# Vocal at Line Correction, My Version



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Vocal Dog at the Line Correction, road kill style
People who contributed;
Evan Graham, Randy Bohn, Chris Atkinson, Lanse Brown, Susan Bledsoe, Bon Malari, Ted Shih, Rich Pyka and finally Janie Hoctel and Dwayne Durant!
These people gave me advice and more importantly encouragement during this process, thanks.
Janie and Dwayne took us the final yard.
A couple people suggested that I would never fix it and I should get rid of Elvis, he will never make it.
I won't say he has "made it" yet in terms of titles, but we are on our way now.

Those of us that have had to deal with this know the frustration and heartbreak that goes with this issue.
It is a little more complex to me than some think.
I am of the belief that though we contribute to the problem, more often than not there are genetics involved.
Every noisy dog in history is in Elvis’ pedigree, well almost.
Add to that "HANDLER ERROR" and the issue worsens before we even know it!
I think this trait is the result of ANXIETY!

The fix is not easy and requires a strong will and dedication.

Steps;

#1—This is very hard…..STOP RUNNING TESTS!(last season Elvis passed a SH and I shut him down to fix this problem)
#2—This is hard…..STOP RUNNING MULTIPLE MARKS!!(singles—singles—singles)
#3—Develop a standard!!—SIT means SIT!! This is key!
BUTT ON GROUND!!!
#4—Do NOT use the collar for this( I beleive the e-collar creates more anxiety and noise), use a healing stick, you control the correction level.
(if you nick a dog with the collar at a high enough level, what does the dog do?
He makes a noise.
Using a stimulus that you already know creates that kind of tendency (noise) seems a foolish way to stop noise, doesn't it?
If the dog gets out in front going to the line, whack his azz and make him sit….and I mean WHACK HIS AZZ!!
Don’t nag------COMMAND!!
#5—When you get to the line and get ready to run a mark (did I mention a single?) if he makes noise, pick the bird up while correcting for quiet.
Don’t put the dog in the truck, he ain’t learning in the truck.
Pull him off the line at first and come back up.
Eventually you can just pick the bird up and rerun.
Use the healing stick for sit so the dog is worrying about sitting and the correction rather than noise.
Run a single mark with total quiet.
No duck call, no shots at the line and no noise at the launch station.
Total quiet.
When the dog runs a silent mark PRAISE the hell out of him, I mean treat that dog like you just won the Master National or the biggest trial ever!
Then run another one quietly (a single), if he is quiet PRAISE the hell out of him!!
(we actually had darn near everyone in the club come over and make a big fuss about his being quiet).
Keep doing this until you get a quiet run (did I mention PRAISE the hell out of him?).
Now you have a standard, or a baseline for the dog to reference.
This is key.
Don't try again, acheive success and put him away on a positive note.
Remember---PATIENCE!!!
Anything other than a quiet mark gets a correction.
This may take time, you didn’t get here over night!
I mean a long time.

If he makes noise on the (SINGLE) mark, pick it up and run again!
Start to add a shot, then a call at the station, then gently call at the line.
If he is quiet, PRAISE the hell out of him.
If he is not, pick the bird up and take a stimulus away and run again, quietly.
When he runs quietly, PRAISE the hell out of him.
All the time reinforcing the standard that we have set----and he knows the command-Quiet and he becomes steady.

#6—Do other drills than marks around people, generally these dogs are hi-rollers and want to learn and play and run.
Then run complicated drills and start to challenge the dog.
Marks, for a great marker, I believe get boring.
Make him think!

Evan Graham often states that dogs are “situational learners.”
They develop expectations.
Change them, change up routines, challenge the dogs intellect, they will surprise you!!
At this point, all they know is they are going to get the ultimate prize, a retrieve, and no matter how they behave we will give it to them!
BUT.......when you go back to set ups, do EVERYTHING exactly the same every time!
(smart azzez!!!)

#7—If you stick to this, for months, you will win!
All of a sudden you will see an improvement in line manners, if you hold to the standard.

No bird with noise (the ultimate correction), bird and massive PRAISE when compliance to the standard is achieved.

One more thing, if you want your dog to be quiet, stop YELLING at him.
Trust me, he can hear you, I actually whisper now, so he has to concentrate on listening, not making noise.
When I whisper "Elvis," there he was.....GONE!!!

#8—The hardest part……..in our case, after several months of nothing but steadiness and noise corrections he was exemplary.
Many people were amazed and commented on his improvement.
Ran tests where he was silent on each series.
Judges that knew him were amazed.
#9--Often over looked-- SLOW DOWN!!

All of a sudden one day at training he erupted again because he had to wait.
It hit the fan and we had a 4 round main event.
He took round 1, had me early in round 2....then I got him!!
(this is tongue in cheek)
It needed to be established who the Alpha was in the pack.
(this is not tongue in cheek)
It was (and MUST be) established, and Elvis found out he ain’t the Alpha.

Since then……he is quiet at the line.
He barked one bark one time at a shot flyer in training.
He has gone from 100% out of control at the line (actually failed an AKC JH because of noise) to 95% silent and very much under control.

Needed;
Patience
A Standard
Quiet commands
Iron Will
Consistency
Understanding training partners
Healing stick
PRAISE


Not needed;
E-Collar (creates even more anxiety)
Severe punishment
Erratic administration of standard
Yelling


This is not a 100% correction, it is in his genes.
WE will always have to watch for this and continue to set and hold the standard.

This is not easy, it is ongoing and in my opinion, it is not entirely your fault.
I am not sure if this will work for every dog, it worked for mine.
It took about 8 months.

I sincerely wish you all the best in this endeavor!!
As does everyone else who ever had to deal with this.

