# My first time seeing myself handle on video... links attached.



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, here goes:

I debated whether or not to post these publicly. I realized that I've been handling for HT/FT/hunting since the late 80's and I have NEVER seen myself on video.

I have watched a few times and I see some things that I need to fix, and did not realize I was doing.

Here are the video links:

Rosie - not a retriever - her second time ever with gunner-thrown marks. She has not been taught proper delivery/force breaking. We probably will not do so. (never say "never" though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPEdO652hQ8&feature=channel

Bus - my lab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymW8b2YMYCY&feature=channel

Edit after watching: This is a city golf course that was recently shut down. It is in the city. No shooting allowed. Friends in law enforcement tell me blank pistol use would likely result in some squad cars and officers with guns drawn. I'm not going there!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Rosie's a pip... What fun!!

You probably already know this but your sending way to quick once you drop your hand. 

You fuss to much with Buzz hand cuing on the singles. Also you stand to high on the dog. Drop back to his hip. It will give you more room to push/pull your dog. It also opens up the field for the dog. You should step up if need be to help the dog find the gun, but then drop back before you call for the gun.

Dog should be in the middle of the mat and you on either side....

I didn't watch the video's all the way through. I've got to return some phone calls but that's what I got so far....

Don't cha love it??!! ;-)

Angie


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Angie B said:


> You fuss to much with Buzz hand cuing on the singles. Dog should be in the middle of the mat and you on either side....


I noticed the same things. Funny how that FF'd dog looks like he is enjoying his work!

Good job!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Dman said:


> I noticed the same things. Funny how that FF'd dog looks like he is enjoying his work!
> 
> Good job!


He probably is, we just can't see it... LOL!! Some dogs are darn serious about their work.... ;-)

Now the brindle pit had a hell of a good time!!!!

Angie


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

At work and finally got to watch your video all the way through. Rosie looks like fun!!!! Buzz looked good. Runs real straight. Yes others have said you send too fast but don't we all!!! Nice place to train. Thanks for posting Chris It is a real eye opener for you when you do a video but a great learning tool. Thanks


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Very nice! I _REALLY _liked the way you instructed your bird guys. Clear, concise, calm and when it went south you remained just the same. Too many shouters out there!

Bus is a great looking dog. But please, please tell me there is a fence between the field and that super busy street in one of the backgrounds. When the dog crossed the rise he disappeared. One that runs fast and long, could be out there before ya know it.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Angie B said:


> He probably is, we just can't see it... LOL!! Some dogs are darn serious about their work.... ;-)
> 
> Now the brindle pit had a hell of a good time!!!!
> 
> Angie


I thought you were "returning phone calls"? :razz: everyone on your speed dial list or just didn't want to talk? :razz:


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

When the title was "HANDLE" I expected to see you perform on a blind .


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Dman said:


> I thought you were "returning phone calls"? :razz: everyone on your speed dial list or just didn't want to talk? :razz:


What do you think? I hang on the phone?? I cut to the chase... Gotta get back to RTF...

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Angie B said:


> You fuss to much with Buzz hand cuing on the singles. Also you stand to high on the dog. Drop back to his hip. It will give you more room to push/pull your dog. It also opens up the field for the dog. You should step up if need be to help the dog find the gun, but then drop back before you call for the gun.


I disagree.

I prefer standing with my inside leg even with the dog's shoulder.

I think that the dog is more cognizant of where you are and that small movements on your part can influence the dog when you stand more forward on the dog.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Angie B said:


> What do you think? I hang on the phone?? I cut to the chase... Gotta get back to RTF...
> 
> Angie


I should have known!


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Good afternoon for you guys to be out on the veranda!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Nice Chris, only thing that stood out to me, was the quick send and we all do it, one of those thing I always have to think about myself. It was hard to tell in the video, but around the 2 minute mark, you gave a light stick correction and had the gunner pick up the mark, was the correction for the slight head swing?? 

We had a golf course close up here a few years ago it was good for a couple years and then it got overgrown and unusable, but it was nice while it lasted..


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

More handlers should have someone video tape them while handling -- on marks and on blinds. Why do I think this?

Well, I am the wife. Long ago I was telling my husband what I thought he was doing wrong. I quickly learned that was not the smart thing to do. No more constructive criticism; I keep my mouth shut.

