# Latest Salvo in the EE v RFTN Fight



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The Retriever Field Trial News has just issued a press release

http://www.working-retriever.com/rftentry.html


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Thanks Ted


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

I particularly liked this line:



> _Judges' travel costs, birds and catalogues are the three most expensive elements of a weekend event._


Which one of those three _throw the birds_ all weekend at an event??? And how do they get them to do it for less than it costs to produce a catalog???

Inquiring mind regards,

kg


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

KG, I was thinking the exact same thing. Catalog costs currently are one of my least financial worries as a club president planning an event.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

It seems to me if it turns out that RTFN would be losing money on entries by giving away the catalogs for a period of time, this would be considered an anti-competitive action to destroy the other firm in the arena. I do not know how much income is derived from advertising, so it still may profitable. It seems unlikely, though.

I am not an attorney. Perhaps someone here has some expertise in predatory business practices.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Seems like competition to me. ShaYne can handle it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Russ said:


> It seems to me if it turns out that RTFN would be losing money on entries by giving away the catalogs for a period of time, this would be considered an anti-competitive action to destroy the other firm in the arena. I do not know how much income is derived from advertising, so it still may profitable. It seems unlikely, though.
> 
> I am not an attorney. Perhaps someone here has some expertise in predatory business practices.


I am not an Arkansas attorney, but I doubt whether under these facts offering free catalogs consitutes impermissible below cost pricing.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

K G said:


> I particularly liked this line:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe they've never had to put on a weekend trial.

From the Press Release...

Free Catalogues 

As an introductory offer, RFTEntry will provide free catalogues for the first 75 clubs that select RFTEntry for their event. This approach is the best way to both load our database and to provide the clubs with a significant cost savings! In order to spread the good word, this benefit is limited to one event per club. 

Cost to the Competitor 

We encourage everyone to load up the profiles of their competing dogs and to use the RFTEntry service. Electronic users will be charged $2.50 per entry. Electronic entries made through our VIP program will incur a $2.00 per entry charge. RFTEntry recognizes that some dog owners do not have access to a computer or simply elect to use paper entries. For this small group of owners there will be no cost in sending paper entries. In our discussion with field trial secretaries, there were generally less than 5 entries per trial that were received from owners in paper form. Agents and other members of “the trade” that file paper entries will incur a $3.50 charge per entry. For professional handlers, alternate handlers, and agents, this charge creates the proper incentive to use our electronic database. 


Am I reading this corretly, they are only willing to pay for the catalogs for one trial only?
Big deal!

In regards to the $3.50 surcharge tactic for those that prefer Entry Express, that's what they have to do in an attempt to get Entry Express' business. I'd rather pay the $3.50 (which really comes to $2.50 with the double bonus bucks with Dogs Afield)chump change than be blackmailed!

I will cancel my subscrpition to RFTN.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

"As an introductory offer, RFTEntry will provide free catalogues for the first 75 clubs that select RFTEntry for their event"

That should take about 5 years to reach.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> I will cancel my subscrpition to RFTN.


Out of curiousity, does anyone think that since RFTN is the "premier" FT (and AKC HT) reporting souce, RFTN feels that they have more to offer than the subscriber who cancels has to lose? Or, in other words, that RFTN doesn't really care if they lose some subscribers???

Doing without a RFTN subscription regards,


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

I often don't read many of the monthly issues. The only one that I keep is the year end All Age summaries. If I can read that on-line why pay $43. a year?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Out of curiousity, does anyone think that since RFTN is the "premier" FT (and AKC HT) reporting souce, RFTN feels that they have more to offer than the subscriber who cancels has to lose? Or, in other words, that RFTN doesn't really care if they lose some subscribers???Doing without a RFTN subscription regards,


It is my understanding that Retriever Field Trail News has about 4000 subscribers, not many for a monthly publication and there is no large untapped reservoir of potential subscribers.

I would suspect that the potential loss of even 100 subscribers would be significant. In reality a monthly printed periodical with a very small target audience is a dinosaur. RFTN's primary value historically has been the publication of (guess what) retriever field trial results. With the advent of RTF and EE those results are often available in real time so that by the time RFTN comes out it mostly contains old news.

On a few occassions over the years I sought to have pertinent articles about dog health issues published in RFTN but each time I was ignored or rebuffed.

It is unfortunate that RFTN did not invest it's resources into a quality online publication with up to date news, statistics, and real time field trial and hunt test results, that I believe, would have been well received, popular, and profitable.

Ex-Retriever Field Trial News Subscriber Since 1992 Regards.......


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## Topgun (Dec 1, 2005)

I like the RFTN in print and have been a subscriber since around 1993. I like the format of it. That being said, it has, to some degree become obsolete from a "news" standpoint, with the up-to-the-minute results available from this site, EE, and others.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Even though the news is old, I still like the purty pictures.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Don't plan to renew my subscription next month either Vicky.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

EdA said:


> ...
> Ex-Retriever Field Trial News Subscriber Since 1992 Regards.......


Isn't that 1972?

It's like Playboy used to be. No one reads the articles.

ShaYne likes competition. He can handle it.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

So my question - what would be the interest in an online stats website??

FOM


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Isn't that 1972?.


nah, I was still paying for it back then.........my well chronicled break up with RFTN management was in 1992.....


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

EdA said:


> It is unfortunate that RFTN did not invest it's resources into a quality online publication with up to date news, statistics, and real time field trial and hunt test results, that I believe, would have been well received, popular, and profitable.


I would gladly pay at least a $42 subscription to something like that. Maybe even more if up to date statistics such as those found in "1941-1995 Retriever field Trial Statistics by Susan E Reynolds," were accessible.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

As always it boils down to service. Giving things away is a perfectly legitimate business strategy and usually done to capture market share. However if the service is lousy it's not even worth free. The market will always decide the relative merits of competing enterprise.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Having, as yet, still not received my January issue of RFTN, and having only received my December issue in January, I am not sanguine about having RFTN handle entries. However, the more important issue in my mind is that RFTN and the clubs have effectively announced their intention to create a monopoly on entry management using a mix of seductive and authoritarian techniques. They are trying to describe this in a way that links to a core mission -- record-keeping -- but I believe that it will actually distract them from their primary missions. In the process, they are trying to destroy those businesses that have actually done something constructive in this area. For future entrepreneurs who might do something useful, the message is clear. If you can find out a way to do something useful and make money, we will use our institutional position to drive you out of business. I do not believe that this should be a tax sheltered activity. If RFTN is going to participate in this arena, it should be required to abide by the same non-discrimination provisions that apply to the clubs in terms of how it prices its services. In the mean time, I think I will continue to ask EE to act as my agent in processing the entries that I will choose to have submitted manually for any events that register for rftentry. I would expect them to be treated the same as my secretary would be treated in preparing and mailing my entry.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

If they will pay for catalogs add in judges expenses, bird boys, ammo, insurance, lunch and come out and marshall a few stakes especially on friday (being non-profit and all) Sign me up. 

That way we will have more for the cocktail party.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

FOM said:


> So my question - what would be the interest in an online stats website??


My question would be: Which service lets you opt out to respect your privacy?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I mostly look at the pictures and stud ads in RFTN. With only a circulation of 4000 it seems that a website can upload pictures and stud advertising would reach more people online.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

EdA said:


> It is unfortunate that RFTN did not invest it's resources into a quality online publication with up to date news, statistics, and real time field trial and hunt test results, that I believe, would have been well received, popular, and profitable.





Buzz said:


> I would gladly pay at least a $42 subscription to something like that. Maybe even more if up to date statistics such as those found in "1941-1995 Retriever field Trial Statistics by Susan E Reynolds," were accessible.


Buzz,

When I saw Dr. Ed's post, I agreed wholeheartedly with the above quote. 

IF RFTN would develop their website to have an on-line version of the RFTN which could show up to date news, FT/HT results, along with video clips, etc., I believe they would improve their resource for the retriever community. For the folks that do not use the computer, they could still offer the hard copy.

Just so no one thinks I am just picking on RFTN, I was a subscriber for many, many years. I also for years ran a monthly ad for my puppy raising business as well as litter ads. I have quite a collection of RFTN....12 binders full, plus another pile that would probably fill another 5 or 6 binders. I considered myself a very good customer. I am very disappointed at this point.

Too bad they didn't do more to improve what they already have regards,


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Keith Stroyan said:


> My question would be: Which service lets you opt out to respect your privacy?


 
That could be an option.....I'm just thinking out loud......but I would say if the owner of a paricular dog did not want stats available to the joe public then you flag that record and do not display it but instead direct the person looking for info to contact the owner.

FOM


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> That could be an option.....I'm just thinking out loud......but I would say if the owner of a paricular dog did not want stats available to the joe public then you flag that record and do not display it but instead direct the person looking for info to contact the owner.
> 
> FOM


It's public information

What basis would there be for excluding information about your dog's PERFORMANCE (as opposed to your personal information, etc.)?

This is not like a health test where privacy promotes testing which is thought to promote the public good.

If you don't want your dog's performance to be recorded, don't compete


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I happen to like reading articles in print

I subscribe to Time Magazine - even though I read the NY Times online in the morning

I subscribe to Sports Illustrated - even though I scan their website daily

And I will continue to subscribe to the Retriever Field Trial News - even though results are more readily available here

I don't sanction or condone what is being done in the entry business, but I am not prepared to give up my subscription either


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Oh, and by the way, the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club will be using Entry Express for its Field Trials in 2008.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ted,

You could just say contact last known owner and not list personal info - just thinking from a website development perspective.....I agree FTs are public, the results are public, but from a web developer prespective it is an easy option to do on a database.....nothing but thinking outloud.....

Lainee, Flash and Bullet


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think if you are going to prepare a Performance Database, you need to have every dog in it. If the people don't want in, they don't have to be in. But, the dogs should be.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Unless and/or until the two National clubs make their Constitution and Bylaws available to their members, I will not accept at face value any statment that what they are doing in this regard to be allowable by same.

How do you start one of those patition threads regards.

john


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

My suggestion is to send a registered letter, return receipt requested, to the secretaries of both National clubs requesting a current financial statement and a copy of both club's constitution and by-laws for your club.

That's what I'm going to do for our club.

kg


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

The Master National Club has their Const. and BL's posted on a club website The two National FT clubs should follow their lead.

You don't see the MN club doing anything with newspapers and entry services or the like do ya?????

No, they are doing what they allowed to do by their constitution and bylaws, HAVE A NATIONAL!!!!!!!!!

Ted, does your club have a copy that you could e-mail me ?
john


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Yes, Vicki, I agreee........ I tried for years to convince them that it was a first results battle to the end..... News is news. First news wins..... but what do I know.

When RFTN bought out a very popular and wonderfully useful website www.working-retriever.com , much like RTF is now today but better, what was the purpose....initiative......behind that????????? ( A Not-for-profit organization, publication, purchasing a web based site????)

