# Scooter bit my son



## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

I wasn't home, went to the grocery store. I got back both children were in tears. Scooter (almost 3 Y.O. intact male) bit my son (9 Y.O.) in the face. Caleb was playing with him and Hannah, my daughter, said Caleb got up in scooter's face. Scooter snapped him. It did not break the skin, but it's gonna leave a good mark. There was no warning. (I'm sure there was body language, but they can't read it) We got a new puppy Jan. 1, so his world has changed some. I don't know. I'm really disgusted right now. This happened like 30 min. ago.

I freaked a little. If it weren't for the wife and kids I'd be in the back yard digging a hole right now. You better not freaking bite my son, I don't care how good a dog you are.

Tell me it'll be O.K. Just keep him kenneled when I'm not there. It isn't that unusual for a dog to react that way when someone, especially a little one, gets in their face and is looking them in the eyes. I think exacerbated by the fact that I wasn't home at the time. And the new puppy.

The bad thing is I trusted him. I didn't think he would do that. I feel really let down. New rule, dad isn't home dog stays in kennel.

He never did it before, but he has warned me in the past and I didn't take it seriously enough. I have seen the stare and the body language with certain people that tells me he doesn't like them. I should have known he would try this dominance crap with Caleb. 

Part of the reason I feel so bad is I should have known this was coming and avoided it.

So what else?


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

just kick his ass a little and you'll be fine


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Terry, first of all I don't have kids, so can't even imagine the distress. But....yes, it will be ok. You know what to do, keep the dog away from the kids when you are not there. My Indy who never showed an aggressive bone in his body, has snapped at my husband twice, (no actual contact) when Ralph tried to make him go where he did not want to go, since the pup got home. He has also become much more clingy with me. Clearly, he feels his position is threatened. The more dominant dog, Scout, is happy as a lark. Who knows, but Scooters world is in flux and a little separation and quiet can't hurt. Good luck. I'm so sorry it happened.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Children should be taught not to challenge a dog in his face. The dog feels threatened and is only responding.

Sorry, but very glad your son was not seriously injured but the dog is not totally to blame.

My kids had a Cocker when they were small and had a friend over for play who held both her ears and barked at her in her face and she nipped his nose. No serious damage thank goodness but was a good lesson.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Terry

Regroup and get some advice from people who have had aggressive dogs/issues. The dogs are part of your family and they must behave, even when someone "gets in their space". Pete and Dr. Charles are really good with these issues, as is Kristie. This goes beyond a butt kicking, you are going to have to change your day to day interactions with him. You will have to be the boss, period. Tough noogies about the new puppy, there is no excuse for that behavior. Be very careful as meeting agression with agression just escaltes the problem. Take charge, he gets his freedom taken away from him, field work as normal, lots of exercise and he should be supervised when out with the family and kids. You already know the signs, when you see him meeting peoples eyes in a challenging manner, divert his attention immediately and make him heel to you and down or sit. He is still the same dog you love, he is just having growing pains and needs for you to give him boundaries. Good luck.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Cleo Watson said:


> Children should be taught not to challenge a dog in his face. The dog feels threatened and is only responding.
> 
> Sorry, but very glad your son was not seriously injured but the dog is not totally to blame.
> 
> My kids had a Cocker when they were small and had a friend over for play who held both her ears and barked at her in her face and she nipped his nose. No serious damage thank goodness but was a good lesson.


I agree with this 100 percent!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I also agree with Cleo.


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## DrCharlesBortellPhD (Sep 27, 2008)

thus another illustration as example of never allow any child, any age alone unsupervised with any dog. 

This exemplifies the numerous posts like "my breeder does not want to sell to me because I have kids", and similiar type posts. 

As mentioned, Lesson Learned, be glad it was not worse, and build from here on to avoid repeated behaviors (which can be impossible because the "trigger" may never be known).


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I've had experience with this and have witnessed a lot. My rules? Kids and dogs should not be left unattended. Your assessment of the situation now depends upon a description of the incident coming from distressed children. Don't expect to get an accurate account of what happened. 

All of the above advice from the others is good. Also, I would make it my business to do a lot of observing of the dynamics of dogs, children and adults in your household. 

You can make things good but parent to parent---will you now trust your dog?

Good luck in dealing with this.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Pals said:


> Terry
> 
> Regroup and get some advice from people who have had aggressive dogs/issues. The dogs are part of your family and they must behave, even when someone "gets in their space". Pete and Dr. Charles are really good with these issues, as is Kristie. This goes beyond a butt kicking, you are going to have to change your day to day interactions with him. You will have to be the boss, period. Tough noogies about the new puppy, there is no excuse for that behavior. Be very careful as meeting agression with agression just escaltes the problem. Take charge, he gets his freedom taken away from him, field work as normal, lots of exercise and he should be supervised when out with the family and kids. You already know the signs, when you see him meeting peoples eyes in a challenging manner, divert his attention immediately and make him heel to you and down or sit. He is still the same dog you love, he is just having growing pains and needs for you to give him boundaries. Good luck.


He is absolutely subordinate to me in every way. This didn't happen because he is allowed to feel his oats. I tolerate no crap. Cleo is right. This was an issue of my son not understanding dog behavior and getting in his face in a way that Scooter perceived as challenging. You guys are right. I should never have left the dog out with the kids. I really thought he was trustworthy. Never happen again.

He is not aggressive at all. He never growls at people. I have noticed that with some children and a very few adults he gives off aggressive body language. Very tense, starey eyed, tail erect, hackles up. he looks like he wants to bite them, but it is certain people and not very many of them. and never with my kids till now.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Just a heads up. You have a field dog with high prey drive? Watch what happens when the neighbor's kids are over and they start chasing your kids. Nevertheless, I do think you have a good attitude and will deal with this where everybody is a winner. Again, good luck.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

DrCharlesBortellPhD said:


> thus another illustration as example of never allow any child, any age alone unsupervised with any dog.
> 
> This exemplifies the numerous posts like "my breeder does not want to sell to me because I have kids", and similiar type posts.
> 
> As mentioned, Lesson Learned, be glad it was not worse, and build from here on to avoid repeated behaviors (which can be impossible because the "trigger" may never be known).


 

More food for thought: http://scienceblog.com/40047/study-shows-young-unsupervised-children-most-at-risk-for-dog-bites/

My brothers and I (ages 7-12) grew up w/ a massive Swiss St Bernard (180# house dog). If she had wanted to bite us, it'd have been horrible. What makes a family pet WANT to bite? That's the question I think Terry needs to ask. I don't think the mere addition of a puppy is any reason. I've been adding a puppy a year here the past several and haven't dealt w/any aggression. Have you considered getting some bloodwork done -- maybe he's got low thyroid or something?


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## DrCharlesBortellPhD (Sep 27, 2008)

I would not claim "aggressiveness" at this point. An "aggressive act" is NOT aggressiveness. Big difference. Various factors and dynamics that are unknown make the exact reason foggy. The child's reaction, interaction, situation dog in, etc. I would watch future interactions of dog & children and be prepared to intervene if needed. There may be no further incidents or the dog may have learned a new behavior on how to adapt and respond when a similar situation presents itself. 

The link stated to get rid of a dog with 1st bite. I disagree here because the "triggers" that precipitated the bite/snap is unknown and may have been actually caused, although inadvertently, by the child. 

Place No Blame on anyone, child or dog. This will only cause tension and friction which will be "picked up on" and interfere with future interactions.
Approach this situation as dictated, with caution, but work from there.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

DrCharlesBortellPhD said:


> I would not claim "aggressiveness" at this point. An "aggressive act" is NOT aggressiveness. Big difference. Various factors and dynamics that are unknown make the exact reason foggy. The child's reaction, interaction, situation dog in, etc. I would watch future interactions of dog & children and be prepared to intervene if needed. There may be no further incidents or the dog may have learned a new behavior on how to adapt and respond when a similar situation presents itself.
> 
> The link stated to get rid of a dog with 1st bite. I disagree here because the "triggers" that precipitated the bite/snap is unknown and may have been actually caused, although inadvertently, by the child.
> 
> ...


Thanks Doc, I concur.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

He's just the right age to be an arsehole...take the kids outta the picture an spend a few months straightenin' him out a bit would be my call...


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm surprised no one mentioned neutering him, which would be my first thought.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Leddyman;769715. [B said:


> There was no warning. (I'm sure there was body language, but they can't read it)[/B]
> *He never did it before, but he has warned me in the past and I didn't take it seriously enough. I have seen the stare and the body language with certain people that tells me he doesn't like them. I should have known he would try this dominance crap with Caleb. *
> 
> *I have noticed that with some children and a very few adults he gives off aggressive body language. Very tense, starey eyed, tail erect, hackles up. he looks like he wants to bite them, but it is certain people and not very many of them. and never with my kids till now. *


Terry- this is where my advice comes from. Dogs almost always give us signs, and these things tend to build. A small grumble, next showing teeth, etc.... At least that is my experience. One act does not make an aggressive, get rid of him, rotten dog. Had he bitten more one way or the other an eye could have been gone, bites are serious. I firmly believe children should always be supervised around dogs, kids don't know dog behavior or signs. You have an intact male who views you as the leader-period. Who knows what the trigger is, but I certainly don't blame the child and brush it off. I've raised kids with my dogs, my nieces are over here all the time. I have two dominant males, one that is intact. Zek spent a lot of time after he became ill, displaying "warnings" around my daughter, I nipped it in the bud immediately. Funny thing, when the girls get in his space now, he comes to me and puts his head in my lap. Sorry if I pissed you off, but like I said the above quotes tell me that you had warnings.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm surprised no one mentioned neutering him, which would be my first thought.


