# German Shorthaired pointer as a retriever



## JMejeur (Feb 18, 2013)

i have 2 GSP's, about 6 months old. and i have heard great things about them being retrievers, and i am seriously considering sending them to a trainer for retrieving. i was wondering what yalls opinion was on this.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

What ttraining have you done with the dog? What kind of rettrieving do you need?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I wouldn't send them to a retriever trainer unless that person has a lot of pointing dog experience. They will not do well with the force and typical retriever program as a general rule. I'm sure some guy will say they do but, there is a reason only maybe one or two GSP's came out of the woodwork and passed a couple hunt tests beyond JH last year. If someone is successful at pointer and retriever hunt tests I might consider it. GSP's and pointing dogs in general as not forgiving and will shut down with pressure. ("most" professional retriever trainers use pressure and force fetch based systems for training because its faster and more effective for retrievers)


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## Dos Patos (Oct 15, 2012)

I have a couple of friends who do lots of dove and duck hunting early season.Their dogs are awesome in the heat and are machines.I always wanted one.Both are amateur trained ff,cc and run simple blinds.Later in the season the labs come out because of the cold.


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## JMejeur (Feb 18, 2013)

just retrieving ducks, not looking to do any competitions or hunt test, im in louisiana, so im not to worried about the cold. but when it does get chilly, ill get them a vest. i havent gotten to do to much training with them, besides getting their prey drive up, ive worked with them on quail, i can get them to hold, while i let a quail go run around and will not go get it until i say okay. The guy im sending them t, is supposed to be great with pointers, and quite a few people i have talked to have recommended for me to send my pointers to him.


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## DropinBack (Sep 24, 2012)

They can be force fetched and the few i have seen took the pressure fine... they are actually pretty high strung with the pressure and seem to not give in as easy... Just from what i have seen...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Few of the greatest GSP Field Trial Champions have ever really been FF'd. Why you will ask? Because they only must make ONE single retrieve in their career. They don't shoot birds over Field Trial Pointers in AKC Competition. Just flush and a .22 blank shot.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I had one in training last summer that is primarily an upland dog, but he did single marks surprisingly well. Went hard, ran straight and marked well. He came to me because his owner was having trouble getting him to pick up birds. I FF'd him and he did great. Like any dog, I adjusted my process to his temperament. He's picked up a ton of doves, a few ducks and a bunch of pheasant and quail since then. Nice dog. That said, I haven't tried to put him through the whole program to get him running blinds, so I can't speak to that. I have a friend back in Florida who runs shorthairs in HRC hunt tests and does well. I like his dogs a lot.
I have another GSP that just got here for evaluation. We'll see how she works out.
Like I told her owner, I have done retrieving work on pointing breeds, but I am NOT a pointing dog trainer. I'm a retriever trainer. 
The point to all this is there are some that will make nice retrievers and some that probably will not. If I were planning on running upper level retriever hunt tests, I would start with a different breed. If I were looking for a pointing dog that could pick up ducks out of the decoys in milder weather, I might go with a GSP.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

Most GSPs make great, enthusiastic retrievers.
I don't think the breed makes or breaks any training,there are high strung lab/golden,etc washouts,too.
If you have a pedigree that is loaded with FT lines you may have your work cut out for you in the duck blind with calmness. Your biggest issue may not be retrieving, it may be swimming.
I train my shorthairs just like a retriever with all the vdog stuff added in and they do just fine.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

forgot to add, most vdog owners don't do retriever tests b/c its a fairly new concept and hasn't caught on yet.With the fun vdog tests available many probably don't want to participate in retriever tests. Check into your local NAVHDA chapter.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Paul, in AKC they do if there is a bird field and not just a flush on the back course. It will be listed in the premium. I ran and owned GSP trial dogs before labs. It was/is a requirement to retrieve to hand. I FFd ALL my GSP.
Sheesh, what knappy dog owners know.



Jeff


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

labsforme said:


> Paul, in AKC they do if there is a bird field and not just a flush on the back course. It will be listed in the premium. I ran and owned GSP trial dogs before labs. It was/is a requirement to retrieve to hand. I FFd ALL my GSP.
> Sheesh, what knappy dog owners know.
> 
> 
> ...


You confused with a AKC Pointer Hunt Test? Because when I was planting birds on horseback there was not a bird shot until one dog had a call back and got to do a 20 yard retrieve at the end of the day outside of the 30 minute brace. Early in the day, one dog is on top right of this frame on point with one backing. No birds were shot until the very end of the day.


