# Pointing Goldens



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Had a client ask me, does anyone actually breed goldens that point? Looking in the western US.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Because of the breeds that went into creating the Golden Retriever, once in a while you'll get a dog that points. There really isn't any way to predict which dogs will point. (even from the same litter.)


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Funny you mention that - my 7 month old has been pointing field mice and activity in gopher holes that are in big fields. that may be common and much different than pointing live birds, but it got me thinking because I bought her from a husband and wife team where the husband breeds pointing labs and the wife breeds field goldens. I'll bet if anyone would know the answer to your question it would be them. They are in Ellensberg, Washington. He has Tiger Mountain Pointing Labs and she has SkyRiver Goldens. Both have separate web sites, but operate on the same beautiful grounds.

Jennifer


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> Had a client ask me, does anyone actually breed goldens that point? Looking in the western US.


I hope not! The little and infrequent pointing done is merely Flash Pointing.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

What is the difference between pointing and flash pointing? Do pointers ever flash point? Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm a retriever guy, and a newb at that!


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Donald Flanagan said:


> What is the difference between pointing and flash pointing? Do pointers ever flash point? Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm a retriever guy, and a newb at that!


Numerous animals will flash point game they are stalking - from domestic cats, various dog breeds, to African prey animals. A Flash Point is just that - an infrequent point that may occur once an outing, once a month or maybe once a year.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

tzappia said:


> Numerous animals will flash point game they are stalking - from domestic cats, various dog breeds, to African prey animals. A Flash Point is just that - an infrequent point that may occur once an outing, once a month or maybe once a year.


Thanks! So, if I understand correctly, a flash point is the same as any other point, but the animal cannot be depended upon to point consistently or often, because the instinct isn't as strong? If this is the case, I think the term "flash point" is misleading, and should be dropped, perhaps in lieu of a more accurate term of "a mild pointing instinct".

I wasn't sure if what I was seeing was pointing or not, but there were times when running my lab (not from "pointing" lines, to my knowledge) in a field, and as he looked for his mark, he would stop and stare intently at a gopher hole. One time, while hunting quail, the abruptly stopped and stared intently at a bush, with a paw lifted, as if in mid-step. I thought, "naw, that can't be a point...he just smells a rabbit." Then, while running him in a family pheasant hunt for the CA DFG, hunting planted, farm-raised pheasants, we saw one fly from another field into ours. We went back and worked the area, and couldn't find it. We made a final sweep through the area, and as my dog was quartering, he suddenly put on the breaks and whipped around and BAM! He was on point, staunch, foot lifted, shoulders hunched, head down and in a straight line with his body, pointing at a patch of knee-high grass a few feet away. We hurried over, and I called "BOOMER!" to release him, and he pounced, flushing the pheasant, which the hunter missed. But wow, that was cool!

So what I had dismissed before, I finally realized was what you might refer to as "flash pointing", and to use my term, my dog has a "mild pointing instinct." All the other birds he'd found that morning had been flushed immediately, without hesitation. But something in his brain said "FREEZE!", and he locked up instantly.

I'm not training him to hold point, or breeding him as a pointing lab or anything like that, but as a newb, I find the distinction between a "real" point and a "flash" point to be less than satisfying. Unfortunately, there are retriever purists and pointer purists that look down their noses with disdain at the notion of a "pointing lab". I don't see what the big deal is, and purists in general are rather annoying (yes, I am one in certain areas, and yes, I'm annoying!).

If there are pointing goldens, I don't see a problem with selecting for that trait. The retriever purist would say "the golden *retriever* is a retriever- not a pointer, and pointing is not included in the breed standard, so don't select for it". I hear the pointer purists (I'm not saying you're one of these, Tony) say things about "flash pointing", or "not real pointing", without defining what a "true point" is, and that leaves inquiring minds like mine saying "huhhhh????"

Now, if someone for some reason wanted to develop what they consider the ultimate gun dog, the "Golden Pointing Retriever" or whatever, then the REAL purists would come out of the woodwork, screaming about designer breeds, etc.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Donald, my Goldens flashpoint on occasion but I would prefer to have my dogs push and bust pheasants rather than freeze on point. I've seen too many pressured birds run away from pointing dogs whereas a good flushing dog will get those birds in the air. Live those flushers!


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Donald Flanagan said:


> Now, if someone for some reason wanted to develop what they consider the ultimate gun dog, the "Golden Pointing Retriever" or whatever, then the REAL purists would come out of the woodwork, screaming about designer breeds, etc.


