# hunt test UKC or AKC



## kurt a (Feb 25, 2008)

i was just wondering about what people like and dislike about UKC and AKC, i am in an area where ukc is not available so i don't know anything about it.


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## kurt a (Feb 25, 2008)

i thing i heard is that ukc hunt tests are more realistic and involved


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## blakegober (Apr 16, 2008)

What is the record for # of replies to a post on here? I think this one may give it a run for the money!


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## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

Both are fun. IMHO AKC is harder, but UKC is more hunting realistic. Do both if you can.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

I can't afford the wardrobe for UKC.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I like them both. With UKC I think that swinging an actual 870 helps the dog mark off the gun better. This is a trait that is a must in a hunting dog. In my opinion the HRC tests are more realistic "hunting tests".

The AKC hunt tests tend to throw more technical marks and blinds. I like these because I can see the concepts that are in the test. They give me a better idea of where my dog is in training.

This is the classic Ford vs. Chevy argument. Everyone has their own favorite and no amount of factual evidence will change their opinion. I started hunt tests with the HRC so that is where my loyalties lie but AKC tests are a lot of fun.
Mark L.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

They're both good for you and your dog. None are as good as real hunting, but they will help you develop a better hunting dog.

Personally I don't find the exaggerated "swing to the gun" stuff helpful in training a hunting dog and just train the classic "push-pull." I like shooting the primer loads in HRC tests for fun and excietment.

You should also look into NAHRA tests if there's one nearby.

http://www.nahranews.org/

And you should also go to a licensed field trial to see the incredible levels those dogs and trainers achieve in that specialized game.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Brad B said:


> I can't afford the wardrobe for UKC.


You must not hunt then.

Both are fun and while I run HRC almost exclusively it's more due to time and cost, and the social aspects present at an HRC test which are totally lacking at an AKC test. At an HRC test we get together and have a cook out while the dogs are being run, the wives get a chance to lounge around and relax, and if there are kids present, they get a chance to run a dog at a junior handler event. 

I've run as many as 18 tests a year (36 entries) so time is very limited. As far as degree of difficulty between the two, it's a toss up at Started/Junior and Finished/Master. Master will have one more series and more blinds, but on the other hand Finished could have long marks which are not punctuated by a duck call and loud blank shot in the field. The Finished dog has to mark off the gun and turn with the gun with little to no prompting from the field. 

I will say that Senior is much harder than Seasoned though.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

blakegober said:


> What is the record for # of replies to a post on here? I think this one may give it a run for the money!


Only about 1300 more posts to go.


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

justbehindit said:


> As far as degree of difficulty between the two, it's a toss up at Started/Junior and Finished/Master. Master will have one more series and more blinds, but on the other hand Finished could have long marks which are not punctuated by a duck call and loud blank shot in the field.


I have never seen a Finished test with longer marks than a typical MH test. I do like the UKC though because of the social aspect and the fact that you can run 2 tests in a weekend. On the other hand, I think MH tests are a good bit tougher because of more series, more marks, more blinds, and longer marks. Both have their place and I participate in both, just think AKC HTs are considerably more difficult.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

justbehindit said:


> You must not hunt then.


You wear the same outfit in the midwest in July and December - they find your body one place or the other... 90 degrees and humid or 9 degrees and windy...


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

I would run what is available to you. If you think about it, most people are more likely to get involved and be active in a club that is near and convenient for them. Even if you preferred a HRC club if it is too inconvenient you may find your self not being as involved as you intended.

I am just getting back in to the games this year. I plan on running both, my home club is HRC, and so far is my preference. I have only run one AKC test. I will say there is a definitely more of a family feeling at the few HRC tests that I have been to.

You can have fun doing either or both.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I have seen many a LONG series of finished marks, but they are never nearly as TIGHT as you will see in master. YMMV. We run both. HRC is more fun, AKC is generally more technical (esp SH vs. seasoned) but that, in itself, makes the tests fun, if you know what I mean.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I have run both. Seasoned test had less concept and was straight forward. Many familiar faces at the UKC and the AKC test in my area. 

More realistic? I don't think so. Just because you are holding a pop gun some people feel that way. The gunners stations are closer and exactly the same as an AKC station. The two UKC events I entered were fun and laid back. AKC is fun and just as laid back. 

If, you go there with a laid back attitude. Have fun, laugh alot, don't get red faced at your dog or anyone else and every will always have a good time. Some people just aren't able to have fun, avoid them. I don't think anyone has seen me at an AKC hunt test without a smile on my face or letting out a few laughs....I take it seriously although, I still have a great time no matter where I am or who is around me...Just my two-PG


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Are there many clubs that are affiliated with both organizations and run both types of tests?


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## kurt a (Feb 25, 2008)

some guys talked about the big difference about seasond and seinor saying seasond is easir but now talk about the difference between senior and master to me not a whole lot except 1 more mark (usually)so why not just go for master a little longer blinds and marks but as far as training not whole difference, i think the gap should be further apart or maybe i just opened a can of worms?


