# Reinforcing the dog's behavior



## tazman7 (Dec 8, 2011)

I bought the Smartworks training program from a guy on here awhile back and it seems the more I watch it, the more I dont care for it. In the obedience video when they are teaching the dogs to heel, the dogs look scared to death!!! They are crouching down with their tail between their legs. I know that I am new to training, and Evan obviously knows his stuff, but I want my dog to remain happy and not end up like the dogs in the video (petrified). Is there another training program that does more of a positive training regimine? (I hope I dont sound like a Sally..


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

PM Evan here and talk to him about it. I'm sure he'll see this thread and maybe help you. I found the program very easy to follow when i first started messing with dogs and effective in making a good dog for a beginner.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

No offense to Evan, I have respect for the guy, but I had the same reaction. I too am more "positive" oriented. So, I took a cue from another guy who is training his dog with mainly pos reinforcement, but using the Mike Lardy program called Total Retriever Training and Total Retriever Marking - only without the compulsion component of forcing to pile, to water, etc. While the dogs in that video series are also a bit jerked around, the overall approach seems more "teaching" oriented and less compulsion, shock, hit oriented. And Mike says on his web site that you can easily use his program without the e-collar, if you want to. Mike also emphasizes over and over again that you need to really think about what the dog is thinking and seeing and feeling, before you decide to punish it. I ordered his TRT and TRM series which come with follow along booklets. To help pay for it, I sold my Smart Works set here on RTF. 

I know lots of people really like Smartworks and Evan's approach. I think it's a matter of taste. 

Also want to put a plug in again for the book Building A Retriever by Carol Cassity. It's a book of drills for holding blind manner, line manners and marking drills for beginner to advanced. stuff that lardy and graham only touch on.

Jennifer


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I guess that's why I like buying the books.  We've done very well w/ Smartworks/Smartfetch here. Lardy videos left me w/a bad feeling at the time years ago for the same reason, so maybe what you can't see is good!


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## Hairy Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

Wow, I thought Evan to be very fair & balanced with his approach to training. I also found it extremely easy to follow, with results that I never imagined possible when I began. I guess there's just a whole different perspective as to what's appropriate when it comes to training. As for my dog, he's not at all a scared, tail tucking, croucher. He's feisty, hard driving, & loves to do his job. When I get his E-collar out, he jumps up & down, cuts a few tight circles, then runs up to me in a front facing sit, while wagging his tail....I mean nub.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Hairy Dawg said:


> As for my dog, he's not at all a scared, tail tucking, .


really? LOL.....


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## Hairy Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

BlaineT said:


> really? LOL.....


Hehe. Yea, all 2" of it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't follow Smartworks but have friends that do and they really like it. As to tail between the legs, some dogs wag their tails when walking and others walk with their tails down. It doesn't have anything to do with being scared. My Jack was like that, he was a tail down dog. But was as happy as he could be.


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## Tim Fitzgerald (Jan 22, 2009)

I have farmer and TRT...., and Evan. There are parts of evan's basics that I didnt care for only because he utilized an assistant which I dont have, Buuuuuut, I do have to hand it to evan, at least in his transition cd, he uses a dog that is not QAA unlike Lardy and Farmer....

For me this was a better teaching tool as I was able to learn more about how to correct a dog that is making mistakes while handling. I kinda like Evans old school no nonsense authoritative approach....I didnt even notice the dog with its tail between its legs..As far as that goes, I would tend to agree with wayne nutt


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

i have a great deal of respect for any knowledgeable trainer who writes a book or make a video about dog training; it's very difficult and time consuming. As many novice trainers already know, there are many different approaches to training a dog. if you do not have the stomach for a particular system, by all means seek out another training method that you consider fun---training your dog should be fun! Personally, i'm with Evan, i don't believe in asking a dog to perform a command. if the dog chooses to put his tail between his legs, so be it--I'll work on relationship after the animal learns his skills. 
GG


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Also every dog is different and how they all handle being trained. Some dogs like basic obed. some hate it. 
Don't read so much into it.
I'm with GG.
Sue


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## Mark (Jun 13, 2003)

Set a reminder in your calendar for 5 or 10 years and refresh this thread with your opinion at that time. Once you have put a few different dogs through various programs you will appreciate his program a little better.

Not many of the all positive trainers are around in the retriever games 5 or 10 years later.

Mark


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I respect and appreciate honest feedback, even when something negative is perceived. I only have a few things to add that may be helpful here.

1. The first time a worried, or "bugged" dog appears on the Obedience DVD is in Chapter 12; "Heel & Sit". The very beginning dialogue states, "Don't be afraid to see a bit of bugging in your dog when we begin to use pressure." The dog shown was _not_ selected because she was a best-case show peice, but rather was an exceptionally soft, buggy-type. She not only allowed us to show a dog bugging, but also some of the ways we deal with it when it comes up. 

Many programs use fully trained dogs for basic work, and also show best case dogs that merely demonstrate what the work can look like in a case where nothing goes wrong. In real life something _always_ goes wrong, the dogs don't begin training in a fully-trained state, and the student trainer _isn't_ a pro. I chose dogs that were actually _at_ the point of training being shown, and some that were tricky to train and keep a good attitude. Having the student trainer see those things also allows them to see how we handle it when many of the same things come up that will come up for real people. That's why we used her. She ended basics a happy, and far more stable dog.

2. If you're producing bugged dogs by following Smartwork, you'll probably produce bugged dogs while following any other sound program. The program is a guide. The end result is a produced by the trainer, in combination with the individual dog. Some trainers, and some dogs don't make good teams.

3. A key advantage of the program is that you can reach me anytime - here on RTF (PM's work very well), or by email. Our email address and phone # are listed on each page of our site. Just in case, it's [email protected] ... 816-213-9397.

Give yourself a chance. If you have questions, email, call, PM. All are better choices than throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm always happy to help.

Thanks to all who have participated. Very good information.

Evan


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

If you carefully study (not go get a sandwich in between) each of the various basic programs they are for the most part the same. Basics are basics , nothing is original, all take from each other. Force fetch is the foundation for the e-collar program etc. When it jumps up the next level (buzz words transition or whatever) it does change sometimes with the various programs. What is a constant are two elements, the dogs/breed, the perfect world if everything is followed to the letter and the particular dog as the correct "happy" personality. The more dogs you train as someone suggested the easier it gets and the more personalities you will encounter. We are not making "widgets" in dog training thats why the pros sometimes do so well with the dogs, the more you see the better you get and the more you can modify the training to fit the needs.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I want to reiterate that I think Evan deserves a LOT of respect! I think he made a great product and for him to be available by phone or email is the highest form of customer service!!! 

If I evaluate my experience with it honestly, I think I was turned off for these reasons:
1. I had no idea that compulsion training was the norm and couldn't imagine myself succeeding with compulsion training.
2. It was my first exposure to compulsion training

Fast forward 3 years and add in lots of RTF reading and having joined a positive training forum. A guy on that other forum was having success following Lardy's DVDs, but without compulsion. So I bought them and really liked the approach - but admittedly, was viewing them through a totally different brain filter than I had when I first viewed SmartWorks.

Jennifer


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Maybe pick up the Positive Gun Dog book, Clicker training for sporting breeds by Karen Pryor?


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## Quackwacker (Aug 16, 2011)

Sounds like you might benefit from the Wild Rose Way! Just saying!


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## smd13 (Apr 30, 2011)

I followed Smartworks this year and my lab earned her HR title after following his Transition DVDs and the Smartworks books. Her demeanor never changed, still happy, happy, happy.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

tazman7 said:


> I bought the Smartworks training program from a guy on here awhile back and it seems the more I watch it, the more I dont care for it. In the obedience video when they are teaching the dogs to heel, the dogs look scared to death!!! They are crouching down with their tail between their legs. I know that I am new to training, and Evan obviously knows his stuff, but I want my dog to remain happy and not end up like the dogs in the video (petrified). Is there another training program that does more of a positive training regimine? (I hope I dont sound like a Sally..



Look into Bill Hillmann. Very easy, very positive, very fun. And still recognizes the value of the ecollar.

For non ecollar Robert Milner and The Wildrose Way.

www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Maybe pick up the Positive Gun Dog book, Clicker training for sporting breeds by Karen Pryor?


Not sure the book is by Pryor. This is a good book and has good info in it. A problem is the clicker method won't work for those longish blinds.IMO 
Off topic K. Pryor has a good book "Don't Shoot the dog". Great reading.

IMO I think you have to pick a program that suits you and your dog, be comfortable with the program and stay with it.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

In all fairness I am a buyer, got more stuff on my counter than most and love them all. On the flip side I bought a pizza from a place last week and hated it. Only bought it because others said it was good. No matter I got fed and digested it.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Not sure the book is by Pryor. This is a good book and has good info in it. A problem is the clicker method won't work for those longish blinds.IMO
> Off topic K. Pryor has a good book "Don't Shoot the dog". Great reading.
> 
> IMO I think you have to pick a program that suits you and your dog, be comfortable with the program and stay with it.


It is the Karen Pryor series. Jim Barry, Mary Emmen and Susan Smith's names are credited. Reading through it is interesting. They poo-poo Evan G and Amy D for their "pressure techniques"...lol..


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Asking a serious question here for my possible edification and evolution as a trainer: if there is no compulsion or force to your training, how do you handle a refusal situation?

I am using TRT by Lardy. I set up a drill this AM to start reacclimating my dog to decoys. Basically running to a pile with decoys off the line on either side. First two sends he goes straight at decoy closest to the pile, and I whistle stop him and handle him to the pile. Third send he heads the same way. I stop him again and call him back to the line. I send again and give him a back-nick-back on a level 2. He straightens right out and doesn't go for the decoys again. The FTP concept was there to get him corrected and remind him that he needs to go straight where he is sent regardless of distractions. 

How would you handle this situation without the FTP background? Keep in mind I am honestly asking, and there may absolutely be a simple answer that I just haven't been exposed to. 



Jhenion said:


> I want to reiterate that I think Evan deserves a LOT of respect! I think he made a great product and for him to be available by phone or email is the highest form of customer service!!!
> 
> If I evaluate my experience with it honestly, I think I was turned off for these reasons:
> 1. I had no idea that compulsion training was the norm and couldn't imagine myself succeeding with compulsion training.
> ...


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

RookieTrainer said:


> Asking a serious question here for my possible edification and evolution as a trainer: if there is no compulsion or force to your training, how do you handle a refusal situation?
> 
> I am using TRT by Lardy. I set up a drill this AM to start reacclimating my dog to decoys. Basically running to a pile with decoys off the line on either side. First two sends he goes straight at decoy closest to the pile, and I whistle stop him and handle him to the pile. Third send he heads the same way. I stop him again and call him back to the line. I send again and give him a back-nick-back on a level 2. He straightens right out and doesn't go for the decoys again. The FTP concept was there to get him corrected and remind him that he needs to go straight where he is sent regardless of distractions.
> 
> How would you handle this situation without the FTP background? Keep in mind I am honestly asking, and there may absolutely be a simple answer that I just haven't been exposed to.


Number one, my 8 month old pup is an absolute breeze. She is extremely good at learning and learning quickly. She is also packed with natural talent. Not bragging - she was born that way. She is also very intent on wanting to please, makes constant eye contact and sensitive to any little corrective noise I make to stop her of what she's doing.

Right now we're working on casting to three piles (extension of simple casting). This afternoon, she did make a mistake and go for the right over, instead of the right back. I made a little quick utterance and she stopped and looked at me and came right back to the front sit (pitchers mound). I then simplified by moved closer to her and a little to the right to help her make the right decision when I re-cast her. It worked. I moved back to where I was (about 20 feet away), cast a few overs, then another right back and left back. Worked like a charm.

So in summary, if she's not "getting it", I simplify or back up, help her succeed, then build back to where we were. Yes, I'm still in the early stages, so it'll probably get harder as we go. But we have great communication and terrific biddability. 

She is also super fast. When I cast her, she becomes a blur - snatches up the bumper and flies back to front sit, holds and delivers to hand (no force fetch, just taught fetch/hold). Undoubtedly, I am lucky to have this dog. 

If I had been doing the decoy drill with the pile, I would have first, set out the decoys, walked the dog through and around them and let him/her know I didn't want her to pick them up. Then I would have thrown one bumper for her that landed in front of the decoys, then in the decoys then past the decoys. Teach first, then test. Not trying to sound like a smart ass - think you may have more experience than me but that's what I have done with my older dogs. 

