# Famous Labs with White Spots on Their Chests?



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

RTF'ers,

I've recently whelped a litter of puppies and intend to keep a female as a hunting companion and potential future brood bitch. Of the four females in the litter three of them have a small white spot on their chest. Ideally, I'd rather not keep a pontential breeding bitch with a white spot, but there are a lot more important things to consider when evaluating the pups.

So, I thought it might help me put things in perspective if you folks could tell me about famous Labs who had white spots on their chests. Do you have any candidates for the list?

Swack


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Didnt Timex have a spot on his chest?
(NFC Vinwoods Take a Lick'in) hope i didnt get that wrong.

Probably would depend on the size of the spot. Keeping in mind the puppy grows and the spot doesnt usually.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Billie said:


> Didnt Timex have a spot on his chest?
> (NFC Vinwoods Take a Lick'in) hope i didnt get that wrong.
> .


Yes you got it wrong, no white spot but only one descended testicle which is the reason he wasn't bred.


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## txrancher (Aug 19, 2004)

Hard to say which was worst when one wasn't needed and the other was needed badly?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Swack said:


> So, I thought it might help me put things in perspective if you folks could tell me about famous Labs who had white spots on their chests. Do you have any candidates for the list?
> Swack


I think you may be fishing in a pond devoid of fish. I can recall two with large white blazes on their chest who were moderately successful field trial dogs but far from famous.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Just search through all dogs named star or domino.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> Just search through all dogs named star or domino.


Or Blaze....


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

Depending on the size, most small spots aren't visible in adult dogs. If the dog had correct type, bone, coat, movement, angles, temperament, retrieving ability, passes all their clearances, etc (not in that particular order mind you), a bit of white on the chest (which is allowable in the standard!) would be the LAST thing I'd worry about.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

> Of the four females in the litter three of them have a small white spot on their chest. Ideally, I'd rather not keep a pontential breeding bitch with a white spot


 

75 % with a blaze??? I think you already have issues with your "Breeding Stock"

All the threads lately on what a Lab should look like "Bench vs Field" none suggested that a Lab should be spotted.

Jeff, being the historian and purest that you are I'm surprised you'd even ask that question.....Let alone consider reproducing that trait.

Flame on......I'll crawl back under my rock now


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## Gwen Jones (Jun 19, 2004)

Got a pup for my kids for Christmas that had a large white blaze. He is now 7 months old and it is almost totally gone. VERY well bred pup with a black father and yellow mother.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Rnd said:


> 75 % with a blaze??? I think you already have issues with your "Breeding Stock"
> 
> All the threads lately on what a Lab should look like "Bench vs Field" none suggested that a Lab should be spotted.
> 
> ...


Rnd,

I thought the question might make for interesting conversation and an opportunity to learn if there have been Labs who became famous inspite of the "disability" of having a few white hairs on their chest. Since you are figuring percentages, there were three pups in a litter of seven with white on them. That equates to 42.857% of the litter. I was just "lucky" that all of the white spots happened to be on the girls.

You are welcome to your opinion and you may believe there are issues with my breeding stock if you wish. I think I'd rather have a few white hairs on my puppies chests than many other issues that could occur. 

However, you have me reconsidering my position. Perhaps I should have bucketed those defective puppies and kept quiet so you folks wouldn't find out that my bitch has thrown puppies with white spots! I guess I didn't realize how serious an issue it was!

Swack


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Swack said:


> However, you have me reconsidering my position. Perhaps I should have bucketed those defective puppies and kept quiet so you folks wouldn't find out that my bitch has thrown puppies with white spots! I guess I didn't realize how serious an issue it was!


That method certainly kept too many Chocolates from becoming notable.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Here's a previous thread, I like Miss Cleo's reply (#15) http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...ll-blooded-or-not/page2&highlight=white+chest


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Ya know swack - if you can manage a 2xNFC on one of these little dotted bitches the price of a blazed pup ought to be pretty handsome in your line moving forward.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

I can remember asking Mrs Charley Bjork if FC-AFC-CFC Carnmoney Billy Jo was registered. Her very polite reply to me was "Yes, he is, & he's a pretty good dog." His blaze was as big as a very large dinner plate on a larger than life chest. 

