# More prestigious?



## h20fowler (Apr 12, 2012)

Just curious as to which is more prestigious/highly thought of, a HT dog with Master National title or a FT dog with a FC title? Thanks


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

FC - Hands down!


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## Glenn Norton (Oct 23, 2011)

Ditto, Ditto


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Totally different. Cannot compare the two.

Janet


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## jonathon27 (Feb 12, 2012)

How about a Master National dog vs. a QAA dog?


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

jonathon27 said:


> How about a Master National dog vs. a QAA dog?


I believe I'd want the QAA


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

There are somewhere around 60 FCs titled across the country PER YEAR.

This is from a total entry in Open All Age stakes, per year of, somewhere around 15,000.

Very rough figures, and I can't give you numbers for MH entries vs. MNH finishers, but you can do the math and you won't have much doubt as to the answer to your question.

JS


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

jonathon27 said:


> How about a Master National dog vs. a QAA dog?


I have a dog that won a Qual (her 3rd start i believe) and two more dogs with Qual placements. The female with the win has passed 5 of 5 MH tests, 6 of 8 HRC Finished tests, and 2 of 2 HRC Upland tests. The 2012 Master National is just a few hours drive from my house. I didn't even try to qualify for the MN. So the QAA designation is more desirable for me.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

You can't really compare the two, since hunt tests, even the MN, were set up to test dogs to a standard whereas an FC has to be better than all the other dogs (including already titled FCs and AFCs) for at least one trial, and better than almost all the other dogs on multiple trials. So if by prestigious you mean harder to achieve, FC for sure. A dog can earn enough passes to attend and pass the MN by doing work just marginally above a standard. As far as QAA vs MH, depends on how the dog earned that QAA designation. A first or second place at a 6 or 8-dog Q that's been dumbed down to keep the dogs playing for more than one series might not be able to pass a MH test, much less 5, whereas a dog that earned a ribbon in a 70-dog all age stake is probably a pretty nice dog.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Put aside the normal discussions , some HT tests dogs have had the talent and maybe could have become a FC given the training, etc.
The "most average FC in the country" trumps the HT titled dog and/or Master National finalist and so does (maybe more so) the average AFC too. As far as QAA dogs a Judges Award of Merit in a 70 dog all-age stake will make a QAA dog too . Perhaps the only difference between placing in the trial was the dog handled maybe in the last series! Been on all three sides of the fence AKC MH, HRCH and FC/AFC
and it's all about the training and the talent of the dog. AS J.S. indicated the statistics would validate the above.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Whichever one was trained by an Amateur.


Home cooking regards

Bubba


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

h20fowler said:


> Just curious as to which is more prestigious/highly thought of, a HT dog with Master National title or a FT dog with a FC title? Thanks


FC, for sure. And don't forget the AFC title. Either title requires a win plus additional placements to earn points (10 pts. needed for the FC and 15 pts. needed for the Amateur). Competition is fierce in the Open and also in the Amateur. An FC/AFC is the creme de la creme.

A Master National title can be obtained by an MH passing one master national. It is certainly a desirable and very worthwhile accomplishment, but can't be compared to obtaining an FC or an AFC title. 

Helen


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

helencalif said:


> FC, for sure. And don't forget the AFC title. Either title requires a win plus additional placements to earn points (10 pts. needed for the FC and 15 pts. needed for the Amateur). Competition is fierce in the Open and also in the Amateur. An FC/AFC is the creme de la creme.
> 
> A Master National title can be obtained by an MH passing one master national. It is certainly a desirable and very worthwhile accomplishment, but can't be compared to obtaining an FC or an AFC title.
> 
> Helen



Ummmmmm.......... *AKC Master National Hunter Title (MNH)

**The American Kennel Club has approved a new MNH title for retrievers. The MNH, which stands for Master National Hunter, title will be in addition to the dog’s MH title.

The title is given to any dog that successfully completes three Master Nationals, which is equivalent to the Master National Retriever Clubs’ (MNRC's) Hall of Fame designation. When the MNH is earned, it will go on the dog's pedigree.

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder regards

Bubba*


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

What's a hunt test?


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Bubba said:


> Ummmmmm.......... *AKC Master National Hunter Title (MNH)
> 
> **The American Kennel Club has approved a new MNH title for retrievers. The MNH, which stands for Master National Hunter, title will be in addition to the dog’s MH title.
> 
> ...


Sorry Bubba, It ain't even close, passing and winning are two different things.
No offense, but beauty is in the eye of the Blue ribbon holder.

Gregg Leonard


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

golfandhunter said:


> Sorry Bubba, It ain't even close, passing and winning are two different things.
> No offense, but beauty is in the eye of the Blue ribbon holder.
> 
> Gregg Leonard


gregg,
i don't want to speak for bubba but i think his statement was made to advise helen that the mnh title requires a set of three of those little plates. she posted that you only need one for the title.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Sorry Bubba, Hey Roseberry, Quit correcting me.LOL

Gregg


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## Jim Spagna (Apr 21, 2008)

I think the MOST prestigious is the retriever with a dead mallard in it's mouth!


