# Question about honor



## ChrisRobt (Apr 5, 2005)

In a senior test this weekend, the honor dog was a bit behind me and to the left; s/he loudly barked/howled/cried as the birds went down and I sent my dog. My Monty is extremely focused and did not seem bothered by the commotion, but I was. I'd guess an inexperienced or younger dog may have been disturbed by the racket. How do the judges feel about this? If my dog had turned towards the honor dog, would this have been interference?


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

From the rule book:

Section 10. In Junior, Senior and Master Hunting
Tests, a dog shall come tractably at heel and sit promptly
at the point designated by its handler and remain quietly
where placed until given further orders. Dogs that
bark or whine on line, in a blind or while retrieving shall
be scored low in Trainability. *Loud and prolonged barking
or whining is sufficient cause to justify grading a
dog “0” in Trainability.*


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## Laureen (Jun 26, 2005)

*Honor*

If the running dog were distracted, the howling from honor dog would have been interference. If the running dog did not mark well on the series and depending on what exactly was happening, I would consider rerunning it. 
In regards to the honoring dog, if it interfered then that would normally mean a zero. If the noise did not interfere with the running dog, I would mark it down quite a bit. But I would normally take the other trainability performance into account. It is a senior level, and if the trainability were good in other areas (walking to line, when running, blinds) and depending on what exactly I saw, I might give the honor dog a 2 to 4 on that aspect, and leave room for good trainability through the rest of the test to bring the dog to a pass. Or if it seemed as extreme as described, I would consider a zero.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Christine, is the extremely focused dog your referring to the dog that ran out of the holding blind without out you and prompted the "no here, heel" tirade that caused the judges to warn you about excessive loud yelling at the dog to regain control? I train the honor dog and his owner ran him. While he was louder than we let him be in training, he did not move an inch and his noise was below an acceptable level even in master. 

how you coming on teaching heel?

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Ouch! :shock:  



> If the noise did not interfere with the running dog, I would mark it down quite a bit.


How can you tell in advance of the dog actually running if the noise from the honor dog interfered with the running dog?

kg


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Christine, is the extremely focused dog your referring to the dog that ran out of the holding blind without out you and prompted the "no here, heel" tirade that caused the judges to warn you about excessive loud yelling at the dog to regain control? I train the honor dog and his owner ran him. While he was louder than we let him be in training, he did not move an inch and his noise was below an acceptable level even in master.
> 
> how you coming on teaching heel?
> 
> /Paul



Oh, good! The RTF Demo Derby! That's almost as good as the bus! :wink:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

As many here know, I believe a picture tells the best story. Here is the scenario as presented. Now keep in mind, I didn't have a very good view of the action as I was 15 feet away. Clearly Cindy (judge) was concerned with the extreme distraction coming from Dennis and Bruin. The working dog and handler both seem to be extremely distracted as well. I can't believe tragedies like this are allowed. Someone call the HT committee....

/Paul

I believe this first picture was taken while Cindy was explaining yelling at your dog was not allowed....


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

How come the WD handler isn't holding a gun?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Margo Ellis said:


> How come the WD handler isn't holding a gun?


I decided not to go there.

/Paul


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Oh  well neither will I then. Dogs "look" calm to me but then again I wasn't there, I was in Canada running a Finished test.

http://www.canadianhuntingdogs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

I particularly like the dark, camoflaged, or customary hunting attire.... :roll: 

kg


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

I'm with you, Keith, it looks like a "fun day" to me.... and where were the numerous decoys??


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Paul decided not to go there, so I honored his wish since he was there.

kg


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

K G said:


> I particularly like the dark, camoflaged, or customary hunting attire.... :roll:
> 
> kg


Funny Troy and I just picked up on that too  and me of all people missing it, camo poster child that I am.

http://www.canadianhuntingdogs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Thats Bubba camo


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

If they'd have said it was a dove hunt, I could probably let it pass...... :wink: .....if they'd have used chukars, of course!  

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ok, lets not get caught up on camo and handlers guns for peats sake. Next thing you'll want to drop dogs for no going and handlers talking to dogs while the marks are going down....geez....

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

The first two issues involve the committee and their involvement in the testing. The last two involved the judges only....well, _primarily_.... :wink: 

kg


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

K G said:


> I particularly like the dark, camoflaged, or customary hunting attire.... :roll:



It would be awfully hard for that judge to require customary hunting clothing. Like judge, like handler, perhaps? 


Are we *sure* this was a real test? No gun, no decoys, no camo.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

CNBarnes said:


> K G said:
> 
> 
> > I particularly like the dark, camoflaged, or customary hunting attire.... :roll:
> ...


Well, actually her clothing was camo, there was decoys and most handlers did carry a gun but I think in the confusion of explaining to the newly approved master judge that yelling at your dog in that manner was unnaccetpable she got away with no gun. Didn't seem worth it to call no bird and make her go back for a stick...

Wasn't it you I believe that posted on here that to encourage the growth of the sport that leniancy was at times the "right" think to do?



/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

What part of her clothing was camo? Her jeans????? :shock: 

Never-hunted-ducks-in-a-grey-t-shirt-with-artwork-on-it regards,

kg


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> > Are we *sure* this was a real test? No gun, no decoys, no camo.
> 
> 
> Well, actually her clothing was camo,


This is camo??? :shock: :shock: 











As someone else told me in a private IM, maybe that is "Beach Camo"? If so, what was the game in the hunting senerio?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> What part of her clothing was camo? Her jeans????? :shock:
> 
> Never-hunted-ducks-in-a-grey-t-shirt-with-artwork-on-it regards,
> 
> kg


Hey its a mossyoak female tank top, take it up with mossyoak if you don't like their pattern. :lol: I think people in the morning were better about the clothing but when it hit 90+ the whole realistic duck hunt went a little south.

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

If it hit 90+, it (air temp) went a LOT south! :lol: 

I was speaking more about the handler, but the regs/guidelines make no distinction about who supposed to wear it or not wear it, judge or handler.

So at what point do we disregard that aspect of testing, as well as who does and doesn't handle a gun? :shock: Did the test have a marshal?

No wonder we still have people that are confused about what's required and what isn't when they run a test............ :? 

kg


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Actually, In my opinion, nobody pictured on line was appropriately dressed as the regulations and guidelines set forth.

That tank top isn't camo any more than the purple floweredy dress my grandmother used to wear, of course her dress did have an all over pattern of flowers and greenery but it wasn't considered camo or customary hunting attire.

What other regs and guidelines can we turn a blind eye to? pretty soon it isn't the hunt test game at all....

If it unseasonably warm, they do make camo or dark t-shirts. At least wearing that would be representative of trying to follow the rules.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, thank god marking is of primary importance. Guess we need to add a 5th section to the judging catagories regarding fashion....

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Alright, "Mr. Stickler for the rules".........what _other_ regs/guidelines can we punt in the case of (fill in the blank with any extenuating circumstance)????

kg


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

There are plenty of times when it is just too freaking hot to wear (the entire day) what is appropriate, but you can change your clothes for your breif line time in my opinion. As for this handler not holding a gun......WRONG. Each test is suppose to be the same for every dog at least as much as possible. 
Bottom line, the quesiton here was the honor dog making too much noise to bother the working dog. If the freaking judges said nothing to the HD handler then guess what, the dog wasn't making too much noise. 
Train your dogs to ignore as much as possible while they are on the line, no birds, HD that give voice, breaking dogs, and of course ugly hunting attire :roll: 
That last part was a joke.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> Alright, "Mr. Stickler for the rules".........what _other_ regs/guidelines can we punt in the case of (fill in the blank with any extenuating circumstance)????
> 
> kg


Are you the pot calling the kettle black? Stickler for rules? Are you saying that you drop every handler not wearing the perfect outfit, mishandles the coveted handlers stick, squeaks a word during the marks, is late on the whistle during a walkup, speaks too loudy to their dog on the honor, exposes an inch of leash in the back pocket, brushes up against thier dog during the test or heaven forbid manages to do two of these things? You must not hand out very many junior or senior ribbons...

Thank god you would never release a dog on "dog" since the rules specifically state the judge will release the dog on thier specific number. 

/Paul


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

K G said:


> Alright, "Mr. Stickler for the rules".........what _other_ regs/guidelines can we punt in the case of (fill in the blank with any extenuating circumstance)????


