# HRC Seasoned Switch or Failure



## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

So no one thinks I am outing anyone I am the judge in question in this scenario. I will not mention the name of my co-judge. He was apprenticing under me at the time and I take full responsibility for the decision even though he has an equal say.

Straight up Seasoned land double with a diversion after the last bird. Dog retrieves first bird, delivers to hand. Dog retrieves second bird, diversion is thrown away from dog, dog returns to heel, spits bird out on ground, handler sends dog to retrieve diversion. Diversion delivered to hand, dog picks up second mark from ground. This all happened very quickly.

WHAT HAPPENED??? Switch or Failure?
I will report how we judged it after some input and discussion.

This is being discussed on the HRC Field Rep forum. I have been told I was wrong. I am interested to see what others think.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

handler error
- sorry you failed - nice dog though and you are welcome back to run the water if you'd like.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Ken Newcomb said:


> So no one thinks I am outing anyone I am the judge in question in this scenario. I will not mention the name of my co-judge. He was apprenticing under me at the time and I take full responsibility for the decision even though he has an equal say.
> 
> Straight up Seasoned land double with a diversion after the last bird. Dog retrieves first bird, delivers to hand. Dog retrieves second bird, diversion is thrown away from dog, dog returns to heel, spits bird out on ground, handler sends dog to retrieve diversion. Diversion delivered to hand, dog picks up second mark from ground. This all happened very quickly.
> 
> ...


In Season I don't think a switch is a fail, I could be wrong so I'd say the dog passed ?


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

I ran one of mine and she did the same thing. She was coming in with bird and diversion was thrown, she droped bird and brought back diversion. Then sent her for the other bird.
I dont remeber if she was test dog or running the test, but the judges told me, it wasnt concidered a switch on a diversion. I thought it would have been a switch
Or maybe they just told me it was ok in seasoned.
Sorry for no help here


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## Brian Courser (Feb 10, 2010)

In seasoned is that you shall not fail but will be marked scored lower by the Judges. What difference does it make if you consider this a switch at the line or next to the bird. From your post the dog delieverd all three birds to hand. Just not in the most orthdoxe way


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Switching should not fail the dog unless he didnt score very good in the rest of the test..... If he did the blinds decent and picked up all the chickens I would think a PASS would be in order.......


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

How can a dog _dropping _a bird and getting another be a pass?


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

A switch is not a failure in Seasoned. I don't care where the dog switched at. He still passes and I just mark it on my sheet. 

However, after reading Ken's post again I see he said the Handler sent the dog to the Diversion. Now you have added another element. The dog did not switch on his own. The handler sent the dog to the diversion. Why did the handler not just require the dog to fetch up the dropped bird?  I can see where this is going.


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

If the dog passed all the other elements of the test and only switched the dog clearly gets a pass according to rule book like stated by others. 
On the other hand if the handler had problems controlling the dog on the switch and had another control issue elsewere in the test then my co-judge and I would be giving the issue a more serious look.


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## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

In the scenario the dog didn't switch. The HANDLER was to slow in receiving the bird while the dog was re-aligned and sent to pick up the diversion


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I dont know why I am replying!!!

I must have a problem

I cant stay out of this stuff!

I didnt actually see it happen. so I'll cover my bases there and sit on the middle of the fence,, I have to see it to judge it!! Hows that??

BUT


I read it as the dog came back to the line with the second bird,, and Failed to deliver to hand. 
Then the dog was sent for the diversion.

There was no switch. 

There was a failer to deliver to hand.

Dog fails!!


I bet people are out findin another short rope and a tall tree!

Look ,, Ya kint killl me twice!!!

Gooser


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

AS per rule book page 40 part VII "A diversionary bird can be thrown after the walk-up , blind, or last retrieve of a double mark. If a seasoned hunting retriever switches to the diversionary bird, it will not fail but will be scored lower by the judge. The hunting retriever shall retrieve the diversionary bird."


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## gward (Mar 15, 2010)

Don't sound like he switched to me, sounds like the handler sent him before he delivered the go bird to hand. Sorry bout your luck Chuck thanks for the donation!


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

As long as the handler has not touched the bird "mark #2" it doesn't matter. How can you say he sent him for the diversion. Handler may have been nervous and said the dogs name out of confusion and the dog picks up the diversion. 
I'm sure as a judge you will see a lot more crazier things happen at season level.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Brad said:


> I ran one of mine and she did the same thing. She was coming in with bird and diversion was thrown, she droped bird and brought back diversion. Then sent her for the other bird.
> I dont remeber if she was test dog or running the test, but the judges told me, it wasnt concidered a switch on a diversion. I thought it would have been a switch
> Or maybe they just told me it was ok in seasoned.
> Sorry for no help here


Sorry, I didnt study the OP that good, but mine was coming in with the 2nd bird and as soon as diversion was thrown she dropped it in route and picked up the diversion, then was sent to droped bird and picked it up.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I don't think you are calling judges out as much as you are the handler......

On one hand, DOUGH! for sending the dog to pick up the other bird w/o making it pick up the bird......

on teh other hand, quick thinking to not pick the bird up and make the dog do it when it returned.....

Don't play the HRC game but the dog clearly failed to deliver to hand in the process of switching, but if a switch in the field at the diversion bird is allowed.... the dog clearly performed the diversion bird better then if it had run over and switched, so if a dog that blatently switched at the bird is allowed to pass I would have a hard time not interpretting the rules to allow this dog to pass. BUt I may give the handler the bonehead award at the banquet.....

One time I saw a dog in a stake where delivery to hand was not required, failed for being slightly sticky on one bird, and moderately sticky on another (had to be told three times to drop, with some tugging) The judge said repeated evidence of sticky is grounds for failure but passed the dog that dropped all five birds at the handlers feet.....

I see this as similar, the sticky dog perfromed clearly better then the dog that did not deliver to hand, not perfect by anymeans, but better then spitting birds. The dog that "switched" at the line, clearly performed better then a dog that ran straight over and switched at the fall. 

I could defend passing the dog, but if you didn't pass the dog, I could defend that as well as looking at teh handler and saying it was the HANDLERS fault.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

Brad said:


> Sorry, I didnt study the OP that good, but mine was coming in with the 2nd bird and as soon as diversion was thrown she dropped it in route and picked up the diversion, then was sent to droped bird and picked it up.


And you would have passed as long as everything else was good.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

> AS per rule book page 40 part VII "A diversionary bird can be thrown after the walk-up , blind, or last retrieve of a double mark. If a seasoned hunting retriever switches to the diversionary bird, it will not fail but will be scored lower by the judge. The hunting retriever shall retrieve the diversionary bird."


you left out the middle part of that paragraph:
"a switch is defined as dropping one bird and picking up another bird. The *purpose of the test* is to require the Seasoned dog to demonstrate a reasonable degree of *control on the return *from a retrieve."

Dog returned to the line in the OP scenario. Dropped the bird at the line and went for the diversion. Unless your point is the dog is still returning because he has not delivered to hand yet - the dog/handler has shown no control and gets a 0 score there. 

hard A$$ regards


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

I wrote the quote straight out the book. It maybe an older book. Jan/1/07 
No pun intended!!


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I dont know why I am replying!!!
> 
> I must have a problem
> 
> ...




YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY WITH THIS ONE. The dog did not switch because it came back to the handler, dropped the marked retriever and was sent for the diversion bird.

The dog failed for not delivering to hand!!!

Janet


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

mine is dated Jan 1, 2011


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY WITH THIS ONE. The dog did not switch because it came back to the handler, dropped the marked retriever and was sent for the diversion bird.
> 
> The dog failed for not delivering to hand!!!
> 
> Janet


 
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!



Write this date in time down!!!!

tequilla shots fer everbody!!

Better yet!!

Body shots off Gooser fer everbody!!!

I cant beleiev this!!!

First time in 60 years!!!

I LOVE YOU MISS JANET!!!! WILL YOU MARRY ME!!

OOOPS WAIT!!!

I already done that twice!

Gooser


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY WITH THIS ONE. The dog did not switch because it came back to the handler, dropped the marked retriever and was sent for the diversion bird.
> 
> The dog failed for not delivering to hand!!!
> 
> Janet


What difference does it matter if the bird was dropped at the handlers feet or 30 yards away, I see it as a switch. The dog did deliver ever bird to had just not in consecutive order ;-)


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

FAIL.

Didn't deliver to hand. Rules: "The bird must be delivered to hand." I think of it in the context of hunting. What if this was hunting and the dropped bird was a cripple? 

Plus, "Judges decisions are final."  

Mark down too for switching to the diversion abeit handler error.

Interesting.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

In my mind this can't be a switch because the handler *sent* the dog for the diversion. You don't send a dog on a switch the dog becomes self-employed and switches, you grumble about it back on the line. HRC = 40% handler: 60% dog, handler failed the team in this case, by not making the dog deliver to hand. Dog should be the one grumbling back in the box, Dog Pass, Handler Fail. Team Fail


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

You need to read what Ken wrote happend. The dog did not switch. The handler sent the dog to the diversion before delivering the memory bird to hand. The dog was only doing what he was instructed to do. DAH


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You just made me laugh out loud. And just so you know, I have done it twice too and do not plan on a third. 

Janet


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## K.S. (May 20, 2011)

Fail, was it DAH, absolutely, was it a switch, by the rule book yes. *But IMO fails for lack of control because the dog was right there by the handler and they should have more control over the dog when its right there vs. 20-30 yards out in the field.Fail, was it DAH, absolutely, was it a switch, by the rule book yes. *But IMO fails for lack of control because the dog was right there by the handler and they should have more control over the dog when its right there at heel vs. 20-30 yards out in the field.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> So no one thinks I am outing anyone I am the judge in question in this scenario. I will not mention the name of my co-judge. He was apprenticing under me at the time and I take full responsibility for the decision even though he has an equal say.
> 
> Straight up Seasoned land double with a diversion after the last bird. Dog retrieves first bird, delivers to hand. Dog retrieves second bird, diversion is thrown away from dog, dog returns to heel, spits bird out on ground, handler sends dog to retrieve diversion. Diversion delivered to hand, dog picks up second mark from ground. This all happened very quickly.
> 
> ...


The dog has failed for failure to complete a retrieve, by not delivering to hand and handler sending the dog on the diversion. Now if the dog would have dropped the bird and went on his own to P/U the diversion, then it is marked on the sheet but not grounds for failure on it's own. 

Rule book states that in Seasoned, Finished, Upland and the Grand that the retriever must deliver to hand. In this case the dog did not before being "SENT" by the handler to make another retrieve


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> You just made me laugh out loud. And just so you know, I have done it twice too and do not plan on a third.
> 
> Janet


 
WHEW!!!!

Mrs Gooser is just pullin in the driveway from work!
She always aks me "What did you do today"

I dont know how I would have responded to her Ifn you had accepted my offer!!!

I wish I could stay out a trouble.

Gooser


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> How can a dog _dropping _a bird and getting another be a pass?


By reading the Rules.



.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Doc E said:


> By reading the Rules.
> 
> 
> 
> .


So the dog doesn't have to deliver a bird to hand in seasoned but it does in finished? That's not what these judges seem to be saying.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Dog did not Fail, but should have been (significantly) marked down.



.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> So the dog doesn't have to deliver a bird to hand in finished? That's not what these judges seem to be saying.


