# Hip and Eye Clearances Required on all retriever pups



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

For any and all labrador puppy litters, please see the announcement at the top of the labrador puppy classifieds. I've been made aware of a little glitch that needed to be fixed. This is the easiest, most effective, short term fix.

Always available by PM.....Chris

Thanks to EACH of you for making RTF what it is...


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

Bravo BRAVO!! I wish the AKC would only give limited reg. until clearances were gotten.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

smillerdvm said:


> Bravo BRAVO!! I wish the AKC would only give limited reg. until clearances were gotten.


Amen!


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

*Good idea*

I would not want the AKC, UKC, gov't, etc making these complicated decisions by simple-minded bureaucratic edicts. But it's a step forward to include this in a public ad.

Thanks, Chris.


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Good idea*



Keith Stroyan said:


> I would not want the AKC, UKC, gov't, etc making these complicated decisions by simple-minded bureaucratic edicts. But it's a step forward to include this in a public ad.
> 
> Thanks, Chris.


Agree on both points!!


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

This change is having other effects as well. After contacting some of the posters, I'm getting notifications that some of the litters have been sold and can be deleted!! 

Now if we could just find a way to get everyone to delete their ads (puppies, equipment, etc) once they are sold, we'd really be making progress. 

Vicky


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Why just Labs? CHD, PRA & PRD affect other breeds as well.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Why just Labs? CHD, PRA & PRD affect other breeds as well.


Hey Bob,

Here are my answers.

I've been swamped, as most all of us have been, with job, family, hobby etc. I wanted to do something in a fairly quick timeframe, that addressed the most pressing need. I chose the labrador litters because unlike goldens and chessies, there are many litters of labradors posted daily. There are not nearly as many golden and chessie litters posted on the RTF classifieds. As a result, it makes it easier for the interested market to sort through who's offering what.

I chose to implement the policy where it would have the most impact, the quickest. I personally believe that we should have eye and hip clearnances as a requirement for all registered retriever breeds. If the golden folks, chessie folks, etc. come to me and help me understand that this is the standard for their breeds, we'll probably adopt a similar policy for them.

The goal is not to fund the "cottage industry" that surely some will feel exists with one of the health clearance registries. The goal is to have breeders demonstrate that they are taking precautions to produce and sell puppies with health and function in mind. I'm told that there are litters currently on RTF (labradors) where the breeders have made no attempt to determine physical soundness of the parents' hips or eyes.

Just like the change of the boards from "bumpable/repliable" to not; this is the easiest and clearest way to get away from those abusing the system.

I've gotten PM requests from a few to require health clerances on Goldens...now Bob appears to state that we need it for the chessies too. (I had intended to call my buddy Ken Bora to discuss this on the Chessie front...for some reason, I was of the impression that the Chessie crew may do things a bit differently...probably a false impression.)

Chris


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> ...for some reason, I was of the impression that the Chessie crew may do things a bit differently...probably a false impression.)
> 
> Chris


Nope, My "Peaks" come from the same folks in Quebec, Hips are eyes are a big deal. Any they stand behind them. My first one was, diagnosed at the early age of 10 months by her bunny hop gait, showed them the X-ray, had her spayed and "BAM!" I had pick of the litter from any litter I wanted of theirs. That pup ended having an excellent rating, and I thought that was very cool. So yes Chris, Hips and eyes are very closely watched by the responsible Chessie breeders I know. The dog can have all the talent in the world but if it has bad hips, snip, snip.
Ken Bora


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Bravo!

Question: when are you going to include CNM status as well?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

CNBarnes said:


> Bravo!
> 
> Question: when are you going to include CNM status as well?


I don't have a timeline on that and I don't have an answer as to "when" or even an answer "if" that will be required.

For CNM, please ask the breeder(s) of litters that interest you, the specific CNM questions that you may have.

I'm doing a little "research" on the side about CNM. It sure seems like a great idea, but I have toget some questions answered myself before I advocate it being a firm requirement.

Let's face it, from no health clearance requirement, to requiring hips and eyes is a very good start!

Chris


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

There goes my puppy mill idea, now I have no place to advertise.


