# "Silver" receives 3rd place in AKC Conformation Show



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

At the Piedmont Kennel Club's AKC All Breed show (Event No: 2015136301), the Labrador Retrievers were judged by Mrs. Judy Webb.

In the 12 - 18 month dog class, there were 2 entries. One was clearly a Chocolate Labrador Retriever and the other was a silver looking Labrador Retriever. The judge placed the dogs as follows: The clearly Chocolate Labrador Retriever was awarded First Place; the silver looking Labrador Retriever was given a third place ribbon.

This silver looking Labrador Retriever should have been disqualified due to the coat color.

The AKC Rep who was on site stated that it was up to the judge to disqualify the silver looking Labrador Retriever; the judge obviously did not do so.
It was recommend to talk to the owner of the silver looking Labrador Retriever to try and educate the owner about coat color. 

This owner can now "brag" that her silver looking Labrador Retriever received 3rd place in an AKC dog show. 


Very interesting that a dog can be given a 3rd place ribbon when only 2 dogs were entered in that particular class and only one was within breed standard.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I wonder who paid "THE JUDGE". Just saying.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

If there were only 2 dogs how did the "silver" get 3rd?


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Daren Galloway said:


> If there were only 2 dogs how did the "silver" get 3rd?


Judge's option I guess  Maybe it's like getting a JAM???


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Geez, what kind of precedent does THAT set? Crazy.


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

The third place in this case is essentially a disqualification, but lets the judge skip the paper work of a real dq. As a third place "winner" the dog is ineligible to go on any further for a higher placement; like reserve winner. As a second place "winner" the dog would have been eligible for a higher placement especially if no other dogs were entered. It also keeps any points that might be eligible as if the dog is formally dqed, it might lower the point count for the win. To further complicate things, labs are also generally sorted and judged by color first. Interesting to hear what color the silver was entered under. 

In dog shows, the class dogs (non Champions) are divided by sex, puppy ages, and a host of other categories. After each male classes are judged, the winner from those classes compete for winners male. The second place dog from the class that the winners male came from then enters the ring and competes for the reserve winners male ribbon. The same procedure then follows for the bitch class. Finally the winners male and winners bitch compete with the titled dogs for the best of breed or best of opposite sex titles. They also compete for the best of winners.

T. Mac


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

3rd place in any class is worth nothing. It's like getting dropped in the first series of a field event. Ribbons usually hit the nearest trash can. Only 1st place in each class goes on to compete for points.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Doesn't the Club have responsibility for entries?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

incompetent judge, she should be sanctioned ( or what ever word it is in the show world) for not DQ'ing the dog.


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

If its like Horse shows (and I believe it is) if the judge had DQ'd the silver it would have prevented the 1st place dog from earning points for the win. Somebody pointed out above that the 3rd would have effectively been a DQ and this is correct. I would be willing to bet that if more dogs had been entered, the placements would have excluded the silver or possibly a DQ....maybe a smart bit of rule usage by the judge to penalize the silver without penalizing the Choc.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

The point is the dog got a ribbon with a disqualifying fault. Three DQ's and you can no longer show the individual. The silver dog can now " brag" that it has received a ribbon at an AKC dog show. Screw the points, the dog needed to be DQ'd .


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

duckdawg27 said:


> If its like Horse shows (and I believe it is) if the judge had DQ'd the silver it would have prevented the 1st place dog from earning points for the win. Somebody pointed out above that the 3rd would have effectively been a DQ and this is correct. I would be willing to bet that if more dogs had been entered, the placements would have excluded the silver or possibly a DQ....maybe a smart bit of rule usage by the judge to penalize the silver without penalizing the Choc.


Interesting; however I bet we will see it used as a silver tout


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

By the way ,the points would not have changed at this show. Can't wait to see what happens at todays show... if the dog shows, it should be interesting


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## Jwattsmojo (Jul 15, 2013)

Who cares theyl never win a ft lol


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> By the way ,the points would not have changed at this show. Can't wait to see what happens at todays show... if the dog shows, it should be interesting


Which dog show is this? Sorry found it was looking in the PA area not SC.

Mrs. Webb is a very good and well respected judge of the sporting group. The show was a 2 point show. 10 dogs for 2 points 18 dogs for 3 points in SC. 16 dogs were entered. The dog in question was in the 12-18 month puppy class as it is 15 months old. And was the 4th dog in the ring. The judge was probably trying to send a message to the owner as saying you got 3rd place with only 2 dogs entered just about says it all.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

duckdawg27 said:


> If its like Horse shows (and I believe it is) if the judge had DQ'd the silver it would have prevented the 1st place dog from earning points for the win. Somebody pointed out above that the 3rd would have effectively been a DQ and this is correct. I would be willing to bet that if more dogs had been entered, the placements would have excluded the silver or possibly a DQ....maybe a smart bit of rule usage by the judge to penalize the silver without penalizing the Choc.


This is not true. DQ'ing a dog has no effect on the dog that won the class.... it would still go on to compete for Winner's Dog and any available points as if the DQ'ed dog was simply absent.


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

Bridget Bodine said:


> incompetent judge, she should be sanctioned ( or what ever word it is in the show world) for not DQ'ing the dog.


Agree, she should not be asked to judge in the future.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> The point is the dog got a ribbon with a disqualifying fault. Three DQ's and you can no longer show the individual. The silver dog can now " brag" that it has received a ribbon at an AKC dog show. Screw the points, the dog needed to be DQ'd .


Yes, this..... Sadly, the silver fans or pet people, who know nothing about what it actually means(or doesnt mean), will use that to fan their fire, that silvers are 'real' labradors, because one got a ribbon in a dog show. Someone asked, I think it was T Mac, the dog was shown as a chocolate- as thats, how AKC gets around refusing this as a purebred-they allow them registered as chocolates. What happened at that dog show was a travesty- absolutely disgusting...


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

I do not know anything about scoring in the show ring but if two dogs are entered in a contest of any kind and you are awarded third place I think the judge is sending you a clear message and it's not that you have a nice dog.!


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

She withheld the second place ribbon which is saying it's not worthy. THE PROBLEM???

The owner is going to use that ribbon as marketing. No one is going to know (read-pet people) that the second place ribbon was withheld.

By doing this, this way, paperwork was avoided. It needed to be Dq'd.

