# RE: Line breeding Duke, Bart, Rudy



## dogs360 (Sep 14, 2006)

*RE: Line breeding Duke, Bart, Rudy*

We noticed a thread on line breeding. Even though we have been in the retriever game,
training and breeding dogs for over 30 years, we certainly would not consider ourselves
experts. Our understanding of the theory in line breeding is that it could bring out the
strong traits of that line. But we also understand that it could bring out the weak traits of
that line. Until that type breeding is done with a certain line, it is anybody’s guess as to
which traits are expressed. 

On that note, we would like to give a little background on some dogs and lines that were
mentioned in the earlier thread as we have had the privilege to train all three dogs that
were mentioned. From there you can make your own judgment. 

Little Duke of Fargo was a 7 month old pup when Bill Eckett got him from Phil Brown 
for 3 months in winter. Phil had done a wonderful job and had obviously spent a lot of
time with him. Bill felt he was a very keen puppy with a great training attitude and loads
of natural ability. That would have been 1984-85. Later that year, Duke was sent away to
a total collar training program. At that particular time in dog training history there were
collar programs and non collar programs. Some of the early collar programs used a high
level of intensity even though variable intensity had been introduced. The theory at the
time was a dog that was to be conditioned with the collar had to be able to deal with
maximum pressure to be truly collar conditioned. A lot of dogs were lost in basic collar
conditioning at that time because they couldn’t handle the high intensity of the collar. 
Today we know the value of the variable intensity and how much easier it is to train the
more sensitive dogs. Little Duke went through one of these high intensity programs but
not without repercussions. At around 20 months of age Little Duke came up for sale. At
that time a client of Bill Eckett’s bought him and the dog came back to Bill for training. 
Little Duke did have some attitude issues on blind work the rest of his life, but not on
marks. His strength was at trials, he was a true game player. Clearly, he was successful.

Blackwater Bart was acquired by a client of Bill Eckett’s at about 2 1/2 years of age. 
Bart had a great training attitude and was a very natural marking and lining dog. His
issues were always control on his blinds, especially in water. He was a very high
maintenance dog to correctly prepare for field trials. His father, Little Duke, was very
low maintenance. Bart was bred very few times, but was a good producer. He died at an
early age or he might have been more popular as a sire as his get became more
successful. 

Blackwater Rudy was born at Blackwater and always at Blackwater. Rudy had the
strengths of both of these dogs. A good training attitude like Bart but a little more
sensitive like Duke. He was blessed with all the natural abilities of both dogs. Rudy, as a
sire, has produced dogs with great accomplishments. As with any sire, not all the puppies
are going to be successful. Even though genetics play an important part in the
development of any dog, we feel that there are to many other factors; i.e..socialization,
training programs, etc. that could also influence the growth of the dog. 

The initial question was about line breeding a bloodline. The responses have discussed
training attitude issues. Perhaps another question would be is training attitude always
genetic or could it be environmentally effected. Today’s most successful trainers believe
that their dogs have to be conditioned to the collar while maintaining a positive training
attitude on both marks and blinds. It is not acceptable in todays game as it was in the late
60’s to early 80’s, by judges or trainers, to have a dog that doesn’t move out on his
blinds or marks.

The collar programs and todays successful trainers have evolved a great deal from the
early 80’s. We are now able to take the more sensitive dogs who have a great natural
ability and successfully condition them to the collar and still have stylish dogs. The
evolution of todays most successful collar programs has taken place because the ideal dog
is one with great style, good marking ability, and is always under control. 

The Internet is wonderful for having these discussions but the proof is in what we
produce in the field and in competitions. Professionals and amateurs who consistently
produce champions through their training or breeding programs are the ones whose input
we should consider. 

Sorry to be so lengthy on our first and probably only entry. It is just our opinion and we
thought this needed to be said.

Bill and Becky Eckett


----------



## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Thank you for your very knowledgeable input...


----------



## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

THESE are the posts that make RTF worth reading! It's just great to get a history of individual dogs, as well as a bit of insight as to what influenced them in terms of their training.

Thanks!

M


----------



## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Its nice when someone with hands on experience post on the subject. Thanks


----------



## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Nice read!!


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Thank you Mr. and Mrs. Eckett. Posts like this are what make me feel truly honored and fortunate to be a member of this forum. I realize that your post was prompted by one that trended towards heresay and sidewalk supervisory type comments, but I am glad it was made, and amazed at what a fine job you have done in educating rather than castigating. Again, thanks for reminding me what is possible through this forum, and what a great sport the dog games can be!


----------



## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Just one word from me. "WOW!" That is why I love RTF and reading great stories like this one.

Angelo


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

dogs360;
The Internet is wonderful for having these discussions but the proof is in what we
produce in the field and in competitions. Professionals and amateurs who consistently
produce champions through their training or breeding programs are the ones whose input
we should consider.
Sorry to be so lengthy on our first and probably only entry. It is just our opinion and we
thought this needed to be said.
Bill and Becky Eckett[/quote said:


> Thank
> 
> 
> Bill & Becky; Thank you so much for an informative, unbiased, FIRSTHAND accounting of the facts as you know them.
> I loved your entire post. I particularily see an immense wisdom in the second to last cited paragraph!!


----------



## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

Once again the Eckett"s prove they are a class act. Great dogs...Great people.


----------



## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

All that I can say is please don't make this your last entry. We need people like you to pull good info from. 

Thanks!!


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

All in favor of them staying on this forums say "I" 

I understand you spend more time training in one day then most of us spend in a week, happy training!!


----------



## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

dogs360 said:


> ... we certainly would not consider ourselves experts....
> 
> Bill and Becky Eckett


That's a good one! Thanks for the whole post.

===

I had a nice Rudy litter. Don't know if I'd line breed to him.

I saw the Little Duke run only once. He lined a very difficult amateur water blind that was eating the rest of the pack alive...


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

I know that forums like RTF can be quicksand to an A-List trainer, but I hope you will continue to at least monitor the forum and keep us on the straight and narrow when the need arises. Thanks to the Ecketts.


----------



## ducksoup (Oct 3, 2005)

Thanks Bill and Becky for this great thread -- and now we have the facts on these equally great dogs -- and I personally hope that they both post here again -- very refreshing and informative


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

My hunch is that the Ecketts, like their peers who shall remain nameless, are WAY too busy to monitor RTF. But, the top players in our community do find out about it through contacts when sensitive topics hit the board.

I frequently refer to RTF's content as like prospecting for gold. There are valuable nuggets in here, but sometimes it takes the prospector some time to sift through the sand and shale.

