# OFA xrays with or without sedation?



## Perch_44 (May 15, 2006)

here is my predicament, my vet that i have always gone to says he does OFA xrays, but they put the dog under to do so. now, i was recommended to a different vet for my OFA from a friend, and this vet does it without sedation, but he is twice as expensive... you would think a vet using sedation would cost more...


the money isn't the biggest issue, but, do i really put my dog at risk having him put under for OFA's? cause if i don't, i might as well just go to my local vet and spend the money there.


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## Certainty (Apr 17, 2008)

I have never had a problem with my dogs being sedated for OFA. My vet uses the least amount of medication, just enough to keep the dog from moving. They come out of it very quickly. You might want to discuss the type of sedation he uses with your vet and maybe you will feel better about it.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Depends for me-
I was fairly confident in Britain's hips, so no sedation.
I was not so confident with Carbon's so they sedated to get the best picture. Now, Carbon did not want to wake up, and since my vet uses minimal sedation she started reversing it pretty quick as she saw that he was going a little too deep. So, I have learned he is not a dog to sedate for anything, which is nice to know for future issues.

Poppins-I will not feed her when I do hers, but will ask for no sedation. If she is too much of a handful, they will have the option.

I always like to look at the xrays, and have done so for years. I am not a vet, but can read xrays and have been taught by several vets what to look for. Having said that, never know what OFA will say!
Money is always an issue, but my vet is so reasonable, and takes really good xrays.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I have read on several threads that sedation can relax the muscles and give you a worse reading.


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## Perch_44 (May 15, 2006)

well, my vet said he would charge me $60 plus the ofa fee, but he will not do OFA without sedation because he feels he has to do that to get the best pictures taken, as he said "to get their legs in the needed positions, without any issues or fighting from the dog". 

now, the other vet that was recommended to me(and i value his opinion on it very much, and i'm sure its a great vet for OFA) but they want $190 plus the OFA fee...


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I would love to have either of your vets. Around here it costs $400+ or $500 for hips and elbows.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

sheriff said:


> I have read on several threads that sedation can relax the muscles and give you a worse reading.


Sedation does indeed relax the dog. The purpose of this is to give you a truer picture of of the hip structure. If indeed a worse reading, it is a truer reading. Do you take the films just to get a good OFA rating or to find out whether the dog should be bred?

Eric


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## Mike Trible (Oct 23, 2007)

I wanted to have my young golden's preliminary x-rays done, and after nearly losing my other golden during a preanesthetic for a neuter, I was scared to have her sedated. I also did not want her to be so scared and tense that the vet couldn't get a good x-ray without the sedation. I decided some time and effort on my part might solve the problem and prevent a sedative, so I clicker trained her to lie on her back and "release" her back legs on command. The clicker was very helpful in immediately identifying to her what she did right, though it could certainly be done with a verbal "good" and reward. It worked very well, and with my husband's help we practiced first on the floor, then on a bench and the freezer to be more like the vet's office. It was cool to see the vet's face when we rolled her over and I told her to "stretch". Her legs were like jelly, just as if she'd been sedated. This approach may not work for all dogs, but it's at least another option.

Carla Trible
UCD UH HRCH GRCH Millcreek's Pay It Forward HRC 500 points
SHR Live Oaks Remember the Journey


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:


> Sedation does indeed relax the dog. The purpose of this is to give you a truer picture of of the hip structure. If indeed a worse reading, it is a truer reading. Do you take the films just to get a good OFA rating or to find out whether the dog should be bred?
> 
> Eric



Agree. I personally wish OFA would code it in their rating if the dog was under sedation or not.

I've also made note on my one dog that was slow to come out of the anesthesia w/ the reversible since I do breed and you never know if you may end up needing a c-section done. I think it's very good info to have, and OFAs are an ideal time to "test" the dog when they are young and in good health. Better than doing so in a time of emergency!


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Perch,

Go to Stillwater ask for Dr. Rice or Dr. Winter.

Pay whatever they charge and save yourself the headaches of dealing with those less qualified. They DO NOT sedate and you are in and out in 30 minutes, and if they give you an opinion on the films it's 99.9% correct.

