# Nahra , akc. Hrc ??



## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

With all the AKC gun dog tests filling up so fast and huge numbers:

Would you GunDog folks think this may be a good opportunity for NAHRA and HRC to take "back" some market share???

I'm sure Frank and company are on this but just thought I'd put it out there...

Full disclosure I started with NAHRA in '84

Has the MN title opened the door for competition ???


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

What is NAHRA?

There's your answer. 

Folks are focused on a few HTs that are filling up. Check out EE. There are many, many events with lots of slots. 

Is the sky really falling?

I'm too new to say for sure.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

mitty said:


> What is NAHRA?
> 
> There's your answer.
> 
> ...


Not sure the sky is falling... But the AKC did jump on the coattails of NAHRA and HRC to establish their program.....

Thought I'd pose the question....


Answer to your question.....NAHRA was the first GunDog testing body... Argumently with HRC


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Really, since it seems to be a grounds issue or a personnel issue, why would HRC or NAHRA clubs be able to magically find these resources in the same places where Akc clubs can't?


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

our hrc club will run ~120 dogs the next two days. 40 started, 20 seasoned and 60 finished both days. 240 tests to run in two days. though ours is a nicely attended test, the numbers have nothing to do with "filled up" master tests.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

It's a numbers issue..... NAHRA doesn't have this problem because nobody enters NAHRA tests...

Thus giving them more room for entries..... That they don't have .

Simple supply and demand..

P.S. Not trying to argue just inquiring.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

mitty said:


> What is NAHRA?
> 
> There's your answer.
> 
> ...


What is NAHRA? NAHRA was HT before HT was cool.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

huntinman said:


> What is NAHRA? NAHRA was HT before HT was cool.


Thank you Bill...
that was my point of starting this thread...



although we don't know each other out paths went the same route...

Randy


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

There's no NAHRA here, there's no HRC here. There's barely any AKC here.

Most of us are worried about keeping the existing clubs going. How are you proposing to find grounds and people for new clubs?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

mitty said:


> Really, since it seems to be a grounds issue or a personnel issue, why would HRC or NAHRA clubs be able to magically find these resources in the same places where Akc clubs can't?


It's not a "grounds" issue. The bottom line is that the AKC is the 2 Ton Gorilla in the room. Breeders want the AKC titles. (Whether they mean anything more or less than the other HT titles or not). Once the AKC jumped into the HT game, it was just a matter of time before NAHRA suffered (don't know enough about HRC to comment, haven't been around it). 
AKC doesn't recognize NAHRA or HRC titles. So many folks who have to choose one over the other choose AKC. 

So, it's a demand issue. You can only realistically have so many dogs at a test on a given day... This has been discussed ad nauseum... They can fix it if they want to. Anything can be done if the WILL is there.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

mitty said:


> There's no NAHRA here, there's no HRC here. There's barely any AKC here.
> 
> Most of us are worried about keeping the existing clubs going. How are you proposing to find grounds and people for new clubs?


You don't need new clubs or new grounds. Existing clubs start running NAHRA or HRC. Events on existing grounds


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

mitty said:


> There's no NAHRA here, there's no HRC here. There's barely any AKC here.
> 
> Most of us are worried about keeping the existing clubs going. How are you proposing to find grounds and people for new clubs?


Mitty , it is a challenge. That's why I posed the question... Some clubs can't get grounds/workers but yet yet others can't get entry's. 

If folks truly wanted to play with their dogs and didn't care about AKC titles....

NAHRA would be a viable option... Yes??


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

HRC is already there, it may become my venue of choice. No catching up here, plenty of tests and has more realistic hunting situations. I have spent 13 years in AKC HT and will seriously switch venues based on how 2014 works out and what the rules committee decides. NARHA on the other hand has the catching up to do because of the lack in the numbers of tests in this region.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Rnd said:


> .....If folks truly wanted to play with their dogs and didn't care about AKC titles....


 Then they wouldn't spend money on entry fees and travel/lodging to run their dogs in Hunt Tests.
Instead, they would just train.

And it's not just about the "challenge" of Master and the Master National vs the other venues.
It's about the significance of the titles.

Master is WAY tougher than Finished. I don't care what the HRC die hards keep trying to insist. 
It isn't even close.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

NAHRA is still viable in AK. It's just as fun, and you see alot of the same folks and same dogs as at AKC- but we have no HRC events, I don't think. NAHRA would have to function as a registry- so breeders could offer pedigrees with titles to prospective buyers, in order to really gain ground, or else the UKC/HRC or AKC would have to recognize their titles... NAHRA in some ways seems more of a hunters venue than the others, which seem to be composed of more dog people than hunters, ie- people who would be doing agility or OB or herding what have you if their breed of choice weren't retrievers, I know that looks inconsistent with my first sentence... My point is, NAHRA brings out people who wouldn't otherwise be interested in dog games.