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

h20fowler said:


> Just curious as to which is more prestigious/highly thought of, a HT dog with Master National title or a FT dog with a FC title? Thanks


You are trying to compare apples to oranges here. You will get a wide range of answers and probably start a fight or two. The FT group will make it sound like any old crap eater can go out and get a MNH behind its name and not a single ht dog could ever become an FC. The HT group will claim that their dog could get an FC if they trained for it even though they never ran a FT. Those that know the reality of it will just follow this thread and have a good laugh.

It takes a talanted, well trained dog to pass six MH test in twelve months. (unless you have time and money to run 20 to get 6) If 50% pass rate is normal at MN then going just by the numbers you would have to qualify for and run 6 to get your 3 passes. If you run your first at 2 years old you have a nice dog. Once again going by the numbers 6 years later you have a MNH dog. Thats an 8 year project. If you have a REALLY nice dog and all goes in your favor you might get it dine with a 5 or 6 year old dog. Passing a MN requires 6 days of exceptional work. Just like in a field trial you will get some breaks good or bad. Weather, light conditions bad wind rain ect.

To get an FC you have to win an open and gain a total of 10 points. (I think the point total is right) The field trial test are are CRAZY hard. They have to be to see wich dog is best. The dogs and the training are just that good. I dont know the numbers or how to prsent the odds of titling a dog as FC. I do know a lot more dogs never title or get washed out than get titled.

Bottom line is what do you enjoy more and where do you want to put your time money and effort. I enjoy both games and respect the dog that do well in both. I would suggest you go watch both and gain a personal understanding rather than listen to all the crap thats about to show up here.

This threads been done before reguards.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I wonder how many washed out FT dogs go on to become MH or MNH titled dogs....

If you hack at the HT game long enough you will get the titles, the same cant be said for FC or AFC.


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## h20fowler (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks for all of the information.


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## Elliott Labradors (May 19, 2009)

I guess either would be pretty nice......probably depends on who you ask.

Which of these vehicles do you like best? 
























Red neck philosiphyen,

W.
.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Elliott Labradors said:


> I guess either would be pretty nice......probably depends on who you ask.
> 
> Which of these vehicles do you like best?
> 
> ...


Ah cool, a vehicular analogy.
One I already have, the other I am working towards knowing that it will take a lot more time, money, and work to get.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

To each his own I guess. I am thrilled with a dog with advanced titles. I think we all know of dogs out there that have never received a MH or FC because of lack of funding or time. I certainly couldn't afford to attain a FC as I don't have the time, money or want to send my dog with a field trainer full time. I enjoy my dogs company too much and want to compete with multiple dogs.

Though FC/AFC shows dogs have beat out others to win that title, MH can still show biddability and willingness to work. For me, either or in the pedigree when choosing a dog to purchase or breed to. I certainly wouldn't discount one or the other, both require lots of time. I know I've seen FC/AFC dogs have problems with Master tests, I'm sure it's the other way around too.

Bubba's comments on amateur status is right on. I am really impressed by someone who does it themselves, especially if it's their first dog.

I want a good dog that has work ethic and is biddable, yet can live with me. This is really similar to the field vs. show thread. We all have our own goals.

I'm just glad I have the time, money and health to do what I do with the dogs and it gives me the opportunity to spend quality time with my husband!

Sue Puff


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Since I have dogs with FC, AFC & MH titles - and I enjoy both games, I'll just offer an opinion based upon my experience. The FC & AFC titles are much more difficult & financially expensive to obtain, in my opinion. I believe that a titled & routinely competitive FT dog is exposed to much more demanding water work (long swims to memory birds) and that work is what separates consistently good FT dogs from good hunting test dogs and also separates titled FT dogs from othewise good FT dogs, in general. I cannot say with the same objectivity that opinion makes all FC or AFC dogs capable of consistently acceptable work running AKC hunting tests or HRC hunt tests which would result in an MNH title or GHRCH without a major difference in training (many FT dogs wouldn't sit still for a steady diet of close birds without some extended training on close birds). But that wasn't the question & should not be the implication of those that answer. The games are different & a comparison of the dogs that are successful at each game is an apples and oranges thing. But I will add an observation, if hunt test trainers would not get in such a hurry to obtain a MH title and would instead train their dogs more along FT methods for the first 2 yrs of training, their dogs would be much more versatile and capable of much of the work seen in the FT game. Point is, it is much easier to cross train a FT dog to sit for close birds, walk-ups etc, than it is to get that 2 yr old+ HT dog trained on marks under 200 yds to come to the line and then find & watch that long mark to be retired (& then retrieve it successfully) at 300-450 yds. And it would be much easier to get that HT dog to make that 250 yd+ cross-wind swim to a long retired memeory bird if that dog is routinely exposed to that type of water mark from the time the dog is 12-18 mos old.

