# first time and first dog



## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

so as you may recall we had to scratch our first derby (drew #17 dog) because of an incident with a barb wire fence (the fence won!). stitches were removed today and the vet gave us the all clear

i signed up for a test last week thinking that was the response we would get

couple weeks ago i posed a question to my training group. if i was the first dog to the line and i told you i had never run a trial and neither had my dog. would you allow me to drop back a few dogs to get the hang of it

responses varied (including from one who will be a judge at the very derby we will be at) most said probably not

well of course i jinxed myself. got drawn as first dog

what would you as a judge do in this situation? stick the script? drop back a few?


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

That's why there's a test dog.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Three answers

1. Politically correct response: " Just watch me and we'll show you how its done"

2. Real life real world response: "Get in there and Git R Done"

3. Field Trial snob response: " you're not ready for field trials, go try a hunt test"

if you are already this apprehensive about drawing an early spot, maybe you need to re examine if you and your dog are ready to compete, because sooner or later you will draw the starting spot either by the rotation or by luck of the draw..I know of many a seasoned FT competitor that would prefer to be first up in the 4 th series and establish such excellent work that they make others change their tactics to try and beat them


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

No you should be able to adjust the line up. Run as your number is designated. Why should anything be different for you?? Just run the trial!! JMO.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Just run, if others say you're not ready for FT and are you'll know that these are the people to stay away from as they are selfish and could care less about you or your dog. 
Just don't understand people anymore.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

First is not a bad place for a first time young dog. No drag back scent. Unless he has learned to run through drag back young dog in it's first trial can get stopped dead in his tracks with drag back


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Judges judge dogs. Judges may decide to establish a rotation - although most do not for the minor stakes. Other than setting a rotation, judges do not establish a running order.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Run number one, it is a good spot. It is a marking test, your dog is either a good marker or not. And as other's have mentioned no drag back. You do not have time to get too nervous and your dog does not have too much time to get all worked-up. Plus you will look better and feel better about yourself instead of looking all wimpy about having to ask for a favor to run later.
Colleen


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

First AKC Junior test for both me and my dog. Dog not FF @ 7 months old. We were supposed to run second but the pro in first position was at another venue. Had to run first. After the explanation but before the test dog, ran back to air the pup. Came to the line shaking. Pup got 9's and 10's for marking but would not deliver to hand. Fast forward two years, learned a lot since then, running Master tests now but still remember how nervous and confused I was. It would have been better to have seen a few others run first. I wouldn't want to do that to any newcomer if avoidable.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Hint: The Marshall has a lot of sway over the running order. Don't bother the judges about such things. The Marshall may want to get some Pros out of the way first so they can go on to the higher stakes. Watch those pros closely to see how they line up their dogs. Take your time making sure your dog is really staring down that long memory bird and not lined up for the very attractive Flyer Go Bird station. 

Good luck!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

There is only one reason that the *FT Committee represented by the Marshall *can legally alter the running order as drawn or drawn then rotated....
It is that such a departure would expedite the running of the trial ..........

john


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Arnie said:


> First AKC Junior test for both me and my dog. Dog not FF @ 7 months old. We were supposed to run second but the pro in first position was at another venue. Had to run first. After the explanation but before the test dog, ran back to air the pup. Came to the line shaking. Pup got 9's and 10's for marking but would not deliver to hand. Fast forward two years, learned a lot since then, running Master tests now but still remember how nervous and confused I was. It would have been better to have seen a few others run first. I wouldn't want to do that to any newcomer if avoidable.



Very well stated. First time newbie should have the choice I believe. I see pros jump ahead in HT all the time no questions asked. Do you think a pro would let a newbie change spots? Hmmmmm.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

this guy is talking about a FT . Going for blue , not orange. It is different.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Take what you get and run what you brung!


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> this guy is talking about a FT . Going for blue , not orange. It is different.


I agree with Bridget. Unless a pro is at the Derby and needs to run early to get to the Open, the #1 in the draw should run first. The time to observe research the mechanics of running at a trial are at a previous trial. Once entered, you have to play by the rules. Running at a trial is a lot different than running a first JH.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

there you go....play by the rules...lol...compared to all the other sleazy cheating that goes on at trials i'd let you run 1st or last.....big deal..be realistic...all depends who you are and how competitive you are...


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

As usual Randy nailed it. You can also rest assured that the running order had been carefully manipulated prior to the catalog getting printed.

All the same just remember - dogs dog, handlers handle and judges judge. Just step up and do your best.

The only reason they even give you a number is so they know where to write down the results regards

Bubba


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Steve Shaver said:


> First is not a bad place for a first time young dog. No drag back scent. Unless he has learned to run through drag back young dog in it's first trial can get stopped dead in his tracks with drag back


Good to go,------ YOU OWN IT.!!!!!!!!!!!
Keith


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> there you go....play by the rules...lol...compared to all the other sleazy cheating that goes on at trials i'd let you run 1st or last.....big deal..be realistic...all depends who you are and how competitive you are...


no kidding. The noob hasn't got much of a chance regardless, besides the order been picked already ahead of time, why not let the new guy run when he feels better. 

