# Red River



## FOM

Okay this is what I know so far:

Open is a triple. Order is middle, right, left. The left hand bird is a flier. Middle bird is the longer bird and is tight to the right hand bird. As first described to me as a tight double with a flier off the the left. The line to the flier there is a pot hole which if flaired pushes dogs to the middle bird. The line to the middle has a corner of a pond to it, if flaired it pushes dogs to the right hand bird.

So far first dog picked up, second dog not sure of status, third dog did it and fourth dog did a nice job....

Scratches: 1, 12, 14, 34, 42, 62, 65, 68, 88

The Am starts at 9:00 - is a triple. Waiting for more detail on the setup.

No word on the Qual....

FOM


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## Paul Rainbolt

Thanks for the update Lainee. One of those scratches is Ramsie she pulled a mussel in training on Saturday. Ill be down tomorrow to run the NDC with my pup in her first derby.


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## FOM

Update on Am.....triple with 2 retired and a flier. Long middle bird on top of hill thrown to the left. Short left bird below the dike of a pond thrown back and up the dike to the right (converging marks) with flier to the right and fairly tight to the middle gun thrown to the right. Not sure of the order thrown.....that's all I have.

Scratches: 33, 39, 41, 42, 45, 51, 63, 72, 82, 83

Still no update on the Qual....

I did ask if any guns in the Open retired, will post when I find out. Edit: Both dead bird stations retire in the Open....

FOM


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## dogcommand

Lainee, thanks for your posts. For those of watching from afar they are great! Janet


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## duke7581

Thanks for updates and please keep us up to date on Norman and Grady.


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## Shayne Mehringer

Tulsa Slim said:


> Thanks for the update Lainee. One of those scratches is Ramsie she pulled a mussel in training on Saturday. Ill be down tomorrow to run the NDC with my pup in her first derby.


Me too!!! Win or lose, it's an honor just to be qualified!!!!

Sorry to hear about Ramsie. I hope it is not a big deal. Boogie is still very much on the injured list after the shoulder muscle injury at Sooner this fall. He'll likely be out until March or so.

SM


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## 2tall

Any updates here or is it still too early way out west?


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## FOM

The am just finished the first series, waiting for callbacks.


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## FOM

heard 53 are back in the am.... Does not look like open will finish tonight


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## Twolabsplus

Any information on the Qual?


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## 2goldens

I know 17 out of 42 were called back....don't have numbers :-( 
#1 Left Bird Retired 366 yds, #2 Right Bird 153 yds, then #3 Middle Flyer at 267 yds. 180 deg. field. Bliind was 425 up the middle to the left of flyer station.


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## budsdad

Qual callbacks to the water blind at 7:30 tomorrow.

2,3,5,7,10,11,15,16,17,18,20,24,25,29,30,31,39


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## Bayou Magic

Tulsa Slim said:


> Thanks for the update Lainee. One of those scratches is Ramsie she pulled a mussel in training on Saturday. Ill be down tomorrow to run the NDC with my pup in her first derby.


Trained with Pink and Ammo today. Both were impressive.

fp


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## Deborah936

Marty,
Good luck tommorrow with buddy!!


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## budsdad

Thanks. However, Margo is going to be hard to catch!


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## Paul Rainbolt

Bayou Magic said:


> Trained with Pink and Ammo today. Both were impressive.
> 
> fp


 I judged Punch in June, he was a big dog running against pups and that was over 6 months ago. Good luck to all.


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## ramblinmaxx

Bayou Magic said:


> Trained with Pink and Ammo today. Both were impressive.
> 
> fp


Frank,
Is Pink running? Any news on the Derby?

Thanks,
Marty


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## bossdawg

The Qual is still going and my understanding is that they are both there. 1:20 p.m.


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## FOM

No, the derby has not started yet.

Am callbacks to waterblind: 1, 3, 4, 8, 9, 14, 15, 17, 20, 23, 26, 27, 29, 36, 37, 38, 43, 44, 46, 48, 49, 52, 56, 59, 60, 61, 67, 69, 77, 81, 85


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## ramblinmaxx

Pink and Punch are both there? I think maybe I better get headed to Bonham to see this !

Marty


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## FOM

qual placements

1st - 39 tank - avant
2nd - 20 Rainey - Boley
3rd - 17 cowboy - Avant
4th - 10 pope - Avant
RJ - 7 Barkley 
Jams - 2, 11, 16

Derby running test dog


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## FOM

Punch, Pink and Ammo have run & did the first.


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## Shayne Mehringer

derby has run 10 or so dogs. Pink and Punch both did real nice as did several others.

its WINDY!

SM


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## Granddaddy

Not that one heads up competition like this derby really tells us who's best, except that day, best wishes to both & may the best dog win. And as for winning, I think there are a number of other good dogs there that will probably have a say in this too - good luck to all.


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## scott spalding

there is real nice dog work so far this is going to be a good one.
________
Suzuki gsx-r600


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## Guest

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Me too!!! Win or lose, it's an honor just to be qualified!!!!


Now this deserves some recognition. That is funny right there. :lol:


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## FOM

Derby has called it night - 14 dogs left


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## JKL

How about the Open ? How far did they get today ?


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## David Maddox

BIG CONGRATS to my buddy Dale Willard, Clint Avant and their wonderful dog Blackwater Cosmic War Machine- "Tank" for a big Qualifying win.


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## Granddaddy

FOM said:


> Derby has called it night - 14 dogs left



14 dogs left in the 1st series? or 14 dogs left in the derby?


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## Angie B

Granddaddy said:


> 14 dogs left in the 1st series? or 14 dogs left in the derby?


14 left in the first series....

Angie


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## Shayne Mehringer

Granddaddy said:


> 14 dogs left in the 1st series? or 14 dogs left in the derby?


14 dogs left to run the first series. 

FYI.... Shaelee Edwards was AWESOME with FC/AFC Anna as a Jr Handler in the derby.

SM


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## firehouselabs

GO PINK AND AMMO!!! Sorry Punch, gotta stick with the girls!!!!!!!


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## Jim Scarborough

Congratulations to Dale Willard and Clint Avant on their win in a tough Qual with their fine dog Tank. They were due.


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## smillerdvm

What time will the Derby start up in the morning?


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## bfarmer

7:30am is what I hear.


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## scott spalding

7:30 here temp is 64 with about 30+mph wind nothing going on yet.
________
Fix Ps3


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## Chris S.

