# The (Mental) State of the RTF (total GDG)



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

While I am still entertained, and I LOVE RTF, the dynamics seem a bit... screwy... at the moment. The old truthtellers took what they believed to be truth, and stomped on it and flung it around like a rag doll; ever since the elitists are being deferential to the lowly, the experienced are denying the importance of their knowledge, the newcomers are emboldened, the knowledgeable are accommodating to idiocy--or at least idiosyncracy--and the video thing is verging on nuts.

So for fun...


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)




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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

So what are you saying?


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

moscowitz said:


> So what are you saying?


Just that things are a little wacky at the moment.

But maybe it's me. I might be drifting to the wacky threads?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Its not you Greta--this place has become a hotbed of politically correct kum-bye-yah namby pamby-ness. Heaven forbid those with knowledge and experience question those who think they know it all.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Well, have a lot of experience. But...I rarely know the answers to most training questions.
I'm not versed in the + p, or - r thingies..


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

cakaiser said:


> Well, have a lot of experience. But...I rarely know the answers to most training questions.
> I'm not versed in the + p, or - r thingies..


     ------


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

I think its the same as always. There are certain topics that usually start a fire. Mine being one of them. But honestly who cares. I just hate when threads get derailed by people only wanting to criticize and not add to the discussion. Disagreement is one thing but lets not ruin a topic.

There are a few positive trainers that wont post bc they get slammed apparently. I am not on here enough to see that. I am just going by the messages I got last night by those offering support but that werent comfortable posting. It doesnt bother me but it does some and thats a shame. There are plenty of places to talk about this stuff so no big deal but I do see the expertise on here and hope that I can get nuggets of info that will help in my training.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Pals said:


> Its not you Greta--this place has become a hotbead of politically correct kum-bye-yah namby pamby-ness. Heaven forbid those with knowledge and experience question those who think they know it all.


X2 You hit this post out of the park Nancy!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

There will always be those that question authority.
Authority doesnt like it cause they know they speak from experience, and believe "if it aint broke, dont fix it"


Those that question,, and think they know it all,,, find out pretty quick they should have listened..


( I speak from experience, previous know it all)

Gooser



(I thought P+ only had something to do with pistol ammo anyways... Still tryin to figger that one out.)


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

A combination of winter and a very large turnover in posters, the dynamics of RTF are very different than they were as recently as 5 years ago. Sayonara old RTF, I liked you quite a bit!


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

EdA said:


> A combination of winter and a very large turnover in posters, the dynamics of RTF are very different than they were as recently as 5 years ago. Sayonara old RTF, I liked you quite a bit!


No, no, no!

You must not go!

NOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo..................


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> Its not you Greta--this place has become a hotbead of politically correct kum-bye-yah namby pamby-ness. *Heaven forbid those with knowledge and experience question those who think they know it all*.


Heaven did allow it to happen here recently (link): Knowledge and Experience questions someone ..... 
#56 post


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I just want to say again that I love RTF.

I really do.

Maybe "Reason will return with the sun" should have been an option???

February can't end soon enough...


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Retriever trainers, regardless of discipline, are a cannabalistic lot.
We like to eat our own. With or without fava beans.


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## Steve Thornton (Oct 11, 2012)

That's just like the Internet in general. You have to take from it what you will and the rest with a grain of salt. But I have not been on here for long and can not speak to any change. Just my $.02


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Heaven did allow it to happen here recently (link): Knowledge and Experience questions someone .....
> #56 post


And it ended with an apology for asking a legitimate question. 

There is nothing wrong asking for clarification/qualifications of someone offering advice, that allows those asking questions to weed out the BS. AND there is nothing wrong with a good old smackdown. I've been on the receiving end of an RTF smackdown and I rightly deserved it, I learned a lesson to shut up and listen to those that have danced the dance, not just turned on the radio and sang along.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Scott Adams said:


> Retriever trainers, regardless of discipline, are a cannabalistic lot.
> We like to eat our own. With or without fava beans.


Funny you should mention that, Scott - the dog belonging to the subject of a 15-page "positive accomplishment" thread a while back tried to eat another dog _*not*_ its own (as in unprovoked attack as the other dog merely got off a truck to air) at training the other day. Don't know that that was a positive accomplishment, but that whole thread was full of fava beans or other gaseous matter if you ask me.

MG


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

crackerd said:


> Funny you should mention that, Scott - the dog belonging to the subject of a 15-page "positive accomplishment" thread a while back tried to eat another dog _*not*_ its own (as in unprovoked attack as the other dog merely got off a truck to air) at training the other day. Don't know that that was a positive accomplishment, but that whole thread was full of fava beans or other gaseous matter if you ask me.
> 
> MG


Since I went to bed before the magical dog returned to the crest of the hill, bumper in tow, I'm a little dissapointed that the soap opera has been cancelled by the network.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Sorry to disappoint Bert. 

MG as usual I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Cut it out, Bert - you know everybody likes a good Rudd Weatherwax or Victoria's Secret Stilwell story as to how retrievers _*ought*_ to be trained.

Bob, 'fraid you have no idea, period, when it comes to retriever training - but this ain't about you.

MG


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> And it ended with an apology for asking a legitimate question.
> 
> There is nothing wrong asking for clarification/qualifications of someone offering advice, that allows those asking questions to weed out the BS. AND there is nothing wrong with a good old smackdown. I've been on the receiving end of an RTF smackdown and I rightly deserved it, I learned a lesson to shut up and listen to those that have danced the dance, not just turned on the radio and sang along.


I felt that as the ADMINISTRATOR of the resource, I should not be calling out folks like Copterdoc to question their experience. To do so would be to set a precedent that could probably spiral out of control rather quickly. I apologized because I felt that I should have addressed the bad advice, and not call out what the trainer had accomplished. Others had preceded me in the questioning. I should have kept out of it.

The bad advice was the idea that if an All Age dog would not stop on a whistle in a poison bird blind, then the dog's basics were not properly done. My honest counter to that is that one has to train a dog well enough to even get the opportunity to run the blind. If one is not in the shoes of the trainer/handler who is regularly running all age poison bird blinds, they are very possibly not in a position to state that a dog who won't stop on a whistle in that situation did not have proper basics.

The reason the thread was locked was two-fold and it had nothing to do with my public apology for my feeling that I personally crossed the line. It was locked because someone posting under a handle was essentially accusing a trainer in a DVD of abuse. There was a good bit of behind the scenes private communication to try and get that individual to use the resource reasonably. That individual was not responding reasonably, "resigned" from the forum privately, and his account was deactivated. That in combination with the fact that the original poster of the thread asked that it be locked.

Yes, I could have just pulled the thread. But Dennis' reply and some just like it, were the reasons I left the thread up. That particular thread resulted in the original poster getting close to zero value out of it, and I don't believe he felt his question was ever answered.

Nancy and all I WELCOME you to help the board self-moderate. The only way we can self-moderate is to counter bad momentum. If someone's being a bullying to a newbie, it's OK to tell them that. All of you on RTF, please help me out and do it. If someone's giving a response to most every post with confusing advice that you think is wrong, please help out. Please counter that and state it.

With a group of users this large, the only way the flow is going the desirable direction is for the group to help moderate the flow. In many cases, I feel like the best thing I can do is just not post.

*I welcome "*smackdowns" from RTF users. A proper RTF smackdown addresses the issue, the topic, the information. An improper smackdown gets personal and hateful. We will never all agree on all topics. We are dog trainers. We won't agree on all topics. 

Regarding the apology for the way I addressed Copterdoc. I frankly wish more folks would show some accountability. Most of us show our butts on this site if we participate here long enough. Good trainers show accountability to their dogs. We don't always make good choices, we make plenty of mistakes. But good trainers show accountability. They admit through their actions and their followup that they were wrong, and they show the dogs another way. 

I do believe that some folks show some pretty crummy behavior on here from time-to-time and never own up to the fact they were wrong, or that they shouldn't have done it. So being 100% transparent, my apology to Copterdoc also had a portion of that. Do I regret putting Copterdoc in check on that thread? Nope. Do I regret the way I did it? Yeah, I do. Frankly, I should have kept out of it and let the members take care of it. Dennis had it well under control and others were joining in the flow. I should have kept out. Hence the apology.

Know what? The aritificial UV is just too much. I'm going to crawl under a little cave and let catch some shade.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

I have fun with Copter Doc on other forums. We train differently but he is a knowledgeable guy and offer good advice. I also know he can dish and take it.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

crackerd said:


> Cut it out, Bert - you know everybody likes a good Rudd Weatherwax or Victoria's Secret Stilwell story as to how retrievers _*ought*_ to be trained.
> 
> Bob, 'fraid you have no idea, period, when it comes to retriever training - but this ain't about you.
> 
> MG


Yup, it's a wonder my dogs pick up ducks. Keep it up MG


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bob Barnett said:


> I have fun with Copter Doc on other forums. We train differently but he is a knowledgeable guy and offer good advice. I also know he can dish and take it.


