# Puppy prices



## Denney (Oct 23, 2007)

With the current discussion on Pachanga Magnum Force and the litter of $5000.00, got me thinking what are some reasonable/normal prices with both parents having either hunt test titles and/or field titles?


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

i'd say between 600-2000 600 being SH some MH level up to FC x FC for 2 grand


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

FCxFC would be a good deal for $2000.00


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

lillusk3 said:


> i'd say between 600-2000 600 being SH some MH level up to FC x FC for 2 grand


Where can we get those? Do you know something we don't???

Angie


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

what are average FC x FC pups going for?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Well the average prices I was getting for a FC x FC was 2,500 to 5,000 and I know there were other litters going for more than that......

FOM


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

lillusk3 said:


> what are average FC x FC pups going for?


I thought you knew?

Angie


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

lillusk3 said:


> what are average FC x FC pups going for?


I wouldn't pay more than $500.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Buzz said:


> I wouldn't pay more than $500.


Now your talk'n......;-)

Angie


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Angie B said:


> I thought you knew?
> 
> Angie


i was only quoting what i've seen, but maybe i haven't seen much..


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

FC-AFC Trumarc's Chubby Mac x MH about 1500
Tiger McBunn x NFC Zinger 3500
Way Da-Go-Rocky x Echos Triple Ruff and Ready both Nat. Finalists 2000 choc Elwood Litter blacks 800-1000
highTech CEO x MH chocoate 1500 Choc 800 blk
FC Rough x FC 2000+


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Price is what you pay....Value is what it's worth.

Truthfully, I would not pay more than $1500.00 for even a FC to FC breeding. 
Not when earlier this summer there were 3 FC x FC pups that were GIVEN away...that's right FREE !!!!
________
B30 engine


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

lillusk3 said:


> i was only quoting what i've seen, but maybe i haven't seen much..


That could be....;-)

Angie


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

You also need to take into consideration what kind of health clearances the parents/grandparents, etc have. that is part of the pup price. It is expensive to get all that testing done. And what kind of health guarantee the breeder is offering, if any. If it is a repeat breeding. there are many factors that dictate a puppy price, so it is almost impossible to put a number on it.

Kris


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

I have seen some really good deals lately. Seems like the market is a little fat. There was recently a Patton pup for like $600 and there was an FC X MH for like 400 on the classifieds a while back.


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## James A. (Mar 28, 2005)

Angie B said:


> I thought you knew?
> 
> Angie


LOL....That is funny


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## KEITH L (Nov 2, 2005)

my last litter nfc afc x fc last year i sold for 1700.00 each i value a good home more than
the money i recieved. 

keith
________
HONDA CANADA INC.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

KEITH L said:


> my last litter nfc afc x fc last year i sold for 1700.00 each i value a good home more than
> the money i recieved.
> 
> keith


i guess I PROVED MY POINT!  see it can be true!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I think some of the prices are flat stupid. Not one puppy was every born an FC/AFC. Every single one of them was made. I had a 1500.00 Patton puppy in training that I would have traded in a heartbeat for the 500.00 Fargo puppy in the kennel next to him. 

/Paul


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

KEITH L said:


> my last litter nfc afc x fc last year i sold for 1700.00 each i value a good home more than
> the money i recieved.
> 
> keith


I agree 100% with Keith. I don't mind selling a pup for less if it is going to the right home. I recently inquired about a breeding of MH x MH. The litter was 8 pups total, and there were 7 left as of 8 weeks old. The breeder told me the pups were $1000, non-negotiable! This was a nice litter, but not worth any more than $500 or $600, in my opinion. Apparently this breeder was more into the money than the quality of home for these pups.


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

I find it rather sad that lab pups from good working titled parents and ancesters could be sell for a mere 400.00/500.00, while alot of pet breeds and even doodles could be over 2k.

To me Labs with good peds. should be worth so much more!!


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## bmontang (Feb 7, 2006)

What if it was a FC X Show champ labradoodle, then we are talking big bucks I bet.


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Captain Mike D said:


> I find it rather sad that lab pups from good working titled parents and ancesters could be sell for a mere 400.00/500.00, while alot of pet breeds and even doodles could be over 2k.
> 
> To me Labs with good peds. should be worth so much more!!



Aint that the truth.How many times have you met someone with some hybrid mutt pet store time bomb and hear them tell you that they paid 1500.00 or 2000.00 dollars for it.
I have a niece that recently bought a half dalmation,half pit bull at a big name pet store.1800.00 bucks is what she says she paid.It looks like a spotted pit bull.Scary looking thing. My labs' pedigree has very few dogs in it that aren't titled and alot of well known dogs and he was 600.00.


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## Gwen Jones (Jun 19, 2004)

Before any of us who charge $2,500 or $3,000 for a pup from FC X FC get a bad name, please remember the $3,000 we have to pay for semen, the shipping of the stuff was almost
$500 and then the surgery, progesterone tests etc. This is not a money making game but one of high costs, time off from trialing your bitch and a very limited window of opportunity. Unlike the males who can be frozen forever, a titled bitch has a short time to be in the gene pool.


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

Gwen, I don't think those prices are outlandish at all. Couple the expenses you have outlined with Cerfs, OFA, CNM etc. and the dollars spent in PROVING the pups line"s (ie. training and titles) and it would seem very easy to justify those prices.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Plus an FC bitch has a limited time for big litters. I think $2500-$3000 is reasonable if the bitch is outstanding and you like the breeding. Few breedings are worth the risk of spending $5K but then there is usually someone that will that has the funds.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Gwen Jones said:


> Before any of us who charge $2,500 or $3,000 for a pup from FC X FC get a bad name, please remember the $3,000 we have to pay for semen, the shipping of the stuff was almost
> $500 and then the surgery, progesterone tests etc. This is not a money making game but one of high costs, time off from trialing your bitch and a very limited window of opportunity. Unlike the males who can be frozen forever, a titled bitch has a short time to be in the gene pool.


Not to mention the risk of losing a nice bitch to a pregnancy with complications, a bitch that you have invested a considerable amount of money, time, and emotional energy.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I'll be selling my British Silver Pointing Labradoodles (from champion lines) for $4K each as soon as my bitch is old enough to breed. She's 8 months old now, so get your deposits in quick.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

I heard those "silver" labs go for about $1000-1200. You know since they are so rare and desirable.


