# "Four" Labrador colors.......



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

On another board there was a discussion about Lab colors. One poster quoted a website that said there were FOUR colors of Labs.

I have posted the quote from the website here.

"Well, that’s where genetics comes in. But before we get into all of that, did you know Labs come in 4 colors? Yep, and I’m not talking about the “designer” dogs in silver or polar bear white. You’ve probably even seen all 4 colors and didn’t realize it.

So what are they? Well, there’s black. No surprise there. There’s also chocolate. Again, no surprise. Then we get to the yellow. Yellow has a “yellow” coat –with shades from pale cream to rich fox red—but they also have a black nose and eye rims. The fourth color looks like a yellow at first glance, but they have a chocolate nose and eye rims. These are called Dudleys and they carry the genes for both chocolate and yellow."

So, what do you think? Misleading? Intentionally misleading? Or just doesn't have a clue?

WRL


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

I've never heard dudley referred to as a specific color before


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## mudflapimmc (Feb 28, 2008)

I lean towards " doesn't have a clue "


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

Doesnt have a clue. Coat is still Yellow.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I had a Dudley once and got rid of the dog. He was not any good for field. A dudley is not a desirable trait. Breeders need to be aware of color genetics and breeding issues that might occur to produce Dudley's. Some can easily sunburn. Canadian Kennel Club does not accept variants too far off. I believe some can be registered but some??? Correct me if I am wrong.


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

I had heard of a planned breeding between a Choc and silver. What would that make?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

wendelb68 said:


> I had heard of a planned breeding between a Choc and silver. What would that make?


A mistake....

Angie


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

mudflapimmc said:


> I lean towards " doesn't have a clue "


I agree, just a chocolate factored yellow. Have you EVER seen this mentioned in either the AKC or UKC Standards?


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Akc three recognized COAT colors. 

some just don't get it.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

metalone67 said:


> Akc three recognized COAT colors.


The coat color isn't wrong, but the pigment is. The pigment in a true Dudley is pink and stays pink and is a disqualification. It is not liver which is commonly thought of as a Dudley. A liver pigmented Yellow can result from the combination of 2 tri-colored blacks.
See pictures and explanation under Dudley which is also found in other breeds. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/yellow-pigment.html


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

The rocket scientist claiming Dudleys are a 4th color for Labs is calling himself Rainmaker on that forum. I'm so thrilled.


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## Marsh Collie (Dec 28, 2011)

Doesn't have a clue !!!!!


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> The rocket scientist claiming Dudleys are a 4th color for Labs is calling himself Rainmaker on that forum. I'm so thrilled.


Ha ha ha....is that like having a "baby"?

WRL


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

WRL said:


> Ha ha ha....is that like having a "baby"?
> 
> WRL


Well, there's John Grisham's "The Rainmaker" and that Rainmaker sprinkler system, so it isn't really "mine", but that Refuge dude hits too close to home, lol. There was even a labradoodle breeder using Rainmaker, about spit when I saw that come up on OFA and couldn't type fast enough to find their kennel to see if any of my dogs were in there.

Dudley as a 4th color, mercy.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

wendelb68 said:


> I had heard of a planned breeding between a Choc and silver. What would that make?


Part Wiem and mutt


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> The rocket scientist claiming Dudleys are a 4th color for Labs is calling himself Rainmaker on that forum. I'm so thrilled.


I'd call the cops, here is one who could help......












.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

WRL said:


> Ha ha ha....is that like having a "baby"?
> 
> WRL


I tracked him down, he does have a dog.
















.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Thank you Nancy. The liver or brown pigment is NOT a Dudley nose. A Dudley is very like an albino rabbit. This is one of the results of breeding chocolates to yellows.

Saw this link advertized in the Jackson, MS paper yesterday. Will make you ill.

www.silverandcharcoalkennels.com


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> I'd call the cops, here is one who could help......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By golly, that's a Dudley alright!


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

You are all wrong because everyone knows silver is the fifth color!


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> The rocket scientist claiming Dudleys are a 4th color for Labs is calling himself Rainmaker on that forum. I'm so thrilled.


Come on, fess up!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

kjrice said:


> You are all wrong because everyone knows silver is the fifth color!


What's funny is the guy says silver is a dilute of chocolate while claiming Dudleys are a 4th color.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

kjrice said:


> Come on, fess up!


