# Total cost of obtaining FC?



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

I'm quite new to this game and have no dilisions of my current clf getting there but I read many threads talking about the time and expense of running FT's and getting a dog to FC/AFC titles.

Putting aside the cost of the pup itself (becasue it's obvious that this can vary from several hundred to several thousand $'s), what would you estimate (or know from experience) the cost to get an 8 week old pup FT ready and, assuming they have what it takes, FC and/or AFC titled?

1st, if I was to buy the pup and put her with a pro to train and run.

2nd, what is the the average annual expense to run a FT dog? Both owner handled and pro handled?

If there's been another thread on this, link would be appreciated.

Thanks.


----------



## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it.

I don't think anyone is going to want to admit to the cost of achieving titles of those magnitude. Also, you can't put a price on having good luck (I fully understand that luck is the result of hard work and effort. The harder/smarter you work, the luckier you usually get.)

Buy the best/healthiest pup you can afford, socialize it the best you are able, send the pup to the best trainers you can afford (and that your pup fits well with) and hope for the best.....and to be lucky.


Best regards -

Travis


----------



## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

PRICELESS........All I know is that I would cut off vital parts of my anatomy to have a dog become a FC. Money ? Money ? If that's all it took was money, I would have bought a couple of wins by now. 

1st The right dog.
2nd The right trainer for THAT dog.
3rd The right number of trials for that dog to get the WIN & the points. Could be 2 or 200.

There is reallly no way to figure this other than get somebody who has a FC AFC CFC CAFC
to admit what it cost them.

I know what I have tied up in 3 dogs that betwwen them have 3 wins and 54 1/2 AA points.
Only 1 has a title. I'm not saying, but you could put a kid thru a GOOD College.

John
________
Michimasa Fujino


----------



## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

$40,000.00 is a figure I hear mentioned a lot.
cost of pup, medical expenses, pro training and handling fees, etc, etc, etc.

It is very doubtful anyone would tell you the cost of making their dog FC.


----------



## 42288 (Dec 28, 2007)

A-If you send them to a top pro trainer $600 to $800 a month (in 1999 prices) , every month for the first 4-5 years of their life, plus entry fees $50 x number of entries plus travel and bonus for placing. requires no commitment but sending the check every month

B-If you do it yourself $400- $500 training with a pro and good amateurs, for equipment, gas, traveling 20 days a month, and "dues" (what new people pay to train with pros and good amateurs, get muddy, cold, stinky and a strong right arm). Requires 100 % commitment, a spouse that either comes with you or doesn’t care if you're gone, same with your boss. Oh, you will buy a new truck, so $32,000 +. Your training every weekend and every night after work usually miles from home so your family will not recognize you. If you are young and single, retired people are now your social network. 

If you get an FC after all of that you'll forget all about A & B. Neither A&B are guarantees. I didn't get an FC but I loved all 18 years competing.


Linda, Lucy, Molly, Daisy 
www.aklurcher.com


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

lablover said:


> $40,000.00 is a figure I hear mentioned a lot.
> cost of pup, medical expenses, pro training and handling fees, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> It is very doubtful anyone would tell you the cost of making their dog FC.



Thanks. And I appologize if I sounded like I expected someone to get out the calculator and receipts from the last year and give me an exact figure. I was just looking at a good estimate or range. 

I've heard lots of people talk about not having the resources and/or how expensive it is to train/run a dog in a FT circuit but "it costs a lot" is such a relative thing that this could mean $1,000 to one person and $100,000 to another. 

Thanks again.


----------



## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

To have a pro do it - 5-6 years of 1K - 1.5K a month - probably 18K a year to be on the AA circuit - so 3 years of that - 2 years in the minor stakes at about 12K a year - so I figure 75K turn key with the right dog - and not a lot of washouts.

Doing it yourself is probably pretty close to the same price. You will save a little on training - but it will cost you alot more to run trials. 18 trials a year - pro running the dog - will cost you ~3600-4000.

You running 18 trials will probably cost closer to 500 a trial or ~8K to 9K depending on how far you travel and where you stay.
500 is with 150 entrys fees / 150 gas / 200 motel for Thursday - Sat.


----------



## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Rick_C said:


> 1st, if I was to buy the pup and put her with a pro to train and run.


I am pretty new to the game my self, but I would think it looks something like this:

$700 or more a month training ($8400 a year, $42000 for 5 years)

For the Open, somewhere around $200 per trial (handling/entry/expenses) Say 25 trials a year. $5000 a year

If you want to run the Am in some of those trials, add $70 entry fee, $70 a night hotel, or campground charges, food, etc.



Rick_C said:


> 2nd, what is the the average annual expense to run a FT dog? Both owner handled and pro handled?


See above

Owner Handled, add $70 and Fridays off to the Am numbers....

I'm sure others will correct any mistakes I may have made.


----------



## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

Given you buy a puppy with the ability to win. This will take numerous tries....that is considering one of your numerous tries is the right dog. Then here it goes. 

$2500 (easy figure) for the puppy. After the first year of training, (considering you kept the puppy until he/she was 6 months old), you would have approximately another $7500 into the pup. This gets them to 18 months old. Now the pup starts to compete, say 20 derbies...entrance fee of average $70 and a handling fee of $75...for easy math, let's just say $75 each. $150 X 20 trials = $3000. Plus the 6 months of training from 18-24 months at a cost of $600 = another $3600. Now your at $16,600 to get to 2 years old. It's probably closer to $18,000. If this puppy is good, and we're saying for argument sake he/she is.....then you can tack on an average of $10-$12,000 per year for the rest of his/her competitive career. Which can average 5-6 years of actually being competitive or at the least running quite a few all age trials. I'm roughly figuring $84,000. This is considering that your pro is running the dog and training the dog and you don't go watch a trial or run a trial. If you go and watch, it cost approx. $300 for a weekend to be gone from home, if you run them, add another $75 per stake you enter. This ought to get you pretty darn close.

