# Mike Stewart and the Wildrose way



## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

I was just wondering if anyone is familar with this program, and if you are what are your opion's on it. I've recently watched his dvd, and its doesn't go into the detail that I guess Smartwork or Total retriever would, but personally I think its a good hunting dog program to follow.


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

It's not gonna take a dog to a field trial champion but I like the program. I have followed it with satisfactory results. I personally like the attention to the 3D's Deny Delay and Diversion. It has a lot of good common sense information. Now if you want a dog to take angle backs, not cheat the bank advanced handling, etc etc pick another program. For the average guy that wants an steady gun dog it's a good start, however it is not with out holes and you will need to get help on a few things as you progress through the training but there are lots of folks willing to help. Good Luck.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgDayEttoLg

The above link might be usefull in answering your question.

john


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## Kyle Farris (Jun 21, 2011)

In your opionon what is a good dvd program to start with, the reason I ask is I'm getting a new puppy at the end of the year and I would like to atart things off on a good note.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

What kind of puppy? Whats the breeding? I like Rick Stawski's Fowl Dawgs for a novice trainer.

Good luck and enjoy.


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## Geiss (May 5, 2010)

Sound Beginnings is one of the more highly recommended ones, but Bill Hillman's DVD is starting to get some backing here too. I'll be buying Hillman to check it out before the next pup.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Pas Bon said:


> I personally like the attention to the 3D's Deny Delay and Diversion.


Any chance you could summarize the three Ds for us? I'm wondering if Deny and Delay are a couple of techniques that I use to good effect--setting things up so that the dog must control himself in order to make things move forward. If so (or if not), what's Diversion (a word that already has varied meanings in the retriever world)?

Amy Dahl


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## Kyle Farris (Jun 21, 2011)

The breed is going to be a lab puppy and the breeding I'm not sure yet.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Geiss said:


> Sound Beginnings is one of the more highly recommended ones, but Bill Hillman's DVD is starting to get some backing here too. I'll be buying Hillman to check it out before the next pup.


Really like the results so far of my "Hillman trained puppy" The dvd will go a long ways to having a very steady dog from the start.


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

afdahl said:


> Any chance you could summarize the three Ds for us? I'm wondering if Deny and Delay are a couple of techniques that I use to good effect--setting things up so that the dog must control himself in order to make things move forward. If so (or if not), what's Diversion (a word that already has varied meanings in the retriever world)?
> 
> Amy Dahl


Yes Deny and Delay are used for good effect. Deny is used to teach the dog that not every thing that hits the ground, is thrown or shot out of the air is for him to retrieve. (steadiness) Delay is used to teach the dog that even though it hits the ground, is thrown or shot out of the air is he NOT to *immediately *go get it rather only when commanded (steadiness) Diversion, things hitting the ground, being thrown or being shot out of the air while either going out or returning from a retrieve. Also includes live birds flopping around on the ground, other dogs going out or returning from retrieves etc etc.

That's my novice definition. The first dog I trained almost 11 years ago was and still is a hell of a huntin' dog but not very steady. I really focused on that with my current dog and I found Stewart's methods very effective.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Thanks for the explanation. Not what I had in mind, but I can see the application to building steadiness in a gun dog.

Amy Dahl


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

afdahl said:


> Any chance you could summarize the three Ds for us? I'm wondering if Deny and Delay are a couple of techniques that I use to good effect--setting things up so that the dog must control himself in order to make things move forward. If so (or if not), what's Diversion (a word that already has varied meanings in the retriever world)?
> 
> Amy Dahl


The way I understood it in his vid, I've watched it 3 times, in the last week still don't totally get it. And to me deny is denying the dog the retrieve to make the dog understand steadiness, and that not every bird is his, and he's also big on making dogs earn there retrieves through being steady and quit, basically having good line manners.

I think it starts with a good puppy program with the "early ons" that he wants the dog to have. I also like that he starts memories and casting early on in training. I also like the 3 D's to make the dog understand steadiness, and I like how he use the whistle early on also. I believe that if you are looking to build a good solid hunting dog (which is my goal) its a good program.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

I have the Wildrose DVD. 

There is a lot of good stuff in it, particularly the basic steadiness philosophy and handling routines. It's very sketchy on puppy work, socialisation and basic OB tasks, you really need to have that stuff in place before following the program. If you did and then worked the dog according to the demonstrated drills, I think you'd have a pretty nice gun dog. 

In addition to what is shown I'd need to add better lining on multiple blinds / marks, and advanced casting particularly at distance. At $30 ish it's a good buy, well worth the money. 

I also have the Strawski material. 'Nuff said.

Eug


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I have the dvd. There is not enough information in the dvd to take a retriever from puppyhood to a finished dog. I think the dvd is around 45 minutes to an hour (its been several years since I viewed it).

And the "early ons" get on my nerves. "Early on, I want a retriever to do whatever", etc...

Well we all do, so put out a complete program that goes step by step.

Also, I can't say there has never been a dog trained by these methods that didn't turn out as a great dog, either gun dog or competitor. What I can say is that I have seen several that were not so great.


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## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

To the OP please use the search feature at the top of the page. Enter Wildrose and enjoy the pages and pages of debate. Please can't we let this dead horribly decomposing horse just lie in peace. 

Dave


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Colonel Blimp,

What are some good dvd's from your side of the pond? I have one by Edward Martin and one by Stan Harvey but was wondering if there was any you guys like better than those.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

captainjack said:


> I have the dvd. There is not enough information in the dvd to take a retriever from puppyhood to a finished dog. I think the dvd is around 45 minutes to an hour (its been several years since I viewed it).
> 
> And the "early ons" get on my nerves. "Early on, I want a retriever to do whatever", etc...
> 
> ...


Its actually close to 3hrs. I agree that a first time trainer might have some problems figuring out the sequence of things.

I like the use of memories from early on, I like marking off of the gun, the steadiness drills, and I think his"hold" program is as thorough as any Ive seen outside of a FF program.

Overall, a really good buy and program for a top notch hunting dog.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

2labs said:


> To the OP please use the search feature at the top of the page. Enter Wildrose and enjoy the pages and pages of debate. Please can't we let this dead horribly decomposing horse just lie in peace.
> 
> Dave


All RTF would be is a search function if we followed that logic. Its all been discussed. Its a valid question from someone interested in learning and so far ths responses have been helpful.


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## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

However, he is a new poster and not one of the responses directed him to the search function where he could read and read and read until he finds his answer. True the responses have been cordial, however when this reaches 8 pages of the same american vice british vice FF vice CC then you too might grow tired. 

Dave


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

2labs said:


> however when this reaches 8 pages of the same american vice british vice FF vice CC then you too might grow tired.
> 
> Dave


Maybe it won't. Maybe the question is a bit different than some of the other threads, asking about particular content of the dvd and its applicability rather than personality, "better than," etc., etc.

Amy Dahl


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

2labs said:


> However, he is a new poster and not one of the responses directed him to the search function where he could read and read and read until he finds his answer. True the responses have been cordial, however when this reaches 8 pages of the same american vice british vice FF vice CC then you too might grow tired.
> 
> Dave


If you don't want to read the thread or don't have anything helpful to add then don't open it.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Colonel Blimp said:


> I have the Wildrose DVD.
> 
> There is a lot of good stuff in it, particularly the basic steadiness philosophy and handling routines. It's very sketchy on puppy work, socialisation and basic OB tasks, you really need to have that stuff in place before following the program.
> 
> Eug


I've used it as well Colonel, and found it to be a good program to build a well rounded Gundog.. I've got nuthin' but respect for Mike Stewart.

I do have to chuckle though, as he does repeat himself a bit, "The Wildrose Way" , but certainly found myself able to get past the "marketing" part of it, and absorb the things of more importance that he had to offer, and it met my goals in a Gundawg at the time.. 


I also agree with the puppy insight/material in it, it was very vague, but as far as the rest of the program, I felt it was fairly comprehensive..and for a Non-force Program, it was good for me at the time..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

To OP I was given a copied (burned) one, watched it once and honestly didn't find anything that was of value, if your looking for a competitive FT or upper level HT dog, gun dog or maybe a JH dog but beyond that NO WAY, to many holes and not enough tools to fill them. Went in the trash..

I have no idea what your goals are but if your going to go through the time and effort you might as well go with a proven, program that covers all the bases, I also recommend the Hillman puppy program , followed by Stawski's series, if you have competent well bred puppy and you follow these two programs, you'll have a nice dog in the end....


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Dang didn't realize I would start a war. All I'm ever interested in in my dogs and training is to make well rounded solid hunting dog (more specifically duck hunting). I knew this vid wasn't to the level that a smartwork, or total retriever. But by the same token I'm not neccesarly looking for the level dogs those programs can produce. The biggest appeal for me about the wildrose way is the lack of e-collars (I currently don't have one that is mine just a loner) and in looking to start another pup thought this would be a good program to follow.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> I new this vid wasn't to the level that a smartwork, or total retriever. But by the same token I'm not neccesarly looking for the level dogs those programs can produce



I have heard this befor and have never quiet understood it, why short change the dog or yourself. It takes the same amount of time every day to follow a proven program as it does to follow a ......................program


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

hfsDogs said:


> Dang didn't realize I would start a war. All I'm ever interested in in my dogs and training is to make well rounded solid hunting dog (more specifically duck hunting). I knew this vid wasn't to the level that a smartwork, or total retriever. But by the same token I'm not neccesarly looking for the level dogs those programs can produce. The biggest appeal for me about the wildrose way is the lack of e-collars (I currently don't have one that is mine just a loner) and in looking to start another pup thought this would be a good program to follow.


Most likely you won't be able to tell what program was followed in the field. A Smartwork dog won't perform any better than a WR dog in a hunting environment(Ive hunted over several of both). In FT/HT there will be a difference but not in hunting.

If you don't want to use an ecollar then The WR Way, Milners Back to Basics and his video The Excellent Gundog are good places to start.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I can see where the Wildrose DVD falls short for those seeking a step by step, 1-2-2 program to follow without having to otherwise fill in any blanks, but I found it included a number of good young dog introductory tactics. Thought it money well spent even after years of starting dogs by other means.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> Most likely you won't be able to tell what program was followed in the field.


Not trying to cause a debate but I beg to differ, mostly on the blind work, say your field hunting you have a 350 yard sailer that lands out in the stubble dog never sees it fall, are you going to be able to handle that WR program dog past the dead birds laying in the spread to that cripple 350 yards away, befor he walks?? Not using the program I watched..


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## Uklabman (Feb 28, 2011)

As my handle implies I own a Brit Lab & it was from Wildrose 12 yrs. ago, purchased as a 9 mo started dog. I finished her based on the Brit methods and she was a reliable retriever, had most of the skills a gundog should posess & my friends all felt she was a pleasure to be around. She had some cheating issues & her lining was not perfect but she handled well & her manners were impeccable along with being a super house dog.

That being said, my new dog, also a Brit, has been trained with the collar, FF, water force & currently at a trainer going through swim-bye. I can tell you that she has all the qualities of my old gal, BUT does everyting faster, more direct & loves every minute of it. Can you get your dog to be a competent hunter the Brit way? Absolutely. Will my new dog be a more efficient retriever than my old one? YES she will.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Uklabman said:


> As my handle implies I own a Brit Lab & it was from Wildrose 12 yrs. ago, purchased as a 9 mo started dog. I finished her based on the Brit methods and she was a reliable retriever, had most of the skills a gundog should posess & my friends all felt she was a pleasure to be around. She had some cheating issues & her lining was not perfect but she handled well & her manners were impeccable along with being a super house dog.
> 
> That being said, my new dog, also a Brit, has been trained with the collar, FF, water force & currently at a trainer going through swim-bye. I can tell you that she has all the qualities of my old gal, BUT does everyting faster, more direct & loves every minute of it. Can you get your dog to be a competent hunter the Brit way? Absolutely. Will my new dog be a more efficient retriever than my old one? YES she will.



