# What do you do to protect yourself from loose dogs?



## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

I live in a small city and must walk the dogs in the neighborhood on occasion. It's a nice middle class/working class neighborhood. We have been rushed several times in the past year by neighbor dogs and had a near miss with a pit bull last week. Thank god the owner heard me yelling. I have not walked in the neighborhood since. I try to stand up tall and tell these dogs no or go home in a confident, authoritative voice but some are just nuts.

The near neighbors it's happened with keep a better eye on their dogs or take them out on a leash but you never know when there's a new one in the neighborhood.

Does mace or pepper spray really work on a highly aroused charging dog? I've even considered getting my pistol permit. I would not have thought twice about taking that pit bull off line.


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> I live in a small city and must walk the dogs in the neighborhood on occasion. It's a nice middle class/working class neighborhood. We have been rushed several times in the past year by neighbor dogs and had a near miss with a pit bull last week. Thank god the owner heard me yelling. I have not walked in the neighborhood since. I try to stand up tall and tell these dogs no or go home in a confident, authoritative voice but some are just nuts.
> 
> The near neighbors it's happened with keep a better eye on their dogs or take them out on a leash but you never know when there's a new one in the neighborhood.
> 
> Does mace or pepper spray really work on a highly aroused charging dog? I've even considered getting my pistol permit. I would not have thought twice about taking that pit bull off line.


You can buy pepper spray for bears. I would assume it would work on a dog.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

They get to close or come at the dog they are gonna get a kick and they best head the other way. Don't see why pepper spray wouldn't work. I just don't put up with it anymore.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Squirt gun or spray bottle with ammonia/water mix, hit the face/eyes, they won't come near you after that and easy to carry.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Hoosier said:


> You can buy pepper spray for bears. I would assume it would work on a dog.


He He,,,,If you get that close to a bear you might as well spray it on yourself and add alittle salt........


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Pepper spray, tends to get on you and your dog too!

I would go with electricity first and have lead with me, if it was legal.


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## Normal (Aug 4, 2003)

I jog with my lab and have had a couple minor encounters with a dogs that ran out at us (no pit bulls or rotties though). Although I don't know for sure what would have / might have happened (if i did nothing), I just go with a stern "no", don't break our stride and keep moving. That usually works. The two times it didn't, I have given a 'boot' - not with intent to hurt/injure, but to deflect / redirect them. It has always worked, so far at least. A vet or Dr. bill is too easy to happen - its also not fair to my dog IMO to let her potentially get attacked when she is heeling, acting appropriately, and a dog comes out of 'nowhere'.

That said, I have recently wondered WTF I would do if a PBT or rottie etc. would come after us. I don't know how I could possibly defend both myself and my dog.


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## Larry64 (Aug 19, 2009)

I use pepper spray on my bike. It works but I do have a CCW and pulled it on a Pit once. The owner came running and I didn't fire.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> I live in a small city and must walk the dogs in the neighborhood on occasion. It's a nice middle class/working class neighborhood. We have been rushed several times in the past year by neighbor dogs and had a near miss with a pit bull last week. Thank god the owner heard me yelling. I have not walked in the neighborhood since. I try to stand up tall and tell these dogs no or go home in a confident, authoritative voice but some are just nuts.
> 
> The near neighbors it's happened with keep a better eye on their dogs or take them out on a leash but you never know when there's a new one in the neighborhood.
> 
> Does mace or pepper spray really work on a highly aroused charging dog? I've even considered getting my pistol permit. I would not have thought twice about taking that pit bull off line.


I have the same problem as I live in NYC. It always seems that those who own the aggressive breeds are the irresponsible ones.

I take my springer and golden for a long walk EARLY in the morning and LATE at night. It's part of my workout and I avoid other dogs. Other walks are close by. It's in and out of the house and avoidance of the problem dogs.


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

Hot in the summer, but very effective. Can't wait for the realtree camo version.


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

Pepper spray works. Buy two bottles and practice a few times with one. They usually squirt a straight stream, sort of like a squirt gun rather than a spray like a spray bottle does.

Same problem here. I decided I didn't want to shoot one and start some kind of war with the neighbors because my dogs would be vulnerable to some kind of retaliation. I almost did shoot one, but had time to think about potential consequences from psycho owners. The law wouldn't care, but you never know what kind of idiot owns the dog. 

So I discovered Pepper spray does work.


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

dnf777 said:


> Hot in the summer, but very effective. Can't wait for the realtree camo version.


I want the pink cammo version.

Always a wise guy in every bunch!


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

We started packing the heel stick. I also have Gunner's e-collar on because he's pretty responsive when a dog rushes us (that's putting it mildly). Brad has swatted two dogs away with it, all it took was a mild tap on the rump and the dog turned away. 

I don't use pepper spray because I have a 7 year old walking one dog and I don't want her to get hit by spray. We've had some nasty dogs come out at us, despite a leash law. I spoke to an officer at a safety event this weekend, and he told me that I can write down addresses and bring them in and they'll attempt to make contact. The problem is many of the dogs are not at a specific address, rather running loose. I told him that I pack a heel stick (riding crop) and use that to defend myself and he said that was fine.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I have had mine rushed by a pit bull twice. Once the owner was able to call the dog back. The other time a pit-mix charged and had drawn blood from my dog, and a fiberglass rod type heeling stick swung as hard as possible right across the eyes/bridge of the nose put the pit on the ground, and it hauled tail. Animal control got that dog the next day after a couple phone calls alerting them.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

bear spray is overkill - i have 2 cans and have practice-sprayed it. you will likely get it on yourself and your dog. plus its like $70 per can.

the ammonia water or smaller mace cans sound doable to me. my dog and i got charged by a loose dog last year. my carbon fiber camera monopod with Wimberly head makes a very nice, light, and formidable battle club!


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Fowl Play WA said:


> We started packing the heel stick. I also have Gunner's e-collar on because he's pretty responsive when a dog rushes us (that's putting it mildly). Brad has swatted two dogs away with it, all it took was a mild tap on the rump and the dog turned away.
> 
> I don't use pepper spray because I have a 7 year old walking one dog and I don't want her to get hit by spray. We've had some nasty dogs come out at us, despite a leash law. I spoke to an officer at a safety event this weekend, and he told me that I can write down addresses and bring them in and they'll attempt to make contact. The problem is many of the dogs are not at a specific address, rather running loose. I told him that I pack a heel stick (riding crop) and use that to defend myself and he said that was fine.


 
You may want to look at the E-collar thing. We hunted with another guy that had a dog that was overly protective and would lash out at other dogs. When using the E collar it only made things even higher as the dog thought the pain was coming from the other dog and made the problem worse. I am thinking your dog going after a pit would then trigger the pit and it would be a serious fight that you would end up injured trying to break up.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Since you ARE walking , a sturdy , stout walking stick seems to be the way to go . If walking a dog with each hand , you may want to cut the distance in 1/2 and walk one dog at a time .Err on the side of caution .
Or the sling shot.Marble up .


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## redleg06 (Jan 28, 2008)

Im might get blasted for this but...

Im assuming none of you that have posted to this point have ever been on or seen a hog hunt where they use pittbulls as "catch dogs" and seen what kind of pain those dogs are seemingly immune to when they decide to attack. I wouldnt trust my safety or that of my dog to a spray bottle or pepper spray. 

If its a serious concern for the area you walk in then I would either find somewhere else to walk or have a very large walking stick or get your CHL license and know how to competently use the gun to protect yourself.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Steve Amrein said:


> You may want to look at the E-collar thing. We hunted with another guy that had a dog that was overly protective and would lash out at other dogs. When using the E collar it only made things even higher as the dog thought the pain was coming from the other dog and made the problem worse. I am thinking your dog going after a pit would then trigger the pit and it would be a serious fight that you would end up injured trying to break up.


