# Dirt clod drill



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

The August 2012 issue of Retriever News has a nice description of the dirt clod drill. For those not familiar with the drill, Evan Graham describes it in the ASK THE PRO column. He describes the original drill as well as his modification. In his modification, he throws a bird instead of a dirt clod and removes it with a line that has been tied to it. FWIW, I like the drill and this article has a good description.


----------



## Gunner's Dad (Jul 18, 2012)

For those of us who did not read that article could you explain a little further what it is.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

First off, the article says "Not for all dogs, or all occasions". Two gunners are set up to provide double marks arranged in such a way as to provide suction away from the go bird. The bird boy throws a dirt clod instead of a bird. This is done so that when the dog gets to the AOF, there is no bird and the dog quits the hunt because it found no mark. When the dog leaves the AOF, the bird boy sneaks a bird into the AOF, handler makes a correction and directs the dog back into the fall area to continue hunting. The dog finds the bird and gets to retrieve it.

I hope that I did a good job describing this.


----------



## verne socks (Feb 11, 2010)

Not sure why you would really need this drill........seems like there are lots of other ways to teach the lesson.....seems like you are setting your dog up for failure which I don't really like. This drill has been around a long time but I have never personally used it....right or wrong!


----------



## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

Like Verne said, this is simply bad training in that it sets a dog up for failure and creates uncertainty and a lack of confidence. I read about this drill back in the 1990's in the Dobbs' Tri-tronics training book and I've yet to see any real logic behind it. Tossing another bumper or bird for the dog or salting the area will do a far better job of getting a dog to focus on and stay in the AOF.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Well it seems to me that it teaches perseverance. By keeping in the AOF, the dog will find a bird and will therefore be successful. I think that it builds confidence rather than confusion.---"I saw the bird fall here, it should be here. I will continue to hunt this area until I find it." The dog is reinforced for his perseverance in hunting the area.

Evan happens to address the dog that won't leave the area. He sneaks in a bird so that the dog does find it. He also does say that it is not for every dog. 

I realize that there are many ways to accomplish this. Some dogs may not need this. I know my dog doesn't need this but I see plenty of dogs that can benefit by this drill.

Even if you don't like the drill, Evan does give a good description of the drill.


----------



## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

The drill is designed for chronic "switchers," and by design catches the dog in " the act."


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Yes. The dog switches because he has not found the bird right away and goes to the memory bird.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

verne socks said:


> Not sure why you would really need this drill........seems like there are lots of other ways to teach the lesson...!


Such as....?


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

wonder if I am the only one to have the dog fetch up the original tossed dirt clod?
folk I know used it, I have not in ages.


----------



## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> Well it seems to me that it teaches perseverance. By keeping in the AOF, the dog will find a bird and will therefore be successful. I think that it builds confidence rather than confusion.---"I saw the bird fall here, it should be here. I will continue to hunt this area until I find it." The dog is reinforced for his perseverance in hunting the area.
> 
> Evan happens to address the dog that won't leave the area. He sneaks in a bird so that the dog does find it. He also does say that it is not for every dog.
> 
> ...


Exactly how does it teach perseverance? If anything, it actually encourages switching. The dog gets to where he knows something went down yet nothing is there when he arrives. There's not even a scent trail so a dog cannot even use his natural senses once he arrives. He has now "failed" and is confused because he can neither see nor smell the thing he is sure he saw fall so he is actually encouraged through the design of the drill to start leaving the AOF so how is that a good thing? It's also a great way to get a young dog to pop on marks. By contrast, tossing another bumper or bird or simply giving a "Hey, hey!" is far more effective in teaching young dogs to get to or get back into the AOF where there will be scent to help keep him in the area. To me, the dirt clod drill is akin to putting a piece of plexiglass on top of a basketball hoop and removing it after the kid has "missed" shot after shot. Neither teaches through success or builds confidence. That the highly successful field trial trainers never mention use of the dirt clod drill pretty much says it all.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

gdgnyc said:


> ........ In his modification, he throws a bird instead of a dirt clod and removes it with a line that has been tied to it. FWIW, I like the drill............


