# Ichthyosis in Goldens



## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

I was wondering if any other Golden Breeders are starting to test for this? If so, has anyone considered a data base, like we do for PRA? Or perhaps a line in k9data.com?

I had a litter last year with some affected puppies. The flaking was mild and at 6 months old, the pup with the worst flaking has no symptoms. Of course, I am not repeating that breeding in the future. As I considered the options for next year's litter I realized that I don't have any resources to determine which boys are carriers and which ones are clear.

Any ideas or feedback?

ps - I am starting to test my dogs but at the prices Optigen charges, it will take a few months.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Leslie,
http://goldendna.com/

Remember don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It's NOT the end of the world. it's a pain to explain to people but.............
Just my 2cents.
I have also had litters were their have been effected puppies.
The symptoms still persist. They don't go away OR are cured. It is managed with a good shampoo and 
http://www.kvsupply.com/KVVet/produ...2&Tree=,Anti-Fungal&refcode=NEXTAG&URLCheck=1
Sue


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## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

Thanks Sue,

It was depressing at the time to realize that despite all my efforts to breed healthy, quality puppies that this recessive genetic had shown up. But recessive is just that - recessive. Both parents are excellent dogs, titled, with great pedigrees, all their health clearances. They have value to future generations of Goldens. Just not with each other. 

I like the link to the skin supliment. One of my families added fish oil to the diet and that helped enormously. Another breeder told me that additional swim time helps to hydrate the skin and keep the flakes down.

There is a good article in the May/June issue of Golden Retriever News on Ichthyosis. Of course, this magazine came out in July and my puppies were born in May. 

I have no problem breeding around a genetic problem, but I want to be able to identify the dogs who are carriers. 

I am having the samples that I have at Optigen tested for Ich but some of my dogs are prcd-PRA clear by parentage and now I have to do blood draws on them.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

The optigen test is the answer. 
I just did PRA-prcd & ichthyosis on Fisher, the ichthyosis test came back today as clear and still waiting in prcd.


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## sterregold (May 27, 2005)

When you get your results you can submit them to http://www.goldendna.org/ for listing. I have not heard yet whether OFA will be listing those results as it will do with the PRA tests.


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## 150class (Jul 1, 2003)

my 5 y/o old male has it. Was much worse when he was younger. Flairs up twice a year as he sheds his coat. Fish oil pills twice a day helps a lot.
I'd never even heard of it until he started looking like a walking snow storm as a pup. It's not the end of the world as I thought when he was diagnosed with it.

You're somewhat local to me. He came out of Minneapolis. Any connections in bloodlines?
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=234406

I found out after the fact that his sire has it also.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

sterregold said:


> When you get your results you can submit them to http://www.goldendna.org/ for listing. I have not heard yet whether OFA will be listing those results as it will do with the PRA tests.


I'm sure OFA will start listing them. Probably takes them some time to get their website coding done to add new stuff like this. When GoldenDNA started, we anticipated that new tests would get added. Since it is a much smaller group than OFA has to deal with, it can be done more easily.

The good news is that more clear ICT results have been coming in over the past 7 to 10 days. Looking more hopeful that the original listings were skewed by those dogs where ICT was already suspected. Webmaster has had to schedule periodic updates to the site since there has been a lot of volume lately.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2011)

How are you sure?


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> Gerry Clinchy said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure OFA will start listing them./quote]
> ...


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## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

150class said:


> my 5 y/o old male has it. Was much worse when he was younger. Flairs up twice a year as he sheds his coat. Fish oil pills twice a day helps a lot.
> I'd never even heard of it until he started looking like a walking snow storm as a pup. It's not the end of the world as I thought when he was diagnosed with it.
> 
> You're somewhat local to me. He came out of Minneapolis. Any connections in bloodlines?
> ...


Not a single connection in the two pedigrees. Nice looking dog and I know his Grandpa - Freeze. Handsome boys!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Leslie, if Optigen already has tested your dog for prcd, you will NOT have to send a new sample. When you order your test, when it tells you to select the type of sample you are sending, check the box for "long-term storage". 

Shelly, Trooper's test for ICT just came back clear  Should be on GoldenDNA.org with next update.

Have also noted from listings being submitted that PRA1 doesn't seem to be as widespread as prcd is among the field lines. The "theory" seemed to be that PRA1 would be more likely to show up in UK/Euro lines. That does seem to be the case ... but it could also be that some as-yet-unidentified PRA gene is more responsible for PRA even in those lines than the PRA1 gene. The PRA1 testing that is coming in is more random than the prcd testing was in the first year. 

Right now you have to submit (on GoldenDNA) a separate permission for each test (and the test results, too). Have asked the webmaster about being able to combine multiple permissions on one form ... but I'm not the techy one, so don't know how soon that can be accomplished.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

150class said:


> my 5 y/o old male has it. Was much worse when he was younger. Flairs up twice a year as he sheds his coat. Fish oil pills twice a day helps a lot.
> I'd never even heard of it until he started looking like a walking snow storm as a pup. It's not the end of the world as I thought when he was diagnosed with it.
> 
> You're somewhat local to me. He came out of Minneapolis. Any connections in bloodlines?
> ...


You should list your dog with www.GoldenDNA.org and also make notation on his k9data entry. As more dogs get listed in both places, it will be helpful to others in their research of pedigrees.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Garden State GRC is having a health clinic on 4/22/12. If you already have tested a dog for something with Optigen, you can use the Garden State clinic code to do additional testing on your dog. (GSGRC124)

This applies to all breeds ... but you CANNOT send new samples direct to Optigen with this code. The clinic discount only applies to samples sent with the on-site clinic shipment OR samples already in-house with Optigen from previous testing.