I want to add something……do not even think about where anyone else’s dog is in training!
It is irrelevant to you, you have to focus on you and your dog and what your teams goal is, nothing else matters!!!
This is not a quick fix, you must endeavor to persevere!!
You must NOT give up!!!
You must stay the course!!!
This must be adhered to every time you train.

I have added a visit on occasion to doggy day care.
It has helped Elvis anyway, be more settled around other dogs.

Good Luck!!

Team Elvis

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on dog training, I have NO credentials or "pelts" of consequence.
I am just a guy that was to stupid to give up on my dog and I understand that this process is lengthy and difficult and maybe outside the box, if you stick to it YOU can win!!

I have reposted/bumped this post because someone at a HT this passed weekend asked me too.

I have added a couple more things as well.
BTW--we have been proofing this issue for a few weeks.
We now approach the line proudly and fearlessly.
I know we have to watch for this issue everyday, but we are on the same page now.
WE are running at the HRC finished level and MH tests this summer.
I am confident we are ready!
At least we can get to the line and have a chance!!!!!!


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

road kill said:


> Team Elvis
> 
> Disclaimer: I am not an expert on dog training, I have NO credentials.
> I am just a guy that was to stupid to give up on my dog and I understand that this process is lengthy and difficult and maybe outside the box, if you stick to it YOU can win!!


Team Elvis, 

*You are an expert now!* You've dedicated yourself to fixing your own problem, and you are winning!

The easy thing too do is to get another dog, but you chose invest a lot of HARD WORK instead. Congratulations on a job well done.

You have made a very good post ....as I have one of these models myself. I agree that it is mostly due to ANXIETY ANXIETY ANXIETY.

You cannot take any short cuts to cure this problem.

Other good points are:

The fix is not easy and requires a strong will and dedication.
Stop running tests.
Do not use the collar it will only amp them up.
Do other drills than marks.
Challenge the dog with something other than marks.
Don't YELL.
Patience
Praise
Not needed: anything that creates anxiety

A couple of pointers from my experience:

Learn to teach the dog PATIENCE (which means obedience, obedience, obedience and more obedience, sitting, sitting, sitting and more sitting) You might train all day and throw one or two marks that he is allowed to pick up.

Dogs like this are high energy and need to release it in some way.....NOT MARKING TESTS!!! They can already mark. Take them roading, fishing, swimming behind the boat, biking, skiijoring, roller blading or anywhere you go. BE CREATIVE.

They do not need to sit in a kennel all day and then be expected to SIT and be quiet. Let them have a release FIRST, then some obedience, then another release. It's kind of why we let first graders out for recess BEFORE an important lesson.

Good luck and keep up the good work ELVIS!

Tammy and Rip!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Way to go Stan! Keep up the good work with old Elvis... Nothing better than seeing your hard work pay off.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Congrats to you Stan...you did the work..sounds like you and Elvis had a meeting of the minds...Sure would like to see him enter a Qual next spring


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I did not post this for any accolades to a dog and handler who have not acheived much yet.
But nothing could be acheived until this issue was corrected.

I posted this because of another thread, my response and the subsequent pm's I got.
There is a sense of desperation and hopelessness when dealing with this issue, I know!!

I just shared how I approached it with this dog.
In this case, this approach was successful.
If it helps 1 dog, AWESOME!!!

I have learned a lot through this process.

In the words of Jimmy V "don't give up, don't ever give up!"


*RK*


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

Just curious.....do you and Elvis hunt? or just play the games?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Marty Lee said:


> Just curious.....do you and Elvis hunt? or just play the games?



WE hunt, first and foremost!
We live for Ducks and Pheasants!!!

But we do like to play the games.
HRC has become our preference but we run AKC and we are planning a road trip to MN to run NAHRA which is where we started with him.


*RK*


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you for posting.

One question. When are you praising??? Perhaps a stupid question.;-)

There are some trainers who believe in praise after the dog has returned to you or praise when the dog picks up the bird in the field or while still at the line when the dog is quiet before you release him.

Obviously when the whole club came for the praise session it was after Elvis was back to you...but when do YOU praise??

And congratulations on your success.  You learned so much in the process of getting a quiet dog. You would have lost that if you had washed him out.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Kasomor said:


> Thank you for posting.
> 
> One question. When are you praising??? Perhaps a stupid question.;-)
> 
> ...


I have subsequently learned to praise him all the time, he is my boy!!

But during that process it was after mark & return.
If he was quiet he got praise.

Couple things;
When I release him, you might maybe hear a yelp

This process changed my whole approach, he gets praised all the time, at 6'4 and 225# I get odd looks yellin "GOOD DAWG!!!", but he makes me happy, why shouldn't he be happy!
These animals live to please, let them know when they do!!

*RK*


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Good Boys! Stan & Elvis! 

Stay the course! 

I know you didn't want the praise, but giving it is my decision!


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I wanted to add...the sooner you address this issue, the better 
Even in a puppy..

It's always easier to shape good habits, than to break bad ones.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

One note, if I may. Make sure there's sufficient time between praising and the next mark. 

Praising can increase neural firing, very easily I might add. 

Simply wait until the dog is calm before continuing.


Carry on.....


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

road kill said:


> I have subsequently learned to praise him all the time, he is my boy!!
> 
> But during that process it was after mark & return.
> If he was quiet he got praise.
> ...


I learned to yell "GOOD DAWG" from Evan Graham. Accent and all.


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks for sharing your experience and tips, Team Elvis. It'll be put to good use.


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## PocketLab (Apr 23, 2010)

Stan, very nice job and very nice post.


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## Larry Thompson1 (Apr 19, 2011)

Well done. I have seen different methods of trying to cure this and think you came up with a whopper of an Idea. I will put this in my memory bank for future use if I should need it. Thank You.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Thank you-- I too have a "work in progress" and agree, most of it is anxiety, and much of it IS genetic. It's really obvious when you double up on the darned gene. 

