# Creeping Correction/1 Way



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

WE have developed a little creeping issue in the Finished tests.

A LION HUNTER gave me this tip and we applied it last night.
I am not saying this is the "ONLY" way, it is 1 way!
__________________________________________________________________

June 4th

Ran a land triple.
Followed Sharon Potters advice.

Elvis crept on first bird, everything stopped.
Total silence, no movement, nothing!
4 minutes 30+ seconds later he heeled.
Shot second bird, he crept.
Everything stopped.
3 minutes 25 seconds later he heeled.
Shot 3rd bird, he remained at heel.

Actually remembered all 3 marks.

Round 2

Shot the first bird, he crept.
Everything stopped.
We sat and waited for 6 minutes 45 second and he snapped back to heel.
Shot the second bird, he crept.
Everything stopped.
Sat for 4 minutes 40 seconds, came back to heel.
Shot 3rd bird, he remained at heel.
Slammed all 3 marks.

Round 3
He remained steady at heel on all 3 birds.
Smacked the marks.


Point is, it took a while and some patience, but much like a woman, once he decided it was HIS idea, it all made sense to him.;-)

When he crept, everything stopped until he came back to heel, then we started again.

I hope this can help 1 other person!


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## Tom. P. (Oct 20, 2010)

Great idea Stan and good post!
I have to ask the obvious question for me anyways.
Did you tell him to heel after he crept?
Or did you say nothing and let him do it on his own?
Thanks again


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Stan, I'm glad it worked as you start the process. It takes some time and patience and a lot of repetition, but it will work. 

Any time you can set a dog up to figure out its own solution to a dilemma ("How do I get Stan to send me, because I reallyreallyreally want that mark"...then "Oh...if I back up and am right HERE he'll send me" ) the dog will learn and retain well. The hard part is being patient enough to wait it out and let the dog find the answer. The best part is that you're applying no pressure, which in turn doesn't create pressure-induced problems down the road.

And the response Elvis gave you, by coming back to exact heel all by himself with no command from you, says that he knows exactly what he needs to do and doesn't need to be told.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Tom. P. said:


> Great idea Stan and good post!
> I have to ask the obvious question for me anyways.
> Did you tell him to heel after he crept?
> Or did you say nothing and let him do it on his own?
> Thanks again


*SILENCE!!!*


Just wait!


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

A great positive training model for creeping.

click! click!


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## Tom. P. (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks again Stan. We have a creeper also and this is going to be our approach next training day.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I'm hoping I can apply this theory to my marriage........


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Scott Adams said:


> I'm hoping I can apply this theory to my marriage........


Well it does depend on what the reward is - a stinky duck to retrieve may not work!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Interesting. I may give this a try with my creeping critter. What do you do if it gets dark and he still has not come back?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

He'll do one of two things, most likely. Either break, which earns a correction, or eventually scoot back to you. If he doesn't break, he will come back to heel. The important thing is to not give a command...just wait it out. The hardest part is being patient.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

after he heals back do you say "good dog" etc? or just move on and say mark for next one?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

No need to say anything. Praise at this point is a distraction...just move on to the next mark (and I'm not a big believer in saying "mark"...that's more for the human than for the dog). Although...ideally,* it's best to start with singles and get things straightened out there before moving on to multiples.* Doing singles allows the reward of the retrieve, which is all the praise the dog needs. Usually our verbal praise is more about us being happy that the dog did well. A calm "good dog" given after the dog returns to heel with the mark is OK, because it's at the end when everything worked out.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

rmilner said:


> A great positive training model for creeping.
> 
> click! click!


I agree that it is a no-pressure training method, but is it really positive? Since you are removing the send, which is what the dog wants, until the dog complies, isn't that actually negative punishment? Aren't you removing the send to weaken the creeping behavior?

I guess it could be reinforcing the heeling behavior, but what is being added to make it positive?

I am NOT trying to be that guy, just trying to learn how to think through this stuff.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> I agree that it is a no-pressure training method, but is it really positive? Since you are removing the send, which is what the dog wants, until the dog complies, isn't that actually negative punishment? Aren't you removing the send to weaken the creeping behavior?
> 
> I guess it could be reinforcing the heeling behavior, but what is being added to make it positive?
> 
> I am NOT trying to be that guy, just trying to learn how to think through this stuff.


Okay consider the source of the comment - I think he is referring to the fact you are NOT using an ecollar (or heeling stick for that matter) to get the dog to comply. But then again I could be wrong...


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Does it matter?  The dog learns to self-correct, and the handler doesn't have to do anything but be patient. 

Technically, the send isn't removed...it is delayed until the correct response is given by the dog.

Edited to add: The dog is wearing an e-collar. The only way it gets used is if the dog breaks.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Sharon shared this with me a while back. I can't say how long we waited the first time for Indy to come back, but in fact he did. There were a few bumps in the road when he would try "tagging back" and then hopping right back in front, but it did work well. At least well enough that we could get on with other training. The only reason it did not work long term for us, is that I had no way to recreate the correction at a test/trial. My dog has already established who is in charge then. Ain't no judge in the country going to wait that long on my dog!


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

When you say sit and wait, what do you mean?

Are you sitting for all marks (HRC style), or are you standing for marks thrown, and then sitting until the dog self heels, or are you just standing the entire time, but for technical reference you refer to the phrase of "sit and wait".

I get the point, and like it, but just trying to clear up small stupid issues in my mind to make sure I really get the point....lol


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I agree that it is a no-pressure training method, but is it really positive? Since you are removing the send, which is what the dog wants, until the dog complies, isn't that actually negative punishment? Aren't you removing the send to weaken the creeping behavior?
> 
> I guess it could be reinforcing the heeling behavior, but what is being added to make it positive?
> 
> I am NOT trying to be that guy, just trying to learn how to think through this stuff.


As long as it works, who cares what you call it? I guess you could call it positive compared to whipping on the dog with a heeling stick or zapping with a collar, I wouldn't call it punishment until the dog breaks. Sounds pretty ingenious to me.

