# Top Sires and Dams (2008-Present)



## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

When thinking about buying a puppy or making a breeding decision, many look at health clearances and lines. Many also consider what the sire or dam has produced in terms of performance. For example, are any progeny on the Derby List or have All-Age points or titles?

Anybody have any thoughts as to the top 10 sires (ranked by # of all-age points) of the past four years? (Lean Mac doesn't count!) 

How about the top10 dams (ranked by # of all-age points) of the past four years?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

JKOttman said:


> When thinking about buying a puppy or making a breeding decision, many look at health clearances and lines. Many also consider what the sire or dam has produced in terms of performance. For example, are any progeny on the Derby List or have All-Age points or titles?
> 
> Anybody have any thoughts as to the top 10 sires (ranked by # of all-age points) of the past four years? (Lean Mac doesn't count!)
> 
> How about the top10 dams (ranked by # of all-age points) of the past four years?


without looking at your site (which is VERY COOL) I will guess the top sire is either Creek Robber or Fargo II

the top dam ...my guess is Tequila or Kweezy


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Great guesses! Keep 'em coming!

Sires (2008 - Present)
#1. Lean Mac
#2. Fargo II
#3. Creek Robber
#4. Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow
#5. Code Blue
#6. Nick of Time Lone Ranger
#7. Maxx's Surprise
#8. Fordland's Bored Out Ford
#9. Chena River Chavez
#10. Carbon Copy of Horn Creek
#11. Dare to Dream
#12. Esprit's Out of the Woods
#13. Five Star General Patton
#17. Candlewoods Autumn Run Vince
#19. Running with the Devil
#22. Clubmead's Road Warrior
#26. Carolinas Smoke on the Water

Dams (2008 - Present)
#1. Tequilla Sunrise IX
#2. Candlewood's Rita Reynolds
#3. 
#4. Chena River Wild Lady
#5. 
#6. M and M's Buns of Steel
#7. Trumarc's Lean Cuisine
#8.
#9. Rebel Ridge Up All Nite
#10.
#11. Widgeon's C.C. Water Back

(If need be, we'll publish the complete lists here later tonight.)


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Carbon, chopper


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

Since you are hitting 08 & 09. How about Cosmo.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I don't know much about the top sires but I think my pup's granddam will rank right up there.FC AFC Candlewood Rita Reynolds.
I think Boss is the finest animal I have ever been around in all my years around dogs. He just needs a better trainer than what he's got.......LOL.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

How about FC/AFC Code Blue? FC/AFC Creek Robber?


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Yep they're on there. See updated list above.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Number of all age points is a neat metric. I would also be interested in seeing them ranked by points per start.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Hmmm. We can think about that. The statistics might get a bit complicated since we focus on dogs that "finish" a stake and the statistics cover multiple years. That said, we'll think about how to get at what you're looking for.


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

How about Vince and Esprits out of the Woods.

Aaron


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Aaron Homburg said:


> How about Vince and Esprits out of the Woods.
> 
> Aaron


Just missed the top 10, but they are ranked pretty high #17 and #12 respectively.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

SIRES
Esprit's Out of the Woods.
FC/AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger
FC/AFC Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow
FC/AFC Five Star General Patton
FC/AFC Fordland's Bored Out Ford
FC/AFC Carolina's Smoke on the Waters
NFC/AFC Maxx Surprise

DAMS
FC/AFC MM Buns of Steel
Widgeon's CC Waterback
FC/AFC Chena River Wild Lady


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

Dam: Rebel Ridge Up all Night

Sire: Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> SIRES
> Esprit's Out of the Woods.
> FC/AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger
> FC/AFC Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow
> ...


Wow Ted, you got a bunch of them. (See updated list.)


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Dan Storts said:


> Dam: Rebel Ridge Up all Night
> 
> another good one!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Chavez and maybe Devil?


God bless FC-AFC Teqilia Sunrise IX!


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Breck said:


> Chavez and maybe Devil?
> 
> 
> God bless FC-AFC Teqilia Sunrise IX!


Chavez is #9, so that rounds out the top 10 and Devil is #19.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Grady will rewrite the book on the top sire of all times. I promise! I have had 18 dogs come threw my kennel that made fc and none of them could hold a light to him. He is the best I have ever seen.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

kip said:


> Grady will rewrite the book on the top sire of all times. I promise! I have had 18 dogs come threw my kennel that made fc and none of them could hold a light to him. He is the best I have ever seen.


