# Leave your bitches in heat at home!



## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Seems like you see it at about every trial.

Somebody brings a dog to a trial that is just going out, just coming in or all the way in heat.

A bitch in heat DIRECTLY contributed to my male dog to be dropped today in the Amateur and very much affected at least one more male dog that ran after me (he was dropped also).

Folks, you know if your bitch is still in season, so please, keep her out of competition.

If you don't think this matters, back in the old days the bitches ran AFTER the males in AA stakes.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

They're not allowed on the grounds*!*


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

Not allowed but some show up--I been Bitch checker by default- several times and always get one or two positives.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Tim West said:


> Folks, you know if your bitch is still in season, so please, keep her out of competition.


Oh, some of them know. I know this happened at one of the joliet trials, and I was shocked at who brought the bitch with (it wasn't entered). But, then proceeded to air the dog where contestants were airing theirs.... 


It's rude, and unsportsman like. I asked when my males' teeth started chattering, got a positive answer. I should have reported it, but didn't.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> It's rude, and unsportsman like. I asked when my males' teeth started chattering, got a positive answer. I should have reported it, but didn't.


You should have...until the rules are enforced no one will follow them. I learn my lesson at a hunt test a few years ago


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> You should have...until the rules are enforced no one will follow them. I learn my lesson at a hunt test a few years ago


 
That is the problem. Often times I don't even see a btich check at test and many times I have seen people with dogs that were "just on the truck". I have even complained about it before with nothing being done. I think it is a job nobody wants to take on, telling someone they must remove the dog from the grounds. This is not a shot at pros but I have heard the excuse that they have a lot of dogs on the truck and those entries are needed.... BS don't bring you bitches that are in season to the grounds


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Well here goes, I'm going to make everyone mad on this post. Train don't complain. You know you have a male dog and you know there are going to be female dogs at the test. If a female is a few days from bleeding or is out of a heat for a day, do you think males dogs are not going to pay attention. I hear people at every test complain about there had to be a dog in heat because my male dog wouldn't have done that. They are males, if a female that isn't in heat pees they are going to check it out. Did I mention they are males, now if a dog is in Heat and Caught on the grounds I believe the whole truck should be disqualified. I wouldn't just blame this on pro's because the weekend warroirs will do this also, some not knowing and some that don't care.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Well here goes, I'm going to make everyone mad on this post. Train don't complain. You know you have a male dog and you know there are going to be female dogs at the test. If a female is a few days from bleeding or is out of a heat for a day, do you think males dogs are not going to pay attention. I hear people at every test complain about there had to be a dog in heat because my male dog wouldn't have done that. They are males, if a female that isn't in heat pees they are going to check it out. Did I mention they are males, now if a dog is in Heat and Caught on the grounds I believe the whole truck should be disqualified. I wouldn't just blame this on pro's because the weekend warroirs will do this also, some not knowing and some that don't care.


Doesn't matter who does it...but more than likely it will be a pro on the road because they don't have any place to leave them.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

So its raining out , lady at the JH runs under a well known RTF er ,and when dog finally returns with the bird , judge stops everything , because the lady handler's yellow boots are now covered in blood . Checking for cuts ,nothing , then it becomes obvious , she is well in season . Woman claims ignorance , and we pretty much all agreed she was ignorant .
Another time took a bitch to be bred with National winner ,and was meeting the handler/owner at a trial between our houses. He was POed that I wouldn't come on the grounds to meet him , so he never showed up at the hotel where he was staying to meet me until after he went to dinner .And he told me he didn't know what my problem was , he had another bitch in season on the truck .Guess that time I was ignorant .........


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Well here goes, I'm going to make everyone mad on this post. Train don't complain. You know you have a male dog and you know there are going to be female dogs at the test. If a female is a few days from bleeding or is out of a heat for a day, do you think males dogs are not going to pay attention. I hear people at every test complain about there had to be a dog in heat because my male dog wouldn't have done that. They are males, if a female that isn't in heat pees they are going to check it out. Did I mention they are males, now if a dog is in Heat and Caught on the grounds I believe the whole truck should be disqualified. I wouldn't just blame this on pro's because the weekend warroirs will do this also, some not knowing and some that don't care.


So are you suggesting that the weekend warrior who only has a male dog should get a female just so they can get use to it??? Not everyone has the benifit of having a female around during training and even when you do some males learn to deal with it while other NEVER do. I have two males that are the same age and have been trainined exactly the same (I also have btiches) one will get excited of course but has no problem working through a bitch around and the other still looses his freaking mind. What do you suggest I do with that dog? Should I just shock the crap out of him to teatch him to deal with it? Should I have a nice talk with him? What? Help me out becasue over the years (way too many now) I have seen that some males learn to deal with it and other will not ever learn to deal with it so if you could share you training method for solving this problem please do so. Until then leave your bithc in heat or close or just gone out at home. Rules say no bitches in heat allowed ON THE GROUNDS. 
BTW- I said it was not a shot at the pros, but as Patrick pointed out they usually are the ones in my experiance that do exactly as Patrick says, they have them on the truck and no place to leave them. Ever once in a while I see a non pro who knowingly or unknowingly does it. Just the nature of the business, but their business should not affect everyone else.
Leave them home


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I think all females should be excluded from running trials and tests because they can and do come in season at the most inoppertune time.

No one likes to see their dog eating the dirt at the line while the guns are going off.,,,,but if we always brag high prey drive then we need to prove it at the line.
Give me a dog that can win a trial and breed in the same weekend.
After all aren't we looking for the super dog at a field trial. We all want a fighter and a lover You know can your dog think with the right head at the right time.

I have a male that jumps on anything that moves ,,,I consider it a challenge to keep him thinking straight.

I do believe the hunting dog sports are the only dog venue prohibiting bitches running in season.
I see both sides so

No opinion either way regards

Pete


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

This in no way excuses it, but I know a few amateur trainers on the road with their dog truck training away from home with the dogs living on the truck. Bitch comes in season and they have nowhere to put the dog when it comes into heat and they just bring the dog along to training and trials. Ticks their training partners off also, but they continue to do it.
In HRC we have bitch checks for all females running. Never saw that at an AKC event. It's not a foolproof solution, but it helps.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Flowageboy said:


> This in no way excuses it, but I know many trainers on the road with their dog truck training away from home with the dogs living on the truck. Bitch comes in season and they have nowhere to put the dog when it comes into heat and they just bring the dog along to training and trials. Ticks their training partners off also, but they continue to do it.
> In HRC we have bitch checks for all females running. Never saw that at an AKC event.


 
The point is they COULD find a place to leave the dog. They are getting paid for having the dog on the truck and most kennels charge what $20/day to board them. Pick up the phone book, or call a buddy or even the people running the test or trail and as for a reccomendation for a boarding facility, get off the wallet and spend the $60 for three days. What are most people getting per week? Low end $150 so I don't think it is really a bad option for them but they won't do it because it generally does not affect the dog son THEIR truck since they are around it 24/7. Who it does affect and cost much mor than $60 is the person who does not have the oppertunity to train around bitches in heat.
I don't do FT's so if Pete wants to find that super dog good for him. HT are looking for a standard and I can't find it anywhere in the rules that part of the standard is being able to work with a bitch in heat around. What I can find it that no bitches in season are allowed on the grounds. Seems to me somebody must have felt pretty strongly about this topic when the rules were written or they would have included allowing them to run in the rules. FWIW- I would not hunt with someone who had a bithc in heat nor would I hunt one of my bitches in heat unless she was the only dog there or other females, but I sure would not ruin someone elses hunt because I was so self centered that I felt it was their problem because THEIR stupid male could not deal with it rather than my problem becasue my dog was in heat.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

badbullgator are you a male or a female, do they have to be in heat to get us excited. I've got a male dog that no matter if they are in heat or not, he gets excited when females pee. The only way you can fix that problem is run male or female only test but what if your male is gay. I just learn to live with it and let him row around at every holding blind, just wasn't worth fighting. He got his GRHRCH/MH before 4 years old, so like I said train don't complain. Now if you are saying that a female on a truck that is not running is a problem then man that's a great excuse. Everytime time one of my males mess up and smell something I going to say it's got to be a female on someones truck. What about test that are run close to neighborhoods, we need to go house to house and make sure every female within a mile radius needs to be put up.


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## brlcon1 (Apr 24, 2006)

I'm all for the train don't complain thing ! I'm also all for the leave the bitch in heat at home RULE !!!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Some females give off scent prior to going into heat so no one can prevent that. I use a neutered previous stud as my detector to alert me someone is coming into heat. That being said, I have run into more female scent at HT than ever at FT. My very first Master the dog trailed to the line. I just learned not to let them get a nose full in the holding blind and train them to keep their heads up in walk-ups. If bitches are in season, I make them run after them in training. I would rather deal with a male and scent any day than a female and all their hormonal problems and scratching tests. It is rude to bring females in heat to a trial grounds and the rules should be followed, but the problems occur usually in the blinds and at the line. If a male is going nuts and there is a non-running bitch in heat in a truck parked way off to the side, IMHO males should be able to perform.


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> The point is they COULD find a place to leave the dog. They are getting paid for having the dog on the truck and most kennels charge what $20/day to board them. Pick up the phone book, or call a buddy or even the people running the test or trail and as for a reccomendation for a boarding facility, get off the wallet and spend the $60 for three days. What are most people getting per week? Low end $150 so I don't think it is really a bad option for them but they won't do it because it generally does not affect the dog son THEIR truck since they are around it 24/7. Who it does affect and cost much mor than $60 is the person who does not have the oppertunity to train around bitches in heat.
> I don't do FT's so if Pete wants to find that super dog good for him. HT are looking for a standard and I can't find it anywhere in the rules that part of the standard is being able to work with a bitch in heat around. What I can find it that no bitches in season are allowed on the grounds. Seems to me somebody must have felt pretty strongly about this topic when the rules were written or they would have included allowing them to run in the rules. FWIW- I would not hunt with someone who had a bithc in heat nor would I hunt one of my bitches in heat unless she was the only dog there or other females, but I sure would not ruin someone elses hunt because I was so self centered that I felt it was their problem because THEIR stupid male could not deal with it rather than my problem becasue my dog was in heat.


sorry....by trainers...I meant amateurs that train away from home for months at a time....and yes...they certainly could or should leave them at a boarding kennel or a vets or just not attend the event


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Corey

My point was that when you deal with dogs and gather them all on the same weekend ,,,inevidably a bitch will come in season half way through a test. I'm not for knowingly bringing a dog on grounds because the rules say you shouldn't,,,,but real life prohibits things going perfect .

I find just as many amatures bring bitches in heat on grounds as pro's by the way,,,its not a pro/amature thing.
But thats life and I think most people deal with things as honestly and best they can.

I have been to very few perfect weekends,,,bad fliers,mechanics,heat cycles you name it. 
I think it makes a better handler out of a person if they can identify and counter. People are all different,,,,,some want the ribbon,,,some want to better themselves personally with the relationship they have with the dog their running and find weeknesses they can improve on. Hell I could care less if they run me number 1 every weekend. OK well not everyweekend.



I agree with don't complain,,,, train,,,,,but I do understand and respect both views.

Pete


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I judge HRC events all over and most of the time there is a bitch check done in the morning before each test. Guess what there is always going to be someone complaining that a bitch is in season at the test. I think it's funny we use excusses because our dogs didn't do a good job. I think males that are in heat need to be left at home, because they are not interested in picking up ducks. Just sayin.


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

Last Aug 15th I ran a HT with my bitch. I was expecting her to come in season around the end of the month and knew she could be a bit early but my male dogs were not acting "funny" and everything seemed normal. Others at the test knew I was expecting her to come in soon since I had been talking a lot about my breeding plans, etc.

After running her, several approched me at varous times about male dogs doing a lot of sniffing, being distracted, etc around the line, after she had run. I told them she was expected soon, but not in yet. I'm sure several were say my bitch was in heat, the next day I left her at home since she was not scheduled to run. I suspect that there may have been another bitch in season or near, running.

She did not come into season to where she was actuallyl bleeding for another 2 weeks. What was the problem, do we need to stop running a month prior to her scheduled heat cycle, or was I ok then. I think I was ok then and would do it again. Bud


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Wanted: Bitch in heat, so I can train....wonder if Dogs Afield have them available? 

FOM


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

Okay, here’s an idea. What about using a "teaser rag" in front of the holding blinds or slightly up wind of the line and/or holding blind when you train? Not on a regular basis, mind you, but every now and then. This could provide the scent needed to teach the boy dogs to deal with it without actually having to have a bitch. 

We too will run the bitches in season first so the boys have to learn to deal with it.

I have not tried this, just trying to brain storm some possible training ideas to help people train for the inevitable bitch on the grounds scenario.

Carol


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

akblackdawg said:


> She did not come into season to where she was actuallyl bleeding for another 2 weeks. What was the problem, do we need to stop running a month prior to her scheduled heat cycle, or was I ok then. I think I was ok then and would do it again. Bud


If I suspect one of mine is even close to coming in, I'll put them on chlorophyll capsules (natural deodorizer) a few days ahead of the event as a courtesy to others. Heck, eau de bitch has even bothered a few of my girls in obedience!  Anne


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

FOM said:


> Wanted: Bitch in heat, so I can train....wonder if Dogs Afield have them available?
> 
> FOM


or inflatable bitches with a bottle of eau de Hott Bitch you could stake out?


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Carol Cassity said:


> Okay, here’s an idea. What about using a "teaser rag" in front of the holding blinds or slightly up wind of the line and/or holding blind when you train? Not on a regular basis, mind you, but every now and then. This could provide the scent needed to teach the boy dogs to deal with it without actually having to have a bitch.
> 
> We too will run the bitches in season first so the boys have to learn to deal with it.
> 
> ...


Now THERE'S a constructive post!!! How refreshing! ;-)

Some complain about problems; some look for solutions regards,

JS


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Newbie question...I've never been to a FT. 

What don't they just run bitches after the males are done?


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## DenverB2B (Feb 22, 2009)

Hey FOM. I have one, you want to pick her up at the next FT/HT. :razz:


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the MALE of any animal species has one thing on his mind besides eating...its to procreate with the FEMALE of the species...you cant out train Mother Nature


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

When we have a bitch in season during training they run first. 

When did they stop running bitches after the males in FT's? I know that the rotation wouldn't work and conditions could be an advantage for one or the other. Did I just answer the question myself?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Carol Cassity said:


> Okay, here’s an idea. What about using a "teaser rag" in front of the holding blinds or slightly up wind of the line and/or holding blind when you train? Not on a regular basis, mind you, but every now and then. This could provide the scent needed to teach the boy dogs to deal with it without actually having to have a bitch.
> 
> We too will run the bitches in season first so the boys have to learn to deal with it.
> 
> ...


mine are savy enough to know the difference. 

When it happened to me, it was an amateur, not a pro. They admitted the dog was in season and claimed they had no where to leave her. Well, that's all well and good, but couldn't you at least have the common courtesey to part well away from everyone else? But I guess if you're going to break a rule by brining them on the grounds, you don't care about that, either.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> Wanted: Bitch in heat, so I can train....wonder if Dogs Afield have them available?
> 
> FOM


There you go FOM, I deer hunted in my early years before dogs come into play and we used doe in heat to bring bucks in. We need to contact Dogs-Afield and see if they would like to sell your new product bitch in heat for those who need to train with females but don't have them. Just spray it in the blind and on route to a duck. I think it would work.

I have a hard time believing a dog in a truck that's in heat could cause a well trained male dog to mess up in the field. Sounds like a training issue or a dog that doesn't have it in the first place. Now if they are airing these dogs on the same grounds, yes it would cause some problems, but well trained male dogs have a great desire to pick up ducks. We train for all kinds of temptations in the field, so why would this be any different.


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## cpayne (Feb 22, 2003)

I wouldn't say that a dog reacting to female smells isn't well trained. Both males in Tim's first post have All-Age points. Both have also been around numerous females in training situations that were in season. But are also heavily used studs. I think that probably has more to do with it than being poorly trained. 

We bred to Drake right after he won the National and he was being bred left and right and how he held it together at a trial after I don't know. I was there when the breeding took place and you couldn't have forced him to a duck then.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I have a hard time believing a dog in a truck that's in heat could cause a well trained male dog to mess up in the field. Sounds like a training issue or a dog that doesn't have it in the first place. Now if they are airing these dogs on the same grounds, yes it would cause some problems, but well trained male dogs have a great desire to pick up ducks. We train for all kinds of temptations in the field, so why would this be any different.


Sounds like you are speaking without personal knowledge.

I have an AFC Male who is very influenced by bitch scent. We have staked out bitches in heat in training that he has to walk by. We have had bitches in heat run before him. We have done all the training you could possibly imagine. Yet, it still affects his performance.

I have run trials where my now retired FC/AFC males have licked the mat when they came on line.

Yes, you can - and I did - insist on a bitch check. But, you shouldn't have to do so.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> There you go FOM, I deer hunted in my early years before dogs come into play and we used doe in heat to bring bucks in. We need to contact Dogs-Afield and see if they would like to sell your new product bitch in heat for those who need to train with females but don't have them. Just spray it in the blind and on route to a duck. I think it would work.
> 
> I have a hard time believing a dog in a truck that's in heat could cause a well trained male dog to mess up in the field. Sounds like a training issue or a dog that doesn't have it in the first place. Now if they are airing these dogs on the same grounds, yes it would cause some problems, but well trained male dogs have a great desire to pick up ducks. We train for all kinds of temptations in the field, so why would this be any different.


I was not being serious....

I feel for Tim...I feel for those who have been hosed by such actions...I cringe when my boy gets the foamy mouth, quivering chin and glazed eyes...and he has never been bred, I fear his reacton after he is a few times...

FOM


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Boy you haven't lived until you've come to the line and had your dog start rolling and howling in love on the mat. Had a dog one time fight through the urges and after each bird of the triple would deliver the bird, roll on the mat and then go get the next bird. I showed the judges the blood on the mat when he got done running the blind, then said "hope you two are having a fun time judging today. I'll SEE YOU IN THE NEXT SERIES!"


/Paul


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Ted all I'm going by is when I'm judging, someone runs a male dog and the dog doesn't do well there has to be a bitch in heat. You can't take female smells away from FT/HT. Did you find a female in heat when you ask for a bitch check? If you did then they should be disqualified, but this aways seems to come up when a dog isn't on it's game. One of your dogs is an AFC and the other FC/AFC, so I would say they are well trained retrievers. They must have been able to overcome the desire of the female scent.

FOM I was to.....


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Ted all I'm going by is when I'm judging, someone runs a male dog and the dog doesn't do well there has to be a bitch in heat.


