# poison bird blinds



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

let's have a discussion of poison bird blinds.

Here's some questions to consider, but the discussion doesn't need to be confined to them; (silly me- this IS RTF. LMAO!!!)

-How do you train for them?
-Why use them?
-How frequently? in training, in tests/trials
-What are the judges looking for? in tests/trials
-How important a skill for a hunting dog?
-What constitutes a failure? in tests/trials


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

started training for them using a 4 phase drill
cause they're important to me especially hunting
i generally run a poison bird blind once a week with my young dog whether mixed in singles or as part of a multiple mark set up.
i'd guess they're looking for control but i dont have enough experience from the test/trial game to say.
very important. group shoots 3 birds. 2 fall dead. 1 is swimming away at a good clip headed for cover. "no" the dog off the dead bird and handle to the cripple.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

This is how I initially teach poison birds with youngsters:



> I learned the 6 send drill from Woody Thurman when he came up here and did a retriever training seminar in 1992. I've done it with every retriever I've had that made it through the double T.
> 
> Basically, you set out 6 bumpers in a pile I do it anywhere between 100 and 150 yards. Get the dog and run a blind to the pile. Next run the pile again. The dog should line it or be better than the first time. Next put a gunner out there two thirds of the way to the blind. Just have the gunner sit there and run the blind again. Next, have the gunner stand up and fire a dry shot, run the blind. Next have the gunner fire a shot and throw a bumper/bird. Pick up the mark and run the blind. Last have the gunner throw a mark. Run the blind then pick up the mark.
> 
> The first few times you run it you're teaching it. After half a dozen times the dog usually has a good idea of this and I start doing only 2-3 a week for a couple/three weeks. At first run the mark 90 degrees off to the side but slowly work closer to the line to the blind. At the end your running mark very close to the line to the blind,don't forget to do some under the arc blinds. I do it maybe 12-15 times and then I don't come back to it. After a few of them you are only doing a 4 send drill and later on maybe only 3 sends.


Once a pup knows the 6 send drill I go to KRD's. I like to do ~60% of my KRD's as a mark then pick up the blinds and ~40% of them as poison bird blinds. I do 2 or 3 a week during the off season as I can do them without a big group. I throw in an interupted marking setup maybe once a week during the heavy training season.

The why's and how important it is I'll leave for someone else to say. It's a skill that is teachable.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

1) initial concept starts with back to pile where its main function is break down and is incorporated in many of the drills all the way from yard work through transition, all being a step by step trasition
2) for control due to retriever games
3) depends on the dog///// only ran a hand full of opens this year and about half of the land blinds were poisen or BB diversion,, so common enough to need to train on here and there as needed
4) control I suppose
5) I seldom if ever use this skill in hunting. I find in the different environments I hunt saving the cripple last is way more advantageous for recovery and saves time.
6) failure occurs when dog picks up poison, or handler avoids a liberal line , or dog handling is sub par ,,,just like any other blind I guess


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I do not train often on poison birds. I start poison birds using my pattern blinds. Think poison birds are unfair to dog but my opinion means nothing.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Paul, I was asking all the questions in the other thread because I want to know how to train my dog. Per TRT/Lardy I taught poison birds off of pattern blinds. But I did not find there much about how far off the line the poison birds get placed, and how far from the mat they get placed. I also found an article by Bill Totten that was helpful, much like what Howard described above. I've come across other how-to's here and there.

But my jaw dropped a few weeks ago at a setup I saw, far more difficult than anything I found on the web when I went looking. I would love it if people would provide some setup ideas. 

Newbie regards...


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Howard N said:


> This is how I initially teach poison birds with youngsters:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's an "interrupted marking setup"?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

we use diversion/poison birds a lot in training..it has many purposes IMO

1. it makes a blind more exciting because the possibility and combination of picking up the bird keep the dog guessing and on its toes

2. it tells the dog, you are on my agenda and I decide what you get to retrieve....unlike selection in a marking test

3. I am showing the dog two separate retrieves..a blind..and a mark

4. Every once in awhile I will not call the dog off the mark, but allow them to pick up the marks and then turn around and run the blind


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

If you get RFTN, look at the 8th series of the recent Canadian national. There is a diagrammed picture of a tough one. The write-up notes that most of the dogs had a number of whistles on both blinds. Sometimes the All-Age blinds at a weekend trial are even more severe.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Now I have to ask what is KRD Howard?