You may well be correct. For 2008-present, he is #2 in terms of producing dogs on the Derby list with 30. Chopper (#1) has 50.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

kip said:


> Grady will rewrite the book on the top sire of all times. I promise! I have had 18 dogs come threw my kennel that made fc and none of them could hold a light to him. He is the best I have ever seen.


Guess Chad had better collect more straws and have the repro facility get a bigger freezer


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## LAwaterfowler (Jan 22, 2009)

More of a question here guys than a name but are there any FC, AFC, QAA, dogs out of FC/AFC Trumarcs Stormin Norman II? I know he is a great dog and for a brief time there were many breedings out of him. Just kind of wondering if any dogs have turned out to be good/great dogs...?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Norman really clicked with Rachael. There are several QAA/derby list dogs out of the 1st breeding. Norman never really got his breedings to quality bitches that he should have.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Since 2009, Norman has three dogs on the Derby list: Duncan's Slew (18 pts, now QAA), Tall oaks hangin on a Limb (15 pts) and glade Creek's hit a wall (13 Pts, QAA with an Open 2nd and an Open Jam), Henfield's Zoey (QAA), JL's Daily Comic (QAA), The Vinwood Express (QAA), plus others with Q and Derby placements.

Hope this helps.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Time for me to go to bed so here's the list. Enjoy!

*Sires (2008 - Present)*
#1. Lean Mac
#2. Fargo II
#3. Creek Robber
#4. Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow
#5. Code Blue
#6. Nick of Time Lone Ranger
#7. Maxx's Surprise
#8. Fordland's Bored Out Ford
#9. Chena River Chavez
#10. Carbon Copy of Horn Creek
#11. Dare to Dream
#12. Esprit's Out of the Woods
#13. Five Star General Patton
#17. Candlewoods Autumn Run Vince
#19. Running with the Devil
#22. Clubmead's Road Warrior
#26. Carolinas Smoke on the Water

*Dams (2008 - Present)*
#1. Tequilla Sunrise IX
#2. Candlewood's Rita Reynolds
#3. Fishtrap Debbie Does Ducks
#4. Chena River Wild Lady
#5. Clubmead's Steel Magnolia
#6. M and M's Buns of Steel
#7. Trumarc's Lean Cuisine
#8. Scan's in the Nick of Time
#9. Rebel Ridge Up All Nite
#10.Cudashudabena Playgirl
#11. Widgeon's C.C. Water Back


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

Watch, Out For The Cosmo Puppies Next Year I Know Of Five That That Look Very Strong!!!!!!!!!! One Of Those Is Mine.
Dave Hare


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

JKOttman said:


> Time for me to go to bed so here's the list. Enjoy!
> 
> *Sires (2008 - Present)*
> #1. Lean Mac
> ...


This was posted on 11-29-2011. We are now half-way into 2012. I am wondering if there are additions to the list.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

I dusted that Ford semen off, breeding my Chopper female to him this spring


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

FC AFC Esprit's Power Play "Pow"


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Hi all, it's late, so here are the top five sires and dams. Please note: data is from 2005 - Present, thus derby pts for older dogs are probably understated. Find out more about sires, dams and litters by visiting RetrieverResults.

Top Sires and Dams: 2005 - Present

*Top 5 Sires
*Lean Mac: 203 total progeny; 138 earning 5964.5 AA pts (avg 40.3), 18 earning 149 Derby pts (avg 8.3)
Cosmo: 124 total progeny; 68 earning 1509 pts (avg 22.2), 48 earning 397 derby pts (avg 8.3)
Fargo II: 112 progeny; 58 earning 1441 AA pts (avg 24.8), 62 earning 742 derby pts (avg 12)
Chavez: 84 progeny: 55 earning 1239.5 AA pts (avg 22.5), 25 earning 245 derby pts (avg 9.8)
Code BLue: 41 progeny: 32 earning 1205 AA pts (avg 37.7), 10 earning 106 derby pts (avg 10.6)

*Top Dams*
Dest Devil's Desert Duk MH: 8 progeny; 8 earning 575 AA pts (avg 71.9), no derby pts
Scan's in the nick of Time: 13 progeny; 11 earning 538 AA pts (avg 48.9), no derby pts
Candlewoods Homely Hannah: 10 progeny; 10 earning 533 AA pts (avg 53.3), no derby pts
Tequilla Sunrise IX: 14 progeny: 10 with 531 AA pts (avg (53.1), 10 earning 194 derby pts (avg 19.4)
Candlewoo'ds Rita Reynolds: 30 progeny: 19 with 490.5 AA pts (avg 25.8), 16 earnings 160 dreby pts (avg 10)


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Pow is #31 on the list. In this list, the timeframe (2005 -Present) has a big impact on who's on top!