/Paul


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> no kidding. The noob hasn't got much of a chance regardless, besides the order been picked already ahead of time, why not let the new guy run when he feels better.
> 
> /Paul


Let's perpetuate some urban myths. When the draw was done by the FTS manipulation was possible. With a random computer draw manipulation is almost impossible, I am not sure if Paul, Randy, and the bull guy have been a FTS but I have and if manipulation was possible it would be for the new guy not against him, so I am calling BS on the conspiracy theory advocates!


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

My post had nothing to do with the manipulation of the running order...read it again ed...you been around a loooong time and know EXACTLY what I mean...


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> Let's perpetuate some urban myths. When the draw was done by the FTS manipulation was possible. With a random computer draw manipulation is almost impossible, I am not sure if Paul, Randy, and the bull guy have been a FTS but I have and if manipulation was possible it would be for the new guy not against him, so I am calling BS on the conspiracy theory advocates!


I've been to a goat roping and a FT AAaaaaaannnnnnnnnDDDDddd been a HTS many times- before and after EE. Here to tell you that it is not only possible but extremely convenient to change the EE suggested draw. Even EE adjusts the random draw to ensure that dogs with the same handler are spaced several dogs apart.

At the end of the day- it don't matter. Try as hard as desired, Lady Luck decides the outcome often enough.

It ain't a myth - I have data regards

Bubba


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> you been around a loooong time and know EXACTLY what I mean...


Some might think too long but long enough to know that whether you are a rookie or a veteran you should display sportsmanship and run your dog when you are supposed to run your dog. In the recent past I ran my three dogs in the first 10 in a 45 dog Amateur but no one seemed to care about the dogs who weren't there but should have been.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bubba said:


> I've been to a goat roping and a FT AAaaaaaannnnnnnnnDDDDddd been a HTS many times- before and after EE. Here to tell you that it is not only possible but extremely convenient to change the EE suggested draw. Even EE adjusts the random draw to ensure that dogs with the same handler are spaced several dogs apart.
> 
> At the end of the day- it don't matter. Try as hard as desired, Lady Luck decides the outcome often enough.
> 
> ...


Well maybe things are different in the Pacific Northwest, not on my circuit or Blake's from Arkansas


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

People will always find ways to game the system. They use loopholes in the rules or count on the fact nobody will report them. Running order can be manipulated but frankly that's a crap shoot to say its beneficial.

/Paul


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## dinaperugini (Jun 4, 2012)

I haven't been on this forum much (more active on the CBR forum), so don't know if the tone of the replies to this post are typical, but here's a point of view from a newbie, that some of the previous posters to this thread may want to consider. (Or maybe you'll all tell me to stick it...)

I'm a new handler, with my first dog, who competed in my first derby today. Over the last 16 months, to learn about the sport, I joined 2 local clubs and volunteered to marshal at about 8 events, field trials and hunt tests. I am VERY happy that no one I came across ever tried to tell me that things were fixed or that cheating was common, or that newbies didn't stand a chance. I likely would have walked away before I ever started. 

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but where I've been, I have heard a lot of folks talking about how they need to get new and younger people interested in the sport so it doesn't die out. Making new folks think they don't stand a chance sure isn't a way to get them interested!

From my personal perspective only, I've got to say, that my experience has been nothing but postive from the folks I've come across so far. I know there are bad eggs in every game, but I have to say that at my first trial this weekend, to a person, including other handlers, pros and amateurs alike, and judges, people could not have been more encouraging, helpful and supportive.

After a less-than-stellar first outing (due to inexperienced handler more than anything), if I had been hearing things like I read in some of the comments above, I might have just thrown in the towel. Instead, I walked away from the trial this weekend with a load of determination, lots of good, helpful advice, and hopefully some new friends met along the way.

If, being new, I misread the tone of the comments (not all of them) above, my sincere apologies. If not, then you might want to think in the future when answering an honest question from a newbie, who is just looking for information and advice, to be less caustic and more straighforward in answering.

To the folks who took the time to give a thoughtful reply to this question, thanks from another newbie, even though this wasn't my question. It's nice to know there are people out there willing to give sound advice to those of us newbies out here who are willing to listen and learn!

PS- the reason I opened this post tonight was because of the title 'first time and first dog', since as a newbie I was curious to see what other newbies are asking about...


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Really hard pressed to see where you got the idea that the whole game was rigged and a first timer didn't stand a chance. Speculation that the running order might not be completely random? The OP asked if it might be possible to run later in the order so that he might observe and learn. The upshot of the conversation that I saw was that maybe the running order wasn't completely random but that in the greater scheme of things it really isn't that important. If you gleaned additional information from the posts - that is YOUR issue. Bottom line is that some poor dumbass is going to be dog #1 and that ain't all bad.

Might not be completely random but run yer dawg anyway regards

Bubba


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

dinaperugini said:


> I haven't been on this forum much (more active on the CBR forum), so don't know if the tone of the replies to this post are typical, but here's a point of view from a newbie, that some of the previous posters to this thread may want to consider. (Or maybe you'll all tell me to stick it...)
> 
> I'm a new handler, with my first dog, who competed in my first derby today. Over the last 16 months, to learn about the sport, I joined 2 local clubs and volunteered to marshal at about 8 events, field trials and hunt tests. I am VERY happy that no one I came across ever tried to tell me that things were fixed or that cheating was common, or that newbies didn't stand a chance. I likely would have walked away before I ever started.
> 
> ...


