# O/U Shooters GDG



## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

What do you shoot? What do you like and dislike about it? 

Thinking about a 20 gauge for next year after shouldering a few of them. I think it would add to the upland hunting more than my semi auto. 

Thanks, and have a Merry Christmas!


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## Matt Gasaway (May 22, 2009)

I shoot an older Remington Peerless and love it...


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Citori's both 20 and 12's. No complaints.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

I have a Citori Sporting Clays Edition that see occasional pheasant use. My primary O/U is a Citori Lightning Feather 16 gauge with 28" barrels. I put Briley extended chokes on it (thanks Dad), and it just smokes anything in the uplands. Great handling weapon for grouse, and is an all day carry for pheasants. The 12 gauges are left for ducks and geese now.

Only drawback with any lightweight is recoil which is easily tamed with the proper recoil pad. I've never been a 20 gauge fan because the 16 does it all.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

used to shoot a Remington 3200 but have retired it since getting replacement parts is not cost effective any longer..still like shooting the Winchester 101 in both a 12 and a 20

the pros: nothing handles, points and shoots like a well fitted O/U, nothing is safer

the cons: nothing recoils as bad as an O/U with heavy waterfowl loads

I shoot skeet better with an O/U, but I hunt with an Remington 1100


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Beretta...

Hard to beat. If you're right handed you can get it with the stock cast for right handed at a reasonable cost. If you're left handed you have to go up a few steps to get it.

As for how they're made, they're elegant in their simplicity. They can get fancy and expensive but for cosmetic reasons only. As far as I know their most basic and most expensive versions function the same way. I think dollar for dollar they're the best especially in the lower end models.

Browning certainly has their followers too, Winchester just reintroduced the 101 but I don't think you can buy one with cast in the "cheap" models. Of course you can shoot just fine with a straight stock too.

Ruger makes the Red Label that is nice. They even made a stainless, synthetic stocked version but I don't think they still do.

All the companies have them but I don't think many actually make them. Rather they're made in Italy, Spain or Turkey and they put their names on them.

Most models start at around $1000-$1200 no matter who makes them. Lately there has been companies selling cheap versions for as little as $400. I'm sure there are those who like them but as with most things you get what you pay for.

Cabelas had a company Fausti make some guns for them and I bought one in 28 on sale reduced from $1200 to $800. Apparently there weren't too many rabbit hunters looking for an O/U.

Gander Mountain had some discontinued Winchesters on sale a couple years ago. Both stores have a lot of used guns too. Gives me something to look at in Cabelas in other states and of course the online gun auctions.

What do I like about them? Just about everything. There's no receiver so the weight is more evenly distributed between your hands, making it seem more lively. You lose the length of the receiver too. About 6 inches. Easy to carry for a long time. A friend and I went on a marathon grouse hunt one day, he considered leaving his 1100 in the woods instead of carrying it back to the truck. The O/U weighs about the same but doesn't seem to.

Two barrels, two chokes. It matters more if the other guy is carrying one, but they're easy to "make safe." You can tell from 100 yards if their action is open. I think the Field trial rules still suggest that the live guns use break open guns for safety.

The only case I've ever heard against O/U's is they're harder to load in a duck blind and that's probably true.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Citori!

A Club!!

I shoot it well though.

I would take a really close look at the Winchester that is Belgium made now. Beautiful gun.


Gooser


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I recently brought 3 other shooters to a preserve to give a golden it's first upland pheasant hunt. I didn't want to let any birds get away and I didn't know how the others would shoot. There were 3 o/u field guns, IC/M chokes (one Mossberg and two Brownings, I think). I brought my trap gun, Remington 3200 IM/F chokes. My strategy worked out quite well. I would shoot only on birds that were missed or were out of range for the other shooters. Birds did not get away. This is the first time I have used this strategy and it worked just as I had planned. Trap gun was a little heavy. I had been using a Fox Sterlingworth S/S, double triggers, IC/M before this.

Any O/U is light, safe, and quick.

I love the S/S. It's light, points easily, fits right. Dislikes---recoil can bruise your middle finger and the gun must be mounted differently because it is not stocked like a modern gun. BTW, I prefer the mount that I use on the Fox.

PS All 12 gauge guns.


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## J.Harris (Jan 26, 2011)

I shoot a Stoeger and am very happy with it. Have both 12 and 20 barrels for it. Have had no problems with it at all. Only thing I wish was different on it was it had ejecters. But, for $400 I have a O/U that I dont care if it gets scratched or dropped in the water. Dropped it in a slough one mourning and thought my hunt was over, but I ended up with a limit of greenheads instead, never missed a beat. IMO they are just as good as other O/U's that are on the market.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

:razz::razz:

I altered my Citori to extractors! (easy)

I hate havin to pick up hulls.
I am not co ordinated enough to catch in mid air!

Gooser


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Citori!
> 
> A Club!!
> 
> ...


Blasphemy I say! A Citori with the Prince of Wales grip and the slender forestock is music in my hands. Then again, it's all in the fit. 

I am going to have to give that Winchester a good looking over. God, I need a bigger gun safe.


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Brad B said:


> Citori's both 20 and 12's. No complaints.


I also shoot a 12 and a 20 Citori. Good dependable guns, and I shoot them well on some days.

Buck


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> :razz::razz:
> 
> I altered my Citori to extractors! (easy)
> 
> ...


I read you loud and clear. You mean you broke the ejectors.;-)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

*Reallllllllly easy,,,, reversable alteration.*




*Citori Process*
There are a few ways to change your Citori Ejectors to Extractors. The first is to disable or remove the Ejector Trip Rods. This requires removal of the stock and removing parts from the receiver. I don't recommend this unless you are familiar with the trigger group. The second is to remove the Ejector Sears. This can be done without removing the stock because the sears are in the fore stock. However, you have to drift out the sear pin. This pic is not very good, but it shows the sear pin clearly. If you're not an expert with a drift pin, you run a good chance of marking up your gun trying to get this pin out. The opposite side is not flat and would be more difficult to drift out from the inside.








It can be done, but it's not easy and would be just as difficult to re-install if you wanted to. 

You could just remove the Ejector Springs. That works, but then the shell is only lifted a tiny amount and is difficult to remove from the chamber, especially if you're wearing gloves.

Here's an example. The top barrel has no ejector spring and the bottom has the 1911 spring. See how the top is only lifted a small amount?









The easiest method is to replace the Ejector Spring. Fortunately for us the 1911 Firing Pin Return Spring is exactly the right size. I got two of them here:Brownells - 1911 Firing Pin Return Spring for about $10 including shipping.

Simply replace the stock Ejector Spring with the 1911 spring and it will lift the shell lightly enough to not eject it and still elevate it enough to easily lift out.

Here are two pics of both springs; installed and removed. Original on the left and the 1911 spring on the right:








As you can see the 1911 spring is longer but much less stout. You could cut a few coils off the 1911 spring, but you don't have to. To remove the stock spring just rotate the Ejector Hammer toward the spring. Hold on to the spring as it will come out with some force. If you just hold it between your finger and thumb, it won't hurt you and it won't go flying.

The beauty of this modification is that it is easily reversible. And, all this can be done at the range. The only tool you would need is a #2 Phillips to remove the Forearm Bracket from the Fore Stock. Remember that the stock spring is stout and while it can be put back in without any tools, it's not that easy and will require some force on your part. Still, if I can do it, you can too.

Note:
The older Citori guns have slotted screws in the forearm. They are soft screws and have a very narrow slot. You will need a special screwdriver or at least be able to grind a regular one down. I recommend this set if you're going to do regular work on older Citori guns:http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=223597



*Cynergy Process*
The process for the Cynergy is even easier. All you have to do is remove the fore stock, then drop out the Ejector Sears and voila the ejectors become extractors.

To do this just remove the fore stock, lift up on the end of the black lever indicated by the green circle, this releases the tension on the sear, then tip the stock toward the ground. The sear, I'm pointing to it with the pen, will drop off its pivot pin. 








Note the small dimple indicated by the red circle. This was on the inside of my gun. This is important because each sear is unique to either the left or right and you don't want to mix them up. Also, see the small Allan screw? Don't futz with it. That screw sets the sear point and you don't want to mess with it; SO DON'T!

Note about Sear Screw wrote:
Remember the part about not futzing with the small Allan screw on the sear? How could you forget, it's one sentence ago. 

