# Pointing labs!!



## misarskennels (Mar 25, 2010)

Am I crazy or is there an over abundant amount of "pointing labs" on the RTF?


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

Your crazy!!


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

your crazy


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Can someone help me out here?
What is the reason for a pointing lab? 
Aren't upland retrievers supposed to flush game, not point at it?
I expect the boy to flush the bird then sit on his fuzzybutt until sent to retrieve the bird. He will point small game (rabbits, mice) around my yard, but never a bird in the field. He flushes those.
Sorry to sound dumb, just don't get it. Probably just lack of knowledge and/or experience on my part.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Barb my same thoughts.


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## Dave Mirek (Jan 23, 2007)

I think we all have our thoughts and it relates to what we do with our dogs. I don't have pointing labs, mine flush, but I have hunted with a number of older gentlemen (70's) that have great pointers allowing them to have a great duck dog and then an extremely hard charging upland dog that will wait for them to catch up and make a shot. As a wild bird hunter too, I can't say that having a dog that sits on the flush is too beneficial as those big roosters routinely hit the ground with legs and will be a mile away when you send your dog. I understand sit to flush for a guide dog on a game farm or for something to put as a requirement for a test but in my eyes (just my personal opinion for my needs) it isn't a trait for a gun dog. Again we all have our own opinions and needs and I would love a good pointing lab that can


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## Dave Mirek (Jan 23, 2007)

Sorry, closed windo to soon, a pointing lab that can be competitive in the rest of the games that help is pass time until hunting season.


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## westksbowhunter (Jan 24, 2005)

My lab points naturally. Hunted him with a few a few master hunter titled dogs over the years and it was quite embarrasing for the owners of the titled dogs. He can out hunt any dog alive in the uplands. He can't run a 400 yd blind but he can trail a crippled rooster for a mile.


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## westksbowhunter (Jan 24, 2005)

Sadie & Ruby said:


> I think we all have our thoughts and it relates to what we do with our dogs. I don't have pointing labs, mine flush, but I have hunted with a number of older gentlemen (70's) that have great pointers allowing them to have a great duck dog and then an extremely hard charging upland dog that will wait for them to catch up and make a shot. As a wild bird hunter too, I can't say that having a dog that sits on the flush is too beneficial as those big roosters routinely hit the ground with legs and will be a mile away when you send your dog. I understand sit to flush for a guide dog on a game farm or for something to put as a requirement for a test but in my eyes (just my personal opinion for my needs) it isn't a trait for a gun dog. Again we all have our own opinions and needs and I would love a good pointing lab that can


I agree. I want my dog on top of a rooster the second it hits the ground.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Can someone help me out here?
> What is the reason for a pointing lab?
> Aren't upland retrievers supposed to flush game, not point at it?
> I expect the boy to flush the bird then sit on his fuzzybutt until sent to retrieve the bird. He will point small game (rabbits, mice) around my yard, but never a bird in the field. He flushes those.
> Sorry to sound dumb, just don't get it. Probably just lack of knowledge and/or experience on my part.


Pointing labs are the ideal dog for a shooting preserve. They work close & are easier to control than true pointing breeds and the pen raised birds tend to hold much better than wild birds do. The typical customer of these facilities isn’t likely to be a very sophisticated connoisseur of fine dog work so he or she is easily impressed that the dog “tells” them when he’s found a bird. The novice shooter is also more likely to make the shot when they have the chance to get closer & prepare for it. When the bird is hit, the dog (being a Lab) is also more likely to make the retrieve which results in a happy customer.

For wild pheasant hunting however, a hard driving flushing dog will present more birds for the gun.


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## Richard McCullough (Sep 22, 2009)

misarskennels said:


> Am I crazy or is there an over abundant amount of "pointing labs" on the RTF?


Your Crazy  
The Style, flush or point is totally up to what the owner wants. I hunted for years over a pair of flushing labs and loved it. Then I got my Pointing Lab in 2007. I do not think I will get any other type Lab again.
This fall they spent numerous days duck hunting in the morning only to come out of the marsh right into an upland hunt


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> Pointing labs are the ideal dog for a shooting preserve. They work close & are easier to control than true pointing breeds and the pen raised birds tend to hold much better than wild birds do. The typical customer of these facilities isn’t likely to be a very sophisticated connoisseur of fine dog work so he or she is easily impressed that the dog “tells” them when he’s found a bird. The novice shooter is also more likely to make the shot when they have the chance to get closer & prepare for it. When the bird is hit, the dog (being a Lab) is also more likely to make the retrieve which results in a happy customer.
> 
> For wild pheasant hunting however, a hard driving flushing dog will present more birds for the gun.


Man Dave after 30 yrs in the hunting preserve industry I guess I got it all wrong. Jim


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

My current dog is a flusher, but after having the opportunity to hunt with a pointing lab last fall. I have no doubt that my next lab will come from pointing lines! As of now, I'm completely sold it. Narrowed the breeders down to a couple. Just waiting for the OK from the wife!


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## westksbowhunter (Jan 24, 2005)

Dave Flint said:


> Pointing labs are the ideal dog for a shooting preserve. They work close & are easier to control than true pointing breeds and the pen raised birds tend to hold much better than wild birds do. The typical customer of these facilities isn’t likely to be a very sophisticated connoisseur of fine dog work so he or she is easily impressed that the dog “tells” them when he’s found a bird. The novice shooter is also more likely to make the shot when they have the chance to get closer & prepare for it. When the bird is hit, the dog (being a Lab) is also more likely to make the retrieve which results in a happy customer.
> 
> For wild pheasant hunting however, a hard driving flushing dog will present more birds for the gun.


