# can the working man/woman compete in FT's?



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

so i was talking to someone i know that just runs hunt test and he says the working man/woman cant competitevly run in field trials. not enough time to train for it if you dont get off till 6pm and get to field at 7 and dark soon after. he said he would bet that the avg age of the field trialer that gets truly involved is 55 and over. wonder what yall think. seems with the use of a pro the working man could have a good dog but how do some of yall get it done that work normal hours. being a firefighter and working 3 days a week makes it a little easier or if you own your own business and make your own hours but some of the business owners i know work more thn the avg person.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Sure they can; start with a good horse, good grey matter, good training partners. Field trial training is all about tunnel vision, see where you want to be and work like heck to get there even if it takes years.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

It can be done. It just depends on how bad you want it and what you are willing to sacrifice. If you are a competitive person, jump on in. There is plenty to learn and do at the Derby and Qual level. Find a club and a FT training group. Train for FT and you can run HT too.


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Trained by myself while working full time and raising a family. Result AFC Bams Liberty Bell. AK Libby, my avitar. Anything is possable.

Bill


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

last time I checked both Ted S. and Dr A were still working


I have mentioned this fact before, but there is the misconception that people have about the FT game and the most prevalent excuses are

1. lack of funds; kind of a misnomer, its the lack of DISPOSABLE, discretionary income that separates being able to campaign a dog(s),and all that come with that (pro,birds,entry fees,lodging, travel fees,) and of course being away from work

2. lack of grounds :that is becoming more and more true as the years go on. for example Lanse has some great grounds in Montana, but for the ten days I spent with him, we didn't train there at all..His dogs know every piece of ground on the property and he is always in search of fresh new areas to train

3.lack of time : the biggest hurdle that drives many away from the game is the commitment they have toward family, marriage,career..Its very difficult to have all three, just aren't enough hours in the day


the average blue collar worker can't match, the Medfords and Rasmussens of the retriever world, few if any can....but you're not trying to match their lifestyle, only their sport of choice..As for the age thing, its obvious that a person's prime earning years are well before their 50's so that may account for the lack of younger people coming to the sport..They may visit for a few years but when it comes to getting that second or third dog, they may do some soul searching and decide that they would rather spend their time and money elsewhere in other pursuits/hobbies


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

The key ingredients are time, money, and quality of dog and training. An excess of one of these can help cover a deficiency in one of the others. A deficiency in two of them makes it a near impossibility.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Trevor Toberny said:


> *so i was talking to someone i know that just runs hunt test *


This was the first problem if you really want to know something about trials.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

*The Record of the Amateur Speaks & Bodes Well for the Future!*

A men, Ed!!

The competitive Amateur is alive and well. I got into the game as a direct result of love of hunting &
a strong competitive spirit. Thanks to great associations with professional icons and the good fortune
to own competitive animals, the enduring confidence in a great dog as well as in myself sustained my
participation.

Yes, all of that translates to success as well as overcoming untimely set backs. The game/sport is not
for the faint of heart and mandates the basics of commitment, consistency and a thick skin when the
going gets rough.

I will always remember the folks that I met in the game who did so much for me and my retrievers.

Bill Connor


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

The whole "I can't compete because I don't have time/money/grounds/etc." thing is an excuse for LOSERS. Get a good dog, work hard, become a student of the game and see where you stack up.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Can it be done? Yes

Can it easily be done? No...

Field trials are hard, ridiculously hard. It's a lot of fun when it goes well. It hardly ever goes well.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

incite class warfare? how in the world is that? because ive heard multiple times then it was brought up again that someone doesnt think they can run or compete at the field trial level due to work hours, time to put into training? i dont exactly think FT are exactly poverty stricken either. 
and you dont have to get involved in my "petty" topics. Sorry that my topics such as this and breeding requirements for fc afc hit you the wrong way. i guess all the times i have seen you write the bitch line is just as important or find a dog with the best bitch line would mean that a fc afc shouldnt just be bred to any ole bitch out there that is of breeding age with health testing. 
sorry, i should have said i dont like the aggies football team.. that is my opinion and not anything torwards the university itself.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

i also hear people all the time saying there needs to be new blood and people from the younger generation to keep things going for future. just wondered how many people in the younger generation can do that if they work long hours.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

my post didnt say anything about how much someone makes, i asked about working people that work long hours and dont have long to train. just because i said a business owner doesnt mean they automatically have money.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Trevor Toberny said:


> incite class warfare? how in the world is that? because ive heard multiple times then it was brought up again that someone doesnt think they can run or compete at the field trial level due to work hours, time to put into training? i dont exactly think FT are exactly poverty stricken either.
> and you dont have to get involved in my "petty" topics. Sorry that my topics such as this and breeding requirements for fc afc hit you the wrong way. i guess all the times i have seen you write the bitch line is just as important or find a dog with the best bitch line would mean that a fc afc shouldnt just be bred to any ole bitch out there that is of breeding age with health testing.
> sorry, i should have said i dont like the aggies football team.. that is my opinion and not anything torwards the university itself.


I believe someone needs to develop a thin skin *AND* help those who have an interest and the spirit to take the ride.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> The whole "I can't compete because I don't have time/money/grounds/etc." thing is an excuse for LOSERS. Get a good dog, work hard, become a student of the game and see where you stack up.


This! A small but dedicated training group reall helps to. About ten years ago we had a good group of five working guys who got together three or four times a week. We all scouted for grounds, built relationships with farmers and land owners, and were reliable. If you know what you are doing and are organized you can accomplish a full days pro setup in 2 1/2 hours for six amateur dogs. Our group had quite a bit of success including an FC-AFC, multiple QAA dogs, MHs and a Golden who retired with an Open win.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks John for your helpful response. thats the kind of stuff i wondered.


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## Malcolm (Oct 13, 2006)

Trevor Toberny said:


> so i was talking to someone i know that just runs hunt test and he says the working man/woman cant competitevly run in field trials. not enough time to train for it if you dont get off till 6pm and get to field at 7 and dark soon after. he said he would bet that the avg age of the field trialer that gets truly involved is 55 and over. wonder what yall think. seems with the use of a pro the working man could have a good dog but how do some of yall get it done that work normal hours. being a firefighter and working 3 days a week makes it a little easier or if you own your own business and make your own hours but some of the business owners i know work more thn the avg person.


It's more about do you have the knowledge and attention to detail to properly prepare your dog for competition. Let's talk about work ethic as opposed to time. Grounds, with knowing how to use them is part of the problem for most. If you present well and and do your research you can and will find grounds. Have patience and optimize the time you do have. "Learn to train your own dog"!! It will make you a better competitor and future judge for the sport!! Sucess is not about quick fixes and short cuts!!


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

How many trialers are there with full time jobs, wives, kids in sports etc... I do agree that where there is a will there is a way, but at what cost? I respect and envy those who are able to prosper and compete in these great games. I really want to be a part of this yet there is truly no time for me. So I decided to use a Pro. Now I don't have a dog at home, my wife doesn't understand why so much money goes out each month ( she is a city girl), my daughter wants her dog home. My priorities are my family, maybe I need to wait until the kids have moved out. Is this more of a retired persons game? Am I the only one that struggles with this?


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Clint, this is kinda why i asked this. this page has ALOT of newbies that visit it and I have heard multiple times that in regards to field trials " isnt that for people that are retired and are snowbirds" isnt that for people " who are retrired whos kids are gone" etc etc etc. I know its NOT just about money.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Clint Watts said:


> How many trialers are there with full time jobs, wives, kids in sports etc... I do agree that where there is a will there is a way, but at what cost? I respect and envy those who are able to prosper and compete in these great games. I really want to be a part of this yet there is truly no time for me. So I decided to use a Pro. Now I don't have a dog at home, my wife doesn't understand why so much money goes out each month ( she is a city girl), my daughter wants her dog home. My priorities are my family, maybe I need to wait until the kids have moved out. Is this more of a retired persons game? Am I the only one that struggles with this?


No, we all struggle. The FC-aFC guy I alluded to in my previous post had to retire his dog a age six, peak of his career with 38 AA points due to an ultimatum from his wife. He had three boys to raise. When our training group dissolved I had to go pro, you need somebody to throw birds. Most all FT amateur trainers are retired, it's much easier for the complete amateur to do hunt test. I was just pointing out that with the right circumstances it is possible to do it on your own, but still requires some sacrifice.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> No, we all struggle. The FC-aFC guy I alluded to in my previous post had to retire his dog a age six, peak of his career with 38 AA points due to an ultimatum from his wife. He had three boys to raise. When our training group dissolved I had to go pro, you need somebody to throw birds. Most all FT amateur trainers are retired, it's much easier for the complete amateur to do hunt test. I was just pointing out that with the right circumstances it is possible to do it on your own, but still requires some sacrifice.


Very good points John, but lets not forget the single folks out there male or female who have an interest in our sport and are sitting on the fence.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

We all make choices. Field trialing by its very nature is competitive. Hunt test and the HRC are competitive to a standard and as such maybe less demanding of the time to achieve the performance levels to the extreme. Regardless a good dog is a good dog. I have no doubt dogs in the Hunt Test and the HRC can compete in field trials. Some go back and forth between them successfully. Worry less about the destination and focus on the ride. 
There are enough good people on this forum who can tell their own personal story which would be captivating to read, of their sacrifice and hard work to achieve something with their dog(s). Maybe with time we will have a chance to read of it. They all made choices, some left the game, perhaps with regret, others are still hanging in there, perhaps with regret. Obviously all who remain have come to enjoy the journey.

You need some key ingredients as mentioned earlier. The folks that have written of what it takes have written of that articulately. 

The singular thing that stands out for me is the whether I see it in person or read about on it this forum is the general lack of pre-planning and preparation by the individual getting their first competitive dog. If you have success from the get go, you will likely remain imprinted for life.

