# 2022 NARC



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Just checked on entries and this is the third dog entered, DOB 2/11/2021 and the handler is a pro….

Starlight Luckys Reggie Love William AcostaPaul Cacciatori (P 
Obviously someone made a serious mistake entering a Derby for $350…🤔


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

EdA said:


> Obviously someone made a serious mistake entering a Derby for $350…🤔


Running a double junior this weekend. Should be a good tune up for the national.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

whoops! Guessing maybe they meant to enter the derby in MD the previous weekend? LOL!!! 

Hope they get a full refund!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Could it be they were inspired by the Kentucky Derby winner?


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

New handler made a mistake on EE? It is a junker of an antique website. I recently signed up my future show dog Terrier on a show dog entry service. Took me less than 5 minutes, I added my pro handler as an account user and he entered her in dog shows the next day. It was a refreshing change of an entry website.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

98 entries as of closing. Maybe a few more qualify this weekend.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Well, who wins?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

birddogn_tc said:


> Well, who wins?


Pick out the top 20-25 dogs, the winner will come from that list


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Well, I don't know the top 20-25 dogs because I only know a handful of the dogs running. But one way to look at it is "total AA points" by the entrants. I sorted the below chart by total all-age points.

Obviously age plays a factor into total AA points but I still thought this was a fun way to look at the entries. Sorted this way, of the top 25 dogs, most dogs are 8+ and there are 4 dogs that are 6 years old and one dog that is 5.5 years old. Just thought it was interesting to look at. Enjoy.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Not entirely sure why or ??? - but the numbers on at least one of those is wrong (according to retriever results)


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

human error/typo by ME most likely. which one?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

birddogn_tc said:


> Well, I don't know the top 20-25 dogs because I only know a handful of the dogs running. But one way to look at it is "total AA points" by the entrants. I sorted the below chart by total all-age points.
> 
> Obviously age plays a factor into total AA points but I still thought this was a fun way to look at the entries. Sorted this way, of the top 25 dogs, most dogs are 8+ and there are 4 dogs that are 6 years old and one dog that is 5.5 years old. Just thought it was interesting to look at. Enjoy.
> 
> View attachment 89741


A good start, now see how many of those have been Natl Am finalists or Open finalists with an Amateur handler.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

birddogn_tc said:


> human error/typo by ME most likely. which one?


Bubba's dog FC AFC Oakley. Although I'm certain he'd love to have 65.5 aa points. (Not taking away from her accomplishments, either - I believe she made it to the 5th series at the national open last year? (or am?)


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> A good start, now see how many of those have been Natl Am finalists or Open finalists with an Amateur handler.


dog 11 --- a finalist at both and also completely amateur handled and trained (well, he does train with Wayne Curtis, so there is that! LOL!!) Not sure of others, I only know about his stats because I have used him twice as a stud dog.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

there are two NFCs and two NAFCs in the field


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Bubba's dog FC AFC Oakley. Although I'm certain he'd love to have 65.5 aa points. (Not taking away from her accomplishments, either - I believe she made it to the 5th series at the national open last year? (or am?)


Thanks. Not sure how that happened. Fixed and updated.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

EdA said:


> A good start, now see how many of those have been Natl Am finalists or Open finalists with an Amateur handler.


hmmm, that would be fun to know but not sure I could find all that info accurately. At least not in a timely manner.

Off the top of my head I know some of the 2022 NARC handlers are previous winners and/or finalists of a National Open or National AM (some people are multiple time finalists). See below of winners and known finalists...I don't know all of the people entered and their records in National Events, so my apologies if I missed someone, it is not intentional...

Delma Hazzard - 1981 NARC win
Alex Washburn 2016 NARC
Charlie Hines - 2016 NFC winner
Mark Medford - 2017 NRC win
Lauren Hays - 2019 NRC Win
Doreen Comrie-bristol - 2021 NARC win
Alvin Hatcher - 2021 NFC winner
Johnny Armstrong
Robby Bickley
Sylvia McClure
Wayne Carey
Jeff Schuett
Joel Harris
Andy Kahn
Joe Couey


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

birddogn_tc said:


> hmmm, that would be fun to know but not sure I could find all that info accurately. At least not in a timely manner.
> 
> Off the top of my head I know some of the 2022 NARC handlers are previous winners and/or finalists of a National Open or National AM (some people are multiple time finalists). See below of winners and known finalists...I don't know all of the people entered and their records in National Events, so my apologies if I missed someone, it is not intentional...
> 
> ...


Suzan Caire
Charlie Hines
Breck Howard
Bill Fruehling
Jim Powers
but this has become a handler’s list not a dog list, previous success as a handler does not insure current or future success
It’s More About the Horse than the Jockey regards…


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

The 2022 NARC event is about to happen !
My 2 teams came up short meaning we didn’t qualify. We had the points but not the win. If we had qualified we would have gone as life is short and the dogs life’s are shorter. But enough.
We have many friends there with talented animals. We hope all your marks are front footed and the blinds are lined . I m excited for each one of u guys so “ kick that can smartly “
Take in those moments ! 
Dave and Marty


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

birddogn_tc said:


> Well, I don't know the top 20-25 dogs because I only know a handful of the dogs running. But one way to look at it is "total AA points" by the entrants. I sorted the below chart by total all-age points.
> 
> Obviously age plays a factor into total AA points but I still thought this was a fun way to look at the entries. Sorted this way, of the top 25 dogs, most dogs are 8+ and there are 4 dogs that are 6 years old and one dog that is 5.5 years old. Just thought it was interesting to look at. Enjoy.
> 
> View attachment 89742


Interesting list, thanks for sharing.
I'm sort of surprised that Tucker isn't running as he would be 2nd on your list
He's qualified at 11 years old and still running well and still winning/placing regularly 
Good luck and congratulations to all the dog teams there


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

birddogn_tc said:


> human error/typo by ME most likely. which one?





Also Choppers Final Approach isnt even on you list with 133 AA points


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Steve Shaver said:


> Also Choppers Final Approach isnt even on you list with 133 AA points


Better check that list again Steve; start at number six


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Interesting list, thanks for sharing.
> I'm sort of surprised that Tucker isn't running as he would be 2nd on your list
> He's qualified at 11 years old and still running well and still winning/placing regularly
> Good luck and congratulations to all the dog teams there


I talked to more than one person when I judged in VA a couple of weeks ago who were staying home, too far coast to coast.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> Also Choppers Final Approach isnt even on you list with 133 AA points


Oh yes she is 
Joel Harris


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Steve Shaver said:


> Also Choppers Final Approach isnt even on you list with 133 AA points


Choppers Final Approach is the 6th dog on the list


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

tigerfan said:


> I'm sort of surprised that Tucker isn't running


Me too, perhaps Alex is worried about high fuel prices? 🤣😂
He came to our trial in 2020 (which Jake won🙂) and several in the Midwest when everything in the east was shut down. Was nice to see Tucker run and a couple of his younger dogs too. 

I have no idea why Alex and Tucker are not entered. I do know several who didn't enter due to the long drive and also a concern about grass awns.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Tobias said:


> Bubba's dog FC AFC Oakley. Although I'm certain he'd love to have 65.5 aa points. (Not taking away from her accomplishments, either - I believe she made it to the 5th series at the national open last year? (or am?)


Yeah. We have 34. Made it 8 series in Ronan and 6 series in Mondovi.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

An accomplishment to be proud of for sure Bubba!


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Me too, perhaps Alex is worried about high fuel prices? 🤣😂
> He came to our trial in 2020 (which Jake won🙂) and several in the Midwest when everything in the east was shut down. Was nice to see Tucker run and a couple of his younger dogs too.
> 
> I have no idea why Alex and Tucker are not entered. I do know several who didn't enter due to the long drive and also a concern about grass awns.


Alex replied to me as being on the East Coast it’s such a long haul. I think that he is a wise man and taking good care of his dog without having to prove anything at this point with him. At Tucker’s age training & hauling so far to Oregon may be to big of a risk. But I’m no expert.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

And for others, running in high humidity is equally dangerous for dogs not used to it.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Starts tomorrow. Good luck to everyone running!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

birddogn_tc said:


> Starts tomorrow. Good luck to everyone running!


#68 starts
2023 NARC Ronan MT
judges Randy Spangler, Barbara Younglove, Rob Reuter


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Hope we qualify!


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Tobias said:


> dog 11 --- a finalist at both and also completely amateur handled and trained (well, he does train with Wayne Curtis, so there is that! LOL!!) Not sure of others, I only know about his stats because I have used him twice as a stud dog.


I will say that Joe currently trains in the evening now with groups of Amateurs as he’s is no longer a Teacher with summers off. So he doesn’t have the luxury of Training with Wayne like he used to. I’m with a group on Tuesday & Thursdays with him.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Me too, perhaps Alex is worried about high fuel prices? 🤣😂
> He came to our trial in 2020 (which Jake won🙂) and several in the Midwest when everything in the east was shut down. Was nice to see Tucker run and a couple of his younger dogs too.
> 
> I have no idea why Alex and Tucker are not entered. I do know several who didn't enter due to the long drive and also a concern about grass awns.


When Alex and I were having lunch at the National last November, he told me that he wasn't going to Oregon with an 11 year old dog. Tucker was already qualified at that point. I figured he would change his mind. I was surprised and disappointed when he didn't.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Don Smith said:


> I was surprised and disappointed when he didn't.


Why? 

Geez, the dog is 11 years old. He owes Alex NOTHING!!! Try to remember for some our dogs are an extension of our family. Do you think your grandparents would enjoy a drive from one coast to another? I don't nor would I consider putting them thru that. GREAT for Alex for doing what he feels is in the best interest of his best friend AND family member.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Reginald said:


> Why?
> 
> Geez, the dog is 11 years old. He owes Alex NOTHING!!! Try to remember for some our dogs are an extension of our family. Do you think your grandparents would enjoy a drive from one coast to another? I don't nor would I consider putting them thru that. GREAT for Alex for doing what he feels is in the best interest of his best friend AND family member.


Dang, are you putting gunpowder in your Cheerios 😉


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

EdA said:


> Pick out the top 20-25 dogs, the winner will come from that list


When you say Top 20-25 dogs, do you mean in points?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> When you say Top 20-25 dogs, do you mean in points?


Not necessarily because some of those are 9 and 10 years old, an age at which dogs do not typically win Nationals. Think the most successful with their Amateur handler for the past 12-18 months, previous Finalists, previous NARChampions.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

EdA said:


> Not necessarily because some of those are 9 and 10 years old, an age at which dogs do not typically win Nationals. Think the most successful with their Amateur handler for the past 12-18 months, previous Finalists, previous NARChampions.


Got it!! I’m not going to get anything done this week! Constant “refresh” on my browser!! Might get yelled at a few times not being ready quick enough out throwing birds this week. Whatever 😏, you get what you pay for 🤣


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> Got it!! I’m not going to get anything done this week! Constant “refresh” on my browser!! Might get yelled at a few times not being ready quick enough out throwing birds this week. Whatever 😏, you get what you pay for 🤣


I understand that, lower anxiety level here since #10 ran. A couple of good dogs have picked up


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

EdA said:


> I understand that, lower anxiety level here since #10 ran. A couple of good dogs have picked up


Is it just me, or is this 1st/2nd Series this year kinda “mean”? Historically, did they make the first couple Series manageable to at least give the Handles the time to enjoy the experience of the NARC and reward their “time & money”. Just asking to learn. Thanks!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> Is it just me, or is this 1st/2nd Series this year kinda “mean”? Historically, did they make the first couple Series manageable to at least give the Handles the time to enjoy the experience of the NARC and reward their “time & money”. Just asking to learn. Thanks!


It is a normal first and second, there have been more difficult ones but it is important most of all to finish in one day and get some answers which they have. What you don’t know unless you are there or have a good source (I do) there has been lots of hunting on the memory bird which doesn’t matter now but will come in to play later for some dogs.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

EdA said:


> It is a normal first and second, there have been more difficult ones but it is important most of all to finish in one day and get some answers which they have. What you don’t know unless you are there or have a good source (I do) there has been lots of hunting on the memory bird which doesn’t matter now but will come in to play later for some dogs.


“A” good source? Figured you’d have several!!!
Onto Sunday!! On a side note, sent all 3 boys out golfing with the Hubby for Father’s Day. Oh the sacrifices I have to make. Staying back home with nothing to do 😞😏. Shucks! 🤫😉


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Reginald said:


> Why?


Merely because I enjoy "watching" how the couple of dogs I've produced litters from are doing in the nationals (as well as how they're doing in weekend trials).


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> Not necessarily because some of those are 9 and 10 years old, an age at which dogs do not typically win Nationals. Think the most successful with their Amateur handler for the past 12-18 months, previous Finalists, previous NARChampions.


Do you think a dog that is consistently finishing trials (not necessarily placing) - let's say is finishing somewhere between 30 and 50% of the trials, but with only the minimum points to qualify for a national, has greater chance of being a finalist or winning than a dog that has run and placed in 15%-20% of trials, but otherwise doesn't finish (JAM)?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Do you think a dog that is consistently finishing trials (not necessarily placing) - let's say is finishing somewhere between 30 and 50% of the trials, but with only the minimum points to qualify for a national, has greater chance of being a finalist or winning than a dog that has run and placed in 15%-20% of trials, but otherwise doesn't finish (JAM)?