Great observation from a Texas native. I live in western Kansas and I find your post to be totally false.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Sadie & Ruby said:


> As a wild bird hunter too, I can't say that having a dog that sits on the flush is too beneficial as those big roosters routinely hit the ground with legs and will be a mile away when you send your dog. I understand sit to flush for a guide dog on a game farm or for something to put as a requirement for a test but in my eyes (just my personal opinion for my needs) it isn't a trait for a gun dog.




There are a lot of reasons for a steady upland dog. 
•	It’s safer. 
•	It doesn’t distract the shooter. 
•	It doesn’t block the shot on a low flying bird. 
•	It doesn’t flush other birds while chasing a hen. 
•	It doesn’t run across the road after a missed bird or hen. 
•	It marks the fall better. 
•	It saves energy (on misses or fly aways). 
•	It’s a more “refined” performance.
•	It doesn’t steal the other dogs retrieves.

There is typically only one reason given for not having a steady upland dog and that really is inconsequential for one reason; you can send the dog early if you cripple the bird.


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## steveMO (Nov 26, 2011)

A lot of people who would like to have a pointing dog are intimidated by range and think the dog will run off. It won't, but this is an ever-present fear for many novices. Ergo, the PL.


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## Dave Mirek (Jan 23, 2007)

In all reality I think that the lab is the most versatile dog out there, everyone here has great points of what works for their needs and the beautiful thing is that we can all find a breeding out there that can give us what we all want and desire.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Pointing Labs is easy. Yas just take an afternoon and teach um to stand real still when they smell birds.

There ain't no such thing as a Pointing dog in an asparagus field regards

Bubba


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

westksbowhunter said:


> Great observation from a Texas native. I live in western Kansas and I find your post to be totally false.


Which part?


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Dave Flint said:


> There are a lot of reasons for a steady upland dog.
> •	It’s safer. Only if hunting with unsafe shooters, in which we should never do
> •	It doesn’t distract the shooter. That's interesting
> •	It doesn’t block the shot on a low flying bird. True, but not often
> ...


I'm sorry I found your list a little amusing and half of it seems like you were trying to think up anything just to add to your list.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

mngundog said:


> I'm sorry I found your list a little amusing and half of it seems like you were trying to think up anything just to add to your list.


Along with the reasons posted above, if I let that dog flush and chase or break on the shot it pretty much goes against every thing we have trained for.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> Along with the reasons posted above, if I let that dog flush and chase or break on the shot it pretty much goes against every thing we have trained for.


I train my upland dogs to flush then recover game, I don't feel the need to impede my dogs on the either.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

mngundog said:


> I'm sorry I found your list a little amusing and half of it seems like you were trying to think up anything just to add to your list.


Glad you found it amusing, allow me to respond to your responses (still in red).

• It’s safer. Only if hunting with unsafe shooters, in which we should never do
• It doesn’t distract the shooter. That's interesting. I shoot every weekend over spaniels that are in various stages of training. I am asked to do this because I’m known as a very safe shooter in that I maintain an awareness of what’s going on around me at all times. I can assure you that I find it easier to hit when the dog is steady than when it is chasing.

• It doesn’t block the shot on a low flying bird. True, but not often. I can think of several times while hunting (usually w/ quail) when I didn’t shoot because of a chasing dog. This happens far more often for me than failing to find a crippled rooster, possibly because I train on this skill.

• It doesn’t flush other birds while chasing a hen. But it going to flush other birds while ranging. Sorry, no comprende.

• It doesn’t run across the road after a missed bird or hen. In 35 years of upland this is a non issue. If it seems like I’ve had this argument before it’s because I have over many miles of traveling w/ a good friend who was on your side. After a very close call w/ a semi & his shorthaired, he now agrees w/ my point of view on this subject. It’s the only argument I’ve every won w/ him.

• It marks the fall better. False. Really?, then do you let your duck dog break at the shot too? I lose more crippled ducks than pheasants most years. 

• It saves energy (on misses or fly aways). Four leaps a flush, thats a lot of energy wasted. Again, I don’t know what this means. Are you saying you stop the dog w/in four leaps if it’s a hen or missed? That seems like you’ve got to be more on the ball than I do w/ my approach of sending early on the poorly hit rooster. I typically flush 7 or 8 hens for every rooster.

• It’s a more “refined” performance. Maybe for the show folks. Lol, also for the spaniel field trialers, you know, those guys whose mission is to identify breed stock for premier pheasant dogs?

• It doesn’t steal the other dogs retrieves. Stop whistle. Because every dog worth feeding will break sooner or later, I agree w/ you on this one.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

There seems to be a belief among those who have posted that there is a difference between "pointing Labs" and AKC FT Labs. I'm not sure this is true.

I have no personal experience with the APLA. I only know what I've read about their program and what I've seen of dogs that have been tested in the APLA hunt tests. However, I do have over 25 years of experience hunting pheasant and quail with Labrador retrievers. My first Lab, Blaze, was out of a Super Chief line-bred sire (DaRose's E T by Itchin' to Go x Cup a Soup; Itch was by Air Express who was a Soupy son and Cup a Soup was a Soupy daughter). Blaze's mother was a double grand-daughter of '72 & '75 NAFC and 3x CNFC River Oaks Corky. Those two dogs were arguably the dominate AKC FT dogs of the late '60's and early '70's. There was no such thing as the APLA in those days and nobody to my knowledge was breeding for pointing traits in the Labrador retriever. None the less, Blaze would point a bird that would "sit tight". I didn't teach him or even encourage the point; he did it naturally. 