NAH, they'd just get a Flat Coat.


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## Mcgnaw (Mar 4, 2008)

I had a female Golden, Braevue's Ali Mcgnaw that was a *staunch* pointer. She pointed pheasants, grouse, woodcock and quail; I don't know how she did it but she would hold the bird right there until we came up behind her and flushed it. One of her daughters also pointed. Ali was incredible fun to hunt with!


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## Mcgnaw (Mar 4, 2008)

And sorry Tony, but she was totally reliable and could be depended upon to point. No "flash pointing" for her!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

You could certainly train a decent one to do it if you wanted to.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> You could certainly train a decent one to do it if you wanted to.


You certainly can. Heck, you can not only train a golden to point, but I bet you could even train one to point only roosters and by using one of their toes on their front feet...similar to humans pointing with their index finger...


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## pointing-goldens (Jan 28, 2014)

*All Goldens will point.*



tzappia said:


> You certainly can. Heck, you can not only train a golden to point, but I bet you could even train one to point only roosters and by using one of their toes on their front feet...similar to humans pointing with their index finger...


I'm a few years late to this party. But all goldens will point. They have the latent ability to do so. I teach all my goldens to point then sent them pointing dog trainer to be finished. They are now steady to wing and shot, and back other dogs. 

The technique to activate the instinct is simple. You tie a pheasant wing or tail to a cord, you then swing it around and let your golden chase it. Eventually, when they don't catch it, they will come to a point. Then you just reinforce that behavior with repetition and praise. 

Regards,

John


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Here's one.....










/Paul


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

pointing-goldens said:


> I'm a few years late to this party. But all goldens will point. They have the latent ability to do so. I teach all my goldens to point then sent them pointing dog trainer to be finished. They are now steady to wing and shot, and back other dogs.
> 
> The technique to activate the instinct is simple. You tie a pheasant wing or tail to a cord, you then swing it around and let your golden chase it. Eventually, when they don't catch it, they will come to a point. Then you just reinforce that behavior with repetition and praise.
> 
> ...



Can I see the APGA being formed in the near future?


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

I want a Silver Pointing Golden.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Oh no ... PLEASE don't do this. 

You want a pointer; buy one.

JS


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

There is a big difference between a real point and a dog being taught to stand game. Any dog of any breed can be taught to stand still on scent, but it's not a truly natural point.

Also, a flash point is a hesitation....the dog gets scent, freezes and hesitates for a second or two, then jumps in to flush/chase.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

pointing-goldens said:


> I'm a few years late to this party. But all goldens will point. They have the latent ability to do so. I teach all my goldens to point then sent them pointing dog trainer to be finished. They are now steady to wing and shot, and back other dogs.
> 
> The technique to activate the instinct is simple. You tie a pheasant wing or tail to a cord, you then swing it around and let your golden chase it. Eventually, when they don't catch it, they will come to a point. Then you just reinforce that behavior with repetition and praise.
> 
> ...


First post, way to hit it out of the ballpark.


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## DrDuck (Dec 26, 2013)

I think that all predators will freeze and stop a stalk. I think flash pointing is a useful term for the instinct pause during a stalk. I have had 6 goldens and all but one of them would point upland birds. Two of them would hold a point for 20 to 30 seconds. I had one that was returning with a quail and locked up in a point on a bobwhite in a small clump of grass. That one flushed and he turned fast to follow it. I shot it and he marked it down and turned back to look at me and I said, here. He then retrieved the bird he pointed. The same dog pointed wild turkeys for us in a CRP native field. All three of us shot pointed wild turkeys. We had walked into a group of about 30. 

Spencer


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

pointing-goldens said:


> The technique to activate the instinct is simple. You tie a pheasant wing or tail to a cord, you then swing it around and let your golden chase it. Eventually, when they don't catch it, they will come to a point. Then you just reinforce that behavior with repetition and praise.


Chasing a wing on a string until a pup stops? That's a quit, not a point. 

And using wings and feathers that way teaches a dog to sight point, not scent point. 

Most any dog can be taught to stand game....that's easy. A true pointing dog will stop on first scent, rather than roading in until it is standing almost over a bird.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Chasing a wing on a string until a pup stops? That's a quit, not a point.
> 
> And using wings and feathers that way teaches a dog to sight point, not scent point.
> 
> Most any dog can be taught to stand game....that's easy. A true pointing dog will stop on first scent, rather than roading in until it is standing almost over a bird.