We are in the best years of the this sport, the dogs, the trainers and wealth of information, be it in print or digital images. We all make choices, some will stay by hearth and home and other while others will venture forth; with the sleet turning to ice pellets, the wind rushing through the trees, stripping the last dried leaves twig and branch. The white caps have the blocks rising, pitching and nearly disappearing in the troughs of the waves. They come hurtling into set. We all make choices.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Trevor Toberny said:


> Clint, this is kinda why i asked this. this page has ALOT of newbies that visit it and I have heard multiple times that in regards to field trials " isnt that for people that are retired and are snowbirds" isnt that for people " who are retrired whos kids are gone" etc etc etc. I know its NOT just about money.


Just depends on how bad you want it. I was in my 30's when I trained my first titled dog. It was hard on the job and relationships... But we all make choices. Anything can be done if one wants to do it. Just do it. Everything else is just talk. 

Does help to have an understanding spouse...


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Tomorrow I will be in my chair at work at 7AM or a little after, and I won't be home until 6PM or after. I worked a good portion of the day last Saturday (most Saturdays actually) and I worked most of the day today. If I am not in my chair I am losing money. Setting aside grounds, money, and know-how for a minute, how in the world do you even attempt to train a dog, much less be a competitive field trailer, regardless of how bad you want to, with a work schedule like that?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

RookieTrainer said:


> Tomorrow I will be in my chair at work at 7AM or a little after, and I won't be home until 6PM or after. I worked a good portion of the day last Saturday (most Saturdays actually) and I worked most of the day today. If I am not in my chair I am losing money. Setting aside grounds, money, and know-how for a minute, how in the world do you even attempt to train a dog, much less be a competitive field trailer, regardless of how bad you want to, with a work schedule like that?


You don't. 
This endeavor is not for everyone.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> The whole "I can't compete because I don't have time/money/grounds/etc." thing is an excuse for LOSERS. Get a good dog, work hard, become a student of the game and see where you stack up.


So is the Amateur stake, the owner handler stakes, the derby, the Qual, the specialty stakes...

Anyone who makes a comment about it being harder to compete in a field trial when they work a 40+ hour a week 9 to 5 job and don't have a grand a month to pay a pro trainer & entry fees gets slammed as being loser, sissy, whatever...

I guess none of the critics run those lesser stakes. After all, the sole reason those stakes exist is because someone couldn't compete in the open stake. 

I know one thing... My access to some great training grounds and my flex schedule at work allowing me 3 day weekend every other week, and tbe decent wage I earn gives me an advantage over a lot of people. To say that it doesn't exist is lying to yourself. 

Another thing I know, is that I love to see the 40 hour a week, train your own dog folks out there taking their swings. Every now an then we scratch out a little color. It's very satisfying to be in the 4th series and know your running against some dogs that the owner has spent more money in training bills than I spent on my house.

The NY Yankees have advantage over the Milwaukee Brewers. It is what it is. It's undeniable.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ironwood said:


> *We all make choices*. Field trialing by its very nature is competitive. Hunt test and the HRC are competitive to a standard and as such maybe less demanding of the time to achieve the performance levels to the extreme. Regardless a good dog is a good dog. I have no doubt dogs in the Hunt Test and the HRC can compete in field trials. Some go back and forth between them successfully. Worry less about the destination and focus on the ride.
> There are enough good people on this forum who can tell their own personal story which would be captivating to read, of their sacrifice and hard work to achieve something with their dog(s). Maybe with time we will have a chance to read of it. They all made choices, some left the game, perhaps with regret, others are still hanging in there, perhaps with regret. Obviously all who remain have come to enjoy the journey.
> 
> You need some key ingredients as mentioned earlier. The folks that have written of what it takes have written of that articulately.
> ...


Amen!!!!!!!!


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

captainjack said:


> So is the Amateur stake, the owner handler stakes, the derby, the Qual, the specialty stakes...
> 
> Anyone who makes a comment about it being harder to compete in a field trial when they work a 40+ hour a week 9 to 5 job and don't have a grand a month to pay a pro trainer & entry fees gets slammed as being loser, sissy, whatever...
> 
> ...


Thank you Glen, one thing I do know is that I am not a loser. I have refrained from commenting on this because I felt it would not add value. Be the peanut.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

captainjack said:


> So is the Amateur stake, the owner handler stakes, the derby, the Qual, the specialty stakes...
> 
> Anyone who makes a comment about it being harder to compete in a field trial when they work a 40+ hour a week 9 to 5 job and don't have a grand a month to pay a pro trainer & entry fees gets slammed as being loser, sissy, whatever...
> 
> ...


Think objective on what he is saying and not be subjective.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Charles C. said:


> The whole "I can't compete because I don't have time/money/grounds/etc." thing is an excuse for LOSERS.* Get a good dog, work hard, become a student of the game and see where you stack up.*


This is ones goal....


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

There are two guys that have graced the sport in the last decade and both had success one went all the way to the top of the game- twice. But what I admire about both of these guys (whom I consider friends) is that they stepped away from the sport in order to take care of their kids. Maybe it was an easy decision,maybe not. I think the latter.

I like how they have their priorities right. Hope they return to the game when their lives allow it because they both bring a lot to the table,besides talent


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> Think objective on what he is saying and not be subjective.


Wth are you saying? 

If you reply to my post and want me to understand what you're writing, then you'll have to not write in riddles.

Edit: if your reply is for the benefit of others, carry on.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

captainjack said:


> Wth are you saying?
> 
> If you reply to my post and want me to understand what you're writing, then you'll have to not write in riddles.
> 
> Edit: if your reply is for the benefit of others, carry on.


I am not going there...Nice try...
Those who understand know.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

It depends on what you do for work. No way you're going to work like I do & be competitive without a trainer. I mean absolutely no way. Other people who have flexible hours and time off, it's doable (With monetary funds, training grounds, depending on the time of their life, ability to train with a good group, more monetary funds, & more free time. I forgot, there's monetary funds & time that you will need in abundance.).


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

We all play the game at the level we can. To call those losers who aren't at the top level is poor form.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

If a handler has to stand in the winners circle every weekend, to consider himself successful, then tiddlywinks is the hobby for him.
No doubt, that amateurs who are shift workers, have a time advantage.
There is no shortage of current examples of amateurs enjoying success with their wholly amateur trained club members and dogs in the Niagara area. Full time working stiffs, who do what they must, to learn and compete. (I work plenty of overtime to fund my costs outside of the family budget). Success comes slower this way, but it is gratifying when it happens. 
The comments prior to mine in this thread could not be better stated. If it was easy, it wouldn't be worth doing.
Yes it costs money to compete, but, you compete according to your budget. You can train all you like for a lot less money, and to me that is as valuable as any use of my time.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

My 37 year FT observation is that if you have never tested yourself and achieved your standard of excellence do not come to the FT world , transfer your un-achieved aims to dogs and expect happiness.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Trevor Toberny said:


> being a firefighter and working 3 days a week makes it a little easier


That is the job to have. Around here most of the top ams are fire fighters.


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> I am not going there...Nice try...
> Those who understand know.


And very few if any are they.


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## pstrombeck (Feb 11, 2012)

In my observation a small group of dedicated AM's can compete. Overall most cannot. Do you have the resources to travel south for at least brief periods during cold weather months if you live on the north? Obviously the dogs you're competing against are being trained 12 months a year. If you get a washout can you sell your pupil after the kids have bonded to him or her? Do you hunt your dog? I am an avid hunter waterfowl and upland hunter which often creates issues when running tests. Do have one of the 'other breeds"? FT's are basically a lab dominated sport. We just changed breeds and no longer run labs. Given stature and temperament my dog can not work at the required distances or bear the training pressure required to succeed. I am more than happy to play the other stakes and judge my success with in the standard and capabilities of the breed I now choose to own. 
........


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I would never fault a family man putting their kids and their needs and activities first before training for field trials. Many FTlers have had to curtail their activities or their marriages go south with or without kids. Second marriages seemed to work if both were FTlers. I was always involved, but I shelved competition several times in my life, and now again because these will be my only Grandkids I have and they are close. Family should always come first, and providing for that family adequately. Once my kids were in college I had a great time traveling. It's all what you want to get out of life. Field Trials are much more difficult than they were 15 years ago. Do you want to look back and say I spent all this money or time chasing ribbons that never materialized to the family that remembers you never being around, being at a trial, or never helped with college tuition? Kids shouldered with college debt impacts them for years. It also helps to have a very, very good dog. Everyone thinks they are going to have the next LeanMac or Lottie. The truth is most are not even close. That is also the reason many FTlers are older and retired.

Amateurs that were competitive while working Mitch Patterson, Earl Dillow, Dick Dallesasse, Chris Van E also took time to help other amateurs.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I find it easier working PT, but commitments & situations around the home take priority. Not being in an area where training is easily accessible; I train alone mostly. Costs associated w/ traveling to opportunities can mount. Wear & tear on your vehicle as well. So you are selective. Just had to purchase a new vehicle this year. 
To participate in FT you need to be dedicated, listen, work hard to understand what is the expectation. Being consistent & doing effective work every day w/ your dog is what will pay off. JMO


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

John Lash said:


> Can it be done? Yes
> 
> Can it easily be done? No...
> 
> Field trials are hard, ridiculously hard. It's a lot of fun when it goes well. It hardly ever goes well.