Just recently someone told me to simplify everything in training. Do boring marks. Use bumpers, not birds. The rest of what you say just makes a LOT of sense because my 2 that I ran at JH recently were never noisy in training, just at the tests where everything was so much more amped up (and the waits in the holding blinds were sometimes agonizingly long). Now that we are doing doubles, oh my. Both girls finished their their Open obed titles at barely 2 in very few trials, so their formal obed isn't too shabby, but well, they just have a lot to say at times. Thankfully neither are "alpha types" at all, but I'm still thinking it may be 2 yrs before I enter a SH! :razz:


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Nice post Stan!
I am sure it will make many of us who have vocal dogs think about what we are doing.
And Kudos to your training partners for the patience to allow you to work on Team Elvis's issues!
Well done!


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## Matt Weberpal (Oct 9, 2009)

Awesome post Stan, I too have a vocal one. It's an ongoing process and usually my main goal at training is line manners. Singles are very common when we're on the line.

One thing to add to this. If you have a vocal dog, don't do honoring drills with 4 other dogs, duck calls and everything else. Don't ask me how I figured that one out.


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## fatboy (Jul 7, 2011)

Great job and great detailed explanation of how you worked it out.


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## Mstormc (Feb 18, 2010)

road kill said:


> I have subsequently learned to praise him all the time, he is my boy!!
> 
> But during that process it was after mark & return.
> If he was quiet he got praise.
> ...


Stan, are you correcting for this or letting it slide?

Howler monkey regards.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Mstormc said:


> Stan, are you correcting for this or letting it slide?
> 
> Howler monkey regards.


No, not doing anything, it has not been an issue.
It's not a bark or prolonged, just an excited yelp, and not every time.

Good luck!!

You can do it!


*RK*


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks for this info Stan. Did you at any time before, during or even after experience any dancing or un steadyness at the line that went along with the vocals. I have both and we start this evening working on this, so a very timely post for me to read. Singles it is for now, but she doesn't get nearly as pumped up when we train alone, hard to simulate.


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## Kory Poulsen (Jul 6, 2010)

After working thru a noise issue and continuing to uphold the higher standard, I've found that if you can get to the point where you can take the dog to the line with only giving every command once, have him/her push and pull with you nicely, watch all the birds of a multiple hit the ground then without saying anything turn and walk off line having the dog respond and come with you without any resistance, the noise will be reduced considerably if any at all.

Good work......the feeling of being on top of a noise issue is undescribable!

Kory


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

JJaxon said:


> Thanks for this info Stan. Did you at any time before, during or even after experience any dancing or un steadyness at the line that went along with the vocals. I have both and we start this evening working on this, so a very timely post for me to read. Singles it is for now, but she doesn't get nearly as pumped up when we train alone, hard to simulate.


Yes, we first established that "SIT means SIT!!!"

Then the noise issue can be addressed.

You need the help of a group to fix it.
The smells, the noises, the birds etc.


*RK*


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Kory Poulsen said:


> After working thru a noise issue and continuing to uphold the higher standard, I've found that if you can get to the point where you can take the dog to the line with only giving every command once, have him/her push and pull with you nicely, watch all the birds of a multiple hit the ground then without saying anything turn and walk off line having the dog respond and come with you without any resistance, the noise will be reduced considerably if any at all.
> 
> Good work......the feeling of being on top of a noise issue is undescribable!
> 
> Kory


You are correct.
When we ran an HRC Seasoned and he was silent, I was more excited about that than getting the pass, and I am being serious!!

*RK*


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

road kill said:


> Yes, we first established that "SIT means SIT!!!"
> 
> Then the noise issue can be addressed.
> 
> ...


Thanks again, I had that (sit) at the top of the list to address the dancing. She knows not to move when it's just her and I. When she sits well she starts the whining when level of excitement climbs. Tough to get dogs and people together by late evening when its less hot, doesn't get cooler these days. Weekends are for early morning training now. Thanks for sharing with us.


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## hollypoint (Feb 25, 2011)

Encouraging post. I have come to many of your conclusions in my own noise abatement program: no collar, no yelling, obedience, etc. He is getting better, but we have a ways to go. 
I am printing your post and sticking it in my training journal for continual reference. Thanks.


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

road kill said:


> You need the help of a group to fix it.
> The smells, the noises, the birds etc.
> *RK*


We have a noisy dog, and we are trying what you have written however our problem is we can't recreate situations. We went to a training day on Saturday and it was like we had not done a darn thing.  This is my husbands dog, he works so does not have the opportunity to get with a training group. Usually it is just the two of us. She was improving... then when the ante got upped she fell apart. I plan to have him read this thread, and we have a call in to the trainer. 

I will be taking my dog to some hunt tests to run (started and JH) most likely hubby's dog will be attending. He will have to stay at a distance, but he can work on her still hearing the game being played. She won't be playing. The trainer we went to explained to us that it is probably her breeding as well. Of course when she was loud and vocal as a small puppy we did not know enough to discourage it at the time. She is 21 months so we are trying to work on it. Just super hard in our situation. I have been out of work and tried to get into a couple training groups thinking I could take both dogs, alas they did not want to let in another person. I understand but I want to take advantage to the time I have. 

