# Hard chargers



## fowler25 (May 25, 2011)

If you were wanting to get a pup that would hopefully turn out to be a really high drivin hard charging dog or what I have seen referred to on here as a balls to the wall dog but also a good marker what are some names you would look for in the pedigree? Or what sire and dam would you look for to be bred? I understand clearances and health are a top priority but providing all that is good who would u want a pup from if you were looking for on with these traits.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

ive seen some pups out of road warrior, or general patton, that were faster than I would ever want


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Everyone claims their dog is a hard charger...and in most ways they are probably right....until the time they run into a real bonafide fire breathing,hellion on wheels.....the point being, the term hard charger is probably the most overused description ever used in the world of competition retrievers...

Hard charging doesnt mean squat if the dog goes awol over the hill and overshoots a mark by the length of a football field, or is so out of control that it cant be stopped in time to make a cast

There are bloodlines that have the reputation for producing fire breathers, some are well deserved and some are marginal...if you are up to the task,write the check and hold on for the ride


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## fowler25 (May 25, 2011)

BonMallarri what bloodlines are u referring to that throw these real fire breathing pups. Thanks


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## Laurie McCain (Apr 12, 2008)

Be careful what you wish for.

Laurie


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

first fowl25,
Chessie, Golden or Lab?


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## Tim McGarry (Jun 22, 2010)

FC Cosmo!!


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## JBell (Feb 10, 2011)

I have a ford and ranger grandson. Not sure who's to blame but he is demonic! Fun to run. Just hate the steadiness issues that I have been pounding for 2 1/2 years now. He thinks every bird is his.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

jbell, I'm glad I am not the only one with a dog who thinks every bird is his. I can also identify with the pounding of the steadiness issues.

I would agree with Bon that "hard charger" is probably grossly overused. I would also say that if my dog is not a hard charger then I don't ever need to actually own one.


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## fowler25 (May 25, 2011)

Ken. It would be another lab. Thanks for the replies.


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

As stated above; be careful what you wish for. These types of dog come with unique problelms that takes experience to handle. Reread Bon's post.
Good luck
GG


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

fowler25 said:


> BonMallarri what bloodlines are u referring to that throw these real fire breathing pups. Thanks


FC AFC Dare to Dream (Cosmo)...know a few that have current Cosmo pups/dogs and they all verify that their dogs can flat out mark and get to and from with a real sense of urgency...seems to even show in a few that have grandson/daughters


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

fowler - is this future puppy for you? What are your goals for this "demon spawn?" What temperament of dog(s) have you trained in the past? what resources do you have available to help you train such a puppy?

And i ask these question not to be an arse, but to really help you think about what you are proposing...

FOM


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Everyone thinks they want to own a Ferrari...but only a handful know how to drive it effectively


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

I would rather have "A lot of dog" or a "Hell of a dog" than a "fire breather". I think most knowledgeable breeders try to produce "A lot of dog" for the big courageous retrieves needed in the FT game. Having the training skills needed to take a hard charging puppy and make him into "a lot of dog" is what wins ribbons. The knowledge to control that drive and focus and mold him into a controlled marking machine is a pure talent. If people don't have the ability or knowledge to do that, they are probably better off getting dogs with a "good on/off switch". That "on/off switch" doesn't make it less of a dog by any means. Probably just better suited for most handlers.

Hard charging puppies I have seen have come from a lot of different dogs. Some of which are:
* Cosmo
* Chopper
* Patton
* Lean Mac


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Everyone thinks they want to own a Ferrari...but only a handful know how to drive it effectively


Sometimes I have trouble controlling my old F150.


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## GilWlsn (Jan 18, 2008)

lem said:


> be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Laurie


amean! Aviator is at 9 months. Retriever drive is preditorial


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I trained with a person for a few weeks that had a fire breather, It wzas exciting to watch the dog run marks and just pin them. However after about the first week I wanted to kill the dog cause every time they would come to the line it was a battle, because the dog just did not care about anything but getting to the bird. It could care less about pain, and the heeling was a joke because the dog just wanted to get to the line, and then would creep as birds were going down or just break. I don't want a "fire beather" and I don't want to train with someone that has one.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> FC AFC Dare to Dream (Cosmo)...know a few that have current Cosmo pups/dogs and they all verify that their dogs can flat out mark and get to and from with a real sense of urgency...seems to even show in a few that have grandson/daughters