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

HRC is not as prevalent in the North East as other parts of the country. NAHRA is around but limited in venues. I'd consider both if they were in the area and AKC continued to close out so fast with entry problems. *However, if NAHRA wants to compete they must have on line entry*. If they don't then the more irrelevant they become. Competition is what creates innovation and new ideas which is what NAHRA needs to grow and stay around. 

As for AKC, access to property,volunteerism and costs are factored similarly for HRC and NAHRA. These elements will continue to challenge clubs across all groups.

The disturbance for all AKC clubs is the rules concerning MN which is putting undue pressure on the clubs and all those trying to qualify and get there. *It's kinda ironic that HT got away from the FT one winner format and now one event MN format is what is turning what was working on it's head.* Seems to me if you can fix that problem we are back to a more level playing field for everyone.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> There's no NAHRA here, there's no HRC here. There's barely any AKC here.
> 
> Most of us are worried about keeping the existing clubs going. How are you proposing to find grounds and people for new clubs?


Same; nothing near Watford, ON unless I jump stateside for HRC and FT. I can travel towards Kitchner, Hamilton and TO if I wanted but prefer the shorter route to Michigan trials and tests and cheaper gas!!!. 
Southwestern Ontario Retriever Club (SWORT) holding an event this spring for Amat. FT, Strathroy and Delaware, Ontario. They may be having a HT as well. Someone can chime in and correct me. As for NAHRA I went to one event near Guelph many years ago and it was good. Too far to drive however!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Both lack one major thing to make them nearly as popular as AKC......a registry that anyone cares about. UKC is a distant, distant, distant second to AKC and the mainstream just doesn't care about UKC/HRC in that regard. 
Not knocking HRC, that is where I started and it is always fun. HRC has its own set of problems and they are equal to AKC in those terms.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

NAHRA is for bird hunters. AKC is for title/ribbon hunters. Once you decide which you truly are, the decision on which to run is very easy.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

roseberry said:


> our hrc club will run ~120 dogs the next two days. 40 started, 20 seasoned and 60 finished both days. 240 tests to run in two days. though ours is a nicely attended test, the numbers have nothing to do with "filled up" master tests.


And today my club is running 12 finished, 5 seasoned, and 6 started dogs. One less tomorrow. My guess is this will be our last HRC event. Three weeks ago 60 master and I don't recall the other numbers. Now we are at the end of the world so a lot of people just won't travel that far south, but FIVE times as many will make the trip for ALC as HRC. The majority of our entries in this HRC are our own club members even though there are two other HRC clubs in the state. They appear to not be willing to drive 2-4 hours for a test.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

stonybrook said:


> NAHRA is for bird hunters. AKC is for title/ribbon hunters. Once you decide which you truly are, the decision on which to run is very easy.


i love how NAHRA and HRC like to take that route and then complain about success. Yes more non hunters play AKC than the others two venues, but many more of us are bird hunters. NONE of the venues come close to putting on a real days hunt, nor is anyone better for hunters than the other.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

yeah, but as a registry the UKC, regardless of there second rate status has always been about sporting dogs, was founded specifically to register pit bulldogs and then coonhounds- so the claims they make regarding HRC are fair, as are NAHRA's claims. and then they are supposed to be tests, not canned hunts. but, the bottom line is- they do not draw dog people like the AKC does, and so it doesn't matter about online event entry, or land, or limits in masters. Dog people drive dog games, not hunters, regardless what the activity in question is descended from. NAHRA marketed themselves to hunters, and has a representative market share in the dog game world, comprised primarily of hunters who like running dogs. UKC/HRC offers a legitimate registry, with roots grown in sporting competition, and have "successfully" parlayed that into a corresponding market share, appealing to sportsmen and dog people both. AKC is an unstoppable force in the purebred dog world, and has a corresponding marketshare- populated mainly by dog folk, some of whom hunt, some of whom don't.


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

stonybrook said:


> NAHRA is for bird hunters. AKC is for title/ribbon hunters. Once you decide which you truly are, the decision on which to run is very easy.


Spoken like a true NAHRA die hard.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> Both lack one major thing to make them nearly as popular as AKC......a *registry that anyone cares about. U*KC is a distant, distant, distant second to AKC and the mainstream just doesn't care about UKC/HRC in that regard.
> Not knocking HRC, that is where I started and it is always fun. HRC has its own set of problems and they are equal to AKC in those terms.


In the big scheme of things, who really cares about the registry as far as HT titles go anyway? If most folks are really honest with themselves when they look at a pedigree they are not looking for MH's... They are looking for FT titles anyway...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

huntinman said:


> In the big scheme of things,* who really cares about the registry* as far as HT titles go anyway? If most folks are really honest with themselves when they look at a pedigree they are not looking for MH's... *They are looking for FT titles anyway...*


*
*
Apparently lots of folks care and that is why they run AKC. Not all HT dog handlers are looking for FT pedigrees, in fact I bet more dogs entered in your average hunt test come from HT breedings than from FT breeding. I agree that HT titles mean little compared to FT titles in a pedigree, but there are lots and lots of nice dogs out there from MH breedings (and HRCH as well).