Mike

Started a bunch of them, just haven't got the FC/AFC NFC/NAFC yet! But my times coming!


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I bought Ace (Sky Hy Husker Power) as a started dog at _____ at 1 ½ years of age, and paid a kicker of _____ when he became qualified All Age.

I paid approximately $___ per month for training for the next 7 years.

Beginning in 2003, I ran approximately 15 trials per year with Ace.

I estimate that I drove some 30,000 miles per year in training or trial related travel. Figure mileage at $.40 per mile, that is $12,000.

Figure entry fees at approximately $65 per stake (Open and Am), this means entry fees of $130 per trial or fees of $1,950 per year.

Figure three nights lodging minimum per trial at approximately $60 per night or $180 per trial or $2,700 per year.

Figure meals at $30 per day per trial times four days, or $120 per trial, or $1,800 per year.

So annual trial expenses are approximately $18,450.

This does not include the cost of running a National

Nor does it include the cost of not working and making money

Ace became an AFC in 2003; he became a FC in 2006. 

We ran the National Open in 2003
And the National Amateur in 2004 and 2005

It was a good run

And well worth the cost, whatever it totals out to be


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Don't forget about medical costs.

Unless you feel really lucky.

I wonder what the cost of a master hunter is?

Have another vet appointment in the morning regards...


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

My _God_ I hate threads like this......................................................:neutral:

No offense intended to the originator regards,

kg


----------



## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

$35.200 plus entries thats at 3 years with a pro and ect


----------



## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

And many more spend those bucks and end up with no title.


----------



## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Russ said:


> And many more spend those bucks and end up with no title.


Many many more.


----------



## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I guess we were lucky Elwood paid his costs with two feet on the ground, other than the puppy cost.


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Mike, Ted, really good info and greatly appreciated.

And KG, sorry. 

This really does help give me a point of reference though.

Thanks again.


----------



## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Please do not forget all the seminars and workshops expenses w/c includes registration, accomodation, meals, travel expenses. If you are bringing a dog, there is additional registration fee, travel expense, and accomodation. I estimate around $800- 1500

In addition, travel expenses when you are picking up a dog from your pro i.e. x'mas break, seminars/workshops, running a FT


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Lance-CO said:


> Please do not forget all the seminars and workshops expenses w/c includes registration, accomodation, meals, travel expenses. If you are bring a dog, there is additional registration fee, travel expense, and accomodation. I estimate around $800- 1500
> 
> In addition, travel expenses when you are picking up a dog from your pro i.e. x'mas break, seminars/workshops, running a FT


Yeah no kidding.

I really had no clue how expensive it was and I'm a bit taken aback by what I've learned today.

I didn't/don't plan on getting this deep into the game but it sure explains the cost of well bred pups!! Frankly with FC x FC breedings, I'm a little surprised the pups are _only_ $2.5k or so.


----------



## Barb/x2crr (Oct 18, 2005)

Once you have an FC you forget the costs and only remember what a fantastic dog you have and the thrill of a life time. For every thing else there is Master Card.


----------



## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Yeah no kidding.
> 
> I really had no clue how expensive it was and I'm a bit taken aback by what I've learned today.
> 
> I didn't/don't plan on getting this deep into the game but it sure explains the cost of well bred pups!! Frankly with FC x FC breedings, I'm a little surprised the pups are _only_ $2.5k or so.


Mine is not an FC x FC but I'm going all the way where my pup will take me. I think I'm too deep w/ my pup already to stop.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Don't forget all the cool toys you'll need. Since your bound to end up with multiple dogs to deal with the wash outs and improve your chances, you'll need a new truck 50k, a new dog box 20k, training equipment 10k, a full line of clothing 5k, therapy sessions 1k per month, and the divorce god only knows....

/Paul


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Don't forget all the cool toys you'll need. Since your bound to end up with multiple dogs to deal with the wash outs and improve your chances, you'll need a new truck 50k, a new dog box 20k, training equipment 10k, a full line of clothing 5k, therapy sessions 1k per month, and the divorce god only knows....
> 
> /Paul


LOL too funny :lol:


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

The question of cost seems insignificant relative what you get from the dog that takes you to places you may have only dreamed of. And along that journey if you pay attention you will learn what you are made of. The circle of those who have spent their time intensely persuing the dog field sports is small. Just read a few of the obits in Retreiver Field Trial News of the dogs or the people. You will come away with a sense of what their owners feel for their dogs and what the peers feel for fellow competitors. Those among us who give their all for the sport regardless of the venue are different from the vast majority.
So calculate your cost if you must and perhaps down the road you may ask yourself why you even considered asking the question.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

If your married while your trying to obtain your F/C and your spouse is not into it you'll be giving over half of your networth to your now ex-spouse and your lawyer. Now thats priceless


----------



## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Nobody has mentioned the most expensive part. Everything mentioned above is infinitesimal to this expense. That is buying and developing land suitable for training, trials, and hunting tests. After the purchase of land you have to put in ponds, roads, crushed rock for the roads, underground electricity, well, buy tractors and equipment to maintain property. After all of this is done, yearly real estate taxes on the property. Here in Wisconsin there will be 5 AKC events on my property this year. Now replicate this down in southwest Georgia for winter training. And of course, you have to have an RTV 900 for the south property and a duplicate for the north property. Just purchased a new 4 wheel drive 70 horsepower tractor plus a 295 brush hog for maintenance of the north property. I allow club members in good standing who work at AKC events free access to this property for training. And also 4 pros regularly use the property. All of this is free for people who are dedicated to the sport.