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

AKC is harder. UKC more realistic. But in the name of realism this happens: One UKC test, they had two marks, one 20 yards behind the other and on the same line and the blind was on the same line too (seasoned). The other, a UKC committee member tried to tell the judges that the test was not appropriate for the level. It still got run... In general I like AKC. Usually the judges won't ruin your training.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I run and love them both. They are different and I appreciate the differences. I like running Finished tests and I like running Master tests. The atmosphere is usually very different, but that's OK with me. 
I agree with what's been said about Senior usually being significantly more challenging than Seasoned, but I disagree that there isn't much difference between Senior and Master. In my neck of the woods, the Master tests we see are usually very challenging and a significant step in difficulty above the average Senior test (or the average Finished test, for that matter). It may be different in other parts of the country.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Does it really matter? What I mean is that if you are in an area where AKC is availiable then its much more economical to run AKC. I'm in the same boat, I can run over a dozen AKC H/Ts and still sleep in my own bed each nite, the nearest UKC is about 5 hrs away. Lots of travel is not only expensive, but it cuts down on (unless you are rolling in $$$) the number of events you can run.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Ironman said:


> Are there many clubs that are affiliated with both organizations and run both types of tests?


One time or another our club has been affiliated with NAHRA, AKC (for HTs only), and HRC. Currently, we do monthly informals, one AKC/HT, and one licensed NAHRA per year.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Ah, this is a fun debate! I have it all the time since I train often with folks who are HRC evangelists. I am a member of a HRC club and an AKC club. I help out with both tests, but only run and judge AKC these days. Even though I started out with NAHRA, so I get the 'realistic' ideal, I prefer AKC tests.

My personal opinion is that both games are fun, there are good folks and bad ones at both and both do a fine job of showing off good or bad work. I just find HRC a little 'gimmicky' and the attitude that we are like hunting and AKC is like field trials off-putting. I don't find the same denigration of HRC at AKC tests.

A dog that can do the work at any of the games is going to be a good hunting dog, but it isn't hunting, no matter what you wear or whether you sit on a bucket. I would just as soon as line the dog up at the line and let him do his thing. But that is my opinion. In the end, I would run whatever had the most tests the closest, but I have the luxury of a choice where I live.


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

As has been said 100 times before and will be said 100 posts after me....
UKC/HRC more hunting related and realistic.
AKC more technical

Both are enjoyable on their own merits.
UKC/HRC has more of a family atmosphere due to the banquet/raffle that is typical at their events and the congratulatory bath for titling a dog...


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## Richard Finch (Jul 26, 2006)

Throwing in my 2 cents for the UKC. Although the AKC events I have run have been enjoyable.




Richard


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

brandywinelabs said:


> AKC is harder. UKC more realistic. But in the name of realism this happens: One UKC test, they had two marks, one 20 yards behind the other and on the same line and the blind was on the same line too (seasoned). The other, a UKC committee member tried to tell the judges that the test was not appropriate for the level. It still got run... In general I like AKC. Usually the judges won't ruin your training.


That was an illegal Seasoned Test.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

All I know is that if a Field Rep told me that a test was not appropriate for the level, I would change it and argue my point later. No time to get into 'turf wars" at a Hunt.

Are any UKC shooting flyers?


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## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

My club, Tejas HRC (Houston) puts on both HRC and AKC tests.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I have more fun at a HRC test most of the time but have a lot of fun at AKC test also. 



> In general I like AKC. Usually the judges won't ruin your training.


I like to know how an AKC judge can set up a test that doesn't miss up your training but a HRC judge will. Just Curious.

You can't argue that a finished test is as hard as a Master test because of having 3 series. The only thing harder in HRC is the dog is usually fired up with the gun going off at the line.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

chopper.rookie said:


> i was just wondering about what people like and dislike about UKC and AKC, *i am in an area where ukc is not available* so i don't know anything about it.


You planning on moving or just making conversation. HPW


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Steve Hester said:


> That was an illegal Seasoned Test.


No doubt. By the way, the other seasoned test, the one the field rep said should be changed, two dogs passed my 10.5 yr old with MH passes (had to quit before she got ther title due to finances) and the reps.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> All I know is that if a Field Rep told me that a test was not appropriate for the level, I would change it and argue my point later. No time to get into 'turf wars" at a Hunt.
> 
> Are any UKC shooting flyers?


Call me an allhose, but I would hand the sumbit the clipboard and go drink adult beverages. 

You can tell me what OR how but not both regards


Bubba


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## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

As a family guy... I really like the UKC events. It's a nice atmosphere and my wife and kids have spent all day with me and really had good experiences. The AKC tests that I have watched seem to have been a little bit more boring for my girls. If you have obligations that only give you 1 day in a weekend to run, You can still do an UKC trial. 

By the way... If you really want to know how all this stuff works... come volunteer to help marshal or throw birds at a test. I've done this myself and cannot stress how much this has helped me out. Despite some grumblings on some forums after a bad weekend, I really do believe that most of the time that the judges really want you to succeed.