Perfectly said.....................


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## SloppyMouth (Mar 25, 2005)

Todd Caswell said:


> are you going to be able to handle that WR program dog past the dead birds laying in the spread to that cripple 350 yards away, befor he walks??


Probably as good as any other program. If implemented correctly, and that's what it all comes down to otherwise there would be no threads or discussions on sites like RTF; anyone can misunderstand or wrongly apply and follow any information in any other program and run into trouble too. Hence people searching for answers and help on force fetch, stick fetch, FTP, hold, head swinging, breaking, vocalization, switching, etc, etc, etc.

Stewart stresses, via the "three D's," that very control of not picking up a short dead bird and being able to line/handle the dog past the short bird...in fact, the dog comes to expect not to pick up that short bird(s), if repeated often enough, and to go for the long cripple, which doesn't exclude them picking up the short one at another time. It's one of the best things I've found in his training. I have however used other methods and programs to fill the holes that I misunderstood or wrongly applied. 

His circle memory drill is something else I really enjoy as it can be used to build confidence and memory, work on handling, factors, suction, terrain and lining ... even past a known down bird.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

I want my dog to go after the bird I send it for......end of story! I don't care if it's short, long, or somewhere in the middle. I also don't care who's program it is unless it gets the results I expect.

I like to play the "games" and the "results" are a bonus for me.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> Not trying to cause a debate but I beg to differ, mostly on the blind work, say your field hunting you have a 350 yard sailer that lands out in the stubble dog never sees it fall, are you going to be able to handle that WR program dog past the dead birds laying in the spread to that cripple 350 yards away, befor he walks?? Not using the program I watched..


Todd, you make a good, (and valid) point, (except for ther burning stuff).

I have Lardy that I'm using now, and..Respectfully,.. I can say that after killing thousands of Ducks and Geese in my life in over 30+ yrs. at it, there's been very few sailers that weren't recovered by a seasoned Gundog who was trained well enough to be no-ed off of those birds close and handled BACK, and OVER, much less many 350yd. sailers to begin with, out of _any_ of my Duckblinds..

Truthfully, I think the same cripple has the same opportunity to walk, by the time you handle _any_ dog 350yds. across certain terrain, lets be fair..

Don't get me wrong..I get what you're saying..You _have_ to get the dog out there, and there's not much in WR that I can remember that'll get ya' there..

I think lot of times if you _hit_ and _kill_ what you're shootin' at when he's 40-50yds. away, one wouldn't be "scaring" Ducks 350yds. away and hosing up 15-20 minutes of huntin' time spent handling the dog..:razz:

regards-
Swamp


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

did anyone else watch the British Open golf today and think Royal St George would be a great place to throw land marks...you could even retire the gunners in the big pot bunkers, and with the howling wind, gorse and heather it would be ideal to throw a wide open triple


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> ..... if your looking for a competitive FT or upper level HT dog, gun dog or maybe a JH dog but beyond that NO WAY, to many holes and not enough tools to fill them. ..



Buddy of mine trained a Wildrose dog using Wildrose's methods to HRCH UH (500 pt) MH and qualified for the MN going 6 for 6.... jus saying. 

Dog hunts at least 30 days in the duck season and hunts chickens from Oct to April.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> Not trying to cause a debate but I beg to differ, mostly on the blind work, say your field hunting you have a 350 yard sailer that lands out in the stubble dog never sees it fall, are you going to be able to handle that WR program dog past the dead birds laying in the spread to that cripple 350 yards away, befor he walks?? Not using the program I watched..


Todd, 

I've been hunting since I was 6 years old in rice fields in Stuttgart. I have never seen a 350yd sailor from a duck and I can only remember one or two geese. My boykin made a 297yd(measured by range finder) retrieve on a cripple that was from another field from another group of hunters. It was a bet and it took a few whistles but it would have been much more reasonable to use my 4 wheeler. 

Training for those distances is for FTs not hunting. And yes you could use The WR Way to train for those distances but the video rightly doesn't address it.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> Training for those distances is for FTs not hunting. And yes you could use The WR Way to train for those distances but the video rightly doesn't address it.


Never field hunted in Sask. or manitoba have ya? And I have no doubt that you might be able to get a WR student out 350 yards but can you Imagine how many OVERS you would have to give after the initial 75 yards?????? 


Like I said befor I'm sure you can train a huntin dog with the program, you can even train a compitent meat dog with no program and lots of exposure ( I know I have one that is 11) but, what I'm trying to say is if your going to spend the time and energy

*There are far better programs out there*


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> Never field hunted in Sask. or manitoba have ya? And I have no doubt that you might be able to get a WR student out 350 yards but can you Imagine how many OVERS you would have to give after the initial 75 yards??????
> 
> 
> Like I said befor I'm sure you can train a huntin dog with the program, you can even train a compitent meat dog with no program and lots of exposure ( I know I have one that is 11) but, what I'm trying to say is if your going to spend the time and energy
> ...


No I haven't but why would it be different than a field in America? I believe ducks frequently sail 150yds but not 350. Anywhere on this earth!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

boykinhntr said:


> No I haven't but why would it be different than a field in America? I believe ducks frequently sail 150yds but not 350. Anywhere on this earth!



Alot more wide open, complete sections of cut grain, and I was more less refering to geese.


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Okay 1st if the duck sail 350 and is not recovered I'm not really blaming my dog, just saying I could've probaly done my part better. I also understand that things happen, also where I hunt mostly 350 water blinds is somthing i'm not sure I would send even the best FT dog on. I'm pretty sure my dog would have a hand signal for me. And in some other places I hunt I would never see that one fall. Its hard to see 350 in flooded woods.

Also I'm currently as I type this watching the wildrose DVD again and honestly I don't see why on earth a person with anykind of training abilaty couldn't make a pretty stinking good HT dog, and with the emphaise he puts on obedence and lining (always start running the dog down the fence that you could get a dog to go past short dead birds to long criples, I also jsut watch him do memory work and saw him throw 2 and make the dog pick up in order thrown, so I feel confident that you can no a dog off and send it on the one you want with this methode. And with the emphasise he puts on lining and if its sound when you transition to the water cheating shouldn't be an issue, agian early training sucesse is key, if a dog doesn't know it can cheat a bank it will never do it.


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## Lorne MacDonald (Apr 15, 2004)

Todd

I've hunted a few of them over the years (more years than I want to admit  ) , and , in all honesty we just don't see that many of those long sailers . We kill a fair # of birds and our journals back that up. We also see very few true blinds (this is consistent with my buddies that guide as well) , plus IF and when they do get out there the guy giving the direction has about a 50/50 chance of actually knowing where the bird landed ....assuming that its dead when it hits.

Someone , maybe Jake Smith, had an article in RJ a number of years ago where he and his brother recorded their retrieves for a year - pot hole hunting, boat hunting, field shooting in Sask., decoying, maybe some rice field shooting (not sure on this one) and well under 10% of totals for the year were over 75 or 80 yards. Very few blinds. Our experience is similar.

Not making a judgement on the type/systems being discussed - just relating our experience . Obviously its impressive to see a dog do that type of work. Up here it really doesn't happen that much, in my experience.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

hfsDogs said:


> Okay 1st if the duck sail 350 and is not recovered I'm not really blaming my dog, just saying I could've probaly done my part better. I also understand that things happen, also where I hunt mostly 350 water blinds is somthing i'm not sure I would send even the best FT dog on. I'm pretty sure my dog would have a hand signal for me. And in some other places I hunt I would never see that one fall. Its hard to see 350 in flooded woods.
> 
> Also I'm currently as I type this watching the wildrose DVD again and honestly I don't see why on earth a person with anykind of training abilaty couldn't make a pretty stinking good HT dog, and with the emphaise he puts on obedence and lining (always start running the dog down the fence that you could get a dog to go past short dead birds to long criples, I also jsut watch him do memory work and saw him throw 2 and make the dog pick up in order thrown, so I feel confident that you can no a dog off and send it on the one you want with this methode. And with the emphasise he puts on lining and if its sound when you transition to the water cheating shouldn't be an issue, agian early training sucesse is key, if a dog doesn't know it can cheat a bank it will never do it.


Hey more power to yah, if you think his program is the real deal then go for it, teaching a dog to run blinds by running him down a fence sounds legit to me. Wonder now why I'm wasting my time doing stick fetch, stick to the pile, walking fetch, 3 bumper walking fetch, force to the pile, mini t, double t, swim by, pattern blinds, when all I needed was a fence to work with.. And when i get to cheating singles if i never put the dog in the position to cheat I should never have a problem, but if I do with all the emphsis on lining by using the "fence" I should have no problem handling him back in the water if he does cheat. 

Really wished I'de paid closer attention and not tossed it in the trash..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Lorne MacDonald said:


> Todd
> 
> I've hunted a few of them over the years (more years than I want to admit  ) , and , in all honesty we just don't see that many of those long sailers . We kill a fair # of birds and our journals back that up. We also see very few true blinds (this is consistent with my buddies that guide as well) , plus IF and when they do get out there the guy giving the direction has about a 50/50 chance of actually knowing where the bird landed ....assuming that its dead when it hits.
> 
> ...


Nope doesn't happen very often but it sure is fun to have a dog that can do it, lots more fun watching a gifted animal than some yahoo on a 4 wheeler chasing down winged goose.


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Todd i'm not trying to sell you on a methode you obviously don't believe in. I simply asked for opions on the methode you gave yours and I thank you for that, who knows one day down the road I may even think he told me so....

But before I let this thread, and possiably this board go quietly into the night, I will say this. If you start a pup early on and teach it the right way it will learn it better and never know there is any other way to do it, thus being no need for force, so in the terms of cheating, is cheating or is it not an issue of a dog will not hold a true line? I believe it is, so if a dog is taught that the only way to get to something is to run a straight line (which is what running down the fence teaches) and if you get it solid on land it should and will translate to water and cheating should never be an issue. And if you have a dog that will retrieve early one, if you throw the mark let him run to it, bring it back and scoop him in your arms all the while he still holding the bumper, and let him hold it till you tell him to drop it you've effectivly taught fetch with out force. And if you have any kind of retrieveing dog with any kind of pedigree it should have enough retrieveing instinc that simply making the retrieve is enough insentive tou go hense agian force should never be needed.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

hfsDogs said:


> Todd i'm not trying to sell you on a methode you obviously don't believe in. I simply asked for opions on the methode you gave yours and I thank you for that, who knows one day down the road I may even think he told me so....
> 
> But before I let this thread, and possiably this board go quietly into the night, I will say this. If you start a pup early on and teach it the right way it will learn it better and never know there is any other way to do it, thus being no need for force, so in the terms of cheating, is cheating or is it not an issue of a dog will not hold a true line? I believe it is, so if a dog is taught that the only way to get to something is to run a straight line (which is what running down the fence teaches) and if you get it solid on land it should and will translate to water and cheating should never be an issue. And if you have a dog that will retrieve early one, if you throw the mark let him run to it, bring it back and scoop him in your arms all the while he still holding the bumper, and let him hold it till you tell him to drop it you've effectivly taught fetch with out force. And if you have any kind of retrieveing dog with any kind of pedigree it should have enough retrieveing instinc that simply making the retrieve is enough insentive tou go hense agian force should never be needed.


Geez hfsDogs, have you ever trained an advanced retriever? From what you say I'd say you haven't come close. 

We all strive to instill good habits from the get go. I'll guarantee that you will not get a dog who makes the right decisions about factors by running down a fence, and we all happy up our puppies for bringing back bumpers.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

boykinhntr said:


> Most likely you won't be able to tell what program was followed in the field. A Smartwork dog won't perform any better than a WR dog in a hunting environment(Ive hunted over several of both). In FT/HT there will be a difference but not in hunting.
> 
> If you don't want to use an ecollar then The WR Way, Milners Back to Basics and his video The Excellent Gundog are good places to start.