If I'm gonna confess, it will have to be for something better than that one, lol.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Cleo Watson said:


> Thank you Nancy. The liver or brown pigment is NOT a Dudley nose. A Dudley is very like an albino rabbit. This is one of the results of breeding chocolates to yellows.
> 
> Saw this link advertized in the Jackson, MS paper yesterday. Will make you ill.
> 
> www.silverandcharcoalkennels.com


They are breeding them-call them Champagnes.


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

I'm planning on advertising my current litter as the "rare" onyx color.

On a lighter note I was wondering what color pups would be if you crossed a golden (not a yellow lab) with a chocolate? I am not planning on doing this, just a curiosity thing.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

North Mountain said:


> I'm planning on advertising my current litter as the "rare" onyx color.
> 
> On a lighter note I was wondering what color pups would be if you crossed a golden (not a yellow lab) with a chocolate? I am not planning on doing this, just a curiosity thing.


Best guess long haired blacks.


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

North Mountain said:


> I'm planning on advertising my current litter as the "rare" onyx color.
> 
> On a lighter note I was wondering what color pups would be if you crossed a golden (not a yellow lab) with a chocolate? I am not planning on doing this, just a curiosity thing.





ErinsEdge said:


> Best guess long haired blacks.


Isn't that a Flatcoat?


:evilbat:


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## Mallard Mugger (Jul 29, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> Thank you Nancy. The liver or brown pigment is NOT a Dudley nose. A Dudley is very like an albino rabbit. This is one of the results of breeding chocolates to yellows.
> 
> Saw this link advertized in the Jackson, MS paper yesterday. Will make you ill.
> 
> www.silverandcharcoalkennels.com


I bit - very painful. I only looked at a pedigree or two, no health clearances listed (of course). Couldn't look further.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

You guys are obviously forgetting the black-dotted white Lab...


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## Kent W (Jun 22, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> Thank you Nancy. The liver or brown pigment is NOT a Dudley nose. A Dudley is very like an albino rabbit. This is one of the results of breeding chocolates to yellows.
> 
> Saw this link advertized in the Jackson, MS paper yesterday. Will make you ill.
> 
> www.silverandcharcoalkennels.com



Yes it did. Not an OFA or CERF mentioned anywhere. Let alone the "colors".


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> I'd call the cops, here is one who could help......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is Canadian eh????


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

The Labrador Retriever by Dorothy Howe refers to the Standard mentioning a "Dudley" nose. It is pink with hardly any pigmentation: since noses get such coloration in the winter on the yellows and some chocolates it is not penalized. A true Dudley nose would be disqualified. Some people hear a term and immediately turn it into something it is not.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> Thank you Nancy. The liver or brown pigment is NOT a Dudley nose. A Dudley is very like an albino rabbit. This is one of the results of breeding chocolates to yellows.
> 
> Saw this link advertized in the Jackson, MS paper yesterday. Will make you ill.
> 
> www.silverandcharcoalkennels.com


The picture of the "Charcoal Lab" just doesn't look right. Something wrong with his head & face, not a Lab's head & face. 

It's amazing how many people are gullible.


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## ARay11 (Dec 23, 2011)

had a guy in my office the other day asking me about a "champagne" lab??? (I have pics up in here of our boy Deac)
I couldnt even respond... asked if he meant "yellow"... looked at me like *I* was the nutsy one and said "no, champagne."
turns out he'd just bought a silver (for $2000) and was wanting "champagne".. I didnt even know they existed.
I do love the earlier post... "Onyx" labs... LOL


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## Andrew Fairchild (May 19, 2011)

I thought the AKC standard has specific colors and pigmentation standards for the nose and eye sockets of yellow labs. I could of misread it.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

You folks are missing a great opportunity! With the new colors come a whole new list of good names instead of Tar and Jett!!!

A charcoal Lab could be "Kingsford"! A champange Lab could be "Dom"! A white Lab could be "Ice" or "Pearl"! A silver Lab could be "Sterling"! Think of the possibilities!!!

Swack


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

ErinsEdge said:


> The coat color isn't wrong, but the pigment is. The pigment in a true Dudley is pink and stays pink and is a disqualification. It is not liver which is commonly thought of as a Dudley. A liver pigmented Yellow can result from the combination of 2 tri-colored blacks.
> See pictures and explanation under Dudley which is also found in other breeds. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/yellow-pigment.html


Is there a genetic basis for the difference? Because I'm looking at this picture:









Labeled as yellow with liver pigment

and this picture:








Labeled as yellow with no pigment - dudley

and not seeing the difference.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

RaeganW said:


> Is there a genetic basis for the difference? Because I'm looking at this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, but pigmentation is more complicated than basic coat color genetics. A true Dudley is non-pigmented meaning devoid of pigment and pink. A liver nose has pigment and the AKC and LRC may differ on definition. 