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

JKOttman said:


> Hi all, it's late, so here are the top five sires and dams. Please note: data is from 2005 - Present, thus derby pts for older dogs are probably understated. Find out more about sires, dams and litters by visiting RetrieverResults.
> 
> Top Sires and Dams: 2005 - Present
> 
> ...


You can really see the "Maxx effect" when you look at this list, huh?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

It would be interesting to see how the most bred list compared to the top producers list


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

junfan68 said:


> I dusted that Ford semen off, breeding my Chopper female to him this spring


And with more dust in the air Ford semen ships to GA today for my Chopper female.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

David McLendon said:


> And with more dust in the air Ford semen ships to GA today for my Chopper female.


David, did you decide against going back to Ozzy?


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## leemac (Dec 7, 2011)

*Side note question.*

Here's a novice observation. The top producing bitch, Dust Devils Desert Duk is the mother of Ford, Patton and her offspring have no Derby points. Upon closer inspection Maxx pups have far fewer Derby points than Cosmo pups. Are Lean Mac pups slower to mature?


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

JKOttman said:


> Hi all, it's late, so here are the top five sires and dams. Please note: data is from 2005 - Present, thus derby pts for older dogs are probably understated. Find out more about sires, dams and litters by visiting RetrieverResults.
> 
> Top Sires and Dams: 2005 - Present
> 
> ...


Not to get too "stat geek" with all this, but consider the biases in play here. Is it 100% that Lean Mac was just that good a producer? Or was some of it due to the fact that the people who were able to get Lean Mac progeny more committed to the game, and thus better trainers or better able to afford extensive professional help? To exaggerate, Lardy and I could take pups from two different but equally good litters to train, and I know where my money would be for which pup turns out the best.

Also, consider the sheer barrier to entry. My wife would collapse if I started talking about paying $2000 plus for a retriever pup. At least until she has those earrings she has been wanting.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

leemac said:


> Here's a novice observation. The top producing bitch, Dust Devils Desert Duk is the mother of Ford, Patton and her offspring have no Derby points. Upon closer inspection Maxx pups have far fewer Derby points than Cosmo pups. Are Lean Mac pups slower to mature?



Maybe it was just that a majority of the pups went to folks that trained more for the all-age stakes and didn't worry too much about a big derby career?? Just a thought...


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

leemac said:


> Here's a novice observation. The top producing bitch, Dust Devils Desert Duk is the mother of Ford, Patton and her offspring have no Derby points. Upon closer inspection Maxx pups have far fewer Derby points than Cosmo pups. Are Lean Mac pups slower to mature?


Ford was a FC AFC as a 2 year old!!!! Who really cares that he was on The Derby List? Rather pale in comparison. 

If you think Patton & his siblings had no derby points, I feel sorry for you. 

Seriously, I'm about ready to pull a Mike Gundy on getting your facts straight.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Brian Cockfield said:


> David, did you decide against going back to Ozzy?


 Brian sent you a pm.


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## SSCarnage (Feb 3, 2012)

I understand that the focus seems to be solely based on field trial competitors and their offspring... Any thought given to the offspring of these dogs in the other games like the AKC hunt tests and HRC hunt tests and how they have made out over the years? I know of a few grand hunt retriever champions and national master hunters that are getting no recognition...


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

SSCarnage said:


> I understand that the focus seems to be solely based on field trial competitors and their offspring... Any thought given to the offspring of these dogs in the other games like the AKC hunt tests and HRC hunt tests and how they have made out over the years? I know of a few grand hunt retriever champions and national master hunters that are getting no recognition...


I've wondered the same thing...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

SSCarnage said:


> I understand that the focus seems to be solely based on field trial competitors and their offspring... Any thought given to the offspring of these dogs in the other games like the AKC hunt tests and HRC hunt tests and how they have made out over the years? I know of a few grand hunt retriever champions and national master hunters that are getting no recognition...



one of the reasons they get no recognition is the same reason the sports world knows of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning,Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers but very few people outside of of those that watch know who won the Grey Cup or who Damon Allen,Anthony Calvillo,or Travis Lulay are....


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

SSCarnage said:


> I understand that the focus seems to be solely based on field trial competitors and their offspring... Any thought given to the offspring of these dogs in the other games like the AKC hunt tests and HRC hunt tests and how they have made out over the years? I know of a few grand hunt retriever champions and national master hunters that are getting no recognition...