My second dog, Echo, was out of Wilderness Harley to Go who was a major producer of FT Labs. Harley produced 5 dogs who won a national title (NFC, NAFC, CNF, & CNAFC) qualified for 3 national opens and was a "finalist" in the 1989 National Amateur. Harley was bred on Super Chief and River Oaks Corky lines through his sire, FC-AFC Itchin' to Go and his dam, AFC Black Golds Candlewood Kate (Kate was by NAFC-FC River Oaks Rascal, a Corky son, out of FC-AFC Candlewoods Nellie-B-Good, a Soupy daughter). Echo was one of the strongest pointing Labs I have hunted behind.

More recently I had a grandson of Ebonstar Lean Mac. Mac produced more AKC FC's than any sire in the history of the Labrador breed. I have also hunted with another grandson of Mac. Both were very strong pointing dogs. I would say that the pointing trait is well ingrained in AKC FT bloodlines. 

I don't think you can say that the differences between the AKC FT Labs and APLA "pointing" Lab as a group is that great. I'd say that you can find as much "diversity" within each group as you can between either group. I don't see the pointing Lab thing as a great sin being perpetrated on the Labrador retriever, as long as their breeder's maintain the rest of the traits that are essential to have in a proper Lab! As I understand it, the testing for the highest title in the APLA includes tradional marking and blind running as well as the pointing test. It was described to me as similar in difficulty to an AKC Senior test.

My guess is that if many of you took your dogs upland hunting you might find that your traditional AKC FT bred Labs would point upland birds that would sit tight. Those of you that are arguing the pros and cons of flushers vs. pointers are missing the _point! 

_And yes, the OP is crazy!

Swack


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

They point because they are scared of the birds.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> They point because they are scared of the birds.


Either that or their carnivores. I have even seen humans point, give grandma a fly swatter and she'll even point

On a serious note I enjoyed the history swack....


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## westksbowhunter (Jan 24, 2005)

My dog is sired by a master hunter out of Riks Risky Raider. His dam was a certified pointing lab out of Dakota's Cajun Roux. I did not buy him as a pointing lab but at around 10 months old he started pointing naturally. He will point pheasants when they hold otherwise he is a flusher. Quail he generally points all the time. He has never attempted to point a dove or any waterfowl. He is just one terrific hunting dog that pics up several thousand wild birds each season. 

To Happy Gilmore your quote just shows what a dbag you really are. I could go around saying that those who run down pointing labs and have their noses in the air are all gay but it simply isn't true. Saying "all" is a way out of line. I am sure the % is only around 50%. So it would be a coin flip with you.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

LOL... Dbag? That's not nice!

What do you think of this Chessie's point? Is it certifiable? I promise, no lie. It held point until I flushed the bird. Stylish huh?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

mngundog said:


> I train my upland dogs to flush then recover game, I don't feel the need to impede my dogs on the either.


, 

Mine flush as well but when the bird gets up they plant there butt on the ground, marking the fall, untill sent for the retrieve. Don't care to hunt with a dog that breaks or chases birds.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Watching a pointing dog point & relocate multiple times on a moving rooster can be amusing for awhile, but if he does manage to pin it down, it’s not much sport to hit a big, slow pheasant that flushes at your feet. At least for a grown man who’s handled a shotgun a bit.


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## dalgrabe (Feb 1, 2012)

very well said


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave Flint said:


> Watching a pointing dog point & relocate multiple times on a moving rooster can be amusing for awhile, but if he does manage to pin it down, it’s not much sport to hit a big, slow pheasant that flushes at your feet. At least for a grown man who’s handled a shotgun a bit.


I shot a couple dozen in Fort Pierre that way over 20 different pointing dogs. My bitch who's about to drop some pups was far more a pleasure to shoot over than any pointer in my opinion


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I enjoy hunting over both, really I just enjoy watching dogs work if they point I am all for letting hunters shoulder their shotguns and flushing it, when a dog is trailing a bird I alert hunters and when the dog flushes the bird they are ready.

I love labs and they are very versitile, choose what you like I dont think that one is better than the other.


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## J_Brown (Jan 4, 2013)

Dang... sure is a lot of hatred toward pointing labs around here. I guess now I'm glad I do more lurking than posting. I didn't realize my pointing BLF pup was so inferior to the rest of the Labs out there. And what's worse is now I know that I'll be considered a "novice" for shooting birds over a pointing dog... wow.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

J_Brown said:


> Dang... sure is a lot of hatred toward pointing labs around here. I guess now I'm glad I do more lurking than posting. I didn't realize my pointing BLF pup was so inferior to the rest of the Labs out there. And what's worse is now I know that I'll be considered a "novice" for shooting birds over a pointing dog... wow.


I`m really thinking of starting a couple new breeds myself.One would be the pointing spaniel and the next will be the flushing Brittany.Have had a couple very soft on flush springers that went down the road,shoulda kept them...Haaaa! Jim


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

What, is it 1998 all over again? LOL


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## misarskennels (Mar 25, 2010)

Glad I started this thread, it looks like I'm not alone. Enough "pointing", "white", "red" and "silver" labs already! I train between 40 and 50 dogs a year, I also guide pheasant hunters at quite a few different lodges around the state retrieving thousands of birds with my own dogs so I think I am qualified enough to say stick with the real labs they have a lot more trainabilty and a much stronger desire to retrieve!