Anyway, that screw serves two purposes; it sets the ejector timing and it helps retain the sear. Adjusting it will determine when the ejectors fire. Adjust it too far and the ejectors fire before the gun is fully open. This is bad. Adjust it too far the other way and they won't fire at all.

Back the screw out too far and you have another problem; the sear falls out too easily. It should have at least a little pressure on that black lever just under it. That helps to keep it in the fore arm. It would suck to have put your gun in its case at the range only to find the sear missing when you get home. That sear is not inexpensive and you have to order the screw separately. AND, just to put a fine point on it, that screw takes a .035mm Allen wrench. Dimes to dollars says you don't have one of those in your tool box and can't get one at the corner hardware store. 

So again, the best advice I can give about that screw is to leave it alone. But if you just have to adjust it, be very very careful.



The beauty of this modification is that it's easily reversible. In fact it's so easy, you could actually do it while on the 16yrd line of Trap and not miss your next shot. (but don't do that







)


Anyway, there it is. Now you know how easy it is to change your ejectors to extractors. We can argue the value of this some other time. I just wanted to put the knowledge I've found scattered around this site in one place. All of what I've posted here, except the pictures, was found on Shotgunworld. I wouldn't have been able to do it without the help of those who posted all this before me.

_________________
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Last edited by Rastoff on Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:14 am, edited 6 times in total. 



Read more: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=145108#ixzz1hTtwFQye


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

My apologies, Gooser. I am in a goofy mood today.

Thanks for the instructions, they are very nice.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

According to Browning,, the most common repair to Citoris is repair to ejectors.

I dont know why Citoris dont come from the Factory with the lighter springs in case you want extraactors!!

They can and do break because of the shock involved with the snap of them ejecting the cases.

With this alteration You make that Citori (cynergy) basically bullet proof.

You can easily reverse this alteration. It takes all of 5 minutes.

Gooser


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the new Winchester Elite 101 is made by FN (Fabrique Nationale of Belgium), my brother in Austin bought himself one for a recent birthday,its not quite a Browning Superposed and its not a Win-Olin Kodensha, but its a VERY good gun, machined very well, good wood, and points well when shouldered

I have owned a Beretta O/U but they never fit me well, I have owned a Kreighoff K-80 which I shot very well but sold when finances got tough, best target gun I ever shot


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

GDGNYC

I understand why you said that:razz:

Citori ejectors DO BREAK!!! 

Gooser


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> GDGNYC
> 
> I understand why you said that:razz:
> 
> ...


all ejectors break,my friend Todd Bender has a quirky ritual of closing the action of his K80 after ejecting the fired hulls, but he says the reason he does it is to prevent the ejectors from getting stuck and not closing properly and breaking which would be disaster in competition


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## Dale (Dec 21, 2003)

J.Harris said:


> I shoot a Stoeger and am very happy with it. Have both 12 and 20 barrels for it. Have had no problems with it at all. Only thing I wish was different on it was it had ejecters. But, for $400 I have a O/U that I dont care if it gets scratched or dropped in the water. Dropped it in a slough one mourning and thought my hunt was over, but I ended up with a limit of greenheads instead, never missed a beat. IMO they are just as good as other O/U's that are on the market.


Stoeger makes a sporting clays model with ejectors. 

I have a Stoeger in 12 and 2 Ruger Red Labels 12 and 28 guage. Killed a couple ducks with the 28 this year.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

I shoot a SKB o/u and love it!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I love the way my Ruger Red Labels shoot. Point , shoot, dead but both my 12 and my 28 have either ejector issues or issues in the reciever. The 20 and the 12 are both also heavy at 7 1/4lbs (I think)


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> the new Winchester Elite 101 is made by FN (Fabrique Nationale of Belgium), my brother in Austin bought himself one for a recent birthday,its not quite a Browning Superposed and its not a Win-Olin Kodensha, but its a VERY good gun, machined very well, good wood, and points well when shouldered


My favorite upland gun is a tie between my pristine 20 ga Winchester 101 Olin-Kodensha and my straight stocked 16 ga Winchester Model 12. Both are very light, easy to carry in the field, shoot right where I point and have a certain panache about them.

For waterfowl I use my Ruger Red Label 12 ga. Sporting Clays model. I consider it too heavy for trucking all day in the upland, but it swings smooth on ducks and geese. I hit great with the Citori but don't like the bulkyness of the Browning designed reciever.

John


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I have a pretty Rizzini 16 ga upland gun. Looks nice above the fireplace when I'm out hunting with my Franchi 48 AL or Benelli Ultralight. (I just shoot autos better.) I also have a SXS that I only use for targets.


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## H2O_Control_guy (Jul 14, 2009)

I shoot a well used field grade 101 with 27" barrels I bought new 25 years ago. Improved over a modified works well for me on pheasants. Only beef is that you need to be really diligent about cleaning it or you will shooting a single shot.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

I have a Ruger Red Label 12, 20, and 28. These guns fit me better than any other O/U I've tried. They are a quality gun with a good reputation, and they won't break the bank. The 28 is my favorite.


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## Richard McCullough (Sep 22, 2009)

I shoot Stoeger 20ga and love it. Just bought same model in 12ga


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

12 ga Browning White Lightning. Love it and am looking for a 20 for when I get old.

Put a Limbsaver on a couple years ago and it really tamed the kick from heavy loads.


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## rufsea (Jan 4, 2003)

RoosterBuster,
I think you would enjoy an O/U for upland. The O/U,
* can be opened and carried over your shoulder or the crook of your arm
* are usually more reliable then the semi - less moving parts to go wrong
* gives you the choice of two different chokes if your prefer
* you do not have to look around for spent hulls to pick up


I actually think semi's point very well, but only use mine for duck hunting. I shoot a 34" O/U 12 ga for competition but love the 28 ga. for upland hunting. You say you are thinking about a 20 ga. but I would recommend considering the 28 ga. also. Beretta, Ceasar Guerrini and Browning(as well as the more expensive manufacturers Krieghoff, Perazzi, etc.) all make nice two barrel sets 20/28ga. There are alot of used guns on the web in great shape to consider. 
Check out shotgunworld, claysports online and guns america as websites to get you started looking.
Hope you find one you like.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

RoosterBuster said:


> What do you shoot? What do you like and dislike about it?
> 
> Thinking about a 20 gauge for next year after shouldering a few of them. I think it would add to the upland hunting more than my semi auto.
> 
> Thanks, and have a Merry Christmas!


My upland bird gun is a SKB 505 20 ga, I own some brownings but the 505 fits me the best and it shows on the skeet range and in the field

Bottom line buy what fits you

Merry Christmas


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## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

Browning Citori XS Special and Beretta Silver Pigeon II. I really shoot the Browing better.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

rufsea said:


> RoosterBuster,
> I think you would enjoy an O/U for upland. The O/U,
> * can be opened and carried over your shoulder or the crook of your arm
> * are usually more reliable then the semi - less moving parts to go wrong
> ...


I've seen the two barrel sets and I don't understand why guys find them appealing. The 28 gauge in most cases is heavier than the 20 gauge and you can buy light load 20 gauge shells that are pretty comparable to the 28, so I'm interested to know what guys like about the set. The only reason I could see is to lighten the recoil a little bit, am I missing anything else?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

mngundog said:


> I've seen the two barrel sets and I don't understand why guys find them appealing. The 28 gauge in most cases is heavier than the 20 gauge and you can buy light load 20 gauge shells that are pretty comparable to the 28, so I'm interested to know what guys like about the set. The only reason I could see is to lighten the recoil a little bit, am I missing anything else?


the 28 gauge is almost the perfect shotgun shell, when I shot competitive skeet, I would usually practice with the 28 because it threw just enough shot to get the job done without the punishing recoil..as for bird hunting, the 28ga is perfect for doves/quail because its a clean kill without cutting the bird in half...and when it comes to dog training the 28ga is easy to handle while throwing a pigeon in one hand and then shooting that bird after..28 ga hulls have become like gold nuggets and are hard to come by


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Another vote for Ruger Red Label 20 ga, nice to carry and shoot but not great for a covey rise or where pheasants are plentiful when you might need a 3rd or 4th shot


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## rufsea (Jan 4, 2003)

The two barrel sets just give you a few more options and alittle flexibility. Granted, not much difference in performance between the two gauges, but with most people a ton of difference mentally. Once most people get comfortable shooting a 28 and see how well they can do, they love the gauge.
I had my wife starting with the 28 ga., if she continues and shoots more often she may want to shoot the 20, with alittle more lead in the pattern. If I had to pick one ga. it would be the 28, but if you can find a good deal and have two barrels for one gun, why not?