I use the collar before he reacts. I tell him heel or leave it, or something similar, and correct as necessary. This has been something that we have worked with our trainer on very closely (and the reason he is not a 4-H dog) and I trust my trainer's advice (despite his wierdness from time to time;-)). So far the corrections before a reaction have prevented any problems.


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## Reminton Steele (Nov 10, 2007)

A 3 or 4 iron just pretend your our practicing your swing while walking your dog. I had a lady out walking her dog (sheppard/husky) can your dog play. The dog growled at me and I said hmmm no.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

A woman in my neighborhood walks her dog with a 30" fish-billy (looks like a fish-billy anyway) dangling from her wrist on a lanyard. Probably smart. Stiff enough to poke, long enough to keep an advancing dog at a distance and heavy enough to leave a memorable impression.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

A Louisville Slugger works well! I can't imagine that most parts of Connecticut (and NYC) aren't subject to leash laws. If it is a recurring problem, call the police. Either the dog(s) get restrained or they get confiscated!


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> I live in a small city and must walk the dogs in the neighborhood on occasion. It's a nice middle class/working class neighborhood.
> 
> We have been rushed several times in the past year by neighbor dogs and had a near miss with a pit bull last week. Thank god the owner heard me yelling.
> 
> Does mace or pepper spray really work on a highly aroused charging dog? I've even considered getting my pistol permit. I would not have thought twice about taking that pit bull off line.



The problem with pepper spray is you could injure the dog's eyes. (probably not a concern if you're contemplating shooting him!). So take a (pepper spray, mace) class, speak with animal control, canine police dog trainers on how they would handle the situation (ie- Spray, wiffle bat, etc.) A pistol -- someone across the street could get shot. Also, is that legal in your state? Plus, the owners may seek physical revenge. 

You need to revisit the neighborhood without your dogs, identify the homes of these "attack" dogs, call animal control and file a complaint! Work with the laws on the books!

I know this forum wants to resist regulation. But if owners cannot keep their dogs trained and safely in a yard, they need to be cited, fined, perhaps have their dogs taken away. Period! 

Pit bulls ... I am all for that breed being banned. No one should have to worry about their dogs being charged by a pit bull! 

Good luck


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Not for the faint of heart; 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-08-18-wild-dogs_N.htm?obref=obinsite
________
Pregnancy Forums


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## atkins72 (Jun 17, 2009)

Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> Pit bulls ... I am all for that breed being banned. No one should have to worry about their dogs being charged by a pit bull!
> 
> Good luck


The dogs are not the problem. The owners are. My cousin has two pits. They are the sweetest most loyal and well trained dogs I have been around. They will be defensive, but would never attack un-provoked. 

Education of the owners is going to be more important than banning a breed. The types of people with problem pits are not going to heed the law anyway. 

That being said if it is legal to carry a gun I would but only use it as a last resort. I carry several things with me while walking my dog. 
1. A very bright sure fire flashlight: in the dark this has stopped several charging dogs dead in their tracks. It stopped a guy who was going to rob me one night as well. 
2. A 3ft piece of bamboo about 1.5" in diameter. It is light and hits very hard, if it brakes it always breaks with a sharp edge that can be used to stab a dog that was not repelled by the first blow. 
3. A pocket knife, this would be a last resort of I could not get the dog off me or my dog and could not get to my pistol, say of I was pinned on the ground.
4. A glock 9mm. My dad had to shoot a great dane a year or so ago, it had latched onto his hand and was dragging him to the back of a house where there were two more waiting. Tricky sob's.


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## redleg06 (Jan 28, 2008)

atkins72 said:


> The dogs are not the problem. The owners are. My cousin has two pits. They are the sweetest most loyal and well trained dogs I have been around. They will be defensive, but would never attack un-provoked.


We'll have to agree to disagree here. My guess is that until the dog attacks for the first time, most owners would agree that their dogs have never been previously aggressive but it only takes one time. Most attacks are on children and I have to assume in most cases the children didnt attack the pitt bull and put it in "defensive" mode.

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I walk the neighbors cat on 4lb test line....keeps the dogs from getting to me...the cats gettin fast..


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## TestDawg (Nov 27, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I walk the neighbors cat on 4lb test line....keeps the dogs from getting to me...the cats gettin fast..



The neighbors cat
View attachment 2942


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## atkins72 (Jun 17, 2009)

redleg06 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree here. My guess is that until the dog attacks for the first time, most owners would agree that their dogs have never been previously aggressive but it only takes one time. Most attacks are on children and I have to assume in most cases the children didnt attack the pitt bull and put it in "defensive" mode.
> 
> http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm


I guess so. I have seen pits that came from dog fighting outfits, a year prior they were mean and would not let a person get near them. Now they are sweet well mannered dogs that would not bite unless provoked. No doubt some breeds are more prone to bite than others, but at some point it becomes the responsibility of the owner to know there dog. My guess would be that most of the pits that bit or attacked were not properly socialized around children as puppies. My nephew was bitten by their Australian Sheepdog mix. The dog was kept outside all the time in a pen and never given much attention, therefore it was not used to the tugging and poking children do to dogs. It was completely my brother in laws fault for not socializing that dog or giving it enough attention. 

Long story short. I can't blame the dog for the owners putting it in situations it was not conditioned for. My understanding of pits is that they are not naturally aggressive towards people but rather have a natural aggressiveness towards other dogs since they have been bread as fighters for so long. I feel with 99% or dogs this can be overcome through proper socialization as a puppy and interaction with other dogs as an adult.


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## mohaled (Oct 7, 2007)

I think most pit bull owners are uneducated dog people who thinks its cool to have mean dog, ofcourse there's responsibile ones who try to do the right things.


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## redleg06 (Jan 28, 2008)

atkins72 said:


> I guess so. I have seen pits that came from dog fighting outfits, a year prior they were mean and would not let a person get near them. Now they are sweet well mannered dogs that would not bite unless provoked.
> 
> Long story short. I can't blame the dog for the owners putting it in situations it was not conditioned for. My understanding of pits is that they are not naturally aggressive towards people but rather have a natural aggressiveness towards other dogs since they have been bread as fighters for so long. I feel with 99% or dogs this can be overcome through proper socialization as a puppy and interaction with other dogs as an adult.


Go take a look at the link in my previous post. They describe the attacks and how they happened. These particularly stand out to me because they are unprovoked attacks by the family pet pitt. 

"Kelli Chapman, 24-years old, was killed by two pit bulls *while sleeping in her home*. She and her husband *had raised the dogs since they were pups" *

"6-years old, was violently attacked by the *family pit bull* on August 12th. At the time of the incident, she had been playing with the dog named Dozer."

"Cenedi Kia Carey, 4-months old, was brutally attacked by the family's 2 pit bulls. Police Chief Joseph Forti said the dogs were in the backyard of the home prior to the attack. The dogs managed to enter the home, possibly by bursting through a screen door, and began attacking the baby as she lay in a stroller. "They just went right for the little girl," he said. The grandmother managed to grab the baby and escape into a different room. She tried to close the door behind her, but one of the dogs forced its way into the room followed by the other. The dogs began attacking the infant again and killed the child. The grandmother was also injured in the attack. "

As i said, we will probably have to agree to disagree here but these dogs were/are selectively bred for their aggressive behavior and ability to act violently and it's in their nature to act this way. Considering the audience here, i imagine most would agree that selectively breeding for desired traits increases the likelihood of certain behaviors. Training & socializing are very important pieces to the puzzle but retrievers that are selectively bred for retrieving ability will usually excel in retrieving over those that are not selectively bred for it, all other things being equal. My point is, YES socialization would be a very good start to decreasing the pitbull attacks but the nature of this breed lends itself toward violent behavior more so than most other dogs IMO.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I grew up in L.A. (lower Alabama) where catching wild hogs with dogs was a popular sport. The catch dog was almost always a pit bull. They have a single minded purpose when they attack. The pit bull will hold the hog by the ear or whatever part is in its mouth while the dogs owner ties the hogs legs. These pigs can be very big. Nothing short of death or the dogs owner will get a catch dog off the hog. I will never own one as a pet.
My opinion
Mark L.


