# Best Marking Drill



## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

I'd like to hear what folks here think is the best/most effective drill for developing pinpoint marking on multiple marks.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i think it's the ABCD(E) drill.-Paul


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

ABCD drill is great for getting dogs to develop marking in multiple gun pictures.

I also like the X pattern - throw angle back, throw angle in, and then flat - alternating sides. 

The best drill to teach marking - is throw singles and make the dog focus before being sent. Singles teach marking. 

To help with the memory development, you can do singles bird in mouth or 360 the mark.

Carol


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

J. Walker said:


> I'd like to hear what folks here think is the best/most effective drill for *developing pinpoint marking on multiple marks.*




I think that you can do some drill work to *improve* marking and familiarize them on different marking concepts, but the pinpoint part just might be God given.


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

Walking singles develops pinpoint marking better than any other drill.


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

Carol Cassity said:


> To help with the memory development, you can do singles bird in mouth or 360 the mark.
> 
> Carol


Please excuse my ignorance but could you explain these?

Thanks,

Travis


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I am a big fan of the "W" drill, and do lots of "rolling singles" (walking singles off a 4 wheeler as its too much walking to actually "walk").


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

sorry to hijack thread for a moment, but I just got your book and it's AWESOME!!!!




Carol Cassity said:


> ABCD drill is great for getting dogs to develop marking in multiple gun pictures.
> 
> I also like the X pattern - throw angle back, throw angle in, and then flat - alternating sides.
> 
> ...


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> sorry to hijack thread for a moment, but I just got your book and it's AWESOME!!!!



and what book is that? no reason not to plug it here!

gulf coast - please describe the "W" drill??

and Tom - i like these too. are you doing anything different? for instance, sometimes i carry a small 2-stake holding blind, and i make sure to throw in, flat, and out, short and far.


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## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

david gibson said:


> and what book is that? no reason not to plug it here!
> 
> gulf coast - please describe the "W" drill??
> 
> and Tom - i like these too. are you doing anything different? for instance, sometimes i carry a small 2-stake holding blind, and i make sure to throw in, flat, and out, short and far.


David...I'll plug it! Building a Retriever is my favorite training book, just filled with drills for all occasions 
Available at Dogs Afield http://www.dogsafield.com/prodinfo.asp?number=R174-001
The best $25 you'll ever spend!
Diane


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

BoilerMan1812 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but could you explain these?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Travis


I too have never heard of the 360 term.

The bird in the mouth mark is where a dog retrieves a single mark and is positioned for a 2nd mark while still holding the 1st bird in its mouth. The bird is not taken from the dog until the next bird has been thrown. Supposed to help a dog get in the habit of the mechanics of multiple marks.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Carol Cassity said:


> ABCD drill is great for getting dogs to develop marking in multiple gun pictures.
> 
> I also like the X pattern - throw angle back, throw angle in, and then flat - alternating sides.
> 
> ...


Carol, where the heck have you been lately??? 

Judy


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Diane Brunelle said:


> David...I'll plug it! Building a Retriever is my favorite training book, just filled with drills for all occasions
> Available at Dogs Afield http://www.dogsafield.com/prodinfo.asp?number=R174-001
> The best $25 you'll ever spend!
> Diane


thanks, done deal, i will get it. i have trained with no book or dvd, i have a good feel on the basics, but a good mix of drills to me is the key - teaching the same thing by different methods and drills seems logically to be the way to go. thanks!


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

To the OP, some of the best marking drills may not be openly shared by the pro's, it is their lively hood after all. I have purchased Carol Cassity's book and am putting it into good use. (thank you Carol)
A regular RTF poster shared this link:
http://www.kwicklabs.com/drills.htm
(thank you Kwicklabs)
And thank you Mr. Nolan for sharing the KRD drill.


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

BoilerMan1812 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but could you explain these?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Travis


Travis
Bird in mouth is a term that refers to having a bird hold a previously retrieved object while watching a new mark go down. Then, you take the first bird (the one in mouth) and send for the mark just thrown. BIM helps develop the mechanics for multiple marks and adds a little memory time for a single. 

360ing a mark is the term my group came up when you throw a single, let the dog focus on the mark, heel in a tight circle at the line (360 degrees), line back up on the mark and then send. 360ing the mark gives a single gunner time to retire, gives the dog a memory picture, works on developing the picture again - which helps build memory. 

Hope this helps
Carol


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

Judy Chute said:


> Carol, where the heck have you been lately???
> 
> Judy



There hasn't been a whole lot to most recent discussions I felt I could add to and make a difference. This one got started when I got online this afternoon. If someone said what I was going to, I usually just don't add on. 