No offense, but with the right trainer an average back yard bred dog can get the HT titles. It takes something truly special to become FC/AFC.


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## SSCarnage (Feb 3, 2012)

Oh I understand we are comparing 1st, 2nd, 3rd vs pass or fail standards... But at the same time what about those dogs who have had multiple grand passes like Big Black Dude II, won 5 straight! Or other multiple mnh passes. I wouldn't see those being easy accomplishments for weekend warriors....


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

SSCarnage said:


> Oh I understand we are comparing 1st, 2nd, 3rd vs pass or fail standards... But at the same time what about those dogs who have had multiple grand passes like Big Black Dude II, won 5 straight! Or other multiple mnh passes. I wouldn't see those being easy accomplishments for weekend warriors....


Doesn't compare.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The HRC and AKC publish stats for their top Sires and Dams in the HT world, their are a lot of the same names on those list. I know FC Viking was really high up there last year.


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## Brandon Bromley (Dec 21, 2006)

JKOttman said:


> Hi all, it's late, so here are the top five sires and dams. Please note: data is from 2005 - Present, thus derby pts for older dogs are probably understated. Find out more about sires, dams and litters by visiting RetrieverResults.
> 
> Top Sires and Dams: 2005 - Present
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! I hope you're able to continue going further back in time. I'd LOVE to see numbers of these (and a few others) from ALL their offspring! Waiting to see the "whole Pie" over the "2005-present slice".


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

JKOttman said:


> *Top Dams*
> Dest Devil's Desert Duk MH: 8 progeny; 8 earning 575 AA pts (avg 71.9), no derby pts
> 
> 
> ...


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

John,

I don't think your check book could survive the cost of a puppy "if" the breeding could take place....I know mine couldn't! Sorry we are low life wannabes when it comes to "high stake gambling" in the FT world!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

For all of you HRC types did you know that Dust Devil's Desert Duk was an HRCH & a MH. She produced the famous Keila, Ford, NFC Patton et al litter. Keila produced some of the best dogs running today from 4 different sires including 4, maybe 5, who are running this years National Amateur. More than any other bitch has qualified.


God bless FC-AFC Tequilla Sunrise IX.


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## leemac (Dec 7, 2011)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Ford was a FC AFC as a 2 year old!!!! Who really cares that he was on The Derby List? Rather pale in comparison.
> 
> If you think Patton & his siblings had no derby points, I feel sorry for you.
> 
> Seriously, I'm about ready to pull a Mike Gundy on getting your facts straight.


According to the chart listed above, Dust Devil's Desert Duk had eight progeny with zero derby points, hence the question. Knowing about the this litter, I was surprised to read that out of Ford, Patton, Izzy, and the other five titled dogs for that litter that (once again according to the above chart) not one of those dogs had a derby points.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Hi all, I suspect, but will look into it more closely tomorrow, that the issue is whether or not the dogs you referenced had pups that competed as Derby dogs in or since 2005. I suspect their careers were earlier and thus their results are not yet in the RR database. All that said, I will check tomorrow.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Breck said:


> For all of you HRC types did you know that Dust Devil's Desert Duk was an HRCH & a MH.
> .


breck,
inspiration for *everyone* with a mh and/or hrch bitch to think she can produce a performance litter. we minor hunt testers don't need that kind of encouragement!


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

leemac said:


> According to the chart listed above, Dust Devil's Desert Duk had eight progeny with zero derby points, hence the question. Knowing about the this litter, I was surprised to read that out of Ford, Patton, Izzy, and the other five titled dogs for that litter that (once again according to the above chart) not one of those dogs had a derby points.


Not everyone cares about running a Derby.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Again, the derby points for the 2 breedings between those dogs are wrong.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

kjrice said:


> Not everyone cares about running a Derby.



............X2


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Surprised that I didn't see Hattie Mcbunn. She must have barely missed the list?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

jeff evans said:


> Surprised that I didn't see Hattie Mcbunn. She must have barely missed the list?


Maybe the timing was wrong. Hattie was born in 1990 and had her only litter in 1997 with LeanMac, and was the NAFC in 1998. That one litter produced 6FC, 2 QAA and 1 MH. The stats on her would be interesting.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Don't let John fool ya, his check book is plenty deep. I just wish he would share with me.


FOM said:


> John,
> 
> I don't think your check book could survive the cost of a puppy "if" the breeding could take place....I know mine couldn't! Sorry we are low life wannabes when it comes to "high stake gambling" in the FT world!