Kim

You obviously did not read my post.

Let me try again. I have had two FC/AFC males - both retired. I have an AFC - active. All three were affected by bitches in heat.

You said well trained dogs are not affected by bitches in heat

I am here to tell you that they are.

Please don't bother to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. 

Ted


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## sandyriver (Feb 24, 2008)

Pete said:


> I do believe the hunting dog sports are the only dog venue prohibiting bitches running in season.
> I see both sides so
> Pete


Obedience events do not allow Bitches in heat to enter and if caught believe me the other exhibitors let the person know that it is not appreciated and the judges are none too happy either....if it is a repeated offence then your name would get around and other exhibitors would recognize you as less of an exhibitor....and bad reputation. Also it is up to the judge to report the handler for not scratching from the trial due to bitch in heat. They can enter however if they do not show any signs yet of being in so sometimes the fact that they are about to go in can affect other male dogs. Obedience shows are also often in the same vicinity of the conformation dogs which can be seen walking around in heat with their panties on  I have a neutered male and he still gets all wonky...drools heavily,etc....even had him run out of the obedience ring to chase some tail that was passing by :-x needless to say we NQ'd.

I don't have a female in heat to train around always but what I've done and kind of gross but I get a sample from a friend who breeds....papertowel swipe of the bitch and bag it for later ...put in the freezer than bring it out once in awhile to test/train with him around it...hoping that perhaps he might....just might be able to still work through a bitch in heat. Hopefully, to prevent another NQ and waste of an entry fee. Though I can imagine that some intact males would be climbing the walls. Anyhow, since it can occur might as well attempt to proof for it but realize that sometimes we just don't always get the best ideal situation to show in and work with what we ever situation you might be faced with.

Keep them at home if possible and if not then air them plenty a distance away from the airing and trial grounds.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Ted I've never said I didn't believe you or was trying to tell you that you didn't know what you were talking about. I said I had a hard time believing a dog in heat on a truck would affect dogs running. I can't believe a shady pro wouldn't bring a whole truck load of dogs in heat if he thought it would help him win. Ted you don't agree that a lot of people use the dog in heat excuse was the reason their dog didn't do well?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I repeat

I believe that dogs in heat - on mat, on grounds, on truck - affect a dog's performance.

I believe that affect exists in well trained dogs.

I believe that you are being overly dismissive of a genuine problem.

Do people complain without justification?

Sure, but nearly so much as you claim

Ted


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

So what do we do to stop this problem, Dogs that put out scent weeks before blood can't run, dogs that just went out of heat can't run, should only males be able to run. I would dare to say on any given weekend there is either a dog thats coming in, going out or is in full blown heat. The rules state dogs in heat can't be on the grounds and the only way we have to detect that is by blood, what about dogs that don't show signs? What about neighborhood females? The list can go on and on, I don't see a solution other than running just males or females at a test which will not happen. 




> Do people complain without justification?
> 
> Sure, but nearly so much as you claim


I see it at just about ever hunt test, maybe this doesn't happen much at FT's.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

FOM said:


> I was not being serious....
> 
> ..I cringe when *MOOSEGOOSER* gets the foamy mouth, quivering chin and glazed eyes...and he has never been bred, I fear his reacton after he is a few times...
> 
> FOM



Fixed it for ya


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

I would be all for running them last but AKC runs the show.... I think. During the heat period, their little pee-heads aren't screwed on any tighter that the males sniffing around them. By the way, DOW or no DOW, when is the last time anything really ran in order? Especially now that many clubs begin the Open and Am on the same day.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Oops! Freudian slip...meant to say "pea-heads" not "pee-heads".


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Ted is correct 
Bitches in season affect all canines involved. males females,neutered males and spayed females.
Everything affects a dogs performance.
Nothing gets by their schnozola in which they must use a large portion of their brain power to analize.
Has a male ever won a trial where a bitch in heat has been entered.
If so do you think that scent slipped by him but every other male had to endure such a temtation.
Dogs are masters of their environment. Motions,scents and sounds do not go unoticed. It all gets registered unlike we humans which are quite unaware of most everything that goes on around us.

No one should knowingly bring a bitch in heat around a field trial. Thats a no brainer,,,,,however life happens.



> Obedience events do not allow Bitches in heat to enter and if caught believe me the other exhibitors let the person


If my memory is still intact herding and schutzund competion doesn,t care if dogs are in heat or not.


Pete


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Rules say no bitches in heat allowed ON THE GROUNDS.
> 
> BTW- I said it was not a shot at the pros, but as Patrick pointed out they usually are the ones in my experiance that do exactly as Patrick says, they have them on the truck and no place to leave them. Ever once in a while I see a non pro who knowingly or unknowingly does it. Just the nature of the business, but their business should not affect everyone else.
> Leave them home




I know too many Pros who succesfully find a place, off grounds, to leave any bitch on their truck who has come into season. So there is simply no excuse for a Pro to keep a bitch in season on their truck. 

Any Pro -- or amateur -- who cannot abide by the rules should be _eliminated_ from competition and asked the leave the grounds _immediately_.

All AKC HTs & FTs should have bitch checks ... period! Clubs like to rake in the $$$ from the Pros but are just too lazy and/or intimidated to do the right thing for _all_ the dogs.

Regarding how badly dogs are affected by bitch smells -- it depends on the _individual_ dog. Thus a rule designed to protect _everyone's_ interest.

Regarding the propensity of handlers to claim that a "bitch must be in heat" explains their dog's suboptimal performance .... hey guys and gals, _train your dogs! _

If you really do believe that a bitch is responsible insist that the club check all the bitches in your stake. Otherwise, take your loss in stride!


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I also run my bitches in season through their heat. The boys learn how to deal with it.
Do my boys ALL have the SAME reaction to this???
NO WAY!!
Some boys train through it and some loose their minds. The same can be said for the bitches. Some can't think their way out of a paperbag and some seem to be that much better while in estrus.
I adjust everyone's training program during that time.
Is it good sportsmanship to bring these ladies to either a H.T. or Trial??
NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!
Either leave them at home/kennel/boarding facility/ a friend's house..........
Bitch do give off pherahormones(spelling??)weeks or months prior to estrus. All bitches(neighbors down the road as well as that bitch running that is weeks or a month away from estrus). And it is known that "Our Boys" can smell bitches for miles.
So what do we do???
Like anything else in training try to train for it IF possible. Notice I did say "IF".
So sorry for your frustration Tim!!!!!!!!!!!
Sue


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

One dog would be stupid if there was a dog in season, and yes obedience people do it too
Whistler could care less unless it is time to be bred.
Carbon got a prostate infection when Poppins thought about coming in season.:roll:

In defense of some people with females in season-Poppins acted like it, but never showed ANY signs. Carbon thought she was, Whistler thought she was stupid. She has still not come in, so I am starting to wonder if she had a silent season. Really hope not.


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> I know too many Pros who succesfully find a place, off grounds, to leave any bitch on their truck who has come into season. So there is simply no excuse for a Pro to keep a bitch in season on their truck.
> 
> Any Pro -- or amateur -- who cannot abide by the rules should be _eliminated_ from competition and asked the leave the grounds _immediately_.
> 
> ...



I've only seen one bitch check at all the hunt tests, HRC and AKC, that I've been to. Thats not to say that they didn't go on but I didn't see them and didn't take part if they did. 

What are you all seeing in the way of bitch checks at the tests and trials you attend?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> the MALE of any animal species has one thing on his mind besides eating...its to procreate with the FEMALE of the species...you cant out train Mother Nature


Best post on this entire thread.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> So what do we do to stop this problem


Easy...

Have clubs that enforce the rules and have participants that believe in principal.

Good luck regards,


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Easy...
> 
> *Have clubs that enforce the rules and have participants that believe in principal.*
> 
> Good luck regards,


 
Ding ding ding
Forget all the suggestiong about training through it. Check the bitches and leave your dog at home if you think she is about to come into heat. I have always been able to say within a week when my dogs would come in and if they are that close I leave them at home. I have no reason to run them and screw someone else who paid hard earned money to run their dog. I cannot think of anything so important that you can't leave a bitch at home ewven a week before you think she is coming in. There is no shortage of test or trials it is not the last one the dog will ever run.....


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## carolinagold (Jan 19, 2003)

Quite frankly have talked to several pro trainers and have heard the comment that if they did not have a dog in heat on the truck by the weekend they would by the next trail. Gentlemen it is going to happen so make sure your dog is experienced as much as possible on each equation. Yes they have rules but it may not happen when you want it to. Do you have a bitch if you know exactly when she goes into heat tell me exactly how you know blood temperature etc!!! I have a sweet girl and hope to run derbies with her !!!
________
Ferrari F2002 specifications


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

I call B.S. I know of quite a few handlers that reference the fact that a bitch in season is the best training to they have. That being said how can you blame one persons' dog for your dogs faults. I am not saying it should be allowed but a day here a day there, who knows. I own two females that can swing within 6-8 months of last heat cycle. Do I not run them? I would never take one onto the grounds that is in full swing, but a week after stoppage, you damn right. Train don't complain. Definetly do not blame another dog for something your dog did. Go ahead complain!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm sure glad y'all can tell when your females are coming into season. I've never been able to predict when my females are coming in, It would be nice to know. Could someone let us in on that little secret. When females are in training they sometimes go a couple of months passed there expected time. Sorry but unless my females are showing signs, I'm going to run them and I'll also run my males. Why should I miss a test that is 50 miles away because my female could come into season within the next couple of months. That would be same as asking you not to come if your dog can't handle females smells. It's funny, females are only in season for 3 weeks about every 6 to 8 months but males are in heat every day. When I let my males out they have to check out ever female just to make sure. What about other males peeing by the line, when that happens every other male has to mark there territory. What if a male pees out in the field, man I would be mad because my male had to stop and pee, forgetting where the other marks fell.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

The other thing as some may know when their own bitches come into estrus BUT I've had bitches that decide when its a good time for them to come in NOT according to a schedule.


Still if it happened on the road I'm a fair sports minded gal... I'd leave the gal back at the motel ,at the boarding kennel.............
I also DO NOT tolerate marking of my boys on every dam twig while running a trial/hunt test or in training. I air them then they are ALL expected to be ready to do something NOT tinkling on everything. I once had a male pee on my lunch while judging.:-x
Sue


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

akblackdawg said:


> Last Aug 15th I ran a HT with my bitch. I was expecting her to come in season around the end of the month and knew she could be a bit early but my male dogs were not acting "funny" and everything seemed normal. Others at the test knew I was expecting her to come in soon since I had been talking a lot about my breeding plans, etc.
> 
> After running her, several approched me at varous times about male dogs doing a lot of sniffing, being distracted, etc around the line, after she had run. I told them she was expected soon, but not in yet. I'm sure several were say my bitch was in heat, the next day I left her at home since she was not scheduled to run. I suspect that there may have been another bitch in season or near, running.
> 
> She did not come into season to where she was actuallyl bleeding for another 2 weeks. What was the problem, do we need to stop running a month prior to her scheduled heat cycle, or was I ok then. I think I was ok then and would do it again. Bud


Look!!! I am rethinking the above experience and my reaction to it. I ran my girl that weekend, she was not in season, she was not bleeding. Our club requires a vet to verify that a dog is in heat to get a refund. I know, once before the club secretary told me no refund without a note from the vet. I paid my $75 and I ran her. I do not think I was illegal or breaking any rules, especailly when she did not come into heat for a full 2 weeks later. Maybe a masking scent would help things with her, maybe it was another dog that created the problem, I don't know. If she had been in heat to where I realized it, she would not have been there, but she wasn't. This is the first bitch i've had, have always had males prior to this. I'm still not so sure about them producing scent 2 weeks prior to blood. I'm still confused about this, as far as I'm concerned now, there are two conditions involving a bitch: in season, and coming into season. I guess a third also, coming out of season, which must overlap coming into season. Bud


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Troy B said:


> I've only seen one bitch check at all the hunt tests, HRC and AKC, that I've been to. Thats not to say that they didn't go on but I didn't see them and didn't take part if they did.
> 
> What are you all seeing in the way of bitch checks at the tests and trials you attend?


I run spayed females- ALWAYS AND ONLY. I have spent more time standing in line for a bitch check being performed by some dumbass that has absolutely NO clue what they are looking for than I care to talk about. If you are going to do a bitch check then it needs to be done by a board certified vet that has the proper equipment on hand (microscope and all) to make a determination. Some allhose's second cousin that used to live next to someone that sat on a bus next to someones Aunt that was a vet tech don't make it.

Can't tell you the number of times that I have had someone screaming at me that my dog is in heat (spayed YEARS before) and/or handlers that are screaming their little lungs out about a "bitch in heat" after watching 20+ male labs sit on the same mat and do their job without any sign of distraction.
If you have a male dog- teach him to do his job in the face of distractions and most of all------

STOP SNIVELING!!!!

So Tim you are apparently saying that your dog had this all sewed up and the ONLY thing that prevented you from waltzing off with the big BLUE thangy is that your dog might possibly a little bit around the corners mostly somewhat could have smelled a little like something that smelled pretty good and he lost his mind?

STFU and run yer dawg. Either he can or he can't and that's all there is.

Been affected by that stuff my ownself regards

Bubba


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

There are bitches that you can tell are coming into heat and there are those that you absolutely can not. One arrived at the FT grounds and came in heat between the time she left and the time she got there. This bitch was attractive to males all the time her whole life so the boys didn't help either. I never forgot it and I do not run bitches in FT anymore, maybe HT, but not FT.


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Your preaching to the choir, I run two females and a male. The males not bothered by it when we're working but it drives him nuts around the house. One of the females is like clockwork and is very obvious. The other is very inconsistant and unless I see a change in the males behavior around her I can't tell untill it's full blown. Pre or post to me isn't "in", it's simply a part of the game.

I've seen the same thing you describe. Evan watched a handler complain about his two males dogs preformance due to a bitch in heat when all the dogs in the particular stake were males.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> Can't tell you the number of times that I have had someone screaming at me that my dog is in heat (spayed YEARS before)


Seen this also at hunt test, you know the person complaining was embarrassed.



> Evan watched a handler complain about his two males dogs performance due to a bitch in heat when all the dogs in the particular stake were males.


Man that would be even more embarrassing. Maybe one of the males had bitch in heat spray on their butt.

akblackdawg what were you rethinking, should you have run the dog the next day. I would have and wouldn't feel bad about it. 

Are we saying females are not worthy to compete because they may come into season. Thats kind of like telling women they should stay home, do house work and let the men do what they were put on the earth to do. WORK. How would that go over in todays society. 

I guess the ones that were complaining, if they would have won the blue ribbon that weekend then this wouldn't have matter to them but someone else would have been complaining.


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

kimsmith;436165.
akblackdawg what were you rethinking said:


> Sorry, guess I wasn't clear on that one, the next day I was judging and had considered bringing her to run as test or for set up, however I decided to leave her at home to avoid the hassle. Did not miss running another test due to her being a female. Bud


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I guess the ones that were complaining, if they would have won the blue ribbon that weekend then this wouldn't have matter to them but someone else would have been complaining.


I do not know where you get this idea that:

1) People bitch about bitches because they are poor sports; or
2) If people are successful, they aren't concerned about bitches on the trial grounds

Tim West is a good friend, and has had more than his share of success in FT. I don't ever recall him publicly complaining about a bitch in season ... or anything else that affected his dog's performance.

I can tell that I have placed and won when I know that there have been bitches in heat on the grounds and the fact that my dogs did well did not negate how angry I was about that.

I think you are drawing pretty big conclusions on insufficient information.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

akblackdawg said:


> Look!!! I am rethinking the above experience and my reaction to it. I ran my girl that weekend, she was not in season, she was not bleeding. Our club requires a vet to verify that a dog is in heat to get a refund. I know, once before the club secretary told me no refund without a note from the vet. I paid my $75 and I ran her. I do not think I was illegal or breaking any rules, especailly when she did not come into heat for a full 2 weeks later. Maybe a masking scent would help things with her, maybe it was another dog that created the problem, I don't know. If she had been in heat to where I realized it, she would not have been there, but she wasn't. This is the first bitch i've had, have always had males prior to this. I'm still not so sure about them producing scent 2 weeks prior to blood. I'm still confused about this, as far as I'm concerned now, there are two conditions involving a bitch: in season, and coming into season. I guess a third also, coming out of season, which must overlap coming into season. Bud


Bud, you didn't break any rules, but I can tell you this, all the male dogs I have ever trained Darla with have known that she was coming in AT LEAST 2 weeks prior. Especially Bob and Deb's Coal. 

Also, for whoever it was that said well trained males will run well after a sweet smelling gal is wrong. We ran a male FC AFC on purpose after Darla and he just lost his mind! He swam out, snuck around a bush and back to the line where Darla had just been.... Of course, he coulda just been a freak of nature I suppose...:razz:

Ps for Bud... We don't require a vet cert for a refund, for a bitch in heat if she comes in the day of the trial and you happen to already be there camping or something. Just show the chairman and get her on outta there...


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I guess the ones that were complaining, if they would have won the blue ribbon that weekend then this wouldn't have matter to them but someone else would have been complaining.


I will promise you if Tim says there was a hot bitch on the trial grounds there was one there. Second, this moronic bullshit about training for females in heat is just this side of stupid. Third, I have owned and still own a dog that thing all females smell good no matter what…it was his undoing in the hunt test game but he has made a fine hunting dog. 

If you have a bitch in heat leave her at home…PERIOD… that is the sportsman like thing to do not the mention the rulebook REQUIRES it.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> A bitch in heat DIRECTLY contributed to my male dog to be dropped today in the Amateur and very much affected at least one more male dog that ran after me (he was dropped also).


Ted if you never heard him complain before, you have now. I would bet there was a dog in heat at the trial, I would also bet at some or most trials someone has a dog that is in heat on the grounds. 

Ted you shouldn't have kept that Blue Ribbon because it wasn't fair that you and your dog won. That dog that was dropped because of the dog in heat could have been better.



> Third, I have owned and still own a dog that thing all females smell good no matter what


Are you saying it didn't matter if a dog was in heat or not. Like most males they don't care, they will try anyway until the female bites. I know the heat cycle is harder for the male but we can't stop running females just because we think they might come in within the next month or so.


I don't know Tim, Ted or Patrick and I don't have issues about the rule. I've said that dogs in heat shouldn't be on the grounds. You can't control what other people do so all you can do is run and hope for the best. I've heard over and over again how my dog did bad because a dog was in heat. FT folks might not run into this much, but in the HT game it's just about every weekend.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I do not, and would not, bring a bitch in heat to a HT. Period. However, I can honestly count on one hand how many hunt tests I have been to in the last 2 years where at some point someone running a male did NOT complain that there must have been a hot bitch running in the flight after the male gakked up a test. Never seen a dog flunk a bitch test at any of these events, either. (Although the bitch check is usually just someone with a paper towel, not a vet).


