# AKC Hunting Test Judges' Requirements--Seminar



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Is anyone else having issues with finding judges who have met all requirements for being approved to judge AKC Hunting Tests, and when the judge's name is submitted to the AKC for approval the judge is in need of the second seminar. The seminars are held throughout the country, but it can be hard to find one in time to get the person "approved" for 2013 assignments. It could mean waiting for almost a year for a seminar to be held within reasonable driving distance of said judge. For example, I asked someone from MT to judge and the only AKC seminars listed for the remainder of 2013 (when I checked) are in CA and TX.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Is anyone else having issues with finding judges who have met all requirements for being approved to judge AKC Hunting Tests, and when the judge's name is submitted to the AKC for approval the judge is in need of the second seminar. The seminars are held throughout the country, but it can be hard to find one in time to get the person "approved" for 2013 assignments. It could mean waiting for almost a year for a seminar to be held within reasonable driving distance of said judge. For example, I asked someone from MT to judge and the only AKC seminars listed for the remainder of 2013 (when I checked) are in CA and TX.


Yup, had that problem this past year...not to mention the requirements to be a judge is confusing as all get out!


----------



## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Ann
AKC seminar at BRC ASAP.


----------



## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

We didn't have this problem when judges had to take a seminar every 3 years. We saw it creating an issue when they initiated the judges test after 2 seminars. If those who are the active ones in clubs don't need one, most likely there won't be one scheduled. PLUS the pool of judges keeps getting smaller since we aren't making new judges but having the seminars often enough. 

Sure wish AKC would remove the judges renewal test in favor of more seminars. I think it is ruining our sport.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

junbe said:


> Ann
> AKC seminar at BRC ASAP.


If there is one, please let me know. I find the new judging requirements overly odious as it is, but now finding a seminar in reasonable distance has become problematic


----------



## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

And it's not getting any easier with the new requirements to judge twice at each lower level before moving up plus apprentice. Our club tries to recruite "new blood" whom we think will make good judges. But it's asking a lot. It also means we have to 2 more judges as the new judges can only do a single assignment. I'm all for improving the quality and consistency of HT judges but I'm not convinced the new rules are the better way to go.


----------



## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

Good Dogs said:


> And it's not getting any easier with the new requirements to judge twice at each lower level before moving up plus apprentice.



This rule is killing new judges in our area. With the rule of Apprentice Jr, judge twice then Move up to Sr, then up to Master. In our area with the amount of tests and what not it would take someone 3 + years to be able to judge Master. That is of course they do not want to handle a dog at some point along the way and Judge every test. The end result is that the few Master Judges we do have in our area are way over worked. On paper the rule makes sense, but for areas where there are not a lot of events and Judges it is hurting us more then helping us.

Our board has been discussing this lately in depth, sometype of change needs to happen. I don't think that a guy that has passed on test should be able to judge, but people that have titled dogs at that level should be able to judge at that level.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

HiRollerlabs said:


> Is anyone else having issues with finding judges who have met all requirements for being approved to judge AKC Hunting Tests, and when the judge's name is submitted to the AKC for approval the judge is in need of the second seminar. The seminars are held throughout the country, but it can be hard to find one in time to get the person "approved" for 2013 assignments. It could mean waiting for almost a year for a seminar to be held within reasonable driving distance of said judge. For example, I asked someone from MT to judge and the only AKC seminars listed for the remainder of 2013 (when I checked) are in CA and TX.


Ann, The only seminar this year was at CMRC. Next year both CV and Duluth/MIRRC will be holding them.

The rotation among the clubs has worked pretty well, but our judges need to be on top of their status too. We had to inform 2 they needed their 2nd seminar and 1 his test. 

If BH want to co-host with CV next year, I think that would work well. See ya Friday.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

There are a number of people like me up here, folks who have quite a bit of experience judging field trials, decades in most cases, most of us are and were hunters before we ran field trials, many including myself brought dogs up through the AKC and other hunt test ranks to title dogs at all levels, many of us have attended more than one AKC hunt test seminar, yet we are unable to help out local club out when asked to judge even a Junior Hunter stake because we haven't apprenticed. I know the Missoula Club cancelled their Spring hunt test due partly to there not being any local hunt test judges available, yet there are many qualified but for the stupid apprentice requirement. Field Trial judges have way less stringent requirements.

John


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

junbe said:


> Ann
> AKC seminar at BRC ASAP.