I think it was a joke/troll.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

HNTFSH said:


> I think it was a joke/troll.


Dang....I've been punked???


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Dang....I've been punked???


Let's hope so. Better than the alternative. ;-)


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

HNTFSH said:


> Let's hope so. Better than the alternative. ;-)


 I shall remain guardedly optimistic.


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## Duckman0612 (Feb 1, 2011)

Different breed but relevant, if my seven week old will point at the little stuffed duck i throw for him. Is it just puppy play or do I have a lab that will point? When he does it he'll hold it for a few seconds then pounce on the duck.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Most puppies will do that....it's play behavior but based on instinct, which can be developed into pointing rather than flushing. It all depends on what you want, shape and reward. However, it's sight pointing, which is different from scent pointing. You can teach a Chihuahua or a Great Dane or a Coonhound to point.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Swampcollie said:


> Because of the breeds that went into creating the Golden Retriever, once in a while you'll get a dog that points. There really isn't any way to predict which dogs will point. (even from the same litter.)


so, kinda like if it will swim? 
please forgive me and bless the starving pygmies in Wyoming


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> ....... You can teach a Coonhound to point.



true, but they sing out BR-ROO BR-ROOOO BRAAA-ROOOOOO
while they do it!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Years ago, I was out for a leisurely walk through the woods with my two dogs...my Chessie, Sky, and my Walker hound, Jack. During the course of this walk, my Chessie chased a squirrel up a tree and stood there barking at it....and half an hour later my hound locked up on point on a grouse. All I could do was laugh and shake my head.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> Because of the breeds that went into creating the Golden Retriever, once in a while you'll get a dog that points. There really isn't any way to predict which dogs will point. (even from the same litter.)


I guide with a guy that breeds solid goldens...every one that I hunted with pointed. Doesn't look like he is advertises or sells them as pointing golden's, but he has a high proportionate number of golden's that point....he is on Vancouver Island, British Columbia... http://www.goldngunretrievers.com/


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Most puppies will do that....it's play behavior but based on instinct, which can be developed into pointing rather than flushing. It all depends on what you want, shape and reward. However, it's sight pointing, which is different from scent pointing. You can teach a Chihuahua or a Great Dane or a Coonhound to point.


 At the training seminar I did for Oregon Department of Fish/Game last year, a guy brought a coonhound. Had him retrieving ducks and doing 100 yard marks in water by the end. I was pretty happy about that, especially since it was quite a chore to load the black bear in the winger...

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Should be pretty easy to teach a golden to point. Heck someone even taught one to fetch....










/Paul


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## DrDuck (Dec 26, 2013)

Frankly, I enjoy watching the sequence that leads to a flushed bird more than a point. When you see your dog turn on scent, get birdy, slow down (except for the tail wagging) and put up a bird it is as good as it gets.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

My Riley dog would lock up on occasion and it was fun, until he locked up on a skunk. What was interesting was he only did it if the bird was still, the moment it moved , bang, in he went. I never viewed it as a true point, but he did it with regularity. I often wondered if it was enouraged by the fact he had been on planted birds early in training.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

DrDuck said:


> Frankly, I enjoy watching the sequence that leads to a flushed bird more than a point. When you see your dog turn on scent, get birdy, slow down (except for the tail wagging) and put up a bird it is as good as it gets.


As do I, I feel there is worthiness is in teaching a flusher, an easy or whoa command, so the dog knows enough not to flush; before I can get prepared, but definitely I don't wish to flush my own birds, that's a dogs job  Retrievers don't point they pause, I can appreciate pause but they better have the bold flush as well .

Interesting I just looked Up the AKC Golden Standard, I only see hunting mentioned once, and flushing style is not described at all.To an outsider this seems a pretty relaxed, standard for a primarily game dog breed. A better description of style might be a benefit to the breed. Labs have hunting mentioned several times, and while it might be ignored at least it's in there.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> 1. There is a big difference between a real point and a dog being taught to stand game. Any dog of any breed can be taught to stand still on scent, but it's not a truly natural point.
> 
> 2. Also, a flash point is a hesitation....the dog gets scent, freezes and hesitates for a second or two, then jumps in to flush/chase.