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## Buster Brown (Oct 29, 2007)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Price is what you pay....Value is what it's worth.
> 
> Truthfully, I would not pay more than $1500.00 for even a FC to FC breeding.
> Not when earlier this summer there were 3 FC x FC pups that were GIVEN away...that's right FREE !!!!


Wow. I'll take one. Heck I'll take two


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Plus an FC bitch has a limited time for big litters. I think $2500-$3000 is reasonable if the bitch is outstanding and you like the breeding. Few breedings are worth the risk of spending $5K but then there is usually someone that will that has the funds.


That's what I've seen for along time and would expect.

Angie


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Hookset said:


> I'll be selling my British Silver Pointing Labradoodles (from champion lines) for $4K each as soon as my bitch is old enough to breed. She's 8 months old now, so get your deposits in quick.


You can always get the hips checked later and sell them on a limited registration for now.Those sound pretty nice. Why so cheap?


Seriously,it's been said here a bunch of times.The price you pay for the dog is nothing compared to what you will be paying as you go.Vet bills,training,training equipment,birds,time,etc.


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

Hookset said:


> I'll be selling my British Silver Pointing Labradoodles (from champion lines) for $4K each as soon as my bitch is old enough to breed. She's 8 months old now, so get your deposits in quick.



8 months is more than old enough to breed a bitch, isn't it?


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Price is what you pay....Value is what it's worth.
> 
> Truthfully, I would not pay more than $1500.00 for even a FC to FC breeding.
> Not when earlier this summer there were 3 FC x FC pups that were GIVEN away...that's right FREE !!!!


John,

There is a very low correlation between price and value in the dog business. I learned that first in the purebred cattle business.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Speaking of smoking deal, my wife picked up Chipper for a cool 1800.00 bucks...I told Tellus to keep his healers drool off that shiny coat....

/Paul


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Illinois Bob said:


> Aint that the truth.How many times have you met someone with some hybrid mutt pet store time bomb and hear them tell you that they paid 1500.00 or 2000.00 dollars for it.
> I have a niece that recently bought a half dalmation,half pit bull at a big name pet store.1800.00 bucks is what she says she paid.It looks like a spotted pit bull.Scary looking thing. My labs' pedigree has very few dogs in it that aren't titled and alot of well known dogs and he was 600.00.


where did she purchase this dog that can't hear or let go ? need one for the junkyard.

miricalear regards


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

While $5000 is way out of my price range for a pup, I have seen a couple of them in young dog training lately and they were performing extremely well for their ages. 

When a dog is destined to be with a pro for its entire career, the initial expense of one of these pups may actually be cost effective when the annual cost of training, vet bills, traveling to trials,etc may be in the range of $12,000 to $20,000 per year. Getting an extra edge for a few thousand dollars might be worth it.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Ive had my eye out for a FC AFC X FC AFC breeding where both parents have OFA or Penn Hip,CERF, and CNM clear........reeeeeeally slim pickins.


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

R Little said:


> where did she purchase this dog that can't hear or let go ? need one for the junkyard.
> 
> miricalear regards


I believe she shops at Petland.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

We do not have Petland here. Can we purchase one on line??


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Angie B said:


> Now your talk'n......;-)
> 
> Angie


Yeh, through his back end.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

lillusk3 said:


> i'd say between 600-2000 600 being SH some MH level up to FC x FC for 2 grand


I cannot imagine anyone with a Field Champion bitch selling their puppies for $2000, more realistic $3000-$5000


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> Yeh, through his back end.


Ya think??? LOL..... 

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> I cannot imagine anyone with a Field Champion bitch selling their puppies for $2000, more realistic $3000-$5000


A fact I know all too well


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Terry Thomas said:


> Yeh, through his back end.


Apparently I made a failed attempt at *sarcasm*.


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

Russ said:


> While $5000 is way out of my price range for a pup, I have seen a couple of them in young dog training lately and they were performing extremely well for their ages.
> 
> When a dog is destined to be with a pro for its entire career, the initial expense of one of these pups may actually be cost effective when the annual cost of training, vet bills, traveling to trials,etc may be in the range of $12,000 to $20,000 per year. Getting an extra edge for a few thousand dollars might be worth it.



Well put....................................................................................


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> A fact I know all too well


Yes but we continue to ride a winner (or hope to) for the rewards outweigh the risks, there are but 3 ways to acquire a "big time dog"

1. luck.......I've never been lucky, if I was I'd have already won the lottery

2. buy a proven winner......out of my budget

3. buy the best puppy I can lay my hands on, perhaps ultimately spending as much or more than in #2, but the outlay is prorated over months to years

Optimizing my chances 
Trumarc's Tubby Two Regards


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote:

1. luck.......I've never been lucky

And another:

_A fact I know all too well_

_*Now I can relate!!!*_


_*Gooser*_


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Considerations in pup price:

A FC is a FC is a FC? A 10 point FC or a 15 point AFC is the same as a dog with multiple wins and accumulated all-age points. A Tequila Sunrise pup (100+ all age points) is worth the same as a pup from a 10 point FC or 15 point AFC bitch? Same goes for the stud dog.

Pedigree? A pup from a fabulous pedigree FC AFC bitch is worth the same as a pup from a less than fabulous FC AFC bitch?

FC AFC bitch with accomplished littermates?

FC bitch with AFC title? The AFC bitch is some proof that she can be trained/handled by an Amateur.

FC AFC bitch that isn't prone to injury?

Others??

Buy the best-bred pup you can afford. It's a cheap "investment"!


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## ducksoup (Oct 3, 2005)

I paid $1700 Canadian for Maxx two years ago -- he's out of CFC CAFC X CFC -- thought it was reasonable as I got to see litter -- and Canadian $ was worth lot less than US $ in those days -- so buying Canadian seemed a better choice -- but any way, you get what you pay for (and wish for) -- Maxx is a high flier hard driving BLM and I'm glad I decided to keep him after foolishly thinking of selling him for a mere $3500 US -- he's everything I ever wanted in a dog and now that I'm the trainer and handler as well as owner he's a lot happier and we're looking forward to great things next year as we both advance into Qualifying and eventually All Age -- and I'd gladly pay that much or more when the time comes for another puppy (even in US dollars if need be)


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Maybe I'm just a cheap SOB, but I couldn't imagine paying $2,500-$5000 for a pup. I bought a GRHRCH UH Dakotas Cajun Roux MH female for $1000 and I was hard pressed to do that. But, I suppose if you got it then it's worth it.


