# Chesapeak Bay Retriever--the real deal



## Bob Harms (Oct 31, 2013)

Hi--I am looking or a great breeder of chessie pups--anyone have recommedations? I need the real deal--a high octane chessie ALWAYS willing to retrieve in some on the worst water/weather conditions. Fetching over and over and over, fearless, stamina, willingness to break ice, lots of guts. Larger dog with heavy coat needed. I hunt ducks and geese in Nebraska. I hunt alot in all kinds of situations and locations--marshes and rivers. 

I need a trainable chessie too-I understand the need to meet half way and negotiate with a chessie--I have owned them before. I had to put my last one down 3 years ago and he was AWESOME dog. The one I currently have is a great house dog put seems to lack desire to retrieve in difficult conditions. So I am planning for 2 dogs now.

I also need a family dog--a dog my wife can take on walks after work and a friend to my kids. 

Bob


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

The good news is there are numerous breeders that breed the type of pup you're looking for. The bad news is they're called labs.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

There are many good breeders, there are also "breeders" who are breeding dogs that have horrible genetic issues. There are several good Chessie people on RTF, there are also some real jerks. I would caution you to make sure that all clearances and health tests are done. If they are not listed on the ad (for instance they don't list elbows or DM status) keep looking. Anyone who purposely breeds an affected DM dog to a bitch that is not clear or has not been tested is not a person I would ever deal with, let alone buy a dog from.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Charles C. said:


> ....... The bad news is they're called labs.


so true, can not count the number of folk who ask if mine are "pure _bread_ chocolates" 
I just smile and say they are Baltimore Leg Hounds


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## SpinRetriever (Dec 25, 2012)

If the conditions are that bad and you need a family dog perhaps a Newfoundland would do the trick. I have seen a few coastal hunts.


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## Marilyn Fender (Sep 3, 2005)

Check with Sandy Dollar at web site named Cursan.com Do a Google or write to me for more information. 
She is at the Chessie Specialty right now in Cheraw so might not answer an email for a few days.
She winters in the Thomasville area. No idea if she has any pups left to sell right now or what litters she might have planned.
I have never owned a Chessie but have met many of Sandy's. 

Marilyn Fender
[email protected]


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

Sharon Potter just had a litter of 11 today. Well, her Chessie did. She is here on RTF and probably too busy to log on today.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Linda Harger- Fireweed Chesapeakes, Meridian Idaho...she is also at the specialty in South Carolina


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

Where are you located. There are several good breeders with some nice breedings. Feel free to email me with any questions and I will help you out. Both my dogs listed below are chessies. 

[email protected]

Russell


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Oh Gawd; I had to do this for a friend; who's MH Chessie up and died at 14 yrs. of age (how dare he get old). The owner had lost all contact with any lines or anyone in the Chessie world. It was very Tough; but we eventually found a good breeding. Of course now we have 4-5 upper level Chessie peeps in our club; and I know who to ask to find one. You really need to talk with Chessie people; watch their dogs, and get their input on where to get a Chessie; Most breeding's aren't advertised. The dogs and owners are a bit different but when they have trained, and succeeded with the breed. They know what works, and where to find it. Lab and other Retriever people can only look in and theorize, based (on who appears to be doing well-who's got the best stats), but that doesn't mean that those dogs will be the best for you. Find someone who has a Chessie you adore; then get their recommendations on where to get one; Trust me they know, every line/every breeding. They'd put lab people to shame with how insistently they watch .


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I just had a litter born today, out of my Caroway's Blazing Hot Chili MH and sired by Sandy Dollar's Cur-San's Dividend SH. Sandy's dog has one MH pass so far and is a couple of points away from his CH as well. This is the last litter out of a really solid producing female. Ad is in the classifieds here. Both dogs are what you're looking for in work ethic and disposition.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Bob Harms said:


> Hi--I am looking or a great breeder of chessie pups--anyone have recommedations? I need the real deal--a high octane chessie ALWAYS willing to retrieve in some on the worst water/weather conditions. Fetching over and over and over, fearless, stamina, willingness to break ice, lots of guts. Larger dog with heavy coat needed. I hunt ducks and geese in Nebraska. I hunt alot in all kinds of situations and locations--marshes and rivers.
> 
> I need a trainable chessie too-I understand the need to meet half way and negotiate with a chessie--I have owned them before. I had to put my last one down 3 years ago and he was AWESOME dog. The one I currently have is a great house dog put seems to lack desire to retrieve in difficult conditions. So I am planning for 2 dogs now.
> 
> ...