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Patrick,

If the dog is in season they may bring dog onto grounds. Like I said quit bitchin and be prepared for it. They are risking their own ass if they do it. Get a handle on your dog and run it.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2009)

I have a really stupid question. I do not run trials with my dog, he is a SAR/cadaver dog. He has never been bred, and acts like a teenage boy in lust around a female. He is all over them, and they are all spayed. I have never had him around an intact girl. I don't know what or how to deal with this. He acts so stupid when he sees a girl, and aggressive to boys. He listens and I have never had a fight, thank heaven. Any suggestions on how to get him to not be so stupid around the ladies.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> Any suggestions on how to get him to not be so stupid around the ladies.


Think about it, if we knew the answer to that a lot of men wouldn't be in the trouble they are in today.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I have a really stupid question. I do not run trials with my dog, he is a SAR/cadaver dog. He has never been bred, and acts like a teenage boy in lust around a female. He is all over them, and they are all spayed. I have never had him around an intact girl. I don't know what or how to deal with this. He acts so stupid when he sees a girl, and aggressive to boys. He listens and I have never had a fight, thank heaven. Any suggestions on how to get him to not be so stupid around the ladies.


Tie a scented rag around his tail for a week.

Sorry, just had to say it.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> Think about it, if we knew the answer to that a lot of men wouldn't be in the trouble they are in today.


 
So very, very true.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I'm curious about the bitch check. I've run a number of HRC and AKC hunt tests over the last 13-14 years and I have never seen or heard of a bitch check on the grounds. Maybe there have been bitch checks and I was just oblivious because I only had a male dog. However, I would think that somewhere sometime in the process of checking in at HQ, getting my catalog, directions to my stake, standing around talking to handlers, etc., I would have heard something about it.

How is this supposed to work? When and where is it supposed to happen? Do the judges get some kind of confirmation that all bitches in their flight have been checked or is it just the honor system?

I am sure I've been at HT where there were bitches in heat. There have been times in the holding blind when I cannot get my dogs nose off the ground and they are doing that licking their lips, clicking their teeth thing. I would be pissed off if I knew someone knowingly had a bitch in heat there. I would imagine that I would be much more pissed off about it if I were a FT competitor.

As for timing of the heat cycle, I have a friend who cannot run our local HRC hunt test because every spring and every fall his dog is in heat when the local HRC club holds its test. He doesn't even think about entering her anymore because he KNOWS she will be in heat then. I know some women are more regular in their cycles than others and I'm sure it is true with dogs too, but I think there is some merit to the idea that you know when your bitch is about to come in.

Train don't complain, blah, blah, blah, sure train for it if you can, but that doesn't change the fact that it is against the rules to have a bitch in heat on the grounds. If I knew a bitch owner had the attitude that hey, I paid my money and the males will just have to deal with it, I would want to choke that owner.

The rules are the rules regards.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2009)

Ok, OK..I knew it was a stupid question....lol...but, seriously, will breeding him, calm him down. I have never bred a dog. I have always left that to the professionals. But, I heard that breeding will calm them. Am I wrong? I have a serious problem with him and the girls. I would like him to be a gentleman, if possible. Help would be great. Thanks.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Ok, OK..I knew it was a stupid question....lol...but, seriously, will breeding him, calm him down. I have never bred a dog. I have always left that to the professionals. But, I heard that breeding will calm them. Am I wrong? I have a serious problem with him and the girls. I would like him to be a gentleman, if possible. Help would be great. Thanks.


Most likely it will make him more aware if only bred once. Stud dogs that are bred a lot don't pay much attention unless a female is ready. 
I have 2 studs in the house and there is a female in season on day 10 and they are so used to it no one gets excited until she is ready, but males that have been bred only a few times will usually get worse before they get better about being gentlemen.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

HuntinDawg said:


> I'm curious about the bitch check.
> 
> How is this supposed to work? When and where is it supposed to happen? Do the judges get some kind of confirmation that all bitches in their flight have been checked or is it just the honor system?


With bitch checks, there is typically a station at headquarters. All bitches must check in there, be checked and will receive a ticket or some other stub to show that they are clear. You are then supposed to present that to the marshal.

Other than the master national, I've probably been to 1/2 a dozen clubs with bitch checks. It's a pain, but not a bad idea.

HOWEVER, of the ones I've been to, only maybe one of the marshals has actually asked for the tickets...

-K


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

We do bitch checks at MFGRC (Florida). They are given a ticket stub which you have to turn into the marshal when you check in. We have bitches marked in the catalog and all running orders. Trust me I've designed the catalog AND accepted those little stubs as a marshal. 
--Anney


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I've never seen a Bitch Check at an AKC event, but most HRC events have one. They use a paper towel or tissue paper, but they can only detect blood.

Kristie what do y'all do when you have a truck load of dogs miles away from home and one comes into heat at a FT/HT. I would guess most Pro's keep the female on the truck and air them somewhere other than the grounds.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Ted all I'm going by is when I'm judging, someone runs a male dog and the dog doesn't do well there has to be a bitch in heat.
> 
> FOM I was to.....


Don't know where you judge, but you just "bitch" slapped a whole bunch of handlers with male dogs. Glad you don't judge in my area.


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

I have never seen a bitch check at an AKC event. Used to see them all the time for HRC, but not as much. Some of the clubs will issue a ticket, others a sticker and still others just check it off and you leave for the stake and then you are good to go. One club actually had the bitch check before the gated entrance to the grounds and they checked all the dogs, not just the ones entered. My guys passed, so I don't know what they did if they found a bitch in season. That was probably five years ago and I have not seen that done since. 

At the Grand, there is a bitch check every morning BEFORE you pull out to go to the test. Granted, only dogs in contention are checked.

I have an intact male and currently have a spayed bitch that I am running. I have had bitches that were not spayed and have never had a problem with the concept of a bitch check. 

Carol


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

FYI: Bitch checks are done regularly by a vet at the Nationals. 
This has been quite an interesting discussion because I would love to have some means by which to tell when my girls are coming into estrous; unfortunately there isn't any way. I actually had Amy at my vets last year where they took blood to send to Davis. I was concerned because she had not come into estrous for months and months. That night I happened to look down and there on the floor was a very fresh drop of blood. Guess who'd just come in? The vets hadn't even known she was on the verge--no swelling or anything! Amy's split her estrouses since she was in the Derby so we don't get to run many trials as a result and since all of my girls are related they all have somewhat same problem. They can go from 6 to 18 months between cycles.......and no, my male doesn't always acknowledge that someone is coming in until they are there and then he goes nuts and couldn't find a skunk in a phone booth with the door closed.

I've had my girls come in between the first and second series of a Qual, as they were literally getting on the truck to start a circuit, after dropping them off at the pro's as he was loading up to leave for a circuit--I had to turn around and drive all the way back and pick her up after he'd left, and while running the last series of an Open (yes, she finished and placed). She was running last, so thankfully it didn't bother anyone, but it wasn't until the pro got her out of the truck afterwards that he saw a drop of blood fall and found more on the bottom of her box. Because of all the weird cycling I always carry chlorophyll tabs just in case one of them comes in while we're at a trial or traveling. It really helps kill the scent.

Suzanne B
who loves all her cute little irregular girls anyway


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Ok, OK..I knew it was a stupid question....lol...but, seriously, will breeding him, calm him down. I have never bred a dog. I have always left that to the professionals. But, I heard that breeding will calm them. Am I wrong? I have a serious problem with him and the girls. I would like him to be a gentleman, if possible. Help would be great. Thanks.


 
:razz::razz: I don't think it works that way,,,,well actually breeding him will take away his sex drive for a few minutes . he may even want to smoke a cig

Putting the dog through a force program will help some as long as you are with him. Then you can tell him "hear and he'll pay attention to you,,,,sort of. Other wise all he'll hear is bla bla bla bla bla.

SAR training probably has alot of positive re-inforcment and I've never seen a dog choose a cookie over a piece of Cookie.
Pete


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Suzanne Burr said:


> FYI: Bitch checks are done regularly by a vet at the Nationals.




I know of one bitch that was excluded from a National due to vaginal discharge, but was not in season. She was taking mibolerone (cheque drops) which sometimes produces a milky vaginal discharge and did not come into season during the National, or for months thereafter. Yet she was not allowed to compete. Is that an acceptable outcome? I think not.

IMO, if we are going to dismiss entries based on a "bitch check" it needs to be performed using a method that is absolutely correct in all cases. 

We discussed this in 2007 and Dr. Ed offered good info on the medical specifics regarding how to tell for sure if a bitch is in season in the following RTF thread

*http://tinyurl.com/estrustest*

Also, bitches are allowed to run the day before they come into season and the day after they are season. 

The definition should be determined on a standardized medical basis rather than relying on the reaction of male dogs.

The challenge is to clearly define precisely when they are in season. There is more to it than attraction to males.

When I had an intact bitch, I relied on the following graph from the LSU Veterinary School regarding the typical number of days a bitch is in season.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> Patrick,
> 
> *If the dog is in season they may bring dog onto grounds*. Like I said quit bitchin and be prepared for it. They are risking their own ass if they do it. Get a handle on your dog and run it.


See it is people like you who don’t give a flip about anyone but yourself that causes problems and disregards the rules. You are so important that you feel you can go against the rules just so you can have fun forgetting about everyone else.

Section 5. *Bitches In Season. Bitches in season*
*shall not be eligible for entry in any Hunting Test and*
*shall not be allowed on the grounds*. Entry fees paid for
a bitch withdrawn because of coming in season or for a
dog withdrawn because of an injury or illness, or for a
dog that dies, shall be refunded in full by the test-giving
club. Prior to paying such refund, the club may require
an appropriate veterinary certificate. In the event a
dog is withdrawn for other reasons, the test-giving club
is free to formulate its own policy with reference to
refunds provided that said policy shall be fixed in
advance of the mailing of the premium list for any
particular Test.


It is a shame there is an entire Me generation who thrives on selfishness 
See here is the key, it is a RULE, not a suggestion and for bitch owners (and I am one) to break the rules purely for their own satisfaction is wrong. TO suggest that male owners “train” for it so the male dog can do its job when YOU chose to break the rules and bring a bitch in heat to a test can only be defined as selfishness. 
Train don’t complain is nice but what you are saying is “I am a cheater and I don’t follow the rules and tough crap for those of you who do”.


BTW- Notice that is a *SHALL NOT* be brought on the gorunds, not SHOULD not


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Furball
Mid Florida is the only AKC test I have seen a bitch check at in Florida


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

The assumptions regarding the details of the incident, particularly the male's performance on the test, are quite amazing. To my knowledge all of you who are criticizing Tim were nowhere near the trial, and you clearly don't have a clue when or how the problem manifested. You certainly have no idea regarding Tim’s training habits. Yet, you are very willing to publicly criticize Tim (and the dog!) for highlighting a problem that is indisputably against the rules. 

I’ll stop there regards,
Frank Price


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Folks,

Some of the responses are becoming personal attacks and including language that is not appropriate for our RTF members that are minors. 

Please discontinue personal attacks and remember our younger members.

Thanks.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

As a hunter , the saying regarding "Code of Conduct" and "Ethics " ,is what you do when only you will know what really happened .All alone in the middle of nowhere, you could easily take a few more birds , or nail that bull across the river , even though you don't have a tag for that side of the river . No one will ever know. Except you . And that SHOULD mean more than anything .
And its clear that posters to this thread know the rules .
To tell others to train differently , or that the reality of a test/trial is that its done all the time , speaks volumes about your character, or lack thereof.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Well said, Frank.

Great post, John.

If one doesn't want to play by the RULES, one should find another game to play regards,

kg


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

John Kelder said:


> As a hunter , the saying regarding "Code of Conduct" and "Ethics " ,is what you do when only you will know what really happened .All alone in the middle of nowhere, you could easily take a few more birds , or nail that bull across the river , even though you don't have a tag for that side of the river . No one will ever know. Except you . And that SHOULD mean more than anything .
> And its clear that posters to this thread know the rules .
> To tell others to train differently , or that the reality of a test/trial is that its done all the time , speaks volumes about your character, or lack thereof.


 
Post of the YEAR John


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bayou Magic said:


> The assumptions regarding the details of the incident, particularly the male's performance on the test, are quite amazing. To my knowledge all of you who are criticizing Tim were nowhere near the trial, and you clearly don't have a clue when or how the problem manifested. You certainly have no idea regarding Tim’s training habits. Yet, you are very willing to publicly criticize Tim (and the dog!) for highlighting a problem that is indisputably against the rules.


My feelings precisely

Ted


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## kb27_99 (Sep 28, 2006)

Neuter the boys! Problem solved.




Cheers,

Kevin


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

kb27_99 said:


> Neuter the boys! Problem solved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it does not solve the problem....

FOM


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Bitches in season are not allowed on the FT GROUNDS.....Period!

That said, I think the misconception about "training through it" comes from the fact that somebody(s) _always_ think they have a good reason for bringing a hot female on the grounds! They are meeting a stud owner and wanted to make sure they had plenty of time to find them; they are picking up the female to take home & the owner arrived "early"; etc. Therefore, amateurs and pros alike continue to train the hot female to expose their male dogs to it for whatever benefit may be derived from such exposure in a non-competition venue so that a correction can be made if necessary to get the male's attention back onto his work. We also run such females (at least in my training group) last--after all the boys have run the test!

I also think that most pros and amateurs alike will not be too interested in leaving their valuable competitive dogs with an unknown boarding kennel, vet, or unattended in a crate in a motel room. Stuff happens on the road and exceptions always occur. Is it pleasant--absolutely not.

I have never had a "bitch check" at a field trial--only at nationals. I did, as a judge, have to make a bitch check at a trial because a male left the honor box and jumped a female. *The female showed absolutely ZERO evidence of estrus! I also knew a spayed female that ALWAYS got the boys wound up!*

It is encumbent on contestants--professional and amateur alike--to check females that are nearing the times for their cycles and to scratch from competition and remove from the grounds whenever possible. But...that said, it is not always possible to "get them off the grounds at the last minute". Most boarding kennels around here are booked for almost every weekend. To get kennel space in my area, you must book a run at least 2 weeks in advance. Most of the veterinary clinics in this area do not board dogs at all. They don't even have after-hours contact numbers--we have wonderful emergency care vet centers for after-hours injuries and illnesses. These facilities don't board either! To leave a dog unattended in a motel room is unconscionable! Who will air, water, attend to the dog during the trial? What if the motel staff are not comfortable with dogs who have absent owners?

In short, there will always be some instances of hot females on the grounds. But....that said, the owners/handlers/professionals should park well away from the other contestants--all the time. The vehicle housing the hot female should NEVER air anywhere near the on-deck areas for a test. Whenever possible, these females should be removed from the grounds, but its not always reasonably possible when the heat cycle begins at the trial!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Vicki Worthington said:


> Bitches in season are not allowed on the FT GROUNDS.....Period!
> 
> In short, there will always be some instances of hot females on the grounds. But....that said, the owners/handlers/professionals should park well away from the other contestants--all the time. *The vehicle housing the hot female should NEVER air anywhere near the on-deck areas for a test. *Whenever possible, these females should be removed from the grounds, but its not always reasonably possible when the heat cycle begins at the trial!


Again breaking the rules for ones own gain. To park a truk well away is to say you know you are breaking the rules and airing ANYWHERE on the gorunds should result in you being removed from the grounds. There is no excuse. Just becsue someone has a truck full of dogs they are paid for does not excuse them from breaking the rules.
I don't mean to get on you personaly, but you are saying it is ok if you can't find a kennel to house your bitch? In that case why bother to try, just tell them that you tried to find a place but you had to book two weeks in advance..... I don't see it in the rules where it says bitches in season shall not be allowed on the gorunds UNLESS you tried to find a boarding facility but couldn't. Oh heck guys I really tired to find a kennel to take my bitch but since I couldn't I didn't think anyone would mide if I aired her in the airing area...


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Well said Vicki but everyone should try to keep these females off the grounds if anyway possible. How many people would feel comfortable leaving their dog with someone they don't know, I wouldn't. I would never run a dog in heat, but have run a dog that come into heat 5 days after a Q. I didn't have a clue other than she wasn't marking as well. Should I have scratched her even through I didn't know she was coming in. This is a complaint I hear just about every weekend I judge, so what should I say to the guy when his male dog didn't do the work. The only reason I said train, don't complain is because male dogs are male dogs and this will always be a problem having female and male dogs on the same grounds. Sorry if I made some mad but what about the ones that own females, should we quit running because our dogs could come in or just went out.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Sorry if I made some mad but what about the ones that own females, should we quit running because our dogs could come in or just went out.


See Johns post above


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## Chris S. (Dec 15, 2004)

*Should I have scratched my dog from an event on 2/27/09 because “some time in March” she will come in season?*
She started her cycle on 3/2/09 exactly. I was paranoid so I was wiping and peeling open from 2/22/09 until blood was evident on 3/2/09. I don’t want to be the reason for someone else’s performance at a FT. I scratched from a FT on 4/3/09 because the dog was still acting so squirrelly from her heat cycle. I did not ask for a refund because she did not have any bloody discharge. 
*I wonder if I should ask for a refund from a trial I where I recently scratched my post “heat” dog? *
I think post bleeding bitches are still smellin’ good long after the discharge has stopped and some bitches just smell good all the time. 
*What is the solution?*


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

How does Johns post answer my question. We are not breaking the rules if they could come in or they went out. So we don't have Ethics bringing these dogs to FT/HT. Wow I guess this is only a male sport and females don't belong. I'm sure all male dog owners have Ethics that we all dream about. I own both, so I don't know where I belong most likely the non Ethical community. You are not going to stop people from bringing females in heat on the grounds unless you stop them at the front gate and check them every morning. Some knowing they are breaking the rules, some ignorant to the rules, and some will have females come in during the weekend trial.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Corey, I am not advocating that people should knowingly break rules! If you actually knew me, you would never have said that. Or maybe you would...I seem to recall you getting pretty viscious in a discussion about limited registration. A pointless argument because you have never even inquired about any of my breedings that I'm aware of...and I would not likely be interested in selling into a non-competitive home either.

As far as for personal gain--you had better climb down off your high horse because if you fall from that lofty height you will likely break your neck! Were it not for "personal" gain, there would be no complaints about the male dog owners blowing their entry fees! Oh, and for the record, I predominantly run male dogs! I have had females, but haven't had to deal with them being in season on the grounds. 