Jack


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

junbe said:


> Nobody has mentioned the most expensive part. Everything mentioned above is infinitesimal to this expense. That is buying and developing land suitable for training, trials, and hunting tests. After the purchase of land you have to put in ponds, roads, crushed rock for the roads, underground electricity, well, buy tractors and equipment to maintain property. After all of this is done, yearly real estate taxes on the property. Here in Wisconsin there will be 5 AKC events on my property this year. Now replicate this down in southwest Georgia for winter training. And of course, you have to have an RTV 900 for the south property and a duplicate for the north property. Just purchased a new 4 wheel drive 70 horsepower tractor plus a 295 brush hog for maintenance of the north property. I allow club members in good standing who work at AKC events free access to this property for training. And also 4 pros regularly use the property. All of this is free for people who are dedicated to the sport.
> 
> Jack


If you've ever considered adopting, I'm available. I don't think my real dad will mind.


----------



## Tom Hawley (Apr 25, 2005)

Purchase price $800

Training (with a pro) $600 a month (more or less)


Watching the dog swim to the last bird in a tough last series when you are the only one to do the test..........PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!! 

we do this crazzzzzy sport because we love the dogs and the sport it is what we do and if you haven't started then don't it is addictive and a lot of fun!!!!!!!!

Go out and enjoy yourself have fun with the dogs,run what you can afford get with a training group and enjoy the sport


----------



## Georgia.Belle (Dec 5, 2006)

Ironwood said:


> The question of cost seems insignificant relative what you get from the dog that takes you to places you may have only dreamed of. And along that journey if you pay attention you will learn what you are made of. The circle of those who have spent their time intensely persuing the dog field sports is small. Just read a few of the obits in Retreiver Field Trial News of the dogs or the people. You will come away with a sense of what their owners feel for their dogs and what the peers feel for fellow competitors. Those among us who give their all for the sport regardless of the venue are different from the vast majority.
> So calculate your cost if you must and perhaps down the road you may ask yourself why you even considered asking the question.


The redhead sits in the gallery wants her pride and joy to kick butt. Ironwood is correct, it doesn't matter how much it costs.


----------



## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

After reading this,it looks like the AKC should require to see our W2's for approval before we even think about running a dog.


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Illinois Bob said:


> After reading this,it looks like the AKC should require to see our W2's for approval before we even think about running a dog.


What should the minimum requirement be?


----------



## DuckManiac (May 10, 2004)

AFC - Arm
FC - Leg

Tony


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

junbe said:


> Nobody has mentioned the most expensive part. Everything mentioned above is infinitesimal to this expense. That is buying and developing land suitable for training, trials, and hunting tests. After the purchase of land you have to put in ponds, roads, crushed rock for the roads, underground electricity, well, buy tractors and equipment to maintain property. After all of this is done, yearly real estate taxes on the property. Here in Wisconsin there will be 5 AKC events on my property this year. Now replicate this down in southwest Georgia for winter training. And of course, you have to have an RTV 900 for the south property and a duplicate for the north property. Just purchased a new 4 wheel drive 70 horsepower tractor plus a 295 brush hog for maintenance of the north property. I allow club members in good standing who work at AKC events free access to this property for training. And also 4 pros regularly use the property. All of this is free for people who are dedicated to the sport.
> 
> Jack


Jack,

Thanks for that little reminder......we stopped and looked at tractors the other week, only a little over 16k for a small-medium sized one, but we need it......and this is only for 52 acres.....and that is way too small, but at least it is a place I can shoot live fliers! 

Oh well, everytime I start figuring out what I have vested in just Bullet, I shake my head and think of all the other things I could of spent the money on.....then I look at the cool ribbons hanging on the wall with all the goofy dust collectors and remember the feeling of finishing my first AA stake and think it was well worth it! As far as a title - mmmmmm, I hope and pray that is just around the corner!

Lainee, Flash and Bullet


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

DuckManiac said:


> AFC - Arm
> FC - Leg
> 
> Tony


That's all??? hahahahahahahaha

Is that per dog????

FOM


----------



## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Buzz said:


> What should the minimum requirement be?


I don't know Buzz.What's the least expensive way to get an FC title?
I know from reading here that it's probably too expensive for me.I'm not going to refinance my house for it.

One good thing about the costs of Field Trials to trialers though,It keeps out the riff-raff.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

This subject is just too depressing. I just got a new puppy and my pro asked "what are you going to do if he's good too?" There are not a lot of options (already refinanced...twice).


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> *This subject is just too depressing*. I just got a new puppy and my pro asked "what are you going to do if he's good too?" There are not a lot of options (already refinanced...twice).


Even having had an FC/AFC and two dogs with All-Age placements now, truer words have never been spoken.

Is there no cure for this disease regards,

kg


----------



## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

We all need a 12 step program,

My name is Laura and I've been in retrievers for 13 years.............


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Ironwood said:


> The question of cost seems insignificant relative what you get from the dog that takes you to places you may have only dreamed of. And along that journey if you pay attention you will learn what you are made of. The circle of those who have spent their time intensely persuing the dog field sports is small. Just read a few of the obits in Retreiver Field Trial News of the dogs or the people. You will come away with a sense of what their owners feel for their dogs and what the peers feel for fellow competitors. Those among us who give their all for the sport regardless of the venue are different from the vast majority.
> So calculate your cost if you must and perhaps down the road you may ask yourself why you even considered asking the question.