No


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> Is it just me, or is this 1st/2nd Series this year kinda “mean”? Historically, did they make the first couple Series manageable to at least give the Handles the time to enjoy the experience of the NARC and reward their “time & money”. Just asking to learn. Thanks!


 To me - * "Mean" - *is expressed in the callbacks, not the test difficulty. From my perspective - as both a judge and a contestant - I want hard tests to challenge dogs/handlers that create separation. But, I want the dogs and handlers to have an opportunity to enjoy the experience. The judges here only dropped 2 dogs - both pickups. So, I don't view them as mean at all.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Wish they would actually run a land blind that's more difficult than a weekend finished blind...


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

2 Days - why Nationals get boring.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Trouble brewing with the 3rd/4th?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> Wish they would actually run a land blind that's more difficult than a weekend finished blind...


Unfortunately time constraints don’t permit big hard all age blinds, especially land blinds. Also some judges have an aversion to dogs going out on blinds in a National.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

EdA said:


> time constraints don’t permit big hard all age blinds, especially land blinds.


???
Big water blinds take much longer.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> ???
> Big water blinds take much longer.


That too but never the first one and often not the last one but number of dogs makes it more feasible


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Trouble brewing with the 3rd/4th?


Was a new tradition born from last years 3rd series?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

lots of dogs not making it at this point. 5 of 12 so far have done the series without handling, the rest have handled and several not invited to run the blind.
Blue (Rimfire's Once In A Blue Moon) appears to have gotten a lucky break with a splash bird on the retired mark. Everyone deserves a lucky break every once in a while!


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Right Retried mowing them down.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

Tobias said:


> lots of dogs not making it at this point. 5 of 12 so far have done the series without handling, the rest have handled and several not invited to run the blind.
> Blue (Rimfire's Once In A Blue Moon) appears to have gotten a lucky break with a splash bird on the retired mark. Everyone deserves a lucky break every once in a while!


Blue is a beast of a dog. Certainly a splash helps, but he’s fun to watch run.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> To me - * "Mean" - *is expressed in the callbacks, not the test difficulty. From my perspective - as both a judge and a contestant - I want hard tests to challenge dogs/handlers that create separation. But, I want the dogs and handlers to have an opportunity to enjoy the experience. The judges here only dropped 2 dogs - both pickups. So, I don't view them as mean at all.


Good point! Bad choice of word on my part!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> Good point! Bad choice of word on my part!


The 3/4 may turn out to be "mean." The way things are going, a number of dogs will not be returning for the 5th.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

It's a whopper.... 

Judd - I would love to see him run some time. I think a splash helps but certainly it doesn't always mean the dog will come up with the mark easily.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Last I looked 28 dogs ran 
13 handles 
6 pick ups


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> Last I looked 28 dogs ran
> 13 handles
> 6 pick ups


The handles earlier were desperation ones trying to salvage something. After watching enough of those and understanding the risks of hoping for a recovery the handlers are now doing strategic handles to stop the bleeding realizing that there will be handles called back.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Bryan Parks said:


> Last I looked 28 dogs ran
> 13 handles
> 6 pick ups


Crazy, it’s just a double and a blind, nothing more than a senior hunt test set up.😎


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> The handles earlier were desperation ones trying to salvage something. After watching enough of those and understanding the risks of hoping for a recovery the handlers are now doing strategic handles to stop the bleeding realizing that there will be handles called back.


In this case it sucked to be running early.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> In this case it sucked to be running early.


It generally does


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I guess it’s en vogue to shoot flyers into the test with relatively tight fall areas so the difficulty of the test is adjusted by the length of the flyers. I’m hoping that trend doesn’t make its way to weekend trials.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Crazy, it’s just a double and a blind, nothing more than a senior hunt test set up.😎


That right retired was no joke!


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> The 3/4 may turn out to be "mean." The way things are going, a number of dogs will not be returning for the 5th.


All I know is, whoever is writing the Blog, does a Helluva job!!


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

EdA said:


> It generally does


Isn't it interesting, no Quad with multiple retires, heck not even a triple with 2 retires. Just a good old double with one retired and look what is happening. Let this be a lesson to those who think you need a Quad to get results.

The other thing to note, neither set up was interrupted.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Reginald said:


> Isn't it interesting, no Quad with multiple retires, heck not even a triple with 2 retires. Just a good old double with one retired and look what is happening. Let this be a lesson to those who think you need a Quad to get results.
> 
> The other thing to note, neither set up was interrupted.


Yeah, just a run of the mill double 😳 The black dots were where most flyers fell, the red dot was the long ones. 57 dogs run, 31 handles and 7 pickups


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

EdA said:


> Yeah, just a run of the mill double 😳 The black dots were where most flyers fell, the red dot was the long ones. 57 dogs run, 31 handles and 7 pickups
> View attachment 89781


I'm going to assume you understood the point I was trying to make.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

EdA said:


> Yeah, just a run of the mill double 😳 The black dots were where most flyers fell, the red dot was the long ones. 57 dogs run, 31 handles and 7 pickups
> View attachment 89781


Like a major FT'er once told me a long time ago while judging a Derby. Put a little water in front of a dog and watch what happens. Granted these are AA dogs but none the less, a golf tourney doesn't start until the weekend, @ a FT it generally starts with the water. Well placed birds around the water and look what you have. 

Who knows, like someone mentioned earlier about a new tradition, maybe wiping out 50% of the field early, just like a weekend trial, is the new norm.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Reginald said:


> Who knows, like someone mentioned earlier about a new tradition, maybe wiping out 50% of the field early, just like a weekend trial, is the new norm.


If there is a new tradition, I hope its just good honest tests that carry the dogs that mark and eliminate the dogs that don't.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Tobias said:


> In this case it sucked to be running early.


Just early huh?


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

EdA said:


> Yeah, just a run of the mill double 😳 The black dots were where most flyers fell, the red dot was the long ones. 57 dogs run, 31 handles and 7 pickups
> View attachment 89781


That's not a good picture. The flier station and dead bird station were equal distance or close in the field. No bird ever got close to the far mound from the flier station. The dots do not accurately represent where birds fell at all in my opinion as a flier thrower and dead bird thrower. I won't comment more for fairness to the trial, test and contestants. Just quelling internet speculators from a first hand pov


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Just early huh?


yes - Or would you have preferred to run 3-10th dog just as well as dog 50?


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Here goes 
Before the intranet second guessing gets in full swing consider all these people are volunteers including the judges. No one wants a sh-t show on their watch! 
Would it be so terrible if the winner had a handle or forbid two ? Then many would say a good tough National with hard tests.
Yes it was a double and I d wager before it started the plan was to be done in 1 day. No one wants a split test if it can be avoided and how times have we seen day 2 of split tests be entirely different. 
Its not in our society norm to be patient these days but give it a chance. Then if deserved light the fire. But a lot of gum banging by folks not there and add little to no national experiences Just does not feel right. 
Personally I d would like to be there and pit my team against that setup. 
dk


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Tobias said:


> yes - Or would you have preferred to run 3-10th dog just as well as dog 50?


It does not matter to me. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and sometimes neither.
I can't control when I run at a trial so I don't worry about it.

It doesn't look like it mattered much yesterday in the 3rd.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Dave Kress said:


> Personally I d would like to be there and pit my team against that setup.


Me too, I love a small but very challenging marking test, maybe not so much right after failing it but generally speaking.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Tobias said:


> yes - Or would you have preferred to run 3-10th dog just as well as dog 50?


Didn't matter what time of day at all. It was a great marking test. Dogs didn't get to wind the retired bird in a double. Makes them be required to mark.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Dave Kress said:


> Here goes
> Before the intranet second guessing gets in full swing consider all these people are volunteers including the judges. No one wants a sh-t show on their watch!
> *Would it be so terrible if the winner had a handle or forbid two ? *Then many would say a good tough National with hard tests.
> Yes it was a double and I d wager before it started the plan was to be done in 1 day. No one wants a split test if it can be avoided and how times have we seen day 2 of split tests be entirely different.
> ...





Well I agree sort of. No it would not be the end of the world for the winner to have a handle or two but I have to ask why??? Especially so early in the game and 3/4 of the field. Im not about to place blame here. Like you said everybody involved in putting on the trial are volunteers and greatly appreciated. I will not criticize at all but I do not want to see handles become the norm be it in a National or a weekend trial. Like you I would love to attempt this test.
When I started running hunt tests you could maybe get away with one quick handle, now their way of thinking is that you must have at least one clean triple for a master pass. I would just hate to see field trials go down this sort of path of handles or multiple handles being the norm.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I'd like to ask all the people who paved the way - in this series of a national trial - who had to pick up their dogs if they would have chosen to handle a little earlier if they could go back and do it again........ In the first 28 dogs there were 11 handles and 6 pickups. In the next 29 dogs there were 20 handles and one pick up. That's a pretty significant difference. Seems like there is a reason for it????


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Right when I saw that right retired I thought "wow that's a tough mark" without even thinking about if a flyer went long.

Throwing from shore to shore, cover, terrain, placement etc. That's just a really tough mark in my opinion.

Then if you do have a dog who gets deep, maybe even trying to be good and swims to the end of the channel, can get in trouble with the flyer fall.

There were dogs who did it right.


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Dave Kress said:


> Would it be so terrible if the winner had a handle or forbid two ?


1994 had 1 dog that did not handle - It was not the winner. 
It was a very nice trial to watch & pre-internet so there was 
no 2nd guessing from the popcorn crowd. I watched & watched 
& watched the dog that did not handle hunt a bird out of area
for several minutes. 

Running early on a tough test means you draw on your experience
as a handler with that dog. Very few handlers are able to scope a 
test at the start & make those decisions that will benefit the team
on any particular test. The time when being involved with all your 
dog's training is a benefit.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Dave Kress said:


> Here goes
> Before the intranet second guessing gets in full swing consider all these people are volunteers including the judges. No one wants a sh-t show on their watch!
> Would it be so terrible if the winner had a handle or forbid two ? Then many would say a good tough National with hard tests.
> Yes it was a double and I d wager before it started the plan was to be done in 1 day. No one wants a split test if it can be avoided and how times have we seen day 2 of split tests be entirely different.
> ...


1. Every test set up is timed, they knew they would not finish and announced that in the beginning. Swimming 3 times and hunting makes completing a test with 90 dogs in one day impossible.
2. Dogs have won Nationals with a handle, it’s been awhile but it will happen again. The only time 2 handles gets you to the end is when the 2nd handle is in the10th. It would be a very unusual unprecedented event for a dog with 2 handles to be called back to the 10th series
3. I don’t think anyone ”lit a fire”. The dead bird was a very a well placed bird, an unnatural place for a dog to go unless they marked the bird. The test was very hard, I suspect harder than the judges expected but the judges only get two or three shots at testing water marking. The first set of water marks always has serious time constraints so getting answers is imperative and they definitely are getting answers. For the sake of those who have run I hope the wind does not change and give the short bird away. There were numbers of dogs who swam by the bird yesterday because they did not mark it well, if the test holds up it will be remembered as one of the more difficult 3rd series water marks in any National.
4. It’s too bad that the internet allows so much misinterpretation that any discussion with even the least bit of critique stimulates over reaction. We are very aware that almost everyone there is a volunteer and discussing the merits of a test does not suggest that anyone does not recognize nor appreciate everyone’s contribution. I have been there many times having served in every capacity from committee member to committee Chairman to Chief Marshall to Field Trial Chairman to NRC President to NRC judge.
5. Good luck to the 35 dogs and handlers.who have not run whatever the outcome it will always be a memorable experience. For the 57 dogs and handlers who have run I hope the test doesn’t change as it sometimes does with split tests.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Looking forward to the 5th or 6th ‘cus that’s when it gets tough.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Looking forward to the 5th or 6th ‘cus that’s when it gets tough.


The fifth is historically a land quad which sometimes becomes a triple because of conditions which could include the aftermath of a bloodbath. 😉 If the judges keep their foot on the gas tighten your dealt belt.


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## pappy (Nov 23, 2009)

Dave Kress said:


> Here goes
> Before the intranet second guessing gets in full swing consider all these people are volunteers including the judges. No one wants a sh-t show on their watch!
> Would it be so terrible if the winner had a handle or forbid two ? Then many would say a good tough National with hard tests.
> Yes it was a double and I d wager before it started the plan was to be done in 1 day. No one wants a split test if it can be avoided and how times have we seen day 2 of split tests be entirely different.
> ...



During Set-Ups you have to wonder how many times the Flyer Guns were relocated - Further OUT - Further Right - Back towards the Line / and or How many times was the Retired Gunner Relocated - throwing right to left or any other scenario. Remember there are three judges as well as the Field Trial Committee over seeing Set-Ups. At any time during the first twenty or so dogs they could have scrapped the test [this has been done in the past].
FWIW - I like what they did

Lastly I am more interested in how much of a factor being *right of the stake* on the blind is going to affect Dogs Dropped.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> 1994 had 1 dog that did not handle - It was not the winner.
> It was a very nice trial to watch & pre-internet so there was
> no 2nd guessing from the popcorn crowd. I watched & watched
> & watched the dog that did not handle hunt a bird out of area
> ...


