# CCL X's 2



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I am posting this so as to maybe help someone.

As some of you know, Elvis (my BLm) had CCL surgery last summer.
The process was the "swivel~lock" procedure.
Dr. Nick Schuett (Dr. Jeff's son) performed the procedure.
It was a full 6" incision.


That knee is as solid as could be, and he was running pretty well at about 10 weeks.
It was a huge success by all accounts.

Unfortunately, the other knee went this last winter.
It is a partial tear.

Dr. Nick is going to go in, clean up the tear and install the swivel~lock on this knee as well.
However, this will be done arthroscopically!

A 1/4" incision with minimal down time.
A 2 to 3 week healing period with the water therapy (under water treadmill).
Then another 2 to 3 week therapy period rebuilding the atrophied muscles.

Our expectation is to be running full speed in 8 to 10 weeks!

If this happens according to plan, this is a alternative process to be considered.
Let me know if there is interest, I will keep you posted, and if not that's OK too!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

would love to hear updates! Good luck


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

There might have already been a small tear present & when more weight than usual is transfered from bad limb to good it exacerbated the tear. IMO Arthoscopy! I would be very interested to hear how that goes. Good luck to you & Elvis.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Stan,
So sorry you and Elvis are going through this again but yes, please, I would love a play by play on this surgery.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Updates are definitely requested!! Hope that Elvis exceeds the doctor's expectations!


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

bummer for E but great that it can be fixed!


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## James Wick (Nov 17, 2012)

Sorry to hear that the knee needs to be repaired.

Jim Wick


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

Is there any documentation on the swivel lock procedure? I would like to read about it and learn. I have done 4 TPLO's on 2 dogs. I hope I never have another knee go but in the world of high octane performance dogs I feel that might be a pipe dream

Look forward to updates and would love to learn more about the procedure.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Stan,

Hang in there and I'm at least happy for you and Dr. Nick that the troubleshooting seems to have gotten to the root cause.

I think you're about to earn it.... (Or Elvis is):


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## Richard Reese (Apr 26, 2006)

Stan

Good luck with Elvis. The vets are not sure wether my male twisted his knee taking down a crippled goose or has a tear. I am real interested in Elvis's results.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> Is there any documentation on the swivel lock procedure? I would like to read about it and learn. I have done 4 TPLO's on 2 dogs. I hope I never have another knee go but in the world of high octane performance dogs I feel that might be a pipe dream
> 
> Look forward to updates and would love to learn more about the procedure.


The procedure is actually a tightrope using a swivel lock.
I hav e some info I will post.

The 1st one worked very well, maybe to well.
It was a complete tear.
This one is a partial tear, he may be having surgery now.
I dropped him off at 9.

More to follow.


Chris, that plate is too funny!


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

I feal for you. We just got stiches removed yesterday. My legs are bruised from the E collar. Have to keep him in Laundry room when not home, air in the rain on leash, walls scraped up from collar, cant get on furniture. Out of alot of $. We did the TPLO. Was going to try to post pics my vet took, but dont know how. Plate and several screws. Vet said he was doing good and may be ready for dove season. Good luck


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Would love to hear more on progress as I have a 5 mo old with a torn ccl and I am not sure at this point whether I am going to rehome her or see where we are when she reaches full grown.


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

Best of luck RK


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm willing to bet you still have a dog with a torn ccl that now has a heavy dose of arthritis coming her way.


BrettG said:


> Would love to hear more on progress as I have a 5 mo old with a torn ccl and I am not sure at this point whether I am going to rehome her or see where we are when she reaches full grown.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I have a pup with torn CCLs at 5 months. We waited for him to stop growing before doing bilateral TPLOs 4 days ago. His X-rays showed no visible arthritis and the Dr. Said the joints were in good shape. I found that surprising after limping around for 7 months.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

We reviewed the x rays, 50% tear or so.
Will do the surgery Friday morning, he will be home Friday night!
I will try to do videos of his gate after surgery.

More to come!