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## J_Brown (Jan 4, 2013)

misarskennels said:


> Glad I started this thread, it looks like I'm not alone. Enough "pointing", "white", "red" and "silver" labs already! I train between 40 and 50 dogs a year, I also guide pheasant hunters at quite a few different lodges around the state retrieving thousands of birds with my own dogs so *I think I am qualified enough to say stick with the real labs they have a lot more trainabilty and a much stronger desire to retrieve*!


I think there are plenty of pointing lab owners out there that would disagree. I bet there are just as many "real labs" out there with poor trainability and weak desire to retrieve. 

Lakota's Hurricane Cruz is a 4xGMPR and HRCH champion, and the youngest pointing lab to achieve 4xGMPR. Are you saying you'd rather hunt over a "real lab" than you would over Cruz??? 

There are a bunch of 3x and 4xGMPR's out there these days... The GMPR is a pretty tough test. So how can you say PL's lack trainability or desire to retrieve???


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

One prominent pointing lab breeder and trainer Guarantees his dogs will point. If they don't point, he will give free training to teach them to point. lol... kind of scratch my head about that one.


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## misarskennels (Mar 25, 2010)

I have hunted with your "gmpr" dogs many times in many different fields and they get schooled by dogs out of fc's every time! I'm not saying all pointing labs are junk just the majority, but as long as you enjoy your pup that's all that matters.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

misarskennels said:


> Glad I started this thread, it looks like I'm not alone. Enough "pointing", "white", "red" and "silver" labs already! I train between 40 and 50 dogs a year, I also guide pheasant hunters at quite a few different lodges around the state so I think I am qualified enough to say stick with the real labs they have a lot more trainabilty and a much stronger desire to retrieve!


That's because you have never seen my dog  

He's a great upland dog. Amazing nose, ranges out to about 60 yards, does a very thorough job hunting the terrain, understands how to work running birds and keep them in gun range-and he is enough of a gentleman to point and hold the birds until everyone is ready to flush and shoot.  In addition, he is the local go-to dog for Canada geese hunts (they are his favorite). He loves the water and is a strong swimmer.

As far as desire to retrieve? He would rather retrieve than eat, which is saying quite a bit for a lab. 

I have hunted him with pointers and shorthairs, both foot dogs and horseback trial dogs. He doesn't go as fast, or out as far-but I get to watch him work, and I don't need a beeper or GPS collar to find him. And he finds and points birds after the other dogs have run through the area....

To me, it is a simple matter of preference-do you want a pointer or a flusher? Otherwise, a lab is a lab-look for the best bred litter you can afford. Both my dogs have FC-AFC sires and titled dams....one is an MH, and one a JH who is a working guide's dog (who's parents are a MHR MH and a littermate to a NAFC-FC and a bunch of other FC-AFC dogs). 

Some labs point. Get over it


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

In the last ten years plus I think I have read "this thread" at least a hundred times.









Given that I haven't even shot at or hunted an upland bird in over three years, I feel "qualified" to comment as a totally unbiased observer.  

However, I won't.....because writing an unbiased comment (or two) will have no impact on anyone that is bias and/or just spending idle time taunting.









*"everyone has two choices"*









Regards, Jim


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Well said Jim.

When I first read this thread I was kind of annoyed. Then I had to go talk to my project manager about the job. I then came back and just kind of chuckled. A "real lab" really?! Man you wouldn't know a real pointing lab if it came up and bit you! Why? Because it's a LAB plain and simple that points instead of flushes. All the PL's I know are run in AKC and UKC and guess what? You can't tell the difference! I was even at hunt test one time and had a guy say hi as I walked up and then start back in on his conversation with a blow hard saying that the PL's had pointers bred into them and that's why they point. The funny thing is I just stood there laughing at this idiot that sat there and watched my dog run. Funny if he believed half of the crap he was spewing he would have went to the judges and filed a complaint that my dog wasn't eligible because it wasn't a "real" lab. I've got FC's, a MH, and a HRCH in my dog ped and I didn't even buy a pointing lab. The first time I went to pheasant preserve he pointed and that pointed me down this path. 

Trainability, drive, and intelegence? Look at my sig line and then tell me my dog doesn't have it. There's also been one or two FC that were titled as pointing labs. But..But...they're not "real labs"! Jeez, now that's kind of silly ain't it?

This is just silly. If you don't believe in Pointing Labs, don't buy one! If you don't believe in a PL, don't hunt with one! If you don't believe in PL's, don't train one! It's the same as if you don't want a lab, don't buy one! If you don't want a golden, don't buy one!


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> LOL... Dbag? That's not nice!
> 
> What do you think of this Chessie's point? Is it certifiable? I promise, no lie. It held point until I flushed the bird. Stylish huh?


Are you saying your dog isn't a real chessie or had pointer bred into it?


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Dave Flint said:


> Watching a pointing dog point & relocate multiple times on a moving rooster can be amusing for awhile, but if he does manage to pin it down, it’s not much sport to hit a big, slow pheasant that flushes at your feet. At least for a grown man who’s handled a shotgun a bit.


To each his own. I like watching a dog work the bird, but that's just me.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Swack said:


> There seems to be a belief among those who have posted that there is a difference between "pointing Labs" and AKC FT Labs. I'm not sure this is true.
> 
> I have no personal experience with the APLA. I only know what I've read about their program and what I've seen of dogs that have been tested in the APLA hunt tests. However, I do have over 25 years of experience hunting pheasant and quail with Labrador retrievers. My first Lab, Blaze, was out of a Super Chief line-bred sire (DaRose's E T by Itchin' to Go x Cup a Soup; Itch was by Air Express who was a Soupy son and Cup a Soup was a Soupy daughter). Blaze's mother was a double grand-daughter of '72 & '75 NAFC and 3x CNFC River Oaks Corky. Those two dogs were arguably the dominate AKC FT dogs of the late '60's and early '70's. There was no such thing as the APLA in those days and nobody to my knowledge was breeding for pointing traits in the Labrador retriever. None the less, Blaze would point a bird that would "sit tight". I didn't teach him or even encourage the point; he did it naturally.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info!


