# Post #161 from "Master Hunt Test Full" Discussion



## Frank Plewa (Feb 17, 2015)

I am not one to frequent or post on these types of forums but I do occasionally check this site to see what some of my old friends are into. It would be no secret as to why this particular thread caught my interest, particularly since NAHRA has been mentioned. I have been involved with NAHRA for 25 years but have tried other venues as well. As a hunter and guide, this one suited me best but I am not posting to give you my preferences. 

I just wanted to reiterate what a few have already said, NAHRA is still holding field tests and would love to have some new and old faces give us a try. We are very small organization in comparison to other venues making access to local tests a challenge but in another way, it can be an advantage as there is no problem getting a seat and you get where you are going pretty quickly. I am not suggesting anyone leave what they are doing now with their dogs, just saying there is another option until the problems you may be experiencing entering tests get worked out. In the process, some of our local clubs could use a shot in the arm with entries until you get back to doing what you like best.

NAHRA is particularly oriented toward the needs of the hunter and what comes with that is the upland and trailing tests. For those that prefer just marks and blinds, this may not be for you but maybe there are a few that might want to test the waters. At least until you can get back to what you are currently doing. If you can deal with the upland and trail for even a short time, in addition to our normal testing format, we have developed the Upland Retriever Program (URP). This pilot program is an amped up version of our regular upland test. The URP significantly increases the difficulty and diversity of our traditional upland test by incorporating a number of skills that are very much a fact of actual upland hunting. Thus far the tests have been very well received and will generate additional titles to participants. 

I am not trying to cherry pick here, just letting people know that we are still around and would love to have you try our game until current problems with entries get back on track. Take a chance and check out a NAHRA Field Test. You just might have some fun.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Frank Plewa said:


> I am not one to frequent or post on these types of forums but I do occasionally check this site to see what some of my old friends are into. It would be no secret as to why this particular thread caught my interest, particularly since NAHRA has been mentioned. I have been involved with NAHRA for 25 years but have tried other venues as well. As a hunter and guide, this one suited me best but I am not posting to give you my preferences.
> 
> I just wanted to reiterate what a few have already said, NAHRA is still holding field tests and would love to have some new and old faces give us a try. We are very small organization in comparison to other venues making access to local tests a challenge but in another way, it can be an advantage as there is no problem getting a seat and you get where you are going pretty quickly. I am not suggesting anyone leave what they are doing now with their dogs, just saying there is another option until the problems you may be experiencing entering tests get worked out. In the process, some of our local clubs could use a shot in the arm with entries until you get back to doing what you like best.
> 
> ...


I have copied this post of Frank's over from the "Master Hunt Test Full" discussion. I've done so because it was post #161, or at the top of page 5 for a setting of 40 posts per page..

I felt it deserved its own new thread for discussion.

In the Master Hunt Test Full discussion, RND, someone who was one of my mentors and role models when I started running NAHRA in the late 80s, mentioned NAHRA.

RND mentioned that others had discussed it with him and I'm one of those folks. Here's why I brought it up. It is absolutely true that the AKC Master Stake has become a desirable venue for many, many retriever folks. That said, I have commented to some how ironic it would be if Bill Tarrant and Richard Wolters could comment today on the Master Test Full dialogue.

Why? Those guys were involved in the startup of NAHRA, HRC and AKC Hunt tests. Not all, but part of their desire was to create venues where Joe Hunter , who had fulltime job responsibilities and maybe didn't have the best training resources or experience, could still go and have fun with his dog. 

The goal was to have these levels to compete against a standard for the pups, for the intermediate dogs, and for the experienced gundogs. 

Part of this was to get away from the Field Trial Venues at that time. The other part was to have a venue for Joe Amateur. Joe Hunter. A place where the pro was not a major part of the equation.

I don't want to rehash some of the reasons why NAHRA has receded in popularity in the new millenium while the AKC Master has gone nuts. I do want to point out that for those who are wanting to evaluate their amateur trained gundogs at all levels, who are fortunate to have access to one of the surviving NAHRA clubs, without complexity to enter an event - may want to give NAHRA a try.

It's still out there. It is lots of fun. 

It's certainly not for everyone. But there's a generation of folks beating their brains out trying to get their Master dog some line time that might just have some fun at a NAHRA event.

Chris


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

It's where I got my start as well Chris. Back in the '80's up in Alaska. My dog loved it and ran trials too. Didn't hurt him in either game.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

And even easier to enter now that NAHRA is working with hunttestsecretary.com for electronic entries!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Apparently, a young man named Ryan Eder is bringing NAHRA to Northern IL / SE WI.
I am excited for that opportunity!

NAHRA is where we started as well, the most fun we ever had running tests!

The "Regional Test" is a great concept.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Out there where?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Out there where?


Corey, I re-read my post and see where I referenced the phrase "out there".

Here's one of my final sentences:


> *I do want to point out that for those who are wanting to evaluate their amateur trained gundogs at all levels, who are fortunate to have access to one of the surviving NAHRA clubs, without complexity to enter an event - may want to give NAHRA a try*.


http://www.nahra.org is their website

Their "Find a club" link has the regions shown. One can click through and see the listing of clubs.

For Example, here's what their "Eastern Region" shows:


CLUB NAMECLUB WEBSITECITYSTE/PRVCOUNTRY Eastern Shore Retriever Club In Development Onancock VA Empire Retriever ClubIn DevelopmentLancasterNY Hudson Highlands Hunting Retriever Associationwww.hhhra.comCampbell HallNY Lake Champlain Retriever Clubwww.lcrcvt.orgSt. AlbansVT Leatherstocking Hunting Retriever Association, Inc.leatherstockinghrc.tripod.comCanandaiguaNY Navesink River Retriever Clubwww.navesinkriver-hrc.comToms RiverNJ Northern Piedmont Retriever Clubnprc.tripod.comLiverpoolPA Southwestern Pennsylvania Hunting Retriever ClubSWPAHRC.com
ExportPA Western New York Retriever Clubwww.wnyrclub.comClarenceNY Yankee Waterfowlers Hunting Retriever Clubwww.ywhrc.comWillimanticCT


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Corey, I re-read my post and see where I referenced the phrase "out there".
> 
> Here's one of my final sentences:
> 
> ...


Not only that, but I am certain that the organization would be happy to assist anyone who had the desire to START a NAHRA club in their own area or just have tests within the purview of already exsisting clubs...


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I started in NAHRA as well back in the mid-90s or so. I lived in MD and then VA at the time and could run a NAHRA test every weekend and still sleep in my own bed, except when we all made a road trip down to Big Elkin Creek each year. It was a lot of fun. I moved to ATL where they did not have NAHRA and when I moved back to the region, it had blown up and all the old NAHRA clubs had become HRC or AKC. It was fun though and the people were great.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I too started in NAHRA, great organization but it has all but died here in CO. There was a rumor that a person wanted to start a club, but from what I gather it's not gaining any steam right now. I think too many have moved on to HRC and AKC here. I know I moved on to AKC FTs. I would run their tests (work when I'm there) if they were to start back up, but's that's about all the time i would have...with my other commitments unfortunately I don't have the bandwidth other than that.

But I HIGHLY recommend those with the opportunities to check out NAHRA do it!


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

huntinman said:


> I am certain that the organization would be happy to assist anyone who had the desire to START a NAHRA club in their own area or just have tests within the purview of already exsisting clubs...


Yes they will!


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

huntinman said:


> Not only that, but I am certain that the organization would be happy to assist anyone who had the desire to START a NAHRA club in their own area or just have tests within the purview of already exsisting clubs...


I'd be willing to come Judge at no expense to the club (for any new or returning club). Harry


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## Cptmorgan177 (Oct 11, 2014)

I would love a club here in north georgia. Who would one need to contact to get one started?


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## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

road kill said:


> Apparently, a young man named Ryan Eder is bringing NAHRA to Northern IL / SE WI.
> I am excited for that opportunity!
> 
> NAHRA is where we started as well, the most fun we ever had running tests!
> ...


Stan thank you for mentioning this. I started the Upland Gundog Association to bring more upland to the retriever breeds and it evolved to an all breed upland organization. In the process we met some great NAHRA people and being in Northern IL, I wanted to bring the venue to the area. THe UGA founded the "Illinois Hunting Retriever Club", new this year and will be hosting NAHRA tests in the Northern IL area and Southeast WI. Our first upland test is March 15 at Bong State Park in Kansasville, WI. For any info, please contact me at [email protected]

Not trying to promote UGA here, just want to explain the connection and hopefully generate some interest. I think NAHRA has a lot to offer, especially for dogs in between the AKC JH and SH level... Very cool venue and I look forward to playing this year!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Corey, I re-read my post and see where I referenced the phrase "out there".
> 
> Here's one of my final sentences:
> 
> ...



Chris we have done this a number of times and I aways say I have no bone to pick with NHRA. Rubbergate is long dead and very few probably care about that any longer. 
My point is NHRA is but a pimple on an elephants ass. The eastern reason should be called the NE region as there is nothing in the south. As fun as NHRA may or may not be, I have never run it because there isn't a club within 800 miles of me, it will never be what AKC is because it has no recognized registry. The same issue keeps HRC in a distant second place. People run AKC because the titles are the most recognized in both hunting/dog circuits and in the General public. 
Neither HRC nor NHRA is going to do anything to help with the master situation. Hold all the HRC and NHRA you want, people will enter them and still enter master. 
I think the recession changed what a lot of people do these day. I know many, myself included, that use to run any venue any weekend. Now dollars are tighter and most want the best value for their buck and that usually means the venue with the most recognized titles. 
Have fun with the dogs with whatever you enjoy. If there were an NHRA around I would probably run it, as long as there was not an AKC test the same weekend.......or it is humting season......or an HRC test.....


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Cptmorgan177 said:


> I would love a club here in north georgia. Who would one need to contact to get one started?


I would contact Frank Plewa who is the president of the organization. His e-mail is [email protected]


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Chris we have done this a number of times and I aways say I have no bone to pick with NHRA. Rubbergate is long dead and very few probably care about that any longer.
> My point is NHRA is but a pimple on an elephants ass. The eastern reason should be called the NE region as there is nothing in the south. As fun as NHRA may or may not be, I have never run it because there isn't a club within 800 miles of me, it will never be what AKC is because it has no recognized registry. The same issue keeps HRC in a distant second place.
> People run AKC because the titles are the most recognized in both hunting/dog circuits and in the General public.
> Neither HRC nor NHRA is going to do anything to help with the master situation. Hold all the HRC and NHRA you want, people will enter them and still enter master.
> ...


