# British vs. American bred Labs for AKC retriever hunt tests



## maliretriever (May 28, 2006)

Thinking about getting a 100% British Lab puppy in the future after my yellow Am bred Lab earns his last master pass. Shine is a very driven retriever from FT bloodlines and is somewhat hard to handle. He made the derby list but never got 2nd or first to get QAA. Did get several thirds, though. Anyway, would like to find a small female puppy (maturing about 45-50) to train and run-in HT. Any thoughts about British Labs that have made their mark in HT?
Thanks!

KM


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I have one who has passed 20 of 22 hunt tests and has both his NAHRA mhr and HRCH titles. 

Do your research and you should be able to find a very nice ht prospect


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

I had a male British Lab from Double TT British Kennels. He was MH, HRCH and QAA(1ST).


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

I would be very careful where you buy your pup from. I did the same route as you 2 years ago for the exact same reason and had to wash him out since since I couldn’t get him excited about the water despite my efforts which were exhaustive. Full sibling to my dog has the exact same problem and a pro friend of mine told me he has seen this a lot with British labs and he has been doing his work for 25 plus years. 

I blame myself for not doing the pedigree/genetics homework I should have. On the dams side there was only one titled dog in the 5 generations. 

Rick McConnel out of old oak kennels in Minnesota is an excellent British lab breeder and trainer who would be a great person to have a conversation with. He takes his breeding very seriously.

Just do your homework and you should be aok.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Good advise here!
I would say if they are actually from British field bred dogs you will be fine. Out my way I cringe when I hear someone say they have or want a British lab. People here consider show bred dogs British. They associate the short heavy bodied fat headed dogs with British labs and almost 100% of the time they have no British anywhere in their pedigree


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Sire 
HRCH TTF Craighorn Kiffin MH x 
Dam HR TTF Quivira Millbuies Katie JH


I train with people that have a female from this breeding.
She is a very mild mannered and intelligent. I think about 4 years old. Leads a very pampered life, even compared to my dog.
Has some HRC points and three master passes, no fails. I watched her at one master and she did every test to perfection.
She also jammed one Qual. 
She is far from being a high drive field trial dog but she isn't what I would call soft either.


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

As a breeder of UK dogs, in the past 20 years I have brought a handful or so to NAHRA Grand Master titles. I'm a small operation and train and run my own dogs so I usually only concentrate on a couple at a time. Sorry for the shameless plug - but i have one litter down currently GMHR Oak x SR Kim, and will have another on the ground this week FTW Diego x Jessie. Really nice working pedigrees all around with complete health clearances.


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## maliretriever (May 28, 2006)

I know Haynes Floyd and he is a person I was thinking of getting a puppy from. Can you pm your contact as would like to talk to you about the one you got from him. Thanks!

KM


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Why pay twice the price for the same product? 

If you have a temperament in mind that you want you can find it in American bred litters who are proven over many generations to be successful in the games you are interested in.


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## DH (Oct 3, 2006)

For what it is worth the 12 year old dog that I just lost was from Dave Combs who posted a bit earlier here. He was a special dog and I believe the litters he has now are a generation removed from the same sire. I can't imagine anyone not being happy with one of Dave's dogs.

As for price, I'm on my second British dog and neither cost more than a comparably titled American breeding.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Besides being different what's the difference?


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

HarryWilliams said:


> Besides being different what's the difference?


This is not a can of worms that should be opened. Trust me.;-)


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Do you mean British FT lines or US bred show dog that many refer to as British? If the parents don’t have a proven record of success in the game you want to play, then I would steer clear.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

If you want to play HT or FT with a dog from British FT lines you will likely be disappointed. I only really know FT's and as far as I know not a single Labrador from a British FT breeding (like in last 30 years or more) has accomplished anything of note in Field Trials. A few had derby points and few (one I can remember) made QAA. Probably no QA2. As far as all age stakes, forget about it, maybe you could find a dog or two who jammed an AA stake but good luck finding any who placed. 
Anyway if you're okay with a so so dog for HT's go for it. Be aware that most British breeders in the US do not compete or run HT or do anything to prove their brood bitches are worthy of breeding.


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

You should be able to find a british dog that can play the hunt test game no problem.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Breck said:


> If you want to play HT or FT with a dog from British FT lines you will likely be disappointed. I only really know FT's and as far as I know not a single Labrador from a British FT breeding (like in last 30 years or more) has accomplished anything of note in Field Trials. A few had derby points and few (one I can remember) made QAA. Probably no QA2. As far as all age stakes, forget about it, maybe you could find a dog or two who jammed an AA stake but good luck finding any who placed.
> *Anyway if you're okay with a so so dog for HT's go for it. Be aware that most British breeders in the US do not compete or run HT or do anything to prove their brood bitches are worthy of breeding.*


For FTs, depends on one's expectations, Breck. Mine with a British dog (by way of Nebraska) were having a great dog to work with on the Zen of retriever training (various training groups) and competing on occasion. Fulfilled my expectations completely albeit from a longshot perspective that admittedly wouldn't have satisfied lots of other "truer" competitors. Though I got one of those QAA thingies along the way with her - _way_ along the way, at almost 10 years old, but I can also that she went 5+ years without any running trials, and only ran a few after that, which was my decision. But also can say that at 16 months, owner-handler trained, she went seven of eight series in a Q and an Amateur and wasn't being carried by the judges for her manners, looks, or crooked smile...