This pretty much says it all. Sorry I missed it first time around. Well said, Ironwood.

All I would add to the original poster is....if you are going to count *costs* rather than *investments*, get out now.....or, better yet, don't get in. You'll never realize any true enjoyment if all you ever think about is the money spent.

And Laura, thanks for making me laugh.......

kg


----------



## TRC (Dec 13, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> This subject is just too depressing. I just got a new puppy and my pro asked "what are you going to do if he's good too?" There are not a lot of options (already refinanced...twice).


You could find a partner to split cost. Or, you could sell the pup to me. 

Question for everyone

If you owned a dog with all the talent in the world and the dog will become a FC/AFC with the proper training and campaigning, would you sell your dog if you could not afford to keep him/her trialing? Is it about the dog or the person at this point?


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

No I would not sell my dog.....


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

FOM said:


> No I would not sell my dog.....


My first thought was, Do the dogs know if they are titled or not?


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

_



If you owned a dog with all the talent in the world and the dog will become a FC/AFC with the proper training and campaigning, would you sell your dog *if you could not afford to keep him/her trialing*?

Click to expand...

_Depends on two things, in this order:

1) Who the buyer is and who would be training the dog....

and....

2) What the offer was.

kg


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Buzz said:


> My first thought was, Do the dogs know if they are titled or not?


The only thing the LOYAL dogs know is they got a bird & brought it to their OWNER! The RIBBONS & TITLES mean nothing to them as they do not have an EGO!


----------



## TRC (Dec 13, 2007)

FOM said:


> No I would not sell my dog.....


Would you sell a washout?


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

TRC said:


> Would you sell a washout?


Currently no, I buy a dog for the long term.....but things change and I would not rule out selling a dog, which I have in the past, but that's because the dog and myself just did not click and I found myself not liking her one bit, but a hunter fell in love with her and I sold her because I knew she would have a better life - last I heard she was still chasing pheasants in KS and loving life! So I would probably have no problem selling a "washout" but if I clicked with the dog, it would be given the chance to run HTs and of course be a hunting dog....Flash is getting old!

FOM


----------



## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

K G said:


> Depends on two things, in this order:
> 
> 1) Who the buyer is and who would be training the dog....
> 
> ...


#1 Would be the only question I'd need to ask. If I ever felt there was a reason I honestly couldn't care for the dog (illness, etc.) I'd give him to the right person, but I wouldn't sell him no matter the amount. I'd rather see someone I really like & trust the dog with take him to a title like that than a perfect stranger who wrote me a check.


M


----------



## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I was wondering how many breeder-owners have taken a puppy from the whelping box to the title? I know many breeders produced a field champion, but have planned the breeding as well as campaigned the dog.


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

ftrjuj said:


> The RIBBONS & TITLES mean nothing to them as they do not have an EGO!


Marvin, we can finally agree!
Most of us do this for fun and winning is great but if you need an FC/AFC to have fun it will cost big dollars. If not, enjoy the process, your dog(s),the times and some of people you meet along the way.

Tim


----------



## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

I can't imagine ever selling my poochie. I got her to be a friend that I hang out with, hunt with and live with. The rest is just my bonus. And probably hers except for the mostly green and orange ribbons I have made into a shrine.... She just likes the birds and fluffy bed..

Of course, no one would ever ask me because she isn't FC/AFC.. I know this...


----------



## DKR (May 9, 2003)

It’s relative, there have been posts here for $15,000 to $25,000 annually I think there are many people in a position to be able to prioritize and commit the resources to do this. You don’t see many little kids at a trial. I know several people who pay for this type of training and trialing. I also know a few people within a few miles of here who have wins/placements in all age stakes that get up every morning “put their boots on” and go to work.
They train when and where they can, they meet and get to know every land owner they can. They find every public park they can. They have one maybe two competitive dogs and commit to a smaller number of trials annually. For this effort they have the Blue and have been as diligent as anyone. 

It takes an exceptional dog and an exceptional commitment no matter how you play the game.


----------



## TRC (Dec 13, 2007)

FOM said:


> Currently no, I buy a dog for the long term.....but things change and I would not rule out selling a dog, which I have in the past, but that's because the dog and myself just did not click and I found myself not liking her one bit, but a hunter fell in love with her and I sold her because I knew she would have a better life - last I heard she was still chasing pheasants in KS and loving life! So I would probably have no problem selling a "washout" but if I clicked with the dog, it would be given the chance to run HTs and of course be a hunting dog....Flash is getting old!
> 
> FOM


Yeah, it's tough to sell your dog. I kept my "washout" for 10 years. It seems very common after reading here and talking to other people that many of the top dogs change hands for various reasons. Trialing is a game for some and a business for others.


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Miriam Wade said:


> #1 Would be the only question I'd need to ask. If I ever felt there was a reason I honestly couldn't care for the dog (illness, etc.) I'd give him to the right person, but I wouldn't sell him no matter the amount. I'd rather see someone I really like & trust the dog with take him to a title like that than a perfect stranger who wrote me a check.
> 
> 
> M


The original question included the caveat:


> If you owned a dog with all the talent in the world and the dog will become a FC/AFC with the proper training and campaigning, *would you sell your dog if you could not afford to keep him/her trialing*?


Adding additional qualifiers _might_ change one's answer regards,

kg


----------



## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I was wondering how many breeder-owners have taken a puppy from the whelping box to the title? I know many breeders produced a field champion, but have planned the breeding as well as campaigned the dog.


I did and the AKC sent me a medal! I'm serious, they really did send me a medal.