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## Cody Covey (Jan 29, 2008)

my dog has been charged by multiple labs while on walks...never a pit. Do you think that Show folks shouldn't be allowed to own am staffs or other variants?


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

I don't ever blame the dogs either, but I won't ever trust dogs that have had aggressiveness bred into them. Unprovoked? What provokes a dog to attack, that's been bred to do so? A running screaming child playing "tag"? No thanks, no pit bulls around my kids. Or any other dog that's proven itself aggressive. Pit bulls aren't the only one. During my ER days, brown chows were by far the most popular offender of biting children. Go figure.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

TestDawg said:


> The neighbors cat
> View attachment 2942


Don't laugh I look across the field from the house and see a couple in the neighbors yard.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Anytime you own a dominant type breed that thrives on chaos you should do some homework and see why these dogs react and behave the way they do.
I like pitt bulls and have trained a ton actually over 2 tons of them.

a pitbull mix is not a pit bull anymore than a lab poodle mix is a lab.
The reason for purebred dogs is predictability. Most people own mixes.

Pitts are considered people friendly but dog aggressive. There are other breeds icluding a retriever breed that is also considered a dog aggressive breed. And a people aggressive breed. Yet we are charmed by their ruggedness and loyaly because they provide the owner the services sought after.

The only reason pitts have a bad name is because they are used for fighting and rightly so they are good at it. when they bite people they can do some damage,,,,, there are certain things that affect bully behavior negatively as far as people are concerned. Its peoples job to know about their breed and learn to understand and control it. 
All breeds have bad biters.
I can think of other breeds that have killed people,,the pitt doesnt come to mind.
I can say one thing for sure about pitts ,,they offer great insight on how dogs think and respond to stimulous.,,, and the understanding of the bully breeds and how they respond to stimuli can help people become better dog handlers no matter what dog games they play.

A pitt mix is not a pitt and the breed should not be crossed with kerrs.

People fear what they dont understand.

Pete


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0058403.shtml

For the times when the SP-10 is a little TOO conspicuous.

Have a plan to kill everyone you meet regards

Bubba


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I've been around pit bulls owned by good dog people that were fine, howeer if I ran across one loose while out with one or more of my dogs I would give it a wide berth. You can't know by looking at it if it's pure or a mix or the spawn of two powder kegs waiting to explode.

One thing rarely touched on is the scum that breed them with no regard to the temperament or stabilty of the parents. Many even actively seek dog and/or human aggressive specimans to breed. The care most of us use and due diligence on researching a new puppy or a planned breeding is almost unheard of amongst the general public and especially the pit bull owning public. 

The only loose one I've run across in my rural area showed up one day when I had two females in season. Unlike the few other occasional lotharios who've shown up, he was not scared off by shotgun noise. In fact he skulked between my two vehicles in a spot where I couldn't even shoot him without damaging one or both vehicles and I had nothing here but shotguns and bird shot. I'd called animal control but this is a big rural county and they can take hours to get here. After an hour or so I needed something from my truck and he went into defensive mode, head lowered, hackling up so I got mad and called the po po non emergency number and said if AC didn't get here within the hour I was going to shoot it. When the cop and animal warden got here the cop even said I was allowed to shoot it on my farm if it was bothering my livestock, wink wink nudge nudge.


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

Bubba said:


> http://www.cabelas.com/p-0058403.shtml
> 
> For the times when the SP-10 is a little TOO conspicuous.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Bubba! If mace/pepper spray works, this is exactly what I was looking for. Something I could carry in a holster and whip out very quickly without fumbling in a pocket for it. Or, like some I've seen that hang around your neck. I want to be able to extend my arm and get it far away from me and my dog. Plus, it comes in pink!


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## Jennifer Teed (Jan 28, 2009)

"2-months old, was killed by the family's Laborador puppy. At the time of the attack, the baby's mother, 17, and grandmother were sleeping in their bedrooms on one side of the house and the baby was in a baby swing in the livingroom. The father, 18, and grandfather had left the baby swinging prior to their departure that morning. The infant was declared dead upon arrival of the police. Details were not released due to an ongoing investigation. The Lab puppy was euthanized at the request of Tulsa police"

Anyone who leaves their two month old unattended in a swing with a loose pup is asking for trouble. Euthanizing a 6 week old pup was not necessary! The only thing I can see a 6 week old lab pup of being guilty of is trying to play with the swinging baby and possibly smothering it. There was no way there was any attack or aggression in this story....

Someone back me up.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I would think twice about carrying a loaded firearm in a residential area, even if you have a permit. Better be darn sure of your shot, as the outcome might be worse.

I would vote for a 3-4 ft cattle prod.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Carry a Heeling stick or riding crop. Personally, I wouldn't be afraid to beat the crap out of someone else's dog that came after me and my dog. I have a neighbor who built a house behind me, piece of crap land and house, about a year ago. They are on their 4th set of dogs for the kids. They have NO CLUE about how to take care of dogs. The most recent set are a chihuahua / dachshund mix. They can squeeze through the fence and EVERY time I go out to the kennels to get out dogs or work dogs they come running over barking away. Last night the Lab I was working just put a foot on one and pinned him to the ground. I have to admit that I was proud of him and let a "Good Dog" slip out. I wish people would learn to train and control their dogs!!! And some people (my neighbors especially) just should NOT have dogs.


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## pmaro (Aug 26, 2009)

Once had problem with owner at roadside rest area. He thought it was a good time to socialize his beagle. I had to remind him this was not the place, it was too small and dangerous because of people and cars in parking area. "Later, Bud."


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## atkins72 (Jun 17, 2009)

redleg06 said:


> Go take a look at the link in my previous post. They describe the attacks and how they happened. These particularly stand out to me because they are unprovoked attacks by the family pet pitt.
> 
> "Kelli Chapman, 24-years old, was killed by two pit bulls *while sleeping in her home*. She and her husband *had raised the dogs since they were pups" *
> 
> ...


My point is that the owners should have:
1. Been aware of the aggressive nature of the breed they owned, and taken according action. 
2. Children should not be left alone with any dog, until the child is old enough to handle the dog properly, or the owners are 100% sure about the dogs temperament and interaction with children. 

Now sometimes a dog that has never shown aggression will attack, but I would be willing to bet that in these cases, in which the owners knew the dog through and through and never had a problem, that the number of incidents in pits would be on par to other breeds. 

It is the owners responsibility to know what their dog is capable of and not put the dog in situation where problems may arise. It is the owners responsibility to research the breed and pedigree of their dog to understand it's behavior.

I do not support the banning of any breed, but rather the education of owners and regulations for breeders. These bad traits can be bread out of pits just like they were bread into them.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I do not support the banning of any breed, but rather the education of owners and regulations for breeders. These bad traits can be bread out of pits just like they were bread into them


At one point in time when fighting dogs were alittle more accepable to communities,especially south of the border and in japan,,,,breeders would quickly put down a dog that growled at humans,,let alone bite. 

The aggression toward people was never tolerated,, so it was not part of their breeding program.

It was also the very wealthy at one time who participated in the developement of the breed.

Now its just an inner city fad propagated by idiots.
Humans are good at taking something good and turning it into something bad.

No I have never fought dogs,,and have no desire to. I had someone ask me that not to long ago because I play with aggressive dogs,,, so just to dispell a potential rumor.. because,,,, well,,,,,, I do enjoy working with them.