'Urgency' is a great word to describe how my Cosmo dog works. "Obsessive" is another, but there are drawbacks. Whenever I see Cosmo's ad in RFTN I often think how much fun it would be to have a little Cosmo pup and just as often think I am nuts for thinking that. If I do, I think his registered name will be "Re-heel your dog"


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Cosmo (Dare to Dream) and Chopper (Road Warrior), but be careful what you wish for, I've seen many a Pro have a hard-time handling these dogs. 
Other stud, with go but more control, High Tech CEO, PDQ, Rebel, and even a little NITRO sometimes


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## Shooter94 (Jun 28, 2012)

I am aware of and have seen several dogs out of the Ebonstar Lean Mac breedings that I would consider hard chargers. It seems to carry forward for several generations too. I have a fourth generation Lean Mac yellow male who is just relentless!


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## fowler25 (May 25, 2011)

FOM said:


> fowler - is this future puppy for you? What are your goals for this "demon spawn?" What temperament of dog(s) have you trained in the past? what resources do you have available to help you train such a puppy?
> 
> And i ask these question not to be an arse, but to really help you think about what you are proposing...
> 
> ...


I have a one now who is very high and what I would consider to be a ball of fire. He sounds as if he nearly knocks the breath out of himself when he makes his water entry and you definatley have to keep your whistle in your mouth. But he is definatly a joy to train and watch do his thing and to have in the house. The pup would be for hunting mostly and I run about 6 hunt test during the off season. And I train with an older field trial pro who no longer competes 3 to 4 days a week.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

The bird craziness (or just plain fire breathing craziness) can jump several generations from Cosmo. His son Carbon did not have the crazies; Carbon's son Chopper did not have it. Cosmo's fire breathing does surface in Chopper's get (no matter the bitch to whom Chopper was bred; it just crops up.) Our experience training with several Chopper pups is that they can flat out mark, but they are difficult dogs and need a strong trainer and handler to control them. There are vocal issues, too. 

As many have said, beware of what you wish for. Train with a fire breather or two. You may change your mind about wanting one. Not for the amateur. Not for most pros. 

Helen


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

helencalif said:


> The bird craziness (or just plain fire breathing craziness) can jump several generations from Cosmo. His son *Carbon did not have the crazies*; Carbon's son Chopper did not have it. Cosmo's fire breathing does surface in Chopper's get (no matter the bitch to whom Chopper was bred; it just crops up.) Our experience training with several *Chopper pups is that they can flat out mark*, but they are difficult dogs and need a strong trainer and handler to control them. There are vocal issues, too.
> 
> As many have said, beware of what you wish for. Train with a fire breather or two. You may change your mind about wanting one. Not for the amateur. Not for most pros.
> 
> Helen



the more I read and hear about Carbon Copy of Horn Creek, the more I think he is the one you really would like to see in a pedigree..thanks for the insight


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

helencalif said:


> Our experience training with several Chopper pups is that they can flat out mark, but they are difficult dogs and need a strong trainer and handler to control them.
> 
> Helen


x2 with Chopper offspring, Man can they mark, but dang are they hard to control, always seems like explosives waiting to go off, :shock:and then you take them out of the box. :shock::shock::shock:.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> the more I read and hear about Carbon Copy of Horn Creek, the more I think he is the one you really would like to see in a pedigree..thanks for the insight


You are right. I am a Carbon fan. He had the talent, but was not a difficult dog. He passed on his talent. We have a Carbon daughter and her daughter who is a blend of Carbon and Patton. A similar Carbon and Patton blend produced Guide. We probably should be seeking out a Patton son, but a Fargo-Telli son is looking pretty darn good right now.
Helen


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

helencalif said:


> You are right. I am a Carbon fan. He had the talent, but was not a difficult dog. He passed on his talent. We have a Carbon daughter and her daughter who is a blend of Carbon and Patton. A similar Carbon and Patton blend produced Guide. We probably should be seeking out a Patton son, but a *Fargo-Telli son *is looking pretty darn good right now.
> Helen


well their half sisters are quite a fine pair (Rosa, Nora)..but my goodness are they fun to watch


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## Gwen Jones (Jun 19, 2004)