Jennifer


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> Number one, my 8 month old pup is an absolute breeze. She is extremely good at learning and learning quickly. She is also packed with natural talent. Not bragging - she was born that way. She is also very intent on wanting to please, makes constant eye contact and sensitive to any little corrective noise I make to stop her of what she's doing.
> 
> Right now we're working on casting to three piles (extension of simple casting). This afternoon, she did make a mistake and go for the right over, instead of the right back. I made a little quick utterance and she stopped and looked at me and came right back to the front sit (pitchers mound). I then simplified by moved closer to her and a little to the right to help her make the right decision when I re-cast her. It worked. I moved back to where I was (about 20 feet away), cast a few overs, then another right back and left back. Worked like a charm.
> 
> ...



Evan- I hate watching videos of the trainer's best prospects- usually very well trained already. You learn very little. It is like calling on my best students when the principal walks into the classroom- Not the real world of training or edumacation.

*The dog shown was not selected because she was a best-case show peice, but rather was an exceptionally soft, buggy-type. She not only allowed us to show a dog bugging, but also some of the ways we deal with it when it comes up.)* That selection is very admirable!


*She is also super fast. When I cast her, she becomes a blur - snatches up the bumper and flies back to front sit, holds and delivers to hand (no force fetch, just taught fetch/hold). Undoubtedly, I am lucky to have this dog. 
*

Jen--Good job, I like to use the least amount of pressure as well. You are lucky to have that dog. Sounds like my first lab. My current lab, well, let's just say he would perfect for Evan to use as a subject. Incredible high drive with focus issues. 

I do see many advantages to FF, but, more than one way to to train a retriever. 



Admittedly, I have not viewed either program.


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## rspringer (Dec 19, 2011)

I am a first time trainer and have been very pleased with the DVDs as well as Evans willingness to respond to questions on this website. He makes himself open to all kind of questions especially from rookies like me. Again, I am a first time trainer and have went through all DVDs and now we just finished FTP and started working on 3 handed casting. I couldn't have asked for a better experience.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jhenion said:


> I made a little quick utterance and she stopped and looked at me and came right back to the front sit (pitchers mound).
> 
> Jennifer


So based on that response why did she come back to the mound? Maybe because your "utterance" has had a negative associated with it in the past?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> So based on that response why did she come back to the mound? Maybe because your "utterance" has had a negative associated with it in the past?


Yes, it's like a "no". I'm not a 100% positive trainer. I do use "No" and other little cues to let her know if she's doing the wrong thing. Since we're together 24/7 (i take her to work I own a doggie daycare) I can use my body language and face and voice to let her know what I'm thinking about her behavior. What I don't do is compulsion training or e collar corrections. Not against others using it if that's what their desire is. Just not my taste of tea.

Jennifer


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jhenion said:


> Yes, it's like a "no". I'm not a 100% positive trainer. I do use "No" and other little cues to let her know if she's doing the wrong thing. Since we're together 24/7 (i take her to work I own a doggie daycare) I can use my body language and face and voice to let her know what I'm thinking about her behavior. What I don't do is compulsion training or e collar corrections. Not against others using it if that's what their desire is. Just not my taste of tea.
> 
> Jennifer


Why don't you use the full spectrum of available re-enforcement techniques Jennifer? I sense you understand classical and operant conditioning since you do clicker work, if I recall correctly.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> Why don't you use the full spectrum of available re-enforcement techniques Jennifer? I sense you understand classical and operant conditioning since you do clicker work, if I recall correctly.


I don't like force training. It's not in my blood. If my dog is doing the right thing like fetching every time I ask her to and holding every time I ask her to, I don't see a need for force fetch. But I know from experience at my facility that not all dogs are like that.
I figure, if I can communicate to my dog what is needed and build a solid partnership without the collar, I'll do it. If it turns out I need the collar for long distance trial training, I just might try it, but for now, as John said above, won't use force if I don't need to. My real issue is with forcing to pile, forcing to water, etc. If my dog is going to the pile every time and with speed, why zap her?

Jennifer


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Good luck with upper level training with that approach. To my knowledge it's never been done before. You could make millions.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Dman said:


> Good luck with upper level training with that approach. To my knowledge it's never been done before. You could make millions.


Not about making money for 99 percent of us.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

7pntail said:


> Not about making money for 99 percent of us.


Never said it was. I don't make a penny with my dogs. Cost me a lot of money every year. 

All I'm saying is if you can come up with a program that can produce an upper level retriever without some sort of compulsion, you could make tons of money. Lot's of people talk about it, but no one has done it that I am aware of.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jhenion said:


> I don't like force training. It's not in my blood. If my dog is doing the right thing like fetching every time I ask her to and holding every time I ask her to, I don't see a need for force fetch.
> 
> Jennifer


is the underlined above all a dog learns from FF with well timed pressure by an experianced hand?
or is it just a happy by-product of the process?


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## tazman7 (Dec 8, 2011)

Wow, this thread turned out to be pretty long. Thank you Evan for replying, I respect you for that.

I guess being a first time dog trainer has its challenges. Especially when you have a hard headed sob like I do. The dog has talent and it shows, he is just so hard headed it makes it very difficult.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> is the underlined above all a dog learns from FF with well timed pressure by an experianced hand?
> or is it just a happy by-product of the process?


You tell me. And I'd like to know the same about force to pile etc. I think it's likely that it's about the individual dog. I've already acknowledged that mine is unique and therefore not one to base a new program on. 

I think the force training evolved with pros who have several dogs owned by other people and on a tight time schedule. My dog is awesome, owned by me and gets my undivided attention. She is not hard headed or sneaky like some of my past dogs. I'm going to see where this takes me and if it works, great, if not, oh well - no one is paying me or expecting anything from me.

Also Ken - I have a Golden, not a Chessie  !


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

There is no doubt some of the American "field" videos do not explain WHY they are doing...what they are doing. 

The dogs do look as though they are in avoidance and learning - as even science tells us - learning pathways are not ideal.......but the dogs still learn. Dogs are smart...they try to avoid pain. 

Not all dogs have to wag their tail for us to note, their behavior as "happy". 

I closely watch dogs blind work is gauge their training. Back chain if you will!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I am not sure I communicated my question clearly. 

I have been through the exact same scenario you described, and I have done exactly the same things you did. At that stage, you are exactly correct that you are teaching and not testing.

My question is further along. Once you have taught a certain skill and the dog inevitably refuses to do it at some point, what then? And I am talking about a scenario where you know the dog knows what you are asking and would just rather do something else. 

That's what happened to me yesterday. I did walk him around, show him the decoys, told him "leave it" at each one, and even let him see me put the pile down. We then got on 
the mat, and I cued him with "sit, dead bird", which I know to him means run straight out and continue running until you get to a bumper/bird. He told me with his eyes that he wasn't going to do that, and he didn't. He ran straight to one of the decoys instead of where he was lined up. I stopped him and handled him off the decoy to the pile twice, the second time adding a "no" before the sit whistle. The third time I brought him back,
sent him with a "back-nick-back" and reminded him that he needed to go straight to the pile and get the bumper. Worked like a charm.

Without some sort of force/compulsion framework in place, what is your strategy for dealing with a situation where your dog has decided that a distraction is just too appealing (like a decoy, perhaps) or that she just feels like giving you the finger that day? How do you remind her, in a timely manner at the distances we are talking about, that her conduct is not acceptable?

I'm not trying to get you to change your mind. On the contrary, I am looking for an acceptable answer to my question so I can seriously consider changing the way I train in the future. 



Jhenion said:


> Number one, my 8 month old pup is an absolute breeze. She is extremely good at learning and learning quickly. She is also packed with natural talent. Not bragging - she was born that way. She is also very intent on wanting to please, makes constant eye contact and sensitive to any little corrective noise I make to stop her of what she's doing.
> 
> Right now we're working on casting to three piles (extension of simple casting). This afternoon, she did make a mistake and go for the right over, instead of the right back. I made a little quick utterance and she stopped and looked at me and came right back to the front sit (pitchers mound). I then simplified by moved closer to her and a little to the right to help her make the right decision when I re-cast her. It worked. I moved back to where I was (about 20 feet away), cast a few overs, then another right back and left back. Worked like a charm.
> 
> ...


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Rex Carr's client asked him why to correct the dog if he's doing it right ? Reply was " because I know dogs better than not to "


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> You tell me. And I'd like to know the same about force to pile etc. I think it's likely that it's about the individual dog. I've already acknowledged that mine is unique and therefore not one to base a new program on.
> 
> I think the force training evolved with pros who have several dogs owned by other people and on a tight time schedule. My dog is awesome, owned by me and gets my undivided attention. She is not hard headed or sneaky like some of my past dogs. I'm going to see where this takes me and if it works, great, if not, oh well - no one is paying me or expecting anything from me.
> 
> Also Ken - I have a Golden, not a Chessie  !


This is true. "It is likely about the individual dog." Dogs are all different and respond to different teachings. My Cosmo dog can take pressure whereas my 3 yo less is better and he really doesn't need the pressure. You are the judge and advocate for your dog. You chose what is the best for him. Doesn't mean you don't follow a program and be consistent, patient and fair.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

"It's really more basic than that and I don't think a dog is capable of thinking that way. I do think though that they are able to form associations and using negative re-enforcement increases consistency, making those ingrained habits we want easier to form. All the e-collar does at that point is create good timing at long distances."
Darrin Greene

True statement E collar great for LD. But use it fairly. There is a pager on Dogtra that can be used to get your dog's attention. Some dogs will no doubt require more pressure. I think most dogs should do FF and CC. IMHO


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Great post Darrin.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I guess I'll have to re-write it Ken


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

were did it go???


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> Once you have taught a certain skill and the dog inevitably refuses to do it at some point, what then? And I am talking about a scenario where you know the dog knows what you are asking and would just rather do something else.
> 
> .


It is called attrition. You only tried twice before going to a force behavior. For those who do not use force, they use attrition. You lost your patience after two tries, and decided to use force as the answer, whereas someone who does not use force would just keep doing it. Keep handling away from the decoys (or other scenario).

And IMO, the heat that you gave was the incorrect use of it. Back Nick Back is not go straight where I point you. It is go back until I tell you to stop. Your heat should have come when they continued to go to the decoys. It is my opinion that you would have given the sit whistle, nicked them, and then cast them away from the decoys to the known location. You nick them for doing the wrong thing (going to the decoys), so they can determine exactly why they are getting the nick, not nick them from the line. Nicking them from the line means GO, GO, GO. Your pup was already going, just to the wrong place, in your mind. Not really sure how old your pup is, but I know it takes a lot of work to get a dog to get the "picture" you want, and not the picture they see. If they continue to decide on the wrong picture, they are not doing it on purpose, it is just because their training has not advanced enough.

Now back to the original question. I have used both Lardy and Smartworks. I bought Lardy first because that is what I was told to buy. But, since I was a first time trainer, I could not understand going from point A to point B, so I ended up buying Smartworks. And boy, did it help me. It filled in the gaps of my weekly training sessions with a mentor, and it got me over the hump on many of issues. When I first got into this sport, I did not realize or understand the force part of it, but force is what was required for my pup, so I have altered my thinking, and accepted it.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

tazman7 said:


> Wow, this thread turned out to be pretty long. Thank you Evan for replying, I respect you for that.
> 
> I guess being a first time dog trainer has its challenges. Especially when you have a hard headed sob like I do. The dog has talent and it shows, he is just so hard headed it makes it very difficult.


You're wecome. I hope you'll contact me anytime I can be of help.

Evan


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jhenion said:


> My real issue is with forcing to pile, forcing to water, etc. If my dog is going to the pile every time and with speed, why zap her?


I wrote this for you and then thought better of it but since I have Mr. Bora's endorsement here's an abridged version.

First, I hate the words "force" and "zap".

"Force" is a word from the days when political correctness wasn't en vogue and is really an incorrect term as it relates to the e-collar, or even and ear pinch. To "force" a dog to retrieve would be to grab him by the collar, drag him to the bird, force his mouth open and drag him back. What "force" really refers to in a retriever program is the application of negative re-enforcement to known commands using various tools (ear pinch, toe hitch, choke chain, pinch collar, heeling stick, e-collar). 

"Zap" is again a misnomer. To "zap" brings electrocution to mind and in no way is that what the e-collar does. It's static, and yes it's annoying and negative, hence it's use in negative re-enforcement strategies.

This will be a gross simplification but if you study child psychology, what you'll find is that children engage in many different learned behaviors in order to access rewards. Rewards come in many forms but they are either positive (the child gains something) or negative (the child escapes from or avoids something). What researchers and educators have found is that in order to take a socially unacceptable behavior (acting out, for instance) and turn it into a productive one (being quiet and paying attention in class), the reward for the alternate behavior has to have greater value than the original reward. The child will choose 100% of the time to do the behavior with the highest value reward.

