# Automating scratching on EE...



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Okay I'm throwing this out to the general public with the hope that the powers that be will see the need for this capability and will implement a software change.

Yesterday was a holiday and the EE offices were closed. Also our HT closed on Monday evening, per the "rules" of closing on the Monday two weeks prior.

We have a limited Master, but I know a few people who were still wanting to enter. We did not fill up right away and there was no mad rush when the event open to enter, but we did fill up last week. Ignore the conversation of people taking slots and scratching at the last minute and/or waiting to enter the last minute.

Anyway, I looked at our numbers this morning and we are down to 53 dogs, EE support is apparently working through their email from the weekend. Of course our event is closed and those slots can't be filled by those who wanted to enter.

It would be nice when those who wanted to scratch their dog could of done so without having to wait on EE support to make the change. This way the slot would be opened instantly and some one who was watching the entries could of possibly entered. 

I had to scratch my dog, but also needed to enter another dog in it's place, but was not allowed to, even though I sent an email before the closing!

The response:
"I can make the scratch, but I cannot replace the entry with another. The entry would have had to been made before the close. I understand that you could not make the entry yesterday since we were not in the office, but the club was aware that we would not be here when they chose the close date. Let me know if you still want to make the scratch."

My response:

According to EE we did NOT have a choice in the closing date: "Close date must be on or before the Monday of the week before the start of the event."

Anyway - the scratching process needs to be automated so this doesn't keep those from wanting to enter or make changes from happening.

This is not necessarily an issue with EE support staff - they do a great job, but the powers that be need to make note of this issue.

Lainee


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Follow up:

Called AKC to get approval to move close date to today, because of the fiasco of Monday being a holiday. They approved, but need to get EE to agree.

Called EE, spoke with Tara (bless her heart for being the poor middle man), she told me that she could not change it that I had to get approval from Retriever News. 

Called RN but the person who can make the decision is out of the office, the receptionist took my info and hopefully the person in charge will call in and maybe they will call me back.

And yes I'm posting this on RFT because I'm sure the powers that be will see this.

Lainee Munhollon
Pikes Peak Retriever Club (Event ID 2014361101)
719-637-4973 Work
719-338-8573 Cell


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Pisses me off Lainee.
I'm in Colorado and had hoped to run your test. I waited until midnight hoping scratches would open up some spots.
That didn't happen, so I entered a test in Nebraska at the last minute

Frustrating to learn that your test actually had 7 open slots, but it wasn't made public due to the holiday closing date


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

more and more I see situations like this I think HRC has it figured out


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

If you knew Monday was a holiday couldn't you have closed last Friday?


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

j towne said:


> If you knew Monday was a holiday couldn't you have closed last Friday?


Yup....Monday was the last possible day...the closing could have been anytime prior to Monday the 26th....


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes it could of, but by closing Monday, we give those who were running the HT this past weekend the opportunity to enter if by chance they needed an additional pass toward qualifying, plus Friday would not of been much better than Monday, because of the Holiday weekend. And to be honest, when I did the premium back in Dec 2013, I did not realize Monday was a holiday, but I don't see why RNs would not work with us after we got approval from the AKC. Their choice.

It is what it is for my club, can't change it now, but I know we weren't the only club to get hit with having Monday as the closing date. 

Still doesn't change the fact that I believe the ability to allow the person who entered the dog to scratch it should be an option implemented in the software, it's not rocket science it's a webpage. Come on, they can put up "donate" requests pretty easy and lot's of banners to advertise, scratching a dog isn't that hard.

Lainee

Edit: As a side note, I personally don't schedule personal appointments for a Friday or Monday just because of such things...Fridays I'm in a hurry for the weekend to come and Monday I'm trying to figure out the game plan for the rest of the week - I liked being able to have the close dates on Tuesdays.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

I am sure it wouldn't be hard to find the "Powers That Be" cell number.


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## skyy (Mar 25, 2014)

if losing 7 dogs bothers you then next time don't Limit you entries....easy enough....just saying.....

cheers


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

skyy said:


> if losing 7 dogs bothers you then next time don't Limit you entries....easy enough....just saying.....
> 
> cheers


And you will provide us land and water if we have to split the test because we exceed the magical number of 60? 

Thanks!

Edit: And those 7 dogs may be the back bone of this sport who would like to enter, so yeah I'm worried that they weren't able to enter. I'm just a worker bee this go around, unfortunately my dog's health is declining and he won't get the opportunity to finish his MH title...


