# Duck Dog Training With SMARTWORK - Video Series



## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Hey everybody!

I just got my Smartwork program in the mail and super excited to get started. I decided to create a video giving an intro overview of my pup, as well as a quick unboxing from gundogsupply. Wanted to turn this into a video series with weekly updates every Sunday with an overview of the training from the week prior. This series and channel is mainly to highlight my 20 week old Boykin Spaniel Banx and see what level I can get him to starting with absolutely 0 retriever training experience.
I have done countless hours of research on different programs and finally bit the bullet on the Smartwork program. I hope this can help others like myself that are doing research into their first dog programs as to if the Smartwork program is the right program for them.

Wish me luck, and I hope you enjoy!

-Jordan


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## fetchitupup (Jun 23, 2008)

Good luck on this adventure


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Good Morning Everybody,

Just posted up my first episode after the Intro to the series last weekend. Having lots of fun, and learning a ton! Just trying to keep Banx busy for the next 2 months as he transitions and starts getting a bit more mature and growing all his adult teeth. Then the real fun begins!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Dang! That is a lot of DVDs in that box Jordan. A great looking pup, you are going to have fun to have fun .
Tracker, it is not just how many bumpers you will need but how many of what color and how many of what size. And don't forget Birds, and boxes to carry your live Birds, and bags and satchels to carry your gear,
And tossers or Wingers to throw your birds and bumpers and remotes and chargers and healing sticks don't forget a really good first aid kit for man and Beast. Proper Footwear for the wet fields and mucky conditions and training grounds that have fields and wet areas and ponds retriever club membership so you have friends to throw birds for you and gosh you need some gasoline in the tank........
It's kinda a slippery slope😎


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Sorry no Tracker,
I use the Total Retriever Training materials from Mike Lardy and training alone Dennis Voight DVDs from the same source. 
But it is all similar as far as gear.
Start with a rope, a stick and a dog.
And poof! Purty soon your building a bird pen.


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## Vance_kaz (Nov 3, 2018)

The cheapest part is buying the pup 
I would buy a couple 2 inch white bumpers and some wings ,a healing stick, check cord and build yourself a place board 2 foot by 2 foot with carpet on top start there 
After awhile you can get into the launchers and holding blinds etc 
It gets expensive real quick
Im a lardy and voigt fan as well nothing against evan i think the smartworks are best for first time trainers


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Tracker, 
To be honest, I have not made it too far into the DVD’s. Only watched the Puppy Program and part of Obedience. I’ve done a bit of reading but not far enough to know what equipment to necessarily order yet. Since Banx only just hit 22 weeks old, I think I got at least another month before I get into some more stringent training with obedience. He still needs to lose quite a bit of puppy teeth and get more mature. I just know I have time before I absolutely need all this gear. Right now I have a check cord, 2 white bumpers, 1 black and white and 3 paint rollers which is plenty for me to get by right now. Going to get an ecollar fairly soon. Had a family emergency this weekend, so had to put my dvd watching on hold. 
Will update you as I find out!


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Dang! That is a lot of DVDs in that box Jordan. A great looking pup, you are going to have fun to have fun .
> Tracker, it is not just how many bumpers you will need but how many of what color and how many of what size. And don't forget Birds, and boxes to carry your live Birds, and bags and satchels to carry your gear,
> And tossers or Wingers to throw your birds and bumpers and remotes and chargers and healing sticks don't forget a really good first aid kit for man and Beast. Proper Footwear for the wet fields and mucky conditions and training grounds that have fields and wet areas and ponds retriever club membership so you have friends to throw birds for you and gosh you need some gasoline in the tank........
> It's kinda a slippery slope😎



Man Ken,
I’m already overwhelmed with 14 DVDs and a brick of a book in my hand! Then you had to go drop this bombshell on me. 😂 Glad I got time tho! Glad I got the program when he turned 20 weeks so I have time to get through the whole program and know what the next steps are at all times prior to formal training. Also, just did a first introduction to gun fire this morning which has been my biggest fear only because I grew up with dogs that were all afraid of thunder. Went as good as it could possibly go. Super excited for what’s in store!

-Jordan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

14! Holy Carp! Now Guys, do not get all flubbersnuffed if your pup does not progress in the exact time frame as all the videos. Every pup is different and everybody makes mistakes. EVERYONE!
It seems like a hundred years ago I received my 4 Lardy vhs tapes in the mail. I am able to remember what you are feeling. It is easy to get overwhelmed. Always remember to make it FUN!


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Hey everyone,

Made my 2nd Episode (3rd video ever) in this little training series! Please remember that I have never trained a dog before so this is all completely new to me! Doing as much research as possible, and studying Smartwork. Having tons of fun. For the next few weeks, going to just be passively training, then January 10th, at 26 weeks old, I plan to start hitting obedience hard! Super, super excited.

This week, I attempted short double marks and failed miserably. Stupidly learned that snow and white bumpers don't go together, and introduced Banx to gunfire! Man this little brown dog wants to go, go, go, and then go some more!

-Jordan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jordan, very nice video. I like that I can clearly see you and your dog are having fun. Maybe the dog a little bit more than you but that is to be expected. I like that you were using the word release. So many use give or drop and that can have issues with casual conversation I could tell stories but no need to Branch off at this point. I wouldn't worry so much about doubles at this time I would work on sit more while you're tossing the single retrieve doubles will come later. I very much like your ability to make a homemade check Court I have been a proponent of rope here on RTF for a couple decades. I do not know why you cut the ropes off your bumpers but that's a personal choice you made and who am I to judge. Keep having fun good job.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Your next purchases should be, in my opinion. A healing stick and some dark/drab canvas bumpers for winter snow work. You don't need orange right now and for most dogs they are completely invisible in the snow except for a few golden retrievers I have had contact with.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Your next purchases should be, in my opinion. A healing stick and some dark/drab canvas bumpers for winter snow work. You don't need orange right now and for most dogs they are completely invisible in the snow except for a few golden retrievers I have had contact with.


Thanks Ken! This is all great to know! I pulled the rope off the bumpers because Banx has been going right to the rope consistently instead of grabbing the bumpers by the body. Also good to know about double marks. I will focus on singles for now. Mr. Graham did a little double work to build pups memories when young, but I guess now that I look at it, these were also younger dogs than mine. Banx has a very good memory, specifically when I take sticks from him before coming inside. When we go back out hours later, he goes directly to where I threw the stick to play with it. I planned on ordering a healing stick here with an e-collar very shorty. And really appreciate the input about the dark bumpers. I wasn't sure what my best option would be for this winter snow. Yes, we are having tons of fun, and definitely him more than me at times. 

-Jordan


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

If you want to "fix" your white bumpers really fast so your pup can see them in snow, just use black electricians or duct tape. Wrap it around the bumper in the middle or at both ends and you have black and white bumpers.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

J. Marti said:


> If you want to "fix" your white bumpers really fast so your pup can see them in snow, just use black electricians or duct tape. Wrap it around the bumper in the middle or at both ends and you have black and white bumpers.


I was thinking about doing that, but decided against it ONLY because warmer weather was going to be melting the snow for the time being. I do have 1 black and white bumper also, just forgot it and I didn’t realize how bad the snow was going to make it. Very stupid of me, I know. Thanks for the input!


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

My lab pup wanted to do the same thing on doubles, go for the memory bird first, essentially make both marks memory. That resolved itself in time. So don't worry about it. Don't do many double yet, keep it to singles, fun, simple and get him to learn to use his eyes to mark. Using the nose comes naturally.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Keep in mind that learning is best done with a large dose of precise repetition. Many years ago, we had our son
begin taking piano lessons. The very first day, the instructor emphasized that precise practice was significantly
important. Her initial mindset was one that I never forgot. Basically, if you make a mistake, it takes ten times doing
that single skill correctly to get back to even. The primary issue with most new trainers is not knowing what a
mistake in progress looks like. Precise practice promotes better advancement.

Keep a journal. Forgetting what happened in the recent past is a relentless drag on the art of teaching.