I like this a lot. It fits in with your other signature lines.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

I second what others have said here. The best way for the "everyman" to succeed might just be a dedicated training group, the willingness to go train when a free moment arises, lots of planning regarding what concepts to teach/reinforce when and where, and lots of patience. I've been fortunate to hook up with a great group whose dogs range from qual level to major stake winners. One of the guys I am fortunate enough to train with on occasion has been competing at the highest level in this sport since my parents were in diapers. He's trained something like 11 AFC's without sending his dogs to a pro, so it can be done. The other observation I've made from my group: All but one of them judge on a fairly regular basis. This, I believe, provides them a unique perspective on the sport and a ton of insight into training strategies. I don't claim to be competitive in the FT world. I'm running my first Q this weekend with a dog much more talented than her handler. I expect to get my back side handed to me in the first series. But you better believe I'll be excited every time I see her come back with a bird, whether its the flyer in the first or the final bird in the fourth. Success, to me, is not currently measured by me in terms of AA points. Someday I hope it will be. Setting goals and achieving them is the definition of success. Right now, walking to the line with some confidence for the first series is success in my book.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

If I didn't use a Pro there would be no way I could play the game...it's lack of sunlight, lack of dedicated training group, I have land now, but not enough for a truly competitive FT dog, a pothole of water, but not nearly good enough, nor access to any more water...it's easy to say you just need dedication and willingness to get it done, but there are many factors that go into making a competitive FT dog - it takes a small army, good logistics and funds. It's no small task and it is not easy for a newbie who works full time to get there unless they happen to live in the right place, have access to the right grounds, the right mentors (training group) and a forgiving spouse if they are married...it can be done, anything can be done, but it isn't going to happen over night and it isn't gonna happy with our sacrifice.


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## retrieverfever (Feb 5, 2006)

disagree wholeheartedly.....my husband and I are mid-40s parents of a 12 year old too but is takes us just as long to set up drills and field trial concepts as it does for Hunt tests.....he has won Ams and I am working towards the blue myself.......nothing about that statement is true...if you want it....train to get it.....stop whining


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

BonMallari said:


> There are two guys that have graced the sport in the last decade and both had success one went all the way to the top of the game- twice. But what I admire about both of these guys (whom I consider friends) is that they stepped away from the sport in order to take care of their kids. Maybe it was an easy decision,maybe not. I think the latter.
> 
> I like how they have their priorities right. Hope they return to the game when their lives allow it because they both bring a lot to the table,besides talent


Perfectly stated Bon. The addiction that is dog training can be hard on a young family, or any family/relationship. 
There is no regret worse than wishing you could spend just one more hour with your child rather than with your dog (or something else revolving around 'you'). All other 'regrets' pale in comparison.


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## Mike Sale (Feb 1, 2011)

I would think grounds would be the most limiting factor. Anyone doing this stuff can find a few hours here and there or they wouldn't be doing it . A good training group would be awesome too, but without big fields and half decent water within a reasonable distance you are severely disabled ! Around here land is disappearing to row crops and being all leased up for hunting . it is pretty hard to find a "good" place to train much less several different ones. I am going to give derby a try this year But I don't expect to be much of a threat to anyone.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

retrieverfever said:


> disagree wholeheartedly.....my husband and I are mid-40s parents of a 12 year old too but is takes us just as long to set up drills and field trial concepts as it does for Hunt tests.....he has won Ams and I am working towards the blue myself.......nothing about that statement is true...if you want it....train to get it.....stop whining


Who are you disagreeing with Danielle?


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Interesting thread, lots of opinions and various levels of priorities. I first got into hunt tests just to do something with my dog. I did not even hunt ducks yet. After taking that dog thru a JH level (1995) basically not having any idea what I was doing. I devised what I believe was the first remote controlled dummy launcher, an got into a program that took that dog thru the MH level of both AKC and NAHRA. I started hunting just to show her what this was really all about, but I was the one who got hooked, and now my trip to N. Dakota every year is set in stone.

I bred her to Honest Abe and got what is likely my dog of a lifetime. Daughter flew thru NAHRA MHR testing and instead of running AKC master tests we tried Quals. The first year we made it to the last series of every trial but never placed or jammed. I had a chance to win one weekend but she got disorientated but the thick weeds in part of the pond and I had to handle for the key bird, once she hit land she knew exactly where it was. I was beginning to get frustrated by lack of success, until I re-defined what success was FOR ME. Here I was with 2 young daughters just starting to get into soccer, my wife works, travels for work, and shows horses. I have a practice were I am the only Dr. Most of my training is done on state dog training grounds and a few private hay fields. No tech water to speak of other than some wild imaginations when I found a point to work with. As I looked around at the people running this game and their private training grounds they rotate with 4-5 of their friends, I took a great deal of satisfaction knowing I was "right there with them". I was competitive with the "big dogs", and was doing it all by myself.
So the definition of success is what we define for ourselves.

The next year, first trial, the dog blew up in the Qual due to excitement, but we had entered the Am for the heck of it. We placed 4th in the Am. The feeling that overcame me when she (last dog to run) emerged with the long retired water mark and everyone watching clapped, is indescribable. Glad I was wearing sunglasses. The rest of that year was a wash with bad luck and injury to the dog's foot. Kids life got busier, sports, school events, and training began to feel like work. I did not need another job. So I stopped training so hard and did more for maintenance and to be the best hunting dog possible. We ran a few hunt tests, with that dog and her daughters but never felt the need to prove anything to anyone, so did not worry too much about titles.

Now the kids are off to college, practice is more mature and easier to maintain, and I found myself with only one dog to focus on (Great Granddaughter of the first dog). She finished her HRCH is straight tests, and next year I hope to go back to FTs, Quals and Ams, as I want to challenge myself and see how far I can push this 3 yr old. However, when hunting season comes around training and trialing take a back seat, because that is "how I want it". That is what is most important to me, plus the dog absolutely LOVES hunting more than anything else, of course they know the difference.

I do not really care what others think of my plan or ambition, I am not worried about impressing anyone. I know how good my dogs are and do not have to prove anything to anyone, especially myself. Are my dogs as good as FCs, heck no, but I am so very proud of them for what they are, and what we have accomplished together. Whether there are titles to show for it or not.

So in the end we all have to set our own levels of success.


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## John Schmidt (Jun 20, 2003)

Hi,

I just judged an Amateur, all four of the placements and the RJ went to dogs that had been trained either extensively or to some degree by Pros. A couple of the Jams were trained by very successful retired amateur trainers. But I believe that the vast majority of the Jams were awarded to dogs that had significant professional help. In all of the All-Age trials that I have judged over the past 14 years, I can't recall any Amateurs that I knew that had solely trained their own dogs, were raising a family with kids, and worked a regular job with regular hours and PLACED in the stake. I certainly know Amateurs that are competitive on a regular basis and have trained their own dogs, but they were retired, kids long gone (or never had any), divorced and/or single. It doesn't mean that those unicorn individuals don't exist, I just don't know any myself. 

If your definition of being competitive is placing in an All-Age stake on a regular basis, then by and large, it is extremely difficult to do even with dogs that are trained professionally. Sure you will always see outliers and some have said as much in the comments, but ON AVERAGE, the typical placement in the Amateur stake is awarded to a dog that has spent extensive time with a professional trainer. And the amateurs are not "typical working class people" ON AVERAGE who use a professional trainer.

If you are married, raising a family and actually care about attending your kids after school activities with a regular job then you will unlikely have the necessary time to train your dog to the highest levels that are required to be competitive at the All-Age stake level if you try and do all the training yourself. If you have an understanding spouse and are on the tail end of a career and your kids are out of the house, and have access to training grounds with technical water and a good training group and are fine with spending your retirement money on attending 10-15 field trials a year, then you MIGHT get lucky and occasionally be competitive in an All-Age stake. 

The typical competitive Amateur wants to win every time out, getting an occasional placement every now and then doesn't cut it for them for very long. The rewards in an All-Age field trial are far and few. The TYPICAL working class amateur trainer with a family stands little chance of being competitive in today's field trial game. 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that is the reality of the situation from my vantage point.

John Schmidt


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## retrieverfever (Feb 5, 2006)

John Robinson said:


> Who are you disagreeing with Danielle?


The original hunt tester the OP was about......IMO.......pros are a great help and asset to the sport but a knowledgeable Amateur who trains by themselves can be just as awesome. An amatuer has a few dogs that can easily get worked everyday with drills and do bigger set ups on the weekends or evenings. The pro has many more dogs that IMO no matter where the dog is getting the work the dog probably sees the same amount of work. While pros train many dogs that win...the Amateur who takes his dog off a pro truck still has to take the time to learn the sport and their know their dog's skills to be successful. We have owned, trained and handled all our dogs except one who was with a pro for a year to get us through some difficult issues....that pro is a great mentor and had helped guide us along the way. We train a bit every day.....but many forget training a dog is not all about going out and setting up big set ups everyday, you can go out and do purposeful drills every day to help meet whatever goal you have for you and your dog.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

John Schmidt said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just judged an Amateur, all four of the placements and the RJ went to dogs that had been trained either extensively or to some degree by Pros. A couple of the Jams were trained by very successful retired amateur trainers. But I believe that the vast majority of the Jams were awarded to dogs that had significant professional help. In all of the All-Age trials that I have judged over the past 14 years, I can't recall any Amateurs that I knew that had solely trained their own dogs, were raising a family with kids, and worked a regular job with regular hours and PLACED in the stake. I certainly know Amateurs that are competitive on a regular basis and have trained their own dogs, but they were retired, kids long gone (or never had any), divorced and/or single. It doesn't mean that those unicorn individuals don't exist, I just don't know any myself.
> 
> ...


I only work three days a week. My kids are all grown up and I have a very understanding wife. I mostly train alone, and once in a while I'm able to join a group. Primarily, for me, the problem is facilities. Especially water. The closest being a 3 hour trip, one way. 
It's a rewarding sport, I love the dogs. But I can't imagine a young person with a full time job and a family, being able to train a retriever to an All Age level. 
Access to good grounds and or a group run by a very experienced trainer, can make a big difference. But still, it's a huge amount of labor to create a competitive All Age dog.
The sucessfull Amateurs I'm familiar with, travel South for the winter. Then come back to cooler climes in the summer. Their dogs are either partly or fully trained by pro's. If the pro's not doing the actual training, they're day training with a pro. Depending on the relationship, that's usually the same thing.