A lot of truth, here! And this has been my experience as a new person to the sport as well. The reality at a hunt test or field trial is much much different than that here on RTF. Not that I don't love RTF, but there is a lot of sarcasm and myth telling to weed through some days. 

As for following the rules in the strictest sense. It's a Derby! It a first timer, there's a well seasoned pro running number 3. Let the pro, who needs to get over to the Open (oh yeah and to facilitate the running of the trial), run before the newbie, so he has at least two dogs to watch and at least 3 minutes to go barf behind his truck before it's his turn. Geeze o Peat. 

If the rules were to be strictly adhered to in a Derby, I and 1000 other first timers would be thrown out of the first series for talking to their dog, or patting their leg between birds or having their dog take off half a second before being sent. Judges know when the person and dog are first timers and that they need some advice and lee way to keep the experience a good one. So many judges let so many first time idiots skate on errors like that for a very good reason. 

Why not let Danny Farmer run his dog first and let his guy go second? I think Mr Farmer can handle it...


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I think that in addition to being allowed to run when they want to, they should be allowed a handle or two....

john


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## dinaperugini (Jun 4, 2012)

Bubba said:


> Really hard pressed to see where you got the idea that the whole game was rigged and a first timer didn't stand a chance. Speculation that the running order might not be completely random? The OP asked if it might be possible to run later in the order so that he might observe and learn. The upshot of the conversation that I saw was that maybe the running order wasn't completely random but that in the greater scheme of things it really isn't that important. If you gleaned additional information from the posts - that is YOUR issue. Bottom line is that some poor dumbass is going to be dog #1 and that ain't all bad.
> 
> Might not be completely random but run yer dawg anyway regards
> 
> Bubba


Pardon me if I offended anyone, but I pretty clearly stated that since I'm new, maybe I misinterpreted. And, I never said I thought the whole game was rigged. However, being new, I think when someone reads statements like yours talking about the manipulation of the running order, or of Randy's talking about the sleazy cheating that goes on at trials, it's not unreasonable for a new person to question whether you are being serious in your replies. I also understand what the original post was asking. I never commented one way or another about the changing of the running order, just on a newbies impression of the tone of the replies. Well, back to Team Chesapeake where they seem to be more 'user-friendly' for newbies. Oh, and if it matters, I ran in the order I was drawn today. I agree that you take what you're given.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Hmm..... To my group.... Which excuse number does this fall under... 655??? lol- chuckles tonight.. 

run the dog and worry about the stuff which matters. If it doesn't go well, don't make excuses about it. Go train a dog.


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## dinaperugini (Jun 4, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore;1148186
run the dog and worry about the stuff which matters. If it doesn't go well said:


> I agree with you, Paul! ;-)
> 
> I was just trying to say that as a new person, you hope you can go to forums like this to ask an honest question and get some straightforward replies. I understand sarcasm and wit, but it'd be nice if a new person who is just seeking information or trying to learn, could get information without having to wade through a pile of crap. I think sometimes people forget that they were new and clueless once, too!
> 
> (Give those brown beasts a rub behind the ears from me!)


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

dinaperugini said:


> I agree with you, Paul! ;-)
> 
> I was just trying to say that as a new person, you hope you can go to forums like this to ask an honest question and get some straightforward replies. I understand sarcasm and wit, but it'd be nice if a new person who is just seeking information or trying to learn, could get information without having to wade through a pile of crap. I think sometimes people forget that they were new and clueless once, too!
> 
> (Give those brown beasts a rub behind the ears from me!)


You definitely don't need forum replies...lol. You have a few of the top amateurs in the nation to guide you along. yip-yip! lol!!! Folks who have been to the National and own dogs that have titles that no lab will ever likely achieve. I'll just say it- no lab will ever achieve. hahahahaaa!!!


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## dinaperugini (Jun 4, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> You definitely don't need forum replies...lol. You have a few of the top amateurs in the nation to guide you along. yip-yip! lol!!! Folks who have been to the National and own dogs that have titles that no lab will ever likely achieve. I'll just say it- no lab will ever achieve. hahahahaaa!!!



Ain't that the truth??!!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> You definitely don't need forum replies...lol. You have a few of the top amateurs in the nation to guide you along. yip-yip! lol!!! Folks who have been to the National and own dogs that have titles that no lab will ever likely achieve. I'll just say it- no lab will ever achieve. hahahahaaa!!!


For the record it took a week to get the chessie smell out of my clothes last time I stayed at your house. I voted to let them run later. 

/Paul


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Its the derby. What are you going to learn by watching a few dogs? Can't handle. Take your time line up the dog and go. You should know your dog and what you need to do to help him see and remember the birds. Past that he's either gonna mark em or he isn't. Running first assures only 1 only flier to scent the area so you're not comma get a short or long flier fall. I ran my first one this spring. Didn't matter to me when in the order.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

It wasnt a deby,, but,, I remember when I ran my first UKC Finished test. I was dog 1.. A very seasoned handelr and a Great representative of that HRC game came up to me and said he would switch positions with me (he was dog 5) if ,, in the future I would remeber the gesture and pass it on..