That initial problem with throwing doubles is an example. What was done to "resolve" the issue? What could
have been done to make it a non-issue? Training is more effective when one teaches the lesser skills that 
are required to do the next, newest presentation.

The usual technique is to throw them at 180*° *which would minimize the influence of the 1st vs. the 2nd. Also, one
could throw the double very wide so that the "go" mark would be pushed by the heeling position while blocking
and distracting the pup away from the other toss. And if you are really into this being an issue have a fenceline
separating the two AOFs. 

On the other hand, maybe some simple pile work practice (in advance) would have enabled you to direct the focus 
of the pup to where it was supposed to go on the very first, wide presentation.

Answering the question "What does my pup need to know well before we do (skill wise) this next, new lesson?"
usually avoids issues.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

KwickLabs said:


> Keep in mind that learning is best done with a large dose of precise repetition. Many years ago, we had our son
> begin taking piano lessons. The very first day, the instructor emphasized that precise practice was significantly
> important. Her initial mindset was one that I never forgot. Basically, if you make a mistake, it takes ten times doing
> that single skill correctly to get back to even. The primary issue with most new trainers is not knowing what a
> ...


Wow, I appreciate all the insight Jim! I have so much work to do, and so much to learn. Appreciate all the input and constructive criticism I have been getting through the community! This is definitely a fun journey, and really excited for what's to come! 

Kind of planning to take it fairly easy for the next few weeks until I hit formal OB hard. 
Speaking of formal OB, what can be considered too much training during this period? Can a 6 month old pup handle 3 separate 5-10 minute heel/sit/here sessions per day? Morning, Lunch, Dinner times? I want to do at least a couple daily, morning and lunch, and would love for my wife to do the 3rd session at night so Banx gets handled by her as well.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Boykin Banx said:


> I want to do at least a couple daily, morning and lunch, and would love for my wife to do the 3rd session at night so Banx gets handled by her as well.


My wife helps with training. Her specialty is providing subtle, spontaneous distraction proofing situations.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> If you want to "fix" your white bumpers really fast so your pup can see them in snow, just use black electricians or duct tape. Wrap it around the bumper in the middle or at both ends and you have black and white bumpers.






Might have to try that. Dont have a dog right now that needs them but what ever happened to black bumpers??????? Cant find them anywhere.

Jordan I commend you on your dedication to your project and he looks like a very nice little pup. There are quite a few things I would do different but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I need to ask about doubles though. Even though he goes for the memory bumper first does he remember the other after he picks up the memory? In any case I would stop doing doubles. I will generally test a puppies aptitude for the concept and will occasionally throw doubles but not much until the dog is steady. I think most important is to let the dog tell you where he needs to go in training. Your communication with the dog is the most important part of training. Training books and videos dont tell you what to do if things dont go right. It is up to you to figure out how to make things work. You seem like a smart guy so learn the basic concepts for training from your book and videos then think for yourself on how to communicate and teach the dog those concepts.
Will be looking forward to your next video. Looks like fun, makes me want a new puppy


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Steve Shaver said:


> Might have to try that. Dont have a dog right now that needs them but what ever happened to black bumpers??????? Cant find them anywhere.
> 
> Jordan I commend you on your dedication to your project and he looks like a very nice little pup. There are quite a few things I would do different but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I need to ask about doubles though. Even though he goes for the memory bumper first does he remember the other after he picks up the memory? In any case I would stop doing doubles. I will generally test a puppies aptitude for the concept and will occasionally throw doubles but not much until the dog is steady. I think most important is to let the dog tell you where he needs to go in training. Your communication with the dog is the most important part of training. Training books and videos dont tell you what to do if things dont go right. It is up to you to figure out how to make things work. You seem like a smart guy so learn the basic concepts for training from your book and videos then think for yourself on how to communicate and teach the dog those concepts.
> Will be looking forward to your next video. Looks like fun, makes me want a new puppy


Steve, Definitely appreciate the input! I really have no clue what I am doing 😂 Just trying to take it day by day! In one of the early portions of the Smartwork Puppy Program, Mr. Graham shows a young pup doing short doubles to start working on his memory. I figured I would give it a try, not knowing what to expect. Definitely will be postponing any more of that! Excited to meet up with NateB here in the near future. I think watching someone in person working their dog will be a huge help and I will learn a ton. I have so many questions that I know videos just can't answer. 
I think right now I am just so anxious to get to training. I know I have a longggg way to go!


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Hey everyone! After all the help from my post last week, I decided to take it back to the basics and just run simple single marks for the week. Having tons of fun, but you can see that Banx still doesn't want to come back to me upon retrieves. Just trying to keep my consistency up from this point forward and make sure he is always on the check cord when using bumpers. Also talked a little bit about resource guarding that has been happing. 

Enjoy!

Jordan


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

Don't compare your progress with videos of dogs being trained by people that have trained many dogs. I think you said in another video that this is your first dog. You're doing great. A couple of suggestions. 

1) Bring a rolled up newspaper with you when you train. Every time you find yourself saying or thinking he's "hard-headed" or "stubborn," whack yourself upside your own head with the newspaper. There are undoubtedly stubborn and hard-headed dogs, but there are mostly dogs that don't know what you want from them. 

2) He IS coming back to you part way. It's the last 6 feet or so when he starts veering away. I would not reel him in like a fish on a line for those last six feet. I'd approach the issue with two tactics: make him come that last few feet and make the experience of returning to you a lot more rewarding. Take up the slack as he returns, like you're doing now, but, as he runs by, stop reeling and take a step backwards opposite the direction he's running. Say "no, come" calmly. Keep stepping backward if he doesn't come. Don't drag him and don't reel in the rope. Give little tugs or light jerks as you step back. When you drag, it sets up an opposition reflex. Little jerks are much more annoying. You have a big field there. Keep stepping backwards. (Be careful not to trip and fall on your rear.) Whenever he relents and starts moving towards you, smile and praise quietly. Stop praising the instant he turns away again, say "no, come", calmly. You have all day and a lot of field. No reeling. Eventually, he is going to get tired of those irritating tugs and come to you. Do not give up and reel him in, even if it takes 30 minutes the first time. Just take in slack, as needed Your criteria for him getting "close enough" should be black and white. I wouldn't stop the backing up and tugging until he actually touches you. HE has to touch YOU. On his own, without you pulling him into you. If he drops the bumper at any time in this process, ignore it. This is a recall lesson, not a hold lesson. The next part of the lesson is making the return a LOT more rewarding than you're making it now. When he does return and touch you, do not yank the bumper from him. You're young and probably still have good knees. Crouch down and PRAISE him WHILE HE IS HOLDING THE BUMPER (assuming he hasn't dropped it). If he has dropped it, praise him anyway. If he has the bumper, rub his sides and let him hold it for a while and tell him what a handsome dog he is with that bumper. When you feel like he's gotten the message that he is a GOOD DOG, do not yank the bumper away. Gently hold his collar and say give or release or whatever. If he doesn't release, you might lightly squeeze his lips, but hopefully he will give it up.

3) He's a puppy, but it's past time for him to stop jumping up and down before you throw the bumper. No need to be mean, no need to whack him with your rolled up newspaper. (That's for you when you blame him for not knowing what he hasn't been taught.) Just say "sit." And don't throw it until he is sitting. If he keeps doing his pogo stick routine, wait him out. At first, require only that he sit still for the count of 3. Start asking for more as he gets it through his little excited Boykin brain that No-Sit means No Bumper. 

4) I know you took the ropes off the bumpers to keep him from carrying the bumper back by the rope. Opinions differ on whether the rope carrying will lead to bad bird handling. I worried about it with my first dog, didn't with my second. Neither carried ducks by their necks. My second dog still carries bumpers by the ropes and one of his favorite games is twirling and tossing the bumper as he bounds around. I know that lots of people would be appalled at the sight. He never slings ducks around. The point is, you would be able to throw the bumper a lot further if it had a rope, but that's up to you. At some point, you'll need someone to throw it for you to build distance or you'll need a winger. 