The two issues, IMO, that really make the FC/AC more prestigious are the win requirement against all competitors and the difficulty & length of the water marks. Lots of good dogs in both sports & many could be successful in either venue if the training had been done with both games in mind from the time transition training was done. But that training would also reveal whether the dog could consistently compete & win an open.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Granddaddy; x2 probably the best quote-incite I've ever read on the subject of HT vs. FT dogs and titles. After all, in the end there all just dogs . Respect to both fields, very refreshing.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I like to purchase puppies with numerous FC's, AFC's, etc. in their pedigree. However, I train for and run hunt tests. I do not have the resources, the time, the money, or the desire to run field trials. I'm just an "average Joe" and I like to experience the thrill of victory more than the agony of defeat. To me, passing a hunt test is " the thrill of victory". I did run a derby ONCE. Probably the largest gallery to watch any one stake at the field trial. Numerous experienced field trialers were on their phones saying things such as "you HAVE GOT TO GET OVER HERE we have two new guys gonna run the derby" or "so you guys are new to derbys?" or "hey don't leave, these guys are gonna run in a minute".

My run was short. I placed my dog on lead, gathered up what was left of my pride and returned home vowing to never place myself in that position again.

So to answer your question. I guess as far as the majority goes, FC is the title "with the most weight". However, at my house the HRCH titled dog is MY FC equivalent. 

Lonster


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

roseberry said:


> gregg,
> i don't want to speak for bubba but i think his statement was made to advise helen that the mnh title requires a set of three of those little plates. she posted that you only need one for the title.


Helen miss-spoke. Her head was not 100%. I should have said 3 master national passes. Been a long time since we were running hunt tests; the MNH title came into being after we left the HT game. 

Helen


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

After reading down to here, something crosses my mind. It takes 15(75 series) Master passes and 3 full weeks(over 3 yrs, cuz there's not but one a year) of MNH passes vs 1 win(4/5 series) and a couple(8-10 series) placements. Its really not that much different to me. I realize that the individual marks maybe harder/easier at times. MNH Rule excerpt: The Master National Hunting Test shall strive to achieve a level of testing equal to twice normal weekend Master level test. I also know it takes a HELL of a dog normally to win at a FT and flukes happen there too. Far as being able to "run a bunch of tests and title", it takes way more consistancy to get a MNH than only passing 1 out of 3 tests. That would mean you had to run 15 MH tests just to qual for MNH in ONE YEAR! Who the heck would/could do that? Stick a MNH in my pedigree and see how big I smile


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> After reading down to here, something crosses my mind. It takes 15(75 series) Master passes and 3 full weeks(over 3 yrs, cuz there's not but one a year) of MNH passes vs 1 win(4/5 series) and a couple(8-10 series) placements. Its really not that much different to me. I realize that the individual marks maybe harder/easier at times. MNH Rule excerpt: The Master National Hunting Test shall strive to achieve a level of testing equal to twice normal weekend Master level test. I also know it takes a HELL of a dog normally to win at a FT and flukes happen there too. Far as being able to "run a bunch of tests and title", it takes way more consistancy to get a MNH than only passing 1 out of 3 tests. That would mean you had to run 15 MH tests just to qual for MNH in ONE YEAR! Who the heck would/could do that? Stick a MNH in my pedigree and see how big I smile



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????
Oh Boy, you have no clue at all how difficult Field Trials are. Yes, to title you just need a win and a few placements. The thing is that very good dogs rarely finish 25% of the trials they run plus they probably receive a placement in 10% of those. This is an estimation but very close.

I'll use my AFC as an actual example of an above average field trail dog, not the top of the crop but no slouch either. Oh by they way she never did get her FC title because of no win but she got close with 3 Seconds.
Decent dog, my first one, I learned on the fly running her at trials, pro trained, they ran her about half the time, I ran her the rest.
She squeaked out her title with a win just before retirement at 8 years old due to injuries. She actually got her win after being partly paralyzed. The day she won an Amateur she beat dogs like NFC Grady.
OK, Lifetime she ran:
130 All-Age Stakes (ran a total of about 375 series)
Dropped at some point 55% of the time
Finished 45% of the time
Placed 20% of the time
Jammed 25% of the time
Before she got her win she had accumulated 33 1/2 all-age points. 23 of those with me handling. Plus a few Canadian points and she was a Finalist in the '07 Canadian National.
Even with all of that including 8 second places she was nothing more than a QAA dog without a Win and that's not even a title.

Yea, a couple of Series is all it takes.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Duckquilizer said:


> After reading down to here, something crosses my mind. *It takes 15(75 series) Master passes* and 3 full weeks(over 3 yrs, cuz there's not but one a year) of MNH passes vs 1 win(4/5 series) and a couple(8-10 series) placements. Its really not that much different to me. I realize that the individual marks maybe harder/easier at times. MNH Rule excerpt: The Master National Hunting Test shall strive to achieve a level of testing equal to twice normal weekend Master level test. I also know it takes a HELL of a dog normally to win at a FT and flukes happen there too. Far as being able to "run a bunch of tests and title", it takes way more consistancy to get a MNH than only passing 1 out of 3 tests. That would mean you had to run 15 MH tests just to qual for MNH in ONE YEAR! Who the heck would/could do that? Stick a MNH in my pedigree and see how big I smile



You know there's only 3 series in a master test right? Maybe your math skills are lacking.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Breck said:


> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????
> Oh Boy, you have no clue at all how difficult Field Trials are. Yes, to title you just need a win and a few placements. The thing is that very good dogs rarely finish 25% of the trials they run plus they probably receive a placement in 10% of those. This is an estimation but very close.
> 
> I'll use my AFC as an actual example of an above average field trail dog, not the top of the crop but no slouch either. Oh by they way she never did get her FC title because of no win but she got close with 3 Seconds.
> ...