It did not show today, but apparantly the owner is pissed and filing a complaint against some exhibitors that tried to have a conversation with her.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

and she probably should - the system has to take care of this - other exhibitors need to exhibit good sportsmanship and let those who have the ability to effect the situation do so


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I wish the other exhibitor yesterday had filed a dispute!!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

This person also filed a complaint that along with some people talking to her (supposedly harassing her, although from what the people present say, it was a conversation with questions from the person showing the dog to the other people, so doubtful if it was harassment) and also another complaint that people were NOT talking to her. So apparently in her little world, you can file a complaint if no one wants to talk to you at a dog show because you are blatantly breaking an obvious rule and no one wants to be your friend.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Maybe she will realize that neither she, nor her silver mongrel belong in a dog show in the first place and go home.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

I'm vending in Greenville this weekend and actually saw the dog yesterday. Small male. Looked chocolate with a silver over-cast to it especially on the face and head. I walked by it, petted it and asked "So is this a silver lab?" and she said yes! I just assumed it was a pet there to check out the show with its owner.
Judy Webb is a very good judge. Her decision is a good one. To be honest, anyone could look at the dog and argue it was chocolate, that's how odd the coloration was. She may have had a hard time defending her decision to disqualify based on color should the owner appeal such a decision. However no owner can appeal a 3rd place ribbon in a class of two due to lack of quality of the exhibit. That is the judge's discretion and option. Smart move on the judge's part.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Results on infodog:
http://www.infodog.com/RESULTS/2015136301/201513630113200.HTM


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

&#55357;&#56867;
sires name Silvertone Shine And Shimmer
funny


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

I wonder if she considered excusing the dog for lack of merit? That might have opened a whole new can of worms, however, because the dog is registered as a chocolate which is a parent club and AKC approved color. 

Here is a little blurb I found on the AKC website about color disqualification: *

Can dogs be registered with a color or marking that is considered a disqualification in Conformation according to the breed standard?*
Decisions about acceptable colors and markings for registration and Conformation competition are made by the national breed clubs for each of the respective breeds. In addition to color information in the breed standards related to Conformation, the national breed clubs also determine what colors may be used in the registration of their breed. While some colors may be disqualifications within the breed standard, dogs of a disqualifiable color may still be registered. However, AKC may ask for color pictures of the dogs prior to registration. For example, in the case of Miniature Schnauzers, dogs will not be registered as white unless pictures are submitted with the Registration Application. Two 3 x 5 color photographs (close up front view and standing side view) must be submitted or the application will be delayed.

The AKC standard, as written by the parent club The Labrador Retriever Club of America, defines chocolate: 

Chocolate
-
Chocolates can vary in shade 
from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.

Under disqualifications the standard lists these: 

Disqualifications
: 
1. Any deviation from the height prescribed in the Standard.
2. A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment.
3. Eye rims without pigment.
4. Docking or otherwise altering the length or natural carriage of the tail.
5. Any other color or a combination of colors other than black, yellow or chocolate as described in the Standard.

Appears the judge was between a rock and hard place because how does she define chocolate when the AKC registers silver-colored dogs as chocolates and the parent club does not specifically mention silver as a disqualification? It seems specifically mentioning silver as a disqualifying color would be something show and field lab breeders/fanciers could agree on? But then how to define silver?

Does the Labrador Retriever Illustrated Standard have pictures of approved colors and shadings for the breed? Or has there been a compilation of approved colors/shading for judges?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Good point.


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

Check out Silvertone L abs website for some fun reading


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

The silver looking Lab did not show today because the owner/handler arrived too late to enter the class.

Will be interesting to hear if she shows up tomorrow.

As others have stated, the problem (IMO) is that this breeder of Labs, Weims and other breeds, can now brag that her intact male received 3rd place at an AKC show. This will appear to give legitimacy to the "silver" color.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

J. Marti said:


> I wonder if she considered excusing the dog for lack of merit? That might have opened a whole new can of worms, however, because the dog is registered as a chocolate which is a parent club and AKC approved color.
> 
> Here is a little blurb I found on the AKC website about color disqualification:
> 
> ...


As highlighted:

1) Just because you can register a Silver Lab, doesn't mean Silver isn't a disqualification.

2) Silver isn't Black, Yellow, or Chocolate, thus it is a disqualifying color.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Furball said:


> I'm vending in Greenville this weekend and actually saw the dog yesterday. Small male. Looked chocolate with a silver over-cast to it especially on the face and head. I walked by it, petted it and asked "So is this a silver lab?" and she said yes! I just assumed it was a pet there to check out the show with its owner.
> Judy Webb is a very good judge. Her decision is a good one. To be honest, anyone could look at the dog and argue it was chocolate, that's how odd the coloration was. She may have had a hard time defending her decision to disqualify based on color should the owner appeal such a decision. However no owner can appeal a 3rd place ribbon in a class of two due to lack of quality of the exhibit. That is the judge's discretion and option. Smart move on the judge's part.


THANK YOU ! First hand Facts always beat 3rd hand opinions from 2nd rate sources.


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## 150class (Jul 1, 2003)

is there a pic of this particular dog somewhere?


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

The silver was diqualified today.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

The dog showed today and was disqualified by the judge (Ann Yuhasz)


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Time for the LRC to perhaps tighten the standard a bit further, spelling out clearly and firmly that any dilute color is a disqualification. No vague terminology like "may" or "should", instead going with "must" or "shall".


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

suepuff said:


> The silver was diqualified today.


Hallelujah!!


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

In 1986 the [Labrador Retriever] Club attempted to have AKC deny registration of Labradors identified with the “silver” coat color. That did not happen after an AKC representative investigating the breeding facilities of the dogs exhibiting the dilute coat color made the decision to categorize the color as chocolate under the “other” option on the registration application. Subsequent generations of dogs carrying the dilute gene remain in breeding programs, many bred to recognized titled dogs. 

Scientific evidence has shown us that there is no evidence of a dilute gene in the coat color background of the Labrador Retriever. Despite the Parent Club’s multiple attempts to request that the American Kennel Club deny full registration to dogs exhibiting a dilute coat color, these dogs still remain in the breeding pool and kennels focusing on dilute coat colors proliferate. 

At this time, our best option to protect the gene pool for the Labrador Retriever is to encourage the use of the DNA test to identify carriers of the dilute gene. I want to urge each of you, especially those with active stud dogs, to have breeding stock tested for the dilute gene and include the information in your advertising. I am also suggesting that we add the test to the requirements for an LRC, Inc. Breeders’ Directory listing.


Fred Kampo, Jr.

President, The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> THANK YOU ! First hand Facts always beat 3rd hand opinions from 2nd rate sources.


My sharing the information may be second hand, but it was from a very good friend who was at the event and definitely not a "2nd rate sources".


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Here you go---- http://www.jblabradors.com/
Dog is Rufus who was entered and dq'd today. http://www.jblabradors.com/Rufus
Not only is he clearly NOT chocolate, but he is apparently undersized as well acc'g to my sources there at the show. 
It appears to me that not only should the judges take off the rose colored glasses if color is in question, but perhaps they need to pull out the wicket more often as well. The pigment should have given this dog away to any Lab judge.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

the bigger question should be " Why is AKC giving these breeders and pups papers ? "


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Because AKC considers them chocolate. They know better than the breed club you know. The "expert" they sent to see the Kellogg facility, without a LRC representative said they were chocolate so it must be so.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Jwattsmojo said:


> Who cares theyl never win a ft lol


This question is probably worthy of its own thread, but what are you and your committee going to do when a known Silver Bullet enters your field trial? 
I suspect that, according to the rules, you're just going to have to cringe and bear it.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> This question is probably worthy of its own thread, but what are you and your committee going to do when a known Silver Bullet enters your field trial?
> I suspect that, according to the rules, you're just going to have to cringe and bear it.


