# Dog Bite....weird situation



## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

1. We are already in contact with a vet and a behaviorist after this happened, so are mainly wondering if this has happened to anyone before, and if so, how it all panned out with your dogs later on.

The other night, our very nice neighbor lady returned at twilight from turkey hunting. She was wearing full camo and carried her turkey into the house and then came back outside to get the rest of her gear. Our chessie has never hunted and has never been exposed to live or dead birds. Our dog knows her and she has loved on him and petted him in the past. 

Our dog had just been retrieving in the yard and was near our house. We walked to the edge of our property where our neighbors car was parked in her driveway and started chatting with her as we walked. Our dog came from behind us and ran up to our neighbor. Bad manners, and I was getting ready to apologize and correct him, but honestly thought he was going up to be petted. He will sometimes sneak away or run up to my sister or family friends when he wants to be loved on by them. There was no growling...no sound whatsoever.

He got up to her legs, and started growling and snapping and went up on his hind legs enough to bite her forearm. Once he had growled, it was a bit of chaos, but it involved my hubby yelling at him and he didn't continue snapping and growling...it was enough for him to be verbally corrected, and he was kenneled in the house immediately.

Neighbor lady went to the hospital for a couple of stitches and my hubby went to the hospital to meet her and her husband with copies of our dogs shot records and apologize profusely.

I immediately called his breeder and asked for advice. She said that the situation didn't sound like normal aggression, because he's not aggressive with people normally. He doesn't even guard his food. She suggested a trip to the vet due to a possible health issue, like an inner ear problem she'd seen before, or something else, and neutering him as soon as possible as well as keeping him on leash or cable at all times.

He does have an ear infection which we didn't know about 2 days ago. We haven't met with the behaviorist yet, but through contact with her, she wondered if perhaps he could've been overwhelmed by the bird smells and instinct kicked in as he hasn't been exposed to any of that. Just conjecture at this point though.

We have waffled in the last 2 days between immediately rehoming him to a hunter in the country or something like that by asking his breeder for help, or sticking it out and keeping him on leash at all times and observing the situation for awhile to try to assess what's going on...perhaps the ear infection messed up his depth perception and ability to figure out who our neighbor was?

Has anyone ever heard of this before? It's weird and out of character, and a bit stressful too. Can an ear infection mess up a dog that badly?


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

Chessies by nature are protective. I think your dog was exhibiting that behavior. It was twilight and your neighbor I assume was dressed differently than normally, being in camo and smelling different because she was turkey hunting. Your dog probably thought this was a stranger. That said, the bite is significant if it needed two stitches. Your dog has drawn blood and that is not good. I would do what I had to to keep it from happening again. I have a Chessie that is friendly BUT if I let him out the front door and my neighbor just happens to be in his yard more than once my dog has charged over there, scaring the heck out of him and his work men. The last time he charged over there was to chase a puppy under my neighbor's deck. No harm done but I said that's it, never again. Now he is either on a leash or wearing an e-collar (and yes, he has been thoroughly conditioned to it) because he can't be scaring the neighbors when there is a chance encounter. This is a FRIENDLY dog but there are circumstances that arise in which the Chessie's natural tendency to protect comes to the forefront. He is restrained now not only out of consideration for my nice neighbor but for his own protection. If he gets shot, I do not have a leg to stand on.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

From the point of view of a taxidermist.

The smell of dead animals can sometimes set off dogs that are sensitive to 'wild' smells. You would not believe how often I have strange dogs that become interested in the smell of my shoes/pants/clothes - sometimes they have hackles raised, sometimes they are genuinely curious, and sometimes they come unglued, sometimes they want to run the other direction. LOL ... I always love it when people post things like 'If my dog doesn't 'trust' a certain individual, then I shouldn't either'... Obviously I love dogs!

A fellow I know has a chessie that is pretty uncertain around me - she will growl, bark, tuck tail, etc when she gets withing smelling range of me (esp during hunting season when my shoes take on the smells of the shop (which is kept pretty clean!). I have judged her and her handler before (as well as trained with them) and she seems to overcome the issues with me enough to be able to run the tests well.. I just keep it in mind and have my co judge take birds, etc...

Given that, I don't think your chessie's behavior is outright agression - I think it is 'dead animal' - what is that smell and why don't you smell like a human aggression. I would suggest trying to get her properly introduced to those types of smells.. especially if your neighbors are hunters.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Maybe chessies are just not for you and your family. After one incident that you cannot identify the cause you are thinking of rehoming him!


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Thank you for the insight, Chesaka and Tobias! I appreciate it!


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

moscowitz said:


> Maybe chessies are just not for you and your family. After one incident that you cannot identify the cause you are thinking of rehoming him!


Interesting perspective, but not very helpful.

Animal control came out within 2 hours of this incident and informed us that while our neighbors didn't want to press charges, they very well may ask us to rehome the dog. We have 4 children ages 3 to 13 and I also do daycare for my baby niece. We live on a corner triple lot in town, and our yard is frequently where the neighbor kids ( up to 10 to 15 kids) frequently congregate. Up until now, they all play with our dog.