Lastly: You are focusing a lot on your dog's flaws, and, of course, he's a puppy and he needs a lot of work, but maybe you aren't aware of how much you have to appreciate about your great little pupster, beside the fact that he's so adorable. His retrieving drive is fantastic. His energy is fantastic. His focus and memory, for such a young dog, are amazing. You were upset at his not doing doubles like you wanted him to. I was impressed at how he did not let himself get distracted from the first bumper and he didn't forget where it was. Of course, you'll need to train him to do doubles you way you want, but you will be grateful for that memory and focus later. 

Enjoy the journey!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Another great video Jordan. You are definitely in the running for the cutest pup on RTF at this time. Helpful rope tips for you. What you were doing in this most recent video is what many of us call fun bumpers or fun retrieves because you are not having your pup sit and then you are not releasing him on his name. This is hard to do when you are alone but it can be done because you have a rope. Notice how in some frames of your video the Rope goes from the collar of your pup to the ground and then up to your hands. With your pup sitting and the Rope going down to the ground step on it. This will hold the puppy place and keep him from bouncing up to your shirt pockets. Then with the pup secure you can toss the bumper Bend back down and hold your pup and then release him on his name. And when he is running out to the bumper the Rope does not need to pass through your hands at all that's just an excuse for rope burn as he gets bigger and stronger he can just drag the Rope. The only time you even need to pick it up is when he comes back or if he's not coming back. Then it's easy enough to just Scamper out a couple steps and again step on the Rope gain control and reeling back in. I could give paragraph and paragraph more but I don't need to overwhelm he's just a pup you're doing great . nice thumb.😎


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

PalouseDogs said:


> Don't compare your progress with videos of dogs being trained by people that have trained many dogs. I think you said in another video that this is your first dog. You're doing great. A couple of suggestions.
> 
> 1) Bring a rolled up newspaper with you when you train. Every time you find yourself saying or thinking he's "hard-headed" or "stubborn," whack yourself upside your own head with the newspaper. There are undoubtedly stubborn and hard-headed dogs, but there are mostly dogs that don't know what you want from them.
> 
> ...


Hey Kelly, I really appreciate the feedback and help! Definitely learning patience I never knew I had before, and getting better every day. Really big thank you for the recall help. I will start doing that immediately and show how its been going next Sunday! I have SO much to learn and appreciate all the help from this great community! 
You guys have helped me more than you will ever know!
-Jordan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Hi Jordan.
I'll start by saying you do a great job with you videos. Wish I could do as well. Now if your dog training was as good as your videos you would have it made. Just teasin a little.
You stated that he is a super stubborn dog. Well he is almost 6 months old and in my opinion it is time for him to grow up a bit. I also think a good bit of that is an inadvertently trained response. What I see is that he has been allowed to have his way a bit too much and it has become habit. He seems like a very nice little dog and has plenty of drive. I think he needs and can handle more discipline on your part.
Now on the retrieving part I would stop just tossing the bumper and letting him go. You need to start adding structure to your lessons instead of just mindless go go go. You want him to go but from what I see continuing on that path just creates neurotic behavior in retrieving. Ad structure I would no longer just let him go with out a release and I would use his name instead of the word fetch. Save fetch for force fetch. When you get to that point the word fetch needs to have special meaning. I would throw the bumper and hold on to him and only allow the retrieve when released on his name. Get down on the ground with him and hold on and judging by what I see from him I would not just hold him by the collar, he's just going to yank you around and lose focus on the bumper. I would put him between my legs with my left hand holding him behind and under his left leg and on his chest holding his front legs off the ground. Toss the bumper and release. Start by releasing him with his name before the bumper even hits the ground gradually holding him longer as his understanding of the game increases. I do this with puppies as soon as I know they have the drive and desire to retrieve generally around 12 weeks.
You are also waaaay better than I with a rope. To me a rope is the last resort and I only use it if I absolutely have to. I work hard to avoid it from the very start by teaching that coming back to me is just as fun as the retrieve and if he does he gets another. When I bring a pup home I am his whole world, I am mother! Bill Hillmans way is make him crazy for the retrieve and I say be careful what you ask for. In my opinion you have gone a bit far with that and need to gain some control. Balance is extremely important and should be kept in mind from day one. You now have issues that I believe could have been avoided and will be harder to correct. Not at all saying you have to be the a marine corp drill instructor (yet) but if you start out in the begining you can avoid that all together which is always my goal. It was mentioned not to reel him in like a fish and I agree with that method and with your rope skills it may work good for you. Me, I just get myself and the dog tangled. IF and I want to emphasize IF I ever do use a rope I do not even hold on to the rope just dont throw the bumper farther than the end of the rope, been there done that😑. He is coming back your direction but running past you. When he gets near I would just step on the rope so he cant get away and walk up the rope till I'm 3 or 4 feet away then get on my knees and coax him to me and if need be slight tugs off and on to get him too you then praise the livin crap out of him. Dont just chase him down and take the bumper get hi to come to you! Make coming to you as fun as the retrieve and teach him that bring it back gets him another retrieve. In your retrieves he is just mindlessly running fetching and keeping. When you REEL him in you just take the bumper and throw again with very little praise. Get animated and make coming back fun too! He need structure and discipline in his lessons but it need to be fun too.
To help with this I would start formal obedience NOW. I would go right now today and buy a prong collar. I have trained a good number of dogs and the prong collar is the very best tool I have if used correctly. In your last video you took a pretty good hike and you said he drug you all the way. I would put a stop to that asap! Put the prong collar on and use your rope when you go for a walk and let him learn by himself just where the end of the rope is. Never just let him pull on the rope. Let him feel the pressure of the collar then release the pressure on the rope. You really have to do nothing but let off pressure as he comes to the end of the rope then let him find the end again the release pressure he will teach himself. To me the prong collar is magical and takes very little pressure and training. Once he is conditioned to the prong collar you can start shortening up on the rope. I would probably make a new shorter rope for this, maybe about 10 feet then down to a 6 ft leash and start teaching him to heel. Actually lots of details to between the lines in a written post But it takes me for ever to write this. I hope this will help because I see a very nice pup and a guy that is excited about training him. I like an eager student in both man and beast and when I do I am eager to help. Keep up the good work!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

PS Mister Bora is not as dumb as he looks


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Steve Shaver said:


> Hi Jordan.
> I'll start by saying you do a great job with you videos. Wish I could do as well. Now if your dog training was as good as your videos you would have it made. Just teasin a little.
> You stated that he is a super stubborn dog. Well he is almost 6 months old and in my opinion it is time for him to grow up a bit. I also think a good bit of that is an inadvertently trained response. What I see is that he has been allowed to have his way a bit too much and it has become habit. He seems like a very nice little dog and has plenty of drive. I think he needs and can handle more discipline on your part.
> Now on the retrieving part I would stop just tossing the bumper and letting him go. You need to start adding structure to your lessons instead of just mindless go go go. You want him to go but from what I see continuing on that path just creates neurotic behavior in retrieving. Ad structure I would no longer just let him go with out a release and I would use his name instead of the word fetch. Save fetch for force fetch. When you get to that point the word fetch needs to have special meaning. I would throw the bumper and hold on to him and only allow the retrieve when released on his name. Get down on the ground with him and hold on and judging by what I see from him I would not just hold him by the collar, he's just going to yank you around and lose focus on the bumper. I would put him between my legs with my left hand holding him behind and under his left leg and on his chest holding his front legs off the ground. Toss the bumper and release. Start by releasing him with his name before the bumper even hits the ground gradually holding him longer as his understanding of the game increases. I do this with puppies as soon as I know they have the drive and desire to retrieve generally around 12 weeks.
> ...


Steve, I really appreciate the input! Everyone on this forum just keeps surprising me with their willingness help teach! I am really glad that I have consistently heard 3 times in a row now that I need more structure and discipline! Time to step up my game, and really be consistent. 
Again, thank you so much for the help!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Steve Shaver said:


> PS Mister Bora is not as dumb as he looks


Try and keep that a secret, it spoils my image. 









.