Why risk ruining a working retriever with a procedure that's been demonstrated to increase the incidence of aggression in general? 

Amy Dahl


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Terry,

I'm really sorry this happened. It must be so distressing for you and the family. You seem to be taking a sensible approach, granting the dog some latitude to be a dog, and focusing on the #1 rule according to my friend who specializes in aggression: "keep everyone safe at all times (including the dog)."

I'd like to throw it a couple of thoughts. One, dogs have excellent control over what they do with their mouths. Bites don't accidentally miss. I think a bite that doesn't break the skin is a dog trying to communicate something, not a dog trying to inflict damage. If, however, it achieved its goal, your dog may have learned something, i.e. that it works. Two, all this stuff about "dominance" is, in my opinion, a red herring that risks leading you away from pertinent, effective strategies. Aggression is said to be about "increasing social distance," and, while none of us was there, we do have a report that your son got in the dog's face, perhaps creating a sudden and urgent need for social distance.

Philosophical questions. Do we want to impose the condition on dogs that any of us, at any time, can do anything we like to them, and they may never defend themselves? If we assume a leadership role and require certain behavior from dogs, does that confer a responsibility to protect them from certain offenses/indignities (from which we are asking them not to protect themselves)?

Amy Dahl


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## feigle (Mar 10, 2011)

Lesson learned move on honestly, If the dog would have broken skin or continued to bite i would say ok its time to make the changes. Something was going on that your dog wanted stop so he basically yelled at your son. I was attacked by a dog as a child, not not barked or chased or snipped at, the dog grab my leg and threw me to the ground and continued to bite. If your dog wanted to he could have done serious damage. 

Its not ok by any means but dont bet yourself over it, it could have been worse for sure but it wasnt. Your son learned a lesson and you learned a lesson. Sorry you had this experience as I am sure its heartbreaking.


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## feigle (Mar 10, 2011)

Amy we think alike but you express it so much better


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks guys. I was just looking for some levelheadedness. In the heat of the moment I wanted to kill him for biting my son. 

Now that it's been overnight I'm calm.

Some of you have hit it right on the head and some not so close.

It was a social bite. Caleb was holding his head and getting in his face. The dog was saying get away from me. The problem is as Amy suggested did he learn it works?

My answer is going to be when I'm not around he stays in the kennel.

If he gives me an opportunity to correct him in the act of being aggressive towards my family I am going to make a lifelong impression on him.

We were invited to speak at the FCA this morning and there were 76 kids there. I took the dogs. I kept Scooter right next to me the whole time and watched him like a hawk. Probably 30-40 kids came and petted him. I kept them out of his face and zero problems. No aggression, no body language, nothing. After last night I almost didn't go, but we've been on the schedule for a month and I didn't want to leave them hanging.

So we chalk it up to dogs being dogs and move on.

I had a long talk with Caleb about dog behavior and what happens what they perceive as threatening and challenging.

We'll see what happens.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

My first thought is to start with the kids...sure the dogs are just dogs but kids should learn to keep their faces away from the dog... not to stare into a dog's eyes. Also, to not aggravate the animals...like they aggravate each other...be sure to correct your children for their aggressive behavior toward the dog...

You now have 2 dogs and neither might appreciate whatever the situation was that initiated the snap...

If the situation can't be suppervised, then the dog should be removed so that it doesn't end up being the victim for what he does naturally...


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

Dogs being dogs, usually play or constant harassment around their faces leads to a growl or snap. Heck, my dogs are as laid back and playful as they come but I'm keeping a friend's chocolate pup and she's caused both my dogs to growl at her just this morning. She hasn't been well socialized so she doesn't know the rules of behavior. As a result, she's always getting in their faces, putting paws up on their heads and backs, and so on. She just hasn't learned that in dog circles, "them's fightin' words." My older dog, Rusty, is great in that he'll growl a bit and just kind of swing his head to bump the pup off him like "Knock it off, kid." He does just enough to try to correct the behavior but is never aggressive about it as that's the end of it and he's right back to wagging his tail and playing. There's no pouncing on dogs then having a brawl on my hands but my point is that even the most docile dogs get to a point where they feel like they have to do something to end the antagonizing. I'm glad your son is okay but, from the small amount of information provided, it seems your son was the instigator. The retarded daughter of a friend of ours (not trying to be funny) has a bad habit that has yet to be corrected by her mother. When she gets around dogs, she wants to get right in their faces and basically yell at them, all in "play." The first time she was around my late Golden, she got right in his face, _grabbed him by his ears_, and lifted them straight up until he screamed out in pain before we even knew what was going on. Fortunately, he was a great tempered dog and didn't react defensively. I was livid. We immediately told her mother that she was not to do that again with our dog. The friend apologized. About two months later, a similar situation occurred with a mutual friend's dog. The mutual friend saw what was going on and asked the same mother have her daughter quit harassing his dog, in his face just like with mine but with a more dominant dog this time. The mother gave it the old "Oh, she'll be fine." Seconds later, the mother and daughter were on their way to the hospital for stitches in the daughter's face. To this day, the mother blames it entirely on the dog despite the fact that, had she simply been considerate enough to honor the owner's wishes, the incident would have never taken place. I have petted the same dog countless times and he's never so much as growled at me.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> Children should be taught not to challenge a dog in his face. The dog feels threatened and is only responding.
> 
> Sorry, but very glad your son was not seriously injured but the dog is not totally to blame.
> 
> My kids had a Cocker when they were small and had a friend over for play who held both her ears and barked at her in her face and she nipped his nose. No serious damage thank goodness but was a good lesson.



i DO NOT agree with this post.. not saying this is how you should handle it but this is how i would handle it and have in the past when i was a kid.. I feel if a dog bites a kid that is it kill the dog and move on... no matter how you feel about the dog it is just a dog and not your kid... i dont have kids but have one on the way and my dogs know not to even growl at a kid.. i let the neighbor hood kids play with him all the time and let them get in his face and do whatever they want to him the first time he snaps at one i will shoot him no questions asked i used to have a female that they played with and she snapped at one so i took both of them out to the country and shot her with him watching so he would kinda get the idea.. now not everybody on here will agree with me because some of these people think dogs are there kids well they are not. growing up we have killed many of dogs for growling at me and my brothers.. so that is how i feel about this post and cleo i am sorry if it pisses you off by me saying your beliefs are wrong but hey to each his own


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Philosophical questions. Do we want to impose the condition on dogs that any of us, at any time, can do anything we like to them, and they may never defend themselves? If we assume a leadership role and require certain behavior from dogs, does that confer a responsibility to protect them from certain offenses/indignities (from which we are asking them not to protect themselves)?


Excellent entire post Amy. People seem to think that dogs should be able to withstand any behavior and not bite. If they do they are termed aggressive. I have a problem with that.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I've been adding a puppy a year here the past several and haven't dealt w/any aggression.


Anne, you don't have children with your dogs. Children can move fast and suddenly and in movement not doglike. They can make dogs nervous, especially if they are at their level face to face. I hope this is not aggression but like someone said, a warning-get out of my face, and that Terry will address it as such with common sense.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

huntinlabs said:


> i DO NOT agree with this post.. not saying this is how you should handle it but this is how i would handle it and have in the past when i was a kid.. I feel if a dog bites a kid that is it kill the dog and move on... no matter how you feel about the dog it is just a dog and not your kid... i dont have kids but have one on the way and my dogs know not to even growl at a kid.. i let the neighbor hood kids play with him all the time and let them get in his face and do whatever they want to him the first time he snaps at one i will shoot him no questions asked i used to have a female that they played with and she snapped at one so i took both of them out to the country and shot her with him watching so he would kinda get the idea.. now not everybody on here will agree with me because some of these people think dogs are there kids well they are not. growing up we have killed many of dogs for growling at me and my brothers.. so that is how i feel about this post and cleo i am sorry if it pisses you off by me saying your beliefs are wrong but hey to each his own


This is quite possibly, one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum. 

Cleo and Amy have it right.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

labguy said:


> This is quite possibly, one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.
> 
> Cleo and Amy have it right.


And he has several Labs and a baby on the way, scary, huh? 

I agree Amy, et al.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

huntinlabs said:


> i DO NOT agree with this post.. not saying this is how you should handle it but this is how i would handle it and have in the past when i was a kid.. I feel if a dog bites a kid that is it kill the dog and move on... no matter how you feel about the dog it is just a dog and not your kid... i dont have kids but have one on the way and my dogs know not to even growl at a kid.. i let the neighbor hood kids play with him all the time and let them get in his face and do whatever they want to him the first time he snaps at one i will shoot him no questions asked i used to have a female that they played with and she snapped at one so i took both of them out to the country and shot her with him watching so he would kinda get the idea.. now not everybody on here will agree with me because some of these people think dogs are there kids well they are not. growing up we have killed many of dogs for growling at me and my brothers.. so that is how i feel about this post and cleo i am sorry if it pisses you off by me saying your beliefs are wrong but hey to each his own


And pray tell, what do you plan to do to your child when he/she does something wrong? I have a feeling that you are going to have to eat a lot of crow before long. 

Oh, by the way, both of our children are over 50 and have never bitten anyone, they do sometimes growl though not seriously enough to take them out and shoot them.