You clearly haven't hunted with upper level dogs in really tough open water. if I did nothing but upland flushing dogs everything we discussed today would be different

/Paul


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

hfsDogs said:


> Todd i'm not trying to sell you on a methode you obviously don't believe in. I simply asked for opions on the methode you gave yours and I thank you for that, who knows one day down the road I may even think he told me so....
> 
> But before I let this thread, and possiably this board go quietly into the night, I will say this. If you start a pup early on and teach it the right way it will learn it better and never know there is any other way to do it, thus being no need for force, so in the terms of cheating, is cheating or is it not an issue of a dog will not hold a true line? I believe it is, so if a dog is taught that the only way to get to something is to run a straight line (which is what running down the fence teaches) and if you get it solid on land it should and will translate to water and cheating should never be an issue. And if you have a dog that will retrieve early one, if you throw the mark let him run to it, bring it back and scoop him in your arms all the while he still holding the bumper, and let him hold it till you tell him to drop it you've effectivly taught fetch with out force. *And if you have any kind of retrieveing dog with any kind of pedigree it should have enough retrieveing instinc that simply making the retrieve is enough insentive tou go hense agian force should never be needed.*




What happens when the dog with the decent pedigree decides that it doesnt want to make the retrieve? How can you get that bird out of the water then?(Other than a fishing pole)


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

hfsDogs said:


> And if you have any kind of retrieveing dog with any kind of pedigree it should have enough retrieveing instinc that simply making the retrieve is enough insentive tou go hense agian force should never be needed.


Hahahaha......


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Just for Todd Caswell (no relation to my shooting mate Simon are ya?)

The season before last I was picking up on a driven pheasant shoot: I saw bird hit in the air that sailed on past me and the three dogs. It wasn't hit hard, it just shivered a bit; no one except me an "Eddie" spotted it. 

There was a neck of woodland about 200 yards behind us and the bird pitched in some way along it. I sent "Eddie" out with the bird still in the air; after about ten minutes he came out of the woodside and delivered to hand. It wouldn't have run much, one leg had a pellet in the knee. The spot where he came out of the wood was 420 metres from where it was shot, measured on a large scale Ordnance survey map. 

The only thing unusual about the incident was the chance to actually get a decent estimate of the distance; in my experience a bird dropping dead many hundred of metres from where it's been hit isn't at all rare, so I agree with you that it can and does happen.

Where I do part company is in the assertion that a non FF non collar dog can't be persuaded to go out smartly to 300+ yards; mine do quite often. In the pic below the dogs fetched those birds from off both sides the wooded slope in the background. I haven't measured it, but 350 meters to the far end looks about right off the map.










Just to reiterate; anyone wanting to train a hunting dog without the collar will find the WR DVD a useful and informative aid.

Eug


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

hfsDogs said:


> And if you have a dog that will retrieve early on, if you throw the mark let him run to it, bring it back and scoop him in your arms all the while he still holding the bumper, and let him hold it till you tell him to drop it you've effectivly taught fetch with out force.


Dogs', gotta' say something, and say it as respectfully as I can..I believe at least at one point in time just about everyone on this board "settled for less", and /or tried different methods that simply didn't match personal goals set for themself or their dawg-even it if only lasted 30 seconds..

Know I've made some mistakes, and have trained my own Meatdawg/Gundawgs over the years, and respectfully, I feel compelled to tell you that what you're describing here is a LOT of Sunshine and Butterflys..

Lots of ways to train dogs, but what you're subscribing to "teaches" FETCH maybe _for the moment_.. but really not effectively for the dogs entire retrieving life..

Respectfully,
Swamp


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> You clearly haven't hunted with upper level dogs in really tough open water. if I did nothing but upland flushing dogs everything we discussed today would be different
> 
> /Paul


Paul,
I'm not going to argue about this but your assumptions have all been way off. In fact I hunt with a HRCH trained by Derek Randal, another one trained by Chris Akin, and one, occasionally, by Mike Stewart......absolutely no difference in the field. No difference. I have also hunted over 3 GRHRCH and several FT dogs but I don't know accomplishments. 

The thing about dog training is that YOU decide what you want your dog to do. If someone wants their dog to run backwards on his front legs then that's what they should train for. I train my dogs to do the things that I need. To practice running 350yd blinds is simply a waste of time for me. That is a scenario that doesn't happen. But a lot of ppl are happy with the results of the program. Nobody would argue that its an advanced program. Its doesn't accomplish what YOU want and that's ok. That doesn't mean its a bad program. If you are ever in Arkansas shoot me a PM. And we will go blast some birds, Ive got plenty, and I bet you enjoy the dog work!

Now I'm heading out to chase some pigeons


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

That statement is totally false.



boykinhntr said:


> Most likely you won't be able to tell what program was followed in the field. A Smartwork dog won't perform any better than a WR dog in a hunting environment(Ive hunted over several of both). In FT/HT there will be a difference but not in hunting.
> 
> If you don't want to use an ecollar then The WR Way, Milners Back to Basics and his video The Excellent Gundog are good places to start.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

claimsadj said:


> That statement is totally false.


In your opinion which is no more relevant than mine. I have experience with both and that's been my observation..as well as others.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

To get the conversation back on track. WR Way does not have a an easy to understand sequence like SW but it is fairly comprehensive and one if the better non FF/ecollar videos IMO.


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## Jake McNeese (Sep 26, 2007)

hfsDogs said:


> so if a dog is taught that the only way to get to something is to run a straight line (which is what running down the fence teaches) and if you get it solid on land it should and will translate to water and cheating should never be an issue.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

boykinhntr said:


> I've been hunting since I was 6 years old in rice fields in Stuttgart. I have never seen a 350yd sailor from a duck and I can only remember one or two geese.


Wow, you and your buddies must be really great shots. I usually go to Arkansas just once per season since 1996. I've probably only hunted there a total of 46 days. I would guess maybe 38 of those days have been on flooded fields and I've seen birds go down (mostly geese, but does it matter?) at that kind of distance many times, probably 10 or more times I would guess. Sometimes they were cripples but others the bird flew out to that type of distance and suddenly dropped stone dead.



boykinhntr said:


> Most likely you won't be able to tell what program was followed in the field. A Smartwork dog won't perform any better than a WR dog in a hunting environment(Ive hunted over several of both).


I'm not questioning what you've seen, but from what I've seen, dogs trained the WR "way" stick out like a sore thumb and not in a good way. The typical scenario I've seen is pre-hunt (or test or training session) the handler is bragging on his WR trained dog to everyone who will listen and then becomes completely frustrated by his dog's lack of performance once the action starts. That is what I've seen...over and over.



hfsDogs said:


> Okay 1st if the duck sail 350 and is not recovered I'm not really blaming my dog, just saying I could've probaly done my part better. I also understand that things happen, also where I hunt mostly 350 water blinds is somthing i'm not sure I would send even the best FT dog on. I'm pretty sure my dog would have a hand signal for me. And in some other places I hunt I would never see that one fall. Its hard to see 350 in flooded woods.
> 
> Also I'm currently as I type this watching the wildrose DVD again and honestly I don't see why on earth a person with anykind of training abilaty couldn't make a pretty stinking good HT dog, and with the emphaise he puts on obedence and lining (always start running the dog down the fence that you could get a dog to go past short dead birds to long criples, I also jsut watch him do memory work and saw him throw 2 and make the dog pick up in order thrown, so I feel confident that you can no a dog off and send it on the one you want with this methode. And with the emphasise he puts on lining and if its sound when you transition to the water cheating shouldn't be an issue, agian early training sucesse is key, if a dog doesn't know it can cheat a bank it will never do it.


Welcome to the RTF. With all due respect, you started this thread asking for opinions on this particular training material. Compared to discussions in the past you've received some very gentle criticism of the training method in question. Now it seems you are trying to convince us that we are wrong although you've yet to try it...and it does seem that you are trying to rationalize that you don't need a dog who will do this or that...as another poster has said, I think you are settling to say the least.

One other factor to consider (I could go on and on) is that if you train your dog using that method and then you run into trouble and you want help, it is going to be difficult to find without virtually starting over. Most of the people in the local retriever club who could offer a helping hand will be speaking a virtually different language and their (good) advice will not be easily applied to your dog because your dog will not have the foundation required to allow you to put their advice into practice without virtually starting over and rebuilding your dog from the ground up. If, on the other hand, you decide to seek out the help of a good local pro the same will probably apply because the vast majority of successful pros (and amateurs) follow a Carr based program which is contrary to the method you will be using in almost every way.

I've said it as nicely as I know how and I mean no offense, but those who come on here and ask for advice and then convince themselves that they really didn't need our advice always leave me scratching my head.

I've never trained a dog the WR "way" and I never will, but I HAVE trained a dog without an e-collar and another one with an e-collar using Carr based methods and I would not willingly go back to "amish" training (training with no e-collar) and certainly would not try to follow a program that does not offer a step by step methodology (like the flow chart in Total Retriever and Smartworks for example) where each step builds on the last and prepares for the next.

Whatever you decide, good luck to you and your dog.


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

HuntinDawg said:


> Wow, you and your buddies must be really great shots. I usually go to Arkansas just once per season since 1996. I've probably only hunted there a total of 46 days. I would guess maybe 38 of those days have been on flooded fields and I've seen birds go down (mostly geese, but does it matter?) at that kind of distance many times, probably 10 or more times I would guess. Sometimes they were cripples but others the bird flew out to that type of distance and suddenly dropped stone dead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a great point about getting help. Clubs are going to be using a different program for sure. 

I don't have an answer about ducks falling 350yds. It just doesn't happen when I'm around for some reason. Who knows.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

HuntinDawg

Great post !

Our past experiences and current feelings are extremely similar.



.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Howard N said:


> Geez hfsDogs, have you ever trained an advanced retriever? From what you say I'd say you haven't come close.
> 
> We all strive to instill good habits from the get go. I'll guarantee that you will not get a dog who makes the right decisions about factors by running down a fence, and we all happy up our puppies for bringing back bumpers.


x 10.............. Howard you are right on the money. Dogs don't train themselves, WR is big on coaxing and short on actual training. ;-)


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Uklabman said:


> As my handle implies I own a Brit Lab & it was from Wildrose 12 yrs. ago, purchased as a 9 mo started dog. I finished her based on the Brit methods and she was a reliable retriever, had most of the skills a gundog should posess & my friends all felt she was a pleasure to be around. She had some cheating issues & her lining was not perfect but she handled well & her manners were impeccable along with being a super house dog.
> 
> That being said, my new dog, also a Brit, has been trained with the collar, FF, water force & currently at a trainer going through swim-bye. I can tell you that she has all the qualities of my old gal, BUT does everything faster, more direct & loves every minute of it. Can you get your dog to be a competent hunter the Brit way? Absolutely. Will my new dog be a more efficient retriever than my old one? YES she will.


This is my experience as well. Having done it both ways, and retrained my present "brit dog" from "british" training through HRCH/MH, there are some good points to the WR stuff, but its not sequential, and there is more "white" than "black" on the page when the wheels come off. It is weak in handling and lining. It will produce (depending on the trainer's commitment) a basic steady gun dog capable of basic handling. I am much happier with the results of the Lardy/Carr training. It actually combines well with the basic "steady early" philosophy instilled early in my by my British training mentor. Hopefully, I learned enough with this one to do a better job with the next. Luckily, dogs recover well from dumb trainers mistakes!  

Having hunted extensively with both UK-style trained and HT/FT dogs, you most certainly CAN tell a difference in the field. Not that UK style trained dogs are not capable of picking up the chickens, but its pretty obvious which ones have been water forced, de-cheated, etc and which have not and are running laps around the bank. I am glad to share the blind with either, as long as they are well trained and don't try to steal my Vienna sausages.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I bet the WR method would fix /paul's cat problem. Poor guy really has it bad right now!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

boykinhntr said:


> That's a great point about getting help. Clubs are going to be using a different program for sure.