Dogs are no different. They constantly make these value based judgments. She comes when called now because the food you offer, or the affection you offer is of great value to her but someday, it's entirely possible that chasing the cat will be more valuable and at that point, her value based decision will be to ignore you. At that point we have a real problem when she runs across the street.

To me, negative re-enforcement compliments positive re-enforcement strategies. Once you have taught a behavior with positives, you also use aversives to negatively re-enforce it so that you have that tool in the box should you need it later. Yes, the dog does have to go through the process and it may not seem fair or necessary, but you would hate to figure out it was a good idea after you scoop her up out of the street. The idea is that at some point when chasing the cat becomes more desirable than a pet or a treat, we have avoiding the e-collar as a higher value reward to change that behavior. 

What I always tell people is that if you've only ever employed positive re-enforcement strategies in your training, you haven't fully re-enforced the behaviors you want, and you've left yourself without what could be a life saving tool down the line. By using both positive and negative re-enforcement we are able to communicate the desired behavior in multiple ways to the dog, thus making the ingrained habit we're really looking for much more solid and easy to maintain. When our original reward fails us, we have another, potentially stronger reward (avoidance) to lean on in the event of an emergency.

As for the e-collar as the tool of choice, it's simply a matter of timing, once the dog leaves the confines of a six foot leash. If you've worked a long line, you know it's often not in the right position for a timely re-enforcement, so once they leave the leash the e-collar is the tool of choice in creating consistent, timely re-enforcement of desired commands. 

Collar conditioning, btw doesn't have to be a big nasty ordeal and neither does re-enforcing the fetch command (which is really what FTP is). If you're careful to combine positive re-enforcement strategies with it, attitudes are easy to maintain also. 

Many times there's no convincing someone on these issues, so sorry for beating on a dead horse. I have just had to come up with better ways to explain the use of the collar in retrievers (and other dogs) than to say "we force fetch because we want the dog to fetch because they feel they have to, vs. wanting to". I don't think a dog is capable of that level of cognitive thought. I think what we're doing in fully re-enforcing the desired behavior and giving ourselves good timing at longer distances in order to maintain them.

It's often hard for people to separate their emotions from the equation and understand the science behind this. They see pushing the button on the collar as punishment and punishment only, probably because it is annoying (and they think painful) to the dog. We rarely, if ever use it for that and in fact, if you've never cold burned a dog you probably never have. In every single case where the collar is used in conjunction with a command, it is a re-enforcer of that command. 

If people could get their head around the science we would have a lot less controversy.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I wrote this for you and then thought better of it but since I have Mr. Bora's endorsement here's an abridged version.
> 
> First, I hate the words "force" and "zap".
> 
> ...


That is a great post Darrin. I made sure you can not delete it again....lol


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Zman1001 said:


> That is a great post Darrin. I made sure you can not delete it again....lol


I actually edited it somewhat. One day I'll learn to type this stuff in word and copy paste. oh and GEE... THANKS!

I do appreciate the compliments though, they can be kinda rare around these parts.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> I actually edited it somewhat. One day I'll learn to type this stuff in word and copy paste. ...


that is how I type my long posts, nice post just the same. I hope Jennifer reads and give it some sink in time.
I think, making blanket statements about ANY traing program you do not know. Is just like saying "I would never eat LARD!" and then asking in the next breath, "This is the best pie crust I have ever had, how did you make it?"


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

Good Post Darrin,
I am a by far a novice but one thing i have seen in learning is that alot of folks that follow more traditional approaches think clicker training and positive reinforcement is just treats. They are limiting their training abilities by not learning this new wave of information about positive reinforcement. It aint for everybody, but i think folks should research shaping behaviors when training a dog. Another thing that is good to mention is that many folks who train with positive reinforcement have no desire for their retrievers to do what FT and MH dogs do. What their dogs do is amazing, i just don't need that in a hunting retriever. 
I am not writing this to start a new argument about how FT dogs are not as good hunters as Hunt test dogs, and how each dog is not as good as a meat dog that works every day of the year. That whole argument is stupid and not productive. We need to train our dogs for the standard we need. I need a dog that is steady and can be handled around the eighty to one hundred yard distance. I don't care if they pop or cheat water. I feel i have done this with Positive reinforcement with my pups. If i cared about the other stuff or wanted to increase distance i would incorporate other methods because i am asking my dogs to do things not natural for them. With PR i am trying to shape the natural behavior of my dogs, not neccesarily adding to it.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jay Dufour said:


> Rex Carr's client asked him why to correct the dog if he's doing it right ? Reply was " because I know dogs better than not to "


Jay,

Thanks for that quote! When I was working for John Hahn as an assistant, and learning the Carr method, I listened to his copy of the audio tapes from a rare seminar he (Carr) gave many years ago. I think it was hosted by the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club in Colorado. Ray Bly was demonstrating Heel & Sit with a heeling stick, and doing some pressure conditioning with it. Afterward during Q&A a lady was heard to ask, "I noticed that Torrey (FC-AFC Raider's Torrid Lady) was trying to sit as commanded, but you had Ray stick her anyway. Why?" What he said was worth a great deal to anyone really listening. "Well, a direct answer would be that I know too d*mned much about dogs not to!" He then went on to explain pressure conditioning. But he had a way of getting the attention of the student!

Nothing inhumane about conditioning dogs to pressure. One can make a good argument that it's more human than not doing it. The result is a more secure dog, and a more stable dog when the situation needs a stable response, even though there may be significant distraction or percieved pressure.

Evan


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Sorry I did not take the time to read this entire thread.....but if you can find out how many,Grand dogs, Master National qualifiers, National open and national Amateur dogs are trained with this method.....I'll make my decision, but for now I'll stick with the method I have been taught. I had the same thought with my first dog didn't make it past 16 weeks changed my mind when she was running the show. It's all about getting that critical cast or controlling your dog on a poison bird blind or even getting him to sit instead of running in front of that car barreling down the road instead of chasing that pesky cat!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Darrin was kind enough to send me a PM that he ended up posting on the thread - which was a great idea! Good explanation! Below is what I wrote in response and think it is also worth sharing just to shed light on my perspective. First let me say to Rookie Trainer, the answer for me is that if dog is still doing the behavior incorrectly, then she still doesn't understand what I want and I need to make the lesson more clear. I'll do it with attrition, simplification and lots of explanation. I don't think my dog is the type of personality to flip me off or do something wrong on purpose or even to be self employed. I know the difference. I have a self employed older dog (almost 3) and see lots of dogs at my work who are the "flip you off" type. My girl is not one of them.

Hi Darrin,
Thanks for writing all of that. I haven't actually heard that explanation for the collar use and was glad to have read it. 

I do have an understanding of the science. Studied the four quadrants in depth for the last year as they apply to dog training and general learning. Also have a degree in Psychology and Philosophy and made special study of behaviorism at the University of Missouri. 

What I especially know about aversives, like a burn from the collar, crack on the rear with heeling stick or my boot, on the way to the pile or water, is that end behavior is increased exponentially. Whatever behavior happens directly after the aversive, is what is learned by the dog. If it means the dog goes faster to the bumper, pile or water or kennel or sit position, the trainer is rewarded and dog remembers he better sit or run fast or else. 

I've personally seen this at my kennel with dogs who refuse to come to the door when called. When they finally get to the door and start to creep in through, I give them a goose in the rear with my boot. They're surprised by this and speed through. After one or two gooses thru the door, they speed on through from there on out. These are other peoples' dogs that I don't have time to train to come with Pos reinforcement only. My own dogs, I do. I teach them to come when called and come in thru the door on the first call with pos reinf. And I never have trouble with them answering my call and quickly. 

I do appreciate the conversation and I don't have a problem with you or others using the collar for force fetch or force to pile etc. It's an especially good tool for some when teaching their dog not to chase cats or refuse the recall command. Frankly I use the same science at my kennel with other dogs, just not with the collar. Its just not what I'll do with my Golden pup. I plan to run her in the derby this spring and in senior tests early summer. I will let everyone know how it goes. Pass or fail.

Thanks again,
Jennifer


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm going with a by product of the process. Its about so much more that delivery to hand.


Ken Bora said:


> is the underlined above all a dog learns from FF with well timed pressure by an experianced hand?
> or is it just a happy by-product of the process?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I hope you do great with your Golden pup in the derby. To me there is nothing as fun as running a talented, good marking pup in derbies, good luck!

As to the training discussion I can only go by my experience with my Goldens over the last twenty years, thirty years if you count my first Golden who I trained using Wolter's "Water Dog". The rest of my dogs were trained using conventional Carr based programs. These are all field bred, hard charging dogs with lots of drive and desire to retrieve. With that "bottom" built in by genes, attitude is not a problem and I have never had a dog act fearful or slinky off line. I do have one worryer, who hates to be in trouble and is allways trying his best to please, that's just his nature and force would only make it worse, so I go lighter with him, but he still gets collar corrections when appropriate.

Good luck with your program, I hope to see her rack up some derby points this spring and summer. I'll be right behind you with my "Muddy" who will be one year old July first.

John


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

If you aspire to train your dog to a high level you will encounter many situations when you dog is no longer reliable with your training technique. You will have no tool at your side to ensure that you can work throug the no gos, etc. Dogs aren't forced to save time, they are forced to be sure that when things go hay wire you can take control of the situation and gain a reliable response from the dog.


Jhenion said:


> You tell me. And I'd like to know the same about force to pile etc. I think it's likely that it's about the individual dog. I've already acknowledged that mine is unique and therefore not one to base a new program on.
> 
> I think the force training evolved with pros who have several dogs owned by other people and on a tight time schedule. My dog is awesome, owned by me and gets my undivided attention. She is not hard headed or sneaky like some of my past dogs. I'm going to see where this takes me and if it works, great, if not, oh well - no one is paying me or expecting anything from me.
> 
> Also Ken - I have a Golden, not a Chessie  !


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Jhenion said:


> My own dogs, I do. I teach them to come when called and come in thru the door on the first call with pos reinf. And I never have trouble with them answering my call and quickly.
> 
> It's an especially good tool for some when teaching their dog not to chase cats or refuse the recall command.


I don't like to use little pieces of peoples quotes. I usually only do it to make a point that someone else is doing it. These two sentences just stuck out a little. Leads me to be quite convinced you've trained with someone that gave you an impression of what the collar "IS" used for and how it's used. Most likely incorrectly in both cases. 

Two different scenario's you've pointed out that could be used. Recall, as part of a typical e-collar training and "trashbreaking". Something entirely different.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

claimsadj said:


> If you aspire to train your dog to a high level you will encounter many situations when you dog is no longer reliable with your training technique. You will have no tool at your side to ensure that you can work throug the no gos, etc. Dogs aren't forced to save time, they are forced to be sure that when things go hay wire you can take control of the situation and gain a reliable response from the dog.


Maybe you're a "glass half empty" kind of guy/gal. Not sure anyone can say for sure that I'll fail at the higher levels, since no one has ever tried what I'm doing as far as I know. As I've said before, there is a guy on the east coast running a 4 year old field golden in the Quals with no force, and 90 - 100 % positive reinforcement. He has gotten a few Jams. He, like myself, is following the Mike Lardy program sans force. I think I may have a head start on that guy since he has a full-time job and can't train while at work, like I can.

Lets reserve judgement until judgement day.

Jennifer


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I don't like to use little pieces of peoples quotes. I usually only do it to make a point that someone else is doing it. These two sentences just stuck out a little. Leads me to be quite convinced you've trained with someone that gave you an impression of what the collar "IS" used for and how it's used. Most likely incorrectly in both cases.
> 
> Two different scenario's you've pointed out that could be used. Recall, as part of a typical e-collar training and "trashbreaking". Something entirely different.


You're right, I don't think anyone can know how to use the collar correctly unless they have taken a class or seminar on it and then use it themselves to gain experience. I have none of that. Just know that several people on this thread and others have mentioned using the collar to prevent chasing cats, car accidents etc. And I know Mike Lardy and Evan use it on their videos to hasten and solidify the force to pile and force to water and force fetch and obedience training.

I have no problem with others using the collar or force methods. Have never disparaged anyone for it and hold no grudges about it. I won't even argue whether it's better or worse than what I'm doing with my pup. Let me have my experiment. You go ahead and use your proven way and I'll go ahead and try this and suffer the consequences if it doesn't work. I'll even tell you about it so you can laugh at me! How's that?


