# Disappointed in Purinia



## Lee Nelson (Jan 4, 2008)

I just got off the phone with Purinia to confirm they are buying ingredients from China. After what happened with the treats from there, I'm not feeding Chinese ingredients to my dogs. Been a loyal customer for years...truly disappointed.
.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

What products are receiving these China ingredients?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Lee, I agree 100% with you. I will not buy anything that is produced in China. (Except clothes, because the world is not ready for me to go naked). Their standards of quality are based purely on what will make the most $$$. The culture is so radically different than ours that a businessman is judged purely on his profit margin even if their products are killing people and animals be they consumers or workers. If more people would take a stand it might make a difference. Yes, it is damned hard to find what you need produced in countries with standards, but it is worth the effort. For safety, economic and political reasons. You should have seen what I went through at a store the other day to be sure the flea/tick product I was buying was not Chinese. Fortunately the store owner was just as determined as I was to find out the origin of the product! He also won a loyal customer.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Did you have to call to find out or was this info on the bag somewhere?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Nestle, Mars, Colgate and Delmonte all seem to import a lot of ingredients from China, even for their supposed 'premium' or 'natural' brands. 

The guy at the high end pet store up the street recently went through his entire inventory and dropped anything that had ingredients from China. He said it was quite a chore as folks are not so forthcoming.

I am not big on country of origin, but do care about things the dogs and folks in the household eat.


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## wastinshells (Jun 23, 2014)

I've always been curious at the love for PPP here despite its poor ratings http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/

It only gets a 3 star, though its widely recommended here. Personally, since I can't find any of the 5 star foods, yet alone feel like spending $90 on a bag of food is wise spending, I'm going to go with the 4 star taste of the wild foods.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

wastinshells said:


> I've always been curious at the love for PPP here despite its poor ratings http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/
> 
> It only gets a 3 star, though its widely recommended here. Personally, since I can't find any of the 5 star foods, yet alone feel like spending $90 on a bag of food is wise spending, I'm going to go with the 4 star taste of the wild foods.


Taste of the Wild is manufactured by Diamond, which does not have the best reputation to say the least. DF Advisor is a good resource but not the end all and be all.

If you are having trouble finding a food that you like nearby, check out chewy.com They have most foods at good prices and free shipping. You can set up auto orders as well once you get the timing down for re-orders.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Yikes! $90 for a bag of food? You can find 5-star (premium quality) foods with free shipping on a few Internet pet food sites, like my favorite, Chewy.com. Oh, and foods that won't break your piggy bank...



wastinshells said:


> I've always been curious at the love for PPP here despite its poor ratings http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/
> 
> It only gets a 3 star, though its widely recommended here. Personally, since I can't find any of the 5 star foods, yet alone feel like spending $90 on a bag of food is wise spending, I'm going to go with the 4 star taste of the wild foods.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Lee Nelson said:


> I just got off the phone with Purinia to confirm they are buying ingredients from China. After what happened with the treats from there, I'm not feeding Chinese ingredients to my dogs. Been a loyal customer for years...truly disappointed.
> .


What are you switching to Lee?


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## wastinshells (Jun 23, 2014)

Thanks for the resource. I'll check it out.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

You will run in circles trying to find the "right" dog food At some point they all have issues!!! At some point the all change their formula!!!

I have yet to find one good .com site that offers a better deal on food than any other place And doesnt bet the prices on my local store


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

It is the one thing they are honest about.... telling you how most of the ingredients are processed at some point in China....

Fact..... just about anytime you see _*fish meal*_ listed on a Pet Food ingredient label it has been processed in China... Purina set up an operation in China many years ago... and if you ask me, anything from China in the way of food processing is suspect... and a major reason for the jump in Canine Cancers... 

All the people who run their dogs, hunt their dogs, and just love their dogs, should consider Victor or Dr. Tim's ... You are not going to lose performance, but may keep your best friend around longer... 

I just hunt my dog and because of allergies not all foods are working... Fromm just came out with a Lamb and Lentil and it's working thank God... nobody makes a better pet food then Fromm as far as ingredients go... but I don't know how that translates to you guys running field trials... Fromm also co -packs Red Paw... which is a performance food...

If you have an allergic dog.... look at the Fromm fact sheet it is actually a 32-20 food on a dry matter basis...

http://frommfamily.com/pdf/typical-analysis/four-star-dog-dry-lamb-lentil.pdf


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## Lee Nelson (Jan 4, 2008)

Jim, I'm looking at Dr Tim's and Caribou Creek...both musher foods...both US.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

.44 magnum said:


> It is the one thing they are honest about.... telling you how most of the ingredients are processed at some point in China....
> 
> Fact..... just about anytime you see _*fish meal*_ listed on a Pet Food ingredient label it has been processed in China... Purina set up an operation in China many years ago... and if you ask me, anything from China in the way of food processing is suspect... and a major reason for the jump in Canine Cancers...
> 
> ...


Thanks .44. We had good luck with Fromm's. We have a critter with allergies we are working out right now. I had a interesting conversation with the doggie dermatologist when, despite her recommendations, I refused to feed anything made by Nestle or Mars. We have hit the $100 per bag limit. I have found that you can get over that by buying smaller bags  It doesn't phase me that much. Years ago when I was lifting a bunch my buddies and I did the math and found that, leaving offal aside, quality protein cost about the same per pound regardless of its source--if it is out of line, there has to be a reason.

Personally, I think food allergies are a little overblown as a condition and what gives them problems is not so much protein x or carb y but various things both can be tainted by in the chain.

I am just hopeful we can find one food. If the ones at home could vote, one would pick Fromm's, one Dr. Tims and one Farmina.


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## Jeff Brezee (Nov 21, 2012)

I seem to have very good luck with Nutrisource. http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutrisource/ It is a family owned business based right here in Minnesota.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I have called Purina couple of times and they have told me there is nothing from China in PPP? I suspect much of our food (human and Dog food) has some Chineese products in it. Very disappointing to hear!! I will keep using the food The best we all can do is press them on the issue and hold them accountable!!


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## Lee Nelson (Jan 4, 2008)

Mary, I spoke to them this morning. It is also on their FB page.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Lee Nelson said:


> Jim, I'm looking at Dr Tim's and Caribou Creek...both musher foods...both US.


Keep me posted with what you come up with........Jim


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Putting anything from China in the bodies of your family or your pets/livestock should scare the daylights out of you. It is the wild west over there and they simply do not care. This is a country where they rolled over their own peacefully protesting students with tanks. They don't value the lives of their own citizens so it is insane to think they value ours or even more, those of our pets. There is no such thing as rejecting ANYTHING in manufacturing in China due to quality control...if they made it someone is going to receive it - guaranteed. I spent more years than I can remember in the import business. Malaysia (always Chinese factory owners and managers for some reason), Taiwan, Red China, so I know whereof I speak.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

So it is OK to use products from China to write and post complaints about products from China...

Got it. You have to love RTF!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

RF2 said:


> So it is OK to use products from China to write and post complaints about products from China...
> 
> Got it. You have to love RTF!


If I had to eat my MacBook, I wouldn't buy it either.

I try to buy the best quality and value products regardless of source country. Foodstuff from China don't make the list.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

RF2 said:


> So it is OK to use products from China to write and post complaints about products from China...
> 
> Got it. You have to love RTF!


When I start eating those products is where I'll draw the line.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Charles C. said:


> When I start eating those products is where I'll draw the line.


A little old but probably even more relevant today...

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/05/12/china-imports-grocery-store-cause-concern/


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

.44 magnum said:


> It is the one thing they are honest about.... telling you how most of the ingredients are processed at some point in China....
> 
> Fact..... just about anytime you see _*fish meal*_ listed on a Pet Food ingredient label it has been processed in China... Purina set up an operation in China many years ago... and if you ask me, anything from China in the way of food processing is suspect... and a major reason for the jump in Canine Cancers...
> 
> ...