The site, a once flourishing useful site visited everyday just like RTF, became stagnant. The site was updated very seldom. This happened back in the early 1990's. This was Field Trial News's answer to the world wide web...

They could have, AND STILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY. to make it the MOST POPULAR site on the internet. If they would just put the magazine online the instant it is published, people would go their to read the news BEFORE they even got the hard copy. Give every registered subscriber a login, or the same login, they use to enter field trials, AND WELLA!

Now we have www.RFTEntry.com ..... trying to outdo a wonderful website, www.entryrexpress.com. Why didn't the AKC or the National clubs come up with this first? Now the challenge, if they want to compete, is to blow it out with innovative new ideas combined with an online magazine that will make the retriever world look and say, "NOW THIS IS GREAT!"

Let the competition begin.....

The input of every member club, member, and participant should be heard to decide the direction of the field trial entry service. WHAT DO WE WANT ????? WHAT DO WE NEED????? WHAT IS BEST FOR FIELD TRIALS AND HUNT TESTS????


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Doing without a RFTN subscription regards,



There is life after 


Good luck to Shayne…I hope he kicks the competition's ass


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

TBell said:


> But, 'initially', way.........way.....back..... when RFTN bought out a wonderfully useful website www.working-retriever.com , much like RTF is now today but better, what was the purpose....initiative......behind that????????? ( A Not-for-profit organization, publication, purchasing a web based site????)
> 
> The site, a once flourishing useful site, became stagnant and was never updated. This happened back in the early 1990's. This was Field Trial News's answer to the world wide web


WRC was the dominate retriever site when RTFN bought it. The new owners did want to get active in moderating, so they elected to have an automatic censoring program. I was automatically banned for using the word "stupid". After most people made similar errors, they gravitated to the site that had been mostly NAHRA oriented, RTF.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John

I do not have the by laws of either club, although I suspect I will now be asking for them

I cannot help but believe that Jack Unbehaun would have them

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I thought RFTN's decision to purchase WRC was a good one. I thought their execution on WRC was poor.

I thought that RFTN's decision to enter the entry business was a poor one, but that is old news. It is what it is. 

However, I think that their execution on the concept has been somewhat lacking to date.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

TBell said:


> Now we have www.RFTEntry.com ..... trying to overcome a wonderfully useful website, www.entryrexpress.com, I assume they tried to buy that too....but......


No, they never tried to buy EE.net nor was it for sale. However, EE.net's data base was offered to them for free, so they would have access to building statistics. That wasn't good enough, they wanted it all!


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

I think they may have shot themselves in the foot on this deal.

Jerry


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

I'm thinking the swissy one and the shop keeping inventor who was lucky enough to feed Super Sue might be better publishers of News Worthy Field Events than Publishers of Field events are at running anything electronic, including can openers ... just my 2 cents ...going back into my winter nap .. yawn ...


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Jerry said:


> I think they may have shot themselves in the foot on this deal.
> 
> Jerry




I think the what they stepped on is about three feet north of their feet.


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

There is a lot being said about droppin suscriptions to RFTN. But what about the Clubs taht sign on with them. Do we enter those events? I think the way to put a quick end to it would be a boycott of those events.


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

I think the way to put a quick end to it would be a boycott of those events



That sounds good to me - I think all the pros in Texas should boycotts these trials!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> There is a lot being said about droppin suscriptions to RFTN. But what about the Clubs taht sign on with them. Do we enter those events? I think the way to put a quick end to it would be a boycott of those events.


nope, the best way would be to MAIL your entries to the FT Secretary for those events


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

It was brought up in a club meeting last night that MVRC will use EE for 2008. The membership had voted that way and the board complied. The club members felt that EE did a good job and would likely continue in the future. They also felt RFTN entry was to new and would likely cause or have problems. A few members were contacted and pushed on a little to switch to RFTN as well.


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Gerard Rozas said:


> I think the way to put a quick end to it would be a boycott of those events
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds good to me - I think all the pros in Texas should boycotts these trials!


Me too, Ill be watching for the boycotts in TX this spring.


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

*Memorandum

To: *All Retriever Field Trial & Hunting Test Club Presidents, Secretaries & Delegates.

*From: *AKC Performance Events Department

*Subject: *Entry Process & Premium Lists

*Date:* January 14, 2008

In an effort to make the entry process as simple and straightforward as possible for prospective entrants the following must be printed in the premium list.

- A club who has elected to use an on-line entry service must specify the name and web-link to the entry service in its premium list.

- A club or on-line entry service must take paper entries even when an on-line entry service is specified in the premium list.

- The premium list must specify the address where paper entries are to be mailed.

- There should be only one address shown for mail in entries.

- This address can be that of the entry service company.

- Any service fee imposed by the on-line service must be clearly stated in the premium list.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> - A club or on-line entry service must take paper entries even when an on-line entry service is specified in the premium list.


For all future field trials I will enter my dogs through Entry Express regardless of the entry service used or the field trial secretary, no need to go to the laborious exercise of entering dog data on another service when it is already entered at EE


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

EdA said:


> For all future field trials I will enter my dogs through Entry Express regardless of the entry service used or the field trial secretary, no need to go to the laborious exercise of entering dog data on another service when it is already entered at EE


Same for me as I entered my dog yesterday through EE.net in a non-EE.net Field Trial.

The below from a support person at EE.net...



If you would like to register for non-EE events through our website, you can still do it online without worrying about a $3.50 fee. AKC has approved it for us to take online applications and mail them to RFTenty without anyone having to pay a fee. If you do not see the event that you are looking for on our website, please let us know and we will do our best to get it online for entry. I have attached an application if you would still prefer to mail it in.

Let me know if you need any further assistance.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> Same for me as I entered my dog yesterday through EE.net in a non-EE.net Field Trial.
> 
> The below from a support person at EE.net...
> 
> ...


And the worm has finally turned..........;-)

kg


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

K G said:


> And the worm has finally turned..........;-)
> 
> kg



If I didn't give Shayne a little hell during the onset of this whole ordeal, I wouldn't be doing my job as the FTS for our club!

In fact, I give all our vendors at work a little hell, keeps them on their toes. I never want my business taken for granted. Not that Shayne would but, I always like to practice.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

What I meant was that if EE has been given assurance from the AKC that there will be NO "$3.50 fees" tacked on to entries they forward to RFTN, then THAT worm has turned. The "disincentive" has been removed.

All is good with the entry world regards,

kg


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

K G said:


> What I meant was that if EE has been given assurance from the AKC that there will be NO "$3.50 fees" tacked on to entries they forward to RFTN, then THAT worm has turned. The "disincentive" has been removed.
> 
> All is good with the entry world regards,
> 
> kg


That was for the Triple D/Q events ONLY.

Going forward, it looks like AKC's stance is for the entrant to be at the mercy of any and all fees and regulations imposed by any unregulated/unaccountable entry service. 

In my opinion, if it is allowed that a subjective, sporatic, confusing, FEE charged to a certain demographic by an entry service and entrants are no longer protected/governed by the AKC rulebook, then there is no limit to the restrictions that can be imposed by the entry service. "Ed's Entries" can be the entry service for N. Texas Trial and his policy should be "Each entrant is only allowed up to 6 entries" OR after your 6th entry, it's $100 per entry processing fee. All roads, if this stands, lead to entry services deciding who gets to enter our events. And i guarantee there will be more "entry services" on the scene soon if this kind of power is available. Wow.

I'll post the EntryExpress policy on mailed entries. 

SM


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Another fine decision by the AKC. 


/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Junbe is _all over_ the AKC issue. We'll see that change....maybe not the $3.50, but the arbitrary decision making by those not empowered to do so.




> > Originally Posted by Terry Thomas
> > There is a lot being said about dropping subscriptions to RFTN. But what about the Clubs that sign on with them. Do we enter those events? I think the way to put a quick end to it would be a boycott of those events.
> 
> 
> *nope, the best way would be to MAIL your entries to the FT Secretary for those events*....EdA


DING-DING-DING-DING!!!! We have a WINNER! 

kg


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

*The EntryExpress view on AKC Mailed Entries*

*Overview*
We firmly believe that EVERY entrant is protected by the AKC Rulebook and Constitution when entering any event governed by the same. While the AKC Board of Directors have added a *regulation *allowing the use of electronic entry services, the *RULES *pertaining to discrimination, entries, and sportsmanship are clear in our eyes.

*To our Club Customers*
Though the rules may not apply to us directly, they do apply to you. It is the policy of EntryExpress to consider any and all AKC rules that could affect our AKC club customers. As the club’s contractually bound entry agent, it is our policy to not put our clubs at risk of liability as a result of our actions; discriminatory or otherwise. EntryExpress shall process all entries for our club customers; electronic or otherwise. EntryExpress will not charge a fee for any entries mailed to us for your club’s event. EntryExpress club customers are considerate of the wants and needs of the entrants. Our goal is to work as hard as possible to make certain your entrants are happy with your decision to be an EntryExpress club. 

*To our Entrant Customers*
You are protected with us! The AKC Rulebook is very clear regarding discrimination and giving consideration to the number of entries you submit. AKC policy on entry agents (i.e. anyone entering a dog they do not own) is equally clear. EntryExpress entrants will never be at the mercy of an “entry service” setting entry restrictions or complicated and subjective fee structures.
While not every club chooses EntryExpress to print their catalogs, you can still enter any scheduled AKC Retriever Field Trial or Hunting Test using EntryExpress.net, we’ll gladly mail them for you. In some circumstances, the club may elect to use an entry service that penalizes you financially for not using their online entry system; *EntryExpress will pay those penalty fees on your behalf when we mail in your entries. We are THAT committed to doing the right thing!*

In *drastic *contrast to a recently published statistic, events using an online entry service averaged over 15 mailed entries per event over the last two years, 12,468 mailed entries to be exact. We welcome your mailed entry. Mailed entries have been free for over half of a century and EntryExpress is working for you to keep it that way.

*Summary*
EntryExpress is and always has been YOUR entry service. You ask; we deliver. It’s that simple. Our track record proves it.

*1,554 events/185,100 entries strong… and growing!*​


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Forgive me if this question has been addressed or if it's something I should know. I haven't read every post on this topic in detail ... gave me a headache. But,
will the closing time/date be earlier in order to allow EE time to get the snail-mailed entries in on time? Or will they be accepted as long as they are submitted electronically by me to EE before the posted closing time?

JS


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

EdA said:


> nope, the best way would be to MAIL your entries to the FT Secretary for those events



That is in fact the best idea I have read on this subject. Overload them in paper entries.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

JS said:


> Forgive me if this question has been addressed or if it's something I should know. I haven't read every post on this topic in detail ... gave me a headache. But,
> will the closing time/date be earlier in order to allow EE time to get the snail-mailed entries in on time? Or will they be accepted as long as they are submitted electronically by me to EE before the posted closing time?
> 
> JS


 
The deadline will be early for non-EE events.....not sure how much earlier, but that gives EE time to print out the entereis and mail them.