My point exactly. you need to take this battle to the front office don't put it all on the clubs and Judges. It ultimately begins and ends with the AKC.....


Just a field guys .02 !!!!!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

If it's a legal entry why would you have to cringe and bear it?


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Thomas D said:


> If it's a legal entry why would you have to cringe and bear it?


For the same reason that acknowledging a silver lab in the confirmation ring is a joke. They belong in the same company as labradoodles, goldendoodles and other half breeds.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

So you're saying you should "cringe" with ANY entry in a FT that has a DQ fault in the show ring?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thomas D said:


> So you're saying you should "cringe" with ANY entry in a FT that has a DQ fault in the show ring?


careful what people wish for


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

As a person who doesn't want to ultimately see the breed split, yes.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> As a person who doesn't want to ultimately see the breed split, yes.


its already split isn't it ???


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The issue I see is with what is called "interpretation" of the breed standard. AKC has screwed up big time on this, and the rep who did the investigating has said he messed up. But now AKC won't fix it. That could, should a court case ever come of it. lead to the dilutes being considered an interpretation of the standard. As it stands right now, stuff in the standard like "short coupled", meaning very close to as long as tall, is "interpreted" by most show folks as 20% longer than tall is OK because its the way I interpret the standard. Or "brisket should not extend perceivable below the elbow" is interpreted as "chest hanging three inches below the elbow is fine because that's how I interpret those words.

The trickle down is happening too. UKC's policy is that they will not knowingly register a silver Lab. But since they accept AKC papers, the silvers slide by as chocolate and get registered anyway, since UKC has no way of knowing. 

The LRC needs to tighten the standard up further and make a clear statement that dilutes are disqualified. And even more important, the AKC needs to back them up and DO SOMETHING besides take money.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> AKC has screwed up big time on this, and the rep who did the investigating has said he messed up. But now AKC won't fix it.


Sharon, they can't fix it. I spoke to Bill Speck at a HT about 15 years ago and the only way they can fix it is to dig up the bones of that Weim and that's not ever happening. Dean Crist knew what he was doing and it already had been too many generations. It can't be proven it was done on purpose because it could be a mutation. A double mutation not plausible by the same guy in the northwoods. At one time he had a reward up-maybe 25 years ago to anybody that could prove it was not a lab. It was a bad mistake [/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE] The LRC needs to tighten the standard up further and make a clear statement that dilutes are disqualified. And even more important, the AKC needs to back them up and DO SOMETHING besides take money. [/QUOTE]

I agree with that. You can't stop them from breeding, but they should be disqualified from the ring just like Brindles, non-pigmented (Dudley) Labs etc.


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

suepuff said:


> Because AKC considers them chocolate. They know better than the breed club you know. The "expert" they sent to see the Kellogg facility, without a LRC representative said they were chocolate so it must be so.


Not pickin on you but your post seemed the most appropriate one to comment on. The Silvers will all DNA test out as Chocolate and are by the current AKC standard accepted as chocolate. Silver is not a separate color but just a diluted Choc. The Silver will also have two copies of the dd (dilute gene) something that AKC does not test for. LRC is suggesting dilute testing but does not require it. Even if they require it AKC is not likely to follow the requirement. Since AKC has been accepting Chocolate since the beginning and every Silver will have undeniable DNA evidence that they are Chocolate they do not currently have a leg to stand on.
I personally would welcome and accept a "limited" registration on every Lab pup registered and only convert to full registration the ones that are chipped and VPI-DNA tested for the dd. I think people are afraid of this option and fear it would also be applied to "other" things.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Had a fellow bring a "silver" to the line at a junior HT few years ago. My co-judge's eyes 'bout popped out of her skull. "No worries" I said. "That weim won't make it to the next series." And it didn't. That the dog blinked the first bird down made our job easy. I see the same guy occasionally on the SE circuit but he never ran under me again and I never saw that "silver" again. If another one came to the line under me I expect the results would be the same. "Thank you. Have a safe trip home."


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Good Dogs said:


> Had a fellow bring a "silver" to the line at a junior HT few years ago. My co-judge's eyes 'bout popped out of her skull. "No worries" I said. "That weim won't make it to the next series." And it didn't. That the dog blinked the first bird down made our job easy. I see the same guy occasionally on the SE circuit but he never ran under me again and I never saw that "silver" again. If another one came to the line under me I expect the results would be the same. "Thank you. Have a safe trip home."


You really find it appropriate to drop a legally entered and registered dog, or treat it differently in terms of standards because of it's coat color? 

Pretty frightening.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

I dont believe they dropped it Darren, I think it dropped itself by not picking up a bird. Doesnt matter what it is-it has to deliver a bird to hand. No different standards there- UGLY, Mongrel, or not.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I've judged a few of these gray dogs. And I judge the dog, not the color. If it deserves a pass, it gets one. Most of the time, the owner is a newbie who's been suckered by these "breeders", and they love their dog, which is as it should be. No reason for prejudice. Now if the day comes when UKC says DQ them, I will...but until then we've been instructed to judge them just like any other dog.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

duckdawg27 said:


> Not pickin on you but your post seemed the most appropriate one to comment on. The Silvers will all DNA test out as Chocolate and are by the current AKC standard accepted as chocolate. Silver is not a separate color but just a diluted Choc. The Silver will also have two copies of the dd (dilute gene) something that AKC does not test for. LRC is suggesting dilute testing but does not require it. Even if they require it AKC is not likely to follow the requirement. Since AKC has been accepting Chocolate since the beginning and every Silver will have undeniable DNA evidence that they are Chocolate they do not currently have a leg to stand on.
> I personally would welcome and accept a "limited" registration on every Lab pup registered and only convert to full registration the ones that are chipped and VPI-DNA tested for the dd. I think people are afraid of this option and fear it would also be applied to "other" things.


Not true. The silvers carry dd....chocolates do not. The fact that AKC screwed up years ago and now can't change it does not change the fact that the dilute gene is not present in purebred Labs.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> You really find it appropriate to drop a legally entered and registered dog, or treat it differently in terms of standards because of it's coat color?
> 
> Pretty frightening.


LOL. Bob would not do that, but the quality of work from at least the ones around here tends to be 'less than consistent' to put it nicely. I believe there is one that has a MH--or at least runs MH tests--but it needs a certain kind of test or the right day to get through and is not likely to pass one of Bob's.