Cory


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Buzz said:


> Apparently I made a failed attempt at *sarcasm*.


Don't be to thin skinned. I recognized it for what it eas and I'm sure Angie did also.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Terry Thomas said:


> Don't be to thin skinned. I recognized it for what it eas and I'm sure Angie did also.



I have to watch what I say on the internets. I was down with my pro on Friday, and I was taking crap from everyone about my comment. First thing I get out of my truck and I'm hearing about it. So far I think Raven was worth every penny, but ask me again in a year...


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

I should have also said that the price/pedigree of a pup can be driven by your long-term goals.

If you plan to train the dog for field trial and your goal is to have an all-age dog that is competitive at the national level and you want a dog that will hopefully go to the nat'l and/or nat'l am for a few years, then you will probably be willing to spend more for a "fancy" pedigree out of/by dogs that have achieved fc afc titles.


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## trinitylabs (Feb 13, 2006)

Denney said:


> With the current discussion on Pachanga Magnum Force and the litter of $5000.00, got me thinking what are some reasonable/normal prices with both parents having either hunt test titles and/or field titles?


Let's discuss cost of breeding: You have sperm shipping $400 both direction for the canister, Progesterone tests $250, Artificial Insemination at reproductive specialist 4 hours away $800, Ultra sound $200, X-ray to see how many pups are there $100. Scheduled C-section to ensure best chance of pup and bitch survival $900 - maybe optional if no problems arrive. Risking the life of you female - priceless. Rick of failed pregnancy uncalculable. Dewclaw removal and deworming $200, first set of shots including bordetella (at least 1st set of shots), microchips, HeartGuard Plus and Frontline Plus $1000. Puppy whelping box $250, pads and cleaning supplies $400, cleaning time - endless, quality food over at least 4 week period and puppy food for mom before delivery and during whelping $400, and don't forget litter registration fees, and stud fee which varies by rariety of sperm availablity and stud performance as a sire and on the field. Socialization and proper care are priceless. And the list of duties you have to perform is tremendous especially if they are raised in whelping boxes in your home, or have to hire help out. Price then has to be based on expenses, stud fee, availablility of pups by that particular stud or dam & # of live pups you have to sell. Some people think that we should not make a penny, well if you invest everything that you make back into titling your dogs and maintaining their health then you can pretty well guarantee that no one is getting rich at it at most they are getting even.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

Trinitylabs,

Really, there are enough of us on this forum who know exactly what goes into raising a litter both in terms of time and money. If you want a standing round of applause for your efforts, you are not going to get it here.

Best of luck for a healthy litter of pups.


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## trinitylabs (Feb 13, 2006)

Melanie Foster said:


> Trinitylabs,
> 
> Really, there are enough of us on this forum who know exactly what goes into raising a litter both in terms of time and money. If you want a standing round of applause for your efforts, you are not going to get it here.
> 
> Best of luck for a healthy litter of pups.


I realize that plenty of the people that read this forum are well informed, and no I am not wanting a round of applause. However, not everyone knows as much as you obviously think you do, or need to thrash out at us that are trying to explain the reasons for such diverse prices. I just aimed on educating the person that actually asked the question, not you that already know it all. 

Most of us are not trying to gouge for price but rather have a lot of money, time, and love invested. If the stud fee is $5000 such as for 2XNAFC 2XCNAFC FC Ebonstar Lean Mac and he has been the best producer of Labradors for the past 6 years in a row then you are going to have to understand that there is more cost but also a better chance of having one of the best labs out there. I own a dog out of Max X a Webshire's Honest Abe bitch and believe me I paid for the nose for her, was she worth it, in a word YES. If you are wanting a hunting dog, a hunt test dog, a simple family pet then by all means risk buying the $600 dog whose parents don't have all the health clearances or ancestors don't / or the titles, and enjoy what you have. If you are wanting a dog that will be able to compete in Field Trials and possibly a National or two then I would be willing to put up the money for a more expensive dog that is hopefully smarter, easier to train, and comes from a healthy, sound ancestry. I realize that some people can only afford $600 for a pup, and you can probably occasionally run across a diamond but you get what you pay for in more cases than not. Most important is what are your plans for the dog, there are a lot of people out there that never dream of running in a competition and they should just do the research and buy the best that you can afford or are willing to spend. Just look for a quality breeder that is as concerned with where the pups are going as she or he is in the money, check out health guarantees, socialization, etc.


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## Tom H. (May 17, 2005)

I don't know about a lot of folks , but I'd have a hard time giving $5000.00 for a pup out of a 4 yr old SHR titled bitch - regardless who she was bred to. Now a FC /AFC titled bitch would be a different story
________
Tavera


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

trinitylabs said:


> Just look for a quality breeder that is as concerned with where the pups are going as she or he is in the money, check out health guarantees, socialization, etc.


Thanks for the advice! I'll do that the next time I'm looking for a pup. 

Though I think we've done pretty well with the ones we just throw food at in the dark, moldy pantry for 7 weeks and then ship off for $1500 or so. The way you do it sounds like an awful lot of work!

Melanie
Firemark Retrievers


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Thanks for the advice! I'll do that the next time I'm looking for a pup.
> 
> Though I think we've done pretty well with the ones we just throw food at in the dark, moldy pantry for 7 weeks and then ship off for $1500 or so. The way you do it sounds like an awful lot of work!
> 
> ...


 And an awful amount of money. Somebody is gouging you big time.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I think the thing Trinity is missing about puppy prices is they are set by the market, not the cost of the AI or the amount of pups in the litter or whether or not the bitch has to have a $1000 emergency c-section. None of these things make the puppies worth more to anyone but the seller.

A puppy is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, not some amount of money the breeder thinks they need to recoup expenses. There is always a risk to the bitch owner with any breeding and spending anything over $1500-2000 on a stud fee for an unproven dam is one of those risks if the goal of the litter was to make money.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Correct you are Julie R

There are only so many people buying $2000.00 dogs let alone $5000.00 regardless of pedigree. The ability to get someone to pay what you think they are worth and not fair market value is called SALESMANSHIP.....If you can get twice the price for 1/2 the product good for you. I'M JEALOUS.