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

Something you might want to try is using a platform to send and receive the dog. I used a platform to help teach stand-alones. (Leaving dog on a sit, walking away, and throwing a bumper). A platform helps clarify to a dog what you want. Connie Cleveland is a big advocate of platforms. She uses dog cots for platforms: fairly inexpensive, light-weight (easy to carry around), and available in many sizes. In this video, you will see her using platforms for puppies doing retrieves:








Training your new Obedience puppy? How much can you really teach him?


Whether it's your next obedience, agility, scent work, tracking or field partner - here we discuss when to start training, how to select, and of course how to train your new puppy.




www.obedienceroad.com




The video is actually an advertisement for her $97 performance puppy course. I've never purchased it and can't vouch for it one way or the other, and am NOT suggesting you buy it. However, just watching the advertisement video, I think, will give you the idea about using platforms in combination with a long line. Connie Cleveland has put AFC or FCs (field trial championships) and OTCHs (Obedience Trial Championships) on multiple dogs. She is one of the best dog trainers in the world. Unfortunately, she doesn't have a training series devoted entirely to hunt/field training. (Her "Obedience Road" training set advertised on the same site is for competition obedience training; it would have little relevance to hunt training.)


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Hey Everyone,

Just finished my 4th episode with Banx! Taking everyones advice, I did start formal obedience this week and wow, am I having fun! Adding structure to his life has completely changed his behavior for the better. Still have LOTS to do, but extremely happy! I will admit that I need to be better on standards inside the home. If you watch the video from today vs. last week, I think you will notice that he is almost like a completely different dog.

Now it's just a matter of staying consistent, and keep having fun.

I appreciate everyones input, and really taking it all in without being overwhelmed. 

-Jordan


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

I apologize for the video quality in this Ep. 4. Not a clue what happened in my editing process, but it completely trashed the video quality. Super disappointed because this has been my favorite video yet...

I hope you guys can watch it through the terrible quality and still enjoy the content!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Another great video Jordan. You have a very smart dog. The sloppy sit you keep correcting with your arm. Is because your pup is so smart. In all of your healing in that video when you were walking you turned to your right. You did it so often that when you stop and your pup sits he sits in a fashion that he is anticipating you turning to your right. One time only at the 5:45 Mark in the video you turned to your left and said sit. This confused your pup and he actually sat perfectly and you praised him nicely good job. Doing your healing drills your turns must be both Direction and random to keep your pup from anticipating what way you are going because you have a smart pop his anticipation ability is high. And the part about forgetting your bumpers made me laugh. Over the years I have left ducks on the kitchen table forgot the shotgun 1 time one time only I forgot to put the dogs on the truck. That is something the Fellers in the training group don't let you forget.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Another great video Jordan. You have a very smart dog. The sloppy sit you keep correcting with your arm. Is because your pup is so smart. In all of your healing in that video when you were walking you turned to your right. You did it so often that when you stop and your pup sits he sits in a fashion that he is anticipating you turning to your right. One time only at the 5:45 Mark in the video you turned to your left and said sit. This confused your pup and he actually sat perfectly and you praised him nicely good job. Doing your healing drills your turns must be both Direction and random to keep your pup from anticipating what way you are going because you have a smart pop his anticipation ability is high. And the part about forgetting your bumpers made me laugh. Over the years I have left ducks on the kitchen table forgot the shotgun 1 time one time only I forgot to put the dogs on the truck. That is something the Fellers in the training group don't let you forget.


That is a very good observation Ken, thank you! I guess I started doing lots of right turns only because it was what would catch Banx off guard most of the time as he gets distracted looking to the left. I will definitely add more left turns and even it up. After a great conversation with Chris over the phone, he gave me some good arguments as to why I may want to consider heeling on both sides, and I just recently decided that is what I am going to do. I have not done any heeling on my right yet, only my left. How/when do I incorporate him heeling on my right side? Once he has a solid left side heel down? Or just randomly put him in heel using hand signals and walking him on left and right. 
Thanks again
-Jordan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

One of the longest-running arguments here on the RTF is single side vs. two-sided heeling. A great many Folk who try to follow closely the Mike lardy system heel both sides. A great many hunters heel both sides too many advantages to bother typing.
And a great many old school, hardcore field trial Folk with more blue ribbons than a Pabst Brewery heel single side.
I use both sides.
I would start right now.
I would not tell Ted Shih.😏


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> One of the longest-running arguments here on the RTF is single side vs. two-sided heeling. A great many Folk who try to follow closely the Mike lardy system heel both sides. A great many hunters heel both sides too many advantages to bother typing.
> And a great many old school, hardcore field trial Folk with more blue ribbons than a Pabst Brewery heel single side.
> I use both sides.
> I would start right now.
> I would not tell Ted Shih.😏





Dont tell me either  . I believe there is too much to worry about one side and two just adds to the confusion. I have tried it and just dont like it. Dog does fine but I dont😖. Very observant of you Ken on the turns and agree.
I would not reach down and physically put him in the correct position when he sits crooked. I would somewhat telegraph your intentions by slowing down and slightly put pressure on the lead and say sit while he is already in the proper position, dont wait for him to turn out and look up at you. Use the tools (leash/collar) you have to manipulate him into the proper position before he sits. I would do this now and always. I also would incorporate a heeling stick. Chain it together with the pressure on the collar by just a tap on the chest if he gets out in front of you or when you come to a stop and want a good sit. Also can use it with a tap on the butt if he doesnt sit right away. Condition him to the stick until you can use only the stick with a loose lead. The stick will become your leash when it is time to heel off leash.
One more thing I noticed was once when you had him at a remote sit he came to you without being asked. You made him sit and that was good but I would take him back to the spot where he broke the sit command and sit him there and walk away again.
I think you are doing an awesome job!!!!! I also think you are very fortunate to have such a nice little pup to learn with. He is an excellent pup for being a non black male Labrador😜😉. The video quality was fine and you are correct he is a whole different dog. Keep up the good work!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

PS nothing wrong with two sides, it jes aint for me


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## hrdcor32 (Sep 21, 2020)

Having a 13 week old Boykin that I plan to train myself, I am enjoying your videos. Certainly show a side of things that the pro programs do not spend much time on. Keep up the good work!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Steve said, "Will be looking forward to your next video."

I agree and from what you have done to start with places you way ahead of the curve for a "first timer". 

He also said, "Training books and videos don't tell you what to do if things don't go right. It is up to you to figure out how
to make things work."

Keep in mind that once you have successfully taught a skill, precise practice with many "reps" is significantly important.
Your pup is a quick, smart student. I can see where it would be easy to be swept up into making it a race. Speed limits
are cool.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Jordan, your earlier comment about doubles and Evan's program had me recalling that the particular stage
in his progression. It is often confused with marking when it is not. The pup is sent back to a spot that has
been already* identified*. It quickly becomes a longer three-legged pattern that can be revisited regularly.

*Eventually*, it can then be stretched to longer distances. As I recall back then there were many contrary
comments in forums about throwing doubles with a young pup.....when they aren't exactly marks and
involving memory. *The "pattern" takes marking out of the equation and focuses more on all of the other
skills of picking up bumpers and bringing them back to heel and deliver.*

Journal notes (excerpts) from long ago:

_* Archive from Daisy's Journal - the early months (February & March - 2006*_*) 

Feb 1, 2006 Daisy ran a 75 yard 3 legged-pattern (bumpers at 90° separation)*|

note: this is not what you start with.....it builds incrementally

*note: she crushed the 75 yard 3-legged pattern (right side heel & used *dead bird/back"),
bumpers are visible - watch this (visible bumpers) as Taffey became too dependent on visible bumpers,
so start mixing multiple bumper piles with orange, work mini-piles first and avoid cover (at first)

note: Daisy loves this "stuff"
note: still using "Kwick Bumpers" and her fetch/hold habits have been exceptional *

Daisy


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Jim, 

Thanks for the input on doubles! Not even looking to remotely try anything like that again for a while. I definitely need to build up to it while I learn along the way. Learned that the hard way already.  Daisy looks like a heck of a dog!