Years pass, he gets better as a handler, he is getting wins and placements. He goes to a Dave Rorem seminar. He gets constructive criticism from Dave (and does not bite Dave's head off). Later, in the mail he gets a video of himself handling at the Rorem seminar. 

We both sit down to watch the video. I say nothing. I just watch. 

He says:
"Boy, I sure look old."
"Boy, that jacket has sure shrunk up in the back."

And then very quietly under his breath,
"Why did I do that? I gotta work on that."

No matter how long you have been in the game, have someone video tape you while you are handling. You are probably not aware of the things you are doing or not doing.

Helen


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## Jim Harvey (Feb 7, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I prefer standing with my inside leg even with the dog's shoulder.
> 
> I think that the dog is more cognizant of where you are and that small movements on your part can influence the dog when you stand more forward on the dog.


Interesting Ted, your words are close to the exact thing Mike Lardy taught Chris three years ago at a great workshop we attended. The wonderful thing it that Chris actually remembered it and made it a habit. 

Good job my friend, you and Bus looked really dialed in.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I prefer standing with my inside leg even with the dog's shoulder.
> 
> I think that the dog is more cognizant of where you are and that small movements on your part can influence the dog when you stand more forward on the dog.


When staging the dog yes,,, but when pushing or pulling the dog as the marks go down you have more room to operate when you're not crowding the dog.

I ran dogs on Dave's truck this winter that were trained by someone else and those dogs wanted you very upfront on their body. It was very hard to move them easily in a quiet manner from gun to gun. They needed lots of movement, lots of vocal encouragement and motion which is not good on the line...

But if it works for you Ted? Don't mess with it...

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I think we need a video of Chris and Bus doing multiples....

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Dman said:


> Good afternoon for you guys to be out on the veranda!



Are you kidding?? With spring break and everything else that needs done around here the veranda is the last place you'll see me.

And you?

Angie


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> More handlers should have someone video tape them while handling -- on marks and on blinds. Why do I think this?



We try to do it a few times a year, it's even better when they don't know you have the camera out, and there not thinking about it..


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Jim Harvey said:


> Interesting Ted, your words are close to the exact thing Mike Lardy taught Chris three years ago at a great workshop we attended. The wonderful thing it that Chris actually remembered it and made it a habit.
> 
> Good job my friend, you and Bus looked really dialed in.


Don't you just love clinics... ;-)

I know a lot of pro's that clinics were their only education...

FWIW

Angie


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Weather your high up on a dog or behind him,,,,as long as you are consistant at what your doing,,,the dog will figure it out. Each position has there advantages.
I have no idea how people line /aim their dog looking straight down on it.

But then many don't understand how someone can easily move a dog from behind.


Chris
What made Buses ears drop back,,,did you tell him to sit ,,,,?
I thought you looked way better than what I would look like. I was impressed that you can stand up so quickly after squatting.

Pete


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Veranda for me. This weather is just too nice.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree.
> *
> I prefer standing with my inside leg even with the dog's shoulder.*
> 
> I think that the dog is more cognizant of where you are and that small movements on your part can influence the dog when you stand more forward on the dog.


Ted : just so I/we are talking about the same thing do any of these pictures depict which position you prefer

Figure 1










Figure 2










Figure 3










Figure 4













photos are from my personal collection and are of Clint (w/Brig), KJ Rice(w/Dora), Don Remien( w/ Hank), Charlene Keoth( w/ Lil)...


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Ted : just so I/we are talking about the same thing do any of these pictures depict which position you prefer
> 
> Figure 1
> 
> ...


Ahhhh NO! Because none of them are at the shoulder...

Angie


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Angie B said:


> Ahhhh NO! Because none of them are at the shoulder...
> 
> Angie


that was kind of the point of asking the question as opposed to these pictures where the handler is at the hip


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Nice Chris, only thing that stood out to me, was the quick send and we all do it, one of those thing I always have to think about myself. It was hard to tell in the video, but around the 2 minute mark, you gave a light stick correction and had the gunner pick up the mark, was the correction for the slight head swing??
> 
> We had a golf course close up here a few years ago it was good for a couple years and then it got overgrown and unusable, but it was nice while it lasted..