In 1987 when Jemima won the NARC they had a similar bird thrown across a channel to the near side. The dogs who didn’t mark it did what any well trained dog would do if they don’t remember where the bird is, swim to the end of the channel. It was early in the trial and sent me and quite few others with high expectations to spectator status.😉 And yes, Jemima nailed it as she often did, now she and Eva were quite a pair.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

The time restraint concern is becoming ridiculous to hear year after year. *Traditionally* the National starts on a Saturday. However, this premier event is no longer a 1 week thing, it is a 2 week deal if you are a player or a volunteer. If starting the trial on a Friday bucks *tradition* in order to give the trial the proper time it needs to be run as a *premier* event then so be it. 
If not, then reduce it from 10 tests to 7. 3 sets of land marks, 3 sets of water marks then finish, as was the case many years ago, with your tough, fair blind that includes lots of land and lots of water. Since the overwhelming majority feel that National blinds don't carry much weight. If you lose a handful of dogs on the blind that ends the trial again, so be it. The powers that be generally make dogs, who by this time in the 10th series are on edge along with having happy feet, sit and watch 3 and sometimes 4 fliers. At that point a dog can just as easily break on one of those fliers as they could fail a blind. 

As the *premier* event of the trial game stop letting *tradition* get in the way of making it just that two times a year, *thee premier event in the field trial game.*


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Reginald said:


> As the *premier* event of the trial game stop letting *tradition* get in the way of making it just that two times a year, *thee premier event in the field trial game.*


Tradition? They’re not even letting the holiday get in the way.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Armchair quarterbacking is an integral part of any sporting event. In no particular order, my thoughts are as follows:

1. The retired birds in both series 1 and series 3 were cunning.

2. I think both birds would have worked with a flyer shot out of the test.

3. I like to watch good gunners ride flyers out - especially pheasants.

4. Tight converging flyers typically mean:
a) The gunners are not riding the birds out;
b) There are a lot of no-birds; or
c) A big flyer is even more detrimental to the dog/handler
As you might gather, I am not a fan of shooting the flyer into a tight test 

5. I suspect that series 1 and especially 3, gave the judges more action than they anticipated. It will be interesting to see what the work is today and whether the judges throttle back for the 5th.

Ted


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Bet the ones getting to run this morning had a great nights sleep!!

Arm chair quarterback Regards,

Aaron*


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Doesn’t look like the test got any easier this morning.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Doesn’t look like the test got any easier this morning.





drunkenpoacher said:


> Doesn’t look like the test got any easier this morning.


Yeah - everyone is handling so far. what a shocker. LOL


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This was the flyer for a test throw before the test dog ran, reliable sources said this is typical length for the flyer, some longer. This explains why people are handling quickly when the dogs exit the water on the gun side.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

EdA said:


> View attachment 89790
> 
> This was the flyer for a test throw before the test dog ran, reliable sources said this is typical length for the flyer, some longer. This explains why people are handling quickly when the dogs exit the water on the gun side.


Can’t hardly let ‘em hunt for fear of the old fall!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

That's an amazing photo... sure does make things more 'clear' - from the keyboard anyway. Thanks Dr Ed


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

compare to the other photo, you can see the relation of depressed area to the backside of the dead bird station.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Looks like our resident competitor Bubba just had the first good job of the day..


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Tobias said:


> I'd like to ask all the people who paved the way - in this series of a national trial - who had to pick up their dogs if they would have chosen to handle a little earlier if they could go back and do it again........ In the first 28 dogs there were 11 handles and 6 pickups. In the next 29 dogs there were 20 handles and one pick up. That's a pretty significant difference. Seems like there is a reason for it????


I’m speculating here, everyone from Series 1/2 were brought back except the dogs that were Picked-Up. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to take a gamble with a Handle, rather then a Pick-Up of your Dog? Lesson as a Handler, don’t let your dog get into trouble with a tough test, when a quick Handle will keep them in the game, it’s not a Derby. Thoughts?


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Yay Bubba and Oakley!


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Here’s a thought…..maybe they just want to save on Birds! Is there a Bird shortage we don’t know about?


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

MarniSampair said:


> I’m speculating here, everyone from Series 1/2 were brought back except the dogs that were Picked-Up. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to take a gamble with a Handle, rather then a Pick-Up of your Dog? Lesson as a Handler, don’t let your dog get into trouble with a tough test, when a quick Handle will keep them in the game, it’s not a Derby. Thoughts?


It would appear most people are attempting a quick handle if the dog gets somewhere close. If the dog gets picked up, something else went very wrong (dog wouldn't handle to bird, etc etc etc).


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Aaron Homburg said:


> *Bet the ones getting to run this morning had a great nights sleep!!
> 
> Arm chair quarterback Regards,
> 
> Aaron*


Could have called me at 2:00 AM


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Here’s a different question. . . . What’s the most # of dogs qualified by one amateur to a single NARC? Anyone qualified 4 dogs in a year? Maybe more?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Go Bubba. As to the blind. I believe they gave instructions the blind was left of the stake. Clear picture. We'll see when they have callbacks. 
Go Terry Foltz ( both dogs clean so far), Tom Hartl, Heather Pfluger, and a lot of others too many to mention.

Jeff


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> I’m speculating here, everyone from Series 1/2 were brought back except the dogs that were Picked-Up. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to take a gamble with a Handle, rather then a Pick-Up of your Dog? Lesson as a Handler, don’t let your dog get into trouble with a tough test, when a quick Handle will keep them in the game, it’s not a Derby. Thoughts?


As I pointed out in post 63 after watching a few handlers give their dog a chance to hunt and then ending up back in the flyer people started handling much quicker. As the test progressed it became apparent if the dogs exit the water on the gun side of the pond they have almost no chance to recover so people handle quickly. A good flyer, a handle, and a good blind will be called back. Dogs with more than one mistake are in jeopardy.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> Could have called me at 2:00 AM


Good luck Bubba but keep your foot on the gas!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Here’s a different question. . . . What’s the most # of dogs qualified by one amateur to a single NARC? Anyone qualified 4 dogs in a year? Maybe more?


I qualified 3 at least twice. It's nice, but stressful. No time to relax. Hard to get away and train.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> Here’s a thought…..maybe they just want to save on Birds! Is there a Bird shortage we don’t know about?


”They” have plenty 😉


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> I’m speculating here, everyone from Series 1/2 were brought back except the dogs that were Picked-Up. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to take a gamble with a Handle, rather then a Pick-Up of your Dog? Lesson as a Handler, don’t let your dog get into trouble with a tough test, when a quick Handle will keep them in the game, it’s not a Derby. Thoughts?


As Ed said, the handlers have more data for their decision making. It is obvious that a handle in the 3rd will play - unless you have a handle or some other big mistake in your history. And now, you have watched enough dogs to know what the point of no return is. And so, unless you have to hope to get the bird because of your past, the smart handle will handle quickly. Quick crisp handles will play. Big hunts and ugly handles may not


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Here’s a different question. . . . What’s the most # of dogs qualified by one amateur to a single NARC? Anyone qualified 4 dogs in a year? Maybe more?


These days there aren’t many running three competitive dogs except couples who have multiple competitive dogs. I think Alvin Hart her has qualified 3 and Ken Niel may have qualified four maybe more than once. Lauren is running three she qualified and Sylvia is running three but I qualified one of those. Suzan Caire qualified two and her just turned three year old was 1.5 points short of qualifying.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Yeah - everyone is handling so far. what a shocker. LOL


I know it's not many but there are several dogs who sound like they are doing a nice job on it. They are few and far between though.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

😖
My reactions to this are all over the place.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> 😖
> My reactions to this are all over the place.


You forgot one 🤮
😉


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Series #3 started with 92 dogs
57 handles
8 pickups


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I guess it's good they can choose to carry dogs with handles. Otherwise this could be a 5-6 series National. LOL


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I guess it's good they can choose to carry dogs with handles. Otherwise this could be a 5-6 series National. LOL


Lots of handles will be back but those dogs are one bad bird away from elimination. They could make a big cut here but they’ve pretty much got control of things so they don’t need to make a big cut yet. They had 8 pickups and at least two dogs who were not invited to run the blind and we don’t know how many failures there may have been on the blind. I recall one dog that did not enter the water before the point. Also we do not know much about the handles, all of them are not created equally. I would guess they will callback around 60 dogs for the fifth series land marks but would not be surprised if it was 10-15 less than that.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Glad I am not a gambler, 80 dogs back. Apparently so many similar jobs they felt they had to all go or all stay, contestants are happy for the latter. Land quad 10 starts..🤞


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Robby and Lefty are doing great so far !


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

I went through the 2021 NARC Callback list. They had the big cut in Series 3 from 132 Dogs to 80 in Series 4. Only a few Dogs with a Handle were brought back. They actually note in this Chart/Spreadsheet if dogs have Double Handles by HH. What the heck are they going to do here? They are on the last dog, is anyone else pacing over this? It’s so Hot here in Minnesota we aren’t training. So glad I bought that Dog Treadmill!


EdA said:


> Glad I am not a gambler, 80 dogs back. Apparently so many similar jobs they felt they had to all go or all stay, contestants are happy for the latter. Land quad 10 starts..🤞


help me out, what did #87 do that she didn’t get called back? She was invited to run the Blind. All other Handles invited back, so what was the difference here??


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> I went through the 2021 NARC Callback list. They had the big cut in Series 3 from 132 Dogs to 80 in Series 4. Only a few Dogs with a Handle were brought back. They actually note in this Chart/Spreadsheet if dogs have Double Handles by HH. What the heck are they going to do here? They are on the last dog, is anyone else pacing over this? It’s so Hot here in Minnesota we aren’t training. So glad I bought that Dog Treadmill!
> 
> help me out, what did #87 do that she didn’t get called back? She was invited to run the Blind. All other Handles invited back, so what was the difference here??


I can only assume from the description that she handled on the flyer (last bird down) and had a significant out of the area hunt on the memory bird.
The difference 2021, 132 back going to 3 & 4. 2022, 92 back for 3 & 4. Much more leeway because of numbers in 2022.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Two questions;

1. Is it just me or is the 5th series the wettest land quad ever?

2. Will back to back blood bath tests become a new tradition?


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

So…..can I bring back “Mean” yet? Too soon?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

drunkenpoacher said:


> 2. Will back to back blood bath tests become a new tradition?


Question for you:
Would you rather wonder why you were not called back rather than 
wondering why you were?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> Question for you:
> Would you rather wonder why you were not called back rather than
> wondering why you were?


My philosophy and perhaps over used statement to judges as an official and to my co judges “I want people to wonder why they are back not wonder why they were dropped”


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Marvin S said:


> Question for you:
> Would you rather wonder why you were not called back rather than
> wondering why you were?


The latter.
I would also much rather fail a tough but fair test than be penciled out of a weak one.


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

drunkenpoacher said:


> The latter.
> I would also much rather fail a tough but fair test than be penciled out of a weak one.


The difference being: It's hard to evaluate a weak test for things you need to do in the
training process but a difficult test creates opportunities for growth. Tests can be broken
down into what you need to do in the process & proven to be instrumental in growth.


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Glad I am not a gambler, 80 dogs back. Apparently so many similar jobs they felt they had to all go or all stay, contestants are happy for the latter. Land quad 10 starts..🤞


I'm sure you've been in that situation a few times. 
Is it just my perception? This test looks tighter than 
3 coats of paint?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> So…..can I bring back “Mean” yet? Too soon?


I am told that - because heavy rainfall - the cover on the grounds is very high and cannot be moved, leaving the judges with little option as to where they can run. Maybe that explains how tight the tests are?


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

EdA said:


> View attachment 89791
> 
> compare to the other photo, you can see the relation of depressed area to the backside of the dead bird station.


The field is flat as a pancake. Zero depression or contour


----------



## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Tobias said:


> That's an amazing photo... sure does make things more 'clear' - from the keyboard anyway. Thanks Dr Ed


Nope absolutely the opposite of what you think you see


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Nope absolutely the opposite of what you think you see


does this look accurate from GE?

Also --- the field is fairly flat - actually rising slightly from the flyer station going toward the back of the snake pond. About 2-3 feet in eleveation, according to GE anyway. Terrain being what it is and how it affects dogs, that might have been one more factor pulling the dogs back that direction.

Also - the ponds in this imagery look like they might be slightly low... and they look to be very full now (thus there is probably more water than what the image shows)
Aa


----------



## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Tobias said:


> does this look accurate from GE?
> 
> Also --- the field is fairly flat - actually rising slightly from the flyer station going toward the back of the snake pond. About 2-3 feet in eleveation, according to GE anyway. Terrain being what it is and how it affects dogs, that might have been one more factor pulling the dogs back that direction.
> 
> Also - the ponds in this imagery look like they might be slightly low... and they look to be very full now (thus there is probably more water


There is no terrain. The field is flat. The pond image is old. The speculation is inaccurate 100%


----------



## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

On the 5th series quad, the left retired bird at 200 yards thrown to the island, do the gunners retire back to the wooden duck blind that looks to be in the picture?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

This is when I miss Pat Burns and his analysis/interviews/coverage of the Nationals. Not to quash the speculation just to hear the experience, the mental process of dissecting the test and how to attack it as a handler.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This is the same location in 2014 pumped full for the 8th or 9th series. This is adjacent to the river, the soil is porous, and they have to pump it. It is a spectacular piece of water when full, very natural looking.
T.J. Lindbloom‘s property (NFC McGuffy)


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Here is a cool pic Mark Atwater posted on FB on the 3rd/4th location. Looking back at the line.


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Guess it's safe to assume that they lost the ability to post on the blog after 59 ran.


----------



## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> Guess it's safe to assume that they lost the ability to post on the blog after 59 ran.