Jen


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I was just pointing out that trashbreaking and recall are two different things entirely. You'll be lucky if you have a collar on the dog with the controller in your hand while Fido takes off after a cat with a school bus coming at him. That's just a stupid anology. 

Now, have a collar conditioned dog who plants his butt on the ground when you say "NO SIT" no matter what kind of chaos is happening around you, that's something entirely different. Of course, back to chasing the cat and Fido's in the middle of the street with a school bus coming and you told him to "No SIT"....Well, "Sit Happens".  "NO SIT" on breaking or any problem is a fairly common first utterance whenever something is starting to go wrong and dogs understand it....well, "many" dogs.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I was just pointing out that trashbreaking and recall are two different things entirely. You'll be lucky if you have a collar on the dog with the controller in your hand while Fido takes off after a cat with a school bus coming at him. That's just a stupid anology.
> 
> Now, have a collar conditioned dog who plants his butt on the ground when you say "NO SIT" no matter what kind of chaos is happening around you, that's something entirely different. Of course, back to chasing the cat and Fido's in the middle of the street with a school bus coming and you told him to "No SIT"....Well, "Sit Happens".  "NO SIT" on breaking or any problem is a fairly common first utterance whenever something is starting to go wrong and dogs understand it....well, "many" dogs.


Same thing goes for a well collar conditioned dog with a "NO HERE" command Paul. Hence the street and the school bus analogy.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Evan said:


> Jay,
> 
> Thanks for that quote! When I was working for John Hahn as an assistant, and learning the Carr method, I listened to his copy of the audio tapes from a rare seminar he (Carr) gave many years ago. I think it was hosted by the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club in Colorado. Ray Bly was demonstrating Heel & Sit with a heeling stick, and doing some pressure conditioning with it. Afterward during Q&A a lady was heard to ask, "I noticed that Torrey (FC-AFC Raider's Torrid Lady) was trying to sit as commanded, but you had Ray stick her anyway. Why?" What he said was worth a great deal to anyone really listening. "Well, a direct answer would be that I know too d*mned much about dogs not to!" He then went on to explain pressure conditioning. But he had a way of getting the attention of the student!
> 
> ...


Yep This is what I was referring to.And the Torchy story at the National is relevant too.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Zman1001 said:


> It is called attrition. You only tried twice before going to a force behavior. For those who do not use force, they use attrition. You lost your patience after two tries, and decided to use force as the answer, whereas someone who does not use force would just keep doing it. Keep handling away from the decoys (or other scenario). *How do you know I lost my patience? I asked him for a behavior actually three times, was sure he knew what I was asking, and he refused to do it. How much attrition do you think is appropriate in a non-teaching situation? Keep in mind that I have trained this dog with a great deal of help pretty much every single day since he was 7 weeks old, save the time he spent with a pro being FF and CC, and I probably know him a lot better than you do having never seen him work.*
> 
> And IMO, the heat that you gave was the incorrect use of it. Back Nick Back is not go straight where I point you. It is go back until I tell you to stop. *Doesn't do much good to have them go until I tell you to stop if they are going in the wrong direction, does it? Isn't that why we force to a pile instead of just forcing them to run a straight line?* Your heat should have come when they continued to go to the decoys. It is my opinion that you would have given the sit whistle, nicked them, and then cast them away from the decoys to the known location. You nick them for doing the wrong thing (going to the decoys), so they can determine exactly why they are getting the nick, not nick them from the line. Nicking them from the line means GO, GO, GO. Your pup was already going, just to the wrong place, in your mind. Not really sure how old your pup is, but I know it takes a lot of work to get a dog to get the "picture" you want, and not the picture they see. If they continue to decide on the wrong picture, they are not doing it on purpose, it is just because their training has not advanced enough. *He has run to piles and done enough sight blinds that he understands he needs to go straight to the pile on a "back." It happened again this AM, and the same light nick worked again. If I am using this incorrectly, why does it immediately straighten out his line? IMHO, it is because the FTP work I did with him instilled a compulsion to get to the pile ASAP, and the quickest way to the pile is a straight line.*
> 
> Now back to the original question. I have used both Lardy and Smartworks. I bought Lardy first because that is what I was told to buy. But, since I was a first time trainer, I could not understand going from point A to point B, so I ended up buying Smartworks. And boy, did it help me. It filled in the gaps of my weekly training sessions with a mentor, and it got me over the hump on many of issues. When I first got into this sport, I did not realize or understand the force part of it, but force is what was required for my pup, so I have altered my thinking, and accepted it.


See my replies in bold. In any event, our back-and-forth doesn't have much to do with my original and still unanswered question of what do you do with a refusal at the distances we are typically talking about if you don't have some sort of force framework in place to deal with it. Claimsadj summed it up much more elegantly than I could.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

claimsadj said:


> If you aspire to train your dog to a high level you will encounter many situations when you dog is no longer reliable with your training technique. You will have no tool at your side to ensure that you can work throug the no gos, etc. Dogs aren't forced to save time, they are forced to be sure that when things go hay wire you can take control of the situation and gain a reliable response from the dog.


Hmm? You can't use a collar in the FT or HT so it would behove you to have other tools in your arsenal the dog will respond to on the day of the trial or test when he is amped. Yes I agree you want a reliable response from your dog but you don't teach with the E-collar. You can use attrition or the collar to enforce the command (give command first) after the dog has been taught! I think if you work towards establishing very high standards from the outset your dog will respond to you at a trial. Lardy and Voigt wrote some *Training Guidelines* that are extremely helpful towards training. IMHO


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Explain what tools you are talking about. I understand a little bit about training a dog, you don't have to talk in a 1st grade language for me to understand. Explain to me how you are going to train a competitive dog without the use of an e collar. How do you keep the dog in the water on big swims when they are tired, just because its the right thing to do? How do you handle tight poisin birds, just because the dog knows its not supposed to go there? I want to hear about these tools.


Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Hmm? You can't use a collar in the FT or HT so it would behove you to have other tools in your arsenal the dog will respond to on the day of the trial or test when he is amped. Yes I agree you want a reliable response from your dog but you don't teach with the E-collar. You can use attrition or the collar to enforce the command (give command first) after the dog has been taught! I think if you work towards establishing very high standards from the outset your dog will respond to you at a trial. Lardy and Voigt wrote some *Training Guidelines* that are extremely helpful towards training. IMHO


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Are your dogs trained with the use of a collar?


Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Hmm? You can't use a collar in the FT or HT so it would behove you to have other tools in your arsenal the dog will respond to on the day of the trial or test when he is amped. Yes I agree you want a reliable response from your dog but you don't teach with the E-collar. You can use attrition or the collar to enforce the command (give command first) after the dog has been taught! I think if you work towards establishing very high standards from the outset your dog will respond to you at a trial. Lardy and Voigt wrote some *Training Guidelines* that are extremely helpful towards training. IMHO


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Lots of interesting discussion on this thread. I hate the title, though! :evilbat:

Evan


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## Waterbug (Feb 27, 2008)

You can always get a mega horn, and after you get 4 cast refusals in a row while teaching the two down the shore, and yell... Does Fluffy want a cookie. If that doesnt work I guess you just jump in and swim out to have a talk. I like to put tatar sauce on the scallops! Helpy Helper person


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Evan said:


> Lots of interesting discussion on this thread. I hate the title, though! :evilbat:
> 
> Evan


Yeah, the thread title is a little disrespectfull, but it led to a very good discussion. 

As for me, I'm a conventional trainer as most on here are, but though skeptical, I'll keep an open mind and wish those that go another route do well with their dog. The only issue I have with some is their assumption that my way of training dogs is abusive, when I believe the opposite is true. It is my belief that the greatest boon to teaching field trial Goldens, a breed that has been considered relatively soft over the years, is the modern e-collar. In comparison to the old ways that were somewhat medieval, a well timed correction of appropriate intensity, for that dog and that situation, is much easier for an intellegent dog, such as a Golden Retriever to understand and deal with.

John


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## vstoddard (Mar 23, 2012)

I have one of these myself and trainers around here don't want to touch her. I got the smartworks program to help me out, and I missed a bunch of stuff when she was a puppy that she should be doing. I basically started watching the dvd's from the beginning even the ones I thought that I had everything down (I didn't). Now i'm starting some of the simple things with her to try and instill those, then jump back to where we were at. I love this program and it's helping out a lot. I just wish I would have bought it sooner.



tazman7 said:


> Wow, this thread turned out to be pretty long. Thank you Evan for replying, I respect you for that.
> 
> I guess being a first time dog trainer has its challenges. Especially when you have a hard headed sob like I do. The dog has talent and it shows, he is just so hard headed it makes it very difficult.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Yeah, the thread title is a little disrespectfull, but it led to a very good discussion.
> 
> As for me, I'm a conventional trainer as most on here are, but though skeptical, I'll keep an open mind and wish those that go another route do well with their dog. The only issue I have with some is their assumption that my way of training dogs is abusive, when I believe the opposite is true. It is my belief that the greatest boon to teaching field trial Goldens, a breed that has been considered relatively soft over the years, is the modern e-collar. In comparison to the old ways that were somewhat medieval, a well timed, correction of appropriate intensity for that dog and situation is much easier for an intellegent dog, such as a Golden Retriever to understand and deal with.
> 
> John


I'm in complete agreement.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

I have trained 6 Goldens thus far, 4 to MH (another nearly there) and 2 who ran Quals and Amat. My avatar dog (Adirondac Bustd at the Bordr) was not collar trained. He was so extremely biddable that it was not necessary. All of my other dogs, including the one I am running in MH and Qual now have been collar trained. My training program was basically the same for all of my dogs. I just used verbal corrections or on occasion walked out and had a chat with my non-collar trained dog. That worked very well for him, but I can honestly say it would not have worked for any my other dogs. I think there are some dogs out there that can be trained without an e-collar, but the majority of them are trained to a higher level, with more consistency, with one. I find that more dogs fail training or become confused by the lack of a timely well understood correction than fail because of being corrected.

Dawn


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

claimsadj said:


> Explain what tools you are talking about. I understand a little bit about training a dog, you don't have to talk in a 1st grade language for me to understand. Explain to me how you are going to train a competitive dog without the use of an e collar. *Topbrass Cotton, Holway Barty, many many dogs got their NFC, NAFC, FC and AFC long before the ecollar was in regular use.*
> 
> How do you keep the dog in the water on big swims when they are tired, just because its the right thing to do? *Work up to it with short distances and big rewards of a shot flyer or fresh killed birds - Do you Nick/Burn your dog when it is tired in the water?
> *
> ...


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Mostly Gold is right on!

In the end, it all comes down to consistency, timing and understanding of what's happening in the dog's head and your own head. How you brought up the dog with the right habits and a consistent, fair method of punishment and reward that makes sense. Not to mention, thoroughly teaching the dog the concept at hand. A person may think the dog know the concept, but if it fails at it, it clearly doesn't know the concept. And I'd say if you think the dog is flipping you off, maybe you did something to make the dog want to flip you off.

A lot of people get great things done with the e collar and I admire them for that. No problems with it. Just not for me. I also use a manual screw driver or hire a pro handyman to run the power drill. It's just me. Not trying to change the world.

P.S. Maybe Tazman has the power to change the title of the thread - hope he does!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

claimsadj said:


> Are your dogs trained with the use of a collar?


Yes all my dogs are CC and FF. Does that help you understand! Sorry you are upset with one opinion. Always happy to explain the way I do things! I use the collar judiciously, probably very little or not at all except on my Cosmo pup who is a bit less cooperative!!!! I do alot of obedience, lining drills, DT, - teaching my 3 yo to take straight lines to marks and blinds, and I do pile work etc.etc without the use of the collar. 
Of what I have taught my Tar, I am confident he can do what I ask of him. I will say on the longish blinds if we get the loopy sit, I may go back to pile work or I have a buzz or pager on my collar because I find now in my later years it is too far to walk out, so I buzz him to grab his attention and say `Sit`. Usually he sits quick. If does not and depending on the circumstances I may walk out to him, give him a talking to, or use attrition, or IP (10 on Dogtra). But of late we have not been using the collar and getting a good response both with lining and casting work. We did use buzz or IP to do some cheat work on water. Now Tar is an exceptionally good student and is easy to teach!which is really nice believe me.

Now having explained to you the way I train (right or wrong). How do I expect to do things without collar use or little collar use. I will worry about that. It really doesn`t matter. I respect your opinion on the collar and I am not saying not to use. It also depends on the dog. Also this is the way I train with very little collar pressure and I like it. I spend my time teaching my dog over and over lining and concepts. Just the way I do things. IMHO Good luck with your dog or dogs!

