# Chesapeake with Aggression Issue



## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

*Chesapeake with Aggression Issue - UPDATE PAGE 11*

Forgive me in advance for my very long post, but I'm in a very tough spot and want to be thorough as possible as I seek the opinions of experienced retriever folks.

I have an 19 month old intact Chesapeake male. He has completed basics, including TT and swimby, is into transition and has just begun cold blinds. Obedience is good. He is a hard charger, high prey drive, smart with lots of stamina. He comes from high quality field trial lines with well known parentage (Crackshot Ben There Done That is sire, dam is a Blaze daughter). Both parents are house dogs as well as trial.

Over the past months as he entered adolescence, he has developed dominance (or so I believe) and food related aggression issues. He has never shown any aggression towards other dogs or other people. In fact, he is very outgoing socially, and is not at all possessive of his toys or nylabones. He was well socialized as a pup, with both people and other animals. I live in Los Angeles, so he has been exposed to a great variety of environments, and does well in them all.

At about 15 months of age, I noticed one evening that he was limping/pacing, holding his front paw up off the ground, favoring it heavily and obviously in discomfort. When I went to examine his paw, he growled at me -- he would not let me near the injured leg/paw. It appeared that his paw pad was torn, but I couldn't get a good look. He licked it all night in his crate, but by morning, he was no longer limping and was walking fine. I assumed that it was injury/pain aggression that had caused him to growl.

At 16 months of age, he was on his bed (in living room, not in his crate where he mostly lives) but with his head up and alert. I approached him and bent over to pet him. He stiffened as I tried to push him over to pet his stomach, and then growled. Without any physical form of control over him, I backed off and tried to diffuse the situation by calling him to the door and making him sit as if to go out. He did so with his tail wagging. I put his pinch collar on and did some easy heeling, praising him for his good work, and then I put him in a down-stay on his bed (in hindsight, a poor choice). I misread him at this point, assuming he was fine in his down-stay, but he obviously was not -- still very stressed, breaking his stay and trying to run past me towards his crate. I was sitting on a footstool and gave him a verbal "eh!" for breaking, and as he passed me, he got "trapped" by furniture and he responded by biting my arm. 

Believing it to be a dominance issue, I responded by upping the level of general control over all aspects of his general life (already a very controlled life) and continued to further reinforce the established pack structure in daily life (he "earns" everything). I am very familiar with the Leerburg material and the NILIF program. Basically, except for exercise and training, he was in his crate, so I had no idea whether these efforts were helping the issue or not as I did not test him in the same situation that prompted the bite.

I also began collaring him to the post on the force fetch table and touching him all over. At first, he was not comfortable in this restrained position (I force fetched him on the ground), but has gotten much better and now enjoys it. Initially, when I lifted his front paws, he would begin to show warning signs -- nose twitching or body stiffening. I taught him to "shake" with both paws with food rewards and he now has no problem with me handling his paws (he was touched and handled regularly as a puppy to prepare for vet exams, etc.) So there was some progress in modifying his behavior.

My layman thinking is that this behavior is a combination of an adolescent male challenging my authority along with perhaps a negative association from the injury which triggers it (when he growled at me with pain aggression, he learned that he could control/dominate me in that situation).

A week ago (at 19 months of age), we returned from a long day of field training. As is customary, I fed him in the corner of the kitchen, with him sit-staying as always before receiving his meal. Because he had started to show food aggression by stiffening or even growling a bit when I got close to him, I just leave him alone as he inhales his meal in 20 seconds or so. In this instance, I reached over behind him for a paper towel and inadvertently pushed a chair into his rear, pushing him aside. He stiffened and growled and I immediately backed away. As I did so, I knocked over an empty plastic trash bin that was sitting in the kitchen. He then growled much louder, turned away from his partially eaten meal, and came around the table at me (maybe 10 feet from his dish). I was able to kick the trash bin into him to slow him down, and then grabbed a vacuum cleaner to put between us. I sent him to his crate and he complied.

Obviously, this is a serious situation; I am well aware of that. I have researched this as best as I can and talked to as many trusted dog people as I can. Opinions range, but the consensus is that he is exhibiting dominant behavior, testing my place in the pack structure. I've been around the breed for a long time and such behavior (testing, not biting) is not uncommon for a Chessie adolescent, but this situation is new to me and is clearly unacceptable. The food aggression issue, or "resource guarding" as it is now referred to, can easily be managed by feeding him in his crate, but that won't eliminate the underlying tendency. I've read about a whole variety of approaches to dealing with it.

From everything that I've learned, neutering him won't solve the present aggression issues, though most agree that neutering him is advisable as it can often decrease the overall drives that may lead to further unwanted behaviors. Again, I don't believe this is a testosterone issue, but other than cost, there is no likely downside.

I live in a small home and do not have children. However, I do have a fiance that is not a dog trainer, and I certainly do not feel comfortable putting her in a position of managing a dog with known issues, even if for only a day when I'm out of town.

I feel like I have 3 options:

(1) Keep the dog. Neuter him and seek the help of a trainer specializing in aggression to work to rehabilitate/modify the existing behavior. Finding such a specialist is hard -- as there are many, many trainers claiming to specialize in aggression that don't seem to know much at all. (I have learned through my research that dog aggression seems to be a very misunderstood condition, with opinions varying even more widely than on most subjects. If anyone knows of somebody they'd recommend in Southern California, please let me know.) The problem with this option is even though I may be committed to working with him and taking the calculated risk that comes with knowing he can never be trusted 100%, my fiance cannot be expected to do the same. I would be raising the dog separately from us, with him not integrated into our life together.

(2) Re-home the dog. Neuter him and place him with an experienced individual who can provide a controlled environment, modify/manage his behavior, and give him the work he needs. I assume there is such a person/place for him, but I have no idea how to find it. Perhaps somebody here can help or has suggestions. I'm also aware of Chessie rescue.

(3) Euthanize the dog.

The breeder will not take the dog back because it has bitten, and would present a liability issue. She also said she is unable to place a dog that has bitten. So she would have to euthanize the dog.

I had his hips and elbows x-rayed to rule out a medical condition and they were fine. He has a thyroid test out awaiting results.

I'm heartbroken, of course, as I'm deeply invested in him emotionally. We have trained countless hours together and he has a wonderful attitude, loves to learn, loves to work and loves to play. He's my only dog. I'm trying my hardest to make the best and most responsible decision in this very unfortunate situation. I have tried to view my situation objectively and without bias, and I honestly believe the dog's issues can be overcome and that he can thrive in the proper environment with the proper individual. But that is just my well-researched opinion. Whether it's possible to find such a situation, I have no idea.

I haven't posted much on RTF, but I visit almost daily and have learned a lot from you folks. I appreciate any advice or suggestions from the experienced trainers that I see posting here.

Thanks.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I hope one of our resident Chessie experts chimes in here. I personally don't have any advise for you, I am only posting my support due to your open minded objectivity regarding what seems to be a serious problem with your dog. I think most folks continue down a long path of denial until way too late, you seem much more open minded and sincerely concerned than that. I hope you get some good advise and it works out well for you and your dog.

John


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## surferdave (May 24, 2010)

I'd be interested in seeing how the thyroid test comes up. He definitely seems to be having an imbalance. I think your avoidance of situations that might bring up the aggression might be making it worse. At this point are you able to pet him, pull his food away, and approach him while eating? Good luck, I hope everything turns out well.


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## ducky911 (Apr 3, 2006)

Hi,

I have no advise, but thought I would post that I enjoyed reading your post and beleave that you are a very good dog owner. I wish you the best on working this out.

Bob


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RWB said:


> ...As is customary, I fed him in the corner of the kitchen, with him sit-staying as always before receiving his meal....


Could you elaborate on the above sentence?


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

If you choose to work with an aggression specialist your fiance will HAVE to be involved for her own safety... If you or she is not willing for her to be involved than youll need to rehome or euthanize him. Its a double edged sword because every time you have backed away (and cant blame you) it has reinforced the behaviour. That said I commend you for trying everything you have done so far.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

My advice, since you asked for advice is..............be cautious about internet advice about correcting this particular behavior with this particular dog. Unless someone can actually see and work with this dog they cannot possibly give meaningful input on why he is behaving this way. Anything less than a "hands on" approach from someone who is well experienced with aggressive dog behavior is just guess work and I'm sure your not the type of person who is looking for guesses. 

I hope someone on this site will be able to direct you to such an individual in your area but please be careful........not all aggression specialists are created equal. 

I too appreciate your thoughtful and well documented accounting of your problems with this dog. You are obviously a responsible person and the dog is fortunate to have someone like yourself as a caregiver. Sounds to me like he is worth some efforts around this. Best of luck to the both of you.


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## Richard Fuquay (Jun 4, 2006)

I have a four year old male Chessie who had some dominance/aggression issues that we have successfully dealt with. One big difference is that my dog did not have any food aggression issues. I believe that our problem was pack leadership based and with some hard work things have resolved. We neutered Mac and put him through dominance bootcamp. Started from scratch on all of the little actions, making him wait when we go through doors, no getting on furniture etc. We also hired an obedience trainer who worked with my wife. Getting past this was imperative since my dog weighs 120 lbs and is larger than my wife. In hindsight i think my dog wanted me to take charge and to be put in his place in the pack. I have no idea what the food aggression angle adds to the equation. If you are going to work through this one piece of advice I have is to immediately quit backing down from him. If not I think it will get worse real fast.


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## Connie Swanson (May 31, 2005)

I would love to hear some other folks' response to my suggestion, but 1st:

we've had chessies for years; no dog of any breed should behave the way your boy is. The only really bad biting issue we dealt with was a family who had a young male chessie who began to fear-bite. I agreed to check him out & was bitten w/ no warning after a few days of very careful gentle exploration w/ him. The family had little children, the dog had bitten or tried to bite strangers, & the family reluctantly decided to euthanize him- a brave, difficult, but responsible decision: fear-biting is very difficult to fix with any degree of certainty.

It doesn't sound like yours is a fear-biting case. The only trainer whom I have seen sucessfully work with aggressive dogs is Cesar Milan, the "Dog Whisperer," whose methods make huge sense to me-- he seems to really understand & read dogs well, no nonsense. Granted, most of the dogs' problems are owner-caused, & it sounds like you are not in the same class as most of his clients, but he is in SoCal, & you might check him out-- maybe if you get on the show you don't have to pay anything? 

it's worth a try to save your dog; Milan fascinates me-- I've learned alot by watching his show, & am interested in any other forum folks opinion about him....

good luck: don't give up yet, but something has to change..

Connie


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

RWB, I am really sorry to hear that your guy has this problem. I hope it turns out to be thyroid related so that you can put him on some medication.

I am really sorry you have to go through this. It sounds like you have tried very hard to do everything right.

Juli


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I'd like to add one thing to my above post...

It is really unfortunate you were not able to get a correction in the times your dog was able to successfully act aggressively toward you. Essentially (even though you did not intend for it to happen) these occurrences have only helped 'cement' into your dog's head that he can be dominant over you...The charging (which you backed down from), the bite, the growling....each time he has gotten away with these behaviors, he has 'won'...Just not a good thing...