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm sure there is more to it as I don't know much about the silver controversy. My question is, was there this much objection to the totally white or totally red labs being called yellow? How much variation is allowed in Chocolates, I've seen some almost black and some that look like chessies.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> You really find it appropriate to drop a legally entered and registered dog, or treat it differently in terms of standards because of it's coat color?
> 
> Pretty frightening.


It's not about the color. It's about whether the dog is truly a full blooded labrador. And looks like a labrador. And, more important, has the talents one would expect from a full blooded labrador or other true retriever. 
The "silvers" I've seen could just as easily pass as weimaraners. Have yet to see a "lab with a silver coat." And the folks who are duping ill-informed buyers should not expect any help in their charade. If the dog does the work, it gets a ribbon. But I've yet to see a "silver" that could.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Good Dogs said:


> It's not about the color. It's about whether the dog is truly a full blooded labrador. And looks like a labrador. And, more important, has the talents one would expect from a full blooded labrador or other true retriever.
> The "silvers" I've seen could just as easily pass as weimaraners. Have yet to see a "lab with a silver coat." And the folks who are duping ill-informed buyers should not expect any help in their charade. If the dog does the work, it gets a ribbon. But I've yet to see a "silver" that could.


Every one I have seen has been a mess temperament wise much less able to do the work. I get that part. Sorry if I misread your original post.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

SamLab1 said:


> I'm sure there is more to it as I don't know much about the silver controversy. My question is, was there this much objection to the totally white or totally red labs being called yellow? How much variation is allowed in Chocolates, I've seen some almost black and some that look like chessies.


Light choc to Dark chocolate according to the standard. Just keeping it simple, what is the range of color of chocolate in a Hershey's sampler? Milk choc would be light, and Dark choc would be dark. Cream to Fox red is the range of yellows.... same thing. All still Labs, just different colors. The problem w/ dilutes is it's not THERE naturally in the gene pool, and never has. Looking at the names of this dogs' relatives, at least 2 have the words "Grey" in their AKC names. Who has ever seen a Grey Lab? Grey ghost is the nickname of Weims though... right? What a coicidence.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

SamLab1 said:


> I'm sure there is more to it as I don't know much about the silver controversy. My question is, was there this much objection to the totally white or totally red labs being called yellow? How much variation is allowed in Chocolates, I've seen some almost black and some that look like chessies.


The difference is the light cream to red fox is genetically yellow , NOT carrying the dilute gene.Light chocolate could be just that , NOT carrying the dilute gene or it COULD carry the dilute gene


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Good Dogs said:


> Had a fellow bring a "silver" to the line at a junior HT few years ago. My co-judge's eyes 'bout popped out of her skull. "No worries" I said. "That weim won't make it to the next series." And it didn't. That the dog blinked the first bird down made our job easy. I see the same guy occasionally on the SE circuit but he never ran under me again and I never saw that "silver" again. If another one came to the line under me I expect the results would be the same. "Thank you. Have a safe trip home."


I am not a pro-silver person by any means but I really hope you didn't actually say that about a dog you were judging, before you'd even see it work... that seems rather unsportsmanlike particularly from a judge


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I think you're misinterpreting what Good Dogs meant. I take it to mean that he was pretty sure that the silver wouldn't be able to do the work, and he didn't (blinked the bird, failed the series.) And I'd bet he said it to the other judge, not the handler.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Erin Lynes said:


> I am not a pro-silver person by any means but I really hope you didn't actually say that about a dog you were judging, before you'd even see it work... that seems rather unsportsmanlike particularly from a judge


I don't prejudge dogs based on their color, or breed. (See my pic in the avatar if you wonder why.) But, esp at lower levels of HTs you can tell a lot about a dog while it's still in the holding blind and as it comes to the line. After all, dogs are under judgment from the time they are called from the holding blind. Had the "silver" surprised me and done the work expected, it would have gotten a ribbon. But from the time it stepped out of the blind it was obvious the dog did not belong in that field and my co-judge and I had no problem folding that page after the first bird.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I guess I just don't understand giving a DQ dog a ribbon, I mean if someone choose to show a Dudley or a Black and Tan they would be DQ. Perhaps the judges just haven't had instructions on how to deal with it. But as the rules are already in place for other color DQ, I can't see how silver would be any different. UKC conformation judge are required to report the color to UKC so they can investigate faulty registration; UKC doesn't consider silver to be chocolate. They also require pictures for any labrador who has the word silver in the reg name. I'm sure some sneak thru but at least their trying to minimize it.

Still a conformation show with only 2 lab, hmm might take my field lab over, see if we can place above a DQ colored lab


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

Good Dogs said:


> Had a fellow bring a "silver" to the line at a junior HT few years ago. My co-judge's eyes 'bout popped out of her skull. "No worries" I said. "That weim won't make it to the next series." And it didn't. That the dog blinked the first bird down made our job easy. I see the same guy occasionally on the SE circuit but he never ran under me again and I never saw that "silver" again. If another one came to the line under me I expect the results would be the same. "Thank you. Have a safe trip home."


I'm not a fan of the silver dogs by any means but I have personally seen and trained with 2 Silvers that have MH titles and the latest has qualified for and will be running in this years Master National. I've seen both dogs work their way up from JH to MH and they both earned their titles. There were times when they acted like they could retrieve a bird out of their crate when they were inside of the crate with the bird and then there were times when they stepped on all of their marks and lined their blinds. These dogs may have been the exception to the rule but I would wager to say that just because a silver dog comes to the line doesn't mean that dog can't do the work.


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Not true. The silvers carry dd....chocolates do not. The fact that AKC screwed up years ago and now can't change it does not change the fact that the dilute gene is not present in purebred Labs.


Yes the silvers carry dd and Chocolates have (no d or one d at the D Loci). However, the dilute gene is now widely present in what we call purebred labs. I do not believe that it occurred naturally as a mutation but that's just my opinion. I believe it was a result of cross breeding. Does not matter any more how it got there. Silver proponents want to argue that it was natural so it will be accepted. Fact is we know how to get it out, but are not doing so.

45 or so years ago (before I knew anybody that owned a registered Lab) we would call any dog that had bred back to a pure blood line for 7 generations a pure bred dog. I think we can be safe in saying that if a dog is AKC registered that it is in fact a purebred dog . Some breeding is just "more pure" than others. We know now that traits can be carried for much more than 7 generations. 

All Silvers will test Chocolate on a DNA color test. (EEbb or Eebb)
Base color Choc with additional dd (two copies of dilute gene at the D Loci)= Silver 
Base Color Choc with one d or no d (without two copies) = Chocolate.