John


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## M Remington (Feb 16, 2006)

I find I have the best results when I listen to the advice of the experts. If I'm not mistaken, the OFA recommends that the dog be sedated.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I didn't read all of this but from my experience I can say,,, go with the vet that's got the best track record.

The vet that I used in PA sedated. The vet I use here does not....

They both have an excellent reputation of getting an x-ray rating of good or better with OFA.

Angie


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Agree. I personally wish OFA would code it in their rating if the dog was under sedation or not.


And why would this be important, muscle tone could only be a factor if the dog was subjected to surgical general anesthesia.

There has never been a controlled study comparing the results of hip x-rays in sedated versus unsedated dogs. 

After doing thousands of hip x-rays in working and sporting breed dogs for almost 40 year I do not believe that "sedation" alters the conformation of the hip joint.


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

My dog Tanner was sedated and His results came back Excellent. I dont have a problem with the sedation.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Angie B said:


> I didn't read all of this but from my experience I can say,,, go with the vet that's got the best track record.
> 
> The vet that I used in PA sedated. The vet I use here does not....
> 
> ...


My vet didn't really give me the option especially after watching Billy drag one of the assistants, who weighs about 90lbs, around the waiting room and knock over the big display of Science Diet backside over tea kettle. Charged me an extra 50 bucks just for causing him grief. 

Mac


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Perch,
> 
> Go to Stillwater ask for Dr. Rice or Dr. Winter.
> 
> ...


What he said!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

EdA said:


> And why would this be important, muscle tone could only be a factor if the dog was subjected to surgical general anesthesia.
> 
> There has never been a controlled study comparing the results of hip x-rays in sedated versus unsedated dogs.
> 
> After doing thousands of hip x-rays in working and sporting breed dogs for almost 40 year I do not believe that "sedation" alters the conformation of the hip joint.


Two things really, no 3... maybe 4 if you want to include my first statement. 
First, a relaxed dog is not tensing up (tensing = tightening and possibly changing the picture??).
Second & 3rd, my dog isn't stressed out because someone is torquing on them.. for good reason (I want a good pic). I'm taking one shot, at 2 yo, for the best possible view. It may mean the difference between breeding and not. Why not sedate? If I am breeding the bitch down the road, isn't it good to know how she may react to anesthesia in general? My vet uses domitor if I remember correctly, along w/ a low dose narcotic for any pain incurred in the positioning process. We've been in and out in 60 min, no prob. Never had to retake a film either. The good ones were very pretty, the one bad one wasn't. That's what my aim is... truth. Why mess w/ success?


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## Greg E (Jan 2, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> Two things really, no 3... maybe 4 if you want to include my first statement.
> First, a relaxed dog is not tensing up (tensing = tightening and possibly changing the picture??).
> Second & 3rd, my dog isn't stressed out because someone is torquing on them.. for good reason (I want a good pic). I'm taking one shot, at 2 yo, for the best possible view. It may mean the difference between breeding and not. Why not sedate? If I am breeding the bitch down the road, isn't it good to know how she may react to anesthesia in general? My vet uses domitor if I remember correctly, along w/ a low dose narcotic for any pain incurred in the positioning process. We've been in and out in 60 min, no prob. Never had to retake a film either. The good ones were very pretty, the one bad one wasn't. That's what my aim is... truth. Why mess w/ success?


My vet does not sedate. She's been doing it for years. Also breeds some awesome dogs. I think we're all looking for the truth. I just choose to believe her.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

My vet does it so fast I am out in 15 minutes and I have had 2 OFA excellents in 2 rowdy young dogs a couple of times. They do it so quickly that the dogs don't know what hit them so I always wonder what all the to do is about. We go in the room and hold the head and talk to them and the vet knows when they relax. It pays to travel the distance. Everytime I have tried to cut corners and use a local vet it has been a disaster to being told the dogs were dysplastic (later re-xrayed OFA good or excellent) to one being over dosed by anesthesia. I say why go the cheap route when you can get someone who has done a ton of xrays-mine has never been wrong either.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