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## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Originally Posted by RWB
> ...As is customary, I fed him in the corner of the kitchen, with him sit-staying as always before receiving his meal....
> 
> 
> Could you elaborate on the above sentence?


His food and water bowl are in a corner of the kitchen. When he gets fed, he sits and waits until I put the bowl down and I release him. Not much more to it than that... Just pointing out that it's a structured event and always has been.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RWB said:


> His food and water bowl are in a corner of the kitchen. When he gets fed, he sits and waits until I put the bowl down and I release him. Not much more to it than that... Just pointing out that it's a structured event and always has been.


I have had a similar experience with a Lab. I'm not jumping to any conclusions about your situation, but I believe my attempts to "structure" feeding time, had the opposite effect that I intended.

I have a couple more questions.

When you put the food down, do/did you require the dog to wait for an amount of time, before giving the release command?

Do/did you stop the dog during eating, by giving the sit command, and then release him to continue eating?


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## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> I have had a similar experience with a Lab. I'm not jumping to any conclusions about your situation, but I believe my attempts to "structure" feeding time, had the opposite effect that I intended.
> 
> I have a couple more questions.
> 
> ...


I never interrupted his meal with a command. But I, too, have considered that the "structured" feeding has brought on the opposite effect. Instead of asserting control, it may only increase the drive and desire for the food, leading to possessiveness. When he was very young, I would take his food away for a beat or stick my hand in the bowl, and as he matured, it only increased his frenzied eating, so I stopped doing it.

And yes, when hew was younger, I would make him wait longer than a few seconds (10-20?, I don't know) after putting it down, which easily could have the opposite effect, as you suggest. Never a minute or anything, but enough for him to value the meal that much more -- which in hindsight could very well have contributed to the food aggression.

So you may very well be on to something in this regard.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

I've only had food aggression with one dog but here goes:
1) feed the dog on lead standing by the dog's side-it may not eat the first day or so
2)feed outside and in the open (CBRs especially are protective of space)
3)once the dog is eating on lead have the dog heel away from the food
4) any sign of aggression immediately put dog in a submissive position,once calm
5) take the dog back to eat
6) eventually do with check cord calling the dog away from food, then e-collar

It took a couple weeks but eventually obedience triumphed over possession.

Tim


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Connie Swanson said:


> I would love to hear some other folks' response to my suggestion, but 1st:
> 
> we've had chessies for years; no dog of any breed should behave the way your boy is. The only really bad biting issue we dealt with was a family who had a young male chessie who began to fear-bite. I agreed to check him out & was bitten w/ no warning after a few days of very careful gentle exploration w/ him. The family had little children, the dog had bitten or tried to bite strangers, & the family reluctantly decided to euthanize him- a brave, difficult, but responsible decision: fear-biting is very difficult to fix with any degree of certainty.
> 
> ...


I would agree completely with this suggestion. 

In my opinion, Ceasar Milan has the best handle on the human/canine relationship than anyone I know, or have ever heard of. His results (on the show at least) are nothing short of amazing.

Worth a try and probably your very best bet at getting this situation resolved satisfactorily for both you and your dog.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

My wife had a lab that developed aggression problems more towards other dogs then people but it became worse as time went on she had her checked out by the vet they couldn't find anything wrong with her until they did an MRI and found she had a large brain tumor they ended up putting her down, I hope that's not the case with your dog but it maybe something you want to check out it sounds like you have done a good job researching this type of behavior and I'm sure what ever you decide to do with him will be the right choice.


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## Pupknuckle (Aug 15, 2008)

Connie Swanson said:


> I would love to hear some other folks' response to my suggestion, but 1st:
> 
> we've had chessies for years; no dog of any breed should behave the way your boy is. The only really bad biting issue we dealt with was a family who had a young male chessie who began to fear-bite. I agreed to check him out & was bitten w/ no warning after a few days of very careful gentle exploration w/ him. The family had little children, the dog had bitten or tried to bite strangers, & the family reluctantly decided to euthanize him- a brave, difficult, but responsible decision: fear-biting is very difficult to fix with any degree of certainty.
> 
> ...


I work with dogs for a living and have never seen anyone like Cesar Milan. I agree w/Connie. He is truly amazing.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RWB said:


> ...Instead of asserting control, it may only increase the drive and desire for the food, leading to possessiveness. When he was very young, I would take his food away for a beat or stick my hand in the bowl, and as he matured, it only increased his frenzied eating, so I stopped doing it.
> 
> And yes, when hew was younger, I would make him wait longer than a few seconds (10-20?, I don't know) after putting it down, which easily could have the opposite effect, as you suggest. Never a minute or anything, but enough for him to value the meal that much more -- which in hindsight could very well have contributed to the food aggression....


That mirrors my experience.

I can't tell you what to do. Maybe my dog wasn't wired right in the head. I'll never know for sure.

I will tell you what I do know.

Neutering made absolutely no difference. Direct pressure corrections, made it significantly worse, and he never "got away" with an aggressive behavior against me.

Indirect pressure, via HEEL-nick-HEEL, seemed to work, but the aggression would resurface at any time. At least the indirect corrections didn't make it any worse.

Over time, the aggression moved to other possessions. It also increased towards other people.


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## eazy89 (Nov 27, 2007)

Juli H said:


> I'd like to add one thing to my above post...
> 
> It is really unfortunate you were not able to get a correction in the times your dog was able to successfully act aggressively toward you. Essentially (even though you did not intend for it to happen) these occurrences have only helped 'cement' into your dog's head that he can be dominant over you...The charging (which you backed down from), the bite, the growling....each time he has gotten away with these behaviors, he has 'won'...Just not a good thing...


I couldn't agree more...I've been around an aggressive chessie and in new situations if the handler didn't deal with the aggressiveness immediately with force then the dog would continue the behavior. I'm not an expert but chessies are known to test dominance through their entire life span. He always said if he went easy on the dog for one second then the dog would try to take control.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I don't know that chessies try to 'test for dominance'...or are looking for ways to establish it...But they will take advantage of 'holes'..this doesn't necessarily mean they will be aggressive - it just means they are very aware of the relationships around them and like to 'fill a hole' if they find one. 
An example is how I must always be on guard with my dog for wanting to step on my foot - this is especially true when he is very excited or trying to be in control on the line...He _tries_, and I try to be 100% consistent in stepping firmly on HIS foot when he does it. LOL

Juli


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

eazy89 said:


> I couldn't agree more...I've been around an aggressive chessie and in new situations if the handler didn't deal with the aggressiveness immediately with force then the dog would continue the behavior. I'm not an expert but chessies are known to test dominance through their entire life span. He always said if he went easy on the dog for one second then the dog would try to take control.


So in comparison, how are Chessie's in general with kids vs a lab? I only ask because I have considered getting one in the far future. Is aggression usually a problem with them?


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## bulletman (Nov 4, 2009)

I read your thread and it is EXACTLY what I just went through. PM me, I can give my number to call me if you like .

Todd


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

Thanks Julie. We must have been typing at the same time.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Connie Swanson said:


> I would love to hear some other folks' response to my suggestion, but 1st:
> 
> we've had chessies for years; no dog of any breed should behave the way your boy is. The only really bad biting issue we dealt with was a family who had a young male chessie who began to fear-bite. I agreed to check him out & was bitten w/ no warning after a few days of very careful gentle exploration w/ him. The family had little children, the dog had bitten or tried to bite strangers, & the family reluctantly decided to euthanize him- a brave, difficult, but responsible decision: fear-biting is very difficult to fix with any degree of certainty.
> 
> ...


as i was reading your original post and before i read connie's comments, i said to my wife, "this guy is in southern cali why doesn't he just call ceasar." 

i enjoy his show. i have even used the shh! with two fingers in the ribs to break the mental state of a maniac lab in a holding blind at a test. i would assume cesear probably has several "little ceasars" who help him with non televised situations or at least could refer you to another local expert.

i do think a highly trained chessie with aggression issues that runs 300 yard marks and handles cold blinds would amaze viewers and be better tv than another nipping lap dog.


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## Leslie B (Jul 3, 2009)

Lots of good advise above. For my 2 cents worth:

1. Get a pro - no matter what. Cesar is the best and he is located in LA.
2. Internet advise is worthless when you are alone with the dog and he is aggressive to you.
3. Get your fiance involved now before you decide anything. If she cannot handle the dog you might have only one choice.
4. Backing down has reinforced his aggression. It is the one thing in his life that has worked for him.
5. Taking food away in mid meal can create food aggression and eating problems. If a dog appears to be food dominant I start by hand feeding the whole meal. Every bite he eats comes from my hand - as much as he wants. Gradually I put small amounts of kibble in the bowl while I sit with him. 
6. Too much structure can be just as bad for dogs as too little. If he has not had opportunity to figure anything out by himself then the uncertainty of a new situation could be overwhelming.

Good Luck and keep us posted.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I would like to know who your chessie is out of.


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## bulletman (Nov 4, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> I would like to know who your chessie is out of.


He comes from high quality field trial lines with well known parentage (Crackshot Ben There Done That is sire, dam is a Blaze daughter). Both parents are house dogs as well as trial.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Nice breeding. Blaze a great chessie. Aggressiveness might be a learned response.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

I hope this is helpful. Every male Chessie I've owned has tried to boss me one day or another when their testosterone kicks in normally between ages 1 and 2. They will refuse to do something, sit, lie down, go back in your kennel, etc. Then the fight begins. I demand compliance and they refuse. I will force them to comply and in that physical struggle there will be resistance. If the dog growls at me, and it usually comes to that, I physically dominate that dog. My last dog did not lift his head up off the floor until I said OK. In this situation you have backed off and the dog knows he's gotten the upper hand. I think you are dealing with a dominant dog who is testosterone driven, and I would neuter him because he's willing to bite. I also think there is a fear factor here in that when surprised by events, his fear turns aggressive. I don't have any experience with that, except to say get him out and about a lot. Walk this dog in the downtown, very structured but in environments where he is going to get a ton of stimulus. If he appears uneasy, just calmy reassure him and keep walking along. But you want an environment with noise and commotion, so he gets more used to the unexpected. Socialize, socialize, socialize, it's not too late. In fact, this winter my 2 1/2 year old will be going to obedience classes, not because he doesn't know his 
ABC's but he needs to be exposed to more varied situations where he is out of his comfort zone and I have more comfort in his ability to handle it.


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## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

Tim Carrion said:


> I've only had food aggression with one dog but here goes:
> 1) feed the dog on lead standing by the dog's side-it may not eat the first day or so
> 2)feed outside and in the open (CBRs especially are protective of space)
> 3)once the dog is eating on lead have the dog heel away from the food
> ...