I have a CosmoX Lean Mac son and handful does not even come close to describing the issues that come up. He is as sweet as pie and gentle as Hoss Cartwright but when the birds go off he sometimes just comes unglued!! This issue has plaqued him from day one. While we made the derby list and are QAA, our All Age career is on the slow track as we try to calm him down enough to have him pay attention. He is a wonderful marker, kicks up dust when he leaves for a blind and has a water entry that will make you take notice. But - what is all of that worth if they are so high that they have a problem working with you as a team member. I love this dog with my whole heart and have the hope that he will mature with a little more patience. However -- while we wait for him to get more mature, I have a new puppy that is out of an excellent breeding NOT known for fire breathing but rather for marking ability and smarts!! This little boy is a joy to be around and is flying through the Hillman program.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

my nike pup is 6 months old, I really like him.
i havent had much training time in him, but he learns as if he already knew it.
not a fire breathing dragon, has good speed, steady on a bumper in the yard.
and getting better every day.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Dad has a QAA male out of Nandools Elwood Blues and a Barracuda Blue Bitch that fits the definition of "fire-breather" to a T...he has been interesting to say the least. My newest addition to the family boasts Its All Over Now Baby Blue and High Tech CEO as grandsires...one on the sire side and one on the dams side. He can roll out as well but seems to be a little more manageable than Dads dog...still, the water entries are spectacular and gut wrenching at the same time...I have a couple buddies with dogs out of Carolinas Smoke on The Water that have smoke coming out of their nose as well...


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

Thats interesting, must be carolina smoke coming out in my female, wondered where she got it from.
the fire only burns when lit with a bird..................good thing


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Some call fire breathing while others call 'em undisciplined. Depends on your reference point. HPW


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Gwen Jones said:


> I have a CosmoX Lean Mac son and handful does not even come close to describing the issues that come up. He is as sweet as pie and gentle as Hoss Cartwright but when the birds go off he sometimes just comes unglued!! This issue has plaqued him from day one. While we made the derby list and are QAA, our All Age career is on the slow track as we try to calm him down enough to have him pay attention. He is a wonderful marker, kicks up dust when he leaves for a blind and has a water entry that will make you take notice. But - what is all of that worth if they are so high that they have a problem working with you as a team member. I love this dog with my whole heart and have the hope that he will mature with a little more patience. However -- while we wait for him to get more mature, I have a new puppy that is out of an excellent breeding NOT known for fire breathing but rather for marking ability and smarts!! This little boy is a joy to be around and is flying through the Hillman program.


Something seems familiar with this post hahhhahhahha


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## fowler25 (May 25, 2011)

As bad as I know this sounds. I think I want to try a cosmo pup. The one I have now is extremely high but as long as I keep my started high and maintain it no matter what he has turned out well. And as extremely high as he is when it come down to needing control on a difficult blind or something he plays as a team well. He is normally very steady unless we are hunting in the timber and he is normally good there to but occasionally it's more than he can handle cause we normally let them hit the water and jump the and shoot them leaving the hole. So last Season on opening weekend just at shooting light we got about 200 mallards on the water just feet away. As they were still filtering down threw the trees we hear this loud splash and all the birds flushed. We were all looking around trying to figure out what happened after just a few seconds I here more splashing so I look to find my dog climbing back up on the dog stand and a live hen mallard flopping in his mouth. So then I hear some one say well 1 out of bout 200 birds guess we didn't do to bad that time. And all I could do was laugh. As far as I can remember that the last time he has actually broken. He sometimes is a little whinny watching big groups of birds work but a little quit que seems to work


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

bjoiner said:


> Hard charging puppies I have seen have come from a lot of different dogs. Some of which are:
> * Cosmo
> * Chopper
> * Patton
> * *Lean Mac*


You are right on the money with that one! I have 2 bitches that are Lean Mac Granddaughters (both alpha bitches to boot) and the word fire breather describes them perfectly! Steadiness issues with both, but I definitely learned from the first to control the 2nd better but am still learning with her. The heeling stick and even the e-collar don't phase this dog- she just wants the bird! My training partners can all back me up on this- the only solution seems to be DENIAL! However, when she complies and I can get her under control (which seems to be happening more lately..knock on wood!) , she is a BLAST to run!! That being said, there are definitely days when I wish she was more of the "B" dog than the "A" dog. (Reference from Farmer/Aycock Problems and Solutions DVD). Wouldn't trade her for anything though, nor the older one- this dog would not honor even if you nailed her tail to the ground!!! (Note: this is a facetious statement). Like Bon and others have said, if you go this route try to hold on for the ride. It's a sweet one at times!


