# Puppy Pricing



## Langeandrew12 (Jan 5, 2015)

I wanted to get some opinions on how breeders determine puppy prices. I've seen some pups out out AFC-NFC dogs for $1,200 and some for $2,000. Just an example. My guess is titles, deep pedigree, breeder reputation, etc. How do you determine the price of your puppies?


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## Langeandrew12 (Jan 5, 2015)

FC AFC I mean.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

And I've seen pups out of HT titles for $1500....I'd also like to know. Does color make any difference in price?


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

The price of the *majority* of puppies is set by the consumer; not the seller. If the market will bear it, then they will price accordingly.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Cost does have an impact. Frozen/AI and such are not free, tend to result in smaller litters and since the breeder is trying not to lose too much money on the deal, it affects the price.

At the end of the day, though, it is based on what the breeder thinks they can get.

You really don't want the see the prices on the litters you will never get to see


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## nolefan (Oct 27, 2012)

Free market. There's a lot that goes into it if you think about what a really dedicated hobby breeder goes through. Hopefully he or she isn't just a puppy farmer raising dogs like livestock. (That's how I feel about it anyway) Health clearances are hopefully being done. Not cheap. Someone who is keeping a puppy for themselves and selling the rest of the litter needs the money to fund the continuation of raising and training the next generation in an expensive sport. The chances of an emergency c section or special medical attention for puppies require a fund. If they travel to take a look at a potential sire for a litter, have to take time off work to have a natural breeding or to whelp a litter. (I'm not a breeder but every whelping story I hear from friends seems to involved ungodly midnight hours and often a puppy who requires special attention). And then there's never a guarantee that time and effort and money is spent and the bitch ends up not pregnant. Or a virus or bacteria gets the bitch or they lose her or the entire litter. Good breeders put a lot of time and heart into their puppies. Everyone says breeding isn't for the faint of heart and the support of a really good breeder for the life of the dog is worth every penny to me. I don't think anyone is getting rich off of selling puppies with high quality pedigrees, titles and clearances behind them, but I suppose I could be wrong


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## casjoker (Dec 22, 2016)

Breeder rep and pedigree have always been the major factors in my dog purchases, price was a lesser concern. Market seems to dictate the price for quality puppies.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DoubleHaul said:


> Cost does have an impact. Frozen/AI and such are not free, tend to result in smaller litters and since the breeder is trying not to lose too much money on the deal, it affects the price.
> 
> At the end of the day, though, it is based on what the breeder thinks they can get.
> *
> You really don't want the see the prices on the litters you will never get to see*





You mean the "...if you have to ask you can't afford it litter .." or the "..If you have to ask, you must not be on the A list .."


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

BonMallari said:


> You mean the "...if you have to ask you can't afford it litter .." or the "..If you have to ask, you must not be on the A list .."


Bon, I'll never make the A list (or even get a peek at it) but I would love to know what those pups go for. Can you shed some light?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

FC/AFC Male to FC/AFC Female: 3500 - 5000
FC/AFC Male to NFC or NAFC Female: 5000-10,000


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Dave Farrar said:


> Bon, I'll never make the A list (or even get a peek at it) but I would love to know what those pups go for. Can you shed some light?


You're asking the wrong guy...But I can tell a somewhat amusing story about both my statetments

Years ago when my brother was looking to get back in the game after establishing his medical practice, he went to a FT in the NW along with his wife. There happened to be a RHOF promoting his new litter sired by his NFC dog...Clint politely asked "how much are you asking for the pups?" 
the response was "...you can't afford them." The RHOF obviously didn't know who Clint was or that he was financially able to purchase a pup, but it is typical of the "good ole boys network" that existed for the longest time..

2nd story : when Lanse was breeding FC AFC World Famous Rosa Barks to NFC Willie, I had numerous people inquire about getting on the "list" for pups, which I had nothing to do with, Lanse and I found it quite amusing, since he already knew who he had promised pups to..Ironically she only had a singleton pup in Lee, who now resides with my brother in Idaho and jammed his first Open this past spring...



Ted Shih said:


> FC/AFC Male to FC/AFC Female: 3500 - 5000
> FC/AFC Male to NFC or NAFC Female: 5000-10,000



about as accurate as I would have thought



IMO ,its more than what the market will bear...It has a lot to do with who the breeder or seller and their reputation in the FT/HT game...for example someone like Ms Howley will be able to command premium price for her litters based on her proven track record, whereas many first time breeders expect the titled reputation of the sire to carry and warrant premium price for their litter, to an untitled of lightly campaigned female


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## Erik W (Mar 27, 2015)

As a buyer, I look at pedigree, breeder location, gender and markings. I like to be able to see the pup & parent. If I like the pup, I'll pay the price.