Really nice to talk about Dr. Tim`s but you just can`t buy it anywhere. It also has to be convenient to get and some dog foods are not!!!IMO


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Really nice to talk about Dr. Tim`s but you just can`t buy it anywhere. It also has to be convenient to get and some dog foods are not!!!IMO


Yup! Gotta pick whats the best that you have to pick from I have 1 store in town to buy dog food from... I pick from what they have


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## MSDOGS1976 (Mar 7, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I have called Purina couple of times and they have told me there is nothing from China in PPP? I suspect much of our food (human and Dog food) has some Chineese products in it. Very disappointing to hear!! I will keep using the food The best we all can do is press them on the issue and hold them accountable!!


Yes. Many ingredients for our prescription drugs comes from China. Just curious, do people here do the same research for your own health as you do for your pets?


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## David Colwell (Oct 1, 2012)

I only offer this information as a data point in anyone's analysis of dog food. I spoke with a respresentative of a dog food company at the NARC last week and they indicated that based on their inquires approximately 86% of contestants in 2014 NARC feed their dogs PPP 30/20. And 18 of 20 finalist used PPP 30/20. 
This information is very consistent with what I learned at 2012 NRC. 

I hope this is helpful....
David


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## KPL (Oct 13, 2008)

Like others have mentioned, you can get dog food shipped to your door for free through chewy.com (and maybe other places). I now get Dr. Tim's delivered as I can't find it locally.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

rf2,
i played chinese checkers with a guy who was 98 at the old folks home the other day. i think he will be ok (actuarially speaking), but should i be worried?
jmc


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

Diamond natural is I believe a 4 star dog food - no corn, no soy, no wheat. Mernards and Fleetfarm carry it for about 27-30$ per 40lb bag I believe. Diamond has recalls mostly attributable to corn smutt - no corn - no corn smutt. They also have a all life stage dog food now with no grain at all and I think it is a 28lb bag or better for about 35-38$ a bag at Mernards. So far I have found these products to have the best ingredients for a fair price. If anyone out there has anything better for the same or less - would love to see what it is. I am always looking at labels and I am usually so intensely reading the labels I always get the, may I help you... I was really disappointed in Blue - it is not the dog food it used to be and should not command the price it does now. Did you know recalls are not mandatory for dog food? I am glad Diamonds is good enough to own up to it and do the recalls. Like I said - I look at labels on a regular bases. Tractor Supply has a dog food called 4-Health that is a tractor supply brand that the ingredients and price are not too bad.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Really nice to talk about Dr. Tim`s but you just can`t buy it anywhere. It also has to be convenient to get and some dog foods are not!!!IMO


I wonder if he ships by the pallet to Canada.. if he did it may be worth sharing a pallet with other dog owners... or maybe try to become a distributor... this food is taking the performance world over in terms of sled dog racing.....


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

I always fed proplan chicken and rice and it came in I believe 40lb bags for a reasonable price. Then they went with the Shredded blend and dropped the chicken and rice and made the bags smaller. The chredded blend had tiny moist pieces of kibble in it and any one can tell you wet ways more then dry so your are really getting even LESS and it appeared they changed the formula and it was not maintaining my dogs like I wanted. I had always been happy with pro-plan performance but to look at the ingredients you will find better for less but for some reason my dogs always did well on it. I do not plan on feeding my dogs anything that has ingredients that come from China if I know about it. Somebody on this thread said fish meal all comes from China. Have you looked at canned smoked oysters lately - if I recall they all come from China. The other thing the gripes me is why do they put soy in canned Tuna?? I am guessing as a filler and to cheep out and get the profit higher. I could not find any Tuna on the shelf that did not include soy. Ok, my gripe session is officially over.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Really nice to talk about Dr. Tim`s but you just can`t buy it anywhere. It also has to be convenient to get and some dog foods are not!!!IMO


before I found dr. Tim's I was looking for the acana performance food..... Couldn't find it in the states anywhere......


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

There was a comment made earlier about cancer being on the rise in our dogs because of food ingredients. I wonder how much of that is instead because of the fact that dogs are living MUCH longer than they used to? The average life expectancy of an average medium-sized dog has almost doubled over the past several decades. Similar to human life expectancies increasing. With age comes cancer, unfortunately. Cellular changes related to environmental factors, exposures, etc. are all associated with the development of neoplasms. However, isn't it the much better medicine/surgery and foods that are allowing our dogs to live longer in the first place? 



JusticeDog said:


> before I found dr. Tim's I was looking for the acana performance food..... Couldn't find it in the states anywhere......


One of my friends is a distributor...not exactly local for you though!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

.44 magnum said:


> I wonder if he ships by the pallet to Canada.. if he did it may be worth sharing a pallet with other dog owners... or maybe try to become a distributor... this food is taking the performance world over in terms of sled dog racing.....


Can't imagine the cost!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I sure Dr. Tim's is good but PPP as well, has taken many retrievers to the top in performance such as the National, The Grand in HRC and all the other venues dogs are in. 

I will remain with PPP . One look at my 12 yo tells the whole story. Bad choice some of you will say but... Although there are many comments about PPP even my vet compliments me on the health and weight of my dogs. 

I also suspect, dogs like humans are getting cancer at alarming rates for a variety of reasons and it is not just the food!. The best each of us can do is choose wisely, send out the message and encourage company's we support to eliminate chineese from their foods and clothing etc and try not to purchase from Chineese made. IMHO

To sum up, we all have differing opinions on dog foods as we have seen before on RTF!!IMO


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Can't imagine the cost!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I sure Dr. Tim's is good but PPP as well, has taken many retrievers to the top in performance such as the National, The Grand in HRC and all the other venues dogs are in.
> 
> I will remain with PPP . One look at my 12 yo tells the whole story. Bad choice some of you will say but... Although there are many comments about PPP even my vet compliments me on the health and weight of my dogs.
> 
> ...


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## Dave Mirek (Jan 23, 2007)

Can someone post the Facebook link that was mentioned where purina indicates these ingredients are in fact coming from China? They have a ton of FB pages and I haven't found it just yet.

Thanks,
Dave


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Just lost 2 Goldens in the last 2 years, one was just short of 17, the other just short of 14. Guess I shouldn't have fed them that crappy PPP, maybe they would have lived longer 



krakadawn said:


> Mary Lynn Metras said:
> 
> 
> > Can't imagine the cost!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I sure Dr. Tim's is good but PPP as well, has taken many retrievers to the top in performance such as the National, The Grand in HRC and all the other venues dogs are in.
> ...


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## MSDOGS1976 (Mar 7, 2009)

Sadie & Ruby said:


> Can someone post the Facebook link that was mentioned where purina indicates these ingredients are in fact coming from China? They have a ton of FB pages and I haven't found it just yet.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


https://www.facebook.com/purina?fref=ts

Its in the comment section on the right side of the page. Basically they said they use certain vitamins they can only get from China. Not all ingredients.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Can you tell us which ingredients specifically are from China? Is it the supplements/vitamins/additives, or the food products?




Lee Nelson said:


> I just got off the phone with Purinia to confirm they are buying ingredients from China. After what happened with the treats from there, I'm not feeding Chinese ingredients to my dogs. Been a loyal customer for years...truly disappointed.
> .


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Montview said:


> There was a comment made earlier about cancer being on the rise in our dogs because of food ingredients. I wonder how much of that is instead because of the fact that dogs are living MUCH longer than they used to? The average life expectancy of an average medium-sized dog has almost doubled over the past several decades.