PM SENT Bob!!!! Jim


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

I have just the dog you're looking for, smart tough and fearless. Unfortunately he doesn't like anyone but me and on bad days even I'm suspect, be glad to tell you where I got him. LOL


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## Bob Harms (Oct 31, 2013)

Thanks for the recommendation--I sent an E-mail inquiry to Sandy two hours ago.


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## riskyriver (Feb 23, 2010)

Check out www.amchessieclub.org (pup ads, soon to be updated; new ads every two months) and www.teamchesapeake.com (forum and pup ads). Look for a pup w/ several generations of proven working ancestors in the pedigree, health screenings including the genetic testing that we now do, and ask lots of questions about temperment and trainability of the sire and dam. And be prepared to wait awhile for the right pup - very few 'volume' breeders in this breed, and seem to be fewer litters in recent years.


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## Scott R. (Mar 13, 2012)

Sharon Potter said:


> I just had a litter born today, out of my Caroway's Blazing Hot Chili MH and sired by Sandy Dollar's Cur-San's Dividend SH. Sandy's dog has one MH pass so far and is a couple of points away from his CH as well. This is the last litter out of a really solid producing female. Ad is in the classifieds here. Both dogs are what you're looking for in work ethic and disposition.
> 
> View attachment 15759


Looks like a really nice litter Sharon.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Here's where you start. Sign up and start chatting away- Linda Harger amongst other top FT Chessie owners/breeders are regular contributors to the page. RTF isn't the best resource for Chessie owners. 

http://teamchesapeake.infopop.cc/groupee/forums


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

We have a Ball Bluff Kennels Chessie! www.ballbluff.com They have really healthy, big, sturdy Chessies that are great hunters and have amazing temperments too. The breeder's name is Vicki Lehman and they're located in Jacobson, MN. Vicki is amazingly helpful with whatever questions you may have, and they even have a facebook group you can join to interact with other owners of Ball Bluff dogs.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Also, our Ball Bluff's Chessie is great with the kids...we have 4, (1yr -10 yr olds) .


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

There aren't any/many kennels which continually have litters available which are performance dogs. Most of the time you should be expecting a waiting list. 

Don't buy a Chessie without the following test information on both parents- If you want, get on the Chessie page and start up a chat about the tests and what they mean and why we do them. 

DM (breed specific horrific disease easily checked and avoided)
EIC (exercise induced collapse)
PRA (progressive retinal atrophy, dog will go blind young if affected)
HIPS
ELBOWS

These are all low cost tests. Any breeder who is worth two cents will be doing them all unless they are giving away their pups and/or selling them in the little nickel.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> There aren't any/many kennels which continually have litters available which are performance dogs. Most of the time you should be expecting a waiting list.
> 
> Don't buy a Chessie without the following test information on both parents- If you want, get on the Chessie page and start up a chat about the tests and what they mean and why we do them.
> 
> ...


Some excellent post on this thread. Very good advice.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

I have 2 breedings posted in the Puppy forum. 
The first one is out of my Master hunter bitch bred to a MH with some field trial ribbons. 
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?101573-(MD)-Ruff-MH-X-Gracie-MH

The other is a repeat breeding by my hunting dog who is also MH with a Q 3rd. 2 of the pups from the first litter earned Sh and are running in master. 1 has master passes. 
http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...Thor-MH-repeat-Breeding&p=1157297#post1157297


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

j towne said:


> I have 2 breedings posted in the Puppy forum.
> The first one is out of my Master hunter bitch bred to a MH with some field trial ribbons.
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?101573-(MD)-Ruff-MH-X-Gracie-MH
> 
> ...



I noticed that your ads do not address DM. What is the DM status of the sire and bitch?


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## Paul Frey (Jun 15, 2012)

try www.teamchesapeake.com


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Pals said:


> I noticed that your ads do not address DM. What is the DM status of the sire and bitch?


I'm not familiar with Chessie issues. What is DM short for I would like to research it. Thanks.


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

DM is short for degenerative myelopathy, a disease similar to ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease in humans.

Good place to start your research is http://www.chesapeakebayretriever.info/dm.htm

T. Mac


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

Pals said:


> I noticed that your ads do not address DM. What is the DM status of the sire and bitch?