John


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Zman1001 said:


> When you say sit and wait, what do you mean?
> 
> Are you sitting for all marks (HRC style), or are you standing for marks thrown, and then sitting until the dog self heels, or are you just standing the entire time, but for technical reference you refer to the phrase of "sit and wait".
> 
> I get the point, and like it, but just trying to clear up small stupid issues in my mind to make sure I really get the point....lol


I sat on the HRC bucket.
(sort of wished I had a cigar ;-) )

But you could stand if you like!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

All due respect, it matters to me or I wouldn't have asked the question. In most cases (other than the voodoo of indirect pressure), my personality and professional training spur me to try to find out the why, not just the what.


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## CRNAret (Oct 3, 2012)

DoubleHaul said:


> Interesting. I may give this a try with my creeping critter. What do you do if it gets dark and he still has not come back?


Turn on the airing lights


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> All due respect, it matters to me or I wouldn't have asked the question. In most cases (other than the voodoo of indirect pressure), my personality and professional training spur me to try to find out the why, not just the what.


Sorry I jumped on you, didn't mean it that way, of course you want to know the why, I just didn't think calling it positive or negative meant anything here. The point is that the dog learns on his own that nothing happens unless he sits at heel. I wouldn't overthink this, it's a pretty simple cause and effect situation, but rather than the creep leading to a whipping-reheel and all the fore and aft motion that goes into it, everything here is quiet calm and thoughtful. I like it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Zman1001 said:


> When you say sit and wait, what do you mean?
> 
> Are you sitting for all marks (HRC style), or are you standing for marks thrown, and then sitting until the dog self heels, or are you just standing the entire time, but for technical reference you refer to the phrase of "sit and wait".
> 
> I get the point, and like it, but just trying to clear up small stupid issues in my mind to make sure I really get the point....lol


Sit or stand...pick whichever suits your situation.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Something else I'd like to add, from working with Carol and Indy a couple of years ago: This is really just about a very high standard of basic obedience. And it's easiest to not let the problem start...but if it does, this is the fix I prefer. With Indy, it also seemed to change his attitude in a few other areas as well....his remote sits got tighter instead of loopy and his mouth was quieter when he brought the bird back.

I'm a firm believer that any small misbehavior right next to you will be amplified at a distance. Get the line manners under calm, quiet control and it will affect the rest of the training as well.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

CRNAret said:


> Turn on the airing lights


LOL. Excellent idea.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Sharon Potter said:


> Something else I'd like to add, from working with Carol and Indy a couple of years ago: This is really just about a very high standard of basic obedience. And it's easiest to not let the problem start...but if it does, this is the fix I prefer. With Indy, it also seemed to change his attitude in a few other areas as well....his remote sits got tighter instead of loopy and his mouth was quieter when he brought the bird back.
> 
> I'm a firm believer that any small misbehavior right next to you will be amplified at a distance. Get the line manners under calm, quiet control and it will affect the rest of the training as well.


This is very true! Most of Indy's "in the field" problems resulted from the rodeos we were having at the line. Stick, collar, whiffle bat, whatever, they all added to the instability and high frustration which in turn brought out most of the issues Sharon mentioned. This method forces the dog to think for himself in a calm atmosphere. And it is not bad for the too quick handler either!


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

The hardest part will come at the next test because RK will have to be prepared to pick his dog up on the first creep. A bit costly in the short run but very cost effective over the dog's competition life.


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## blinddogmaddie (Mar 7, 2008)

I have used this method before with my little fire breather, which it does work. I read it on one of Sharon's posts earlier this year and decided to try it. Kenzie would creep forward and wait to be sent. You could see her eyes shift a little backwards waiting to be sent. She would heel back a little at a time until she finally was in the correct heel position. I still didn't send her as I didn't want her crouching but in the sit position. Finally after a little bit, her body went into a complete sit position and she was sent. It is actually fun to watch the dogs figured it out on there own. They know what is expected of them, just a matter of them doing it on their own.


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## knash3 (May 17, 2012)

I used the "do nothing, wait her out" suggestion from this today for a drill from Lardy my training (tor)mentor showed me. It uses repeated throws with no correction, only releasing after zero movement and quiet from the time the bird is called for until the dog is released. My dog's habit we're working on is to pick up her butt, sometimes scooting, sometimes not. It's part way down the slippery slope of twitch/crouch/move/creep/break, and in my prior life I would have accepted this. No more. Today my dog learned that 5 minutes of impatient barking does NOT result in release. Seriously, it was like watching a 3 year old child melt-down, complete with screaming fit, tears, and kicking and pounding the floor. At the shot, she picked up her butt and moved a few inches. No send, and she started the barking temper tantrum. When done, she backed up, her butt hit the matt and I called for another bird. Same thing. After 10 throws without earning a retrieve, we eliminated the shot and she finally sat with no movement and got released. We finished the session after 3 consecutive successes. One down, XX to go. Now my challenge is to stay out of situations that compromise the standard. No trials, tests, group days, etc. Water throws only onto land where pick-up by the gunner is easy. Reintroduce shots, calls and finally flyers as the standard is proofed. I feel like I'm breaking the smoking habit again! 
Thanks to the OP and Sharon for posting this and to my training partners for their extreme patience. What thoughts do you all have on allowing the dog to reheal and then sending vs. calling for another throw and requiring zero movement before sending?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

My thoughts on sending after the dog re-heels itself (and is calm and quiet): I do it, rather than adding additional throws. Always reward the try. Keep it simple and let the dog understand that it has the power to control the situation (or at least it thinks it does!  ) and that heeling in the right spot and being calm will allow the retrieve....not earn another throw. Calling for additional throws adds an additional step that I'm not sure is all that productive. I like the "keep it simple" way of teaching. But that's just me.


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## irishjack8 (Jul 16, 2011)

Great post, I have a 20 month BLF who's a creeper. Had a question, are you using a mat? How much can you run this? How often? And do you revisit once problem is fixed. Thanks in advance for answers.

Thank you Sharon for the insight


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

LOVE this thread!

Thank you Sharon and Stan!!!!


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Moral to the story-
You get nuthin', absolutely _Nuthin_- until you're *steady*,..and quiet.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

irishjack8 said:


> Great post, I have a 20 month BLF who's a creeper. Had a question, are you using a mat? How much can you run this? How often? And do you revisit once problem is fixed. Thanks in advance for answers.
> 
> Thank you Sharon for the insight


I don't customarily use a mat. I want the dog to take its cue from my position, not the location of the mat. That gives me the opportunity to move as needed, for example, to reposition for another mark, without having to worry about a mat. Having said that...one time I did use mats...plural...was with a particular dog named Indy  who liked to leave his owner at the holding blind and run ahead to the mat to wait for her. So we started using more than one mat at the line, and whatever one he went to, Carol went to a different one and waited for him to get to her instead of letting him make his own decisions. 


