# Lean Mac ??



## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Rhetorical question:: If you could breed to Lean Mac would you??

Why or why not?

Bored tonight and have nothing better to do. That's why I asked ( knowing somebody is going to ask)


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Ask Marvin..


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

With the right female who I think compliments him, absolutely


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

If I had a titled Hilltop's HAYSEED (Bubba) bitch I would breed to Lean Mac in a Georgia second. JMHO.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

It's been done recently. No I wouldn't, because I'm too risk averse for a big financial commitment.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

cakaiser said:


> Ask Marvin..


Thanks!!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

If I had an NAFC or NFC bitch I might because of the uniqueness of a pairing and as long as the lines matched well....from a more practical standpoint we have an AFC female that we considered breeding and someone suggested Lean Mac, but the financial risk vs reward compared to the potential return did not make any sense....the other factor is that there are plenty of Lean Mac sons and grandsons with worthy credentials that would be less risky than breeding to the legend


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Rnd said:


> Rhetorical question:: If you could breed to Lean Mac would you??
> 
> Why or why not?
> 
> Bored tonight and have nothing better to do. That's why I asked ( knowing somebody is going to ask)


I'll ask you a few questions?

Ever see Lean Mac run & if so how many times? 

Do you have any inkling of SS's history buying High Point Derby dogs?

Ever read "Stud" or "Horse of a Different Color"?

Do you understand anything about marketing?

At what level do you train & with whom?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> we have an AFC female that we considered breeding and someone suggested Lean Mac, but the financial risk vs reward compared to the potential return did not make any sense.


Do you mean Sophie? Don't you know about her elbows?


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Marvin S said:


> I'll ask you a few questions?
> 
> Ever see Lean Mac run & if so how many times?
> 
> ...



Well Marvin, although I find your response a bit contentious I'll play.

From reading your posts and previous discussions I understand you to be a fairly educated man. What part about "Rhetorical ". And "Bored " do you not understand?

Ive never seen Mac run( that I know of)

I spoke to Sherwin on different occasions in the '80's- 90's Used his "Trumarcs Sting" as stud once maybe twice. I never had a reason to keep track. (Long before all the internet heros)

He bought what he wanted and did as he pleased. Was always friendly to me.

i make a living in sales not engineering or mining. I have a very good grasp on marketing. 

As to what level do I train and with whom. Who gives a


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

I hit send before I was finished. Who gives a sh//t who I train with or what level had nothing to do with the question. But judging by my avatar I've at least been to one national. I've got a pelt or two as well.

So to my rhetorical question. Would you or not and why.

thank you Randy


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Rnd said:


> Ive never seen Mac run( that I know of)
> 
> I spoke to Sherwin on different occasions in the '80's- 90's Used his "Trumarcs Sting" as stud once maybe twice. I never had a reason to keep track. (Long before all the internet heros)
> 
> ...


I'll ignore your opening statements but most people appreciate my candor!

I saw Lean Mac a lot, as I had a dog of similar age out of Rippin Blue Thunder that was probably more dog than most people ever see in their life. 
Lean Mac remained on this circuit after Jock McLean sold him to SS as he was with Remien until he got the Blue @ Ketchum. At the time we also had
McFall, Ferrucci, the Blues Brothers (Cosmo, Spud, Otis}, their sister Debbie, Code Blue, & numerous other competitors in their prime running this 
circuit. We also ventured into Lean Mac's home territory of Canada to contest his supremacy in the derby. 

I also judged some with Sting being victorious in a Amateur I co-judged that had 5 dogs finish, Sting being the only dog that did not handle. I 
judged Minot prior to that time & had the opportunity to see some of Sherwin's prior dogs perform. Marathon Man won a DH in that trial.

I referenced the books because, though about race horses, it appeared to be Sherwin's business plan. Lean Mac's original name breeding was to FC-AFC
Carroll's Black Velvet, a really high quality bitch & the pups were quite good. But then she disappeared from SS's ownership only to resurface later with 
quite a tale to tell. Sherwin could also be quite rude with those he did not consider his equal, something that will make anyone immediately unlikable 
in my limited world. 

I inquired about the people you train with as I believe it important that one have a point of reference when discussing a subject. Sort of like getting your 
degree from a correspondence school rather than 1 pre eminent in the field of study. I had the good fortune to have been able to day train on a weekly 
basis with one of the masters in our sport & saw numerous very good dogs go through the training regimen. I also had the opportunity to travel to away 
trials with that individual (Why anyone would want to be a professional is beyond my comprehension), a lot of work & little time for fun. 