 
Yes Todd, the head swing was the exact reason for the tap (literally just a tap) with the stick and the pick up by Tim. It is also the reason I asked the short gun on the left to come out front and be more visible. 

This was the key thing I wanted to work on with that mark...look past the short gun. Watch the long gun....really watch the long gun. Do not head swing. And then I blew part of it by sending him so fast! 

I agree on the rushed sends and am not the least bit surprised that everyone saw it. 

I do appreciate everyone's commentary. 

I definitely need to do more video and do more self-analysis. 

Thanks everyone.

Chris


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I find that when my knee is at my dogs hip, my movements need to be larger, and I need to make more of an effort to get her attention. We work hard to keep her shoulder at my knee, and when we're successful, our movements are much more subtle and smoother.


This is my experience

As for Bon's photographs, I prefer the first set to the second set. By and large, I still prefer to be a bit more forward on the dog than it is depicted in the first set. However, the set up for a send after the first, often has other considerations


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I thought Chris' body position with the dog was perfect. (They get used to how they have been trained.) What I noticed is that Chris does not put his hand down on the longer retired gun on the double. He also seemed to turn off of the short retired gun on the set up where he made the big swing to get himself in position for the next mark, sooner rather than later. I usually count 2-3 seconds from the time the mark hits the ground... unless the count by the judges is quicker than that, of course. this coincides with the quick sends. But again, Bus is used to Chris' training methods...


Loved Rosie.... but where is Violet?


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## PlushHunter (Mar 9, 2012)

Chris I will have my good camera up and ready soon we will get alot more quality videos of all the guys in the group. I like to use videos for my Archery form also this is one reason why I video tape about everything for critiquing.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> This is my experience
> 
> As for Bon's photographs, I prefer the first set to the second set. By and large, I still prefer to be a bit more forward on the dog than it is depicted in the first set. However, the set up for a send after the first, often has other considerations


Thanks for answering Ted, I just wanted some clarification, Clint tells me I stand too far back too, he prefers the front shoulder like you do too..but in full disclosure, I know that only the first picture with Clint was a blind, the second set of pictures were all marks from the last series at RRiver, and I cant remember if the pics of Don,KJ and Charli were blinds or marks


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I thought Chris' body position with the dog was perfect. (They get used to how they have been trained.) What I noticed is that Chris does not put his hand down on the longer retired gun on the double. He also seemed to turn off of the short retired gun on the set up where he made the big swing to get himself in position for the next mark, sooner rather than later. I usually count 2-3 seconds from the time the mark hits the ground... unless the count by the judges is quicker than that, of course. this coincides with the quick sends. But again, Bus is used to Chris' training methods...
> 
> 
> Loved Rosie.... but where is Violet?


Susan,

Your critique nails exactly what drives me the most nuts when I view the video.

My goals were to do 2 things. I wanted marks that were pretty low on the difficulty level - likely to produce success. I wanted to work on head swinging on the 2nd mark thrown. I wanted to work on live human-thrown retired marks.

It drives me NUTS how fast I swung off of both retired marks to turn to the short "go bird", which is really just thrown to set up the retired memory bird. I almost cancelled out the whole purpose of the first setup, which was to work on head swinging. 

I want to work on head swinging more. I do think he may have learned something on that head swing, and I intentionally just gave him a tiny tap to tell him he's not to swing to that short gun. I do agree that my attempts to really work with him to get him to lock in on that long gun and NOT swing over to the short left mark (did not show well in video) were fidgety looking. It is entirely possible that I worried him by the repeated cueing and hand movements. 

I did send him fast on that head swinging mark after the stick tap. I did this because he did as I was urging and stayed focused on that mark and did not head swing. I decided to kick him off fast and set him up for success once he stayed looking at that long mark.

On the "no hand send" for the retired memory birds: I used to "always" put a hand down for all memory birds with Bus. I stopped this when coached to avoid it in Summer of 2009 at a workshop in Montello. 

We were urged to not use a hand on memory birds, in general, unless it was to drive the dog deep. In both of the retired marks we ran, they were plopping right out in a "want to go to" spot (in my opinion). I did not want to drive the dog deep, due to the location of the marks and the fact that there were roads behind the marks. (and no, there is no fence between the mark and that busy road - to answer someone who mentioned that)

I also realize that "golf course marks" are not the sort of thing that's going to help us hammer All Age work. I do try to use that setting to work on concepts like retired mark mechanics and head swinging. 