This is why AKC does not currently deny registration....because they are genetically chocolate and I do believe (cant find the link anymore) this has had a law suite filed by a breeder and AKC settled. 
(The same dd (dilute gene) affects black and yellow too its just not as problematic as Silver is at this time.
A very nice looking chocolate can be a carrier without displaying the trait. You will not get rid of the dd unless you limit the breeding of all the affected AND the carriers ( Does this discussion sound familiar? i.e. EIC ) We do not disagree except that I do believe that AKC could fix this problem...but it will have to be based on DNA testing and not "subjective" inspection. Some obvious Silvers can be picked out visually while others are not so clearly determined. I have also seen people who are so eager to cash in on the Silver "marketing" that they are advertising dogs with light chocolate color as Silvers.
The Silver breeders are getting the jump on AKC by forming their own groups and registering dogs AS SILVERS. Guess what...in order to register your dog you have to prove they are "dd" by DNA test (PawPrint genetics does this test for them).
Since AKC is not a "democratic" organization it is not likely the they will ever do what we want. They obviously are not doing what the LRC wants. They will do what is best for AKC.
You may have misread my post.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

duckdawg27 said:


> The Silver breeders are getting the jump on AKC by forming their own groups and registering dogs AS SILVERS. Guess what...in order to register your dog you have to prove they are "dd" by DNA test (PawPrint genetics does this test for them).
> Since AKC is not a "democratic" organization it is not likely the they will ever do what we want. They obviously are not doing what the LRC wants. They will do what is best for AKC.
> You may have misread my post.


Ken,
Their own group? And registering them? Have they formed their own registry?, or convinced some other kennel club to accept them?, or ??? Can you expand please?
thanks,


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

lucas said:


> Ken,
> Their own group? And registering them? Have they formed their own registry?, or convinced some other kennel club to accept them?, or ??? Can you expand please?
> thanks,


As you can imagine they are all catering to the desire of Silver breeders to validate themselves and become legitimate. Here is the One that Paw print Genetics has partnered with. 
http://www.labradorcouncil.com/ 
This is also the one who says "We continue to hope and believe that the AKC will stand by us in the defense of our Purebred-Pedigreed Labrador Retrievers,"
There used to be one just called the Silver Labrador association but I can't find that one now.
Here is another
http://www.allcolorlabradorretrieverclub.com/registration.php 
The one that required DNA proof....I cannot find that one. It may or may not still be out there.
If AKC (the Gold Standard of Registration in this country) continues to support them then they wont need their own.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

duckdawg27 said:


> As you can imagine they are all catering to the desire of Silver breeders to validate themselves and become legitimate. Here is the One that Paw print Genetics has partnered with.
> http://www.labradorcouncil.com/


After a weekend-long 'education' by Labrador breeders at the LRC-Potomac show last April(?), PPG dropped the labradorcouncil partnership from its website. CPLR of course still includes PPG on their own website.


> Here is another
> http://www.allcolorlabradorretrieverclub.com/registration.php
> The one that required DNA proof....I cannot find that one. It may or may not still be out there.
> If AKC (the Gold Standard of Registration in this country) continues to support them then they wont need their own.


Well that group's 'events' calendar' is a year out of date. Hopefully they are having trouble getting any traction 

Thanks for the information!


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Yes please consider my "information" for entertainment purposes only. My independent "research" is based entirely on the accuracy and legitimacy of the internet. With AKC and HRC issuing HT titles to Silvers, I would say they are doing a dang good job of getting established in a way that wont wash off. Performance trumps everything else.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

AKC awards performance titles to mixed breed dogs all the time--you do not have to have a purebred dog to run Hunt Tests or obedience, agility, rally, etc. You need an ILP number to run HTs but I am sure there are people who do just that.

So awarding a HT title to a silver would be no different than awarding one to a dog with an ILP. I would not consider that a badge of legitimacy.

Meredith


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

mwk56 said:


> AKC awards performance titles to mixed breed dogs all the time--you do not have to have a purebred dog to run Hunt Tests or obedience, agility, rally, etc. You need an ILP number to run HTs but I am sure there are people who do just that.
> 
> So awarding a HT title to a silver would be no different than awarding one to a dog with an ILP. I would not consider that a badge of legitimacy.
> 
> Meredith


Except as registered dogs, their AKC Titles will show up on their AKC pedigrees which provides additional selling points and $$'s which then attracts more breeders and buyers,,,,


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Jim Danis said:


> just because a silver dog comes to the line doesn't mean that dog can't do the work.


Did I say that? No, I did not. But I will say that I've never seen a so-called "silver" that could pass a HT. There might be some out there that can do the work, but I've not seen one. And I sure as heck have not seen one at the line of a FT. 
Bottom line, as a judge, I can't arbitrarily toss a dog just because I think it does not belong there. I'll let it prove that it does not belong there.


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

mwk56 said:


> AKC awards performance titles to mixed breed dogs all the time--you do not have to have a purebred dog to run Hunt Tests or obedience, agility, rally, etc. You need an ILP number to run HTs but I am sure there are people who do just that.
> 
> So awarding a HT title to a silver would be no different than awarding one to a dog with an ILP. I would not consider that a badge of legitimacy.
> 
> Meredith


Of course it is different. An ILP can't breed.

HT titles are what they are...no more, no less. To a gullible puppy buyer, a big ole MH on the daddy of the Silver puppy they are about to buy, means the difference between a blank pedigree and a "Championship Pedigree". (Favorite sales pitch of the puppy peddlers).


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Good points--I had not thought of titles showing up on pedigrees.

Meredith


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Here's the real problem folks... The consumer for these dogs could give a **** how the gene got there or whether or not the lines are pure. They want the novelty of having something different. You won't convince them they aren't labs either. If it looks like a lab and barks like a lab... being a different color doesn't mean it isn't one (in their mind). I'm afraid to see what's going to happen given the popularity of doodles these days. I'd bet if you added up the labradoodles and goldendoodles the lab wouldn't be the number one registered dog any longer. They (doodles) are coming into me at least 4x or 5x to 1 vs. labs. Maybe that's because real labs are more easily trained but I don't think so. They (labs) are surely cheaper to buy. As the doodles get more commonplace I worry about what fad will catch on next. Between doodles and rescued pitbulls I may never see a pure bred lab (other than my own) ever again.

Troubling I tell ya. It's troubling.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Must be geographical Darrin. I have trained a small handful of 'doodle mutts', but most of my business is still the regular old fashioned colors black yellow and chocolate, purebred labrador retrievers.
Thank God- because I really do have a hard time keeping my opinions to myself these days.....


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

From LRC to AKC YESTERDAY:


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## fishdogs (Sep 14, 2009)

Glad to see that the field community has concerns about these dilute dogs. Be aware that the dilute "Improvement Movement" involves obtaining the pedigrees of top conformation and performance dogs to mix into their dilutes to make them more "lab-like." Then they tout the titled lineage to promote their "improved genetics" as if those who have "regular" highly titled labs have never done a stick of testing or line research. Dilute breeders have been known to use false names and "friends" to purchase stud service and puppies to use in their breeding programs. If you care about the breed, you will be VERY CAREFUL about breeders to whom you sell stud service, and research the kennels for ties to dilute breeders. Also be VERY CAREFUL about full registrations. These guys will scam any way they can to get what they want.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

suepuff said:


> From LRC to AKC YESTERDAY:
> 
> 
> View attachment 24053


I agree with the LRC and I'm glad they are doing what they can.