John who will soon be selling every puppy for $400.00
________
extreme vaporizer


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Nicely bred pups with health clearances and guarantees can be found iin our area for between $500 - $1000. I'm not saying these are pups that will make FC AFC at age 2 or go to a Nat'l/Nat'l Am year after year (but one never knows). They are "nice" pups.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

One of the reasons that there are not more frequent litters of FC x FC or FC-AFC x FC-AFC is that the market for the price of these pups IS limited. Also, the owners normally prefer to run their dogs since they are that good, instead of breeding their dogs.

I'm constantly amazed by the number of people who think that because they, personally, wouldn't want to do it, that no one else should consider it! If your budget or mind set doesn't allow expenditure for hi-dollar puppies, why should you feel compelled to make those who do, or those who have expensive litters your targets? Why can't those who want (or don't want as the case may be) to do something or refrain from doing something just do/not do and let it go at that?

It's no different than the person who decides to buy a stripped-down model Ford or Chevy vs. the person who will only drive a Lincoln or Cadillac. There is no right or wrong here--just personal preference and economics. The breeders of FC-AFC females will continue to price their litters higher than the average price of competitively-bred puppies without a titled mama, and those who believe this gives them the edge in field trial competition will continue to buy them! The market with less demands on the performance results will probably find that less expensive pups from untitled females will better suit their needs. 

I'm sure there are many litters that are moderately priced (as Ann cited in her previous post) that will make wonderful hunting partners, hunt test competitors, and often field trial competitors. It's all a matter of preference and economics.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Vicki,
I don't think anyone on this thread begrudges the price of a pup out of an FC AFC dam; that wasn't the issue here. Anyone who put those titles on a bitch isn't probably making $$ off a litter anyway. The litter in question had an asking price of $5000 per puppy out of an SHR female. I just don't see much 'demand' for that--but if Trinity can get it I'd like to borrow some of her marketing techniques! ;-)


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Julie, I agree. That will be quite a trick to get that asking price with those credentials, regardless of the owner's investment.

I have said before and will say again. What looks good on paper isn't necessarily a recipe for success. Whatever gene combination that those dogs with FC-AFC in front of their name got from the gene pool isn't always the same--even in full siblings. What makes one dog an FC and another a brood bitch isn't always, not even sometimes, "just circumstances". With exception of those litters that produced multiple FC-AFC dogs, most are just a crap shoot. IMHO you just have a better set of odds with the FC-AFC titles on both parents than without.


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## Bill Schuna (Mar 11, 2004)

Buzz wrote:

"Apparently I made a failed attempt at sarcasm."


I thought it was funny. Did I miss something?

Bill


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## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

Have been reading this with interest - someone mentioned that if the pup was going to spend its whole life with a pro it could be a good investment to spend more. Made me wonder how many of your top performing dogs do spend all their time with a pro? Must be a bit like owning a race horse but hopefully not quite so precarious!


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

pmw said:


> Have been reading this with interest - someone mentioned that if the pup was going to spend its whole life with a pro it could be a good investment to spend more. Made me wonder how many of your top performing dogs do spend all their time with a pro? Must be a bit like owning a race horse but hopefully not quite so precarious!


pmw, can I add to your post? 


Race horses need one vital trait - speed

I have always wondered when MARKING is of primary importance, why this trait does not seem to have a more solid genetic basis.

Wondering also, how many AKC hunt test dogs wash due to poor marking ability? 

Slow Sunday morning. Should be out training LOL.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Aussie said:


> why this trait does not seem to have a more solid genetic basis..


because marking ability has many components, some intangible, it is not a single trait genetic characteristic


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I would argue your position that race horses only need speed. I trained races horses for 15 years. They need whole lot more than that.

They need brains and a physical structure that can endure.

Angie


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

EdA said:


> because marking ability has many components, some intangible, it is not a single trait genetic characteristic


Memory? 

I just do not know.........how dogs mark. The good ones sure do!!!!! I need to come back to the US and watch more dogs while in basics. First time I saw a banana line was in the US. One of the strangest things I ever have seen (at that time). he he


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Angie B said:


> I would argue your position that race horses only need speed. I trained races horses for 15 years. They need whole lot more than that.
> 
> They need brains and a physical structure that can endure.
> 
> Angie


Angie, being an ex horse person, who was into horse racing for a period of years (ex boyfriend father was one of the top trainers in Australia at the time)........I did not type ONLY. I used to go to the big race meetings, not to bet, not to eat and drink in the members enclosure, but to search for good prospects. Problem was the fast and smart horses did well, so I had to wait patiently until the geldings retired. They had to be sound as well as the end of their careers.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Pardon me, I miss quoted, "Only vital trait".

I don't think it is,,, but that's my opinion. We didn't wait for geldings to retire, we bought stallions that were sound and performing out of good breedings, not great, but darn good.

Angie


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## southerncomfortretrievers (Nov 14, 2007)

i believe good deals can be found i couldn't pay that much for a pup but thats just me. i waited and shopped around and found a GRHRCH X HRCH for 500. i was and still am very happy


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Buzz said:


> I wouldn't pay more than $500.


HUH! Thats not what I heard!:razz: I am going to go play with your puppy today. I shall keep a close eye on Howard while there!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Aussie said:


> Memory?


Visual acuity, desire, memory, attentiveness, and some sort of inherent spatial sense that we cannot relate to, it is a common misconception that dogs identify the location of a mark the way humans do, i.e. by relating it's location to some inanimate object (a bush, tree, telephone pole), personal observation of dogs in the field for many years convinces me that they possess something else (spatial sense for want of better terminology). That sense seems much more acute in the really great markers............


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## Bill Schuna (Mar 11, 2004)

EdA said:


> Visual acuity, desire, memory, attentiveness, and some sort of inherent spatial sense that we cannot relate to, it is a common misconception that dogs identify the location of a mark the way humans do, i.e. by relating it's location to some inanimate object (a bush, tree, telephone pole), personal observation of dogs in the field for many years convinces me that they possess something else (spatial sense for want of better terminology). That sense seems much more acute in the really great markers............


Ed, you metioned desire. Are prey drive and desire the same thing? If they are different, do you think prey drive functions in tandem with spatial sense? I am just coming at it from a hunter seeking its quarry. The one that is a better marker/hunter gets a full belly so to speak.

Sorry if this is a stupid question. I'm still in phase 1.

Bill


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bill Schuna said:


> Ed, you metioned desire. Are prey drive and desire the same thing?


