# HRC Fall Grand, results after 4th series



## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Some of this info was copied from another site, pasted here.

Flight A 101

Series 1 67 Passed
Series 2 46 Passed
Series 3 23 Passed
Series 4 20 Move to Upland

Flight B 96

Series 1 82 Passed
Series 2 58 Passed
Series 3 26 Passed
Series 4 16 Move to Upland 

Flight C 97

Series 1 73 Passed
Series 2 43 Passed
Series 3 26 Passed
Series 4 20 Move to Upland

Flight D 94

Series 1 47 Passed
Series 2 22 Passed
Series 3 21 Passed
Series 4 15 Move to Upland

Total 71 dogs going to the 5th series - Upland

All dogs are winners. Black dogs are my Favorites.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

OK I just don't understand how the pass rate is so low. This is not meant to be a "The grand sucks thread". I am generally curious because I am considering running them myself next year. I don't have a lot of experience with them. I watched 3 series a few years back and have kept up with them over the years watching vidoes..ect.. I have a dog that has passed 3 master nationals in a row but the pass rate with them is usually around 30-40%. Also in general I thinking master tests are a bit harder the HRC Finished. So it seems strange that the Grand is such a step up from Finished tests. 

There are certainly many dogs there just not ready to pass a grand but I have to think a good portion are so why do so few pass? Is it small little things or is it lack of ability? Where do most dogs go out? Is it not marking the birds, blinds? Of those that do it a lot do you find it frustrating?


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

One thing Nate is in the Grand, the scores are cumulative, whereas in the MN you start over every series.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

Dman said:


> One thing Nate is in the Grand, the scores are cumulative, whereas in the MN you start over every series.


The Master National is cumulative. One dog can have a handle in the first series and another can have a handle in the 2nd and both will be carried to the 3rd series but a third dog that has handles in both will be dropped. Same with blinds. Same can be said for Master Tests and finished tests. If you handle in one series the next better be clean. 

Is there something different about the grand scoring that is different then a Finished test? I mean besides the standard? Again this is not an attack on the grand but when a good pro brings in 12-15 well breed and very well trained dogs and comes away with 2 grand passes you are like &*(&*)^&*(&* what does a guy have to do to pass. Is the standard so tight that luck comes into play?


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

Nate, there are so many variables that go into the set ups at that level, something as simple as a 180 degree wind shift, with the picture the dogs have of a mark, can cause a serious beat down. I was there, out in the third. The corn field test pass rate was very high the first couple of days. A change in conditions made it a very difficult series the last two days. That's the way it goes!! Look at D Flight pass rate out of the water test in the first series. That was a killer too. Didn't see too many dogs do it clean. I did stand next to one who did it though!!! PM me if you have any questions.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

If one wants to strive to obtain a Grand title, they are better off seeking the pros that are very successful in that game. Very few AMs pass, lots of time and money to get dropped for something that wouldnt matter in any other game. Its a special title no doubt but too risky for my pocket book to go at it without the pro advantage.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Nate_C said:


> The Master National is cumulative.* One dog can have a handle in the first series and another can have a handle in the 2nd and both will be carried to the 3rd series but a third dog that has handles in both will be dropped.* Same with blinds. Same can be said for Master Tests and finished tests. If you handle in one series the next better be clean.
> 
> Is there something different about the grand scoring that is different then a Finished test? I mean besides the standard? Again this is not an attack on the grand but when a good pro brings in 12-15 well breed and very well trained dogs and comes away with 2 grand passes you are like &*(&*)^&*(&* what does a guy have to do to pass. Is the standard so tight that luck comes into play?


That's just not true. A dog could legitimately handle in every series and still pass. Been there, seen it personally.

