# Concern about dog with strangers



## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok RTFers I need some serious help. The topic title is a little tongue in cheek.

As a pup my chessie had gone everywhere with me and my family. Home depot, dog parks, fun runs, all kinds of stuff. He liked everything except car rides. Loved people.

I sent him to a trainer for 6 months and brought him home. He came back like he never left. 

That week my wife took him to work with her at the vet clinic for a routine checkup and to get some preventive meds. He lost it. Tried to attack anyone that can near. I thought it was just that he was protecting her and figured we could fix it pretty easily with me there.

Yesterday I took him hunting with a buddy. Buddy showed up, jumped in the truck with us with no problems. I thought cool, wife just didnt know how to let him know it was a safe environment the first time.

Last night my in laws flew in. We kept him in his crate and then introduced them. He went ballistic so wife just put him outside and kept him in his crate. This morning I decided to do the intro myself. I walked him over to my mother in law, had him sit, and kept my feet on either side of him with a firm grip on hos collar. He wagged his tail and looked totally at ease. Relaxed ears and facial expression. He even tried to lick at her. As soon as she slowly and smoothly went to let him sniff and lick her hand, he went full on nuclear. I would never have believed it if I didnt see it. He loterally instantly went from calm and happy to scary cujo in a half second. As she pulled her hand away he tried to jump and bite at her hand again. I moved my arm around his neck and rolled him onto the floor with me so I was on top of him with a lazy halfway choke hold on his neck, he brought his level down to just angry and i put him outside. I wanted to have people greet him with treats to break him of this but after what I saw Im afraid the risk of injury is too high. 

After I told the trainer about the vet incident he was shocked. He had never dealt with a chessie that was people aggressive. My wife and daughter can do anything to him including mess with his food while he is eating it and he doesnt react. Trainer told me to put him in that position again and then light him up with the collar when he goes for the kill, but Im concerned this approach will only reinforce to him that all strangers are evil. I need help. Ive never been in this situation and I always thought these people that got in this situation before were stupid owners. He has never had a negative interaction before the trainers and I never would have guessed he would do this. I never allowed any aggressive behavior and I discourage him ttying to protect the back yard. It was like a light switch from relaxed to kill mode. Completely unwarranted.

I dont want to get someone hurt trying to get him to change, especially if I get zero warning signs he doesnt like whats going on. My wifes coworkers are willing to try but Id hate them to get bit. Anyone have any ideas? Hes healthy and fully up on all his shots. Sorry for the rant but the more I think about it the more Im concerned I now have a liability pet instead of a hunting companion.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

You have a liability right now. I would run a blood panel to make sure there isn't some health issue causing it. Also get professional help from someone who knows how to deal with aggressive behavior. Where do you live? I am sure someone on RTF can recommend a trainer.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[/QUOTE]After I told the trainer about the vet incident he was shocked. He had never dealt with a chessie that was people aggressive. My wife and daughter can do anything to him including mess with his food while he is eating it and he doesnt react.After I told the trainer about the vet incident he was shocked. He had never dealt with a chessie that was people aggressive. My wife and daughter can do anything to him including mess with his food while he is eating it and he doesnt react. T*rainer told me to put him in that position again and then light him up with the collar when he goes for the kill, *but Im concerned this approach will only reinforce to him that all strangers are evil. I need help. Ive never been in this situation and I always thought these people that got in this situation before were stupid owners. He has never had a negative interaction before the trainers and I never would have guessed he would do this. I never allowed any aggressive behavior and I discourage him ttying to protect the back yard. It was like a light switch from relaxed to kill mode. Completely unwarrantedbut Im concerned this approach will only reinforce to him that all strangers are evil. I need help. Ive never been in this situation and I always thought these people that got in this situation before were stupid owners. He has never had a negative interaction before the trainers and I never would have guessed he would do this. I never allowed any aggressive behavior and I discourage him ttying to protect the back yard. It was like a light switch from relaxed to kill mode. Completely unwarranted[/QUOTE]

Your trainer is an irresponsible idiot. You never know, but with the directions he gave you,,hell he might have caused it in the first place ,,who knows,,,and second of all he says he has never seen a chessie aggressive towards people,,,that's my first hint he hasn't been around the block,,,may be not even been to the next house down. All breeds can be aggressive towards people,especially breeds with guarding instincts.

Pete


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

After I told the trainer about the vet incident he was shocked. He had never dealt with a chessie that was people aggressive. My wife and daughter can do anything to him including mess with his food while he is eating it and he doesnt react.After I told the trainer about the vet incident he was shocked. He had never dealt with a chessie that was people aggressive. My wife and daughter can do anything to him including mess with his food while he is eating it and he doesnt react. T*rainer told me to put him in that position again and then light him up with the collar when he goes for the kill, *but Im concerned this approach will only reinforce to him that all strangers are evil. I need help. Ive never been in this situation and I always thought these people that got in this situation before were stupid owners. He has never had a negative interaction before the trainers and I never would have guessed he would do this. I never allowed any aggressive behavior and I discourage him ttying to protect the back yard. It was like a light switch from relaxed to kill mode. Completely unwarrantedbut Im concerned this approach will only reinforce to him that all strangers are evil. I need help. Ive never been in this situation and I always thought these people that got in this situation before were stupid owners. He has never had a negative interaction before the trainers and I never would have guessed he would do this. I never allowed any aggressive behavior and I discourage him ttying to protect the back yard. It was like a light switch from relaxed to kill mode. Completely unwarranted[/QUOTE]

Your trainer is an irresponsible idiot. You never know, but with the directions he gave you,,hell he might have caused it in the first place ,,who knows,,,and second of all he says he has never seen a chessie aggressive towards people,,,that's my first hint he hasn't been around the block,,,may be not even been to the next house down. All breeds can be aggressive towards people,especially breeds with guarding instincts.

Pete[/QUOTE]

Yep x 2. Chessies have a reputation of being protective. I would seek professional help, maybe? First, have you discussed this with the breeder or the second generation line breeders. They may have some insight or at least they need to know. Personally, I would not spend much time on this dog given his volatile nature. "Lighting up a dog, in that aggressive mode would not be my first choice of a correction. Good Luck, I feel for ya.
Don and Crew


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Question: in the various instances, was a stranger trying to touch him? Like with your MIL, was he good until a stranger reached out a hand? It may help you to learn more, if you can remember the moment when he switched. Body language cues can so often be missed. If you rule out a health issue, it could be that something happened that you aren't aware of ,to trigger this. Honestly, I can see this happening, if a trainer burned him with the collar when he approached a stranger in the past.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

In 2 of the situations the stranger reached towards the dog. In two of them the strangers were approaching my wife with him beside her. He didnt mind one of the vets handling him but that vet walked to the kennel, made him sit, hooked him to a lead and walked him into an exam room. Im pretty sure this is a protection drive but I need it to stop. I live in manhattan ks. I will be talking with the breeder on monday as well as the trainer again. Im hoping to find some people to help me Victoria Stillwell this situation. Have him sit and let them approach to within 10 feet slowly. Stop and toss a treat to him and slowly work from there. I just have to find someone he doesnt like that is willing to work with me. He will let you know he doesnt like you immediately, he just gives no indication before an attack.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

And Don, no offense but at this point I can not give up on this dog. He would have to show some form of aggression towards anyone in my family or anyone that he likes before I will think about that. At this stage in the game my mind is that I will fix this.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Professional help. How old is he?


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Tobias said:


> Professional help. How old is he?


He is 16 months old.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I suspected he was about that age. Might contact Sharon Potter on here. 

I had chessie for 10 years...they need a structured environment. ..especially at this age. I doubt very much you will be able to overcome this issue by yourself. Not because of lack of skill or anything
..but because it this takes a specially educated person to help see behaviors and time corrections appropriately, if needed.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Have a full thyroid panel run and send it to Dr. Jean Dodds. If it is not thyroid and it is behavioral, you have your hands full and I would seek professional help.

Meredith


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

I have an email in to a behaviorist. Its sunday so Im not too hopeful for a quick response. Everyone says this isnt very uncommon for a chessie, and I knew there would be battles at this age. Im just surprised with all this first hand information nobody has fixed this themselves. Did everyone have to send the dog away to a trainer for this behavior?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Man I feel for you. I have no experience in this but the advice thus far that makes sense is get professional help. At least you will give the dog every chance of success. It will also give you a professional's advice and take a little pressure off of you. Good luck.


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## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Your dog is protective. You and your wife are cueing the dog to act in an aggressive manner or in the dogs mind, protective.
Think about how you handled the dog when your hunting buddy arrived as compared to how you handled him when your inlaws were involved. 
The encounter with your hunting buddy read as being business as usual....whereas with your inlaws you inadvertently put your dog on high alert, holding him between your legs, firm grip on his collar....and I'm guessing you were quite apprehensive during this and the dog picked up on it and acted out in a protective nature. 
I'm also guessing something similar happened with your wife at her work....you mention the one vet who had no trouble handling the dog, it read as though your wife was not in contact with the dog at the time, that's likely not a coincidence.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

wraithen said:


> I have an email in to a behaviorist. Its sunday so Im not too hopeful for a quick response. Everyone says this isnt very uncommon for a chessie, and I knew there would be battles at this age. Im just surprised with all this first hand information nobody has fixed this themselves. Did everyone have to send the dog away to a trainer for this behavior?


I would not overlook the suggestions to FIRST for a physical reason. See three posts up, for example. Norwester's analysis suggestion certainly has merit. Still, protective is one thing and not an unmitigated bad one, imo. Going to full craziness without obvious body-language threats is a very different story and is definitely uncommon. I don't think you need to "send the dog away to a trainer". I wouldn't. I'd get it figured out with the help of a QUALIFIED behaviorist with references and experience in this, and solve the problem. Or not. But I'd sure try, after eliminating physical possibilities.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

steveMO said:


> I would not overlook the suggestions to FIRST for a physical reason. See three posts up, for example. Norwester's analysis suggestion certainly has merit. Still, protective is one thing and not an unmitigated bad one, imo. Going to full craziness without obvious body-language threats is a very different story and is definitely uncommon. I don't think you need to "send the dog away to a trainer". I wouldn't. I'd get it figured out with the help of a QUALIFIED behaviorist with references and experience in this, and solve the problem. Or not. But I'd sure try, after eliminating physical possibilities.


Excellent advice steve.


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## catfish_joe (Sep 16, 2013)

wraithen said:


> Last night my in laws flew in. We kept him in his crate and then introduced them. He went ballistic so wife just put him outside and kept him in his crate. This morning I decided to do the intro myself. I walked him over to my mother in law, *had him sit, and kept my feet on either side of him with a firm grip on hos collar. *He wagged his tail and looked totally at ease. Relaxed ears and facial expression. He even tried to lick at her. As soon as she slowly and smoothly went to let him sniff and lick her hand, he went full on nuclear. I would never have believed it if I didnt see it. He loterally instantly went from calm and happy to scary cujo in a half second. As she pulled her hand away he tried to jump and bite at her hand again. I moved my arm around his neck and rolled him onto the floor with me so I was on top of him with a lazy halfway choke hold on his neck, he brought his level down to just angry and i put him outside. I wanted to have people greet him with treats to break him of this but after what I saw Im afraid the risk of injury is too high.


My chessie isn't people aggressive, but has a history of dog aggression so I don't have much to offer. If I was to do what you did above, keeping the dog between my legs and holding his collar, he'd go into instant rage mode when meeting a new dog. I think by restraining him like that, he senses I'm tense and nervous and feels the need to protect me. I basically have to let him meet dogs without restraint and he's great. If he senses I'm nervous, it doesn't turn out good. Not saying to let your pup freely approach people because you don't completely understand why he's aggressive yet, but keep in mind that sometimes your behavior affects their behavior. You could always muzzle him and see how he does. Good luck.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

I havent addressed the workups because they are in the works. He will have a full panel sent out tomorrow.

Im new to chessies but not dogs. Im not concerned with minor protective acts such as stepping between strangers and family. I could even work with a dog that was less aggressive in his approach, but tricking people so he can get a better shot at them is really unnerving.

The question about sending the dog off was tongue in cheek. I highly doubt this would even show up if I sent him off to a trainer as he wouldnt care. 

I dont think he had a problem with the one vet because he wasnt in a place or near a person that was his. There was no reason to be protective. 

The behaviorist Ive contacted does house calls so Im hoping she can see this first hand. Preferably with a pair of super thick leather and chain mesh gloves. 

Thanks for all the advice so far. I feel really perplexed, especially after passing judgement on so many others for less problematic dogs.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks, Im wondering if i encouraged the behavior with the way I did it but Im not sure there is enough safety with a lead. I am planning on getting a muzzle for him. Most people would prefer muzzle whip to a puncture wound imo. Any advice on which muzzle? I think Id prefer leather or something similarly soft so the muzzle whip hurts slightly less.


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## catfish_joe (Sep 16, 2013)

http://www.amazon.com/Medium-Muzzle-Downtown-Pet-Supply/dp/B003MRL8BI

I use one that looks like this, but there's a few different kinds. It works great for my purposes, but I don't have experience with any others. Picked one up at the local pet store


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

You have a problem. A mistake was made somewhere. Your Chessie is a timebomb. You had better get a behaviorist fast. Don't ask your trainer to recommend one to you.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

wraithen said:


> Im new to chessies but not dogs. Im not concerned with minor protective acts such as stepping between strangers and family. I could even work with a dog that was less aggressive in his approach, but tricking people so he can get a better shot at them is really unnerving.


First off, I believe you are ascribing human feelings to your dog. Your dog thinks like a dog, not a person, and did not trick you into letting him closer to your mother in law so he could have at her. Your odd body language may have helped cue the dog to believing your mother in law was a threat though.

Second, what are your expectations with this dog regarding interactions with your guests and strangers? Are you expecting him to love all over on everyone? If so, this may not be the dog for you. Chessies is are wonderful companions. Mine loves our kids and everyone we invite into our home. However, he doesn't like all strangers. But we don't require him to love all over on them either. He must be respectful, and obedient, and sit/stay at heel position. We don't let strangers reach out to touch him unless he's welcoming that physical contact. 

Honestly, its good if he greets strangers with casual indifference, while remaining at heel. Everyone is safe, and I'm being respectful of the dogs needs too.

Third, how did your trainer discipline him, and how do you and your wife and kids generally discipline him? Is it possible he's greeted strangers before and gotten burned with the collar or smacked and he now associates that punishment in that way.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Casual indifference to strangers would be excellent. That would be my preference. I knew what I was getting into in general with the breed.

He acted like he wanted contact with 2 people so far. Twice he nudged and licked someones hand and then went psycho when they moved their hand toward him. He was at sit and knew it as the command was used where he was sitting during the incident.

My trainer didnt mention having to discipline him. Im not sure what youre asking. He used ear pinch and collar for ff, collar popping and e collar for ob work. On days the dog didnt want to be a team player he was initially met with higher pressure on the ecollar. Eventually it was discovered that if he didnt want to play, nothing could make him. If the dog decides to pick a fight he gets to be by himself in his run for the day. No hup hups so to speak.

The dog interacted with other trainers and staff on a regular basis. Any unfriendliness was treated with a dismissed approach. They didnt mind if he didnt like them at first.

I have never popped him or burned him near anyone. I worked really hard for the first 7 months I had him to get everyone we encountered to give him treats. The only issue we had then was submissive urination which was cleaned up but ignored and he grew out of it. The only times Ive popped him have been for counter surfing, jumping up on me, and taps to the bottom jaw to relinquish bumpers. Other than that he gets pressure and generally it is just for ob work.

If the trainer did this I wouldnt know. He was recommended by my breeder and my breeder did pretty well nationally this year so I trust them. 

My concern is not that he hates people in the house. Its that he is unpredictable around people he doesnt like. If he were to sit and growl the entire time then fine, he doesnt like them. Sniffing and licking their hands and then turning cujo however is not ok.

I have bloodwork, a behaviorist, a muzzle, and a plan to get together. Does anyone have first hand experience with a dog that does this?


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

"Does anyone have first hand experience with a dog that does this? "
Yep, a yellow lab. Shot it. Sorry I can't be of more help but the liability in my opinion is just to great. Again, I wish you all the good luck in the world. 
Don and Crew


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm not experienced enough to give you specific advice. I hope your breeder can help you, and I second the advice to contact Sharon Potter. Between your breeder and Sharon, you ought to get a couple of names of chessie people who can help you evaluate him.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

My husband and I have had Chesapeakes for over 40 yrs. We have hunted them, field trialed and hunt tested them. We usually have two and they are house dogs. Years ago we did have a young male who had "rage" syndrome. My email is [email protected] if you want to personally correspond on the subject. My heart goes out to you, but if it is rage it is genetic and not fixable by training. In today's society, you cannot own a dog with will attack in an unprovoked manner. It is rare in CBR's but not unheard of. http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/7_6/features/Rage-Syndrome-In-Dogs_5639-1.html


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

16mt chessie, would be the age they start to feel their oats, test also when they start to feel protective of their family, and are big enough to do something about perceived threats. Still going off for no reason is not normal, there are almost always ques; you being nervous is a big que to a dog, you're wife being surrounded by strangers In a vet office is a big que. Seems from what I'm reading he doesn't like strangers approaching him or his family when it's not his idea-decision? Could be an insecurity, could be him trying to control things, could be a lot of things. Still it is not something, I'd test myself nor get advice however well meaning from someone who has not seen an episode, and Is not working with the dog. Steps 1) get a trainer familiar with aggression and chessies that can work with you. 2) if the episodes continue consider getting him neutered; could be hormonal 3) keep the dog away from strangers, realistically this is a working dog he doesn't need to love every person in the world, he also doesn't need to interact with them. Could be normal 16mt chessie behavior , could be something else, needs to be addressed; by someone who knows the breed and has worked with them a lot.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Interesting ?
So some 'experienced folk' think it's breed specific ?. 
I suppose 'cocker rage' or more specific 'Red cocker' is the same ?..Breeding they say ...


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Pat Puwal said:


> My husband and I have had Chesapeakes for over 40 yrs. We have hunted them, field trialed and hunt tested them. We usually have two and they are house dogs. Years ago we did have a young male who had "rage" syndrome. My email is [email protected] if you want to personally correspond on the subject. My heart goes out to you, but if it is rage it is genetic and not fixable by training. In today's society, you cannot own a dog with will attack in an unprovoked manner. It is rare in CBR's but not unheard of. http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/7_6/features/Rage-Syndrome-In-Dogs_5639-1.html


If this is the case, then you do have a liability on your hands as a previous poster said. Most of the time the dog is allowed one free bite, and after that you are deemed to be aware of the dog's "violent tendencies" and the risk is on you if he bites again because you should have known. You now have at least two sets of witnesses to the dog's "rage behavior", as you have described it in detail on a public internet forum, so you are now demonstrably aware of the dog's violent tendencies from a legal viewpoint. Not saying you did anything wrong or that I may not have done the same thing, but forewarned is forearmed.

FYI, you don't say where you are, but a Google search on dog bite liability and a consultation with a local attorney would probably be advisable. Your state might be like mine, with strict liability for dog bites. That is, you don't get one free one. If the person bitten is legally where they are supposed to be and did not provoke the dog, you are on the hook for the first bite. This can cause all sorts of issues with any personal liability coverage you may have, such as an umbrella policy under your homeowner's coverage, so ask your attorney about whether it helps or hurts to identify the dog to your insurance carrier.

This may not sound like a whole lot, but if this dog (God forbid) gets hold of a child (or an adult, for that matter) and causes permanent injury and disfigurement, or worse, it is a potentially ruinous situation financially for you.

Good luck with your pup. This is a tough issue to grapple with, and I hope everything works out OK.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

If I were you this not the forum to address your issue since you have no idea of the background of the people posting advice. Though if I were you I would talk to the Puwals and Potter. In addition I can't believe your trainer said light him up. An idiot! Just my opinion.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> You have a problem. A mistake was made somewhere.


The where and who will be never known and really doesn't matter. My best suggestions, like others, are to: talk with the breeder, find out about the litter mates and finally contact a local Chesapeake Rescue to help with a proper placement.

Tim


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## rockfish (Apr 19, 2011)

I had a chessie once 20 years ago and he was everything I always heard of with warnings from very experienced dog people ,it broke my heart but he wanted to kill every other dog he saw. I Had to get rid of him.


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## Steve Thornton (Oct 11, 2012)

rockfish said:


> I had a chessie once 20 years ago and he was everything I always heard of with warnings from very experienced dog people ,it broke my heart but he wanted to kill every other dog he saw. I Had to get rid of him.


There are Very experienced dog people on here and I don't believe any of them believe Chessies in general are aggressive toward other dogs.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I have bloodwork, a behaviorist, a muzzle, and a plan to get together. Does anyone have first hand experience with a dog that does this


I have dealt with quite a few. 
You say your not concerned with his indifference with people,,,if so you can find success through collar conditioning,,down ,here and no,, those are your 3 most useful control commands for an aggressive dog to be very good at. Along with that is management. With those 2 approaches,,if your diligent ,,,you'll find success 
Pete


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_""Does anyone have first hand experience with a dog that does this?" Yep, a yellow lab. Shot it. Sorry I can't be of more help but the liability in my opinion is just to great. Again, I wish you all the good luck in the world.
Don and Crew_ 

Yes, "managed" it for quite awhile (several years)...and was very efficient about containing it. During that time we trained often, earned an AKC Senior title and duck hunted each fall. During that time I did not realize how much mental energy was consumed in being "on guard" all the time. "Light switch aggression" is extremely scary. I personally got the "chills" several times (only got bit once) and finally realized the emotional energy spent "managing" the problem around my family was too much. 

