# Head Swinging



## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

One of suggestions given for head swinging is to say "sit" with a correction (swat or nick) then send the dog for the mark. The question I have is this: Should you bring the dog's attention back to the mark before sending the dog?


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Only do singles. Dog is head swinging looking for the next mark. Yes bring attention back before send. Tell pup to "find your mark" and when looking send. I have never heard of telling dog sit with correction for head swinging.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Paul Johnson said:


> One of suggestions given for head swinging is to say "sit" with a correction (swat or nick) then send the dog for the mark. The question I have is this: Should you bring the dog's attention back to the mark before sending the dog?


I believe this is a poor suggestion for the following reasons. What forms a dog's performance in the field is expectations. If he expects a bird to fall when cued "Mark", for example, he will tend to fix on a direction because he expects it. If he is consistently cued "Dead bird" just prior to being sent on blind retrieves, he will come to expect the retrieve to be a blind, and will ready himself due to that expectation.

If he comes to expect a swat or a nick when marks go up, you may see behaviors far from what you had hoped. If you want him to stop head swinging on multiples, singles can help. I run many more singles than multiples as a normal course of maintenance anyway. But that may only be a partial fix if your dog has acquired a strong head-swinging habit. He needs to expect good/rewarding things to happen with each mark, not bad things.

Do you have a serious problem with your dog right now?

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Just do singles and make him focus on the bird down. Cue him to "watch" or "mark" if he takes his eyes off the bird. Send him when he is totally committed.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Lots of singles worked for me.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

I am told by a pro friend that I created head swinging in the wagon wheel exercise. I was moving heel and here back and forth by several dummies instead of going sequentially in one direction and then the other. Seemed to fix it in a couple of WW sessions. Time will tell but she is a very cooperative CLF who catches on much faster than I do.


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## Pigpen (Nov 23, 2008)

Singles and varied lengths of time before send has helped me.


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## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

Evan said:


> I believe this is a poor suggestion for the following reasons. What forms a dog's performance in the field is expectations. If he expects a bird to fall when cued "Mark", for example, he will tend to fix on a direction because he expects it. If he is consistently cued "Dead bird" just prior to being sent on blind retrieves, he will come to expect the retrieve to be a blind, and will ready himself due to that expectation.
> 
> If he comes to expect a swat or a nick when marks go up, you may see behaviors far from what you had hoped. If you want him to stop head swinging on multiples, singles can help. I run many more singles than multiples as a normal course of maintenance anyway. But that may only be a partial fix if your dog has acquired a strong head-swinging habit. He needs to expect good/rewarding things to happen with each mark, not bad things.
> 
> ...


Evan,

Thank you for your insight.

In answer to your question, yes for my 2 year old and controlable for my 5 and 7 year old.

For my older dogs, I probable do singles 25% of the time, combinations 50% of the time and straight multiples 25% of the time. In addition, I only do singles before a trial. These two dogs are competitive in the major stakes.

As for my younger dog, she needs multiples to teach concepts such as retired guns and secondary selection. On the other hand, she will head swing on any setup after she has run just one multiple. This is quite fustrating since I am trying to get her ready for the qual. The problem is not a result of training or running her in the derby. I did not train for or run her in the derby becasue she is a early spring puppy and would not have been competitive durning our trial season.


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## C Fontenot (Mar 23, 2005)

When throwing multiples.. i do doubles, singles and very few triples for all dogs. If on a multiple mark, the dogs head swings looking for another mark because it sees the other stations, I will tell them here, use body language/ hand and make them refocus on the mark thrown. When they have focused on the thrown mark for 5 seconds, I will then move them to the next mark. I do use a sit/ nick if they continue and will not focus on the thrown mark. If you have a problem with sit, then you need to throw only singles.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

In over a year of training with a pro I bet my dog has not seen a dozen double marks in training and safe to say never a triple in training. Head swinging has never been a issue,and I dont recall any dogs that have spent any considerable time there having head swinging issues.


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## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

My original post asked a specific question which had nothing to do with singles.

While I do not know whether those of you that suggest just running singles run hunt tests or field trials, I do know that just doing singles is not the answer. In order to be competitive in the field trials, I need to teach the dogs concepts such as a hip pockets, off-the-heals, flower pots, in-line guns, converging marks, and retired guns. All of these concepts require multiple marks. The dogs also need multiple marks to increase memory time.