I believe Blackhawk is on the list to host the organized Greater MN Hunting Test Association seminar in February 2013. Would be nice, if there is interest, for a club in our area (WI, MN) to offer one yet this summer to pick up the people who would like to judge this year but are in need of a seminar. I will see if I can copy the AKC Hunting Test judging requirements here so everyone can read them. Also, I have been told that there is a Retriever Advisory Council (RAC) for Hunting Tests. I will post up who those folks are, if I still have that information. I read the post about the lack of judges in some of the more remote areas of the country. I had not thought about the impact of the requirements for those areas--even more difficult to host tests, apprentice, get approved to judge, and find judges there than we are experiencing in WI and MN.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

HiRollerlabs said:


> For example, I asked someone from MT to judge and the only AKC seminars listed for the remainder of 2013 (when I checked) are in CA and TX.


I'm heading up to the one in Sac. CA I think it's about 9.5 hrs for me, but I'm making a trip of it, visiting, training etc. I hope it will be enjoyable I am definitely not one who is known to be great at sitting still. Not sure how I got conned into going, all of the sudden my name was on a list. I guess at least I'll have a seminar, if the club can tie me to a chair, maybe they'll get me to apprentice one day .


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

*Section 6. Judges’ Eligibility. *Anyone
at least 21 years of age and in good standing with the American
Kennel Club may be approved to judge a Hunting Test subject to the
eligibility requirements in force at the time. It is the
responsibility of the clubs to determine the “qualifications” of
each prospective judge by researching experience accumulated through
training, actual hunting over dogs, handling dogs in field events and
prior judging activities. Clubs may at their discretion develop a
questionnaire in order to request background information on
prospective judges. *Prior to Becoming an Approved Judge. *For
new judges after January 1, 2012: (1) Seminar: Attend an AKC
Retriever Hunting Test seminar. This first seminar allows an
individual to judge for three years assuming the apprenticeship
requirement is met. (2) Apprenticeship: Successfully apprenticed at
least once at the level being judged. (Club’s responsibility to
monitor.) *Prior to Becoming Qualified to Judge the Senior/ Master Test. *After January 1, 2012, an individual judging the Senior or Master test for
the first time must have judged at least twice at the testing level
immediately below the one they are being asked to judge. (Club’s
responsibility to monitor.) *MaintainingOne’s Ability to Judge: *(1)
Second Seminar: If an individual has judged within three years of
attending the first seminar, that individual is required to attend a
second seminar to maintain the ability to continue to judge. If an
individual has not judged within three years of attending the first
seminar, another “first” seminar is required prior to being
allowed to judge. However, if you have earned six (6) points at the
Master level, you do not need to take the second seminar. Anyone that
has attended two or more seminars (one prior to judging and one after
having judged) is exempt from any further seminar attendance. (2)
Written Test: After the second seminar (one prior to judging and one
after having judged), an individual must complete a written
self-administered AKC test every four years _and
pass the test with a score of 90% or better_.
(3) Must remain an Active Judge: An individual must judge at any
level at least once every four (4) years to maintain eligibility.
Individuals who have not judged within the four-year period of the
mandatory written examination will be required to attend the Seminar.
(4) Must Remain an Active Handler: An individual must have handled a
qualifying dog at the level he is being asked to judge or higher
within seven (7) years of the date of the event. (Club’s
responsibility to monitor.) Individuals who have not judged within
the four-year period of the mandatory written examination will be
required to attend the Seminar. (1) The combined number of points
required for the two Judges in any division or level shall be six (6)
at that level or higher. Judges accumulate points for each level
judged at the completion of an assignment. (2) Handling Experience:
_At the Master test level and each division thereof, one Judge shall have
qualified a dog or dogs (5) times at the Master level. At the Senior
and Junior test levels and each division thereof, one Judge shall
have qualified a dog or dogs four (4) times either at the level being
judged or at a higher test level. Monitoring the qualifications of
judges is the responsibility of the event-giving club._


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Copied from the AKC website: 
*The AKC Retriever Hunting Test Advisory Committee *
*
2013 

*It is the responsibility of the RHT Advisory Committee to provide input to the AKC Performance Events Department with regard to the Retriever Hunting Test Regulations. This may involve clarification of existing Regulations or new Regulations that are felt to enhance the sport. Topics for Advisory Committee discussion may originate from RHT participants or from the Committee members themselves. The Performance Events Department may also direct ideas to the Committee for consideration. 