HRC weekend tests aren't scored. There are no numbers. Its simply pass/fail. The Grand on the other hand is scored. 0,1,or 2. The scores are cumulative. You can only score ones once and you do not have enough points to continue on. A big hunt on a mark, a handle on a mark irregardless of cleanliness, reason, or proximity to a fall, a loose blind, or loose line manners will get you ones every time. 2 cast refusals, an excessive creep, vocalization in any amount, or a big hunt and a handle in the same series will get your homebound ticket punched. 
There is some luck involved, but more than that you can't handle in a series that nobody else is handling because there's gonna be one mark that everybody is handling on that grand judges do not take into consideration and you're going to need it there. There's no reason to be scared...historically the pass rate is around 12%...it is what it is...not many pass. Just gotta be OK with that before you go running it.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

There's just not that much wiggly room in the Grand, You get 1's (marginal pass) and your done. You also got four sets of judges thus, they don't take into account what might've happened in other series, what you might've excelled in. They only care what you do under them, in their series, and the judges usually are very close in their thinking, so if they both give a 1 (you've got problems.. gulp) Then to determine if you move on they add different judges numbers, and they're aren't many numbers to add, just 0, 1 and 2, not many numbers to come up with a passing pt #. Where as You've got 1-10 to average in the master national. Is there luck involved, heck yes, but just to the point that you got to be good enough for the judges to give you 2's, which means you have to be just about perfect, in all 4 series, and keep your butt to the ground on the upland; to pass the grand. But hey there's 2 a year, and you've got ~10 years, for a dog (20 times); so you just got to be almost perfect twice . 2/20 =10%, and the pass rate =12% so every once in awhile some dogs-handler must get lucky . We won't even take into consideration amateur pass rates, wouldn't want to scare yah .

Grand scoring
1st must have judge combined (2) Score to continue =1+1,1+2, 2+2, _how often to you think 1+2 happens?_
2nd must have combines (6), Score to continue =(1+1, 2+2),(1+2,1+2) (2+2,2+2)
3rd must have (9) Lowest score to continue (1+1, 1+2, 2+2)
4th must have (13) Lowest score to continue (1+1, 1+2, 2+2, 2+2)
Total possible points for 1-4 series = 16 so theoretically you've got 3 pts to play around with, basically if 2 judge-sets give you 1+1 your done .
You get passed that, you start to pray your dog doesn't break on the upland flush, which of course is No problem; after you've been running tests for a week, with no collar .

So how many are we gonna lose in the Upland? I bet (~3-4 per flight), So I'm guessing ~63 qualifiers? Any other takers?


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> There's just not that much wiggly room in the Grand, You get 1's (marginal pass) and your done. You also got four sets of judges thus, they don't take into account what might've happened in other series, what you might've excelled in, they only care what you do under them, in their series, and the judges usually are very close in their thinking, so if they both give a 1 ( you've got problems..gulp) Then to determine if you move on they add different judges numbers, and they're aren't many numbers to add, just 0, 1 and 2, not many number to come up with a passing %. Where as You've got 1-10 to average in the master national. Is there luck involved, heck yes, but just to the point that you got to be good enough for the judges to give you 2's, which means you have to be just about perfect, in all 5 series, to pass the grand. But hey there's 2 a year, and you've got ~10 years, for a dog (20 times); so you just got to be almost perfect twice . 2/20 =10%, and the pass rate =12% so every once in awhile some dogs-handler must get lucky . We won't even take into consideration amateur pass rates, wouldn't want to scare yah .



Knowing all this... I still cant wait to get back to the grand!!! We've gone out in the 4th at Wisconsin and OK both times on the blind!!!!!!


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

JoeOverby said:


> ...historically the pass rate is around 12%...it is what it is...not many pass.


Sounds like fun.........At least Phoenix City is pretty close to home.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Wind, shadows,ect are beyond anyone's control but all play a factor. Cover takes a beating after that many dogs run the same test. The "tough series" may not be so hard. The one time I ran, the tough series was first. There is a lot of luck involved for most dogs. There is also an elite group of dogs that pass regardless of conditions. These dogs are truly exceptional.

