# "rule" on using fresh-killed birds, and not frozen birds/AKC



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Does anyone have information on the AKC reps examining birds at events and recommending that the Club use fresh killed birds rather than frozen birds? Is this for Hunting Tests, Trials or both? If this is true, Clubs may want to adjust their entry fees for 2014 to cover the additional cost of the live birds at $13-$15 each. Looking for information and background on this, and would like to know if/when this will be effective?


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

I judged this past weekend and it was brought up by the AKC rep that was present. The club politely asked if he could show them in the rules and or regulations but did not provide such...


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Seriously, who thinks this stuff up?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

rbr said:


> Seriously, who thinks this stuff up?


Bert,
I don't know who decided that "*it was about time *"to clarify what ALL the birds that the rules required to be avaliable for use by the judges were to be used for, but I think that they were correct !!!!!!!!!

john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

if you need to provide a judge with 2 live birds per entry, to do with as she/he see fit.
and you give the judge one live and one froze. would that be a frozen *entrée *


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Trying to think if I have ever seen a frozen duck at ANY hunt test or FT.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

We don't need a new rule or clarification. What we need is ENFORCEMENT!

The existing rule is crystal clear;

"A MINIMUM of TWO LIVE BIRDS MUST BE MADE AVAILABLE for use at the discretion of the judges in ALL TEST LEVELS." I added the caps for emphasis.

There are no words in that sentence whose definition has not been assimilated by people with even a grade school education.-Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I have. And I was disgusted.-Paul


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Ducks, in the areas where we are, are already in short supply. Current cost is minimum $12.50. If costs are driven up with more demand, what is a "reasonable" entry fee that a Club should charge in order to cover costs and make a profit to pay ever-increasing taxes on grounds, club house expenses, be able to buy more land, etc.? Highest entry fee I recall has been $80 per dog per stake. Are we going to see $90-$100 entry fees? Will there be enough ducks to meet demand? Maybe Clubs will have to start using more pheasants.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

OK guys lets think about this. 2 live birds for Juniors-4 marks TOTAL, 2 birds for Senior-6 birds picked up, Master 2 birds, but if you play the entire test you are going to pick up at a minimum- 11? . So are you guys ready to pay??? I haven't been to a test yet that didnt have enough birds. I think what we need to ask is that the birds are not still cold and have their heads stuck to the body. Do any of you use frozen birds to train with??? This is a test, yes frozen birds dont fall from the sky, but lets use our heads here! The clubs need to stay in the black as well to pay for insurance, grounds,taxes etc.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Ducks, in the areas where we are, are already in short supply. Current cost is minimum $12.50. If costs are driven up with more demand, what is a "reasonable" entry fee that a Club should charge in order to cover costs and make a profit to pay ever-increasing taxes on grounds, club house expenses, be able to buy more land, etc.? Highest entry fee I recall has been $80 per dog per stake. Are we going to see $90-$100 entry fees? Will there be enough ducks to meet demand? Maybe Clubs will have to start using more pheasants.


Entry fees here are already at the $90 mark - we start with a mixture of frozen and recently killed ducks from Pros in the area shot earlier in the week - the frozen ducks are the fliers from our HT in June and are in very reasonable shape. If we started with fresh killed the day of the test then we would have to rebird every 3-4 dogs because I would NOT shoot a crap load of flyers just to get a stake started - 10 birds for a triple just to run test dog and four competing dogs would be the max I'd consider and that would drive our costs up. We work very hard to provide reasonable frozen ducks for the first series of our events. We also ensure they are properly thawed. Anyone who wants to not enter our events because of this you are welcome to stay home...if it becomes a hard and fast rule that no previously frozen birds can be used, then we will be forced to increase our entry fees to an insane level. We STRUGGLE to break even every year as we are one of those clubs that is forced to pay for land, help and drive on average 2 1/2 hours to where we hold our event...so cry me a river if you don't want to have your dog retrieve a recently frozen bird...and if you want to volunteer to chair the event and run things as you see fit, I'll be more than happy to send you an application. 

Lainee


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

A lot of clubs out here use fresh frozen ducks at all stakes to get the hunt test started. They give each stake enough to run the first 5 dogs and rotate them out as the test progresses. Each dog still gets the birds required from AKC. The birds are thawed out before using them though.

/Paul


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

I prefer to run at clubs that use ducks over those that use the pen-raised pheasants that have no scent. However, if clubs start using more pheasants to make ends meet financially, then that will work too. If a Club uses all fresh birds on Day 1, are we allowed to reuse the dead birds on Day 2? I agree with Lainee, our clubs will be rebirding a lot because it is a shame to kill birds for dead bird stations and entry fees will go up. In the clubs where we are members, the dead birds are the fresh-shot flyers from the previous event and the dead birds are beautiful and completely thawed.


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

I have no issue using GOOD frozen birds in a trial or test. Especially for the blinds.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Ducks, .... Current cost is minimum $12.50. .


ayup, had to check Jim's price from last years test. that is what we pay as well. charge $75 per dog all level. 
I just thought everyone shot 4 birds to get started Saturday morning. Then sold leftover birds to the pro's Sunday afternoon.


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## CamoDog (Dec 9, 2010)

I once heard a great quote... "It aint a Trial unless someone's complainin' "
..I would like to train with these folks out there who apparently must kill a few birds everyday before they get started...
...whats next, Organically raised only??? LOL


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I've never seen obviously-frozen birds used at any event. However, I've seen and thrown some mighty slimy Sunday birds during warm weather. I'd far rather have my dogs retrieving frozen birds (as long as they were thawed) on Sunday than a much-used sinker that happened to have been alive Friday morning.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> ayup, had to check Jim's price from last years test. that is what we pay as well. charge $75 per dog all level.
> I just thought everyone shot 4 birds to get started Saturday morning. Then sold leftover birds to the pro's Sunday afternoon.


And there is the issue with the way rules come about sometimes (thinking about the layout blind rule)...just cause something works one way in a certain part of the country does not mean it works that way in other parts...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

CamoDog said:


> I once heard a great quote... "It aint a Trial unless someone's complainin' "
> ..I would like to train with these folks out there who apparently must kill a few birds everyday before they get started...
> ...whats next, Organically raised only??? LOL


what does how we train have to do with how we read the regulations and guidelines?

birds and tater tots 
side by each other regards.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

In freshly killed birds, all those metabolic processes continue to heat them up inside and they start to decompose as soon as they've been shot. Chilled-freezing birds, stops the metabolic decomposition processes, and those birds last longer. They are also perfectly fine and fluffy, when they've been put away, and un-thawed correctly. You cannot tell the difference except the chilled-frozen bird is cold inside verses a shot flyer that will remain hot. On a hot day it's the frozen ones that will end-up being re-useable while the flyers will be nasty. We actually have people collect a percentage of the flyers, and get them in the A/C trailer, to hang and cool before they get used again, the next day. A bird steward saves a club a bunch of money by doing a bunch of little simple things, to keep birds nice and useable, and ensures the club doesn't put out crap. It's a club responsibility to ensure their events have good birds, for us it's a point of club pride, and does not need to be regulated by All-Father AKC, who knows nothing about bird care and maintenance, but likes to make a bunch of rules, on how things must be done. Perhaps we'll need hall-passes and rulers to tell us when and how to take potty breaks next.


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## CamoDog (Dec 9, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> what does how we train have to do with how we read the regulations and guidelines?
> 
> birds and tater tots
> side by each other regards.


Nothing.
But, although ive only been doing this a few years, I have never been to a training group where the dead birds used didnt come from someones freezer. Why/How could someone expect to have Fresh Killed birds at every Mark/Blind at a HT/FT? Its just not practicle. I Just figured the only ones that would expect such a thing, must train their dog that way...
I shoulda stopped my .02 at "It aint a Trial unless someone's complainin'"!


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## Clayton Evans (Jun 26, 2008)

I've had frozen unthawed birds thrown in a JH test and thrown out of a boat but unfortunately for my dog her's sank. There was a coot on the water and she went after the coot but gave up and came back to the thrown mark. Couldn't find it and again chased the coot came back and couldn't find it again and I picked her up and we were out unfortunately. While all this was going on the bird boy was constantly tapping on the side of the boat which didn't help much.
That happened years ago and have not seen it since. Our club tried something new this year by having club members buy fliers for a training session the week before the test. These were than frozen and thawed the day before the test and were in perfect condition to start our test without having to kill a bunch to start the test.
One complaint I have is that bird boys aren't instructed to throw dead bird by gathering the wings and head together and throw that way saving the heads from coming off or loosing all the neck feathers.
Clay


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Are we here debating whether or not it is ok to* not *follow a_ Rule_ seems that way to me. 

The 2.5 birds per dog rule allow the judges not to have to use unsuitable birds for testing.The birds are to be made available for the judges to do just that, With this push by the AKC the committee member or members who exert undue influence on a judge in this or any other matter in their(the Judges) perview perhaps should reconsider.......

I was a game stewars at trials back in the day, where, for the most part the first thru the last bird picked up each day were fit for table and that's where most of them went.;-)

john


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Ann I just entered NW trial and entry fee $85.00.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Annette said:


> Ann I just entered NW trial and entry fee $85.00.


$85. Wow. It would be a shame to see entry fees go up more. It is already a pretty expensive hobby.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Are we here debating whether or not it is ok to* not *follow a_ Rule_ seems that way to me.
> john


seems it is John

*Section 2. Game. *Pheasants and/or ducks and/or chukars may be used in AKC-licensed or member club Hunting Tests, as may any other species of game bird that might be unique to a specific region. Clubs shall specify in the premium list the exact species of birds to be used in their hunting tests. A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test levels. At least one live flyer must be used in a Senior or Master level test unless the use of live ammunition is pro-hibited by law or policy of the land managing organization at the testing location. No live bird, or any species of fowl, shall be used in a test while under any form of restraint or physical impair-ment at any sanctioned, licensed, or member club event for Retrievers..


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> seems it is John
> 
> *Section 2. Game. *Pheasants and/or ducks and/or chukars may be used in AKC-licensed or member club Hunting Tests, as may any other species of game bird that might be unique to a specific region. Clubs shall specify in the premium list the exact species of birds to be used in their hunting tests. A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test levels. At least one live flyer must be used in a Senior or Master level test unless the use of live ammunition is pro-hibited by law or policy of the land managing organization at the testing location. No live bird, or any species of fowl, shall be used in a test while under any form of restraint or physical impair-ment at any sanctioned, licensed, or member club event for Retrievers..


And where in the rules does it state you can NOT use recently frozen birds?? It does not.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> And where in the rules does it state you can NOT use recently frozen birds?? It does not.



Don't be surprised if it soon does .

And in the case of a prohibition on shooting them break out the co2

john


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Our club has never used frozen ducks at a test (to my knowledge when I was Head Test or Bird/Equip Chair). We plan for 1.3 ducks per dog on the high side then do a absolute count for a range of birds to purchase and we decide on a number in the middle. The absolute count normally has 6 practice ducks for the LF and 6 no birds per stake. Master will have more practice shots for the LF placement and so that we can run at least three dogs before a re-bird. So we allow for all fresh birds at the start of each test. Then, with our bird supplier, I make them aware that I may need another delivery if the Master Judges want a second bird. The later is all added cost but needs to be planned for in some fashion.