I also would encourage you to steer clear of any puppy ads where the DM status of both the sire and the dam are not explicitly stated. DM is a terrible disease and avoidable given proper breeding practices. There are "breeders" who continue to breed at-risk to unknown or at-risk to carriers or carriers-to-carriers, justifying their behavior by pointing to the small gene pool in Chessies or how accomplished and awesome their dogs are. The practice is frowned upon by the American Chesapeake Club, but other than talking to the "breeders" to discourage them there is not much else the club can do. Just find and look at the video of that great dog Distagon who died of DM. That should clarify the isssue for you.


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## ginnyr (Sep 25, 2007)

Bob Harms said:


> Hi--I am looking or a great breeder of chessie pups--anyone have recommedations? I need the real deal--a high octane chessie ALWAYS willing to retrieve in some on the worst water/weather conditions. Fetching over and over and over, fearless, stamina, willingness to break ice, lots of guts. Larger dog with heavy coat needed. I hunt ducks and geese in Nebraska. I hunt alot in all kinds of situations and locations--marshes and rivers.
> 
> I need a trainable chessie too-I understand the need to meet half way and negotiate with a chessie--I have owned them before. I had to put my last one down 3 years ago and he was AWESOME dog. The one I currently have is a great house dog put seems to lack desire to retrieve in difficult conditions. So I am planning for 2 dogs now.
> 
> ...


Hi Bob, Not certain what sex you are looking for but there is at least one female available from Lefty's litter the ad is on RTF classifieds. Lefty is a larger chessie who is CLEAR on PRA prcd, DM, EIC, HIPs excellent, re Cerf yearly, Skin fragility normal, long coat free, and additionally other health clearances. Lefty is on the larger size, the female is a really nice bitch who is hunted in Maryland. Lefty was sired by BLAZE who was a very friendly male and Lefty is very friendly too. I can say many things about my dog Lefty and the dam of the litter but I am biased and this is not the place to put an ad. SO far his offspring seem to have great temperaments. please see the contact in the litter ad here on RTF.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

chesaka said:


> There are "breeders" who continue to breed at-risk to unknown or at-risk to carriers or carriers-to-carriers, justifying their behavior by pointing to the small gene pool in Chessies or how accomplished and awesome their dogs are. The practice is frowned upon by the American Chesapeake Club,


Actually the genetics experts consulted by the American Chesapeake Club advised that we DO breed these dogs, precisely because of the devastating effect to the gene pool if we don't. The stud book is closed, and we can never expand the gene pool; we can only try to slow its shrinkage. Dr. Long and Dr. Bell specifically state that including a "clear" parent in every breeding, a strategy that would lower the incidence of the disease to nearly zero, would damage the population. Many of us who breed, however, do not want to knowingly produce "at risk" dogs, so we seek one clear parent contrary to the expert advice.

Anyone interested can read about the ACC DM project on the Club "health" page here: http://amchessieclub.org/health/health.html

Amy Dahl


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

+1 on Linda Harger!!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> +1 on Linda Harger!!


You checked on that waiting list lately John? lol..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

afdahl said:


> Actually the genetics experts consulted by the American Chesapeake Club advised that we DO breed these dogs, precisely because of the devastating effect to the gene pool if we don't. The stud book is closed, and we can never expand the gene pool; we can only try to slow its shrinkage. Dr. Long and Dr. Bell specifically state that including a "clear" parent in every breeding, a strategy that would lower the incidence of the disease to nearly zero, would damage the population. Many of us who breed, however, do not want to knowingly produce "at risk" dogs, so we seek one clear parent contrary to the expert advice.
> 
> Anyone interested can read about the ACC DM project on the Club "health" page here: http://amchessieclub.org/health/health.html
> 
> Amy Dahl


That is a bit of a stretch on words that he said, "WE DO Breed affected dogs". The article says not to exclude them completely and recommended if you did breed an affected dog you chose a clear dog as it's mate. 

Page 3 top left first paragraph
http://amchessieclub.org/PDFs/Degen_Myelo_article.pdf

This is a must read for all who have any interest. It's not the holy grail but, about all we have at this time. Lots of questions yet to be answered which makes it even more important for breeders to be responsible about producing affected dogs. As also stated, it is equally important we test all our dogs at a young age and report the tests so they can be used for research. Those who omit reporting testing basically are the same as those who omit to share results of hips and elbows. Usually because they don't want folks to know the answer and it's easier to have a conversation and glass over those issues to people who don't know or understand. We've all seen it happen.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

T. Mac said:


> DM is short for degenerative myelopathy, a disease similar to ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease in humans.
> 
> Good place to start your research is http://www.chesapeakebayretriever.info/dm.htm
> 
> T. Mac


Thanks T. Mac I will read your link.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Look at the litters posted. Call the breeders and talk to them and educate yourself. Some breeder will leave stuff out of adds so you will call and are open with the information. I personally leave the price and dm results out if my adds. Not because I'm hiding anything I am very open about it but you have to call me and personally talk to me about my dogs not listen to someone from god knows where repeat rumors about them.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> That is a bit of a stretch on words that he said, "WE DO Breed affected dogs". The article says not to exclude them completely and recommended if you did breed an affected dog you chose a clear dog as it's mate.