*Prey drive* is the instinctive behavior of an herbivore to flee or evade capture by a predator

Desire - *wish for something: *to want something very strongly

semantics ;-)

Since "prey drive" is not a term that_ I use I looked it up, technically "prey drive" refers to the behavior of the prey not the predator although I understand from context the intent of those who use it synonymously with "retrieving desire"._

_Retrieving desire is the strong motivation for the dog to find the bird, if that is your definition of "prey drive" then they refer to the same quality in a dog. _


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

EdA said:


> Visual acuity, desire, memory, attentiveness, and some sort of inherent spatial sense that we cannot relate to, it is a common misconception that dogs identify the location of a mark the way humans do, i.e. by relating it's location to some inanimate object (a bush, tree, telephone pole), personal observation of dogs in the field for many years convinces me that they possess something else (spatial sense for want of better terminology). That sense seems much more acute in the really great markers............


Example of ability to mark: 2006 Amateur stake at Watopa Retriever Club. Marking setup with line facing to the west, and the sun was falling behind the bluffs and it was late in the day so lighting wasn't good. Dick Dallasasse (?sp) came to the line with his female, took a look and called for the marks. We had trouble seeing those birds, but the dog didn't. She won the trial. In addition, just as Dick called for the marks, one of the every-few-minutes trains came through with whistle blowing. Those of you who know these grounds can appreciate the train racket that drowns out the gun stations.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Ann,
That's the "missing link" in the genetics that we don't understand. But I know know one thing for sure, Dick's bitch got it from her Momma. Who is currently marking the popcorn coming out of the air popper.

John
________
Dodge B-series van


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## trinitylabs (Feb 13, 2006)

Can anyone out there tell me of one titled female that they know of that has OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, normal patella, normal thyroid, normal cardiac, CNM non-carrier, PRA non-carrier, DNA Profiled, Registered in the AKC, UKC and CKC & DNA Profiled, two different microchips for USA and Canada, and tattooed so that anyone can verify that she is the dam of any offspring? To me these qualities are extremely important, just as important as pedigree and titles. Who wants to spend thousands of dollars only to find out that the pup has a major health problem or is injury prone. 

Lets talk about Hall of Fame dogs from titled fathers and non-titled dams, you have 1. FC Anzac Of Zenith 2. FC Black Panther neither titled parent 3. 1967 NFC-AFC Butte Blue Moon had neither titled parent 4. FC AFC CFC CAFC Candlewood's Mad Mouse 5. 92NFC 90NAFC Candlewood's Super Tanker 6. 3XNFC AFC Candlewoods Tanks A Lot 7. FC Canuck Crest Cutty Sark non-titled dam 8. FC-AFC Carnmoney Brigadier 9. FC AFC Carr-Lab Washington's Weeko 10. FC AFC Code Blue non-titled dam 11. NFC AFC CFC Cork Of Oakwood Lane 12. 70 NFC AFC Creole Sister neither titled parent 13. FC AFC Dairy Hill's Night Cap 14. 61 & 63 NFC-AFC-CNFC Del-Tone Colvin 15. 60 NFC AFC Dolobran's Smoke Tail 16. 81 NAFC FC Dude's Double Or Nothin' '74NDC 17. FC AFC Dust Devil's Shoot The Moon 18. FC CFC DuxBak Scooter 19. FC AFC E-Lynn's Super Strike Lucky 20. 77 NFC AFC Euroclydon 21. FC AFC Glengarvin's Mik 22. FC AFC CFC Grady's Shadee Ladee 23. 69 NAFC FC CFC Guy's Bitterroot Lucky 24. Am-Can Dual CH Happy Playboy 25. 98 NAFC FC Hattie McBunn 26. FC AFC CFC CAFC Hiwood Piper 27. 88CNFC FC AFC Hiwood Piper Pacer's Pic 82NDC 28. 88 NAFC FC Honky Tonk Hero 29. FC AFC Ironwood Tarnation 30. FC AFC Itchin' To Go 31. FC-AFC-CNFC-CAFC Jalva's Sweet Sharmain 84 CNFC 32. FC AFC Jetstone Muscles of Claymar 33. 52 & 53 NFC AFC King Buck 34. FC AFC Lakeridge's Charlemagne 35. 79 & 80 NAFC FC Lawhorn's Cadillac Mack 36. '97 NFC-AFC Lucyana's Fast Willie 92 NDC 37. 54 NFC 57NAFC CFC Major VI 38. 56 NFC AFC Massie's Sassy Boots neither titled parent 39. FC Michelle 40. FC AFC Nakai Anny 41. '58 NFC DUAL & AFC Nilo Possibility 42. FC AFC Nodrog Penny 43. 89 NFC AFC Otus Of Redfern 44. 63 NAFC FC Pepper's Jiggs 45. 88 NFC AFC PP's Lucky's Super Toby 46. 1974 NAFC-FC Ray's Rascal 69-NDC 47. 72 &75 NAFC 3XCNFC River Oaks Corky 67NDC 48. 1977 NAFC-FC River Oaks Rascal 70-NDC 49. FC AFC CFC Rocky Road Of Zenith 50. 72 NFC AFC Royal's Moose's Moe 51. 76 NFC AFC San Joaquin Honcho 52. FC Shamrock Acres Super Value 53. FC AFC Sir Mike Of Orchard View 54. 57 & 59 NFC Spirit Lake Duke 55. 2XNAFC-68NFC Super Chief 56. FC AFC Tarblood Of Absaraka neither titled parent 57. FC AFC Tigathoe's Mainliner Mariah 58. FC AFC CFC Trieven Thunderhead 59. FC AFC Truckee's Nitro Chief neither titled parent 60. 84 NAFC FC Trumarc's Zip Code 61. Volwood's Ruff And Reddy 62. FC AFC Webshire's Honest Abe 63. 82 NFC AFC Westwind Supernova Chief 64. 57CNFC FC AFC Yankee Clipper of Reo Raj 
There are about 20 more that I don't know about but this makes over half of all hall of fame retrievers have only 1 or no titled parents.


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> But I know know one thing for sure, Dick's bitch got it from her Momma. Who is currently marking the popcorn coming out of the air popper.
> 
> John


LOL! Our golden thinks popcorn is the greatest thing ever!


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

For me you can have all the testing in the world knee caps, duel microchips etc.. and the health will always be a roll of the dice due to the nature and inheritance of many problems, so if your paying top dollar for a competitive retriever it better be 2 top retrievers breeding. Just curious have you called the CKC to find out about registraion?