While it certainly isn't a scientific sample, my personal experience has been the opposite. 12-15 year old dogs used not to be such a big deal. Now if they get beyond 10 without cancer, I am happy. My mother remarked that during her lifetime, horse life expectancy has almost doubled while dog has stayed the same or gone down.

I certainly wouldn't attribute it to food though. I think generally the food is better than what we fed 30 years ago, when Purina Dog Chow was the best you could find. Some folks think vaccines have something to do with it. Personally, I wonder about all the chemicals that everyone puts on their lawns nowadays. Typical suburban dog gets exposed to lots of stuff.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

David Colwell said:


> I only offer this information as a data point in anyone's analysis of dog food. I spoke with a respresentative of a dog food company at the NARC last week and they indicated that based on their inquires approximately 86% of contestants in 2014 NARC feed their dogs PPP 30/20. And 18 of 20 finalist used PPP 30/20.
> This information is very consistent with what I learned at 2012 NRC.
> 
> I hope this is helpful....
> David


Something like >90% of tour golfers play Titleist balls. The Pro V1 may be the best ball out there, that is only coincidental to the percentage.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MSDOGS1976 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/purina?fref=ts
> 
> Its in the comment section on the right side of the page. Basically they said they use certain vitamins they can only get from China. Not all ingredients.


I would suspect this *could *be the same for other dog food!Taurine I don't see listed in PPP but Bs are! Still I wish it was all American.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

krakadawn said:


> Mary Lynn Metras said:
> 
> 
> > Can't imagine the cost!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I sure Dr. Tim's is good but PPP as well, has taken many retrievers to the top in performance such as the National, The Grand in HRC and all the other venues dogs are in.
> ...


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

While Nestle is using some ingredients produced in China I would ask what their internal quality control measures are? A company the size and reputation of Nestle can afford to dump a container of product that does not meet their standards as where a smaller manufacturing company cannot absorb the loss and probably tries to use the questionable product anyway or doesnt even test said imported products. 

I believe part of the reason many dogs do so well on PPP is the consistency of the product again which comes for scale of economy of the company. They dont have to make the major changes to formula to keep profits on ever changing commodity prices.

With ALL that Purina has done for dog perfomance sports I am not willing to throw them under the bus. Many of our dog games would be struggling without the help of Purina. I for one will continue to support and use them as long as my dogs or others I know are performing well on PPP. Think about it folks. 

Pme thing is for sure there is no perfect dog food for all dogs, find one that works for your pups and use it.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mike, I don't think the sponsorship (advertising the product) of events is reason to justify the proliferation of Chinese goods invading our society. It is not that Purina is making bad product, or failing to do testing, though obviously recalls have happened due to the imported ingredients. The issue is that unless we as consumers put a foot down and refuse to buy, this outsourcing of ingredients, labor, time and materials will continue to be a huge drain on our health and economy. Unless you think it is okay to lower our standards of living to that of the Chinese, there is no reason in the world not to produce these goods here.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I would suspect this *could *be the same for other dog food!Taurine I don't see listed in PPP but Bs are! Still I wish it was all American.


Purina is certainly not the only one that sources ingredients from China, but there are choices. Off the top of my head, I know Fromm's, Farmina and Orijen source no ingredients from China. I am sure if you are concerned about a particular food it will say on their web site or they will answer you--particularly if they do not source from China.

Frankly, a food needs little or no supplementation of these particular ingredients (especially Taurine) if real meat is used as a primary ingredient.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

roseberry said:


> rf2,
> i played chinese checkers with a guy who was 98 at the old folks home the other day. i think he will be ok (actuarially speaking), but should i be worried?
> jmc


I think he should be worried...


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Carol,
I dont know the amount of product Purina procures from China. I dont think you throw the baby out with the bath water over chinese products when they are so prevelant. Do we (the pet community) need to pressure Purina to look for other reliable sources perhaps. I challenge to make it through today with using something made with products from China. Should the chinese have higher standards sure. Do we know if Purina rejects loads of product from China, I suspect they would and do. No manufacturer is perfect. I buy materials(concrete products) made her in the good ol USA and have had defective products delivered. Recalls yes but how many smaller companies have needed to do recalls and didn't. After all GM got away with it for a long time. 

As for me THank You Purina for all you do for our sport. Purina if you can find a safer more reliable, economical supplier then please stop purchasing from China.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

MikeBoley said:


> Carol,
> I dont know the amount of product Purina procures from China. I dont think you throw the baby out with the bath water over chinese products when they are so prevelant. Do we (the pet community) need to pressure Purina to look for other reliable sources perhaps.
> 
> Not only Purina, but challenge every company that continues this policy of accepting cheap over safe/reliable.
> ...


I too appreciate the "give backs" to their customers. I appreciate those from Euk as well. On that subject, Euk has been my dog food for many years. After reading this whole thread, I went back and looked into their practices. Well who would have guessed, just about the same! When specifically asked, they admit to buying supplements from China. If they are not interested in changing this, I will be looking into something else just like the others here. I do my very best to walk the walk when I state such strong opinions. Not easy, but if I don't who will? We can all help.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I just can't get all excited about taurine and vitamin B, in minute quantities, being sourced from China. Check your own supplements and pharmaceuticals. 
If they were sourcing chicken from China, that would be a different story.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Barb, it only takes "minute" amounts of poison to sicken or kill. Why even bother to use quality meats if you are only adding a tiny bit of polluted vitamins that are unnecessary to begin with??? Complacency is dangerous in so many ways!


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

I love the comments from people who have fed PPP for dogs who lived long lives and tell you it was because of Purina PPP. You never mention getting lucky with genetics. 

Those of us who have had dogs die of cancer know it is the crappy luck of gentics. If we feed a higher quality food, guess what our dogs live longer not shorter lives.. Good food helps those dogs with good genetics live longer lives... PPP is not Beneful. Purina has many brands... it is a wise choice to feed PP vs Beneful.

Also it is every right to be disappointed in a fine American company who goes cheap on ingredients by buying from China, then reaps more profit when it keeps raising prices for their brand. But that is the point... Purina is now part of Nestle, a giant Conglomerate based out of Switzerland ..

Dr. Tim's will tell you how much meat protein is in his food... will Purina? no. That is my big issue... I want to know how much meat is in a diet...

Victor Dog Food tells you... why will not Purina... You and I know the reason... there is not much meat protein and you are paying top price.


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> krakadawn said:
> 
> 
> > Good luck on getting that much across.
> ...


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## teacher504 (Nov 28, 2012)

I have Dr. Tim's delivered to my front door on a regular schedule for free...chewy.com


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Got a question for all the Pro Plan people... why does Dallas Seavey train his dogs using Dr. Tim's Dog food, and not a Purina product? I can tell you why not... Purina does not make a food equal to Dr. Tim's

http://drtims.com/dallas-seavey/


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Kind of interesting the passion on this thread. Also very interesting the cancer claims of many and yet no mention of the water quality issues in every state. Virtually every public water system is contaminated with pharmaceuticals. Think you are safe because you live in a rural area and use well water? Not so fast, ground water contamination from livestock being given antibiotics and hormones is also common. Give you dog (or you) a drink of water out of the tap and you are increasing your risk of cancer or other effect of the contamination. Someone direct me to some solid scientific information that PPP has ever caused one case of cancer. I am not saying it is the best food in the world, but to make claims that it is unhealthy or causes cancer is absurd without out data to back up such claims. Cancer is caused by so many sources it is nearly impossible to pinpoint a cause, much less blame it on trace ingredients in a food. 


http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/pharmawater_site/day1_01.html

http://toxics.usgs.gov/pubs/FS-027-02/

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11346.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/7-scary-facts-about-pharmaceutical-pollution-of-drinking-water/

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/publications/2011/pharmaceuticals_20110601.pdf

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pharmaceuticals-in-the-water/


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Magnum, no one is claiming causative effects from PPP, just commenting that if it were a bad food, dogs couldn't live a long time eating it. There's a huge difference. My dogs lived a long time ON pro plan, I didn't say it was BECAUSE of pro plan.
Carol, there is no taurine for pet foods made in the US. "....in all reality, the claim of “sourced in the USA” may become a thing of the past. As companies merge internationally and fewer factories around the world make certain things like vitamins and minerals, we are getting to a point where certain nutrients may only be made in other countries. For example, if a weight maintenance diet were to add carnitine, because this particular nutrient can only be sourced over-seas now, the food would by necessity not be all sourced in the US. 
As of today both vitamin C and taurine are not made in the United States by any suppliers for vitamin and mineral pre-mixes that are used for pet foods. More and more often we vets are hearing about shortages of certain vitamins for medical or feed purposes since there are only a handful of manufacturers in the world today..." (http://www.petcarerx.com/article/made-in-usa-vs-sourced-in-the-us-pet-foods/1161). If I made his own food myself, I'd still have to source the taurine from out of the country.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> Virtually every public water system is contaminated with pharmaceuticals.