Laura


----------



## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

DKR said:


> It’s relative, there have been posts here for $15,000 to $25,000 annually...It takes an exceptional dog and an exceptional commitment no matter how you play the game.


That is just if you pay to have it done…if you do the training yourself and you try and put a price on lost business, family time, etc. I think that you will find it cost a lot more. It is not like the hunt test game where a guy/gal can produce a GMHR, MH or whatever in a few hours a week.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Training bill this year was $16,000 for one dog, including his open entry fees. Autumn Run does not charge a handling fee. This does not include Amateur entry fees, nor by costs for attending, only my pro's. 

When I first go into this sport, and Honor got his first derby ribbon ( called it the $15,000 ribbon. Right then and there, Greg Bartlett told me never to add it up, or else I wouldn't do it. I haven't until this year. Mr. Attar emailed me an accounting, so the number was right in my face..... 

Honor was 5 when he got his FC. He started training at 6 months old, minus 9-12 months off of a pro truck while waiting for an opening with Andy. 

It's an expensive sport. I give up a lot of things to do it.... did you know 10 year old computers still work?  But, it's the love the game, the dogs, and the incredible journey. 

And, I've stopped using MC. It's very easy to loose track. If I don't have the $$$, I don't run.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

North Mountain said:


> We all need a 12 step program,
> 
> My name is Laura and I've been in retrievers for 13 years.............


Advice to the newby: step back from the dog and turn and run while you can. There IS no other way out!



> If you owned a dog with all the talent in the world and the dog will become a FC/AFC with the proper training and campaigning, would you sell your dog if you could not afford to keep him/her trialing? Is it about the dog or the person at this point?


It all depends on the dog. The older one I have now- orders were he could not be washed. He will not go anywhere. I can't say I wouldn't place another dog in a good fit home if he were washed. Puppy has his head under 6 inches of new snow pushing it like a snowplow and came up with a part of a fuzzy toy and flung it up. The jury is out on him for awhile.


----------



## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

TRC said:


> Question for everyone
> 
> If you owned a dog with all the talent in the world and the dog will become a FC/AFC with the proper training and campaigning....quote]
> 
> ...


----------



## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

People with even more money and less sense might want to buy and run a thoroughbred horse.

Mark


----------



## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

K G said:


> The original question included the caveat:
> 
> Adding additional qualifiers _might_ change one's answer regards,
> 
> kg


You're right Keith. So-to properly answer the question-No, I wouldn't sell the dog. 

Let me ask though-IF a dog truly had what it took to go all the way & had a good foundation and had gotten some solid polishing up w/ a pro-couldn't an amateur owner, who wasn't to the manor born, substitute time & sweat equity training for money paid out to someone else? Or is it really all dollars and cents (or sense in ths case!)

Seabiscuit Regards-

M


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

It goes kinda like this, I asked my insurance man what kind of gas mileage he got on his Dodge Durango. He told me it doesn't matter he didn't buy it for the gas mileage.

It's all about the dog! your priorities, your pocketbook, and your goals. It's a question that one doesn't ask in the Field Trial Game. I know there are a lot of newbies here, but, making a FC and/or a AFC is an accomplishment. The owner may have bought his way into the game, SO WHAT, he/she are contributors to the sport. The dog maybe going on "winter Trips" or part time Pro training and the owner trains the dog part-time , SO WHAT, they are contributors. OR if one is lucky enough to have a Championship caliber dog (thats the first thing you have to have ,a talented dog) and does thier own training so be it, they are contributors. 

ie; contributors, taking judging assignments, working at club events, supporting through quality breeding, bringing the standard of the game up through "great trained dogs" etc etc.

J.P. Morgan once said if you have to ask you can't afford it. (another poster echoed this)

It's all about the dogs at the trial level. It's a team sport and you and the dog are a team.

GET yourself a talented dog first, have it evaluated in training, then THINK about where you are going. This isn't "I am going to get me one", unless of course you buy one already titled. 

Not a rant just some thoughts and now I will go back in my hole.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

North Mountain said:


> I did and the AKC sent me a medal! I'm serious, they really did send me a medal.
> 
> 
> Laura


Me too! I was suprised! AFC Titled, campaigned (co-owner and myself) and finaly giving him a good home, until he died at the age of 9 of cancer. Still have his "evil twin" and at ten he is running strong, but, his field trial title eludes him. So we settled for his hunt test titles.


----------



## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

Most of those who have responded have done so from the perspective of a pro trained dog. I am a do-it-myself kind of person, and not being obligated to write that check every month gives me much better control over the expenses. 

The first difference is that with all the money one saves by not using a pro, one can afford to own more dogs to improve the odds of getting that really good one. So I now have started about a dozen pups over the past 15 years. Economies of scale. 

However, with 8 or 10 dogs one has to have a vehicle to transport the dogs to and from training and trials. So 15 years ago I started with a Suburban that now has 250,000 miles on it, but it could only accommodate 5 dogs comfortably. I am now on my second Chev 3500 dually with chassis mount dog box. But hey, I would have needed some form of transportation to get myself to the trial to watch my pro run my dog, right? 

So to save on the cost transportation to and from training grounds, we decided to purchase 160 acres of land for training. Of course, we could not afford improved land so had to settle for less expensive land and another do-it-myself project. I was soon the proud owner of a very uded D-7 Caterpillar dozer and a shiny new John Deere 4-wheel drive utility tractor to clear and improve the land. Unfortunately that little six month project actually took over two years working daylight to dark 7 days a week so the dogs actually got no training during that time. However, I gained so many new skills replacing almost every part on the D-7 radiator to rollers and every hydraulic and oil line. There was also the 100,000 +/- cubic yards of dirt moved for the construction of the five ponds, three of which are now bone dry, and wells to try to keep a little water in a couple of them.