Thanks for the advice, Tim. To elaborate, when heeling the dog away from the food, if he growls or shows any sign of aggression, what exactly would be the "submissive position" to put him in? Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but people keep telling me that I need to correct the dog when aggressive, but it can be a difficult task if the level of a aggression is high.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

RWB I recommend working with someone who is a professional who can appropriately read the dog. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish. Don't forget that the dog may teach you a lesson instead of the other way around. I have sent you a message.


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## Josh Ward (Sep 10, 2003)

> Ignorance abounds....Shawn, "Mrs Ward" was directed towards Sarah...my grandmother passed away 15 years ago, YOU are NOT worthy enough to kiss her feet, let alone cock off in that manner regarding her. DO NOT EVER do it again, you understand me??


This is dead on accurate


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Not offering any advice. Aggressive dog issues should not be remedied over the internet.
Just an observation/comment/pet peeve………

I simply do not get why soooooooooooo many people want to mess with their dog during feeding time.
It is a concept I just cannot wrap my mind around. I feed 3 intact male Chesapeakes together on the kitchen floor.
Each in his own corner. I prepare all the dishes on the counter and plop them down one at a time, in the corner they are used to and say their name. For the pup, any pup I blow my come in whistle as I am setting it down and say pups name. I have done this with up to 5 Chesapeakes at a time. All the folk who make the dog sit, or heel to or from, or lay down or stand on its head and beg. Just feed your dog and let it be. You’re making the issue. So many different issues, I have seen, that all came from just messing with your dogs food.

Second, I never back down. The Chesapeake will test you. Find out what it can get away with. See how well it is training YOU!
A Chessie does something once, it is an experiment, second time it is reinforcement, and third time it is a full blown habit. You have backed down from this dog 3 times. Reading the original post, and I apologize but this is what I was thinking while reading. I was thinking maybe you were a small frame female. Until I got to the fiancé is a her part. Sir, you cannot back down, ever.
Like the look at the paw story, Your mind needs to go to “It’s MY PAW!” Like Piemay grabbing Kiddo’s hand in Kill Bill.
Or the empty trash can story, a trash can is better than a 2x4 ‘cause it is loud when walloped. Perfect correction tool.

So now instead of a Chessie growing up and testing the dominant member of the pack, seeing what he can get away with. And settling into a lower rung on the ladder. You now have a Chessie who is already on the top, having defeated you 3 times. You will not fix this over the keyboard. I wish you the best of luck.






.


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

I wish you luck, you have a hard road ahead of you. I really don't have any advice, just here to give moral support. You have received some great advice so far, I agree with Connie Swanson, Ken Bora and a few in between. Reading some of the opinions, it reminded me of an observation I made while feeding our boy who wolfs his food, the more we messed with his food the faster he ate. Now, we fill his bowl, he is sitting, set it down and leave the room. He is now eating normally. He is not however aggressive in anyway.

I can tell you from experience before you do anything where there might be a struggle, mentally ask yourself am I ready to possibly be....? Then based on your answer proceed. I really do wish you luck!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

RWB

The thing that needs to happen is having an experienced trainer who works with aggression to come to your home and evaluate the dog and also you.

There are individuals in all breeds that behave like yours. So its not just a chessie thing. It may happen more frequently in chessie's than some of the other breeds but its not a chessie thing.

I too would see if you can get a hold of Caesar Millian he is one of the few I respect in this field of behavior modification,,he's just not a TV star, He has probably branched out and has trained others in your area how to deal with behavioral problems. I'm sure he gets way to many calls from people who just want to blab but have no intentions of doing anything so keep that in mind. Along with that it will be costly. It can run up to a few thousand if you choose to send him off and then be trained when the dog is done.. So if you do get a hold of him be prepared for that. If thats too much to invest don't bother him,, unless maby if you get to be on TV

If you can't get a hold of him and if you need some advice from someone who does this for a living,,I'd be glad to talk to you over the phone and get you moving in the right direction.

Pete


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I recommend you dont take my advice or anyone else over this forum on this issue, but I was reading another post on an aggressive dog, cant remember if it was a lab or chessie or what. The one reply that has always stuck with me was posted by Leddyman.... it was something to the effect of "If you show me your teeth in MY house I will do everything in my power to knock them out, dog or otherwise." It is something I took to heart, and instructed my wife to do if our boy even gets a big head. Easy to say with a 75 lb lab, may require the use of some tools on a 120 lb chessie.


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## Jason B (Sep 1, 2009)

I really enjoyed reading this and all of the responses. To call me a trainer would be a joke. I have only trained one lab and he is about 70% complete to where I want him. So, take my opinion for what it is worth. 

I have to agree with Ken. When it's feeding time I don't mess with my dog(s). Not beccause I am afraid of them, but because they have earned that food in one way or another and I feel they need to be left alone to enjoy it. I do occasionally just walk by and say good boy Zeke and run my hand across his body, but I don't do it often. 

What are you going to do if your dog gets somethiing in his mouth that will kill him? How are you going to TAKE that from him? I also believe he already has the upper hand with you. In the three times he challenged you, he has won. His next challenge based on his wins, will make him even more determined to win the next one. 

One time when Zeke was about 6 months old i was throwing frozen birds to him. I did this monthly just so he had the exposure while training. One day he runs to it, brings it to me and as I reach to get it, he chomps down on it refusing to release. With me being a new trainer, not knowing how to handle the situation, I kinda walked away for a second to gather my thoughts in my little pea brain. I figured if i turned and walked away that he would bring it to me. He did. And as I started to grab it, he growled and snapped at me. I was pizzed. I grabbed his muzzle, mashed his gums into his teeth and lifted up on his mouth and took the bird. I held him like that for about 5 seconds to further emphasize to him that HE WILL NOT WIN. He's never even thought about it again. 

Now granted, this was a 52 pound lab at the time, but the point still remains. You can not let him win. Once he does, in my opinion, you are screwed. Dogs learn people and those people weakness. I fear that now that your weakness is defined, it will be exploited until YOU win.


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## Susie Royer (Feb 4, 2005)

Ken Bora said:


> Just an observation/comment/pet peeve………
> I simply do not get why soooooooooooo many people want to mess with their dog during feeding time. It is a concept I just cannot wrap my mind around. I feed 3 intact male Chesapeakes together on the kitchen floor. Each in his own corner. I prepare all the dishes on the counter and plop them down one at a time, in the corner they are used to and say their name.


One of my biggest pet peeves as well. I've probably had 18 CBRs come through our door (including rescue fosters) and I have yet had a food aggressive CBR. I don't have a large enough kitchen to feed five dawgs LOL however, everyone is fed in their crate and left a lone. 



copterdoc said:


> I have had a similar experience with a Lab. I'm not jumping to any conclusions about your situation, but I believe my attempts to "structure" feeding time, had the opposite effect that I intended.


From my experience in CBR rescue it can have an "opposite effect".


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

RWB,
I have to give you props, it sounds like you really want to do the right thing and because of your thoughtful posts, this is one of the best threads on aggression I've ever read. No finger pointing or blaming breed or owner and plenty of good suggestions, the most important of which is that you won't be able to fix this over the internet.

Just because Tim Carrion was able to fix a food-aggressive young thug by leashing him and feeding him outside, does not mean this will work for yours. Believe me I know Tim and I'm quite sure he was easily able to make this work, because he can read when a dog is ready to give up and submit probably even before the dog itself knew. I'm assuming you did your own force fetch from your post? and wondering if you ever have any trouble with him retrieving especially live or freshly shot game; I suspect there are holes in him somewhere as if you did the FF and he's still challenging you, then you have more work to do.

I happen to agree whole-heartedly with Ken on food aggression though, it's a mostly owner-created problem. And I've had probably close to two dozen Peakes pass through my life, including a few spoiled brats about the age your dog is now. Typical owner surrender is a male 18-36 mos. that has escalated his posturing into trouble. I've never had a problem with food aggression, _because I leave the dog alone when it eats_ and it quickly learns that not only am I the source of the goods, I protect the dog from anyone messing with it when it eats. 

It's my belief that many pups, especially Chesapeakes, arrive at their new homes ready to do battle over the food dish, because they had to fight for their share with their littermates. Once they realize that they don't need to fight anymore, and that you will protect them from any other dogs or people messing with them, they calm right down. I even do this with known food aggression cases--leave them alone til they relax and realize no one is going to try and pet them or take their dish away. Once they relax about their food, and have had a little obedience boot camp, I can and will call them away from their food dish if needed, but I ***never*** try to pet them or take their food away for no reason while they're eating. If I happen to set the wrong bowl down, or need to add something to the dish, I just call the dog to heel and calmly do what needs to be done. I think the key here is if you are not intimidated by the dog, it ceases to try and menace you.

Right now I have two CBRs that were victims of no socialization/training before they came here. One is puppy I bred that I bought back at 9 mos. as the owner said she was aggressive. She's now 22 mos., FF, CC, etc., socialization is ongoing but I've never seen any signs of aggression from her, although she's still initially suspicious of certain new people and dogs. The other is 7 and vastly improved in the 5 mos. she's been here, but was a kennel dog far longer than the youngster. So she'll likely never be a social butterfly going up to strangers like a Walmart greeter as my other dogs do. Her saving grace is though she's skittish of new people, she doesn't have a mean bone in her body, she's the polar opposite of alpha, whatever that is (beta? omega?) No one who's ever met her could ever conceive of her biting a human or other dog in fear or otherwise. Socialization, obedience and regular training have been the key to making both better dogs.

Since there's a fiance in the picture, and it sounds like your dog is becoming emboldened by his tub thumping, please seriously consider all the suggestions to get real hands on help in favor of trying to fix this over the internet. I too would love to see you and your CBR on Cesar's show! but I'm sure you can find someone equally competent via him or recommendations you get. Sounds like the problems are right up Cesar's alley and I'll bet he (and staff) enjoy working with thoughtful owners that are truly dedicated to training and working their dogs; must be a refreshing change from those that carry their nasty little yappers around in purses, refuse to ever punish them and egg them on to act hatefully. 

Just make sure you do your homework as the field of animal behavior is loaded with blowhards, quacks, losers and clickers n treats pet trainers who think books and the internet can solve all problems. Not true--so much of this is intuition and really being able to read a dog and dog-owner interaction and not being afraid to do the right, not the PC thing. Prime example--that simpering British moron with the tight leather pants on TV who advocates all positive reinforcement and never punishing a dog. Eeeek!! I'd like to sic a bunch of slavering hungry hyenas on her to shut her up.

In sum, yours isn't a breed-specific problem, it's a common result of choosing to live with hunting breeds that we select for prey drive and high energy levels. I wish you luck and hope you'll report back to us on what you do since this has been such a good educational thread.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

txfour said:


> I also believe he already has the upper hand with you. In the three times he challenged you, he has won. His next challenge based on his wins, will make him even more determined to win the next one....


This stood out to me enough, that I need to comment on it.

This whole "he won, so next time it will be worse" statement really bothers me. I'm not saying it has no truth. However, it also isn't the whole truth.

From my experience with a food aggressive dog, I can say with absolute certainty, that once that "switch" has been flipped to "mean mode", it doesn't matter whether you get the dog to "submit" to an "alpha-roll", beat it with a stick till it gives up, or shock it with a cattle prod until it is cowering in the corner.

