# One would think 30 years of doing it....



## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

...would be adequate experience. (sorry Vicki...can't put this under GDG like most of my valueless posts) But I'm actually seeking bona fide help here. I've FF'd and CC'd over a couple dozen retrievers of various breeds, but have never run into one as hard headed as my current pupil.

8 months old. Great desire to please. Marks and retrieves full bore. Is adequate on the basics...sit, come, here, etc...for his age, and at least as good as his predecessors at this stage in their training.

While he was CC'd on "here", and answers that command quite well, I noticed he would never elicit any vocalization, regardless of the strength of the setting. This has now manifested itself into his reluctance to open his mouth or recognize any pain from the ear pinch when given the 'fetch' command. This is WAY beyond the 'buckle tang' pressure...I installed a stove bolt in the collar that I can press the ear down on. Regardless of which segment of the ear I put pressure on, he's close mouthed...gritting his teeth.

Seems like when I first joined RTF, and Chris had several of his NAHRA clan on board, Amish Dave had a 'soda cap' device he mentioned. And one of the group whose name sounded like Howard, brought up a manuever using a pair of pliers. Since I was almost positive, these suggestions were provided in jest, I didn't find out what worked best.

Then Alex came up with a collar program for FF, but I don't recall any of those specifics. HEY!!! I was doing pretty well with the system I'd learned originally...and up until now, it has served me well.

I know I could get into the toe hitch that was in several books of Delmar Smith's, but I don't have a table or pickup tailgate to put the dog on, so I've eschewed that system for fear of toe injury. Besides, every other dog did well with the ear pinch method, and it went with us in any field, if necessary.

Soooo....any suggestions?

UB


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Bill Jake was the absolute hardest dog to FF that i have done, He was started with the toe hitch but we only went so far with it before he started clamming up, So we transfered the pressure to collar and then we progressed quick, I usually use ear pinch too, but thought i would try something different with Jake, He was a bugger......


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

Best dog I've ever owned was just like that. Tried the ear, the toe, collar, you name it!
She was a Winsome Cargo x Thunderhead bitch pup, what dogs are in your dogs background? 

I had a friend help me with FF. One of us would pinch and the other pry her mouth open. After we figured out that was what we had to do, she had it down pat in five short minutes. From then on all I had to do was just touch her ear and she was reaching for the bumper.
I bet with the collar you get the same reaction from the dog on the lowest setting he can feel as you do on the highest. So upping the pressure is not the answer.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

I witnessed a dog do this one time. The trainer put the dog up for about a week and started back very slowly at first. It was like starting all over again, he had to really make a fuss of the dog and pet him up. The dog never really went all the way through FF, because he couldn't take the pressure but made a fine retriever in the end. Good Luck !


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

This might seem like a dumb question to someone with so much FF experience, but did you _*teach*_ the *"hold"* command first before applying any pressure? I didn't see that information in your original post.


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

Interesting - do you think that the dog has inadvertantly learned to "turn off the pressure" by keeping his mouth closed?

Maybe a harder pinch isn't the answer - instead figure out how to show him what you want.

Just a thought.

Kathryn


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

*Uncle Bill said:*



> But I'm actually seeking bona fide help here.


OK...so, what you've tried over the years isn't working. So, why not try something totally different...(bottle caps and more force are not different) as in using positive reinforcement to reinforce what a retriever was bred to do in the first place...retrieve! Hey, every dog is different...right?

Sorry, if that sounds too radical...but you did seem to be...er, uh, ...troubled.

Snick


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

labguy said:


> This might seem like a dumb question to someone with so much FF experience, but did you _*teach*_ the *"hold"* command first before applying any pressure? I didn't see that information in your original post.


I'm kind of wondering this too Uncle Bill... Maybe a backup to the non-pressure part to really get him opening his mouth first just to accept the buck/bumper through sheer repetition that he knows what's coming....

Yes, I know, repetition, repetition, over and over and over and over....but it may work!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> *Uncle Bill said:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Chuck, I sent you a PM.. Thanks, Chris


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

When pressure does not work stop using pressure.
At least for now stop the force part of FF. Wait a few days. This dog may already know what fetch means. After a rest toss a bumper into a pile of 2-3 bumpers and say fetch. He may be more willing to fetch on the move rather than sitting still. This can help remove the battle of wills that you are currently have. After a few days he will probably fetch it out of your hand but keep off his ears, collar and e-buttons.
Please take this as a compliment but your dog is acting like a Chesapeake. He probably knows what you want but is not going to do it until you meet him half way.

JMO

Tim


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

labguy said:


> This might seem like a dumb question to someone with so much FF experience, but did you _*teach*_ the *"hold"* command first before applying any pressure? I didn't see that information in your original post.


I'm wondering the same.



.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Hmmmm,,,, I think you need a little "umph" to your ear pinch.. How about thoroughly collar conditioning your dog? Don't ff your dog while collar conditioning. Once CC is done, combine the ear pinch with collar stimulation on your force fetch. After a couple of days you'll be back to just using the ear pinch...

It's called "tenderizing". Works like a gem...

FWIW

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Doc E said:


> I'm wondering the same.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Uncle Bill has his bases covered....

Angie


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Hmmmm,,,, I think you need a little "umph" to your ear pinch.. How about thoroughly collar conditioning your dog? Don't ff your dog while collar conditioning. Once CC is done, combine the ear pinch with collar stimulation on your force fetch. After a couple of days you'll be back to just using the ear pinch...
> 
> It's called "tenderizing". Works like a gem...
> 
> ...


Well, since Angie waded in, I will too.

I agree with Angie. Been there done that UB.

How about using the collar? 

Every dog responds differently to the different types of pressure.

WRL


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hi Chuck, I sent you a PM.. Thanks, Chris


Thanks, Chris. Got your PM.

Got the message:

Don't mess with Uncle Bill, even though he invited...

Don't mess with 'Force', even if it clearly isn't working...

I hear you loud and clear...

You are the janitor and the censor...and I yield....for the moment....because it seems prudent, for the moment...

But, I am not intimidated...

Snick


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Uncle Bill - PM SENT


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

A few days off can't hurt. Switching to different stimulus can't hurt either. With some dogs that "freeze" changing it up can't hurt. With dogs like this I sometimes will put them on the ground, use a leash in the procedure and make them move to the bumper. Hold it out front and introduce some form of movement. He may be "freezing" in a sense so showing him that action is the key can sometimes help.

/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm no pro. I do not have the experience of force fetching hundreds if not thousands of dogs over the years. I have ff'd a couple dozen or slightly more pups. I have had clams with lock jaw no matter how hard I pinched; and I've had drama queen princesses that laid down, screamed, and did everything to get away except opening their mouth and taking a bumper. 

With steady work they all became force fetched, forced to a pile and double T'd. They all got through it understanding it. (So far anyway) Some have breezed through the ff part of it in less than 3 weeks and another one took almost 3 months, counting all the times I took a week or more off. 

