# Calm Shen



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Has anyone ever heard of this product?
Used it?

Any opinions?


Thanks,


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

I had to do a google search on it...I'd never heard of it.

http://www.herbsmithinc.com/Home/Canine/Herbs/CalmShen/default.asp

No experience with it, but I know of a few people I'd like to try this out on. I guess that's why they make Prozac.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Travis Schneider said:


> I had to do a google search on it...I'd never heard of it.
> 
> http://www.herbsmithinc.com/Home/Canine/Herbs/CalmShen/default.asp
> 
> No experience with it, but I know of a few people I'd like to try this out on. I guess that's why they make Prozac.


HAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Maybe I should try it????

I talked to the people who make it.
They developed it for FT Spaniels and Labs that run some kind of test, I didn't understand which though.
It has no pharmaceuticals, all herbs.
They swear it has no negative effects towards energy or attitude.


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## Bill Stoune (Jul 18, 2011)

I use this and really think it helps. I have a very anxious 5 year old Labrador. She has issues with other dogs (dogs not in her own pack) and gets overly anxious when left at home. That being said, she does retrieve, but nothing formal (not a dog we compete with). I am only giving her 1/2 of the recommended dose now and I notice a significant difference after 4 weeks. I will soon give her the full dose and expect to see an even better result. I like that she does not seem "sedated," for lack of a better term, but instead is like a more calm version of herself. 

I have to admit that I was very skeptical of something such as this. A training friend recommended a different brand but I can get Herbsmith wholesale so I went with it. I have used other products they make and have been happy with them. I even called and talked to a representative on a Sunday afternoon. They take turns forwarding calls to their cell phones so they are always accesible to clients. You are also able to schedule a phone call/consulation with the veterinarian who developed these supplements. I really think it is a great company.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

road kill said:


> Has anyone ever heard of this product?
> Used it?
> 
> Any opinions?
> ...


Haven't used this one, but have used "Rescue Remedy" to help with a thunder-phobic dog. It helped some.

I also know of a noisy dog (not my noisy dog) that was helped by taking "Calms Forte" before training/trialing


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

FinnLandR said:


> Would it help in getting a dog to calm down between the truck and the last holding blind?


That is what I would like to know and if it will keep them calm enough not to break on honor


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I tried Benatyl and it did nothing for her. She gets so worked up at a hunt test I never know if she will stay put or not. If she sits she does well in a master test, but last week broke on honor.


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## Bill Stoune (Jul 18, 2011)

I would add that if you are going to try Calm Shen you need to try it for at least 6-8 weeks. It takes that long to work through their systems. They did tell me that some people saw a difference quickly, but some need the whole 8 weeks to notice a change.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Bill Stoune said:


> I would add that if you are going to try Calm Shen you need to try it for at least 6-8 weeks. It takes that long to work through their systems. They did tell me that some people saw a difference quickly, but some need the whole 8 weeks to notice a change.


The Calms Forte did seem to help with holding blind excitement and also helped to generally take the edge off an overly excited dog. It took a week or so to begin to make a difference with the dog in our group (as I recall).


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

FinnLandR said:


> Would it help in getting a dog to calm down between the truck and the last holding blind?


Ya. Will it make my dog walk normally(on 4 legs not 2) from the last holding blind to the line?

I may invest if so.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

jeff t. said:


> Haven't used this one, but have used "Rescue Remedy" to help with a thunder-phobic dog. It helped some.
> 
> I also know of a noisy dog (not my noisy dog) that was helped by taking "Calms Forte" before training/trialing





FinnLandR said:


> Would it help in getting a dog to calm down between the truck and the last holding blind?


I use rescue remedy as well. It helps before a test. My oldest girl will whine and actually shake with anticipation....to the point where she has been so excited she didnt focus as she needed to. A good airing the night before and a couple drops of the rescue remedy has not hurt anything and seem to take the edge off of the anxiousness enough to help where she and I both needed it to.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

First observation, GOOD STUFF!


Let me know if you want details.
Maybe this should be moved to product reviews.
I'd still like to know what YOUR experience is/was with this.

Thanks,


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

I'm going to give this stuff a shot and see what it will do. Our very talented yellowdog went absolutely ape feces on the middle bird of a water triple training set up and had to be physically moved to the enxt bird so he could see the mark. He was fine on the land set up in the morning and focused pretty well. The difference? The benadryl wore off. :roll:

I love the hell out of this dog. His drive is off the charts, and he has a wonderful personality. The dog is absolutely stone obedient, but he comes unglued at times. I need something to improve his focus.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

road kill said:


> First observation, GOOD STUFF!
> 
> 
> Let me know if you want details.
> ...


Please provide details. Why did you start giving this and what have you noticed since?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Mike Boufford said:


> I'm going to give this stuff a shot and see what it will do. Our very talented yellowdog went absolutely ape feces on the middle bird of a water triple training set up and had to be physically moved to the enxt bird so he could see the mark. He was fine on the land set up in the morning and focused pretty well. The difference? The benadryl wore off. :roll:
> 
> I love the hell out of this dog. His drive is off the charts, and he has a wonderful personality. The dog is absolutely stone obedient, but he comes unglued at times. I need something to improve his focus.


FWIW---There was a noticeable difference in anxiety.
FOCUS seemed dramatically improved.
The external stuff seemed to vanish to him.
Absolutely NO loss of desire, attitude or athleticism.

I was almost in tears.
There are some people that are on this site that saw it last night.
Clearly an improvement at the line.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

road kill said:


> FWIW---There was a noticeable difference in anxiety.
> FOCUS seemed dramatically improved.
> The external stuff seemed to vanish to him.
> Absolutely NO loss of desire, attitude or athleticism.
> ...