You can spend as much or a little time and money on this as you choose... it's all good, just be patient.


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## kurt a (Feb 25, 2008)

the reason i brought this up is because we have started a new retriever club in utah www.utahretrievers.com and were not akc or ukc so i wanted to find out what our options are. keep this going, nery good info!


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

chopper.rookie said:


> the reason i brought this up is because we have started a new retriever club in utah www.utahretrievers.com and were not akc or ukc so i wanted to find out what our options are. keep this going, nery good info!


Good luck with your club. I suspect it's a lot of hard work getting one going. I'm fortunate enough to have joined one that is well established.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

Brad B said:


> I can't afford the wardrobe for UKC.


You got that right.

Eric W.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

If you can't afford a camo shirt, how are you paying the entry fees... or better yet feeding your dog?


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

Camo shirt, camo hat, camo pants, camo shoes.....I don't have to wear all that to shoot some ducks in a blind.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

$5.00 tub of camo body paint!!,,and a $3.00Walmart Camo thong!
Grand Total

8 bucks!!


Gooser


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> $5.00 tub of camo body paint!!,,and a $3.00Walmart Camo thong!
> Grand Total
> 
> 8 bucks!!
> ...


You constantly have me trying to poke out my minds eye.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

Don't tempt me  I am kin to Sasquatch, I am the minature version.


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## Scott H (Dec 31, 2007)

$5.00 tub of camo body paint!!,,and a $3.00Walmart Camo thong!
Grand Total

8 bucks!!

I think I saw you run once!


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

If UKC is not in your area - look for a NAHRA program


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

do both events, its worth it. some folks will only do one or the other, and some do both. though i prefer HRC for holding and shooting the gun (they still do that, right?)

i run HRC events in blue jeans, old sneakers, and a camo t-shirt - legitimate hunting clothes for dove and even ducks down here in texas.

caglatz i love your avatar - - did i take that?? ;-) ;-) ;-)


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

This whole deal about can't afford the attire for UKC is crap. You don't have a camo shirt, pants, and hat? Then why on gods green earth are you even running a hunt test???

I enjoy both AKC and UKC test. Like everyone else has said. AKC is more technical and UKC is more realistic.

Just to give you a run down of the levels of difficulty as they would stack in order with both organizations.
1. Started (UKC)
2. Junior (AKC)
3. Seasoned (UKC)
4. Senior (AKC) However this can be wrong in some cases. Have seen Seniors harder than masters.
5. Finished (UKC)
6. Master (AKC)
7. Grand (UKC)

Having run both a number of times and discussed this a number of times. I believe that the HRCH title is more equal to a SH title than a MH. A master test is totally different from a finished test. Masters are more technical for the most part and marks/blinds tend to be longer in most cases. Pass/Fail rates change drastically when changing from Finished to Master.

However, the UKC Grand is the cream of the crop of UKC. There are no real tricks to the test. Just flat out good hunting test that your dog must do perfectly or near perfect. 

AKC also has the Master National which is very much like the grand in design but is judged very differently. Passing percentage is much higher in the Master National than the Grand. Grand passing rate is normally around 25%.


In conclusion if your wanting a great hunting dog UKC is more up your alley. If your wanting to test your dogs training AKC is for you. Me personally I enjoy both and train for both. The goal in the hunt test world is to obtain a GRHRCH and a MH for most people. However very few will ever obtain that. A GRHRCH MH dog is the complete package for a hunting dog.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I run both and like both. Everyone has already spoken about the differences so I won't rehash any of that. The main reason I run both is for my dog. I've always had the philosophy that if I can put my dog into as many different situations as possible he will be better prepared when we are actually hunting. If we go someplace new to hunt or are hunting in a different type scenerio then he will be better able to adapt quickly to that scenerio and perform as he usually does. Both HRC and AKC tests are different enough that it challenges my dog and he will be the better for it in the long run.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I like the HRC camo policy when I see folks at "hunt" tests wearing shiny jet black or almost white faded camo... Seems to me they're not "playing the game..."



Trykon said:


> ...I enjoy both AKC and UKC test. Like everyone else has said. AKC is more technical and UKC is more realistic.


The business of shooting primer loads adds a kind of difficulty that's hard to compare with the other 2. (I like it! makes it fun. I don't like the "swinging.")

I'd say NAHRA is inbetween in technical retriever difficulty as a general rule. But NAHRA includes upland and trailing, so that's another incomparable.


> Just to give you a run down of the levels of difficulty as they would stack in order with both organizations.
> 1. Started (UKC)


NAHRA Started


> 2. Junior (AKC)


NAHRA "Hunter"


> 3. Seasoned (UKC)


NAHRA Intermediate


> 4. Senior (AKC) However this can be wrong in some cases. Have seen Seniors harder than masters.
> 5. Finished (UKC)


NAHRA Senior


> 6. Master (AKC)
> 7. Grand (UKC)


I have the titles (or MH certificate) in all three and I don't think Trykon is too far off. The "Grands" I've seen (but not run) seemed to be judged on extreme obedience as much as retriever work. Personally, I wouldn't spend the money for that if I could run 5 Finished tests instead. But an intermediate level dog that has lots of hunting experience might well out-hunt an NFC who didn't have the experience (but who would likely learn faster than most dogs). There's lots in real hunting you can't test in the games.