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## waller1 (Aug 8, 2010)

Erik W said:


> As a buyer, I look at pedigree, breeder location, gender and markings. I like to be able to see the pup & parent. If I like the pup, I'll pay the price.


Erik W, you have a great name...


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## Jim Rencher (Jan 2, 2017)

Well I am far from an A-Lister but from what I have found the average Amateur trainer or Hunt Test guy sometimes won't call the big timers to discuss litters, I have seen an 
NFC x FC AFC litter sell for less than a FC x SH litter and several FC AFC x MH litters sell for the same or less than an HRCH x HRCH litter. 

I think at times it comes down to litter size and stud fees and also how fast the breeder wants to move the puppies. 
However unfortunately I also see "breeders" run out and throw an SHR or JH on a bitch, breed her to a nice stud and ask ridiculous prices for the puppies.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> FC/AFC Male to FC/AFC Female: 3500 - 5000
> FC/AFC Male to NFC or NAFC Female: 5000-10,000



I did not pay anywhere near that. but Raven's mother made her AFC after she was born her sire was NFC, and another pup I paid $1500 FC/AFC x FC cross, shop, and be ready to buy when what you want becomes available.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> I did not pay anywhere near that. but Raven's mother made her AFC after she was born her sire was NFC, and another pup I paid $1500 FC/AFC x FC cross, shop, and be ready to buy when what you want becomes available.



Good luck paying $1500 for a FC/AFC male to a FC/AFC bitch in today's puppy market.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

There are some good thoughts in this thread,and it couldn't have come at a better time. I have a litter due this weekend and have been bouncing around on pricing,was going to wait until whelping to set price based on litter size. It's an Fc x QAA/hrch. Had a litter last year same breeding prior to her being qualified and moved pups at 1200 with no problem. Everyone liked the pups so much I repeated the breeding and have been undecided on going to 1500 or reaching higher to 1750 or simply staying lower.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

BrettG said:


> There are some good thoughts in this thread,and it couldn't have come at a better time. I have a litter due this weekend and have been bouncing around on pricing,was going to wait until whelping to set price based on litter size. It's an Fc x QAA/hrch. Had a litter last year same breeding prior to her being qualified and moved pups at 1200 with no problem. Everyone liked the pups so much I repeated the breeding and have been undecided on going to 1500 or reaching higher to 1750 or simply staying lower.


Depends on your goals, I have always somewhat underpriced my litters, as my goal was to produce a pup for myself, and want to get really quality homes for the others. This has allowed people, especially hunters, to be able to afford a higher quality breeding. My main satisfaction is hearing people tell me how much they love their pups, and come back to me when they want another pup. I am just planning a breeding for this year and already have a couple people contact me for pups before I even made it "known" I was breeding again. I cover my costs and pocket a little, but we all know we do not really make any money breeding. Especially if you count your time/expenses in training, its a hobby not a business and we enjoy it.

As far as breeding and pedigrees, I would rather breed to the sire of the NFC, if that NFC does not have a track record of producing yet. When I bred to Abe in late 1998, Eba had just won the National. Of course he became the "flavor of the month" as the new NFC, I bred to his daddy who actually had a less expensive stud fee than Eba. I always thought that was odd as I thought the "proven producer" would be worth more. Just the way I look at things, my question for the top performers is..... "Who's you daddy???"


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Don't forget the intangibles like, some people are just better at marketing and/or are more likeable so are more easily able to get higher prices, even for lesser litters. We all know that high volume breeder with the slick website breeding many litters of puppies from relatively undistinguished parents that are able to command higher prices than the occasional breeder who does have a quality female thoughtfully bred to a superior male. This is because the high volume breeder is more experienced at telling people what they want to hear.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

NateB said:


> Depends on your goals, I have always somewhat underpriced my litters, as my goal was to produce a pup for myself, and want to get really quality homes for the others. This has allowed people, especially hunters, to be able to afford a higher quality breeding. My main satisfaction is hearing people tell me how much they love their pups, and come back to me when they want another pup. I am just planning a breeding for this year and already have a couple people contact me for pups before I even made it "known" I was breeding again. I cover my costs and pocket a little, but we all know we do not really make any money breeding. Especially if you count your time/expenses in training, its a hobby not a business and we enjoy it.
> 
> 
> As far as breeding and pedigrees, I would rather breed to the sire of the NFC, if that NFC does not have a track record of producing yet. When I bred to Abe in late 1998, Eba had just won the National. Of course he became the "flavor of the month" as the new NFC, I bred to his daddy who actually had a less expensive stud fee than Eba. I always thought that was odd as I thought the "proven producer" would be worth more. Just the way I look at things, my question for the top performers is..... "Who's you daddy???"