Mother nature ensures that there will always be some female(s) that come into season *after* arriving at the trial/test! I do not advocate either of these measures as the appropriate way to deal with the problem:

1) That handler/agent should NOT have to scratch all their entries because a single dog came in heat and appropriate housing could not be found for the female.

2) That the handler/agent should have to place a dog in substandard care by unknown caregivers or abandon the dog unattended in a motel room just because some male dog may be affected. 

I do believe that appropriate measures should be taken to assure that the rule is enforced. I believe this is the job of the FTC whenever a situation arises--not the internet utopians. However there will always be circumstances where the intent of the rule must be enforced, but perhaps not the absolute letter of the rule. Like it or not, there are always going to be females who smell good to the boys on the grounds. Some legitimately, some not. If the situation arises--report it to the FTC and let them handle the issue. If you don't report it to the FTC, you have no reason to complain anywhere else.

Ted & Tim, I've been right there with you guys. It's very frustrating. I was told many many years ago that there will _always_ be a female that gets the boys upset.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Vicki Worthington said:


> Corey, I am not advocating that people should knowingly break rules! If you actually knew me, you would never have said that. Or maybe you would...I seem to recall you getting pretty viscious in a discussion about limited registration. A pointless argument because you have never even inquired about any of my breedings that I'm aware of...and I would not likely be interested in selling into a non-competitive home either.
> 
> As far as for personal gain--you had better climb down off your high horse because if you fall from that lofty height you will likely break your neck! Were it not for "personal" gain, there would be no complaints about the male dog owners blowing their entry fees! Oh, and for the record, I predominantly run male dogs! I have had females, but haven't had to deal with them being in season on the grounds.
> 
> ...


 
Vicky
The bold statement do seem to indicate that you do advocate breaking the rules since you feel that since mother nature caused it the handler agent should be allowed to keep his bitch on the grounds. The rule is the rule because it is too easy to say “oh she wasn’t in heat yesterday, she must have just started”. Gosh gee I am really soory but I just couldn't find a place to leave her.... Oh wow that must have just started... The rule says bitches in season shall not be allowed on the grounds. I still don’t see where it has a disclaimer that states “unless the handler/agent says they just went into heat magically when they got to the grounds”. Help me out here and show me where that is stated in the rules or anything even remotely similar. Just show me one place where there are provisions made for a bitch in heat on the grounds. 
Not sure why you want to go down that personal road and bring up your version of old threads. As I recall what I said was I would not buy a dog on limited registration. I couldn’t give a flying flip if you sell them that way or if others buy on limited registrations. I really don’t care if you would sell me a dog, never seen anything of yours I would be interested in (no offence of course). Nice derail and as I am sure you are aware I, unlike the sham wow guy, can do this all day and can bump it up to your personal level if you like

Rules are rules and until you can show me where the AKC makes provisions to allow ANYONE to bring a bitch in season on the grounds for any reason I will stick by the fact that you or anyone else condoning or making excuses for having them there are advocating breaking the rules. Prove me wrong
See Johns post above


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## PintailAle (Mar 19, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> How does Johns post answer my question. We are not breaking the rules if they could come in or they went out. So we don't have Ethics bringing these dogs to FT/HT. Wow I guess this is only a male sport and females don't belong. I'm sure all male dog owners have Ethics that we all dream about. I own both, so I don't know where I belong most likely the non Ethical community. You are not going to stop people from bringing females in heat on the grounds unless you stop them at the front gate and check them every morning. Some knowing they are breaking the rules, some ignorant to the rules, and some will have females come in during the weekend trial.


Kimsmith (and others),

I think the point people are trying to make is that there seems to be a lack of consideration. You are trying to come up with every excuse for bringing an in heat (or on the way in, on the way out, or anywhere in between) rather than taking the precautions that YOU need to be taking. Whether you realize it or not your actions can effect a lot of other people. Everyone invests a lot into each trial they run (time, money, being away from families, etc.). Just be considerate of everyone else. I think that is all that people are asking here! 

PintailAle


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Very Nice Pintail
Ethics, you either have them or you don't


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*When I started in this game all I had was females. I used to think that people were paranoid about the "cycles." Now I have 3 competitive males and now I know what everyone was paranoid about. I keep very close track of my females cycles and I can tell you that the male that is home with me pays attention to some of them 2 to three weeks ahead and after their cycles. I think they must still smell good. I have one female that must be Ode to the Boys #5 all of the time....as she always smells good to the boys. It all comes down to the person running the dog. Good guys will go to the extreme to make sure their female is not in season....bad guys won't care one way or another. I do however believe you cannot "train" it out of them.

Mother Nature Regards,

Aaron*


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I know I'm splitting hairs here with the rules but is a dog in a truck on the grounds if they are not let out, just asking so don't get all upset. 

Have you ever seen someone ask to leave the grounds because a female in heat was on a truck? Just wondering. Also have you ever seen your male dog screw up even though the female was never let out of her box?

I could see that being a big problem because at our FT/HT we run close to a large neighborhood and you know with that many houses, someones dog is in heat.

I live in the country and when my females come into season, I have male dogs that live up to 5 miles away come to visit.


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## brlcon1 (Apr 24, 2006)

badbullgator said:


> Very Nice Pintail
> Ethics, you either have them or you don't


Bingo !!!!


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Some people have ethics, some have the internet!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> I know I'm splitting hairs here with the rules but is a dog in a truck on the grounds if they are not let out, just asking so don't get all upset.
> 
> Have you ever seen someone ask to leave the grounds because a female in heat was on a truck? Just wondering. Also have you ever seen your male dog screw up even though the female was never let out of her box?
> 
> ...


Excuses, excuses.......
Are you on the gorunds if you are in your truck? Let me help with that. 
You get stopped on someone’s property by a law enforcement officer for trespassing. Is the judge going to let you off because you were only in your truck and not actually on the grounds in question?
See Johns post above

Nice Vicky. No answer I guess, just an attempt to vilify me for a non related thread and then that…. I guess you will always have the internet


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

So it sounds like the only Ethical thing for female owners to do is stay home. We shouldn't run them 1 month before they come in, 1 month after they go out. Thats 3 months ever cycle, so we have only 6 months to run them. The only thing we can hope for is they come in during the winter months or right in the middle of summer. I guess I'll have to join the non ethical group because unless my female is in season they will run and the male dogs will just have to suffer. Sorry....... Maybe y'all need to have a all male club?????


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## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

John Kelder said:


> As a hunter , the saying regarding "Code of Conduct" and "Ethics " ,is what you do when only you will know what really happened .All alone in the middle of nowhere, you could easily take a few more birds , or nail that bull across the river , even though you don't have a tag for that side of the river . No one will ever know. Except you . And that SHOULD mean more than anything .
> And its clear that posters to this thread know the rules .
> To tell others to train differently , or that the reality of a test/trial is that its done all the time , speaks volumes about your character, or lack thereof.


 This about sums it up, I think. After the considerable amount of time money and effort I put into training my dog. I would like to think that the only factors we will be up against at a trial will be ones that we can train against. 


To say to a male dog owner "get over it" ....well. There is a reason you will be written up for bringing a dog in season on the grounds and it will be no ones fault but your own.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> So it sounds like the only Ethical thing for female owners to do is stay home. We shouldn't run them 1 month before they come in, 1 month after they go out. Thats 3 months ever cycle, so we have only 6 months to run them. *The only thing we can hope for is they come in during the winter months or right in the middle of summer*. I guess I'll have to join the non ethical group because unless my female is in season they will run and the male dogs will just have to suffer. *Sorry....... Maybe y'all need to have a all male club*?????


 
See there you go again...
If your dogs not in season whats the problem. IS your dog not regular in her heat cycles? Do you mark them on a calander? I do and guess what one of mine comes in every January, right in the middle of our test and hunting season. She comes in again in the summer (she is a regulay lke clock work 6 month cycle) I had another that was every 8 months, and another that was once a year, but guess what I knew pretty much to the week when they came in and the never set foot on any test grounds during that time. I have not said anything about running a dog that is not IN season, but I have said if your dog comes in every 6 months and the next test trail will fall 5 months and three weeks from the last heat cycle the right thing to do would be to leave her at home and run when she is done but even that is a close call and if she is not in feel free to run her. Me I just would not plan on running any test near that time, 5 months 3 weeks would be my cut off point for her and I would find a place to leave her and run my other dogs. Again show me where it says you can't run your dogs BEFORE they come into heat or AFTER they are done. That is you self flagellating.


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## Chris S. (Dec 15, 2004)

Chris S. said:


> *Should I have scratched my dog from an event on 2/27/09 because “some time in March” she will come in season?*
> She started her cycle on 3/2/09 exactly. I was paranoid so I was wiping and peeling open from 2/22/09 until blood was evident on 3/2/09. I don’t want to be the reason for someone else’s performance at a FT. I scratched from a FT on 4/3/09 because the dog was still acting so squirrelly from her heat cycle. I did not ask for a refund because she did not have any bloody discharge.
> *I wonder if I should ask for a refund from a trial I where I recently scratched my post “heat” dog? *
> I think post bleeding bitches are still smellin’ good long after the discharge has stopped and some bitches just smell good all the time.
> *What is the solution?*


Some strong opinions are being posted on this thread. I would like to read your responses to my very specific questions.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

How many people do you know that have been writing up for having a dog in heat on the grounds. I've been running HT for 15 years and never heard of anyone getting written up. Now I've heard of some being ask to leave, which they should. Unethical regards.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Do you know much about females, if not please don't post something you know nothing about. If you have a female that is in hard training they could go 2 or 3 months passed their normal time. If you can tell when a female is coming in please let me know, it would help out a lot when planning different events, breedings or whatever else planned. I think you could make a lot of money if you can do this. Some have advocated with their posts any female that might be coming in or just went out shouldn't be on the grounds and if we bring them then we are not ethical.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> How many people do you know that have been writing up for having a dog in heat on the grounds. I've been running HT for 15 years and never heard of anyone getting written up. Now I've heard of some being ask to leave, which they should. Unethical regards.


No argument there. My own club does not do bitch checks. That is not just part of the problem, it is the biggest part of the problem. You don’t see many people ticketed for littering either but it is still a crime and the fact that it is not enforced does not make it OK to toss your McDonalds bag out the window or dump a truck load of trash out in “the country”. 
The problem with enforcement is that 1) HT/FT committees are volunteers and most do not want confrontation, 2) more times than not it is a handler of multiple dogs that has the dog in question and nobody wants to deal with the amount of trouble it could cause to ask that handler to remove the bitch. The problem will probably not ever end because people with your mind set will continue to bring dogs that shouldn’t be there because they don’t feel that the rules apply to certain circumstances (no place to leave them, dropping them off to someone at the test, just came in….) Short of AKC rules police being in place we will have to continue to put up with people who have no regard for others.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Badbullgator,

You sound like you are in season. The internet is a mighty tool for the less mighty. I know of two places that have handlers park vehicles on public roads and have to walk their dogs past these trucks. Now are you going to complain that your dog failed even if the truck is not on the grounds? Probably. Like I keep saying get control of your animal.

I do not condone breaking the rules but it happens. You here it at every venue, "there must be a dog in season" you here it only from the guys that their dogs looked like sh*t on the trial/test.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

My answer would be no, if she comes in before the test scratch her, if she comes in during the test scratch her, but not until then. Unethical regards.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thinks Scott, couldn't have said it better.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Do you know much about females, if not please don't post something you know nothing about. If you have a female that is in hard training they could go 2 or 3 months passed their normal time. If you can tell when a female is coming in please let me know, it would help out a lot when planning different events, breedings or whatever else planned. I think you could make a lot of money if you can do this. Some have advocated with their posts any female that might be coming in or just went out shouldn't be on the grounds and if we bring them then we are not ethical.


Yeah Kim I do know just a bit about reproductive cycles of numerous mammals. 
Most cycle on a regular basis and a little tool called a calendar and it goes a long way. Doesn’t work in every case, but it is a good start. 
BTW- I have had far more female dogs than males and never had much trouble tracking them


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## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> How many people do you know that have been writing up for having a dog in heat on the grounds. I've been running HT for 15 years and never heard of anyone getting written up. Now I've heard of some being ask to leave, which they should. Unethical regards.


Lots of people steal car stereo's and never get caught, or when they do catch the thief, the punishment is generally lenient. Does that make it OK?

If running a dog in heat affected no one but the dog in heat, I would say knock yourself out. That is not how it works though.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

BBG,

I call B.S. I have one right now that is a month and a half past. They train hard everyday and do not have a once of fat on them. Don't feed me sh*t with a golden spoon because it is still sh*t. My females have never had a normal cycle. You may know alot about human reproproductive cycles but little about dog reproductive cycles. I have mine marked on a calendar that I am looking at now and the closest they have ever come is three weeks. Not very precise.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> Badbullgator,
> 
> *You sound like you are in season.* The internet is a mighty tool for the less mighty. I know of two places that have handlers park vehicles on public roads and have to walk their dogs past these trucks. Now are you going to complain that your dog failed even if the truck is not on the grounds? Probably. Like I keep saying get control of your animal.
> 
> I do not condone breaking the rules but it happens. You here it at every venue, "there must be a dog in season" you here it only from the guys that their dogs looked like sh*t on the trial/test.


Very classy Scott, you really need to read the entire thread. Show me where I have complained about it. Better yet find someone that will tell you I have ever complained about one of my dogs being dropped for this. Really, please. I never have, it happens and I happen to train with my girls when they are in heat. In fact two weeks ago someone brought one to a club day and he waited until everyone had run and then it was too late for him to run the dog. I told him he could have run before I did because I don’t care. This is not about people complaining about having a dog dropped for it, it is about people breaking the rules. Do you disagree? 
As far as the pro parking on a public street off the grounds, fantastic, what a guy and someone who has good morals and is an ethical handler.
Now you know Scott calling me a bitch really takes away form your credibility. Really is your only justification for breaking rules to call me a name?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> BBG,
> 
> I call B.S. I have one right now that is a month and a half past. They train hard everyday and do not have a once of fat on them. Don't feed me sh*t with a golden spoon because it is still sh*t. My females have never had a normal cycle. You may know alot about human reproproductive cycles but little about dog reproductive cycles. I have mine marked on a calendar that I am looking at now and the closest they have ever come is three weeks. Not very precise.


 
Whatever, but here is the KEY, you are allowed to scratch you bitch right up to the day the trail test starts. So why would you have any need to have her on the grounds?


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

BBG,

I never called you a name. I was referencing the fact that you are very tough on the internet. Read my post. I do not condone breaking the rules. Read my posts. Like I said male handlers blame a bitch in season when their dog runs like sh*t. I know quite a few males that just get squirrelly around any female. But answer my question will you complain or will others complain when they have to walk their dogs past trucks on public grounds that have females in heat on it. Probably.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I was asking the question because a post above stated they would get written up, just never heard of anyone getting written up.

badbullgator how much are your special calendars, please send me one if they don't cost much. You could get rich with a cycle calendar. Do you also have one for women because it would be nice to know when my wife is going to take my head off.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Males can probably detect well before any plain sighted human can when a female is in heat. If you cannot see swelling or blood how can you tell when you leave at o'dark thirty to get to the sight. Hard to scratch when you don't see the tell tale signs.

Like I said every female is different, hard to track if they train often. I would like someone to tell me if they know, it would make my day easier.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Chris S. said:


> *Should I have scratched my dog from an event on 2/27/09 because “some time in March” she will come in season?*
> She started her cycle on 3/2/09 exactly. I was paranoid so I was wiping and peeling open from 2/22/09 until blood was evident on 3/2/09. I don’t want to be the reason for someone else’s performance at a FT. I scratched from a FT on 4/3/09 because the dog was still acting so squirrelly from her heat cycle. I did not ask for a refund because she did not have any bloody discharge.
> *I wonder if I should ask for a refund from a trial I where I recently scratched my post “heat” dog? *
> I think post bleeding bitches are still smellin’ good long after the discharge has stopped and some bitches just smell good all the time.
> *What is the solution?*


 
Sorry Chris I didn’t mean to ignore you. No I think you did the right thing. You knew she was coming in and monitored her right up to the time. Now would you have pulled her if you went back to the hotel Saturday night and found she had started? 
I would not have run my girl that close especially if I was so worried that I was checking her, but that is me. If she had not started you were within the rules. My only question, and the reason I would not have run one of my bitches in that situation, is what if she started in the truck just before you went to the line, or even while running the series? No test or trail is so important to me that I can’t sit one out. Do I think a post heat bitch still smells good and can drive some dogs crazy, of course, but it is not against the rules? That is the point where you have to ponder what John wrote a page or so back.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

> Section 5. *Bitches In Season. Bitches in season*
> *shall not be eligible for entry in any Hunting Test and*
> *shall not be allowed on the grounds*. Entry fees paid for
> a bitch withdrawn because of coming in season or for a
> ...


So how is "in season" defined in regards to this rule?

How does AKC determine if the bitch is in season?

How does the FT/HT committee determine?

How does a vet determine?

How do *I* determine if my bitch is in season?

I *AM ethical, honest and a good sport*. I *DO NOT* knowingly break rules and do not excuse anyone else for doing so. But I want to know what the rule means and I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that if some male dog is distracted by my bitch, then she must be in heat.

Here's what I do:

I look for blood. If there is none I assume she is not yet in season.

I watch my boys. (one is a stud dog, bred nearly 50 times ... he will know if she's close. ;-)) If they indicate the time is near, I don't bother to enter. If I am already entered I prepare to scratch unless it proves to be a false alarm.

If she has completed her season, I let the boys tell me if she is done.

Here's what I DON'T do:

I don't use the calendar as an absolute.

I don't use the behavior of other unfamiliar dogs ... I've seen too many that are distracted by far less.

Some of you seem very passionate about this rule and I understand that. I have suspected my stud dog was distracted by a hot bitch several times in HTs. Very frustrating.

I play by the rules but I want to know what they are. How is it determined if/when they are broken? Does it mean "3 weeks before and 3 weeks after to make sure"? 

I think Vicki Worthington sums it up pretty well; the rule is a good one and the _spirit _of the rule is to provide fair competition for everyone. But sheet happens and when it does it doesn't always mean someone is a cheater or is unethical.

You can try all you want to make the world perfect. Hope you succeed. But, in the meantime, I'm gonna do what I can to prepare for those times when the "sheet happens".

JS


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Corey I didn't ponder it very long. Unethical regards.

