# Silver Lab at AKC Hunt Test?



## TWODOWN (Nov 23, 2003)

Ran a Junior Test this past weekend and saw a Silver Lab. I guess the dog is registered as a Chocolate and there was some controversy regarding this dog. Just wanted to know if anyone has seen one at a hunt test? 

I really didn't like the look of the silver lab but I didn't care which way or the other. I just thought it didn't look like the standard chocolate lab and if you registered a yellow lab as a black could you still run the test? 

I am new to running hunt test but have been using RTF for a while. Thanks for all the good advice over the past years. I did go 2 for 2 in the Junior Test this weekend and now have one more pass for a JH title. 

E. McManus


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Congrats on your pass!

If someone claims that their dog is registered, and produces valid registry numbers on the entry forms, that's their issue between themselves and the registry. If you don't have a dog in the fight, just focus on having fun with your own dog.

I'd not sweat it either way. You'll see other dogs that you like and would love to own. You'll see other dogs that you're glad somebody else owns!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

If it's the same test I was at, yes, there was a silver Lab and there was a bit of a commotion about it, the HT committee handled it pretty well, though what was done to the owner/handlers of the dog was uncalled for, regardless of anyone's opinion of silver Labs. Anyone who has a complaint about a specific dog needs to address it to the committee chair and/or secretary and the AKC, not ruin someone's weekend. AKC registers silver Labs as chocolate, for whatever reason, that's their decision and not much anyone can do about it at a HT, if there's an issue, and many of us know there is, then there needs to be some formalized action presented to the AKC to change their policy. Taking it out on a young couple at their first HT, not cool.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Kim,

1. was a formal complaint made to the HT Committee re-the silver lab? Or did people just wave their arms and sputter about it and treat the owners like crap?

2. if a formal complaint was made to the HT Committee, how did the HT Committee handle it?

While I have not seen a silver lab at a field trial, it could happen. As a F.T. Secretary and F.T. Committee Member, I know how I would handle it, but am curious as to what happened at this hunt test. 

Helen


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Taking it out on a young couple at their first HT, not cool.


Not cool at all.

I wasn't there, but that's just down right foolish to harass folks.


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## Zack (May 17, 2005)

I can only remember one that Angie B was running in junior a couple years back.


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## Zack (May 17, 2005)

TN_LAB said:


> Not cool at all.
> 
> I wasn't there, but that's just down right foolish to harass folks.


Completely agree.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

helencalif said:


> Kim,
> 
> 1. was a formal complaint made to the HT Committee re-the silver lab? Or did people just wave their arms and sputter about it and treat the owners like crap?
> 
> ...


Once the HT committee was made aware of the issue, they handled it very well, dog was given a rerun, they were given the option of running the Sunday test or be given back their entry fees if they didn't feel comfortable running again. No formal (written) complaint was made to my knowledge nor has one been filed with AKC as of yesterday. The AKC is issuing some sort of letter to the dog owners that they can produce if needed at future HT, so apparently, the AKC has no problem currently with silver Labs, if registered, running HT and that's what handlers and judges alike have to abide by, like it or not.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

The registration of dogs is between the breed club, the AKC and the breeder. If someone enters a dog in a hunt test, I would hope that they would be made to feel welcome. To do otherwise is simply rude. Personally, I believe it is good to see owners of a silver Lab trying to prove the capabilities of their dog in the field. The primary criticism of breeders of silver labs have always been the lack of health clearances and the lack of performance titles. If there are people trying to correct that, they win my respect.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

YardleyLabs said:


> The registration of dogs is between the breed club, the AKC and the breeder. If someone enters a dog in a hunt test, I would hope that they would be made to feel welcome. To do otherwise is simply rude. Personally, I believe it is good to see owners of a silver Lab trying to prove the capabilities of their dog in the field. The primary criticism of breeders of silver labs have always been the lack of health clearances and the lack of performance titles. If there are people trying to correct that, they win my respect.



Nicest post I think I have ever read on here about a silver.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

YardleyLabs said:


> The registration of dogs is between the breed club, the AKC and the breeder. If someone enters a dog in a hunt test, I would hope that they would be made to feel welcome. To do otherwise is simply rude. Personally, I believe it is good to see owners of a silver Lab trying to prove the capabilities of their dog in the field. The primary criticism of breeders of silver labs have always been the lack of health clearances and the lack of performance titles. If there are people trying to correct that, they win my respect.


The owners of this particular silver are in my training group. When they first showed up end of season last year with their little pup, being invited by the pro who runs the group, the first words out of my mouth were "oh, you have a new weimie", so much for first impressions. They had the dog pro trained through FF/CC, they hunt, they are learning, work and train hard and having now spent this season watching our dogs, they know what a really good dog can be. They love their dog, they had no idea there was so much controversy over its color, though I gave them a little heads up before this test, I didn't expect quite such a backlash. I felt bad for them, they were both in tears and I'm really glad the HT committee acted so quickly and well to put things right for them, as well as a few others giving them a pep talk.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> The owners of this particular silver are in my training group. When they first showed up end of season last year with their little pup, being invited by the pro who runs the group, the first words out of my mouth were "oh, you have a new weimie", so much for first impressions. They had the dog pro trained through FF/CC, they hunt, they are learning, work and train hard and having now spent this season watching our dogs, they know what a really good dog can be. They love their dog, they had no idea there was so much controversy over its color, though I gave them a little heads up before this test, I didn't expect quite such a backlash. I felt bad for them, they were both in tears and I'm really glad the HT committee acted so quickly and well to put things right for them, as well as a few others giving them a pep talk.


I bet they will somehow read this thread. Folks not on RTF have a way of getting to read stuff written about them from "word of mouth".