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

skyy said:


> if losing 7 dogs bothers you then next time don't Limit you entries....easy enough....just saying.....
> 
> cheers


Nice drive by post from an unknown.

Many of us Master National clubs need to limit our entries to ensure we don't exceed the magic number of 60 where as splitting would be required and would also require another set of judges, workers and land, which many of us don't have.

Being concerned about 7 dogs is rightfully so when someone enters a mass of dogs to hold their place and then scratches them not allowing for the amateur to get in and run.


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## DCB531 (May 28, 2014)

1-8 - Hunting Test Procedures
N. Entry Closing Date, Time and Location
The Hunting Test Secretary is iden* tified in the premium list by name and address as the person to receive entries. The closing date and the location of the drawing are also specified. The closing date may be any date, but not later than three days before the start of the hunting test. 
That said apparently entry express is the one dictating closing dates now not the AKC


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

DCB531 said:


> 1-8 - Hunting Test Procedures
> N. Entry Closing Date, Time and Location
> The Hunting Test Secretary is iden* tified in the premium list by name and address as the person to receive entries. The closing date and the location of the drawing are also specified. The closing date may be any date, but not later than three days before the start of the hunting test.
> That said apparently entry express is the one dictating closing dates now not the AKC


I'm okay with EE/RN dictating what closing date should be, but a little flexibility would be nice, specifically in this example. 

And I still think they need to automate the scratch process.


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

FOM very sorry to hear about your dog.
Seems to me I remember years back a test I entered where the EE closing date and the actual closing date where not the same. IF EE closed entries on the Monday or when full, and there were some scratches, the club had flexibility to fill the scratches right up through the "actual" closing date. I know that adds headaches to the hunt secretary's job but that would solve the problem your are talking about. I think most clubs want to have the 3rd party doing the cutoff so the don't have to explain to folks why their dog didn't get in with a last minute entry. I've been on the loosing end of that where a secretary's buddy was able to get a dog in and I couldn't. 2 edged sword and a can of worms combined. Seems like allowing a "waiting list" on EE that accepts over booking might be useful. That would still keep EE responsible for keeping the correct number entered and still be "Fair" about who gets the slots.
I agree on automating the scratch process


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Kenneth, problem with 2nd cut off is the preparing the books. EE has that cut off to give them time to do all the paperwork. I do agree that if it is auto entry it should be auto scratch also. I also think they need to change the system that you can only enter one dog at a time. That way the ones entering 20 dogs has to take the to do each one and that leaves time for single dog owners to get theirs in at the same time. Now you can click one button and enter all 20 dogs at once. That is why it is filling up in a matter of minutes instead of days. Another one would be that only the owner can enter the dog but put who ever they want as handler.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> And I still think they need to automate the scratch process.


Do you think the Retriever News as made any software changes since acquiring EE? Good luck!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Russ said:


> Do you think the Retriever News as made any software changes since acquiring EE? Good luck!


Yes they have, they added banners, they added a request to make a donation to a non-profit, they have implemented the close date timeline, they have added the ability to limit entries, so yeah they've made some changes....but only those in their interest or mandated by actual AKC rules (limited entries). Of course that's my humble opinion...


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I think it is an excellent suggestion. I have in the past entered the wrong dog in the wrong stake or whatever. It sure would be a heck of a lot easier just to fix the problem directly when I noticed it on EE rather than track down their customer service folks.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rboudet said:


> I am sure it wouldn't be hard to find the "Powers That Be" cell number.



it sure ain't like the old days 
when the "power that be"
was just a little swishy


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Karen Klotthor said:


> ... EE has that cut off to give them time to do all the paperwork.......



....AKA... stuffing the catologs with adds and RN articles adding unwanted pages the clubs don't want.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

I asked EE about instituting an automated "wait list" so early scratches would automatically be filled in order of folks who missed the limit cut-off. EE replied that was against AKC regs so a request is working its way through the HTRAC to request a change in that policy. In the meantime clubs have the right to establish their scratch policy for reasons other than those outlined in the regs. The "freebie" preclose scratch is EE default policy but is not mandatory on the club. While it would not help those who missed the cutoff the club would at least keep the $$ for those last minute scratches made w/o documented medical reasons. Knowing that you could not scratch w/o penalty might make some folks think twice about entering unless they are sure they'll be running.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

All good points and perhaps they are working on something. 