I have ran a test where frozen birds were used and I was not pleased. They were sinking on the first day on water and had the 3 day funk on day one.

I do not mind if a club is having a money issue on a certain test but if it comes based on penny pinching just to put more money in the bank to sit on, that is not right.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Don't be surprised if it soon does .
> 
> And in the case of a prohibition on shooting them break out the co2
> 
> john


But at this point in time it does not, so implying clubs are breaking the rules because they do use them is a little misleading.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I belong to 2 clubs and am the bird steward and equipment guy for 3 tests in one and bird steward for 1 test in the other.

We buy 2 birds per entry PLUS 10% AND MAKE SOME MONEY ON EVERY TEST AND TRIAL! There are other, easily controlled costs that can be managed without shorting the participants on live birds. We STRONGLY suggest to our judges to use 2 flyers at ALL testing levels. This ensures good quality birds for the last dog to run, as well as the first. This year at a Junior test the judges did not want to use a second flyer. I said fine, and then killed 15 ducks for them to use in their water test. This gave them 50 DRY ducks to use. There were no sinkers, and there never will be if I am doing that job.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I wish we only had to pay 12.50 per bird. Our supplier just went up to 15.00 per bird and 1.50 travel one way which is over 500 miles . We end up paying over 20.00 per bird after they are delivered. We do not use frozen birds to start only because we do not have any. Only frozen ones are the ones members keep for training. If birds are correctly frozen than thrawed, most handlers would not even know it.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

As mentioned earlier, how do you properly thaw out a bird? I just throw mine in the garage floor the night before or if I forget use frozen . Didnnt no there was a proper way to thaw 
Thanks, Brad


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

FOM said:


> But at this point in time it does not, so implying clubs are breaking the rules because they do use them is a little misleading.


Don't know that anyone was implying anything. The rule for providing 2 live birds per entered dog is very clear, as Ken pointed out.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> But at this point in time it does not, so implying clubs are breaking the rules because they do use them is a little misleading.





> Bert,
> I don't know who decided that "it was about time "to clarify what ALL the birds that the rules required to be avaliable for use by the judges were to be used for, but I think that they were correct !!!!!!!!!
> 
> john


This is what I said, and I fail to see it as being misleading.

john


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> ayup, had to check Jim's price from last years test. that is what we pay as well. charge $75 per dog all level.
> I just thought everyone shot 4 birds to get started Saturday morning. Then sold leftover birds to the pro's Sunday afternoon.


That's what I thought, only we shoot 6-8, run two or three dogs and re-bird, then further and further between re-birds until you have a good supply of fresh shot birds. On the other hand I wouldn't have an issue with dry, thawed out birds in good shape, they would be much better than fresh shot birds after they have been used a few series, especially water retrieves.

John


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

FOM said:


> Entry fees here are already at the $90 mark - we start with a mixture of frozen and recently killed ducks from Pros in the area shot earlier in the week - the frozen ducks are the fliers from our HT in June and are in very reasonable shape. If we started with fresh killed the day of the test then we would have to rebird every 3-4 dogs because I would NOT shoot a crap load of flyers just to get a stake started - 10 birds for a triple just to run test dog and four competing dogs would be the max I'd consider and that would drive our costs up. We work very hard to provide reasonable frozen ducks for the first series of our events. We also ensure they are properly thawed. Anyone who wants to not enter our events because of this you are welcome to stay home...if it becomes a hard and fast rule that no previously frozen birds can be used, then we will be forced to increase our entry fees to an insane level. We STRUGGLE to break even every year as we are one of those clubs that is forced to pay for land, help and drive on average 2 1/2 hours to where we hold our event...so cry me a river if you don't want to have your dog retrieve a recently frozen bird...and if you want to volunteer to chair the event and run things as you see fit, I'll be more than happy to send you an application.
> 
> Lainee


OK Lainee I hear all that but does the club follow the rules and provide a minimum of two live birds per dog per stake for the judges to use?


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Went to a HRC hunt test last year that used frozen Kahki Campbells and other domestic ducks .....some heads off ect....won't be going back . It was embarrassing ,especially as clients were there.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> I prefer to run at clubs that use ducks over those that use the pen-raised pheasants that have no scent. However, if clubs start using more pheasants to make ends meet financially, then that will work too. If a Club uses all fresh birds on Day 1, are we allowed to reuse the dead birds on Day 2? I agree with Lainee, our clubs will be rebirding a lot because it is a shame to kill birds for dead bird stations and entry fees will go up. In the clubs where we are members, the dead birds are the fresh-shot flyers from the previous event and the dead birds are beautiful and completely thawed.


Pen raised pheasants do have scent which is quite identifiable when you use them in training. However they are more difficult to raise hence more expensive than ducks. We will continue to use pheasants at our field trial until they pry my cold stiff hand off of the checkbook.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

The "at least" change was made a year+ ago which was asked for by clubs due to the cost increases in birds. The "made available" does not imply they are on site or that they are required but a club must be capable and ready to provide a second if requested by the judges.

I check with the judges during set up to see if they are going to call for a second bird. Most judges understand the cost implications to the club and additional time to set up and run, the judges will opt to use only 1 LF in the first series. But, you never know and must have the means to provide that second live bird.

... "A minimum of two live birds per entry "must be made available" for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test levels. At "least one" live flyer must be used in a Senior or Master level test".....

There is nothing stating that 2 birds are required to be used in each stake.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

We can get pheasants cheaper than ducks right now. They need to breed a waterproof pheasant and we would be set!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Brad said:


> As mentioned earlier, how do you properly thaw out a bird? I just throw mine in the garage floor the night before or if I forget use frozen . Didnt no there was a proper way to thaw
> Thanks, Brad


Putting them away correctly, as in completely dry, fluffed, individual and not squished into a ball; is way more important than thawing. Although to ensure completely thawed birds they must be taken out and hung the night before. We also thaw elevated off the ground (takes away moisture) and in a cool enclosed environment, no ants etc. To be fair our birds for tests are not-left overs they are never wet and never used as training birds. They were shot, inspected, and stored specifically for the test, usually in whole lot better condition than you'd get out of shot-flyers, with questionable gunner experience,choke etc, (no missing heads, holes, gut plies etc.). They are also usually bigger and nicer birds. You never know what might be delivered as flyers the morning of the test. I've shot a bunch of puny barley fledged, stinky-feces covered packed together live-flyers, because it's all that was available at the time. Ducks are nasty creatures to pin and keep, a much nicer and cleaner animal when wrapped up in a freezer .


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

My error--the title should not say "New". AKC rules and regulations already state the number of live birds that should be available for judges to use. AKC Hunting Test is 2 live birds must be made available per entry, and AKC Field Trial is 2.5 live birds per entry in all-age be made available.... and 2 live birds for Derby and Qualifying be made available. Sorry for my error.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Some of the nicest birds I ever seen in a trial are up in Canada where they don't shoot flyers. Their mallards are huge, like small geese. When I commented on them, I was told the club members save them up from hunting season. If this is true they do a wonderful job of preserving them and thawing them out nice, dry and fluffy.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Let me ask this if the entry fee helps cover the cost of birds, than the clubs that reuse birds from training and/or hunting have already been paid for, so why isn't the entry fee cheaper if your reusing birds? 

In my opinion if your using birds that were shot during hunting than that's just wrong.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Some clubs are located near electricity and have cooling trailers (AC trailers) to keep and dry birds overnight. Many clubs do not have facilities for cooling/keeping birds at a trial or hunting test, and with the hot weather there are birds that aren't always in the best shape. I am not sure what clubs are supposed to do. It's a lot of work, by a few dedicated people, and the Clubs really don't make much profit.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

metalone67 said:


> Let me ask this if the entry fee helps cover the cost of birds, than the clubs that reuse birds from training and/or hunting have already been paid for, so why isn't the entry fee cheaper if your reusing birds?
> 
> In my opinion if your using birds that were shot during hunting than that's just wrong.


Canada allows birds from hunting to be used at tests and trials, and does not allow live flyers. U.S. does not allow birds from hunting, and does allow live flyers. In the U.S., birds are purchased from bird suppliers.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Some clubs are located near electricity and have cooling trailers (AC trailers) to keep and dry birds overnight. Many clubs do not have facilities for cooling/keeping birds at a trial or hunting test, and with the hot weather there are birds that aren't always in the best shape. I am not sure what clubs are supposed to do. It's a lot of work, by a few dedicated people, and the Clubs really don't make much profit.


We have 2 large Igloo coolers (the white ones made for fishermen), 4 or 5 bags of ice in the bottom, a plastic bag over the ice, birds on top leaving some air space, one cooler will keep 20-25 pheasants well, if you can find dry ice even better.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> OK Lainee I hear all that but does the club follow the rules and provide a minimum of two live birds per dog per stake for the judges to use?


NO. See my reply below as to why.



Good Dogs said:


> Don't know that anyone was implying anything. The rule for providing 2 live birds per entered dog is very clear, as Ken pointed out.


It is....not arguing that. 

Let's use a concrete example as to why this particular rule is not practical. Keeping it in context of a FT where the rulebook says 2.5 for AA stakes and 2 for minor stakes. 

We have the following entries: 49, 47, 26, 0 (total 122)
That means we are suppose to have 292 birds "available" at $11 per bird that is $3,212 - this does not include the other costs associated with getting birds (trailer fee, gas, stewarding)

"Normally" a SINGLE flyer is shot in the first series - that means we NEED to have at least 122 birds ($1342) 
And "normally" by the 4th series of any given stake, there is about a 25% (estimating high) remaining number of dogs - so in this example that is 31 dogs/birds, which translates into $341

So "typically" we would need 153 birds.

We order 1.5 birds per entry - which typically covers our needs (183 in this case or 30 extra birds); this number of birds allows for scratches and no-birds....and if by chance the judges want to shoot fresh birds they can, but I can't recall in my 14 years of playing doggie games that ever happening...and for sure not in the 12+ years that I've been extremely active in helping host various events. And in the last 6 years of being the sole idiot in the club crunching numbers and managing logistics we have always ended up with way too many live flyers at the end, of which we now have to figure out what to do with. Note we do always provide a few birds to be shot once the live flyer station is set up in order to lay scent.

It makes ZERO sense to have so many birds on hand just because they should be "available" - its a waste when you seriously sit down and look at the numbers...if we follow the rule as written we would have 109 more birds "available" than we truly need, at the cost of ($1199)...we would also be working in the red even before the first dog ran....I HIGHLY recommend doing an actual budget based on as accurate numbers as possible - I'm looking at mine for our FT that starts this Friday and we are in the red and for the life of me I'm trying to figure out how to save every single penny we can without compromising the quality of the event (never mind the water issues we have right now). And for those who say clubs don't need to make money - well if we don't clear about $700 per event then we will not have the money to pay for insurance the following year and "National" club dues...

FOM


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> ayup, had to check Jim's price from last years test. that is what we pay as well. charge $75 per dog all level.
> I just thought everyone shot 4 birds to get started Saturday morning. Then sold leftover birds to the pro's Sunday afternoon.