I know about that from experience. When I started training my first dog there was not the abundance of very good to great training material available that there is today. I didn't know anyone who could mentor me or even give me good advice at the time. I started off with Water Dog and then it was a hodge podge after that of whatever I could get my hands on that I thought would suffice to patch whatever hole I was trying to patch in my dog's training. Eventually I used DL Walters materials to improve handling, etc. Later, once I did know some very knowledgeable retriever trainers who were willing to give me advice (like Jerry Day) I wasn't in a position to take advantage of the advice because I had a 6 or 7 year old dog who had never been collar conditioned, had never had a full version of double T, force to pile, swim by, etc. and the only way to do any of that would have been to take a 7 year old dog and take him back to CC and FTP (approximately) and go from there and I was afraid (rightfully or not) that it wouldn't be fair to the dog and would cause more confusion in a dog that age. This was one of the reasons (in addition to believing that conventional Carr based training methods were superior to what I'd been doing) that I resolved that my next dog would be trained with mainstream conventional training methods, not just because they were proven and in my opinion superior, but because I could get advice and help from training partners and pros, etc., that would be relevant to my dog and his training background. I'm very glad that I did because when I eventually ran out of time to train my dog due to family changes (read - baby and another on the way), in transition (after 2T, swim by, pattern blinds, etc.) my dog was able to go to a pro with no need to "relearn" anything or go back before he could go forward and he never missed a beat.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

boykinhntr said:


> I don't have an answer about ducks falling 350yds. It just doesn't happen when I'm around for some reason. Who knows.


After you shoot and some number of birds fall close, do you watch the flock out of sight? Birds that have caught a pellet or two often fly strongly--you might think you've missed--until they suddenly fold and drop.

Amy Dahl


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Look I asked if it would make a good solid duck dog, thats all I want. I got yes it will I got the program is trash, and everything in between. I though I've been very clear with saying that all I'm looking for is solid duck dogs, I have no desire at this point to run test or trials, If I get into I probably will look into a Smartwork, or Total retriever methode. It obvious this is a very Trial and Test orrented board and American training styles are the status quo. Good luck train your FC and GRHRC, and MH. For now I want a dog that will pick up 250-300 ducks a year and pretty much all fall with in 100yrds and even bigger % in side 50.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

hfsDogs said:


> Look I asked if it would make a good solid duck dog, thats all I want. I got yes it will I got the program is trash, and everything in between. I though I've been very clear with saying that all I'm looking for is solid duck dogs, I have no desire at this point to run test or trials, If I get into I probably will look into a Smartwork, or Total retriever methode. It obvious this is a very Trial and Test orrented board and American training styles are the status quo. Good luck train your FC and GRHRC, and MH. For now I want a dog that will pick up 250-300 ducks a year and pretty much all fall with in 100yrds and even bigger % in side 50.


Where in Alabama do you pickup that many birds in a year?


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

hfsDogs said:


> Look I asked if it would make a good solid duck dog, thats all I want. I got yes it will I got the program is trash, and everything in between. I though I've been very clear with saying that all I'm looking for is solid duck dogs


There are different definitions of "solid duck dog." My definition includes a dog that will handle because no dog sees them all go down and also there are many times that we are able to see cripples swimming away that the dog can't see because our eyes are so much higher above the water than our dog's eyes and it is a great benefit to be able to quickly and cleanly handle the dog to that bird without a lot of fuss or rock throwing.



hfsDogs said:


> I have no desire at this point to run test or trials, If I get into I probably will look into a Smartwork, or Total retriever methode.


Hunt tests are a lot of fun. Hunting season is so short and you put so much into training your dog that it is fun to be able to do something with your dog (that your dog really enjoys) when hunting season is closed. I would encourage you to check them out.

One of my points is that if you've started training your dog using WR Way, which you've obviously decided to do, and then decide that you want something more (because of HT or whatever) then switching to Smartworks or Total Retriever Training will require you to go virtually back to square one (as I described with my former dog in an earlier post on this thread).

Once again, good luck to you and your dog.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

afdahl said:


> After you shoot and some number of birds fall close, do you watch the flock out of sight? Birds that have caught a pellet or two often fly strongly--you might think you've missed--until they suddenly fold and drop.
> 
> Amy Dahl


I was starting to think that maybe I just hunt with crappy shooters.. because at least once or twice a year this happens on one of my hunts, and boy does my chest puff out when my dog runs that 400 yd blind and I don't have to trudge through calf deep snow our work extra hard to unanchor the boat and then set up again.... thanks for asking this question Amy!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

hfsDogs said:


> Look I asked if it would make a good solid duck dog, thats all I want. I got yes it will I got the program is trash, and everything in between. I though I've been very clear with saying that all I'm looking for is solid duck dogs, I have no desire at this point to run test or trials, If I get into I probably will look into a Smartwork, or Total retriever methode. It obvious this is a very Trial and Test orrented board and American training styles are the status quo. Good luck train your FC and GRHRC, and MH. For now I want a dog that will pick up 250-300 ducks a year and pretty much all fall with in 100yrds and even bigger % in side 50.



Before making a decision one way or another take a look at the finished product. CAHRC is having a training day in Greensboro Alabama on the 23rd of July. You are more than welcome to bring your dog and train with us. Your dog will enjoy picking up some ducks. P.M. for directions if interested.
Mark Land


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

I think that the definition of a good hunting dog is the grey area on this.

To some extent, you can get a fairly well bred lab, and almost do no training, and that dog will pick up your ducks that fall around your decoys. They're really pretty good with almost no training. (In the interest of adding additional controversy to this thread, I also think your odds of having this naturally good duck hunting dog with no training are significantly better if you get a Chessie instead of a Lab)

I also think that the majority of hunters (and I will include myself about 15 years ago in this) really have no idea of what these dogs are capable of, and that most of these "good" duck hunting dogs are actually not that good, not easy to be around, break, don't bring the birds back, spend most of the hunt getting yelled at, etc, but the fact that most of the hunters don't know better means that because the dog made 8 retrieves back to the general area of the blind on ducks that fell dead in the decoys, and only ate one, means he's a great hunting dog.

I think it's not likely that I'll ever FT my dog, and it doesn't bother me a bit that my previous dogs don't have any Hunt Test credentials. I plan to hunt test my current pup, but regardless of that, just knowing how truly amazing these dogs can be is motivation enough for me to want to train my pup to the highest level I can. Purely because I love watching them work, and I love seeing all of our work (pup's work and mine) result in something so beautiful and rare.


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Before making a decision one way or another take a look at the finished product. CAHRC is having a training day in Greensboro Alabama on the 23rd of July. You are more than welcome to bring your dog and train with us. Your dog will enjoy picking up some ducks. P.M. for directions if interested.
> Mark Land


You should if at all possible take Mark up on his offer. if i did not have plans elsewhere for the 23rd I WOULD BE DRIVING 3.5 HOURS to train with these guys....they are THAT nice and THAT good
On another note Mark was one of the 1st guys i ever met at a hunt test i didnt even have a dog yet. i overheard him and some other fellers talking so i walked over and started asking some questions.....they answered them and welcomed me right in GREAT PEOPLE you will meet at huntest yes you will


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## meckardt (Jun 24, 2010)

I don't want a WR dog but it did get me thinking about them. So I went and checked out their website, as I haven't seen it in years. Stewart now has 3 locations MS, AR and CO and they all look to be pretty sweet. No matter if it is a marketing scheme, this guy has built a nice business for himself and family. This guy is making a fortune from a select class of ppl. More power to him for being able to do what he loves and make bank. This being said, I don't think il be donating .


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)




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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

R Little said:


> Where in Alabama do you pickup that many birds in a year?


We do pretty good on the Tn river around decatur, but we also hunted 54 days of a 60 day season last year, and most of the early teal. And there isn't much that comes into my groups blind that doesn't get put on the water.

Mr. Land, I'd love to come Greensbro is about 3 hours from me, and right now I just can't swing that road trip. I'd like to find a good training group to take part in cause I think its a great way to train and meet some new people.

And I haven't totally ruled out doing HT, I probably will look at getting into them once I get a better handle on this whole training thing, and if I do I will probably look at different training methodes. 

And I may have jumped to some conclusions and come aross in way different than i really ment to, I guess I read just enough to know enough to make me think I know more than I really do. Sorry guys.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

You will be able to train a dog alone following a program. However, training with a group will increase your and your dogs learning curve exponentially. I live in Sulligent and train infrequently in the heat. If you want to make the trip sometime let me know.
Mark Land


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Mr. Land, I totally agree with you on the group training, and If I'm ever down that way I'll be sure to give yall a hollar.


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

Mark would y'all be ok with me joining you guys. I have a dog I'd like to get with a group. I know how to shoot and throw and would be glad to help.

Bill B


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Bill
You are more than welcome to join us. Will be shorter set ups than you normally run. If you want a mat please bring it. I'll bring my white coat to make you feel at home.
Mark Land


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## DSMITH1651 (Feb 23, 2008)

hfsdogs, The one thing that I will repeat is this, If you have training questions and road blocks (you will) it will be much easer for other trainers to help you if you fallow one of the Carr based training systems. I don't think that this point can be stressed enough know matter what you are looking for in a gun dog.
Duane


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

hfsDogs said:


> Mr. Land, I totally agree with you on the group training, and If I'm ever down that way I'll be sure to give yall a hollar.


We have a group training day in North AL every month. Next date will be August 20. Look for details on ALDucks.com.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Pals said:


> I bet the WR method would fix /paul's cat problem. Poor guy really has it bad right now!


I thought /paul was on the fence with his cat,;-) 
not knowing if he would follow Smartcat or Totalcat? 
But now you say he has a wildcat option? 
if the kitty in question is smelly, shouldn't he use fowlcat?
.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> I thought /paul was on the fence with his cat,;-)
> not knowing if he would follow Smartcat or Totalcat?
> But now you say he has a wildcat option?
> if the kitty in question is smelly, shouldn't he use fowlcat?
> .


I'm thinking the deadcat series might be an option after the success I had with my donkey in the smartass series


/Paul


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Shoot- the only reason that little baskird is messing with cats is that beavers don't have ears.

Cut to the chase regards

Bubba


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> I thought /paul was on the fence with his cat,;-)
> not knowing if he would follow Smartcat or Totalcat?
> But now you say he has a wildcat option?
> if the kitty in question is smelly, shouldn't he use fowlcat?
> .


 
Well he does have a stinky kitty problem, but that is far overshadowed by the slobbering, shivering, refusing to sit to whistle issue. I thought you gave up the Donkey after the Smartass series derby debacle?? It's just not proper decorum to have ones ass running wild and seating on the duck.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> Well he does have a stinky kitty problem, but that is far overshadowed by the slobbering, shivering, refusing to sit to whistle issue. I thought you gave up the Donkey after the Smartass series derby debacle?? It's just not proper decorum to have ones ass running wild and seating on the duck.


Having an ass that runs wild is just as bad as having a wandering pu**y problem that you can't control in the duck blind. Personally, I think it's always better to have one's dog, ass or kitty admired.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Shoot- the only reason that little baskird is messing with cats is that beavers don't have ears.
> 
> Cut to the chase regards
> 
> Bubba


Beavers are a whole nuther animal. They need a lot of attention, proper shaving and frankly don't respond well to force and pressure. They are a much better candidate for all positive training. Its best though to keep your clicker in your pants where they can't see it, otherwise they get so excited they don't learn much.....

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> Well he does have a stinky kitty problem, but that is far overshadowed by the slobbering, shivering, refusing to sit to whistle issue. I thought you gave up the Donkey after the Smartass series derby debacle?? It's just not proper decorum to have ones ass running wild and seating on the duck.



Well I bought the SmartAss series for my Donkey but frankly it didn't help him much. My Ass had already consulted the ATF - Ass Training Forums and numerous young Ass trainers had provided him methodologies. I was pretty disappointed beca...use I wanted to run my Ass in Derby's and the SmartAss Series creator gave all kinds of advice on how to run my Ass in derby's but then i found out he hadn't ran one in 20 fricking years. I don't want to go down that same path with my cat.