Thanks much to Bill and Becky for taking the time out of a busy schedule to give some first-hand accounting of a scenario. The style and content are exemplary of what puts the "pro" in "professional".

Sincerely,

Chris


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes, Becky. It was an excellent post. I’m grateful that you invested the time and effort into expanding on what is evidently a prickly subject. You’re being too modest about your knowledge of breeding, though!

In order to clear up what has become a bit of a misunderstanding on this topic, I wanted to add a bit more detail about my honest opinions, and what they’re based on. First, I’ve always been impressed with Blackwater breedings, and the way litters were taken care of there. That factored into the decision my partner and former client, Dick, and I made to purchase a pup from the litter when they bred Duke to Sparky. I always admired Duke’s talent, but Sparky was the chief influence on my decision.

She was such a steady performer for Joe. We went to pick our pup when Bill was winter training and Julie was looking after two litters. We took the pups out for a little romp, and Bart just stood out to me. From that first exposure I thought he had “the look”. I can’t quantify it, or even do justice to intellectualizing it. But if you’ve ever seen it, you know what I’m saying.

Bart grew up in my back yard, and in my home. He wasn’t in a kennel run until he was nearly 2 years old. A joy to train from the beginning, he ran his first licensed Derby at 7 months. By 13 months he had 8 Derby points, and was Qualified All-Age.

Bill and I spoke on numerous occasions about his interest in Lucy, but he would always add, “I wouldn’t mind having that Bart, either!” The time came when Dick and I agreed that it would be in Bart’s best interest that he go to a pro who would give him a good opportunity to have the all-age career he clearly deserved. In my mind Bill was the best in our region and certainly one of the best in the country, and that would allow me to follow his progress and see him work now and then. It was never my intent to make a career of campaigning dogs on the circuit, and that would not allow me to give him that chance.

Having spoken with Bill about our decision, he asked that I bring Bart down so we could put him through some work and see how he operated. Bill has very fine grounds, so we could do anything we needed to do. He said he would like to stick him in the Jayhawk trial to get a feel for how he worked under judgment. 

Now Bill or Becky would have to correct me if I’m wrong here, but I don’t think he had time to do much, if any training with him prior to that trial, as it was the next weekend. In any event, Bill ran him in the Open and got 2nd. I also remember Bill saying the water blind wasn’t an especially tough one, and that helped Bart, whose weakness was in that area. Made sense to me! Bart was barely over 2, and we were just beginning to grow him up a bit in his water blinds. He was sold shortly thereafter to two of Bill's clients as a partnership.

I watched a good deal of the working career of Duke, Bart, and Rudy. With specific regard to Bart, I knew him firsthand. I trained him and ran him for the first two years of his life. I loved him well. I’ve been as open and honest about this subject as I can be, and have intended no disrespect or malice toward anyone. My intent has only been to answer an honest question with an honest opinion based on that experience.

I hope your breeding goes well. You’ve gotten more than you bargained for in the information department, I would say.

*Evan*


----------



## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

..another jewel of a post... So glad I did not miss this one. 

Thanks..

Judy


----------



## TerryR (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm not sure if most retriever enthusiasts realize what a wonderful animal Blackwater Rudy is. I've had the pleasure of being around Rudy most of his life. Rudy was purchased by Dave Harter as a young pup from Bill and Becky Eckett. Bill bred his own dog Little Misty to Blackwater Bart. Bill trained both Bart and Bart's sire, Duke. Rudy was a special dog from day one. I had the distinct pleasure of watching Rudy train and trial his entire career. 21 Derby points, Qualifying win in his first ... and only Qualifying, an Open win as a 2 year old, qualified for many National Opens and National Amateurs, a National finalist, and the list goes on. 

Most of you will never realize what an amazing animal Rudy is. He has tremendous desire, superb marking ability. and above all ... incredible intelligence. One of Rudy's greatest qualities was finding a way to do field trial tests. Somehow he knew how to "get out of trouble" and "get the birds." I wish the RTF readers could have experienced some of his amazing accomplishments. Many of you know he sired a National Field Champion and high-point derby dog, along with many field champions. What you never experienced was how smart he is. He is truly an amazing animal! Evan, and others, get on their internet pulpit and preach to the internet choir about breeding animals, whether to line-breed or not, and who is a great sire, but I believe if you read Bill and Becky's advice, it is sound. Quit reading the opinion of someone who knows little or nothing about the animal and start watching for dogs you like ... and start talking to the professional trainers and amateurs that actually run the dogs. How are we to know what is "genetic" .. and what is "environmentally" acquired through training experiences?

Ted Shih is a good friend. If you read his comments on buying pups you will notice he chooses pups from dogs that he has actually watched ... or dogs that are proven producers. Isn't this a far more educated approach, than asking internet opinions, then actually believing persons who have no knowledge, and only "here-say" opinions on dogs? 

Rudy will be 13 years old on January 1, 2008. He is happily retired in Dave's home, had a great field trial career, amassing 179 AA points, and most importantly ... Rudy is loved by those who knew him and appreciated his talents.

Terry Rotschafer


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Bill and Becky Eckett, and with Terry Rotschafer, they rarely venture onto these forums. It is a measure of their displeasure with the comments made about Rudy and of their loyalty and friendship towards Rudy's owner, Dave Harter, that they have taken the time to publicly address comments made concerning the advisability of linebreeding to Rudy.


I never saw Rudy in his prime. I ventured into this game as Rudy was feeling the aches and creaks that come with age. However, over the years, I have had the pleasure of spending many hours with Bill Eckett and with Bobby George asking them about their favorite dogs and Rudy never fails to come up at the top of the list. If you look at the record, you can see that Rudy was a superlative competitor.


I just went over to Good Dog Info, and the following were among Rudy's progeny


FC BARTON CREEK'S CLASSIC GLASS (BLK-BY) M

AFC BIGWOODS LOST RIVER JAKE (BLK) M

FC BLACKWATER BE BE (BLK) F

FC-AFC BLACKWATER RUBY II (BLK-BY) F

AFC DAYS END MAPLE CREEK SUGAR (YLW) F

2006 NFC-AFC DR. COPPER, PH.D MH (YLW) F

AFC HAWKEYE'S COAST GUARD 2003 NDC (YLW) M

FC-AFC HUNTING HILLS CORIANDER (YLW) M

AFC PRAIRIE PEAK CIRCUIT BURNER (BLK) F

FC RIPARIAN WINDFALL (YLW) M

That is a pretty impressive list. In addition to being a superlative performer, it would certainly seem that Rudy is an excellent producer.