This post nailed it! Only thing would ad the female IMHO many times are over looked. They breed a bitch with relatively weak pedigree to FC and expect top dollar. I was told and always remember "it's the bitch to look at". Also I look deep into the bitch line, I would rather have a pup out of a MH bitch with deep pedigree than a FC bitch who was the only "rock star" in three generations of her line.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

From what I know which isn't much, base price seems to be set by the Stud fee, Ex; FC AFC stud A (few breedings)=$1500, pups sold for ~same. FC AFC stud B (popular at the time)= (a ton of breedings eventually became NAFC)= $2500, think it went up after the NAFC pups sold or were at least initially priced for same. FC AFC stud-Deceased known to be good producer=$3500-$5000, usually only a few of vials released a year (if there's stock). In all cases the stud owners might be highly particular or not, pricing of stud fee can be determined on what the girl brings to the table. This fee is usually well reflected in the price of any particular litter, general starting point if you will.

Now if were talking an FC AFC NAFC etc. Female; the price is whatever the owner decides he-she wants, if there are enough pups to get it released to the open market at all, might be well above $10,000. Still most will go to a list the girls owner has had in the wings for a long time, first 2 pups will almost always be female's owner and stud owner. Remaining might be highly priced, even on the A-list, but some will almost be free or traded to particular people, for a return later; sometimes depending on litter size the girls owner will simply keep the entire litter, train up and sell later (started dogs that might a great deals or incredibly expensive depending). Really depends on the priorities of the bitches owner, any particular FC-AFC female will not have many litters and who knows how many puppies will be in such litters (they are usually small); most owners of such girls tend to keep it so, the pups will be placed to get the best chance to succeed and work it so they can have access to their lines later. A lot of horse trading etc. I sell you one at this price, and you sell me one for the same price later.


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## Langeandrew12 (Jan 5, 2015)

How about Pricing when you see a JH title compared to a MH title on breeders. From sire and dam.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

If you throw enough money at something it makes it expensive . It doesn't always make it work.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Langeandrew12 said:


> How about Pricing when you see a JH title compared to a MH title on breeders. From sire and dam.



You got someone breeding a JH run from it. Think about it, you have a bitch that can do a single, that's breeding stock? Think.


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

There are several litters that the owner of the (titled and highly coveted) bitch keeps all the puppies and puts them with their pro and NOBODY gets a shot at the pups. No matter how much they're willing to pay.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

BonMallari, Hunt'EmUP, Polmaise and now Kajun Kamakazi have got it right. I know people who will NEVER sell to certain people and it has nothing to do with money. 

I think your reputation , friendship, proven ethical behavior, dog contributions (club-breed) , willingness to help others impact the price if any.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Situation right now, people desperate for a puppy of a certain bloodline, found one 12 hours RT, paid $1500, very lean on health certs even on the stud, in fact maybe no vet exam, because they brought the puppy home and there is something wrong... it can't see. What someone charges may have nothing to do with how good a puppy is. In fact, the trend is for unscrupulous breeders or down right puppy mills is charging more than a good breeder. People desperate for a puppy do zero research other than google. Learn what health certs are essential and learn how to look them up and be patient. I have a section on my website on what to look for and what should be red flagged. Rainmaker has written a similar article. Price is dictated by supply and demand, the reputation of the breeder, and knowing what you want and how impatient you are to buy into hype. FYI, FTlers buy from FTlers with FT titled females or occasionally MH/QAA females from a strong pedigree that they have seen run in competition. They can sell those pups for whatever they want and they do. Breeding a JH to a National field champion does not necessarily give you a dog capable of running field trials. Be prepared to do research and wait for the right breeding to come along. In addition, find out how much it costs to run field trials and analyze whether you have the disposable income to do that, or would you be satisfied with a dog you can hunt and compete in HT that was healthy, well bred, and has all applicable health certs. Know what you need. There are people who breed good dogs that want a puppy for themselves and will sell the rest of the litter reasonably. Call them up. I looked for many of my dogs for almost 3 years, and some just up and were there one morning and I pounced. Become educated, talk to a lot of people, ask the right questions, and not require spoon feeding. Many sales are based on ignorance, hype, and being told what they want to hear instead of research.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Kajun Kamakazi said:


> There are several litters that the owner of the (titled and highly coveted) bitch keeps all the puppies and puts them with their pro and NOBODY gets a shot at the pups. No matter how much they're willing to pay.


Seen many litters like this as well. Heck I don't even have one of those types of females but I didn't announce nor sell a single pup from my girls final litter; kept them all close with friends that will run and hunt them. Very rare for particular bitch owners to put feelers out or even put up an official waiting list, until they know what they have; might take 3-4yrs after the pups are on the ground for them to even consider placing them. I can name a few FC AFCs, and NAFC bitch owners who kept every single pup out of their litters, and were still pretty disappointed that they had to offer the stud a pick pup for the pairing. Of course then there's those lucky few who get a call late at night, perhaps a bitch's owner has been drinking, but all of the sudden they have a new pup in their dog box, even if they had WAY too many dogs and were in NO WAY looking; also won't tell you what they paid for this new addition, but whatever it was they were happy to pay it. .