The Performance Events Department values the input of the Advisory Committee but is under no obligation to agree or act upon their suggestions. The Department may also, on occasion, act without Committee input. 

*Members of the Retriever Hunting Test Advisory Committee are: 

Term Expires at end of: 

Eastern Time Zone Representative 

*Robert Rascoe [email protected] 2016 

242 Fairfax Drive 336-765-9420 (H) 

Winston-Salem, NC 27104 

*Rocky Mountain Time Zone Representative 

*Jeff Schoonover [email protected] 2013 

1432 Red Fox Circle 970-686-0714 (H) 

Windsor, CO 80550 970-227-1284 (C) 

*Central Time Zone Representative 

*Richard Pyka [email protected] 2014 

W 235 N 262-229-3031 (H) 

9544 Mt. Vernon Dr. 

Colgate, WI 53017 

*Pacific Time Zone Representative 

*Tom Quarles [email protected] 2015 

12725 Jordan Road 360-691-2650 (off) 

Arlington, WA 98223-9409 425-377-3793 (C) 

*RHTAC Chairman 

*Bill Teague [email protected] 

734 CR 630 936-559-9007 (H) 

Nacogdoches, TX 75964 713-252-3918 (C)


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Yup!!! But The Performance Events Department values the input of the Advisory Committee but is under no obligation to agree or act upon their suggestions. The Department may also, on occasion, act without Committee input. 

While you are at it get them to eliminate the stoopit stick and the MANDATORY double blind.

Time for change regards

Bubba

PS- Hay Chris the compatibility mode thing works- not too sure why but it is good to have an Enter key again. Sure glad it didn't mess up the Delete key.


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

What is the out-of-pocket cost for someone who is just starting out, to become an AKC Hunting Test Judge who is approved to judge at the Master level. I know that in the clubs in which I participate, the apprentice judge covers his/her own costs (lodging, and fuel...our clubs typically pay for meals for apprentice). This would include the cost of attending two seminars (i.e., fuel, lodging, meals, seminar expense, etc.). Considering this is a volunteer position, where people give up their weekends with their families, and/or give up running their own dogs, and they get maybe a $50 gift certificate in appreciation for their sacrifice, how much is a person paying out-of-pocket to give back?


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I know that it cost me dearly to get my judge's number and license. I went to St. Louis for my first seminar at my expense. I apprenticed at Middle Tennessee in Junior and covered my expenses. I apprenticed at Northeast Tennessee for my Senior qualification at my expense. I attended my second seminar at the Kress's place in Alabama in a driving rain at my expense. *All this said I absolutely do NOT regret one dime or one mile I had to drive to get this done. *I absolutely love this "dog Game " of ours and would do it again in a "Georgia Second". I have judged in Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, Ohio Alabama and Georgia and have met some of the nicest people. I only judge at the Junior and Senior level at my own choice as it lets me connect with the new ones coming into the game. I believe that if someone leaves a HT with a good feeling regardless of how FIDO has done is a thing we need more of.... Just my .02 cents worth. http://www.akc.org/judges_directory...l=1&fixed_tab=1&judge_id=91282&bvg_string=992

I have a pretty open calender for this Fall and if it's within about a 10 hour drive, give me call and I can help out..


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> I know that it cost me dearly to get my judge's number and license. I went to St. Louis for my first seminar at my expense. I apprenticed at Middle Tennessee in Junior and covered my expenses. I apprenticed at Northeast Tennessee for my Senior qualification at my expense. I attended my second seminar at the Kress's place in Alabama in a driving rain at my expense. *All this said I absolutely do NOT regret one dime or one mile I had to drive to get this done. *I absolutely love this "dog Game " of ours and would do it again in a "Georgia Second". I have judged in Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, Ohio Alabama and Georgia and have met some of the nicest people.* I only judge at the Junior and Senior level at my own choice as it lets me connect with the new ones coming into the game. I believe that if someone leaves a HT with a good feeling regardless of how FIDO has done is a thing we need more of....* Just my .02 cents worth. http://www.akc.org/judges_directory...l=1&fixed_tab=1&judge_id=91282&bvg_string=992
> 
> I have a pretty open calender for this Fall and if it's within about a 10 hour drive, give me call and I can help out..