This was a SEASONED Test, not Finished.

Note the title of the thread : *"HRC Seasoned Switch or Failure"* 



.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

I agree with the Gooser, however I'll pass on the body shots!


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I think I agree with Gooser, if'n I read the OP correctly.


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## snota deaco (Oct 29, 2007)

Dog Fails 
Failure to deliver to hand...


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## hntnlabs (Feb 29, 2008)

It seems to me that the dog should fail (because of the DAH). The dog didn't switch but fail to deliver to hand. When the dog is sent for the diversion the handler ended one portion of the test and started another. If you look at the judges sheet they are separate components. pass/fail for marks and a pass/fail for the diversion. That’s my take but I've been wrong before...
Shannon


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

I'd like to know what the handler told the dog that acually indicated he sent the dog for the diversionary bird. I think that would be a major factor on my decision. 
Judges saw it, judges have to make the call. Judges rule is final. 
Why rock the boat, you'll loose anyway regardless.
I have been on both sides of the fence. Sometimes they give sometimes they take. Complaining want change the result.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

robertnla said:


> I'd like to know what the handler told the dog that acually indicated he sent the dog for the diversionary bird. I think that would be a major factor on my decision.
> Judges saw it, judges have to make the call. Judges rule is final.
> Why rock the boat, you'll loose anyway regardless.
> I have been on both sides of the fence. Sometimes they give sometimes they take. Complaining want change the result.


I think you missed the OP's indication that he was one of the judges. This was not complaining by a handler. And the judge (OP) said the handler "sent" the dog.

Janet


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

fail ,dog did not deliver to hand.


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## scott2012 (Feb 16, 2009)

fail.....did not deliver to hand.


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## robertnla (Oct 16, 2008)

If it were my dog I would have put him back on the truck. Judge would not have to deside what to do. I'd a made it easy for them. Handler made a bad decision.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

GulfCoast said:


> I think I agree with Gooser, if'n I read the OP correctly.


 
You feel ok???:razz:

Gooser


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Just a little bit scary huh, Gooser??? You are in the majority!!!

Janet


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## clipper (May 11, 2003)

I judge seasoned... I can see the dilema... and you dont have hours to discuss and think about it. People here have hit exactly on the question... the dog DID deliver to hand after picking up the diversion bird.. however the handler compounded the problem by sending him for the diversion after dropping the mark. In the heat of the moment I probably would have called it a switch... but with time to think about it I'm not so sure. 
Let's see if the dog spits out any more birds and how well he performs overall. The handler did make a mistake, but I'm not so sure it was a fatal one. 
If everything else goes well, I would be of mind to pass the dog. If I'm going to error, let's do it in favor of the dog. We are looking for dogs that we would like to hunt with, and I dont think this would make me think this dog was unsuitable as a hunting partner.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Seems to me judges are supposed to exercise common sense. Also HRC dogs are to be evaluated as to their suitablity as a hunting dog not as an OTCH candidate at an OCD convention.

If this was the only time the dog laid a bird on the ground, I'd want to call the it a DAH mistake more than anything else. Those analites in the crowd - have the dog pick up the bird and deliver it to hand for cryin' out loud, so its a little late, give him a control markdown, call it a "switch", give the handler a bunch of grief at the ribbon ceremony and move on.

Pencil whippin regards


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> Just a little bit scary huh, Gooser??? You are in the majority!!!
> 
> Janet


This has NEVER happened in the time of Man!!!

I told Mrs Gooser I *might* be right about sumpin..

She said she was glad,, but she felt it was prolly sumpin she proved to me I was wrong about before,,, and I just fergot!!,,, but then rememnberor~~~~~~ some thing like that,,, I'll have to ask her again!!


Whats this worm doin in the bottom of thiisie herere bottle?



Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Whats an analality??

is it like an enigma?

or is it anthrapomorphic?

Gooser


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

anal-ite  physchologically inflexible person whose vision is severely obstructed due to cranium being inserted in rectum.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I am not a judge, but have run a fair amount of HRC.

If I have a clear understanding of how it went down, I think the correct ruling would be that the dog failed because it failed to deliver to hand. It was absolutely a DAH situation, but you know what? A DAH CAN cause their dog to fail. I know because I've done it and I've seen it. If I was there and the dog passed, would I get all torked up about it? I don't think so. If I'm not the judge then it really doesn't concern me if someone else's dog got a break that maybe they as team did not deserve.

Heck, the dog could do everything perfectly and the handler could fail the team for gun safety. It is a team effort.

I don't see how it could be a switch if the dog was sent for the diversion. The dog was doing what it was commanded to do. The problem was that the handler didn't command the dog to complete the 2nd retrieve before commanding it to begin another retrieve...but the dog was in no sense out of control so I just don't see it as a switch.

This isn't nearly as cut and dried as the AKC Master dog that left the line on "dog" IMO.

By the way, I think it is pretty cool that these 2 judges (this one and the one in the AKC "breaking" scenario) put these out there for discussion knowing they might receive some criticism. This is a pretty weird scenario but these are pretty good discussions I think.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I just had to ask dint I!

Gooser


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## QuillToller (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm with RedDevil and clipper. I don't run many tests but long time ago took the HRC judges/handlers seminar and seem to remember - quite sure it was even in the seminar booklet (still have it but can't get to it now) dogs are failed if they fail to meet the standard, not for their handler forgetting to shoot the gun or other nervous errors. (Excepting gun safety)
Someone mentioned if the bird dropped at feet had been a cripple it would have got away. Also a bird would get away if the hunter forgot to shoot 
Like I said this seminar was a long time ago...standards seem to get higher in this game as time goes on and of course there've been a few rule changes too.
--betty


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Kevinismybrother said:


> "a switch is defined as dropping one bird and picking up another bird. ..."


There ought to be two terms for "switching" - one for switching birds (as here) and another for switching hunts (as in go out, hunt for the first bird, then"switching" to a hunt for another fall.)

As to this scenario, it's certainly very undesirable behavior... (I've only run one Seasoned test, but lots of Finished ones.) Ribbon or not, something to work on when you get home.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I dont know why I am replying!!!
> 
> I must have a problem
> 
> ...


HEY! Mooser gets its. Nice!


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

I can see i gonna need 2 black books 1 for AKC 1 for HRC


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Here is how it played out.

The dog was failed for “failure to deliver to hand.”

Here is my justification. When the dog failed to deliver to hand he was at heel. The handler had two options pick up the dropped bird or go for the diversion. He chose to go for the diversion bird. At this point he non-verbally said to me, “I am satisfied with my marking test please score me accordingly.” The handler could have made any attempt short of touching the bird or dog to get the dog to pick that bird up before retrieving the diversion bird. 
I did not consider this to be a switch because the dog did not drop a bird in order to retrieve another bird. The dog failed to deliver a bird to hand and then was sent by its handler to retrieve the diversion bird. As per my score sheet the dog passed the diversion portion but failed the marking test.
The question was raised as to how do I know that the handler sent the dog for the diversion? Let me start with this was not my first rodeo. I have approximately 50 judging assignments under my belt and I try to always give the dog benefit of the doubt. The dog was at heel was looking towards the diversion bird and was sent by the handler; “FIDO”. There was no attempt to stop the dog to come back to the dropped bird. In fact before I said anything at the end of the test the handler said, “I suppose I should have picked that one up first.” 

Now throw in that we are being pushed to notify handlers immediately of failing performances. I felt this situation fit the bill because it wouldn’t be long and that dog would spat the bird out 20 feet from the handler and went on its own. So in a matter of seconds this was my thoughts and justification for failing the dog.

My FR came and spoke with me about it during the water series and asked me to justify that it wasn’t a switch. This is the same explanation I gave him. I thought we were all good with what happened. 

If anyone has any questions I welcome any contact.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

I assume your co-judge agreed with you as to what he saw happen?


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Ken Newcomb said:


> Here is how it played out.
> 
> The dog was failed for “failure to deliver to hand.”
> 
> ...


Sounds very reasonable, what did the apprentice think?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I agree. The dog delivered the first bird, but not to hand. Pretty clear cut and not a switch.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

red devil said:


> Seems to me judges are supposed to exercise common sense. Also HRC dogs are to be evaluated as to their suitablity as a hunting dog not as an OTCH candidate at an OCD convention.
> 
> If this was the only time the dog laid a bird on the ground, I'd want to call the it a DAH mistake more than anything else. Those analites in the crowd - have the dog pick up the bird and deliver it to hand for cryin' out loud, so its a little late, give him a control markdown, call it a "switch", give the handler a bunch of grief at the ribbon ceremony and move on.
> 
> Pencil whippin regards


No Pencil whipping here. The dog failed to deliver a bird to hand before being "sent" to make the next retrieve. Simple answer according to the rules of a Seasoned Test.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Dman said:


> I assume your co-judge agreed with you as to what he saw happen?


We both agreed to fail the dog. He was apprenticing and I do believe he was looking for guidance. It was a weird situation to deal with.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Great job of figuring this out on the fly. This would be one that I would have to think about, regardless of how much HRC is pushing to advise the handler at the line.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ken Newcomb said:


> Here is how it played out.
> 
> The dog was failed for “failure to deliver to hand.”
> 
> ...


When the dog came in for the retrieve, the handler should have had the dog fetch the bird up when he dropped it before he sent the dog for the diversion. That is where the mistake was made-next time handler will know. I learned something.


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## fishn (Jul 24, 2007)

Guys and gals, I have never even seen a started test yet, but hope to get into this fun stuff one of these days, Good Lord willing. So I am reading to learn, not reading to make my judgement....anyway, let's say down the road my dog and I do this exact same thing. She drops the 2nd bird before delivery to hand. Can I tell her to "fetch" the second bird without her failing? 

Reason I ask, I've read someplace before where it says you can't talk to the dog at the line, other than to send her or him. Not sure if that was HRC or AKC. But other than releasing the dog and casting/stopping by whistle, what can you verbally say to your dog from the line? "Here", "fetch", "over" ? Is there a place to read specific details that tell you exactly what you can and cannot do?

And on this specific test again, the dog failed because it did not deliver to hand in the order it was retrieved? 

I'm trying to learn, so bear with me if these are dumb questions.

Thanks

(Looks like Mary Lynn was typing at the same time as me and may have answered part of my question-thanks)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> We both agreed to fail the dog. He was apprenticing and I do believe he was looking for guidance. It was a weird situation to deal with.


 
I have always respected you as a judge.
HRC is lucky to have you.

The appentice that sat next to you that day, should consider him or herself very lucky to be learning from the likes of you!

Gooser


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

fishn said:


> Guys and gals, I have never even seen a started test yet, but hope to get into this fun stuff one of these days, Good Lord willing. So I am reading to learn, not reading to make my judgement....anyway, let's say down the road my dog and I do this exact same thing. She drops the 2nd bird before delivery to hand. Can I tell her to "fetch" the second bird without her failing?
> 
> Reason I ask, I've read someplace before where it says you can't talk to the dog at the line, other than to send her or him. Not sure if that was HRC or AKC. But other than releasing the dog and casting/stopping by whistle, what can you verbally say to your dog from the line? "Here", "fetch", "over" ? Is there a place to read specific details that tell you exactly what you can and cannot do?
> 
> ...


