# curly tailed labs?



## Raising Cane 09

I have a fully registered BLM dog that has a tail that nearly curls all the way around. This is the first time that I think have ever seen this. Has anyone else had a lab or seen labs that have this? It doesn't matter to me, it is actually pretty funny! He is in the GRHRCH Missy's Cajun Dakota bloodline.


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## captainjack

Raising Cane 09 said:


> I have a fully registered BLM dog that has a tail that nearly curls all the way around. This is the first time that I think have ever seen this. Has anyone else had a lab or seen labs that have this? It doesn't matter to me, it is actually pretty funny! He is in the GRHRCH Missy's Cajun Dakota bloodline.


One of my dogs has a pretty good curve in his tail when he's happy but it doesn't curl.

The AKC says this...
" Tail--The tail is a distinguishing feature of the breed. It should be very thick at the base, gradually tapering toward the tip, of medium length, and extending no longer than to the hock. The tail should be free from feathering and clothed thickly all around with the Labrador’s short, dense coat, thus having that peculiar rounded appearance that has been described as the "otter" tail. The tail should follow the topline in repose or when in motion. It may be carried gaily, but should not curl over the back. Extremely short tails or long thin tails are serious faults. The tail completes the balance of the Labrador by giving it a flowing line from the top of the head to the tip of the tail. Docking or otherwise altering the length or natural carriage of the tail is a disqualification."


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## Cleo Watson

I remember seeing a black NFC who's tail curled over his back so much that I bet he could have been hung from a limb of a tree. He didn't pick up his ducks with his tail. LOL


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## ducknwork

I guess it's safe to say he won't be a pointer?


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## JusticeDog

Ranger Hines, with all of his gazillion points, had a curly tail. His young son "Hook" who just took 2nd in the Amateur and Jammed the open also has "the tail"... 

My Ruckus has a curly tail (chopper x ginna)- when i picked him as a pup, I just said, "Well, it worked for Ranger Hines...


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## Illinois Bob

My pups tail is like that.
I know of a guy with a Patton dog that has a tail that goes all the way around too.








It seems to be straightening as she grows.


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## Howard N

My old dog Tracker had a tail like that. It looked about like a question mark when he was standing up with his tail up. I miss him even now.


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## Illinois Bob

Howard N said:


> My old dog Tracker had a tail like that. It looked about like a question mark when he was standing up with his tail up. I miss him even now.


Hey Howard,I had an old dog named Tracker too.He lived 10 days shy of 16 and we hunted everything together.He was my favorite.Must be something with the name.


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## whitefoot

Illinois Bob said:


> Hey Howard,I had an old dog named Tracker too.He lived 10 days shy of 16 and we hunted everything together.He was my favorite.Must be something with the name.


I've got a 14.5 year old and I pray that I get another year and a half with him. 16 is awesome.


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## Christa McCoy

When I got my CLF from the breeder she had a chocolate dog with what she called a "ribbon tail." It was the only dog produced by those two parents that had it. She kept the dog as a service dog for her disabled husband. I guess its a genetic fluke.


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## JusticeDog

Christa McCoy said:


> I guess its a genetic fluke.


Christa- I prefer to think of it as a sign of great intelligence and marking ability!


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## robertnla

My dog has a curl tail big time. She is out of Cosmo X a Dam from Ram.
These are not show dogs and I wouldn't worry about the tail.


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## Christa McCoy

JusticeDog said:


> Christa- I prefer to think of it as a sign of great intelligence and marking ability!


I know Lauren (the breeder) thought hers was the best dog ever. Very sweet boy!


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## robertnla

Bob That is a very nice looking little girl.


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## Illinois Bob

robertnla said:


> Bob That is a very nice looking little girl.


Thanks. That's my "Little Rough Chic" sporting 14 week old legs on her 11 week old body in the second photo.She is the fastest pup I've ever seen at that age.Either that or I'm getting alot slower at my age.