Now to just slow down and not rush!

Violet was on the truck. Since Rosie came along, Vi has decided bumpers are for nerds. Give Violet a mole or a mouse and she's game-on. In the absence of a rodent, a UPS driver or Schwann's man will do . (just kidding  )


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Thanks for answering Ted, I just wanted some clarification, Clint tells me I stand too far back too, he prefers the front shoulder like you do too..but in full disclosure, I know that only the first picture with Clint was a blind, the second set of pictures were all marks from the last series at RRiver, and I cant remember if the pics of Don,KJ and Charli were blinds or marks


 
I liked the first set too. Like Susan wrote, I'd imagine some of this is all in what the dog and handler do as a matter of consistency. For me personally, if I had my dog out in front like photo set #2, I personally would feel out of control. I would feel like I'd set the dog up with a creep before we ever even got the first bird thrown. 

I figure I'm going to be more calm and better help run the series with the dog if I'm comfortable and not feeling out of place. To me, being that far back on the dog would feel out of place. 

I do appreciate all folks' commentary though!

Thanks for posting the example pics Bon!

Chris


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Chris, nice butt!! Nice bus(s) too.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Aussie said:


> Chris, nice butt!! Nice bus(s) too.


Haha! Thanks.  ;-)


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I look forward to Rosie's FF sessions.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Thanks for answering Ted, I just wanted some clarification, Clint tells me I stand too far back too, he prefers the front shoulder like you do too..but in full disclosure, I know that only the first picture with Clint was a blind, the second set of pictures were all marks from the last series at RRiver, and I cant remember if the pics of Don,KJ and Charli were blinds or marks


Since that picture (a year ago), I have moved up and prefer it for the reason stated by Ted. I think my dog responds better to subtle movements and I have more control. I believe Hillmann stated "toes to nose" in his video. With my size 14 clod-hoppers, it puts me at the shoulder. It seems like the bigger, louder movements needed, from standing back, take away from a dog's focus.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

kjrice said:


> Since that picture (a year ago), I have moved up and prefer it for the reason stated by Ted. I think my dog responds better to subtle movements and I have more control. I believe Hillmann stated "toes to nose" in his video. With my size 14 clod-hoppers, it puts me at the shoulder. It seems like the bigger, louder movements needed, from standing back, take away from a dog's focus.


I got you covered pardner, you were much further up in this picture


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> For me personally, if I had my dog out in front like photo set #2, I personally would feel out of control. Chris


It's hard to drive a Bus or a car from the back seat. A person whose opinion you would respect stated that you have to be close to the dog to pull, pulling is much harder from the back seat for most of us.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Videos of you handling can be humbling but at the same time a good learning experience.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Videos of you handling can be humbling but at the same time a good learning experience.


 
Wayne, I can honestly say that I'd have not posted the videos at all if I'd not seen you have the guts to do it. I mean that sincerely.

I've gotten feedback on the stuff that bothered me. I've gotten feedback on some stuff I'd not thought of. I've gotten feedback on my butt and my brindle pit.

Overall, I'm very glad I posted the videos!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> It's hard to drive a Bus or a car from the back seat. A person whose opinion you would respect stated that you have to be close to the dog to pull, pulling is much harder from the back seat for most of us.


Thanks Doc. The back seat is exactly how I'd feel. 

The dogs and handler in Bon's "set 2" of pictures shows what appears to me to be a handler and two different dogs who are accustomed-to and comfortable with that configuration. As such, it probably works for them.

I personally feel glad that my dog is comfortable with my knee at his shoulder and is not sneaking a step or two ahead just to keep out in front of me. For me personally, it feels, as KJR mentioned, like very subtle movements - mostly with my outside leg, can have pretty dramatic impact on my dog's attention, alignment and focus - when we are dogshoulder-handlerknee aligned.

Earlier, someone mentioned the idea of getting the dog lined up, then "stepping back" once he's lined up. I remember doing this exact thing at a workshop. The guy who has won more trials than I ever will said "You had him lined up perfectly! Why did you then move back and pull him off???! " Actually, that very mark is my avatar picture. 