The Optigen website does not specify the discount code period. Usually the codes are good about one week prior to the actual clinic & one week after. You will need to check with Optigen on that.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Gerry,
"The Optigen website does not specify the discount code period. Usually the codes are good about one week prior to the actual clinic & one week after. You will need to check with Optigen on that."
So I have to wait till a week before clinic or a week after to order the tests for Icth. on the 3 Goldens that have been tested for pra-prcd?
Sue


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Leslie,
> http://goldendna.com/
> 
> Remember don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
> ...


Can't agree more with you Sue. I have controlled it with proper diet.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Sue,

I have a Lab that has an area with little hair and with some scarring due to surgery. He tends to scratch it at times so I ordered the Demoscent Essential which you recommended to try and reduce any itchiness. How did you do the initial applications since he is in water on a fairly regular basis. Did this present a problem?

Thanks. I appreciate the site for purchasing various products.

Glenda


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Gerry,
> "The Optigen website does not specify the discount code period. Usually the codes are good about one week prior to the actual clinic & one week after. You will need to check with Optigen on that."
> So I have to wait till a week before clinic or a week after to order the tests for Icth. on the 3 Goldens that have been tested for pra-prcd?
> Sue


You can send an email to the 20/20 Clinic Coordinator. Should be a "contact us" button there somewhere. 

Yes, you will have to wait until the clinic code is "active" to get the discounted price. 

You can order the test any time. Since they have your dogs' DNA samples already, all you have to do is fill out the online order form & pay by credit card. (I don't think they take Discover or American Express).

With just the online ordering discount the ICT test comes to $114; with the clinic discount it comes out to $90. So, for 3 dogs, it does begin to add up.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I also got some other questions:



> 3 dogs that I think that I would like to test for icthyosis, and possibly the PRA1. They have already been tested for prcd-PRA. Is there one particular person whom we contact?
> No. You just fill out the online order form & check the box that says "sample in storage" (or something like that)
> And then you put in the clinic code on the form.
> 
> ...


 


> Should we contact OPtigen now and tell them that we want to do it during this discount period?


You can contact Optigen to ask about when the discount code will be active.

They probably didn't post a time period (as they usually do), because they didn't expect a bargain-hunter (me) to ask them about using the code for previously stored samples.

Please do contact them to ask for the time period ... and share.

Even if you did not pay for long-term storage, we found out last Sept. that they have held onto virtually all the samples previously submitted simply because they had space available to do so. When they run out of space, they will start discarding the oldest samples first ... unless you did pay for 10-year storage.

These are all simple, autosomal recessive mutations ... so some people have looked at their pedigrees carefully & tested selectively. I don't do the DNA testing until AFTER I do hips and elbows. Some people have shared testing costs with the owner of their litters' sires ... saving $ for both parties. 

Yes, this begins to get expensive with multiple dogs! If you want to discuss specific groups of dogs for cost-conscious testing, just email me at my direct email address ... PMs are cumbersome.

Also, don't forget that the GRCA Natl Spec clinic is a great time to do testing. For all 3 tests on one dog, it works out great with 45% discount on all the tests ... don't recall all the #s off the top of my head, but it's something like $233 for all three, which would regularly cost $395. $233 is only about $50 more than you'd pay for prcd testing alone without the clinic discount.

Most recent stats on www.GoldenDNA.org show that of 113 dogs listed, 11 are affected & 46 carriers. That's just over 50% that carry at least one copy of this mutated gene. 

We're very fortunate that this particular disease is not a really big issue in Goldens even for affected dogs. However, in spite of that some service groups find it unacceptable due to cosmetic issues for dogs that go to public places.

Even though this mutation seems to be widespread across a broad spectrum of bloodlines, we should always be wary of being too quick to cull carriers, or even affected dogs ... when the next DNA test comes along, it may be a more serious disease and those dogs may be "clear" for whatever that "new" disease might be.


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## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> I also got some other questions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I strongly agree that we should not eliminate these dogs from the gene pool. We already have a shrinking gene pool and who knows what else will rise to the surface. 

We are lucky in that ICH has a wide range in the degree it affects the dog. Some dogs only have mild flaking at times to a perpetual hardening of the skin, hair loss, and discomfort. 

Thank you Gerry for goldendna.com. and the owners who test and post the results of their dogs. It gives all of us the information to make informed decisions when breeding our dogs.

I am planning to breed my ICH carrier girl again - but to a clear male.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> We are lucky in that ICH has a wide range in the degree it affects the dog. Some dogs only have mild flaking at times to a perpetual hardening of the skin, hair loss, and discomfort.


I had not heard of any Goldens with this disease having hair loss or discomfort, even when they have extensive flaking that persists into adulthood. However, I have to admit to knowing very little about ICT, am only going by what I hear from those who have experienced it.

Evidently, other breeds DO have some significant problems. In humans the disease can also effect the eyes. In fetal development eye and skin cells both originate from fetal epithelial cells, so I can see that possible connection. Can also see where it would be a seriouso problem if the flaking issue included eye cells after birth.

So, it's wise for us to be intelligently cautious without getting hysterical. Probably a good path regardless of what disease we have to deal with in our dogs.

Interestingly, as we learn more about diseases at the genetic level and how the same mutated genes can occur in very unrelated dog families, outcrossing can still turn up unexpected problems. Dog breeding is getting more complex!