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Let's face it, from no health clearance requirement, to requiring hips and eyes is a very good start!
> 
> Chris


"OFA" does not include elbows?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

hhlabradors said:


> Chris Atkinson said:
> 
> 
> > Let's face it, from no health clearance requirement, to requiring hips and eyes is a very good start!
> ...


Let's face it...from no health clearance requirement, to requiring hips and eyes is a very good start! :wink:

Rather than showing crying icons about what's not been done, how about a little "reinforcement of the positive behavior" for what has been done?

8)


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Rather than showing crying icons about what's not been done, how about a little "reinforcement of the positive behavior" for what has been done?
> 
> 8)


Like Don Rickles used to always say, "It's a tough room" :shock: But good job Chris, It seems the world weighs on your shoulders. We have not seen any Bus and Boys photos in a bit. Stop trying to single handedly fix all that is wrong with the retriever world show us some cute puppy and kid action, OK Dude? 8) 
Ken Bora


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## goldeneye (Apr 7, 2004)

ATTA BOY Chris


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> hhlabradors said:
> 
> 
> > Chris Atkinson said:
> ...


Because I believe that elbow dysplasia is more crippling than hip dysplasia, and that elbow clearances are part of the bare minimum package. This (the ability to post litters and sell pups thru RTF) *could* be a strong enough motivation for *some* people to do elbows who otherwise wouldn't.

Hips and eyes don't impress me much. Anyone who doesn't do those is way outside the norm expected for a "responsible" breeder, and anyone who buys a pup from a breeder who doesn't do those gets what s/he deserves. I feel leaving out elbows is missing a golden opportunity to really do some good with this. 

Would my positive reinforcement really have any effect on your behavior? Somehow, I doubt it. :wink: No point wasting either of our time. :roll:


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Elanor,

I've gotten several PM's from folks with respectfully delivered suggestions and/or requests. I would not say that your approach is a waste of time. I will say that the others' approaches have been more effective and motivating for me personally.

Please and Thank You regards,

Chris


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## Hidden Valley (Aug 4, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> The goal is to have breeders demonstrate that they are taking precautions to produce and sell puppies with health and function in mind. I'm told that there are litters currently on RTF (labradors) where the breeders have made no attempt to determine physical soundness of the parents' hips or eyes.
> 
> 
> Chris


YES, dogs need to have thier eyes cleared. But ONE # does NOT say the eyes are good 5 years later. There are breeders that do NOT send in the paperwork, but DO test their dogs EVERY year, and supply copies of all the clearance papers to puppy buyers. I have to ask what is better, 1 # or 5-6 sheets showing the dog tested clear every year?
just wondering aloud.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

*ADS*

Thanks chris    I have purchased six puppies in the last two years,that RTF was the advertizer.Now it will be even easier to weed out the ones that fall short of at least that standard.We all want the best quality we can find in a retriever,and are willing to pay the price for it.If we buy one , the minimum will be CERF,OFA or Penn Hip,CNM Clear by parentage or tested.Yes, elbows would be nice too.Even with that standard one can end up in heartbreak if the cleared parents are carriers....but the elemant of risk is lower.


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## ducksoup (Oct 3, 2005)

Chris,
As usual RTF sets the standard just a little bit higher -- great to see


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Elanor,
> 
> I've gotten several PM's from folks with respectfully delivered suggestions and/or requests. I would not say that your approach is a waste of time. I will say that the others' approaches have been more effective and motivating for me personally.
> 
> ...



Chris,

I'm not asking for a favor. I'm not asking you to do anything that benefits me personally. I'm expressing surprise and disappointment that an action that is supposed to promote more responsible breeding of dogs doesn't include a very important point: one that could be included with no additional effort or cost.

I appreciate you having this board in the first place and have thanked you for it. If I asked you to look up a pedigree or answer a training question, or anything else that would be a favor *to me*, I'd "use my magic words." To have to say please or thank you or provide positive motivation in order to participate in this discussion? Well, it's not a game I feel a need to play. Makes no difference to me, as I know what clearances I look for regardless of the litter posting policy.