I've had fun with Copterdoc too. One day I hope to meet him in person. I did PM him and advise where I was set to judge ths Spring in IL, hoping we might meet and maybe I'd even get to see his dogs run.

I will comment that in the thread in question, the original poster did not get his question answered and he was totally confused by the responses. (original poster, I don't recall offhand who you were. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

Now, back out of this UV light for me.

Chris


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Pals said:


> Its not you Greta--this place has become a hotbead of politically correct kum-bye-yah namby pamby-ness. Heaven forbid those with knowledge and experience question those who think they know it all.


I believe I do posess a fair amount of knowledge and experience, and believe me I don't believe in political correctness, my reason for avoiding those threads is that I believe dog training is way more complex than the usual black and white answers offered up to a question, and that without seeing the actual dog in question, some advise given as gospel may well be the exact opposite to what that dog needs. It just drives me crazy. My usual advise to newbies is to search around in your area for a pro or good amateur group and hook up with them. I like the videos, I might even try to post my own.

As far as the positive only trainers, I have no idea how it works, am personally sceptical and see no reason to change the conventional way I train dogs because it has worked well for me, but it is their dogs and I don't see any harm in they're trying something new. Report back to me when you prove the method with some titles, derby points or placing in a qual.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Bob Barnett said:


> Yup, it's a wonder my dogs pick up ducks. Keep it up MG


I would, Bob, but apparently you deleted the thread Bert was commenting on - the "positive" thread where you backed yourself into a 300-yard "stumble-upon" blind corner. Remember? That's where you said at 4:05 a.m. today, "This isn't training" and then edited it a few minutes later to say "This was *typical training*."

And I said apropos of your noting elsewhere earlier that "the field trial and hunt test crowd are the most arrogant people I've ever met," that *we're here to help *- and to help you get over your retriever training ADD. What are you on now, your 22d or 23d program? (24th if you think of Milner as having a program.) But that's your call.

MG


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I believe I do posess a fair amount of knowledge and experience, and believe me I don't believe in political correctness, my reason for avoiding those threads is that *I believe dog training is way more complex than the usual black and white answers offered up to a question, and that without seeing the actual dog in question, some advise given as gospel may well be the exact opposite to what that dog needs. It just drives me crazy. My usual advise to newbies is to search around in your area for a pro or good amateur group and hook up with them.* I like the videos, I might even try to post my own.
> 
> As far as the positive only trainers, I have no idea how it works, am personally sceptical and see no reason to change the conventional way I train dogs because it has worked well for me, but it is their dogs and I don't see any harm in they're trying something new. Report back to me when you prove the method with some titles, derby points or placing in a qual.


And that is the kind of advice a newbie should be listening hard to John. Too many people try to make the dog fit the program, when they need to be working on using the program to fit(OR NOT) the dog they are training. Knowing when to step back, slow down, simplify, push on and evaluate a program and your dog is critical and comes with experience--you get experience by DOING. (Sage wisdom given to me by someone who has most certainly walked/talked/played the big game--very successfully) If you don't know what you are doing you find help, find a mentor--and you listen to what they tell you. 

As for the positive only threads--I have a real problem with the condescending tones/assumptions made that those that "collar" train are somehow cruel, less civilized or beneath them. And it really galls me that the perception is those of us training with the collar/pressure don't use positive training methods. There is a balance. Go too far one way or another and you really have a mess on your hands.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

crackerd said:


> I would, Bob, but apparently you deleted the thread Bert was commenting on - the "positive" thread where you backed yourself into a 300-yard "stumble-upon" blind corner. Remember? That's where you said at 4:05 a.m. today, "This isn't training" and then edited it a few minutes later to say "This was *typical training*."
> 
> And I said apropos of your noting elsewhere earlier that "the field trial and hunt test crowd are the most arrogant people I've ever met," that *we're here to help *- and to help you get over your retriever training ADD. What are you on now, your 22d or 23d program? (24th if you think of Milner as having a program.) But that's your call.
> 
> MG



MG, let me set you straight. The edited post was one that said this is typical training. It was a link to 2 videos of me running short handling drills. However they showed up as Xs and could not be viewed. It had nothing to do with the original video. I even said in the first post that this was not a training video. You are way off the mark detective. 

As for my statement I stand by that and you are tops on the list.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Pals said:


> And that is the kind of advice a newbie should be listening hard to John. Too many people try to make the dog fit the program, when they need to be working on using the program to fit(OR NOT) the dog they are training. Knowing when to step back, slow down, simplify, push on and evaluate a program and your dog is critical and comes with experience--you get experience by DOING. (Sage wisdom given to me by someone who has most certainly walked/talked/played the big game--very successfully) If you don't know what you are doing you find help, find a mentor--and you listen to what they tell you.
> 
> As for the positive only threads--I have a real problem with the condescending tones/assumptions made that those that "collar" train are somehow cruel, less civilized or beneath them. And it really galls me that the perception is those of us training with the collar/pressure don't use positive training methods. There is a balance. Go too far one way or another and you really have a mess on your hands.


Nancy this is the real disconnect. I feel it is the other way around. There are a few prominent trainers that act that way but the majority is collar trainers acting like positive trainers are clueless and inferior.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Pals said:


> And that is the kind of advice a newbie should be listening hard to John. Too many people try to make the dog fit the program, when they need to be working on using the program to fit(OR NOT) the dog they are training. Knowing when to step back, slow down, simplify, push on and evaluate a program and your dog is critical and comes with experience--you get experience by DOING. (Sage wisdom given to me by someone who has most certainly walked/talked/played the big game--very successfully) If you don't know what you are doing you find help, find a mentor--and you listen to what they tell you.
> 
> *As for the positive only threads--I have a real problem with the condescending tones/assumptions made that those that "collar" train are somehow cruel, less civilized or beneath them. And it really galls me that the perception is those of us training with the collar/pressure don't use positive training methods. There is a balance. Go too far one way or another and you really have a mess on your hands.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Bob Barnett said:


> Nancy this is the real disconnect. I feel it is the other way around. There are a few prominent trainers that act that way but the majority is collar trainers acting like positive trainers are clueless and inferior.


You do realize that video you posted of the 311 yard "blind" yesterday removed most of your credibility? 

It's frankly clueless to run that and then post a video of a dog running a "blind" toward a busy road over a hill where they can't be seen to handle. I'm glad it worked out, but think about what you posted.

If you want to train "positive", no one cares, your standards are your own. But an unsafe set-up is simply negligent. 

I hope the newbs who see/saw that video learn everything NOT to do in training.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

In response to Bob--You have admitted that your goals are your own, you are not competing. You say you have your own standard and that is absolutely fine!! How will you accomplish that 300, heck an 80 yard blind with tough factors--using positive ONLY training? I believe that means you can't say "NO"? I honestly don't think there is such a thing as 100% positive training. I judged a gentleman who used 100% positive methods(he told me this-his words) in a *senior*--his mark work was ok, his blind work was totally out of control. The dog would not handle, just ran around in circles hunting it up. The dog was being pushed by the wind and ran the bank etc..... I am not saying it can't be done, maybe it can--I don't know. But like John said, I'm going to go with what works and produces the results I want to see, the results that fit my goals. And I have found most HT and FT folks to be decent, not arrogant or unkind at all. 

Balance is everything--

as for condescending tones on here: maybe I'm being a baby, but I think calling someone a "collar trainer" is condescending and implies negative shock happy images. Kind of like me calling someone a cookie trainer--(which I am A LOT).


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Bob Barnett said:


> Nancy this is the real disconnect. I feel it is the other way around. There are a few prominent trainers that act that way but the majority is collar trainers acting like positive trainers are clueless and inferior.



Really, Bob? Because you sounded pretty condescending in the "positive only" thread started by Darrin:



Bob Barnett said:


> If you need a collar to make a dog come to you then you have issues with training


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Pals said:


> Its not you Greta--*this place has become a hotbead of politically correct kum-bye-yah namby pamby-ness*. Heaven forbid those with knowledge and experience question those who think they know it all.


Yup. It seems as if the people that actually know stuff have disappeared. So we are left with folks who don't know anything, patting each other on the back, A for effort.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

mitty said:


> Yup. It seems as if the people that actually know stuff have disappeared. So we are left with folks who don't know anything, patting each other on the back, A for effort.