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## Jared Hauseman (Jun 1, 2012)

I am training right now for the NAVHDA Invitational with my GSP. I am training over 200 yd blind retrieves. My boy does not do super long marks, but that is my fault because I have not exposed him to anything longer than say 75-80 yds. I do not have a regular training buddy that can go out and throw marks for me at 100-150 yds or longer. I also FF'ed my boy about a year and a half ago, there were no issues in doing so. I know a lot of people who have taught me how to prepare for this invitational, so I'm sure they were doing the same thing with the GSP's they trained for this event. I would do like the one person mentioned, check out local NAVHDA and they can help.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Why not just get a real retriever like an American Water Spaniel?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I wouldn't send them to a retriever trainer unless that person has a lot of pointing dog experience. They will not do well with the force and typical retriever program as a general rule. I'm sure some guy will say they do but, there is a reason only maybe one or two GSP's came out of the woodwork and passed a couple hunt tests beyond JH last year. If someone is successful at pointer and retriever hunt tests I might consider it. GSP's and pointing dogs in general as not forgiving and will shut down with pressure. ("*most" professional retriever trainers use pressure and force fetch based systems for training because its faster and more effective for retrievers*)


Hmmmm?..Now there is Interesting!? For me . I gotta ask 'why'? Programmes are now Breed Specific? huh?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

polmaise said:


> Hmmmm?..Now there is Interesting!? For me . I gotta ask 'why'? Programmes are now Breed Specific? huh?


Less emphasis on a pointer for man-made abilities in my opinion. While a dog might look like a natural running a blind it never, ever would have done it all by itself. Would it chase a lowflying, injured duck? Absolutely. I guess that assumption is that you'd be working the dog for the purpose it was intended. Can a lab be trained as a Schutzhund dog? I'm certain it could be and I'm sure guys could train a German Shepard to be a retriever. The programs are developed by people who are experts with the breed they train. I think a person would have to use different techniques and tailor the programs to fit the dog. This doesn't widely apply to Lab folks. Lets face it, Labs are the most popular and most successful dogs because they're generic. Pull it further apart by retriever breeds. There are trainers successful with labs who couldn't train a Chesapeake to fetch a cheese burger from a paper bag. They've made many a lab but, never a Chessie. Said trainers even tried with many. Their training program didn't fit the breed. 

Take that program and apply it to a breed that should need little training to do what it was BRED to do, point upland birds and start teaching many concepts which are contrary to the genetics and my opinion is that you end up with a dog who can do many tasks but, does few well.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Hmmmm?..gotta ask 'why'? Programmes are now Breed Specific? huh?


One reason is, as I told your abrasive S'African matey, only pointing dog handlers sing to their dogs in trials. So they have to get with the Gene Autry program, or programme, on that score.:wink:

But happy's right, most pointing dog trials do not require a retrieve, American Field field trials in particular. The birds are blank-gunned, not killed, thus no retrieving opportunities. As such, many, I would say hazard a high majority of trial pointers and setters are never trained to retrieve.

You will also find 1 in 1,000 GSPs or Drahthaars (or Weims or Vizslak) that are put through a retriever program, Robt. A few more may undergo it nowadays since those breeds and other continentals are eligible for AKC retriever hunt tests. The retrieving in NAVHDA tests is minimal and where at the "Invitational" a rudimentary water blind is required, it's most often accomplished without any handling of the dog as it takes a straight course across a body of water to find the bird at the water's edge on the far shore.

MG


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

A friend of mine went to the NAVHDA National. It really isn't a "blind" by retriever standards from his description. Dogs are allowed to hunt. The only "blind" (where they get the name) is the fact that the dog did not see nor, hear a gunshot. Many use the word, "Hunt Dead" as the cue to take off running around and find a feather.


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## JMejeur (Feb 18, 2013)

Matt McKenzie said:


> I had one in training last summer that is primarily an upland dog, but he did single marks surprisingly well. Went hard, ran straight and marked well. He came to me because his owner was having trouble getting him to pick up birds. I FF'd him and he did great. Like any dog, I adjusted my process to his temperament. He's picked up a ton of doves, a few ducks and a bunch of pheasant and quail since then. Nice dog. That said, I haven't tried to put him through the whole program to get him running blinds, so I can't speak to that. I have a friend back in Florida who runs shorthairs in HRC hunt tests and does well. I like his dogs a lot.
> I have another GSP that just got here for evaluation. We'll see how she works out.
> Like I told her owner, I have done retrieving work on pointing breeds, but I am NOT a pointing dog trainer. I'm a retriever trainer.
> The point to all this is there are some that will make nice retrievers and some that probably will not. If I were planning on running upper level retriever hunt tests, I would start with a different breed. If I were looking for a pointing dog that could pick up ducks out of the decoys in milder weather, I might go with a GSP.


thanks matt, thats exactly what im wanting to do with my dogs, just retrieve ducks out of a set of decoys. now after i get them back from training, i plan on training them to be docks dogs, i think that will be a fun activity for me and my dogs to particite in.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

JMejeur said:


> thanks matt, thats exactly what im wanting to do with my dogs, just retrieve ducks out of a set of decoys. now after i get them back from training, i plan on training them to be docks dogs, i think that will be a fun activity for me and my dogs to particite in.