HTs, a different story with a British dog, and could be a good story for somebody wanting to train their own retriever for competition and getting in with an "American Lab" hunt test training group. Actually, I think Dawson's (DH) testimonial to Mr. Combs could be downright enticing to somebody wanting to try a British Lab in those games. I'm also thinking that Kirk Keene at Imperial Retrievers out of Illinois is breeding British Labs with hunt test success at the highest levels in mind.

Funny thing is I've now got the antithesis of a British Lab (a Lean Mac yearling through and through) to play and work with, and my old British gal, now almost 12, is giving her all she wants on both fronts helping "raise her right" as a canine good citizen with at least some semblance of civility.

MG


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

So I have had experience with one Truly British Lab out of "British Field stock FC-FC etc."; She was imported directly from England and had KC paperwork. I have no idea how the owner actually got the dog; friend of a friend, brother, uncle, cousin; type of deal. She was pretty much the same and trained the same as an American lab. Only issue is she tended to be a bit softer and had little bottom. But then that could've been just this dog. That Said I have had exposure to several " what they call British dogs". Namely they came from kennel advertising "British lines" and I believe they might've been out of a British line at some point; but their paperwork doesn't actually show any KC registration numbers nor British field titles for generations. They are pretty much just the same as many American bred dogs. Different dogs from particular Kennels tended to have some quirks " less drive than I like, and a bit stubborn IMO" ; but I feel that is more the kennel line; and not "British Breeding". Not sure I would go out of my way to find a truly "British dog" when to me the Good British dogs are just the same as a Good American dogs. Now I will say when look at Labs in general different lines have different energy levels; and that is pretty much all about particular dog type; not nationality. It is completely possible to find a well manner less driven dog without it having to be British; might look into HRC or HT lines. If you start looking just for "British" you really limit your options; and "unless you are going to import directly which is a Major PITA; most likely the dog would just be "British" lines which could be several generations back.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Thank you Huntemup, for the only knowledgeable post in the thread. Unless you import directly from England, you have an American bred Labrador Retriever. There are surely different body styles here, as there are in other countries. 
Tell me, are YOU American? Or British?


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

lucas said:


> Thank you Huntemup, for the only knowledgeable post in the thread. Unless you import directly from England, you have an American bred Labrador Retriever. There are surely different body styles here, as there are in other countries.
> Tell me, are YOU American? Or British?


False. I have two I bought here in the states, sire and dam of both have KC registration and all generations behind them. There are kennels here in the states that imports studs and dams directly from the UK. I agree that if I was to breed mine, they would technically be "American bred". Those who know the pedigrees, know different.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

cmccallum said:


> False. I have two I bought here in the states, sire and dam of both have KC registration and all generations behind them. There are kennels here in the states that imports studs and dams directly from the UK. I agree that if I was to breed mine, they would technically be "American bred". Those who know the pedigrees, know different.


No, not necessarily false, just sorta somewhere between doctrinaire and semantics. Kind of funny that several of Ms. Lucas' confreres on the LRC BOD - past and present - and their "associates" ask from time to time how my "British Lab" is making out. (I put it in quotes to emphasize for her inference that yes, she's American-bred. ...then again, I had a MH Sussex spaniel bitch that was "British-bred" - came over in-utero - and I didn't cotton to calling her an _American_ Sussex spaniel, not a'tall.)

MG


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

If the OP is looking for a nice dog to play the HT game with , from UK bloodlines, they would do well to have a conversation with Dave Combs. I have judged his dogs and dogs bought from him and they were very nice working dogs.

I am wondering though, about the OP's desire for such a small specimen. A properly proportioned bitch of that size would be well outside the breed standard. -Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Cousin Bond, is that you?


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

You are technically correct. But we all know the OP is actually looking for a bench bred Lab and doesn't want to say so. There are (too) many styles of Labradors but they are all the same breed. We, so far, do not have English or American Labrador Retrievers, like the Cocker spaniel breeds.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't think there would be any 40-50 lb bench bred labs? Wouldn't that be quite a bit under breed standard?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

lucas said:


> You are technically correct. But we all know the OP is actually looking for a bench bred Lab and doesn't want to say so. There are (too) many styles of Labradors but they are all the same breed. We, so far, do not have English or American Labrador Retrievers, like the Cocker spaniel breeds.


I don’t know that. I think the OP just wants a more mild mannered dog than the one he has.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

lucas said:


> You are technically correct. But we all know the OP is actually looking for a bench bred Lab and doesn't want to say so. There are (too) many styles of Labradors but they are all the same breed. We, so far, do not have English or American Labrador Retrievers, like the Cocker spaniel breeds.



Lucas,
Your assumption is way off base. I spoke personally with the OP via phone on Sunday and she is absolutely not in search of an English bench Lab. The OP and her husband currently have an American FT bred Lab and need one more leg to qualify for an MH title. All Labs, there are major differences in bench style vs. field bred Labrador Retrievers, those differences are readily apparent in the general build of the animal. The OP has some options for some really fine UK bred field performance retrievers and they won't be anything like a bench bred Labrador.

Irishwhistler ☘🇮🇪🇺🇸


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

lucas said:


> You are technically correct. But we all know the OP is actually looking for a bench bred Lab and doesn't want to say so. There are (too) many styles of Labradors but they are all the same breed. We, so far, do not have English or American Labrador Retrievers, like the Cocker spaniel breeds.





Tobias said:


> I don't think there would be any 40-50 lb bench bred labs? Wouldn't that be quite a bit under breed standard?


If he were looking for bench Lab, it would have to be 40-50 *kgs* or *140-150* lbs in size.