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Yes and how many off that list paid $5000 for them as puppies?


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

trinity, I commend you in trying to get all the health clearances etc.. That is great. I am sure there are fc/afc titled females that have all that. I don't care to take the time to find out and list who they are. One thing to consider though is that not all of those things you listed are a requirement for people to buy a certain pup. For example, I have a cnm carrier pup and would buy another from the right breeding in a heart beat.

Now from your second part of your post, what I think you are saying is that a dog doesn't have to have both parents be fc/afc's to be successful. If that is what you are saying, you are absolutely correct, that is evident on the derby list and purina list every year. It is not a requirement to be out of a fc/afc dam to become a FC. I am pretty sure there have been more titled dogs born to non titled bitches than titled bitches. Why?, cause there are more of them. However with as competetive as these games are, people are wanting more and more to start with the best they can. The track record of both parents weighs into that. 

One other thing, out of all those dogs you listed, how much do you think the most expensive one out of all those cost as a puppy? I have no idea.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Trinity,; best of luck with the marketing of your $5000 pups. An old marketing adage is that something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

I'm not in the market for a puppy right now, however I might be interested in the list of people who purchase your $5000 puppies.

P.T. Barnum regards


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

trinitylabs said:


> Can anyone out there tell me of one titled female that they know of that has OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, normal patella, normal thyroid, normal cardiac, CNM non-carrier, PRA non-carrier, DNA Profiled, Registered in the AKC, UKC and CKC & DNA Profiled, two different microchips for USA and Canada, and tattooed so that anyone can verify that she is the dam of any offspring? To me these qualities are extremely important, just as important as pedigree and titles. Who wants to spend thousands of dollars only to find out that the pup has a major health problem or is injury prone.


As one who breeds 1-2 litters per year and hopes to break even, I know that I cannot break even and do everything I believe is important from a health screening, sire selection, and puppy care perspective unless I realize close to $800-1000/pup assuming a significant champion as the sire. If I am buying from a breeder that makes a living from selling pups, I fully expect to pay more to provide a reasonable profit for a quality breeding. I applaud your obvious commitment to trying to do the job right. However, it seems to me that you are spending a lot of effort to try to convince RTF'ers that a Pachanga Magnum Force breeding to a junior hunt test female is worth $5000 for a black, chocolate factored male pup. I can't think of any argument that would be successful. More importantly, there's no need for convincing people on this board since all that really matters is whether you can find two people willing to pay that much for Magnum pups. If you can, I think that's great. I wish you the best in finding great homes for the pups.


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

I can't believe we are on page 9...


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Stick the fork in it....IT"S DONE
________
Honda Pilot (ATV) specifications


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## trinitylabs (Feb 13, 2006)

You are right, I am done. I have been trying to justify myself to people that I don't have to justify myself to. It is not about the money, if someone came along and offered me a fair price I would consider who they are and what they were wanting the dog for. I have given away dogs because I thought that they would be in a place where they were giving back to their owner as much as the owner was giving them. I don't try to make a living on my pups, I just try to produce the best that I possibly can and place them in the best homes that I can. I have studied genetics for many many years and labrador retriever sires and dams, pedigrees, clearances, who carries what fault for years but my pups are what tells the tale, all the words in the world wouldn't convince half of you that the sun was shining on a clear day. I hope that you all have a very Merry Christmas and I wish you all the best in the new year. Here are some pictures of my beautiful daughter who is our trainer at 17 years old, and a couple of the dogs that she titled, hope that you enjoy.


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Great pictures


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

Thanks for the pics, Trinity.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Great pics!!


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Some one please help me with this for I am not to good with dealing with inflation.

Back in 1976 we bought puppies from 2 different litters. Both parents were FC-AFC. I can remember one of the litters pedigree(FC-AFC Tidewater Mallard x FC-AFC Truckees Watergator Sam) but not the 2nd. We only kept one the other was a wash out.

Price on the pup we kept $300.00 Price on the pup we washed out $350.00

Here is where I need help. From an inflationary standpoint what would those pups price at in 2007?


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

What cost $*350* in 1976 would cost $*1266.90* in 2006.
According to the inflation calculator.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Thanks Sherry.

Based on that infomation wouldn't you say that puppy prices are a tad bit inflated today?


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Wade, probably so. Or you may have just got a good deal. Were all fc to fc breedings around that price then?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

tshuntin said:


> Were all fc to fc breedings around that price then?


Heck no, and many FC bitches were not bred, in '77 I paid $1000 for a puppy (FC-AFC Trumarc's Raider X Paha Sapa Greta, an untitled bitch)...:shock:........


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Looks like Wade just got a good deal/inexpensive price back then.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Actually, YES. There were a lot more back then than there are now I can certainly tell you that!!!


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

EdA said:


> Heck no, and many FC bitches were not bred, in '77 I paid $1000 for a puppy (FC-AFC Trumarc's Raider X Paha Sapa Greta, an untitled bitch)...:shock:........


Could it be that you paid $1,000 because Raider had just sired a National Champion by the name of Honcho?

Obviously, $1,000 was NOT the norm back then.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Is it that like many things that pups are not selling for what they should. If you take the costs to get the AFC or FC dog if lucky enough I see no reason a pup should not be 5k. As cute as the little buggers are, walking away with a few thousand after expenses and vet bills for all the work is about the same money as flippin burgers.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

The best way to get a "cheap" pup out of a FC X FC breeding is to choose a bitch that hasn't titled yet but will! I don't remember what I paid, maybe $750?, for a pup out of FC AFC Way-Da-Go Soulman X Harley's Christmas Angel. The spring after the litter was born Angel won two opens. I ended up washing out my pup and he became a drug detection dog in London KY. did I know Angel was going to finish? No!

How many people spend as much time researching the bitch as the sire?

Tom


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wade said:


> Could it be that you paid $1,000 because Raider had just sired a National Champion by the name of Honcho?
> 
> Obviously, $1,000 was NOT the norm back then.