To the query: No I would not have bred to Lean Mac for the following reasons, this being when he still allowed natural breedings

1) he was not a particularly good looking specimen
2) If you had good judges his marking did not measure up to many in the field, you've read the "Best Marker Thread", while not 
having seen them all some of the praise for some of the dogs says much about the viewer & the color glasses they wore.
3) The water blinds done by Lean Mac @ Sun Valley were ugly. Have you ever seen a dog crab down to the water & unfortunately
many of his $2500 pups at the time had this same trait. As Justice Dog posted "She likes a balanced dog." I've always considered 
Code Blue & I could name a few others with titles in front of their names reflective of a balanced dog. & I have not seen them all! 

You have a nice day!


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Marvin S said:


> I'll ignore your opening statements but most people appreciate my candor!
> 
> I saw Lean Mac a lot, as I had a dog of similar age out of Rippin Blue Thunder that was probably more dog than most people ever see in their life.
> Lean Mac remained on this circuit after Jock McLean sold him to SS as he was with Remien until he got the Blue @ Ketchum. At the time we also had
> ...


Must have been the luckiest bastard in history to win 4 nationals with marking that didn’t measure up!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Do you mean Sophie? Don't you know about her elbows?


Sophie passed away two years ago, I was very well aware of her physical ailments, she was never a candidate for breeding...I do have AFC World Famous Emasculator Shemale aka Nora, but we think we missed our window of opportunity...besides we have a half sister in Lips


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

So what made him such a poplular sire then? I have no skin in this game. Just curious. He’s got tons of offspring.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Marketing helps. Herd mentality. SS had a master at promotion assisting him. Rumors of all kinds swept the doggy world. I talked face to face with SS several times and the left-coast crowd had their passions . You pay your money you get the results, sometimes not all you thought was as "advertised." Just like kids from the same parents are not the same nor even clones. Animals and humans are unique. Keep a book on judges.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> Must have been the luckiest bastard in history to win 4 nationals with marking that didn’t measure up!


And to produce the most field champions ever, what is it, 157 now?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> And to produce the most field champions ever, what is it, 157 now?


He was unquestionably a prepotent sire who had a very good fertility level and he was collected an unusually large number of times. Honcho sired half that many and he personally met each and every female.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

There is no doubt the ease of distribution of frozen semen and the improvements in non-surgical breeding using frozen have improved. There are still more FC and National FC that do not talent produce well, and he also produced many of those, but you can't say it was just marketing.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> He was unquestionably a prepotent sire who had a very good fertility level and he was collected an unusually large number of times. Honcho sired half that many and he personally met each and every female.


I never saw a bad pup from Honcho! Owned 1 & came close to buying a couple of older dogs he had sired.


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## Tom O (Jan 22, 2015)

So, we just bred Phillie (NAFTCH Hug & Moochie X Grady) to our deceased Blue (FC Stormy (daughter of Lottie) X Lean Mac). Phillie has 2 AMAT wins Blue had an Open win. "Team O'Brien"


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Charles C. said:


> Must have been the luckiest bastard in history to win 4 nationals with marking that didn’t measure up!





suepuff said:


> So what made him such a poplular sire then? I have no skin in this game. Just curious. He’s got tons of offspring.


An example: I owned a POTL pup from a litter where 3 of the 1st 6 dogs were NFC's (the sire having NAFC litter mate), 2 were FC-AFC & the lone 
untitled was a proven brood bitch. Sold @ 6 months without papers. 

Being a popular sire has much to do with marketability of pups. IMO the breed was better off when people bred to a dog they could drive to in a day!


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Trainer in AL has a litter of Mac pups going to ther new homes this week.. Cant wait to see what these guys do....

All 7 are some good looking pups


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Would I? Nope there's enough lean Mac out there, he's already in most all of the field dogs, enough so that some people for a time we advertising litters as "lean Mac" free. Sure he's got the most titled offspring, but he also has the most offspring period; and I've never seen a tabulation of exactly how many pups he's actually produced total. If we were to rank noteworthy sires, on how many titles verse, how many total pups the sire produced; I have a feeling there'd a several "not highly used sires" at the top of the list. Genetically popular sire syndrome, tends to have adverse effect in overall population health. LM was great, he had his time now it's time for other dogs to have their's.

LM died of a heart attach while in MJ's care, with as many straws as they pulled, it's no wonder .


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

It's pretty difficult to find a breeding that Maxx is not in. Often on both sides, or twice on one side and even twice on both sides. Maybe back 3 or 4 or 5 generations but included in the pups heritage.

I started out looking for a pup without any Maxx in the pedigree and ended up liking a breeding that one side did not include him. The other side included him multiple times. Oh well so much for initial plans. Kinda settled for 1/2 of the plan. I like my pup so think I made a good choice after all. 