British bitches aren't necessarily smaller than "our own" (quotes again for parochial reference) - mine went as high as 70 lbs. when she was running FTs and now, after the stupendously great care of a certain LRC board member in making her a two-time cancer survivor, she checks in at 62 pounds and would appear almost underfed (if she didn't get so much quality over quantity with free-range venison and chicken).

MG


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

I know of an accomplished retriever trainer who bred and sold the English bred labs and he gave up on it. It's not that all of the English bred labs are bad but the percentages for them to be able to handle the crazy things that we Americans expect from them is not as high as the American bred labs. I trained labs for 54 years and if I were to become a breeder, I would look for breeding stock that came from a line of titled ancestors, that had the abilities to know when to turn the horse power on and when not to. It is really nice to see a retriever sit quietly on the line taking pictures of the marks being thrown and then when it is sent, to kick grass up in your face as it leaves the line. Those kinds of dogs are what our breeders should be breeding for, not the crazy barking, ass scooting hypochondriacs that require either professional trainers or harsh punishment for them to become successful. I have trained them all, with success, but I will take the ones I described above over all the rest. An old saying goes like this, if you start out a head of the game you will probably end up being a head of the game. Choose your prospect well and make it easier on yourself as a trainer and easier on the dog too as it is a better candidate for what you want it to do.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Good to know. Most Americans, when mentioning a "British" Lab are NOT talking about importing a field Lab from England. Glad to hear this OP actually meant precisely what she wrote! It is usually a marketing term, used by American breeders who are trying to attract a particular segment of the market. THIS time, it is someone who actually knows what she's asking for! I stand corrected and wish her all the best with her search.
Carry on.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

I was replying to this comment:


> Your assumption is way off base. I spoke personally with the OP via phone on Sunday and she is absolutely not in search of an English bench Lab. The OP and her husband currently have an American FT bred Lab and need one more leg to qualify for an MH title. All Labs, there are major differences in bench style vs. field bred Labrador Retrievers, those differences are readily apparent in the general build of the animal. The OP has some options for some really fine UK bred field performance retrievers and they won't be anything like a bench bred Labrador.





lucas said:


> Good to know. Most Americans, when mentioning a "British" Lab are NOT talking about importing a field Lab from England. Glad to hear this OP actually meant precisely what she wrote! It is usually a marketing term, used by American breeders who are trying to attract a particular segment of the market. THIS time, it is someone who actually knows what she's asking for! I stand corrected and wish her all the best with her search.
> Carry on.


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

paul young said:


> If the OP is looking for a nice dog to play the HT game with , from UK bloodlines, they would do well to have a conversation with Dave Combs. I have judged his dogs and dogs bought from him and they were very nice working dogs.
> 
> I am wondering though, about the OP's desire for such a small specimen. A properly proportioned bitch of that size would be well outside the breed standard. -Paul


Thanks Paul - Means a lot coming from you!


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

Based on my personal experiences, UK-bred dogs CAN be extremely successful in the hunt test venue. This past October, a Yellow female from UK-lineage achieved the 3,000 point plateau in the HRC. She was trained and handled by her amateur owner, and I see many others running UK-bred dogs as well. Our personal dogs are all titled in the HRC venue, and I breed for dogs that have the skill-set to excel in hunt tests.

That being said, the OP should do their homework prior to choosing a breeding. This is something I would absolutely recommend to anyone purchasing a pup...no matter their end game. Some UK-dogs are exceptionally soft, and some do not handle cold water well. Others have an element of "skittishness" to them, particularly females from certain lines. In reality, no different than lines of American dogs. 

I've come to the realization that importing a dog is a decidedly risky gamble. Because of logistics, we never have the opportunity to see the sire, dam, siblings, or in some cases offspring. I am a firm believer that a pedigree can only tell me so much, and I will no longer bring a dog over for that reason. Instead, I believe that there are many nice UK-bred dogs here in the States, and it's a wise choice to look from within, so to speak. There is much more information available on those dogs that are here, as opposed to those still residing across the pond. 

If I were looking for a UK-bred dog to run hunt tests with, the first thing I would look for (besides health clearances) would be ancestry that were successful hunt test dogs. Determine the qualities that are important to you, and seek out a line that excels in those qualities. If you are looking at a repeat breeding, by all means track down several of the older pups and see how they've matured. Do your homework and you should have little issue finding what you're looking for.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Any success by any dog in competition no matter the field ,has very little relevance to lineage. Other than those who promote or sell it.
When a pup is born it knows nothing.
When it is 8 weeks old when you get it ,it knows just about the same ,other than what it's mother and siblings showed it. 
It certainly won't run 200 yard blinds when it is 3 years old just because it's father or mother did.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

polmaise said:


> *Any success by any dog in competition no matter the field ,has very little relevance to lineage*. Other than those who promote or sell it.
> When a pup is born it knows nothing.
> When it is 8 weeks old when you get it ,it knows just about the same ,other than what it's mother and siblings showed it.
> It certainly won't run 200 yard blinds when it is 3 years old just because it's father or mother did.




Oh man I couldn't disagree more with the bolded sentence above. How did that old saying go? 'Cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear". However I do agree with the rest of this statement which reminds me of another saying. "What came first, the chicken or the egg?"