If they read this, I want them to express a hearty welcome to the retriever community. I want to apologize for any unsportsmanlike nonsense they had to deal with apparent over over-reactions by some to the physical appearance of their dog.

There's more good in our games than negative or bad. Sometimes the negative just gets magnified.

_*"Have fun...it's just dogs picking stuff up...or not."*_ (Joe Stambaugh 1998)

Chris


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

It sounds to me like the HT Comm and AKC did the right thing for those folks but perhaps some unsportsman like misconduct should have been brought against a few people that caused the problem to start with.

Amazing how people act in public.

I was at an AKC HT where a guy started bashing a certain sire calling all his offspring pigs. My dog and a fellow near me had dogs with that sire. I thought for sure someone was going to get punched. BTW both of our dogs are high rollers.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Well dern- if we are going to start being nice to the Silver dawgs whats next? Making nice to the fluffies and Poodles?

Slippery slope regards

Bubba


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## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

Did the silver pass the JH test. I hope so.

As for the nature of the problem, I'm not sure what the other people were upset about, can anyone shed any light on it.

The pups I've bought and sold in the past already have a color selected on their registration papers. You fill in the blanks and send them in, the AKC does the rest. 

I've seen one silver puppy about 5 years ago, the color made me think Weim, the shape was all lab puppy. I think anyone who gets a puppy and spends time with it, trains it, loves it and tried to make it into a well trained dog is a wonderful thing, color be damned.

Brad


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Well dern- if we are going to start being nice to the Silver dawgs whats next? Making nice to the fluffies and Poodles?
> 
> Slippery slope regards
> 
> Bubba


Being *nice* should be in order (not saying to be "happy" or "friendly", but being "nice" ought to be the way to act).

There are proper ways to deal with the issue at hand. Vigilantism and crude behavior ought not be tolerated. 

Regarding the poodle issue...All dogs six months of age or older from the following breeds are eligible to participate in Retriever Hunting Tests: 

AKC Recognized Breeds 
•Chesapeake Retrievers
•Curly-Coated Retrievers
•Flat-Coated Retrievers 
•Golden Retrievers
•Labrador Retrievers
•Irish Water Spaniels
•Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers
•Standard Poodles


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

TN_LAB-

Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain. Bubba is a' hidin in the closet. See he has been a fluff lover for years, he just ain't strong nuff to admit it and go over to the dark side. 

What he's not tellin is that if he was anything but kind to any dog person....well he would answer to the red head. 
Bubba on a stick regards,


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Hmmm....I wonder what those folks would do with a ILP number for a labradoodle that happens to be representive of either a lab or a poodle? That participation would be perfectly legal...


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## Poodlegirl (Dec 19, 2007)

Hey, Bubba knows about the Poodles - may not like 'em but knows about 'em ;-) I am a little confused about this silver Lab thing -- if it is a Lab, and it is registered, why was there so much mayhem? Am I missing something? Why can anyone even go to the HT Comm about it?

And, having been the "odd dog out" on a few HTs it is true that a few folks can be rude. However, I'd say that 95% of folks have been more than supportive and encouraging. It used to really bother me - when I would hear comments loud enough while at the line that were derogatory about my dog. Then a friend said, "focus on the 95% of us that cheer for you and forget about the idiots." That was the best advice I ever got. When we got our MH plenty of folks sent congrats and support for our efforts.

I hope this couple will keep trying ... and that others will encourage their participation.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Poodlegirl said:


> Hey, Bubba knows about the Poodles - may not like 'em but knows about 'em ;-) I am a little confused about this silver Lab thing -- if it is a Lab, and it is registered, why was there so much mayhem? Am I missing something? Why can anyone even go to the HT Comm about it?
> 
> And, having been the "odd dog out" on a few HTs it is true that a few folks can be rude. However, I'd say that 95% of folks have been more than supportive and encouraging. It used to really bother me - when I would hear comments loud enough while at the line that were derogatory about my dog. Then a friend said, "focus on the 95% of us that cheer for you and forget about the idiots." That was the best advice I ever got. When we got our MH plenty of folks sent congrats and support for our efforts.
> 
> I hope this couple will keep trying ... and that others will encourage their participation.


It's a Lab thing, like where did the silver color originate, since it appears to have shown up fairly recently, but that's a different story and more than a few heated threads about it. AKC registers it as a shade of chocolate, so people who don't know, see a dog that is the color of a weim going to the line, well, they kinda wonder what the heck. Some do know, don't approve, which is fine, but handled it inappropriately. Trial by fire, their dog failed water both days, so they got a double dose of the blues, but I think they plan on running some more later, they'll just be a bit more prepared next time around.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> It's a Lab thing, like where did the silver color originate, since it appears to have shown up fairly recently, but that's a different story and more than a few heated threads about it. AKC registers it as a shade of chocolate, so people who don't know, see a dog that is the color of a weim going to the line, well, they kinda wonder what the heck. Some do know, don't approve, which is fine, but handled it inappropriately. Trial by fire, their dog failed water both days, so they got a double dose of the blues, but I think they plan on running some more later, they'll just be a bit more prepared next time around.


Rainmaker,
Tell those people you know with the silver lab to give those pieces of crap the mental finger and rock on. Also, I do believe if I were in the same situation as them I would have gotten in someone's face. I almost always enjoy getting in someone's face when they're just coward blowhards. I'm sure they handled it like they should have, but some people need the stick in their behinds pulled out then beaten over the head with said stick. The silver lab owners are welcome to have a water or soda during a hunt test with me at anytime.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

If someone seriously denigrates someone else's dog couldn't that be construed as unsportsmanlike conduct? If in my opinion Joe Average and his family would be offended I'd be tempted to write it up to the committee saying what I heard, how many times I heard it and who else heard it. There's the normal kidding around that goes on about yellow and choco labs and goldens but serious bad mouthing is unsportsmanship.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Zack said:


> I can only remember one that Angie B was running in junior a couple years back.