If you get a dog to the point of aggression, by whatever "trigger" it has, you have already failed to "dominate" the dog.

The next time, it will be easier to trigger the aggression, and it will be more severe. The more extreme your previous reaction was, the more extreme it will need to be the next time. It's a vicious circle, that will continue to escalate with each occurrence.


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## fetchtx (May 12, 2005)

I have trained quite a few CBR's over the years and all of them were attached to one person in the family, which is a trait of the breed. I had a good friend with a very talented one (needed 1/2 pt for FC) which was all amt trained, however if he corrected the dog with e collar the dog charged him from field, twice with serious injuries (tendons torn out, many stitches). Needless to say the dog was neutered. I agree about not taking any advice from online opinions.
Please remember when it comes to temperament issues, the ONLY one that enjoys dealing with those issues are Lawyers, so I hope you invest in some insurance promptly.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

fetchtx said:


> I have trained quite a few CBR's over the years and all of them were attached to one person in the family, which is a trait of the breed. * I had a good friend with a very talented one (needed 1/2 pt for FC) which was all amt trained, however if he corrected the dog with e collar the dog charged him from field, twice with serious injuries (tendons torn out, many stitches). * Needless to say the dog was neutered. I agree about not taking any advice from online opinions.
> Please remember when it comes to temperament issues, the ONLY one that enjoys dealing with those issues are Lawyers, so I hope you invest in some insurance promptly.


Those were injuries to the owner?!? I'm an big softy when it comes to dealing with dogs, but if that happened to me I don't know what I'd do, I know it would be a lot more than just taking him to the vet to be neutered.

The problem with the internet is we don't know the degree of this problem. Did the dog just growl and the owner overreacted, or was it a definate intimidation deal? Get local pro help, that Cesar guy would be great if that's a posibility.

John


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Bye the way this is not a chessie problem. I have encountered other breeds that are aggressive. I had my chessie in a holding blind on two different occassions when two different labs came after my chessie. They exhibited aggressiveness not the chessie. Chessies get a bad rap and I don't like it. If you see me you are welcomed to come over and get licked by a chessie.


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## Reddiamondlabs (Apr 1, 2010)

Call Adam Bush at defined obedience at 919-609-9014; He is a Certified Master Trainer.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

fetchtx said:


> I have trained quite a few CBR's over the years and all of them were attached to one person in the family, which is a trait of the breed. I had a good friend with a very talented one (needed 1/2 pt for FC) which was all amt trained, however if he corrected the dog with e collar the dog charged him from field, twice with serious injuries (tendons torn out, many stitches). Needless to say the dog was neutered. I agree about not taking any advice from online opinions.
> Please remember when it comes to temperament issues, the ONLY one that enjoys dealing with those issues are Lawyers, so I hope you invest in some insurance promptly.


That dog would be DRT....


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## Pigger (Jun 12, 2010)

I know several guys that have had chessies and about 1/2 of them have had some kind of agression issues. One had to be put down because of it. I'm not here to bash the breed. Matter of fact I believe they could be the absolute best breed for waterfowl hunting. Especially when the weather is extreme.

I considered a CBR recently but after weighing my options I decided to go with another lab. I feel that the risks with a chessie may outweigh the benefits. We're picking up our lab pup on the 28th. 

Some of the chessies I have hunted with over the years were phenominal dogs. I just didn't like the fact that they were so territorial and all. My buddy had a good one but he emphasized for me not to try and pet her while she was in the back of his truck. 

Like I said, I absolutely love the breed for hunting but a chessie just wasn't for me.


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

savage25xtreme said:


> That dog would be DRT....


Excuse my ignorance but does DRT mean? Thank you!


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## lizard55033 (Mar 10, 2008)

I'm guess DRT is "Dead Right There"?


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

lizard55033 said:


> I'm guess DRT is "Dead Right There"?


correct....


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

If any dog I owned bit me or anyone in my family, it would be DRT!!


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

its easy for us to say, tough to do when you have so much blood, sweat, tears, and LOVE in a dog.

sorry to drag this great post slightly off topic, I truly hope you get your chessie straightened out.


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

savage25xtreme said:


> correct....



Thank you! Yes, sorry for getting off topic! I do wish you the best!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I say thanks to everyone who has been honest about their experiences. Not easy to admit you've made mistakes or had an aggressive dog. Most people hide it like a disease. 

Wish you the best correcting the issue. Try to find a field pro who understands Peakes. You and only you need to be instructed/taught how to work him in and through difficult situations. Having someone else do it for you won't work on a Chessie. 

Get him a kennel and let him live in it either in your garage or outside. Don't let him set foot in the house to relax. He thinks he runs the place from your description. That will be the first route to you making the rules. You will control when and what he does. This will also protect your wife and you until you and her get a grip on the issue.

All the best-


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I think you need to seriously consider getting rid of this dog since you are concerned about your fiance already. If this dog lives out his natural life he will probably be with you 8-10 more years. Will your finace be able to deal with this dog? The dog has bitten you already. He should be treated as a potential bitter the rest of his life.

There are trainers that can "correct" the problems you describe. Can you, your finace, children in the future???, maintain the control the trainers can?

I think you need to either find an appropriate home for this dog. Or, put the dog down. I realize you have put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into this animal. Will you ever be able to fully trust this animal? Will you be the sole caretaker of this animal for the next 8-10 years? 
No dog is worth risking injury to a person.

I have stood in your shoes as far as deciding the fate of a chessie goes. I chose to put the animal down. It was a hard decision to make. It cost my wife and I friendships in the chessie breed. We would make the same decision again, we have never second guessed that decision. We have looked back at things prior to her biting that should have set off alarms for us. We learn from our mistakes and move forward.

Tom


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## Tarball (Aug 12, 2010)

Shoot it!..........before someone gets hurt.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Tarball said:


> Shoot it!..........before someone gets hurt.


 
See why everyone here takes all the advice given on the internet?


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## Tarball (Aug 12, 2010)

When a 6 year old has a big scar on her face, and the county health dept
requires you to keep the dog's head in your freezer...............

until it is tested..........then you will understand why it needs to
be put down. With all the line breeding and backyard crap
that is out there.............you will understand why "ruthless"
is important.

About ...........homeowners insurance..........
"Do you have one of those primitive Chessies?"


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Tarball said:


> When a 6 year old has a big scar on her face, and the county health dept
> requires you to keep the dog's head in your freezer...............
> 
> until it is tested..........then you will understand why it needs to
> ...


 
Obviously you haven't read much of this thread. Are you calling the breeding a "Back yard breeding"? I think you'll have some quick clarification on that- by a few of the best breeders in the business.

And no- I actually have "two of those primitive chessies" their primitive registered names are listed in my signature. you can look them up here.....http://www.chessieinfo.net/pp_search.htm

Do the same with the breeding in question- or not, you'd have to actually go read the post.


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## riskyriver (Feb 23, 2010)

RWB - you have gotten some good suggestions, tho I don't agree with them all. But this is very tough to do via a chat board. I believe you should talk to a professional - you might start with calling Pete in Idaho and I think Cesar should also be considered. There are many differing views on food aggression (no, I won't tolerate my dogs attacking me when they are fed, but I DO generally leave them alone to eat in peace - and this is NOT necessarily an 'owner-caused' issue), and you are dealing with more than just that. I commend you for wanting to try everything, just remember both you and the dog will need to modify your behavior to make it work - with no guarantees that it will. Good luck to you.


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## Terry Brousseau (Oct 26, 2007)

RWB- I have 7 Chessies and I agree with Ken on a possible fix! If you want to talk about what I've done in the past, call me.

Terry Brousseau
Brousseau Retrievers


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## Richard Chavez (Dec 10, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> See why everyone here takes all the advice given on the internet?


+1

I still am amazed at how incredibly cavalier and thoughtless "dog lovers" and 'trainers" can be.

If it was easy to help these difficult dogs no one would get to know the truly helpful people who frequent this site.


Best of luck with your pup. Get a good animal behaviorist to help you, someone who specializes and genuinely enjoys working with aggressive dogs.
As has been stated previously, with Chessies only you can help him.

P.S. Any ******* can kill a dog!


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Richard Chavez said:


> +1
> 
> I still am amazed at how incredibly cavalier and thoughtless "dog lovers" and 'trainers" can be.
> 
> ...


I think there is a big difference in a dog with food aggression that will challenge you for a higher rung on the ladder and a dog that will charge you from the field for burning him because he wont sit, or whatever the correction might be from. Just saying.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

savage25xtreme said:


> ..... a dog that will charge you from the field for burning him because he wont sit......


 
I’m told, all you need for that is a trash can lid…..


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

geeez Ken, I have this image in my head of Chris Anderson's Chessie charging from the field. I would probably climb a damn tree that dog is HUGE, you would need a big ass trash can lid.

edit: it is obvious at this point, I should not own a Chessie.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

I in no way am an expert in either Chessies or aggression. I have heard of RAGE in some breeds. As I understood it, agression occurs with little stimulus. Have you considered contacting someone who is familiar with this issue to determine if this could possibly be the problem?

I really sympathize with you since you have obviously spent alot of training time with this animal. The liability to own a dog that can cause severe injury is a real issue. For example, in Texas now, the owner can go to prison if their dog injures someone. (Lillian's Law)

PM me. I do know someone who has experience with chessies and rage. Perhaps that indiviudal can help you determine if that could be the problem and what course of action is best.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Pete said:


> > I simply do not get why soooooooooooo many people want to mess with their dog during feeding time.
> 
> 
> If I may Ken
> ...


This is a theory, I could easily agree with.

There is a ton of "advice" on how to treat aggression, available on the internet and in books, that will only serve to turn a defensive dog, into a real monster.


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

Juli and others are correct. If you had done corrected him early on he would not have got worst. I have dogs that want to bite me all the time sepecially when forcing. If they attempt you have to take a firm hand quickly. They do get the message teeth are not an option. When I get a new dog that wants to fight with others I teach him that violence means his ass is gonna hurt. I have never had to correct a dog twice. Now if there is a bitch in heat I cut them some slack. I avoid putting them in that situation. Other wise all the dogs air at the same time without any violent tempers flaring. "15 dogs"
Hope your test can prove otherwise but I seriously dought it. 

I'd believe the quote:
It is really unfortunate you were not able to get a correction in the times your dog was able to successfully act aggressively toward you.


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

I have to disagree with you on the play in the food bowl thing. IF a dog learns to except that you can make him give up food at your command he is less likely to bite you for taking it. I can take food or anything from all my dogs with out any kinda issue or growl. I can even scale their teeth and they don't even move while I have my hands and scaler all over in their mouth. Yes and some times the scaler will hurt them. You have to work at respect not just play in their bowl. He saw signs of aggression way before it got bad. I think he let it get to far. I have worked with a few Chessies and can relate to the conduct he is seeing. Some poor child is going to be hurt from such bad behavior. 
I would not put myself in that situation with any dog.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

This is without a doubt the best thread on aggression I've read on RTF-kudos to the OP for being so up front and honest. It's not easy dealing with dog aggression and getting professional help is the best advice given. I trained my brothers Chessie, Rusty passed away this summer and I miss him. He was the biggest baby on the planet, sweet, loving and a total doll. Never did that dog, ever give me or anyone any trouble at all. Rusty could be stubborn and he was cautious of new people-but he never was aggressive. He opened my eyes to the breed and he taught me to never 'assume' the myths/wivestales are true. 