I am constantly amazed at how often people are willing to offer hurtful comments on line without any personal knowledge about the subjects on which they write.


For example, we recently had someone tell us that Carbon had bad elbows and throws bad elbows. That turned out to be false.

Someone else stated that he had heard that a HRCH dog threw bad hips. When asked what basis he had for making that opinion, he said his friends told him so. 


With the access that the internet affords for immediate ... and widespread dessemination of information ... I think all of us have an obligation to think before we offer ill-informed or uninformed opinions that are hurtful to others.


Ted


----------



## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

I got to see Rudy run a number of times. He was a very impressive dog. Thanks Terry & Bill/Becky for taking the time to post.


----------



## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I, like Ted, never got to see Rudy run in his prime. However, I was fortunate enough to see him run one time. And that one time will stick with me for a very, very lone time. Not because Rudy picked up birds that no other dog could. He didn't step on birds that seemed impossible. But rather, because Dave brought him out to our club trial this year in Valley (at 12 years old) and let a young lady (maybe 8) run him. And another lady who was attending her first dog event step up to the line and call his name. Both times Rudy went out and picked the birds up and brought them back to his handlers. By the smiles on their faces you would have thought Rudy just won the National! 

I love to read the testimonies of these great dogs. And I hope that the people that have had the honor to own, train and know these dogs continue to post on this forum.



Jason Brion


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

The truth of the matter is this. No dog is perfect. No trainer is perfect. I can honestly say that every dog I work with excels at something and has some weaknesses. To expect otherwise is well, irrational and not logical. With that being said, any dog that achieves a FC or AFC is special. Quite frankly in the grand scheme of things and considering the amount of retrievers out there, any retriever getting upper titles in any venue is special. As they get older and see them continue to express the same desire that physically they cannot match, well they become even more special. I appreciate the post the by the Ecketts as people who clearly love their dogs, love the dogs they trained and appreciate the great skills their dogs exhibited. Its made me reflect on my 2 most memorable dogs FC Days Creek Maximus and RIM’s Black Ice MH. I also spent a day in the field this morning thinking about some of the good dogs I’ve got to work with that will never exhibit the skills of those 2 frontrunners, yet gave me their all and personal best everytime we trained or ran a test. Here’s to the dogs, who could care less what we discuss on the internet, and just want to work for us. Bottoms up….

/Paul


----------



## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

bump.....
bump


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

It is easy enough to say ... well all that is happening is that people are sharing their opinions. So, what’s the harm?

Two things:
1) Would you be so nonchalant if people were talking about your dog? (I doubt it); 
2) And what if the opinions were based upon innuendo rather than facts?
Here is what Evan wrote

I strongly suggest you think this through carefully. I co-owned FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II. Picked him out of a litter and raised him at home. What we all would hope is that through line breeding you may get consistent qualities like he had, but with stronger water acumen.

*However, you must recognize that he is a son of NAFC-FC The Little Duke of Fargo; an absolutely miserable dog to train due to his attitude. He came by that attitude genetically. His line is infamous for it. Lots of talent, but very hard to train.* 

I'm being very honest about this. I loved Bart, but I think his wonderful attitude toward training was a gift from his mom (FC-AFC Rocky Mountain Star II). You can do better for a bitch line. Do something that will compliment your dog's best traits and perhaps strengthen any weak areas.
I wouldn't try to scare anyone off of breeding to Rudy or that line. There are fine qualities to be gained there. I would not line breed it, though.
And then

Believe me, Bart was never ever like that. He and Lucy were pretty much the high point of every training day. Always ready, always wanting to work. *But you can't deny genetics and their potential influence on future generations*. It's a crap shoot, but why gamble with line breeding?

And

I think Rudy was a good sire, and that it's a line worthy of pursuing. I just don't think it would be wise to line breed. It's really up to the individual. *I just can't imagine lining up that strain and expecting not to have its downside surface as a trait in the pups*.

In summary, what did Evan say?
1) Little Duke of Fargo was a miserable dog to train
2) Little Duke of Fargo’s attitude was genetic, not man made
3) Little Duke’s miserable training attitude will be passed onto to his descendants
4) Rudy is a descendant
5) If you line breed on Rudy, you should expect to get puppies with miserable training attitude

All in all, a pretty unattractive picture

Compare this to what Bill Eckett had to say about the Little Duke of Fargo

Little Duke of Fargo was a 7 month old pup when Bill Eckett got him from Phil Brown for 3 months in winter. Phil had done a wonderful job and had obviously spent a lot of time with him. Bill felt he was a very keen puppy with a great training attitude and loads of natural ability. That would have been 1984-85. Later that year, Duke was sent away to a total collar training program. At that particular time in dog training history there were collar programs and non collar programs. Some of the early collar programs used a high level of intensity even though variable intensity had been introduced. The theory at the time was a dog that was to be conditioned with the collar had to be able to deal with maximum pressure to be truly collar conditioned. A lot of dogs were lost in basic collar
conditioning at that time because they couldn’t handle the high intensity of the collar. Today we know the value of the variable intensity and how much easier it is to train the more sensitive dogs. Little Duke went through one of these high intensity programs but not without repercussions. At around 20 months of age Little Duke came up for sale. At that time a client of Bill Eckett’s bought him and the dog came back to Bill for training. Little Duke did have some attitude issues on blind work the rest of his life, but not on marks. His strength was at trials, he was a true game player. Clearly, he was successful.

And this is what Bill said about Blackwater Bart, Rudy’s sire

Blackwater Bart was acquired by a client of Bill Eckett’s at about 2 1/2 years of age. Bart had a great training attitude and was a very natural marking and lining dog. His issues were always control on his blinds, especially in water. He was a very high maintenance dog to correctly prepare for field trials. His father, Little Duke, was very low maintenance. Bart was bred very few times, but was a good producer. He died at an early age or he might have been more popular as a sire as his get became more successful. 
In short, what Bill Eckett told us was this:
1) He had Little Duke of Fargo as a very young dog
2) Little of Fargo had a "great training attitude"
3) Little Duke of Fargo’s "great training attitude" was destroyed because of a very tough collar program
4) Blackwater Bart, Duke’s son, had a "great training attitude"

Now, when you compare what Bill had to say to what Evan had to say
What do you think of the merits - and factual underpinnings of Evan’s comment that "I just can't imagine lining up that strain and expecting not to have its downside surface as a trait in the pups"?

How responsible do you think that opinion is?

And how would you feel if you were Dave Harter, the owner of Blackwater Rudy?

