# Poll on What Age You Prefer to Force Fetch



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

The post about the Roux pup being force fetched at 17 weeks made me wonder about people's choice of force fetch age, and if there is a swing in thought on when to begin force fetch.... Mosly because this is not the first time I have heard of other pups being forced before they are done teething. 

I, myself, have always forced after 6 months, and a couple of times not until 10 months...based upon whether I felt the dog was ready (mentally able)..but maybe it is not so much a matter of the dog being mentally capable, as it is just teaching the dog TO be mentally capable...

Juli


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

I do FF when I think they are mentally capable of handling it. Up to that point, they have OB work, some marks, lots of birds, and CC to here.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Depends on the dog, but the last 5-6 I have done have been very soon after the adult teeth came in. Still depends on where the dog is at aththat time and how "ready" the dog is for it.


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## Fire Angel (Jan 3, 2003)

I voted for 6-7 mo, although many things can affect the age to start.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I didn't vote. I _consider_ it from the day I get them. When they're mentally ready is when I _do_ it.

In all the lab pups I've raised I've never had teething become an issue with ff. I've ff'd them before and after and teething doesn't enter my thought processes. Most labs just don't care. I did have one who had a sore mouth and didn't want to retrieve for part of his teething but he was no where ready for ff.

On an average I bet I've ff'd more of them at 7 months than at any other time.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Howard N said:


> I didn't vote. .
> 
> On an average I bet I've ff'd more of them at 7 months than at any other time.


I understand that every pup is different, and I know that to keep the 'learning' curve going, some pups might be better off ffing at 17 weeks...and some might be better off waiting til they are 8-9 months old...

which is why I put 'generally' as part of the question...becuase I am sure there are those few pups that are fully capable of being ff before 6 months.....See Howard, you really could have voted for the 6-7 month age;-)....

I am relieved to see that a majority still choose the 6 month range..but perhaps as these dogs (labs in general, I would say;-)) are bred for for the ability to train 'seriously' at younger and younger ages, we will see more and more people beginning force fetch at a younger age as well..

I do wonder if it is healthy for such young dogs to be running marks and blinds for what would appear to total several miles a day....but I am no expert on such matters....


Juli


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

I usually wait until after the adult teeth come in....most times after 6 months....but I agree that all dogs mature differntly


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Like Howard, I FF when the pup tells me it is ready. I didn't vote either. Once a pup has started to decide it does not want to obey commands it is time for FF. Teething is not a concern. When you look at what teething puppies chew on holding a bumper is not a big deal.

My wife and I have been doing early force fetch for about 10 years. We have done it successfully with a number of breeds. Lab, chessie, beagle, poodle and scottie if memory serve me. There is no sense in allowing bad habits to start when there is something you can do about it. It is also much easier FFing a 4 month old puppy verses 7-9, or older, month old dog.

Tom


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

But it doesn't sound to me like the pup being forced at 17 weeks has any problem not obeying commands....more like they just want to keep her on track training wise....

I don't neccesarily view ff as being something that is done when a dog decides to stop obeying commands (ie teenager) as much as being something that is done when the dog has reached the point in his training/maturity that force fetch would be required in order to continue training in a 'lineal' process...just so happens that it seems to occur when dogs show more inclination to be obstinate...and maybe it would be better to ff when the pup is inclined to really want to please - before 'adolesence':?:


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## FetchExpress (May 31, 2006)

For me it depends on the dog.....age has nothing to do with it...maturity does.

Just my 2 cents


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

I start looking at them when the teeth are out, 6-7 months. However I make sure they are mature enough to deal with it first so most times it ends up being more in the 8-10 month range.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Juli,



sky_view said:


> I don't neccesarily view ff as being something that is done when a dog decides to stop obeying commands (ie teenager) as much as being something that is done when the dog has reached the point in his training that force fetch would be required in order to continue training in a 'lineal' process...just so happens that it seems to occur when dogs show more inclination to be obstinate...and maybe it would be better to ff when the pup is inclined to really want to please - before 'adolesence':?:


I guess it depends. Force fetch is something we do with ALL our dogs. It is about obedience, not fetching. My wife's Scottish Terrier was FF'd before 6 months. We didn't do any other traditional retriever training with him. Force fetch is part of what I feel is basic obedience. I may have a dog some day that is not FF'd but, that will only be because I can longer do it.