In the HRC you can talk to your dog. In AKC I think you can talk to your dog after your dog is released by the judges. Please verify the AKC stuff I told you.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

fishn said:


> Guys and gals, I have never even seen a started test yet, but hope to get into this fun stuff one of these days, Good Lord willing. So I am reading to learn, not reading to make my judgement....anyway, let's say down the road my dog and I do this exact same thing. She drops the 2nd bird before delivery to hand. Can I tell her to "fetch" the second bird without her failing?
> 
> Reason I ask, I've read someplace before where it says you can't talk to the dog at the line, other than to send her or him. Not sure if that was HRC or AKC. But other than releasing the dog and casting/stopping by whistle, what can you verbally say to your dog from the line? "Here", "fetch", "over" ? Is there a place to read specific details that tell you exactly what you can and cannot do?
> 
> ...


Yes, you can talk to your dog at anytime and say anything as long it is not real harsh. No double secret magic words in HRC. 

In this scenario, if it should happen to you, command the dog to fetch the bird. Do just about anything short of touching the dog or the bird, but pick the bird up (not you the dog).

Mostly relax and have fun. Had there been time In this scenario I would have reminded him to pick the bird up. It just all happened too fast to stop.


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## Wingshotgod (Apr 23, 2010)

The dog did not switch, however it failed due to the fact it did not retrieve the bird to hand. See Section IV below.
Retreiving to hand after the fact does not count since he/she was sent for another bird. If that was the case. The dog could spit all the birds on a pile and you could have them pick them all up at the end.



SEASONED HUNT TESTS
(*Revised January 1, 2009)


*TEST RULES

I. The maximum land test distance will not exceed one hundred (100) yards, but may be shorter. The max- imum water test distance will not exceed seventy-five (75) yards, but may be shorter. The land blind retrieve maximum test distance will not exceed sixty (60) yards, but may be shorter. The water blind retrieve maximum test distance will not exceed sixty (60) yards, but may be shorter.

II. During all five hunting tests, hand signals, or voice or whistle commands may be used by the Handler to encourage the Seasoned Hunting Retriever.

III. The Seasoned Hunting Retriever is required to be steady at the retrieving line. At the retrieving line the hunting retriever may be touched to steady, but when the Handler signals “ready” the hunting retriever should not be touched again.

If a Seasoned Hunting Retriever leaves the retrieving line before being signaled to do so, it must be stopped and return to heel. Failure to stop and return to heel upon command will be considered an uncontrolled break. Excessive or consistent creeping by a Seasoned Hunting Retriever will be treated as a controlled break and the retriever must be brought to heel on the Judge’s command. The judges will give a lower score to the Seasoned Hunting Retriever for a controlled break. During hunting tests, the Seasoned Hunting Retriever may be placed a reasonable distance from the Handler at the retrieving line.

IV. The bird must be delivered to hand.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

fishn said:


> Guys and gals, I have never even seen a started test yet, but hope to get into this fun stuff one of these days, Good Lord willing. So I am reading to learn, not reading to make my judgement....anyway, let's say down the road my dog and I do this exact same thing. She drops the 2nd bird before delivery to hand. Can I tell her to "fetch" the second bird without her failing?
> 
> Reason I ask, I've read someplace before where it says you can't talk to the dog at the line, other than to send her or him. Not sure if that was HRC or AKC. But other than releasing the dog and casting/stopping by whistle, what can you verbally say to your dog from the line? "Here", "fetch", "over" ? Is there a place to read specific details that tell you exactly what you can and cannot do?
> 
> ...


Yes you can tell your dog whatever you like at the line in HRC. You can talk quietly to your dog while the marks are being thrown also in HRC
The was failed for not completing the retrieve, by delivering to hand, before being sent to make another retrieve.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

To the people who think the dog in question delivered to hand just not in order, let me pose this; Dog returns from go bird, spits out, handler sends for memory dog returns spits out, handler send for deversion returns delivers to hand. No handler and dog pick up one of spit out birds then the other. Still acceptable?


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

I do not run HRC, I am new to this game, I do run AKC hunt tests, but have only had one dog and we have completed SH, and am working towards MH this fall. I also am not a judge in AMC, or HRC.

Now with all of that said, I am not sure if I am reading the correct rules for an HRC test, but the only thing I can see in the HRC rules is that the bird must be delivered to hand.

It does not say upon return of retrieve, it does not say before being sent for another bird. JUST. Bird must be delivered to hand.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Rules/HRRunniSeasonedHuntTests

I do not know if the above link is a condensed version or the rules or not, as I am unable to bring up the rulebook from the HRC website (which directs to UKC website).


Based on my reading of the rules from the link above, it says deliver to hand (but not when it needs to be delivered). As such, I would see this as a pass, since he returned with the diversion, delivered that to hand, then picked up memory bird and delivered to hand.



Now by comparison, when I read the AKC rules (I know we are not talking AKC), it says the following:

"Upon returning to the line, a dog shall deliver the bird promptly and gingerly to its handler"

Based on this quote from the AKC rulebook, I would say it is a fail, because it says upon returning to line, the dog shall deliver to handler.

Just my two cents......from a person who has been in the game less than 2 years, handled a dog to SH title on my own training, and is not a judge in any venue (but will be taking judges seminar in 2 weeks).


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

MikeBoley said:


> To the people who think the dog in question delivered to hand just not in order, let me pose this; Dog returns from go bird, spits out, handler sends for memory dog returns spits out, handler send for deversion returns delivers to hand. No handler and dog pick up one of spit out birds then the other. Still acceptable?


Yes, based on the fact the rules only state "deliver to hand", without any additional qualification. 

In this case, I think it comes to all of us reading our own interpretation into the rules. The only qualification is deliver to hand. Not deliver to hand in the order they are picked up.

(should it be in order that they are picked up....yes....however that is not what the rules say.)


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Ken Newcomb said:


> This is being discussed on the HRC Field Rep forum. I have been told I was wrong. I am interested to see what others think.


OK, now that you've told us how you judged it (and I agree with your decision and reasoning for whatever that is worth), what do you mean you've been told you were wrong? By the field rep? By some other kind of authority? Or just people with an opinion?


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> OK, now that you've told us how you judged it (and I agree with your decision and reasoning for whatever that is worth), what do you mean you've been told you were wrong? By the field rep? By some other kind of authority? Or just people with an opinion?


I was simply told that 6 to 8 FRs commented to my FR that it was the wrong call. However, Janet Kimbrough is an HRC FR that I highly respect and she commented on this thread that the call was correct. I would like to hear from some of those that think it was the wrong call. 

Nothing needs to be a secret. We can't learn without open discussion.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

MikeBoley said:


> To the people who think the dog in question delivered to hand just not in order, let me pose this; Dog returns from go bird, spits out, handler sends for memory dog returns spits out, handler send for deversion returns delivers to hand. No handler and dog pick up one of spit out birds then the other. Still acceptable?


NO, Failed to deliver to hand. Lack of Control on Delivery


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> I was simply told that 6 to 8 FRs commented to my FR that it was the wrong call. However, Janet Kimbrough is an HRC FR that I highly respect and she commented on this thread that the call was correct. I would like to hear from some of those that think it was the wrong call.
> 
> Nothing needs to be a secret. We can't learn without open discussion.


WOW!!!! I would like to hear their reasoning


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

MikeBoley said:


> To the people who think the dog in question delivered to hand just not in order, let me pose this; Dog returns from go bird, spits out, handler sends for memory dog returns spits out, handler send for deversion returns delivers to hand. No handler and dog pick up one of spit out birds then the other. Still acceptable?


 
Per the Rule book *DELIVERY*

"A retriever should promptly return to the handler (handler area in started) with the bird and deliver it in such a manner as to *not* *risk losing it if it were a cripple* or damaging the meat."


Seems to me if the dog dropped (spit out) a possible cripple and took off for another bird,, well it didnt complete the retrieve as decribed by rule. The dog didnt deliver to hand,,,,, that possible cripple,,,, that coulda got away!! 

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> *I was simply told that 6 to 8 FRs commented to my FR that it was the wrong call.* However, Janet Kimbrough is an HRC FR that I highly respect and she commented on this thread that the call was correct. I would like to hear from some of those that think it was the wrong call.
> 
> Nothing needs to be a secret. We can't learn without open discussion.


 
THIS just scares Gooser to death!!

Gooser


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If the dog came to heel and dropped the bird, it clearly delivered the bird....just didn't do it correctly. If the dog had dropped the bird out in the field and picked up the other bird, it would have been a switch....but the dog brought the bird in, heeled, and spit the bird on the ground. To me, that constitutes delivery....just poorly executed.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Per the Rule book *DELIVERY*
> 
> A retriever should promptly return to the handler (handler area in started) with the bird and deliver it in such a manner as to *not* *risk losing it if it were a cripple* or damaging the meat.
> 
> ...


Wow Gooser, we have had our differences of opinion in the past but I gotta say, I think you are on today. I don't care what your wife says.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> You feel ok???:razz:
> 
> Gooser


Even Gooser calls one right every now and then! ;-)


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Fail for lack of delivery to hand.

Honestly, do the members of HRC read their own rulebook? 
Stuff like this is why I don't run HRC anymore (I still judge every once in awhile)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I just made an appointment with the doctor!!

Sumpins wrong!!

Seriously wrong!!

Gooser


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

KNorman said:


> Fail for lack of delivery to hand.
> 
> Honestly, do the members of HRC read their own rulebook?
> Stuff like this is why I don't run HRC anymore (I still judge every once in awhile)


on a percentage basis, probably about the same as AKC handlers reading their rule book.....

sad, but true....-Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

seriously though..
I think this is SIMPLE stuff!

The rule book is VERY CLEAR!!!!! on this issue.

Its not hard to justify BY RULE,,, the decision Ken made.

Gooser


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I have not read the comments from the FR's so this is just me.
These are quotes from the rulebook currently posted on the HRC web site.



Judges will look for style and natural ability and evidence that the Seasoned Hunting Retriever exhibits a reasonable degree of control.

The bird must be delivered to hand.

A diversionary bird can be thrown after the walkup, blind, or last retrieve of a double mark. If a Seasoned Hunting Retriever switches to the diversionary bird, it will not fail but will be scored lower by the Judge. The hunting retriever shall retrieve the diversionary bird.

The standards of control and performance on blinds for Seasoned dogs are less than those for Finished or Grand.