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## Jim Person (Jan 5, 2003)

I just picked up a Lanber sporting in 12 gauge. It fits real nice. From all the reviews I've seen it is supposed to be 95% of the performance of a Browning for about $700. Also bought the wife a Fausti Traditions in 20 gauge, again a nice gun and fits her well for about $400. I won't feel bad if eithe r gets a scratch or a ding for that kind of money.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Browning Citori 12 and 20 guage, Browning 300 win a-bolt, best customer service of any of them IMO,,,,,, and that is worth alot, 2 years after i had the a-bolt i hit a rock and cracked the stock, sent it back to Browning and they put a new stock and sent it back NO CHARGE,,,,,


Weatherby Athena III Great gun,,,,,,, customer service SUCKS!! never buy anything else that has that name,,,,


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

buy whatever fits, for me it's a browning. I prefer a beretta for fit and finish but if I don't shoot it well, being pretty is well... useless

good luck!


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## joel druley (Sep 6, 2010)

Two chokes--two shots- that you determine depending on the game or hunting situation.
Beretta 687 works well for me.


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## Jill Chalmers (Mar 9, 2008)

I bought a Remington Peerless a few months ago. I occasionally shoot clay targets and do some duck and upland hunting. The gun feels good and I can use it for everything. I'm very happy with it so far.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Noticed several mentioned the SKB 505. I bought one years ago to use pheasant hunting. Because of heavy cover, I didn't want to take my Winchester 101 & risk scratching it up too much. The more I have used the SKB, the more I like it. Very functional, reliable, well balanced and reasonably priced, esp in 1984.

Love my 101. Shoot a Beretta 682Gold E with Briley tubes for skeet, sporting & trap. That Beretta with 30" barrels is the finest shooting shotgun I've ever used.

Have to admit, I don't like getting pounded either, so I shoot a Beretta Xtrema for waterfowl - another nice shotgun.


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## Jim Butler (Mar 14, 2010)

I have a Citori Superlight "special steel" 12ga, 2 3/4" that I bought back in 1985. I also shoot a CZ Redhead in 20ga. Traded my Cynergy just did not like the recoil. For waterfowl I shoot a Beretta Extreme which I love.


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## BOB_HARWELL (Jun 7, 2008)

I have a Caesar Guerini Summit Sporting 20ga., 30" bls., that I shoot clay targets & doves with. I like every thing about it, no complaints. It weighs 7 1/4 lbs. but feels lighter & doesn't get heavy toward the end of a long afternoon of shooting.

BOB


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## EasyEd (Dec 20, 2011)

Hey All,

Merry Christmas!

This thread is very timely.

As I mentioned in talking about my two previous labs my shotgun (along with a Marlin 336ER in 356 Win and a bolt action 30-30) was stolen many years ago and I basically got out of shotgun hunting favoring deer, elk moose instead. That and I didn't know anybody else who did much bird hunting. The shotgun that was stolen wasn't anything real special - a Sile imported inexpensive (about $300 as I recall) Marrochi Arms (Italian) O/U in 12 gauge with 5 choke tubes - but it shot straight, had nice wood and a straight stock. It was heavy especially when I hunted my favorite - chukars but enjoyable for ducks. Only shotgun I have ever owned and in fact I've only ever shot one other shotgun - a 12 gauge pump something as part of a bear training course in Alberta.

Anyway with this new pup I am back in the shotgun market and I like O/Us. I can't justify thousands so I am in a quandry - inexpensive as in Mossberg silver reserve or IGA/Stoeger either one in a 12/20 gauge combo (double barrel set) or a single gauge higher quality double. Then which one and which gauge. Lets say your hunting is 60+% upland 40-% waterfowl. Does that justify a high quality 20 for both? (I am certainly drooling over Ceasar Guerini and while I could "charge it" I'd never get it by the "boss".)

I can get a gun from within Canada where I live (Vancouver Island) or the USA as I have all my family in the US (dual citizen). If you are wondering how - I can be "gifted" a gun that I get all the paperwork for through Miramichi (Canadians know what I am talking about) ahead of time and have the gun travel with visiting family and me to the border where I show the paperwork and then have a period of time to have the gun serial number verified by a verifier and it is registered (unless things have changed but this is how it was a few years ago). Hopefully Harper gets rid of the long gun registry to eliminate all this. I do of course have a PAL.

Good to read everyone's preferences! And am always interested in peoples opinions.

-Ed-


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

A friend has a Mossberg Silver 20 g O/U and it looks nice to me. He likes it.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

EasyEd said:


> Anyway with this new pup I am back in the shotgun market and I like O/Us. I can't justify thousands so I am in a quandry - inexpensive as in Mossberg silver reserve or IGA/Stoeger either one in a 12/20 gauge combo (double barrel set) or a single gauge higher quality double. Then which one and which gauge. Lets say your hunting is 60+% upland 40-% waterfowl. Does that justify a high quality 20 for both? (I am certainly drooling over Ceasar Guerini and while I could "charge it" I'd never get it by the "boss".)


If you are going to use it as a combo shotgun for both upland and waterfowl, then get a 12 gauge with 3" chambers. Changeable chokes is a given so don't go for straight boring. My personal preference will always be a Browning, and there are a number to choose from out on the market. You can also hunt around the various gun shops and get a used one a good price. Be very careful though, as there are some real tire irons out there. 

I tend toward the middle price with OU's as I cannot justify spending more than $2,000 for a shotgun. Remember also, that if you are going to use the shotgun for waterfowl the chances are more than good that you are going to bung up the wood. A synthetic stock should be an option. 

Weight: Ruger will feel like you are carrying a truck axle by the end of the day, but they are rock solid. Browning and the spaghetti variants all have lighter versions of their OU lines such as the Lightning, and the Lightning Feather, but you will trade weight for some level of recoil which most good recoil pads will manage rather well. 

Barrel length: I prefer my barrels to be no less than 28" with a 30" barrel being the preferred length. They provide a more consistent swing for me. Anything shorter than 28" feels like I'm swinging an axe. 

Porting: you will enjoy the difference in recoil, but most of your hunting buddies won't appreciate the ear ringing effects in a duck blind. That choice is up to you though. 

Trigger, Single select or double: No brainer for me. I hate double triggers but there are those who love them because they feel that they can change barrels, and therefore, chokes quicker than with the single select variant. 

Extractor vs ejector: Been covered in another thread, but I'm an ejector fan. Learn to catch the shells as they eject from the chambers and you are in business. When out hunting, you just don't have time to play with extractors when the action gets fast and furious.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

A selector switch like what used to be available on some guns would be nice. Not having that it's easy enough to "select" extractors by opening the gun and holding your hand over the empties and let them just fall back into the gun.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

I shoot a Citori Satin Hunter 12ga with 28" barrels. The Citori handles 2 3/4", 3", 3 1/2". I love it for waterfowl, but it can get a little heavy trudging thru upland fields.

I did shoot an SKB 685 12ga, but sold it for 2 reasons. Too pretty. I constantly worried about scratching it up. It was also a little light for me with a too much punch. The Citori actually fits me a little better.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

There have been many brands and models mentioned but my favorite and most reliable for over 40 years has been my Charles Daly Superior Grade 30" F/IMod. As a trap gun I've put hundreds of thousands of rounds thru this gun with never a repair.
I have 7 other O/Us (Beretta, Browning, Remington) that I enjoy but when I want to shoot for score it is this gun.
When I need to walk and carry it all day it is a 20g 26" Beretta Silver Pigeon.

Tim


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Tim Carrion said:


> There have been many brands and models mentioned but my favorite and most reliable for over 40 years has been my *Charles Daly Superior Grade 30" F/IMod*. As a trap gun I've put hundreds of thousands of rounds thru this gun with never a repair.
> I have 7 other O/Us (Beretta, Browning, Remington) that I enjoy but when I want to shoot for score it is this gun.
> When I need to walk and carry it all day it is a 20g 26" Beretta Silver Pigeon.
> 
> Tim


No to be confused with recents guns carrying the Charles Daley label. Yours is a fine long gun!


