the things he does to promote that is to run a lot of sight blinds and very few cold blinds,because with sight blinds as with pattern blinds the success rates are high as compared to cold blinds where more corrections are needed and they turn into testing the dog as opposed to teaching the dog..like I stated its more a philosophical stance than a procedural one
> 
> You are also correct about having rolling hills for training grounds, just like a golf course the changes in slope can be just a diabolical on a short retrieve as opposed to one on a flat featureless field



The modern All Age blind is very difficult to line. To run such blinds well, you need a dog that will handle. You run Cold Blinds to teach a dog to handle.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> John : you hit on exactly why I politely disagreed with Gooser about running lots of COLD BLINDS.
> 
> Clint has always had the reputation of having very good lining dogs...notice I said lining and not necessarily handling, but one of the things he does to promote that is to run a lot of sight blinds and very few cold blinds,because with sight blinds as with pattern blinds the success rates are high as compared to cold blinds where more corrections are needed and they turn into testing the dog as opposed to teaching the dog..like I stated its more a philosophical stance than a procedural one
> 
> You are also correct about having rolling hills for training grounds, just like a golf course the changes in slope can be just a diabolical on a short retrieve as opposed to one on a flat featureless field



Nothing says that with a YOUNG dog, learning to handle,, on its first cold blinds,, that you have to use heavy correction or collar!!!
You are teaching them to HANDEL and get use to LOTS of whistles..
Attrition is your friend...

Lines come later....

About the only thing that would warrant a collar correction is a sloppy or refusal to sit on the whistle..


Please Note!

This method has worked very well for me so far!
Its what Mr Farmer describes on his Vinwood kennels web site..
Also, please note, Gooser doesnt have the competitive dog that Mr Malleri has,,but I am pleased with my dogs blind running ability


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

You are teaching them to HANDLE ,,, Or TAKE CASTS!!!!!

Thats what the OP started the thread about.

His dogs struggle with casting due to a factor.

Teach them FIRST to handle.

JMHO.

Amatureistic regards,

Gooser


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> The dogs picture memory is much stronger than that of any other sense.


Where can I find one of these dogs?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> You are teaching them to HANDLE ,,, Or TAKE CASTS!!!!!
> 
> Thats what the OP started the thread about.
> 
> ...


This isn't a one or the other question, you do both. I was just answering Kelly's question about why and how sight or pattern blinds help a dog learn to fight factors. You want a dog that will carry a line and handle. I run cold blinds 2:1 versus pattern blinds. I also handle my dog on the pattern field by adding factors, a gun, mark or hay bale obstical. I also change the angle by running from way different spots, and I occasionally send for one blind, then stop and cast ton another 2/3 of the way there.

We tend to argue black and white on RTF, it's usually more complicated than that.


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> You are teaching them to HANDLE ,,, Or TAKE CASTS!!!!!
> 
> Thats what the OP started the thread about.
> 
> ...


Based on the way the OP phrased the question, his dog is not _*taking*_ a cast into the wind. Before he sets up cold blinds or 3-peats or whatever, wouldn't the first step be far more basic? Shouldn't he start with casting drills on windy days? My completely novice inclination would be to start ultra-simple (if the problem is extreme) with a pile of white bumpers on short grass at a short distance. Rotate yourself and the dog so that you are making different casts and the dog has to go different angles with respect to the wind. (E.g., if wind is from 9 o'clock, set pile at 9 o'clock, dog at center of clock face, handler at 3 o'clock, cast right and left back. move yourself to 6 o'clock, cast left over, etc., then set up to pile is at 90 degrees to wind, etc.) With only one visible pile to start, the dog essentially has to take the cast into the wind and can't be wrong. Over time, add distance, switch to orange bumpers, add piles, etc., etc.)

It seems to me that before you try to teach a dog to *hold* a line against wind using a cold blind combined with casting into the wind, you have to first teach them to *take* a cast into the wind.

But, given that dogs do not generalize well, how well do casting drills on windy days translate to taking casts into wind on cold blinds?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

My response on red!