I know and have judged with a few who have replied and I respect their opinions even though we may disagree,
I would have passed the dog IF all the following were good: the walk up was good, the line manners were good and the blinds were clean. Reason being that all of the above, including a switch, go to the general area of control, including delivery to hand, and if only one of these areas was lacking, then as a judge, I see it as a pass. As a pretty experienced handler who has ran and passed many Seasoned tests, I would see it personally as a failure. But that is experience talking.
The rules do not say WHEN the delivery to hand is to be made, although it is generally understood that it should be immediate. Also has the phrase ”reasonable level of control”. If the dog retrieved the diversion and delivered it to hand, and then picked up the mark and delivered it to hand on command, that to me shows IN SEASONED, a reasonable level of control for that level being tested. In Finished or Grand, you will be out.
I could not find it but either in the rule book, or the current Judge/ Handler seminar book, I believe that there is a statement that we are not necessarily judging the handlers expertise, and I see this as a DAH error. 
I recently judged a Finished test where the handler thought his dog was on the pin on one of the blinds. He was 30 yards short. Casted the dog right and left several times. Dog took every cast and eventually the handler realized he was short, casted the dog back and got the bird. All the other work was good so he got a pass. There were no refusals and the dog did as the handler asked even thought the handler was lacking expertise or depth perception. My co judge agreed. 
If I were judging the Seasoned test, and could discern that it was a very new or experienced handler, I would comment on the delivery to hand issue and the diversion and tell him to be sure in the future to not give the judges any thing to judge, which is what he did. This would be “in the spirit of HRC”.
In the mid level testing, which are generally agreed to be the hardest to fairly judge, there is a tremendous amount of judges discretion needed. This is why we need to have great and experienced judges in the mid levels, to get it right.
JMHO, right or wrong, but he passed that day on my sheet.
MP


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## clipper (May 11, 2003)

It is a fail because this judge on this day decided it was a fail and had a reasonable explnation for his decision. 
Another day and another judge?? who knows. Pretty good case can be made with either decision with the rule that a switch is not an autofail.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> If the dog came to heel and dropped the bird, it clearly delivered the bird....just didn't do it correctly. If the dog had dropped the bird out in the field and picked up the other bird, it would have been a switch....but the dog brought the bird in, heeled, and spit the bird on the ground. To me, that constitutes delivery....just poorly executed.


No it is not a delivery to hand!!! The dog should have been told to fetch it up. Then get the diversion bird?? You can't just bring the birds in and have the dog drop them at the will of the dog and carry on the test. Deliver to hand. Did he come back in after getting the diversion bird delivered to hand and look to pick up the bird he dropped?? The judges decision was correct!!
I think we are stretching here. I am surprised some FR interpreted this mistake otherwise. I thought judges decisions were final. They do a great job!!!!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Ken Newcomb said:


> I was simply told that 6 to 8 FRs commented to my FR that it was the wrong call. However, Janet Kimbrough is an HRC FR that I highly respect and she commented on this thread that the call was correct. I would like to hear from some of those that think it was the wrong call.
> 
> Nothing needs to be a secret. We can't learn without open discussion.


Once again, I applaud you for opening up this discussion even though you knew that some would say you got it wrong. I think you got it right. I can see it the other way too, but as a judge you don't have the luxury of sitting on the fence.

Would you do anything differently if you had it to do over? Would you not tell him he failed and consult with the field rep before making the decision? The only thing I could possibly critique about it is that you could have waited and gave it more thought/discussion, but I'm really not sure you (or I) would have arrived at a different decision. Your decision was logical to me. If I was the handler, after I handed you the diversion and realized the memory bird was still on the ground at my feet I would have been thinking "crap, I just failed my dog by failing to have him pick up the memory bird he dropped at my feet before sending him for the diversion - what was I thinking?"

If definitely falls into the category of DAH more than dog error although if the dog delivered to hand as he should have his handler wouldn't have been put in the position of screwing it up. Are all DAH's to be forgiven and awarded with a ribbon? I think I've been given some Grace on a DAH before but I don't think all DAH screw ups are created equal either.

Either way, it is a good discussion I think.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

All I can hope for is that my co-judge and I come up with the same decision. It all depends on how you interpret the rules. It defines a switch as ‘when a dog dropping one bird and picking up the other’. However, the dog did not do this. The dog dropped the bird at the line, the handler then proceeded to send the dog to the diversion. Where was the intent of the dog to switch? This is a tough call.


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## hfsDogs (May 21, 2011)

I know I'm releativly new to this whole retriever training thing, and don't know much about HT, other than what I've read on ACK, and HRC rules books online. But to me this seems like the 2nd bird was failed to be delieverd to hand. He got the dog back to heel, and sent for the deversion. A switch is the dog doesn't come back to heel just spits the 2nd bird out and goes to the 2nd one. And if HRC rules say failure to deliever to hand results in failure of the the test than that how this should be judged.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

KNorman said:


> Fail for lack of delivery to hand.
> 
> Honestly, do the members of HRC read their own rulebook?
> Stuff like this is why I don't run HRC anymore (I still judge every once in awhile)


Read it all the time. That's why most of the HRC judges are in agreement on this.


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

I just can't keep my mouth shut or fingers off the key board on this one ... let me Qualify my comment with "have to see it to Judge it" b ut based on what I've read in this thread ... I write SHE[Stupid Handler Error] next to the memory bird ,,, note in comments DND [DID NOT DELIVER]; after thanking Team for running the Test confer with my Co Judge and argue for failure for not delivering to Hand ... I believe this is the standard and it is supported by rule ... and guidance ... if we can have pups spitting birds and handlers sending for the next mark or diversion and then deliver previously retrieved birds we have done a disservice to the game ... deliver is a continuation of the retrieve ... I have always thought of the ok to switch provision to mean if a dog drops their bird on the way in picks up another then completes and returns to heel and delivers the bird to hand ... having seen many diversions poorly thrown and bounced of the pups nose ... kinda why some judges mark their diversion bird ... Just my 2 cents ...


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Another thing just came to mind. 
If the dog dropped the memory bird at 15 yards, went to the diversion and retrieved it, then was sent for the previously dropped memory bird which was 15 yards away, we all seem to be pretty much in agreement that it is simply a switch and if all of the rest of the test is done to standard, it is a pass.
The dog dropped the bird at the handlers feet, then proceeded to switch.
Where do we draw the line on the distance from the handler that constitutes a switch or simply a failure to deliver? 
In both instances, there is a clear failure to deliver which results in a switch. The distance from the handler on the drop, and then the innterpretation of whether it was a failure to deliver or a switch is the debate.
Splitting hairs regards,
MP


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> Another thing just came to mind.
> If the dog dropped the memory bird at 15 yards, went to the diversion and retrieved it, then was sent for the previously dropped memory bird which was 15 yards away, we all seem to be pretty much in agreement that it is simply a switch and if all of the rest of the test is done to standard, it is a pass.
> The dog dropped the bird at the handlers feet, then proceeded to switch.
> Where do we draw the line on the distance from the handler that constitutes a switch or simply a failure to deliver?
> ...


Mike;

I don't think you really have to split hairs on this one. The action of returning to the handler and being sent is the dividing line. The dog didn't switch, he simply did not complete the retrieve before being sent for a different bird. In what HRC calls a switch some sort of retrieve of was completed, albeit with the wrong bird but it was completed. IMO the scenario I ran into the retrieve was not completed with any bird before being sent to retrieve a different bird.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

That is what not happend though Mike. If the dog came back to the line spit the bird out and ran back to the diversion picked it up I am ok. However, the dog came back to the line, re-heeled, spit the bird out, and the handler directed the dog to retreive the diversion. The dog did not switch. Splitting hairs no doubt...


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Mike Perry said:


> I have not read the comments from the FR's so this is just me.
> These are quotes from the rulebook currently posted on the HRC web site.
> 
> 
> ...


I agree !! A judge needs to look at the big picture, Did the dog show you he could do the Season level work ? And his only mistake was to spit a bird and complete the test and then handed the spat bird to the handler. 
I agree with Mike this dog isn't running a Finished or Grand series, Id look at this as the handler ran out of experience , and call it to his attention and pass the dog if the dog was solid.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

quote;

Did the dog show you he could do the Season level work ?

Clearly it didnt by rule, just as a started dog fails if it doesnt retrieve to the handlers *area *and do it WITHOUT a bunch of repeated commands , begging , pleading, and ignoring the handler. Thats the RULES!!!

Ken said if he had been allowed the time,, he would have told the handler to pick up the dropped bird at the line before the dog was sent for the diversion. 
Things happen so fast. He didnt have time to do it,, I will assure you if he had the time,, he would have done everything in his power to remind the handler to pick up the bird on the ground. Once its happend its done.

Things happen at tests that the handler has to take resposibility for. A bird dropped on the ground by a dog,is a huge red flag for anybody that runs or trains dogs. Seasoned level included. JMHDAO!! (please note)

Ken is NOT a judge that wants to fail anybody or nit pick, I have run under him,, and quite frankly, he has had ample opportunity to drop me things I wouldnt have passed, but he didnt.

If that was my dog I would accept what happened (if he understands the rules) not worry about playing games with interpretation,, or what other Judges would have done,, but rather listen to what this judge you just ran under told you happened.

The handler has things to work on..

Just as we ALLLLL do.

Gooser


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> Mike;
> 
> I don't think you really have to split hairs on this one. The action of returning to the handler and being sent is the dividing line. The dog didn't switch, he simply did not complete the retrieve before being sent for a different bird. In what HRC calls a switch some sort of retrieve of was completed, albeit with the wrong bird but it was completed. IMO the scenario I ran into the retrieve was not completed with any bird before being sent to retrieve a different bird.


A great discussion with civility thru several pages. And almost all contributors have justification for their stance. What a refreshing change of pace!!
Don't some handlers make it interesting for us as judges sometimes?
Marginal work on a blind, then split hairs and use semantics for an argument for a pass when they really know it was not, allowing a dog to switch or non deliver, letting a dog break on the judge release command etc etc etc.
Big bucks regards
MP


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

I didn't know you could pass a finished test with a switch. 

Is that also true at the grand?

Tail wagging regards...


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

Im really new to all this and read through most of it. In the end, how much should a judge also have to coach the handler?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

RF2 said:


> I didn't know you could pass a finished test with a switch.
> 
> Is that also true at the grand?
> 
> Tail wagging regards...


11 pages and you didn't catch that this was a Seasoned test?


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> A great discussion with civility thru several pages. And almost all contributors have justification for their stance. What a refreshing change of pace!!
> Don't some handlers make it interesting for us as judges sometimes?
> Marginal work on a blind, then split hairs and use semantics for an argument for a pass when they really know it was not, allowing a dog to switch or non deliver, letting a dog break on the judge release command etc etc etc.
> Big bucks regards
> MP


I agree 100% Mike. If they would all go this well learn would be a lot of productive learning going on.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> quote;
> 
> Did the dog show you he could do the Season level work ?
> 
> ...




Hopefully that is true with most judges Gooser. I know when I am judging I am wanting all the dogs to do good work and pass. I have reminded a many of handlers to check their gun before leaving the line, when in fact the breach was closed or safety was off. I am not saying I can catch all, but I try. It is still the handlers responsibility. The thing about Season is that the Handler has to do so many more things than they ever had to do in running Started. Walkups, diversions, shooting the gun, doubles, and everything moves faster it seems. Their nervous, excited, etc.. and things happen. I do my best to make it fun and relaxing. There has many a times where the handler starts to pick the bird off the ground after his dog drops it and needs to be reminded not to and get the dog to fetch it.  I love making the big bucks....


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Gooser and Janet spoke the truth. THE DOG FAILED TO DELIVER TO HAND on the second bird he brought back to the line. Read the rule book.

SEASONED - TEST RULES -Page 43, IV - "THE BIRD MUST BE DELIVERED TO HAND"

MUST means MUST, not can, should or maybe. Grammar is still important

U dun gud Ken - I give you 100 on this test.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"letting a dog break on the judge release command etc etc etc"

But it wasn't a break.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

It is not a switch, the dog retrieved the bird "to the handler". They just didn't execute the final part of that which was for the dog to deliver the bird to the handler's hand (or the handler grabbing the bird from the dog's mouth). 

The bird is to be delivered to hand as a continuation of the mark and retrieve for that bird. 