1 Absolutely. 

2. I suspect that hesitation is the time period during which the dog assures itself of the location of the prey (by scent, sight and/or hearing) before proceeding. "Proceeding" could result in a true staunch point or a pounce/capture or chase.. Young pointers and setters (breeds with the strongest natural pointing instincts) will "flash point" and follow up with an attempt to capture. Over time they (most) settle down and become more and more "staunch" (holding point longer and longer). A "staunch" pointing dog may be a servicable hunting dog - it allows the shooter to approach and will only break as the shooter moves forward past it ("wanting" to be in on the attempt to capture) - but it is not "finished." A "finished" dog is also "steady." Some (a few?) become naturally "steady," allowing the handler to move forward to flush and kill the bird but most require training to develop steadiness. Steadiness can be of several forms depending on what event, if any, in the flush, shot, fall sequence triggers a break (the dog ceases to stand, chases etc) If the dog breaks when the bird flushes, it is not steady to any level; if not, it is "steady to wing." Steady to shot and steady to fall are similarly defined. The finished dog is steady to wing, shot and fall.

Leastwise that's the way I understand this stuff. Anyone with a better understanding or alternative description/definitions feel free to chime in.

Since pointers and setters naturally go through such a development process (flash point, break, chase, ..., cease the chase stuff and become stanch pointers), just as my first two "pointing labs." did, I'm left wondering just how does one *know* he's seeing a natural point versus a learned behavior when his dog consistently locates birds and "locks up" in a staunch point w/o any effort to train or shape that behavior on its human's part?? And don't tell me by the origin of the "breed" of dog you're watching. We need something deeper than that very shallow non-answer.

Jere


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## jluther (Jul 18, 2005)

A friend just came back from the French Brittany National in Georgia, where she ran her dogs in the field trials. While she was apprentice judging, one dog pointed (or stood there awestruck) at a feral sow and her piglets. One of the judges commented, "If the pigs fly, I'll count it."


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Jere said:


> Since pointers and setters naturally go through such a development process (flash point, break, chase, ..., cease the chase stuff and become stanch pointers), just as my first two "pointing labs." did, I'm left wondering just how does one *know* he's seeing a natural point versus a learned behavior when his dog consistently locates birds and "locks up" in a staunch point w/o any effort to train or shape that behavior on its human's part?? And don't tell me by the origin of the "breed" of dog you're watching. We need something deeper than that very shallow non-answer.
> 
> Jere


Learned/taught behavior on point is usually quite obvious. The dog stops, stays put, and looks in the general direction of the bird with interest. 

The natural point has a whole different intensity level. Imagine a dog running hard, spinning sideways in mid-air and landing stiff legged, head and tail high, quivering with excitement yet never moving a muscle. The bird may well be 30 yards away, yet the slightest scent causes the dog to freeze mid-stride. 

The difference is hard to describe, but if you saw two dogs....one that has been taught to stand their game and the other with a ton of natural point, the difference is night and day. Both types require training since the instinct to chase is strong...but the dog with the natural point will stand out via intensity and style.

It's a lot like watching a retriever with a ton of natural retrieve drive compared to a dog that has no natural retrieve drive but has been taught to retrieve. They will both go out and pick something up, but the difference is obvious.


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Should be pretty easy to teach a golden to point. Heck someone even taught one to fetch....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh hell Paul, I taught a golden to fetch once... and walked away with one of the ribbons.... I think you were there. It was nice of you to stay and watch.
Randy


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

Sharon Potter said:


> Chasing a wing on a string until a pup stops? That's a quit, not a point.
> 
> And using wings and feathers that way teaches a dog to sight point, not scent point.
> 
> Most any dog can be taught to stand game....that's easy. A true pointing dog will stop on first scent, rather than roading in until it is standing almost over a bird.


Virtually every bird dog man i know uses this method on pointing breeds to introduce birds and wings to pup, and begin the steadying process. I had the pleasure growing up of training with 3 different dog trainers that later became HOF, Eugene (Gene) Casale, Ferrell Miller (less time with him since he was in KY) and John Rex Gates. I have seen all 3 use a "bird pole" with my own eyes (actually Ferrel was DQd in early 2000s but it does not change his all time winning record in the bird dog arena). It does not really teach a pup anything...it introduces a bird while you have a check cord on the pup and begin to introduce control. Watch a Ferrel Miller video or Sherry Ray Ebert's videos and you will see young dogs introduced to whoa on birds. I have had bird dogs that held on there first bird and those that chased birds till they got a little more maturity. The comments of sight pointing of scent pointing are accurate and i would say that this is the main difference in traditional pointing breeds and retriever. However, i have seen setters and pointers that insisted on getting their eyes on it and i have sen labs that locked down 20 yrds downwind and never bothered to look for a bird, the norm seems to be vice versa but blanket statements are generally unsubstantiated. Too many generalizations above from people that i doubt have trained a serious pointer....i may have only run a few derbies in retriever games and run MH dogs, but i have bred, trained, scouted and ran winning FT bird dogs and most of the generalizations above just dont hold water....