However my trial expenses are dirt cheap because I do not have to pay those pro handler fees and bonuses for placements; I have only the travel, motel and food expenses and very few placements.

So after all that, I am still looking for the first FC. I have trained three dogs to AFC titles, three more with all age points, and one more QAA but the closest we have come to the FC titles is open seconds. But I am not obligated to write that check every month. 

Just saying that there is no cheap way to get there, but I suspect that the more pricy pup out of the FC AFC bitch with a good pro is probably to least expensive way to go. That just doesn’t happen to be my thing. I have dogs because I enjoy having dogs with me, so we muddle along and do the best we can. 

I am calling the AKC on Monday to find out where my metal is.


----------



## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Earl, you are right on the mark.

As far as washouts and selling or finding a different home for the dog.
My first "washout" not gonna be a QAA or better prospect. Was a tough decision to "let go"
Better in my mind to put the dog where he will be that owners "world" not an also ran here.
You know you did the right thing by the dog when the owners snd a X-mas card with the kids and the dog on a hunting trip. 
I am not going to keep a dog around that does not have Minimum standards of performance. For me that is the QAA/MH at 2 or 3 years old. When you take the 1st puppy/litter you ever raised, train it yourself, and acheive a certain level of accomplishment.
You have pretty well set the bar for yourself and every dog there after.
There's a saying........Once you drive a Cadillac.
________
Mercury My history


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Oh, and no, I would not sell my dog. They are mine, bottom line. And, they don't really want to belong to someone else, so it works out well.


----------



## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Richard Halstead said:


> I was wondering how many breeder-owners have taken a puppy from the whelping box to the title? I know many breeders produced a field champion, but have planned the breeding as well as campaigned the dog.


Bill and Sarita McKnight breeder/owner/trainer of AFC Moonstone Hug and Moochie and Laura Nordbergs dogs are the only 2 I know of, I'm sure there are others. AKC should have a list somewhere, too bad it isn't published. The medalion from AKC is beautiful!

Kris


----------



## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

So, where do we sign-in for the 12 set program, since I'm about to plunge into the addiction? Do you think I could still be help? Not!  Already bought my plane ticket to drop off my pup w/ my pro at GA and I'm already registered to go to Dave Rorem workshop next month. This is good thread to what to expect financially. At least, I could start saving now. 

Angelo


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

After paying $300,000 to educate my kids, educating my dogs looks cheap....if only I had any money left.


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

K G said:


> This pretty much says it all. Sorry I missed it first time around. Well said, Ironwood.
> 
> All I would add to the original poster is....if you are going to count *costs* rather than *investments*, get out now.....or, better yet, don't get in. You'll never realize any true enjoyment if all you ever think about is the money spent.
> 
> ...


No offense but you have missed the point of my post.

It wasn't about "counting costs", my enjoyment of the breed, dogs in general, hunting etc... has nothing to do with the cost involved. This wasn't a moral or ethical question, I'm not trying to weigh whether or not it's worth it because of the cost involved, I'm not just looking at the cost and forgetting about the fun and sense of accomplishment of raising, training or running a dog.

I found this site three weeks ago. Before that, while I knew they existed, I had no contact with anyone involved in FT's, let alone any personal involvement. I have read many, many posts talking about having a "great" dog but not the resources to train/run them at the highest levels. 

Having no point of reference, not the slightest clue really, I simply was looking for a general idea of what it costs annually to get a dog (assuming, of course, that they're good enough in the first place) to FC so I had a better understanding when reading said posts.

For those of you that got it, thanks much for the imput.

Edit: And if I've offended anyone by asking about costs, I sincerly appologize. That certainly was not my intent. I was under the impression this was a place to come to to learn about the sport and, in my mind as a noobie, this was a logical starting point.


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Rick, this was contained in your original post:



> what would you estimate (or know from experience) the cost to get an 8 week old pup FT ready and, assuming they have what it takes, FC and/or AFC titled?
> 
> 1st, if I was to buy the pup and put her with a pro to train and run.
> 
> 2nd, what is the the average annual expense to run a FT dog? Both owner handled and pro handled?


You've seen the gamut of responses. I don't see how your point has been missed. I certainly "got it." You just might not have gotten responses in the manner that you thought you'd get them, you being fairly new to all of this.

What you got was a bunch of "real life" responses from "real life" competitors. I certainly don't think you offended anyone simply by asking, based on the answers I've seen. 

Personally, I think you've been answered as candidly as I've ever seen anyone answered on the subject. I can tell you that if I had asked that question when I had just started out, knowing what I know now, I'd still have done it anyway....I'd just have made some different "purchase" decisions along the way.

RTF is a great place to hang out, learn, contribute, and participate. There's a ton of good folks and knowledge here. Have fun with the sport!

kg


----------



## drewsmith (Dec 29, 2007)

Just finished a nice 20 run kennel for the low, low price of $54,000. Fortunately, I split it with someone as crazy as myself.


----------



## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Hey, Laura, I never got a medal from AKC. Do you think they discriminated against me because I have Goldens????

My first trial dog was whelped in my kitchen out of my OTCH bitch. He was trained by me and earned an AFC (44 1/2 AA pts), MH, UDT and for Golden owners was an OS and in their FDHF. He never spent any time on a pro's truck. I did go once a week to train with a pro so I could have some birds and some land to use. That later increased to twice a week. When not there, I trained usually by myself in local parks and at UCSB playing fields. I attended some clinics and on occasion joined up with a good pro for a week of training. I was working at the time so could only go to about seven to nine trials a year and never could really go off on a circuit. I started out with Tom Quinn's book in my hand---there were no Lardy tapes, etc. at that point----makes me really, really old, I know.