Consulted with my vet often and his comment after finally making that last decision (he agreed) was "I had been anticipating this conversation for quite some time." It was not easy. At first there was instant relief laced with brief bouts of regret, but it really was the right thing to do. The only time I think about him is when reading a topic like this one.

edit: Don't wait for "the last straw'.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

rockfish said:


> I had a chessie once 20 years ago and he was everything I always heard of with warnings from very experienced dog people ,it broke my heart but he wanted to kill every other dog he saw. I Had to get rid of him.


Just love that advice rockfish...a doom and gloom scenario...

Do you have any other great advice for the OP? :-x

Edit to my post: I also believe in the Darwin awards that come out each year...


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Jim
Gunner (I think that was his name) would fall under slightly different category. The OP didn't mention his dog was handler aggressive as gunner was,,only toward strangers,it doesn't mean it won't develop in his dog but there's a chance it won't. Hard to say.
You did an awesome job with him, and gave him many good years and he taught you a thing or 2 about dog behavior. 
pete


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

So to correct the record. I misinterpreted what my trainer told me. He didnt mean to indicate to me to light the dog up. He also did not say he had never known any chessies that were people aggressive, only that he never personally had any. Seems that like everyone else, its hard to read this without seeing it in person. I was hoping for that first hand fix. Anyone got Victorias number?

My father will be visiting later this week so hopefully I can experiment in a way that communicates people allowed in the house are not to be attacked. Im going to meet my father outside and hand him some treats and then leash the dog. I will have him ring the doorbell and then I will open the door to allow him to come in. Ill keep my dog in a sit on lead and have my father toss him a treat. When the dog appears calm and eats the treat I will have him take a step and toss another treat. Im hoping to get the dog calm enough to take a treat from his hand. The end goal is only that far at this point. The dog will then be praised and crated for the remainder of the visit. I dont want to push the envelope. Knowing him though he will know hes on film and be pleasant the entire time. (Yes I realize this is exaggeration in the form of personification , but I have the same problem with annoying things my truck does unless its at the shop at which point the problem disappears.)

On the trainer thing I guess I played the telephone game in my head and mixed up the message. My apologies for the confusion.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

16mt chessie, would be the age they start to feel their oats, test also when they start to feel protective of their family, and are big enough to do something about perceived threats. Still going off for no reason is not normal, there are almost always ques; you being nervous is a big que to a dog, you're wife being surrounded by strangers In a vet office is a big que. Seems from what I'm reading he doesn't like strangers approaching him or his family when it's not his idea-decision? Could be an insecurity, could be him trying to control things, could be a lot of things.*

This is exactly my current line of thought. Im thinking he was appearing relaxed to me due to my position but he had enough que to have the mil draw her hand away. Im thinking im missing the que that he hives tight before he attacks.

To everyone talking about the legal side of that I get it, but my bond with this dog is strong. As I said earlier, he would have to do SOMEthing aggressive with my family or someone he hasnt shown he hates before I would consider it, and it would go quickly from a co sideration to a deep woods, short, one way conversation.

And finally, in regards to the placing him in a proper home, if I cant get this fixed, a rescue is a worse option for him than a needle. I used to think like you, I really thought that some people should just not own anything but jack russell terriers. I think baby steps and go back through a strict socialization will fix this. Thanks for all the input guys. Ill keep everyone posted on my successes or periods of brief setback.

Pat you will have an email soon. Thanks as I can not pm yet.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

wraithen said:


> So to correct the record. I misinterpreted what my trainer told me. He didnt mean to indicate to me to light the dog up. He also did not say he had never known any chessies that were people aggressive, only that he never personally had any. Seems that like everyone else, its hard to read this without seeing it in person. I was hoping for that first hand fix. Anyone got Victorias number?
> 
> My father will be visiting later this week so hopefully I can experiment in a way that communicates people allowed in the house are not to be attacked. Im going to meet my father outside and hand him some treats and then leash the dog. I will have him ring the doorbell and then I will open the door to allow him to come in. Ill keep my dog in a sit on lead and have my father toss him a treat. When the dog appears calm and eats the treat I will have him take a step and toss another treat. Im hoping to get the dog calm enough to take a treat from his hand. The end goal is only that far at this point. The dog will then be praised and crated for the remainder of the visit. I dont want to push the envelope. Knowing him though he will know hes on film and be pleasant the entire time. (Yes I realize this is exaggeration in the form of personification , but I have the same problem with annoying things my truck does unless its at the shop at which point the problem disappears.)
> 
> On the trainer thing I guess I played the telephone game in my head and mixed up the message. My apologies for the confusion.


Oh Lord...Please don't this. 

You had an agenda to go forth and seek help from those who have been through this many many times. 
Please trust those folks who have the experience to help you.
Don't experiment....pleassssssssssse!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

My read on this, based on what you've said, is that your young Chessie feels the need to be in charge because you and your family are not. You may think you are because he "likes" you....but I've seen this quite a bit. He feels the need to defend because he doesn't have faith in you to be in charge. He's at just the right age to feel that way.

Please don't use your father as a "crash test dummy". Bad idea. And muzzles have a tendency to put dogs on the defensive at first because they feel cornered and defenseless, so I'd be cautious with that as well.

Where do you live? 

I've seen exactly two cases of real "rage" in all the dogs I've dealt with (and I see a LOT of problem dogs), and this doesn't sound like it. I'd be glad to help you out....and rescue is a far better option than a needle. There are experienced people there who can evaluate and work with the dog before placing it. A dog you can't trust/control is a liability. 

If you want to PM me or email me at: [email protected] , I'll do what I can to help.


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## Joyce (May 31, 2004)

You need to take Sharon up on her offer. She is spot on what she's telling you. Your dog is a time bomb if he continues on the path he's on. We've had chesapeakes since 1987'
. She's very accurate when she told you he's running the show. 
Please call her and let her help!


Joyce
 BLACKWATER Chesapeakes


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Please listen to Joyce and Sharon. Tim Carrion Mr. Chessie also gave you good advice.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I think first of all ,,you need to take rage syndrome off the table,,,in my career working with aggressive dogs only 4 of them were dignosed "rage " by a behaviorist with a phd. All 4 were diagnosed incorrectly except may be one,,but even that one turned out to be controllable and very predictable.It was an odd ball case. Aggression started after vigorous digging whether their were people present or not. Stopping the digging stopped the aggression. Idiopathic aggression is not predictable. Your dog is highly predictable. and most likely unstable meaning it will jump in and out of opposing behaviors. 
For right now you know what he is prone to doing,,so stay way from those triggers. You do not have to condition with in these triggers responses to be successful. By having strangers toss him hot dogs ,,this technique has back fired many times. Making the animals triggers possible more sensitive. It all depends on the state of mind and what really is the problem with your dog. 
Others are correct in that many handler errors were made. Grabbing the collar,sticking the dog between your legs,,strangers reaching toward him,,ect. My advice is to find a trainer that has worked ,trained,and had success with aggressive dogs of many many breeds. You problem is not breed specific. , however certain breeds serve different challenges with the same problem because of genetic make up.

Pete


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

As Pete said...and he is spot on....don't try to use treats from strangers to fix this. That usually ends up turning into a "growl/bite for cookies" exchange and rewards the undesired behavior. You need a pro who has dealt with this stuff and is experienced.

I see you're in Kansas. If your breeder is also from Kansas, I'm guessing I know who it is and actually have one of their dogs, and have been around many dogs from there. All I've seen have had wonderful, very friendly dispositions and are really nice dogs.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

wraithen said:


> To everyone talking about the legal side of that I get it, but my bond with this dog is strong. As I said earlier, he would have to do SOMEthing aggressive with my family or someone he hasnt shown he hates before I would consider it, and it would go quickly from a co sideration to a deep woods, short, one way conversation.


Understood about the bond, and I am not suggesting that you immediately put the dog down. If your bond is as strong as you describe, and I have no doubt it is, then you desperately need to get this dog to someone who knows a whole lot more about what is going on than you do and give the dog a chance to be fixed. Note that I would be in exactly the same situation with this dog, and I hope I would have the courage to take advantage of some of the offers of help that have been made on this forum. 

I am not trying to get on you here, but if you had a dog that was breaking, for example, and you couldn't figure out what was causing it or how to stop it, you would certainly seek out the advice of your professional trainer (as you already did) because he knows more than you, has more experience than you, and can help you diagnose and fix your problem. Why is this any different other than you being afraid of one possible answer?

From the paranoid lawyer's perspective, your reply above also seems to assume that you will always be around and able to stop the dog from carrying through with one of his threats. Please think carefully about what would happen if you are not there or you are not able to stop it, Murphy's Law being what it is, and now you have an injured person, you are facing thousands of dollars in medical bills that your liability insurance may not cover, AND you have a dog that has to be destroyed. 

The dog loses in all scenarios except getting him to somebody with the knowledge and experience to diagnose and deal with the problem you are having.

Good luck with this dog.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

You still haven't mentioned who the dog's breeder is, but you really ought to get them involved in this. I highly recommend you work with Sharon: having someone relatively close who is both a respected trainer of multiple breeds and experienced in Chesapeakes and who has offered to help you is too valuable to pass up.

I will add that in my own limited experiences, treat training works well with balanced dogs who are simply learning to do things for fun, or with a better i.e. "happier" attitude. Treats don't work on unbalanced dogs with serious behavior issues.


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## Maddog10 (Feb 8, 2013)

I sympathize with your situation, but I can't really relate or give any advice. I'd suggest following those on here encouraging you to seek professional help, and I'd try to give the dog a chance to change before taking any extreme measures. With that said, it would take a long time of good behavior for me to trust a dog that has shown this type of behavior in the past, and honestly I can't say for sure that I'd ever completely trust him.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

steve,

thanks for reminding everyone here about the responsibilities of ownership.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Sounds like another Chessie who comes home from the structure, routine and discipline of a full time training environment to a overly loving home at just the right age to cause problems. In the dogs mind, he probably just got a big promotion from pee-on to President and is in the process of rolling out his own form of universal pack care. Chessies aren't for everyone!


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

RetrieverNation said:


> Sounds like another Chessie who comes home from the structure, routine and discipline of a full time training environment to a overly loving home at just the right age to cause problems. In the dogs mind, he probably just got a big promotion from pee-on to President and is in the process of rolling out his own form of universal pack care. Chessies aren't for everyone!


Kind of what I was thinking.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RetrieverNation said:


> Sounds like another Chessie who comes home from the structure, routine and discipline of a full time training environment to a overly loving home at just the right age to cause problems. In the dogs mind, he probably just got a big promotion from pee-on to President and is in the process of rolling out his own form of universal pack care. Chessies aren't for everyone!


We all know Chessies are different and all, but doesn't this case seem a bit extreme even taking that into consideration?


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Behaviorist will be at my house saturday so I will have the initial evaluation done that evening. Im not disregarding that aspect.

If you read most of my posts, I do not honestly think he has rage. It doesnt present that way at all. Hence why I said it was tongue in cheek. 
Sharon, your experiences mirror what everyone has said, and thats why I got my dog there amongst about 50 other reasons. If you dont mind, Ill email you what the behaviorist says and include a video. I had a conversation with the breeder and she is really not happy with the entire situation with my dog and none of us understand quite whats going on other than his current maturity possibly.

And this dog has rules and understands his place in our house. He may get more attention but he also has rules that are enforced if they are broken. 

Pam I will not state who the breeder or trainer are. They are both completely up to date with this situation and will remain that way. There would have to be serious malpractice issues for me to blast their association with my dog, especially when this could be a situation where he does what he thinks is right, or is lacking confidence, etc. If they would like to interject themselves into this then they probably will, but based on some of the responses I dont see a reason for them to do so.

None of this was directed at anyone specific except where names were specified.

I will not try a treat with my fathers visit, but he will film meeting the dog. If for no other reason than that was requested by several people and in case he decides the behaviorist is cool. Should I just have him at a sit on lead next to me in the house? Should I attempt to allow him to do what he decides while on lead? Any ideas?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Ask the behaviorist what to do with the dog before/when she arrives at your house. Good luck. Hopefully it is simply an age thing.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I completely understand keeping the name of the breeder and trainer private, I would too. Was just wondering if you had spoken to them and/or working with them on the problem: very glad to hear they are involved. It sounds like you are doing the best you can to solve the problem by reaching out to the proper people and being willing to spend yet more money on a behaviorist. I hope it all works out and that you eventually post about what worked.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

I knew a fellow who had a 5 year old Chessie male that he had lots of memorable hunts with. The dog liked him and his one daughter and only tolerated the other two daughters and his wife. The dog killed the neighbors poodle and bit his sister at a family get together. He asked for my advice and I told him that he had two choices that the dog was never let out of an outdoor kennel unless he or the one daughter did so and that the dog always had the e-collar on him when he was turned loose or that the dog should be put down because he was a liability. The owner sadly put the dog down. If these kinds of dogs are salvageable it would take a person that teaches the dog to be extremely obedient and who is observant enough to recognize and prevent bad incidents.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

The dog isnt dog aggressive. Could care less about them except to play. He plays rough but he doesnt cause any damage during his play. He does not get that type of play with people. If I can not get this issue completely resolved then he will never be allowed unsupervised time without myself or my wife. As long as he is displaying the loyalty he will recieve mine


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Something to consider in addition to all the previous great advice, and please don't hate me for saying this, is getting him neutered. While I'm not generally a proponent of spaying/neutering, I have seen it work with a young male dog I owned that had some aggressive tendencies. If all health tests come back negative and the experts can't get it under control, it might be worth a try. Best of luck!


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

This dog should definitely be neutered . You have asked for a lot of advice but you always knew what you were going to do.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

wraithen said:


> I have an email in to a behaviorist. Its sunday so Im not too hopeful for a quick response. Everyone says this isnt very uncommon for a chessie, and I knew there would be battles at this age. Im just surprised with all this first hand information nobody has fixed this themselves. Did everyone have to send the dog away to a trainer for this behavior?


"Everyone says this isn't very uncommon for a chessie". Not sure who "everyone" is, but I wouldn't listen to a word those people say. Good luck.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> He feels the need to defend because he doesn't have faith in you to be in charge.


I must say this is pretty insightful, though whether it applies in this instance, I have no idea. However, all my dogs have been house dogs, and I've generally lived with a wife or girlfriend. The more protective the dog, the greater the disparity in how they responded to guests or strangers when I was there and when I was not. When I was there,the more protective dogs watched me quietly (or sometimes slept), figuring I was in charge. When i was not (my information is second hand), they watched the stranger or guest with a fixed gaze, frequently got between the woman and the stranger or guest and never slept. 

Beyond birds and competition, I'm an obedience guy,so my dogs are always controlled and socialized. But in my absence, the tougher ones figured they were in charge.

Insightful observation.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Andy, that comment was mostly a subtle backhand. Picture quotes around the word firsthand. Many people heard about a chessie from a friend that saw a bad one at that one place...

As much as it feels like an insult, I did take the quoted portion by Sharon to heart. I just am not sure how to communicate that with him. Honestly I'm not even sure how to proof such an idea in a productive way. 

My mind wasn't made up before I posted. I went back and forth a lot with my decisions. I knew I'd be getting judgement and I accepted this. I also hoped there was an easier for me answer. Instant gratification was not exactly something I didn't hold out a tiny bit of hope for. (In regards to a plan to fix this.)

I have asked the behaviorist how to have the dog when they get here. My plan is to do exactly the same when my father visits for the video. The behaviorist will bring along another person for the consult in order to ensure that any que is picked up on. This is pretty much going to guarantee a reaction. 

Dudes been neutered already. I never planned to have him breed so I got that and a gastropexy at the same time.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

wraithen said:


> As much as it feels like an insult, I did take the quoted portion by Sharon to heart. I just am not sure how to communicate that with him. Honestly I'm not even sure how to proof such an idea in a productive way.


 No insult intended.  There's really no way I can effectively communicate this in writing....gotta be able to see and read the dog and the situation. What I can say is that often in these situations, the dog looks at its people more like servants than bosses or equals, and does whatever will get it what it wants....which often means responding to commands when it suits them and earns something. 

The people usually are thinking their dog loves them, when in reality the dog is (in dog language/behavior, not human) using them and running the show. Again, no offense intended.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

No offense was taken Sharon, I just choked a little on my pride as it was going down.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

It's an animal. Remember that as you keep risking other humans safety.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

This is not to replace any information that you've received from the knowledgeable folks on the subject.

But here is something to think about: Every person who comes in contact with your dog, in my opinion, should be told to IGNORE THE DOG. 

They need to imagine the dog is a rock or a tree. Don't have them look at the dog, don't have them talk to the dog, don't have them give the dog a treat. Nothing..... This does not replace any of the other suggestions.

As Sharon mentioned, don't use anyone as a crash test dummy. I'm fairly confident that your dog will probably walk up and sniff folks and not mess with them if those folks mind their own business and don't look at him, talk to him, reach for him, make kissy noises....etc. Have all folks that come around him, IGNORE him.

As an example, when your mother in law was at the house on the couch, you had a golden opportunity to have your dog on lead, under control, at a distance away from her. You had a golden opportunity to talk for a long time, and let the dog get used to this person in the house. The mistake is to FORCE interaction. You need to enforce that your guests are to act as if they see no dog. 

Don't "test" the dog. Don't see if "maybe it's time" to let the dog go sniff this person. Keep him under control and treat him fairly. 

Work on your obedience in private sessions with little distraction. Make sure his down, here, sit, stay are impeccable. Get those obedience responses proofed with gradual increases in distraction levels.

Now when a guest is in the family room on the couch, you have the tools to have your dog in the same room at a safe distance, and you can again, reinforce your obedience commands.

There is NOTHING to be gained by trying to push your dog through this and make him interact with people. 

If your goal is his indifference to guests, then set up a situation where indifference is likely to happen. 

Crate him when he's not supervised and under control.

Good luck and I feel for you and what you're going through.... Like Rosana said - "It's always something."

Chris


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## Rodger Williams (Mar 9, 2005)

After being bit by a Chesapeake while petting it, I won't ever get near one again. I want to keep all of my fingers.


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This is not to replace any information that you've received from the knowledgeable folks on the subject.
> 
> But here is something to think about: Every person who comes in contact with your dog, in my opinion, should be told to IGNORE THE DOG.
> 
> ...


No every person should be "Warned" of the dog. Its an animal not a human being.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Excellent post Chris,,,first rules of dealing with aggression,,,don't look,don't touch don't talk to the dog,,,slip it in if or when the dog is ready. It might turn out that this will be a life long rule,,,if so no biggy. The OP doesn't mind if dog is not friendly to strangers. 
PS Kansasclipper,,,,you misunderstood waht Chris is saying

Pete


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

I will definitely try that with my father. That was my plan after the behaviorist to me to just do whatever I normally do with the dog. I will have him on lead and have my father ignore him minus the fact that there will be an invisible bubble he avoids.

Something just dawned on me and I cant believe I didnt realiaze it earlier.If my wife is in the same space the dog hates anyone near her no matter the location. When it was just me in my truck, dog didnt have any issues. Im wondering of it would be the same in my house. I have a sneaking suspicion he will bark but not be nearly as agitated with my wife gone.

KSClipper, the ignoring part I believe prevents unintentional triggers or challenges. No eye contact, not moving directly towards or away from the dog, etc.

My dog has moved one step farther than most. He has shown very little discomfort with attempting to bite someone. My wife once met a wirehaired griffon who was trained for military bitework. Not comparing this to my dog, merely noting that being fine biting someone isnt always trained into dogs. I get it, you guys would never own such a dog. I will because that is what I have. Im starting to get more confident this is something I can address with the help of the behaviorists and some training. If not then it is a huge liability I am willing to live with. If it gets worse then I will re evaluate it.

As long as my dog ignores people he doesnt like, and doesnt go on the offensive I wouldnt have a single problem with it. If he hrowls when they come near and then walks to his crate, I wouldnt have a problem with it. Anything else will be fixed, under my ownership, and Im confident that is possible, especially with what my new theory is based on his attacks. The only wildcard now is the presence of my daughter. I dont know if she ups the ante or not but my wife seems like surely she does. 

Her background is very good with dogs. She and 1 other tech and 1 vet are the three people that handle aggressive dogs in her clinic. All others cant keep dominance in aggressive mwd's enough to get anything done. It could be her small size, or the fact that she is less in charge with him than I am. He listens better to me. He will obey her, but he takes longer to do it. 

Im hoping I atill get some reaction when my father visits but Im starting to doubt it will be as explosive.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Your last sentence is not consistent with the plan. Your goal is to have indifference with a guest. Why would you hope for a reaction?

If the goal is indifference then push the hope for a reaction out of your mind.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

wraithen said:


> As much as it feels like an insult, I did take the quoted portion by Sharon to heart. I just am not sure how to communicate that with him. Honestly I'm not even sure how to proof such an idea in a productive way.


There is a whole lot to be said for serious AKC novice-level obedience work, not just sit, down and come. Chris Atklnson has partially alluded to this,though i think he's short-cut the exercises. How much on-lead work do you do with him? I realize you just got him back from a field trainer, but ten minutes of work twice-a-day, seven days a week, would put your relationship on a whole different level. You can cut back to once-a-day after a few months. Hopefully,you can find a good competition-oriented class or instructor. You have too much dog for soft-minded pet or "positive-only training" people.