Thanks for posting RK, it gives people like us hope. Just will take us a lot longer I guess.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> We have a noisy dog, and we are trying what you have written however our problem is we can't recreate situations. We went to a training day on Saturday and it was like we had not done a darn thing.  This is my husbands dog, he works so does not have the opportunity to get with a training group. Usually it is just the two of us. She was improving... then when the ante got upped she fell apart. I plan to have him read this thread, and we have a call in to the trainer.
> 
> I will be taking my dog to some hunt tests to run (started and JH) most likely hubby's dog will be attending. He will have to stay at a distance, but he can work on her still hearing the game being played. She won't be playing. The trainer we went to explained to us that it is probably her breeding as well. Of course when she was loud and vocal as a small puppy we did not know enough to discourage it at the time. She is 21 months so we are trying to work on it. Just super hard in our situation. I have been out of work and tried to get into a couple training groups thinking I could take both dogs, alas they did not want to let in another person. I understand but I want to take advantage to the time I have.
> 
> Thanks for posting RK, it gives people like us hope. Just will take us a lot longer I guess.


Part of the reason I posted this is because I know at times it seems hopeless.
It's not!!

You just have to keep doing the things I listed.

Key Point: Early in this process, if you get a quiet run, praise the pup and put him up so you are ending on a success!!!


If he is quiet and you try again and he is noisy you just lost your gain.

Does that make sense?
Always try to end on a positive!!

Remember that you can't build a positive out of negatives.

Good luck to you!
You CAN do it!!!!!!!


stan b


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## Chris Rosier (Dec 27, 2008)

Great post.

Congrats and good job.


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

Excellent post Stan and excellent progress. Being someone who trains with team Elvis from time time it really has been great to see the transformation of Elvis. Also good to see Stan enjoying and just having fun too.

Way to go!


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

Stan, You said you dont correct for a yelp as he leaves the line and i can understand that. BUT my dog has started a little yelp almost every time he leaves the line even in drill work......Do you or anyone else think this is the start of problems ahead? if so what would you do to correct? he does not bark at the line while marks are going down sometimes he will whine while marking. I also plan to hunt this dog this coming season. The dog is 17mos old. and we are starting swimby also using smartworks. he has had 2 sessions of water force. all the steps up to this have been done. he also has his SHR title.....thanks


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## Lenore (Apr 2, 2010)

Excellent post Stan!! I don't have a noise issue any more there is something else we are working on but you have given me back my hope of "keep at it, things will get better". Thank you!


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## churncreek retrievers (Apr 27, 2011)

Stan, thanks for the info. I will definitely try it. I have a 2 year old alpha male who is quiet and calm will duck and goose hunting but the first sign of a hunt tests the barking returns. I took a year off between Jr and Sr events and thought the problem had been solved. The first mark went off in the Sr test and he went ballistic. I didn't know whether to give up on hunt test and have the world’s most expensive gun dog or try to sell him as a started dog. I have talked with several pros and have paid a trainer for about 7 months of training to correct. I will give it another attempt following this as a guide.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Good job Stan, good to hear some positive reports back with noise issues......Randy


churncreek whoever you are give me a call if you need a hand....484 332 9781...


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Randy Bohn said:


> Good job Stan, good to hear some positive reports back with noise issues......Randy
> 
> 
> churncreek whoever you are give me a call if you need a hand....484 332 9781...


 
Pretty cool that you're helping everybody on this.


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## Kory Poulsen (Jul 6, 2010)

Illinois Bob said:


> Pretty cool that you're helping everybody on this.


You aren't kidding! Last year at this time I was going to sale my noisy dog. Now thanks to Randy and all of his input and A LOT OF HARD WORK we are getting ready to run a qual next month. I can't thank him enough. 

Kory Poulsen


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks Randy, I acknowledged your support and input in the original post.
You were very helpful in this process and I have sent several people to you.
I am sure you remember our conversations.

A couple things;

#1---In every "pack" there is an "alpha" or leader.
Eventually you will have to make sure you and your dog (a small pack) know who the leader is.
I am not referring to the usual definition af an "A" personality.

#2---In regard to what to do in water.
*IF THE DOG IS NOISY-----NO BIRD!!*
That's all.

Some of the other questions I am not qualified to answer.

All I did here was offer one guys solution to a tough problem.
Thanks for the kind words.......



*RK*


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I just thought I would bump this thread.
I saw the other thread asking advice.
If it could help those dealing with this issue....great.
If not......not so great.

It's just one guys thoughts.

I can report that Elvis' line manners have become excellent now.
Occasional squirm, but no breaking or noise!!

You can do it......stay the course!!

stan b & Elvis

For details, see post #1


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's a good thread and should be bumped. Have you run tests again? I think people need to read #1 and do it because some of the posters kept running when their dog was noisy to get that Junior title and now they have established a problem thinking they will fix it later. Nt so easy.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> It's a good thread and should be bumped. Have you run tests again? I think people need to read #1 and do it because some of the posters kept running when their dog was noisy to get that Junior title and now they have established a problem thinking they will fix it later. Nt so easy.


Yes, we began running again.
It's nice to walk up and not be worrying about noise and jumping all over the place.

We did very well this summer when we started running again.
(OK, maybe I messed up once)
In fact some of the judges praised Elvis for his line manners as they watched him since he was a pup and know of theissues we had.

Line manners are very nice now.

I am not a magician, but I am persistant!!

Like I said, it's a nice feeling to be confident walking to the line now.



stan b & Elvis


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

That is an awesome accomplishment! 



> I am of the belief that though we contribute to the problem, more often than not there are genetics involved.
> Every noisy dog in history is in Elvis’ pedigree, well almost.


I think this statement also needs to be highlighted. Many people who don't know much about the dogs themselves, look at paper and titles and then sometimes even linebreed and you really have to watch it with doubling up on noisy dogs.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

road kill said:


> Yes, we began running again.
> It's nice to walk up and not be worrying about noise and jumping all over the place.
> 
> We did very well this summer when we started running again.
> ...


I had the joy of working with Stan & Elvis this year at our seminar in Wisconsin. Stan is what any teacher hopes for; a willing and dedicated student. He's done what many people are reluctant to do; _change_!

As I often say at seminars, "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got." Stan turned a corner with this issue, and with others. He and Elvis have a fine future together.