Duckquilizer said:


> After reading down to here, something crosses my mind. It takes 15(75 series) Master passes and 3 full weeks(over 3 yrs, cuz there's not but one a year) of MNH passes vs 1 win(4/5 series) and a couple(8-10 series) placements. Its really not that much different to me. I realize that the individual marks maybe harder/easier at times. MNH Rule excerpt: The Master National Hunting Test shall strive to achieve a level of testing equal to twice normal weekend Master level test.* I also know it takes a HELL of a dog normally to win at a FT and flukes happen there too.* Far as being able to "run a bunch of tests and title", it takes way more consistancy to get a MNH than only passing 1 out of 3 tests. That would mean you had to run 15 MH tests just to qual for MNH in ONE YEAR! Who the heck would/could do that? Stick a MNH in my pedigree and see how big I smile


That was what the bolded part for. I was just saying I don't hold FC to a heavenly standard above MNH. Could a MNH beat an FC hands down? No...well...maybe...depends...


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

savage25xtreme said:


> You know there's only 3 series in a master test right? Maybe your math skills are lacking.



9. CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6. Master Hunting Test. Dogs shall be tested in a minimum of five hunting situations as follows: multiple land marks, multiple water marks, multiple marks on water and land, a land blind and a water blind (at least one that shall be a double blind in any combination). *There shall be at least three series*. At least one of the series shall include a walk-up. Diversion birds and/or diversion shots such as described in Chapter 3, Section 24, must be used at least once. In Master tests, in at least two multiple marking situations the dog’s marking/memory will be tested with at least three (3) falls, before the dogs is sent to retrieve. During a double set of marks (2 falls) Master judges shall include additional elements of testing i.e. walkup, diversion bird, diversion shot, blind/s etc. in testing the dog’s abilities.
This change increases the testing requirements for Master dogs by specifying that they shall complete two triple marks (previously one) and that an additional testing element shall be included during a double mark.

Yes Sir I know the rules...Sorry for a few extra "EASY" passes... I was not turning this to a "Us vs Them" argument. Just saying I didn't feel like there was a MONSTEROUS difference in the worlds. I agree FT winning is a lot harder than just "passing". Stick a MNH in my pedigree and see how big I smile  P.S. It would only nicely compliment all the FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC, CNFC, and CAFC's already in 5 generation ped...


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I'll tell you what. I see you have a 17 month old SHR/JR right? Can it mark? Want to find out? Dog is perfect age for Derby, the marking proving ground.
Well, Middle TN field trial Derby closes it's entries next Tuesday. Dave Kress, a really nice fair judge who also runs hunting tests is one of the judges. Couldn't be better for you. During the next month or so several field trials are scheduled in your back yard. No excuse not to enter them and get your feet wet. 
Get on EE and enter your dog in the Middle TN Derby, then enter Northeast TN, Bluegrass or Chattanooga the next week, next Alabama, then Lincoln and then Memphis. That's 5 Derbies to run this fall.
For each Derby you finish with a Placement I will personally pay your entry fee. (even though I'm unemployed) 
How about it?


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Breck said:


> I'll tell you what. I see you have a 17 month old SHR/JR right? Can it mark? Want to find out? Dog is perfect age for Derby, the marking proving ground.
> Well, Middle TN field trial Derby closes it's entries next Tuesday. Dave Kress, a really nice fair judge who also runs hunting tests is one of the judges. Couldn't be better for you. During the next month or so several field trials are scheduled in your back yard. No excuse not to enter them and get your feet wet.
> Get on EE and enter your dog in the Middle TN Derby, then enter Northeast TN, Bluegrass or Chattanooga the next week, next Alabama, then Lincoln and then Memphis. That's 5 Derbies to run this fall.
> For each Derby you finish with a Placement I will personally pay your entry fee. (even though I'm unemployed)
> How about it?


Did you check fhe entries? https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=5536 I never said I was against them and even want to give it a try. I don't recall saying I only trained to min HT standards. (BTW, she's one pass from HR and I start her SH in a few weeks too)  Now do I think she's the best that's ever graced the field or even mediocre...nope, she's handicaped by me training and handling her. P.S. I'm not paying you if I go out in the 1st series!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

All righty then, there you go, have at it and good luck! Enter a few more as well.
Stick with white coat guns in training between now and then.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Amen Breck and others. I had two dogs that never got thier AFC or FC title but one had a Amateur Win and the other three seconds.
The first got a JAM in a open and became a QAA dog (just a 60 dog Open not a "watered down Qual" and the second dog won two back to back Quals as a two year old (one was 54 dogs) but was "just a "QAA" dog. The first also was a MH and the other had four Master Passes. FC/AFC's came along and we were happy, but, the other two were heart breakers! Oh! they were amateur trained while thier trainer worked a full-time real job as a cop. Lets see, used up all my vacation time, worked a sometimes part-time job and some OT. 
I can remember running FC/AFC Mioak's Criquetpas and sometimes going out in the first series after driving hours to get to the trial. If we finished 1/3 we were happy! Sometimes it was less for the year. Just a few thoughts to give some insight into the field trial game not to make other titles or venues of less inportance, FT's are a tough, tough game, even with a good dog.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Lonster said:


> I like to purchase puppies with numerous FC's, AFC's, etc. in their pedigree. However, I train for and run hunt tests. I do not have the resources, the time, the money, or the desire to run field trials. I'm just an "average Joe" and I like to experience the thrill of victory more than the agony of defeat. To me, passing a hunt test is " the thrill of victory". I did run a derby ONCE. Probably the largest gallery to watch any one stake at the field trial. Numerous experienced field trialers were on their phones saying things such as "you HAVE GOT TO GET OVER HERE we have two new guys gonna run the derby" or "so you guys are new to derbys?" or "hey don't leave, these guys are gonna run in a minute".
> 
> My run was short. I placed my dog on lead, gathered up what was left of my pride and returned home vowing to never place myself in that position again.
> 
> ...


I have a hard time believing "anyone" much less "Experienced field trialers" were calling their buddies to come over to see someone new run a derby for the first time. Never, never have I heard of this ever happening. No one there cared if you picked up or had to get a rope to corral your dog. Except you. Trust me EVERYONE running trials has experienced the "agony of defeat" as you called it.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

rboudet said:


> I have a hard time believing "anyone" much less "Experienced field trialers" were calling their buddies to come over to see someone new run a derby for the first time. Never, never have I heard of this ever happening. No one there cared if you picked up or had to get a rope to corral your dog. Except you. Trust me EVERYONE running trials has experienced the "agony of defeat" as you called it.


I agree wholeheartedly, only ran 2 derbies with my older dog. I felt welcome and as if everyone was cheering me on. I honestly think the judges felt bad that they could carry me to the next series.

I have a 2 and a half year old dog with a couple master passes that doesn't have a prayer of ever making an AA dog. If I wanted to mess with it for the next 5 years he could make a MNH, IMHO.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

rboudet said:


> I have a hard time believing "anyone" much less "Experienced field trialers" were calling their buddies to come over to see someone new run a derby for the first time. Never, never have I heard of this ever happening. No one there cared if you picked up or had to get a rope to corral your dog. Except you. Trust me EVERYONE running trials has experienced the "agony of defeat" as you called it.


I've seen it happen when a newbie comes out and smashes a Qual, but only for the last series . Actually I'd say that FT peeps watch and actually pay attention to more dogs than most HT peeps, makes since though as your competing got to know what everyone else is up to 

And MH do have 5 series, sometimes more, they put the Blinds in with the marks, a single blind can be an entire series for an FT, which is why you've got to pay attention when someone tells you I made it to the 3rd series in a trial, that can mean a variety of things but oftentimes, it means I ran a set of marks and a blind, basically equivalent to a skill set you'd see in 1 HT series.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I've seen it happen when a newbie comes out and smashes a Qual, but only for the last series . Actually I'd say that FT peeps watch and actually pay attention to more dogs than most HT peeps, makes since though as your competing got to know what everyone else is up to


Really? Where did this happen? I dont believe this either. SO people were concerned that someone new to field trials was doing well in a Q?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Isn't this whole argument like asking , Who will kick your azzz more? a black belt in karate or a black belt in judo ?



the answer : Chuck Norris would kick both their butts at the same time while giving JC Van Damme a headlock and giving him a wedgie


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

BonMallari said:


> Isn't this whole argument like asking , Who will kick your azzz more? a black belt in karate or a black belt in judo ?
> 
> 
> 
> the answer : Chuck Norris would kick both their butts at the same time while giving JC Van Damme a headlock and giving him a wedgie


Nicely put...


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> Isn't this whole argument like asking , Who will kick your azzz more? a black belt in karate or a black belt in judo ?
> 
> 
> 
> the answer : Chuck Norris would kick both their butts at the same time while giving JC Van Damme a headlock and giving him a wedgie


While Chuck Norris has more prestige, I think any decent MMA fighter would use his head as a toilet bowl brush, then put him in an armbar and make him cry like a little girl.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

JS said:


> There are somewhere around 60 FCs titled across the country PER YEAR.
> 
> This is from a total entry in Open All Age stakes, per year of, somewhere around 15,000.
> 
> ...


Here is something toward that from 2011: 

735 dogs qualified to run MNH(5 MH passes to qual)
579 Entered
258 passed

Just under 50% that entered actually passed one year of a required 3 years... I would like to see how many of those that pass one year, actually finish thier MNH.

Just info that I could find, I can't say its totally accurate, but close I'd say.


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## Meleagris1 (Dec 10, 2010)

FC, without a doubt in my mind, for any number of reasons well articulated in this thread.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> a single blind can be an entire series for an FT, which is why you've got to pay attention when someone tells you I made it to the 3rd series in a trial, that can mean a variety of things but oftentimes, it means I ran a set of marks and a blind, basically equivalent to a skill set you'd see in 1 HT series.