FYI Corey .... 

We are NAHRA (North American Hunting Retriever Association) not the NHRA (National Hot Rod Association)!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

The Snows said:


> FYI Corey ....
> 
> We are NAHRA (North American Hunting Retriever Association) not the NHRA (National Hot Rod Association)!



See, I don't even get the pimples name right because there ain't many around.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Chris we have done this a number of times and I aways say I have no bone to pick with NHRA. Rubbergate is long dead and very few probably care about that any longer.
> My point is NHRA is but a pimple on an elephants ass. The eastern reason should be called the NE region as there is nothing in the south. As fun as NHRA may or may not be, I have never run it because there isn't a club within 800 miles of me, it will never be what AKC is because it has no recognized registry. The same issue keeps HRC in a distant second place. People run AKC because the titles are the most recognized in both hunting/dog circuits and in the General public.
> Neither HRC nor NHRA is going to do anything to help with the master situation. Hold all the HRC and NHRA you want, people will enter them and still enter master.
> I think the recession changed what a lot of people do these day. I know many, myself included, that use to run any venue any weekend. Now dollars are tighter and most want the best value for their buck and that usually means the venue with the most recognized titles.
> Have fun with the dogs with whatever you enjoy. If there were an NHRA around I would probably run it, as long as there was not an AKC test the same weekend.......or it is humting season......or an HRC test.....


Yes, you are right.

I thought your question was literal and was seeking a response.

I see now it was rhetorical and really just a setup for the same commentary you've made in the past whenever NAHRA is brought up.

I owe a NAHRA guy that I talked with before starting this thread a beer. He told me "that Badbullgator guy" will make the same sort of post if I bring up NAHRA.

He was right.

Back to my comment I made in the opening post.



> I do want to point out that for those who are wanting to evaluate their amateur trained gundogs at all levels, *who are fortunate to have access to one of the surviving NAHRA clubs*, without complexity to enter an event - may want to give NAHRA a try.


Corey, I never tried to sell you or anyone in Florida on NAHRA in this thread.

I'm trying to point out that old RAW would find great irony in the fact that a hunt test venue is filling up as it is - and that professional handlers are making up a large percentage of the field.

For some whose minds are not like concrete (all made up and permanently set) maybe there's something available to check out on a weekend when they can't get into an AKC master.

They might have fun.

Smile! It's fun!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> See, I don't even get the pimples name right because there ain't many around.


Actually, you had some quite close when you were in New England seeking some retriever judging activity.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?103463-New-England-judge-avaliable
12-27-2013, 08:37 AM#1​
badbullgator 








Senior MemberJoin DateDec 2004Locationsomewhere between Boca Grande and MimsPosts7,333

*







New England judge avaliable*

Alright all you New Englanders, I am up here for the next year or two and would love to get involved with the dog folks up here. I don't currently have a dog I am running, only two retired dogs. I am getting a puppy soon but won't be running it until next year at best. 
In the mean time I am an 8 point Master judge (as of Jan 23) and would me more than happy to take on some judging assignments. 
I am in NH but still show up under Florida in the judges search for some reason.​
Last edited by badbullgator; 12-27-2013 at 09:21 AM.​Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
Corey Burke​


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> Chris we have done this a number of times and
> *I aways say I have no bone to pick with NHRA.*
> *NHRA is but a pimple on an elephants ass.*


OK....

Nice...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Actually, you had some quite close when you were in New England seeking some retriever judging activity.
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?103463-New-England-judge-avaliable
> 12-27-2013, 08:37 AM#1​
> ...


My FLORIDA cracker ass didn't last long enough in NE to make it to any, or I would have. It might freeze here tonight or tomorrow. I have a fire going.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

huntinman said:


> OK....
> 
> Nice...


Come on Bill, how is comparing the size of an organization having a bone to pick. I wish them all the luck in the world and good for anyone who has one within 500 miles of them and enjoy running it. 
25 clubs, including 2 in Canada and 1 in Alaska is probably not even enough to call them a pimple. Regardless of what you have been told size does matter


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Frank Plewa said:


> I am not one to frequent or post on these types of forums but I do occasionally check this site to see what some of my old friends are into. It would be no secret as to why this particular thread caught my interest, particularly since NAHRA has been mentioned. I have been involved with NAHRA for 25 years but have tried other venues as well. As a hunter and guide, this one suited me best but I am not posting to give you my preferences.
> 
> I just wanted to reiterate what a few have already said, NAHRA is still holding field tests and would love to have some new and old faces give us a try. We are very small organization in comparison to other venues making access to local tests a challenge but in another way, it can be an advantage as there is no problem getting a seat and you get where you are going pretty quickly. I am not suggesting anyone leave what they are doing now with their dogs, just saying there is another option until the problems you may be experiencing entering tests get worked out. In the process, some of our local clubs could use a shot in the arm with entries until you get back to doing what you like best.
> 
> ...


I have nothing but fond memories of NAHRA. I entered an Intermediate test on site having never seen one. I just wanted to have a fun weekend with my dog. Kate had a wonderful time. The last test of was the trail. I told folks that we'd never trained for that & would just call it a day. Encouraged by the Granite State folks, we ran the trail and came away with an Intermediate pass. I made good friends with good dog folks who liked and respected my dog and vice versa. Granite State, Navesink, Frank Plewa, Larry Housman, Jack Kenney, Jim Greene, Chris Atkinson-all are part of my memories of Kate.

I play these games for my dog and while I want to give FTs a go- I appreciate what NAHRA has to offer. The dogs don't care what color the ribbons are. 

M


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Cptmorgan177 said:


> I would love a club here in north georgia. Who would one need to contact to get one started?


I sent you a PM. HPW


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

Perhaps a quick history lesson would help new people put NAHRA into perspective.

NAHRA started in the early 80's as Chris outlined (and thanks for starting this thread Chris) They were originally in a partnership with AKC but that ended fairly quickly. When they parted, AKC pretty much copied the NAHRA rule book and I believe some lawyers may have made a dollar or two writing nasty letters to get that squared away. Up through the mid-90's AKC and NAHRA peacefully co-existed, and when I started in NAHRA in 1995 there were clubs pretty much everywhere except the very deep south. Then a NAHRA management, long gone at this point, shot themselves in their tender parts, first by being very opaque regarding where members dues were going and following that up with a flirtation with using dokkens in tests.

That was the straw that broke the proverbial back and many, many clubs defected, some to HRC and some to AKC. And because no matter what program you are in, you are likely to stick with it unless something really pisses you off; once clubs went elsewhere they stayed there. Makes sense, as there was no great defection from NAHRA until the leadership gave them a reason.

So that is why NAHRA is much smaller than it was 20 years ago. It is the same program, with essentially the same rule book that AKC was so enamored with, and for the most part, when people run it they enjoy it. If you are an AKC aficionado you will find that every scenario you see in AKC master you may see in NAHRA; walk ups, honors, double blinds, etc. The difference is that all those scenarios are allowed but not mandated for each test. What you won't see in NAHRA senior that you see in AKC master is a cake double at the end of the day Sunday. There is also an upland test and trail. Very easy to train for, and the things that really set NAHRA apart from AKC and HRC (AKC doesn't know retrievers hunt upland birds, and HRC sets it up as a separate test not run in conjunction with their usual weekend tests).

Over the years I've seen many, many posts from people that started in NAHRA, loved it, and then moved on when things changed or they wanted to try field trials or other challenges. I don't recall a single negative comment about the test program from someone who actually ran it.

I'm not knocking AKC at all - I run that as well and plan on running the MN this year just to see what it's really like (I did a New Year's Eve in Times Square once on the same theory - never again!) But NAHRA is just more fun; the tests are more laid back and I can run two or three seniors in one weekend, as opposed to getting in one akc master by dark on sunday. NAHRA's rule book treats dog and handler like actual hunters - you can talk (softly) to your dog and a (quickly) controlled break is not an automatic death penalty.

So give it a try if there is a test in your area. It will keep you and your dog in shape while you watch for your name to show up at the top of the wait list!

For you Delmarva folks, there is a new club that will be holding their first test the weekend of April 17-19 in Onancock, VA. PM if would like some additional information as we're still working out details. Join the new club and you get access to a sweet set of ponds!

And if anyone takes up Harry on his offer to judge I'll offer to judge with him - always wanted to do that and I guarantee you'll enjoy the test!


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

You should write for the Chamber of Commerce.

Revisionist History regards

Bubba


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

Bubba said:


> You should write for the Chamber of Commerce.
> 
> Revisionist History regards
> 
> Bubba



Perhaps you could enlighten me on where I went wrong.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

You guys that have an axe to grind, give it a rest. Who cares about what happened years ago? The dogs sure as hell don't.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Bubba said:


> You should write for the Chamber of Commerce.
> 
> Revisionist History regards
> 
> Bubba


how can Bubba, AKA "Mr. Master National" know more about the first and best hunt test of them all than Larry?
and wouldn't "revisionist history" be like a few years back when you fav of fav's lost all that $$$$$ and you still defended it to all????? If it was not for the small group that sat and made NAHRA and dotted all the T's and crossed the I's at the after party of a field trial up here in Vermont back in '83 you wouldn't have an AKC master national to run. You should bow and give thanks instead of typing with your butt cheeks!:barf::barf:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Wow, I need another beer.


ok resume

/Paul


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Never said I knew more or even as much- just that I remembered it differently my friend.

I remember sitting in the basement of the Eagles Lodge in Vancouver in the fall of 1984 with a few friends and deciding to create a club to help support this new thing called NAHRA. I remember pouring an entire ****load of money, time and sweat into helping to create a network of clubs throughout the Northwest that became the crown jewel of NAHRA. I remember the struggles and thrills that came along the road to owning one of the first GMHR's west of the Mississippi. I remember the investment in time, energy and money to put on the 1992 Invitational here on Sauvies Island- and I also remember the aftertaste. I remember being the Northwest Regional Liaison and the response to our request for an accounting report.

I truly wish NAHRA the best we definitely need more options and it is time to let the scars heal. Larry's description struck me as similar to a tour guide at Gettysburg saying- a few guys died here a while back.

Different colored glasses regards

Bubba


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Bubba said:


> ...I truly wish NAHRA the best we definitely need more options and it is time to let the scars heal. ...