I got his son as a stud fee pup, and at this point, trained that pup some at home and then did send him out for basics and early transition training. After that, he was at home. He got an FC/AFC and again for Golden persons an OS and FDHF. He has five MH legs as he didn't like being retired, and if I can ever find the time to attend a few more hunt tests, would be fun to get his MH. 

Hammer (FC/AFC Lab) was purchased as a washout when he was three. He was always at home with me (although I would day train with a pro at when I could) except for a few months when I injured my back.

It was a lot less expensive to do it that way. I don't necessarily think it was better.

Since then, I have used a pro at various times with different dogs, and a lot with a couple of my later dogs. I do like to have my dogs at home as much as possible, and if on a pro's truck, I like to be there on the spot training as much as I can. At this stage of my life, having a pro, and having one with whom I have a very good relationship, is a big advantage. It is almost impossible to train at home due to more and more restrictions; no one to train with; no land and no water; and the difficulties of being competitive training in that manner are sometimes overwhelming. I enjoy being with a good training group and knowing my dog is getting the kind of training he needs on a regular basis. My pro obviously cares well for the dogs and provides excellent training for them. The older dogs (including one FC/AFC Lab) are at home with me and told me they do a lot of visualization so don't need to work out quite as hard as the young ones do! They do join in the training when I am with my pro.

I think there are a lot of factors that have to be weighed when you are in this sport, and when you wish to be competitive in this sport. Money obviously is an important one but so is what you feel you gain from the sport. I think anyone is foolish who would do this sport when it presents a financial hardship to that person and/or their family. There are innumerable ways to enjoy your dog without seeking an FC/AFC. I often suggest hunt tests to young persons, especially those with a growing family. Hunting is wonderful if you are in an area where you can do it. There are many dog sports out there that lend themselves to a much less expensive and time demanding lifestyle. Each person has to decide what he or she can live with and what they want from life. 

I asked my dogs, and none of them knew if they had a title or not. In fact, a couple wondered what the heck I was talking about and would I leave them alone and let them finish watching the football game. One was critiquing the quarterback when I was leaving the family room, and another thought the wide receiver spent too much time admiring himself in the mirror and not enough time studying the playbook.

Glenda


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

K G said:


> Rick, this was contained in your original post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I appreciate that KG and agree that I got several very good responses that answered my questions and I thank everyone for their candor.

It just seemed that you and a couple others sounded offended that I would even ask the question in the first place cuz you/they thought I was only looking at the almighty dollar rather than the intangibles you get back from these great dogs.

If I miss-took the intent of those posts, again, I appologize.

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

2-Dogs said:


> People with even more money and less sense might want to buy and run a thoroughbred horse.
> 
> Mark


There was a guy in our area that tried horses, lost his shirt had to sell his business and his FC-AFC to hep cover the loses.


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Cost. Big time is time. When I trained and ran three dogs, 3-5 hours a day, split between morning, noon and night sessions.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Earl, you are right on the mark.
> 
> As far as washouts and selling or finding a different home for the dog.
> My first "washout" not gonna be a QAA or better prospect. Was a tough decision to "let go"
> ...



I have had two dogs that were not for sale my first all-age Golden who had his win but lacked points (I can still feel the pain) and my first FC/AFC , was offered $50K plus and figure there were two fools with that one, fool that turned it down and the fool who made the offer!! Only kidding. Admittedly have sold my share since and at least four went on to thier FC/AFC titles. You can't keep them all and for awhile we were very lucky!! There were a few that were "washed" as big dogs but did well in the hunt test game. Bottom line here is what one very sucessful amateur trainer of National caliber (dogs and Judge) told me, "if the money will not make a significant difference in your lifestyle! don't sell it. Here is what I learned myself "if you aren't willing to sell the BEST dog you ever owned, then don't get in the dog selling market" ! AND another, don't Collect dogs!! It will do you no service and it is unfair to the dogs . 

The above are things learned from a habit that started as a l9 or 20 year old and it took a lot of failures and over four decades to finaly "GET IT. It took the first two decades of stumbling around and the second two decades of getting it. There are others that are probably smarter them me and will get it quicker. Happy New Year!!


----------



## Josh Conrad (Jul 3, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Don't forget all the cool toys you'll need. Since your bound to end up with multiple dogs to deal with the wash outs and improve your chances, you'll need a new truck 50k, a new dog box 20k, training equipment 10k, a full line of clothing 5k, therapy sessions 1k per month, and the divorce god only knows....
> 
> /Paul


Paul, you forgot the booze bill$$$$.

As someone pretty new to this sport, I don't/can't even think or talk about how much it is/will cost me.

I'm just having fun.


----------



## ducksoup (Oct 3, 2005)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> PRICELESS........All I know is that I would cut off vital parts of my anatomy to have a dog become a FC. Money ? Money ? If that's all it took was money, I would have bought a couple of wins by now.
> 
> 1st The right dog.
> 2nd The right trainer for THAT dog.
> ...


Just like the VISA ad says "PRICELESS" but something many of us here strive for -- here's hoping for more blue ribbons in 2008


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

ACEBLDRS said:


> Paul, you forgot the booze bill$$$$.
> 
> As someone pretty new to this sport, I don't/can't even think or talk about how much it is/will cost me.
> 
> I'm just having fun.



Josh, thinking about the booze bill drove me to drink......nasty cycle.....

/Paul


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Josh, thinking about the booze bill drove me to drink......nasty cycle.....
> 
> /Paul


Ya right. Fess up you had it delivered, no need to drive.