"stand game".....LOL. that is not even a phrase pointing people use. I cant figure out why any retriever having a ingrained natural trait to point game is such a threat to the purist.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

"Pointing people" covers an awful lot of folks, and I learned from and continue to work with some of the best. That's where I learned the phrase "standing game", and I've heard it from a lot of pointing dog people....it's actually pretty commonly used to refer to a dog with no talent to point. When I say standing game, it's not a slam on any breed...it's about a dog not having enough natural point to do it without being taught. 

I don't know anyone who plays the "wing on a string" game other than to play with puppies a few times.....they aren't teaching dogs to point or to be steady, they're playing with puppies. There's a difference between using a live bird on a "may-pole" and swinging around a chunk of dried feathers for a 7 week old puppy. Steadying isn't done using a wing on a string....it takes live birds and lots of 'em. The part I really took issue with is playing wing on a string until the dog gets tired of chasing it and stops. That has absolutely nothing to do with pointing...that's boring a dog until it quits.

And a pointing dog that insists it has to have eyes on the bird before it will stop and point either hasn't got a nose at all (highly unlikely) or has been allowed to road in and sight point rather than stopping on scent. It's simple lack of training.


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

Sharon Potter said:


> The natural point has a whole different intensity level. Imagine a dog running hard, spinning sideways in mid-air and landing stiff legged, head and tail high, quivering with excitement yet never moving a muscle. The bird may well be 30 yards away, yet the slightest scent causes the dog to freeze mid-stride.
> 
> The difference is hard to describe, but if you saw two dogs....one that has been taught to stand their game and the other with a ton of natural point, the difference is night and day. Both types require training since the instinct to chase is strong...but the dog with the natural point will stand out via intensity and style.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

deadriver said:


> Virtually every bird dog man i know uses this method on pointing breeds to introduce birds and wings to pup, and begin the steadying process. ...


Maybe you'd like to know some that don't. No barrels, no whoa, no styling either. Just intense, stylish, nauturally pointing dogs. One works in NW SC - might be close enough for a visit should you want. PM me for more info.

I've heard the term "Standing Game" as Sharon used it or Standing birds" sometimes "Standing his birds" to mean Staunch or maybe Staunch and steady. Bird dog terminology isn't exactly well defined and universally consitently used.

Jere


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Sharon Potter and deadriver, both your posts are excellent! Thanks. 

It's rare to see this type of insight about pointing on the Retriever Training Forum. I enjoyed reading them....mostly because there was no agenda.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> Sharon Potter and deadriver, both your posts are excellent! Thanks.
> 
> It's rare to see this type of insight about pointing on the Retriever Training Forum. I enjoyed reading them....mostly because there was no agenda.


X2. This really turned into a great thread!


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> so, kinda like if it will swim?
> please forgive me and bless the starving pygmies in Wyoming


Many goldens will swim with haste if there is sufficient motivation. (grilled pork chops, bbq'd ribs, girlie in the mood, etc.) 

Ahh brother Ken, the pygmies of Wyoming would no longer be starving if they were able to draw sustinence from the heavenly golden nectar refined from the maple forests of the northeast. ;-)


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Good information so far but I'm a little confused when it comes to a dog you have trained to be a flusher. 

If your flushing dog stops over a bird and does not move, is he standing game, displaying a weak point or both? Or maybe a pointer person would define it as a weak point and a flusher person would call it standing game? In my example above I think the dog has stopped right on top of bird scent but has not flushed it because the dog cannot see it, but knows it is right there. In this situation I have always thought the dog was standing game and have always encouraged the dog to continue to hunt and dig the bird out. I have also seen dogs that have had too many nicks for steady or sit at the flush turn into game standers.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

A flushing dog that continually stops right over the top of a bird is showing a weak, or hesitant, flush. That can come from lack of bird experience (most common), pressure, or poor training. However, if a dog does this continually and consistently, you can develop it into a point if that's your desire. I get a few mixed breeds in here to train, and find this fairly common when they're learning about birds, so at this point in training I ask the owner if they want the dog to point or to flush, and then I train accordingly.