I stand corrected; that is what Dr. Long said. It was Dr. Bell who advised that we not restrict ourselves to only breedings that include one "clear" parent:

*Is the result of this test for one gene for DM enough to advise breeders to only breed only Carrier and At-Risk dogs to only normals?*
No. While this recommendation guarantees that no DM affected dogs will be produced, it also requires that all matings be conducted with at least one member of a class of 42% of your gene pool. This significantly skews the gene pool in their direction, and reduces the influence of almost 60% of the breed’s gene pool. For a disease that affects less than one in one-hundred Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, this severe a restriction on breeding will significantly limit the breed’s genetic diversity.

/Dr. Bell

Of course, everything in perspective. We may be doing more damage (to diversity) with OFA and overuse of popular sires than we would by striving not to produce "at risk" puppies.

Amy Dahl


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

For those whom keep saying an affected developed from a clear / That was not in a CBR. 

Tim Lockards case is the only documented CBR (post mortem) which was tested as carrier and developed DM.(affected) 

A note from Team Chesapeake Discussion- 
Mike, I owned the Chesapeake bitch that was first "DM Carrier" of ANY breed to be "Affected" with the Disease.
The only way to confirm a diagosis of DM is the examination of the spinal tissues.
It would be very helpful in the advance of the research studies to be able to study older dogs that tested Carrier or Affected regardless of whether the dogs show signs of the disease.
I recommend contacting the researchers at U.of Missouri if a dog
may possibly meet their needs.
Progress in research is not going to progress without tissue samples!
Donate to Health/Research when renewing ACC dues in the memory of "Tiger".


With some of the attitudes towards DM I've seen, there should be plenty of affected tissue samples becoming available for researches in the next 5-10 years. Pretty sad deal. This is a lot like the people who were early to scoff at PRA testing and/or those who said it was, "a show dog disease". Well, it's coming up in both now because of the oversight on testing or, lack of care to have the knowledge of the dog status prior to breeding. 

This is a great discussion which was held on the Team Chesapeake board regarding DM. If you note, many of the contributors have 20+ years experience breeding and competing. 

http://teamchesapeake.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/40660554/m/4980067666/p/1

Lastly, the researchers have a particular opinion about animal husbandry. They represent their findings as if there are "Chesapeake Kennels" breeding a constant flow of animals. I find this to be true of many lab situations and possibly other breeds although, it is rare in Chesapeake circles. (of active performance dogs) The trend I've seen the most is one stud may become popular but, he's being bred to such a variety of bitches from different lines the bottle necking effect would be limited. The researchers conclusions base their comments upon their pre-conceived notions that we all have the same bitch lines and are breeding to the same popular stud. In the lab world, that's probably fairly valid for top level performance dogs. We all know the names and they often are posted in re-occurring title themes here on RTF. That just isn't the case with CBR's. 

Those relatively few performance bitches have owners who must put mind numbing amounts of thought into whom they'll select for their sire. I certainly don't fall into that category and neither do 95% of bitch owners. (maybe higher?)


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

Alan Sandifer is going to do a repeat breeding of Rudy and Fatty early 14......I have a pup from the first litter and I'm very pleased.........

He he jammed the the Chessie specialty derby at 9 months old......

Pm me if interested.........

Link to video the day I picked him up....

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...6-Chessie-Retrieve&highlight=Chessie+retrieve


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

afdahl said:


> For a disease that affects less than one in one-hundred Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, this severe a restriction on breeding will significantly limit the breed’s genetic diversity.
> 
> /Dr. Bell
> 
> ...


Well, I personally know Tim Lockard who had the one Chesapeake known to have tested as a carrier and then become affected. What are the odds of that? Anyone good with math?