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## andrewjcanderson

Sorry to revive such an old thread but to the folks in this forum who have had a Labrador with a curly tail, how do you feel about breeding them considering that it is not part of the breed standard? 

I am trying to decide whether or not to breed a really good looking dam who has a curl at the end of her tail.


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## bamajeff

If she has field traits/attributes that would help improve the breed, I would definitely consider doing it. How's her marking ability, style, perseverance, nose, trainability?


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## Matt McKenzie

I prefer breeding labs to look like labs. Head and tail are two of the defining features. Why breed incorrect dogs when highly talented correct dogs are available for breeding stock?


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## bamajeff

I don't think breeding a female that, according to the owner, is really nice looking but has a curl at the end of her tail is that big of a deal. Especially when I see the obese bench bred dogs that couldn't fetch a biscuit. I don't think that's what lab is supposed to look like either.


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## mwk56

But the show dogs were’t born obese : ). And it is not a genetic trait. Super thin tails and question mark tails seem to carry though and show up in the pups. 

Meredith


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## Daren Galloway

Form or Function? In my opinion Form should follow Function.


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## andrewjcanderson

She has a nice blocky head, is very trainable, has is good with our kids and other dogs. That has been my question though Meredith, does or should the question mark tail outweigh all of the good traits? 

I’m wrestling with this a bit and am leaning toward not breeding her, but then i see her enthusiasm on a retrieve...


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## rrwilly

Find a male with strong pedigree that has a staighter tail and use him. When I say strong I mean linebread so he is more apt to throw himself, there is no guarantee when breeding but in theory this method increases your odds.


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## Tobias

No dog is perfect


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## andrewjcanderson

My stud would be out of Tiger Mountain Pointing Labs. 

His dad was Teddy 3xGMPR. I haven’t titled my boy, I’m just a hunter... But he is an extremely talented and good looking dog.


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## Mark Couch

It seems like from your other post this dog is new to you and pretty much unproven. I would think if your plan is to buy a dog to breed you should start with a proven dog, breeding stock should be the best available not just what showed up. If the dog was a FC there would be a reason. If you had owned the dog for a couple years and it was doing some things you thought were awesome there might be a reason, depending on how objective you can be. Look at the puppy classifieds the up front costs of the dog are a factor, but training and maintaining a dog for 10-12 years make the buying of a puppy from unknown stock a big gamble. One grandfather is only 25% of the genetic picture. If you can train her to a higher level in one or more of the hunttest games then the tail would become less of a concern, and she would be validated (somewhat objectively). You are asking about whether a flaw is grounds for disqualification for breeding without a picture of said flaw, but really the question might be does this dog bring enough to the table to be worthy of reproducing? I can say that the next dog I buy what the tail is doing will not be the top item on my list I am looking at. 
Most posters on here have much more retriever history than I do, but I have been around people breeding horses for a long time, when people start breeding if they do not use a good selective plan often the animals they produce are not that good. A couple years ago I had a customer bring a young horse up from Arizona Grandpa had raised this animal, it is not cheap to bring a horse to Alaska from Arizona. The horse went lame at about 4 years old. Temperment wise the horse was really nice, it was only after the young horse went lame that I found out the mother was lame. I am sure grandpa thought he was doing a good thing, too bad he was not more objective of his breeding stock.


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## Tobias

All very good points Mark... there are a ton of lab breedings and many very nice breedings are not selling as quickly as one would expect. 

The tail is the last thing that I would worry about...no dog is perfect (i was referring to the 'pleasing to look at' aspect of 'perfect'...)


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## Matt McKenzie

Maybe it depends on if your plan is to breed Field Trial Retrievers or Labrador Retrievers. There is a breed standard for Labrador Retrievers.
Many of us complain about the awful examples the show community is producing and yet some of the same people are fine with breeding a hook-tail dog with a head like a Dobermann as long as it has the right letters in front of its name. 
The market is flooded with puppies bred by people with good intentions and little knowledge of the breed or of breeding. 
Why add another litter?