They're all fun when the judges do their job. And in any case, the training and running will give you a better hunting dog who is prepared to learn on the real job.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

surfgeoD300 said:


> i run HRC events in blue jeans, old sneakers, and a camo t-shirt -


IN TEXAS....WHERE???? The HRC judges are camo fashion police in Texas. Don't forget to wear you camo hat too.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Trykon said:


> AKC also has the Master National which is very much like the grand in design but is judged very differently. Passing percentage is much higher in the Master National than the Grand.


I think your list and your comments are pretty accurate, but, insofar as MN pass rates vs. Grand pass rates, remember that for the last couple of years, we've had standards that have to be met to qualify for the MN. That eliminates dogs that might not pass. At the Grand, any HRCH can be entered, so I would expect pass rates to be lower.

BTW, I'm confident that guy is kidding about the cost of the camo clothes.

Finally bought some camo cargo shorts regards,


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Don smith said, "I'm confident that guy is kidding about the cost of the camo clothes."

Actually, no....The last Finished test we were at Dave was dressed in a pair of his brush pants that he usually wears while hunting with a camo shirt and camo hat. One of the judges specifically told him he better have some camo pants. Luckily he did have some camo rain gear that he put on for the test. 

There was an exposed white bucket in one of the bird boy blinds - you could see about 5 inches of it under the camoed material that hid the rest of the equipment. I mentioned it to the judge becaus it could have been a distraction to some of the younger dogs running. It would have be very easy to pull up some plant material to hide it, but instead he said that it didn't matter. 

There were two flights of finished that day. At the other flight We saw handlers wearing jeans. I even saw some khaki or olive shirts being worn by the handlers. 

I think some judges are getting carried away with the head to toe camo. I'm all for wearing camo in the spirit of the day. But to demand handlers be dressed in head to toe camo on the line and then have an exposed white bucket in the bird boy blind that you could see from the line is sort of two faced.

We've always enjoyed bring a young dog up through both HRC & AKC flipping back and forth as one goal was met in one it lead into the other. Our club is a duel club and works hard to put on events that everyone can enjoy. We used to really enjoy running HRC it was more relaxed and fun, but that seems to be changing at least around here. I hate to see it go that way.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> I think some judges are getting carried away with the head to toe camo. I'm all for wearing camo in the spirit of the day. But to demand handlers be dressed in head to toe camo on the line and then have an exposed white bucket in the bird boy blind that you could see from the line is sort of two faced.


I was referring only to the cost of a set or two of camo clothing. With all we spend on this pastime, the cost of a set or two of camo clothing is a drop in the bucket. Although my main focus is AKC, I do enjoy running HRC. I agree with you, however, that the insistence on total head-to-toe camo is a little ridiculous. I remember reading on here some time ago that the judges at some HRC test somewhere made the handlers put on camo make-up. That's where I would have drawn the line. The insistence on all camo seems especially ridiculous when I can appear at a test in my camo shorts with my pasty-white legs showing and it's acceptable. I sometimes hunt with only partial camo and I generally do pretty well.

Whacked 'em last Sunday regards,


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

Don Smith said:


> I think your list and your comments are pretty accurate, but, insofar as MN pass rates vs. Grand pass rates, remember that for the last couple of years, we've had standards that have to be met to qualify for the MN. That eliminates dogs that might not pass. At the Grand, any HRCH can be entered, so I would expect pass rates to be lower.


Any HRCH may enter, but, the dog must pass the Grand twice, 5 series each, including 1 upland event flushing live birds per Grand. 

The dog must also aquire 300 total points before being awarded the title.


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

Don Smith said:


> I think your list and your comments are pretty accurate, but, insofar as MN pass rates vs. Grand pass rates, remember that for the last couple of years, we've had standards that have to be met to qualify for the MN. That eliminates dogs that might not pass. At the Grand, any HRCH can be entered, so I would expect pass rates to be lower.
> 
> BTW, I'm confident that guy is kidding about the cost of the camo clothes.
> 
> Finally bought some camo cargo shorts regards,


Your correct on that that, and it's probably why the pass rates are higher with the MN. However the Master National is not judged as strictly as the grand.

In the Master National you can handle on more than one mark and still pass. However you can't in the grand.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

My two have run AKC and HRC and will continue to run both! I enjoy them both (any opportunity to run my dogs is fun to me!), but will keep my main focus towards AKC. HRC seems to me to be more laid back, lots of family involvement, training days if you are lucky enough to have clubs around you; children are invited and encouraged to get involved. The people at HRC club events are incredibly helpful and fun. From my limited experience, of course handling and shooting the gun is different, and being able to talk to your dog after signaling is wonderful. Marks appear to be different as well (but remember, my experience is limited)....generally more cover, not as long and situated in areas that are not as "open" as AKC...this may just be in the events I have been at and not necessarily true to form. I found "Starter" to be easier than Junior. I have not run Seasoned yet, but have watched several events. I plan on entering my dogs once I see some HRC tests in my area. 