******unofficial AMAT Callbacks******
To the water marks, 15 dogs
1 Chubby/Jim Pickering
8 Morey/ Mark Rosenblum
9 Abby/ Dan Hurst
14 Rooster/Linda Noga
15 Jr/ Sharon Gierman
20 Buster/ Charles Bearden
26 Ruth/Gary Friudenberg
38 Norman/Mark R.
43 Wiz/Scott Carruth
46 Crockett/Mary Tatum
49 Rudy/ Charles B.
56 Louie/ Chad Baker
60 Brody/ Jeff Henard
67 Pal/ Mark R.
81. Libby/ Mary T.

**Un official***


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## scott spalding

1 dog let in the derby. 1st test was long right hand bird thrown right to left into high cover 317 yards. Right Hand bird was left to right shot flyer at 190 yards.
________
THREESOME FETISH


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## TBell

Additional updates today on http://www.findretrievers.com/news/


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## dogcommand

Hey guys I know the derby is a hot contest but does anyone know anything about the open? It is Sunday and I haven't heard anythin since Friday.


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## Glenda Brown

From what I heard, Janet, they still had dogs left in the Open to run the waterblind this a.m.

Glenda


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## Shayne Mehringer

dogcommand said:


> Hey guys I know the derby is a hot contest but does anyone know anything about the open? It is Sunday and I haven't heard anythin since Friday.


Is there an Open going on this weekend????

Derby just ran test dog on 2nd series. 23 back.
2nd is a double thrown converging on a hill side. Pretty open. Go bird at 169 thrown with a very strong wind. Memory bird at 248 thrown into the wind. Dogs have to carry a hillside and shoulder the wind to stay on the right side of the memory gun. Its a good mark. With time certainly becoming an issue, it likely won't take much of a hiccup to get tossed on this one.

SM


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## dogcommand

Ya Shayne there is an Open Clause. Some pretty good dogs running in it too!

Thanks Glenda


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## JKL

TBell said:


> Additional updates today on http://www.findretrievers.com/news/


Great reporting! I love it!


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## SFLabs

Just got off the phone with Micki, Derby just ran test dog on 4th series. 20 dogs called back to 4th:

1,2,4,6,7,9,10,12,13,14,16,17,20,21,22,25,26,29,33,35.

Short bird with water at 235 
Long bird at 289 with a shot flyer on land



Santa Fe Labs


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## K G

They gonna cut it close on daylight? 

kg


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## dogcommand

quote: Additional updates today on http://www.findretrievers.com/news/____________

Cool, better reporting there than on RTF! Hmmmm! Even has Open info.


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## Miriam Wade

Anybody able to explain dog #6 in the Derby: FC AFC Texanna Yellowgold MH? (Based on running order on ee) Who is the "real" dog #6?
M


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## YardleyLabs

How can they possibly finish with 20 dogs and sunset at about 5:15 PM when they only started at about 4:15?


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## Bryan Manning

Shayne Mehringer said:


> FYI.... Shaelee Edwards was AWESOME with FC/AFC Anna as a Jr Handler in the derby.
> 
> SM


Dog #6 is Shaelee as a JR. handler I think.


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## WRL

Miriam Wade said:


> Anybody able to explain dog #6 in the Derby: FC AFC Texanna Yellowgold MH? (Based on running order on ee) Who is the "real" dog #6?
> M



That is the real dog. Its being run by a Junior.

It is essentially running out of contention because it is obviously aged out but junior handlers are able to run "unqualified" dogs in certain situations.

WRL


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## Glenda Brown

I know who got the RJ in the Open but no one else as Karl just called me. Buddy!!!
Watermark's Power Punch. Really pleased as he is just getting a start in AA.

Glenda


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## Miriam Wade

tuffpup said:


> Dog #6 is Shaelee as a JR. handler I think.



Oh! With abslutely no disrespect to the Junior handler: How does that work having an FC AFC competing in the Derby? Can that dog win or do points go to the next dog placing that is eligible-i.e. uner 2 years old?

M


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## Miriam Wade

Thanks Lee! THAT makes sense!

Congratulations Glenda!!!!!!!!!!!!

M


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## thunderdan

That is great Brenda and Buddy. 

Congrats...


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## Granddaddy

Understand they have scrapped the 4th (derby) about 1/2 way through running with little additional separation, going back to 3rd series standings for placements.


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## Shayne Mehringer

They scrapped the last series of the derby with several dogs left to run because it was getting dark. Going to judge it to the 3rd series and pick a winner. Several dogs are really clean so there is no gallery favorite. 

SM


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## JKL

Can you scrap a test without a replacement ....... I don't think you can.


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## Guest

I've got Gassner on the phone (lucky me) and he said once you start a series, whether you scrap it or not, you must run that series. So they either need to finish the 4th they already set up or run a different 4th series.

Anyone care to comment?


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## Guest

Sounds like someone needs to call the FT committee so they can let the judges they need to stop turning pages and make plans for tomorrow morning?


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## Granddaddy

This would not be the first time a series has been scrapped & placements determined by the completed series. Don't ask me when but it's been done (usually weather related). I don't think they have to complete any particular number of series just test the dogs on land & water, which they have done. IMO, they just have to disregard 4th series if it is not completed. 

I'd love to see rule references saying if a 4th series is scrapped it has to be rerun.......anyone?


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## JKL

the judges may discontinue a test where not all dogs have run provided they substitute it with a new test. Quoted from rule book


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## Granddaddy

reference please..........


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## Roger Perry

What happens if some handlers left to go home thinking the trial was over and a 4th series has to be run tomorrow? Next question is if the judges do make placements based on 3 series what kind of protest would be made or would the club have to discount the whole derby?


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## Guest

Heard they are just about to hand out derby placements. :shock:


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## dr_dog_guy

Congratulations, Glenda, that's great!


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## Angie B

Roger Perry said:


> What happens if some handlers left to go home thinking the trial was over and a 4th series has to be run tomorrow? Next question is if the judges do make placements based on 3 series what kind of protest would be made or would the club have to discount the whole derby?


No handlers went home after the 3rd... Believe me. Maybe some spectators.... Handlers were going to wait for callbacks and further instructions...;-)

Angie


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## junbe

Trial Procedure sec 3 under standard procedure for non-slip retriever trials.

Jack


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## Marvin S

Granddaddy said:


> reference please..........