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Little Man was for sure a hard charger. His pups are hard chargers. I have one from him that's a hard charger. (Jefe).

Hard chargers must also have enough brains to slow down and think, which is why I like Jefe. I'm like a football coach, in that I want maximum effort out of my dogs every hour of every day they are training. I get that with my hard chargers. When I don't get that, those dogs are sent to homes that want pets or pets that can hunt.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Drive for show, putt for dough.


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

The "fire breathers" are: hard to train, difficult to control and make you feel like a dungeon master every time you go to the field. That being the case, why do so many trialers want one? Please exclude, "they're fun to watch". 
Many years ago I attempted to sell a "fire breather" for a client. This dog had won the Canadian National derby championship after breaking in the last 7 trials that he had run. After demonstrating the dog to a prospective buyer, his comment was. "hell, he's worth the price just to show him to your buddies". I guess pride in owning something unique is worth the heartache involved.
GG


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I have a Cosmo grandaughter that is a hard charging dog in the field ,but off the line she is clingy and tries so hard to please that sometimes its too much (pestering for attention). Whether a field or in the house she tries her hardest to please. I feel very lucky as she is the first dog I've played any of the games with and with the combination of a good dog and good mentor she has been able to compete in any venue I/we choose to run (HT-UKC HT OR FT) and the best gundog I've ever hunted with. 

I see alot of replies saying that lean mac throws this or that ,but I wonder if that is because he has sired sooo many offspring that you are bound to have great ,good and some not so good where he and others are concerned .I'm not questioning his offspring or others ,just questioning the percentage since the top sires have so many off spring.

It seems that if only 25% of the dogs that are from a certain sire are high drive then that leaves 75% that are something else. Again not looking to detour the thread but reading the replies it makes me think of the numbers involved.

If a said stud only sires one litter and all/most are high drive then it seems safe to say he throws high drive dogs,but when there are pottetialy thousands of pups from a said sire it seems that the hundreds of females involved will also dictate the pups attitude/temperament. 

If you shoot at enough ducks your bound to hit one or 2.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have had hard chargers and I have had Steady Eddies. I assume I will have both in the future. Assuming equal talent, you play with the hand you are dealt.

However, I prefer the Steady Eddie who is always playing at the end to the Crash and Burn dog who either wins going away or blows up
- and usually the latter.

I prefer ribbons to notoriety


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## Labs a mundo (Mar 20, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Drive for show, putt for dough.


For sure there's a balance.
Finding it is when the adrenalin kicks in.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Brokengunz said:


> Thats interesting, must be carolina smoke coming out in my female, wondered where she got it from.
> the fire only burns when lit with a bird..................good thing


I have a Little Man son out of a Tiger McBunn and Gator Points Sweet Potato Pie bitch. He is the same way, the best dog I have in the house, great off switch. He just knows the difference between work time and off time. Put the crates in the back of the truck though and it's game on! While he loves his birds, he gets just as excited if we're using bumpers. The dog just lives to retrieve. Marking machine, runs blinds just as hard. To say he was a handful as a pup would be an understatement. Luckily I was smart enough to have a pro do his basics (since he was the first pup I bought specifically to play the games with) and he got him under control enough, and me trained enough that I could handle him at the line. He is a pretty easy dog to handle but you definitely have to stay on your toes with him. So much fun to run and I'd take another like him in a heartbeat.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I dealt with helping train one for three months last summer. Man, was he fun to watch run. Deadly marker, and anything in his line to the bird would be flattened. He only has one speed, and that's 200mph with his hair on fire. Problem was, he was always too amped up to think. He had a hard time with control (although we did gain a lot in those three months). Would I want to own one? Nope (with apologies to the owner of the above dog ). I like a more interactive, focused dog....the fire-breathers often have their own agenda and the handler becomes strictly an accessory. I prefer more teamwork.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Sharon Potter said:


> I dealt with helping train one for three months last summer. Man, was he fun to watch run. Deadly marker, and anything in his line to the bird would be flattened. He only has one speed, and that's 200mph with his hair on fire. Problem was, he was always too amped up to think. He had a hard time with control (although we did gain a lot in those three months). Would I want to own one? Nope (with apologies to the owner of the above dog ). I like a more interactive, focused dog....the fire-breathers often have their own agenda and the handler becomes strictly an accessory. I prefer more teamwork.