I do love the structure of AKC. I find the people, as a whole, to be more serious, but that is not necessarily a detriment in my opinion. More attention is paid to detail (i.e. dog not running the bank on the way back; straighter lines, etc.). 

If I were you, I would run both. 

Patti
________
BUY AIR ONE VAPORIZER


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

EricW said:


> IN TEXAS....WHERE???? The HRC judges are camo fashion police in Texas. Don't forget to wear you camo hat too.


well, i haven't run a test in 11 years, they must have gotten worse.

but it _is_ legitimate hunting attire. guess i better ramp it up before i run next spring, huh?


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

EricW said:


> IN TEXAS....WHERE???? The HRC judges are camo fashion police in Texas. Don't forget to wear you camo hat too.


i guess they would disallow this too?

http://www.lonesomedovehrc.org/

from huntingretrieverclub.org:


CLOTHING

Judges, Hunt Marshals, Gunners, Bird Boys and Handlers must wear hunting clothes. Hunting clothes worn must be harmonious with the hunting environment, such as camo in waterfowl and dove hunting, white clothing if snow goose hunting. Gallery and spectators should not be in white or light colored attire that might interfere with the dog’s performance.


i think i would defend my long sleeve camo tshirt and jeans vigorously, based on the above its ok since it does not specify head-to-toe camo.

any judges care to weigh in on this??


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

It isn't the whole program that insists on head to toe camo but it has happened at more than one event that handlers were sent scrambling if they were wearing anything but head to toe camo. And you can debate it all you want....if the judge says you aren't camoed enough there is nothing you can do about it, no court of appeals, either camo up or risk hearing your page fold before you ever get started.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> It isn't the whole program that insists on head to toe camo but it has happened at more than one event that handlers were sent scrambling if they were wearing anything but head to toe camo. And you can debate it all you want....if the judge says you aren't camoed enough there is nothing you can do about it, no court of appeals, either camo up or risk hearing your page fold before you ever get started.


I agree with you.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Don Smith said:


> I agree with you.



judges legislating from the bench.....sounds familiar....lol!


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

It really not that hard to wear dull colored or camo clothes that are harmonious with the environment. I carry a small duffel bag with a jacket, a pair of rain pants and a cap...all camo. 

Why do people try to make fashion statements during tests? If you're running the test, observe the rules or forfeit your entry fee. It's not that hard. You agreed to it when you sent in your premium. 

I'll admit, personally, I've never really been too keen on enforcing head-to-toe camo in my HRC tests, but it seems you always have someone who wants to push it and make a fashion statement. Dull colored green or brown clothes are OK. Bright is bad. At the Grand, everyone knows it's camo head-to-toe.

For the record, I run and judge HRC. I run AKC tests and trials. I always have spare clothes in a bag in the truck. It ain't that hard folks....

Sheesh.....


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Cat Squirrel said:


> It really not that hard to wear dull colored or camo clothes that are harmonious with the environment. I carry a small duffel bag with a jacket, a pair of rain pants and a cap...all camo.
> 
> Why do people try to make fashion statements during tests? If you're running the test, observe the rules or forfeit your entry fee. It's not that hard. You agreed to it when you sent in your premium.
> 
> ...


when i was running before i was in pretty hard times, 2 kids in private school and about 1/3 my current income, i couldn't even afford to hunt except on public lands. camo shirt and jeans was it, i even had to use cut-off old waders for boots. trained all 3 dogs on home-made wooden bumpers because i couldn't afford several hundred dollrs for several dozen of the real ones. and back then it was very common to wear jeans, i was far far from being the only one.

but what about the trainer pants with the waterproof leg for the wet dog? lots of people wore those then as well, but they arent camo.....

and for the record, i like the wooden bumpers so much i still prefer them...


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Cat Squirrel said:


> It really not that hard to wear dull colored or camo clothes that are harmonious with the environment. I carry a small duffel bag with a jacket, a pair of rain pants and a cap...all camo.
> 
> Why do people try to make fashion statements during tests? *If you're running the test, observe the rules or forfeit your entry fee. *It's not that hard. You agreed to it when you sent in your premium.
> 
> ...



The rules don't say head to toe camo. Brush pants _are_ hunting attire. And yes we do carry an assortment of various clothing when we attend one of these tests because you never know when someone will say that what you are wearing isn't good enough.

We aren't talking about the Grand when it _does_ say head to toe camo. Nobody is trying to make a fashion statement. Folks are wearing what they think is fine (it was fine last weekend or even yesterday) but suddenly they aren't allowed to come to the line in what they normally wear hunting. 