Keith,

From this earlier thread:Breaking for 1st time handler
We learned 1st time handlers don't have to wait for their number with Paul.  I don't think he fits the "Mr. Stickler for the rules" tag. :wink: 



Gun_Dog2002 said:


> You must not hand out very many junior or senior ribbons...


I think the AKC would be happy with a few less "handed out" and a few more EARNED.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> Are you saying that_....blah, blah, blah....._


Of _course_, I'm not...._but thanks for answering a question with a question._

:? ............................................



> Thank god you would never release a dog on "dog" since the rules specifically state the judge will release the dog on thier specific number.


I call the number. Nice example, though.... :roll: 

What else you got?

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> > Thank god you would never release a dog on "dog" since the rules specifically state the judge will release the dog on their specific number.
> 
> 
> I call the number. Nice example, though.... :roll:
> ...





> PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
> What you can't do is call the dog's name or tap the person to signal them to release the dog.
> 
> All else is good to go...number or "dog." I prefer to call the number, but occasionally will say "dog."
> ...


Well, I guess we have you caught up in contradicting yourself now. On those occasions when you say "dog" do you remove yourself from judging or just write yourself up and turn yourself into the HT committee demanding an investigation into misconduct or behaviour prejudicial to the sport? Or is it ok for you to ignore this rule? It appear to me that your willing to hammer new people and other judges in the sport over clothing, not enough decoys for your taste, missing one handler carrying a gun, yet when you admit to blatantly breaking a direct rule in the book you're willing to over look it. I believe the word you'll be looking for is hypocrisy.

/Paul
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=hypocrisy


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> Well, I guess we have you caught up in contradicting yourself now. On those occasions when you say "dog" do you remove yourself from judging or just write yourself up and turn yourself into the HT committee demanding an investigation into misconduct or behaviour prejudicial to the sport? Or is it ok for you to ignore this rule? It appear to me that your willing to *hammer* new people and other judges in the sport over clothing, not enough decoys for your taste, missing one handler carrying a gun, yet when you admit to blatantly breaking a direct rule in the book you're willing to over look it. I believe the word you'll be looking for is hypocrisy.


You got a problem with it? *WRITE ME UP!* :wink: 

Look forward to answering the charge regards,

kg

...oh, and for the record, I said _nothing_ about decoys (the fault list seems to grow)....looks like you've got some other people you need to take to task as well.....hypocrite _indeed_.... :?....and _still_ no answer to my question......

...and "*hammer*?" You've SEEN hammer, and that did not remotely approach "_hammer_," Mr. Sensitive.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I think this is a bunch of nonsense. If I'm the running dog I always ask the honor dog if he is ready. I want the honor dog to be successful just as I want my dog to be successful. I have honored dogs in which the handler was a bigger distraction than any dog. I'm not sure what the original question is asking. But keep in mind once in your career your dog can break in an honor. I remember my dog in his first senior all he had to do was honor to get his first leg. Well he broke and got to the bird before the working dog even left the line. The working dog's handler was a great guy with a good attitude. He said to me you should have stood on his tail.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Thanks for reminding me, Mike. That question I asked about the honor dog interfering (back on page 1) was not answered either....

...and it wasn't even a tough question...... :roll: 

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> You got a problem with it? *WRITE ME UP!* :wink:
> 
> Look forward to answering the charge regards,
> 
> kg


I can't. I really thought you of all people would have read the first sentence on page 2 of the dealing with misconduct book...



> It is the duty of the committee, not of the AKC, to deal initially with acts of alleged prejudicial conduct which occur during or in connection with a club’s event. The phrase “in connection with” means any incident
> where the parties involved are there because of the event; for example, at a dinner connected with the event, in a parking lot adjacent to the event grounds, at a hotel facility, or abuse of a hotel facility. Incidents
> occurring while traveling to, from and between events are not considered to be in connection with an event.


Since I was not *there *I cannot report you, even based on an admission of guilt. I’d rather go back and forth with you because at the end of the day, you’ll smile, call me a ******* SOB and look forward to tomorrow. 


/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> Ouch! :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll take it a bit further. How can you tell even after running that the dogs performance was impacted by the honor dog?

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> I can't. I really thought you of all people would have read the first sentence on page 2 of the dealing with misconduct book...


I said "write me up" to make a point, which I obviously succeeded in doing. At the end of the weekend, the "transgression" of calling "dog" rather than a number will hardly be of equal concern to some of the other issues brought forth in this thread....issues that any novice would have quessed would bring forth comments on RTF.

_Seriously._ :wink: 



> I'll take it a bit further. How can you tell even after running that the dogs performance was impacted by the honor dog?


Paul...you're starting to worry me....you have answered yet _another_ question with _another question_......but in the interest of giving those few folks that have followed this thread this far something of substance, I'll humor you.... :lol: 

Simply put, you can't....in _either_ case....not unless there is some sort of obvious movement or reaction from either _the working dog, the working dog's handler, or the judge(s)._ IMHO, I think the benefit of the doubt has to go to the working dog if the honor dog interferes in ANY way in excess of what is allowed by the regs/guidelines. If it gets to that point, you stop the test, ask the honor dog handler to put the dog on lead, tell the working dog to wait three dogs (or whatever the judges have agreed upon in this situation, a CRUCIAL pre-test discussion that should have already happened!), and move on.

Do they not SELL decoys up your way? :lol: :wink: 

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> > I can't. I really thought you of all people would have read the first sentence on page 2 of the dealing with misconduct book...
> 
> 
> I said "write me up" to make a point, which I obviously succeeded in doing. At the end of the weekend, the "transgression" of calling "dog" rather than a number will hardly be of equal concern to some of the other issues brought forth in this thread....issues that any novice would have quessed would bring forth comments on RTF.


So you answered your own question about which rules are important or not. 



K G said:


> _Seriously._ :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually Keith the reason I asked that question was because I believe we’re on the same page in thought regarding this subject. I was hoping to encourage folks to respond to your question. They do sell decoys. Apparently goose decoys because they were littered all over all the tests all weekend long. The views I posted only show the senior blind and don’t show the blasted goose decoys. Apparently someone got a really good deal on Outlaw silhouettes because they bought a truck load and gave them OHRC.

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> So you answered your own question about which rules are important or not.


Hardly. Seems like someone already beat me to which are the _most_ important....something about "marking" or some such nonsense..... 8)

So I'm guessing we agree on the "honor dog interference" question?

And didja notice how this thread "cleared out" when we got started? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Crowd control regards,
:wink: 
kg


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

*Re: Honor*



Laureen said:


> If the running dog were distracted, the howling from honor dog would have been interference. If the running dog did not mark well on the series and depending on what exactly was happening, I would consider rerunning it.


Once the Judges release the dog, the option to call "interference" is gone. You can't release the working dog to pick up one bird, get lost on the second, and then call interference from the noise factor. 

...if that's what you meant.

Eric


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Excellent observation, Eric.

There's only ONE time to call interference: when it _happens_.

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> > So you answered your own question about which rules are important or not.
> 
> 
> Hardly. Seems like someone already beat me to which are the _most_ important....something about "marking" or some such nonsense..... 8)
> ...


Ya, I know. that guy. I'm surprise other people post on our forum.

/Paul


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

We're still here, just sitting back and watching the ping-pong match. :wink:


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: Honor*



Eric Johnson said:


> Laureen said:
> 
> 
> > If the running dog were distracted, the howling from honor dog would have been interference. If the running dog did not mark well on the series and depending on what exactly was happening, I would consider rerunning it.
> ...


I assume you meant to have "for noise" appended to that statement. 

Obviously, there are other things the HD can do that are clearly interference that can happen after the dog has been released. Fwiw, I did not address the interference call on page 1/2 because I wasn't there. It's the judge's call to make. 


Paul calling that outfit by the judge to be "camo" is just silly. As I said, it belongs on a beach with a fruity drink with an umbrella, not at the line of a test. And for the record, I am *not* one who believes that thinks that "appropriate hunting attire" necessitates "camo". A solid Kacki colored shirt/shorts are just fine. Hell, if the shirt is Kacki, the pants can be blue-denim. 