Pete


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

Jennifer Teed said:


> "2-months old, was killed by the family's Laborador puppy. At the time of the attack, the baby's mother, 17, and grandmother were sleeping in their bedrooms on one side of the house and the baby was in a baby swing in the livingroom. The father, 18, and grandfather had left the baby swinging prior to their departure that morning. The infant was declared dead upon arrival of the police. Details were not released due to an ongoing investigation. The Lab puppy was euthanized at the request of Tulsa police"
> 
> Anyone who leaves their two month old unattended in a swing with a loose pup is asking for trouble. Euthanizing a 6 week old pup was not necessary! The only thing I can see a 6 week old lab pup of being guilty of is trying to play with the swinging baby and possibly smothering it. There was no way there was any attack or aggression in this story....
> 
> Someone back me up.


Sorry, but cnnot back you up.

Who knows what happened ... no details.

But a 2 month old is very small and a pup very young. It is possible that the pup was play biting and things got out of control. Perhaps the pup smothered the child. Perhaps the pup was aggressive and did attack. Details not available.

But if we breed dogs for one thing -- performance in the field -- with no regard to temperament .... we get what we sow.

Just Say'in


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

Bubba said:


> http://www.cabelas.com/p-0058403.shtml
> 
> For the times when the SP-10 is a little TOO conspicuous.
> 
> ...


Assuming pepper spray works, this is a great idea. One problem with spray, is that many attackees, in a state of stress, do not aim it at the attacker.

This is a great way to make sure that your dogs and you are not sprayed.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

kjrice said:


> Don't laugh I look across the field from the house and see a couple in the neighbors yard.



well, when Sigfried and Roy are your neighbors......


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

atkins72 said:


> ... would be willing to bet that in these cases, in which the owners knew the dog through and through and never had a problem, that the number of incidents in pits would be on par to other breeds.


Pits are different from other breeds. They have incredibly strong jaws. Once they bit down on something it is practically impossible to pry their jaws loose.

Someone mentioned Chows in a previous post. They and Akita's are very dog aggressive. These dogs were originally bred in the far east as guard dogs for royalty. They are unpredictable off lease around other dogs and children. Because they were bred as guard dogs they can be man aggressive as well. I wouldn't loose sleep if they were banned, but they are still different from Pit bulls. 



atkins72 said:


> It is the owners responsibility to know what their dog is capable of and not put the dog in situation where problems may arise. It is the owners responsibility to research the breed and pedigree of their dog to understand it's behavior.
> 
> I do not support the banning of any breed, but rather the education of owners and regulations for breeders. These bad traits can be bread out of pits just like they were bread into them.


Hello? Many of these owners don't care to be educated. They want aggressive dogs to look more macho and/or protect their families. Drive through some of these neighborhoods and you'll see dogs chained up on trees. If they are not born to be aggressive, regular abuse will make them so. 

When these people discover that the dog is too much for them, they drop the dog off in another neighborhood or in some rural area. These dogs from packs. Many times well meaning neighbors leave bowls of food outside.


Jo Anne doesn't seem to live in these neighborhoods. But, non the less, she is experiencing problems. Jo Anne, and everyone else, should have no hesitation to contact animal control and report anyone who cannot keep their animals contained. Truly irresponsible owners deserve to have their dogs taken away. 

I continue to like Bubba's spray suggestion. Better than shooting up the neighborhood with live ammo. 

Hopefully, the local police will not mistake it for a real pistol. (There are also newspaper stories of kids being shot in the park with toy water pistols.) Isn't modern living fun?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

and nobody mentioned being chased by a Goat sucker? come on Texan's....


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> They are unpredictable off lease around other dogs and children. Because they were bred as guard dogs they can be man aggressive as well. I wouldn't loose sleep if they were banned, but they are still different from Pit bull


many breeds were bred for guarding,,,, including the chessie ,thats what Ive been told anyway. Gaurding is an import trait and cherished by many including soldiers and police officers. If a dog has those traits,,,then people need to know how to control them.

I would hope that breeds bred to schred intruders are owned by responsable owners,,,after all if someone broke into your house at night and was turned into a siv,, very few would protest.
We are the keepers of our animals and we are responsible for their actions.

In biblical times if a man new his animal was aggressive and that animal killed someone then he was stoned.

Unfortunately we live in a society in which many dont know their animals are aggressive untill its to late. They are blinded by their affection for that animal. And they are way to far removed from a natural life style to really understand animals or even do anything about it. The smartwer we get the stupider we become.


Pete


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## atkins72 (Jun 17, 2009)

Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> Hello? Many of these owners don't care to be educated. They want aggressive dogs to look more macho and/or protect their families. Drive through some of these neighborhoods and you'll see dogs chained up on trees. If they are not born to be aggressive, regular abuse will make them so.


The owners who are not responsible enough should have their dogs taken away. But there is a difference between that and banning a breed all together. There are many happy pit owners with non aggressive dogs, why punish them because of someone else being an idiot?



Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> When these people discover that the dog is too much for them, they drop the dog off in another neighborhood or in some rural area. These dogs from packs. Many times well meaning neighbors leave bowls of food outside.


I have experienced this on my hunting lease, not with pits but with Wolfhounds. They were coyote dogs that became to aggressive to run with the other dogs and the owner set them free. Two years ago pheasant hunting I gave both of them a dose of double 00 buck while they were circling me at my truck, I always carry buck shot in my vest for yotes, skunks, bobcats, and such animals. 




Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> Jo Anne doesn't seem to live in these neighborhoods. But, non the less, she is experiencing problems. Jo Anne, and everyone else, should have no hesitation to contact animal control and report anyone who cannot keep their animals contained. Truly irresponsible owners deserve to have their dogs taken away.


I agree. 



Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> I continue to like Bubba's spray suggestion. Better than shooting up the neighborhood with live ammo.
> Hopefully, the local police will not mistake it for a real pistol. (There are also newspaper stories of kids being shot in the park with toy water pistols.) Isn't modern living fun?


Get the right ammo and it will not be a problem. A good hollow point for home defense will not travel far after going through a dog, if it makes it through them at all. You can take your chances with pepper spray but if it comes down to me, my dog or the stray the stray is getting some lead no questions asked.


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## North Mountain (Oct 20, 2003)

atkins72 said:


> That being said if it is legal to carry a gun I would but only use it as a last resort. I carry several things with me while walking my dog.
> 
> 1. A very bright sure fire flashlight: in the dark this has stopped several charging dogs dead in their tracks. It stopped a guy who was going to rob me one night as well.
> 
> 4. A glock 9mm. My dad had to shoot a great dane a year or so ago, it had latched onto his hand and was dragging him to the back of a house where there were two more waiting. Tricky sob's.


Have I got the flashlight for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99NHb6B03s


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

North Mountain said:


> Have I got the flashlight for you!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99NHb6B03s


That's what I'm talking about! 

My wife's gonna wonder why I've got a "flashlight" on my Christmas list.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Not sure how this thread turned into a pitbull thread,b ut just so many are aware, in several states, the LABRADOR RETRIEVER tops the list for dog bites.

I get into a tizzy because people have this sweet impression of labs so there are statistically thousands more labs than any other breed because of that "impression", therefore, more ignorant owners failing their dogs training.

You are statistically more likely to get bitten by a lab. Many "pit" owners understand the bad rap that pits have and are trying to do something about it by training their dogs.

I have to agree with some that blame lies on the owner, not the breed.

I don't trust people with their dogs and why I am very anal about who my dogs get to play with and visit. ONLY dogs that I know.

I have a HUUUUGE peeve about people letting their dogs come up to mine to "play". Their response is generally "my dog is friendly" To which I reply "well you don't know if mine are" and walk away. That generally keeps a person at bay.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

And generally the dogs used for boar hunting are Dogo Argentinos.