Thanks to all of you for your feedback!


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog


I think you ment,,,it makes it easier for *you *to make fine corrections without much fuss.

If I ran a dog from that high up i'd never get him to settle in and lock. It would respond to every breath I take, and more than likely any arm movement what so ever would change its positioning.

So that *style *could be said to be counter to the way I train. Thats all it is.*style. *
I like how Don Romeins position,,,,it seems more comfortable to me.

I just can't see a right or wrong way of doing this. As long as the dog responds to you than thats the right way. 

I think people fight to try to emmulate icons. I think we should do whats comfortable for us.

If we can't make it work that way or if it affects something down the road,,,,then change.. my 02%

Pete


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> I think you ment,,,it makes it easier for *you *to make fine corrections without much fuss.
> 
> If I ran a dog from that high up i'd never get him to settle in and lock. It would respond to every breath I take, and more than likely any arm movement what so ever would change its positioning.
> 
> ...


Two percent? haha... I like it!

Hey, look what a little bird sent me via email. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjFLgARvx-w

I had never seen this video clip before a moment ago. For me, this makes very good sense. I like it.

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Can't get the whole video to load but you should watch the dog not the mark. 

/Paul


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> On the "no hand send" for the retired memory birds: I used to "always" put a hand down for all memory birds with Bus. I stopped this when coached to avoid it in Summer of 2009 at a workshop in Montello.
> 
> We were urged to not use a hand on memory birds, in general, unless it was to drive the dog deep. In both of the retired marks we ran, they were plopping right out in a "want to go to" spot (in my opinion). I did not want to drive the dog deep, due to the location of the marks and the fact that there were roads behind the marks. (and no, there is no fence between the mark and that busy road - to answer someone who mentioned that)


Great analysis of the hand down vs. no hand down debate. (The other debate that handlers always seem to have his "do I put the dog on my right, or on my left?"). I'll give you another scenario to think about. 

I was once running an AA stake, and there was an under the arc bird that was "butt-pucker tight" (for the handler and the dog) under the arc - moderate length. Dogs were avoiding going under the arc like the plague. This was the 4th series so it was a tad important. Dogs were going behind the gun, and heading out to no mans land to the left. Dogs were doing far right, and getting pushed so long their either went into another no mans land or to the right hand long gun. (Then try to get the dog back to that mark - no way!). So, on that particular mark, I did put my hand down, to show the dog it was important, but, I gave it a moderate send instead of a loud send. It worked.  That was my attainment for the day....


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Okay, not that I have much room to talk, but my Butthead has been a work in progress....not only him, but myself, too.

I have learned I like to be up on him, not back by the hip. This is not how we started out together and he was definitely driving the bus when I was back by his hip. Also from a "flow" perspective when setting up for the marks and while they are being thrown, I find my self more comfortable being up on his shoulder and my movements to help move him from gun to gun is smoother for both of us - i send less mixed signals.

Of course I do manage to screw it up from time to time but we are a work in progress. 

Also I have found out I can line him up easier on blinds by being up by his shoulder...

FOM


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Great analysis of the hand down vs. no hand down debate. (The other debate that handlers always seem to have his "do I put the dog on my right, or on my left?"). I'll give you another scenario to think about.
> 
> I was once running an AA stake, and there was an under the arc bird that was "butt-pucker tight" (for the handler and the dog) under the arc - moderate length. Dogs were avoiding going under the arc like the plague. This was the 4th series so it was a tad important. Dogs were going behind the gun, and heading out to no mans land to the left. Dogs were doing far right, and getting pushed so long their either went into another no mans land or to the right hand long gun. (Then try to get the dog back to that mark - no way!). So, on that particular mark, I did put my hand down, to show the dog it was important, but, I gave it a moderate send instead of a loud send. It worked.  That was my attainment for the day....


What cool timing. I just....JUST got off the phone with a FT friend who painted the same sort of picture. 

To paraphrase what I was just told, (this stuff fascinates me) my source said he/she will use the hand on memory birds: 1) To Drive the dog "deep" on a punch bird. 2) To unconfuse a dog who seems to have trouble locking in, focusing, or remembering the memory bird. 3) To emphatically show the dog the right way to go, when the conditions show a strong tendency for previous dogs' ( or the obvious intentions of the dog at your side ) to go other than the "right" way.