Well, Bubba, I guess we share some similar history. I agree with the quote.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Never said I knew more or even as much- just that I remembered it differently my friend.
> 
> I remember sitting in the basement of the Eagles Lodge in Vancouver in the fall of 1984 with a few friends and deciding to create a club to help support this new thing called NAHRA. I remember pouring an entire ****load of money, time and sweat into helping to create a network of clubs throughout the Northwest that became the crown jewel of NAHRA. I remember the struggles and thrills that came along the road to owning one of the first GMHR's west of the Mississippi. I remember the investment in time, energy and money to put on the 1992 Invitational here on Sauvies Island- and I also remember the aftertaste. I remember being the Northwest Regional Liaison and the response to our request for an accounting report.
> 
> ...


Hi Bubba,

I've read your post several times and it has really, really sunk in. To my mind, your post carries much weight. (Corey's been musing about NAHRA for years, but that's a totally different "issue") 

But you've got real time, real effort, real cost, real emotion, real personal insult and disrespect, real SKIN in the game.

Jagoda/Cannings can never take away your first GMHR West of the Mississippi. 

The genesis of this thread, which I'd be naive to expect that it would not take some of the detours I was trying to avoid, is this:

THE PRO - is a key part of our sport. 31 years ago in that Vancouver Eagles Lodge, the PRO was not a major factor in the decisions and the plans. This was a new game for Joe Hunter who did some training and wanted a venue to "succeed" with a retriever that met his needs. This was the genesis of the hunt test programs.

Today, the PRO is a major piece of the demand/sell-out puzzle with AKC Master tests. It's not wrong. It's not right. It just IS.

If Wolters, Tarrant, Driscoll, etc. were discussing this today, they'd probably be laughing pointing at the drivers that created hunt tests in the early 80's. The AMATEUR and a game for the AMATEUR was one of the primary drivers. (Who was first, who was second, who took whose logo and rulebook etc. is irrelevant for practical purposes)

So again, the reason Frank wrote his thing is to point out to some, who may be so focused on getting into AKC Master stakes on key weekends in their region for their local season, there *may be *an event available that they'd forgotten about or had not considered.

I did not join a group of folks to start a Western PA-based HRC club in 99/2000 because my dogs needed something different. I did it because the same nonsense and individuals that drove you away Bubba - drove me too. But that was many moons ago and there is a real need that is really not being adquately fulfilled.

Maybe this option can help a few.

Chris


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## ryaneder (Oct 29, 2009)

Well said Chris... very well said.

It is nice to have options; also nice to support those that try to keep the sport both alive and available.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Bubba (and others), who were there from the beginning...
If you will be honest with yourselves and look past the emotions, I think you will recall that the tests back in those days were a lot of fun, very challenging and you were very proud to walk away with a ribbon from your average Senior (master) test. 

It incorporates (at least it used to) most of the facets needed to be a well rounded hunting dog. And an MHR back in the day was certainly much more than that. 

My first trial dog was an AFC GMHR and he loved the excitement of the NAHRA events. 

I see an opportunity for more folks to actually play the game at a high level if they check it out.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

In those days of old, it was new and exciting. Today it is still worthy, fun and fulfilling for me. I miss my friend Steve/Bubba who I met at my first test, ran with, ran under, judged with and just had a grand ol' time. I miss those days. 

I've met alot of wonderful folk during my involvement in retrievers. Steve is as memorable as any. Those moments of special memories, NAHRA times are as memorable as any. I've been a continuous member since 1987 because it gives me a means to keep enjoying today and remembering yesterday. 

See ya in the field. Harry


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

HarryWilliams said:


> In those days of old, it was new and exciting. Today it is still worthy, fun and fulfilling for me. I miss my friend Steve/Bubba who I met at my first test, ran with, ran under, judged with and just had a grand ol' time. I miss those days.
> 
> I've met alot of wonderful folk during my involvement in retrievers. Steve is as memorable as any. Those moments of special memories, NAHRA times are as memorable as any. I've been a continuous member since 1987 because it gives me a means to keep enjoying today and remembering yesterday.
> 
> See ya in the field. Harry


Mr. Williams,
*YOU* are one of those memorable people as well!

I ran my pup in his first test under your judgement , he couldn't even swim!!
He handled the land marks, but when it came to the water, that was a different deal.
He ultimately waded into the water after the bird drifted close enough and drug the bird back.
He was 4 months old.
You and Shawn Piotter were kind, patient and helpful.

I'll never forget that.......it was a hoot!
Thank you!


stan b & Elvis

BTW~We still run AKC, HRC and get to run NAHRA this summer again.
After 2 knee surgeries (his, not mine), it is about playing in the yard with my dog again!
We are grateful for any opportunities to play.


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## Gun Dawg (Dec 18, 2010)

I too started w/NAHRA in the 80’s w/Harry W, Steve/Bubba, Butch Higgins, Tom Quarles, Mike Cloak, Dan Hosford, Dennis Erickson, Greg Lee, Greg Monroe, Bruce Meredith as well as many other weekend warriors & some have gone on to become true professionals in today’s HT’s & FT’s.
Those were the day’s, what fond memories, just a bunch of hunters playing doggie games in the off season with their hunting companions. I remember a test in Spokane, WA. when on a water triple, the bird boy drug the duck from the point/mark 30-yrds away, making it a cripple. Judge said you could tell your dawg to hunt’em up, but if you handled your dog to the bird, you were out. I’ll always be proud to have earned my 1st MHR title w/Chase, he was the 1st NAHRA MHR Golden Ret. West of the Mississippi. I owe NAHRA a lot, it was a special time for me as well as many others, here in the Pacific NW. 

Bubba… Quit your bitch’in

Gun Dawg


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

You just plain won't have any more fun in a dog game than running a NAHRA test, especially if you are a hunter that does both upland and waterfowl. They are all fun and I wouldn't knock the others but having started in NAHRA it will always be the most fun to me. A resurgence to fill a growing need for the true amateur would be great.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Before Gun Dawg scares any one too much.... trails off the mark are no longer allowed ;-) But if there is a truer test of a hunting dog I cant think of it!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

limiman12 said:


> Before Gun Dawg scares any one too much.... *trails off the mark are no longer allowed *;-) But if there is a truer test of a hunting dog I cant think of it!


You have to be kidding me! One of the best things about the program.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

huntinman said:


> You have to be kidding me! One of the best things about the program.


Logistically pretty hard to pull off and make it fair for 20+ dogs running. Though it is a really good "real" hunting test.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

One of the counter intuitive things about trails is that they don't work if they get over scented. If you drag a wet duck over the same path for 20 dogs, it gets very weird - and very unfair dog-to-dog. Dan is right that it's tough to make a good trailing test off a mark for a lot of dogs.

Trailing in training a few dogs is easy to set up and fun for the dogs. Howard Niemi wrote about how he used it as a fun end to training sessions - at least in his early days when he was transitioning from NAHRA. (I couldn't find the post.) My dogs love 'em and it helps in hunting that they know the que.

Trails off blinds CAN be done, but NAHRA eliminated that, too, because of problems with the way some judges used it. 

So the trails in NAHRA tests are usually pretty basic and the good judges make them fair and fun. Terry Plagman one of the best judges I've known, rest is soul, judged all the HTs and always had a great NAHRA test. He tried a trail at an HRC test I ran and got some resistance... (They ARE in the HRC book, but I rarely saw one in HRC.) Trails in hunting are invaluable - and sometimes I run a hunting blind to a spot where I'm not exactly sure where the bird went down or if it could move...

The experienced NAHRA judges will put on a fun fair test. Give it a try. (And keep running the other stuff, too, if you can get in.)


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

First time I had to do a trail in NAHRA back in the day, I trained my dog to do it the night before with duck scent and hot dogs. He was quite good at it and I was feeling good. He did a pretty nice job at the test the next day but pooped on the trail, so they had to re-do it for all subsequent dogs. I was mortified.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

DoubleHaul said:


> ... pooped on the trail...


Thar would "over scent" it ;-).


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Ok you guys have me interested. Have never seen and only recently heard of NAHRA. I can see that the clubs are a long way from me but I just might take a trip to run one. 3 dogs, all HRCH and MH. All can run upland. What additional training and could someone describe in general what a Master test would consist of. 

It seems that all who have run it love it.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

From the father of a 15 year old (at the time) daughter who quallified at an invitational a few years back, that she trained and handled about 80% of the time-YES. I didnt have a dog in the NAHRA game that year,but have played everything but HRC. Get your family involved-VERY FUN!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

The dog in my avatar was 
AFC GMHR Mr. Tanner's Pioneer Preacher
Some of the older Alaskans may remember Preacher.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Don't care if it's revisionist history, futuristic history or p*ssed-off history, great to see NAHRA back in lights (thank you, Mr. Atkinson, for the perspective, and Larry H. for the word about the new Onancock club). Remember one of the first NAHRA tests I ran with an "off-breed," airing her off-lead - suddenly, big commotion, snarling, gnashing teeth and the judges come running over thinking dogfight, only to find she's offed a groundhog. Maybe a "diversion" groundhog, as I had to remind myself this was NAHRA, not NAVHDA, and it might not be a good thing. But she delivered the groundhog to hand, then came out of the holding blind and picked up three chickens to get us both off the hook. NAHRA, a ton of fun any way you look at it, and any dog you put into it - and will stay that way in my book so long as certain folk have excused themselves from the organization and made it permanent for staying away.

MG


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

caryalsobrook said:


> Ok you guys have me interested. Have never seen and only recently heard of NAHRA. I can see that the clubs are a long way from me but I just might take a trip to run one. 3 dogs, all HRCH and MH. All can run upland. What additional training and could someone describe in general what a Master test would consist of.
> 
> It seems that all who have run it love it.


Cary,

If your dog already has those titles really all you need to make sure of is a sit to flush and steady to shot with possibly an honor (upland is often run as a 2 dog brace). And the trail, which if you hunt and your dog has chased a cripple you could "teach" them the trail in a day or two. Marks are run AKC style (noise at the throwing station) but don't be surprise to be holding a gun, running out of a boat, layout blind, thru some crazy judges 1000 snow goose decoys. If you could see it in hunting you could see it in NAHRA. Although its hard to make things realistic sometimes I think the judges really do strive to make it that way.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

caryalsobrook said:


> Ok you guys have me interested. Have never seen and only recently heard of NAHRA. I can see that the clubs are a long way from me but I just might take a trip to run one. 3 dogs, all HRCH and MH. All can run upland. What additional training and could someone describe in general what a Master test would consist of.