If I'm not mistaken, they said they would be slow on posting due to signal in the area today.

It seems as they are moving to a better area every once in a while to get a few post in.

it is up to dog 63 now..


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

saltgrass said:


> If I'm not mistaken, they said they would be slow on posting due to signal in the area today.
> 
> It seems as they are moving to a better area every once in a while to get a few post in.
> 
> it is up to dog 63 now..


The area is remote, my guess as yours they download a few dogs then drive to a place with a useable connection


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> Guess it's safe to assume that they lost the ability to post on the blog after 59 ran.


If your primary interest is Bickley #64 he handled


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Of some interest to those who had friends working or running dogs near the end of the day someone slid a trailer off the road on a turn blocking the road and my friends did not get back to the hotel until 11:30. Not great with for those with a 5:30 AM departure this morning.


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Thank you Dr Ed , Robby n Lefty seem to be having a real good season this year.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

EdA said:


> Looks like our resident competitor Bubba just had the first good job of the day..


Oakley good again, keep it up Bubba!


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Oakley arrived at the NARC with very good momentum following a great spring season. Hope that continues! Best of luck to the team. -Paul


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Peter Balzer said:


> This is when I miss Pat Burns and his analysis/interviews/coverage of the Nationals. Not to quash the speculation just to hear the experience, the mental process of dissecting the test and how to attack it as a handler.


I was having this discussion with my hubby yesterday about Pat Burns & his Drone. Why doesn’t he use that Drone at the Nationals anymore? Any idea?


----------



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

MarniSampair said:


> I was having this discussion with my hubby yesterday about Pat Burns & his Drone. Why doesn’t he use that Drone at the Nationals anymore? Any idea?


Cause he's not there covering it.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

MarniSampair said:


> I was having this discussion with my hubby yesterday about Pat Burns & his Drone. Why doesn’t he use that Drone at the Nationals anymore? Any idea?


I think because the powers that be decided it was unfair to early running handlers/dogs if there was a video that 'could potentially be available' to later running handlers/dogs. I think it would have been awesome to have videos taken and put on youtube after the national was complete.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Peter Balzer said:


> Cause he's not there covering it.


Thanks! So….what about last year? I didn’t see any Drone footage from last year??


----------



## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

MarniSampair said:


> Thanks! So….what about last year? I didn’t see any Drone footage from last year??


I don’t think the drone footage was appreciated by the traditionalists


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Judd said:


> I don’t think the drone footage was appreciated by the traditionalists


It was great for this “traditionalist“ and many others too. There was always a crowd at Pat’s tent watching the drone video of the test dogs. The issue was not that but money, he wasn’t going to do it on his nickel and the people who are in charge of such things didn’t want to ante up for his expenses.


----------



## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

I know it would likely be prohibitively costly, but it would be great if they could erect a green-covered camera tower like they have at golf games. I'd pay a fee to stream it.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

PalouseDogs said:


> I'd pay a fee to stream it.


Would you also share your password with me?


----------



## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

EdA said:


> It was great for this “traditionalist“ and many others too. There was always a crowd at Pat’s tent watching the drone video of the test dogs. The issue was not that but money, he wasn’t going to do it on his nickel and the people who are in charge of such things didn’t want to ante up for his expenses.


Makes sense.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Drone coverage at the national


I sure wish Pat was doing the coverage at the national with his drone and interviews of handlers! Apparently the powers that be thought the later handlers were getting too much of an advantage from watching the drone footage, kinda like the HOF committee! There is so much luck involved in...




www.retrievertraining.net





So they did finally decide drone coverage was ok? Now they just dont have the pilot/drone?


----------



## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

I thought Rich Pingatore (sp) had drone coverage going but only for certain things.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Reginald said:


> I thought Rich Pingatore (sp) had drone coverage going but only for certain things.


I do recall some aerial views at previous nationals. Just still shots?


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Glad I am not a gambler, 80 dogs back.


Care to make a prediction for the 6th?


----------



## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

As it stands now they will lose at least 32 dogs after the 5th.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> Care to make a prediction for the 6th?


10 PU
7 HH
16 H who had a previous H
7 H for the first time
that gets them to 47 or fewer without dropping anyone, they won’t want to spend too much time sorting through the rest for callbacks so I would guess 45


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

How about this for an interesting twist, 87 was not on the callback list but apparently should have been, the owner who was in Portland was called to come back, 1 hour away….😳


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> How about this for an interesting twist, 87 was not on the callback list but apparently should have been, the owner who was in Portland was called to come back, 1 hour away….😳


holy heck. That's at least 3-4 hours drive from pdx - roseburg. Depending on what side pdx they are coming from and traffic.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

EdA said:


> How about this for an interesting twist, 87 was not on the callback list but apparently should have been, the owner who was in Portland was called to come back, 1 hour away….😳


That's wild. Would be difficult to get back in the game mentally and show up to stick this test. More evidence that we're humans


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> That's wild. Would be difficult to get back in the game mentally and show up to stick this test. More evidence that we're humans


You wonder why someone didn’t notice yesterday


----------



## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

EdA said:


> How about this for an interesting twist, 87 was not on the callback list but apparently should have been, the owner who was in Portland was called to come back, 1 hour away….😳


That actually happened to me at a weekend trial. I was just pulling into my garage two hours away when they called me to come back to run the Blind. I was somewhat surprised I didn't receive a callback at the time. There was no way I was driving back to the trial though.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> That's wild. Would be difficult to get back in the game mentally and show up to stick this test. More evidence that we're humans


Well she made it back and did the test, good for her


----------



## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

By my count, per the blog, only 11 dogs without a handle after 8 total mark's in the Five series run so far.

That % of "clean" dogs has to be a record or close to it, I would guess


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

EdA said:


> Well she made it back and did the test, good for her


Absolutely! Congrats to 87! Hope she gets called back 😂🤣

I think 40 back to 6th


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

From the Blog
0 – No-Birds / Re-Runs
24 – Handles
9 – Double Handles
12 – Pick-Ups
by my count 16 of those handles had a previous handle which gets them to 43 without dropping anyone other than the dogs with 2 or more handles


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

EdA said:


> From the Blog
> 0 – No-Birds / Re-Runs
> 24 – Handles
> 9 – Double Handles
> ...


i was thinking 44.. but i prob missed on going down the list..


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

EdA said:


> From the Blog
> 0 – No-Birds / Re-Runs


Dog 21 had both a no bird and a rerun ( when he had interference by flushing a wild bird in his first run) and there were numerous other no birds


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Dog 21 had both a no bird and a rerun ( when he had interference by flushing a wild bird in his first run) and there were numerous other no birds


That was from the Blog
6 dogs with multiple handles are back


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> That was from the Blog
> 6 dogs with multiple handles are back


If correct, I am appalled.


----------



## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Hard to tell why # 7 was dropped from the description of her 5th series.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> If correct, I am appalled.


It’s correct


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Will dog 33 have to run the new blind since they scrapped the one he ran?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

labsforme said:


> Hard to tell why # 7 was dropped from the description of her 5th series.


I was told the dog popped twice on a mark


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Will dog 33 have to run the new blind since they scrapped the one he ran?


He will but might run last


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> I was told the dog popped twice on a mark


So, you pop twice on a mark (no handle) and are dropped, but handle twice and are carried. Madness


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

EdA said:


> I was told the dog popped twice on a mark


That explains why.
Thanks


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

I wonder what would have happened if 87 lived further away , would the test be held back or entry fee refunded.?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> If correct, I am appalled.


8, 28, 51, 62, 90, 91


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Duplicate


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> I wonder what would have happened if 87 lived further away , would the test be held back or entry fee refunded.?


That would have been a FTC decision but holding up the National would not be an option. They apparently were going to wait for her today.


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

I'm glad she got to run and most importantly she passed.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

In that 5th series, did the dogs who ran the SF last do better? Or did I read too the blog too quickly?


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Ted Shih said:


> So, you pop twice on a mark (no handle) and are dropped, but handle twice and are carried. Madness


Must have been lots of chirping birds in the area. The dog was all messed up and confused.


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## Wbarstow (Mar 25, 2017)

EdA said:


> He will but might run last


Since the test was carried over to the next day I believe he would start first but had they restarted the 6th wouldn’t they run last ( to rest I assume )


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wbarstow said:


> Since the test was carried over to the next day I believe he would start first but had they restarted the 6th wouldn’t they run last ( to rest I assume )


Either way would be acceptable, if it was my decision he would run first in the morning.


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## pappy (Nov 23, 2009)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> I'm glad she got to run and most importantly she passed.



This isn’t a Hunt Test. There is no PASS/FAIL

Reminds me of the latest USNAVY Video. 
How to correctly Identify Individual Sexual Identity and Subconsciously apply Pronouns. God forbid if you apply them incorrectly.

Just what would have happened if the contestant was well beyond when the 5th was over (6 hours) let’s say. She or He (remembering pronoun usage) would have enjoyed a Reset of the entire test due to omission of call backs by all three judges?

Never judged a National but (Who/What/When/Where and or Why did the Rule Change regarding Two Mistakes and your history? In the Wokeworld we exist in maybe I should be more Understanding and come to the realization that multiple Quick/Calculated/Oh So Efficient Handles are so less taxing than a Gorrillia Hunt or a Pop or a dog that refuses to enter the water on a Water Blind or follow instructions that plainly indicate you must be “Left of the Stake “.

Sad is all I can say.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

EdA said:


> How about this for an interesting twist, 87 was not on the callback list but apparently should have been, the owner who was in Portland was called to come back, 1 hour away….😳


I thought that #87 was a mistake because she had a Handle like everyone else but wasn’t called back. I imagine it was asked as to why she wasn’t called back. When the Judges had time to review it. Glad they did, because she’s called back to the 6th!!


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

pappy said:


> This isn’t a Hunt Test. There is no PASS/FAIL
> 
> Reminds me of the latest USNAVY Video.
> How to correctly Identify Individual Sexual Identity and Subconsciously apply Pronouns. God forbid if you apply them incorrectly.
> ...


1) Don’t put this one on the judges. We checked both our callback and out sheets. We went through our books discussing each dog, then one person wrote down the numbers and read them back as we went page to page. This is SOP for National judges. Someone other than the judges made a clerical error. I recall this happened once before to Charlie or Yvonne Hays, they were well down the road before they found out. Had she been too far away to get back chalk it up to just plain bad luck like the handler whose dog encountered wild ducks as a previous dog had but the decision was her dog responded differently than the other dog (who got a rerun) but she was not deserving of one.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> I thought that #87 was a mistake because she had a Handle like everyone else but wasn’t called back. I imagine it was asked as to why she wasn’t called back. When the Judges had time to review it. Glad they did, because she’s called back to the 6th!!


She was back on all three judges sheets, they did not have to review anything, someone other than the judges made a clerical error.


----------



## Wbarstow (Mar 25, 2017)

pappy said:


> This isn’t a Hunt Test. There is no PASS/FAIL
> 
> Reminds me of the latest USNAVY Video.
> How to correctly Identify Individual Sexual Identity and Subconsciously apply Pronouns. God forbid if you apply them incorrectly.
> ...


It has been an unusual national in so many ways 😎


----------



## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> I wonder what would have happened if 87 lived further away , would the test be held back or entry fee refunded.?


----------



## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Julie Kobach lives in Wisconsin, the dog is trained by Fox Hollow.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

EdA said:


> View attachment 89813
> 
> This is the same location in 2014 pumped full for the 8th or 9th series. This is adjacent to the river, the soil is porous, and they have to pump it. It is a spectacular piece of water when full, very natural looking.
> T.J. Lindbloom‘s property (NFC McGuffy)


River is high. Some running water. The grass in the basin had millions of trails. If dog used a trail it didn't usually end well


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

birddogn_tc said:


> Here is a cool pic Mark Atwater posted on FB on the 3rd/4th location. Looking back at the line.
> 
> View attachment 89816


Great image from the main road. Field is very flat.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Reginald said:


> Must have been lots of chirping birds in the area. The dog was all messed up and confused.


Many will attest there is an osprey nest in the trees. I was asked by a person with hearing aids if what he was hearing was a back up beeper alarm. It went on most the day. I'm sure most of the crowd didn't hear it. Lol


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I think coverage gets people interested and the drone footage was nice. Lots complain about no new blood coming into the sport, A lot of things like good coverage and the drone footage that could be put on FB get people interested but get squashed. They could easily do the interviews and drone footage for each series and not put it out until that series is over for those worried about an unfair advantage.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> He will but might run last


looks like he is running first. I guess being a new day, it really doesn't matter. 

When judges do this - scrap a test. Do they try to make the test very different from the one they scrapped? Or are they just trying to have a blind that is not going to interfere with their remaining series?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Tobias said:


> looks like he is running first. I guess being a new day, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> When judges do this - scrap a test. Do they try to make the test very different from the one they scrapped? Or are they just trying to have a blind that is not going to interfere with their remaining series?


Given the 6th is a land/water quad on a different property doesn't seem to matter now. All gas. . . no break. May be a combined 7th/8th land water double blind after this?


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

Tobias said:


> looks like he is running first. I guess being a new day, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> When judges do this - scrap a test. Do they try to make the test very different from the one they scrapped? Or are they just trying to have a blind that is not going to interfere with their remaining series?


Since it’s now a land/water quad I’d say very different


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> looks like he is running first. I guess being a new day, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> When judges do this - scrap a test. Do they try to make the test very different from the one they scrapped? Or are they just trying to have a blind that is not going to interfere with their remaining series?