FOM


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

FOM said:


> The deadline will be early for non-EE events.....not sure how much earlier, but that gives EE time to print out the entereis and mail them.
> 
> FOM


Shayne, how does it work? Do you folks snail mail them, overnight them, certified mail?

/Paul


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Having been a past Hunt Test secretary, I can attest to the fact that it was a once dreaded job that burned out many of our workers too soon. With Entry Express it has given the trial/test secretary a much needed hand in preparing for our weekend trials/tests. It may even become fun again to be trial secretary!

I will stick with the entry service that attempts to make entries easiest and most affordable for all involved, therefore, perpetuating our sport in the long run. It has become quite an expensive sport with raising gas and entry fee prices, and it will eventually squeeze out the amateur competitors who are also the ones who work the trials.

Challenge....One thing I would like to see ..... A printable entry form for each trial that can be printed online from the entry service with my dog's information, to be signed by me, and mailed into the entry service/secretary with no credit card/service fees attached. Just look at your average club trial of 150 dogs and multiply that times $3. That comes to $450 just in fees! I know online credit card fees are expensive, but we can avoid that by simply mailing our entries in.

Any ideas, Shayne??

Thanks!

Tammy


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Shayne, how does it work? Do you folks snail mail them, overnight them, certified mail?
> 
> /Paul


Overnighted, with obsessive tracking and follow-up once tracking says they are delivered.

SM


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

TBell said:


> Having been a past Hunt Test secretary, I can attest to the fact that it was a once dreaded job that burned out many of our workers too soon. With Entry Express it has given the trial/test secretary a much needed hand in preparing for our weekend trials/tests. It may even become fun again to be trial secretary!
> 
> I will stick with the entry service that attempts to make entries easiest and most affordable for all involved, therefore, perpetuating our sport in the long run. It has become quite an expensive sport and with raising gas and entry fee prices will eventually squeeze out the amateur competitors who are also the ones who work the trials.
> 
> ...


It's possible Tammy. If thats what our customers want, we'll do it... and always have.

To avoid the $3.50 fee for "groups" of entries, EE will simply send individual envelopes and checks for each owner(s), with each owner's return address. Unless RFTN comes back and changes the policy again to specify WHO can write a check for entries and WHO has to walk it to the mailbox.

We could include AKC and FEDERAL policy on electronic signatures, should there be an issue with an entry form generated online.

SM


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

It would save me 12 bucks a weekend! And some of the other guys even more...

Hate to see the credit card companies get all the profit.

Tammy


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

TBell,

I have an electronic version of the form that I use - I can email it to you. I use EE to grab the event number and fill out the top portion of it, print, write check and mail....

Once you get the dog's info entered, it is just a matter of just updating the other fields.....

I also then watch EE to verify they got my entry......pretty spiffy and they are QUICK on getting my mailed in entry online 

FOM


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

EdA said:


> nope, the best way would be to MAIL your entries to the FT Secretary for those events



Ed this would work but I have a general question. I notice on the RFTN site that the secretary is listed but is says to mail entries to RFTN, example below. My question is, if I mail the entry to the secretary instead of RFTN, can they reject the entry because i mailed it to wrong address?

By the way, EE Stacey set this trial up for me so I can enter through EE.

/Paul

https://www.rftentry.com/pub/events/detail/EventView.cfc?method=display&eventID=61


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I notice on the RFTN site that the secretary is listed but is says to mail entries to RFTN, example below. My question is, if I mail the entry to the secretary instead of RFTN, can they reject the entry because i mailed it to wrong address? /Paul
> 
> 
> > According to the AKC memo, " - The premium list must specify the address where paper entries are to be mailed."
> ...


----------



## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

FOM said:


> TBell,
> 
> I have an electronic version of the form that I use - I can email it to you. I use EE to grab the event number and fill out the top portion of it, print, write check and mail....
> 
> ...


My idea was for the electronic version to be on Entry Express. I click 'Enter my dogs', select which dogs and which events, and then click print entry form instead of paying via credit card. It then prints the entry form with the correct event information and all of my dog information included. I simply sign the form and mail in with a check to save the credit card fees.

Tammy


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > I notice on the RFTN site that the secretary is listed but is says to mail entries to RFTN, example below. My question is, if I mail the entry to the secretary instead of RFTN, can they reject the entry because i mailed it to wrong address? /Paul
> ...


----------



## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> To avoid the $3.50 fee for "groups" of entries, EE will simply send individual envelopes and checks for each owner(s), with each owner's return address. *Unless RFTN comes back and changes the policy again to specify WHO can write a check for entries and WHO has to walk it to the mailbox.*
> 
> SM


All they need now is an audit and they will have succeeded in developing an entry system that is more complicated, confusing and costly then the IRS!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> That was for the Triple D/Q events ONLY.
> 
> Going forward, it looks like AKC's stance is for the entrant to be at the mercy of any and all fees and regulations imposed by any unregulated/unaccountable entry service.
> 
> ...



Ok…so see if I got this right...EE is trying to STILL make entries to HT and FTs as easy and painless as possible while this other group of carpet baggers are trying to carve a niche out for themselves by being royal pains in the ass? Tell me if I am wrong….this is why I will send mail using almost any service other the United States Postal Service.

Shayne if this is your competition and your customers have an IQ above 60 you don’t have a thing to worry about.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

*Here is the AKC position on the matter.
Date: January 14, 2008




In an effort to make the entry process as simple and straightforward as possible for prospective entrants the following must be printed on the premium list.


A club Who has elected to use an online entry servicemust specify the name and web link of the entry service in its premimum .

A club or entry service must take paper entries even when an on-line entry service is specified in the premium list.

The premium list must specify where the paper entries are to be mailed.

There should be only one address for mail in entries.

This address can be the address of the entry service company.

Any service fee imposed by the on-line entry service must be clearly stated in the premium list.


Click to expand...

john*


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## Buck W (Jan 10, 2008)

john fallon said:


> *Here is the AKC position on the matter.
> Date: January 14, 2008
> 
> 
> ...


*

The rule book for Field Trials specifically states that the FT Sec. must be a club member, and the name and address of the FT Sec. MUST BE included in the premium. So, are all the RFTentry premiums in violation?

Where did this list come from? Is it from the official rules for field trials?*


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

> Where did this list come from?


From a unsigned letter sent out 14 Jan 2008 to all Field Trial & Hunting Test club Presidents, Secretaries and delegates.


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## Rich Schultheis (Aug 12, 2006)

"* Paper entries submitted by a listed owner will be accepted at no charge. Paper entries submitted by an agent shall be subject to a $3.50 processing fee."

What is listed on the premium of the river king spring trial, seen on rtfentry. Guess this means any entry sent in by a pro is subject to the same fee???


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

If a club decides to go with a certain entry service do I have to go with that service?? I am the member of a certain club near where I live is thinking of using RFTN b/c the club president has a nephew that works them, but I will not enter through them. I would like to use EE b/c I feel they are straight shooters.

Cory


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Buck W said:


> The rule book for Field Trials specifically states that the FT Sec. must be a club member, and the name and address of the FT Sec. MUST BE included in the premium. So, are all the RFTentry premiums in violation?
> 
> Where did this list come from? Is it from the official rules for field trials?



If you look you will see that the secretary's contact info is listed. It then says to mail entries to RFTN's....

/Paul


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## B Smith (Sep 24, 2007)

I don’t usually do this but I’ve been in the field trial game for a long time. I judged my first licensed trial in the early 80’s. I’ve owned and trained Labradors, Chesapeakes and one Golden. I’ve busted my butt on weekend trials. I’ve work at many National Amateurs. Since my first judging assignment I have judged with brand new judges and have mentored them as I was, when I first started. I just agreed to judge with another new judge who has just passed his test. I’ve spent the closing date with a frustrated Field Trial secretary trying to figure out FT entries. Along with the electric collar, we used to pepper a dog with bird shot for correction, Entry Express has been the greatest thing since sliced bread. So along comes RTFentry. Both make entering events easier for every body. Both are excellent sites. All my running dogs are registered on these sites. You guys just don’t get it. Entry Express is a for profit company. How many Nationals and National Amateurs have they financed? How much has EE given back to the retriever sport. Will EE poll member clubs on rule changes and discuss these changes at the National meeting and present the recommended changes to the AKC. Also, all the PRTA FT secretaries who use EE seem to be forgetful on who puts on the National Retriever Trial in November. This event spot lights the Pro Trainer. It’s not Entry Express. These two outstanding non profit clubs own RTFentry and have done an excellent job supporting the sport of retrievers. So the next time I see you Yahoos, who sit behind your keyboards, bashing RTFentry, working at a National Amateur, while laying in a flooded Jon boat, full of dead duck juice, popping, then retiring in the duck smell, I’ll listen. I do it for the love of the sport. Entry Express does it for the money profit. SJRC and SRRC will go with RTF and I’m working on 4 other clubs to use RTF.

Love you all.


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> The Retriever Field Trial News has just issued a press release
> 
> http://www.working-retriever.com/rftentry.html


looks like a good thing to me.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

B Smith said:


> So the next time I see you Yahoos, who sit behind your keyboards, bashing RTFentry, working at a National Amateur, while laying in a flooded Jon boat, full of dead duck juice, popping, then retiring in the duck smell, I’ll listen.
> Love you all.


I'm a small potato newbie to FTs, but I've volunteered to work the Nat Am this year. I also work almost every HT I go to & have worked a few FTs & am sure I will continue to do so in the future. I'd venture to guess the majority of folks posting to this thread have given far more hours of their own time to the sport.

I can only speak for myself, but I support EE out of loyalty to the person who developed an idea, took a chance, put blood, sweat & tears into developing something that has been an unbelievable Godsend to clubs & individual owner/handlers. I never felt like bashing RFT UNTIL they started imposing ridiculous sanctions and adding big box store mentality incentives to try & strong arm folks into using their service. That doesn't appeal to my sense of fair play & most of us "little people" will rally behind one of our own when the fight takes on an unfair advantage.

So for me-I'll enter through EE only & I will strongly push any club I belong to or am affiliated with in any way to use EE also.

Yahoo Regards-

M


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

What EE has done for us is nothing short of a miricle. So they charge a little for their service... so what! Look at what they are providing! Ask any event secretary how easy their secretarial duties have become since switching over to EE.

Fortunately, all of the events I'm looking at to enter this year are being done thru EE.

I'll support and continue to use EE until I am _forced_ to use another service.

In another thought I recently visited the WRC boards, just to see what was being posted.

Alll I can say is Thank God for RTF!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Did they—the officers and the BOD of both the national clubs— ask for feedback from NRC and NARC *member clubs* BEFORE they launched RFTentry ?

Of course not, they are not even the governing body for this entry service. It is this other entity ,( _one that seems to have a life of its own)_, not the National clubs that are calling the shots here.

Even if that were not the case the National club are too autonomous for my taste, I am on record as to what I think of the other entity

Even though the correlation escapes me.
As For helping out at a National. Other than the committee chairs, what is the protocol for the appointment of the slots on the various committees as it relates to people in clubs who are national club members and live close to the event ?????????