One incident where a lady is bitten and receives stitches is DEFINITELY enough to consider rehoming for precisely the reason that we don't know what triggered it and it is out of character. Looking at all of the possible ways to help our dog NOT get put down AND protect the people of their neighborhood is just prudent. 

There is the real possibility that if this ever happened again, he could end up put down or someone else could get hurt. Considering rehoming him to a quieter home could potentially keep him alive too. We're not just trying to dump him.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

are you paying for the med bills?
Also consider your legal liability for this and future bites.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Thomas D said:


> are you paying for the med bills?
> Also consider your legal liability for this and future bites.


Yep. We want to make sure she's well taken care of. They're super nice neighbors, and it's very respectable to deal with this directly instead of how it could've gone down.


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## 2dogs1949 (Dec 27, 2013)

I have friends, husband and wife, that are pro trainers. They had a Chessie in for months and they both worked with him. She aired him out and put him back in his run. She noticed a pine cone in the run. She opened that gate, bent to pick it up and he had her. He chewed her up pretty bad before she got away. He went home the next day. No explanation as to why, it just happened.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

My bet is the dog is around two years of age or a little older, has been coddled and loved in a way that translates into him thinking he is the pack leader. This is the first of what could be many situations where the dog feels he must protect the pack with aggression. Changing the monster you have created will take a lot of time and effort and will only start after you get through the denial stage. In the meanwhile, you have a serious liability on your hands and have basically admitted to such on the public internet. Please don't experiment any longer.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

You have my full sympathy, but since the dog was growling and snapping, this was a warning that something was strangely disturbing to the dog. I think the idea of wild game scent may be a very good analysis. We have had Chesapeakes for over 40 years and I have been bitten once by a 14 month old male that I bred years and years ago that unfortunately turned out to have "rage syndrome". It is a rare issue, but genetic and there is nothing to do but put the animal to sleep. It is uncontrollable and occurs without warning or provocation in several breeds. I suspect that your Chessie may be spoiled (sorry) but that is how it sounds and you are being very responsible. Chessies do need a job and obedience training as well as a pack leader. Please read "Nothing In Life Is Free" and determine if this would not help the situation. Wishing you the best. http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

RetrieverNation said:


> My bet is the dog is around two years of age or a little older, has been coddled and loved in a way that translates into him thinking he is the pack leader. This is the first of what could be many situations where the dog feels he must protect the pack with aggression. Changing the monster you have created will take a lot of time and effort and will only start after you get through the denial stage. In the meanwhile, you have a serious liability on your hands and have basically admitted to such on the public internet. Please don't experiment any longer.


This could not be better stated....Take action to move this dog to a new home ASAP


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## Rodger Williams (Mar 9, 2005)

After being bit while petting one that I had trained with once or twice a week for almost a year, I will never trust another Chessie!


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## Terry Britton (Jul 3, 2003)

Rodger Williams said:


> After being bit while petting one that I had trained with once or twice a week for almost a year, I will never trust another Chessie!


Didn't Rex Carr have to use a trash can lid for protection every time he trained a certain Chessie that also became an FC?


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

Having a reputation as dogs that relate well to one owner / pack, I am not so certain that rehoming him would not be just relocation of the problem? Certainly it would seem that any rehoming should go to a person highly familiar with the breed and where potential for additional encounters can be minimized.

Irishwhistler


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

As stated before this is not a breed for Chessiemom even though her past posts she was eager to give advice on training and other things involving dogs. Yes I have Chessies some of you know me. I will not defend Chessies because it will do no good. Opinions are made people like Chessiemom have contributed to that reputation. 

It would be nice if Chessiemom told us the breeding if she is to do any positive thing about her post. She should also contact the breeder so they have an option to take the dog back. But knowing the breeding would be the biggest help on this post. Oh yeah don't give advice on chesapeakes as you have done before since I don't think you know much about the breed.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

RetrieverNation said:


> My bet is the dog is around two years of age or a little older, has been coddled and loved in a way that translates into him thinking he is the pack leader. This is the first of what could be many situations where the dog feels he must protect the pack with aggression. Changing the monster you have created will take a lot of time and effort and will only start after you get through the denial stage. In the meanwhile, you have a serious liability on your hands and have basically admitted to such on the public internet. Please don't experiment any longer.




I think this^^^^^^ is it right here!!!! Especially based on the OP's call name. Were it ChessieOwner or ChessieMaster, I'd may think otherwise.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

ChessieMom said:


> Interesting perspective, but not very helpful.
> 
> Animal control came out within 2 hours of this incident and informed us that while our neighbors didn't want to press charges, they very well may ask us to rehome the dog. We have 4 children ages 3 to 13 and I also do daycare for my baby niece. We live on a corner triple lot in town, and our yard is frequently where the neighbor kids ( up to 10 to 15 kids) frequently congregate. Up until now, they all play with our dog.
> 
> ...