Also, I would not sell you a dog for any amount of money - you need an attitude adjustment.
Have I pissed you off? Oh, I do hope so.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

You are an idiot. You set your own dogs up, put them in a bad situation and if they do what most dogs would you kill them. You are a friggin idiot. Once again, an idiot.


huntinlabs said:


> i DO NOT agree with this post.. not saying this is how you should handle it but this is how i would handle it and have in the past when i was a kid.. I feel if a dog bites a kid that is it kill the dog and move on... no matter how you feel about the dog it is just a dog and not your kid... i dont have kids but have one on the way and my dogs know not to even growl at a kid.. i let the neighbor hood kids play with him all the time and let them get in his face and do whatever they want to him the first time he snaps at one i will shoot him no questions asked i used to have a female that they played with and she snapped at one so i took both of them out to the country and shot her with him watching so he would kinda get the idea.. now not everybody on here will agree with me because some of these people think dogs are there kids well they are not. growing up we have killed many of dogs for growling at me and my brothers.. so that is how i feel about this post and cleo i am sorry if it pisses you off by me saying your beliefs are wrong but hey to each his own


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Leddyman said:


> I wasn't home, went to the grocery store. I got back both children were in tears. Scooter (almost 3 Y.O. intact male) bit my son (9 Y.O.) in the face. Caleb was playing with him and Hannah, my daughter, said Caleb got up in scooter's face. Scooter snapped him. It did not break the skin, but it's gonna leave a good mark. There was no warning. (I'm sure there was body language, but they can't read it) We got a new puppy Jan. 1, so his world has changed some. I don't know. I'm really disgusted right now. This happened like 30 min. ago.
> 
> I freaked a little. If it weren't for the wife and kids I'd be in the back yard digging a hole right now. You better not freaking bite my son, I don't care how good a dog you are.
> 
> ...


Several things stand out in this post .....#1 I wasn't home..#2 he has warned me in the past...#3 I have seen the the stare , the body language...
Not here to bash you or heap burning coals on your head ...To begin with I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that pack leadership has broken down ....You are the pack leader #1 on the list ..The family SHOULD be next in line with the dog being on the bottom of the list...In other words he is subordinate to every one...Even the youngest in the family.. As you stated in a later post ,things went well at an event you attended with children around...As long as you are there to show leadership things will probably be ok...NO leader the dog takes charge .....Any breed of dog in the house with the family ,wife and kids, must understand the rules...It appears yours doesn't at this time ...Therefor precaution is necessary until this is taken care of...There are many ways to establish this leadership with the wife and kids..I recommend you seek the advice of a person locally that can work with you on specific actions to resolve this behavior...As some on stated " Dog bits are not accidental" , the dog bit just enough to put the child in line...a correction if I may use that term...I am very sorry for you and your family to have to go through this traumatic event... Steve S


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

I agree 100% with what Amy posted.

I'm not an expert, but I'd be careful about a harsh correction if he shows any aggression around the family again - not saying it can be allowed to go on, but I'm not sure that approach will actually resolve the problem you're trying to fix.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Philosophical questions. Do we want to impose the condition on dogs that any of us, at any time, can do anything we like to them, and they may never defend themselves? If we assume a leadership role and require certain behavior from dogs, does that confer a responsibility to protect them from certain offenses/indignities (from which we are asking them not to protect themselves)?


Your entire post Amy was very eloquently stated.

Dogs are not people,,,but it seems we want to impose the same standards on them as though they are. Dogs have their own edicate totally unrelated to ours. Pack dynamics took place. Your dog stated to your son to get out of his face. Your son did not. So your dog put him in his place. And he did it just as Amy said,,with a tempered bite. Your dog obviously ment no harm. HE just doesn't want young members of his group in his face. Hopefully your son will take heed and when your not around someone else will keep the kids in check. If they don't the dog will

This post sounds harsh,,,,but i'm just giving you the view point of the dog. Dogs can be harsh. You got a taste of doggy love.

Very few dogs enjoy something in their face. A large percentage will turn their head and avert their eyes when owners hug them. Its uncomfortable for most dogs, even if they have some type of wag in their tail

Dogs will always think like dogs.
He was just being a dog. 
Next time your dog may not be so tolerant.
Remeber you stated you saw this potential in him. He told you what could happen someday in certain contexts. Thats a pretty fair and balanced dog;-) From what I read this was the parents fault because you stated you new better. Terry this doesn't have to be a bad situation.

Amy says things so much better than me.

pete

Pete


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Cleo Watson said:


> And pray tell, what do you plan to do to your child when he/she does something wrong? I have a feeling that you are going to have to eat a lot of crow before long.
> 
> Oh, by the way, both of our children are over 50 and have never bitten anyone, they do sometimes growl though not seriously enough to take them out and shoot them.
> 
> ...


Good for you, Cleo. I realize this guy is a young man in the service and getting ready to be deployed again, from his previous posts he's asked for help on multiple subjects, including should he keep the youngest pup now that his wife is pregnant, and most recently, pro help to work one of his dogs while gone. I truly hope he finds someone to take over at least one of his dogs, he is in need of some mentoring. Terry has the right attitude about his dog, his kids and the incident, maybe this poster will learn something too.


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## Pinehill (Jul 14, 2010)

do not blame the dog. Under your supervision, have your son begin to handle the dog properly. On leash heeling, recalls, etc until they get a better relationship. Your first clue of a potenyial problem was the kids were "playing with the dof". A dog is not a toy. If the skin wasn't broken, it wasn't a full blown attack, but a warning. The dog showed restrain, and was only correcting your son as he would a puppy.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

huntinlabs said:


> i DO NOT agree with this post.. not saying this is how you should handle it but this is how i would handle it and have in the past when i was a kid.. I feel if a dog bites a kid that is it kill the dog and move on... no matter how you feel about the dog it is just a dog and not your kid... i dont have kids but have one on the way and my dogs know not to even growl at a kid.. i let the neighbor hood kids play with him all the time and let them get in his face and do whatever they want to him the first time he snaps at one i will shoot him no questions asked i used to have a female that they played with and she snapped at one so i took both of them out to the country and shot her with him watching so he would kinda get the idea.. now not everybody on here will agree with me because some of these people think dogs are there kids well they are not. growing up we have killed many of dogs for growling at me and my brothers.. so that is how i feel about this post and cleo i am sorry if it pisses you off by me saying your beliefs are wrong but hey to each his own


 
That is beyond pointless.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

This thread brought back vivid, painful memories for me...

I had been hunting in the morning, a good hunt with many retrieves. I returned home changed and went into my office. When I left, Bar was sleeping in the closet.. that sound sleep that dogs have after a good strenuous hunt.

Around 3 I got the call... Bar had bitten a friend's child that was over playing with my son and he had a gash on his cheek. My wife and the child's mother were talking in the living room while the kids were playing in the bedroom. The child that was bitten had jumped off the bed into the closet to hug Bar.

This dog had never shown any aggressive attitude with anyone. Fortunately, our friends were very understanding and did not demand anything from us, and through the very good work of the doctors, the boy has virtually no visible scar. However, the emotional scar on my wife was severe. She wanted me to put the dog down.... and I came close to doing it. But I talked to a bunch of dog people, including Marilyn Fender, and they urged me to analyze the situation and not blame the dog entirely. I did not euthanize Bar, and he ended up being a faithful companion for 12 years, never showing any aggression to anyone else.

Dogs and unsupervised children do not mix. Sure, some dogs will put up with anything, but a sleeping dog, tired from a morning hunt, that was "jumped" unexpectedly, cannot be expected to not react.

Lesson learned... do not allow unsupervised kids around your dogs... ever.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

lets just say that i did my point and pissed people off i am farm raised and believe that if any dog bites a kid it is the dogs fault no i do not set my dogs up i am there with them if they growl i jump on them to remind them to watch their self and they are not the boss I am... now if a dog ignores me and bites the kid any ways then yes it is time to shoot them.. so if i cam off wrong then i apoligize but to me a dog is a dog i will love them with all my heart but they are NOT a human they are a ANIMAL. but at the same time i feel that if the dog did it on acident as him and the kid were playing then yes ill say to the kid tuffen up or dont play with them ruff.. i only shoot a dog if it aggresivly bites a kid not an adult but a kid... so if the kid is pulling his ears and things and my dog shows me the warning sign it is just a good ol fashon come to jesus meating but if he goes ahead and bites the kid then yes get the gun out and do what i have to do...


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## Obabikon (Jul 1, 2009)

Your logic is as sound as your spelling.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

so if your dog bites a kid and screws his face up you look at the parents and say its not my dogs fault its the kids?


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'm not sure where whiteman is but what are you going to do when someone finds out you shot the dog and you end up in jail? If you did that **** anywhere in the northeast you would be facing serious animal cruelty charges.
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion and to do what you like with your dogs within the law but I think you are way outside it in most states.
> 
> ...


read my second post where i tried to clear it up a little


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Geez o Pete.

Where to start?

Come to Jesus meeting I think you mean.


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## Pinehill (Jul 14, 2010)

some people should just never have dogs. If you think they are that disposable, that you can just kill them and get another, then please do the dog world a favor and find nother hobby. something mechanical. buy a tool.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

huntinlabs said:


> read my second post where i tried to clear it up a little


doesn't really matter. as I said, your dog, your tradition, your perogative WITHIN THE LAW.

the law is going to put you behind bars if anything like that happens.

just thought I would point that out to you.

mind you I'm not putting you behind bars, but the law certainly will.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Pinehill said:


> some people should just never have dogs. If you think they are that disposable, that you can just kill them and get another, then please do the dog world a favor and find nother hobby. something mechanical. buy a tool.


no i do not think they are disposable i did not say i like to kill dogs i was just stating that i would rather loose a dog than screw a kid up for life...


