# Master test that is not filling



## HoHum's Retrievers (Mar 22, 2007)

Always hearing about test that fill in a matter of minutes. Always hear about folks that can't find enough tears to enter to title their dog. Well here is your chance. 
The Minneaota Field Trial Association Hunt Test closes at Midnight on Memorial Day Monday. Entries at this moment are quite light. Plenty of room in all stakes for more entries. Find the event on Entry Express.
The club is offering an Owner/Handler Qualifying on Friday, June 7, a Master and a Senior on Saturday, June 8 and. Junior on Sunday, June 9. The stakes are being judged by experienced and fair judges who have high expectations. The grounds are some of the best grounds there are and have been developed and maintained for decades specifically for testing and trialing retrievers.
MFTA is a member club of the MNRC, and MARC, NRC, NARC, and NDC. It is the oldest field trial club west of the Mississippi. 
So here is your opportunity to get into an event. And if one weekend isn't enough for you, the following weekend there is a double master event 20 minutes away at the Central Minnesota Retriever Club. Run well and pick up three master ribbons in 10 days!
Get your entries in and support this event.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

HoHum's Retrievers said:


> Always hearing about test that fill in a matter of minutes. Always hear about folks that can't find enough tears to enter to title their dog. Well here is your chance.
> 
> 
> 
> The stakes are being judged by experienced and fair judges who have high expectations. .


I fully understand your situation and I feel your pain.
Also fully agree with everything in your statement your grounds are spectacular and it's a good club that has hard working members and workers that put on nice well run events.

Unfortunately I've come to understand that the Crux of your problem is the last two words that I quoted about Judges with high expectations.

There are "Pros" who will gladly selfishly hog up 25 or so spots in less than a minute for a test if the judges don't have those same high expectations.

I have seen these same "Pros" drive two or three hundred miles out of their way going right past a test that has Judges with high expectations to go to a test that, in effect, has judges that give away participation ribbons.

These "Pros" realize that by boycotting these events the clubs are either forced to get judges that don't have high expectations or have tests that lose money.

After a few years of being manipulated by these "Pros" we have decided to quit holding Master Tests.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

tigerfan said:


> I fully understand your situation and I feel your pain.
> Also fully agree with everything in your statement your grounds are spectacular and it's a good club that has hard working members and workers that put on nice well run events.
> 
> Unfortunately I've come to understand that the Crux of your problem is the last two words that I quoted about Judges with high expectations.
> ...


Wow, even a tiger and a poacher can agree once in a while.



> "Pros" realize that by boycotting these events the clubs are either forced to get judges that don't have high expectations or have tests that lose money.


This is a problem. Unfortunately discussing it here is a lost cause.


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

Most of our Southern Pros that migrate to Minnesota during the summer, don’t make it up there until after the first of June. That is the problem in most that I am familiar with not running a test at this early date. It does look like 5 of the 8 entered are being pro handled. Where are all the amateurs that complain about not being able to get in test? If you look at the next Weekend , Central MN, you will see a better turnout of mostly southern handlers. My point is things aren’t always as they seem and people are too quick to always blame someone else. If this test had been later, we definitely would have entered our dogs as we support the clubs up there as well as our clubs back home.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

For argument sake. Let's say handlers are not entering because of judges with " High Expectations". The Pros are working within a system that the HT community, the RHTAC and AKC has set the rules and standards. So expect them to consider the judges they are going to run under. It's THEIR JOB. 

There are judges that regularly pass 85 -90 % and there are judges that regularly pass 15 %. Whose right? In my opinion generally neither. I think any given weekend the dogs are just too good to be seeing 15% pass ratios. On the other hand 90% is probably too easy of a test. There is so much subjectivity that's why we call it judging. 

Next question is what do we do about it? Master National is the tail that's wagging this dog. Demand they quit using weekend tests for qualifying and you will see much more parity in judging at the weekend tests.


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## P T Brown (Apr 11, 2017)

A lot of finger pointing for sure. I think you folks are thinking to hard. 

Hunt test people probably haven't noticed that all the Derby's scheduled at Minnesota spring Field Trials have been cancelled due lack of entries. Why ??

I doubt it has anything to do with judging. How about the HS weather we have had in Minnesota this spring ??

That's right!! I've cancelled about half of my training sessions due to snow, rain, cold, and wet grounds. My training group has yet to get together.

A lot of the local people who would normally be all fired up for this test are simply not ready. As many people with younger Derby dogs are similarly not ready.

I am sure there may be other contributing factors, but I'm guessing It's not as sinister as some many think.

I hope enough dogs get entered today to make it worthwhile for MFTA to continue Hunt tests. 