Thats what we do


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Lainee, out here our bird supplier brings loads of ducks, probably three or four times more than needed for the trial, to sell to the various pros and amateurs in the area after the trial. If the bird supplier is at the trial with a thousand ducks, that covers the "should be available" clause even though the trial only buys what they need to run the trial. We hate no-birds though.
John


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

And anyone who wants to report us to the AKC, the event number is 2013361102, club name is Pikes Peak Retriever Club and the event is being held in Wellington, CO.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Lainee, out here our bird supplier brings loads of ducks, probably three or four times more than needed for the trial, to sell to the various pros and amateurs in the area after the trial. If the bird supplier is at the trial with a thousand ducks, that covers the "should be available" clause even though the trial only buys what they need to run the trial. We hate no-birds though.
> John


Or bird supplier is 20 minutes from these particular grounds, if we needed to get more birds we could easily do it (we hate no birds and scrapping first series too  )...but we have to ORDER birds and those are the ones the supplier would prefer not to take back, so we are "stuck" with them....and yes we can sell them to other club members or Pros, but normally it is the last thing on Sunday we do and most everyone does NOT want to wait to do that...the equipment is not going to put itself in the trailer and it doesn't have to work on Monday morning either...so....people can preach, but we will not change how we do things for now...the position of FTS/FTC is always open for a new volunteer at any time!


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Since this discussion seems to be centering itself around the dollars and cents aspect of putting on a test I offer this up-

Our 2013 NAHRA field test was very small; 42 entries, total. Entry fees were going to bring in 2700 dollars. Keep in mind that the NAHRA rules don't spell out how many birds must be made available to the judges.

I ordered 60 mallards and 25 chukar, which cost just under $1000.00.

on Saturday, all levels, (21 dogs) used 31 dead ducks which we killed with co2 that morning and 6 chukar (for the Senior upland test). The ducks were hung in a barn with plenty of air space between them and 2 24" box fans blowing on them. In the morning, about 18 of those ducks were usable. The Sunday tests had 1 flyer at all levels and Chukar for the Senior upland test. By controlling our other costs and having a 50/50 raffle and 50/50 bumper toss, we were still able to turn a small profit. we sold the few birds left over as well.

budgets are important!-Paul


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

FOM said:


> *Or bird supplier is 20 minutes from these particular grounds, if we needed to get more birds we could easily do it* (we hate no birds and scrapping first series too  )...but we have to ORDER birds and those are the ones the supplier would prefer not to take back, so we are "stuck" with them....and yes we can sell them to other club members or Pros, but normally it is the last thing on Sunday we do and most everyone does NOT want to wait to do that...the equipment is not going to put itself in the trailer and it doesn't have to work on Monday morning either...so....people can preach, but we will not change how we do things for now...the position of FTS/FTC is always open for a new volunteer at any time!


With that statement you do have enough birds "available" should the judges request them in a timely manner, so you are legally complying with the AKC rule.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Would it be acceptable to state in the premium something along the lines of " On reserved basis our club will have extra flyer for sale " Or something to that effect . Then you are not committing any numbers of extra birds ,but contestants will be aware they are available ,but also not committing the club to a definite number of birds to be sold,then the club could reach the requirements and have a better chance of not being stuck with birds/overhead.

Just a thought that ran really fast through my head.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FOM said:


> Let's use a concrete example as to why this particular rule is not practical. Keeping it in context of a FT where the rulebook says 2.5 for AA stakes


An antiquated recommendation which has been in the rule book for over 50 years, from a time when entries were low and birds were cheap. No club, including my own, in my almost 40 years in field trials has ever adhered to that number. It is impractical as you have described. Put this baby to rest folks, it is unrealistic unless you want $125 entry fees.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

I have a slightly different take on this. Not monetary but ethical. I feel it is very unethical to waste game at trials by smothering fresh birds to start a trial. These animals give their life for our retrievers to train and trials with, we owe it to them to carefully use the least amount practical. We also should care for them in the utmost of humane regards possible. To smother them is a waste, as a flyer they have not given their life in vain. Bring on the frozen birds.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

metalone67 said:


> Let me ask this if the entry fee helps cover the cost of birds, than the clubs that reuse birds from training and/or hunting have already been paid for, so why isn't the entry fee cheaper if your reusing birds?
> 
> In my opinion if your using birds that were shot during hunting than that's just wrong.


Entry fees don't "help" cover the costs of birds, the entry fees do cover the costs of birds in most every case. Previously shot-flyers that have been frozen then thawed are used to supply the event until enough shot-flyers are available from the shooting of flyers during the event in ordeer to avoid needless re-birds. Individuals who supply the fresh dead birds that have been frozen then thawed have to be re-paid like birds after the event is completed from shot-flyers killed during the event. If this practice wasn't followed, it would require an additional 10-20 birds per stake to be ordered, paid for and killed prior to the 1st dog being run.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Canada allows birds from hunting to be used at tests and trials, and does not allow live flyers. U.S. does not allow birds from hunting, and does allow live flyers. In the U.S., birds are purchased from bird suppliers.


Well now we know why we have no ducks to hunt in Texas anymore.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I guess it all would turn on what the AKC considers as being available, and the distinction between available and accessable keeping in mind that available is the word in the rules. Even so I would tend not to quibble if the balance of the 2.5 bird total is 20min out...

So now we are left to decide how far out is too far, or is it all right not to have them available at all ?

In any case I would think long and hard before I would "throw down" with the AKC about obeying a rule. 

john


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

With all this being said I need to raise more ducks. I raised 36 for some local trainers and I got $8 dollars a duck and I made good profit too. 
On average would one say 150-175 ducks would cover one trial?


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

As a handler I'd have NO problem sending the dog on a decent, thawed bird in a test, if it helped keep costs in check. Nor a pheasant, duck or chukar. I'm not there to test what he or I likes better. Especially if it kept more birds available to prevent late day sinkers.

I would want the flyer to flap wings though. ;-)

Some dogs get fresh, live birds all hunting season long.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

As someone who has (successfully, knock wood) worked through some minor "mouth issues," I really think that this rule should be considered in terms of what we are testing.

Having shot flyers tests whether dogs will pick up a shot bird. I think this is important. 

Having fluffy, not-frozen birds continues to test whether dogs will pick up recently-killed birds. This is less important than above, but still an important and practical part of a test.

Having frozen birds--cold, long dead, sometimes slick, sometimes smelly, sometimes "squishy" birds--tests whether you train with frozen-then-thawed birds. Practical? Something necessary? Sure. Important from the standpoint of testing a dog's ability to deliver a bird gently to hand? Notsomuch.

Birds should not be the consistency of bubblegum, and freezing then thawing as a regular, "allowable" practice in test and trial situations will only move that cold, slippery, sinking, stinking line further away from testing a dog's natural instincts and more toward its ability to carry rotting crap.

In an emergency??? Well, okay, sometimes things happen. 

As an allowable general practice per rules and regulations? No way.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Well...lol...I certainly wouldn't advocate the worst possible duck condition scenario either! ;-)

Remember someone telling me of a test (can't remember what venue, maybe NAHRA) where they used some large geese. Apparently lots of experienced dogs have never carried one, albeit they were 'fresh'.

I do agree an entire test shouldn't be thawed birds but some could help the bird issue with little if any impact. Seems the junior dogs tear up the fleshy, fresh ones anyway?


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

FOM said:


> And where in the rules does it state you can NOT use recently frozen birds?? It does not.


The rules say that the club must make available to the judges two live birds per entry. Recently frozen birds would not count towards this requirement though....would they? IOW, if a JH has 25 dogs entered and the club presents the judge with 25 live and 25 frozen, would they have fulfilled the rules? How about if they presented the judge with 50 live birds and 25 frozen? Would the judge be correct to kill the 50 live birds and leave the frozen birds alone?

I have a couple of experiences with a club using dead birds. In one, the club had so few live birds for a Double Everything on a 90 degree w/e, that in SH we were using nasty birds. My dog and several others simply refused to pickup the birds.

Similar situation. Dog returns with a bird that stuck to high heaven. When I took the bird and handed it to the judge, she refused to take it and told me to just put it down. The Field Rep was there and I refused to put it down but kept trying to hand it to her. She kept refusing until the Field Rep stepped in and told her that I was right, she or her partner had to take the bird.

A third time was much the same as the second except that I later learned that the club had the birds killed a couple of weeks before for training, froze them afterwards, and then got them out for the test. This is a club that is known for "misbehavior" over the years.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't think anyone is advocating using several freeze -thaw cycled birds for trials. As others have said well cared for frozen birds are imperceptible from fresh birds.

The "rotten" birds associated with trials are "liked" by no one. They are sometimes there because of nature and are very hard to deal with by everyone, especially by the bird wranglers. I think that the birds are nasty towards the end of the trial even if they were alive at the start.

Using Lainee's example posted earlier and "real life" it makes no sense to provide 2.5 birds per entry when probably 75% -90% of the entries will be out by the 4th series.

If you have a 100 dog Open you'd need 250 birds to start. Say, 40 dogs pass the 1st series, 30 the 2nd, and 20 the 3rd. Very liberal callbacks, probably unrealistic call backs. But into the 4th with 20 dogs and at least 125 to 150 ducks left... You can ask the Pros if they want them or the Ams. What if no one takes them? If they do, what do you do for crates? You'd need 7 crates, who brings that many crates with them? What Pro can haul that many birds home? Most aren't going home.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I'm just saying that allowing frozen birds would be poor policy. It sets a low bar, when pretty much everyone admits that they are ignoring the bar already. Human nature, inflation, etc.

In an emergency, better to beg for forgiveness--I'm not unreasonable. 

Really.

Unless life isn't perfect. And fluffy.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

FOM said:


> NO. See my reply below as to why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure you want this in print?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

As it turns out there is one DB that is giving the dogs fits. a lot of hunts some fairly extensive. In a FT if one dog gets a fresh kill on that bird, and another gets a partially thawed out one, have they been tested equally on that mark ?

john


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

john fallon said:


> As it turns out there is one DB that is giving the dogs fits. a lot of hunts some fairly extensive. In a FT if one dog gets a fresh kill on that bird, and another gets a partially thawed out one, have they been tested equally on that mark ?
> 
> john


On the same line, a partially thawed memory bird that floats much lower in the water that those thrown for the other dogs. Is this a fair and equal test?


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

john fallon said:


> As it turns out there is one DB that is giving the dogs fits. a lot of hunts some fairly extensive. In a FT if one dog gets a fresh kill on that bird, and another gets a partially thawed out one, have they been tested equally on that mark ?
> 
> john


Guess the trick would be not putting partially frozen birds in the field? Do they move the line when the wind changes direction in a field trial?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

john fallon said:


> As it turns out there is one DB that is giving the dogs fits. a lot of hunts some fairly extensive. In a FT if one dog gets a fresh kill on that bird, and another gets a* partially thawed out one*, have they been tested equally on that mark ?
> 
> john


Who said anything about partially thawed birds? We used previously frozen birds at our trials and HTs which are thawed (not partially thawed) and many times they are in better condition than the birds shot at the event because those birds are being used over and over in the absence of good dead birds previously frozen. Personally I prefer to have my dog sent for a thawed bird shot previously. It's much more like what they get everyday.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

HNTFSH said:


> Guess the *trick* would be not putting partially frozen birds in the field? Do they move the line when the wind changes direction in a field trial?


 
In reality there are some clubs that give all the stations dead birds to get started, and often these birds are not completely thawed out.... as the fresh kills are added to the mix the comingling that I mentioned happens.

john


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

john fallon said:


> In reality there are some clubs that give all the stations dead birds to get started, and often these birds are not completely thawed out.... as the fresh kills are added to the mix the comingling that I mentioned happens.
> 
> john


I would completely agree that all birds, as issued out by the bird steward, should be thawed and equal to the fresh kills. Be it test or trial.