A simple note of caution for my NAHRA buddies considering this. As WE train for the trail portion of our tests by dragging a duck on a rope. Doing this as just mentioned MAY cause your dog to follow its nose out of your area of fall. Instead of endeavoring to persevere as you hoped. And it will do so thinking it is being a good dog and doing what you taught it. Just something to ruminate on. Don’t set your dog up to fail, by thinking it is being good.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

J. Walker

This drill is obviously not for you or your dog. Anyone training a dog must have faith in their techniques and apparently you have other drills that you prefer. Good luck.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> A simple note of caution for my NAHRA buddies considering this. As WE train for the trail portion of our tests by dragging a duck on a rope. Doing this as just mentioned MAY cause your dog to follow its nose out of your area of fall. Instead of endeavoring to persevere as you hoped. And it will do so thinking it is being a good dog and doing what you taught it. Just something to ruminate on. Don’t set your dog up to fail, by thinking it is being good.


I happen to agree with you on the trailing portion but have already worked out a model in my mind as to how to how to overcome this and I am 100% sure that it will work. I will share this only with my best buddies.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

J. Walker said:


> Exactly how does it teach perseverance? If anything, it actually encourages switching. The dog gets to where he knows something went down yet nothing is there when he arrives. There's not even a scent trail so a dog cannot even use his natural senses once he arrives. He has now "failed" and is confused because he can neither see nor smell the thing he is sure he saw fall so he is actually encouraged through the design of the drill to start leaving the AOF so how is that a good thing? It's also a great way to get a young dog to pop on marks. By contrast, tossing another bumper or bird or simply giving a "Hey, hey!" is far more effective in teaching young dogs to get to or get back into the AOF where there will be scent to help keep him in the area. To me, the dirt clod drill is akin to putting a piece of plexiglass on top of a basketball hoop and removing it after the kid has "missed" shot after shot. Neither teaches through success or builds confidence. That the highly successful field trial trainers never mention use of the dirt clod drill pretty much says it all.


I have never used the dirt clod drill with any of my dogs. I have spoken and probably posted in the past, stuff like the above about this drill.

I'm trying harder these days to have a more open mind. I don't think that dog training is "always" black and white. 

Just because the top FT pros don't talk about this drill, or some variant, doesn't mean that they haven't or wouldn't ever use it for the right situation.

Like Ken wrote, I'd often wondered if the dog would pick up the clod or the patty. With the Evan variation, I'd think some dogs will hit the fall area and trail the duck back to the hidden birdboy. I'd think it maybe preferable to hide the birdboy downwind of the mark area and have him drag a plastic bumper or something else as scentless as possible...then be ready to toss a duck at the right time.

Again, I've never used the drill. But I'm not going to say that I never will or would.

Chris


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Chris Atkinson

Considering the visual acuity of the dog is limited, you don't have to throw a real duck.for the dog to THINK it's a duck. You and I have hit on the same solution. 

Oh well, you know what they say about great minds...............


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> .....Like Ken wrote, I'd often wondered if the dog would pick up the clod or the patty. With the Evan variation, I'd think some dogs will hit the fall area and trail the duck back to the hidden birdboy.......
> Chris


That day, the tosser used very hard very dry dairy cow poop. It was a for real “cow chip drill” My old girl not only nailed the mark and retrieved it. She delivered to hand with thumping happy tail and a Roo Roo. I am sure she was thinking “This is great, first a live duck and now Crap! I am in Heaven!”


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> With the Evan variation, I'd think some dogs will hit the fall area and trail the duck back to the hidden birdboy.
> 
> Chris


As this variation is one used only on occasion, it's not one used all the time. But having used it fairly often for different dogs over nearly 3 decades I have yet to see even one dog scent track toward the gun. The overwhelming percentage of dogs we've run on this drill spent so little time in the fall area that hunting it diligently enough to pick up a scent trail would have been a near miracle.

Like virtually any other drill or practice, dirt clod drills can be very helpful, but are not the only approach to any specific problem. I'm open minded toward hearing any other ideas, as always.