I thought at the time , it was a very sportsmanship like thing to do. I appreciated it very much. He became a good friend of mine..


The derby I recently ran,, I was dead last! Dont know how that happened,,, but If someone placed me there so I could watch other dogs run,, well,, I appreciated that also...

First experiences are important in my opinion..

Most everyone I have come in contact with in the dog games are great people..

Even Dr Ed!!!

Gooser


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

EdA said:


> Well maybe things are different in the Pacific Northwest, not on my circuit or Blake's from Arkansas


Bubba doesn't run white coats. In the HT games, just a while back Bubba tried to kick me in the junk for noting all the folks in the PNW who write down their name next to a Pro plus another good buddy so they can sit in the gallery together. Folks whom don't have a dog on said Pro's truck nor do they travel with the other good buddy listed along side. Silly little games they play. As if it's too hard to stroll back to the truck and go see the other series/stake. Just cracks me up how silly it all is when you start looking closer at it. They act like it's imperative to have another handlers name on it in case some crazy hair brained happening occurs and someone else needs to run the dog.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't think the run order means too much in a HT. 
But since your running a FT the running order means a lot. The set up will change as the sun changes in the sky. Shadows mess with dogs, long gun does or don't stand out as the sun light changes. Drag back scent effects dogs in different ways. These are just a few factors that change as the set up progesses. That's why the run order is a blind draw and it's important to run in order as much as possible. 
This time your dog #1 next time maybe you'll be the beer dog, and wish you were running #1. 
Have fun and good luck.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Since I am currently running two younger dogs, I've probably run 25 or so minor stakes in the last two years. I have yet to have one run in the order of the draw,

If I was the Marshall, I would indure the wrath of John Fallon and ask someone that I knew well if they would consider running first so the newbie could have an extra dog to watch. I can understand how watching a few would help them get the flow of the test.

To the OP, in my experience, running your young dog early in a derby could be benefical when compared to having it sit in the truck for half a day listening to guns going off and all the other associated trumoil.

In a stake with blinds it might be a different story. It's really helpful for me to watch a bunch to see the potential trouble spots.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

All the suggestions to let a pro run first so he can get to the Open sounds good. Reality is that all the pros are already at the Open. This means that the people with a derby dog and no place to go are sitting at the derby. They will oftentimes run early regardless what their drawn number is.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Is it ethical for a pro to volunteer to run out of order? The pro has to answer to clients, who might not be thrilled to find out their dogs had to run early so a newb had a better chance of beating their dog.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Blake... I know it's your first derby and all that. Have you ever been to one as a spectator? I know you are young and gung-ho... I was once too. If you haven't ever watched any before, (even if you have) get there early. Get your dog aired out well and loosened up. Watch the test dog. 

Then, take your time! Get your dog and WALK to the holding blinds and line. Make your dog think its just another set of marks. He'll know it isn't because he will hear your heart beating. But try to stay calm anyway and keep him focused. When, I mean if he breaks... Remember to say heel or no or whatever it takes to stop him. You are allowed controlled breaks in derbies. Like Jen said... Get him to focus on the memory bird. He will see the flyer. 

After he gets the first bird, stay focused. You want to keep your whistle in your mouth and your eyes on your dog. Turn your back at your own risk. There is no time limit, so take your time when lining him upon the memory bird. Makes sure he is looking at it and not the flyer when you send him. 

Again, it's just two marks... But your dog will feed off of you. If you are tighter than a tick, the dog will be too. 

As for running order, who cares? If you are ready, it won't matter. Just go get them.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

huntinman said:


> Blake... I know it's your first derby and all that. Have you ever been to one as a spectator? I know you are young and gung-ho... I was once too. If you haven't ever watched any before, (even if you have) get there early. Get your dog aired out well and loosened up. Watch the test dog.
> 
> Then, take your time! Get your dog and WALK to the holding blinds and line. Make your dog think its just another set of marks. He'll know it isn't because he will hear your heart beating. But try to stay calm anyway and keep him focused. When, I mean if he breaks... Remember to say heel or no or whatever it takes to stop him. You are allowed controlled breaks in derbies. Like Jen said... Get him to focus on the memory bird. He will see the flyer.
> 
> ...


this thread really exploded more than i thought it would.


yes i have watched one as a spectator. but seeing as this my first time to step to any line be it HT or FT i dont really know what all goes on in those last 5-10 steps from the last holding blind to the line to calling for birds.

so if you are allowed a controlled break and he takes off and i say "heel" does that not count against you in the "no talking till they call your number" deal. 

i have decided i will not make mention to anyone of the first trial deal till _after_ we get put out/jam/place(ha) and just run my number. 

we've been running singles for about a week (pre-injury) mostly walking singles with remote sends (and me throwing for consistency v.s. a winger) i find i can get 8-10 singles v.s. 3-4 with wingers in the daylight after work. my question is i think it was Lardy who says pre-trial he usually does all singles. but should i chance it and do one day of doubles just as a refresher? its been like 2 mondays since he's seen a derby double. like say singles today, doubles tues, singles, wed, singles thurs, then day off/travel fri? 

i'm also thinking about doubling his food friday night and not feeding saturday morning (5am when i leave for trial at 10)? or would that just not be smart? he seems to do his best work on an empty stomach


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Blake, I too had trouble with the "controlled break" concept in the beginning. Look at it this way, if you DONT say heel, no, here, etc and the dog goes on to pick up the bird, you are eliminated automatically AND you have introduced a bad, bad habit to your dog. If you DO call him back before the point of no return, sure, it will be noted and scored accordingly. But assuming your dog nails the marks and nobody else in the field does without the controlled break, you still win!