Fact is holidays and Monday closes with this limited entry thing is new and clubs/hts must adjust !
One solution may be to back that closing up to Friday. 
Another partial solution may be to open the entry up say 2 weeks in advance of the close with a posted day and time of the opening

Does anybody else have an issue with the number of catalogs sent and tossed? It seems such a waste but maybe i have a narrow view 

The entries that backed out - was it a variety of reasons or had they "qualified out" 

Just a shame there were unfilled openings however gazing over EE has very few events full lately 

Sorry about your dog Laniee

- it just sucks big time to see them get older and/or sick 
Dk


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Good Dogs said:


> EE replied that was against AKC regs


Not sure about that one but I know that is how it is/was done when an event is not on EE (I don't know if there are any of those any more). Its the same thing a club hunt secretary would do if they were doing manual entries instead of using EE. I am not a hunt secretary but, if EE wasn't giving me the features I need I don't think I would use them. I'm pretty sure you can still do that type of entry and that might also be the answer to some of the "filling up too quick" problems. More work for a secretary for sure.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Dave Kress said:


> All good points and perhaps they are working on something.
> 
> Fact is holidays and Monday closes with this limited entry thing is new and clubs/hts must adjust !
> One solution may be to back that closing up to Friday.
> Another partial solution may be to open the entry up say 2 weeks in advance of the close with a posted day and time of the opening


Yes the holiday thing is something new due to the "requirement" by EE to close on a Monday vs. the old standard of a Tuesday that most of us did.

Friday would of had the same issue, EE closes at 5:00ish, some of the scratches without a doubt come in after 5 (thinking the poor working stiff), the ability to scratch via the website vs. depending on the staff at EE just makes sense. Heck it wouldn't matter what day of the week, we would still loose out on entries. 

In this particular case, like I said in my original post, we did not suffer from the mass hysteria of filling up as soon as we opened for entry and in fact we didn't fill up until about 10 days out from closing. However you will always have some later entries because people may want to see how their dog(s) are running or they might of failed a test and need another pass, etc. Plus you will always have the last minute scratches, I was one of them because I was hoping against the odds that I might be able to run Bullet.



Dave Kress said:


> Does anybody else have an issue with the number of catalogs sent and tossed? It seems such a waste but maybe i have a narrow view


I do. We throw away an average of two bundles a year...it's pissing money away for the clubs.



Dave Kress said:


> The entries that backed out - was it a variety of reasons or had they "qualified out"


Not a clue, I figured if they scratch before close, it's their business, I have enough things to worry about prior....you know what I mean....



Dave Kress said:


> Just a shame there were unfilled openings however gazing over EE has very few events full lately


Yup...I think the mad rush of event getting full almost immediately upon opening is very dependent on where the event is in relationship to where Pro's winter/summer and where the MN is being held and/or if a Grand is near by....but that's just speculation.



Dave Kress said:


> Sorry about your dog Laniee
> 
> - it just sucks big time to see them get older and/or sick
> Dk


Yes it does..it's so hard to see an athlete like Bullet decline physically. And I'm stealing Tim West's idea and we will be shooting a retirement flyer for the knucklehead prior to running test dog in Master. 

Dang dogs...


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> ....AKA... stuffing the catologs with adds and RN articles adding unwanted pages the clubs don't want.


I agree 100% with this. EE charges a club for a local ad but fills out book with paid ads from all others we do not even know.


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## truka (Oct 13, 2010)

Does anybody else have an issue with the number of catalogs sent and tossed? It seems such a waste but maybe i have a narrow view 


HUGE pet peeve! We toss at least a packet an a half per event. Actually paid a higher price per catalog one event to reduce the number of catalogs ordered. There is some EE equation of .75 catalogs per dog entered (that's not exact - I don't remember the factor). It would be smarter and less wasteful to have an equation based on number of individual handlers and some extra for spectators that want a catalog. 

Trudie Kuka

ps- good vibes to you and Bullet, Lainee.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

You can contact EE and have them send less catalogs, they just have a pre-determined formula that they automatically send out but it can be modified with a phone call or email.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

skyy said:


> if losing 7 dogs bothers you then next time don't Limit you entries....easy enough....just saying.....
> 
> cheers


More brilliance from the anonymous Skyy
Why don't you come out of the closet and tell us who you are or who you are being a puppet strawman for


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

mjh345 said:


> More brilliance from the anonymous Skyy
> Why don't you come out of the closet and tell us who you are or who you are being a puppet strawman for


And Your name is?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

wojo said:


> And Your name is?


Marc Healey - everyone knows that!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

wojo said:


> And Your name is?