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## Ryaneder1 (Jul 15, 2013)

Sharon Potter I have heard great things about, I know she is a regular contributor on this forum! Otherwise, my personal experience is with Goldeneyes Chesapeakes in Forest City, IA. Chuck Bolinger has been raising Chesapeakes for nearly 30 years and has exceptional dogs. He is not as active in the hunt test/trial stuff anymore, but his dogs are gorgeous, healthy, trainable and all around nice dogs.


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Well, I personally know Tim Lockard who had the one Chesapeake known to have tested as a carrier and then become affected. What are the odds of that? Anyone good with math?


 Last year everyone was arguing that a carrier could not become affected, now we have at least one. The bottom line is we need more research on this because with the fact that a carrier can also be affected it leaves a very small number of breed able stock if you want to be sure you are not adding affected dogs (only breeding clear x clear). Who knows maybe next year someone will have a clear also confirmed affected, the point being is the test leaves a lot to be desired and the ones who think it is the end all test are as bad as the ones who ignore it.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

I am far from a cheesie person . But if I was going to purchase a cheesie I would start with Sandy Dollar. Education and integrity would take me in that direction. Sandy is a straight up lady that will tell it like it is. She has my respect.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

classact2731 said:


> Last year everyone was arguing that a carrier could not become affected, now we have at least one. The bottom line is we need more research on this because with the fact that a carrier can also be affected it leaves a very small number of breed able stock if you want to be sure you are not adding affected dogs (only breeding clear x clear). Who knows maybe next year someone will have a clear also confirmed affected, the point being is the test leaves a lot to be desired and the ones who think it is the end all test are as bad as the ones who ignore it.


 The dog that was a carrier that became affected, along with dog(s) of another breed that were carriers and were diagnosed with DM post-mortem, *got a mutation of the disease that is extremely rare and not the textbook cases that responsible breeders are trying to avoid*. In point of fact, Im far from the DM police and can even see the case being made for a special breeding that might produce DM **IF** both parents were outstanding specimens of the breed and of a bloodline not readily available elsewhere. However, the guilty parties who breed multiple litters knowingly producing dogs that are at risk, not just one litter but multiple litters, are the ones with the substandard dogs and ethics. Once, for a special breeding, maybe; otherwise it's unethical and hateful--to the breed and the poor unsuspecting owners that have been huckstered into buying the dogs.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

classact2731 said:


> Last year everyone was arguing that a carrier could not become affected, now we have at least one. The bottom line is we need more research on this because with the fact that a carrier can also be affected it leaves a very small number of breed able stock if you want to be sure you are not adding affected dogs (only breeding clear x clear). Who knows maybe next year someone will have a clear also confirmed affected, the point being is the test leaves a lot to be desired and the ones who think it is the end all test are as bad as the ones who ignore it.


I don't know anyone who would condemn a highly experienced trainer and breeder who bred a winning, titled exception affected dog responsibly. Condemnation comes with breeding average to below average untitled, untested dogs repeatedly.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

wojo said:


> I am far from a cheesie person .


LOL, Ed....you sound plenty "cheesie" to me!


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Julie R. said:


> The dog that was a carrier that became affected, along with dog(s) of another breed that were carriers and were diagnosed with DM post-mortem, *got a mutation of the disease that is extremely rare and not the textbook cases that responsible breeders are trying to avoid*. In point of fact, Im far from the DM police and can even see the case being made for a special breeding that might produce DM **IF** both parents were outstanding specimens of the breed and of a bloodline not readily available elsewhere. However, the guilty parties who breed multiple litters knowingly producing dogs that are at risk, not just one litter but multiple litters, are the ones with the substandard dogs and ethics. Once, for a special breeding, maybe; otherwise it's unethical and hateful--to the breed and the poor unsuspecting owners that have been huckstered into buying the dogs.


Can you please refer me to where I can find this info? In any case carrier *can be affected* there is no known percentage of at risk that become affected and not all do so is it any different to produce carriers if you think there is a chance that they may become affected or is that ok. I keep hearing in all these discussions the same theme, that people would never produce a breeding that might produce a puppy that could have a chance of becoming affected. Well that chance is there with carriers too so by most people that should be out also. That does not leave much to work with We need to work toward better tests and less speculation.


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I don't know anyone who would condemn a highly experienced trainer and breeder who bred a winning, titled exception affected dog responsibly. Condemnation comes with breeding average to below average untitled, untested dogs repeatedly.


It is either wrong or right can't be both. I have seen dogs running field trials that I would love to own and some I would not. The same for hunting dogs and I would bet some that I like you would not and vise versa, so who will decide which ones don't have to abide by the no At risk policy? I just think we need more research before we condone or condemn either side.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Well, I personally know Tim Lockard who had the one Chesapeake known to have tested as a carrier and then become affected. What are the odds of that? Anyone good with math?