I have no idea what the "norm" was, I was on my 4th or 5th dog and I had been involved in field trials long enough to determine that the road to success began with a good dog so I bought the best puppy I could find (and $1000 was no small investment for a 31 year old veterinarian in a new practice making less than $2000/month), unfortunately she was not the one

BTW the Dam, Paha Sapa Greta, had 6 titled siblings which may have influenced the price

FC-AFC AIR EXPRESS M

FC-AFC ORION'S LADY DART F

FC-AFC SASSY SIOUX OF TUKWILA F

'75 NFC '76 NAFC '76,'77 CNFC WANAPUM DART'S DANDY 76-77 CNFC F

'78 CNFC-FC WANAPUM DART'S GARBO F

FC WANAPUM SHEBA F


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Geez Ed, I would have to say that I agree 100%, $1,000 for a pup back then was a boat load. 

Air Express certainly was a beauty, wasn't he? No need to comment on Dandy, her record speaks for itself. What a run she had there for a few years.

Either way you look at it buying a puppy is always a crap shoot and I am not sure it matters a whole lot if you pay $1,000 or 5,000.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wade said:


> Either way you look at it buying a puppy is always a crap shoot and I am not sure it matters a whole lot if you pay $1,000 or 5,000.


generally true, however that somewhat depends on the breeding, I would argue (and I bet Ted would agree) that from the right bitch 4K to 5K improves the odds.......

Loving My 18 Month Old Kweezy Puppy And Getting Another One Regards


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

EdA said:


> Loving My 18 Month Old Kweezy Puppy And Getting Another One Regards


I am green with envy.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Buzz said:


> I am green with envy.


So are the rest of us.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Either way you look at it buying a puppy is always a crap shoot and I am not sure it matters a whole lot if you pay $1,000 or 5,000.


Wade 

Not all crapshoots were born equal.

When I buy a puppy, I look to maximize my odds
That means I
1) Consider the pedigree carefully
2) Have seen the dog run - in person - as opposed to relying upon hearsay
3) Know something about the dog's personality in training
4) Know something about previous breedings - if possible

It is nice to talk about picking out an up and comer in the derby, and getting a puppy from that bitch before she titles but for the most part that is just talk.

It is a big jump from Derby dog to QAA dog 
And a bigger jump from QAA to AA dog

A number of dogs do not make the jump

I have gotten to the point where I see enough dogs, and know enough dog owners, that I am pretty much looking at FC/AFC to FC/AFC breeding. I happen to think my odds are better there. So, I spend the money required to purchase such puppies. Sometimes, it works out. Sometimes, it doesn't.

I have gotten two marvelous puppies out of Kweezy. The first puppy I got because I had seen Kweezy compete and train - and I have NEVER seen a dog that could mark like her. PERIOD.

That puppy was Mootsie, who is now a FC/AFC
My success with Mootsie, led me to purchase another puppy from Kweezy - Mozzie

At 3.5 years of age, Mozzie qualified for the 2008 National Am

Mootsie and Mozzie led me to seek a puppy from Kweezy's latest breeding, this time to Brady Oman's Willie - a fabulous dog that I have seen in both competition and in training

Judy is not going to sell that pup for $1000
Nor would you if you owned Kweezy

When the best performing bitches in the country are bred, their owners expect and demand top dollar ... and they get it


My puppy will not be cheap, but I hope ... in the end, it will be as nice as Mootsie and Mozzie


That's the long way of saying that I disagree with your premise about the price of puppies

I happen to think - more often than not - you get what you pay for

Ted


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

While I agree to a certain extent of what you say Ted I would ask what percentage of her 2 or 3 litters have titled? 
My guess would be that the majority of her puppies are not titled. 

I will go one step further, take ALL of the greatest bitches in history and the majority of their puppies are untitled.

It comes down to pure numbers and in the end it is still a crap shoot. 


To get back to my original post/reply on this topic, from an inflationary standpoint, titled to titled dogs are over priced in todays market. BUT and I understand this BUT, one must pay what the going market price is.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Wade said:


> While I agree to a certain extent of what you say Ted I would ask what percentage of her 2 or 3 litters have titled?
> My guess would be that the majority of her puppies are not titled.
> 
> I will go one step further, take ALL of the greatest bitches in history and the majority of their puppies are untitled.
> ...



For sure. I spent a few years working on a purebred sheep ranch, showing and selling them all over the west coast. It wasn't at all out of the ordinary to see Rams sell for $30 - $40kl. 

Ridiculous in my mind but value is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> It comes down to pure numbers and in the end it is still a crap shoot.


I would say it is all relative.

If you truly believed it was just a crap shoot, you could simply go to Pets Mart and buy any AKC Labrador and be confident that your odds of obtaining a FC were as good as any body in the planet.

The fact that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else here would accept that proposition tells me that none of us believes that it is just a crap shoot.

So, the majority of a given bitches litters are untitled - what if 10, 20, 30% of her litter is titled .... do you like those odds?

For example, if I could have gotten in on one of those Abe x Lottie litters, I would have in a heartbeat

Or, one of those Lean Mac x Ms. Costalot litters

What about Super Powder x Nakai Annie?
Count me in on any of them

There are no absolutes here

Everyone gets to make their own choices

We pays our money and we takes our chances


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> While I agree to a certain extent of what you say Ted I would ask what percentage of her 2 or 3 litters have titled?
> My guess would be that the majority of her puppies are not titled.


Wade

The other thing I will say about the Kweezy puppies is that
- I have competed against Kweezy
- I have trained with Kweezy

In addition, Cherylon has trained 

- My Mootsie (Code Blue)
- My Mozzie (Code Blue)
- Mark Rosenblum's Morey (Code Blue)
- Ed Aycock's Chef (Pow)
- Doug Grimes' Morgan (Pow)

I have seen each of these dogs at six months and watched them progress through the yard


I have also competed against and spoken to the owners/pros of

T-Street Tess O: Skibber, Pro: Dewey
Winnie, O: Kammerer, Pro: Farmer
Cord: O: Morgan, Pro: Knutson


So I think I have a feel for what Kweezy produces


All of which leads me to believe if it is a crapshoot it is an educated one


Ted


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Well I am wondering, if a person comes up with the puppy price based off the stud fee, then at what point, what titles & FC's in the pedigree etc, must the dam possess to increase the price? 

Also, what guarantees are necessary? If for instance you guarantee the hips, and then the puppy gets injured somehow, and the puppy can't OFA, then how does the guarantee work?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I did not jump into this topic to go back & forth about whether or not titled to titled dogs give you a better chance at success. I jumped in to debate the merits of the price of those puppies. Based on inflation they ARE overpriced from years passed but as you stated Ted, "we pays our money and takes our chances".