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## Michigal (Feb 16, 2014)

Response from the AKC to the LRC letter above:









AKC reply. (posted with the permission of the intended recipient, as required by AKC. Sharing, with proper attribution is allowed).


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

That's good news. Now if we can just get some traction towards not rewarding the fat little no leg having movable foot stool looking carpet decorations that couldn't our run most rocks and have absolutely NO interest in retrieving any damn thing that is currently winning in the show ring.

Form follows function regards

Bubba


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I just had somebody ask me yesterday what I thought of silver Labs. They wanted to get one and asked about training it. I gave them my opinion, and they said the breeder they talked to said they are exactly the same as black, yellow or chocolate...just a rare color. I sighed and said "Yeah....that's like comparing a Waterford crystal goblet with a red Solo cup. You can drink out of either....but that's where the resemblance ends."

They aren't going with a silver or other dilute. Glad they were willing to listen.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Bubba said:


> That's good news. Now if we can just get some traction towards not rewarding the fat little no leg having movable foot stool looking carpet decorations that couldn't our run most rocks and have absolutely NO interest in retrieving any damn thing that is currently winning in the show ring.
> 
> Form follows function regards
> 
> Bubba


You trying to say you couldn't see this bad boy nailing a 350-yd water blind?


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Michigal said:


> Response from the AKC to the LRC letter above:
> 
> View attachment 24065
> 
> ...


I'm unimpressed by the AKC's response, but it certainly could have been worse.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Michigal said:


> Response from the AKC to the LRC letter above:
> 
> View attachment 24065
> 
> ...


This response says, we are doing nothing... And don't want to know anything either.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> I just had somebody ask me yesterday what I thought of silver Labs. They wanted to get one and asked about training it. I gave them my opinion, and they said the breeder they talked to said they are exactly the same as black, yellow or chocolate...just a rare color. I sighed and said "Yeah....that's like comparing a Waterford crystal goblet with a red Solo cup. You can drink out of either....but that's where the resemblance ends."
> 
> They aren't going with a silver or other dilute. Glad they were willing to listen.



Love it. Will have to remember that one! 

Yes, imo, AKC just told LRC to go pee up a rope. Hurray for our "Club of clubs".


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

windycanyon said:


> Love it. Will have to remember that one!
> 
> Yes, imo, AKC just told LRC to go pee up a rope. Hurray for our "Club of clubs".


I wonder if breeders should not DNA test but advertise their pups as NO SILVER DILUTES!!


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> I sighed and said "Yeah....that's like comparing a Waterford crystal goblet with a red Solo cup. You can drink out of either....but that's where the resemblance ends.


Love the analogy ... Can I borrow that???


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

bamajeff said:


> You trying to say you couldn't see this bad boy nailing a 350-yd water blind?


You putting a time limit on this? ;-)


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

The Snows said:


> You putting a time limit on this? ;-)


Well, trials and hunt tests do usually last multiple days


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

The AKC doesn't seem to be supporting the Labrador Retriever Club at all. Are they worried about losing the revenue from silver breeder registrations?? The standard of each breed is supposed to be the sole determination of the AKC recognized parent club--NOT the AKC itself. 

What has happened to the AKC?? Is it time for an absolutely brand new registration organization?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The Snows said:


> Love the analogy ... Can I borrow that???


Of course.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Good Dogs said:


> Had a fellow bring a "silver" to the line at a junior HT few years ago. My co-judge's eyes 'bout popped out of her skull. "No worries" I said. "That weim won't make it to the next series." And it didn't. That the dog blinked the first bird down made our job easy. I see the same guy occasionally on the SE circuit but he never ran under me again and I never saw that "silver" again. If another one came to the line under me I expect the results would be the same. "Thank you. Have a safe trip home."


Well, never mind. I've just been reminded that weimaraners are eligible to run AKC HTs. (This came about after my story above occurred.) So that gray dog with the yellow eyes, high-set ears, thin single-layer coat and pointy tail is welcome to the line. But it ain't a lab. And it's not eligible to run FTs. Not yet anyway.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Good Dogs said:


> Well, never mind. I've just been reminded that weimaraners are eligible to run AKC HTs. (This came about after my story above occurred.) So that gray dog with the yellow eyes, high-set ears, thin single-layer coat and pointy tail is welcome to the line. But it ain't a lab. And it's not eligible to run FTs. Not yet anyway.


LOL. It is hard to keep up these days as it seems they add a breed or two every few months--I may show up with a Spinone one of these days. I wonder what the Weim folks think when they see a silver lab? Probably the same thing I do: "that is an ugly Weim".


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

DoubleHaul said:


> LOL. It is hard to keep up these days as it seems they add a breed or two every few months--I may show up with a Spinone one of these days. I wonder what the Weim folks think when they see a silver lab? Probably the same thing I do: "that is an ugly Weim".


At least one Weim breeder who I know and co-own a Lab with said years ago that even the Weim folks saw "silvers" as a mix of the 2 breeds. I said good, since Weim rescue has far fewer dogs to deal w/ than Lab rescue, then maybe THEY can deal w the silver ones. They didn't want them either!


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

The Representative of The American Kennel Club did tell the LRC what they needed to do in an indirect way. The LRC needs to officially revise their Breed Standard to address the issue. Then the AKC can act. The current breed standard doesn't really address the issue in a manner that the AKC can enforce.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> The Representative of The American Kennel Club did tell the LRC what they needed to do in an indirect way. The LRC needs to officially revise their Breed Standard to address the issue. Then the AKC can act. The current breed standard doesn't really address the issue in a manner that the AKC can enforce.


Silver isn't Chocolate. If Silver Labs were chocolate Labs they'd be advertising Chocolate Labs instead of "Silver" Labs wouldn't they? Here's two sentences from the standard. The standard seems pretty clear to me. 

*Color: 
*The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. *Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification*.


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

Michigal said:


> Response from the AKC to the LRC letter above:
> 
> View attachment 24065
> 
> ...


Not trying to take away from the awesome letter sent by the LRC (Thanks Fred!), but I'm not sure this response letter should be posted on the forum as there is a BIG "CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE" that is specifically prohibiting the distribution of this letter..........


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Swack said:


> Silver isn't Chocolate. If Silver Labs were chocolate Labs they'd be advertising Chocolate Labs instead of "Silver" Labs wouldn't they? Here's two sentences from the standard. The standard seems pretty clear to me.
> 
> *Color:
> *The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. *Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification*.