And you did a heck of a job doing that at my first hunt test ,thanks


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Eric Fryer said:


> This rule is killing new judges in our area. With the rule of Apprentice Jr, judge twice then Move up to Sr, then up to Master. In our area with the amount of tests and what not it would take someone 3 + years to be able to judge Master. That is of course they do not want to handle a dog at some point along the way and Judge every test. The end result is that the few Master Judges we do have in our area are way over worked. On paper the rule makes sense, but for areas where there are not a lot of events and Judges it is hurting us more then helping us.
> 
> Our board has been discussing this lately in depth, sometype of change needs to happen. I don't think that a guy that has passed on test should be able to judge, but people that have titled dogs at that level should be able to judge at that level.


Interesting point. We have tons of HT here in MN/WI and I've been grumbling about the time investment now required, to apprentice once at each JH/SH, judge twice, before moving up a level. This new requirement is a hassle for anyone now, but, if in an area with few HT, really puts a damper on getting new judges. It's my own fault for not paying attention to the grandfather dealy and getting the MH apprentice done after I did the first seminar, when I realized what the new requirements were, it was 2 months too late and now I have to start over. Apprentice at JH then judge there twice, repeat for SH, before can judge MH. Think they might have left in a waiver of sorts for those who actively run their dogs and have the passes to prove it.


----------



## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

The new apprentice requirements is a shame. A person like myself that trained and handled my own dog to a master title without a pro's hand over the dogs head in competition, I have to start at the very bottom to work my way up to judge even a senior level test. I attended my first seminar and then was informed of the uphill battle it would be to judge at a higher stake. Then the last couple years seeing what the hunt test game has morphed in to with extremely watered down tests and not agreeing with them, I decided to not pursue that route any longer. If I were able to obtain all the steps needed to judge at a higher level, my tests would be difficult and fair but it seems those judges sit at the line once and are never called again. Why spend my time being able to give back to the sport when tests are becoming easier and there are 800 dogs qualified for the Master National?


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Interesting point. We have tons of HT here in MN/WI and I've been grumbling about the time investment now required, to apprentice once at each JH/SH, judge twice, before moving up a level. This new requirement is a hassle for anyone now, but, if in an area with few HT, really puts a damper on getting new judges. It's my own fault for not paying attention to the grandfather dealy and getting the MH apprentice done after I did the first seminar, when I realized what the new requirements were, it was 2 months too late and now I have to start over. Apprentice at JH then judge there twice, repeat for SH, before can judge MH. Think they might have left in a waiver of sorts for those who actively run their dogs and have the passes to prove it.


That's just crazy, at one point you were qualified to judge, then because you didn't pay attention to a grandfather clause you no longer know how to judge? I just posted on another thread that I was trying to introduce a new guy, (he has a puppy by my Gus), to hunt test, looked for nearby HT on EE only to find where we used to have four or five, we now have one. So if some local guy was asked to judge, not only would he or she have to search far and wide for a judging seminar, they would also have to travel to another State to apprentice. 

I disagree with the apprentice clause for two reasons, 1) I think having an apprentice tag along for the duration of a trial would distract judges from the task at hand, I believe a tight two person bond forms over three or four days and that leads toward a high level of focus and hopefully good test and trial. 2) I believe that if a club pays attention and makes an effort to put a new guy with an experienced proven mentor, the junior judge is going to learn more about good judging than he would as a tag along apprentice.

John


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

TroyFeeken said:


> *The new apprentice requirements is a shame*. A person like myself that trained and handled my own dog to a master title without a pro's hand over the dogs head in competition, I have to start at the very bottom to work my way up to judge even a senior level test. I attended my first seminar and then was informed of the uphill battle it would be to judge at a higher stake. Then the last couple years seeing what the hunt test game has morphed in to with extremely watered down tests and not agreeing with them, I decided to not pursue that route any longer. If I were able to obtain all the steps needed to judge at a higher level, my tests would be difficult and fair but it seems those judges sit at the line once and are never called again. Why spend my time being able to give back to the sport when tests are becoming easier and there are 800 dogs qualified for the Master National?


I guess I am in the minority on the apprenticing rule. I think it good policy. I have always believed in the role of apprenticing having started in carpenty learning from those with way more time in and experience. Just because a person has passed a master test does not mean they are capable to judge one.

There are many parts to the test and a rounded backround of Stakes chairing, working or marshaling along with several jr and sr assignments, will, IMO, make for a better Master judge. 