EVAN Yes we are not on topic. I got side tracked! Sorry everyone!


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Your first point has no merit and is irrelevant. Collars exist now and didn't then. Again that point is irrelevant. My dogs know how to negotiate water. Tired or not the expectation is to get out past the guns. Getting out early is corrected when I read that the dog is trying to cheat. Good luck with those poison birds if you have a birdy dog. Teach all you want but at some point taking the bird away before they get it won't be enough. You're living in a dream world if you think that approach will hold up over time and with different dogs. Unless you don't have much dog by your side to begin with.


Jhenion said:


> claimsadj said:
> 
> 
> > Explain what tools you are talking about. I understand a little bit about training a dog, you don't have to talk in a 1st grade language for me to understand. Explain to me how you are going to train a competitive dog without the use of an e collar. *Topbrass Cotton, Holway Barty, many many dogs got their NFC, NAFC, FC and AFC long before the ecollar was in regular use.*
> ...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> EVAN Yes we are not on topic. I got side tracked! Sorry everyone!


That's okay, Mary Lynn. It's been interesting, and it's not really my thread anyway. For what it's worth it sounds to me like you use an e-collar as it should be used.

Evan


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

claimsadj said:


> Your first point has no merit and is irrelevant. Collars exist now and didn't then. Again that point is irrelevant. My dogs know how to negotiate water. Tired or not the expectation is to get out past the guns. Getting out early is corrected when I read that the dog is trying to cheat. Good luck with those poison birds if you have a birdy dog. Teach all you want but at some point taking the bird away before they get it won't be enough. *You're living in a dream world if you think that approach will hold up over time and with different dogs.* Unless you don't have much dog by your side to begin with.
> 
> Claim,
> The point isn't whether her approach holds up over time with different dogs, it needs to work with her dog. Now you and I can be skeptical on how effective her training will be, but it has been my experience that nobody has a monopoly on dog training, and real dedication can make up for for a lot. Also her first point was relevant and it does have merit, the collar hasn't taken over because the old way didn't work, it took over because it is easier and faster. I remember talking to Bill Glen about him training Zeke without a collar, Zeke was as solid an FC-AFC as there ever was, it took a lot more effort to train him that way, Bill actually had to swim out to get in Zeke's face during a water blind on occasion, but he suceeded.
> ...


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Jhenion said:


> I plan to run her in the derby this spring and in senior tests early summer. I will let everyone know how it goes. Pass or fail.


Cool, you have a beautiful girl there.





Jhenion said:


> Lets reserve judgement until judgement day.


Cool too, but ........



Jhenion said:


> You're right, I don't think anyone can know how to use the collar correctly unless they have taken a class or seminar on it and then use it themselves to gain experience. I have none of that. Just know that several people on this thread and others have mentioned using the collar to prevent chasing cats, car accidents etc. *And I know Mike Lardy and Evan use it on their videos to hasten and solidify the force to pile and force to water and force fetch and obedience training.*
> 
> I have no problem with others using the collar or force methods. Have never disparaged anyone for it and hold no grudges about it. I won't even argue whether it's better or worse than what I'm doing with my pup. *Let me have my experiment. You go ahead and use your proven way and I'll go ahead and try this and suffer the consequences if it doesn't work. *I'll even tell you about it so you can laugh at me! How's that?
> 
> ...


Hi Jenifer, you seem like a great gal who loves her dog and just hates the idea of using punishment/pressure, which will make you a great trainer.


The part that you are missing and that almost all newcomers don't get, is that the e-collar used correctly is FAR and AWAY more humane than trying to get the same results without it.

Put another way, if you are going to run derby's like you say, the measures you will have to take to teach your dog not to run the bank (cheat the water), without the use of an e-collar are down right cruel. 

And, those same measures only get worse when your pup turns two and you have to step up to doing water blinds.


Old enough to remember when we all trained your way and it wasn't pretty.

We are not passing judgement, we care about your dog.




Don Semple


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> claimsadj said:
> 
> 
> > Explain what tools you are talking about. I understand a little bit about training a dog, you don't have to talk in a 1st grade language for me to understand. Explain to me how you are going to train a competitive dog without the use of an e collar. *Topbrass Cotton, Holway Barty, many many dogs got their NFC, NAFC, FC and AFC long before the ecollar was in regular use.*
> ...


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Don't worry Don, I won't be getting cruel. And I don't have a problem with punishment, I use it everyday in varying degrees. Some dogs need more than others. Mine needs very little and so far has a great water attitude. Not a natural water cheater like my older show golden. We'll be starting attrition de-cheating in the next 10 days depending on weather here in Nor-Cal. Will let you know how it goes if you like. Promise I won't use a rat gun or a cattle prod. 

Jen


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## ImNotaSpammer (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm curious to know if a person CAN follow the Smartwork program without using an e-collar or if an e-collar is essential to this program.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

I just read this entire post and I hope what i'm adding will help with the OP. It seems like for the most part this thread has gone off topic with the age old discussion of "to pressure or not to pressure".

Foremost, I think any newcomer asking the question the OP did needs to address the question of what do you want out of your dog or what do you plan to do with him? For the most part, the replies have been from folks who want to take their dogs to higher levels of training than most people really desire. These high levels of training require advanced techniques and a dog that can accept them. 

A lot of my friends who have "hunting dogs" and "hunt" with them, have produced a dog, that in their eyes, meets their needs. I put "hunting dog" and "Hunt" in parenthesis because those words alone have a wide range of definitions based on what your expectation of hunting truly is, and believe me, there is a very wide range here. These dogs of my friends have not been introduced to pressure as discussed here but they do find the bird and bring the bird back most of the time. 

I have given up trying to explain the concepts of pressure and higher level training to people that simply do not expect their dog to do this. The reasons for not using pressure has a wide range as well. I think I have run into most of them with the "my poor child" people and the "I'll call animal cruelty on you if I see you shock that dog" people being on the most non-understanding and unwilling to change their view side. These same people will be the ones who allow their dog to wear it's collar more like a necklace than a tightly fitted control mechanism and if for some reason if they do use an e-collar, it would definitely be used inconsistently and almost never will the collar be placed on the dog correctly. 

From what I have seen in watching the videos and being in live testing/trialing/training situations is that the dog is constantly being built up and then broken down as a way to condition the dog. Its a process, and any dog in training, at any one time, can be found to be in one of these cycles. The trainer who sees his dog bugging, cowering, averting pressure and etc. will most likely step back and allow time for the dog to be built back up from that low point. If not, most likely the dog will wash out in the higher level programs. Allowing a dog to go through these cycles will show you where the holes are. 

Having a dog that is so good and smart that it does not make many mistakes, if any at all, will most likely have more holes in its training than a dog that is conditioned for the good, the bad and the ugly. I can use force fetch as an example of this pretty easily. Just take an un-force fetched dog out to hunt woodcock and ask him to pick up a freshly killed one, even though all the dog has ever picked up is ducks or pheasants. Most likely the non FF dog will not pick it up and no amount of praise or happiness will get the dog to change its mind. Another example would be the the pheasant which you just shot at close range and blew its guts out. Most likely, the dog will lick the guts and not want to pick it up. 

So my point is, some people dont expect their dog to hunt woodcock or pick up a nasty half blown up pheasant, but their dog still hunts and retrieves for them. What your definition of hunting is and what you expect out of a hunting dog is where it all starts. Hope this helps!


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

RetrieverNation said:


> I just read this entire post and I hope what i'm adding will help with the OP. It seems like for the most part this thread has gone off topic with the age old discussion of "to pressure or not to pressure" Foremost, I think any newcomer asking the question the OP did needs to address the question of what do you want out of your dog or what do you plan to do with him? For the most part, the replies have been from folks who want to take their dogs to higher levels of training than most people really desire. These high levels of training require advanced techniques and a dog that can accept them. A lot of my friends who have "hunting dogs" and "hunt" with them, have produced a dog, that in their eyes, meets their needs. I put "hinting dog" and "Hunt" in parenthesis because those words alone have a wide range of definitions based on what your expectation of hunting truly is, and believe me, there is a very wide range here. These dogs of my friends have not been introduced to pressure as discussed here but they do find the bird and bring the bird back most of the time. I have given up trying to explain the concepts of pressure and higher level training to people that simply do not expect their dog to do this. The reasons for not using pressure has a wide range as well. I think I have run into most of them with the "my poor child" people and the "I'll call animal cruelty on you if I see you shock that dog" people being on the most non-understanding and unwilling to change their view side. These same people will be the ones who allow their dog to wear it's collar more like a necklace than a tightly fitted control mechanism and if for some reason if they do use an e-collar, it would definitely be used inconsistantly and almost never will the collar be placed on the dog correctly. From what I have seen in watching the videos and being in live testing/trialing/training situations is that the dog is constantly being built up and then broken down as a way to condition the dog. Its a process, and any dog in training, at any one time, can be found to be in one of these cycles. The trainer who sees his dog bugging, cowering, averting pressure and etc. will most likely step back and allow time for the dog to be built back up from that low point. If not, most likely the dog will wash out in the higher level programs. Allowing a dog to go through these cycles will show you where the holes are. Having a dog that is so good and smart that it does not make many mistakes, if any at all, will most likely have more holes in its training than a dog that is conditioned for the good, the bad and the ugly. I can use force fetch as an example of this pretty easily. Just take an un-force fetched dog out to hunt woodcock and ask him to pick up a freshly killed one, even though all the dog has ever picked up is ducks or pheasants. Most likely the non FF dog will not pick it up and no amount of praise or happiness will get the dog to change its mind. Another example would be the the pheasant which you just shot at close range and blew its guts out. Most likely, the dog will lick the guts and not want to pick it up. So my point is, some people dont expect their dog to hunt woodcock or pick up a nasty half blown up pheasant, but their dog still hunts and retrieves for them. What your definition of hunting is and what you expect out of a hunting dog is where it all starts. Hope this helps!



Retriever Nation-- Just trying to help out. At post number 84, the reading get's a bit tedious, I read most of it though. I know you put some time into the post, appreciate that--but --that was long winded. Maybe it is just me that has a short attention span.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

RetNation, Not trying to be critical but trying to help. A few paragraph breaks would make it a lot easier for us old guys to read your post. I had a hard time focusing on so many words all run together.

edit: changed some to so.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

ImNotaSpammer said:


> I'm curious to know if a person CAN follow the Smartwork program without using an e-collar or if an e-collar is essential to this program.


No, an e-collar is not essential to Smartwork. You simply must read past the dialogue regarding its use. Good training is good training 

What has been missed in much of this discussion is that much has been learned about dogs and about training over time. Along the way refinements have been made - not only to training techniques, but especially in the psychology of it. A couple of those advancements include a fuller understanding of the whole dog; beyond just his outward behavior. What motivates them, for better or for worse? Such intellectual depth is, I believe, largely what set Rex Carr apart from many of his peers.

Pressure has been villanized by many who simply didn't understand its appropriate and fair use over the years. Sadly, that has been perpetuated as a marketing strategy by some; keeping ignorance alive, and misguiding many along the way who just wanted to be good trainers with empathy toward their dogs. That's a good thing...right up to the point where progress in fair and effective training is stunted by misinformation. Whether the trainers goals are high enough to call for more modern methods is entirely individual, and should be respected. But such choices don't negate the intrinsic value of training techniques that involve pressure. 

Evan


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> See my replies in bold. In any event, our back-and-forth doesn't have much to do with my original and still unanswered question of what do you do with a refusal at the distances we are typically talking about if you don't have some sort of force framework in place to deal with it. Claimsadj summed it up much more elegantly than I could.



Rookie,

I apologize for trying to offer some advice. What I saw in your post was exactly the same thing that someone else saw in a different post you started in September. You stated in that post that he clearly knows what you are asking, but does the wrong thing. You once again stated the same thing in this thread, but in a different situation. 

You are working with your pup, and you are doing a great job (I assume, as you have already indicated that I do not know you or your dog), but you are saying that he knows what you are asking him to do, however, he keeps doing the wrong thing. If he keeps doing the wrong thing, then he does not know what you are asking him. Just because you line your 18 month old pup up and say back does it mean he will go straight. No matter how much FTP you do, it will not make him go straight in every single situation. You have to take into account factors (the decoys) and many other factors that are out there. 

The reason that the FTP issue you are using as a correction is working, is because you have done such a great job at force to pile. He knows that when he gets a back nick back, that it means go to the pile. FTP is not a drill to teach go in a straight line. There are other drills for that, but then again, it appears that you already know this, so I will not offer any other suggestions to you.