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Good evening everyone, just made another video for Banx.
Nothing interesting has changed in terms of training outside for obedience. He is slowly getting better every day. I decided to highlight the fact that I started collar conditioning! Just taking this at my own pace and learning tons! Appreciate all your guy's help and input. I wouldn't even be close to this point if it wasn't for all of your support!

Jordan


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Boykin Banx said:


> Good evening everyone, just made another video for Banx.
> Nothing interesting has changed in terms of training outside for obedience. He is slowly getting better every day. I decided to highlight the fact that I started collar conditioning! Just taking this at my own pace and learning tons! Appreciate all your guy's help and input. I wouldn't even be close to this point if it wasn't for all of your support!
> Jordan




Doin great Jordan! Nice job on building the bed too. Seems you are a multi talented guy.
I do not intend to stir controversy with my next comment, it is just my opinion. Hmmm trying to think of how to put this without sounding like a butt head cuz in print if I speak my my mind in the way I would express myself in person it wouldnt go well. Here goes, I very much dislike using treats for dog training. Yes you are getting great results but to me those results are misguided. When I am teaching a dog obedience I like the dog completely tuned to me as a whole and I dislike the dog staring up at me and specifically my hand looking for the treat. I know people that do OB trials like the dog looking up at them. I like the dog to be honed in on me and my whole body language without having to stare at me. Some might argue that focus on the hands would be good further down the line when teaching handling but they have no problem learning the later. By that time the bumper is the treat. I simply dont think treats are necessary and again to me training with treats is misguiding focus. I work hard from the day I bring a pup home to become that pups whole world. I am mother, I am their treat, bumpers and retrieving are their treat even OB training is a treat. I am the one that feeds them so they look to me for that but it is the only time I use food for a reward. Making training fun and exciting is all the treat a dog needs.

Now with this guy it's another story you would get nowhere with out using treats. I even use a clicker. Birds are very smart but have a whole different mentality than a dog.


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

You and Banx are doing great! 

I respectively disagree with Steve on training obedience with treats. I primarily train for competitive obedience trials. OB is not intrinsically rewarding, like retrieving is for a retriever. It's difficult to get a dog to keep trying to get those straight fronts and finishes (boooorrrrring) without treats. My current boy is trained for OB about 80% of the time, with lots of treats and toy chasing, and major emphasis on watching me all the time. 

Hunt training? No interest in treats or looking at me and I don't ask him to. When we walk to a mat, he is scanning the area ahead for the birds. He is most definitely not looking at me or my hands. 

More convincingly, perhaps, Connie Cleveland, who has about 7 million times more credibility than I do when it comes training either OB or field, uses treats for OB.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

PalouseDogs said:


> You and Banx are doing great!
> 
> I respectively disagree with Steve on training obedience with treats. I primarily train for competitive obedience trials. OB is not intrinsically rewarding, like retrieving is for a retriever. It's difficult to get a dog to keep trying to get those straight fronts and finishes (boooorrrrring) without treats. My current boy is trained for OB about 80% of the time, with lots of treats and toy chasing, and major emphasis on watching me all the time.
> 
> ...


Everyone sees the world through their own experiences and realities.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. 

A retrieve for a well-bred retriever (And for a majority of the pitbulls that I've met!) is like CANDY.

There are many ways to trip the trigger of a dog. The trick is to read the dog and truly understand what it wants, what you the human wants, and how to connect the dots.

Be fair, be consistent, be patient... the sky's the limit.

I've had the good fortune to throw marks for Bridget Carlson before and watch her handle a dog live. She knows a bit about training.... 

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Doin great Jordan! Nice job on building the bed too. Seems you are a multi talented guy.
> I do not intend to stir controversy with my next comment, it is just my opinion. Hmmm trying to think of how to put this without sounding like a butt head cuz in print if I speak my my mind in the way I would express myself in person it wouldnt go well. Here goes, I very much dislike using treats for dog training. Yes you are getting great results but to me those results are misguided. When I am teaching a dog obedience I like the dog completely tuned to me as a whole and I dislike the dog staring up at me and specifically my hand looking for the treat. I know people that do OB trials like the dog looking up at them. I like the dog to be honed in on me and my whole body language without having to stare at me. Some might argue that focus on the hands would be good further down the line when teaching handling but they have no problem learning the later. By that time the bumper is the treat. I simply dont think treats are necessary and again to me training with treats is misguiding focus. I work hard from the day I bring a pup home to become that pups whole world. I am mother, I am their treat, bumpers and retrieving are their treat even OB training is a treat. I am the one that feeds them so they look to me for that but it is the only time I use food for a reward. Making training fun and exciting is all the treat a dog needs.
> 
> Now with this guy it's another story you would get nowhere with out using treats. I even use a clicker. Birds are very smart but have a whole different mentality than a dog.
> ...


Steve, I think the beauty of what your retrievers get is pretty darn early exposure to the awesomeness of the retrieve. 

I'm not much of a treat guy either. But if I didn't have the endorphine rush that I condition my dogs to get by obeying to get that retrieve (or the one that the smartphone user gets for receiving a like) I'd have to find another pay... A treat for a hungry dog is a pretty good motivator in boring old obedience.

Nowadays I'm not a fan of "formal obedience" that starts at any one day. I like the puppy to think that every day is just like the one before, and I'm tricking the puppy into advancing to the next step. There is no sudden day where, for example: Today is the day we have to be steady. But I think BoykinBanx is likely doing his best to cover the music of Evan Graham - and I think for a new musician, covering an older musician note-for-note is better than combining pieces from various sources before having enough experience to know how all the pieces from different players fit together. 

Chris


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Steve, I think the beauty of what your retrievers get is pretty darn early exposure to the awesomeness of the retrieve.
> 
> I'm not much of a treat guy either. But if I didn't have the endorphine rush that I condition my dogs to get by obeying to get that retrieve (or the one that the smartphone user gets for receiving a like) I'd have to find another pay... A treat for a hungry dog is a pretty good motivator in boring old obedience.
> 
> ...





Mr Atkinson ranks right up there with Mr Bora on the not as dumb as he looks scale!! 😜 😜 😉


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Mr Atkinson ranks right up there with Mr Bora on the not as dumb as he looks scale!! 😜 😜 😉


Watch your phone if you want to see ugly.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

PalouseDogs said:


> You and Banx are doing great!
> 
> I respectively disagree with Steve on training obedience with treats. I primarily train for competitive obedience trials. OB is not intrinsically rewarding, like retrieving is for a retriever. It's difficult to get a dog to keep trying to get those straight fronts and finishes (boooorrrrring) without treats. My current boy is trained for OB about 80% of the time, with lots of treats and toy chasing, and major emphasis on watching me all the time.
> 
> ...










Completely understand. Cannot argue with success especially from the likes of Connie Cleveland but I would be willing to bet she could do it without treats. For me using treats is kinda like two sided heeling, just not for me. 
I will argue the point that obedience is "booooorrring". The above link is my dog Bill. Watch his tail. You cannot tell me this dog is bored, he is enjoying what he is doing. I have not done obedience trials and Bill in this video may or may not hold up to OB trial standards I have no idea what those standards are but I firmly believe I could easily train for OB trials without treats. I guess you could say treats are just like any other tool so why not use it. I just cannot wrap my head around it. I prefer building a relationship and team work and plain ol' communication between me and my dog. With that being said TO ME and that's just me but if I were using treats the dog would be performing for the wrong reason.
Can you post a video of you doing OB trial training. I seriously would be interested to see what those standards are.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Watch your phone if you want to see ugly.


Speakin' of - somebody called me about a job reference for one "Billy O." O'Brien (NOT the generic "bill ob" in the upper left-hand corner of Steve Shaver's video), and I was resolute in deferring to your analytical graces.

Also, it recently occurred to me that young George might be the namesake of the other Pa brother and was fit with said handle as reflects your intercollegiate pigskin loyalty. (We rtf CFB threaders are ever reminded of those days when - every time upon commenting on the current season - the "Recommended Reading" panel inevitably provides as a first option "Put Chris A. on suicide watch" or something similar that betides, er, sorry that betokens something gone awry in the Nittany Valley).