I'm very good at math, but you can't calculate a probability from a single instance. At this point the instance of carriers with clinical DM appears low; I don't see it as a reason to avoid producing carriers.

Your dismissal of the advice against overuse of a few sires is speculative, unfounded, and in my opinion, destructive. It is the nature of scientific study to be aware of the assumptions that bear on the applicability of a model. I've followed Dr. Bell's writing for years. Population genetics of purebred dogs is his specialty, not livestock or anything else. And while Labs dominate the retriever world, there's no reason to assume they dominate the dog genetics world. They are just one breed among many.

Your contentions that Chesapeake bitches represent great genetic diversity and that our breed is not subject to loss of diversity from popular sire syndrome are both incorrect. It wouldn't matter and I'd be happy to "respect everyone's opinion," except that it's potentially harmful. The more people discount population genetics, the faster our breed will descend into being an inbred mess with problems we are unable to breed away from.

Amy Dahl


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes, and your following of one persons writings and not another's is also speculative and something which you've chosen to side with your personal opinion on the matter. How many affected bitches are currently carrying field trial titles?


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yes, and your following of one persons writings and not another's is also speculative and something which you've chosen to side with your personal opinion on the matter. How many affected bitches are currently carrying field trial titles?


How many chessie's currently have a field trial titles? I can only name 3. I might be missing some.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Yes, and your following of one persons writings and not another's is also speculative and something which you've chosen to side with your personal opinion on the matter. How many affected bitches are currently carrying field trial titles?


Rather than take the misunderstandings in this point by point, I'll try to restate my point in different words.

For those of us not well-versed in population genetics, the dog genetics researchers we've chosen to advise us (Dr. Long and Dr. Bell) are our most authoritative source. Based on my background in science, I assure you that while individual scientists may or may not be likable or even ethical in their personal lives, they are scrupulously responsible in dealing with information. As professionals in handling information, they can be counted on to be careful about the premises that underlie their recommendations, and not to "talk through their hats." In addition to this general endorsement, I happen to be familiar with the work of one of them (Dr. Bell), who has for many years helped interpret genetics for dog breeders and distill new findings into recommendations for good breeding practices. I am familiar with him because he has published a lot of articles in the AKC Gazette and other dog publications. I have read some of Dr. Long's work but am less familiar with him as an interpreter of science for the layperson.

When consultants of the stature of Dr. Bell and Dr. Long tell us that the popular sire syndrome is the greatest threat to diversity in dog breeding, I take that seriously and use it as a factor in breeding decisions. I encourage others to do so as well. I urge anyone who wants to pit speculation against the advice of our knowledgeable consultants to be aware of the possible detrimental effect of careless talk on the breed, and to restrain or qualify their public comments.

Please do not take anything I have said as trying to pit Dr. Bell against Dr. Long or to impugn the qualifications of either.

Can't tell you the DM status of titled bitches in the breed, a fact which has no bearing on the above.

Amy Dahl


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Ha! Poor Bob is just looking for a pup. I wonder if there are other threads somewhere to fight about DM?


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

achiro said:


> Ha! Poor Bob is just looking for a pup. I wonder if there are other threads somewhere to fight about DM?


And you don't think this is an important consideration for someone "just looking for a pup"?

JS


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

JS said:


> And you don't think this is an important consideration for someone "just looking for a pup"?
> 
> JS


I think letting someone know about which health issues to look for is important but putting them through the never ending debate when all they've ask for is puppy advise isn't. He asked for advise toward a breeding/breeder and it is already lost in the middle of all these pages of words.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Amy, if popular sire syndrome is occurring or is a major threat to bottle necking why isnt factual information/ statistics included in their paper to support the fact? It is science? Without factual study based upon actual conditions and population statistic it is speculation and opinion. There are facts in the paper and there are conclusions being "assumed" which lack direct supporting evidence. Where are the numbers and facts which support the recommendation? 

It it would be interesting to know for sure how many affected sires are skipped in breeding versus clear sires of same titles and accomplishments. That could gain some basis for a scientific conclusion.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Amy, if popular sire syndrome is occurring or is a major threat to bottle necking why isnt factual information/ statistics included in their paper to support the fact? It is science? Without factual study based upon actual conditions and population statistic it is speculation and opinion. There are facts in the paper and there are conclusions being "assumed" which lack direct supporting evidence. Where are the numbers and facts which support the recommendation?
> 
> It it would be interesting to know for sure how many affected sires are skipped in breeding versus clear sires of same titles and accomplishments. That could gain some basis for a scientific conclusion.