There are a LOT of dogs with one Grand pass for a reason.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

I started this thread, but have not seen the final list of passes. I did however get a call from my dogs Trainer - Handler, Steve Earick. He passed 2 of 6 dogs, 1 of them mine, the other was her littermate sister who achieved her GRHRCH today. 

Congratulations to Steve, Tilly on her 1st pass, and GRHRCH Bourbon Belle.


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## Tigershark (Jun 20, 2011)

JJaxon,

Congrats to you, Steve and Tilly.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

JoeOverby said:


> That's just not true. A dog could legitimately handle in every series and still pass. Been there, seen it personally.
> 
> HRC weekend tests aren't scored. There are no numbers. Its simply pass/fail. The Grand on the other hand is scored. 0,1,or 2. The scores are cumulative. You can only score ones once and you do not have enough points to continue on. A big hunt on a mark, a handle on a mark irregardless of cleanliness, reason, or proximity to a fall, a loose blind, or loose line manners will get you ones every time. 2 cast refusals, an excessive creep, vocalization in any amount, or a big hunt and a handle in the same series will get your homebound ticket punched.
> There is some luck involved, but more than that you can't handle in a series that nobody else is handling because there's gonna be one mark that everybody is handling on that grand judges do not take into consideration and you're going to need it there. There's no reason to be scared...historically the pass rate is around 12%...it is what it is...not many pass. Just gotta be OK with that before you go running it.


Never said you couldn't handel in every series. I said that they are accumulative.


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

Congratulations to Tilly, a major feat!


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Andy Symons said:


> Nate, there are so many variables that go into the set ups at that level, something as simple as a 180 degree wind shift, with the picture the dogs have of a mark, can cause a serious beat down. I was there, out in the third. The corn field test pass rate was very high the first couple of days. A change in conditions made it a very difficult series the last two days. That's the way it goes!! Look at D Flight pass rate out of the water test in the first series. That was a killer too. Didn't see too many dogs do it clean. I did stand next to one who did it though!!! PM me if you have any questions.


Hammer walked into that series with an 8 and walked out on a rope!

I think that they give you the 1st pass then hook you into coming back for more!

Huge difference between the Grand and MN. One has a standard and you know what to expect. The other is "supposed" to be scored the exact same as a weekend test.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

I was at the Grand. Had a blast and come very close to getting a second pass and title. Went out in the 4th series. Had a marginal blind in the 2nd series. then had to handle on a 50 yard mark in the 4th. Way it goes. I will be back. From what I've been told MN is judged at Master level, the Grand is judged at Grand level, not Finished level.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

We are so disappointed. Rooster went through all 4 series without problems. If he had passed upland he would have received his title, he passed last year. During the upland he pointed the bird and would not break point to flush. Rooster is a steady as a rock pointing lab, waiting for his owner to flush and shoot the bird so he can retrieve. In his mind he did an ace job but it will not get the GRHRCH ribbon.


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

JJaxon said:


> I started this thread, but have not seen the final list of passes. I did however get a call from my dogs Trainer - Handler, Steve Earick. He passed 2 of 6 dogs, 1 of them mine, the other was her littermate sister who achieved her GRHRCH today.
> 
> Congratulations to Steve, Tilly on her 1st pass, and GRHRCH Bourbon Belle.


Congrats to all involved! You have got to be proud and have every right to be. I got to see all of the series but the upland and there were definitely no gimme's and the tests were tough. Lot's of very talented dogs and handlers got dropped along the way. Again, congrats!


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## Conecuh (Jun 27, 2011)

torg said:


> We are so disappointed. Rooster went through all 4 series without problems. If he had passed upland he would have received his title, he passed last year. During the upland he pointed the bird and would not break point to flush. Rooster is a steady as a rock pointing lab, waiting for his owner to flush and shoot the bird so he can retrieve. In his mind he did an ace job but it will not get the GRHRCH ribbon.


Ugh! I know that's got to be a tough pill to swallow..


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Heck I would just be tickled to death to see a mark at the Grand!