And on a serious or at least semi-serious note, always happy to see you "reinvested" in rtf with your training counsel.

MG


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

How is everything going Jordan? Haven't heard from you in a couple of weeks.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> How is everything going Jordan? Haven't heard from you in a couple of weeks.


Going really good Ken! Thanks for checking in. Actually working on editing a video right now. Should have it up late tonight or early in the morning! Training has been very good. Heeling off leash and have him coming back with the bumper finally.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Hey everyone! Sorry for the couple week break. There has been no break in training! Only the filming and editing as I began my MBA classes. I started heeling off leash with the ecollar and heeling stick and wow, what a difference. Training is so much more enjoyable without a leash. Also just the freedom to take him out for potty breaks with full control and not needing to hook up a leash has been such a relief. I know I have a long way to go, and not perfect by any means with the freedoms I give him. But I know we are both having a ton of fun, and I am more than satisfied.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Looking a very good Jordan. Nice use of your new healing stick. Nice attitude in the pup still a bit of a bounce that's a good thing he is having fun. Your on the cusp of greatness. It would really benefit you right now if you had someone out in your field tossing. It would give him something to turn and look at for the next throw. Right now when he comes to you one yard away and is messing around a little bit if there was a person in the field he might just come to heal and look for the next toss it is very helpful. Also as he is approaching you and he is that one yard away just turn around and start walking and say heal it will give him something else to do other than mess around. Soon you'll be doing the bird in mouth singles then back to the simple doubles you were trying before.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Good work Jordan!


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Looking a very good Jordan. Nice use of your new healing stick. Nice attitude in the pup still a bit of a bounce that's a good thing he is having fun. Your on the cusp of greatness. It would really benefit you right now if you had someone out in your field tossing. It would give him something to turn and look at for the next throw. Right now when he comes to you one yard away and is messing around a little bit if there was a person in the field he might just come to heal and look for the next toss it is very helpful. Also as he is approaching you and he is that one yard away just turn around and start walking and say heal it will give him something else to do other than mess around. Soon you'll be doing the bird in mouth singles then back to the simple doubles you were trying before.


Appreciate the Input Ken! That does make sense. I need to order a pile more of bumpers. I had my wife throwing bumpers from 75ish yards away. Was a pain with only 2 bumpers. Having a bucket of them and being able to throw from and to different locations would be much more beneficial. I like the idea of turning and getting him to walk on heel when he comes back. Great idea and will give it a try today.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Your video records will prove to be quite useful. After watching this last one....wow! he has come a long way...in a short time.
I did take a brief review of the 10+ minute time frame and questioned "Does he want tugging, etc. to be part of a set of conditioned
responses?" You might think about that as you near a more focused FF process. Tugging helps to engage a not very exited
pup...yours does not fit that mold. 

Ken suggested an alternative to the "messing around" (that is being encouraged).


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## hrdcor32 (Sep 21, 2020)

Nice work, enjoying following along @Boykin Banx 

Are you using the e-collar on bumper retrieves? If so, just nicks or continuous until he returns?

I'm having the same issue with pup retrieving fine but not wanting to return all the way. Haven't started collar conditioning yet so just learning everything I can about it now.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

KwickLabs said:


> Your video records will prove to be quite useful. After watching this last one....wow! he has come a long way...in a short time.
> I did take a brief review of the 10+ minute time frame and questioned "Does he want tugging, etc. to be part of a set of conditioned
> responses?" You might think about that as you near a more focused FF process. Tugging helps to engage a not very exited
> pup...yours does not fit that mold.
> ...


Appreciate the comment Jim! I have thought about the tugging, and was considering stopping it before now, but so far 80% of the time when I say release, he releases. Which I am fine with. I find a little trade off where it seems to give him more engagement with the rest of the training by adding that little bit of fun.

Also, regarding Ken's advice on walking away while commanding heel... Tried it on my lunch break, worked wonderfully! Got him into heel, walked about 10 steps and turned him back into a sit. And threw the bumper again. Will work this for the next couple weeks.

Question, as I approach FF, when do I know he is ready? His adult teeth are all in place (Not fully grown yet though). I understand that I can and will keep working OB during the FF period, and also know you don't necessarily want to keep running marks during that time so he doesn't lose the hold habits. Should I give him a couple more weeks of OB and marks like I am doing before I start hold conditioning to start the FF process?

Jordan


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

hrdcor32 said:


> Nice work, enjoying following along @Boykin Banx
> 
> Are you using the e-collar on bumper retrieves? If so, just nicks or continuous until he returns?
> 
> I'm having the same issue with pup retrieving fine but not wanting to return all the way. Haven't started collar conditioning yet so just learning everything I can about it now.


I do use the e-collar on his retrieves when he doesn't listen. When I first collar conditioned him, he would run hard to the bumper, smash it, and stand there. After I said here, I would "nick" him while set on continuous (around 20 on a 100 scale) and as soon as he made the move in my direction I would stop. If he stopped, I would say "here" and nick again. And if he didn't come I would repeat "here" while giving him constant nicks, and depending on reaction, would start turning up the stimulation. Eventually it would click and he would come all the way to me. Now, 1 out of 10 retrieves I use the collar and it's usually only when he gets distracted. I rarely actually use the continuous mode in a continuous way as I seem to have a better reaction from Banx with the tapping sensation than a constant stim. I do keep the continuous mode on however just in case there is an emergency where I need to use everything resource I got. 

My Ep. 4 video shows the process I used to really condition him to "here" before using the ecollar. The quality sucks because I missed a step in editing (sorry)... A long check chord, and walking out while leaving him at sit, then saying "here" with a slight tug, really helped with Banx.

I hope this helps.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I sometimes need to review, refresh and focus. The following link is helpful. 

*https://web.archive.org/web/20031011093148/http://www.gunclub-labs.com/tip_apr01.html*


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Couple quick answers...
I think you could ease into FF now. Hold at least. Is it covered in the set of videos you have? Watch them completely and have a plan in your head before you start. As opposed to watching 15 minutes, going to the yard with the pup and trying what you just viewed. 
And contrary to the urban myth, you can. And I think you should keep playing fetch when you FF. Just be mindful to not give a command you can't enforce or the pup doesn't know. 
And finally, I apologize. I did not realize you had only 2 bumpers at this time. What you can do now is make a couple stick men. As you are basically doing stand alone marks already. What is a stick man you ask? A scarecrow, a simple rod or umbrella stand you place out in the field. Attach a wire hanger to and hput a shirt on. Gives the illusion of people. Make two. Sit pup, walk out and stand next to one toss bumper walk back to pup and release him. Then walk to the other and repeat. Start easy, you can even release while you are at the stick man. You almost did this in this most recent episode when you added text saying you should have stopped him. This could tide you over until a bucket of bumpers arrives. 

Great job keep it fun!


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## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

Boykin Banx said:


> Hey everyone! Sorry for the couple week break. There has been no break in training! Only the filming and editing as I began my MBA classes. I started heeling off leash with the ecollar and heeling stick and wow, what a difference. Training is so much more enjoyable without a leash. Also just the freedom to take him out for potty breaks with full control and not needing to hook up a leash has been such a relief. I know I have a long way to go, and not perfect by any means with the freedoms I give him. But I know we are both having a ton of fun, and I am more than satisfied.


Hi, you and Banx are doing great, I enjoy your videos and am following your training.

I noticed two things you might find helpful (or not):

First, I noticed your guy tend to be intimidated by your heeling stick a couple times early in the video. Think of your heeling stick like I think you mentioned earlier as an extension of your arm, and not just for control, use it to pet him as an extension of your arm too. That should help comfort him when he's doing well and help reduce any skittishness he may have to your heeling stick.

And the other thing I noticed that pretty consistently, when commanding Here, that you say "Banx, Here". I would suggest that you consider eliminating saying his name before the Here command. Banx is his command to retrieve, save his name for that.