Put a CD on your dog and see what it does for both of you. There is more being a dog trainer -- and having a trained dog -- than just field work.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Just a thought about the dog "protecting" your wife: He's likely looking at her as his possession or property. Don't confuse that with defending her.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Rodger Williams said:


> After being bit by a Chesapeake while petting it, I won't ever get near one again. I want to keep all of my fingers.


Despite the reputation as protective dogs, Chessie's are not by nature aggressive. The "rage" issue with the OP's dog is an extreme case IMO, one that the OP recognizes and is doing his best to deal with. Sorry you were bit by some random Chessie, could have been any breed, I wouldn't condemn the whole breed based on that one incident.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> Despite the reputation as protective dogs, Chessie's are not by nature aggressive. The "rage" issue with the OP's dog is an extreme case IMO, one that the OP recognizes and is doing his best to deal with. Sorry you were bit by some random Chessie, could have been any breed, I wouldn't condemn the whole breed based on that one incident.


This. I currently have 18 Chesapeakes in my kennels between client dogs and my own, and the worst you can expect is to be licked to death. I've been bitten once, and it was by a Viszla, but I'm not condemning the breed because of it. I've been snapped at by a Golden and by a GWP (and they missed me because I saw it coming), but it's not the breed's fault.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> This. I currently have 18 Chesapeakes in my kennels between client dogs and my own, and the worst you can expect is to be licked to death. I've been bitten once, and it was by a Viszla, but I'm not condemning the breed because of it. I've been snapped at by a Golden and by a GWP (*and they missed me because I saw it coming*), but it's not the breed's fault.


Not putting down Roger Williams, but in general most of us who have been around dogs develop good dog sense which includes that ability "to see it coming". I'm comfortable walking up to any dog from Poodles to Pit Bulls, read the dog and probably put my hand out for a sniff and a pet. By far the most sketchy are the little lap dogs, they are small and defensive, but I can usually even win them over. The out of the blue aggressive attack is very rare, but it happens.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Your last sentence is not consistent with the plan. Your goal is to have indifference with a guest. Why would you hope for a reaction?
> 
> If the goal is indifference then push the hope for a reaction out of your mind.


Chris, I just meant that I want to be able to work on this but you are right. My wife will be gone for then next 6 weeks and my daughter will be gone for 3. No reaction would be amazing but it would not help to have a behaviorist have no evidence of my problem. I want to address this as soon as possible so Im torn and my post refelcts that


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

wraithen said:


> Chris, I just meant that I want to be able to work on this but you are right. My wife will be gone for then next 6 weeks and my daughter will be gone for 3. No reaction would be amazing but it would not help to have a behaviorist have no evidence of my problem. I want to address this as soon as possible so Im torn and my post refelcts that


Totally, it's like taking your truck to the mechanic with a sporadic problem and you can't get the truck to do it and get diagnosed. If your dog doesn't react to the trainer like he did your wife, that doesn't mean there is no problem.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Sharon Potter said:


> Just a thought about the dog "protecting" your wife: He's likely looking at her as his possession or property. Don't confuse that with defending her.


You took the words right from my brain. Discussed it with the breeder and we think it could be a weird dynamic where I own him, but we own the rest of the house. Still not sure where that puts him in regards to him not trusting me to act appropriately in the situation where he went for my mil, but it very well could be a trust issue. Seems like this problem may be weird but fixable.

On a strange side note my faith in my breeder is getting extremely strong. They said the dog will have a standing replacement offer if this situation ends in a needle. They dont accept responsibility but it seems they dont necessarily believe Ive done something to ruin the dog. I will probably not want another dog for years if it comes to that but the fact that they brought it up really took me by surprise.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

wraithen said:


> No reaction would be amazing but it would not help to have a behaviorist have no evidence of my problem.


Don't worry about that if the behaviorist is worth their salt they'll be able to read the dog and be able to see the tendency even without an altercation. Will probably do quite a few situational tests, push some buttons, etc. It's their job after all. Still I'd be pretty surprised if there were a random issue with the behaviorists, most likely the dog will read their energy and know this is not a person to mess with; probably much like your pro trainers energy, and why he hasn't seen any incidence of this issue, because when the dog is with him there isn't one.


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

Pat Puwal said:


> My husband and I have had Chesapeakes for over 40 yrs. We have hunted them, field trialed and hunt tested them. We usually have two and they are house dogs. Years ago we did have a young male who had "rage" syndrome. My email is [email protected] if you want to personally correspond on the subject. My heart goes out to you, but if it is rage it is genetic and not fixable by training. In today's society, you cannot own a dog with will attack in an unprovoked manner. It is rare in CBR's but not unheard of. http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/7_6/features/Rage-Syndrome-In-Dogs_5639-1.html


Pat I was trying to think how to say what you said. Having owned 6 Chessie's, I unfortunately had a rage dog, 2nd Chessie. I kept that dog because he was a good working dog, never let him get into a situation that I could not control. I do not believe even a dog whisperer can solve this problem.
I had a client who had a rage lab, you could never trust this dog. Like Wraithen's trainer I never saw that behavior while the dog was in training, but I did see dog on dog aggression. The owner tried to control the situation, but the final straw came when the dog, while on a retrieve, ran across the shallow pond and bit a hunter in the next biind that was out retrieving a duck. Owner put the dog down that day.


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

Doing hunt tests for the last four years I've come across some pretty nice Chessies but my first experience with one years ago was awful. 

A hunting buddy was given one that he became very attached to. The first time we went out together with our dogs he attacked my sleeping male lab with no warning. My buddy is a really good guy but he had a blind spot when it came to that dog. Pretty soon none of his hunting friends would go anywhere with that dog. He wasn't people aggressive but he would attack ANY dog.


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## riskyriver (Feb 23, 2010)

To the OP - you have gotten some good advice from Sharon, Pete, Chris and others. I hope the behaviorist is able to help and that you can come up with a plan. I concur with those that suggested you get on DAILY sessions of on-leash OB. This is not just about training, but about daily reinforcing to the dog that you are the boss. Other family members should also be involved as this dog needs to respect (not protect!) all of you. I admire your commitment to your dog. Best of luck and I hope you will let us know how it is going.

To those that 'suggested' this dog go to a rescue group - rescue is NOT an option for a dog with aggression issues! The average rescue volunteer does not have the experience, resources or time to re-hab a dog like this, and it presents a huge liability issue for them. Most rescue groups DO NOT accept dogs w/ a bite history.

Diane (30 years of owning Chessies, 15 + years of rescuing them)


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

wraithen said:


> I will because that is what I have. Im starting to get more confident this is something I can address with the help of the behaviorists and some training. If not then it is a huge liability I am willing to live with. If it gets worse then I will re evaluate it.


thats exactly what another dog owner thought prior to when his dog decided to bite my buddy's 2 year old daughter in the face. You are risking other people's safety, whether they themselves accept that risk of not. There are so many good dogs out there, it is never worth having one that is even questionable. Behavior therapy will minimize risk, not get rid of it.

if it gets worse? The next step is biting someone. You want to wait and risk your daughter or anyone else's safety all for a dog?


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

riskyriver said:


> To those that 'suggested' this dog go to a rescue group - rescue is NOT an option for a dog with aggression issues! The average rescue volunteer does not have the experience, resources or time to re-hab a dog like this, and it presents a huge liability issue for them. Most rescue groups DO NOT accept dogs w/ a bite history.
> 
> Diane (30 years of owning Chessies, 15 + years of rescuing them)


Exactly. Rescue is not an option. That's just flicking a booger off on someone else, and allowing them to accept liability just to make you feel better. There are enough good dogs out there, it's never worth risking safety over a bad dog. Put it down, get a new one. It's an animal.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Arnie said:


> Doing hunt tests for the last four years I've come across some pretty nice Chessies but my first experience with one years ago was awful.
> 
> A hunting buddy was given one that he became very attached to. The first time we went out together with our dogs he attacked my sleeping male lab with no warning. My buddy is a really good guy but he had a blind spot when it came to that dog. Pretty soon none of his hunting friends would go anywhere with that dog. He wasn't people aggressive but he would attack ANY dog.


If we were having a thread on dog vs dog aggression I'm sure we all have anecdotal stories. I know of one Golden and three Labs that are just as you describe that Chessie. For whatever reason it happens, some small percentage of each breed has aggression issues. If that dog happens to be a Chessie the breed gets condemned for a couple reasons, 1) Chessies are relatively rare compared to Labs and Golden's, so that may be the first Chessie the person has seen in his life. 2) They come with a loner, one man reputation, they are not the happy go lucky love all humans, dog that the general Lab or Golden is, but that doesn't mean they are mean nasty dogs.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

riskyriver said:


> To the OP - you have gotten some good advice from Sharon, Pete, Chris and others. I hope the behaviorist is able to help and that you can come up with a plan. I concur with those that suggested you get on DAILY sessions of on-leash OB. This is not just about training, but about daily reinforcing to the dog that you are the boss. Other family members should also be involved as this dog needs to respect (not protect!) all of you. I admire your commitment to your dog. Best of luck and I hope you will let us know how it is going.
> 
> To those that 'suggested' this dog go to a rescue group - rescue is NOT an option for a dog with aggression issues! The average rescue volunteer does not have the experience, resources or time to re-hab a dog like this, and it presents a huge liability issue for them. Most rescue groups DO NOT accept dogs w/ a bite history.
> 
> Diane (30 years of owning Chessies, 15 + years of rescuing them)


Mazy, is that you? You broke cover with that last line.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I have to give the OP credit for recognizing a serious problem, pouring his heart out and going to lengths in finding a solution. He also admits there might not be a practical solution and seem prepared to deal with that. One more thing, he describes in detail the episodes that led to this discussion, yet I didn't read where the dog actually bit anyone, kudos to him for heading that off, I know a lot of people would have been slower at the switch and been too late to prevent a more serious injury.


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## riskyriver (Feb 23, 2010)

John Robinson said:


> Mazy, is that you? You broke cover with that last line.


Yea it's me...busted<g>. Hope you are doing well John, and getting some hunting done!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

riskyriver said:


> Yea it's me...busted<g>. Hope you are doing well John, and getting some hunting done!


Good to hear from you. Things are good here, just heading over to the east side for a few days to hunt. See you in the spring or winter if you go south this year.


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

quacksnracks said:


> thats exactly what another dog owner thought prior to when his dog decided to bite my buddy's 2 year old daughter in the face. You are risking other people's safety, whether they themselves accept that risk of not. There are so many good dogs out there, it is never worth having one that is even questionable. Behavior therapy will minimize risk, not get rid of it.
> 
> if it gets worse? The next step is biting someone. You want to wait and risk your daughter or anyone else's safety all for a dog?


Great reply.
After being around 100's of dogs, one thing I would bet the farm on, this dog is going to bite someone again, if you do not keep it away from people, other than your family. I would never trust this dog even if the Pope blesses it. This dog has set you up for a big fat lawsuit. This dog does not need to be put down, but you need to be a responsible owner, you have a dog that now has a history of agressive behavior towards people.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gordy Weigel said:


> Great reply.
> After being around 100's of dogs, one thing I would bet the farm on, this dog is going to bite someone again, if you do not keep it away from people, other than your family. I would never trust this dog even if the Pope blesses it. This dog has set you up for a big fat lawsuit. This dog does not need to be put down, but you need to be a responsible owner, you have a dog that now has a history of agressive behavior towards people.


Did the dog bite someone? From the sounds of it, it would have but for the OP recognizing the signals and intervening, so your greater point is true and valid. I think the guy is being very responsible from what I've read of his post.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Dogs never bit anyone or anything but kibble and what food he steals from the counter. Had he bit someone he would still be in quarentine and this conversation would probably never have begun. 

We are at a high concern point for this dog, but we havent crossed the threshold that some think we have.

Thank you John for the support. And for all the other help Ive been given. Ill post what happens thursday and what is discovered saturday for informative reasons and hope we can go from there to a good outcome.


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## DA6536 (May 10, 2015)

Norwester said:


> Your dog is protective. You and your wife are cueing the dog to act in an aggressive manner or in the dogs mind, protective.
> Think about how you handled the dog when your hunting buddy arrived as compared to how you handled him when your inlaws were involved.
> The encounter with your hunting buddy read as being business as usual....whereas with your inlaws you inadvertently put your dog on high alert, holding him between your legs, firm grip on his collar....and I'm guessing you were quite apprehensive during this and the dog picked up on it and acted out in a protective nature.
> I'm also guessing something similar happened with your wife at her work....you mention the one vet who had no trouble handling the dog, it read as though your wife was not in contact with the dog at the time, that's likely not a coincidence.


This is what i was thinking too!!!


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

wraithen said:


> Dogs never bit anyone.


Every dog has never bitten somebody at some point in there life. Only difference is, some eventually do. Yours is headed towards that category. 

A behavioral specialist will mitigate risk, but never do away with it. It amazes me that there is even a question at all. It's an aggressive dog. Get a new one. It's a dog.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

wraithen said:


> Does anyone have first hand experience with a dog that does this?


I do. He's a black lab (6 yrs now) who displayed aggression to both human and dog from 4 months old; tt didn't escalate until 10-12 mos. It has been and continues to be a managed (ALWAYS) situation. In 6 years I still would not trust him with a strange dog or person without my presence; however, we train every day and he gets a lot of exercise and stimulation to work out his aggression. I compete in pedestrian sports with him (but it's always a liability), why I am able to do this is because, 1) I know his triggers, 2) I can anticipate and thwart them before they become a problem, 3) he has a strong work ethic, and 4) I train and train and train. 

Lots of good advice given in this thread; you may or may not have a dog with true aggression, but if you do are you willing to put the time it takes to managing him to take him out in public? That's what you will have to decide. If not, then he'll either be a house dog that gets put away when you have people over or you will have to consider rehoming him. My eyes are on my dog 24/7 and I have to always make certain he is always secure and people cannot touch him in anyway. But it can be done if you're willing to put in the time. One of the best pieces of advice I can give, is stop trying to make your dog like everyone and try not to push him to get where you think he needs to be before you have put in enough training. And most importantly (and in my opinion) I would not send him to any type of in house board training. A dog like this needs to be trained by the person who will be handling him. You need to be there every step of the way observing your dog and doing any kind of disciplining and/or correction. Leaving it to someone else - you never know what they will do no matter how much you trust or believe in their ability. That's my two cents from someone who has a sharp dog. Oh, and lastly, there are 100 ways to train a dog - do not think because he's a lab you need to stick to field training techniques; your dog may need a whole different set of tools to work with.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

Good post, enzos mom. What kind of "pedestrian sports" do you do with him?


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

steveMO said:


> Good post, enzos mom. What kind of "pedestrian sports" do you do with him?


We competitively run in agility, rally, and nosework. We also do dock diving and bite work (for control under high arousal). We did field work to and he "won" his first super singles, but at the time we were field training his aggression was in high gear and his hard mouth cost us passes for JH title. All was pretty up until he had to come up near the judges and hand me the bird - he self reinforced his bite. It was awful . So I stepped back to work on obedience and foundation. I know he misses the field work though.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

Enzos Mom said:


> We competitively run in agility, rally, and nosework. We also do dock diving and bite work (for control under high arousal). We did field work to and he "won" his first super singles, but at the time we were field training his aggression was in high gear and his hard mouth cost us passes for JH title. All was pretty up until he had to come up near the judges and hand me the bird - he self reinforced his bite. It was awful . So I stepped back to work on obedience and foundation. I know he misses the field work though.


There is a lot more to dogs than field work. You are lucky to have each other.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pat I was trying to think how to say what you said. Having owned 6 Chessie's, *that doI unfortunately had a rage dog, 2nd Chessie. I kept g because he was a good working dog, never let him get into a situation that I could not control. I do not believe even a dog whisperer *can solve this problem.
> I had a client who had a rage lab, you could never trust this dog. Like Wraithen's trainer I never saw that behavior while the dog was in training, but I did see dog on dog aggression. The owner tried to control the situation, but the final straw came when the dog, while on a retrieve, ran across the shallow pond and bit a hunter in the next biind that was out retrieving a duck. Owner put the dog down that day.


If you could control his aggression then it wasn't "rage" No more than you can control an epileptic seizure ,,, rage is idiopathic in nature.
Just to keep the terminology straight. Its very rare and can occur where there are no other people or animals around.
Also I need to add that most aggressive dogs are happy and pleasant to be around 95 percent of the time. 
If you put down all the dogs that have growled at other dogs or people there wouldn't be to many dogs left to go around. 

Lots of aggressive dogs make absolutely wonderful ,safe family dogs. A little management and some discipline go a long ways ,,and is no more of a liability than a gun in the house with young children around. Some people are responsible and some aren't
Pete


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

wraithen said:


> As a pup my chessie had gone everywhere with me and my family. Home depot, dog parks, fun runs, all kinds of stuff. He liked everything except car rides. *Loved people.*
> So,there were no aggression issues with people
> I sent him to a trainer for 6 months and brought him home. *He came back like he never left. *
> That's not strictly true according to the previous statement
> ...


I wouldn't even attempt to give any advice on how to fix it and some of the advice already given I'm sure is reassuring. I just picked out some points in your original post that may highlight a few things to help resolve the issues. I hope the visit with the behaviourist can give you and your family some answers first HAND.


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

Gordy Weigel said:


> Great reply.
> After being around 100's of dogs, one thing I would bet the farm on, this dog is going to bite someone again, if you do not keep it away from people, other than your family. I would never trust this dog even if the Pope blesses it. This dog has set you up for a big fat lawsuit. This dog does not need to be put down, but you need to be a responsible owner, you have a dog that now has a history of agressive behavior towards people.


We had problems with our neighbors dog a few years ago. It would charge at us viciously when we were outside. They would say "he is all talk" or just pass it off. I told them that I would shoot the dog if it ever attacked me or my family or if I ever felt that it was presenting a threat to us. It made things difficult between us to say the least, what made it worse was that the neighbor lady, my wife, and myself all were teachers in the same building. It got to the point where we did not even speak in the halls. Well one day one of our students was the paper boy and the dog charged and attacked him. The neighbors did nothing to the dog. Then I did not see the dog for a couple of weeks. One of the other teachers told me that the dog bit someone in their own household and that they finally put the dog to sleep. Life is to short to mess around with a bad dog. Some of them simply have no place in this world. This risk of owning an aggressive dog is one that I would never take.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

steveMO said:


> There is a lot more to dogs than field work. You are lucky to have each other.


Thanks! And I agree! I never thought I would say this, but we love OB. There is nothing better than to see a Lab do schutzhund style heeling


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

Enzos Mom said:


> Thanks! And I agree! I never thought I would say this, but we love OB. There is nothing better than to see a Lab do schutzhund style heeling


If more people learned to do serious competition obedience work, it would put the "behaviorists" out of business, save a whole lot of dogs who would otherwise be put down and enlarge the overall relationship enormously. And it's only "work" if you'd rather be doing something else.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

As promised Im updated the encounter with my father. I got video of the initial introduction. https://youtu.be/BOPaU8CtycA After the video the dog was taken outside for a bit. I let him back in with a lead on so I still had control. I let him near my father and he stayed curious and relaxed so I gave my dad a treat. Dog took the treat gently and ate it and came back so my dad calmly reached out and pet the dog. Dog enjoyed the interaction. Dog started wandering and kept going back for attention. Then, while being petted the tail slowed and then stopped, and started to slowly lower, as soon as I saw this I tried to warn my dad but before I could even twitch my dog shoved his hand away, barked, and I heard his jaw pop like he tried to bite. My father told me that he pushed his hand away and then popped his jaw like it was a warning. Had the dog wanted to bite or continue with an attack he would have been able but he left it at that and then walked over to me and kept sniffing at my dads hands. He seemed relaxed again but I had seen what I needed to so I put him away for the night. This interaction is giving me some hope that it isnt too late to fix this.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Mistake number one: Not having the dog on lead. Leading a dog with these issues just by the collar can put them on the defensive right away, and your dog clearly showed that there would be problems from the get-go...plus it takes a nano-second for a dog to get loose if they really want to. Number two: Doing the happy/petting fun thing after he growled at your dad. You rewarded the behavior. Near the end when the dog was leaning on you, I didn't read scared at all. My read (from what I could see of him, which wasn't a lot) was uncertainty coupled with placing himself where he could be somewhat possessive of you.

I'm thinking you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. How old is your child? There is no way I would have a dog like this in a home with small children. Sorry. 

Edited to add: Think of it this way. It's a lot like kids. A good parent is a parent, not a best friend. You need to parent, not be a pal. Or his boss, not his BFF.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks Sharon. I think youre right on most points. I just feel more in control with the collar but judging by the later interactions on lead I need to get over it. The leaning thing makes sense and that seems to line up with the opinions of the breeder and the trainer. In the moment it felt more like he was trying to get me to do something about the situation but it seems just as likely of not more that his motovation was a claim, not a deferral to me.

My reasoning in the moment was just like for a crate crier or training many other things in puppies. I hoped that when he was quiet and more calm, rewarding him would communicate it as a good thing. I could have been completely wrong with this line of thinking. Im reserving that judgement for the behaviorist though. 

I didagree with the time bomb and am more optimistic than before. My daughter is 14 months and while I do monitor her interaction with both dogs, I trust them with her. If the baviorist agrees with you saturday then Ill let everyone know here after I calm down and make the appointment for the permanent solution. 

