# Most Open All AGe points in one year?



## bmiles (Aug 20, 2004)

Does anyone know what the record is for the most open all age points in one year? With Bullet having 65 points this year in the open only it makes me wonder what the highest of all time is.

Thanks, 
Brandon


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

http://www.theretrievernews.com/Library/AllTimeHighPointOpenDogs


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Retriever Results is showing Bullet with 60 points which looks like it would still be enough for the most points Open ever.


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## bmiles (Aug 20, 2004)

I don't think that counts his win this past weekend


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## bakbay (May 20, 2003)

Pretty sure the previous high Open total was River Oaks Corky with 60.5 in 1969 (with 10 wins, but not the National). Corky, BTW, also had 41 amateur points that year with 7 amateur wins...giving him 17 all-age wins for the year.


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## Alain (Dec 9, 2005)

Hi Bmiles

I know that FC FTCH AFTCH Seaside One To Many ''Ralph'' had 92 AA points in 2006 in the Canadian circuit before being sold to deceased Sherwin Scott in 2007.


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## Loran Marmes (JR) (Jan 19, 2013)

Does the winner of a national only recieve 5 points for that win?


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## Loran Marmes (JR) (Jan 19, 2013)

Retriever Results has Creek Robber with 61 open points in 2004. Here is a list of the top 10 open from retriever results


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Loran Marmes (JR) said:


> Retriever Results has Creek Robber with 61 open points in 2004. Here is a list of the top 10 open from retriever results
> View attachment 20974


Those are the purina points which are calculated differently.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

AKC, Retriever News, and Purina all calculate points differently. Theoretically you could have 3 different high point open dogs for the same year. If you look at Retriever News they put a little asterisk * by saying they added 5 points for the National Open win. Purina adds 10 points for a National Open win. AKC does not give any championship points for the National Open win but instead awards the FC title to the dog. A few years back I discussed this with Nelson Sills. He stated that AKC points are to award titles. Also the rule book for retriever trials verifies this. If you look at championship points awarded you will see that the National championship stakes are not included.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

No idea but for us it's well into the thousands. 
Don and crew


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

junbe said:


> AKC, Retriever News, and Purina all calculate points differently. Theoretically you could have 3 different high point open dogs for the same year. If you look at Retriever News they put a little asterisk * by saying they added 5 points for the National Open win. Purina adds 10 points for a National Open win. AKC does not give any championship points for the National Open win but instead awards the FC title to the dog. A few years back I discussed this with Nelson Sills. He stated that AKC points are to award titles. Also the rule book for retriever trials verifies this. If you look at championship points awarded you will see that the National championship stakes are not included.


Retriever Results calculates points in this manner:

* Regular points (as shown in the Retriver Results scorecard): Standard AKC AA pts (5-3-1-.5) for placements in AA stakes INCLUDING 5 pts for winning a National or National Am. Derby points (5-3-2-1)
* Purina points (as shown in the Purina rankings): include an additional 5 pts to each FINALIST
* RR uses AKC rules to determine titles.
* If you check your dog's points on the AKC site, there is "double counting" for the times when an amateur handled a dog in the Open. This is because (as noted above), the AKC is focused on "points progression to a title" not points per se. THis is why AKC points and RR points may not agree. Both sources are correct, they are just focused on different goals.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Doesn't Purina use the year from National Open - National Open where the others use the regular calendar year


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> Doesn't Purina use the year from National Open - National Open where the others use the regular calendar year


Yes as does RR for the Purina Open & Am rankings, calendar year for the Purina Derby ranking and others.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

*Top Retrievers, Single Trial, Yearly & All-time*

Cliches "rear their competitive heads" & inconsistent scoring standards are part of a talley & any discussion.

Will FC2XNAFC3XCNFC RIVER OAKS CORKY's All-Age point total of 505.5 ever be surpassed?
That is a question for the pundits & the ages. I will say here ... maybe, maybe not.

I for one was a contemporary owner & handler & judge during Corky's career - particularly the
impressive last 5 years of his marvelous run. 

Would I try to compare his legacy to any other dog or any dog's legacy - NO!!

I salute John, Mike & Bill (Voigt)!!