The top level in NAHRA is "Senior" and consists of a triple on land, triple on water, land blind, water blind, an honor, quarter, sit to the flush and the trail. Can be run in any order and series may be combined, depending upon how the judges set up there tests. As to additional training ... I would make sure you and the dogs are comfortable running out of a boat, off a platform, off a tree stand, out of the layout blind, etc


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Dan, Beings as you live out west now, maybe you should come north and visit at the West Regional July 25-26 near the Hood Canal. We like Bay Dogs and folks from Iowa. Harry


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

IowaBayDog said:


> Cary,
> 
> If your dog already has those titles really all you need to make sure of is a sit to flush and steady to shot with possibly an honor (upland is often run as a 2 dog brace). And the trail, which if you hunt and your dog has chased a cripple you could "teach" them the trail in a day or two. Marks are run AKC style (noise at the throwing station) but don't be surprise to be holding a gun, running out of a boat, layout blind, thru some crazy judges 1000 snow goose decoys. If you could see it in hunting you could see it in NAHRA. Although its hard to make things realistic sometimes I think the judges really do strive to make it that way.


Thanks Iowa Bay and the Snows. I did get off my butt and go to the NAHRA site and try to check out some clubs. The WI club's webb site was discontinued. I did get to the one in Iowa that runs at Skunk River and they did have a video of a senior test run in 2011. the grounds and water were great, almost worth it just to see such grounds. Dogs could get lost among the trees and bushes. Evidently difference between rules of tests no big deal if you have run both HRC & AKC. If the dog passed, I would think that the judges were lenient as to cast refusals but so what? 

There are three big concerns for me though. In upland, working with another dog. Due to nerve damage in my legs, I have trained my dogs to respond to the whistle because I move so slow. 2 quick whistles and they are to turn 180 degrees and quarter. I leave them alone, they would be 100 yards out in front of me. Don't know what effect having another dog in field would be for my dogs. 

Trying to get up and handle my dogs from a boat would be difficult at best and possibly impossible for me. As for getting out of a layout blind, no way could I get up in a reasonable amount of time to deal with my dogs. There appears to be additional differences between HRC and NAHRA upland, but I can't tell for sure. HRC dog flushes bird. Handler sits dog to flush and then shoots blank shot which triggers gunners to shoot bird. Dog must not break and must retrieve bird if killed or return to handler and establish another quartering for another bird. Not sure but neither dog appeared close to bird when they sat. Not even sure if a dog actually flushed the bird. Maybe video was not clear on that.

Lastly, not sure of the effect of trailing. I wonder if allowing dog to run so loose with no direction could cause dog to be lax in response to whistle and casts, something that is critically important to me at this time. 

I will say that I didn't see the rules on the web site. So what, I have yet to read those of either AKC or HRC completely. I have always just let the judges keep me straight of kick me out.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

HarryWilliams said:


> Dan, Beings as you live out west now, maybe you should come north and visit at the West Regional July 25-26 near the Hood Canal. We like Bay Dogs and folks from Iowa. Harry



Highly likely that will happen. My daughters want to run the pup in Hunt tests. I'm going to run her in Derbies this spring/summer. Technically I'm from Michigan via Iowa . I was just recently trying to find the dates for that test. Is there a website for that club that is up to date?


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

caryalsobrook said:


> Thanks Iowa Bay and the Snows. I did get off my butt and go to the NAHRA site and try to check out some clubs. The WI club's webb site was discontinued. I did get to the one in Iowa that runs at Skunk River and they did have a video of a senior test run in 2011. the grounds and water were great, almost worth it just to see such grounds. Dogs could get lost among the trees and bushes. Evidently difference between rules of tests no big deal if you have run both HRC & AKC. If the dog passed, I would think that the judges were lenient as to cast refusals but so what?
> 
> There are three big concerns for me though. In upland, working with another dog. Due to nerve damage in my legs, I have trained my dogs to respond to the whistle because I move so slow. 2 quick whistles and they are to turn 180 degrees and quarter. I leave them alone, they would be 100 yards out in front of me. Don't know what effect having another dog in field would be for my dogs.
> 
> ...


Once you see a trail you will see that the dog isn't running around loose, they are nose to the ground high tailing it to the bird. The NAHRA uplands I have done are not natural flush, they are box launchers, bird is launched, whistle sit, gunners kill bird (hopefully), dog is picked to make the retrieve. If you have physical ailments judges should make accommodations for that as well.


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## Dan Tongen (Nov 19, 2005)

I remember runnjng the test in the video, Nahra is a lot of fun with great people. You and your dogs will have a great time

Dan


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

IowaBayDog said:


> Once you see a trail you will see that the dog isn't running around loose, they are nose to the ground high tailing it to the bird. The NAHRA uplands I have done are not natural flush, they are box launchers, bird is launched, whistle sit, gunners kill bird (hopefully), dog is picked to make the retrieve. If you have physical ailments judges should make accommodations for that as well.


Ok I was right. I didn't think that there was an actual flush. It does bother me that there are 2 dogs in field. Most probably I would screw it up for the other dog. Diabetes has caused 100% loss of reflex nerves which causes me problems. I can still get around but at times very slow. the fact that I am 71 probably makes me a little slower also. Just a little effort on my part can often make things go well. I always try to walk to and from the line before the test looking for things that might cause me problems. One would be surprised how many problems can be eliminated by doing just that one little thing. 

The dog in the video seemed to wander quite a bit and that is the only example I have to go by. No clubs near me but eastern Iowa is doable. Besides just another opportunity to make new friends.

Thanks so much for the help.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

caryalsobrook said:


> Trying to get up and handle my dogs from a boat would be difficult at best and possibly impossible for me. As for getting out of a layout blind, no way could I get up in a reasonable amount of time to deal with my dogs.


I have seen judges make accomodations for handlers who may have mobility issues with a test set-up. Many years ago at a test in Ohio, the judges did everything they could to ensure that a gentleman in a wheelchair could successfully run his dog.

As to the rule book - http://www.nahra.org/about-us/rule-book.html

And to even give you some added incentive .... should you achieve your dog's MHR (Senior title) by mid-May of 2016 that will qualify the two of you to run in the 2016 Invitational which is to be held in Wisconsin next June! (If you achieve that title by mid-July of this year, you would qualify to run in this years Invitational to be held in August in Syracuse, NY)


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

The Snows said:


> I have seen judges make accomodations for handlers who may have mobility issues with a test set-up. Many years ago at a test in Ohio, the judges did everything they could to ensure that a gentleman in a wheelchair could successfully run his dog.
> 
> As to the rule book - http://www.nahra.org/about-us/rule-book.html
> 
> And to even give you some added incentive .... should you achieve your dog's MHR (Senior title) by mid-May of 2016 that will qualify the two of you to run in the 2016 Invitational which is to be held in Wisconsin next June! (If you achieve that title by mid-July of this year, you would qualify to run in this years Invitational to be held in August in Syracuse, NY)


Thanks all, Ft. Madison Ia. is a little over 400 miles from the farm and is doable. Definitely better than running at least 6 MH tests each year to qualify for the MN. Really no change in training other than adding a few small additions.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

The Snows said:


> I have seen judges make accomodations for handlers who may have mobility issues with a test set-up. Many years ago at a test in Ohio, the judges did everything they could to ensure that a gentleman in a wheelchair could successfully run his dog.
> 
> As to the rule book - http://www.nahra.org/about-us/rule-book.html
> 
> And to even give you some added incentive .... should you achieve your dog's MHR (Senior title) by mid-May of 2016 that will qualify the two of you to run in the 2016 Invitational which is to be held in Wisconsin next June! (If you achieve that title by mid-July of this year, you would qualify to run in this years Invitational to be held in August in Syracuse, NY)


That man was Frank Sears, a Vietnam Veteran running his dog "Homeboy". 

What fun it was watching frank and Homeboy. The marks would fall, Frank would bark out his dog's callname and off "Homeboy" would go!

Chris


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

caryalsobrook said:


> Ok I was right. I didn't think that there was an actual flush. It does bother me that there are 2 dogs in field. Most probably I would screw it up for the other dog. Diabetes has caused 100% loss of reflex nerves which causes me problems. I can still get around but at times very slow. the fact that I am 71 probably makes me a little slower also. Just a little effort on my part can often make things go well. I always try to walk to and from the line before the test looking for things that might cause me problems. One would be surprised how many problems can be eliminated by doing just that one little thing.
> 
> The dog in the video seemed to wander quite a bit and that is the only example I have to go by. No clubs near me but eastern Iowa is doable. Besides just another opportunity to make new friends.
> 
> Thanks so much for the help.


The trails in Senior are not dragged in a straight line. Expect your dog to "wander around" a bit. They may also be out of sight to you (but not to the judges) at times.

You will need to train your dog to trail on command. Have a unique command for it. I use 'trail, find it'. That will help the dog to compartmentalize the behavior.-Paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

caryalsobrook said:


> Thanks all, Ft. Madison Ia. is a little over 400 miles from the farm and is doable. Definitely better than running at least 6 MH tests each year to qualify for the MN. Really no change in training other than adding a few small additions.



Cary, the last NAHRA event I attended was one that I judged in 2002. 

One change to be aware of, and not caught off guard is that of more variety and more leeway on the part of the judges. 

Your dog may be out in front of a blind, while you're inside. Your dog may be on the bank of the pond, while you're over "fixing a decoy". Your dog may be on a treestand while you're 10 feet away from him. 

NAHRA judges definitely have been known to take the "cookie cutter" arrangement out of typical setups like you may see a bit more of in other venues.

No right.

No wrong.

Just different. 

*****************************************

On the topic of the discontinuation of the NAHRA "Trail off the Blind" allowance.

I remember a test where there was a creek flowing. The parking area and the holding blinds were on the South Side of the creek. The trail started on the North side of the creek. The water was flowing, was cold, and the creek bottom was rocky. 

The judges instructions were: Your dog's trail starts over there at that pile of feathers on the other side of the creek. How you get your dog from here to there is your choice.

Most folks "handled" their dog to the start of the trail, but the handling was not scored as a blind.

It was a creative workaround the removal of the "trail off a blind" rule. It was fun!

*******************************************************

The events that I also remember vividly were ones where every dog got his/her own live bird trail. Each was unique and each involved the release of a live bird. The dogs that returned with the bird "passed" the trail. Those that did not, did not pass the trail.