Good luck to you and your pup.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> RetNation, Not trying to be critical but trying to help. A few paragraph breaks would make it a lot easier for us old guys to read your post. I had a hard time focusing on some many words all run together.


Tactfully said. I was trying to think of a way to point out how paragraphs could help without sounding like an a--, you did a good job. I think RetNation had some good input there, it was just too hard sift through and read online.

John


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

jhenion, have you had the opportunity to spend a considerable amount of time with a _good_ trainer that uses the collar and "force" training? I'm not asking to be snarky, I'm asking because when I first got into training retrievers I had many of the same thoughts you did about the use of the e-collar, force fetch and "force" training for dogs that seemingly were doing the work without force.

I was very lucky to be able to spend a lot of time with a pro that happened to have a bunch of young dogs on his truck going through FF, FTP etc... while I was there. I was amazed by both my ignorance about the use of the collar and the reaction it had on the dogs. What I saw were very happy, well trained dogs that absolutely loved to do the work because they were first taught what was expected, lots of attrition was used and the collar was only used in a situation that was fair to the dog. 

Like with anything, seeing a tool used in the hands of a true craftsman is a sight to behold. Seeing the same tools used by an unknowledgable person could easily convince one that the tools are worthless.

Just my .02


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Ya know, wolves never treat each other with punishment; they are always kind to each other!


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

It's a fallacy to think that only PR is needed to train high-level dogs (and even house dogs). 

"No" or a mean glance or some other form of communication that conveys "you better not do that" or "don't do that" is always present - as Jennifer knows and has mentioned already. 

The issue is over the type, duration and intensity of punishment or negative reinforcement (consider these two concepts in their broadest sense). It must be used; and what is used, for how long, and at what intensity is up to each person and the particular dog they are interacting with.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have just about every tape on the market and I will tell you that no video is going to train your dog. the assertion was put out there that other tapes use trained dogs as examples, can't find a video where that is true. I've also come to appreciate that spending 30 minutes watching one of these video trainers will tell you more than watching their video's. There are a lot of inherently impossible things to teach in a video because you are dealing with unique individual dogs in unique circumstances with constantly changing environments. There is value in video's, otherwise i wouldn't waste my money on them but its not nearly the value many people put on them.

/Paul


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Is it true some trainers (prior to e-collars) used sling shots and rocks for corrections?


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

road kill said:


> Is it true some trainers (prior to e-collars) used sling shots and rocks for corrections?


Yes it is. Bird shot was also used.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

And even now in the e-collar era, trainers still go out in the water to "teach" a dog. ;-)

The first year I got into this nonsense (jk) one of our HRC club members went into the pond with his clothes on to help his HR dog with the lesson.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

road kill said:


> Is it true some trainers (prior to e-collars) used sling shots and rocks for corrections?


That is absurd. Rocks and bird shot could injure a dogs eyes. The good ones only used walnuts.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Dman said:


> Yes it is. Bird shot was also used.


And 12 ga loads of #8 shot, plus 6-battery stock prods. I'd love to tell you how rare that was...but it wasn't. Not glamorous to think about. But it's true.

I really like e-collars.

Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

road kill said:


> Is it true some trainers (prior to e-collars) used sling shots and rocks for corrections?


That is true.

It is also true that some Amish trainers choose NOT to use slingshots, and other methods. They instead choose to "tennis shoe" train - stopping the dog and waddling out there to have a talk, or whatever.

I have chosen to refer to this "tennis shoe" approach as "indirect pressure with P!&&-poor timing". I believe many dogs endure a far greater amount of mental pressure sorting through this method, than a well-timed, well-applied program that utilizes an e-collar.

The fact is that any one of us is capable of doing a poor job training a dog with any number of training tools. 

Similarly, the best trainers in the land using an e-collar, would produce wonderfully trained animals without if they had to.

Like /Paul wrote, the video only shows one way of doing it in any one scene. 

For example, with the dog in the video, Mike Lardy may say to treat refusals to hold with an ear pinch and a "fetch" command. I promise you that in real life, Mike may make an entirely different read on a dog in a certain situation. Videos can't teach you that.

Chris


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Evan said:


> And 12 ga loads of #8 shot, plus 6-battery stock prods. I'd love to tell you how rare that was...but it wasn't. Not glamorous to think about. But it's true.
> 
> I really like e-collars.
> 
> Evan


Had a friend in Alaska back in the late '80's get her dog back from a well known "lower 48" pro. She took the dog to the vet for hip x-rays to send to OFA as that was just becoming popular then... Upon looking at the x-rays with the vet, she asked "Doc, what are all those little spots in the x-ray?" The vet looked up and said... "birdshot". Must have been working on sitting to the whistle...


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Evan said:


> And 12 ga loads of #8 shot, plus 6-battery stock prods. I'd love to tell you how rare that was...but it wasn't. Not glamorous to think about. But it's true.
> 
> I really like e-collars.
> 
> Evan


I saw it way too often many years ago.

Thank goodness for the advancement and improvements in newer e-collars as well.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Similarly, the best trainers in the land using an e-collar, would produce wonderfully trained animals without if they had to.
> Chris


One of the first ones that comes to my mind is Larry McMurry and Pepper.
He now trains his new dog with a collar


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I think there are quite a few of us that started campaigning retrievers in the 80's that saw retrievers "walking on eggshells" and therefore avoided training with the collar.

I remember when Mike Lardy's articles and VHS stuff came out. I rationalized how my dog did the same stuff and may way was just as good. (Amish)

When our crop of "original" his and hers dogs all died off, I had a brand new FT-bred lab to train. And when I decided to open my mind, I realized I could not afford NOT to embrace Mike Lardy's approach and utilize a collar.

Years ago, there were quotations in the old NAHRA News articles about a California trainer whose name escapes me right now. It was a Tri-Tronics Ad (Chuck Breslin, maybe was his name??) And the quote was "they had to drag me kicking and screaming into the 20th Century". 

It took me several years longer than that, but I eventually could relate to what that ad was saying. 

If I had to train another retriever sans-collar, I could go back to it. But, I don't want to. 

Thanks to my wife's love of rescue dogs, we're back up to a pack of 4 in the house. Only one is my FT retriever. The others are non-retrievers (although they're trained like labs). I routinely walk all 4 off lead with no issue. I'm just now getting ready to give the TriTronics Classic 70 a try. This product is capable of handling up to 6 dogs at once. I'll be posting reviews on my use of this Classic product, updated to G3 technology.

chris


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> That is true.
> 
> It is also true that some Amish trainers choose NOT to use slingshots, and other methods. They instead choose to "tennis shoe" train - stopping the dog and waddling out there to have a talk, or whatever.
> 
> ...


Highlighting and bolding mine: 

I believe this is as true a statement as was ever uttered. By the time a tennis-shoe trainer gets out to the dog to try to "talk" to the dog, the dog, for the most part, doesn't have a clue what the lesson is.

A well timed, fair and meaningful correction with an e collar is a far more humane method than having the dog sit 2 or 300 yards away waiting for it's "trainer" to get out there, all time the wondering and worrying "what's all this about" and then not understanding the correction. 

We well meaning but misguided humans just don't seem to get that dogs are not people.......they're dogs and deserve to be communicated with on their level.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

labguy said:


> Highlighting mine: I believe this is as true a statement as was ever uttered. By the time a tennis-shoe trainer gets out to the dog to try to "talk" to the dog, the dog, for the most part, doesn't have a clue what the lesson is.
> 
> _*A well timed, fair and meaningful correction with an e collar is a far more humane method than having the dog sit 2 or 300 yards away waiting for it's "trainer" to get out there, all time the wondering and worrying "what's all this about" and then not understanding the correction.
> 
> We well meaning but misguided humans just don't seem to get that dogs are not people.......they're dogs and deserve to be communicated with on their level*_.


Agreed,

And I think the human interpretation, when the huffing, puffing, angry trainer gets out there is that he/she sees a cowering, worried dog. And if the dog is cowering and worried, they must know what's coming and why. 

I think in many cases, by the time the trainer gets there, the dog just realizes that the angry trainer has come out again to have a talk. But that doesn't mean the dog clearly understands what motivated it and how to connect the late timing discussion with the refusal (or other behavior deeming "correction").

The timing with a modern program using indirect pressure is wonderful. Get it over with immediately and move on. This combined with attrition can be a wonderful thing.

Chris


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

I am glad that the only way I learned to train dogs was with judicial use of an e-collar.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Watchm said:


> I am glad that the only way I learned to train dogs was with judicial use of an e-collar.


I get the feeling that the authors of the popular programs have trained both with an ecollar and without. I think that is one of the reasons they are superior trainers. I am glad that I know more than one method.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> I get the feeling that the authors of the popular programs have trained both with an ecollar and without. I think that is one of the reasons they are superior trainers. I am glad that I know more than one method.


Which method do you prefer?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

gdgnyc said:


> I get the feeling that the authors of the popular programs have trained both with an ecollar and without. I think that is one of the reasons they are superior trainers. I am glad that I know more than one method.


I believe/know you are correct. One of the "most" prominent trainers of the day/today used a bullwhip on the line to get a creeping dog.
I personaly had trained the tennis shoe way for 20 years, then was educated in the use of the e-collar indirect pressure by a very prominent amateur who had trained with Rex Carr. She had recently turned pro and always told me when you start to dig a hole go back to the conventional method for a a short time and get off the e-collar. (not talking about shoot, boot, electrocute) Simplfy without pressure. It has worked for me for the past 25 years and continue to break it down when needed. So it does pay to know both ways.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Agreed,
> 
> And I think the human interpretation, when the huffing, puffing, angry trainer gets out there is that he/she sees a cowering, worried dog. And if the dog is cowering and worried, they must know what's coming and why.
> 
> ...


Great post Chris and in my limited knowledge of over 30 years training these wonderful dogs, the ablolute best, most fair approach for a successfull, happy dog that can do whatever is asked of it.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Agreed,
> 
> And I think the human interpretation, when the huffing, puffing, angry trainer gets out there is that he/she sees a cowering, worried dog. And if the dog is cowering and worried, they must know what's coming and why.
> 
> ...


Great post Chris. In my limited experience of over 30 years training these wonderful dogs, this is the absolute best, most fair approach that exists today.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Ding ding ding!!!!!!! Times a million


Chris Atkinson said:


> Agreed,
> 
> And I think the human interpretation, when the huffing, puffing, angry trainer gets out there is that he/she sees a cowering, worried dog. And if the dog is cowering and worried, they must know what's coming and why.
> 
> ...


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> That is absurd. Rocks and bird shot could injure a dogs eyes. The good ones only used walnuts.



I tried hitting one of mine w/ a walnut today actually. I guess my "follow thru" needs work as I hit the wrong dog.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> I tried hitting one of mine w/ a walnut today actually. I guess my "follow thru" needs work as I hit the wrong dog.


Train one at a time Anne


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Blaming e-collars for poor training practices is like blaming Rosie's spoon!!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Agreed,
> 
> And I think the human interpretation, when the huffing, puffing, angry trainer gets out there is that he/she sees a cowering, worried dog. And if the dog is cowering and worried, they must know what's coming and why.
> 
> ...


Chris agree. I certainly can't be bothered to charge out and get angry. Better to walk out quietly. Then I call him to me and whistle sit him, give him the back command while he is in front sit position. I would not let the loopy sit reoccur but would do some pile work. 

My take on him doing a loopy sit is he may be getting tired or little bit of no effort. One or the other there are positive ways to correct him if that walk out did not work. And if you so chose you could FTP and work on IP with whistle sit to get him coming around correctly. 

Usually when I get out there Tar has the look of "oh, oh" b/c he knows something is up and puts his paw up to shake my hand, as if to say "okay what's up?". I choose to go light on the FTP with him.

My Cosmo pup on the other hand I would not walk out but note it and next outing do pile work and with some IP.

The next time out in the field after pile work and I know they have understood what I want, then I would be inclined to use IP for the next loopy sit either a buzz or a nic on low with "sit" command simultaneous. 

It depends on the dog and my dogs are still young and learning!! So I give them every chance to succeed and understand me because it will be me that screws up with the communicating as I learn!Some days I think we are there but...

I am just agreeing it is a waste of time to huff and puff out to the dog. You get no where and vent your anger on the dog that does not realize why you are doing so. IMHO


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I am just agreeing it is a waste of time to huff and puff out to the dog. You get no where and vent your anger on the dog that does not realize why you are doing so. IMHO


I certainly agree that anger should be avoided at all cost. It's destructive in all forms. However, the tennis shoe, "walking out there" methodology became a relic of training history for good reason. It's precious time lost, when timing is such a critical issue in effective training. The more closely a correction, or praise for that matter, is timed with the event, the more effective the training. Dogs live in the moment, and the moment can so easily be lost.