W. D. Connor


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

canuckkiller said:


> Cliches "rear their competitive heads" & inconsistent scoring standards are part of a talley & any discussion.
> 
> *Will FC2XNAFC3XCNFC RIVER OAKS CORKY's All-Age point total of 505.5 ever be surpassed?
> That is a question for the pundits & the ages.* I will say here ... maybe, maybe not.
> ...


That record along with Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak will not be surpassed, at least in my lifetime(and I plan on being around for quite a few more years)

the reason being a dog would have to have TEN years of averaging 50 AA points just to reach the plateau. Even if the dog were to start winning at age 3, that dog would have to maintain that level for a decade...How many dogs have ever eclipsed 100 points/year..nowadays a dog that has 100 AA points is normally thought to have had a very nice career...which makes Corky's record that much more impressive


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

As great as Corky was, there is also no doubt in my mind that if he was born today he would not rack up 500pts. The depth of competition today, both in terms of dogs and harndlers, is significantly higher. In fact, no comparison.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Mike W. said:


> As great as Corky was, there is also no doubt in my mind that if he was born today he would not rack up 500pts. The depth of competition today, both in terms of dogs and harndlers, is significantly higher. In fact, no comparison.


Maybe, maybe not... We will never know. He was the only dog to rack up 500+ points even back then... So it couldn't have been easy.

Creek Robber had over 400 pts and missed parts of a couple of years with injuries.

Look at the points Bullet put up in the Open, what if he was double staking? 

Look at the points Ammo put up. Both won a National too. 

Maybe a great dog like River Oaks Corky, trained with todays methods and having the opportunities todays dogs have... Who knows? The great ones are great for a reason. 

If the right dog that can handle the grind gets with a handler owner who can.... 1. Afford it and... 2. Also handle the grind... They can put up a large number of points.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mike W. said:


> As great as Corky was, there is also no doubt in my mind that if he was born today he would not rack up 500pts. The depth of competition today, both in terms of dogs and harndlers, is significantly higher. In fact, no comparison.


How can you compare Ted Williams or Hank Aaron to Alex Rodriguez or Barry Bonds?


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

I expressed my opinion, that's all. You have a different opinion, great. That's what makes markets.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mike W. said:


> I expressed my opinion, that's all. You have a different opinion, great. That's what makes markets.


And what do you know about Corky's competition or anything else about field trials prior to 2005 +\-?


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Just what I have read. Why you being a prick?

Just out of curiosity, how many dogs have you trained from puppy to FC by yourself?

I think it's the same number as me.....zero.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

canuckkiller said:


> Cliches "rear their competitive heads" & inconsistent scoring standards are part of a talley & any discussion.
> 
> Will FC2XNAFC3XCNFC RIVER OAKS CORKY's All-Age point total of 505.5 ever be surpassed?
> That is a question for the pundits & the ages. I will say here ... maybe, maybe not.
> ...


Nobody ever has answered this question. How many of Corky's point were from Canadian trials ?


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

EdA said:


> How can you compare Ted Williams or Hank Aaron to Alex Rodriguez or Barry Bonds?


Are you saying that dogs today are jucing?


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## bakbay (May 20, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Nobody ever has answered this question. How many of Corky's point were from Canadian trials ?


Don't have any idea how many Canadian points Corky had, but the 505.5 were all in AKC competition.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mike W. said:


> Just what I have read. Why you being a prick?
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many dogs have you trained from puppy to FC by yourself?
> 
> I think it's the same number as me.....zero.


Hardly relevant to your attempt to impune Corky's record with zero knowledge, but for the record my contributions to training field trial dogs have already exceeded any you could accumulate in the rest of your lifetime.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

No one can say, what might have been. Or, what will be.

But I tend to believe, a great dog is simply that. Great. And there sure aren't very many of them.
I think, what made them great in the past, are the same qualities that would make them great today.
But...that can only be my opinion


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> but for the record my contributions to training field trial dogs have already exceeded any you could accumulate in the rest of your lifetime.


*No matter what the sport or endeavor, the truly great ones don't proclaim their own greatness.*

You are right, I will probably never accomplish what you have in the sport. But then again you are not my measure of success. 

But I enjoy this sport. I enjoy competing, I enjoy improving, and I enjoy the history. I have only been competing for 5 years, and have had many more disappointments than I have had triumphs. But I keep coming back because I truly enjoy the sport.