Know what...I'm glad I posted the videos!

Thanks! Chris


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> 3) To emphatically show the dog the right way to go, when the conditions show a strong tendency for previous dogs' ( or the obvious intentions of the dog at your side ) to go other than the "right" way.


OK Chris, short retired but the dogs want to go left of some obstacle. Dogs that went left haven't been successful. Your dog wants to line up left. The hand drives them deep but emphasizes the right line. Whatcha do, hand or no hand?



In the past, I have used my hand to line them and then taken it away and stood up, trying not to loom over them which seems to pressure them driving them deep, waited them out making sure they're committed to the line and then send them soft. Does work  ......... Sometimes


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Two percent? haha... I like it!
> 
> Hey, look what a little bird sent me via email.


Thanks Chris
I liked the video,,,It must be nice to have acess to little birdies,,,,, who am I to argue with an Icon in the retriever sports.



I do have to ask though
Has anyone ever won an open with the dog in the butt/heel of foot position.?
\
Just a thought to throw in to the mix
Handling is Communication ,,,, not just when you choose to blow a whistle or not to..
A dog doesn't have to see your hand over his head to know its there.
Very interesting topic.






I put the % thingy to bring a smile,,I'm smiling that you noticed it. I tried to kill 2 birds with 1 symbol.


Pete


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Pete said:


> I do have to ask though
> Has anyone ever won an open with the dog in the butt/heel of foot position.?


I could name several to whom "heel" was an unknown position much less sitting but think how much better they might have been


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Howard N said:


> OK Chris, short retired but the dogs want to go left of some obstacle. Dogs that went left haven't been successful. Your dog wants to line up left. The hand drives them deep but emphasizes the right line. Whatcha do, hand or no hand?
> 
> 
> 
> In the past, I have used my hand to line them and then taken it away and stood up, trying not to loom over them which seems to pressure them driving them deep, *waited them out making sure they're committed to the line *and then send them soft. Does work  ......... Sometimes


 
I wait for the ear flick........ when I get the ear flick, I've got it... (usually.... ). It means "I've heard you... now, just let me go..."

What is your "tell" sign on the committment Howard?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I don't have anything Susan. Or when I have, they've all done something I didn't expect. I used to wait for the lean in but that doesn't work. Now I wait, then wait some more then put my hand in and sent on the long ones. Short ones I stand back and watch and wait until I'm sure. 

I've blown it a lot too.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

This is a GREAT thread!!! Trials are won and lost in that 3'X3' area. It's great to have folks with history and experience "discuss" the various nuances. This use to take years to learn/understand now in a few days the average Joe has a wealth of information.... Being able to apply it at the line under pressure .....Priceless


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Rosie looks like she is having such a grand time.....just look at that tail wagging!! Keep up on her training, Chris  I think you'll learn lots in training her


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks for sharing Chris


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## duckkiller (Jan 18, 2012)

What kind of hunting is the trainer and the dog in the video trying to simulate? I have hunted all my life and have yet to have a that scenario pop up.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

duckkiller said:


> What kind of hunting is the trainer and the dog in the video trying to simulate? I have hunted all my life and have yet to have a that scenario pop up.


Hi Captain Mike,

You got me there. Thanks for watching the videos.

I appreciated your email back in January. I have bumped you a copy of that with an updated reply.

Have fun with RTF and your dogs. 

I wrote in one of the responses in this thread that I had two goals in this session that was videotaped (with my lab): work on head swinging, and work on retired guns. I was not in any way trying to simulate any kind of hunt. I was retriever training.

With my other dog, my goal was to simply go get Rosie out of the truck and have some fun since I had a willing gunner out there to throw some marks. Again, no hunting scenario claimed, nor implied. Just dog training...even with a pit! This was Rosie's second time ever picking up marks thrown by an assistant. It was Rosie's FIRST session working on steadiness....ever.

Do you run any hunt tests or field trials? Do you intend to? 