Evan


----------



## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

The dirt clod drill is not for every dog, (i'm assuming everyone knows it's for competition dogs only, not gun dogs) but do not undestimate its effectiveness for dogs with cetain cronic problelms. i can safely say that almost all of the field champions in made had some form of this drill. For me, it was especially effective for the check down bird/selection bird. However, it will dramatilcally effect your dogs marking for a period of time, don't try it during the trial season and its best done with an experienced trainer on hand. As Chris said, KEEP AND OPEN MIND, fellow trainers, a closed mind had only one path to follow.
have fun training
GG


----------



## TollerLover (Aug 25, 2008)

LOHRC will be training with Dennis next Sunday and I had asked for this drill to be demonstrated (before this thread started). So, we will see....


----------



## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

GG said:


> The dirt clod drill is not for every dog, (i'm assuming everyone knows it's for competition dogs only, not gun dogs) but do not undestimate its effectiveness for dogs with cetain cronic problelms. i can safely say that almost all of the field champions in made had some form of this drill. For me, it was especially effective for the check down bird/selection bird. However, it will dramatilcally effect your dogs marking for a period of time, don't try it during the trial season and its best done with an experienced trainer on hand. As Chris said, KEEP AND OPEN MIND, fellow trainers, a closed mind had only one path to follow.
> have fun training
> GG


Great explanation! I see it's value for teaching the tight, short check down retired with the long up gun flier, and of course chronic switchers. Not surprising at all that almost all the field champions you made had some form of this drill.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

If the training and education of the dog is thorough from ground up 95% of dogs will never need this drill. I have used it for dogs with a problem, but keep in mind fixing a problem often creates new ones. Unlike Evan, I have seen people do this drill, for no apparent reason I may add, and watched many dogs head to the holding blind. I have seen this drill creat unnecessary pressure in the field, resulting in popping, no confidence, no go, bugging. 

Drills have their place, but cannot make up for real training.

/paul


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Dang Evan, three decades. You must be as old as dirt.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Dang Evan, three decades. You must be as old as dirt.


Wayne,

When I was a kid dirt had a patent pending! 


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I have seen this drill creat unnecessary pressure in the field, resulting in popping, no confidence, no go, bugging.
> 
> Drills have their place, but cannot make up for real training.
> 
> /paul


I've seen poor trainers do the same thing with other training drills and techniques. Poor training is poor training, and a poor trainer tends to get poor results. Until I spent a summer at Carr's I had never met a trainer who used more drills. Looked like real training to me. His work produced a ton of champions, and many fine trainers who use his drills and ideas yet today. Like I said before, it's not a panacea. But it can be just the right medicine for the right dog at the right time. That can be said for a number of drills and practices.

Evan


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

gdgnyc said:


> .... He describes the original drill as well as his modification.....


who came up with the original?


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Dang Evan, three decades. You must be as old as dirt.


this is very funny, 
as he is 6 years younger than you are!


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I believe that there is no such thing as bad or poor training. I do believe though it has to do with being incompetent. Some folks have grown out of it and some just stay the same and not know any better.
Dogs don’t know the difference, because their purpose is to please.
JMO


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

TollerLover said:


> LOHRC will be training with Dennis next Sunday and I had asked for this drill to be demonstrated (before this thread started). So, we will see....


AH HAH!

You asked about about how to keep a tight hunt in the area. AND yes this is what I use the Dirt Clod drill for. I do not use it for an anti-switch drill. That is learned a different way. 

The way I use it the dog IS set up for success and rewarded for perserverance. I have described this difference before on RTF and in a Retrievers ONLINE articles and will do next weekend in the training session with LOHRC. 

I don't usually use it with a dog until I see it is a problem but it could be for any dog unlike the "other way" of using the dirt clod drill.

Cheers


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Wayne,
> 
> When I was a kid dirt had a patent pending!  I've seen poor trainers do the same thing with other training drills and techniques. Poor training is poor training, and a poor trainer tends to get poor results. Until I spent a summer at Carr's I had never met a trainer who used more drills. Looked like real training to me. His work produced a ton of champions, and many fine trainers who use his drills and ideas yet today. Like I said before, it's not a panacea. But it can be just the right medicine for the right dog at the right time. That can be said for a number of drills and practices.
> 
> Evan


Thats why you make videos and I train dogs. Noobs read an article, or watch a video and go repeat it day after day. That's not dog training. If a dog is brought up right, this particular drill is not a daily occurrence. In fact may never be needed at all. How many threads are there about people doing t work for months? Pattern field for months? Why? 