"Nose and skin pigmentation

Because Labrador colouration is controlled by multiple genes, it is possible for recessive genes to emerge some generations later and also there can sometimes be unexpected pigmentation effects to different parts of the body. Pigmentation effects appear in regard to yellow Labradors, and sometimes chocolate, and hence the majority of this section covers pigmentation within the yellow Labrador. The most common places where pigmentation is visible are the nose, lips, gums, feet, tail, and the rims of the eyes, which may be black, brown, light yellow-brown ("liver", caused by having two genes for chocolate),[24] or several other colours. A Labrador can carry genes for a different color, for example a black Labrador can carry recessive chocolate and yellow genes, and a yellow Labrador can carry recessive genes for the other two colors. DNA testing can reveal some aspects of these. Less common pigmentations (other than pink) are a fault, not a disqualification, and hence such dogs are still permitted to be shown.[24] The intensity of black pigment on yellow Labradors is controlled by a separate gene independent of the fur coloring.[24] Yellow Labradors usually have black noses, which may gradually turn pink with age (called "snow nose" or "winter nose"). This is due to a reduction in the enzyme tyrosinase which indirectly controls the production of melanin, a dark coloring. Tyrosinase is temperature dependent—hence light colouration can be seasonal, due to cold weather—and is less produced with increasing age two years old onwards. As a result, the nose color of most yellow Labradors becomes a somewhat pink shade as they grow older.[24]

A colouration known as "Dudley" is also possible. Dudleys are variously defined as yellow Labradors which have unpigmented (pink) noses (LRC), yellow with liver/chocolate pigmentation (AKC), or "flesh coloured" in addition to having the same colour around the rims of the eye, rather than having black or dark brown pigmentation.[12][24] A yellow Labrador with brown or chocolate pigmentation, for example, a brown or chocolate nose, is not necessarily a Dudley, though according to the AKC's current standard it would be if it has chocolate rims around the eyes (or more accurately of the genotype eebb). Breed standards for Labradors considers a true Dudley to be a disqualifying feature in a conformation show Lab, such as one with a thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment along with flesh coloured rims around the eyes. True Dudleys are extremely rare.[24][25]

Breeding in order to correct pigmentation often lacks dependability. Because colour is determined by many genes, some of which are recessive, crossbreeding a pigmentation non-standard yellow Labrador to a black Labrador may not correct the matter or prevent future generations carrying the same recessive genes. For similar reasons, crossbreeding chocolate to yellow Labradors is also often avoided.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

and I'm getting ready to advertise the first ever litter of pointing Chesapeakes......


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> and I'm getting ready to advertise the first ever litter of pointing Chesapeakes......


How about pointing Chesadoodles?


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## Dale (Dec 21, 2003)

In the book Advanced Labrador Breeding by Mary Roslin Williams she talks about a rare and seldom seen color. Referred to as Hailstone. How come some of these designer people haven't pick up on that one?


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## Laura McCaw (Jul 28, 2010)

Very interesting. Never heard of Hailstone mentioned until now so I looked it up and found this.
http://www.caccia.se/Labrador_Hailstone_Labs_5.htm


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## Dale (Dec 21, 2003)

Laura McCaw said:


> Very interesting. Never heard of Hailstone mentioned until now so I looked it up and found this.
> http://www.caccia.se/Labrador_Hailstone_Labs_5.htm


Yep same as my book except the one I have is printed in english. Same picture too.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Cleo Watson said:


> Thank you Nancy. The liver or brown pigment is NOT a Dudley nose. A Dudley is very like an albino rabbit. This is one of the results of breeding chocolates to yellows.
> 
> Saw this link advertized in the Jackson, MS paper yesterday. Will make you ill.
> 
> www.silverandcharcoalkennels.com


Cleo, you mean you didn't get right on the phone to book a breeding of one of your nice chocolates to their studly 140 lb. charcoal male? roflmao


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## Laura McCaw (Jul 28, 2010)

Dale said:


> Yep same as my book except the one I have is printed in english. Same picture too.