Thanks for the great post John,
Walt


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## John Gush (Jun 19, 2015)

NateB said:


> Interesting thread, lots of opinions and various levels of priorities. I first got into hunt tests just to do something with my dog. I did not even hunt ducks yet. After taking that dog thru a JH level (1995) basically not having any idea what I was doing. I devised what I believe was the first remote controlled dummy launcher, an got into a program that took that dog thru the MH level of both AKC and NAHRA. I started hunting just to show her what this was really all about, but I was the one who got hooked, and now my trip to N. Dakota every year is set in stone.
> 
> I bred her to Honest Abe and got what is likely my dog of a lifetime. Daughter flew thru NAHRA MHR testing and instead of running AKC master tests we tried Quals. The first year we made it to the last series of every trial but never placed or jammed. I had a chance to win one weekend but she got disorientated but the thick weeds in part of the pond and I had to handle for the key bird, once she hit land she knew exactly where it was. I was beginning to get frustrated by lack of success, until I re-defined what success was FOR ME. Here I was with 2 young daughters just starting to get into soccer, my wife works, travels for work, and shows horses. I have a practice were I am the only Dr. Most of my training is done on state dog training grounds and a few private hay fields. No tech water to speak of other than some wild imaginations when I found a point to work with. As I looked around at the people running this game and their private training grounds they rotate with 4-5 of their friends, I took a great deal of satisfaction knowing I was "right there with them". I was competitive with the "big dogs", and was doing it all by myself.
> So the definition of success is what we define for ourselves.
> ...


This is the perfect attitude to have in my opinion! My puppy AXE is a little over 10 weeks old. My goal is to create a happy dog that enjoys being with my and I being with him. I do not care if he is the best, but that we have fun together. Hunting for sure, and who knows what else. We have fun just training together. 

I will do the best by him in the training and in raising him as a part of the family. The main thing in our lives is that he is my buddy and I am his!


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

Having worked at both hunt test and field trials I have heard comments like the title thread. So my reply to the hunt test individual would be to look at the title and entrants in Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests. Yes I am going to generalize which will anger some.

Hunt Tests have events based on the age and experience of the dog. Professionals compete against the "Working Class Amateur" in every event. When you look at the entries you will see most events are dominated by Professionals. The Amateur has become minimized and many prefer to hand over the whistles to their Pro in fear of not getting the overly generous "Orange Ribbon." 

Field Trial events are based on the age and experience level and the occupation of the handler. Field Trials have events called Amateur and Owner/Handler Amateur which encourage the Amateur to compete. It protects the Amateurs from having to compete against Professionals in the All Age Stakes. 

Now you tell me which one of our events does more to help the "Working Class Amateur" succeed?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

John Schmidt said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just judged an Amateur, all four of the placements and the RJ went to dogs that had been trained either extensively or to some degree by Pros. A couple of the Jams were trained by very successful retired amateur trainers. But I believe that the vast majority of the Jams were awarded to dogs that had significant professional help. In all of the All-Age trials that I have judged over the past 14 years, I can't recall any Amateurs that I knew that had solely trained their own dogs, were raising a family with kids, and worked a regular job with regular hours and PLACED in the stake. I certainly know Amateurs that are competitive on a regular basis and have trained their own dogs, but they were retired, kids long gone (or never had any), divorced and/or single. It doesn't mean that those unicorn individuals don't exist, I just don't know any myself.
> 
> ...


I don't know your circuit John... But it makes me wonder with results like that... If you (and co-judges) might not subconciously lean towards to pro-trained dogs? 14 years? In all that time, some amateur should have been able to stumble on a win with his self trained dog. JMHO. Used to be some good amateur dog guys in those parts...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

John Schmidt said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just judged an Amateur, all four of the placements and the RJ went to dogs that had been trained either extensively or to some degree by Pros. A couple of the Jams were trained by very successful retired amateur trainers. But I believe that the vast majority of the Jams were awarded to dogs that had significant professional help. In all of the All-Age trials that I have judged over the past 14 years, *I can't recall any Amateurs that I knew that had solely trained their own dogs, were raising a family with kids, and worked a regular job with regular hours and PLACED in the stake. * I certainly know Amateurs that are competitive on a regular basis and have trained their own dogs, but they were retired, kids long gone (or never had any), divorced and/or single. It doesn't mean that those unicorn individuals don't exist, I just don't know any myself.
> 
> ...


Sure you do John, he is a dinosaur, not a unicorn, and you have run under him and he under you..now I must admit he doesn't have a "regular" job per say...but he still logs plenty of hours at what he does,and has been known to perform his specialty on more than one person at a FT site..in fact at the Butte trial Alan M. showed me pics of him using someone's billiards table at a FT to administer his specialty...;-)


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Gawthorpe, I like the point you are getting at, but hunt tests are not competition. If the dog does the work, it makes no difference if you are the only amateur there or not. Not everyone can have the time or resources to compete in field trials, but given the right time opportunities, I believe a working stiff family man can have enough success to enjoy the game, and set themselves up for greater success when their life circumstances eventually allow for it.

The successful retired amateurs didn't wait until retirement, to buy a dog and learn the game. They came into retirement bloodied and beaten up as working amateurs, and then found the time to become dangerous. This "can't do" idea being tossed around here is the biggest threat to the future of pure amateur trainers. I appreciate that the opportunity simply isn't there for most. It does exist but it won't exist for those who are convinced that there is no point in trying.


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

ive read through the many posts and I am responding to the original post,the answer is Yes ,I know of an national am champion that had never been south in the winter and was 100 percent amateur trained and handled,also was a aftch and ftch,owner handler had two sons at home and was working his butt off to ensure he could send them to college,he also was there for them when it came to their sporting interests 

if you say it cant be done I guess your already behind the eight ball,but if its something you want you can find the ways and means,it takes a good dog,the right knowledge and determination,and some fellow amateurs help along the way does not hurt.the process takes years of dedication so a tremendous love for the game seems to be a common factor as well amongst those successful true amateurs

was it hard work,you can bet on it,but im sure he thinks it was well worth it


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

Scott Adams said:


> Gawthorpe, I like the point you are getting at, but hunt tests are not competition. If the dog does the work, it makes no difference if you are the only amateur there or not. Not everyone can have the time or resources to compete in field trials, but given the right time opportunities, I believe a working stiff family man can have enough success to enjoy the game, and set themselves up for greater success when their life circumstances eventually allow for it.
> 
> The successful retired amateurs didn't wait until retirement, to buy a dog and learn the game. They came into retirement bloodied and beaten up as working amateurs, and then found the time to become dangerous. This "can't do" idea being tossed around here is the biggest threat to the future of pure amateur trainers. I appreciate that the opportunity simply isn't there for most. It does exist but it won't exist for those who are convinced that there is no point in trying.


well is this not a coincidence , seems Scott and I were typing out our posts about the the same time


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Allow me to add, 
The idea of the "Pure amateur" is something to take a measure of pride in, but it takes nothing away from those who have found satisfaction, in whatever path they choose, to get where they want to be. The influence of the handler is so great online, that both handler and dog need to be on their game to do well. Most of us start out the same way. Like a blind pig. Watching a great team work together is the bottom line.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

the Giermans train their own dogs dont they? they always seem to have nice dogs


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

*The Record of the Amateur Speaks & Bodes Well for the Future!*

The competitive Amateur is alive and well. 

2014 Vicksburg, MS. Finalists, 5 Amateurs; 9 Pros; Total Amateurs 33; Total Dogs 98.
2013 Cheraw, S.C. Finalists, 1 Amateurs; 15 Pros; Total Amateurs 25; Total Dogs 92.
2012 Montgomery, TX. Finalists, 3 Amateurs; 9 Pros; Total Amateurs 25; Total Dogs 105.
2011 Oakdale, CA. Finalists, 2 Amateurs; 9 Pros; Total Amateurs 19; Total Dogs 90.
2010 Vicksburg, MS. Finalists, 2 Amateurs; 10 Pros; Total Amarteurs 23; Total Dogs 97.

Years National Winners handled by an Amateur -
1942, 1946, 1949, 1950, 1960, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 
1983, 1984, 1988, 1997, 2002, 2006, 2007.**
** RFTN

Bill Connor


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## russell.jason2 (Mar 13, 2011)

Late to this thread but while I agree it can be done there is extreme sacrifice, so you must be sure it is what you want. A person with a full time job but does not have a comfortable income, it is extremely difficult. Sure you may have a training group, access to land but to you have the funds to travel, hotel stay, entry fees, not just for a few field trial but enough to run for the ultimate goal of FC/AFC. If you do have funds and work a full time job you must sacrifice things you like, i.e, when your buddy wants to hunting after work, not so much, if your buddy want to go fishing after work, not so much, if your wife want to go work in the garden, not so much, if you want to go play a 4 hour round of golf, not so much. You and your significant other must be 100% committed. In my opinion you must be committed to train 4-5 time a week. Yes there are a few who can do it but a very few. If you live in the extreme heat of the south and can't until the last hour of the day and can't train in the morning because you have to be a work at 0700, do you really think you can compete with the amateur who has the fortune to travel up north and train everyday and run trial every weekend??? There are exceptions to every circumstance but overall a select few can achieve this.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

russell.jason2 said:


> Late to this thread but while I agree it can be done there is extreme sacrifice, so you must be sure it is what you want. A person with a full time job but does not have a comfortable income, it is extremely difficult. Sure you may have a training group, access to land but to you have the funds to travel, hotel stay, entry fees, not just for a few field trial but enough to run for the ultimate goal of FC/AFC. If you do have funds and work a full time job you must sacrifice things you like, i.e, when your buddy wants to hunting after work, not so much, if your buddy want to go fishing after work, not so much, if your wife want to go work in the garden, not so much, if you want to go play a 4 hour round of golf, not so much. You and your significant other must be 100% committed. In my opinion you must be committed to train 4-5 time a week. Yes there are a few who can do it but a very few. If you live in the extreme heat of the south and can't until the last hour of the day and can't train in the morning because you have to be a work at 0700, do you really think you can compete with the amateur who has the fortune to travel up north and train everyday and run trial every weekend??? There are exceptions to every circumstance but overall a select few can achieve this.