I think that if you looked at a lot of yellows carefully, you would see white on them more often than not.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Swack,
Not famous, but I own a beautiful (to me) dark yellow bitch that, at 7 weeks, had a quarter sized white spot on the top of her head that disappeared by the age of 5 months. Also own a black bitch(3 FC siblings) that had a white ring around the base of her tail and a black male with a small white spot on his chest. The spots on all 3 went away.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Not famous but a guy in our duck club owns a very nice black male that is GRHRCH with MN passes. A beautiful, very large dog that is well proportioned. Absolute poetry in motion at a test. I am not familiar with his health clearances or his pedigree but from a pure performance standpoint he is a machine. No breedings or planned breedings I am aware of. My buddy actually wants to breed for the blaze.


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

a vet seriously told me, in the late 1970's that bring a young pup in and I will cut out the white spot and no one will ever not - true story


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

My blf has a little white spot on her chest. It got smaller as she grew. My ylm has a black spot on the back of his thigh, and one or two of his littermates had them, too, in different places. He has 10 pups, and none of them have a spot.


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

pupaloo said:


> My blf has a little white spot on her chest. It got smaller as she grew. My ylm has a black spot on the back of his thigh, and one or two of his littermates had them, too, in different places. He has 10 pups, and none of them have a spot.


this is good to know...i was curious if those dogs with spots passed it along to their pups - those that have spots that have bred their dogs (in additon to this one) please comment on IF/HOW MANY of the pups had white spots. Mine has a small white spot, but she sure doesn't know it....and not slowing here down. Neither of her GRHRCH parents or her NAFC grandparents had the white spot, so certainly curious how this spot comes about.

thanks


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Overland Express
Also his sister Oakhill Exponent


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

huntinman said:


> Or Blaze....


oh come on Bill, everyone knows Blaze is a Chessie ;-)


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> oh come on Bill, everyone knows Blaze is a Chessie ;-)


HaHa! Maybe...

Pretty is as pretty does... A white spot by any other name is still nothing if the dog is good.


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## Moose Mtn (May 23, 2013)

HNTFSH said:


> Just search through all dogs named star or domino.


Not Mine! Our "Star" does not have any white on her... Black as can be!


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## Merlin (Sep 1, 2005)

EdA said:


> Yes you got it wrong, no white spot but only one descended testicle which is the reason he wasn't bred.


Not bred much, but he does have offspring.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

My observations of various breeding programs, most have UK field pedigrees. No big deal....larger issues to worry about.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Is an NFC famous enough? NFC Abes Ebony and Ivory ? I heard he did- 
Im not trying to post false info- I believe this was true- and fwiw- I bred to a son of his, who has produced white marks (not just my litter) as well. 
The pups in my litter ,two had white on their chests and some had bolo spots on the feet. Couldnt be happier with my girl- no white chest but has some bolo on both front feet backs


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

FC-AFC River Oaks Way-Da-Go Rocky threw blazes and white spots on chests. I owned a dog sired by Rocky, and also bred to Rocky and a couple of pups had blazes. FC-AFC Overland Express is another that I recall..
http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...bs-with-white-spots-Full-blooded-or-not/page3


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

frontier said:


> FC-AFC Overland Express is another that I recall..


Jake was also NFTCH/AFTCH; won the Canadian National Open in '86.

Amy Dahl


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

To the OP, Why don't you just raise those spotted pups and see how they come along? If they are outstanding in all other respects, successful in whatever venue you run, healthy and sound, make the decision then! You don't just choose Mama dogs by pedigree alone right? They have to bring lots of other stuff to the table. I think we know that white spots don't stop them from excelling.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks to all who have responded. Rnd was the most irritating of the replies, but he at least has paid enough attention to label me as a "purist". That may be an accurate assessment. As a purist, all I want is perfection! However, I know those little white spots are _way_ down the list of priorities. They won't be much of a factor in my selection. Maybe just a tie-breaker if there are two pups that are equal in other regards.

Carol, I can only do justice to one puppy at a time. I think I'll be able to make an educated guess at 7-8 weeks as to which of the females I favor. The title "Brood Bitch" won't be bestowed upon the little tyke at that time. She will have to earn it over time as she grows and learns, passes (or fails) health clearances and hunt tests, and is compared to other young bitches that are auditioning for the part. While I'd rather not have a white spot on a brood bitch, I've had more than one excellent Lab who possessed one. It's not a deal breaker!

Swack


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

FC Cookies Spot em Now ?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

afdahl said:


> Jake was also NFTCH/AFTCH; won the Canadian National Open in '86.
> 
> Amy Dahl


He was very close when Westwind's Supernova Chief won the National in St. Louis in 1982


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## cchristopher (Jun 21, 2005)

Pretty sure Abe sired many with the bolo spots. I would say he was a nice sire .