*******************************************************

Chris


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> That man was Frank Sears, a Vietnam Veteran running his dog "Homeboy".
> 
> What fun it was watching frank and Homeboy. The marks would fall, Frank would bark out his dog's callname and off "Homeboy" would go!
> 
> Chris


That's right .... and weren't you judging there with Cray??


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> The events that I also remember vividly were ones where every dog got his/her own live bird trail. Each was unique and each involved the release of a live bird. The dogs that returned with the bird "passed" the trail. Those that did not, did not pass the trail.


That brings up another name from the past ..... I remember Dan Kotarski setting up one of these when he came north to judge one year. Thought all the handlers were going to have a heart attack!! Not too worry .... every dog knew exactly what to do and I think every dog passed that trail!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

For those in the WI area, there is a NAHRA event scheduled at Bong on March 14th & 15th.
Here is the link;

https://huntsecretary.com/eventinfo.asp?mhuntid=1001755

I believe Mr Dan Hove and Mr John Guidice will be the judges.

Would be great to come and learn and enjoy a day with your dog.

C'mon, let's do this!!!!!


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

road kill said:


> For those in the WI area, there is a NAHRA event scheduled at Bong on March 14th & 15th.
> Here is the link;
> 
> https://huntsecretary.com/eventinfo.asp?mhuntid=1001755


Just to be clear .... this is NAHRA's new "stand-alone" upland test vs a regular NAHRA field test which has an upland component to it.

Come on out and have some fun!


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Cary, the last NAHRA event I attended was one that I judged in 2002.
> 
> One change to be aware of, and not caught off guard is that of more variety and more leeway on the part of the judges.
> 
> ...


Chris, I started reading your post, wondering who was going to get my butt out of the water when I fell. I do believe there are some tests and judges that if you are worried about passing, all you have to do is just complete the test. If may be ugly but just complete it. 

A couple of things about that trail. For sure if you can handle the dog to a specific spot and then give a command to trail, for sure the dog understands your commands. So I would think that is a great way to train for trailing. Now I am thinking( a friend of mine says I always overthink a subject), What if you got the dog to the trail and managed to cast him down it. Once he was on the trail then gave a shout to "trail". Would that be legal? Thinking again, it would probably depend on what the judges said was legal.

Seriously, it sounds like improvisation is the norm. As usual, I would be trying to figure out a simple way to perform the task that was easy and the judges had not thought of. I may be wrong but it looks as disputes wound up dominating success.

Thinking again, by the way, did anyone use a mule or 4-wheeler to get themselves and the dog across the stream? or how about their truck?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

When your dog is hunting, and tracking a big OL' rooster, does he go straight to the rooster?
Or does he "wander around" a bit to make sure he is on the hottest trail?


Maybe mine is the only one that does that when he hunts.........that and the fact that roosters have a tendency to "zig~zag" a bit anyways.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

Wow, I go away for a few hours to earn a living and miss two pages! Nice to see.

To address some of the issues:

Honors aren't required, it depends on the judges.

Braces in the upland I think are more of a regional thing - we rarely have them on the east coast. If one has a disability that is going to make a brace unfair for either dog, I know as a judge I'd do something to make the problem go away. This is not a competition so each dog isn't absolutely required to have the exact same test, so I'd be pretty liberal in making a situation fair for all.

If one has a disability of any sort we'll do what we need to do to make it fair. If you can't get up from a lay out blind then we're not going to require you to get in one. Same with a boat. Or any other issue. If you were actually hunting and couldn't deal with a boat you'd adapt your hunt accordingly - we'll do the same.

NAHRA.org has an event page that I believe you can get to without being a member. You can always shoot an email to the regional rep listed on the site or PM me here and I'll get you the right contact/info for you. (Like Bubba said, I'm the chamber of commerce rep to RTF!)

If you run the new club test in Virginia I'm pretty sure you are going to see a crap load of snow decoys, cuz the judges are going to have my entire rig at their disposal and I'll be pissed if they DON'T use it!

As I think Paul said, trails are their own deal, and don't cause dogs to be loose elsewhere anymore than upland quartering does. It really is 99% natural ability and all you can do as a handler is put them on the start of the trail, kick them off in the right direction (you usually know which direction the trail starts) and the rest is up to them. I have a 15 month old that I'm going to be running in senior beginning next month and I haven't even bothered to teach him trailing yet since it isn't a hard skill to teach. My first dog's first trail ever was in our first intermediate test and he did fine. Don't sweat the trail.

The upland, at least back east, is probably 80% with the bird released from a launcher box and 20% natural flush. Most judges are pretty leery of a dog getting mixed up with a box going off, so they usually get launched with the dog still a good distance away from the bird.


If you have an AKC master level dog I don't think you are going to have any problems with NAHRA marks and blinds. I run both interchangeably and do nothing different for either. As I said, the trail isn't that big a deal - drag a dead duck on a string without your dog seeing you and let him find it giving some command. That teaches what the command means and you're good to go. Make the first trails short and straight, and then move on to putting in a turn and then another. Most trails end up being U shaped, but with 2 distinct turns rather than a curve. that way you can stay near the start of the trail and when your dogs gets the bird call him straight back to you so he doesn't hog up the trail for the next dog. When you get to the actual test, you're generally going to get either a live duck trail, or a freshly killed duck with a lot of blood mixed in so the test trail is going to be easier for the dog that the dead, frozen duck trails most of us train on.

In upland you need to keep the dog within gun range, which you'll want to ask the judges what their distance is in advance so you know. If you try to use the old "but I'm a great shot and I shoot tons of birds at 80 yards" it won't work. But feel free to try, it amuses the rest of us. Steady to flush and shot doesn't mean sit, it just means steady - your dog can remain standing the whole time. It can creep a bit and as long as you get it stopped you'll be fine. For you AKC'ers, it's harder than a walk up because it's closer, but really the same principle. If you teach your dog to sit on the winger release for akc walkups you should be gold. you're allowed to tell your dog sit or blow a whistle (or both) as often as necessary (within reason), you don't have a one verbal or one whistle limit. You'll also get fly aways, either from suspect gunning or intentionally.

Mike, last time I saw you was at a test at the old Southern Maryland Club, so I hope you can make it down to Onancock. We're still trying to get all the administrative paperwork done with the state and mothership, and as soon as that's nailed down we'll open up for entries. In the meantime, anyone else in the area that's interested PM me.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

The Snows said:


> I have seen judges make accomodations for handlers who may have mobility issues with a test set-up. Many years ago at a test in Ohio, the judges did everything they could to ensure that a gentleman in a wheelchair could successfully run his dog.
> 
> As to the rule book - http://www.nahra.org/about-us/rule-book.html
> 
> And to even give you some added incentive .... should you achieve your dog's MHR (Senior title) by mid-May of 2016 that will qualify the two of you to run in the 2016 Invitational which is to be held in Wisconsin next June! (If you achieve that title by mid-July of this year, you would qualify to run in this years Invitational to be held in August in Syracuse, NY)



I think the qualifying deadline is going to be near the end of June, but plenty of time. Starting from scratch you need 5 passes to get your MHR and qualify for the Invitational. From Friday April 10th through Sunday April 19th east coast dogs can run 6 times and qualify pretty darn quick if you and your dog are up to it. Northern Piedmont in south central PA will hold a triple senior the weekend of the 10th, and the following weekend the new Eastern Shore RC is running 3 seniors as well (along with 3 Intermediates and 2 each of Started and Hunter). After that there are 6 more double tests scheduled through the qualifying period so plenty of opportunities. 

And the NAHRA Invitational is set up to showcase the dogs, not beat them into submission. It's harder than a weekend test, but not exponentially so. There aren't the time constraints that other national events seem to have. I've failed 4 of 'em so they aren't easy, but I never felt the test was unfair or over the top any of those 4 times.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Larry Housman said:


> Wow, I go away for a few hours to earn a living and miss two pages! Nice to see.
> 
> To address some of the issues:
> 
> ...


Thanks for another helpful post. I am sure the 1st test I run will be the 1st I see. Always looking for another enjoyment for my dogs. Best way for that is dog to the line!


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## Gun Dawg (Dec 18, 2010)

Ok, Me again…. I just couldn’t stop thinking about all the fun scenarios & times we had in the late 80’s run’in NAHRA HT’s.

Saint Louis Ponds – Gervais, OR. 
Test started from inside a John boat pulled just barely on shore, so you could get into the boat w/your dog & the dog had to deliver to hand inside the boat. And trust me some of the dogs didn’t want anything to do with get’in in that boat.
Triple with a Green Head live shot flyer…... 
But the kicker was one of the other 2 bird boys in the triple had a shackled duck that was tethered to a spring clamp devise, that was run down to a block & tackle, that was anchored to the bottom with a concrete block. Upon the judges signal the bird boy would throw the shacked duck out into the pond where it would stay on top of the water. When the handler sent his dog for that mark (judge said you can pick’em up in any order) and once the dog got within 10’ of the duck the bird boy would pull on the cord & the duck would dive under the water (crippled scenario). Those dogs had to go under the water to get the duck, just like a real crippled duck in hunting. We were in tears laughing, watching some of the dogs trying to figure out where that dam duck went, and if the dog got a bit out of the area the duck would miraculously reappear, to be pulled under for another go. The experienced hunting dogs had no problem, they’ve been there done that. 

Ya see, Back then it was mostly guy’s with dogs that were true hunting dogs, seasoned veterans. Dogs that woke up to the sunrise, waterfowl hunting in a blind or boat, dogs that quartered a pheasant field. They could find a downed/winged pheasant that was running the length of a football field. Today’s doggie games are still fun but different. We have AKC MH’s & HRC HRCH’s some of which live on a Pro’s truck in a box. Some never handled/run by their owners, some have never had the experience, being they’ve never been hunted. They’re trained for the games & they better go in a straight line or else. Those days are gone, but there are still true hunting dawgs amongst us, you just have to know who you’re playing with.
It’s been said before, if it wasn’t for NAHRA we wouldn’t have the AKC, HRC, SRS series HT’s of today.

Knough said, let the games begin….

GD


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

road kill said:


> For those in the WI area, there is a NAHRA event scheduled at Bong on March 14th & 15th.
> Here is the link;
> 
> https://huntsecretary.com/eventinfo.asp?mhuntid=1001755
> ...