I have often wondered if you needed waders because of standing in flooded timber could you wear the brown waders? or would they have to be camo....now you might see how getting the proper attire could get expensive.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I showed up to train at "my" grounds and the danged UKC club had a test set up. They talked me into signing up to run seasoned, what the heck, why not....by the end of the day they had me throwing birds for finished.....Passed, it was pretty simple test. Dog was 15months at the time. (probably had fewer problems then than now) 

Anyways, the amount of handling in the UKC tests pretty much voids the chance the are comparable to AKC tests. 

When marking, the dog either marks or it doesn't. I saw finished dogs being handled repeatedly, (and refusing lots of casts)on very short marks which I really would think should send the dog packing if, it didn't make it on his own.....a few had this issue and all passed. Not talking the test or UKC down just surprised on the "quality" of dog work which resulted in pass/points. 

I still had a good time and enjoyed the day...I can't agree more, it was a fun environment..PG


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> I have more fun at a HRC test most of the time but have a lot of fun at AKC test also.
> 
> 
> I like to know how an AKC judge can set up a test that doesn't miss up your training but a HRC judge will. Just Curious.
> ...


Said usually won't. Didn't say will not. My experiences in HRC tests so far does not leave a good impression. And some of the most overly contrived tests I've run in AKC have been under HRC judges. Just my experiences.
I will probably at some point run UKC again. But, for the most part, AKC.
Another advantage is the word AKC in the title. Especially if you want to do another AKC discipline too. Also, I believe that to most people, AKC is more recognized.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

chopper.rookie said:


> the reason i brought this up is because we have started a new retriever club in utah www.utahretrievers.com and were not akc or ukc so i wanted to find out what our options are. keep this going, nery good info!



Yes I spoke with someone from your club. I am here to help in anyway you need me to get this off the ground.


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

CBR KAIE said:


> Anyways, the amount of handling in the UKC tests pretty much voids the chance the are comparable to AKC tests.
> 
> When marking, the dog either marks or it doesn't. I saw finished dogs being handled repeatedly, (and refusing lots of casts)on very short marks which I really would think should send the dog packing if, it didn't make it on his own.....a few had this issue and all passed. Not talking the test or UKC down just surprised on the "quality" of dog work which resulted in pass/points.


Come on down and run in Region 4 and 4A. Unusual to see a dog with more than 1 handle for a day go home with a pass. Have a whistle or cast refusal while handling on a mark + a whistle or cast refusal on a blind for the day and generally you are toast.

This fall we have run tests with 3 down the shore and the blind being under the arc of the go bird, several inlines some with the blind being hot with the wind blowing across the line to the memory bird , several checkdown marks, out of order marks and pushing the dog directly through the fall area of a mark on the way to a blind.

As far as judges, I have run tests in the last few months that had 8 point AKC judges who also judge HRC sitting behind me and have also run under AKC FT judges that play both games.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

brandywinelabs said:


> Said usually won't. Didn't say will not. My experiences in HRC tests so far does not leave a good impression. And some of the most overly contrived tests I've run in AKC have been UNDER HRC judges. Just my experiences.
> I will probably at some point run UKC again. But, for the most part, AKC.
> Another advantage is the word AKC in the title. Especially if you want to do another AKC discipline too. Also, I believe that to most people, AKC is more recognized.


I thought AKC judges had to judge AKC tests. Maybe you had AKC judges ruining your HRC tests.

Just funnin' ya.


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

OMG - you can cut the "attitude" with a knife ---

I don't care what side you are on---- I wish this thread wouldn't have started again, but here it goes.

A Hunt Test - IMO is designed to test the dogs level of ability, training etc......The Handler's fashion statement has little to do with it---OTHER Than a way for UKC to say "hey -we are so much more realistic than those other guys". (yes I would agree with the previous post -- UKC for realistic and AKC a little more technical- I am not arguing this at all).

The "attitude" of some - ruins it for me......either AKC or UKC - I don't care...........

This may surprise several of you---
I have had more fun, learned more and have heard 1/10th the bickering bullstuff @ the Field Trial Events this past year - than in 8 years of the HT game.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

J Hoggatt said:


> OMG - you can cut the "attitude" with a knife ---
> 
> I don't care what side you are on---- I wish this thread wouldn't have started again, but here it goes.
> 
> ...


I haven't been entered in any FT events because my dog isn't ready and may never be but, I love the sport and have to agree that attending all the local trials in my area, everyone is friendly and really seems to have little attitude. The perception is opposite although, I'm sure it varies area to area. I have only run AKC tests other than two UKC's which just happened to be running on the training grounds down the road from my house and I stumbled upon them when just heading down to do some training. 

In general, I would say the FT game gets a bad rap. All the guys out here in the Northwest have been nothing but friendly when striking up conversation or discussing a set-up/commenting on running dogs. I have even seen a beer or two tossed my direction when I have looked pathetically thirsty on a hot day....PG


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Gotta agree with that sentiment. I really enjoy shooting for the ORTC FT's - great folks!! I have shot for the last 3 trials and more people have gone out of their way to express their appreciation than in the 20 some years of busting my hump at hunt tests. Not to mention that I have learned a thing or 2 about hiding chickens.