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Steve, I agree with you on this one. Granted, no matter the dog, training is critical. However, you must have the raw material to start with. 
Anyone who has had hands on enough dogs understands that some are just more talented, intelligent and biddable than others. 
However, predicting the relationship between genotype and phenotype in a pup is the real challenge. Lots of really well-bred pups don’t have the natural abilities of the parents


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Steve, I agree with you on this one. Granted, no matter the dog, training is critical. However, you must have the raw material to start with. 
Anyone who has had hands on enough dogs understands that some are just more talented, intelligent and biddable than others. 
However, predicting the relationship between genotype and phenotype in a pup is the real challenge. Lots of really well-bred pups don’t have the natural abilities of the parents


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Kirk Keene said:


> Based on my personal experiences, UK-bred dogs CAN be extremely successful in the hunt test venue. This past October, a Yellow female from UK-lineage achieved the 3,000 point plateau in the HRC. She was trained and handled by her amateur owner, and I see many others running UK-bred dogs as well. Our personal dogs are all titled in the HRC venue, and I breed for dogs that have the skill-set to excel in hunt tests.
> 
> That being said, the OP should do their homework prior to choosing a breeding. This is something I would absolutely recommend to anyone purchasing a pup...no matter their end game. Some UK-dogs are exceptionally soft, and some do not handle cold water well. Others have an element of "skittishness" to them, particularly females from certain lines. In reality, no different than lines of American dogs.
> 
> ...


nicely said. 

I would add to this - Try to get a pup from a breeding where multiple gens have had health testing (at a minimum the parents) to include ALL the testing most US dogs have done. My exp with trying to find a US bred UK line field dog is that some breeders (with dogs that run HT successfully) do not do cerf testing on their breeding stock. Do not believe what a breeder's website says. Go to OFA and make sure those tests have been done and the dog has passed them. If they haven't or haven't been submitted to OFA don't be afraid to ask WHY.


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

"_*Any success by any dog in competition no matter the field ,has very little relevance to lineage. Other than those who promote or sell it.
When a pup is born it knows nothing.
When it is 8 weeks old when you get it ,it knows just about the same ,other than what it's mother and siblings showed it.
It certainly won't run 200 yard blinds when it is 3 years old just because it's father or mother did."*_

Come on, man...you can't really believe this???
If this is the case, then I guess we simply go to the nearest pet shelter for our next competitive dog.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

That would be silly, it wouldn't have the necessary health test records for future breeding or registration certificates for competition.


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

polmaise said:


> Any success by any dog in competition no matter the field ,has very little relevance to lineage. Other than those who promote or sell it.
> When a pup is born it knows nothing.
> When it is 8 weeks old when you get it ,it knows just about the same ,other than what it's mother and siblings showed it.
> It certainly won't run 200 yard blinds when it is 3 years old just because it's father or mother did.



I respectfully disagree. Genetics is incredibly important. Look at it in comparison to human athletes. If two Olympic athletes marry and have children there is a very strong likelihood that their children will have natural athletic ability as well They will still have to work hard to succeed of course but the foundation will most likely be there and be strong. 

Now take two people who just are not athletically inclined at all and were never good at sports. "Most likely" their children will be the same. Not a guarantee of course but all things being equal, this would most likely be true. 

Its the same thing in the retriever world. You want a dog who is high drive, biddable, fantastic marker, etc etc. Look for parents who have those traits. You will still have to do your part with the hard work and training but because you have a good foundation (genetics), your chances of success are better than if you bought a purebred retriever with nothing in his or her pedigree.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I respectfully suggest ,that if a new born baby born in Papua New Guinea whose parents may well have had a bone through their nose and the baby was then sent to HM the Queen of my country to be brought up in the royal house hold it would most certainly Not be the same as the parents,but that is not what I suggest with dogs ..Simply putting human psychology to genetics and breeding from the winners in competition or any field does much injustice to those that are bred from the same or similar ..who don't . ....Or are they losers ?.lol


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

polmaise said:


> I respectfully suggest ,that if a new born baby born in Papua New Guinea whose parents may well have had a bone through their nose and the baby was then sent to HM the Queen of my country to be brought up in the royal house hold it would most certainly Not be the same as the parents,but that is not what I suggest with dogs ..Simply putting human psychology to genetics and breeding from the winners in competition or any field does much injustice to those that are bred from the same or similar ..who don't . ....Or are they losers ?.lol


Do you really think a lab pup from a backyard breeding of two family pets has the same chance of becoming a competitive field trial dog as a pup from a 5 gen pedigree stacked top to bottom with FC/AFC titles and hundreds of AA points? Health and training being equal of course.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Firstly I'd like to caution the OP and others that the assumption that a UK Lab automatically turns up with a "mellow" switch is unfounded.

All of mine came from FT lines, and a fair number were lunatics that required careful training and handling to avoid the problems of over enthusiasm. That's one reason that I'm agnostic on the common practise in the US of exposing young puppies to live birds. 

Secondly I'd like to put in a plug for what are being sniffily described as "backyard breeders", mostly because I was one myself. We bred a couple of litters from an FT line ESS bitch of mine who was a great little worker and admired as such by folks locally. They would come up and say "If ever she has a few pups put me down for one." The sire was another local dog, son of a FTCh, also well regarded by those with eyes to see. All clearances in position, Anna and Oscar made some very nice working dogs, a couple of which went Trialling. 

The best Lab I ever had was out of a bitch line of five generations developed by a 'keepers wife in Devon by a Ropehall sire. Of his litter of seven, one lad was made up to FTCh, one bitch was a Disability Assistance dog, and the rest just sound performers in the field and also in my case on the foreshore and in the pigeon hide too. So another one up to the "backyard."

When we start out in this game we none of us know enough to decide on just what our needs and requirements are or how and where they can be obtained, but as experience grows you can more easily sort things out for yourself and trust your own eyes and judgement, and not rely on commercially popular labelling.