Based on the way the OP phrased the question, his dog is not _*taking* a cast into the wind. I would think FIRST you would have to ask yourself how well the dog handels?? Is that dog a young dog that really doesnt have much experience being handled? is the Basics solid? Is the dog really ready to run a cold blind with a strong factor like wind? Before he sets up cold blinds or 3-peats or whatever, *wouldn't the first step be far more basic?**Read my answere in red below!*Shouldn't he start with casting drills on windy days? My completely novice inclination would be to start ultra-simple (if the problem is extreme) with a pile of white bumpers on short grass at a short distance. Rotate yourself and the dog so that you are making different casts and the dog has to go different angles with respect to the wind. (E.g., if wind is from 9 o'clock, set pile at 9 o'clock, dog at center of clock face, handler at 3 o'clock, cast right and left back. move yourself to 6 o'clock, cast left over, etc., then set up to pile is at 90 degrees to wind, etc.) With only one visible pile to start, the dog essentially has to take the cast into the wind and can't be wrong. Over time, add distance, switch to orange bumpers, add piles, etc., etc.)
My responses in red!!!!




It seems to me that before you try to teach a dog to *hold a line against wind using a cold blind combined with casting into the wind, you have to first teach them to take a cast into the wind.
We teach them basic casts after the T the TT by running the handeling Wagon wheel. We TEACH them all those casts in a controlled situation. We teach the angle backs, right and lefgt, the angle ins, right and left, the straight comein cast,, and the refresher of the Overs ,right and left,along with the straight backs we ran them on with the T and TT!! We do this proceedure BEFORE we ask them to run their first cold blinds of course!!
But, given that dogs do not generalize well, how well do casting drills on windy days translate to taking casts into wind on cold blinds?

I dont believe drills necessarily do translate to cold blinds with some factors! The only way to have the dog comfortable with those certain situations is to run a LOT of cold blinds!! WITH!!!!! a very good foundation in basics!!,,,,, and add Factors as you progress..




P.S.

My good friend John!!! Not everybody runs pattern blinds!! I was stating my experiences with what has worked well recently for me.. Many roads to meca!*_


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

No problem Gooser.:razz:


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Damn!!! I can BaBBLE!!

I have posted this link many time!

It explains what I was trying to say much better than How I tried to say it..... Make sense??? Prolly not!!

http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfar...es/Starting Cold Blinds by Danny Farmer_1.pdf


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Bon, I am not sure I understand what you are saying, but I am sure that I want to.

My dog has lots of confidence and lots of momentum. He normally takes good initial lines, and we are starting to introduce lots of factors and handling. 

With a sight blind I know beyond a shadow of a doubt (barring some egregious factor) that he would line it if I would let him. I always blow at least one whistle with this dog, and I have learned when in doubt put a whistle on him. He is fast and can get in trouble very quickly.

Are you saying that sight blinds sort of help them learn to fight factors without really knowing they are being taught? Help a rookie out here. PM me if you don't want to have the discussion here.



BonMallari said:


> John : you hit on exactly why I politely disagreed with Gooser about running lots of COLD BLINDS.
> 
> Clint has always had the reputation of having very good lining dogs...notice I said lining and not necessarily handling, but one of the things he does to promote that is to run a lot of sight blinds and very few cold blinds,because with sight blinds as with pattern blinds the success rates are high as compared to cold blinds where more corrections are needed and they turn into testing the dog as opposed to teaching the dog..like I stated its more a philosophical stance than a procedural one
> 
> You are also correct about having rolling hills for training grounds, just like a golf course the changes in slope can be just a diabolical on a short retrieve as opposed to one on a flat featureless field


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Steve : as I mentioned in my post its more a philosophical stance as opposed to a procedural one .Ted and Gooser respectively come from one camp and I and my brother from another, even Lanse will tell you we differ..its basically a glass half full vs half empty debate, but in this one its a good lining dog vs a good handling dog. I come from the camp that prefers a good lining dog and teach them to handle, the Colorado contingent probably comes from the camp of preferring a good handling dog and teach them to line...