Evan


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## Lonny Taylor (Jun 22, 2004)

Great thread!! Two hardest bad habits to break are noise and mouth problems. Great share of information. Know someone that is trying to fight this and will send note for them to read this thread.

regards,

LT


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

This thread is another great example of the value of RTF. When willing & experienced people can provide solid & thorough advice, it helps keep new people in the games, and thats good for everyone. One of the biggest challenges (and accomplishments ) of training is knowing what to do when problems happen. Too many good dogs have been given up on because of noise. Hats off to Road kill & his advisors.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Congratulations to Stan & Elvis. It sounds like YOU have also learned a very important lesson in how to approach any difficulties your dog may be having. Good for both of you, We know you are not looking for accolades, but take the pats on the back.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

I am going to bump this thread because I have just started on this journey.

Stan, please check your PM:

My only question is this:

My dog is noisy once I say sit at the line, but as soon as the birds start to go down, he is quiet. I would assume the process is the same, correct and remove from line, but is there anything different that I should look at?

Thanks


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## birddawg (Jan 16, 2012)

I found this thread searching for suggestions on how to solve the whining issue I have with my dog. Thanks for posting it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Zman1001 said:


> I am going to bump this thread because I have just started on this journey.
> 
> Stan, please check your PM:
> 
> ...


What does he learn being removed from the line?

/Paul


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

this is one post I often re-read. Thanks for it Stan and thanks Randy and Evan and all you talented dog folks for helping also.


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

Team Elvis! that was one hell of a post great job.It sounds like you guys are comming together as a team,when that happens there is no better feeling again nice post.
Dave Hare


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## Donna Kerr (May 19, 2003)

Stan,

I brought this back up to the top as I was going to comment on the thread about controlling a dog on the line. I saw the link to this and this sounds exactly what I need. My Scrubdog became very vocal this past summer and I was trying all kinds of things to stop it…I wish I would have seen this earlier as it may have saved me some long months. Thanks a bunch and I’ll give it a try.

Donna


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## clipper (May 11, 2003)

great post.... kind of stuff I look for at this site. Thank you


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

What a good reference, thank you for bumping it


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## Steven Lacroix (Mar 20, 2012)

Should be a sticky


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## linbunting (Jan 18, 2012)

Stan - I have been dealing with same thing. Unfortunately, this is my first dog and I don't think I have the right skill set to deal with this issue. I don't have him for hunt tests, but I am hoping to hunt with him after putting 2 years into this. I train on weekends with a solid group of trainers, and no one has an answer for this. Do you use Elvis for hunting as well and did the issue transfer over with hunting?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

linbunting said:


> Stan - I have been dealing with same thing. Unfortunately, this is my first dog and I don't think I have the right skill set to deal with this issue. I don't have him for hunt tests, but I am hoping to hunt with him after putting 2 years into this. I train on weekends with a solid group of trainers, and no one has an answer for this. Do you use Elvis for hunting as well and did the issue transfer over with hunting?


Elvis takes me hunting 4 or 5 days a week.
Since duck/goose season opened we go after work and every Sat & Sun.

His manners in the "real" blind have improved enormously.


OK....some days in the blind he gets squirmy when the callin' and shootin' start, but not like it was.
You have the skill sets, you can do it if you make up your mind to!!!!

As far as breaking......Janie Hoctel and Duane Durant helped me with that.
He doesn't break any more..........

In fact, he gets annoying glued to my knee when I am bucket hunting!!

Good luck!!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

*Vocal Dog at the Line Correction, road kill style*
People who contributed;
Evan Graham, Randy Bohn, Chris Atkinson, Lanse Brown, Susan Bledsoe, Bon Malari, Ted Shih, Rich Pyka and finally Janie Hoctel and Dwayne Durant!
These people gave me advice and more importantly encouragement during this process, thanks.
Janie and Dwayne took us the final yard.
A couple people suggested that I would never fix it and I should get rid of Elvis, he will never make it.
I won't say he has "made it" yet in terms of titles, but we are on our way now.

Those of us that have had to deal with this know the frustration and heartbreak that goes with this issue.
It is a little more complex to me than some think.
I am of the belief that though we contribute to the problem, more often than not there are *genetics* involved.
Every noisy dog in history is in Elvis’ pedigree, well almost.
Add to that "HANDLER ERROR" and the issue worsens before we even know it!
I think this trait is the result of *ANXIETY!*

The fix is not easy and requires a strong will and dedication.

*Steps;*

#1—This is very hard…..*STOP RUNNING TESTS!*(last season Elvis passed a SH and I shut him down to fix this problem)
#2—This is hard…..*STOP RUNNING MULTIPLE MARKS!!*(singles—singles—singles)
#3—Develop a standard!!—*SIT means SIT!! *This is key!
#4—Do *NOT* use the collar for this( I beleive the e-collar creates more anxiety and noise), use a healing stick, you control the correction level.
(if you nick a dog with the collar at a high enough level, what does the dog do?
He makes a noise.
Using a stimulus that you already know creates that kind of tendency (noise) seems a foolish way to stop noise, doesn't it?
If the dog gets out in front going to the line, whack his azz and make him sit….and I mean *WHACK HIS AZZ!!*
Don’t nag------*COMMAND*!!
#5—When you get to the line and get ready to run a mark (did I mention a single?) if he makes noise, pick the bird up while correcting for quiet. 
Don’t put the dog in the truck, he ain’t learning in the truck.
Pull him off the line at first and come back up.
Eventually you can just pick the bird up and rerun.
Use the healing stick for sit so the dog is worrying about sitting and the correction rather than noise.
Run a single mark with total quiet.
No duck call, no shots at the line and no noise at the launch station.
Total quiet.
When the dog runs a silent mark *PRAISE* the hell out of him, I mean treat that dog like you just won the Master National or the biggest trial ever!
Then run another one quietly (a single), if he is quiet *PRAISE *the hell out of him!!
(we actually had darn near everyone in the club come over and make a big fuss about his being quiet).
Keep doing this until you get a quiet run (did I mention *PRAISE* the hell out of him?).
Now you have a standard, or a baseline for the dog to reference.
This is key.
*Don't try again, acheive success and put him away on a positive note*.
Remember---*PATIENCE!!!*
Anything other than a quiet mark gets a correction.
This may take time, you didn’t get here over night!
I mean a long time.

