# So! Dennis Voight



## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

So how did they solve NAFTCH FTC AFCH Mjolnir Bluebill Of Allanport's creeping problem? It would be interesting and educational to learn how Scott Adams not only solved the problem but went on to achieve the dog's Championships.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Why don't you ask Scott?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

The Snows said:


> Why don't you ask Scott?


Well Yeah!!


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

So what did Scott Adams do to solve or make better his dog's problem of creeping? I'm assuming that it was dealt with because he went on to get it's NAFTCH FTCH and AFTCH titles.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Cooper said:


> So how did they solve NAFTCH FTC AFCH Mjolnir Bluebill Of Allanport's creeping problem? It would be interesting and educational to learn how Scott Adams not only solved the problem but went on to achieve the dog's Championships.


Labber==The World is Waiting!!!


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Magic Beans


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Boys, boys , boys.....that ain't fair


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

hmmmm, I was there


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Scott Adams said:


> Magic Beans


I want them.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

So much for helpful answers. Maybe the reason for not answering is that the cure was very harsh.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Or his business and his dog. Maybe he did it with a clicker and treats.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Cooper said:


> So what did Scott Adams do to solve or make better his dog's problem of creeping? I'm assuming that it was dealt with because he went on to get it's NAFTCH FTCH and AFTCH titles.


I never did cure the creeping issue. I learned to manage it a little to make it possible to get through a trial, I avoided double staking him in Open & Am until his last few years.

I got a lot of great advice from people who had been around longer than me.No advice though, that hasn't already been given here on RTF or in Retrievers Online. But I will say that one EYE OPENING piece of advice was given to me at a trial by Dennis Voigt.
He told me, that I might as well (at this late point) accept the fact that Blue was a creeper, and that the priority should be patchwork. Find a solution, and it will last a short while. Then on to something else. He was dead on with this.
Like everyone else's creepers, Blue was rock steady in training, even if I traveled, and threw the odd flyer. Almost every training session, involved setups to try to erode control. Our training group was a great one, where everyone got to address the needs of an individual dog.

Blue was unpredictable as far as HOW bad he would be online in the 1st series. But not unpredictable as far as, WOULD he be bad? goes.
But as soon as he knew it was a blind we were after, he pretty much settled in and worked very well with me. In his last few years it was one of his strong suits. Because of trying to have control of him, I put a HUGE emphasis, (A little late) on obedience. from the kennel or house door, in the morning to the kennel or house door, in the afternoon, I did not give him an inch, for quite some time. This was the start of gaining his respect.

I believe that a part of the problem, was that his drive and desire for birds overwhelmed any obedience demands that were on him. Nothing else mattered. While there is a price to pay for that kind of dog, its a beautiful thing to watch your partner demonstrate what he has inside. Downside & upside to everything.
He was a creeper, but there were worse ones out there. This amateur with limited resources managed to work with it enough to see a little success. What's THAT say about the dog? Imagine if he'd been with an experienced AM or Pro.

The National win came just like so many others have said, about other Nationals. A combination of facts that played toward our strengths and away from our weaknesses.
Blue could be a standout on any given weekend, but there were dogs that week, that commanded more attention than us.
The nature of a national played to our favour, The fact that you are going to line once or twice in a day. I drove from home to Ancaster and back every day. About 1 hr each way. The heat was BRUTAL and I'm sure it slowed him up some. He was 9 yrs old. That helped.
After the 6th series land quad I thought we might be done. He was on auto pilot and could have used a passport.
But he came back with me for the rest of the trial.
They quit early that day because the temp was about 104F . About 5pm my son & I went to a nearby boat launch. The most exciting place in the world for my dogs, aside from a FT. I tossed bumpers and jumped in with the other dogs, while Blue honoured our fun. My son Jack was the task master. 
At the end he got a swim in the cool Niagara River. and I pushed Jack in.
I will never forget the last day of the 2011 National. He was the dog I knew he could be.

Don't give up on a talented creeper. It might be the best thing that ever happens to you.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Cooper said:


> So much for helpful answers. Maybe the reason for not answering is that the cure was very harsh.


You wrote this while I was typing. I was at work last night and didn't have time for a worthwhile response. A sense of humour can be a good thing......
Lots of people believe that harshness ids the answer and some believe that I am heavy handed. They can't believe there is any other way.
I did try everything, but what worked for me was not harshness, It wasn't until I gave up on that, that I found the solution. Be smarter than that.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Really good post Scott. I get what that dog meant to you and the journey you shared. Many times they teach us more than we teach them.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks Scott, that was an excellent response. Like Dennis Voigt and all of the rest of us serious trainers, we are on the constant look for better solutions to our training problems. I have had several of these types of dogs and you can rap them on the rear with your heeling stick and they don't even feel it because they are so locked in and focused on the retrieves. Like you say they can be a pain in the ass but they look good even when they are doing bad. I didn't think there would be any magic beans and the help Dennis provided you so far is the only answer I know of. Even with their problems you can't help but love them. Thanks again for your response.