Not even close. Even a Q blind is going to be tougher and judged much more tightly than a MH blind. An AA land blind is orders of magnitude more difficult than a HT land blind. A dog that makes it to the water in a AA stake has demonstrated much more skill than the first series of a HT, even if it was just three marks and a blind to get there in each.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I've seen it happen when a newbie comes out and smashes a Qual, but only for the last series . Actually I'd say that FT peeps watch and actually pay attention to more dogs than most HT peeps, makes since though as your competing got to know what everyone else is up to
> 
> And MH do have 5 series, sometimes more, they put the Blinds in with the marks, a single blind can be an entire series for an FT, which is why you've got to pay attention when someone tells you I made it to the 3rd series in a trial, that can mean a variety of things but oftentimes, *it means I ran a set of marks and a blind, basically equivalent to a skill set you'd see in 1 HT series*.


OMG. Do you even realize what you are saying here? What an oversimplification. Getting to the 3rd series of an AA stake takes ALOT more than the skillset involved in a HT series. It may have just involved "a set of marks and a blind" but holy moly is there more to it than that. Unreal.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but... ...one of the biggest differences when running a HT vs a FT is that you don't have to be better than anyone else. Meet or exceed the standard-the dogs that pass aren't all on the same level, but they did the work that day and qualify for a ribbon. I am NOT knocking HTs, but in a FT the numbers are going to be whittled down in almost every series. You can have brilliant marks and land blind and a bobble on the water blind is going to send you packing. The setups are big and there is only so much time, so you had better bring your A game. Shame on the HT judge who eliminates dogs to save time, but in a FT they are looking for the dog who still has a chance to win and time in the water for him to prove it.

M


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

h20fowler said:


> Just curious as to which is more prestigious/highly thought of, a HT dog with *Master National *title or a FT dog with a FC title? Thanks





John Daniels said:


> 700+ dogs earned a MH title in 2011. 67 earned their FC.


Of those, how many actually Master National Titled? That was the OP's direction.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

I LOVE these type threads. Regardless of join date or number of posts, you easily learn who is experienced, who is knowledgable, and who is both. The counter is you also learn who is neither! 

BTW, it takes 6 passes each qualifying period to qualify for the MN (not the MNH, that is a title, not an event).


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

First of all you can't even compare the field work. There are great AM's out there that have trained and ran their own dogs in All Age stakes for 25+ years and still haven't obtained an FC or AFC title. Hunt Tests were originally created for owners and handlers that couldn't run against FT pros and serious AM's. Sorry if that hurt some of your feelings. I enjoy running and training for both.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

John Daniels said:


> The OP wasnt asking about numbers. I just posted those numbers in addition to what you shared. While its hard to make a fair comparison betwern a FC and a MNH its fairly easy for most people to choose which is more prestigious. It surely takes a more talented dog to compete in AA and to earn a FC or AFC. Their are alot of MH/GRHRCH and probably MNH dogs that were field trial washouts.


Great point. Several HT pros are fully stocked with FT washouts at the Master National every year. Most FT washouts are washed out at a Master level.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Donald Flanagan said:


> While Chuck Norris has more prestige, I think any decent MMA fighter would use his head as a toilet bowl brush, then put him in an armbar and make him cry like a little girl.


You do realize that Chuck Norris was a SIX TIME UNDEFEATED middle weight World Champion Karate Champion...

and as Walker, Texas Ranger, always caught and beat up the bad guys in less than an hour with commercial breaks...

Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid of the dark, but the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris

When you open a can of whoop-ass, Chuck Norris jumps out.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

The best thing I have seen here is that you are really comparing apples to oranges when you are trying to compare FT and HT work, even at the Master National level. Let me quickly say that I would be proud to own or hunt over either one.

I took the owner of a dog who has this year passed the HRC Grand and who will be competing in the AKC Master National this fall at the Cattle Ranch to a training day with a good FT pro while my dog was there. His eyes bulged out at the AA setup the FT dogs were running. Could his dog have successfully done it? Possibly; he's obviously a fine dog. But he had never seen anything like the distance marks in that setup in combination with the factors of wind and bird placement.

If you take an equally skilled judge at using factors and bird placement to influence the dogs, would you rather run 100-yard marks or 400-yard marks?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> You do realize that Chuck Norris was a SIX TIME UNDEFEATED middle weight World Champion Karate Champion...
> 
> and as Walker, Texas Ranger, always caught and beat up the bad guys in less than an hour with commercial breaks...
> 
> ...


LMAO smack down funny.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

RF2 said:


> I LOVE these type threads. Regardless of join date or number of posts, you easily learn who is experienced, who is knowledgable, and who is both. The counter is you also learn who is neither!
> 
> BTW, it takes 6 passes each qualifying period to qualify for the MN (not the MNH, that is a title, not an event).


I heard a rumor that you only need 4 if you Qualified (passed) the prior yar MN. Any truth to that?

Is so...
6 to qualify for MN #1
pass MN #1
4 to qualify for MN #2
pass MN #2
4 to Qualify for MN #3
pass MN #3

Title MNH 

Takes a minimum of 14 MH test passes + 3 MN passes

I would prefer to obtain the FC, it is more prestigous in my eye.

Someone wrote in an earlier post that they took a dog to the derby and had their a** handed to them.

I took three to my first derby and had mine handed to me. Difference is, I took my three back 6 more times and got one JAM. Then to the Quals were I've had a few JAMS, a win, and a couple of placements. Now running AA stakes and have yet to get to the water blind. But I'm not going to give up trying so I can get a MH ribbon on Sunday (although I will finish out the MH titles that I started between aging out of the derby and starting Quals).