If he makes noise on the (SINGLE) mark, pick it up and run again!
Start to add a shot, then a call at the station, then gently call at the line.
If he is quiet, *PRAISE* the hell out of him.
If he is not, pick the bird up and take a stimulus away and run again, quietly.
When he runs quietly, *PRAISE* the hell out of him.
All the time reinforcing the standard that we have set----and he knows the command-*Quiet* and he becomes steady.

#6—Do other drills than marks around people, generally these dogs are hi-rollers and want to learn and play and run.
Then run complicated drills and start to challenge the dog.
Marks, for a great marker, I believe get boring.
Make him think!

Evan Graham often states that dogs are *“situational learners.”*
They develop expectations.
Change them, change up routines, challenge the dogs intellect, they will surprise you!!
At this point, all they know is they are going to get the ultimate prize, a retrieve, and no matter how they behave we will give it to them!
BUT.......when you go back to set ups, do EVERYTHING exactly the same every time!
(smart azzez!!!)

#7—If you stick to this, for months, you will win!
All of a sudden you will see an improvement in line manners, if you hold to the standard.

No bird with noise (the ultimate correction), bird and massive *PRAISE* when compliance to the standard is achieved.

One more thing, if you want your dog to be quiet, stop *YELLING* at him.
Trust me, he can hear you, I actually whisper now, so he has to concentrate on listening, not making noise.
When I whisper "Elvis," there he was.....GONE!!!

#8—The hardest part……..in our case, after several months of nothing but steadiness and noise corrections he was exemplary.
Many people were amazed and commented on his improvement.
Ran tests where he was silent on each series.
Judges that knew him were amazed.
#9--Often over looked-- *SLOW DOWN!!*

All of a sudden one day at training he erupted again because he had to wait.
It hit the fan and we had a 4 round main event.
He took round 1, had me early in round 2....then I got him!!
(this is tongue in cheek)
It needed to be established who the Alpha was in the pack.
(this is not tongue in cheek)
It was (and *MUST* be) established, and Elvis found out he ain’t the Alpha.

Since then……he is quiet at the line.
He barked one bark one time at a shot flyer in training.
He has gone from 100% out of control at the line (actually failed an AKC JH because of noise) to 95% silent and very much under control.

Needed;
Patience
A Standard
Quiet commands
Iron Will
Consistency
Understanding training partners
Healing stick
PRAISE


Not needed;
E-Collar (creates even more anxiety)
Severe punishment
Erratic administration of standard
Yelling


This is not a 100% correction, it is in his genes.
WE will always have to watch for this and continue to set and hold the standard.

This is not easy, it is ongoing and in my opinion, it is not entirely your fault.
I am not sure if this will work for every dog, it worked for mine.
It took about 8 months.

I sincerely wish you all the best in this endeavor!!
As does everyone else who ever had to deal with this.

I want to add something……do not even think about where anyone else’s dog is in training!
It is irrelevant to you, you have to focus on you and your dog and what your teams goal is, nothing else matters!!!
This is not a quick fix, you must endeavor to persevere!!
You must NOT give up!!!
You must stay the course!!!
This must be adhered to every time you train.

I have added a visit on occasion to doggy day care.
It has helped Elvis anyway, be more settled around other dogs.

Good Luck!!

Team Elvis

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on dog training, I have NO credentials or "pelts" of consequence.
I am just a guy that was to stupid to give up on my dog and I understand that this process is lengthy and difficult and maybe outside the box, if you stick to it YOU can win!!

*I have reposted/bumped this post because someone at a HT this passed weekend asked me too.*

I have added a couple more things as well.
BTW--we have been proofing this issue for a few weeks.
We now approach the line proudly and fearlessly.
I know we have to watch for this issue everyday, but we are on the same page now.
WE are running at the HRC finished level and MH tests this summer.
I am confident we are ready!
At least we can get to the line and have a chance!!!!!!


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Stan,

I'm glad to hear you were able to get a talented dog under control and have a plan going forward. I think things will really start to click for the 2 of you now.

It was also nice to see you acknowledge those who helped you. We all need outside help at some point. There are some very generous folks on this forum.-Paul


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

paul young said:


> Stan,
> 
> I'm glad to hear you were able to get a talented dog under control and have a plan going forward. I think things will really start to click for the 2 of you now.
> 
> It was also nice to see you acknowledge those who helped you. We all need outside help at some point. There are some very generous folks on this forum.-Paul


Paul,
As the saying goes *"I didn't know what I didn't know."*
I was so fortunate to find people that genuinely wanted to help us.
And they did.

I am grateful, and they know that.


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## Donna Kerr (May 19, 2003)

It was great meeting you this past weekend Stan. 

Thanks again for everything…Scrub and I need all the help we can get and we greatly appreciate the help from you, and everyone else, along the way.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Donna Kerr said:


> It was great meeting you this past weekend Stan.
> 
> Thanks again for everything…Scrub and I need all the help we can get and we greatly appreciate the help from you, and everyone else, along the way.


It was a pleasure to meet you too, Donna.
I hope you had a great time.
You have a terrific dog!!!!


It is about to start getting interesting for you!!!