In some areas where they track it, they know the drug of choice by the spikes in contents of wastewater after the weekends. Not to mention the birth control pills and we are all downstream of somebody's wwtp.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> If I made his own food myself, I'd still have to source the taurine from out of the country.


There is no need to source Taurine as an additive if the food contains sufficient real meat. If you made your dog's food yourself it would probably have said meat and your dog would get plenty of taurine. Purina and the folks that use this are putting back a synthetic because the ingredients of their food don't contain meat in the first place.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

DoubleHaul said:


> In some areas where they track it, they know the drug of choice by the spikes in contents of wastewater after the weekends. Not to mention the birth control pills and we are all downstream of somebody's wwtp.


The drugs of choice don't concern me as much as the hormones and others that have much longer half lives and break down products. 
Estrogen based steroids have been implicated in cancer. PPP has not


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> Magnum, no one is claiming causative effects from PPP, just commenting that if it were a bad food, dogs couldn't live a long time eating it. There's a huge difference. My dogs lived a long time ON pro plan, I didn't say it was BECAUSE of pro plan.
> Carol, there is no taurine for pet foods made in the US. "....in all reality, the claim of “sourced in the USA” may become a thing of the past. As companies merge internationally and fewer factories around the world make certain things like vitamins and minerals, we are getting to a point where certain nutrients may only be made in other countries. For example, if a weight maintenance diet were to add carnitine, because this particular nutrient can only be sourced over-seas now, the food would by necessity not be all sourced in the US.
> As of today both vitamin C and taurine are not made in the United States by any suppliers for vitamin and mineral pre-mixes that are used for pet foods. More and more often we vets are hearing about shortages of certain vitamins for medical or feed purposes since there are only a handful of manufacturers in the world today..." (http://www.petcarerx.com/article/made-in-usa-vs-sourced-in-the-us-pet-foods/1161). If I made his own food myself, I'd still have to source the taurine from out of the country.



This statement is illogical: "If it were a bad food, dogs couldn't live a long time eating it." Lots of people smoke cigarettes and live a very long time. Lots of people drink too much alcohol and live a long time. Then there's Keith Richards 

Mary Lynn: Orijen is made in Canada and is a fantastic food.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

.44 magnum said:


> Got a question for all the Pro Plan people... why does Dallas Seavey train his dogs using Dr. Tim's Dog food, and not a Purina product? I can tell you why not... Purina does not make a food equal to Dr. Tim's
> 
> http://drtims.com/dallas-seavey/


Personally I do not know who Dallas is. I am sure he chooses his dog food wisely. And I think for the type of racing he does Dallas has figure this food works well for his team of dogs. Nor am I saying Dr Tims or any other dog food is not good. You have to choose the food that your dogs react to best and you are happy with the results.

But for me and I know someone said genetics plays a part in my dogs life but it just so happens all those years PPP has been their diet. One is 8 months, one is 5yo and the 12 yo. I am happy the way my dogs perform and look on PPP. I am not about to switch from PPP nor get an importers licence but will pursue again with Pro Plan to try and get changes so there is no chineese in the food. It would be really great if each one of us did likewise with the companies we deal with and hopefully changes would come about. 

Just a comment to about ProPlan and other companies supporting our retriever events. That is not why I chose the food but do appreciate their continued support just as Eukanaba, Avery, Dogtra and Tritronics etc has been doing over the years. I did not go out and buy a Tritronics collar but bought Dogtra. I tried them out before I purchased and felt this was right for what I wanted. 

Am I happy about any chineese content in the food No and I am not happy about China products period in stores. I have tried to make a significant effort to buy if I can Made in America (Canada and US) only.

Yes and I know we in Canada can get Origen and Ancana but again they aren`t widely distributed. And again I like the way my dogs are doing on PPP.

All IMO


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

Didn't see anyone mention (maybe I just missed it) Blue Buffalo Wilderness (grain free)...it's expensive as hell, but after almost 10 years of having tried MANY different foods for my Sadie (she has pretty severe allergies) this is the first one that seems to work for her. She'll be 10 on the 21st of this month and is super healthy...her coat is rich and shiny...she has energy and stamina to spare, especially for her age...and the vet continues to be impressed with her overall improvement (skin, coat, weight control, performance, etc.) since I started her on Blue Wilderness about 6 or 8 months ago. Of course, we all know it's kinda like people: overall health depends on exercise, environment, attitude and genetics, among other things. Those here who have followed my Sadie since she was a pup know what a rough road it's been at times, and after all these years we've finally found a food that seems to really work year-round. BUT: if you have a weak constitution, don't look at the price vs. the bag weight...it'll make your knees weak! 

Just a quick p.s.: I realize that Blue has gotten a bad rap from a lot of people on RTF, so I want to clarify that this is purely personal experience I'm referring to, and I am not promoting one food over another. But with a dog that has had the difficulties my Sadie has, I thought it appropriate to share finding a food that actually appears to improve her allergy problems without sacrificing her performance in the field.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

You're right, a better statement would have been, "if it were a bad food, there wouldn't be SO MANY dogs living a long time eating it".
My bad.




Jennifer Henion said:


> This statement is illogical: "If it were a bad food, dogs couldn't live a long time eating it." Lots of people smoke cigarettes and live a very long time. Lots of people drink too much alcohol and live a long time. Then there's Keith Richards
> 
> Mary Lynn: Orijen is made in Canada and is a fantastic food.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

This statement came from Purina today to me


Thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company. We always welcome questions or comments from our consumers.

We would like to reassure you that Purina is extremely committed to food safety and quality control. Our products are formulated by professional pet nutritionists and veterinarians and are produced under strict quality standards. 

The Purina® Pro Plan® products referred to in your email are produced in Purina-owned facilities in Canada. The vast majority of our ingredients used in our products are sourced from Canada or the United States. However, as with other food companies, we do source a limited amount of ingredients from China. These ingredients, which are primarily essential nutrients such as taurine and B vitamins, are not commonly available in the US or other countries in the quantities needed.

To ensure the safety of all of our products, we have a meticulous quality assurance program for every incoming load of ingredients, and suppliers of the ingredients for our products must meet our stringent standards for ingredient specifications, product safety, sanitation and manufacturing practices. Additionally, we conduct physical inspections and analysis of finished products to ensure they meet our quality assurance specifications. We stand behind the high quality of our products, which consumers can feed to their pets with total confidence.

We thank you for giving us an opportunity to respond to your concerns. For more information on our company, our values, and our nutrition philosophy, we invite you to take a moment to visit our website, www.purina.ca. Should you have any other questions, please feel free to contact us again.

Again, thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

My answer to all of this.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> This statement came from Purina today to me
> 
> 
> Thank you for contacting Nestlé Purina PetCare Company. We always welcome questions or comments from our consumers.
> ...