For everyone that keeps bringing up a rescue, I will adress this. You are so out of your minds it isnt funny. If I am willing to spend this money and go through every reprogramming available to fix this, how can you say in good conscience that I should shift this issue to make it someone elses problem. If he can not be fixed then a rescue would have to kill him.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> Mistake number one: Not having the dog on lead. Leading a dog with these issues just by the collar can put them on the defensive right away, and your dog clearly showed that there would be problems from the get-go...plus it takes a nano-second for a dog to get loose if they really want to. Number two: Doing the happy/petting fun thing after he growled at your dad. You rewarded the behavior. Near the end when the dog was leaning on you, I didn't read scared at all. My read (from what I could see of him, which wasn't a lot) was uncertainty coupled with placing himself where he could be somewhat possessive of you.
> 
> I'm thinking you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. How old is your child? There is no way I would have a dog like this in a home with small children. Sorry.
> ll
> Edited to add: Think of it this way. It's a lot like kids. A good parent is a parent, not a best friend. You need to parent, not be a pal. Or his boss, not his BFF.


Just to add a couple of things to this excellent post. I think you have an obedience problem too. You should only have to say sit once not repeat it time after time. Also, if you continue to try to rehab him I would remove the other dog from the equation. To much of a distraction. As Sharon said I would not let this dog around children. To much danger. I don't know what I would do but I do know Sharon knows what she's talking about . You have a lot of soul searching to do.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm hoping that Pete will see this and respond....lots of value in what he'd have to say.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Agree, Sharon, that video, and the OP's description, are troubling. Please, Wraithen, stop experimenting and wait for qualified, professional help (I know you have something scheduled). In the meantime, keep your dog away from other people, he's learning pretty quick what he thinks is acceptable behavior (but isn't), reinforced by you, and you don't have the tools and understanding yet, to deal with this. I'm glad you are looking for help, but please, be very careful with this dog. My 31 year old son still bears the scar he got at 13 months old, from a dog we thought was trustworthy. It takes mere seconds before you are faced with a racing trip to the ER. Better to be cautious now than sorry later.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

wraithen said:


> Thanks Sharon. I think youre right on most points. I just feel more in control with the collar but judging by the later interactions on lead I need to get over it. The leaning thing makes sense and that seems to line up with the opinions of the breeder and the trainer. In the moment it felt more like he was trying to get me to do something about the situation but it seems just as likely of not more that his motovation was a claim, not a deferral to me.
> 
> My reasoning in the moment was just like for a crate crier or training many other things in puppies. I hoped that when he was quiet and more calm, rewarding him would communicate it as a good thing. I could have been completely wrong with this line of thinking. Im reserving that judgement for the behaviorist though.
> 
> ...


No man, risking the safety of your child, other children, and other people all for an animal is ridiculous. 

A behaviourist is is only able to minimize, NOT eliminate the risk of your dog attacking. No matter how good any work may be, you have a dog that is off its rocker. It is able to make its own decisions, so even if you contro it better, it can still make its own decisions and one day those decisions could be very bad. Get rid of it, get a new one. Sending some money now on a new dog is much better than risking permanent disfigurement or worse on someone else. It is an animal.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Short story. A couple of years ago, I was contacted by a couple who'd had several Chessies. Their current one was the problem. He had tried to bite (and broke skin) two of their children that he had grown up with and had always seemed to love. The thought of putting him down was unbearable to them, so they contacted me and asked if I would just take the dog. Mind you, this wasn't local--it was a few states away. They drove him to meet me, and shed many tears when I left with him. 

This dog was talented. He came from very good lines, had derby ribbons, and a SH title, all at a year and a half. I had him for almost six months, trying to "fix" him. I did lots of vet work on him to try and find a problem, ran thyroid panels, tried everything I could think of. He had a hair trigger and I never knew what would set him off...not an easy read at all. I never got bitten, because I was always expecting it but he came damned close a time or two. When he has happy, he was happy...but then the switch would flip and he'd be Cujo. 

Anybody who knows me knows that "quit" is not in my vocabulary. It broke my heart to have to give up on this dog. Three times I made the vet appointment. I canceled the first two times, thinking there was just one more thing I could try. Third time came after he went after me and tore my jeans from knee to ankle. Game over.

That dog is buried here. Every time I walk past that spot, I'm reminded that sometimes there just isn't a better solution, and that the safety of people always comes ahead of the life of an animal.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

From the moment your dog approaches your dad, his ears are down, eyes are big and you can see he's very insecure with the situation. Yet you pet him rewarding his insecurity, you try to get him excited and then seek to push him into further interaction. He's very insecure with the whole thing, he's sending all the signals that he's insecure and doesn't want interaction, but instead of snapping his mind out of it with discipline and letting him acclimatize, you push him into further interaction. There's no way as the stranger I'd approach this dog in the state he's in, his very body is telling you if you push me more, your gonna get snapped at. But this reads as more of a fear bite to me, if given the option the dog would retreat. The other dog is this dogs comfort, he's looking to him for reassurance & not you. Pushing the interaction, and not commanding discipline seems to be what is causing this aggression. Still that's just my read, from 3min of film, realistically you've got a behaviorist coming, and I'd do what they recommend. I don't believe you have a time-bomb, that's all of a sudden gonna attack members of his family who he's very secure with, but I do think you've got a fear biter that doesn't like strangers, and when pushed into unwanted interaction, with a lack of disciplined leadership from you, he's gonna snap at them. Get the behaviorist out there and follow their instructions, don't go on experimenting with strangers until you've got the tools to enforce desired behavior around them.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

It is hard to see but I am pretty sure that the hair along the dogs spine, particularly near the tail, is erect. The lip licking is another sign. 

I too am curious of what Pete has to say, to me the dog looks very scared.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Your dog is on a hair trigger all the time. I could see it right away in his eyes. You are only kidding yourself by playing with him in a phony voice thinking he is ok because he reacts to you in a friendly way. You can not be 100% in control of him 100% of the time in your situation. Listen to these folks. Find him a home with a hunter that lives by himself or take him to a Chesapeake trainer. IMHO behaviorists, especially those not familiar with the breed, are too general in their assumptions as Chessie's are different from the get-go. All your body language is putting him on alert. One wrong move, especially if you think he is getting better, and someone will get hurt. That or take him back to the breeder.

Did you ever go visit him at the trainer? Maybe it is the dog and you, your body language. Maybe he felt secure with the trainer but doesn't with you. I have seen that happen. He is smart enough to see through your phony voice.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

I watched your video too, and a couple things jump out to me that other people have touched on.

1. You tell him to sit multiple times. He does for awhile, then gets up, ignores the sit command and approaches your father. Instead of a correction for ignoring your command, you reward him with a "good boy". You said sit, he was not sitting. You should not have rewarded him at all, and your father should not be petting him while he is disobeying you. A good response that coud be rewarded by you with a good boy and a pat, would've been him sitting calmly on command.

2. He shows obvious distrust and anxiousness and growls, yet you reward him with a "good boy" and petting and coddling talk when he growls closer to the beginning of the video. 

Everytime you coddle him and tell him he's a good boy when he displays any of those behaviors, you are teaching him that is what you expect from him. He ignores your command, you say good boy. He acts anxious, you say good boy. He growls, you say good boy and coddle him telling him he's ok.

You are essentially teaching him that ignoring your commands is good. That anxious behavior is good. That you want him plastered to your leg, and that growling at your father was what you wanted him to do. You told him it was good.

You cannot ascribe human feelings to this dog. He is probably a very awesome companion to you, but he is NOT a human 16 mo. Old child. Coddling a fearful dog will generally NOT make things better. 

Also, you should not EVER trust any animal with your children. They don't have the same level of reasoning ability a person does. Can you be comfortable with a good dog playing with your kids, absolutely. However, until a child is old enough and has proven he/she can command and control the dog, with the dog doing what the child says, you should ALWAYS supervise them together. 

With a child as young as you say yours is, and with your particular dog, I would completely keep them apart and NEVER allow the dog to interact with your little child on the same level, even if you were in the same room. Even if you were right next to them. 

Also, look into the dog training concept of "Nothing in Life is Free" and discuss it with the behaviourist.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

For those that have demonstrated basic reading comprehension, thank you for the advice.

For those that demostrated otherwise, thank you for showing us this.

For those insinuating my dog is showing familail aggression, he doesnt, wont be tolerated no matter what. He demonstrates key things when he isnt happy that I can key in on with strangers.

Thank you for pointing out my mistakes. That will probably be echoed by the behaviorists but it gives me lead time to figure out how to do better. My dog is not on a hair trigger at all times. It is only with strangers and only ones he designates as problem people. He shows none of this ever with people he accepts, this conversation wouldnt exist if the circumstances were as some seem to think it is. My dog will never show anything with my family or Ill advance the syringe myself if I had to. Period. End of story. I will not be bit and have a living dog. Ill update again after the behaviorists.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

wraithen said:


> For those that have demonstrated basic reading comprehension, thank you for the advice.
> 
> For those that demostrated otherwise, thank you for showing us this.
> 
> ...


a lot of people on here who have a lot more experience with cheesiest and working retrievers in general have given you very honest and better thought out advice than you are likely to get from some random "behaviourist". You continue to ignore their advice because it doesn't fit the narrative you want. Your choice, but unfortunately the consequences if the manifest, aren't good.

If you put the dog down once it bites, it's because you missed many warning signs far before.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

wraithen said:


> As promised Im updated the encounter with my father. I got video of the initial introduction. https://youtu.be/BOPaU8CtycA After the video the dog was taken outside for a bit. I let him back in with a lead on so I still had control. I let him near my father and he stayed curious and relaxed so I gave my dad a treat. Dog took the treat gently and ate it and came back so my dad calmly reached out and pet the dog. Dog enjoyed the interaction. Dog started wandering and kept going back for attention. Then, while being petted the tail slowed and then stopped, and started to slowly lower, as soon as I saw this I tried to warn my dad but before I could even twitch my dog shoved his hand away, barked, and I heard his jaw pop like he tried to bite. My father told me that he pushed his hand away and then popped his jaw like it was a warning. Had the dog wanted to bite or continue with an attack he would have been able but he left it at that and then walked over to me and kept sniffing at my dads hands. He seemed relaxed again but I had seen what I needed to so I put him away for the night. This interaction is giving me some hope that it isnt too late to fix this.


Hi Wraithen,

Was the behaviorist there for this? If so, did you do exactly what the behaviorist told you to do in this session that's on video? You told me in writing that you would only try to get a reaction out of the dog, with your dad there, to demonstrate this phenomenon to the behaviorist. Otherwise, your goal was to make your dog indifferent. I hope you can see that you did not in any way even attempt to make the dog indifferent to your dad.

I watched up to the 43 second mark and turned it off. Frankly, I was pretty frustrated - UNLESS you were doing it as instructed by the behaviorist. I then did come back after typing the majority of this post and watch the whole video. I don't see or hear an behaviorist in this scene and I'm shaking my head in disbelief.

I made these suggestions earlier: http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...Chessie-rage&p=1359133&viewfull=1#post1359133

I felt that by 43 seconds, my suggestions were discarded/ignored and the opposite was done. If the behaviorist was there telling you to do what you did, then fine. If the goal was to do what you normally do, to intentionally get the dog to show the issue, to demonstrate to the behaviorist then that's great. 

If not, it would appear to me that you used your dad as a crash test dummy. Which you were cautioned not to do, and you stated you would not do.

I wish you the best with this dog. 

I have the feeling there may be some denial in play on your part. You are not being objective about this dog. This is my read on it.

I have a very close training/hunting/professional colleague and friend whose labrador snapped and tore a hole in his daughter's cheek. All the way through. You could see her tongue with her mouth closed, by looking through the hole in her cheek. The daughter (1.5 years) crawled up and touched the dog (9 years) who was lying on the carpet. The dog snapped and in an instant it was over. It was horrific and the girl has had multiple plastic surgeries.

In this video, You immediately took that dog straight into the house, did not give the dog time to acclimate, had him held by the collar, forced your dad on him, had your dad talk to him.....It's a major case of forcing the whole thing on the dog to "Hope" something had magically changed. Again, if the behaviorist was right there orchestrating all of this, that's great. 

If not, then I honestly feel you are ignoring the input from people. You are not doing what you are saying you're going to do. You are forcing the dog on people (and people on this dog). It's not fair to the dog, and you're actually pointing your finger at a problem that only becomes magnified as a result.

Sorry for being harsh. 

Again, if you were doing as instructed by the behaviorist, great. If not, your daughter is at risk. Think hard please and don't continue to put your family members at risk.

Chris


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Chris,take it easy.....you havnt trained for the public long enough to realize about 10% of the people listen to what others (with way more experience).....have to offer...Jim


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

jd6400 said:


> Chris,take it easy.....you havnt trained for the public long enough to realize about 10% of the people listen to what others (with way more experience).....have to offer...Jim


Thanks Jim,

You're right. I called one of the experts on this thread at home and discussed the situation before making my post. I thought about "x-ing" out and not posting. Then I figured I'd put enough energy into it that I might as well lay my thoughts out there.

Hope all's well out there in the Buckeye state. I lived there 'til I was 10, by the way!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I deal with the public and their dogs every day,not in your state or country but they are still the same.
Stick my neck above the parapet. The dog is '*Hand-shy*' . That's your trigger. 
Why was there a requirement to use a treat in the meeting/greeting by the way ??


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Chris I did deliberately do exactly as I was instructed by the behaviorist. Operate as normal. The behaviorist wasnt there. I was not brushing you off. There are a lot of people that I am taking the advice to heart. Im kind of an emotional wreck about it at this point. My snarky comments were aimed at things like suggesting the dog go to a chessie trainer or that the dog is always as seen in the video. Its really hard to believe at this point that this is a lost cause when the problem wasnt even known to exist a month ago. I can not accept that at this point and if that makes me a terrible person then I will eventually some to that conclusion myself. At this point I think, my trainer thinks, and several other people think, it is possible that with a full analysis it might be a fixable situation. I am not disregarding any advice that could possibly apply. I am just in a holding pattern until I get the behaviorists advice. If you think I should not even bother with it since I have the advice of so many dog people telling me to kill the dog or pass the buck then that sir, I will blatantly disregard. Your advice on how to handle the dog will be followed inasmuch as it applies, as well as Sharons. I have the utmost respect for those mentioned and several others, which is why I didnt post much before this thread and why I did post this thread. At this point I have a dog that seems to not have a problem biting someone but hasnt committed to that course. I have a handler that knows how to say commands but is weak, and that may be giving the handler too much credit. Im sorry the video upset you. To be honest, in that situation, even if I had full intent and instruction, Id probably be so focused on preventing a bite that I would not be able to do much of what I wanted to, but would build upon it. I am not trying to blow anybody off. But it does get frustrating reading over and over again about how my dog has bitten someone and likely will again, or that my dog is going from good natured to cujo with my family. Those posts just get old when Im looking for the pearls of wisdom that you and quite a few others are trying to give me.


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

wraithen said:


> For those that have demonstrated basic reading comprehension, thank you for the advice.
> 
> For those that demostrated otherwise, thank you for showing us this.
> 
> ...


So the dog gets to decide who he designates as problem people? He gets to decide who he accepts? Wow!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

OP please realize no one here is bashing you. We have a genuine and realistic concern for your child. I don't think you realize that it only takes a second for a disaster to occur. If you take nothing else from our responses please do not take the risk of exposing your child to a dangerous situation period. I know you think if you are present you can prevent it, you can't. Have you ever seen dogs fight? One second tails are wagging the next there is blood. Please do not take a chance with your family on this. We all only have your and yours best interest at heart. Tim Bockmon

Edit I haven't given advice on putting the dog down. I just feel your situation is not the best for this animal and never will be but that is just my opinion. Good luck.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

This needs to stop. He is going to do what satisfies his position. He is not looking at this objectively but emotionally. So it is time to stop. 

I personally have Chessies and this does put them in a bad light. I have three intact males.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

moscowitz said:


> This needs to stop. He is going to do what satisfies his position. He is not looking at this objectively but emotionally. So it is time to stop.
> 
> I personally have Chessies and this does put them in a bad light. I have three intact males.


I agree with Mike. Let's just let it ride and hope he reports back after the behaviorist has seen the dog. It's an emotional situation as it is, and best for wraithen to keep his focus on his dog rather than all of us piling on him and adding to the stress. 

Wraithen, please do report back after the behaviorist has been there.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Agreed nothing further to be gained. But in all honesty I never viewed this as a Chessie problem only a dog problem. All breeds are capable of aggression and I have seen it from cow dogs to labs. Good luck OP and keep us posted.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Understood. Thanks Chris. Sharon if nothing else I will email you and anyone else what the results are. I truly appreciate the professionalism and help that was given.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

now that it's all over my $0.02.

tim, 
good post, good try.

i love these threads and over the years have observed that there are two types of people who own dogs. there are extremes at both end of the spectrum of both groups. 

1. those who can't understand why anyone would ever own a dog that could possibly be dangerous to anyone. 
2. those who think it's kinda cool that their dog would bite someone besides themselves.

wraith, i watched the video. my pearl, if you own a fenced auto salvage yard or happen to be a colubian drug lord......you got a good dog.;-)


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

wraithen said:


> Understood. Thanks Chris. Sharon if nothing else I will email you and anyone else what the results are. I truly appreciate the professionalism and help that was given.


Why would you not post on here ?


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks for that levity john. Got a chuckle out of me. Duck I know you didnt advocate it just started feeling really dark. Polmaise Im not sure Im doing anything productive on this particular topic and may need to distance myself for a bit from this thread. I definitely need to be doing some homework on a few topics as is as soon as I get off of work.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

wraithen said:


> For those that have demonstrated basic reading comprehension, thank you for the advice.
> 
> For those that demostrated otherwise, thank you for showing us this.
> 
> ...


I completely understand where you are coming from and why you feel the way you do. I have lived with what your dog displayed for the last 6 years, although my dog would have lunged and bitten. Does that mean your dog is less aggressive than mine? No, because early on my dog showed all the same signs yours did and it got worse as he got older. Like you, I formed a fast attachment to my dog and was not going to give him away or put him down. He did bite a child at 11 mos old (prey driven), bit several dogs and a vet tech when I had to leave him for neutering (which by the way does not diminish an aggressive dogs behavior), and went for a long bite on a customer in my ex-husbands shop. All unprovoked reactions. 

It's taken my dog 6 years to be indifferent to people, 6 years of daily training and exposure in various environments. However, he can never be around a strange dog or human without being on leash. I am unable to go on vacation because I can't leave him with anyone. First off I wouldn't do that to the dog. It's unfair to put him in a position he is not comfortable in; and leaving him with a stranger in a strange place with strange dogs will result in a bad situation. Guaranteed. If you aren't able or willing to commit to his training for his life span and be hyper vigilant at all times than you have to seriously consider rehoming. This dog may be the greatest family pet and protector but only if he has a strong handler who can read his triggers and not put him a position that will force him to make (wrong) decisions. That's really the bottom line. A behaviorist can only give you so much information, it will be up to you if you are willing to be diligent for the rest of the dogs life to keep him safe. Because that's what it comes down to. If the dog is not put into uncomfortable situations and feels safe, then the people around him will be safe. 

But please do not discount what other people have said about having your child near this dog. One wrong move the dog mistakes as a threat and his self preservation will be to bite. It doesn't mean you have to keep them separate at all times, it just means you have to be hyper vigilant when they are in close proximity. To this day I make my dog come with me into another room if I have people over. Why even take a chance. 

On the flip side, I can say I'm able to take my dog in public places. He's allowed to run off leash in an open field as long as other dogs do no approach him or are indifferent to him. My dog has no desire to interact with dogs and people and I don't force him to. We compete in a variety of dog sports and he lives a fairly normal dog life. But I know who he is and I don't push that button. It's not how most people want dog ownership to be. Most everyone I meet, including what I would consider pet dog or less experienced trainers, have expressed no desire to own such a dog. And I get it. But I was willing to work with who he was and channel the aggression productively instead of trying to change him to who I think he should be. So far it works for us, but I'm divorced with disposable income and can spend $1,000's on training. Which is what it takes. He's a damn smart dog and places in every sport we run, but he's also a lot of work.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I just wanted to tell you what it took me to work with a dog like yours.

Please keep us posted.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

Enzos Mom said:


> I completely understand where you are coming from and why you feel the way you do. I have lived with what your dog displayed for the last 6 years, although my dog would have lunged and bitten. Does that mean your dog is less aggressive than mine? No, because early on my dog showed all the same signs yours did and it got worse as he got older. Like you, I formed a fast attachment to my dog and was not going to give him away or put him down. He did bite a child at 11 mos old (prey driven), bit several dogs and a vet tech when I had to leave him for neutering (which by the way does not diminish an aggressive dogs behavior), and went for a long bite on a customer in my ex-husbands shop. All unprovoked reactions.
> 
> It's taken my dog 6 years to be indifferent to people, 6 years of daily training and exposure in various environments. However, he can never be around a strange dog or human without being on leash. I am unable to go on vacation because I can't leave him with anyone. First off I wouldn't do that to the dog. It's unfair to put him in a position he is not comfortable in; and leaving him with a stranger in a strange place with strange dogs will result in a bad situation. Guaranteed. If you aren't able or willing to commit to his training for his life span and be hyper vigilant at all times than you have to seriously consider rehoming. This dog may be the greatest family pet and protector but only if he has a strong handler who can read his triggers and not put him a position that will force him to make (wrong) decisions. That's really the bottom line. A behaviorist can only give you so much information, it will be up to you if you are willing to be diligent for the rest of the dogs life to keep him safe. Because that's what it comes down to. If the dog is not put into uncomfortable situations and feels safe, then the people around him will be safe.
> 
> ...






Seriously?


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

quacksnracks said:


> Seriously?