There is a linerarity to the modern training program. Certain skills build on each. Force fetch is one of the cornerstones of the modern program. While many do it around a certain age. I do it based on the dogs behvior, not chronilogical age.

While you might look at it as doing it while the pup is still inclined to please you, I don't. I don't want to train a dog that doesn't want to please me. I think you could possibly do it too early. Also, a less experience trainer may not push a soft/high desire to please dog enough and not properly FF them.

Tom


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

I voted "never", because I do not understand why should I do that to my dog.

lg evelyn


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Depends on the dog! Some may be ready at 4 months, and not even close at 8, depends on the dog and the muturity level among other things!


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

I agree with those who have said that it depends on the maturity of the dog and not necessarily its age, except insofar as having the adult teeth all in. I FF'd my Sadie at about 6 months, but I (like all of you) know people who have done it both younger and older.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

hmmm, I know my wording is not best...but still...

the poll question states: *When do you 'generally' consider beginning force fetch?....*as in what is the most common age that you begin the force fetch process (hold)?

I ask this simply because I want to know if force fetch is beginning to occurr at younger ages than it has in previous yrs...

Can anyone tell me at what age ff was 'generally' started 30-40-50 yrs ago (sorry, I am not that old  )? Is it the same as today? Or are more of today's pups going through ff at a younger age?...Is this due to breeding? And if so, then is it acceptable to think that 30-40 yrs from now, force fetch will be 'generally' taught to 4 month olds vs 6-7 month olds?

It has been agreed that every dog is different...no dog is alike..... not every pup has the mental capacity or training needed to begin force fetch 'at such and such age'......etc......I am not questioning that philosophy....

Juli


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

_Evelyn_ said:


> I voted "never", because I do not understand why should I do that to my dog.
> 
> lg evelyn


Depends on what your goals are.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

To clarify something
When you refer to force fetch are you refering to ear pinch,stick and e-collar and then Fto Pile with a 4 montrh old which of course would make him around 5 months before force to pile.
Just curious. I think its awsome.
Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Evelyn
Your better off not forcing your dog especially if it is a european bred dog.
Here in the US,,,, field people breed dogs that would win . And the dogs that won generally went through a force program. And the ones that came out of that total force program came out with the right attitudes to play the game. So those dogs which had the proper temperament to play the field game were bred. So because of the road US trials went down we have produced dogs that can function well with pressure.

I have worked with european bred labs that were really nice dogs but they seemed to loose style after they were forced.

Maby its me.:razz: ,,,, but I think its because the european breeding program doesn't require a dog to do the things which are extreme and which require force. So the things you look for in your breeding program is totally different than ours. 

One nice things about the european dog is that they are easily trained by a newby,,, for the work they were bred to do.. I consider them a real gentilemans shooting dog.

So be thankful you have no need to force him.:razz:


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Pete said:


> To clarify something
> When you refer to force fetch are you refering to ear pinch,stick and e-collar and then Fto Pile with a 4 montrh old which of course would make him around 5 months before force to pile.
> Just curious. I think its awsome.
> Pete



I would consider ff - hold, ear pinch, stick fetch, and ftp with the collar...

yes, you would be correct..about 5 months before force to pile began, provided force fetch was completed in a timely fashion

Juli


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I think Pete might just be yanking our chains.


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

I'm with Howard. The pup needs to tell me when it's time to begin FF.

Force fetch is a process that begins when other training goals have been achieved. The achievement of these pre-requisits to FF is dependent upon the pup's maturity and my own time availability and committment to training.

What needs to preceed FF?
1. Ability to mark falls, retrieve in the field, including returning all the way to the handler, with enthusiams.
2. General OB - walking on a slack lead, heeling, "kennel", sits/downs, stay, strong recall,etc.
3. Obedience with physical pressure - leash correction & heeling stick correction
4. Sit in motion via heeling stick
5. E-collar conditioning - Sit, re-call, into a kennel, stay in kennel, onto/stay on platform.
6. 3 handed Casting on the FF table and 3-handed casting using platforms

When the dog can do all of the above WITH ENTHUSIASM, and has all of its adult teeth - its time to FF. If the dog is not mature enough to handle E-collar conditioning-- I'll wait as long as it takes. 