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Tim Carrion said:


> There have been many brands and models mentioned but my favorite and most reliable for over 40 years has been my Charles Daly Superior Grade 30" F/IMod. As a trap gun I've put hundreds of thousands of rounds thru this gun with never a repair.
> I have 7 other O/Us (Beretta, Browning, Remington) that I enjoy but when I want to shoot for score it is this gun.
> When I need to walk and carry it all day it is a 20g 26" Beretta Silver Pigeon.
> 
> Tim


Charles Daly never made a gun in his life, they imported them

If you got a good one chances are it's make in the Miroku factory in Japan, the same factory that makes the Browning O/U

Daly also imported a lot of junk 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Daly_firearms


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The Daly Superior Trap is Basically a Citori.
Actually leans a BIT more toward the Browning super or superposed.
Prince of whales stock,, Long Tang,, but differes in that it doesnt have the "Pimp" finish on the stock, like the Browning.

Daly started the import of Miroku guns .... Browning took note of the quality,, as did the snoooooty British,,, and so was born the Citori. There was some overlap of Daly Mirokus and Brownings Mirokus but they were somewhat similar.

That Daly Superior Trap is a Beautiful gun!!!

Gooser

P.S/
Search Daly Linder!!!! Beautiful


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Ruger Red Label for me,quality gun, nice wood and still made in the USA. Someone mentioned there weight and it's almost the same weight as my 870 I carried as a kid, so after using a 7 1/2# gun for this 30+ years it just feels natural and the feather weight guns feel cheap, although they are not. I enjoy quality guns that are going to last several generations.


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

mngundog said:


> Ruger Red Label for me,quality gun, nice wood and still made in the USA. Someone mentioned there weight and it's almost the same weight as my 870 I carried as a kid, so after using a 7 1/2# gun for this 30+ years it just feels natural and the feather weight guns feel cheap, although they are not. I enjoy quality guns that are going to last several generations.


That's what I look for as well. Something that's going to be around for a long time!


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

If God wanted you to shoot an O/U he would have stacked your eyes. Shoot a side by side. 

I have a safe full of both, I like a Browning 425 30" for high volume South America shooting, Perazzi, Fabbri are my competition guns. A nice gun is Caesar Guirinni you can get a 20ga 28 combo. I have one of those for South America they handle nice, you get a lifetime warranty, that they stand behind. When I won the US Grand Prix 28ga event they we're all over me to shoot there guns. Nice bunch of guys but I am sewn to the Winchester model 21 or the Perazzi. 

I always have a warm spot for the Browning Superposed. As for Charles Daly look up what it known as a Linder Daly one of the true pieces of art work.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

43x said:


> Charles Daly never made a gun in his life, they imported them
> 
> If you got a good one chances are it's make in the Miroku factory in Japan, the same factory that makes the Browning O/U
> 
> ...


I had a beautiful 20 ga. Miroku O/U that was imported by Daly. I can't remember if it had Charles Daly written anywhere on the gun, I don't think it did, only Miroku, Made in Japan, but it was sold to me used as a Charles Daly. 

My wife has a nice 12 ga. Auto with Franchi engraved on the 28" barrel and Charles Daly stamped on the receiver, I was told the receiver was Baretta but there is no other identificaton other than the Daly stamp. It's a very nice gas operated auto that shoots well and hasn't had any jamming issues.

John


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

MarkyMark said:


> If God wanted you to shoot an O/U he would have stacked your eyes. Shoot a side by side.


Side by sides are when I'm in a "continental gentleman" mood. A Winchester 21 and my present to myself before I got married, a custom made Bernardelli Gamecock. The last indulgence of a single man.

Tim


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MarkyMark said:


> If God wanted you to shoot an O/U he would have stacked your eyes. Shoot a side by side.


God I wish that statement made sense. The next step in thes sequence should then be that if God wanted you to shoot a single barrel (name your weapon platform) He would only have given you one eye. LOL and tongue in cheek regards........


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## jluther (Jul 18, 2005)

John Robinson said:


> I had a beautiful 20 ga. Miroku O/U that was imported by Daly. I can't remember if it had Charles Daly written anywhere on the gun, I don't think it did, only Miroku, Made in Japan, but it was sold to me used as a Charles Daly.
> 
> John


I'm glad to hear folks speak well of these. I bought one a year ago, my first O/U. Somehow, showing up as a newbie to shoot 5-stand with my 40 year old Wingmaster made me stick out just a little. I was happy to find the Miroku Daly. Of course, now I forget to pump when I go to HRC tests. 

________________________________
Julie

Traveler - UH HR Gaylan's One With the Wind UD MH WCX OA NAJ VCX CCA (2011 MN Qualifier)
Piney - UH Truline Rio's Pine Creek SH WCX


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## Richard Davis (Feb 9, 2011)

I have owned Ruger Red Lables 12ga, 20ga & 28ga & shot clays, ducks, geese, pheasants, quail, doves over the years. They are very durable, & Ruger's service is second to none. I had ejector problems & when I sent it back to Ruger, It came back looking almost new. I cracked a forearm & I paid for new stock & they installed a new set of barrels at no charge on a 20 yr old gun! Made in USA and won't break the bank.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

Mike Boufford said:


> God I wish that statement made sense.


It really makes perfect sense, 90% of your misses are going to be horizontal. Of course Charlie Miller made that statement, yep a pigeon shooter. Of course it's easier to regulate side by side barrels than O/U. Pattern a O/U out at say 45 yards and the bottom barrel is lower point of impact. That is the hard part of setting up an O/U. 

Tim, I have a Bernardelli Hammer gun Total Modern with 30 barrels, Teague choked with a single trigger. What a fun gun to shoot. I don't think a 21 is a continental bespoke, they have the strongest action of all the side by side's and I would have to say that the 21 over the years has some of the bigger purses won. Many guys including myself shoot em. 

You guys want a nice Side by side Browning BSS what a tough built like a tank gun.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

MarkyMark said:


> You guys want a nice Side by side Browning BSS what a tough built like a tank gun.


I like my SxS Fox Sterlingworth with double triggers.


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## kremerd (May 23, 2007)

Real men shoot pumps, Remington 31's, Wingmaster 870's, Winchester model 12's all in 28 and 16 ga.


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

kremerd said:


> Real men shoot pumps, Remington 31's, Wingmaster 870's, Winchester model 12's all in 28 and 16 ga.


I have an 870 for deer, I want a nice gun for upland, the SX3 is good, but I like the idea of an O/U or SXS


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I wish I had this SXS:

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ugartecheauplandclassic.html

instead of the too heavy CZ Ringneck I bought.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

kremerd said:


> Real men shoot pumps, Remington 31's, Wingmaster 870's, Winchester model 12's all in 28 and 16 ga.



When was the last time you saw a pump in the winners circle. That's like saying I like a Parker quail gun with no safety for grouse and woodcock hunting. 

The BSS was made by Miruko also. Funny how all through Europe you can find Miruko all over the place in the US just about dead. 
http://bit.ly/vfothg


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MarkyMark said:


> It really makes perfect sense, 90% of your misses are going to be horizontal. Of course Charlie Miller made that statement, yep a pigeon shooter. Of course it's easier to regulate side by side barrels than O/U. Pattern a O/U out at say 45 yards and the bottom barrel is lower point of impact. That is the hard part of setting up an O/U.


Differences in regulation are miniscule between the two as both are regulated to a point in space which of course depends on the manufacturer and capability of regulation. Some will be better than others and few of us can afford Holland & Holland or Purdy (shot both of these) which are at the pinnacle of quality and guaranteed regulation with either SxS or OU configurations. 

I don't put a whole lot of creedance into a single pigeon shooter regardless of his stature - times change. Between the two, which is the preferred configuration for sporting clays, FITASC, etc...? OU of course. If the statement actually held any creedance at all, then the SxS would hold court and be the dominant configuration.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

Mike there is a difference when shooting for a belt buckle or a platter then going up for 100K. But in the end I have earned enough punches in FITASC, Trap, Skeet and Sporting Clays. So don't for a second think I base this on pigeons. Last time I looked most pigeon shooters are washed up on shooting boring clays targets. 

You want to talk about regulated barrels, then why do the top clay shooters send out there O/U barrels to Wilkensen, Allor to get them regulated via choke tubes. Must be something that makes Digweed, Cambell, Wendell, Carlisle send there guns out. 

Let's see how shooting event are decided,
Skeet trap 400 targets, 
sporting clays 100 
Fitasc 50
Boxbirds 25
colombarie 10 

Why does it take 25 targets to determine a winner, hard game and very few straights are ever shot.