YOU 2 can do it!!!!!!!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great thread and great story, Stan. Victory by effort and perseverance! So glad you are a judge and contributing so positively to the sport and it's newcomers!

Jennifer


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## Craig Larter (Dec 8, 2011)

I also have a vocal lab 1 1/2yrs old. She is vocal at the line and also just after she is sent---the more excitment the more vocal----it's definitely a stress reaction. I tiied the approach sugestted and the line manners improved but she still barked when leaving the line. I noticed that her stress almost disappears if she holds a bumper. So I have had her hold a bumper----watch the mark (which she does very calmly---no squirming)---have her give me the bumper before sending her-------no bark when sent-----then tons of praise. The holding the bumper seems to reduce the stress. I was going to keep this up to see if it will break the reaction. Does this make any sense to you Pro's. Thanks


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

The bumper in the mouth approach works for awhile as a band aid approach BUT the end result will result with a noisy dog..Randy


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I just want to add some perspective.
I have recieved a few pm's and e-mails on this.

You can't take 1 aspect of this procedure out of context, try it at 1 training session and have everything fixed.

To put this *in* context, I have been following and building on this for *2 years*.
And I still concentrate on this issue above evrything else, everyday!!!

*EVERYDAY!!!*

There is no instant fix for this.

JMO


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## Craig Larter (Dec 8, 2011)

Thanks very much for you reply, I figured the bumper in the mouth would be to easy a fix. I do understand this is a long process but my little girl has so much talent it's worth the effort. Today singles with duck call at the line. She heeled to the line quit calm-----no noise. I am getting a little cry on release but I am allowing that in/as my standard. 
I will check back in at the end of the summer-----decided no HT,s this year until I get this hopefully fixed. Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Craig


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## Matthew J. Ries (Jul 1, 2012)

Stan, great post. Glad I came across this, I have had this problem begin creeping up on us as we get into bigger group training days and as excitement climbs (would hate to see us at an actual hunt test :/ ). I was trying to correct the problem in a combination of the things you suggest, but also some you suggest we don't use...needless to say I will be using your systematic approach to work more methodically with my girl on this in preparation for fall! 
Thanks, Matt


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

The problem with trying to fix noise and control issues at every training session is that you never get to train and advance your dog. When teaching a dog something new you like to start the day where you stopped the day before, fixing noise is a 90 day process for worst cases only,most should be 60 days. As always when correcting get in get out and move on...Most likely after a day or 2 off from training the dog may try to push your buttons again but the fix to put them back into real time again is about 30 seconds...get in get and move on...Randy


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Randy Bohn said:


> The problem with trying to fix noise and control issues at every training session is that you never get to train and advance your dog. When teaching a dog something new you like to start the day where you stopped the day before, fixing noise is a 90 day process for worst cases only,most should be 60 days. As always when correcting get in get out and move on...Most likely after a day or 2 off from training the dog may try to push your buttons again but the fix to put them back into real time again is about 30 seconds...get in get and move on...Randy


Are you saying what I posted here is a waste of time?

Interesting.


With all due respect Randy, that post is out of line.
No 2 solutions are the same.



This is my approach to solving our problem.
It has served us well.
My apologies if I have given bad advice.


And I will admit, it is probably worth what you paid for it!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEPaul,
As the saying goes *"I didn't know what I didn't know."
I was so fortunate to find people that genuinely wanted to help us.
And they did.

I am grateful, and they know that.*][/QUOTE]

It sounds like he is still helping'

Now wrap your mind around what he just actually taught and get her done. There is great wisdom in what Randy just wrote. It didn't appear to me like he was chastising you,,, but only trying to redirect your efforts so your dog can continue to move forward. But may be I read it wrong. Don;t stop the maintenence even regular ole dog training needs maintenance to keep sharp,, I guess its called," balance"


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> The problem with trying to fix noise and control issues at every training session is that you never get to train and advance your dog.


I agree. The implication of dealing with a noise problem is the impact that it has on training. Delaying the overall progression of training and skill development of the dog is the biggest downside to dealing with noise. 

It is difficult to advance the skills of the dog while focusing on eliminating noise.

It has been awhile, but I do remember the frustration of having a talented dog that was held back. When my "Sinner" was a youngster, she was a loud, whining, screamer. It took nearly two years of training to reduce the noise to a manageable level and I would have much preferred to have fixed it sooner. I would have valued and investigated any humane solution that resulted in a quiet dog on a faster timeline. 

Our dog's careers are too short in the best of circumstances. In Sinner's case, two years of her short career was spent focusing on noise. 

Now, when I look into her graying face, I wish we could have been doing something more fun during the time we were teaching her to be quiet or that I could have done it quicker.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

road kill said:


> Are you saying what I posted here is a waste of time?
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> ...


Stan- You know I love you man but I think you're being overly sensitive. This does not take away from the fact that you have worked through the issue with Elvis ad have gotten the results you were after. You have done a wonderful job. But I'm sure if you look in your heart of hearts you wish you could've done it quicker. 

randy is just trying to tell you and others that two years is 1 year and 9 months too long- where you could have been moving on. Jeff Telander is right. If he would have gotten Sinners noise problem under control earlier, she may have had more fun in field trials before she had to retire due to injury. ( Not that she hasn't gone to do wonderful things and become a tracking champion but that is another issue.). Our wonderful dogs lives are too shorts and their competitive lives even shorter. Instead of being overly sensitive, I would be asking Randy how to fix the noise problem in 90 days or less. 

Randy has had very talented dogs one of which had a noise issue that he had to work on and fix. That bitch had a ton of aa points and could Mark your socks off. He has felt your pain. Now he is a professional trainer, he gets called upon time after time to fix not only noise issues but other issues that other professionals or amateurs have screwed up with their dogs. I respect his advice and counsel. I only wish Randy lived closer to me. Randy has given me lots of time on text messages and phone calls that I greatly appreciate.

so, I would take this as an opportunity to learn another technique. 