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

huntinlabs said:


> so if your dog bites a kid and screws his face up you look at the parents and say its not my dogs fault its the kids?


 
I have an Irish Wolfhound that the neighbor kids hang over the fence and tease her. If they are stupid enough to do that and get bit, too damn bad! So if it is the kids fault 100% are you still gonna shoot the dog?


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## Pinehill (Jul 14, 2010)

you can't take back a bite. so your dog bites a kid. It's TOO LATE to take it back. Killing the dog does not give you a "re do". Please please NEVER get another dog. EVER.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

1st retriever said:


> I have an Irish Wolfhound that the neighbor kids hang over the fence and tease her. If they are stupid enough to do that and get bit, too damn bad! So if it is the kids fault 100% are you still gonna shoot the dog?


no then i see the kid at fault.. i had the same thing happening to my rot and i would talk to the parents and they would ignore me so i called the cops and had a written statement saying there would be nothing that they would do to me or the dog if she bit one of them so i took that to the parents and the teasing stopped...


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Pinehill said:


> you can't take back a bite. so your dog bites a kid. It's TOO LATE to take it back. Killing the dog does not give you a "re do". Please please NEVER get another dog. EVER.


no it does not take back a bite but at the same time it stops future bites...


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

so let me ask this to everyone that is fighting me if your dog takes off a kids face with one bite what do you do then? do you tell the kids family i am sorry it was your kids fault or do you have the dog put down?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Reading your posts Terry it's pretty clear that the dog is OK when he has what he feels is leadership and protection present, but may not be so when it is absent.

I doubt a good ass whoopin at any point is going to do anything but make the dog less secure which = more volatile. Especially if it's given by someone he already sees in a leadership and protection role. TO me that breaks down his trust and what you need is the exact opposite.

He obviously needs to trust and respect everyone who handle him, or he doesn't feel secure. He may not have the trust or respect for your kids or strangers that he needs, in order to be with them unsupervised.

People talk about putting the kids in a dominant position within the pack, but I'm not sure you can train kids the age of yours to do what they have to do to maintain that position.

Remember, it's nothing, if not dynamic. The kids can be superior one minute but subordinate the next. The dog may test his position at times with similar or other behavior. If your kids don't recognize that behavior and react appropriately, his mind will change and they will be at risk for similar incidents.

Caleb is now in a one down position, since I image he recoiled when Scooter corrected him (the desired response).

You now have an engrained habit you have to break if you ever want to allow the dog to be supervised by anyone except you. You know what that means in terms of repetition from other training scenarios. You have a long road on your hands here to modify this behavior and change your pack dynamic.

First it's a behavior he learned works with humans (he already knew it worked with his littermates), second, your pack is out of whack, third you're bucking his natural instinct...

I don't know what exactly you would do to make the dynamic more healthy for him. I can dream up some stuff but I would call someone or hire a pro for advice here.

I accomplished this with my JRT but... she needs supervision or she will bite out of fear each and every time she is challenged by a stranger. We let it develop when she was a puppy and now we have it to live with forever. We protect her every day from getting herself into a bad situation, and as long as we protecting her, she's fine. Just don't walk into the yard without one of us there and turn your back on her.

Good luck and sorry you have this situation to deal with.

Glad Caleb is OK!


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

huntinlabs said:


> so let me ask this to everyone that is fight me if your dog takes off a kids face with one bite what do you do then? do you tell the kids family i am sorry it was your kids fault or do you have the dog put down?


 
If it was the *kids* fault and they were teasing/tormenting the dog? Then as far as I am concerned not my problem. If the *dog* is at fault and actually takes their face off as you put it then yes.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

huntinlabs said:


> so let me ask this to everyone that is fighting me if your dog takes off a kids face with one bite what do you do then? do you tell the kids family i am sorry it was your kids fault or do you have the dog put down?


OK - that isn't what happened in this situation. We're not talking about an unprovoked mauling. You said you'd shoot them if they so much as growled at kids.

You said yourself about kids teasing your rot - you had the police come etc.

So, what if the kids had kept teasing and your rot took off a face?


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## Pinehill (Jul 14, 2010)

if you have a dog that is so poorly bred and poorly trained and so totally unsupervised that it "took a kids face off" then yes, the dog should be put down. But the idiot who owed the dog that was THAT poorly bred and trained and unmonitored should never have another dog. We are not talking about that kind of bite. If you can't see the difference then you are not worth responding to any longer. Please place your dogs with someone else. You do not deserve to have them.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

huntinlabs said:


> so let me ask this to everyone that is fighting me if your dog takes off a kids face with one bite what do you do then? do you tell the kids family i am sorry it was your kids fault or do you have the dog put down?


Whatever you do, you do within the law and shooting the dog doesn't fit that definition.

My answer would be that the kid isn't left with the dog in the first place.

My neighbors and all the kids have been warned to stay away from my dogs because they might get bitten.

That's not because any of my dogs are mean, but because kids do stupid things not knowing any better and get bitten.

And no, if a kid came into my yard and tormented my dog into biting him in the face I would absolutely not put it down and would be filing a tresspass complaint more than likely.

In any other circumstance where I know the kid is present, the dogs are under my supervision/control.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Where to start?


Just start I'll check in later tonight maby. Gotta get rollin.
Pete


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

ok so i will let everyone know why i feel the way i do.

when i was around 14 yo me and my cousin were at a friends houst playing in the back yard with them. the dog who happened to be a lab was never agressive to us and always played with us. then one day in one bite the dog took the right side off of his face when we dialed 911 i was holding his face and could do nothing for him. after the bite the dog acted like nothing happend so when we were in court the judge said that being we were in his yard we were at fault.. unless the dog had a previouse background of being aggressive so we hired private investigators to do some research and they got the owner to admit the dog has infact snapped at his kid for being in his face but it was nothing aggressive and was the kids fault well the judge then sided with us all i am saying is if you read the dogs language they will let you know if it is an aggressive bite or a fearful or protective bite. so if this dog owner could have read the language and infact it was a aggressive bite and had the dog put down my cousin would still have his whole face.. at 14 years old you cant explain what it is like to hold your family member face in the palm of your hands so that is why i feel that if my dog ever aggressivly bites a kid then yes put him down but if it is fearful then no i just need to watch him and sociallize him some more. so please dont think that i will just shoot a dog for the hell of it no i only do what i feel is needed when the dog aggressivly bites a kid... and yes it hurts to put the dog down but i cant get the picture of my cousin out of my head with half a face missing and blood everywhere so that is why i do what i feel needed 

sorry if i come off strong its just that i do not want a kid to go through what my cousin has to go through everyday for the rest of his life..


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Reading your posts Terry it's pretty clear that the dog is OK when he has what he feels is leadership and protection present, but may not be so when it is absent.
> 
> I doubt a good ass whoopin at any point is going to do anything but make the dog less secure which = more volatile. Especially if it's given by someone he already sees in a leadership and protection role. TO me that breaks down his trust and what you need is the exact opposite.
> 
> ...


Great post.

The hand of god can go either way on you.

You should train the dog early to never go near the kids. This is how you put them higher in the pack and the dog will respect them.

No pack member is ever allowed near the wolf pups. They all respect that. 

As far as getting backed into a corner or surprised, it all comes down to the dogs nerve. Ever heard a bite trainer say, this dog is no good he has week nerves. This is exactly what they are talking about.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

T-Pines said:


> Your two posts in this thread lead me to believe that you have encountered quite a few aggressive dogs in your lifetime that have acted in ways that, in your opinion, necessitate being put down. More often than statistically likely, no matter how many hundreds of dogs you've owned during your life.
> 
> Have you ever considered that these multiple "bad" dogs that have been in your life were not predestined to be so "bad"? Maybe their bad behavior was the result of mistakes made by the people responsible for these dogs. Maybe these humans keep repeating these mistakes with dog after dog, and certain dogs, doing what normal dogs do, cross that "line" that you deem punishable by death. Maybe the solution is not the continued shooting of your dogs, but taking a serious look at how you train, care for, discipline, supervise and nurture your dogs.
> 
> ...


yes i have experienced alot of aggressive dogs growing up and i dont know why people are saying that i feel the need to shoot my dog i only feel that if the dog shows aggression towards kids then yes it should be put down but not if it is the first time showing aggression if it happens more than once to more than one kid then yes i would rather loose a dog than a kid


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

NCHank said:


> OK - that isn't what happened in this situation. We're not talking about an unprovoked mauling. You said you'd shoot them if they so much as growled at kids.
> 
> You said yourself about kids teasing your rot - you had the police come etc.
> 
> So, what if the kids had kept teasing and your rot took off a face?


no i said growling = come to jesus meeting if it continues and turns into biting the it is time to put them down


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

huntinlabs said:


> yes i have experienced alot of aggressive dogs growing up and i dont know why people are saying that i feel the need to shoot my dog i only feel that if the dog shows aggression towards kids then yes it should be put down but not if it is the first time showing aggression if it happens more than once to more than one kid then yes i would rather loose a dog than a kid


Because you keep saying "shows aggression" not bites. In my opinion anyway.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

huntinlabs said:


> ok so i will let everyone know why i feel the way i do.
> 
> when i was around 14 yo me and my cousin were at a friends houst playing in the back yard with them. the dog who happened to be a lab was never agressive to us and always played with us. then one day in one bite the dog took the right side off of his face when we dialed 911 i was holding his face and could do nothing for him. after the bite the dog acted like nothing happend so when we were in court the judge said that being we were in his yard we were at fault.. unless the dog had a previouse background of being aggressive so we hired private investigators to do some research and they got the owner to admit the dog has infact snapped at his kid for being in his face but it was nothing aggressive and was the kids fault well the judge then sided with us all i am saying is if you read the dogs language they will let you know if it is an aggressive bite or a fearful or protective bite. so if this dog owner could have read the language and infact it was a aggressive bite and had the dog put down my cousin would still have his whole face.. at 14 years old you cant explain what it is like to hold your family member face in the palm of your hands so that is why i feel that if my dog ever aggressivly bites a kid then yes put him down but if it is fearful then no i just need to watch him and sociallize him some more. so please dont think that i will just shoot a dog for the hell of it no i only do what i feel is needed when the dog aggressivly bites a kid... and yes it hurts to put the dog down but i cant get the picture of my cousin out of my head with half a face missing and blood everywhere so that is why i do what i feel needed
> 
> sorry if i come off strong its just that i do not want a kid to go through what my cousin has to go through everyday for the rest of his life..


sorry you had to go through that  I would still be in therapy


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

huntinlabs said:


> no i said growling = come to jesus meeting if it continues and turns into biting the it is time to put them down


why don't we just let this underlying thread die..

the other one is very useful with people like Pete and Amy responding.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

1st retriever said:


> Because you keep saying "shows aggression" not bites. In my opinion anyway.


you are correct i meant to say if it shows aggression and that turns into biting the put the dog down if it never turns into biting then work with the dog and keep it under close supervision


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> why don't we just let this underlying thread die..
> 
> the other one is very useful with people like Pete and Amy responding.


because people have the wrong idea about me which is my fault due to not reading what i wrote and how i wrote it and explaining it as i am trying to do


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

huntinlabs said:


> because people have the wrong idea about me which is my fault due to not reading what i wrote and how i wrote it and explaining it as i am trying to do


Proof read!  lol


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

1st retriever said:


> Proof read! lol


yes i need to remember to do this if i have done this with my first post i dont think people would think that i am here to kill dogs at any sign of aggression because i am not


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

As a kid growing up, I was bit a couple of times by the family dog. I was the "baby girl" in the family where she had previously held that role. I was taught by some wise parents to 1) never stick my hands in a dogs bowl when they were eating 2) don't bother the dog when they are in their bed/closet, and 3) don't tease the darn dog. 

Many parents expect dogs, who are just animals as huntinlabs states, to act perfect when kids are tormenting them. How about if we educate our dogs and our children? Wow, what a novel idea!


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

so to the people that think this i am not i am sorry i came off like i was it was my ignorence that i didnt think about how my post could have been take so please forgive me as i am new to the game and do not want a bad name. but i feel any aggressive dog should be put down idk how many of you feel that way but again i am sorry if i came off wrong so please forgive me because i am not the monster you think i am i am actually a dog lover but i feel that humans are more important than animals


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

huntinlabs said:


> so to the people that think this i am not i am sorry i came off like i was it was my ignorence that i didnt think about how my post could have been take so please forgive me as i am new to the game and do not want a bad name. but i feel any aggressive dog should be put down idk how many of you feel that way but again i am sorry if i came off wrong so please forgive me because i am not the monster you think i am i am actually a dog lover but i feel that humans are more important than animals


Believe it or not after some explanation on your part I understand and basically side with you. IF the dog is truly aggressive, not just in a bad situation and not behaving properly, then the dog is gone. I don't know if I could pull the trigger or not, but it wouldn't be in my house. Whether it's in a rescue or at a no kid house or in the dirt.

I just think that your emotions came through without some better wording in your post.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Socks said:


> Believe it or not after some explanation on your part I understand and basically side with you. IF the dog is truly aggressive, not just in a bad situation and not behaving properly, then the dog is gone. I don't know if I could pull the trigger or not, but it wouldn't be in my house. Whether it's in a rescue or at a no kid house or in the dirt.
> 
> I just think that your emotions came through without some better wording in your post.


thank you for siding with me and yes they did because of the thing that happened with my cousin and i should have read it before i hit submit but i cant change that now. and now people think i am here to just kill dogs and that is not true only when needed would i ever do something like that...


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

huntinlabs said:


> thank you for siding with me and yes they did because of the thing that happened with my cousin and i should have read it before i hit submit but i cant change that now. and now people think i am here to just kill dogs and that is not true only when needed would i ever do something like that...


Use the edit post button if you want the change what you said.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Susan, one of the many things I do in socializing our pups before they leave is to sit on the floor with them while they are eating and actually take food out of their mouths so they think this is natural. I start this as soon as they begin eating solid food and continue from time to time up to 8 weeksd of age. Have not had any agressive behavior in all the litters we have had over the last 30 years. I would never want one of our pups to bite any one let alone a child. I feel so sorry for kids and adults who are afraid of dogs. I have noticed over the years that those cute little 'ankle biters' are more prone to bite than big dogs.

Again, common sense plays a big roll in being responsible for your animals and your children.

And Huntinglabs, they may be dogs but they are Gods living creatures and deserve our respect and dignity in life and death.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Jason Glavich said:


> Use the edit post button if you want the change what you said.


i know and i should have...


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> Susan, one of the many things I do in socializing our pups before they leave is to sit on the floor with them while they are eating and actually take food out of their mouths so they think this is natural. I start this as soon as they begin eating solid food and continue from time to time up to 8 weeksd of age. Have not had any agressive behavior in all the litters we have had over the last 30 years. I would never want one of our pups to bite any one let alone a child. I feel so sorry for kids and adults who are afraid of dogs. I have noticed over the years that those cute little 'ankle biters' are more prone to bite than big dogs.
> 
> Again, common sense plays a big roll in being responsible for your animals and your children.
> 
> And Huntinglabs, they may be dogs but they are Gods living creatures and deserve our respect and dignity in life and death.


you are right and the should be but what i have said is just my opinion..


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Cleo Watson said:


> I have noticed over the years that those cute little 'ankle biters' are more prone to bite than big dogs.


Have you figured out why that is?

There a a number of factors...

a 10 lb dog is likely to be more fearful than a larger one.

people coddle them and carry them around

people are MUCH MORE likely to allow what is really dominant behavior to go on because they can easily control a small dog physically (until it bites)

oh and they have no idea what dominant behavior actually looks like

a lot of them are cute and get owners that have no idea how to impart discipline on the dog without beating the hell out of it (which just makes them more fearful)

in short, don't blame the dog

it's we who let them get out of balance


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Cleo Watson said:


> Susan, one of the many things I do in socializing our pups before they leave is to sit on the floor with them while they are eating and actually take food out of their mouths so they think this is natural. I start this as soon as they begin eating solid food and continue from time to time up to 8 weeksd of age. Have not had any agressive behavior in all the litters we have had over the last 30 years. I would never want one of our pups to bite any one let alone a child. I feel so sorry for kids and adults who are afraid of dogs. I have noticed over the years that those cute little 'ankle biters' are more prone to bite than big dogs.
> 
> Again, common sense plays a big roll in being responsible for your animals and your children.
> 
> And Huntinglabs, they may be dogs but they are Gods living creatures and deserve our respect and dignity in life and death.


Wow this is an interersting tidbit of info. I've never thought of taking food out of pups mouths at that age for that purpose, but boy it makes sense. Cleo, I really wish you would write a book. I know that I could learn SO MUCH from someone with your knowledge and experience.


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

DarrinGreene said:


> Have you figured out why that is?
> 
> There a a number of factors...
> 
> ...


So true! I can't tell you how many times I have been around friends with small dogs who misbehave and I always say, boy if one of my labs...


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

pleas read the rest of the post that i made before you comment on one ok? i did not proof read that and explaind myself later...


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

Steve Hester said:


> It's a shame you even own ANY dog.:-x


and it is ashame you judge someone before you met them:-x


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

huntinlabs said:


> no it does not take back a bite but at the same time it stops future bites...


Another way to stop future bites is to make sure your's and other kids are not left alone with your dog, and that kids are taught how to play with dogs correctly. 

I think we need to acknowledge that there are different degrees of danger here. I have known dogs like my first big Golden who would never bite a kid no matter what torture the kid was doing to the dog, at the other end of the spectrum are dogs that are so fearful, territorial or agressive, that they would be considered dangerous and if I wasn't prepared to watch this dog like a hawk 24/7, I probably would put him down. The balance of dogs fall between those two extremes, in a place where we need to evaluate the dog and the situation, then use good judgement in dealing with the dog and problem. Huntinlabs want's to make it black and white and take all judgement out of the equation, pretty lazy approach if you ask me.