And there's the problem. AKC screwed up and declared they are chocolate, and now we're stuck because of AKCs error.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Jamee Strange said:


> Not trying to take away from the awesome letter sent by the LRC (Thanks Fred!), but I'm not sure this response letter should be posted on the forum as there is a BIG "CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE" that is specifically prohibiting the distribution of this letter..........


Hi Jamee,
The letter was posted, with permission from the recipient, on LRC's FB page. Once it showed up there, which is a page visible to the public, it was 'open source.' If AKC cannot stand behind its words, it should not put them on paper.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

bamajeff said:


> You trying to say you couldn't see this bad boy nailing a 350-yd water blind?


Well, he does look pretty buoyant!! ;-)


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## Michigal (Feb 16, 2014)

Jamee Strange said:


> Not trying to take away from the awesome letter sent by the LRC (Thanks Fred!), but I'm not sure this response letter should be posted on the forum as there is a BIG "CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE" that is specifically prohibiting the distribution of this letter..........


Per the Labrador Retriever Club post of this on facebook:

 (posted with the permission of the intended recipient, as required by AKC. Sharing, with proper attribution is allowed).
https://www.facebook.com/LabradorRetrieverClubInc/photos_stream


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

windycanyon said:


> Here you go---- http://www.jblabradors.com/
> Dog is Rufus who was entered and dq'd today. http://www.jblabradors.com/Rufus
> Not only is he clearly NOT chocolate, but he is apparently undersized as well acc'g to my sources there at the show.
> It appears to me that not only should the judges take off the rose colored glasses if color is in question, but perhaps they need to pull out the wicket more often as well. The pigment should have given this dog away to any Lab judge.


1. They need to hire a photographer. Their photos show their dogs at their worst.
2. It's a shame that Rufus is silver. If he were just a silhouette, I think we would think he was pretty nice. Nice expressive head and eyes too. Best looking dog there (other than color) as far as I am concerned.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Silver (and charcoal) facts I never knew: http://www.lankaslabs.com/delivery-and-shipping-silver-charcoal-labs/


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Vicky Trainor said:


> At the Piedmont Kennel Club's AKC All Breed show (Event No: 2015136301), the Labrador Retrievers were judged by Mrs. Judy Webb.
> 
> In the 12 - 18 month dog class, there were 2 entries. One was clearly a Chocolate Labrador Retriever and the other was a silver looking Labrador Retriever. The judge placed the dogs as follows: The clearly Chocolate Labrador Retriever was awarded First Place; the silver looking Labrador Retriever was given a third place ribbon.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing that ! well done


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Silver (and charcoal) facts I never knew: http://www.lankaslabs.com/delivery-and-shipping-silver-charcoal-labs/


Interesting reading to find out that those of us who recognize that black, yellow and chocolate are the colour of labs are part of the "flat earth society"! And to top that off ... They up charge for silver! Imagine that!!!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Silver (and charcoal) facts I never knew: http://www.lankaslabs.com/delivery-and-shipping-silver-charcoal-labs/


Lots of bogus spin there, and all the crap from Culo cut and pasted. Not to mention no health clearances.

As an aside, Crist (original owner of the whole Culo mess) is laughing at all the silver suckers as well, via his kennel name, Crist Culo. The translation is "Crist's Butthole", so all the dogs that say Culo are his way of saying the joke's on the buyer, kinda like "kiss my *ss". At least that's the way I read it.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Silver (and charcoal) facts I never knew: http://www.lankaslabs.com/delivery-and-shipping-silver-charcoal-labs/


Thanks for the "informative" link. That may be the most twisted history on the origins of the Labrador retriever I've ever read and an even more twisted explanation of the "long and vaunted history" of the "silver" Lab.

As P.T. Barnum famously said: "There's a sucker born every minute!"

Swack


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

It ain't over till its over...........
http://www.labradorcouncil.com/


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Silver (and charcoal) facts I never knew: http://www.lankaslabs.com/delivery-and-shipping-silver-charcoal-labs/


I still have one of the blue registration slips from when they started. They never listed Silver which is their first line on that link, they listed "other" by accident and that's what was registered and why AKC came out to check what the other was and and the rep said put it under chocolate.


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## Mike Sale (Feb 1, 2011)

OMG , This is such a Joke ! Not one of his supposed ancestors in 5 generations and Bitch line is unknown after 2 . And this is a sought after stud ?

Lankas Labs Smoke-n Simba “Simba” is a 85lb silver male: His father is Silver Stud BC Silver Bullet who lineage is wold renowned: Hall of Fame FC-AFC Paha Sapa Chief II, Dual CH Shamrock Acres Super Drive, English Champion Sandylands Mark, Great Britian Champion Sandylands Tweet of Blaircourt, Austrian Champion Sandylands Tan, Mexico Amature Champion Gunfield’s Super Charger CD WC, English Amature Champion Follytower Merrybrook Black Stormer in his bloodlines. Simba has produced more silver and charcoal pointing lab retrievers than any other silver or charcoal stud dog in the world.

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=45742


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

This is what we have to look forward to is marketing on 15 or more generations back. This is a known dog. http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=4844. He or for sure his father were QAA. (Woodstock Brown Bear). It looks like Dean Crist (Culo) bred a bitch to him. And as far as anybody being jealous of an obedience dog, NOT, but that appears to be the spin.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

fishdogs said:


> Glad to see that the field community has concerns about these dilute dogs. Be aware that the dilute "Improvement Movement" involves obtaining the pedigrees of top conformation and performance dogs to mix into their dilutes to make them more "lab-like." Then they tout the titled lineage to promote their "improved genetics" as if those who have "regular" highly titled labs have never done a stick of testing or line research. Dilute breeders have been known to use false names and "friends" to purchase stud service and puppies to use in their breeding programs. If you care about the breed, you will be VERY CAREFUL about breeders to whom you sell stud service, and research the kennels for ties to dilute breeders. Also be VERY CAREFUL about full registrations. These guys will scam any way they can to get what they want.


(The dilute breeders have currently bred and have dogs sired by top both field trial and show dogs and in many instances the stud owner has NO IDEA" Many stud owners are now requesting that the bitches to be bred to their dogs have been dilute tested and bitch owners are starting to require that the stud be tested and clear) 

As Fishdog said - be vigilant on who you breed to "both stud owners and bitch owners" to keep them out of the hands of dilute breeders and puppy mills - unless you know the person or they have good references be careful. Also, many dilute breeders are obtaining puppies and breedings under false pretenses - even resorting to having friends and relatives doing the breeding or buying the puppies for them. I have personally seen several dogs that are dilute carriers sired by top studs and some of those stud owners are very unhappy about it now that they know. Both field trial studs and tops show studs and the mother of these dogs in general have crap for a pedigree were dilute or carrying the dilute gene and they really were not worth breeding at all.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Just one big reason to sell pups on limited registration unless the buyer is known.