Kind Regards-


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

road kill said:


> Are you saying what I posted here is a waste of time?
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> ...


With all due respect Stan it is yours and not Randy's post that is out of line.
Randy is one otf the best RTF posters. You gave him credit for solving a very difficult issue.
Now you want to bite the hand that fed you???

Get over yourself and your sensitive need to be an internet hero.
You said you didn't know what you dont' know.
That is correct. You still don't and never will know it all. Nobody will!!!

But this type 2 attitude will prevent you from getting as close as you'd like.

You have insisted that you feel Elvis's problem is rooted in genetics.
What everyone has politely avoided telling you is that this is a problem that may have a genetic component to it; but that in a vast majority of cases the environmental component { that means you STAN} has to be so remiss as to allow the genetics and whatever to allow this problem to become as chronic as you say it was with you and Elvis.

Good luck with your dog & I'll bet you'll find help to be more available in the future if you dont get your panties in a wad & are willing to completely listen to the more knowledgeable who so graciously offer their expertise freely and willingly


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> With all due respect Stan it is yours and not Randy's post that is out of line.
> Randy is one otf the best RTF posters. You gave him credit for solving a very difficult issue.
> Now you want to bite the hand that fed you???
> 
> ...


What a lovely post.
It is clear you havn't resad much of the thread.

I missed Randys advice, all I saw was criticism of how long it took.

I would love to read Randys procedure.
Perhaps he will post it.

Thanks for the kind words and sage advice Mark!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Randy Bohn said:


> _*The problem with trying to fix noise and control issues at every training session is that you never get to train and advance your dog*_. When teaching a dog something new you like to start the day where you stopped the day before, fixing noise is a 90 day process for worst cases only,most should be 60 days. As always when correcting get in get out and move on...Most likely after a day or 2 off from training the dog may try to push your buttons again but the fix to put them back into real time again is about 30 seconds...get in get and move on...Randy


 I hi-lited the above. Not only can you not train and advance with each session, you will not be invited back to too many sessions if you have to spend 1/2 hour or more each time on your control issues. I scooted around this one by bouncing back and forth between line manners and higher education, getting neither one perfect. 



jeff t. said:


> I agree. The implication of dealing with a noise problem is the impact that it has on training. Delaying the overall progression of training and skill development of the dog is the biggest downside to dealing with noise.
> 
> It is difficult to advance the skills of the dog while focusing on eliminating noise.
> 
> ...


_*
*_
And this really touched my heart. The reason I do this is to have quality time and build a better bond with my dog. It hurts me to the core to look back at all I allowed my dog to be put through before I realized how much fun slow training could be. But in the end, we could have had so much more fun, and made more progress if I had known a quicker but humane way to deal with it at the time.

And Stan, I really don't think Randy was demeaning your efforts. Read what he was offering and combine it with what you have learned. Then you really make progress!


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

1) Most important...Stan, I didn't mean to upset you , not my intention...you took my post the wrong way.
2) Everybody....Stans a good man in trying to help others, cut him some slack
3) Obedience is key
What I was trying to say was fix it move on...and yes there are many ways to do things and if they work great if not find another way.I never got my dog of a life time under control with noise and that was years and years and session and session of nothing but noise elimination on line, no advancement in training. Now it's 90 days and done for the bad ones but most are back in the real world by 60 days. Get in and get out and move on..Randy


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Randy Bohn said:


> 1) Most important...Stan, I didn't mean to upset you , not my intention...you took my post the wrong way.
> 2) Everybody....Stans a good man in trying to help others, cut him some slack
> 3) Obedience is key
> What I was trying to say was fix it move on...and yes there are many ways to do things and if they work great if not find another way.I never got my dog of a life time under control with noise and that was years and years and session and session of nothing but noise elimination on line, no advancement in training. Now it's 90 days and done for the bad ones but most are back in the real world by 60 days. Get in and get out and move on..Randy


Thank you Randy!
My apologies for misunderstanding.
As you are aware, many face this problem, hopelessly.
I am NOT an expert, just trying to give hope.

I didn't mean to sound as I know it all.
I am on a constant quest to learn more.
I am aware I have so much to learn.

Thanks again!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

road kill said:


> I missed Randys advice, all I saw was criticism of how long it took.
> 
> I would love to read Randys procedure.
> Perhaps he will post it.
> ...


Are you serious??
In one post you credit a number of people for their advice in helping you. The second name listed BY YOU was Randy Bohn

*Vocal Dog at the Line Correction, road kill style
*People who contributed;
Evan Graham, Randy Bohn, Chris Atkinson, Lanse Brown, Susan Bledsoe, Bon Malari, Ted Shih, Rich Pyka and finally Janie Hoctel and


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, Elvis is about 12 years old now.
He still breathes fire at the line.
My training partners say he is pretty steady and quiet now.
But it is just who he is.

After 4 surgeries, 3 knee, 1 front paw, we are back to campaigning this summer!


I looked back for this thread, thought I would *"BUMP"* it, just in case.

If you can, please read post #1.

I think having this issue is a very difficult, heartbreaking problem.
I remember being TERRIFIED at the line when this stuff started.
Now I just watch him do his thing and laugh.

He don't go quite as hard as he used to (of course, neither do I!), but he still gives his all.

AND, when released, he still gives out what I call a *WARHOOP!*



P.S. This isn't the be all end all, just what we did to address the situation.
Good luck to those facing this issue!

We have a great drill for creeping as well, if there is an interest.

All the best this season everyone!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This is a great thread from the past.. I am happy to see Stan post it again.. I remember the thread well.. I was working through bad line manner issues with "Bailey"

Thanks Stan for posting this..


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