Sincerely, Chris

P.S. that coat in my avitar picture...it's for dog training. When I hunt, I don't wear it. I do lots of things differently when I hunt than when I train.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

duckkiller said:


> What kind of hunting is the trainer and the dog in the video trying to simulate? I have hunted all my life and have yet to have a that scenario pop up.


You don't state your age so what folows is relative - there is a saying in the sport - I've never had my dog do that  - followed by - well you won't be able to say that next time - 

Stick around long enough you may get a .


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> Weather your high up on a dog or behind him,,,,as long as you are consistant at what your doing,,,the dog will figure it out. Each position has there advantages.
> I have no idea how people line /aim their dog looking straight down on it.
> 
> But then many don't understand how someone can easily move a dog from behind.
> ...


Pete, I watched the video for Bus' ears and saw lots of ear movement on each retrieve setup. What is the timestamp that you're asking about? Also, you may be able to turn up your volume and actually hear whatever he heard.

I'm glad you asked this as I was not paying nearly as much attention to his head and ear position as I did as a result of this question. 

Chris


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOPete, I watched the video for Bus' ears and saw lots of ear movement on each retrieve setup. What is the timestamp that you're asking about? Also, you may be able to turn up your volume and actually hear whatever he heard.

I'm glad you asked this as I was not paying nearly as much attention to his head and ear position as I did as a result of this questionTE][/quote]

Chris
At 13-16 seconds is the only one I could tell from the video . On my pute it came out as a center picture flanked by 2 equal sized black strips. It was right before you called the number 5

Also when Bus comes back from the first mark he is not set up nose to toes.


the minutes for this are about 4.54 and about 6.08
Is this on purpose or did you get side tracked by whats going on out in the field?
Again,,,,you did a good job. Bus appears to be excellent on the line and a really nice dog to be around. 
Some of the errors you made are made by ALL of us.
Its the frequency that gets curbed over time,,,hopefully .

Pete


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

> Pete said:
> 
> 
> > [QUOPete, I watched the video for Bus' ears and saw lots of ear movement on each retrieve setup. What is the timestamp that you're asking about? Also, you may be able to turn up your volume and actually hear whatever he heard.
> ...


Cool....I watched it and here's what I came up with. 

On the ears going back, I will watch that more just to see if I can see a pattern going forward. It looks like his ears are back until he realizes what gun is going to yell or shoot, then his ears go up as he listens for the shot and watches the mark. Then his ears come back again as he's listening for the judge to talk to me, or whatever's going to happen before he gets released. I'll watch it more, but I don't think his ears EVER stay up for the duration of hearing the gun, seeing the fall, and until the send. I think they always drop back before he's sent. (or in the case of a multiple, they're coming up again as he's watching the next thrown mark).

I'm definitely focused on what's going on out there with the gunners in the video. I'm definitely not spending as much time on the finer "at line" stuff that I could be (or should be). At 4:54, he was lined up, looking right at the retired memory bird and sitting. The judge had already released us when we picked up the memory bird. He looked settled in, so I sent him.

At 6:08, we were setting up another retired mark. I believe that prior to the first mark being thrown, we were lined up fairly typically. Then, to set up the retired mark without him watching the gun walk off, I stepped "into" him, to pivot him away. There was no visible gun out there, since I was just tossing the shortie from the line. To my mind, he reacted to my push and stepped, probably more than I'd like him to (but then again, I gave a pretty exaggerated push, so he reacted - it's probably more on me than him). I was at his hip After I'd pushed him off to the left and had handthrown the go bird. 

Just curious on this 6:08 bird. What would you have done? Would you have re-heeled him before sending him? I don't know that I have EVER reheeled him in training in a situation like that. But heck, that would have been an easy mark to do it. Maybe I should be reheeling in those situations to try and maintain a strong standard that even after we turn on multiples, we should still be aligned consistently. Then again, maybe rather than reheeling, I should be pushing him less agressively to get a more refined, slighter turn.

Thanks Pete.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Just curious on this 6:08 bird. What would you have done? Would you have re-heeled him before sending him? I don't know that I have EVER reheeled him in training in a situation like that. But heck, that would have been an easy mark to do it. Maybe I should be reheeling in those situations to try and maintain a strong standard that even after we turn on multiples, we should still be aligned consistently. Then again, maybe rather than reheeling, I should be pushing him less agressively to get a more refined, slighter turn.