It would seem to me that the members of *ALL* the member clubs in the immediate area would be adequately represented.

This is not the case in 2009 at the National Open.

As I said before "too autonomous for my taste"

I did have a say in what entry service we will use for 2008

'09 will be a new year, I will wait and see .....................

john


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## zoomngoldens (Nov 11, 2004)

TBell said:


> My idea was for the electronic version to be on Entry Express. I click 'Enter my dogs', select which dogs and which events, and then click print entry form instead of paying via credit card. It then prints the entry form with the correct event information and all of my dog information included. I simply sign the form and mail in with a check to save the credit card fees.
> 
> Tammy


There is an agility entry site that does this www.dogeventsonline.com . You select the trial to enter, dog, and classes and the site creates a pdf for printing. They charge an annual fee ($15 or $20) for this service but if you enter trials online with a credit card you get the annual fee back as credit. They could use some competition though if Shayne wants to get into the agility entry business!


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

john fallon said:


> As For helping out at a National. Other than the committee chairs, what is the protocol for the appointment of the slots on the various committees as it relates to people in clubs who are national club members and live close to the event ?????????
> 
> It would seem to me that the members of *ALL* the member clubs in the immediate area would be adequately represented.
> 
> john


I think all one would have to do to volunteer to work a shift would be to call the committee chair and let them know you want to work. The chairs are always looking for workers and need to know who wants to give their time. It takes a lot of workers to put on that event. All they could do is say they have enough if that were the case. It's not really about the National Club, but the individual committee chairs signing up their people to work.

LM


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

ML or anyone for that matter,
Would you care to elaborate on the protocol for the second tier co-chair positions as it pertain to locals?

john


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Having Entry Express available has made all the difference to this relatively new FT secretary. I can only imagine what a challenge it was previously to do an accurate, timely and cost effective job before that service was available. And now we have a choice between it and a competing service. Having spent time with both services, each do many things well and each could limprove in certain areas. And they both could do more to coordinate with the AKC so that we're not filing essentially the same information in multiple places. 

Having a choice means each is going to work hard to get our club's business -- all to the good as part of saving time for secretaries and more importantly keeping club costs and thus entry fees down. South Jersey Retriever Club is going with RFTentry.com.

Yesterday's South Jersey Retriever Club's annual meeting was the first time I had heard about all the additional benefits being made to clubs by RFTentry.com and clarified some misconceptions. 
Among them:
No fee for mailed in entries unless submitted by an agent
Free catalogs for the first 75 clubs' first event 
Lower cc fees for entries

Our spring trial (April) will be handled by RFTentry.com. Hope to see you there!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

JKOttman said:


> Having Entry Express available has made all the difference to this relatively new FT secretary. I can only imagine what a challenge it was previously to do an accurate, timely and cost effective job before that service was available. And now we have a choice between it and a competing service. Having spent time with both services, each do many things well and each could limprove in certain areas. And they both could do more to coordinate with the AKC so that we're not filing essentially the same information in multiple places.
> 
> Having a choice means each is going to work hard to get our club's business -- all to the good as part of saving time for secretaries and more importantly keeping club costs and thus entry fees down. South Jersey Retriever Club is going with RFTentry.com.
> 
> ...


I wonder where a non profit organization is going to get thier funding when they continue to undercut prices to get business? I doubt they will operate in the red.....enjoy the calls asking for running order...

/Paul


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

B Smith said:


> These two outstanding non profit clubs own RTFentry and have done an excellent job supporting the sport of retrievers. So the next time I see you Yahoos.


hmmmm....well this "yahoo" has been everything from grunt to Field Trial Chairman to NRC president at every National Retriever Championship in the West Central time zone since 1984, I've been on the Steward's Committee, the Grounds Committee, the Marshall's Committee, and the Official Guns (my best assignment) at countless Nationals and National Amateurs.

My club (North Texas) has been in existence since 1955, when last I checked not a single Officer or Board of Director from either National club sought my or my club's opinion about the formation of the RFTN online entry service, something one would think should happen as we pay our annual dues on time every year. 

Both National Championship events are wonderful events hosted by the two National Clubs and put on by the labor of people like me who typically give up 10-14 days of their lives and a thousand bucks or more to insure that the National Championship Stakes continue to be quality events, for this we get a cheap fake bronze pin, a hat, and an invitation to a party. The average worker at National is an anonymous drone whose recognition is a group picture published in an old news publication. 

I have served my time and I would much prefer a questionaire or ballot about such important matters that affect the sport. 

For me the introduction of the RFTN online entry service is as important to me and my club members as we are to them, apparently not important at all.

Yahoo Regards.........


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

OUTSTANDING post ED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry


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## Buck W (Jan 10, 2008)

B Smith said:


> Also, all the PRTA FT secretaries who use EE seem to be forgetful on who puts on the National Retriever Trial in November. This event spot lights the Pro Trainer. It’s not Entry Express. These two outstanding non profit clubs own RTFentry and have done an excellent job supporting the sport of retrievers.
> 
> Love you all.


PRTA makes grants to field trial clubs for grounds improvement. I'm not in the know, but what monies have trickled down to the local club from these "two outstanding non profit clubs"?

Has anyone been privy to what will be done with "all the money" RFT will make on this venture? There isn't a lot of money to be made on the entry service. I am guessing it will take years just to recoup the outlay for hiring an outside firm to design the database--$150k or $200k? In addition, there will be more money spent to fix the shortcomings. Think what that amount of money could have done for the field trial clubs.

Hunt Test clubs, where do they fit in? Will any monies trickle down to the HT clubs?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> You guys just don’t get it. Entry Express is a for profit company.


In the many and varied discussions that have occurred on this subject, along with their recent merger with Dogs Afield, I'm _pretty_ sure we all "get it."



> How many Nationals and National Amateurs have they financed? How much has EE given back to the retriever sport. Will EE poll member clubs on rule changes and discuss these changes at the National meeting and present the recommended changes to the AKC.


How is *any* of that EE's job, unless you count making life easier for the folks filling the FTS/HTS positions with clubs? Not to mention the almost instantaneous reporting of results if the event secretary cooperates. They are providing a service for a fee, same as RFTentry.



> Also, all the PRTA FT secretaries who use EE seem to be forgetful on who puts on the National Retriever Trial in November. This event spot lights the Pro Trainer. It’s not Entry Express.


Apparently the PRTA FT secretaries feel like EE's track record of "gettin' it done" in its fourth year is worth staying with.;-) PRTA also puts on more events per year than each individual National club does, and if I'm not mistaken, they also let Amateurs enter and run three other stakes at each of their two trials.



> These two outstanding non profit clubs own RTFentry _(sic)_ and have done an excellent job supporting the sport of retrievers.


They each put on ONE event a year....and have a heckuva lot of help from member clubs and National participants. This went on LONG before there was ANY electronic entry service....



> So the next time I see you Yahoos, who sit behind your keyboards, bashing RTFentry, working at a National Amateur, while laying in a flooded Jon boat, full of dead duck juice, popping, then retiring in the duck smell, I’ll listen.


This sounds a little "holier than thou," BS....I'm using BS as your initials since, after all, they are. And again, it's done ONCE per year by each club. I sorta liked Ed's description of the "payoff" you get for participating. Why do you think the great majority of us participate in this sport, anyway?



> I do it for the love of the sport. Entry Express does it for the money profit.


So you run RFTentry??????




> SJRC and SRRC will go with RTF _(sic)_ and I’m working on 4 other clubs to use RTF _(sic)_.


Good luck. Strong arm tactics will only get you so far.



> Love you all.


Feelin' it, BS....._Feeeee_-_lin_-_it........_

Fellow Yahoo regards,

kg


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

B Smith said:


> I don’t usually do this but I’ve been in the field trial game for a long time. I judged my first licensed trial in the early 80’s. I’ve owned and trained Labradors, Chesapeakes and one Golden. I’ve busted my butt on weekend trials. I’ve work at many National Amateurs. Since my first judging assignment I have judged with brand new judges and have mentored them as I was, when I first started. I just agreed to judge with another new judge who has just passed his test. I’ve spent the closing date with a frustrated Field Trial secretary trying to figure out FT entries. Along with the electric collar, we used to pepper a dog with bird shot for correction, Entry Express has been the greatest thing since sliced bread. So along comes RTFentry. Both make entering events easier for every body. Both are excellent sites. All my running dogs are registered on these sites. You guys just don’t get it. Entry Express is a for profit company. How many Nationals and National Amateurs have they financed? How much has EE given back to the retriever sport. Will EE poll member clubs on rule changes and discuss these changes at the National meeting and present the recommended changes to the AKC. Also, all the PRTA FT secretaries who use EE seem to be forgetful on who puts on the National Retriever Trial in November. This event spot lights the Pro Trainer. It’s not Entry Express. These two outstanding non profit clubs own RTFentry and have done an excellent job supporting the sport of retrievers. So the next time I see you Yahoos, who sit behind your keyboards, bashing RTFentry, working at a National Amateur, while laying in a flooded Jon boat, full of dead duck juice, popping, then retiring in the duck smell, I’ll listen. I do it for the love of the sport. Entry Express does it for the money profit. SJRC and SRRC will go with RTF and I’m working on 4 other clubs to use RTF.
> 
> Love you all.



You have to be kidding? Using Entry Express isn’t about supporting a national club it is about making things easier on the people that make the national clubs necessary. If the other service is a better service than so be it. But as I see it the entry service you are representing hasn’t done a damned thing to date except try to strong are EE out of business. We have a name for people that use tactics like that here in Oklahoma.


----------



## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

JKOttman said:


> Having Entry Express available has made all the difference to this relatively new FT secretary. I can only imagine what a challenge it was previously to do an accurate, timely and cost effective job before that service was available. And now we have a choice between it and a competing service. Having spent time with both services, each do many things well and each could limprove in certain areas. And they both could do more to coordinate with the AKC so that we're not filing essentially the same information in multiple places.
> 
> Having a choice means each is going to work hard to get our club's business -- all to the good as part of saving time for secretaries and more importantly keeping club costs and thus entry fees down. South Jersey Retriever Club is going with RFTentry.com.
> 
> ...


Sir,

Think about this for a moment.

Mailed entries have never carried an extra fee.

When was the last (or any) time you had to pay for catalog?

Has it ever cost you extra to write a check for your entries?

EE has simply made it a click or two on the keyboard to enter ANY Ft/Ht. 

Jerry


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Jerry said:


> Sir,
> 
> Think about this for a moment.
> 
> ...



I guess none of those folks have ever had to order equipment for a field trial, Jerry. Dogs Afield dollars prolly don't mean much to them!

Save a buck an entry on credit card fees.....

Big Whoop regards,

kg


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Jerry said:


> Sir,
> 
> Jerry


That would be Madam.

john


----------



## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> That would be Madam.
> 
> john



Whatever, they still don't know squat from Shinola.