Then tell me again, how there is no such thing as bad information on the internet


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Well, this topic, and the honest opinions I’ve offered, has been spun out of all reasonable proportion. So I’ll make just one more effort at clarification, though little has been asked for by those now attempting to scald me for my position.

An inexperienced breeder asked an honest question about the possibility of line breeding his bitch to Rudy. That’s a very commendable thing to do, as many others would have been less cautious, and perhaps merely gambled on their hunch about what would seem to be a good idea.

I don’t usually comment on breeding questions, but I have some firsthand knowledge and experience with this line, along with prior input from another noted trainer with firsthand knowledge of the line, and offered an honest opinion based on that. *It was not a warning not to breed to Rudy*, nor have any of my posts said that. Indeed, every time I posted I endorsed Rudy as a sire, except in post #2 where I didn’t mention him at all. I have not posted a single negative word directed toward Rudy. All of my caution about this line has been centered on my opinion of Duke.

My only caution to the question asked was in specific regard to line breeding, which I’ve explained that I have a general aversion to – Rudy or not. I didn’t issue a warning not to line breed to Rudy. *I suggested using caution*, and provided that caution directly to the individual who asked the original question.

_“I strongly suggest you think this through carefully.”_

I then answered his direct questions as honestly as possible, based on the above criteria. When it became evident that some board members viewed my opinions as derogatory towards Rudy I inquired via private messages about their opinions. I believe that is the honorable thing to do. 

The sole reply was a rant; consisting of carefully selected and highlighted sentences spun to produce the negativity that individual took from my comments. No discussion or objective input was offered. It was merely an accusation of the sort recently foisted on the board as if to be inarguable. 

To any reader I offer first a suggestion to read carefully for yourself and gain what you believe may be of value, and decide for yourself about the general tenor of its content. 

To any who have taken offense at what I’ve offered in this discussion I offer my sincere apology. No offense was ever intended, although I realize that no matter what intent one may have in offering an honest opinion, someone is apt to take offense at it.

I remain a strong advocate of breeding to Rudy and his line. I also remain skeptical about conducting line breeding without significant knowledge and experience, regardless of the line.

*Evan*


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

All you have to do is read your posts, Evan to know that your latest comment is nothing but spin control

According to you, you never warned against line breeding Rudy

Let's look at your words and see if that spin holds up

Among other things, you said


I think Rudy was a good sire, and that it's a line worthy of pursuing. I just don't think it would be wise to line breed. It's really up to the individual. *I just can't imagine lining up that strain and expecting not to have its downside surface as a trait in the pups*.


Ted


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

It seems to me what we have here is 2 differing opinions, Evans or the Ecketts.

Both seem to have 1st hand knowledge of the line and traits of said line.

That is good enough for me. Now it is up to that person who made the original post/question to make an informed decision.


----------



## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

Evan said:


> An inexperienced breeder asked an honest question about the possibility of line breeding his bitch to Rudy.




Did I say that I was an inexperienced breeder? If I were inexperienced, I wouldn't have asked about it, I would have just done it. I am experienced and know that it will take a couple of years to find the right stud for this girl, IF she is even worthy of being bred in the first place. By asking on this forum, I was hoping to find someone that has done a similar line-breeding on Rudy and could give me some insight to how the pups turned out. If I cannot find anyone that has line-bred on Rudy, I can't tell what the pups will turn out like, so I wouldn't do the breeding.


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> All you have to do is read your posts, Evan to know that your latest comment is nothing but spin control
> 
> According to you, you never warned against line breeding Rudy
> 
> ...


First this disclaimer, I know nothing about breeding dogs. Before you blow me off as being ignorant and therefore of no consequence to this discussion know that my family spent years breeding Thoroughrbred horses. Apples and oranges maybe but genetics are genetics and I know from personal experience that an owners view of an animal they have bred and raised, no matter what the acomplishments, sometimes is more positive than others that may interact with the animal later in their careers. I could give you a number of examples of horses in the racing industry, that you would recognize immediately, that have had great success and are thought of very highly by their owners. I can also tell you why we would not have used these particular breedings in our line.
I do not know where the discussion crosses the line from opinion to personal attack but as it applies to breeding I personally haven't seen it crossed.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Saltmarsh

I suggest re-read this entire thread

First, look at what Evan wrote
1) Evan claimed that Little Duke of Fargo had a miserable training attitude
2) Evan claimed that this training attitude was genetically based
3) Evan claimed that this miserable training attitude would be genetically passed on through three generations (Little Duke - Bart - Rudy)
4) Evan claimed that this miserable training attitude would likely be passed onto any puppies that were linebred on Rudy
If you or anyone disputes my summary of Evan’s position, please show me where I am wrong by pointing to Evan’s words as I have done

And please tell me how an owner would not view a person's comment that linebreeding to his male would result in dogs with a miserable training attitude as an attack ....

Second, look at what Bill wrote
1) Little Duke had a wonderful training attitude as a young dog
2) Little Duke’s wonderful training attitude disappeared after he was introduced to a very rugged collar program
3) It is important to consider training in reaching conclusions about whether a certain trait is genetically caused or man made
After you read what Bill wrote, tell me that you believe he is looking at the world through rose colored glasses.

Third, look at Bill’s record in training and competing with dogs and compare it to Evan’s

Fourth, consider the consistency of Evan’s position

Evan claims that he never warned anyone off of line breeding on Rudy

But, he wrote: I just can't imagine lining up that strain and expecting not to have its downside surface as a trait in the pups.

Then tell me ... do you consider that a warning? Or not? 

After you have done all that, tell me whether you would rely upon what Bill says .... or Evan ....
Then finally, tell me how you as the owner of FC/AFC Blackwater Rudy, 

- A National Open Finalist
- Holder of almost 200 All Age Points
- Sire of multiple FC and AFC dogs including a National Open Champion
- With all the relevant clearances

Would feel if someone - like Evan - posted comments about your dog based upon faulty or incomplete information

After you do all that, I think you will know what the bitch (line) is


Ted


----------



## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Thread has been very interesting reading to say the least…everyone has dogs they love to train or hunt with and dogs they absolutely hate. Good friend of mine had an FC AFC dog with …hell don’t even want to guess how many points…but I would have never bred to the dog or owned a pup if it was given to me. The dog and his offspring were NOT my kind of dog. Doesn’t make them bad dogs just not my cup of tea and if friend asked me about a breeding I would tell them what I thought....just may not post it here due to my friendship.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, I don't give a rats ass about either side, I just love how entertaining an internet forum gets when lawyers start in about hearsay, slander, and frying someone for having an opinion. I really got a kick out of Ted hammering Evan for "spin control." No ain't that a hoot, someone who does "spin control" for a living hammering someone for "spin control." Wow, you just can't get that kind of entertainment without cable or satellite TV. I wonder how long until we see this on Law and Order Special Victims Unit......