You can run this as much and as often as you want. It's not really a drill as much as it is a permanently higher standard of control. As for revisiting, if you're consistent and the dog learns on its own how to get sent for the retrieve, you are revisiting it every time you line up for a mark...which is pretty much forever.  If you mean having to back up and redo it after a period of time, I have to ask why the standard was allowed to loosen enough that revisiting is needed?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

It is a beautiful thing to see the dog auto-correct instantly now.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Say dog breaks and gets a correction. Do you bring him back and then start over with another throw or do you bring him back and get him under control and send for the bird he broke on?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

2tall said:


> .... The only reason it did not work long term for us, is that I had no way to recreate the correction at a test/trial.





knash3 said:


> .... We finished the session after 3 consecutive successes. One down, XX to go. Now my challenge is to stay out of situations that compromise the standard. No trials, tests, group days, etc......


keep your willpower (we should say won't power ) high Knash. As Carol so honestly pointed out above. Her failure was not for lack of talent on Indys part. But her inability to stop entering events until issue was fixed. It is a fixable issue. Both for man and beast


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

labman63 said:


> Say dog breaks and gets a correction. Do you bring him back and then start over with another throw or do you bring him back and get him under control and send for the bird he broke on?


I would start over with a fresh throw. The throw is what tempts them to break/creep, so that's what we work on.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

road kill said:


> It is a beautiful thing to see the dog auto-correct instantly now.


 Good work!


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## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

I have used this type of correction to deal with heeling and creeping issues starting this spring and have noticed a big improvement already. At the end of today's training I tried something new I had seen on here in the past. 

I set 2 wingers up about 40 yards apart and facing the pond with a stool in the middle of them...all about 10 yards from the water. I started standing behind the car as a holding blind and did the calls on the wingers a few times before heading to the line a few minutes later. On our first attempt he was lunging in front so he got a heel and nick as I turned back to the holding blind. We repeated the calling from the wingers and waited a few minutes before going back up. This time he heeled properly all the way. 

Once in the stool I waited about a minute and then did a few duck calls but nothing was thrown. He moved a little and got a verbal correction for sit. Over the next 5 minutes I would do a few duck calls myself that occasionally were answered by the wingers calling back, but nothing launched and he stayed still waiting for a winger to go off. After another minute or so I gave an easy reminder to sit and released one winger in a high arc landing 10 yards in the water. He didn't move and stared at the bumper in the water. After a 30 count I released him for the retrieve and gave a lot of verbal praise. We then repeated the above calling sequence using both wingers to call back (he doesn't know they only hold one bumper at a time and the first one wasn't reloaded yet). He sat nice for the second launch as well with an easy sit command just before the release. After another 30 count he was released for the retrieve and more praise for a good sit.

The next time I try this there will be no verbal cue prior to the release.


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## mschwan (Jun 10, 2013)

Sharon, I wonder if a similar approach might work for a dog that throws a fit while honoring by barking and screeching as he watches the other dog retrieve? I have been sticking him and then taking him off line and it does not help and think it might be better to "wait him out" by not doing anything and allow multiple working dogs work until he is quiet, and then reward him with a retrieve? I just hate to allow him to bark, etc and have thought that if I allow it, he might think there is no problem. After reading this approach on creeping, I wonder if you would be kind enough to share your thoughts on this problem (although I do not intend to hijack this thread).


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

mschwan said:


> Sharon, I wonder if a similar approach might work for a dog that throws a fit while honoring by barking and screeching as he watches the other dog retrieve? I have been sticking him and then taking him off line and it does not help and think it might be better to "wait him out" by not doing anything and allow multiple working dogs work until he is quiet, and then reward him with a retrieve? I just hate to allow him to bark, etc and have thought that if I allow it, he might think there is no problem. After reading this approach on creeping, I wonder if you would be kind enough to share your thoughts on this problem (although I do not intend to hijack this thread).


Sticking him and taking him off the line just adds to the anxiety, and he learns nothing useful.

Yes, the silent, let 'em figure it out on their own method will work very well, but again, requires time and patience. What I would do with a screamer like that is stake him out on a very short tie, so he can stand up, lay down, but not move more than that, right next to the line. And let him bark, howl, whine, etc. while the other dogs run. No matter what, the only way he earns his freedom from the tie-out is by settling and being quiet. He may sit there for several training sessions without getting a retrieve....quite a few hours...but in the long run, it works better than pressure. 

Before taking this to the field, I'd start out at home with no retrieving going on, on the same very short tie-out stake in the yard. As you approach, if the dog jumps up, barks, whines, or moves around, you stop and step back. At the very second the dog's butt hits the ground and he sits, you step forward. He moves, etc. you stop. Complete immobility is the goal. No happy feet, either. After a few minutes, he will figure out that he can make you come to him by sitting. Next step is him being calm as you reach to pet him on the tie-out. Same drill....any movement or noise makes you step back. Eventually, he will learn to sit calmly as you approach and take him off the chain. From there you can take it to the field....again, lather, rinse, repeat. And be patient, because you will need it.  

Any time we can put a dog in a situation where the dog has to figure out how to get what it wants, the dog will learn faster and retain better than if we try to manipulate or add pressure.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

road kill said:


> WE have developed a little creeping issue in the Finished tests.
> 
> A LION HUNTER gave me this tip and we applied it last night.
> I am not saying this is the "ONLY" way, it is 1 way!
> ...



Great Idea. I will give this a try. Thanks for sharing.


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## mschwan (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks Sharon! So after he calms down and is quiet, allow him to get a retrieve, then put him up and repeat the next day. Then when he can honor quietly consistently, reverse the order so that he learns to honor quietly after working?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

mschwan said:


> Thanks Sharon! So after he calms down and is quiet, allow him to get a retrieve, then put him up and repeat the next day. Then when he can honor quietly consistently, reverse the order so that he learns to honor quietly after working?


You don't have to put him up after one good one. Repeating it helps it sink in.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

If you're talking about a *cold honor, *I would think the procedure would be the same as if the dog were watching his own marks shot down; eventually earn the retrieve through sitting quietly.