/Paul


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pals said:


> Well he does have a stinky kitty problem, but that is far overshadowed by the slobbering, shivering, refusing to sit to whistle issue. I thought you gave up the Donkey after the Smartass series derby debacle?? It's just not proper decorum to have ones ass running wild and seating on the duck.


Stinky kitty problem? Have you seen the SIZE of his kitty? She's GI-NORMOUS! Stinky is an understatement.

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Having an ass that runs wild is just as bad as having a wandering pu**y problem that you can't control in the duck blind. Personally, I think it's always better to have one's dog, ass or kitty admired.


I agree! HEAR HEAR!!

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well I bought the SmartAss series for my Donkey but frankly it didn't help him much. My Ass had already consulted the ATF - Ass Training Forums and numerous young Ass trainers had provided him methodologies. I was pretty disappointed beca...use I wanted to run my Ass in Derby's and the SmartAss Series creator gave all kinds of advice on how to run my Ass in derby's but then i found out he hadn't ran one in 20 fricking years. I don't want to go down that same path with my cat.
> 
> /Paul


Yeah Paul, you don't want to go up the ASS Path.

WRL


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

WRL said:


> Yeah Paul, you don't want to go up the ASS Path.
> 
> WRL


Just make sure you wear the fluffy gloves if required.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

And shower!!! Don't forget to shower.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> And shower!!! Don't forget to shower.


My cat hates to shower but the beaver seems fine with it....

/Paul


----------



## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> My cat hates to shower but the beaver seems fine with it....
> 
> /Paul


Wow! How to skate close to the line....


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

There was a beaver walking down the road here at the farm. I pulled up to it in my Honda to take an up close picture to share with you all. It did a barrel roll and tried bite the tire. That was a new one. 

Went fishing in Beaver, Wa. It was a long drive but, well worth it.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Went fishing in Beaver, Wa. It was a long drive but, well worth it.


While you were fishing, did you catch any crabs?

WRL


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> There was a beaver walking down the road here at the farm. I pulled up to it in my Honda to take an up close picture to share with you all. It did a barrel roll and tried bite the tire. That was a new one.
> 
> Went fishing in Beaver, Wa. It was a long drive but, well worth it.


Never trust an aggressive beaver that bites round things without first being told fetch. Probably should do some walking fetch drills with it to make sure it knows that not everything needs retrieving....

Jello Babe's possum was a random fetcher, she might have some ideas on how to fix it as well.....

/Paul


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

How do beavers do with the clicker? Can you force them to the tire with it?


----------



## mike olson (Aug 11, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> Having an ass that runs wild is just as bad as having a wandering pu**y problem that you can't control in the duck blind. Personally, I think it's always better to have one's dog, ass or kitty admired.


You two always make me laugh. I gotta go train my American dogs that a British basedtrainer said couldn't have as good of noses as his because they didn't come from Ireland or something like that. Also some kind of comment like ecollar trained dogs couldn't be as steady as his. 

Later Mike


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> How do beavers do with the clicker? Can you force them to the tire with it?


Only if they fully understand pressure. The recent advice seems to be to turn up the stimulation and see how your beaver reacts....

I will say again, i have had little success forcing a beaver to do anything, much like my cat. I think they are like chessies in that area....

/Paul


----------



## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

I must agree with Paul. In my experience, force on the beaver has very limited, if any, recognizable results!


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Only if they fully understand pressure. The recent advice seems to be to turn up the stimulation and see how your beaver reacts....
> 
> I will say again, i have had little success forcing a beaver to do anything, much like my cat. I think they are like chessies in that area....
> 
> /Paul


Yeah, I was pretty sure of the cat. They would probably dig the clicker if catnip was involved.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

So what type of wood do you have Paul to treat train your beaver?

Inquiring minds.........


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Dman said:


> I must agree with Paul. In my experience, force on the beaver has very limited, if any, recognizable results!


Generally true I think. But actually I've run into beavers that are very responsive to a high level of pressure. They seem to encourage it. I don't think it is the normal response for a beaver but you have to be alert & prepared.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

WRL said:


> Yeah Paul, you don't want to go up the ASS Path.
> 
> WRL


This comment reminds me of the seinfeld episode where Kraemer got the protologist's license plates..... ASS Man..............


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Generally true I think. But actually I've run into beavers that are very responsive to a high level of pressure. They seem to encourage it. I don't think it is the normal response for a beaver but you have to be alert & prepared.


I knew that story about someone else naming that dog of yours just wasn't true............ just sayin'


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> So what type of wood do you have Paul to treat train your beaver?
> 
> Inquiring minds.........


I would think that you would definitely want a hardwood. A hardwood such as cherry could be nice......... I would think it would be like a campfire or smoking meats, where hardwoods are preferaable because they burn hotter and longer than softwoods............ Softwoods would just not be right for the job.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I have to take notes. Hardwood - check. What smart series is beaver training?


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Yeah Susan, you are right! I love a smokin hardwood.

WRL


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Dman said:


> I must agree with Paul. In my experience, force on the beaver has very limited, if any, recognizable results!


Most beavers respond to SOME force. But it really takes the correct amount of force at the right time.

If the beaver UNDERSTANDS the force and is prepared for the force, well then it could be very exciting.

WRL


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> So what type of wood do you have Paul to treat train your beaver?
> 
> Inquiring minds.........


Hardwoods are good. Evergreens on the right beaver can do wonders as well. Once the leaves fall off a hardwood what do you have left? Evergreens are ready at any time. Course it depends on the beaver, you know they are unique. Sometimes you have to just go with whatever wood you have and hope for the best....

/Paul


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I would like some advice on how to handle a smokin beaver?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> I would like some advice on how to handle a smokin beaver?


Well thats another whole training thread and we shouldn't muck up this one on Mike Stewarts methods. These training threads can really get deep. I'm gonna go fire up the Sportster, put on some leather and spend the next few hours in the classic car cruise in on main street. I'll give your question some thought though. I'll bet I come up with a few ideas to keep you training...

/Paul


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> I would like some advice on how to handle a smokin beaver?


You have to put some wood on it (hardwoods, not the softwoods).


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Pals said:


> I would like some advice on how to handle a smokin beaver?


I would follow the Gump example and drop her on the floor and say "She taste like cigarettes Lt. Dan!"


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> I would follow the Gump example and drop her on the floor and say "She taste like cigarettes Lt. Dan!"


I can tell you right now, that Beavers do NOT like to be dropped. That will certainly get one fired up - things will get mean and ugly!


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

MORE WOOD? I have to go shopping....


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

JusticeDog said:


> ...I would...definitely want... a hard wood, cherry could be nice..........


Boys say hi to Ms. Bledsoe. She will be your new summer camp swim coach.
Everyone get your trunks on and run down to the lake!

.


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

JusticeDog said:


> You have to put some wood on it (hardwoods, not the softwoods).


that does get things in the "Groove"...


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pals said:


> I would like some advice on how to handle a smokin beaver?


If your beaver be smokin', you best just leave it alone!

WRL


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

WRL said:


> If your beaver be smokin', you best just leave it alone!
> 
> WRL


Lee- You're the one that suggested putting some water on the smoking beaver......... but that only makes the beaver smolder. You can't train a smoldering beaver at all. Not even with SmartAss.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

What about the aged beaver? Should it be left in the kennel or just lie on the couch?


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Boys say hi to Ms. Bledsoe. She will be your new summer camp swim coach.
> Everyone get your trunks on and run down to the lake!
> 
> .


Well, I can see that if I ever run for political office these words will come back to haunt me! And to think, I was just tryin' to help these newbies to train their dogs, donkeys, and beavers! I swear!


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> What about the aged beaver? Should it be left in the kennel or just lie on the couch?


neither. Aged anythings should still be worked. Otherwise, they become, well.... just old. And kinda useless.


----------



## jeffy (Jul 10, 2011)

Pals said:


> I would like some advice on how to handle a smokin beaver?


I read a story about Smokey The Bear, when his wife came home with a smokin beaver he beat it with a shovel.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Lee- You're the one that suggested putting some water on the smoking beaver......... but that only makes the beaver smolder. You can't train a smoldering beaver at all. Not even with SmartAss.


A smokin' beaver NEEDS no training!

But if you feel the need to work it, well then smothering it with something wet works. Or, as you suggested, stoke it with some hardwood for a real hot beaver.

WRL


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

jeffy said:


> I read a story about Smokey The Bear, when his wife came home with a smokin beaver he beat it with a shovel.


I'm here to tell ya, nothing good will come from smacking a beaver (smokin or not) with a shovel....tsk tsk....nope, not a good thing.

WRL


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

2tall said:


> What about the aged beaver? Should it be left in the kennel or just lie on the couch?


The aged beaver needs work too. Otherwise, it gets shriveled and dry from lack of work. No one wants to see an old shriveled and wrinkly beaver.

WRL


----------



## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

jeffy said:


> I read a story about Smokey The Bear, when his wife came home with a smokin beaver he beat it with a shovel.


I think the story teller was confused. Probably meant to say 'spanked the beaver'


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Whoooooooie- it appears that I underestimated the whole beaver training thing. Purely in the interest of furthering my education, I googled up the subject and it turns out that there is a LOT of information readily available. Millions of videos and offers for advanced training seminars.

Wonder if there is a PBTA out there somewhere?

Trying to help out in the worst way regards

Bubba


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Well we still have not addressed those dreaded issues; Noisy beavers who freeze.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pals said:


> Well we still have not addressed those dreaded issues; Noisy beavers who freeze.


In order to accurately discuss those topics, you know you also have to talk about sticky beavers.

WRL


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

And Pals, lets also not forget to discuss the "fire breather beavers".....

WRL


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Well since Paul is our resident beaver training expert I eagerly await his professional opinion on these troublesome issues.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This is the most absurd tangent from a Wildrose thread I've ever read....it must be the heat.  

Having hunted ducks with a dog that had very little formal training and then finding out what these dogs are capable of doing, I find "this thread" (which is a multiple rerun) amusing. It's kind of like "Groundhog Day". 

Apparantly, everyone has a tendency to lean in one direction (or another).


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Now Jim beaver trainin is serious business. 

First off, a lot of people get thier panties in wad over nothing.









Like canine training, keeping a log of training progress can really simplify things....










Patience is key as well. Trainin beavers take time, for most men a lifetime. You pretty much need to throw away the calendar and just take it slow. Beavers like it slow....









There is more too it then just getting a beaver and hammering away at. We discussed the negative effects of improper force and pressure already so I won't get into that.

/Paul


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> ......./.First off, a lot of people get thier panties in wad over nothing.There is more too it then just getting a beaver and hammering away at. We discussed the negative effects of improper force and pressure already so I won't get into that.
> 
> /Paul


would attrition be considered a form of force in this instance? Pulling all the way back before moving forward?;-)
　
.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> would attrition be considered a form of force in this instance? Pulling all the way back before moving forward?;-)
> 
> .


I think you have to be careful with this. As Lee mentioned you could end up with a bunch off issues, for example getting sticky on the release. Now on the other hand if done right you can avoid some issues especially around close in work, for example bugging. Nothing worse than a bugging beaver....

/Paul


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> would attrition be considered a form of force in this instance? Pulling all the way back before moving forward?;-)
> 
> .


Never use direct pressure my friend......


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Pals said:


> So what type of wood do you have Paul to treat train your beaver?
> 
> Inquiring minds.........


 
Well, I might be speaking out of turn for the other Paul but, my personal experience is that beavers prefer alder and cottonwood. 

Best to be careful with your stickmen drills no matter what they are made from....


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Paul- 

I know you talked about the slobbering cat and ways to work on the issue. Is the training program the same for a slobbering beaver?


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Pals said:


> Well we still have not addressed those dreaded issues; Noisy beavers who freeze.