Funny, I've taught hold before ff and I've just gone into ff without teaching hold first. With only doing a couple dozen dogs I can't say whether or not they get it easier teaching hold first or not. There is a stage of fighting the process they all go through if they've been taught hold or not. Once through this period of noncompliance, maybe a couple bouts of it, then ff is mostly over except for the later teaching parts of it.

Uncle Bill, keep training, you'll get through it with him.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> Thanks, Chris. Got your PM.
> 
> Got the message:
> 
> ...


This is extreme.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Tim Carrion said:


> Please take this as a compliment but your dog is acting like a Chesapeake. He probably knows what you want but is not going to do it until you meet him half way.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Tim


 
thinkin' the same. old Chessie trick for when they don't open up and are being harder than hard.........
Let go of the collar, stand up and set back a step. Take your item, training buck or bumper........
and toss it to them. Say fetch when you do it.
they will grab it out of the air. say good dog.
make your tosses shorter and shorter until your hand is right in front where your used to it being. THen you carry on like you know how.
I have seen a Chessie that like is typed two folk were working on just to get it to open it's teeth. My mentor took the dowel and tossed it and
POOF it was in his mouth.
it may not work with every one, but give it a try. It's training right?




.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> thinkin' the same. old Chessie trick for when they don't open up and are being harder than hard.........
> Let go of the collar, stand up and set back a step. Take your item, training buck or bumper........
> and toss it to them. Say fetch when you do it.
> they will grab it out of the air. say good dog.
> ...


Ken, was the dog force fetched? Or was if played with to carry and deliver a buck? It seems to me if you leave it at this you will have huge holes in the dog's training.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Howard N said:


> Ken, was the dog force fetched? Or was if played with to carry and deliver a buck? It seems to me if you leave it at this you will have huge holes in the dog's training.


 
dog wouldn't take the dowel to start FF.
This was just to get it to start to grab the dowel 
from your hand. Like /paul typed above, movement...
it can get the clam to open.




.


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## RN (Feb 10, 2006)

First and foremost I have only forced 5 dogs. 
One however could endure an incredible amount pressure on the ear w/o being phased. I think I could have taken a cordless drill to his ear w/o result. He would not open. James Spencer suggested several methods for opening to include pinching the dogs lip firmly on a canine tooth. That's how I eventually got him to open and through force fetch, his lip was way more sensitive than his ear. You may be able to get him headed in the right direction and opening then move back to the ear for convenience. It was a 3 ring circus dragging him by the snout and pinching his lip at the same time after a refusal to pick a dummy off the ground. Yes he was very gentle and never once tried to bite me.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Bill!!

Have you tried the stove bolt collar on yer own ear to make sure you are using the correct number you wrote down on yer thumbnail withnthat Pink Sharpie???

Thats whats I's wunderin!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Blow in his nose!!

With yer breath!!!! ??????

Either his eyes will cross or He''lll open up to GAG!!

Gooser


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Outside the box here: Saw this done and have used it with Weezie. Take the dowel in your right hand, hold dogs collar in your left-you will be facing him, rub the dowel back and forth under his top lip. Just like you are brushing his teeth. Don't have to be brutal about it, just enough pressure to get them to open up-pop the dowel in his mouth while saying fetch and immediately take it out. Good dog. Repeat. Eventually Weezie began offering to take it the second I put it up there(course we used a toothbrush as the dowel) and I would reward her each time. Not how I've ever forced my GR's at all, but it was effective on the JRT. And look at her go with those birds & bumps.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This is extreme.


Remember the trick I discussed with you about the hammer...?

/Paul


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This is extreme.


Yup!


And, sad.... but, I didn't script it.

On the other hand...

Some have suggested 'changing the subject... as opposed to other 'force' methods... hmmm... that would be Ken?

Don't want to put words in Ken's mouth, but he is definitely talking about changing tactics instead of applying more force...am I right...Ken?

Snick


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

There are some dogs that clam so hard you can drop an entire Maple Tree on um and they will not open up the mouth.
But take a twig from that tree and toss it to um and they open right up. Once you can teach um to take the dowel.
Then you can carry on with your normal FF program. It’s like you can’t play hockey until you learn to skate. And you can’t learn to skate until you can put your skates on. This trick just helps the dog learn to put it’s skates on.



.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

UB, I can only tell you about a fellow I helped with the Toe Hitch. He was going to use pliers on a Golden and I couldn't stand that. He did not know how (or understaand ) how to do the two half hitches on the carple joint and then a half hitch on the middle toes. He did not have a table, so we tied the dog to a pole in his barn so that the dog was sitting on the ground. I took about 3+ feet of braided shade cord,put the two half hitches on the right leg and the half hitch around the two middle toes, knelt down out of reach of the dog and with the dowel in my right hand GENTLY AND CAREFULLY put pressure on the cord. SHE OPENED HER MOUTH! We are both built alike (I don't like that remark anymore than you do) and I could do it. I hope it will work with your problem. JUST BE CAREFUL WITH THE PRESSURE ON THE TOES.

My hunt with you several years ago did wonders for David and I appreciate the time you put in with us. Tell your wife I said, Yes, I guess I'm a Red Neck too. Bill


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

UB I'm the last person to be offering up advice since I don't FF my own dogs but, your description could've been written about one of my Chesapeakes that Pat Nolan FF'd. He's a very good pro, back in the good ole days of mega real estate bucks when I could afford that! Seems like it would be worth trying some of the good suggestions you got from the CBR owners. So I'll relate my own Chesapeake story.

Some older posters might remember my late great Thug, who was a willful defiant pup but had tons of drive. She was an incredibly good marker but at about 4 mos. (she was doing 150 - 200 yd. retrieves) she started refusing to return so she had to be CC'd. It was almost like the longer the mark, the more time she had on the return to devise ways to flip you off. In water she'd stop about 20 feet from shore and just stare at you (and yes both Pat and I took a couple of swims to deal with that!) She's also the only dog I've owned that I needed to use a prong collar on at 3.5 mos. She too seemed impervious to even very high levels on the collar, she never vocalized. She was extremely stubborn in FF and Pat ended up collar fetching her. For some reason she responded to that much better than ear pinch. I believe he's got some articles about that and maybe even some videos on his website that might be worth checking out. You can find it if you google Pat Nolan and Ponderosa Kennel.


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## brown dog (May 22, 2008)

lots of great advice hear giving, ill add when i see this i say the dog does not understand fetch so in return dog doesnt no how to get out of it so dosent open , stop the bench go to hand thrown fetches from the front to get the dog to go after it on command of fetch when all is good return and use no or littel pressure ,the dog will be inpalsive to fetch and undestand the asking and so chances are youll get that first fetch and then all good, or untill the next good luck


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

UB, you said the dog was running marks well. Have you considered not forcing? I personally believe not every dog needs to be forced. If you are insistant on forcing, you can try this. Flip the dogs ear over and buckle the collar onto his ear. Start on one and progress up if needed. Most dogs open on a one.My most stubborn dog took a three and could not stand a four!! I use a Pro 100 on constant medium.Good luck to you Guy


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

This is how I get them to open up when they get lock jaw.