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I think it should be obvious that there's a genetic component to it. Or else it would not be showing up. Because it goes away on the outside does not mean it goes away on the inside. Is it bad? Depends on how much looks means to you. I would think a "purist" should not want any spots. Of course, we all have ways of changing our opinions when it becomes personal. See ya in the field. Harry


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

cchristopher said:


> Pretty sure Abe sired many with the bolo spots. I would say he was a nice sire .


Bolo spots are on the feet, not the chest


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I've been reading with great interest, and losing hope a little.

For some reason, I really want a black dog with a white diamond on his chest; I always have. My yellow has one--and definitely, not just a shading. When I discovered it, I considered it a very good sign. I would put the white diamond (and it would have to be the perfect shape and size!) last on my list of priorities, for sure, but if all other things were equal or impossible to determine, I'd take the one with the white spot. 

Don't ask me why. If there's a reason, it's because of some odd firing in the synapses from a memory of a picture I once saw.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

NAFC-FC Dee's Dandy Dude.

Evan


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks to all who have responded. Rnd was the most irritating of the replies, but he at least has paid enough attention to label me as a "purist". That may be an accurate assessment. As a purist, all I want is perfection! However, I know those little white spots are _way down the list of priorities

Jeff, This is not necessarily aimed at you. But following this thread just because some great dogs had a blaze/star/spot on there chest why would we/you want to start a breeding program with that trait? I think those great dogs happened in spite of their spot not because of it..

When looking for field trial prospects coat and color come in way behind other traits.....IMO As hard as it is to get a pup in trial home why start behind the 8 ball??? 

My original post was not meant to be "irritating" but "provocative " 

Randy

_


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Rnd said:


> Thanks to all who have responded. Rnd was the most irritating of the replies, but he at least has paid enough attention to label me as a "purist". That may be an accurate assessment. As a purist, all I want is perfection! However, I know those little white spots are _way down the list of priorities
> 
> Jeff, This is not necessarily aimed at you. But following this thread just because some great dogs had a blaze/star/spot on there chest why would we/you want to start a breeding program with that trait? I think those great dogs happened in spite of their spot not because of it..
> 
> ...


RND, I seem to recall some stuff about "Bolo Rings" rather than "Bolo Spots". This was when I was a dumb kid trying to get a dog to run a basic NAHRA water blind. I may be way off.

I sent you a PM.

(Now I'm a dumb guy about to turn 50)

Chris


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> RND, I seem to recall some stuff about "Bolo Rings" rather than "Bolo Spots". This was when I was a dumb kid trying to get a dog to run a basic NAHRA water blind. I may be way off.
> 
> I sent you a PM.
> 
> ...


No sir you are not, I haven't read the Pm yet. That "white ring" on the chocolate dogs tail as puppies was an issue with new buyers. And hard to figure out at first. It showed up at around 7 weeks old and went away around 4 months. Many concerned new puppy owners. At one point we thought it came from Snake Eyes. (My chocolates were Snake dogs)

We are not talking about "Bolo" anything in this thread we are talking about spots/stars/blazes/ . Although acceptable NOT desirable... That was my original point...

Mr. Swackhamer knows where I was going with that response and HPL summed it up perfectly...



> I think it should be obvious that there's a genetic component to it. Or else it would not be showing up. Because it goes away on the outside does not mean it goes away on the inside. Is it bad? Depends on how much looks means to you. I would think a "purist" should not want any spots. Of course, we all have ways of changing our opinions when it becomes personal. See ya in the field. Harr


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

My PM went to the wrong username the first time. I resent it.

I know Swack's deal was totally different. I was just thinking that MJH's post about "bolo" being spots, was something I remembered as rings on tails. Regardless, I think it is cool that so many labs are a solid color!  So many other breeds are spotted, brindle, etc.

Chris


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

Take a look at pictures of Labradors from 1800's. They have white on them.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Swack said:


> RTF'ers,
> 
> I've recently whelped a litter of puppies and intend to keep a female as a hunting companion and potential future brood bitch. Of the four females in the litter three of them have a small white spot on their chest. *Ideally, I'd rather not keep a pontential breeding bitch with a white spot, but there are a lot more important things to consider when evaluating the pups.
> 
> ...