Stan, 

How long did you give the product before you noticed a difference in behavior?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

road kill said:


> .........was almost in tears.
> There are some people that are on this site that saw it last night.
> Clearly an improvement at the line.


 
that is so very cool! You have had a long row, with your pup.


.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Mike Tome said:


> Stan,
> 
> How long did you give the product before you noticed a difference in behavior?


2 days.
I did not give the full dose.
I gave 3 tablets at mid day 2 days in a row.
All I needed was a little more *focus*, and forget the distractions.
And that is what I got.
(they did claim it can take up to 6 weeks, this is just what we got)

We train hard, he knows what to do.
But when there is gunfire, DUCKS, other dogs, smells etc, his mind tries to take all of that in and his mind wanders.
Yesterday (the first day of training with those distractions) he was dialed in.

Frankly, it may have been the most solid run he has ever had!

In no way did he seem drugged or down.
He actually seemed happier.

I think this is directly related to anxiety, not poor training or lack of talent.
I believe this helps remove the anxiety which I also believe is primarily hereditary.

I could be wrong.
( and most likely I am)

But this is one more piece to this perplexing puzzle.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

Where did you purchase this product?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> Where did you purchase this product?


Look at the link, then you can search distributors in your area.

http://www.herbsmithinc.com/Home/Canine/default.asp


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

grassyass.

sweet there a distributor right in town!


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Micah Duffy said:


> I use rescue remedy as well. It helps before a test. My oldest girl will whine and actually shake with anticipation....to the point where she has been so excited she didnt focus as she needed to. A good airing the night before and a couple drops of the rescue remedy has not hurt anything and seem to take the edge off of the anxiousness enough to help where she and I both needed it to.


I fast does this work and how long and where do I buy it. My girl is calm at home so I do not need or want to give her somehting all the time, just at hunt test. She hate a lead but walks fine off lead, but it is when the birds start flying that she way to excited. Just need to knock the edge off to keep her focused.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

road kill said:


> 2 days.
> I did not give the full dose.
> I gave 3 tablets at mid day 2 days in a row.
> All I needed was a little more *focus*, and forget the distractions.
> ...


This is what I am hoping for as well. It's really not the sights, sounds and smells per se but the berzerk way in which he has approached multiples. I also believe that there is a strong amount of anxiety over retrieving, and I believe that his noodle is working overtime trying to process it all. Performance anxiety?

He even does this on blinds. Many people have watched him let out a bonzai scream when he takes off. He takes off with great enthusiasm and runs to the blind at a full out gallop, and returns the same way. He knows how to line up, but he sometimes bounces his head all over the place trying to convince himself that I'm right.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

This is wonderful! Now, like the racehorse business, we are going to use drugs instead of sound breeding practices. Just buy some pot and blow em a charge.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Given the present focus of RTF, I will attempt to be tactful on this topic. 

Many years ago, I was racing harness horses for a living. We had one horse that was just too "wound up" to rate which resulted in having the lead for the first half of the mile and "spitting the bit" at the finish. Trying to restrain him (rate) shut off normal oxygen supply. At that time it was legal to give almost *any "medication"* to a horse five days before a race. This just happened to be the correct timeline for elephant tranquilizer to "begin" wearing off. Needless to say, he won a few races using it. The "under the radar" comments at that time in the business revolved around "It is NOT who has the best trainer....but which trainer has the best vet." 

Of course testing techniques and rules have tightened up quite a bit since then. I've had enough "tiller time" with high anxiety retrievers to last me a lifetime and have on occasion looked long and hard at the equine calming products on the Farm & Fleet shelves. I've even had conversations with friends who have attempted to medicate their dog to a get that next needed pass (with mixed results). 

So I ask only as a devils advocate if maybe when AKC issues title letters before or after a retriever's name they might look more like this MH*, HRCH* or FC*. And don't think for a moment I have not been tempted to look up this newest "quieter". It sure looks tempting, but then again... .


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

duk4me said:


> This is wonderful! Now, like the racehorse business, we are going to use drugs instead of sound breeding practices. Just buy some pot and blow em a charge.


Yeah, that's what it is.
I knew it was just a matter of time.

It might be worth while to do some research before casting a judgement......or not.



> *Ingredients:*
> Raw Rehmannia Root (sheng di huang)
> Actions: Enriches kidney yin, clears heat, and nourishes blood.
> 
> ...


As you can see, there are NO pharmaceuticals in this product.

I will no longer try to defend this approach, I will abide by the assumptions that our training methods are inadequate and weak.
I have made a decision that has apparently affected the well being of the dog as well as an improved demeanor.
He is clearly happier, and that alone makes this a good choice for us.

I am having this dog neutered, so as to make sure the *anxiety* issue does not go on from him.


Thanks,


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

road kill said:


> Yeah, that's what it is.
> I knew it was just a matter of time.
> 
> It might be worth while to do some research before casting a judgement......or not.
> ...


Your welcome,

Ridalyn regards,


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## Lee Jones (Mar 19, 2011)

I thinks Barry Bonds and Mark Mcguire may be able to give some insight...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

There are a number of herbal calming products on the market. I used some with my now 14 yo MH. He had a tendency to break for no reason and always builded by the 3rd series. He would even break on a dead bird by the 3rd series. It helped. He is like that-has to be out the door first and now he gets run over. He never did it at FT.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

duk4me said:


> This is wonderful! Now, like the racehorse business, we are going to use drugs instead of sound breeding practices. Just buy some pot and blow em a charge.


so I have a poorly bred dog? too much drive?? Please explain you though process. thanks

DS


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> so I have a poorly bred dog? too much drive?? Please explain you though process. thanks
> 
> DS


Hey I just explained another herbal alternative. Don't know you or your dogs breeding but if you have to depend on supplements to get your dog to do the work, well perhaps you need to do a little more work with your dog.