In fact, there are a number of things you can do to stop head swinging. My question was about how to impliment just one of the possible solutions. On the other hand, Evan did make a good argument against using this particular solution.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

I was actually just going to bring this topic up, I'm glad someone did as well.

I have a 4 yr old dog that I've mainly trained myself that was a MH at age 3 and MN qualified the same year. We then moved in to field trials and quals with a 3rd and a handfull of RJ's and Jams. We've ran a couple Am's and have made it into the 3rd series a couple of times.

Background on this dog, he's a super high drive and very intense dog, no focus issues and an exceptional marking dog. We run a lot of singles but now with more advanced training and teaching much tighter marking concepts with retired marks, the head swinging has gotten to be a serious problem of drastic anticipation of the next mark to be thrown where in very tight concepts, he'll focus on the que'd first bird and swing by the time the bird hits the top of the arch. I've dabbled with some pressure methods on headswings to return him to focus on the first bird thrown, however probably not enough to cause issues as Evan has mentioned and I haven't applied enough pressure to cause correction anticipation.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Paul Johnson said:


> My original post asked a specific question which had nothing to do with singles.
> 
> While I do not know whether those of you that suggest just running singles run hunt tests or field trials, I do know that just doing singles is not the answer. In order to be competitive in the field trials, I need to teach the dogs concepts such as a hip pockets, off-the-heals, flower pots, in-line guns, converging marks, and retired guns. All of these concepts require multiple marks. The dogs also need multiple marks to increase memory time.
> 
> In fact, there are a number of things you can do to stop head swinging. My question was about how to impliment just one of the possible solutions. On the other hand, Evan did make a good argument against using this particular solution.


All of those concepts you mentioned _*do not require multiple marks *_but are _*best learned as singles off of multiple guns.*_ 

Most successful pros and amatures I know (meaning the ones who regularly win and place in Open All Age Field Trial Stakes) will do_* 60 to 90% singles off multiple guns in training *_whether they're doing hip pockets, flower pots, in line concepts, under the arcs, converging mark, check down birds, retired guns, down the shore marks or whatever. This includes water and land. 

Depending on what concept you're teaching usually (but not always) the long gun (*or key bird*), often retired, is shot first as a single so that the dog learns to stay focused on it and _*doesn't head swing to the shorter and more enticing marks*_. After he has the long mark you can then shoot the other guns as singles or a double if your dog is ready for this and not head swinging. You can change the order of guns after the dog has learned to stay focused on one mark. 

Shorter retired check down birds (the *key bird* in these set ups) are the most notable exception to the above in that you _could_ shoot that one first as a single and then the other longer guns after. All of this depends on where your dog is at in it's training and what it needs from the session.

_*Just doing singles off multiple gun stations IS THE ANSWER...................*_shooting these concepts as complete set ups is good to test your dog...........not train it and many good trainers save the testing part till the weekend.

Anyway.............too much information no doubt..........take it or leave it................Good luck.......


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## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

labguy said:


> All of those concepts you mentioned _*do not require multiple marks *_but are _*best learned as singles off of multiple guns.*_
> 
> Most successful pros and amatures I know (meaning the ones who regularly win and place in Open All Age Field Trial Stakes) will do_* 60 to 90% singles off multiple guns in training *_whether they're doing hip pockets, flower pots, in line concepts, under the arcs, converging mark, check down birds, retired guns, down the shore marks or whatever. This includes water and land.
> 
> ...


Clearly the pro's that I know do not know anything. And, my wins and places in all-age stakes must be a figment of my imagination. And, since I run singles 25% of the time and I run combinations which include a singles 50% of the time, my dogs must not be getting any singles. And, I must be really uneducated since I can only name more than a dozen ways to control or prevent head swinging.

I DID NOT ASK HOW TO CORRECT OR CONTROL HEAD SWINGING!

My original question was about implimenting just one of the ways (not singles) to correct head swinging.

Since everyone on this thread is a expert and they all just know one way to control head swinging I will not waste my time reading any more posts.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

In case you cant resist and come back to the thread. 


Throw more singles.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Paul Johnson said:


> One of suggestions given for head swinging is to say "sit" with a correction (swat or nick) then send the dog for the mark. The question I have is this: Should you bring the dog's attention back to the mark before sending the dog?


If you don't cause this:*SWINGING* Then *CORRECTION* isn't a problem now is it... And by the way, why would you send the dog after a correction attempt with it looking somewhere else...