Chris

I naturally run butt/heel or there abouts ,,,if the dog ever gets further than that or is considering itI just push a button with no command and they fly back into place . So for me when a dog "breaks or creeps " it hasn;t broken the sit ,,it has broken the place of heel.and I don't think I get ears folding back when I do it.. mostly because of developement. I train with animation in mind. SO most of my dogs look like they will explode but don't (usually),,,Not good for winning I suppose ,,,but it sure is pretty. Running a dog on the edge and still being in control is what interests me,, winning doesn't,,I have broken away from tradition training so,,

Personally if you always run Bus on every mark head to toe then put him back in that position. Don't let him be out front ,,(maintenence) 
I am definitely the wrong guy to talk about field trials, and the wrong guy to take advice from about things concerning field trials. I would take Bills advice over mine if I were you Although movement/posture/placement of handler in relationship to dog is not a field trial only topic. Many things are going on in the dogs head as this plays out,which is evidenced by the changes in posture which takes place from the last holding blind to when the dogs number is called.

Although I enjoy running trials and would enjoy doing well,,,my interests in trials lies more in movement and posture and how dealing with those (canine thoughts) might get me to the 4th series if they ever will,,I live for that more than training set ups . Crazy huh. I'm a weird guy.
Pete


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Yes Todd, the head swing was the exact reason for the tap (literally just a tap) with the stick and the pick up by Tim. It is also the reason I asked the short gun on the left to come out front and be more visible.
> 
> This was the key thing I wanted to work on with that mark...look past the short gun. Watch the long gun....really watch the long gun. Do not head swing. And then I blew part of it by sending him so fast!
> 
> ...


Here I am nearly a year later. After GDG posted his videos, I decided to seek out this thread. This is still my only videos that I've put online. I do have a few more videos that someone did at a retriever demo from the summer. I may post some of that on Youtube, just for the heck of it.

Here is the cool thing about the videos in this thread: I had NO IDEA this guy was behind me videotaping with his phone. I guess I should have realized it, but I was too focused on instructing the gunners (2 of whom were on their second or third training session ever), thinking about all sorts of things. 

I think of rushed sends a bit like where the muzzle of our shotgun points when hunting or shooting. We really need to create a subconscious awareness at all times of: where our muzzle is pointed, and how fast we send our dog!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> I thought Chris' body position with the dog was perfect. (They get used to how they have been trained.) What I noticed is that Chris does not put his hand down on the longer retired gun on the double. He also seemed to turn off of the short retired gun on the set up where he made the big swing to get himself in position for the next mark, sooner rather than later. I usually count 2-3 seconds from the time the mark hits the ground... unless the count by the judges is quicker than that, of course. this coincides with the quick sends. But again, Bus is used to Chris' training methods...
> 
> 
> Loved Rosie.... but where is Violet?


Violet wound up having not one, but two torn cruciates over the past year. When I did this training session, I thought Violet had lost her desire to retrieve. Today marks 16 days after her TPLO number two. She seems like she's more comfortable today than she has been for a long time. 

Who knows? We may see Violet out there retrieving again. Pete has a Violet on Youtube, why shouldn't I?


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Good stuff Chris. I have thought about posting some hunting/training videos of myself handling; and one in particular of my vocal lab going crazy to get outside to retrieve. I could use some advice, but a bit embarrassing for all to see. 

Nothing like good feedback, be it humbling or praising. I think we all like the praising better. But, constructive criticism is how we learn. 

Tough to put yourself out there--transparency is the current buzz word. Very courageous on your part--not sure I could withstand the scrutiny of the many experts on RTF. Might follow your lead, if you promise to lock the thread if criticism get's ugly;-)


Nice dog work Chris!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

John, You can delete the thread yourself.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

So Chris, is this what Robert Burns meant by:

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us

?


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Okay, quick "idiot" (English!) question. I only watched the lab clip and haven't quite waded through all 7 pages of the thread, but what is the big orange stick for? I can't quite work it out.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Chris

Terrific video. First, I admire your training calmness. Second, it was great seeing the work of your pitbull.

Reminds me of my cousin's rescue, Gozer. He's a redbone coonhound. I taught him a basic retrieve and he loves it.


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