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> [/B]
> Apparently lots of folks care and that is why they run AKC. Not all HT dog handlers are looking for FT pedigrees, in fact I bet more dogs entered in your average hunt test come from HT breedings than from FT breeding. I agree that HT titles mean little compared to FT titles in a pedigree, but there are lots and lots of nice dogs out there from MH breedings (and HRCH as well).


Don't dispute that, but if you look at the ads for their breedings, they will tout the FT side of it.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> i love how NAHRA and HRC like to take that route and then complain about success. Yes more non hunters play AKC than the others two venues, but many more of us are bird hunters. NONE of the venues come close to putting on a real days hunt, nor is anyone better for hunters than the other.


I'm not complaining, I'm just telling it like it is. I like, run and judge both AKC and NAHRA. I run one for fun and for titles. Thankfully I live in an area where both are available to me and my dogs. I think if you ask folks that run AKC how much they truly enjoy it they wouldn't come close to how much folks enjoy running NAHRA. There is a lot to be said for huge entry numbers and for low entry numbers. Myself, I enjoy a 25 dog NAHRA Senior over a 60 dog Master. I'll be the first to admit that I wish NAHRA was given more recognition but if the price to pay is sacrificing the enjoyment, then I'd be totally fine with the size it is right now.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Madluke said:


> Spoken like a true NAHRA die hard.


I'm a hunt test die hard with a passion for NAHRA, an affinity for AKC and aspirations for field trials one day.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

huntinman said:


> Don't dispute that, but if you look at the ads for their breedings, they will tout the FT side of it.


agree, although a lot are FC to JH, SH or non titled "out of FC" dogs.....not sure that is a lot better than MH to MH. At least you know the two MH litter can hunt. That FC better bring a lot to make up for the lack of proof with the JR/SR or not titled "out of". 
I also tend to believe FC breedings advertise because they have too to bring the price. Many HT breedings are not advertised.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

"At least you know the two MH litter can hunt" Badbullgator

Corey, you make some good points....

However I would disagree with this statement...

you've been around long enough to know when these GunDog games started the best were out of/by field trial stock.....


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## Jeff Brezee (Nov 21, 2012)

stonybrook said:


> I'm a hunt test die hard with a passion for NAHRA, an affinity for AKC and aspirations for field trials one day.


Now THAT is a die hard statement! 

Well said Travis.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> Both lack one major thing to make them nearly as popular as AKC......a registry that anyone cares about. UKC is a distant, distant, distant second to AKC and the mainstream just doesn't care about UKC/HRC in that regard.
> Not knocking HRC, that is where I started and it is always fun. HRC has its own set of problems and they are equal to AKC in those terms.


IMO AKC HT is a distant, distant, distant second to HRC - HRC #1 IMO that is why we are all running what we are running!!


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## pagedog (Apr 27, 2009)

I believe that weekend AKC HTs are filling because there is now a huge demand for an entry into the Master National. Just look at the almost exponential number of entries in the MN since 2008-9. It takes 6 passes over the period of August 1 to July 31 each year to get in each year and this increases entries in weekend HTs. You only have to qualify once for the HRC Grand.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

huntinman said:


> You don't need new clubs or new grounds. Existing clubs start running NAHRA or HRC. Events on existing grounds


Why would a club that is already successful with AKC HTs switch??? Or are you suggesting that those same few who are working their butts off to put on AKC tests do even more work by also hosting NAHRA and HRC events?

The consensus seems to be that the events are filling because of Master Nationals. But a club can choose not to be a MN club. No reason for them to reinvent the wheel. If all they want to do is limit entries, they can decide not to send in their fee, no?

Meanwhile my club's April HT has been open for over a week. So far little ole me is the only entry. We are a MN club.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

mitty said:


> Why would a club that is already successful with AKC HTs switch??? Or are you suggesting that those same few who are working their butts off to put on AKC tests do even more work by also hosting NAHRA and HRC events?
> 
> The consensus seems to be that the events are filling because of Master Nationals. But a club can choose not to be a MN club. No reason for them to reinvent the wheel. If all they want to do is limit entries, they can decide not to send in their fee, no?
> 
> Meanwhile my club's April HT has been open for over a week. So far little ole me is the only entry. We are a MN club.


In one post you are worrying about having enough events to run or keeping the events you have. Now you are saying, you have too much to do as it is... 

I was just offering an alternative to the problem I THOUGHT you expressed. Guess I was wrong. Not the first (or last) time.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

huntinman said:


> In one post you are worrying about having enough events to run or keeping the events you have. Now you are saying, you have too much to do as it is...
> 
> I was just offering an alternative to the problem I THOUGHT you expressed. Guess I was wrong. Not the first (or last) time.


No I did not express those thoughts. The OP's post is about nonAKC organizations stepping in and providing opportunities to people who can't get into AKC MH tests. At least that is what I think he is suggesting. My observations are that some clubs are having problems with too much demand while other clubs have plenty of room. So, 1) if adding additional events in those regions where demand is excessive were feasible, wouldn't the AKC clubs whose events are in high demand do so? 2) While many clubs are overwhelmed, many have plenty of room (such as my club). People are up in arms about events filling quickly but it is not a universal problem.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Rnd said:


> "At least you know the two MH litter can hunt" Badbullgator
> 
> Corey, you make some good points....
> 
> ...