A long time FTer told me that you have to consider getting out of the first series in a big AA stake a victory. If you don't, the FT game will crush you. When you do get called back and you look at some of the big name dogs that didn't, you do get a sense of accomplishment. That, right there is what makes the FC title more prestigous in my eyes.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Duckquilizer said:


> Here is something toward that from 2011:
> 
> 735 dogs qualified to run MNH(5 MH passes to qual)
> 579 Entered
> ...





John Daniels said:


> 700+ dogs earned a MH title in 2011. 67 earned their FC.





Duckquilizer said:


> Of those, how many actually Master National Titled? That was the OP's direction.





John Daniels said:


> The OP wasnt asking about numbers. I just posted those numbers in addition to what you shared. While its hard to make a fair comparison betwern a FC and a MNH its fairly easy for most people to choose which is more prestigious. It surely takes a more talented dog to compete in AA and to earn a FC or AFC. Their are alot of MH/GRHRCH and probably MNH dogs that were field trial washouts.


John, not sure you read the entire thread... I agree that FC is far more difficult to obtain. What I was doing with the numbers was actually putting some substance to it. You gave a 700+ to 67 dog comparison. I was looking for how many actually titled MNH in 2011 vs that 67. Only 258 passed the MN, not all of those are MNH yet... That would be a better reflection, even though its still FT on top.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

captainjack said:


> I heard a rumor that you only need 4 if you Qualified (passed) the prior yar MN. Any truth to that?
> 
> Is so...
> 6 to qualify for MN #1
> ...


Yes sir, I just read that...


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Are there any MNH Poodles?


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

On average, successful FT dogs are trained 5 days per week, all year long. On average, HT dogs are trained less. There is little tolerence for error in a trial. A gorilla hunt or a handle on one mark is usually cause for elimination. In a HT often times a couple of handles gets a ribbon. The distances involved add an exponential degree of difficulty. In a trial, missing a keyhole or point by a couple of feet at 250yds is usually grounds for elimination. In a test, the blinds are less than 100 yds or so and judges are generally not that stringent about the exact line to bird. Judges are able to put a lot more factors in a quarter mile radius than a 100 yd radius.

Solid experience MH dog will pass most tests entered. It is not uncommon for a solid experienced FC not make it past the first series. Over the years, I have judged FC or AFC dogs many times at the Master Level. The only one that did not pass was because of breaking, not because of marking or handling (although one FC Golden tried the judges' patience by parading his bird through the gallery).

I believe the level of achievement to obtain an FC is well above that required to achieve the Master National title.

Russ


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

WBF said:


> Are there any MNH Poodles?


are there any fc poodles?

:-?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

John Daniels said:


> I dont believe poodles are eligible to compete in field trials.



I did notice there is a Boykin signed up to compete in the Master National this year. Would be fun to see one run an FT.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I knew a guy who had a friend who had a pretty nice poodle...He always said if he had the time and the money and the knowledge and if poodles were allowed to compete in Field Trials, he would have had a pretty good chance of having an FC poodle.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

John Lash said:


> I knew a guy who had a friend who had a pretty nice poodle...He always said if he had the time and the money and the knowledge and if poodles were allowed to compete in Field Trials, he would have had a pretty good chance of having an FC poodle.


John I think I know that guy, well one of those guys. He had a friend that knew the guy with the friend and the friend new a guy with a Rhodesian Ridgeback that with a little tweaking could be a MH with no problem.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think we all know that guy, some of us might even be that guy...


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Jhenion said:


> I did notice there is a Boykin signed up to compete in the Master National this year. Would be fun to see one run an FT.


one of my training buds owns one of the mn qualified boykins. imho his dog is the best boykin in the world.......literally.....in the world! and it is fun to see him run!


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## Rick Vaughan (Sep 4, 2012)

Titles are for the human ego...my girls have no idea I have framed titles and have hung ribbons in the house. Titles or promise of titles do not make my dogs run or work any harder. Any handler and dog that have trained hard for any event have my respect...but the most important "measuring tool" is to ask yourself, "did you have a good time training, running a HT or FT and are you looking forward to spending more time working and training with your trusted companion"? Ladies and Gentlemen, these are dogs who retrieve birds to please handlers and the desire is bred into the dog...they don't run for titles, only the handler....I hope everyone has as much fun spending time training and making a personal choice of competitions to show off your hard work as I do and so many of my friends...just my 2 cents on this subject.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

I can't believe this site is free. :roll:

JS


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

rboudet said:


> I have a hard time believing "anyone" much less "Experienced field trialers" were calling their buddies to come over to see someone new run a derby for the first time. Never, never have I heard of this ever happening. No one there cared if you picked up or had to get a rope to corral your dog. Except you. Trust me EVERYONE running trials has experienced the "agony of defeat" as you called it.


Well, Doubting Thomas, my name is Lonnie Spann, the derby was 4 years ago here in Alabama at The Cattle Ranch. I think it was the Black Warrior Retriever Club that hosted the event (maybe you could look it up on EE?) I'm sure that if you are a serious FTer then you would probably know some of the individuals that were there and could verify what I am saying. 