If a bird comes back to the line frozen, I would stop the stake and inspect all birds in the field.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

It's all a question of the consumer driving the demand. Until people start asking these questions and refusing to attend events put on with previously frozen birds, a new rule will just get broken like the existing one.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Swampcollie said:


> On the same line, a partially thawed memory bird that floats much lower in the water that those thrown for the other dogs. Is this a fair and equal test?


Or if drakes and hens are not kept separate and the drakes white underwing shows, then a hen is thrown, is this a fair and equal test? I dunno.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

We usually kill a few to start because we do not have convenient storage to start with thawed birds. I am fine with thawed birds, however. Using them saves the club money and they look and smell close enough to a recently killed bird. The AKC needs to stay out of this one and give the clubs some latitude to do what works for them.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Criquetpas said:


> Or if drakes and hens are not kept separate and the drakes white underwing shows, then a hen is thrown, is this a fair and equal test? I dunno.


Birds should always be sexed and the same sex put at the same station to keep the test as fair as possible. The white wing up is luck of the draw, even when all drakes are thrown. We don't need a rule for this either.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> I judged this past weekend and it was brought up by the AKC rep that was present. The club politely asked if he could show them in the rules and or regulations but did not provide such...


If an AKC rep brought it up, AKC is currently talking and thinking about clubs using previously frozen birds. Was it a trial you judged and where did you judge?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Sabireley said:


> We usually kill a few to start because we do not have convenient storage to start with thawed birds. I am fine with thawed birds, however. Using them saves the club money and they look and smell close enough to a recently killed bird. The AKC needs to stay out of this one and give the clubs some latitude to do what works for them.


Excellent post! Hellfire they are suppose to be FF retrievers. Some young birds have too little oil in their feathers and after one toss in the water they nearly sink. If they sink judges judge to where they they sink. At field trials you don't have many water birds landing in the water with a big splash. Hunt tests more splashing water birds. You can go back to the wagon train era, use hen phesants on a board as a floater, then see what a wet bird really is! Many clubs are in a bind with help, price of birds going up, grounds, etc. I remember a very prominent judge a few back at a Southern trial with serious weather issues couldn't shoot flyers. Told anyone entered to take their flyer out of the box if they wanted a fresh bird and take it home. No one came forward.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

NOTE: Title was changed per the OP's request.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Sabireley said:


> Birds should always be sexed and the same sex put at the same station to keep the test as fair as possible. The white wing up is luck of the draw, even when all drakes are thrown. We don't need a rule for this either.


That was with tongue in cheek read on! Been at this game for awhile.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Are you sure you want this in print?


It is what it is...if the AKC wants to sanction us then they can, I won't lie. But I promise you, we will fold house and just stick to training as a club, they would loose the income from our HT and FT...I could care less and it would make my life easier.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

As it stands now there is a rule in place about fresh birds at a trial or a test. Some do not like it and have chosen to ignore it. Should this be a viable alternative for *any* rule that one does not like.

john


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

It's called civil disobedience , but, be prepared to suffer the consequences of your action even if you feel the rule unjustified.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

john fallon said:


> As it stands now there is a rule in place about fresh birds at a trial or a test. Some do not like it and have chosen to ignore it. Should this be a viable alternative for *any* rule that one does not like.
> 
> john


That said, I suspect that some clubs have ignored judges requirements throughout the years. The AKC does not police. I suspect that all AKC HT requirements are sometimes not met. I suspect FT as well. It is the individual clubs responsibility. The same goes for birds. We have all seen good,fresh birds, and some not so. In some twenty+ years I've only had a dog blink a bird once. We, the judges and I went out and inspected the bird. Nothing could be found. We took our licks and went home. It happens, both in AKC HT and FT and HRC. JD


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Criquetpas said:


> Excellent post! Hellfire they are suppose to be FF retrievers. Some young birds have too little oil in their feathers and after one toss in the water they nearly sink. If they sink judges judge to where they they sink. At field trials you don't have many water birds landing in the water with a big splash. Hunt tests more splashing water birds. You can go back to the wagon train era, use hen phesants on a board as a floater, then see what a wet bird really is! Many clubs are in a bind with help, price of birds going up, grounds, etc. I remember a very prominent judge a few back at a Southern trial with serious weather issues couldn't shoot flyers. Told anyone entered to take their flyer out of the box if they wanted a fresh bird and take it home. No one came forward.


Reminds me of the time years ago when I was shooting the flyer for a HT from a boat as a the remnants of a hurricane was passing through. We got the boat stabilized well enough that it was safe, but after a few tries on 50 mph winds with gusts to 70, the judges finally let common sense take over and did not have a flyer for that test.

In my area, there seemed to be a general shortage of birds during the spring season. Even the live birds that clubs could get didn't fly well and didn't float much at all. Lots of frozen (still frozen) birds appeared in tests and I ran one MH test where I was the tenth dog in the first series and the second bird my dog picked up smelled so bad, I almost puked before I could send the dog for the final bird. The AKC rep was just behind the line and didn't say anything, although likely he dinged the club for it in his report.

Other than the ones that make me puke (and I admit I have a weak gag reflex for nasty smells  ), I personally have no problem with thawed frozen birds even if sometimes a few that are not totally thawed make it into the bags. I would rather deal with that from time to time than not have the trial or test at all.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Criquetpas said:


> That was with tongue in cheek read on! Been at this game for awhile.


I know . Surprisingly, many people don't know or have not been instructed by the judges to sex the birds. I was piling on. I am also annoyed at the prospect of more rules that take control and flexibility away from the clubs.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> I've never seen obviously-frozen birds used at any event. However, I've seen and thrown some mighty slimy Sunday birds during warm weather. I'd far rather have my dogs retrieving frozen birds (as long as they were thawed) on Sunday than a much-used sinker that happened to have been alive Friday morning.


Julie I would agree with you! We have shagged birds from the spaniel tests and frozen them for use in our HRC events, they are free and you just need a freezer to put them in for a few months. We are lucky to have a member with room in their "bird" freezer to store these birds. They are great to use in Finished and Seasoned to start the land tests. Started pretty much gets fresh killed ducks each day. We have also taken the shot flyers from Finished and used them at Started on Sunday as long as they are good. 
Clubs have to watch costs, with additional travel expenses for judges, birds, ammo and birds clubs need to become " inventive" on how they cut costs or raise funds.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> I know . Surprisingly, many people don't know or have not been instructed by the judges to sex the birds. I was piling on. I am also annoyed at the prospect of more rules that take control and flexibility away from the clubs.



When a governing body such as the AKC sees flagrant abuse of a segment of THEIR rules such as we have with this birds available to the judges for their use matter... 
What should they do? A) give the 0ffenders more flexibility and control OR B) take back some of the flexibility with further clarification of the existing rules.
Further clarification and existing being the operative words. 

You see, the rules are in place,and anyone with a command of the written word should know what what they mean, and truth be known most do, but some have chosen to circumvent them .................. 

john


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

John, all this fillibustering is moot. Think you know AKC ain't got the stones to buck the NARC or LRC on anything to do with field trials.

MG


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

It was a hunt test that was limited to 60, and it was about full except for some late scratches. All birds were in good shape and plenty available for those dogs that met the judges standards that were invited to keep playing. Yes we had some dogs that were sticky, but a common sense judge needs to understand being sticky on the flier, being sticky on every bird, or just down right doesnt want to give up the last bird picked up.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

MikeBoley said:


> I have a slightly different take on this. Not monetary but ethical. I feel it is very unethical to waste game at trials by smothering fresh birds to start a trial. These animals give their life for our retrievers to train and trials with, we owe it to them to carefully use the least amount practical. We also should care for them in the utmost of humane regards possible. To smother them is a waste, as a flyer they have not given their life in vain. Bring on the frozen birds.


Please explain how it is less humane to "smother" (I assume you are referring to using CO2 to euthanize the birds) than it is to load them into a winger or throw them and shoot them. The end result is the same, both involve some stress of handling, but in one the animal basically falls asleep and in the other they are shot. As long as clubs are use the birds for what they are intended, do not waste them, there does not appear to be an ethical or moral difference.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

luvalab said:


> As someone who has (successfully, knock wood) worked through some minor "mouth issues," I really think that this rule should be considered in terms of what we are testing.
> 
> Having shot flyers tests whether dogs will pick up a shot bird. I think this is important.
> 
> ...


I just felt like saying this again. Emphasis added.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

To me the bottom line isn't about thawed frozen versus never frozen, or meeting the AKC requirement of having 2-2.5 live birds available, it is using common sense and prior experience to have the best possible birds available for all stakes in every series. Earlier I pointed out the very high quality of ducks in the Canadian trials that I have run, these are ducks that are saved by club members from hunting season, and frozen for months before being used later in the summer season. I would rather have those very nice dry fluffy birds than slimy, wet, stinky birds that have been used all weekend in hot summer weather. Most clubs really do care, and they go to great lengths hanging birds up in a cool dry place with fans overnight, throw out the bad ones and try to keep cost under control. IMO the Op is making a mountain out of a molehill.

John


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Wow, 10 pages on weather we should or shouldn't follow the written rules of the games we are playing. I'm a citizen and follow those rules? I'm a Christian and follow those rules? I find it difficult to believe that some can't follow the rules of a silly game? And yes, I'm one of those people that believe if you say your going to do something you do it or apologize for failing and face the consequences. I hate the gray area. Maybe the rule should just read that participants will be given fresh birds daily? That takes the frozen out and doesn't put a number of birds per dog at the start? That way everyone gets fresh birds, not birds killed from Friday's Master test for the Junior test on Sunday, and the club doesn't have to buy way too many birds just to follow the rule.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gary, the rule doesn't say anything about frozen, it just says there should be 2.5 live birds available to the judges for a major stake, 2 for a minor, I don't know what HT rules are. Available to the judges doesn't mean the judges have to use them, doesn't mean you can't have fresh thawed nice frozen birds at the dead bird stations. I think the rule is fine as is, as long as there is a bird supplier nearby, usually the case, the club is covered whether they actually buy 2.5 birds is another matter.

John


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

It is clear that the rule needs to be re-vamped. For a field trial, it simply makes no sense whatsoever to insist that clubs have 2.5 birds for each entry "available."


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes, you are correct and I understand that it doesn't say anything about frozen birds but I'm just thinking about being fair to all participants. If the first dog off gets a bird that had been thawed then the last dog off should get a bird that was thawed. I don't think that there should be a number of birds that must be there at the beginning of the weekend either if the clubs know that they won't be used that weekend. I am of the belief that they know the amount of birds that are usually needed and have the resources to get more if needed then that should be fine as long as all participants get the same thing. There are some that have posted their formula for figuring out what is needed and that it works.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

There is no such rule.

And to the use of frozen/stored birds: If properly frozen, stored and prepared for the event, I have no problem using them. I do have a problem when a club tells me I can only shoot 1 flyer.

Several years ago, when birds started to become more and more expensive, a member of our club offered to collect and freeze enough birds for us to stard our next event. Everyone thought this was great until he showed up at several events with birds he had been using for training, and then expected us to use them in our tests. We had complaints teh club did not respond and make him stop using our birds for training, so I begain bringing home 20 or 30, wrapping them in newspaper and freezing them for whatever stake I was chairing. My birds got no complaints.