Good luck to those that do run.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

P T Brown said:


> A lot of finger pointing for sure. I think you folks are thinking to hard.
> 
> Hunt test people probably haven't noticed that all the Derby's scheduled at Minnesota spring Field Trials have been cancelled due lack of entries. Why ??
> 
> ...


Weather has played a part but it was the same last summer and fall, a lot of tests in the Midwest were not full. 
A few derbies have canceled but a dog under two with only a few weeks of water work is a little different than the average master age dog with the same.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Gordie, that weekend we will be in Arkansas running an SRS with our two kids who are in college. See you at Central!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Rather than conspiracy theories about tough judges and the lazy whiny HTers avoiding them because they only want participation ribbons, (I know both judges, have run under both, wouldn't think of skipping a MH just because they were the judges), how about, it happens. Not every single person who runs MH is on RTF constantly complaining about not being able to get in to a limited test. It just seems like it. I've never not been fast enough to get into a test that I wanted, when it opened. Lots of times tests don't fill here, for a variety of reasons. Neither of the two MH tests previous in the area, Northern Flight and Lake Country, filled their MH either. Most levels have fairly low entries, not just the MH. It has been a miserable winter and spring up here, maybe some simply haven't been able to train enough yet to waste the entry fees, and aren't in a rush to run until later in the summer. Not everyone is on the Master National qualifying agenda. Some are maybe skipping MFTA to run the double CMRC tests, more bang for the buck if they have to travel, or they are running NF, skipping a weekend then running CMRC, because they don't want to run 3 weekends in a row, etc etc etc. The weekend of the MFTA HT, is the last weekend of the Master Amateur National Invitational, maybe some of the regulars from the area are out there. Some are running SRS, some HRC, some NAHRA, some just aren't ready yet. Yep, when the big-truck southern pros hit the area for real later in the summer, tests likely will start filling up. But conspiracy-theory away, that's far more fun, to throw as many digs at HT and their participants as some can.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Tests that fill in less than 2 minutes are often leaving people on the sidelines. That seems to be the norm in my area. The hunt test world is competitive. The competition takes place on Wednesday night at 8:00. Glad to see that isn't the case everywhere.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

When this thread moved, I thought it was deleted. Glad I still have an outlet for my whining!:-x:razz:;-)


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## Jerryd56 (Feb 12, 2019)

Agreed on all points especially having high expectations for our dogs... I have been involved with the HT game since the 80's and without a doubt there has been a real separation in the "expectations" form various Judges. In my opinion the intent of the game has gotten cloudy from its origin, in the beginning the Pro's were Field Trialers and the guys with pickup trucks and dog crate in the back were Amateurs and had a Game called Hunt Tests and they were fun... Also back then we had to request a premium be sent to us by mail, then mail it back with a check and wait to hear if you made it in the event.. The judges didn't matter because I didn't know who they were anyway.. I did know if my dog picked up the marks cleanly and handled crisply I would pass, if the dog didn't do the work or I made a mistake I would fail.. I do not recall ever feeling as though the judges were trying to drop dogs or setting up some circus event for a series with the intent of tricking a dog or handler. The tests were very straight forward and Judges (most all of the Judges had Field Trial experience) scored them with respect to the fact Amateurs were running the dogs. I also Judge the events and don't know where the conversation of how many should pass or fail comes from, it is fairly simple every dog will not pass or fail. So if you set up tests that cover the requirements and judge it fairly the right number happens.. Some days it may be 60+% other days you won't be close to that number.. I can tell you I have never got home from judging and thought I passed or failed to many dogs, I simply set up the tests, fulfill the requirements and judge it according to the rules. I would hope nobody wants to be Given a Ribbon and I know nobody wants to feel as though they were "set up" or run a circus event on the weekend so somewhere here in the middle we need to come to an agreement on the judging issues before we implode the game entirely. 
It's really not hard to see the variance in enrollments and the fact people will drive 3 - 5 hours to run under specific judges. 
So the question is are the more popular judges running Hunt Tests and scoring them with respect to Amateurs and the less popular Judges running Pseudo Field Trials and scoring them with Professional Expectations? At least that is the conversation many Hunt Test Handlers are having at the Mater Level and their list of good vs bad Judges are clearly defined and you can see it in the enrollment numbers.
I believe there needs to be a conversation among the Master Judges and all of the MN Clubs to come to some understanding of what the real Intention of the Hunt Test Game is before Clubs have to start cancelling events or the majority of the participants decide it simply isn't worth it run anymore...
This is a great game and I would would hate to see politics and ego's destroy it.....


