# Correcting "Hard Mouth"



## Guest (Jul 21, 2008)

I've been working with a trainer who says my 8-month lab exhibits "hard mouth." I can't afford the $1,200 he's asking to correct the problem (without getting a divorce). What is the most effective and humane forced retrieving method? I'm a novice, but have the time and patience. Any recommendations?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25818&highlight=hard+mouth

Here's one search. I'm looking for another for you.

I use indirect pressure - sit- stick-sit; dog releases bird-


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

First you need to have the dog force fetched. If you haven't gone through this already. If you haven't buy Smartfetch and go from there.

If you have already been through FF go back to hold. Use a gloved had and reinforce hold using your index and middle fingers as the training buck. I am sure you will do whatever it takes to keep the dog from biting you. If he bites down use your other hand to push his lip between his teeth and apply pressure until he releases. When he will hold your fingers in his mouth without fighting go back to the bumper. This would be the time for the indirect pressure Justice Dog mentioned.

The first ducks or birds that you use should be frozen solid. If he mouths these right back to the indirect pressure or a lip pinch. He needs to be force fetched because initially he will probably drop the bird. If all of this goes well move on to thawed birds and finally fresh killed and wing clipped birds. This progression will work most of the time.

In the past to discourage this I have had puppies fetching everything from pinecones to wire grill brushes with the handle cut off. Never really had a hard time with hard mouth and I attribute it to my unorthodox program.

The old timers used to use barbed wire and tacks to stop chewing on a bird. I would only use that as a last resort because it can easily sour a dog on retrieving. I hunted over a pointer that had hard mouth cured by this method. He was a pointing fool but once a quail was shot his job was over. He never retrieved another quail.

With the limited information you gave I am guessing your dog isn't force fetched. Please go through the entire FF process before correcting!

My opinion
Mark L.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Come on out to Wisconsin and spend a couple of days here...I'll get you started and send you home with a good start on the process.


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## etfremd (Feb 11, 2008)

Time and patience is what you need! I had a hard mouth dog since the age of 10 weeks- he got his first shot quail and at that moment I learned he was hard mouth by nature. I had him retrieving dead birds before that first quail but no way was he going to bring me that quail and finally I caught his rope and no way was he going to give me that bird- no lip pinch was strong enough- no ear pinch either- I could not pry his mouth open- I was with a buddy that had a fully trained retriever- he was trying to think of what to do? finally he put his two fingers on his nuts and gently lifted his hind legs off the ground- almost like the doc does for a hernia exam- but instead lifts his hind end off the ground- that bird shot out of his mouth...From then on I knew I had a problem...

I used the stiff brush method- then the wire brush, I had him picking up everything even barb wire around the bird- it did not matter- he was smart and was gentle as ever if the item was sharp- I had him fetch water balloons- he broke the first one and hated the water gushing in his mouth- he finally learned how to pick them up by grabbing the knot on the end...I tried to trap a pigeon in the back yard once- all I found where a few feathers and a big belly on the pup- he broke into the trap and ate the pigeon...I had him fetching beer bottles out of the fridge- he was always a little hard on cans though since he had a taste for beer...We never had a problem at any test...but during hunting season he liked to take an occasional taste...He got beat with bird too- blood all over his face I think he actually enjoyed it deep down...He was a hard mouth by nature- but this was something I had to work on him over and over again- my trainer never thought he was a hard mouth- but I knew better. He would never fail to release a bird- I never pulled a bird away from him- the "drop" command was started by both dropping the bumper in my hand or on the ground- he had to spit the object out of his mouth. I taught this early all along with hold- so it was "fetch", "hold", and "drop"...Many times I would run casting drills so he would pick up a bumper bring it back a few steps then sit him and "drop" then cast him for another...I did the hand hold thing- he would hold my handle in his mouth as gentle as ever- even with a live bird as long as I had my hand in his mouth...but if he wanted to kill a live bird he would be a mallard muncher and clamp down- I don't know how I can fix it? I just figured I needed to teach him to be gentle or "easy"...I think he understood what was wanted- I would say more than 90% of the time he was soft as ever- but he wanted to be a hard mouth 100% of the time- one time we were hunting- he just made a 100 yard blind retrieve across a water ditch, dirt road and into a field- he had to give chase on a crippled dove- brought it back without injury...The next bird was shot dead in the head- we were looking for other birds in the sky so did not give him any attention until I saw just the tail feather sticking out- I just about had to perform surgery to get the bird out of his throat- I was not going to let him eat that bird! Then the next ten birds not a feather was missing.

What did I learn? Don't let your puppy eat birds on his own or otherwise! Condition, Condition, Condition- if you really have a hard mouth use all the gimmicks you can think of- stiff brush, wire brush, water balloon, barb wire on bird, etc. Teach him the "drop" or "out" command and reinforce it every day. I had him fetch the paper every morning and instead of bringing it to hand I had him put it into the recycle bin- he would sit next to the recycle bin- I would either take it from him if I wanted to read the paper or I would tell him to "drop" and it would fall into the recycle bin- every morning.

Keep this conditioning going just like others have said- frozen birds, dead birds, then live birds...If you have the time and patience you will do a much better job than any pro could ever do in 15-20 minutes a day.

If your dog is like mine- a hard mouth by nature- then you will always have a hard mouth- but you won't have much of a problem at Hunt Tests or Field Trials.

Good Luck!


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## GONEHUNTIN' (Sep 21, 2006)

Sharon Potter said:


> Come on out to Wisconsin and spend a couple of days here...I'll get you started and send you home with a good start on the process.


That's one heck of an offer and were I you, I'd take her up on it. Quickly.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

To the original poster: What type of "hard mouth" issue do you mean? Seems like there are 2 entirely different sets of answers here depending on whether you mean the dog is "freezing" on the bird or chomping on it while running, (my problem). Regardless, hey, if you are near Wisconsin, I would be all over the free help offer!


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## TheShadow (May 8, 2008)

force breaking, the most grueling task ever known in training. For me at least. I hated it but knew it had to be done. A lot of people I know really really do not like this style of training and really frown upon it. These are mostly pet dog owners and they all say "There's gotta be a better way". Sure you can use treats and praise to get sub-par results but the dog just needs to understand it is a command not a choice... good luck and just remember level headed patience is key! and yeah TAKE UP ON THAT OFFER form Sharon Potter!


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

bamajama said:


> I've been working with a trainer who says my 8-month lab exhibits "hard mouth." I can't afford the $1,200 he's asking to correct the problem (without getting a divorce). What is the most effective and humane forced retrieving method? I'm a novice, but have the time and patience. Any recommendations?


 
Not sure where you live in Sodak, but curing the worst fault in retrieverdom for $1200 is a bargain in my mind. That assumes you are getting a real pro to handle the problem, not some 'wannabe' charlatan.

While Sharon's offer is inviting, I suspect it would be a wash in the $$$ column due to costs of travel and lodging etc.

"Exhibiting" hard mouth is also a gradation of actually 'having' that dreaded affliction. 

As a 'novice', you have provided only a small part of the information needed to assist you. As others have questioned...is the pup FF'd? What was it's socialization background? Did your children play 'tug-O-war'
with the dog?

It would also be advantageous to know something about the dog's ancestry. True hard mouths are frequently found among a family that's had those traits handed down to them.

Good luck with your decision.

UB


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