Good post...


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm a young guy with a young family and I work a ton. I have found it very hard to compete in FTs and train as much as I need to without neglecting other parts of my life. I think its definitely possible but what I have come to terms with is that my goals are going to take longer than anticipated. At 2.5 years old, my dog has only ran 2 trials, way less than I hoped. Financials are what really kills me. Working shift work screws me too because I have a 50/50 shot at being off on a trial weekend. I enjoy it though and if it takes me longer, then so be it. By the time I'm retired (and thats a LONG way off), I should be able to kill it on the circuit hahahaha.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

If you want to be a scratch golfer, or win races at your local speedway, or drag strip, or want to compete in triathlons............

Bottom line is if you want to play at the highest level there is a sacrifice to be made....And almost always involves time, money and facilities. 

Can the average amateur achieve these goals probably not.......Can the individual that wants it bad enough achieve it??? Absolutely 


P.S. This applies if you hire a pro or or not.......Try taking a random dog of a pros truck and walking it to line in the Am......

JMO.....Randy


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

A lot of great points discuss on experience past.
What can we do to show or say that there is light at the end of the tunnel to those who express interest in the FT sport?
I know being honest is worth its weight in gold and there are no rose color glasses in this venue.
Can we give them any assurances that won’t pop their bubble and for them to say the hell with this?
BJ


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> A lot of great points discuss on experience past.
> What can we do to show or say that there is light at the end of the tunnel to those who express interest in the FT sport?
> I know being honest is worth its weight in gold and there are no rose color glasses in this venue.
> Can we give them any assurances that won’t pop their bubble and for them to say the hell with this?
> BJ


No, you can't.

What you can do is tell them, as I was told by a long time competitor, if you make it to the land blind in an 85 dog open, you need to celebrate it. If you wait until you win to celebrate, you'll never survive in this sport.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

captainjack said:


> No, you can't.
> 
> What you can do is tell them, as I was told by a long time competitor, if you make it to the land blind in an 85 dog open, you need to celebrate it. If you wait until you win to celebrate, you'll never survive in this sport.


Those new would not understand what you are saying. 
We can speak in our terms, but we need to speak in their terms. 
Just saying...


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Another way to put it
Measure your advancement against your previous achievement, not somebody else's. It carries you a long way.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Smiling as I punch this in. One can have the time and money coupled with commitment then develop the skills to complete and I mean compete. What's left out of this equation is the dog. Today's winners are not just good dogs; they are exceptional dogs. Look at the folks who are standing there in the 4th every weekend and then look at the folks that get there 1 time a year. 
Lessons to be learned and time generally bestows those lessons 
If you like a challenge then this is a good sport for you. 
2 cents from the peanut gallery 
Dk


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> Those new would not understand what you are saying.
> We can speak in our terms, but we need to speak in their terms.
> Just saying...


WTH are you saying??? New or old, you're the only one who understands what you write.

Pretty sure anyone who can read understands this...

"If you wait until you win to celebrate, you'll never survive in this sport."


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Scott Adams said:


> Another way to put it
> Measure your advancement against your previous achievement, not somebody else's. It carries you a long way.


Right on big time. 
Credit when is due. 
Who knows...maybe the next great trainer is lurking in the background.


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## Clintonb (May 18, 2013)

I never understand what BJ says in any of his riddle filled posts in any thread. I am always confused by him.


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

Clintonb said:


> I never understand what BJ says in any of his riddle filled posts in any thread. I am always confused by him.


That is true new or old, but I think he means well.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Clintonb said:


> I never understand what BJ says in any of his riddle filled posts in any thread. I am always confused by him.


Could be all the pot smoke blowing in from WA...

This sport is not like T-ball where everyone gets a trophy. Get a good dog. Train like hell. Trial like hell. Pray for no injuries. Train some more. Trial some more. You might get there. Took me 10 years to get my first AFC. First mutt was a backyard breeding. Saw real quick that wasn't gonna work. Finally got a good dog... Kept at it. Got the AFC a couple weeks after the divorce was final:shock: it was going to happen anyway... The dogs may have helped it along a little. Kept me sane during and after. That was a long time ago. New dogs, different wife who actually likes dogs. Back at it. May get there again... May not. But not because of lack of effort.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

lots of amateurs pick pups from great litters,but seems like some amateurs just pick the right pups from those litters. the Neils,Giermans,Russells,aycocks seem to have great dogs all the time. seems like they never have washouts.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Trevor Toberny said:


> lots of amateurs pick pups from great litters,but seems like some amateurs just pick the right pups from those litters. the Neils,Giermans,Russells,aycocks seem to have great dogs all the time. seems like they never have washouts.


Maybe it ain't the dog???


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

how many fc or afc has kip trained?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Trevor Toberny said:


> lots of amateurs pick pups from great litters,but seems like some amateurs just pick the right pups from those litters. the Neils,Giermans,Russells,aycocks seem to have great dogs all the time. seems like they never have washouts.


How would you know if they have washouts or not?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> lots of amateurs pick pups from great litters,but seems like some amateurs just pick the right pups from those litters. the Neils,Giermans,Russells,aycocks seem to have great dogs all the time. seems like they never have washouts.


Of course they do, if you really followed them about what they keep and buy. They aren't inclined to announce it for the public's benefit and it is no ones business but theirs. 
Why are you stirring, stirring, stirring?


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## Charlene Chastain (Dec 5, 2013)

Trevor Toberny said:


> lots of amateurs pick pups from great litters,but seems like some amateurs just pick the right pups from those litters. the Neils,Giermans,Russells,aycocks seem to have great dogs all the time. seems like they never have washouts.


I can speak for the Giermans only. There have been many washouts over the years. Mom said my problem, if I want to try this game "I won't be able to washout dogs because I will get attached". She is right! I bought one of her washouts that I am showing now. But, I believe Mom's "washout" standards are much greater than mine, at this point in her life. She is looking for a great dog. I am just looking for a dog I can compete with and get to the last series, as a "happy team having fun". Mom and I have fun training. I don't care if it takes 7 years for us to earn an AFC. Not to say, I won't need pro help down the road. Have already gotten some great tips from some great pros. I am not again "Pros" training AM dogs. Everyone had different situations, I am just very "Lucky" my situation allows me the opportunity to train my own dog. But, if and when we do it, I will take great pride knowing I "trained" my dog.


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## RobinZClark (Jun 8, 2012)

What is wrong with competing in field trials just for the fun of it, without the expectation of winning and placing? What is wrong with taking pleasure in being in the presence of the top people in the game and just LEARNING from them and appreciating their accomplishments? It is thrilling to me to listen to the stories the experienced people tell. I love to hear about the great trainers and the great dogs. I love watching a good dog run. 

I won't run my first field trial until next year, but I hope that I never reach the point where I can't have a good time if I don't place. As a full time computer programmer and insane crossfit athlete, I don't have the time to be a serious competitor. That doesn't mean I can't have a good time.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

BJGatley said:


> Those new would not understand what you are saying.
> We can speak in our terms, but we need to speak in their terms.
> Just saying...


If I make it to the land blind in the Q this weekend, I'll be ecstatic.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> If I make it to the land blind in the Q this weekend, I'll be ecstatic.


qual is usually with the LB
Unless you have to pick up you get to run it


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

RobinZClark said:


> What is wrong with competing in field trials just for the fun of it, without the expectation of winning and placing? What is wrong with taking pleasure in being in the presence of the top people in the game and just LEARNING from them and appreciating their accomplishments? It is thrilling to me to listen to the stories the experienced people tell. I love to hear about the great trainers and the great dogs. I love watching a good dog run.
> 
> I won't run my first field trial until next year, but I hope that I never reach the point where I can't have a good time if I don't place. As a full time computer programmer and insane crossfit athlete, I don't have the time to be a serious competitor. That doesn't mean I can't have a good time.


Nothing wrong with that. Set your own expectations and definitions of success and don't worry about any others. Some folks are in it to win nationals, some to win weekend trials, some want just to finish and some are hoping to get one more series than they did last season and hope one day to finish one. All of them can have a good time, enjoy the sport and the folks in the game


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> If I make it to the land blind in the Q this weekend, I'll be ecstatic.


I totally get that, we all have our own perspective. I remember going out in the first series, trial after trial with my first dog. I trained with Don Berard and Ritz, Don was very high on my dog and told me to stick with it. In the mean time Don was super frustrated with all the green ribbons he and Ritz were getting, and I remember thinking that I would kill for one green ribbon. Now years later I find myself biting my tongue and trying to smile when they call my dogs name for third or fourth place as they are announcing the awards, I was hoping for the win and thought there was a good chance. On the other hand there are trials where I felt we messed a bird up and likely didn't place, so am pleasantly surprised with a placement. Bon's quote of Lanse Brown in his signature line is perfect.

Woops, Doublehaul was posting the same thing as I wrote my post. I'm kind of slow...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

What do you mean by "working man/woman"? Someone who works a blue collar job from 9-5, M-F?
What do you mean by "compete"? Someone who is in the last series regularly of the Open and Amateur, week after week?

If that is the standard, there are very few people who fit the bill.
Most of the names that have been dropped in this thread as a "working man/woman" are people who are retired, have wonderful training grounds, and train year round.
That is not to diminish their accomplishments, which are significant, but simply a statement of reality.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Now after nine pages going back to the OP's original question, the answer is yes it's possible and has been done numerous times, but it is difficult and requires many sacrifices. I started off in hunt test back around 1993. I was able as a newbie, but with help from a slightly more experienced amateur, to work my way up through junior , senor and finally master. My buddies and I were in our 40s, we all had regular 8-5 jobs and a couple of the guys had families to deal with. We were fortunate to live in semi-rural NW Montana, so had access to some good land, plus this far north summer days last past 10:00pm, so we were able to get a good session in after dinner. 