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Gerry, do you know if they will offer discounted testing at the GRCA national for just the PRA1 and ICT? Some of the dogs will have already been tested for prcd-PRA.
Thanks


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

When Optigen testing is available at the National Specialty, the clinic discounts work the same as always ... if you do more than one test, you get 45% discount. You DO NOT have to do all 3 to get a multiple-test discount.

So, with a clinic discount for those two tests, the cost is around $133. The regular price for ICT only would be $114. Thus, you get the PRA1 test for only about $30 more. That's quite a good deal.

And, if the dog has already been tested for prcd, then you just have to order the new tests ... don't even have to send in a new sample.

There are some people with "clear by parentage" dogs that can also take advantage on a special price for prcd testing of such dogs. If both parents were tested by Optigen as clear, you can check offspring for just $95. Only gets the online discount of 5%, so about $90. (Of course they have no sample for that dog, so you DO have to send a sample). Since that pricing is already more than 50% of the regular price, they don't offer a clinic discount for that. But if you do it at the National Spec, you do save on blood draw and shipping.

Why would we do this? First, because "clear by parentage" is only accepted generally for one generation. Second, for those who question the accuracy of the test (a question raised before by some), it can confirm that the original testing of the parents was accurate.

Probably more useful for stud dogs, and there are a couple of stud dog owners who have used this particular discount. 

I'm wondering if they will come out with a similar "deal" for the other tests? However, Optigen doesn't "own" those other tests as they do the prcd test; so such a decision would be up to AHT or Antagene.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks Gerry, good information.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Gerry clear your PM's.
Sue


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Just use my regular email address in my signature.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Glenda,
The essential oils are such an oil base. They shouldn't simply just wash away by swimming. But "IF" you should chose to bathe your dog the doggy shampoo will dissolve the oils and will wash away.


tzappia,
I haven't yet seen a "Proper" diet control the icty. But adding amega 3's and other fatty acids don't hurt.I can say that over the yrs. the general public "IS" feeding their pets better foods. Rarely do I see at my boarding kennel (generic-type foods).
The disease is there it always will be. it is more of a pain when you have puppies ready to go home because they are small and cute and their little bodies are changing daily and the more you brush the worse it seems to be ,new owners want that "Perfect" golden and and and................

I also have NOT seen discomfort,hardening of the skin or hair loss. I do like the essential oils. It makes the whole house smell nice too.
Sue


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Does anyone have a photo of an affected puppy? 
Google search shows humans affected with this condition


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Haven't seen any photos of affected pups, but on another list someone had posted a photo of an adult with significant flaking. 

The dog was standing on a grooming table & that amount of "dandruff" on the table was like he was standing in a light snowfall. I was really surprised by the large amount of flakes ... the dog had apparently just been brushed.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I know this is an older thread....someone on another forum asked if anyone knows the proper dose of fish oil for an affected dog who has pretty bad flaking?? Any ideas?


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Glad you "resurrected" this thread, Barb.

Antagene has explained that the fish oils can help because ICT is a problem with the lipid process ... so adding oils can help. However, it is not certain that this will help all dogs, but it might help some. So, you'll probably be using trial-and-error to find out what dosage works for each individual dog.

I'm not certain, but I think that these fish oils are also blood thinners. If so, then if you have a surgical procedure scheduled for such a dog, you may want to discontinue the oils for a period of time prior to surgery or teeth cleaning. Ask your vet about this.

On other lists, the question of affected dogs included the mention of the flakes being large, being hyper-pigmented (black), and there being an odor associated with the condition. Due to the poor skin condition, secondary bacterial infections could present a problem as well from a maintenance standpoint.

It would be really helpful if people would share more first-hand experiences with affected dogs. There have been some breedings done of carrXcarr; carrXaffected; and even affXaff dogs. Some intentional, some when people were unaware of the testing available & unsuspecting that the disease might be present. Easy to do when some dogs are affected and have no apparent symptoms! 

My sense is that most people do not see ICT as any significant quality of life issue ... and at this point, I tend to agree with them. But (there's always a "but", isn't there?) what if we're not right about that? The data gained from these CxC, CxA, and AxA breedings could be very helpful in letting us know whether we can "relax" in regard to this particular disease or should be more conscious of breeding affected dogs. 


Based on Antagene's statistics thru 7/31/1, we have almost 50% of US/Can Goldens (of those tested) who are carriers or affected ... so we don't have an over-abundant supply of dogs who have no copy of the mutated gene. If practical experience shows this disease to be more troublesome than it appears now, then we will want to hold ground and preserve a reservoir of "clear" dogs to breed to carriers and affecteds.

With prcd, even at our worst, we were running about 20% carriers, and very few affected. We had (and continue to have) a large reservoir of dogs with no copy of the mutated gene ... plenty of dogs to breed to carriers or affected with safety. We could effectively "manage" the disease very well and maintain a majority of clear dogs in the gene pool (while still breeding carriers that have merit in other respects).

I recently bred a 3-clear bitch to a carrier sire for both prcd and ICT ... all 3 bitch puppies came up clear for prcd! I could hardly believe that. However, on ICT only one of the bitch pups was clear for that as well. Yet, there are still the hips, elbows to worry about. And, then we still have to evaluate which of those three girls might have the most merit for reproducing ... based on the other traits that we seek in our breeding programs. We'll still have to apply the "art" of breeding to the "science" of DNA (& other health) testing.

But we still need to know what the real-life data is to make reasonable decisions for breeding.