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## terrax (Sep 1, 2011)

Maxs Mom said:


> Is there any documentation on the swivel lock procedure? I would like to read about it and learn. I have done 4 TPLO's on 2 dogs. I hope I never have another knee go but in the world of high octane performance dogs I feel that might be a pipe dream
> 
> Look forward to updates and would love to learn more about the procedure.


see the following link to youtube title "TightRope® CCL: What is the evidence?" plus others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3marwavs0U

Also google CCL Swivelock and there are many papers that come up

Hope this helps


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Justin Allen said:


> I'm willing to bet you still have a dog with a torn ccl that now has a heavy dose of arthritis coming her way.


I realize she's not going to get any better, but nothing can be done until they reach full growth. Im just unsure on how much more damage she is going to do to the rest of her body because she won't slow down. She's a runner, a jumper, and just plain nuts, gonna be sad if she doesn't make it.


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

terrax said:


> see the following link to youtube title "TightRope® CCL: What is the evidence?" plus others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3marwavs0U Also google CCL Swivelock and there are many papers that come up Hope this helps


Thank you!!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

terrax said:


> see the following link to youtube title "TightRope® CCL: What is the evidence?" plus others
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3marwavs0U
> 
> Also google CCL Swivelock and there are many papers that come up
> ...


Thanks terrax, good post!


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Hope everything went well, and best of luck with the recovery.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

He has survived, I have a thumb drive of pictures of the ccl and surrounding area, pretty interesting.
I will post some this afternoon, he is walking on the leg/knee today.

I actually got to watch this procedure at arms length!:shock:


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

Oh geez, Stan, sorry to hear about Elvis' other leg. Glad he came through the surgery well and I'll be anxious to see any pics/videos you post.


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## James Wick (Nov 17, 2012)

Glad to hear that the surgery went as well as can be expected. Hope recovery also goes well.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

a sample of TPLO













Sorry I dont know how to do pics.
Our dog


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Elvis walked without a limp this morning.
(surgery was Friday)
Was stiff later.

I walk him 5 - 5minutes sessions a day.
(he stands on the operated leg to pee :shock: )
We do therapy after each walk, ice for 5 minutes and R.O.M. therapy on the knee.

Target is July to be running 100%

We shall see............



I have a thumb drive with pictures of the knee insides if anyone wants to see them I will post them.


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## Bill Stoune (Jul 18, 2011)

Stan,
Glad to hear that Elvis is recovering well. I hope he continues to improve.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)




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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Closing in on 2 weeks Friday.
Daily walks of 1/4 mile.
figure 8s, ROM therapy, ice and muscle massage twice daily.
Incision has dried and healed enough to begin water therapy Friday.

Results to follow.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Mine goes for his two week checkup after a bi lateral TPLO. All is good so far.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Sabireley said:


> Mine goes for his two week checkup after a bi lateral TPLO. All is good so far.


Good deal, hope it is good, it's a tough road ain't it?


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Yes it is. I look forward to getting him running again.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

It will be intersting to see how the tightrope performs over a large group of performance dogs. I like the less invasive nature of the surgery and that the geometry of the knee is not changed. My first experience with a TPLO went very badly and resulted in a permanently lame dog after $10k in two surgeries, diagnostics, and rehab. I am due for a good result &#55357;&#56832;.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I've got my girl scheduled for hers the first week of May. They're doing a version of the tight rope procedure on her.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

The therapy has been going very well, Elvis is swimming very nicely, nice function of the knees.
Longer straight walks, figure 8's and square sit.

1 small issue is some fluid still around knee.
No noticeable mechanical flaws or limping.
It was 3 weeks Friday.

Going for floating retrieves today, that's when bumper is thrown when dogs paws are off the bottom of the pond.
The pond bottom is entirely sand, NO rocks or logs to slip on.


Later...........


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Were 7 weeks into the TPLO recovery and still limping but will stand on that leg some to hike his other, but it trembles when he does


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Starting week 5. He favors the left leg more than the right but will stand on it to hike up the other leg. Long straight leash walks on still and his gait is much improved.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Due to daily water therapy (swimming) there is almost no muscle atrophy left, muscle mass measures the same on both legs.

We take straight line walks of 1/2 mile I n the am, 1/2 mile in the pm (after his dinner).
We walk figure 8's after each walk (use bushes to circle around).
Reeducate tri-pod sit...........
Some very light short tug of war with his humping blanket!:shock:

Swim every day round 3pm.