That's why I have Chief! This whole "team" idea has a lot going for it. But when I need a spirit lifter or just craving an adrenalin rush, there ain't nuttin' like my Indy! I have learned more from that dog than should be possible in 5 years, and he just keeps teaching me. So to the op, if you think thats what you need, go for a Chopper/Cosmo/Maxx etc. But understand, that even the ones that are known for producing dragons, also have many pups that are calmer and some just don't seem to inherit all the parts you want. Good luck, hold on, have fun!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> I dealt with helping train one for three months last summer. Man, was he fun to watch run. Deadly marker, and anything in his line to the bird would be flattened. He only has one speed, and that's 200mph with his hair on fire. Problem was, he was always too amped up to think. He had a hard time with control (although we did gain a lot in those three months). Would I want to own one? Nope (with apologies to the owner of the above dog ). * I like a more interactive, focused dog....the fire-breathers often have their own agenda and the handler becomes strictly an accessory. I prefer more teamwork*.


This is a great point. My boy was very much as you describe as far as having his own agenda. I compare it to a naturally gifted sports star who thinks he can get by on talent alone (practice?! We're talking about practice?!). "You just stand there and wait for me to bring the ducks back dad, I got this!" Thankfully, between 2 and 3 years old something changed (maturity probably) and he became much more of a team player.


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

Always interested in these type discussions. My experience (which is miniscule to most on this board) has left me wondering how much nature/nurture comes into play? My first lab was your classic high drive /non sensitive type. I wouldn't say he was an absolute firebreather, but he ate my lunch pretty quick, becoming test wise, horrible line manners, and overall not enjoyable to run in events.

Second dog was the high drive/sensitive type. Determined to keep high standards due to first dog, probably lead to a host of issues the other way.

Starting a new pup, and using Hillmann's puppy DVD, and have watched his stand alone Traffic Cop DVD as well. This pup is pretty laid back and level headed, but his retrieve is really starting to develop. Hope he continues towards the ideal balance.

Anyone have experience with putting what you would expect to be a "firebreather" through Hillmann's program? Do you think this different method would completely change how those high rolling pups develop? Seems like if these high rolling pups were brought up expecting the fireworks from 8 weeks on you can't really expect them to not be maniacs as adults?

I don't at all expect this pup is a firebreather, just interested in anyone's experience/thoughts on training one with a different approach. Say an alpha male out of a line bred Cosmo litter??? (again....not my pup)


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> x2 with Chopper offspring, Man can they mark, but dang are they hard to control, always seems like explosives waiting to go off, :shock:and then you take them out of the box. :shock::shock::shock:.


I will have to respectfully disgree with this statement. FC Ruckus was a team player as a derby dog. Would let me "tweak" his head of I needed to. Still does. That's why he was a young FC besides marking ability. I think Jim Harvey would disagree with your statement also - Juice's owner. I would take a whole strong of Ruckus'. Since that is not a possiblity, I am taking on a son..... or two..... or three....


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

The original poster wants high desire, wants speed, big water enteries, kicking back gravel when they leave the line, come charging back with bird in mouth and back in the last few feet to set themselves up for the next retrieve. *NOT* ONE OF THOSE OBSERVABLE DISPLAYS will *WIN* YOU A TRIAL.

On the other hand when your training partners are focusing on the the concepts in the field you are focusing on the the line manners, the noise, steadiness, honouring for other dogs at line and lastly keeping your dog in the boat or blind as you drop a duck in front of them with still more coming in. Hopefully you will have patience for all that pent up desire. May I suggest you take up agility or flyball with your hyper, ready to explode, gone into another world retriever. Hunting and hunt tests are not designed for such high rollers.

Beware that Cosmo has the capacity to express those behaviors if you are an experienced trainer to match his desire when it manifests itself. 

Cosmo is also a carrier of EIC, as is Lean Mac and Patton. All very talented animals that have made their mark on this game. That high octane drive did come with a price for them fotunately matched by a requesit amount of fortitude from their trainers to have them meet their standards of obedience and control.

Having such dogs in the sport is not a bad thing as they bring to the table what some breeders see as compliment their more laid back dogs. Some breeders will seek to achieve this extra punch by adding some spark to their breeding program. It is often the case that these dogs in good balance have been made less stylish because of the training rather than their gernetic make up.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

We do agility. Dogs like that cannot succeed at agility. Don't know about flyball.



Ironwood said:


> . May I suggest you take up agility or flyball with your hyper, ready to explode, gone into another world retriever. Hunting and hunt tests are not designed for such high rollers.
> 
> .