I think you've spent too much time with the little kids regards,
Eleanor


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Having had a "well" bred lab with bad elbows I am biased towards including them. Yes, all the clearances get expensive. But, this forum is for performance dogs and the expectations are that pups bought through here will be physically sound to do what we want. I don't know that elbow clearances would have done anyhting for my pup.

As far as other breeds clearances are just as important. Chris isn't going to be as aware of the particulars per breed. Maybe several breeders/owners of each breed could put together a list for Chris.

Having bred all of one litter of chessies I would like to see OFA/PennHip for hips, CERF and PRA as a beging. Too bad there isn't a dna test for temperment!!

Buyers also need to know that these tests help improve the odds of a physically sound puppy. Just as titles help improve the odds of a good working dog. It sounds like Ken has a good relationship with a great breeder. The dog world could use more like them.

Tom


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

hhlabradors said:


> Chris Atkinson said:
> 
> 
> > Elanor,
> ...


Thank you Eleanor,

I'm not sure if you mean that I have to spend too much time with people using the board like little kids, or that I spend too much time with my own children. If it's the latter, sadly it's quite the opposite. 

Having been in sales and marketing for all of my professional career, I've found that motivating people and team-mates is best accomplished by treating all with consideration. 

To all, thanks for your comments around the new classified requirements.

Chris


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## LH (Jan 24, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Bob Gutermuth said:
> 
> 
> > Why just Labs? CHD, PRA & PRD affect other breeds as well.
> ...




Hi Chris!

From what I have seen through my searches on Offa most FT Chesapeake breeders do all health screens on their dogs. Unfortunately for some reason they do most often not advertise their litters on RTF. Do not know why. The consequence of this is that people looking for optimal Chessies may not find them.

If You want to You could in some way insert these 2 Chessie specific forums where many ads are placed and where links to breeders can be found:


http://www.chesapeakesunlimited.com/

http://www.teamchesapeake.com/


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

> Because I believe that elbow dysplasia is more crippling than hip dysplasia, and that elbow clearances are part of the bare minimum package.


I have to agree with the importance of elbow clearance ..these days. Since it is an issue with Goldens...and I hear with Labs, too. 

Having hips done..why not do the elbows at the same time...

Just my thoughts..

Judy


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

duckpopper said:


> Chris Atkinson said:
> 
> 
> > The goal is to have breeders demonstrate that they are taking precautions to produce and sell puppies with health and function in mind. I'm told that there are litters currently on RTF (labradors) where the breeders have made no attempt to determine physical soundness of the parents' hips or eyes.
> ...


If you read the original post and the Sticky on the Classifieds-Lab puppies forum, you'll see that a CERF # was not mentioned in the announcement. Chris mandated that "clearances" must be posted. 

In response to PMs/email I have received from posters in the Classifieds-Lab puppies forum, I have explained that many breeders/owners do not send in the OFA form completed by the board certified opthamologist for a CERF #. As long as the breeder has that completed form, the "requirement" has been met. 

On another note, Chris is doing a great thing by giving us all this wonderful website to utilize. Let's not nit-pick him to death by asking for links to other websites, more requirements, etc., etc. He's not the "Retriever Police". Potential buyers need to do their OWN homework before purchasing a pup/dog/item.

Vicky


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Vicky Traynor wrote:



> On another note, Chris is doing a great thing by giving us all this wonderful website to utilize. Let's not nit-pick him to death by asking for links to other websites, more requirements, etc., etc. He's not the "Retriever Police


I have noticed that Chris is no longer signing off as "The Janitor". C'mon Chris, I'm sure there's some floor that needs mopping somewhere! :wink: 

M


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

> On another note, Chris is doing a great thing by giving us all this wonderful website to utilize. Let's not nit-pick him to death by asking for links to other websites, more requirements, etc., etc. He's not the "Retriever Police". Potential buyers need to do their OWN homework before purchasing a pup/dog/item.


Absolutely...love the website.. However,  ..since the subject has come up..some good discussion might raise some heads among breeders to do just a little more  for the welfare of the dogs and future generations..