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## birddogn_tc

andrewjcanderson said:


> She has a nice blocky head, is very trainable, has is good with our kids and other dogs. That has been my question though Meredith, does or should the question mark tail outweigh all of the good traits?
> 
> I’m wrestling with this a bit and am leaning toward not breeding her, but then i see her enthusiasm on a retrieve...


Just because her tail is curly doesn't mean she should not be bred. However...Just because she is enthusiastic on a retrieve doesn't make her a dog that should be bred. If you just want a puppy from your male dog because of sentimental reasons...that's not always the best reason to breed. Don't mean to be discouraging towards breeding the female, but sounds like there are a lot of unknowns in this case.


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## ErinsEdge

How old is this dog and are you thinking of returning her if you don't want to breed her? Did you get her as an older dog that never hunted only for breeding or for a hunting dog. Why are you so concerned about breeding her now?


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## mjh345

So far is all you've told us about this dog as you like her looks however you also told her that her tail is not standard.
Does she hunt does she have her health clearances does she have any upper-level titles to which we can use to objectively evaluate her Talent level
So that means she's a failure as far as meeting the standard in regards to appearance
Unless she has some upper level titles that would overcome the shortcoming in her looks Department I would say don't breed her.
Also you can claim you're going to breed her to a pointing lab are you aware that labs are not bred for pointing they are bred to be flushing dogs?
From what you've told us I would say this is not a breeding candidate that would better the labrador breed particularly being bred to a dog who claims to be a "pointing lab"


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## Daren Galloway

mjh345 said:


> Also you can claim you're going to breed her to a pointing lab are you aware that labs are not bred for pointing they are bred to be flushing dogs?
> From what you've told us I would say this is not a breeding candidate that would better the labrador breed particularly being bred to a dog who claims to be a "pointing lab"


I'm glad you said it!


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## andrewjcanderson

Oh for Petes sake. 

I’m not here to debate the merits or demerits of pointing labs. My dog Tanker was sired by a MH and 3x GMPR. He is the best dog I have ever hunted over. Honestly 10 years ago that debate bucket might have held more water but anybody bringing it up now is IMO sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to the fact that pointing labs are proving themselves in wetlands and uplands all over the country. 

As to the bitch, I have decided I am not going to breed her. I’m questioning it too much as it is, and while she has okay bloodlines they aren’t outstanding. Instead getting another who is from similar quality as Tanker. The bitch in question is a good dog, and I hope she ends up in a hunting family but she isn’t the quality stock my stud is.


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## andrewjcanderson

Also, as to her clearances no she doesn’t have them, and I wasn’t going to breed her without them. 

With regards to the question of why I wanted to breed my stud. It’s not purely about sentiment. It’s about the fact that I have always loved hunting with retrievers and have always wanted to breed hunting dogs. Before anyone then decides to berate that whimsical fantasy, I have trained several dogs for hunting and for family, I’m not an experienced breeder but I ain’t exactly a noob when it comes to hunting dogs or training them. Her talent level may have been worth it, but she doesn’t have titles or a lot of hunting experience, just natural ability. 

Either way I am taking my efforts elsewhere. Somehow i feel like i was at this decision the minute i asked the question, and that perhaps asking the question just muddied the waters more than necessary. 

Thanks for the feedback anyway y’all...


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## Mark Couch

High quality breeding stock, we might define it differently but I think all of us like that idea.


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## HarryWilliams

One gains experience on breeding when you breed dogs. One also gain experience when you post a question on RTF. If you/one gain knowledge with that experience is yet a matter to be determined. HPW


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## ErinsEdge

> Her talent level may have been worth it, but she doesn’t have titles or a lot of hunting experience, just natural ability.