On the JH vs. MH pricing, for me it completely depends on the particular female, particular dogs. There are some highly titled dogs I would never consider a pup from, and untitled dogs that I'd be on a waiting list for. Price-wise I'd consider any (Labrador) with full health clearances and "real" kennel club (AKC-UKC) papers to be very fairly priced at ~$800-$1000, every once in awhile you can luck into something lower. But oftentimes $1000 can be hard to find. For instance couple of months ago I couldn't find any litters (in a particular 400-600 mile geographical area), under $2000 period. Finally found one for $1400, after multiple calls to many connections, all over the western sea-board. Strange thing was that the $1400 had much better papers, both parents titled, all OFA numbers listed, heck they even published the "official" dog names for everyone to see. Whereas many of the breeders that wanted $2000+, with really nice easy to find websites, just had AKC "health tested" labs; no OFA #, no official dog names, were listed of "champion bloodlines", but no pedigree link nor any way to look items up. Yet they had people on waiting lists ready to buy them, even had the friend; who was looking ready to put down a deposit, until they called up for us to check on it and we smacked them in the back of the head .


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> You got someone breeding a JH run from it. Think about it, you have a bitch that can do a single, that's breeding stock? Think.


Ask more questions, for sure, but wouldn't always run. If the breeder thinks that the JH is the reason said bitch is worth breeding, then I would probably run. However it could be a very well bred bitch with some good reasons for breeding her that have nothing to do with that one title. I'd probably want to know the breeder and bitch well.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

I was looking to buy a pup. As I was looking and finding some desirable litters but we're in another state. The cost to get the pup to me was considerable. Things as, having it shipped, in that case you don't get to see the dog before buying. The cost of vet certificate, travel kennel, shipping cost, breeders shipper fee. Or flying out to get the pup cost of flight, travel kennel, pup flight fee. Or driving to another state to pick up pup. Fuel expense, motel, extra time, then if you get there and may not be impressed with the pup. All those costs add up, quick. Finding a local breeder that produces nice dogs from nice stock at a fair price is a good way to go. They don't have the overhead and price fair. The one thing that most people don't think of is the cost of training it takes that make those titled dogs. They just don't pop out champions.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Brokengunz said:


> The one thing that most people don't think of is the cost of training it takes that make those titled dogs. They just don't pop out champions.


​Over the course of a career, the initial cost of a puppy can be relatively insignificant.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Something to consider. A dog's accomplishments are certainly important and those accomplishments are what makes a dog "breeding stock."

But their genetic makeup is the same whether they accomplish great things or just a JH.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Really depends on the priorities of the bitches owner, any particular FC-AFC female will not have many litters and who knows how many puppies will be in such litters (they are usually small); most owners of such girls tend to keep it so, the pups will be placed to get the best chance to succeed and work it so they can have access to their lines later. A lot of horse trading etc. I sell you one at this price, and you sell me one for the same price later.



What any particular breeder may do will vary. I don't know much, if anything, about how hunt test dogs are bred, marketed etc. 

When looking for a pup, I focus most of my attention on the bitch. Good bitches tend to find good sires.

I have gotten good pups from my trainer who knew and trained the bitch:

FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie
FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power

I have gotten good pups because I saw a bitch, when she was young, and asked the owner to think of me, when she bred the bitch

FC/AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator
AFC Freeridin Maserati

Both from Judy Aycock's FC/AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine (who I competed against in the Derby)

Some because I heard of a repeat breeding of a good litter

FC/AFC Freeridin Miss Kitty

Freeridin RHD (born in April 2016) sibling of FC Mudslinger's Amazing Vision

I am constantly on the lookout for nice young females. Whenever I identify one, I ask the breeder to keep me in mind if they ever decide to breed their girl. 

With respect to the people that I know who breed their girls (including me)

1. Relationships matter
2. The breeders want their puppies to go to good homes
3. The breeders want their puppies to go to competitive homes
4. The breeders want to cover costs
5. Making some money is not bad, either

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Lash said:


> Something to consider. A dog's accomplishments are certainly important and those accomplishments are what makes a dog "breeding stock."
> 
> But their genetic makeup is the same whether they accomplish great things or just a JH.



Not sure I agree. I have seen some superstars and some duds from the same litter


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

John Lash said:


> Something to consider. A dog's accomplishments are certainly important and those accomplishments are what makes a dog "breeding stock."
> 
> But their genetic makeup is the same whether they accomplish great things or just a JH.