Sadly RTF is nothing more than a microcosm of what's happening to our society in general. Children that engage in any competitive activity are taught that sitting there with a pulse gets rewarded as generously as putting forth an all-you've got effort. In life they learn that they never have to own poor decisions; there's always someone handy they can blame. Even our schools are being dumbed down to accomodate the ever-multiplying masses of the lowest common denominator. As RTF continues to grow in member numbers, that same culture, sadly, becomes the majority. It used to be those that didn't train with goals and a plan faded away after a year or two, now they just stop training dogs in real life and become internet trainers.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Nice thread, Greta.  Gotta say I agree with Pals 100% on all counts. Or is that 98%? Not positive, I get lost in all the quadrants and theories. ;-)


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Guess it depends on which one of my personalities you ask

I think RTF, is an excellent resource you are gonna have a few trouble makers and everybody has a staunch opinion of something im sure and occasionally offends someone but I dont think it is a problem until it is done to spite or openly bash someone.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Pals said:


> And that is the kind of advice a newbie should be listening hard to John. Too many people try to make the dog fit the program, when they need to be working on using the program to fit(OR NOT) the dog they are training. Knowing when to step back, slow down, simplify, push on and evaluate a program and your dog is critical and comes with experience--you get experience by DOING. (Sage wisdom given to me by someone who has most certainly walked/talked/played the big game--very successfully) If you don't know what you are doing you find help, find a mentor--and you listen to what they tell you.
> 
> As for the positive only threads--I have a real problem with the condescending tones/assumptions made that those that "collar" train are somehow cruel, less civilized or beneath them. And it really galls me that the perception is those of us training with the collar/pressure don't use positive training methods. There is a balance. Go too far one way or another and you really have a mess on your hands.


Nice post, Pals. Your grammar looks fine to me. 

Using a program to fit the dog is a lesson that I learned the hard way. Just as well, the learning will be better.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Pals said:


> In response to Bob--You have admitted that your goals are your own, you are not competing. You say you have your own standard and that is absolutely fine!! How will you accomplish that 300, heck an 80 yard blind with tough factors--using positive ONLY training? I believe that means you can't say "NO"? I honestly don't think there is such a thing as 100% positive training. I judged a gentleman who used 100% positive methods(he told me this-his words) in a *senior*--his mark work was ok, his blind work was totally out of control. The dog would not handle, just ran around in circles hunting it up. The dog was being pushed by the wind and ran the bank etc..... I am not saying it can't be done, maybe it can--I don't know. But like John said, I'm going to go with what works and produces the results I want to see, the results that fit my goals. And I have found most HT and FT folks to be decent, not arrogant or unkind at all.
> 
> Balance is everything--
> 
> as for condescending tones on here: maybe I'm being a baby, but I think calling someone a "collar trainer" is condescending and implies negative shock happy images. Kind of like me calling someone a cookie trainer--(which I am A LOT).


I didn't know that "collar trainer" was offensive. I'll make sure that I won't use that term.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

mitty said:


> Yup. It seems as if the people that actually know stuff have disappeared. So we are left with folks who don't know anything, patting each other on the back, A for effort.



Ok, but, can a dog actually hear a clicker at 350 yards?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Well, have a lot of experience. But...I rarely know the answers to most training questions.
> I'm not versed in the + p, or - r thingies..



I am surprised you made those field champions without knowing it....


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> Ok, but, can a dog actually hear a clicker at 350 yards?


Is a click considered a handle?


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Absolutely!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

rbr said:


> Is a click considered a handle?


Or a training device? Like the guy that said "good dog" to his dog at a FT... and got dropped for it?


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Or a training device? Like the guy that said "good dog" to his dog at a FT... and got dropped for it?


You know, I imagine it's still a sore subject for some, but I learned a whole lot on that thread about competition and standards and teamwork and training, and where a lot of really really really accomplished people draw the lines on those things.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Or a training device? Like the guy that said "good dog" to his dog at a FT... and got dropped for it?



AH, "The Good Dog thread" An RTF classic smackdown. I wish everyone could still read it , did anyone cut paste and save it.............john


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> Ok, but, can a dog actually hear a clicker at 350 yards?


JusticeDog

I actually was waiting for someone to ask that. I like you and your posts and don't mean to talk down to you in any way.

Someone who doesn't understand clicker training usually says something like that. However, I think that you do know psychology of learning and maybe just want to stir the pot. The clicker is a tool used in behavior modification, it marks a behavior, and is used at close range. It's use requires precision in the timing of the click. Those who use it effectively like it. When it was used in my own obedience class of 8 people, 6 were not effective. Total misuse of the tool. The 2 of us who were effective had experience with it. My clicker classmate has her dogs in dog food commercials on TV (Gaines, I think) as well as other commercials. I also used the clicker effectively because I experimented with it in the last 3 years and am familiar with it.

The clicker was not meant to be used at 350 yards but if I wanted to, I could because I am able to think outside the box. If I wanted to do it, here are three methods:

1) I would tape a walkie talkie to my dog's collar and I could transmit the click that way

2) I could stand a helper out in the field and tell him what I wanted clicked

3) I could condition other electronic signaling devices to serve the same function---tone signal in the remote collar, for example


If I want to experiment, maybe I will try it. I can afford to experiment. It's free, it's a challenge to form a training plan, I like shaping behaviors, and I like to test myself. I am not training dogs for money, I am very fluent in learning theory, and I have only myself to answer to.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

john fallon said:


> AH, "The Good Dog thread" An RTF classic smackdown. I wish everyone could still read it , did anyone cut paste and save it.............john


I don't know how people view that. I was gunning at a field trial where the handler said "Keep going" as the dog was on the way back after picking up a bird in the water. That is very obviously a bridge marker and could be construed as training. I don't know for sure but I didn't get the impression that he got dropped. His dog was one of the better dogs that day.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

gdgnyc said:


> JusticeDog
> 
> I actually was waiting for someone to ask that. I like you and your posts and don't mean to talk down to you in any way.
> 
> ...



With all due respect ...it seems like the underline is a a statement that is used on both side of the board.

"Someone who doesn't understand _collar_ training usually says something like that "

I _try_ to see both sides of the spectum. I try to use a collar correction to get an overall positive response.....I still have a lot to learn collar or not.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

gdgnyc said:


> JusticeDog
> 
> I actually was waiting for someone to ask that. I like you and your posts and don't mean to talk down to you in any way.
> 
> ...


Very good comment with some explanation as to how one could apply positive in the field if they wanted!!!


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Shawn White said:


> With all due respect ...it seems like the underline is a a statement that is used on both side of the board.
> 
> "Someone who doesn't understand _collar_ training usually says something like that "
> 
> I _try_ to see both sides of the spectum. I try to use a collar correction to get an overall positive response.....I still have a lot to learn collar or not.


I totally agree. I try not to make comments on things that I do not fully understand. I generally do not give advice on the forum about Field Trials, nuances of drills, test setups, etc. I try to restrict my comments to the science of things and behavior modification. Privately, I will advise when asked but usually preface my advice with what my experience is.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Very good comment with some explanation as to how one could apply positive in the field if they wanted!!!


Thank you. I always look for creative solutions to problems. I am a scientist, perhaps a mad one, but a scientist nevertheless.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

john fallon said:


> AH, "The Good Dog thread" An RTF classic smackdown. I wish everyone could still read it , did anyone cut paste and save it.............john


Oh, I so hope so.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> Or a training device? Like the guy that said "good dog" to his dog at a FT... and got dropped for it?


I don't remember that thread. Was it before my time? Or was it one of those scary threads a newb hopes they themselves will never experience?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

mitty said:


> I don't remember that thread. Was it before my time? Or was it one of those scary threads a newb hopes they themselves will never experience?


It was long before your time


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

mitty said:


> I don't remember that thread. Was it before my time? Or was it one of those scary threads a newb hopes they themselves will never experience?


It was long ago, and very messy. I'm sure most remember it for the mess. I remember it for a lightbulb moment. 

After I posted. Which I should not have. Because I didn't have any idea what I was talking about. 

Then, _"lightbulb."_


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Yes gdgnyc .....If one wanted to use "clicker" like training at a considerable distance, they could simply substitute an e-collar praise tone for the clicker in their training . I'll bet you could train for a clicker/praise tone parallel meaning with little effort..

john


----------



## Noah (Apr 6, 2003)

luvalab said:


> It was long ago, and very messy. I'm sure most remember it for the mess. I remember it for a lightbulb moment.
> 
> After I posted. Which I should not have. Because I didn't have any idea what I was talking about.
> 
> Then, _"lightbulb."_


My recollection of the "good dog" thread, boiled down to whether communicating to the dog once it was sent, by any means other than whistle or hand signal was appropriate during an actual run. In the same vein..was the "no hands" back thread.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

luvalab said:


> It was long ago, and very messy. I'm sure most remember it for the mess. I remember it for a lightbulb moment.
> 
> After I posted. Which I should not have. Because I didn't have any idea what I was talking about.
> 
> Then, _"lightbulb."_





EdA said:


> It was long before your time


Whew, thank you!