Marc Healey


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Kyle B said:


> You can contact EE and have them send less catalogs, they just have a pre-determined formula that they automatically send out but it can be modified with a phone call or email.


Can you get them to send NO catalogs? The HRC clubs have a bunch of write ins and the order gets changed, HRC doesn't have call-backs; so the EE catalogs are usually a good start for the evenings campfire, but other than that; a waist of time and money. EE gets 4.50 every entry plenty for them to maintain an automated system, we don't need their catalogs, we can actually get them done much cheaper locally .

We're actually looking into a pay-pal like system that the club runs, connected to the club website for online entry. Which would be useful for tests and club events. Are any clubs doing anything like this? We sort've find the organizational system a PITA. with our own system; we could take online entries up until we decided to close, open spots for scratches, print correct catalogs etc.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Can you get them to send NO catalogs? The HRC clubs have a bunch of write ins and the order gets changed, HRC doesn't have call-backs; so the EE catalogs are usually a good start for the evenings campfire, but other than that; a waist of time and money. EE gets 4.50 every entry plenty for them to maintain an automated system, we don't need their catalogs, we can actually get them done much cheaper locally .
> 
> We're actually looking into a pay-pal like system that the club runs, connected to the club website for online entry. Which would be useful for tests and club events. Are any clubs doing anything like this? We sort've find the organizational system a PITA. with our own system; we could take online entries up until we decided to close, open spots for scratches, print correct catalogs etc.


Actually yes. We (NGHRC) are and have been for almost a decade. Works like a charm as you are in COMPLETE control of what flight(s) the dogs are in BOTH days.


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## flyingdogs (Sep 15, 2013)

I am the secretary of the MVHC and saw the Monday holiday issue coming about 2 weeks before the close. I spent a great deal of time with EE and the powers to be at RN trying to get them to change all to no avail. They just didn't care. Our club lost *$340.00 *and that to us is a lot of money. I had contacted AKC and they said yes we could move the date to Tuesday but NOT back to Friday if EE would allow it.. guess what EE would not. BTW in 2013 EE allowed us to move to the Tuesday after Memorial day so...so they could have done this if they had wanted.

BTW the Volunteer group of Retriever Hunt Test Advisory Committee met this week to discuss this issue and many more.


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## Michelle Love (May 31, 2007)

We had an issue with too many catalogs at our test a couple of weeks ago and ended up throwing away over 75 catalogs!!! We had a total of 338 entries with 179 individual dogs entered. EE sent 253 catalogs. That's almost 1.5 catalogs per dog entered. I called to ask why we received so many catalogs. It was explained to me that they send 75% of the total number of dogs entered, not the number of individual dogs entered. If you call EE and request less, they will only go as low as 65%, but the cost per catalog increases accordingly. Huge waste!!!!


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

A lot of the Mid Atlantic clubs with the 60 limit masters that filled within the first hour, had 25-45% scratch rates. Pay attention RN: the system *desperately* needs a way for owners to scratch their own dogs, and they also desperately need an also eligible list. It actually isn't scratching to withdraw an entry prior to closing, you don't need a vet's excuse or any other excuse, and it's stupid to have to do it by phone call. It's positively ludicrous for EE/RN to claim it can't do an also eligible list per AKC rules and because it would be replacing scratches with late entries, but in truth these are NOT late entries since they'd have their entries in before the entries closed.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Before everyone starts kicking RN/EE to much they didnt create this limited entry kerfunkle ! 
The RHTAC committee recommended the limited entry measure to the AKC and they endorsed it. The RHTAC got the limited entry idea from the clubs and if most folks will take a deep breath - the limits were needed by some. 

The issue starts with us- without experiance with limited entries the clubs opened to soon- then in a panic some entered only to back out. If you have your rule books handy - on the back cover read the rules of conduct and the first one says it all. 

With almost a year of this limited entry business behind us I would guess the clubs will do a better job on opening and closing dates! 

RN/EE in my perspective gets about 35k entries from the ht venue. What is that at 4.50 an entry - about 160k. After expenses i dont believe they are making a fortune I also don't believe RN/EE is affliated with the AKC or the RHTAC for that matter. RN/EE is a business that provides a service to our sport and it was a tremendous improvement. Does anyone desire to be a HTS and go back to the paper days, the crazy draw and doing your own catalogs again. 

I would like to think RN/EE , the RHTAC and the AKC are attempting to find solutions- the question we should all ask - are you working together ! 
Dk


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## skyy (Mar 25, 2014)

wojo said:


> And Your name is?