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What if the JR titled dog is AMMO's sister?


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Not sure I agree. I have seen some superstars and some duds from the same litter


Not that they will all be superstars, but that the genetic makeup is the same. They should have the same chance of passing these genetic traits on to the next generation.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I know people who pay $300 a month for their smart phone and TV bills. 
What is 10 or 15 years with a good dog worth?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

If a dog wins a National his, her genetic contribution is the same as if he, she never ran a trial.

They would get more consideration and rightly so, but their contribution doesn't change.

Obviously it's not as simple as breeding the most highly titled to the most highly titled.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

ZEKESMAN said:


> Not that they will all be superstars, but that the genetic makeup is the same. They should have the same chance of passing these genetic traits on to the next generation.



Just because they come from the same litter does not mean that their genetic composition is identical.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

ZEKESMAN said:


> Not that they will all be superstars, but that the genetic makeup is the same. They should have the same chance of passing these genetic traits on to the next generation.


 Think brothers and sister; are they all the same because they have the same parents? No the genetic make up is different. Even cloned dogs aren't the same.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Not saying the genetic make up of the pups are the same.

I'm saying the genetic makeup of the sire and dam are the same regardless of their accomplishments.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Lash said:


> Something to consider. A dog's accomplishments are certainly important and those accomplishments are what makes a dog "breeding stock."
> 
> But their genetic makeup is the same whether they accomplish great things or just a JH.


​This statement would seem to differ


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Think brothers and sister; are they all the same because they have the same parents? No the genetic make up is different. Even cloned dogs aren't the same.


Bit of a Lottery when choosing a Pup from a litter then. Even Bigger odds on repeat matings and popular Sires' being used just increases the odds .........of 'having a pup'


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Originally Posted by *John Lash*  

Something to consider. A dog's accomplishments are certainly important and those accomplishments are what makes a dog "breeding stock."

But that dog's genetic makeup is the same whether they accomplish great things or just a JH.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Langeandrew12 said:


> How about Pricing when you see a JH title compared to a MH title on breeders. From sire and dam.


I have one of those, MHXJH who is now a FC-AFC and NARC finalist. It can happen. Think I paid $600.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

John Lash said:


> Originally Posted by *John Lash*
> 
> Something to consider. A dog's accomplishments are certainly important and those accomplishments are what makes a dog "breeding stock."
> 
> But that dog's genetic makeup is the same whether they accomplish great things or just a JH.


Or sit on the porch .
So with regard to puppy pricing the purchaser would either pay the piper or Not. 
It would also depend on how those pipes are being played and who is playing them ..Some just want a dawg...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

wetdog said:


> I have one of those, MHXJH who is now a FC-AFC and NARC finalist. It can happen. Think I paid $600.


Well, there were some different "circumstances" there but the pedigree was the real deal, and that's sometimes what happens.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Well, there were some different "circumstances" there but the pedigree was the real deal, and that's sometimes what happens.


I think that is what we are trying to say. The pedigree is the real deal on the AFC, NFC. etc as it is on their siblings. Perhaps these siblings went to non competative homes. Perhaps these siblings had injuries or home troubles and were not able to achieve their full potential. In the animal world, these would be considered breeding worthy. Not so in the retriever world it seems. Vic


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

ZEKESMAN said:


> I think that is what we are trying to say. The pedigree is the real deal on the AFC, NFC. etc as it is on their siblings. Perhaps these siblings went to non competative homes. Perhaps these siblings had injuries or home troubles and were not able to achieve their full potential. In the animal world, these would be considered breeding worthy. Not so in the retriever world it seems. Vic


Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps .... 

If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets

It is a hard thing to find a competitive dog. I am not saying that the JH that is a littermate to the FC/AFC has no breeding value - as you allege. 

I am saying that:
1. The FC/AFC and JH are not genetically identical
2. If I am going to invest my time and money in a puppy, I prefer the litter from the FC/AFC bitch

You get to spend your time and money however you wish 

Ted


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

ZEKESMAN said:


> This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What if the JR titled dog is AMMO's sister?


I had been a bear hunter for years and regards to pups/breeding I would much rather have a puppy from a fairly good bitch who was out of a line/litter which all the dogs made good dogs, than a puppy from the only "rock star" in the litter. Correct if I am wrong, what have Ammo's littermates accomplished? Anything close to what Ammo has done?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

wetdog said:


> I have one of those, MHXJH who is now a FC-AFC and NARC finalist. It can happen. Think I paid $600.


David congratulations to you on your accomplishments with your MH X JH. 
I have been following you two with great pride

I happened to own your dogs sire and sold him to Roger when he was 6 yrs old.

Rascal may have only been a QAA MH but he was an awful nice dog, who has proven to throw some real nice pups.
Would love to meet you and your dog some day

Congratulations again and keep up the good work!!