Also if you have to use a calming agent for you dog to do the work perhaps your dog shouldn't be bred. Sorry just opinion. Nothing personal.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

do you have any herbal alternative pot I could purchase??


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> do you have any herbal alternative pot I could purchase??


lol, Nah can't do it gave it up years ago. You might want to check with some of our left coast RTFers for some medicinal pot. I hear their dogs are really mellow.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

well for my non-intact, non-trial running dog that suffers from separation anxiety I think I'll give this a try. he becomes a beast when I close the crate door on him and leave. I'd swear he is possesed!


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

KwickLabs said:


> So I ask only as a devils advocate if maybe when AKC issues title letters before or after a retriever's name they might look more like this MH*, HRCH* or FC*. And don't think for a moment I have not been tempted to look up this newest "quieter". It sure looks tempting, but then again... .


I would agree that pharmaceuticals are not the answer; I certainly do not want a drugged up dog. Doggie downers might well result in injury or a drowned doggie. What I do want is a dog which can focus on the task at hand, and one which maintains clarity of mind. Anyone who has ever been on a pain med knows the fogginess which comes with those things. 

Some of this anxiety might very well be my fault. Perhaps I was taking an immature dog too far too fast for his own mental well being. He was introduced to live shot pheasants at 10 months of age. I'm not talking onesy twosey here either, I'm talking tower shoot quantities. I was also running this pup on long marks and even longer blinds early in his second year. By all that I observed, he was able to take the work and did so with great enthusiasm. But as we progressed toward his HRCH title, things began to change. He was growing vocal; he was getting antsy at the line; he was spending too much energy focusing on the wrong things which ultimately led to what I now believe are anxiety issues. 

Is this a problem with his breeding, or with a DAH? While he did come to us as a talker, I'm more inclined to think the latter ilo the former.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Mike Boufford said:


> I would agree that pharmaceuticals are not the answer; I certainly do not want a drugged up dog. Doggie downers might well result in injury or a drowned doggie. What I do want is a dog which can focus on the task at hand, and one which maintains clarity of mind. Anyone who has ever been on a pain med knows the fogginess which comes with those things.
> 
> Some of this anxiety might very well be my fault. Perhaps I was taking an immature dog too far too fast for his own mental well being. He was introduced to live shot pheasants at 10 months of age. I'm not talking onesy twosey here either, I'm talking tower shoot quantities. I was also running this pup on long marks and even longer blinds early in his second year. By all that I observed, he was able to take the work and did so with great enthusiasm. But as we progressed toward his HRCH title, things began to change. He was growing vocal; he was getting antsy at the line; he was spending too much energy focusing on the wrong things which ultimately led to what I now believe are anxiety issues.
> 
> Is this a problem with his breeding, or with a DAH? While he did come to us as a talker, I'm more inclined to think the latter ilo the former.


Mike,
This is much the same scenrio we have lived.
In addition to running an AKC SH test at 11 months and having the Honor dog break on my dogs shot flyer in the water double.
That was where is came apart.

He has improved dramatically from then.

If just the slightest edge or thread of the anxiety can be lessened, both he and I will be happier.
If he is in the ANXIOUS state, then running him is all but useless.
If he is not, we both can have a much more pleasant experience.

Is this anxiety due to my failings or hereditary??
Let's say it is 100% due to my failings.

Who cares, it is what it is.
I love him, and he and I both are happier.

And does he look like he is on steroids???

I'll just live with the funny cheap shots from people that do not know him, me or his pedigree.

PEACE!!!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

We have a dog that is by Cosmo out of an FC/AFC bitch. Sweetest dog in the world but he is deathly afraid of thunderstorms. We have tried a number of supplements as well as a thundershirt, which does help but doesn't reduce his anxiety. Bad breeding or not, I will continue to try anything that might alleviate his anxiety--he is part of our family and it pains us to see him suffer during our frequent thunder storms. I have some ordered from Amazon but notice a place near me that carries it so I will drop by tonight and pick some up to give it a try. 

I appreciate everyone posting their experiences with this and other similar products.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Karen Klotthor said:


> I fast does this work and how long and where do I buy it. My girl is calm at home so I do not need or want to give her somehting all the time, just at hunt test. She hate a lead but walks fine off lead, but it is when the birds start flying that she way to excited. Just need to knock the edge off to keep her focused.


You can buy it at a lot of Heath food or organic food stores. Also online. Its made by a company called Bach. Do a search and from the website they will list local distributors by your zipcode to find a retailer close to you.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> do you have any herbal alternative pot I could purchase??


Here you go! 

http://www.herbalsmokeshack.com/


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

How does it work on people? I'm the stressed out one at test. I'm sure it is because I'm from bad stock.

Terri


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

road kill said:


> Mike,
> This is much the same scenrio we have lived.
> In addition to running an AKC SH test at 11 months and having the Honor dog break on my dogs shot flyer in the water double.
> That was where is came apart.
> ...


Actually his shoulders do look quite wide Stan. Has Elvis been lifting weights?