Well, I would say this will probably end this thread. Thanks Mary Lynn! And as a side note, thank you to Purina for sponsoring our retriever games (no matter which form they come in). I know Eukanuba has recently decided to pull out of sponsoring any retriever game events and strictly doing conformation now, so thank you for continuing your sponsorship as these events would probably not be possible without you


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Jamee Strange said:


> Well, I would say this will probably end this thread. Thanks Mary Lynn! And as a side note, thank you to Purina for sponsoring our retriever games (no matter which form they come in). I know Eukanuba has recently decided to pull out of sponsoring any retriever game events and strictly doing conformation now, so thank you for continuing your sponsorship as these events would probably not be possible without you


Interesting. This is almost verbatim the same reply I got from Euk. Bottom line, there is absolutely no reason for them to put Chinese sourced products in the food. The supplements are not enough to be therapeutic, but certainly enough to poison a bag of otherwise good food. Folks, you have to take a stand somewhere. Are you saying a little poison is ok? What is your exact limit? How will you ever know? I am going to look very hard at those manufacturers that do not add anything they are not in a position to judge the quality of. Is it Tim's? I don't know yet, but for sure I am on a quest.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

The fact the Purina sponsors NAVHDA International and my dogs do very well on Purina Pro Plan Sport 30/20 is why I use it. 
You guys carry on.
Don


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## Steve Thornton (Oct 11, 2012)

.44 magnum said:


> I wonder if he ships by the pallet to Canada.. if he did it may be worth sharing a pallet with other dog owners... or maybe try to become a distributor... this food is taking the performance world over in terms of sled dog racing.....


I got an email from a pro just over the border from me that is now selling to others to make it more affordable for him and to support the brand. A Canadian distribution point might not be a bad idea.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

2tall said:


> Interesting. This is almost verbatim the same reply I got from Euk. Bottom line, there is absolutely no reason for them to put Chinese sourced products in the food. The supplements are not enough to be therapeutic, but certainly enough to poison a bag of otherwise good food. Folks, you have to take a stand somewhere. Are you saying a little poison is ok? What is your exact limit? How will you ever know? I am going to look very hard at those manufacturers that do not add anything they are not in a position to judge the quality of. Is it Tim's? I don't know yet, but for sure I am on a quest.


I hope before the expiration of your dog's life expectancies you will have solved the nutrition conundrum, I am content to continue feeding what seems to work for me and my dogs. I can only put my trust in the companies who have been providing quality nutrition for dogs the profit incentive notwithstanding.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Montview said:


> There was a comment made earlier about cancer being on the rise in our dogs because of food ingredients. I wonder how much of that is instead because of the fact that dogs are living MUCH longer than they used to? The average life expectancy of an average medium-sized dog has almost doubled over the past several decades. Similar to human life expectancies increasing. With age comes cancer, unfortunately. Cellular changes related to environmental factors, exposures, etc. are all associated with the development of neoplasms. However, isn't it the much better medicine/surgery and foods that are allowing our dogs to live longer in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> One of my friends is a distributor...not exactly local for you though!


I don't buy that even a little bit. Labs are NOT living twice as long as they used to. 

As far a foods and cancer I'm not so sure that the grains (RR corn) are not as much an issue. One of mine is in her last days due to cancer now, and I'm pretty sure I have bought my last bag of Purina product and will be feeding my young dog a grain free feed from now on.

Bert


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## MSDOGS1976 (Mar 7, 2009)

tzappia said:


> My answer to all of this.
> View attachment 19180


I'm sure your dogs appreciate that. I admit, I'm too lazy to go that route.


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## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

I personally avoid food from China as I don't trust their standards. My guy has been doing well on PPPP so far and will soon be 3. It is great that people have had dogs live long healthy lives while feeding it. 

My question is, when did they start using the products from over seas? If it is just in the last year, the possible effects of any potential contamination/poisons have just started. The only way to avoid this is to buy a food that doesn't have any suspect ingredients in it. 

I work for a high volume automotive parts manufacturing company. When I started they gave us examples of how 99% accurate is not enough. Think of a local hospital in a big city that delivers 1000 babies each year. If they are 99% accurate, then 990 of those babies will go home with the correct parents...10 will not. When dealing with such high volumes it is easy to make a mistake and send a suspect batch of the over seas product to the wrong place and end up having it being used and not rejected. 

I for one will be looking to change brands if any of the ingredients come from over seas.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Very good example Jim B! Dr. Ed, I have followed the same course of action for years, sticking with what has worked and kept my dogs fit and looking good. Now my concerns regarding Chinese imports is growing day by day as I learn more about their business practices and how many things may be contaminated. What used to work is no longer satisfactory. I don't know when these ingredients started showing up in Purina and Euk, and can't seem to get an answer. If it had always been there, I imagine they would be proud to tell me. It also really bothers me that we end up supporting practices that not only damage our health, but also economics and quality of life here. The ONLY reason a company outsources to China, is because its cheaper. They use slave labor, no health or safety rules and no responsibility. So you pay $1 less a bag at the Pet Smart? How many people here are without decent wages so that you can save that $? I know, this belongs on POTUS, but it is ostensibly a dog food thread. Thats where I will start!


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I wonder how in the world soo many of those Nat Am Finalists make it on PPP. I donno how last year's National Field Champion is still going. Yeah, PPP is soooo bad. You people should do your own research. If you think your dogs are better or does more than those dogs, then that shows more of your ignorance on the subject.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Carol does your same social consciousness apply to the clothes and shoes you wear? Do you avoid apparel made in Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Viet Nam et al? Do you apply the same scrutiny to the prepackaged foods you eat? I can only assume that the people at Purina, many who have been there for decades, understand the sources of the ingredients in their products. Everyone is free to make their own choices and I am confident that Purina is not poisoning my dogs with tainted ingredients from China.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

So based on what I've read here, any vitamin B product made for humans is outsourced from *somewhere,* since vitamin B apparently isn't manufactured in this country at all. Something to think about.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I wonder how in the world soo many of those Nat Am Finalists make it on PPP. I donno how last year's National Field Champion is still going. Yeah, PPP is soooo bad. You people should do your own research. If you think your dogs are better or does more than those dogs, then that shows more of your ignorance on the subject.


This hits the nail on the head: I have been having a mental argument with myself for the past year, between the argument that today's high-end (and very expensive) dog food claims to have such high standards and quality, yet the majority of our canine athletes apparently eat and outperform everybody else on the (dreadful) PPPP and Eukanuba PP. There's something fishy going on here, the logic just doesn't hold up.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I think in order to continue this discussion rationally someone should call each of the dog food manufacturers they have personally listed, grain free or otherwise, and find out where they get their taurine and B vitamins.


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## Nebraska Gundogs (Dec 21, 2008)

I know this might be a little off topic, but here is a dog food made in the US. That has great success since they have been making it.

http://www.wigginsriver.com/WigginsRiverPetFood.htm


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

After Nestle bought Purina pet products, my dogs' coats and body condition went downhill. I switched to PMI Exclusive which is Purina Mills. The story I heard was that the guys who orignally developed PP stayed with PMI and created the Exclusive brand. Dogs do great on it--good coats, good body condition, easy to maintain.

I just emailed them yesterday and here is what they said about their ingredients:

Meredith,

Thank you for contacting PMI Nutrition and for your interest in our Exclusive products. *All of our products are manufactured in the USA. *In addition, all of the proteins and grains are sourced from the USA. *Please let me know if I can ever be of further assistance.



Thank you,



Cassie Scott
PMI Nutrition
__________________________


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Pam Spears said:


> So based on what I've read here, any vitamin B product made for humans is outsourced from *somewhere,* since vitamin B apparently isn't manufactured in this country at all. Something to think about.