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

Scott Adams said:


> * ...what worked for me was not harshness, It wasn't until I gave up on that, that I found the solution. Be smarter than that*.


I think that I'm going to get that printed on a t-shirt and wear it during training.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Ron, Porter getting on your case again. It's hard training owners!



Jeff


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for your response Scott. Many of us must live with the creepers we created. Few will ever experience your success.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

I wish the title of this thread could be changed-and I don't mean the spelling of my name. This thread is about Scott and "Blue" and what they did.

However, now that Scott has responded, I would like to add. I was at that National. It was the most demanding "dog management National I have ever been at: Kudos Scott! 

Day-times high were over 100 and night-time was not much relief. You could not do any extra work and barely wanted to walk your dog-just head for the air conditioning and hope to relax your dog. For dogs like Blue and the dog that I finished with, this was not a good situation. I had a bag of 'magic' beans just like Scott (maybe the wrong brand that week?) but I could not use them. 

My dog finished that National in good shape without a handle but I knew he would never win even as I walked to the 10th and knew he would creep so badly. AND he did. This dog was always a rock and roller but with so much talent (out of NFTCH NAFCH and brother to a NFTCH and NAFTCH) that I accepted the challenge early on. I believe that single National reinforced his rewards at trials all week without reinforcement or correction so much that he was forever destined to be unreliable. later, I tried many things, besides magic beans, including some long periods of rehab. He responded with spectacular performances, a title, perfect undoable test and DISASTER days. He finished another National with great work-no handles- but terrible land manners-30 feet out front in the 10th on an intimidating water quad that tool 20-25 minutes. I have a witness of a 700 yard pursuit of a cripple across a lake-had to go get him the boat because I feared for his life! He wowed folks at Workshops and in training but he became so trial-wise he was so frustrating. He broke on a first series at a National and finished the next. The following he broke on an honour on the 3rd!! I retired him.

Two weeks earlier I had filmed him for my DVD 25 Essential Drills-You can see him there (black collar dog-Obe) being somewhat OK on OB. He smoked things like the Swim-by tune-up for Advanced dogs that it was not worth showing! 

I do not regret this dog for one instance. Did I love him -of course-he is at my feet now. Do I want another? NO unless he is more a team player. Was it my fault-YES to a certain extent! I did not campaign him early on at all because I knew what I had. Did I adjust to his trial reinforcement-obviously not enough. Would I do things differently? YES. I think the early Hillmann work is ideal for these dogs and wish I had tried with him!. 

*BUT IF YOU HAVE HIGH POWER DOGS (HMNN-THINK CHOPPER FOR ME!) THEN BEWARE THE TRIAL REINFORCEMENT CAN UN-DO ALL IN A FLASH! You have to be SO VIGILANT!
*
I have a great dog now that still snuck in on me in that department. I still have hope because I am still learning!

*So "Scott and Blue" are a tremendous lesson. *

The Amateur who works and studies. Accepts the ups and downs. Recognizes great talent and persists (I think Blue showed MUCH talent early on, had a price on his head and purchasable but was identified as a wild one)! 

Scott deserves tremendous credit for what happened. He learned a lesson in the end that I also have:

*"These dogs deserve much more than harsh solutions!! These super desire dogs deserve our respect even if they can't be the team players we want!"

THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS!

*Cheers

PS. My answer to "So Dennis Voigt"


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## Shields (Jun 2, 2010)

Best two rtf posts I have read in a very long time. Kudos, gentlemen.

Eric


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## krakadawn (Jan 8, 2006)

" I have a witness of a 700 yard pursuit "

Geez, what a set up, that's me although the distance is incorrect, it was 800 yards with the range finder. First let me add to the comments about Blue. I have judged the dog numerous times, I have run against him many times since 2003 when he was a Junior(derby) dog and then with numerous All Age stakes and several Nationals. These are exciting dogs to watch, certainly easier on the watcher's blood pressure than the handler's for sure.

I recall being second in a Junior in Niagara those many years ago. You guessed it Blue won it!

I concur about that National he won, I have never had to run in that level of heat we had and one would think the hard chargers would not do well with such high temperatures but he did......Great dog!