Yes. Not all aggressive dogs need to be PTS.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

KwickLabs said:


> _""Does anyone have first hand experience with a dog that does this?" Yep, a yellow lab. Shot it. Sorry I can't be of more help but the liability in my opinion is just to great. Again, I wish you all the good luck in the world.
> Don and Crew_
> 
> Yes, "managed" it for quite awhile (several years)...and was very efficient about containing it. During that time we trained often, earned an AKC Senior title and duck hunted each fall. During that time I did not realize how much mental energy was consumed in being "on guard" all the time. "Light switch aggression" is extremely scary. I personally got the "chills" several times (only got bit once) and finally realized the emotional energy spent "managing" the problem around my family was too much.
> ...


Funny Jim but that Yella lab I had was close to 40 years ago and I still wonder what went wrong. Lots of dogs have come and gone since. I remember them all but that Yella lab ???
Don and Crew


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## sick lids (Sep 25, 2012)

Watched the video, it is pretty scary seeing children's toys in a house with a large dog that has become like that. Looks like typical "small dog syndrome". Most likely YOU are the problem. Every instance that this happens further ingrains the behavior and will lead to heart ache, and financial loss. Just because this dog is trained dose not mean that it accepts you as the alpha or that it wont bite a household family member.

Your personal feelings aside do what's right for the kids safety, pretty please.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

Enzos Mom said:


> Yes. Not all aggressive dogs need to be PTS.


It bit a child. Yes it should be put to sleep.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

Enzos Mom said:


> I've got....disposable income and can spend $1,000's on training. Which is what it takes. He's a damn smart dog and places in every sport we run, but he's also a lot of work.


No. You've got a terrific well-rounded hobby on which you spend lots. Me, too. But if we didn't have the money, but had the same time, determination and character, it would turn out just as well, though we might compete less and get lower scores. Or maybe you'd put a UD on your dog or more advanced titles in fewer sports. It's only work if you'd rather be doing something else. I doubt that--especially with at least one small kid, a young wife and giving ten sit commands in a brief video --wraithen or any inexperienced mostly pet owner has the things that would enable this to work.

I'd like to be wrong about that. Good post, enzos mom.


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## Enzos Mom (Sep 18, 2012)

steveMO said:


> No. You've got a terrific well-rounded hobby on which you spend lots. Me, too. But if we didn't have the money, but had the same time, determination and character, it would turn out just as well, though we might compete less and get lower scores. Or maybe you'd put a UD on your dog or more advanced titles in fewer sports. It's only work if you'd rather be doing something else. I doubt that--especially with at least one small kid, a young wife and giving ten sit commands in a brief video --wraithen or any inexperienced mostly pet owner has the things that would enable this to work.
> 
> I'd like to be wrong about that. Good post, enzos mom.


You're right - it's not work. It has made me a better trainer with more tools in my box to apply to future dogs. One thing I've learned, a dog like I have who is smart and has a lot of talent, come far and few between. He's a once in a lifetime dog. Everyone says he's lucky to have me, but honestly I'm the lucky one. He makes me look like I know what I'm doing


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I have told this story several times on RTF so I won't go into the details. My wife and I have had numerous chessies, did rescue, put multiple titles, show, field and obedience, etc. We had a titled bitch that become overly protective of me. She was aggressive towards people. We put her down. Keeping a dangerous is not worth putting people at physical risk.

Tom


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This thread definitely tends to support this _"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away."_ Henry David Thoreau


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok, I think Ive been getting confused with too many side stories and responses to them. 

Today is the big day. Ive got some house cleaning to do before the behaviorist shows up. I did look at the k9 page in regards to nilif. Is there somewhere else that has more details on possible ways this dog may have been testing me. I discovered one way that he has hands down been testing me and winning. Its when I go to put him in his crate for the end of the night. He likes to dance around and force me to repeat my commands. Last night I said it once with his crate door open and ignored him. He danced around for a while so I grabbed his ear and did an ear pinch. He fought it for about 30 seconds and then walked into his crate. Not gonna lose that test ever again. He tries to test the normal ways such as leaning or running a collision path or stepping on my toes but he doesnt get those. I continue my path or give him a knee to the ribs or step on his foot.

From now on I will not grab his collar unless it is to put his lead on or to grab something as a very last resort.

I plan on putting him in his crate with the door to the room shut when the behaviorist shows up. Ill post the results when I get them.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Good luck today wraithen hope you find a solution to the problem.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

wraithen said:


> Ok, I think Ive been getting confused with too many side stories and responses to them.
> 
> Today is the big day. Ive got some house cleaning to do before the behaviorist shows up. I did look at the k9 page in regards to nilif. Is there somewhere else that has more details on possible ways this dog may have been testing me. I discovered one way that he has hands down been testing me and winning. Its when I go to put him in his crate for the end of the night. He likes to dance around and force me to repeat my commands. Last night I said it once with his crate door open and ignored him. He danced around for a while so I grabbed his ear and did an ear pinch. He fought it for about 30 seconds and then walked into his crate. Not gonna lose that test ever again. He tries to test the normal ways such as leaning or running a collision path or stepping on my toes but he doesnt get those. I continue my path or give him a knee to the ribs or step on his foot.
> 
> ...



If your dog was force fetched, don't use an ear pinch for anything other than dropping a bird.

if your dog was trained to kennel, use a heeling stick, e collar, or a smack in the butt. Use the enforcement that it was trained with. Don't send mixed signals.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok quack. I assumed pressure was pressure. I will use the butt smack or heeling stick from now on. Thank you.


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

The more I read, I think that this is not a Chesapeake thing or simply genetics. Chesapeakes are not for everyone, some people would be served better by a lab or golden.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

wraithen said:


> Ok quack. I assumed pressure was pressure. I will use the butt smack or heeling stick from now on. Thank you.


I wouldn't use a heeling stick.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

wraithen said:


> I sent him to a trainer for 6 months and brought him home.


And, um, it took ten "sit" requests in a brief video before the dog grudgingly agreed with the idea? What did you think he learned in six months? I'm not sure a Chessie is the right breed for you, depending of course on the dog. But Kansasclipper's post has great merit.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

kansasclipper said:


> The more I read, *I think that this is not a Chesapeake thing or simply genetics*. *Chesapeakes are not for everyone*, some people would be served better by a lab or golden.


I don't agree.
Are you saying they are not dogs?
Or are you saying the breeding is wrong ?
Or are you saying they require specialist or elite training only by people who have that breed?
Small club that would eventually be for the breed. 
Contradictory,when it's used in the same quote that you think it's not a Breed thing or even genetics. Which leaves me perplexed with others who agree with the post . 
Most people would be served better by a Rabbit or a Gerbal.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, I was really through with this thread until reading this _"I continue my path or give him a knee to the ribs or step on his foot."_

Any "OB with a hammer mentality" will likely sustain emotional reactions. In addition, nothing an aggressive dog does can be taken personally.
Solving aggression........with any form of aggression is NOT a wise choice. As a human, one is supposed to be smarter than a dog and 
therefore not make a contest out of who is capable of being "nastier". When issues arise, many seem to ignore that dogs need a meaningful,
rewarding job.

Then again.......... 

The rest of this post was deleted because I'm sure it would offend at least a few. I'm old and not up to speed with the "new social norms".


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok so my dog did exactly as I feared. I had him in his crate with the door to the room closed. I asked them if they would be willing to meet him on their own and do ob work as my trainer requested. They left the house and I put him outside. They walked through the sliding glass door, let him sniff their hands and then put a lead on him. 5 minutes later they were doing long sits off lead with him. He never once acted stressed or uncomfortable.

I showed them the video and they read it as I did the things already pointed out as wrong. They want to do another intro with a stranger under the same circumstance as my intro with my father except with me not holding the collar and not being in such a small part of the home. They are confidant we can fix this in pretty short order and have him completely reliable in any circumstance Im worried about. The only thing I didnt understand was they want to use "functional reward" to teach him how to make himself more comfortable. Im not hip to this jive so Ive got some more research to do. Ill keep this updated. Im feeling really confident that I can fix this and not be one of those pronoun people that chessie owners refer to.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Kwick, he doesnt get kicked or struck, he gets me ignoring him instead of adjusting my path, or pushed on the ribs with my knee to stop leaning on me. Im not striking my dog. Sorry it read that way. Pm me the offensive part.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

wraithen said:


> Ok so my dog did exactly as I feared. I had him in his crate with the door to the room closed. I asked them if they would be willing to meet him on their own and do ob work as my trainer requested. They left the house and I put him outside. They walked through the sliding glass door, let him sniff their hands and then put a lead on him. 5 minutes later they were doing long sits off lead with him. He never once acted stressed or uncomfortable.
> 
> I showed them the video and they read it as I did the things already pointed out as wrong. They want to do another intro with a stranger under the same circumstance as my intro with my father except with me not holding the collar and not being in such a small part of the home. They are confidant we can fix this in pretty short order and have him completely reliable in any circumstance Im worried about. The only thing I didnt understand was they want to use "functional reward" to teach him how to make himself more comfortable. Im not hip to this jive so Ive got some more research to do. Ill keep this updated. Im feeling really confident that I can fix this and not be one of those pronoun people that chessie owners refer to.


I reckon.....You are on your own


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I think your an ass "Chessie Rage". What was wrong with dog rage or why did you really post since you already knew what you were going to do. I have Chessies and resent you post


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Only people who have experienced the type of behavior the OP is referring to can empathize with his position. It is extremely stressful. Calling someone an as because they are rightly fearful of possible outcomes is not helpful.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

The initial post was due to me not picking up on the tells he had when he was nosing at a hand. I posted for information. I already had a good idea of what I was going to do and was also trying to process every other possible action all at once. I see where I caused great confusion and resentment towards myself. Before I started looking into a lot of different things I had some misconceptions. None of them founded.

I dont need anyone to defend me, I screwed up a lot of things and in very dumb ways, none of them truly excusable. Im not offended by anyone, I was upset at a large number of posts saying pts or rehome. Those suggestions at the end of the day are peoples opinions and I shouldnt have felt so defensive about them.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Internet training is a worrisome thing. Especially about this subject. Keep the kids safe and good luck.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Will do duk. Thanks. Kind regards.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I saw your video.
I hope you are making the right choice and not learn the hard way which could result in being disastrous. 
It’s a dog, please understand that.
Your main priority is raising your family and that includes protecting them.
Don’t let your pride and stubbornness change that priority.
And don’t you dare come on this forum later and report that your dog indeed bit your child and you put the dog down.
It would add insult to injury……
Good luck to you and remember family is first.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

I'm curious? How did this thread get re-titled?


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

I either have access to stuff Im not supposed to or its not that hard. Edit options under administrative has a copy thread button. Click that and change the name of the thread and you can select the destination. It will move and change the thread name at the same time.

If youre asking why then it is because the title was misleading and people were not reading the initial post. It was upsetting to a few people and the thread was getting unintended types of resposes so I changed the title.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

wraithen said:


> I either have access to stuff Im not supposed to or its not that hard. Edit options under administrative has a copy thread button. Click that and change the name of the thread and you can select the destination. It will move and change the thread name at the same time.
> 
> If youre asking why then it is because the title was misleading and people were not reading the initial post. It was upsetting to a few people and the thread was getting unintended types of resposes so I changed the title.


 It would probably behoove you not to post any more on your situation because the hole that you are in is getting deeper. JMO

On a side note: If I was your dad, I would put the dog down and ask for forgiveness later… Just saying….


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Very well. All that would like to know the progress of this who have not already pmed me to keep them informed let me know.

Edit to add: None of my previous post to this was snarky or a jab at anyone, if anyone took it that way it was not intended.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

wraithen said:


> I either have access to stuff Im not supposed to or its not that hard. Edit options under administrative has a copy thread button. Click that and change the name of the thread and you can select the destination. It will move and change the thread name at the same time.
> 
> If youre asking why then it is because the title was misleading and people were not reading the initial post. It was upsetting to a few people and the thread was getting unintended types of resposes so I changed the title.


 Don't pay attention to BJ , and don't worry about any stinking hole he may think you are diggin. Please keep us updated on this thread, other people may be able to learn from your experience.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Don't pay attention to BJ , and don't worry about any stinking hole he may think you are diggin. Please keep us updated on this thread, other people may be able to learn from your experience.


Yes. Good post. Especially the first clause.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Please do not go private. Even though this thread has been hard on you I am positive many people including me have benefited from this thread. Lots of BJ's aren't all they are cracked up to be.


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## FieldLab (Aug 5, 2011)

How is he as a hunter ? Maybe just use him as a working dog just my 2 cents


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Please do not go private. Even though this thread has been hard on you I am positive many people including me have benefited from this thread. Lots of BJ's aren't all they are cracked up to be.


 Naughty guy!!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Naughty guy!!


Who? Me?


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## catfish_joe (Sep 16, 2013)

duk4me said:


> Please do not go private. Even though this thread has been hard on you I am positive many people including me have benefited from this thread. Lots of BJ's aren't all they are cracked up to be.


Yep, lots of these threads get started, then hardly ever does the OP report back on progress so anyone else dealing with the same issue can't learn. I'm interested in seeing how things progress, though if you prefer PM is fine, but this could be very valuable to someone now or in the future.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This has been an interesting thread for me.
My current dog,will growl,and bark at strangers..I have been scolded and told it was something I did.
I do not think that is the case....

The post that has made the most sense to me was the one Chris posted about making the dog insignificant, and ignoring it..



This has been the most positive rout I have taken with my dog. A couple of Obedience people wanted to do the treat things, but for most of the time, treats were not available, and I didnt want to risk it..

My dog is much improved. She is out of her crate now at training days with a group of people who are familiar to her, and understand, under any circumstance they cannot talk to her or make eye contact..

She will now walk with me even with others walking close to us with their dogs out also.. BUT,, WE ALL have very strict Obedience with each dog under these circumstances.. it has worked very well.... My Obedience with the dog, has a very high standard...

The problem is,, the people who think they know better,and will continually test the situation, Trying to talk to my dog, reach thier hand out to pet ect.. even after I have expressed to them, to pretend the dog doesnt exist..

As long as people ignore her, She is quiet, Rarely growls, is an Angel at the line.... You would never know there is a problem..

At our house however, She doesnt like visitors. If there is a Knock at the door, or the bell rings, She will bark like crazy.. We have to wait to answer the door, untill we get her crated..,,, after a bit of time,we can let her out,, but the visitors must be told to not baby talk her try to pet her when she meets them,,NO Talking to her at all... She will usually be quiet and lay down under those circumstances..... 

This along with a very strict obedience has worked well..

I try to avoid those people who refuse to believe what they see or what they are asked to NOT do, and want to "test" her on a continual basis... I avoid those people like the plaque..


I train with a familiar group most everyday. this past week, She was out, ignored, decided to lay in the shade of the truck, untill it was her time to work..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Last hunting season, I hunted with a friend in a Pit. We both had dogs. a dog at each end of the pit.. Both dogs held to high Obedience standards..
We ignored each others dogs... My dog laid down in the pit and went to sleep, untill the calling started..


She is Fine ( I still keep a VERY close eye on her) as long as people ignore her..


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

Since owning an Aussie my perspective on protectiveness and aggression has changed... I didn't read the entire thread, just first and last couple pages, 18 is a little much. My quick thoughts - 

-Not every dog is going to be a slobbery, people-loving Golden, and _that is OK_.

-Respect the dog you have - what you have is not going to ever be 100% trustworthy around children or strangers, regardless of how much he improves after this. Accept it, respect it, keep him in situations where he can succeed. Mine is great with children, not with ill-mannered puppies, and inconsistent with visitors - or even friends. Because of that, I don't trust him completely with children, who aren't always going to make intelligent decisions about dogs.

-If you can't keep him in situations where he and your family can be safe, then it's time to look at other options for the dog's future. My Aussie succeeds because I don't have kids, always put him up or send him to another room when there's visitors, and he rarely get opportunities to be protective/aggressive. (But he is - I had the neighbor kid mow the yard this summer and received a report that the Aussie tried to climb out of his 6' kennel, with a roof, thankfully, to get him.)

-A dog cannot misbehave if he's currently obeying your commands. He cannot be both lunging at someone, growling, and barking - and obeying a 'sit' and 'watch me.' Not possible. Improve the obedience and some of your problems will no longer be noticeable. My Aussie almost has his UDX - one of the exercises has me leave him on a stand/stay as we're heeling, a complete stranger walks over and runs his/her hands over the dog. No problems - ever.

-A lot of problems - not all, but many of them - actually getting better when you ignore them. If it's not a big deal to you it's not a big deal to the dog.

-If you had to make the post, you need real help for your dog.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> My read on this, based on what you've said, is that your young Chessie feels the need to be in charge because you and your family are not. You may think you are because he "likes" you....but I've seen this quite a bit. He feels the need to defend because he doesn't have faith in you to be in charge. He's at just the right age to feel that way.
> 
> *Please don't use your father as a "crash test dummy". Bad idea. And muzzles have a tendency to put dogs on the defensive at first because they feel cornered and defenseless, so I'd be cautious with that as well.*
> 
> ...



And tell people to stay away that want to volunteer... to be a dummy... JMHO!

Does putting the dog on a "Sit" do the same thing? Can that make the dog defensive? Is just ignoring and leashing the dog a better environment?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

IdahoLabs said:


> Since owning an Aussie my perspective on protectiveness and aggression has changed... I didn't read the entire thread, just first and last couple pages, 18 is a little much. My quick thoughts -
> 
> -Not every dog is going to be a slobbery, people-loving Golden, and _that is OK_.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

IdahoLabs said:


> -A dog cannot misbehave if he's currently obeying your commands. He cannot be both lunging at someone, growling, and barking - and obeying a 'sit' and 'watch me.' Not possible. Improve the obedience and some of your problems will no longer be noticeable.


I couldn't agree more. I don't know whether the OP is still following this thread or not, but in case he is I want to interject this. I don't have any first hand experience with dog vs. human aggression, but what really jumped out to me about the OP's video was the poor response to obedience commands. A few posters have mentioned this but it appears to me that the OP is not focusing on this angle. You repeatedly told the dog to sit, you praised the dog while he ignored your sit command (I think you were praising his reaction to your father at that moment) but you had just told him to sit and he made no move to do so but was immediately praised. Think about that message for a minute.

To the OP, please understand that I am trying to be helpful, not simply to pile on so take this in the spirit in which it is intended. In my opinion you are not nearly the alpha to this dog that you think you are. Your dog does not understand that it has to obey you, certainly not the first time you say a command. In the video you are nagging the dog to sit and he is blowing you off. I'm about to suggest that you read a post that has nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with being your dog's leader and demanding obedience and respect. Please read this by Ted Shih and ask yourself if you are demanding obedience like you should. As I said, I am unqualified to speak on dog vs. man aggression but I know that if you command your dog to sit (or heel, down, kennel) and it is obeying then it will be hard for him to do anything else. Also by making the dog give you strict obedience you may restore the order in some fashion in terms of the dog understanding who is in charge and that just might (or might not) have dividends in terms of this dog's mentality. Here's the post: http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?8949-Sit-means-Sit-Or-Does-It


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If you tell a dog to sit, or lie down in a bed, etc. and the dog gets up, you correct for that infraction of a known command. That way it has nothing at all to do with any other people in the area. Keeping the two separate works very well. A correction for the dog getting up and walking toward another person needs to be about breaking the sit, not about approaching a person.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

And a dog can bite whether it's sitting standing or lying down.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

polmaise said:


> And a dog can bite whether it's sitting standing or lying down.


Not if it's nowhere near people.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Not if it's nowhere near people.


But it would if people went near it


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

polmaise said:


> But it would if people went near it


Which is why you tell people to leave the dog alone and stay away from it.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> And a dog can bite whether it's sitting standing or lying down.


But it can't bite if it is carrying or holding a bird.


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

I don't associate with people who have a poor personality nor would I ever hunt with someone who owned a dog with a poor personality. Life is to short to put up with a dog who lacks the desire to wag and love people. The OP's dog will never change is personality. Some dogs, like people, are just pricks.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

wraithen;1360256. They are confidant we can fix this in pretty short order and have him completely reliable in any circumstance Im worried about..[/QUOTE said:


> Based on a single encounter in which they did not observe your dog in the triggering situation, I am extremely suspect of this statement. After 45 years of training retrievers, I would never declare any dog completely reliable for anything.
> 
> This could work out but both your and their optimism needs to be severely tempered. In the interim, protect all innocent bystanders (your daughter!). This is not a breed issue, it could be breeding issue or a training issue-you or your "trainer". Regardless, it is what it is and a single visit by unknown "behaviourists" (what is?) is no grounds for complacency!
> 
> Regards


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> BJ. I sure hope you wake up with a clear head and have some amount of Regret for some of he crummy stuff you write to people some evenings.


Again...I ask for forgiveness later.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hi BJ. Wow! What do you
> Mean by "Again"?
> 
> For there to be an again, there needs to be something that precedes.
> ...


You are looking to much in this.
I am what I am....


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> But it can't bite if it is carrying or holding a bird.


Or wearing a muzzle


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

polmaise said:


> Or wearing a muzzle


or taking a "nap"!;-)


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> After 45 years of training retrievers, I would never declare any dog completely reliable for anything. *This is not a breed issue*,
> Regards


dennis, 

respectfully, i must ask, when did "racially profiling" dogs become politically incorrect? as a non-published, non-accomplished observer of dogs over time. i also, respectfully, disagree.;-)


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

roseberry said:


> dennis,
> 
> respectfully, i must ask, when did "racially profiling" dogs become politically incorrect? as a non-published, non-accomplished observer of dogs over time. i also, respectfully, disagree.;-)



I am simply saying that any breed of retriever could act the way that this Chessie is and that it is more likely it is the particular breeding, the owners behaviour or the result of the "trainer". And some will say it is politically incorrect to say so!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I am simply saying that any breed of retriever could act the way that this Chessie is and that it is more likely it is the particular breeding, the owners behaviour or the result of the "trainer". And some will say it is politically incorrect to say so!