If I had a say, I would eliminate the requirement of needing to apprentice at each level, although I think it is a positive thing. But having judged several times at the lower levels, prior to taking on Master, is something I think will give us better judges in the long run.

JMHO


----------



## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Sure, require an apprenticeship at the master level but don't force me to apprentice at the JH level, judge twice, apprentice at the SH level, judge twice, then be able to apprentice at the MH level. Also, just because a person has judged numerous SH tests doesn't mean they can judge or even should apprentice at the MH level. There's a monumental jump between SH and MH.


----------



## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

I just thought of something that would make the process more user friendly. If you are qualified based on the standards to judge at a level (basically have done the seminar and passed a dog under the old rules), aprentice at that level but then go back and judge your 2 junior and 2 seniors before you judge a master. This would give a person the experience without taking 3 weekends to apprentice. Apprentcing is also as only as good as the judge apprentcing under. Some folks are great judges but not great teachers and vice versa.
Only problem I can see would be trying to keep track eligibility, but that is whole different topic in user friendliness of akc's judges directory.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I too as John indicated find issues with an apprentice program . I was a " Johnny come lately" in the hunt test judges circle. Just happened to be available with a long ago senior judging assigment, add a few points and the next thing after a seminar or two found myself judging a Master Hunt test. I did make a couple of trial dogs Master Hunters previously.
Having said that had many Field Trial judging assignments from the 1980's and was a eight point major and minor stakes previously. Mentored on some exceptional field trial judges and gained a ton of experience. These judges took me by the hand, showed me bird placements, test management, time management, etc. one could neverlearnas a tag along apprentice. Also, why should one who has trained a master hunter or two, put titles on the dogs apprentice at a junior stake or even a Master stake. We are depleting our own pool of good judges. One of my training partners has finished the Master National, finished a HRC Grand titled last count five Master titled dogs and can't do an assignment because of the requirement of the seminar, he has four or five Master judging assignments already completed. He is a eight point major trial judge. It just don't make any sense!


----------



## Tom Mouer (Aug 26, 2003)

According to the RAC, on January 1, 2014 I will no longer have the knowledge gained over the past 40+ years, from training, as an amateur, my retrievers. I have judged HT (all levels) and minor FT stakes, but I will lose that knowledge on the first day of January. 
The RAC has, once again, over thought a perceived problem.
If the seminars are up to date, then the judges should also be "up to speed" re changes or modifications that will take place.
I believe that Mr. Robinson has made a valid point re using FT judges.
I was looking at the AKC rule books & regulations for the other breeds, (pointer setters and spaniels) and the rule books are much thinner, and do not have explanations and sub-explanations of the rules.
HT judging was less stressful in the 80's.
Now a triple or quad is required, but in fact are just 3 or 4 single marks. I have on some hunting trips had more than one bird fall from a flight, especially if there were 2 or 3 hunter in the blind. The handler and his dog had to sort it out.
Blinds are precise lines rather than handled to the AOF and hunted up by the dog.
It started when the RAC took "Nose" off the score sheet and hasn't gotten better.
I guess I'll go find a friend with an MH dog that will let me run in a Master HT, otherwise my dog training knowledge will evaporate on New Years day!


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I guess I don't really understand the point of an AKC apprentice it's just a person who sits on a bucket behind 2 judges. You can do that from the gallery, heck the gallery is very good at it . You don't setup the test, your grading doesn't count for spit, your opinion if different from your judges doesn't add anything, you don't throw birds. You just sit on your backside for a day watching but really doing little. Perhaps one can absorb knowledge through osmosis  Then again I come from the HRC camp where an apprentice is a judge, you setup the entire test, grade and have to break news to handlers, all under guidance. Then at the end of the day the AA experienced judge, decides to approve you at the level or not. You got to get approved my multiple judges, several times before your actually considered qualified to do the job, but you're actually judging. You get thrown right in definitely getting real experience and learning by doing.


----------



## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Earlier said "I believe that if a club pays attention and makes an effort to put a new guy with an experienced proven mentor, the junior judge is going to learn more about good judging than he would as a tag along apprentice." I am thinking that the requirement for a judges panel to have 6 points meets that idea.

Sundown is the kind of judge all should be, willing to give more than required both financially and physically. I would rather run under him than some guy that says I have done it all so I am. No offense but that has gotten thin in almost every endeavor I have seen in my quite a few years.