FYI: Just because she retrieved a bird 48 hours after you got her without being "trained" is not impressive with Labs. They have been bred for years to retrieve. Pointers have been bred to Point. Many of the "Pointing Labs" do not reproduce well to point naturally but can be trained to point, and many pro trainers have found that Pointing Labs do not retrieve well and they are washed. You have a dog you like, but breeding Pointing Labs is a whole different type of breeding, and there are very few Pointing Lab lines that actually produce pointing Labs puppies.


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## Doug Main

ErinsEdge said:


> FYI: Just because she retrieved a bird 48 hours after you got her without being "trained" is not impressive with Labs. They have been bred for years to retrieve. Pointers have been bred to Point. Many of the "Pointing Labs" do not reproduce well to point naturally but can be trained to point, and many pro trainers have found that Pointing Labs do not retrieve well and they are washed. You have a dog you like, but breeding Pointing Labs is a whole different type of breeding, and there are very few Pointing Lab lines that actually produce pointing Labs puppies.


FYI I've heard the silver labs are more likely to point. Lol. :razz:


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## polmaise

ErinsEdge said:


> FYI: Just because she retrieved a bird 48 hours after you got her without being "trained" is not impressive with Labs. They have been bred for years to retrieve. Pointers have been bred to Point.


It should be a slogan or something ? 
Y'all with issues are just doin it wrong .


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## red devil

Doug Main said:


> FYI I've heard the silver labs are more likely to point. Lol.


Very naughty Doug, very, very naughty


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## Wayne Nutt

Roy Gonia told me that labs with crooked tails were no good.


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## DarrinGreene

andrewjcanderson said:


> Oh for Petes sake.
> 
> I’m not here to debate the merits or demerits of pointing labs. My dog Tanker was sired by a MH and 3x GMPR. He is the best dog I have ever hunted over. Honestly 10 years ago that debate bucket might have held more water but anybody bringing it up now is IMO sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to the fact that pointing labs are proving themselves in wetlands and uplands all over the country.
> 
> As to the bitch, I have decided I am not going to breed her. I’m questioning it too much as it is, and while she has okay bloodlines they aren’t outstanding. Instead getting another who is from similar quality as Tanker. The bitch in question is a good dog, and I hope she ends up in a hunting family but she isn’t the quality stock my stud is.


You aren't going to get much debate here about breeding two untitled dogs, one of which we know has a questionable physical trait and the other, likely bred out of lines valued for things outside the standard. 

MJH and I tend to butt heads from time to time but I know we agree here.


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## DarrinGreene

BTW if these were titled dogs with health clearances the answer would be "her tail doesn't matter" - that's not the issue at all.


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## rrwilly

Off track here but you don't want to get me started on pointing labs just about every guide, lodge or whoever breeds them here in South Dakota. One guy a few miles from me probably has close to a dozen litters a year and sells them for waaay more than they are worth (obviously a bias opinion) he's got quite a following to sell that many puppies or he's convinced them to drink the Kool-Aid


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## DarrinGreene

rrwilly said:


> Off track here but you don't want to get me started on pointing labs just about every guide, lodge or whoever breeds them here in South Dakota. One guy a few miles from me probably has close to a dozen litters a year and sells them for waaay more than they are worth (obviously a bias opinion) he's got quite a following to sell that many puppies or he's convinced them to drink the Kool-Aid


So do the doodle people and the "silver" lab guys... 

I just had a client drive from Jersey to Minnesota or Michigan (I forget) to buy a purposely bred "mastador" - yea - right - it's 5/8 Mastiff, 3/8 Lab - for temperament reasons? Dude looks and acts like a full bred cane corso - won't retrieve a thing, teeth like a gator and loves to play tug... I have no idea what they paid because I couldn't bring myself to ask.

Actually, in retrospect breeding "Crooked tailed pointing labs" doesn't sound so bad after all.


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## polmaise

DarrinGreene said:


> Actually, in retrospect breeding "Crooked tailed pointing labs" doesn't sound so bad after all.


