# Starting blind retrieve



## Dmitry (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm trying to teach my 2 years old to blind retrieve. He do this great, but only if he knows that dummy is there . And I have a hard time to send him "blindly". What trik is there? How to explain him that he has to go when I sent him?

Any help is appreciated!


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## SHANNON (May 30, 2008)

Force fetch, collar condition, force to a pile, mini t, single t, double t, water work through 9 bumber drill is the start of the tricks to run blinds. the big SECRET is pay a pro or buy evan grahams or mike lardys videos and follow closely. Hard work is coming your way. Good luck and most of all be careful. Dont ruin a dog by lack of knowledge. Seek out a training group or a pro to mentor.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Sent you a PM.


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## Dmitry (Oct 6, 2008)

SHANNON said:


> Force fetch, collar condition, force to a pile, mini t, single t, double t, water work through 9 bumber drill is the start of the tricks to run blinds. the big SECRET is pay a pro...


I, probably, have to explain my goal. I'm not training for the title. I'm training for the hunting. I want my dog to go in the direction I give to him and bring me the bird (or dummy). He is good upland hunter by now and I want to try waterfowl.

Another point - I want to train my dog myself. I'm not only his boss and his master, I'm his friend as well. I do use e-collar, but only in an emergency situation. And I don't want to overtrain him, just basic things.

I understend that blind retrieving is not a trivial task, but I want it. So far Baikal easy retrieving dummies when he knows where they are. Also, if he can see them. As next step I'll try to put small flag next to pile. What else?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Dmitry, a trained dog is a trained dog. Regardless of your end goal, the process for establishing the skills the dog needs to do what your asking is the same. What kind of training has the dog had so far? Has the dog been through a fetch program? Will he reliably fetch off the ground at heel? Have you tought him casting in a small yard setting? You mention you do use a collar, I would say using the collar is fine, but consistancy is the key. We don't want the collar to be an earth shattering event for the dog, just a light or strong enough correction to change his behavior. (This is entirely up to the dogs personality) A little background might help guide us in providing suggestions.

/Paul


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Dmitry said:


> I, probably, have to explain my goal. I'm not training for the title. I'm training for the hunting.


Doesn't matter. The training is the same until you get to the highest finished level.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Dmitry,

I am having the same problem. I just started this after a review of FF which I had initially done years ago. Things were looking good until I started adding long distances such as the mini t. But apparently the review was not enough to solve the same problem you are having. So I am reviewing FF again with more pressure and reviewing force to pile with more reps and pressure. She has to go no matter what. And you have to have a means of correcting/resolving the situation we are having.


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## dalecindy (Feb 26, 2008)

Can't agree more. I hunt my lab and hunt test her. I would do the same training that I have done if only hunting my lab. Step one always leads to step two and until you get step one down, you better not go on to step 2 or you will eventually have a confused dog and frustrated handler. 
There may be a few things that you would not go to the depth on if only a hunting partner and not testing, but that is way later in training, not at the place you are with your dog.

I can't imagine trying to do the things I have taught her to do without help from people, and training programs. I trained my lab myself. The first one I have trained. She is one pass away from her Master Title now and got her Finished title at the age of 2. Had I not had help, I would have never gotten her past the Senior/Seasoned levels and would not have been as happy in the duck blind either. Just my thoughts having been there.


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## Eddie Sullivan (Jul 10, 2005)

There is no shortcuts. As others have pointed out, basics are the same for hunting or competing. The proper steps must be taken for your dog to understand and do the work.
________
BMW K1200R


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## Dmitry (Oct 6, 2008)

Thank you for the help! I'm very new dog owner and all my thoughts could be sort of naive... Sorry for that, but want to share anyway. 

I understand statements about "no shortcuts" and "the highest finished level". However, I think that there are different goals. For me dog has to be a happy dog. I can't handle an horror in his eyes. In a couple of cases when I had to punish him (like for running for fox), I was so sorry myself...