BTW, thanks to all on the kind words about the book.

Carol


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Carol Cassity said:


> There hasn't been a whole lot to most recent discussions I felt I could add to and make a difference. This one got started when I got online this afternoon. If someone said what I was going to, I usually just don't add on.
> 
> BTW, thanks to all on the kind words about the book.
> 
> Carol


i remember now i saw it last week training with a friend, and this and another thread prompted me to order now...._it better be good_.... ;-) variety is the spice of training, and this fits the bill. looking forward to it. i wish you a lot of future luck!


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

Carol Cassity said:


> Travis
> Bird in mouth is a term that refers to having a bird hold a previously retrieved object while watching a new mark go down. Then, you take the first bird (the one in mouth) and send for the mark just thrown. BIM helps develop the mechanics for multiple marks and adds a little memory time for a single.
> 
> 360ing a mark is the term my group came up when you throw a single, let the dog focus on the mark, heel in a tight circle at the line (360 degrees), line back up on the mark and then send. 360ing the mark gives a single gunner time to retire, gives the dog a memory picture, works on developing the picture again - which helps build memory.
> ...


Thanks fo clearing this up...I too find your book very useful and I highly reccommend it for those that are just starting out (like myself). Lots of good information and very easy to follow.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Y drill, sounds very similar to Carol's W drill. 

Lone gunner stands about 75-100 yards away. First bird thrown flat to the gunners left. Next bird thrown sharply angled back to the gunners left. Third bird thrown angled in at 45 degree to the gunners right. All singles. This is a top drill that the Hillman's use. They prefer orange bumpers for it in initial stages.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

others have already plugged the book, just want to add it's fantastic for beginners like me, I have no background in this stuff at all but can understand the drills. 
Building a Retriever, Drills and More. A must own!


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Tim West said:


> Y drill, sounds very similar to Carol's W drill.
> 
> Lone gunner stands about 75-100 yards away. First bird thrown flat to the gunners left. Next bird thrown sharply angled back to the gunners left. Third bird thrown angled in at 45 degree to the gunners right. All singles. This is a top drill that the Hillman's use. They prefer orange bumpers for it in initial stages.


Isn't that the X drill?

I think the W drill in Carol's book is a blind drill


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

david gibson said:


> and what book is that? no reason not to plug it here!
> 
> gulf coast - please describe the "W" drill??
> .


I will try to sketch it, as its hard for me to describe. Note there are lots of different things called "W" drills by different folks. Carol has 2 great "W" drills in her book, that are different than what I am talking about. What I do came from an old field trialer that is nice enough to help me out (yell at me) with my dog from time to time.  It's more a "specific configuration" of an ABC drill.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Carol,
Is this book the same as the book " Drills For The Retriever Hunt Test Enthusiast"


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

Brad said:


> Carol,
> Is this book the same as the book " Drills For The Retriever Hunt Test Enthusiast"


Brad:

No is the short answer. Drills for the Retriever ..... long title huh? was the predecessor to Building A Retriever. BAR has more drills and other retriever training principles and information. For the record, I did not invent the drills in the book and it is not a full training program. I do think it is a worthwhile effort and I do use the drills to help develop skills. 

X marking is the angle in, angle back, flat throw – that’s what we call it, anyway. W, in the book, is setup as a blind running drill. You could use the same configuration to do marks, but the ABCD drill is what you end up with. I have found that lots of people run the same drills, they just call them different things. A field trial buddy of mine saw me running what I called “in-line blinds” and he said: “oh yeah, I’ve run those for twenty years and I call then Ladder Blinds”. 

Hope this helps,

Carol


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I love rolling singles but as a drill I feel I can get the most out of a w drill. Set up 5 stockmen in a w configuration. Distance depends on dogs. I prefer long stations in the 200-250 range and short stations at 100-125. You can work on punch birds by throwing short stations first as singles then throw the long ones. Or work on check downs by throwing long first then short. You can also get hip pocket looks and various other concepts. So as drills go you can get alot out of a couple of w set ups in a day.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is my version of the W marking drill. All run as singles. It really helps a dog look past the short gun to the long mark. Also works great for checkdowns.










I think this is what both Brett and Mark are talking about.
Mark Land


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Yes, I put long birds at 200-250, short birds at 50-60, and middle bird at 130-150. Its great to teach checking up in the face of a long gun, look long past a short gun, and run tight past a gun/old fall all in one drill. Then you can adjust the throws to get hip pockets/off the heels, pinch birds, you name it depending on how tight you want to run it.


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## Archery1973 (Jan 15, 2010)

Could someone explain the ABCD drill?