Well rounded training incorporating factors is not drill work ,although you could call it that if you want. The concepts or factors tought in yard work or drills, only mean something when put into practical application in the field. It's those situations where dogs excel and grow. 

/paul


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

*dirt cod*



Ken Bora said:


> wonder if I am the only one to have the dog fetch up the original tossed dirt clod?
> folk I know used it, I have not in ages.


This is why Rex used a cow patty instead of a clod....the patty would break apart and thus none thing to retrieve ....


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Thats why you make videos and I train dogs.


Your information is lacking accuracy. But what's new. Training (again) in the morning regards. Who knows; may even shoot some video of it for you to be offended by.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> How many threads are there about people doing t work for months? Pattern field for months? Why?


Gosh, maybe because they're "noobs", and don't have 20 years of experience to guide them, so they're learning as they go. Just a guess.

Evan


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

This was not intended to be a drill for every dog ...It was designed for the chronic switcher ....It developed a commitment to stay in the area they believed the bird to be and hunt until they found something ....I learned the drill using a back pile of bumpers and a gunner throwing a cow pie or dirt clod...This was developed to be a problem solver drill not a everyday teaching type drill...It seems the original use has evolved into something different than intended...Part of the so called Carr system was to develop perfection and not except shoddy work ....Teach then aggravate ...In other words , make it more difficult to do the next time....It seems that we are trying to change the intended use also ...we are looking for the quick fix with as little time spent on it as possible....Steve S 

Some times it takes a picture or video now days to convey the message....OR .. a trip to the trainer for a hands on ....better yet....


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

steve schreiner said:


> This is why Rex used a cow patty instead of a clod....the patty would break apart and thus none thing to retrieve ....


Your cow pattys and dirt clods are different than mine apparently


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ken, I hope the cow patties have had ample time to dry out before you try to pick them up.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Your information is lacking accuracy. But what's new. Training (again) in the morning regards. Who knows; may even shoot some video of it for you to be offended by.
> 
> Gosh, maybe because they're "noobs", and don't have 20 years of experience to guide them, so they're learning as they go. Just a guess.
> 
> Evan


Please explain what I posted regarding this training as lacking accuracy. As well, please explain to me where I'm inaccurate in stating you make video's and I don't. If you want to throw out the "But what's new" comment I think you owe an explanation. As for noobs, ya there are a ton of noobs out there watching video's thinking that's all it takes to train a dog. Knowing how to do a drill is one thing, knowing when to use the drill is completely different. 

/Paul


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Please explain what I posted regarding this training as lacking accuracy. As well, please explain to me where I'm inaccurate in stating you make video's and I don't.


Paul,

You've provided a ready example in your own question. You didn't say "you make video's and I don't". The distinctly different and inaccurate statement was...


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Thats why you make videos and I train dogs.


The thing is I don't mind anyone saying I make videos because I do, and i'm proud of my work. But that does not in any way translate into my not training dogs, which I do regularly. I train and I coach, and I teach.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> If you want to throw out the "But what's new" comment I think you owe an explanation.


The "But what's new" comment means you've made this false assertion many times before, as if to state that I'm not a trainer, but rather only someone who sells videos, which is patently false.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> As for noobs, ya there are a ton of noobs out there watching video's thinking that's all it takes to train a dog.


I don't know that "a ton" of them do, as that's not anything close to a real number or percentage. But I believe when someone is new to retriever training they're apt to cling to whatever information they have until they manage to get some experience under their belts. I also think that makes sense, as opposed to pretending to know it all with no baseline of experience.


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Knowing how to do a drill is one thing, knowing when to use the drill is completely different.


I agree. But I think we see drills a bit differently. I don't assert that these dogs are or should be taken from zero to finished via drills. Drills are largely for skill acquisition. Most of them simply provide a developing dog with many opportunities to form habitual behaviors through repetition. 