Evan


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

I haven’t read this entire thread in detail, but to address the OPs concern about the dog’s tail between his legs ...

We all want a dog to be “tail-waggin happy” all the time. But is that practical as a top priority?

What we really want is a “*trained*” dog that is “tail-waggin happy” all the time. That’s what we all strive for and if you go to a Field Trial and watch the All Age dogs work, you will agree that nearly all of us achieve that. It is obvious the dogs love what they do and are happy doing it. And that the handlers love the dogs.

But do you think these dogs looked completely “happy” throughout the entire training process? Not hardly.

Have you ever sent your kindergartner off to school pouting?
Have you ever coaxed your youngster to jump into the pool?
Have you ever played a sport? How did all your practices go?
Ever been to boot camp? I’ve seen grown men cry.

Even if you could go through life never having to do something you didn’t want to do, you would still not be happy all the time. That’s not the point of life. _And if you have a dog that is happy ALL the time, you’re probably doing mostly entertaining and not much training.
_
Learning something unnatural and unfamiliar is stressful and causes anxiety. Most of these things we teach a dog are unnatural and unfamiliar. Even walking at heel with a rope around the neck is unnatural for a dog. Your job as a trainer is to work the dog through that anxiety so the dog can learn and grow. Not avoid it.

There will be many, many times you will be going through something new and unnatural as you advance your dog. As he gains trust in you and you become more skilled in your techniques, it will improve but there will always be a bit of this. If there isn’t, you probably aren’t asking much of your dogs in terms of what most of us here are talking about.

Don’t take a snapshot in time of a dog learning something new and unnatural and think you can critique the training process on that basis. Watch how the dog is trained through these difficulties and look at the finished product.

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

What an excellent post, JS!

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Evan said:


> I certainly agree that anger should be avoided at all cost. It's destructive in all forms. However, the tennis shoe, "walking out there" methodology became a relic of training history for good reason. It's precious time lost, when timing is such a critical issue in effective training. The more closely a correction, or praise for that matter, is timed with the event, the more effective the training. Dogs live in the moment, and the moment can so easily be lost.
> 
> Evan


Evan Thanks for your reply. Like I said would not bother with my Cosmo pup. You are right walking out is a waste of time especially at my age. I only give my Tar one time unless we are doing lining drills. It is just something we have always done since a pup. Cosmo is different and I use IP nicely, but first I make him understand by going to pile work. Thanks. Maybe I did not explain correctly I just want them to understand first what is expected.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I'd take a look at the history or success of those espousing training without an e-collar before I chose that method. Can you train a dog to be reliable without an e-collar? I'm quite sure you can. But is it practical or efficient (and fair to the dog)? Maybe not. I could ride a bike or a horse from New York City to Los Angeles, but it wouldn't be practical or efficient. It would take forever, I'd get sunburned, I'd get rained on and it would probably be a little bit dangerous.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> Yeah, the thread title is a little disrespectfull, but it led to a very good discussion.
> 
> As for me, I'm a conventional trainer as most on here are, but though skeptical, I'll keep an open mind and wish those that go another route do well with their dog. The only issue I have with some is their assumption that my way of training dogs is abusive, when I believe the opposite is true. It is my belief that the greatest boon to teaching field trial Goldens, a breed that has been considered relatively soft over the years, is the modern e-collar. In comparison to the old ways that were somewhat medieval, a well timed correction of appropriate intensity, for that dog and that situation, is much easier for an intellegent dog, such as a Golden Retriever to understand and deal with.
> 
> John


Amen AND the use of conventional attrition with or without a burn. Works good with Labs too.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Charles C. said:


> I'd take a look at the history or success of those espousing training without an e-collar before I chose that method. Can you train a dog to be reliable without an e-collar? I'm quite sure you can. But is it practical or efficient (and fair to the dog)? Maybe not. I could ride a bike or a horse from New York City to Los Angeles, but it wouldn't be practical or efficient. It would take forever, I'd get sunburned, I'd get rained on and it would probably be a little bit dangerous.


I agree with this premise. But suppose there is another premise. Suppose there were advances in positive reinforcement training within the last 2 years that could really make the difference in training my particular dog while used in conjunction with time honored lessons and drills used by Lardy, Graham, Cassity, etc. 

I'm betting that most who've commented on this post do not follow the latest techniques and advancements in learning being achieved by the pos. reinforcement crowd. Not that I think you should or that I'm an expert on them either. Far from. But I am learning and evolving and have been truly amazed at what these people can get dogs to do - and quickly - and at a distance. I've also been amazed at what I've been able to get my dogs to do with these techniques in a short period of time. 

My goal is to keep learning what is possible, keep listening to all who have proven that their methods work in the retriever world and see what I can do with a mixture of the techniques that satisfies me and might help me build a process I can use with my future dogs without using compulsion. 

Saying that there are only two ways: 1. the old tennis shoe/bird shot way or the 2. e-collar way Is not logical. New information is developing in almost every field of knowledge. Not everyone cares or wants to go to the effort to explore new ways. That's how I feel about a lot of things, like cooking - don't care about new techniques, I do it the old hard way.

But I happen to be interested in what's happening in the last couple of years in the pos reinf crowd and incorporating that, while not incorporating compulsion work. 

Jen


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

While I couldn't agree more that training with a collar is my first choice. With that being said, a lot can be learned by removing the collar. I know a lot of people take the button out of their hands and the first words from their mouth is, "what do I do?". That tells me they barely understand why they are pressing the button in the first place.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Jhenion said:


> I agree with this premise. But suppose there is another premise. Suppose there were advances in positive reinforcement training within the last 2 years that could really make the difference in training my particular dog while used in conjunction with time honored lessons and drills used by Lardy, Graham, Cassity, etc.
> 
> I'm betting that most who've commented on this post do not follow the latest techniques and advancements in learning being achieved by the pos. reinforcement crowd. Not that I think you should or that I'm an expert on them either. Far from. But I am learning and evolving and have been truly amazed at what these people can get dogs to do - and quickly - and at a distance. I've also been amazed at what I've been able to get my dogs to do with these techniques in a short period of time.
> 
> ...


I was more comparing training with an e-collar versus the tennis shoe type training. I agree with what you're saying in theory, but I have yet to see a positive reinforcement only dog that wasn't totally out of control in a field setting. I'm sure they exist, but I've never seen one.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jhenion said:


> I agree with this premise. But suppose there is another premise. Suppose there were advances in positive reinforcement training within the last 2 years that could really make the difference in training my particular dog while used in conjunction with time honored lessons and drills used by Lardy, Graham, Cassity, etc.
> 
> I'm betting that most who've commented on this post do not follow the latest techniques and advancements in learning being achieved by the pos. reinforcement crowd. Not that I think you should or that I'm an expert on them either. Far from. But I am learning and evolving and have been truly amazed at what these people can get dogs to do - and quickly - and at a distance. I've also been amazed at what I've been able to get my dogs to do with these techniques in a short period of time.
> 
> ...


Thinking outside the box on RTF is often not understood and not well received. Good luck.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Thinking outside the box on RTF is often not understood and not well received. Good luck.


That's the truth...


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Jhenion said:


> I agree with this premise. But suppose there is another premise. Suppose there were advances in positive reinforcement training within the last 2 years that could really make the difference in training my particular dog while used in conjunction with time honored lessons and drills used by Lardy, Graham, Cassity, etc.
> 
> I'm betting that most who've commented on this post do not follow the latest techniques and advancements in learning being achieved by the pos. reinforcement crowd. Not that I think you should or that I'm an expert on them either. Far from. But I am learning and evolving and have been truly amazed at what these people can get dogs to do - and quickly - and at a distance. I've also been amazed at what I've been able to get my dogs to do with these techniques in a short period of time.
> 
> ...


Jennifer

I would really appreciate if you could point us to some of these new sources and new techniques being used by the Pos. reinforcement gang. I have studied learning theory behaviour for 40 years and I simply can't find any great "new" stuff in the last few years. 


What is new is that a bunch of people are jumping on this positive band wagon (although not for advanced retriever field work). What is also new is that a bunch of "trainers" are hanging out their shingle and with excellent marketing and a hungry "pet" audience they are doing well in promoting the positve only way. 


I believe I could now train a retriever to relatively high levels, say a Master Hunter or a Qualifying, quite easily without using an e-collar and even with mostly positive reinforcement (There is no such thing as a trained dog that hasn't had some negative reinforcement or punishment). However, I believe that the training methods that I promote are more effective, more efficient and yes more humane than the positive methods that I have seen when it comes to advanced field work. By advanced, I mean a dog that can do field trial level triples, handle with diversions and can deal (go straight) with most factors. 

I could put a dog thru a Lardy type "Basics" curriculum without an e-collar quite easily. However, that dog would not likely be prepared for some transition and then Advanced work. My positive reinforcement tools would be found lacking in the advanced field work, especially on water. Both the dog and I would experience too much frustration and too many set-backs. I am not a short cut artist but that method would take a great deal more time and achieve a lower standard of performance. My relationship with my dog would not be any better despite that criteria being marketed by the positive pros.

I think you said something like you were willing to try and accept failure because of your method. Most of us that field trial are not willing to try a method that we think won't work and that is not proven for All-age work. We will incorporate anyhing that we think can make training more effective, efficient and humane. Thus, my request for the sources of a better way.


PS. Afterthought to those posters that think a dog has to experience tail tucking training at some point in their e-collar program, I disagree. Dogs can be trained wth compulsion and reliability and with happy tail-wagging. With all methods there will be days when dogs get confused or uncertain-that is different than a dog who is afraid and cowering. When I read/observe some of the methods and "here's what I do" by newer trainers here on RTF or elsewhere, it is no wonder that their dogs have performance problems. In most cases it is not the program they follow (ie, the curriculum) that is the problem but the implementation and the methods. It is very frustrating to see what some of these dogs are put though-and i don't mean just the pressure. You can grind a dog down real easily without using your e-collar.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Dennis,

As I've said in several of my posts, I don't have the answers you're looking for. I'm not an expert and I haven't proven anything with my dog, she is a week shy of 9 months old. Also not here to compete with you or sell my ideas to anyone. 

What I can say is that I've watched people like Janice Gunn and several others make great strides with her well-bred field dogs within the last 6 months using pos reinf. Also have watched many seminars from the last two years' worth of Clicker Expo conferences that absolutely amaze me. Maybe you're not amazed, sounds like you've been studying this for 40 years and perhaps know more than these people do. Maybe you haven't attended one of these conferences or seen their video seminars on the web. Can't really give you any particular Wow examples right now as I'm at work and don't have time to call any up. Perhaps tomorrow when I have more time.

But I do think new applications of science are being made as more people are getting interested in marker/clicker training and trying new things with it and other theories. 

As a side note, I do use some punishment in my training and my dogs are very well behaved in the house, business, field and hotels we travel to. Not sure any of us can escape using punishment, whether we realize it or not.

Jennifer


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Are these people having success in trials or the higher level of hunt tests?


Jhenion said:


> Dennis,
> 
> As I've said in several of my posts, I don't have the answers you're looking for. I'm not an expert and I haven't proven anything with my dog, she is a week shy of 9 months old. Also not here to compete with you or sell my ideas to anyone.
> 
> ...


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## DenverB2B (Feb 22, 2009)

Well it took me 13 pages of reading to finally throw my .02 in. We or most all of us have seen that dog at a HT or FT that comes to the line tail tucked and scared to death and I know I just cringe when I see it. Its not pretty and very apparent that the dog is not a happy camper. Have said that. A dog can get that way no matter what method one chooses to use. I work in a prison and fix security eletronics. When I get a call that something is not working the way it is supossed to work the standing joke is "operator error" and 9 out of 10 times it is just that. So whatever way you choose to train your dog and whatever tools you have in the drawer if you dont know how to use them you are not being fair to your dog and are likely to end up with one of those dogs none of us want. So in short the ole tennis shoe treatment vs e


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## DenverB2B (Feb 22, 2009)

I got cut short. 

...-collar or any other system. Operator Error is where I see the problem.


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## Hells Canyon (Nov 1, 2012)

My dogs tend to be a bit uncertain of them selves when they are learning new skills, especially basic obedience. But after they learn the game they return to their regular happy selves. I believe that working through training issues with your dog and using the appropriate amount of pressure builds the relationship and trust, therefore their attitude improves. Strictly IMO.