However, if the dog has already run his marks and is honoring the following dog, I don't understand the principle of rewarding him with a retrieve. His lesson is to honor ... this is not his bird.

I would not want my dog to experience the reward of being sent for the same set of marks simply because he sat quietly and honored.

JMO

JS


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

mschwan said:


> Sharon, I wonder if a similar approach might work for a dog that throws a fit while honoring by barking and screeching as he watches the other dog retrieve? I have been sticking him and then taking him off line and it does not help and think it might be better to "wait him out" by not doing anything and allow multiple working dogs work until he is quiet, and then reward him with a retrieve? I just hate to allow him to bark, etc and have thought that if I allow it, he might think there is no problem. After reading this approach on creeping, I wonder if you would be kind enough to share your thoughts on this problem (although I do not intend to hijack this thread).



Here,s a drill I do for vocal. Would work for breaking as well. Unlike Sharon I'm not a big fan of staking vocal dogs and making them watch all day. I get the principle behind it, however haven't had a lot of success personally with that method. Every dog is different. I also am not a big fan of correcting the dog and taking him from the line. I'm not there to teach dogs to walk a back and forth to the truck, i'm there to teach them their role in getting the work done. They have to understand they own being quiet, marking, steady, and retrieving the birds. Vocal is a very difficult thing to "fix" if you can really call it that. Best to be prevented from the ground up. 

/Paul


You must be slow, deliberate, quiet and not excited. There is no one fix for this and I will give you another option, in drill form you can try to improve this situation. I will note that while he can wear an ecollar, i don't like using ecollars for fixing vocal. It most of the time elicits vocal instead of discourages it. Use a healing stick, whiffle bat or something to tap the dog with. 

Start with the most unexciting retrieve object, a bumper. Have a person go out 30 or 40 yards on a flat field with 20 bumpers. Bring the dog to the line, under control on a leash. Have the thrower toss the bumper with no noise, fanfare or least amount of excitement. If the dog so much as peeps, breaths loudly, light stick correction, quiet "quiet" command, no retrieve. Have another bumper thrown. Same procedure unless the dog is extremely quiet, then let him get the bumper. Often they may have to watch quite a few bumpers until they calm down and you can send them.

Now if the dog is completely loud in this situation, well then you really have your work cut out for you. You may have to accept a 50% improvement in order to send him. What we're trying to do is reduce the excitement level in all aspect of the retrieve to simplify for him, and demonstrate that if he is quiet he gets to retrieve. If not he gets a light tap and no retrieve. Do this for a week and if you see improvement then add a piece of excitement level back into the equation. Vocal from the gunner, pistol shot, perhaps a bird. Do this for another week. Slowly increase the excitement factor as the dog gets better and better. Fact is this is never "cured" its controlled at best. You will have to watch this forever. When you get to consistent acceptable levels in the drill, you can go back to marking situations with your “new standard” and correction technique. This may be a while, really depends on the dog. 

Paul Cantrell
Black Ice Retrievers


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Here,s a drill I do for vocal. Would work for breaking as well. Unlike Sharon I'm not a big fan of staking vocal dogs and making them watch all day. I get the principle behind it, however haven't had a lot of success personally with that method. Every dog is different. I also am not a big fan of correcting the dog and taking him from the line. I'm not there to teach dogs to walk a back and forth to the truck, i'm there to teach them their role in getting the work done. They have to understand they own being quiet, marking, steady, and retrieving the birds. Vocal is a very difficult thing to "fix" if you can really call it that. Best to be prevented from the ground up.
> 
> /Paul
> 
> ...


I really like Paul's answer above mschwan .

I also think it good advice anytime you are At the line with the dog.

dont send unless all standards have met the zero tolerance level.

the BBQ prolly has a whole bag a birds or bumpers. If he has to use em all, so be it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I should add that vocal dogs also exhibit a lot of other behaviors like excessive movement, creeping, bouncing around, breaking, no OB focus. spending extra time with them reinforcing proper OB behaviors.

/Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Another thing that has helped me too , is to not make the mistake in training of just getting to the line and having the dog retrieve marks.

I have watched very experienced people train that when the dog does not co operate, part of the correction at the line may be a reminder of heeling with them in circles at the mat, followed by sit commands in the process.

after a reminder to the dog of its responsibilities, then back to work at MAYBE getting a mark. If they move, wine, lift a foot, the. Back to the obedience work on the mat.


I think the dog finally learns , that if it wants to go get bird, it MUST sit.

sit means but on ground ,no foot movement, and quiet.

A short tab leash works wonders too for that instant. Physical correction


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Tried Sharon's approach today for the first time and discovered a very interesting side effect: It made ME shut the heck up! It made ME quiet and still! It made the dog actually WANT to pay attention to My movements and follow my lead ( My dog's nick name is Front Seat Flyer) This method makes the dog do all the work. It's brilliant.

I had no idea HOW MUCH I TALK AND MOVE to try to gain control of the situation. "Heel, heel, sit, SIT, mark, sit, leg tap," I would get frustrated and amped up and end up walking off the mat and re positioning. How do you think that effects the dog???!

Being totally quiet today and still was so peaceful and it actually had a calming effect on the dog. On first mark she crept about 5 butt scoots and kept her butt hovering in the air. I waited about 30 seconds for her to re-heel to the tip of my left foot. She actually sat on the tip of my foot. Another 15 seconds and she whipped herself in the heeling motion, but still landed in front. I was weak and scraped my feet on the mat. She re-heeled correctly and I sent her. 

We did 4 more of those with increasing success. Then we ended with a double and she actually moved with me to look at each mark!!!!!! This method made her want to pay attention to MY movement!!!

This was all within 30 minutes!!! I am over the moon. We will be doing this forever.

Thank you Sharon!!!!