Actually the composition of virtually all Pharms come from natural sources and are later synthesised. sp. But hey you and Elvis enjoy your herbs.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

sounds like someone is majorly anti-"herbs". who cares? is it really that big of a deal?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Terri said:


> How does it work on people? I'm the stressed out one at test. I'm sure it is because I'm from bad stock.
> 
> Terri


Who said anything about coming from bad stock? Bad stock shouldn't be reproduced is all I said. Is that not true?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> sounds like someone is majorly anti-"herbs". who cares? is it really that big of a deal?


Yes Daniel it is that big a deal. Let me ask you a question. If you had very limited resources and could only afford one puppy. Your decision came to two litters. Both litters are MH X MH and the same price. 

Both litters are similarly bred but for some reason you love the looks of the sire of one of the litters. You just had to have that sires puppy. Would you be disappointed to learn after your purchase that the sire only got his MH after he had a few herbs or worse human drugs?

Now lets make it real to you. You mentioned earlier in this thread your dog is possessed post #36, and no I never questioned your dog being poorly bred, if you found out that the sire of your pup had actually been medicated to achieve his MH would you be upset?

RK I apoligize this is not a shot at you. This actually is a shot at cheaters. People who are only interested in a profit on dogs at the expense of others. I know you are not one of those.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Micah Duffy said:


> You can buy it at a lot of Heath food or organic food stores. Also online. Its made by a company called Bach. Do a search and from the website they will list local distributors by your zipcode to find a retailer close to you.


I did thanks, They are no longer handling the Herbsmith brand but something that works the same way . It is by Pet Naturals and is simply name calming. I was able to pick up some at the lunch time form a local all natural pet store. I also talked to someone there that has used it for Show with good results. I will try it this weekend and let everyone know if it works. I will be running master with my crack head girl . And if anyone wants to know, she has a wonderful breeding in her lines . Already has her HRCH and 2 more passes for her Master. But she loves this too much and has trouble honor other dogs. And for the one that questioned training, she is great in training and calm.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Who said anything about coming from bad stock? Bad stock shouldn't be reproduced is all I said. Is that not true?


My comments are not directed at you. I was just stated that I get nervous at hunt test, not nervous at other times, it must be the guns. At times I thing I make my dog nervous at the line. She does not like to sit too close to me. The nerves go down the leash to the dog is what I have been told. If any one needs calming it would be me, not the dog. 

The family joke is that all weakness or short comings are brought on by thinks out of our control- Blame the parents (bad stock).

This part is directed to you:
As to your question about bad stock should not reproduce: I already did. 
Terri


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Terri said:


> My comments are not directed at you. I was just stated that I get nervous at hunt test, not nervous at other times, it must be the guns. At times I thing I make my dog nervous at the line. She does not like to sit too close to me. The nerves go down the leash to the dog is what I have been told. If any one needs calming it would be me, not the dog.
> 
> The family joke is that all weakness or short comings are brought on by thinks out of our control- Blame the parents (bad stock).
> 
> ...


Its ok I'm neutered so at least the worst of society won't be reproduced.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Its ok I'm neutered so at least the worst of society won't be reproduced.


Too funny.

Terri


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

If you are using a substance to affect a change in your dog's behavior it matters not if it comes from a pharmacy or an herbalist. If my dog were suffering from anxiety I would be looking for the best medicine possible after a discussion with my vet. I can not tell you how many times I have had pros or experienced Ams suggest medicating Indy. But I can look at that dog and know for sure he is not anxious, worried or disturbed. He is wild to retrieve, but he is quite happy about it. So I have always felt that medicating him would be a cheat. Even if its perfectly legal, I would feel that way. So we struggle on and I enjoy him for what and who he is. 

All that aside, there is no way I would give my dog some kind of meds from a company that describes one of its ingredients as "tonifying" the heart!;-);-)


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## okie drake (Dec 5, 2011)

Travis Schneider said:


> I had to do a google search on it...I'd never heard of it.
> 
> http://www.herbsmithinc.com/Home/Canine/Herbs/CalmShen/default.asp
> 
> No experience with it, but I know of a few people I'd like to try this out on. I guess that's why they make Prozac.


From that link:

Lots of 'tonifiying', enriching yin, and clearing heat....

Then this:
_Platycodon (jie geng)_
_Actions: Conducts the actions of the other herbs upward to the heart spirit._

Goodness...


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Terri said:


> My comments are not directed at you. I was just stated that I get nervous at hunt test, not nervous at other times, it must be the guns. At times I thing I make my dog nervous at the line. She does not like to sit too close to me. The nerves go down the leash to the dog is what I have been told. If any one needs calming it would be me, not the dog.
> 
> The family joke is that all weakness or short comings are brought on by thinks out of our control- Blame the parents (bad stock).
> 
> ...


A little CHAW helps me relax.
Since I can't smoke a cigar at the line.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2012)

Interesting,
Some may say this is cheating,others may not.
Some might say train you dog, don't drug your dog.
Personally i could not step to the line with my head held high.
The ribbons or applause would seem somewhat deluted to me.

I wonder what judges think of this. If you knew a dog was on behavior altering "drugs", would you judge them accordingly?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

So, if your dog has arthritic issue, you would not give chondroitin or glucasamine?
Or Deramaxx or Rymadil etc??

Just run him in pain?

Or, is that different?

BTW--based on what I am hearing via different media, I am not the Lone Ranger here.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

road kill said:


> So, if your dog has arthritic issue, you would not give chondroitin or glucasamine?
> Or Deramaxx or Rymadil etc??
> 
> Just run him in pain?
> ...


Yes that is different. Never heard of a dog failing for being slow but a breaking dog yes that is a failure.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

road kill said:


> A little CHAW helps me relax.
> Since I can't smoke a cigar at the line.