We all followed Jim our leader into field trials around 1995. At this point in my life I was working 60+ hours a week and my wife insisted on a little time away from the dogs so I sent my new FT pup off to a nearby pro. Now Cheryl and I spent at least one day a weekend training with the pro. In the meantime my old am group was still plowing ahead on their own and I would join them occasionally when my dog was home a week here or there. Training with the pro was where I really got coached up on handling technique and how to read a dog. That first dog was a marginal field trial dog, but a hell of a hunter and HT dog. BTW we all took four months off every hunting season to hunt our dogs and keep them home through the winter. After hunting season I trained with my buddies until Eric returned in April.

Later with my next dog was when we had our best ever amateur group, I knew a lot more by then and we all really progressed our dogs to max out their potential. This group lasted 6-7 years then one by one the am group dissolved so I went back to the pro part time. For the last 12 years I've been self employed with a little flexibility, so I day train with a couple different pros and do a lot of stuff at home. I still hunt my dogs from October-December every year and even travel south for a few weeks in the winter. As we near retirement we will be even more flexible with travel, trials and training. I don't feel any stigma with using a pro as is convenient, and really don't feel there is any difference to the dogs whether they are day training a pro set up or good amateur group. I prefer to remain flexible and keep our training options open.

In my example my amateur buddy Jim Mitchell is a "working guy" who competed and succeeded for a few years as a total amateur. I did a hybrid approach with a lot (LOT) of pro help. I still day train with a pro and send my dog off to trials I don't have time to attend. I think my approach is way more typical than Jim's. BTW Jim couldn't last, when push came to shove, he had to make the correct choice of family over dog.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I still remember a guy saying with a smile "in field trials there are two kinds of people, competitors and participants. I'm a participant." HPW


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

There is no right or wrong. Only what is the best choice for you at the moment in time when you have to make the choice. Enjoy the ride.


And there are choices to be made all along the way.


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## John Schmidt (Jun 20, 2003)

huntinman said:


> I don't know your circuit John... But it makes me wonder with results like that... If you (and co-judges) might not subconciously lean towards to pro-trained dogs? 14 years? In all that time, some amateur should have been able to stumble on a win with his self trained dog. JMHO. Used to be some good amateur dog guys in those parts...


Hi,

I don't lean towards a pro-trained or amateur-trained dog. I don't train with a pro and don't know how they train or what they set up. I just have figured out what dogs can do and can't do by trial and error with my own dogs. I have numerous amateurs place and win under me in both the Open and Amateur, but they didn't fit the criteria as I understood it in the original poster's question. They trained their own dog, retired, weren't raising a family, and had way more time on their hands than the typical individual that works a full time job with a family and is training their dog in an amateur group or by themselves. 

We have had several amateur trainers in our two field trial clubs in Utah that have won and placed in both Opens and Amateurs, and hopefully they will title their dogs. But none fit the original posters criteria as I understood it (job, family, etc).

Since, 1993 which is when I moved to Utah and got involved in the dog games, I know of one individual that titled three dogs (1 FC/AFC National Open Finalist, and 2 AFCs), one individual that titled one dog (AFC), one individual that titled two dogs (FC/AFC and AFC), and one individual that titled (FC/AFC). All amateur trained. All went to at least a National. During the time they were campaigning, they all shared the following: none were raising a family, they had access to world class training grounds (Lee Kay Center), either retired or on the tail end of their careers or had flexible hours. So in 22 years, 4 individuals have titled dogs. 

But if you are trying to raise a family, married, working a full time job, training your dog yourself, and don't have access to technical water, the odds are stacked against you. Deviate from any of those restrictions, and the odds improve (although not significantly). It is just a hard game with very little consistency. Today's winner may not even pick up the flyer or go out in the first series in the next week-end's trial. 

Everyone gets to define their own metric for success. For some it may be getting through a particular series of an All-Age trial, for others it might be qualifying for a National every year. But when someone asks about being competitive, my definition of competitive is getting to the end and getting in the colors on a regular basis, not just catching lighting in the bottle every couple of years. But define your own measure of success and enjoy the week-end trials and especially the training. And you won't be disappointed. 

John


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Short answer is yes. First requirement is to have an exceptional animal. After that everything falls into place. If you don't have the first requirement you can beat your head against the wall with the rest of us. I've had one exceptional animal, been looking for another one for a long time.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

If you go to the Retriever News site 

www.theretrievernews.com/2016-narc-qualifiers.html

you will see that there are currently 15 dogs qualified for the 2016 National Amateur Retriever Championship (there will probably be 130+ qualified by the time that June rolls around)

Of those 15, I think
- 4 are pro trained
- 7 are trained primarily (maybe totally) by amateurs who do not work and train year round
- 3 I don't know about

I only know of one that is trained and handled by a working guy - Nitro/Rich Pingatore


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

It is my observation that people who do not
- Enjoy the dogs
- Enjoy training
for the most part, do not last in the sport

Those who are in the sport only to collect ribbons tend not to last long - or if they do last, not very happy

Even the most successful handler/dog teams win or place a small percentage of the time


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> It is my observation that people who do not
> - Enjoy the dogs
> - Enjoy training
> for the most part, do not last in the sport
> ...


a great post for sure and precisely correct.so Mr. Shih do you agree or disagree that a working man or women can be competitive in FTs


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

Competing in field trials is a tough row to hoe - even tougher for a working amateur. Derbies are tough, IMO Quals slightly less tough, Amateur's are nearly impossible, and Opens are ridiculously tough. But the good news is they are a ton of fun if you have a good dog to take to the party. I was as clueless as you can be when I started this game. Had no idea what it took to be competitive in FTs. My dog went out in the first series in his first 4 derbies-how's that for starting out a total failure? That same goofy dog won a Qual right after derbying out, earned a MH in 6 straight, and placed in a Am and Open before turning 3. He later managed to put the FC-AFC in front of his name and took me to a couple of national ams. We only ran a few trials each spring and fall, and never made a summer trip. 

So, don't let anyone tell you it can't be done. The stars need to line up just right, and the spouse had better be on board for the trip. Others have commented on what it takes to get there (grounds, help, etc.) so I won't rehash those truths. I will add that you should talk to the pros and ams as much as you can. Most FT folks are more than happy to answer your questions and give advice. 

Go for it!

fprice

PS...Reloading is a bitch.


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## Dwestall (Aug 30, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> This! A small but dedicated training group reall helps to. About ten years ago we had a good group of five working guys who got together three or four times a week. We all scouted for grounds, built relationships with farmers and land owners, and were reliable. If you know what you are doing and are organized you can accomplish a full days pro setup in 2 1/2 hours for six amateur dogs. Our group had quite a bit of success including an FC-AFC, multiple QAA dogs, MHs and a Golden who retired with an Open win.


I can barely find 2.5 hours in a week much less a day. Of course I recognize that I have about 5 other things outside of work and family obligations that I would rather be doing than running trial/tests/training. I enjoy training and running dogs but I enjoy other leisure time activities even more so for me the answer is no trials and a few tests. I'm not willing to make that time commitment, I just want a good hunting partner.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

quackaddict2 said:


> a great post for sure and precisely correct.so Mr. Shih do you agree or disagree that a working man or women can be competitive in FTs


How do you define "working man"? 
How do you define "competitive"?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Dwestall said:


> I can barely find 2.5 hours in a week much less a day. Of course I recognize that I have about 5 other things outside of work and family obligations that I would rather be doing than running trial/tests/training. I enjoy training and running dogs but I enjoy other leisure time activities even more so for me the answer is no trials and a few tests. I'm not willing to make that time commitment, I just want a good hunting partner.


My wife and I are both private pilots and belonged to a flying club the first couple years of our marriage. We both love hiking, fishing and sailing on Flathead Lake. All that went out the window when we got into dogs. Believe me there have been many times that I questioned myself if it was worth the sacrifice.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> My wife and I are both private pilots and belonged to a flying club the first couple years of our marriage. We both love hiking, fishing and sailing on Flathead Lake. All that went out the window when we got into dogs. Believe me there have been many times that I questioned myself if it was worth the sacrifice.


College & pro football season tickets, flats boat, dinner with extended family, vacations... Gone, gone, gone, and gone. No regrets.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> My wife and I are both private pilots and belonged to a flying club the first couple years of our marriage. We both love hiking, fishing and sailing on Flathead Lake. All that went out the window when we got into dogs. Believe me there have been many times that I questioned myself if it was worth the sacrifice.


You questioned it but you are still training and running dogs John.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Bayou Magic said:


> Competing in field trials is a tough row to hoe - even tougher for a working amateur. Derbies are tough, IMO Quals slightly less tough, Amateur's are nearly impossible, and Opens are ridiculously tough. But the good news is they are a ton of fun if you have a good dog to take to the party. I was as clueless as you can be when I started this game. Had no idea what it took to be competitive in FTs. My dog went out in the first series in his first 4 derbies-how's that for starting out a total failure? That same goofy dog won a Qual right after derbying out, earned a MH in 6 straight, and placed in a Am and Open before turning 3. He later managed to put the FC-AFC in front of his name and took me to a couple of national ams. We only ran a few trials each spring and fall, and never made a summer trip.
> 
> So, don't let anyone tell you it can't be done. The stars need to line up just right, and the spouse had better be on board for the trip. Others have commented on what it takes to get there (grounds, help, etc.) so I won't rehash those truths. I will add that you should talk to the pros and ams as much as you can. Most FT folks are more than happy to answer your questions and give advice.
> 
> ...


Frank, you had the blessing and the curse of having a great dog first!