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## goblue20 (Nov 12, 2012)

Socks said:


> Well said Jim.
> 
> When I first read this thread I was kind of annoyed. Then I had to go talk to my project manager about the job. I then came back and just kind of chuckled. A "real lab" really?! Man you wouldn't know a real pointing lab if it came up and bit you! Why? Because it's a LAB plain and simple that points instead of flushes. All the PL's I know are run in AKC and UKC and guess what? You can't tell the difference! I was even at hunt test one time and had a guy say hi as I walked up and then start back in on his conversation with a blow hard saying that the PL's had pointers bred into them and that's why they point. The funny thing is I just stood there laughing at this idiot that sat there and watched my dog run. Funny if he believed half of the crap he was spewing he would have went to the judges and filed a complaint that my dog wasn't eligible because it wasn't a "real" lab. I've got FC's, a MH, and a HRCH in my dog ped and I didn't even buy a pointing lab. The first time I went to pheasant preserve he pointed and that pointed me down this path.
> 
> ...


Well said Socks. I generally stay out of these threads because they are totally pointless. It's laughable to call a lab that points not a "real lab." I love watching a dog work. Flushing lab, pointing lab, whatever. I also don't understand generalizing pointing labs as having less intelligence, trainability and drive; they're still labs. If you don't like pointing labs, don't get one. It's simple. I enjoy pointing labs, but I have no need to bash a flushing dog.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..


The Chessie above was a rescue. There is a duck laying down in the clump of grass. Dog was about 5 years old and had never seen a live bird before. Froze solid. Didn't know what to make of it. I was laughing with a friend about it. 

I think it's a natural tendency you can bring out in just about every dog. Look at the list of FC's which were mentioned above as being sires to all these pointing labs. If that many FC's (well known ones too) can produce pointing labs, a large family of pointing labs is out there and people never encouraged the "point" in the dogs. 

With that being said, if the point is not developing(lots of aforementioned Famous FC sires in the previous post) then it is not natural, it is a trained behavior.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..


Pot stirer! 

I wouldn't buy a silver lab, but's that more because of to few health clearances and too few titles. Besides, if I wanted a chocolate lab, I'd buy one.


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## misarskennels (Mar 25, 2010)

If you don't like this "pointing lab" thread don't read it ,and if you think there's no difference between a pup out of an fc compared to a pup out of a "certified pointer" try training them for a living! For some reason they both seem to cost about the same.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Paul "Happy" Gilmore
> 
> 
> > like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..


Expressing oneself tactfully is a fairly simple process if one filters comments with the definitions of bias and taunting. 

bias - an inclination or preference that influences judgment from being balanced or even-handed 

taunting - to reproach in a mocking, insulting, or contemptuous manner. (synonym – ridicule)

Then again sarcasm would become a lost art. 

Not “pointing” any fingers regards, Jim


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

I find this thread interesting to say the least. I was hoping somebody who breeds pointing labs might chime in. I've been reading quite a bit on pointing labs. I stand to be corrected on this - but, It's my understanding that the "pointing trait" is recessive, and it may or may not show up in a labrador. The "point" comes from the original development of the breed, and crossing with pointers. Because a labrador points or not, does not make it more or less a Labrador retriever.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

misarskennels said:


> If you don't like this "pointing lab" thread don't read it ,and if you think there's no difference between a pup out of an fc compared to a pup out of a "certified pointer" try training them for a living! For some reason they both seem to cost about the same.


Sounds like the pointing labs have a strong FC pedigree? Now you have me confused about certifiable pointing labs and the FC's who sired most of them. I shortened the previous post by Swack..

"There seems to be a belief among those who have posted that there is a difference between "pointing Labs" and AKC FT Labs. I'm not sure this is true.
grand-daughter of '72 & '75 NAFC and 3x CNFC River Oaks Corky. Those two dogs were arguably the dominate AKC FT dogs of the late '60's and early '70's. 
Wilderness Harley to Go who was a major producer of FT Labs. Harley produced 5 dogs who won a national title (NFC, NAFC, CNF, & CNAFC) qualified for 3 national opens and was a "finalist" in the 1989 National Amateur. Harley was bred on Super Chief and River Oaks Corky lines through his sire, FC-AFC Itchin' to Go and his dam, AFC Black Golds Candlewood Kate (Kate was by NAFC-FC River Oaks Rascal, a Corky son, out of FC-AFC Candlewoods Nellie-B-Good, a Soupy daughter). 

Ebonstar Lean Mac. Mac produced more AKC FC's than any sire in the history of the Labrador breed. I have also hunted with another grandson of Mac. Both were very strong pointing dogs."


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## SD Lab (Mar 14, 2003)

Great thread. Pointing labs are like a trend. Pointing labs, red labs, white labs, silver labs, labs that do hand stands, labs that do cart wheels, etc., etc., etc. People trying to make a quick buck and look cute. Drives me crazy. Most of those people have never seen a field trial either. They think following a dog in slow motion and stoping to watch their dog look at a pen raised bird is real fun. Overrated but hey to each its own.


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

I was thinking of getting a Silver, British, Pointing Lab.....