I think you show a lot of character for putting responsibility ahead of emotions. Dog owners need to put themselves in the shoes of non-dog owners.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Mr. Adams she may be responsible but you should read her previous posts. This is a woman who puts herself out as an expert and throws advice out to others. She is a beginner and I believe she was more of the problem than the dog. I feel for the dog more than I am sympathetic towards her or find her as responsible. I urge everyone to read her previous posts it will give you more insight into where the problem is.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Moscowitz, I don't know anything about Chessiemom, but it makes no difference in my books. Once a dog has drawn blood without a good reason, you have to think of others.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Irishwhistler said:


> Having a reputation as dogs that relate well to one owner / pack, I am not so certain that rehoming him would not be just relocation of the problem? Certainly it would seem that any rehoming should go to a person highly familiar with the breed and where potential for additional encounters can be minimized.
> 
> Irishwhistler


 we have thought about that too.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

moscowitz said:


> She should also contact the breeder so they have an option to take the dog back. But knowing the breeding would be the biggest help on this post. Oh yeah don't give advice on chesapeakes as you have done before since I don't think you know much about the breed.


If you will go back and read my original post, you'd see that the very first thing I did was contact the breeder after we made sure the neighbor was ok and our dog was kenneled.

She and I talked for a long time, during which she told me that the situation didn't sound like normal aggression. Her thoughts were a medical issue or some unknown factor because it was so out of character that perhaps neutering wold help. And like we said, he does have an ear infection we didn't know about at the time.

Honestly, I was unsatisfied with the breeders advice after that point. She actually told us to tell the bitten neighbor that she and her husband weren't allowed onto our property ever again. I'm not willing to do that to people. The neighbors are awesome. Their safety and opinions do matter.

As far as advice goes, I have never stated I am an expert, though this is not the first chessie either my husband or I have owned. I have only ever given advice based on my own experience and general dog knowledge and I've been clear in that also.

You seem to have quite a problem with me though you don't know me at all. You make quite a few assumptions, but aren't offering any constructive advice. You are entitled to act however you wish. You're entitled to hold uninformed opinions of me, even though they are ignorant and unfounded. That is your right. Just consider though, that if you tried to offer up something constructive instead of bad mouthing a person you don't know anything about, you could really be helpful and be a benefit to the retriever sports.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Advice find a new home for the chessi and pick another breed. If you live in New Jersey the State Police are always looking for dogs or even the military.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> Advice find a new home for the chessi and pick another breed. If you live in New Jersey the State Police are always looking for dogs or even the military.


Jeeze Moscowitz, I'm sure you don't mean it, but you're coming across pretty arrogant and condescending. I would never presume to tell someone which breed to pick or not pick.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Yes I do mean what I say. Not trying to be arrogant but this individual and I remember her early posts and knew there was going to be a problem reflects on a breed I have deep feelings for. I run chessies and have not gone to the dark side and continue to trudge along.


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## kh407 (Oct 28, 2014)

moscowitz said:


> Yes I do mean what I say. Not trying to be arrogant but this individual and I remember her early posts and knew there was going to be a problem reflects on a breed I have deep feelings for. I run chessies and have not gone to the dark side and continue to trudge along.


I don't think you know much about Chessies at all.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

John Robinson said:


> Jeeze Moscowitz, I'm sure you don't mean it, but you're coming across pretty arrogant and condescending. I would never presume to tell someone which breed to pick or not pick.


It's possible he's right in this situation, though not for the reason he thinks he is. In the past, with our chessies we've owned, we have lived in the country. Neighbors being few and far between. There was no opportunity for this situation to have come up.

Now, due to hubbies job, we are in town, on a corner, with alot of foot traffic and alot of neighbors and alot of kids playing at our house, many of them not ours, without the same upbringing and dog experience. I think there is only one other dog in our neighborhood, and it's a senior dachshund. 

In the past, out in the country, we would've felt bad for the lady, paid her medical bills and probably not thought much about it again if we never saw any other evidence of it. In town though, we now have a situation where one neighbor is scared, others and parents of our kids' friends are concerned, our dog is in quarantine, and has a record in our county, and could very well get put down If we can't correct an issue we didnt know he even had.

Our other chessies didn't do this. They were protective, and boisterous at times, but didn't bite people out of the blue and scare them half to death. 

One of the things I find most disconcering, is that there wasn't a warning growl...or hackles up...outward signs of what could've gone down. He was silent until he was in her personal space. I've never had experience with that being a chessie trait personally. But it could be that with less stimulation, ie. Strangers appearing out of nowhere for him, that this wouldn't be an issue somewhere else.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

[/QUOTE]Our dog came from behind us and ran up to our neighbor. Bad manners, and I was getting ready to apologize and correct him, but honestly thought he was going up to be petted. *He will sometimes sneak away or run up to my sister or family friends when he wants to be loved on by them. *There was no growling...no sound whatsoever.


> You asked if this happened to anyone. No Chessie here but these are your words. You evidently allow your dog to break away and jump on people. He is not under control. Maybe he thought this was family, but even so, most dogs are not going to bite. This is more than bad manners, this is a dog that is not under control with issues. You should have been on him immediately instead of thinking he wanted be petted.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

kh407 said:


> I don't think you know much about Chessies at all.