JS nice post and I believe most in the dog community feel the same way you do.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> I was asking the question because a post above stated they would get written up, just never heard of anyone getting written up.
> 
> badbullgator how much are your special calendars, please send me one if they don't cost much. You could get rich with a cycle calendar. Do you also have one for women because it would be nice to know when my wife is going to take my head off.


 
NOthing special about them, you can get them at any walmart or drug store I am sure. The fact that you can't track your wifes suggest she is either getting older or she may need to see a doctor. Barring any medical conditions your wife should be pretty easy to track


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## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

Scott Greenwood said:


> BBG,
> 
> I never called you a name. I was referencing the fact that you are very tough on the internet. Read my post. I do not condone breaking the rules. Read my posts. Like I said male handlers blame a bitch in season when their dog runs like sh*t. I know quite a few males that just get squirrelly around any female. But answer my question will you complain or will others complain when they have to walk their dogs past trucks on public grounds that have females in heat on it. Probably.


Scoot, handlers complain when their males put their heads on the ground and pop their jaws and drool instead of watching birds..hence the *reason* for the AKC rule. 

Just curious..if someone disagrees with you in a face to face situation what do you do? Tackle em? A little Greco Roman grappling perhaps? Why would the internet make anyone tougher especially when you are likely to see them at a trial or test sometime in the future?


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Rules are rules and ethics are ethics. If I think I can run a dog post cycle, I will run her. Sorry I am not going to wait a month so she clears up. That is me. I will wait a week but not because of someones male, but for the health of my own female. If I was going back to the truck and noticed bleeding, you damn right I would not run. Rules are simple. So is the health of your dog.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> BBG,
> 
> I never called you a name. I was referencing the fact that you are very tough on the internet. Read my post. I do not condone breaking the rules. Read my posts. Like I said male handlers blame a bitch in season when their dog runs like sh*t. I know quite a few males that just get squirrelly around any female. *But answer my question will you complain or will others complain when they have to walk their dogs past trucks on public grounds that have females in heat on it. Probably*.


 
I believe I did answer your question. What a good person this is to keep his truck off the gorunds as the rules state. If anyone complains about it that would be their problem as no rule has been broken. BTW- big difference between a truck parked off the grounds, dogs in the area off the grounds and a dog that has sat its butt down in the holding blind or pee'ed all over the airing gorunds don't ya think

And here so you don't have to go bad and actually read anything this was my answer to your question

_As far as the pro parking on a public street off the grounds, fantastic, what a guy and someone who has good morals and is an ethical handler._

Reading is fundamental regards

hey BTW I am pretty tough in person too;-) I think anyone who knows me will tell you I am not an internet tough guy. What you read is what you get face to face as well


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Yeah Kim I do know just a bit about reproductive cycles of numerous mammals.
> * Most cycle on a regular basis* and a little tool called a calendar and it goes a long way. Doesn’t work in every case, but it is a good start.
> BTW- I have had far more female dogs than males and never had much trouble tracking them


I don't know how many bitches you have experience with but it is NOT unusual for them to have a very sporadic schedule.

I know that from personal bitches and from trying to predict future breedings for other bitches ... variations of 3 or 4 months is not uncommon as well as other irregularities.

JS


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I got in 3 fights when I was young, lost all 3 so at that point I decided I wasn't a fighter but a lover. My wife of 25 years might say I'm neither. Also Corey my wife has never been on schedule, it might be 25 days or could be 35 days since the day we started dating. So if you have a cycle calender that predicts the cycle please send one my way.

Also corey if you would read the post about the Pro parking on a public street, it was the parking area for the test. The male dogs still had to go by the pro's truck to run so what would be the difference.

I wouldn't have posted at all but almost ever weekend I hear the same excuse from male dog owners that a female in heat had to be on the grounds because their dog looked like crap. Just sayin.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Ken,

Any one that knows me knows I tell it like I see it. No beating around the bush. I have gotten in trouble afew times but that is how it goes. If I meet you at a test/trial I mean what I say, but most of us I have a feeling would get along just fine. I also see other handlers that can and will work through a distraction like this.

By the way, we all know people are a little more slack jawed on the www.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> I Again breaking the rules for ones own gain. To park a truk well away is to say you know you are breaking the rules and airing ANYWHERE on the gorunds should result in you being removed from the grounds. There is no excuse. Just becsue someone has a truck full of dogs they are paid for does not excuse them from breaking the rules.
> 
> BBG,
> 
> You state it there. This one grounds has a public road not more than fourty yards form line of test. It also has a ditch that is public and can be used by anything or anyone. This is where they are required to park and is not breaking any rules. And no you did not answer question, are YOU or any other handlers going to complain in such a situation?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

JS said:


> I don't know how many bitches you have experience with but it is NOT unusual for them to have a very sporadic schedule.
> 
> I know that from personal bitches and from trying to predict future breedings for other bitches ... variations of 3 or 4 months is not uncommon as well as other irregularities.
> 
> JS


Again
if your dog is in heat on the day of the trail/test you can scratch so you have lost nothing. Regardless of weather or not you know when she comes into to heat on a regular schedule . I agree not all dogs fit a regualr schedule in all cases. BUt ever dog swells and bleeds and I believe that is the definition


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> BUt ever dog swells and bleeds and I believe that is the definition


Wrong again, you might need to stop posting until you know what you are posting about.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> badbullgator said:
> 
> 
> > I Again breaking the rules for ones own gain. To park a truk well away is to say you know you are breaking the rules and airing ANYWHERE on the gorunds should result in you being removed from the grounds. There is no excuse. Just becsue someone has a truck full of dogs they are paid for does not excuse them from breaking the rules.
> ...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Wrong again, you might need to stop posting until you know what you are posting about.


 
really so you have a dog that doesn't bleed or swell

and Kim your still on finding ways to cheat or avoid the rules. Is it really that important to you to run your dog at others expence?


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I have never brought a female in heat onto the grounds of a trial. However, I did have a female in heat in my truck parked off the grounds while another of my dogs was running. In that case I was actually taking the female to be bred immediately following the trial. I did not allow her to air in any of the areas being used by other dogs at the trial and felt I was following both the letter and spirit of the rules when I parked her outside of the grounds.

I would love to have a female that was completely regular. I've never been that fortunate with any dog in training. I tissue test all of my females before leaving for a test or trial if I think there's any chance that one might be close. 

However, if I were a pro with 16 dogs on my truck, I would expect that there would be a few times during the season when I would find a dog spotting on the morning of the second day of an event located several hours away from the kennel. Do we then expect the pro to scratch the whole truck? I suspect that most in this situation would simply be careful not to allow the female out of the truck unless they were off the grounds. Would you view this as unethical or a violation of the rules? What do you think should be done in this situation.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> really so you have a dog that doesn't bleed or swell


I believe that is called a silent heat.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

1st retriever said:


> I believe that is called a silent heat.


 
Silent heat is not NO blood, just very unnoticable blood. News flash any eggs being released will result in some blood. Weather or not you will ever notice it or not may be questionable. 
Follicles must rupture to release eggs period. 
Ok good enough please bring your silent heat dogs to the test or trail


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## Grant Wilson (Feb 27, 2008)

In the words of the great man that taught me to train pointers....."WIPE A LITTLE VICKS ON IT" HA HA j/k;-)


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

YardleyLabs said:


> I have never brought a female in heat onto the grounds of a trial. However, I did have a female in heat in my truck parked off the grounds while another of my dogs was running. In that case I was actually taking the female to be bred immediately following the trial. I did not allow her to air in any of the areas being used by other dogs at the trial and felt I was following both the letter and spirit of the rules when I parked her outside of the grounds.
> 
> I would love to have a female that was completely regular. I've never been that fortunate with any dog in training. I tissue test all of my females before leaving for a test or trial if I think there's any chance that one might be close.
> 
> However, if I were a pro with 16 dogs on my truck, I would expect that there would be a few times during the season when I would find a dog spotting on the morning of the second day of an event located several hours away from the kennel. Do we then expect the pro to scratch the whole truck? I suspect that most in this situation would simply be careful not to allow the female out of the truck unless they were off the grounds. Would you view this as unethical or a violation of the rules? What do you think should be done in this situation.


See Jeff we do agree sometimes. 
IF, and that is a big IF, the bitch on the truck comes in DURING the trial/test in the situation you describe it would still be a violation of the rules, but given great care and never having the dog off the truck on the grounds........ The big problem is as I said before it is easy to say "she just started".....


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Not relevent to trial or tests, but I had entered my two females in a weight pull and the rules did not allow a bitch in heat to compete. Two months prior to this weight pull one of my females had been in heat...after I weighed her in a lady walked up and complained to me that my dog was in heat because her mail was licking the scale surface and chattering his teeth. I told her no way was my dog in heat, and she was welcome to bring a marshall and check my dog.....

I have also noticed that about 2 months after one of my bitches has a heat cycle my male will become interested in them again...

I would have to believe that they are emitting some hormonal scents that are attractive to him, even though they are not in heat...

Juli


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

sky_view said:


> Not relevent to trial or tests, but I had entered my two females in a weight pull and the rules did not allow a bitch in heat to compete. Two months prior to this weight pull one of my females had been in heat...after I weighed her in a lady walked up and complained to me that my dog was in heat because her mail was licking the scale surface and chattering his teeth. I told her no way was my dog in heat, and she was welcome to bring a marshall and check my dog.....
> 
> I have also noticed that about 2 months after one of my bitches has a heat cycle my male will become interested in them again...
> 
> ...


 
Yeah that happens a lot, and that I have no problem with accepting, that some dogs are going crazy no matter what stage the female is in. That is a time where train don;t complain comes in.


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## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

I think it would be okay, if it's an _*English and Silver *_lab in question, but not any other dogs.....








in all seriousness....I have seen 'hunter's trials' completely ruined by in-heat dogs running.

I do believe that the owner knowingly ran said dogs in an effort to get a 2 dollar ribbon.

The Hunter's trials have a 'bitches in heat run last' rule 

but I have seen guys bring their dog's to the gallery before their turn, and you can see the dogs in the field react instantly.

as for HRC tests....I have been to 6....and saw one bitch check. Can't believe it's not enforced more..I know my male would have been worthless had he run after an in season dog...he'd have been humping the ground in the holding blinds....

it's simple, the rules say they can't be there, you gotta comply.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

kb27_99 said:


> Neuter the boys! Problem solved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you serious?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Chris S. said:


> *Should I have scratched my dog from an event on 2/27/09 because “some time in March” she will come in season?*
> She started her cycle on 3/2/09 exactly. I was paranoid so I was wiping and peeling open from 2/22/09 until blood was evident on 3/2/09. I don’t want to be the reason for someone else’s performance at a FT. I scratched from a FT on 4/3/09 because the dog was still acting so squirrelly from her heat cycle. I did not ask for a refund because she did not have any bloody discharge.
> *I wonder if I should ask for a refund from a trial I where I recently scratched my post “heat” dog? *
> I think post bleeding bitches are still smellin’ good long after the discharge has stopped and some bitches just smell good all the time.
> *What is the solution?*


Chris, you are probably nicer than I would be as I go by more the strict bleeding guideline (unless there are some brain fragmentation issues remaining with the bitch!). I am sitting here w/ printed out agility trial entries, wondering when Mata who whelped in late Nov may come into season again. Typically my girls are 1-2 mos later than normal (she's a 7-8 mo cycler) after a litter... so will we be safe in mid June, I wonder? I can enter and get roughly half my $ back if she comes into season (another venue where bitches in season are excluded) with the proper paperwork in that case. I'll probably enter and if she's not in and out by then, will have her on Chlorophyll caps as I mentioned earlier. They seem to work quite well... Anyhow, that's my solution!

After a heat cycle, I doubt (since we all swim our dogs regularly) that she should still be throwing that much scent, but again, if in doubt, give her chlorophyll. You can find it at health food stores for ~$10 a bottle of 100. 1 a day seems to do the trick for mine. 

I was told by a ski mom once that it also does wonders for "Frito Feet"--- stinky ski boots due to all the fries and junk the kids eat when on the slopes!  Anne

PS, another reason for using bleeding as a reference is that some bitches will split their season... bleed a few days, then go totally out of heat for 3-8 weeks before coming "back" in and being fertile. If you counted strictly 3 wks from the onset of bleeding, you'd have a number of folks mad at you, no doubt!!!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Corey if someone brought a bitch to a test that was in heat then yes they are unethical. I would never do that because of 2 reason. First it's the rules most importantly, 2nd most of the time they couldn't find a pink elephant in an open field so why waste the time and money. It's funny that only the male dogs that run like crap are the ones affected, the other ones go on to win. Like Ted said he won a trial and he knew a bitch in heat had to be on the grounds. Sounds like we are splitting hairs of ethics, I wouldn't want to win that way but maybe I'm on the wrong side of the fence. You can't have it both ways, you can't feel sorry for the guy who has 16 dogs on his truck with no way of getting this expensive female taken care of and not feeling sorry for the guy who drove 300 miles just to find out his dog came into heat. At least this guy can take his only dog back home, but the guy with 16 dogs doesn't have a choice. I would have to say if I had a male that was so interested in a dog on a truck in heat that he wouldn't pick up ducks, I wouldn't want to run male dogs.

Like I said before male dogs pee on a spots that other male dogs pee, they love any smell a female dog puts off and if a female isn't in heat they will try anyway, just like us. Gets a man in trouble every day.......


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> Scott Greenwood said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty clear that is not breaking the rules, but is it the best judgment by the person witht hte truck? No leave the bitch at home.
> ...


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Does anyone know what "In Season" means

Is it receptive or is it the sluffing of lasts months girlly stuff

I think a dog that just starts bleeding smells different than a dog thats "In Season". As a matter of fact I know they do.
My male stays as far away from my bitch as possible when she starts bleeding. Down right avoidance I tell ya.
So now what,,,,we have a dilema

We need a lawyer and a canine reproduction specialist to figure this one out.

By the way is there anyone here who thinks bitches do not come in season on saturdays or sundays and who here can see 1 drop of blood on a black matt or wipe a dogs vaginal area after she has cleaned herself all morning .
Yesterday was the first time a bitch of mine cycled at 6 months in about 25 years.
Its usually 8 to 18 months.

The only way to solve this dilema is to have a vet do round the clock bitch checks until the last dog runs on sunday. That means every hour every bitch gets a blood test. I would be fine with that if the clubs wanted to shell out the dough. I don't know if the dog would still be alive but anything to make sure everything is at perfection. 



Pete


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Pete said:


> Does anyone know what "In Season" means
> 
> Is it receptive or is it the sluffing of lasts months girlly stuff
> 
> ...


Ahh, but does he stay far away early on because he fears his face will be ripped off if he casts a wanting glance her way???:razz:


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> badbullgator said:
> 
> 
> > Finally I get an answer out of you. He is not breaking the rules. Rules are Rules and ethics are ethics. They are different and always will be for every different person on here. By the way I can read. You just kept avoiding the answer by saying congratst to the guy. Now quit complaining he is not breaking rules so you are pissing up a tree.
> ...


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

It's good to see everyones got a job on this board. 

Leave for work, hop on the blackberry 3 hours later and there are almost 60 new posts!!!!!! Where do I get an office job like you guys??


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

JeffLusk said:


> It's good to see everyones got a job on this board.
> 
> Leave for work, hop on the blackberry 3 hours later and there are almost 60 new posts!!!!!! Where do I get an office job like you guys??


 
shhhhhhhhhh....


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Are you kidding me. Maybe you are the one who needs it spelled out for ya. Rules, I believe are put in place to be followed. Ethics are percieved differently by everyone. It is blatantly simple that some peoples ethics are far from yours and mine. Like I said, not breaking rules, just doing what they have to. Now quit complaining.


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## skoog (Oct 17, 2003)

As the owner/handler of the dog that started this thread here are the facts on my dog.

She has been with Bill Shrader, who is a vet, all winter. She has not been in season,
therefore is not coming out now.

I just got back from my vet. Her opinion is that the dog is not in season.

I made an appointment for 11:15 tomorrow to have her checked for vaginitis.

I have been in field trials for almost 40 years and have never cheated or done anything
unethical. I resent the implication in the original post.

Bob Lindgren


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I own a computer company that sells to the Educational Market so I'm on a computer ever hour of the day. I also take 15 minute breaks every 15 minutes. 

Corey thinks, I use RTF as a stress release from everyday life like people squeeze the rubber ball. You have taken the stress out of my day, but maybe one day we will meet at a FT or HT and I'll let you check my females and maybe get that calender from you.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Ahh, but does he stay far away early on because he fears his face will be ripped off if he casts a wanting glance her way???:razz:


Yep their all deathly afraid of the iron maiden. Matter of fact dogs run harder when she'e around The other way of course.

Pete


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> As the owner/handler of the dog that started this thread here are the facts on my dog.
> 
> She has been with Bill Shrader, who is a vet, all winter. She has not been in season,
> therefore is not coming out now.
> ...


So all y'all cry baby's, what do you think about that. Like I said this happens just about every weekend, someone complains because their male dog wasn't worth a crap that day. So train don't complain, if you can't get your male dogs to run then buy a female.

Bob good for you, I hope your dog did good but sounds like your weekend might have been missed up. I go to these for fun and If I can't have fun any longer I'm going to quit.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> I own a computer company that sells to the Educational Market so I'm on a computer ever hour of the day. I also take 15 minute breaks every 15 minutes.
> 
> Corey thinks, I use RTF as a stress release from everyday life like people squeeze the rubber ball. You have taken the stress out of my day, but maybe one day we will meet at a FT or HT and I'll let you check my females and maybe get that calender from you.


 
you might want to keep your females away form me, my job is getting females pregnant;-)


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

What would they be Labagators.


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## kb27_99 (Sep 28, 2006)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Are you serious?


As a heart attack! But if that was done what other excuse could people use?


This thread is hilarious,


Kevin


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

badbullgator said:


> See Jeff we do agree sometimes.
> IF, and that is a big IF, the bitch on the truck comes in DURING the trial/test in the situation you describe it would still be a violation of the rules, but given great care and never having the dog off the truck on the grounds........ The big problem is as I said before it is easy to say "she just started".....


I suspect that we would agree on most things related to dogs. It's all that people politics stuff where you.......


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Where are all of the wolves now that someone has posted the truth........


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> IF*, and that is a big IF, the bitch on the truck comes in DURING the trial/test* in the situation you describe it would still be a violation of the rules, but given great care and never having the dog off the truck on the grounds........ The big problem is as I said before it is easy to say "she just started".....


Well, just how big an "IF" is it?

I am no statistician by any means but just consider some numbers:

Field trial with 200 dogs entered ... assume 100 bitches.