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

SD Lab said:


> Great thread. Pointing labs are like a trend. Pointing labs, red labs, white labs, silver labs, labs that do hand stands, labs that do cart wheels, etc., etc., etc. People trying to make a quick buck and look cute. Drives me crazy. Most of those people have never seen a field trial either. They think following a dog in slow motion and stoping to watch their dog look at a pen raised bird is real fun. Overrated but hey to each its own.


I know a breeder (notice I didn't say a PL breeder) that took a PL from thier breeding and put a QAA on it. Just sayin'

My dog doesn't do slow motion in the field, but like you said to each their own.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

misarskennels said:


> If you don't like this "pointing lab" thread don't read it ,and if you think there's no difference between a pup out of an fc compared to a pup out of a "certified pointer" try training them for a living! For some reason they both seem to cost about the same.


And people can choose to spend their money they way they want.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..
> 
> 
> The Chessie above was a rescue. There is a duck laying down in the clump of grass. Dog was about 5 years old and had never seen a live bird before. Froze solid. Didn't know what to make of it. I was laughing with a friend about it.
> ...


I need some clarification. Are you saying that since there aren't more dog showing point that some PL's are standing game and not pointing?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Socks said:


> I need some clarification. Are you saying that since there aren't more dog showing point that some PL's are standing game and not pointing?


No, not really saying that they are or aren't. Whay I was getting at is that with such a large mention of FC's in the PL pedigree's, why aren't more pups from all these breedings coming out with a staunch point at 8 weeks old like you get from a well bred GSP?


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## misarskennels (Mar 25, 2010)

Look I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a well bred lab that happens to point, my problem is with "breeder " who breeds his dog just because it points. There r plenty of great dogs that point but breeding two labs because they have a "staunch" point is bad voo-doo!


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I’ve never suggested that Labs that point are any less capable retrievers than any other Lab. I’ve even started to think it’s possible that the degree of control expected by the retriever games may be a factor in prompting the tendency. 

One thing you will never see from a spaniel trainer who is concerned w/ a bold flush is stopping a dog when he’s got a nose full of scent, but in the retriever world it’s common to see a handler stop his dog at the end of a blind just as the dog gets down wind of the bird so he can demonstrate control before he lets the dog pick it up. 

Recently, I’ve seen a number of Boykin spaniels that have been training for retriever hunt tests coming to do spaniel training and the tendency to “point” is very prevalent – maybe as many as 1/3 of them show at least a hesitation before flushing & some go full on staunch point. Unfortunately for them, in the spaniel games this is considered a disqualifying fault due to concern that any hesitation gives a running bird an advantage. 

When you look at the pointing tendency from a spaniel trainer’s perspective, it’s "a bug-not a feature" and yes, it shows up in even the best lines of Field Trial Springers & Cockers. Typically, it’s attributed to training error (ie. too early/harsh intro to steadiness or planting birds too tight in training, etc.) but regardless of the reason, a dog that shows any hesitation will not place in a trial thus reducing the likelihood of it being used as breeding stock for the future and yet in nearly every trial, I see a dog or 2 with some degree of hesitation.


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## P4PLABS (May 3, 2010)

So adding yet another positive quality to a breeding (staunch point) is a bad thing? Case in point I will be taking part in a breeding of a GMPR/HRCH/MH/(QAA) x GMPR/HRCH/(Derby Winner). Both dogs do indeed have staunch points, both dogs have proven themselves not only in HT but also FT. I can actually give to you a fairly extensive list of FC/AFC dogs that have been known to throw point. I personally do not own a FC or AFC and at this point in my life do not have the time or money (or willingness to get divorced) to begin that endeavor. However, a dog that NOT only has the ability to compete with the best-of-the-best and on top of that points my roosters so my 74-year old dad and 13-year old nephew can get a slight jump.... those dogs are special.
Everything being said, a PL is simply a Labrador Retriever that points upland birds naturally and just like any retriever (labrador or not) some dogs are stronger than others. As long as health clearances are in-line and the breeder has researched what he/she are trying to accomplish, have at it! Who knows, maybe the folks talking trash will indeed miss their call-back this spring while yet another PL moves on..... now THAT would be tough to swallow


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

P4PLABS said:


> So adding yet another positive quality to a breeding (staunch point) is a bad thing? Case in point I will be taking part in a breeding of a GMPR/HRCH/MH/(QAA) x GMPR/HRCH/(Derby Winner). Both dogs do indeed have staunch points, both dogs have proven themselves not only in HT but also FT. I can actually give to you a fairly extensive list of FC/AFC dogs that have been known to throw point. I personally do not own a FC or AFC and at this point in my life do not have the time or money (or willingness to get divorced) to begin that endeavor. However, a dog that NOT only has the ability to compete with the best-of-the-best and on top of that points my roosters so my 74-year old dad and 13-year old nephew can get a slight jump.... those dogs are special.
> Everything being said, a PL is simply a Labrador Retriever that points upland birds naturally and just like any retriever (labrador or not) some dogs are stronger than others. As long as health clearances are in-line and the breeder has researched what he/she are trying to accomplish, have at it! Who knows, maybe the folks talking trash will indeed miss their call-back this spring while yet another PL moves on..... now THAT would be tough to swallow


Nice post.