That is not true. These vitamins are manufactured in the US, although not that much any more. There are lots of B vitamins and lots of ways to get them and to manufacture the various compounds.

Chinese producers do have the largest market share in *most* common vitamin supplements, but it is a very fragmented market. Within China there are large producers that probably one could not distinguish from a pharma plant anywhere, but there are thousands of second and third tier producers that are closer to fly by night bucket shops, which can be scary. Other producers like Pfizer and Novartis manufacture all over the world.

At the end of the day, if you are looking into vitamin supplements, most of which are FDA regulated (although not as strongly as 'real' drugs), you are probably okay. Other items, especially energy drinks or supplements may be a hairier.

Still, you (and your dog) should not really have to supplement these things so much if the diet is sound.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I think in order to continue this discussion rationally someone should call each of the dog food manufacturers they have personally listed, grain free or otherwise, and find out where they get their taurine and B vitamins.


It is not that hard, if the manufacturer is willing to be open and honest (which is usually the case if they have nothing to hide).

In 2 seconds, here is some information from Orijen:


> We do not source ingredients from China. All of our minerals are produced and sourced in Canada. Our vitamins come primarily from North America, if they are not available here we have four other countries in Europe that we source from, Switzerland, Germany, France and the UK.
> 
> For more detailed information on the ingredients contained in our product lines, click on the Ingredients & Preservatives link.


And since you particularly seem to have a thing for taurine, here is what they have to say about that:


> This is because ORIJEN is rich in fresh meats in WholePrey ratios (in which Taurine is naturally present) and therefore no supplementation is required. Compare to conventional pet food ingredients which do not contain sufficient Taurine in natural form (from meat), and must be supplemented with synthetic Taurine ingredients.


Feed what you are comfortable with, of course, but i still contend that the question should be not so much the source of these added vitamins, minerals and amino acids, but why they need to be added in such great amounts inthe first place. The answer is that the ingredients these manufacturers use do not contain them.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I wonder how in the world soo many of those Nat Am Finalists make it on PPP. I donno how last year's National Field Champion is still going. Yeah, PPP is soooo bad. You people should do your own research. If you think your dogs are better or does more than those dogs, then that shows more of your ignorance on the subject.


PPP has nothing to do with winning anything. Those dogs/trainers would have won on any feed. I wonder what the % of FC AFC dogs' ultimate end is cancer related. I'm pretty sure it's very high.

Health issues aside the use of imported Chinese "food product" alone is enough for me to stop using Purina products.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Good riddance!!!!


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> Carol does your same social consciousness apply to the clothes and shoes you wear? Do you avoid apparel made in Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Viet Nam et al? Do you apply the same scrutiny to the prepackaged foods you eat? I can only assume that the people at Purina, many who have been there for decades, understand the sources of the ingredients in their products. Everyone is free to make their own choices and I am confident that Purina is not poisoning my dogs with tainted ingredients from China.


Obviously it's almost impossible to avoid Chinese products altogether, but food products are an easy choice, both human and pet.
I have sworn off all meat and fish products imported from 3rd world countries. I never order shrimp in a restaurant unless I know that it's either Gulf Coast or Atlantic wild caught product. Believe me over 90% of shrimp sold in your favorite joint is imported from Indonesia or Thailand and is raised in sewage.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

rbr said:


> PPP has nothing to do with winning anything. Those dogs/trainers would have won on any feed. I wonder what the % of FC AFC dogs' ultimate end is cancer related. I'm pretty sure it's very high.


I bet it is no different regardless of the food they are fed. Again, please post and scientific evidence that PPP has anything to do with cancer in dogs.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Not to just single out PPP, although their purchase of Chinese bi-product is reason enough. For decades agribusiness has used chemicals and now GMOs to maximize production. In the process they have developed grain products resistant to chemical application. Those chems are applied to the same fields year after year and have become a part of the food supply, not just petfood and live stock feed, but ours as well. Cancer rates have steadily increased across the board.

Do I have specific data re, PPP or any other grain added feed and cancer ? No. But I am very suspect of safety of the food supply in general.

Bert


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl4c17EjT9Q&list=TL83pBxsfwSB_jjuLAP1_cHAB4ZVFttoeW&index=1




Imagine if all companies had the advertising budget Purina has... what does not go into the food in quality ingredients gets used to make great ads...


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5IdmUP51M


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

.44 magnum said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl4c17EjT9Q&list=TL83pBxsfwSB_jjuLAP1_cHAB4ZVFttoeW&index=1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well there you go. How dare they advertise with that money. By god they should be a non profit


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

rbr said:


> Not to just single out PPP, although their purchase of Chinese bi-product is reason enough. For decades agribusiness has used chemicals and now GMOs to maximize production. In the process they have developed grain products resistant to chemical application. Those chems are applied to the same fields year after year and have become a part of the food supply, not just petfood and live stock feed, but ours as well. Cancer rates have steadily increased across the board.
> 
> Do I have specific data re, PPP or any other grain added feed and cancer ? No. But I am very suspect of safety of the food supply in general.
> 
> Bert



And goes into the water table. Far too many things that might cause cancer for me to get all upset about trace ingredients in food.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

badbullgator said:


> And goes into the water table. Far too many things that might cause cancer for me to get all upset about trace ingredients in food.


My daddy died of cancer last winter. As far as I know he never ate Purina Pro Plan. My thought is, if you live long enough you will get cancer. Best way to reduce your chances of cancer............ die young.
Don


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Don Lietzau said:


> My daddy died of cancer last winter. As far as I know he never ate Purina Pro Plan. My thought is, if you live long enough you will get cancer. Best way to reduce your chances of cancer............ die young.
> Don


Very sorry to hear that, I have lost several friends and family members to cancer. I have a friend who just had a kidney removed yesterday because of it.
You make my point, other than a few things (genetics,smoking, asbestos, and other known carcinogens) we have no idea what causes it. If you or your dog live long enough something will kill you. You can live in a bubble and spend your life trying to avoid all the things that will kill you or you can do what makes you feel the best and live life.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

How about all of these FC/AFC's and non titled dogs that eat Goose poop, dog poop, cow poop, horse poop, frogs, socks, drink ditch water lick pee, drink from stock ponds with an abundance of dilute urine not to mention all of the stuff they get into at home. The carcinogens they are exposed to on a daily basis are far more concerning to me than trace amounts of supplements.

Believing these companies are willfully putting animals at risk is crazy talk. But if it makes you feel better, choose something different and do not be surprise if the wonder ingredients found in your trendy food find the way on someone else's do not feed list because................................................

Keep on Euk-ing Regards


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Don Lietzau said:


> My daddy died of cancer last winter. As far as I know he never ate Purina Pro Plan. My thought is, if you live long enough you will get cancer. Best way to reduce your chances of cancer............ die young.
> Don


BTW- I have done fertility preservation for far too many very young folks to buy that dying young even helps.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Could be a sinister plot by those that are winning and attending National events. 
Stir the food plot and we'll eliminate some by getting them to buy those other foods 

Document it- write it down - we feed PPP only 2 of maybe 50 have passed with cancer and one those was 14. 
As i discussed this conundrum this morning with Pixie whom is 14.5 and she was doing her twice weekly mark and blind. She just rolled her eyes as she jumped in the truck - it was if she said "No not this again" 

My conclusion- when the other guys are standing in the winners circle; when the other guys are supporting our events; When the others guys are doing a high point banquet, when the other guys are writing a check to help support the Hall of Fame efforts well then I'll think about changing. Wait a moment - those things aren't going to happen - . I'm hallucinating again - it must be the heat
Dk


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## bfraze99 (Mar 24, 2011)

How many of you people have actually been to China? I have been there, drank there beer, ate there food and I am still here... I do not think that sourcing certain things from china is going to kill your dog. Because Taurine is in Red Bull, Monster, RockStar all from china are we going to have dead kids everywhere?? You think Purina is going to risk there name and being the largest dog food supplier in the world over a chemical? gezzz people.. I cant even believe I'm responding to this ridiculous thread...