John


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> Another way to stop future bites is to make sure your's and other kids are not left alone with your dog, and that kids are taught how to play with dogs correctly.
> 
> I think we need to acknowledge that there are different degrees of danger here. I have known dogs like my first big Golden who would never bite a kid no matter what torture the kid was doing to the dog, at the other end of the spectrum are dogs that are so fearful, territorial or agressive, that they would be considered dangerous and if I wasn't prepared to watch this dog like a hawk 24/7, I probably would put him down. The balance of dogs fall between those two extremes, in a place where we need to evaluate the dog and the situation, then use good judgement in dealing with the dog and problem. Huntinlabs want's to make it black and white and take all judgement out of the equation, pretty lazy approach if you ask me.
> 
> John


no i do not re read my post in one of them i said that the dog would have to be agressive to where i would have to watch him or something along those lines!!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

huntinlabs said:


> so to the people that think this i am not i am sorry i came off like i was it was my ignorence that i didnt think about how my post could have been take so please forgive me as i am new to the game and do not want a bad name. but i feel any aggressive dog should be put down idk how many of you feel that way but again i am sorry if i came off wrong so please forgive me because i am not the monster you think i am i am actually a dog lover but i feel that humans are more important than animals


I quoted and responded before I read to the end, sounds like you are slightly more nuanced that you first posted. Also, I hate to be the spelling police, I know I make my share of spelling errors, but please capitalize the first letter in a sentence and your I's when refering to your self as in, "I am not the monster you think I am".

John


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> I quoted and responded before I read to the end, sounds like you are slightly more nuanced that you first posted. Also, I hate to be the spelling police, I know I make my share of spelling errors, but please capitalize the first letter in a sentence and your I's when refering to your self as in, "I am not the monster you think I am".
> 
> John


OK I will try to make sure I do that more often lol. That seems to be what everyone is doing they are looking at that first post making rude comments the deleting there comment because they read the rest. I do apoligize that I did not proof read before I posted but hey **** happens sometimes


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Hughest, Cleo doesn't have time to write a book on training pups-- she has a FULL TIME job trying to train her husband, ME. It has been a work in progress and she has been at it for 57 years, and she hasn't given up yet.

Years ago, we sold a pup to a fellow who said he had raised Beagles. He called us a year later and complained that his dog wouldn't retrieve. Seems he had put the pup in the pen with the Beagles AND LEFT IT THERE FOR MOST OF THE YEAR. We started to write a book then about how to raise a Lab pup, but I found a copy of Retriever Puppy Training, The Right Start For Hunting by Loveland and Rutherford. This seemed to fill the bill, so we have bought them by the case and sent one home with each new puppy owner.

Not only has this been successful, but it has alowed Cleo to continue her "Husband In Training" program. I hope she will realize how well she has suceeded, my left ear is getting sore. Thanks for the thought though, Bill


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Cleo Watson said:


> Susan, one of the many things I do in socializing our pups before they leave is to sit on the floor with them while they are eating and actually take food out of their mouths so they think this is natural. I start this as soon as they begin eating solid food and continue from time to time up to 8 weeksd of age. Have not had any agressive behavior in all the litters we have had over the last 30 years. I would never want one of our pups to bite any one let alone a child. I feel so sorry for kids and adults who are afraid of dogs. I have noticed over the years that those cute little 'ankle biters' are more prone to bite than big dogs.
> 
> Again, common sense plays a big roll in being responsible for your animals and your children.


I actually do this too Cleo. I can take anything I want out of my dog's mouths...... but I do believe in teaching children not to do it. Why put them in harm's way? Or, what if they come into contact with a dog that hasn't been socialized that way? 

Living in Chicago, when walking the dogs, I also frquently get met with the question from kids: "Do those dogs bite?" I always say, "All dogs can bite if in a bad situation, but if you would like to pet THESE dogs, I can show you how to pet them. Do you want me to show you?" I then give my kid lesson on how to pet a dog. Course, if it's someone I think that wants to just rob me, I say, "Of course, they bite, just as soon as I tell them too!"


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Ok ,
1).*He never did it before, but he has warned me in the past and I didn't take it seriously enough. I have seen the stare and the body language with certain people that tells me he doesn't like them. I should have known he would try this dominance crap with Caleb. *
*Really?Did anyone see his quote?????*
*How much more plainer could this dog's behavior be??????*
Pecking order yes let's all think about it.
Children of any ages are almost always seen as less in a dominant male/females eyes.Children are usually smaller in size and less than authatative voices.
Does this owner really have complete control of his dog really???
Dogs usually follow a doggie system of communicating dicipline.
1). I'll stare at you(postureing).To get you to back off, back away or get out of my sh$t.
2.)I'll growl at you and may also stare at you as well.
3.) "If" that doesn't work , then I'm going to bite you.
Sometimes the steps are there "BUT" people either chose to ignore it or just aren't paying attention to it.
*This dog has given this owner any number of warning signs.*
Now this dog has biten a child. A small child that for the most part is defenseless. What happened to the dog as an immediate result???? *NOTHING!!! So the dog stores this info. Just like learning to sit, heel, fetch.....*
So what will this intact ,dominant dog do next time this boy child even gets near anything that belongs to this dog??
Not trying to make you feel anything except to think .We "ALL" love our dogs and want to think the best of them.
But the dog has given you his signs. Please don't ignore them anymore.
What is the answer here??
Not something that I feel should be answered on a public forum. get some professional help.
I have and still do work with aggressive dogs as well as train young dogs. I have absolutely no patience with dogs that bite small children. The dog can always turn and walk away.I am currently raising 2 kids (now 14,9) and my dogs would never ever ever dare bite anyone.
Please take care of your family first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sue
(Sorry about the misspelled words.)


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Huntinlabs, I'm glad you continued to post, and to clarify your thoughts - I think most folks agree with you, but not with your first post.


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

NCHank said:


> Huntinlabs, I'm glad you continued to post, and to clarify your thoughts - I think most folks agree with you, but not with your first post.


well i hope they do because i didnt meen for my first post to come out the way it did...


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Very good post Sue Kiefer. 




Sue Kiefer said:


> Ok ,
> 1).*He never did it before, but he has warned me in the past and I didn't take it seriously enough. I have seen the stare and the body language with certain people that tells me he doesn't like them. I should have known he would try this dominance crap with Caleb. *
> *Really?Did anyone see his quote?????*
> *How much more plainer could this dog's behavior be??????*
> ...


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Anne, you don't have children with your dogs. Children can move fast and suddenly and in movement not doglike. They can make dogs nervous, especially if they are at their level face to face. I hope this is not aggression but like someone said, a warning-get out of my face, and that Terry will address it as such with common sense.


Absolutely correct, I don't have children of my own, but I have had my share who visit here when I have litters (and I usually let several if not all of my dogs out to see how the kids interact) plus I routinely train at parks where kids are naturally curious about what we are doing. I've handed my leashed dog off to many young kids over the years. My point is that mine don't get out of sorts just because I've added a puppy to the house. They know how they are to act, and of course, I'm always right there if a kid were to try something stupid, but I'm confident that mine would turn and come to me for guidance, not act out on their own. 

While growing up w/ our St Bernard, we weren't supervised all the time at all. In fact much of the time we were not since we had a family business that both parents worked in full time. It was the nasty little dachshund (oldest dog) we all feared, but again, we were TAUGHT to leave her alone!  In retrospect, I have to give her credit for being smart enough to go lay on her bed if we were all playing as children will play. Why did Terry's dog not choose to leave the room?

I hope for the best for Terry and his kids but he has admitted to seeing some warnings already. That's the worrisome part as Sue K has pointed out.


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## mnduckhunter (May 4, 2010)

I have seen supervised kids get nipped. But that's usually the kids fault. (my buddies kids)

My wife and I have a doxie. We just got back walking the dogs (also have a llasha aspa (sp). At the time we were renting a duplex. The lady downstairs had a kid (9-10 years old tops). Got back to the house, the kid from downstairs, comes running up to us. The kid was yelling, waving his arms. The doxie didn't like that too much. Nipped at one of his fingers. After I told the kid to stop. After that, we avoided him. I think it was ours, the kids and the dog's fault for that one. 

The doxie likes kids. You just have to be careful when she has her ball.


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## Chelsey's Triple H (Dec 22, 2009)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Ok ,
> 1).*He never did it before, but he has warned me in the past and I didn't take it seriously enough. I have seen the stare and the body language with certain people that tells me he doesn't like them. I should have known he would try this dominance crap with Caleb. *
> *Really?Did anyone see his quote?????*
> *How much more plainer could this dog's behavior be??????*
> ...


This!^ 

I agree you have to analyze the situation, but to those saying its the child's fault and that they need to act appropriately around the dog, you are totally discounting the fact that this dog's teeth touched human flesh. It took BOTH the child not heading the dogs warnings AND the dog to act on impulse. If anything, both the child and the dog need a new program. 

The owner has stated the dog has shown some signs of aggression towards other people, and dominant traits in the past. The body language and warning signs were never dealt with appropriately and it lead to a bite. Owners fault? Dogs fault? Childs fault? I say all three played a role. 

OP: I have a mutt I adopted (as a known biter) and she has been taught avoidance techniques but it is something we work on everyday. You have to realize what you have (whether it be a fear based aggression, dominance etc) and learn to manage it appropriately. If it means no child interactions when your not around, then so be it. It is your responsibility as a dog owner and father to keep you family and their dog safe.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Bill Watson said:


> We started to write a book then about how to raise a Lab pup, but I found a copy of Retriever Puppy Training, The Right Start For Hunting by Loveland and Rutherford.


Bill-

When you pass the book on to the new owner, do you comment on the inappropriateness of Chapter 8? I received a review copy of the 2nd edition. One thing and another and I just never go around to reviewing it. Then I picked it up and started reading it a month ago. 
All was fine until Chapter 8 and the discussion of slingshots and marbles.

I'm really discouraged that the book wasn't updated when it was released as a "2nd 
edition."