Good luck with your boy and please keep us posted.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

I hope the op keeps us updated on the progress of his dog. I'm curious on how this will end up. (Hopefully a happy ending)


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> I’m told, all you need for that is a trash can lid…..


Skip the Lid. Just cut out the bottom of the trash can and stand inside. You can raise and lower to the necessary protective height as appropriate.

Just don't fall over.

Clown in a barrel regards....


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## bulletman (Nov 4, 2009)

I glad some of you CLOWNS have the time to make light of this serious sutation. I myself just went through this with my chessie and it didn't turn out the best for the dog,me,my wife or my son. If you don't have anything useful to offer him then post somewhere else.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

Heres my $ .02 based on experience of dealing with several dogs with aggression issues.

Think back to how most of us train retrievers. Most of it is escalating pressure and attrition. The reason that it works, is that is how dogs communicate. When the dog growled or showed any "small" forms of aggression and you backed away; in the dogs mind, he won. Some dogs start with a bark, others with a growl. The next time they will growl again, if that doesn't work, they escalate to growling and advancing toward you (remember the phrase "distance erodes control", dogs do the same thing). If that doesn't work then it will be a full on attack. The dog will continue to escalate pressure until it gets the desired response (think, no-nick-no).

Coupled with this is the fact that dogs (like alot of us) are ultimately driven by 2 things; food and reproduction. If you can control one of them, you will further solidify yourself as the Alpha. The feeding is obviously a trigger. This is where the problem needs to be addressed. We all know that you have to immediately enforce a command at the time that it is disregarded, the same applies here. Set the dog up with his trigger, and be prepared to escalate pressure until you get the desired reaction. The reason that you should be able to remove the dogs food while eating goes back to when we were kids. We all heard the phrase "because I'm the daddy / momma, thats why". I do agree, the dogs have earned the right to eat their food in peace, but they better damn well regard me (or any human) as the Alpha.

We use the attitude to "meet force with force" (to a certain extent). Now this does not mean beating or physically abusing the dog. It means "dominating" the dog. This is not an easy task with a large dog, but it can be done. It would be impossible to explain over the internet or even the telephone. Its best to see it in person. I will warn you, it can look and sound pretty bad; but if done correctly the dog is not harmed and the results are usually pretty immediate. As advised, you should probably seek the advice of a professional trainer who does "animal behavior" work in your part of the world.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

bulletman said:


> I glad some of you CLOWNS have the time to make light of this serious sutation. I myself just went through this with my chessie and it didn't turn out the best for the dog,me,my wife or my son. If you don't have anything useful to offer him then post somewhere else.


Bora has a small army of Chessies and Plesko has to throw for mine from time to time- They're posting in good humor- 

It was difficult for me to refrain from the "what are the best current litters" thread- I was curious if the best pups from those litters came with a riot helmet and a bullet proof vest? just sayin' 

This has been a great thread and I do applaud those who have the guts to post up some difficult stories- they really help others out- I'd guess that anyone who has been around dogs for a reasonable amount of time has had to put one away for problems like this- not easy to discuss..


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## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

Thanks for the posts and the private messages. Many were helpful and hopefully others can benefit from the thread. 

Just a few general responses:

I, by no means, was expecting to remedy the issue "over the internet". I just figured it couldn't hurt to hear feedback from this experienced and diversely opinionated retriever community, and perhaps get a referral to an aggression specialist in my area.

I was also hoping that perhaps somebody out there might know of a better situation for him, having been given full disclosure. Dogs in far worse shape have found environments more suitable for them. Please let me know if you are aware of such a situation.

Many of you pointed out errors in my training, and I agree and acknowledge a number of them. For instance, I certainly should have corrected the dog for growling, even though he was limping in pain. I do accept responsibility for whatever errors I may have committed in training (some appear to be more clear cut than others), but at this point I am focusing on trying to make a responsible decision about the immediate future,

I, too, wish I had been able to properly correct the dog when he bit (ideally, before he bit). But I will say that until you have had an adult male charge and bite you, suggesting a correction at that point may be easier than actually executing that correction in the moment. I'm absolutely not saying it's impossible or that I should not have been able to do it, but the physical logistics of first gaining control of a dog who is in that mind frame and applying the correction can be very challenging (regardless of the size of trainer's body frame). Again, not making excuses -- just pointing out realities that some people (particularly those who have never been in that situation) might not consider fully, including insuring the safety of others around that may be potentially at risk.

Regarding suggestions to euthanize him -- I understand the logic completely and that is why I listed it as one of my 3 options. There are more tactful and graceful ways of articulating the sentiment than "shoot him!", but of course regardless of the language used, it still means the same thing -- killing your dog.

I do want to emphasize that this is not a breed issue. I have been around Chessies for 20 years and train with over a dozen Chessies most weekends and none of them have ever had aggression issues. Chessies really get a bad rap. Hopefully, intelligent people will understand that is is not a breed or breeding issue here. I have gotten several messages from lab people with similar issues.

And finally, a pet peeve: I have to comment about basic reading comprehension. I know my original post was longer than the usual post, but it still amazes me how a number of posts and private messages incorrectly described my clearly stated situation, or even directly contradicted the facts I presented. I have no problem with differing opinions or accepting criticism or considering suggestions I may not want to hear - after all, that's what these forums are all about. But it would be nice if people would take a brief moment before they post or send a private message to make sure we are even talking about the same situation. Otherwise, it's completely unproductive.

Thanks again for all the input.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

RWB, thanks for your post and this discussion. I am just curious, have you contacted any of the "Aggression Experts"? I would like to know what kind of feedback they are providing, and is it really possible to reach someone like Cesar Milan with a real life problem like this?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm kind of curious if there's a Chessie rescue group in your area. It might be a good idea to have him evaluated by someone who has experience with Chessie's. I would expect that they've had experience with agression. Their opinion couldn't hurt.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

There is a very well respected amateur lab trainer in my area that told me, before I got my lab, about the best dog he ever had. Mind you this was back in the day before ecollars and everything was "hands on", if you need to correct your dog on a 200 yard blind you ran yours ass out there and corrected on the spot. His dog would challenge him especially in the field when he was having a bad day. The trainer told me any time there was a potential for an altercation he always had a choke chain with a tab on it, if all hell broke loose he picked that dog up by that tab until the lights were about to go out. The trainer went on to say that would straighten him out for a few weeks, but the problem never went away. I asked if the dog ever bit him, and he wouldn't answer me.

This is a crazy game we play, love it or hate it I guess. Any time you push a living creature to its limits there is a potential for a melt down, some creatures run and hide, some fight back, and some animals/people just aint wired right.


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## fetchtx (May 12, 2005)

From my previous post on the CBR that belonged to a good friend of mine, yes he charged my friend from field three different times as I was throwing from a station and he was trying to stop the dog on whistle, tri tronics collar set on 1 or 2 level after sit refusal. I took my friend to emergency twice with torn tendons out of his arm, many puncture wounds. The dog was neutered only because he was 1/2 pt from FC and breeding inquiries were starting to come in. 
Dog never finished FC, after a divorce the dog ended up living out his life with the Mrs, never saw another training day or trial. 
Back then we shot popper loads in training, but I always had a couple live loads with me incase the dog changed direction. BTW, this owner got his first collar, put it on his own neck, turned it to five level to see how much it hurt as he wanted to be gentle with the dog. I never said he was a smart friend.


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

RWB? Is that the dog you are talking about in your avatar? 

2tall: I actually contacted Cesar Milan (or one of his assistants) about our Neapolitan, he would have taken her if I could have gotten her in a crate and flown her to LA. That was about 4-5 years ago. I thought it was easy enough to get ahold of someone there. I think RWB should try that, nothing like going to the aggressive dog guru.

RWB please keep us posted! I am hoping that somehow it all works out for you and the dog.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I want to add one more thought to this thread, and then I am done.

It's pretty deep, and it might be way off base, but it is what I believe to be true.

Directly confronting and correcting a dog, is effective at changing a behavior that the dog does, based on a calculated decision.

If a dog makes a decision to be aggressive, it warrants a large amount of direct pressure, to correct it's disobedience. The proper application of pressure, will illicit an immediate ceasing of the behavior and will also discourage it's future occurrence. 

However, there are literally dozens of behaviors that dogs express, that have nothing at all to do with the dog making a conscious decision.

Things like drooling, pacing, freezing, vocalizing, hard-mouth and yes, even aggression. Especially fear-biting, food and possession aggression.

Being a retriever community, I'm sure you know what happens, when you try to burn a dog, to correct it for freezing. It makes the problem worse and it is likely to create a whole bunch of new ones.

I'm just saying that if you are going to try using strong arm tactics against aggressive behavior, you had better be damn sure, that the dog is being aggressive because it wants to be. Not because it is merely reacting to it's instincts.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

rwb,
dude let me be another to say you are super to have shared your issues with this forum. you have opened yourself, your home life and your training actions and philosophies up to the big ol' retieving world.(where we all know the old joke, "the only thing two people can agree on is what the third guy is doin wrong".) i will say that i would much rather mix it up in the kitchen with a big chessie than to expose myself and my dogs to this much opinion and scrutiny. i applaude you, this discussion is educational for everyone.

i agree with you that it is easy for someone not in the situaion to assume they would handle a specific situation differently. i dont believe "many" would have reacted significantly differently than you did. i have been bitten twice in my life. two different dogs, same breed, both times under the age of seven. to this day fourty years later if someone says, "can you help me with ob?", and i say, "sure what kind of dog you got?" they respond german sheperd and i go, "duh, uh, duh, uh i dunno!"

you are in a dangerous high liabiliy situation with an aggressive dog. but your original post indicated a model canine citizen everywhere except the kitchen. i don't believe we have to sleep with our dogs to have them "integrated into our lives." think about building yourself a nice secure outdoor kennel, keep training your dog(make sure training partners know and are ok) and seek the professional aggression help so many have recomended. if he is ok everywhere except the kitchen, stay out of the kitchen! its still a dog and it can live outside.

rwb the "just shoot him" crew is a minority. true there are some serious dog people looking for the next nfc for which little time exists for any dog that doesnt "have it". today they will wash him out and find a good home, where as granddad went for a walk with a subpar dog and came back with a collar. not too many granddads around these days i bet, especially if no other person was harmed. dont let those comments get you down. however, you are correct to consider euthanasia at this point but only you must know when that time comes and you are responsible for that decision BEFORE it's too late.

do what you believe to be correct. be cautious. everone makes training mistakes, learn from them and keep your confidence with this dog and your future dogs.
j mc


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## BigKahuna13 (Mar 6, 2009)

I want to begin by saying that I have no experience with aggressive dogs or chessies for that matter and my info is mostly out of turn and old. I did watch the dog whisperer yesterday and at the end ceasar milan had his $.02 for his audience. It went a little like this ( never feel bad for your dog and its situation) and (the kiss of death for any dog owner is to treat a dog like a person, the more rigid and structure a dog has the more content it will be) this is obviously for the dog owner who adopts a aggressive pup from a bad background. I am in no means saying that you treated your dog like a person and made him aggressive. I am just citing his methods and how they can be useful to all of us as dog owners. Good luck with your situation. I really hope all works out


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

DuckTruk said:


> Heres my $ .02 based on experience of dealing with several dogs with aggression issues.
> 
> Think back to how most of us train retrievers. Most of it is escalating pressure and attrition. The reason that it works, is that is how dogs communicate. When the dog growled or showed any "small" forms of aggression and you backed away; in the dogs mind, he won. Some dogs start with a bark, others with a growl. The next time they will growl again, if that doesn't work, they escalate to growling and advancing toward you (remember the phrase "distance erodes control", dogs do the same thing). If that doesn't work then it will be a full on attack. The dog will continue to escalate pressure until it gets the desired response (think, no-nick-no).
> 
> ...