As far as your training schedule, (singles vs doubles) I will let the more experienced answer. But I will answer the food question. I would never double my dogs' meal. That looks like real trouble. It will not hurt him to skip breakfast. Maybe just give him a taste of kibble for routines sake and then feed him when he is done for the day. With any luck, that will be his supper time!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Blake, Bill gave you some good advice. In a controlled break its pretty much expected that you get control, so don't worry about the talking aspect. Get him back, refocused and wait for your number. You mention the last few steps. Reality is you have the opportunity to start building good habits now. The test starts at the truck, build a good routine, stay focused and the dog under control. While in your first test you won't have any real dogs to watch other than test dog, get in the habit of using the holding blinds to build a game plan and get prepared for the different situations that may occur and have a mental plan on what you will do if that occurs. For example, often running early something mechanical goes wrong. Bird boys throw wrong, wingers hang up, flyers get missed etc. Be prepared mentally for how you will handle this. Think of the little things, like where am i going to put my leash. I've seen new folks mess around figuring out where to put the leash and lose control of the dog right there at the last holding blind. Go into it with a "I can win this attitude" however don't be unrealistic on the outcome. Remember to have fun and this is a journey. I guarantee the dog will. Many in this thread have done this for over 20+ years, in Ed's case perhaps twice that, so don't let that dampen your having fun. Go run your dog, learn, train, and repeat. 

/Paul


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

blake_mhoona said:


> yes i have watched one as a spectator. but seeing as this my first time to step to any line be it HT or FT i dont really know what all goes on in those last 5-10 steps from the last holding blind to the line to calling for birds.


In my experience, what's going on in those last few steps from the last holding blind to the line to calling for the birds is some combination of "OMG I didn't think about what to do if *that* happens" and "OMG that breakfast sure seems to be working on my lower intestine." Funny thing is I seem to go through this all over again each time I run a new HT classification for the first time. I can't wait to see what kind of physical agony I am in when I step to the line in a master level event. I have thought seriously about Xanax, and maybe one for the dog too!

I tried to use Joe Montana's advice of just trying to remember the fundamentals and just going through our routine from truck to holding blind to line to lining up to calling for the birds, but it is admittedly more difficult the first couple of times you do it. Just don't forget to breathe, and remember that you are still getting to hang out with your best buddy no matter what happens in the actual test.

Good luck!


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## dinaperugini (Jun 4, 2012)

huntinman said:


> Blake... I know it's your first derby and all that. Have you ever been to one as a spectator? I know you are young and gung-ho... I was once too. If you haven't ever watched any before, (even if you have) get there early. Get your dog aired out well and loosened up. Watch the test dog.
> 
> Then, take your time! Get your dog and WALK to the holding blinds and line. Make your dog think its just another set of marks. He'll know it isn't because he will hear your heart beating. But try to stay calm anyway and keep him focused. When, I mean if he breaks... Remember to say heel or no or whatever it takes to stop him. You are allowed controlled breaks in derbies. Like Jen said... Get him to focus on the memory bird. He will see the flyer.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Huntinman, this is great, simple advice! Pretty much what you described, except for the dog breaking, is everything I did wrong this weekend! First dog, first derby (I can't really say first FT, because I did run someone else's dog in two series of the amateur at our local club FT 2 weeks ago, to get some experience at the line.) and a new handler as nervous as can be! It was a long Open, so the Derby didn't start until late Saturday. After 5 dogs ran, they decided to scrap the test and restart Sunday morning. 

Now, I went to the trial with a friend, so my young dog was on a dog truck (not something she is used to) 4 full days before we got to run. Even though I worked her some each day, she was full of pent up energy. I was nervous, regardless of how many people told me to stay calm so the dog wouldn't feed off my nervous energy! She saw the first mark clearly, then the flyer went up. She gets the flyer, which isn't dead, which then jacks her up even more, and she returns to the line, shakes the thing to death and then starts dickin around. New handler gets incredibly flustered, since in the 3 Junior HT we ran this summer, the dog returned the bird to hand beautifully. I got so wound up over getting the bird from her, that I was WAY TOO FAST lining her up and sending her for the second mark and I did a crappy job of it. She headed back toward the flyer. I was lucky enough that there were 2 incredibly nice judges who knew it was my first time out. They told me to call her back in and said I could reline her and let her get the second mark. That time, I took my time to line her up and send her, and she went right to the mark. The judges let us run test dog for the next series, and since I was less nervous, I took more time at the line, and the dog did great. It was a good lesson learned for me, and hopefully, I will remember it when I get nervous our next time out!