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Jerryd56 said:


> Agreed on all points especially having high expectations for our dogs... I have been involved with the HT game since the 80's and without a doubt there has been a real separation in the "expectations" form various Judges.*In my opinion the intent of the game has gotten cloudy from its origin, in the beginning the Pro's were Field Trialers and the guys with pickup trucks and dog crate in the back were Amateurs and had a Game called Hunt Tests and they were fun*... Also back then we had to request a premium be sent to us by mail, then mail it back with a check and wait to hear if you made it in the event.. The judges didn't matter because I didn't know who they were anyway.. I did know if my dog picked up the marks cleanly and handled crisply I would pass, if the dog didn't do the work or I made a mistake I would fail.. I do not recall ever feeling as though the judges were trying to drop dogs or setting up some circus event for a series with the intent of tricking a dog or handler. The tests were very straight forward and Judges (most all of the Judges had Field Trial experience) scored them with respect to the fact Amateurs were running the dogs. I also Judge the events and don't know where the conversation of how many should pass or fail comes from, it is fairly simple every dog will not pass or fail. So if you set up tests that cover the requirements and judge it fairly the right number happens.. Some days it may be 60+% other days you won't be close to that number.. I can tell you I have never got home from judging and thought I passed or failed to many dogs, I simply set up the tests, fulfill the requirements and judge it according to the rules. I would hope nobody wants to be Given a Ribbon and I know nobody wants to feel as though they were "set up" or run a circus event on the weekend so somewhere here in the middle we need to come to an agreement on the judging issues before we implode the game entirely.
> It's really not hard to see the variance in enrollments and the fact people will drive 3 - 5 hours to run under specific judges.
> So the question is are the more popular judges running Hunt Tests and scoring them with respect to Amateurs and the less popular Judges running Pseudo Field Trials and scoring them with Professional Expectations? At least that is the conversation many Hunt Test Handlers are having at the Mater Level and their list of good vs bad Judges are clearly defined and you can see it in the enrollment numbers.
> I believe there needs to be a conversation among the Master Judges and all of the MN Clubs to come to some understanding of what the real Intention of the Hunt Test Game is before Clubs have to start cancelling events or the majority of the participants decide it simply isn't worth it run anymore...
> This is a great game and I would would hate to see politics and ego's destroy it.....


It is nice to hear input from someone who has been involved in this 'game' (specifically akc hunt tests) long enough to be able to give perspective on the changes. I especially llke the sentence highlighted... I have run tests with both types of judges who ran/run ft's - the ones that understand the original intent for hunt tests (amateur trained dogs) and the ones who seemed to have a need to impress their ft friends/competitors who were also running the hunt test.... 

And, At least HRC has the sense to limit the number of dogs a pro/person can enter and also has the sense to keep the numbers well limited. I wish AKC would get on that train... but they won't because there is too much money in it. I have nothing against pros, might have been one myself had my life taken a slightly different turn in the mid 80's - but it is unfortunate that owners of pro trained dogs can't step up and handle their own dogs in tests (as in make it a rule - and yes, I realize that is unrealistic, at this point in time') - master national amateur aside)


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> It is nice to hear input from someone who has been involved in this 'game' (specifically akc hunt tests) long enough to be able to give perspective on the changes. I especially llke the sentence highlighted... I have run tests with both types of judges who ran/run ft's - the ones that understand the original intent for hunt tests (amateur trained dogs) and the ones who seemed to have a need to impress their ft friends/competitors who were also running the hunt test....
> 
> And, At least HRC has the sense to limit the number of dogs a pro/person can enter and also has the sense to keep the numbers well limited. I wish AKC would get on that train... but they won't because there is too much money in it. I have nothing against pros, might have been one myself had my life taken a slightly different turn in the mid 80's - but it is unfortunate that owners of pro trained dogs can't step up and handle their own dogs in tests (as in make it a rule - and yes, I realize that is unrealistic, at this point in time') - master national amateur aside)


I strongly suspect the person you quoted was and is far more involved than you ever imagined


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> I strongly suspect the person you quoted was and is far more involved than you ever imagined


I would say you are probably correct... anyone who has been involved that long (and has not gotten burned out) has to have a sincere investment into the sport


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## Archer53 (Jun 19, 2019)

Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs
Rainmaker's Bella Luna, MH/QAA
Rainmaker's Southern Gamble, MH/QA2
Port Bay's TNT Dynamite, MH/QA2


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## Bustinwater (Aug 9, 2018)

I would like to thank those that did enter and especially those that pitched in to make the MFTA hunt test a success. Despite the low entries the club did actually show a profit and will be having another test next year. Issue we do have is there are very limited weekends open in MN to have a hunt test. 

FYI, there was 42% pass rate, which I feel more should be closer to this than the 80% or higher. All of which I would definitely say the dogs took themselves out! Tests were great and judged fairly!!


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