Everything is going nicely.
Fluid is 100% gone.
He is off pain meds completely.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Starting week 6 after bilateral TPLO.
Since he spent 7 months walking with torn CCLs his muscle tone was very poor and he did not walk on his toes fully. We are getting some tone now and he is walking higher on his toes.


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

Our girl is almost 11 months post op TPLO #2. Yes it's a long journey but it's worth taking the time to rehab correctly. Our girls competes in agility and trains in field and competition obedience. She is 100%. We train, walk or bike run every day. Her legs are solid. 

We started rehab one week after surgery with our surgeons blessing. No water work until her staples came out. We worked with a physical therapist at least once a week from early July to late September. Returned to agility in Oct and after the first of the year we returned to field. Her thigh muscles and range of motion on both legs was 100% when the therapy completed. 

I know it's hard but take it slow. It's worth it in the long run. Good luck!!!!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I got some flack recently for missing training sessions and my clubs HT this last weekend.
Allow me to address the issue.
I am not afraid to work a test or throw birds, I have done a fair amount of that, actually I really enjoy doing that. 

I am concerned about getting the bug so bad we might make a mistake.
It is very hard not to do the stuff we love to do, for the 2nd summer in a row.
Dr Nick suggests I lay low a little longer so as not to ruin what we have done so far. 

For those of you who have walked this path, you get it.
For those who haven't, for the record, it's sucks and it's really hard.
For those of you that know someone going thru this, have patience, give them a call they would love to hear from you!

To those who I train with, have patience with me and Elvis, we are working diligently at the rehab and we are coming!

Thanks,

Stan b and Elvis


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## James Wick (Nov 17, 2012)

Club members enjoy training with you, but the well-being of Elvis comes first. Just do a little more fishing this year and then come back strong training when the dog is able. 

J Wick


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

road kill said:


> Due to daily water therapy (swimming) there is almost no muscle atrophy left, muscle mass measures the same on both legs.
> *
> We take strai 1/2 mile I n the am, 1/2 mile in the pm (after his dinner).ght line walks of*
> We walk figure 8's after each walk (use bushes to circle around).
> ...


And a bye product is you are getting back your youthful figure after years of oh so good Brat's and beer. 

Really good to hear Stan. Really good !


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

6 weeks yesterday on the "Swivel-Lock~Tightrope" style procedure.

Have been doing a lot of water therapy, 2 sessions daily.
Have been walking up fairly steep hills (  ) every day.
Walk about 2 miles every morning.
Today we started running 20-25 yard straight flat runs, no pivots.

I am a little surprised at the atrophy in the leg muscles, but we are getting there.

BTW~I still do massage therapy after each swim and or walk/run.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Last night we went to our first training session this year.
Lots of pent up anxiety to run, but all he did was watch.
I just thought it a good opportunity to work on honoring!
And it was!

Make the best of what you got!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

The 2 a day swims are really paying off.
Muscle mass returning, acclamation to repair, ROM and cardio coming along very nicely!
Overall health, physical and mental well being improving every outing.

Again, on the water work, be sure the bottom of the pond is free of slippery rocks or logs.
It is important to avoid a situation where the dog could slip.
The pond we use is a sand bottom.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

After many swims and up hill walks, hikes and runs today we turned him loose!
He ran w memory blinds of about 80 yards and We did some walking baseball.
We believe he is now rehabed to function.
The process now turns to performance.
I believe this will take a while to get back to the performance level he was at prior to the surgery.
It is my theory that many (our) second injury was due to rehabbing to function and not thoroughly working back to previous performance conditioning.
That includes muscular condition as well as cardio function.

Stand by!


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Maxs Mom said:


> Is there any documentation on the swivel lock procedure? I would like to read about it and learn. I have done 4 TPLO's on 2 dogs. I hope I never have another knee go but in the world of high octane performance dogs I feel that might be a pipe dream
> 
> Look forward to updates and would love to learn more about the procedure.


Take a look at Grant # 01584 below, and think again about 'correct structure' as discussed here recently...