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

mitty said:


> Is it ethical for a pro to volunteer to run out of order? The pro has to answer to clients, who might not be thrilled to find out their dogs had to run early so a newb had a better chance of beating their dog.


I do not think most pros think it is a disadvantage to run first at a derby. As mentioned previously, there is less drag back early. There is not a lot of strategy in running a derby. You just line your pup up and let 'em rip. 

I have never heard anyone, client or gallery, complain that it was not ethical for a pro to run early. Their livelyhoods depend on success at what ever level they run.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

At most derbies, there will be pros at the open who will run out of order later in the derby. However, there likely will be pros who will run by the derby to get the first series out of the way and then go to the open. There will also be some folks who want to run early in the derby to get it out of the way but not until there is a little scent on the ground so they will sandbag slightly and then show up at the derby and ask the marshal to fit them in.

Typically if you are dog 1, you have a very good chance of the marshal asking you to run further back. However, if you don't run first, you may run even further back. Still, there is no harm in asking if you want to watch a few. Most folks will be very helpful to the newcomer.

If you run first, though, don't sweat it. My very first field trial was a Q with no rotation. I was dog 1 and ran first all but the water blind and we did fine.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Russ said:


> I do not think most pros think it is a disadvantage to run first at a derby. As mentioned previously, there is less drag back early. There is not a lot of strategy in running a derby. You just line your pup up and let 'em rip.
> 
> I have never heard anyone, client or gallery, complain that it was not ethical for a pro to run early. Their livelyhoods depend on success at what ever level they run.


Thanks, Russ.

I was thinking of it from a different point of view. The OP believes he will do better if he runs later. What if the advantage he gains, by getting special treatment, is great enough that he places? That placement might cost a dog on the pro's truck a ribbon.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

Speaking from the perspective of a newbie and someone who has marshaled several trials now (all stakes except the open, multiple times) there are plenty of instances where dog #1 doesn't run first in the first series. Sometimes if the derby is on Friday, they will start the open an hour later and instruct all pros and people running the open and the derby both to show up at the derby first. The marshal is then instructed to run those dogs first. Same thing will happen if the derby is the same start time as the Am. Many times dog #1 will end up running as dog 7 or 8. However, this generally applies only in the first series. When the second series starts, you usually end up running in order with the dogs that are there and work everyone else in as they filter in. Many times, it pays to run earlier (no dragback as others have mentioned, cooler temperatures, better sun position, etc) Regardless, the marshal controls the running order at the trial itself, not the judges. Run your dog when your number is called and try not to give a marshal much grief. It is one of the more difficult jobs at a trial. I recently started shooting fliers and would rather do that any day. Good luck to you and your dog!


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

i will add too, as a newbie volunteer to help out! A trial is a TON of work to put on and goes much more smoothly when people help. You're help will be much appreciated. It's a good way to get to know people too.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

Jamee Strange said:


> Speaking from the perspective of a newbie and someone who has marshaled several trials now (all stakes except the open, multiple times) there are plenty of instances where dog #1 doesn't run first in the first series. Sometimes if the derby is on Friday, they will start the open an hour later and instruct all pros and people running the open and the derby both to show up at the derby first. The marshal is then instructed to run those dogs first. Same thing will happen if the derby is the same start time as the Am. Many times dog #1 will end up running as dog 7 or 8. However, this generally applies only in the first series. When the second series starts, you usually end up running in order with the dogs that are there and work everyone else in as they filter in. Many times, it pays to run earlier (no dragback as others have mentioned, cooler temperatures, better sun position, etc) Regardless, the marshal controls the running order at the trial itself, not the judges. Run your dog when your number is called and try not to give a marshal much grief. It is one of the more difficult jobs at a trial. I recently started shooting fliers and would rather do that any day. Good luck to you and your dog!


the derby starts at 10am and the am starts at 8 so i assume they started the derby late to allow all the pros to come over and run then get back in time for callbacks at open.


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## dinaperugini (Jun 4, 2012)

Jamee Strange said:


> i will add too, as a newbie volunteer to help out! A trial is a TON of work to put on and goes much more smoothly when people help. You're help will be much appreciated. It's a good way to get to know people too.


This is great advice! Not only do most clubs need and appreciate the help, but it's a great way for a newbie to learn. I marshalled several events before actually ever running my dog, and I learned a ton from just watching and listening. Also met a lot of people, who once they learned I was new, were there to offer a lot of hints, tips, advice and moral support!


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Run first, that way when you return home and everyone asks about the trial you can answer them honestly and say "I was in first place for a while". 

Lonnie Spann


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

This was just a passing point you made but it caught my eye:
_i'm also thinking about doubling his food friday night and not feeding saturday morning (5am when i leave for trial at 10)? or would that just not be smart? he seems to do his best work on an empty stomach 
_

I would NOT double his food the night before, especially if that is not part of your usual routine. I would stick with your normal feeding regime, perhaps modifying the morning feeding to be a little lighter on competitive days. 

To do a wholesale change of the dog's feeding schedule is going to create more stress if the dog isn't used to this.. Dogs thrive on routine. I would be extraordinarily careful about *doubling* any competitive labrador's foodshare at one time. Actually any lab, competing or not. 