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## Skybuster (May 5, 2008)

Dmitry, It sounds like your affection for your dog is making you resist VERY good advice from folks who just want to help. Maybe it'll help to know most people on this site love their dogs the same as you do. NOTHING could be more unfair to your dog than to give random lessons without a solid, organized basics program to prepare him for the tasks you will ask him to perform. Hunting~tests, doesn't matter. Do yourself and Fido a favor and join a club, Get a video. He won't run a line because he hasn't been prepared for it. By the way, I love my dog with all my heart and can tell you her favorite sight is me grabbing an e-collar out of my training bag. Most all of us have "happy dogs". Come to a hunt test and see for yourself!
JMHO~~Mike


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

If your dog is running towards a busy road and has not been taught solidly to sit to whistle, you might be a lot sorrier and upset then if you had used the e collar to train him properly to obey basic commands. Have you been through collar conditioning with him yet? Do you know what collar conditoning is? I don't mean to be rude or pushy, but CC is a very basic thing to teach your dog if you have a e collar, and the settings can be quite mild when compared to trying to burn a dog to stop him if he is chasing a fox. You might order Lardy's vidio on CC, it is well worth while. Bud


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## Dog Pro (Apr 9, 2008)

All very sound advice, i train gundogs for a living,most will never see a hunt test or trial,but the basics and foundation are the same,all of my dogs are out of fc/afc breedings and i train them as if they were going to be the next NFC,much like building a house.....can't put the roof on before the foundation is set and the walls are up.educate yourself the best you can,then proceed to apply what youv'e learned to your dog.Good luck


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## Dmitry (Oct 6, 2008)

ThreeDogNight said:


> ...It sounds like your affection for your dog is making you resist VERY good advice from folks who just want to help...


I'm very-very sorry if I made this impression... My appology to everybody! I value you help a lot and am listening to each advice! But, I think, men were created with this "free will" - ability to analyse others experience and not apply it blantly .

I accept the critic about dog running for the fox. But how many dogs will sit calm when big male fox come from the coner of neighbor house with squrel in his mounth? Yes, in this case I had to use zap to stop Baikal. 

I use e-collar in three mode: 1. Vibrate - meaning drop everything, come and sit in front of me immediately. 2. Light zap - correction of heel mistakes, sometimes force of not fast enough sit command, especially on distance. 3. Strong zap - emergency.

Speaking about others help - we, Baikal and I, are using any help we can find. Wolters books, few DVDs from vell respected trainers, Gun Dog and Hunting Retriever magazines, membership in local sportsman's and HRC clubs. And, of course, Internet. 

I think, despite my limited experience, we achieved great success in the upland hunting. Our hunt may not looks classy, we don't do clear quartering, but Baikal is hunting in circles, squares, triangles in front of me in the shoot distance - and I'm happy. He reliably retrieving birds to hand, but in front, not not a classical side.

When I started blind retrieving preparation, I was (and still is) very confused about FF. Why? How it is related? Baikal is fetching and dropping and holding good enough, but how it helps with blind?

And, again, appology if I made impression of the ignorant person. I'm not  !


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## Dog Pro (Apr 9, 2008)

Dmitry,

FF is not just about fetching/holding/delivery of bumpers or birds,it is also if done correctly and throughly the foundation in which the dog learns he has to and it along with all of you proper e-collar conditioning gives you the tools to be able to advance you dog well into blind retrieves and more advanced concepts,is FF absolutley a mst for these things? no,but you will look long and hard to find a dedicated amatuer or a pro who skips this pase of training,it has been proven too many times to list to not be one of the absolute cornerstones of a well trained/balanced retriever.Keep researching and looking for the right answers and you will have everything you want in your dog.Good luck

Dave


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

Dmitry said:


> And, again, appology if I made impression of the ignorant person. I'm not  !