Prep, storage and thawing are key. And if done properly, produce birds that are as good or better than a fresh shot flyer.

Note: for the past 4 years, this person has not been in charge of the keeping of the birds and we have great once used ducks to begin our tests.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Lets say that the AKC acquesses and softens it position to the point that 50% of the 2.5 birds may be *completely thawed *previously frozen ADULT birds that were picked up by a dog ONE time as a shot flier on a land mark at a test/trial. 
would that work for youall

john


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

john fallon said:


> When a governing body such as the AKC sees flagrant abuse of a segment of THEIR rules such as we have with this birds available to the judges for their use matter...
> What should they do? A) give the 0ffenders more flexibility and control OR B) take back some of the flexibility with further clarification of the existing rules.
> Further clarification and existing being the operative words.


I think flagrant is more the operative word. I am sure the AKC knows that many, many clubs start with previously frozen birds--it would be kind of hard for those folks in the AKC hats not to have noticed over the years. However, I think it is one of those things that is difficult to enforce (e.g., how could they prove that they weren't available on Friday and then killed and frozen that night) and not flagrant enough that they think it is worth the effort. If it was really flagrant with obviously nasty birds being used all the time, I bet they would step in but I think they know that they would lose a lot of events if they stuck to the letter of the rule and choose not to.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

john fallon said:


> Lets say that the AKC acquesses and softens it position to the point that 50% of the 2.5 birds may be *completely thawed *previously frozen ADULT birds that were picked up by a dog ONE time as a shot flier on a land mark at a test/trial.
> would that work for youall
> 
> john


Then add, only if the duck were shot on a Tuesday, during a full moon, and marked as frozen, stored at exactly -20C, for No more than 2 month, individual wrapped and vacuumed sealed in Ziploc (it had better be ziploc, and only the wallstreet journal can be used for newspaper wrap ). Maybe if we add enough verbiage, stipulations and regulations; to our Tests. Everyone will be able to get it right, or more likely people will get bored reading an extra ridiculous paragraph and then it will just be ignored completely. .

We could just trust the club to put on a test; then report it to the HT committee-AKC reps when we come upon bad situations, ever notice how AKC reps. magically appear at tests to check on things after particulars are brought to attention? Ever been in a HT committee meeting, after the test where a club actually looks to how it can improve, they practically beg for suggestions. It's really no good for any one involved handlers, club, HT committee to put on bad tests with bad birds, sometimes there are circumstances that can't be helped. Still most clubs do care about putting on a Great Event, No-one likes to be involved with crap and they do want people to come back.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

There is NO rule that says previously frozen birds can not be used.

The rule that is being mangled in this thread is in reference to having x number of live birds available for use. 

It appears that some are trying to create a solution for a non-problem. 

I think the OP had a legitimate question about whether or not previously frozen birds are allowed per the rule - which they are since they aren't disallowed. 

However others are trying to muddy the waters by trying to make the use of said birds some how a violation of the rule of having live birds available for use.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

It's obvious that a lot of people don't know where trial birds come from. Most are far to very far away. Not like you can drive a short distance a get another 40 birds.

Bird suppliers don't raise an unlimited number either, so even If they're close enough the birds they have are "spoken for."

It's difficult but I think the people doing it are trying to do their best.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> There is NO rule that says previously frozen birds can not be used.
> 
> The rule that is being mangled in this thread is in reference to having x number of live birds available for use.
> 
> ...



If a club is REQUIRED to have these birds "available for use by the judges" . What do you suppose they are avallable for but to be used for testing 

john


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This is perhaps the most useless thread of the many useless threads that have appeared on RTF.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Eau de Canard


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

EdA said:


> An antiquated recommendation which has been in the rule book for over 50 years, from a time when entries were low and birds were cheap. No club, including my own, in my almost 40 years in field trials has ever adhered to that number. It is impractical as you have described. Put this baby to rest folks, i*t is unrealistic unless you want $125 entry fees*.


This says it best. Those who want 2.5 and "fresh" daily...Just who do you think is going to pay for that?
You will, that's who. That cost will go directly and immediately onto entry fees.

And, can just see the whining now. 'Oh, I went out in first series. So not fair, I paid for 2.5 birds"


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

EdA said:


> This is perhaps the most useless thread of the many useless threads that have appeared on RTF.


I gave it a go....now I'm done, I have gear to pick up, ribbons, shot shells, adult beverages, etc....Thursday is less than 48 hours away...oh yeah and live birds to pick up, plus make sure our frozen birds are suitable to be utilized...if those who don't like how the real world works, you are free to apply for membership and show me through action how to "properly" do things, otherwise I'm done entertaining your opinions.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

John Lash said:


> It's obvious that a lot of people don't know where trial birds come from. Most are far to very far away. Not like you can drive a short distance a get another 40 birds.Bird suppliers don't raise an unlimited number either, so even If they're close enough the birds they have are "spoken for."
> .


I can speak for only two No. Calif. clubs who use the same bird supplier. We sign a contract for the amount of birds we are ordering for each event. The event chairman determines the amount of birds needed based upon the amount used in the previous year for that event (field trial or hunt test). The bird supplier then guarantees he can deliver 10% more (i.e. club orders 300, supplier guarantees he will deliver 330.) If the 30 birds are left over, he will take them back or the club sells them. At the time the contract is signed (usually in the fall for the upcoming year), the club pays a 20% deposit. The contract protects the clubs (price of birds, delivery fee, and stewarding fees, if any, are in the contract). The contract also protects the bird supplier who knows how many birds to raise for each club event and when the event will be held. The bird contract is signed by the club president. The treasurer keeps copies of all bird contracts and issues the deposit check to the bird supplier. This arrangement works really well.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

helencalif said:


> I can speak for only two No. Calif. clubs who use the same bird supplier. We sign a contract for the amount of birds we are ordering for each event. The event chairman determines the amount of birds needed based upon the amount used in the previous year for that event (field trial or hunt test). The bird supplier then guarantees he can deliver 10% more (i.e. club orders 300, supplier guarantees he will deliver 330.) If the 30 birds are left over, he will take them back or the club sells them. At the time the contract is signed (usually in the fall for the upcoming year), the club pays a 20% deposit. The contract protects the clubs (price of birds, delivery fee, and stewarding fees, if any, are in the contract). The contract also protects the bird supplier who knows how many birds to raise for each club event and when the event will be held. The bird contract is signed by the club president. The treasurer keeps copies of all bird contracts and issues the deposit check to the bird supplier. This arrangement works really well.




Save your breath, John. Nobody is listening. Your club can do it and the clubs I belong to can do it. When I judged at Del Bay (John Fallon's club) we had fresh birds -FLYER ROOSTERS, AT THAT. I'm judging in VT. This weekend and I'm pretty sure of what we'll be throwing for the dogs up there, but apparently no one else can afford it.

Carry on, everyone.......-Paul


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

helencalif said:


> I can speak for only two No. Calif. clubs who use the same bird supplier. We sign a contract for the amount of birds we are ordering for each event. The event chairman determines the amount of birds needed based upon the amount used in the previous year for that event (field trial or hunt test). The bird supplier then guarantees he can deliver 10% more (i.e. club orders 300, supplier guarantees he will deliver 330.) If the 30 birds are left over, he will take them back or the club sells them. At the time the contract is signed (usually in the fall for the upcoming year), the club pays a 20% deposit. The contract protects the clubs (price of birds, delivery fee, and stewarding fees, if any, are in the contract). The contract also protects the bird supplier who knows how many birds to raise for each club event and when the event will be held. The bird contract is signed by the club president. The treasurer keeps copies of all bird contracts and issues the deposit check to the bird supplier. This arrangement works really well.


I've heard the same thing happens with 2 clubs around here. The one that has the first test sells the leftovers to the second test holder. I've never seen a frozen duck at a hunt test around here. Sounds like your clubs have their live ducks in a row. That is what they're talking about when someone is told that Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> This is perhaps the most useless thread of the many useless threads that have appeared on RTF.


It's worse then useless every technocrat has come out of the woodwork beating folks on the head with redundancy of it all.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

What is the definition of fresh?

/Paul


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

The AKC tries not to, and doesn't usually get involved until there are enough complaints filed to make the big dog get up and act.

This means some folks have tried to stretch the birds too far. Sinking, skanky birds are not acceptable at a Test or Trial, it's that simple. 

There have been too many instances of bad birds at events and people have had enough. They're irritated enough to complain to the AKC and here we are. I've read through this thread and see how many folks think they do a great job drying and freezing birds for later use at a Test or Trial. Unfortunately reality is often very different and the birds are soaking wet when they're frozen, covered in fly eggs, and are anything but fluffy. When they're thawed, no matter how carefully, they are not going to float worth a damn, and will be crawling with maggots in an hour or two. They are not the high quality birds that some would like to believe they are.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> What is the definition of fresh?
> 
> /Paul


Are you talking about bread, lunch meat or ducks? Apparently there is a difference.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Does anyone have information on the AKC reps examining birds at events and recommending that the Club use fresh killed birds rather than frozen birds? Is this for Hunting Tests, Trials or both? If this is true, Clubs may want to adjust their entry fees for 2014 to cover the additional cost of the live birds at $13-$15 each. Looking for information and background on this, and would like to know if/when this will be effective?


Above is the original post. I think the poster's questions to raise this topic on RTF was valid. A lot of folks who enter AKC events are not aware that some clubs start out the first series with previously frozen-recently thawed birds. The pros and cons are certainly worthy of discussion. 

This discussion (like the topic on the controversial passage of not being able to use layout blinds) has made people aware that an RAC (Retriever Advisory Committee) and the HTRAC exist... and that these committees serve as a rules and regulations advisory to AKC for field trial and hunt test rules and regulations.

What the RAC and the HTRAC advises AKC will effect all of us who participate in AKC events. 

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Swampcollie said:


> The AKC tries not to, and doesn't usually get involved until there are enough complaints filed to make the big dog get up and act.
> 
> This means some folks have tried to stretch the birds too far. Sinking, skanky birds are not acceptable at a Test or Trial, it's that simple.
> 
> There have been too many instances of bad birds at events and people have had enough. They're irritated enough to complain to the AKC and here we are. I've read through this thread and see how many folks think they do a great job drying and freezing birds for later use at a Test or Trial. Unfortunately reality is often very different and the birds are soaking wet when they're frozen, covered in fly eggs, and are anything but fluffy. When they're thawed, no matter how carefully, they are not going to float worth a damn, and will be crawling with maggots in an hour or two. They are not the high quality birds that some would like to believe they are.


Gee, Swampcollie. Where (what region) is this happening? Not happening at the trials we attend on the west coast.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

EdA said:


> This is perhaps the most useless thread of the many useless threads that have appeared on RTF.