The scrapped land blind was planned as the last test on a property they will not return to, doing so and then moving would cost a minimum of 2 hours. They would not start a day with a land blind on a new area, they will shoehorn the LB somewhere along the way, perhaps a double blind as Peter suggested. Time is the single biggest factor that drives a National. They will do well to finish a land/water quad today, if it’s an 8 or 9 minute test they will finish in time to run a blind this afternoon.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Peter Balzer said:


> Given the 6th is a land/water quad on a different property doesn't seem to matter now. All gas. . . no break. May be a combined 7th/8th land water double blind after this?


Given that the 6th is when it traditionally starts to "get real", maybe they won't need or want any more answers from 7-8-9 & 10.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Given that the 6th is when it traditionally starts to "get real", maybe they won't need or want any more answers from 7-8-9 & 10.


I certainly would not anticipate a challenging blind, they will probably just fulfill the requirements and not much more. They still have some very talented dogs to sort through with 3 sets of marks. I was shocked that they called back 7 dogs with 2 handles on 3 sets of marks. 😳🤔


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> I certainly would not anticipate a challenging blind, they will probably just fulfill the requirements and not much more. They still have some very talented dogs to sort through with 3 sets of marks. I was shocked that they called back 7 dogs with 2 handles on 3 sets of marks. 😳🤔


I thought there were "only" six. Whether six or seven, I remain appalled at this break with tradition.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I thought there were "only" six. Whether six or seven, I remain appalled at this break with tradition.


I was told there is a 7th that the Blog did not identify as a H
And if you think that’s weird how about only one porta potty yesterday 😳


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

I find it interesting that 11 dogs have not handled & it's only been mentioned once on this thread. 
I'll wait for the comments when one of those that possibly SHH is dropped after the 2nd handle.


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

EdA said:


> I was told there is a 7th that the Blog did not identify as a H
> *And if you think that’s weird how about only one porta potty yesterday* 😳


That's a shortcoming, I can say with great pride, that "we" never had in the one national I've been, at best, semi-peripherally, minutely, minisculely, involved with. Even had hot running water! Named one of my current dogs after the purveyor of such personal needs luxury!

MG


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

EdA said:


> And if you think that’s weird how about only one porta potty yesterday 😳


If it was at the farthest point in the field from the line it would have been the traditional placement for a weekend trial.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> And if you think that’s weird how about only one porta potty yesterday 😳


For very obvious reasons....my husband says in his next life, he's coming back as a guy. LOL!!


----------



## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)




----------



## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

Series 6.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Bryan Parks said:


> I think coverage gets people interested and the drone footage was nice. Lots complain about no new blood coming into the sport, A lot of things like good coverage and the drone footage that could be put on FB get people interested but get squashed. They could easily do the interviews and drone footage for each series and not put it out until that series is over for those worried about an unfair advantage.


As EdA mentioned, I think it's still an issue of who does it? If I am Pat Burns (or anyone for that matter), I am not going to go to Oregon to stay in a hotel for 10+ days and "work" the event without being compensated. Or at a bare minimum, fully reimbursed for my expenses. I also don't think it is appropriate to ask any contestants to handle any of those duties unless they were just willing to do it.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

birddogn_tc said:


> As EdA mentioned, I think it's still an issue of who does it? If I am Pat Burns (or anyone for that matter), I am not going to go to Oregon to stay in a hotel for 10+ days and "work" the event without being compensated. Or at a bare minimum, fully reimbursed for my expenses. I also don't think it is appropriate to ask any contestants to handle any of those duties unless they were just willing to do it.


Yeah, I am all in favor of paying travel expenses at minimum.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

As a professional photographer - Mark Atwater gets money by selling his photos. Seems to me that a drone operator could (should be) allowed to do the same. Put the videos on a private youtube or vimeo channel and require payment to access it. These would be videos only of the test dogs, of course. I'd pay $30-50 to access it.... I cant imagine there wouldn't be at least 200 people willing to do the same. That amounts to 6-10K. Plenty to cover expenses and probably way more.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> As a professional photographer - Mark Atwater gets money by selling his photos. Seems to me that a drone operator could (should be) allowed to do the same. Put the videos on a private youtube or vimeo channel and require payment to access it. These would be videos only of the test dogs, of course. I'd pay $30-50 to access it.... I cant imagine there wouldn't be at least 200 people willing to do the same. That amounts to 6-10K. Plenty to cover expenses and probably way more.


You'd pay $50 to see drone footage of a test dog?
Give me a call if you are interested in a great deal on some prime oceanfront property in Arizona


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

We all need to pitch in a pay this blogger a big Thank you.. this is my first time really following a national this close.. they are doing an amazing job!


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> As a professional photographer - Mark Atwater gets money by selling his photos. Seems to me that a drone operator could (should be) allowed to do the same. Put the videos on a private youtube or vimeo channel and require payment to access it. These would be videos only of the test dogs, of course. I'd pay $30-50 to access it.... I cant imagine there wouldn't be at least 200 people willing to do the same. That amounts to 6-10K. Plenty to cover expenses and probably way more.


Also if we are going to pony up $10,000 for the guy running the joysticks of the drone, how much do we then pay the Marshalls, gunners, throwers, blind planters, judges, set up crew, announcers, blog posters, photagraphers artist, judges, hospitality crew, etc etc.

Because without them there is nothing for the drone to film.
People think $400 entry fees are high, regards


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> Also if we are going to pony up $10,000 for the guy running the joysticks of the drone, how much do we then pay the Marshalls, gunners, throwers, blind planters, judges, set up crew, announcers, blog posters, photagraphers artist, judges, hospitality crew, etc etc.
> 
> Because without them there is nothing for the drone to film.
> People think $400 entry fees are high, regards


so Mark Atwater is working the event for free? Because if he is, why did I pay for one of the images he took at the national? inquiring minds and all.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> You'd pay $50 to see drone footage of a test dog?
> Give me a call if you are interested in a great deal on some prime oceanfront property in Arizona


for footage of the entire event. yes. Not for a single series, obviously. I cannot afford to fly there and stay for the week, maybe you can.


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> Also if we are going to pony up $10,000 for the guy running the joysticks of the drone, how much do we then pay the Marshalls, gunners, throwers, blind planters, judges, set up crew, announcers, blog posters, photagraphers artist, judges, hospitality crew, etc etc.
> 
> Because without them there is nothing for the drone to film.
> People think $400 entry fees are high, regards


I don't know how all that pans out. However, in HTs judges travel expenses are paid along with a nice gift. Bird boys are paid typically and in some cases given the opportunity to make money by selling lunches if they are from an organization.

Somehow the SRS manages some coverage but the biggest event of the year can't even get some commentary?

I don't really care either way but I hear all the time about how the sport is dying and all the competitors are aging.

I just think it would be worth while to explore some ideas on creating more coverage. The blog is amazing but only good for those who already have a lot of interest and/or know dogs running.


----------



## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> so Mark Atwater is working the event for free? Because if he is, why did I pay for one of the images he took at the national? inquiring minds and all.


Where did I say Mark Atwater is working for free? He is the hardest working man I know and an amazing shutterbug. I remember him being set up in the water at and SRS Crown I was running a decade or so ago. He got some amazing shots of my dog barreling through some swampy reedy water he was set up in. It was hot and humid and took all day to run. After the series was was over I went over and helped him get him and his stuff. packed out.. I commented on what an ordeal that was and his reply was something to the effect that his waders served a "dual purpose"
THAT IS DEDICATION !!


----------



## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tobias said:


> for footage of the entire event. yes. Not for a single series, obviously. I cannot afford to fly there and stay for the week, maybe you can.


Here is a quote from your post #220

" These would be videos only of the test dogs, of course."

Your words, not mine


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Why waste energy arguing about something that’s never going to happen. Remember AKC’s video coverage? How long did that last?


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

EdA said:


> Why waste energy arguing about something that’s never going to happen.


Because if we didn’t we would hardly ever talk?


----------



## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Bryan Parks said:


> I don't know how all that pans out. However, in HTs judges travel expenses are paid along with a nice gift. Bird boys are paid typically and in some cases given the opportunity to make money by selling lunches if they are from an organization.
> 
> Somehow the SRS manages some coverage but the biggest event of the year can't even get some commentary?
> 
> ...


You are comparing apples to oranges
This isn't a HT, It is the NARC
HT's and weekend FT's hire BB's, blind planters, the National AM & Open don''t.

The SRS/ESPN Great Outdoor games were basically started as made for TV events.
Shannon Nardi was the driving force behind the televised aspect. She diverted to filming Bass fishing events with her dad. I personally would love to see her or someone pick that ball up again
I won the largest one ever held, and somewhere have a copy of the VCR tape of that event.
I agree with you that they were good for and created great interest in dog games for a whole new {relatively} Huge demographic.


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

birddogn_tc said:


> As EdA mentioned, I think it's still an issue of who does it? If I am Pat Burns (or anyone for that matter), I am not going to go to Oregon to stay in a hotel for 10+ days and "work" the event without being compensated. Or at a bare minimum, fully reimbursed for my expenses. I also don't think it is appropriate to ask any contestants to handle any of those duties unless they were just willing to do it.


I find it interesting that the Editor of Retriever News lives in Scotland. (The Country)


----------



## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> You are comparing apples to oranges
> This isn't a HT, It is the NARC
> HT's and weekend FT's hire BB's, blind planters, the National AM & Open don''t.
> 
> ...


Thats exactly my point, a measly weekend HT can pay BBs but the National event can't compensate some travel expenses for someone to cover it or fly a drone?


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

The callbacks to the 7th will be very interesting. Strictly talking about “H” (handles) does a handle in series 6 get called back if 2nd H. Do those previously with 2 H’s get dropped? We’ll just have to wait and see.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> The callbacks to the 7th will be very interesting. Strictly talking about “H” (handles) does a handle in series 6 get called back if 2nd H. Do those previously with 2 H’s get dropped? We’ll just have to wait and see.


You just nailed the BIG question, having established that handling on 2 marks is acceptable what happens to the dogs here who had three good marks and their 2nd handle? Or how about the dogs here who have 2 bad birds plus their first handle?


----------



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Bubba and Oakley . . . Another nice series! Keep it up!!


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> Here is a quote from your post #220
> 
> " These would be videos only of the test dogs, of course."
> 
> Your words, not mine


I give up. It's not worth arguing about. Have a great day.


----------



## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Peter Balzer said:


> Bubba and Oakley . . . Another nice series! Keep it up!!


Beat me to it.. And after another no bird..


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

If PU's go on at the present rate there is not a lot of need to drop anyone who got all the birds.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> If PU's go on at the present rate there is not a lot of need to drop anyone who got all the birds.


They already have kinda, they’ve had the guns come out for more than one dog after getting 3 good and starting to handle never allowing the dog to get the fourth bird. So you’re going to call back dogs that have a 3rd handle but got all 4 birds? Very inconsistent


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> They already have kinda, they’ve had the guns come out for more than one dog after getting 3 good and starting to handle never allowing the dog to get the fourth bird. So you’re going to call back dogs that have a 3rd handle but got all 4 birds? Very inconsistent


I'm not sure I addressed a 3rd handle but that would be up to the judges.
I was addressing the fact that they have the numbers under control. They
are in the position that 2 handles & no further mistakes could be dropped
when those dogs are no longer considered to be in contention.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> I'm not sure I addressed a 3rd handle but that would be up to the judges.
> I was addressing the fact that they have the numbers under control. They
> are in the position that 2 handles & no further mistakes could be dropped
> when those dogs are no longer considered to be in contention.


Achieving numbers and achieving them in an equitable way should not be mutually exclusive.


----------



## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

drunkenpoacher said:


> If it was at the farthest point in the field from the line it would have been the traditional placement for a weekend trial.


Handler running to porta potty should be part of the competition--line, speed, team player?


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I’m rooting for Billie!!!


----------



## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Oakley, Hattie as YLF. Ptar and Shorty because I love their names and am rooting for their handlers. Plus all the other yellers, even the yeller males, beside Oakley and Hattie. *Twink, too.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

6 - No H
15 - 1 H
6 - 2 H


----------



## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

I was struggling trying to keep track of who/what/etc. So I made this.... Hopefully no errors in this (I make no promises)...but this is what I have by looking at the blog titles (so if a dog has a "handle" in there somewhere that is not identified on the title of their run..I would have missed it, I did not read every single run)....