There are many bully breeds out there and the pitbull seems to take the fall for all of them.
In fact here is a find the pitbull quiz. Can you pass it your first guess

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Jake Lunsford said:


> retractable ASP


This is certainly a viable solution. However, here in Georgia that is considered carrying a concealed weapon, no different than carrying a concealed firearm. Since I am licensed to carry concealed, that would be no problem for me, but I thought it should be mentioned. If someone wants to go this route they definitely need to check their local laws. I guess you could carry it fully extended in which case it wouldn't be concealed.

I certainly think I could come through a confrontation with a large, powerful, aggressive dog with one of those.



dnf777 said:


> During my ER days, brown chows were by far the most popular offender of biting children. Go figure.


I was talking with my old vet one time (personal friend) and I asked his opinion about "bad" dog breeds. FWIW I have always been of the opinion that it was more about the owners than the breed. Anyway, he said that excluding the little yap yap dogs, ask any vet and they will tell you the dog most likely to bite (the vet or vet tech) is the chow chow. I was surprised to hear that.



Bubba said:


> http://www.cabelas.com/p-0058403.shtml
> 
> For the times when the SP-10 is a little TOO conspicuous.


That looks like it could be a good solution. Assuming I was satisfied with the performance using the practice rounds, I would view that as a viable alternative.

One concern that comes to mind with that thing is that if you are carrying it visible people may think it is a real firearm and it may cause some alarm. Also, I wouldn't want someone to think I was threatening their dog with a real firearm (like if you pulled it and then didn't have to use it) if I wasn't.



Thomas D said:


> I would think twice about carrying a loaded firearm in a residential area, even if you have a permit. Better be darn sure of your shot, as the outcome might be worse.
> 
> I would vote for a 3-4 ft cattle prod.


Personally, I don't see that as a concern. If I was to shoot a dog attacking me or my dog, I would be pointing the gun at such a downward angle that I wouldn't be concerned about hitting an innocent bystander because I would be basically shooting at the ground. If the dog is across the street or some distance away I'm not going to shoot. Sorta like shooting deer at fairly close range from an elevated deer stand. Generally speaking if you miss the shot is going into the ground vs. hunting on the ground where you really, really need to be sure of what is beyond your target.

Something the original poster might consider is walking their dog on a chain. When I was a kid my mom had me walk our mutt on a long chain because she didn't know any better. It wasn't a real heavy chain, something like one might use for a stakeout chain for our labs after training or at an event. Anyway, there was a chow in the neighborhood that attacked my dog a couple of times on our walks. I discovered that 3-4 feet of that chain makes a serious weapon. After I used that chain a couple of times all I had to do was start swinging it and that chow would go hide. This isn't a bad option because it doesn't look to anyone like you are out to hurt their dog (like carrying a big stick looks), but it will always be in your hand, can be quickly deployed and you can flat bust something/someone's butt with a chain like that.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

In defense of the chows..... Ralph and I had one that was friendly, loyal and great with all kids and other dogs. He was once attacked by a "pet" lab that was allowed to run loose. Titan, our chow, managed to roll that dog over on his back and sat on him until he saw the error in his ways. At any time he could have gone for the throat or otherwise escalated the battle. He never did, the lab left with his tail between his legs but not a mark or scratch on him. Certainly you can have a breed of dog with aggressive tendencies, and we learned that the minute you listed a Chow as your dog, homeowners policies went up. But, raised right and with careful attention, I believe most dogs can be good dogs.

I also agree totally with agilelabs. I do not allow neighbors or others that want to "just let them play" approach either of my dogs, a chessie and a lab. I have a bad rep as being an old meanie, but it is my dogs' well being I am concerned with. I never want them put into a situation where they feel they must defend themselves. When I was walking with Indy the other day, one of my neighbors with a Golden Doodle was literally dragged by her dog into Indy's face. He sat like a soldier and was pleasant. She said wow, thats a good dog, I said yes, he was raised that way. The dog continued to drag her all the way home, all I could do was shake my head.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

When we were kids we used to light bottle rockets while holding them with our fingers. Then we'd watch the fuse and throw them to get extra distance just before the rocket was ignited.

It's all fun and games until one goes off in your hand.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

agile.labs said:


> Not sure how this thread turned into a pitbull thread,b ut just so many are aware, in several states, the LABRADOR RETRIEVER tops the list for dog bites.


That is simply a function of the sheer numbers of labs out there. The Labrador Retriever has been the #1 registered dog every year (new registrations) for something like 15-20 years....and it isn't even close. Generally there are more Labs registered every year than the #2 and #3 breeds combined. Therefore if you are goofing around with a dog and get nipped there is a greater percentage chance that it is a lab than anything else. A lot of things classify as dog bites and many of them are far less than vicious. Conversely you don't hear about many being mauled by labs.

I'm not one of those on a crusade against pit bulls. I think the problem is largely human (breeding and treatment/training), however I would not trust one with my kids. I do think that if we somehow got rid of pit bulls then the punk thugs out there would simply pick another breed as the breed of choice for dogfighting, status symbols in the 'hood, etc. and then we would be talking about getting rid of THAT breed and so on and so on.

Back to the misleading/irrelevant statistics about labs, you could also find that most crimes, violent crimes or whatever are committed by right handed people. Does that mean that a right handed person is more likely to commit a crime? Of course not, there are just a whole heck of a lot more of us in the population.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

HuntinDawg said:


> That is simply a function of the sheer numbers of labs out there. The Labrador Retriever has been the #1 registered dog every year (new registrations) for something like 15-20 years....and it isn't even close. Generally there are more Labs registered every year than the #2 and #3 breeds combined. Therefore if you are goofing around with a dog and get nipped there is a greater percentage chance that it is a lab than anything else. A lot of things classify as dog bites and many of them are far less than vicious. Conversely you don't hear about many being mauled by labs.
> 
> I'm not one of those on a crusade against pit bulls. I think the problem is largely human (breeding and treatment/training), however I would not trust one with my kids. I do think that if we somehow got rid of pit bulls then the punk thugs out there would simply pick another breed as the breed of choice for dogfighting, status symbols in the 'hood, etc. and then we would be talking about getting rid of THAT breed and so on and so on.
> 
> Back to the misleading/irrelevant statistics about labs, you could also find that most crimes, violent crimes or whatever are committed by right handed people. Does that mean that a right handed person is more likely to commit a crime? Of course not, there are just a whole heck of a lot more of us in the population.


I agree with you 100% that it is about statistics but in the end statistics is what will prevail.

Paying extra ofr labs on homeowners insurance is also the norm around here.

We have to face the fact, like it or not, Labs are potentially hitting that BSL list is for no other reason than statistics.

Which is why I HATE BSL. The ideal would be to educate everyone on ALL breeds so NO breeds need to be on BSL


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

I've seen pits that were confiscated from a fighting ring. One brood bitch was sweet as she could be to people, but very dog agressive. She was not used for fighting...she had no scars. A friend of mine has a 7 year old pit that is an absolute doll..good with the kids and other dogs. The people that have propigated the human aggressive lines are what have destroyed the breed's reputation (along with several others such as rotties and dobes).

As far as # of lab bites, again the sheer numbers. Also, I'd be willing to bet MOST of the labs reported are mixes and those that are full blooded are those that were bred with no regard for temperment (ie byb, puppy mill). How many of the deaths due to dog bites were due to labs as opposed to pit/pit mixes. 

Personally, I won't tolerate any people aggression--wouldn't bred to one that was known for it even if he was a 4xNAFC (seriously doubt that one with that type of aggrssion would ever do that but you get the drift with the exaggeration)


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

HuntinDawg said:


> A lot of things classify as dog bites and many of them are far less than vicious. Conversely you don't hear about many being mauled by labs.
> 
> .