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## westksbowhunter (Jan 24, 2005)

Whether you like the pointing lines or not a true gentleman and avid hunter would appreciate the hard effort that goes into training any line or breed of dog. When you continuosly put down another persons dog to make you feel better about your own inadequacies shows a total lack of self respect and respect for others who enjoy a hunting dog. There is a lot of good information on this board and that is why I come here. There are a few elitest who tend to ruin every site. If your dog is FC AFC title then great. It it is a GMPR that is great too. I can say this, I never hear the lab pointing guys putting down the field trial fellows. But constantly here the field trial people slamming the pointing guys. Makes it hard to have respect for some of you. In the big picture, you are mere weak individuals who have no bearing on the thousands of bird my dog retrieves or the memories he makes with my family. I am a passionate hunter who enjoys a well trained labrador but this is my last post on this snobish forum.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

P4PLABS said:


> So adding yet another positive quality to a breeding (staunch point) is a bad thing?


But is it a positive quality? Is it a positive quality for the breed in general? I think that's the question. If we were talking spaniels as in Dave's post above, pointing would be the opposite of a positive quality. What is a lab supposed to do on upland? Some point, some flush. If we decide that some want pointing and some want flushing, do we end up with yet another division within the breed?


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I don't know whether I sould chime in or not BUT I purchased a really nice bred lab puppy from an FC father and a MH mother, Lean Mac was the grandsire. When I went to pick up the puppy the breeder took a duck wing on a fishing pole and just flipped it around and *several of the puppies pointed the duck wing*. This was a repeat breeding and a few from the first litter had really good derby careers. 

Lonnie Spann


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

flip wings around with a fishing pole and they'll start stopping after the wing has been yanked away from them 100 times. Not arguing, just sayin'... I see pointer people doing this all the time. Hold the wing in the air out of view and have them stop on scent and I start becoming impressed. That's a true, honest point of a well bred pointing dog. 

sight pointing objects which are enticing(wing on a fishing pole) is the beginning lesson that pouncing on an object will not be a reward. Stopping and waiting for the object reaps reward. This is repeated 10,000 times in dogs life and they become real staunch on point regardless of breeding.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Jerry Beil said:


> But is it a positive quality? Is it a positive quality for the breed in general? I think that's the question. If we were talking spaniels as in Dave's post above, pointing would be the opposite of a positive quality. What is a lab supposed to do on upland? Some point, some flush. If we decide that some want pointing and some want flushing, do we end up with yet another division within the breed?


This is a valid point. To those of us who prefer the pointing variety, it is something appreciated. It is much easier to train a pointing-tendency dog to flush than it is to train a flushing-tendency dog to point (not going to debate natural vs trained point, you know which is which if you see it), so you could "override" the point if it showed up in your flushing dog. That, in fact, is what has happened in the past, and is likely why there are so many FC sired PLs-no one competes with them for pointing, but several will point while hunting. 

Except for the HRC Upland test, there is no test for Labrador retrievers that includes a flushing component, and there are pointing labs who have earned that title. So does the pointing vs. flushing "division" really matter, if labs of both types can perform the retrieving skills needed for hunt tests or field trials?


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## P4PLABS (May 3, 2010)

Well for me it is a positive quality as pointed out. If we were to get extremely critical, Labradors should be helping retrieve fishing nets and never cross-bred with setters and pointers to help evolve the breed to what we see and love today. If you minimalize the question as I will, there is no division as there is no division between black, yellow or chocolate. This decision as you point out, is simply that, another decision for a puppy buyer to research and determine what is best for he/she. I have done a little research on conformance standards as well. Since roughly 50% of the FT/HT dogs would either be "severely penalized" or even "disqualified" at show level, should we again create a division there? My point is my labrador that happens to point in the upland can run an APLA event (which also requires the same level of retriver work as other venues) the last weekend in April and can certainly keep up with your labrador in any AKC/HRC HT scenario the first weekend in May. You would never know the difference, unless your dog didn't get a ribbon Saturday night at the banquet!


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> flip wings around with a fishing pole and they'll start stopping after the wing has been yanked away from them 100 times. Not arguing, just sayin'... I see pointer people doing this all the time. Hold the wing in the air out of view and have them stop on scent and I start becoming impressed. That's a true, honest point of a well bred pointing dog.
> 
> sight pointing objects which are enticing(wing on a fishing pole) is the beginning lesson that pouncing on an object will not be a reward. Stopping and waiting for the object reaps reward. This is repeated 10,000 times in dogs life and they become real staunch on point regardless of breeding.


Have you ever hunted with a pointing lab? Did it find and point birds in cover? I am not that far away-do you need to see one do that? Mine would be more likely to flush a visible bird than point it-if he can see it, he can retrieve it, or so he thinks  Or do you just like to stir the pot on these threads?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

pupaloo said:


> This is a valid point. To those of us who prefer the pointing variety, it is something appreciated. It is much easier to train a pointing-tendency dog to flush than it is to train a flushing-tendency dog to point (not going to debate natural vs trained point, you know which is which if you see it), so you could "override" the point if it showed up in your flushing dog. That, in fact, is what has happened in the past, and is likely why there are so many FC sired PLs-no one competes with them for pointing, but several will point while hunting.
> 
> Except for the HRC Upland test, there is no test for Labrador retrievers that includes a flushing component, and there are pointing labs who have earned that title. So does the pointing vs. flushing "division" really matter, if labs of both types can perform the retrieving skills needed for hunt tests or field trials?


I think a lot of people are fooled. A "point" in a lab can be and usually is the same intense look of a dog who loves birds. A lab point looks just as intense as a lab watching a pheasant flier. They want it bad. I've seen labs point. They can be intense looking just like when the flier goes down in the first series of the day. 