I did and then Matt Larkin had her for a season and then I finished her up. Matt I and would tease one another and ofcourse my clients heckled me like no tomorrow. The owner was never there or involved so no one got their feelings hurt.

The way I look at it, I'm paid to do a job not tell someone how wrong the color of their dog is, not that I would care anyway.

She got her JH. Not the prettiest thing on the planet but from all reports the owner was pleased with her.

Angie


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

The owners were told by the committee and the AKC that if anyone else harassed them at a HT, they could file a complaint against them. I hope, that by making it a bit public, it doesn't go that far in the future. While I have doubts about the origin of silver and think AKC dropped the ball on it, they are legit Lab in AKC's eyes and thus allowed to run any AKC venue any other registered Lab is. For that matter, I think it's too late to prove they are anything other than Lab. I don't think trying to keep them from running a Junior test or telling them they might not get a ribbon even if they do pass is the way to go about protesting silvers being registered. This happened after the dog ran the land and did well then was getting ready to run water, so the owners went from very excited and happy to absolutely crushed. I also want to be clear, neither the club nor the HT committee were involved until after the incident and did clean up the mess. 

This young couple is being influenced for future events with ANY dog they may get in the future and if they want to continue with silvers, at least they are getting the knowledge of health clearances, which is sadly lacking in many silver pedigrees, as well as the real working characteristics of a Lab. I'm doing my darnedest to keep bringing up EIC, CNM, hips, elbows, eyes.

Unsportsmanlike conduct just doesn't belong in the field. Let the dogs take themselves out or prove their ability, doesn't have to be a nasty, personal vendetta because of a color.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> This young couple is being influenced for future events with ANY dog they may get in the future and if they want to continue with silvers, at least they are getting the knowledge of health clearances, which is sadly lacking in many silver pedigrees, as well as the real working characteristics of a Lab. I'm doing my darnedest to keep bringing up EIC, CNM, hips, elbows, eyes.
> 
> Unsportsmanlike conduct just doesn't belong in the field. Let the dogs take themselves out or prove their ability, doesn't have to be a nasty, personal vendetta because of a color.


Good deal on the health clearances and well said.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I think it's great someone is trying to prove the working ability. I've yet to see one entered in any AKC events. That and no health clearances have been among my major gripes about the silvers, charcoals, etc, and prices that seem to go along w/ them. 

There's an owner on another board that just found out her young Silver pup has severe dysplasia. I asked if she'd contacted her breeder or if there was any warranty there... no answer. Not surprised.  Anne


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I would hope that if anyone complained to the HT committee about the silver Lab (or a brindle, mosaic or tan point or ANY strange color...) that the HT committee would remind the complainer that such a complaint is unsportsmanlike! Geez what is wrong with people??? 

I admit, I have participated in the discussions over whether or not the silvers are really purebred on this forum, but that is in the abstract, I have never and would never attack anyone's dog (Heck, my sister has one!). Most people are clueless when they buy their first dog anyway and if they're told the parents/pups are healthy and well bred, they see no need to question further. The small minority that get involved in dog games may study pedigrees, join the breed club, learn and get a well bred puppy next time but for most people their retriever is also their beloved pet and finding out it's not well bred does not make them love the dog any less. Clearly, silvers are out there and registered as Labs and it's not mine or anyone's business to question an individual owner about the purity of his dog's parentage, especially an owner that has been training and testing the dog to make it a better dog! Such questions are rightfully directed at the dog's breeder and the AKC, the REGISTRY.

Even though the Labrador club has stated that any color other than black, yellow or choc is a disqualifying fault, such disqualification would ONLY come into play if the dog was being judged for its looks. Heck, I think it also says yellow or light eyes are also a disqualifying fault and no one seems to mind yellow eyed Labs running hunt tests? If you think about it, it's a good thing hunt tests and field trials are not judged on looks or the hunt test/field trial committees would never be able to keep up with all the complaints. And that goes for all breeds, not just Labs!

I wasn't there but, as the Sec. of my own retriever club if anyone tried to make such a complaint at one of our HTs I would be really tempted to write the person up for unsportsmanlike conduct or at the minimum, make them apologize for their churlish behavior and give them a stern warning.


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

the worst part about this situation is these individuals view of the ht or ft community from their treatment at this singular event they will tell folks their story an then it'll get passed on and it wont look good for those of you who are competitive and aren't [email protected]!ls. sad story.
jim


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm confused. They have an AKC registration number as a retriever. Why or how was it anyone's business to even ask once the Secretary had accepted the entry? They'd run land and done well. They were getting ready to run water and.....?

Candidly, we've got some real twits that run tests...just like in real life.

Eric


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## TWODOWN (Nov 23, 2003)

Along with the earlier controversy over the Silver Lab the water series was three single marks versus the traditional two. How many have seen more than two marks in a Junior Test? It made it very interesting. I didn't really think it was a big deal since it was only my third test (I didn't know any better) but the third bird thrown right at you with a big splash at 20yds made Smudge a little jumpy. She is a bit of a high roller and I didn't know if she was going to be able to settle down for it but I held her a little at the line and she settled in nicely before I sent her. 

The whole day was a little different. The land series had a dead duck at 50yds? with a gunner 5yds if front and to the right of the line. The second bird was a flyer 70-80yds thrown from a hidden gunner station with no duck call to Identify the area that the bird is coming from. I know I need to get a little more work on lining to get Smudge off the first bird and onto the second. I guess there is always a few wrinkles in these test that you might not train for but you probably pick up on them after you run a bunch of tests. 