Ted, here is another way to look at this from a numbers point of view and bettering your odds.
As quickly as we wash dogs out these days I would go this route to improve those odds.

Rather than pay 5K for one puppy take that money and buy 4 $1,200 puppies. Take a proven stud, educate yourself on what he crosses with the best and go from there.
Now I believe your odds have been improved a bit more with 4 chances rather than one. 

HAPPY HOLIDAYS to EVERYONE!!!!!!!


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

"Rather than pay 5K for one puppy take that money and buy 4 $1,200 puppies. Take a proven stud, educate yourself on what he crosses with the best and go from there.
Now I believe your odds have been improved a bit more with 4 chances rather than one. "

That economic model only works if food, vet care, your time, and training are all free or in the case of your time in unlimited supply. Good luck with that. 

Brian


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

brian breuer said:


> "Rather than pay 5K for one puppy take that money and buy 4 $1,200 puppies. Take a proven stud, educate yourself on what he crosses with the best and go from there.
> Now I believe your odds have been improved a bit more with 4 chances rather than one. "
> 
> That economic model only works if food, vet care, your time, and training are all free or in the case of your time in unlimited supply. Good luck with that.
> ...


Everyone has their own experiences to draw upon. I tend to agree with Brian.

I have done both the four and the one. I have been more successful with the one.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

brian breuer said:


> "Rather than pay 5K for one puppy take that money and buy 4 $1,200 puppies. Take a proven stud, educate yourself on what he crosses with the best and go from there.
> Now I believe your odds have been improved a bit more with 4 chances rather than one. "
> 
> That economic model only works if food, vet care, your time, and training are all free or in the case of your time in unlimited supply. Good luck with that.
> ...


Those who can afford to drop 5K on a puppy, I would venture to guess, have everything you mentioned and quite possibly more.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I have one of those Kweezy pups that came out of the litter sired by Pow. The only thing I can add is, if I had gotten a chance at another one from the litter sired by Willie, I would have found a way to gather strength to write the check... Not only is my pup all about work and retrieving, she's extremely responsive and just plain a cool dog.

If you are going to use a pro, using the 4 $1200 dog approach, I would venture a guess that by the time you decide which dogs to keep and which will wash - you'll likely be in it for an excess of $30k at least.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Everyone has their own experiences to draw upon. I tend to agree with Brian.
> 
> I have done both the four and the one. I have been more successful with the one.


Ted, I guess we will agree to disagree on this one.

If you do your home work on crosses your success will be as good.


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## labinitup (Jan 4, 2005)

Wade said:


> Ted, I guess we will agree to disagree on this one.
> 
> If you do your home work on crosses your success will be as good.


Wade,

Is Ted some kind of "thorn in your side"???

Have you seen Ted's dogs run? Apparently Not!

William W


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

No,No No , not at all. I have a great deal of respect for Ted. I would trade places with Ted in a heartbeat. Look at the dogs he has and success he has had with them.

At this time we just don't quite see eye to eye on this.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS to ALL!!!!


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

labinitup said:


> Wade,
> 
> Is Ted some kind of "thorn in your side"???
> 
> ...


I get to see Ted's dogs most of the summer when they are with Dave and get the chance to compete against them.
Believe it or not from May until mid-September we see and compete against THEE best dogs in the country on an every weekend basis!!!!!


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

DEDEYE said:


> Well I am wondering, if a person comes up with the puppy price based off the stud fee, then at what point, what titles & FC's in the pedigree etc, must the dam possess to increase the price?
> 
> Also, what guarantees are necessary? If for instance you guarantee the hips, and then the puppy gets injured somehow, and the puppy can't OFA, then how does the guarantee work?


Well??????????


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Ted, I guess we will agree to disagree on this one.
> 
> If you do your home work on crosses your success will be as good.


We disagree

I think I have done my homework

And my success rate is better FC to FC

Ted


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think anyone who has the chance to get a pup from a very talented, pre-potent, titled bitch, and has the means to train and compete so they get the best chance, could care less about the asking price, they are just happy they can get in on the breeding. 

(You think $5K is high, don't even think about what they get for cutting horses foals-another addictive game)


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wade said:


> Ted I would ask what percentage of her 2 or 3 litters have titled?
> My guess would be that the majority of her puppies are not titled.
> .


that's not really relavent since litter #1 are 5, litter #2 are 3, and litter #3 are 18 months, check back in 3 or 4 years, you may be surprised


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> Wade
> 
> The other thing I will say about the Kweezy puppies is that
> - I have competed against Kweezy
> ...


 and AFC premires iron man ozzie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Haven't seen Ozzie yet

But will in Stowe

Ted


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

Wade,
How is Sally doing? I know last time I talked to you she had 3 AFC points. We sure are pulling for you and Sally to get that AFC especially since she is a daughter of K.D.

Don't you think your thoughts about FC x FC or FC x AFC puppy prices might change when Sally becomes an AFC?

Also, what price do you think would be fair for a
2x NAFC 2x CNAFC bred to a FC AFC Bitch?

Marty


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

KD, mamma of my Yanka Tanka. Expensive with importing costs etc. Cannot imagine my life without him. Fire breathing devil dog, such an excellent training attitude to boot.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Rather than pay 5K for one puppy take that money and buy 4 $1,200 puppies. Take a proven stud, educate yourself on what he crosses with the best and go from there.
> Now I believe your odds have been improved a bit more with 4 chances rather than one.


I've done this. It doesn't work. These are not little economic units, they're living breathing puppies and young dogs. There's no way you can raise and train a puppy without getting emotionally attached. Washing one out hurts, ALWAYS!

Ted, Brian, and Buzz and others have brought up some good points.

If you want the best get pups from the best.


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

Aussie said:


> KD, mamma of my Yanka Tanka. Expensive with importing costs etc. Cannot imagine my life without him. Fire breathing devil dog, such an excellent training attitude to boot.


Julie,
Yes it is the same K.D. She is quite a mamma. I can't wait to see the Cosmo Pups she is going to give us !

Marty


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## trinitylabs (Feb 13, 2006)

For everyone's information, the CFC CAFC Pachanga Magnum Force pups that I kept from the litter born on 10/27/2007 have been registered by both the AKC and CKC. The CKC #'s are 1099444 and 1099445, their AKC #'s are SR46835801 and SR46535802. There were many people stating that the pups would not be registerable so I wanted to post this so that the correct information is available.


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