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

For people trying to change your dogs behavior creeping/noise or whatever don't forget you should always teach or in this case reteach in a YARD/DRILL environment. Teach before you take it live...Randy


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## mschwan (Jun 10, 2013)

I am impressed and thankful for the sound, useful, and timely information I have received in the last 24 hours on this thread on a problem that has perplexed me. While I will continue to use the vocal drill described by Paul and Gooser, my main problem is honoring without the dog throwing a complete fit. JS, your point about not rewarding him with the same set of marks for honoring another dogs work makes a lot of sense. It is not a cold honor I am talking about. But what is the reward and incentive? Not feeling the stick pressure, no matter how had, is not an incentive for this dog. I am hopeful that he learns while being staked that his vocal fits are not productive and land on deaf ears. My training group may go deaf in the process, however. Thanks everyone!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Randy Bohn said:


> For people trying to change your dogs behavior creeping/noise or whatever don't forget you should always teach or in this case reteach in a YARD/DRILL environment. Teach before you take it live...Randy


Agree 100%. I can usually pick out the dogs that will have a problem at the line, because they have the same loose standard everywhere else, at home, getting out of the truck, airing, etc. If you train it in the yard first and keep your standard high, it will transfer easily to the field. It's unrealistic (and unfair to the dog) to expect a dog that can't do the work in the yard with no excitement to suddenly improve the behavior at the line with guns and birds.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

mschwan said:


> I am impressed and thankful for the sound, useful, and timely information I have received in the last 24 hours on this thread on a problem that has perplexed me. While I will continue to use the vocal drill described by Paul and Gooser, my main problem is honoring without the dog throwing a complete fit. JS, your point about not rewarding him with the same set of marks for honoring another dogs work makes a lot of sense. It is not a cold honor I am talking about. But what is the reward and incentive? Not feeling the stick pressure, no matter how had, is not an incentive for this dog. I am hopeful that he learns while being staked that his vocal fits are not productive and land on deaf ears. My training group may go deaf in the process, however. Thanks everyone!


When I'm training at home, I've got six dogs on a chain gang, spaced six feet apart and on 18" drop lines coming up from the ground chain. The first dog off the chain to work is the calm one, whoever that may be. The others hang there and watch. They learn pretty quickly that if they aren't at the line, they may as well curl up and go to sleep. The new recruits have a hard time with this, and they may not do anything but learn the appropriate behavior on the chain (and in the kennel, at feeding time, etc....it's the same, be still and calm or get nothing) for the first week they're here. It may not seem like much is happening, but the behavior being shaped is invaluable.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Sharron
Your next step is to remove the chain but still have them sit there.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Breck said:


> Sharron
> Your next step is to remove the chain but still have them sit there.


 You mean like this?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Um? No. That's a line of dogs standing poised to break.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> ......, I've got six dogs on a chain gang,.......



wanna bet 3/4 of the folk reading this right now have no clue what a chain gang is??


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> wanna bet 3/4 of the folk reading this right now have no clue what a chain gang is??


"What we've got here...is....a failure to communicate!"


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Breck said:


> Um? No. That's a line of dogs standing poised to break.


 Sorry....but it's not. It's a group of pointing dogs, all staying put on "whoa", while they watch the working dog. We worked through the whole group, one dog at a time (or two if we were working on a backing drill) working on live birds during this. Whoa means whoa just like sit means sit.  This was an intermediate to advanced group of dogs, not beginners.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> wanna bet 3/4 of the folk reading this right now have no clue what a chain gang is??


You're probably right. It's the most valuable training tool I've got, though.


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## pixiebee (Mar 29, 2009)

Very nice!

Who is controlling the remotes? quick draw mcgraw?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I know they are on woah, just bustin' on us.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

pixiebee said:


> Very nice!
> 
> Who is controlling the remotes? quick draw mcgraw?


Training group....every handler is responsible for their own dog.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Had to revive this thread. It's a gem!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Had to revive this thread. It's a gem!


Thanks, I missed it the first time.


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## waycool (Jan 23, 2014)

Good stuff .. 

@/paul 

I agree with your ideas/methods on quiet at line/honoring.. I worry about simply staking the dog out .. in that it may exacerbate the anxiety by allowing it to continue to occur.. but that's just me.. Sometimes I feel like this mouthyness (technical term) can be created by just that (unsupervised watching )... .02

I would add a couple other ideas to both the creeping and honoring issue (I'm thinking out loud)... Ultimately the dog wants the bumper.. so a couple things we would use in pointing dogs is to use the ultimate reward (bird) to change the behavior.

So.. for example.. give the honoring dog a bumper to hold. If he does well.. THEN you can reward with a mark or some such.. 

For creeping... I wonder how often folks go get the bumper for the dog ? Sometimes pointing dogs.. break on shot due to the habit of getting the bird.. the "retrieve" (act of retrieving) is technically not the reward, having the bird in its mouth is.. by throwing a mark.. and having the dog sit still (and only if the dog sits still) you can simply go get the bumper yourself (perhaps with a short throw).. leaving the dog at sit.. and put the bumper in its mouth when you return.. reward received. In pointing dogs.. this makes the dog "THINK" before acting.. in that they are not sure whether YOU will go get the shot bird.. or if THEY will be asked to.. either way.. you have engaged them to think before acting (habit)... and most of the time.. that's a good thing 

just thoughts.. throw them away if you see fit.. wont hurt my feelings a bit..


@Sharon,

Love the pigging strings in the photo .... old Delmar Smith tool.. I keep one handy all the time..  

Regards,


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## melt (Apr 5, 2016)

Hi Sharon, would you please send me (or provide a link) your original post or or article on creeping. Thanks much

[email protected]


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

There isn't really a post or article, just something I shared with Stan at a hunt test a few years back, and worked with Carol on when they were here several years ago. It's really pretty simple:

First, applying pressure usually makes creeping worse. By applying pressure, I mean heeling stick/e-collar, etc....any physical or mechanical or verbal correction.

So how do we fix it? By thinking the way the dog does. Why does a dog creep? Because it is desperate for the retrieve and it's all anxiety (which is why we don't use pressure...it makes the anxious behavior escalate).

I'll use Carol and Indy as my example, because we worked on that every single day for two solid months before they actually ran a trial again (and for the first time ever, made it three series). Indy is what most of us would call a high roller or fire breather. And while breaking wasn't his thing (never say never, but he just wasn't a breaker), he'd often be about ten feet ahead of Carol, having scooted out there on his butt as the bird was thrown. Now keep in mind that this had gone on for a few years, so it was solidly ingrained in Indy's head. Additionally, all sorts of pressure corrections had been applied, which had escalated his anxiety.