You won't argue that at all and never have. My point is there are very, very good dogs out of HT dogs. Of course they all have FT dogs somewhere along the line. 
This thread is not about this so I won't derail from the OT


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> IMO AKC HT is a distant, distant, distant second to HRC - HRC #1 IMO that is why we are all running what we are running!!



In my business there are facts that are documented and then there are stories you tell yourself to feel good. Opinions are just that and facts back up my statement.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Some very good points have been made... As Bill stated the AKC is the 900 pound gorilla in the room...

However, if these dog games were a business (some would argue they are) it just seems like there is an opportunity to take some market share from the industry leader....

some say that the clubs are at capacity. These same clubs are complaining that their members can't enter their own events......
If the goal is to run your dog there is an option.....

If the goal is a title that shows on an AKC pedigree there is an option for that as well...

Daimler and Benz invented the automobile.....Henry Ford figured out a way to make it available to the masses.....Detroit went into bankruptcy.......

i don't have any skin in this game but the problem with GunDog tests is a good one........

Randy


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> In my business there are facts that are documented and then there are stories you tell yourself to feel good. Opinions are just that and facts back up my statement.


To each his own I say!!!IMO


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Rnd said:


> Some very good points have been made... As Bill stated the AKC is the 900 pound gorilla in the room...
> 
> However, if these dog games were a business (some would argue they are) it just seems like there is an opportunity to take some market share from the industry leader....
> 
> ...


It is a business, but the heart of the business is run by volunteers. Profit is motivation and club profit is not individual profit. If someone could figure out how to hold test and personally make money the vacuum would fill, but most people who run clubs are not interested in filling the void by donating there time anymore than they already do. 

The heart of the matter is AKC and MN are successful beyond their highest expectations. The funny thing is AKC could care less about HT. The reason AKC test are filing is because of the MN. That is what the majority of the people entering the filled limited test are interested in. They just don't care about the other venues. HRC and NHRA don't offer an event that MOST retriever enthusiast are interested in. That is not to say that either of them are bad, just that the gorilla has the lions share of participants. They are not interested in just running test, they want to run test to qualify for a greater event the others can't offer. 
I have run the Grand and loved it. I would do it again, but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN.


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

stonybrook said:


> I'm a hunt test die hard with a passion for NAHRA, an affinity for AKC and aspirations for field trials one day.


Point taken and I'd add that AKC , HRC , NAHRA and Field Trials all have positives with many great hunting dogs running in each affiliation. I think they all give out ribbons.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I have noticed that AKC has been copying HRC of late. This isn't a bad thing, actually rather smart. We now have requirements in AKC that judges actually have to run and qualify dogs to maintain judge status. AKC also now has a Higher title than just MH that is attained at a National event like HRC. AKC now has extended the recommended max distance to match HRC. Now if AKC would just get the MN club to hold 2 events a year that would help a lot especially if they are on opposite coasts.

AKC and HRC are different and one can be harder or easier depending on the dog and handler and region. 
As an example my dog has never failed a Nahra test, Failed 1 Master, and 3 HRC Finished. 

There is a HRC club in AK Interior Alaska HRC http://www.iagda.org/ Fairbanks AK.

They are all just different games we play with our dogs. They show us things about ourselves and our dogs, They bring us together with other people and give us a chance to help newbies and learn more from more experienced people. I like all the venues and play them all (haven't been to a SRS event yet but want to). I would like to see more of all events.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

mitty said:


> Really, since it seems to be a grounds issue or a personnel issue, why would HRC or NAHRA clubs be able to magically find these resources in the same places where Akc clubs can't?


while it is hard to tell, at times if you are trying to be argumentative or flippant or seriously seeking info. I let this slide. But it has gnawed on me so while it may be a waste of my typing time I will go for it.
Seeing I am a member of a club that puts on both and I have been the test chairperson for our NAHRA field tests more than a few times and been on the test committee for the AKC hunt more than a few times.
I can sit down at my kitchen table on a Sunday afternoon with a telephone and a blank yellow pad of paper. And in about 3 hours have everything in place for a NAHRA Field test. I can call 1 landowner friend and have room for the test. Get my judges, most of that 3 hours is chat time. Then the next morning, (Monday) call or email Rosemary and make sure my judges are legal and my committee members dues are paid up. Order my outhouses and birds and lunches. Email my premium to club member Mel for an legal eye proof read so folks don't catch on how stupid I can be and then have lunch.... POOF... A test is in the books!!
Now on the other hand it takes a group of 5ish at a kitchen table with phones and legal pads at least 2 Sundays Just to agree on and then contact and then make sure they are legal AKC judges. Even then they may not be able to make it. Then the more complicated land requirements. See that pesky land / water combo can be a bitch to find if you do not want to settle for a hay field with a wide, sloppy ditch in it. Some of the land owners we use require a personal visit. Like Bovine's Gully at Goodrich corner you all know and love to crash and burn in. That requires a drive down and chat with Mark and Paul and at least an hour of your life just to get a piece of paper signed. That you know they will sign anyway but gosh they love to bitch about the State. 
Everything is so much bigger and harder to deal with. Thinking about how you are going to get 75 pick up trucks off of a dirt road and into a bean field 'cause it may rain and the county has a new deputy sheriff with a stick up his pooper about the "traveled portion of the road" are things that will make you pull your hair out.
it is like the difference between tossing together a weekend super bowl party and it's snacks and guests vs. the time you planned your wedding and dealt with all the guests and who sits next to who and locations and food and yada yada yada!!!!