Now the 800 yard retrieve......
Three guys, three dogs on a cold November day in Lake Ontario shooting divers. Bird in question was a mallard that was belly up outside the decoys, dog is sent, gets within four feet and duck recovers. The race is on, dog behind a fast swimming/diving duck, am sure many have experienced this in hunting. Needless to say collars and whistles seem to lose their effect under certain conditions....even for well trained retrievers!!! At about the 500 yard mark the duck and dog begin to head an island, the handler at that point is in the boat on his way. Shortly there after they all arrive at an island and everything is safe although I'll leave out further details to protect the innocent.

Just another duck dog that found his way to the end of a National although steadiness could at times be in question............


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Great read Scott
Thanks for sharing


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

krakadawn said:


> " I have a witness of a 700 yard pursuit "
> 
> At about the 500 yard mark the duck and dog begin to head an island, the handler at that point is in the boat on his way. Shortly there after they all arrive at an island and everything is safe although I'll leave out further details to protect the innocent.
> 
> Just another duck dog that found his way to the end of a National although steadiness could at times be in question............



OK I won't protect the innocent since it is no refection on the dog!

"The duck makes it to the island but so does OBE! Bird in the bag! I smile. Surprisingly long quest and then I see Obe crashing back into water with duck in front. A dive/splash/ snatch pursuit in the reeds and Obe has I,t albeit just barely. He swims to the boat. I reach over, push on the back of his neck, so he can lever into the Lund. He does and duck wiggles back into deep water!
*
NEVER SEEN AGAIN!

Best unsuccessful retrieve I will ever have in my life!!*


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

*FYI "BLUE" was a great duck dog too!!*


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Excellent thread folks. 
We all know or at least know that there are only two things that are guarantee in our life….Taxes and death. 
The rest depends on us and how we proceed through learning and that in itself is a lifelong process. It gives us reason I believe to have a very good reason to eagerly anticipate the next day full of intentions met or not. If we keep a positive attitude on that day, that will weigh in on the next day and the next.
Lastly…Our dogs feed off that attitude good or bad.


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## rocko (Sep 26, 2007)

Blue sure was a special one!!

This thread brings back memories.....Found this photo in my archives!


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Love that picture! This was the team that played such a big part of that special win. Through thick & thin, always there.
there were others earlier on as well.
The guys threw Blue & I a surprise BBQ soon after, where this photo was taken.
Duck poppers, & Perch & Walleye fillets.
I'm a pretty lucky guy.
Ya gotta love a good duck dog!




rocko said:


> Blue sure was a special one!!
> 
> This thread brings back memories.....Found this photo in my archives!


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

rocko said:


> Blue sure was a special one!!
> 
> This thread brings back memories.....Found this photo in my archives!


HEY .... I recognize those guys! Great photo!

We bred to Blue and think we ended up with some pretty special pups! The female we kept is an absolute pistol ... Nothing is done at a slow speed! All I can say is you better have your whistle in your mouth, ready to go when you get to the line! ;-)


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Scott Adams said:


> I never did cure the creeping issue. I learned to manage it a little to make it possible to get through a trial, I avoided double staking him in Open & Am until his last few years.
> 
> I got a lot of great advice from people who had been around longer than me.No advice though, that hasn't already been given here on RTF or in Retrievers Online. But I will say that one EYE OPENING piece of advice was given to me at a trial by Dennis Voigt.
> He told me, that I might as well (at this late point) accept the fact that Blue was a creeper, and that the priority should be patchwork. Find a solution, and it will last a short while. Then on to something else. He was dead on with this.
> ...


Great post thank you for sharing!


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

The Snows said:


> HEY .... I recognize those guys! Great photo!
> 
> We bred to Blue and think we ended up with some pretty special pups! The female we kept is an absolute pistol ... Nothing is done at a slow speed! All I can say is you better have your whistle in your mouth, ready to go when you get to the line! ;-)


You are the smartest breeder that I know!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Scott Adams said:


> You are the smartest breeder that I know!


I'm a big fan of the Snows. They are also neighbors of my cousin Alexander Keith. I miss when we all would meet at weekend events when I lived on the East Coast!

Scott, do you have a littermate to Chris/Sue's pup out of this litter?

-Chris

Edit...I guess I should have written "neighbours" eh?


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Great to talk with you last night Chris.
Sue & Chris bred their great hunt test dog Gee, to Blue & then repeated 1 year later.
I hadn't tested Blue for coat color. I just assumed that he threw yellow. Others felt that he likely did not.
The first litter was all black. With the second litter, the last dog out was yellow!
A big handsome boy.
Great people like the Snows don't happen into ones life often enough.