If the dog has not had an opportunity to retrieve in the field. I'll wait till he's doing that competently and happily.


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Buzz said:


> Depends on what your goals are.



for what goals you would consider FF????

I mean my male dog worked in the field, and never was treated with any FF.

My female will work in the field, and never will be treated with FF

They do everything I like, this is what I find in a labrador;-)

don´t "your" dogs work without any collars and FF?

it is just strange to me....
.........................................
I mean we have some crazy people here, they used to work with collars, and now while it is forbitten, they work with horesticks.

but really, I would never ever use a stud dog educated like this, and I would never buy a pup, when I would know the parents where treated like this.

because to who you wanna sell that dogs, if the only possiblity to train them is collar and FF.

lg evelyn


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Pete said:


> Maby its me.:razz: ,,,, but I think its because the european breeding program doesn't require a dog to do the things which are extreme and which require force. So the things you look for in your breeding program is totally different than ours.
> 
> One nice things about the european dog is that they are easily trained by a newby,,, for the work they were bred to do.. I consider them a real gentilemans shooting dog.
> 
> So be thankful you have no need to force him.:razz:


thanks Pete...

yes it is for sure like that....
I believe that all that pressure and force fetch is changing a race.

my both dogs are english lines and my male was not an easy one;-), and I never would have bred out of him.

I have seen some ff videos on your tube, and is kind of breaking a dog.
it breaks my heart as well 

are there no english dogs in the usa which are winning any field trial without any FF and collars??

I mean the us boys didn´t win the english workingtest;-) few years ago

lg evelyn


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Your welcome Evelyn
I like the european labs also. I also work with other breeds from over sea's and although they look the same their response to certain stimulous can be different. Lets just say they are generally of the softer type of temperament for lack of my lack of communication skills. But you can say that about any breed reguardless of origin. For instance; lets take a Rottie or Bouvie' ,,,even if they have been bred in the US for generations ,,,they still don't force well as a general rule. They can get piggy and a little ugly but that has to do with their general temperament which was and is shaped by years of breeding.

Although you can get some that have a great attitude through and after Force ,,, in my fairly limited experience with over sea breedings its not the norm. All it means is there breeding program did not have one care about how it came out of some type of force program,,,because there were none. Winning had nothing to do with how complete the force program was. When mouth work is forced it is done on a back tie with 2 leashes . There is No stiking and no e-collar. But then again if you pinch the ear of a 120 pound,,2 year old Rottie it wont be the training buck he reaches for. It is so much less stressfull than the "ear pinch / whip /e-collar that the retrievers go through. But the priciples are identical. Here is a good example ,,,see now I am brain storming

I am Bi___ :razz: I play around with protection dogs and train with some of the people that are of that ilk. Almost all the dogs there are from eastern europe. They are genetically suited for that type of work. Naturally good bites, good drives,, stable and not nervey.. But many of the US dogs there don't have a naturally good bite(deep in the mouth ) and can get a little nervy during training. But yes there are some good US dogs. There is always exceptions when genetics are a factor.

So like it is with the same breeds who have gone down a different path of breeding. The vesatile breeds seem the same way.

The US field trial game is a game where a good force program is essential. The european field trial game is not a game where force is used at least not the extent that we use it here.

I like working with American field dogs because you could push them to extremes just like I like the european protection dogs because of the same reason. Its fun when a dog wants to work and have the ability for extremes.

This is just my opinion shaped by my experiences,,others probably have a whole lot more dealings with this and could offer a totaly different view. but its stuff I think about. 

Here is a link I hope it works.

I doubt if you could find very many US Protection dogs to do it like these dogs do it. These would be considered the field trial dogs of the protection game. Most people don't dont need them but some people do. Its because of their temperament that enables them to do this kind of work along with natural abilities (but then again i'm sure thats another subject for discussion.)which are tied in with the definition of temperament.

http://www.guzer.com/videos/highlytraineddogs.php


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## greg ye (Nov 28, 2007)

_Evelyn_ said:


> thanks Pete...
> 
> yes it is for sure like that....
> I believe that all that pressure and force fetch is changing a race.
> ...