Mike name the event have gun will travel, I happen to love Parcours de Chasse.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mike Boufford said:


> Differences in regulation are miniscule between the two as both are regulated to a point in space which of course depends on the manufacturer and capability of regulation. Some will be better than others and few of us can afford Holland & Holland or Purdy (shot both of these) which are at the pinnacle of quality and guaranteed regulation with either SxS or OU configurations.
> 
> I don't put a whole lot of creedance into a single pigeon shooter regardless of his stature - times change. Between the two, which is the preferred configuration for sporting clays, FITASC, etc...? OU of course. If the statement actually held any creedance at all, then the SxS would hold court and be the dominant configuration.


I would really like one(pigeon shooter) to come out on a duck hunt or pheasant hunt when the wind is a blowin 45 miles an hour ,, the temp is 5 degrees,, and Ya got every article a clothin on Ya own .... I wonder if they are thinking about how they had that barrel regulated,,, or that 1/8 inch a wood removed for that gun fit,, when they was just wearin a T-shirt and a pair shorts ,, when they had the gun fit!!!!!:razz:

I think MY 4 coats add 3 1/2 inches to my lenght a pull.. My Gloves are so big, I pull the trigger with my tounge,,
The snot thats usually frose to the end a my nose,, doesnt allow me to get my head down as I should!!! Somehow,, I still make a shot er 2! ANNNND ,,,,,,9 times outa 10,, my pants are unzipped!

I've only ever netted pigeons!!

Just Yankin Ya Marky,,, Ya stuck up Winnie 21 money bird shooter you!!

Gooser


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

RoosterBuster said:


> I have an 870 for deer, I want a nice gun for upland, the SX3 is good, but I like the idea of an O/U or SXS


If you're on, you're on and doesn't matter what you're shooting. Learned that watching a guy break 25/25 on a round of skeet with a single barrel .410. Oh and he also shot from the hip a couple of times and once with the gun litterally above his head.



MarkyMark said:


> When was the last time you saw a pump in the winners circle. That's like saying I like a Parker quail gun with no safety for grouse and woodcock hunting.
> http://bit.ly/vfothg


I think it depends on what you're doing. If you're killing I'll take the pump. If target shooting where finese really counts well I guess maybe I'll take the double barrell. There's a reason why most military shotguns are pumps. 

If I ever take up grouse hunting then and only then would I seriously consider a double barrel.

Although I do love a well machined gun and most doubles seemed to be.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MarkyMark said:


> Mike there is a difference when shooting for a belt buckle or a platter then going up for 100K. But in the end I have earned enough punches in FITASC, Trap, Skeet and Sporting Clays. So don't for a second think I base this on pigeons. Last time I looked most pigeon shooters are washed up on shooting boring clays targets.
> 
> You want to talk about regulated barrels, then why do the top clay shooters send out there O/U barrels to Wilkensen, Allor to get them regulated via choke tubes. Must be something that makes Digweed, Cambell, Wendell, Carlisle send there guns out.


Any type of money event is going to present its own set of pressures which the average athlete will never encounter. In either instance, it's not the weapon, it's the shooter.

If we are talking customization, I'll bet the boys receive their shotguns with uncut barrels and then have the chokes added to their specifications, not to correct regulation errors as they come from the manufacturer. Top pros in any sport all have their quirks when it comes to their equipment and have their stick of trade. For the average Joe, Mike or Mark, fit of the weapon to the shooter, and proper mount technique will determine how well the shooter hits. There is more that goes into consistenly hitting targets, living or otherwise, than choke tubes. 

Parcours de Chasse seems a lot like what us common folk call 5 stand which can be a lot of fun to shoot. Then again there is another form of Parcours de Chasse which I am not going to even attempt with a shotgun in my hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-B9QL75qlw


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> I would really like one(pigeon shooter) to come out on a duck hunt or pheasant hunt when the wind is a blowin 45 miles an hour ,, the temp is 5 degrees,, and Ya got every article a clothin on Ya own .... I wonder if they are thinking about how they had that barrel regulated,,, or that 1/8 inch a wood removed for that gun fit,, when they was just wearin a T-shirt and a pair shorts ,, when they had the gun fit!!!!!:razz:
> 
> I think MY 4 coats add 3 1/2 inches to my lenght a pull.. My Gloves are so big, I pull the trigger with my tounge,,
> The snot thats usually frose to the end a my nose,, doesnt allow me to get my head down as I should!!! Somehow,, I still make a shot er 2! ANNNND ,,,,,,9 times outa 10,, my pants are unzipped!


Gooser, you just described half of my hunts whether it's been waterfowl or upland.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

MarkyMark said:


> When was the last time you saw a pump in the winners circle. That's like saying I like a Parker quail gun with no safety for grouse and woodcock hunting.
> 
> If God wanted you to shoot an O/U he would have stacked your eyes. Shoot a side by side.
> 
> ...


I think you'll find a pump in the winners circle about twice as often as you'll see a SxS.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

Even Nash Buckingham shot a SxS come to think of it he was a Helluva a pigeon shooter. Pumps are just cheap guns, so the guys that own them make all the excuses why they don't own a fine semi. But deep down inside they want to own a high grade shotgun so they tell everyone there the greatest gun to own and they can out shoot everyone. 
Now before you guys get your panties in a twist I enjoy the craftsman ship of a fine model 12, oops almost forgot where did "Pigeon Grade" Come from? Yep from the minion pigeon shooters back in the day, but the glory days of pigeon shoots are all under ground now. 

www.traphof.org/Equipment-Artifacts/early-pigeon-rings.html


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

MarkyMark said:


> Even Nash Buckingham shot a SxS come to think of it he was a Helluva a pigeon shooter. Pumps are just cheap guns, so the guys that own them make all the excuses why they don't own a fine semi. But deep down inside they want to own a high grade shotgun so they tell everyone there the greatest gun to own and they can out shoot everyone.
> Now before you guys get your panties in a twist I enjoy the craftsman ship of a fine model 12, oops almost forgot where did "Pigeon Grade" Come from? Yep from the minion pigeon shooters back in the day, but the glory days of pigeon shoots are all under ground now.
> 
> www.traphof.org/Equipment-Artifacts/early-pigeon-rings.html


Ouch! My duck guns are pump guns. I shoot the salt marsh and get down and dirty. Little grit in the action or slide? Quickly open it up and blow it out or just pump harder. Shooting with my friend Matt Higdon: Oh, my Super Black Eagle never jams. I had the action tweaked, it's a great gun, etc. 

Ok. Sitting on the meadow in Great South Bay, a flock of geese comes over us offering us a pass shot, no sound from Matt's gun. I couldn't resist, I just had to say Matt, why didn't you shoot? He sheepishly replied---My gun jammed.

No respectable bayman shoots an autoloader.

The uplands is a different story. I would love to buy that 20 ga. SxS that is in Krieghoff's showroom. As soon as I save up the $32,000............


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

MarkyMark said:


> Even Nash Buckingham shot a SxS come to think of it he was a Helluva a pigeon shooter. Pumps are just cheap guns, so the guys that own them make all the excuses why they don't own a fine semi. But deep down inside they want to own a high grade shotgun so they tell everyone there the greatest gun to own and they can out shoot everyone.
> Now before you guys get your panties in a twist I enjoy the craftsman ship of a fine model 12, oops almost forgot where did "Pigeon Grade" Come from? Yep from the minion pigeon shooters back in the day, but the glory days of pigeon shoots are all under ground now.
> 
> www.traphof.org/Equipment-Artifacts/early-pigeon-rings.html


The some funny stuff, I'll show my kid it to show him there was a period in time when the SxS was relevant, all be it a hundred years ago. I own some nice shotguns, just never felt the need to handicap myself with a SxS. As far as high grade guns I have never felt the need nor do I think I ever will see the need to put $10,000 worth of engraving on a $2,000 gun.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Guys that have really nice SXS's have told me that my Model 21 would make a nice Jack handle for a bumper jack!

Them "Perdy" guys tend to be a bit snoooootyish!! They wear leggins too!
Just not Goosers style!! I'm more into Lougeraaay! (I dont knows how to spell "Undies")

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mike.....

The guy I occationally shoot skeet with,, "Practices" with a Extra Full choke in his 20 Guage!!

He is an Incredible shot!!

He said I could be better If I could somehow get my eyes to Uncross again!!

Gooser


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

*No respectable bayman shoots an autoloader.*

I think you need to get a copy of "the outlaw Gunner" Once the auto 5 came out the market hunters had extended mags made overnite. 