As soon as I sort out this 'Tartan' Lab thing ..just you wait..It's gonna go viral mate. 
If it get's a Blue ribbon we can write our own cheque .


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## Chris Atkinson

polmaise said:


> As soon as I sort out this 'Tartan' Lab thing ..just you wait..It's gonna go viral mate.
> If it get's a Blue ribbon we can write our own cheque .


I wore dress gordon in Pittenweem, Fife one time. There's some Buchanan in the family too, but it's too hard to find in a "rental" place. Those Scots have some other word than "rent". I can't recall what they said. 

It's all marketing. I've got a solid black tartan right here on the floor chewing on a bone. He's got a hook tail too. (So hooked that was his dad's name). Post #5 in this discussion mentions my solid black tartan pup's dad - "Hook".

There's another thread active now, about a different "Hook".


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## EdA

Wayne Nutt said:


> Roy Gonia told me that labs with crooked tails were no good.


curly or crooked? Some are good some are not but they’re all ugly, IMO there is no more distracting physical feature in a Labrador than a long skinny curly tail.


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## mwk56

I agree Dr. Ed! The Otter tail is one of the classic identifiers of the breed. 

Meredith


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## DarrinGreene

mwk56 said:


> I agree Dr. Ed! The Otter tail is one of the classic identifiers of the breed.
> 
> Meredith


You haven't been to many trials lately, have you? You won't see too many "otter" tails, at least not out my way. People are worried about what the front end of the dog does, not the back end.

You may be looking at their tail when they are pinning 400 yard marks but trust me - you won't notice it lol


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## Repaupo

DarrinGreene said:


> You haven't been to many trials lately, have you? You won't see too many "otter" tails, at least not out my way. People are worried about what the front end of the dog does, not the back end.
> 
> *You may be looking at their tail when they are pinning 400 yard marks but trust me - you won't notice it lol*


*
*

This........


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## wetdog

There are plenty of good looking dogs at field trials that don't look like whippets. My two cents. I, for one, get more enjoyment out of running a trial with a dog that somewhat looks like a lab.


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## bamajeff

EdA said:


> curly or crooked? Some are good some are not but they’re all ugly, IMO there is no more distracting physical feature in a Labrador than a long skinny curly tail.


I think the head is the most distinguishing feature of the Lab, but the tail is a close 2nd. Not a fan of straying too far from the standard on either.


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## Thomas D

So you get a pup that doesn't have the classic otter tail. What do you do? Neuter it and give it away?


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## Matt McKenzie

Thomas D said:


> So you get a pup that doesn't have the classic otter tail. What do you do? Neuter it and give it away?


In my opinion, a dog can make outstanding working stock but not qualify as breeding stock. If I want a dog solely for hunt tests, hunting or field trials, I'm not going to be as concerned about physical appearance. As some have noted here, who cares what a dog's tail looks like when he's returning with the last bird of a National?

On the other hand, if I'm selecting breeding stock, I'm looking at the "whole dog". This includes conformation, health, performance, disposition, pedigree, and a number of other traits.
As someone noted here, there's no such thing as a perfect dog. But if I choose to breed a litter, I have to have a vision of what type of dog I'm trying to produce. For me, many outstanding performers are disqualified by conformation issues. Many dogs who are closer to my conformational ideal may not have the talent or trainability I'm looking for.

Some seem to think that one must choose between breeding acceptable conformation or breeding for talent. I don't believe that is necessarily true.