You're already going to be stressed out, which I firmly believe a dog picks up on. Don't add to it by altering the normal way you do things "on game day". 

Good luck, interesting thread.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

3blackdogs said:


> This was just a passing point you made but it caught my eye:
> _i'm also thinking about doubling his food friday night and not feeding saturday morning (5am when i leave for trial at 10)? or would that just not be smart? he seems to do his best work on an empty stomach
> _
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Good point, Lydia.. 

If I had the clip board, and the OP asked me to let him run later, I would ask for a volunteer to run first. Mostly, I won't get one. Doesn't hurt to ask, though..
Likely, the OP will have to run first. Not bumping someone up with a later number. Unless they want to be bumped.
Then, just run in order for the dogs that are there. Fit the pros in as they show up.

One thing I have done recently. Put in premium that minor stakes are allowed to rotate.
That way, at least the nervous noob won't have to run first, every series.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

cakaiser said:


> I agree with this. Good point, Lydia..
> 
> If I had the clip board, and the OP asked me to let him run later, I would ask for a volunteer to run first. Mostly, I won't get one. Doesn't hurt to ask, though..
> Likely, the OP will have to run first. Not bumping someone up with a later number. Unless they want to be bumped.
> ...


If he were to run first (or at all) in every series of his first derby... He would be doing pretty darn good. Hope he does it! 

It's happened before. Have a good friend who twenty years ago upon winning the first derby he ever saw asked "what color ribbon do we get for that?!!!" That guy is now running a little choc female that is pretty well known.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> If I had the clip board, and the OP asked me to let him run later, I would ask for a volunteer to run first.


If You asked for volunteers to run first, and I had two dogs entered, lets say dog 4 and dog 29 ,would you let me run my 29 dog first?

john


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> If You asked for volunteers to run first, and I had two dogs entered, lets say dog 4 and dog 29 ,would you let me run my 29 dog first?
> 
> john


still have to run in order don't you?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> still have to run in order don't you?


I don't know, Do you ?? This whole thread is about running out of order, and 32 people that answered the poll seem to be saying that you do not.......

john


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

john fallon said:


> I don't know, Do you ?? This whole thread is about running out of order, and 32 people that answered the poll seem to be saying that you do not.......
> 
> john


From the AKC Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures:
(c) If a handler with multiple entries in a stake runs one of those entries in an order different than the order required by the draw, the draw as rotated, a departure from the draw mandated by paragraphs (a) or (b) of this Section 4, or a departure from the draw ocasioned by a rerun, and the Judges determine that this departure from the order of the draw was a deliberate effort by the handler to gain an unfair advantage, the Judges shall eliminate that dog from the stake and shall ask the Event Committe to conduct an investigation of the handler’s conduct. In all other instances of such a departure from the order of the draw, the departure shall be treated as an honest error and no penalty imposed.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Earlier in the rule book on the same subject...

Insofar as practicable dogs shall be run in the order of the draw, or in the order of the draw as rotated in stakes carrying championship points; provided that departures from the order of the draw are permitted:
(a) When in the opinion of the Judges or the Field Trail Committee such will result in a reasonable or desirable saving of time in the conduct of the trial, provided, however, that whenever decisions regard- ing a change in the running order will affect two or more stakes, the Field Trial Marshal may overrule the judges and/or the stake marshal and make the final decision as to such changes in the running order, if any, or — This subsection contemplates that the Field Trial Committee will be responsible for providing effective means of communication between and among the stakes so that decisions about departures from the order of the draw that have an impact on more than one stake can be made, and conflicts resolved, with proper attention to the priori- ties among stakes and to the overall needs of the trial. The authority of the Field Trial Committee to make the final decision on departures from the running order in one stake which may adversely impact another stake shall be exercised by the Field Trial Marshal.
(b) When in the opinion of the Judges such will avoid unfairness or prejudice to any competing dog resulting from an event which has occurred in the particular stake.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> If You asked for volunteers to run first, and I had two dogs entered, lets say dog 4 and dog 29 ,would you let me run my 29 dog first?
> 
> john


if this was a trick question and the starting number of the draw was 28 you would run 29 first


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> if this was a trick question and the starting number of the draw was 28 you would run 29 first


Derbies do not use the Dow, so the first dog to run is #1. A club could change that, but I have not seen it.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Please let me run first, that way if I'm out; I can leave or maybe even go to one of those places (I think they call restaurants), btw series; and not get suckered into starting the day throwing birds, shooting birds, moving things around etc. which always seems to happen regardless of what number I get drawn, or where I'm running


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Russ said:


> Derbies do not use the Dow, so the first dog to run is #1. A club could change that, but I have not seen it.


missed that- did use it for a Qual recently up here.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Based on the information posted by Bill Davis in posts 63 and 64 ( the rules regarding the running order/draw), If both the OP and I are at the Derby, and we have no other place to be, I can no more volunteer to run my dog #4 ahead of dog #3,2, and 1 than I can to run my dog # 29.......