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Marvin S said:


> 6 - No H
> 15 - 1 H
> 6 - 2 H


This says a lot after 6! I have resisted commenting-although the comments have been entertaining!
I have always said the easiest tests to set are those everybody can do and those almost nobody can do. It is a challenge to find the right level of test for the field. I recently ran all-age stakes with lesser competition than this National by far, when 1 of 11 did with out H or PU and another when nobody did without H, HH or PU! Is this the new trend?
After 50 years judging all-age stakes, author and co-author of multi-articles on judging principles on Retriever News, Retrievers Online and Workshops both sides of the border, I get frustrated! I surely hope we are not seeing a new trend!
Rather, I hope we will see an effort by judges to become experienced enough to predict better outcomes, pursue the principles of fair and reasonably equitable although challenging set-ups, and avoid tests that are extreme; but produce variability of results! I personally think this takes being a student, a lot of experience; both of which are aided by setting up, observing and remembering your own set-ups. There are some that learn from observation and from mentoring!
I know these judges and was surprised at certain concepts (dogs obviously were!) but I suspect cover and other constraints have been a factor in their tests! But as I said above I hope this is not a new trend!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Dennis. Good to see you voice your opinion. Over the past three years, I have noticed a disturbing trend towards exceedingly difficult tests - and/or exceptionally high standards - in small Amateur stakes (less than 40 dogs). For example, the judges start with 30 dogs and return with 13 to the second series land blind. It is very discouraging to me and I am battle hardened. I cannot imagine what it is like for a beginner. I don't know if the National begets the weekend, or the weekend begets the National.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> Dennis. Good to see you voice your opinion. Over the past three years, I have noticed a disturbing trend towards exceedingly difficult tests - and/or exceptionally high standards - in small Amateur stakes (less than 40 dogs). For example, the judges start with 30 dogs and return with 13 to the second series land blind. It is very discouraging to me and I am battle hardened. I cannot imagine what it is like for a beginner. I don't know if the National begets the weekend, or the weekend begets the National.


I guess we’ll see after this national concludes


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Dennis. Good to see you voice your opinion. Over the past three years, I have noticed a disturbing trend towards exceedingly difficult tests - and/or exceptionally high standards - in small Amateur stakes (less than 40 dogs). For example, the judges start with 30 dogs and return with 13 to the second series land blind. It is very discouraging to me and I am battle hardened. I cannot imagine what it is like for a beginner. I don't know if the National begets the weekend, or the weekend begets the National.


Ted!
As you so well know, you and I together have made a major effort to discuss widely principles and concepts of sound judging which included the "Judges Fundamentals and Checklist!" (Retriever Field Trial Judging Fundamentals and Checklist.). Re Nationals, you have previously made pleas for maintaining some of the time-honored and proven practices and traditions. I agree with an understanding that these are not inviolate or written in stone! I am carefully watching this end result. Conceivably some dog will have a great week and all else will be forgiven? Will this affect future Nationals?
Regards


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Ted!
> As you so well know, you and I together have made a major effort to discuss widely principles and concepts of sound judging which included the "Judges Fundamentals and Checklist!" (Retriever Field Trial Judging Fundamentals and Checklist.). Re Nationals, you have previously made pleas for maintaining some of the time-honored and proven practices and traditions. I agree with an understanding that these are not inviolate or written in stone! I am carefully watching this end result. Conceivably some dog will have a great week and all else will be forgiven? Will this affect future Nationals?
> Regards


To me, the two handles and you are out was inviolate. It gave predictability to the process. Now, who knows? I doubt we will ever return to that standard. As for the difficulty of the tests, that has been steadily increasing for the past four years. I doubt that trend will abate. Yes, some deserving dog will win. But, does that excuse the process that led to that dog's win? Count me heavily discouraged.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

When Ted, Ed, and Dennis are posting, I think everyone stops to read and listen. But tradition? Heck, here is the King Buck at a national video.

Evolution just is, whether we want it to be or not. 





A timed retrieve in a national competition would be interesting.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

It's not the same. The dogs are better. The tests are harder. That's evolution. But, we are now seeing tests that annihilate the dogs. It's unnecessary. Anyone can make good dogs look bad. The question is why? What are the consequences of annihilating the field year after year? Pretty soon, people decide to do something else with their spare time. If you think that is a good idea, well lucky you.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Ted Shih said:


> It's not the same. The dogs are better. The tests are harder. That's evolution. But, we are now seeing tests that annihilate the dogs. It's unnecessary. Anyone can make good dogs look bad. The question is why? What are the consequences of annihilating the field year after year? Pretty soon, people decide to do something else with their spare time. If you think that is a good idea, well lucky you.


Okay--so I hoped to engage you.  Is it that the marks are too tight? Is the cover too heavy? I actually have a friend there (not running a dog but an AFC owner) and she says the grounds are "unexpectedly difficult." Is it the tests, the grounds, or a combination?


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Glad to see Dennis post ! I had a stack of 
“Onlines” in my hand yesterday. 
The only 10 people happy are the end of the National are the Winner, the judges and the committee( cause it’s over) 
I appreciate all that gather in eager anticipation of the beginning, I appreciate the small army of workers who come on thier own nickel and labor to put the event on; I appreciate the judges whom no matter what they do will not please all yet they show up tomorrow and as crazy as it seems. I appreciate the tradition that brings me some satisfaction that the world is not completely mad. After all it’s dogs picking up birds and it’s not much more complicated than that. 
Just me and I m drinking and musing 
Dk


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

J. Marti said:


> When Ted, Ed, and Dennis are posting, I think everyone stops to read and listen. But tradition? Heck, here is the King Buck at a national video.
> 
> Evolution just is, whether we want it to be or not.
> 
> ...


As some of you know, I am a retired wildife research scientist so obviously I support evolution occurs. Our FT game has evolved immensely in dog quality, handling, training and overall judging! There is no comparison with the Nationals of decades ago! Some of my two olds could have finished them! That is not the point!
It is extremely challenging to address 100 of todays top dogs and separate them fairly to find the best Finalists! It is hard to avoid 1-2 set-ups that are undesirable and split tests because of numbers that are a curse for judges or competitors.
Timed retrieves are a non-starter! I started to list the reasons and gave up after 6th when it could have been 10!


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Okay. So what should a judge do?

You have 100 dogs who are obviously talented enough to qualify for the National Amateur championship. What if you set up a FIRST test in which 2/3 of the dogs handle and 1/3 do not? So 33 of the dogs could do the test without a handle and 66 could not. Is that a fault of your test or the dogs? One third of the dogs didn't need to be handled--so obviously the test could be done without a handle. What does that mean?

Are you saying each dog should be carried for a minimum of like 2-3 series, except for obvious reasons like not finding a bird on a mark, failing to go, etc.?

I'm just asking. I will never have a dog at this level.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Ted Shih said:


> It's not the same. The dogs are better. The tests are harder. That's evolution. But, we are now seeing tests that annihilate the dogs. It's unnecessary. Anyone can make good dogs look bad. The question is why? What are the consequences of annihilating the field year after year? Pretty soon, people decide to do something else with their spare time. If you think that is a good idea, well lucky you.


It drives me to train better and harder. Drives my wife who is running our dog to be better. I'm listening to the Pros here watching the tests and I was surprised to hear commentary about how they liked watching the dog work on the tests and that they were more interesting than past years test in other regions. It's contrary to a lot of dialog. But, dialog isn't here, people are and the audience is 100% captivated. Good or bad.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Marvin S said:


> Marvin


Your not so little whippersnapper has a good arm and he plants a mean blind lol 😆


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Your not so little whippersnapper has a good arm and he plants a mean blind lol 😆


He has a lot of experience helping out.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Dennis. Good to see you voice your opinion. Over the past three years, I have noticed a disturbing trend towards exceedingly difficult tests - and/or exceptionally high standards - in small Amateur stakes (less than 40 dogs). For example, the judges start with 30 dogs and return with 13 to the second series land blind. It is very discouraging to me and I am battle hardened. I cannot imagine what it is like for a beginner. I don't know if the National begets the weekend, or the weekend begets the National.





I agree. I have seen tests where it's not a matter of who did the best job but who can do it period. I see no reason to drop 2/3 of the field in a 40 dog trial on the first series but I have seen it happen and not always because the test was extremely difficult. I have also been dropped when my dog did the test but not good enough. A lot can happen in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th series.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

J. Marti said:


> Are you saying each dog should be carried for a minimum of like 2-3 series, except for obvious reasons like not finding a bird on a mark, failing to go, etc.?


I believe dogs/teams are guaranteed two series in SRS competitions.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree with Dennis, the challenge is finding the middle ground, that is tests that some will do ok and some will not do. If those tests are planned for 6 marking series the cream will come to the top and you won't have abject failure rates. The only thing I think the national needs is later in the week one good land blind and one good water blind. The blinds lately have been qualifying level at best. I realize time management is crucial. If time is crucial then why quit in the middle of the afternoon?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Dave Kress said:


> The only 10 people happy are the end of the National are the Winner, the judges and the committee( cause it’s over)


I absolutely disagree with that. I never won one, have been close a couple of times, disappointed numerous times, but rarely unhappy with the outcome just because I didn’t win and I know others who feel the same.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> I absolutely disagree with that. I never won one, have been close a couple of times, disappointed numerous times, but rarely unhappy with the outcome just because I didn’t win and I know others who feel the same.


I concur. I vehemently disagree with the oft made statement that at the end of a Field Trial only a winner is pleased. I still remember my first Open JAM 20 years ago. And I was delighted when I got a 4th in the Qualifying with a young dog. I enjoy a test that I find challenging and interesting (regardless of how I do). I enjoy it when I can see my dog making progress and the light bulb clicking on. And I enjoy it when the dog and I are working in tandem.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Dr Ed ( 265) and Ted ( 266). - u guys are exactly right and I m wrong ! Poor logic and choice of words on my part. 
I ve been to many an event where I was happy with my teams work yet and we didn’t finish or whatever. I heard many say I was pleased with the effort and so on. I stand corrected and thank you for pointing it out. 
Dk


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

A national is consistently made up of 10 tests, 6 marking set ups and 4 blinds. To most who you speak to you will be told essentially the same thing, blinds don't carry much weight at a national or something that mirrors that comment. Ponder that for a moment, 4 tests that don't really carry much weight, at your premier event. *40% of your premier event*, to some degree is considered meaningless.

They had 27 dogs to their LB that took all of 60 minutes give or take a few minutes. Start at 4:44 finish at 5:45 and they couldn't come up with something better than that? I don't care if it is a blind or not, at this point in the trial (Series 7) there are so many people bleeding and you don't lose ONE dog?

For the betterment of your premier event, add a day, start on Friday. Every contestant that is entered is there. What possibly could one come up with as an excuse not to do something so easy in order to make it more meaningful?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Dave Kress said:


> Dr Ed ( 265) and Ted ( 266). - u guys are exactly right and I m wrong ! Poor logic and choice of words on my part.
> I ve been to many an event where I was happy with my teams work yet and we didn’t finish or whatever. I heard many say I was pleased with the effort and so on. I stand corrected and thank you for pointing it out.
> Dk


This. I have heard "if you don't like disappointment , this isn't the game for you". I try to look at the progress and positives. It does feel good however when you beat or keep up with the best handlers and dogs.

Paul, say hi to Chris and everyone.

Jeff
Hoping to qualify for Ronan!!!!!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Reginald said:


> A national is consistently made up of 10 tests, 6 marking set ups and 4 blinds. To most who you speak to you will be told essentially the same thing, blinds don't carry much weight at a national or something that mirrors that comment. Ponder that for a moment, 4 tests that don't really carry much weight, at your premier event. *40% of your premier event*, to some degree is considered meaningless.
> 
> They had 27 dogs to their LB that took all of 60 minutes give or take a few minutes. Start at 4:44 finish at 5:45 and they couldn't come up with something better than that? I don't care if it is a blind or not, at this point in the trial (Series 7) there are so many people bleeding and you don't lose ONE dog?
> 
> For the betterment of your premier event, add a day, start on Friday. Every contestant that is entered is there. What possibly could one come up with as an excuse not to do something so easy in order to make it more meaningful?


HRC Pass/No Pass? LOL LOL!!!


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Does anyone know about the 8th? Are they doing a water blind?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> Does anyone know about the 8th? Are they doing a water blind?


It certainly should be but that’s just speculation on my part


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Well it's an hour and 50 minutes since the eighth should have started but nothing on the blog. :-(


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

The 8th is a water quad including 2 hen pheasants, one retired in deep cover! This looks like a killer to my inexperienced eyes.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Water Quad - all hens. Are hens a game bird where you live?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> Water Quad - all hens. Are hens a game bird where you live?


They are on game bird farms.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Test dog at 8:32am then after test dog ran stop to groom grounds? Time management is the most important thing at a national? Scrap a test in middle of afternoon because someone couldn't figure out where the sun sets? I see lots of issues here. The eighth looks like another killer.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Apparently they are only doing doubles and quads


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> Water Quad - all hens. Are hens a game bird where you live?


Pheasants are game birds regardless of gender, that the wild hens are not hunted is a game management decision not a loss of status


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Tobias said:


> They are on game bird farms.


Do you need a license to hunt a game bird farm? 
I wouldn't know, I've never hunted on one. Nothing 
beats the real thing!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> Do you need a license to hunt a game bird farm?
> I wouldn't know, I've never hunted on one. Nothing
> beats the real thing!


yes - you do need a license in most states, that I am aware of anyway. I am sure nothing beats the real thing, I don't live in an area with wild pheasants (or other wild gamebirds), so I make do with raised ones. The dogs don't care.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I am confused by the blog - the drawing of the marks indicate hen mallards and hen pheasants. The write ups says drake mallard for one of the flyers.
At any rate, it looks like a killer series.


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> Do you need a license to hunt a game bird farm?
> I wouldn't know, I've never hunted on one. Nothing
> beats the real thing!


in some states , in AL on a game preserve shooting pin mallards you have to have the state duck stamp

Series 8 Could be another nasty cut. They way its starting


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Marvin S said:


> Water Quad - all hens. Are hens a game bird


Wrong on both counts


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Marvin S said:


> I find it interesting that the Editor of Retriever News lives in Scotland. (The Country)


Do you blame her for moving out of the United States?