A Bong event now that brings back some memories.:razz:


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

duk4me said:


> A Bong event now that brings back some memories.:razz:


Wrong kind of Bong.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

duk4me said:


> A Bong event now that brings back some memories.:razz:


It's actually the Bong Recreation Area!


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## Gun Dawg (Dec 18, 2010)

Most of today's Hunt Test dogs, couldn't find a rooster in their water dish
Thank you NAHRA, those were the days...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun Dawg said:


> Most of today's Hunt Test dogs, couldn't find a rooster in their water dish
> Thank you NAHRA, those were the days...


That's a stretch and its counter to why I started this thread. 

My my intention in bringing up this thread was to help some folks realize there was an alternative to full sold out AKC master stakes. 

The best hunting dog I have had yet has never run a NAHRA test and is allowed to break on flushing wild roosters!

i did not intend to start a "mine is better" thread. Just a "don't forget you may have an alternative thread." 

The word "may" is to address the known fact that for many NAHRA is not a local option.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I think what Gun Dawg said was that a lot of today's MH's are being trained primarily to run tests and all year long. Which has been pointed out to be not in sync with the intent, the hopes and the dreams of the origins of the HT movement. Regular guy training his own dog to be a better hunter and test in the off season. Such is evolution. Dinosaur regards, HPW


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> That's a stretch and its counter to why I started this thread.
> 
> My my intention in bringing up this thread was to help some folks realize there was an alternative to full sold out AKC master stakes.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chris for starting the thread. The nearest NAHRA to me is over 400 miles so running it regularly is probably not possible. But for me the attraction would be that IT IS DIFFERENT. It would be fun to see how I dealt with it and even more fun to see how my dogs dealt with it. So what if I don't run it enough to get another title.

Sadly it seems to me that dispute were the cause of defeat for NAHRA and it appears that the other HT clubs may very well suffer the same result. In any case, I find a NAHRA test somewhere around 400 miles from me in July, I intend to go. Can't imagine it being anything but fun to run and fun to make new friends.

Thanks again.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I too enjoyed NAHRA tests back in the '90's. I enjoyed running under Mr. Plewa and Mr. Stroyan among others.

Watching Frank and Homeboy was a treat. You never really knew the wheelchair was much of a hindrance.

The NAHRA tests tended to be smaller so there usually wasn't the time pressure to run a large number of dogs through. This let judges be more creative. This usually resulted in more stress for the handlers. The dogs didn't seem to mind at all.

I remember a water test in some flooded timber in a small pond. This pond was quite a ways below the level of the road with steep banks on either side. The judges had you come in and sit for a minute or two. The one of the judges would start calling, and calling and calling. The handlers kept waving their hands behind their back for the birds. The judge just kept calling. The handler would look back at the judges. The judge just kept calling. The sound of the call echoed of the deep banks. Just about the time the handler could not take it any longer the judges would call for the birds. My recollection is all the dogs passed.

Tom


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I used to compete in all three standards. The Great Southern HRC and another club near Madison GA had 8 tests each year. The Central Ala and Cahaba Valley clubs had 8 HRC events each year, Between the various AKC clubs ... Atlanta, East Tenn, Chattanooga, Middle Tenn, Mid-South, Magnolia, and Tallahasee clubs, there would usually be 8-10 I could attend. All of these were within a 4 hour drive.

NAHRA had one thing which neither of the other clubs had. Since NAHRA was not associated with a registry, they felt the need to recognize the show champions amongst the NAHRA accomplished working dogs. Thus began the NAHRA Working Dog Champion (WRC) title ... a NAHRA WR with a show championship from AKC (and others). I believe that my Cheyenne was the only but certainly the first WRC Toller.

I certainly hope that program is still around or could be revived. It reflects a dog that is accomplished in the field but that is structurally sound amongst it's peers.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> I think what Gun Dawg said was that a lot of today's MH's are being trained primarily to run tests and all year long. Which has been pointed out to be not in sync with the intent, the hopes and the dreams of the origins of the HT movement. Regular guy training his own dog to be a better hunter and test in the off season. Such is evolution. Dinosaur regards, HPW


I believe there may be a greater than normal amount of AKC MH participants looking at RTF these days to keep up with David Didier's sticky on the Entry Express changes.

I felt it appropriate to make it clear that my intent in starting this thread was not to belittle what they choose to do.

Frankly, I actually think it is WONDERFUL that there has been the separation that has taken place between AKC, HRC and NAHRA. Here in America, consumers like choices. Folks have preferences. It's good to have diversity and the ability to pick and choose.

I just wanted folks to remember that the oft-times forgotten NAHRA is still around. I have a feeling there's a generation or two of retriever gamers that may not realize it.

Chris

*************************

Here's one aside regarding NAHRA. If it weren't for NAHRA, I would not be who I am today. I'd not have found my wife, I'd not have many of my friends, I'd not have the lifestyle I have, and this website would probably not be here.

Even though my current lab (age 8) has never run a NAHRA, he has absolutely benefitted from things I learned as a result of the NAHRA program.

**************************

I had another private exhange with someone who mistook my comment about the AMATEUR versus the PRO and the role of those individuals in hunt tests. Someone pointed out to me that NAHRA has always had wonderful pros who made the game what it was, and what it is.

I don't mean to discount that - or those people. Here are a few that stand out in my memory - Old-Time NAHRA pros that made the game what it is - according to the Janitor:

Joe and Arch Letta, Tom Stasierowski, Alan Pleasant, Jimmy Cimburke, Vito Angelone, Charlie Jurney, Charles Lee Atkinson (maybe not a pro but a cool name anyhow), Trish Jagoda and Chris Hendra, Richard MacDonald, Joseph McCann, Neil Selby.

Fond memories....lots and lots of them......

Chris


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)




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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

The guy in the middle has too much camo on. :shock:


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Larry Housman said:


> . I have a 15 month old that I'm going to be running in senior beginning next month and I haven't even bothered to teach him trailing yet since it isn't a hard skill to teach. My first dog's first trail ever was in our first intermediate test and he did fine.* Don't sweat the trail.*
> 
> I am sorry, but did Larry Houseman just say don't sweat the trail? ;-).


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

limiman12 said:


> Larry Housman said:
> 
> 
> > . I have a 15 month old that I'm going to be running in senior beginning next month and I haven't even bothered to teach him trailing yet since it isn't a hard skill to teach. My first dog's first trail ever was in our first intermediate test and he did fine.* Don't sweat the trail.*
> ...


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

road kill said:


>


Look at that .... A fellow by the name of Chris A running a dog named Champ in Started 1 !


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

The Snows said:


> Look at that .... A fellow by the name of Chris A running a dog named Champ in Started 1 !


And apparently not having an inferiority complex about it, Sue, even plumb in the middle of all them - what you call 'em? - duck troller dogs...

MG


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

John Hamilton and Merrilee W's tollers were the first I'd ever seen. Rusty is probably the most memorable toller for me.

I remember that weekend like it was last weekend.

I had a maroon Pontiac 6000 and by Sunday, there was so much yellow dog hair woven permanently into that interior, I knew I had to get a pickup. Shortly thereafter I got old brown.

Chris


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> John Hamilton and Merrilee W's tollers were the first I'd ever seen. Rusty is probably the most memorable toller for me.
> 
> I remember that weekend like it was last weekend.
> 
> ...



I have fond memories of 'old Brown'.......


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

paul young said:


> I have fond memories of 'old Brown'.......


Even though Neil Young's song "Long May You Run" is about his hearse that he bought as a "Squier" when he was young, that song makes me think of Old Brown.

And Speaking of Old Brown....here's her tailgate and old NY Vanity plate.

That's young Luke with one of his first hunting retrieves. That bird is mounted today in my livingroom but Luke and old Brown are both long gone.

Luke's the one that we filmed the WATERDOG TV episode about after the boating accident and subsequent amputation. He was a GMHR on 4 legs and then an HRCH on three.


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## Jim Wetzler (Jul 16, 2007)

Chris, if it weren't for Joe and Arch, many in western NY would have neer not only had capable retrievers but wouldn't have run NAHRA. Its all Joe's fault I got started and still continue. Mike Hass and i just got new pups so the fun continues.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

twall said:


> I too enjoyed NAHRA tests back in the '90's. I enjoyed running under Mr. Plewa and Mr. Stroyan among others.
> 
> Watching Frank and Homeboy was a treat. You never really knew the wheelchair was much of a hindrance.
> 
> ...


I believe I remember that test. Could always count on Frank to set up interesting tests, the more timber down in the pond the better he liked it, or so it seemed. Like others, I cut my teeth in NAHRA. Meet many great people and miss seeing a few of them since the clubs close to me all folded. In my clubs case it was not from a National issue. Just the few members truly running the club all had kids growing up, got burned out and pulled in too many directions. Always enjoyed running under Frank, Joe Stambaugh, Mike Author (I think was his name) from Michigan, plus others I cannot remember now but can see their faces. And of course this is where I meet our notorious leader, Mr Atkinson, and we have been good friends ever since. So I have lots of good memories of NAHRA and would still run them if they were closer.

I remember one test, cannot remember where it was, my two dogs, mother and daughter, both running NAHRA Senior had a great weekend and just ate up the tests. I was running the younger dog on the final water series and the judges were complimenting me on how nice it was for them to watch my dogs. Wouldn't you know the dog got a bit lost in the water weeds and actually ended up jumping into the canoe they were using for the bird boy. I was able to handle her out to the mark and it was the only handle for the weekend. We passed but I think the judges thought they had jinxed me with the compliment. We had a good laugh over it.

Lots of good people and memories. 
But met many good people in AKC and in HRC, so basically we are all just "dog people".


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

NateB said:


> I believe I remember that test. Could always count on Frank to set up interesting tests, the more timber down in the pond the better he liked it, or so it seemed. Like others, I cut my teeth in NAHRA. Meet many great people and miss seeing a few of them since the clubs close to me all folded. In my clubs case it was not from a National issue. Just the few members truly running the club all had kids growing up, got burned out and pulled in too many directions. Always enjoyed running under Frank, Joe Stambaugh, Mike Author (I think was his name) from Michigan, plus others I cannot remember now but can see their faces. And of course this is where I meet our notorious leader, Mr Atkinson, and we have been good friends ever since. So I have lots of good memories of NAHRA and would still run them if they were closer.
> 
> I remember one test, cannot remember where it was, my two dogs, mother and daughter, both running NAHRA Senior had a great weekend and just ate up the tests. I was running the younger dog on the final water series and the judges were complimenting me on how nice it was for them to watch my dogs. Wouldn't you know the dog got a bit lost in the water weeds and actually ended up jumping into the canoe they were using for the bird boy. I was able to handle her out to the mark and it was the only handle for the weekend. We passed but I think the judges thought they had jinxed me with the compliment. We had a good laugh over it.
> 
> ...