September 2006, Page 42 - "When a test is discontinued after one or more competing dogs have run, the Judges should exercise care to locate the substitute test in an area different from that in which the original test was held in order to avoid favor or prejudice to those dogs which have run the original test." 

Only reference I can locate to changing tests - but it would say to me that another test needs to be run. They apparently did'nt have clear cut placements or they wouldn't have started the series. & there is a lot riding on the outcome. 

Junbe is correct Page 26 -


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## Granddaddy

I know the language Marvin, but that happens to be from the Supplement & not the rules.


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## mitchbrown

i hope they didn't pass out placements without running another test!!!!!
ask pat martin about it.the AKC will throw it out and the pts will not count.


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## Granddaddy

junbe said:


> Trial Procedure sec 3 under standard procedure for non-slip retriever trials.
> 
> Jack


Jack, Isn't that also a Supplement reference?

The answer to my question is no, it's from the rules. See quoted language below......


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## Roger Perry

Which dog is leading in Derby Points, Punch or Pink?


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## WRL

Roger Perry said:


> Which dog is leading in Derby Points, Punch or Pink?


Punch by 1 pt.

WRL


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## David Barrow

Could this be another like SJRC a couple of years ago?


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## Guest

Granddaddy said:


> I know the language Marvin, but that happens to be from the Supplement & not the rules.


Supplement is to Rules as Addendum is to Contract, no?


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## junbe

This trial is licensed to follow the rules, procedures, and the regulations of AKC. The procedure is clear. If the judges start another series, they must either complete the series or scrap it and substitute another series. Since the judges did give call backs and start another series, the procedure gives no other alternative.

Jack


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## Granddaddy

Here's the language I couldn't find originally. Thanks to Junbe for the reference:

"The Judges may discontinue any test before it has been completed,
provided that another test is substituted therefor. The
performance of a dog in a test which has been discontinued
shall not be considered for any purpose in the evaluation
of the work of that dog in the stake."

from the current AKC rules.........


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## Granddaddy

Word now is they are "unscrapping 4th" & continuing tomorrow......


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## Granddaddy

Melanie Foster said:


> Supplement is to Rules as Addendum is to Contract, no?



No. In this case the rules are the rules & the supplement are recommendations, as in RAC Recommedations. But it turns out there is a rule as indicated above.


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## birdthrower51

Was it because of the Open or Amt. contestants that delayed getting the dogs to the Derby? Did the Open and Amt. finish? Any placements there?
Wouldn't want to be in the middle of this.


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## Granddaddy

Melanie Foster said:


> So I can learn something from this, can you explain your reference to supplements--twice--as if they didn't mean anything?


There are Field Trials Rules and Standard Procedures. My quote of the applicable rule is provided above. Junebe provided the actual applicable section reference that I quoted above.

Marvin's statement came from the Retriever Advisory Committee Recommendations which is titled "Supplement to the Standard Procedure". The "Supplement" is not a part of the rules rather recommendations for clarification only. If you read the introductory paragraph to the "Supplement" you will get a better understanding of their intent.


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## Granddaddy

birdthrower51 said:


> Was it because of the Open or Amt. contestants that delayed getting the dogs to the Derby? Did the Open and Amt. finish? Any placements there?
> Wouldn't want to be in the middle of this.



No, since the judges of the derby also judged the qualifying, I'm thinking it was delayed by the Q.


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## Jim Scarborough

The FT committee has ruled that the 4th Series will be finished in the morning with seven dogs still to run.


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## mouth plumber

If a series is officially canceled by the judges, can it be restarted again by the trial committee.


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## Angie B

mouth plumber said:


> If a series is officially canceled by the judges, can it be restarted again by the trial committee.


I think so... The field trial committee oversees everything.....

Angie


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## FOM

Open results

1st - Maggie & Mike
2nd - Tommie & Bill
3rd - Morey & Danny
4th - Truman & Bill
RJ - Buddy & Karl

Do not know JAMS


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## FOM

Am placements (confirmed, now)

1st - Morey & Mark
2nd - Norman & Mark
3rd - Rudy & Charles B.
4th - Wiz & Scott

That is all I have - sorry for slow reporting, been driving all day....


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## FOM

Clarification on the Derby 4th series. It was NEVER cancled or scrapped, it was SUSPENDED. That is directly from the FTC & judges.


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## Granddaddy

LOL, that's a lot better wording........


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## Angie B

FOM said:


> Clarification on the Derby 4th series. It was NEVER cancled or scrapped, it was SUSPENDED. That is directly from the FTC & judges.


Well there ya go!! That'll work!!! ;-)

Angie


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## HarryWilliams

Suspended = a state of suspense while awaiting results from cyberspace. 

It seems a good opportunnity to have a 5th series. HPW


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## stevelow

Congratulations, Buddy, Glenda and Karl on the Open RJ!!!


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## Granddaddy

6-7 dogs left to run the derby 4th. 1/3 to 1/2 of the field going to the 4th had a reasonable chance to win according to several in attendance, i.e., its close for a number of dogs. Lots of good pups in this field, may the best dog win.........


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## SMITTYSSGTUSMC

where is the streaming video when you need it!!!

This reporting rock


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## scott spalding

Temp is 26 and about 25 mph wind Monday at 7:53. They are just setting up to finish the fourth. It is very cold out.
________
Gay sex


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## Jim Scarborough

Word from one of the participants is that it is 26 degrees in Bonham, with the wind-chill at 13 degrees. The wind has shifted and is gusting out of the north to 25 mph. The dogs are coming out of the water with ice on them, and long, ugly hunts seem to be the norm this morning. A completely different test this morning from the one the dogs ran yesterday afternoon, especially with the flyer. A real mess for what has been billed as the Derby Dog Super Bowl. I'm sure the judges would consider scrapping the test and starting over if they weren't already a day late. It's a shame.


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## JKL

Good luck Scott. We are all rooting for you and Pink back here at home!! And however it all ends up, Pink is a wonderful animal!


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## jrock

> Temp is 26 and about 25 mph wind Monday at 7:53. They are just setting up to finish the fourth. It is very cold out.


My dogs would love those conditions right now. It currently is -11 with wind chill at -37. My dogs won't even go outside to go to the bathroom.


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## Paul Rainbolt

First series National Derby Championship Marshal Lainee (FOM) with pro Bill Schrader. The dent in Bills truck was caused be a 12 point Kansas buck.