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Duckquilizer said:


> If you don't cause this:*SWINGING* Then *CORRECTION* isn't a problem now is it... And by the way, why would you send the dog after a correction attempt with it looking somewhere else...


Good point. Wait until the dog is committed to that mark, then send or if you are doing triples don't signal for the next bird until you are sure he has "watched" the mark and not swung his head to another station. Dog should remain seated during the time and have very little movement at the line. Makes it easier. He can concentrate better. IMO


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

So to sum it up if you don't get the answer you want then all answers are no good,
maybe should try this -

run only quads, then only burn on high for head swinging along with stick pressure followed by using a pinch collar to snap his head to the mark you want him to focus on and send him no matter which way he is looking.

Hope this helps 

your question is like someone asking why their dog keeps dropping ducks, but you refuse to force fetch and don't want to even here about force fetch you just want answers to why your dog keeps dropping birds.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Paul
The simple answer to your question is yes, you should refocus the dog before sending. But there are larger issues that need to be addressed.
For those who are not so succesful as you I would like to offer the following suggestions.
Most trainers consider head swinging a problem but the truth of the matter is that head swinging is an indicator of poor handling and/or incomplete training. Correcting it with an e collar is a mistake because the reason the dog does it is due to poor understanding rather than disobedience.
The first mistake trainers make is allowing the dog to heel too far forward, placing the handler so far back that the dog cannot see the handler’s legs with his peripheral vision. If he can’t see you then he can’t receive guidance or cues on where and how far to move other than your voice which lacks precision. Also, when he is this far forward he thinks he is leading the dance and will frequently develop the attitude that he can decide which direction he will go rather than looking to you for guidance.
The solution starts with heeling the dog so his ear is next to the seam of your pants and you are standing with your right foot forward. The dog can now see your right leg. The amount that you move that leg tells the dog how far to move left or right when you command “here” or “heel”.
The wagon wheel is the first place you go to practice this exercise using enough bumpers to tempt the dog to look at any bumper other than the one you have him aimed at. The tool of choice is the pinch collar and short leash. When he looks away from your line, gently tug on the pinch collar to guide his attention back where you want it. When he can hold his attention on the proper bumper for six or eight seconds,(no longer) send him to retrieve.
Next. Take this to the field. Dogs don’t head swing when there is only one gun in the field so run single marks off multiple guns. Every time he looks at any gun other than the one you have him lined on, correct with the pinch collar and the appropriate command “here” or “heel”. NOTE: Don’t yank him around. Small tugs with your left hand as low as you can get it are the key. Make him look at the mark after it is down for six to eight seconds before sending.
Heel does not mean “walk at my side”. Heel should mean “you are being aimed” and he should only move when you move.


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

If dog has been schooled in multiples and has been taught to stay focused on fall until moved to next gun by handler.....then can use SIT-stick correction if dog swings off bird while in air. If swings after bird hits ground then will say sit and push/pull back to first bird. May or may not send on that bird as single. Have not heard of using collar correction.

This correction sequence is per notes made at several Lardy seminars. Also Lardy has estimated in past that his training is 25% singles/75% multiples or single ,double combos.

Keep in mind that just because I made it into notes doesn't make it right!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Bill Billups said:


> If dog has been schooled in multiples and has been taught to stay focused on fall until moved to next gun by handler.....


...and then you run a few trials! Then that well trained youngster gets so gassed about birds, loose on the line, acting out in the holding blind, and head-swinging with the best of them!  Little fixes seem to work at home. Then at the next trial Frankenstein is back! And then?

Evan


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

Evan said:


> ...and then you run a few trials! Then that well trained youngster gets so gassed about birds, loose on the line, acting out in the holding blind, and head-swinging with the best of them!  Little fixes seem to work at home. Then at the next trial Frankenstein is back! And then?
> 
> Evan


Obviously if he's headswinging in training and requiring corrections for it then he should not be running trials. Most trial setups encourage headswinging with a short flyer often tight to a long memory bird.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Paul Johnson said:


> Clearly the pro's that I know do not know anything. And, my wins and places in all-age stakes must be a figment of my imagination. And, since I run singles 25% of the time and I run combinations which include a singles 50% of the time, my dogs must not be getting any singles. And, I must be really uneducated since I can only name more than a dozen ways to control or prevent head swinging.
> 
> I DID NOT ASK HOW TO CORRECT OR CONTROL HEAD SWINGING!
> 
> ...