All I can say is I will show up and run my dog the best I can. 

You will probably die not ever having trained your own Field Champion. Time will tell if I am able to do that one day.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mike W. said:


> You will probably die not ever having trained your own Field Champion. Time will tell if I am able to do that one day.


You are probably correct and I am betting you are lifetime Phase II.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

You both need a time out..........


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

cakaiser said:


> No one can say, what might have been. Or, what will be.
> 
> But I tend to believe, a great dog is simply that. Great. And there sure aren't very many of them.
> I think, what made them great in the past, are the same qualities that would make them great today.
> But...that can only be my opinion


Ditto.....


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Mike W. said:


> As great as Corky was, there is also no doubt in my mind that if he was born today he would not rack up 500pts. The depth of competition today, both in terms of dogs and harndlers, is significantly higher. In fact, no comparison.


One HUGE fact that you may not know Mike W. Is that Corky ran against more RHOF dogs and National winners that most dogs. For example the last National that Corky won in Jackson Hole there were 17 dogs that eventually made it to the RHOF or won a National. Name me 20 dogs on the circuit now that will be HOF or win a National dogs. Corky was a legend and he competed and beat legends


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## Kentucky Mark (Mar 28, 2014)

Mike W 
Congratulations to you as I have actively read the posts on this forum for over a decade. I see people come and go. I know several of the posters on this forum some are friends others - not so much. My question to you is " Do you try to be a Prick or does it just happen naturally? You win the Grand Trojan award. I pity your misery. 
Mark


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Mike W. said:


> *No matter what the sport or endeavor, the truly great ones don't proclaim their own greatness.*
> 
> You are right, I will probably never accomplish what you have in the sport. But then again you are not my measure of success.
> 
> ...


What constitutes having "trained your own" Field Champion?

Does it have to be all by yourself
Obviously using a pro is out.
How about if you have used an "ex pro"?


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Go back and read, and I was respectfully stating an opinion, and then was jumped because somehow because I have not been in 20 years, and therefore I have no right to share an opinion. 

This is exactly the type of attitude that all too often is shown to the public, and turns off newcomers to field trials.

Bon, under the same set of rules, you can say nothing as you don't even run dogs. 

Done with this thread. You guys have fun with it if you want to.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Mike W. said:


> Go back and read, and I was respectfully stating an opinion, and then was jumped because somehow because I have not been in 20 years, and therefore I have no right to share an opinion.
> 
> This is exactly the type of attitude that all too often is shown to the public, and turns off newcomers to field trials.
> *
> ...


Gee must have been someone else running the Amateur at Northern Utah....sorry that I dont have the funds or profession to run week in week out...the difference with me is that I respect people and dont measure them by whether or not they are listed on EE or the RN performance books

...and Not that he needs me to defend him but your poke at Dr Aycock was a cheap classless shot...Dr A has given plenty to the game throughout the years not to mention his stint as President of the National Retriever Club.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mike W. said:


> Go back and read, and I was respectfully stating an opinion, and then was jumped because somehow because I have not been in 20 years, and therefore I have no right to share an opinion.
> 
> This is exactly the type of attitude that all too often is shown to the public, and turns off newcomers to field trials.
> 
> ...


Mike, I don't know if you are still following this thread or not, but if you are, I think the issue some of us have with your first statement was how you are 100% sure Corky would never do that well in today's game. I thought Bill had the best answer which is nobody knows. We all know that FTs test are way more advanced than back then, we also know there are more dogs and better training, but it is mere speculation as too how the best of one era would do now, assuming everything else is equal. In a similar vein I would bet that Jim Thorp, Merlin Olsen or Wilt Chamberlain would dominate today just like they did in their day, but I can't prove it. I also thought your cheap shot at Bon was uncalled for.