From The Golden Retriever Foundation Report (sorry not dated, but would be between 2005 & now ... probably around 2006 or early 2007):

"Very new studies indicate that the sedation method used during the radiograph may influence the dx of hip dysplasia using the traditional hip extended view (OFA view). The research shows that dogs x-rayed under acepromazine sedation or no sedation are diagnosed with hip dysplasia less frewquently than dogs x-rayed under other kinds of sedation or anesthesia. The Purina research [reference to the Purina research which indicated that leaner dogs live longer and have less hip dysplasia] and anesthesia studies show that some things we do to reduce the incidence and dx of hip dysplasia may actually be masking the presence of disease genes in some dogs. Therefore, hip dysplasia may appear to have been reduced in a breeding program, yet disease genes may still be present. Puppies produced from those dogs still carry these genes, and if raised differently or x-rayed differently than their parents, they may be diagnosed as dysplastic. Breeders need to be aware that methods of selecting breeding stock can potentially be affected by factors that are not inherited, and this may not result in improvements that pass on to subsequent generations."

If money is no object , there is a newer anesthesia, sevoflurane, developed for human pediatric use, that is now available for veterinary purposes. It is very quick acting and quick reversing. (I had it used for a c-section). It costs about twice as much as the more typical isoflurane. 

I use PennHIP and OFA when doing hips on my dogs. That along with elbow films costs me about $500. If I were really a purist, I would do more than one view of the elbows, but at $50/per piece of film two more views would add $200 to the total bill. 

Before you're through, you easily spend close to $1000 on health screenings (with PRA testing & recurrent eye checks and heart exams). And then, sometimes, they don't pass one or more of those screenings. Anybody for Vegas?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Angie B said:


> go with the vet that's got the best track record.


This is the key. It's not the sedation or lack thereof. It doesn't mean your local vet may or may not be competent. It just means that they don't do as many.


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## mudflapimmc (Feb 28, 2008)

I just had my dog done last week and they used sedation. My vet said the xrays looked pretty good but will wait and see what OFA says. Can anyone tell me how long it takes to get the results?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

mudflapimmc said:


> I just had my dog done last week and they used sedation. My vet said the xrays looked pretty good but will wait and see what OFA says. Can anyone tell me how long it takes to get the results?


Typically 2-3 weeks.... you can call them to see what there time frame is, considering it's summer!


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## mudflapimmc (Feb 28, 2008)

JusticeDog said:


> Typically 2-3 weeks.... you can call them to see what there time frame is, considering it's summer!


Thanks alot.


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## TAK (Jan 13, 2006)

Stillwater vet. My results were 4 weeks to the day.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

My vet Cal Cadmus does OFA xrays both for my working retrievers and for my working GSDs who work in protection and are therefore not keen on being flipped on their backs and negotiated around.

I'm in and out of the office in 30 minutes. Cal displays the xrays on his (very large) computer screen for the client to view and he uses his mouse pointer to explain things.

After we have finished discussing every thing, and have double checked the registration no. etc. ID are all correct, he clicks the mouse and the xrays are sent off to OFA!

Then an assistant comes in with a CD in hand and gives it to the client - it has a copy of the xray on it along with the software to read it.

I go home and review the xray on my (much smaller) computer screen and save the xray file in my computer.

All that for less than $150!!!

Of COURSE no sedation - it is so routine, so many dogs later, I almost forgot to mention it.


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

How many of you have the dogs heart Xrayed also? My dog is having Hips, Elbow and Heart done tomorrow.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

For those of you who've been doing this longer than the rest of us, do you feel that digital xrays are preferable and do you only use vets that offer digital?

OFA ratings and charts on pairings based on OFA ratings--are the results skewed because dogs that are xrayed and owners told dysplastic are not sent in to the OFA to be recorded?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> For those of you who've been doing this longer than the rest of us, do you feel that digital xrays are preferable and do you only use vets that offer digital?


I would take expertise over equipment.



HiRollerlabs said:


> OFA ratings and charts on pairings based on OFA ratings--are the results skewed because dogs that are xrayed and owners told dysplastic are not sent in to the OFA to be recorded?