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

You deal with the hand you are dealt. I would not willingly select a dog that I knew would be a "hard charger." But, if I had one with talent, I would work to find a way to manage it.

I have a wild child that shows promise. I was talking to my pro about running her in a derby in late October. Cherylon said "I think it might be best if Foxy didn't find about field trials until she turns three." She was only half joking. 

No derbies for Foxy this year - and maybe no derbies for her at all.


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> We do agility. Dogs like that cannot succeed at agility. Don't know about flyball.


Have to disagree with you there. It might not be easy, but it certainly is very possible to run agility successfully with one of the wild maniac, hyper, ready to explode retrievers. I am running one, yes he is a heck of a lot more work than my "steady eddy" ones. I have to constantly be on top of him, and work to keep him from going into overdrive (where he stops thinking). He is definitely not a dog that any novice could survive! He just started trialing this summer, 2 weekends and already has 1 title and well started on several others. Many of his runs are not pretty, but a lot of that is ME learning how to handle such a high octane dog on the course (after 15 yrs of agility running slower reliable type dogs) and when we both get it together there is sure no greater thrill than a clean run with him. My instructor (very experienced multi Worlds competitor) and I are quite sure he will be competing at a National level within 1-2 years. So no, I would not recommend this type of dog to 95% of the people that want to do agility, but most people want an "easy" dog. BTW he is also a flyball competitor, and yes in that venue I would say his insane drive is a virtue, I am quite sure he is the fastest Chessie to ever compete in flyball (for anyone that runs the sport, his PB is 4.1 seconds, and if I get his box turn cleaned up I am quite sure he will be sub 4). That overdrive has also been a great asset in dock diving. And he is a great hunting dog, his overdrive doesn't kick in during a hunt...but I do admit a hunt test environment turns him into a useless raving lunatic, he gets so far into overdrive he can't even think and focus to find a bird 50 yds in front of him


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## Bryan Manning (May 22, 2005)

I recently got a pup out of FC the man in black "cash" and some hunt test lines. It was not an expensive litter for an FC breeding so honestly didn't have extremely high expectations and that was okay because he was really just going to take the place of my old girl. No thought of running trials with him maybe a few hunt test if time permitted. Well I got more than I bargained for he is a demon in the field. Very obedient in the yard and going to the line but even when he see's a gun he will try to take off some times. A normal day is he gets out first see the mark go back on the truck. This may happen 2 or 3 times before he even sits long enough to pick up a mark. So as stated before be careful what you wish for a dog like this will work your nerves. He is as talented a dog as I have ever had he can just flat out mark when he sits and pays attention. He's getting better but it is a struggle every day. So like Ted's he will probably never see a derby!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, what was it about the best laid plans of men?

Rocky Mountain may have a hard time getting 10 dogs for the derby. If so, I will need to enter Foxy.

So, if you want to run a small derby and spare me the brain damage of bringing my wild indian to the line, please enter the derby at Rocky Mountain. We close tomorrow.

Ted


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Thats funny !


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

Ted , I will see you at Rocky Mountain with the REAL WILD CHILD! I had to twist Kenny and Marcy's arm.You no the old saying when the boss is out of town I.E the Canadian Nationals the kids will play!! 
Dave Hare


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Dave

Don't forget we close tomorrow

Ted


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

Ted , I'm In let the fun begin see you Sat.
Dave Hare


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DaveHare said:


> Ted , I'm In let the fun begin see you Sat.
> Dave Hare


Now there is the afforementioned Cosmo pup ( Cosmo x Sister Lucy Worth the Wait)...a real life hard charger pants on fire marking machine...its gonna be a fun ride for you this fall, David...between Otto and watching your Broncos play their should be plenty of excitement in your life


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

I had forgotten about the Lucy x Cosmo breeding. I know Lucy has plenty of go. I was running my Chopper bitch, a litter mate to Downtown Dusty Brown and Lucy in the qual at the same time. I called them the wild women. I would be so exhausted at the end of a Friday going to the line with those 3 girls. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. My nickname for her.


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## turk870 (Mar 13, 2010)

we have two of the type dogs you are looking at,my wifes dog(fordxdrake female)she trained and as new as we are to this game she got her through seasond.now is were the down fall of this type of dog takes hold.alot of issues that were seen as minor have made her unable to proceed..noise at the line,steadyness issues,honor is horable.now we are trying to correct these issues...the other dog we have is the fastest dog i have seen and one of the best markers as well i sent her to a very compatent pro and she dosent have the issues the other dog has..if this is the type of dog you want be sure as stated in earlier post that you can control it.second dog is magicxjamie female,speed came from her mother,she held the speed record in srs i was told.