Nice post...................when your cup is already full, adding more just spills over the top.

Good luck with your dog..............he's going to need it having you beside him.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Still puzzled as to how you are winning AA stakes if you send your dog when he is watching blue birds fly through the sky.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> Paul
> The simple answer to your question is yes, you should refocus the dog before sending. But there are larger issues that need to be addressed.
> For those who are not so succesful as you I would like to offer the following suggestions.
> Most trainers consider head swinging a problem but the truth of the matter is that head swinging is an indicator of poor handling and/or incomplete training. Correcting it with an e collar is a mistake because the reason the dog does it is due to poor understanding rather than disobedience.
> ...


This is a good post with very solid advice on how to keep a dog focused................even though at one point it advocates singles off of multiple guns............too bad Pauls not reading this thread anymore...............

Seriously Lynn.................thanks for the thoughtful input.............. Good post.........


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

Paul Johnson said:


> My original post asked a specific question which had nothing to do with singles.
> 
> While I do not know whether those of you that suggest just running singles run hunt tests or field trials, I do know that just doing singles is not the answer. In order to be competitive in the field trials, I need to teach the dogs concepts such as a hip pockets, off-the-heals, flower pots, in-line guns, converging marks, and retired guns. All of these concepts require multiple marks. The dogs also need multiple marks to increase memory time.
> 
> In fact, there are a number of things you can do to stop head swinging. My question was about how to impliment just one of the possible solutions. On the other hand, Evan did make a good argument against using this particular solution.


You can teach all of these concepts by doing singles. Set up the concept and run as singles. You can teach memory by throwing a mark then swing the dog to run a blind then run the memory mark. Singles allow the H/S to concnetreate on the bird. To fix H/S you may want to do the following:
1. Long singles, 300 - 400 yrds. As the dog gets better increase the difficulty with the use of cover etc.
2. Ring of singles - 75 - 200 yds. 1 gunner tosses a bird. Once the dog gets it the G walks in an arc 45 paces and throws again. Repeat for 5 throws all in a different location. 
3. Set up concepts, triples, tight quads and run as singles. 

The idea is to get the dog to concentrate on the bird. Do this without creating pressure. If the dog moves his head or looks away or swings then simply send the dog. Now's he's in a pickle. If he doesn't go then he gets a burn up. If he goes in a different direction well that makes for another correction. If he does it right he gets praise.

When you shoot the bird don't send until the count of three. I forgot to mention business like fun bumpers. That's where you toss the bird, count to 3, step up count to 3, drop your hand count to 3 then send the dog. This cadence will also help to solve the problem. 

Good luck


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Some very useful information Paul may not be reading but I sure enjoyed the posts


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

To answer the question you asked, if I corrected a dog for headswinging, I would certainly refocus the dog on the bird he swings off of and maybe even send him on that bird as a single.

And for all the internet pros who posted above, I know of at least one very successful "A" list pro that does almost no singles.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Charles ,what are his methods leading up to doing almost no singles?and if a dog begins to head swing does he continue to run multiple marks or does he revisit singles to stop the head swinging and regain focus on the mark at hand?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Paul Johnson said:


> One of suggestions given for head swinging is to say "sit" with a correction (swat or nick) then send the dog for the mark. The question I have is this: Should you bring the dog's attention back to the mark before sending the dog?


The simple answer is YES! Otherwise you're rewarding and re-enforcing the wrong behavior.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)




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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Bill Billups said:


> Obviously if he's headswinging in training and requiring corrections for it then he should not be running trials. Most trial setups encourage headswinging with a short flyer often tight to a long memory bird.


I understand what you're saying, Bill. But I mentioned ...


Evan said:


> Little fixes seem to work at home.


That would mean whatever you did at home appeared to work. Then you went to another trial and the monster reemerged. What maintenance work would you do that would go beyond the usual suggestions of "Lots of singles" and "Singles in multiple set-ups"?

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jonathan McClendon said:


> I don't think it matters whether you *make him focus *on the long bird again after the swing, because you are trying to correct the dog by him.... not getting the short birds.


We're getting there! It's not "making him focus" that will give you a long term solution. It's arranging his work regimen in such a way that we wants to focus on each mark.