Eugene


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Firstly I'd like to caution the OP and others that the assumption that a UK Lab automatically turns up with a "mellow" switch is unfounded.
> 
> All of mine came from FT lines, and a fair number were lunatics that required careful training and handling to avoid the problems of over enthusiasm. That's one reason that I'm agnostic on the common practise in the US of exposing young puppies to live birds.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more _Eugene_, and I thought it was us Brits that were classed as 'Snobs'


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Couldn't agree more _Eugene_, and I thought it was us Brits that were classed as 'Snobs'


No, Robt., the Brits call y'all Scots "Nobs" or change the vowel and make the occasional reference to "Your Nibs."

On this "backyard breeder" bidness, what Eug is describing is "commonly" referred to (by us commoners, of course) as "hobbyist breeders." "Backyard breeders" would be them that put up roadside cardboard signs in mid-central Pennsylvania. that tell in childish scrawl - as a friend just related to me by phone - of "Fox Red Labs 4 Sell." Quite a difference that might get lost in the translation, even though _Eugene_ used to live in that very state.

I'm not condemning them, nor would I condemn the chap up in Minnesota who has imported from you personally before and who advertises that his "British" dogs have been successful in American field trials - surely he must be talking about the *Pan *American field trials run by Juan Trippe over the Pacific in Clipper planes, because nobody has any knowledge - or evidence - of this "gentleman's" Labs having ever run the first US or Canadian retriever FT, much less of their (the dogs) having "succeeded" at them. Proverbial load of tosh, per the usual "British" marketing, it would seem.

Now Kirk Keene, who has responded here, has a different idea for competitive success (in hunt tests, which are competitive in their own way, no matter what AKC says) and I for one am paying attention with an eye toward future possibilities should his kennel Imperial Retrievers start thinking about that competitive notion for field trial Lab pairings.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Kinda Proves the point . 
You can buy from the best lineage and not compete in games . No ribbons ..to promote to those that want ribbons,and there still is not one guarantee ever from any breeder in the world that has 'buy puppy,and it it will be as good as the sire or dam' . .. Nobs btw MG, as you know is a National organisation over here ,that also never produced much from an original good pedigree. lol ..


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Kinda Proves the point .
> You can buy from the best lineage and not compete in games . No ribbons ..to promote to those that want ribbons,and there still is not one guarantee ever from any breeder in the world that has 'buy puppy,and it it will be as good as the sire or dam' . .. Nobs btw MG, as you know is a National organisation over here ,that also never produced much from an original good pedigree. lol ..



Yeah, I was a member in good - well, mediocre - standing in the never-produced-much pedigree category with _*that*_ NOBs, but I was being cheeky using the other "Nobs" as a highfalutin salutation.

MG


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

_*Now Kirk Keene, who has responded here, has a different idea for competitive success (in hunt tests, which are competitive in their own way, no matter what AKC says) and I for one am paying attention with an eye toward future possibilities should his kennel Imperial Retrievers start thinking about that competitive notion for field trial Lab pairings.*_

Interesting that you bring this up, as I ran a client dog that was bred by us in a Qualifying stake this past September. She got lost on a long flyer in the first series and that was the extent of her FT career to date. I would like to run more with her, but her owner hates to have her away from home, and it's unlikely she'll spend the time with me needed to run any more of them. 

This brings me to my next point, which is why I feel Polmaise is so far off the mark regarding breeding for specific traits. To be blunt, the vast majority of UK-bred dogs do not possess the marking skills needed to be _competitive_ FT dogs. UK field-bred Labradors were bred to be game finders, more or less, and running straight, tight lines is not their wheel-house. Matter of fact, teaching a UK-bred dog to run long, straight lines is my biggest challenge when teaching casting and lining. I will occasionally produce a dog with decent all-age marking skills, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Because I train with a FT group several times a week, I actually purchased an American-bred Labrador female to allow me to run more all-age set-ups and compete in trials! The lining and marking ability of this female is head and shoulders above what I generally see in UK dogs, and I do not see the need to fit a square peg in a round hole. Because hunt test marks are shorter, the UK-dogs have enough ability to succeed, but not at FT distances. That being said, I have a little Black female that will turn two years of age in May, and she's shown a penchant for running straight. Thinking about entering her in a Derby or two this spring, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Yeah, I was a member in good - well, mediocre - standing in the never-produced-much pedigree category with _*that*_ NOBs, but I was being cheeky using the other "Nobs" as a highfalutin salutation.
> 
> MG


It's Black Friday soon ! Y'all always looking for a bargain .


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Kirk Keene said:


> _*Now Kirk Keene, who has responded here, has a different idea for competitive success (in hunt tests, which are competitive in their own way, no matter what AKC says) and I for one am paying attention with an eye toward future possibilities should his kennel Imperial Retrievers start thinking about that competitive notion for field trial Lab pairings.*_
> 
> Interesting that you bring this up, as I ran a client dog that was bred by us in a Qualifying stake this past September. She got lost on a long flyer in the first series and that was the extent of her FT career to date. I would like to run more with her, but her owner hates to have her away from home, and it's unlikely she'll spend the time with me needed to run any more of them.
> 
> This brings me to my next point, which is why I feel Polmaise is so far off the mark regarding breeding for specific traits. To be blunt, the vast majority of UK-bred dogs do not possess the marking skills needed to be _competitive_ FT dogs. UK field-bred Labradors were bred to be game finders, more or less, and running straight, tight lines is not their wheel-house. Matter of fact, teaching a UK-bred dog to run long, straight lines is my biggest challenge when teaching casting and lining. I will occasionally produce a dog with decent all-age marking skills, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Because I train with a FT group several times a week, I actually purchased an American-bred Labrador female to allow me to run more all-age set-ups and compete in trials! The lining and marking ability of this female is head and shoulders above what I generally see in UK dogs, and I do not see the need to fit a square peg in a round hole. Because hunt test marks are shorter, the UK-dogs have enough ability to succeed, but not at FT distances. That being said, I have a little Black female that will turn two years of age in May, and she's shown a penchant for running straight. Thinking about entering her in a Derby or two this spring, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.