I believe the first cast is actually when the dog leaves you side,hence my stance on preferring a good lining dog, again that itself can be debated ad nausem or a urinating match..neither is right neither is wrong...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

It is a philosophical - and I think, practical - difference. I think it is important for young dogs to learn to handle and to learn what it means to be a team player. I think sight blinds do not foster handling and teamwork as well as cold blinds do. 

It is the rare All Age blind that can be lined. You need a dog that can take very precise casts. I think dogs that are raised with cold blinds are more likely to give me the cast I need. 

Ted


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'll openly admit that I have had fast, high momentum lining dogs, who at times don't like turning over the reins. I can't tell you how many blinds we lined out at full speed only to need a very slight change of direction, but can't get it. We were out of balance, which is a common theme throughout dog training. That doesn't mean I neglected cold blinds, like I said, I do two cold blinds for every pattern blind. It just means that for that high momentum, confident runner, I should have put a greater emphasis on zero tolerance, precise handling from the get go.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'll openly admit that I have had fast, high momentum lining dogs, who at times don't like turning over the reins. I can't tell you how many blinds we lined out at full speed only to need a very slight change of direction, but can't get it. We were out of balance, which is a common theme throughout dog training. That doesn't mean I neglected cold blinds, like I said, I do two cold blinds for every pattern blind. It just means that for that high momentum, confident runner, I should have put a greater emphasis on zero tolerance, precise handling from the get go.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> *I'll openly admit that I have had fast, high momentum lining dogs, who at times don't like turning over the reins*. I can't tell you how many blinds we lined out at full speed only to need a very slight change of direction, but can't get it. We were out of balance, which is a common theme throughout dog training. That doesn't mean I neglected cold blinds, like I said, I do two cold blinds for every pattern blind. *It just means that for that high momentum, confident runner, I should have put a greater emphasis on zero tolerance, precise handling from the get go.*


Why do you even need sight blinds/or pattern blinds with a dog like that? What does he learn? What do you think you are teaching him?

Like Ted says. There *IS* a philosophical difference.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Who are you to question me on why I train my dog the way I do?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Doug Main said:


> Why do you even need sight blinds/or pattern blinds with a dog like that? What does he learn? What do you think you are teaching him?
> 
> Like Ted says. There *IS* a philosophical difference.


I would bet the farm John got and gets the momentum from sight blinds and also a ton of confidence.......


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

jd6400 said:


> I would bet the farm John got and gets the momentum from sight blinds and also a ton of confidence.......


Yea, exactly.



John Robinson said:


> Who are you to question me on why I train my dog the way I do?


I'm a nobody - I don't know you. I don't care what you do to your dog.

I was just wondering why you are doing "momentum builders" with "high momentum lining dogs, who at times don't like turning over the reins". Seems counter intuitive to me.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Doug : the way Mr McFall used to explain it to me is that, he wanted the straightest running and lining dog because he could teach the dog to stop and turn

Here is another way to look at it Mr McFall didnt use a collar till very late in his career (when he no longer was able to go out and correct a dog due to failing eyesight and mobility)then he basically used it as a long distance heeling stick..The method of running sight blinds seem to work better with non collar trainers (which we are) because we are using the lure of the retrieve to PULL the dog and create momentum to the desired location, whereas a collar trainer is using a stimulus to PUSH the dog to attain momentum to the desired location


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Doug Main said:


> Yea, exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, fair question, sorry I took offense, but like most things in real dog training vs internet dog training, it's a long, complicated story. I personally like high momentum, good lining dogs. You can also do many things with pattern blinds besides just lining out there. You can run to one. Stop and cast to another. You can add guns, dry pops and poison birds. You can run them from all angles and directions.

Finally just because you run pattern blinds doesn't mean you don't hold high standards on the many , many, many cold blinds.you will run over the life of the dog. Like I keep preaching,read the dog and strive for balance.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Fair enough. That actually does help add to my understanding, such as it is.