The test were very fair even though the cover was really thick but all in all I had a great time.

Erin


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I'd heard that too, JH was 3 single water marks, can't say I've ever seen more than two each series. Bubba gunners are definitely something young dogs have a hard time with too, didn't run into any til the last couple years so we started doing it in group once in a while. Seems like something always popping up no matter how creative we try to get in setting up scenarios, congrats on your passes, btw.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> ...They have an AKC registration number as a retriever. Why or how was it anyone's business to even ask once the Secretary had accepted the entry?...


Good question. :shock:


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.

Thanks 
Robert Stoeberl


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## Georgia.Belle (Dec 5, 2006)

Good for you. Have fun!!


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Welcome to RTF. Hunt tests are a good game to play with your dog. I'm sorry your first experience got a little tarnished (Doesn't that always happen with silver?). Hopefully your future experiences will be less complicated and you can simply enjoy the sport.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Welcome to the RTF! I'm new to the dog stuff too. Hang on, it's a ride! Have fun with your dog and don't worry about some people. Some people just don't have any sense.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Give em hell!

Half of me says to ignore em. Half of me says bust up in their face if they say something (especially if the cowards say something behind your back). 

Get your ducks in a row next time and put the test secretary and judges on notice that you've been harassed in the past.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Gotta say that treating someone like crap over the color of their dog is pretty *&^&%. I kinda thought the whole idea with HT's was so that you could root for each other.

Hope the young couple didn't get completly turned off of HT's all together, their are a couple other venues out there, I know one of which would gladly let you run your dog in piece.

BTW, all of you that say "put up or shut up" about someone should actually show that a silver should prove that they can do the work, I sincerely hope you weren't among the people harassing the handler. Tell them to prove it, then harass them when they show up to do it. Watch out or you may have a "Jackie RObinson" of the dog world.

Not a fan of Silvers, not a fan of breeding JUST for color, but recent threads have opened the fact that there is a genetic basis for them to show up. Do you really want to take a YOUNG couple out of your sport just because you don't like their dog? I don't like Chessies and Goldens, but I am not going to harass someone that want to test one. Need all the help we can get......


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I bet they will somehow read this thread. Folks not on RTF have a way of getting to read stuff written about them from "word of mouth".
> 
> If they read this, *I want them to express a hearty welcome to the retriever community. * I want to apologize for any unsportsmanlike nonsense they had to deal with apparent over over-reactions by some to the physical appearance of their dog.
> Chris


As do I. The rudeness was totally uncalled for.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

robert stoeberl said:


> I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


Good for you, Bobby. Judging from Nelly's work last night, I think you guys made some real progress on the water entry. I'll be running a couple in JH at Northern Flight too, Nelly should be raring to go by then. Stick around on the forum, there is a terrific amount of training knowledge here.


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## goosebruce (Jan 10, 2003)

A couple years ago a young fellow joined our club (southern flight hrc in north mississippi)through one of our long time members. This young man had bought himself a lab, a silver lab. He was as proud as can be of that dog. He didn't know labs weren't supposed to be silver. He didn't know his beloved Buck wasn't going to have it on the big end, cause he didn't even know there was a big end. This young man worked hard with Buck, and got a midlevel title on him (an HR). Buck is a good hunting dog, but most of all, this fellow loves him. Hes since got a well bred dog, and is starting over. He is also an officer of our club now, was our last hunt chair (which had the highest profit we had ever had), and was a big part of being able to secure the Grand for spring 2011 by his work with the coe. Not to mention hes a helluva nice guy and got a smoking hot wife who adds a lot to our socials. I guess my point is, that guy who walks up new, might end up being a huge assest to you one day, and more importanlty might end up being a good good friend. Sure glad I didn't, or let someone else, run him off just because his dog is a different color. 

My first dog should have never been bred. She was yellow, not silver. It wasnt apprent until she had a lifetime of ear problems, finally going deaf for the last several years of her life. Most everyone first dog, isn't ideal. Just because someone ended up with an 'off' dog, doesn't mean they are just like you or me at that point in their expereince. 

Aint met anyone yet, who didn't love their first dog. travis


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Excellent post


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## Take'em (Nov 29, 2006)

robert stoeberl said:


> I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


That's the attitude, and good luck. Plus, you'll probably find the WI folks to be a more tolerable crowd now that their annointed one has decided not to QB the Vikes...for now, anyway.


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## MSchack (Jun 22, 2009)

Take'em said:


> That's the attitude, and good luck. Plus, you'll probably find the WI folks to be a more tolerable crowd now that their annointed one has decided not to QB the Vikes...for now, anyway.


That's actually pretty funny. Unfortunately it's also true.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

robert stoeberl said:


> I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


Robert, I'm sorry that people were rude to you and your wife at the hunt test. There is absolutely no call for that.

Please understand that there are many of us who have a real grudge against breeders of silver labs. Many of us suspect that they intentionally mix (or have mixed) Wiemeraners (sp?) in with their Labrador bloodlines in order to achieve a fashionable "rare" color. The thinking goes that this then enables them to market the resulting puppies for an inflated price due to the rarity of the color, resulting in people getting duped into buying something that isn't exaclty what the breeder claims it to be. We also have a problem with the fact that virtually none (I won't say none because there COULD be one who does) of the breeders of silver labs get the minimum health clearances on their breeding stock that most of us here would agree are necessary. We are concerned about the safekeeping of our breed. We understand that other types of dogs were mixed in order to produce the labrador retriever breed, but it is a closed registry now and other breeds are not supposed to be added.