BTW, two of the dogs who tested affected for prcd as youngsters, are now about 6 years old. So far they both have normal eye exams. Daphne, the original affected that was found, is now over 10. She has some minimal vision left, but if she were human you would say she is "legally" blind. She still enjoys retrieving bumpers in her yard  She had great fun doing a "glory run" in agility where entries were donated to charity ... she knocked down every bar since she could not see them, but jumped every time her "mom" told her to  

To brag for Mardi Closson who owns Daphne, her breeding choice allowed Daphne to leave a remarkable heritage ... of her 9 puppies in her one litter, 8 of them achieved titles to qualify her for Outstanding Dam status with GRCA; 3 MACHs, 3 Agility Hall of Fame, 2 USDAA agility Champions, and one NADAC agility champion; a couple of WCs, CCAs, and a TDX also in the mix; and her only daughter to be bred also became an Outstanding Dam with 13 qualifying get of her own.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

thanks Gerry, I will pass that along about the fish oil.
On GoldenDNA it looks like about 70% of the dogs are either affected or carriers. Just got the test results back from the DNA test we did at National, my boy is an ICT carrier. Luckily he is prcd-PRA clear and PRA-1 clear. Anyway, he will now only be bred to bitches who have been tested and are ICT clear.
I hope a lot of the people who had their dogs tested at National post the results to goldendna. I will as soon as I get the formal paperwork from Optigen (only got the email so far).
In hindsight, my older boy had ICT. It was misdiagnosed as allergies, but he was never itchy. Just lots of flaky skin, and ultimately hyperpigmentation. It tended to flare up under times of extreme stress. We controlled it with medicated shampoo, but again, we didn't know what it was. He also developed late onset demodex, which we fought for about 4 years until he eventually passed on this year. I wonder if there was any relationship between the ICT and the demodex?
The dog had all sorts of problems. He was blind from PU, had IBD, had no spleen, had demodex, had hip dysplasia, but lived 14 happy years. He was my heart dog.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> On GoldenDNA it looks like about 70% of the dogs are either affected or carriers


I was mistaken ... here are the statistics from Antagene for ICT testing as of 7/31/2012 (they were published on GoldenDNA's Facebook page a few months ago.


> - Australia : 47,7% clear, 40,9% carrier, 11,4% affected (number of dogs has slightly increased)
> 
> - USA : 38,9% clear, 47,1% carrier, 14% affected
> 
> - Europe : 16,8% clear, 40,1% carrier, 43,1% affected


These are the stats on 900 dogs tested in each Europe and USA; only about 138 dogs tested in Australia. So US/Canada has less than 40% clear. It would appear that owners with clear-tested dogs are not as likely to list their results on GoldenDNA.org? 

Since the reservoir of clear dogs is rather small, it's really helpful to list them in ways that people can find them easily. With so many carriers of the mutation, many people want/need to limit their choices to clear sires.

Unfortunately, you cannot search for "clear by parentage" on GoldenDNA. We only record dogs who have actually been tested. You might want to use k9data "honorifics" field for that ... since if you put the info in the health clearance fields, you cannot search with that field.

Back in the 4rd Quarter of 2011, a total of 145 Goldens were tested in that period for ICT (per Optigen statistics). That would not have included our Natl Specialty in 2011 where my count was My best count from the Natl Specialty this year was 95 Goldens tested for ICT! That increased the Antagene database in USA by 10% in just one swoop! It was the most "popular" test among the 113 dogs tested.

I noticed that Winter Discount Days at Optigen in 2011 were Jan. 2 - 16. If anyone missed testing at the National, watch for the winter discount days this year.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I also think that it's very important for owners of the bitches to test as well as the stud dogs. With the chances almost 70% that the stud dog is either a carrier or affected, it becomes crucial to know the bitch's status, just in case the stud dog hasn't been tested.
Ran into this very recently.....bitch not tested....decided against my boy because he's a carrier. Not a problem. Except the stud they are going with hasn't been tested. Doesn't seem to "get it" that the stud dog has a 70% chance of being either a carrier or affected! Apparently, because he hasn't been tested, he must be clear?
I don't understand the "head in the sand" mentality.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I find it disheartening that only 900 dogs in the USA have been tested....out of how many registered golden retrievers? And how many breeding dogs?
Of almost 2000 goldens at National (I heard that estimate but believe it to be high) only 95 were tested for something that is found in almost 70% of the breed?




Gerry Clinchy said:


> These are the stats on 900 dogs tested in each Europe and USA; only about 138 dogs tested in Australia. So US/Canada has less than 40% clear.
> My best count from the Natl Specialty this year was 95 Goldens tested for ICT! That increased the Antagene database in USA by 10% in just one swoop! It was the most "popular" test among the 113 dogs tested.
> 
> .


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## Judy Myers (Feb 15, 2009)

I agree with you, Barb. I have seen breedings to carriers by bitches that have not been tested. It's very easy to get the test done if they have already done prcd-PRA. The sample is already at Optigen. Since Trek is a carrier, I have now included in my contract a requirement that the bitch not only have the main four clearances but that they also be tested for Ichthyosis. Then everyone can make an informed decision about the breeding. So far, every owner of a bitch that has been bred to Trek since I found out about his status has been willing to have the test done even if they were previously unaware of the condition or the test.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I find it disheartening that only 900 dogs in the USA have been tested....out of how many registered golden retrievers? And how many breeding dogs?
> Of almost 2000 goldens at National (I heard that estimate but believe it to be high) only 95 were tested for something that is found in almost 70% of the breed?


But we shouldn't forget that some of the dogs at the National had already been tested. 

We also need to remember that this test just came out in Jan. 2011, and it has taken some time to realize that the # of clear dogs is so low. When a friend suspected it in her line, just from a puppy who had dry skin on his belly as a "baby" (and no symptoms at all now), I also decided to test. Maybe I had missed something as minor as that in the past? At that point, I still had no idea that it would turn out to be such a widespread gene.