...and that buyers of pups be aware of elbows among all the other health concerns. ..to be able to make the best possible decision given the information to be had on a particular pup/litter. Knowledge certainly is not a bad thing.. and if the news is not the best and a person buys pup anyway..at least they have the information and be able to deal with it for the pup's best interest. If a particular clearance (like elbows) is not there..perhaps the pup owner will go ahead and do clearance(s) for his pup as it grows up.. let breeder know results, too, in their best interest...and thus improving knowledge for all. 

.. this discussion might encourage more clearances to be shown on RTF puppy ads..even though not "required" by the RTF. ..but that breeders are taking the extra step on their own  ...elbows, as an example..it seems..are becoming a real issue. 

Good that the RTF is available to discuss this important subject..


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Chris thanks for trying to improve the quality of the board. You effort is appreciated. 
I think a good reason for not requiring elbows is that not enough people test for it. In the history of the evaluations only 37,700 labs have had x-ray submitted (about 300,000 registered with AKC each year). With GR the number is 1673, yes only one thousand-six hundred-seventy three Golden’s have ever had elbows evaluated. CBR’s? Even worse, a grand total of 40 CBR’s have ever been evaluated for elbow dysplasia! The percentage of both labs and GR’s that are affected with ED (not erectile dysfunction) is about 11%. I am not saying that it is not a good or necessary evaluation, just that it is not commonly done and the numbers prove it. A total of 37,700 elbow evaluations in labs since 1974! 33 years of evaluations and 37,700 labs! About 1,100 evaluations a year. Not much and yet the affected population remains around 12%. My point is some people just do not feel it is necessary and others do. You should always shop for the dog that feels best for you. If you feel that the dog you want should have CMN, eyes, hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid, and patellar luxation evaluation then that is what you should look for. I think Chris just wanted to set some standard to keep questionable litters form being posted here. I think what he has required meets the minimum standard and is a great idea. It is like shopping for a car. Front airbags are required, if you want side airbags you have to shop for them. Same here. If you are happy with eyes and hips then there are more litters to chose from. If not you will have less litters but I am sure you will be able to find them. I think the idea was to set a minimum standard, NOT to establish THE END ALL BEAT ALL breeding requirements.


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## LH (Jan 24, 2006)

badbullgator said:


> Chris thanks for trying to improve the quality of the board. You effort is appreciated.
> I think a good reason for not requiring elbows is that not enough people test for it. In the history of the evaluations only 37,700 labs have had x-ray submitted (about 300,000 registered with AKC each year). With GR the number is 1673, yes only one thousand-six hundred-seventy three Golden’s have ever had elbows evaluated. CBR’s? Even worse, a grand total of 40 CBR’s have ever been evaluated for elbow dysplasia! The percentage of both labs and GR’s that are affected with ED (not erectile dysfunction) is about 11%. I am not saying that it is not a good or necessary evaluation, just that it is not commonly done and the numbers prove it. A total of 37,700 elbow evaluations in labs since 1974! 33 years of evaluations and 37,700 labs! About 1,100 evaluations a year. Not much and yet the affected population remains around 12%. My point is some people just do not feel it is necessary and others do. You should always shop for the dog that feels best for you. If you feel that the dog you want should have CMN, eyes, hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid, and patellar luxation evaluation then that is what you should look for. I think Chris just wanted to set some standard to keep questionable litters form being posted here. I think what he has required meets the minimum standard and is a great idea. It is like shopping for a car. Front airbags are required, if you want side airbags you have to shop for them. Same here. If you are happy with eyes and hips then there are more litters to chose from. If not you will have less litters but I am sure you will be able to find them. I think the idea was to set a minimum standard, NOT to establish THE END ALL BEAT ALL breeding requirements.



Question about:

"About 1,100 evaluations a year. Not much and yet the affected population remains around 12%."

May I ask, are the 12% affected a percentage out of the 1100 evaluations a year? Or of the total population?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

overall, and degree of ED is not indicated either

I would also add that with such a small number of dogs being evaluated, 12% does not represent the average for the breed. This would be too small a sample group for the 12% figure to be relevant. Remember there are close to 300.000 labs registered each year with the AKC and that does not include those that go unregistered. If I remember correctly this is about the 10th year that 250,000 or more labs have been registered. In just the last ten year this is 2.5 million dogs registered. The number of dogs evaluated for ED in the past 30 years only represents > 2% of the total registered in one third of the time that evaluations have been done. That said, the actual incidence of ED could be higher or lower, but with such low numbers of evaluations there is no way of knowing.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Let's face it, from no health clearance requirement, to requiring hips and eyes is a very good start!