Jerry


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

:BIG:

kg


----------



## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

And Shayne NEVER refused one of my checks!!!! Regardless of when I sent it to him.

Try that with RFTN and see what happens!!!!

Jerry


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

As the Secretary (for the past several years) of Women's Field Trial Club, I have recieved no communication from the AKC regarding electronic entries.

Guess I will start the phone calls tomorrow.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Who has the link for their latest press release ?

john


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Back from duck camp to read this 11 page thread.

Very interesting.

The Cimarron RC was one of the first to "make the leap" into the world of Electronic Entry.

As long as there is a Cimarron RC and I have anything to do with it we will use Entry Express. Even if it costs us money to do so...

Around here we call it being loyal to a friend of our sport.

Another Yahoo from Oklahoma.....


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

_Cost to the Competitor 

We encourage everyone to load up the profiles of their competing dogs and to use the RFTEntry service. Electronic users will be charged $2.50 per entry. Electronic entries made through our VIP program will incur a $2.00 per entry charge. RFTEntry recognizes that some dog owners do not have access to a computer or simply elect to use paper entries. For this small group of owners there will be no cost in sending paper entries. In our discussion with field trial secretaries, there were generally less than 5 entries per trial that were received from owners in paper form. Agents and other members of “the trade” that file paper entries will incur a $3.50 charge per entry. For professional handlers, alternate handlers, and agents, this charge creates the proper incentive to use our electronic database. _

I am FT Sec for 2 clubs and I know of several pro trucks that handle the entries for their entire truck to simply business, ensuring dogs are entered.


_"this charge creates the proper incentive to use our electronic database."_

Is this necessary?


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Shayne had the guts to test new waters and he was here when we needed him. As long as I have any influence on the Alamo RC, I'll be pushing for EE. As Tim wrote, loyalty is important and ranks right up there with responsibility.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

B Smith said:


> I don’t usually do this but I’ve been in the field trial game for a long time. I judged my first licensed trial in the early 80’s. I’ve owned and trained Labradors, Chesapeakes and one Golden. I’ve busted my butt on weekend trials. I’ve work at many National Amateurs. Since my first judging assignment I have judged with brand new judges and have mentored them as I was, when I first started. I just agreed to judge with another new judge who has just passed his test. I’ve spent the closing date with a frustrated Field Trial secretary trying to figure out FT entries. Along with the electric collar, we used to pepper a dog with bird shot for correction, Entry Express has been the greatest thing since sliced bread. So along comes RTFentry. Both make entering events easier for every body. Both are excellent sites. All my running dogs are registered on these sites. You guys just don’t get it. Entry Express is a for profit company. How many Nationals and National Amateurs have they financed? How much has EE given back to the retriever sport. Will EE poll member clubs on rule changes and discuss these changes at the National meeting and present the recommended changes to the AKC. Also, all the PRTA FT secretaries who use EE seem to be forgetful on who puts on the National Retriever Trial in November. This event spot lights the Pro Trainer. It’s not Entry Express. These two outstanding non profit clubs own RTFentry and have done an excellent job supporting the sport of retrievers. So the next time I see you Yahoos, who sit behind your keyboards, bashing RTFentry, working at a National Amateur, while laying in a flooded Jon boat, full of dead duck juice, popping, then retiring in the duck smell, I’ll listen. I do it for the love of the sport. Entry Express does it for the money profit. SJRC and SRRC will go with RTF and I’m working on 4 other clubs to use RTF.
> 
> Love you all.


Good for you BS. 
Not being in this as long as you , I can say that I have worked 28 straight HT's and judged 17 in addition. Not to mention working for other clubs when they need help. And I can say in all those event's, the only people we have seen from any National organization have been AKC field reps.
EE has been all for the HT clubs and had gone out of it's way to simplify things for our volunteer HTS's. I do not recall any such thing from any one else.

So while you may feel some obligation to RFTentry and it's parent clubs, please do not lump us lowly HT clubs in the same pile. If not for EE, we would still be considered the poor cousin's.


----------



## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

It would certainly be nice to know which B. Smith it is that has called Ed a Yahoo. The 2007 CallBacks has Barry in MS, Ben in MT & SC, Bob in SC, Bob in CA, Brad in IN, Brad in OK, Bruce in OH and Bussy in MS plus there is the Bobby Smith that I know in MS.

Anyway, I was hopeful that someone else would ask this question, but I do not see it so I will.



> Originally Posted by B. Smith:
> . . . You guys just don’t get it. Entry Express is a for profit company. How many Nationals and National Amateurs have they financed? . . .


To question how many Nationals and National Amateurs EntryExpress has financed it to imply that EntryExpress has financed none but that RFTNews has. Given that you are apparently one of the privileged few that has access to the financial statements of the three non-profit organizations, the National RC, the National Amateur RC and the RFTNews, I would love to know how many dollars the RFTNews has given to each National club for the express purpose of funding the two national events. I have my perception, but would like to here the facts from a knowledgeable source which you seem to be.

Thanks in advance for your reply.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

In addition, why can't NRC and NARC clubs get at least a current financial statement in return for their membership checks?

kg


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## BirdHntr (Apr 30, 2005)

JKL said:


> _Cost to the Competitor
> 
> RFTEntry recognizes that some dog owners do not have access to a computer or simply elect to use paper entries. For this small group of owners there will be no cost in sending paper entries. In our discussion with field trial secretaries, there were generally less than 5 entries per trial that were received from owners in paper form. Agents and other members of “the trade” that file paper entries will incur a $3.50 charge per entry. For professional handlers, alternate handlers, and agents, this charge creates the proper incentive to use our electronic database. _
> 
> ...


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

OMG too funny - can a company co-own a dog? Add EE as a co-owner to the dog then no fee from RFTEntry - hahahaahahaha - that's a good one.

But then again I'm sure the "rules" would change and there would still be some fee created to try and drive EE out of the market....

BTW guys and gals just noticed a lot of posters are using "RTF" incorrectly:

RTF = Retriever Training Forum

RFTEntry or RFT for a shorter version is Retriever Field Trial Entry

Just don't need RTF to get a bad wrap 

FOM


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

FOM said:


> OMG too funny - can a company co-own a dog? Add EE as a co-owner to the dog then no fee from RFTEntry - hahahaahahaha - that's a good one.
> 
> But then again I'm sure the "rules" would change and there would still be some fee created to try and drive EE out of the market....
> 
> ...


That might explain why i keep showing up at events and i'm not listed. I keep sending my entries to Chris and Vickie hoping to avoid the $3.50 charge but I'm never entered....

/paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Yeah....you'll notice my reply to BS added that correction....;-)

kg


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

K G said:


> Yeah....you'll notice my reply to BS added that correction....;-)
> 
> kg


Yuppers, was hoping that others would catch it too... 

FOM


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> That might explain why i keep showing up at events and i'm not listed. I keep sending my entries to Chris and Vickie hoping to avoid the $3.50 charge but I'm never entered....
> 
> /paul


What's the address? I don't see it listed in the premium! 

FOM


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

FOM said:


> What's the address? I don't see it listed in the premium!
> 
> FOM


Stupidly I thought the web address was good enough. I keep PM'ing them entries...I wonder what their doing with my entry fee's, I certainly hope their putting back into the sport....

/Paul


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Stupidly I thought the web address was good enough. I keep PM'ing them entries...I wonder what their doing with my entry fee's, I certainly hope their putting back into the sport....
> 
> /Paul


What do you think keeps this forum afloat?

Just stating the obvious (just kidding), regards.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Jim Pickering said:


> To question how many Nationals and National Amateurs EntryExpress has financed it to imply that EntryExpress has financed none but that RFTNews has. Given that you are apparently one of the privileged few that has access to the financial statements of the three non-profit organizations, the National RC, the National Amateur RC and the RFTNews, I would love to know how many dollars the RFTNews has given to each National club for the express purpose of funding the two national events. I have my perception, but would like to here the facts from a knowledgeable source which you seem to be.


Guidestar.org has tax returns for non-profits. You can sign up for free to see them. There is a listing for the NARC, but I could not find one for the NRC or RTFN. The HSUS one is very scary.

Russ


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

FYI.

Both National clubs hand out financial statements to all present at the annual meetings at the National Open and National Amateur each year.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> FYI.
> 
> Both National clubs hand out financial statements to all present at the annual meetings at the National Open and National Amateur each year.


What happened to your post about EE being inordinately greedy, etc, etc.?


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

Vicki Worthington said:


> FYI.
> 
> Both National clubs hand out financial statements to all present at the annual meetings at the National Open and National Amateur each year.


Good to know in case I ever get there again. 

So if you have copies can you answer the question?

Thanks.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> FYI.
> 
> Both National clubs hand out financial statements to all present at the annual meetings at the National Open and National Amateur each year.


I just found that out earlier today. Funny that you need to qualify and represent a club at the event to get one put into your hand.

I made a formal request that each event secretary for each member club be sent a financial statement for each club, certified mail/return receipt requested. It'll be interesting to see if it happens.

kg


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Stupidly I thought the web address was good enough. I keep PM'ing them entries...I wonder what their doing with my entry fee's, I certainly hope their putting back into the sport....
> 
> /Paul


Ummmm, of course, I'm giving back to the sport.  I have all these dogs to feed.  Plus, I have to look good in some new jeans and jackets!! 

Just keep sending those entries to me, /Paul.....maybe I'll "finance" a "National"..... national shopping spree!!


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> What happened to your post about EE being inordinately greedy, etc, etc.?


I, _and i'm sure everyone else that is subscribed to this thread_, got a copy of it in our email.

Without going into specifics, i'll just say that whatever info Vicki was privy to could not be further from the truth.

Shayne


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> I, _and i'm sure everyone else that is subscribed to this thread_, got a copy of it in our email.
> Shayne



Thanks man...it just went away in the middle of my reading it.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Hey Keith.

You don't really have to "qualify"--just attend the meetings. Can't tell you how many I've been to without a dog since losing Cruise!

I guess we'll find out if they will send to club secretaries to share with memberships throughout the country. Don't know why they wouldn't other than the time it takes to do the mailing.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Vicki, I'm happy for you that you can afford to attend National meetings without a dog competing. My guess is that puts you in a VERY small group.

kg


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Now THAT was a cheap shot!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> What happened to your post about EE being inordinately greedy, etc, etc.?


http://www.entryexpress.net/givebackfund/default.aspx

;-)


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

How was that a cheap shot if it's the truth? Anyone who attends a National without a dog is in a small group relative to the rest of the attendees.

And if it isn't the truth, then I'll apologize in front of RTF and everybody.

Very few people who don't "qualify" will show up only to attend the meetings. I had this very conversation with one of the NARC officers yesterday and they agreed. Talk about an unjustifiable club expense just to get a financial statement.....

This same officer also agreed that clubs should be sent copies of the financial statements if they do not have a club member (not just a proxy) attending each National.