I wish you every success with your black female Kirk.
'Marking ability' has never been nor will ever be a trait that is bred in a dog (imo) . It can be enhanced and trained, or cultured and perfected ..otherwise we could all just buy a puppy from registered champion dogs and not bother with all the expense of the Training programs on offer ? . 
I do agree that UK -bred trialling dogs are encouraged to be game finders ,and the game we play applauds this .
No puppy ever!! sold by any breeder ,including those that have Silver cups has ever guaranteed that the pup will do the things that it mother or father can do,even with a grounding of having something to start with in breeding ..! (that's fact) 
atb 
Robert


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

It takes genetics(nature) and training(nurture) to develop a top level dog. Even with the best pedigree and the best environment to foster future success, only a small % will make competitive all-age dogs. That's just how difficult the game is.


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## 2handslideby (Jan 8, 2019)

I know I am going to regret getting into this discussion, lol, but here goes. I ran field trials for many years and had some small to moderate success. (open wins and national participation.) I also trained hunting dogs in order to keep the lights on. Training dogs was not a lucrative career for me and I had a chance to make a better living, so I took it. I changed careers and got completely out of dogs for nearly 20 years. 

I am strictly a hunter now with no aspirations of training a dog for competitions. Last year after a lot of reading and research, my wife and I bought a well bred British FC sired pup with a good field trial champion British bitch line. I figured if he didn't work out, we would have a nice looking pet at worst. I made the decision to go British after looking at videos of their field trials. We started him with a clicker and treats and used no force or collar. Our first dog to train this way. Our results are a very intense retriever that is also very calm and steady. Great nose, no whining, creeping, no mouth issues, etc. that I often saw with top level FT dogs.

I went and observed a field trial this year and a hunt test and I haven't seen much change in either as far as the dogs and trainers go. Most are still too keyed up on the line if they were in a hunting blind or by a dove stool. If I was strictly interested in field trials, my dog wouldn't work, mainly because I feel he would be too soft. But for a person that hunts a lot, like I do, The British lab I have is superior by far to the vast majority of hunt test and ft dogs I have seen. He handles well and is a great water dog, especially on diving cripples. The main thing I like is his temperament. Quite and steady, but runs as fast and hits the water as hard as any young derby dog. 

I'm not saying an all age dog isn't a fine hunting dog. Most are. But for the very small relative amount of work we put in this British pup compared to the amount of work it takes for a trial dog, there is no comparison. For someone relatively new to dog training, this type of dog using the positive reinforcement methods would be a lot easier to achieve good results. As a side note, to date we haven't lost a duck or a dove yet. Pheasants beware, you're next.


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE 
I think i can add to this by saying that many people wanting to get a dog, go and spend as much as they can afford for the best dog available. Sometimes that ends up being a fire breather and they aren't capable of dealing with it. End up with an unhappy owner and and unhappy dog bc they dont mesh. Cant tell you how many times I've heard "my is out of FC AFC yada yada yada" and then watch that dog come to the line on its back legs while the owner is doing everything they can to hold on to the leash. Yes UK trials are different - its a vastly different game, but the qualities they breed for are more like what MOST people here in the US should want in a hunting or hunt test dog. Now don't get me wrong I've seen plenty of dogs on all ends of the spectrum from both sides of the pond..... just saying 90% of the time, when you plant potatoes, you get potatoes. 




2handslideby said:


> I know I am going to regret getting into this discussion, lol, but here goes. I ran field trials for many years and had some small to moderate success. (open wins and national participation.) I also trained hunting dogs in order to keep the lights on. Training dogs was not a lucrative career for me and I had a chance to make a better living, so I took it. I changed careers and got completely out of dogs for nearly 20 years.
> 
> I am strictly a hunter now with no aspirations of training a dog for competitions. Last year after a lot of reading and research, my wife and I bought a well bred British FC sired pup with a good field trial champion British bitch line. I figured if he didn't work out, we would have a nice looking pet at worst. I made the decision to go British after looking at videos of their field trials. We started him with a clicker and treats and used no force or collar. Our first dog to train this way. Our results are a very intense retriever that is also very calm and steady. Great nose, no whining, creeping, no mouth issues, etc. that I often saw with top level FT dogs.
> 
> ...


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Dave Combs said:


> APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
> ...Now don't get me wrong I've seen plenty of dogs on all ends of the spectrum from both sides of the pond.....* just saying 90% of the time, when you plant potatoes, you get potatoes*.


This is no place for encomiums to _*Irish*_ Labs! Nah, Dave, another here-here for 2handslideby's post, he hit all the right notes and didn't defame anybody or breed.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Dave Combs said:


> Now don't get me wrong I*'ve seen plenty of dogs on all ends of the spectrum from both sides of the pond*..... just saying 90% of the time, when you plant potatoes, you get potatoes.