Drops while enroute back are noted as markdowns and "excessive" coaxing by handler (to deliver to hand) is also a markdown. 

Whether the whole thing was "a bang-bang moment" is immaterial. The team failed to execute a section of the test per the rules. 

Fail 'em


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## Tstreg (Dec 28, 2005)

I was there, saw the whole thing. I'm new to HRC and would like to say it was handled GREAT and IMHO correctly. Nice test, nice judges, I'll be back. I think a new nervous handler made a honest mistake. I have made many that cost the team a ribbon and will probably make many more. I'm not a HRC judge but a full point NAHRA judge. I know good judging when I see it, and I saw it. My 2 cents


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

firehouselabs said:


> 11 pages and you didn't catch that this was a Seasoned test?


Who has time to read all the gdg around here? And does it matter whether it's seasoned or finished? :razz:


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

RF2 said:


> Who has time to read all the gdg around here? And does it matter whether it's seasoned or finished? :razz:


You don't need to read all the gdg. It states that it is Seasoned in the title because it does make a difference.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

I was post #2 and said "FAIL"
But what I really would like to see is HRC take the diversion out of Seasoned if switching is not a failure and just a mark down. What is the point of the diversion if you allow the dog to drop one bird to run to the diversion?? It would solve the delimma of how close to the handler does a dog get before it is failure to deliver vs a switch. 

off my soap box now


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

_It would solve the delimma of how close to the handler does a dog get before it is failure to deliver vs a switch. _

Not really. The scenario as initially described indicated that the dog was at heel with the handler but just spit out the bird and then was sent to the diversion and picked it up. This is not a switch.

Common sense about being "close to a handler" rules here. How close does a dog need to be to the handler in order for the team to make an exchange (i.e., bird to hand)? Is 10 feet apart close enough? Maybe if your Manute Bol, but if you're the average American/Canadian male or female I'm thinking 3-5 feet max. 

If one wants a definition of "close enough" or "close to the handler", it's easily doable. Then it's a matter of a judge judging it correctly. ;-) It was correctly judged, and that team failed that part of the test.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

the dog failed to deliver to hand ,,,,,,,,,,,FAIL by the rules.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Kevinismybrother said:


> I was post #2 and said "FAIL"
> But what I really would like to see is HRC take the diversion out of Seasoned if switching is not a failure and just a mark down. What is the point of the diversion if you allow the dog to drop one bird to run to the diversion?? It would solve the delimma of how close to the handler does a dog get before it is failure to deliver vs a switch.
> 
> off my soap box now


What's the delimma? There is no required distance the dog has to be to the handler, as long as the bird is delivered to "HAND". There was no switch in this senerio. A swith in HRC is where a dog drops one bird and then picks up another bird "ON HIS OWN". In this case the dog had help from the handler at the Point the handler "SENT" the dog to m


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

From several (non judge) eye witnesses: Dog came to the line under control, exhibited good line manners, marked reasonably accurately (I get the impression this dog was a high roller) Dog was lined up for the diversion by the handler (very short) when the dog dropped the bird and was sent by the handler. Dog delivered the diversion bird, was commanded to fetch the dropped bird and delivered that bird to hand.

I respect Ken and his co judge's opinion. I disagree from the information, as I have it, to fail the dog. Something along the lines of "letter of the law vs spirit of the law"

Is a dropped bird the equivalent of a break? a hardmouthed bird? Must be if it is an immediate fail. This dog and handler made a mistake, subsequently corrected. The dog did not have the opportuntiy to demonstrate if this dropped bird was a consistent fault or a momentary mistake that had no bearing on the body of the test nor its suitability as a hunting companion. A dog that consistently fails to deliver, reluctantly delivers to hand should be failed. Failure to deliver is a control issue. As a judge I'm supposed to look for a reasonable degree of control, not perfection.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

> It would solve the delimma of how close to the handler does a dog get before it is failure to deliver vs a switch.
> 
> Not really. The scenario as initially described indicated that the dog was at heel with the handler but just spit out the bird and then was sent to the diversion and picked it up. This is not a switch.





> What's the delimma? There is no required distance the dog has to be to the handler, as long as the bird is delivered to "HAND". There was no switch in this senerio. A swith in HRC is where a dog drops one bird and then picks up another bird "ON HIS OWN". In this case the dog had help from the handler at the Point the handler "SENT" the dog to m


We are in violent agreement that the dog/handler failed. 
You Missed my point - I'll try again 


*Don't have the diversion for Seasoned *- then there is nothing to judge. The diversion adds nothing to the test/criteria for a pass since the dog can switch and still pass. 

What is the point of the diversion??


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

The diversion allows the judges to look at the dog's control. Control is not evaluated on one aspect of the test, but tends to be an overall impression. As such it's subjective. Each element of a test does not need to be pass/fail in order to form an opinion of a given dog. Actually I can think of one - gun safety, no marginal box on that count.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

After reading the first post I came to the conclusion



*DOG FAILED *


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Okay, have you ever shot a dove and put it in your game bag and had it revive and flutter around? In your game bag it is still your bird but dropped on the dround and maybe flying away doesn't put meat on the table. Why is the rule that the dog must deliver to hand? - that's right, if it were to revive while dropped on the ground and flies away you have lost a wounded bird. Isn't part of our having a dog retrieve our game to conserve game? Losing a bird like that is not being conservative. That is the reason for that rule. 

If not applicable then why do we force fetch our dogs. COMMON SENSE


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

wsumner said:


> You don't need to read all the gdg. It states that it is Seasoned in the title because it does make a difference.


Who reads thread titles? I opened a Wildrose thread and all I saw was a bunch of beaver pics.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

red devil said:


> From several (non judge) eye witnesses: Dog came to the line under control, exhibited good line manners, marked reasonably accurately (I get the impression this dog was a high roller) Dog was lined up for the diversion by the handler (very short) when the dog dropped the bird and was sent by the handler. Dog delivered the diversion bird, was commanded to fetch the dropped bird and delivered that bird to hand.
> 
> I respect Ken and his co judge's opinion. I disagree from the information, as I have it, to fail the dog. Something along the lines of "letter of the law vs spirit of the law"
> 
> Is a dropped bird the equivalent of a break? a hardmouthed bird? Must be if it is an immediate fail. This dog and handler made a mistake, subsequently corrected. The dog did not have the opportuntiy to demonstrate if this dropped bird was a consistent fault or a momentary mistake that had no bearing on the body of the test nor its suitability as a hunting companion. A dog that consistently fails to deliver, reluctantly delivers to hand should be failed. Failure to deliver is a control issue. As a judge I'm supposed to look for a reasonable degree of control, not perfection.




So what you are saying is since the handler made the mistake and this is a team effort the judge should have passed the dog. So if my dog comes back to the line, spits the bird out and "I" pick the bird up, and that is still a handler mistake, but I should 'Pass' because that was my fault and not the dogs, since I could have said Fitto fetch and now he failed to deliver to hand? As you stated "The dog did not have the opportunity to demostrate if this dropped bird was a consistent fault or a momentary mistake that had no bearing on the body of the test nor its suitability as a hunting companion". So based on that comment you are saying I should Pass?


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

I'll start my comment by saying I don't run HRC, so take my comment for what its worth.

In my view, the dog did not deliver to hand. It brought it back and dropped it at the feet of the handler, left the line and brought back another bird. Whether the dog picked up the bird at that point and delivered it is irrelevant in my view. A bird dropped without the handler picking it up is not delivered to hand.

So, if it's important to deliver to hand in HRC Seasoned, then the dog (actually handler, in this case) failed.

:2c:


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

the dog passed it did not switch i would mark it down for delivery and if it happened again it fails for delivery. that is only if the handeler does not pick up the bird


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

I have had the pleasure and priviledge to run my dogs under the judgement of Red Devil. Based on this thread, I would consider myself fortunate to be judged by the OP, Ken Newcomb. Despite the differing assessment of this case study, the reasoning and conclusions made by both of these gentlemen represents high quality judgement to me.

Jim


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## BMay (Mar 3, 2003)

Just wondering....am I reading correctly (from this thread) that in HRC tests you only have to have ONE licensed judge in the mid level tests? The other "co judge" can an apprentice judge and his/hers score(s) count? Does/can this happen in the "finished" tests as well? 
I'm not an HRC handler these days, but did run and HRCH title dogs in the late 80's and early 90's. I never knew, if in fact, it happened that way back in those days. No big deal I guess. I'm not trying to stir any AKC VS HRC VS NAHRA pots with this...it's simply a question about something I wasn't aware of.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

An HRC Apprentice judge is a fully capable judge. We just call them an apprentice so that they judge a couple times under what is known as a AA judge at that level. It helps them get started without throwing them into the deep water alone.

Personally I think the system works very well as long as clubs are recommending judges that are truly capable.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

BMay said:


> Just wondering....am I reading correctly (from this thread) that in HRC tests you only have to have ONE licensed judge in the mid level tests? The other "co judge" can an apprentice judge and his/hers score(s) count? Does/can this happen in the "finished" tests as well?
> I'm not an HRC handler these days, but did run and HRCH title dogs in the late 80's and early 90's. I never knew, if in fact, it happened that way back in those days. No big deal I guess. I'm not trying to stir any AKC VS HRC VS NAHRA pots with this...it's simply a question about something I wasn't aware of.


Every HRC test has to have 2 judges. If one is an apprentice judge, then the other Judge has to be an Apprenticed Approved (AA) Judge. Yes, the apprentice scores count just the same as the AA judge.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

BMay said:


> Just wondering....am I reading correctly (from this thread) that in HRC tests you only have to have ONE licensed judge in the mid level tests? The other "co judge" can an apprentice judge and his/hers score(s) count? Does/can this happen in the "finished" tests as well?
> I'm not an HRC handler these days, but did run and HRCH title dogs in the late 80's and early 90's. I never knew, if in fact, it happened that way back in those days. No big deal I guess. I'm not trying to stir any AKC VS HRC VS NAHRA pots with this...it's simply a question about something I wasn't aware of.


yes, but then you have to understand that an apprentice SEASONED judge is already a licensed STARTED judge who has already run and passed a dog at the seasoned level, has a letter of recomendation from a club, has attended a judges seminar, has passed the judges test and has a gun safety certificate from an approved organization. 

additionally, to become licensed you must apprentice twice at each level. to have an apprentice work with you requires an additional 2 assignments with a licensed co-judge.

when i have an apprentice with me i have them construct the tests and ask them questions involving safety, time management, mechanics, what they think the dogs will do and why, etc. if the test is flawed, in my opinion, i suggest changes and explain why.

judging the dogs work is relatively easy if the set-ups are good. 

no other HT organization requires as much of their judges.-Paul


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## BMay (Mar 3, 2003)

So Ken and Mistyriver...I assume the "apprentice judge" is want you called an AA Started judge, that is moving up the judging chain?


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

That's why they call it "judging." 

IMO - on the information provided by Ken - I would have failed the dog for not delivering the 2nd bird to hand before going after another. Had pup dropped, then picked up that bird, before going after the diversion that would not in and of itself - in my judgement - failed the dog. But if another judge passed the dog I'd have to respect his/her opinion. 

AA judge at all HRC levels, regards.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

BMay said:


> So Ken and Mistyriver...I assume the "apprentice judge" is want you called an AA Started judge, that is moving up the judging chain?