Put your thumb and index finger on either side of the dogs mouth near the "hinge" of the jaw, with the palm of your hand under the jaw. 

Slip your index finger into the gap in the gum line way in the back. No matter how hard they clamp down they will still have a gap way in the back where they have no teeth. 

Normally as soon as you start to stick your index finger in between the gums they open up. 

It's worth a try before applying more force.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I've had this happen. I've tried most of the solutions offered, and had them work. I think the problem is most likely that the pressure is a sufficient distraction that even if the dog "knows" you want him to open his mouth, he doesn't see it as a solution. Either the pain is snapping him out of a training frame of mind, or he's interpreting it as a punishment for the indicated action (fetching). So he's clamming in response to pressure--not a response you want him to rehearse.

My favorite choice is to find a low- or no- force way to get the dummy in his mouth, possibly after a break of a few days. You can toss as Ken suggests, or open his mouth physically. Then start in with a mild pinch, light enough so that it does not distract him from opening his mouth. Then focus on "teaching him to turn off pressure" as you condition him to "fetch" in response to varying amounts of pressure. Focus more on successful responses to pressure rather than on rapid progress in distance of reach, etc.

A lot of Labs seem to figure out how to turn off pressure without our having to think about it a lot. Some make the wrong assumption and need a little guidance.

Amy Dahl


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

If the sumbitch is that that tough ship him prepaid to Gooser and get another pup!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Remember the trick I discussed with you about the hammer...?
> 
> /Paul


I do remember the hammer trick. That worked well.

I don't think I'll try it with a person though.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Snicklefritz said:


> Thanks, Chris. Got your PM.
> 
> Got the message:
> 
> ...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

UB,

Is there any chance you might post up a video clip of this dog in FF?

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote:

*If the sumbitch is that that tough ship him prepaid to Gooser and get another pup!*

*Ship to:*

*"The Loveing touch!*
*P.O. box, "Man with the slow hands"*
*easy fingers, Colorado!*
*80123*

*Breath mint?*


*Gooser*


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I want a man with a slow hand 
I want a lover with an easy touch 
I want somebody who will spend some time 
Not come and go in a heated rush 
I want somebody who will understand 
When it comes to love I want a slow hand 

:razz:

Gooser


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> I want a man with a slow hand
> I want a lover with an easy touch
> I want somebody who will spend some time
> Not come and go in a heated rush
> ...


Wow, the Force Fetch process has come a long way over the years! 

It has a theme song!!


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Without an ear pinch will the dog open its mouth to take a bumper period or does there need to be a retrieve involved for the dog to pick up a bumper/buck/paint roller etc?

I'm about to start working in on using a FF method that involves the same forms of ear pinch pressure but letting the dog understand the response required without using vocal commands to alleviate the fight of flight process when a dog receives too much pressure that they're not prepared to deal with right away.

The human response when something doesn't go right or we get frustrated is to either elevate our voices or try harder. Hence why my back is all kitty-wampus after playing golf over the weekend in Phoenix. When I sliced my drive into the desert, I pulled out another ball and swung even harder. In my brain it seemed like it made me feel better for getting back at the first balls brother I pulled out of the sleeve of balls. In actuality, slowing the swing showed results.

With dogs, we condition them with body language as puppies, not using commands that they can break... why not do the same when beginning a new command like "fetch?" The program that is a great every step by step process from hold to walking fetch is laid out in a way that it's more of a checklist. After hold came the actual pinching process. Just squeeze enough on the dogs ear to get them to look at the bumper/buck/etc. Releasing the pressure immediately just taught the dog that they can turn the pressure off by seeing what you have in your hand. Continue to the dog touching the bumper and release the pressure. The typical next response is the dog opening their mouth just a little, removing the object and releasing the pressure. I've seen young dogs go through these steps and all the way to having the bumper in their mouth within a 5-10 min session. No screaming, no flailing, just a little bit of pressure to get their attention on their ear, not so much that they can't focus on the object you're trying to get them to take.

Try getting the dog to take the bumper/buck with just enough ear pressure before saying a word other than a form of praise. Once the dog is taking the bumper, then you can associate the word fetch.


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

This response is overwhelming...and much appreciated. 

Let me answer some of the questions. I should have mentioned that I had done quite a bit of "hold" work with him, and yes, I can get his mouth open with a lip pinch and prying. Strangely enough, when giving him pills, I just grab his upper snoot and he opens his mouth so I can drop the pills down his gullet.

His 'hold' training wasn't completed in the form suggested by many writers and pros I follow. He wasn't up to "healing along" with the bumper in his mouth, but he would sit and hold it while I walked around him. He would spit it out when given the 'here' command, so he never 'carried' the bumper while under the 'hold' command. So IMFWBDAO, I decided to go into the FF program, and tie the two segments together. It worked that way with Tank, and several others, but they all yielded to the ear pinch.

This guy is Babe! Comes from Bull, a direct Supertanker pup, and Dottie, a direct Lean Mac pup. He's my Tank-N-Mac grandbabe. He was named so he had 3 directions to go...Babe the blue ox, which he's showing tendancies (28" tall and 100 lbs at 9 months today); Babe the pig, which is appropriate when you watch him eat; and Babe Ruth, which I'm hoping he'll hit a homerun for me.

So as you can see, he's got too much going for him to be sent to MG. He couldn't measure up to those poor mutts that follow the Gooser home that he teaches parlor tricks to...humping the neighbor's leg, eating cookies from an unsuspecting dangling hand...you know, training that MG is adept at teaching.

Again, I appreciate all the suggestions, and among them will come the answer to my dilemma. All the PMs are equally appreciated. I will keep you posted as to when and how the "light" turns on...for both of us.

UB


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## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> Quote:
> 
> *If the sumbitch is that that tough ship him prepaid to Gooser and get another pup!*
> 
> ...


ok. this is pretty funny.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

UB, the toughest dog I've ever seen was also the toughest to FF. He was a 4-5 year old pointer owned by a good friend of mine. Tough, tough dog. Loved to fight porcupines, not that unusual for a pointer, the difference was, he would kill them. I saw him rip open a 6 inch gash on a thigh, the owner put him up on the tailgate, sewed him up, and the dog just stood there while he did it(not a whimper), then hunted another 4 hours. 
Anyway, this dog was a machine, there was no play in him and he could have given a crap about pleasing anyone. My buddy wanted him to retrieve the birds though so he asked me to help. He had already done ear pinch(you could have cut off his ear), toe hitch(same thing), and got no response at all. Honestly, if I had continued adding pressure it would have become more brutality than training and I wasn't going to go there. We went to a two man, two collar system, one pushing buttons, and one putting the dowel in his mouth. We had him going good enough to go to one collar in two sessions, and from there everything went like a charm. I think the collar will be your friend on this one. Easier on you and the dog.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Uncle Bill said:


> This response is overwhelming...and much appreciated.
> 
> Again, I appreciate all the suggestions, and among them will come the answer to my dilemma. All the PMs are equally appreciated. I will keep you posted as to when and how the "light" turns on...for both of us.
> 
> UB


Please do let us know what approach ends up working with this dog. There were a lot of very good responses/experiences that were somewhat different than conventional wisdom.