However, he only wants one thing in life, and that is to run like a bat out of hell and retrieve. So that's how we worked on changing the behavior....used what HE wanted instead of what WE wanted. 

The first day, I told Carol we could fix this, and she looked at me like I had just sprouted two heads. And then when I told her she didn't have to do anything, she was even more confused. So...to the line we go. Shot is fired, bumper is thrown, and Indy has crept ten feet to the front, all a-quiver, waiting to be released. I told Carol to get comfy, because she was gonna be standing there awhile. Her transmitter was in her hand, behind her back, and I told her that the only thing that would earn a collar correction was a break. Otherwise, just stand there and wait. Say nothing, do nothing. Be quiet and let him figure out how to get what he wants. Carol was still confused, but I told her we were teaching Indy how to get what he wants, by making him problem solve on his own.

The first retrieve on the first day, it took almost twenty minutes of Carol standing there at the line, with Indy having crept way out in front. He looked like he was about to spontaneously combust (Carol's words), he was so wired, and he was used to getting sent. But finally, he glanced back at Carol and scooted back a bit. Then a bit further, and a little more...until he was finally back at heel. Carol said "send him?" I said no, not until he relaxes, really sits his butt down and commits to staying at heel. He finally did that, and was released for the bumper. From then on, every retrieve, every day, was the same routine, only the time got shorter and the creeping improved by leaps and bounds compared to where they started.

Dogs are smarter than we give them credit for. They can problem solve, if we're just patient enough to let them.  It means we have to shut up and stay out of their way and let them learn. That's hard for a lot of people to do, because we always seem to want to "do something".

Sometimes the quickest way to teach a dog something is to let them figure it out and most of all, be patient.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Unfortunately creeping is situational. You may think you have cured it in training, but the first test or trial shows if you fixed it or not. Most times the answer is they will still creep. The test is during a test and the dog wasn't cured.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> Unfortunately creeping is situational. You may think you have cured it in training, but the first test or trial shows if you fixed it or not. Most times the answer is they will still creep. The test is during a test and the dog wasn't cured.


 And that's when some of the best money spent is burning a few entry fees to help the dog understand that "under judgement" doesn't mean anything different. There isn't really a cure....there is shaping behavior and then holding the dog accountable...in all situations....for that learned behavior. Let it slide once, and you've given the dog permission to revert.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I am willing to do this (put the leash on at the line, go back to the truck, and drive home)... and have actually seen it work with a "trial wise" fire-breather. I know it can be effective. 

I know what the standard is. But I am having a hard time believing that all dogs are going to be absolutely the same when they are on line and watching the birds go down. This is an extremely powerful moment for them and no two dogs are alike.

The dog referenced above is an incredible dog but if standing still is the standard, you can wash him out right now. He cannot do it. But after years of a steady diet of almost exactly what's described here... he is silent, he does not leave the handler's side, but his feet are moving... he leans forward, swings with the gun, then pops backward when the next bird goes down, then leans forward, then self-corrects... he almost oscillates. He may move back and forth about 12 inches and when the last bird is down, his toenails are at the level of the handler's shoe laces and he's standing there like a statue. It's taken years of work, and it's constant maintenance. 

So, when do you say... this is what this dog can do and that's how we'll compromise.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

All dogs won't be the same, of course. But if the standard you want is set from the beginning, you've got a lot better shot at it than if you let it slide for a few years.  That's usually where the biggest difference is....how long has the incorrect behavior been allowed (and accepted?) It's ultimately up to the handler to decide what they will or will not accept.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I want to add a postscript to Sharon's comments. This method is powerful and really works on the creeping. In fact, Indy got to the third in every trial he ran subsequently. The biggest problem with Indy is that it came a little too late in life. You will find that advanced training is almost impossible when you spend so much time on this at each outing. You are not welcome in training groups because people have to get a lot of dogs to the line and can't give that much time to one. But even if you are able to find folks to work with, you still devote the majority of your time each day to steadyness because the dog does not change who he is. It's difficult if not impossible to work on blinds and tough concept marks when the dog can't remain calm enough to take direction. It has been heartbreaking to see Indy smash the first series every time, run good solid land blinds and then see the old self employed, I know better than you, come out on the water blind. Especially because I know that the water marks are his strong suit and if he could just get there, he'd ace it! As someone once commented to me, it's not always all my fault. Some dogs just come that way. Indy is now happily retired at 11 years old and is my best bud in the world. I have a younger dog that is the total opposite. He is calm, works well with me and let's me enjoy the game instead of being terrified when we go to the line. He has no where near the talent and heart that Indy has but makes up for it with his trainability. I don't believe you can ever truly "fix" an Indy, but I guarantee you will learn a ton trying! Thank you for your help Sharon. It really did improve the relationship I have with Indy. We had fun at each trial we ran thereafter and I learned to laugh at his 3rd series meltdowns.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> All dogs won't be the same, of course. But if the standard you want is set from the beginning, you've got a lot better shot at it than if you let it slide for a few years.  That's usually where the biggest difference is....how long has the incorrect behavior been allowed (and accepted?) It's ultimately up to the handler to decide what they will or will not accept.


I did this with my veteran creeper but we started with smaller victories and ramped it up. At first, he got to go when the butt hit the ground. Easily 20 minutes or so the first time, then as that got easier ramped things up until he was sitting on the mat next to me. As Carol notes, forget about training groups when doing this but it did work for mine. For a dog already doing AA work, the steadiness (watching the birds actually fall) was more important than any other marking training we could have done.

The sad part came we decided because of his arthritis to retire him. In his final trial he sat right next to me for every bird on the quad for the first time ever. Then the honor dog broke and we had to head back and do it all again. Needless to say, he was done, but I was so happy with his work he got a burger on the way home any way.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm just playing with the lowly pet dog but if you knew how many times I say "just wait" in a week you would think I had it written on the brim of my hat or something.


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

Great thread! This is why I check back here every day. Thanks!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

We are in a down time unable to go train with our group. So I took the wild-and-crazy girl to the park and gave this a try. First of all, let me stipulate that she KNOWS that nothing good occurs in life unless she SITS and DOESN'T MOVE. But I'll be honest, I've fallen into the handler's Tourette's Syndrome of HEELHEELSITSITNO... NOHEELHERESITSITSIT.