Who knows? All I know, is that I've never claimed to be the expert he thinks I've claimed to be. His dislike for me is a little weird, considering we have never met. As far as I can tell, he dislikes me because I've entertained the idea of rehoming, even though it may not be up to me. Our neighbors really may push this.


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## kh407 (Oct 28, 2014)

That dog would be long gone if it was mine. An unprovoked bite for ANY reason can not be tolerated. 

What if it's a small child next time? Why would anyone want a dog that has a history of unprovoked biting?


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## sandysylvester (Apr 13, 2015)

If it were my boy in the situation, I would be very upset as you are. Though there could be a medical issue, from watching dog behavior it sounds to me like it could of been a combination of the clothing, time of day, smell of bird. Something about the situation he didn't like. Moving ahead, I would be very mindful of who he can come into contact with. Try not to panic. If you panic the dog will feel your anxiety and could possibly react. Limit his access to any non pack members. Better to be safe than sorry. Good luck!!


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Our dog came from behind us and ran up to our neighbor. Bad manners, and I was getting ready to apologize and correct him, but honestly thought he was going up to be petted. *He will sometimes sneak away or run up to my sister or family friends when he wants to be loved on by them. *There was no growling...no sound whatsoever.


> You asked if this happened to anyone. No Chessie here but these are your words. You evidently allow your dog to break away and jump on people. He is not under control. Maybe he thought this was family, but even so, most dogs are not going to bite. This is more than bad manners, this is a dog that is not under control with issues. You should have been on him immediately instead of thinking he wanted be petted.


We dont allow him to jump on people. There is a difference between a dog running up to be petted by a family member and running up and jumping all over them. I think you have the wrong idea of his normal everyday behavior.

He was wandering off leash a ways behind my hubby and I. He is super fast, and by the time I could get any words out of my mouth, he was by her side and growled, snapped, and bit. It was literally a split second thing.

As far as being on him immediately and stopping this before it happened, that's kind of the whole point to this post. He exhibited scary behavior we had never seen before and couldnt prevent, and I was hoping people had insight on whether the ear infection could've contributed to it..or the turkey... and if anyone had seen it before, what steps they had to take to fix it. It's not like I'm not already in contact with his breeder and a dog behaviorist. I figured more opinions could be helpful. We certainly don't want to have to give him up.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

ChessieMom said:


> We dont allow him to jump on people. There is a difference between a dog running up to be petted by a family member and running up and jumping all over them. I think you have the wrong idea of his normal everyday behavior.
> 
> He was wandering off leash a ways behind my hubby and I. He is super fast, and by the time I could get any words out of my mouth, he was by her side and growled, snapped, and bit. It was literally a split second thing.
> 
> As far as being on him immediately and stopping this before it happened, that's kind of the whole point to this post. He exhibited scary behavior we had never seen before and couldnt prevent, and I was hoping people had insight on whether the ear infection could've contributed to it..or the turkey... and if anyone had seen it before, what steps they had to take to fix it. It's not like I'm not already in contact with his breeder and a dog behaviorist. I figured more opinions could be helpful. We certainly don't want to have to give him up.


There are lots of things that could of contributed to this. Do you think the dog's owner, upbringing, training and early socialization had anything to do with it? Did the emotions projected by your neighbor contribute? At the end of the day you have a dog that was out of your control, approached someone in an aggressive manner and ended up biting them. And now your are going to hope someone on the internet tells you what you want to hear. You already said you did not like what the breeder told you even though it was good advice. When is your first appointment with the behaviorist? Will you listen to what they tell you if you do not like it? Are you going to wait until the dog bites again? Are you going to let the neighbor tell you if the dog needs to be re-homed? I certainly see where Moscowitz is coming from as this kind of attitude and lack of leadership is how a decent dog can go downhill fast and give the entire breed a bad name.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> ... I would never presume to tell someone which breed to pick or not pick.


Sorry to branch off, but it is very common in chessie circles. First question I was asked way back at a kitchen table as I interviewed for my first one was "Why do you think you want a Chessie?"
This wonderful breed is not for every dog owner. I agree with Mike.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I have three labs. Two are happy, slappy clowns, a threat to no one... would lick a burgler to death, etc. "Typical" lab. The youngster is just not great around strange dogs. I've never seen her be aggressive with people. 

But here's the thing: I don't want my dogs to ever be out of my control. We have a fenced back yard. We don't even leave them unattended in the back yard. Rather, if we can't be watching them... they're in a fence within the fence. (Chain-link kennel runs.)

We have to go out the front door to get in the truck to go train. She is e-collared up and being drilled on SIT... HEEL-SIT... HEEL-SIT... all the way to the truck. 

Never had a lab bite a person. I've had labs off and on since the 1970's. But I think, in part, it's because I don't set them up to get in trouble? Why take any chances? 

I also took the youngster to behaviorists and got a little better understanding about what her deal with other dogs is. And I worked with the behaviorist to re-condition her around strange dogs. BUT... I am NOT going to get her in a position where we have to take that chance, because... she might win the fight. Or she might lose it. Either way, bad sh1t is going to result.