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree, feed whatever you want. What I'm taking exception to here is singling out Purina for using vitamin additives from China. Also objecting to people implying that Purina is adding anything other than trace ingredients that were sourced in China. If you read thru this thread, it sounds like Purina is using chickens raised in China rather than just trace ingredients.
Sure, I know the Purina Pro Club is a marketing ploy. But they have donated over $165,000 to the Golden Retriever Club of America's health research foundation over the past 9 years. That means something to me. Haven't seen any of the other manufacturers, large or small, doing the same.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

.44 magnum said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl4c17EjT9Q&list=TL83pBxsfwSB_jjuLAP1_cHAB4ZVFttoeW&index=1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You must be a Dr. Tim's rep!!! You really dislike PPP?? Give it a rest!!! Just let us feed our dogs what we want. It won't satisfy you anyways; I can see that! IMO


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> You must be a Dr. Tim's rep!!! You really dislike PPP?? Give it a rest!!! Just let us feed our dogs what we want. It won't satisfy you anyways; I can see that! IMO


Just got no love lost for a company that has sold China Jerky treats that has killed so many dogs.. so much for quality control... and being China sourced. 

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.co...-train-and-canyon-creek-chicken-jerky-treats/

but as long as it was not your dog.. so what..


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## 2goldens (Jan 16, 2005)

I am always checking and looking for a good dog food, and now I am experiencing a new look for feeding a litter of pups. Most of us want the best for our pets. In reading this thread, I wasn’t aware of Taurine and started to check that out. Below is what I found. You will see if the amount of meat in the dog food was sufficient, it wouldn’t be necessary to add this supplement.

Taurine is essential for cardiovascular function, and development and function of skeletal muscle, the retina and the central nervous system.

Taurine occurs naturally in food, especially in seafood and meat. Taurine is now a requirement of the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) and any dry or wet food product labeled approved by the AAFCO should have a minimum of 0.1% taurine in dry food and 0.2% in wet food.[SUP][66]
[/SUP]
Synthetic taurine: In 1993, approximately 5,000–6,000 tons of taurine were produced for commercial purposes; 50% for pet food manufacture, 50% in pharmaceutical applications. As of 2010, China alone has more than 40 manufacturers of taurine. Most of these enterprises employ the ethanolamine method to produce a total annual production of about 3,000 tons.

In the end, I personally do not trust any food ingredient from China, whether for me or my pets. (By the way, 4Health, Salmon & Potato has no Taurine listed as ingredient.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

.44 magnum said:


> Just got no love lost for a company that has sold China Jerky treats that has killed so many dogs.. so much for quality control... and being China sourced.
> 
> http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.co...-train-and-canyon-creek-chicken-jerky-treats/
> 
> but as long as it was not your dog.. so what..


 I do feel bad for those dogs and their owners that have died! And not so what!!!! More than one company involved

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...ay-be-tied-chicken-jerky-illness-dogs-f420251


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## David Martin (Jun 26, 2014)

I just put down a 13yo female on June first due to cancer, the dog ate PPP her whole life. Will I feed my next puppy PPP? Absolutely, I in no way believe that this dog developed cancer due to eating PPP! Cancer happens, whether it be in people or dogs. We talk about a rise in canine cancer, but how many dogs or people for that matter have died of cancer years ago when medical technology was not what it is now, we have no way of knowing. Years and years ago I remember reading one of Wolter's books where he talked about one of his dogs developing cancer, it was Jet if I'm not mistaken. I highly doubt that in those days the food that he was feeding was loaded with Chinese taurine. I'll say it again, cancer happens no matter the food. I have seen so many foods come and go, I used to feed Euk, but I remember when Diamond was all the rage, the same for Nutro, Blackwoods, Black Gold and so on and so on. Dr Timms will be the same way. I can tell you that I have had nothing but good results with PPP, better than most other foods I've tried.


As for the corporate aspect, does Purina spend a lot of money in ad? Yes, of course! Do they give pros and breeders great incentives? Yes. Keep in mind though that some of the most reputable pros and breeders feed PPP, do you really think that some of the best in the FT business would feed their dogs crap just to save a few bucks?


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

PPP - 1) 16 /4 years 2) 14/4 years 3) 13/11 years 4) 11/4 years - NONE died of cancer!


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## Lee Nelson (Jan 4, 2008)

The Chinese taurine used by Purina is only added to their cat food according to the rep I spoke with.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Just an observation about the incidence of cancer (canine, human or otherwise.) The chances of cancer go up as you age. (Replicate a few key genes in key organ systems for 80 years or so... chances are really good that one of them will fold up wrong and become an oncogene... a cancer producing gene... that doesn't respond to nature's control systems.)

Anyhow, simple observation. People are living longer and there is way more cancer than their used to be. Dogs are living longer and they're coming down with cancer. Before you blame one ingredient from China... think about how the public gets its nickers in a knot with each study that wants to blame cancer on coffee, or bacon or hotdogs... next thing you know it's drinking water and greenhouse gasses. You just can't point to a trace element and say that's the cause. It's not intellectually sound to do so.

Now, emotionally... that's another thing. My 4 y.o. dog with AA points died from a bad batch of food. (Too much sodium.) He was the only dog in the kennel that didn't vomit it up. 

I feed PPP. It's a matter of who's quality control you trust.


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## dckdwg82 (Feb 5, 2014)

Victor dog food has taurine in it also.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Lee Nelson said:


> The Chinese taurine used by Purina is only added to their cat food according to the rep I spoke with.


It is not in PPP!


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## David Martin (Jun 26, 2014)

1tulip said:


> Just an observation about the incidence of cancer (canine, human or otherwise.) The chances of cancer go up as you age. (Replicate a few key genes in key organ systems for 80 years or so... chances are really good that one of them will fold up wrong and become an oncogene... a cancer producing gene... that doesn't respond to nature's control systems.)
> 
> Anyhow, simple observation. People are living longer and there is way more cancer than their used to be. Dogs are living longer and they're coming down with cancer. Before you blame one ingredient from China... think about how the public gets its nickers in a knot with each study that wants to blame cancer on coffee, or bacon or hotdogs... next thing you know it's drinking water and greenhouse gasses. You just can't point to a trace element and say that's the cause. It's not intellectually sound to do so.
> 
> ...


Coffee, bacon, hot dogs, power lines or cell phone usage. If we all listened to the news we'd all live in a bubble!
With that said, In no way did I mean to make light of your 4 yo, I know how bad that hurts, but I am curious about the high sodium?


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

Dave Kress said:


> Could be a sinister plot by those that are winning and attending National events.
> Stir the food plot and we'll eliminate some by getting them to buy those other foods
> 
> Document it- write it down - we feed PPP only 2 of maybe 50 have passed with cancer and one those was 14.
> ...


Chris, we really need a like button . Well said Dave! 

This thread is really getting more and more comical to me. At the end of the day it's like anything else in the human world; people are going to do what they want regardless of what anyone else says or suggests. Pick a food you are happy with, and that your dogs do well on/like and move on. On another note, I do sympathize with all on here and in general who have lost dogs including those that were food related causes. 