Sure I'm driving- way too drunk to walk regards

Bubba


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Ya right. Fess up you had it delivered, no need to drive.
> 
> Sure I'm driving- way too drunk to walk regards
> 
> Bubba


Actually GT drove me which worked out well. You have to be drunk to ride with her.

/Paul


----------



## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

Glenda Brown said:


> Hey, Laura, I never got a medal from AKC. Do you think they discriminated against me because I have Goldens????
> 
> I started out with Tom Quinn's book in my hand---there were no Lardy tapes, etc. at that point----makes me really, really old, I know.


Maybe they didn't give medals way back then?

I can see you giving me the kiss, pat, pat now!


----------



## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Hi Laura:

Not only the "kiss, pat, pat" but a few others I have learned hanging around with the field trial crowd!!!

How could you do that to a sweet, old lady??? Payback will come.

Glenda


----------



## scribdog (Dec 10, 2005)

Glenda, I recieved a medal when Token got his OTCH in 92. I was embarrassed, I didn't PLAN on being a breeder. I just made the mistake of bringing a bitch into my maledom! 

No one should go into hardship. I don't have FC dreams, I go for short term goals and strive for more. But there are ways around this delemma. I found myself unable to support my training instructor fees. I asked if I could do the 'obedeience' on the dogs coming in to be trained. I then took on the basics. This has given me the training grounds, the instruction, and the amazing thrill of working more than my dogs, hence, learning more than could be put a price on.

It has cost me a great deal of time. I am unable to clean my home, take on any more obedience classes, hard pressed to get my dogs obedience trialing trained, loss of friends, and I think I have lucked out!
Pat


----------



## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

I don't mean to hijack this thread, and it might be a nice topic for another day, but, I bet the cost of titles for FC/AFC-Texas WB Cocky Two Stepper (along with a few others) was quite small. I believe he was FC by the age of 2; and amateur trained.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

The cost for the FC on my 2 1/2 year old were pennies compared to most FC's. And it was still a small "kings ransome"....

Angie


----------



## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Yeah, but Angie-compared to horses we are still on the small scale. Given all the money in the world, I would go back to riding in a heartbeat.
In horses, you can't ask the cost. We bought a 10,000 dollar horse and lost him 18 months later to colic. Want to add up 600 a month training bills, saddles at 1000.00, entry fees, new bridles, transportation, vet bills, and that it what I remember as it was almost 20 years ago. Lord, looking back....
But I loved it, and it made dog politics look like small potatoes. At least the judges have to watch the dog, and not start conversations while watching the horse.
Course the flip side was watching the judge JUMP out of the way when my horse decided to run over him-kinda makes ignoring a whistle kinda funny. 
And there is a bond with horses, they let you guide them.Trust me, it is hard to get a horse that does not want to do something to do it. And it is hard to a make a pasture pet out of a 27,000 dollar horse because they won't load on a trailer due to a bad experience. Or landing on your rear end or getting the heck kicked out of you by a colt.
Horses taught me more about good and bad training more than anything else.
Oh well, I digressed. But it was fun.
To go back to the original thought, this sport is one like all others, a balance. I am the black sheep of my obedience friend's world, as I train as needed. They train every day or feel guilty.But I train with purpose. I work 2 or three jobs to be able to do what I want to, and have a great group of both dog and non-dog friends who support me, even if they don't know what the heck I am talking about. They listen to me, loaned me cars when my old one was broken, even offered me money for a vet bill. Sympathize with me when I lose an animal, and remind me gently when it is time to move on..
I love it, love the people I have met and know, get a little frustrated at the pettiness, but enjoy the wonder of the "oh my God I get it" look.
So, the cost is, and should be, the least of it. It only is an issue when it is out of balance in relation to what is important in your life.


----------



## Teri (Jun 25, 2003)

Yes, horses still make the dogs look cheap. I showed hunters & jumpers from ponies through A/O Jumpers but was a working student through college. We had a lot of very, very wealthy clients...I, however was not one of them.

One of my dear friends who still rides will be at the shows in CA in Thermal ( Indio) for 6 weeks of shows in Feb. Her fee for 7 stalls ( 4 horses plus tack & grooming stalls) is $21,000! Just to have a place to put her horses while showing...and that doesnt even come with shavings. I figured her bill for braiding her 4 horses for the 6 weeks will be over $16000. Admittedly these are some of the more expensive shows in the country, but the winter circuit with will easily be over $125,000 and she brings her own groom so only pays her trainer for actual schooling & showing.

I always laugh that when I met her in the early 1980's, I wanted her life....now 25 yrs later...I still want her life <g> 

Yes, if I ever won the lottery my first phone call would be to Peter Pletcher to find a mega-fancy Hunter! I sure do miss it. 

Teri Jakob


----------



## Barb/x2crr (Oct 18, 2005)

Glenda,

I have a young Levi daughter coming up that I raised. I will be more than happy to share MY metal with you if I get one. You deserve it. I have never seen you run a dog I didn't like to watch. Besides, I would do almost anything to have another FC and all the good times I had with Levi.


----------



## jburn34 (May 12, 2006)

Teri said:


> Yes, horses still make the dogs look cheap.


Horses are more work too.


----------



## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

ACEBLDRS said:


> Paul, you forgot the booze bill$$$$. As someone pretty new to this sport, I don't/can't even think or talk about how much it is/will cost me. I'm just having fun.


Yep. It's fun to have an addiction. Never mind the high fallutin' language about this being our passion, our commitment, our mastery, our elegance.

It's our addiction, and I LOVE IT.:razz:


----------