An Apprentice judge at Seasoned WOULD be a judge moving up the judging levels. An Apprentice Approved (AA) judge is a judge that has completed his apprenticeship requirements and judged at least 2 more times as a licensed judge at THAT level. A double A judge has been approved to apprentice other judges at that level. A judge does NOT have to be AA before moving up to the next level to judge, but they do have to be a licensed judge at the previous level. I.E. a judge must go - Started, then Seasoned, then Finished.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

BMay said:


> So Ken and Mistyriver...I assume the "apprentice judge" is want you called an AA Started judge, that is moving up the judging chain?


B May,

In HRC, an Apprentice judge can only be paired with a "AA" Licensed Judge and actively participates in all aspects of the test from set up to assessing the dogs runs. The "AA" stands for Apprentice Approved Licensed judge.

As has been stated they are Licensed in the level(s) below the level they are apprenticing and all HRC judges must start at Started and work they way up. It has always been that way.

Janet


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

BMay said:


> So Ken and Mistyriver...I assume the "apprentice judge" is want you called an AA Started judge, that is moving up the judging chain?


An AA Started Judge may have an apprentice judge with him in Started. You don't have to move up to other levels if you do not want to(as long as you qualify to move up) See Pauls comments. You have to run and Pass a dog at each level even before being considered. I am AA in Started and Seasoned, and have ran and passed my dogs in many finished tests, however I have not really considered Judging Finished. I do enjoy Judging Season, even though in can sometimes be the most difficult and you get lots of exercise.  Finished dogs tend to put themselves out unless the handlers decide to pick them up.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

I had a lengthy discussion with another HRC judge that I respect alot yesterday evening. He brought an interesting perspective to this situation.

In Seasoned, a dog can drop the marked retrieve in the field, switch to the diversion, bring it to the handler and go back out and pick up the marked retrieve and receive a mark down in control because in Seasoned a dog may not be failed for a switch.

Now this judge agrees that this, as described is not a switch, BUT feels that just because that bird was dropped at the line and the dog was sent for the diversion and then delivered the diversion bird and then the marked to retrieve to hand, the penalty should not be GREATER than if the dog had truly switched. His justification for this is that the only difference is the location difference of the dropped bird.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

My only counter thought to that perspective would be that there is more of a difference then just distance. There was an act of completing a retrieve (or not) along with the act of being sent to do something else. 

Just a thought

Tell Jimmy thanks for his input.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> I had a lengthy discussion with another HRC judge that I respect alot yesterday evening. He brought an interesting perspective to this situation.
> 
> In Seasoned, a dog can drop the marked retrieve in the field, switch to the diversion, bring it to the handler and go back out and pick up the marked retrieve and receive a mark down in control because in Seasoned a dog may not be failed for a switch.
> 
> Now this judge agrees that this, as described is not a switch, BUT feels that just because that bird was dropped at the line and the dog was sent for the diversion and then delivered the diversion bird and then the marked to retrieve to hand, the penalty should not be GREATER than if the dog had truly switched. His justification for this is that the only difference is the location difference of the dropped bird.


So Janet, does that mean Gooser retracts his marriage proposal? 

This is a truly very gray area and can be interpreted either way. I think with out really being there, judging the dog in every aspect, see what the handler and dog did, it would be hard to come to a conclusion on this forum. I would concur with my co judge and hopefully we would come to the same conclusion. However, I do enjoy discussions like this in a civil manner.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> I had a lengthy discussion with another HRC judge that I respect alot yesterday evening. He brought an interesting perspective to this situation.
> 
> In Seasoned, a dog can drop the marked retrieve in the field, switch to the diversion, bring it to the handler and go back out and pick up the marked retrieve and receive a mark down in control because in Seasoned a dog may not be failed for a switch.
> 
> Now this judge agrees that this, as described is not a switch, BUT feels that just because that bird was dropped at the line and the dog was sent for the diversion and then delivered the diversion bird and then the marked to retrieve to hand, the penalty should not be GREATER than if the dog had truly switched. His justification for this is that the only difference is the location difference of the dropped bird.


Janet, this was exactly my point in post 95 on page 10. 
Distance was the only factor.
Kicking a dead horse regards,
MP


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> I had a lengthy discussion with another HRC judge that I respect alot yesterday evening. He brought an interesting perspective to this situation.
> 
> In Seasoned, a dog can drop the marked retrieve in the field, switch to the diversion, bring it to the handler and go back out and pick up the marked retrieve and receive a mark down in control because in Seasoned a dog may not be failed for a switch.
> 
> Now this judge agrees that this, as described is not a switch, BUT feels that just because that bird was dropped at the line and the dog was sent for the diversion and then delivered the diversion bird and then the marked to retrieve to hand, the penalty should not be GREATER than if the dog had truly switched. His justification for this is that the only difference is the location difference of the dropped bird.


Distance from the handler does not matter. The dog dropped the bird by the handler, the handler failed to have his dog pick up the bird and deliver to hand, as per the rules, before sending the dog to make the retrieve on the diversion. 

Would the same ruling be applied if the dog did the same thing on the go bird instead of the diversion?


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Bill Davis said:


> , as per the rules, before sending the dog to make the retrieve on the diversion.


Except no where in the rules of HRC for Seasoned does it say that the the bird must be delivered to hand before sending...........


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Bill Davis said:


> Distance from the handler does not matter. The dog dropped the bird by the handler, the handler failed to have his dog pick up the bird and deliver to hand, as per the rules, before sending the dog to make the retrieve on the diversion.
> 
> Would the same ruling be applied if the dog did the same thing on the go bird instead of the diversion?


by extension, what if the dog returns to the handler, drops the go bird, handler sends the dog for the memory bird. dog returns to the handler with the memory bird and drops it. the handler sends the dog for the diversion. dog returns with the diversion bird and retrieves to hand the 2 birds lying on the ground.

WHAT IF????????

this is nothing less than sloppy work by the dog and horrendously poor handling by the handler. not acceptable. not even for 1 bird.-Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Zman1001 said:


> Except no where in the rules of HRC for Seasoned does it say that the the bird must be delivered to hand before sending...........


you have no idea how much i hope you are not a judge......-Paul


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Zman1001 said:


> Except no where in the rules of HRC for Seasoned does it say that the the bird must be delivered to hand before sending...........


It doesn't say that in Finished either or at the Grand level (In fact it does not say in the rules for the Grand that the bird has to be delievered to hand) hummmmmmmmmmmm.... You Finish one retrieve before starting the others. You don't do part of it now and the other part later........ Pretty Simple


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Zman1001 said:


> Except no where in the rules of HRC for Seasoned does it say that the the bird must be delivered to hand before sending...........


This is actually what I love about HRC. We do not feel the need to draw up a rule for every possible scenario. We try to train our judges to be thinkers.

Sometimes making on your feet decisions works out right sometiimes they don't.

I would like to thank everyone for keeping this a civil learning experience.


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

paul young said:


> you have no idea how much i hope you are not a judge......-Paul


WOW!!!!!!!! this is why threads turn to crap. everyone is/should be entitled to their opinion withoiut crappy statements such as this


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## BMay (Mar 3, 2003)

Thanks to all that tried to explain the protocal of HRC judging. I think I understand it, but I suppose I would grasp it more IF I were actually running HRC events. As an AKC judge, it just struck me strange when Ken mentioned that his co judge was an apprentice. I'm sure you can understand this VS 2 judges and an apprentice, whose scoring doesn't apply, in the other venue. Thanks again, Bob


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## Flying Dutchman (May 1, 2009)

Zman1001 said:


> Except no where in the rules of HRC for Seasoned does it say that the the bird must be delivered to hand before sending...........


This is my thought. As we have discussed, each bird must be delivered to hand, but in this scenario, each bird WAS ultimately delivered to hand. Sure, out of order, but the question becomes (and Ken and I discussed this question over on the HRC Forum and I see his opinion as making sense, too) is a retrieve completed by sending the dog on the next retrieve or is it completed by delivering the bird to hand? In Seasoned, I believe the retrieve is completed by delivering to hand. 

In that vein, I believe this dog switched, but I can go along with those of you who say it's not a switch since he was sent. If we go that way and say it's not a switch, we still have a dog that dropped a bird, did some other stuff, then picked up the bird and delivered it. I guess I don't feel that the handler intervening and commanding the dog to do something else is the fatal mistake. In any event, I'm looking at this as a problem with delivery, but can't call it a failure to deliver since the bird was eventually delivered.

For those that suggested that this thinking would allow the dog to bring all three birds back, dump them all in a pile, then deliver them to hand once they're all back, I would argue that now we have problems with delivery on all three birds which the rule book says should be grounds for failure. Cumulative lack of control fails the dog. Lack of control on one bird shouldn't, I don't think. This goes to what Red Devil was saying.

My two cents. As I said, from Ken's perspective, I can see why he made the interpretation he did, I just don't think I would have. If he and I had been judging together that day, all I can guarantee is that we'd have had that dog finish the test and run the afternoon, then talk about it as we had a difference of opinion. Can't say I wouldn't have come around to his way of thinking after discussion, but I can't say I wouldn't have swayed him to my way of thinking.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i call 'em like i see 'em......-Paul HRC judge #6519 "AA" status started, seasoned, finished, upland


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## Kent W (Jun 22, 2009)

BMay said:


> Thanks to all that tried to explain the protocal of HRC judging. I think I understand it, but I suppose I would grasp it more IF I were actually running HRC events. As an AKC judge, it just struck me strange when Ken mentioned that his co judge was an apprentice. I'm sure you can understand this VS 2 judges and an apprentice, whose scoring doesn't apply, in the other venue. Thanks again, Bob


I noticed that as well. Ahhhhhh, those apprenticeship days. I was lucky. The pairs I watched WANTED to know what I thought/scored. But of course those "opinions" had no bearing on the scores that day. On with the show.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Here is the link for the guidlines to becoming an HRC Judge

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Rules/HRJudgeHRCJudgesRequirementsGuidelines


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## BMay (Mar 3, 2003)

Kent W said:


> I noticed that as well. Ahhhhhh, those apprenticeship days. I was lucky. The pairs I watched WANTED to know what I thought/scored. On with the show.


Kent...yes we (myself and cojudge) always look at the apprentice scores and drawings and answer any questions he/she might have. That's the whole idea. When I said their scores didn't apply, it was meant to relate to HRC system of their apprentice scores do apply. Thanks, Bob


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## Kent W (Jun 22, 2009)

BMay said:


> Kent...yes we (myself and cojudge) always look at the apprentice scores and drawings and answer any questions he/she might have. That's the whole idea. When I said their scores didn't apply, it was meant to relate to HRC system of their apprentice scores do apply. Thanks, Bob


Yes Sir. I went back and edited my post after I read it (wrong direction I know) And WROTE what I MEANT. Short Hi-Jack there. On with the commentary.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

paul young said:


> you have no idea how much i hope you are not a judge......-Paul



No, I am not a judge. I stated that in my first post many pages ago.


I am only presenting what I see in writing. Do I think the dog dropping a bird and me sending my dog for another retrieve is acceptable. NO. Do I agree with OP decision in this scenario. YES, because judges decisions are final and I respect his decision, no matter how I may feel about it.


In my first post, i presented differences between same standard for HRC and AKC (yes I know we are not talking AKC), but the rule is the rule. It only says deliver to hand. 