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## MDowney

Pink comes in fouth. So it is now a tie for high point derby dog


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## bfarmer

Congrats to Tim Milligan on a great trial with all 3 of his dogs! Congrats Jeff Kimble and Boo on your 3rd place!


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## jeff t.

Angie B said:


> No handlers went home after the 3rd... Believe me. Maybe some spectators.... Angie


I believe they may have lost one handler...


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## Bob Rehmet

Just thinking about it... Tight points race, really great and potientially great young dogs, wild weather changes, running over into Monday, everybody second guessing every decision. I wish to hell that I had gotten up and driven back to Bonham this morning just to be there. This is a legend in the making. Twenty years from now, there will be at least a thousand people who will claim to have been in the gallery. What an honor to finish this one.


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## Shayne Mehringer

MDowney said:


> Pink comes in fouth. So it is now a tie for high point derby dog


In the case of a tie, my understanding is that they will go back to number of JAMs.

Either way, Pink ran a flawless trial from what I saw..... but so did several others. I would not have wanted the job of making the placements.

SM


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## Jason E.

MDowney said:


> Pink comes in fouth. So it is now a tie for high point derby dog


what did Punch get ?/


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## SMITTYSSGTUSMC

MDowney said:


> Pink comes in fouth. So it is now a tie for high point derby dog


is this the end result did they tie for-sure ???


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## firehouselabs

What were the placements?


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## SMITTYSSGTUSMC

Shayne Mehringer said:


> In the case of a tie, my understanding is that they will go back to number of JAMs.
> 
> Either way, Pink ran a flawless trial from what I saw..... but so did several others. I would not have wanted the job of making the placements.
> 
> SM


how many does each have !!!

I have been refreshing this page all morning long


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## Lpgar

Doesn't a 4th get 1/2 point?? If so Pink is 1/2 point behind Punch.


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## rolando_cornelio

4th gets 1 point


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## firehouselabs

Not in Derby, it's 1 point for fourth place


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## Frenchy

Nope, Derby fourth earns a full point. AA fourth earns 1/2 point.


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## SMITTYSSGTUSMC

what is the final outcome is it punch or pink I want to get some sleep some time this week!!!!!

Up all night reguards

Smitty


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## Lpgar

Congratulations to both Pink and Punch. Karma is proud to be Pink's littermate and was cheering from afair


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## TMURRAY

bfarmer said:


> Congrats to Tim Milligan on a great trial with all 3 of his dogs! Congrats Jeff Kimble and Boo on your 3rd place!


Big congrats to Tim and the Dogwoods team!!!!!


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## 2tall

So what are the RESULTS???????


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## Micmacgoldens

I'm thinking that with the number of entries Punch has had VS Pink's lesser number of entries, Punch would have more Jams than Pink. This could work well for Pink and her chances of being the #1 Derby dog in 2009. Just saying....


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## TBell

Results are on http://www.findretrievers.com/news/


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## YardleyLabs

If Shayne is right and they next count JAM's it may be interesting. On EE, Pink shows 7 and Punch shows 5 not counting if Punch received a JAM today or anything not shown on EE. It seems fitting to have the year end in a tie with two such great dogs.


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## golden boy 2

It didn't show Punch's jam last weekend or this weekend so add 2


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## Karen McCullah

TBell said:


> Results are on http://www.findretrievers.com/news/


I can't access that site from my blackberry...can u pls just post the results here??


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## golden boy 2

Punch had another RJ in a RTF trial so that makes at least 8 jams


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## Greg Seddon

Wiredlabz said:


> I can't access that site from my blackberry...can u pls just post the results here??


*Derby placements*

7Bear Creek’s King LouieKelly HepworthKarl Gunzer/Cyndi Gunzer
1Silvertip’s Total CommitmentRob Erhardt JrRobert Erhardt
13Dogwoods Fear FactorJeff KimbleTim Milligan/Jeff Kimble
10TRULINES WALLA WALLA SWEETmichael spaldingMichael Spalding/Karl Gunzer


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## FOM

1st - 7 Bear Creek’s King Louie - Gunzer
2nd - 1 Silvertip’s Total Commitment - Erhardt
3rd - 13 Dogwoods Fear Factor - Milligan
4th - 10 Trulines Walla Walla Sweet - Spalding


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## K G

Wiredlabz said:


> I can't access that site from my blackberry...can u pls just post the results here??


I've got the same problem...would be nice to be able to access FR like we can EE from a Blackberry.

Who got the jams?

kg


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## Karen McCullah

Thanks! 
Congrats to scott/pink on the placement! Wish I coulda been there to see, although from what I heard it was a zoo! 
When will we know about the final count and who makes the announcement for HPDD?


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## Bayou Magic

FOM said:


> 1st - 7 Bear Creek’s King Louie - Gunzer
> 2nd - 1 Silvertip’s Total Commitment - Erhardt
> 3rd - 13 Dogwoods Fear Factor - Milligan
> 4th - 10 Trulines Walla Walla Sweet - Spalding


No JAMs?

fp


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## Shayne Mehringer

Bayou Magic said:


> No JAMs?
> 
> fp


I'm sure they had a BUNCH of JAMS... including Punch.

It was an interesting derby. Congrats to Pink and Punch for an amazing year. If in fact Punch pulls it out for 2008, good luck to Pink in 2009!

This is similar to Banner and Dusty when it came down to the last trial and Dusty ended up with the title, Banner got it the following year.

Good stuff.

SM


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## Karen McCullah

Shayne Mehringer said:


> I'm sure they had a BUNCH of JAMS... including Punch.
> 
> It was an interesting derby. Congrats to Pink and Punch for an amazing year. If in fact Punch pulls it out for 2008, good luck to Pink in 2009!
> 
> Good stuff.
> 
> SM


Are there any dogs that are trailing pink that still have a while to run before they age out? Any that could run that triple d/q in jan and pass her?


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## stevelow

Congratulations to Cyndi Gunzer on her Derby win with Louie! Not only did she win a tough Derby, but she also won over the two dogs now tied for top Derby dog for 2008, as well as at least two other high point derby dogs. Cyndi is fairly new to running Field Trials, but she is out there every day training, and this win is very well deserved. I feel honored to be able to train with Cyndi and Karl. 

Also, congratulations to Rob Erhardt on the Derby second with Crede, a litter brother of Louie.


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## FOM

Bayou Magic said:


> No JAMs?
> 
> fp


I'm sure there was.....sorry I'm back at work, so getting info is a little tougher.