At the kennel I work at, and I am not kidding, I will walk in with most of the pits over a majority of the labs.

We actually have a few labs that we have to double secure(a clip on the lock) because they will lunge(and eat if they could) at anyone walking by they can hit it hard enough to open it. Lickily we are equipped to deal with aggressive dogs.

Our biggest issue with the pits is the ability to scale the 6 foot wall so they have to be covered.

We are also the stray dropoff for our area. We can place a pit before the time is up(we have to hang onto for 14 days) and labs we will sit on for upto 6 months.

And this is really sad for me being into the Lab breed. I just feel so sad that their owners failed them and their training. These are the ones that because "labs are great family pets" assumed no training was needed and the same ones that will end up in the pound, euthanised right alongside all the "aggressive" pits. The end result is still the same.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Cedarswamp said:


> I've seen pits that were confiscated from a fighting ring. One brood bitch was sweet as she could be to people, but very dog agressive. She was not used for fighting...she had no scars. A friend of mine has a 7 year old pit that is an absolute doll..good with the kids and other dogs. The people that have propigated the human aggressive lines are what have destroyed the breed's reputation (along with several others such as rotties and dobes).


And this is true of pits. In fact, even pits bred to fight a euthanised if they sow any sign of hman aggression. That was not tolerable.

I think "pit" is actually the label that get tacked to any kind of dog attack, just because that is the current "norm"

Heck, there was a lab that ate a babies toes and a dachsund that killed a baby. 
Most of the time when I read these articles, I fault the parents for actually leaving a baby and a dog alone.


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

Labs were bred to retrieve. Pit Bulls were bred to kill prey.

You can train both to restrain themselves.

Anyone ever have a lab creep or break?  

I don't blame the dogs, but who's fault it is won't be any consolation when a child is maimed or worse. I won't have those types of dogs around my children.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

dnf777 said:


> I won't have those types of dogs around my children.


If it's any consolation, I don't trust ANY dogs around my kid I don't care what breed unless I personally know the dogs and that is simply because I generally don't trust the owners.


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

Okay, let's see if we can get back on track here. I am interested in the pit/aggressive breed issue but that's for another post. I don't care if the dog charging me comes from a stupid or a smart owner or a well or poorly bred dog. I need to know what the best way to protect me and my dog is without causing undue alarm in the neighborhood.

Original question, does mace/pepper spray work to repel a charging dog?

Talked to my community police officer today. He wasn't groovin' on the mace or pepper spray UNLESS it was made for dogs. I've got to check the CT statutes but mace might be one of those things (like radar detectors were) that's legal to buy but not to actually use. 

Why are products made for dogs differetn? From the http://www.safetygearhq.com/canine-mace.htm website they say,

"Why use Mace Canine Repllent against dogs instead of regular pepper spray? Because dogs, unlike people, do not have tear ducts. Therefore they cannot flush the spray out of their eyes as easily as humans. Mace Dog repellent is formulated with less than 1% oleoresin capsicum. It is specifically designed to be safely used against canines."​Saw my letter carrier on the way to work today. Asked him what he uses to protect himself. He showed me a can of Back Off Dog Repellent. Said it works, even on pits. Figure that's before they latch on, though. Active ingrredients listed as Capsacin and related Capsacicoids.

Websites for dog repellents:
http://www.postalproducts.com/product/S1001152.htm
http://www.tbotech.com/dogrepellent.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Halt-Dog-Repellent-1-5-oz/dp/B000E4Q7BS

Sorry, Bubba, can't go with the pink mace gun with laser sight, much as I would have liked to.


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## Normal (Aug 4, 2003)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> Sorry, Bubba, can't go with the pink mace gun with laser sight, much as I would have liked to.



JAR, just curious - are you meaning based on your preferences/opinions you can't go with this or is there a legality or effectiveness issues that you know of? Not knocking your decision - just curious (hadn't even heard of the pink mace gun before this thread).


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Jo Ann, you want something simple and pretty much fool proof to use at a distance, not when the dog is close enough for contact. Also if multiple dogs charge, nice to have something that can function in that capacity. When we lived urban and rode bikes or walked, simple squirtgun with ammonia/water mixture was all it took to make them turn tail, including the one that previously had grabbed my ankle. Even if you don't hit the eyes, just the face/muzzle is enough, they do not like the smell let alone the burning eyes. Firearms are not appropriate in urban settings even if legal. Mace can be messy to the user and not failproof, likewise tasers. The new squirt guns are pretty cool as far as distance and don't look like real guns. One in the pocket or slung on the handlebars of a bike pretty much took care of any dogs I ever encountered, no batteries, no knobs, buttons or anything else to fail or mess with. Carry a walking stick for backup if that much of a problem. I doubt there are any laws that would forbid a squirt gun or a walking stick either.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

agile.labs said:


> I agree with you 100% that it is about statistics but in the end statistics is what will prevail.
> 
> Paying extra ofr labs on homeowners insurance is also the norm around here.
> 
> ...


Don't know who you are with, but the major companies don't unless they have prior bites. Then, you would probably be cancelled, not pay more. 

Send me a PM and let me know what company it is.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Labs may top the bite list because of the sheer numbers of them and the fact that any generic black dog is called a Lab. But, I'd bet if you took the bite statistics and broke them down into serious bites that resulted in major damage/surgery/maiming/death you'd find a majority come from pits and pit crosses. The pit bull jaw is designed to crush and do damage. The lab was bred (originally) to fetch game.


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

Just 3 things:
1. My dog's and my safety comes first when the two of us are training, hiking, exercising, hunting or whatever...I'm not one to take chances with that.
2. Pepper spray, also known as OC spray (from "Oleoresin Capsicum") works...I carry it every time we go out, I've used it once on a pit that was charging us and I wouldn't hesitate to use it again under the same circumstances. But,
3. Buy the one that emits a stream rather than a spray pattern...if it shoots in a stream it's a lot less likely to get back on you or your dog. The cost for a small pocket-size one with a pocket clip is only about $10, and it has a thumb lever as a safety mechanism.


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## Normal (Aug 4, 2003)

Devlin said:


> I've used it once on a pit that was charging us and I wouldn't hesitate to use it again under the same circumstances. But,
> 3. Buy the one that emits a stream rather than a spray pattern....


OK! been waiting to hear from someone who has actually had to use it on a charging PBT (hope you were OK). Would you mind elaborating on your experience and the timing of actual use, delay (if any) in charging dogs reaction to the spray, etc. I've always kind of wondered (catch 22) wouldn't want to let it go too early (have it be ineffective / run out, etc), but if you wait too long and they are able to get in close and get ahold (me or my dog) that even if i spray (at close range) they may just hang on/shake and it'd be too late. 

Perhaps i'm over thinking it and just inexperienced, but interested in your opinion/experience regards.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I have only been worried by one dog while training a great pyrenees that lived with the sheep at Kelly Farms. More worrisome was the llama that also lived with the sheep, more than once a coyote or stray dog was stomped to death.


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## marcj33 (Nov 14, 2008)

I dislike even thinking about my daughter or my dog getting attacked, but its necessary to be prepared if the threat is real and I believe it is for me.

I live in a down town areas as well. I had one stand off with an unknown dog at about 20 yards early morning before first light, I saw him and said "no" and kept walking with my lab--scary for sure. The other dog stopped and I think we got lucky. That was the only real issue in a almost a year of walking him.

That said last sunday at the dock after a session of boat based retrieves my dog was bitten on his head by another lab. My dog was on a leash, the lab and his buddy boxer free to roam while their hiking owners admired the scenery. No provocation from my pup and no warning from the other lab. My dog walked over to say hello and never got there. It was a lightening fast bite and cut him to the bone between his eyes; it took 4 staples to close it up. The attacking dog was 6YO and had never bitten anyone or any dog before...go figure.