I didn't embellish my story and I didn't exaggerate it the least bit. In fact, another member on this board was there and can vouch for me, I won't name him. If he wants to chime in then he can. YES, phone calls, and lots of crowd gathering to watch the two ******** in camo with their HT dogs about to run the derby!

One "experienced field trialer" (I considered her experienced, put a FC on one of her dogs). Don't remember her name, think she was from Canada. She was the one that squatted and peed right behind the gallery!

Lonster


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Mobile, Spring 2008. You were accompanied by fishduck. I wasn't there and I heard about it.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

RF2 said:


> Mobile, Spring 2008. You were accompanied by fishduck. I wasn't there and I heard about it.


You are correct! However you are the one who called him out not me. I was gonna spare him the humiliation all over again

Lonster


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Lonster said:


> Well, Doubting Thomas, my name is Lonnie Spann, the derby was 4 years ago here in Alabama at The Cattle Ranch. I think it was the Black Warrior Retriever Club that hosted the event (maybe you could look it up on EE?) I'm sure that if you are a serious FTer then you would probably know some of the individuals that were there and could verify what I am saying.
> 
> I didn't embellish my story and I didn't exaggerate it the least bit. In fact, another member on this board was there and can vouch for me, I won't name him. If he wants to chime in then he can. YES, phone calls, and lots of crowd gathering to watch the two ******** in camo with their HT dogs about to run the derby!
> 
> ...


I may have judged that derby what was the date?
Doubting Thomas, thats funny


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

"I'm sure that if you are a serious FTer then you would probably know some of the individuals that were there and could verify what I am saying."

I did look it up on EE and of the 13 entries 8 of the handlers run or came from hunt test backgrounds. Hell the gallery couldn't have been that big 9 of the 13 dogs were run by pros, who all but I think one had dogs in the open so I know they weren't hanging around the derby. 

You may have gotten a few chuckles from a few if you came in full camo, but how you make it sound I still don't buy it.
I think every derby I ever judged their are several first timers that come from HT, and myself and my co-judged did everything with in the rules to help them be successfull. I think a few of your buds can vouch for that. And there are always a few people that show up in camo, NO one cares. 


But this got way off the OP. What was it again? "Help me name my new puppy"


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

rboudet said:


> "*of the 13 entries 8 of the handlers run or came from hunt test backgrounds*. Hell the gallery couldn't have been that big *9 of the 13 dogs were run by pros"
> 
> 
> *OK rboudet, you have officially confused me.
> ...


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Most of what was posted about my first derby experience is factual.  We gathered we were in trouble while watching the 4th series of the Q, waiting for the derby to start. The gallery was very nice but similiar to a hunt test onlookers were curious about the new faces. When we mentioned we were running the derby the quote was "You do know, you are running against a bunch of pros". From then on we were introduced around and always with the disclaimer "they are running the derby".

Whether the group at the trucks was watching the newcomers or simply sandbagging, I do not know. I do know we were pushed to run early and I made it home in time to eat.

My fondest remembrance of the derby besides the humilty it provided was when a man was busy looking for his four wheeler. He had provided it for use of the stake but was mad because he couldn't find it. Numerous people tried to point it out at the flyer station but it was so far he had trouble seeing it. I was convinced after someone used a rangefinder that my derby days would be short lived.

It took 2 years with some sucess in the Q before I tried again. This time my new dog ran marks that looked like a 4 year old child with a new Etch a Sketch on the judges sheet. Never been to the water in a derby. Have a new pup and it has been four years so I may be due a new dose of humility soon.
Mark Land


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Mark, I can assure you they were sand bagging. Never seen anything like it in my life. The pros generally run when asked to run whether it's first, last, or somewhere in between. Too many amateurs sand bag in the minor stakes. They got to wait until the wind and the light and the birds, etc. are just right or there star pup will not be able to do the test.

Makes me sick. If you draw 1, then man up and run first or stay home.

I ran my first Qual at Snowbird a couple years ago. Judy Rasmussen was judging and a well known Amatuer had dog #1. Test dog ran, Judy called for dog #1 and he wasn't there. They put him on the clock, and put him out when he didn't show. Now that right there is judging!


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

fishduck said:


> Most of what was posted about my first derby experience is factual. We gathered we were in trouble while watching the 4th series of the Q, waiting for the derby to start. The gallery was very nice but similiar to a hunt test onlookers were curious about the new faces. When we mentioned we were running the derby the quote was "You do know, you are running against a bunch of pros". From then on we were introduced around and always with the disclaimer "they are running the derby".
> 
> Whether the group at the trucks was watching the newcomers or simply sandbagging, I do not know. * I do know we were pushed to run early and I made it home in time to eat.*
> My fondest remembrance of the derby besides the humilty it provided was when a man was busy looking for his four wheeler. He had provided it for use of the stake but was mad because he couldn't find it. Numerous people tried to point it out at the flyer station but it was so far he had trouble seeing it. I was convinced after someone used a rangefinder that my derby days would be short lived.
> ...


What did you have for lunch?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

RF2 said:


> What did you have for lunch?


It would have been breakfast but the derby didn't start until the Q finished!


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