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## Glenda Brown

Big, big congratulations to Louie and Creed----from their Mom, Darby!!!! Way to go kids.

That's terrific for both Cyndi and Rob----worth the overnight stay.

Glenda


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## SMITTYSSGTUSMC

Greg Seddon said:


> *Derby placements*
> 
> 7Bear Creek’s King LouieKelly HepworthKarl Gunzer/Cyndi Gunzer
> 1Silvertip’s Total CommitmentRob Erhardt JrRobert Erhardt
> 13Dogwoods Fear FactorJeff KimbleTim Milligan/Jeff Kimble
> 10TRULINES WALLA WALLA SWEETmichael spaldingMichael Spalding/Karl Gunzer


Greg

Do you have any plans on being CA at all next year? I have a female out of gunner and she is doing very well will start her hunt test career in the spring. I sure would like to see him run I have heard nothing but great things about him.

Smitty


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## stevelow

Looks like Pink and Punch are tied for top Derby dog for 2008, a great accomplishments for both. Neither will be a factor in 2009. Punch ages out on 12/24/08, Pink on 1/1/09.

Karl Gunzer trained Pink for the past month, and she is a joy to watch.


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## Annette

Congratulations Cyndi on the win with Louie.
Congratulation Rob for the second with Crede
Good going Scott for the fouth with Pink. You and Bill have had a great time this year.
Marie


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## mouth plumber

From what I can find on the RFT and Entry Express sites, I count 8 jams and reserve jams for Punch and 7 for Pink. I did not count a jam for Punch for todays derby. Anyone else checking?


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## Jim Scarborough

My congratulations to the Ronan, Montana gang. Kudos to the Gunzers, especially to handler Cyndi, for winning the most hyped Derby in years with Louie, who just happens to be a litter mate to the second place dog, Creed, run by Rob Erhardt, who also "summers" in Ronan. My compliments to both these fine trainers and their good dogs. I've run against both of these dogs and can attest they are talented enough to win any Derby they enter, even the Derby Super Bowl. 

Congratulations also to Pink, as well as to Punch, on their outstanding Derby careers.


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## Mark Rosenblum

Wow what a tight Derby race! 

_Retriever News_ is proud to be the keeper of the *Charles Morgan Memorial Derby Dog *trophy which is a wonderful 3 ft by 2 ft carved wood and silver permanent award. The owner of the 2008 High Point Derby Dog receives a beautiful Revere 6 inch silver bowl. 

Calculating the winner(s) is based solely on derby placements. The "jam" conversation ( on the RTF) relates to the tiebreaker used in the Purina award for Open and Amateur dogs . 

The_ News _has awarded co high point derby dogs dating all the way back to 1959. There was a co high point open dogs in 1992. So ,if indeed the points come out as a tie, we will have co *"2008 High Point Derby Dogs"* for this year.

As always the News requires the signed catalogs before making results official.


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## EdA

Kudos also to Cherylon Loveland who trained Louie until September '08.

I ran Louie in training over Labor Day weekend when I was at Cherylon's to pickup Chef, he (Louie) is a cool dog


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## JeffLusk

Nice job scott on the 4th place finish! 

Congrats to Punch and Pink for making a hell of a run for high point derby dog!!!!


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## oaklandbay

Ok I have a count of 8 and 8 RJ & J for the two of the. So with this does that mean we have a dual derby champion?


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## ramblinmaxx

I believe it would be Co-Champions even if one of them had more Jams than the other. Jams don't come into the count on Derby.

Marty


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## Arturo

oaklandbay said:


> Ok I have a count of 8 and 8 RJ & J for the two of the. So with this does that mean we have a dual derby champion?


They have the same amount of points. They tie. End of story. There have been ties before and will probably be ties in the future. J's RJ's BJ's none of them count .....


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## jeff t.

Mark Rosenblum said:


> Calculating the winner(s) is based solely on derby placements. The "jam" conversation ( on the RTF) relates to the tiebreaker used in the Purina award for Open and Amateur dogs .


 
Thanks for the clarification Mark.


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## mpage

Congrats Cyndi / Rob and too the owners of the 2 top derby dogs for 08.


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## Tim West

Arturo, J's, and RJ's don't count.

B_'s always count


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## Arturo

Tim West said:


> Arturo, J's, and RJ's don't count.
> 
> B_'s always count


I stand corrected! Good eye!;-)

Agreeing all the way regards,
Arturo


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## Paul Rainbolt

*Coolwaters Knockout, Red River Retriever Club Derby 1st series*


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## Paul Rainbolt

*Punch*


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## Shayne Mehringer

Tulsa Slim said:


> *Coolwaters Knockout, Red River Retriever Club Derby 1st series*


Thats AWESOME!!! Looks like an Aflac commercial!

SM


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## Mark Sehon

Congrats on all the placements and jams!!


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## dr_dog_guy

I'll reiterate Jim's Congratulations to the Ronan crew, Karl, Cyndi, and Rob. Way to go, guys (my home team).


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## Bill Burks

Tim West said:


> Arturo, J's, and RJ's don't count.
> 
> B_'s always count



Tim's right


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## Angie B

"Punch" is gorgeous!!

Angie


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## scott spalding

Thanks to everyone at the Red River trial for a great weekend. Lots of nice dogs in all of the stakes and wonderfull grounds.
________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DOCTOR


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## HarryWilliams

Scott, Congratulations on a fantastic Derby career for Pink. I remember what she looks like but maybe you could get a picture of her posted for us all to enjoy. Harry


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## Karen McCullah

YA! Where are the pictures of the other top dogs???
Anyone take any? I thought for sure there'd be way more coverage since this was so big....


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## ramblinmaxx

Wiredlabz said:


> YA! Where are the pictures of the other top dogs???
> Anyone take any? I thought for sure there'd be way more coverage since this was so big....


Sorry, I was in such a big hurry to get up there to watch the derby I forgot my camera.

Marty


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## Karen McCullah

ramblinmaxx said:


> Sorry, I was in such a big hurry to get up there to watch the derby I forgot my camera.
> 
> Marty


Well that's ok! I just wanted to know if anyone remembered to take any! Knowing me, I'd bring the camera and leave it there hanging around my neck! LOL

Sooooo? anyone got more pics??


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## Angie B

Wiredlabz said:


> YA! Where are the pictures of the other top dogs???
> Anyone take any? I thought for sure there'd be way more coverage since this was so big....