Ease up, Vick.....no harm intended.

kg


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

EdA said:


> http://www.entryexpress.net/givebackfund/default.aspx
> 
> ;-)


I love it. 

tt

ps The Oklahoma Ice Storm of 2007 destroyed part of my kennels. I need around $1000 for repairs. Please help. 

(I'm kidding)


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

EdA said:


> http://www.entryexpress.net/givebackfund/default.aspx
> 
> ;-)


_



A committee of your peers will be put together to manage all aspect of this fund. *Student scholarships, financial hardships, health emergencies, natural disasters, land improvement, national events, canine/waterfowl legislation, etc...* all worthy causes and we want to help.

Click to expand...

_So will the members of this committee be appointed for life? :lol:


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Just like the RAC........;-)

kg


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Jim Pickering said:


> So will the members of this committee be appointed for life? :lol:


Absolutely not!

We've been discussing this for some time now and are to a point where it's time to get input from the community as we finalize this program. 

Initial thoughts were 5 or 7 people, from both Hunt Test and Field Trial clubs.

We're open to input and want to make sure we get it right and we do whats best for the community as a whole.

Given our technical ability, we could easily put things out for mass votes or handle elections electronically or whatever the committee decides to do. No employee or officer of EE or DA will be on the committee.

SM


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

I want to be the President(Dictator, Ruler)!!


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

All Hail our Benevolent Dictator for Life!!!


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

If there is that large a quantity of excess profits that you need to create a fund to "give back" why not just lower the prices and don't "take" in the first place?


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Why ask why. Just let the man give back what he wants to!


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Being that Shayne seems to be such a crusader against unfair business practices maybe the first donations could go to the companies that used to print the catalogs that he undercut and put out of business. I'm sure that was just good old fashioned competition.

Its a little arrogant (well maybe a lot) to put up several posts of how fancy your truck is and how nice your new house and not think someone might want to take a slice of that pie. Especially since you are getting your slice off their organizations activities and its not that difficult to duplicate. 

Its called capitalism, quit whining.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Vicki Worthington said:


> If there is that large a quantity of excess profits that you need to create a fund to "give back" why not just lower the prices and don't "take" in the first place?


I'm not sure how you'd define "excess profits." (although oil companies do come to mind here)

If you look at costs to entrants, it is the same after you get your Dog's Afield Dollars. This nonsense that a private company that comes up with a great idea to make life easier for the clubs and those entering events does not deserve to make a profit, and that the benevolent non-profit organization must move in to make the situation right just blows me away.

To me, this looks like a response to folks on their high horse proclaiming that EE has done nothing for the sport.

So I wonder what the next argument will be...


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

IowaBayDog said:


> Its a little arrogant (well maybe a lot) to put up several posts of how fancy your truck is and how nice your new house and not think someone might want to take a slice of that pie.


Yes, because for sure there is no one in the sport that can afford expensive dogs, big fancy trucks, and nice houses.

Crying all the way to the bank regards...


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## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> If there is that large a quantity of excess profits that you need to create a fund to "give back" why not just lower the prices and don't "take" in the first place?


Since when is a company making a profit called "taking". Did/Do you work for free? It blows me away that the same folks that will drop thousands of dollars (on a regular basis) on a HOBBY no less, are the first to complain when a company makes a couple of bucks on an entry when that company is actually providing a service.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

IowaBayDog said:


> Being that Shayne seems to be such a crusader against unfair business practices maybe the first donations could go to the companies that used to print the catalogs that he undercut and put out of business. I'm sure that was just good old fashioned competition.
> 
> Its called capitalism, quit whining.



Were the companies that he "put out of business" private, tax paying companies? If so, then yes that would be old fashioned competition.

RFTN is not for profit and enjoys the added benefit of that situation. EE does not. Not for profit should not be predatory. I think thats like the fifth time I have said that. I'm not bored with it yet though. 

Anyway, I'm off to the church bake sale. We are setting up next to one of the local bakeries. Let's see them compete, bwah ha hahahahah.

tt


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> Being that Shayne seems to be such a crusader against unfair business practices maybe the first donations could go to the companies that used to print the catalogs that he undercut and put out of business. I'm sure that was just good old fashioned competition.
> 
> Its a little arrogant (well maybe a lot) to put up several posts of how fancy your truck is and how nice your new house and not think someone might want to take a slice of that pie. Especially since you are getting your slice off their organizations activities and its not that difficult to duplicate.
> 
> Its called capitalism, quit whining.


Your right, i created EE because Ann Begun was doing a few sets of catalogs a week and rollin in a Bentley because of it! Geeze. I did this for the clubs and because being an event secretary is the most thankless job ever. I'd like to believe our new competition has the same motivation as i did, but i'm struggling with that. To compare what is going on right now, to what i did is absurd. Besides, any monies i spent to get this going belonged to me.

This is one of those times where i should have to call my "sponsor" before making a post....

As far as my truck and my house... You are right and that is my fault. Life pre-EE spoiled me. All those years as an overpriced, overbilling, consultant MIGHT have a little to do with my life today.

And FYI, i've talked to 3 different people that did catalogs pre-EE and each of them was thankful they aren't doing it today. Some people are still doing catalogs. Kinkos does quite a few as well.

Shayne


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Mike Noel said:


> Since when is a company making a profit called "taking". Did/Do you work for free? It blows me away that the same folks that will drop thousands of dollars (on a regular basis) on a HOBBY no less, are the first to complain when a company makes a couple of bucks on an entry when that company is actually providing a service.


Thanks Mike. I'm sure Ainley, Deerskin, Mountaintop, all the Pro trainers, all the supply companies, and the Muck Boot folks are doing this for fun.

Vicki, i posted in the other thread about the "excess profits". Give me a call when you get a chance please 214-395-1427 I'm certain you've been given some very very wrong information. We need to catch up anyway.

Shayne


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> And FYI, i've talked to 3 different people that did catalogs pre-EE and each of them was thankful they aren't doing it today. Some people are still doing catalogs. Kinkos does quite a few as well.
> Shayne


Make that 4. 
The Redhead did catalogs for a few of the clubs here in the Northwet for a LOT of years. Over the years she had accumulated a large data base of dogs and handlers, but even with that (not to speak of a whole lot of additional time and energy writing code to facilitate this whole process) the amount of time and energy spent trying to make out some chicken scratch, or chase down some bad check writing #)&%)#& or phone calls wanting to add/scratch/verify/bitch/running order and the trips to Kinkos and the ........on and on and on. 
Truth is thank God someone had the foresight/ingenuity/ability/whatever else it takes to create and make available a service like EE. 

I guarantee you she is happy to be out of business and if that means that someone else makes a few bucks - well ain't life Grand.

The job of Event Secretary went from well in excess of 200 hours to just a couple almost overnight. I would hope that someone makes some money as a reward for making that happen. 

Stop whining indeed regards

Bubba


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## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Thanks Mike. I'm sure Ainley, Deerskin, Mountaintop, all the Pro trainers, all the supply companies, and the Muck Boot folks are doing this for fun.
> 
> Vicki, i posted in the other thread about the "excess profits". Give me a call when you get a chance please 214-395-1427 I'm certain you've been given some very very wrong information. We need to catch up anyway.
> 
> Shayne


If someone thinks you make too much they should go buy a roll of stamps and quit entering online.

Never appologize for making a living.

BTW, Shayne, got your wire from the bank in Geneva....the account is in order and we are ready to trade. LOL!


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## Buck W (Jan 10, 2008)

IowaBayDog said:


> Being that Shayne seems to be such a crusader against unfair business practices maybe the first donations could go to the companies that used to print the catalogs that he undercut and put out of business. I'm sure that was just good old fashioned competition.
> 
> Its called capitalism, quit whining.


I wonder if YOU have ever been an event secretary?? If you had, you'd probably know better than to make such a statement.

Preparing a catalog takes over 2 weeks of daily data input, trying to read messy handwritten entry forms, calling people to get data, dealing with checks for too much money/too little money, checks that bounce, no entry form at all, phone calls night and day from people who have questions, chasing people down at the event to get a signature on the form, etc. etc. etc. 

Once you get it all input into a database you BUILT YOURSELF, then you have to print the darn thing and turn those pages into a catalog.

Once you have a catalog ready to copy, I can bet that most did it like I did and copied it on my employers' copy machine. Oh, and it takes a special $25 stapler just to staple the darn thing. And, it takes 3-4 hours of photocopying and stapling to finish it.

So, don't think Shayne "STOLE" anything from us or from anyone else. We are all THRILLED he stepped in and took this "wonderful" job. EE.net made it so that a club can actually get new people to volunteer to BE an Event Secretary. Prior to Shayne, no one wanted to do this job as it was extraordinarily time consuming and thankless. It's still a pretty thankless job, but with ee.net it is a lot less time consuming and a lot less stressful. Stacey, and Kristy(?sp) and Shayne do all the "heavy lifting."

And, the best part is that the catalogs arrive ON TIME and at my door!


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Your right, i created EE because Ann Begun was doing a few sets of catalogs a week and rollin in a Bentley because of it! Geeze. I did this for the clubs and because being an event secretary is the most thankless job ever. I'd like to believe our new competition has the same motivation as i did, but i'm struggling with that. To compare what is going on right now, to what i did is absurd. Besides, any monies i spent to get this going belonged to me.
> 
> This is one of those times where i should have to call my "sponsor" before making a post....
> 
> ...


That's great, you had a great idea made a business out of it. I applaud that, what I don't get is your fear of competition. All I ever hear on RTF is how great EE is and from everyone I talked to they have had good experience with it. So why get bent out of shape when someone who obviously can't compete with your greatness comes along and tries? 

Non-profits compete in the business world all the time. DU, Pheasants Forever, etc. all sell products that compete with others directly. Non-profit doesn't mean they aren't allowed to generate revenue it only restricts what they can do with that net revenue. 

I don't know why you would need a sponsor there are enough cronies on here to stroke your ego regularly. For their benefit try not to make any abrupt stops, might get messy.


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

Shame on DogTra and others for messing with Tri-Tronics, and all the dog box companies that decided Rufus Deskins shouldn't have the whole pie. Not to mention all them damn foreigners that put a hurt on Henry Ford's legacy.

It's simply called competetion, which benefits ALL of us "consumers".

Jerry


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

IowaBayDog said:


> Non-profits compete in the business world all the time. DU, Pheasants Forever, etc. all sell products that compete with others directly. Non-profit doesn't mean they aren't allowed to generate revenue it only restricts what they can do with that net revenue.


I don't know Shayne from Adam, and I am certainly not one of his cronies. As a matter of fact, I was one saying that competition was a good thing. That is, until I learned of their non-profit/tax exempt status. What they are doing may be legal, but is it ethical. In my earlier illustration/joke, I said that I was going to set us a church bake sale next to a bakery. That may be legal, but is it ethical? If this site, or Avery, or Dogtra, or any other for profit company was doing this, then I would be all for it. However, this non/not-for-profit has appeared to be rather aggressive in its biting of the pie. 