The problem comes when someone who may share these beliefs about the silver lab breeders and their practices doesn't have the sense to separate those feelings from the individual dog and dog owner such as yourself - neither of whom have done anything wrong. There is no reason that someone shouldn't love their dog even if the breeding may not have been a good idea (there are any number of reasons why a dog shouldn't be bred including parentage, heritable health issues with eyes, elbows, hips, EIC, CNM, temperament issues, performance issues, the list goes on and on). There is no reason the owner should not train such a dog (except where harmful due to health issues), hunt with such a dog or compete with such a dog to the full extent allowable under the rules of the specific competition.

I wish I could tell you that you will never be asked questions about your dog that you don't want to be asked (or that you may tire of being asked), but that probably isn't the case, especially if you spend enough time around dog people. Hopefully they can refrain from being rude and unsportsmanlike though.

Good luck to you and your dog.


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## gman0046 (May 7, 2009)

Robert, sorry for the dumbness of a few that reflect negatively on the rest of us. Good luck with your pup in the future.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2009)

Thank you thank you thank you all for your new look at silvers. We love our dog just as much as you love yours, although our boy will never be an award winner or chasing a title. He's just a goofy, lovable slobbery hunting machine that we love alot. I think that's all that matters to us.


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

Does this mean that my chocolate lab and I can stop sitting in the back of the bus ? 

Robert, good luck to you and your pup. You'll get them next time.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

caglatz said:


> Does this mean that my chocolate lab and I can stop sitting in the back of the bus ?
> 
> Robert, good luck to you and your pup. You'll get them next time.


 LOL


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## hamie7 (Jul 31, 2009)

Robert I'm glad some clowns didn't ruin your fun in the dog test world.
From what I have read on silvers, is that they are a degenerative gene of the color choc. Which choc. is a degenerative gene of the color black. So where did yellow come from. Way back in the day yellow labs had the same problem as silvers, nobody believed in them. So these clowns must have owned all black labs. HAHA I dought it. 

Robert good luck! and let us know when you get your title.

Pat.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Maybe the silver lab and the black lab could have a beer with Osama.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Steve Hester said:


> Maybe the silver lab and the black lab could have a beer with Osama.


Or maybe someone with a Silver bitch could breed it to a Black FC AFC stud dog ????????


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## J Reitz (Sep 18, 2008)

hamie7 said:


> From what I have read on silvers, is that they are a degenerative gene of the color choc.
> Pat.


That is exactly right. We have mini dachshunds and there is a color called Isabella(which is silver) and it is actually a diluted chocolate.


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## JS McKinney (May 3, 2008)

J Reitz said:


> That is exactly right. We have mini dachshunds and there is a color called Isabella(which is silver) and it is actually a diluted chocolate.



Diluted, that is exactly right


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

hamie7 said:


> From what I have read on silvers, is that they are a degenerative gene of the color choc. Which choc. is a degenerative gene of the color black. So where did yellow come from. Way back in the day yellow labs had the same problem as silvers, nobody believed in them. So these clowns must have owned all black labs.





J Reitz said:


> That is exactly right. We have mini dachshunds and there is a color called Isabella(which is silver) and it is actually a diluted chocolate.


How is something that is so incredibly rare in labs (not so rare in other breeds) showing up in such large quantities now (at a really high price, with no pedigree to speak of an no health clearances) and why do they resemble Weimeraners which just happen to have a similar color????? WOW, what a coincidence! Either many/most/all of these silver breeders are scamming people with mixed breed dogs (lab/weim) or some of them who (theoretically) really did get their hands on the real thing, a true purebred male and female silver lab (what are the chances?) and are breeding purebred labs are doing an incredible and inadvisable amount of inbreeding in order to produce this rare trait, and if that isn't enough they must literally be breeding for that trait alone and nothing else, which cannot be a good idea. Again, lets not forget that nobody seems to have ever seen any health clearances on the parents of these breedings.

If somebody owns a silver lab they should love it and train, hunt, test, trial the dog to their hearts desire and nobody should be rude to them or treat the dog any differently because even if every bad thing that has ever been said about silvers is 100% true it still isn't the dog or dog owner's fault (assuming the owner is not the breeder, in which case it IS the owner's fault). But don't try to tell us that the breeders are on the up and up and are concerned about producing healthy purebred labrador retrievers. Save that for the newspaper ads where people will believe it.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

JS McKinney said:


> Diluted, that is exactly right


LOL:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

J Reitz said:


> That is exactly right. We have mini dachshunds and there is a color called Isabella(which is silver) and it is actually a diluted chocolate.


Nope. Simple color genetics here folks.
Dogs have a base color of black or RED (fawn) as controlled by the A locus. Obviously with labs that base color is solid black.
The B locus gene turns BLACK pigment to BROWN when recessive. This is true in ALL breeds with recessive B alleles. Chocolate labs, liver flat-coats, brown Chesapeakes, liver pointers, red dobermans, red Aussies, etc, etc, etc.
The D locus gene turns BLACK pigment to GREY or "BLUE" when recessive. This is true in ALL breeds with recessive D alleles. Weimaraners, blue dobermans, silver Newfoundlands, blue Great Danes, blue greyhounds, etc, etc, etc.
If a dog is recessive at both the B AND D locus they are called "blue fawn" (sighthounds), Isabella (dobermans & dachshunds), silver (labs, weimaraners) or ash (Chesapeakes). It is not an additional dilution of chocolate on the B locus.
There is no great mystery here. 
The great mystery in the silver lab phenomenon is, how did the recessive D alleles get in the breed? Were they there all along, and kismet brought them together? Or did someone simply breed a lab to a weimaraner? Which is more likely?