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

gdgnyc said:


> I totally agree. I try not to make comments on things that I do not fully understand. I generally do not give advice on the forum about Field Trials, nuances of drills, test setups, etc. I try to restrict my comments to the science of things and behavior modification. Privately, I will advise when asked but usually preface my advice with what my experience is.


That surprises me. You come across as a guy who thinks they have been there, done that. I think that you try to sell yourself as a very accomplished dog trainer. 

Me, I am a beginner. I have a two year old who has run puppy FT stakes.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

gdgnyc said:


> I totally agree. I try not to make comments on things that I do not fully understand. I generally do not give advice on the forum about Field Trials, nuances of drills, test setups, etc. I try to restrict my comments to the science of things and behavior modification. Privately, I will advise when asked but usually preface my advice with what my experience is.


I just tried to send you a PM, to introduce myself. But your box is full so it didn't go through.

I have nothing secret to say. I just wanted to give you my real name and contact info...since I was worried about being a non-peanut.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

mitty said:


> That surprises me. You come across as a guy who thinks they have been there, done that. I think that you try to sell yourself as a very accomplished dog trainer......


That's not the impression that I get.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> That's not the impression that I get.


Not a surprise to me. Copterdoc, you come across to me as "copterdoc way or the high way."

Your solutions always involve more pressure on the dog, you try really hard to convince me and others that more pressure is the answer. Whether you mean to or not, that is how you come across.

Both you and gdyncy seem like really nice folks, though.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> JusticeDog
> 
> I actually was waiting for someone to ask that. I like you and your posts and don't mean to talk down to you in any way.
> 
> ...


Actually, some of us are still attempting, albeit it very difficult these days. to have a little fun on this forum. Secondly, your "clicker modification" or thinking outside the box has already been done. The old "tone" collars. Some very accomplished pros found that they didn't work that well. Also, if you're doing to train a helper to click, timing will be everything, and will ultimately fail.... kinda like the new bird boy attempting to throw for a puppy.... it all goes down in a flush pretty darn quickly. Unless they took the class at the Jim VanEngen School of Bird boys.. 

Really didn't even think Gaines was still attempting to make dog food, thought they went out of business a long time ago regards-


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

mitty said:


> Not a surprise to me. Copterdoc, you come across to me as "copterdoc way or the high way."
> 
> Your solutions always involve more pressure on the dog, you try really hard to convince me and others that more pressure is the answer.....


 That's not how I intend to come across.

But, when what you are training on, is actually ABOUT pressure, it's not possible to avoid applying pressure without also erasing the objective of the training that you are trying to accomplish.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> Actually, some of us are still attempting, albeit it very difficult these days. to have a little fun on this forum. Secondly, your "clicker modification" or thinking outside the box has already been done. The old "tone" collars. Some very accomplished pros found that they didn't work that well. Also, if you're doing to train a helper to click, timing will be everything, and will ultimately fail.... kinda like the new bird boy attempting to throw for a puppy.... it all goes down in a flush pretty darn quickly. Unless they took the class at the Jim VanEngen School of Bird boys..
> 
> Really didn't even think Gaines was still attempting to make dog food, thought they went out of business a long time ago regards-



Now I'm going to her website to see which dog food it is. I did see the commercial, just don't remember which brand. Owner is Diana Frohman, she clicker trains and may even be writing articles on trick training, and she does freestyle with her dogs, both conformation champions.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

mitty said:


> I just tried to send you a PM, to introduce myself. But your box is full so it didn't go through.
> 
> I have nothing secret to say. I just wanted to give you my real name and contact info...*since I was worried about being a non-peanut.*


I wouldn't worry about it Renee. Lot of us think the peanut analogy was condescending in the workplace. Now, some of these people just have last word-itis -but your statement was pretty funny!


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> That's not how I intend to come across.
> 
> But, when what you are training on, is actually ABOUT pressure, it's not possible to avoid applying pressure without also erasing the objective of the training that you are trying to accomplish.


What? English please! 

Who has the total goal of applying pressure? Aren't we just trying to get the dog to do what we need it to do?


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

mitty said:


> WTF? English please!
> 
> Who has the total goal of applying pressure? Aren't we just trying to get the dog to do what we need it to do?


No.

Most of basics, is conditioning to pressure.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> No.
> 
> Most of basics, is conditioning to pressure.


In your world. In my world, I teach my dog.... Medal of Honor, QAA (Valor) went through basics with Andy Attar. I can provide you with his resume if you need it. He had virtually NO PRESSURE in the yard. He was TAUGHT. So, it's not MOST of basics. Valor was forced - but only as necessary and needed.


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Yes gdgnyc .....If one wanted to use "clicker" like training at a considerable distance, they could simply substitute an e-collar praise tone for the clicker in their training . I'll bet you could train for a clicker/praise tone parallel meaning with little effort..
> 
> john


Yep.
And, I wonder why some just assume, that has never been tried. Years ago.
Tried, and rejected. Fail.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Just went to the website and saw that he has done a commercial for Macy's. Her dogs also were in the Dodge Ram Truck ad that was a two page ad in magazines showing several retrievers lined up across a meadow and a gunner posed with them. If you look closely at the picture, you will see that it is really a small handful of dogs whose images have been repeated several times. All dogs from Long Island. There is one golden with a duck.

I didn't invent the girl or dog.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> In your world. In my world, I teach my dog.... Medal of Honor, QAA (Valor) went through basics with Andy Attar. I can provide you with his resume if you need it. He had virtually NO PRESSURE in the yard. He was TAUGHT. So, it's not MOST of basics. Valor was forced - but only as necessary and needed.


 Conditioning to pressure, doesn't mean what you think it means.

When a dog has been conditioned to pressure, it understands it. Like a new language.
It doesn't need to be "screamed" at the dog. But the dog needs to know what the pressure is saying.

It's a whole new way of communicating with the dog. A way that gets through, when words can't.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

cakaiser said:


> Yep.
> And, I wonder why some just assume, that has never been tried. Years ago.
> Tried, and rejected. Fail.


cakaiser

Could you tell us how much experience you have had clicker training, who you trained with, who tried what years ago?

Then I will take the time to explain to you the difference between science and anecdotal evidence and what a statistical analysis and significant difference is. I will even start with a good definition of science and why science is a required subject in high school. Then we could discuss Aristotelian science and why if it were never questioned we would still be in the Middle Ages. 

Tried, rejected, and fail is meaningless unless I see a scientific study.;-)


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> Conditioning to pressure, doesn't mean what you think it means.
> 
> When a dog has been conditioned to pressure, it understands it. Like a new language.
> It doesn't need to be "screamed" at the dog. But the dog needs to know what the pressure is saying.
> ...


That's probably what' holding her back, Susan doesn't understand...

Oh wait!

Non peanutty regards...


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

mitty said:


> That's probably what' holding her back, Susan doesn't understand...
> 
> Oh wait!
> 
> Non peanutty regards...


 Think about it like this.

If somebody says something to you in Japanese, you don't understand what they want.
If they say it louder, you still don't understand it.

If they yell it, you WILL react. But, your reaction, won't make any sense. 
Because, you don't understand.

They don't need to increase the volume. 
They need to teach you the language.

That's what has to happen in basics.
And pressure, is the language that you are teaching.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> Just went to the website and saw that he has done a commercial for Macy's. Her dogs also were in the Dodge Ram Truck ad that was a two page ad in magazines showing several retrievers lined up across a meadow and a gunner posed with them. If you look closely at the picture, you will see that it is really a small handful of dogs whose images have been repeated several times. All dogs from Long Island. There is one golden with a duck.
> 
> *I didn't invent the girl or dog*.


Wasn't suggesting you did. Only that I was amazed Gaines was still around. We used to feed Gaines burgers to my beagle as a kid. Couldn't believe they still made that stuff.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> Wasn't suggesting you did. Only that I was amazed Gaines was still around. We used to feed Gaines burgers to my beagle as a kid. Couldn't believe they still made that stuff.


Dogs love that stuff. If my memory serves me correctly, moist patties in like a cellophane?


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

gdgnyc said:


> cakaiser
> 
> Could you tell us how much experience you have had clicker training, who you trained with, who tried what years ago?
> 
> ...


I don't have to prove anything. You do.
LOL


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

mitty said:


> That's probably what' holding her back, Susan doesn't understand...
> 
> Oh wait!
> 
> Non peanutty regards...


I know Renee-but i am really going to try to do better.... 

I only have 2 HRCH SH dogs, 6 QAA dogs, a choco with derby points and qual placements and a couple of FCs. Only have had the privilege and fortune of training with some of the top pros in the country. 

But, Chopper Fixer knows it all, and I bow to his greatness. He surely should be writing for Retriever News or Retrievers Online. What Chopper Fixer doesn't realize is that many of those peeps he goes to club training day with know me quite well. And I used to train with the guys with the fancy jackets with all the HRC points on them. 