A good lesson here for me is that you can't always follow what's worked in the past. Dogs are different and sometimes a unique approach is needed to get that "light" turned on.

This thread could be one of those very good and useful "learning" threads. Good Luck.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Does any one here remember the lip clip?Just a thought I havn`t used one in several years and that was an extreme case.Jim


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

afdahl said:


> I've had this happen. I've tried most of the solutions offered, and had them work. I think the problem is most likely that the pressure is a sufficient distraction that even if the dog "knows" you want him to open his mouth, he doesn't see it as a solution. Either the pain is snapping him out of a training frame of mind, or he's interpreting it as a punishment for the indicated action (fetching). So he's clamming in response to pressure--not a response you want him to rehearse.
> 
> 
> Amy Dahl


Never thought of it like that, great insight.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I do remember the hammer trick. That worked well.
> 
> I don't think I'll try it with a person though.


Don't bet on it. I bet if he has to focus on keeping that thing in his mouth, he'll be lessl likely to open it here....

/Paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Don't bet on it. I bet if he has to focus on keeping that thing in his mouth, he'll be lessl likely to open it here....
> 
> /Paul


If someone's holding a hammer and therefore they can't talk, does that mean I am censoring them?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> If someone's holding a hammer and therefore they can't talk, does that mean I am censoring them?


Think of it as behavior modification....

/Paul


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
I've had this happen. I've tried most of the solutions offered, and had them work. I think the problem is most likely that the pressure is a sufficient distraction that even if the dog "knows" you want him to open his mouth, he doesn't see it as a solution. Either the pain is snapping him out of a training frame of mind, or he's interpreting it as a punishment for the indicated action (fetching). So he's clamming in response to pressure--not a response you want him to rehearse.
Amy Dahl

l
Never thought of it like that, great insight.

Amy has it right ...My first inclination would be to go back to teaching the hold command ..since you had him opening the mouth and taking the dowel then ....get the correct behavioral response( to pressure) working again ....Lip pinch will teach the dog how to turn off the pressure...This is what FF is really all about...The learning to deal with pressure with the correct response is a big deal ...Don't move on until you can do the walk and carry portion....If dog drops it just lip pinch and insert the dowel and command hold and try again...Try holding the dogs bottom jaw closed as you try to move forward ...a few steps to begin with is sufficient success.. praise the dog for the effort ...The only short cut to a program is pressure ...Since pressure isn't working ( dog does not comprehend ) you can not short cut ...Go back and follow the steps as prescribed by others you mentioned....Best wishes , please keep us posted on the success of your efforts....Steve S ...
__________________


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Parlor Tricks??? Parlor tricks???? REALLY??????

Really!











Member this PIC??

Dont seems like He's got a problem openin up fer that BOOM BOOM Beer that Garden Knome buddy a yers carted up to your place (without me)

Really! Ya give him BOOM BOOM, then later you speck him to open his mouth again for you!!!:razz:

Gooser
(Ilove Ya Man!)


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> If someone's holding a hammer and therefore they can't talk, does that mean I am censoring them?


Chris,

Yes, you are censoring precisely because you are holding the hammer. You created it, you asked for it. Live with it.

My opinion is that you should listen to 'Peter, Paul and Mary'...

_If I had a hammer,_
_I'd hammer in the mornin'_
_I'd hammer in the evenin'_
_All over this land
I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out a warning
I'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this land
_

Let'er rip brother...I set you free...

I just have one request...start a new thread to do so, and make it a 'one-on-one' conversation, all remarks from the peanut gallery will be deleted.

If you can't do that much, then please stop the sub-text inuendo...it's very unbecoming and, I hope, still beneath you.

Snick


----------



## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Seems to me if you don't like the way things are run at one place, you have every right to do business elsewhere.

You know, Pound Sand!


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Rick_C said:


> Seems to me if you don't like the way things are run at one place, you have every right to do business elsewhere.
> 
> You know, Pound Sand!


 
Seems to me everyone here can speak for themselves...

You know, Pound Sand for Yourself...

Snick


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

God gave us two ears and two eyeballs, but he only gave us one mouth, there is a reason for that.....some people need to remember this when attempting to provide training advice and it is obvious they have very, very limited experience.

FOM


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Seems to me if you don't like the way things are run at one place, you have every right to do business elsewhere.
> 
> You know, Pound Sand!


Hey don't steal my phrase  but I agree...


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> God gave us two ears and two eyeballs, but he only gave us one mouth, there is a reason for that


But Lainee, He gave us 8 fingers and 2 thumbs an', well, this is the internet.


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

I was speakin' to Chris...

But, I see the peanut gallery has arrived... in force...a collection of third world countries and banana republics who weren't invited.

Any one of you is offered the same invitation I gave to Chris. Start a thread, let's discuss it one-on-one, without interruption from the gallery...

Does anyone care to take me up on the offer... or, are you just a bunch of snarks....and, internet dog trainers.

Snick


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Howard N said:


> But Lainee, He gave us 8 fingers and 2 thumbs an', well, this is the internet.


All the more reason to pay attention to what a person "says"....


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> I was speakin' to Chris...
> 
> But, I see the peanut gallery has arrived... in force...a collection of third world countries and banana republics who weren't invited.
> 
> ...


Snick,

I would highly recommend the book: How to Win Friends and Influence People

BTW you are the one that brought a private conversation into the public, looks like you are seeking input from the "peanut gallery" - so you got it. So you can whine and moan all you want....

FOM


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

FOM said:


> Snick,
> 
> I would highly recommend the book: How to Win Friends and Influence People
> 
> ...


I'm not out to win friends and influence people. I'm about dogs, and training them. You can't hide insults behind a private conversation, or the implied threat to reveal a private conversation with me. I have nothing to hide!

I'm not going to spend the evening countering blithering balderdash. I'll check back in the AM to see if anyone cares to have a one-on-one conversation, right out in front of Gawd and everybody.

Snick


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

How old is buddy? How many dogs have you trained? How many dogs have you FF?

The conversation will be short lived....have a good night Snick. And if you knew anything about the book I suggested you would read it....because it is more applicable than you think.

FOM


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Snicklefritz said:


> If you can't do that much, then please stop the sub-text inuendo...it's very unbecoming and, I hope, still beneath you.
> 
> Snick


 
Chuck,
I'd LIke To Buy A Vowel....
cause I need a clue.
I ain't a feared I'll start any thread you like.
Just tell me what you want to know.
Do you want to know what the hammer trick is?

Just tell me what you want, what you realy realy want?



.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Chuck,
> I'd LIke To Buy A Vowel....
> cause I need a clue.
> I ain't a feared I'll start any thread you like.
> ...


KEN!! you spice girl you!!

WRL


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I just wanted to indicate that I have read all of the posts in this thread up to this point.

No other comments.