Oh, I absolutely concur.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Let's face it, from no health clearance requirement, to requiring hips and eyes is a very good start!
> 
> Chris




Actually you are going above and beyond Chris….you’re a good egg. :wink:


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

It almost is beginning to appear that people expect to be protected from themselves and it is the advertising medium's responsibility to do it. Bottom line is people HAVE to do their own homework. I personally would not buy without elbow clearances on the parents, but some of the older, deceased studs did not have them as it was very unusual for it to be done just 5-10 yrs ago. The stud ad in RFTN for Cosmo does not mention any elbow #, I do not know if he had his elbows checked or not, but it is not in his stud ad. If I had a litter from by him, I would think that litter should be able to be advertised. It is up to the buyer to become educated, and it helps if responsible breeders help educate. But I think we have to be careful about setting rules in stone. 

Because it is snowing and there is nothing happening I went through the Nov RFTN ads. I may have, missed a few but here is what I found.
In 25 stud ads, 16 stated a hip clearance, 14 stated an eye clearance and 4 stated an elbow clearance.

In 10 puppy ads, 6 state at least one parent had hip clearance, 4 stated eye clearances in at least one parent, and 2 stated elbow clearances in at least one parent.

So the way I see it, if the flagship publication of this sport does not force clearances on the studs/puppies, then I do not see any reason to expect them anywhere else. The fact that RTF demands two clearances appears to be a landmark and a step forward to AT LEAST educating people looking here that there are questions to ask.

Hats off to Chris and Vickie, I have NO idea where you find time to do this, but I do not say it enough---THANK YOU


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## labdoc (Apr 18, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> overall, and degree of ED is not indicated either


ED - erectile dysfunction??? :lol: :wink:


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This "policy" would have meant that no River Oaks Corky or Super Powder pups could be advertised. And the lack of CERF doesn't immediately imply genetic retinal disease for 2 reasons, (1) some ophthalmologists call any retinal lesion retinal dysplasia and (2) I have personally been doing retinal exams on my own dogs for over 25 years, on the rare instance that one has had a suspicious area they have gone to the ophthalmologist but rarely have I submitted them for CERF, and (3) as has been pointed out a single CERF done at one year of age could miss both retinal dysplasia and PRA......just one guy's opinion 8)


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

EdA said:


> This "policy" would have meant that no River Oaks Corky or Super Powder pups could be advertised.


IF SOMEONE HAS A LITTER BY EITHER OF THESE TWO DOGS, PLEASE PM ME!!!!since you can't advertise them publically.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

achiro said:


> IF SOMEONE HAS A LITTER BY EITHER OF THESE TWO DOGS, PLEASE PM ME!!!!since you can't advertise them publically.


Russ, Surely you wouldn't buy a puppy from a stud without an OFA and PennHip certification would you? :shock: 

When a Stupidity Clearance is developed, I'd be interested in that :wink:


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

achiro said:


> publically


man I publicly butchered that!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

EdA said:


> achiro said:
> 
> 
> > IF SOMEONE HAS A LITTER BY EITHER OF THESE TWO DOGS, PLEASE PM ME!!!!since you can't advertise them publically.
> ...



Good one Russ....I would buy a pup out of either of those dogs in a heart beat without any OFA/PennHip...just as long as I got the registration.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

EdA said:


> When a Stupidity Clearance is developed, I'd be interested in that :wink:


I'd have a hard time requiring my dogs pass a test that I couldn't.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

duckpopper said:


> Chris Atkinson said:
> 
> 
> > The goal is to have breeders demonstrate that they are taking precautions to produce and sell puppies with health and function in mind. I'm told that there are litters currently on RTF (labradors) where the breeders have made no attempt to determine physical soundness of the parents' hips or eyes.
> ...


It is suggested that Golden Retrievers being bred..should have eyes cleared every year. Just for the very reason that you say...many issues do not show up until dogs are several years old. 