I only know the basics of population genetics, so cannot give a detailed explanation. I can answer the question of why Dr. Long didn't address popular sire syndrome in his paper. The reason is that it's textbook population genetics, researched, supported, repeated, and settled long ago. A research paper reports new information, regarding one specific study, in this case identifying one gene necessary (but not sufficient) for development of DM. Dr. Long only answered a few questions relating the study results to the practice of dog breeding. He called upon general population genetics knowledge to answer them but the popular sire question didn't come up.

The questions collected by ACC and submitted to Dr. Bell were much more comprehensive and the popular sire issue did come up. It's a matter of not wanting to be "penny wise and pound foolish," salvaging a little diversity by breeding DM-at-risk dogs while destroying much more diversity by using one stud over and over and over.

Amy Dahl


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

classact2731 said:


> Can you please refer me to where I can find this info? In any case carrier *can be affected* there is no known percentage of at risk that become affected and not all do so is it any different to produce carriers if you think there is a chance that they may become affected or is that ok. I keep hearing in all these discussions the same theme, that people would never produce a breeding that might produce a puppy that could have a chance of becoming affected. Well that chance is there with carriers too so by most people that should be out also. That does not leave much to work with We need to work toward better tests and less speculation.


 I agree, it would be helpful to know how many at risk dogs become affected, but I suspect that information will be hard to get as how many people are going to have their dogs necropsied and spinal tissue saved? Then there's the problem that many vets are just not familiar with the disease since it's rare except in certain breeds. So many vets (and owners) assume it's hips/arthritis when an older dog starts showing DM-like symptoms and/or losing use of its back legs. Not that much different from before there was a test or the knowledge of the high incidence of it in CBRs. Ask anyone who's had a lot of CBRs for many years and most will tell you of a dog they know suspect had DM, but they thought it was just arthritis. Right now the test for one of the genes involved in the study of the common form of DM is all we have. It's a tool, not a mandate but only the irresponsible are ignoring it so they can satisfy their egos while producing hundreds of at risk animals. There is a BIG difference in doing a special breeding of two outstanding dogs that might produce affecteds with bloodlines not readily available in other clear or carrier dogs vs. recklessly breeding mediocre at-risk dogs multiple times to other at risk, carrier and untested dogs. Likewise, it's also reckless to only ever breed clear to clear and base breeding decisions on clearances only.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Bob sound like a smart guy. The Chesapeake field trial specialty just ended. Look at the open and amateur stakes and go back to the breeders and look at the pedigree see how many have common sires or dams. Good breeders are not always going to post and puff their dogs up. They usually have people waiting. 

I personally and it is just my opinion stay away from breeders who are breeding DM at risk or don't care about it. Just my opinion and it could mean nothing


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## GilWlsn (Jan 18, 2008)

When is the specialty over. I have a message out to someone that was probably there and don't want to keep leaving messages if there probably not home


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

GilWlsn said:


> When is the specialty over. I have a message out to someone that was probably there and don't want to keep leaving messages if there probably not home


The specialty is over. Some people stayed for the Palmetto trial.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

achiro said:


> I think letting someone know about which health issues to look for is important but putting them through the never ending debate when all they've ask for is puppy advise isn't. He asked for advise toward a breeding/breeder and it is already lost in the middle of all these pages of words.


Welcome back to the Chesapeake world Russ. As you can see, some things never change. A post inquiring about litters turns into this mess. Never fails. Problem for the OP, the best litters are sold out before the breedings ever take place. That's not to say you can't find a good dog out there.

Thank you Amy. Great posts, as usual. Wish I could be as eloquent as you.

As the owner of a male carrier, it is frustrating Paul. Lot's of people on a list for one of his pups, but only one breeding recently. To have your phone ringing often with inquiries after his Derby career, to stop ringing after his DM status was obtained is insane. Also, having a successful male in this part of the country, can land you on the "blacklist".


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Andy Symons said:


> As the owner of a male carrier, it is frustrating Paul. Lot's of people on a list for one of his pups, but only one breeding recently. To have your phone ringing often with inquiries after his Derby career, to stop ringing after his DM status was obtained is insane. Also, having a successful male in this part of the country, can land you on the "blacklist".