It's hard to let this thought process slide! As I am aware, there is no need to force fetch nor collar condition an American Dog. Our dogs, with proper socialization as a pup to a hunting environment, are every bit the natural hunters as any European Retriever and can be trained with any process an owner may choose.

Americans have developed a comprehensive training program that yields results far quicker and with far more precision than our counterparts abroad while mentoring dogs with tons of vigor or not. To suggest that our dogs would not do well with European Methods is a misnomer. I was fortunate to have a fairly well known English trainer visit our kennel. I was very impressed by his patience, low-key methods and results. As a paying customer, I would not have been impressed with the cost to build even a modest hunting dog.

And yes, we can manage a thundering machine with huge water entry and bold animation, but are we changing a race? These same dogs, I suggest, have the mental capacity to flourish under any thoughtful training process.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pete said:


> Evelyn
> Your better off not forcing your dog especially if it is a european bred dog.
> Here in the US,,,, field people breed dogs that would win . And the dogs that won generally went through a force program. And the ones that came out of that total force program came out with the right attitudes to play the game. So those dogs which had the proper temperament to play the field game were bred. So because of the road US trials went down we have produced dogs that can function well with pressure.
> 
> ...


Pete, with all due respect I've trained both style bred dogs. Frankly the difference I've seen is demonstrated in the physical behavior of the dogs. US field bred dogs are more active and into things. British dogs are more laid back. What I have also noted is that US field bred are more willing to allow the handler to be the "pack leader" vs British dogs that are in my experience more passive aggressive and less likely to follow a "pack leader." Either way, when you exert your will on a dog, you are in fact "forcing" the dog and putting "pressure" on the dog. I think you might find some of the dog behavioral writings interesting. Their is certainly a difference in their behavior but frankly I still believe that FF them both make them a better dog as it gives them the tools handle whatever work, and style of work I put in front of them.

/Paul


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Greg and Paul 
Yes of course thats correct also.
You dont have to FF an american lab to be a good hunting dog. 
But if you are running field trials you need a dog that can handle that type of program because what is being asked of the dogs are an awfull lot. So we quickly try to move through a program here.
And Greg yes if I sent my dog to a pro I would want him to use the fastest techniques to bring the price down for me.

And of course the dogs in question are indeed being bred differently.
We dont breed the pigs very often here. We breed the dogs who run nice and handle pressure and are still enthusiastic. They are not a seperate breed but I believe the temperaments in europe are uniform to comply with their games and the temperament here for our field trial dogs are kind of uniform for our games. Now that if you believe that "soft" "hard "sensitive " are part of a dogs temperament.
I do and someday maby there will be a temperament thread on here so I could make a fool out of myself:razz:



You have no way of knowing which dogs respond to force well over sees because they dont force much or use the e collar.

So I think you have just added to what I tried to say and not contradict it. But I'm glad you guys chimed in because you both can add a different point of view backed by experience.

But in reality I dont see a contradiction only another way of saying something.
Its like the Gospels
4 different guys viewed the same experience but gave different input and none of it contradicted the other. Pretty cool


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know that you can really put an age on the FF process. To me it seems like we put to much stress on when to do it rather than looking at why we do it. To me FF is no different than teaching basics with a choke chain and heeling stick. The purpose is what we should focus on and the process it which we do it. All we are doing is teaching the dog how to react to pressure. Whether its the choke chain, healing stick, ear pinch, or CC. So imo if you have been through basics and feel that youre dog has a firm grasp on how to react to pressure then you are ready to move into FF.

Just my 2cents

Jon


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

I have a question.

How many of you CC before FF? I have seen alot of comments on this thread that seem to be that some are FF after CC. If you are I was wondering what the thoery is behind it. Just curious because I have always CC last in my force program.

Thanks,

Jon


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

@pete, greg, paul

thanks for your friendly way of discus things

lg evelyn


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## _Evelyn_ (Mar 7, 2008)

Pete said:


> http://www.guzer.com/videos/highlytraineddogs.php


:shock::shock:

it was real fun to watch it, thanks...
but for me this dogs don´t have a clear brain anymore...
and for sure they would not pass any test, because here they have to let the "prey" ;-) go, after a command

lg evelyn


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