And, what I do realize, unlike some, is that pressure isn't about turning the dial on the collar. 

And, I do know what the pressure will feel like on my foot, when I put my size 8 boot in someone's behind regards-


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> cakaiser
> 
> Could you tell us how much experience you have had clicker training, who you trained with, who tried what years ago?
> 
> ...


You know, sometimes it is better to look up and see who someone is, and what dogs they have owned and successfully campaigned before giving such a retort. Then, you're question would have already been answered. It's stuff like this that keeps the knowledgeable people from helping out people who are actually trying to learn something. Charlotte has been around the block with training dogs for years. And, has trained with some of the best... both pros and amateurs. And owned some dogs that were the best of the best. Clicker training and operant conditioning wasn't invented yesterday.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> ....And, what I do realize, unlike some, is that pressure isn't about turning the dial on the collar......


 I really never ever said that it was.

That's all you.


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

Gdgnyc your pm box is full


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> Dogs love that stuff. If my memory serves me correctly, moist patties in like a cellophane?



yes. it had a very distinct smell.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I really never ever said that it was.
> 
> That's all you.


Wow. what an ego. Where in my post did i say you said this? 

_You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you 
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you 
Don't you? Don't You? Don't You? _


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> yes. it had a very distinct smell.


You are so right. Funny how so many things do.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> I really never ever said that it was.
> 
> That's all you.


No, copterdoc, that's you. You come across like someone who recommends a high 6 on the Tritronics if the dog makes a mistake.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> Wow. what an ego.....


 Yeah that's it. I have an enormous ego.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

mitty said:


> No, copterdoc, that's you. You come across like someone who recommends a high 6 on the Tritronics if the dog makes a mistake.


 Show me where I EVER said to turn it up.

That didn't come from me.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Charlotte what was the consensus on why the beeper on the collar used as a positive re-enforcer failed? Just trying to learn from those that have tried it in the past to keep from making mistakes or wasting time in the future.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

The sad state of affairs is that folks that don't get it, don't know they don't get it.

Again, non peanut-ty regards...

PS Also Cluelessly yours...I hope I know what I know and know that I don't know much...

PSS Please Mr Janitor don't suspend my account...I love it here...


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Gdgnyc your pm box is full


I made some space. I'm ready to start ducking punches.


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> *Have RTFers lost their minds?*


Yes, but unlike the poll questions imply, this isn't anything new and represents the status quo ante. All RTF members are totally and utterly barking except me, Polmaise, and Molly99, and I'm a bit unsure about both of them too, (or two). All the people I met (and meet) in the United States are without exception charming flakes who have difficulty in discerning which way is up, or how to get home without the aid of a big ball of string. Viewing RTF does nothing to contravert that observation, so in being lunatics you are all perfectly normal.

Looking at the latest little difficulty one cannot help but be reminded of Gullivers' Travels and the tale of the war between The Big Endians and The Little Endians, a wretchedly futile conflict between mutually uncomprehending peoples based on a piddling trifle. Perhaps we should characterise the RTF version as The Electricians Union versus the The Confectioners Association, consign it to history, and have done with it.

Eug

PS I wouldn't want any Canadian members to think I'm implying dubious mental powers in them too; I am, but I don't want them to think it.:BIG:


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Gimme some of that scrumpy, Eug - and while you're at it, multiple IVs of it for the Villa lineup too.

MG


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

colonel blimp said:


> all rtf members are totally and utterly barking except me, polmaise, and molly99, and *i'm a bit unsure about both of them too, (or two)*.


:d:d:d......i was thinking the same myself


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Yes, but unlike the poll questions imply, this isn't anything new and represents the status quo ante. All RTF members are totally and utterly barking except me, Polmaise, and Molly99, and I'm a bit unsure about both of them too, (or two). All the people I met (and meet) in the United States are without exception charming flakes who have difficulty in discerning which way is up, or how to get home without the aid of a big ball of string. Viewing RTF does nothing to contravert that observation, so in being lunatics you are all perfectly normal.
> 
> Looking at the latest little difficulty one cannot help but be reminded of Gullivers' Travels and the tale of the war between The Big Endians and The Little Endians, a wretchedly futile conflict between mutually uncomprehending peoples based on a piddling trifle. Perhaps we should characterise the RTF version as The Electricians Union versus the The Confectioners Association, consign it to history, and have done with it.
> 
> ...



Hey, Colonel blimp, are you talking to me? Nobody else here, you must be talking to me.

You are really a character and you could say anything. I think that you are hilarious!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

mitty said:


> *The sad state of affairs is that folks that don't get it, don't know they don't get it*.
> 
> Again, non peanut-ty regards...
> 
> ...


Yup, Yup! I think Capt. Jack says it best.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Ken, you are a riot!


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

gdgnyc said:


> cakaiser
> 
> Could you tell us how much experience you have had clicker training, who you trained with, who tried what years ago?
> 
> ...


Thank you, thank you, thank you, I will be laughing at this for a loooooooong time.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

mitty said:


> Not a surprise to me. Copterdoc, you come across to me as "copterdoc way or the high way."
> 
> Your solutions always involve more pressure on the dog, you try really hard to convince me and others that more pressure is the answer. Whether you mean to or not, that is how you come across.
> 
> Both you and gdyncy seem like really nice folks, though.


Nicely put, Renee.


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Ya know.. it's really getting ****ty around here. yea that's right... ****ty... it's not PC to say ****TY is it?
> 
> A while back I had made a comment about teaching a puppy to sit automatically when she saw something thrown.
> 
> ...


Darrin,
Lots of people read and learn here.
I would have liked to have read that information.

It's the internet, it's letters on a screen.
Let 'r rip............thicken up the skin.
If you can help someone, you done good.
People that denigrate the work of others often have nothing of substance to offer.

For an example, I have a really solid way to teach a dog not to creep or break.
I would never tell it here.

Another example in regard to e-collars.
When I get mine out, Elvis goes bonkers, he is sooo excited and happy.
He comes right up to me, sticks his head between my legs and his tail is wagging as I put the collar on.

Obviously, I am using the e-collar wrong!!!!

Sorry, just babbling......but I would like to read you solution on the "sit" issue.

Thanks,


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

But Stan, you DID put up a post about your anti creeping, barking, etc program. It seemed pretty logical to me. Are you talking about a different process now? Sorry but I figured it would not hurt to GDG up this thread!


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Like it or not there's a huge movement toward "positive only" training that's happening right in front of our faces. It's very vocal and very emotionally attractive to the general public. The same assault you're seeing right now on your second amendment rights is eventually coming your way against your e-collar. The country is moving politically to the left, whether you like it or not and the right sure as hell is failing at even slowing it down much less stopping it! 

Being involved with detection dogs, pet dogs and a positive only working dog program that's developing FEMA SAR puppies has forced me to study and understand the methods used, in addition to my rudimentary knowledge of retriever training methods. I can tell a customer "my way or the highway" or I can adapt to their emotional needs somewhat and show them how to train their dog. By adapting, the dog is better off, the owner is better off and my wallet is sure as heck better off!

Sorry if talking to folks about how to incorporate some of the stuff I see as potentially valuable to retriever work offends all you experts. 

I'm sure it's on an individual basis but I've been lucky enough to train with a lot of very accomplished folks in not only retrievers but schutzund, police and other working dogs the last couple of years. There's one thing most of them have in common regardless of their accomplishments.

It takes an open mind to train a dog.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

road kill said:


> Darrin,
> Lots of people read and learn here.
> I would have liked to have read that information.
> 
> ...


Yes Stan, but a BIG problem comes up when you head out into the real world and find out that the RTF peanut gallery (lurkers) are sitting at home, hanging on every word you type, passing judgement on you, not to mention the members. 

I have found it to limit training opportunities and I have no idea but I'm really sure it influences the ability of some people to judge appropriately when someone whose internet postings they don't like comes to the line. I can see it influencing one's ability to get a good pup from certain breeders as well. 

In that vein I find it best to keep my keyboard quiet, especially with regard to specific training questions. 

I learned this the hard way and I still sometimes have a lapse of judgement and post something I shouldn't. 

If you want that info PM and your email address and I'll gladly send it to you.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

road kill said:


> Darrin,
> Lots of people read and learn here.
> I would have liked to have read that information.
> 
> ...


Stan,

I would give you the same advice. To be honest now you have me curious as to whether the way you teach just the two items you listed would benefit me in my training. I just wish that we could all be able to converse about training with out the fear of being chastised for it. If those of you that have been training for a long time have been there and done that, then I would love to hear your take on it as to whether or not it worked for you and why or why not. There is not need to tear a person apart for trying to think outside the box, just as there is no reason for someone to get ultra defensive when someone is trying to give you advice contrary to your idea. Use your words and communicate people. No matter what System, style, whatever you use to train we are all here because we love our dogs and want to train them to the best of our abilities.