Legal, yes, ethical, no.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Iowabaydog, 

China is taking many American jobs, producing products that no doubt compete with American companies and products. Is there quality as good? Do they offer as good of service? Sounds like a good fair idea to try and compete right? Well among many other things their government is manipulating their currencies and doing many other basically illegal things to make their products lower cost and possibly more competetive than the US products. Still sound like a good fair idea? 

Fair competion is one thing.........


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

I don't think Shayne is the least bit afraid of competition. I do believe that a few people have tried to tilt the direction of choice perhaps a little underhandedly.

I believe that RFTN is trying to avoid getting excessive paper entries. I get the impression that they think EE will flood them with paper and thus cause many to avoid the entry service for those trials choosing RFTN.

I am reluctant to annoint "St. Shayne" on the "give-back" program. My post was simply that the fastest way to reduce cost is to reduce it to the people paying the fees. Thus, if you make excessive profits to the extent that you feel compelled to give back money to the sport in some way, perhaps the answer is to reduce the fees and let those who keep the money in savings decide how to contribute to the sport. I should think the charge for the credit card use should be per transaction, not per entry. Also, when I use a service, I don't want free merchandise. For the record, I don't open accounts with banks because ethey give me a toaster either! From my perspective, keep your Dogs Afield Dollars and reduce the fee to use the service. 

Shayne, I will give you a call when I have some time--right now work is driving me crazy. It's also the silly season known as Income Tax Time. Being partnered with a tax accountant makes me nuts. I know that there are always 2 sides to everything, and that the truth lies somewhere in the middle between those 2 sides.

Keith Griffith...with respect to my saying that was a cheap shot--it was. My attendance at Nationals is not because I'm in some elite status or group. I give up my time and money to work. There are some 150-175 people who do that every year, sometimes twice each year. Some only work while their dogs are running, some NEVER work--they just compete and accept the hard work or others, and some work the entire trial. I've found that most people afford what they choose to afford. You have no idea what other things people don't afford or deny themselves to be able to participate at Nationals--either as a competitor or as a worker.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

One more thing.....

Just so you know, a not-for-profit or non-profit organization is not barred from earning a profit. The designation is because their business motivation is not to earn a profit. I believe that RFTN has articles of incorporation that states its purpose is other than to earn profits. Profits incidental to operation within their charter is acceptable and allowable.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

tshuntin said:


> Iowabaydog,
> 
> China is taking many American jobs, producing products that no doubt compete with American companies and products. Is there quality as good? Do they offer as good of service? Sounds like a good fair idea to try and compete right? Well among many other things their government is manipulating their currencies and doing many other basically illegal things to make their products lower cost and possibly more competetive than the US products. Still sound like a good fair idea?
> 
> Fair competion is one thing.........


So what you are saying is RFTN is equivalent to the ChiCom Gov't? 

Don't blame the Chinese, we let them do it by purchasing the goods and allowing them to subsidize without import tariff. Our greed to want to have more for less so we can buy more stuff played into the ChiComs hands. The lower value of the dollar will start to take care of that problem on its own.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> I don't think Shayne is the least bit afraid of competition. I do believe that a few people have tried to tilt the direction of choice perhaps a little underhandedly.


I believe the majority of that has stopped now, thanks to the intervention of several NRC and NARC officers. Shouldn't have happened in the first place. RFTentry can compete on a level playing field without resorting to a heavy hand, hopefully.



> Keith Griffith...with respect to my saying that was a cheap shot--it was. My attendance at Nationals is not because I'm in some elite status or group. I give up my time and money to work. There are some 150-175 people who do that every year, sometimes twice each year. Some only work while their dogs are running, some NEVER work--they just compete and accept the hard work or others, and some work the entire trial. I've found that most people afford what they choose to afford. *You have no idea what other things people don't afford or deny themselves to be able to participate at Nationals*--*either as a competitor or as a worker*.


Vicki, you're so cute when you think you know everything!  

As far as having *"no idea what other things people don't afford or deny themselves to be able to participate at Nationals,"* I threw birds at the '90 National in St. Louis in ice and snow (spent our "delayed honeymoon" there) until Rocky went out in the 6th series; I was on the grounds committee at the '91 Nat'l Am in Steamboat for the whole week, going out on the last bird in the 9th series; I threw birds again at the '93 Nat'l Am in Stillwater, MN, going out in the 6th series; I threw birds and planted blinds at the '94 Nat'l Open in Georgia; I threw birds at the '06 Nat'l Open in S. Carolina with no dog entered....ALLon my tab, ALL on my vacation time, FYI.

You read *FAR* too much into my post about attending a National without a dog....the fact remains that VERY few people do it. The rest about "elitist" was from YOU, not me.

Perhaps you should have left up the post you deleted earlier on this thread. I think it would have set the record straight about how you feel about this whole competitive situation.

kg


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

IowaBayDog said:


> That's great, you had a great idea made a business out of it. I applaud that, what I don't get is your fear of competition. All I ever hear on RTF is how great EE is and from everyone I talked to they have had good experience with it. So why get bent out of shape when someone who obviously can't compete with your greatness comes along and tries?
> 
> Non-profits compete in the business world all the time. DU, Pheasants Forever, etc. all sell products that compete with others directly. Non-profit doesn't mean they aren't allowed to generate revenue it only restricts what they can do with that net revenue.
> 
> I don't know why you would need a sponsor there are enough cronies on here to stroke your ego regularly. For their benefit try not to make any abrupt stops, might get messy.



Not the manners I would expect from an Iowa boy.

And they are right, if you have never been, and it is pretty clear you have not, a HTS, you have no clue what EE is really all about. The catalog's are such a small part of the equation. If we wanted to use a local printer or our in house which we did and saved $$$$ everytime we did our own catalog's we could do it. BUT, it is so worth the $ spent and the time saved to have everything done in one spot that it would be foolish to even try.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Golddogs said:


> Not the manners I would expect from an Iowa boy.
> 
> And they are right, if you have never been, and it is pretty clear you have not, a HTS, you have no clue what EE is really all about. The catalog's are such a small part of the equation. If we wanted to use a local printer or our in house which we did and saved $$$$ everytime we did our own catalog's we could do it. BUT, it is so worth the $ spent and the time saved to have everything done in one spot that it would be foolish to even try.


I'm a transplant to Iowa so that probably explains it. Though most of the locals here when confronted with a challenge buckle down and work harder instead of whining about someone else trying to hone in on their territory.

They are right about the convenience of EE, I never said anything different. If they are as great as everyone said there is no need for 3 seperate threads of whining about competition. Which was my point and had nothing to do with whether EE provides a service or not. It is/was a great idea and was well implemented.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Vicki Worthington said:


> I give up my time and money to work.
> 
> Obviously that was EXCESS time and money. If you have excess time and money, clearly you should be working more hours for less pay and stop volunteering from your EXCESS.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> I'm a transplant to Iowa so that probably explains it. Though most of the locals here when confronted with a challenge buckle down and work harder instead of whining about someone else trying to hone in on their territory.
> 
> They are right about the convenience of EE, I never said anything different. If they are as great as everyone said there is no need for 3 seperate threads of whining about competition.


Amazing what you don't see as "buckling down" and what you DO see as "whining." Pretty familiar with the AKC FT/HT rules are ya, IBG? If you were, you wouldn't have made that statement.

If you think it's whining, why do you post? 'Cause you ain't got no _Packers_ to talk about anymore?

Still looking for Charles Woodson to be holdin' that Super Bowl trophy regards,

kg


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

K G said:


> Amazing what you don't see as "buckling down" and what you DO see as "whining." Pretty familiar with the AKC FT/HT rules are ya, IBG? If you were, you wouldn't have made that statement.
> 
> If you think it's whining, why do you post? 'Cause you ain't got no _Packers_ to talk about anymore?
> 
> ...


As usual nothing you say makes a bit of sense. At least I'm not whining about the Packers losing, not sure what that has to do with this thread. 

Careful of those abrupt stops, keep a tissue handy.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I have no problem with competition in the on-line entry (or any other) business. 

I do have a problem with a non-profit organization (ab)using its non-profit status to gain unfair advantage in competing with tax paying businesses. Interestingly, State and Federal tax laws share that concern and otherwise tax exempt organizations may be required to pay taxes on those profits earned from these commercial activities. 

I also have a problem when organizations that are supposed to be promoting the overall good of the sport manipulate the rules to undermine commercial entities providing a valuable service to the community. This discourages others from investing in activities that would benefit the sport and distorts the judgment of those organizations as they seek to protect their own financial interests.

I believe that the creation of RFTEntry was a mistake that will end up damaging the sport. I don't question the motives of the Board members who approved this action. However, I believe that the costs and risks of launching this business were underestimated. Efforts to promote the business and salvage the investment made will cost a lot more money than has already been invested. Those efforts will also strain relationships between the national clubs, the local clubs, and competitors. 

A better approach might have been to define standards for electronically reporting results both to RFTN and the AKC. That would have helped reduce the work effort for event secretaries even more, would have laid a foundation for improving the accessibility of performance data, and would have made it easier for other businesses to compete for the entry management business. That kind of competition could result in reduced cost and improved service. Instead the clubs appear to be trying to use special fees and pressure on clubs to make it harder for others to compete with RFTEntry. This will increase costs and undermine service.

Not mentioned in the discussion so far is the fact that RFTEntry is likely to undermine any efforts to give competitors easier access to events across venues, including AKC, HRC, NAHRA, etc. While that would be a benefit to competitors, it would have the side effect of increasing the visibility of non-AKC events. Was this an objective of the decision by the national clubs?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> As usual nothing you say makes a bit of sense.


Then we have something in common.

I'll try using smaller words next time.

kg


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Vicki Worthington said:


> One more thing.....
> 
> Just so you know, a not-for-profit or non-profit organization is not barred from earning a profit. The designation is because their business motivation is not to earn a profit. I believe that RFTN has articles of incorporation that states its purpose is other than to earn profits. Profits incidental to operation within their charter is acceptable and allowable.


No one is disputing this. We all know that NPO's are allowed to profit, but listen to what you are saying, "I believe that RFTN has articles of incorporation that states its purpose is other than to earn profits." They are going about this in a manner that is not incedental, it is intentional.

tt


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Vicki Worthington said:


> Now THAT was a cheap shot!


my understanding is that rftn is a nonprofit and that there plan is to give free programs to the clubs once it gets things rolling they plan to make costs cheaper for everybody clubs and contestances 
maybe some of you that are better spoken than me that have acsess to rftn board members like me should get the real story instead of all the BS that goes on here 

AND WHAT EVER MAKES IT CHEAPER FOR THE CLUBS WINS IN MY MIND I KNOW THAT
THEY ARE HURTING


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

While RFTN may be non-profit, it may not be tax exempt. Maybe Vicki W. can clarify this through her accountant partner. My understanding is that a 501(c)7 has to derive the majority of income from the membership. Also since Guidestar does not list them (or NRC) as filing a non profit (form 990) return, I suspect they are not exempt from taxes.