Thank you again Chris for making this all possible...

/Paul


----------



## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well, I don't give a rats ass about either side, I just love how entertaining an internet forum gets when lawyers start in about hearsay, slander, and frying someone for having an opinion. I really got a kick out of Ted hammering Evan for "spin control." No ain't that a hoot, someone who does "spin control" for a living hammering someone for "spin control." Wow, you just can't get that kind of entertainment without cable or satellite TV. I wonder how long until we see this on Law and Order Special Victims Unit......
> 
> /Paul


I don't care who you are, that right there is funny. I didn't know Ted was a lawyer. That explains alot.


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

On second thought, I think I'll just keep it to myself this time. HPW


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Saltmarsh
> 
> I suggest re-read this entire thread
> 
> ...


Great post Ted!!


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

First, look at what Evan wrote1) Evan claimed that Little *Duke* of Fargo had a miserable training attitude – *Not Rudy*.2) Evan claimed that this training attitude was genetically based - *Not Rudy*.3) Evan claimed that this miserable training attitude would be genetically passed on through three generations (Little Duke - Bart - Rudy) – *There is a significant difference between cautioning that a negative trait MAY BE passed on, and CLAIMING THAT IT WOULD.*4) Evan claimed that this miserable training attitude would likely be passed onto any puppies that were linebred on Rudy - *There is a significant difference between cautioning that a negative trait MAY BE passed on, and CLAIMING THAT IT WOULD.*If you or anyone disputes my summary of Evan’s position, please show me where I am wrong by pointing to Evan’s words as I have done – *Okay. You’ve selectively misconstrued, and literally replaced my words with those of your choosing. Words mean things, and if you’re going to assert my intent, you could at least quote me accurately.*And please tell me how an owner would not view a person's comment that linebreeding to his male would result in dogs with a miserable training attitude as an attack .... – *Because there is a significant difference between cautioning that a negative trait MAY BE passed on, and CLAIMING THAT IT WOULD.*

*Again, in every post where I mentioned Rudy (or Bart, for that matter) I made a point to recommend Rudy as a sire, while issuing a caution about line breeding, and a personal opinion that I would not line breed to him, while also stating, “It's really up to the individual.”*(My actual words)

Evan claims that he never warned anyone off of line breeding on Rudy – *That’s correct. I only cautioned against it as an opinion, not a warning.*

*Warning:*
1*:** the act of warning **:** the state of being warned *<he had _warning_ of his illness>2*:** something that warns or serves to warn; *_especially_ *:** a notice or bulletin that alerts the public to an imminent hazard (as a tornado, thunderstorm, or flood)**.*

*In contrast, a caution is “**prudent forethought to minimize risk**”. Not the same things, and not the same intent.*Then tell me ... do you consider that a warning? Or not? *No. It’s a caution, and an opinion.*After you do all that, I think you will know what the bitch (line) isTed

*Well, after all that, it’s clear where the spin originates. Are you always this loose with the facts, Ted? *

*Evan*


----------



## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I feel like I'm in my wife's spinning class.

Evan, if the things you stated about Bart and Duke were not to be associated with Rudy. Than tell me, why would you bring those two dogs into a tread about linebreeding Rudy? A dog is a sum of its parts and when you start talking @#$% on any of those parts you are talking @#$% on the dog IMO. 

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that the only advice given on this forum should be that which is seen through rose colored glasses. However, there is a more constructive ways of passing on such information that won't hurt so many peoples feelings…Its called the PM feature.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Man, pass the popcorn its getting good now. I thought SVU would be more pertinent since we're talking sex crimes here but I see a double back to back episode of SVU and Criminal Intent coming....stay tuned......



oh and by the way, I don't care who you are or what your opinion is/was, Magic Johnson was a way better player than Larry Bird......

/Paul


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

This thread is getting prosecuted. Did an offended party voice a complaint? Evan stated an opinion. The Ecketts chose to give their's. A friend of Rudy and his owner stated their feelings. The prosecutors have taken up the battle of the case without an offended party filing a complaint. The gallery/courtroom should make their own verdict in private. Why is it SO important for some to be the WINNER? Maybe a New Year's resolution is in order. HPW


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I think Harry has a good idea.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Agreed.

Evan


----------



## labinitup (Jan 4, 2005)

Sounds Good!










William W


----------



## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I think Harry has a good idea.


Ditto -- Harry, I was trying to see your profile but it only say you're retired. You are a man of wisdom and could be a good Arbitration lawyer. 

Angelo


----------



## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

Catching up on olde threads, and have to say thanks to the Ecketts for taking time out of their busy schedules to give us the true skinny on this line of dogs.

There is a lot of internet heroes that casually throw out misinformation. It's nice too have these "real life heroes"that really know take the time to set it straight for the "internet heroes"

Thanks again to the Eckett's


----------



## eli reichman (Mar 8, 2005)

Rudy is truly a special animal. It's been my pleasure to watch him train, judge him, compete against him and take a few pictures along the way as well. Excellent post, Bill.


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

eli reichman said:


> It's been my pleasure to watch him train, judge him, compete against him and take a few pictures along the way as well.


What a fantastic picture! Black dogs are hard to get good photographs of, the lighting on that one is just right.


----------



## SmokinJoe (Jun 10, 2005)

smillerdvm...you trying to get a dog on Bill's truck or what?


----------



## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

SmokinJoe No I don't have a dog on or am I trying to get a dog on Ecketts truck. I have never met them

I posted this im reference to info in this thread & a related Blackwater Rudy thread. From my reading of both threads it appears that an "internet hero" had posted repeatedly some wrong information about Rudy and his genetics. That wrong information was a disservice to the entire retriever community, particularily the newbies who may be more easily decieved by internet heroes
The Ecketts, who unlike Evan trained & campaigned all of the dogs at issue, felt it important to take time out of their schedules to set the record straight with first hand knowledge. 
For that I thanked them.
I will try to find the other thread and bump it back up. Then you can read them both and judge for yourself


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Please do because we're all not completely sick and tired of reading this crap. By all means, continue to drag it through the mud....