Nate,

Cray and I judged for you guys when you ran Diamond and Raven and I told you that they were tied for "1st" and "2nd" if we were going for placements. I think Diamond may have hopped in the canoe after that.

I kept track and always wanted a Diamond puppy.

When you bred her final litter to FC Joe and asked me what I thought of the ad before you posted it, I wrote back that I wanted you to accept my deposit before you posted the litter for pick male.

That pick male is at home waiting for me right now. While he won't ever likely run a NAHRA test, he sure does benefit from things NAHRA, Champ, Luke, Maili and Bubba taught me. (as well as a whole lot of friends and contacts in the NAHRA program along the way, yourself included)


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Mr Janitor ... I still remember that "little" yellow dog of yours!! Always wondered what the breeding was ... From his size figured it must have been yellow lab and Clydesdale!! ;-) Luke was definitely a keeper!


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

If you haven't seen it, the History of NAHRA has copies of past magazines and Invitational catalogs. If you are not in them, you might be surprised who is. Worth a look see. Harry
http://nahra.org/history.html


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

I looked at that and saw wolters articles too. a guy at the gas startion told me to read that one soon. I saw the ad at on the last page too because i remember gainnsburger food. We fed it to old dog that died a long time ago when I was a kid he didnt have teeth. i think mom got mad at Dad for buying expensive food for buck but dad liked him he didnt have teeth so he got soft gainsburger in bags that s funny i remember that from the ad on the last page.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

HarryWilliams said:


> If you haven't seen it, the History of NAHRA has copies of past magazines and Invitational catalogs. If you are not in them, you might be surprised who is. Worth a look see. Harry
> http://nahra.org/history.html


 Holy smokes, did you see those old TT e-collar prices?????!!!!!!!


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

How about the pass rates in the mid 80's. Seen 58 out of 131 in started, many tests with only 3-7 qualified with 20-30 starters. Looks like it used to be judged harder than currently.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

No, think how far training has come......


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

HarryWilliams said:


> If you haven't seen it, the History of NAHRA has copies of past magazines and Invitational catalogs. If you are not in them, you might be surprised who is. Worth a look see. Harry
> http://nahra.org/history.html


Cool link. Fun to look back and see my old dog's name in some of those tests. Also, I was apparently a NAHRA sponsor. Not sure that that entailed but I seem to remember getting a patch or something.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Wyldfire said:


> How about the pass rates in the mid 80's. Seen 58 out of 131 in started, many tests with only 3-7 qualified with 20-30 starters. Looks like it used to be judged harder than currently.



The standard hasn't changed cut like Fritz said training has gotten better. And even more likely people are actually training vs just throwing their beat dog in a test. Remember these were the very early days of hunt testing and they were trying to appeal to the hunter and amateur not the field trialer, which was the only game at the time.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> The standard hasn't changed cut like Fritz said training has gotten better. And even more likely people are actually training vs just throwing their beat dog in a test. Remember these were the very early days of hunt testing and they were trying to appeal to the hunter and amateur not the field trialer, which was the only game at the time.


Just curious, were you running NAHRA tests in the late 80's-early 90's?-

And what the heck is a 'beat dog'?Paul


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

limiman12 said:


> Larry Housman said:
> 
> 
> > .* Don't sweat the trail.* ;-).
> ...


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

paul young said:


> Just curious, were you running NAHRA tests in the late 80's-early 90's?-
> 
> And what the heck is a 'beat dog'?Paul



Meat dog, typo. No but the person that mentored me was there on day one and I've been pretty well schooled on its beginnings. Do you have an issue with my assertion or just generally being a jacka$$?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes, I do. I started running dogs in NAHRA in '91. The tests then would stand up to the ones run today. In fact, some were over the top. 

I don't know ANYONE who just threw a 'meat dog' into the tests without training them first.

Now, because I dared to disagree with someone who didn't actually run NAHRA tests in the time frame referenced, does that make me a jackass?-Paul


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I really don't know if this is the right thread to respond, but here goes. first, this will not go over well with the clubs that have a low turn out. I suggest that you give a two year exemption to all dogs that qualify for the national master. So that the pro's do not have to Qualify ever year.

Keith


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Just to clear one thing up, there was a NAHRA test in Sarasota back in the 80's. Still have that little ribbon. I guess it never caught on. It was during the time when the Suncoast Retriever Club was trying to "find themselves".


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

paul young said:


> Yes, I do. I started running dogs in NAHRA in '91. The tests then would stand up to the ones run today. In fact, some were over the top.
> 
> I don't know ANYONE who just threw a 'meat dog' into the tests without training them first.
> 
> Now, because I dared to disagree with someone who didn't actually run NAHRA tests in the time frame referenced, does that make me a jackass?-Paul


If you don't know anyone then it must not have happened right. How do you explain the low pass rates in started if everyone in the 80s was a training genius? No videos, few to no books and most that were available were wrong, no internet, very few pros. A dog that can't pick up 4 singles is pretty un-trained in my mind. Hell when I started running tests in 2000 there were still people showing up to run Started that never trained their dogs, even more showing up to club days. That's why they call it "started".


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> If you don't know anyone then it must not have happened right. How do you explain the low pass rates in started if everyone in the 80s was a training genius? No videos, few to no books and most that were available were wrong, no internet, very few pros. A dog that can't pick up 4 singles is pretty un-trained in my mind. Hell when I started running tests in 2000 there were still people showing up to run Started that never trained their dogs, even more showing up to club days. That's why they call it "started".


Well, there you go. IF you actually knew what you're talking about, you would know that a started test is comprised of *5* singles, 2 on land, 2 in water and the 5th at the discretion of the judges. In the early years, they were not run on nicely sculpted fields and technical ponds. The cover the dogs had to negotiate was substantial, sometimes with several changes of cover.

The first test I ran was a started test in 1991. The first single was a shot flyer pheasant with the gunning station completely hidden , 70 yards long, from a dirt road, down a steep incline, thru cover that was head high, out into wet, marshy cover. 37 dogs attempted the mark and 22 recovered the bird. The other 4 marks weren't gimmes either. 14 dogs passed that test.

I ran a Senior test where 4 dogs out of 38 were called back after the water blind. 95 yards, angle entry down a steep incline, parallel to shore on the right for 30 yards, past a point, across the pond. 30 mph left to right cross wind in a driving rain. 2 dogs eventually passed that test. A BUNCH of those dogs that failed had passed the Invitational 2 weeks earlier.

I've run over 125 NAHRA tests and judged around 40. Trained 3 GMHR'S myself. The tests and dogs back then were good quality and would be so even today.

Oh yes, and we had Pros. A bunch of them. One you may have heard of is a guy named Alan Pleasant. He had great dogs in those days, too.

It's a great game with nice people. If people try it they can arrive at their own conclusions. I don't think they'll be disappointed.-Paul


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

paul young said:


> Well, there you go. IF you actually knew what you're talking about, you would know that a started test is comprised of *5* singles, 2 on land, 2 in water and the 5th at the discretion of the judges. In the early years, they were not run on nicely sculpted fields and technical ponds. The cover the dogs had to negotiate was substantial, sometimes with several changes of cover.
> 
> The first test I ran was a started test in 1991. The first single was a shot flyer pheasant with the gunning station completely hidden , 70 yards long, from a dirt road, down a steep incline, thru cover that was head high, out into wet, marshy cover. 37 dogs attempted the mark and 22 recovered the bird. The other 4 marks weren't gimmes either. 14 dogs passed that test.
> 
> ...


Paul, don't confuse IowaBayDog with facts
He is a classless bore who can't discuss things without going personal, and insulting someone


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I guess I don't understand the "debate" in the recent posts. I joined NAHRA in 1984 when it was still affiliated with the AKC and ran the first tests in our region in 1985. I'm not so clear on all the facts, so I won't try to confuse anyone.

What I remember is that there was some "experimentation" in the 80's while people learned what worked - especially in the trailing and upland tests. Most folks were new to judging and there were also a couple of short-lived "fads." There were also some good judging clinics like ones Gary Erickson and Lewis Brothers gave in Iowa and Jack Jagoda gave in Minnesota. By the 90's the midwest had pretty consistently sound fair tests. I think NAHRA "stabilized" around here before AKC/HTs.

Whether tests were harder or easier on the average, I'm not sure. My first dog was hard to train (with hindsight) and I had no idea what I was doing. But she and I had a lot of fun in struggling to get her MHR. A few of the early NAHRA dogs were truly great by any standard - Turk, Molly, Jessie, Cinder, & Nell stand out in my memory.

You can read the filler piece I wrote one quarter (when nothing good cam in) at: http://nahra.org/images/stories/PDF/2006_NAHRA_Newsletter_Fall.pdf

I've scaled back my involvement for personal reasons, but I hope NAHRA can hang on around here. To me the most satisfying thing about the program is all the hunters I've met and helped earn their first Working Retriever title - and then take their trained retriever hunting. For me, it's not about competing - or pass rates - or "difficulty" ...


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

paul young said:


> Well, there you go. IF you actually knew what you're talking about, you would know that a started test is comprised of *5* singles, 2 on land, 2 in water and the 5th at the discretion of the judges. In the early years, they were not run on nicely sculpted fields and technical ponds. The cover the dogs had to negotiate was substantial, sometimes with several changes of cover.
> 
> The first test I ran was a started test in 1991. The first single was a shot flyer pheasant with the gunning station completely hidden , 70 yards long, from a dirt road, down a steep incline, thru cover that was head high, out into wet, marshy cover. 37 dogs attempted the mark and 22 recovered the bird. The other 4 marks weren't gimmes either. 14 dogs passed that test.
> 
> ...



That's great that we all have your resume now maybe you could answer the Wyldfire's original question as to why the Started pass rates were so low back then. From your post they were all trained and there was no shortage of pros running started according to you so were the judges just that harsh?

Actually nevermind, Keith answered the question.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> Just to clear one thing up, there was a NAHRA test in Sarasota back in the 80's. Still have that little ribbon. I guess it never caught on. It was during the time when the Suncoast Retriever Club was trying to "find themselves".