BonMallari said:


> Steve : as I mentioned in my post its more a philosophical stance as opposed to a procedural one .Ted and Gooser respectively come from one camp and I and my brother from another, even Lanse will tell you we differ..its basically a glass half full vs half empty debate, but in this one its a good lining dog vs a good handling dog. I come from the camp that prefers a good lining dog and teach them to handle, the Colorado contingent probably comes from the camp of preferring a good handling dog and teach them to line...
> 
> I believe the first cast is actually when the dog leaves you side,hence my stance on preferring a good lining dog, again that itself can be debated ad nausem or a urinating match..neither is right neither is wrong...


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

That first sentence is us, and thus the reason that I also run more cold blinds than pattern blinds. Mine does not normally need any additional confidence about where he thinks it is. As I have said before, he is often wrong but never in doubt.

I do sometimes teach new factors/concepts by running the blinds in segments in reverse, which seems to help. But I have to pretty quickly move to another spot and try it again cold and handle.

With my dog, getting the cast is the most important thing in just about every circumstance. And I constantly remind myself that the dog does not know where the blind is, so we may occasionally zig-zag all over the place, again under the theory that he just needs to give me the cast I am asking for, much like John's last post alludes to.

Good discussion. I have learned a few things from it for sure.



John Robinson said:


> I'll openly admit that I have had fast, high momentum lining dogs, who at times don't like turning over the reins. I can't tell you how many blinds we lined out at full speed only to need a very slight change of direction, but can't get it. We were out of balance, which is a common theme throughout dog training. That doesn't mean I neglected cold blinds, like I said, I do two cold blinds for every pattern blind. It just means that for that high momentum, confident runner, I should have put a greater emphasis on zero tolerance, precise handling from the get go.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

OK there's lots of ways to train a dog.

I am just surprised to hear somebody regularly running all-age dogs on pattern blinds other than to fix a problem. 

I've even heard some successful trainers go so far as to say they especially with a dog that doesn't like to turn over the reigns, that they don't let the dog line a blind in training.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Doug Main said:


> OK there's lots of ways to train a dog.
> 
> I am just surprised to hear somebody regularly running all-age dogs on pattern blinds other than to fix a problem.
> 
> I've even heard some successful trainers go so far as to say they especially with a dog that doesn't like to turn over the reigns, that they don't let the dog line a blind in training.


There you go Doug; in a trial both Clint and Lanse are trying to LINE every blind...Lanse trains with a collar, Clint does not


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Getting a dog to stop and turn isn't all that tough. Getting a dog to stop, turn, and then hold that cast is an entirely different thread and yet very complementing of the OP's question of casting a dog into the wind.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> There you go Doug; in a trial both Clint and Lanse are trying to LINE every blind...Lanse trains with a collar, Clint does not


Well, of course! In a trial, everyone is trying to line the blind. What's your point?

I've never seen a dog that lined a blind at a trail and not pick up the bird because it expected to be handled!!  However, I've seen several pick ups because their dog wouldn't handle. Even Lanse.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Good thread, kind of opening my eyes. I have trained with a lot of really good amateurs and some very we'll respected pros over the years. I don't know about every pro, but the two I have spent the most time with do pattern blind drills for every dog on the truck, qual level to mature all age. Most amateurs I know do pattern blinds on their own time. All these people also run a lot of cold blinds, typically two or more a day, depending on time of year, at least one land and one water.

It never occurred to me that some trainers forgo one or the other. How about a poll for those that do one, the other or both?


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Ill play John. I do both. As a "general" rule I run more cold blinds.....depends on the dog. Probably 3:1 cold blinds.
I'm just a low life hunt tester, but I believe a well trained dog is a well trained dog. They don't have a clue what venue they are running.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Doug Main said:


> Well, of course! In a trial, everyone is trying to line the blind. What's your point?
> 
> I've never seen a dog that lined a blind at a trail and not pick up the bird because it expected to be handled!!  However, I've seen several pick ups because their dog wouldn't handle. Even Lanse.