Art Vandelay


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

skyy said:


> Art Vandelay


Lot of free time on your hands now since Seinfeld went off the air?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

/Paul can find anyone's real name in less than five minutes.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Julie R. said:


> A lot of the Mid Atlantic clubs with the 60 limit masters that filled within the first hour, had 25-45% scratch rates. Pay attention RN: the system *desperately* needs a way for owners to scratch their own dogs, and they also desperately need an also eligible list. It actually isn't scratching to withdraw an entry prior to closing, you don't need a vet's excuse or any other excuse, and it's stupid to have to do it by phone call. It's positively ludicrous for EE/RN to claim it can't do an also eligible list per AKC rules and because it would be replacing scratches with late entries, but in truth these are NOT late entries since they'd have their entries in before the entries closed.


It is discouraging to see the Master I am judging fill up to the 60 , and then end up with 30 starters . It is bad business for the clubs, will start to bite everyone in the ass sooner or later when it comes to ordering birds and cutting deals with their motels , and so on.....I quoted Julie because of her highlighting DESPERATELY.That is where we are at IMVHO regards..........


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I had to scratch Rowdy because of a legit medical issue but still had to pay a bird fee. I think it was $25. I am not complaining as I thought it was fair. Maybe that's part of the answer, not give a full refund for scratches even if before the closing.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Another person was able find the name in less than two minutes.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I had to scratch Rowdy because of a legit medical issue but still had to pay a bird fee. I think it was $25. I am not complaining as I thought it was fair. Maybe that's part of the answer, not give a full refund for scratches even if before the closing.


If you had a Vet cert. then you are due a full refund.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Yep I had a vet cert but the premium stated that there would be a bird fee for all scratches.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Yep I had a vet cert but the premium stated that there would be a bird fee for all scratches.


But, AKC rules state otherwise: 
Chapter 1, Section 5. Bitches In Season. Bitches in season
shall not be eligible for entry in any Hunting Test and
shall not be allowed on the grounds. Entry fees paid for a
bitch withdrawn because of coming in season or for a dog
withdrawn because of an injury or illness, or for a dog that dies, shall be refunded in full by the test-giving club. Prior
to paying such refund, the club may require an appropriate veterinary certificate. In the event a dog is withdrawn for
other reasons, the test-giving club is free to formulate
its own policy with reference to refunds provided that
said policy shall be fixed in advance of the mailing of the
premium list for any particular Test.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I'm with Lainee on this one. I realize EE is a valuable service and no one in their right mind would be secretary again if they had to do entries manually and I sure don't want to do my entries that way. Which is likely at least part of the problem, the monopoly syndrome. The Limited Entry option is a necessity for clubs that need it. Because of the actions of some, it has brought about new problems. Because of the AKC rules at this time, not much can be done about scratches after the close and that's a whole 'nother can of worms. But automated scratching shouldn't be that much of a problem to add to an entry system, can't be much different than doing a "return" to a store online, and would facilitate some of the current issues. I'd think it would help the EE staff as well if they didn't have to manually handle scratches on their end.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Have the powers that be at EE responded to anyone about this? Are they willing to work towards a solution?


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

This is what I totally do not understand: both these two fixes we pretty much all agree would go a long way to alleviating the limited entry woes, and would actually *benefit* EE. And according to people familiar with programming, aren't big expensive deals to change the software so it could accommodate them. The benefit to EE is more fees (from also eligible list) and less manual work for the staff if owners could scratch their own dogs prior to closing.

BTW John Kelder, I was one of the scratches in the test you judged; but for my own, not the dog's health reasons. When I contacted the event sec. & chairman to notify them I had to scratch, I said keep my entry money as I'd seen a week before their test had scratched down to 35 from 60 entries.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

suepuff said:


> Have the powers that be at EE responded to anyone about this? Are they willing to work towards a solution?


Given the lack of useability in their own version of an online entry service, the powers that bought EE don't have a very good track record in this regard. I would wonder if this might have something to do with the powers that be being the national FT clubs, but they didn't do a good job with FTs in the previous incarnation either, so it couldn't be that they just don't care about HTs. I think they just don't care one way or the other.


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## outdoordave (Oct 11, 2004)

It would be nice to have the ability to scratch on EE. I had to scratch two different test this spring due to my health issues, not my dogs'.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

Quick question for any HRC folks that might be seeing this and have used both the Hunt Secretary system and Entry Express. Can someone provide a comparisons of services and can the system HRC clubs typically use, offer this type of scratch option?


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