I will also say I am far more likely to use a broad definition for what is "appropriate hunting attire" for a handler than I will for a judge. Judges are supposed to set a standard... the bar for them is higher.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> We're still here, just sitting back and watching the ping-pong match. :wink:


Don't be shy. KG and I can mult-task....

/Paul


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

I already stated My views, but I'll reiterate....

1. Eliminating either dog because of control issues and/or noise problems is the call of the judges.

2. Nobody pictured on the line was appropriately dressed for a hunt test.

3. The working dog handler holding a gun at senior is a requirement not an option.

Regulations and guidelines are there for a reason. If judges pick and choose what to pay attention to, confusion reigns.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Go ahead, Paul.....don't be a sexist....... 8) 

:wink: 

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> I already stated My views, but I'll reiterate....
> 
> 
> 2. Nobody pictured on the line was appropriately dressed for a hunt test.





> Chapter 3 Section 15. In keeping with the aim of simulated hunting conditions and situations, handlers, Judges, workers and other test participants shall be attired in dark or customary hunting attire that adequately reflect a waterfowling or upland hunting environment.


So I guess what your telling me is I can no longer hunt upland game in light colored clothing? Have you assumed this was a duck hunt? Wanna see the quail, pheasant and chuker photos's of Dennis in a white shirt?

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> Go ahead, Paul.....don't be a sexist....... 8)
> 
> :wink:
> 
> kg


Sir, I am many things of which we should not mention, but please keep your lude thoughts to yourself....

/Paul


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

no way that was a real test is there?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fowl hunter said:


> no way that was a real test is there?


Why would you question it?

/Paul


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

That is a duck hanging on that bird rack, is it not?


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

the attire and handler not having a gun


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

we had a fun test and had real ducks


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

First off..............In the picture posted (as usual) is Paul the she male wearing the T-shirt and jeans?

Second......in regards to releasing the working dog with a number.......................I can attest that KG did so for every dog he released at the N. Tx. FT. Likewise, I tried my best to do so out of respect for the dog/handler team. 

Get em' KG............I've got no dog in this fight. Although, is the working dog really a dog in that picture? What is that?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> That is a duck hanging on that bird rack, is it not?


No, its a pen raised bird of unknown breeding. Wanna know how many uploand scenarios i've had in the past 15 years that explained we were shooting pheasants and yet my dog brought back a duck? Wierd huh?

/Paul


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

isnt that what they call a designer dog....labradoodle


























just kidding I know its a poodle and probably a decent one.There is a MH I believe down here in tx.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> First off..............In the picture posted (as usual) is Paul the she male wearing the T-shirt and jeans?
> 
> Second......in regards to releasing the working dog with a number.......................I can attest that KG did so for every dog he released at the N. Tx. FT. Likewise, I tried my best to do so out of respect for the dog/handler team.
> 
> ...


Ken, i find your reference to a friend of mine uncalled for. I will ensure that her husband who is a member on RTF see's your comments regarding his wife. I suggest you stay in Texas my friend with your puny batting average if your gonna take pot shots at someones wife.

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fowl hunter said:


> isnt that what they call a designer dog....labradoodle
> 
> 
> 
> just kidding I know its a poodle and probably a decent one.There is a MH I believe down here in tx.


Actually its an Irish Water Spaniel.

/Paul


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I suppose I'm feeling brave today, here goes...

If you really want to get specific, then the HD's handler's lead is sticking out of his back pocket - good thing his heeling stick is obscured.

I've been sent back to the truck on more than one occasion for improper attire, be it too light a shirt, or (God forbid) my favorite blaze orange pheasant hunting cap! Yep, the same color that hidden bumpers and blind stakes are made of. In the case of my hat, I gladly took it off and let my silver locks wave (as they will) in the breeze. 

Even during a fun day, I believe in wearing what you'll be testing in. Try keeping on a black shirt in the late spring here.

Huntin' nekked from here on out regards,

Mark


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

2-Dogs said:


> I suppose I'm feeling brave today, here goes...
> 
> If you really want to get specific, then the HD's handler's lead is sticking out of his back pocket - good thing his heeling stick is obscured.
> 
> ...


Ya, i had discussion with him about putting the lead away. He was fine during the marks but they had to rebird so they had him walk offline on lead then come back to honor. He didn't get it put away all the way. I think the orange hat experience you've had is a little anal. 

/Paul


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## ChrisRobt (Apr 5, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Christine, is the extremely focused dog your referring to the dog that ran out of the holding blind without out you and prompted the "no here, heel" tirade that caused the judges to warn you about excessive loud yelling at the dog to regain control? I train the honor dog and his owner ran him. While he was louder than we let him be in training, he did not move an inch and his noise was below an acceptable level even in master.
> 
> how you coming on teaching heel?
> 
> /Paul


Paul, I know I have work to do on line manners and we will hopefully look better at our next test; at least he is silent. Interestingly, he minds as well (or not well) when I speak softly as when I speak loudly. This was my first test with him since junior and boy was he different from training!!!

Actually, the honor question had to do with what my options might be if I thought my dog had been interfered with due to excessive noise? Even though we were not much of a team coming to the line, Monty did sit quietly as the birds went down. Say I noticed his ears twitching backwards and some wavering attention due to the noise from the honor dog (I did not although his not taking the line to the memory bird makes me wonder), can I ask the judges for a rerun prior to sending my dog?

Christine


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## ChrisRobt (Apr 5, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> CNBarnes said:
> 
> 
> > K G said:
> ...


As for the clothing, I had just switched from my jeans to light blue shorts so I put my black rainpants on; I was going to ask the judges about my T shirt, but I noticed the handlers in front of me wearing light colored shirts; I was ready to put on my newly purchased black handling jacket. As for the gun, none of the handlers I saw in this water series carried a gun; in fact, I was discussing this with one of my training buddies as I fully expected to carry a gun and there was not one in the last holding blind. 

Who is responsible for "enforcing" the dress code? Some of my buddies think the marshall should do so (but the marshall at this series was a teenager who initially thought all he had to do was write the numbers on a board and watch the test). I think it is the responsibility of the judges...and to make sure there is a gun and that it is being carried.

Christine


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

ChrisRobt said:


> Paul, I know I have work to do on line manners and we will hopefully look better at our next test; at least he is silent. Interestingly, he minds as well (or not well) when I speak softly as when I speak loudly. This was my first test with him since junior and boy was he different from training!!!
> 
> Actually, the honor question had to do with what my options might be if I thought my dog had been interfered with due to excessive noise? Even though we were not much of a team coming to the line, Monty did sit quietly as the birds went down. Say I noticed his ears twitching backwards and some wavering attention due to the noise from the honor dog (I did not although his not taking the line to the memory bird makes me wonder), can I ask the judges for a rerun prior to sending my dog?
> 
> Christine


I didn't see any evidence your dog was affected in performance by the honor dog. I do believe he was aware of the other dog, just as he was aware of the gallery, the judges, the duck rack etc. He pretty much nailed the test. Was he a little out of control coming out of the blind, yes, like most of the senior dogs and frankly like most of the master dogs. I believe the line to the memory bird had more to do with the 100 yard water swim and easy option of cheating vs any other distraction. From a pure recourse action the judges own making the decision on interference and re-runs. You can ask but it will be up to them. Stuff happens in HT's that at times don't seem fair, you take the good with the bad. A buddy in master had a judge call a no bird because he didn't hear the pop and throw gun go off, although everyone else including the co-judge heard it and the dog clearly saw all 3 birds. He had to go and come back. Judges decision. Sometimes the dice go your way, like in the second series of the master 2 test where the judges designed a test that put dogs in no mans land if they gave in and cheated water, only to have the wind change and help every dog that cheated all 3 marks. Oops...

/Paul


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> Sir, I am many things of which we should not mention, but please keep your lude thoughts to yourself....


Just making sure you didn't eschew the chance to be an equal opportunity offender........ :wink: 



> Actually, the honor question had to do with what my options might be if I thought my dog had been interfered with due to excessive noise?


Were I one of the judges and you asked for a "no bird" and therefore a rerun because of the "noise" of the honor dog, it would be denied...and I would advise you that you should be thankful that you hadn't already been excused from running the test AT ALL for the noise YOU made trying to get the dog under control from the holding blind to the running line.