This was a GREAT post Bob.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

.02 coming your way. ;-)

First, you write that the dog is well socialized but that the dog is basically crated unless you two are exercising or training. I'm probably reading more into this than needed, but I find these two ideas at odds with each other. Your mate, that you need to have complete dominance over, needs to be out of that crate every time you are home. You two need all the interaction you can have to help him learn that it is he who is to be always submissive.

Second, IMHO his biting was out of fear. He felt trapped and could not escape so he lashed out. This is completely understandable, but should not happen between “mates”.

Third, others here have already hinted at some interactions that need to occur, hand feeding being one of them. Hand feeding, food as treats, etc need to be incorporated into your interactions with your mate so that he can learn that he is TOTALLY dependent upon you for his very existence. He has not learned that – your mistake and you need to decide if you want to correct this.

Lastly, get professional help as mentioned. I believe that you can correct the issues, but it will take commitment on your part, and after you two get things squared away your fiance will need to be in the same position in relation to your dog as you're gonna be (if you decide to). 

Good luck.

p.s. Another poster mentioned that dominance need not come with aggression: true dat. Mates learn dominance/submission almost always without aggression (or quickly learn not to use aggression 'cause it may come back on them - hence submission as a form of de-escalation). They learn this as pups while interacting with each other, and mom and dad.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Ducktruk,

Good post. 

Humans are motivated by more than reproduction and hunger drives: pain, oxygen (lack thereof), reduction of negative affect, etc.

I agree with your assessment about food. The original poster has made some mistakes that IMHO can be corrected, and that most certainly will include new patterns and cues with food. 


Phil


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

I highly recommend to all here to read up on the ethology of canines. It can only help your understanding of these awesome partners of ours.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

Thanks for the compliments.

Your right Phil, we are driven by more than those 2 things, that part was a bit of levity. Butnow that I think about it, there's not much else that motivates me (except for maybe shooting mallards in the face).


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

Thanks for the compliments.

Your right Phil, we are driven by more than those 2 things, that part was a bit of levity. Butnow that I think about it, there's not much else that motivates me (except for maybe shooting mallards in the face).


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## Mike Boyle (May 3, 2010)

I am in absolute awe of this post, and can't get over all of the information, opinions, and garbage that is in it. 

I just brought my Chessie pup home not more than two weeks ago and have tried to do things the right way. This thread couldn't have come at a better time for me, and I truly appreciate all of you that have contributed to it. I am newbie (in posting) to the forum, and to Chessies, but hope to do things correctly.

Needless to say, I'm nervous as heck to ruin what could be a great dog. 

Good luck with your situation, and please keep all of us updated on this. There is still a lot to learn from this thread....at least for me anyway.


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## surferdave (May 24, 2010)

I have to agree with the OP's comment on giving corrections at the moment aggressive behavior takes place, and how difficult it is. I grabbed my cousins pomeranian chihuahua mix by the collar the other day, to get it back in her house, it quickly snarled and bit me on the hand. I know I should have corrected him by putting him on his back, grabbing his muzzle, with a verbal no, but at the moment, shock and a throbbing hand kept me doing otherwise. This was with a 14lb dog, I couldn't imagine if a full grown chessie was charging. Lot easier said than done.


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## Mike Boyle (May 3, 2010)

I really don't want to change the topic of this thread and hope that I don't by posting this. 

When some of you said that you don't "mess" with a dog when he/she is eating, does this mean that you allow him to eat, uninterrupted, from the time you set the bowl down til the time the food is gone? 

How would you correct a pup that gets so excited that he jumps on your legs or the food bag, nearly doing a backflip because he is so excited to eat? 

I am wondering if these are two different situations completely, but how would you handle this? Make the dog calm down and sit before setting his food down? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what you all mean by "don't mess with the dog when he is eating".


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

wetchessie said:


> I really don't want to change the topic of this thread and hope that I don't by posting this.
> 
> When some of you said that you don't "mess" with a dog when he/she is eating, does this mean that you allow him to eat, uninterrupted, from the time you set the bowl down til the time the food is gone?
> 
> ...


Well, you drug me back in.....

My philosophy now, is simple.

Make dinner time as much of a non-event as possible.

If the way you are doing it right now, draws enough attention from the pup to get it doing backflips, you need to tone it down a tad. Don't correct, and don't excite.


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## mkeehn (Sep 24, 2007)

The aggressive dog should be seen by someone that can give you some advise and work with you one on one. 





wetchessie said:


> I really don't want to change the topic of this thread and hope that I don't by posting this.
> 
> When some of you said that you don't "mess" with a dog when he/she is eating, does this mean that you allow him to eat, uninterrupted, from the time you set the bowl down til the time the food is gone?
> 
> ...


You may try getting the food ready ahead of time so you don't have to have him under foot while trying to get it ready. that way you can have him sit then just reach up and grab the food bowl and feed him so he get use to the idea that sitting is good then he gets his food. I am assuming he is a young pup because you stated you got him 2 weeks ago.
Another question do you feed him in his crate or just free

I have 2 dogs that get fed in crates and 3 that get fed out. The ones I feed in the crate I tell them Kennel then put the food down and leave them to eat it. The other ones all go to there perspective places to eat one in the kitchen one in the dinning room and one in the entry the slowest eatting one gets fed first. They all finish about the same time. Once I feed them I let them eat I don't prod at them or hover over them while they eat I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me while I was eatting, that being said I could reach in and grab anything from any of my dogs when I need to.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

wetchessie said:


> I really don't want to change the topic of this thread and hope that I don't by posting this.
> 
> When some of you said that you don't "mess" with a dog when he/she is eating, does this mean that you allow him to eat, uninterrupted, from the time you set the bowl down til the time the food is gone?
> 
> ...


I thought I was done posting on this too but, this is a good thread and I've found it interesting to see the continued different perspectives- 

I guess I'm from a different school of thought than many folks on this subject. As pups, I always sit down with them and pet them, praise them, touch them and talk to them while they eat.(positive messing with them in my mind) I think doing otherwise is avoidance and missing a golden opportunity to make corrections and become enlightened on your dogs' attitudes. Dog growls at me or has any suggestive attitude towards aggressivenss why not smash the issue then and there? When Ty was about 1 year+, he got a little possesive of food when Kaie would eat her smaller portion and try to surf to his bowl. Being right there I got to catch it and "re-arrange" his ego. I just don't tolerate it at any time for any reason. 

A few months back I was messing with what looked like a ingrown hair on Ty's knee. I was popping it and squeezing blood out and he growled at me. Did I say, "sorry buddy, that must have hurt", eeehh- nope, not here- we talked with Jesus together for a few minutes and then I finished cleaning up his knee. 

For a pet, who will be in your house, not living and eating in a kennel all the time, avoiding opportunities to make corrections seems contradictory to me. It is what we do every day when we walk into the field to train. We set up our dogs to explain how we want them to behave in situations. Like de-cheating water. You're setting them up to make a correction and teach them what you want. Why would we not do it at home? Ty and Kaie eat happily together, I don't have to go through some routine of separating them, kenneling them or whatever to only AVOID having a situation. Avoiding situations, especially with Chessies, only lets the item fester and get worse or, even worse yet, come at you completely unexpectedly. When I visit friends and they have their dogs food out, we don't have problems because mine know better or, they get their egos hurt if they've forgotten. We've had our little situations and we've corrected what potentially could have become a problem with food aggression. Ty and Kaie both know very clearly in my house there will be no growling at the dinner table. (or anywhere else for that matter) 

Food possesion is not a genetic trait in my mind. You control the responses and the actions of your dog on food. You start this control easily at an early age, you correct it easily at an early age and it is the beginning levels of respect for you dog will carry throughout his life. Especially a male through the tough teenage years. I have well socialized happy-go-lucky dogs that people enjoy being around and I trust without question. I take them to work and when they get out of the kennels they are free to run and visit anyone in the warehouse, office or customers who may be back there - mostly unsupervised. 

The "Beware of Dog" sticker on the back of my topper is a joke. Many folks who frequent this site who know my dogs can attest to that fact. 

Plesko shows up training with me in a garbage can he'll definately be a circus clown getting knocked down because if he smells like the trash, guaranteed he'll be licked to death by the two Brown Clowns.


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## Mike Boyle (May 3, 2010)

That makes a lot of sense. You are correct, he is only 10 weeks old. He is the only dog that I have, and I live alone, so he is fed in the open in my kitchen. 

Thanks for your advice.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Ken Bora said:


> I’m told, all you need for that is a trash can lid…..


And if that fails there is always the roof of the truck!

Tom


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

One of the things we tend to do as trainers is compartmentalize <sp?> things. We have training time, relaxing time, feeding time, TV time, etc. Our dogs don't think like this. They are always learning. Every moment is training time for something with them. This is especially true with chessies, they are thinking and observing all the time. They will take what seems to you an innocent behavior and turn it into a step on the hierarchy.

Every detail of their life needs to be thought out. When you open a door who goes through it first? You or your dog? Does your dog rush out of its' crate when you open the door? Or, do they wait until they are released by you?

One reason with "mess" with our dogs food is we one, want to assess their reaction and B, correct unacceptable responses early in the dogs life. We put the Barney Fife to it and "Nip it in the bud!" We expect our dogs to allow us to pick up their bowels while they are eating. We expect our dogs to allow us to put our hands in their food bowel while they are eating.

Chessies are wonderful animals. But, they are always on their "game" and require you to also be on your "game." One of the traits they have is a protective nature. They were bred to protect their owners gear while their owner was taking game to market. In proper balance this is a great trait. But, it can be a fine line to walk. When the pendulum swings too far one way problems can develop. Individuals dogs can decide they need to protect someone or something, at all costs.