Yesterday (2 white bumpers, clipped green grass in the park) I tossed one and she was a foot in front of me locked in on the bumper. Waited. Waited some more. She was whining, squeaking, snorting, squeaking squeaking... this went on for 10 minutes. And finally she reheeled herself. We did this for over an hour and she got a total of maybe 4 retrieves. We did it again today and she was still out of position when the bumpers went down... and within seconds she threw her body back into heel position. No noise. 

And it is a relief for me not to be blabbering at her.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Glad it helped. Hard part is maintaining that standard, no matter what.


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## ducktrooper (Feb 5, 2015)

I have a couple questions about when you're training solo and using a handheld launcher. First, how much of a creep do you consider a creep? If dog raises and then lowers front paws a few inches forward, is this a creep?

Secondly, I often stand at a distance away from my dog and have noticed a creep when I launch the dummy. What would be the correction for this creep since I'm not at his side? Would it be picking up dummy and denying him?


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## FGD Mike Smith (Jan 5, 2012)

Great post. I know what I will be doing this evening


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## PDO (Jul 25, 2014)

ducktrooper said:


> Secondly, I often stand at a distance away from my dog and have noticed a creep when I launch the dummy. What would be the correction for this creep since I'm not at his side? Would it be picking up dummy and denying him?


Rarely I have to give a correction for a butt off the ground doing stand alones. Light nick on sit or whistle If I am a few hundred yards off. Pick up the bird and rethrow. This stuff is very important to me since often my dog is on a remote sit when hunting. But you aren't going to be able to "wait it out" with a remote sit as described in this thread.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Glad it helped. Hard part is maintaining that standard, no matter what.


It's harder when you have people watching but you have to do it and make them understand why.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

She is hysterical. Oh, the agony!!! Her groaning and squeaking, you'd think she was having an ear amputated. It's pressure she's putting on herself. I simply want her toes behind mine. She now backs up (readily) but wants her toes out front. I REFUSE to bend over and stretch myself over the length of her spine to send her. So now she knows this. But... she is trying to fake it. Picking her butt up, shuffling her feet (as if she's stepping back) but not actually moving back those extra 2 inches. 

BUT... there is synergy going on here. When she is in position, she knows she is about to be sent... and she gets still as a statue and silent as the grave.

Man... last night, it was so funny listening to her complain about being ignored, I started laughing. She looked up at me like "what is your problem, lady?" then locked back on the bumper and started squeaking again. 

Eventually, she got the idea and capitulated.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

1tulip said:


> She is hysterical. Oh, the agony!!! Her groaning and squeaking, you'd think she was having an ear amputated. It's pressure she's putting on herself. I simply want her toes behind mine. She now backs up (readily) but wants her toes out front. I REFUSE to bend over and stretch myself over the length of her spine to send her. So now she knows this. But... she is trying to fake it. Picking her butt up, shuffling her feet (as if she's stepping back) but not actually moving back those extra 2 inches.
> 
> BUT... there is synergy going on here. When she is in position, she knows she is about to be sent... and she gets still as a statue and silent as the grave.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have an alpha....the stuff they do....


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

"Eventually, she got the idea and capitulated."


I hope you had a plastic bag in your pocket!!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Capitulated. Not eliminated. We're talking body movements, not bowel movements.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Great thread!


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

I have read parts of this thread and it looks very interesting and I plan to work on the suggestions. 

I am a first time hunt test dog owner, and she is high drive. Due to logistics (and this year is worse than most) getting to a "training ground" is extremely difficult. I live about 1 hour from any thing considered "country". So that limits me to noise, and use of ducks. Also, it is pretty much just my husband and myself training together. I get with a group about 2 times a month this year. In training, my dog does not creep. At tests... she will break. She has broken twice, and both times she was called back before she could get to the duck, leashed up and taken home. My question is any ideas how I can recreate the adrenalin of the hunt test to encourage her to make improper decisions? 

A couple things I plan to try, first is taking a step back at the line and doing the patience work until she comes to heel position. She doesn't creep so I need to get her thinking to back up. Secondly, maybe take the collar off (?) since she might be collar wise? Though I don't know how I would correct a break. I have had people suggest the heeling stick if she moves but I worry that will make her concerned about what is going on behind her, instead of looking ahead at the marks. 

Back ground, like I said my first dog, we are currently running master (3 passes 5 tests). Her last 2 senior passses, and her master passes is where the creeping has reared it's ugly head. She was MUCH better after the first test she broke at, and did not get any ducks. She sat for the next test, just crept minutely on the last series. My dog is 5.5 yrs, and is a golden retriever. Unfortunately right now, I do not have the expertise of a pro to help me and I am a bit at a loss of what I can work on, on my own. Lastly, are there any yard/obedience drills that would help me?

Thanks


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

It's hard to simulate the energy/adrenaline of a HT. But ANYTHING you can do to make her wait silent as the grave and still as a statue has got to help. FOOD. Doorways. The truck. The crate. WHATEVER she wants. No free-style tennis ball romps... (my husband was guilty of doing this with Ram Jet Rocket Dog and it showed when I went to work her.) If tossing one bumper from the line doesn't work, throw three. Whatever you can do to make her want to twitch. 

I wish I'd begun this sooner. But now I'm doing anything I can think of to make her learn to wait, silently and still.


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## Wayne Nissen (Dec 31, 2009)

Don't count on it


Scott Adams said:


> I'm hoping I can apply this theory to my marriage........


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

ducktrooper said:


> I have a couple questions about when you're training solo and using a handheld launcher. First, how much of a creep do you consider a creep? If dog raises and then lowers front paws a few inches forward, is this a creep?*YES a little creep in training invariably becomes a huge creep in events when you can do nothing but pick him up for the day when he creeps.*
> 
> Secondly, I often stand at a distance away from my dog and have noticed a creep when I launch the dummy. What would be the correction for this creep since I'm not at his side? Would it be picking up dummy and denying him?*YES pick up the dummy so he learns he will not be rewarded after a small creep*


This is one of the reasons I start by using a hand held launcher behind the pup...I can easily see if he creeps, and if he moves
an inch, I pick it up and launch again. 