I brought my camera,,, but for once I was visiting/gossiping with the girls/gallery instead of working...

For once,,,,

Sorry....

Angie


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## bill hall

we left friday morning from iowa too watch the derby/ punch/hillman. What a derby, the only thing iam very disapointed in is the sportsmanship of Mr spaulding and his idiot remarks leading up too the derby on line. My Dad always told me if your good youll never need too tell a soul because people will already know about you.
Billy Hillman never made a peep leading up too this trail, nor afterwards, now thats first class. Ill never forget watching him on the line with punch, even after he had a hunt in the 2nd series he still had a warm smile on his face coming off the line. He is a legend and always will be, the old saying is still true////// When your winning no one likes you, when your losing no one cares. I do feel punch and pink are great animals, but theres a big separation when it comes too each ones handlers. There is no excuse for the crap that Mr spaulding put on the net, Remeber//// / Words once spoken cannot be retrieved.
Sincerely 
Bill Hall


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## Russ Lain

EdA said:


> Kudos also to Cherylon Loveland who trained Louie until September '08.
> 
> I ran Louie in training over Labor Day weekend when I was at Cherylon's to pickup Chef, he (Louie) is a cool dog


I agree ED, Cherylon did a nice job on Louie's early training. I train full time with Karl and Cyndi Gunzer where Louie has been since September. It's been fun to watch him progress from a nice "cool dog" into a Cool Exceptional Field Trial Prospect!! It was also fun to watch Cyndi and Louie working as a team! Congratulation also to Rob Erhardt for his 2nd with Creed, who by the way is a littermate to Louie!

Russ


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## JKL

bill hall said:


> we left friday morning from iowa too watch the derby/ punch/hillman. What a derby, the only thing iam very disapointed in is the sportsmanship of Mr spaulding and his idiot remarks leading up too the derby on line. My Dad always told me if your good youll never need too tell a soul because people will already know about you.
> Billy Hillman never made a peep leading up too this trail, nor afterwards, now thats first class. Ill never forget watching him on the line with punch, even after he had a hunt in the 2nd series he still had a warm smile on his face coming off the line. He is a legend and always will be, the old saying is still true////// When your winning no one likes you, when your losing no one cares. I do feel punch and pink are great animals, but theres a big separation when it comes too each ones handlers. There is no excuse for the crap that Mr spaulding put on the net, Remeber//// / Words once spoken cannot be retrieved.
> Sincerely
> Bill Hall


If you were offended by anything Scott Spalding said then you obviously misinterpreted his words. Scott is one of the most harmless individuals in this game. 
He has said nothing insulting regarding Bill Hillman or Punch, rather made numerous compliments. 
Bill Hillman is a professional dog trainer and good for him for acting as such.
Scott Spalding is the owner of a wonderful dog, good for him for being proud of her.


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## Gun_Dog2002

Angie B said:


> I brought my camera,,, but for once I was visiting/gossiping with the girls/gallery instead of working...
> 
> For once,,,,
> 
> Sorry....
> 
> Angie


Well geez, got any pictures of that?

/Paul


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## Howard N

> for once I was visiting/gossiping with the girls/gallery instead of working...


Now c'mon Angie, whatever happened to multi-tasking.


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## Angie B

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well geez, got any pictures of that?
> 
> /Paul


No,,, Sorry... Too busy..... Acting like everyone else. 

I could get used to this....

Angie


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## Angie B

Howard N said:


> Now c'mon Angie, whatever happened to multi-tasking.


For once I was just part of the gallery enjoying the day...

Angie


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## Russ Lain

bill hall said:


> we left friday morning from iowa too watch the derby/ punch/hillman. What a derby, the only thing iam very disapointed in is the sportsmanship of Mr spaulding and his idiot remarks leading up too the derby on line. My Dad always told me if your good youll never need too tell a soul because people will already know about you.
> Billy Hillman never made a peep leading up too this trail, nor afterwards, now thats first class. Ill never forget watching him on the line with punch, even after he had a hunt in the 2nd series he still had a warm smile on his face coming off the line. He is a legend and always will be, the old saying is still true////// When your winning no one likes you, when your losing no one cares. I do feel punch and pink are great animals, but theres a big separation when it comes too each ones handlers. There is no excuse for the crap that Mr spaulding put on the net, Remeber//// / Words once spoken cannot be retrieved.
> Sincerely
> Bill Hall


I agree with Kim, Scott is a class act and did'nt say anything derogatory about anyone or any dog!!

The question is!! Who is *Bill Hall* that just joined RTF for this one slanderous post?:-x

Russ


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## Annette

I have run Derbies with Scott Spalding. He is a very nice young man. I don't think Bill Hillman needs Bill Hall to go to bat for him. What is this with first time posters? Why don't you introduce yourself? Who are you really?


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## K G

bill hall said:


> we left friday morning from iowa too watch the derby/ punch/hillman. What a derby, the only thing iam very disapointed in is the sportsmanship of Mr spaulding and his idiot remarks leading up too the derby on line. My Dad always told me if your good youll never need too tell a soul because people will already know about you.


Interesting. _My_ Dad would have told me that a GREAT way to lose credibility is to make disparaging remarks about someone _else's_ alledged disparaging remarks, especially in my _first post on a forum_.



> Billy Hillman never made a peep leading up too this trail, nor afterwards, now thats first class. Ill never forget watching him on the line with punch, even after he had a hunt in the 2nd series he still had a warm smile on his face coming off the line. He is a legend and always will be, the old saying is still true////// When your winning no one likes you, when your losing no one cares. I do feel punch and pink are great animals, but theres a big separation when it comes too each ones handlers. There is no excuse for the crap that Mr spaulding put on the net, Remeber//// / Words once spoken cannot be retrieved.
> Sincerely
> Bill Hall


Not that it matters, but one is a pro, one is an amateur. You won't find _too_ many field trial pros posting here on RTF, although I _do_ believe a _lot_ of them read it. As for words spoken and their irretrievability, that knife cuts both ways.

No doubt Mr. Hillman is an incredible dog man. The proof is in the production. Creating high point derby dogs in multiples is a herculean accomplishment alone, much less making dogs that go on to become FC/AFCs and even NAFCs. I can't argue that _is_ the stuff that makes a "legend." No doubt about it, Bill has made his mark on the sport of retriever field trials.