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Well? What is the scuttlebutt at the National today?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

MarniSampair said:


> Do you blame her for moving out of the United States?


nope!
I thought Tina was in Montana ?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

MarniSampair said:


> Do you blame her for moving out of the United States?


Well the US does have by far the largest immigration of any country in the world. 50 million people who have chosen this country to call home were not born here. I think we must be doing something right.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Edited. . . . Cause I was wrong


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Well sad news Bubba handled in the 8th.
So by my count only Alvin Hatcher and Dozer and Rick Wilke and Izzy are the only two dogs left without a handle 
WOW just wow


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Was really rooting for Bubba amd Oakley. But hell that's still just awesome...


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Bryan Parks said:


> Well the US does have by far the largest immigration of any country in the world. 50 million people who have chosen this country to call home were not born here. I think we must be doing something right.


If all the people I have met or conversed with around the world that said they were Irish went home ,there would be no room to plant a tattie.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

On the blog, the trial is temporarily suspended because they don't have any birds, wow, just wow.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Ok….I said it before Tweet-Tweet


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Well sad news Bubba handled in the 8th.
> So by my count only Alvin Hatcher and Dozer and Rick Wilke and Izzy are the only two dogs left without a handle
> WOW just wow


It’s not over yet!


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Bryan Parks said:


> Well the US does have by far the largest immigration of any country in the world. 50 million people who have chosen this country to call home were not born here. I think we must be doing something right.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

captain2560 said:


> On the blog, the trial is temporarily suspended because they don't have any birds, wow, just wow.


😳 yikes!


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

captain2560 said:


> On the blog, the trial is temporarily suspended because they don't have any birds, wow, just wow.


W.T.F!!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> It’s not over yet!


So true! Still rooting for them, of course!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Would the reason for a shortage of birds be due to more no-birds than anticipated? 

And --- 
Thanks Bird Flu!


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Surely it just means they didn’t grab a crate from somewhere. Not really OUT of birds. Right? Where is Paul to set us all straight?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

birddogn_tc said:


> Surely it just means they didn’t grab a crate from somewhere. Not really OUT of birds. Right? Where is Paul to set us all straight?


tracking down the birds? LOL!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Would the reason for a shortage of birds be due to more no-birds than anticipated?
> 
> And ---
> Thanks Bird Flu!


It would be because someone did not plan for that eventuality, having an extra crate of birds just in case costs nothing


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

EdA said:


> It’s not over yet!


Just a quick update because we are waiting more flyers. She had three very good marks and a very quick handle close to the bird. It was definitely a strategic move to stay alive. I couldn’t be happier with her effort the whole week. This little girl would lay down her life for me and has brought tears to my eyes more than once.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> Just a quick update because we are waiting more flyers. She had three very good marks and a very quick handle close to the bird. It was definitely a strategic move to stay alive. I couldn’t be happier with her effort the whole week. This little girl would lay down her life for me and has brought tears to my eyes more than once.


Keep your foot on the gas! The Little Duke of Fargo won in 1989 when he was the only dog to do the tenth. Congratulations on a great run whatever else happens.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Dave Kress said:


> Glad to see Dennis post ! I had a stack of
> “Onlines” in my hand yesterday.
> The only 10 people happy are the end of the National are the Winner, the judges and the committee( cause it’s over)


Upon further review with regards to this National you may be right😉


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

EdA said:


> Upon further review with regards to this National you may be right😉


Especially with the last 5 dogs picking up!


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

To me, Bubba and Oakley and littermate Coolhand Luke seem to be among the leaders. And Twink.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Prior to callbacks...this is what I have... (not official..subject to errors)....


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

Alvin’s dog is pretty dang clean too per the blog


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Not being there and seeing every series, having no handles may not necessarily mean "clean". If they keep up their precedent of carrying dogs with two handles I anticipate 17 back.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

labsforme said:


> Not being there and seeing every series, having no handles may not necessarily mean "clean". If they keep up their precedent of carrying dogs with two handles I anticipate 17 back.


I would say to the point we’re at now with number of handles throughout the entire trial. and the number of clean dogs through 8 series, it’s safe to say those clean dogs are probably in somewhat decent shape. Especially when handling became strategy. Some of these marking tests I’d imagine you’re running with whistle in mouth and butthole puckered! But, that’s why I said per the blog. Blog is notorious for sugar coating.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I wasn't belittling your comment. It is very hard to gauge what is really happening.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

labsforme said:


> I wasn't belittling your comment. It is very hard to gauge what is really happening.


Yes! Wish I was there! With a clean dog going to the 9th! Lol


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

All I can say is that this has been a very difficult National. Being on the worker side from throwing birds to chairing a committee to being a co-chief marshal, I truly can appreciate the work it takes to put this on. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You to all those that helped put it on. If you’ve never helped, when it comes near you, volunteer. You will meet the coolest people in the world and see some spectacular animals.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

bjoiner said:


> All I can say is that this has been a very difficult National. Being on the worker side from throwing birds to chairing a committee to being a co-chief marshal, I truly can appreciate the work it takes to put this on. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You to all those that helped put it on. If you’ve never helped, when it comes near you, volunteer. You will meet the coolest people in the world and see some spectacular animals.


Have they given you guys callbacks yet?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Why no callbacks? Any ideas?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Connection issues? Should be posted soon.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

2tall said:


> Why no callbacks? Any ideas?


Use your imagination


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

EdA said:


> Use your imagination


Not helpful. I am not assuming anything. I’m asking a real question of those that might know.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

No more guessing. Water blind first thing tomorrow.

*Callbacks to the 9th Series*

15 dogs were called back: 5, 12, 15, 16, 21, 28, 33, 43, 48, 51, 52, 53, 56, 61, and 66. 
12 dogs dropped: 1, 8, 20, 35, 38, 41, 46, 62, 69, 74, 76 and 92


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Best of luck to the remaining dogs - especially Bubba and Oakley!


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

and the names of dogs called to 9th


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## testdog (Aug 26, 2021)

Good luck to all, may the final leave no questions.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Wide variety of work in this 15. There won't be a problem in my opinion


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

Have been working there all week and agree with Paul that there’s a lot of variety between the remaining dogs. It’s also great to see so many talented yellow dogs in the mix. Best of luck to all those going into the 9th.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Wide variety of work in this 15. There won't be a problem in my opinion


15 has become 16, #20 reinstated


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

EdA said:


> 15 has become 16, #20 reinstated


OH MY!!


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

? 2o has been reinstated?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Well...

If nothing else this has been an extremely interesting national.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Go Girls!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

S


Bryan Parks said:


> Well...
> 
> If nothing else this has been an extremely interesting national.


Some who are/were there might use a different adjective


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

What do you all think? 

Water double for the 10th?


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Water triple with a flyer and 2 retired.. sketch is up in blog


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

acemedic1 said:


> Water triple with a flyer and 2 retired.. sketch is up in blog


Apparently it was going to be a Quad. Per the blog’s post on the 2nd test dog….” After the second Test Dog ran, the Judges decided to take out the left-hand flyer, making the test a Water Triple with One Flyer and Two Retired.”


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## acemedic1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Man the no birds have to be the hardest part


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Well... hopefully they don't run out of flyer!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Question... to what extent does a 'home team' dog and handler have an advantage in an event like this?


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

A double no-bird in the final series. YIKES.


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## cmcarrier (Oct 16, 2010)

Tobias said:


> Question... to what extent does a 'home team' dog and handler have an advantage in an event like this?


I was thinking that too. Didn't Mully win on his home grounds?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

While 2 no-birds is unfortunate, can’t be as bad of luck as Case Adams and Deacon had a couple years ago with 5-6 no birds in a row in the 10th series.


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## cjaz (Jan 28, 2009)

Alvin might be able to handle and still win. Per the blog posts, it looks like his to lose. Has an amateur handler ever won back to back Nationals? That would be simply incredible.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Peter Balzer said:


> While 2 no-birds is unfortunate, can’t be as bad of luck as Case Adams and Deacon had a couple years ago with 5-6 no birds in a row in the 10th series.


Not sure if Casey and Deacon had that but you might possibly be thinking about “Deke” and Kenny Trott with 9 no-birds.


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## cjaz (Jan 28, 2009)

Looks like the only two dogs without a handle are the last two to run, Would be pretty exciting to be there and watch those two run.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Question... to what extent does a 'home team' dog and handler have an advantage in an event like this?


A pretty big one! The dog has prob been on that pond 100’s or 1000’s of times. In theory it could probably work against you too. But more so in your favor.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Are the no birds a result of the judges setting a test that's very difficult for the gunners to perform? I'm assuming the birds were hit, but not landing in the same spot every time.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Dave Farrar said:


> Are the no birds a result of the judges setting a test that's very difficult for the gunners to perform? I'm assuming the birds were hit, but not landing in the same spot every time.


Too many judges misuse flyers by trying to make them controlled birds which they are not. They need a large area of the fall, if you want a controlled bird throw a dead one, this is particularly true if using a pheasant. There are several relative components to flyers, species, wind, thrower, shooters, and fall area. To have a good flyer requires understanding all of those and many judges have never thrown and shot a flyer and are unfamiliar with the variables. And then compound that by having multiple flyers. Also throwing and shooting ducks is quite different than throwing and shooting pheasants, maybe there should be a training course.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Why aren't simulated flyers used more? Too much hassle setting them up?


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

J. Marti said:


> Why aren't simulated flyers used more? Too much hassle setting them up?


The short and simple answer is because they aren't a real flyer
It's actually easier to set up a simulated fire than an actual flyer


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> Why aren't simulated flyers used more? Too much hassle setting them up?


Because they are just that, simulated, a glorified dead bird that always falls in the same spot.


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## cjaz (Jan 28, 2009)

This flyer doesn't appear to shot into a tight spot at all. Looks like there is plenty of room to ride them out.


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## GWEvans (Feb 2, 2021)

Could someone explain wha a simulated flyer is and how it works?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

cjaz said:


> This flyer doesn't appear to shot into a tight spot at all. Looks like there is plenty of room to ride them out.


Ride them out converging with a shorter dead bird, you must be joking…….


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

GWEvans said:


> Could someone explain wha a simulated flyer is and how it works?


It's simply a dead bird that they try to dress up the bird station to make it look like it's an actual flyer with a couple orange crates and a thrower/multiple gunners etcetera


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

GWEvans said:


> Could someone explain wha a simulated flyer is and how it works?


It is a dead bird with three people, one thrower 2 shooters as in a real flyer


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Alvin and Dozer finish w o a handle.
But from the blog description sounds like had a big big hunt on the last bird


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

EdA said:


> Ride them out converging with a shorter dead bird, you must be joking…….


3rd series deja vu


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## cjaz (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm not joking. I'm looking at a picture and guessing on how much room there is. Maybe it's tighter than it appears. My guess looking at those pictures is that a 40-45 yd flyer would not interfere with that converging dead bird. But again I'm not there, I'm looking at a picture. And yes I've thrown and shot quite a few flyers in all age trials. I think these judges have done an awesome job of setting up challenging tests and keeping their foot on the gas the whole way. But it certainly seems like I might be the only one here that feels that way. This could be one of the more memorable Nationals in a while. I watched 8 series of the National in Cheraw in 21'. Would have rather seen this one.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Learned something today. For the people I have trained with, a simulated flyer is a live, shackled bird with a hood or vet wrap over its eyes. So it is thrown, someone fires a shotgun but only pretends to shoot the bird, and the bird falls because it is hooded. 

I didn't know the other definition that Dr. Ed gave. I can understand why simulated flyers might be too much of a hassle and too erratic for a field trial though.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

cjaz said:


> I'm not joking. I'm looking at a picture and guessing on how much room there is. Maybe it's tighter than it appears. My guess looking at those pictures is that a 40-45 yd flyer would not interfere with that converging dead bird. But again I'm not there, I'm looking at a picture. And yes I've thrown and shot quite a few flyers in all age trials. I think these judges have done an awesome job of setting up challenging tests and keeping their foot on the gas the whole way. But it certainly seems like I might be the only one here that feels that way. This could be one of the more memorable Nationals in a while. I watched 8 series of the National in Cheraw in 21'. Would have rather seen this one.


The problem with converging a flyer, especially a pheasant, with a dead bird is that where your flyer falls greatly affects the dead bird it is converging with, it makes for an inequitable test depending on your flyer. I’m not sure what your experience level judging and running all age stakes is but for most of those who ran it, it will be memorable for sure and not in a good way.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

J. Marti said:


> Learned something today. For the people I have trained with, a simulated flyer is a live, shackled bird with a hood or vet wrap over its eyes. So it is thrown, someone fires a shotgun but only pretends to shoot the bird, and the bird falls because it is hooded.
> 
> I didn't know the other definition that Dr. Ed gave. I can understand why simulated flyers might be too much of a hassle and too erratic for a field trial though.


 Plus the fact that it is illegal to use a shackled bird in a trial


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> Learned something today. For the people I have trained with, a simulated flyer is a live, shackled bird with a hood or vet wrap over its eyes. So it is thrown, someone fires a shotgun but only pretends to shoot the bird, and the bird falls because it is hooded.
> 
> I didn't know the other definition that Dr. Ed gave. I can understand why simulated flyers might be too much of a hassle and too erratic for a field trial though.


By rule you cannot throw a live shackled bird in a field trial.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Alvin did it back to back!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Alvin did it back to back!


With different dogs, historic accomplishment


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Callbacks have Alvin Hatcher and new NAFC FC AFC Dozer as the winner! Congratulations to this team!