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps ....
> 
> If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets
> 
> ...


Ted, I am not trying to influence your puppy buying habits. I don't think that is possible, at least not from someone like me. We live in very different tax brackets. I assume the Op lives closer to mine than yours. I am just trying to point out that a nice pup can be had if you look at relatives, i.e pedigrees of parents and grand parents to the NAFC's. These pups may never become FC's but will be nice dogs for us mere mortals. We just hunt and run HT's. The dogs from litter mates to rock stars show me that they are biddable, trainable, and have desire. Perhaps not what their litter mate the rock star had but enough for me. I see posts and hear stories about my pup from FC xyz is 10 months old and won't retrieve. All my pups from lesser stock have retrieved everything I have shot over them. Vic


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

ZEKESMAN said:


> Ted, I am not trying to influence your puppy buying habits. I don't think that is possible, at least not from someone like me. We live in very different tax brackets. I assume the Op lives closer to mine than yours. I am just trying to point out that a nice pup can be had if you look at relatives, i.e pedigrees of parents and grand parents to the NAFC's. These pups may never become FC's but will be nice dogs for us mere mortals. We just hunt and run HT's. The dogs from litter mates to rock stars show me that they are biddable, trainable, and have desire. Perhaps not what their litter mate the rock star had but enough for me. I see posts and hear stories about my pup from FC xyz is 10 months old and won't retrieve. All my pups from lesser stock have retrieved everything I have shot over them. Vic



I would certainly be in your tax bracket, and I did not brake the bank with my dogs and they are out of some pretty good stuff, NFC, FC, and AFC, they have done more than just "retrieved everything I have ever shot" heck got a German Shorthair which will do that, retrieving hunting shot birds is NOTHING what the FT dog must do. The reason I bought what I did because I am not Mike Lardy, need a dog that can handle all my mistakes and never quit, I get this with NFC,FC bred dogs. Some very good people with a ton of knowledge produce these pups, I am forever grateful to the FT folks that although we have different tax brackets they sell dogs to me and I am far from "A-List"!


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> I had been a bear hunter for years and regards to pups/breeding I would much rather have a puppy from a fairly good bitch who was out of a line/litter which all the dogs made good dogs, than a puppy from the only "rock star" in the litter. Correct if I am wrong, what have Ammo's littermates accomplished? Anything close to what Ammo has done?


You may want to look at a thread on RTF titled Roux X Tyra pups. There may be a reason everyone was excited everytime these dogs had a litter. People clamored for pups. Also look at a few bitch lines for dogs like AMMO and Lean Mac. Pretty weak on the bitch line, for someone like Ted. Most of us would be happy to say we had owned a pup out of a litter like these. And in regards to your bear hunter comment, are there AFC hounds you are talking about or dogs you saw or heard about running game. I think on the most part we would like what we saw and heard about Roux X Tyra pups. I agree with that. I also buy dogs out of FC's, but if I see a good litter from an FC's litter mate bred to a male QAA or MH I will take this pup as like Ted I like strong bitch lines. I just can't afford as nice of ones as he does. Vic


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

ZEKESMAN said:


> You may want to look at a thread on RTF titled Roux X Tyra pups. There may be a reason everyone was excited everytime these dogs had a litter. People clamored for pups. Also look at a few bitch lines for dogs like AMMO and Lean Mac. Pretty weak on the bitch line, for someone like Ted. Most of us would be happy to say we had owned a pup out of a litter like these. And in regards to your bear hunter comment, are there AFC hounds you are talking about or dogs you saw or heard about running game. I think on the most part we would like what we saw and heard about Roux X Tyra pups. I agree with that. I also buy dogs out of FC's, but if I see a good litter from an FC's litter mate bred to a male QAA or MH I will take this pup as like Ted I like strong bitch lines. I just can't afford as nice of ones as he does. Vic



Look at the bitch line on my dogs, hardly call that weak and I am not rich. Scooters mother littermate to NAFC Tubb, Ranger speaks for himself as does Boo, and John's Hurry dog, Raven's mother. It was John who told me too may face when I first got into retrievers...."it's the bitchline Todd".I listened to him. As to Ammo's weak bitch line as stated, what has her littermates done, and will see if she can produce.

Everyone has priorities in life the guy who says cannot afford nice ones like Ted, has two snowmobiles and huge camper in his yard, I do not, have decoys, great hunting in ND here, and some very nice dogs. ....but hunting/dogs are my priority. We all makes choices. I cannot foot the bill tp run with the big dogs in FT game but a big fan, I help and watch all I can. The HT game and a few Quals is my level but when I started all I wanted was a good hunting dog, thus the disease started!