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Ken you really have it figured out. We are some what lucky in that the club owns the grounds we just need to find judges, workers and such.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Like Ken I have done this many times for NAHRA and HRC. Our club has been affiliated with all three at various times and I have worked all but one AKC/HT, but not organized them. Our AKC tests have been small and we were not Master National members until now. (We'll see what happens in May...)

In the last few years we've had land problems and weather problems and membership problems. We're not sure what's happening with members, but Iowa's pheasant hunting is all but gone (due to the weather the last few years), so that may be a contributing factor. 

I dropped out last year because of the resulting overload, but our last NAHRA test was a kind I really would have enjoyed had I only been a participant. 
https://www.facebook.com/easterniow...4108310953185/473462689351079/?type=1&theater
About a dozen hunters who train their own dogs getting together on a September weekend before hunting seasons to test their summer preparations. We had beautiful weather, good judges, good grounds. Small events can be fine. So can big ones, but then you REALLY have to share the work.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> while it is hard to tell, at times if you are trying to be argumentative or flippant or seriously seeking info. I let this slide. But it has gnawed on me so while it may be a waste of my typing time I will go for it.
> Seeing I am a member of a club that puts on both and I have been the test chairperson for our NAHRA field tests more than a few times and been on the test committee for the AKC hunt more than a few times.
> I can sit down at my kitchen table on a Sunday afternoon with a telephone and a blank yellow pad of paper. And in about 3 hours have everything in place for a NAHRA Field test. I can call 1 landowner friend and have room for the test. Get my judges, most of that 3 hours is chat time. Then the next morning, (Monday) call or email Rosemary and make sure my judges are legal and my committee members dues are paid up. Order my outhouses and birds and lunches. Email my premium to club member Mel for an legal eye proof read so folks don't catch on how stupid I can be and then have lunch.... POOF... A test is in the books!!
> Now on the other hand it takes a group of 5ish at a kitchen table with phones and legal pads at least 2 Sundays Just to agree on and then contact and then make sure they are legal AKC judges. Even then they may not be able to make it. Then the more complicated land requirements. See that pesky land / water combo can be a bitch to find if you do not want to settle for a hay field with a wide, sloppy ditch in it. Some of the land owners we use require a personal visit. Like Bovine's Gully at Goodrich corner you all know and love to crash and burn in. That requires a drive down and chat with Mark and Paul and at least an hour of your life just to get a piece of paper signed. That you know they will sign anyway but gosh they love to bitch about the State.
> ...


So Ken, just curious about your numbers with NHRA? Have you held 120-160 (whatever the highest level is similar to MH) dog fields with multiple flights? How deep is the judging pool? I think those are the questions associated with HRC or NHRA filling a void. Small test regardless of venue are fairly easy, easy being relative of course. 
I am not knocking NHAR or anything, in fact I am looking forward to seeing it very soon (can't be soon enough, I am long done with this thing you guys call winter). Just saying planing a small event is not apples to apples with a large event.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

*Hot Rods*

NHRA

National Hotrod Asso


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

MN and getting qualifications are the main factor to large/limited AKC tests but people switching to AKC from HRC is also a large factor. In the last 2 years I have seen a large number of previously HRC only pros at MN and the weekend tests. 

In Texas I know of 3 HRC tests that were cancel this spring due to lack of participation and one that was held with a total of 22 dogs. Whatever the problems going on with HRC, whether political, lack of challenge, titles, clubs not able to make money because of HRC charges, Grand judging or whatever, I hope they fix their issues. Everyone going to one venue is hurting all 3.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Keith Stroyan said:


> NHRA
> 
> National Hotrod Asso


That is actually what I think of first.....
just sayin


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Ken, I agree with what you are saying. Out here we don't have to worry about land and have the same AKC judge problems you do, but those are not that hard to deal with, we have been paying attention to what judges are current if we don't know we can use entry express and the AKC website to get pretty much all the judge info we need. A quick phone call can is required sometimes. 
Probably the biggest hassle now is HRC trying to get judges approved takes an act of congress. I asked for a copy of a policy from HRC and out rep 3 months before the hunt as it affected our judging pool. Finally got it 3 days after the hunt after threatening a class action lawsuit just to get the info from them. When we first started HRC 3 years ago they were very helpful and they had a secretary we could call and was very helpful and would call back and help you or just check up on you. Well they got rid of her and now it is a fight ever single test and getting to the point that I think just holding AKC tests is really the way to go. If HRC doesn't get their act together this next hunt will be my last one, which is too bad because I really like the hunts and my dog really really likes them.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

badbullgator

"... but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN."