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

Dean Crist has gotten out of the dilute labs - sold them all off to a kennel out east from what I saw. I am seeing a lot of dilutes selling for less than a good black, yellow, or chocolate now. Could be Dean is getting out while the market is still up and could also be the pressure the dilute dogs are under at this time - hard to say.


The Snows said:


> Interesting reading to find out that those of us who recognize that black, yellow and chocolate are the colour of labs are part of the "flat earth society"! And to top that off ... They up charge for silver! Imagine that!!!


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## SPEED (Jul 12, 2013)

Interesting - I just went to Culo Kennel and they had a redirect to another kennel (I am assuming the kennel that bought his dogs) and that kennel has a post
"*SILVER SPOON KENNEL IS NOW CLOSED FOR BUSINESS*"
I have been seeing the dilute market rapidly declining and they are now getting less for the dilutes than you would for a well bred Labrador.


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## Handler in Training (Jun 18, 2013)

I was just doing my evening scroll through Facebook and came upon a litter announcement in "retrievers for sale" of an all silver litter that has an MH sire. Holy crap. Is this real? And how come we aren't freaking out about that? Apparently the dog got it's junior, senior, and master title and ran at the master national. Someone please tell me this is not true...AKC. Please take a stance...


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

A lot of us ARE freaking out Eric-. It stands in the LRC's hands right now- unless they change the written standard to specifically forbid silver , akc will continue to collect the bucks for registration and it will not cease.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Billie said:


> A lot of us ARE freaking out Eric-. It stands in the LRC's hands right now- unless they change the written standard to specifically forbid silver , akc will continue to collect the bucks for registration and it will not cease.


They need to word it that "silver" doesn't mean "chocolate-silver"  close the loophole that has been created, but I don't think we will be able close Pandora's box.....it's a little too late.


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## Handler in Training (Jun 18, 2013)

I hear ya Billie. Starting to wonder if my Master title is really worth anything. They are literally "diluting" the title.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Devil's advocate here.


I can't imagine there aren't just as many (and probably more) irresponsible 'yellow/black/choc' lab breeders as there are 'silver' lab breeders. Irresponsible is irresponsible no matter what color of pup you are trying to produce. Wasn't the chocolate color poo pooed at one time? 

Also - what is a 'crap' pedigree to one person may very well be a fabulous pedigree to another. Everyone has different ideas of what they like. I think it is cool that we, as humans, have been able to develop so many different breeds of dogs, all from one common denominator... the wolf.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Tobias said:


> Devil's advocate here.
> 
> 
> I can't imagine there aren't just as many (and probably more) irresponsible 'yellow/black/choc' lab breeders as there are 'silver' lab breeders. Irresponsible is irresponsible no matter what color of pup you are trying to produce. Wasn't the chocolate color poo pooed at one time?
> ...


Crap pedigrees in the silver case, stemmed from generation of generation of inbreeding to dogs who produced the color-which stemmed from introducing a foreign breed AFTER THE STUD BOOKS CLOSED.... Also, your point in different breeds is a good one. But if someone wants a silver coated dog- buy one that it is natural in- like a weimeraner. Not a watered down version of either breed that was crossed. Breeds were created and standard descriptions written to describe those breeds. If silver was meant to be in the Labrador Retriever, the writers of the Standard would have said so-instead it says=- any deviation from above colors (black, yellow or chocolate) is a disqualification. I could have a green labrador, or a tiger striped labrador and register it on the papers as black or yellow- akc wouldnt know- Doesnt make it OK to do so-


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The difference is that the gene that causes the gray color is not present in the Labrador. The dogs were crossbred to get that color. 

If they like that color, fine....but let them start their own breed rather than polluting the Labrador breed and trying to pass them off as purebreds. 

If it's OK to have colors that are not acceptable or allowed in the breed, then maybe we should add some Springer, or Brittany to the mix. We could have rare spotted Labradors.  The Springers could be registered under Chocolate or black, and the Britts could be registered under yellow or chocolate.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> The difference is that the gene that causes the gray color is not present in the Labrador. The dogs were crossbred to get that color.
> 
> If they like that color, fine....but let them start their own breed rather than polluting the Labrador breed and trying to pass them off as purebreds.
> 
> If it's OK to have colors that are not acceptable or allowed in the breed, then maybe we should add some Springer, or Brittany to the mix. We could have rare spotted Labradors.  The Springers could be registered under Chocolate or black, and the Britts could be registered under yellow or chocolate.


Sharon, I think we posted the same time. Basically , saying the same thing....


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Were chessie not the result of cross breeding?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Tobias said:


> Were chessie not the result of cross breeding?


All breeds start that way....Chessies, Labs, Goldens....every breed of dog. But once the stud book is closed to outside blood, no more crossbreeding is permitted. The Labrador stud book closed many decades before any of these dilute colors showed up.


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

Got this second hand so take for what it is worth, just a rumor, The judge who awarded this third place was suspended and fined 500 dollars by the AKC. The rest of the story I got was, The judge was told as all show judges to do every thing they can to help bring new people in to the sport. She talked with the owner after the show and explained to them the standards. They were mislead by the breeder, (new to the sport) and told that it was a show quality lab. They were appreciative of the education and thanked her for helping them on the right path so to speak. She was trying to help keep someone in the sport and educate them. Whether the method was right, it seems a little harsh of a punishment from and organization that registered the dog. From the story being told at the show today I don't think the owners, are trying to make a buck off a fad dog, at least I hope not. And now that they know, hopefully when they purchased their next pup, they will be a little more educated. A losing situation for every one but the breeder who took advantage of some unsuspecting person. I'm sure they will use this third to promote their dogs without disclosing the full story. Just the parts that make them look good. Creative editing I think they call it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If the owner was educated by the judge, then why did they show again later that weekend to another judge (who, by the way, did disqualify them)? Also, the owner/handler is a breeder of silver Labs and is certainly not new to dogs or the sport, so I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing and hoped they'd get lucky. The judge is still judging as well.

No point in spreading rumors. Pretty easy to verify this stuff.


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

Yes it is, thanks for doing that. But if you had read, and I guess I should have made it a little clearer, this is the story they are telling at the show in NE. I just find it interesting that the show side of it are still talking about it also. One of them called me because we had talked about it a long time ago when it happened. I gave full discloser that it was second hand and not to be taken as gospel. So as for spreading rumors I guess I could not have made it any plainer that it was an unverified story, so I wasn't spreading rumors. Just stating what they were talking about at the show in NE. Maybe that can be verified at snoops also. Oh I am anti silver so I don't have a hidden agenda, just found it interesting. Have at it.


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

From the AKC Gazette...

At its September 2015 meeting, the American Kennel Club Board of Directors suspended the judging privileges of Ms. Judy Webb effective immediately for a period of one month and imposed a $100 fine for disregard of AKC Judging Procedures and Guidelines and failure to disqualify an entry with a breed standard disqualification. 

​It's a step in the right direction.


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