Once the dog has fundamental skills they must take them to the field and learn to transition from that basically-trained state toward a fully-trained state through cold set ups. It's not an either/or proposition as I see it. However, it would be wholly unfair to take a pup out and expect them to succeed at multiple marks and/or blinds with no fundamental skills. Drill for skill. Expose to cold fieldwork for expertise. That is and has been my consistent message.

Evan


----------



## cjr (Oct 21, 2010)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> AH HAH!
> 
> You asked about about how to keep a tight hunt in the area. AND yes this is what I use the Dirt Clod drill for. I do not use it for an anti-switch drill. That is learned a different way.
> 
> ...


Below is how I was taught to use the dirt clod drill to encourage a tight hunt. It really seems to help a dog develop perseverance in hunting the AOF. I'm a newbie so will probably hear about all the problems with this approach but used occasionally (once every 3 or 4 months) I've seen positive results.


-Scent area of fall with duck.
-Toss dirt clump into scented area.
-Send dog, dog hunts area.
-Dog expands hunt out of area, bird boy takes a few steps toward AOF and gives a "hey hey" to bring dog back to re-establish hunt
-Repeat above several times - bird boy needs to read dog and make a good judgement as to how many times this can be repeated w/o dog giving up
-The last time dog leaves AOF - drop bird into the AOF, "hey, hey", dog comes back, finds bird and is very proud of himself.

I've done this in hay fields with moderate cover and used a dug-up clump of grass with root ball. Never had the dog retrieve the clump and have actually had had hard time finding it myself.

Chris


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

cjr said:


> Below is how I was taught to use the dirt clod drill to encourage a tight hunt. It really seems to help a dog develop perseverance in hunting the AOF. I'm a newbie so will probably hear about all the problems with this approach but used occasionally (once every 3 or 4 months) I've seen positive results.
> 
> 
> -Scent area of fall with duck.
> ...


This is very different than the way Dennis described the drill in Retrievers ONLINE. To be fair, Dennis states the way he does it acknowledging others may do it differently. I learned it through reading Retrievers ONLINE and have had excellent results with that version.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Evan said:


> Paul,
> 
> You've provided a ready example in your own question. You didn't say "you make video's and I don't". The distinctly different and inaccurate statement was...The thing is I don't mind anyone saying I make videos because I do, and i'm proud of my work. But that does not in any way translate into my not training dogs, which I do regularly. I train and I coach, and I teach.The "But what's new" comment means you've made this false assertion many times before, as if to state that I'm not a trainer, but rather only someone who sells videos, which is patently false.I don't know that "a ton" of them do, as that's not anything close to a real number or percentage. But I believe when someone is new to retriever training they're apt to cling to whatever information they have until they manage to get some experience under their belts. I also think that makes sense, as opposed to pretending to know it all with no baseline of experience.I agree. But I think we see drills a bit differently. I don't assert that these dogs are or should be taken from zero to finished via drills. Drills are largely for skill acquisition. Most of them simply provide a developing dog with many opportunities to form habitual behaviors through repetition.
> 
> ...


I've never asserted you don't train dogs. Your focus though is clearly on making video's. I also don't believe you can take credit for every dog that gets a title just because someone watched your video. If getting trained and title dogs was as easy as watching a video, everyone would have titled dogs. Video's are fine for getting an overview of a procedure, but only getting in the field and working dogs will really teach you about dogs. I can't tell you how many times i've had people come train and when I ask them why they are doing something the answer is "i read about it or watched a video." The practical application for many of things read or watched is often lost. This thread regarding one drill is a great example. Look at all the variations people have about how to do the drill, and just as many about when to do the drill. There is no one single answer because we're working with a unique dog in a unique situation everytime we train. Thats why I often state you can't learn to train a dog from a video. 

/Paul


----------



## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

Come on Paul I did stay at a Holiday Inn once that should count.



Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I've never asserted you don't train dogs. Your focus though is clearly on making video's. I also don't believe you can take credit for every dog that gets a title just because someone watched your video. If getting trained and title dogs was as easy as watching a video, everyone would have titled dogs. Video's are fine for getting an overview of a procedure, but only getting in the field and working dogs will really teach you about dogs. I can't tell you how many times i've had people come train and when I ask them why they are doing something the answer is "i read about it or watched a video." The practical application for many of things read or watched is often lost. This thread regarding one drill is a great example. Look at all the variations people have about how to do the drill, and just as many about when to do the drill. There is no one single answer because we're working with a unique dog in a unique situation everytime we train. Thats why I often state you can't learn to train a dog from a video.
> 
> /Paul


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> AH HAH!
> 
> You asked about about how to keep a tight hunt in the area. AND yes this is what I use the Dirt Clod drill for. I do not use it for an anti-switch drill. That is learned a different way.
> 
> ...


This is also what I use it for. I've been working with a young chopper pup that is typically a very good marker. When he doesn't "pin" the mark though he will often hunt as big as Texas. This is a great way to keep him in in the area. Another thing we have done is to seed the area of the fall with 5 birds, utilize less cover initially and then increase cover as he demonstrates willingness to stay there and dig the birds out. I also believe handling young dogs too much on marks can lead to less confidence in the dog to stay there and dig out the bird. The value of having good gun station help with dogs that have this tendency in my opinion can't be emphasized enough. 

/Paul


----------



## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

How about a little input on this. We have been hand throwing bumpers past couple weekends and throwing them with long throws, the dogs have been having big hunts. They are mostly running to where a winger would throw to. Is this good or bad for marking?


----------



## Buster Brown (Oct 29, 2007)

Agreed. Sounds like it would actually make a dog want to hunt intead of trust his eyes and marking. It may even cause a poping problem due to uncertainty in a really young dog.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Brad said:


> How about a little input on this. We have been hand throwing bumpers past couple weekends and throwing them with long throws, the dogs have been having big hunts. They are mostly running to where a winger would throw to. Is this good or bad for marking?


Attended a Lardy advanced workshop with my dog and the first mark we ran was a single (with three gunners out) at about 125 yards. The BB threw a 3" black bumper about 40 yards. Several dogs, including mine, hunted their guts out in the AOF before leaving to hunt elsewhere. The BB helped the dogs get to the AOF and they found the bumper.

I'll run marks with very long throws occasionally (sometimes use a Thunder 500). Generally not an issue as the dogs that hunt the typical spot usually are able to work it out and find the bumper.


----------



## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I would disagree with this statement. What most fail to realize is this is a very difficult drill to execute correctly. And besides that it is very mentally challenging for dogs. You are sending dogs to retrieve something that is not there, would not call that fair.



Evan said:


> If that were the result it would be poor execution that caused it, not the drill.
> 
> Evan


----------



## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

dexdoolittle said:


> I would disagree with this statement. What most fail to realize is this is a very difficult drill to execute correctly. And besides that it is very mentally challenging for dogs. You are sending dogs to retrieve something that is not there, would not call that fair.


I'm going to have to agree with Dex on this. I've never used it. Can't say that I never would (we all know never say never when it comes to dogs ;-)), but haven't to date.

Evan, when were you at Rex's? I was at the surprise birthday party for Billy on Saturday and Kirk Naisbitt presented Billy with the most coveted ORIGINALS of all of Rex's notes. I can't wait to have time to look through them. Your name will be in there, right?


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

*d/c drill*



dexdoolittle said:


> I would disagree with this statement. What most fail to realize is this is a very difficult drill to execute correctly. And besides that it is very mentally challenging for dogs. You are sending dogs to retrieve something that is not there, would not call that fair.



I agree this can be a mental challenging drill for some dogs...The issue of being fair is up for debate I believe ...If the area is scented and an object thrown that the dog sees ,shouldn't the dog believe there is an object to be retrieved and thus stay in the area until it finds it...? In hunting we have ducks that dive and stay under for some time ....The dog must ( should ) stay there until the duck surfaces or given some other direction by the handler....I think the use of it for teaching young dogs to stay in the are and hunt can be a very dangerous thing... There are other ways to teach young dogs...I believe the original intent of it being a tool ( drill ) to stop the chronic switcher is far less damaging to the dog.... Age, maturity and far more training equips the dog for the drill.... Steve S