Russ


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Vicki Worthington said:


> One more thing.....
> 
> Just so you know, a not-for-profit or non-profit organization is not barred from earning a profit. The designation is because their business motivation is not to earn a profit. I believe that RFTN has articles of incorporation that states its purpose is other than to earn profits. Profits incidental to operation within their charter is acceptable and allowable.


i WISH I COULD TALK SOOOOOO GOOOD 
GO TRAIN WITH SOMEONE BETTER THAN YOU


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

Russ said:


> While RFTN may be non-profit, it may not be tax exempt. Maybe Vicki W. can clarify this through her accountant partner. My understanding is that a 501(c)7 has to derive the majority of income from the membership. Also since Guidestar does not list them (or NRC) as filing a non profit (form 990) return, I suspect they are not exempt from taxes.
> 
> Russ[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Pyzon, you ok? I am not sure what you are saying. Maybe its just me, but I don't even know which side you're on, if you are on one. I'm confused.


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

MRGD said:


> Pyzon, you ok? I am not sure what you are saying. Maybe its just me, but I don't even know which side you're on, if you are on one. I'm confused.


NO SIDE WHY ARE YOUU ON A SIDE? I JUST WANT TO SEE THE CLUBS BE ABLE TO 
HAVE TRAILS AND NOT BE IN THE NEG. YOU SEE I LIKE TO TRAIN AND RUN MY COMMON DOGS IN TRIALS AND NOT HER E ABOUTA BUNCH OF SH111T ABOUT WITCH ENTRY SERVICE
IS BETTER. BY THE WAY EE DIDNT COME OUT OF THE BOX PERFECT OR ARE THEY NOW. NO ITS NOT JUST YOU I DONT SPEAK WELL.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Ok, buddy, just checking. Thanks


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

pyzon said:


> NO SIDE WHY ARE YOUU ON A SIDE? I JUST WANT TO SEE THE CLUBS BE ABLE TO
> HAVE TRAILS AND NOT BE IN THE NEG. YOU SEE I LIKE TO TRAIN AND RUN MY COMMON DOGS IN TRIALS AND NOT HER E ABOUTA BUNCH OF SH111T ABOUT WITCH ENTRY SERVICE
> IS BETTER. BY THE WAY EE DIDNT COME OUT OF THE BOX PERFECT OR ARE THEY NOW. NO ITS NOT JUST YOU I DONT SPEAK WELL.



Do what????

Jerry


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

pyzon said:


> NO SIDE WHY ARE YOUU ON A SIDE? I JUST WANT TO SEE THE CLUBS BE ABLE TO
> HAVE TRAILS AND NOT BE IN THE NEG. YOU SEE I LIKE TO TRAIN AND RUN MY COMMON DOGS IN TRIALS AND NOT HER E ABOUTA BUNCH OF SH111T ABOUT WITCH ENTRY SERVICE
> IS BETTER. BY THE WAY EE DIDNT COME OUT OF THE BOX PERFECT OR ARE THEY NOW. NO ITS NOT JUST YOU I DONT SPEAK WELL.


 

I aint too well spoken myself. Some of this stuff I gotta read 2 or 3 time before I get their meaning.
Having said that this is NOT about which is entry service is better. It's more about what is right and what is wrong.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> One more thing.....
> 
> Just so you know, a not-for-profit or non-profit organization is not barred from earning a profit. The designation is because their business motivation is not to earn a profit. *I believe that RFTN has articles of incorporation that states its purpose is other than to earn profits.* Profits incidental to operation within *their charter* is acceptable and allowable.


Will you tell us where we can get or look at a copy of these articles/charter ???

john


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

pyzon said:


> AND WHAT EVER MAKES IT CHEAPER FOR THE CLUBS WINS IN MY MIND I KNOW THAT
> THEY ARE HURTING


If you, or anyone else, thinks cheaper is better... i'd encourage you to go spend a day in our office. I don't think clubs are too worried about which entry service is willing to lose money the longest so they can save $20 on catalogs. They are concerned with who's going to work the hardest for them, who's going to do the best job, who they can count on to always get it right, and who's got the proper motivation to go that extra mile. And quite possibly, which system is the most functional. We are talking about printing catalogs here, or poppers, or any other vendor a club uses. Consider 16-20 events in a single week, each event requiring individual attention and special needs. On the surface it may appear to be a simple automated process. Trust me, the devil is in the details, many many details.



pyzon said:


> some of you that are better spoken than me that have acsess to rftn board members like me should get the real story instead of all the BS that goes on here


The "stories" are a big part of my problem. Maybe you should call me up and ask ME the real story. 214-395-1427, i'm not being sarcastic in the least... i'd love to talk about it.

I'm aware that i usually don't help myself much when i can't keep my yapper shut on here. Part of me feels a need to make sure people know the facts and part of me feels the need to respond when people have questions, concerns, and to justify our decisions as a company. We have nothing to hide and our decisions have logic behind them. I'm more than happy to share that logic with our customers. I see a LOT of questions directed at other organizations on here that go unanswered, and we know they are being read. I never want to appear like there is something to hide. 

Sorry if it's viewed as whining Mr Iowa.

I'm about to start packing for the Triple D/Q... where i'm thankful none of this mess is likely to be brought up. 

Shayne Mehringer


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> I am reluctant to annoint "St. Shayne" on the "give-back" program. My post was simply that the fastest way to reduce cost is to reduce it to the people paying the fees. Thus, if you make excessive profits to the extent that you feel compelled to give back money to the sport in some way, perhaps the answer is to reduce the fees and let those who keep the money in savings decide how to contribute to the sport. I should think the charge for the credit card use should be per transaction, not per entry. Also, when I use a service, I don't want free merchandise. For the record, I don't open accounts with banks because ethey give me a toaster either! From my perspective, keep your Dogs Afield Dollars and reduce the fee to use the service.
> 
> Shayne, I will give you a call when I have some time--right now work is driving me crazy. It's also the silly season known as Income Tax Time. Being partnered with a tax accountant makes me nuts. I know that there are always 2 sides to everything, and that the truth lies somewhere in the middle between those 2 sides.


Vickie we have a difference of opinion on excessive profits. We are taking NEW revenue (forecasted revenue, hope we got it right) and basically splitting it with the community. I will not use that new revenue (made from ribbons, equipment, poppers, etc...) to make the entry and/or catalog divisions of our company unprofitable. That's poor business IMO.

To explain how it would make it unprofitable, EE Stacey pulled a single entry sample from our merchant bill (credit card fees) and on a $70 entry, with a certain credit card (it varies by card type) the entrant paid a total of $73, we paid a total of $3.33. Plus monthly fees and all that fun stuff. This isn't every entry or every card type, most FT entries are more than that anyway. Imagine what we lose on some $80 entries. BUT, at $3 and having the lowest possible merchant rates available, it balances out and hopefully lands in the black for us at the end of the day. At $2.50, it clearly would not. We would lose money on most online entries - even with our high volume discount rates.

To explain why it is per entry and not per transaction, 5 of those $70 entries would cost us $16.65 in credit card fees, and you would like to pay $3? Or $2.50?

I welcome your feedback and am not attempting to be argumentative, i really just wish people knew the facts before they start bashing our decisions. I hope the above clears up a few misconceptions. Even if you still do not agree, that is our logic.

Shayne Mehringer


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Credit card fees are not strictly per transaction charges. There are two components, a transaction fee ($.20-.50) and a fee that is a percentage of the transaction called the discount rate (2-4% depending upon the card). Additionally, charges made when the card isn't actually swiped (such as phone and internet transactions) are considered to be higher risk. So, the card will typically tack on another 1%. So the discount rate will be 3-5%.

So, on the low end of a $70 entry:

0.20 + .03 x 70 = $2.30

On the high end:

0.50 + .05 x 70 = $4.00

Do non profits get special rates?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> I'm about to start packing for the Triple D/Q... where i'm thankful *none of this mess is likely to be brought up*.
> 
> Shayne Mehringer


You.....ARE......_kidding_, right?????

Snowball's chance in he!! regards, 

kg


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

K G said:


> You.....ARE......_kidding_, right?????
> 
> Snowball's chance in he!! regards,
> 
> kg


Hey... i'm just goin to run the Boogie puppy, have a poboy, and eat crawfish until i have to lay on the bed to zip my jeans. (don't act like you've never done that)

I'm sure any discussion that comes up will be dog related and positive in nature.

Shayne


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Yeah.....'cept my jeans usually stayed zipped longer.......;-)

You _deserved_ that one regards,

kg


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

K G said:


> Yeah.....'cept my jeans usually stayed zipped longer.......;-)
> 
> You _deserved_ that one regards,
> 
> kg


Well played sir!

SM


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

I'm actually looking forward to meeting you in person, Shayne.

I'm only running the South La. Q.

I assume I can just look for the "dude" in the metrosexual cowboy hat and pooka shell necklace?


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Cat Squirrel said:


> I assume I can just look for the "dude" in the metrosexual cowboy hat and pooka shell necklace?


Whatever... that is soooooooooooo 2004!

SM


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Whatever... that is soooooooooooo 2004!
> 
> SM


 Yeah....Has it been that long? How time flys 

All joking and teasing aside, you're welcome to look me up if you need some local help.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

" I have a competition in me. I want no one else to succeed. I hate most people." Daniel Plainview from the movie "There Will Be Blood"

I heard this on the radio today and found out it is a movie about a man in the oilfields...sounded like it was about the field trial game 






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYW2ltW5SPo


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> " I have a competition in me. I want no one else to succeed.



As they wish you good luck on the way to the line. Ya right, I'm sure you mean that. 

I hope your dogs screws up so mine can win is the reality. As it should be. 

Two faced field trialers regards


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> " I have a competition in me. I want no one else to succeed. I hate most people." Daniel Plainview from the movie "There Will Be Blood"
> 
> I heard this on the radio today and found out it is a movie about a man in the oilfields...sounded like it was about the field trial game
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYW2ltW5SPo


I think Daniel Day-Lewis plays that role. That movie up for something like 8 Oscars, I think....

kg


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Tulsa Slim said:


> As they wish you good luck on the way to the line. Ya right, I'm sure you mean that.
> 
> I hope your dogs screws up so mine can win is the reality. As it should be.
> 
> Two faced field trialers regards


No, no, no Slim. I wish everybody good luck and mean it....


.... Good luck all the way to 2nd place.


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

Tulsa Slim said:


> As they wish you good luck on the way to the line. Ya right, I'm sure you mean that.
> 
> I hope your dogs screws up so mine can win is the reality. As it should be.
> 
> Two faced field trialers regards


I think we are well aware that a "Good Luck" from a competitor, on our way to the line, really means "I hope your dog picks up a skunk!!!"

Jerry


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

K G said:


> I think Daniel Day-Lewis plays that role. That movie up for something like 8 Oscars, I think....
> 
> kg


Movies running time is listed at 2 hours and 50 minutes...may have to wait until it comes out on DVD


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