I agree with you, there were multiple post implying or outright saying this was a typical Chessie issue and I think that viewpoint needs to be disputed. We all know Chessies are different than Labs and Goldens in the warm fuzzy department, and that part of their history was to be that one man, protect the gear, stalwart hunting dog, but in my experience the modern CBR is not any more people aggressive than the average Golden. That said there are outliers in every breed, I almost had my hand bitten off by a calm looking Golden that was sitting in the bed of a pickup as I reached to pet him.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> I agree with you, there were multiple post implying or outright saying this was a typical Chessie issue and I think that viewpoint needs to be disputed. We all know Chessies are different than Labs and Goldens in the warm fuzzy department, and that part of their history was to be that one man, protect the gear, stalwart hunting dog, but in my experience the modern CBR is not any more people aggressive than the average Golden. That said there are outliers in every breed, I almost had my hand bitten off by a calm looking Golden that was sitting in the bed of a pickup as I reached to pet him.


John,Ive had more "tuff" goldens through here ,than labs and chessies,alot more!!!! Jim


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> John,Ive had more "tuff" goldens through here ,than labs and chessies,alot more!!!! Jim


Yeah Jim, my wife and I have been lucky with our six Goldens over 24 years, but we've heard plenty of stories from pro trainers about Goldens not necessarily being the all soft and cuddly dog you see on tv. I think that for the most part they are very good with humans, but some of them react poorly to pressure and decide that aren't going to take it. 

Dog on dog they are pretty good, but if it comes to a fight they are deadly, dirty fighters. I knew a guy with pit bulls, he said his dog got in a fight with a Golden and the Golden bit his nuts off. The pros I have spoken to say they are way more on their toes watching for trouble with a Golden male in the kennel.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> Yeah Jim, my wife and I have been lucky with our six Goldens over 24 years, but we've heard plenty of stories from pro trainers about Goldens not necessarily being the all soft and cuddly dog you see on tv. I think that for the most part they are very good with humans, but some of them react poorly to pressure and decide that aren't going to take it.
> 
> Dog on dog they are pretty good, but if it comes to a fight they are deadly, dirty fighters. I knew a guy with pit bulls, he said his dog got in a fight with a Golden and the Golden bit his nuts off. The pros I have spoken to say they are way more on their toes watching for trouble with a Golden male in the kennel.


Got to agree wholeheartedly,and our better Golden's were the "tuff ones" Jim


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

roseberry said:


> or taking a "nap"!;-)


or with no teeth ! It just sucks


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

John Robinson said:


> We all know Chessies are different than Labs and Goldens in the warm fuzzy department, and that part of their history was to be that one man, protect the gear, stalwart hunting dog, but in my experience the modern CBR is not any more people aggressive than the average Golden.


 I've definitely noticed differences between labs and our chessie in the warm fuzzy department, but not in the way most non chessie people would expect. Our chessie is a lover with our family and anyone our dog can tell we welcome. He will not really work for anyone outside our immediate family though, he will generally sit to be petted and loved on, by someone else, but that's about as far as it goes. 

A big difference we've noticed between some labs and our chessie, is that labs sometimes seem to be happy with whoever they're with or where ever they're at at the time. For instance, when we are together with my mother in law, her lab is content to hang out outdoors by himself after they train together. The dogs may go for a romp together, but then our chessie comes to the door or checks in with his people. He's like that alone too, when he's just playing etc. He will run out and explore, and then check back in and he will always gravitate back to being really close by us.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

We have a Lab who comes to our training class who would Rip the face off any dog that came in to her space ?
She is from 'top class trial breeding' too !


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> They are confidant we can fix this in pretty short order and have him completely reliable in any circumstance Im worried about. The only thing I didnt understand was they want to use "functional reward" to teach him how to make himself more comfortable.


If you google "functional rewards" you come up with BAT training, a type of positive training with non-treat rewards. 
https://thecognitivecanine.wordpress.com/tag/functional-rewards/
http://empoweredanimals.com/
https://ahimsadogtraining.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=MCH-0167


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I have a Lab that when she was ~16mt. old would react about the same that the OP's dog does to strangers being in her space, or being forced in to interaction as such I wouldn't let her around them, without me being there to direct-correct her. My dogs aren't allowed to growl, I don't allow a lot of things I see in that video. But 16mt is still a mold-able age, dogs are pretty much teenagers at this point still learning what is right and wrong; but starting to test. So I read the signs early and corrected them, very sternly. She'll never be the most lovable lab, she'll only really like her people; but she can be around strangers and kids supervised. No one would ever know she had such tendencies at 16mt. Shouldn't any dog your in charge of always be supervised around people they don't know, and at anytime they're around kids period? I seriously doubt if most of us on this forum, (those with experience) had a dog with this tendency we would've let it develop into snapping. If it had we would've taken care of it quickly sternly and the dog would have learned a better way, particularly those with experience with Chessies. Not saying it's a breed thing such a tendency can be in any dog, but is pretty standard for a Chessie to have a built in tendency to be pushy, and need strong leadership-direction, otherwise they tend to make their own decisions on things. To me this dog is highly insecure and looking for that strong leadership-direction, but is getting direction, which rewards his insecurity, "oh your insecure..here let me pet you" " Your nervous.. Good dog" " Growling at a stranger...it's alright have a treat" . All this is doing is getting the dog more animated, more alert, and highly likely to snap. His behavior is incorrect but I'm not hearing any NO!! QUIET...SIT.. DOWN...NO which is being immediately enforced.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I have a Lab that when she was ~16mt. old would react about the same that the OP's dog does to strangers being in her space, or being forced in to interaction as such I wouldn't let her around them, without me being there to direct-correct her. My dogs aren't allowed to growl, I don't allow a lot of things I see in that video. But 16mt is still a mold-able age, dogs are pretty much teenagers at this point still learning what is right and wrong; but starting to test. So I read the signs early and corrected them, very sternly. She'll never be the most lovable lab, she'll only really like her people; but she can be around strangers and kids supervised. No one would ever know she had such tendencies at 16mt. Shouldn't any dog your in charge of always be supervised around people they don't know, and at anytime they're around kids period? I seriously doubt if most of us on this forum, (those with experience) had a dog with this tendency we would've let it develop into snapping. If it had we would've taken care of it quickly sternly and the dog would have learned a better way, particularly those with experience with Chessies. Not saying it's a breed thing such a tendency can be in any dog, but is pretty standard for a Chessie to have a built in tendency to be pushy, and need strong leadership-direction, otherwise they tend to make their own decisions on things. To me this dog is highly insecure and looking for that strong leadership-direction, but is getting direction, which rewards his insecurity, "oh your insecure..here let me pet you" " Your nervous.. Good dog" " Growling at a stranger...it's alright have a treat" . All this is doing is getting the dog more animated, more alert, and highly likely to snap. His behavior is incorrect but I'm not hearing any NO!! QUIET...SIT.. DOWN...NO which is being immediately enforced.


 I agree completely!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

When is your next session WR? Keep us posted this could benefit a lot of people in the long run. for every person that post there is probably 100 or more that are following. Thanks.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Just got done with the 1st session. Basically let the people in and let the dog in to do his thing. He charged and growled and sniffed, and then remembered them and looked for the treats. What worked really well is blocking him from going to the door. I have a new boundary he isnt allowed to cross. He walks to it, gets a sit with a body block and then I continue to the door. Need fresh victims but they will bring me some next time. I also have homework. Need to work on crate as a command instead of letting kennel be a catch all. This will give a command to send him to his space ao if he doesnt like the situation he can learn he can just leave.

In a side note my wife informed me last sunday of another event that she forgot to tell me about. Super brains of a coworker ignored all of my dogs barks, snaps, growls, and non vocal language and continued to pet my dog. My dog apparently held his hand until my wife got there to relocate the dog. Her coworker thought it was a game the entire time for some reason.

Next week is our public baseline and were meeting in a park. Pending how he acts with fresh strangers hes starting to learn that strangers dont equal mortal combat. Happy veterans day!


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

P.S. Were working on memory doubles. Only took him two tries to understand the concept. Ill keep using them in the evening to get some energy burned off before the end of the night.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for keeping us posted.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Small update. Took him hunting friday morning. It was 28 degrees and we had a bit of a walk through water. After I set up I took him back to the truck to warm up a bit since he was shivering pretty bad. He warmed up and we went back out. He interacted with 4 groups of 2 people at a time. Each time I had him sit and walked out 50 yards to the approaching hunters. Each time I got about 30 seconds into telling them to ignore him and making sure we werent setting up too close when I would hear him coming closer in the dark. I kept giving him a sit command and enforcing the noncompliance with the collar but it got to the point where I would watch his head turn from the collar and he kept running. When he finally got to me he was very vocal and the hunters walked away nonchalantly. He still didnt sit so I hit him again with the collar and got a help and compliance. The times after that first group he would still come straight to me through the collar but would sit when he got to me. Barked and growled but pretty much put up with them.

Started hunting but I couldnt compete with the 12 dozen decoys another group had. Still wanted to have him see what it was all about so I shot a coot swimming in front of me. Went to send the dog and he was 50 yards away looking back at me. I was warned some days he was gunshy (Ive shot next to him before and he just got sad when I missed.) I decided ok, soon as he gets this hes going to the truck. He wouldnt go for the coot so I waded out there while he swam next to me. He grabbed it when we got there and we headed back. As soon as his feet hit the ground he dropped the bird and wouldnt puck it back up so I grabbed it and headed to a level spot on the ground. Had him sit and told him fetch. He refused so I kept collar pressure on him for about 30 seconds and he unclenched his teeth and grabbed the bird. I made him hold it for 5 seconds and then grabbed the bird and put the dog away. I was also warned that when he gets it in his mind not to play, he wont play. I couldnt let him think not holding the coot was acceptable though. I put him back in the truck and cracked the windows so the sun wouldnt warm up the truck too much and left him there to melt the icecicles off his fur.

On the plus side he is becoming a better pet. Less rambunctious when he wants to play and it seems like hes figuring out his house roles better. Hope everyone had a good weekend.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Brent this gets more and more confusing. It is obvious, and I think I posted this earlier, you have huge holes in obedience that must be addressed. Secondly was this dog rehomed to you? Thirdly why did you not leash your dog and make him heel to greet the hunters. Why would you place the other hunters in danger when you obviously have no control on the dog. I think I could go on but I'm wondering if I am getting trolled on this thread.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Brent,

I hope the hands-on guidance from the behaviorist/professional is ongoing. It would be great if you would email this update to your behaviorist and then post his/her reply to this thread. 

If you quickly promise to do this, it may hold off the onslaught of criticism that is bound to follow.

These sorts of mistakes on your part are inhibiting progress and significantly increasing the probability of a bad outcome.

Jim


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Brent, no offense intended....but you need to keep your finger off the button. I find this really concerning.

If you were at my kennel training, I'd have YOUR transmitter in MY hand, and wouldn't be too likely to give it back any time soon.

Patience is your friend....no need to swat a bird on the water. Wait for the RIGHT situation, rather than trying to make something happen in the wrong situation.

And, said as a Chessie owner and breeder and trainer, it's not doing the breed any good to go out in public with an out of control problem dog, which unfortunately reinforces the poor opinion some people have of the breed, because they don't know the situation.


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## Bill Stoune (Jul 18, 2011)

this dog is gun shy too!! Oh my!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Either this dog was not actually in training for 6 months, or there is a huge disconnect between the dog and you. Did you buy him and were told he was trained? He sounds like an untrained dog.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Brent, you're killing me. So many issues that are serious. I'm very sensitive to how attached people get to their dogs and try to offer encouragement or something positive, even in dire circumstances, but I just don't see much upside in this dog. I think I would back off on the hunting at this point, find something that turns on the dog and go from there. Don't dig an even bigger hole by making hunting a no-fun experience. Concentrate on dealing with the aggression issues or find another dog.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Total agreement Nancy. The statements don't add up.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

ErinsEdge said:


> Either this dog was not actually in training for 6 months, or there is a huge disconnect between the dog and you. Did you buy him and were told he was trained? He sounds like an untrained dog.


Agreeing with this!


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

John Robinson said:


> Brent, you're killing me. So many issues that are serious. I'm very sensitive to how attached people get to their dogs and try to offer encouragement or something positive, even in dire circumstances, but I just don't see much upside in this dog. I


 Im wondering if this has less to do with the individual chessie, and more to do with how it was/is being trained.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

ChessieMom said:


> Im wondering if this has less to do with the individual chessie, and more to do with how it was/is being trained.


I agree. Some dogs are super tolerant to bad or poorly timed training and turn into fair hunting dogs despite the training, this dog isn't one of those. This dog needs an expert from top to bottom, someone who is very-very good at reading troubled dogs, comes up with a good plan, sticks to it and does a much better job of getting the owner on board with the overall strategy. Lots of follow up and in route corrections. I've got a really bad feeling about this one.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I see this as an owner not really knowing how to maintain whatever work was done on his dog.,this was evident in his video Dogs don't obey well or for any length of time when you grab them by the collar.,It doesn't have any thing to do with whether he is well trained or not. The OP is a poor handler . He has a huge learning curve.but he can learn like every body else here.,, I agree with Sharon ,,put the collar away. The OP needs to learn how to get the most from his hunting dog,,


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

I implied way early in this thread that the issues were with the owner and not the dog but was scuffed at. The dog was professionally trained, now is gun shy, then we shoot a coot. Not to mention is has Chessie rage. Either this thread is entirely made up or this guy is truly insane. Moderators can ban me if you want, but this guy is an idiot.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I've been keeping up with this from the start and no way this is for real.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Yep he is a playa and we been played.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

You guys are probably right, but his stories are so detailed and long, I can't imagine somebody putting that much work into the post to what end? Why do it unless it's one of us who is going to jump out at the end and say "April Fools!"


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Not to mention is has Chessie rage. Either this thread is entirely made up or this guy is truly insane. Moderators can ban me if you want, but this guy is an idiot.


The OP just needs to learn more.
What is chessie rage?
I know who the idiots are in this thread.
Pete


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## sick lids (Sep 25, 2012)

wraithen said:


> Small update. Took him hunting friday morning. It was 28 degrees and we had a bit of a walk through water. After I set up I took him back to the truck to warm up a bit since he was shivering pretty bad. He warmed up and we went back out. He interacted with 4 groups of 2 people at a time. Each time I had him sit and walked out 50 yards to the approaching hunters. Each time I got about 30 seconds into telling them to ignore him and making sure we werent setting up too close when I would hear him coming closer in the dark. I kept giving him a sit command and enforcing the noncompliance with the collar but it got to the point where I would watch his head turn from the collar and he kept running. When he finally got to me he was very vocal and the hunters walked away nonchalantly. He still didnt sit so I hit him again with the collar and got a help and compliance. The times after that first group he would still come straight to me through the collar but would sit when he got to me. Barked and growled but pretty much put up with them.
> 
> Started hunting but I couldnt compete with the 12 dozen decoys another group had. Still wanted to have him see what it was all about so I shot a coot swimming in front of me. Went to send the dog and he was 50 yards away looking back at me. I was warned some days he was gunshy (Ive shot next to him before and he just got sad when I missed.) I decided ok, soon as he gets this hes going to the truck. He wouldnt go for the coot so I waded out there while he swam next to me. He grabbed it when we got there and we headed back. As soon as his feet hit the ground he dropped the bird and wouldnt puck it back up so I grabbed it and headed to a level spot on the ground. Had him sit and told him fetch. He refused so I kept collar pressure on him for about 30 seconds and he unclenched his teeth and grabbed the bird. I made him hold it for 5 seconds and then grabbed the bird and put the dog away. I was also warned that when he gets it in his mind not to play, he wont play. I couldnt let him think not holding the coot was acceptable though. I put him back in the truck and cracked the windows so the sun wouldnt warm up the truck too much and left him there to melt the icecicles off his fur.
> 
> On the plus side he is becoming a better pet. Less rambunctious when he wants to play and it seems like hes figuring out his house roles better. Hope everyone had a good weekend.


Good way to get your dog shot! Take it out around strangers with guns....absolutely brilliant.


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

Pete said:


> The OP just needs to learn more.
> What is chessie rage?
> I know who the idiots are in this thread.
> Pete


Petey Boy

I mention "Chessie Rage" sarcastically because that was the original title of the thread. Thought you might be able to figure it out since you were the second poster to respond originally. Now we all know who the 2 idiots are on this thread.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

kansasclipper said:


> Petey Boy
> 
> I mention "Chessie Rage" sarcastically because that was the original title of the thread. Thought you might be able to figure it out since you were the second poster to respond originally. Now we all know who the 2 idiots are on this thread.


Pete, you know I'm as fair minded as anybody and have stood op for the Chessie breed numerous times on this thread, where some were trying to say the breed was the issue, but now I'm starting to wonder. Also the "Chessie Rage" thing was in the original title, not a very good thread title to start a calm reasoned discussion. I'm still leaning toward the OP being legit, and just some guy who is totally invested in the wrong (for him and family) dog. Somehow between him and his trainer he has dug a deep hole and he keeps digging. You say the OP needs to learn more, well he needs to learn a lot more, but I'm loosing faith in his ability to do it. Where is his pro through all this? He's in over his head and isn't getting the help he needs to fix it, if it can be fixed. Not all dogs are fixable.


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

John Robinson said:


> Pete, you know I'm as fair minded as anybody and have stood op for the Chessie breed numerous times on this thread, where some were trying to say the breed was the issue, but now I'm starting to wonder. Also the "Chessie Rage" thing was in the original title, not a very good thread title to start a calm reasoned discussion. I'm still leaning toward the OP being legit, and just some guy who is totally invested in the wrong (for him and family) dog. Somehow between him and his trainer he has dug a deep hole and he keeps digging. You say the OP needs to learn more, well he needs to learn a lot more, but I'm loosing faith in his ability to do it. Where is his pro through all this? He's in over his head and isn't getting the help he needs to fix it, if it can be fixed. Not all dogs are fixable.


I really feel sorry for the poor "Coot" in all this. The "Coot" died because some moron was suffering from "Dog Handling Rage".


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## kansasclipper (Mar 24, 2015)

wraithen said:


> Small update. Took him hunting friday morning. It was 28 degrees and we had a bit of a walk through water. After I set up I took him back to the truck to warm up a bit since he was shivering pretty bad. He warmed up and we went back out. He interacted with 4 groups of 2 people at a time. Each time I had him sit and walked out 50 yards to the approaching hunters. Each time I got about 30 seconds into telling them to ignore him and making sure we werent setting up too close when I would hear him coming closer in the dark. I kept giving him a sit command and enforcing the noncompliance with the collar but it got to the point where I would watch his head turn from the collar and he kept running. When he finally got to me he was very vocal and the hunters walked away nonchalantly. He still didnt sit so I hit him again with the collar and got a help and compliance. The times after that first group he would still come straight to me through the collar but would sit when he got to me. Barked and growled but pretty much put up with them.
> 
> Started hunting but I couldnt compete with the 12 dozen decoys another group had. Still wanted to have him see what it was all about so I shot a coot swimming in front of me. Went to send the dog and he was 50 yards away looking back at me. I was warned some days he was gunshy (Ive shot next to him before and he just got sad when I missed.) I decided ok, soon as he gets this hes going to the truck. He wouldnt go for the coot so I waded out there while he swam next to me. He grabbed it when we got there and we headed back. As soon as his feet hit the ground he dropped the bird and wouldnt puck it back up so I grabbed it and headed to a level spot on the ground. Had him sit and told him fetch. He refused so I kept collar pressure on him for about 30 seconds and he unclenched his teeth and grabbed the bird. I made him hold it for 5 seconds and then grabbed the bird and put the dog away. I was also warned that when he gets it in his mind not to play, he wont play. I couldnt let him think not holding the coot was acceptable though. I put him back in the truck and cracked the windows so the sun wouldnt warm up the truck too much and left him there to melt the icecicles off his fur.
> 
> On the plus side he is becoming a better pet. Less rambunctious when he wants to play and it seems like hes figuring out his house roles better. Hope everyone had a good weekend.