----------



## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't think it is a fair assesment to compare a real live hunting situation with a training drill. I would agree with the statement that they should stay in the area and hunt but for how long with no success??? And this is the problem I have with this drill, every dogs hunt desire is different. Dogs with average perserverance will tend to get tight and nervous after hunting with no success in training. Then you have to rely on an educated Bird Boy for help. Which will also create bad habits.. ie.. dogs relying on help. Dogs sense training and hunting as two separate beast. Hope this makes sense, hard to put into words. Only used 1 time for a chronic switcher and did not care for it.




steve schreiner said:


> I agree this can be a mental challenging drill for some dogs...The issue of being fair is up for debate I believe ...If the area is scented and an object thrown that the dog sees ,shouldn't the dog believe there is an object to be retrieved and thus stay in the area until it finds it...? In hunting we have ducks that dive and stay under for some time ....The dog must ( should ) stay there until the duck surfaces or given some other direction by the handler....I think the use of it for teaching young dogs to stay in the are and hunt can be a very dangerous thing... There are other ways to teach young dogs...I believe the original intent of it being a tool ( drill ) to stop the chronic switcher is far less damaging to the dog.... Age, maturity and far more training equips the dog for the drill.... Steve S


----------



## Guest (Aug 7, 2012)

Personally, I don't even do doubles with dogs until they are handling. We are doing complex enough stuff by that time that I want to be able to put a whistle on a dog to teach them where I'd like them to go.


----------



## honkin (May 5, 2006)

Who caught Ken's Outlaw Josey Wales quote on the second page?


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

dexdoolittle said:


> I don't think it is a fair assesment to compare a real live hunting situation with a training drill. I would agree with the statement that they should stay in the area and hunt but for how long with no success??? And this is the problem I have with this drill, every dogs hunt desire is different. Dogs with average perserverance will tend to get tight and nervous after hunting with no success in training. Then you have to rely on an educated Bird Boy for help. Which will also create bad habits.. ie.. dogs relying on help. Dogs sense training and hunting as two separate beast. Hope this makes sense, hard to put into words. Only used 1 time for a chronic switcher and did not care for it.


I agree we can't compare hunting to training ...but....we train for hunting ....or trialing ,testing what ever....Your comment about each dogs perseverance is different ( in the beginning ) and this is where good help ( well trained ) comes in ....communication is paramount... The handler must determine when the dog has had enough hunt time ...some very little and as they progress the time gets longer.... In the end the trainer determines what is long enough ...2 min 5 min or 20 min ...It is up to the trainer to decide what he or she wants...Bird persons ( to be politically correct) are no better than the person that trained them ...just like the trainer ...some better than others.... I agree helping dogs create a dependency on it ..handler or bird thrower...Not ever drill fits every trainer...Bill's plan is different than Lardy's ( unless he changed ) but both get results....I prefer DL's plan for teaching dogs to handle over the T and TT ....Take care ..hope things are going good in Texas...Steve S


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm not really following this thread - but I will say I've never used this drill and I don't see when I ever would (won't say never, but...) 

A few years ago I was having issues with Bullet staying in the AOF - he would get there and if he didn't step on it, his hunts would get bigger and bigger, he would go set up camp behind the guns, etc. Drove me insane especially given he was an AA dog and I knew he could mark, he just got unbalanced some where and forgot how to stay in an AOF and put on a smart hunt. As I was storming off the line in an Open, ready to string Bullet up for being an idiot once again, Bill Schrader noticed my frustration - we had a long conversation about how to correct the issue. He gave me a drill (similar to a Y drill, but broken down even further) I ran it with Bullet - no trick, the bird was thrown all he had to do was mark it....first time I ran it he only got the one mark because he hunted so long that anything else would of killed him. We repeated this drill for over a week, day two he managed to get two marks, by the end of the week I could throw a bird in almost any AOF you can think of (long, angle back; short and in; long and flat) and he would go to that area and work it out....he nailed some, hunted others, but he stopped the stupid run around like an idiot, go camp on the back side cause I can't find it the bird bull crap! 