I'm sure they are to a certain extent because it isn't mandatory to send x-rays in. OFA works for me but I use a very experienced vet who used to read for OFA. I think most of the people that are anti-OFA started with a bad x-ray or malpositioning. Yes, it would be nice if all bad xrays could be included in the total to get better statistics but realistically I am not spending the money in a time where more and more clearances are needed on each dog.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

> I would take expertise over equipment.


What a great answer!!!!
I agree-my vet still has the old fashioned drip dry xray stuff.
But If John Sherman likes them too, can't be half bad!!!

You know, the numbers will never be right, unless it was like Optigen who will not publish names but keep statistics. And unless breeders get all people to xray their dogs. BUT, I won't do that unless there is an issue, as a mildly displasic dog may never show symptoms, and if an owner thinks there is something wrong they might obsess or make it worse. I get really frustrated with surgery happy vets, and often the problem does go away if left alone.
In a perfect world, all my puppies would be xrayed, and the results would go into a nameless statistic so no one would panic, but I would have the information.

PS OFA is now sending confirmation emails to tell you they got your stuff-how cool is that.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

HiRollerlabs said:


> OFA ratings and charts on pairings based on OFA ratings--are the results skewed because dogs that are xrayed and owners told dysplastic are not sent in to the OFA to be recorded?


I think the stats are quite skewed considering the select population of dogs that are actually xrayed. If we have 14% (or whatever the current stat is) of dogs from the upper crust breedings showing dysplasia, what must it be from the byb/pm population? I read at one point it was estimated closer to 40+% HD. 

We don't have digital options locally, but like others, I'll stick w/ success. I've had all goods and excellents at reasonable prices using the old fashioned equip (a retired hospital monster of an xray machine!). The contrast is always well above average and the vet does a great job of positioning.

That is nice about the email confirmation. Do they just email the vet (if vet sends it in) or the owner? My youngest will be due in Oct to go in.. always nerve wracking! I seem to be able to call the rating on hips pretty well, but I always get nervous about elbows as even the vet (who does alot of OFAs)says he doesn't catch it all there!


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Yeah well, Carbon's elbows looked great, hips hmm, we will see! 

My vets were more confident then I am

To answer your question. I sent them in, so when I filled out all the address stuff I put my email address, and I also put a note in asking for the xrays back. That way if he gets hurt we have something to compare them to.
I really was excited to get the email thing-I was like a kid!!!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

D Osborn said:


> Yeah well, Carbon's elbows looked great, hips hmm, we will see!
> 
> My vets were more confident then I am
> 
> ...


Good to know. A GR friend of mine was just mentioning last night that she still hasn't heard anything from OFA on one of hers. I wonder if she filled out the paperwork or not (she can be a little spacey)! She was complaining as she wanted to take a few to the cardiologist and it'd be nice to know on the hips first, but if it were me, I'd be on the phone after 2 wks!

I also pay the extra $5 to have them mailed back, for the same reason. It was really nice a few years ago when my one took a bad landing on her front in agility to have the elbow/shoulder view to compare to. Just a soft tissue injury, thankfully!

ETA: I think GRs ARE more difficult to read on hips! I went w/ above friend once and there seemed to be more subluxation, less depth there than in labs. Not nearly as clear cut.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

> ETA: I think GRs ARE more difficult to read on hips! I went w/ above friend once and there seemed to be more subluxation, less depth there than in labs. Not nearly as clear cut.


Hmm-wonder why?
His one hip was great, his other, opposing his injured muscle, had a little shadow that they may notice. Problem is, we did not know how serious the muscle problem was until he was sedated, he did not want to wake up from the sedation, so I am not redoing. The depth was great, and no abnormal wear. 
But, I was thrilled about the elbows, as we don't have much history in his lines, given Whistler, his dad, is the only one who had his done from his litter. Back then it was not an every day thing.

Another thing in GR, some lines xray better later. My first golden looked like fair at 2, so I waited as I had no plans to breed him, because his breeder said her lines mature late. Sure enough, at 5 they were good, after 4 years of jumping, running and radiation on his jaw.
Go figure.


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