Someone else said thar HRC does not need to write everything out. Fine. If that is the case, then every judge can then part their own personal standard to each rule that exists. I am not sure I like that since we are running against the written standard, not someone's personal standard.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

Zman1001 said:


> No, I am not a judge. I stated that in my first post many pages ago.
> 
> 
> I am only presenting what I see in writing. Do I think the dog dropping a bird and me sending my dog for another retrieve is acceptable. NO. Do I agree with OP decision in this scenario. YES, because judges decisions are final and I respect his decision, no matter how I may feel about it.
> ...



I don't care what venue you run under. The rule book is not going to cover every circumstance that may arise in a hunt test. One reason why you have 2 judges. Thats why you see some judges saying they would pass and others would fail. Once you are in the chair you see things you have never noticed as a spectator. Most of the time as spectators we are shooting the breeze, checking the dogs, etc... When you sit in that chair for 8hrs or more a day and watch each dog as if it was the first dog running you might have a better understanding. We are all only human and can only judge how we all interpret the rules written and attending judging seminar's. I am sure this one will be brought up in seminars to come.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Mistyriver said:


> I don't care what venue you run under. The rule book is not going to cover every circumstance that may arise in a hunt test. One reason why you have 2 judges. Thats why you see some judges saying they would pass and others would fail. Once you are in the chair you see things you have never noticed as a spectator. Most of the time as spectators we are shooting the breeze, checking the dogs, etc... When you sit in that chair for 8hrs or more a day and watch each dog as if it was the first dog running you might have a better understanding. We are all only human and can only judge how we all interpret the rules written and attending judging seminar's. I am sure this one will be brought up in seminars to come.


Bill, I could not agree with you more.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

paul young said:


> i call 'em like i see 'em......-Paul HRC judge #6519 "AA" status started, seasoned, finished, upland


Gotcha beat #6518 also AA all the way .....so that mean the dog passes??? 

Seems I'm in the minority here, but I'm going to re iterate I think it is a control issue and one instance of this in an otherwise solid run is not enough for me to fail a seasoned dog especially if it was unintentional.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> My only counter thought to that perspective would be that there is more of a difference then just distance. There was an act of completing a retrieve (or not) along with the act of being sent to do something else.
> 
> Just a thought
> 
> Tell Jimmy thanks for his input.



Wasn't Jimmy. Just so you know.

Janet


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

If the rules say "must deliver to hand" I don't know how a judge can explain passing a dog that violates a crystal clear rule, because his other work is good or even excellent. He will never do it again I bet. The game was dropped because of a duh moment so he should pass? The judge made the correct decision-it all stopped before the diversion when he didn't say fetch it up and deliver to hand before sending the dog. The rules have to mean something or the title doesn't.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Mistyriver said:


> So Janet, does that mean Gooser retracts his marriage proposal?
> 
> This is a truly very gray area and can be interpreted either way. I think with out really being there, judging the dog in every aspect, see what the handler and dog did, it would be hard to come to a conclusion on this forum. I would concur with my co judge and hopefully we would come to the same conclusion. However, I do enjoy discussions like this in a civil manner.



No because I didn't say I agreed with that take.  I still say the dog did not deliver to hand and I would have failed the dog. It was an interesting perspective for the other side.

I couldn't agree with you more. This discussion has been excellent and has been civil. Everyone haveing the exact same thoughts about everything would be so very boring.

Janet


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Ken as i do not agree with your call on what happened, I can see your side of it,
If it was me running and i did this i would except the fact (If I falied) i was not sharp enough to give you something to judge.. It was handler error and i bet he doesnt do it again......This is a good learning scenerio Thanks Ken


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> Wasn't Jimmy. Just so you know.
> 
> Janet


It was a good guess though.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> ..... The rules have to mean something or the title doesn't.


I would ask to whom? 

The rules do mean something and need to be followed. The interpretations of the rules however are a completely different story, hence the hands on apprenticeship program, the evaluation of the judge both as a hunter and an experienced dog person. And most importantly the program's self realization that not every occurence can be regulated hence the specifric instructions to use common sense and to evaluate the dog by asking "would I hunt with this dog?" A dog with a seasoned title is a dog the majority of hunters would be proud to own and to hunt with. It might be beneath the standard of many here, but I can assure you, there are far more people who hunt than who train and breed dogs. as their primary hobby or avocation.

Once upon a time, I apprenticed as a junior judge. We had an older guy with a professionally trained dog. This guy, a doctor if I recollect, was a walking heart attack he was so nervous. This dog was rock steady, went out like greased lightning, stepped on his marks, came back as quick as he went out, snapped into heel and tilted his head UP to deliver the bird - you couldn't ask for nicer. On the very last bird, this handler, visibly shaking dropped the bird during the exchange. The handler and dog were failed. On the same test we had a less than stellar performance from a middle aged woman and her dog. You measured the area of the this dog's hunt using zip and area codes; needed to put a mirror in front of the dog's nose periodically to check if it was still breathing and who on at least one of the retrieves was on her belly to catch the bird as the dog dropped it. This dog passed. One met the letter of the law, one met the spirit of the law - which dog would you rather own/hunt with? And which dog was more correctly called a junior hunter?

I'm a judge not a referee. I get paid the big bucks to interpret the rules as they apply to the program. 

I respect Ken and his co-judges opinion - bringing it out for debate is a worthy endeavour.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> If the rules say "must deliver to hand" I don't know how a judge can explain passing a dog that violates a crystal clear rule, because his other work is good or even excellent. He will never do it again I bet. The game was dropped because of a duh moment so he should pass? The judge made the correct decision-it all stopped before the diversion when he didn't say fetch it up and deliver to hand before sending the dog. The rules have to mean something or the title doesn't.


I've been thinking the same thing, Nancy, but I don't know the HRC rules. IMO, the dog did not deliver to hand, which is a D/Q in the venue I run. ..and dropping the bird, getting another and delivering, and then picking up the dropped bird and delivering, is NOT delivering to hand....


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

red devil said:


> I
> 
> Once upon a time, I apprenticed as a junior judge. We had an older guy with a professionally trained dog. This guy, a doctor if I recollect, was a walking heart attack he was so nervous. This dog was rock steady, went out like greased lightning, stepped on his marks, came back as quick as he went out, snapped into heel and tilted his head UP to deliver the bird - you couldn't ask for nicer. On the very last bird, this handler, visibly shaking dropped the bird during the exchange. The handler and dog were failed. On the same test we had a less than stellar performance from a middle aged woman and her dog.  You measured the area of the this dog's hunt using zip and area codes; needed to put a mirror in front of the dog's nose periodically to check if it was still breathing and who on at least one of the retrieves was on her belly to catch the bird as the dog dropped it. This dog passed. One met the letter of the law, one met the spirit of the law - which dog would you rather own/hunt with? And which dog was more correctly called a junior hunter?


Well, all the heart-attack doctor had to do was have the dog pick it up and deliver to hand and all would be OK in my book. The dog that hunted all over the state on all marks the way described couldn't mark. Even though it brought back all the birds, sounds like a SOB... stumble on bird. If the test is a marking test, sounds like the dog couldn't mark.

and... I'm not criticizing the OP. He asked for opinions and he's getting them. I wasn't there. so I can only imagine based on what I read.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> The interpretations of the rules however are a completely different story,


Deliver to hand is pretty clear to me-it doesn't mean drop on the ground and retrieve later. I am not a judge that is mean to nervous newby's but the rules say deliver to hand. I'm sure the judge would have said you can tell your dog to to fetch it up but the handler took that option away by sending his dog, and the handler knew he made a mistake.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

handler picked it up off the ground, and turned to the judges with the bird - handler didn't know any better. Handler was not given the option of putting the bird back on the ground, having the dog fetch it, then deliver. Common sense?


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Deliver to hand is pretty clear to me-it doesn't mean drop on the ground and retrieve later. I am not a judge that is mean to nervous newby's but the rules say deliver to hand. I'm sure the judge would have said you can tell your dog to to fetch it up but the handler took that option away by sending his dog, and the handler knew he made a mistake.


But HRC rules unlike AKC rules do not expressly mandate a failure for non delivery to hand. And as you indicate, the handler did not give the judge enough time to correct the situation before he sent the dog. I am 99% positive the handler had no idea what he was about to do ( seen it before more than once). So the question becomes do you penalize a dog and the handler for a one off bone headed move, that hopefully won't happen again or do you step in to try and correct the situation to conform as best as possible to the rules and allow the dog to demonstrate if this was an isolated incident or a pattern deserving of failure. Ken chose fail, I would have chosen to continue. 

Interestingly, under HRC rules if Ken and I had been judging together and had reached our respective opinions, the dog would have in all likelyhood allowed to continue as both judges must agree to immediately fail the dog. Ultimately, the dog may have failed, but that decision would have been reached later.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

red devil said:


> handler picked it up off the ground, and turned to the judges with the bird - handler didn't know any better. Handler was not given the option of putting the bird back on the ground, having the dog fetch it, then deliver. Common sense?


No, failure to read the rulebook before running your dog is not an excuse. I can see if it was a child but an adult has the responsibility to read the rules before running. The I didn't know-it wasn't my fault society. The more you say, the clearer picture I get.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

In some support for Red Devil, I post this from the rule book regarding the Seasoned test:

_JUDGES

Judges will provide an explanation of each hunt test objective to the Handlers. *Judges will “pass” or “fail” a hunting retriever based on its ability rather than the Handler’s expertise.* The Judges must follow the Seasoned Hunt Test Rules and Judge’s Guidelines. Gunners and Bird Boys shall be placed at the Judge’s discretion. There must be at least two Judges, one of which must be licensed or AA Licensed if one is an Apprentice Judge. The Judge’s decision is final._ [emphasis added]


I still agree with the original judges' decision: fail due to lack of control on delivery (i.e., failure to deliver to hand). The rule doesn't read: The bird may sometimes be delivered to hand. The rules states: The bird must be delivered to hand. [emphasis added]

One can argue it's not only the handler's responsibility to get the bird to hand from the retrieve (as in a continuous sequence of movement/behavior), but also the dog's responsibility to get the bird to hand. It's a team sport.

The handler errored by not enforcing a behavior of the dog to bring the bird to hand as a final act of that specifc retrieve.

Although the seminar booklet doesn't explictly mention that a judge MUST fail due to lack of delivery to hand, it's unreasonable to assume that the rule has no force or meaning within context.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

PhilBernardi said:


> In some support for Red Devil, I post this from the rule book regarding the Seasoned test:
> 
> _JUDGES
> 
> ...


I'm in complete agreement - the only issue I am disputing is the sanction. Unlike AKC where the sanction is expressly provided, HRC allows some lattitude. Other "crimes" such as a switch at finished or a break at any level define the test as failed.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm not an HRC guy, but the relevant rules have been quoted and very good arguments have been made for both sides. I applaud Ken for putting this up for debate, he is obviously, experienced, open minded and confident. After reading all this and having the advantage of a full day to think about it I honestly could go either way on it. My gut tells me fail and I expect the handler wasn't at all surprised when he did fail, but I see the argument for saying the bird was delivered to hand, just delayed. If all their other work was stellar, I wouldn't fight my co-judge too much if he wanted to pass the guy.

These unusual situation, gray areas are the most fun to debate. Again, kudos to Ken for bringing it up.