See ya in the field. Harry


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm hardly qualified to really answer the question, but my initial thought is no for reasons already stated by Bon and others. Obviously I've not been around long enough to have seen him run, and the number of people who have grows smaller by the day.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Sure he's got the most titled offspring, but he also has the most offspring period; and I've never seen a tabulation of exactly how many pups he's actually produced total. If we were to rank noteworthy sires, on how many titles verse, how many total pups the sire produced; I have a feeling there'd a several "not highly used sires" at the top of the list.


On that note, what is the most prepotent(highest success rate of FC/AFC and above) sire ever? Didn't Chavez have a really high success rate? Who were others?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I saw him and on occasion competed against him, he was a quality dog which along with his production record promoted us to breed our AFC Candlewood’s Ms Costalot to Maxx 3 times producing 8 Field Champions.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Peter that is why those "old enough" are often challenged by "newbies" on their opinions, good, bad or indifferent. Look at our RTF thread on college football. I hve had three dogs 88, 98 and test tube 2012 all sired by the same dog. Three different bitches. I saw the stud do some of these things at the '89 NAFC that all my fathered dogs did at early stages of their FT/hunting life but were NOT trained by me to do it.No other dog contestant when given self-options did that. It was an innate behavior on their part. Equally my 2012 has some unique behaviors which I tracked down to his maternal father. Again someone , a trusted FTer had witnessed this many times. My 2012 is a copy.Not all litter mates share this(these ) behaviors.Consult behavior genetic inheritance, Remember they did the canine DNA first before humans.


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## Repaupo (Apr 28, 2005)

*Must have been the luckiest bastard in history to win 4 nationals with marking that didn’t measure up!*

*And to produce the most field champions ever, what is it, 157 now?*

These two posts seem to answer any question about would you and why ....

Alan


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Roy McFall was not a fan of AI, he liked the natural breedings, probably because of being in the game during the time that he was in, and also because the cornerstone of his line came about because in the old days breeding to stud involved the logistics of transporting your bitch to the stud at the appropriate time or being in the same are geographically or planning on being in that area...

Here is some food for thought

Had AI not been perfected or available would Lean Mac have been the prolific sire of his generation ? 

There is no doubt that AI has enabled sires to be used long after their lifetimes and careers are a distant memory in the pages of RFTN...

If AI were not available today would it change who you would breed to or who you would allow to breed to your stud?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

If it was just due to AI then why hasn't it happened again? The whole key is prepotency. There are talented sires, but if they aren't prepotent, they are forgotten quickly and onto the next big winner.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

Simply stated: "All fertility Vets were/are not created equal"! Initially this was apparent. Collections, validity/success, maintenance and
'numbers' ran the gauntlet of good to-bad. Technique and today's results exceed the early years; percentages reflect that now. Like
caveat emptor, advice to participants remains - do your homework, verify credentials, deal only with proven medics.

WD


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> If it was just due to AI then why hasn't it happened again? The whole key is prepotency. There are talented sires, but if they aren't prepotent, they are forgotten quickly and onto the next big winner.


NAFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade, it has-is happening right now . A couple generations and it will be hard to find a dog without Grady in them, most likely both sides. Whether he surpasses Maxx in the title count, well time will tell; I would think they both will be up there close in total number of offspring; but only AKC has the actual information on that.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> NAFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade, it has-is happening right now . A couple generations and it will be hard to find a dog without Grady in them, most likely both sides.


And that's because he came at the right time, was talented, and was the perfect compliment to LM's EIC Carriers and pedigree. What if he had been an EIC carrier? There were some very talented FC's that were carriers, that didn't get bred much after they were tested.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Are they going to good field trial homes or hunt test homes? There’s only one way to know if they are for real or not. 



saltgrass said:


> Trainer in AL has a litter of Mac pups going to ther new homes this week.. Cant wait to see what these guys do....
> 
> All 7 are some good looking pups


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Lots of times marketing comes through performance. 

You are what your record says you are and both Lean Mac and Grady had excellent performance records. 

I thought both were magnificent animals.

Say what you want about the frequency of their breedings, but, both have produced FC when bred to a wide variety of bitches. 

If I thought Lean Mac was the best complement to my bitch, I would have no hesitation breeding to him. 

And I could choose between the great sire or the son of the great sire, I would likely prefer to go to the great sire himself, not his get.


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Justin Allen said:


> Are they going to good field trial homes or hunt test homes? There’s only one way to know if they are for real or not.


 They are going to both HT and FT homes....


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I can’t inagine spending that kind of money on a dog to run in hunt tests. That just seems absurd time.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Justin Allen said:


> I can’t inagine spending that kind of money on a dog to run in hunt tests. That just seems absurd time.


In many cases the value is not there for FT purposes either!


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> In many cases the value is not there for FT purposes either!