In more ways than one regards,

kg


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## scott spalding

I had the pleasure of running behind Bill Hilman this weekend. Until one runs this race they cannot realize the level of work it must take to do this year after year, as Mr Hillman has done. I had the pleasure of watching and competing against the current top derby dog trained by the most successful trainer of Derby dogs in many years. I did not go into this event hoping to prove I had a better dog, and if that is how it appeared I am sorry. What I can tell you is Punch is everything that one could hope for in a dog. It could have easily gone either way last weekend. I am still unsure about how the final score is tallied, but I will be very proud to say Pink shared this acomplishment with Punch, if that is how it ends up. I would also like to say congratulations to the winner of the derby and the other placements and jams. Thanks to the workers and contestants who stayed over on Monday to run their dogs in less than perfect conditions to make this trial official.
________
Lovely Wendie99


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## zipmarc

bill hall said:


> What a derby, the only thing iam very disapointed in is the sportsmanship of Mr spaulding and his idiot remarks leading up too the derby on line. My Dad always told me if your good youll never need too tell a soul because people will already know about you.
> Bill Hall


I don't see what's wrong with saying that. Trieven Retrievers, Sungold Retrievers, Jay and Val Walker's "logo" ad used to read:"When you're good, people notice."


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## K G

zipmarc said:


> I don't see what's wrong with saying that. Trieven Retrievers, Sungold Retrievers, Jay and Val Walker's "logo" ad use to read:"If you're good, people notice."


If being a "good" trainer/judge/competitor/breeder is all you're _known_ for, that's fine.....

kg


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## Paul Rainbolt

Bill and Ammo, 1st series Red River derby


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## Paul Rainbolt

*Ammo with a very live flyer*


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## HarryWilliams

> The question is!! Who is *Bill Hall* that just joined RTF for this one slanderous post?:-x


There is a William Hall listed in "Callbacks" from Iowa. If that is him then let's give him credit for using his real name!!!! However, after reading his post I think he could be a very confused individual. HPW


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## bill hall

Mr williams, yes i just joined retrievertraining.net and i think its a wonderful site. I certainly did not join it for anything other then too stay keep in touch with whats going on in the field trial news etc. All i did was stated the facts and if that bothers you so be it. I think you need too read my post again then maybe you will understand it better.
PS/ if there is anything you wish to know about Bill Hall/ just ask i would be more than happy too tell you.
Sincerely
Bill Hall


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## Arturo

K G said:


> .................... Bill has made his mark on the sport of retriever field trials.
> 
> *In more ways than one* regards,
> 
> kg


Whachutalkinboutwillis? The man can do it as a professional. The man can do it as an amateur. The man can even do it as a professional and an amateur both at the same time. The man is good! Cut him some slack!


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## Roger Perry

I cannot find in the rules the number of points a dog gets for winning a derby, 2nd in derby, 3rd in derby and 4th in derby. I can only find the champion points 1st 5, 2nd 3, 3rd 1 and 4th 1/2 points


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## mjh345

bill hall said:


> we left friday morning from iowa too watch the derby/ punch/hillman. What a derby, the only thing iam very disapointed in is the sportsmanship of Mr spaulding and his idiot remarks leading up too the derby on line. My Dad always told me if your good youll never need too tell a soul because people will already know about you.
> Billy Hillman never made a peep leading up too this trail, nor afterwards, now thats first class. Ill never forget watching him on the line with punch, even after he had a hunt in the 2nd series he still had a warm smile on his face coming off the line. He is a legend and always will be, the old saying is still true////// When your winning no one likes you, when your losing no one cares. I do feel punch and pink are great animals, but theres a big separation when it comes too each ones handlers. There is no excuse for the crap that Mr spaulding put on the net, Remeber//// / Words once spoken cannot be retrieved.
> Sincerely
> Bill Hall


If this post is any indication of your ability to judge class, then I would be honored to be considered classless by you.

I had never met Mr Spalding before. However after this weekend, I would be happy to meet, train with, trial against him or whatever. I found him to be a fierce competitor and a gentleman. He also happens to own a very nice dog

What actions did you find classless by Mr. Spalding? You refer to the "crap" that he put on the net. I read that thread, and from my recollection, all he did was make some posts trying to encourage some head to head competition in the last 2 Derbies of the year, between the top contenders. You would call that Classless; I would call that Gamesmanship.

In a similar vein, Mr Hillman entered multiple dogs in all 5 trials held on the weekend of December 5th. This prevented anyone from knowing which trial he would actually be attending. Would you call this Classless? I wouldn't, I'd call it Gamesmanship. If he attempted to get any refunds from any of the other 4 trials that he didn't attend, then I would have a different word to describe it.

You also referred to Punch's "hunt" in the second series. The general consensus amongst the fellow competitors and gallery members that I spoke with was that Punch would not be called back; especially in light of the callbacks in the first where a number of dogs were dropped that had much shorter more disciplined hunts than what Punch had in the second. The thinking was that the judges were aware of the lack of time available and were making their cuts accordingly. After the callbacks were announced, Mr Spalding, was asked by someone what he felt, and his only comment was that he wasn't there to judge, he was there to run a dog. I would also point out that Mr Spalding had a flight back home for Sunday night that he had to reschedule due to the trial running over into Monday; highly unusual for a Derby, wouldn't you agree?; and I never heard him gripe once. Classless?, I think not.

I close by asking you what exactly is your gripe? The judges set up challenging fair tests, the grounds were spectacular, you had an adorable 9 year old girl running an FC-AFC in a Derby, The judges, volunteers etc stayed over for a third day of a Derby, there was the largest, most knowledgeable, enthusiastic gallery I've ever seen at a Derby, and the weather, while not perfect was a lot nicer than it would have been in Northern Iowa.

Additionally, Punch the dog you were cheering for is wonderfully talented, GORGEOUS dog with a bright future ahead of him. He also left with the title of High Point Derby Dog for 2008
Isn't that what you wanted?
What more could you ask for?
WHAT IS YOUR GRIPE???