/Paul


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

smillerdvm said:


> SmokinJoe No I don't have a dog on or am I trying to get a dog on Ecketts truck. I have never met them
> 
> I posted this im reference to info in this thread & a related Blackwater Rudy thread. From my reading of both threads it appears that an "internet hero" had posted repeatedly some wrong information about Rudy and his genetics. That wrong information was a disservice to the entire retriever community, particularily the newbies who may be more easily decieved by internet heroes
> The Ecketts, who unlike Evan trained & campaigned all of the dogs at issue, felt it important to take time out of their schedules to set the record straight with first hand knowledge.
> ...



I don't think you have to do that. Ted had posted a beautiful summary of the intire thread. If you'll pardon the pun, lets let sleeping dogs lay


----------



## SmokinJoe (Jun 10, 2005)

smillerdvm said:


> I have never met them


That figures! Whose the "internet hero" by the way?


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

If you came here to start a fight, I'm your Huckleberry but lets get that done on PM. 

If you came here to spread joy and light please continue.

You decide regards

Bubba


----------



## SmokinJoe (Jun 10, 2005)

Bubba said:


> If you came here to start a fight, I'm your Huckleberry but lets get that done on PM.
> 
> If you came here to spread joy and light please continue.
> 
> ...


I don't have to decide anything on you account BUBBA

Shakin' in my boots regards,

SmokinJoe


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

SmokinJoe said:


> That figures! Whose the "internet hero" by the way?


I'd say right now it's Bubba. HPW


----------



## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

this is what i have been trying to say on this forum for years. no i cant type i have secretarys to do that for me. yes i have a mba i was not an enlish major. but i am a very good dog person. i get blasted because my words are not very eliquent. but so many on this forum talk out thier ass like they know everything about this dogs they have made into superstars because they have a great website or somebody they knew said this or that. if you havent had first hand experience with that certain dog or a certain issue keep your mouth shut. just because some one has 100.000 post doesnt mean they know squat. sorry chris.


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

kip said:


> this is what i have been trying to say on this forum for years. no i cant type i have secretarys to do that for me. yes i have a mba i was not an enlish major. but i am a very good dog person. i get blasted because my words are not very eliquent. but so many on this forum talk out thier ass like they know everything about this dogs they have made into superstars because they have a great website or somebody they knew said this or that. if you havent had first hand experience with that certain dog or a certain issue keep your mouth shut. just because some one has 100.000 post doesnt mean they know squat. sorry chris.


On a serious note, who taught you how to train dogs, Kip? And to what do you attribute your success? I'm an amateur on my first field trial dog, and I'd like to have the kind of success you and some other amateurs have had.


----------



## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Charles, great post. Kip I would also like to hear that. There are very few people that have had the kind of success that you have had. I have talked to Kip once on the phone and he was a great guy to talk to. If I remember right he said he is a cowboy that rides his horses every day and the dogs follow the horses on the rides. I remember him saying he uses a ton of flyers for training. I might be off a bit, it was a few years ago that I talked to him. OR maybe it is his wifes chicken salad that Shayne raves so much about???


----------



## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Charles C. said:


> On a serious note, who taught you how to train dogs, Kip? And to what do you attribute your success? I'm an amateur on my first field trial dog, and I'd like to have the kind of success you and some other amateurs have had.


 Charles i didnt learn from browsing forums. i started when i got out of college in 84. i have had the oppurtunity to train with a lot of good dog people over the years. prolly the biggest influence on me was charlie bunn and don brawly. I watched and keep my mouth shut. charlie told me one time that when u open your mouth u usally show how stupid you really are. i try to use the golden rule in my training.


----------



## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

So it's not just the chicken salad?


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

kip said:


> Charles i didnt learn from browsing forums. i started when i got out of college in 84. i have had the oppurtunity to train with a lot of good dog people over the years. prolly the biggest influence on me was charlie bunn and don brawly. I watched and keep my mouth shut. charlie told me one time that when u open your mouth u usally show how stupid you really are. i try to use the golden rule in my training.


Thanks. I just wondered who influenced your program. I'm learning more and more that there's no easy answer to how to be successful.


----------



## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Charles they didnt influence my training program but the did influence my character and the way i approach the game. Don was the hardest working am. that i had ever known and charlie was a true lover of the game and a great person to boot that took a young kid and let him tag along with him. i miss him dearly. most of my dog training skills came from various people. andy attar and chriss ledford prolly more than any other trainers. jack woodland and russel gaines prolly than any other ams.


----------



## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Thank you ... agreed, very nice info to read. Having a dog out of Cori = Rudy son, I love to hear details about the lineage.

I was told once by a respected friend that "Rudy was the most tallented dog she ever had the honor of watching." This, from someone in "the game" a long time ... It was a nice thing to hear.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I would like to know why this thread has not been locked, or at least sent to purgatory for a revue.
What's up ?

john


----------



## SmokinJoe (Jun 10, 2005)

john fallon said:


> I would like to know why this thread has not been locked, or at least sent to purgatory for a revue.
> What's up ?
> john


Maybe cause you did'nt start it John!?


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

SmokinJoe said:


> Maybe cause you did'nt start it John!?


I think you are on to something there.

........white on rice regards,

john


----------



## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

SmokinJoe said:


> That figures! Whose the "internet hero" by the way?


You are not serious are you? 
Did you read both threads?


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

bumping this thread....

WRL


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

I decided to bump this thread. 

Didn't think about it at the time, but when I was constructing a pedigree today, it dawned on me that I am actually working two dogs that are linebred Rudy.

Rudy is the g-grandfather on the dam side and the grandfather on the sire's side of these dogs.

The two dogs are littermates.

One has been an extremely early maturer, crazy about retrieving, very tractable, bright, intelligent dog and is very very focussed and has been from 8 weeks of age.

The second is a bit slower to mature. But compared to other dogs her age, mostly fits right in. Compared to her sister, slower to mature. She is crazy about retrieving, loves to work, very tractable, not quite as focussed. She doesn't appear to be quite as intelligent as her sister but then she's really right in the norm for most pups her age. 

The breeder had emailed me about whether I thought he should repeat the breeding. I recommended yes. Nothing in either dog has stood out as something I don't like including training attitude or anything else. 

WRL


----------



## J. Torrey (Nov 11, 2007)

I didn't have time to read all the prior posts. To much drama for me. I'm a huge fan of this blood line for it's marking ability. "Marking is of Primary Importance" Every breeding has a few pups who don't have the entire package....Some of the worst dogs I've seen where out of Lean Mac. That's not to say he was not a great sire. The few good ones I had were great dogs to train.