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

EdA said:


> With different dogs, historic accomplishment


Rarified air indeed.
Imagine getting a phone call to stud and you get to ask “which of my National Champs are you asking about”


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

Alvin’s a hammer!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Rarified air indeed.
> Imagine getting a phone call to stud and you get to ask “which of my National Champs are you asking about”


It is easy to be happy for him because he is a really good guy.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

EdA said:


> It is easy to be happy for him because he is a really good guy.


He is a great guy and he does have great dogs.
Congratulations Alvin it's easy to be happy for a guy like you


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Congrats to Bubba and Oakley as well for being finalists. Amazing accomplishment. There aren’t many contributors to RTF these days and he is one of them. Hope to meet him someday.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> He is a great guy and he does have great dogs.
> Congratulations Alvin it's easy to be happy for a guy like you


Along with the accolades let’s not forget Alan Pleasant


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## RN (Feb 10, 2006)

Congratulations to Steve Kompf and Buster. Buster at the end of his career, at 11yrs old finishing the NARC. Quite an accomplishment.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Dang now what ! No blog , no thread. I ll guess that I ll get more done next week and my 
“ use meter” will go down. 
Lordy my dependent life. !


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Another Grady son with NAFC in front of his name! That's pretty amazing!


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

J. Marti said:


> Learned something today. For the people I have trained with, a simulated flyer is a live, shackled bird with a hood or vet wrap over its eyes. So it is thrown, someone fires a shotgun but only pretends to shoot the bird, and the bird falls because it is hooded.
> 
> I didn't know the other definition that Dr. Ed gave. I can understand why simulated flyers might be too much of a hassle and too erratic for a field trial though.


Once again J Marti as I already explained to you in post 349, and contrary to what you again claim, a sinulated flyer is simpler to set up and execute. 
It is also far LESS erratic than an actual flyer


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

tigerfan said:


> Once again J Marti as I already explained to you in post 349, and contrary to what you again claim, a sinulated flyer is simpler to set up and execute.
> It is also far LESS erratic than an actual flyer


I initially read it the same, but upon further reading/deciphering, I think she meant using a hooded flyer because she preceded the statement that she didn't know the 'other definition' given by Dr Ed.


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## Wbarstow (Mar 25, 2017)

Least we forget that before Alvin Hatcher was Ken Neil also with back to back national wins with two different dogs , all trained by Alan Pleasant


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Peter Balzer said:


> Rarified air indeed.
> Imagine getting a phone call to stud and you get to ask “which of my National Champs are you asking about”


Indeed - the numbers achieving multiple NFC/NAFC are much smaller than even the DH club.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

What a ride. Not much sleep this week but worth every second of it. This was my third NARC to run. There is a huge strategy to running a National that is key in finishing. Oakley was unreal all week. It is very intense running one and even more knowing you are running well and in contention. Alvin and Dozier were certainly deserving of the championship and couldn’t of happened to a nicer guy.

Oakley stole the show with everyone that saw her run. She’s the happiest most loving dog in existence. One of the many volunteers said she shoots ❤ out of her eyes when she looks at me. She brought tears to my eyes more than once this week with her effort. She had a phenomenal trial going into the eighth. I had to put a quick/strategic handle on her where 5 dogs in a row got in trouble. The last series was hot hot. She might have been able to run around and get the last bird without a handle, but I could have just as easily got her in trouble with an old flyer deep and the heat. With all that said, I am very proud of her and my effort all week. Thanks to all support. I was checking in here periodically.

Also, thanks to Paul Gilmore for all his work. He busted his tail for two weeks. There are very few that realize what it takes to put on one of these, and even fewer








that pitch in and make it happen. Thanks.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

What an incredible ride for you and Oakley. The connection she has with you is palpable.even through a flat screen. Congratulations on the highest order!!


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Congratulations, Bubba! Such a beautiful picture showing the bond between man and dog. Good Luck to every one in your endeavors for the rest of the year!!


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

bjoiner said:


> What a ride. Not much sleep this week but worth every second of it. This was my third NARC to run. There is a huge strategy to running a National that is key in finishing. Oakley was unreal all week. It is very intense running one and even more knowing you are running well and in contention. Alvin and Dozier were certainly deserving of the championship and couldn’t of happened to a nicer guy.
> 
> Oakley stole the show with everyone that saw her run. She’s the happiest most loving dog in existence. One of the many volunteers said she shoots ❤ out of her eyes when she looks at me. She brought tears to my eyes more than once this week with her effort. She had a phenomenal trial going into the eighth. I had to put a quick/strategic handle on her where 5 dogs in a row got in trouble. The last series was hot hot. She might have been able to run around and get the last bird without a handle, but I could have just as easily got her in trouble with an old flyer deep and the heat. With all that said, I am very proud of her and my effort all week. Thanks to all support. I was checking in here periodically.
> 
> ...


Great post and tribute to a great dog Bubba
Thanks for sharing good luck the rest of the Year and happy birthday


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Congratulations Bubba, congratulations Oakley.

To Alvin and Dozier too, the champions!


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Huge Congrats Bubba! What a ride and a special memory you'll always have. Those times when your dog digs deep, gives it their all and is a team player is why we all do it. So happy for you, Oakley, Lynn, and your family. 

If you have time and feel like it, I'd love to hear some of your commentary/analysis of the series and what you thought were some key points or how you dissected the test before you stepped to the mat.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Peter Balzer said:


> Huge Congrats Bubba! What a ride and a special memory you'll always have. Those times when your dog digs deep, gives it their all and is a team player is why we all do it. So happy for you, Oakley, Lynn, and your family.
> 
> If you have time and feel like it, I'd love to hear some of your commentary/analysis of the series and what you thought were some key points or how you dissected the test before you stepped to the mat.


I’m in continuing education class now so I will try to give my analysis series by series with how I approached each series. First and foremost, I will not say anything to negative the efforts of the judges or workers (me and others helped throw a few times) at this trial. Their efforts were greatly appreciated.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

1st & 2nd series. The land double with hen pheasants was a very good double. Hens were necessary due to limited availability of birds in that area. The test was very open with the flyer shot towards the test due to traffic coming in. I didn’t see that play a major role. The left retired was a hard bird to stay in front of the guns. Dropped off into a bottom behind and deep of the bird. I pushed out to the bird and sent on easy. She was good and stayed out on it. 

Series 2 land blind was a very tight keyhole that if your dog got a good picture it was easy, if not it was trouble. I had to work to get Oakley to give a good look. She was thinking the blind should be back in the test instead of way off to the side. I finally got a good look and she lined it. Big sigh of relief to get through the first one after going clean across the country.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

3rd & 4th Series ended up being very difficult. The short retired was a bridge bird thrown across a channel from one point to another. Excellent bird placement. The flyer was a little deeper shot hip pocket. There was little to no room to hunt behind the retired gun and outside right dogs ran deep and rarely recovered. Dogs that just saw a channel swam to the end and rarely recovered. Lots of quick handles after very few dogs did it clean. 

Oakley hit her flyer hard. My strategy on the retired was to have her thinking easy even though it was a disciplined water bird. She was on my page and knew where her birds were. That one choked me up a bit. Had to regather and run the blind. The blind wasn’t that hard, but you had to hit an angle entry tight to the shore then on and off a point with an angle exit. Oakley is a right turning dog. I wanted an early whistle to get control early. Stop and casted left to be able to stop and get a right with momentum before hitting the water. She was good the rest of the way.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I was REALLY rooting for you and Oakley...

Congratulations on being a finalist! - Paul


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

5th series was a challenging running water quad. Long simulated flyer, right retired thrown right behind the simulated flyer, left shorter island bird and short flyer with a sluice thrown out of the test. There was a big blackberry bush that was in the path of the simulated flyer and the island bird.
My strategy first was not to break. Got a no bird. Pulling her off was a challenge. Being clean I decided to play a bit safe on retired birds and shoot at holding blinds. This series, to me, had a big strategy of what side of the mat to run from due to cover patches up front and the blackberry bush. My initial thoughts was to show birds from my right side. Long simulated then push to the right retired, stay sill for left retired to make sure she didn’t swing through to the flyer then pray she sits until I get my number.
We were good on the flyer and selected island second from left side of the mat to get a good angle to island holding blind. I felt like that was the safe play on a very key bird. She did as planned. She found the blind and jumped across to the island. Right retired was next (stuck with my training) from left side of the mat to get the angle to holding blind and away from simulated flyer. She was excellent here as well and went under the arch to the bird. Last bird was the simulated flyer which you couldn’t tell but was out of sight in route 90% of the way. Oakley looked out and I tried to step up from the right side of the mat. You couldn’t run a straight line to the bird to to the blackberry bush. She held a straight line and came up backside of the guns, Mad a loop and got her bird.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

6th series is where the nerves set in a bit. It’s not late enough to plan strategic handles, but it’s close enough you start thinking about finishing. This was a water quad that had a lot of head swinging potential. Left flyer, big/huge swing to right retired, swing back to long retired, then right go bird. 

Put Oakley on my left hoping she pulled with me off the flyer through two guns to right retired which she did. Step up but not too much to the long retired. Stayed still for cheaty go bird which was close enough for the pop to pull her. Got a little frazzled being called to the line earlier than expected. Luckily I got a no bird. Second try, she watched all her birds well. I treated this like a double double. Go bird first then right retired second (gave dogs more trouble than I thought). Hard to stay in front of an stay at the bottom of the hill. Ran that one from the back right of the mat to help prevent falling down the terrace and behind the gun. She was good. Her flyer was a little short which was good and she got it quick. Long retired was well placed and close enough if you pushed too much to stay in front of the gun, you had trouble getting past the flyer. She was watery and swam to the end, reentered and got out in-line with the backside of the guns, but she corrected and did very good for me. 

I have to say that this series is where Lynn Troy was worth her weight in gold she settled me in after the no bird and had me refocus on our plan. She is an excellent trainer and coach and better friend.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Exceptional. This is exactly the commentary I was looking for. No point in talking about the judges/set-up etc you just gotta run what's put out there.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

7th series land blind with 27 dogs back. This was a decent land blind, but not a ball buster. Water sluice with an extra pop. Run from a ridge across the road tight to guns next to the water, up a slight side hill, angle across the road and to the bird.

On this blind the challenge was to run tight behind the guns without disappearing into the water and hold the side hill and angle at the end. I think I had two cast to get tight to the gun and had to trust her to hold her line. She did very well.I checked up on this blog and heard a lot of comments about the blinds. Please understand this. In a weekend trial, blinds usually don’t trip up your higher pointed dogs, especially land blinds without a poison bird. These are the top dogs in the country and they handle most blinds very well.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

The 8th series to the eye looked like the easiest of the previous quads to eye. Not too fast. Lots of room to run around and dogs proved they will. This was the only double flyer in the trial. Left flyer duck shot out of the test, middle hen pheasant retired thrown left, right hen retired and hen pheasant flyer shot right. Mowed strips deep caused lots and lots of trouble on both retired birds.

Again with Oakley I plans to do a double double with right two then left two. Haha. She changed that crap. Showed off my left and she watched the birds well. Hen pheasant flyer was good, then she flat out said He’ll no, that duck flyer was going to be next. I changed my plan. Got duck flyer second clean and went back into the left retired second. I saw like five dogs in a row miss this bird and get into the flyer fall. She was good but too a bit too much water that put her up wind of the dead pheasant. I had planned if she got there to put on a quick whistle and live another day. She had a very quick handle. Sent on easy for the right retired which is hard to get yourself focused after a handle, butt she and I held it together and she hit it hard.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

9th series water blind was a nice water blind. You would likely see this in a weekend amateur trial. Line was tight to a corner of water but not necessarily in. Angle entry, over an island and angle down a channel tight to a point but wet.

Oakley took an excellent line, but flipped in cover at the bottom. Had to give a few whistles to get back on track. She casted easy into the water and to the island. One on top of the island for safety no matter what and a couple to finish dead on line. Played this blind safe to make sure I get to the tenth. There was one pickup and the rest did it ok.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

10th series started out as a land water quad with two rooster flyers and two retired ducks one was an island bird. Thankfully the committee and judges decided to remove the left flyer due to the anticipated heat. The triple ended up being shot long flyer, right island bird retired and left go bird retired in route. Dog lost sight of throwers in route so retiring in route didn’t effect dogs. Most dogs got this bird ok but a few blew through it. 

I ran Oakley off my right to make sure she saw the island bird. Again she watched the birds well. I sent in easy taking my time on the go bird since it was short and tight in line to the flyer gunners. She did well here. I planned to go island bird second. She gave me a really good luck and took a great line. Went just down wind of the island but the wind stopped dead when I ran. Just enough bad luck that she ran up to the flyer and got it quick. Had a lot of quick planning to go back to the island on the same initial line. Got a good luck and really thought I had it. She flared that line and wend back side of the holding blind. At that point, I had a choice. I could either let her have a big hunt and hopefully not get in trouble in 95 degree heat or put her on the bird with a quick handle. I chose the handle and keep her out of trouble with the heat.

With this, I am extremely proud of her and my national. It was very hard on the dogs physically, and I would like to thank all the Sport Dog vet teams that were there. They are the definite unsung heroes there for Oakley and many others. Awesome experience and thanks to all.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Awesome Recap! Thanks


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Very much enjoyed that series by series breakdown and in particular you including your decision making processes for showing birds/sending/etc. Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time.


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