I know you guys can get away with chewing, but I'm not sure if most would have favorable feels towards a gal with a mouth full of chew. I'll discuss it with my husband tonight, but I'm not holding my breathe. 


Terri


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I wonder how many handlers need the use of anti anxiety/depression medication just to cope with the stresses of daily life.....as a frequent visitor to the herbal supplement aisle at Whole Foods, I see no problem with using the product..probably a few people on here could use a similar product for human consumption

Whats the difference in the products we use for arthritic dogs


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Yes that is different. Never heard of a dog failing for being slow but a breaking dog yes that is a failure.


So you feel YOU get to decide which DRUGS are OK and which HERBS are not?

I actually think I understand where you are coming from, completely.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

2tall said:


> If you are using a substance to affect a change in your dog's behavior it matters not if it comes from a pharmacy or an herbalist. If my dog were suffering from anxiety I would be looking for the best medicine possible after a discussion with my vet. I can not tell you how many times I have had pros or experienced Ams suggest medicating Indy. But I can look at that dog and know for sure he is not anxious, worried or disturbed. He is wild to retrieve, but he is quite happy about it. So I have always felt that medicating him would be a cheat. Even if its perfectly legal, I would feel that way. So we struggle on and I enjoy him for what and who he is.
> 
> All that aside, there is no way I would give my dog some kind of meds from a company that describes one of its ingredients as "tonifying" the heart!;-);-)



Focusing solely on this issue from a training (not testing or trialing) perspective, if an herb or drug helps the dog to be more receptive to training, what is the harm? If one of these products helps the dog to break the behavior chain that results in over excitement, thus helping the dog to learn a new behavior (i.e. calmness)...and if that behavior can be maintained as the product dosage is reduced or eliminated...it seems like a valid training tool to me.

As far as competition is concerned, how is this different than any other drug (e.g. rimadyl, deramaxx, etc) or supplement which is commonly given to sore dogs to help them to continue to compete without pain, thus improving their performance?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I have seen Herbsmith products at my vet and I trust her. They get high at trials. It just takes them down a notch so they are more focused into the handler being there. They don't know that they are creeping 15 feet when they do. In their mind they are sitting but they are totally self employed. It helps them remember you are part of the team.


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## okie drake (Dec 5, 2011)

Not being involved like many of you are, this would just be an outside opinion but I'd bet where such things are headed is towards testing on the dogs for 'banned' substances.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

can of worms = opened!


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Yes Daniel it is that big a deal. Let me ask you a question. If you had very limited resources and could only afford one puppy. Your decision came to two litters. Both litters are MH X MH and the same price.
> 
> Both litters are similarly bred but for some reason you love the looks of the sire of one of the litters. You just had to have that sires puppy. Would you be disappointed to learn after your purchase that the sire only got his MH after he had a few herbs or worse human drugs?



This comparison is overly simplistic because it doesn't take pedigree into account nor does it take performance into account. Conversely, would anyone want a pup which came from an MH sire or dam which took 35 or more tests to get the requisite number of passes to get the title? Is that a training issue or is it a talent issue with the dog?


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Frankly, I think this thread/topic has a great deal of value. We live in times where medication is often a useful alternative. For example, in the last few years, there seems to be a large number of people that can't seem to function at a high level for five hours unless........ 

When someone asks me if I want coffee and I say "No, I don't drink coffee." The next response is almost always a disbelieving "Never?" There are doctors whose only business is writing prescriptions. We now seem to have medications for almost everything and it is often very scary to read the possible side-effects lists. It's become socially more acceptable to medicate because it is often effective. To repeat, everyone wants to be comfortable. "Easier" has become a passionately sought right and humans are becoming very clever at working toward that end. 

I did not post to judge anyone. We all have choices and they are often complicated. My reasons for posting were to suggest maybe a little more thought about the road we are traveling down. The position of my post is impacted greatly by being 72 years old. A study of sociology would explain why I say what I believe. Some might say being old is an anchor stuck in the mud. Then again, times change and it's apparently never going to become easier.

I believe chemicals are becoming the socially acceptable method of coping with complications. 

On a side-note, my old freshman high school English teacher is probably smiling from her grave at the use of alliteration in the last sentence. 
__________________


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

duk4me said:


> This is wonderful! Now, like the racehorse business, we are going to use drugs instead of sound breeding practices. Just buy some pot and blow em a charge.


I am right there with you, not saying everyone on here doesn't train OB well enough - there are many that know my dog about crawls out of her skin when it is go time, but I myself am not going to be using any meds on her unless it is prescribed by a vet.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

road kill said:


> So you feel YOU get to decide which DRUGS are OK and which HERBS are not?
> 
> I actually think I understand where you are coming from, completely.



Are you sure you understand where he is coming from? He is stating that letting your dog be pain free is ok, giving him/her glucosamine chondriton does not change their behavior- I have seen injured dogs try to run around and play with other dogs, a herbal drug that talks about "Tonifying" on its label is not exactly what I could call a pain reliever. It is like comparing Tylenol to Weed. Big Difference


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

okie drake said:


> Not being involved like many of you are, this would just be an outside opinion but I'd bet where such things are headed is towards testing on the dogs for 'banned' substances.


so who is going to have to submit to a urine sample first....Me or Brig, because if you give me a diet Dr. Pepper I can complete the testing within a couple of minutes...Brig will wizzz within sixty seconds of being let out of the truck, but I sure as heck aint collecting a sample


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## WI_LabLover (Aug 30, 2004)

KwickLabs said:


> Frankly, I think this thread/topic has a great deal of value. We live in times where medication is often a useful alternative. For example, in the last few years, there seems to be a large number of people that can't seem to function at a high level for five hours unless........
> 
> When someone asks me if I want coffee and I say "No, I don't drink coffee." The next response is almost always a disbelieving "Never?" There are doctors whose only business is writing prescriptions. We now seem to have medications for almost everything and it is often very scary to read the possible side-effects lists. It's become socially more acceptable to medicate because it is often effective. To repeat, everyone wants to be comfortable. "Easier" has become a passionately sought right and humans are becoming very clever at working toward that end.
> 
> ...