Some flushing breeds have a bit of a hesitant flush, similar to a flash point, where they stop for a second or two, then jump in to flush the bird.

"Standing game" is when you take a dog that wants to flush and chase but has no natural desire to point...and you make it stand still when it finds a bird rather than flushing. It's entirely man made.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

90% of the labs here at the club that were very bold flushers start pointing at 6 or 7 or at the 2500 or 3000 bird mark.Why,"anticipation" is my guess to the culprit.
All the research and discussions I`ve had with chessie people say theirs point,to my SATISFACTION I`ve not seen this,allthough I`m only at the 1000 bird mark with my 4 yo. Jim


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

RetrieverNation said:


> Good information so far but I'm a little confused when it comes to a dog you have trained to be a flusher.
> 
> If your flushing dog stops over a bird and does not move, is he standing game, displaying a weak point or both? ... I have also seen dogs that have had too many nicks for steady or sit at the flush turn into game standers.



Depends on what you mean by "trained to be a flusher." Combine with "I have also seen dogs that have had too many nicks for steady or sit at the flush turn into game standers." and you may have your answer. I've been told this even happens with some Springers. It was also said "They don't breed the ones that do that."

OTOH, if you really haven't done anything special to "train" the dog as a flusher, just let it interact naturally with birds. It is possible, and maybe likely, what you're seeing is a natural point emerging as a result of the progress of the dog's experience (learning) from the birds and your reactions. 

Jere


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Klamath Hunting Gold said:


> Oh hell Paul, I taught a golden to fetch once... and walked away with one of the ribbons.... I think you were there. It was nice of you to stay and watch.
> Randy


I always like to watch the little stakes run. So fun to watch what the youngsters are doing...

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I've always loved discussions about getting dogs bred to flush to point, and dogs bred to point flushing. I especially like it when a client brings a dog to me to teach a dog bred to naturally behave a certain way to do the opposite. You haven't seen a real pointer till you seen a well bred EP. 

/Paul


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Jere said:


> OTOH, if you really haven't done anything special to "train" the dog as a flusher, just let it interact naturally with birds. It is possible, and maybe likely, what you're seeing is a natural point emerging as a result of the progress of the dog's experience (learning) from the birds and your reactions.
> 
> Jere


I used to pheasant hunt a lot with friends who raised Irish Wolfhounds. They always had one that would point--and sometimes one that would also retrieve shot birds. They never "trained" the dogs for this, just took them along for exercise when they felt like seeing if they could kick up a few birds on their land, but eventually some of them picked it up. It was pretty cool.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Klamath Hunting Gold said:


> Oh hell Paul, I taught a golden to fetch once... and walked away with one of the ribbons.... I think you were there. It was nice of you to stay and watch.
> Randy


Hey besides my other reply, you got any more litters coming up? I got a potential client looking for a ground squirrel and I know you do a few every so many years?

/Paul


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I've always loved discussions about getting dogs bred to flush to point, and dogs bred to point flushing. I especially like it when a client brings a dog to me to teach a dog bred to naturally behave a certain way to do the opposite. You haven't seen a real pointer till you seen a well bred EP.
> 
> /Paul


Haha. You got that right! I have never walked up to a fine EP locked down and rigid from tail to nose and not been impressed with it...hundreds and hundreds of times i have seen it, it is always a striking site. I would also add that an mature AA pointer that has been conditioned and "roaded" on a regular basis since its derby campaign is the extreme example of canine athleticism. Every muscle toned and ripped, purposeful in motion and able to run a big 3 hr race.......man I love to watch a fine EP!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Y'all mean like this?


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> Y'all mean like this?
> 
> View attachment 17071


No matter what your favorite breed of dog is, that is beautiful!!


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

Agreed! I love to see any dog that has reached a high level of competence in its purpose...shepherds, hunting breeds, no matter. That is a conditioned canine athlete...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Y'all mean like this?
> 
> View attachment 17071


i prefer one pointing the bird not watching it fly away


/Paul


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If you could see what's not in the photo, there is a steep bank full of rocks and brush just to the right....the dog was locked on a bird about twenty feet above his head, uphill.


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## Randy Moore (Aug 4, 2010)

What a nice hunting machine


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