Can only agree ..This side of the pond is the same (with regards to fire breathers with titles and ribbons on pedigree) . Can't clarify that I have seen any US this side of our pond sorry,so not very scientific due to lack of data , but can concur without the requirement of a scientific study by a phd student or someone who wants to promote their studies and gain funds. lol


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

No one has mentioned that there are multiple fire-breathers, and somewhat obnoxious field trial dogs that behave perfectly well while hunting. The difference is that hunting is not the "ready-set-go" environment that we inadvertently condition for with all-age training and events in North American type field trials. Even dogs that "freeze or stick" at trials usually do not do so while hunting! A creeper at a field trial may be rock-steady while hunting. 
It is unfair to judge great all-age dogs seen at trials for their suitability while hunting. My 9 field trial champion dogs (and 3 National wins), some of which were rock and rollers, have all been outstanding while hunting in the blind, at finding cripples and being "good citizens" ( although one was a bit antsy when ducks were coming in heavy).
In contrast, I simply have not seen "off-shore" bred dogs excel at North American field trials, mostly because of water work and thus excel at both hunting and field trials (but perhaps hunt tests?). This does not discount that they can be easier to train and entirely suitable for the average hunter. But what are you looking for? In contrast to our Rule Book which strives for testing a dog in an "ordinary day's hunting" I am one who desires a dog that excels at an "extra-ordinary days" hunting. The blunt reality is that many of the "greatest hunting dogs" can't get the birds other than those that I can walk or paddle out to get myself. 
So it's really a case of what are you pleased with, what are your requirements and standards and how much effort do you want to put into it? ​


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

So it's really a case of what are you pleased with, what are your requirements and standards and how much effort do you want to put into it? [/LEFT][/QUOTE]

I think that settles almost any argument - it's all about what you want!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

given that probably 100's of labs (US FT) are washed from FT competition every year - it makes sense that it would be near impossible to find a UK bred lab that could do or is doing well in US FT AA stakes ... give someone 200 UK bred FT puppies, from breedings that could produce puppies purposefully chosen for US work... and I wonder if maybe one or two might actually be able to be competitive in AA stakes. From there, they have to be put with the right trainer, of course....probably equally as important as the potential in the breeding.. of course we know that ain't gonna happen... Truth is, if you want a US FT dog - you should buy a dog from US FT lines. If you want to take a journey and you don't care how it ends up, and if you think the UK lines are for you... you should do it.

And, I agree it is the water work that would be the limiting factor. But then again, isn't that the limiting factor for most US bred dogs? 


I think I remember hearing that Hillmann brought over some UK labs and washed them out? Is there truth to that? And was that before or after his change in training philosophy?

Regarding the training - I have seen lots of US bred FT dogs at hunt tests that were 'bonkers' - some that washed out because they were totally uncontrolled. Read that again.... Totally uncontrolled.... not uncontrollable. It was the training, not the dog. IMO

There is no reason the OP can't find a really nice UK line breeding in the states that has pups who can do the hunt test game. No doubt at all about that. There are LOTS of UK lines running hunt tests - successfully.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Dennis, Thank you, you took the words out of my mouth. I do get tired of the stereotypes of field trial dogs as crazy and almost out of control. It's all about standards and maintaining them.
Not been around very many "British" dogs, so cannot have much of an opinion. I have seen a few backyard bred dogs become very good hunters, and I have seen some "great hunting dogs" that needed my field trial trained dog to get a bird they did not have the ability/training to do. As you said "extra-orinary hunting days".

I agree with Dave, its all about what YOU want. None of our dogs are any better than anyone else's dog for doing what the owner needs. Let's all try not to stereotype any "class" of dogs.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

NateB said:


> Dennis, Thank you, you took the words out of my mouth. I do get tired of the stereotypes of field trial dogs as crazy and almost out of control. It's all about standards and maintaining them.
> Not been around very many "British" dogs, so cannot have much of an opinion. I have seen a few backyard bred dogs become very good hunters, and I have seen some "great hunting dogs" that needed my field trial trained dog to get a bird they did not have the ability/training to do. As you said "extra-orinary hunting days".
> 
> *I agree with Dave, its all about what YOU want.* None of our dogs are any better than anyone else's dog for doing what the owner needs. Let's all try not to stereotype any "class" of dogs.


And what *YOU* train for, Nate. The crux of Dennis' shall we say lapidary (crystal-clear) comment was this



RetrieversONLINE said:


> *...Hunting is not the "ready-set-go" environment that we inadvertently condition for with all-age training and events in North American type field trials.*




It's that inadvertent conditioning that stokes the horsepower our "performance Labs" are born with - wouldn't hazard a guess if they could be "unconditioned" from puppies to compete successfully in something as rigid and, well, passive (obedience uber alles!) as a British or Euro FT. (Speaking Labs here, Dennis, but also seem to recall the "squeaking" infraction incurred by Connie Cleveland's dog during y'all's international competition all those years ago with Messrs. Lardy and the late Martin Deeley, but cannae remember if she was faulted running a Lab or Golden.)

MG


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

crackerd said:


> And what *YOU* train for, Nate. The crux of Dennis' shall we say lapidary (crystal-clear) comment was this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Connie was running a Golden and with multiple dogs on the line, her dog made a noise-it was almost like the squeak when a dog yawns. In any case the dog was scored a zero on that test!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Connie must have felt disappointed. Such is competition when a line of all superior and well trained dogs have very little between them in ability that there are tiny little differences that separate the winners from the placements. 
Rules and required standard before entering any competition would have been known or trained for of course ,and yes when part of a team , when one gets a 'duck egg' it is almost impossible to make up the difference to get in the frame against those who are 20 points ahead ..such is competition . and rules made by people. I bet they were all good dogs .