Believe it or not Doug they arent: One of the things I used to really enjoy as a teen was to stand around and watch the test dog with all the handlers,especially during a blind...half the field would already start commenting on how many whistles the blind would take, then a few would watch the first couple of handlers and how they did,and change their strategy...When I would watch Clint, he would turn around and walk back to the truck and begin his prep for the blind. His philosophy was that he was going to attack the blind based on how he trained his dogs not on how the field was taking on the blind...The only dogs he wanted to watch were those just before him to see of the wind or sun conditions had changed

Lanse has a completely different pre test routine..He likes to go off and relax and sit in his truck, maybe do a crossword puzzle,call home,listen to messages,and basically relax...He will look at his situation in a trial and that may determine if he will attack the blind or play to not get hurt. IMHO its what makes him such a great tactician, he knows when to gamble and shoot the works, and he knows when a two whistle job will get him called back to the next series..Clint on the other hand knows only one way, he has admittedly thrown away many a trial in his younger day because he would go for lining the blind when a two whistle job would have been just fine

Again its a philosophical approach, its hard to ask an aggressive handler to play it safe, its also hard to ask a methodical handler to be a little reckless, its just not in their DNA, kinda makes things exciting


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I don’t see it as a philosophical issue, but instead see it as a choice and that doesn’t happen overnight. The choices we make happen for a reason despite what others have said. So now the question becomes…Which is right? I believe the team will determine that. 

My penny worth.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Where can I find one of these dogs?


If you own a dog, you found one. The statement doesn't apply 100% to marking, if that's what you're thinking. It refers to memorizing pictures it sees on a repeated basis. The dog sees a mark once, usually.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Removing the destination makes other things you might be working on easier for the dog to understand.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm in the less is more pattern blind camp, especially after introduction to cold blinds. 
But since that puts me in agreement with Gooser I will refrain from further comment as I realize I must be wrong


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

BonMallari said:


> Steve : as I mentioned in my post its more a philosophical stance as opposed to a procedural one .Ted and Gooser respectively come from one camp and I and my brother from another, even Lanse will tell you we differ..its basically a glass half full vs half empty debate, but in this one its a good lining dog vs a good handling dog. I come from the camp that prefers a good lining dog and teach them to handle, the Colorado contingent probably comes from the camp of preferring a good handling dog and teach them to line...
> 
> I believe the first cast is actually when the dog leaves you side,hence my stance on preferring a good lining dog, again that itself can be debated ad nausem or a urinating match..neither is right neither is wrong...


My dog was taught to line and this has come in handy. We did many lining drills with him as a young dog* in HRC* teaching. Now he holds an initial line well if I send him correctly. And no collar pressure involved in the teaching. I hate to see some one casting and having difficulty casting their young dog trying to get him to the blind zigzagging across the field nicking their dog. It sometimes can end up in a mess. I am not looking for trouble only success and a confident trusting smart dog to deal with factors. IMO
I agree with Ted you cannot line those longish blinds but you can get off to a very good start with a good initial line by trying to line it and challenge the line! JMO


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> My dog was taught to line and this has come in handy. We did many lining drills with him as a young dog* in HRC* teaching. Now he holds an initial line well if I send him correctly. And no collar pressure involved in the teaching. I hate to see some one casting and having difficulty casting their young dog trying to get him to the blind zigzagging across the field nicking their dog. It sometimes can end up in a mess. I am not looking for trouble only success and a confident trusting smart dog to deal with factors. IMO
> I agree with Ted you cannot line those longish blinds but you can get off to a very good start with a good initial line by trying to line it and challenge the line! JMO




Mary Jane

I would say don't confuse the product with the process. Young dogs can look more polished when they are starting to run blinds if you run them on a heavy diet of pattern blinds. But the young dog trained on cold blinds will eventually catch up - and I believe - although others disagree - will be a better handling dog in the end


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> Mary Jane
> 
> I would say don't confuse the product with the process. Young dogs can look more polished when they are starting to run blinds if you run them on a heavy diet of pattern blinds. But the young dog trained on cold blinds will eventually catch up - and I believe - although others disagree - will be a better handling dog in the end


Sent PM to you


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