Rnd,

Above is my original post with which I started this thread. Note the emboldened sentences where is said _"Ideally, I'd rather not keep a breeding bitch with a white spot . . . " 

_The second emboldened sentence was asking for the names of famous Labs with white spots to help reassure me that there were some Labs who were great dogs *in spite of having white spots on their chests*, not because of them!

Maybe you should read the posts more carefully and not try so hard to be provocative!

You may be interested to know that selling pups to field trialers is not my objective. One of my goals is to try to preserve the best traits of what I call "The Original Lab". As pheona mentioned the progenators of the Lab had white spots, so it shouldn't be that big an issue for a purist with that goal.

Swack


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

You may be interested to know that selling pups to field trialers is not my objective. One of my goals is to try to preserve the best traits of what I call "The Original Lab". As pheona mentioned the progenators of the Lab had white spots, so it shouldn't be that big an issue for a purist with that goal.


If one of your goals is to produce spotted labs have at it....I don't think a blaze is a trait I would want to Preserve..

Randy


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Swack said:


> You may be interested to know that selling pups to field trialers is not my objective. One of my goals is to try to preserve the best traits of what I call "The Original Lab". As pheona mentioned the progenators of the Lab had white spots, so it shouldn't be that big an issue for a purist with that goal.
> 
> Swack


Depending on your target audience, white spots may be a marketing issue. I've run into a lot of members of the general public who believe any white at all means it is not a purebred Lab. They have a point; a lot of Lab mixes look very like Labs, but have white marks on chest and feet.

Amy Dahl


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

The bitched that just have the litter throw white spots in her previous litters? Does that trait run in their lines?


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

famous dogs. FC AFC Pinhurst All that Jazz has white blaze on her front. one of few chocolate females to title. She is litter mate to my chocolate male's mom. My dog has what Chris calls bolo on tail. You do not notice it anymore unless he is wet.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Rnd,

You are either trying to get a rise out of me (again) or just dense. Never have I said I wanted to breed or perpetuate Labs with white spoted chests. Are you saying that a Lab with a white spot is unworthy to be bred?


Amy,

I understand that there are many folks who would rather not have a Lab with a white spot on their chest. That is why I said "_Ideally, I'd rather not keep a potential breeding bitch with a white spot . . ." _I hope you would agree with the rest of that sentence where I stated, " . . . _but there are a lot more important things to consider when evaluating the pups." _Frankly, the "target audience" for my breeding is ME! Those who like what I do should like my pups. I haven't had any complaints. By the way, is that a white spot on the chest of the Golden in your avatar?

kcrumpy9,

The dam had one pup that had a white spot on her chest in her last (first) litter of seven. The bitch and her mother are both without a spot, but her grandmother had one, as did her great-grandfather. Those old dogs went back to some "questionable" bloodlines; mostly linebred on Super Chief and River Oaks Corky. An outcross to those evil British Labs helped to decrease the white markings, but once I went back to similar American field lines I got a bit of white again.

I'm kind of surprised that some think this is such a big deal, but considering some of the things I've seen on RTF I guess I shouldn't be surprised!

Swack


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i have a fairly bred bitch that is 28 months. she has five white hairs on top left of her head.

one of my training buds says i put the gray there by nagging the bitch too much!


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

> These little RTF debates are fun to some extent but, reminds me of "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but, the pig likes it"


Frankly, I consider you to be the pig Rnd. 

Whatever.....


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

KNorman said:


> Frankly, I consider you to be the pig Rnd.
> 
> Whatever.....



Thank you,


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

Swack,

sorry if I made it seem as if I was coming at you negatively. I'm someone who doesn't care about that little bit of white. If she's good and and has the clearances breed her. If she passes on the white then maybe that is where your dilemma should be or see if you could get a deal on just for men!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Question to those who have dogs with white spots. Have you color tested your dog? Inter-net research of the Stud/High level dogs mentioned on this thread shows most of them to be, Blacks that are tri-factored, or at least known to carry one of the other colors. I know my litter threw pups with Bolo spots and they carry chocolate, haven't tested for the yellow ~1/2 of them should carry that as well. Bolo spots are known to be tied to chocolate. So I wonder if the white flare which still pops up every once in awhile is tied to the other color genes as well.