Nope, better off buying 3 well-bred pups off repeat breedings with previous success and selling off the least talented 2 once you have a gauge of their abilities. $6500+ is just more of a gamble than I'm willing to take. If the dog doesn't pan out(and even Lean Mac threw a lot that didn't), you won't come close to recouping that money.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

bamajeff said:


> Nope, better off buying 3 well-bred pups off repeat breedings with previous success and selling off the least talented 2 once you have a gauge of their abilities. $6500+ is just more of a gamble than I'm willing to take. If the dog doesn't pan out(and even Lean Mac threw a lot that didn't), you won't come close to recouping that money.


In my limited opinion, the fun challenge of this sport is identifying dogs that have great potential before the acclaim 
starts & securing a position in line. Repeat breeding's are just that & as big as gamble as the original breeding. One 
acclaimed local breeding produced 4 FC-AFC's (one of whom is mentioned on these pages frequently) plus 1 that had 
AA placings. The repeat elicited the comment "Someone must have strained the sperm through a bedsheet". In one 
other case the original breeding was a dud though about a $250,000 was spent getting not even a derby lister, the 
2nd produced an NAFC. There's a lot that goes into a field title in front of a dog's name beyond having a lot of dough 
to get there.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-RQxD4Ff7dY

Marvin, I remember now who you remind me of...


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Omg. $250,000?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I have been resesrching litters for potential pup. It is crazy how much one sees Maxx in many of the pedigrees...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Tobias said:


> I have been resesrching litters for potential pup. It is crazy how much one sees Maxx in many of the pedigrees...


My first two "purebred" Labs didn't have a whole lot to shout about, though they were good hunting dogs. When I got serious (and a little more educated) for my third pup, she was Maxx granddaughter, sire a local MH/QAA, as close as I could afford to get at that time. One of my best and continues to produce for me many generations later. I have nothing against Maxx and don't look to exclude him. I don't tightly linebreed on any dog, but having him top and bottom at least 3 generations back doesn't bother me. Maybe it's because I'm Midwest and that's just our type of dog, because of how much of our training is influenced (Lardy, et al). I adore Grady to this day and his offspring I've got have been nothing but good for me. Mully, lights out marking animal. Don't know if he's going to produce yet, as far as AA offspring, but, I'm happy with what I've gotten so far. Some people fear the popular sire syndrome, and sometimes with reason, but when you are looking for a certain outcome, sometimes playing the odds of a talented dog producing the same is the way you go. Others like to avoid what "everyone else " is doing and make their own tracks. To each their own, plenty of pedigrees to go around.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's true it's hard to find a pedigree without LM, but unlike other sires, linebreeding on him has not brought out problems for me. Other than the EIC which can be tested for, it hasn't brought out health problems. Many sires I would not triple up on.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Just remember we have a "closed registry" of course there are those pesky "dilutes" and pre-DNA surprises. We have the technical means to do better. Breedng , training also represents an "understanding" of many variables. Not all folks have those understanding skills and breed willy nilly.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> Other than the EIC which can be tested for, it hasn't brought out health problems. Many sires I would not triple up on.


Important to note, it can be tested for now, but earlier it couldn't and many many EIC affected pups were birthed by tight line-breeding, and crossing back, to heavily used sires. How much of the high EIC dispersed throughout the field lab population, could be attributed to one particular highly used dog such as LM? It is indeed a good thing _*that*_ gene can be tested for. It is also nice that CNM can be tested for as it's a far worse disease, but it's also nice that the sires-lines that carried CNM were not overly used, so the gene is relatively rare in the population. So what else is out there that* can't* be tested for, which over-breeding of particular sires-dogs might bring to the forefront?

I actually think that the field lab population has made it through the LM bottleneck, EIC testing was one thing to come out of it, but a lot of positive aspects came out of it as well. While we will perhaps continue to see a few more LM breedings; they will not be as impactful on the overall population. It is a boon that we can keep few straws of noteworthy sires around, for later. I'd rather see a direct Ford or Nitro breeding be available, crossed to a LM girl in a few more years but that's just my preference .


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Just because there wasn't definitive tests yet, didn't mean we weren't aware of the conditions and who probably passed them, just saying.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Just because there wasn't definitive tests yet, didn't mean we weren't aware of the conditions and who probably passed them, just saying.


I don't know who "We" was, but I certainly had no idea who the carriers were or even if it was really any different than overheating, prior to the study and the tests coming out. It certainly wasn't common knowledge!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It maybe wasn't common knowledge, and it wasn't definitive until there was a test. With CNM there were test breedings, but EIC was more difficult because not all affected individuals were symptomatic. I can remember advising someone on the old Working Retrievers Central that doubling up on LM was not a good idea until there was a test.


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