Then most breeders...contracts...require clearances to be done as they want results of their breeding program. Good or bad..

GRCA Code of Ethics..requires hips, eyes, heart, elbows. ..among other considerations..
www.grca.org/codeofethics.pdf


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Chris, I think it was an admirable move on your part and I applaud it.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

Way to go Chris we are all for your new ad requirements. Working Retriever Central requires hips in their ads as indicated in their statement "FULL Hip Certification Numbers for both the Sire and Dam of each litter must be included in litter ads." A requirement for hips and CERF represents a forum site that promotes respectable breeding practice and healthy retrievers. :wink:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I can't wait for the day sperm count and egg travel rates are required.

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I can't wait for the day sperm count and egg travel rates are required.
> 
> /Paul


Oh wait, we're talking about the dogs. I misinterpreted this as posting guidelines. Never mind...

/Paul


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Judy Chute said:


> duckpopper said:
> 
> 
> > Chris Atkinson said:
> ...



Hey Judy. I would guess that since only 1678 GR's have had their elbows done in the past thirty years....not a lot of people are following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Just saying.... :wink: 

Again the point I think Chris is trying to make, or what he is trying to do is establish minimum standards to place a litter ad on RTF. He is not trying to be the breed police. I cannot speak for him but that is what I read into this. Remember this is what is required, at a minimum, to place an ad for a litter on RTF. Anyone wanting more testing on a pup they may be interested in is free to pass on any litter they chose too. I think all the organizations out there trying to dictate what testing needs to be done are out of line when it comes to some of the test that are of questionable value. As I pointed out about way, way less than 1% of the lab population has ever had elbows evaluated. Because of such a small sampling nobody knows if the incident of ED is worth testing for or not. The argument can be made because such a small population has been sampled that testing should be done to determine what the actual incidents of ED is, but that in and of itself does not justify requiring such testing in order to breed a dog and IMO, not doing so does not make one an unethical breeder.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

> Hey Judy. I would guess that since only 1678 GR's have had their elbows done in the past thirty years....not a lot of people are following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Just saying....


Not only that, but OFA is not very good at elbows yet-there are many people(myself included) who would not rule out a dog w/o elbow clearances if they were grade 1, and many goldens over 10 will not have them at all. Whistler is 10 and they just started recommending them when he was 2.

Finally, I am one of the ones who asked Chris to ask for clearances for goldens. My hope is now that Chris has asked for this with labs that the golden breeders will step up and do it w/o being asked.

Thanks Chris-from a teacher's point of view you are much more patient with us than I am with my students


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## Teri (Jun 25, 2003)

Quote:
I would guess that since only 1678 GR's have had their elbows done in the past thirty years....not a lot of people are following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Just saying....



Just a small correction--it is not 1678 GR elbows but 16763 GR elbows xrayed as per OFA site thru Dec 2006

Teri


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Again the point I think Chris is trying to make, or what he is trying to do is establish minimum standards to place a litter ad on RTF.


Even with this minimum standard or any other, for that matter, let the buyer beware of ANY item/animal for sale on the internet...


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I can't wait for the day sperm count and egg travel rates are required.
> 
> /Paul


No picture to go with this?  ..would think you might have a really funny one :lol: ..to lighten the thread a little..


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

> Hey Judy. I would guess that since only 1678 GR's have had their elbows done in the past thirty years....not a lot of people are following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Just saying....


Oh..I know  

.. our Goldens are pretty busy, here.. in their play and daily life, alone. If there is an issue, or possible issue down the line that a clearance might tell me..I want to know. ..might be able to give some extra preventative care..keep dog in exellent condition, etc... therefore give the best, normal life..as a retriever. 

We happen to think that our "boys" are the best, they are members of our family..that's the way it is, here...  

Great thread and discussion...

Judy


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Teri said:


> Quote:
> I would guess that since only 1678 GR's have had their elbows done in the past thirty years....not a lot of people are following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Just saying....
> 
> 
> ...


I stand corrected. The eyes are getting old, but even 17,000 in the past 30 years is not enough for a good sample population.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> > Hips,* heart,* eyes....are pretty basic to me in current sire and dam..
> > Judy
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

Don't worry about it. Chris's mandate is impossible. Look at the title of his original post.