Evan


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

Evan said:


> I understand what you're saying, Bill. But I mentioned ...That would mean whatever you did at home appeared to work. Then you went to another trial and the monster reemerged. What maintenance work would you do that would go beyond the usual suggestions of "Lots of singles" and "Singles in multiple set-ups"?
> 
> Evan


First of all I am no expert but I'll give it a try. I don't see any one quick fix or solution to headswinging. Like most bad habits its best avoided but can be brought up in a controlled tempting situation in training to give an opportunity for correction.

For the young dog. Avoid too many multiples. Avoid tight setups. Avoid close flyers and mostly put it long and not tight to another gun. You can do double throws on the long gun to keep his attention there before YOU move him to the next bird. If he's watching birds well then you can try a derby. If he headswings too much scratch him for the next one.

For the older dog that knows better. Mix in a few singles but you may need to tempt him to headswing so you can give him a correction in training. Put him heeled on the side of a short flyer. Throw long bird and when he headswings do SIT STICK and have gunner throw another bird and make him wait and then move him to flyer and shoot bird. He doesn't get flyer unless he watches long bird. If he's headswinging in training he doesn't need to be running trials.

Headswinging is basically unsteadiness. Treat it just like a violation of SIT. Dog doesn't gets birds unless he sits still and watches them.


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## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

JTS said:


> Well if you know so many Pro's why are you asking the masses for help on the internet???


Like most of the people on this thread, YOU DID NOT READ THE FIRST POST!!!

I did not ask for "HELP" I asked a specific question.

If you like most of the other people on the thread were in school, your answers would get an *F*.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

There may be 20 ways to counter and control head swinging....http://www.totalretriever.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemid=90 there could be at least 19 which aren`t simply advice to run singles
...and, 10 tips for short bird marking which you might also enjoy, in volume III!


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

Paul Johnson said:


> Like most of the people on this thread, YOU DID NOT READ THE FIRST POST!!!
> 
> I did not ask for "HELP" I asked a specific question.
> 
> ...


I thought I might re-post your question again for you so others won`t incur your wrath and vituperative comments. I wonder Paul could you have any logical reason for not bringing your dog`s attention back to the mark it swung from.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Singles, multi's, flyer's and what ever it takes. Not rocket sience!!!! . Learn "YOUR" dog and FIX. Head swing is man made.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Paul Johnson said:


> Like most of the people on this thread, YOU DID NOT READ THE FIRST POST!!!
> 
> I did not ask for "HELP" I asked a specific question.
> 
> If you like most of the other people on the thread were in school, your answers would get an *F*.


and if you was the teacher we'd all be head swinging after the lesson.**

Yes, *I* would bring the dogs attention back before sending dog.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Paul,
You can work on making the dog responsible for watching a mark fall (and nothing else period) until you tell it to do something else either by your movement to another gun or voice or send etc.
Here are a few thing you can do.
1) Walk away gunner. (there's a reason this is illegal at a field trail) 
Put out 3 gun stations in an inline (75, 100, 150 yards or whatever), chairs with white coats or stickmen, just one bird boy & bag o birds.
Birdboy starts at short gun and throws mark to outside. After bird lands birdboy grabs bag o birds and starts walking to middle gun. !!!
Your job after bird lands is to keep telling your dog no here, no here, no here when he looks at bird boy until he stares down that mark for a good 10 seconds.
Once he does send him to retrieve it. And do the same for the next mark, etc.

2) Fidgetty Birdboy
Set up a double not too tight but where both guns are visible to dog without moving too much.
Both guns up. Line dog up for first mark to be thrown and have that birdboy stand still. Have second birdboy, with a bumper in each hand, swing those badboys back and forth so dog sees them.
Your job is to talk to your dog and make him watch the first gun for several seconds without looking over to the birdboy swinging the bumpers. If dog watches long enough send him. (no need for first gun to throw a bumper, just send dog if he looked long enough without swinging to the 2nd gun movement.

3) Answer to you question is yes if your lesson for the day is to make the dog responsible for trucking to the first mark properly. But, what can happen is you end up in a no mans land situation that's hard to clearly correct for. Dogs will often split the distance between the mark they swung to and the one you send them for. Usually as no win. Better to work on various head swinging drills, that you can do with multiple guns


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Paul,

The answer to your question is. Depends on the dog...... 
What is your dog mentally. Hard ? Soft ? 
If you have an AA dog can it deal with being sent for a bird it is not looking at ? Leading then to let the hunt be the punishment.
maybe he should be paying attention and not making you refocus him once he has been corrected ? If I used a heeling stick for the correction should he not refocus himself ?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Nobody has mentioned slow down. A 10-15 count between birds and singles off multiple marks will help prevent this. Prevention is the best cure....