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## John Goode (Mar 6, 2008)

I have NOT read all the post-so perhaps this has been brought up-why not do a DNA test on the "Silvers"? If I where a breeder I'd have the DNA stuff up front so there would NEVER be a question.
Black dogs rule-well most of the time.
John


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I wondered how long all the niceness would last.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

...because I considered it improper to post a picture of someone beating a dead horse.

Next.



.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

whitefishjohn said:


> I have NOT read all the post-so perhaps this has been brought up-why not do a DNA test on the "Silvers"? If I where a breeder I'd have the DNA stuff up front so there would NEVER be a question.
> Black dogs rule-well most of the time.
> John


Here is a great discussion on the subject, be sure you have a couple hours free time to read it all though.http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39324



DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Or maybe someone with a Silver bitch could breed it to a Black FC AFC stud dog ????????


No doubt there would be long lines for the services of that FC AFC. Anyone willing to step up and volunteer their Black FC or AFC?


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

robert stoeberl said:


> I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


Robert,
Welcome to the Hunt Test game and to the RTF! Running hunt tests can be a roller coaster ride, but there is nothing like the high of standing at the line watching your dog step on her marks. Please don't let some poor sports ruin the opportunity for you. Regardless of what some people may say or think, the AKC makes the rules and it says your team is as eligible to run as anyone else in the the stake. The best way to silence the nay sayers is to run your dog with pride and collect those ribbons. 

I hope to have the chance to meet you at Northern Flight.


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## bwright27 (Jul 30, 2009)

robert stoeberl said:


> I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


Robert,

So sorry about the fuss. I cannot believe that people could be so petty. Hunt tests were created so people could test their dog's talents outside a competition between dogs. Why would anybody care enough to gripe about you wanting to test your legally registered lab? Where exactly were they losing skin? If they are truly that ultra-competitive, I would suggest that they get away from hunt tests. They are tests, not contests.


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

Thanks too you all! and YES I will be at northern flight in Aug. you all have been so inspiring and gracious in your thoughts. all i want is to run and pass that's all i want to do is PASS!!! and show off a little that Nelly and i can do the job and get it done and done Right!

Thanks 
Robert Stoeberl


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

Robert,
It's good to hear that you weren't ran off. I got into all of this 2 years ago with a choc. Everyone in my club gave me a hard time but was really supportive. I know have a yellow and a black. Funny thing. They give me a harder time about my black lab I got then my choc. I've only ran into a couple of sour apples in the retriever community. Just keep on running. If I remember right yellow and choc. labs were once considered what a silver is now. I may be a bit off. Anyone know this for sure?

Bryan Brumwell


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

robert stoeberl said:


> all i want is to run and pass that's all i want to do is PASS!!! and show off a little that Nelly and i can do the job and get it done and done Right!
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


Robert: GOOD for you and best wishes to you and Nelly at your next test. For some reason silver (or ash) seems to bring out the beast in people. So I thought you'd get a kick out of the story of one of my "silverfreaks" as we call them. This is a photo of her from earlier this summer:










She was the little puppy no one wanted, from an accidental (inbred) litter born in 2008. I priced the pups cheaply but, several sales fell through on her before a duck hunter agreed to buy her. Two days before he was to drive down and pick her up, he opted out because she got stepped on by a horse and nearly severed a toe. So I refunded his deposit, too. The toe did heal, but she was one of those pathetic dogs that just could not learn to swim. Lots of splashing, but no forward progress. Resigned, we kept her. By the end of last summer, she did finally learn to swim, and we just started a little obedience when our house was struck by lightning and burned down last Sept. when she was 8 mos. So she really fell through the cracks. This spring, I finally had a friend force fetch her as she loved to retrieve but didn't like to bring it back if it had real feathers. Halfway through the friend got a lucrative out of town job. Even still, having never done a water mark since gettiing off the table she passed a JH test in April. She might even run a derby this fall she's doing so well! 

Just thought that story of my little Pander aka "Der" might encourage you. She's not a Lab she's a Chesapeake but I can assure you they get their share of vilification at hunt tests and many Chesapeake Bay Show Dog breeders love to hate on the color publicly although it's always been acceptable for the breed.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

No doubt there would be long lines for the services of that FC AFC. Anyone willing to step up and volunteer their Black FC or AFC?[/QUOTE]

SERIOUSLY ? Money talks. 
Proper health clearances and the stud fee. Would there even be a problem ?


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## dbulle6 (Jun 4, 2009)

I have ran my dogs in a few hunt tests, I really enjoy mingling with hunt test personnel they are great folks. No matter what everyone thinks of the silvers, AKC obviously has no problem with them they certainly have done nothing about it. So it is very unfair to give someone a hard time with the Silver Lab they have put in just as much time with the Silver that anyone has with the Chocolate, Black, or Yellow so they deserve to be treated as fairly as others, let hem enjoy their hardwork and earn the same pride everyone else when they pass their test.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> SERIOUSLY ? Money talks.
> Proper health clearances and the stud fee. Would there even be a problem ?


 
besides, if the pups were a 'flop' you know everyone would blame the bitch lines... LOL

Juli


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> SERIOUSLY ? Money talks.
> Proper health clearances and the stud fee. Would there even be a problem ?





Juli H said:


> besides, if the pups were a 'flop' you know everyone would blame the bitch lines... LOL
> Juli


Well, it looks like there should be no problems then. 
Just waiting now for that first person to volunteer and publicly advertise their FC AFC stud as open for servicing Silver Labs.....