"At the mid-year meeting of the Board of Directors, the LRC, Inc. voted to fund several research projects at the AKC Canine Health Foundation:
Grant 01609 - using probiotics to control the diarrhea and weight loss associated with inflammatory bowel disease, 
Grant 02078 - using regenerative osteochondral plugs to reconstruct cartilage, transitional tissue, or bone, 
Grant 02107 - proving that regenerative medicine actually works and is not just anecdotal, 
Grant 01584 – using conformation scores to predict the likelihood of cranial cruciate rupture, and 
Grant 01762 - using platelet enriched plasma, a regenerative medicine technique, to heal cruciate ligament damage. 
Each Grant will get $10,000 from our donor advised fund. 
Please continue to submit your Purina weight circles so we can continue to help our breed! THANK YOU!
LRC Health Committee, June 12, 2015"


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

road kill said:


> After many swims and up hill walks, hikes and runs today we turned him loose!
> He ran w memory blinds of about 80 yards and We did some walking baseball.
> We believe he is now rehabed to function.
> The process now turns to performance.
> ...


That's great news. Mine is in wk 8 after a version of the tight rope and gets to start land retrieves next week.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Update as of Yesterday;

Elvis and I are guiding pheasant hunts, 2 a week, generally 10~20 birds at a time.

Something that occurred to me......the rehab provided by the veterinarian was to function.
EX: Your dog is a working dog, so he operates at 100%.
After surgery he is most likely at 25% or even less.
The therapy and rehab is to function which is still not back to 100%.
There is atrophy, lack of muscle tone and stamina along with other mechanical issues due to the apparatus in the CCL area.

We did all of the swimming and basic therapy.
But we went quite a bit further.
We ran angle hills with the pitch to both the right and left.
Ran flat lines on hills with the pitch to the right and left.
He ran dozens of 200 yard memory/momentum blinds.
And ultimately ran straight UP and DOWN 45 degree hills.

He did have a very slight drag in his left rear paw, that is now gone away.
He has a bounce in his step and runs as well as he ever did.

If you are wondering, he DID have both CCL's done using the "Swivel~Lock/Tightrope" procedure.

Again, the initial rehab is to function, the performance rehab I think is needed to strengthen the whole dog to where he was.

Needless to say, we are having a great fall hunting upland game and providing that same experience to others!

It took a lot of patience and perseverance, I thank God we made it and I got my pup back!

NOW~Back to the quest for the HRCH!!!!!


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Sabireley said:


> Starting week 6 after bilateral TPLO.
> Since he spent 7 months walking with torn CCLs his muscle tone was very poor and he did not walk on his toes fully. We are getting some tone now and he is walking higher on his toes.


So we are 7 months post op and 4 months post rehab. He is getting much stronger, though he still tends to put more weight on his front legs than is normal. His walking and trotting gaits are pretty good, the spring on his toes is improving, and he can jump fairly well. His galloping gait is still more of a bunny hop gait than it should be, but seems to be improving as well. He can run 2 miles at 18 to 20 mph, so his strength and endurance are quite good. I doubt his gait will be 100%, but should be good enough for hunting and HT training, though we'll continue with FT training through the Spring to give him a shot. He's running blinds to 300 yards and marking well. He loves to work, which makes the rehab easier and more fun.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

road kill said:


> Update as of Yesterday;
> 
> Elvis and I are guiding pheasant hunts, 2 a week, generally 10~20 birds at a time.
> 
> ...


I offer this information as an alternative to the TPLO process.
It is truly worth investigating if your pup has ccl issues..

Happy New Year to ALL!!

All the best,


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

road kill said:


> Update as of Yesterday;
> 
> Elvis and I are guiding pheasant hunts, 2 a week, generally 10~20 birds at a time.
> 
> ...


The rehab is everything!
Stay the course, the more thorough the rehab, the better the result.
The rehab to function is step 1, rehab to performance is just as important,.
We ran tests, participated in FT training and guided 30 pheasant hunts this fall.
He is as strong as he could be!

Good luck to those going through This!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, I guess it's time for the rest of the story.
We worked very hard and we were very thorough on the therapy and rehab.
He can run as hard as ever.
But he can't run a perfectly straight line.
He handles great and can swim straight but on longer marks he drifts further and further to the left.
The left ccl had to be done twice.
The right once.
Right fore paw had a cyst removed.
Scratched cornea.
In all 6+ years of injuries and rehab.