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

2tall said:


> But Stan, you DID put up a post about your anti creeping, barking, etc program. It seemed pretty logical to me. Are you talking about a different process now? Sorry but I figured it would not hurt to GDG up this thread!


Carol,
My post on vocal dog at the line was what I did to solve that issue.
It included not running tests for 8 months--1 summer.
That was very difficult to do!

As we are training for HRCH-Grand and MH now, no controlled breaks or bouncing.
I learned a way to fix that too.
Not really my style, but it worked.

Thanks,


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Most of my replies to training questions are rather short without much detail. The reason is I am trying to provoke thought and not answers. If you train dogs , what works today might not be the answer tomorrow. You really need to think out of a box all of the time. NOBODY can give you answers over the internet , only suggestions on what MAY work.

I have a force fetched dog, that is doing pattern blinds that sometimes I still do treat training with on obedience stuff.


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> Like it or not there's a huge movement toward "positive only" training that's happening right in front of our faces. It's very vocal and very emotionally attractive to the general public. The same assault you're seeing right now on your second amendment rights is eventually coming your way against your e-collar. The country is moving politically to the left, whether you like it or not and the right sure as hell is failing at even slowing it down much less stopping it!
> 
> Being involved with detection dogs, pet dogs and a positive only working dog program that's developing FEMA SAR puppies has forced me to study and understand the methods used, in addition to my rudimentary knowledge of retriever training methods. I can tell a customer "my way or the highway" or I can adapt to their emotional needs somewhat and show them how to train their dog. By adapting, the dog is better off, the owner is better off and my wallet is sure as heck better off!
> 
> ...


I've already posted too much in this thread, but it troubles me that you may think my comments were even partially directed at you, so here I go again...

I hope no one was taking a shot at you, I know I wasn't. I am sorry if I gave that impression. You are telling us how you do things and the results you are getting, and I like that.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> Like it or not there's a huge movement toward "positive only" training that's happening right in front of our faces. It's very vocal and very emotionally attractive to the general public. The same assault you're seeing right now on your second amendment rights is eventually coming your way against your e-collar. The country is moving politically to the left, whether you like it or not and the right sure as hell is failing at even slowing it down much less stopping it!
> 
> Being involved with detection dogs, pet dogs and a positive only working dog program that's developing FEMA SAR puppies has forced me to study and understand the methods used, in addition to my rudimentary knowledge of retriever training methods. I can tell a customer "my way or the highway" or I can adapt to their emotional needs somewhat and show them how to train their dog. By adapting, the dog is better off, the owner is better off and my wallet is sure as heck better off!
> 
> ...


Yeah, well, I'm not a vegan but the you-know-who would like the world to be that way, doesn't mean I'm giving up my steak now, just to make them happy. I don't think any of us are against learning and I read some of the "alternative" methods with interest, none of them have offered me a better alternative to what I and my trainers are doing now however. You described that sit conditioning in one of your previous posts, it was interesting, but, didn't personally find it better, faster or more reliable for what we do. I don't recall anyone attacking you for that description either. What works for pet dogs, awesome, but the attitude that we need to all change our methods to suit public opinion doesn't sit too well. No pun intended.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mitty said:


> I've already posted too much in this thread, but it troubles me that you may think my comments were even partially directed at you, so here I go again...
> 
> I hope no one was taking a shot at you, I know I wasn't. I am sorry if I gave that impression. You are telling us how you do things and the results you are getting, and I like that.


Not directed at anyone in particular Renee, except those who may be closed minded regarding any way other then their own to get the job done.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Rainmaker said:


> Yeah, well, I'm not a vegan but the you-know-who would like the world to be that way, doesn't mean I'm giving up my steak now, just to make them happy. I don't think any of us are against learning and I read some of the "alternative" methods with interest, none of them have offered me a better alternative to what I and my trainers are doing now however. You described that sit conditioning in one of your previous posts, it was interesting, but, didn't personally find it better, faster or more reliable for what we do. I don't recall anyone attacking you for that description either. What works for pet dogs, awesome, but the attitude that we need to all change our methods to suit public opinion doesn't sit too well. No pun intended.


That wasn't the point Kim.

I don't feel individually attacked, well, until now 

Let me be very clear. I don't advocate any particular method of training.

I do advocate a simple method of participating on internet bulletin boards.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

If it's not in some way useful, don't post it.

Don't ever look down on someone else's opinion. You may some day find it useful.

Be respectful and treat others as you would like to be treated. 

Pretty simple stuff, obviously forgotten in 12 pages of this junk.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

EdA said:


> A combination of winter and a very large turnover in posters, the dynamics of RTF are very different than they were as recently as 5 years ago. Sayonara old RTF, I liked you quite a bit!


Come back:

KG
Guthrie
Vicki
Jim Pickering
Lisa
Joe
Randy
Bait
more Ted
more Ed
Kristie

Good people with good advice


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

golddogs said:


> come back:
> 
> Kg
> guthrie
> ...


.....Free Shayne!.....;-)


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

what ever happened to the White Knight?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> what ever happened to the White Knight?


He's still around but thankfully not here ;-)


----------



## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Alec Sparks. The boy has dog sense and isn't afraid to think outside the box.


----------



## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

Becky Mills said:


> Alec Sparks. The boy has dog sense and isn't afraid to think outside the box.


Yes! I really miss Alec's contributions on here. He always has something interesting, well thought out, and sensible to say.


----------



## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> .....Free Shayne!.....;-)


​from his wife?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> JusticeDog
> 
> I actually was waiting for someone to ask that. I like you and your posts and don't mean to talk down to you in any way.
> 
> ...


What most people never catch on too, is the clicker is not to fix training problems in the dog, its to fix training problems in the handler.

/Paul


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> .....Free Shayne!.....;-)


Wife and two kids have changed his life immeasurably and forever. But, where are Joe S and Lisa Van Loo?


----------



## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> What most people never catch on too, is the clicker is not to fix training problems in the dog, its to fix training problems in the handler.
> 
> /Paul


Problem is I start drooling every time I hear one.


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Wife and two kids have changed his life immeasurably and forever. But, where are Joe S and Lisa Vanloo?


Joe dropped us cause he's getting certified smarter - something about pursuing some more knowledge - he did drop in for a brief post about 4-6 months ago - he was among the more knowledgable on POTUS on stuff many would rather not know about. 

When was Lisa's last post?


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

To a certain extent there is kind of a morbid finality to some of these posts. Spring is near and the lights will come back on. 

Time to lighten up regards, Jim









*I have found that doing this.....*









*produces results (or not).*


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Yep.
> And, I wonder why some just assume, that has never been tried. Years ago.
> Tried, and rejected. *Fail*.



In your estimation was that failure a function of clicker training in general, in that it just does not work ? Or is it that you are saying one cannot couple the praise tone with the clicker at any distance ? Or are you saying the failure was a functiun of the distance, and that long distanse "clicker training" specificly does not work ?

BTW who tried it, with how many dogs, for how long ?

john


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I was just looking down below on the main page and found this very interesting statistic:



> *"Most users ever online was 496, Today at 04:28 PM"*


The past record was during a National.

Chris


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I was just looking down below on the main page and found this very interesting statistic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chris did I win a prize I was #496


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> Chris did I win a prize I was #496


Hi Scott,

You would have, yes. But lacking punctuation, the sentence is confusing. 

Your consolation prize is free admission to RTF for at least one year....maybe longer! 

Hahahahaha! 

Probably not enough "smackdown" for some. But a question is a question. It ends with one of these:


> ?


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I was just looking down below on the main page and found this very interesting statistic:
> 
> *"Most users ever online was 496, Today at 04:28 PM"*
> 
> The past record was during a National.


And all waiting with bated cyberbreath for Fallon and Ben Franklin's announcement of their successful collaboration on the electric clicker.

MG


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> You would have, yes. But lacking punctuation, the sentence is confusing.
> 
> ...


Man this place is getting really tough now we have to have proper punctuation to win anything any thing on here!


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> Man this place is getting really tough now we have to have proper punctuation to win anything any thing on here!


That was absolutely perfect punctuation!

Please PM me your mailing address and watch the mailbox. 

Chris


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> Man this place is getting really tough now we have to have proper punctuation to win anything any thing on here!





Chris Atkinson said:


> That was absolutely perfect punctuation!
> 
> Please PM me your mailing address and watch the mailbox.
> 
> Chris



Hmmmmm. Hey Chris....I take it you were never an English teacher. LOL (I wasn't either.)

(You might want to read his sentence again.) 