I'm not sure that I'd line breed Rudy directly, but I'd go back to his bitch line and double down with out a doubt. 

If you know of any breeding's like this let me know. I'll take one. 

Good luck this season.


----------



## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

FYI the line breeding of Rudy that was mentioned in this thread is on the ground. 7 pups of which I know there are 4 yellow females and 1 yellow male. If I remember right there is one black male and a female.

They came this morning at 6:30am and all seem very healthy.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

sheriff said:


> FYI the line breeding of Rudy that was mentioned in this thread is on the ground. 7 pups of which I know there are 4 yellow females and 1 yellow male. If I remember right there is one black male and a female.
> 
> They came this morning at 6:30am and all seem very healthy.


Are they all FC's yet? If not then I'm assuming we call the litter a failure....:snipersmile:


/paul


----------



## J. Torrey (Nov 11, 2007)

sheriff said:


> FYI the line breeding of Rudy that was mentioned in this thread is on the ground. 7 pups of which I know there are 4 yellow females and 1 yellow male. If I remember right there is one black male and a female.
> 
> They came this morning at 6:30am and all seem very healthy.


I'll take one if they are still available. Unless you get your hands on them it's hard to know. If it's great..I'll Sell it back to the breeder or any one of the doubters. Like they wouldn't buy a great dog from any line.. If it's a wash, I'll eat the cost. Learning is never cheap. 

I hope they do well. I like the blood.


----------



## Alex (Jan 22, 2008)

In the locked thread on over casting Mr Nutt asked if Evan had exaggerated anything on his website accomplishments.
Many of the All age accomplishments claimed seem to be bootstrapped onto the backs of others.
For example he claimed credit for an Open 2nd for Bart. 

I'm surprised that he would do that in light of these threads wherein it was clear to most that Bill Eckett should get that credit.

These posts pre date Mr Nutts membership on this forum, so I bring them up for him to read and decide for himself


----------



## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Alex said:


> In the locked thread on over casting Mr Nutt asked if Evan had exaggerated anything on his website accomplishments.
> Many of the All age accomplishments claimed seem to be bootstrapped onto the backs of others.
> For example he claimed credit for an Open 2nd for Bart.
> 
> ...


Alex, I have no idea who you are or where you come from. But please, don't take your arguments here and ruin a great thread like this. Like was recommended by FOM, go to PM if you have any further questions for Evan.

Thanks!


----------



## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Interesting how some folks make it a mission in life to downright trash other people.


----------



## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Calm down. No need for this thrash.


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Sheesh. I always seem to miss the good threads with all the controversy.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alex said:


> In the locked thread on over casting Mr Nutt asked if Evan had exaggerated anything on his website accomplishments.
> Many of the All age accomplishments claimed seem to be bootstrapped onto the backs of others.
> For example he claimed credit for an Open 2nd for Bart.
> 
> ...


Facts really mean nothing to a lying reptile who is only looking to discredit me personally. The fact is that Bart got that 2nd while Bill was running Bart to take a look at him under judgment in an Open - considering suggesting two of his clients buy him, which they did. Bart came directly off my truck and went to that trial with Bill having no more than a few days to get familiar with him before the trial. I did the training to that point, and never claimed to have handled him in that trial.

Anymore hogwash, you lying snake?

That's pretty much all you show up for on these forums; to run someone down. Not to help the forum, or anyone who needs good information. Just to drag the dialogue down. You're the truth barometer, aren't you? Not. At least you're _consistent_ in your dishonesty.

Evan


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Alex said:


> In the locked thread on over casting Mr Nutt asked if Evan had exaggerated anything on his website accomplishments.
> Many of the All age accomplishments claimed seem to be bootstrapped onto the backs of others.
> For example he claimed credit for an Open 2nd for Bart.
> 
> ...


Alex,

You owe me personally an apology. I asked you to stop. You made a conscious choice to continue. Please phone me at 217-454-0361.

Your account is going to be locked as soon as I finish posting this. You will be unable to check or send PM messages via RTF. 

When I answer the phone, please introduce yourself to me by your real name. If you are a person whom I already know, and have considered a friend, (yes, you have posted from several IP addresses, however several of those match only one person.) please come clean with me and let's stop the nonsense.

Alex, I kinda feel like I asked you to stay off the granite floors after I got done polishing them. But instead, you chose to take a whiz on them as soon as I walked out the door.

I don't care for personal attacks in general. But I asked you to stop, and I don't have time to play games.

You had a chance to take your quarrel with a person who posts by his real, legal name, private. Instead you took a cowardly approach. It is just plain a "chicken scratch" way to behave.

217-454-0361. I don't find it funny at all. 

How about you phone me and then you go ahead and wax and polish the floors to get them back to the condition I asked you to help me keep them in?

Thanks, Chris

Oh, Evan, I don't blame you for hitting the coward back, but please let's knock it off now. Thanks.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Oh, Evan, I don't blame you for hitting the coward back, but please let's knock it off now. Thanks.


No problem, Chris. Thank you for your professionalism in this matter.

Evan


----------



## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Chris have you ever tracked IP numbers? I'd bet good money Alex has more than one account on RTF.


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I guess I can un-ignore Alex now.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Evan said:


> Facts really mean nothing to a lying reptile who is only looking to discredit me personally. The fact is that Bart got that 2nd while Bill was running Bart to take a look at him under judgment in an Open - considering suggesting two of his clients buy him, which they did. Bart came directly off my truck and went to that trial with Bill having no more than a few days to get familiar with him before the trial. I did the training to that point, and never claimed to have handled him in that trial.
> 
> *Anymore hogwash, you lying snake?*
> 
> ...


Oh wow. This just got biblical. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> Chris have you ever tracked IP numbers? I'd bet good money Alex has more than one account on RTF.


I track IP numbers more than I'd like to. In fact, I was dealing with another "issue" at this early hour...just trying to keep the floors shiny and the RTF machine running smoothly.

Chris


----------



## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I track IP numbers more than I'd like to. In fact, I was dealing with another "issue" at this early hour...just trying to keep the floors shiny and the RTF machine running smoothly.
> 
> Chris


Your doing a great job Chris, its a damn shame you have to do so much.


----------



## scottyb (Jan 30, 2010)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Oh wow. This just got biblical. :lol::lol::lol::lol:


And tasteless to boot

Alex alleges that Evan has had limited succes and titled Zero dogs in his 35+ years of dog training, and that his current 4 yr old dog struggles doing intermediate HRC tests. He also said that Even exagerates his relationship with D.L. Walters and Rex Carr.