How does everyone run there dog for Poison Birds? I think I mentioned in the other thread, my dog watches the mark being thrown from one side. Then I say "no leave it" and heel to other side and cue "dead bird" which IMHO works well for us b/c we have always done that. He has no trouble coming in from the blind and focusing on the mark. Be interested in what others do?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Now I have to ask what is KRD Howard?
> 
> How does everyone run there dog for Poison Birds? I think I mentioned in the other thread, my dog watches the mark being thrown from one side. Then I say "no leave it" and heel to other side and cue "dead bird" which IMHO works well for us b/c we have always done that. He has no trouble coming in from the blind and focusing on the mark. Be interested in what others do?



KRD=Key Relationship Drill?

Mary Lynn, What do you do if there is a double blind, the poison bird between them?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

From the Canadian Nat'l sight:


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Thanks for the drawing, Howard.

Jay, I appreciate the picture but I cannot tell what is going on!


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I figured out the little pencil thingy showing line and dot for poison bird


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

paul young said:


> let's have a discussion of poison bird blinds.
> 
> Here's some questions to consider, but the discussion doesn't need to be confined to them; (silly me- this IS RTF. LMAO!!!)
> 
> -How do you train for them?


Four Phase Drill to start. Each phase is thoroughly schooled in standard order first; pick up the mark, and then line the blind. Once all four phases are well trained in that manner (mimimum of 3-5 days on each phase), phases A, B, and C are then taught as poison bird blinds. We then move to drills similar to TRT "Blind Drills", and then to cold set ups.


paul young said:


> -Why use them?


To keep from losing crippled game that is less visible than closer killed game.


paul young said:


> -How frequently? in training, in tests/trials


That is determined by my training journal. If I begin to see an erosion of skill in this area I increase exposure to it in training.


paul young said:


> -What are the judges looking for? in tests/trials


Control, and willingness to take direction from the handler.


paul young said:


> -How important a skill for a hunting dog?


I believe it is one of the most important of all skills for a working gundog. When several birds are downed by a group of hunters it is not unlikely that one or more may not be clean kills. You want to get on those cripples before they are lost, so this skill is what allows that to be done effectively.


paul young said:


> -What constitutes a failure? in tests/trials


The dog ends up getting the poison bird before the blind. The handler tries to cheat the test by not challenging it; false lining and/or handling wide of the line to avoid failure. A poison bird is a factor. Factors are placed en route to test the dog's control and willingness to take direction from the handler.

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> KRD=Key Relationship Drill?


That is correct.










Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> KRD=Key Relationship Drill?
> 
> Mary Lynn, What do you do if there is a double blind, the poison bird between them?



Probably run it the same way. Thanks for definition.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Evan said:


> That is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the diagram Evan.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Howard N said:


> From the Canadian Nat'l sight:


How would one run this blind? What are the pitfalls? If you pick up the right hand blind first, dog is fighting the wind and if you try to cast to keep it on line it might think you are telling it to get the poison bird? Also if it drifts too far left it runs into the bird on the left, and once it gets past the PB and the left blind you have all the scent behind the dog calling it. If you run the blind on the left first, you still have dog fighting wind, and still possibly having to cast toward the poison bird to keep dog on line.

Thoughts?


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

The shorter, left hand blind was picked up first. I was one of the gunners at the poison bird station for the first half of dogs that ran. The poison bird was not as much of a factor as it was in the 7th series poison bird water blind. Ask me how I know;-)


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

The judges will tell you which one you will pick up first. Train for both. 

I think a double blind this tight, go by the short one first, is still legal in AKC field trials. What do other trialers, especially judges think?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Still legal as far as I know.

I think the difficulty here is that after picking up the short blind, the dog is being "squeezed" by it's previous line to the short blind and the poison bird. Some dogs may push off the the short blind and and end up being hacked at at the beginning while others may push off the poison bird and need to be handled towards the poison bird which is not desirable. Once past the PB the longer blind is not too difficult but being precise with that kind of brushy terrain and a fast moving dog takes skill by the handler and focus by the dog.