/Paul


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## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

blind ambition said:


> I thought I might re-post your question again for you so others won`t incur your wrath and vituperative comments. I wonder Paul could you have any logical reason for not bringing your dog`s attention back to the mark it swung from.


The reason I posted the question is that one pro suggested that you send the dog after it head swings then correct it for going in the wrong direction. Another pro suggested correcting the dog the moment it head swings then sending the dog. The probelm with the first suggestion is that dogs will soon learn to go toward the mark they swung off of therefore you have lost any opportunity to correct the dog. The problem with the second suggestion is that you have already corrected the dog so what has it learned if it heads out in the wrong direction.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Apparently you haven't paid either pro enough yet to get the best answer. :neutral:

Actually the problem with the first suggestion is your dog is not marking the first bird. No mark = no mark.
Problem with the second suggestion is a stick correction is not the best correction for this situation. A little more finesse could be used.
Instead of a stick, watch your dogs eyes and use a low bump on the collar when dog sneaks a peak. Don't say Sit or anything just bump. Say Good when he looks where you want.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Yes, you got lots of advice on how to _prevent _headswinging but your question was about the _mechanics of the correction_. 

This is what I have been taught and it works for me and the rest of the dogs I train with.

The dog is taught that "Sit" means a lot of things beyond "butt on ground". Among those things is "keep looking where you are looking". It can take a while for some dogs and is a life long maintenance item.

When setting the dog up of course, it is push/pull to get the dog looking at the right gun. When he locks on, it is "Sit". Like anything else, you move in small steps ... a couple seconds at first and increase to 10 seconds and more. As he gets better, you will add distractions like gunner moving or driving away after the throw, etc. again progressing in small steps. Eventually you will be _tempting_ the dog to headswing. You are watching his eyebrows.

When he does shift his eyes, we do a quick "sit/stick", push/pulling the dog back on the gunner with your knee. Hold him there again for at least as long as he sat before swinging away the first time. It is OK to give him an extra "sit" to help him stay locked on as you are trying to extend his wait time. Eventually he will learn the error of his ways and quickly swing back to the proper gun.

All the other common sense cautions of steadying apply ... advance the time and the temptations in small increments. When you do choose to do a double, make sure the dog changes his focus and swings only on _your_ movement. If he swings away, correct, move him back, hold him there and do the single only. The dog is never sent unless he is staring intently at his mark.

With a dog that is prone to do this, any multiple is done early in the session and he "goes to bed" with a success.

JS


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

JS said:


> When he does shift his eyes, we do a quick "sit/stick", push/pulling the dog back on the gunner with your knee. Hold him there again for at least as long as he sat before swinging away the first time. It is OK to give him an extra "sit" to help him stay locked on as you are trying to extend his wait time. Eventually he will learn the error of his ways and quickly swing back to the proper gun.
> JS


Your comments are good. I would however demand the dog take responsibility rather than sit/stick/knee him. Since he already knows the drill try just bumping the collar and saying nothing at all.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Breck said:


> Apparently you haven't paid either pro enough yet to get the best answer. :neutral:
> 
> Actually the problem with the first suggestion is your dog is not marking the first bird. No mark = no mark.
> Problem with the second suggestion is a stick correction is not the best correction for this situation. A little more finesse could be used.
> *Instead of a stick, watch your dogs eyes and use a low bump on the collar when dog sneaks a peak. Don't say Sit or anything just bump.* Say Good when he looks where you want.


That is all sorts of scary.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Breck said:


> Your comments are good. I would however demand the dog take responsibility rather than sit/stick/knee him. Since he already knows the drill try just bumping the collar and saying nothing at all.


This is probably fine once the dog is well advanced and "knows the drill". By that time however, we don't expect a headswing problem.  Like any other violation, if they're just trying to consciously sneak a peek and get away with it, the verbal accompaniment may not be necessary.

Where it becomes a benefit though, is at a trial when setting up to send for the tough retired memory bird(s). When you see the eyes shifting as if there is some doubt, help him find it and lock him on it with a "Sit". Having used that sequence in training, helps solidify the communication when you need it.