> Say I noticed his ears twitching backwards and some wavering attention due to the noise from the honor dog (I did not although his not taking the line to the memory bird makes me wonder), can I ask the judges for a rerun prior to sending my dog?


Any dog that is THAT sensitive to its surroundings probably shouldn't be running in a venue that promotes noise at every test level, especially at Senior then Master. I wouldn't hunt with a dog that was so high strung that it listened to the anticipatory whine of a companion's dog as the birds were coming into the dekes rather than being laser-focused on the birds as they worked their way into the spread.

Can you ask for a rerun? Sure. Just be prepared to make a decision when the judge calls your dog's number.

This sport ain't for _every_ dog regards,

kg


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## Laureen (Jun 26, 2005)

*Honor*

I didnt look up all the different sets of rules but AKC rules (ch 3 Section 12) describe interferance by an honor dog in terms of breaking. Then following, Section 13 references the judges discretion in regards to any situation creating an unfairness for the tested dog. So I rest my case on my answer to the original question. 

Sometimes you will see obvious interference (ie breaking and beating the running dog to the bird) and it results in stopping the test and a later rerun for the working dog. In lots of other situations there is a question in the judges mind as to whether there was interference created by various behaviours of the honor dog (such as controlled break). You cannot and should not stop the test for every little discrepancy that occurs. 

But an experienced judge can usually see whether the running dog may have been more destabilized or distracted than was immediately apparent. Obviously if he/she pins the marks, its not an issue. But if something significant was happening on the line, and the dog doesnt do well, and I am in doubt as to whether some unfairness was created, I give the benefit of the doubt to the running dog. And rerun.

So, in response to the question about whether the handler could ask for a rerun because their running dog flicked its ears, it would indicate a serious lack of confidence in the dogs capacity. But you can always ask, it is up to the judge. Its pretty unlikely they would say yes, lets do a rerun. But they might. You are normally better off to just run your dog and let the judges make those calls. Having a discussion with the judges after the birds go down doesnt help your dog with the marks if they say no, pick up the birds.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Who is responsible for "enforcing" the dress code? Some of my buddies think the marshall should do so . I think it is the responsibility of the judges...and to make sure there is a gun and that it is being carried.

Christine[/quote

Is evaluating dog work still part to being a HT judge? 
OR
Does costume design, props, choreography and scenerio writing determine the HT Emmy Awards? :wink: 

Tim


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Has your participation in the HT game changed any since we were last involved in such a discussion, Tim?

I thought I'd ask before I addressed your statement. :wink: 

kg


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ken Guthrie said:
> 
> 
> > First off..............In the picture posted (as usual) is Paul the she male wearing the T-shirt and jeans?
> ...


I wasn't refering to your friend........rather you.....

Unlike you, I don't make comments to folks I don't know.............


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I wasn't refering to your friend........rather you.....
> 
> Unlike you, I don't make comments to folks I don't know.............


Ken, I pretty much think people saw you take a picture of a lady and use it to try and make fun of me. Make fun of me all you want, but leave the ladies out of it. I don't know what you're trying to imply stating you don't make comments to folks you don't know so I'll just ignore that. 

Shouldn't you be jumping in and out of your boat with Dozer on the shore watching? I thought you'd be busy preparing him for your upcoming experience?



/Paul


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ken Guthrie said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't refering to your friend........rather you.....
> ...


There you go again.........smoking that wacky weed.

Why would I make fun of a lady I don't know? Since you know me so well you should be able to clear that up.

Trying to put an X on my back will only work in your fantasy world.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Shouldn't you be jumping in and out of your boat with Dozer on the shore watching? I thought you'd be busy preparing him for your upcoming experience?
> 
> 
> /Paul


Had to shop for some "hunting attire" instead. :wink:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> There you go again.........smoking that wacky weed.
> 
> Why would I make fun of a lady I don't know? Since you know me so well you should be able to clear that up.
> 
> Trying to put an X on my back will only work in your fantasy world.


I'll send you some of that wacky weed, it should help you write your acceptance speech. 

/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'll send you some of that wacky weed, it should help you write your acceptance speech.
> 
> /Paul


Don't bother............save it for when you run. :wink:


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ken Guthrie said:
> 
> 
> > First off..............In the picture posted (as usual) is Paul the she male wearing the T-shirt and jeans?
> ...


Not that Ken needs defending and barring the fact that Ken is mostly indefensible. 

I think he was referring to the guy running the yellow dog…if that in fact is your friend’s wife it is a poor picture and I am sure does not do her justice. 

Secondly, Ken had a major league batting average which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for myself.

Lastly, if people don’t have the stomach for public commentary than I suggest they take the debate to a private forum…i.e. email, phone calls etc. 


FYI, there are laws that keep Ken in Texas except for a few passes issued during the hunting season. :wink:


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Thanks P.J.,

Your truely a man who knows his Bulls---

:wink:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Thanks P.J.,
> 
> Your truely a man who knows his Bulls---
> 
> :wink:


I would suggest you two get a room.

/Paul


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Thanks P.J.,
> 
> Your truely a man who knows his Bulls---
> 
> :wink:


well you are truly indefensible and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. :wink:


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Paul..............

Will you please post pictures with your posts. It's just not the same without them. :roll:


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Paul..............
> 
> Will you please post pictures with your posts. It's just not the same without them. :roll:


Just for you....










/Paul


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

when did this Thread switch from dog honor to a man's honor?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Purpledawg said:


> when did this Thread switch from dog honor to a man's honor?


When Ken decided calling a good friend a she-male. Typical jerk behavior, making fun of how people look. 

/Paul


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

/Paul & Ken,

Please take any further discussion to PMs.

Thanks,
Vicky


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

:shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> /Paul & Ken,
> 
> Please take any further discussion to PMs.
> 
> ...


Thank you...........


----------



## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

ChrisRobt said:


> Actually, the honor question had to do with what my options might be if I thought my dog had been interfered with due to excessive noise? Even though we were not much of a team coming to the line, Monty did sit quietly as the birds went down. Say I noticed his ears twitching backwards and some wavering attention due to the noise from the honor dog (I did not although his not taking the line to the memory bird makes me wonder), can I ask the judges for a rerun prior to sending my dog?



You can always ask, but in general, if the WD doesn't look back at the distraction, my opinion is that the judges are not going to consider it to be interference.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

ChrisRobt said:


> Who is responsible for "enforcing" the dress code? Some of my buddies think the marshall should do so (but the marshall at this series was a teenager who initially thought all he had to do was write the numbers on a board and watch the test). I think it is the responsibility of the judges...and to make sure there is a gun and that it is being carried.



The HT committee and/or marshal should remind them if they are doing something amiss, but as you witnessed, that person may not be knowledgeable enough to do it. 

But in the end, it boils down to the judges - they *HAVE* to know the rules and be willing to enforce it. After all, they are the ones that sign a document saying they will abide by the rules (the judge's affirmation).


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## ChrisRobt (Apr 5, 2005)

CNBarnes said:


> ChrisRobt said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, the honor question had to do with what my options might be if I thought my dog had been interfered with due to excessive noise? Even though we were not much of a team coming to the line, Monty did sit quietly as the birds went down. Say I noticed his ears twitching backwards and some wavering attention due to the noise from the honor dog (I did not although his not taking the line to the memory bird makes me wonder), can I ask the judges for a rerun prior to sending my dog?
> ...


Thanks for a straightforward, non critical asnwer to my original question...


----------



## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

Paul
Cindy asked me to tell you not to post pictures of her ever again on the web. :shock: 

Also Paul check your PM.

For the rest of you sorry here in the Pacific Northwest we do not always dress per the rules in camo or dark clothing. For those that do not know me and my wife Cindy we can be forgiven for the way we dress. Most that know us and what we give back into this sport will let us dress the way we want. I'll make sure if running or judging a hunt test outside of the Northwest we will dress per the AKC Hunt Test Dress Code.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

AQUADOG said:


> Paul
> Cindy asked me to tell you not to post pictures of her ever again on the web. :shock:
> 
> Also Paul check your PM.
> ...


Sorry Bryant, and especially to Cindy. My focus was on the actual topic at hand and the fact Dennis had been thrown under the bus. I brain farted the fact that this board is full of people willing to attack every little aspect of everything not related to the topic at hand and that a full blown attack on Cindy would ensue. I'm truly sorry I put Cindy in the focus.