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## Joyce (May 31, 2004)

First rehoming a dog with a bite history is not a good idea, your just passing your problem on to someone else. Be very careful with this...the person that he bite was in camo and probably had either washed they hunting clothes in stuff to repeal scent or sprayed clothes, had a hat on, etc. The dog could not get a read on this person and reacted. I'm not defending the dog just saying. 
Mike, it doesn't matter who bred this dog...it can and does happen ...once you sell a puppy or a dog to someone, you can't control what or how it's raised, even if you spell things out. 
Find someone who knows Chesapeake behaviour....rescue maybe a good starting point to point you in the right direction.
Sharon Potter maybe able to help also.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

RetrieverNation said:


> There are lots of things that could of contributed to this. Do you think the dog's owner, upbringing, training and early socialization had anything to do with it? Did the emotions projected by your neighbor contribute? At the end of the day you have a dog that was out of your control, approached someone in an aggressive manner and ended up biting them. And now your are going to hope someone on the internet tells you what you want to hear. You already said you did not like what the breeder told you even though it was good advice. When is your first appointment with the behaviorist? Will you listen to what they tell you if you do not like it? Are you going to wait until the dog bites again? Are you going to let the neighbor tell you if the dog needs to be re-homed? I certainly see where Moscowitz is coming from as this kind of attitude and lack of leadership is how a decent dog can go downhill fast and give the entire breed a bad name.


I think if you re read my posts on this, you'll see you missed some information. If you look carefully, I said the info my breeder provided after the point she said I should just not let my neighbors back on my property again. I totally agree with keeping him on leash and keeping him from situations where this could happen again. I disagree that we should just bar other people from our home and property. In our situation, it's not even physically possible to do so, but we wouldn't want to anyway.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

This has been interesting, and I've gotten some really good insight, even from Moscowitz, if I try to read between the lines. However, it seems to be progressing a little like the kids game, "telephone" with knee jerks reactions and so many posts that people lose sight of the facts of what actually going on. 

Thank you to those who have added insight from their experience. Feel free to keep on discussing this, but it's clear I've gotten about all of the helpful insight from this that can be had.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

It is a for certain thing that people will misread, misunderstand, misinterpret the written word from the writer's perspective. Everyone brings their own biases, opinions, view points, experiences with them - which is why so many types of advice and perspectives can be written on one situation. Just think how many 'translations' there are to the Bible!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If I had to guess, based on what's been disclosed thus far: I would guess that it was the combination of your neighbor's clothing and all the hunting scents that *triggered* the behavior....but the most likely actual *reason* for the behavior is that the dog felt the need to defend from a potential threat. 

Why? Because the dog doesn't trust you to take that role to defend the "pack", and does not consider you to be in charge. Especially with Chesapeakes, that is a concern. I tell people they are mentally a step or two closer to feral in their strength of instinct, which I love because those strong basic instincts make them easier to train (at least in my opinion) than many other breeds....IF you understand instinctive canine behaviors. 

I also usually find that the dogs that take an overactive defensive action like this are not leader types themselves, instead preferring someone else be the leader...and the insecurity they feel by not looking up to you as leaders manifests itself in this kind of behavior. 

Personally, I would rehome the dog...and for your current situation, choose another breed.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Thank you Sharon! That is really very helpful! He is really not a leader type. He is more a middle of the pack type. He is not one to cower, but is generally submissive, with us and even with other dogs we socialize along with him.

I would love to work with him and a trainer and really figure out how to fix an issue like you mentioned, if he's not seeing either me or my husband as capable of leading him. Honestly, its a little baffling, because I don't see either myself or hubby in that manner...we are generally take charge kind of people.

However, I don't know if that is a safe thing to do considering the large amount of foot traffic on our street and stimulation he gets from seeing so many people everyday. Perhaps just being on leash and being tethered to one of us at all times would help him feel more secure.

Up to this point, we have allowed him to wander around, within the bounds of our yard, as long as he was within 30 or 40 feet of us or so whenever we were outside. Maybe if he wasn't fully trusting us, this was stressing him out whenever someone new came by on the street.

Regardless, we are in contact with some local chessie people, and while we don't want to have to rehome him, we want him to live well and not hurt anyone either, so rehoming may happen.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Keep in mind that what people perceive as a "take charge" attitude among humans is not necessarily the same thing a dog considers "take charge" in dog language.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Chessiemom, I'm not a professional, and have only had chessies for 6 years, but it sounds like your current situation isn't particularly suitable for a Chesapeake anyway. Even if you owned a saint of a dog, people are going to be wary because of the breed (in the same way that they are wary of pit bulls) and blame things on the dog. A big corner lot home with lots of kids and neighbors coming and going, with a dog off leash and most like not carefully supervised: it's a recipe for disaster with many dogs. I also think that the average person has no idea of the kind of control a good dog handler can exert over a dog, thus making them able to be handled under stimulating circumstances. In my opinion, given your explanation of what your house and yard are like and the situation with the neighbor, the fact that you weren't able to control the dog and stop him in his tracks means that you don't have sufficient control to allow him to be off lead. You may well find that you'll be required to keep him in a secure kennel when he isn't leashed and/or muzzled. You have to do what you have to do, but it's a much different life for him that what you had envisioned. You've learned a hard and very dangerous lesson here. In order to protect yourself from future repercussions, you'll need to find a good professional for some help. If you do have to rehome him and the breeder doesn't want him back, be prepared to work hard finding a suitable person who can handle this dog... you're going to feel terrible if he ends up biting again. I don't envy you in this situation, although I do sympathize. You are very lucky you aren't being prosecuted over this.