There are quite a few folks who train around here that have GSP's that love swimming and fetching in the water. Will do it all day. I didn't mean my dialog to be discouraging in any way. I just would never pick a retriever trainer to experiment with their retriever training on your pointing dog.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Whats with all this ''Water'' with 'Shorthaired 'breeds?..


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## JMejeur (Feb 18, 2013)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> There are quite a few folks who train around here that have GSP's that love swimming and fetching in the water. Will do it all day. I didn't mean my dialog to be discouraging in any way. I just would never pick a retriever trainer to experiment with their retriever training on your pointing dog.


yea i completely understand where youre coming from. luckily, I have a friend that use to train labs only. and i asked him who i should talk to, and also after talking to other trainers around southern louisiana, this guy is highly recommended for both labs and pointers. i got the chance to go check out his facility a few weeks ago, and asked him, i know you can train labs, what makes you think you can train a pointer. and he told me that when he started out training, he trained pointers. also, his own set of dogs are english setters.

on another note, i am very new at the getting into the training side of dogs, so any tips or drills i could start doing before sending them off in april, would be a huge help.


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## JMejeur (Feb 18, 2013)

polmaise said:


> Whats with all this ''Water'' with 'Shorthaired 'breeds?..
> 
> 
> I reckon you guy's get with the programme of what the breed does/Do?
> ...


im not too concerned about the cold, living in southern louisiana, the temperature only gets down to about 32, and when it does get cold like that, i will have a vest for them. and as for as the water, and gsp's not being a water dog, what is the purpose of their webbed feet?


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## JMejeur (Feb 18, 2013)

and to add to that, most of the hunts we made this year, the coldest it got i believe was 45. we had a very warm winter this year.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I FF a LOT of GSPs. Probably ten or so a year, including one that qualified at the NAVHDA Invitational with a perfect score, as a two year old (she is an awesome dog). They FF just like any other dog, and are generally good retrievers.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

JMejeur said:


> im not too concerned about the cold, living in southern louisiana, the temperature only gets down to about 32, and when it does get cold like that, i will have a vest for them. and as for as the water, and gsp's not being a water dog, what is the purpose of their webbed feet?


 Pretty much all dogs have webbed feet. Don't let that marketing stuff fool ya.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Paul, on a continuous course with no bird field they can have birds flushed with a blank gun or if specified in the premium can shoot birds on the back course. In AKC trials they can have a bird field at the end of the course and handlers dismount and work the dogs on foot.Birds shot must be retrieved. I ran All Age and had Open Gun dogs. I marshalled and also judged a little too. Had one dog with a 5 point major at Madras in the mid '80s and also FC/AFC Von Der Feld Reinrossic Sky as an older dog.I was around GSP trial dogs from about 1972 through 1990.From the AKC Pointing Dog book "The premium list for any licensed or member field trial must identify any Retrieving Stake, and must specify each stake in which birds are to be shot. ........Retrieving is required in all Retrieving Stakes and counts as an important part of a dog's performance. After the shot, the handler shall not command or signal the dog to retrieve until the dog's steadiness to wing and shot has been positively demonstrated. The dog must retrieve promptly and tenderly to hand."


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

labsforme said:


> Paul, on a continuous course with no bird field they can have birds flushed with a blank gun or if specified in the premium can shoot birds on the back course. In AKC trials they can have a bird field at the end of the course and handlers dismount and work the dogs on foot.Birds shot must be retrieved. I ran All Age and had Open Gun dogs. I marshalled and also judged a little too. Had one dog with a 5 point major at Madras in the mid '80s and also FC/AFC Von Der Feld Reinrossic Sky as an older dog.I was around GSP trial dogs from about 1972 through 1990.From the AKC Pointing Dog book "The premium list for any licensed or member field trial must identify any Retrieving Stake, and must specify each stake in which birds are to be shot. ........Retrieving is required in all Retrieving Stakes and counts as an important part of a dog's performance. After the shot, the handler shall not command or signal the dog to retrieve until the dog's steadiness to wing and shot has been positively demonstrated. The dog must retrieve promptly and tenderly to hand."


Never seen that in the trials I've ridden. Must not be popular or common anymore? I was at Sulfur Springs Championships and an American Field Event. Watched plenty of pointer hunt tests which the birds in the backfield are shot and must retriever to hand. 