john


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

just and update. test ran a little late because of downpour the night before we had to relocate and find new grounds. ended up having to run first and second series back to back. small hunt on flyer. medium sized hunt on memory. inital line was to gunner then swung left about 20 yards out to bird. invited to run second series "super" single. got a no bird. came back up and ran it large hunt. got called back to the third that started on sunday. broke on the go bird. it was thrown from the point towards the main shore on side of hill. would of picked him up normally but called him back since we have the history of no-go. i still want to keep his confidence up. released him of course he didnt mark it well because of the break. hunted 2-3 minutes finally put him on the bird because he was getting back in the water behind the gun and i saw him look over at that memory mark and just thought he was going to switch.

the judge that i knew said afterwards let your dog hunt your not training your trialing. i said yea i was just nervous about a switch and besides i shouldnt of even sent him on the go-bird.

all in all my goal was for him not to return to the flyer station in the first and to make it past first so i was happy.

in other news i was stuck in some of the thickest oklahoma red clay for an hour and half 15 mins before the test was supposed to start (prior to me finding out it was delayed). the grounds changed and i was still following EE directions. luckily they were able to get a tractor to pull me out. then my engine blew rod/crankshaft/piston about 30 mins after i left yesterday and had to have one of my training buddies take me into OKC to get a UHaul car dolly (where they raped me on the price) then go back to my car. load it up and make the 7 hour trip back. getting it off the dolly was even more fun. it took an extension cord (didnt have chain or straps) wrapped around my back bumper and my brother in law pulling it off with his truck. 

the 4runner is kaput. luckily that means im getting a truck this afternoon and hopefully a dog box in next year or so (still waiting to let the wife know on that one)

and i'll be back at it next week


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Wow!!!
what a story!
What a weekend!
Made it to the 3rd series in your first trial and are getting a truck and a box!!!
you are so hooked. your life is forever changed!

slippery slope regards


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

blake,
congrats on making it to the third in your first trial. keep up the hard work, you got a lot of derby time left if i remember correctly!

sorry about the truck.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Yes Blake quite a story but you did it. Congrats! You will remember your first trial for sure!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

So did ya run first or not????? Maybe I missed that part!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Blake, I'm a little worried about you. You seem to be involved in more than your fair share of accidents... Some even involve your pooch. I wonder if your are somehow related to the Mayhem guy from the Allstate commercials? It sort of has a nice ring to it... Blake "Mayhem" Mhoon;.-)


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Once you hit enter on EE to enter your dog, you no longer are a newbie. You should have understood being #1 is always a possibility. Sure, for test logistics Pros get shuffled around to keep dogs running, rarely is dog #1 moved back. Someone needs to start the test. If multiple dog and stake handlers are not moved around, you spend 2 hrs in the rain waiting for two dogs to close a series, the help, the judges and the other handlers do not appreciate this.

I have an issue where the #1 dog calls ahead and says they have car problems when I am #2. As #2 I am on time and sitting in the holding blind ready to run. I know its highly likely they are late because ..... it was intentional ???. I walk up to each test with a "let's do this" attitude, #1, #12 or #45, move me around for whomever, whatever works for the test. The test has to start sometime, negotiating out of the number one spot would be looked down on, "click enter" just run it, be ready for drawing #1, and 2 and 3.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

2tall said:


> So did ya run first or not????? Maybe I missed that part!


yes i did. i thought when i got stuck in the mud i was gonna miss out (as i said earlier i became excited about #1 thinking that i would get less flier scent). but the test was delayed till noon because having to find new grounds after the downpour at that point (then eventually again till 2:30 because of lack of an ATV)

and yes bill i'm beginning to think that too. although my last name is Mhoon pronounced "moon". common mistake. silly hungarian ancestors. the a at the end is my first initial

this weekend i'll be rolling to the double derby in my new tacoma i purchased this afternoon. but till then i see some "refresher" courses in OB in our future. he was a maniac till he stepped on the mat. then it was just another setup. 

prolly will also work on some short in your face marks to get that break taken care of.

for the double derby this weekend got dead last at one and #7 on the other


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Good luck with the derbies this weekend. 

Slow and steady... 

Sorry about misspelling your last name!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

blake_mhoona said:


> ... my last name is Mhoon pronounced "moon". common mistake. silly hungarian ancestors. the a at the end is my first initial....


 is Blake your pup?


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

moose is the pup. A. Blake Mhoon

you got to get to know me real well before i'll let you know what the A stands for. its a 5 generation family name but no one really goes by it


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

blake_mhoona said:


> moose is the pup. A. Blake Mhoon
> 
> you got to get to know me real well before i'll let you know what the A stands for. its a 5 generation family name but no one really goes by it


Well Antall looks like a popular one. Followed closely by Acs or Ats. Then it drops quite a ways down to Ambrus... These are on a popularity list... Maybe yours is more unique? 

No matter what, it pretty neat that your family has kept the tradition alive for 5 generations. In my family, the first son has had the same initials every generation on my dads side going all the way back to when the lived in Wales in the 1700's. my grandmother was a genealogy buff and traced it all the way back. Some of the names changed over the years... But the initials have always been the same for that first son. I wasn't about to break the string.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

must be like Lanse Brown, he has an A name as well


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> must be like Lanse Brown, he has an A name as well


I've had a few dogs with those at times...


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