Good post Jim! You seem very relaxed and coherent. What are you on?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

WI_LabLover said:


> Good post Jim! You seem very relaxed and coherent. What are you on?



HaHa! I love it! Yes, Jim's post was great. Nothing judgmental here, just expressing our own ideas and choices.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

::::sigh:::::
I dealt with this for decades while showing horses. We called it "Better training via chemistry."
Doesn't matter if it's herbal or not, it's cheating in my book. Maybe it's time to rethink what is asked of the dogs if they need a calmer to not come apart while testing or trialing.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Seriously? 
We are not talking about Ace, or some of the other stuff I see at horse shows every weekend.
We are talking about Chinese herbs. Seriously. That have been around since the beginning of time,that when used correctly and with knowledge can help everything from depression to hormone problems to hemangiosarcoma? That help the horse that paces in the pasture keep calm so we can keep weight on him? or the one that stuck a stick in his shoulder and has a drain heal faster?
It is no different from drinking a coke to stay awake, or taking herbs to help my cold go away faster, and I can still sleep.
Seriously. This is something you may or not believe in, but it is not something that will hide a true problem. If used incorrectly, it won't help. If used correctly, it may or may not help. They helped my dog who has an eye/middle ear/nerve issue. They kept my old dog around for extra time, and helped a friends GSD stick around a few months. Acupuncture and herbs are a much better way than using some of the "legal" drugs for some of us that want to go that route first.
I am so sorry, But I think if we do anything testing the dogs who would be cripples running every weekend w/o some sort of NSAID would be where I would start, or the ones that can't walk the Monday after a trial. Just sayin.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Seriously. The drug testing used at USEF horse shows covers all sorts of herbals as well as chemicals. Give your horse a sip of any caffienated soda...or a piece of licorice...and it will show up on a test and get you fined and/or suspended. Plus, therapeutic meds are allowed at specific levels, providing a form is filled out with the nsaid declared. 
This is what has evolved in show horses over a long time, starting with the same thought process as discussed in this thread...just a little to take the edge off. (And there are still folks who routinely give acepromazine before fox hunting and believe it's fine.) It's a slippery slope. And one that, at least in my mind, requires disclosure in any dogs used for breeding.
A final thought: it is possible that some dogs may not be cut out for competition


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Something else I wonder about....is it possible that a handler may felt more relaxed by believing the dog is "herbalized" and will be calm....so the handler doesn't feed nervousness to the dog as much? Just a thought..


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> Something else I wonder about....is it possible that a handler may felt more relaxed by believing the dog is "herbalized" and will be calm....so the handler doesn't feed nervousness to the dog as much? Just a thought..


 

wow, now that is kinda deep.
like when a dog runs better for the calm pro than the nervous owner?
and folk think it is 'cause of the training but it can be the energy given off? If the owner thinks the dog is better and the dog feeds off of that good feeling so it does better? hmmm?


.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Something else I wonder about....is it possible that a handler may felt more relaxed by believing the dog is "herbalized" and will be calm....so the handler doesn't feed nervousness to the dog as much? Just a thought..


I think there is a lot to be said about this.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

> like when a dog runs better for the calm pro than the nervous owner?
> and folk think it is 'cause of the training but it can be the energy given off? If the owner thinks the dog is better and the dog feeds off of that good feeling so it does better? hmmm?


Yep! Have you ever read That Winning Feeling? One of the best book written by Jame savoie? Whose name I just butchered, but now she sends out a message that often talks about mind over matter, especially in competition.

However, the herbs we use are sold through a vet are legal, and work. And Again, maybe if you believe it works it does


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Just another thought...marijuana is a herb too...as is opium. Maybe for the handler instead of the dog?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Hey! I live in a state with a "medical marijuana" program. Do ya think that would help me with Indy?

All kidding aside, none of us should be so judgmental about what others do with their dog as long it does not involve cruelty or risk to the dog. I choose not to use a "calming" agent, pharma or herbal to deal with my dog's issues. But I DO use Adequan, one of the nutriceuticals (sp?), to enable another one of my dogs to live a normal life with an abnormal hip.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

this thread is a kick! i now know which rtf'ers voted for barry, mark and roger on the first ballot.....and who didn't.

when i was a kid there was a "drug store" in every town. now there is a walgreens/cvs etc on every block. more sick people? no, more drugs!! it's a team sport if dogs need testing so do handlers...no herbs for the dog then no prozac/paxil/lexapro for the handler. i hear crickets chirping at the next event? 




Ken Bora said:


> wow, now that is kinda deep.
> like when a dog runs better for the calm pro than the nervous owner?
> and folk think it is 'cause of the training but it can be the energy given off? If the owner thinks the dog is better and the dog feeds off of that good feeling so it does better? hmmm?
> 
> ...