Sorry Dmitry, You may not be a ignorant person concerning most things, but your post does show a great deal of ignorance concerning retriever training. You mention a lot of resources you are using in your training. You need to find one specific program and follow it precisely. Either the Lardy program or Smart Works by Evan Graham would be great. You have not responded to questions about CC. This is telling me you have no idea what CC is, and you explanation of how you use your e-collar reinforces this. Doing it right is not any more difficult then doing it wrong and risk screwing up your dog. Both CC and FF require only moderate or mild use of stimulation with the e-collar, they do not fall under the defination of "crual and unusual punishment or torture". Force fetch is the foundation for training a hunting dog, and collar conditioning is the foundation for reinforcing obediance training. Evan Graham has a excellent vidio on FF, you should view it, it will answer a lot of questions. Like your post says, you can pick and choose what you want to teach and how, but you will be doing your dog a great disservice if you only half way train him. Bud


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## Dmitry (Oct 6, 2008)

akblackdawg said:


> ...your post does show a great deal of ignorance concerning retriever training... You need to find one specific program and follow it precisely...you have no idea what CC is...


Dear Bud,
Now I'm surprised. And sort of dissapointed. I respected your previous advices a lot, but "follow one program"? Are you serious? Why? Don't you think that whole idea of RESEARCH is to compare DIFFERENT programs and find what is right for you? Would you just follow Walters methods and never use e-collar? Or, would yiu use only e-collar and not choke one? Or would you combine the best of all? If you will follow just one program, you'll have a dog by Lardy or dog by Graham. It is fine for some people, but I want to have my dog doing what I want (please refer to my original post). 

I'm a software developer, and if I use only Agile or XP or Waterfall, I'll be out of the market very quick. You have to find what is best for given situation, often combining parts of different systems and technologies.

Also, I'm not sure why you are so devoted to the CC? I never answer you because it is so trivial and obvious. Am I wrong? And Baikal and I passed this long time ago. 

I want to say thank you to people who sent me PMs. What a great ideas I got from you guys!!! A lot of real and practical tricks! We did some work today and Baikal is exited!


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

I think it is apparent that you don't really understand what we are trying to tell you. Most training programs are based upon the training developments of the late Rex Carr. Beginners, especially, need to stick with a single program because they don't know enough to modify the program. Proper training follows a formula for the most part to ensure that the dog is taught in a specific order. Otherwise, you'll miss something and the dog's training (and the dog) will suffer.

By the way, regarding your earlier comment about wanting the dog to be happy. I guess you're suggesting that training involves some harsh practices. Few train that way anymore.


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## Dog Pro (Apr 9, 2008)

Clearly not going to get through to this one,knows enough already,my guess he just wants to see if anyone on here actually knows how to train dogs.Carry on good sir.


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## bwricks2000 (May 15, 2018)

Like everyone has said, the actual blind retrieve is something that comes after a lot of foundation work has been done. But I think there are things you can do along the way that will make the final training steps much easier. Here is a great post that discusses some of the things you can do along the way. 

https://easyretrievertraining.com/foundation-blind-retrieves/

I also like the idea of having a book with me when I am out in the field. I like Tom Dokken's book. it is usually only about $15 or $20. This one takes you from puppy to the introductory stage of casting. Amazon almost always has the best price. Here is a link to it. https://amzn.to/2GWmKKY


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Dimitry, these posts are entertaining but some are amazingly more grammatically correct than others, are you sure you’re not “pulling the leg”?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Baikal has probably passed over the rainbow bridge by now.


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## Brian Cagle (Dec 31, 2015)

bwricks2000 said:


> Like everyone has said, the actual blind retrieve is something that comes after a lot of foundation work has been done. But I think there are things you can do along the way that will make the final training steps much easier. Here is a great post that discusses some of the things you can do along the way.
> 
> https://easyretrievertraining.com/foundation-blind-retrieves/
> 
> ...



You do realize you have responded to a near 10 year old post?

I doubt Baikal is still living much less trying to figure out how to run a cold blind.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

🤪😂😂


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