2k for a plane jane Perazzi, Krieghoff wouldn't even buy a set of barrels, plus I hate gold on my guns. At the end of the day there all just tubes.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

MarkyMark said:


> *No respectable bayman shoots an autoloader.*
> 
> I think you need to get a copy of "the outlaw Gunner" Once the auto 5 came out the market hunters had extended mags made overnite.
> 
> ...


I have a copy of it and I have seen a long gun in my friend's collection. I know that Walsh feels that the autoloader was the best tool for the outlaw gunner---autoloader with magazine extension. My baymen friends all shoot pumps---none of them outlaws.;-)


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wow this thread, even if its tounge in cheek, is turning into a Field trials are better than Hunt test - Labs are better than Golden's thread. I'm way more a hunter than a clays shooter, but I have read a lot of shooting history and know there were terrific competitive shooters of every ilk including pump gun champions. I remember watching a guy shoot skeet with an 20 ga. 870 who never missed.

I started off in high school with a pump gun that I shot well for the next twenty years, but always had a lust for Mr. Fink's Superposed Diana Grade 20 ga. which appeared to have been built by magical beings. In my late thirties I was finally able to afford a Citori and bought one. It was no "Diana Grade", but it was a nice gun and I shot it well, I didn't like the inertia hammer and general bulkiness, so traded it in for a Ruger Red Lable Sporting Clays. About that time I got Stephen Bodio's book "Good Guns Again" and started dreaming about a classic SxS English game gun or quality American SxS.

I tried a nice Spanish double then an early (1907) Lefever which is a really nice gun. My unemotional take on this debate is that most current competitive shooters shoot an over-under shotgun. There are some classic events where for nostalgic reasons folks dress up in knickers, cap and tie, and drape a classic Parker, LC smith or Lefever over their arm. These guys are very good shooters and do well, but I believe that for the most part, on any other weekend they shoot their O/U in competition. I know my score goes up significantly when I shoot my Red Label versus my Lefever, but that doesn't prevent me from carrying the Lefever in the field, or load it with Bismuth and take it into the duck blind. I still would love a nice, six pound 16 ga. English game gun to shoot upland with.

Here's my Lefever...









John


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

John Robinson

The 20 ga. I handled at Krieghoff was a beautiful gun, but I was not attracted to it for its beauty. It had a splinter foreend, I would guess 25 1/2 inch barrels, and cast off in the stock. I picked it up, mounted the gun, and guess what? PERFECT FIT. I was very surprised---I suffer from short arm syndrome. I need to have the stock shortened of every gun that I own. Short arms and stubby fingers. The gun felt so good that I started dreaming of grouse and woodcock right on the spot. No price tag on the gun, I asked the girl up front about it, she said wait a minute, I'll ask. She came back and she told me $32,000. End of my dream.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Guys that have really nice SXS's have told me that my Model 21 would make a nice Jack handle for a bumper jack!
> 
> Them "Perdy" guys tend to be a bit snoooootyish!! They wear leggins too!
> Just not Goosers style!! I'm more into Lougeraaay! (I dont knows how to spell "Undies")
> ...


True story: I take my son down to Jaquas in Ohio for his first 12 gauge shotgun. We walk through the bank vault door, turn right and I tell him to start looking. He walks quickly to the back of the store, reaches up and pulls down a nice little side by side Purdy off of the shelf. 20 gauge, Funeral grade and used. I looked at the price tag, put it back on the shelf and told Eric that I wouldn't pay that kind of money for my own weapon. The price tag on that used splinter of a shotgun was $18,000! Since that was the year that Beretta came out with the 391, I was able to get a nice deal on a 390 (not the WalMart version either) for about $500. 





MooseGooser said:


> Mike.....
> 
> The guy I occationally shoot skeet with,, "Practices" with a Extra Full choke in his 20 Guage!!
> 
> ...



Sometimes, people can do amazing things with their weapons, and sometimes the weapon just fits the person and they can't seemingly miss. Your friend is in the former category while I am in the latter. By no means do I ever call myself a great or even good shot; to my standards, it's mediocre. My Sweet 16 has a modified choke, and I'm still able to hit 75% with it on sporting clays. Now mind you, I have devoted all of my shooting time to centerfire putting little holes in paper at long distance and doing a lot of practice with the handguns so I was extremly happy with that kind of score. I've shot clays a grand total of twice this year. The 9000G just gathers dust right now unless I need a few hundred primer poppers.


And MarkyMark, thanks for the history lesson. So where are all of the top pigeon shoots happening nowadays outside of Pennsylvania that is?


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> I tried a nice Spanish double then an early (1907) Lefever which is a really nice gun. My unemotional take on this debate is that most current competitive shooters shoot an over-under shotgun. There are some classic events where for nostalgic reasons folks dress up in knickers, cap and tie, and drape a classic Parker, LC smith or Lefever over their arm. These guys are very good shooters and do well, but I believe that for the most part, on any other weekend they shoot their O/U in competition. I know my score goes up significantly when I shoot my Red Label versus my Lefever, but that doesn't prevent me from carrying the Lefever in the field, or load it with Bismuth and take it into the duck blind. I still would love a nice, six pound 16 ga. English game gun to shoot upland with.


Lefever made a great shotgun back in the day and you have a great looking shotgun.

The evolution of the double shotgun came about due to one specific reason; external hammers. Muzzleloading shotguns required external hammers as did the rifles and smoothbores of the time. It made it naturally easier to build a side by side shotgun due to the need to build sidelock actions. Bear in mind that the percussion lock was a direct descendant of the flintlock with many of the old flintlock actions being retrofitted to the new design. No need to change configurations after all as the only difference amounted to a change in ignition method. 

An OU configuration would have been more difficult to manufacture requiring the under barrel hammer to strike from under the weapon. This alone would have been difficult for the shooter to manage quickly, and could also have resulted in lost percussion caps. Note that very few understrike muzzleloading rifles and pistols were ever made, and the few double rifles built in OU configuration required the user to rotate the barrels once the top barrel was fired.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

There are flyer shoots all over the US including your back yard. I could shoot at one just about every weekend. I pretty much stick to the larger shoots mid west, west, south and of course south east area. Yep I shoot PA at the single ring shoots during the weekdays. 
Then I travel to Mexico, Spain or Portugal for the world shoots. I'll mix in a ZZ aka Helice shoot down south america then do a dove and duck shoot. In the summer I'll switch to wildcat varmint rigs. Single life sure has helped over the years, and I built a business that could afford me to shoot and hunt when I want. I am sure when I look back it was one helluva ride with a scattergun. 

OMG is that an 8ga Parker with hammers???


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MarkyMark said:


> There are flyer shoots all over the US including your back yard. I could shoot at one just about every weekend. I pretty much stick to the larger shoots mid west, west, south and of course south east area. Yep I shoot PA at the single ring shoots during the weekdays.
> 
> OMG is that an 8ga Parker with hammers???


Nice shotgun. 

Now if pigeon shoots are in my backyard then where are they held? I would like to attend one but they are never seemingly publicized even at the local private club.

Not trying to be a smart ass here, but with all of that shooting you do, who is your dog pro of choice?


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

Right now I do not have a retriever? Lost 2 retrievers, 1 patterdale and my lurcher in 13 months. I have 2 coonhounds and 1 patterdale as of right now. I am starting to look for a dog now that is either finished or 75% started. Once I have one underway then I'll get another Lab. It's been a big change in my life since I have always had a retriever, so been doing the college student duck hunts and more field shooting this fall. Also been borrowing my friends Duck Hill Retreiver, small little meat dog. I am just a lowly meat hunter that loves a nice handling dog, a Hobo Duck Calls and a Model 12 Magnum Duck. 

Flyer shoots you gotta get in with the deep rooted trap shooters, there south of you.


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## Steven V Zugg (Jul 12, 2006)

Upland -- I shot a Merkel 20 guage side x side
I also shoot a Cesar Guerini 28 guage (30 inch barrels) Summit Sporting
Love them both


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Although I’ve spent a good deal of time & effort becoming a better wingshooter, I was still a mediocre shot (at best) on waterfowl until I traded my Dad for his old Model 12. I hadn’t shot it since I was a kid & failed to realize until the deal was done that the stock had been shortened quite a bit. Still the gun had sentimental value so I took it hunting & was thrilled to realize that it was just the thing for the type of setups I usually hunt from (layout w/bulky coat.) 