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## vergy

DarrinGreene said:


> You haven't been to many trials lately, have you? You won't see too many "otter" tails, at least not out my way. People are worried about what the front end of the dog does, not the back end.
> 
> You may be looking at their tail when they are pinning 400 yard marks but trust me - you won't notice it lol




And that is the problem! Many snobby posters on here constantly play the "Mr. Perfect" card all the time. " Shouldn't breed if no health, shouldn't breed if not gonna run contests, shouldnt breed if not tons of titles, labs are no good if no ribbons" etc etc. Yet a labrador that looks like husky mixed with a greyhound is just fine??? Skinny nose, long skinny legs, curly tail??? That is not what a labrador's history proves. This site runs wild with hypocrisy. When labs were originally founded and used as meat dogs back in the day...there was no trials etc. They were developed from mixing breeds and yes pointers of sorts were in the mix. A lab without a square head, stout shoulders and an otter tail is cheating the system. Are there exceptions to littlers? Sure you get pups that have less than desirable traits on occasion but many of you are splitting hairs to what YOU like. So many of you say.." are you bettering the breed?" Good lord are you?


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## EdA

Thomas D said:


> So you get a pup that doesn't have the classic otter tail. What do you do? Neuter it and give it away?


There is a wide variation between an “otter tail” and a long curly tail that looks like a scorpion’s tail. If you buy a puppy without looking at the parents you don’t care and if you get that tail you just accept it and hope the dog is really good.


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## EdA

DarrinGreene said:


> You haven't been to many trials lately, have you?


I have been to quite a few, how about you?


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## bamajeff

EdA said:


> I have been to quite a few, how about you?


Yeah, I wondered where that question came from. Do Nationals count?


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## Thomas D

EdA said:


> There is a wide variation between an “otter tail” and a long curly tail that looks like a scorpion’s tail. If you buy a puppy without looking at the parents you don’t care and if you get that tail you just accept it and hope the dog is really good.


Thanks, Ed. My question was meant to be rhetorical, but gave you gave credibility to my thoughts on this.
In 30 plus years I don't think I have ever had a dog that wasn't leggy, have a narrow snout, or have a curved tail.
Maybe next time.
breedings from MH


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## HarryWilliams

The best place to find an otter tail is on an otter. Lick the bottom of a pop bottle regards, HPW


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## Tobias

What is really funny is that otters have relatively flat tails. Take the lab tail and put it in a press....flatten out the edges and you might have something resembling an otter tail

Taxidermist regards


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## DarrinGreene

EdA said:


> I have been to quite a few, how about you?


A few a year still Dr. Ed, clearly not as many as you.

The comment was directed at Meredith. Sorry if there was any confusion.


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## Chris Atkinson

HarryWilliams said:


> The best place to find an otter tail is on an otter. Lick the bottom of a pop bottle regards, HPW


Interesting comment! The thread is about labs with tails like this:










When you mention licking the bottom of the coke bottle, are you referencing to labs with heads like this?:


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## Rnd

Chris, any chance you remember a dog named "Molson"???

Makes that scorpions tail look straight.


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## Repaupo

"seven" !!!!!!!

7,7,7,7,7,7,7 !!!!!!!

Pages about tails !!!!!!!


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## Daren Galloway

Repaupo said:


> "seven" !!!!!!!
> 
> 7,7,7,7,7,7,7 !!!!!!!
> 
> Pages about tails !!!!!!!


That depends entirely on how many posts you have selected per page.


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## Chris Atkinson

Rnd said:


> Chris, any chance you remember a dog named "Molson"???
> 
> Makes that scorpions tail look straight.


I remember Molson well. I think of Molson often. My current black male has a tail that would rival Molson's. If my dog would run as well for me as Molson did for Shawn, I'd be thrilled.

I can still envision Shawn cupping his hands around his mouth and yelling out "Waaaaaaateeeeerrrr" .... and watching Molson get wet. Or his classic no-hand blinds using "Gee, Haw, Back, Gee-back, and haw-back" Amazing stuff. 

I wish we had some video.


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## Chris Atkinson

Daren Galloway said:


> That depends entirely on how many posts you have selected per page.


I'm still on 2 pages, but your post is #67....it is a lot of posts on a basic topic.


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## Mark Littlejohn

Daren Galloway said:


> That depends entirely on how many posts you have selected per page.


Or how many are on your Ignore List.


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