Sorry the PB water blind got you Andy! From the picture, it looks like a dog could enter the water on line and still be on the bird before you saw it in time to do much about it.-Paul


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> How would one run this blind? What are the pitfalls? If you pick up the right hand blind first, dog is fighting the wind and if you try to cast to keep it on line it might think you are telling it to get the poison bird? Also if it drifts too far left it runs into the bird on the left, and once it gets past the PB and the left blind you have all the scent behind the dog calling it. If you run the blind on the left first, you still have dog fighting wind, and still possibly having to cast toward the poison bird to keep dog on line.
> 
> Thoughts?


Short blind first!IMO


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> How would one run this blind? What are the pitfalls? If you pick up the right hand blind first, dog is fighting the wind and if you try to cast to keep it on line it might think you are telling it to get the poison bird? Also if it drifts too far left it runs into the bird on the left, and once it gets past the PB and the left blind you have all the scent behind the dog calling it. If you run the blind on the left first, you still have dog fighting wind, and still possibly having to cast toward the poison bird to keep dog on line.
> 
> Thoughts?


This is a well designed PB blind. there's no way to avoid the hazards and still complete the blind in an acceptable manner. See my earlier post as to what i see as pitfalls on this setup. -Paul


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Howard N said:


> *The judges will tell you which one you will pick up first.* Train for both.
> 
> I think a double blind this tight, go by the short one first, is still legal in AKC field trials. What do other trialers, especially judges think?


That I did not know! Thanks.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> That I did not know! Thanks.


There are two situations in which judges can tell the handler what order they must pick up marks in. One is poison bird blinds, where they will often forgo picking up the mark in the interest of time. They would just have the poison bird thrown, you would run the blind, and then leave the line while the bird boy picks up the mark and prepares for the next dog. 

The other is in what are called "handling tests", which are multiple marks with a blind or two. There are many versions of them, but it involves the judges requiring a certain order of picking up both marks and blinds. It gets complicated describing all the variables. But here is an example.










This set up is a classic Indented Triple with a blind tight behind the short middle gun, and past the longer fall on the right. There are several ways of using this, but one would be to throw them right to left - the long left mark being the Go bird. A judge might require you to wait until all birds are down, then run the blind, and then retrieve the marks. Or, they may let you pick up the Go bird first, then the blind, and then the other two marks. You can see how many ways you could do this. And that's just one configuration!

Personally, I think they make better training than tests. But that's just me.

Evan


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

In other posts, I have mentioned that: If you want to make an educated guess about what the judges want in a blind (when they don't give instructions or draw a diagram), then you start by guessing as to what items they will have in their judging book. F = Features in judges' diagram

These are the features that I would expect a judge to have in his/her judging book:

*DIAGRAM 1*












This is how I would view the blind as a judge - and lacking any other information - as a competitor.
H = Hazards to be negotiated.

*DIAGRAM 2*










The Retriever Advisory Committee has taken the position - one with which I disagree, but will honor - that to run the long blind prior to the short blind is an attempt to circumvent the rule on diversionary birds and that to do so is therefore illegal. That rule reads as follows:




> Diversion Bird: A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot. *No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind.* Nothing in this provision precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or bird throwers as diversions from the blind.



The RAC interpretation is that the short blind is contrary to the provision which is highlighted above. So, in the US, at least, you would need to run the short blind before the long blind.

In my view, the short blind mostly serves to set up the long blind. I would probably stay left of the line to give myself more room to work on the long blind.

On the long blind, I believe you should keep your dog right of the short blind throughout your blind. I would score you down for being left of the short blind.

On the long blind, you are addressing the following factors:
- The tendency of the dogs to fade with wind (go left)
- The tendency of the dogs to push off short blind (go right)
- The tendency of the dogs to run to the poison bird (go right) 
- The tendency of the dogs to duck behind obstacles where visibility is poor (stand of trees towards end of blind)

To some extent the short blind helps a handler with an experienced war horse get the line to the long blind. An experienced dog will know:

1. Don't get the poison bird (even as you wind it on your way by)
2. Don't go left of the short blind

Follow 1 and 2, and voila, experienced dog has picture of appropriate corridor.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Howard N said:


> The judges will tell you which one you will pick up first. Train for both.
> 
> I think a double blind this tight, go by the short one first, is still legal in AKC field trials. What do other trialers, especially judges think?