Chris


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Snicklefritz said:


> I'm not out to win friends and influence people. I'm about dogs, and training them. You can't hide insults behind a private conversation, or the implied threat to reveal a private conversation with me. I have nothing to hide!
> 
> I'm not going to spend the evening countering blithering balderdash. I'll check back in the AM to see if anyone cares to have a one-on-one conversation, right out in front of Gawd and everybody.
> 
> Snick


 

*****"SOM X"*****


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Pals said:


> *****"SOM X"*****


DITTO!!

WRL


----------



## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

Yo Uncle Bill: Snick says don't pay any attention to any of us "internet trainers" cuz we don't know chit.

Hay Snick, this internet trainer has 122 title certificates in my notebook. How many are in your notebook?










And, I'm a long ways from the best or most experienced dog trainer that has responded in this thread.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Dang, I read the title about "doing it" for thirty years and "it" wasn't what I thought. 

My only "difficult" experience with FF was when I started to force a friend's four year old GSP. She was very pleasant during the "getting use to me" time. Teaching her to hold went smoothly. Then, I "softly" pinched her ear and all Hell broke loose. I still don't know how I managed to avoid getting ripped to shreds. Frankly, it was scary. That's when I learned the term "fear biter". Personally, I would prefer the alternative......a closed mouth. 

Mostly, it was about finding a way to bypass a very poor coping skill. Simple stated, a misunderstanding had to be cleared up. Once found, it went well after. 

After reading, there are several excellent alternatives. I'm rooting for you! 

As for the tangent on this thread.....it's been a long winter.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Chuck,....
> 
> Just tell me what you want, what you realy realy want?
> 
> .





WRL said:


> KEN!! you spice girl you!!
> 
> WRL


If you wanna train my doggie, you gotta get with my friends.
Training takes forever, force fetch never ends,
If you wanna be my gun dog, you have got to give,
Taking is too easy, but that's the way it is. ;-)


.


----------



## Bryan Detwiler (Feb 8, 2011)

Surprising how the best, most informative threads always end up like the others...down the chitter. Too bad.


----------



## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Any chance we could get back on topic and find out from Bill if anything has worked for him?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Pals said:


> *****"SOM X"*****


Same here.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd like to keep this on track myself. 

For the record, I did not send a PM to Chuck about Uncle Bill, censorship or force. I asked one question privately and it was about his and Buddy's recent hunt test success and experience.

Happy Birthday to Buddy :bday: . He turns 5 next month.

Chris


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Aw Chris, there you go ruining a good story with the facts again...


----------



## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Any chance we could get back on topic and find out from Bill if anything has worked for him?


 
FWIW, we have gone all the way back to 'hallway' puppy retrieving. it has occurred to me, this dog was allowed to just return to me with the bumper and drop it. He has no concept of the 'drop' command, because he never held it long enough to hear that.

So, little by little, he is starting to 'retrieve to hand', and when he drops it early, he is sat down, and had the dummy placed in his mouth to hold for a short period of time, and then commanded to 'drop'. He's starting to get it, as long as I keep it fun.

This, of course, is not getting him to the real reason for the FF drill, ie learning to turn off pressure. But since I 'taught' him the bad 'trick', I'm now having to teach how it should have been done. 

If I could read his mind, I believe he thinks if the bumper hasn't been thrown for him to retrieve, why should he put it into his mouth just to hand it to me. So, we'll retrench until he understands retrieving isn't over until it's in my hand. Then we'll move on to the "boot camp" portion of the program.

To be continued.

UB

PS What has happened to this thread is nothing new to RTF. In fact, when Ed came on board, that was one of the first things he noticed, and that's what caused the GDG term to be coined...exclusive to RTF, I might add.

I think it's ironic that Ed injected his own GDG into this thread. Go figure eh? But then, it really wouldn't be just your basic RTF "dawg folk" hanging around the tailgate, discussing whatever pops into our minds.;-) It's what we do...and how we do it... that makes us uniquely RTFers, and RTFettes.


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'd like to keep this on track myself.
> 
> For the record, I did not send a PM to Chuck about Uncle Bill, censorship or force. I asked one question privately and it was about his and Buddy's recent hunt test success and experience.
> 
> ...


 
Last night you asked me to stop posting on this thread, and now you want to post your version of the truth without my response...you're spinning the truth Chris...and you know it...that's the hard part for me. Very disappointing...but not going forward. I know who you are now. Your friends will take your side and make you and themselves feel all warm and fuzzy, but you and I know the truth about what you said, when you said it, and how you said it.

Like I said, let's go for the 'No Spin' zone...ready when you are.

Chuck

PS - 'Buddy' says thank you...he thinks


----------



## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'd like to keep this on track myself.
> 
> For the record, I did not send a PM to Chuck about Uncle Bill, censorship or force. I asked one question privately and it was about his and Buddy's recent hunt test success and experience.
> 
> ...


JH or SH test?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> Last night you asked me to stop posting on this thread, and now you want to post your version of the truth without my response...you're spinning the truth Chris...and you know it...that's the hard part for me. Very disappointing...but not going forward. I know who you are now. Your friends will take your side and make you and themselves feel all warm and fuzzy, but you and I know the truth about what you said, when you said it, and how you said it.
> 
> Like I said, let's go for the 'No Spin' zone...ready when you are.
> 
> ...


I can't remember, does buddy have a junior title or a senior title?

I'd explain the hammer technique to you but I'm pretty sure you would use it wrong so I'll suggest the Marshmallow technique. Don't forget to melt the chocolate just right....

/Paul


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

FOM said:


> How old is buddy? How many dogs have you trained? How many dogs have you FF?
> 
> 
> FOM


Lainee lets not bring facts into the conversation!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

tom said:


> Yo Uncle Bill: Snick says don't pay any attention to any of us "internet trainers" cuz we don't know chit.
> 
> Hay Snick, this internet trainer has 122 title certificates in my notebook. How many are in your notebook?
> 
> ...


Very cool Tom. Wish I'd a thought to do something cool like this. I just keep tossing ribbons and docs into a box which stored somewhere around here. Damn my sister for getting all the creativity and artistic ability....

/Paul


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris Miller said:


> JH or SH test?


For the record, an HRC 'Started' title and two 'Senior' passes...

Snick


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm not interested in playing games.

Chuck, you have my permission to post the entire private message exchange. 

I will post verbatim what I sent you privately last night:



> What in the world are you writing on the forum?
> 
> This is really nuts.
> 
> Please knock it off.


So now I'm asking you publicly. This is nuts. It really is. Please knock it off.

I hope you and Buddy have smooth sailing going forward. 

I don't want to play games. Feel free to post our entire private message exchange from this week. I'm OK with that.


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'm not interested in playing games.
> 
> Chuck, you have my permission to post the entire private message exchange.
> 
> ...



OK Brother Chris nuff of this nonsense.

The Spring Chinook are starting up the river, the spring Steelhead are here ( I had a fillet on a cedar plank for supper last night- shoulda been here) and there is LOTS more to life than dealing with this guy.