Evan's response is to call Alex a lying snake, a classless coward consistent in his dishonesty. He goes on to call him a lying reptile and an idiot who has perfected the art of being a moron. Never addressing the veracity of Alex's allegations.

In post 92 of the locked Overcast thread John Daniels suggested that Evan give us a list of all of the FC's and Afc's that Evan has titled over the years.

This would seem to be a far better way to respond in that it would have disproven part of what was alleged, rather than just making baseless slanderous name calling insults. It would also have been a classier way for a person who is attempting to market their product and who claims to have a concern for class & decorum on these retriever websites.

So far all I've heard from Evan in response to Mr Daniels suggestion are the crickets chirping in 43X's post


----------



## Jeannie Greenlee (Apr 15, 2009)

What was the title of this post????
Take the mud slinging elsewhere!


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

scottyb said:


> In post 92 of the locked Overcast thread John Daniels suggested that Evan give us a list of all of the FC's and Afc's that Evan has titled over the years.
> 
> This would seem to be a far better way to respond in that it would have disproven part of what was alleged, rather than just making baseless slanderous name calling insults. *It would also have been a classier way *for a person who is attempting to market their product and who claims to have a concern for class & decorum on these retriever websites.


As long as you plan to preach about class, Scotty, how about asking me privately about personal points of interest, rather than dredge this smouldering dung heap up for more baseless accusations? My past _is_ and has been a matter of public record. Anyone can lie, and that's what he did. If you want to know more personal information, my email is [email protected] .

Do you really think this inquiry will lead to the advancement of this board in some way? Do you need to make a spectacle of your morbid curiosity? If it's facts your after, email or at least PM me.

Evan


----------



## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

scottyb said:


> And tasteless to boot
> 
> Alex alleges that Evan has had limited succes and titled Zero dogs in his 35+ years of dog training, and that his current 4 yr old dog struggles doing intermediate HRC tests. He also said that Even exagerates his relationship with D.L. Walters and Rex Carr.
> 
> ...




It really amazes me that you have 2 posts on RTF and both are throwing insults a people. Sounds like a troller to me!!!! So why do you even bother to post?


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

scottyb said:


> And tasteless to boot
> 
> Alex alleges that Evan has had limited succes and titled Zero dogs in his 35+ years of dog training, and that his current 4 yr old dog struggles doing intermediate HRC tests. He also said that Even exagerates his relationship with D.L. Walters and Rex Carr.
> 
> ...


Are you and Alex buddies?


*RK*


----------



## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

road kill said:


> Are you and Alex buddies?
> 
> 
> *RK*


or one and the same with a different IP address.


----------



## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

Mistyriver said:


> or one and the same with a different IP address.


That was my first thought!!


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Scotty,

It looks like your account is now locked too. I'd imagine you're not surprised. Maybe you were even testing to see what might happen. You're done on RTF.

Alex has shown a cowardly response to this whole thing. Right when things were heating up and he was really laying on the pressure, he decided to go and hide as soon as I asked him to stand up for himself as a real person under his true identity. Pretty poor form, don't you think?

I have been on the side of virtual confrontation with Evan over accomplishments and credentials in the past. I personally have done this all, (except for a tasteless, immature post that I later removed and apologized for) *in private* with Evan. And yes, I acknowledge that some with too much time on their hands may still find posts via RTF search where I have stated that I prefer Mike's stuff over Evan's.

The fact is that I have had real dialogue as a stand-up human named Chris Atkinson with a real guy whose legal name is Evan Graham. I have apologized for some wrongs on my end. Evan and I have reached some common ground. I'm sure Evan and I would get along famously, and will, when one day our paths cross live.

Do I agree with Evan all the time? no. I sure don't. Do I find that lots of folks who seek help from Evan are satisfied and appreciative? You bet! Some of my closest friends would go to battle, literally, to defend Evan. 

Scotty, this is *spineless, cowardly nonsense (very consistent with Alex)*. Some say you are an alias for Alex, I don't know... I've not found proof and I don't have time to waste on you cowards to try and prove it.

I'm pretty sure, based upon IP matching and feedback from multiple contacts who have come to me via PM, email, and phone, that I know who Alex is. In fact, I knew who Alex was before these others confirmed it.

Alex, you stuck it to me buddy. You asked me to bend some RTF rules for you, to help you out of a bind. I did it. I don't know that I'll be so quick to bend RTF rules for you in the future. 

Scotty, you can find my cellphone number in this thread. If you want to truly stand up and show some integrity, some accountability, you have an open door to do so.

If you really want to show some guts. Pick up the phone and talk with Evan and introduce yourself by your true name and talk it out like a man...with another man.

If not...you're done on RTF. Please don't create any aliases or play games.

I've asked politely for cowardly nonsense attacking Evan's credentials to stop. If any of you really want to discuss Evan's credentials, call him and talk to him as a real person.

Thanks, Chris


----------



## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

I've never understood attacking Evan personally like this. If someone wants to attack the material and has some reasons to back it up, fine, but this is childish.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

achiro said:


> I've never understood attacking Evan personally like this. If someone wants to attack the material and has some reasons to back it up, fine, but this is childish.


My sentiments, as well. I welcome questions about my methods. I welcome dissenting ideas. It gives me an opportunity to shed more light on my rationale. 

How many times has it been said that when three dog trainers get together the only thing two of them will agree on is that the third guy is wrong? There are few enough absolutes in dog training. But there are better ways that have come along over the decades.

Please, if anyone desires at anytime to question my training ideas, don't be shy. It's the personal attacks that have no place on open forums.

Evan


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

.....maybe one should ask "how many people/dogs has Evan helped achieve a title?" Wouldn't that be the more important number vs his own personal dogs? Lord knows, you only get to own so many dogs, and the vast majority of them are NOT going to be FT titled!!!
Not to mention the fact that not everyone WANTS to run in FT's either. The vast majority of people just want a dog that is pleasant to be around 365 days a year, and for 45-90 days of that be a great buddy in the blind or field.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Scotty,

Thanks for the email.

Your account is unlocked.

Alex, your true ID has been uncovered for about the 5th time in the past week. 

Cut it out dude!

If you want to battle with Evan, do it on your own two feet and cut out the nonsense.

This is crazy dude. I have no idea whatsoever why you are choosing to avoid just contacting me directly but the gig is up. 

You are one of the very, very few folks who has both my cellphone and my office number. You've called me at work in the past. I really don't need to hear from you either way, just knock it off please.

It's not funny and it sets a really crummy precedent for inappropriate RTF use.

Cut it out....please!

Thanks, Chris


----------