^^^^that is herbal thinking if i ever heard it.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Christine and everyone else,

I think what Tim is saying and what many people are feeling in the hunting world and home pet world, is that if the trend of breeding trial and test dogs has produced dogs so "driven" and hyper that they can't focus enough to perform, it is a breeding trend problem. And if breeders making money breeding these above mentioned dogs are drugging or herbaling them to be able to get titles so they can sell puppies, what kind of puppies will we have. How many of them will be bred by the guy or lady who is just proud of the dog's pedigree and end up with more over hyper dogs who end up in unsuspecting young pet homes and the pound?

If you are Stan, or anyone else, and you have a hyper dog you love and train with, but aren't going to breed, then great - glad you found a wonderful, natural remedy to make your dog have less anxiety! I'm guessing Stan didn't intend to end up with a super hyper ADD dog. Now he has help and can make him and his dog happy! There's nothing better. But let's admit, there is an epidemic of breeding overly anxious dogs who cannot focus on day to day life, much less a competition. A LOT of these dogs are spilling into the pet homes. I see it on a daily basis at my boarding/daycare facility. Owners are half a step away from the pound or euth. 

In summary, use the herbs if you already have one of these dogs! But don't breed the dog and don't use the herbs to help the dog title in order to make money on pups. 

Jennifer Henion


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## WI_LabLover (Aug 30, 2004)

Good post IMHO Jhenion.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks all for the input.
I had no intentions of CHEATING anyone.
I have no intentions of breeding Elvis as I see this trait as a negative thing.
I had NO idea this was coming.
I have trained relentlessly to correct this and we have made great strides.
Is it possible this is all my fault?
YES!!
Is it possible some of this is hereditary?
I've been told by several people way smarter than me that it is.
Did my actions along the way enhance this?
Without a doubt, I did!

Let's assume the pedigree is poor and the training is poor.
Does finding another piece of the puzzle for us to pass a SH or HR level test really matter to you in the over all scheme of things?

I am not going to get rid of him, I love him.
I am not going to beat on him or use theE-COLLAR and melt him into the ground.
(I have seen this too many times)
That's just not my way.

My intention is to use this homeopathic approach short term as a last piece to correct the manners/focus at the line.

The thought of "cheating" never crossed my mind.
The equating this to smoking pot never crossed my mind as I do not drink or do drugs.
(OK, maybe a cigar or 2;-))

My apologies to anyone offended by us trying this.
Thank you to all for your input.


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

That was a well thought out response Stan. You should be able to enjoy your time with Elvis , we all know they arent here long enough.


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## Robert C (Feb 23, 2010)

DoubleHaul said:


> We have a dog that is by Cosmo out of an FC/AFC bitch. Sweetest dog in the world but he is deathly afraid of thunderstorms. We have tried a number of supplements as well as a thundershirt, which does help but doesn't reduce his anxiety. Bad breeding or not, I will continue to try anything that might alleviate his anxiety--he is part of our family and it pains us to see him suffer during our frequent thunder storms. I have some ordered from Amazon but notice a place near me that carries it so I will drop by tonight and pick some up to give it a try.
> 
> I appreciate everyone posting their experiences with this and other similar products.


Try aconite. It does wonders for our six year old son. He hates nighttime thunderstorms, but after some aconite, he sleeps right through it.

YMMV


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Stan, well said. I do plan on breeding mind only to keep a pup. Her mother was calm and we breed with one that was not. We hoped for the inbetween and got all dad. When I breed her it will be with a calm dog and she will only be breed once. I do not have a breeding factory. As stated she just gets so worked up at hunt test , Is it any difference than giving a child with ADHD meds to make them focus. My grandaughter has to be on meds for this and is given only doing school time. It works wonders and it was the teacher that told my daughter she needed it, not my daughter not being able to handle her because she was hiper.


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## okie drake (Dec 5, 2011)

road kill said:


> Thanks all for the input.
> I had no intentions of CHEATING anyone.
> I have no intentions of breeding Elvis as I see this trait as a negative thing.
> I had NO idea this was coming.
> ...


As I mentioned before, I'm not involved competitively so this discussion for me is simply about interest in the topic, but I do feel qualified to comment especially on the 'drug' issue.

I think something in the above post displays what many are hinting/getting at. 'Piece of the puzzle'. Everyone's view of that will vary.

Say to you that 'piece' is xabola 'chinese herb'. Say to another it's an amphetamine like most of the human AD/ADHD drugs? Same response/view? There's countless options in between. I just bring it up to pose the question to all. 

Now add it being prescribed by a vet and thus being legal? (I'd venture a guess that we're perhaps not all that far from such but it's admittedly speculation for sake of discussion.) Change anyone's view?

Another aspect is intent vs end usage....very few if any who get their Ambien every month of the world like clockwork for the last 4 yrs started out saying their plan was to take one every single night of the world to sleep for an open-ended length of time.

Yes, substantial differences exist, just offering such for discussion/thought.

I'd also say there are substantial differences in medicating arthritic/joint issues and medicating behavior, whether it be with legal, illegal, rx, OTC, or otherwise. What precisely are they, how significant are they in any given scenario, and what are the proper implications? Good questions if you ask me.

I hadn't thought much about the subject prior to this thread but I stand by my earlier comment and predict that testing is on the horizon at some point. Same as the horse world.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Karen K. said.
> 
> 
> > Is it any different than giving a child with ADHD meds to make them focus. My grandaughter has to be on meds for this and is given only doing school time. It works wonders and it was the teacher that told my daughter she needed it, not my daughter not being able to handle her because she was hyper.


This "social" fact struck a sensitive nerve with me. We've been down that road with a few of our grandchildren. As I mentioned before there are many situations where meds are effective. Many children (and adults) need medications to be productive. The negative impact on themselves and society without medical assistance is well documented. Simply stated, legal drugs can be necessary.