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Maybe the timing was wrong. Hattie was born in 1990 and had her only litter in 1997 with LeanMac, and was the NAFC in 1998. That one litter produced 6FC, 2 QAA and 1 MH. The stats on her would be interesting.


Was she only bred once? I was under the impression she was bred 2x to lean mac?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Maybe the timing was wrong. Hattie was born in 1990 and had her only litter in 1997 with LeanMac, and was the NAFC in 1998. That one litter produced 6FC, 2 QAA and 1 MH. The stats on her would be interesting.


I got a puppy out of one of the QAA bitches. What a crazy knucklehead SOB he turned out to be. LOL
The 6 FC's Tiger, Dice, Bunns, Gates, Whitie and Doc were also AFC's except for Dice. I think her only puppy is entered in the National Am. 5 of the Hattie litter sort of dominated the eastern circuit for a while.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

jeff evans said:


> Was she only bred once? I was under the impression she was bred 2x to lean mac?


http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=427843#animal


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> including 4, maybe 5, who are running this years National Amateur. More than any other bitch has qualified.
> God bless FC-AFC Tequilla Sunrise IX.


FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine has 6, 3 entered, 2 not running the Natl Am, and 1 deceased


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine has 6, 3 entered, 2 not running the Natl Am, and 1 deceased


Cool! Congrats! Hope they're all there at the end!

Hey Dr Ed. ?
Since Dust Devils Desert Duk was by JazzTime and a Cody bitch who ended being the best producing bitches like Keila that descended from Honcho?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> Cool! Congrats! Hope they're all there at the end!
> 
> Hey Dr Ed. ?
> Since Dust Devils Desert Duk was by JazzTime and a Cody bitch who ended being the best producing bitches like Keila that descended from Honcho?


descended from meaning 1st generation or beyond?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> descended from meaning 1st generation or beyond?


I mean that threw stuff recently or ran this decade and nicked with more than one sire.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> I mean that threw stuff recently or ran this decade and nicked with more than one sire.


of course most notably his granddaughter 3X NFC Candlewood's Tanks Alot with 22 titled offspring, her daughter AFC Candlewood's Ms Costalot with 14 titled offspring, and her daughter FC-AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine with 10 titled offspring (with one or two more to come hopefully)


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Guess the 2 you're hoping for are from Willie x Kweezy? Willie's sire is out of Dust Devil's Desert Duk too.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> Guess the 2 you're hoping for are from Willie x Kweezy? Willie's sire is out of Dust Devil's Desert Duk too.


Guess that makes a double whammy on the bitch side, 6 in the litter, one FC, one AFC (mine), one with an Amateur win (mine also), one with 2 Qualifying wins and a number of all-age JAMs, one never trained due to early medical problems, and the other in training with a prominent pro.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I sure do like that FC. She's the real deal & very handicapped handler (Not a real mental or physical disorder.) friendly.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I sure do like that FC. She's the real deal & very handicapped handler (Not a real mental or physical disorder.) friendly.


I've always liked her and encouraged her original owner/trainer not to sell her. I really like the AFC too who runs lots fewer trials and has a much less talented handler/trainer.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

It would be very hard for me to let her go, but alas I'm certain the original owner has had a sack full of sure enough good ones. Then again I'm also certain said person is one brilliant trainer. I must find time to train a few days with her. Maybe I can talk you 2 into coming down to Anderson when the dogs are back down. I obviously have not watched Holland more than just the 2 times @ The Open. I'd like to see him in training. Time is my biggest issue, but I'll make time for that.


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

leemac said:


> According to the chart listed above, Dust Devil's Desert Duk had eight progeny with zero derby points, hence the question. Knowing about the this litter, I was surprised to read that out of Ford, Patton, Izzy, and the other five titled dogs for that litter that (once again according to the above chart) not one of those dogs had a derby points.



I looked up a few of the dogs mentioned and here's why the data seems a bit whacky. The Retriever Results database goes back to 2005. Patton, born in 4/12/1997, had completed his derby career by 1999, six years before our db starts. As we build history, his and others' derby career results will start to show up under their respective sires and dams.


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## ragon (Jun 25, 2012)

savage25xtreme said:


> No offense, but with the right trainer an average back yard bred dog can get the HT titles. It takes something truly special to become FC/AFC.