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Jennifer
> 
> I would really appreciate if you could point us to some of these new sources and new techniques being used by the Pos. reinforcement gang. I have studied learning theory behaviour for 40 years and I simply can't find any great "new" stuff in the last few years.
> 
> ...



Thanks Dennis....So well said!

Chris


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Jhenion said:


> Dennis,
> 
> As I've said in several of my posts, I don't have the answers you're looking for. I'm not an expert and I haven't proven anything with my dog, she is a week shy of 9 months old. Also not here to compete with you or sell my ideas to anyone.
> 
> ...


I think we've discussed this here on RTF before and Janice chimed in. I've only met Janice once and didn't discuss her training methods. I know Janice is a highly successful OBED trainer. I have sat down with John a time or two and I know he uses conventional e-collar training for his field trial dogs. I do remember John giving credit to Janice for his dogs overall line manners and steadiness during one discussion. Stanley most certainly was not trained with clickers although, not to say he hasn't been introduced to them? I don't know the answer to that question. 

For those of you not familiar with who Jennifer is talking about: 
http://tntkennels.com/tnt-retrievers/current-stars/stanley-steamer


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

_But I do think new applications of science are being made as more people are getting interested in marker/clicker training and trying new things with it and other theories. 

_I'm sold that there is new gimmicks being marketed, but the basics of learning theory are known and have been for a few decades. What is still being uncovered are the explicit neural interactions, and that research continues and will for the conceivable future. 

Sure, it may turn out that the way we teach Fido to do advanced work is to hook Fido to a visual medium to simulate drills and conditions, but even then, Fido has to go into the field and perform (and we know that our techniques as discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseum will have to be employed).

I wish Jennifer well on her journey of becoming an advanced retriever trainer and handler.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Thank you Phil! And thanks to everyone who has been encouraging, despite being skepical. Really appreciate the well wishes!!!

Claimsadj: So far there are only some jams in the Qual and a few SHs as far as I know. And not all of the pos reinf peeps are doing the same thing. Some use supposedly zero punishment and in one of those cases I heard their dog is quite unruly as far as manners off line. Another is using only Pos, Reinf but their dogs have superior manners. Some are using mainly pos reinf with a little punishment, but none of them are using compulsion training. 

Jen


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

PhilBernardi said:


> _But I do think new applications of science are being made as more people are getting interested in marker/clicker training and trying new things with it and other theories.
> 
> _I'm sold that there is new gimmicks being marketed, but the basics of learning theory are known and have been for a few decades. What is still being uncovered are the explicit neural interactions, and that research continues and will for the conceivable future.
> 
> ...


Is Fido in you avatar wearing one of those neural interactor gizmos? If so where can I buy the stock.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

PhilBernardi said:


> I wish Jennifer well on her journey of becoming an advanced retriever trainer and handler.


As do I. I hope she does well, and keeps her eyes (and mind) open. I hope each of us does the same!

Evan


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

And if she gets her girl to a competitive level with her ideas, I want to be on the puppy list!

Keep in touch. Price will be irrelevant. ;-)

JS


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dennis, speaking only for myself and my comments, my point, and my suspicion is that many newer trainers, and I suspect the OP, see a dog display *confusion and uncertainty* and _mistake_ it for *fear and cowering*. Particularly if that assessment is made simply watching a demo dog in a video.

You and I know it is a rare dog that does not display that behavior from time to time in training.

JS


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

duk4me said:


> Is Fido in you avatar wearing one of those neural interactor gizmos? If so where can I buy the stock.



Tim,

You have to have contacts at NASA to get such a gizmo. 


p.s. Don't tell anyone, but it's not as good as a clicker. :mrgreen:


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

It needs to be written (probably the 10th time in this thread) that one will see a dog or two cower. Not all dogs are alike, some much more sensitive than others. I know, I got one of them (sensitive one).


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

I credit Robert Milner for teaching me about positive training and opening my eyes to canine behavior. I am a million times the trainer I was before learning from him. The man is not popular among this crowd and I know why.

However, I am back to the e collar, and after learning both sides, more comfortable about it than ever. Teaching using positive reinforcement and clicker is extremely fast and easy. However, I found the need for correction..whether it a choker chain, heeling stick, or ecollar. 

IMO, the easiest training I have done is Hillmanns program....even though I don't fully understand the science behind it. Fun, easy, and fool proof.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

This has been an interesting thread with several good posts representing varying perspectives ... thanks to all of you.

Jennifer, you've mentioned compulsion training several times. I'm not sure I know the precise definition of compulsion training. Does compulsion ≡ negative reinforcement? 

Thanks,
Jim


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

JS said:


> And if she gets her girl to a competitive level with her ideas, I want to be on the puppy list!
> 
> Keep in touch. Price will be irrelevant. ;-)
> 
> JS


Wow! That's enough incentive for me right there!!!

Thanks Evan for the well wishes, too!

Jen


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

T-Pines said:


> This has been an interesting thread with several good posts representing varying perspectives ... thanks to all of you.
> 
> Jennifer, you've mentioned compulsion training several times. I'm not sure I know the precise definition of compulsion training. Does compulsion ≡ negative reinforcement?
> 
> ...


I may have actually pulled that term out of my left ear, to be honest. But in my definition, it is the training using force while the dog is in motion toward the goal. Example is force to pile, where dog is already in motion toward the pile and trainer turns on the burn and says "back". Or, during walking fetch - stick fetch, where dog is at heel in motion and in process of fetching and trainers hits rear with heeling stick. Or force to water in early stages of swim-by where dog is in route to water and trainer turns on the burn til dog gets into water. In these cases the collar nicks or burn are to create a compulsion in the dog to hasten to the goal and try to escape the stimuli. At least that's how I understand it.

Jen


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> While I couldn't agree more that training with a collar is my first choice. With that being said, a lot can be learned by removing the collar. I know a lot of people take the button out of their hands and the first words from their mouth is, "what do I do?". That tells me they barely understand why they are pressing the button in the first place.


True statement. The dog has to understand why he is getting the correction and you have to know why you are giving and as well how to give the correction. IMHO


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

FYI This is one of the clicker collars out on the market but as you can see works to 250 yds. Maybe there is one farther not sure! Actually you can get it from Gun Dogs!!

The pro’s choice for effective remote training. This Innotek technology is at its finest in the Smart Dog Professional Trainer. Developed by professional trainers, yet easy to use for novice trainers as well, SD-200A brings a new level of consistency, flexibility and reliability to remote training. The transmitter lets the trainer instantly select from one of 15 stimulation levels, with three levels of availability at any time. This broad range of levels ensures that just the right amount of correction is used. An LCD readout allows instant verification of the selected level and guarantees consistency. A convenient clicker button picks up where the manual clicker training program leaves off, allowing the trainer to continue reinforcing good behavior while backing it up with stimulation when appropriate. A tone button is also available when a quick reminder is needed. The water-resistant, antenna-less collar uses up to 250 yards of range. 

Features:
Innotek’s latest training technology
15 stimulation levels with LCD
Up to 250 yards of range
Clicker tone button for positive reinforcement
Tone options for advanced training

http://www.gundogsonline.com/dog-training-collars/innotek-training-collars/smart-dog-sd-200a.html


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## tazman7 (Dec 8, 2011)

This has turned into an extremely long thread that has obviously been sidetracked, but there were some good posts nonetheless. In my original post one could assume that I am against any form of "firm" reinforcement, such as e-collar, heeling sticks, boot to the a$$, or a "talking to". This is not the case. Basically what I meant was, the dog appears scared to death and that is not what I want out of my dog. Throughout the thread people made a few good points on breaking the dog down and building them back up, which makes perfect sense, so thanks for clarifying that. Even though this is my first dog, I have learned in the seven months of having him that he needs a talking to every now and again, but from what I have been told he is doing extremely well. The problem is these "reinforcements" dont seem to bother him, he just wants you to toss it again. I basically just need some help from people with a better knowledge of this stuff.(Waiting for a call back on a somewhat local training club)

I think half of my problem is, that I see videos people post on here of their young dogs retrieving and compare them to my pup and you don't see them doing anything "wrong" like he currently does. (Runs past me before returning to heel- taking off like a speeding bullet, hitting me in the face with sod, but then lolly gagging around swinging the dummy around on the return- doesnt always listen to "here" so has to be shown, even though I did the CC exactly like the video showed and he did great.)


And to Evan, sorry for the title of the thread. Ill try to get it changed. I didn't mean to bash your program by any means.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Title of thread changed from "Smartworks- not that impressed" to " Reinforcing the dog's behavior" by OP's request.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Title of thread changed from "Smartworks- not that impressed" to " Reinforcing the dog's behavior" by OP's request.


Well thats a relief. I thought the 12 pack had got to me.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> FYI This is one of the clicker collars out on the market but as you can see works to 250 yds. Maybe there is one farther not sure! Actually you can get it from Gun Dogs!!
> 
> The pro’s choice for effective remote training. This Innotek technology is at its finest in the Smart Dog Professional Trainer. Developed by professional trainers, yet easy to use for novice trainers as well, SD-200A brings a new level of consistency, flexibility and reliability to remote training. The transmitter lets the trainer instantly select from one of 15 stimulation levels, with three levels of availability at any time. This broad range of levels ensures that just the right amount of correction is used. An LCD readout allows instant verification of the selected level and guarantees consistency. A convenient clicker button picks up where the manual clicker training program leaves off, allowing the trainer to continue reinforcing good behavior while backing it up with stimulation when appropriate. A tone button is also available when a quick reminder is needed. The water-resistant, antenna-less collar uses up to 250 yards of range.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing that Mary Lynn. Looks pretty neat.

Good on Tazman7 for changing the thread title!!!!!


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## tazman7 (Dec 8, 2011)

Jhenion said:


> Good on Tazman7 for changing the thread title!!!!!


Thanks. The thread wasn't started as a slam against Smartworks, more of a observation/question.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> FYI This is one of the clicker collars out on the market but as you can see works to 250 yds. Maybe there is one farther not sure! Actually you can get it from Gun Dogs!!
> 
> The pro’s choice for effective remote training. This Innotek technology is at its finest in the Smart Dog Professional Trainer. Developed by professional trainers, yet easy to use for novice trainers as well, SD-200A brings a new level of consistency, flexibility and reliability to remote training. The transmitter lets the trainer instantly select from one of 15 stimulation levels, with three levels of availability at any time. This broad range of levels ensures that just the right amount of correction is used. An LCD readout allows instant verification of the selected level and guarantees consistency. A convenient clicker button picks up where the manual clicker training program leaves off, allowing the trainer to continue reinforcing good behavior while backing it up with stimulation when appropriate. A tone button is also available when a quick reminder is needed. The water-resistant, antenna-less collar uses up to 250 yards of range.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately INNOTEK isn't known for their quality. You can use the beeper on your 1 mile range tritronics if you condition to it. 

But what are you clicking for? Taking the right cast? Sitting? 

I have to admit as well as I understand the use of markers, I really don't get when I would click or not, especially, since clicking still has to have a reward within a reasonable time frame?

How about an example?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Unfortunately INNOTEK isn't known for their quality. You can use the beeper on your 1 mile range tritronics if you condition to it.
> 
> But what are you clicking for? Taking the right cast? Sitting?
> 
> ...


Darrin, I bounced this off my obedience trainer. He really was OK with me trying it. After all, starting the next step in the behavior chain is a step towards completing the retrieve which is the ultimate reward. Each step brings the dog closer to the reward so the dog has the reinforcers along the way.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Title of thread changed from "Smartworks- not that impressed" to " Reinforcing the dog's behavior" by OP's request.


Good to hear. I thought I was loosing my mind.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> Unfortunately INNOTEK isn't known for their quality. You can use the beeper on your 1 mile range tritronics if you condition to it.
> 
> But what are you clicking for? Taking the right cast? Sitting?
> 
> ...


It was just FYI. I wasn't clicking for anything but showing you there are clicker collars. Yes I know I use the pager on my Dogtra.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

gdgnyc said:


> Darrin, I bounced this off my obedience trainer. He really was OK with me trying it. After all, starting the next step in the behavior chain is a step towards completing the retrieve which is the ultimate reward. Each step brings the dog closer to the reward so the dog has the reinforcers along the way.


I use a different marker for that George. Side conversation.

I still contend that using -r in the field is most effective, such as we see with the Carr based programs (Smartworks being one).


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Watchm said:


> Which method do you prefer?


I have used all methods. I am a crossover trainer. Also, I try to have an open mind when it comes to training. I used to ridicule clicker training but I no longer do. 

I suspect that you really have a working knowledge of training done without use of ecollar but prefer the ecollar.


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