Eric


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

huntinlabs said:


> OK I will try to make sure I do that more often lol. That seems to be what everyone is doing they are looking at that first post making rude comments the deleting there comment because they read the rest. I do apoligize that I did not proof read before I posted but hey **** happens sometimes


Your failure to write properly with capitals and punctuation is the result of intellectual laziness. A mistake here and there can be overlooked. However, I know the Air Force doesn't allow that kind of behavior as a pattern. I do hope you don't work with any mission critical components or systems.

Eric


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:


> Your failure to write properly with capitals and punctuation is the result of intellectual laziness. A mistake here and there can be overlooked. However, I know the Air Force doesn't allow that kind of behavior as a pattern. I do hope you don't work with any mission critical components or systems.
> 
> Eric


I also think it's a side effect of our youth growing up texting. My wife drives our nephew nuts as she takes forever replying to his text with perfect grammer. She'll spend ten minutes composing a seven word, one sentence reply, then, zip- there's CJ's rely in three seconds. Then he has to wait another ten minutes for Cheryl to compose her reply. I crack up, because I'd rather just dial the number and talk to him, much faster. A generational thing I guess.

John


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## MoJo (Mar 24, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> I also think it's a side effect of our youth growing up texting. My wife drives our nephew nuts as she takes forever replying to his text with perfect *grammer*. She'll spend ten minutes composing a seven word, one sentence reply, then, zip- there's CJ's rely in three seconds. Then he has to wait another ten minutes for Cheryl to compose her reply. I crack up, because I'd rather just dial the number and talk to him, much faster. A generational thing I guess.
> 
> John


Just so you know, the word correctly spelled is grammar.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

MoJo said:


> Just so you know, the word correctly spelled is grammar.


Yikes, I should have had my wife write up my post. Guess I'm the kettle calling the pot black, or is it the other way around. I did know how to spell grammar, but got a little lazy and careless.

John


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> Yikes, I should have had my wife write up my post. Guess I'm the kettle calling the pot black, or is it the other way around. I did know how to spell grammar, but got a little lazy and careless.
> 
> John


As Daddy said "Glass Houses"


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Eric Johnson said:


> Bill-
> 
> When you pass the book on to the new owner, do you comment on the inappropriateness of Chapter 8? I received a review copy of the 2nd edition. One thing and another and I just never go around to reviewing it. Then I picked it up and started reading it a month ago.
> All was fine until Chapter 8 and the discussion of slingshots and marbles.
> ...


Eric, Having been hit by someone else "marbling" my dog, I have dismissed this proceedure from my training program.

Eric, every time I see you post I think of you running a Golden years ago. After a near perfect run, you did not put your dog on lead after you finished the test. You then stopped to talk to a young lady and as the test proceeded your dog BROKE, PICKED UP THE BIRD and ---------was disqualified. I'm sorry that is my constant memory of you. 

One of the others was when running Sweetie in a NAHRA test with Tom Rentz judging. After she picked up the water blind from of the dam, she started to come back by land. I blew the whistle, stopped her, handled her back into the water and you commented to me that that put me back under judgement. I was aware of this, but I wanted her to run the test the way I wanted her too. Yes, Tom reopened his book, as I expected him to do. If Sweetie had come on in by land I would have expected she would have been failed. Tom would have failed her too, I expected no less. Long memory, Bill


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Bill Watson said:


> Eric, every time I see you post I think of you running a Golden years ago. After a near perfect run, you did not put your dog on lead after you finished the test. You then stopped to talk to a young lady and as the test proceeded your dog BROKE, PICKED UP THE BIRD and ---------was disqualified. I'm sorry that is my constant memory of you.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Bill


I remember it well and tell it on myself from time to time. That was the first time we ran Finished and I was ecstatic...for a moment. You left out a couple of bits.

First, as we were leaving the line, Judge Omar Driscoll announced to the crowd that this dog ran the test exactly as the judges had designed it to be run. 

Second, Heather didn't just break. Heather dashed 20 yards, leapt a large brush pile, and through a barbed wire fence to get the bird.

Phil Ford often told the same story.

I wonder if Tom R is still alive. We had a Toller field day at his place one year and he judged. He couldn't keep the native flock on his pond away from the dogs. By the end of the test, we had to move because the ducks wouldn't.

Eric


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

An interesting thread sparked by an incident I am sorry leddyman and his family had to endure. Aggression in dogs is a complex issue and can result from one or a combination of many factors, bad breeding, temperament, medical issues (e.g. low thyroid), poor training and/or socialization, traumatic experiences, especially during fear periods.

Whatever the cause, it helps to be able to recognize canine body language, which can be subtle or just unnoticed by us verbal humans. Toward that end I recommend this book by Brenda Aloff, "Canine Body Language: a photographic guide". The book is mostly pictures with some text explaining what the dogs are displaying in the photos. I found it a very helpful book to learn from.

Her website is BrendaAloff.com 

Other books I have found helpful in learning about and dealing with canine aggression are:
How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong, Pam Dennison
Click to Calm, Emma Parsons
Ruff Love, Susan Garrett
Feisty Fido, Patricia B. McConnell & Karen B. London
Fight, Jean Donaldson
Scardy Dog, Ali Brown

Brenda has also written Aggression in dogs: practical managment, prevention and behavior modification but I have not read it yet.

If you are interested.Dogwise.com has them all and more plus some DVDs if you are a visual learner.

I have paired reading with working with professional trainers and that has worked best for me. I'm not advocating reading your way out of this, just offering resources if you want to learn more by reading.

Best of luck on your journey.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I'm a little surprised at some of the responses. I would never keep a dog that would bite my kids ... EVER. Does that mean put the dog down? No, but it means they won't live at my house. You have to have your priorities straight. What if the dog had seriously hurt the kid? Keeping a dog that has done that is foolishness. Sorry.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I guess I'm surprised by almost everything in this thread, from all sides. 

The kids were alone with a young dog, the owner knows the dog should have more supervision than none, a kid who should probably know better but kids are kids got in the dog's face, and a nip that didn't break the skin ensued. 

I'm fairly sure I would have been upset to the point of mortification and such and would have similar feelings as the OP, and that I'd be re-examining myself and my dog and my kids, but... anyway. 

I guess I don't know what I'm really saying, except to say that when the incident is summarized without emotion injected (which I know is unrealistic, but it's an intellectual exercise of sorts) some of the responses seem a bit out of balance.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Ok ,
> 1).*He never did it before, but he has warned me in the past and I didn't take it seriously enough. I have seen the stare and the body language with certain people that tells me he doesn't like them. I should have known he would try this dominance crap with Caleb. *
> *Really?Did anyone see his quote?????*
> *How much more plainer could this dog's behavior be??????*
> ...




As usual honesty on a dog forum will bite you in the ass every time. Kind of like a bad dog.

At the time I was upset and looking for a little support from my dog friends. I forgot you all are perfect. Dang why do I keep forgetting that? If you are looking for sympathy it's in the dictionary between sh#t and syphilis. 

Yes. He has been stiff with some people. Yes I thought holy cow he's going to bite them if they don't quit. He never did.

I thought as one might, that it was just "some people" You know some people dogs just don't like. I realize now that was a mistake. I also realize that you aren't allowed to make any mistakes on the RTF. I'm still trying to figure out how you all got so freakin' smart without making mistakes. Beats me.

This is not an aggressive dog as in wants to bite people. He doesn't bark or growl. I have had the weekend to think about it and I am sure what happened. He saw an opportunity to advance his position in the pack.

Please don't think nothing happened as a result. He didn't get away with it. My 13 Y.O. daughter stepped in. All she had was a flyswatter, but I got home right as that was going down. His body language indicated to me that I was still in the moment. I believe he was still associating what was happening with the bite. I'm not going into details but the response was thorough and severe.

Thorough questioning of my kids reveals. No growling. Just one quick snap. Caleb was inappropriately in the dog's face at the time.

I know that I was lucky. The bite was not severe. No broken skin. 

To those that wouldn't have the dog, fine. I don't believe it is necessary to get rid of him. My whole family is on the same page, they would be very upset if I got rid of him. He is going in his crate when I leave the house. simple as that.

Like anyone else I wanted to believe the absolute best of my dog. It gave me a blind spot. The blinders are now off. He is still a fine dog. Now he is a fine dog that has snapped at my son.

We are going to start a program of having my son work the dog on leash with me there, having the dog obey commands from him at random intervals in the house, Go out doors last, let caleb run the dog in training, etc.

If I don't see a change in Scooter, he may very well be gone. We'll see.

Yes it is my fault. Yes I missed a couple of warning signs because I love my dog. I'm sure none of you would have ever done that. I'm thinking of selling the dogs and going into parakeets.

Let this be a lesson to you newbies. Anything happens, keep it to yourself.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Terry in my eyes you did the right thing!!!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> John, do you know how to spell DILLIGAF?


I am quite familiar with that term.

*RK*


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Leddyman said:


> As usual honesty on a dog forum will bite you in the ass every time. Kind of like a bad dog.
> 
> At the time I was upset and looking for a little support from my dog friends. I forgot you all are perfect. Dang why do I keep forgetting that? If you are looking for sympathy it's in the dictionary between sh#t and syphilis.
> 
> ...


Terry, those three lines are priceless! As a less than "newbie" I somehow can never remember those facts in time to save myself from the savage horde! I am sure you will work it out with Scooter. Once you step back and cool off, the brain re-engages Good luck.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Ok ,
> 1).*He never did it before, but he has warned me in the past and I didn't take it seriously enough. I have seen the stare and the body language with certain people that tells me he doesn't like them. I should have known he would try this dominance crap with Caleb. *
> *Really?Did anyone see his quote?????*
> *How much more plainer could this dog's behavior be??????*
> ...