As a result of my friend and I testing, another friend tested her stud dog ... and found him to be a carrier. This led her to decline a planned breeding when the proposed mate came up affected (also with no visible symptoms).

I believe you are correct, Barb, in that with a gene this widespread, it is important to test our bitches. It will be the owner of the bitch who will have to deal with any problems with the resulting offspring. So, the bitch-owner has a vested interest in knowing what the outcome is likely to be.

But I still raise the question of needing the hard data on the symptoms of those dogs affected. If 14% of our Goldens are affected (and this gene turns up in field and show lines, with no "discrimination"), then it would really be helpful to breeders to know more about what the chances are of having severe symptoms. If there are 100,000 Goldens living in the US/Canada today, that means that 14,000 of them are affected. How many of them show symptoms of any kind? How many show severe symptoms?

Since it is a lipid metabolism issue, it might also mean that symptoms may be triggered by environmental issues ... food, allergies, stress, other diseases. This may hold some clues on how to treat the dogs who have the more severe symptoms. Thus far, the disease does not seem to be one of great consequence. Are we right? Are we wrong? We just don't seem to have the raw data to know.

With a low number of clear dogs, it also demonstrates that we cannot always simply discard carriers, or even affecteds, without great thought. What would it be like if we took those ICT carriers and affecteds out of the Golden gene pool? Possible disaster when we discovered another, even more serious disease, among the dogs left in the gene pool. Notice I said "when" and not "if". For old-timers who have made the journey from just xraying hips, through the new diseases that have come to light, I imagine we'll find more diseases in the future.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I've added that to my requirements now, too, Judy. Although in comparison to other *issues* in goldens ichthyosis is relatively minor, why pass it on when we have the ability to selectively breed to prevent it?


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I think that we all missed the point (good) point of Judy's "Then everyone can make an *informed decision* about the breeding".
*Keep in mind that testing and publishing the results in whatever printed venue SHOULD be about informing the public NOT chastizing a particular breeding or dog*.
Ichthyosis is NOT the end of the world. It *does NOT* follow a norm. It comes in different forms. It can effect one dog differently than another. One dog can have very little flaking while another can have allot.
Fish oils being a blood thinner??????????
Never heard that one before. I take 2 very large pills every day per my doctors instructions for my slightly high cholesteral.
I personally won't have a problem breeding to a carrier of anything "IF" my gals were clear. I would rather have MY options of a bigger gene pool to work with rather than settling to what was left even though Perfect!!!!!!!! 
I also think that the structure of a dog is more important than the other tests. But that's my own opinion 
Sue


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Just thinking out loud Gerry, I think the biggest problem is that so many veterinarians don't appear to be familiar with the disease in goldens. They misdiagnose it as allergies, thyroid, food problems, and so on. Just like many vets were not, until recently, familiar with PU. So we can't tell how much of a problem it really is until the vets start diagnosing it. 
My older boy had what I am sure, in hindsight, was ichthyosis, but I never knew that's what it was. His symptoms fit 100%. But the vet never called it that. His flared and remitted throughout his life, it was bad when he was around 2 years old, then it seemed to pretty much resolve itself until he was about 8. Then it came and went until he died at almost 14. 
It was never anything other than a cosmetic issue with him. Although as I said, he did develop chronic demodex at about 10 years old, so is there a relationship there? Or was that because he had his spleen out and the anti-parasitic T-cells are largely manufactured in the spleen? 
Now here's a bizarre thought....my boy lived to be almost 14, and appeared to be cancer free other than a soft tissue tumor on his wrist that didn't metastasize as far as we know. Perhaps (I throw this out there as I said, as a bizarre thought) we should check the life expectancy of the dogs with ichthyosis versus clear dogs? Are affected dogs, due to a difference in lipid metabolism, less prone to cancer? Who knows?
I don't intend to stop breeding my boy because he's an ICT carrier, but I will only breed him to clear females. I don't think he should be automatically removed from the gene pool, he has a lot of other stuff to offer. But I don't think he has enough to offer that he should be bred to affected or carrier bitches.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I wasn't disagreeing with Judy at all, I'm sorry if it came across that way. My boy is a carrier, and I have no problem breeding him to clear bitches, and the people who I've talked to about breeding to him have no problem breeding to him as long as their bitches are clear. I just don't want to breed him to a carrier or affected bitch. 
Fish oils are, btw, a blood thinner. My husband takes them on the advice of his cardiologist, and he has to stop taking them 3-4 weeks before any major procedures. 




Sue Kiefer said:


> I think that we all missed the point (good) point of Judy's "Then everyone can make an *informed decision* about the breeding".
> *Keep in mind that testing and publishing the results in whatever printed venue SHOULD be about informing the public NOT chastizing a particular breeding or dog*.
> Ichthyosis is NOT the end of the world. It *does NOT* follow a norm. It comes in different forms. It can effect one dog differently than another. One dog can have very little flaking while another can have allot.
> Fish oils being a blood thinner??????????
> ...