No bear hounds do not have title they have reputations, the hound world is small, and the guy who is consistently treeing game gets a reputation along with his pack/pups.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Great thread....be careful with the personal comments

With a retively small sample size of 2 litters and 19 puppies placed......pricing was a difficult decision. Both breeding were the same.....a qaa Keihla X Chopper batch bred to Fc Afc Holland. The first litter was sold out within an hour of advertising and many word of mouth placements at $2000 . It produced 3 derby list males of which were qaa before the 2nd litter was born. This litter was 7 males and 3 females with more demand for females. AThe 2nd liiter was 7 females and 2 males. Using the success of the first breeding we priced the pups at $2200. The 2 males were sold from the waiting list from the first breeding.the females seemed to be a tough sell this time and we ended up discounting the price to $1700 for all the pups. BTW..one of these female pups is now #3 on the derby list. My take......you just don't know how it is going to turn out.....success is mainly about placement.....success may or may not influenced pricing.


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## cowdoc87 (Dec 18, 2014)

An FC bitch at 5yrs old on a pro truck cost the owner, what 50K in training fees? It's litter mate, who went to a hunting home or a HT home, and trained by its amateur owner- zero training fees.They have similar genetics (they are litter mates!) and the hunting dog could even be more gifted, but never sees a field trial, so no way to know, unless you've seen the dog work, by pure luck. Surely pups out of each dog should sell for much different prices, but may be equally talented. I wouldn't think a rare occurrence?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I am having trouble conveying what I mean for some reason.

1. Dog "A" is placed in a home and is used as a hunting dog/pet or achieves a JH. Wonderful dog. Never competes in a Field trial.

2. Same dog "A" different situation, different home, becomes an NFC. Dog "A" has the same genetics either way.

Example 1 will probably never be bred. Example 2 will probably be bred a lot.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think you buy from what you know. I am not opposed to buying a pup from a JH bitch - if I know the bitch and there is something compelling about her. I have walked away from puppies from a FC/AFC bitch that I did not like. 

I think that there have been a lot of generalizations in this thread that I dispute.


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## LA Daddy (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm new to this game, but I've been breeding livestock my entire life (horses, hounds, showpigs, and cattle). So, here's my two cents. 

1. Great animal athletes are not always great reproducers. Seabiscuit is a perfect example of this from the horse world. 

2. Some average animal athletes are awesome reproducers. Doc Bar the famous Quarter Horse stallion is an example of this.

3. I would never breed a bitch to a dog that was a "freak." Meaning that he was an awesome dog, but the rest of his litter was average or disappointing.

4. No mating of two animals is ever a "sure thing".

I want to thank everyone for the great insight and knowledge that I've picked up on this forum.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

mjh345 said:


> David congratulations to you on your accomplishments with your MH X JH.
> I have been following you two with great pride
> 
> I happened to own your dogs sire and sold him to Roger when he was 6 yrs old.
> ...


Thank you for the kind words  Actually both Rascal and Maddie the dam were extremely well bred with Rascal's sire being Bubba and Maddie's sire being Patton. Also as John Lash pointed out, Abby may have never been since I bought her for a gun dog with no intention of running Trials. It was fortunate that I crossed paths with several people who saw her potential as a Trial dog and urged and almost forced me to begin serious training and competition.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

FC AFC Slider's Dam and Grandam were both untitled....I wonder what his litter went for?


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Simple math can explain the prices I have seen. 

One FC AFC as a parent = appox. $1,200 to $1,500 per pup. Two is double or more. N or NA before a title adds approximately another $1,500.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

LA Daddy said:


> I'm new to this game, but I've been breeding livestock my entire life (horses, hounds, showpigs, and cattle). So, here's my two cents.
> 
> 1. Great animal athletes are not always great reproducers. Seabiscuit is a perfect example of this from the horse world.
> 
> ...


Great post, especially about gifted athletes not always being great producers. That's why I want to know the great performers sire and dam. As you know they can produce. In regards to littermates being equal producers because of genetic make up, I post an example, according to huntinglabpedigree.com Carbon produced a great many titled dogs, out of different female lines (i.e. Lean Mac and non-Lean Mac), all of his siblings combined produced 2 FCs (out of one female) and one QAA dog. I do not believe littermates are not equal in regards to breeding potential. The problem lies is that the time it takes for a dog to show as a good producer he is usually older and fertility goes down. Then you can only hope they collected him as a young dog so he may still be available.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

NateB said:


> In regards to littermates being equal producers because of genetic make up, I post an example, according to huntinglabpedigree.com Carbon produced a great many titled dogs, out of different female lines (i.e. Lean Mac and non-Lean Mac), all of his siblings combined produced 2 FCs (out of one female) and one QAA dog. I do not believe littermates are not equal in regards to breeding potential.