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## Garduck (Feb 1, 2013)

BonMallari said:


> One HUGE fact that you may not know Mike W. Is that Corky ran against more RHOF dogs and National winners that most dogs. For example the last National that Corky won in Jackson Hole there were 17 dogs that eventually made it to the RHOF or won a National. Name me 20 dogs on the circuit now that will be HOF or win a National dogs. Corky was a legend and he competed and beat legends


First caveat my understanding of field trial history is modest at best probably close to non existent. That being said why should we assume that bullets competitors today won't be the legends of tmwr. Several of his competitors have been national finalists in both the national and national am. Many have produced exceedingly well and several will surely be nationalist finalist/ national winners in the future. His accomplishments at this national and previous nationals where he has been o so close lead me to believe he is. Nothing short of spectacular. All I am getting at is that it is hard to use hindsight which by its nature is 20 20 to compare a dog that is not yet seven and whose contemporaries have many years to achieve legend status.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I first saw Bullet run the Open at Wichita Falls in the Spring of 2011. My very good marking dog went out in that first series quad, Bullet just hammered it. I could tell right there that that dog just had it and have rooted for him ever since. I also have been a big fan of Ammo. I see a lot more of her and am equally impressed at her talent and ability to hold it together trial after trial, day after day.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Bullet when he was a derby dog.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Mike W. said:


> *No matter what the sport or endeavor, the truly great ones don't proclaim their own greatness. *


Dogs don't talk  but as someone who saw ROC run the 1971 Canadian National I will attest to his greatness. 

As for the dogs of the past, many would be competitors in any scenario, be it then or now. ROC being one of those. 
It's a different sport today, limited grounds, fewer folks who do the majority of their dog's training & numerous help 
videos that did not exist in the past. Strongly influenced by professional trainers, which creates more really good dogs, 
but failing in the innovative tests of the past & with air transport & AI a more limited gene pool. IMO not always good.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Garduck said:


> First caveat my understanding of field trial history is modest at best probably close to non existent. That being said why should we assume that bullets competitors today won't be the legends of tmwr. Several of his competitors have been national finalists in both the national and national am. Many have produced exceedingly well and several will surely be nationalist finalist/ national winners in the future. His accomplishments at this national and previous nationals where he has been o so close lead me to believe he is. Nothing short of spectacular. All I am getting at is that it is hard to use hindsight which by its nature is 20 20 to compare a dog that is not yet seven and whose contemporaries have many years to achieve legend status.


Your point is a good one and I was thinking the same thing. (Taking nothing away from past greats, but we do have a plethora of of damn good ones here right now!)


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I saw Corky perform as a 6 month old on up until he was sold to Mike Flannery. John Trepaiaz did all the young dog training on him. Then saw him in all-ages as he progressed in his career. It is my opinion without a doubt he would be one of the great ones today . He had some issues that would have been addressed in todays contemporary training such as voice and overrunning ,LOL some which was learned as a young dog running many trials in the sanctioned trial era.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

criquetpas said:


> i saw corky perform as a 6 month old on up until he was sold to mike flannery. John trepaiaz did all the young dog training on him. Then saw him in all-ages as he progressed in his career. It is my opinion without a doubt he would be one of the great ones today . He had some issues that would have been addressed in todays contemporary training such as voice and overrunning ,lol some which was learned as a young dog running many trials in the sanctioned trial era.



and that"s the facts.............................jack !!


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## bakbay (May 20, 2003)

Since the Retriever News just published their annual performance summaries and since the Retriever News web pages (http://www.theretrievernews.com/Library/AllTimeHighPointOpenDogs and http://www.theretrievernews.com/Library/AllTimeHighPointAmateurDogs) only go back to 1979, I thought it might be interesting to list some of the all-age point totals for the years 1967-1978 . Perhaps someone with performance records prior to 1967 might like to add earlier years. The asterisks for totals in the Open and Amateur columns indicate that was the highest total for the year.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

*Open High Point 1969-1974*

RIVER OAKS CORKY Open All-Age
*Outstanding Campaigns Performance Books '67-'72 & '73-'78
** Sue Reynolds '41-'95 RFTS

1969 60.5 points* 27 starts 10 1st Finished 74%**
1970 42.5 points* 24 starts 5 1st Finished 58%**
1971 57.5 points* 26 starts 8 1st Finished 73%**
1972 37 points* 23 starts 4 1st Finished 83%**
1973 34.5 points* 20 starts 4 1st Finished 70%**
('73 Ray's Rascal 35 points* 15 starts 5 1st finished 60%**)
1974 41.5 points* 20 starts 6 1st Finished 80%**

W. D. Connor


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