I probably couldn’t break many clays w/ it but for shooting from a seated position, it definitely improved my average.

For gunning over Springer Spaniels, I shoot a Browning 625 w/ 32" barrels. For hunting, a Beretta w/ 28".


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

So looking at the Red Labels, is a "Sporting Clay Model" just a 30" Barrel?

I will primarily using this for a pheasant gun, with the occasional trap shoot thrown into the mix, but overall I am into this gun for some meat 

How are the Rugers for carrying all day?


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

RoosterBuster said:


> So looking at the Red Labels, is a "Sporting Clay Model" just a 30" Barrel?
> 
> I will primarily using this for a pheasant gun, with the occasional trap shoot thrown into the mix, but overall I am into this gun for some meat
> 
> How are the Rugers for carrying all day?


Depends on what you are use to, I carried an 870 for 15 years and then between a Red Label and a Browning Gold for 15.. To me all are pretty comparable in weight and are fine for hunting all day, I know that guys with feather weight guns talk about how every ounce makes a difference, for me its not the case. I believe they weigh in at around 7 1/2 pounds.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

love my Fausti- use it for everything with feathers. i have never owned a gun that truly fit me until i bought it.-Paul


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Yeah, the history of the pigeon shoots was interesting...

I never realized where the name "clay pigeon" came from even though I've heard it all my life.

MarkyMark, have you ever shot pigeons at Rolling Rock in Ligonier, Pa.?


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

mngundog said:


> Depends on what you are use to, I carried an 870 for 15 years and then between a Red Label and a Browning Gold for 15.. To me all are pretty comparable in weight and are fine for hunting all day, I know that guys with feather weight guns talk about how every ounce makes a difference, for me its not the case. I believe they weigh in at around 7 1/2 pounds.



Im not too worried about weight, its just some of the guns I picked up the other day felt like tanks. I hunt deer with an 870 loaded down with 3" sabots walking a good majority of the day, can't get too much heavier than that I guess.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RoosterBuster said:


> Im not too worried about weight, its just some of the guns I picked up the other day felt like tanks. I hunt deer with an 870 loaded down with 3" sabots walking a good majority of the day, can't get too much heavier than that I guess.


To me weight does matter, upland hunting in Montana entails much walking, and though it's not mountainous, there is a lot of up and down terrain. Most of my hunting buddies have switched over to 20 and 28 gauges due to their light weight. I carry one of three guns upland hunting, the 12 ga Lefever I pictured earlier in the thread ( 7 lbs even), my Dad's old 16 ga. Model 12, a really fine light gun with a lot of history behind it ("Hits like a 12, carries like a 20"), and a reasonably light 20 ga. Winchester 101. But that said, anything between six and seven pounds is comfortable to me.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned that really matters to me, is the shape of the reciever. This is an area where the Ruger really shines, it has a relatively narrow, roundish action that fits my palm like a glove. there are some guns that are too bulky for me (Browning actions) and some have a hard edge that cuts into my hand. Balance carrying in one hand is also important, that is an area where the double guns seem to be better than pumps or autos, though I have to say my light 16 ga Model 12 carries nice.

John


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

I mostly carry SKB 505 20ga in the field. However when you walk your azz off and get very little shooting I carry Franchi 48 Al 20ga english stock This gun weighs like 5.5lb


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> .... my Dad's old 16 ga. Model 12, a really fine light gun with a lot of history behind it ("Hits like a 12, carries like a 20")....
> John


 
John, What shells do you use with your 16ga model 12? I have my Dads too but I don't use it anymore because the longer plastic shells (2 3/4) get stuck when you pump the next shell in(the used one being ejected gets caught). I used to find shorter shells but gave up on looking a long time ago. I have several collectors boxes of old paper shells but I won't shoot those. I use the gun now just occasionally for special hunts but I don't like picking the shells out.

As far as O/Us, I have two Citoris. My old fixed barrel Citori is for rainy days and cruddy weather and my White Lightning is for hunting on the nice days. I hunted with the old one for over 30 years and love to hunt with it. I'm still getting used to the new one. I think I baby it too much because I don't want to scratch it. Citoris just feel right for me and I shoot my best with them.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Double guns not having a receiver makes them seem lighter. The weight is between your hands not out at the end of the barrel, makes them easier to carry.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

mngundog said:


> every ounce makes a difference, for me its not the case.


it will be someday, usually when you reach 60....

Beretta 391 20 ga is like carrying a toy gun and makes shouldering the weight much easier and faster


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

For you 16ga guys, www.rstshells.com they will load up what ever you are looking for. I shoot there ammo in my pigeon guns, there pigeon loads are hot for pheasants also. 


Been all through PA shooting Flyers that is where I cut my teeth on them. Problem is PA could never get a big shoot organized like some of the Southern States and West. It has to be the fastest shooting game going. All things aside I have seen many great clay shooters just get in a hissy fit and score very poorly. You need to have your gun shoot where your looking, choked very tight with even patterns, let your sub conscious take over and push the envelope. That is where your gun needs to be regulated, fitted and be able to shoot every shot known to man because your going to face them with no time to think just react. But that my friends is one lonely pigeon shooter's take. 

Here's a nice read that might give you a different angle of what I post about. 
http://bit.ly/uCtiwY


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

EdA said:


> it will be someday, usually when you reach 60....
> 
> Beretta 391 20 ga is like carrying a toy gun and makes shouldering the weight much easier and faster



There a dream to shoot, even with those Federal Prairie Storm ammo.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MarkyMark said:


> For you 16ga guys, www.rstshells.com they will load up what ever you are looking for. I shoot there ammo in my pigeon guns, there pigeon loads are hot for pheasants also.
> 
> 
> Been all through PA shooting Flyers that is where I cut my teeth on them. Problem is PA could never get a big shoot organized like some of the Southern States and West. It has to be the fastest shooting game going. All things aside I have seen many great clay shooters just get in a hissy fit and score very poorly. You need to have your gun shoot where your looking, choked very tight with even patterns, let your sub conscious take over and push the envelope. That is where your gun needs to be regulated, fitted and be able to shoot every shot known to man because your going to face them with no time to think just react. But that my friends is one lonely pigeon shooter's take.
> ...



RST prices are really inexpensive for what you are buying. I'll have to order up some 16 gauge flats for clays shooting.

I would definitely like to attend a live shoot one of these days. 

That is an extremely interesting article packed with a lot of great information. Thanks for posting this!!!!


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

EdA said:


> it will be someday, usually when you reach 60....
> 
> Beretta 391 20 ga is like carrying a toy gun and makes shouldering the weight much easier and faster


When I'm 60 I plan on blocking, with the guns weight resting comfortably on the ground leaning against me until needed.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

mngundog said:


> When I'm 60 I plan on blocking, with the guns weight resting comfortably on the ground leaning against me until needed.


Be careful with that scenario; you might not make it to 61....


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Illinois Bob said:


> John, What shells do you use with your 16ga model 12? I have my Dads too but I don't use it anymore because the longer plastic shells (2 3/4) get stuck when you pump the next shell in(the used one being ejected gets caught). I used to find shorter shells but gave up on looking a long time ago. I have several collectors boxes of old paper shells but I won't shoot those. I use the gun now just occasionally for special hunts but I don't like picking the shells out.
> 
> As far as O/Us, I have two Citoris. My old fixed barrel Citori is for rainy days and cruddy weather and my White Lightning is for hunting on the nice days. I hunted with the old one for over 30 years and love to hunt with it. I'm still getting used to the new one. I think I baby it too much because I don't want to scratch it. Citoris just feel right for me and I shoot my best with them.


Bob, my gun is stamped 2 3/4" on the barrel. My Dad bought it the year I was born, 1949. I've seen older Model 12s stamped for 2 9/16", is your gun one of those?


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

Here's another read. From the lowly flyer shooter. http://amzn.to/vYZ4LK

Click on the book and you can read about half of it, in there will give you an idea of the mindset into shooting those little gray wing rats. 

If you guys want a book from the early days of flyer shooting PM me your email address and I have a copy in PDF format. Now I have to go draw my bath from an afternoon shooting sporting clays. 5 stand, and a few rounds of international trap. Yep all with a full choked 28ga.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MarkyMark said:


> Here's another read. From the lowly flyer shooter. http://amzn.to/vYZ4LK
> 
> Click on the book and you can read about half of it, in there will give you an idea of the mindset into shooting those little gray wing rats.
> 
> If you guys want a book from the early days of flyer shooting PM me your email address and I have a copy in PDF format. Now I have to go draw my bath from an afternoon shooting sporting clays. 5 stand, and a few rounds of international trap. Yep all with a full choked 28ga.