Carbon was a Natl FC + HOF, and he produced 3 pretty good national field champions plus multiple FC. His sister produced FC Merlyn and FC/AFC Fen Wizzard. His dam was half sister to Code Blue. Who knows what the placement on his littermates were, I sure would take a chance on that bloodline.


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## Kyle Garris (Oct 27, 2005)

Just saw JH x JH here in SC for $1200. Really?!


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

Bryan Parks said:


> FC AFC Slider's Dam and Grandam were both untitled....I wonder what his litter went for?


Slider's dam produced FC AFC Miah before the FC AFC Slider, FC Crystal, FC Albert, FC Cassi, AFC Bentley, etc. litter. A litter from an untitled bitch that produces FC talent will be just as expensive as a litter from a titled bitch.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Kajun Kamakazi said:


> Slider's dam produced FC AFC Miah before the FC AFC Slider, FC Crystal, FC Albert, FC Cassi, AFC Bentley, etc. litter. A litter from an untitled bitch that produces FC talent will be just as expensive as a litter from a titled bitch.



Sometimes more.


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## JMitchell (Dec 28, 2012)

Kyle Garris said:


> Just saw JH x JH here in SC for $1200. Really?!


What shocks me is you look in the Sunday newspaper how many lab puppies are for sale for around $800. I have called a few when I got my last pup just to see what they had, more out of curiosity. Most were my buddy has a male who is a good hunter and I have a sweet female. When asked about health clearances they were clueless and never heard of them. The part that shocked me was they say we had 10 pups and have 2 left. My boy is now 1.5 years old and dad was AFC/FC and mom was a QAA master hunter that is also a pheasant guide dog. He had all clearances and was $1000. I think I got a great deal.


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## Maddog10 (Feb 8, 2013)

JMitchell said:


> What shocks me is you look in the Sunday newspaper how many lab puppies are for sale for around $800. I have called a few when I got my last pup just to see what they had, more out of curiosity. Most were my buddy has a male who is a good hunter and I have a sweet female. When asked about health clearances they were clueless and never heard of them. The part that shocked me was they say we had 10 pups and have 2 left. My boy is now 1.5 years old and dad was AFC/FC and mom was a QAA master hunter that is also a pheasant guide dog. He had all clearances and was $1000. I think I got a great deal.


Agree. I've just gone through something similar in my search for a litter. Amazing what people will list "hunting" litters for, and even more amazing that people will buy them up at those prices with no health clearances whatsoever. I finally settled on a MH QAA x MH litter with all clearances from a reputable breeder for $850 and felt like I did well. Pick the pup up tomorrow.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Carbon was a Natl FC + HOF, and he produced 3 pretty good national field champions plus multiple FC. His sister produced FC Merlyn and FC/AFC Fen Wizzard. His dam was half sister to Code Blue. Who knows what the placement on his littermates were, I sure would take a chance on that bloodline.


I think Carbon was a once in a generation type of "special" dog and a great sire, but I would not assume his brother was as potent.
I have noticed Code Red is seen in the pedigree of more than a couple good producing dogs. I do not seen him discussed much but seems he had some significant influence.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

NateB said:


> I think Carbon was a once in a generation type of "special" dog and a great sire, but I would not assume his brother was as potent.
> I have noticed Code Red is seen in the pedigree of more than a couple good producing dogs. I do not seen him discussed much but seems he had some significant influence.


Code Red sired Code Blue and was by Super Powder who sired 39 FC. Enough said.

So much depends on who the breeder was of Carbon and what his ability was to get the pups in trial homes at that time.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Super Powder was dysplastic and had a mediocre field trial career, had Tom Quinn not bred FC-AFC Nakai Annie to him no one would know his name, Code Red was the end of the line of males from NFC-NAFC Super Chief.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

+ about $500 for a dog with "a nice head." :sad:

+ about $500 for "rare fox red." :sad:

Gasp. :sad: :sad: :sad:


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Renee P. said:


> + about $500 for a dog with "a nice head." :sad:
> 
> + about $500 for "rare fox red." :sad:
> 
> Gasp. :sad: :sad: :sad:


The snapper litter in the ads should be $1500 to $2000 then.. not the advertised $1000. 

I have no vested interested in that litter... just noticed it today.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Tobias said:


> The snapper litter in the ads should be $1500 to $2000 then.. not the advertised $1000.
> 
> I have no vested interested in that litter... just noticed it today.


Looks like a nice breeding. Had they only known that color and headshape was the path to vast riches...

Edit: the ad does not use any of this language about color and head shape.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Yeah...they could be getting a lot more.. even advertise that the pups 'could' throw fox red! 
It does amaze me how well some breeders market their pups.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Well we finally had our litter and got 10 pups, and we finally agreed on a price of 1400. This is an FCxQAA/hrch breeding where the bitch line is strong.


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