John


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

red devil said:


> I'm in complete agreement - the only issue I am disputing is the sanction. Unlike AKC where the sanction is expressly provided, HRC allows some lattitude. Other "crimes" such as a switch at finished or a break at any level define the test as failed.


Yep I agree, it states a retriever 'can be failed for failure to deliver to Hand' (except in Started which is to the area of the handler). Thats why you really have to see the whole test and dog. I could have gone either way once I saw the dog run and had a discussion with my co-judge. It would have been interesting to see how my co-judge saw it. I find most of the time we are both spot on!!


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I said earlier that I could see a valid arguement in either direction. I think the judge in this case made a good decision, explained himself well in the heat of the moment, and did a good job. As I said, with my limited understanding of the HRC rules, I could see it called either way and am glad I was not judging the situation, no matter how you call it people will likely disagree.

My question, I guess issue is with the rules regarding the diversion. I would tend to agree if switching on a diversion can still pass, why have it in a stake for the reason that it adds the possibility of scenerios like this that are hard to interpret in the heat of the moment. On one hand the arguement about a wounded bird getting away is a valid arguement for delivery to hand (which in this case the dog did eventually do). And failure to deliver to hand promptly is justifiably grounds for elimination. However as I said earlier, if a dog can spit a bird 30 feet away, switch, and pass, to me that is a more blatent flaw than one that comes back to heel and is soo amped to get the other one he spits at the handler, who concievably could have grabbed it as the dog came around had he been at all worried about his dogs mouth habits. While this case is odd in that the handler performed a DAH/SHE the question has been brought up where is the line between failin gto deliver to hand and switching? If the dog had raced to handler spit it at his feet and taken back off with no direction or stop of motion, which is it? If the dog gets to within five feet, which is it? Etc. This type of Grey area is why I would agree with the individual that said if switching on a diversion is allowed, then the diversion should be taken out. To me, if you are going to have a diversion in a stake, it should be a pass fail thing, the dog switches it FAILED, the dog doesn't he passed that portion......

Again though, I agree with how the judge handled it, had he gone the otehr way with the same rational reason, I could have agreed also. And thank him from bringing up the topic. Even though I have not run HRC, I hope to some day, and these types of discussions can be helpful to understand interpretations that can be used to add to ANYONE's library of knowledge, no matter the venue.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

did the dog drop anyother birds and have to be told to fetch them up? Repeated evidence might be a factor that might sway me one way or the other.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Here's another possible interpretation.

If the team was flawless on other tests, one could argue based on the complete picture that the team ought to be failed for not meeting all the rules of the Seasoned test. If they are that good, then one would expect the team to complete a delivery to hand. ;-)


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## snota deaco (Oct 29, 2007)

Ken
You were spot on......I agree with Gooser.......Dog didn't deliver to hand......fails. 
You were also correct to inform the handler as soon as you and your co-judge agreed the test was failed and there was no chance of passing. That is what is being taught at the seminars, and it is good to see judges abiding by what the Field Reps are teaching. It isnt always easy but I believe is the right thing to do. 
Gooser....I believe there is hope for you after all.
Jimmy


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Mistyriver said:


> Yep I agree, it states a retriever 'can be failed for failure to deliver to Hand' (except in Started which is to the area of the handler). Thats why you really have to see the whole test and dog. I could have gone either way once I saw the dog run and had a discussion with my co-judge. It would have been interesting to see how my co-judge saw it. I find most of the time we are both spot on!!


A Seasoned retriever is required to deliver to hand; i.e. 

From the Seasoned portion of the rulebook.....

IV. The bird must be delivered to hand.

as well as.....

Per the Rule book DELIVERY

"A retriever should promptly return to the handler (handler area in started) with the bird and deliver it in such a manner as to not risk losing it if it were a cripple or damaging the meat."


No where does it say a Seasoned dog "can" be failed for failure to deliver to hand. 

I respectfully believe you are mistaken on that one.

Janet


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## torrentduck (Jul 27, 2009)

I am still relatively new to this hunt test stuff. I entered one seasoned event last year and did not pass. Hopefully this test season will be different. Personally, I want to be proud of my dog's passes. I almost passed a JH test once after a horrendous land series (was allowed to move to water series in PM) and though I was disappointed at the time, I would not have felt good about that pass. Regarding the original poster's description, if my dog comes to heel and either drops the bird and takes off for the diversion (her fault) or I have a brain fart and send her after the diversion before having her pick up the bird (my fault), I would not expect to pass. It would sting at the time, but I'd feel better once the title was obtained if this pass was not in the mix. Guess for me it's more about the quality of the trip than the time it takes to get there....just my opinion.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

jksboxofchocolates said:


> A Seasoned retriever is required to deliver to hand; i.e.
> 
> From the Seasoned portion of the rulebook.....
> 
> ...




You are correct. Not under Season. That was taken under Judging retrievers page 33 and states that each category has its own standards to follow, but whether that means that reading also is not clear. I know if a season dog does not deliver a bird to hand it is a failure, but it doesn't really make since why in the rule book it says 'can be' when I don't know any category where that would be a pass for 'failure to deliver to hand' except in started. It seems to be a contradictive statement.


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## lancinslabs (Jan 24, 2011)

JMO but it's not a switch! It's a failure to deliver to hand and the handler made the error which fails the team. We have all had it to happen to us as some point.


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## Joseph Kendrick (Mar 19, 2010)

If it had happened on any other retrieve it would be cut and dried "failure to deliver to hand" however it happened on the diversion so the rules for diversion apply. The rules do not define the area where a dog can drop one bird and pick up the diversion. If both birds were delivered to hand in either order then it was not grounds for a failure.


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

Let's remember that the Seasoned Test consists of:
A double Marked Land Retrieve
A double Marked Water retrieve
A Walk Up / Walk Out
A Diversion
A Land Blind
A Water Blind
These elements are independent of each other ... The Dog Handler Team did a great job on the diversion and failed the Marks for not delivering to hand. For those who are arguing the sequence of retrieves is defensible what would you say if Fido spit out the Water Marks in a pile and then after running and delivering the water blind to hand proceeded to pickup the Water Marks and deliver to hand? After all we can not dictate the order of retrieves right?


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Joseph Kendrick said:


> If it had happened on any other retrieve it would be cut and dried "failure to deliver to hand" however it happened on the diversion so the rules for diversion apply. The rules do not define the area where a dog can drop one bird and pick up the diversion. If both birds were delivered to hand in either order then it was not grounds for a failure.


I would have to disagree and here's why. _*IF*_ the dog had dropped the bird and left on his own accord to retrieve the diversion I would agree, BUT the dog (according to the original post) did not leave to retrieve the diversion until it was released by the handler. Therefore I do not see it as a switch but a mistake on the handlers part for not making the dog deliver to hand.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Straight up Seasoned land double with a diversion after the last bird. Dog retrieves first bird, delivers to hand. Dog retrieves second bird, diversion is thrown away from dog, *dog returns to heel*, spits bird out on ground, *handler sends dog to retrieve diversion*. 

The above is the quote as to Kens original post..
I am amazed that there has become an interpretational debate over this!
This is one of the reasons I fear Judging. This example is so clear cut to me that I dont understand the debate.

As per the rules ans sugestions in the Seminar.
ALL levels must dispaly the same actions to accomplish a retrieve.

1. It must mark. (go directly to the area of fall, and establish a hunt)
In Started,, it must return to the immediate area defined by judges,, does not have to deliver to hand.
2 In Seasoned and Finished,,,It must return to that same immediate area,, and must do so in such a manner that if it were a cripple it wouldnt escape. It clearly defines in the rules and states this means deliver *TO HAND.*

In the original post, Ken said the the dog retrieves the second bird,, *AND RETURNS TO HEEL* (there,, is the immediate area that many here are questioning how far away the dog can be before the dog can be judged that it switched) The dog came back to heel, THEN spits the bird out on the ground. AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME,,,,, the dog is in serious trouble of failing a Seasoned test, because if the handler doesnt get the dog to pick that bird up off the ground,, and deliver,, it will fail!!

What happens next,, is the handler makes the decision, or has a brain fart,, or what ever reason,, decides to ignor the bird on the ground, send the dog on the diversion.

ITS OVER!!

the dog Failed to meet the requirement per rule and seminar to deliver that second bird to hand. It came back promtly to the immediate area (heel) but spit the bird on the ground, and if it was a cripple might have gotten away. then the handler ignored that requirement,, and sent the dog.

*TO ME!!!*

Its so cut and dried and very obvious! 
To have other FR's (Ken said 6 or 8 others told him he made the wrong decision)  and the handler,decide to make and issue over this scares me to death. ITS so BASIC! 

Its stuff like this that make me very leery of judging upper levels.

And I still stand by my OPIONION that a ribbon should MEAN something.

Gooser


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> To have other FR's (Ken said 6 or 8 others told him he made the wrong decision)  and the handler,decide to make and issue over this scares me to death. ITS so BASIC!
> 
> 
> Gooser


I need to clarify. The handler DID NOT make an issue over this. He fully understood why he failed and agrees then and now.

The issue was brought up by someone else.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thanks Ken for the clarification.

But tyou then said:

The issue was brought up by someone else.

Makes it even worse. IMHO. Judges decisions are final....... per rules.


Gooser


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Failure for lack of delivery to hand for all the reasons already mentioned by others.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

i have a question did the field rep over turn your decision? if it was over turned where in the rule book is it i can't find it now but i'm sure it says that the judges decision is final


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

From Page 32 & 33 of the seminar book, which I have been told by several Field Reps is just as binding as the rulebook:

*The bird must be delivered to hand.* (Seasoned Test Rules)

We learned in the Started Guidelines that consistent failure to deliver or consistent reluctance
to deliver can result in failure. As better control is expected at each higher testing level, it
follows that the same guidelines should apply to a Seasoned dog as well.
Some verbal encouragement at this level to get a dog to hold and properly deliver a bird is
reasonable. On occasion a Seasoned dog might drop a bird to get a better hold and the
delivery usually continues promptly without handler intervention. Judges should note on their
sheets however, when a dog drops a bird for reasons other than to get a better hold and note
the extent the handler has to get involved to get the dog to complete the delivery.

*Recommendation – Seasoned Delivery:*
Seasoned dogs that drop several birds in the tests have a delivery problem that should
earn a mark down. If the dog requires consistent handler coaxing or other intervention
to pick up these birds and complete delivery, this may warrant failure for lack of
control on delivery.

*Note: A dog may come in and inadvertently drop the bird before the handler takes it. Good
judges quickly remind the handler to have the dog pick it up so the delivery can be to “hand”.*

This to me says that the dog is to deliver to hand when he brings the bird back. NOT after retrieving other birds and delivering them 1st. 

This is the basis of my opinion that he dog failed to deliver to hand.


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## clipper (May 11, 2003)

In seasoned, you are going to have 8 chances to see the dog deliver a bird to hand. IF this is the only bird the dog drops, I am going to feel that the drop was a result of the diversion. HRC (right or wrong) has decided that at the seasoned level, the dog will not be failed as a result of a switch on the diverson bird alone. so much for the dogs part.
The handler probably should have had the dog pick the dropped bird up before sending him for the diversion. However, as we have seen on this thread, it is a very gray area. Therefore, he could have felt that it was ok to get the diversion, and then picked up the dropped mark. 
If the rest of this dog's work was good (particularly delivery), I would have felt fine with passing the dog.


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