The rich white folks ain't all bad regards

Bubba


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Having read all post's I was suprised not to see more comparison's between the UKC grand and Akc master national. Having run and passed One grand and planning on the 2009 master national I was looking for some insight here.

I think the difference's between ukc and akc hunt test are a great benifit to the dog's and handlers that run both.If you also hunt with your dog it's a very good idea to run both.

Benifits to consider:UKC Finished
-More attention to line manners, result- calm dog in the blind.
-Marks are thrown without any attention getting efforts, result- dog learns to swing with the gun.
-Handler fires a popper at the marks , result- dog is conditined to the added excitement of gun fire. 
-Even if you had to pick your dog up in the first test you get to run the second, result- more ht experience for dog and handler.

Benifits to consider: AKC Master
-Test can be more technical and vary more ie; you might pick six birds in one series and three in the next, poison birds are not uncommon, you may watch three birds get thrown pick up a blind and then pick up the three marks, result- you have to vary your training more and youll become a better trainer and have a better dog.
- More than one bird may be thrown at once (simotaniouly), result- A dog that can mark in a real hunting situation where more than one bird is shot.
-Shot flyers Result- a dog that can handel the excitement of live birds being shot and remain compossed enough to do it's work.

Im sure others will add to this list but I think you'll see my point. Run both if you can. You'll have to train for both and you and your dog will be better for it. If your area dose not offer both and you want to start a club, form a club that is not currently offered. Then your area will have both. 

good luck Tim


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> Benifits to consider: AKC Master
> 
> - More than one bird may be thrown at once (simotaniouly), result- A dog that can mark in a real hunting situation where more than one bird is shot.


Tim,
Nice post overall, but I guess I would have to disagree with one point. Simultaneous marks may be a real life event, but that doesn't translate into a good test setup. There is no way to judge if a dog can truly mark, if two birds thrown simultaneously. I just don't see this as a benefit.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Folks let's be honest if you have a MH< HRCH<QAA dog do you think anyone will not let you hunt with them :-D
The games all compliment each other and when a dog is finished in them you have a well rounded dog that is a pleasure to hunt with and be around. Add a GRHRCH and MNH to that list and you have a dog that you have spent a lot of time on and should be darn proud of what you have done.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

> Tim,
> Nice post overall, but I guess I would have to disagree with one point. Simultaneous marks may be a real life event, but that doesn't translate into a good test setup. There is no way to judge if a dog can truly mark, if two birds thrown simultaneously. I just don't see this as a benefit.



Hi Flowageboy,
I would have to agree this test set up is not a good one. The one time I saw it it was two short birds angleing in on the water. It was do'able and alot of fun to run. There was alot of complaining by the handlers. I started training for this , allways simple marks, mostly on water and not to often.My young dog @24 months old was noticeably better this year , just his second duck season. More than once he picked up trip's and and quad's having marked all birds. I just think anything that can be sensibly add to your training is a benifit, remembering my original post spoke to those that hunt with our dogs. Thanks for your post I was'nt trying to promote this as a test set up and did'nt make that real clear.
Hey you run many test in Wi.? I've been to a few @ bong.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

TIM DOANE said:


> Hi Flowageboy,
> I would have to agree this test set up is not a good one. The one time I saw it it was two short birds angleing in on the water. It was do'able and alot of fun to run. There was alot of complaining by the handlers. I started training for this , allways simple marks, mostly on water and not to often.My young dog @24 months old was noticeably better this year , just his second duck season. More than once he picked up trip's and and quad's having marked all birds. I just think anything that can be sensibly add to your training is a benifit, remembering my original post spoke to those that hunt with our dogs. Thanks for your post I was'nt trying to promote this as a test set up and did'nt make that real clear.
> Hey you run many test in Wi.? I've been to a few @* bong.*


where are the tests with bongs??? i'm all over it! 

but i agree - a simultaneous mark in a real hunting situation is usually going to be a mark and a blind. i could agree to that in a test - a simultaneous double, you get to pick which one you run as a mark and which is a blind - well, the dog actually will decide that for you.....


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

guys,
you can not have 2 birds in the air at the same time in akc.
Ken Bora


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Margo Ellis said:


> Folks let's be honest if you have a MH< HRCH<QAA dog do you think anyone will not let you hunt with them :-D


Absolutely. 

To be honest the average JH, SR or whatever is better than the dogs 90% of hunters use. Whichever game you play, to be successful at even the lower levels, your dog is way better trained than most.

The best is watching the hunting shows on TV. At some point they all rhapsodize about Rover, but it is very rare that you see a dog that anyone on this board would consider ready to take hunting. 

Several years ago when I was living in MD, I won a raffle for a guided hunt on the bay with a guide who was supposed to be excellent. I called and asked if I could bring my dog and he said no, he had a great dog and didn't want to deal with client dogs. Fair enough. However, his dog was terrible. If you sent him on a retrieve, the guide had to run down from the blind to make sure he didn't eat the duck. And, he had to pick up more ducks in his boat than the dog picked up all day since he could not do even easy blinds. That sort of angered me as when he was out in the boat, ducks were not coming in. Had I brought my dog, nobody would have had to leave their seats. At least I was only out the tip, which the guide definitely earned since his 'partner' wasn't trained well enough to do his job.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

DoubleHaul said:


> ...I called and asked if I could bring my dog and he said no, he had a great dog and didn't want to deal with client dogs. Fair enough. However, his dog was terrible. ...