Glass house regards


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## JKL

mjh345 said:


> If this post is any indication of your ability to judge class, then I would be honored to be considered classless by you.
> 
> I had never met Mr Spalding before. However after this weekend, I would be happy to meet, train with, trial against him or whatever. I found him to be a fierce competitor and a gentleman. He also happens to own a very nice dog
> 
> What actions did you find classless by Mr. Spalding? You refer to the "crap" that he put on the net. I read that thread, and from my recollection, all he did was make some posts trying to encourage some head to head competition in the last 2 Derbies of the year, between the top contenders. You would call that Classless; I would call that Gamesmanship.
> 
> In a similar vein, Mr Hillman entered multiple dogs in all 5 trials held on the weekend of December 5th. This prevented anyone from knowing which trial he would actually be attending. Would you call this Classless? I wouldn't, I'd call it Gamesmanship. If he attempted to get any refunds from any of the other 4 trials that he didn't attend, then I would have a different word to describe it.
> 
> You also referred to Punch's "hunt" in the second series. The general consensus amongst the fellow competitors and gallery members that I spoke with was that Punch would not be called back; especially in light of the callbacks in the first where a number of dogs were dropped that had much shorter more disciplined hunts than what Punch had in the second. The thinking was that the judges were aware of the lack of time available and were making their cuts accordingly. After the callbacks were announced, Mr Spalding, was asked by someone what he felt, and his only comment was that he wasn't there to judge, he was there to run a dog. I would also point out that Mr Spalding had a flight back home for Sunday night that he had to reschedule due to the trial running over into Monday; highly unusual for a Derby, wouldn't you agree?; and I never heard him gripe once. Classless?, I think not.
> 
> I close by asking you what exactly is your gripe? The judges set up challenging fair tests, the grounds were spectacular, you had an adorable 9 year old girl running an FC-AFC in a Derby, The judges, volunteers etc stayed over for a third day of a Derby, there was the largest, most knowledgeable, enthusiastic gallery I've ever seen at a Derby, and the weather, while not perfect was a lot nicer than it would have been in Northern Iowa.
> 
> Additionally, Punch the dog you were cheering for is wonderfully talented, GORGEOUS dog with a bright future ahead of him. He also left with the title of High Point Derby Dog for 2008
> Isn't that what you wanted?
> What more could you ask for?
> WHAT IS YOUR GRIPE???
> 
> Glass house regards[/QUO
> 
> 
> Ditto.


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## Marvin S

Arturo said:


> Whachutalkinboutwillis? The man can do it as a professional. The man can do it as an amateur. The man can even do it as a professional and an amateur both at the same time. The man is good! Cut him some slack!


I don't have a clue who you are but that is Very Funny.


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## Doug Main

Roger Perry said:


> I cannot find in the rules the number of points a dog gets for winning a derby, 2nd in derby, 3rd in derby and 4th in derby. I can only find the champion points 1st 5, 2nd 3, 3rd 1 and 4th 1/2 points


There is no titles awarded for any of the minor stakes. AKC is only concerned about points toward a title (championship points). 

The info on how derby points are counted are found here: 
http://www.working-retriever.com/retriever-trials/hiderby2.html


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## ramblinmaxx

I visited with Scott for quite a while on Sunday and found him to be a very nice guy with a lot of class.

Marty


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## junbe

Roger

AKC does not award points in the Derby or Qualifying Stakes. In fact they do not offer points for the two National stakes. AKC points are used to determine the titles FC and AFC. Points are not given for the National stake because if the winner is not the appropriate champion, it will be given the appropriate championship (FC or AFC). The 
longest standing high point derby award is currently administered by Retriever News. They use a 5, 3, 2, 1 point system. It is interesting to note that since the first Derby Trophy was awarded they have changed the time frame, the type of trial, and the point system. The current system has been in place since 1965. 

Jack


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## K G

Arturo said:


> Whachutalkinboutwillis? The man can do it as a professional. The man can do it as an amateur. The man can even do it as a professional and an amateur both at the same time. The man is good! Cut him some slack!



You know _'zackly_ whatImtalkinbout, willis! ;-) I'm fully prepared to give credit where credit is due, up to and including AKC suspension appeal policies that were revised a few years ago. It was the one positive that came out of a negative situation.

Silver lining regards,

kg


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## golden boy 2

Here is a pic from the 3rd series


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## Roger Perry

junbe said:


> Roger
> 
> AKC does not award points in the Derby or Qualifying Stakes. In fact they do not offer points for the two National stakes. AKC points are used to determine the titles FC and AFC. Points are not given for the National stake because if the winner is not the appropriate champion, it will be given the appropriate championship (FC or AFC). The
> longest standing high point derby award is currently administered by Retriever News. They use a 5, 3, 2, 1 point system. It is interesting to note that since the first Derby Trophy was awarded they have changed the time frame, the type of trial, and the point system. The current system has been in place since 1965.
> 
> Jack


Thank to both you and Doug. I have a Derby dog running derby's and did not even know how the point system worked. Mac does have a 3rd and a 4th so now I know he has 3 points, I thought he only had 1 1/2.


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## Moosetogooseranch

Congratulations to Punch and Pink for their National Derby Champion Titles. I have some very good pictures to post of this special event. Now that I have WI-FI in the room I can get them posted. Micki


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## Jim Pickering

Moosetogooseranch said:


> Congratulations to Punch and Pink for their National Derby Champion Titles. I have some very good pictures to post of this special event. Now that I have WI-FI in the room I can get them posted. Micki


Already down training at the spillway are you?  Wish we were there as well; cold in GA this week.  Don’t forget to practice the levee mark!!

See you Friday and in the mean time waiting to see the photos.


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## Moosetogooseranch

Jim Pickering said:


> Already down training at the spillway are you?  Wish we were there as well; cold in GA this week.  Don’t forget to practice the levee mark!!
> 
> See you Friday and in the mean time waiting to see the photos.


Speaking of the Spillway, Here is Jim and Willie waiting to run the fourth series at the Norco Derby last month.


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## Moosetogooseranch

Red River Derby Pictures. I have to add one picture at a time (over 20 pictures). It's going to take me a long time. Check back tomorrow.  
First Series Test: Shot Flyier on right thrown L to R - Long bird on left thrown R to L. 









Gallery




















Our Marshall - Laniee


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## Moosetogooseranch

Pictures of Red River and more to come.
Scott Spalding and Walla Walla Sweet. "Pink" Finishes 2008 Derby Career with 66 points. Pink ran a Very Clean Trial and Placed 4th Place.








Chad Baker and his yellow pup.









Shayne








Marc Heley 








Gary Kavan - Bur Oak's Here's Winston 








Tim Milligan


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## Moosetogooseranch

Shaelee Fosher with FC AFC Texanna Yellow Gold MH - Owner Ken Robbins
Shaelee finished the Red River Derby which gave her 3 passes and her Junior Handling Title!  Congratulations Shaelee!!


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