Why?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

gdgnyc said:


> badbullgator
> 
> "... but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN."
> 
> Why?


More difficult to get there and an AKC title


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> So Ken, just curious about your numbers with NHRA? Have you held 120-160 (whatever the highest level is similar to MH) dog fields with multiple flights?


started, hunter and intermediate all under same judges not more than 15 dogs each day.
senior alone not more than 15 dogs each day, if a one day senior. we feel, in senior, 15 is all a set of judges can do in a one day test. but as you know. no matter the venue, give two judges 11 hours of daylight and they will use it


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

badbullgator Yes more non hunters play AKC than the others two venues, but many more of us are bird hunters. NONE of the venues come close to putting on a real days hunt, nor is anyone better for hunters than the other.[/QUOTE]

Been affiliated with both NAHRA and AKC for a few years and still judge both.

NAHRA has used of 300 decoys in a spread, used electronic calls, used multiple boats for both stations and handlers-yes even moved the boat from starting point to the point of origin. Used an upland hunt in a brace and wildly flushed pheasants,quail, or other species listed in the premium. NAHRA has also used live birds released that ( wait)...... the dog had to trail! A walkup, honor, triple land,triple water, quarter with steady to flush, remote, water and a land blind one incorporated with marks, trail, and other things a judge may want to see. 

Now in the AKC events we stand upright next to our doggy (drop our hand-optional, never have figured this out for a hunting dog) release fido to pick up the triples. We do (AKC) however have that infamous land/water combo  I have run out of a boat 2x by the same judge a few years apart, but the boat was on the land, dog didn't have to even reenter after its return. Upland- I been told go ahead-it will be your last time judging akc... (Guess they dont upland hunt?) Trail??? 

Now I'll give AKC that you do have to pick up more marks, and run at least 1 more blind to qualify. But at this whole time you are teaching control and the dog is by your side. PERIOD! The most freedom the dog gets is the walkup! 

Now try running an upland into a triple land series, or a trail into your marks. 


Yes you can do these things in NAHRA with the smaller # of entrants, but dont say they are not close to days hunt. 

I guess you can argue the point that in NAHRA the handler can talk quietly to your dog, ; ) I guess I do that from time to time while hunting--regards. looking forward to running HRC this summer!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I started with NAHRA back in the mid 90s. I certainly think both do have an opportunity. NAHRA, in particular, though has some bad history behind it that probably still touches nerves of some clubs--it got ugly.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> I started with NAHRA back in the mid 90s. I certainly think both do have an opportunity. NAHRA, in particular, though has some bad history behind it that probably still touches nerves of some clubs--it got ugly.


That stuff is such ancient history as not really even merit discussion in today's game. IMO


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> *More difficult* to get there and an AKC title


Debatable! IMO! Have to get the popcorn out! Two sides of that discussion.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

huntinman said:


> It's not a "grounds" issue. The bottom line is that the AKC is the 2 Ton Gorilla in the room. Breeders want the AKC titles. (Whether they mean anything more or less than the other HT titles or not). Once the AKC jumped into the HT game, it was just a matter of time before NAHRA suffered (*don't* *know* *enough* *about* *HRC* *to* *comment*, *haven't* *been* *around* *it*).
> AKC doesn't recognize NAHRA or HRC titles. So many folks who have to choose one over the other choose AKC.
> 
> So, it's a demand issue. You can only realistically have so many dogs at a test on a given day... This has been discussed ad nauseum... They can fix it if they want to. Anything can be done if the WILL is there.


Bill,

I have some up-and-coming young dogs that will hopefully be running Finished in HRC this Fall. I will be runing a few HT in Tennessee. You are more than welcome to come out and join us for some fun. Bring your dog or dogs or just run one of mine. I promise you'll have fun and I will even post play by play posts here on RTF!

Lonnie Spann


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Bill,
> 
> I have some up-and-coming young dogs that will hopefully be running Finished in HRC this Fall. I will be runing a few HT in Tennessee. You are more than welcome to come out and join us for some fun. Bring your dog or dogs or just run one of mine. I promise you'll have fun and *I will even post play by play posts here on RTF!*
> 
> Lonnie Spann


Thanks Lonnie, it all sounds great. The only thing that worries me just a smidge is the part I bolded;-)

Still recovering from reading your story on the training session with your grandson!


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

During my tenure in Iowa and EIHRA I worked all 3 types of HT and ran all 3 (NAHRA most, HRC 2nd, very minimal AKC). As a midwest upland/waterfowl hunter it is my preference to run NAHRA if you take politics, registry,etc aside. Troy T.'s description of a really good NAHRA test is spot on and was able to run several exciting scenarios such as that, maybe sometimes a little too creative on the judge's part  Purely as training my dog to hunt and would run NAHRA, unfortunately since moving to the West Coast there aren't as many close venues for me to do that easily.