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

dbulle6 said:


> I have ran my dogs in a few hunt tests, I really enjoy mingling with hunt test personnel they are great folks. No matter what everyone thinks of the silvers, AKC obviously has no problem with them they certainly have done nothing about it. So it is very unfair to give someone a hard time with the Silver Lab they have put in just as much time with the Silver that anyone has with the Chocolate, Black, or Yellow so they deserve to be treated as fairly as others, let hem enjoy their hardwork and earn the same pride everyone else when they pass their test.


All the AKC cares about is the $$$$$.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

robert stoeberl said:


> Thanks too you all! and YES I will be at northern flight in Aug. you all have been so inspiring and gracious in your thoughts. all i want is to run and pass that's all i want to do is PASS!!! and show off a little that Nelly and i can do the job and get it done and done Right!
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


 
Robert we are looking forward to you and your dog and hope you come away with a better experience. Any misconduct or unsportsmanlike conduct by anyone will be addressed and dealt with. This is a hobby and we all need to make it fun for everybody who love there dogs and wants to work them. 

Looking forward to a great weekend regards


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Golddogs said:


> Robert we are looking forward to you and your dog and hope you come away with a better experience. Any misconduct or unsportsmanlike conduct by anyone will be addressed and dealt with. This is a hobby and we all need to make it fun for everybody who love there dogs and wants to work them.
> 
> Looking forward to a great weekend regards


I think everyone is our group is running, see you there.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Go get 'em Robert and Nelly!


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## First Sergeant (Mar 21, 2009)

Keep going and doing what you do, find the enjoyment in it for you, your dog and the sport.

It is like over agressive parents at junior sporting events. Some folks take themselves way too serious. Someone always has to rain on others parades.

It sucks, but it sounds like the committee did handled it as fair as they could other than maybe tell the whiners to go home 

What glorious victory it will be if when you pass and the naysayer have to eat a bit of crow.

I will be interested in reading the results of the next run you take.

If you can post some pictures of Nelly I would love to get a good look at them. 

I am colorblind when it comes to a working lab.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Man I can't believe what is being posted about this dog. I'm a pretty nice guy but I think if I was the hunt Chair those complaining would have been ask to leave. I don't care if you have a billy goat and it's registered with AKC you shouldn't have to put up with these insults. It's a HT and people are there to have fun with their dogs.

Robert Stoeberl they were just jealous you got a better looking dog. Just have thick skin and prove them wrong. Train hard and things will come together for you..... Be thankful you have people to train with and support you in this game.


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## TestDawg (Nov 27, 2007)

robert stoeberl said:


> I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl



It seems like you have a good group around you that stepped up when the dimwits began criticizing you and your dog.

Use this incident as a motivator.... become a student of the game... train smart and when you hear dog to the line....smash the test - pick up your ribbon - and say good day to the a$$3$ that caused the BS. 

Good luck


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

And some folks say that field trialers are snooty.....hmm.....


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I think it's more in the JH world because they are just starting and think they know something. I ran a light yellow dog at a JH test one day that come out of my dog box Blue. It's ears were blue, it's back was blue and just about every yellow hair had a blue tint. I ran the test and the dog seemed like it was running on air. A JH Handler come to me to find out what kind of retriever I was running. I told him that it was a rare African Blue Retriever and they are hard to find. After telling him, I noticed he went up to about 20 people in the gallery to tell them what kind of dog this was. I thought for a minute then went back to tell the gallery that I was lying about the dog and told them the blue tint on the dog came from the blue dog box on my trailer. 

Robert just tell the people it's stain from your dox box just for fun.....


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## greyghost (Jun 11, 2004)

My name is Peter Linn and I am the Hunt Test Chair for Chippewa Valley Retriever Club and was hoping to let this issue resolve itself and not be intrepreted as anything other than what it was. So, here is what happened. In my opinion it was handled professionally and exactly the way it should have been under the circumstances with a potential complaint that may be filed with the AKC. 

1. A partcipant informed the Stake Chair and said that they thought a dog other than what is allowed to run at an AKC Retriever Hunting Test was entered (the silver lab) and a complaint would be filed with the AKC.

2. The Stake Chair at that time was obligated to relay this information to the Judges who along with the Stake Chair conversed with the owners of the silver lab and explained the rules for what dogs are allowed to run at an AKC Retriever Hunting Test. To ensure the owners understood the AKC rules. 

3. The owners were given the opportunity to run their dog. The dog did not complete the series successfully and they were given the opportunity to re-run the series. This was a gracious gesture by the Judges in my opinion. I believe every opportunity was given to allow for success. 

4. The owners of the silver lab were never told that they could not run. They were only informed of the AKC rules. 

5. The Club is obligated to follow thru on a potential complaint. It would have been a lack of responsibility for the Club to not follow up on a complaint. 

I do not have a problem with the way this issue was resolved or handled. Every Club has the duty and the responsibility to ensure that the rules per the AKC are followed and adhered to. When a potential complaint is imminent action needs to be taken and decisions need to be made promptly and sometimes "on the fly". 

Sure, I wish this did not happen, I felt very sorry for the owners of the silver lab and that it was very unfortunate. I thought the Judges handled the situation professionally as did the Stakes Chair. 

As a closing point, it was decided as a Club, that an unsportsmanship conduct complaint would be issued against the indiviual that had filed the original complaint if that complaint was pursued. And only because we felt this issue could have been handled by informing the AKC and the Club after the event. 

It has not been pursued. 

It's time to put this issue to rest. 

We as a Club wish all the best for Robert and his wife and the infamous silver lab Nelly! We certainly regret this happened.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Well said Peter. I wish more people had your tact for the fact....