Happy 4th of July everyone! 
:BIG:


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

2goldens said:


> Taurine is essential for cardiovascular function, and development and function of skeletal muscle, the retina and the central nervous system.
> 
> Taurine occurs naturally in food, especially in seafood and meat. Taurine is now a requirement of the *Association of American Feed Control Officials* (AAFCO) and any dry or wet food product labeled approved by the AAFCO should have a minimum of 0.1% taurine in dry food and 0.2% in wet food.[SUP][66]
> [/SUP]


So it's NOT Purina's fault, it's the government!!! HA!! They are always the real problem :shock::roll::lol:


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jamee Strange said:


> Chris, we really need a like button . Well said Dave!
> 
> This thread is really getting more and more comical to me. At the end of the day it's like anything else in the human world; people are going to do what they want regardless of what anyone else says or suggests. Pick a food you are happy with, and that your dogs do well on/like and move on. On another note, I do sympathize with all on here and in general who have lost dogs including those that were food related causes.
> 
> ...


So true. Yes use the food that works best for you and your dog!


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## kelrobin (Aug 12, 2013)

wastinshells said:


> I've always been curious at the love for PPP here despite its poor ratings http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/
> 
> It only gets a 3 star.


That site is someone's OPINION and an opinion not based on much fact.


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## kelrobin (Aug 12, 2013)

mwk56 said:


> After Nestle bought Purina pet products, my dogs' coats and body condition went downhill. I switched to PMI Exclusive which is Purina Mills. The story I heard was that the guys who orignally developed PP stayed with PMI and created the Exclusive brand. Dogs do great on it--good coats, good body condition, easy to maintain.
> 
> I just emailed them yesterday and here is what they said about their ingredients:
> 
> ...


ahhh but if Purina is just using taurine and Vit. B from China, then they can claim the same thing. The food is being manufactured here and the protein is from here also. 

Oh and if this doesn't scare you, then nothing will.

http://www.wired.com/2013/09/china-chicken-usda/


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

When it comes to the Vitamin package used by Pet Food companies many have long standing relationships with vendors they use... that is not really a concern for most pets if they eat different production runs. Any added too much or too little won't then hurt your dog. Kibble because of the high cooking temp needs the Vitamins and activated minerals added for the long shelf life. 

Those who use Pro Plan are feeding a better then average dog food. No question ... in that regard. What I really don't like is not knowing the percentage of protein that comes from animal sources. It happens to be how I judge a Pet Food. You can guess, but I like to be sure. 

Many of the insiders like Dr. Tim have guesstimated on forums what ratio Pro Plan has... does it matter..yes or no... depends on who you believe... As long as all the essential amino acids are present the dog can synthesize others. More and more dogs are not able to make their own taurine so companies have started to add it... Yes China does hold a monopoly over some supplement ingredients, but that is because USA manufacturers took their companies to China for cheap labor. 

My dislike is not for Pro Plan, but the Purina brand. They sell many very poor quality pet foods that pet owners buy based on Fancy Ads seen on TV... food that will cause health issues because of high sugar levels.. 

Feed Pro Plan and be happy if it works... there are other performance foods that will also work and have yet to be bought by Corporations and are privately owned. I mention Dr. Tim often as an example because he keeps this forum going by advertising here... he's won over many new customers because his product works. 

Those interested in a food with no added ingredients from China is Nature's Logic... and the reason why nothing comes from China is because his Vitamin / mineral package is real food... no artificial Vitamins or minerals are added. It's made at the Victor Plant in Texas and co-packed by them. It is a step above the Victor products if you want "Natural" for your Pet.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

.44 Magnum has strong opinions on almost every thread


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

And they are opinions.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

EdA said:


> .44 Magnum has strong opinions on almost every thread


Does he Really!


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Food is not the only issue here. Longevity can also be determined by genetics and thru pedigree. From early on I only bought dogs who have performance and long term health pedigrees. There are lines which carry cancer and etc. Research before you buy and feed. By way of tidbit 200 years ago dogs keep by the wealthy were fed bread as their staple food not meat..too expensive.


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## kelrobin (Aug 12, 2013)

swliszka said:


> Longevity can also be determined by genetics and thru pedigree. From early on I only bought dogs who have performance and long term health pedigrees. There are lines which carry cancer and etc. Research before you buy and feed. By way of tidbit 200 years ago dogs keep by the wealthy were fed bread as their staple food not meat..too expensive.


And sometimes *stuff* just happens. I lost a 9½ year old in 2006 and then 9 days later I lost her 16½ year old mother.

This year I lost a 15 year old in March and 3 days ago I lost a seemingly healthy 10 year old. 

Sometimes no matter what you do, you are going to lose one too early. It doesn't matter what you feed, how you live, sometimes *stuff* just happens.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

I think we all need to be disappointed in the direction America's food production has headed. All because of Monsanto and making everything Roundup Ready... all for a higher crop yield and profit.. What we all don't know is how the long term effect of soils being treated with so many chemicals, and how they get into the water supplies nationwide. 

We all can be disappointed when family run operations get taken over by Corporations. This is not your fathers or grandfathers Purina. The only reason they are not selling the deadly jerky any longer is the State of New York found antibiotics in it.. 

Everyone at some point should view the movie..Food, INC. (Netflix stream... or You Tube..) We have been silent too long and need to put pressure on Congress to keep our food stuffs from being monopolized by Monsanto seed. 

<br>


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

.44 Magnum,

I caught the first part of this thread early on and page thirteen today. I won't comment about the dog food issue since I haven't read the entire thread. However, let me say this about your following statement:

_"We have been silent too long and need to put pressure on Congress to keep our food stuffs from being monopolized by Monsanto seed." 
_
When you rely upon our government to be responsible for the food you put into your own mouth you've given up the last bit of your personal freedoms. The solution isn't to cry to congress. Use the power of your dollars as a consumer. Buy your food from local producers who raise their products in a manner you approve of. No one is forcing you to eat the crap you detest. Grow a pair and take care of yourself instead of shaking your rake demanding the government does something which is your own responsibility.

Swack


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Well put...

but then why do we have a government? Regulations, if not for the greater good? Is it just to give corporations a free pass on how our food supply is raised ? The consumer is at a big disadvantage with Marketing... 

We have the Agencies... it is just all the appointees are former Monsanto employees.

Myself, I buy organic when possible, and GMO free for my dog when possible,,, but that does not always mean a diet will work.. having one Lab lost to Cancer at an early age makes one try to do anything that may keep the next healthy for as long as possible. I don't think it is one ingredient, one pesticide, but a totality of everything un-natutal we put into our dogs... even the Vaccinations that prevent disease can over load the immune system. 

So it is not just food, but it is the easiest way the typical dog owner can help.. The Dog Food companies will never change also if we do not expect more from them. Again that is where you decide to spend your dollars. That is your vote.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Swack said:


> .44 Magnum,
> 
> I caught the first part of this thread early on and page thirteen today. I won't comment about the dog food issue since I haven't read the entire thread. However, let me say this about your following statement:
> 
> ...



13 pages......go to your settings and change the number of post per page. This is only 4 pages, makes reading long threads much easier


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

badbullgator said:


> 13 pages......go to your settings and change the number of post per page. This is only 4 pages, makes reading long threads much easier


BBG,

Thanks for the advice! Now I can become comatose in only 3 or 4 pages instead of 13!

Swack


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

.44 magnum said:


> Well put...
> 
> but then *why do we have a government?* Regulations, if not for the greater good? Is it just to give corporations a free pass on how our food supply is raised ? The consumer is at a big disadvantage with Marketing...
> 
> ...


Why do we have government? This discussion will end up on Potus. When the lowly taxpayer can afford lobbies like some of the big companies have then we might be heard. And if you pay your elected rep some funds he might depending on the amount turn his head in your direction. Keep banging away folks. If you don't it might be worse.
.44 good post but not just Purina. It is many companies!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

EdA said:


> .44 Magnum has strong opinions on almost every thread


Not only does he act like an authority on most all subjects, but he refuses to give his name when asked.

I reccomend ignoring those type of anonymous "experts"


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