This is one of the traits that makes chessies unique and wonderful. I share this not to scare but to make people aware. Chessies are not labs having a bad hair day or in need of a bath. Structurally, they are similar. Mentally, they are very different.

I suspect the OP can find an appropriate home for his chessie. It just may take a little time.

Enough of my rambling,

Tom


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## mkeehn (Sep 24, 2007)

I would like to add that the only reason I seperate the 3 house dogs is that they would all eat out of the same dish if I let them and one is on a different food she is almost 15 years old and one is on a diet I would perfer they only eat what is dished out. The 2 dogs I feed in the crates are rescue dogs I find it is just the best place for them to eat. These are all Chessies.

I do not avoid touching them but I usually go no farther than a pat on the head I just don't see the reason for "messing with them" Unless they show me something that need my attention.






mkeehn said:


> The aggressive dog should be seen by someone that can give you some advise and work with you one on one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Susie Royer (Feb 4, 2005)

wetchessie said:


> When some of you said that you don't "mess" with a dog when he/she is eating, does this mean that you allow him to eat, uninterrupted, from the time you set the bowl down til the time the food is gone?


It's very simple. Let the dog eat in peace. A great place is in it's crate.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> I’m told, all you need for that is a trash can lid…..





twall said:


> And if that fails there is always the roof of the truck!
> 
> Tom


See, somebody else knows the story…..;-)




.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> See, somebody else knows the story…..;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It wasn't one like todays trucks, need an extension ladder or be an olympic pole vaulter. Heard that one told a few different ways from a few different fellows over 80.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

> For a pet, who will be in your house, not living and eating in a kennel all the time, avoiding opportunities to make corrections seems contradictory to me. It is what we do every day when we walk into the field to train. We set up our dogs to explain how we want them to behave in situations. Like de-cheating water. You're setting them up to make a correction and teach them what you want. Why would we not do it at home


Dang. Wish some parents would do this with their kids.
This is not for the OP, but for the one with the puppy-
A wise dog trainer one told me that young dogs, like young children, try things to see if they can get away with it. Sort of like touching a hot stove when you were told not to. If you teach a dog that is unacceptable behavior, most will try it again, and then decide the consequences are or are not worth it. I try and make it not worth while, but I don't have chessies. I am NOT saying they are a bad breed. There are a ton of goldens who I have had "conversations" with, which included the phrase I weigh more than you do you little "creep" and have dealt with worse-you will NOT win this! Hate it for ya. My rules for behavior at the vet and in the car are much tougher, starting as young puppies. NO messing about. You never know if you have to move 9 dogs in a SAAB from a frozen lakehouse to another place (1 doberman, 1 terv, a shi tzu, 3 or 4 goldens, a collie and a min pin.) What a ride!
Food- I don't mess with it, but if one walks up to a crate while someone is eating, and either one is a jerk, all hell breaks loose.
In my house, the cats do the messing. I have often walked in to a 8 pound cat eating the food while the dog watches. Not sure how the cat trained the dog!

I wish the OP luck, I feel for him. I hope he lets us know what happens.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> It wasn't one like todays trucks, need an extension ladder or be an olympic pole vaulter. Heard that one told a few different ways from a few different fellows over 80.


But were all versions basically legendary trainer of dog trainers 
whose name we all know, a trash can lid and a frisky male Chessie?


.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

"A Chessie does something once, it is an experiment, second time it is reinforcement, and third time it is a full blown habit". Quote by Ken, and right on. Sounds like my typical teenagers in high school, a Sophomore's job is to test the teacher. 

I have a friend with two Chessies, and we have compared notes with my labs. Intense retrieving machines and usually one man dogs, and incredibly protective. My friend had an aggressive intact male, and he made the dominance issue clear at a very young age. 
He was relentless in not allowing the dog to gain reinforcement of that behavior. I probably would have ruined this dog or given up. The dog, after his bout with aggression would lick the heck out of anyone that Frank deemed okay. It was a constant learning exp the first few years. In later years his Chessie, even on three legs had more desire than most with four. Gotta Love em - RIP Buster.

My personality does not fit with a Chessie, but man do I appreciate them.

Good luck to you--you have a very unique situation--wish you the best

Agree to find a pro!


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

I have no idea if they are good or not but I saw this advertised. Might be worth checking out! It's a seminar on aggression. 

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/class/mcconnell.php


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## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

Thought I'd post an update on my dog's progress.

Several RTFers recommending "Pete in Idaho", who both trains retrievers and deals with dog aggression issues.

Pete Eromenok (username "Pete" on RTF) talked to me at length a couple of times on the phone and gave me a lot of logical, sound advice and helpful insight. Having spoken already with a number of "experts", he was the first one to convince me that he really knew what he was talking about, and that the process of rehab would involve a fair amount of trial and error, rather than just putting the dog through a set "program". For instance, food aggression can be based in fear ("I'm afraid he's going to take my food") or dominance ("This is MY food, I'll decide who comes near it") or a combination of both. The approach to dealing with one is very different than another, and if improperly addressed, can actually make the issue much worse.

Pete said that, of course, he'd really need to see the dog in order to guide me further. I half-jokingly said I'd "be right over", and he generously offered to evaluate the dog and spend some time with him if I was willing to make the trip and throw birds for him. So a 16 hour drive later, my dog and I were in Idaho, working with Pete.

Over the next two weeks, we made significant progress with the food aggression. I can now put the bowl between my feet as he eats, and then walk into him as he is finishing, pushing him out of "his" space and making it "mine". We have much more work to do, including incorporating my fiance into the process (which has begun well) and will most likely require ongoing maintenance throughout his life. Right now, I am cautiously optimistic that the dog can continue to live with us safely.

Without going into great detail about the process, it basically consisted of using obedience to call the dog away from food (increasing respect), desensitizing incrementally (also including some positive association -- a fun bumper after feeding), and significant force for act of aggression (one instance). By breaking the meals up into a number of smaller ones, we were able to accomplish more within the time frame.

Some random notes and observations:

*Pete believes that many dogs have a genetic disposition to food aggression, and that owners may do things that can allow it to develop, but that it usually not an owner-created problem. But it should be addressed early when it first begins to develop.

*Most dogs that come to Pete with aggression issues can be helped significantly through solid obedience. Many have little training and once they get it, they improve dramatically. In my case, although there were some holes in his obedience, Pete said that such dramatic changes wouldn't occur because his obedience was generally solid.

*Correcting the dog for growling with an injury would NOT have been the right thing to do. Not backing off and staying in his space would be the right approach, but correcting at that point could have created new problems.

*Pete advises that addressing aggression with aggression is a very risky proposition. Most people who suggest whacking the dog, etc. have never encountered a truly aggressive dog. Likewise, trying to roll an aggressive, charging dog of his size is just plain stupid.

As a bonus, on my trip I was also able to meet and/or train with a number of good retriever folks -- Carol ("2tall") and Ralph, Chris Anderson, Barb Young, Linda Harger, and Diane Mazy among them. They were all very helpful and supportive.

On our way home, we stopped at the Chesapeake Specialty in Oregon and ran the Derby -- the first field trial for either of us. We got a JAM, so our already successful trip ended on an even more positive note.

I can't thank Pete enough for his help and generosity. A lot of people posted that I "couldn't expect to fix my dog's problems over the internet", but by posting on RTF I was able to find Pete, and that's one of the great benefits of such an online community. I highly recommend him -- not only for aggression issues, but he is a hell of a retriever trainer, too, as I watched him work client dogs and his dogs daily for a couple of weeks. And he's a great guy as well.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

What an awesome update RWB! I am so glad to hear that things are getting better for you and your chessie.  And what a terrific guy Pete is for taking you both in and helping you work through it. This is one aspect of dog behavior I would love to learn more about.
And congrats on your derby JAM. Very cool! 

Juli


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

RWB said:


> Thought I'd post an update on my dog's progress.
> 
> Several RTFers recommending "Pete in Idaho", who both trains retrievers and deals with dog aggression issues.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good and succesful trip. Congrats on your JAM. Good choice going with Pete. I have seen what he did with some of the dogs out here around Maryland before he left.
________
Handjob Blonde


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm glad for you and your dog RWB.

Good going Pete!


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## sinned (Feb 14, 2009)

RWB said:


> Pete believes that many dogs have a genetic disposition to food aggression, and that owners may do things that can allow it to develop, but that it usually not an owner-created problem. But it should be addressed early when it first begins to develop.


Yes, this applies to ALL breeds. The genetic code needs the right environment to manifest itself. We just don't know the triggers. That is why breeding for temperament is important in ALL breeds.



RWB said:


> trying to roll an aggressive, charging dog of his size is just plain stupid.


 Why didn't anyone tell me this 20 years ago? I'll show you holes in a double tin cloth jacket. 



RWB said:


> As a bonus, on my trip I was also able to meet and/or train with a number of good retriever folks -- Carol ("2tall") and Ralph, Chris Anderson, Barb Young, Linda Harger, and Diane Mazy among them. They were all very helpful and supportive.
> 
> On our way home, we stopped at the Chesapeake Specialty in Oregon and ran the Derby -- the first field trial for either of us. We got a JAM, so our already successful trip ended on an even more positive note.


Rock ON RWB! Congrats on it ALL! You met and networked with some good dog people, not to mention Chessie folks. Sounds like they left a good impression on your. Great job at the FTS. Hopefully we will see you next year in MN? Its only half way as far as Oregon... 

sinneD


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

The one "pat on the back" that Rob left out, was the one due himself! I think it is a very rare individual that will recognize a problem and then seek out help and follow it through like he has done. It would have been far easier to give up, dump the dog in a shelter and roll on. Rob not only traveled a long, long way, he obviously was a really good student. I am happy that I got to meet him and his dog and to see that they are loving life again! Go Rob and Archer!

And I will second everything said about Pete and his insight. Though it may be a bit late in life for me and my dog, Indy is a new animal on the line. If I do things properly now, he is just fine. Our errors now are purely due to my nervousness, not his. He is pretty much "rewired". I think its time to work very seriously on me.

Low, continuous, around my own neck regards,


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Outstanding!!!


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

You might do a search as well. Aggressive Chessie issues gets posted several times a year.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Good news and I'm really happy for ya! 

Previous aggressive dog owner regards,

Joe


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

WAIT!!!!

Nobody's gonna mention who and what dog in this thread MAY have jammed the derby at the Chesapeake specialty? 

ROBB!!!! GOOD JOB BUDDY!! Great to meet you. Looking forward to seeing you two running again! Paul

Glad you didn't put a bullet in his head.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

RWB said:


> Thought I'd post an update on my dog's progress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Talkin' bout this dog Paul? Hey how did Ty do, I never heard back!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

2tall said:


> Talkin' bout this dog Paul? Hey how did Ty do, I never heard back!


Sorry- I deleted you by accident. We went out by my doing. I got nervous, wasn't thinking clearly, didn't wait for my number to heal him back..... nerves- should have taken CPayne's advice and went to the bathroom before going to the line!