Ya can't get none of them clearances on a "puppy".

Jerry


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Judy Chute said:
> 
> 
> > Hips,* heart,* eyes....are pretty basic to me in current sire and dam..
> ...


John,

For Goldens, we are primarily looking for SAS (subaortic stenosis). But has anyone noticed the updated statement on the OFA website:

"At this time inherited, developmental cardiac diseases like subaortic stenosis and cardiomyopathies are difficult to monitor since there is no clear cut distinction between normal and abnormal. The OFA will modify the congenital cardiac database when a proven diagnostic modality and normal parameters by breed are established. However at this time, the OFA cardiac database should not be considered as a screening tool for these diseases." [emphasis in red by OFA, not me]

Does anyone else interpret this as "a clearance is not really a clearance, but send us a check anyway?"


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## Targander (Jul 6, 2004)

:idea: 

You want to know if their is a "congenital" heart defect in the litter of puppies??? Just take a look at their tails (Im speaking for the Labrador puppy tails now, not sure about goldens or others).

Stay CLEAR of pups with "kinks" in their tails. Learned this many years ago.... 

As far as Elbow's go...field lines have fewer problems with these. Although I have been informed that the "Show" lines have a MUCH higher incidence. Im VERY leery of the Show x Field crosses now days. Besides bad "fronts", I have seen a very high incidence of bad elbows. :? 

Dr. Link suggested to me...if not x-raying elbows on every generation on strictly "field" lines, every other should be more than sufficient.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't wait for the day sperm count and egg travel rates are required.
> ...













/Paul


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Having just spent the last 15 years with an active displastic (Penn hipped in the LOWER 20 %tile), a QAA Master Hunter that was still running and sometimes getting to the _water_ in FTs at age 11 .
I have a slightly different slant on concentrating on the orthopedic inherited problems to the exclusion of the other _inherited _problems.

To explain, I have posted an old thread.
If I may, I will paraphrase one of my posts on the referenced thread.

_The almost fanatical pursuit of field trial excellence to the exclusion of other more important factors (more important to the dog, to his owner, and to his veterinarian) has led to a distinctly unhealthy situation in some FT Lab lines. 
Since the majority of FT breeders seem to have directed their efforts toward the production of a winning line, and many of the breeders therefore breed their females to the males that do the most winning at FT's..........
a situation has arisen in which that continued effort to produce Trial winners has lead consistently to a greater and greater exaggerations of "good traits" and along with them the "faults", including those relating to health. 
It is an accepted fact that strong incest breeding is the fastest route to this kind of "success"._

http://retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4536&highlight=bottlenecking

_There is more to this than mouthing platitudes_ regards,

john


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I have a slightly different slant on concentrating on the orthopedic inherited problems to the exclusion of the other _inherited _problems.


Other inherited problems are not being excluded. You will note in Chris' post on the Classified - Lab puppies forum, hip & eye clearance is the *minimum* health clearance required in order to be able to place a classified ad for a Lab litter on RTF.



Chris Atkinson said:


> It's been brought to my attention, and I was in the wrong on this, that my old policy of "you might as well post OFA and CERF" is not working anymore. To solve the ad bumping issue, I made the ads non-repliable.
> 
> The result with non-repliable ads is that those who try to skirt health clearances can no longer be fleshed out.
> 
> ...


_Bold emphasis in the quote of Chris' post is mine._ 

I am sure if other publications, forums, websites were checked, most would not even have a minimum requirement for health clearances. The minimum of hip and eye clearances is a very good start for the ads and interested potential buyers can check for additional health clearances with the breeder.

Vicky


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Vicky,
Rather than digress further from the intent of the original announcement with more public debate, I've PMed you my response to your post.

john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Somehow John feels that RTF should post disclaimers about genetic bottlenecking...

There's no way we're going to make everybody happy, but based upon the response, there are a whole bunch pretty tickled.

Someone wrote on page one that "elbows are more crippling than hips".

This reminds me of a shotshell debate. Last I knew, dead was dead whether it was steel or bismuth.  Crippled is crippled.