Talk your boss into an emergency trip out to see the worlds largest newsprint mill. Lord knows we use more chemicals than the Trail Blazers so it might even be a legitimate trip. I'll hook you up with my guy and he will have you holding light tackle with a biggo fish on in NO TIME.

I have a more than adequate supply of expensive Scotch/Irish/American/Mexican libations on hand and fairly clean glasses ready to go.

Life is too short regards

Bubba


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Hey ! Grow ya one of these bad boys,and the clamer will be clamoring to open in three days tops.....


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bubba said:


> OK Brother Chris nuff of this nonsense.
> 
> The Spring Chinook are starting up the river, the spring Steelhead are here ( I had a fillet on a cedar plank for supper last night- shoulda been here) and there is LOTS more to life than dealing with this guy.
> 
> ...


 
Man, you are right about that. Hey, a couple years ago we were out there between Scappoose and St. Helens at a little "hole in the wall" kind of bar. It had a Nascar theme and it was just a flat-top brick building. Supposedly the proprietor was a former chef from a fancy restaurant.

I had cedar plank salmon there and it was incredible. 

I'm in starch now and not snake oil. We don't get much play in newsprint. I have a buddy in Japan who worked at your place for a while. Do you guys make yellow pages also, or is that one of your neighbors?

I greatly appreciate the thought. I doubt I have the trip in my near future...but I can sure value the sentiment almost as much as being there live.

You're right. My mom used to tell me the #1 rule of life was "never argue with an allhose." Sorry mom!

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have a drift boat that would seat you both and love to row. I live 2minutes from the Mckenzie

/Paul


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I think it's "The Art and Science of Handling Retrievers", with Dave Rorem and Rex Carr, where Rex talks about "clammers".

He gives an example of a "tough bitch" that somebody wanted him to see. His evaluation was, that she wasn't "tough" she was a clammer.

He ends up saying, that "if you have a clammer, get rid of it".

It's an informative video, and you get to see Angie B's smiling mug at the beginning too!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I was confused. Rex Carr was not in "The Art and Science of Handling Retrievers".

It was a 1994 seminar. Both titles are available from YBS Media.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> For the record, an HRC 'Started' title and two 'Senior' passes...
> 
> Snick


So in other words your success is in getting a dog a title where delivering to hand is not a requirement. You need to avoid these discussions Snick, they are about raising the bar not diving under it.

/Paul


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I have a drift boat that would seat you both and love to row. * I live 2minutes from the Mckenzie*
> 
> /Paul


Above or below the dam?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So in other words your success is in getting a dog a title where delivering to hand is not a requirement. You need to avoid these discussions Snick, they are about raising the bar not diving under it.
> 
> /Paul



I have taken the time to read the entire thread and see nothing wrong with Chucks first post, where he simply sugested that if force was not working possibaly MORE FORCE was not the answer.
One does not need a lot of "skins" hanging to have made that connection.......

john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I have taken the time to read the entire thread and see nothing wrong with Chucks first post, where he simply sugested that if force was not working possibaly MORE FORCE was not the answer.
> One does not need a lot of "skins" hanging to have made that connection.......
> 
> john


 
John, you are 100% correct with this post. I don't think there is anybody that knows anything about dog training that would disagree with you.

Have a great weekend.

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I have taken the time to read the entire thread and see nothing wrong with Chucks first post, where he simply sugested that if force was not working possibaly MORE FORCE was not the answer.
> One does not need a lot of "skins" hanging to have made that connection.......
> 
> john



John I have said a million times over the years that ff advice on the Internet is practically impossible as the need for more pressure or less changes instantly based on the reaction of the dog. What never changes is foolish advice being given by fools. Thank god fools also believe they should always speak up and prove the are fools.

/Paul


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I have taken the time to read the entire thread and see nothing wrong with Chucks first post, where he simply sugested that if force was not working possibaly MORE FORCE was not the answer.
> One does not need a lot of "skins" hanging to have made that connection.......
> 
> john


I have no issue with his first post either and admit if the dog was mine it would probably be the very first thing I would try - I think it is M's signature line that says it best (a quote from Mitch)

I do how ever take exception to his follow of posts. It is obvious he is anti-FF, anti-collar, but it is obvious the original poster is not and that is the way the dog is eventually going to be trained, so no need to try and preach UB into a new religion, nor continue to try and beat the dead horse.

I was anti-collar, anti-FFwhen I first started due to the exposures I have had and to this day I want to strap the collar to one particular guy and light his @$$ up (he still uses one of the first style collars with one setting...) however I didn't turn my nose up to those using collars and FF rather I used the gifts God gave me to learn objectively about the subject, find better trainers to work with. 

If Snick is going to be anti-force of any kind, then don't piss and moan because you struggle with those skills that are reinforced by the training you do not embrace. When you choose a different path be prepared to walk it no matter where it takes you and meet those challenges.

I am following this thread cause any little nugget you can gain, I'm all for...i have no advice to offer cause I don't feel qualified having FF only a handful of dogs.

FOM


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> John I have said a million times over the years that ff advice on the Internet is practically impossible as the need for more pressure or less changes instantly based on the reaction of the dog. What never changes is foolish advice being given by fools. Thank god fools also believe they should always speak up and prove the are fools.
> 
> /Paul


Very true...be careful though Paul, someone may want to take you literally. It probably wasn't quite one million....but it was a lot.

John, please don't take Paul literally on the "million". As I wrote earlier John, of course, you are right in your post.

Chris


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Oh yeah that's also why I recommended the book I did, if Snick really wanted to win friends and influence them into a gentler form of training then he would of ended his comments with his first post, all he did was turn those off which had actually thought - "yup good advice." - but instead he brought a personal conversation out into the public, issued challenges and in return we circled the wagons....never ever get defensive and challenging to your opponent when you are debating, you will rarely ever win the debate.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Very true...be careful though Paul, someone may want to take you literally. It probably wasn't quite one million....but it was a lot.
> 
> John, please don't take Paul literally on the "million". As I wrote earlier John, of course, you are right in your post.
> 
> Chris


I'm counting the times I wrote it on other boards like Victoria Stillwells forum. Actually Snick could go over there and be an expert. Perhaps it's just a matter of right advice wrong forum. After all she is expert herself, what with the failed acting career turned dog walker canine expert.

/Paul


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Very true...be careful though Paul, someone may want to take you literally. It probably wasn't quite one million....but it was a lot.
> 
> John, please don't take Paul literally on the "million". As I wrote earlier John, of course, you are right in your post.
> 
> Chris


I won't take him literally on the million thing Chris, nor in spite of his pejoratives will I draw anything derogatory when noting his number of posts :razz:

john


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I won't take him literally on the million thing Chris, nor in spite of his pejoratives will I draw anything derogatory when noting his number of posts :razz:
> 
> john


 Well John you probably hate the fact most of my posts become meliorations when people agree with me.


/Paul


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well John you probably hate the fact most of my posts become meliorations when people agree with me.
> 
> 
> /Paul


meliorations ?? You have the better of me on that one.