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

*buyer be very aware*



GG said:


> As stated above; be careful what you wish for. These types of dog come with unique problelms that takes experience to handle. Reread Bon's post.
> Good luck
> GG


just what he said, 
spend some time with pups out of your selected breeding, like 6-18 month old ones, see the consequences of what not to let get out of hand. true hard chargers are a life long commitment in the area of control.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I have a 4 yr old Grand daughter of Little Man that is my "wow dog" she is about as crazy as they get going after a bumpe/bird. Don't throw a fun bumper in the yard if you have a nice yard,she comes back with grass in her mouth and takes a divot out of the yard. Water entry that makes me cringe most times. She is a PIA if just loose around the yard jumping up around your head wanting you to do something with her,knocking stuff over etc etc. However.. she has great line manners and is very steady when hunting out of a boat or blind. She does get a little amped up at tests but is still steady. She had a litter last yr that had 11 pups and all but one are house dogs living with families with small children and they all say her pups are the calmest easy going labs they have seen but have a retrieving desire and water attitude second to none. I didn't even keep one myself but after getting a few of them back for training I just repeated the breeding.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I have one of those dogs.
In a nutshell, the problem comes from not knowing what a pup will turn into.
Not every dog from these breeding turns into a "Wild Indian."

I considered getting rid of my BLm because he had no drive.
Then, as HPW can atest, we shot a live flyer in front of him.
He was about 5 months old an an instant transformation occurred.
Who knew.
I tried all the methods I had use before in training other dogs I have had that did not have the prey drive and anxiety this guy does.
So, to some degree, I am responsible for the behavior.

Lot's of people will tell you "quick fixes."
If a quick fix works, you don't have a fire breatther-high roller.
It is a lifestyle change.
Everything you do, every day has to have a goal and a consequence.
These dogs are generally very smart.
They do NOT learn anything in the back of a truck.
If they violate the standard in training, pick up the bird, reload and run again until he/she does it right.
Then praise the hell out of them and put them away on a positive.

It has been a struggle, but we have made great progress.
He is relatively steady at the line now and we will be running MH, QAA and HRCH next season.
(I'm kind of done this year, it's time to HUNT!)
WE are a team now, but it is an every day effort to get there.
I seldom if ever work on marks, he will NOT come back without a bird.
He handles well and takes a great line.
But you best have the whistle at the ready.
Because on these dogs, if you have to think/blink they are gone!!!!

BTW--A few people here have seen him run......he is the real deal.
I often wonder what could have been with a better trainor...................but he, just like me, is an adrenaline freak and I* LOVE *him just as he is.
You never have to tell a dog like that to "GO" twice!!!!

When he is on, it is a beautiful thing.
And vice versa.

So, as has been stated here, saddle up and enjoy the ride!!!!

Best of luck to you, you will never be bored!!!!


Oh, what dogs are in his pedigree that would contribute to this type of personality???
You name them, they are in there.


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

Road kill, how long has it taken you and the dog to get to this point?


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## Bryan Manning (May 22, 2005)

road kill said:


> Everything you do, every day has to have a goal and a consequence.
> These dogs are generally very smart.
> They do NOT learn anything in the back of a truck.
> If they violate the standard in training, pick up the bird, reload and run again until he/she does it right.
> Then praise the hell out of them and put them away on a positive.


I have to assume this was in reference to my post about my dog. So to that I say every dog is different and respond to different things. What may work for you doesn't work for me. My dog responds very well to this it is the worst correction he can get. He understands other corrections he gets he just doesn't care the only thing on his mind is getting the bird/bumper what ever it doesn't matter. It's getting better and will get better he's young. But I think that is the challenge with type of dog is staying on top of it and some times having to figure out different ways of fixing problems because its a life long battle with this style of dog.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

tuffpup said:


> I have to assume this was in reference to my post about my dog. So to that I say every dog is different and respond to different things. What may work for you doesn't work for me. My dog responds very well to this it is the worst correction he can get. He understands other corrections he gets he just doesn't care the only thing on his mind is getting the bird/bumper what ever it doesn't matter. It's getting better and will get better he's young. But I think that is the challenge with type of dog is staying on top of it and some times having to figure out different ways of fixing problems because its a life long battle with this style of dog.