I'm committed to protecting those dependant on me for saftey so whether its my hands or feet or some tool I won't hesitate. My concern is the speed in which this can happen. Of the two dogs last sunday I was prepared for the boxer to do something and positioned my self in a good spot to deal with it if it had but I never suspected the lab and it was over before I could move in.

I like the idea of mace or pepper spray or the like but I would gravitate toward a solid stick of some sort. Like any projectile, practice is needed for accuracy under controlled conditions let alone in chaos. And i like the specific control of a stick and repeat strike that you have with it if necessary. 

Good luck to all and safe passage where ever you walk with your buddies.

Marc


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## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

jimboburnsy said:


> A woman in my neighborhood walks her dog with a 30" fish-billy (looks like a fish-billy anyway) dangling from her wrist on a lanyard. Probably smart. Stiff enough to poke, long enough to keep an advancing dog at a distance and heavy enough to leave a memorable impression.


I tried that when I lived in Fort Lauderdale but was afraid to use it when the pit tor up a cat in my side yard. I think now I would go with some sort of cattle prod.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Labs may top the bite list because of the sheer numbers of them and the fact that any generic black dog is called a Lab. But, I'd bet if you took the bite statistics and broke them down into serious bites that resulted in major damage/surgery/maiming/death you'd find a majority come from pits and pit crosses. The pit bull jaw is designed to crush and do damage. The lab was bred (originally) to fetch game


 
Well said JUlie


Or you can get your own pit bull and be 1 bad dog walkin fool.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Julie R. said:


> The pit bull jaw is designed to crush and do damage. The lab was bred (originally) to fetch game.


I thought one was a cow dog and the other was a fish dog
if you go way back


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> Labs may top the bite list because of the sheer numbers of them and the fact that any generic black dog is called a Lab. But, I*'d bet if you took the bite statistics and broke them down into serious bites that resulted in major damage/surgery/maiming/death you'd find a majority come from pits and pit crosses*. The pit bull jaw is designed to crush and do damage. The lab was bred (originally) to fetch game.


this has been done and proven. just one click got this:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite

"In recent years, the dogs responsible for the bulk of the homicides are pit bulls and Rottweilers:

"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.)'


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

david gibson said:


> "In recent years, the dogs responsible for the bulk of the homicides are pit bulls and Rottweilers:


Rotties are wonderful, I know a guy, Dad of a friend of mine. Who duck hunts with one. I would love to see a study of the number of dogs that bite or attack that are owned by crack sniffing property stealing life long looser dregs of society types. Verses the dogs owned by you and me. It is simply because these dorkweeds chose that breed. Any dog they would happen to own would act the same. If some gangsta rapper suddenly had a fighting cocker spaniel guess what the “Hood” would be filled with by next year!


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Rotties are wonderful, I know a guy, Dad of a friend of mine. Who duck hunts with one. I would love to see a study of the number of dogs that bite or attack that are owned by crack sniffing property stealing life long looser dregs of society types. Verses the dogs owned by you and me. It is simply because these dorkweeds chose that breed. Any dog they would happen to own would act the same. If some gangsta rapper suddenly had a fighting cocker spaniel guess what the “Hood” would be filled with by next year!


Absolutely. Great post.

You know how many small dogs bite. The number is unbelievable. I know of people that have had stitches in their faces from small dogs.

As far as an approaching dogs, sad as I may be, I try to avoid strange dogs at all costs. I do not do dog parks nor do I walk where there are a lot of dogs. I live on a country road luckily and walk early where activity is limited.

We did get charged by a minpin the other day. My dogs were on leash in the street, I put them on a heel and continued walking away from it. Bless the owners heart out in her bathrobe and all she started hollering at the dog. Luckily it did retract back to its yard.

I will not think for one second about the other dog if it did come for an attack. I will take what means necessary to protect my dogs, kids, myself.


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

Normal said:


> JAR, just curious - are you meaning based on your preferences/opinions you can't go with this or is there a legality or effectiveness issues that you know of? Not knocking your decision - just curious (hadn't even heard of the pink mace gun before this thread).


The mace may be a legality issue in my state, haven't got the definitive answer to that, yet. Also, in talking with others using anything that looks like a gun may get you into a situation that you'd prefer not to be in with someone who has a real one.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *Ken Bora*
> _Rotties are wonderful, I know a guy, Dad of a friend of mine. Who duck hunts with one. I would love to see a study of the number of dogs that bite or attack that are owned by crack sniffing property stealing life long looser dregs of society types. Verses the dogs owned by you and me. It is simply because these dorkweeds chose that breed. Any dog they would happen to own would act the same. If some gangsta rapper suddenly had a fighting cocker spaniel guess what the “Hood” would be filled with by next year!_


A very appropriate statement. But...one cannot discount the natural tendancies of the breed(s). Pit bulls naturally hold on when they bite--it's instinctive and bred into them for generations. It's also what accounts for the severity of their "engagements".



> You know how many small dogs bite. The number is unbelievable. I know of people that have had stitches in their faces from small dogs.


IMO that's why they call them ankle-biters! Letting one get in your face may be cause for serious introspection!


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Vicki Worthington said:


> Letting one get in your face may be cause for serious introspection!


Not when you are the groomer or the OWNER!!!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> Also, in talking with others using anything that looks like a gun may get you into a situation that you'd prefer not to be in with someone who has a real one.


I'm about as pro-gun as a guy can be (Life Member NRA), but this is a valid concern. If I'm carrying a gun (licensed to carry concealed) I don't want it to be seen because it may appear as a threat. I definitely don't want to be seen carrying something that looks like a gun, but isn't. If I carried one of those mace pistols (pretty cool idea IMO), I wouldn't carry it openly.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

> Not when you are the groomer or the OWNER!!!


If I were the owner & the damn thing bit me, I can assure you that it would never bite anyone again! Knocking its teeth out, regards!

As a groomer, I guess your recourse would be to refuse the appointment in the future.


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## agile.labs (Aug 24, 2009)

Vicki Worthington said:


> If I were the owner & the damn thing bit me, I can assure you that it would never bite anyone again! Knocking its teeth out, regards!


LOL. If it were my dog, they would definitely have a come to Jesus meeting. At the same time, if it were my dog, that issue wouldn't hav happened in the first place.

But it is all these people sold on Purely Positive that don't believe in that that keeps us in business. I train agility at an obedience facility and it is unbelievable the amount of issues that can be fixed if people were simply willing to correct their dog.


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

HuntinDawg said:


> I'm about as pro-gun as a guy can be (Life Member NRA), but this is a valid concern. If I'm carrying a gun (licensed to carry concealed) I don't want it to be seen because it may appear as a threat. I definitely don't want to be seen carrying something that looks like a gun, but isn't. If I carried one of those mace pistols (pretty cool idea IMO), I wouldn't carry it openly.


And I want to carry my dog repellent clipped to my belt or somewhere else very easily accessible. That pit stalked up behind me in a nanosecond. My male wasn't going to take it lying down. I don't want to have to fumble for the repellent and try to keep him under control at the same time. The Back Off dog repellent has a clip and shoots a stream of the stuff. If the postal service is buying it on contract for their employees I figure it's got to be effective.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> I don't want to have to fumble for the repellent and try to keep him under control at the same time. The Back Off dog repellent has a clip and shoots a stream of the stuff. If the postal service is buying it on contract for their employees I figure it's got to be effective.


Sounds reasonable to me. I hope it works well for you.


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

Normal said:


> OK! been waiting to hear from someone who has actually had to use it on a charging PBT (hope you were OK). Would you mind elaborating on your experience and the timing of actual use, delay (if any) in charging dogs reaction to the spray, etc. I've always kind of wondered (catch 22) wouldn't want to let it go too early (have it be ineffective / run out, etc), but if you wait too long and they are able to get in close and get ahold (me or my dog) that even if i spray (at close range) they may just hang on/shake and it'd be too late.
> 
> Perhaps i'm over thinking it and just inexperienced, but interested in your opinion/experience regards.