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Really it's not about Pro or Am, but rather:

Your dedication
Your Knowledge
Your facility
Your help
Your life line
Your spouse
Your wallet
and especially your dog


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Terry Marshall said:


> Really it's not about Pro or Am, but rather:
> 
> Your dedication
> Your Knowledge
> ...


You're 100% correct about that first part, because most "pros" couldn't train an fc either.


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> How do you define "working man"?
> How do you define "competitive"?


lets use your criteria as to whom is a "working man/woman",i believe you have mention one, and as far as "competitive" a team that is a possible threat to win or place the weekends they show up though even the best have limited success


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> My wife and I are both private pilots and belonged to a flying club the first couple years of our marriage. We both love hiking, fishing and sailing on Flathead Lake. All that went out the window when we got into dogs. Believe me there have been many times that I questioned myself if it was worth the sacrifice.


Danny Farmer has a saying "You can't talk people into field trials and once they're in, you can't talk them out of field trials." It's really as simple as that. 

If the bug gets you, it gets you. If it doesn't, it doesn't. You can't force it either way. 

Yes, there are things that go by the wayside, but that is true if you attempt to master anything - be it shooting, golf, whatever. To compete at the highest levels requires a single minded focus and sense of purpose. Moreover, if the bug has you, you don't really miss those other things. Because, you are excited about training, seeing your dog improve and seeing yourself improve.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

quackaddict2 said:


> lets use your criteria as to whom is a "working man/woman",i believe you have mention one, and as far as "competitive" a team that is a possible threat to win or place the weekends they show up though even the best have limited success



I used to know people who worked a regular 9-5 job, Monday-Friday, who trained in the mornings and evenings, and didn't go south for the winter (or north for the summer, depending on geography) 

Kenny Payne from Salt Lake City comes to mind
Jimmy Darnell did before he turned pro
John Cavanaugh, Bruce Mitchell, Scott Martin

But that was 10 years or more ago. The tests are so much harder today than they were then. 

I don't want to say that's impossible, but
- If we are talking about a person who works 9-5 five days a week, and does not go south - or north, trains mornings, evenings, and weekends
- Is consistently in the fourth series of the All Age stakes
- And consistently qualifies for the National Amateur - and on occasion, the National

that would be very, very tough (but how cool would it be if you could pull it off)

Ted


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> I used to know people who worked a regular 9-5 job, Monday-Friday, who trained in the mornings and evenings, and didn't go south for the winter (or north for the summer, depending on geography)
> 
> Kenny Payne from Salt Lake City comes to mind
> Jimmy Darnell did before he turned pro
> ...


it would be very cool and encouragement from you and Denis and others of your status in this game has gone a long ways


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I used to know people who worked a regular 9-5 job, Monday-Friday, who trained in the mornings and evenings, and didn't go south for the winter (or north for the summer, depending on geography)
> 
> Kenny Payne from Salt Lake City comes to mind
> Jimmy Darnell did before he turned pro
> ...


Please quantify the term "consistently" in regards to weekend trials as well as qualifying for either of the Nationals, respectively. Percentages will suffice. Thanks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jerry S. said:


> Please quantify the term "consistently" in regards to weekend trials as well as qualifying for either of the Nationals, respectively. Percentages will suffice. Thanks.


 
"Percentages will suffice?" LOL 

Find someone else to play. I'm not interested


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

The ones that can finish an All Age Stake (let alone place) who train their own dog year around while working a 40 hour week are *VERY FEW IN NUMBER. *If that answers the OP.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

quackaddict2 said:


> it would be very cool and encouragement from you and Denis and others of your status in this game has gone a long ways



Not to be too much of a grinch, but I have come to believe that if a person does not want to accomplish _____ (being a great dog trainer/handler, trial lawyer, etc.) no amount of encouragement is going to matter. Either you have that desire within you - or you do not. I believe that in this arena - as in all other aspects of life - people who want to learn find teachers. And that those who are disposed to be teachers find students. If you want to learn a skill - truly want to learn - you will find teachers. Just about everyone will say that they want to learn how to do _______. But, when you cut to the chase, you find that few really do.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Leon Spinks once said, "I aint got no money. I aint got no tee-fus. And I damn sho aint got no drivers license."

a man with these inherent disadvantages once beat Muhammad Ali, the greatest of all time! 

given this, it is a certainty that bright and industrious folk like those posting on the rtf could lay an occasional whipping on farmer, patopea, arthur, lardy, etc. every now and again! right? ;-)


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

huntinman said:


> You questioned it but you are still training and running dogs John.


Yeah because there's nothing like it when it finally all comes together.


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Not to be too much of a grinch, but I have come to believe that if a person does not want to accomplish _____ (being a great dog trainer/handler, trial lawyer, etc.) no amount of encouragement is going to matter. Either you have that desire within you - or you do not. I believe that in this arena - as in all other aspects of life - people who want to learn find teachers. And that those who are disposed to be teachers find students. If you want to learn a skill - truly want to learn - you will find teachers. Just about everyone will say that they want to learn how to do _______. But, when you cut to the chase, you find that few really do.


not being to much of a Grinch at all,totally getting the point,to make even a small dent in this game requires hard work and dedication.only the few it seems will strive for it,i just really love it and want people to see that it can be fun and rewarding.i started out in the HT game and move up through the levels of achievments and after attaining them set my sites on the FT game.not so easy but remember how happy I was just to get to the water blind for the first time in an open,more recently now I finished my first national,it has been a 12 year journey starting with coming to line and getting my first started pass at an HRC hunt test,the last 5 particularly humbling running field trials,down and out at times but seemed somebody in the know came along and helped me get up and id keep finding ways to get it done

yes it is frustrating when people come out and they do not have the right dog and they are not willing to really work at it and yet expect they should be successful and successful right away and when they are not well the game is stupid or ridiculous and out of reach except for those with deep pockets or those with nothing but time on their hands,i agree with you,it is not impossible

well I just got off work,working afternoon shift this week,pounded in a set of 300 lb dies with a sledge hammer,back hurts and headed for bed,3 more years and I can retire,plan to travel the country training and running trials when that day comes.if im ever in your neck of the woods then Mr. Shih I would be honored if you allowed me to train for a day with you


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

quackaddict2 said:


> not being to much of a Grinch at all,totally getting the point,to make even a small dent in this game requires hard work and dedication.only the few it seems will strive for it,i just really love it and want people to see that it can be fun and rewarding.i started out in the HT game and move up through the levels of achievments and after attaining them set my sites on the FT game.not so easy but remember how happy I was just to get to the water blind for the first time in an open,more recently now I finished my first national,it has been a 12 year journey starting with coming to line and getting my first started pass at an HRC hunt test,the last 5 particularly humbling running field trials,down and out at times but seemed somebody in the know came along and helped me get up and id keep finding ways to get it done
> 
> yes it is frustrating when people come out and they do not have the right dog and they are not willing to really work at it and yet expect they should be successful and successful right away and when they are not well the game is stupid or ridiculous and out of reach except for those with deep pockets or those with nothing but time on their hands,i agree with you,it is not impossible
> 
> well I just got off work,working afternoon shift this week,pounded in a set of 300 lb dies with a sledge hammer,back hurts and headed for bed,3 more years and I can retire,plan to travel the country training and running trials when that day comes.if im ever in your neck of the woods then Mr. Shih I would be honored if you allowed me to train for a day with you


Al my hats off to you You have worked extremely hard as others to achieve what you have and not many can say that. It is not that easy but you my friend have busted through and have worked hard and deserve accolades. Always happy to train w/ you!!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Terry Marshall said:


> Really it's not about Pro or Am, but rather:
> 
> Your dedication
> Your Knowledge
> ...


Interesting thread. Every one has stated their case well & as some say it's not a sport for everyone as many do not have
the temperament to pick themselves up after some of the beatings they will assuredly take if they decide to play the FT 
game. Had HT's existed I probably would have played there, at least to start. 

To the above I would add
1. Your competition, areas have high & low cycles when the handler/trainers with the knack can't find the dog they need. 

When I started all I wanted was a well mannered hunting dog, while working 11 hour days 6 days a week. Along the way 
the various dogs I trained/handled from pups had achieved an equal number of pelts in the Open, Am & Derby along with 
enough greenies to create a lawn. I got my well mannered hunting dogs who served me well over the years. It is really 
to walk into a field & know right away by your dogs interest whether there are birds there or not. Like an artist painting a 
picture you exhibit your work when you believe it is ready, at that point you say a lot about yourself. 

Along the way it's also nice to have a tolerant wife, children capable of functioning on their own, a knowledgeable amateur or 
pro to lean on in need & a pro to day train with when you need to measure yourself against your competition. The ultimate 
compliment from your pro is "you need to enter some trials, your dog is ready". 

Today I no longer own a lab as the competitive instinct still exists & I would never have a pound quality dog so would have 
to train them to their ability. There are other ways to compete & fortunately I found one that is stimulating.

On one hand, grounds are becoming too dear, distances to travel training are long, the entries are too large. On the other 
hand, trailer life is cool & convenient, cooking in the outdoors is fun. So if all you are interested in watching is your dog, you 
should hunt with them, it's lot more fun & labs are very versatile.

& last from your avatar, if your breeding program is about color, don't expect to be walking up at the end to get a whole lot 
of pelts colored anything but green, if you even get there.


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## Andy (Apr 20, 2004)

john robinson said:


> yeah because there's nothing like it when it finally all comes together.


amen, brother!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> The whole "I can't compete because I don't have time/money/grounds/etc." thing is an excuse for LOSERS. Get a good dog, work hard, become a student of the game and see where you stack up.



I am a loser!

But,,,,, I think I have a Very nice dog.. Thanks in part,, to a group of FT Trainers, (one in particular) that included me in their lives..

Thank You all !

Spelt loser wrong,,but I ficked it.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Terry Marshall said:


> Really it's not about Pro or Am, but rather:
> 
> Your dedication
> Your Knowledge
> ...