/Paul


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

Paul
All is forgiven.

I remember the time in Salem when a handler had a problem the way she was dress out behind a holding blind at a pop and throw station on a 100 deg plus day. Ms Bubba told the handler he could go out and ask her to carry up but the club would not be responsible for his Hospital cost.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

AQUADOG said:


> For the rest of you sorry here in the Pacific Northwest we do not always dress per the rules in camo or dark clothing. For those that do not know me and my wife Cindy we can be forgiven for the way we dress. Most that know us and what we give back into this sport will let us dress the way we want. I'll make sure if running or judging a hunt test outside of the Northwest we will dress per the AKC Hunt Test Dress Code.


I'm sorry, but this doesn't sit well with me as an AKC Hunt Test participant and judge. I can and do appreciate all that anyone gives back into the sport, but why does that mean that they don't have to abide by the official Rules & Regulations or that they should be allowed to "dress the way" they want? What allows the Pacific Northwest participants in AKC hunt test not to dress per the rules? 

I would think that those that are giving back by holding office in their retriever club, judging for their club or other clubs, helping new people get started, etc, are the people that should be setting the example of what to do and not to do.

Vicky


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> AQUADOG said:
> 
> 
> > For the rest of you sorry here in the Pacific Northwest we do not always dress per the rules in camo or dark clothing. For those that do not know me and my wife Cindy we can be forgiven for the way we dress. Most that know us and what we give back into this sport will let us dress the way we want. I'll make sure if running or judging a hunt test outside of the Northwest we will dress per the AKC Hunt Test Dress Code.
> ...


Don't have a dog in this fight but after reading what your concerned about I thought the same thing.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Although I've never participated or witnessed a Hunt Test or like venue, it seems there is continuous debate on what's acceptable attire.

Question................

Why not come up with an official uniform?

You know, little league umpires must buy from a particular store........

HS athletics use a particular company................

Maybe Shayne could start another business.

That way, there would be no questions asked. Everyone wears the same shirt, pants, jacket, ect.

Would that solve any problems?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sadly, folks seem to be mired in minutia regarding light camo and gray shirts in a senior test. Not one person has asked if the tests as they pertain to judging dog work were of any quality. Why is that? Why so much focus on such a small aspect of the actual test? Hell if all it takes to pass a HT is wearing a camo shirt, then I'd go farther than that and go with camo boxers and socks....

/Paul


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Ken, 

I've always thought that the Rule/Regulation regarding clothing was pretty fair. It allows dark or customary hunting attire. To me, this makes it possible for someone with limited funds to go into their closet and pull out a dark shirt and pants and still be able to play.

Most of my camo is for winter hunting. With the current rule/regulation, I have options of dark clothing rather than spend more money on summer hunting attire. 

Vicky


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Paul,

I understand where your coming from, and I agree the important things are more often overlooked........

But to excuse a specific rule shouldn't happen either.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

So, nobody hunts upland game in 90 degree weather in anything but black? Geez, I guess some of the responses on this board are the result of heatstroke....)

/Paul


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Sadly, folks seem to be mired in minutia regarding light camo and gray shirts in a senior test. Not one person has asked if the tests as they pertain to judging dog work were of any quality. Why is that? Why so much focus on such a small aspect of the actual test? Hell if all it takes to pass a HT is wearing a camo shirt, then I'd go farther than that and go with camo boxers and socks....
> 
> /Paul


Paul,

Personally, I don't care......however, the official rules and regulations set out what is allowed, therefore if someone wants to participate, they should abide by the rules and regulations. When I sign the Judge's Affirmation form, I'm stating that I know the rules and "agree to judge in accordance with those rules". I can't pick and chose which rules to enforce or ignore.

Vicky


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Paul,
> 
> I understand where your coming from, and I agree the important things are more often overlooked........
> 
> But to excuse a specific rule shouldn't happen either.


I agree with that, but the rules allow for customary hunting attire, upland and waterfowl. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't wear the upland clothing in the waterfowl scenario or vice versa. Thats why we often get ducks in the upland pheasant hunting scenario. Basically the intent was to prevent the white coat scenario that we see in FT's today. 

/Paul


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So, nobody hunts upland game in 90 degree weather in anything but black? Geez, I guess some of the responses on this board are the result of heatstroke....)
> 
> /Paul


There is "customary" hunting attire for upland game which would be acceptable under the current AKC Rules and Regulations.

Black not always required regards,
Vicky


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Well like anything else in life............

When you give a group or individual an inch..........

They will take a mile. :wink:


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

everybody probably knows where i stand on the clothing issue. there's NOBODY that can afford an entry fee and travel expenses who can't afford basic hunting attire.

the "dress code" was not an issue when i got into HT's in the early 90's. a much larger percentage of the participants were frequent hunters in those days. as the venue's popularity took off the makeup of the paticipant population started to change. these days, i would be surprised if more than 50% of the MH titled dogs hunt more than a few days per year, and those mostly at preserves. when a large percentage of owners,handlers and judges are not actively involved in hunting, things like proper attire are the first things to feel the culture change.

are the dog's performances, on the whole, better today? absolutely, so the testing and training are improving. that can't be argued.

i am, however, very concerned that selective regulation enforcement will hurt us eventually. -paul


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

Vicky in the past I have looked at your post as very good and informational. 

Sorry but I do not and nor do the folks in and around the northwest agree 100% with the rules on attire. My wife has for many years dress this way and in front of many AKC field rep and not once has she been told to change. The average handler comes to the line this time of year in blue jeans or shorts and a t-shirt other than white or light color.

As a boy growing up in Texas I hunted in blue jeans and a white T, no one told me to go put on dark or Camo. As a young adult the only thing I added was the beer cooler along with the white T.  

Please take this post back to the issue on the honor dog behavior and let how Hunt Test Folks in the Northwest dress alone. 

Can’t we all just get along?

See what you started Paul
:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

AQUADOG said:


> Vicky in the past I have looked at your post as very good and informational.
> 
> Sorry but I do not and nor do the folks in and around the northwest agree 100% with the rules on attire. My wife has for many years dress this way and in front of many AKC field rep and not once has she been told to change. The average handler comes to the line this time of year in blue jeans or shorts and a t-shirt other than white or light color.
> 
> ...


I've judged many times in denim or dark colored shorts, trying to keep with the rule/regulation of dark clothing. However, when we dove hunt, you'd find me in light colored clothing. During the early goose hunts, you'd probably find me in the pit with jeans on. The only time I actually wear camo is when I'm in an open duck blind or boat. Being the only female that normally goes with the guys, I've never heard any complaints...and, believe me, these guys are straight-forward enough that they would have something to say if there was a problem.

So, I don't always agree with the attire rule/regulation, but when I'm judging, I've agreed to judge according to the current rules/regulations. 

I've got some real pretty colored clothes I could wear if I didn't have to wear dark or customary hunting attire!!!  But, until the rule/regulation is changed, the only events I can wear them at are FT, SRS, WRC, etc. 

:lol: :wink: :lol: 

Wanna get the rule changed so that we East Coast people could join "Hunt Test Folks in the Northwest" in attire?  BTW, jeans are normally dark enough. 

Getting back to the original question.....
IF the vocal behavior of the Honor Dog caused the Working Dog to be distracted to the point of interference, the test would be stopped, the Working Dog & handler told to leave the line and wait three dogs before coming back for a re-run, the Honor Dog would be dropped, placed on lead to honor the next Working Dog. IF I thought that the vocalization would continue, even on lead, for the next Working Dog, I would ask for a "bye dog" to assume the Honor position on lead.

Vicky


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

> Getting back to the original question.....
> IF the vocal behavior of the Honor Dog caused the Working Dog to be distracted to the point of interference, the test would be stopped, the Working Dog & handler told to leave the line and wait three dogs before coming back for a re-run, the Honor Dog would be dropped, placed on lead to honor the next Working Dog. IF I thought that the vocalization would continue, even on lead, for the next Working Dog, I would ask for a "bye dog" to assume the Honor position on lead.


I totally agree with this I have in the past removed a master dog and had a Bye Honor Dog for just this reason. As for this past weekend’s test I talked to the judge which after being married to her for 27 years is a requirement I must follow no matter what attire she is in, she feels the honor dog didn't interfere and did have a talk with the working dogs handler about the way they came to the line. 