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## artner24 (Mar 6, 2012)

These two links should help

http://www.totalretriever.com/images/forms/lardy1.pdf

http://www.totalretriever.com/images/forms/lardy1.pdf


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Archery1973 said:


> Could someone explain the ABCD drill?



This one too. ABCD is about 7th down
http://www.kwicklabs.com/drills.htm


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

tom said:


> Walking singles develops pinpoint marking better than any other drill.


Ditto for this. Can choose any area to throw into as well!


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## artner24 (Mar 6, 2012)

oops yeah thats the other one i meant to post not the same one twice


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## Archery1973 (Jan 15, 2010)

artner24 said:


> These two links should help
> 
> http://www.totalretriever.com/images/forms/lardy1.pdf
> 
> http://www.totalretriever.com/images/forms/lardy1.pdf





Rnd said:


> This one too. ABCD is about 7th down
> http://www.kwicklabs.com/drills.htm


Huge help......thank you.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Dave Plesko said:


> [/B]
> 
> I think that you can do some drill work to *improve* marking and familiarize them on different marking concepts, but the pinpoint part just might be God given.


Agreed, the eyes have it. There is marking and there is stepping on the marks.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

dave plesko said:


> [/b]
> 
> i think that you can do some drill work to *improve* marking and familiarize them on different marking concepts, but the pinpoint part just might be god given.


we have a winner!


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## tejohns3 (Jul 23, 2010)

Im thinkin different kinds of marks everyday? Like repetition?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Look, a mark is a mark. There are many so called drills that are great depending on the dogs level.
What is rarely if ever discussed here is how to Train the dog to run marks and what to do when things go wrong, pitfalls and the ramifications of not handling, recalling, correcting etc when necessary and at the correct time.


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## tejohns3 (Jul 23, 2010)

Breck said:


> Look, a mark is a mark. There are many so called drills that are great depending on the dogs level.
> What is rarely if ever discussed here is how to Train the dog to run marks and what to do when things go wrong, pitfalls and the ramifications of not handling, recalling, correcting etc when necessary and at the correct time.


Thats what im thinkin too, as matter of fact thats how we train


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> Look, a mark is a mark. There are many so called drills that are great depending on the dogs level.
> What is rarely if ever discussed here is how to Train the dog to run marks and what to do when things go wrong, pitfalls and the ramifications of not handling, recalling, correcting etc when necessary and at the correct time.



Simple !
....
Over here!..the biggest mistake is 'Handling on a mark'


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Breck said:


> Look, a mark is a mark. There are many so called drills that are great depending on the dogs level.
> What is rarely if ever discussed here is how to Train the dog to run marks and what to do when things go wrong, pitfalls and the ramifications of not handling, recalling, correcting etc when necessary and at the correct time.


That is a thread I would tune into and stay tuned! I've been around just long enough to know what a good mark and a bad one are, but to take that bad one and get some training in, thats where we all need help! When to help - when to handle, When correction - when attrition, etc!


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Carol Cassity said:


> Travis
> 
> 360ing a mark is the term my group came up when you throw a single, let the dog focus on the mark, heel in a tight circle at the line (360 degrees), line back up on the mark and then send. 360ing the mark gives a single gunner time to retire, gives the dog a memory picture, works on developing the picture again - which helps build memory.
> 
> ...


I have never heard of or thought to do this ... very interesting. 

Maybe might make some dogs “nervous” or “Jacked up” at first (i.e. thinking “no bird”, confused.... etc...) But, I see it as a way to get a dog relaxed about walking away from a mark, an opportunity to work on basic OB, and in the end a bit of memory as well as line communication opportunity for the handler/dog. 

Simple. Thoughtful. Nice idea!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

The original post was about pin point marking, maybe a little semantics here. Pin point marking on multiples Has a lot of natural born talents involved. Most well bred retrievers can be taught to run blinds. Marking is a skill that can be developed , but, marking skills with pin point percision is sometimes a born with talent as already stated. 

I think there could be a good thread here on developing marking skills. As an example young dogs should be first taught the mechanics of a mark. Things already discussed such as the bird in the mouth to develop multiple skills or starting off with single marks easy to get to and easy to find. As marking skills are developed marks that are hard to get to,handling skills, but, easy to find once the destination has been met. Simple focus skills such as a hey, hey, or a single shot before the mark is thrown and as soon as the sit, then gunner is signaled for the real mark and a shot is fired. Young dogs very quickly learn to look out past short guns or stickmen. Remote throwers could fire an empty blank and as the dog focus on the station, the mark is then shot for those that train alone. Just a few ideas and others will have many more.


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