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## K Rocha (Apr 30, 2013)

I didn't read every reply and forgive me if someone already covered this, but this is out of character for that dog, what happens if the next time it's one of your children? I wouldn't take a chance of that happening, one thing biting your neighbors arm but what if he bites your child's face? if your bent on keeping him at the very least have him defanged. your children's safety is much more important than any dog. I'm sure you agree, when I was younger I saw my buddy get bit in the face by there family dog, the boy was scared for life, mentally and physically.


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## kh407 (Oct 28, 2014)

K Rocha said:


> I didn't read every reply and forgive me if someone already covered this, but this is out of character for that dog, what happens if the next time it's one of your children? I wouldn't take a chance of that happening, one thing biting your neighbors arm but what if he bites your child's face? if your bent on keeping him at the very least have him defanged. your children's safety is much more important than any dog. I'm sure you agree, when I was younger I saw my buddy get bit in the face by there family dog, the boy was scared for life, mentally and physically.


EXACTLY! What if its a child he doesn't recognize or doesn't like the smell of next? You're not going to train this out of the dog.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

You have gotten a lot of uneducated opinions on this matter.
The facts is your dog is probably capable of having a high standard of some simple obedience commands. Also you are probably capable of learning how to be consistent with management practice. it just depends how bad you want this to happen. Its hard work at first but after a while it becomes just "what you do" like anything else in life.
Just because a dog bites a stranger has no relationship with biting a house hold member. There are dogs that are only dog aggressive,there are dogs that are only handler aggressive,there are dogs that are only aggressive to the outside pack members and there are those who share a combination of those if not all 3.
You gave very little back round on your dog so there is no way anyone can give some type of advice on it. My experience is most people miss the signals and give a skewed interpretation of what is going on anyway.
To me your dog is pretty simple according to what you wrote.
Fool me once shame on you ,,,,fool me twice shame on me.
This now should never happen again,,,
My question now is 
Are you a dog person,,do you have the ability to either train or maintain the training done with the dog. And do you have the capability to change your habits and learn to read your dog.
You'll need to do this to give the dog a long healthy life. And yes you can still enjoy him,,,actually you will enjoy being with him way more if you reach that point.
The 2 easiest types of aggression for people to deal with are dog on dog and dog on outside pack members,,so your doing just fine

Pete

PS
You said when the dog growled ciaos ensued, I 'll bet you that's what incited the bite
That's the worse thing to do next to a dog thats growling,,Growling should have given you time to diffuse the situation instead of escalating it.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

ChessieMom

Sharon Potter has suggested that many people don't really understand dog behavior and that leads to problems. And Pete has given some good insight on dog aggression.

An obedience and behavior modification person would probably recommend training desired behaviors that relate to non family members entering your property. This would probably go something like this: start with just a regularly dressed person entering your property---male, then female, then a person dressed in camo, then a person in camo with packages, person with different hats, then camo with scent, etc. And this would be a long term project.

My own obedience teacher identified what made his border collie skittish and has worked on this since he was a pup. I believe the dog must be 3 or 4 right now. It is an ongoing project. 

I would recommend you read CULTURE CLASH by Jean Donaldson. An excellent book. She has a chapter devoted to socialization, fear and aggression. She offers an excellent analysis of the Bite-Threshold Model. 

As for my own dogs I have trained them to sit when someone enters the house, I move forward to greet the person, if the dogs are good they can get petted. Also, the people are told how to approach the dogs so as to not heighten their excitement. In this way there are no surprises, everyone knows how to behave and nobody gets surprised. Dogs have ritualized behavior. I am training in them a ritualized behavior for this situation. I feel I am just adding to their list of behaviors that their mother and littermates taught them.


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## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

Moscowitz doesn't mintz words and he sometimes comes off harsh, but believe me, he knows chessies.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Thank you Tide Pond. But I wish I knew dogs better. Still have problems reading them. If I could read them better I would have an FC/AFC. But learn more everyday about dogs when I train. Just wish people would not have such a negative feeling towards chessies. They are so soft compared to labs.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

moscowitz said:


> Thank you Tide Pond. But I wish I knew dogs better. Still have problems reading them. If I could read them better I would have an FC/AFC. But learn more everyday about dogs when I train. Just wish people would not have such a negative feeling towards chessies. They are so soft compared to labs.


Thanks ChessieDad!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> Thank you Tide Pond. But I wish I knew dogs better. Still have problems reading them. If I could read them better I would have an FC/AFC. But learn more everyday about dogs when I train. Just wish people would not have such a negative feeling towards chessies. *They are so soft compared to labs*.