The drill taught him to pay attention to the mark, to pay attention to how the bird was thrown in relationship to the gunner and how to systematically hunt if he didn't come up with it right away...if anyone wants the drill I'll gladly post it. 

FOM

Edit - I'll have to email it, it is a power point presentation if anyone wants it.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Personally, I don't even do doubles with dogs until they are handling. We are doing complex enough stuff by that time that I want to be able to put a whistle on a dog to teach them where I'd like them to go.


Very good advice...don't do doubles until they will handle.... 
This is too old school though ...Now it is get them doing doubles by 6mth and handling a week later...The dogs don't even have a chance to grow up ..just like most kids of today ...push push push .....Steve S


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I personally love dirt clod drill. I originally got if from Online over 15 years ago. Other trainers have taught me modifications to the drill and I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it. The drill that lainee mentions I've used quite a bit also and like that very much.

So do you really think the dog thinks, that you've "lied" to them??? Come on....

Anthropomorphizing again I see....

Angie


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

FOM said:


> I'm not really following this thread - but I will say I've never used this drill and I don't see when I ever would (won't say never, but...)
> 
> A few years ago I was having issues with Bullet staying in the AOF - he would get there and if he didn't step on it, his hunts would get bigger and bigger, he would go set up camp behind the guns, etc. Drove me insane especially given he was an AA dog and I knew he could mark, he just got unbalanced some where and forgot how to stay in an AOF and put on a smart hunt. As I was storming off the line in an Open, ready to string Bullet up for being an idiot once again, Bill Schrader noticed my frustration - we had a long conversation about how to correct the issue. He gave me a drill (similar to a Y drill, but broken down even further) I ran it with Bullet - no trick, the bird was thrown all he had to do was mark it....first time I ran it he only got the one mark because he hunted so long that anything else would of killed him. We repeated this drill for over a week, day two he managed to get two marks, by the end of the week I could throw a bird in almost any AOF you can think of (long, angle back; short and in; long and flat) and he would go to that area and work it out....he nailed some, hunted others, but he stopped the stupid run around like an idiot, go camp on the back side cause I can't find it the bird bull crap!
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how you could break down a y-drill any further so I'd definitely be interested in seeing the drill.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

honkin said:


> Who caught Ken's Outlaw Josey Wales quote on the second page?


I did. I loved it when I heard it.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I believe Dobbs also uses this drill....
http://dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rj26.html


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

BJGatley said:


> I believe Dobbs also uses this drill....
> http://dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rj26.html


Jim has changed so much in his program since some of his "stuff" has been published it is amazing. 

I believe he even uses indirect pressure rather than burning dogs running along the shore now.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Melanie Foster said:


> .
> 
> Evan, when were you at Rex's? I was at the surprise birthday party for Billy on Saturday and Kirk Naisbitt presented Billy with the most coveted ORIGINALS of all of Rex's notes. I can't wait to have time to look through them. Your name will be in there, right?


Sometimes silence can really be deafening!!


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Sometimes silence can really be deafening!!


Been noticed by many


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Sometimes silence can really be deafening!!


Apparently alcohol affects your memory as well as your hearing. We had this discussion here 3 years ago. 1986, and I have no idea if I'm in his notes. He is in mine. Lose lots of sleep over it for me. Have a nice hangover. Good luck with your deafness.

Evan


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

Evan said:


> Apparently alcohol affects your memory as well as your hearing. We had this discussion here 3 years ago. 1986, and I have no idea if I'm in his notes. He is in mine. Lose lots of sleep over it for me. Have a nice hangover. Good luck with your deafness.
> 
> Evan


Only a true professional would respond...well...so professionally. Or not.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Only a true professional would respond...well...so professionally. Or not.


There's a drill for that!


----------



## Guest (Aug 8, 2012)

Chris, he should be banned because clearly he is not being a peanut. Not to mention he is walking on thin ice for defamation of character. Just sayin.'


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Thread locked.

Use the resource right. Don't abuse it.

If anyone who has abused the resource wants to PM me and advise how they'll use the resource differently going forward, please do. I would appreciate the acknowledgement and reassurance. (and then some follow-through would be nice too)

Thanks,

Chris


----------