Now go to Happy and let me tell you that having traveled this country extensively a rule book of setups might work in Oregon or Washington but that same book wouldn't work in upper Minnesota or Texas or North Carolina. Or even staying on the west coast northern CA vs southern CA. I like happy people though.

Just to add we are traveling right now to apprentice in WI just because we like the area our daughter and granddaughters live in. And we have been treated well in cheese country! So selfishly we double up and it works for us.


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I have found there are different types of apprenticeships. Some all you do is "sit on a bucket behind the judges". Others you are actively involved in everything (just like the book says you should). I have seen some apprentices not show up or show up late for set up day and still get approved. The whole apprenticeship system needs rethinking. But I guess they did that last year.


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

If a person has to apprentice at each level, what is the "total cost" to become approved to judge JH/SH/MH that you have incurred? Apprentices pay their own way--fuel, lodging, and sometimes food. At Blackhawk, the Club includes the apprentice in meals and lunches, but the apprentice pays other costs. In some areas of the country, there are quite a few hunting tests within a reasonable driving distance. In other areas of the country, there aren't very many events so anyone wanting to become approved may incur significant expense for a volunteer position. I would also like to hear thoughts to make it easier to test and attend seminars. If a person can get a real estate license online in WI, and a water-safety license online in KS, then is it possible to have AKC tests online and possibly the seminar available via Skype or some other interactive computer-assisted offering? The Performance area of the AKC doesn't generate a lot of revenue for the AKC as compared to other venues, so I can understand that the AKC cannot afford to offer the seminar all over the country whenever someone wants one. There must be some way to smooth out the process of being an approved HTest judge.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> I have seen some apprentices not show up or show up late for set up day and still get approved.


Twice I've refused to sign the apprentice sheet because the apprentice failed to fulfill his responsibilities.

When I apprenticed, I was given the job of sitting on the bucket and I said that I'd not do that if given the chance. As a result, I try to make the apprentice a member of the judging team. Apprentices don't score for the record and a couple of other things but I want them to think and perform as though they were full-fledged judges. Anything else just wastes both of our time.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

HiRollerlabs said:


> What is the out-of-pocket cost for someone who is just starting out, to become an AKC Hunting Test Judge who is approved to judge at the Master level. I know that in the clubs in which I participate, the apprentice judge covers his/her own costs (lodging, and fuel...our clubs typically pay for meals for apprentice). This would include the cost of attending two seminars (i.e., fuel, lodging, meals, seminar expense, etc.). Considering this is a volunteer position, where people give up their weekends with their families, and/or give up running their own dogs, and they get maybe a $50 gift certificate in appreciation for their sacrifice, how much is a person paying out-of-pocket to give back?


Would like to hear from clubs if the current judging requirement has made finding judges easier? 

Would like to hear from handlers if they've seen "better" judging because of the current requirements? 

Would like to know if less people are willing or able to fulfill all the apprenticeships and judging requirements before being able to judge?

Personally, I'm finding it to be a real PITA, more so even from the time involved than the expense. I've walked to the line hundreds of times at all levels of AKC HT, plus a few Derby, Qual & Amateur of late. I now have to start with a new seminar (scheduled for December, thanks for stepping up, Blackhawk Club), then apprentice at JH, judge twice at JH, apprentice at SH, judge twice at SH, apprentice at MH, THEN be able to judge MH. That's 7 weekend events before I can be considered "educated enough" to judge a MH. Yet I somehow managed to finish two MH titles this summer. Maybe it doesn't sound like a big deal to do all that just to judge, but, it is, in real time. For those of us with multiple dogs at various levels, the very ones who should be giving back by judging and using their experience, the time factor involved now is a very big obstacle. 

Short enough season as it is, get back in the water in May if we're lucky, train hard May/June, try to start running some by end of June because the tests are closest then, run July, August, season is done in September. Doesn't give a whole lot of weekends to both run our own dogs and try to give back some. I have a lot of dogs and a lot of experience, I'm one of those who should be giving back (beyond working at events) now that I am in a position to do so, but am being encouraged not to do so by these current requirements. Whining? Maybe. But, as Ann has graciously provided the contact info for everyone's RAC rep, I will be contacting mine with my feelings on the matter, maybe with enough grumbling from clubs, there might be some revisions made to these requirements, if they are proving to be more hindrance than help in getting qualified judges.