Actually noise could be an indication that the work is effective but a beaver that freezes could be very frustrating.....like any training, however, the circumstances have to be considered.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

is a frigid beaver the result of too much direct pressure or too little indirect pressure...and does Tri Tronics make a device with a high enough setting to address the problem


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> is a frigid beaver the result of too much direct pressure or too little indirect pressure...and does Tri Tronics make a device with a high enough setting to address the problem


A frigid beaver just doesn't necessarily need big wood, but some well seasoned wood, and first indirect pressure then direct pressure.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Paul-
> 
> I know you talked about the slobbering cat and ways to work on the issue. Is the training program the same for a slobbering beaver?



Yucky! I would think if you had a slobbering beaver you had better wash that one......start over.....

WRL


----------



## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Aren't most of these issues avoided if the beaver has been properly socialized?

Isn't it important to let them meet other people?


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

can you force a beaver or will it give you a no go...or possibly bolt..is it legal to be a professional beaver trainer and can you apprentice somewhere...my Resistol cowboy hat says 6XXX beaver, is that a good thing


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

To avoid a frigid beaver you have to shear them properly. Otherwise, they do not maintain their warmth.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> is it legal to be a professional beaver trainer and can you apprentice somewhere...my Resistol cowboy hat says 6XXX beaver, is that a good thing


 
Only in Nevada....

Lucky You!!!


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Actually noise could be an indication that the work is effective but a beaver that freezes could be very frustrating.....like any training, however, the circumstances have to be considered.


Actually, I think that it would depend on when the noise is occuring.......


----------



## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Yes!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!!


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

WRL said:


> Yucky! I would think if you had a slobbering beaver you had better wash that one......start over.....
> 
> WRL


WRL...does that stand for Wild Rose Labs?


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pas Bon said:


> WRL...does that stand for Wild Rose Labs?


Uh.....nope.

WRL


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I had a slobbering beaver in for training once, and I can say it was interesting to say the least. I found that a lot of water work was the only way to make progress. Slippery slope if you dont handle it right


/Paul


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I had a slobbering beaver in for training once, and I can say it was interesting to say the least. I found that a lot of water work was the only way to make progress. Slippery slope if you dont handle it right
> 
> 
> /Paul


 
Can you still train a Beaver in heat?


----------



## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> can you force a beaver or will it give you a no go...or possibly bolt..is it legal to be a professional beaver trainer and can you apprentice somewhere...my Resistol cowboy hat says 6XXX beaver, is that a good thing


You CAN force fetch a beaver.... they're just really tough because they have such small itty bitty ears.

Regards.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

If a beaver doesn't respond to force then all that's left to do is to eat'em.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

You guys keep this up,, and theres gonna be a VIBRATE option offered by tritonics!

Gooser


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Damn.... I waited until I'm 50 to learn how to read a beaver.....Properly that is....

I never knew??

Also, a 6 high on a TT is the vibrate feature!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> You guys keep this up,, and theres gonna be a VIBRATE option offered by tritonics!
> 
> Gooser


 
Dogtra folks beat em to the beaver market I guess?


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

TroyFeeken said:


> You CAN force fetch a beaver.... they're just really tough because they have such small itty bitty ears.
> 
> Regards.


cant you grab the string and go for a toe hitch? 
or would that be a..... 
camel toe hitch?


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Kenneth Bora!!! Shame on you!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

firehouselabs said:


> Kenneth Bora!!! Shame on you!


Well, If I remember right, a camel toe hitch might be required because the camel only has three toes and with a beavers' webbed feet, you'd need a hitch capable of properly hitching the flexible skin webbed between the toe which would be a different type of hitching for camels but, would probably apply to the hitching of a beaver toe. A beaver toe and camel toe, while different have similar proportions and needs. 

Does that make sense? 

And, to further explain the point, Mr. Bora is known for his knot tying skills aquired through his experience of un-tying other peoples bumper ropes and re-tying his own new ropes onto others bumpers.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Still trying to get those images out of my head...both, with the "real" animals and the "other" one. I did hear that Ken was good with his naughty knots.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm really starting to like these wildrose duckhill threads. Yep not to shabby!


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

firehouselabs said:


> Still trying to get those images out of my head...both, with the "real" animals and the "other" one. I did hear that Ken was good with his naughty knots.


I always heard that Ken was good with hardwoods............. isn't he known for poking trees? Particularly maple. I'm sure he's got the beavers well under control.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I always heard that Ken was good with hardwoods............. isn't he known for poking trees? Particularly maple. I'm sure he's got the beavers well under control.


Yep. I heard the same thing too Susan.

I heard he was a master beaver baiter....that's how he keeps them under control.

WRL


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I've heard "Beaver" make nice warm hats.
Is this true??


Just askin'.......


*RK*


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

road kill said:


> I've heard "Beaver" make nice warm hats.
> Is this true??
> 
> 
> ...


they gotta be better than '****;-)


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Yep, they appear to be trendy if you ask me!


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> I always heard that Ken was good with *hardwoods*............. isn't he known for poking trees? Particularly maple. I'm sure he's got the beavers well under control.


Your killin' me here!!!!


*RK*


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Byron Musick said:


> Yep, they appear to be trendy if you ask me!


Nuttin' like piggybackin' a beaver


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Notice how well we have hold down on this little guy...

/Paul


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Notice how well we have hold down on this little guy...
> 
> /Paul


Is that his tail?
Or was he just glad to.....never mind.

*RK*


----------



## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

As the kilt wearing community says, "You can't beat a good beaver."

(click photo to purchase one. ;-).)


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Since we have a lot of people that train at Bong, I was wondering if anyone has every trained at Beaver Dick?











/Paul


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Since we have a lot of people that train at Bong, I was wondering if anyone has every trained at Beaver Dick?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The last line, "He was widely known and liked." Says it all......


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Is it true that the water at Bong has some "medicinal" properties?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

firehouselabs said:


> Is it true that the water at Bong has some "medicinal" properties?


I have heard all my life "don't drink the Bong water." 

never given a reason for it.

/Paul


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Keith Stroyan said:


> As the kilt wearing community says, "You can't beat a good beaver."
> 
> (click photo to purchase one. ;-).)


Hmmmmmm..... it says that wearing one will make you "stand out from the crowd"............ I bet it "wood"


Just sayin'


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

...." it will be an instant talking-point wherever it is worn." So I guess that you should talk into your beaver? I wonder how the reception is, if it is good then I'll be dropping my cell phone!


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

firehouselabs said:


> ...." it will be an instant talking-point wherever it is worn." So I guess that you should talk into your beaver? I wonder how the reception is, if it is good then I'll be dropping my cell phone!


It's been my experience that beavers don't listen well, at least to me.....:shock:


*RK*


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

road kill said:


> It's been my experience that beavers don't listen well, at least to me.....:shock:
> 
> 
> *RK*



If you give em a good hair cutting they can hear much better, I've heard these folks do a really good job!


----------



## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

You folks are killing me..
This the best Wildrose thread ever..


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I think I just got my answer on why not to drink the bong water....










/Paul


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Ach der laddy! Where be yer beaver sporran?


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

For those of you wanting help training your beaver, I have put together a brief DVD of tips, pointers, woody species, and other various helpful hints. All of course based on the expert knowledge contained and gleened(copied) from the professional expert beaver wranglers on RTF. Today it's your's for the low, low introductory price of $99.99. Pay your pals accepted. 

Shameless brazen hussy plug regards!!!

oh rats---I need a catchy song and a sponsor, before I can begin selling, er uhmmm, PROMOTING my Beaver Training DVD. 

;-);-);-)


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Here you go Nance! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxpKkJ99WY0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vfsd07Lofc&NR=1&feature=fvwp


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

With all this discussion about Beavers, I went looking for one. Well, I came up short. I started one but, I had a real bad bolting issue. Wasn't sure how to fix it because Paul wouldn't return my phone calls. (hey Paul! try paying your phone bill you flakey so-called Beaver trainer...) 

Well, Since it appears the market has been flooded by Beaver trainers. I'm going a different route. Here is my first study....



















He's responding real well to the choke collar and I'm working on his sit-stay. He's young but, I think if I take my time I'll have something special. He has an excellent nose and his climbing abilities are second to none.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

That's one of those "silver" beavers isn't it!


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> For those of you wanting help training your beaver, I have put together a brief DVD of tips, pointers, woody species, and other various helpful hints. All of course based on the expert knowledge contained and gleened(copied) from the professional expert beaver wranglers on RTF. Today it's your's for the low, low introductory price of $99.99. Pay your pals accepted.
> 
> Shameless brazen hussy plug regards!!!
> 
> ...


is this program better than SmartBeavs? Cause I heard SmartBeavs is really good. Not sure how many Beavs the author has trained to the highest level of Beav training, but he writes well..............


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

firehouselabs said:


> That's one of those "silver" beavers isn't it!


silly girl,
it's just a ****.
when beaver turns silver it becomes a cougar and that is an entirely different type of hunting.
a feller cant be harmed that much by the garden variety beaver, maybe a little wood gnawing.
But them cougars, if a feller ain't careful, well he wont come back. Not alive anyway.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

firehouselabs said:


> Here you go Nance!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxpKkJ99WY0&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vfsd07Lofc&NR=1&feature=fvwp


 
I think it's gotta be more the first one Nancy!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I wonder if we should be giving our beavers tuna oil? Doc E seems to think that they would be easier to train.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

If you believe things will shake out like this fairy tale you just described your in for a rude awakening.


hfsDogs said:


> Todd i'm not trying to sell you on a methode you obviously don't believe in. I simply asked for opions on the methode you gave yours and I thank you for that, who knows one day down the road I may even think he told me so....
> 
> But before I let this thread, and possiably this board go quietly into the night, I will say this. If you start a pup early on and teach it the right way it will learn it better and never know there is any other way to do it, thus being no need for force, so in the terms of cheating, is cheating or is it not an issue of a dog will not hold a true line? I believe it is, so if a dog is taught that the only way to get to something is to run a straight line (which is what running down the fence teaches) and if you get it solid on land it should and will translate to water and cheating should never be an issue. And if you have a dog that will retrieve early one, if you throw the mark let him run to it, bring it back and scoop him in your arms all the while he still holding the bumper, and let him hold it till you tell him to drop it you've effectivly taught fetch with out force. And if you have any kind of retrieveing dog with any kind of pedigree it should have enough retrieveing instinc that simply making the retrieve is enough insentive tou go hense agian force should never be needed.


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Yeah I belive it will work out fine, see you have to have talent to start with (can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear), and I think I have that in a little 11 week old BLF, that is delievering to hand never been FF, sitting on a whistle, and took her first left cast today, and comming to the whistle. Some how I think she will be just fine. Oh and I have a 1 year old YLM that is running ladder drills out to 125yrds, walking B-ball, and delivers to hand and once agian was never FF. Oh did some water work with him the yesterday evening and gave him the oppertunity to cheat the bank and didn't do it.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Sounds like you have it al figured out then. What lines are your pups from?


hfsDogs said:


> Yeah I belive it will work out fine, see you have to have talent to start with (can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear), and I think I have that in a little 11 week old BLF, that is delievering to hand never been FF, sitting on a whistle, and took her first left cast today, and comming to the whistle. Some how I think she will be just fine. Oh and I have a 1 year old YLM that is running ladder drills out to 125yrds, walking B-ball, and delivers to hand and once agian was never FF. Oh did some water work with him the yesterday evening and gave him the oppertunity to cheat the bank and didn't do it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

hfsDogs said:


> Yeah I belive it will work out fine, see you have to have talent to start with (can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear), and I think I have that in a little 11 week old BLF, that is delievering to hand never been FF, sitting on a whistle, and took her first left cast today, and comming to the whistle. Some how I think she will be just fine. Oh and I have a 1 year old YLM that is running ladder drills out to 125yrds, walking B-ball, and delivers to hand and once agian was never FF. Oh did some water work with him the yesterday evening and gave him the oppertunity to cheat the bank and didn't do it.