Funny I have received a couple of phone calls this morning from those in charge of the test about this post and where this post was heading. One was from a hunt test committee member who was there during this issue and he saw it the same way the judges did.

So Vicky we will have to have you out our way to show us the proper way to dress for a hunt test.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Sounds like an AKC representative should take a little trip to the NW to make sure all is well and rules are abided by. :wink:


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

I was surprised this past weekend with the double hitter that we did not see one I can't remember a year one was not here to keep watch over us. Maybe they know there is no hope for us and how we dress.

http://petscapesphoto.com/petscapes...HRC Master A 5-12-07 A.M/slides/MP9Z8818.html

Okay is this proper attire for a handler??


----------



## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

I am old and blonde but .... using the excuse that "this is how I go upland hunting" is lame....Seems like if you are dressed for an upland hunt, you should have your regulation Safety Orange on. At least that is mandatory on the upland hunts I know about. 

But the idea that regulations and guidelines are ignored as standard operating proceedure just amazes me! If we are not trying to keep the game on the up and up, why bother doing any of it at all?

And yes the pictures of you and the many other handlers in the dark clothing handling dogs in a test, show that you guys out there in the west DO know how it is supposed to look. Y'all have been watching too many wild west movies, though as around here we don't shoot shotguns from the hip or arm pit and definately not one handed.


----------



## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Vicky Trainor said:


> AQUADOG said:
> 
> 
> > For the rest of you sorry here in the Pacific Northwest we do not always dress per the rules in camo or dark clothing. For those that do not know me and my wife Cindy we can be forgiven for the way we dress. Most that know us and what we give back into this sport will let us dress the way we want. I'll make sure if running or judging a hunt test outside of the Northwest we will dress per the AKC Hunt Test Dress Code.
> ...



Thank you Vicki - you took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So, nobody hunts upland game in 90 degree weather in anything but black? Geez, I guess some of the responses on this board are the result of heatstroke....)



Paul, 

Normally I really like your posts, not just because they are funny, but because you often make alot of sense.

But you're not making any sense here. 

The rule for camo and customary clothing is just that - *A RULE*. It is not something that can be dismissed just because someone doesn't like it, or thinks it's inconvenient, or (pick a reason).

It also means the clothing must be customary *FOR THE TEST BEING RUN*. That means if the senerio is an upland test, then by all means you should be wearing blaze orange hats and vests. If the senerio is a snow goose hunt, then you should wear long, white lab coats. And if the scenerio is a duck hunt, you should wear camo or dark clothing.

Period. 

And it goes back to *WHY* we run hunt tests. For that, I quote the rule book:
Chapter 3, Section 1. The purpose of a Hunting Test for
Retrievers is to test the merits of and evaluate the abilities
of Retrievers in the field in order to determine their
suitability and ability as hunting companions. *Hunting
Tests must, therefore, simulate as nearly as possible
the conditions met in a true hunting situation.*

The "true hunting situation" includes what the handler and judges are wearing.


As I said, I am far from someone who wants to take the rule to extreames, and will be more than happy to let the line get pushed. But if you don't show up to a test I'm judging at least somewhat close to the intent of the rule, we'll never know what the dog work will look like because you won't get to the line.

If that doesn't suit you, perhaps you should run another venue. I hear there is one where you can wear a white coat anytime you like....


(relax field trialers, that is not a slam on trials)


----------



## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

AQUADOG said:


> Vicky in the past I have looked at your post as very good and informational.
> 
> Sorry but I do not and nor do the folks in and around the northwest agree 100% with the rules on attire.



Does not matter.

I will fully admit that there are rules I don't agree with. No-go on a blind, for example (personally, I feel that is somewhere between honest confusion to a minor fault). Dropping a bird and taking 1 step towards a diversion is another.

But when I play the game as either a participant or a judge, I follow those rules. I would consider it unethical to do any less.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Sounds like an AKC representative should take a little trip to the NW to make sure all is well and rules are abided by. :wink:


They visit out here a lot actually. I had rep sit right behind all weekend last year when I judged a master Sauvie Island


/Paul


----------



## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

AQUADOG said:


> I was surprised this past weekend with the double hitter that we did not see one I can't remember a year one was not here to keep watch over us. Maybe they know there is no hope for us and how we dress.
> 
> http://petscapesphoto.com/petscapes...HRC Master A 5-12-07 A.M/slides/MP9Z8818.html
> 
> Okay is this proper attire for a handler??



His attire is fine, for an AKC test. But I see on the header that this picture was taken at an HRC test. HRC rules are even more picky about attire than AKC rules.

*On the other hand,* his gun handling is atrocious. 1 shot from someone who mounted a gun under their arm like that would leave a really bad bruise. And in an HRC test, that could get you and your dog DQ'd. In fact, *every* finished judge I know (and I are one), would either give you a single warning to shoulder your gun, or simply have you leash your dog right there.


Edit: I'll take it back - the TEST is an AKC test. The club is an HRC club.
Still, it's pretty bad gun handling even for an AKC test.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

CNBarnes said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > So, nobody hunts upland game in 90 degree weather in anything but black? Geez, I guess some of the responses on this board are the result of heatstroke....)
> ...


I'm sorry I disappointed but frankly I see clothing as a lesser item in the grand scheme of things. Letter of the law vs spirit of the law takes good judgement. I have done and watched this weekend a senior handler be warned on the first two marks not to talk during the marks. By rule she could have been dropped right there. In master she would have. The judges let her continue and then did drop her on the 4th mark for talking again. Hard lesson. There are many ways to drop dogs/handlers and point to the letter of the law as justification but frankly I don't see that as the main purpose of the game. 

/Paul


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

CNBarnes
Here is a picture of a handler in you area heading to the line to run the BCSRC Fall Hunt Test; I do not see his attire any different than the Pacific Northwest. He is in blue jean shorts and a light color shirt most our judges would ask this handler to get a darker one on the next time he comes to the line, but I see no camo here. 

Sorry if the young lady in the chair belongs to you I didn't want to crop the picture to show the attire.


http://www.bcsrc.org/who/gallery/03Pics/fakctest.Amy.marshal.Dennis.run.jpg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

AQUADOG said:


> CNBarnes
> Here is a picture of a handler in you area heading to the line to run the BCSRC Fall Hunt Test; I do not see his attire any different than the Pacific Northwest. He is in blue jean shorts and a light color shirt most our judges would ask this handler to get a darker one on the next time he comes to the line, but I see no camo here.
> 
> Sorry if the young lady in the chair belongs to you I didn't want to crop the picture to show the attire.
> ...


Look at the handler in this pic, same test......so much for practice what you preach...










/Paul


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Paul, Can you post a picture of a monkey and a football? HPW


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

AQUADOG said:


> CNBarnes
> Here is a picture of a handler in you area heading to the line to run the BCSRC Fall Hunt Test; I do not see his attire any different than the Pacific Northwest. He is in blue jean shorts and a light color shirt most our judges would ask this handler to get a darker one on the next time he comes to the line, but I see no camo here.
> 
> Sorry if the young lady in the chair belongs to you I didn't want to crop the picture to show the attire.
> ...



I never said it had to be camo, just appropriate hunting attire. That shirt is one that many, MANY people hunt in down here. Including duck hunt.

You (and Paul) don't see a difference between tan and WHITE?


Fwiw, I looked at EVERY picture in that gallery, and only saw 1 that was marginal (the lady in all blue) and 1 that was clearly out of line (the older guy in the stripped shirt).


Yes, the daughter is mine. My how they grow!
http://www.txbarnes.com/Bethany's Graduation/Amy/


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Oh no............................................................................................ 8) 

Discretion is the better part of valor regards,

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> Paul, Can you post a picture of a monkey and a football? HPW












Your welcome

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

_Whew_..............  

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

CNBarnes said:


> AQUADOG said:
> 
> 
> > CNBarnes
> ...



So back up the bus a second. The judge in the picture I posted had a light tan top with large leaf pattern. It was not white. If you want argue colors then take it up with my wife and good luck with that...