Not true, I've learned that if my dog doesnt pick up all the birds ,I can blame it on a frozen birds and not my dog or her training


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'll say it once more, I believe a properly frozen, properly thawed prior to the stake, bird is as good or maybe better than a flyer shot that day and stored in a burlap sack for an hour. For those of you that claim they have never encountered a once frozen bird at a hunt test, how do you know? Assuming the birds are completely thawed to ambient temperature how would that bird differ from one that had never been frozen? The reality is in the first series we usually get nice dead birds at the dead bird stations and freshly shot flyers at the flyer station, then it all goes downhill as birds get wet and used over and over. That said I have never had a dog blink, or even hesitate to pick up a bird in twenty years of trialing. For the huge majority of trials or hunt test I have attended, the only issue I have had with birds was how well the flyers flew when thrown.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Amen John!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

As a young dog, and occasionally over the years, "stepping on a mark" wasn't good enough so my dog loved to do a "drop and roll" on the very nastiest of skanky ducks.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> I'll say it once more, I believe a properly frozen, properly thawed prior to the stake, bird is as good or maybe better than a flyer shot that day and stored in a burlap sack for an hour. *For those of you that claim they have never encountered a once frozen bird at a hunt test, how do you know?* Assuming the birds are completely thawed to ambient temperature how would that bird differ from one that had never been frozen? The reality is in the first series we usually get nice dead birds at the dead bird stations and freshly shot flyers at the flyer station, then it all goes downhill as birds get wet and used over and over. That said I have never had a dog blink, or even hesitate to pick up a bird in twenty years of trialing. For the huge majority of trials or hunt test I have attended, the only issue I have had with birds was how well the flyers flew when thrown.


*I saw them being killed*. I understand we have a different take on this but I do know what I've seen. I do know what I've heard at the end of a test when the bird steward asked what to do with what was left over and he was told to take a count so they knew what to charge the other club. I just like the way it is done around here and not the other way. They seem to have ahold of the situation regarding enough birds to run an AKC test by the book and still put on 2 professional, high quality tests a year. The most I have paid is $85 for a test. If they weren't making a profit I don't know why they would run it in that manor. It is ok for us to disagree on any subject but if the AKC came down on your club for not following the rules what would you do? Would they take away your passing marks? I don't know the answer to those kind of questions and wouldn't want to have to explain it away.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

A partially frozen or nasty duck is something you might encounter in a HT/FT ,so like everything else ,you should train for that situation. My dog are exposed to frozen birds and birds so nasty their ........well you know.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

shawninthesticks said:


> A partially frozen or nasty duck is something you might encounter in a HT/FT ,so like everything else ,you should train for that situation. My dog are exposed to frozen birds and birds so nasty their ........well you know.


Mine are exposed to them too during training and live whenever possible.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't want my dogs to have to retrieve any bird that is unfit to be dressed out cooked and eaten.

john


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i read this thread from last post to first just now. it is very enlightening. my observations are;

-a dead bird is a dead bird. as long as it doesn't sink if thrown in water, i expect my dogs to find it.(my dogs do not always meet my expectations though)

-following each and every rule to the letter is very important to some people. i respect these people because losing with integrity is way better than just losing!;-)

-but i like the idea of $125 entry fees. this could keep out the riff raff and us wealthy folk could sit in the chairs, watch our pros run our dogs and not be bothered by the am "train my own 'cause it's a reflection on me" hackers.

-if fees go up, participation will go down. statistically this could improve my chances of getting a ribbon.(my chances at a placement could improve to "slim" from where my chances are currently)

-our club is in the south. we are open minded and willing to do what ever is necessary to put on a good trial. but sexing birds is simply out of the question.

-i fear if our club buys more live birds the wine selections at our worker and judges dinners could suffer.

-and lastly.......HAS ANYONE BUT ME BEEN WATCHING IT RAIN???? EARS OF CORN LOOK LIKE STOVE WOOD IN EVERY PART OF THE COUNTRY I HAVE BEEN IN!!!! DECEMBER CORN CLOSED AT $4.98 YESTERDAY, FIRST TIME BELOW FIVE DOLLARS IN RECENT MEMORY!!!!! DUCKS SHOULD BE $8 NEXT SPRING, LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL!!!!!

disclaimer: the federal government could make gas 20% ethanol and alter grain futures and my predictions


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

roseberry said:


> i read this thread from last post to first just now. it is very enlightening. my observations are;
> 
> -a dead bird is a dead bird. as long as it doesn't sink if thrown in water, i expect my dogs to find it.(my dogs do not always meet my expectations though)
> 
> ...


You forgot to mention Mr. Fallon eats the test birds.


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

john fallon said:


> I don't want my dogs to have to retrieve any bird that is unfit to be dressed out cooked and eaten.mn
> 
> john


Sorry but this statement is low hanging fruit. 

After 90 degree day there are some birds which you may consider. If, for example, you put a fresh steak out on the porch/deck at 8am would you eat it at 7pm? This could be same situation when running the land blind for the fresh flier hanging all day shot at 8am. Would you eat that bird? I do know some cultures would say yes.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

FOM said:


> NO. See my reply below as to why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 In all seriousness, I don't see the problem. Nor do I see the need to use frozen birds at any point in the test.

If 1.5 birds per entry is enough, 1.5 birds per entry is enough.
As far as I know it's not in writing, but the HRC does it that way. And while they don't usually shoot flyers, they still could for every dog.

If 1.5 birds per entry are ordered and available at the beginning of the test or trial, is there EVER a point in time that either 2, or 2.5 live birds would NOT be available for any given dog entered in the event?

That is, provided you don't gas so many that you can't provide at least 1 flyer for each dog that is running in whatever Senior or Master series that the Judges wish to use a flyer.

This is what the rule says.


> A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test levels.


 183 birds, is a lot more than two. There's only one dog at the line at a time. Does that dog have two live birds available?

Yes it does. 
And the same can be said at any point in the test.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Besides, I'm not sure how you can possibly make available 0.5 live birds for use at the discretion of the Judges.

If you have 1.5 live birds, I'd say that you can round up and call it two live birds.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> *I saw them being killed*. I understand we have a different take on this but I do know what I've seen. I do know what I've heard at the end of a test when the bird steward asked what to do with what was left over and he was told to take a count so they knew what to charge the other club. I just like the way it is done around here and not the other way. They seem to have ahold of the situation regarding enough birds to run an AKC test by the book and still put on 2 professional, high quality tests a year. The most I have paid is $85 for a test. If they weren't making a profit I don't know why they would run it in that manor. It is ok for us to disagree on any subject but if the AKC came down on your club for not following the rules what would you do? Would they take away your passing marks? I don't know the answer to those kind of questions and wouldn't want to have to explain it away


What club was this?
They must have one hell of a marketing strategy. I have to haul ours to the dump.
Pete


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Pete said:


> What club was this?
> They must have one hell of a marketing strategy. I have to haul ours to the dump.
> Pete


Pete, they are selling the other club LIVE ducks they didn't use.-Paul


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Dan Storts said:


> Sorry but this statement is low hanging fruit.
> 
> After 90 degree day there are some birds which you may consider. If, for example, you put a fresh steak out on the porch/deck at 8am would you eat it at 7pm? This could be same situation when running the land blind for *the fresh flier hanging all day shot at 8am*. Would you eat that bird? I do know some cultures would say yes.



This post points out the reason for a lot of the problem.... that is POOR dead bird management. 

As much or probaly even more of a problem than the heat is flies.
The dead freshly killed birds as well as the reconstituted  previously frozen ones, if you insist on using them, should be protected from both the heat and the flies. 

Earlier in the thread EdA discribed one way to keep the birds cool, that is with Ice and coolers. There are a lot of other ways and sometimes one must be creative in the use of shade and screan fabric small sheds with air conditioners and fans etc., etc., etc......
But why bother when it is a lot easier to jusr give it an "F" it.




> If 1.5 birds per entry are ordered and available at the beginning of the test or trial, is there EVER a point in time that either 2, or 2.5 live birds would NOT be available for any given dog entered in the event?


When the Standing Recs.(shown in the rulebook in _italics,_ meaning that they should be given the weight of a rule) specafically call out for 2.5 live birds per dog entered to be available at the begining of the test/trial as the formula to arrive at a *total* number of live birds , It is mind sets such as this one in the quote that hignlight the need for a BIGGER rulebook.



john


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

paul young said:


> Pete, they are selling the other club LIVE ducks they didn't use.-Paul


Thanks Paul, and Copterdoc, I think you hit the nail on the head. There is no need for frozen birds or making a club purchase 2-3 times more birds than needed to run a 100% totally fair, no complaining, under the rules test. Pete, if you can ever get to one of the Back Bay Knots Island Retriever Clubs tests you will really enjoy yourself. They had the Junior ROTC from one of the local schools come out and help and the kids were great! I'm not a member of the club, just impressed.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gary Southall said:


> Thanks Paul, and Copterdoc, I think you hit the nail on the head. There is no need for frozen birds or making a club purchase 2-3 times more birds than needed to run a 100% totally fair, no complaining,* under the rules test*. Pete, if you can ever get to one of the Back Bay Knots Island Retriever Clubs tests you will really enjoy yourself. They had the Junior ROTC from one of the local schools come out and help and the kids were great! I'm not a member of the club, just impressed.


As mentioned, there is a standing recommendation to the contrary... There are methods in place to facilitate rule changes, as of this writing, to ignore them is not one of them. 

john


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

As usual we seem to be arguing nits. Can we all agree on three things, 1) no club or individual should knowingly break an AKC rule, 2) clubs and club workers should do their best to preserve birds for the duration of the trial, and 3) judges should be allowed to shoot a flyer in at least two marking test? 

I just judged a 57 dog amateur two weeks ago and ran a trail last week with a 63 dogs in the AM and Open. Both trials went the same as most every trial I have been to, the first series had two or three dead bird stations and one live bird station. There were some dead birds in very nice shape available to start the trial that I as a judge in one instance and handler in the other, have no idea where they came from. I don't know if they shot them that morning, though I doubt it, I don't know if they were frozen at one time and frankly I don't care, all I care about is that they were all in very good shape and other than being air temp versus warm blooded, indistinguishable from a just shot bird. By the fourth series the field had been whittled down, but every dog that ran it got another fresh shot live flyer and multiple dead birds that were shot on Friday or Saturday depending. After two days many birds were skanky despite good efforts by the club to sort them and hang them in a cool dry place under fans and away from flies, those birds had to be discarded, but there were enough good birds sorted out to handle that last series.

Now I don't run hunt test, so can't comment on that, maybe they have issues, but I don't recall hearing any complaints about this at field trials.

John


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> As usual we seem to be arguing nits. Can we all agree on three things, 1) *no club or individual should knowingly break an AKC rule, *2) clubs and club workers should do their best to preserve birds for the duration of the trial, and 3) judges should be allowed to shoot a flyer in at least two marking test?
> 
> I just judged a 57 dog amateur two weeks ago and ran a trail last week with a 63 dogs in the AM and Open. Both trials went the same as most every trial I have been to, the first series had two or three dead bird stations and one live bird station. There were some dead birds in very nice shape available to start the trial that I as a judge in one instance and handler in the other, have no idea where they came from. I don't know if they shot them that morning, though I doubt it, I don't know if they were frozen at one time and frankly I don't care, all I care about is that they were all in very good shape and other than being air temp versus warm blooded, indistinguishable from a just shot bird. By the fourth series the field had been whittled down, but every dog that ran it got another fresh shot live flyer and multiple dead birds that were shot on Friday or Saturday depending. After two days many birds were skanky despite good efforts by the club to sort them and hang them in a cool dry place under fans and away from flies, those birds had to be discarded, but there were enough good birds sorted out to handle that last series.
> 
> ...