Seen many dogs out off high bred FC/AFC not pass the Grand, just saying! why downgrade a dogs acomplishments when it is 2 differant styles of training, to each his own , which direction he chooses too pursue in the dog world should not be looked down the nose by any man!!!!!!


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

ragon said:


> Seen many dogs out off high bred FC/AFC not pass the Grand, just saying! why downgrade a dogs acomplishments when it is 2 differant styles of training, to each his own , which direction he chooses too pursue in the dog world should not be looked down the nose by any man!!!!!!


First post and thats the best you can come up with. Who's looking down there nose at who?


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## ragon (Jun 25, 2012)

rboudet said:


> First post and thats the best you can come up with. Who's looking down there nose at who?


never said anything about anyones dog, think all of them are great, and you will never hear me say anything negative about any of the dog games, too much respect for them, will not look down my nose at anybody that puts their time into a dog!


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

ragon said:


> Seen many dogs out off high bred FC/AFC not pass the Grand, just saying! why downgrade a dogs acomplishments when it is 2 differant styles of training, to each his own , which direction he chooses too pursue in the dog world should not be looked down the nose by any man!!!!!!



Then, it has to be their training.


We have a little bitch that lives down here that has produced two Nat'l Am finalist by two different studs! Only one pup from her first litter went to a serious FT home. Her second litter has one FC AFC Nat'l Am finalist with possibly more since that litter is 4 years old. I made a duck hunt with Bayou Teche Angel a few seasons ago and she didn't get tired until she had retrieved over 60 ducks that morning. That's my kind of dam. ;-)


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## ragon (Jun 25, 2012)

Franco said:


> Then, it has to be their training.
> 
> 
> We have a little bitch that lives down here that has produced two Nat'l Am finalist by two different studs! Only one pup from her first litter went to a serious FT home. Her second litter has one FC AFC Nat'l Am finalist with possibly more since that litter is 4 years old. I made a duck hunt with Bayou Teche Angel a few seasons ago and she didn't get tired until she had retrieved over 60 ducks that morning. That's my kind of dam. ;-)


more than likely is their traning, or just not mature enuff, some dogs just don't have it, some do, the point i was trying to make all dogs were a backyard breeding at one time, I sold a puppy out of Punch, because i could not let him be all that he could, awesome little dog, passed the grand at 2 y/o, wish he was running trials, you may see him befor its over, I hope anyway, just saying your next FC/AFC may come out from under someones porch! i will just keep rooting for each and everydog to do their best, i want them all to suceed! 
taking my back yard bred HRC dog and moving on!


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

ragon said:


> taking my back yard bred HRC dog and moving on!


Gene,

I think it is great to pursue whatever venue you and your dog can be successful at and enjoy. I run the legs off of my BYB dog in HTs and love every minute of it. But this thread is about top producing sires and dams in the FT world, which IMHO is the pinnacle of our sport. So bringing top producing sire and dams of HTs into the mix didn't really make sense to me.

Odds of a BYB dog being successful in the HT world - pretty darn good
Odds of a BYB dog being successful in the FT world - slim to none
Odds of a very nice bred dog being successful in the FT world - SLIM!


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## ragon (Jun 25, 2012)

savage25xtreme said:


> Gene,
> 
> I think it is great to pursue whatever venue you and your dog can be successful at and enjoy. I run the legs off of my BYB dog in HTs and love every minute of it. But this thread is about top producing sires and dams in the FT world, which IMHO is the pinnacle of our sport. So bringing top producing sire and dams of HTs into the mix didn't really make sense to me.
> 
> ...


Gotcha and understand where you are coming from, and agree that not likely to excell in FT world, I know all dogs are not created equal, i guess your post just rubbed me wrong, as mine did to others! I am very proud of my BYB dog, he is the first to title on either akc or ukc side of his pedigree, (or lack their of) , one pass away from master, should have had it but stomach flip after last falls Grand kinda put a damper on it, I got a bad habit of taking up for the little guys


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

ragon said:


> Gotcha and understand where you are coming from, and agree that not likely to excell in FT world, I know all dogs are not created equal, i guess your post just rubbed me wrong, as mine did to others! I am very proud of my BYB dog, he is the first to title on either akc or ukc side of his pedigree, (or lack their of) , one pass away from master, should have had it but stomach flip after last falls Grand kinda put a damper on it, I got a bad habit of taking up for the little guys


You should be proud of what you have accomplished with your dog. There is room for all in the various games. I would much rather see someone running a hunt test, FT, playing dock dog or OB than doing what I have been doing the last few years and that is letting my well bred dogs sit around the house and get fat!


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