You are doing great work with him, looking forward to seeing more as you progress


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

Try asking him to sit before you reach for the bumper. If you reach down to take a bumper from a standing dog, even an older, experienced dog will often do that head drop and duck thing, but ask the same dog to sit first and they are less likely to drop their head. You might also bring that platform you made out in the field with you and have him return to the platform next to you. Gives him something to aim for instead of thinking about how you'll take it away.

I agree, it's time to get a pile of bumpers. SportDog sells them in bundles of 6 (?), I think. Get about 12 white or black/white and 12 orange. In the meantime, start doing stand-alone marks. You can walk further away. You don't have to walk back. Leave him in a sit/stay on his platform. (He can't creep on his platform.) Do a remote release. Time to start introducing more cover to the marks. At first, do short marks into heavy cover, medium marks into medium cover, and long marks into short cover. 

He's doing great.


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

8mmag said:


> Hi, you and Banx are doing great, I enjoy your videos and am following your training.
> 
> I noticed two things you might find helpful (or not):
> 
> ...


I appreciate the input! I had a good conversation with Steve Shaver on the phone for using the heeling stick. He pointed out the constant pressure I used in the beginning with the stick. I did notice this, and have tried to refrain from doing so. I think there were distractions that took him a few repetitions to get comfortable. Lastly, he gave me a good description on how to properly hold it so the pup doesn't necessarily have it right next to him the entire time and wont focus on it. And use quick movements to get him back into position when he falls out.
I have never actually seen one used, so making it up as I go. I will work on getting him more comfortable with it.
Also appreciate the note on eliminating "Banx" when I say "here"!


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

PalouseDogs said:


> Try asking him to sit before you reach for the bumper. If you reach down to take a bumper from a standing dog, even an older, experienced dog will often do that head drop and duck thing, but ask the same dog to sit first and they are less likely to drop their head. You might also bring that platform you made out in the field with you and have him return to the platform next to you. Gives him something to aim for instead of thinking about how you'll take it away.
> 
> I agree, it's time to get a pile of bumpers. SportDog sells them in bundles of 6 (?), I think. Get about 12 white or black/white and 12 orange. In the meantime, start doing stand-alone marks. You can walk further away. You don't have to walk back. Leave him in a sit/stay on his platform. (He can't creep on his platform.) Do a remote release. Time to start introducing more cover to the marks. At first, do short marks into heavy cover, medium marks into medium cover, and long marks into short cover.
> 
> He's doing great.


Thanks Kelly! I was actually going to look into getting a platform to hunt from, or make another one for outside training purposes. I will definitely start walking out and doing longer marks. I have a nice field across the street I can go in to start introducing more cover.
When I start to introduce cover, do I need to add any scent to the bumpers? What is the best way to go about it when he is searching for the bumper? Also, now in 2021, canvas vs plastics?


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## hrdcor32 (Sep 21, 2020)

Boykin Banx said:


> I do use the e-collar on his retrieves when he doesn't listen. When I first collar conditioned him, he would run hard to the bumper, smash it, and stand there. After I said here, I would "nick" him while set on continuous (around 20 on a 100 scale) and as soon as he made the move in my direction I would stop. If he stopped, I would say "here" and nick again. And if he didn't come I would repeat "here" while giving him constant nicks, and depending on reaction, would start turning up the stimulation. Eventually it would click and he would come all the way to me. Now, 1 out of 10 retrieves I use the collar and it's usually only when he gets distracted. I rarely actually use the continuous mode in a continuous way as I seem to have a better reaction from Banx with the tapping sensation than a constant stim. I do keep the continuous mode on however just in case there is an emergency where I need to use everything resource I got.
> 
> My Ep. 4 video shows the process I used to really condition him to "here" before using the ecollar. The quality sucks because I missed a step in editing (sorry)... A long check chord, and walking out while leaving him at sit, then saying "here" with a slight tug, really helped with Banx.
> 
> I hope this helps.


Makes sense, thanks!

Best source I've found for bumpers (great customer service too): Standard Bird Dog Training Bumpers / Dummy


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

The rule of thumb is canvas bumpers in the winter time plastic bumpers in the summertime a plastic bumper has been known to shatter on the hard ground in the colder temperatures. As for adding scent the ropes on your bumpers already smell like your hands. Although I have been known to carry bumpers and a duck or two in the same 5 gallon bucket going out in the field to throw. The ropes of the bumper is actually hold more sent than the bumper itself unless the bumper is a canvas bumper. As to the best way to go about it when the dog is searching for the bumper in cover, I encourage the dog vocally tell him to find their bumper or their there duck or whatever they are looking for find it where is your bumper find it with an encouraging upbeat tone.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)




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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)




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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

hrdcor32 said:


> Makes sense, thanks!
> 
> Best source I've found for bumpers (great customer service too): Standard Bird Dog Training Bumpers / Dummy





Looked at these and thought what a great deal until I went to check out. Wanted all black bumpers cuz I cant find them anymore. Anyway ordering 5 bumpers and the shipping was more than the bumpers. Decided I didnt need them that much.


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## Tracker (Dec 9, 2020)

Steve Shaver said:


>


Thank you for posting this. Like Jordan, I am also using the Smartwork program and had some questions on simple things like the use of a heeling stick (I bought one but wasn't sure how to use it). This is incredibly helpful


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Steve Shaver said:


> Looked at these and thought what a great deal until I went to check out. Wanted all black bumpers cuz I cant find them anymore. Anyway ordering 5 bumpers and the shipping was more than the bumpers. Decided I didnt need them that much.


I also use all black bumpers and just found these RRANK GUNDOGS | Shop From my analysis they are similar to the old ez rotational bumpers in weight and style. And they are cheaper than most other bumpers around. Don't know how they will hold up to cold weather training as we don't get many days below freezing here.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Shipping is a little cheaper that those others but bumpers look the same and same price. Are they pliable or hard and stiff? I ordered 6 of these so we'll see. At $2.50 a bumper Im not expecting much. I usually would buy the Lucky Dog bumpers they stay pliable even in the cold.. For me they have always been the best and cheapest. The price has risen over the years but I have probably 50 or more that I have had for 20 plus years and never need to replace them, well unless I run over them with the lawn mower 😖. I have some large black one but rarely use them I like the small ones. I dont use bumpers for marks just pile work..

PS. love your signature line!


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

Steve Shaver said:


>


Steve my man! Coming through with those awesome videos! Those helped more than you could ever know. 
Definitely helps with the handling of the heeling stick. I was putting too much reliance on it and quite honestly think I moved too quickly away from off leash heeling. I could have saved some headache in the training aspect, but also by moving onto off leash stuff, I have saved much headache of dealing with a lead over the last couple weeks.
I really liked seeing how close your dog stayed to your side. I have trouble with Banx wondering out a little ways from my side, but without any experience, I am not sure how far I should have been allowing. Seeing your dog keep her head back and close shows me that I have been letting Banx inch forward a little far as well as away from my side horizontally a little far. I do like your comments on two sided heeling as well. I think the one benefit I see to myself is my wife for two sided heeling is our walking downtown cities and such and being able to have the dog on either side depending on which side of the road we are on and when people are walking towards/around us. At this point, I have spent this much time doing both, I might as well keep it up!

You make it look too easy!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Boykin Banx said:


> Steve my man! Coming through with those awesome videos! Those helped more than you could ever know.
> Definitely helps with the handling of the heeling stick. I was putting too much reliance on it and quite honestly think I moved too quickly away from off leash heeling. I could have saved some headache in the training aspect, but also by moving onto off leash stuff, I have saved much headache of dealing with a lead over the last couple weeks.
> I really liked seeing how close your dog stayed to your side. I have trouble with Banx wondering out a little ways from my side, but without any experience, I am not sure how far I should have been allowing. Seeing your dog keep her head back and close shows me that I have been letting Banx inch forward a little far as well as away from my side horizontally a little far. I do like your comments on two sided heeling as well. I think the one benefit I see to myself is my wife for two sided heeling is our walking downtown cities and such and being able to have the dog on either side depending on which side of the road we are on and when people are walking towards/around us. At this point, I have spent this much time doing both, I might as well keep it up!
> 
> You make it look too easy!