J/K


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I was just looking down below on the main page and found this very interesting statistic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Id say that would have to be viewed in a "Positive only" way


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Scott Parker said:


> Man, this place is getting really tough. Now we have to have proper punctuation to win anything any thing on here!


There, fixed it for you.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Eastern central or western???


Chris Atkinson said:


> I was just looking down below on the main page and found this very interesting statistic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Eastern central or western???


Good question, My profile is set to Central time.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Do I get a prize?  How about EVERYBODY gets a prize? The way of the world ya know!


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Golddogs said:


> There, fixed it for you.


anything any thing


----------



## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Hey Tim, please empty your PM box. Some of your wimmin are trying to get in touch with you.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Becky Mills said:


> Hey Tim, please empty your PM box. Some of your wimmin are trying to get in touch with you.


Oh boy, I love me some pms.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Becky Mills said:


> Hey Tim, please empty your PM box. Some of your wimmin are trying to get in touch with you.



Yeah, I left you a gift in the Lock your dog box thread and it's over there going to waste! Break out some Keystone LIght first.


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris after reading 15 pages I have come to the conclusion. RTF is in the "State of Confusion". LOL. Sure am glad you are our "Janitor'. Thanks my friend......Otey


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Yeah, I left you a gift in the Lock your dog box thread and it's over there going to waste! Break out some Keystone LIght first.


Oh my.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Yeah, I left you a gift in the Lock your dog box thread and it's over there going to waste! Break out some Keystone LIght first.


 When I was a commercial fisherwoman, I was in the bar and had a 9/16" wrench ( for the shackles on the scallop gear) in my pocket , along with an OB tampon. Half assed drunk , I pulled both out of my pocket and found that the open end of the wrench fit the tampon perfectly! " HA", I announce to the bar, "a 9/16th " box wrench"


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

duk4me said:


> Oh my.



Yeah, SEE, that was like two days ago!


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bridget Bodine said:


> When I was a commercial fisherwoman, I was in the bar and had a 9/16" wrench ( for the shackles on the scallop gear) in my pocket , along with an OB tampon. Half assed drunk , I pulled both out of my pocket and found that the open end of the wrench fit the tampon perfectly! " HA", I announce to the bar, "a 9/16th " box wrench"


Oh My My My.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Well, now that the board is talking about Westminster, beavers, and boxes--I'm going to have to change my vote to "status quo." For February, that is.

Edit: And I just read a training thread. Whoo-hooo! RTF is back.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Bridget Bodine said:


> When I was a commercial fisherwoman, I was in the bar and had a 9/16" wrench ( for the shackles on the scallop gear) in my pocket , along with an OB tampon. Half assed drunk , I pulled both out of my pocket and found that the open end of the wrench fit the tampon perfectly! " HA", I announce to the bar, "a 9/16th " box wrench"


You Soooooo WIN, Bridget!!!!


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Oh My My My.


 You can use it to get into Jen's locked box...


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Bridget Bodine said:


> You can use it to get into Jen's locked box...



HeHeHeHe. That was funny! But not actually true.. It takes a very special tool and it's not a wrench...

I'm about to get banned, aren't I?


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

So now we have Ken's nipple wench, Bridget's box wrench, and Jen's mostly locked box........for the second time I am at a loss for words.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> HeHeHeHe. That was funny! But not actually true.. It takes a very special tool and it's not a wrench...
> 
> I'm about to get banned, aren't I?


 Betcha these guys thought all the fun girls left!


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Jennifer Henion

Bridget Bodine


You girls are awfully naughty. And yesterday was Ash Wednesday, a Holy Day.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> HeHeHeHe. That was funny! But not actually true.. It takes a very special tool and it's not a wrench...
> 
> I'm about to get banned, aren't I?


??? clicker?


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> ??? clicker?



Pluck your magic twanger, Froggy.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

What are two doing up this late?! This is adult talk time. Go to bed!


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> What are two doing up this late?! This is adult talk time. Go to bed!


I've got to do laundry.


----------



## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

gdgnyc said:


> Jennifer Henion
> 
> Bridget Bodine
> 
> ...


Hey you leave those girls alone, wees like naughty girls....it's just startin to get good


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Jennifer Henion said:


> HeHeHeHe. That was funny! But not actually true.. It takes a very special tool and it's not a wrench...
> 
> I'm about to get banned, aren't I?


Or promoted!!


----------



## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

Pals said:


> And it ended with an apology for asking a legitimate question.
> 
> There is nothing wrong asking for clarification/qualifications of someone offering advice, that allows those asking questions to weed out the BS. AND there is nothing wrong with a good old smackdown. *I've been on the receiving end of an RTF smackdown and I rightly deserved it*, I learned a lesson to shut up and listen to those that have danced the dance, not just turned on the radio and sang along.


x2!! Sometimes that's what it takes to let someone know that they are coming off as a jack a** because something they said came off wrong. This affords said jack a** the opportunity to correct their statement. I'm a better internet person for it.....


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> When I was a commercial fisherwoman, I was in the bar and had a 9/16" wrench ( for the shackles on the scallop gear) in my pocket , along with an OB tampon. Half assed drunk , I pulled both out of my pocket and found that the open end of the wrench fit the tampon perfectly! " HA", I announce to the bar, "a 9/16th " box wrench"


Was that you??????:shock:


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

duk4me said:


> Oh boy, I love me some pms.


Positive or negative!


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I don't remember.....
those were the days when I drank Comfortable Jacks ( a shot I made up Southern Comfort /Jack daniels and chased em with Jack and coke. Thank the LORD I don't have an addictive personality



road kill said:


> Was that you??????:shock:


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I don't remember.....
> those were the days when I drank Comfortable Jacks ( a shot I made up Southern Comfort /Jack daniels and chased em with Jack and coke. Thank the LORD I don't have an addictive personality


I imagine that made for a warm cozy feeling!

Me.....if I want sody I drink sody, if I want Whisky.....well, you know!


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

duk4me said:


> Oh boy, I love me some pms.


Tim are you just a sadist or did you possibly leave out an apostrophe?

I sometimes enjoy PM's; however my dealings with PMS are generally not so pleasant


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

mjh345 said:


> Tim are you just a sadist or did you possibly leave out an apostrophe?
> 
> I sometimes enjoy PM's; however my dealings with PMS are generally not so pleasant


Now that is funny!


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

duk4me said:


> anything any thing


Alright Tim when I typed that it was 6 in the morning and my ride was waiting for me to take me to the airport. I just now got home from the frozen north.


----------



## Elliott Labradors (May 19, 2009)

Posted on wrong thread..........sorry.


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> That was absolutely perfect punctuation!
> 
> Please PM me your mailing address and watch the mailbox.
> 
> Chris


Chris your PM box is full.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

mjh345 said:


> Tim are you just a sadist or did you possibly leave out an apostrophe?
> 
> I sometimes enjoy PM's; however my dealings with PMS are generally not so pleasant


Sadist. I knew someone would catch it


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Tim and Marc, aren't you both getting your perversions mixed??? I believe if Tim enjoys dealing with PMS that would make him a masochist, not a sadist. Now if he is sending the woman suffering from PMS to hang with Marc, he could be behaving in a sadistic manner.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Hey. People. 

This thread was supposed to be about _neurosis _and _seasonal affective disorder. _


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

luvalab said:


> Hey. People.
> 
> This thread was supposed to be about _neurosis _and _seasonal affective disorder. _


Where do you think gobbledygook came from, my impression more than a decade ago of what happens to any thread which goes beyond 2 pages


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

EdA said:


> Where do you think gobbledygook came from, my impression more than a decade ago of what happens to any thread which goes beyond 2 pages


Well, I did call it GDG. I suppose I should be happy it's reached its ultimate destiny.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

EdA said:


> Where do you think gobbledygook came from, my impression more than a decade ago of what happens to any thread which goes beyond 2 pages


My hero. Dr. Ed. I am so proud that I continue to validate your hypothesis.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

EdA said:


> Where do you think gobbledygook came from, my impression more than a decade ago of what happens to any thread which goes beyond 2 pages


Hey. Wait a second.

_Is EdA the originator of GDG? How did I not know this?_

Once a newbie, always a newbie...


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

luvalab said:


> Hey. Wait a second.
> 
> _Is EdA the originator of GDG? How did I not know this?_
> 
> Once a newbie, always a newbie...


Dr. Ed accepts full responsibility for introducing gobbledygook to the forum, previously it was a word that was not a part of the RTF lexicon!


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

EdA said:


> Dr. Ed accepts full responsibility for introducing gobbledygook to the forum, previously it was a word that was not a part of the RTF lexicon!


Wow. Just wow. 

True genius crosses disciplines.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

What is the big deal?  It's just another word!

gob·ble·dy·**** - /ˈgäbəldēˌgo͝ok/

Noun: Language that is meaningless or is made unintelligible by excessive use of abstruse technical terms;* nonsense*.