I think this is the big misconception regarding Chessie's. The old stereotype was of the hard headed Chessie that had to be trained with a 2x4, the truth is they are actually more sensitive than either Labs or Goldens and have to be trained differently. They are physically stronger, probably more protective of their owner, seem to have a requirement that they are treated "fairly" compared to the Lab who just follows orders like a good soldier. I've run against Linda Harger over the years and have always been impressed in what she gets out of her Chessie's generation after generation. They never sulk, always have great style, run great blinds and are exceptional markers, she really knows Chessie's and how to train them.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Yes Linda has great chessie and if I had a fraction of the knowledge she has about chessie/dogs I would be doing pretty good in field trials.


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## Gun Dawg (Dec 18, 2010)

No big deal Michael, just get your checkbook out & put'em w/Jerry P


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gun Dawg said:


> No big deal Michael, just get your checkbook out & put'em w/Jerry P


Linda was doing great before Jerry and will continue after.


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## Lovinchocolatelabs (Apr 13, 2016)

We fostered a chessie a few years back. It could be a combination of factors, including the dead animal smell, clothing, etc. Chessie's are smart and can be territorial. He defintely perceived a threat. There may have been someone in that kind of clothing that hurt or messed with him.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I hope you'll find this to be valuable advice - since you said you're in touch with local "chessie" people...

Forget his breed. It doesn't matter. The dog is what the dog is. I have seen everything from labs to goldens to pitbulls to any kind of mix you want get put into a situation where their natural inclination was to bite. 

It is said that aggression always follows fear... I'm not sure that's true as dogs would hunt if they were left to their own devices. That said, reading between the lines it sounds like you recognize that your dog (I don't care if he's a cockdoodledoodog) is somewhat nervous and fearful of the world.

That's the dog that bites people regardless the color of his skin. 

You need someone skilled in dog behavior and aggression, not someone who happens to have had a few Chessies. You have a breeder that has no idea what in the heck she's talking about - again regardless of breed. God only knows whom else you've run into that claim to be "chessie experts". 

A dog is a dog... Yes, you can tell something about their behavior based on what they might have been bred for but each and every one, regardless of breed, is an individual and must be treated as such by their owner/trainer/handler. 

Get yourself some good professional help. Someone who has helped some aggressive dogs in the past. Don't be afraid to travel or spend money either. Get the best person you can logistically and financially afford. 

Read post #45 or #46 from "Pete" over and over. He's handled more aggression cases than anyone on this thread, myself included. 

If you're close to Idaho... I know a guy (Pete).

Oh and if your "behaviorist" is a 25 year old girl with a psych degree, get a new one. You want someone with enough white hair to tell you they have more than a minute of experience.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ChessieMom said:


> 1. We are already in contact with a vet and a behaviorist after this happened,


Everything else is superfluous.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Pete said:


> PS
> You said when the dog growled ciaos ensued, I 'll bet you that's what incited the bite
> That's the worse thing to do next to a dog thats growling,,Growling should have given you time to diffuse the situation instead of escalating it.


As its been said you have a lot of experience with aggression in dogs, so perhaps you have more insight?

I'll give you a more detailed account of what I meant by chaos in case it will be helpful. I was trying not to be too wordy in my earlier posts. Our dog was off leash, but wearing his e-collar. We had just exercised him and he'd run a bunch of retrieves. As we were going up to the house to go inside with him, we noticed our neighbor was outside wearing her camo having just come back from turkey hunting. We said Hi and started chit chatting about the turkey she just shot (and had just put in her house) while walking towards her. Our dog knows her and she loves on him, so its not unusual for us to be outside with the dog off leash nearby. As my hubby and I were walking towards her, our chessie ran past us towards our neighbor. I remember thinking that he was misbehaving by running off without permission, and I was going to apologize for his poor manners. He has done this in the past with a few of our guests, mainly because they invite him to. My brother in law for instance is awesome, but kind of calls the dog and riles him up and pets him all over.

Anyway, when our dog got next to our neighbors legs, he growled, snapped, and snarled up on his hind legs and bit her arm. That's what I meant by chaos. His attack was chaotic and unexpected. He was running up all happy (or so it seemed) and then changed when he got to her. My neighbor screamed. My husband yelled at the dog and grabbed his collar and kenneled him inside while my neighbor (who is a tough girl and a hunter too) was pretty scared and jumped in the open hatch of her Suv to hide. 

The attack lasted milliseconds it seemed. And we didn't see it coming at all.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I stand by my original post - the dog was 'surprised' by the smell of a wild animal on your neighbor. He did not expect the smell of a wild turkey. My opinion... doesn't make what he did ok, right, or appropriate, but I think that is the cause.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Mistake # 1: Rather than planning on apologizing for his misbehavior, immediately recall him to heel before he gets more than a few steps in front of you. You said he's taken off like this in the past....and it doesn't matter who he running to, it's YOUR dog, you are in charge and need to be in control. He clearly doesn't see it that way. 