52 weeks in a year (that, I am sure of )

As I said, I am no statistician, but is it safe to assume that a random sample at any given trial might find *two* of those bitches came in season during the week? *One* of them, probably *AT* the trial?

Not arguing with your points about scratching, rulebreaking, ethics, etc. Just addressing your assumption that it is a rare occurrence.

Just asking.

JS


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

JS said:


> Well, just how big an "IF" is it?
> 
> I am no statistician by any means but just consider some numbers:
> 
> ...


 
your stats could be right assuming a 50/50 split of male to female, but remember some part of those females are not intact so the numbers would be lower. Also you would have to figure in that the event is only 2 or 3 days and not a full week so once again the numbers coming in on those specific 2 or 3 days would be even lower still. Also since cycle times can vary (6 months, 8 months, 11 months...) it is not as easy to calculate the sats as you have done. More likely they would come in during the other 4 days of that week. Still a big IF in my book and an IF that is abused often

you know what they ass about assuming


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Why does everyone automatically assume that when their male acts goofy, its because there is a bitch in heat? Yet, when a bitch owner states the bitch was not in heat when that owner left home to travel to the trial, everyone automatically assumes he/she is lying?

The rule book says no females in heat on the grounds. Yes, that IS the rule. Dogs can and do come in heat on weird cycles--especially those that are active atheletes. Isn't that the absence of estrus in extreme atheletes?

Further, when we wanted to breed our FC bitch, we had her heat cycles charted for 2 years in succession prior to our anticipated breeding date. When the time came for her to come in--she didn't. She qualified for the national--still hadn't had her fall cycle. We tried kenneling her with other bitches in heat--no dice. We ordered check from a compounding pharmacy, but there was a foul up on the delivery dates. Fortunately for us, she did come in heat well in time to compete in the National. It was only 2 months beyond what her previous cycles indicated was the proper time! Calendars and pre-planning just don't always work!


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

Scott Greenwood said:


> Patrick,
> 
> If the dog is in season they may bring dog onto grounds. Like I said quit bitchin and be prepared for it. They are risking their own ass if they do it. Get a handle on your dog and run it.


Cory, I think you are misreading the above quote that Scott wrote. All that first line is saying is that "it happens", people do bring dogs in heat on the grounds dispite it being agains the rules, and that if they do they are risking thier a$$. I've seen a couple resposes by you that apear to be reactions from your misreading somebody elses post. Maybe you need to slow down and not react quite so quickly, reread some of these posts over again. Bud


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

kb27_99 said:


> As a heart attack! But if that was done what other excuse could people use?
> 
> This thread is hilarious,
> 
> Kevin


There isn't a dog that has ever lived who can nail every mark or run every blind perfect. It's not possible. That would be as good as an "Excuse" as any. They're dogs, and none are "Perfect".

I just don't get the neuter comment though.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Pete said:


> Does anyone know what "In Season" means


My understanding is that "in season" refers to the proestrus and estrus periods of the reproductive cycle and that it takes more than a simple swab to be absolutely sure. A female can be in proestrus for several days before there is any discharge, and can still be in estrus when the discharge has ceased. 

Furthermore, the presence of vaginal discharge on a swab, while likely an indication of being in season, isn't absolutely conclusive either. 

I believe it is unreasonable to expect male dogs to deal with the distraction of a bitch that meets the medical definition of being in season. 

On the other hand, I believe it is unreasonble to expect a bitch to be eliminated from competion one minute longer than than the duration of proestrus and estrus regardless of whether males are attacted.

There should be serious consequences when it can be demonstrated with absolute certainty that a bitch is in season. There should also be serious consequences when someone alleges that a bitch is in season but can not prove it with absolute certainty.

If there is a method that can identify the moment that proestrus begins, or estrus ends, I haven't found it. 

Again, I don't object to the rule prohibiting bitches in season. But there needs to be agreement regarding the standard test to be used to make that determination. It isn't adequate to rely on a slobbering, tooth chattering male to reach a that conclusion IMO. And it is unfair to expect a bitch to sit on the sidelines unneccesarily, "just in case" she might still be attractive. Been there, done that too many times and ultimately decided the best solution was surgical removal of the ovaries and uterus.

My next dog will be a male regards,

Jeff


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> your stats could be right assuming a 50/50 split of male to female, but remember some part of those females are not intact so the numbers would be lower.


I would venture to say it is a small percentage of competition dogs that are spayed.



> Also you would have to figure in that the event is only 2 or 3 days and not a full week so once again the numbers coming in on those specific 2 or 3 days would be even lower still.


Most all trials run 3 days plus a day of travel especially for those with multiple dogs entered. Since the suggestion is that many people leave home knowing their dog is in season or close to it, we're talking about time away from home.



> Also since cycle times can vary (6 months, 8 months, 11 months...) it is not as easy to calculate the stats as you have done.


Wouldn't this data be irrelevant? We're just talking about the bitches present. Frequency of their cycles wouldn't make a difference.



> you know what they ass about assuming


I sure do!  I think I was pretty clear in saying my figures are not scientific.

I'm glad you understand my point ... there are some pretty passionate arguments being made here, based on assumptions. ;-)

JS


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

badbullgator said:


> your stats could be right assuming a 50/50 split of male to female, but remember some part of those females are not intact so the numbers would be lower. Also you would have to figure in that the event is only 2 or 3 days and not a full week so once again the numbers coming in on those specific 2 or 3 days would be even lower still. Also since cycle times can vary (6 months, 8 months, 11 months...) it is not as easy to calculate the sats as you have done. More likely they would come in during the other 4 days of that week. Still a big IF in my book and an IF that is abused often
> 
> you know what they ass about assuming


It gets a little more complicated for those pros that head out on a 2-3 week circuit with their dogs. I know a couple of instances where visiting pros have been able to leave a bitch in season at a kennel near the trial. I suspect that there are many more instances where that has not been possible or practical. 

It becomes more interesting when you begin to realize how many breedings have actually taken place during trials. I suspect that relatively few of those females arrived by bus and met their guy in a nearby motel.;-) 

I think most pros are pretty careful to leave females in heat at home whenever they can. Their own males are the ones that will suffer most from having that girl on the truck. I suspect that they are also pretty careful about airing only off the grounds both for that reason and because a pro that is found violating AKC rules can easily lose their entire business.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

akblackdawg said:


> Cory, I think you are misreading the above quote that Scott wrote. All that first line is saying is that "it happens", people do bring dogs in heat on the grounds dispite it being agains the rules, and that if they do they are risking thier a$$. I've seen a couple resposes by you that apear to be reactions from your misreading somebody elses post. Maybe you need to slow down and not react quite so quickly, reread some of these posts over again. Bud


 
Bud
You could be right, however as written using may with nothing more than the sentence there. one could take it a may as in permission or may as in might. Had he written people may do the wrong thing and bring a dog.

No big deal anyway, I have been pot stirring all day…… You really think I get that worked up over this or really anything on here?
Doing what I do well regards


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

YardleyLabs said:


> It gets a little more complicated for those pros that head out on a 2-3 week circuit with their dogs. I know a couple of instances where visiting pros have been able to leave a bitch in season at a kennel near the trial. I suspect that there are many more instances where that has not been possible or practical.
> 
> It becomes more interesting when you begin to realize how many breedings have actually taken place during trials. I suspect that relatively few of those females arrived by bus and met their guy in a nearby motel.;-)
> 
> I think most pros are pretty careful to leave females in heat at home whenever they can. Their own males are the ones that will suffer most from having that girl on the truck. I suspect that they are also pretty careful about airing only off the grounds both for that reason and because a pro that is found violating AKC rules can easily lose their entire business.


Jeff

I would venture to guess that there are multiple breedings at each event. I can attest to two breedings of participating males at a recent FT. BTW didn't seem to bother them in there performance.....er in the field that is.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Doesn't the breeding too high end competitive males AT a FT throw the whole bitch in heat thing a screwball.

Just Curious


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

My question is who wrote the original rule about bitches in season/heat not being allowed on the test/trial grounds.

If there is a rule against allowing in season bitches on the test/trial grounds, obviously the rule writers believed in season bitches impact the work of the other dogs.

So would it be correct to surmise the original policy makers believed one can't necessarily train males to ignore the fact there is a bitch in season on the grounds?

J. Marti


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

badbullgator said:


> Bud
> 
> Doing what I do well regards


 
and apparently you started your pot stirring carreer at a young age....



Soup anyone?

Juli


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

sky_view said:


> and apparently you started your pot stirring carreer at a young age....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Close but I was/am a blond...... I was really good at mud pies too


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

sky_view said:


> Soup anyone?
> 
> Juli


Would have more flavor than most of the food in AK regards.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> So all y'all cry baby's, what do you think about that. Like I said this happens just about every weekend, someone complains because their male dog wasn't worth a crap that day. So train don't complain, if you can't get your male dogs to run then buy a female.
> 
> .


I guess what I would say is this - Bob and Tim are both good men, whom I like and respect.

More to the point, I think your broad statements that:

- trained dogs are not affected by bitches in heat; and
- there is always someone using bitches as an excuse for poor performance

are nothing but attention getting devices.

Moreover, I see no reason to call people "cry babies" because they disagree with you.

Rather than spend any more time reading your posts, I think I will save myself any further brain damage, and simply use the ignore button.

Ted


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> If there is a rule against allowing in season bitches on the test/trial grounds, obviously the rule writers believed in season bitches impact the work of the other dogs.


Because male dog owners needed something to complain about when their dog failed, so why not blame it on the women. We been doing that since Eve made us eat the apple.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Canine reproduction is not as cut and dried as some people on this thread seem to think. If you have only owned several bitches that never were in training year round for field trials, that had regular cycles and then were spayed, and never had a bitch with silent heats, split heats, irregular heats, and absent heats, maybe you would think it works like clockwork. I once had a bitch that cycled every 6 months until she didn't because she became one of several who decided to all come in at once. Vaginitis can make some males chatter as well as UTI's or just plain some bitches always smell good. Since the canine nose is like 1000 more sensitive than a human nose, those pheromones can activate some males. Some bitches have a discharge after whelping for awhile, intermittantly. So black and white it is not, unless black and white equals red blood cells without white blood cells under a microscope I guess. No one should knowingly run a female when she could be still in heat or bring her to the grounds, but the rest of the stuff is bound to happen at times, especially in athletic bitches that don't cycle like clockwork.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks Ted, seems like both of your friends made you look bad. One of them started a thread that was clearing complaining and other stated that he was wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. Unethical regards.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> Thanks Ted, seems like both of your friends made you look bad. One of them started a thread that was clearing complaining and other stated that he was wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. Unethical regards.


So, I guess what you are saying is some competitors are, gee whats the saying, oh yeah got it.

Making up for male inadequacies?:


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## PridezionLabs (Mar 8, 2009)

I have read all 19 pages of this thread and there have been some really good statements made. I am only speaking of personal experience and will say that just because one male doesn't seem to be bothered by the estrus of a female, that certainly doesn't mean ALL dogs aren't, and just as we can't expect humans to be the same,we cannot expect dogs to be the same. There seems to be no easy solution to the problem at hand, and I completley understand the situation for both sides, I own both intact males and females.
I can say however, that in training I have been able to keep my dogs focused. Boozer for instance, will not even bat an eye at an in heat bitch, if we are working,Chip however, will. I can verbally tell the dogs I have worked with to do this, to leave it ,and they will walk away from her. Same if we are training for a track with Chip, I will work him in a area that I have let bitch pee, and watch to see if he varies from the scent trail I have laid down. So I ask this question, wouldn't training be along the same lines as if you were training against, "crittering"? Basically you are training to differenciate between the scents and maintain focus no matter what. This has worked well for me, anybody else out there tried it? What has been your experience?


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I got a good solution, when you bring your male that is brothered by my females, pay me $1000.00 and I'll scratch and go home. 

This is like little league baseball, your kid has to be the best ball player on the field and when he doesn't start, you are mad as crap. Guess what kids don't care, some are made to be there and some like being with their friends. We do this for fun, OK I do this for fun some might not. It's people who complain about everything that takes the fun out of it. Females in heat are the first things brought to the forefront when little Johnny would rather sit in the truck and relax.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Well I know of a "Lil Johnny" that has finished several nationals and isn't worth a crap once he gets a whiff of it. I guess, "Lil Johnny" isn't well trained and just doesn't know what's going on either.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I think the problem from a male dog standpoint is that there are some males that completely come unglued when around a bitch in season, and there is no amount of training that will prevent that from happening with these dogs. Now how many dogs that fail a test do so because of this is arguable. It is human nature to make excuses for our dogs, sometimes the reason/excuse is legit and sometimes it isn't, but it doesn't matter either way because you usually don't get a do-over.

I'm lucky in that the dogs I have now are able to overcome their attraction to a dog in heat, so I don't make an issue out of it other than to tell the marshall my suspisions, as my dog is suddenly drooling and popping his teeth. But the fact that my males are still able to perform well doesn't mean all can. My buddy's FC/AFC would completly go crazy on marks and blinds. I presume the rule was written because they thought this was a serious issue. The reality it is a hard rule to enforce and you will encounter a bitch in heat from time to time. It's a bummer but I chalk it up to the luck of the game. That being said, all AKC rules should be complied with as much as possible. I also believe that if dogs in heat were truly kept away from trial grounds, some dogs performances would be better than otherwise. Also if we can't complain and make excuses to let steam off, this game would truly be unbearable.
John


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

Scott Greenwood said:


> Are you kidding me. Maybe you are the one who needs it spelled out for ya. Rules, I believe are put in place to be followed. Ethics are percieved differently by everyone. It is blatantly simple that some peoples ethics are far from yours and mine. Like I said, not breaking rules, just doing what they have to. Now quit complaining.


From what I have read not only do you not want to follow rules but your ethic are only about your ribbon and no one else.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> Well I know of a "Lil Johnny" that has finished several nationals and isn't worth a crap once he gets a whiff of it. I guess, "Lil Johnny" isn't well trained and just doesn't know what's going on either.


What's Lil Johnny's name, It would be hard for me to believe he made it that far and never smelled the roses.....I would say this Lil Johnny is well trained.



> I'm lucky in that the dogs I have now are able to overcome their attraction to a dog in heat


This must help you at trials, since your dog would rather have the ducks first then worry about the ................


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Regardless of opinions about how, when, if and how much it affects male dogs at a trial, it is a rule. It is a rule that has been routinely skirted or ignored, apparently.

Proper procedure dictates that rule infractions be reported to the FTC for investigation and action. While the internet forum may raise the awareness of just how much people are disturbed by these occurrences, it is not the proper forum for dealing with the problem. Only the FTC, who in effect stands in the shoes of the AKC during the conduct of the event, are the proper place for the complaint.

When dealing with blatant infractions, the FTC may/should take a harsh stance, but only after trying to resolve in an equitable manner for all concerned. When dealing with incidental infractions--those that occur without advance knowledge, I would hope that the FTC would work with the individual(s) to assist rather than to "punish". 

Regardless of opinions to the contrary, canine females that are in constant training--just like professional female human atheletes--have sporadic cycles, few cycles, or none at all for extended periods of time. 

I don't think we should automatically assume that the individual with the hot female did it on purpose. If the dog is not at its peak breeding point in the cycle, how could you prove it was intentional! Give people the benefit of the doubt--at least the first time.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

I will tell you my little jonnys name he is in my avatar. He is not titled yet. He has been trained by several very respected individuals. Basics Bruce Curtis transition Pat Burns and All Age John Henninger. If there has been a bitch in heat run in front of him he is not coming out of the holding blind period. I guess they don't known what they are doing. They probably have trained well over 100 field titled dogs between them.
________
Jeep Cj Specifications


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> What's Lil Johnny's name, It would be hard for me to believe he made it that far and never smelled the roses.....I would say this Lil Johnny is well trained.


FC-AFC I'm Not Saying. It's not my dog, but he has been bred a few times and a couple of people on here have pups out of him. Some dogs flat out can't be around it. Said dog is a perfect example of this. It's very possible this dog wins a national this year.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> *I got a good solution, when you bring your male that is brothered by my females, pay me $1000.00 and I'll scratch and go home. *
> 
> This is like little league baseball, your kid has to be the best ball player on the field and when he doesn't start, you are mad as crap. Guess what kids don't care, some are made to be there and some like being with their friends. We do this for fun, OK I do this for fun some might not. It's people who complain about everything that takes the fun out of it. Females in heat are the first things brought to the forefront when little Johnny would rather sit in the truck and relax.


So now your are saying not only do you cheat and break the rules but you would not do it if someone pays you?


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Vicki your right and I don't think anyone would say that male dogs are not affected by females. Some males don't care if they are in heat or not, but to say we should leave them home because they might be coming in or going out is not going to happen. Now if that is being unethical then I guess female owners are unethical and only male owners are ethical.

Corey, I can be paid off. Sorry got a daughter in college so $1000.00 would go far. Man you can sure read between the lines with my post, what do you do for a living. You must be a detective, because you can really put the pieces to the puzzle together.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Vicki your right and I don't think anyone would say that male dogs are not affected by females. Some males don't care if they are in heat or not, but to say we should leave them home because they might be coming in or going out is not going to happen. Now if that is being unethical then I guess female owners are unethical and only male owners are ethical.
> 
> Corey, I can be paided off. Sorry got a daughter in college so $1000.00 would go far.


So your also saying you are cheap


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> Vicki your right and I don't think anyone would say that male dogs are not affected by females. Some males don't care if they are in heat or not, but to say we should leave them home because they might be coming in or going out is not going to happen. Now if that is being unethical then I guess female owners are unethical and only male owners are ethical.=QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I don't think many if any on here would suggest that you leave your female dog home on the off chance that she is going to come into season. I guess the question is, what should the owner of a female dog who comes into season after traveling to a field trial do? That would be a tough ethical call, but I think most owners of said dog would scratch their dog and head home. I don't know how much of your argument with BBG was just for the sake of arguing, but I was getting the impression that you thought the AKC rule was stupid and that the owners of male dogs should just get over it.
> ...


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> but to say we should leave them home because they might be coming in or going out is not going to happen.


The rule book does not care where the females in heat are located just as long as it isn’t on the test grounds. If they come in while you are on the road you have to find a way to accommodate them…YOU are the one that decided to own and run a female so figure it out.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I've never said the rule was stupid and never said dogs in heat should be on the grounds. Most wouldn't want to run their female in heat in the first place because most females in heat are more confused than males. Like I said at the beginning I wouldn't have posted at all and I knew some would get mad but you hear this over and over again and it gets old. My dog didn't do good because a female was in heat at the FT/HT. Man I don't see how males ever win if that is the case, because on any giving weekend there will be a female that is putting out a sweet smell. Thats the game we play and people with male dogs will have to deal with it until we run same sex events. I'm sure some would be stupid enough to run a female in heat, but I bet most didn't know. The thread started with someone complaining because his dog was dropped and another one posted that he didn't know what he was talking about.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> The thread started with someone complaining because his dog was dropped and another one posted that he didn't know what he was talking about.