One must watch out when using big words;-)

just sayin...

john


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well John you probably hate the fact most of my posts become meliorations when people agree with me.
> 
> 
> /Paul


"The linguistic process by which a word over a period of time grows more elevated in meaning or more positive in connotation"

More positive? Really? How can it be more positive when John Hates it?


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Meliorate: A derivative of ameliorate meaning to take something bad and make it better. (sounds like a Beatles song!). Paul could you explain your sentence to me? Who is getting better with each of your posts, you or John?


----------



## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

It's disapointing that the excellent advice of Steve S. and Amy Dahl (#35 and #53) who took the time to respond to the original training dilemna is now lost in the derailment of this thread. Somtimes the pack mentality of RTF reminds me of high school, even pulling the moderators into the fray.

By the way, what Steve S. and Amy Dahl both suggested has worked well for me in those dogs that clam up and internalize pressure.


----------



## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Jay Dufour said:


> Hey ! Grow ya one of these bad boys,and the clamer will be clamoring to open in three days tops.....


 
That, good buddy, is a beauty. Only guy I knew that had one like it, was Steve Blythe. He was my teacher back in the 80's. Taught me the CC program and FF'd my CLMs. Luke was a serious 'clammer', but with a thumb nail like that, he was FF'd better than any dog I ever had. He also sported the largest batch of 1/2 moon scars on his ears than any dog in the Dakotas.

Babe is coming along gradually. He's retrieving to hand more frequently, but he just doesn't understand why yet. Starting to 'allow' his mouth to be opened easily, and accepting the dummy for holding. I'm using the F word, so he becomes familier with hearing it, so when the pinching begins, he will know what the term means. His attitude at this point is excellant, so we continue along making slow progress.

UB


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

frontier said:


> It's disapointing that the excellent advice of Steve S. and Amy Dahl (#35 and #53) who took the time to respond to the original training dilemna is now lost in the derailment of this thread. Somtimes the pack mentality of RTF reminds me of high school, even pulling the moderators into the fray.
> 
> By the way, what Steve S. and Amy Dahl both suggested has worked well for me in those dogs that clam up and internalize pressure.


 
Terrie, 

Uncle Bill has thanked folks early on in this thead for the overwhelming response. Uncle Bill has more recently posted an update with progress. I don't think Uncle Bill "lost" the value he sought.

Equally unfortunate is that some folks want to continually turn discussions about training questions into scenarios that make them the victim. Feel free to search certain participants in this discussion and the repeat behaviors and generally unproductive outcomes of those behaviors.

It is obvious that some participants here have had their fill of some repeat behavior and are expressing it.

I agree that pack mentality can happen on a forum like this. IN this case, what you call Pack Mentality, I call folks chiming in to address generally unproductive behavior.

I will never make everybody happy on this forum. The purpose of the resource is to gain and share knowledge. It is not to play games in a hateful manner. When that stuff happens, there will be times when actions will be taken to try and snuff it.

Chris - a human whose really and truly trying to keep this resource clean-side-up.


----------



## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Man, you are right about that. Hey, a couple years ago we were out there between Scappoose and St. Helens at a little "hole in the wall" kind of bar. It had a Nascar theme and it was just a flat-top brick building. Supposedly the proprietor was a former chef from a fancy restaurant.
> 
> I had cedar plank salmon there and it was incredible.
> 
> ...


The way I put this is never argue with an idiot its like wrestling with a pig in mud pretty soon you find out the pig likes it. Seems to me to be a good reason to want to "one on one with anyone" Pig needs a wrestling match.

There has been a lot of really good advice on here though on FF. Only experience I've had with one like that is to take some tome off. He was like UB's dog young and big it seemed his mind wasn't ready for FF yet as everything was going into growing. Great on retrieves very slow and reluctant on FF. His sisters on the other hand FFd quickly. After we gave him a break it was as easy as could be.


----------



## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Coo. 

This thread certainly brightened up a dull day, you'd think it was the cure for cancer not dog training. Thousands have been killed in Japan and the rest of the population have to bury their dead and rebuild their society whilst checking the Geiger counter. Differences of opinion about retrievers seem a trifle piddling in comparison; certainly not worth heated debate.

Just a thought though from a non FF, non collar trainer. Uncle Bill is to be commended for realising that in spite of his previous success and experience he wasn't getting anywhere, and needed a re-think. 

Knowing nothing of FF (and not wanting to very much ) my first thought on reading his description of the dogs reaction was .... "I don't think the dog understands what is required". The responses by Amy and others seem to confirm that, as did UB's further clarifications.

So, a good result that reinforces the value of standing back, taking a deep breath,and asking for help. Also a good demonstration of Colonel Blimps First Law of Dog Embuggerances ... If he doesn't do what is wanted it's Pound to a pinch of snuff he doesn't know what is wanted. 

Eug


----------



## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Colonel Blimp said:


> So, a good result that reinforces the value of standing back, taking a deep breath,and asking for help. Also a good demonstration of Colonel Blimps First Law of Dog Embuggerances ... If he doesn't do what is wanted it's Pound to a pinch of snuff he doesn't know what is wanted.
> 
> Eug


LOL! Worth reading the whole thread to get to this. I'm glad you contribute here notwithstanding your many differences with prevailing methods. I agree with your First Law 100%, but even more, I love the way you put it.

I would say something more pedestrian such as, "you rarely go wrong treating a failure as a lack of understanding." 

UB, sounds like the smaller steps approach is a good solution. Hope you continue to get progress.

Amy Dahl


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Also a good demonstration of Colonel Blimps First Law of Dog Embuggerances ... If he doesn't do what is wanted it's Pound to a pinch of snuff he doesn't know what is wanted.
> 
> Eug


So now it's dogs too???? I knew you Limeys were into sheep and like that but this whole dog thing is news to me.

Guess it's why yall wear skirts regards

Bubba


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

*FOM said:*



> If Snick is going to be anti-force of any kind, then don't piss and moan because you struggle with those skills that are reinforced by the training you do not embrace. When you choose a different path be prepared to walk it no matter where it takes you and meet those challenges.


Please, please...pretty please...(I'm really beggin and groveling here...) quote a single example that shows me pissing and moaning about the training methods I have chosen...

I have indeed chosen a different path...and I have no regrets, and I walk it every day. And, you have heard not a single complaint from me.

For all you newbs out there, FOM's post is a classic example of how a very experienced, well respected and, even, 'revered' member of this forum (whom you _should_ pay attention to) can get it _all wrong_, precisely because they have already decided...

_Caveat Lector_ indeed!

Snick


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Bubba said:


> So now it's dogs too???? I knew you Limeys were into sheep and like that but this whole dog thing is news to me.
> 
> Guess it's why yall wear skirts regards
> 
> Bubba


Colonel Blimp, 

I really have no standing to apologize for Bubba's utter lack of taste...but, I am embarrased none the less.

Chuck


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> *FOM said:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chuck, here is an example of what she's referencing:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63436&highlight=force

This guy was seeking *experienced *assistance in understanding terminology around modern North American FT/HT training methods. You started in post 12. 