Lonnie Spann


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

torg said:


> We are so disappointed. Rooster went through all 4 series without problems. If he had passed upland he would have received his title, he passed last year. During the upland he pointed the bird and would not break point to flush. Rooster is a steady as a rock pointing lab, waiting for his owner to flush and shoot the bird so he can retrieve. In his mind he did an ace job but it will not get the GRHRCH ribbon.


 Torg it was nice to meet you in Iowa this week. I own a dog named Ely that is a GRHRCH, UH, QAA and a member of the Master National hall of fame. He has a natural point and is a great pointing lab. In fact Dale pushed me hard to title him in ALPA. I have discouraged the pointing thing from the very beginning and still had trouble getting him off point for his title run at the Grand. I consider him to be one of the most accomplished HT dogs around and the Grand title is the hardest HT title to get IMHO. Rooster is a nice dog and you can be proud of what he did in Iowa.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

FLIGHT St S1 S2 S3 S4 Upland
Flight A 101 67 46 23 20 19
Flight B 96 82 58 26 16 16
Flight C 97 73 43 26 20 18
Flight D 94 47 22 21 15 12
Total 385 282 174 98 71 *65*
17 New GRHRCH
65/385 = 16.8% pass rate


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

To Tim Doane, Congratulations to you and Stella achieving her Grand title.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

TIM DOANE said:


> Torg it was nice to meet you in Iowa this week. I own a dog named Ely that is a GRHRCH, UH, QAA and a member of the Master National hall of fame. He has a natural point and is a great pointing lab. In fact Dale pushed me hard to title him in ALPA. I have discouraged the pointing thing from the very beginning and still had trouble getting him off point for his title run at the Grand. I consider him to be one of the most accomplished HT dogs around and the Grand title is the hardest HT title to get IMHO. Rooster is a nice dog and you can be proud of what he did in Iowa.


Heard a lot about Ely. He is also very handsome. Sister-in-law has one of his pups that she thinks highly of. We are still proud of Rooster, Ronnie Lee his handler said he did a nice job the entire test, even lining a tough blind. We love the pointing aspect but we wish Rooster had been a flusher for a moment. Luck was with us last year because we had a nervous bird that flushed when he went on point.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

My girl Tilly.

She is home, now lets go hunting.


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

torg said:


> We are so disappointed. Rooster went through all 4 series without problems. If he had passed upland he would have received his title, he passed last year. During the upland he pointed the bird and would not break point to flush. Rooster is a steady as a rock pointing lab, waiting for his owner to flush and shoot the bird so he can retrieve. In his mind he did an ace job but it will not get the GRHRCH ribbon.



Man that is heartbreaking - yet so awesome at the same time. Pardon the dumb question, but I suppose the dog has to flush the bird, which never happened. Once the dog locates the bird, is there a certain amount of time until allowed until the dog has to flush it? Does he have a "flush command", or does he always wait for the handler to flush the bird?


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## ada5771 (Oct 31, 2012)

JJaxon said:


> My girl Tilly.
> 
> She is home, now lets go hunting.


Congratulations Steve and wish both of yall luck in the future!


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

ada5771 said:


> Congratulations, looks like you need to update your signature to "GRHRCH TilHe CallsUsHome-Tilly"


Congratulations to Steve, Tilly on her *1st pass*, and GRHRCH Bourbon Belle. 

She's still got one more to go.


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## ada5771 (Oct 31, 2012)

Duckquilizer said:


> Congratulations to Steve, Tilly on her *1st pass*, and GRHRCH Bourbon Belle.
> 
> She's still got one more to go.


Ahh thought it was her second


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

ada5771 said:


> Ahh thought it was her second


Yes, it is her 1st pass, but my smile is just as big. :BIG:


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## waterdog711 (Jan 18, 2011)

Having the dog hold her own ribbons - priceless!


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree, I love Tilly's picture holding her ribbons. She looks so proud. Nice background, too. Glad your smile is really big.
Colleen


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

JJaxon said:


> My girl Tilly.
> 
> She is home, now lets go hunting.