My Sadie & I were training in our "every day" spot in a State Beach park...the pit came charging at us from a group of guys eating & drinking about 100 yards away, so I had adequate time to assess what was happening as it charged us. I put Sadie at heel, pulled the OC, kneeled down and grabbed her collar do she wouldn't engage the pit...I started yelling as loud as I could at the pit and when it was probably 10-20 yards away it slowed down a bit, but kept coming. I flipped the lever and put a stream directly into its face, mouth and eyes from about 5 yards. It started yelping, rolling, rubbing its face in the grass, and generally acted completely disoriented. Its owner came running over raising hell with me for hitting his dog with the OC, so I offered him a dose, too, if he didn't control his dog and get the hell away from us. It seemed a reasonable thing to offer him under the circumstances. He went back with the dog to his buddies, and I went to the park rangers' office and reported them...the rangers on duty kicked their asses out of the park.

Not fun. Not good. But necessary. And as said before, if the situation were the same I'd do it again without batting an eye. And I still carry OC whenever we go out.


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## Fowlfeller1100 (Mar 30, 2009)

If you use pepper spray make sure you use the good stuff like for bears, when I was a kid my mother hit a rottweiler at stand off distance in the butt with the cheap stuff on two occasions its like silly string sort off, and you would need a perfect facial hit to make a difference. I guess you might have better luck at a closer distance but why risk it...

Another time my Grandfather came that < > close to shooting a Rottweiler (German Shepherd mix?). We were coming up from duck hunting and it charged him, his 12 ga was still loaded, and pointed, the dog turned at the_ very_ last second like 15 feet away, like one more bound and then a open jawed leap distance... a very lucky dog that can still see and harrass people and pets today. (Got my beloved cat twice that Mother######, now he limps around and needs cosequin and cant even get on the couch or my bed plus hundreds in vet bills...) 

Be especially aware of groups of dogs even small dogs or worse numerous small dogs and one big dog, as warding off an attack in this situation is unlikely, as much as I like them I found out the hard way that terriers (Jack Rusell in this case) aren't very friendly at all...


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## Fowlfeller1100 (Mar 30, 2009)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> a highly aroused dog?


I would reccomend a bucket of ice water...


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

Devlin said:


> My Sadie & I were training in our "every day" spot in a State Beach park...the pit came charging at us from a group of guys eating & drinking about 100 yards away, so I had adequate time to assess what was happening as it charged us. I put Sadie at heel, pulled the OC, kneeled down and grabbed her collar do she wouldn't engage the pit....


What's OC?


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

atkins72 said:


> The dogs are not the problem. The owners are. My cousin has two pits. They are the sweetest most loyal and well trained dogs I have been around. They will be defensive, but would never attack un-provoked.
> 
> .


I disagree-the breed IS the problem.
They earn their reputation. Figure this - border collies /herding dogs, will herd, things even if theyre not in a 'herding' environment. 
Retrievers fetch things, even if theyre not in a hunting home, (ie- balls, etc.)
You cant take the herd out of the herding dog- you cant take the retrieve out of a retriever,and you cant take the 'attack' out of an attack breed.
Even the best treated, best socialized PBs have the potential to be nasty.
I dont trust ANY OF THEM- PERIOD.
In response to hte original topic, I put a small t-ball metal bat in my dog truck to ward off any loose dogs.
The whip stick doesnt do anything- know from experience....


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

Jo Ann Reynolds said:


> What's OC?


From my post #73 in this thread...



Devlin said:


> (snip)
> 2. Pepper spray, also known as OC spray (from "Oleoresin Capsicum") works...I carry it every time we go out, I've used it once on a pit that was charging us and I wouldn't hesitate to use it again under the same circumstances. But,
> 3. Buy the one that emits a stream rather than a spray pattern...if it shoots in a stream it's a lot less likely to get back on you or your dog. The cost for a small pocket-size one with a pocket clip is only about $10, and it has a thumb lever as a safety mechanism.
> (snip)


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## dosnewfs (Sep 7, 2009)

Cheap and easy to buy, shoots well, can't imagine there is a law against carrying (maybe using)--wasp spray
Not sure if it works, but I can't imagine it doesn't burn the eyes and nose.
A neighbors jack russel was backed off with the flashlight once also.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

dosnewfs said:


> Cheap and easy to buy, shoots well, can't imagine there is a law against carrying (maybe using)--wasp spray
> Not sure if it works, but I can't imagine it doesn't burn the eyes and nose.
> A neighbors jack russel was backed off with the flashlight once also.


This is a joke right? You'd carry wasp spray for protection and spray a dog with it not knowing if it would even stop the dog and not knowing if it might kill or permanently blind the dog? Freakin' amazing.


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## Hew (Jan 7, 2003)

Billie said:


> Figure this - border collies /herding dogs, will herd, things even if theyre not in a 'herding' environment.
> Retrievers fetch things, even if theyre not in a hunting home, (ie- balls, etc.)
> You cant take the herd out of the herding dog- you cant take the retrieve out of a retriever,and you cant take the 'attack' out of an attack breed.
> Even the best treated, best socialized PBs have the potential to be nasty.
> I dont trust ANY OF THEM- PERIOD.


Exactly. 

I find it amusing that there are some folks who can proudly name you every dog in their retriever's pedigree back four generations and then turn around and claim that with pitbulls, it's all about how they were raised.


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## dosnewfs (Sep 7, 2009)

HuntinDawg said:


> This is a joke right? You'd carry wasp spray for protection and spray a dog with it not knowing if it would even stop the dog and not knowing if it might kill or permanently blind the dog? Freakin' amazing.


Sorry I have not test this on any dogs. Judging by your reaction (disgust) you seem to think that it would be fairly effective means of stopping an attack. Let's reread your post with me changing just a few words

This is a joke right? You'd carry *A STICK *for protection and *HIT* a dog with it not knowing if it would even stop the dog and not knowing if it might kill or permanently *INJURE* the dog? Freakin' amazing.

A stick, gun, chain, knife or any other weapon mentioned so far can/will damage a dog as much or more than what I suggested. I believe that is what this entire post is about, defending myself and MY dog (not petting a roaming set of fangs and walking it home). It is not pretty, and no fight ever is.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Hew said:


> I find it amusing that there are some folks who can proudly name you every dog in their retriever's pedigree back four generations and then turn around and claim that with pitbulls, it's all about how they were raised.


This was my point earlier: that it's not just the thugs and ghetto trash that own them and "floss" them on the log chains with the spiked collars and brag about how vicious they are. It's the indiscriminate and worse, criminal intent of those that breed them, sell them and drop them off at animal shelters. With few exceptions, even the decent owners that get pit bulls know nothing about the parents' dispositions nor did they take any care to educate themselves on genetics when they shopped for their new dog. Remember even a good number of people posting on this site didn't know an FC from a CGC when they purchased their first retriever. It's entirely appropriate to generalize the breed as capable of causing maiming or death when you encounter one even if the owner claims otherwise.


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## Larry64 (Aug 19, 2009)

Perfect for curbing dogs up to ten feet away. Easily clips to your pocket or belt or use with Halt holder. USA. Note: Contents under pressure.

Found at most bike shops.


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## Fowlfeller1100 (Mar 30, 2009)

I would from personal experience not reccomend the halt stuff as it streams like silly string and you CAN miss, go for the spray stuff.. The Rotty didn't care that it was hit in the butt (broadside) ...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I prefer a Ben Hogan # 4 iron with an Apex 4 shaft and a cord grip, 37 3/4 inch standard loft


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

You can try saying
"psssst" or something like that

Pete


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