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## Rinkor16 (Jun 11, 2013)

My pup has a decent sized white spot on her chest. Doesn't seem to slow her down at all.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

My pup has white patches on her heels. I'm kinda worrying about if I'll be able to keep them looking clean.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Swack said:


> Amy,
> 
> I understand that there are many folks who would rather not have a Lab with a white spot on their chest. That is why I said "_Ideally, I'd rather not keep a potential breeding bitch with a white spot . . ." _I hope you would agree with the rest of that sentence where I stated, " . . . _but there are a lot more important things to consider when evaluating the pups." _Frankly, the "target audience" for my breeding is ME! Those who like what I do should like my pups. I haven't had any complaints. By the way, is that a white spot on the chest of the Golden in your avatar?


Yes, Laddie has a white blaze, and yes, that is a portrait so I could have had it painted out if I cared. But why ask about Laddie? Your inquiry was about Labs. Moreover, I did not see nor ask about Laddie's color and markings before I got him, nor was my purpose, as yours is, breeding. Laddie is on limited registration.

Why not ask me about the Labs whose names I posted, both whelped here at Oak Hill? One won a National; the other won six Opens in limited trialing. People who ran against her remember her, and she produced two field champions. They had a classic pedigree: Air Express, Ray's Rascal, Guy's Bitterroot Lucky. Jake's blaze was big and visible; Pudge's narrowed to a thin line you wouldn't notice unless you were looking for it.

Amy Dahl


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

afdahl said:


> Yes, Laddie has a white blaze, and yes, that is a portrait so I could have had it painted out if I cared. But why ask about Laddie? Your inquiry was about Labs. Moreover, I did not see nor ask about Laddie's color and markings before I got him, nor was my purpose, as yours is, breeding. Laddie is on limited registration.
> 
> Why not ask me about the Labs whose names I posted, both whelped here at Oak Hill? One won a National; the other won six Opens in limited trialing. People who ran against her remember her, and she produced two field champions. They had a classic pedigree: Air Express, Ray's Rascal, Guy's Bitterroot Lucky. Jake's blaze was big and visible; Pudge's narrowed to a thin line you wouldn't notice unless you were looking for it.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Amy,

I brought up the dog pictured in your avatar to illustrate that a good dog can have a bit of white on their chest. I assumed you liked the dog or you wouldn't have used his picture for your avatar. No disrespect intended.

The Labs you mention from Jake and Pudge's pedigree occur back in generations 6 - 10 of the parents of this litter. I guess it should be no surpirse that white spots are found on their descendants.

According to the book _Genetics of the Dog_ by Malcomb Willis the genetics of white spots is controlled by the "S Series". The *S* allele is possessed by dogs that are "Self Colored" or have a totally pigmented surface. The Labrador Retriever is homozygous dominate (*SS*) at the S locus. The white spots come as the result of what Willis refers to as _"various minor genes called modifiers. Their number and effect is uncertain and likely to remain so but they can be basically described as plus or minus modifiers. Plus modifiers will lead to more colour and minus modifiers will lead to more white." _It may be difficult to eliminate white markings caused by these minus modifiers without focusing on their elimination at the expense of ignoring other traits.

Swack


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Question to those who have dogs with white spots. Have you color tested your dog? Inter-net research of the Stud/High level dogs mentioned on this thread shows most of them to be, Blacks that are tri-factored, or at least known to carry one of the other colors. I know my litter threw pups with Bolo spots and they carry chocolate, haven't tested for the yellow ~1/2 of them should carry that as well. Bolo spots are known to be tied to chocolate. So I wonder if the white flare which still pops up every once in awhile is tied to the other color genes as well.


Hunt'EmUp,

The two old dogs I've owned that had white chest spots did carry yellow, but not chocolate. I think color may be a factor, but perhaps only because yellows don't show white so well and may help to perpetuate it, instead of their being a genetic link between "color" and white markings.

I haven't talked of "Bolo spots" on the heels of dogs, but I've had some of these and they don't bother me. I think it was Mary Roslin Williams who liked to see them and considered them a sign of good type and proper coat.

Swack


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

So are spots on the heels considered good or bad?

And perhaps more importantly, should I wash this dog in hot or cold water


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## txrancher (Aug 19, 2004)

And perhaps more importantly, should I wash this dog in hot or cold water?


Perhaps warm water until we can get this thread sorted out?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

txrancher said:


> And perhaps more importantly, should I wash this dog in hot or cold water?
> 
> 
> Perhaps warm water until we can get this thread sorted out?


Ive heard that hot water makes the colors bleed. So, if ya don't want the white to spread . . . Use cold.

But above all don't leave 'em in the dryer too long! Probably best to hang 'em on the line to keep the right shape and avoid shrinkage.


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