11 week old puppy? 1 year old doing ladder drills? Can you please come run FT's with me...?

/Paul


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## jeffy (Jul 10, 2011)

I have the laser disc of this program.
View attachment 5794


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

jeffy said:


> I have the laser disc of this program.
> View attachment 5794


 
that there's funny...


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

My year old, was a freebie dog that was given to my brother, out of just good duck dog breeding, no trial or HT pedigree anywhere in it. He's really suprised me at how well he's taking to his training, I honestly didn't expect much I figured I could get him obedent steady and retrieve marks well. But I started with ladder at 10,15,20 got that down backed it up, and just keept streching him out. And the 11 week old pup is out of my dad's BLF, and his buddy has a YLM that they breed, again out of just good gun dog breeding. And all I've really been working with her on is basic obedence, and then yesterday she put sit together when she got back to me on the retrieve and has alway held the puppy bumper till I told her to give it to me.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Wow..I've never seen so much beaver talk..

A good idea might could be just to be to simply "Leave it to Beaver"


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

What part of Alabama are you in?


hfsDogs said:


> My year old, was a freebie dog that was given to my brother, out of just good duck dog breeding, no trial or HT pedigree anywhere in it. He's really suprised me at how well he's taking to his training, I honestly didn't expect much I figured I could get him obedent steady and retrieve marks well. But I started with ladder at 10,15,20 got that down backed it up, and just keept streching him out. And the 11 week old pup is out of my dad's BLF, and his buddy has a YLM that they breed, again out of just good gun dog breeding. And all I've really been working with her on is basic obedence, and then yesterday she put sit together when she got back to me on the retrieve and has alway held the puppy bumper till I told her to give it to me.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Swampbilly said:


> Wow..I've never seen so much beaver talk..
> 
> A good idea might could be just to be to simply "Leave it to Beaver"


At least that one does not need a shave*!!!*:shock:

*RK*


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

hfsDogs said:


> My year old, was a freebie dog that was given to my brother, out of just good duck dog breeding, no trial or HT pedigree anywhere in it. He's really suprised me at how well he's taking to his training, I honestly didn't expect much I figured I could get him obedent steady and retrieve marks well. But I started with ladder at 10,15,20 got that down backed it up, and just keept streching him out. *And the 11 week old pup *is out of my dad's BLF, and his buddy has a YLM that they breed, again out of just good gun dog breeding. And all I've really been working with her on is basic obedence, and then yesterday she put sit together when she got back to me on the retrieve and *has alway held the puppy bumper till I told her to give it to me.*




The pup is 11 weeks old right? You said it has always delivered to hand or until you told it to drop it? How many weeks has it been retrieving?...3 or 4 at the most? Dont you think that it might be doing this now but in a month or two could possibly not bring it to hand?


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

He will find that out in due time


Matthew Hambright said:


> [/B]
> 
> The pup is 11 weeks old right? You said it has always delivered to hand or until you told it to drop it? How many weeks has it been retrieving?...3 or 4 at the most? Dont you think that it might be doing this now but in a month or two could possibly not bring it to hand?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

road kill said:


> At least that one does not need a shave*!!!*:shock:
> 
> *RK*


 
Never trained a shaved beaver. Sounds interesing & beneficial but seems once it is shaved it must be maintained in a shaved condition to remain interesting & beneficial.


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

I'm sure anything is possable. It wasn't an issue with my year old YLM, but she not him. But then again if you promote the right way from day one and get her condtioned to doing that why should it change? Again I understand this is all good in theroy and theroy doesn't always translate to fact. But there are still ways to fix it or to prevent it from happening. Its not what I would condsider a force methode because it doesn't use an ear pinch, but it does force a dog to hold it till I say drop. The whole thing I'm wondering is why do you not think its possiable to train a dog to be a HT or FT competitor using a non force methode, other than the lack of emphasis on lining? I'm trying to educate myself, cause with the promise this 11 week old is showning I'm seriously considering running HT, and I need a reason other than it doesn't emphasize lining, which i can do still with out force with wagon wheels and memory birds, to change from a methode I know to start learning a complete new one.

ClaimsAdj. I'm in North ala not far from Huntsville.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Good deal, your not far from me. Get on alducks.com and keep an eye on the dog training forum. You need to make some training days if you want to pursue hunt tests. You can get a first hand look at how a collar is supposed to be operated by some experienced trainers, as well as what would be expected of your dog in a hunt test.


hfsDogs said:


> I'm sure anything is possable. It wasn't an issue with my year old YLM, but she not him. But then again if you promote the right way from day one and get her condtioned to doing that why should it change? Again I understand this is all good in theroy and theroy doesn't always translate to fact. But there are still ways to fix it or to prevent it from happening. Its not what I would condsider a force methode because it doesn't use an ear pinch, but it does force a dog to hold it till I say drop. The whole thing I'm wondering is why do you not think its possiable to train a dog to be a HT or FT competitor using a non force methode, other than the lack of emphasis on lining? I'm trying to educate myself, cause with the promise this 11 week old is showning I'm seriously considering running HT, and I need a reason other than it doesn't emphasize lining, which i can do still with out force with wagon wheels and memory birds, to change from a methode I know to start learning a complete new one.
> 
> ClaimsAdj. I'm in North ala not far from Huntsville.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

hfsDogs said:


> [snip]But then again if you promote the right way from day one and get her condtioned to doing that why should it change?[snip]The whole thing I'm wondering is why do you not think its possiable to train a dog to be a HT or FT competitor using a non force methode, other than the lack of emphasis on lining?[snip]


It is a common misconception that force fetch is just to make sure your dog will fetch, hold and deliver to hand. That isn't the whole purpose or the whole reason why it is important, but I'll get to that in a minute.

First, I'll address your question about conditioning her to deliver to hand and why would it change.

My first dog was not initially force fetched. I didn't know what I was doing, just trying to follow Water Dog (which I would never recommend to anyone now). Delivery to hand came simple with him. He did it as a puppy and he did it as he grew. He did it with doves, pigeons (training), bumpers, geese, whatever. Fast forward until he was a little over 2 years old. I went straight from shooting GIANT Canada Geese that morning (last day of season) directly to a club training session where they were using pigeons (HRC used to use pigeons back then). Even though my dog was pretty big he could not cradle those giant Canada geese. He HAD to handle them roughly (compared to how he handled doves and ducks) or he couldn't make the retrieve (over land). Well, when we went straight from that to pigeons with only an hour or two in between, he retrieved a pigeon and when he was just a few feet from me he FLATTENED it. It was already dead, but I heard every bone in it's body break and so did everyone else. I was shocked and I just froze. I didn't know what to do to correct him and I was so caught off guard that I lost the opportunity to do it anyway because I just froze. Later in the training session he did it again I was "ready" and I scolded him, but without force fetch I really didn't have the tools to correct him and I didn't even know what the tool (force fetch) was! So after that I was really concerned that I had a real problem on my hands. I read everything I could about "curing" hardmouth, which he had NEVER displayed prior to that day and all of the home remedies (like retrieving bristle brushes that were attached back to back) were useless. I wrote to Jame Spencer and he said Force Fetch was the cure for hardmouth. I bought his book and FF'd my dog and it did cure the problem.

But that isn't the main reason why FF is so important. The reason FF is so important is because conventional retriever training methods are force based and FF teaches the dog how to handle pressure (begins the process anyway) and how to "turn off" pressure by responding properly and quickly. Ultimately this understanding (along with collar conditioning, which just teaches them that the same thing applies to collar pressure as an ear pinch or toe hitch - that you turn it off by giving the correct response that you have already been trained (taught) to give. Without FF you don't have the necessary foundation to proceed with a conventional training program and get anything approaching the full benefit. This applies even to "amish" training and not just training with the e-collar.

It IS possible to train a dog to be "successful" in HT (especially since definitions of "success" will vary) without an e-collar, and maybe without force at all. I've done it both ways and I'll never go the non-force way again...that mostly left me frustrated and my dog confused.

I don't run field trials, but I don't believe it is possible to be successful in FT without using a force based training program. There may be a hand full of trainers who try to train for field trials without using an e-collar (see Bon) but I do believe they still use force based methods, it is just more like training was before e-collars meaning you get a lot more exercise and you'd better have your running shoes on because you are going to have to go to your dog in order to correct him.

The vast majority of people I've met who have tried it both ways now use the e-collar and a Carr-based training program. To me that speaks volumes.

My first retriever was a good to excellent hunting dog depending on the day and even earned mid-level hunt test titles (HR & SH) but I would give just about anything to have that same dog again as a puppy and train him all over knowing what I know now. I would love to see how good he would have been with the best conventional training I could muster (Smartworks & Lardy).

EDIT: It would not be accurate to say that I trained my first dog completely without force, but it was without the e-collar and it was without a comprehensive force based PROGRAM. I did use pinch collar and heeling stick and did force to pile with the stick.

Generally you'll know the "all positive" dogs when you see them. They are the ones whose owners are "begging" them to obey instead of commanding them to obey.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Hey quit GDG'ing up our Beaver thread with training content....











/Paul


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

claimsadj said:


> Good deal, your not far from me. Get on alducks.com and keep an eye on the dog training forum. You need to make some training days if you want to pursue hunt tests. You can get a first hand look at how a collar is supposed to be operated by some experienced trainers, as well as what would be expected of your dog in a hunt test.


Justin, I gave him this info back on page 8. Date will be Aug. 20.


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Okay so FF is the basic foundation where a dog learns to turn off the pressure. But isn't the same thing established in basic obedence with a choke collar walking the dog at heel stoping and applying pressure with the choke collar until he sits? Another question do you think that if you added FF (which stewart does sort of with teaching hold) and the E-collar (CC of course) to this methode that it would make it more effective? I'm just asking simply because I don't know and am trying to educate myself.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Have you seen this? This is the Lardy training flowchart.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Dammit!!! Once a thread is thouroughly GDG'ed it is reasonable to expect it to stay in the gutter. Where is Nancy and Susan when you need them to revive the tree poking and beaver petting thing.

Ward don't you think you were kinda hard on the beaver last night regards

Bubba


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

hfsDogs said:


> Okay so FF is the basic foundation where a dog learns to turn off the pressure. But isn't the same thing established in basic obedence with a choke collar walking the dog at heel stoping and applying pressure with the choke collar until he sits?


Not effectively with the choker. Far better with the heeling stick while formalizing "Sit". Also, CC to "Here" is a great opportunity to pressure condition. I do both prior to FF.

Evan


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Bubba said:


> . Where is Nancy and Susan when you need them to revive the tree poking and beaver petting thing.


Bubba- YOu do understand that a beaver has to be properly conditioned to petting, don't ya.............. There's a flow chart in the back of SmartBeavs.............In the appendix.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

GDG-GDG
there are a couple of things i gotta add:

1) when using pressure you have to read the beaver. no two beavers are exactly alike! one beaver may be a little soft and respond better to lighter more sensitive pressure. others may require a firmer application of pressure with repetition to achieve the desired behavioral modification. as always the timing of the application of pressure is the key to getting results from the beaver.

2) force is very different than pressure. don't be suprised if you find the tables turned on you when using force in training a beaver. you may go out with tools in hand and a goal in mind only to later find yourself wearing the choke chain against a taught lead, a healing stick drawn on you and your own muck boot planted squarely between your shoulders. just remember when using force, even if that beaver is smoking hot, the beaver decides if the session continues. in a force session, if the beaver says no, stop training immediately!

3) bubba mentioned a few pages back that there is a great deal of training material in print and online. trainers should be judicious with the use of these materials however. some trainers get bogged down and even addicted to the beaver training info. i hear it renders some of being incapable of effectively training their own beaver in real life. this will adversely affect the trainer's relationship with the beaver, often beyond reconciliation.