I also make sure he is totally focused on each mark and not me as the "launcher"
...I want the habit of total pinpoint focus on that mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzDUiVeudw


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

We will see if this silent treatment has had a positive effect. I have been gone from training (with a group) for 2 weeks due to family issues. MEANWHILE... in everything in life she has had to earn her way with silence and proper position. We're even doing a "dinner drill". (Two bowls... 8 feet away. Handful of kibbles in one. Must be in heel position on her own initiative, and quiet... gets released. Kibbles in bowl 2 same deal... and so on. She KNOWS she gets nothing if she isn't quiet. 









Well, anyhow... first day back with the group and we're going to do marks. We'll see what happens.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

I wonder how that will transfer at a trial, when they are hyped-up and not wearing a correction collar?


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Best thread I've read in a while. As one who always has dogs that have always had happy feet ,we will do this today with the wingers . Lost one at the MH this past weekend on a double ! And thought for sure the SH was gone too...Time to tighten the standards. thanks


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

After years of battling noise and creeping and 3 knee surgeries AND being advised he would likely never run again, he ran this past Sat.
There were about 60 dogs entered and about 12-14 of them BROKE!

Elvis had a controlled break and re-heeled on the 1st series.
Solid as a rock on the 2nd, though we re-heeled him he sat on the walk up steady.
He was just out a bit.
He was silent on both series with just a bit of noise on the approach to the spot on the 1st series.


No great shakes to many, but we have been through a lot.
It's been 3-1/2 years since we ran.
We passed.

This drill was a huge part of that pass.
Along with all the stuff I could get people to share with me that was helpful.
It ain't easy, but it can be done!

I have thoughts on the heartbreak of this issue, but this is probably not the place to share.

Those of youy fighting this issue........."keep on keepin' on, that's all I know to do!"

We will now start running MH.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Stan, maybe you should try and run a Senior and pass without a controlled break since there are no CB in Master.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Congratulations on the pass! Lot easier said than done, and you done it.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Stan, maybe you should try and run a Senior and pass without a controlled break since there are no CB in Master.


This test was a SH for that reason. 
I know what we have to do, we are ready .

Thanks Nancy, you were part of this process too.
Right now I am just sort of happy he ran at all.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

*WOW*

Un-friggin'-believable.

Now, I know we still are not there... we will NEVER be there. It's ALWAYS going to be a way of life for Rocket Dog and me.

But having not run her on marks for weeks and weeks, I totally expected that she would give me the jazz. ("OK... I know I haven't been able to run-and-gun the pro but... MOMMY'S BACK!) This is the way it's always worked with us.

Holy crap! She saw the guns out there, lined up with her toes behind my heels and sat like a rock. We did a double and then a beyond long single that was very tough to visualize, didn't break the horizon. I had to handle. But so what!!! She was steady!!!

Now, I know my heart is going to be broken at the first Senior we've ever run coming up this weekend. We'll just see what happens. I don't expect a break, but we'll see how she does with her toes.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

OK... can we revisit this? I'm guilty as hell.

She crept (and that's a kind way to put it) at her first Senior. I did not pull her off line. I know that will be necessary from here on out. But that's some time in the future at this time of year.

Meanwhile, in training with the group... she is doing OK. But not 100%. And in training alone... here's what's happening.

I will wait her out. She won't like it. But eventually after a lot of "pretend" scooting back... trying to fake me out... she eventually gets to proper heel position. And that's as much as she's willing to do. It's like she has "learned" that after dancing around and scooting her butt around for a while she will always get the bumper.

(BTW: We shot fliers yesterday and she jumped forward 6 inches and got taken back to the truck.)

Please advise.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

1tulip said:


> OK... can we revisit this? I'm guilty as hell.
> 
> She crept (and that's a kind way to put it) at her first Senior. I did not pull her off line. I know that will be necessary from here on out. But that's some time in the future at this time of year.
> 
> ...


 I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I believe there is little to be gained by taking the dog back to the truck. Correct the initial movement, pick up the bird and re-throw it until the dog watches the mark with no movement. High standards!


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## Julie Rihn (Mar 29, 2012)

So how quickly do you throw the mark after he heels? Immediately so he can make the connection? Or wait a few seconds to keep that stillness a bit longer? Thanks


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Wait until the dog relaxes and commits to sitting perfectly still. That few seconds longer gives the dog a chance to really settle. 
And this is mostly done for dogs that creep after the mark is thrown, although there's no reason it won't work prior.


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Here,s a drill I do for vocal. Would work for breaking as well. Unlike Sharon I'm not a big fan of staking vocal dogs and making them watch all day. I get the principle behind it, however haven't had a lot of success personally with that method. Every dog is different. I also am not a big fan of correcting the dog and taking him from the line. I'm not there to teach dogs to walk a back and forth to the truck, i'm there to teach them their role in getting the work done. They have to understand they own being quiet, marking, steady, and retrieving the birds. Vocal is a very difficult thing to "fix" if you can really call it that. Best to be prevented from the ground up.
> 
> /Paul
> 
> ...



We used this on 2 dogs this summer and it came from Lardy via Ray V and it’s good to teach the dog to understand the reason he can’t get the mark but it’s just one more tool
and not an end all of vocal issues. 0 tolerance is needed with a combination of drills, withholding birds or blinds where vocal, and occasionally (with consistent # of attempts ) going to the truck( yes I believe they are that smart) and progress can be made but you also have to be prepared to eat some entry fees. To me this is a career ending problem in some dogs and one that pros don’t want to spend the time and patience to correct after it’s gone unaddressed. As the Albanian said in Taken-“Good Luck “


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

Thanks Stan and Sharon....best post on 'creeping' I have read! 

I have a SH that has been sloppy at the line. Today, she will get a good lesson....nice cool day to work on remembering what is supposed to happen at the line.....

In your opinions, will this drill also study her up when honoring? She creeps a bit on that also....


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## fetchitupup (Jun 23, 2008)

JimB said:


> I have used this type of correction to deal with heeling and creeping issues starting this spring and have noticed a big improvement already. At the end of today's training I tried something new I had seen on here in the past.
> 
> I set 2 wingers up about 40 yards apart and facing the pond with a stool in the middle of them...all about 10 yards from the water. I started standing behind the car as a holding blind and did the calls on the wingers a few times before heading to the line a few minutes later. On our first attempt he was lunging in front so he got a heel and nick as I turned back to the holding blind. We repeated the calling from the wingers and waited a few minutes before going back up. This time he heeled properly all the way.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim, will try this sounds like a great set up.


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