You obviously don't know Tim West well.

I don't see how you precieved him complaining rather than protecting an important part of the rules. As if any rule is any more important than another.

Tim is an accomplished dog man and you can routinely hear him speak of his dogs performances in a joking manner when things don't go well for them. 

Personally, I don't see how this thread lasted as long as it did.

What is there to talk about?

If a bitch is in season, leave or remove her from the grounds. In the case there is judgement needed to proclaim such, the integrity of the owner should prevail.


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

If, as Tim says in his original post, a bitch in heat directly contributed to his and another dog being dropped in the AM, was a formal protest filed and the FTC convened to investigate the allegation? 

Kim, quit stirring up the s^?t. I'll see you in a couple of weeks,

Joe


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## awesmlab (Nov 13, 2003)

I don't have time to read through the 21 pages of responses so it's probably already been said, but I believe that all of the agility organizations prohibit bitches in heat. 

I compete with my border collies at sheepdog trials and there are no rules about bitches in heat. They compete with all of the other dogs and are allowed anywhere on the trial grounds. I've yet to see a dog quit working due to a bitch in heat being around or having been in the area.


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## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

Call me crazy but a dog that can't do his job simply because he smells somthing other than the rubber or feathers dpending on the test or trial situation probaly ought to be worked a little more to overcome that situation and by all means if a owner or pro comes to a trial with a bitch that is in heat they should be DQ'd and sent on there way but I just don't believe that is an excuse for a trainer to say my dog is all messed up in the head because he smelled a bitch that had to have been in heat. I've mostly raised gun dogs my entire life and do mostly HRC and AKC hunt tests but this is and always has been and unacceptale behavior in the blind or a test ground from any male I've ever worked with or hunted over.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Joe, I thought I was going have to get mad for a minute. You know I wouldn't stir no crap but this has been a fun discussion. I've even enjoyed bullgators remarks. Ken I don't know Tim at all and wouldn't doubt him, but the guy in question did post that he had his Vet check out the female and she wasn't in heat. Like I said males will be males and it doesn't take a female in heat for them to act stupid sometimes, look at badbullgator. We even have this problem ourselves sometimes.


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

jeff t. said:


> My understanding is that "in season" refers to the proestrus and estrus periods of the reproductive cycle and that it takes more than a simple swab to be absolutely sure. A female can be in proestrus for several days before there is any discharge, and can still be in estrus when the discharge has ceased.
> 
> Furthermore, the presence of vaginal discharge on a swab, while likely an indication of being in season, isn't absolutely conclusive either.
> 
> ...



Good post.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> You obviously don't know Tim West well.
> 
> I don't see how you precieved him complaining rather than protecting an important part of the rules. As if any rule is any more important than another.
> 
> ...



That is the substance of the discussion- the integrity of the owner of WHICH dog?

Just cause some dog gets the slack jawed horneys don't mean there is a candidate for his affection. It also don't mean that you get to impugn the ethics of your friends and neighbors.

So the deal is that if there is a chance to stick a few bucks in the wallet and breed Joe Bob's little hunting dawg between series it's OK but if old Bullet falls in love and loses his mark- well that's quite another thing altogether.

Surely you of all people would understand that.

More that one side to this discussion regards

Bubba


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2009)

Is this the rule you all are talking about? This came from the AKC Retriever Trial rules. If it isn't, sorry..... Just curious. Reading all this has been eye opening. I know that conformation shows are a real fun time..being sarcastic, by the way. Trying to keep a dog's head up and looking straight when a bitch has been in the ring before you is a trick. Conformation training is not as strenuous as what you all do. Pampered pooches go in the ring...lol....I know, I have handled some for some folks. But, I think we are all on the same page with trying to keep the boys focused. It isn't right to break any rule, no matter what rule it is. Just my two cents worth.
Section 5. Bitches In Season. Bitches in season
shall not be eligible for entry in any Hunting Test and
shall not be allowed on the grounds. Entry fees paid for
a bitch withdrawn because of coming in season or for a
dog withdrawn because of an injury or illness, or for a
dog that dies, shall be refunded in full by the test-giving
club. Prior to paying such refund, the club may require
an appropriate veterinary certificate. In the event a
dog is withdrawn for other reasons, the test-giving club
is free to formulate its own policy with reference to
refunds provided that said policy shall be fixed in
advance of the mailing of the premium list for any
particular Test.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Surely you of all people would understand that.


Don't understand that quote. It's mute though.

Discuss all you want.

There is always more than one side to every story.

But there is generally only one truthful one.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, I find it pretty interesting that we have this many pages on a subject that is outlined pretty clearly in the regs. The biggest issue seems to be peoples unwillingness to go on record, write up the complaint and take it to the committee. If you're not willing to do that, then run your male dog and take you're chances....


/Paul


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Tim is a good man and a good friend.
Bob is a good man and a good friend.
Both work hard for the sport.

I wasn't there. 
I don't know what the circumstances were.
I don't know if this is about Tim's dog and Bob's dog.
I am amazed at how many people who weren't there are willing to offer opinions about what happened.
I wasn't there and so I am not - unlike so many people - willing to offer opinions about what happened and what should be done.

What I do know is this:
1) There is a rule against running bitches in heat
2) There is a rule against have bitches in heat on the trial grounds
3) Anyone who says that a male is who affected by bitch scent is simply poorly trained has not been around enough males. 

Beyond that this thread is simply about some people who enjoy stirring the pot and nothing more.

Ted


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Don't understand that quote. It's mute though.
> 
> Discuss all you want.
> 
> ...


Mute, does that mean we can't hear it? Didn't Jessie Jackson make a moo... I mean mute point once.

Guess I don't unnerstand the quote either if it can't be heard.

Bubba eennoneseeate better nest time.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Ted sorry if I got under your skin, but it seems female owners always get the blame. I don't go to a lot of field trails, but I'm at hunt test just about every weekend. This is something that gets on my nerves when someone has to complain because their dog didn't do good. I'm sure Tim felt he got dropped because a female was in heat and I'm sure Bob isn't lying that a Vet said his dog wasn't in heat. Both are probably true gentlemen and wouldn't do anything unethical. The train, don't complain is a hunt test statement (maybe a FT statement also)cause someone is always complaining about the test, judges or something else because they didn't get a ribbon. Please accept my apology.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Maverick said:


> From what I have read not only do you not want to follow rules but your ethic are only about your ribbon and no one else.


Mav,

I have never stated that I condone rule breaking. I even state it there Rules I believe are meant to be followed. I states it right there rules should be followed. As far as a ribbon, if my girls are not in heat I will run them. That is the rules. I like reading this thread now that the truth is out. Makes the truth hurt don't it.

You need to read all of my statements to understand what I am talking about.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Cory, since I could be written up and banned from the AKC for having a bitch in heat on the grounds, would you please tell me when these bitch's will go into heat next? I've got trials to run between May 29 and August 6 this year.

Bam's heats, born 1 Dec 2003:
Aug 29, 2005
March 2, 2007
Sept 21 2007 brought in by ovuplant had 3 puppies 1 Dec 2007
Aug 19, 2008

Missy, born 15 January 2006, has had one heat starting on January 2, 2009. She was bred and whelped 5 pups 16 March 18, 2009.

Thanks a lot,


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Howard he is jerk for keeping that special calender to himself. I went to wally world last night and they didn't have them in stock. If I had something like that I would be rich, because I'm cheap and can be paid off. How many female owners know within a week or 2 when there females are going to come in. I sure don't because when you put them under stress from training it screws up their cycle. I guess if they are couch potatoes bon bon dogs then some might have the same cycle. What about when they start to age, do they keep the same cycle then?


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Cory, since I could be written up and banned from the AKC for having a bitch in heat on the grounds, would you please tell me when these bitch's will go into heat next? I've got trials to run between May 29 and August 6 this year.
> 
> Bam's heats, born 1 Dec 2003:
> Aug 29, 2005
> ...



I think you’re kind of missing the point…know one gives two squirts of piss when your bitch comes in heat except YOU…just don’t show up on the test grounds with her or you have broken the rules. If you make a mistake man up to it and take corrective actions.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> I think you’re kind of missing the point


No Patrick you are missing the point of Howards post. Corey has a special calandar that he can predict when females will be in season. You might want to read posts above before jumping on Howard about his post.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> If you make a mistake man up to it


Remember, your dealing with FT folks here...


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

That's Bad....


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

I came home Saturday night and started this thread because I was pretty dang frustrated because I perceived that my dog was directly dropped because of interference with Bob Lindgren's dog. 

I did not intend to call out Bob personally, but his post on page 16 put all of the pieces together and now I have to post just to try to clear up this mess. 

Here's the "rest of the story".

Saturday afternoon, land blind in the Am at Sooner. The line is on a pond dam where a barb wire fence runs parallel to the line. The mat is backed up pretty close to the fence. The holding blind is to the left of the line, upwind from the mat. It's is pretty close, about five yards away or so and the wind is howling. The holding blind is set tight to the fence, closed to the line, There is only one way in, and one way out. You watch the dog ahead of you run, he leaves, you exit the blind left and go to the line.

I am running Roux, and he does a nice job on the blind. He's returning to the line and I'm chatting with the judges. As he comes to the mat I reach down to take the bird and he SPITS it out, probably a foot away from my hand, and races over to the holding blind. It happens so fast I am shocked, run after him telling him to heel and get him out of the blind, with no hands or force but a whole lot of loud yelling. I'm yelling for him to heel and I am able to talk him out of the holding blind and Bob and his dog by telling him to heel. I get him to the mat to pick the bird up which he does and I put the lead on him and leave. It's obvious to me that Bob's dog was in heat at that moment, because Roux doesn't have a mean bone in his body and that behavior tells me only one thing, the dog is smelling like a gal dog smells when she's ready. Bob's dog growled at Roux during this melee, which is understandable when a big guy like Roux all of a sudden is in there so fast in such a small space. In fairness to Bob, he did tell the judges that his dog was the one growling, not Roux.

I wished I had called for the judges to check the Bob's dog right then, but I didn't. I assumed that they would understand what had happened and I would be judged accordingly.

When the callbacks came I was dropped. So was Bob, but for apparently for failing the land blind, not for what happened in the holding blind. One of the judges came over and asked me what was up with Roux, cause he's not usually the kind of dog that would act that way towards another male. I was surprised because I just assumed they knew the dog was a female in the blind. The call name on the program is Winner, so I guess that's why they thought that. In any event, they said they were sorry that he was out of control but had no choice but to drop me. I'm OK with that and was OK with it then. Both are friends, both had a great trial with very good tests.

I have thought about maybe another female being in season that was in the blind before me. I don't think that was the case, as I sat with Roux in the blind right before he ran and he was very calm and sat quietly while I scratched his ears. 

By the time callbacks were given and discussions with the judges ensued, everybody was gone and the whole thing was over. I came home, wrote the post and have been pretty amazed that a little rant on my part has grown to this current thread.

I'm not one to whine about some bitch scent on the grounds although I have had dogs severely affected by it. This case seemed to be extreme to me, and I will go to my grave thinking that my dog was affected by Bob's dog. 

Whether she was in season according to the rules of the game is the question. That can only be answered by the owner of the dog. He claims she was not and I claim she was. If it's his word against mine, I'm sticking with what I saw from my dog.

If he wants to produce papers from his working vet that says she was not, then I'm on record with pie on my face. I will own up to it and with a heartfelt apology say I'm sorry. I have already told this to Bob in a private post.

The reality is this; I'm sorry that I ever posted anything. It's not worth the trouble it has caused and I'm sorry for the hurt feelings it has created. I have learned my lesson.

Tim West


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## Chris S. (Dec 15, 2004)

Corey (BBG) was left hanging in the wind on this thread. So if this thread does not make as much sense is because at least one person who feels the same as Corey, has gone in and deleted or edited their thread. Yesterday the poster basically said that the bitch should not be run several weeks before, and several weeks after the bleeding. That is why I posted my example. I wanted that person to publicly state that I should have not run my female before any evidence of bleeding. I guess he got skeeeerd.



windycanyon said:


> After a heat cycle, I doubt (since we all swim our dogs regularly) that she should still be throwing that much scent, but again, if in doubt, give her chlorophyll. You can find it at health food stores for ~$10 a bottle of 100. 1 a day seems to do the trick for mine.


Anne this is interesting.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> No Patrick you are missing the point of Howards post. Corey has a special calandar that he can predict when females will be in season. You might want to read posts above before jumping on Howard about his post.


No I got the point...you're not understanding...on the test grounds no one cares if Corey has a calendar or not...they only care if the bitch is hot or not...you all are making this harder than it needs to be. Don’t take a hot bitch on the test grounds it is against the rules...if you don’t know how to tell go find someone who knows. It isn’t the FT or HT committee’s job to tell you only to enforce the rules….which they don’t typically.


And for your information…Howard isn’t that delicate...I doubt his feeling are hurt.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Tim;

In the original post you stated that it affected your dog and another dog. Can you give some info on how it affected the next dog to run and did it affect the remaining males after that?

Just curious.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Chris S. said:


> Corey (BBG) was left hanging in the wind on this thread. So if this thread does not make as much sense is because at least *one person who feels the same as Corey*, has gone in and deleted or edited their thread. Yesterday the poster basically *said that the bitch should not be run several weeks before,* and several weeks after the bleeding. That is why I posted my example. I wanted that person to publicly state that I should have not run my female before any evidence of bleeding. I guess he got skeeeerd.
> 
> 
> 
> Anne this is interesting.


 
Now hold on a minute there Chris...my answer was

_Sorry Chris I didn’t mean to ignore you. No I think you did the right thing. You knew she was coming in and monitored her right up to the time. Now would you have pulled her if you went back to the hotel Saturday night and found she had started? _
_*I would not have run my girl that close especially if I was so worried that I was checking her, but that is me. If she had not started you were within the rules*. *My only question, and the reason I would not have run one of my bitches in that situation, is what if she started in the truck just before you went to the line, or even while running the series? No test or trail is so important to me that I can’t sit one out. Do I think a post heat bitch still smells good and can drive some dogs crazy, of course, but it is not against the rules. That is the point where you have to ponder what John wrote a page or so back.*_

Where exactly did I say I feel bitches should not be run for weeks before or after. IN fact I even said I thought you did the right thing to monitor her to make sure she had not started. I said I would not have but my reason is more that since I know she is that close I may have to pull her and why take that risk or having her come in a screw someone else up and sepnding money on travle and hotels just to pull her. I think I pretty clearly said running them is within the rules. Please do not put a meaning to my words that is not there. I don't give a flip if people run there dogs 2 days before she comes in nor do I care if they run the after she is done. What I said is it is fine and within the rules but at that point it become about you and if you feel like it is worth the posibility of having her come in during the test at your expence as well as the expence of others.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> No Patrick you are missing the point of Howards post. Corey has a special calandar that he can predict when females will be in season. You might want to read posts above before jumping on Howard about his post.


Kim is that all you got? I don’t believe I ever said you could pinpoint the exact day. What I said is that you can get it down to how often your dog comes in. Mine are regular and I can come within a week or so. Howard’s dog seems to come in every 6-8 months barring the time that she was pregnant. It is pretty obvious you know more than the rest of us and have an exception to everything and an excuse for ever rule to be broken. Its all good you keep on doing what you do. Bring you bitch’s that are in heat and park them on the grounds because you couldn’t tell or didn’t know, or had to meet somebody, or are just an asshole who doesn’t feel rules apply to him

The rule says females in season are not allowed on the grounds. You can continue taking all the crap you like. The rule says no females in season on the grounds. You can go on for more pages beating your chest and one uping and the rule still says no females in season allowed on the grounds. You can have a dog that cycles every 4 months of one year and then every 14 months for the next 5 and the rule still says no females in season allowed on the grounds. You can park you truck on a public road near the test and the rule still says, females in season shall not be allowed on the grounds. You can be a complete idiot and not be able to tell when your dog is in heat and the rule still says……
Get the point?? Probably not and if you do you don’t care


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

I don't think I want to publicly drag that person into this. They view RTF and can make that call.

There were not many dogs left to run after I ran Roux. The other dog that I referenced did run after Roux and Bob's dog, but what happened specifically I won't comment on.


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## Chris S. (Dec 15, 2004)

Corey - my follow up post was more about how other posters really got the pot going then changed their posts and you were the only one left taking a hard stand for that side of the discussion.

I wish I had quoted this other post I'm thinking of, but I did not. Perhaps the poster was being sarcastic when he suggested females should not run when they are due to come in season in the next few weeks.

The rules are clear about who can and cannot run or be on the grounds. It was pretty wild yesterday when these cowboys were typing that a dog could not run if it was near the time of coming in season. Those were some ridiculous statements.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Corey you are a trip, please go back find any post that I said females in heat on the grounds is ok. I said this is going to happen just about ever weekend, so deal with it but I never said it was OK. You are the one that come up with stupid post about knowing when your dog would come in. Go drink your coffee, chill out and try to post something that makes sense. 

Thanks Tim for clearing up the situation that happened, I'm sure Bob did get his female checked out and I hope you have no hard feelings toward him. If his female was putting out a smell that cause your male problems and she wasn't in heat then what should be done? Could a female not in heat cause your dog to do what it did? Just asking? Sorry Tim for making a big deal out of this thread but like I said many times this happens just about every weekend and the female is always the blame.

I guess Ted is still brain dead from reading my post because he hasn't accepted my apology.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)




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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks Ken, my wife feels the same way.

One question, am I the only one on this thread that has heard over and over again that my male dog messed up because a female was in heat on the grounds? I guess this doesn't happen very often unless I'm there. Maybe it's the odor I put off that causes problems.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Top Ten Excuses for Poor Performance

10. the sun was in his/her eyes
9. the bird boy was talking
8. someone in the gallery is wearing white
7. that wasn't a pop, he/she heard a whistle from the other stake
6. that wasn't a pop, a bird made a sound like a whistle
5. he didn't see the mark because a fly was buzzing around
4. this is the first time I've run him/her
3. she is coming in heat
2. she just came out of heat
1. I'm just a crummy handler


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

You missed one EdA

11. the handler is a friend of the judges


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

New breeding policy for Roux: Any time, any place, any bitch, any breed.
Guarantees: National Derby List if run in 2 or more trials.
Health Requirements: Bitch must have a pulse.