I entered him in 3 Quals last year, and he placed in each one. I entered him in the last amateur of the year in my area.
He went out on the WB. I've been pretty happy with him lately.

Here's a few photo's of Port (My pup and a littermate to Sue's dog Ruby, who may be bred soon)


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Scott, How about posting up one of those hunting pictures with Blue and some green? Harry


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

I also can atest to the incredible team work of Scott and Blue during that National. The conditions were beyond extreme. Karma and I went out in the 7th and I was almost relieved to not have to go back to line for the 8th. Scott worked tirelessly all week with the committee making the National run as smooth as possible. I remember him being the last back to the worker party after moving the Toilets once again. Very very distasteful job but he did it smiling. I remember the 6th...and seeing Scott in the morning after his "training session" at the boat launch. The team building of the foresight to do that was incredible. It make me a believer in thinking outside the box for problem solving.

I hope all reading this thread also take the important lesson of ballance in these fine dogs lives. Take them hunting and they will astound You. Have a book of stories from my own dogs already.

Gar


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Seriously, Your cousins name is Alexander Keith? Makes me wonder if I'm related to Samuel Adams.

Thanks to everyone that has said such nice things about Blue & I. It wasn't all blue skies and daffodils lots of dogs have earned more all-age points in one season than we did throughout his career, but I've never measured my success or failure against anyone but myself. What made his success so meaningful to me was the greatness that we competed against. When you hear the tired old complaints of snobbery or cliques in the FT game, it makes me think, how sad if that was their experience, when mine has been so good. Its a strange thing and hard to accept, that he has been gone for a month now.

Because you asked, Harry,,,,,,,
I don't mind one bit.
















Black, Jack N Blue








My all time favourite photo of Blue.










Connie Swanson painted this portrait of Blue as she does for Cdn National Open & Am winners.
It could not be more perfect or more important to me, especially now.

















Thanks for letting me indulge.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks Scott & Dennis great posts. Thanks for the pics too!


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

very enjoyable read........Congratulations Scott and Blue.


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## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> He learned a lesson in the end that I also have:
> 
> *"These dogs deserve much more than harsh solutions!! These super desire dogs deserve our respect even if they can't be the team players we want!"
> 
> ...


So many people need to read this on a daily basis until they believe it and live it. 
So many people want to "fix" the fire breathers, by brute force. 

I'm tired of ignorant suggestions I sometimes receive to "fix" my high rolling creeper.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I quit trying to "fix" my wild man about 3 years ago. As a green handler with limited resources of land and training groups, I finally realized it was never going to be completely done. In some ways it is sad, as I will likely never have such a dog again. On the other hand, since I gave up trying to fix him, we have run two trials (Q only) and had an absolute blast, even if we continue to go out on the water blind.. (totally my fault each time). Years ago, when I was still trying everything to gain control, a very kind person here on RTF said to me, "Don't beat yourself up so bad, some dogs just come this way". She was right, and I could not live with myself if I had employed harsh methods recommended on this dog. If I ever had another like him, I would go with Hillman's methods from the get-go. He is my best bud and best house dog ever. And he still makes my heart race when he heads out for the flyer!


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

This has been a great read. Lots of respect and appreciation for a good dog. Sounds like Blue gave you everything he had and you accepted the things you couldn't "fix" and rolled with the dog you had. Scott, Port is a lucky dog to have you.

M


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## lgfcorbeil (Mar 10, 2012)

Great read. Spoke with Scott on the phone tonight and said I would be able to relate to this post. I was coming off line this summer at the Canadian Nat. Am with my "creeper" Scott looked at me and said "oh man, I know what you are going through, but don't give up". We got interrupted and never did get to carry on the conversation at the National.However, we spoke a few times after on the phone and I had some great conversations with Scott about the issues he worked through with Blue. I used a lot of Scott's advice and have seen excellent results. I have not "fixed" the problem or "changed" the dog, but to echo Scott and Dennis, have found some techniques that are working for now and have learned a little more about managing the dog that I have.

Boyd


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

This has become a long read and very uplifting. At the end I recall this statement:

"drive and desire for birds overwhelmed any obedience demands"

Hundreds of post here blame poor OB for problems. OB and Drive are always at odds. Trainers have to be the mediators.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Gauge, I think you are right, to a certain extent. Had I appreciated then, what I do now, he might not have been such a creeper. Maybe.
I have seen some great trainers, both amateur & professional, that have dogs that creep, or are unreliable, re breaking.
This caused me to not be so hard on myself. Sometimes the dog you have, is the dog you have, and you throw in the towel, or learn to deal with it, or decide that you just don't want to deal with it.
Maybe others who have had to manage that kind of dog will chime in to agree or disagree.


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