In light of the posts on this thread condoning acting to the contrary, including yours now being quoted as you appear to be saying that the end result justifies the means. Can you amplify your position on the standing rec.

john


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

john fallon said:


> When the Standing Recs.(shown in the rulebook in _italics,_ meaning that they should be given the weight of a rule) specafically call out for 2.5 live birds per dog *entered *to be available *at the begining of the test/trial* as the formula to arrive at a *total* number of live birds , It is mind sets such as this one in the quote that hignlight the need for a BIGGER rulebook.


Sorry, but the rule book does not say per dog ENTERED nor does it state that the available birds must be available at the BEGINNING of the trial. Please stop trying to add additional requirements to the rules just because you interpret them differently than others.



FT Rule Book Dated May 2010 said:


> That a minimum of two and one-half live flying game birds per dog be made available for use in the Open, Limited All-Age, Special All-Age, Restricted All-Age and Amateur or Owner-Handler Amateur Stakes in any trial carrying championship points and that a minimum of two live birds per dog be made available for use in the Derby and Qualifying Stakes.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

john fallon said:


> In light of the posts on this thread condoning acting to the contrary, including yours now being quoted as you appear to be saying that the end result justifies the means. Can you amplify your position on the standing rec.
> 
> john


Sure, I'll amplify, the standing rec. is that a club have _available_ to the judges 2.5 live birds per dog, nowhere is there any language forcing the judges to use those birds in a certain way or use them at all. I don't get your ends justify the means comment, where is any rule being broken? Are you seriously arguing that every field trial in the nation breaks an AKC rule and has for fifty years, yet not one complaint, as far as I know, has been filed with AKC?

John


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Gary Southall said:


> *I saw them being killed*..


Not a good thing. Birds should be humanely dispatched out of sight or shot as a flier, where we can at least argue their deaths had a purpose, of testing a dog. I'm not a purple bunny hugger, but things like this will be the death of the Live Flyer in our hunt test. Then everyone will be using dead frozen birds that were brought in. Shoot the AKC rep is going so far as telling us to cover our bird hangers, wait until someone gets a video of something like this to post up.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Not a good thing. Birds should be humanely dispatched out of sight or shot as a flier, where we can at least argue their deaths had a purpose. I'm not a purple bunny hugger, but things like this will be the death of the Live Flyer in our hunt test, then everyone will be using dead frozen birds that were brought in. Shoot the AKC rep is telling up to cover our bird hangers, wait until someone gets a video of something like this to post up.


Please don't get me or take it wrong. They were dispatched in a manner that I have seen at every hunt test I've been too. Shot at the flyer station and then taken to the winger station. 6 birds to start and then they re-birded after the first 6 dogs ran with everything they had brought back to the judges and so on. I try to arrive early to a test so I can air my pups so I saw them setting up for the test.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> As usual we seem to be arguing nits. Can we all agree on three things, 1) no club or individual should knowingly break an AKC rule, 2) clubs and club workers should do their best to preserve birds for the duration of the trial, and 3) judges should be allowed to shoot a flyer in at least two marking test?
> 
> I don't know if they shot them that morning, though I doubt it, I don't know if they were frozen at one time and frankly I don't care, all I care about is that they were all in very good shape and other than being air temp versus warm blooded, indistinguishable from a just shot bird. By the fourth series the field had been whittled down, but every dog that ran it got another fresh shot live flyer and multiple dead birds that were shot on Friday or Saturday depending. After two days many birds were skanky despite good efforts by the club to sort them and hang them in a cool dry place under fans and away from flies, those birds had to be discarded, but there were enough good birds sorted out to handle that last series.
> John


Very good post, John. You describe my first-hand experience working at trials where I live. My experience for one club -- all during the day the birds are sorted and bagged as to condition. At the end of the day the dead birds in bags are brought back to a barn which is "headquarters", the bags are dumped out and re-sorted. Only good birds are hung and covered with screen cloth to be used the next day. Bad birds are disposed of in usually a dumpster rented for this purpose. Early in the morning (say 6:30 a.m.), a handful or workers meets at the barn to remove the birds from the racks, evaluate them again, and only good birds get taken out for the day's series. Evaluating birds is ongoing until the trial ends on Sunday. The freshly shot fliers that day and birds still in good shape for training are offered to the judges and to those who worked the trial. Dead birds are free. They quickly get chosen and disappear (unfortunately, the club loses a lot of gunny sacks in the process). Club members and entrants can buy left over live birds from the club. Seldom do we have enough live birds to go around because our event chairmen are good at estimating how many birds to order plus the bird supplier adds 10% as a safeguard. We have never been short.

I don't think this is unique m-o... probably a lot of clubs operate the same way. I think some of the persons who have posted here with concerns have not worked a trial lately nor have they participated in how live and dead birds are handled by clubs. 

Helen


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Gary Southall said:


> Please don't get me or take it wrong. They were dispatched in a manner that I have seen at every hunt test I've been too. I try to arrive early to a test so I can air my pups.


I know it's standard, but it's stupid; clubs throwing tests are going to have to get smarter than that. Of course maybe we're hyper-aware as we throw tests in So-California, a lot of bunny huggers out here, just waiting. Which is why our dead-birds previously frozen or not; arrive on the grounds already dispatched, in ice-chests.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

helencalif said:


> Very good post, John. You describe my first-hand experience working at trials where I live. My experience for one club -- all during the day the birds are sorted and bagged as to condition. At the end of the day the dead birds in bags are brought back to a barn which is "headquarters", the bags are dumped out and re-sorted. Only good birds are hung and covered with screen cloth to be used the next day. Bad birds are disposed of in usually a dumpster rented for this purpose. Early in the morning (say 6:30 a.m.), a handful or workers meets at the barn to remove the birds from the racks, evaluate them again, and only good birds get taken out for the day's series. Evaluating birds is ongoing until the trial ends on Sunday. The freshly shot fliers that day and birds still in good shape for training are offered to the judges and to those who worked the trial. Dead birds are free. They quickly get chosen and disappear (unfortunately, the club loses a lot of gunny sacks in the process). Club members and entrants can buy left over live birds from the club. Seldom do we have enough live birds to go around because our event chairmen are good at estimating how many birds to order plus the bird supplier adds 10% as a safeguard. We have never been short.
> 
> I don't think this is unique m-o... probably a lot of clubs operate the same way. I think some of the persons who have posted here with concerns have not worked a trial lately nor have they participated in how live and dead birds are handled by clubs.
> 
> Helen


This is exactly what the clubs I belong to do. The only thing I have to add is that in my experience it is less than a handful of people involved in caring for and sorting the birds. Most consider this job beneath them. -Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

paul young said:


> This is exactly what the clubs I belong to do. The only thing I have to add is that in my experience it is less than a handful of people involved in caring for and sorting the birds. Most consider this job beneath them. -Paul


They are the smart ones that sort (take) all the best birds and sneak them into their truck at night then ask where all the fresh birds went the next day while making a scene about it. But, during the year are never short a fresh frozen fluffy duck? makes ya wonder huh?


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

paul young said:


> This is exactly what the clubs I belong to do. The only thing I have to add is that in my experience it is less than a handful of people involved in caring for and sorting the birds. Most consider this job beneath them. -Paul


Paul,

Our club is so fortunate to have an active and responsible Field Trial Chairman and a very active, hard-working gal who takes charge of the birds and distributing the equipment for each stake so the marshals just have to show up in the early morning and take "their pile" of what they need for their stake. We also have a gal who is an excellent head marshal who tells her marshals how to handle birds at their stakes. At the end of the day, the FT Chairman, the Head Marshal, and our great FT "manager" plus maybe 3 others (sometimes me included, I am often a bag holder), go through the birds. So we have about 3 bird sorters and 3 bag holders for the bad birds (total 6 club members) sorting and hanging birds. We are also busy taking in equipment and sorting it for the next day's series. Sometimes the bird boys stay long enough to help hang the "good" birds. Those 6 club members plus some hanger-on helpers will be working until 8 or 9 p.m. Fri and Sat night. A few beers and a lot of discussion about how the day went and what is to happen the next day means a mighty late dinner (or no dinner). 

We'll be up early and meeting at 6:30 the next morning to get that day started. 

This probably happens at more clubs than not. Those who don't work trials probably would not have any idea of the work going on behind the scenes to put on a trial. The work doesn't begin when the test dog runs.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I know it's standard, but it's stupid; clubs throwing tests are going to have to get smarter than that. Of course maybe we're hyper-aware as we throw tests in So-California, a lot of bunny huggers out here, just waiting. Which is why our dead-birds previously frozen or not; arrive on the grounds already dispatched, in ice-chests.


Thank goodness that here on the "Right Coast" we apparently don't get as much of that. At least not out here in the country. And the birds that were dispatched that day where given away at the end of the test.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

helencalif said:


> Paul,
> 
> Our club is so fortunate to have an active and responsible Field Trial Chairman and a very active, hard-working gal who takes charge of the birds and distributing the equipment for each stake so the marshals just have to show up in the early morning and take "their pile" of what they need for their stake. We also have a gal who is an excellent head marshal who tells her marshals how to handle birds at their stakes. At the end of the day, the FT Chairman, the Head Marshal, and our great FT "manager" plus maybe 3 others (sometimes me included, I am often a bag holder), go through the birds. So we have about 3 bird sorters and 3 bag holders for the bad birds (total 6 club members) sorting and hanging birds. We are also busy taking in equipment and sorting it for the next day's series. Sometimes the bird boys stay long enough to help hang the "good" birds. Those 6 club members plus some hanger-on helpers will be working until 8 or 9 p.m. Fri and Sat night. A few beers and a lot of discussion about how the day went and what is to happen the next day means a mighty late dinner (or no dinner).
> 
> ...


It's another topic, but clubs like yours are a pleasure to judge. The poster child for well run trials is the one Brooke Vandebrake puts on with help from his family and training workers at Samish. He makes sure there is a knowledgeable dog guy assisting the judges as they set up, then at the end of the day, that person finds out exactly what they want. Judges show up at 7:00 am next morning to find the whole test already set up. Gun stations, well hid holding blinds, guns, shells, drinks, everything ready to go. Brooke takes it personal if dog #1 isn't on line 8:00 sharp.

John


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> They are the smart ones that sort (take) all the best birds and sneak them into their truck at night then ask where all the fresh birds went the next day while making a scene about it. But, during the year are never short a fresh frozen fluffy duck? makes ya wonder huh?


IMHO, this should not happen, but I know it does. It is considered a "perk" by some. But not at my club. Having good dead birds for the trial is foremost. Picking and choosing by workers needing training birds is allowed late Sunday after the trial is over and after our "bird manager" has picked some birds to take home to put in her freezer to be used to start the next trial or hunt test. FT Chairman does the same... picks some birds for the freezer to be used to start the next trial or hunt test. This is a "picking order" of sorts. It's our club's m-o and it works for us. If 200 birds are killed, you will probably have 100 good ones left over. Plenty to pick from and to go around... for the club, judges, and trial workers.

Our trial is in early February. Usually cold, sometimes rainy. Birds last. No heat problem, no meat bee or fly problems. 

About dispatching birds... done discreetly by someone who knows they are to go behind a blind or kneel on the ground in front of their chair on the line behind the judges. Nobody stands out in the open to dispatch a bird. If you see this, don't complain here. Complain to the FT Chairman or member of the FT Committee when you see it happen. The club will get the message.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> Sorry, but the rule book does not say per dog ENTERED nor does it state that the available birds must be available at the BEGINNING of the trial. Please stop trying to add additional requirements to the rules just because you interpret them differently than others.