Most of what I know about pointers and force fetching I've been told from a guy who's made 60 AKC FC's he's also made Top GSP Gundog and Top GSP Open dog in the USA in his resume. Although he's better known for Setters including a National win. He doesn't "finish" it like we demand with retrievers IMO. Had a lengthy discussion about it one evening last spring. The need to FTP, FTW etc isn't there. It isn't being put together with a CC program, CC isn't leading into handling. Handling training is all different. He specifically said with many of his FC dogs, a strong FF would take the style out of them and he wouldn't be able to win.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I haven't been around pointing dogs for a long time and things could have changed. I believe they do have to have a retrieve for championship points. They would still have to deliver to hand and not munch the birds. So we're both right.  I still like your dogs any way. You coming down this year?

Jeff


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

labsforme said:


> I haven't been around pointing dogs for a long time and things could have changed. I believe they do have to have a retrieve for championship points. They would still have to deliver to hand and not munch the birds. So we're both right.  I still like your dogs any way. You coming down this year?
> 
> Jeff


I know they must do a SINGLE retrieve in their CAREER to get championship points. Not at every trial. just once. Hence little need for FF on the top bred pointers. They're bred to run big and point staunch. All they need a decent "hold" or "soft force" (as I call it) put into them like "most" JH dogs we encounter in our AKC retriever hunt tests.


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## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

GSPs can make great retrievers provided water not too cold. Mine are FF, Collar conditioned and trained like a Lab. Just takes longer and skill level usually about 18 months behind a Lab in retrieving if both trained the same way. Not as focussed or mentally as tough as Labs. Our retrieves include blinds 150 meters , multiple marks same distance and combinations of up to three. Channel swims, the lot - just not your distances. All retired guns. They do beat the Labs just not every weekend! Sharon Potter would be a good person to talk to about a suitable pro.


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## Mn John (Aug 26, 2008)

Paul:

You seem to be confusing Pointing Dog Hunt Test with Pointing Dog Field Trials, or at least you are using the terms interchangeably. They are different just like retriever Field trials and Hunt Tests. Further within the AKC venue there are retrieving stake and non-retrieving stakes. Some breeds like GSP's must earn points in at least one retrieving stake to earn their FC, while others like Pointers do not need to run retrieving stake to earn their FC. To further complicate matters, the rules and standards for AKC Field Trials are different than American Field Trials. American Field sanctioned trials a whole other level of competition.

To the question at hand, yes many Versatile Breeds (GSP"S Weim's, GWP, Vizslas, etc.) are FF'd for the same reasons that retrievers are, but I would caution using a "Retriever Training Program" on a young versatile dog. In my opinion too much obedience and control at an early age can limit the versatile dogs independence and range. A pointy dogs job is to go find birds, if I have to direct him where to go or he won't get out from under foot, it really limits his usefulness.

John


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Mn John said:


> Paul:
> 
> You seem to be confusing Pointing Dog Hunt Test with Pointing Dog Field Trials, or at least you are using the terms interchangeably. They are different just like retriever Field trials and Hunt Tests. Further within the AKC venue there are retrieving stake and non-retrieving stakes. Some breeds like GSP's must earn points in at least one retrieving stake to earn their FC, while others like Pointers do not need to run retrieving stake to earn their FC. To further complicate matters, the rules and standards for AKC Field Trials are different than American Field Trials. American Field sanctioned trials a whole other level of competition.
> 
> John


I definately do not know the intricacies of the Pointer trials, Brittany Trials, Chukar Challenges, Gun Dog Stakes vs. Open and the titles "Field Champion" that can be attached to the dogs even though they've never run against other breeds etc. The Pointing Breed Field Trial term, "Field Champion" is used widely and is far from any resemblance of consistency as we know it in the retriever world. AKC and AF have different sets of rules neither of which I know well. I have helped and watched about 15 AKC hunt tests. I have a much better understanding of their HT than the limited AKC Field Trials I've attended and worked planting birds. 

I do know, as I stated before that FF is not as much of a priority as we make it according to the successful Trialers I've been able to speak with in the last two years.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My question would be what's the dogs water attitude? That is probably the most limiting factor.
I have a friend with a GSP as his primary duck dog, the dog was always water based, made his training very easy. If you have a land-loving GSP, I'd recommend not banging your head against the wall trying the get a square peg in a round hole, keep him on land for an upland pointer/retriever. If you got a GSP that loves water, go for it they can make great water retrievers, might have to invest in a vest, they get cold. If you send him off to training find a pro that does both breeds, you don't want a pointer that sits, and doesn't point, might as well have a lab in that case .


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