Also, arthritis has set in a bit.
We treat that with adequan injections and cosequin supplements.
He is 9+ ish now.

He loves to train, he loves being around the other dogs and the people and the excitement.
But he can not really train as hard as he needs to to participate at the higher levels.
After a day of running 10 or 12 marks and a handful of blinds he can't get up so easy any more.

He has a few minor titles, NAHRA and HRC but never titled at all in the AKC formats.

So, Sunday he gets 1 more run.
Be it in a minor stake, he gets to play.

He doesn't care, he just wants to play.

He will have an apprentice soon to share his unique personality with, but it is still kinda hard to see this happen.

Anyways, some of you have been thru this I'm sure.
I will just praise him & enjoy our day no matter What!

He had so much promise, and in part I messed him up.
But he taught me so much.
So 1 more time........

We wouldn't have it any other way!


Don't ever take it for granted, sometimes things can go sideways quickly.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Stan, Thanks for updating. I really doubt you "messed him up". CCL is a degenerative problem that is why so many of them blow both knees. I hope we find a genetic link here in the not to distant future. You did a remarkable job in rehab and being patient. No dog could ask for a better chance to rehab. Sounds like you have a good attitude, toward his future. Not bad life guiding pheasants for as long as he did. He just wants to play as you said, he does not care how and you can control the level of play to keep him comfortable.

Best of luck for him and your new apprentice when he/she shows up.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

They just want to be with you, go to training, get a bird or two and hang out. Don't be throwing 10 or 12 birds though, and maybe it is you that wants to still play. Not marking means something is bothering him, Retire him with dignity and look forward to training a new pup.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

NateB said:


> Stan, Thanks for updating. I really doubt you "messed him up". CCL is a degenerative problem that is why so many of them blow both knees. I hope we find a genetic link here in the not to distant future. You did a remarkable job in rehab and being patient. No dog could ask for a better chance to rehab. Sounds like you have a good attitude, toward his future. Not bad life guiding pheasants for as long as he did. He just wants to play as you said, he does not care how and you can control the level of play to keep him comfortable.
> 
> Best of luck for him and your new apprentice when he/she shows up.


Thanks for the encouraging words Dr Nate,
I'm following the advice from Mr. Hillman and letting him have a party!

I'll take good care of him, make sure he is safe, happy and comfortable.

The procedure Dr Nick used on him was relatively new.
I am comfortable with how it worked out.

He is healthy otherwise, in great shape due to the swimming.


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

Stan, Thanks for sharing your story and the subsequent updates on Elvis. Very helpful for those of us going through it for the first time.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Sabireley said:


> So we are 7 months post op and 4 months post rehab. He is getting much stronger, though he still tends to put more weight on his front legs than is normal. His walking and trotting gaits are pretty good, the spring on his toes is improving, and he can jump fairly well. His galloping gait is still more of a bunny hop gait than it should be, but seems to be improving as well. He can run 2 miles at 18 to 20 mph, so his strength and endurance are quite good. I doubt his gait will be 100%, but should be good enough for hunting and HT training, though we'll continue with FT training through the Spring to give him a shot. He's running blinds to 300 yards and marking well. He loves to work, which makes the rehab easier and more fun.


Last Fall I ended up placing Bubs in a hunting home mostly because he was not a great marker and would not make it in the FT game. His gait is not 100%, but physically his knees have healed and are strong enough for multiple consecutive days pheasant hunting in South Dakota, which can be a challenge for any dog. He found a great home where he gets to hunt a lot, so it ended well for all.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I read the post about the dog with the ccl issue.
I thought I would bump this.

All the best who are going through this.

This worked for us.
We still hunt.
We still train.
He marks as well as ever.
He can run with much younger dogs.
WE still do walking singles at various distances (50 thru 125 yards), usually 8 to 10.
He loves it!


We will clean up a couple loose ends this summer.
i.e. SH title.

May run a MH level test, but at 10 years old I'm not likely to ask much more of him than a run or 2.

Stan B & Elvis
Both getting old, both still hanging on!


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

road kill said:


> I read the post about the dog with the ccl issue.
> I thought I would bump this.
> 
> All the best who are going through this.
> ...


I'm the one getting old. I thought you were talking about Concealed Carry License.


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