My experience with HRC was mostly positive, I liked shooting from the line but I think it is way overdone (me shooting at a mark 100 yards out seems ridiculous to me, I don't take those shots in the field). The Upland tests that HRC run seem a bit contrived and un-realistic compared to what NAHRA does. Why I stopped running HRC, it seemed too focused on judging handlers and their gun safety than the dog work. 6 years in the Marine Corps and 20+ years hunting I wasn't there for that, wanted more attention paid to the dog work.

AKC - I like the technicality and difficulty of the marks. I think it is the least "social" of the venues but obviously has the biggest upside as far as national recognition and backing with a registry.

Really though its nice to have choices and they all bring a little different flavor to their test. Try them all and see which one suits your taste the best. Running at the highest level of any of the 3 probably means you have a dog that is excellent in the field.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

I have no clue what all the NAHRA history stuff is and don't care to know. I'd really like to do all that other stuff though, with all my free time.  Flushing sounds great and after working the dogs on quail and pheasant and other birds the last couple of years for training, I'd love to see what they can do. Watching them figure out that birds run was great! And dinner was even better afterwards!

Sue


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

gdgnyc said:


> badbullgator
> 
> "... but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN."
> 
> Why?


Hmm The Grand title means more than an MNH, if we're talking litters and Stud fees. There are a lot less GRHRCH dogs than MNH dogs, and people like novelty. Don't believe me just look at the Number of Studs advertised with GRHRCH titles vs. those with the MNH. I haven't seen litters for MNH titles taking a higher price nor demanding a higher stud fee than those for MHs. A MNH is a MH, who's passed at the National (which are judged to the same standard as an MH test albeit more series). On the other-hand A GRHRCH is not a HRCH who's passed a national (The grand has a very low pass rate, and a Higher standard that a finished test). It's a very hard title for an Amateur or even a Pro to obtain. UKC-HRC people respect the Grand title and go out of their way to breed to it and buy from it. Many people buy dogs with just UKC papers just for that GRHRCH title. If your looking to stud your dog with HT titles, the grand title is the one you should be going after. 

Of course we can end this debate, Take your dog to the Grand and Take your dog to the MNH, pass them both twice and see which title has people approaching you for breeding. Myself I'll be looking for the combo Grand dog with an MH title.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Rnd said:


> With all the AKC gun dog tests filling up so fast and huge numbers:
> 
> Would you GunDog folks think this may be a good opportunity for NAHRA and HRC to take "back" some market share???
> 
> ...


I think there's a good chance people will slide over to other hunt tests or move out of HT's all together maybe going to FT's. Here's the issue a local AKC club here posted a June HT and it opened last week on EE with a 60 dog limit, and now the club is a MN club. The test filled in 2 days. Why would you become a MN Club if you don't have the grounds to support a mulity flight HT. Just doesn't make any sense to become a MN Club and have a 60 dog limit. Makes about as much sense as sending your HT dog to be pro trained. If your going to use a pro to train your dogs get a good field trial pro.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Golden Boy said:


> Why would you become a MN Club if you don't have the grounds to support a mulity flight HT. Just doesn't make any sense to become a MN Club and have a 60 dog limit.


It might make sense if you would not get enough entries even to hold a HT without being a member of the MNRC.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> More difficult to get there and an AKC title


 All A MNH requires is 14 Master passes and 3 MN passes

All a GRHRCH requires is 15 Finished passes and 2 Grand passes

Pass rate is always better at the MN than the Grand.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Debatable! IMO! Have to get the popcorn out! Two sides of that discussion.


Again Mary there are facts and then stories you tell yourself to feel better. 
Harder to get to is in no way debatable. 100 points in any amount of time qualifies you to get to the grand for the rest of your days. 40 of those points may come from started or seasoned meaning you need a whopping four finished passes to qualify for the grand for life. To get to the MN you have to qualify in six master test each year. Not even close, but keep telling yourself that story. 
Anyone how claims a UKC title is equal to an AKC title is again telling themselves a story to feel better. AKC is the registry like it or not. That is not even going into the differences in difficulty between master test and finished test. Anyone who is honest with themselves will admit that on average Master is more difficult than finished, but I won't go there. 
I am not knocking a Grand pass or title or even an HRCH. I run HRC and that is were I started. I am president of an HRC club. Unless my buddy Kim Smith shows up in this thread I don't think your going to get much of the two sides.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> All A MNH requires is 14 Master passes and 3 MN passes
> 
> All a GRHRCH requires is 15 Finished passes and 2 Grand passes
> 
> Pass rate is always better at the MN than the Grand.


MH = three series. 14 passes equals 42 series
finished = two series or 30 passes. 