4) ever seen a beaver trainers trailer or chassis mount. no? why? because each trainer is meant to train just one beaver!

dude like claims and rf said we train all the time. pm me we will get it done one way or another.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

roseberry said:


> .... in a force session, if the beaver says no, stop training immediately!


Yes, they are a lot like Peakes.............. you have to make the Beaver think it was their idea..............


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I feared the worst when you chimed in!!! Very insightful post.


roseberry said:


> GDG-GDG
> there are a couple of things i gotta add:
> 
> 1) when using pressure you have to read the beaver. no two beavers are exactly alike! one beaver may be a little soft and respond better to lighter more sensitive pressure. others may require a firmer application of pressure with repetition to achieve the desired behavioral modification. as always the timing of the application of pressure is the key to getting results from the beaver.
> ...


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

hfsDogs said:


> Okay so FF is the basic foundation where a dog learns to turn off the pressure. But isn't the same thing established in basic obedence with a choke collar walking the dog at heel stoping and applying pressure with the choke collar until he sits? Another question do you think that if you added FF (which stewart does sort of with teaching hold) and the E-collar (CC of course) to this methode that it would make it more effective? I'm just asking simply because I don't know and am trying to educate myself.


Since you posted this Evan already answered your first question and he is more qualified to do so than I so I'll not try to add to his response.

When you say Stewart does (add FF) sort of with teaching hold, I would disagree. Teaching hold is not FF at all. Remember, I have not seen his DVD, so I don't know how he teaches hold but I would guess it is pretty similar to how everyone else teaches hold and that isn't FF. There may be some mental pressure involved but certainly not to the level of FF. As far as adding FF to Stewart's methodology, I'm talking a little bit out of school but I would say that you will not reap anything close to the full benefits of FF if you are not using a system that is designed to build on FF.

Take a look at Lardy's flow chart that someone posted. You have yardwork in one column and field work in the other. You are supposed to progress down each column simultaneously. If you understand the meaning of the various steps shown there you will see that every step builds on the last one and every step prepares the dog for the next one. This is another reason why it is critical to follow a program like this, it helps minimize confusion as the dog is prepared for each step as it moves through the program. Skipping around is completely counter productive. The SmartWorks flow chart is very similar, but not identical.

Your 11 week old pup is very young and you don't have to decide what to do right now. It is good that you are asking questions.

I suggest that you buy Lardy's training article compilation or SmartWorks Vol. 1 and start reading them right away. If you don't think they are logical or if you think they are too harsh or not fair to the dog or whatever you can always begin formal training with different material but at least you will be more informed about the various training methodology/philosophies. Lardy's article compilations (you just need the first volume to get going) reads like a book and the articles are organized to follow the flow chart that someone posted and it isn't expensive like the DVD's are. The material is excellent and inexpensive. The same is true of Smartworks Vol.1 and Smart Fetch. If you decide to buy in to one of those programs then you can invest money in DVD's. This is truly the golden age of retriever training in my opinion. Never before has so much good training information been available and never before have training tools been so effective and widely available. I wish this stuff was available when I was beginning to train my first retriever.

One other thing that I would add. I think maybe you have been given the impression that conventional Carr-based retriever training with e-collars is somehow brutal, mean, unfair, etc. I could not disagree more, and to illustrate that point just a little I'll share a few things that really struck me. When I got the original Lardy DVD's (I haven't seen the revised ones) I was STRUCK by how much he talked about being fair to the dog and what is and isn't fair to the dog. Here he is, the absolute guru of retriever training, I mean the original DVD's were made when he was in his absolute heyday and was pretty much recognized as the MAN and I was expecting to be blown away with a lot of "how to" and certainly there was plenty of that, but the emphasis on fairness to the dog caught me off guard and I was impressed by it. He didn't get his dogs performing at a National Championship level by being unfair, confusing them, beating them down, intimidating them, etc. All of that stuff backfires badly and is counter productive.

When my current dog was only weeks old I attended a 2 or 3 day Evan Graham seminar (author of Smart Works) and again I was surprised by how much time was allocated to talking about being fair to the dog, what is fair, what isn't, etc.

I think both Lardy and Graham (both e-collar proponents) stated that the correct amount of collar pressure in a particular situation is the least amount of stimulation (correction, electricity, call it what you want) that will elicit the desired response. In other words the least amount of correction that will change the dog's behavior. Fairness is a theme that runs all through both of those training programs.

When my dog was in late transition (after TT, swim by, pattern blinds, etc.) I ran out of time to train him and I wound up sending him to a pro for a few months. When talking to the pro (he uses methodology similar to Lardy as most do, e-collar, etc.) I was explaining that my dog is pretty sensitive and he told me that he likes sensitive dogs because you don't have to be rough on them. He said there is the occasional hard case that only responds to a high level of correction, hard headed dogs who challenge your authority, etc., and said "I don't get up in the morning and say oh, goody I get to burn a dog today."

I hope all of that makes a little bit of sense. Conventional retriever trainers (FF, e-collar, etc.) are not ogres, at least not the effective trainers and you would be amazed at the attitude displayed by most of their client dogs. You don't get that attitude by being unfair or unneccessarily harsh to your dogs. When executed properly conventional "American" methods produce some really confident, stylish dogs.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

EDIT: There are people on this thread who are far more qualified to explain the virtues of conventional retriever training methodology than I am, but most of them are content to talk about beavers. Oh well, at least they are entertaining.


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

Thanks for the info Huntin dawg. Its not that I have anything against using an E-collar at all, I've used them before with my dad in training, even CC some dogs for buddies of mine. Its simply right now I don't have one, my dad's ol innotect died on us after owning it for I know 8 years. And was looking for a good way to train a good duck dog with out having to make the invest in another right now. But with the promise this little gal is showing me about taking to her obedance training and loving to retrieve I think we are gonna swing that investment even if its only on like the tri tronics G3 I think it is. Cause I think there is to much potiental talent not to atleast try to get some HT tittles. I've also liked Lardy's and Evan's programs but until now I wasn't really looking for a HT or FT dog.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

hfsDogs said:


> Thanks for the info Huntin dawg. Its not that I have anything against using an E-collar at all, I've used them before with my dad in training, even CC some dogs for buddies of mine. Its simply right now I don't have one, my dad's ol innotect died on us after owning it for I know 8 years. And was looking for a good way to train a good duck dog with out having to make the invest in another right now. But with the promise this little gal is showing me about taking to her obedance training and loving to retrieve I think we are gonna swing that investment even if its only on like the tri tronics G3 I think it is. Cause I think there is to much potiental talent not to atleast try to get some HT tittles. I've also liked Lardy's and Evan's programs but until now I wasn't really looking for a HT or FT dog.


Well your pup is young. It probably won't be time to collar condition your pup until it is 6 months of age or more, so you don't have to pony up for the e-collar just yet.

Good luck to you and your dog. In with all the other BS I think you've gotten a little help on this thread. Be sure to take those guys up on their offer to train with them. Training with some experienced trainers who are willing to share their knowledge, expertise, training grounds, equipment and time is a lot better than just internet advice.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

hfsDogs said:


> Thanks for the info Huntin dawg. Its not that I have anything against using an E-collar at all, I've used them before with my dad in training, even CC some dogs for buddies of mine. Its simply right now I don't have one, my dad's ol innotect died on us after owning it for I know 8 years. And was looking for a good way to train a good duck dog with out having to make the invest in another right now. But with the promise this little gal is showing me about taking to her obedance training and loving to retrieve I think we are gonna swing that investment even if its only on like the tri tronics G3 I think it is. Cause I think there is to much potiental talent not to atleast try to get some HT tittles. I've also liked Lardy's and Evan's programs but until now I wasn't really looking for a HT or FT dog.


Sorry to pick on you a little bit hfs, but this is where so many people make mistakes with their dogs. They don't understand that another couple hundred for a good pedigree or the right training tools can exponentially improve the quality of your hunting dog and dog experience for 10+ years.

I hope you have the chance to join us. You will learn more in one training day than you will in 1000 interweb posts. :razz:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have an extremely well bred Beaver, comes from a great line of large teeth beavers but he just can't focus on marking trees. Stupid humping beaver....










/Paul


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I have an extremely well bred Beaver, comes from a great line of large teeth beavers but he just can't focus on marking trees. Stupid humping beaver....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that a British Beaver or an American bred Beaver??


Just askin'.....

*RK*


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

One of the downsides of trying to train Beaver's is that they are VERY sensitive and if pressured too hard they go to an extreme level of CLAMMING up! At that point training stops!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Hey Paul, It is obvious you don't take good care of your beaver. Look at the stains on his teeth. Take him to the vet for a cleaning!


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Hey Paul, It is obvious you don't take good care of your beaver. Look at the stains on his teeth. Take him to the vet for a cleaning!


It is essential that any beaver in for training must be given a high priority of care.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Gun_Dog2002*
> _I have an extremely well bred Beaver, comes from a great line of large teeth beavers but he just can't focus on marking trees. Stupid humping beaver....
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't it obvious.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Hey Paul, It is obvious you don't take good care of your beaver. Look at the stains on his teeth. Take him to the vet for a cleaning!


British beaver. Thus the yellow teeth...

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Byron Musick said:


> One of the downsides of trying to train Beaver's is that they are VERY sensitive and if pressured too hard they go to an extreme level of CLAMMING up! At that point training stops!


Bryon, you've confused a beaver with an otter. I think you need to google beaver again and closely examine the differences...

/Paul


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Bryon, you've confused a beaver with an otter. ...
> 
> /Paul


Paul, You spelled Byron wrong! 


I thought the picture was sort of funny regardless!  Futhermore it proves my point, Too much pressure on your Beaver can in fact change it into an "Otter";

Which fulfills the old saying "You Otter not put too much pressure on your Beaver, only bad things can happen".... Google up "Beaver I can't hear you" and let me know what you find!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

That beaver's got no bottom


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Byron Musick said:


> Paul, You spelled Byron wrong!
> 
> 
> I thought the picture was sort of funny regardless!  Futhermore it proves my point, Too much pressure on your Beaver can in fact change it into an "Otter";
> ...


Hey don't start getting all John Fallon on us with the spelling corrections...

I have an attack beaver and i'm not afraid to use it...

/Paul


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## BirdHntr (Apr 30, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I have an extremely well bred Beaver, comes from a great line of large teeth beavers but he just can't focus on marking trees. Stupid humping beaver....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





road kill said:


> Is that a British Beaver or an American bred Beaver??
> 
> 
> Just askin'.....
> ...





Pete said:


> Isn't it obvious.


I thought the yellow teeth were because it is a 

"Smokin' Beaver".

Carl


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Granddaddy said:


> Never trained a shaved beaver. Sounds interesing & beneficial but seems once it is shaved it must be maintained in a shaved condition to remain interesting & beneficial.


However, you can waste lots of valuable training time shaving...have you considered waxing?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

pupaloo said:


> However, you can waste lots of valuable training time shaving...have you considered waxing?


Great I mentioned this to Woody and he was so shocked he almost dropped his saw....











/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Beaver training tip of the day.....











/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Beaver training tip of the day.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Swedish Beaver? What is that? I had some youthful experiences with Brazilian beavers. They are somewhat of a rare breed here in Washington State. 

Do I have to Go Down into Eugene to see a Swedish Beaver?


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Ummmmmm. there are bunches of hairy creatures in Eugene but ya gotta be careful cause it's kinda hard to tell sometimes. Fer dang sure ain't gonna be any shaved any dang thing (particularly not beaver).

Don't pet the sweaty stuff regards

Bubba


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sometimes the little rug munchers wear a bare spot. If so, this is a good place to fix the problem.....


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Swampbilly said:


> Wow..I've never seen so much beaver talk..
> 
> A good idea might could be just to be to simply "Leave it to Beaver"



One of my favorite lines from the show. "Gee Ward you were hard on the beaver last night"


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

For your reading enjoyment. The "old" RTF! Gets really good about page 8..................-Paul


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