Well it's raining here which makes shooting a bit of a pain. Your last post had me calling my Dad about the RST site. I should have known that he would be familiar with this company. I also found that I can get RIO brand shells for half the price, but they are only so so in my book. I called RST but couldn't get through. I would definitely be interested in paying a premium for their shells if they are made in the USA. Do you know if indeed they are manufactured here? Being 2 1/2" shells, it would appear that they are European made. 

When the weather clears, I'm thinking that it will be time to get the shotgun out and do some clays shooting.


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> Bob, my gun is stamped 2 3/4" on the barrel. My Dad bought it the year I was born, 1949. I've seen older Model 12s stamped for 2 9/16", is your gun one of those?


Serial number shows it to be made in 1917. The 2 9/16 sound familiar as far as what I would look for. I might see if those 2 1/2 ones work from that shell maker MarkyMark posted.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Illinois Bob said:


> Serial number shows it to be made in 1917. The 2 9/16 sound familiar as far as what I would look for. I might see if those 2 1/2 ones work from that shell maker MarkyMark posted.


They will Bob. It may not be the chambering with the 2 3/4" as it is the shells. My Dad has to be really careful which 3" shells he puts through his Belgian A5 Magnum. The shells are actually hanging up on the receiver upon ejection and just fall back into the receiver. We measured various shells from different manufacturers and found nominal variations among them having solely to do with the overall open length of the shells. We've found that Hevi Shot works best for his receiver. It's also possible that your receiver ejection port may not have as much daylight as a newer shotgun could have. Don't have it relieved as you would a 1911. Just find the right shell to fit the shotgun.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

RST is rolled right in Friendsville PA, there the house brand at my club. So shipping is free for me. I shoot there paper pigeon loads. 

Call here for a price on RIO, www.cacassociatesinc.com I shoot the rio paper target loads also. Federal Paper target loads are the bomb. Of course my 1oz handload with a Downrange wad is a smoker with Clays powder.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

A 16 gauge model 12 manufactured before 1927 will have a 2 9/16 chamber.
The ejection port will be designed around that lenght also.

2 3/4 chamberings wer NOT offered until 1927. many of those early 2 3/4 guns were not marked as such untill well into the 1930's.

Many short chambered guns however have been altered to shoot 2 3/4 shells,

A good smith can tell if the chambers are longer,, and also if the ejection port has been modified.

2 1/2 lenght shells will work well,, but again,, another good reason to reload. 2 9/16 hulls are easily made from cut back 2 3/4.

Gooser


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Marky Mark Tell Morris (RST)Bridget from DeCoverly said hi and to come visit!!


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> A 16 gauge model 12 manufactured before 1927 will have a 2 9/16 chamber.
> The ejection port will be designed around that lenght also.
> 2 3/4 chamberings wer NOT offered until 1927. many of those early 2 3/4 guns were not marked as such untill well into the 1930's.
> Many short chambered guns however have been altered to shoot 2 3/4 shells,
> ...


I had to go back into the posts because I only saw the 1949 date. Thanks for catching that one. Now the question for me is whether a 2 3/4 shell would even chamber completely and easily in a 2 9/16 action. This could be a modified chamber without having the ejection port relieved. If this is the case, then having the ejection port opened would correct the situation if the smith knows what he is doing.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mike

The lenght (2 9/16 or 2 3/4 ) is taken with a FIRED (uncrimped) empty hull.

A 2 3/4 shell Loaded ready to fire, will chamber perfectly fine in that 2 9/16 chamber.

It depends on who you talk to. Some will tell you to shoot all the 2 3/4 shells Ya want. I dont live by that opinion.

The longer 2 3/4 FIRED hull will have part of the plastic down inside the forcing cones of the chamber,, that will cause a pressure spike.

So,,,, the correct fix if you will,, is to have the Chamber lengthened,, and the ejection port increased in length. Its a common alteration.

I find it MUCH more P.C. to leave the gun as is,, and either shoot shorter factory ammo (as discussed )from the Ammo manufactures above,, or Reload your own,, and shorten a 2 3/4 hull by apprx 1 /16 and adjust your crimp start station,, and your final crimp station to compensate.

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

A 2 3/4 loaded ready to fire round (crimped) will measure approx a little over 2 5/16

Fired (uncrimped) their measurements will vary from 2 11/16 to a tad over 2 3/4

So,, You see the problem with a 2 9/16 chamber having a hull in it that once it is fired (now 2 3/4 +),, part of the then UNCRIMPED hull is being wedged into the forcing cone of the barrel just in front of the chamber.

Pressure increase for sure!

Gooser


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

Will after reading a lot of this its making me wish I could pick up a gun and head to the trap range! 

Also made another mistake, went and shouldered a 20 gauge ruger, fit damn near perfect. Felt as good as when I picked up my SX3. But unlike the Winchester, I will look around more and make sure I really want the ruger before I open up the wallet. But I do love the feel of that O/U .

I also have to figure out something that my wife really wants so we can make a "compromise"


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

She should be able to shoot the Ruger , I am 5'6" and they fit me


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If Shes like My wife,, I think HE means Diamonds:razz:

Gooser


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

I've shot the 2 3/4 shells. You have to pick them out. It turns your pump into a single shot sometimes. I never thought about the pressures. I was told to not clear it out and leave it stock. I did have it cleaned up and re-blued once in my 20's even though I was advised to leave it alone. It's still a really nice gun.Who knows when that gun came into our family.We've been hunting a long time.That's my Grandpa on the left in this photo in 1919.I can't tell what gun he has there.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Mike
> 
> The lenght (2 9/16 or 2 3/4 ) is taken with a FIRED (uncrimped) empty hull.
> 
> ...


Well don't I feel stupid. I actually had to go down and measure a shell!

Either option is open to the owner since he has already had it refinished once.




RoosterBuster said:


> Will after reading a lot of this its making me wish I could pick up a gun and head to the trap range!
> 
> Also made another mistake, went and shouldered a 20 gauge ruger, fit damn near perfect. Felt as good as when I picked up my SX3. But unlike the Winchester, I will look around more and make sure I really want the ruger before I open up the wallet. But I do love the feel of that O/U .


That has never stopped me in the past, but definitely check out a few more shotguns and seriously look at other OU manufacturers. Browning and Beretta make some very nice shotguns.


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## kremerd (May 23, 2007)

MarkyMark, Just kidding, I have o/u's many side by sides, many pumps, even those auto's, but the pump is just plain fun to shoot. You have to admit, its fun to shoot trap, skeet or sporting with a low priced pump and beat your buddies shooting the expensive latest greatest new o/u or auto. Have never seen a o/u break 7 hand thrown clays but Herb Parsons could do it with a pump. 

"All dogs want to be Labs, all Labs want to be black"


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

Herb was one of the last real Winchester professional Tradesmen, of course Herb winning the duck calling championship in Stutgart Arkansas didnt hurt him either. Herb was also a pigeon shooter who took the Model 21 to new levels.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> If Shes like My wife,, I think HE means Diamonds:razz:
> 
> Gooser


WOW That is really sad, Did not even cross my mind

In my next life I am coming back as a kept woman with finger nails .........


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

Bridget Bodine said:


> WOW That is really sad, Did not even cross my mind
> 
> In my next life I am coming back as a kept woman with finger nails .........


My wife is far from being a kept woman  and to be honest its a chore to get her to buy stuff for herself....which makes it difficult to get nice stuff for myself


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Rooster I was not speaking about your wife who I am sure is wonderful. 

I was talking about my not so ultra feminine self thinking about guns and not diamonds my next life will be diamonds,,,


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Rooster I was not speaking about your wife who I am sure is wonderful.
> 
> I was talking about my not so ultra feminine self thinking about guns and not diamonds my next life will be diamonds,,,


Lol, got ya. It its good to know that a ruger would probably work for her if I do ever talk her into tagging along.


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## MarkyMark (Jun 5, 2010)

Not the best pictures mooser but sometimes you gotta test your ammo in the cold. 









Dam tight bore Superposed out patterned a Perazzi big bore today. That's a 35 yard full choke pattern.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm shooting a SKB 600 20ga O/U and absolutely love it. This is my upland and dove gun. It's light weight and very easy to carry all day. It has 28" barrels and is choked IC/Mod.


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