My comments were not directed towards you.

That was about what I have to do with my dog.


My apologies if that offended, not my intention at all........


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Illini Coot Killr said:


> Road kill, how long has it taken you and the dog to get to this point?


Well, he is almost 4 now, I imagine another 8 years or so, he may slow down............


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## Bryan Manning (May 22, 2005)

No offense taken. but the OP needs to know that you have to be willing to change things up if you have to. I have never done this with any other dog but then again I have NEVER had one like him. Mine is only 7 months so he has a lot to learn he's just plain crazy!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Road kill, I had almost the same experience right down to the shot flyer at about 4.5 months, and I have been hanging on for the ride ever since.

Mine WANTS THE BIRD, so the worst thing I can do to him is turn around and take him back to the holding blind or back to the truck. I agree he doesn't learn anything on the truck; the learning takes place when he figures out we are going back to the truck and not GETTING THE BIRD (caps are undoubtedly how my dog would say it).

I worked on some diversion birds this AM, and it is a struggle to get him to no off a mark. But, at least this session he did sit on the whistle and come back on the "no, here", which is more than I can say for a session we had a couple weeks ago.

Another thing I have done for my bird-crazy dog, including this morning, is stake him out at the flyer station. I was throwing pigeons right in front of him, and he was having to watch other dogs get that bird and run by him for two other marks. Hopefully in 8 - 10 years he will figure out it is OK if he doesn't get THAT bird, because we have more to throw for him.


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## Bryan Manning (May 22, 2005)

 I'm out smarter people here than me!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

fowler25 said:


> If you were wanting to get a pup that would hopefully turn out to be a really high drivin hard charging dog or what I have seen referred to on here as a balls to the wall dog but also a good marker what are some names you would look for in the pedigree? Or what sire and dam would you look for to be bred? I understand clearances and health are a top priority but providing all that is good who would u want a pup from if you were looking for on with these traits.


watch what you wish for the fire breather may not be the next NFC... sometimes drive outstrips tractability and then you're SCREWED! balance is important.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Our place is the home of Ford dogs, Chopper dogs, Cosmo dogs, Carbon dogs and Esprit's Power Play dogs. Not a slug in the bunch, first be careful what you ask for and make sure that you are up to the task as a trainer and owner as some of these type dogs are very busy and on all the time. Every day is gong to work when you own these type dogs whether you feel like it or not. And they don't work all day so how will you spend the down time with a dog like this? Love mine and they work out great but I have moved a few from time to time that didn't fit into the lifestyle here, not that they weren't good or great dogs, but I live with my dogs and if one isn't going to work out for that then it is better to move them to a more fitting environment.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

JoeOverby said:


> Dad has a QAA male out of Nandools Elwood Blues and a Barracuda Blue Bitch that fits the definition of "fire-breather" to a T...he has been interesting to say the least. My newest addition to the family boasts Its All Over Now Baby Blue and High Tech CEO as grandsires...one on the sire side and one on the dams side. He can roll out as well but seems to be a little more manageable than Dads dog...still, the water entries are spectacular and gut wrenching at the same time...I have a couple buddies with dogs out of Carolinas Smoke on The Water that have smoke coming out of their nose as well...


WOW! My 4 year old chocolate female is a daughter to Barracuda Blue and on the dam's side she has Carolina's Smoke on the Water as a grandfather. I guess this explains a lot.

Terri


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Teach the crazy ones properly from the start or they keep trying to change you to see things their way. As roadkill said it is a change of life...Randy


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## fowler25 (May 25, 2011)

David McLendon said:


> Our place is the home of Ford dogs, Chopper dogs, Cosmo dogs, Carbon dogs and Esprit's Power Play dogs. Not a slug in the bunch, first be careful what you ask for and make sure that you are up to the task as a trainer and owner as some of these type dogs are very busy and on all the time. Every day is gong to work when you own these type dogs whether you feel like it or not. And they don't work all day so how will you spend the down time with a dog like this? Love mine and they work out great but I have moved a few from time to time that didn't fit into the lifestyle here, not that they weren't good or great dogs, but I live with my dogs and if one isn't going to work out for that then it is better to move them to a more fitting environment.


David I tried to pm you but it said your pm box was full. Is there a way you could pm me your email or contact info. Thanks


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

pm box cleared out now.


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