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/demodectic-mange-dogs

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/ichthyosis.aspx


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/467353-can-you-take-fish-oil-with-blood-thinners/


Sue


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## Judy Myers (Feb 15, 2009)

I used the words "informed decision" very purposely. There may be times when a decision is reached to breed a carrier to a carrier or even to an affected, because, as Gerry points out, the gene pool is limited, and we need to be careful not to limit it to the point that it is no longer viable. But, in a carrier to carrier or carrier to affected situation, both the bitch owner and the puppy buyers should know the potential for affected puppies, and what, if any, compensation might be provided if a puppy does develop a significant problem. Or perhaps, in those situations, the bitch owner could test the litter prior to placing them. In any case, the more informed everyone is, the better for the breed.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Interesting articles, Sue. My older boy had adult onset, generalized demodex. It was on his face and all 4 legs. He was on and off of liquid ivermectin for the last several years of his life, which caused him some neurological issues. That was why I had to keep taking him off of it. He never could get to the full therapeutic dose, which might be why we never totally cleared it up. 
The ichthyosis article seems to discuss the more severe form that is found in other breeds. From the little I've read, luckily the form that affects the goldens tends to be much less serious. 
Especially good article on fish oil, anyone taking it should be aware of the blood thinning effects as it could be very important to them some day.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

So very well said, and so very true.



Judy Myers said:


> In any case, the more informed everyone is, the better for the breed.


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## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

Gerry, thanks for the insight. 

I agree with you that the quality of life for the affected dogs appear to be good, however, some of the reading I did indicated that the European dogs seem to be more severely affected by the disorder. We have no idea why some dogs are more severely affected than others. 

Last year I had a litter with 7 out of 13 puppies affected. Off I went on a search of the disorder. My girl, Ruby showed no flakes but I talked with the stud owner and he revealed that his dog has had outbreaks of flakes from time to time. He thought it meant that it was time to give Henry a bath. Neither of us had heard of the disorder - much less the test. 

Some/most of the puppies had flakes that were hard to find, one was very much covered in flakes. I placed the little girl who was the most affected with a friend. At 17 months old, this pup has grown into a bright, happy, healthy dog with a zest for life. She has outbreaks of flaking from time to time but the fish oil in her diet keeps it to a minimum. Regular swimming has also helped to keep it down. I am unsure it is because the water washes away flakes or if it helps to hydrate the skin. The disorder has NOT slowed her down in the least.

Looking at the pedigree of the parents of this litter, it is apparent that some very talented dogs (and therefore frequently bred) were carriers or affected. I have bred both dogs since that litter - but not with each other. My personal opinion is that I will breed around this recessive gene and not produce any litters that would have any affected puppies. It has also made me look more closely at frequently used sires. Although it is nice to see what a dog has already produced, these recent genetic tests have made me more aware of the hidden but long term impact that they can have on our shrinking gene pool.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Wondering..."some of the reading I did indicated that the European dogs seem to be more severely affected by the disorder. We have no idea why some dogs are more severely affected than others"..

Is the gene pool in Europe even less then here?..so carriers and affected were line bred more, or even outcross had many carriers/affected so it has become more severe? 

If we are now select breeding to prevent both parents being carriers or affected producing litters..would possibly prevent a more serious Ichthyosis? .as in some other breeds as well? 

This is a good thread...thanks..

ps...my Ranger is clear and Sebec is a carrier

Judy


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## Carol (Aug 17, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> How are you sure?


Just an FYI, OFA is posting Icthyosis results:


NAME	REGISTRATION	BREED	SEX	COLOR	TEST/FILM DATE	AGE	OFA #	TEST
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	Jul 26 2012	24	GR-CA22436/24M/C-VPI	CARDIAC
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	Jul 30 2012	24	GR-106408G24M-VPI	HIPS
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	Jul 30 2012	24	GR-EL27154M24-VPI	ELBOW
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	Jun 11 2012	22	GR-PRA244/22M-VPI	PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	Jun 13 2012	22	GR-GR177/22M-VPI	GR1 PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	Jun 19 2012	23	GR-ICH63/23M-VPI-CAR	ICHTHYOSIS
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	Mar 2 2012	20	GR-346312	CERF
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205	GOLDEN RETRIEVER	M	GOLDEN	May 30 2012	22	GR-TH2261/22M-VPI	THYROID


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Carol, do you have to submit them to OFA or is Optigen doing it?
Thanks

ETA---LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jun 19 2012 23 GR-ICH63/23M-VPI-CAR ICHTHYOSIS

does that mean carrier?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Judy Chute said:


> Wondering..."some of the reading I did indicated that the European dogs seem to be more severely affected by the disorder. We have no idea why some dogs are more severely affected than others"..
> 
> Is the gene pool in Europe even less then here?..so carriers and affected were line bred more, or even outcross had many carriers/affected so it has become more severe?
> 
> ...


From what recent research I've been doing on the British lines, they seem to have a higher COI on average than the US dogs. At least in that country, I think their breeding pool for field dogs is much smaller than here judging by the pedigrees I've been researching. They also seem to breed the bitches well into their 8th to 10th year, in the case of some I've seen in the more high achieving field dog pedigrees. 

They have an interesting pedigree database there called Standfast Data. Similar to K9 Data, but different. You have to email the database administrator to become a "member" before you can do any searches, but it's worth it, if you're interested.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

OFA will record any and all DNA test results from accredited laboratories, as far as I know. Some people are also testing for DM, although I believe that is very rare in Goldens. I believe the fee is $15 (though I haven't checked recently), www.GoldenDNA.org is at no charge (it depends on voluntary donations).

It would be tremendously valuable, I think, for us to keep track of the physical symptoms of ICT for future reference. Until now, people (including vets) simply haven't been familiar enough with the disease. If we are to know whether we can make symptoms worse by our breeding choices, we will only learn this if we collect the data. I'm not exactly sure how we can do that in an organized fashion so that the data can be most useful.

What we are learning is that DNA testing is not "the answer" to our problems. It is a "tool" to use in making breeding choices that minimize the probability of producing animals affected with diseases that can predictably affect the dog's quality of life. It has not removed any of the many variables we were already balancing in our breeding assessments ... it has just added more variables to consider in each breeding.