While one can debate FOM's word choices all they want, the fact is that your off-the-wall response, derailed much of the dialogue. It is far from the first time.

Please just walk-the-talk. If you're going to offer up criticisms and such whem folks are legitimately seeking valid feedback, please offer up something that has some validated results behind it.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bubba said:


> So now it's dogs too???? I knew you Limeys were into sheep and like that but this whole dog thing is news to me.
> 
> Guess it's why yall wear skirts regards
> 
> Bubba


Brother Bubba, you have confused the Scots with the Brits. I got married in a kilt, in Scotland to a Scottish chick. My father-in-law, was very tentative about the whole thing. He told my wife when we were dating that if my last name was "Atkinson", I was English and she should drop me immediately.

I don't think the English like skirts or sheep.

I will tell you though, that the British working retrievers I've been exposed to, on their soil, were truly wonderful animals that any American would be proud to own and shoot/hunt over.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> *FOM said:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chuck, here's your introduction to RTF back in October of 2007:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18834&highlight=silver



> I’ll tell you right up front that I don’t believe Force Fetch is the silver bullet for training all retrievers. But, my dog has been trained to pick up anything I tell him too and hold on to it until I say ‘Drop’. He is very reliable. And, boy does this dog love to retrieve. Also, I can see a use for e-collars. But, again, they are not the silver bullet for all dogs and all situations, in my humble opinion.


Here's the key paragraph in that post.

There are plenty of data points between that intro post and the post to Rjambar about the "lack of scientific data" around FF.

This is what Lainee is referencing. 

If folks are seeking assistance about a standardized program. If they are clearly looking to make that standardized program work, your insertions of anti-standardized program posts are frequently disruptive and not of much true training value. 

When they blow up into defensive-crazy challenges for word battles, they derail the whole purpose of the person seeking help. 

Please use RTF for value. I sincerely hope that you and Buddy accomplish all that you want using the training methods you believe in. I just wish you'd stop knocking proven methods that well-meaning folks are trying to discuss. 

Thanks, Chris


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Here are a couple a Pics of the Uncle Bill I know and love to death!!



















He had Passed his young dog the day before in Seasoned. The social went late that night, and Bill didnt want to get wet.
The plan was to "Get Him" the next day, just before his judging assignment.

He was just finishing up his handlers meeting when a "slub" snuck up behind him and gave him the cold 5 gallon bucket.

I dropped the bucket and ran like a school kid from the playgound "tomboy":razz:

I am NOT lookin forward to the day when Its gonna be MY turn and Bill will do the dousin!! I just bet he will hold Gooser by both feet, dunkin him head first til he sees bubbles!:razz:

I cant speak for Bill, but I know fer fact that he could give a HOOT what guys like Me or Chuck give for advice! I just bet he runs everthin through a filter, and weeds out what he wants to listen to, and who he doesnt.

He has way to much class and strong convictions to chastise anybody as to their input, especially when he asked for it.

Chuck,,

Bill will forget more about dogs and trainin than you or I will ever gain in BOTH our lifetimes!! He is VERY dedicated to his own beliefs and convictions.

It is VERY true what he said about Goosers dogs being taught Parlor tricks when compared the the accomplishments he and His dog Bull attained!!

It still fun to rib him though!!

Gooser


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Gooser,

Hahaha I remember that weekend fondly....I do recall I picked Flash up on a blind, he was giving me the paw (would of been his HRCH title running under UB)!

I miss HRC....but I'm a white coater these days.

FOM


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Gooser, I would not have wet a judge just before he took his chair during a test! I realize you like to appear the "duffus" now and then, but you should not have shown an example of your woodworking ability sometime back. Anyone who does work like that can't be ALL nuts. (A little funny, but not completely nuts.

Chris, on your forum I have the choice of whose posts I read. I now have two on the list that I won't spend my now limited time to read. I probably am not alone. I do appreciate you taking your time and effort to host an excellant forum and I find it quite informative. I most sincerly THANK YOU, Bill


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Chuck, .....
> 
> I sincerely hope that you and Buddy accomplish all that you want using the training methods you believe in.
> 
> Thanks, Chris


Chris, Chuck! I found a great training theme song for buddy 
click - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUt0AUDfHvo


.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Ken that was great! Hang on that to that one for the next few thousand FF threads. Pretty well boils it down to the basics don't it?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

..... i think we lost a chicken.....






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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Chris, Chuck! I found a great training theme song for buddy
> click - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUt0AUDfHvo
> 
> 
> .





2tall said:


> Ken that was great! Hang on that to that one for the next few thousand FF threads. Pretty well boils it down to the basics don't it?


 
yes, it does.

just a bump to

a: how is the dog in the OP doing?
b: snick, did you not like the Zac Brown tune?



.


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

I just stood up from a FF session with a dog and remembered this post. Dog does wonderfully holding and releasing a dowel. Yesterday (day one) was no progress with the ear pinch. She just stays in her own little world and keeps her mouth tightly shut. Upping the ear presssure is clearly not the answer. Day two (30 min ago) was immediate progress using the toe-hitch. 

For what it's worth. 

Robert






Bill Watson said:


> UB, I can only tell you about a fellow I helped with the Toe Hitch. He was going to use pliers on a Golden and I couldn't stand that. He did not know how (or understaand ) how to do the two half hitches on the carple joint and then a half hitch on the middle toes. He did not have a table, so we tied the dog to a pole in his barn so that the dog was sitting on the ground. I took about 3+ feet of braided shade cord,put the two half hitches on the right leg and the half hitch around the two middle toes, knelt down out of reach of the dog and with the dowel in my right hand GENTLY AND CAREFULLY put pressure on the cord. SHE OPENED HER MOUTH! We are both built alike (I don't like that remark anymore than you do) and I could do it. I hope it will work with your problem. JUST BE CAREFUL WITH THE PRESSURE ON THE TOES.
> 
> My hunt with you several years ago did wonders for David and I appreciate the time you put in with us. Tell your wife I said, Yes, I guess I'm a Red Neck too. Bill


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> thinkin' the same. old Chessie trick for when they don't open up and are being harder than hard.........
> Let go of the collar, stand up and set back a step. Take your item, training *buck or bumper........
> and toss it to them. Say fetch when you do it.
> they will grab it out of the air. say good dog.
> ...



Ken,"that's Genus" to get the ball rolling. Blowing in the nose works great as well.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

For people in the depths of depression FFing a dog with little/no response to pressure........

I owned a dog that *NEVER once* opened his mouth in response to "discomfort", ear/toe or collar.

He was entered in 4 Derbies and placed 4th/2nd and 1st.

I believe he placed in every Q he ran [5-6] and QAA.

He'd JAMed an Open then I quit running trials.

After a year and a half off he carried a new [never had a trained retriever] owner to MH/GMHR titles and Qed for the MN a couple times.

So much for FF doctrine.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I like it when the older threads come back up, how did UB's pup that started this thread turn out??



.


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