JS


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Unless I've missed something; 

What is the "HANDLER" doing which may be encouraging a head swing. As a routine, is the handler setting the dog up for success with his body language or, failure by their own moving around on the line which sets the dog up for the expectation of positioning himself(dog) for anticipating the next mark. Is the handler staying placed? Does the handler always move on the same count which conditions the dog to move with handler? 

I see a lot written on the dog....not much on the two legged handicap which usually accompanies a good marking dog to the line. (typically myself and my own bad habits) Dogs only do what we teach them or, what they pick up from us as a team-mate on the line. Kind of like the old game of counting someones' whistles on a blind then, asking them how many they "think" they used.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

Paul Johnson said:


> One of suggestions given for head swinging is to say "sit" with a correction (swat or nick) then send the dog for the mark. The question I have is this: Should you bring the dog's attention back to the mark before sending the dog?


At a TRT workshop here's what I thought I heard Mike Lardy say regarding correction at line for head swinging;

If the dog watches the bird to the ground then swings off before a 2-3 count, Mike said (I'm paraphrasing here) He doesn't make too big a deal about it; he just gets the dog to re focus on the mark thrown before calling for another mark

If the dog flashes off a mark while it is in mid air he; corrects with stick and gets dog to refocus.

Two different cases of head swinging with and without physical correction but in both cases he refocused the dog back to the mark thrown.


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## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

blind ambition said:


> At a TRT workshop here's what I thought I heard Mike Lardy say regarding correction at line for head swinging;
> 
> If the dog watches the bird to the ground then swings off before a 2-3 count, Mike said (I'm paraphrasing here) He doesn't make too big a deal about it; he just gets the dog to re focus on the mark thrown before calling for another mark
> 
> ...


Thank you. Refocusing after correcting the dog is missing in Training with Mike Lardy, Vol III "Twenty Ways to Control Head Swinging"


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Mike deals with this topic in his Total Retriever Marking dvd. I need to rewatch it to confirm what I think he said.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Paul Johnson said:


> Thank you. Refocusing the dog is missing in Training with Mike Lardy, Vol III "Twenty Ways to Control Head Swinging"


It's not "missing". Re-read Number 4, page 31, Volume III

Also, Number 6, page 31-32, Vol. III deals with enforcement.

*"F"* for reading comprehension.


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## Paul Johnson (May 6, 2008)

KNorman said:


> It's not "missing". Re-read Number 4, page 31, Volume III
> 
> Also, Number 6, page 31-32, Vol. III deals with enforcement.
> 
> *"F"* for reading comprehension.


Mike only addresses refocusing in #4, he doe not address corrections. In #8, he addresses corrections, he does not address refocusing. He only addresses both corrections and refocusing in #6. 

*Number #6* "Eventually, enforce your standards with a correction. I usually swat the dog with the healing stick following a 'sit' command if the dog swings off the bird before it hits the ground. If my dog watches the bird to the ground but then swings to the next mark, I simply bring his attention back to the original mark with verbal and physical cues. If he refuses to move back to the original mark, I'll use the healing stick to enforce my command. It is ..."

In #6, Mike talks about refocusing the dog without a correction if he watches the bird to the ground. Mike does not say anything about refocusing the dog if it recieved a correction for not watching the bird to the ground. He also talks about correcting the dog for not refocusing on the mark. Are we to assume that we should correct the dog for not watching the bird to the ground then correct it again for not refocusing on the mark?

I believe that section 6 is a quite ambiguous relative to refocusing after a correction.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

You want the dog to lock on the bird until you push/pull him to another, right?

What do YOU think will best convey that?

JS


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

> "Eventually, enforce your standards with a correction.


Respectfully, Paul, I think that first sentence makes it quite clear that the dog is refocused following the correction. The correction itself brings it about. Otherwise the correction was ineffective or incomplete.

Jim


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## vanman (Sep 26, 2007)

Depends on the dog.some dogs i wouldnt make a correction, i would just change the way i throw the marks as soon as i notice it.maybe run a long flyer with short guns out and dont run the other marks.i actually do this when theyre young for a bit and when tbey watck that long one without any attention to the short one,ill sub i n that shodt one occasionally to avert short bird problems.a correction.for head swinging with some dogs would make them nervous and i want them relaxed and concentrating when watching marks.theyre all different so the course of actuon with one dog may not be the course of action for another.just an amateurs thoughts


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