I missed that one.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

T.Bond said:


> I looked at that and saw wolters articles too. a guy at the gas startion told me to read that one soon. I saw the ad at on the last page too because i remember gainnsburger food. We fed it to old dog that died a long time ago when I was a kid he didnt have teeth. i think mom got mad at Dad for buying expensive food for buck but dad liked him he didnt have teeth so he got soft gainsburger in bags that s funny i remember that from the ad on the last page.


Best post ever. Well other than Angie shaving hers in the summer......


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

There were good dogs and good trainers. But I think that on the average the training and the breeding is better today than it was in the beginning. I also think the judging is better now. 

But the urination contests haven't improved near as much!!! Harry


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Keith Stroyan said:


> ... To me the most satisfying thing about the program is all the hunters I've met and helped earn their first Working Retriever title - and then take their trained retriever hunting. For me, it's not about competing - or pass rates - or "difficulty" ...


What made NAHRA work in our area was hunters willing to do the work to train, run, and put on events for their dogs. If you're interested and you're in the area, there will be a clinic in clear Lake, Iowa on Sat 7 Mar. http://www.eihra.net/#!functions/cq4e That's a good way to find out what it's about ('till the thaw! - then run one.)


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## Dan Tongen (Nov 19, 2005)

Nothing better than having your dog bail you out when you dont drop that bird cleanly and have your dog trail and find that bird for you

Dan


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

First of all....Paul and Dan....knock it off. The program doesn't need the garbage you two are fighting about, there is a NAHRA forum for that....I also find it funny that you two are arguing about crap that happened 20 years ago...neither one of you has even run a NAHRA test in at least 5 years,...

You're not doing NAHRA any favors regards -


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dan Tongen said:


> Nothing better than having your dog bail you out when you dont drop that bird cleanly and have your dog trail and find that bird for you
> 
> Dan


I have a couple bands on my duck call lanyard that I owe to this very skill. And I have NAHRA to thank for it!

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Labs said:


> First of all....Paul and Dan....knock it off. The program doesn't need the garbage you two are fighting about, there is a NAHRA forum for that....I also find it funny that you two are arguing about crap that happened 20 years ago...neither one of you has even run a NAHRA test in at least 5 years,...
> 
> You're not doing NAHRA any favors regards -


Hey, hey now... Let's not throw all those commenting in this thread for not running a NAHRA in years into the same pot.  The last time I ran a NAHRA test was around 99 or 2000. And I don't plan to run one anytime soon....

But I STILL think Wolters and some others would be flabbergasted by sold out Master tests. And I STILL think that there may be something that displaced folks who tried to run a local AKC Master, but could not get in, could go do that would be just as fun.

Frankly, we need every dog game venue that's going to stay healthy and strong. The last thing our sport needs is consolidation of dog games, in my opinion. 

Go AKC FT, GO AKC HT, GO HRC/UKC, GO NAHRA, go pointing lab programs...etc. etc... (I wish NFRA could have lived - it was fun too, so was Robert Milner's simulated Brit FT game!)


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

truthseeker said:


> I really don't know if this is the right thread to respond, but here goes. first, this will not go over well with the clubs that have a low turn out. I suggest that you give a two year exemption to all dogs that qualify for the national master. So that the pro's do not have to Qualify ever year.
> 
> Keith


Keith currently to quallify for the NAHRA Invitational all you need is a Senior (MHR) titled dog. The requallifying item has been dropped until numbers get back to an unmanageable level.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Wyldfire said:


> How about the pass rates in the mid 80's. Seen 58 out of 131 in started, many tests with only 3-7 qualified with 20-30 starters. Looks like it used to be judged harder than currently.


Well; the started test in Minot 2003 water series was a down the shore- angle entry in, across water, up and over a small island , back through water, up the steep bank through cattails, across the gravel road, and on the down side of the bank next to the big pond.


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## Steve Weaver (Feb 8, 2011)

If I were only a hunter, wanted to buy a hunting dog and knew nothing about dog titles I would do some research. My research of AKC HRC & NAHRA would help me determine that all three test for retrieving skills of varying degrees. Two organizations test for upland hunting with testing separate from there normal testing. My findings when researching NAHRA would find that at upper levels NAHRA includes an upland testing to receive an upper level title. Since I am in the Midwest and hunt waterfowl and upland game I would lean towards a NAHRA titled dog as it has proven it's ability to hunt the game I will be pursuing.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> Well; the started test in Minot 2003 water series was a down the shore- angle entry in, across water, up and over a small island , back through water, up the steep bank through cattails, across the gravel road, and on the down side of the bank next to the big pond.


I'm not sure "bragging" that a started test had a down the shore angle entry is really a way to build the program, unless you follow it up with "those judges were never allowed to judge again". Inducing bank running in started dogs is complete lunacy.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hey, hey now... Let's not throw all those commenting in this thread for not running a NAHRA in years into the same pot. The last time I ran a NAHRA test was around 99 or 2000. And I don't plan to run one anytime soon....
> 
> But I STILL think Wolters and some others would be flabbergasted by sold out Master tests. And I STILL think that there may be something that displaced folks who tried to run a local AKC Master, but could not get in, could go do that would be just as fun.
> 
> ...


I wasn't...it was directed specifically at Dan C and Paul bickering about crap that has absolutely no bearing on this thread. Your contributions have been nothing less than stellar. =)


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Labs said:


> directed specifically at Dan C and Paul bickering about crap that has absolutely no bearing on this thread. Your contributions have been nothing less than stellar. =)


Correction for you: Paul Young doesn't *bicker*, he chimes in - and in engaging way that's most often helpful to anybody on the receiving end. Just wanted to make that distinction, apropos NAHRA or not.

MG


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

crackerd said:


> Correction for you: Paul Young doesn't *bicker*, he chimes in - and in engaging way that's most often helpful to anybody on the receiving end. Just wanted to make that distinction, apropos NAHRA or not.
> 
> MG


I will stand by my original assertion. Most instances, you are correct...just not in this one, IMHO.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

IowaBayDog said:


> I'm not sure "bragging" that a started test had a down the shore angle entry is really a way to build the program, unless you follow it up with "those judges were never allowed to judge again". Inducing bank running in started dogs is complete lunacy.


Since you weren't there Dan, I reflect for you. One of those judges happens to work with some of the best field trial pros in the business. His test was a nut buster, but yet showed that a yound dog can do those things. A dog does not one figure out the cheat from a test situation. In this case if the dog cheated the angle entry in it was a more difficult reward for it to recover the bird. A started dog or junior dog is supposed to show you the natural abilities-not trained...


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> Since you weren't there Dan, I reflect for you. One of those judges happens to work with some of the best field trial pros in the business. His test was a nut buster, but yet showed that a yound dog can do those things. A dog does not one figure out the cheat from a test situation. In this case if the dog cheated the angle entry in it was a more difficult reward for it to recover the bird. A started dog or junior dog is supposed to show you the natural abilities-not trained...


angle entry and bank cheating are natural abilities? What "natural abilities" are tested with an angle entry and a down the shore mark? Hopefully that judge has learned something working with all those pros.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

IowaBayDog said:


> angle entry and bank cheating are natural abilities? What "natural abilities" are tested with an angle entry and a down the shore mark? Hopefully that judge has learned something working with all those pros.



Actually I've got to agree that angle entries and cheaty marks are not the best way to set up young dog tests. Maybe in derby, but not in hunt test scenarios. Plenty of time for that at the higher levels. The one time I judged and we just had such little water to work with that we had to set up a bit of a cheaty mark we put a boat out from the bank into the water so if the dogs really didn't want to get wet right away they had to jump over the boat - none did and I don't think we undid anybody's training.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

http://skunkriverdogs.org/Suggested_Sites.html

An example of a Nahra test.


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## Frank Plewa (Feb 17, 2015)

I certainly did not intend to cause any arguments. My intent was to present an option to those that might be interested to participate in something a little different until the dust settles in other venues. There was no expectation that anyone would abandon what they are doing for our program as that is not fair or realistic. Our game targets the hunter although many non hunters play for various reasons. One major issue that seems to keep many away is the addition of the upland and train into Intermediate and Senior weekend tests. While not very attractive to some it is to the hunter. I could give many experiences where the skills developed helped my dogs find or recover birds. Marks and blinds are very important in NAHRA and can be very difficult but they are incorporated into as realistic a hunting scenario as the judges can present. Many times using all the bells and whistles of an actual hunt. 

Many of our judges draw scenarios from hunting experiences and hopefully reproduce scenarios that tests the skills required by dog and handler to accomplish the task. Those that hunt geese know there are a lot of skills required of our retrievers. Most of them are found in many of the games but from what I have seen, only NAHRA puts them all together in one weekend package. It has prepared my dogs for those situations and why I have stuck with it. The other games present many of those skills and many times those dogs have much greater precision and discipline particularly with marks and blinds. However, the NAHRA test adds a couple other skills and intertwines them into a hunting scenario using many tools of hunting that are not often seen elsewhere. As far as I know NAHRA is the only program in which a retriever can be released to hunt freely in an upland situation or trailing and then be required to be under complete control to perform a blind retrieve. It is not an easy thing for a dog to turn on and off. 

NAHRA is not better or worse than any other, just different. I only wanted to remind folks that if you have the time, we would love to have you.

Frank


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

limiman12 said:


> http://skunkriverdogs.org/Suggested_Sites.html
> 
> An example of a Nahra test.


Nice intermediate test and good work by the dogs that were shown. Everything a hunter needs in North America.-Paul


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

So it took me a awhile to find this and actually take the time to read through it all. Despite what you remember, what you've heard or what you think someone else said once, NAHRA is a great program with great people. I've been involved since 2000 with Leatherstocking HRA (new website went live this week http://www.leatherstockinghra.com) and not only has it given me a fair number of excellent hunting dogs, but a few titles along the way. 

Having said that, LHRA is hosting the invitational this year in Baldwinsville, NY at the 3 Rivers WMA. As chairman of the test, I am personally inviting those on the fence to come and qualify for the event. ( http://www.nahrainvitational.com/home.html ) You'll need an MHR title (5 senior passes) by June 29 to qualify for the test August 5-8th. We are really a fun loving bunch that in the end like to train dogs and go hunt. 

I will personally donate a significant item (TBD) to be used in a FREE raffle ONLY FOR NEW MEMBERS THAT QUALIFY AND RUN THE INVITATIONAL.

Hope to see you at the line.
Dave


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