Now just read this crap. Icecicles(whatever this is), coots, gun shy, warming up in the truck, 30 seconds of collar pressure(don't they shut off after 5 seconds or so), chessie was shivering and its only 28 degree's, the poor coot, etc. You guys are really buying this?????? This guy is good!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Or did the poor Coot really die or was it just a character in a fiction novel? I'm still straddling the fence but certain anatomic parts are getting real uncomfortable.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

wraithen said:


> Small update. Took him hunting friday morning. It was 28 degrees and we had a bit of a walk through water. After I set up I took him back to the truck to warm up a bit since he was shivering pretty bad. He warmed up and we went back out. He interacted with 4 groups of 2 people at a time. Each time I had him sit and walked out 50 yards to the approaching hunters. Each time I got about 30 seconds into telling them to ignore him and making sure we werent setting up too close when I would hear him coming closer in the dark. I kept giving him a sit command and enforcing the noncompliance with the collar but it got to the point where I would watch his head turn from the collar and he kept running. When he finally got to me he was very vocal and the hunters walked away nonchalantly. He still didnt sit so I hit him again with the collar and got a help and compliance. The times after that first group he would still come straight to me through the collar but would sit when he got to me. Barked and growled but pretty much put up with them.
> 
> Started hunting but I couldnt compete with the 12 dozen decoys another group had. Still wanted to have him see what it was all about so I shot a coot swimming in front of me. Went to send the dog and he was 50 yards away looking back at me. I was warned some days he was gunshy (Ive shot next to him before and he just got sad when I missed.) I decided ok, soon as he gets this hes going to the truck. He wouldnt go for the coot so I waded out there while he swam next to me. He grabbed it when we got there and we headed back. As soon as his feet hit the ground he dropped the bird and wouldnt puck it back up so I grabbed it and headed to a level spot on the ground. Had him sit and told him fetch. He refused so I kept collar pressure on him for about 30 seconds and he unclenched his teeth and grabbed the bird. I made him hold it for 5 seconds and then grabbed the bird and put the dog away. I was also warned that when he gets it in his mind not to play, he wont play. I couldnt let him think not holding the coot was acceptable though. I put him back in the truck and cracked the windows so the sun wouldnt warm up the truck too much and left him there to melt the icecicles off his fur.
> 
> On the plus side he is becoming a better pet. Less rambunctious when he wants to play and it seems like hes figuring out his house roles better. Hope everyone had a good weekend.


All of this should sort out 'Chessie Rage' then? ..and if it's not breed related or specific to the 'expert breed experts opinions and experience' replied . 
And the 'Behaviourist visit' for aggression on strangers ?. Reckon it's a case for 'Randy Bohn' ! ..He will most probably advice you to ?..well you go figure .


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> On the plus side he is becoming a better pet. Less rambunctious when he wants to play and it seems like hes figuring out his house roles better.


So now he "got it" after his 30 second burn and is done with hunting, and is a better pet by osmosis or icicles or something.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> So now he "got it" after his 30 second burn and is done with hunting, and is a better pet by osmosis or icicles or something.


Is this still in the 'breeding' thing that was originally posted , and a breed specific topic?.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

John 
You have always been fair ,kind and informative, I doubt the the OP is a troll whatever that is. I will say this though I have successfully worked with dogs that make the OP's look like a girly man. Dogs that only have problems with strangers are generally easy to deal with. Strict obedience and management. Whether the OP is up for that who knows,,people are critical of him. I deal with a lot just like him. He needs to change his thinking more than the dog,,but he shouldn't be talked down to in my opinion.

Now Kansasclipper he's a different story. He sent me a juicy PM. and Called me Petey Boy so I think he has a crush on me.
Actually he sounds a lot like swampcollielover ,,


Pete


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm with Pete on this. The OP is real, this stuff is real too, although his perception of some of it is way off base. I've been corresponding with him.

My thoughts: I think Brent has more dog than he is able to handle with his experience level, but isn't willing to really sit down and face that for three reasons. First, he loves his dog. Second, he doesn't want to give up on his dog. Third, his ego won't allow him to admit that while somebody else may get along better with this dog, it's not too likely to work out the way he hopes (and from our conversations, I don't think it's really a bad dog, just not the right fit).


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

I honestly didnt expect the crowd at the marsh that was there. I was hoping the collar would keep him at bay. After the first two pairs of hunters he was leashed and sat by me and I used the collar when the sit command was disobeyed after hunters walked by.

Sharon, youre most likely entirely correct on all three points.

Behaviorist is scheduled for public interaction with the dog this coming saturday evening in a park so we can get random passersby.
After which, if I can continue to get positive results with the dog we will not meet again until my wife gets back in town to make sure she has a good handle on things. Just like with strangers only far less frequently, the dog will be gunshy and not want to deal with fetching birds. Havent seen him pass up a bumper yet. Im going out phaesant hunting in a spot I know it will be just the two of us. Trainer said he loves phaesants so he may end up being more of an upland dog. 

I keep the collar on him when we leave the house for any reason. I only turn on the collar and transmitter when he is off leash but at this point it only seems to work for distractionless sits when he gets bored and wants to play in the mud.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

Not everyone is a genuine dog guy, at least beyond pet level or with a less-than-super-easy dog. And try as you will with advice, you cannot pour a gallon of milk into a quart container.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Brent, just a note on using the collar: In the situation you describe, there is a fine line in proper timing between reinforcing a sit command vs. a dog wanting to growl at strangers. If the timing isn't correct, the dog can relate the collar stimulation to the person rather than your command...and that can very easily escalate aggression if it is present. It's not for novice hands. Be very, very careful, please....I'm a bit concerned about your behaviorist using the general public as "crash test dummies".

Gunshy is often very fixable. I did five this fall already. But it takes a lot of patience and a lot of birds.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> [I honestly didnt expect the crowd at the marsh that was there. I was hoping the collar would keep him at bay. After the first two pairs of hunters he was leashed and sat by me and I used the collar when the sit command was disobeyed after hunters walked by.
> 
> Sharon, youre most likely entirely correct on all three points.
> 
> ...


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

The dog was shot over. Ive seen someone right next to him shoot and he couldnt have cared less. 

Sharon, with the timing I think I understand what you are saying. The collar was not used with 20 feet of the strangers. I quit using it when he got close and grabbed him to sit. The strangers walked away. He got up from the sit and I used to collar again with a sit command.


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## Willie (Aug 15, 2014)

I thought our marshes were crowded. Sounds like it's a public sidewalk where you hunt.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow. A 30 second continuous burn?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> [The dog was shot over. Ive seen someone right next to him shoot and he couldnt have cared less./QUOTE]
> 
> You have seen someone shoot next to him? Umm who? Some stranger walked up to your dog and fired shot.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Brent,

This is really unfortunate, and most of it un-necessary. Please slow down, think, and make some major changes in what you are doing TO this poor dog.

Do you remember the whole part about the dog being indifferent towards strangers? Do you think that you telling him to sit and then you leaving him in the dark and going up and having a conversation with others, giving him e-collar stimulation when he's not guessing what you want and therefore doing what you think he should be, is in any way setting him up to be indifferent towards strangers?

You had a perfect opportunity for those strangers to treat him like he were a rock or a tree. Why? Because they were there in the dark and they were not there to interact with you or with your dog. They were there to mind their own business and go on a duck hunt. If you would have just left them alone and shown the dog by example that those folks are to be ignored, then you would have much better been working towards your stated goal.

By you going up and interacting with those people, you, once AGAIN, pointed your finger at the issue, got your dog jazzed up, and confused the heck out of him by trying to treat the remote control as if your dog were a TV and you were adjusting the volume or the channels. Stop using the e-collar like it's a remote to drive an RC vehicle or to change channels on TV. It's NOT.

If you take that dog pheasant hunting, start off leaving your gun in the truck. DON'T SHOOT. Let him get the intoxicating rush of real bird scent in his lungs. Let him enjoy being a dog. Don't nag him. Don't give him meaningless empty commands. And don't push that e-collar button for anything that even remotely feels like your wanting to "correct" him for trained behaviors that you think he should know. He clearly is confused and does not know much of anything right now. He surely does not know how to interact around you to avoid the insanity.

If you see others, IGNORE THEM! Don't point your finger at those people and set your dog up, again, for yet more stimulation and confusion. 

I believe that you are creating much of this all on your own. And the more you try to force this down the dog's throat, the more the dog is the victim.


Chris


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Very well said Chris. I kind of bowed out on giving advise because, frankly the whole situation is overwhelming to me. I believe the guy is a legit poster, not a troll. I believe he loves this dog and is invested in making this work, but he is not getting competent help and, being a newbie, he is making a lot of rookie mistakes. I also think he is way to scattered in his training, when the aggression issues first showed up I would have diverted all resources to dealing with that problem. Not solving that problem is a deal breaker for even keeping the dog.

The gun dog issues he has brought up, gun shy, refusal to go when sent, refusal to even retrieve are all enough to keep a training thread alive on RTF for weeks, IMO dealing with that should be put on the back burner for now, too confusing to the dog to be corrected right and left and seemingly set up for failure.

I hope Brent gets the help he needs before causing more damage.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Chris, everything youre saying makes sense and in hindsight it was dumb. My reasoning was warning the other hunters to ignore him but it seemed to cause more trouble than its worth.Pete, the guys that shot right next to my dog was the hunting buddy that jumped in the truck that my dog loved. The dog was sitting between us and we were about 8 feet apart. He perked up, ears forward trying to see the bird after the shot.Thinking through all this over and over again Im not going to hunt him at all anymore. We will still go out saturday to try and get on phaesants but Ill leave the hun at home. Ill also leave the ecallor off but Ill put him on it since he seems more confident with it than without. A check cord seems like a good idea but I dont want it to get tangled in everything.Looking at all of this Im pretty sure I know what derailed it all initially. Im dealing with more dog than Ive ever had to deal with before and its showing. I also think that sending this particular dog to any trainer was a bad idea, either due to his maturity level at the time or jusg who he is. One of my coworkers has my fowl dogs and ddb 1-3 and hes in a medical class so hes pretty much impossible to get to meet me to get it all back so Im just going to buy trt 2nd ed and start all over. I think this will help with getting us on the same page and fixing most of my issues. Im still using the behaviorist for the issue with strangers and wont abandon that.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Brent,

I think you mentioned previously that your behaviorist was going to use "functional rewards" (FR) in working with you and your dog. Have you learned something about implementing this approach?

I spent about 10 minutes reading about FR, so I may have this completely wrong. In addition to the other obedience and collar miscues of your hunting outing, I think you did the exact opposite of what you would want to try to achieve with FR.

Based on on post #208:



wraithen said:


> "... He interacted with 4 groups of 2 people at a time. Each time I had him sit and walked out 50 yards to the approaching hunters. Each time I got about 30 seconds into telling them to ignore him and making sure we werent setting up too close when I would hear him coming closer in the dark. I kept giving him a sit command and enforcing the noncompliance with the collar but it got to the point where I would watch his head turn from the collar and he kept running. *When he finally got to me he was very vocal and the hunters walked away nonchalantly.* He still didnt sit so I hit him again with the collar and got a help and compliance. The times after that first group he would still come straight to me through the collar but would sit when he got to me. *Barked and growled but pretty much put up with them*..."


and post #240:



wraithen said:


> The dog was shot over. Ive seen someone right next to him shoot and he couldnt have cared less.
> 
> Sharon, with the timing I think I understand what you are saying. The collar was not used with 20 feet of the strangers. I quit using it when he got close and grabbed him to sit. *The strangers walked away.* He got up from the sit and I used to collar again with a sit command.


Under my simplistic understanding of FR, your dog is reactive to strangers at some threshold (trigger). The dog perceives a threat or conflict and expresses reactive behavior (growl, bark, snap, etc). If the strangers withdraw, the dog perceives this as the functional reward of his reactive behavior. The dog perceived threat/conflict, reacted, and the threat went away. The growling is reinforced. This is what you practiced and reinforced in your encounter with the other hunters.

I think the goal with FR therapy is to create or teach an alternative reaction to the trigger situation. The alternative behavior is shaped so that the dog is choosing a different, preferable behavior while still experiencing the functional reward of the removal of threat/conflict. In terms of long-term behavioral change, this is very different from an approach that uses suppression or correction from you.

If you are paying a behaviorist, it would make sense to discuss this example in detail so that you understand and can begin to correctly practice the functional rewards approach.

Jim


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

kansasclipper said:


> I implied way early in this thread that the issues were with the owner and not the dog but was scuffed at. The dog was professionally trained, now is gun shy, then we shoot a coot. Not to mention is has Chessie rage. Either this thread is entirely made up or this guy is truly insane. Moderators can ban me if you want, but this guy is an idiot.


Golly Kansas, There's no need to challenge me or Vicky.

Please see your PM and email. It looks like you were last logged in about an hour ago on RTF, so you've likely read it by now.

I appreciate your frustration with the situation and I share it. There's a way to keep the communication worthwhile and productive that does not result in personal attacks, or you having to challenge me and Vicky to ban you. Right? 

Thanks, I'll wait to hear from you.

Also, for some reason your former account is now out of use. Let's get that all cleaned up privately and get all of your posts consolidated back into one account. 

You and I can discuss the proper username and other details.

Thanks, Chris


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

What Chris said. And what John said. Brent, you're kinda approaching this like a hummingbird on crack....going a million different directions all at once. Your dog needs consistency and stability, and he's not getting it. 

I'm also going to guess, based on what I'm reading, that he isn't gunshy as much as he is unstable, out of balance, and confused. All of which can be changed by calm and consistent handling.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

wraithen said:


> Chris, everything youre saying makes sense and in hindsight it was dumb. My reasoning was warning the other hunters to ignore him but it seemed to cause more trouble than its worth.Pete, the guys that shot right next to my dog was the hunting buddy that jumped in the truck that my dog loved. The dog was sitting between us and we were about 8 feet apart. He perked up, ears forward trying to see the bird after the shot.Thinking through all this over and over again Im not going to hunt him at all anymore. We will still go out saturday to try and get on phaesants but Ill leave the hun at home. Ill also leave the ecallor off but Ill put him on it since he seems more confident with it than without. A check cord seems like a good idea but I dont want it to get tangled in everything.Looking at all of this Im pretty sure I know what derailed it all initially. Im dealing with more dog than Ive ever had to deal with before and its showing. I also think that sending this particular dog to any trainer was a bad idea, either due to his maturity level at the time or jusg who he is. One of my coworkers has my fowl dogs and ddb 1-3 and hes in a medical class so hes pretty much impossible to get to meet me to get it all back so Im just going to buy trt 2nd ed and start all over. I think this will help with getting us on the same page and fixing most of my issues. Im still using the behaviorist for the issue with strangers and wont abandon that.


Slow down........

Don't be so knee-jerky......

I believe you are likely sending off all sorts of signals of desperation that just dig this guy deeper into his confused hole......


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

wraithen said:


> The dog was shot over. Ive seen someone right next to him shoot and he couldnt have cared less.
> 
> Sharon, with the timing I think I understand what you are saying. The collar was not used with 20 feet of the strangers. I quit using it when he got close and grabbed him to sit. The strangers walked away. He got up from the sit and I used to collar again with a sit command.


Brent, by timing I mean being able to read the dog. It has very little to do with his proximity to people.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Brent, by timing I mean being able to read the dog. It has very little to do with his proximity to people.


This is what I don't like about internet training advise other than simple black and white situations. Like you and others have posted, take our suggestions as helpful hints, but get a good expert there to help hand on with the dog. Timing a correction can't be taught over the internet, reading a dog can't be taught over the internet. I know if Pete, Chris, you or I were there in person we could read the whole situation much better and be more help. I think we all agree that the dog is confused and uncomfortable and the handler is trying to do too much all at once. He needs to simplify, avoid any gray area situations and focus on the aggression with people. Like I said if he can't fix that, or at least come up with a fail safe way to manage it, all the hunting dog training is moot.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

A new neighbor moved in a few houses from us. She has a mixed breed lab sized dog. I was out walking Rowdy and she was walking her dog. She passed by and asked "can my dog come over and get acquainted with your dog". I said, I would prefer not and kept on walking. Both dogs were on a leash. Rowdy's hackles were up slightly.

At a recent hunt test and coming off the line far enough to put my dog on lead. I stopped to talk with Dan Keilty who was in the queue with his dog on lead. He said my dog is a fighter and he just took a step toward you. So, I backed off and went on down the line.

My deceased dog Hudson would growl at people who got too close. If Terry Christopher was handling him, he would growl at him in the holding blind. He never bit anyone except Dan Keilty. If he saw or scented Dan from 50 yards away he would growl. Dan has been bit a lot. LOL! I just kept him on lead until we got wherever we were going (holding blind, boat, duck blind, etc). I never really asked him to greet and like strangers. He was fine with family members that he knew as a puppy. And kids. He adored Lexie, my grand daughter.

A couple of examples of my experiences.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Wayne Nutt said:


> A new neighbor moved in a few houses from us. She has a mixed breed lab sized dog. I was out walking Rowdy and she was walking her dog. She passed by and asked "can my dog come over and get acquainted with your dog". I said, I would prefer not and kept on walking. Both dogs were on a leash. Rowdy's hackles were up slightly.
> 
> At a recent hunt test and coming off the line far enough to put my dog on lead. I stopped to talk with Dan Keilty who was in the queue with his dog on lead. He said my dog is a fighter and he just took a step toward you. So, I backed off and went on down the line.
> 
> ...


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Sharon Potter said:


> Brent, by timing I mean being able to read the dog. It has very little to do with his proximity to people.


Got it. Ecollar will just be a weight for a while. Im hoping this next visit with the behaviorist can give me some more tools for this. I have a sidewalk nearby that people use with a wide mowed area on either side, I just dont want to use it until I have a better understanding of how to handle the dog around strangers. In laws come back sunday so he will have a fresh interaction with them and we can work on him learning to ignore house guests.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Brent, by timing I mean *being able to read the dog*. It has very little to do with his proximity to people.





wraithen said:


> Got it.


wraithen,Can I ask ? 
What is your understanding /interpretation of 'reading a dog' ?


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Knowing whats going on with them, generally by body language but also including where they are looking, whether they are panting for no other good reason. I didnt mean to imply that I knew how to do that well, just that I had misunderstood the use of the word timing.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

wraithen said:


> Got it. Ecollar will just be a weight for a while. Im hoping this next visit with the behaviorist can give me some more tools for this. I have a sidewalk nearby that people use with a wide mowed area on either side, I just dont want to use it until I have a better understanding of how to handle the dog around strangers. In laws come back sunday so he will have a fresh interaction with them and we can work on him learning to ignore house guests.


Is your behaviorist advising you to take dog out in public to see reaction? If so I would have them go with you and supervise/observe. It could reduce your liability if something goes south.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wraithen. 


Enough is enough. 

Please make an appointment with Sharon Potter. Please call off the pheasant hunt and the behaviorist. 

If if you can't go, fly your dog to her and visit her later. 

This is insanity otherwise. (Or contact one of the dog services like Katie's who is likely headed that way soon)

you are rapidly running out of internet lifelines of those willing to sincerely attempt to help your poor dog. 

chris


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## SmithJ (Nov 18, 2015)

I have been where you are my friend, and further. Having had personal experience that parallels yours-with a male of the same breed I feel compelled to reach out to you. I know you have been bombarded with a ton of information. Some good and some bad. This is certainly not an appropriate venue in which to try and diagnose complicated behavioural issues. I will not offer you any solutions. I can only offer you my version of a parallel situation, share with you the decisions I made, and describe the outcome. PM me if you are interested in a conversation. And yes, my story starts off with one not liking to ride in the car also.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Brian,
What do you want from this forum? 
Are you looking for Self-fulfilling prophecy?
Just asking…


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## Browndogs4me (Nov 18, 2015)

Wraithen, between this topic and another one you started on another forum it's pretty clear that your lack of knowledge is exacerbating your multiple problems with this dog. I am surprised that the breeder has not offered to take the dog back, which is the best option at this point, both for you and the dog. For the safety and well-being of everyone involved, please consider doing so ASAP.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Wraithen.
> 
> 
> Enough is enough.
> ...


I've been reading this thread since it's beginning. The whole time I've been reading it the above thoughts have been going through my mind. I'm not a Chessie person by any means but regardless of the breed this behavior is being exacerbated by the OP's lack of knowledge and fumbling around for a solution. Not his fault in any way so far. The above recommendation would be the best thing to come about for this dogs sake. I sincerely hope he adopts this course of action very very soon.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Been reading also and staying out of it.There is one thing that everyone needs to remember.After dealing with the public over 40 years I have learned that a very small percentage of individuals will actually listen and adhere to advice given by someone that has had lots of experience in what is going on.Doesnt matter whether its shooting instructions,dog handling.The small percentage that do (and most are youngsters or women)are successfull, the others go on with the insanity.I truly hope that Brent will listen and get this issue resolved. Jim


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Is today the day for the behaviorist?


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Yes duk. They brought a stranger. We walked around the park a block to get him to relax a bit. He got a little anxious when some kids playing ran around the playground we were near but he relaxed quickly as we kept walking. We then walked towards the stranger and I stopped ten paces short. Dog was whale eyed for a few seconds and then relaxed. We then walked up to the stranger and I shook his hand with absolutely no issues. Dog was a little uncomfortable but not to a degree that I could see. Behaviorist said he had a little whale eye for a few seconds but he sat there and relaxed. We then walked to a secluded area and took off his lead. I dat at a picnic table and had him sit next to me. Stranger came back up within 5 feet and the dog whined a little so we talked for a couple of minutes and the stranger took a sideways step closer. Dog layed at my feet. Stranger would take another small sideways step every thirty seconds or so until he was 6 inches from me and a foot from the dog. At that point the dog butt scooted over to sniff the stranger for about 30 seconds and then came back to me and sat. Then he got bored and layed down on my feet this time. He was claiming me so I put my legs over him and he just stayed there. We discussed different scenarios to work on. I got a pinch collar so if he sends signals I dont see or he goes 0 to 60 for some reason he will quickly self correct with my 4 foot lead. I keep him at a heel on lead so he would have maximum a foot to charge before he got to the end of where I normally hold the lead. I feel confident about taking him on the sidewalk trail now. If he alerts at all ( and Ill be looking for whale eye this time) then we will turn around and walk away. They showed me a lot of cues that Im missing when he is at a heel because I cant see much of him but I can now keep an eye on. 