Synonyms:gibberish


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

john fallon said:


> What is the big deal?  It's just another word!
> 
> gob·ble·dy·**** - /ˈgäbəldēˌgo͝ok/
> 
> ...


Hm. That's actually really interesting to think about. 

I suppose it's a big deal because because RTF seems to have its own lexicon. Words here have meanings, and then those words have layers of meanings--histories, etymologies (some obscure), implications, connotations... GDG is an acronym for "gobbledygook," but it's also GDG. 

GDG and RTF are special.

"Dr. ED--Contributor to the lexicon. All Hail."


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

luvalab said:


> Hm. That's actually really interesting to think about.
> 
> I suppose it's a big deal because because RTF seems to have its own lexicon. Words here have meanings, and then those words have layers of meanings--histories, etymologies (some obscure), implications, connotations... GDG is an acronym for "gobbledygook," but it's also GDG.
> 
> ...


He's just jealous he didn't think of it first.:razz:


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

john fallon said:


> What is the big deal?  It's just another word!
> 
> gob·ble·dy·**** - /ˈgäbəldēˌgo͝ok/
> 
> ...



I detect a slight case of GDG envy? Did you get along with your mother?


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

duk4me said:


> He's just jealous he didn't think of it first.:razz:



Well, _yeah....

_hehehehehehehehehehe.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

duk4me said:


> He's just jealous *he didn't think of it first*.:razz:


That makes it two of us who didn't............

john


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

john fallon said:


> That makes it two of us who didn't............
> 
> john


Yep, but only one of us is jealous about.;-)


----------



## Corey Capozzi (Jan 15, 2012)

This thread proves the issue with RTF. No one can stay on topic, either on a thread or when they post a topic. Sucks for us newbies when all the vets of this site have pissing contest over whos opinoin is better. As another poster stated the gobblygook and political correctness of this site is ridic. Dont get me wrong there is still A LOT of good info on this site when you weed out the people looking to brag or boast.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Corey Capozzi said:


> This thread proves the issue with RTF. No one can stay on topic, either on a thread or when they post a topic.


Not a new phenomenon, it has been that way since RTF was in it's infancy, fortunately participation is voluntary.


----------



## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> Not a new phenomenon, it has been that way since THE INTERNET was in it's infancy, fortunately participation is voluntary.


Fixed it for ya


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

EdA said:


> Not a new phenomenon, it has been that way since RTF was in it's infancy, *fortunately participation is voluntary*.


That doesn't seem to be true for me, I seem to be addicted to RTF.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Corey Capozzi said:


> This thread proves the issue with RTF. No one can stay on topic, either on a thread or when they post a topic. Sucks for us newbies when all the vets of this site have pissing contest over whos opinoin is better. As another poster stated the gobblygook and political correctness of this site is ridic. Dont get me wrong there is still A LOT of good info on this site when you weed out the people looking to brag or boast.


Corey your dog has big feet.

Actually there is an ignore function that is readibly accessible to all of us if you find someones post useless to you.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Corey Capozzi said:


> This thread proves the issue with RTF. No one can stay on topic, either on a thread or when they post a topic. Sucks for us newbies when all the vets of this site have pissing contest over whos opinoin is better. As another poster stated the gobblygook and political correctness of this site is ridic. Dont get me wrong there is still A LOT of good info on this site when you weed out the people looking to brag or boast.


OK, you are a newbie. If you have a question about something about your own training just start a thread on it. Take the advice you get that seems like good advice. I have already chosen several people whose advice I like. I have even had phone conversations with people to discuss training.

A newbie should be able to say he really needs advice and then get it on this forum. When your thread falls apart then stop reading it. But you will have gotten good info by then.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> OK, you are a newbie. If you have a question about something about your own training just start a thread on it. Take the advice you get that seems like good advice. I have already chosen several people whose advice I like. I have even had phone conversations with people to discuss training.
> 
> A newbie should be able to say he really needs advice and then get it on this forum. When your thread falls apart then stop reading it. But you will have gotten good info by then.


Don't forget the search function, newbies have been crucified for posting a question without throughly researching the subject before posting the question.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Actually John it is about time for a "What program should I use thread";-)


----------



## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Corey Capozzi said:


> This thread proves the issue with RTF. No one can stay on topic, either on a thread or when they post a topic. Sucks for us newbies when all the vets of this site have pissing contest over whos opinoin is better. As another poster stated the gobblygook and political correctness of this site is ridic. Dont get me wrong there is still A LOT of good info on this site when you weed out the people looking to brag or boast.


I find that the complexion of RTF pretty much mirrors the real (dog training) world.

Some are yack yack yack about what they ate for lunch, some insist I train my dog their way, some are stoic, some crack me up...


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Corey Capozzi said:


> This thread proves the issue with RTF. No one can stay on topic, either on a thread or when they post a topic. Sucks for us newbies when all the vets of this site have pissing contest over whos opinoin is better. As another poster stated the gobblygook and political correctness of this site is ridic. Dont get me wrong there is still A LOT of good info on this site when you weed out the people looking to brag or boast.


Corey your not a newbie you've been on here for a year now you should be one of the best trainers in the world by now after soaking in all the dog training knowledge on here, if your not then maybe there's no hope for you.


----------



## Corey Capozzi (Jan 15, 2012)

Scott Parker said:


> Corey your not a newbie you've been on here for a year now you should be one of the best trainers in the world by now after soaking in all the dog training knowledge on here, if your not then maybe there's no hope for you.


HAHAHAHAHA. I like your humor. Being serious. To everyone else, i do post on here i do ask question i do try to be invovled, ask chris. Time and time again the keyboard warriors come out to a retriever training forum and try to be badasses. You can all comment and say " there is an ignore button" or this site is voluntairy, well we can see who got offended by my comment. Maybe yall are the issue? actually no chance. There are a TON of great people on here and i realize this is the internet. to everyone who got butt hurt about my comment, sorry, maybe if you got offended you are the problem.


----------



## Corey Capozzi (Jan 15, 2012)

Ive done all of that. I was pointing out the issue with RTF and its that people cannot stay on topic. I didnt say RTF sucked or isnt helpful all i said was A) people tend to not be able to stay on topic B) people have pissing contest. 


So y'all can call down.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Actually John it is about time for a "What program should I use thread";-)


 I actually don't find that a bad question---different breeds, different temperaments, etc.

And for the search function just try finding heeling stick when you spell it healing stick. Try checkdown drills, see what you get.

I sure as heck don't use it well.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Corey Capozzi said:


> HAHAHAHAHA. I like your humor. Being serious. To everyone else, i do post on here i do ask question i do try to be invovled, ask chris. Time and time again the keyboard warriors come out to a retriever training forum and try to be badasses. You can all comment and say " there is an ignore button" or this site is voluntairy, well we can see who got offended by my comment. Maybe yall are the issue? actually no chance. There are a TON of great people on here and i realize this is the internet. to everyone who got butt hurt about my comment, sorry, maybe if you got offended you are the problem.


I can assure you I didn't get offended and my butt don't hurt. I could be a problem though. lol Your dog still has big feet.:razz:


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## Corey Capozzi (Jan 15, 2012)

duk4me said:


> I can assure you I didn't get offended and my butt don't hurt. I could be a problem though. lol Your dog still has big feet.:razz:


He does have big feet. He is a big boy!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

gdgnyc said:


> I actually don't find that a bad question---different breeds, different temperaments, etc.
> 
> And for the search function just try finding heeling stick when you spell it healing stick. Try checkdown drills, see what you get.
> 
> I sure as heck don't use it well.


Shucks gdnyc you're a scientist. I know you can spell better than that.:razz: I will try checkdown drills just for kicks though.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

duk4me said:


> Shucks gdnyc you're a scientist. I know you can spell better than that.:razz: I will try checkdown drills just for kicks though.


And I thought *I* was bored.

My favorite is the pure bread puppy.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

That's not pure bread. 
It has hidden chocolate.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Corey Capozzi said:


> This thread proves the issue with RTF. No one can stay on topic, either on a thread or when they post a topic. Sucks for us newbies when all the vets of this site have pissing contest over whos opinoin is better. As another poster stated the gobblygook and political correctness of this site is ridic. Dont get me wrong there is still A LOT of good info on this site when you weed out the people looking to brag or boast.


BTW this is a GDG thread and has consistently stayed GDG therefore this is the first thread on RTF that has never gone off topic. So therefore Corey you have gone off topic on a GDG thread. Which means you have ruined the first perfect RTF thread. Congratulations, you are now an RTF icon for being the first person to derail a GDG thread.:razz:


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Shucks gdnyc you're a scientist. I know you can spell better than that.:razz: I will try checkdown drills just for kicks though.



You are funny. I have always spelled it correctly but know that it is easily misspelled.


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