The question becomes whether using a similar logic (being necessary) for making a profit off an anxiety challenged competitive horse or putting a title on the "over the top" retriever is justified. There is a difference in making an animal comfortable vs. performance enhancement. Searching for an advantage has progressed to a medical art form. 

As I mentioned before (in kind of a different way), social ethics often evolve because of needs. In my opinion, the ambitions of modern humans are not necessarily based on just being comfortable or getting by. Much of what we do is in direct competition with others. In those situations, the line between what is right or wrong is often "blurred with complications". "I am right and can do this because....." is the modern mantra.

Todays society appears to function well on offering up the token concept of "We agree to disagree". It is possible for two people with contrary opinions to both be right. Of course the legality of decisions can be drawn, but I have personally learned just how "fuzzy" that can be. 

Here's another socially acceptable and "catchy" phrase _"Do whatcha' gotta do."_


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jhenion said:


> Christine and everyone else,
> 
> I think what Tim is saying and what many people are feeling in the hunting world and home pet world, is that if the trend of breeding trial and test dogs has produced dogs so "driven" and hyper that they can't focus enough to perform, it is a breeding trend problem. And if breeders making money breeding these above mentioned dogs are drugging or herbaling them to be able to get titles so they can sell puppies, what kind of puppies will we have. How many of them will be bred by the guy or lady who is just proud of the dog's pedigree and end up with more over hyper dogs who end up in unsuspecting young pet homes and the pound?
> 
> ...


Very well said. You have done a much better job than I did. 

I have watched the erosion of sound horses due to the overuse of medication at the track and it is a sensitive subject for me.

Thanks,


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

I just picked up a bottle on my lunch break and will report back any results I see. Thanks for the recommendation Stan. 

This store also had some kibble seasoning, Duck and orange flavor, so I picked that up as well. Suppose to help with those picky eaters. A little extra flavor never hurt!


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

road kill said:


> A little CHAW helps me relax.
> Since I can't smoke a cigar at the line.


Seriously, how do you blow your dog whistle with that stuff in your mouth... Inquiring minds...


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## Kevin Nickelson (Jul 12, 2011)

Hey.. does this work on children?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, I have tried this product for a while and I am about to stop.
It calmed him a little bit, but what I have learned is, anxiety or not, he is the product of my training.

Granted it takes a bit more to control this guy.
He has some juice.
But that is the deal.
I have met someone that really knows what they are doing and the *HAMMER* has been dropped under their tutelage.

The discipline standard has been raised.
If he wants to do what he wants to do when he knows better, he pays!

So, the answer is to correct me, not calm him.

To quote Mr. Shih, *"Sit means sit!"*

No exceptions.
I just have to UP my game.
And, frankly, I need some help to do that.

Good luck to everyone fighting this battle.
It is perplexing.........


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## okie drake (Dec 5, 2011)

road kill said:


> Well, I have tried this product for a while and I am about to stop.
> It calmed him a little bit, but what I have learned is, anxiety or not, he is the product of my training.
> 
> Granted it takes a bit more to control this guy.
> ...


Good update and I commend you on getting help and being objective about the specific problem you were/are facing.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

okie drake said:


> Good update and I commend you on getting help and being objective about the specific problem you were/are facing.


What this experiment did was;

#1--Calmed him a little bit
#2--Exposed the *REAL* holes in training

That is just an honest assessment!


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

I might as well give an update as well. I will be discontinuing this as product as well. I didn’t notice any change in my dog when he started taking this and still don’t. I to, in dire hast, have come to the conclusion I need to do more focused training to build up the confidence in my dog. I came to this conclusion just last night, oddly enough. 

The dog got himself into some trouble (or I allowed him to get himself into trouble as some of you might say) and I took it out on him with very stern commands. He listened, oh he listened real well and knew how serious I was. I was able to lay him down in the living room and he would not move. Even as the neighbor kids played in the street and neighbors coming home slamming their car doors, he just laid there. I could see his level of excitement increase as someone parked their truck in the street but quickly, and sternly, corrected him. Normally he would be at the door barking his head off, running to the back of the house, running back to the door, running up to me, barking his head off. 

I will increase training and be more stern with my commands and corrections.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Funny, I had planned an update today as well. We have been giving the product only for about a week, since I ordered it only after reading about it here. Last night was our first group of serious thunder storms since then. He was noticeably less worried. The shaking was not as severe--not severe at all--and he wasn't desperate for a place to hide as he typically is. All this before I put the thundershirt on and that helped even more. I am going to stick with it in the hopes that the full course makes things improve even more.

I don't think it tastes really good though. I may go to the tablets.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Interesting updates! Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like the pill is helpful for some dogs by taking the edge off of panic, but not the ADHD cure we were hoping for for other dogs.

Nice to hear your opinions and results.

Jennifer


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

I am trying it for a female I have that goes nuts in the kennel--spinning, barking just super anxious about comings and goings.

She has been on it for a week and I have seen no change yet. I will post again at the end of the bottle.

Meredith


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

we were using the pills and I might as well finish the bottle. besides, it cost me $26 for 90 pills. I need to go out and buy a new crate tray though, another $14


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Road Kill-our theory is "Pick your battles. Be sure they are small enough to win and big enough to matter."

I have one I have to win or the dog will have to be retired. Said that another time when a little brown female had 4 master passes and needed one to title. Won the battle but the war still goes on. That was about 32 master passes ago and the demon still lives within her. It rears it's ugly head on occasions.


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