Now there are good examples of two sided heeling, it depends on which side your wife is heeling on😁. Dont tell her that unless she knows Im smiling and just kidding and then I hope she has a sense of humor.
Never move too fast! Make sure your dog is ready to move to the next phase before doing so. Even if you do move on and it doesnt go too well dont be afraid to back up a bit. Always tie things together. When the dog understands the prong collar go to the slip lead and make sure he understands that. Then tie the pressure of the slip lead with the use of the heeling stick then the same with the stick pressure to the e collar. Just tie them all together one step at a time to make sure they understand what your asking when using the different tools. Make sure your dog understands what heel means and the use of the stick before you take him off lead.
It only looks easy because it is if you do it gradually and in sequence. If you dont it can be a pain in the a$$.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Those are a couple of great instructional videos Steve good job. One thing that I didn't pick up on right away but when I watch them the second time today I realized something you and I do differently. And it's funny it's just the way I was taught years ago it's not right or wrong there are so many different ways to beat a dog with a stick😎.
I always have my stick in the hand that the dog is on the side of. I am a two-sided, as we discussed earlier. If the dog is on my left my stick is in my left hand if dog is on the right my stick is in my right hand. If it's one of those marking setups that I want to send for one bird from my left and send for another bird from my right I'll put the stick in the other hand while the dog is in the field. When the dog is returning I put that hand down to the side and the dog will come to heal on that side. My toes will be pointed at the next bird and so in the end the dog, in Theory is lined up and ready to go for the next bird. If I want to put the hand down to send the dog for the first bird of a marking set up I just hold the stick with my thumb up along my forearm so my fingers can point forward to my hand can go down. So, stick in hand on dog side other hand holding remote for tossers or remote for collar was how I was taught. I also have the same longer stick from a tack shop as well as multiple days end dogs afield ones.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Those are a couple of great instructional videos Steve good job. One thing that I didn't pick up on right away but when I watch them the second time today I realized something you and I do differently. And it's funny it's just the way I was taught years ago it's not right or wrong there are so many different ways to beat a dog with a stick😎.
> I always have my stick in the hand that the dog is on the side of. I am a two-sided, as we discussed earlier. If the dog is on my left my stick is in my left hand if dog is on the right my stick is in my right hand. If it's one of those marking setups that I want to send for one bird from my left and send for another bird from my right I'll put the stick in the other hand while the dog is in the field. When the dog is returning I put that hand down to the side and the dog will come to heal on that side. My toes will be pointed at the next bird and so in the end the dog, in Theory is lined up and ready to go for the next bird. If I want to put the hand down to send the dog for the first bird of a marking set up I just hold the stick with my thumb up along my forearm so my fingers can point forward to my hand can go down. So, stick in hand on dog side other hand holding remote for tossers or remote for collar was how I was taught. I also have the same longer stick from a tack shop as well as multiple days end dogs afield ones.




Oh do I have some good smart a$$ answers for that but it will have to wait till morning😁😂🤣😆😉


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Those are a couple of great instructional videos Steve good job. One thing that I didn't pick up on right away but when I watch them the second time today I realized something you and I do differently. And it's funny it's just the way I was taught years ago it's not right or wrong there are so many different ways to beat a dog with a stick😎.
> I always have my stick in the hand that the dog is on the side of. I am a two-sided, as we discussed earlier. If the dog is on my left my stick is in my left hand if dog is on the right my stick is in my right hand. If it's one of those marking setups that I want to send for one bird from my left and send for another bird from my right I'll put the stick in the other hand while the dog is in the field. When the dog is returning I put that hand down to the side and the dog will come to heal on that side. My toes will be pointed at the next bird and so in the end the dog, in Theory is lined up and ready to go for the next bird. If I want to put the hand down to send the dog for the first bird of a marking set up I just hold the stick with my thumb up along my forearm so my fingers can point forward to my hand can go down. So, stick in hand on dog side other hand holding remote for tossers or remote for collar was how I was taught. I also have the same longer stick from a tack shop as well as multiple days end dogs afield ones.




Nothing wrong with your method of stick use. I like the stick in the hand on the opposite of the dog. It is much easier to control too much forward movement with a tap to the chest or simply putting the stick out in front of the dog. I am one sided with dog on the left and the only time I have the stick in my left hand is when marks are going off so that Im ready for a butt whack if it comes off the ground. Funny thing is im pretty useless left handed except for shooting.
Another funny thing is when I read your description of stick use and two sided heeling I picture you in a pink tutu and ballet shoes 😖 😜.
On a serious note way too much going on there for me. If you can do it thats great I just like to keep things a little more simple. My thinking is geared towards handling a dog in competition so the less I have to think about the better and I believe the same for the dog.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Boykin Banx said:


> Steve my man! Coming through with those awesome videos! Those helped more than you could ever know.
> Definitely helps with the handling of the heeling stick. I was putting too much reliance on it and quite honestly think I moved too quickly away from off leash heeling. I could have saved some headache in the training aspect, but also by moving onto off leash stuff, I have saved much headache of dealing with a lead over the last couple weeks.
> *I really liked seeing how close your dog stayed to your side. I have trouble with Banx wondering out a little ways from my side, but without any experience, I am not sure how far I should have been allowing. Seeing your dog keep her head back and close shows me that I have been letting Banx inch forward a little far as well as away from my side horizontally a little far.* I do like your comments on two sided heeling as well. I think the one benefit I see to myself is my wife for two sided heeling is our walking downtown cities and such and being able to have the dog on either side depending on which side of the road we are on and when people are walking towards/around us. At this point, I have spent this much time doing both, I might as well keep it up!
> 
> You make it look too easy!



Just to comment on the bolded statement above that was all set in stone way before the use of the heeling stick. That starts in the beginning when setting boundaries with the prong collar. Once the dog understands the prong collar which is almost immediately I shorten up the leash and keep a tight standard. I hold the leash probably 4 to 6 inches from the collar. You may need to be a little more if your taller or with a smaller dog. The standard is set there then you can progress to just the slip lead. I might ad that when teaching heel with the prong collar I have no other collar on the dog. Especially the ecollar, it just gets in the way. Once I can progress to the slip lead I will also get the dog use to wearing the ecollar. Pretty easy to keep those two separate. If Garmin collars had a D ring I would just clip a leash to that and not bother with the slip lead.
Each tool is just used to wean or transition the dog from one to the other to eventually no tool at all.


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## hrdcor32 (Sep 21, 2020)

How is Banks doing @Boykin Banx ? Any videos on the horizon? Hope all is well!


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## woodford86 (Aug 20, 2020)

Does anyone have a source for Smartfetch in Canada? Only vendor I know of is Gundog Supply and they don't ship up here anymore...


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## Boykin Banx (Nov 27, 2020)

hrdcor32 said:


> How is Banks doing @Boykin Banx ? Any videos on the horizon? Hope all is well!


He is doing very well! I'm sorry I have not posted. I had a hard time finding motivation in filming when it was below 20 degrees for the couple months. We have been working pretty well with obedience on all our daily walks. In hindsight, I wish I would have started hold conditioning to move into force fetch a month ago.... Oh well, no going back no, only moving forward and having fun every step of the way! I plan to do a video here fairly soon now that we have been seeing days in the 40's. Makes it a little more motivating. 

Woodford, I unfortunately do not know of any sources to Canada .


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## hrdcor32 (Sep 21, 2020)

Boykin Banx said:


> He is doing very well! I'm sorry I have not posted. I had a hard time finding motivation in filming when it was below 20 degrees for the couple months. We have been working pretty well with obedience on all our daily walks. In hindsight, I wish I would have started hold conditioning to move into force fetch a month ago.... Oh well, no going back no, only moving forward and having fun every step of the way! I plan to do a video here fairly soon now that we have been seeing days in the 40's. Makes it a little more motivating.
> 
> Woodford, I unfortunately do not know of any sources to Canada .


Awesome, glad to hear things are progressing! My Boykin just turned 5 months and is the middle of teething. Focusing on OB and plan to start Hold/FF in another month or so once the teething isn't an issue.


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