No it is *NOT* legal!

Paragraph 20 of the FT standard states in part:
*No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind.

*Additionally, at the meeting of the 2009 National Am. The Chairman of the RAC specifically stated that running a double blind where you run the long blind 1st (with the short blind already planted) was prohibited by this provision in their view.


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## russhardy (Jan 8, 2012)

This tight double blind with poison bird got me thinking about marks and the use of primary or secondary selection. I'm very new at this sport and fell into it with my first dog. I have been reading on this forum for a while and particularly enjoy following these types of discussions. We are just to cold blinds so are not yet training for anything this sophisticated. We train with secondary selection on marks.

The interpretation of the rules in previous posts states that in a FT secondary blind selection is required when running the double blinds in that you have to pick up the short one first, at least if they are tight like the one that Howard provided a picture and diagram of. At the same time you are telling your dog to ignore a mark (the poison bird and the last and only bird down) and go where you tell him which is similar to primary selection (go where I tell/show you and not necessarily at the last bird that fell). I've got some questions for those of you with much more experience than I do.

A) Does anyone train on double blinds with poison bird like this with the idea that there is carryover and that it somehow supplements their practice of either primary or secondary selection?

B) If you consistently trained your dog for primary selection on marks would it make it easier/more successful to run blinds with a poison bird? 

C) To the secondary selectors: Do you feel that training for and running a blind with a poison bird undoes any of your mark training where you always pick up the last bird down first?

D) Or is there no real correlation from the dog's perspective between primary/secondary selection training and poison bird blind training?

Regards - Russ


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## hodgster11 (Dec 15, 2012)

I enjoy working on the blinds. The poison bird is something else.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

hodgster11 said:


> I enjoy working on the blinds. The poison bird is something else.


How did you go about working on them?

Evan


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Ted thanks for the explanation of those blinds with the factors and hazards.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Hey Russ, hope your winter is going well. Look at the bright side, in a week the days will be getting longer and in two weeks we'll have as much daylight as we have now. :???: 

I do not primary select so I can't offer any advice if that's what you are trying to do. But, I do train hard on secondary selection and I do lots of KRD's probably 40% of them poison bird. I'll also set up multiple blinds within a marking setup and interrupt the marks by picking up a blind or two (or three ) sometime in the sequence of the marks. Pick up a mark, do a blind, pick up a mark, do a blind, pick up a mark do another blind or any order I want to that day. I don't always pick it up in the same order with each dog but rather work on what that particular dog is weakest on.

I try real hard on the line to communicate to the dog whether we are going for a blind or a mark. Of my two dogs Bam gets it darn near 100% when we go from mark to blind. Her weakness is then picking up a long mark that is tight to a longer blind she has already picked up.  Missy is close to the opposite, she runs out to the long mark and I almost always have to handle her off the mark and onto the blind. Afterwards, when I send for the mark, she mostly just goes to the mark. All dogs will tend to be confused by it and as a handler you have to be ready for anything. :twisted:

I do the below drill with my transition dogs. I start it off fairly easy like depicted on the picture and work it out to longer and harder. I train them to mainly pick up the short blinds first and then the longer blinds, but I also train long first then the short. I'll have them eventually running right by an exposed bird to an unseen bird out there 150 yards longer. It's just more training on the way to having an all age dog.


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## Moosetogooseranch (Jan 19, 2008)

That blind in the Ca Nat that Howard posted was double tough. There was a change of cover - slot- just past where the PB landed. Then if the dog got loose on the end looking for the mark they were out of sight in a heart beat.
Very difficult blind!

Very difficult Natiional


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Moosetogooseranch said:


> That blind in the Ca Nat that Howard posted was double tough. There was a change of cover - slot- just past where the PB landed. Then if the dog got loose on the end looking for the mark they were out of sight in a heart beat.
> Very difficult blind!
> 
> Very difficult Natiional


..handle ok though in that event on retrieve of PB? Silly question, but not up on rules in Canada...

Thanks..

Judy


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## Moosetogooseranch (Jan 19, 2008)

Judy, the PB was not to be picked up. However, that did not prevent several dogs from looking for it.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Thank you, appreciate the feedback.


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