I'm looking forward to hearing more from Pete.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Mistake # 1: Rather than planning on apologizing for his misbehavior, immediately recall him to heel before he gets more than a few steps in front of you. You said he's taken off like this in the past....and it doesn't matter who he running to, it's YOUR dog, you are in charge and need to be in control. He clearly doesn't see it that way.
> 
> _I'm looking forward to hearing more from Pete. _




I like Pete, he's from Idaho the Chessie capitol of the West.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I think Sharron ,Tobias and others are probably correct about the growl. Its common for dogs to growl at unfamiliar objects and scents quite often but most usually back off,, but I seriously doubt she would have to get rid of this dog. There should be a high rate of success if you have a good trainer/teacher .. Outside the pack aggression" isn't that tough to deal with. 

chessie mom
I wasn't talking about the incident or what led up to it,,I got the jist from your original post. I was talking about the history of the dog,how does he look (posture and movement)in public places or in close proximity to stranger,house hold members,strange animals ,familiar animals, Is he concerned or unconcerned ,totally ignore animals or people,,being a pest,, in some of these different environments. The way a dog looks as it moves through these different environments and situations gives a little insight about the animal itself and gives indications of personality type and how it may react in a certain type of situation.
That's sort of what I was looking for. Does she look around a lot especially if your going for a walk even in a known area ,,if so how does he look around. There are a ton of questions.
Before I asked you if you were a dog person(someone who understands dogs on a fairly deep level) because if your not it would be very difficult to recognize these things and label. them as you were looking at the dog moving through these environments.



A lot of people overlook this stuff or just don't recognize it. but its very important to know when your dealing with aggression. They are indicators

Think about that,,if it made sense to you,
There are alot of different ways now to deal with aggression, but management is always part of the solution,,and a very high standard of the control commands are usually all that is needed for outside pack aggression.
Personality can't be changed without a frontal lobodomy or some kind of trama to the brain but you can channel a dogs behavior and manage it successfully.
You know the old saying "dogs are easy to train but people aren't" Thats because the person has to know every thing the dog just has to respond to a stimulous of some kind
Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Mistake # 1: Rather than planning on apologizing for his misbehavior, immediately recall him to heel before he gets more than a few steps in front of you. You said he's taken off like this in the past....and it doesn't matter who he running to, it's YOUR dog, you are in charge and need to be in control. He clearly doesn't see it that way.
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing more from Pete.


I'll agree with this statement in like... 100% of cases where a dog decides on his own to run up to a person or chase an animal. Not good...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pete said:


> I think Sharron ,Tobias and others are probably correct about the growl. Its common for dogs to growl at unfamiliar objects and scents quite often but most usually back off,, but I seriously doubt she would have to get rid of this dog. There should be a high rate of success if you have a good trainer/teacher .. Outside the pack aggression" isn't that tough to deal with.
> 
> chessie mom
> I wasn't talking about the incident or what led up to it,,I got the jist from your original post. I was talking about the history of the dog,how does he look (posture and movement)in public places or in close proximity to stranger,house hold members,strange animals ,familiar animals, Is he concerned or unconcerned ,totally ignore animals or people,,being a pest,, in some of these different environments. The way a dog looks as it moves through these different environments and situations gives a little insight about the animal itself and gives indications of personality type and how it may react in a certain type of situation.
> ...


Notice - nothing in this excellent post has anything to do with breed...


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'll agree with this statement in like... 100% of cases where a dog decides on his own to run up to a person or chase an animal. Not good...


Exactly. That is why in my post about my training, it makes it clear that I am in charge and I will do the greeting.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

You might want to talk to your family attorney regarding your current and future liability for injuries caused by this dog.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Thomas D said:


> You might want to talk to your family attorney regarding your current and future liability for injuries caused by this dog.


Normally after one bite you are considered on notice that you dog is predisposed to that behavior, and you are strictly liable for any further biting. But, as Thomas said, check with local counsel to be sure of the law in your jurisdiction.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

There are no free bites. Liable for all bites. Plus age of child could determine liability or strict liability.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> There are no free bites. Liable for all bites. Plus age of child could determine liability or strict liability.


I worked with one with 9 free bites this year' Not everyone is sue happy
Pete


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Maybe not in Idaho


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I think rural people with different types of animals may be more forgiving. But we have our share of gold diggers.

So Chessie mom are you done with this thread?

Pete


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I am with you Pete this thread should come to an end.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Pete said:


> I think rural people with different types of animals may be more forgiving. But we have our share of gold diggers.
> 
> So Chessie mom are you done with this thread?
> 
> Pete


Yep! I only chimed back in to see what you, Sharon, and Darrin had to say. All wise advice from the 3 of you.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

This is the real reality. I have had my Homeowners insurance cancelled 3X, even with another company's liability insurance, and I have never had a dog related claim. Insurance companies hate to hear "dogs" because of the cost of dog bites, and they just look at multiple dogs as increased dog bite liability for them. I tried to explain that owners of trained multiple dogs are very careful, and it's the one dog owner that is causing most of their problems. They don't care. The last cancellation was because I didn't have a separate kennel building to house all the dogs because they were in the house and not in a kennel run in the house. The rest of us that feel that an unprovoced bite is not tolerated are paying for those that make excuses and endanger those around them in the neighborhood.


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