Good looking too.......love morgan pups have a couple of litters sired by him...all the way in Australia.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

I've been to the Grand several times  first one was the Cinderella Story, AM handler / Trainer never saw the grand goes and passes... well next try we made it to the third and old Miss Meg broke on the second bird out..... on to Louisiana, train for a week before hand in TX and she fails the bitch check the first morning....gotta love those little girls. Then OK we lasted until the third test Mudzilla went out on the blind. Last one was Texarkana made it to the fourth and she pointed out due to marginal marking the first day and then again on the fourth. Meg has now been retired with one grand pass, but she has several nice black and whites to go with all her other ribbons. She is my grand dog even though she didn't get the title. I love the grand and love the challenge is poses for me. I will be back with my new dog Sweetpea, I think it will be the Fall grand in 2014 in TN, that was a great place to run, even though they did have a bunch of snakes 

It was a pleasure to judge all the dogs that made it to my test. I was honored.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

It's nice to read that someone is as enthusiastic as Margo about the HRC Grand Hunt Test. I haven't spent much time at "Grands" and never learned how the judging was supposed to be done. The tests at the recent one looked "do-able" to me and the little dog work I watched seemed quite good, so with such a low pass rate, the judging must be very strict in some regards.

No question that it's a huge commercial success and if folks like Margo like the game, best wishes to you all, y'all.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Keith, 
A lot of HRC members never aspire to have their dog run the grand, it takes a lot of time and commitment to get there, not to mention the cost and time on the road. The pros have success because they clearly understand what it takes to get the pass. Some AM's like myself have learned through trial and error what it takes, but as some say the Grand like a lot of the big games is 45% training, 45% dog and 10% luck.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Margo Ellis said:


> I've been to the Grand several times  first one was the Cinderella Story, AM handler / Trainer never saw the grand goes and passes... well next try we made it to the third and old Miss Meg broke on the second bird out..... on to Louisiana, train for a week before hand in TX and she fails the bitch check the first morning....gotta love those little girls. Then OK we lasted until the third test Mudzilla went out on the blind. Last one was Texarkana made it to the fourth and she pointed out due to marginal marking the first day and then again on the fourth. Meg has now been retired with one grand pass, but she has several nice black and whites to go with all her other ribbons. She is my grand dog even though she didn't get the title. I love the grand and love the challenge is poses for me. I will be back with my new dog Sweetpea, I think it will be the Fall grand in 2014 in TN, that was a great place to run, even though they did have a bunch of snakes
> 
> It was a pleasure to judge all the dogs that made it to my test. I was honored.


Your test was my favorite.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

Aussie said:


> Good looking too.......love morgan pups have a couple of litters sired by him...all the way in Australia.


Ah that's wonderful to know. Bill had told me about the selection for Australia, but I've never notived a post here about any pups or litters. We are related, kind of... 

Thanks to all for the kind comments, Tilly is my one of a kind girl, my buddy, and she lives for the birds.


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## GilWlsn (Jan 18, 2008)

i_willie12 said:


> Knowing all this... I still cant wait to get back to the grand!!! We've gone out in the 4th at Wisconsin and OK both times on the blind!!!!!!


Yep. Dad's started a savings account. If all my evil plans play out....
I maybe running a dog at the next one....... ( Page)


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## Jon Hass (Aug 21, 2008)

I lost one dog in the first for line manners. Which she should have got dropped. Then my second dog pointed out in the third. After all the horror stories I heard I was leary of running. Now that I have been, I had a blast. I have never walked off the line after not making it smiling until the third series of the Grand. I feel like it was judged very fair. Honestly there are some dogs that don't need to be there and that contributes to the pass rate. A very trusted friend and fellow pro told me if you have 300 points and also hold a Master title you should do well at the Grand. It is definately not a place for a green 100 point dog. All you can do is train hard and Pray just as hard.


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