To answer the question of cost: seminar plus apprenticeships, for me in driving range, no motel, about $300-400, before I can judge a MH. Less significant to me than the time factor, but not insignificant either.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:


> Twice I've refused to sign the apprentice sheet because the apprentice failed to fulfill his responsibilities.
> 
> When I apprenticed, I was given the job of sitting on the bucket and I said that I'd not do that if given the chance. As a result, I try to make the apprentice a member of the judging team. Apprentices don't score for the record and a couple of other things but I want them to think and perform as though they were full-fledged judges. Anything else just wastes both of our time.




I agree with Eric...the judge has to have some sort of commitment to teach or show or how ever you word it to the apprentice for them to come away with some useful info on what is required and what makes for a good judge....It is somewhat distracting to a judge to have to share time and info with them instead of devoting 100% to the co-judge and talking test set up....Explaining the why's ,the if's and and's takes commitment ....Steve S


----------



## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

The only part of the new requirement I like is if you are already a judge, you need to run a dog and pass at least once in the stake or higher you are judging ever 7 yrs. I find that helps the judges remember what it is like to be on the line. But having to apprentice 2 times at all levels is very hard since you cannot judge the same leve 2 days in a row. That part really needs to change. HRC has the same type of program but the apprentice judge is one of the judges not a 3rd wheel , and they do need to start at the bottom and work up, but you can do 2 days in a row and be done.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Karen Klotthor said:


> The only part of the new requirement I like is if you are already a judge, you need to run a dog and pass at least once in the stake or higher you are judging ever 7 yrs. I find that helps the judges remember what it is like to be on the line. *But having to apprentice 2 times at all levels is very hard *since you cannot judge the same leve 2 days in a row. That part really needs to change. HRC has the same type of program but the apprentice judge is one of the judges not a 3rd wheel , and they do need to start at the bottom and work up, but you can do 2 days in a row and be done.


Is this new? I believe you still only apprentice once per level. ( unless thay changed it ) The requirement to move up a level to judge is 2 assignments at the lower level.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> Would like to hear from clubs if the current judging requirement has made finding judges easier?
> *I don't think it caused any difference this year for us.*
> To answer the question of cost: seminar plus apprenticeships, for me in driving range, no motel, about $300-400, before I can judge a MH. Less significant to me than the time factor, but not insignificant either.


Kim, I get what you are saying, but, IMOHO, having to have lower stakes assignments under your belt is a good thing in the long run. Running and judging are really different and as you know too well, the more moving parts, the more can go wrong. Learning time management, handlers mechanics, and just evaluating and documenting the dogs is not something that comes naturally, and working thru the ranks is a good way to learn it and be a better judge in the long haul. A persons attitude helps in this also. I think you will make a good judge and am glad to see your interested.


----------



## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Sorry, I did not mean Apprentice 2 times again just that you needed to judge 2 times at that level but not 2 days in a row.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> I agree with Eric...the judge has to have some sort of commitment to teach or show or how ever you word it to the apprentice for them to come away with some useful info on what is required and what makes for a good judge....It is somewhat distracting to a judge to have to share time and info with them instead of devoting 100% to the co-judge and talking test set up....Explaining the why's ,the if's and and's takes commitment ....Steve S


What happens when the apprentice judge knows more than the judges they're apprenticing under, should the apprentice step up and teach them?  I know several lower stake judges; who have never passed a master test, never trained a master dog. Yes they are qualified to judge the lower levels, but does that give them more knowledge-experience than an apprentice who has trained-up and titled several MHs. I'm sure you could judge shop for particular lower stake judges to train under, but I think most apprentices will just take what's in the available in the area, sit drooling on their bucket for 8 hrs. and keep their mouth shut .


----------



## Bob Samios (Jan 2, 2008)

Presque Isle Retriever Club of Erie PA will sponsor an AKC seminar on December 7 somewhere near Erie PA. The details are being finalized. The presenter will be Jerry Mann. Further details will follow. Please check the PIRC Facebook page.

Please spread the word!


----------



## Gov (Nov 7, 2005)

Made the suggestion at my last seminar with Jerry to have the AKC reps develop webinars or VTC's with positive sign-in and interactive features. May not be perfect, but could help fill in the gaps. It's the 21st century -you can get a PhD online....