I had a similar experience. My friend's NAHRA GMHR with a lot of real goose hunting experience (and recently returned from a trip to Saskatechewan) sat in the truck a half mile away while we helped the guide's "great meat dog" find the birds...

In fairness, I image a lot of client dogs really are trouble.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

> guys,
> you can not have 2 birds in the air at the same time in akc.
> Ken Bora


Hi Ken ,
I did not know that. I knew it was not allowed in UKC. The test I ran that had Two birds in the air at once the akc rep was in attendance. Im certian he was made aware of it. I was even told the judge we ran under was known for this.

Nice buck by the way (avatar) this years?

Tim


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Ken where does it say no silultaneous falls in the AKC book? I've only seen such a set up once or twice, but don't believe its illegal. (don't particularly like this kind of test)


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> guys,
> you can not have 2 birds in the air at the same time in akc.
> Ken Bora



We had a set of judges from out of state do this once in a land test that our dog ws running. They actually had a live flyer shot one direction with a controlled being launched the other way from a mom and pop type set up with two bird boys blinds set up one behind the other and just slightly off set. And then ther was a 3rd bird thrown making both of those memory birds.

Another time I remember it being done with two controlled birds that were launched or thrown from a boat both going the same direction at the same time and landing in the water but one bird was to be thrown further than the other one....sort of an eclipse. I think they were the go birds...not sure about it exactly as I didn't watch this test just heard the descriptions.

The first senario required handling by many fine marking dogs. The 2nd one gave the dogs very little difficulty even with the vegetation in the water where the birds landed.

I don't believe that there is anything that says a judge can't set this up. I just wonder if they were intending to be judging something other than pure marking because especially on the first senario, the dogs couldn't possibly be focused on both birds.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

There was a test at the MN in Indiana (2000) that featured 2 birds thrown simultaneously. I ran Scooter as test dog on that one and it completely blew the main breaker on her. 
That was the test that gave Terry Thomas a new facial feature as well.

Being legal and wise are 2 different things regards

Bubba


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Why on God's green earth would a judge want to do this? Isn't marking of primary importance when we are judging dogs. I think all three venues use that term? I could be wrong as I haven't looked at a NAHRA rule book in a few years. I know UKC is that way and AKC. 

I'll say it again, put the darn birds where fido doesn't want to go, see how well he has been trained at the upper level. Lower levels, just let them see a mark with some terrain and decoys, does he have any natural ablity in there? 

K.I.S.S. !!!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Someone posted earlier that they had run a HRC Finished test, where they were required to run a blind under the arc of an old fall.

I was under the assumption that this was not legal in HRC.

I have reviewed the sorry HRC rule book, and cant find a mention of this.

IS A blind run under the arc of an old fall legal in HRC Finished tests??
And if it isnt leagl, Where does it adress this in the rule book?

I dont think I have ever seen this.

Gooser


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

I dont know if its in the rule book or not Gooser but I've run more than one finished test with the blind under the ark of a fall.


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Someone posted earlier that they had run a HRC Finished test, where they were required to run a blind under the arc of an old fall.
> 
> I was under the assumption that this was not legal in HRC.
> 
> ...





TIM DOANE said:


> I dont know if its in the rule book or not Gooser but I've run more than one finished test with the blind under the ark of a fall.



Yes...it is legal. Why wouldn't it be?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> guys,
> you can not have 2 birds in the air at the same time in akc.
> Ken Bora





TIM DOANE said:


> Hi Ken ,
> I did not know that. I knew it was not allowed in UKC. The test I ran that had Two birds in the air at once the akc rep was in attendance. Im certian he was made aware of it. I was even told the judge we ran under was known for this.
> 
> Nice buck by the way (avatar) this years?
> ...


yes this years



Bob Gutermuth said:


> Ken where does it say no silultaneous falls in the AKC book? I've only seen such a set up once or twice, but don't believe its illegal. (don't particularly like this kind of test)





Lady Duck Hunter said:


> I don't believe that there is anything that says a judge can't set this up. I just wonder if they were intending to be judging something other than pure marking because especially on the first senario, the dogs couldn't possibly be focused on both birds.


In the "Regulations & Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers" under judges responsibilities my book it is page 35 paragraph (2) "Signaling for birds to be thrown. Each set of Official Guns shall be signaled separately. This prevents additional birds being shot if a fall is unsatisfactory to the Judges. The signaling Judge should be careful that neither his signaling nor the shadow of it might be an unwanted distraction."

so, one gun station is signaled, bird is thrown. Judge determines it is a good throw and signals the next gun station and then the next. no way two can be tossed at once. somebody fibbed on the affirmation form. but that will not be the first time that happens.


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