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

You want to know how I know we're all getting older? 

Because this is the first civil discussion on this topic I have ever read on this board on 15 years!! HAHAHAHA


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

polmaise said:


> Rules and required standard before entering any competition would have been known or trained for of course ,and yes when part of a team , when one gets a 'duck egg' it is almost impossible to make up the difference to get in the frame against those who are 20 points ahead ..such is competition . and rules made by people. I bet they were all good dogs .


I agree and I often wonder how much the "rules and required standard" have influenced the breeding pools of retrievers in North America, UK, NZ, and Australia. With reference to the afore-mentioned competition, both the US and Canadian teams had had some "coaching" by Martin Deeley as mentioned by Crackerd. However, in the very first test we were surprised to be scored lower than some other teams we had watched. Our dogs went to the area of the fall and dug out the birds we thought in a respectable manner. Other teams handled very quickly and often without the dog showing any indication of a mark. On blinds our dogs lined very well and handled crisply but the blinds were not marked and every one was in a different "area". European teams launched their dogs and let them hunt extensively in the area of the blinds. They got good scores (altho we did also when we lined them). In NZ I was surprised how dogs were scored down for the tiniest deviation on marks both going and coming. But on their blinds, they were all over and would be failures here. 
So we have an entirely different and opposite philosophy on marking and blind work based on the rules and standards in different countries. We cherish the dog who can mark and find birds independently and expect dogs on blinds to line accurately and handle sharply right to the bird. Over generations, breeding will undoubtedly be affected and it will not just be a case of training. As I have already mentioned, there is little comparison in the requirements for water work!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Dave Combs said:


> You want to know how I know we're all getting older?
> 
> Because this is the first civil discussion on this topic I have ever read on this board on 15 years!! HAHAHAHA


truly! and thankfully!


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Dave Combs said:


> You want to know how I know we're all getting older?
> 
> Because this is the first civil discussion on this topic I have ever read on this board on 15 years!! HAHAHAHA


Give it time.....


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Dennis wrote:
*"I agree and I often wonder how much the "rules and required standard" have influenced the breeding pools of retrievers in North America, UK, NZ, and Australia."*
.
Judges pass dogs that they see in competition ,they award the winners in each level according to the rules and or standard expected for competition entry. Dennis is far more travelled across the globe than I. I have only seen retrievers in the US,UK ,Germany and Sweden,but the veil of influence is the same I reckon in any country.
I remember Martin Deeley doing a great interview as a commentator on film way back in the 80's (could have been the 90's ,my memory at aged 60 is not good these days) with 'Ian Openshaw' (sorry retriever folk ,he was then a handler of multiple Field trial Champion English Springer Spaniels,and still to this day produces Field trial champion after Field trial champion..Cockers as well btw!!) ..I digress...
Martin asked a very important question in that interview (imo) . " How do you get the dog to Really hunt,you know ,like it wants to do nothing else ?"..
Ian of course ,with that superior Yorkshire smart ass face replied "well ,if the dog doesn't know the value of a £20 note , it's not going to dig in and get it"...
i am sure many took that philosophy as a measure for the dog to get in or go for a retrieve or find of a bird . 
I'm not too sure ;-)
A *'different area' *is always a contention in any competition with competitors who want all things equal ...*the same as the last guy ?* ..As rules and regulations are set for clinical perfection of the pre-arranged task ,then you will undoubtedly get what you award and praise and breed from .
Water is an obstacle for any dog , no matter the breed ! ..To overcome that obstacle in a dogs head to obtain the requirements for any rules ,requires a tool to change that concept in the dogs head. No more No less...So if you have a dog that finds the bird after you have shot it ,then it is in the bag ..Just how you do it ,,,is interpretation and awarded conditionally in competition .


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

_"You want to know how I know we're all getting older?

Because this is the first civil discussion on this topic I have ever read on this board on 15 years!! HAHAHAHA"_

Dave, I was thinking the same thing!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Kirk Keene said:


> _"You want to know how I know we're all getting older?
> 
> Because this is the first civil discussion on this topic I have ever read on this board on 15 years!! HAHAHAHA"_
> 
> Dave, I was thinking the same thing!


Yah for both y'all on the civility thing, and I know it's about British v. American-bred Labs, but with Boris the Etonian-bred cream-coloured Golden Retriever (Anglo-Anatolian shepherd?) having been returned to power with such a mandate, it could always take a turn for the worse! Polmaise will have to be equally civil in his response to that possibility...or maybe not.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Polmaise will have to be equally civil in his response to that possibility...or maybe not.
> 
> MG


Merry Christmas


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

polmaise said:


> crackerd said:
> 
> 
> > Polmaise will have to be equally civil in his response to that possibility...or maybe not.
> ...


Some would consider that response uncivilized. I do not, Merry Christmas to all.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

crackerd said:


> Yah for both y'all on the civility thing, and I know it's about British v. American-bred Labs, but with Boris the Etonian-bred cream-coloured Golden Retriever (Anglo-Anatolian shepherd?) having been returned to power with such a mandate, it could always take a turn for the worse! Polmaise will have to be equally civil in his response to that possibility...or maybe not.
> 
> MG


Crackerd! Surely you have seen the map of who voted for who from where. Seems there were some Scottish anomalies! Surprise!!
PS: Then again, perhaps "Scottish Bred" retrievers are not British!


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