/Paul


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

CNBarnes
As for the shotgun it was a walkup which I do in hunting the same way both hands are on the gun held low and out of site until the birds are in the air. So yes it would be up at my shoulder when I shot but in this walkup like all AKC walkups my buddy out in the field shot the birds for me so my gun never came up to a shooting position. :idea: 

Yes the pictures are of an AKC hunt test in fact this whole tread is about a Honoring dog issues in a AKC hunt test and not the attire of the handlers and judges. 

I do play the HRC game once in a while and yes we don't do a lot of camo there either and yes we shot a popper gun at the line in those test so the gun is shouldered.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Doesn't look like a football' & the monkey is not doing to it what I always heard would be funny to witness


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Doesn't look like a football' & the monkey is not doing to it what I always heard would be funny to witness


Fine, here's a monkey holding a football....happy now...










/Paul


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

CNBarnes
Congratulation’s too your daughter
My youngest daughter just finished her first year in Collage; problem with them growing up is they want to move out into the big old world without their daddy there to protect them.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Look at the handler in this pic, same test......so much for practice what you preach...










/Paul[/quote]

Paul that is me in the straw hat, camo shirt judging a Junior test notice the handler holding her dog's collar. The handler is wearing Khaki as is customary in Texas when you are dove hunting and that was the scenario for the day. By the way it was way back in time, maybe 2003.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> /Paul


Paul that is me in the straw hat, camo shirt judging a Junior test notice the handler holding her dog's collar. The handler is wearing Khaki as is customary in Texas when you are dove hunting and that was the scenario for the day. By the way it was way back in time, maybe 2003.[/quote]


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Paul posted this picture:










/Paul[/quote]

Paul that is me in the straw hat, camo shirt judging a Junior test notice the handler holding her dog's collar. The handler is wearing Khaki as is customary in Texas when you are dove hunting and that was the scenario for the day. By the way it was way back in time, maybe 2003.


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

Did you fall asleep on the submit key :lol: :lol:


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

no, some times I stutter, but there isn't a rule against that.
:lol:


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

By golly she made her point!  

She's _good_ at that regards,:wink: 

kg


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Why is that? Why so much focus on such a small aspect of the actual test? Hell if all it takes to pass a HT is wearing a camo shirt,
> 
> /Paul


because it's not what they can pass you for, it's another little tiny insignificant thing that has nothing to do with how well your dog runs thing that they can drop you for.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

duckdawg27 said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > Why is that? Why so much focus on such a small aspect of the actual test? Hell if all it takes to pass a HT is wearing a camo shirt,
> ...



For the record, I have never dropped anyone for incorrect attire. I always have a camo jacket at the line that I give to them to put on. 

Now I suppose if someone refused to put it on, THEN I might drop them


Setting the record straight regards,


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

If I were ever to be dropped AFTER THE FACT for improper attire, I'd file a complaint with the HT committee post haste.

There is NOTHING in the regs/guidelines that allows for attire to be judged or considered when coming up with a dog's scores. The only thing that is REMOTELY close is what would be considered to be a training aid that could be worn at the running line.

That said (and before Paul has a stroke.... :wink: ), if a judge has an issue with what I'm wearing to the line, he/she/they had best address it BEFORE I run. Unless they're being UTTERLY ridiculous, I'm likely to acquiesce to their request since they're holding the book and I haven't run yet. If there were ANY question about my apparel, I'd ask for an opinion BEFORE they called my dog's number "to the line." If there were disagreement, I'd ask for permission to leave the holding blind and get a member of the HT committee there for an opinion.

Any effect that apparel would have on my participation in the test needs to be addressed BEFORE I call for the birds.

kg


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Anyone ever set up a SNOW GOOSE hunt at a HT? 8) 

I snow goose hunt all the time, and they're usually 300-400 yards out when they get shot . . .

JK,

Sondra


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

This is my all-time fav-o-rite AKC Hunt Test Regulation & Guideline:

(Chapter 3) Section 22. "_In sanctioned Hunting Tests, any
Sections of these Regulations except those pertaining
to gun safety may be relaxed or eliminated, but all
entrants shall be advised in what respects this is true."_

Minding the minutiae regards,

Mark


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

2-Dogs said:


> "_In *sanctioned* Hunting Tests_


_

?????

I don't get it._


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Me neither............. :? 

kg


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Me neither, but in preparation for an upcoming AKC Judges Seminar, I've been re-reading the rules. This is one of the many highlighted sections I hope to ask about.

Maybe too many contracts in my career have created a cynical eye, but if you read carefully you'll find there are some real gems within...


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

I think I know where you're going with this.

My suggestion is that you perhaps consider a "trial run" on some of those questions here _before_ you ask them at a seminar.

Forewarned is forearmed regards,

kg


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## AQUADOG (Sep 15, 2004)

K G


> If I were ever to be dropped AFTER THE FACT for improper attire, I'd file a complaint with the HT committee post haste.
> 
> There is NOTHING in the regs/guidelines that allows for attire to be judged or considered when coming up with a dog's scores. The only thing that is REMOTELY close is what would be considered to be a training aid that could be worn at the running line.


I can't agree more with this statement well said.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

K G said:


> If I were ever to be dropped AFTER THE FACT for improper attire, I'd file a complaint with the HT committee post haste.
> 
> There is NOTHING in the regs/guidelines that allows for attire to be judged or considered when coming up with a dog's scores. The only thing that is REMOTELY close is what would be considered to be a training aid that could be worn at the running line.
> 
> ...


Clothes as a training aid, now that was close....

/Paul


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## Guest (May 31, 2007)

msdaisey said:


> Anyone ever set up a SNOW GOOSE hunt at a HT? 8)
> 
> I snow goose hunt all the time, and they're usually 300-400 yards out when they get shot . . .
> 
> ...


I ran one that a friend of mine judged and we had white coats in the holding blind, a gazillion texas rags and it was a ton of fun... Marks were still within range, but very cleverly organized.


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## Guest (May 31, 2007)

Doug Main said:


> 2-Dogs said:
> 
> 
> > "_In *sanctioned* Hunting Tests_
> ...


_

Don't we run LICENSED hunt tests every weekend? Aren't sanctioned hunt tests the ones "for kicks"?

Or am I confusing with field trial terminology?_


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## ChrisRobt (Apr 5, 2005)

CNBarnes said:


> duckdawg27 said:
> 
> 
> > Gun_Dog2002 said:
> ...


Many years ago I ran in a UKC test and they had a camo jacket on the line for anyone who didn't have one; this would certainly solve the "dress code" problem.

I have seen many people wearing light khaki shirts at AKC events and feel these are as light as the blue t-shirt I was wearing (remember I said earlier I was going to ask the judges about my t-shirt before going to the line, but noticed many handlers ahead of me wearing light colored shirts so did not do so). Is Khaki considered dark hunting attire?


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Doug Main said:
> 
> 
> > 2-Dogs said:
> ...


_
You're right Kristie, the sanctioned don't count toward titles. We run Licensed or Member Hunting Tests for titles. :wink:_


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Sanctioned tests are what a club holds when they are seeking a license to run AKC tests. A club must run one and then depending on how this turns out, they are either licensed or they run another sanctioned test.

The results of sanctioned tests are do not count toward titles. In HRC, I think these used to be called preliminary tests.

Eric


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## brian lewis (Jun 6, 2005)

*handlers attire*

I've read through most of this and have discussed proper attire on occasion before...

But how in the hell can a judge drop a dog cause a handler didn't have what he/she considered proper attire? 

DON'T GET IT 


judge the dog, regards
Brian Lewis


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I agree that you cant and shouldnt drop a dog because of what the handler is wearing but how can you or what do you do if a handler comes to the line in light to white shirt?Do you just not llet them get to the line if they are wearing it?


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## ChrisRobt (Apr 5, 2005)

fowl hunter said:


> I agree that you cant and shouldnt drop a dog because of what the handler is wearing but how can you or what do you do if a handler comes to the line in light to white shirt?Do you just not llet them get to the line if they are wearing it?


I think this is where the marshall steps in; I've asked spectators to cover their white shirts at tests before and would have asked handlers to wear dark shirts for this test as well. The judges should be allowed to judge and a good marshall takes care of the non judging stuff. At this particular test the marshall was a kid who didn't have any idea what he should do and we frequently empty holding blinds (but some of that was due to the heat and handlers were in the shade). One of my training buddies was upset as the gallery was seated behind the test (you can see this from Paul's photos) and was concerned that people moving around behind the line might interfere with the WD. I didn't watch everyone closely so can't comment on that.