Andy, I have almost the opposite problem. I have a DM clear bitch who turned 7 this year and has not produced a litter. I have wanted for a long time to use her with a quality stud that is little used. Three attempts have cost me a lot of money and produced no puppies. Is she even capable of having a litter? There's a possible alternative explanation in each case. The first attempt they just penned her up with the stud dog. She could have stood poorly (typical of my bitches) or the dog might have been sterile--the owner is not the type to do a fertility check (or supervise the breeding). Second attempt we know the dog was sterile. Nice dog, too. Third attempt, a side by side with a dog who has missed some in the past.

So I figured the next attempt has to be live cover with a dog that is young and local. Looking for a stud who's nearly certain to produce, and minimal expenses. I planned to breed to my husband's youngster Dragline. He has made a poor showing in his last couple of trials but is a very smart, trainable, talented dog. Just turned 2. She came in October 25. I waited until after the Specialty to get Dragline's hips x-rayed, hoping they'd be unambiguously good. They're not. Vet thinks they'll most likely pass, but not for sure. 

Aaargh! I could use this bitch to promote a little-used stud, but I need to know if she can have puppies before dropping another big bunch of money, and before she gets too old.

Amy Dahl


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I have a male carrier. I really don't expect a few green ribbons and a fourth place in the qual will make the phone start ringing if he was clear and had excellent hips. There are far nicer dogs out there to chose regardless of DM status. 

Amy, as for you struggles it sounds familiar to my first attempts with kaie. Since, I religiously have done calendar documentation and progesterone through her cycles. Even on two where I was not breeding her. With the stud I had him collected prior to breeding for sperm evaluation and started her on a few supplements and a medication recommended by my vet. The only problem occurred breeding was the old throw them together trick. Only one tie then added a Side by side. Nothing took . Since, with progesterone testing on her and checking the sires viability first I've not had an issue. I believe constant progesterone testing even when no breeding is planned was helpful too.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Andy I have a male clear of everything excellent hips. All age qualified, master hunter, five show points and one major and they are not knocking the door down to breed. 

What was interesting at the field specialty if I were a breeder I would have been glued to the open and amateur stakes. The breeders went to watch older males running the qual or the derby. Go figure. If the dog is four and up running the qual I'm not sure I would be watching if I wanted a field line in my dog.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

moscowitz said:


> Andy I have a male clear of everything excellent hips. All age qualified, master hunter, five show points and one major and they are not knocking the door down to breed.
> 
> What was interesting at the field specialty if I were a breeder I would have been glued to the open and amateur stakes. The breeders went to watch older males running the qual or the derby. Go figure. If the dog is four and up running the qual I'm not sure I would be watching if I wanted a field line in my dog.


I tried to get over to the open and amateur when I could because I was also looking for future stud dogs. 

Mike of all the males that earned a ribbon at the specialty in the Q, Am., and Open I can only find 2 that test clear for DM your dog Larry and Buddy's dog Ruff. Gracie was bred to both of them.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Hey Nick just met Buddy at the specialty really nice guy. For a hunt test dog he did great


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

moscowitz said:


> Andy I have a male clear of everything excellent hips. All age qualified, master hunter, five show points and one major and they are not knocking the door down to breed.
> 
> What was interesting at the field specialty if I were a breeder I would have been glued to the open and amateur stakes. The breeders went to watch older males running the qual or the derby. Go figure. If the dog is four and up running the qual I'm not sure I would be watching if I wanted a field line in my dog.


 Are you kidding? I know I'm not the only breeder that watched as much as I could at both AA stakes and there was a lot to like there. I only have one DM clear female though, the rest are carriers. Definitely more options out there if you have a clear female.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

moscowitz said:


> Andy I have a male clear of everything excellent hips. All age qualified, master hunter, five show points and one major and they are not knocking the door down to breed.


X2 on this; These dog are out there and just aren't bred; I've a Friend with DM Clear-OFAExcellent(hips elbow-cardiac), MH (20 something passes), Rarer lines at least (I couldn't find them, when he was look for his next pup(ArDel something), Dog died of old age @ 14yrs, I ran him and passed him in a MH test @13, he hunted until the end. No muscle degeneration, never lost his hearing, and never got a breeding. I think I convinced the owner into getting some frozen for his own use, so hopefully I'll see a few of his get, one of these days. If I ever were to be tempted to go smelly&fuzzy; it'd would be for one of his pups. Hard to complain about a genetic bottlenecks; or the conditions associated with them; if one refuses to expand.


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