Public service announcement: We will be at Metro this weekend.



fp


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Bayou Magic said:


> New breeding policy for Roux: Any time, any place, any bitch, any breed.
> Guarantees: National Derby List if run in 2 or more trials.
> Health Requirements: Bitch must have a pulse.
> 
> ...


Can you gaurantee atomatic IFC before 2 years old?


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Bayou Magic said:


> New breeding policy for Roux: Any time, any place, any bitch, any breed.
> Guarantees: National Derby List if run in 2 or more trials.
> Health Requirements: Bitch must have a pulse.
> 
> ...


just wondering how many pups have been on the derby list out of your dog?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

It was a joke. Do you have absolutely no sense of humor?


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

It seems that some posters just chose to either ignore the warning about stopping the personal attacks or they just don't care.

The situation was posted, questioned and an explanation was given by the OP to the situation.

Stop the personal attacks or this thread will be closed.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i was simply wonting to know. Sorry wasnt tring to attack anyone.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Corey, how do you get this:


> Howard’s dog seems to come in every 6-8 months barring the time that she was pregnant


out of this?


> Bam's heats, born 1 Dec 2003:
> Aug 29, 2005
> March 2, 2007
> Sept 21 2007 brought in by ovuplant had 3 puppies 1 Dec 2007
> ...


She's only gone in once at 6 months and that's when I induced her heat with an ovuplant, and never at 8 months.


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## blindfaith (Feb 5, 2006)

Tim( if you are not too messed up to even continue reading these posts) and anyone else,
I always ran females and felt that the male owners were whiners at times as has been adequately covered by Kim and others. Then I run a male..sold at two with no breedings..still no problems. Then I start running a couple of males and start getting some breedings, then a lot of breedings. I train with females in season and do everything I can to avoid the situation in which Tim found himself. Anytime I feel the words " there's a bitch in season running" I remember and wonder if the Lord is telling me something. Yes, males will do a lot of smelling and the like and they will mess up. But I've been around long enough to know when they are looking for the female and not the bird.
Only once have I had a male fail for that reason and everyone knew that something weird had happened and it was building up to a finale all day not just with my dog. Mention it to anyone in charge and you get the same " Yeah, Right" response mentioned so often in some posts. I did not complain because the situation was less clear as to who the offender was. At a recent hunt test a pro friend of mine asked me if it was possible that my female was coming in. I said yes but neither of my males were giving her a moments notice. We checked anyway both by swabbing and by putting the males out with her. If they had reacted positively I would have scratched even though she was not showing blood.
In the interests of science when Ruff( prospective mother) comes into season I'm going to run her and Morgan( prospective father) next to each other( about 5 feet and her upwind) and see what happens. Will Morgan run and then come back and try for a breeding? Will he try for a breeding and then run? Will he run and come back to heel waiting for the next setup? I think I know the answer but whatever I would not want to be running an all age stake at the time! I WILL POST THE RESULTS and it should be soon.
Also, even though an infection can bring on the male instincts, the males can be called off and then ran effectively. We've had this happen recently.
Hey, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you!
Bill Butikas


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Wow, I'm so confused. 

Howard you wouldn't know because you don't have his calendar in front of you.

Vicki please PM me if I went to far because I did use words that would be consider attacking. I'm not trying to use excusses, but some women posters PM'ed me and got me started. So I'm blaming everything that I posted on the women members......


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

No PMs necessary, as I'm not the least upset.

I've had males react to females at trials. It happens even when females are NOT in season. _I have a friend who had a spayed female that all the boys liked--all the time. It was impossible for her to be in heat! I also ran a circuit with a female that smelled good every day of her life_.

Training will help overcome some of the distractions to the boys. It will never completely eliminate it. The more males are bred, the more they are interested in girls. The upside of that is, that once the boys become more experienced--especially if they are bred frequently--they seem to be able to distinguish between merely being "in" and being "ready".

I think one of the worst things--well maybe two of the worst things that can happen with males/females at field trials is breeding at a trial. I say this because if the male is bred at trials, how will he be able to distinguish what his job really is. If he only retrieves birds at trials, regardless of the females around/near, then he associates trials, not with breeding, but with his work. If he is only bred at home, or at a motel or other non-trial location, he associates breeding with not being at a trial. Is this foolproof--NO. Can it help, I should think so since dogs learn by repetition in all aspects of their life--instinctive traits notwithstanding.

Not to belittle anyone, and this is NOT directed at Tim (a good friend) or Bob (another good friend), but as has been pointed out, most people look for a good excuse for poor performance. The bitch in heat on the grounds has been used alot. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but not as much as people would like to think--at least in FTs. 

If I have a female that comes in heat during a trial or enroute to a trial, she will be scratched from competition. Period. My boys will be just as affected to come to line or sit on a mat that has blood on it as anyone else's dog. Personally, I don't think I know anyone who would not do that--scratch immediately once discovered. But...there will have to be real evidence of heat, not just some dog salivating over wishful thinking.

One other thing to consider for those of you with males that breed during a trial--even if not on "the grounds"....if you stand the male to a female, the male will also carry the scent on him!


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

kip said:


> just wondering how many pups have been on the derby list out of your dog?


Kip, 

Ammo, currently at 41 points with about 6 months left, is the only one I'm aware of that has been run in more than 1 derby. That was not his first litter, but one of the earlier litters (that my senior brain) can recall. I've had some excellent reports out of several more owners from subsequent litters, but those pups are still young. There is one pup out of David Wisenor's litter that earned HRCH at 14 months old that will probably take a shot at some derbies, and I believe that Kevin Norman in Baton Rouge is planning on running trials with his. I'm guessing Kevin's pup is 12-14 months old, but not sure without checking my records. I'm sure I have left some out (sorry), maybe they will speak up.

Roux is an EIC carrier and as a result his breedings have essentially stopped. This is one instance where the stigma of being a carrier isn't doing anybody any favors. As many owners will testify he has thrown some really nice pups.

fp


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Vicki Worthington said:


> No PMs necessary, as I'm not the least upset.
> 
> I've had males react to females at trials. It happens even when females are NOT in season. _I have a friend who had a spayed female that all the boys liked--all the time. It was impossible for her to be in heat! I also ran a circuit with a female that smelled good every day of her life_.
> 
> ...



Exactly! great post.


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## Jim Drager (Jun 12, 2005)

It's a darn shame when a community of people, built upon a common interest, attack each other over silly issues. Look folks, the Anti's want your guns, want you to stop field trials, don't want your dogs in crates to begin with. Yet, we spend our energy ripping each other to shreds. It makes no sense. How bout we support each other instead?

It's why I lurk, and seldom respond. Vickie, you do a great job in moderating..its a shame you have to do it.

Bitch's in heat. I have a Golden bitch, that has run in HT's and some FT's. I normally run males.

Like many things about her, she cycles when she darn well pleases. Forget the calendar...totally useless. Her window is about 3-4 months. I have also had a number of females in for breeding over the years. Most had a window of about 2 months. So, if you have a bitch, all you can do is check and act responsibly when it happens.

I have discussed this very issue with an AKC rep years ago regarding "on the grounds". On the grounds in his interpretation was physically out of the truck "on the ground". He felt it an unrealistic and draconian expectation for the clubs to know what happens inside trucks, such as heat cycles, pinch collars, etc. I was judging--a handler & committee person, far away from home had a bitch unexpectedly come in season, and we sought the opinion of the Rep.

So, by this standard, if you have a bitch in season you are ok in the truck. If you air the bitch, do it off of the grounds---you will be in compliance, considerate and ethical. 

IMHO, if a male's performance is affected because a bitch in season is in a vehicle--that is a weak excuse for someone looking for an excuse.

Jim Drager


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Bayou Magic said:


> Kip,
> 
> Ammo, currently at 41 points with about 6 months left, is the only one I'm aware of that has been run in more than 1 derby. That was not his first litter, but one of the earlier litters (that my senior brain) can recall. I've had some excellent reports out of several more owners from subsequent litters, but those pups are still young. There is one pup out of David Wisenor's litter that earned HRCH at 14 months old that will probably take a shot at some derbies, and I believe that Kevin Norman in Baton Rouge is planning on running trials with his. I'm guessing Kevin's pup is 12-14 months old, but not sure without checking my records. I'm sure I have left some out (sorry), maybe they will speak up.
> 
> ...


 thats great! 41 point and has six months is super. should make a strong run at high point derby dog. its a shame the breedings have stopped because of him being a carrier. people need to learn to use that as a tool.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks Vicki, just didn't know for sure, but I still blame y'all women for making me go out of my mind.

Jim what a post, didn't think about the tools used on trucks that are not supposed to be on the grounds.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> as has been pointed out, most people look for a good excuse for poor performance. The bitch in heat on the grounds has been used alot. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but not as much as people would like to think--at least in FTs.



Vicki;

I had one of those bitches, used to catch a lot of grief at obedience trials. Once had 3 males leave their down-stay to come and "court" her. Yup, she was spayed. Didn't matter, the owners of those dogs still were convinced she was coming in heat!

Ed: my favorite excuse "My dog rode the short bus here."

Lisa


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Lisa,

I'm sure there are plenty more that fall into the "always" smells good category!

The best attempt at an excuse--or should I say most amusing--would be the guy I was judging once a long time ago who told me that his dog didn't see the bird fall (it was a single)? He looked very expectantly as if he would get a re-run. I was a little surprised, but simply asked him, "If the dog wasn't looking, why did you call for the bird?" He was speechless!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I've got a buddy that I train with that has 2 females that are spayed, one will still stand for males. I had a male that wouldn't breed, he would try for a couple of seconds, then he would quit. We brought her over and he tied within minutes. Go figure.

We as males don't need an excuse, so why would we think our male dogs are any different.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> I've got a buddy that I train with that has 2 females that are spayed, one will still stand for males. I had a male that wouldn't breed, he would try for a couple of seconds, then he would quit. We brought her over and he tied within minutes. Go figure.


I think in the adult film industry they call them "fluffers" :razz::razz:


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Vicki;
> 
> I had one of those bitches, used to catch a lot of grief at obedience trials. Once had 3 males leave their down-stay to come and "court" her. Yup, she was spayed. Didn't matter, the owners of those dogs still were convinced she was coming in heat!
> 
> ...


Lisa, you can't have that one, I have been using it for 2 years.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

We call them checkers in the south. That was what they used in the old days when breeding horses, but it was the other way around. They would send in their checker to see if the mare was ready.

Hey that is the solutions, we should have male checkers at head quarters, if they try to mount and the female lets them then they have to scratch.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

2tall said:


> Lisa, you can't have that one, I have been using it for 2 years.


But, is it really an excuse?

Or is it a sad commentary on a sorry state of affairs?

It Is What It Is Regards;

Lisa


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## LabLady101 (Mar 17, 2006)

Bayou Magic said:


> Roux is an EIC carrier and as a result his breedings have essentially stopped. This is one instance where the stigma of being a carrier isn't doing anybody any favors. As many owners will testify he has thrown some really nice pups.
> 
> fp


I'm sorry to hear this as well. I agree with Kip that folks really just need to learn how to use the test as the tool it was meant to be.

Btw, I have a Ryder bitch I would've highly considered taking to Roux (for a Ryder linebreeding) if she'd been Clear. But, alas, she too is Carrier...




As far as the rest of the thread, it's interesting that the AKC Rep Jim talked to defined "on the grounds" as physically out of the truck. I think some of the confusion surrounding the phrase would be cleared up if AKC made an official definition of it so as to not leave it up to the interpretation of the FTC and/or the internet masses. Something to think about also is that "on the grounds" has been extended to mean host hotels (those listed in the premium), in many instances, as well. Even the definition of "in" seems to be surrounded by some confusion. (Someone, don't remember who, alluded to "in" as being defined as just the physical bleeding. I find that very interesting because it's actually the time after the bleeding stops that I worry about the most.) I don't think anyone is out to break or bend the rules. I just think there is some confusion surrounding the rules that should be officially cleared up. 

Personally, I'd never run my bitches while they're "in". If it weren't against the rules (hypothetically here;-)), it would hardly be the best time to run them anyway. As someone put it, they can't "find their way out of a paper bag" and are just as messed up as any male. However, I'm also not going to miss an opportunity to run them when they're not (as long as they're not already or still affected by it themselves)- whether it be 1 day before they're "in" or 1 day after they're done (and I mean totally done, bleeding + about 3 weeks).

It also amazes me to hear that there are several breedings taking place at tests & trials. (Ok, so call me new.) Folks are complaining about bitches who are "in" being "on the grounds", yet are doing breedings at tests & trials. There's just something about this picture that doesn't make one ounce of sense to me (Ok, so call me new, again)...

JMHO, of course...


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

How many people do you think breed on the grounds? I know of one, but that is something no one would admit to. Now you are talking about grounds being at the motel, that is going a little far with that rule. That rules means we need conduct ourselves at the motel so not to put a black eye on the sport.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Damn, all this talk about females coming in and I have a hunt test this weekend.....guess what, the female that was slated to run in started for her 2nd and 3rd passes is starting to attract the boys. She is swollen, not oozing, but I am leaving her home. Yes it's inconvienent as heck for our training/titling schedule, but rules are rules and I wasn't taught by nuns for eight years for nothing!! Now I have to make a decision as to whether I want a refund or talk to the hunt secretary for a switch with a different dog since they have a lot of openings in started for both days.


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## Black N Gold (Jan 14, 2009)

Has anyone brought up the fact that putting a bitch in season in water can be risky? Why chance an infection? Personally I have intact bitches and a male. My male respects the girls up until they go into heat. And after that he is nuts. So there is no training for, excuse to or reason to run a bitch in heat.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Black N Gold said:


> Has anyone brought up the fact that putting a bitch in season in water can be risky?


"Fact"?

What is the basis for this?


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Blood attracts sharks..............


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## LabLady101 (Mar 17, 2006)

kimsmith said:


> Now you are talking about grounds being at the motel, that is going a little far with that rule. That rules means we need conduct ourselves at the motel so not to put a black eye on the sport.


I don't like it being taken that far either, but it has happened. Folks who commit abuses of the rules (from trashing rooms all the way down to leaving your dog's poop on the ground) at the host hotels have been subject to fines &/or suspensions. Some clubs have gone as far as to state as much up front in their premiums. Therefore, these clubs have obviously interpreted "on the grounds" to the extreme. However, since there's no official definition, they obviously are within their rights to do so. We can disagree with it all we like, but it is what it is.




> Has anyone brought up the fact that putting a bitch in season in water can be risky? Why chance an infection? Personally I have intact bitches and a male. My male respects the girls up until they go into heat. And after that he is nuts. So there is no training for, excuse to or reason to run a bitch in heat.


Great point!


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

jeff t. said:


> "Fact"?
> 
> What is the basis for this?


I would like to know this also, since my dog swims during.....


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> I would like to know this also, since my dog swims during.....


Mine too. Everyone I know does.

Vets??????????


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I'll try to explain, but I'm not vet. When a dog comes into heat their cervix will open up and this will allow bacteria into the female. After they go out or they are breed the cervix will close. If they are breed, then around 35 to 45 days the cervix will start to open again. I've never had a problem with this, but there is a chance.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I have heard this also. I have friends that won't swim their bitches when they are in heat. Both are breeders. It makes sense I guess - dirty water = possible infection..

Juli


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## DogSquaw (Dec 22, 2007)

If I was the bitch in question I sure wouldnt strip down and go swimming in "ye olde mud hole" so I keep my dogs out of the water at this time also. Fact or not makes sense to me.


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## skoog (Oct 17, 2003)

Well Tim and I have been PMing each other for the past few days as facts regarding Winner being in season have become available. For those of you who have been so outspoken on either side of the issue I hope this will give you some idea of the complexities involved and perhaps cause you to cut some slack for people with differing ideas.

Tim and I have resolved our issues amicably, I hope that you all will be able to also.

Here's what happened:

Monday I took Winner to my vet to have her checked. She didn't have time for a thorough check but took a swipe with a cloth and said that Winner didn't appear to be in season, could I come back Tuesday for a swab and smear. For those of you who have never been to a National the process she used on Monday was the same as at a National.

Tuesday Winner was swabbed and the slide checked. She had a vaginal infection and this apparently masks the ability of the vet to determine if she was in season. There was no blood or discharge on the swab. This test is more than would be done at a National or weekend trial and was still inconclusive. The vet suggested a progesterone check so we drew blood. 

Wednesday (today) the vet called and said Winner is anestrous, which means not in season but in the period between seasons.

The vaginal infection can produce odors which some dogs interpret as the bitch being in season with predictable results. I am sorry that it affected Roux that way and feel bad for Tim.

The net result is that it took two vets three different checks and three days to make a definitive determination and a slide to even determine that there was an infection. Since this is not practical at a test or trial we are all going to have to make sure we do what is ethically right ourselves and rely on the other participants good sportsmanship.

I find it amazing that Tim and I were relatively easily able to resolve our differences and yet this thread generated such heated discussion.

Bob Lindgren


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Bob, what a stand up thing to do. 

I am glad the guilty until proven innocent worked out for you.;-)


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

skoog said:


> Well Tim and I have been PMing each other for the past few days as facts regarding Winner being in season have become available. For those of you who have been so outspoken on either side of the issue I hope this will give you some idea of the complexities involved and perhaps cause you to cut some slack for people with differing ideas.
> 
> Tim and I have resolved our issues amicably, I hope that you all will be able to also.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info Bob. It sounds like you were absolutely within the rules to me.

Takes much, much more than a slobbering, tooth chattering dog to prove a bitch is in season.

By the way, great name for your girl!


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

> I find it amazing that Tim and I were relatively easily able to resolve our differences and yet this thread generated such heated discussion.


Knowing both you and Tim, I don't find it amazing at all!

These type threads *always* generate such heated discussion here.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Thanks Bob for sharing your side of the story. It makes sense. 

Stuff happens.

gee, did someone say that already? 

Just in the last couple of days I have noticed my male is quite attracted to my female (much more so than usual - as in nose plastered to her butt). She is not due in heat for another 4 weeks...she is not yet swollen or even showing signs of being in heat (she gets 'goofy' as all get out). But I would not doubt if she comes in a couple weeks early by the way my boy is acting around her....

Juli


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks Bob, I'm glad you and Tim worked out the problem. I'm sure Tim offered his apologizes to you also. I would hope there is no one at FT or HT that would on purpose cause another dog problems. The only problem I had was male dog owners always blaming the females. We can't stop mother nature, (dog that smells like they are in heat) but hope our training and dogs will over come these at a FT/HT. Sorry if anyone thought I was stirring the pot and I probably wouldn't have posted if the same thing didn't happen the weekend before when I was judging.


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