Check this one out, it is more in the recent years. Very interesting to see *hailstorm* markings come up in a whole litter like the OP had said.
http://www.labradorforums.co.uk/ftopic-74814-0.html


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## Heaventree (Mar 13, 2012)

There are three. A champagne labrador is not a Dudley. A Dudley lacks pigment completely... pink nose and pink eye rims like the day they were born. However, I am now wondering if Champagne Labradors (yellow labs with liver noses and eye rims) are actually chocolate labs in yellow coats. I bred a yellow lab female to a black male (son of a six-time world champion). I kept a black female. The sire was DNA for black and carried chocolate. I bred the black female to a yellow male, who also carried chocolate. They just had their first litter of pups. I ended up with 2 blacks, 1 chocolate, 1 fox-red/dark yellow, and 2 very light creams with liver noses and eye rims with bluish green eyes. I looked them up and some breeders are calling them Champagne and say that it's from a dilute gene like their silvers. I still firmly believe that silvers are not 100% true labs, but the Champagne's have me stumped. If they are so rare, as everyone claims, why do I have two out of a litter of six when I wasn't even trying to breed them? Also, it leads me to believe that they are rare (since they are not Dudley's) and I was wondering if anyone has true knowledge of genetics to explain them? Their pics can be viewed at my website, Heaventree Creek Labradors under the puppies tab. The pics are when they were 4.5 weeks old, and they do not have pink noses (camera light may make it look that way). Thanks for any info!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

HT ,Have you had your A gene tested on you dogs, it's suppose to predict the different colors of yellow. A regulates the expression of the red coloration, whether light or dark. I read that a few labs were offering the A type with the E locus, (U o Davis did it with my last Yellow test) It might explain your Champlain. I don't think they've proven the Silver dilution gene yet, which would explain silvers, but not where that silver came from, whether it was hidden in the Lab genome, or reintroduced. It'd be nice to see some studies on this.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Heaventree said:


> There are three. A champagne labrador is not a Dudley. A Dudley lacks pigment completely... pink nose and pink eye rims like the day they were born. However, I am now wondering if Champagne Labradors (yellow labs with liver noses and eye rims) are actually chocolate labs in yellow coats. I bred a yellow lab female to a black male (son of a six-time world champion). I kept a black female. The sire was DNA for black and carried chocolate. I bred the black female to a yellow male, who also carried chocolate. They just had their first litter of pups. I ended up with 2 blacks, 1 chocolate, 1 fox-red/dark yellow, and 2 very light creams with liver noses and eye rims with bluish green eyes. I looked them up and some breeders are calling them Champagne and say that it's from a dilute gene like their silvers. I still firmly believe that silvers are not 100% true labs, but the Champagne's have me stumped. If they are so rare, as everyone claims, why do I have two out of a litter of six when I wasn't even trying to breed them? Also, it leads me to believe that they are rare (since they are not Dudley's) and I was wondering if anyone has true knowledge of genetics to explain them? Their pics can be viewed at my website, Heaventree Creek Labradors under the puppies tab. The pics are when they were 4.5 weeks old, and they do not have pink noses (camera light may make it look that way). Thanks for any info!


I don't know about the "champagne" BS since I didn't know that's what they are calling it now, but a yellow with liver nose/eye rims happens because of yellow carrying chocolate factor with no black pigment. Not all choc factored yellows will have the liver pigment, but that's why you are seeing it in yours. Nothing rare or special about it, easy enough to breed for it, if one cares for that combo. http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

I didn't know any better when I got her but this is Maize and she's a Dudley and believe it or not she can hunt and is pretty good at it (to another post made).









Two pups from my first litter. Sire was tri factored. No pigment. Pedigree is SuperTanker, Mustang Man, Classic Black, and Classic Roadster. Got this from the dame.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

If their noses aren't pink, your not hunting enough.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

The "Champagne" that Silver Lab breeders refer to is done by a desire to differentiate their dilute yellows from non-dilute yellows. The name is used regardless of nose pigment (B locus). It's not really a color thing as much as it is a gene thing. So, you wouldn't have what they are calling a "Champagne" unless your yellow was dd at the D locus, a dilute yellow. If you ask me its a stupid name and the pink/grey nose is terribly unsightly. 
A yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow is a yellow...
There, I think that covers all the possible Yellow Lab shades....


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## browndoggirls (Dec 5, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> and I'm getting ready to advertise the first ever litter of pointing Chesapeakes......


LOVE IT!! LOL


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## Haije Volbeda (Apr 6, 2012)

In the netherlands we have also a new collor The silver lab, They are band from the Dutch Labrador society,

Greetings Haije Volbeda,
Netherlands


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