My first post on this thread tells you what I think about the fact that the AKC is about to sort this bird thing out.http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...en-birds-AKC&p=1128953&viewfull=1#post1128953

But in the meantime help me out... *Other than the fliers **must the club have any live birds available for the judges at the beginning of the trial*.
Are you saying that even though the supp mentions 2.5/2, either no more are REQUIRED to be available or it is an arbitrary lesser number that is conspicuous by its absence from the rules?????

john


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

helencalif said:


> Very good post, John. You describe my first-hand experience working at trials where I live. My experience for one club -- all during the day the birds are sorted and bagged as to condition. At the end of the day the dead birds in bags are brought back to a barn which is "headquarters", the bags are dumped out and re-sorted. Only good birds are hung and covered with screen cloth to be used the next day. Bad birds are disposed of in usually a dumpster rented for this purpose. Early in the morning (say 6:30 a.m.), a handful or workers meets at the barn to remove the birds from the racks, evaluate them again, and only good birds get taken out for the day's series. Evaluating birds is ongoing until the trial ends on Sunday. The freshly shot fliers that day and birds still in good shape for training are offered to the judges and to those who worked the trial. Dead birds are free. They quickly get chosen and disappear (unfortunately, the club loses a lot of gunny sacks in the process). Club members and entrants can buy left over live birds from the club. Seldom do we have enough live birds to go around because our event chairmen are good at estimating how many birds to order plus the bird supplier adds 10% as a safeguard. We have never been short.
> 
> I don't think this is unique m-o... probably a lot of clubs operate the same way. I think some of the persons who have posted here with concerns have not worked a trial lately nor have they participated in how live and dead birds are handled by clubs.
> 
> Helen


Same here....sort all day long and the fresh fliers at the end of each stake are put into a fridge (as many as we can, some have to be used to replace the ones that have been deemed unusable) so they are cooled as fast as possible and can be frozen for the next event. I'm thinking a lot of people are thinking we use a metric ton of thawed birds, we don't....we use enough to try and get about 10 dogs run before our first rebird on Friday's Open (about 5 dogs in the Q, there is more down time in a Q, so rebirding is easier) - our goal is to try and get a flow to the stake established...there are 100 million other things going on to get a stake going, it's helpful not to have to rebird every 3-4 dogs.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

john fallon said:


> My first post on this thread tells you what I think about the fact that the AKC is about to sort this bird thing out.
> 
> But in the meantime help me out... *Other than the fliers **must the club have any live birds available for the judges at the beginning of the trial*.
> Are you saying that even though the supp mentions 2.5/2, either no more are REQUIRED to be available or it is an arbitrary lesser number that is conspicuous by its absence from the rules?????
> ...


I don't know how you do it, but we don't start all our stakes on the same day - so we have all the birds ordered on the grounds, so if the Open judges for what ever reason decided they wanted nothing but freshly killed birds to start the trial that were shot right then and there via the LF station and assume a single flyer and a triple, then we could do that....same goes for the Qualifying....

Concrete example: 

49 + 20 (10 birds at two DB stations) + 10% for no birds (7) = 76 birds for the Open

26 + 10 (5 birds at 2 DB stations) + 10% for no birds (4) + 12 for the water marks = 52 birds for the Qualifying

We have on ordered 183 birds, which means on Friday evening we would be down to 55 birds and I'd call my bird supplier and say we need more birds for Saturday and I'd go pick the darn things up. Same applies for Sunday. (Edit: And I cry in my beer because I know we would only be going more into the red)

So really....you tell me that this has not been thought out to the 9th degree?? Please, file a complaint with the AKC, I listed the information for the event prior....and please tell me where to send you a membership application so you can be the head honcho and run our events for us, because apparently we don't know jack.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

The real rub is not really the number of Live Birds or Flyers but the poor condition of birds that have been reused, recycled, rotting, saturated, magotized etc...........
.
.
*The rule book states "Bad Birds" should not be used.*
(5) *Every bird* retrieved, and delivered to the handler, *should be inspected *by one of the Judges, preferably not the one who is calling numbers. *Failure* to inspect retrieved birds must be cataloged as *carelessness*, and as an *undesirable* practice. It is *unfair to all dogs that **are being tested* —not alone in respect to the question of “hard-mouth,’’ but, more particularly, since it may furnish the explanation for a slow pick-up or some other oddity in a dog’s performance. *Any unusual condition **of a bird*, such as being badly “shot-up,’’ etc., should be brought to the attention of the Judges. *If the **same birds are to be used again, those that are injured should be set aside and not used again.*
.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Breck said:


> The real rub is not really the number of Live Birds or Flyers but the poor condition of birds that have been reused, recycled, rotting, saturated, magotized etc...........
> .
> .
> *The rule book states "Bad Birds" should not be used.*
> ...


Aren't all birds injured? They are dead for the most part...I'd consider that an injury. 

I have birds that have been retrieved once - flyers from a previous event from just over 7 weeks ago, that were frozen and will be used. They were in near perfect condition (they were shot at after all) and will be in near perfect condition when thawed. I find nothing unusual about that - now if by chance one of the birds is "yucky" once it's thawed it will go in the discard pile. I think the assumption that a thawed bird equals a bad bird is a poor assumption, not saying it doesn't happen, but to paint a broad brush that all thawed birds are bad is inaccurate.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

FOM said:


> Aren't all birds injured? They are dead for the most part...I'd consider that an injury.
> 
> I have birds that have been retrieved once - flyers from a previous event from just over 7 weeks ago, that were frozen and will be used. They were in near perfect condition (they were shot at after all) and will be in near perfect condition when thawed. I find nothing unusual about that - now if by chance one of the birds is "yucky" once it's thawed it will go in the discard pile. *I think the assumption that a thawed bird equals a bad bird is a poor assumption, not saying it doesn't happen, but to paint a broad brush that all thawed birds are bad is inaccurate*.


That was the point I was making earlier, I would rather have a nice thawed previously frozen bird than a just shot skanky bird. The reality where I run is that most trials start off the day by shooting a handful of flyers for a few reasons, 1) gives the flyer guns some practice, 2) gives the judges a look at the "flyer, 3) it provides some fresh birds to start the trial. That said, if a club had some nice thawed out birds from who-knows-where, I wouldn't have a problem starting the dead bird stations with those. Just do the things Breck posted from the rule book and it will be ok, frozen birds or not.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> That was the point I was making earlier, I would rather have a nice thawed previously frozen bird than a just shot skanky bird. The reality where I run is that most trials start off the day by shooting a handful of flyers for a few reasons, 1) gives the flyer guns some practice, 2) gives the judges a look at the "flyer, 3) it provides some fresh birds to start the trial. That said, if a club had some nice thawed out birds from who-knows-where, I wouldn't have a problem starting the dead bird stations with those. Just do the things Breck posted from the rule book and it will be ok, frozen birds or not.


The OP asked if there was a rule in place restricting the use of previously frozen birds in favor of using the subject birds in Standing Recs. Dispite the verbage there , you feel that the answer is no. Or so you have stated, pointing out periferal bird quality issues and personal preferences to bolster your point. The resultant bird quality of either scnerio aside, there either is a rule or there is not

Baised on how I interpret Standing Recs. 4. I have a strong feeling that you are incorrect.

john


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

FOM said:


> Aren't all birds injured? They are dead for the most part...I'd consider that an injury.
> 
> I have birds that have been retrieved once - flyers from a previous event from just over 7 weeks ago, that were frozen and will be used. They were in near perfect condition (they were shot at after all) and will be in near perfect condition when thawed. I find nothing unusual about that - now if by chance one of the birds is "yucky" once it's thawed it will go in the discard pile. I think the assumption that a thawed bird equals a bad bird is a poor assumption, not saying it doesn't happen, but to paint a broad brush that all thawed birds are bad is inaccurate.


.
My post made zero mention of frozen birds. 
But, I feel reusing nicely preserved and frozen birds is a non issue. Problems arise when birds are not cared for properly during the day and over night. Granted there is a lot going on during a trial all day and at dusk people are tired so things that could be done are sometimes not. Like when it's 90 out at an 80 dog open and the just shot flyers are being bagged for rebirds rather than being collected and cooled somewhere before going back in the field. Birds are thrown in piles at the line rather than using drying racks and wet birds are bagged right away then left in the sun to compost. When was the last time you saw someone working the line drying off birds with one of those walmart shammy cloths? At best birds are spread on barn floor overnight but often have a group sleep over cuddling in a feed bag.
Using frozen birds that have gone through the freeze / thaw cycle a number of times is another problem. As in, freezer birds are from club or land owners or pros training groups. As we all normally do birds are cycled in and out of the freezer during the year and come trial time the bags in the club freezer at that moment are what goes out to the field. Not until those recycled birds go through a rebird or 3 is it evident they were skanky the last time they went in the freezer. And to make things worse these birds are now mixed in with the decent ones. Folks shooting a flyer or 3 for each dog weekly go through a lot of freekin birds so bird care for freezing is not always a priority, birds put up wet etc so there is always a bag of birds in the freezer ready for the grave. From my experience these kind of birds are usually in the mix.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

paul young said:


> Save your breath, John. Nobody is listening. Your club can do it and the clubs I belong to can do it. When I judged at Del Bay (John Fallon's club) we had fresh birds -FLYER ROOSTERS, AT THAT. I'm judging in VT. This weekend and I'm pretty sure of what we'll be throwing for the dogs up there, but apparently no one else can afford it.
> 
> Carry on, everyone.......-Paul


See you Friday Paul.. I thought we were using pigeons , not roosters regards....


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

For example ,this a bad bird in SRS events.


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Bob and Ann, are you still reading this stuff? What have you done?


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

not to take this thread off track, but I remember at a NAHRA test a few years back where on the water series, when the judges would hand the birds to a worker to be placed on the rack, he would wipe them down with either paper towels or a chamois. Then onto the rack they'd go and they'd then have a fan on them overnight. Just that little bit of extra attention of wiping the wet birds down and removing a lot of that water helped preserve those birds for reuse.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Our trial is in June. The flies and the heat are terrible usually. A bird rack, unless it's screened just makes it easier for the flies to get to the birds. Even with a screened box a few flies get in and lay a million eggs. The barn we use to keep equipment and birds in has no power. It's very hard to deal with.

Drying the birds isn't an issue, if they're hung overnight individually they're dry in the morning.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

John Lash said:


> Our trial is in June. The flies and the heat are terrible usually. A bird rack, unless it's screened just makes it easier for the flies to get to the birds. Even with a screened box a few flies get in and lay a million eggs. The barn we use to keep equipment and birds in has no power. It's very hard to deal with.


The barn we use also has no power. My husband bought a used generator and strung up some lights in the barn. The club now has lights to see early in the morning and also can now run fans on the birds. The club pays for the gas to run the generator. Our trial is in February when it is cold. The generator is also used for lights outside the barn so we have lighting for our BBQ dinner held for our hunt test in April. This was a generator brought in for repair but apparently never picked up. He bought it for the repair bill.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I think with a few sheets of plywood or rigid foam and a cheap window AC unit, you could make a nice bird dryer/cooler for warm days to help manage the birds.


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