​
Wallets are paramount and dominate in field trails.


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## mjens (Aug 23, 2015)

Clint Watts said:


> How many trialers are there with full time jobs, wives, kids in sports etc... I do agree that where there is a will there is a way, but at what cost? I respect and envy those who are able to prosper and compete in these great games. I really want to be a part of this yet there is truly no time for me. So I decided to use a Pro. Now I don't have a dog at home, my wife doesn't understand why so much money goes out each month ( she is a city girl), my daughter wants her dog home. My priorities are my family, maybe I need to wait until the kids have moved out. Is this more of a retired persons game? Am I the only one that struggles with this?



I have the "FT Sickness" I love it...I love to train, I love to run, however I too have a family. I have a hockey player which in MN we go all year round...plus I coach. It really is hard to balance everything. The family doesn't quite understand my illness but they're somewhat supportive. I have an awesome pro-trainer in Steve Yozamp that I send my pooch to from Jan-May. I know he'd like to have her full time but he also knows how much I like to train...he's very understanding. The working stiff can play this game but it does take some creativity when it comes to finding time to train...finding training groups etc... One thing I will never do is put my love of FT's over my love of my family...so I will not miss one of they're activities! They are here and gone very quickly...just sent my oldest to college and I can't believe it. There will be a season in my life that I'll have more time for this game....I'm just glad there's this option, my golf game is brutal!


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## Mark Chase (Jul 24, 2003)

I have read this post and thought I would interject my opinion. I have been in this game for 10+ years and while I have been fortunate enough to step to the line with some amazing dogs that have won National Ams, I did not own or personally train them. I learned how talented and what amazing abilities that these dogs had. I have contemplated on several occasions about what level these dogs would have attained if I had owned and trained them personally. Can't answer that and speculation is for prognosticators. I can tell you that I work 45 to 55 hours a week and have a family. I will not deprive them of anything to indulge my FT habit. Therefore, I have come to realize that while I do train my own dog and do not go south or north, I still want to be competitive with the best dogs out there running the FT circuits. Have we won or qualified for a national? No, but we have finished some AA stakes and we have gotten color. The success has led me to understand that while it takes a tremendous amount of work and a special dog to be competitive on a routine basis, if you consistently learn how to improve your training program and you learn what a competitive dogs attributes are that make it really competitive, then you are well on your way to becoming a successful FT person. You may not win anymore often or even place, but as Ted Shih so eloquently stated, It is about you learning to become a better trainer and handler and training your dog to reach its full potential. If you can say that you handled the dog perfectly and the dog performed at its full potential, but you were dropped, how is that a failure.


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## jsandersrtr (Oct 5, 2015)

Sure you can you might not get to do it as much as you like but enjoy the times you do get to go


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> The whole "I can't compete because I don't have time/money/grounds/etc." thing is an excuse for LOSERS. Get a good dog, work hard, become a student of the game and see where you stack up.


Add in a wife and family and the bills that have to be paid first ?..Then the kids if you have them ?
Work 9-5 and still take out the trash .Then Holidays for the kids ?
Yup! You sure got a handle on things. 
Now, I train others dogs and have no Holidays and no money ,I work hard 'honestly' .! But I ''stack up'' . 
I'm poor !
Just a Loser I guess. 
Wanna buy a dog ?


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

See the posts on Nancy's win at the GRCA Specialty. Yes, it can be done but it takes an incredible amount of dedication, time and effort. Things that are worthwhile are like that.


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Also, Chris Parkinson just won the Tall Pines Amateur, which completed his dogs AFC. Chris is a full time professor (is there such a thing?) at UCF and has a young daughter that he is very involved with.

Buck


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## John Gianladis (Jun 23, 2012)

The primary reason more non-retired amateurs aren't successful at the all-age level is lack of training knowledge/skill. There is not enough time to compensate for this lack of skill with high volume training when you have to work full time. The more I am around good pro trainers, the more I realize how sophisticated the training approach must be to get a dog to the National level. Very few people are at this level with their training approach. In order to be successful, a working amateur has to be efficient with their training time and have a special dog. It can be done but it doesn't happen by accident very often. Work hard, study hard, train smart!

Johnny G


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## ducdogz (Aug 24, 2013)

Wow!!! I thought I was the only one in this boat!!!



Clint Watts said:


> How many trialers are there with full time jobs, wives, kids in sports etc... I do agree that where there is a will there is a way, but at what cost? I respect and envy those who are able to prosper and compete in these great games. I really want to be a part of this yet there is truly no time for me. So I decided to use a Pro. Now I don't have a dog at home, my wife doesn't understand why so much money goes out each month ( she is a city girl), my daughter wants her dog home. My priorities are my family, maybe I need to wait until the kids have moved out. Is this more of a retired persons game? Am I the only one that struggles with this?


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

John Gianladis said:


> The primary reason more non-retired amateurs aren't successful at the all-age level is lack of training knowledge/skill. There is not enough time to compensate for this lack of skill with high volume training when you have to work full time. The more I am around good pro trainers, the more I realize how sophisticated the training approach must be to get a dog to the National level. Very few people are at this level with their training approach. In order to be successful, a working amateur has to be efficient with their training time and have a special dog. It can be done but it doesn't happen by accident very often. Work hard, study hard, train smart!
> 
> Johnny G


Well said. 
If you have a good dog, and you enjoy the training, you will win every-time, whether you get your dogs name in the results section, or not.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Chris parkinson's dogs are professionally trained. First by Kevin Cheff, then Dave Smith.



Buck Mann said:


> Also, Chris Parkinson just won the Tall Pines Amateur, which completed his dogs AFC. Chris is a full time professor (is there such a thing?) at UCF and has a young daughter that he is very involved with.
> 
> Buck


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## mbcorsini (Sep 25, 2005)

Look at Mike McDaniel. Rosie placed 1st last the AM weekend before and last weekend 2nd in this last weekend. He has trained this dog on his own and is a working man.


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Tracy wight just titled her young female she bred and qualified for both nationals this weekend while raising two teenage kids?
She does it all on her own besides training with a bunch of good people. Quite the accomplishment! 
Congrats from me and Gman


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Mike McDaniel's dog is a Grady pup as well. If you're a working person and want to succeed in FT, get a Grady pup! : ) And Grady is the number one sire at the MN in 2015.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

mbcorsini said:


> Look at Mike McDaniel. Rosie placed 1st last the AM weekend before and last weekend 2nd in this last weekend. He has trained this dog on his own and is a working man.


Mike just won again. Two wins and a second in three consecutive weekends, while working full time and training his own dog.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Sabireley said:


> Mike just won again. Two wins and a second in three consecutive weekends, while working full time and training his own dog.


and while being one of the nicest guys I've met in the game!


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## Repaupo (Apr 28, 2005)

Scott Adams said:


> Well said.
> If you have a good dog, and you enjoy the training, you will win every-time, whether you get your dogs name in the results section, or not.


+1, +2 If I could.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Sabireley said:


> Mike just won again. Two wins and a second in three consecutive weekends, while working full time and training his own dog.


And like Carol said, one of the nicest people in the game, or out of it for that matter. We love Mike and Rosie and and couldn't be more thrilled for both of them!


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

When I got started with retrievers I was working shift work in a power plant. After training many gun dogs and hunt test dogs for people I found myself wanting to get into FT's. ( I used to run horseback bird dogs so I know all about what it takes to be competitive) After about 15 or 16 pups I thought I had "the one" to jump in. When she hit about a yr old I was moved to a day shift job after 32 years of rotating shifts. Lucky I only work 4 days a week so I have a 3 day weekend every week and I usually leave early at least one day thru the week. Now my thinking is that we will finish her derby this Nov then start Q in the spring. The good thing is I retire in 3 years and 4 days and she should be hitting her prime. I'm still learning a lot but after 3 derbies we finally got a win(even tho it was a small field) but the past 2 we have ran was against some of the best and have done well until a small mistake and rather than let her get a bird by doing it wrong I picked her up. Several people told me that they thought we were in it until the last bird. That only fires me more to train and be able to beat the best. I'll be in Cheraw this coming Friday to run against some great dogs and handlers and it will be her last derby. I was told by someone that has had a few FC/AFC's to not worry to much about what she does now because she looks like she will make an AA dog. Saying all of that to say this. Get a good dog(#1) and train all you can and have fun. It does help that kids are gone and wife is extremely supportive. I do have a lot of good places to train and a good training partner and making new friends every trial. It is what I have chosen to do and going all in. I also have a really nice Ten pup and picking up a Creek Robber grandson Friday so hopefully all my retirement checks will be spent on FT dogs.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Dave, 
Good thing is you run last and can watch every bit of what Jason, Delma and Mark do each series which should be helpful. 
Good luck!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

mbcorsini said:


> Look at Mike McDaniel. Rosie placed 1st last the AM weekend before and last weekend 2nd in this last weekend. He has trained this dog on his own and is a working man.


.
.
For this dog, just coming off a Qual win this spring, then quickly banging out 2 Amateur 1st's and a 2nd must be a special dog. Good luck to MIke!


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

It seems to me that not all working men /women have a lifestyle that will let them compete in FT's, but some do.
Those that do, and want to, can, and should't be discouraged from trying.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Yeah Breck, the last 2 trials I was #2. Get to sit and watch a little now. We have had really good first and 2nd series just need to put it all together and have a little luck. What is frustrating to me is the last two trials she went out in 3rd on stuff she has seen and nailed a 100 times in training. Thanks for the good luck, We will do our best and see where we end up. She has been really consistent lately so hoping this is the weekend we get it done. The 4th series of the one we won was as hard a series as we have run all spring so I know she can do the work. No matter what happens I'm proud of where we have got to with my first FT dog to in a short time. Looking forward to the rest of the ride this awesome little dog will take me on.


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