I agree with you completely Sue. The owner states he had seen previous aggressive signals from the dog. This dog needs to be placed in a home with no young children. As a surgical nurse I have seen what can happen when a dog bites a child in the face. A scar will last a life time, often with inferior self image, and fear of dogs. Why chance it, he doesn't need to be put down, just placed in a more suitable home. Children should never be placed in a situation where they are endangered by a family pet. I have raised dogs for 37 years and no dog showing any kind of aggression would remain in my home.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I've been reading along for awhile. I'm sorry this happened, it would have emotional results if it happened at my house too.

If I may make a suggestion, look elsewhere on RTF (right now it's still on the first page) for this thread to help put things in perspective.

Sounds to me like your dog was put in a "situation" and responded with a mild warning. If he had wanted to, he could have seriously injured your son, but he didn't. Your daughter did the best she could (nice work) and your follow-up plan to educate your son further, cement his position in the pecking order with training, and keep the dog kenneled when you're gone is quite reasonable.

It's easy to say never leave children alone with a dog, but it IS the norm, or else why would people get a family dog? Most families don't even have crates or kennels. Now that there has been a small incident, additional care is required for awhile. You are doing the right thing IMHO.


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## Sweetmi1 (Nov 24, 2007)

Bottom line is you can never trust the dog 100% again, he got away with aggressive behaviour and may default to that behaviour in a future situation (whether with Caleb or some other child/less assertive person). Coulda/shoulda/woulda doesn't change a thing because it happened and the dog got away with it (whipping his ass 1/2 hour later makes you feel good but that is all). Put him in the kennel, supervise Caleb's handling of him, develop him into a competitive dog if you wish but NEVER trust him completely.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

At a puking contest what scooter did would be judged as a birp.

Your making a big deal out of absolutely almost nothing. Your dog should be complemented for his restraint in that situation.
Keep the dog, you have a good one.

If a trainer gets a little bite during FF should you put the dog down or get rid of it.? After all ,,,the trainer was only pinching his ear and trying to make him reach for a bumper.

This turned out perfect for you. You have seen what your dog is capapble of doing when put in a compromising position.( which isn't much).

Other than next time he probably will be slightly less tolerant and his bite slightly more potent. Which now that you know is possible should never happen again.

Now do you feel better Terry,,,, A life lesson and you and your son paid nothing for it. I'm sure he's been banged around way more than what scooter did to him.

Move on,,,their is nothing dramatic about this.

MHPoV

Pete


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Terry-

There are some of us who support you. 



Leddyman said:


> Caleb was inappropriately in the dog's face at the time.


Thanks for understanding that it's sometimes the kids that create the situation. We've all known dogs that get thrown out because of a mis-interreted incident. The shelters are full of them. Dogs and children must be trained to live together.



> I don't believe it is necessary to get rid of him. My whole family is on the same page, they would be very upset if I got rid of him.


As a family, you're working together to change the situation for the better so all can live together peacefully.



> He is going in his crate when I leave the house. simple as that.


Great! Parental supervision rules!




> Yes it is my fault.


You took ownership of the situation, and I personally respect that.



> I'm thinking of selling the dogs and going into parakeets.


They'd only peck you! 

Have a good day, Terry. I'll be looking forward to hearing about your progress.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Leddyman said:


> I'm thinking of selling the dogs and going into parakeets.


How can a 3 oz Parakeet retrieve a 3 pound duck?


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I have been following your thread closely. I would describe my dog exactly as you did Terry. When around _*SOME*_ people he will bow up and show his hackles, occasionally bark. He is 15 months old. Currently I scold him for it tell him to quiet, which he obeys, except the hackles which I am not sure he has any voluntary control over. I will be honest, I have no idea what to do outside of what I have done, and hope for the best. I think this is just what happens when you pick the most confident, bold, outgoing pup in a litter. I will keep an eye out for the stiff body and 10 mile stare. At that point then what??? 

Sue Kiefer said:

What is the answer here??
Not something that I feel should be answered on a public forum. get some professional help.

What keeps people from offering this kind of advice in a public forum? Is it too involved or just something people are ashamed to admit?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> What is the answer here??
> Not something that I feel should be answered on a public forum. get some professional help.
> I have and still do work with aggressive dogs as well as train young dogs. I have absolutely no patience with dogs that bite small children. The dog can always turn and walk away.I am currently raising 2 kids (now 14,9) and my dogs would never ever ever dare bite anyone.


maby the boy was hanging on to the dog and the dog PERCEIVED it could not get away. OR maby the dog PERCEIVED a challenge from the young boy. OR maby the dog was terribly annoyed. In any case the dog did what a large perentage of really nice happy friendly dogs do.
He said" back off" He doesn't have hands. Would we be discusted if the dog pushed him away if he had hands. I don't think so.

This is normal dog behavior. Just because many labradors don't respond this way to peoples challenges and threats and annoyances doesn't mean they are bad when they do. why on earth should we expect to annoy the crap out of an animal and they should lay there and take it. I don't fricken get it. People romantisize things so much that it skews their sence of reality.


It doesn't matter what people think is happening,,,all that matters is what the dog thinks.


By the way Sue I can make your dogs and most dogs lunge and strike my face and never touch them or threaten them as( perceived by human thought processes) Matter of fact I can make my own dogs lunge and bang me in the face in the same exact manner. And they are happy go lucky. just liked yours.

Yes I have tried it,






Pete


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

OMG.
How stupid.
The dog bite a child. If I was there and he bite my son???
The Vet. would be removing my boot from his arse .I have no tolerance for dogs biting children . Period end of story.
Terry was looking for what from us when he posted his thread???
"If" you read my *whole* response, I also hoped that he would find a way to keep his dog BUT not around his family unsupervised. 
Dogs are a dime a dozen.
Kids are precious gifts. 
And why in God's name would you want to make my dogs bite??
Good Grief.
I'm done with this stupid thread.
Sue


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Sue Kiefer said:


> OMG.
> How stupid.
> The dog bite a child. If I was there and he bite my son???
> The Vet. would be removing my boot from his arse .I have no tolerance for dogs biting children . Period end of story.
> ...


I had typed a big response about pack dynamics and a lab that bit it's owner last year. I decided not to wast my time.


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## widowmaker (Feb 4, 2009)

NCHank said:


> How can a 3 oz Parakeet retrieve a 3 pound duck?[/QUOTE
> 
> Perhaps It grips it by the stem.


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## Roger Perry (Nov 6, 2003)

I got my male dog home in October after being with a trainer for 3 years. When my 11 year old female came up to be petted Mac started to attack her because he was jealous. I grabbed Mac by the scruff of his neck and back and shook the he!! out of him. He has not been aggressive toward my female again. I don't know if this will help but it is just an opinion.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Oh that's what that means.....I thought you were allowing the dogs to bang (as in hump) your face Pete. Because really, why in the world would one want ones dog to bite them in the face? I just figured you were enacting a new, albeit radical, form of "stud dog owner clean out" responsiblity

Silly, silly me............


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> The dog bite a child. If I was there and he bite my son???
> The Vet. would be removing my boot from his arse


You werent there and niether was Terry. Sticking a boot up the dogs arse after the fact is an emotional illogical response,,,especially coming from a trainer who claims they work with aggressive dogs. It may make you feel better but it does no good otherwise. Because the absence of a leader,, a dog is prone to do something it otherwise might not. 


Sue 
I don't want to make your dogs bite. But I know I can quite easily. You claimed your dogs will not bite under any circumstance. I called bull chit.

I think the thread has turned quite stupid also. 



> Oh that's what that means.....I thought you were allowing the dogs to bang (as in hump) your face Pete. Because really, why in the world would one want ones dog to bite them in the face? I just figured you were enacting a new, albeit radical, form of "stud dog owner clean out" responsiblity



actually I didn't take it that way when I wrote it
But the reason is

Because I work with aggressive dogs. And I was learning how to turn them on and off with posture and movement. However if I were to do it with a dog outside my pack I'm pretty sure it would be worse than what scooter did. And because of that I know that Sue's dogs are also capable of biting under certain conditions.

That was the point I was trying to make. Most dogs can be made to bite and quite innocently by the way.
whats funny is there are millions of pets dogs and most owner know almost nothing about dog behavior. They know a growl or a snarl means the dog wants to bite. But actually they do so because they don't want to bite.
Its what you cant see or hear that you need to be aware of.;-)

Pete


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Pete said:


> At a puking contest what scooter did would be judged as a birp.
> 
> Your making a big deal out of absolutely almost nothing. Your dog should be complemented for his restraint in that situation.
> Keep the dog, you have a good one.
> ...


You know Pete, That is some very good advice I think. I know what can happen, it ain't gonna happen again if I can help it. We'll work on the attitude.


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## cusportsman (Jun 15, 2009)

Sorry for the toll this has taken on you and your family. I hope and pray that I never have to face this situation.

I'm a fence rider on this one though. Won't tell you what you should do, but I think that you are on the right track.


I do have some serious questions for some more discussion though. As I currently have female dogs and am considering a male down the road. I don't have kids yet, but hope to in the future.

I wonder if the dog would have reacted the same way if it had been your daughter in his face?

Is a male dog more prone to this type of behavior than a female?


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