I begin to imagine that one day all breeders will have computer software to compute all this stuff ... much like k9data does with COIs.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I should know the answer to this, but I don't....didn't GRCA do a pretty big health survey recently? Did it include questions about ichythyosis?


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Another forum to which I belong is just for golden retrievers, and it's surprising how often people post questions about skin problems in their dogs, which are almost beyond a doubt symptoms of ichthyosis, but no one seems to have heard of it or know what it is, including the vets.


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## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Another forum to which I belong is just for golden retrievers, and it's surprising how often people post questions about skin problems in their dogs, which are almost beyond a doubt symptoms of ichthyosis, but no one seems to have heard of it or know what it is, including the vets.


I agree whole heartedly. I am so lucky that my vet is the BEST and knew ICH as soon as he saw it in my puppies. Out came his reference books and he went over it with me before I left he office. I know that the other vet in the area would never have noticed the flakes.

I also started noting a trend in puppy buyers in the last few years. It seems that more and more families tell horror stories of skin disorders and allergies in the Golden that they recently lost. 

Of course, then I also get an equal number of families that feel the price of a well bred Golden is too high. These folks wont listen when I explain the vet costs that they might end up paying for the $250 dog out of the newspaper with no health clearances or dna testing.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Leslie B said:


> I strongly agree that we should not eliminate these dogs from the gene pool. We already have a shrinking gene pool and who knows what else will rise to the surface.
> 
> We are lucky in that ICH has a wide range in the degree it affects the dog. Some dogs only have mild flaking at times to a perpetual hardening of the skin, hair loss, and discomfort.
> 
> ...


Someone recently expressed interest in breeding to my Alex so I ordered the PRA prcd and Ichthyosis test from Optigen, I had a question about which PRA test I should do so had a nice conversation with the lady at Optigen about it. When she herd I was also doing the Ichthyosis test she told me not to be alarmed and over react if my dog showed up as a carrier. She said that so far 65% of Goldens have been shown to be carriers, and if we eliminated otherwise fine, healthy dogs on the basis of that, we would be doing a disservice to the breed. We both exchanged stories about wonderful animals we had in the past, that if we tested their DNA, dollars to donuts would show up as Ichthyosis affected. Cheryl and I just assumed our Yoda had dry skin and or food alergies, it came and went over the years, didn't seem to bother him much and we were able to control it with diet. Yoda is now 14 years old, was the best hunting dog I ever saw, derby points, QAA at 2 1/2 and won a big tough Open the day before he turned five, and he is the best family dog ever with a big smile for anybody that approches. What I'm saying is I'm glad we didn't have the DNA test back then as Yoda might not have been b


John


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Whistler's brother was affected, I assume Whistler was, and I think Carbon is, as once a year we struggle a little with flakes. However, Carbon will not be bred, so I won't test him.
If I use frozen Whistler, I will warn the puppy people, but it won't stop me from using it. His siblings lived to be over 12, one to close to 16. I will look for that and talent, and what I consider crippling issues. I do not consider once a year flakes crippling. He had very few issues late in life. 
I really do worry about over testing for everything, as we are going to get the golden breed in the same trouble flatcoats got themselves into. Oh well.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> I really do worry about over testing for everything, as we are going to get the golden breed in the same trouble flatcoats got themselves into.


We are fortunate that we have the experience of other breeds to guide us in using testing wisely. To follow on John's post as well, the whole thing about this testing is to gather information so that we can evaluate information as wisely as possible, being aware of preserving genetic diversity and other important traits.

It means we have to be more thoughtful in the decisions we make, and more aware of long-term consequences for the breed. 

So far I refuse to get a cell phone that is smarter than I am ... but eventually I'll probably have to give in. A lot of us can remember life before home computers were as commonplace as they are today. I still know a few people who don't have email. OMG! So smart phones and computers have made life easier in some ways; more annoying in other ways  Yet, most of us wouldn't turn the technology clock backward. That's all we're really facing here ... more technology.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I think that the biggest pain of the Ichthyosis. is that it is awful when the public comes to pick up their "Perfect" puppy and it has flaky skin. And it is worse when they are little and fluffy and sooo cute....................
Also you have to remember that it seems to effect some puppies worse than others.
Certainly NOT the end of the world. 
Sue


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Along the same lines, I think the most important thing is educating vets, breeders, and the public about what Ichthyosis is, and isn't (allergies!). People would be a lot more accepting of it if they understood it, I think.



Sue Kiefer said:


> I think that the biggest pain of the Ichthyosis. is that it is awful when the public comes to pick up their "Perfect" puppy and it has flaky skin. And it is worse when they are little and fluffy and sooo cute....................
> Also you have to remember that it seems to effect some puppies worse than others.
> Certainly NOT the end of the world.
> Sue


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Along the same lines, I think the most important thing is educating vets, breeders, and the public about what Ichthyosis is, and isn't (allergies!). People would be a lot more accepting of it if they understood it, I think.


SO TRUE along with BREEDERS UNDERSTANDING GENETICS.
The DNA tests for Ichthyosis, PRA, etc are not about culling dogs from breeding programs! It is about KNOWING WHAT YOU HAVE.
"Old Trigger sometimes had dandruff, he won a million Opens though and was a great dog, if we knew about DNA tests back then we probably wouldn't have bred him, good thing we didn't know!" 
That's NOT THE POINT of the DNA tests!
If you KNOW what old Trigger's status is, regardless of genotype you can breed him, you just have the KNOWLEDGE and POWER to never produce another AFFECTED dog again!