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> If there is one, please let me know. I find the new judging requirements overly odious as it is, but now finding a seminar in reasonable distance has become problematic


I totally agree, I don't get why they make it so hard for good judges to stay current. If they keep this up we'll have about three "approved" judges in each region to do every hunt test.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> What happens *when the apprentice judge knows more than the judges* they're apprenticing under, should the apprentice step up and teach them?  I know several lower stake *judges; who have never passed a master test,* *never trained a master dog.* Yes they are qualified to judge the lower levels, but does that give them more knowledge-experience than an apprentice who has trained-up and titled several MHs. I'm sure you could judge shop for particular lower stake judges to train under, but I think most apprentices will just take what's in the available in the area, sit drooling on their bucket for 8 hrs. and keep their mouth shut .



YES...but ...in the way of asking questions that leads to increasing knowledge not flaunting it...Some people just don't want the hassle of the master test...they like dealing with the young dogs and simpler test... 
When it comes to the ability to judge and the ability to train or run dogs they do not always go together...The system for qualifying judges is far from perfect...Just like the Ft judges ....run dogs and get ask to sit in the chair....I don't have the answers to improve the system or the judges that are already in the chairs...There are fewer and fewer judges that are willing to jump through all the hoops to move up or stay in the game....Some people have raised and trained their last dog and have tons of experience that will be out of the pool in 7 or less years....Being a no participant doesn't over ride years of experience...Just as running the Master National makes one qualified to judge it....Steve S


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

shawninthesticks said:


> And you did a heck of a job doing that at my first hunt test ,thanks


Mine too. I would run under Mr. Otey any time.


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Shawn and Steve Thank you for the compliments. That is a very good reward to me...


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I hope to try this at some point when I have taken my current dog as far as we can go. I would probably be considered a PITA by the judges I was apprenticing with because I would treat the assignment like I treat a training day with a good pro - it's time to ask questions and learn. The pro already knows what he is doing. 

Judging can only help with training, as you would be forced to really think about bird placement in the context of the various concepts and how they fit in on a particular set of grounds. 



Eric Johnson said:


> Twice I've refused to sign the apprentice sheet because the apprentice failed to fulfill his responsibilities.
> 
> When I apprenticed, I was given the job of sitting on the bucket and I said that I'd not do that if given the chance. As a result, I try to make the apprentice a member of the judging team. Apprentices don't score for the record and a couple of other things but I want them to think and perform as though they were full-fledged judges. Anything else just wastes both of our time.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I hope to try this at some point when I have taken my current dog as far as we can go. *I would probably be considered a PITA by the judges* I was apprenticing with because I would treat the assignment like I treat a training day with a good pro -* it's time to ask questions and learn. * The pro already knows what he is doing.
> 
> Judging can only help with training, as you would be forced to really think about bird placement in the context of the various concepts and how they fit in on a particular set of grounds.


You sound like a good one to have join the judges pool...Here are two questions to ask ....#1 Why are you putting that bird there ( instead of x place) ...#2 What answers are you expecting to get from this set up ..? Steve S


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> What happens when the apprentice judge knows more than the judges they're apprenticing under, should the apprentice step up and teach them?  I know several lower stake judges; who have never passed a master test, never trained a master dog. Yes they are qualified to judge the lower levels, but does that give them more knowledge-experience than an apprentice who has trained-up and titled several MHs. I'm sure you could judge shop for particular lower stake judges to train under, but I think most apprentices will just take what's in the available in the area, sit drooling on their bucket for 8 hrs. and keep their mouth shut .


Interesting. I think it's easier to watch two dogs run and decide which one did a better job vs watch two dogs run and decide if they got a 7 or an 8 based on the standard.

/Paul


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

steve schreiner said:


> You sound like a good one to have join the judges pool...Here are two questions to ask ....#1 Why are you putting that bird there ( instead of x place) ...#2 What answers are you expecting to get from this set up ..? Steve S


Exactly right. If you would let such an opportunity go by without asking those questions, you are probably cheating yourself as well.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Interesting. I think it's easier to watch two dogs run and decide which one did a better job vs watch two dogs run and decide if they got a 7 or an 8 based on the standard.
> 
> /Paul


When you set up a series do you have a preconceived idea of what you are expecting the dog to do? Like ,I think the average dog will do this blind in 4 whistles and they will come in certain places along the route...OR ..most dogs will have a longer hunt ,bigger area hunt on X bird..Steve S


----------