Also found out one of my co workers runs pointer trials with DDs so Im going to have him help me see where Im mishandling. I know I was being too strict ( read nagging.) I know I was told to drop the behaviorist and I ignored that advice. It was very helpful for them to show me all the tells that I was missing. We will now wait until my wife gets in town and see if he reacts with her. His hunting season is over in order to work on all of this. Its seeming that the initial issue was him not knowing where he stood in our world and I continuously screwed things up trying to hurry up and fix them.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Good job Brent. Sounds like you are working to fix the mistakes you made. Hope to hear of continued forward progress.


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## quacksnracks (Feb 18, 2014)

wraithen said:


> Yes duk. They brought a stranger. We walked around the park a block to get him to relax a bit. He got a little anxious when some kids playing ran around the playground we were near but he relaxed quickly as we kept walking. We then walked towards the stranger and I stopped ten paces short. Dog was whale eyed for a few seconds and then relaxed. We then walked up to the stranger and I shook his hand with absolutely no issues. Dog was a little uncomfortable but not to a degree that I could see. Behaviorist said he had a little whale eye for a few seconds but he sat there and relaxed. We then walked to a secluded area and took off his lead. I dat at a picnic table and had him sit next to me. Stranger came back up within 5 feet and the dog whined a little so we talked for a couple of minutes and the stranger took a sideways step closer. Dog layed at my feet. Stranger would take another small sideways step every thirty seconds or so until he was 6 inches from me and a foot from the dog. At that point the dog butt scooted over to sniff the stranger for about 30 seconds and then came back to me and sat. Then he got bored and layed down on my feet this time. He was claiming me so I put my legs over him and he just stayed there. We discussed different scenarios to work on. I got a pinch collar so if he sends signals I dont see or he goes 0 to 60 for some reason he will quickly self correct with my 4 foot lead. I keep him at a heel on lead so he would have maximum a foot to charge before he got to the end of where I normally hold the lead. I feel confident about taking him on the sidewalk trail now. If he alerts at all ( and Ill be looking for whale eye this time) then we will turn around and walk away. They showed me a lot of cues that Im missing when he is at a heel because I cant see much of him but I can now keep an eye on.
> 
> Also found out one of my co workers runs pointer trials with DDs so Im going to have him help me see where Im mishandling. I know I was being too strict ( read nagging.) I know I was told to drop the behaviorist and I ignored that advice. It was very helpful for them to show me all the tells that I was missing. We will now wait until my wife gets in town and see if he reacts with her. His hunting season is over in order to work on all of this. Its seeming that the initial issue was him not knowing where he stood in our world and I continuously screwed things up trying to hurry up and fix them.


You already closed the dogs hunting season. you have a child. Just give the dog to some single guy in the middle of nowhere. Get a lab pup and have it ready by next season. No matter the progress you make, I still don't think you in your situation keeping your dog is at all wise.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

wraithen said:


> Yes duk. They brought a stranger. We walked around the park a block to get him to relax a bit. He got a little anxious when some kids playing ran around the playground we were near but he relaxed quickly as we kept walking. We then walked towards the stranger and I stopped ten paces short. Dog was whale eyed for a few seconds and then relaxed. We then walked up to the stranger and I shook his hand with absolutely no issues. Dog was a little uncomfortable but not to a degree that I could see. Behaviorist said he had a little whale eye for a few seconds but he sat there and relaxed. We then walked to a secluded area and took off his lead. I dat at a picnic table and had him sit next to me. Stranger came back up within 5 feet and the dog whined a little so we talked for a couple of minutes and the stranger took a sideways step closer. Dog layed at my feet. Stranger would take another small sideways step every thirty seconds or so until he was 6 inches from me and a foot from the dog. At that point the dog butt scooted over to sniff the stranger for about 30 seconds and then came back to me and sat. Then he got bored and layed down on my feet this time. He was claiming me so I put my legs over him and he just stayed there. We discussed different scenarios to work on. I got a pinch collar so if he sends signals I dont see or he goes 0 to 60 for some reason he will quickly self correct with my 4 foot lead. I keep him at a heel on lead so he would have maximum a foot to charge before he got to the end of where I normally hold the lead. I feel confident about taking him on the sidewalk trail now. If he alerts at all ( and Ill be looking for whale eye this time) then we will turn around and walk away. They showed me a lot of cues that Im missing when he is at a heel because I cant see much of him but I can now keep an eye on.
> 
> Also found out one of my co workers runs pointer trials with DDs so Im going to have him help me see where Im mishandling. I know I was being too strict ( read nagging.) I know I was told to drop the behaviorist and I ignored that advice. It was very helpful for them to show me all the tells that I was missing. We will now wait until my wife gets in town and see if he reacts with her. His hunting season is over in order to work on all of this. Its seeming that the initial issue was him not knowing where he stood in our world and I continuously screwed things up trying to hurry up and fix them.


Take it to PMs as suggested.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

BJGatley said:


> Take it to PMs as suggested.


If you don't want to read the thread, don't click on it.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> If you don't want to read the thread, don't click on it.


I didn't ask you for advice did I?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

BJGatley said:


> I didn't ask you for advice did I?


Nope. And wraithen didn't ask you for your unsolicited advice either...yet you gave it.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Nope. And wraithen didn't ask you for your unsolicited advice either...yet you gave it.


LOL..Are you wraithen?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

This thread has significant value
There may be other people reading it that are in a similar situation. .with a lab, a golden, a labradoodle ..


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Tobias said:


> This thread has significant value
> There may be other people reading it that are in a similar situation. .with a lab, a golden, a labradoodle ..


For Pete sake...This is the internet....
Would you like to buy some waterfront property in Arizona?  
To get real answers, go to those who know face to face and even that is not guarantee. OK?


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

quacksnracks said:


> You already closed the dogs hunting season. you have a child. Just give the dog to some single guy in the middle of nowhere. Get a lab pup and have it ready by next season. No matter the progress you make, I still don't think you in your situation keeping your dog is at all wise.


Having a dog ready for next season is a moot point unfortunately. Not too many ducks where Ill end up.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

wraithen said:


> Having a dog ready for next season is a moot point unfortunately. Not too many ducks where Ill end up.


Damn man...

I wish you the best. All of us in the hunting arena would like to share a blind with a companion who we can trust...
I hope that is with you without any sacrifices to your family.  
As I have said before....Family is first so that you can tell them of your adventures in the blind when that comes and they can fell confidant in having your trust. OK?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

My last post on this thread...

Brent,
You don't have to prove to us on this internet...prove to your family instead...they are more important...


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

BJGatley said:


> My last post on this thread...


Glad we've got that in writing.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Glad we've got that in writing.


You are an ass...OK?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> You are an ass...OK?


BJ ,may I call you BJ
I do get a kick out of your responses. Are you this weird in person?

my 2 cents.

Pete


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Pete said:


> BJ ,may I call you BJ
> I do get a kick out of your responses. Are you this weird in person?
> 
> my 2 cents.
> ...


No...It's a generation thing....

I think back in the radical 60s...
Hope that helps and I am not weird....well maybe to those who don't understand why in our generation...


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> No...It's a generation thing....
> 
> I think back in the radical 60s...:smile:
> Hope that helps and I am not weird....well maybe to those who don't understand why in our generation


I don't understand . can you explain it to me with some detail?
Pete


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Pete said:


> I don't understand . can you explain it to me with some detail?
> Pete


Discovery channel....A great resource on my kind on whom we are.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I like discovery the channel. Are you talking about the one where the people had odd internet behaviors . It was a good one. One of the guys could dish out silly advice,, but boy,,he couldn't take it. Did you see that one. 
Pete


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

wraithen said:


> I know I was being too strict ( read nagging.)


I've got to correct you on this. Nagging is not being strict. If you were being strict that would be demanding that your dog obey the first time and that would be a good thing. Nagging teaches your dog that he doesn't have to obey your commands until/unless he feels like it or until he decides that you mean it this time. Nagging is virtually the exact opposite of being strict.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Pete said:


> I like discovery the channel. Are you talking about the one where the people had odd internet behaviors . It was a good one. One of the guys could dish out silly advice,, but boy,,he couldn't take it. Did you see that one.
> Pete


Something like that. 
Read your signature...


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Your like the Riddler on bat man,, he wore way to much make up or was that the joker,I can't remember


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Pete, I think BJ is probably a pretty nice guy in person. It's my guess that it's just in the evenings when he's had a few too many adult beverages that he loses his cool.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I must admit I was wary of the advice given by the behaviorist, expecting cookies and clickers and big words. It sounds like they gave some pretty good advice and Brent is learning a new and more effective way to handle his dog. I sure hope this continues, the dog is at a crossroads and his future is at stake. It sounds like a lot of dog for a new handler; the dog might have gone through this stage uneventfully with an experienced owner, but this situation can still end up a success. Good work, Brent, for seeking help and trying to work through this, there are many who would simply have dumped a dog for this kind of situation. I would, however, caution you to continue to be extremely careful until the dog has proven himself, and limit his contact with children until he's well past this stage.


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> No...It's a generation thing....
> 
> I think back in the radical 60s...
> Hope that helps and I am not weird....well maybe to those who don't understand why in our generation...


Do these three letters ring a bell, LSD? Explains a lot.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Clint Watts said:


> Do these three letters ring a bell, LSD? Explains a lot.


I think you nailed it. Too weird for up in smoke


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think you nailed it. Too weird for up in smoke


HAHAHAHA... that is awesome.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> Brian,
> What do you want from this forum?
> Are you looking for Self-fulfilling prophecy?
> Just asking…


Who's Brian?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> My last post on this thread...
> 
> Brent,
> You don't have to prove to us on this internet...prove to your family instead...they are more important...


Liar Liar pants on fire.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> BJ. I hope you are more consistent in your communications with your dogs than you are with your internet fans.
> 
> No no more mail to my house ok? One hateful letter is enough.


I have no words but I'm sure BJ will about 10 pm.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Clint Watts said:


> Do these three letters ring a bell, LSD? Explains a lot.


Too funny
I was thinking booze.... but your theory makes a lot of sense


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Me personally I think we have hurt BJ's feelings and he is just blowing us off. Still a few hours before his replies should start showing up.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

So we did an intro with the inlaws today. I put a leash on him and let him out of his crate. I let him drink all the water he wanted and then put him at sit. I gave the command to heel and we walked to the back door. He sat, I unclipped the lead, and let him out. He wouldnt go potty even though I shut the curtains so I walked out, clipped the lead on, told him heel and took him back to his crate.

A couple hours later, after I put my daughter to bed, I left my inlaws at the dining room table (where we would have to walk within 2 feet of them), and got him out of his crate on lead. Did the heel thing to the backdoor and I wasnt even sure he realized they were there. To their credit they became perfect statues. I threw a couple of bumpers and my father in law wanted to smoke so I clipped the lead on and tied the dog to the rail and let my fil out. Dog didnt care about anything but the bumper in my hand so I handed it to my fil and told him to throw it. I could tell by the look in his eyes that my dog NEEDED that bumper so I unclipped him and sent him. He got it and came right back to give it to me so I sat him and took the bumper. Gave it to my fil and we did 2 more bumpers that way. I pleaded the still terrified mil to come outside with us and she finally did. I started the process over with her and my dog did the exact same thing as he did for my fil. Went and got and brought it happily to me.

He was good the entire time. I could tell he didnt necessarily like them but he couldnt care less about that when he was sitting waiting for them to throw the bumper. I was pleased so he got 2 hup hups and then I put him away. 

Im 75 percent that he would have been fine with them inside the house but thats not enough for me. Baby steps. Just like eating an elephant.

Pam, if my trainer would have reacted negatively to the sight of a pinch collar or encouraged treat and clickers I would have told them to pound sand. While they arent big on aggressive corrections, they do admit they know there are times and places even the evil ecollar is the correct tool. Just not for me at this juncture.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Wraithen,

My mind's eye tells me you are still pointing your finger at the problem.

If your goal is to have your dog indifferent towards your in-laws, it makes zero sense to have them throwing bumpers.

If the goal is to have them be a tree or a rock, I don't get it. Trees and rocks are something that sits still and is 100% uninvolved in the retrieve process.

You have once again tried to thrust this stuff down the dog's throat, in my opinion.

Chris


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## OTIS SANDERS (Apr 21, 2015)

Positive interaction is used commonly in all dog training. If this is a big stressful situation and everyone is on edge a chesapeake will smell it. Having a little fun can lighten everyone's attitude.

there are also dangerous bad dogs with loose screws that need to cross that rainbow bridge to chase birds in a happier place than this world.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

wraithen said:


> Having a dog ready for next season is a moot point unfortunately. Not too many ducks where Ill end up.


Wraithen,

Earlier you said where you are going there aren't many ducks. In one of your videos I thought I saw you wearing ACU pants. If that was correct are you being deployed? If so what are you going to do about your dog? Are you 100% positive that your wife will be able to assume your role and keep the dog in check at all times?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Clint Watts said:


> Do these three letters ring a bell, LSD? Explains a lot.


 LOL…
I don’t use LSD…never did. 
Back then, I would lose my clearance and would have a hard time getting back to the states from Tan Son Nhut or be in jail there.
Anyway…I do take pain killers now and then for a bad knee when I hunt too much.
Cheers…. 

PS...No pain killers today...knee is holding up...on the other hand dogs are out of it...Ran them hard.


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

So to update. My boy is doing much better now. He is protective of the house and yard, sometimes the car, and couldn't care less outside of those three. He is learning to use his nose more in the fields and woods. Last few weeks have flooded most of my waterfowl spots so I don't have access to them so we've been going field walking, it's like phesant hunting only without the phesants lol. I think he mostly just needed to figure out where his place was. It finally got cold here so I haven't been having a lot of interactions with people and him bit the few I have had he didn't feel threatened by anyone at all. He even let 3 people in a "house" crowd around my wife and daughter and his only reaction was to defecate next to the door. Now if only I could get him to stop acting like a cat when he wants attention...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

wraithen said:


> So to update. My boy is doing much better now. He is protective of the house and yard, sometimes the car, and couldn't care less outside of those three. He is learning to use his nose more in the fields and woods. Last few weeks have flooded most of my waterfowl spots so I don't have access to them so we've been going field walking, it's like phesant hunting only without the phesants lol. I think he mostly just needed to figure out where his place was. It finally got cold here so I haven't been having a lot of interactions with people _and him bit the few _I have had he didn't feel threatened by anyone at all. He even let 3 people in a "house" crowd around my wife and daughter and* his only reaction was to defecate next to the door*. Now if only I could get him to stop acting like a cat when he wants attention...


Was that first highlighted part a typo? He didn't bite anybody did he? Did he stress out and poop next to the door?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

wraithen said:


> So to update. My boy is doing much better now. He is protective of the house and yard, sometimes the car, and couldn't care less outside of those three. He is learning to use his nose more in the fields and woods. Last few weeks have flooded most of my waterfowl spots so I don't have access to them so we've been going field walking, it's like phesant hunting only without the phesants lol. I think he mostly just needed to figure out where his place was. It finally got cold here so I haven't been having a lot of interactions with people *and him bit the few I have had he didn't feel threatened by anyone at all.* He even let 3 people in a "house" crowd around my wife and daughter and his only reaction was to defecate next to the door. Now if only I could get him to stop acting like a cat when he wants attention...


What does this mean?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> What does this mean?


Shades of T-bond, we need Nutt to translate...


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

I think it was supposed to be "but".


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Tony Marshall said:


> I think it was supposed to be "but".


 You still need to change a few more words for it to make sense.


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

I have stayed out of this until now. But, your dog crapped on the floor when there were strangers with your wife and daughter and you don't recognize this as an indication that your dog was highly stressed in this situation? You are going to get someone hurt.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> You still need to change a few more words for it to make sense.


Really, just a comma or two and a "u": "... with people and him, but the few I have had, ...". Punctuation was invented for a reason.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

HPL said:


> Really, just a comma or two and a "u": "... with people and him, but the few I have had, ...". Punctuation was invented for a reason.


I see what you did there. I have a hard time deciphering license plates too. My wife is a genius at it, for a designer my brain is way too literal. I really couldn't make sense out of that sentence even with the change until you pointed out the punctuation.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Clint Watts said:


> Do these three letters ring a bell, LSD? Explains a lot.




Didn't hear any bells but did see a couple flash backs. Ahhhh the good ol' days, sure had a lot of fun. I missed the 60's but made up for it in the 70's.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> Was that first highlighted part a typo? He didn't bite anybody did he? Did he stress out and poop next to the door?



Sounds to me like he wasn't really stressed just acting like a cat that needed attention, because all cats crap at the door when they need attention right?? Glad I don't have cats..


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

I haven't read all the posts. 23+ pages as too much for my volunteer thoughts 
I watched the video though. The shake the dog is a offering is a calming signal. The dog is nervous and trying to bring the situtuation down. What I can't tell is who he is trying send that signal to. I would guess to you, but either way it's clear he is tying to say things. He does it several times. I'd have to watch again, but the dog seems to be staring staight at the videographer which is threatening. But the videographer is probably staring straight back. Which is also a threat to the dog. 

Did the trainer use the ear pinch. I have seen this cause hand shy issues in some dogs. Is the trainer in N. Georgia by any chance? Because I have seen almost this same thing... In a maturing male coming home from the trainer.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I almost never reply here, and I doubt this comment will be accepted anymore than the rest. The OP is in rigid denial of every suggestion he's been offered. Even his own it seems, (let pup totally ignore people, then have them throw bumpers?) Anyway, this is not a bad dog. Yet. But if the OP continues on this path, it is the dog that will surely suffer along with the unfortunate human Guinea pigs used for "training". Then you will have a very bad dog. Give him a chance at life and give him to a knowledgeable trainer with full disclosure of what has gone before.


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## nogie1717 (Sep 15, 2014)

Warning bells should be sounding if an otherwise house trained dog is so stressed by an interaction surrounding your family that it poops on the floor.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

nogie1717 said:


> Warning bells should be sounding if an otherwise house trained dog is so stressed by an interaction surrounding your family that it poops on the floor.


Yep, I feel bad for the dog. That's a lot of stress right there.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Anybody want an update on this dog?  Because he's been here with me for the last five months, and his family has spent the last three days here working with me and the dog...he's heading home with them tomorrow as a much different dog than the one that arrived back in December.  And he's a great example of why "internet training" rarely works well.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

THAT is GREAT news Sharon. What were your observations when you checked him in? and now?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Bridget, when he arrived I was cautious, of course, based on what I'd heard so far. 

Bottom line, this is not an aggressive dog at all....he is pretty much a bit of a coward and lacked self-confidence and trust. He needed a much different daily routine than he'd had in the past, which is now rectified going forward. His big issue was a direct reflection of his previous routine, and he needed to be a more balanced, level dog, which he now is. He's also fine around gunfire, retrieved a fresh bird for his owner today, ran some simple retrieving drills with Brent....easy things that don't take long and can be done every day in the back yard. It was all about building his confidence rather than trying to intimidate. He does not require much pressure or handle it well, and it shuts him down/scares him as he's a pretty soft dog, so my job...and now Brent's to continue....was to build his confidence so he enjoys the work and looks forward to it. Also, a very high standard of obedience helps him a lot and the dog likes the structure. 

The nice part is that he's a very easy dog to read. We have discussed the body language things that are the dog's "tells", and how to respond accordingly....and the owners are also learning to work with the dog more via body language as opposed to verbal, which keeps the emotion out of it. It has made a big difference.

Brent and I have had some difficult conversations, which Brent has been very accepting of and open to, even though I'm sure it wasn't easy to hear. I promised him I would be direct and not pull any punches, and I haven't, even when what I had to say was hard.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Good stuff Sharon!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Bridget, when he arrived I was cautious, of course, based on what I'd heard so far.
> 
> Bottom line, this is not an aggressive dog at all....he is pretty much a bit of a coward and lacked self-confidence and trust. He needed a much different daily routine than he'd had in the past, which is now rectified going forward. His big issue was a direct reflection of his previous routine, and he needed to be a more balanced, level dog, which he now is. He's also fine around gunfire, retrieved a fresh bird for his owner today, ran some simple retrieving drills with Brent....easy things that don't take long and can be done every day in the back yard. It was all about building his confidence rather than trying to intimidate. He does not require much pressure or handle it well, and it shuts him down/scares him as he's a pretty soft dog, so my job...and now Brent's to continue....was to build his confidence so he enjoys the work and looks forward to it. Also, a very high standard of obedience helps him a lot and the dog likes the structure.
> 
> ...


Seems like that's the scenario in many of the similar cases I see - right down to the direct, difficult to hear conversations. glad you were able to help him out Sharon!


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## wraithen (Dec 4, 2013)

Seems like that's the scenario in many of the similar cases I see - right down to the direct, difficult to hear conversations. glad you were able to help him out Sharon![/QUOTE]

It was more of a difficult thing to admit as one big factor was something I hadn't thought about. In being smug about not keeping a dog outside 24/7, I was keeping him crated for much too long every day thinking it was a better scenario. 

Bitter pills can be tough to swallow, but they fix more than a dose of sugar.

My other key issues were not picking up on signals my dog was sending me, and not being the alpha. I knew how to look like one through a firm hand, but now had a dog softer than my Mastiff. Completely different mindset was needed, as the old one was inappropriate. Still got a long way to go, but Sharon at least has me pointed in a good direction. Hopefully I can keep on the line shes sending me.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

What a great story! Thanks for the "happy ending" Sharon.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Very nice ending indeed. Thank you for sharing the outcome, Sharon.


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## ahud (Mar 19, 2015)

Enjoyed this read and the happy ending.


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## archer66 (Jul 23, 2012)

Awesome outcome.


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