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## brian lewis (Jun 6, 2005)

I've not judged a bunch. Only master tests. I don't remember paying a whole lot of attention to what people were wearing. I'd say NO WHITE in a hunt test. Seems like a blatent dis-obedience to the rules. 

Light tan is a hunting color, kakhi is a hunting color. Light green is a hunting color. I don't think I've ever worn black long sleeve jacket while hunting.


I'm more interested in what a gallery may be wearing to distract a dog than what a handler is wearing. 

but bottom line is if a dog can't do my test then a white long sleeve shirt is not gonna help him.

I basically believe DOG ABILITY COMES FIRST, TRAINABLITY COMES SECOND, TRY TO DRESS SOMEWHAT APPROPRIATE.

shoot em off and lets see what happens.


To answer your question, maybe ask him if he has something else to put on. Don't think I've ever heard of that being a problem.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

One time, I beat my dog behind the truck before I got to the line..........

The judge saw me out of the corner of his eye............

The dog ran the test and did great...........

I didn't get thrown out because the judges just "judged the dog". :wink: 

Catch my drift here folks........

Rules are rules.............PERIOD.

This other time........I had a few beers and was only slightly intoxicatied but I still drove home.

I was driving OK, but I still got pulled over. The cop suggested that I take a drunk test. I tested a little over the limit so the cop threw the cuffs on me.

When I asked...........why didn't you just judge how I was driving. I didn't get in a wreck.

Catch my drift here folks.............

Rules are rules..............PERIOD.

This other time, I was at a hunt test and I was wearing a clown suit.

Of coarse, I always act a clown while hunting. :wink: 

So I told the judge, I was wearing what I usually hunt in so just judge my damn dog.

Catch my drift here folks............

Rules are rules............


PERIOD

And these stories are fictional stories and only used as examples. 8)

And there is more to our dog games than just judging performance.........

Code, ethics, sportsmanship, ect.

I guess we should disregard all of that and just stick to judging dog performance. :lol:


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Thank you, Ken, for those examples.

Rules are there for a reason. The point here is not to drop the dogs but to maintain the atmosphere of the hunt. 

In our game, judges are to present their test as a hunting scenario by giving a plausable hunting situation where the birds are taken such that the test is laid out. Some people think that is dumb and unneccesary. 

Some people think it is unfair if they get a cripple instead of a dead bird and their dog doesn't recognize it as it's object to retrieve. Some people also think that birds are costly, hard to see with a dark background, and messy, so _maybe we should just throw bumpers_ .... after all it is just to show that the dog can go get something and bring it back, right?

The point is that is _*not*_ our game and does not follow the black and white rules. 

Too many of the rules are being ignored lately....I'm am disturbed by that. 

When judges do not uphold the rules as written and do the right thing, our game errodes. The Judges shape the game with their actions, mannerisms, and character. The judges are looked upon as the leaders in the sport. We must set the example and keep the game as true to form as possible.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Well said, Vicki.

kg


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## SloppyMouth (Mar 25, 2005)

*Re: handlers attire*



brian lewis said:


> But how in the hell can a judge drop a dog cause a handler didn't have what he/she considered proper attire?
> 
> DON'T GET IT
> 
> ...


Same way they can drop a dog in HRC if a handler doesn't put the safety back on the shotgun before putting it back in the rack.

It's written in the rules!


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

From the NAHRA rule book:

f. Handlers, bird boys, gunners, judges and others shall be required to wear camouflaged or appropriate clothing. Clubs hosting licensed Field Tests should be prepared to provide an appropriate covering for participating persons who do not come to the event with such clothing. 

Of course, it still needs to be enforced. HPW


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

in my opinion, the NAHRA rulebook is the clearest and most concise of the big 3. very few gray areas.

not enforcing the law, as a whole, is a problem in today's culture.

we are very quick to introduce laws/rules without regard to whether we have the means to enforce them.

in my opinion, non-compliance with the written rule in this case should be dealt with by disqualifying the handler, since they're the ones responsible,while allowing the dog(s) continue the test with a different handler.-paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> Same way they can drop a dog in HRC if a handler doesn't put the safety back on the shotgun before putting it back in the rack.
> 
> It's written in the rules!


Understood...but...the shotgun issue occurs _during_ the test. The apparel issue occurs _before_ the test starts.

It's all about the timing.

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> This other time, I was at a hunt test and I was wearing a clown suit.
> 
> And these stories are fictional stories and only used as examples. 8)


Right, fictional. What about this picture of you….











/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

You _just_ can't help it, can you............ :wink: 

TGIF regards,

kg


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

K G said:


> Well said, Vicki.
> 
> kg


What? You didn't like the way I said it?

:lol: :lol:


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

AQUADOG said:


> Paul
> Cindy asked me to tell you not to post pictures of her ever again on the web. :shock:
> 
> Also Paul check your PM.
> ...


I could've swore that was Cindy~ You guys are BOTH awsome and I agree that you guys put in a lot. At least you looked good Cindy..that's what matters, right...when you look good...the dog feels good!!! :lol:


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

msdaisey said:


> Anyone ever set up a SNOW GOOSE hunt at a HT? 8)
> 
> I snow goose hunt all the time, and they're usually 300-400 yards out when they get shot . . .



Correction - they are 40-50 yards out when shot. They are 300-400 yards out when they hit the ground.

Nit picking regards,


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

ChrisRobt said:


> I have seen many people wearing light khaki shirts at AKC events and feel these are as light as the blue t-shirt I was wearing (remember I said earlier I was going to ask the judges about my t-shirt before going to the line, but noticed many handlers ahead of me wearing light colored shirts so did not do so). Is Khaki considered dark hunting attire?


Keep in mind, birds can see colors.

Ergo, blue denium is not appropriate for hunting. But Khaki very well might be (and often is where I live).


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

fowl hunter said:


> I agree that you cant and shouldnt drop a dog because of what the handler is wearing but how can you or what do you do if a handler comes to the line in light to white shirt?Do you just not llet them get to the line if they are wearing it?



See my (and Keith's) comment about having a camo jacket at the line for such cases.

Preventative medicine is good for judges regards,


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ken Guthrie said:
> 
> 
> > This other time, I was at a hunt test and I was wearing a clown suit.
> ...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Guthrie said:


> One time, I beat my dog behind the truck before I got to the line..........
> The judge saw me out of the corner of his eye............
> The dog ran the test and did great...........
> I didn't get thrown out because the judges just "judged the dog". :wink:
> ...


Ken,
Great post!
Ken Bora


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

CNBarnes said:


> msdaisey said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone ever set up a SNOW GOOSE hunt at a HT? 8)
> ...


Actually, they are really out there. . .and they look like mallards when the dog brings them back. :wink: :lol:


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2007)

msdaisey said:


> CNBarnes said:
> 
> 
> > msdaisey said:
> ...


ahhh, just like the dove hunts where the doves look just like mallards, too. Got it! How about if they inflated the mallards and sprayed them white?


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## Laureen (Jun 26, 2005)

*hunting attire*

It is up to the judge to manage the test. So from my perspective, you dont let someone run who is not appropriately dressed. Normally this is either a novice or just someone hurrying/not thinking. 

This is a fun sport, non competitive, and there is no reason to go ahead and let them do something incorrect. If you do let them run that, because you didnt notice in time then just tell the marshall your message to all handlers and let them take care of it. Note: if I did miss noticing the attire in the blind or coming out of the blind, thats my fault, so I would not send someone back from the line, its too hard on them and their dog. 

I dont recall any rules that require failing or giving the person a zero for wrong attire in any of the games, either. Its the same as not tucking your leash away. Sometimes junior handlers are not aware of expectations and so as a judge, I mention it to them and expect them not to do it twice.

I have sent the odd person back from the holding blind to get a cover up or different shirt a few times. As noted by others, the marshal would normally take care of this, but if not, just deal with it. Its not the end of the world.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

msdaisey said:


> CNBarnes said:
> 
> 
> > msdaisey said:
> ...



It's not fair (not legal) to use a .270 to hunt geese.

Ballistics matter regards,


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