Chris


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Somehow John feels that RTF should post disclaimers about genetic bottlenecking...
> 
> There's no way we're going to make everybody happy, but based upon the response, there are a whole bunch pretty tickled.
> 
> ...


I'm all for the new guidelines for pup ads  ... 

Elbows though...I am of the opinion that the dog has more trouble dealing with really bad elbows..than hips..in that they sometimes can "make due" with hip issues, and use front end to help haul the rear. The front end though ( does not carry well ..also, is more likely to cause rear end issues. Just an opinion ..and I think I will read up on this.. I noticed the post and it occurred to me that that very well may be true.. 

I am not saying that elbow clearances should be added to the puppy ad qualifications...this is just a matter of discussion and is of interest. 

Judy


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## Bill Schuna (Mar 11, 2004)

*Posting Hip and Eye Clearances for Sire and Dam*

Thanks Chris. 

Bill


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Somehow John feels that RTF should post disclaimers about genetic bottlenecking...
> 
> There's no way we're going to make everybody happy, but based upon the response, there are a whole bunch pretty tickled.
> 
> ...


Chris, The goal of any breeder should be to better the breed and accepted minimum health clearance's is a small price to pay. Last year our club reviewed our policy of litter posting and now require anyone wishing to post a litter sign a breeders responsabilty for that states the parents of the litter have met the Breed clubs minimum for health clearance's. Not perfect, but a start.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> There's no way we're going to make everybody happy, but based upon the response, there are a whole bunch pretty tickled.



I hope you're not counting me in the "ticked" column - far from it. I fully support what you did, and even where you stopped.

My initial question about CNM was merely curiosity, not criticism.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> Elbows though...I am of the opinion that the dog has more trouble dealing with really bad elbows..than hips..in that they sometimes can "make due" with hip issues, and use front end to help haul the rear. The front end though ( does not carry well ..also, is more likely to cause rear end issues. Just an opinion ..and I think I will read up on this.. I noticed the post and it occurred to me that that very well may be true..
> 
> I am not saying that elbow clearances should be added to the puppy ad qualifications...this is just a matter of discussion and is of interest.
> 
> Judy


It IS a mute point since elbow clearances will not be required on RTF. I think that the assessment of elbows being worst of 2 evils is correct from my experience. 

Bought a pup that ended up with the worst class hips - replacement pup, horrible front end. The front end dog had much more discomfort and was unable to do much. The hip dog did much better with buffered aspirin, hip surgery and lived to the age of 16. Both of these animals were cared for and members of our family for many years...

I would never want to wish either problem on someone else. Neither problem is good but when I hear that a dog has a front end problem, I want more than someone saying it is an injury

...and when a breeder does not do elbows (or CNM and any other clearance and research to prevent problems), I have no interest in their breeding regardless of the pedigree. Guarantees do not pay you back for the attachment, vet costs and the poor quality of life for those animals produced.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> Elbows though...I am of the opinion that the dog has more trouble dealing with really bad elbows..than hips..in that they sometimes can "make due" with hip issues, and use front end to help haul the rear. The front end though ( does not carry well ..also, is more likely to cause rear end issues. Just an opinion ..and I think I will read up on this.. I noticed the post and it occurred to me that that very well may be true..
> 
> I am not saying that elbow clearances should be added to the puppy ad qualifications...this is just a matter of discussion and is of interest.
> 
> Judy


It IS a mute point since elbow clearances will not be required on RTF. I think that the assessment of elbows being worst of 2 evils is correct from my experience. 

Bought a pup that ended up with the worst class hips - replacement pup, horrible front end. The front end dog had much more discomfort and was unable to do much. The hip dog did much better with buffered aspirin, hip surgery and lived to the age of 16. Both of these animals were cared for and members of our family for many years...

I would never want to wish either problem on someone else. Neither problem is good but when I hear that a dog has a front end problem, I want more than someone saying it is an injury

...and when a breeder does not do elbows (or CNM and any other clearance and research to prevent problems), I have no interest in their breeding regardless of the pedigree. Guarantees do not pay you back for the attachment, vet costs and the poor quality of life for those animals produced.


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