Stories kelly, they make you feel better. 
If the dogs that ran the MN ran the Grand the pass rate of the Grand would be higher. There are FAR too many unqualified dogs that run the grand. All you need is 100 points and you can enter for the rest of your life. A huge number of dogs are dropped at the grand after the first series because they have NO business being there.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I always think it is easier to pass a test with 3 series vs just 2. I would hate to take a driving test with only one question because if it is a question I don't know I fail. If I take a 20 question test and miss 1,2,3 or 4 I can still pass. Give me a quad or a quint in a HT any day. The less series or birds thrown the more value each bird or series has. I wish AKC would require 3 full triples rather than the current option of a double and 2 triples or worse the old minimum requirement of 1 triple and 2 doubles. 
A 1 and two 10's in marking will give you 21 which is a 7 average. A 1 and a 10 (2 series) will give you 11 and a 5.5 average....just doing math....

The stories I write (9/11) (Old man and a dog) don't always make people feel better, they usually cry...

By the way I would rather have the MNH title because no one around here even knows what a GRHRCH is or how to spell it haha, and I did have to go look it up right now...


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> It might make sense if you would not get enough entries even to hold a HT without being a member of the MNRC.


The club I'm talking about has always filled up.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> I always think it is easier to pass a test with 3 series vs just 2.


I'll give the disclaimer that my dog and I are still trying to figure how to remain seated on honor in SH, so we can't really even see the MN or Grand from where we are. The trainer/handler is the problem, of course.

However, given the pretty well-known tendencies of dogs to get progressively looser as they pick up birds and experience success, I know I do not relish the thought of trying to control mine on the 3rd day - assuming we ever get that far. And while your example is mathematically correct, what are the odds that a dog gets a 1 and 2 10s, assuming that he saw all the birds go down?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Well, I'm out of popcorn, soooooooo SING ALONG WITH ME!

(to the tune of an old kennel ration commercial)- My game's harder than your game...
My game's harder than yourrrrr's...
My game's harder 'cause I can't pass 'em all...
My game's harder than yourrrrr,s!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> Again Mary there are facts and then stories you tell yourself to feel better.
> Harder to get to is in no way debatable. 100 points in any amount of time qualifies you to get to the grand for the rest of your days. 40 of those points may come from started or seasoned meaning you need a whopping four finished passes to qualify for the grand for life. To get to the MN you have to qualify in six master test each year. Not even close, but keep telling yourself that story.
> Anyone how claims a UKC title is equal to an AKC title is again telling themselves a story to feel better. AKC is the registry like it or not. That is not even going into the differences in difficulty between master test and finished test. Anyone who is honest with themselves will admit that on average Master is more difficult than finished, but I won't go there.
> I am not knocking a Grand pass or title or even an HRCH. I run HRC and that is were I started. I am president of an HRC club. Unless my buddy Kim Smith shows up in this thread I don't think your going to get much of the two sides.


I am going to respectfully disagree with you.  I am not looking at the way to get there. It is all in what game you like and why. It is all about your dog, fun and what you want out of it. So everyone would have a different opinion! IMO message sent to you.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

paul young said:


> Well, I'm out of popcorn, soooooooo SING ALONG WITH ME!
> 
> (to the tune of an old kennel ration commercial)- My game's harder than your game...
> My game's harder than yourrrrr's...
> ...


I'm betting you don't get a lot of dinner invitations.

Wet blanket regards

Bubba


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Paul and Bubba you are both too funny , dang I can't eat popcorn that much any more!


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

In the last 2 years I have seen a large number of previously HRC only pros at MN and the weekend tests. 

In Texas I know of 3 HRC tests that were canceled this spring due to lack of participation and one that was held with a total of 22 dogs and surely lost money. Whatever the problems going on with HRC, whether political, lack of challenge of the dog work, titles, clubs not able to make money because of HRC charges, Grand judging or whatever (been told all of these), I hope they fix their issues. Everyone going to one venue is hurting all 3. 

Why are people not running HRC? I am always told it is more fun so why are so many moving to AKC?


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

With less people getting into and enjoying actual hunting (for many reasons including access to land, less birds to shoot, rising costs, etc) many are turning into urban dwellers and title hunters who send their dogs off to pros so that they can obtain titles for breeding. The days of normal folks who enjoy training and hunting with their canine companion is diminishing in my opinion. Still lots out there but getting less and less all the time.


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

Wow, that's it. Hunting isn't what it used to be so people are dropping HRC and now are running AKC?


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

I started the dog games with HRC then had to switch to AKC when I moved out west. No HRC clubs near enough. Then when I moved back east three years ago I was chasing the MN so even though there were some HRC clubs around I stuck with AKC. Was also trying my hand at the FT game, another reason to stay in AKC. The closest club was AKC also and had some good folks in it so I will still play in the AKC HT game. I thought about trying to get a HRCH title on my MH dog but had not pursued it until I began having trouble getting into AKC tests. This spring I began to work on the HRCH title mainly because of the problems getting into AKC tests. I will still run both and probably remain a member of both but getting back into HRC just gives me more options. We ran our first HRC test last weekend and it was great. I enjoy both. Just have to remember the differences in how they do things at each. I did get confused at the HRC test when I was on the line. Had forgotten all the mechanics on the line with using the gun and some differences in the rules.


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