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## Sunshine-WI (Feb 9, 2009)

Thanks Peter for the Facts.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Looking back over the comments in this thread, it was made clear numerous times, by those that claim to have witnessed these events, that the HT committee handled the situation appropriately. It was the undue actions caused by the initial complainant that caused all of this. From all the comments, and now hearing from the chairman, the club should be proud of the way this was handled....yet it remains unfortunate that this had to even be addressed at the test, adding additional stress on newcomers to this sport at their first hunt test. Good thing Robert appears to have thick skin.

I hope we hear how it goes this weekend!


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## lynette (Jun 26, 2005)

Hi and welcome Robert and Nellie, Since where I come from I have never seen a Silver since there aren't any yet in Australia. i do know our Lab breed clubs have tossed the subject about and most agree if they happen along we'll probably register them as chocos or maybe not, since some of our yellow Lab breeders have had thier puppy pedigrees come back from the controlling canine bodies with thier puppy colours listed as Champagne or Peach and know matter how hard they try they can't get it changed.As one breeder put it.."I guess I can live with champagne"...lol
So while you guys have Silver we. down under, have our Champagnes and Peaches.
No matter what colour,If the dog likes to work and enjoys it ...who cares...
As for Ash coloured Chessies...the only colours we get down here are Deadgrass or Ash...never knew they come in other shades till I saw all the great Chessie photos here on the forum...( I have a soft spot for Chessies)


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## Sunshine-WI (Feb 9, 2009)

So how did it go at the hunt test over this past weekend?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Sunshine-WI said:


> So how did it go at the hunt test over this past weekend?


Our training group fared ok overall with 2 MH passes, (1 fail), 2 SH passes, (1 fail) and 4 JH passes, (2 fail, silver Nellie did not pass either JH on the water). As far as any problems with a silver running, none that I heard.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

robert stoeberl said:


> I just want to say thanks to the people that have been very supportive. It was our first hunt test and yes there were some people who disapproved of the color of our dog. For the most part regarding of her color I am still going to run A.K.C hunt tests. I hope in the near future we do pass at your next hunt test! and I will keep running silver's to prove that a dog is a dog know mater the color.
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


Go get 'em Robert and Nelly... I can't tell from the comments if anyone did or said anything offensive in your presence, but if they did I hope you let it go in one ear and out the other. You can be a poodle, a woman, a whatever and there may be someone there having something to say. Who cares? Run your dog and have a good time. Be proud of your pup!!!

There are plenty who disagree with the silver lab thing. And plenty who disagree with just about anything (positive training, poodles, rubber ducks, whatever). Just do your thing and have fun, figure out what works for you.

Best wishes to you guys!!

-Kristie


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

Hi it's Robert here yes we did fail this weekend at Northern Flight. 
I ran Nelly first in water Saturday and retrieved the first bird and Nelly ran past the last bird so fail. Sunday Amy run Nelly on land first on kicked @$$. They went to the water and Nelly just played so that is what went down this weekend. Amy and I are sad we didn't pass but we will still run and hope to make it to a JH! 

Thanks 
Robert Stoeberl


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Tough break. Keep with it and you will succeed. 
You might want to ask a question or two to the RTF crowd here on how to best get past the issues that are in your way. Just don't mention the word "Silver" and you're about guaranteed to get a couple dozen different training approaches to try out.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Ironman said:


> Tough break. Keep with it and you will succeed.
> You might want to ask a question or two to the RTF crowd here on how to best get past the issues that are in your way. Just don't mention the word "Silver" and you're about guaranteed to get a couple dozen different training approaches to try out.


Yeah that!


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

robert stoeberl said:


> Hi it's Robert here yes we did fail this weekend at Northern Flight.
> I ran Nelly first in water Saturday and retrieved the first bird and Nelly ran past the last bird so fail. Sunday Amy run Nelly on land first on kicked @$$. They went to the water and Nelly just played so that is what went down this weekend. Amy and I are sad we didn't pass but we will still run and hope to make it to a JH!
> 
> Thanks
> Robert Stoeberl


I was there watching Junior B on Saturday as we waiting for Junior A. I was there with my family (including two young children). I could not believe how many loud F-bombs were dropped by the girl that was with you. That water test was no gimme and I know she was upset but that is not the kind of attitude we should be portraying to others. There were kids around (not just mine). Your dog gave it its best shot and looked like a nice, happy dog. If it's not fun, quit - otherwise get out & do some water training and smoke the next Junior! You'll get there.

Carrie


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

Iam sorry for Amy saying the f word! on sat. it was no way to go about it She is sorry and me too. I hope you made it on sat.


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

Yep - we made it & titled this weekend. Thanks for the apology - I appreciate it. Don't give up on your dog - sounds like you need a little more water work and you'll be good to go!


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

HI it's Robert I just want to say we passed at Mondovi, WI! Nelly did great but we still need a little work. I hope everyone has a great hunt season this year. and thanks to John Flink at Monday lake kennels for all the help from him and to Rick Bauer and John Unbehaun for helping this weekend and to Kim Rosploch and tom Hynes the Judges for making the day fun for all. 

Thanks Robert Stoeberl, Amy Sturino and Nelly!


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

robert stoeberl said:


> HI it's Robert I just want to say we passed at Mondovi, WI! Nelly did great but we still need a little work. I hope everyone has a great hunt season this year. and thanks to John Flink at Monday lake kennels for all the help from him and to Rick Bauer and John Unbehaun for helping this weekend and to Kim Rosploch and tom Hynes the Judges for making the day fun for all.
> 
> Thanks Robert Stoeberl, Amy Sturino and Nelly!


Congrats. 

(need a little work) Isn't that always the case?


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

Congrats guys!


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Great to hear; Congratulations!! Keep up the progress and you'll get that JH in no time.


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