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

So very, very well said.



Furball said:


> SO TRUE along with BREEDERS UNDERSTANDING GENETICS.
> *The DNA tests for Ichthyosis, PRA, etc are not about culling dogs from breeding programs! It is about KNOWING WHAT YOU HAVE.*"Old Trigger sometimes had dandruff, he won a million Opens though and was a great dog, if we knew about DNA tests back then we probably wouldn't have bred him, good thing we didn't know!"
> That's NOT THE POINT of the DNA tests!
> If you KNOW what old Trigger's status is, regardless of genotype you can breed him, you just have the KNOWLEDGE and POWER to never produce another AFFECTED dog again!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Furball said:


> SO TRUE along with BREEDERS UNDERSTANDING GENETICS.
> The DNA tests for Ichthyosis, PRA, etc are not about culling dogs from breeding programs! It is about KNOWING WHAT YOU HAVE.
> "Old Trigger sometimes had dandruff, he won a million Opens though and was a great dog, if we knew about DNA tests back then we probably wouldn't have bred him, good thing we didn't know!"
> That's NOT THE POINT of the DNA tests!
> If you KNOW what old Trigger's status is, regardless of genotype you can breed him, you just have the KNOWLEDGE and POWER to never produce another AFFECTED dog again!


Isn't it? Pandora's box has been opened and there is no going back, I think the point some are making is the question of "would we have bred some of these wonderful dogs such as Trigger and my Yoda if we knew up front they could well be affected?" I realize having the knowledge DNA provides doesn't preculude you from going ahead with the breeding regardless, but I believe that those breedings will become less likely. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing is thup for debate.

John


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

John,
While yes Pandora's box is open..............
I think that with the knowledge that we have now and the wonderful technology that will continue to be available to us in the future will help us make better decisions with breeding our Goldens.
I can't look into the past. Would I have bred to so and so knowing what I know now?
I look at some of the great ones now I think OMG would I love to have one of his puppies now.
Would I?, knowing what I know now. Yes.
John,
You will always have some folks that point fingers and sigh and make large comments about so and so's dog having this or that genetic disease and thank their lucky stars they didn't take a puppy or breed to that dog.
As I get older I laugh at the stupidity of it all and thank my lucky stars that I'm NOT that shallow.
Sue


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> I realize having the knowledge DNA provides doesn't preculude you from going ahead with the breeding regardless, but I believe that those breedings will become less likely.


It is up to those who understand to continue to educate those who may not be clear on this. We will have more tests in the future, not less ... we really must use the tools wisely and keep the gene pool diverse.

It's daunting to us right now because we are the "first generation" to have these tools. It is also going to be up to us to make sure we keep educating the next generation. 

Sue also raises a good point, the more of us who share the information we gather openly, the more it encourages others to do the same. With the forthright data, we can all benefit.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> It is up to those who understand to continue to educate those who may not be clear on this. We will have more tests in the future, not less ... we really must use the tools wisely and keep the gene pool diverse.
> 
> It's daunting to us right now because we are the "first generation" to have these tools. It is also going to be up to us to make sure we keep educating the next generation.
> 
> Sue also raises a good point, the more of us who share the information we gather openly, the more it encourages others to do the same. With the forthright data, we can all benefit.


Good points Gerry, the best approach is to use all the tools, new and old to educate yourself, then weigh everything wisely as you make a breeding decision.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

this has been a great thread. Thanks to all who have posted!


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## Mary Shillabeer (Oct 29, 2007)

Earlier on in this thread, someone asked if anyone had any pictures. I have a friend who is a groomer. She has a client dog, with very severe Ichthyosis. This may be an extreme case, but I think we have to take this seriously, and breed to not produce more "affecteds". With the number of carriers (including my own girl) I wonder if there will be any clears in 10-15 years? 

This is from Leanne Tucker (she joined the group, but can't post a URL yet):


I groom an English line Golden that is affected with Ichthyosis. I took pictures of him last year. His skin condition was finally diagnosed via a skin biopsy as their regular vet had no idea what was going on with him. Back then I didn't have a clue either! Once I did some research I had the owners submit blood for the DNA test ... of course it confirmed his skin biopsy results. Sammy is a happy guy, but for his owners it is VERY bothersome. He leaves skin flakes everywhere he goes. These pictures show how he is all the time. He is in for grooming every three weeks with a special shampoo to re-hydrate his skin. Thyroid is clear and he doesn't seem to have allergies. He is on all sorts of fish oils etc. He is not itchy at all, but if he has any skin irritation ie: hotspot, it takes weeks to heal. 


http://sammyskin.imgur.com/69PR2#mbHq9 

These were taken after his bath and high velocity blow dry. I start blow drying him in the tub, I should have taken a picture of the bath tub and the flakes too. I think there is a huge variance in how it affects dogs, this dog seems to be quite the extreme.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Here is another ichthyosis picture, a grooming client of mine 11 year old neutered male "pet pedigree"
This is his left back leg. His WHOLE BODY was covered in this extraordinary dandruff.


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## Carol (Aug 17, 2004)

hotel4dogs said:


> Carol, do you have to submit them to OFA or is Optigen doing it?
> Thanks
> 
> ETA---LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jun 19 2012 23 GR-ICH63/23M-VPI-CAR ICHTHYOSIS
> ...


Hi Barb,
Yes you have to submit them to OFA, the cost to record is $15.00 and yes the CAR means carrier. By the way, you can do a search on OFA for the Ichthyosis test and find all the dogs that have their results recorded. Currently only 76 dogs have their results recorded.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks Carol!


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