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

What an AWESOME update, RWB!! I really enjoyed this thread and am thrilled for you and your CBR that you met Pete and all those great Chesapeake folks and you're able to work things out. And big congratulations on the Derby Jam.

Most dog aggression threads, if they're about Chesapeakes, don't contain much useful information because they're too full of gratuitous little jabs like this one:



> You might do a search as well. Aggressive Chessie issues gets posted several times a year.


to which I'll respond: most aggressive dog threads aren't as specific in outlining the problem areas and what the owner is willing to do to fix it, either. The main thing you'll find if you do a search on aggressive Chesapeake issues is snide little digs like this one, along with opinions that the problem lies entirely within the breed. This entire thread was useful for what it (mostly) did NOT contain as well as the good stuff people did offer, including getting RWB fixed up with a person willing to help the DOG and owner rather than blaming the breed.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Hats off to Rob,
Your dedication paid off. Not only are you getting a handle on Archer but a green ribbon for your first field trial . Pretty awesome. Rob literally put his nads on the line (no padding where its needed most) Thats dedication. 
I enjoyed Robs visit. He has a great sense of humor. Now Rob, lets talk about my new avatar. How do I get it up there. May be pun intended .





[QUOTE
Though it may be a bit late in life for me and my dog, Indy is a new animal on the line. If I do things properly now, he is just fine. Our errors now are purely due to my nervousness, not his. He is pretty much "rewired". I think its time to work very seriously on me.][/QUOTE]

Never to late with a fine animal. We may need to turn the juice up a little on you though Carol.:razz::razz: See you monday my place at 9.


Pete


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## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

Pete said:


> Hats off to Rob,
> Rob literally put his nads on the line (no padding where its needed most) Thats dedication.


Pete, that woman in your avatar has more padding (especially where it's needed most) than your bite suit.

I thought I might get slowly desensitized to that picture, but that hasn't happened and now I believe I will need counter-conditioning to recover...


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

It's great when you can fix a problem.......hard work and good people to help works too .


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## MoJo (Mar 24, 2004)

2tall said:


> The one "pat on the back" that Rob left out, was the one due himself! I think it is a very rare individual that will recognize a problem and then seek out help and follow it through like he has done. It would have been far easier to give up, dump the dog in a shelter and roll on. Rob not only traveled a long, long way, he obviously was a really good student. I am happy that I got to meet him and his dog and to see that they are loving life again! Go Rob and Archer!
> 
> And I will second everything said about Pete and his insight.


I second this. It's very nice to hear of someone doing the right, yet very hard thing in a difficult situation. Best of luck to you in the future Rob.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Sorry- I deleted you by accident. We went out by my doing. I got nervous, wasn't thinking clearly, didn't wait for my number to heal him back..... nerves- should have taken CPayne's advice and went to the bathroom before going to the line!


LOL! That is exactly what I did with Indy at his trial. I need to run lots and lots of trials, but my dog needs to run very few. How do you deal with this????


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Thank God you got with someone who knows how to deal with these issues rather than put the dog down! Too often, dogs are put down, when their issues could be resolved by someone who knows what they are doing. Kudos to Pete!!


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

RWB, I'm really glad to that you and the dog are doing so well. I had a question, though, and I hope it doesn't stir up a hornet's nest. In your initial post, all three options left the dog unable to reproduce. Are you still planning on neutering, or are you going to wait and see how he does in further training and with your fiance? 

It sounds, as far as work is concerned, he's excellent and from an excellent breeding. I'm not advocating that you DO breed him, just wondering what your thoughts were, now. Obviously, you've left him intact for a reason, so I assume you were interested in keeping your options open. Have you discussed it with Pete?

I'd be really curious if anyone has done a study on animal aggression with regard to genetic vs environmental causes. Is there a genetic defect in any dog that will resort to aggression, or is there an environmental threshold where almost any dog will resort to aggression. I'm sure the answer lies somewhere in the middle, with extremes on both ends, but I'd be curious to see a study about it, anyway.


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

RWB so glad things are working out. From the posts Pete has made in the past he really knows his stuff and cares about people and dogs.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My friend had a 120lb Chessie, who used to bully me completely. Until one day, I grabbed him by the ears, kicked swept his legs out from under him, and threw him upside down. He got up with this suprised look on his face and since then he worships me and runs better for me than his own owner. Keep in mind I'm a little 5'2 115lb woman, the boys just like to be dominated


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Hunt 'em up, welcome to RTF! I hope your post was made in jest. You really need to read this whole thread to realize the danger in your "solution". Especially, you need to read Robert's description of his efforts with his dog. 

There is a lot to learn here, but you need to read the whole thread on a subject before reaching conclusions. And even then, check the source!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

2tall said:


> Hunt 'em up, welcome to RTF! I hope your post was made in jest. You really need to read this whole thread to realize the danger in your "solution". Especially, you need to read Robert's description of his efforts with his dog.
> 
> There is a lot to learn here, but you need to read the whole thread on a subject before reaching conclusions. And even then, check the source!


Robb put it well, logistics of doing an alpha roll don't work well in some situations. A garbage can lid maybe or, as my buddy Dave suggested, a full on garbage can . I think most people who use the alpha roll stuff have a dog with behavioral problems versus aggression issues. 

still holding back on commenting about a dominant 115lb 5'-2" female : ) lol....


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

rwb,
i have been wondering about you and your dog for weeks. i am pleased that you and your team have things under control and are out winning ribbons. congratulations!!!!


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Pete I know of one dog that you had you should get back. I am sure you knwo of what dog I am talking about. They want to breed him I suggested them not to. What do you think?
________
ZX14 VS HAYABUSA


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## RWB (Jun 4, 2009)

Regarding neutering:

I have done a lot of research on the pros and cons, and I certainly value Pete's advice. 

After my initial post here, I did not immediately neuter the dog because I was concerned that the recovery period of limited exercise (2 weeks suggested) might interfere with training/rehab efforts. As it turned out, I made the right decision and was able to go work with Pete.

Because I am a one dog owner and weekend (at best) trainer, I have no plans to breed the dog. Even dismissing the aggression issues, it would be a long time before he is titled enough to be a desired sire by someone else. And there is debate as to whether his less than average bite inhibition has any genetic connection or not. There are always good dogs available when I am ready for another one. So the neutering question is really one of what's best for the dog behaviorally and health-wise.

There are strong and widely varied opinions on the benefits of neutering (aside from population control, which is not an issue in this case). It's also very difficult to determine the behavioral effects of neutering, isolated from the effects of training, environment, and normal maturing. If I neutered him today, I still really would never know what effect that had on him because so many other factors will have also played a role.

The consensus of opinions I value is:

*Neutering rarely changes existing behavior.

*Neutering can possibly limit future dominance-related problems because testosterone adds "fuel" to dominance issues. Many suggest that a dog neutered between 6 months and a year old may be less inclined towards dominant behavior when he goes through adolescence.

*Neutering generally decreases the inclination to roam (and perhaps to be less distracted by bitches in heat).

*Neutering, in some cases, has been known to increase aggression.

I don't know enough about health issues to feel confident in forming an opinion. Obviously, a dog without testicles won't get testicular cancer, but many also argue that neutering early deprives the dog of testosterone needed for normal physical development, particularly through the first 18 months. I have learned very little about this.

As to the effects on retrieving performance, etc., I'll leave that to others. For us, it is not a priority; I'm more concerned with the effects on the dog's aggressive behavior.

I'm still deciding on whether to neuter, though I'm leaning towards doing it. I have learned that the rehab of an aggressive dog is an accumulation of many (often very small) changes and factors, and I see neutering as just one more of those that, combined with the others, might help contribute to a dog with better impulse control. 

After this experience, I look at dogs much differently now, and often wonder just how small the difference is between a dog that gets irritated and shoots a look or gives a "huff" and one that acts aggressively. With many, I don't think it's as big a difference as we think; all dogs are capable of biting and some are more easily triggered than others. For instance, had I always fed my dog in a kennel and had he never injured himself, I probably wouldn't even know right now that he could be aggressive, because he is otherwise as sweet and friendly a dog as there is. So I'm inclined to try anything I can do to minimize (and ideally eliminate) the effect of those triggers -- through training, management, and possibly neutering -- hoping that the cumulative result is the one desired.

As Pete kept reminding me -- "they are animals".


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Pete said:


> Yes Nick
> I am aware of that dog. Early on I informed the owner of the potential problems. I enjoyed the dog immensely. because of No birds I had 3 honor dogs in a row in the senior. Those 3 honor dogs came nose to nose with him because the handlers could't get complete control of their dogs and we were able to hold it together. Very thrilling for me. He also had issues with strangers as he matured. But the dog trained well and had a few goofy querks. He did well with me for such a young dog with cooky querks.
> 
> I would take another one in a heart beat. I mean that.
> ...


You did a great job with him. I think you even Jammed a Derby with him. He would have turned out better if he stayed with you. He is to much dog for the owner I remember one senior test after my dog got the birds and thought he was going back in the holding blind I was trying to heal him over to the honor station and he wanted to see what was in the holding blind behind me. Well You know what was coming and turned him quickly and walked away with no problems.
________
Mercury voyager history


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Pete said:


> Nick
> I remember that,,, He new how to keep a handler on his feet.
> His sister was bred with Thor wasn't she, She was a sweet heart of a dog.
> Dogs are like a box of chocolates Are you Getting ready for the surge of hunters
> ...


Yes we bred his full sister to Thor and we bred his mother to Thor. So far both litters turned out real nice. One pup has titled so for in HRC and I expect more to title next year. 

I think the mother was the best dog he had but he didnt do anything with her. She was out of CH Sako MH and he had 2 AA points. 

We just bred a littermate to that dog you brought out to Coloardo for me. She is also a Thor daughter and a SH.


Yea I am getting a lot of calls for 3 day hunts. I get to mix it up and do divers, sea ducks, and puddlers on 3 different days.
________
BEST PORTABLE HERBAL VAPORIZER


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## makaylaviehweg (Mar 14, 2016)

I have a 7mo female CBR and she has a few of the same issues you had with your Chessie. She has food aggression and toy/bone aggression. If she is tired on her bed in the front room(not in her kennel) she gets very aggressive and growls. it is something that we have been working on since day one that we got her. Its very frustrating and its a slow process to correct these behaviors. thank you for posting this because I pulled away a lot of info that might be pertinent to my situation as well.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Funny this thread would pop up.
I talked to Rob last week. Archer is doing great. He got the food aggression worked out. He sent me a video of Archer and him with their head in the food bowl. Just kidding,,,he was petting him though and could remove the bowl while eating and Archer couldn't care less.
he used counter conditioning techniques
I can't believe its been almost 6 years
pete


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Pete, I was also surprised to see this show up. It brought back great memories of a fabulous summer, just before the **** hit the fan.&#55357;&#56850; Hard to believe Indy is 11, birthday Thursday. He never got past the 3rd, but that was on me. I'm so glad to hear that Rob and Archer have continued to have good times. Hope to get back out there one day.


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