When a real pointing breed points, it's like they just had an seizure of which they had no control.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The versatility of the lab is almost par to none, for those who want them hold pause or those who want to them to boldly flush, natural inclination or not. Trainabilty, tractablity, and intelligence of is something to strive for. A lab with a point still needs to be steadied and a flushing lab still needs to be taught to hold a flush with-in gun range. If I can't train any lab to pause-point, flush or even throw double-back flip, turn 3 circles, and bark, when he comes upon a bird. He's just not smart enough for me, the ability to learn and adapt needs to be in the blood, to be considered a Lab, whether were training for upland, duck, SAR, OB, Agility, detection, or tap-dancin in the rose Parade.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Last time I counted there were 127 dogs within a three black radius of my house. The four of mine are titled (SH or better). The Lab on the corner has a JH title. The rest are pets and most are not Labs. 



> What is a lab supposed to do on upland? Some point, some flush.


The fact is a very high percentage of most Labs will never do either and they are purebreds. 



> If we decide that some want pointing and some want flushing, do we end up with yet another division within the breed?


Majority usually rules...so if you are "we" you are probably safe from ever having to make that decision. So what is your point? 

I have a close training partner that has three MH dogs. The youngest is a smallish female by an FC and out of a three time Master National bitch. Kate just recently had a litter of pups sired by an FC. My parterner was looking for a smaller stud because her dogs also run agility. Anne's dogs are excellent competitors in agility. For anyone who understands agility, MACH titles are the norm. 

Some want field trials, some want hunt tests, some work in other competitions (agility, rally, OB, dock diving, etc), some are into very special skill programs (detection, support), some want show, some want size, some just want to hunt (mostly flush and some point), some are into color and the great, vast majority just want a dog to walk around the block. 

The sky is not falling because someone enjoys the fact that their Lab points (for whatever reason). At times I have a difficult time trying to understand the never ending process of telling *strangers* they are wrong for making personal choices that they feel good about.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

P4PLABS said:


> I have done a little research on conformance standards as well. Since roughly 50% of the FT/HT dogs would either be "severely penalized" or even "disqualified" at show level, should we again create a division there? My point is my labrador that happens to point in the upland can run an APLA event (which also requires the same level of retriver work as other venues) the last weekend in April and can certainly keep up with your labrador in any AKC/HRC HT scenario the first weekend in May. You would never know the difference, unless your dog didn't get a ribbon Saturday night at the banquet!


You seem like you're trying to pick a fight. 

On Conformation, it should be against the breed standard. There is already a divide there between show and field, and that's not good for the breed. Another division - pointing or flushing is probably also not good for the breed, but maybe not. I don't know. I think conformation should have a place in the field, unfortunately the show dogs that are put up are generally not built to do the work that is described in the breed standard, which in turn allows the FT folks to completely ignore the standard as long as the dog can do the work. It would be better if the ring and the field dogs were in sync.

I don't know anything much about APLA events. I imagine they'd probably be fun. I don't know that they're just as challenging on the retrieving portion as the hunting retrieving tests. I don't know how you'd work in the upland portion as an add on to say a MH test and be able to fit it all in, but like I said, I don't know enough to dispute what you say there. I do know that one of the nicest hunt test dogs I've ever seen is a pointing lab that I would love to have a pup out of (because of the non pointing qualities of the dog - I don't really have a need of an upland dog at this point).

You've never seen my dog, so it's just argumentative for you to claim that your dog could keep up with mine in any AKC/HRC HT scenario. There's no way for you to have any knowledge about that. My dog could be a 140lb couch potato, or a closet FC. I never said your dog wasn't as good as another dog etc.. 


I'm not against labs that point, or labs that flush. I just don't think it's the general consensus that a pointing lab is better than a non pointing lab - or, that it may not be generally seen as a positive for the breed. If I was to guess, among field working labs (those that hunt, hunt test, or field trial) the breakdown would be 1 - probably over 50% - don't have a preference if the lab flushes or points, and would not consider either a trait to be bred for. 2. Of those that care, I'd guess the edge would be those that prefer pointing over flushing, but that might be close. The bottom line to me is that to the extent that you can breed for the characteristics needed in a good working retrieving dog consistent with the standard, and also breed for pointing or flushing it's probably OK. Same as yellow, black, chocolate as you said. But if you begin to put pointing or flushing as primary considerations in your breeding program, that's where there's a danger.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> No, not really saying that they are or aren't. Whay I was getting at is that with such a large mention of FC's in the PL pedigree's, why aren't more pups from all these breedings coming out with a staunch point at 8 weeks old like you get from a well bred GSP?


That's a good question and I've seen video of a 8 week old PL pointing a planted bird. I would also think that most FC to FC breeding go to people who are focused on FT's and/or hunt tests with waterfowl hunting after that. I'm not sure how many people who go for that type of breeding hunt upland and so I think that intro to early planted upland birds don't happen to see if the dog would point. I'm also of the opinion (which don't amount to a hill of beans) that the pointing labs point are not just as all consuming as the english pointer's point. I don't know if I'm making myself clear? I've got a friend that has a eng. pointer and she told me that his brain just turns off on point. My dog points, is steady to wing and shot, but he'll relocate without me telling him to. Is this good or bad? I don't know, but it works for me.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

misarskennels said:


> Look I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a well bred lab that happens to point, my problem is with "breeder " who breeds his dog just because it points. There r plenty of great dogs that point but breeding two labs because they have a "staunch" point is bad voo-doo!


Ah..but you see when I look in the future for a PL I want the sire and dam to point AND be able to do the same work as a HRCH and/or MH. The point is part of the package, not the package.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

westksbowhunter said:


> Whether you like the pointing lines or not a true gentleman and avid hunter would appreciate the hard effort that goes into training any line or breed of dog. When you continuosly put down another persons dog to make you feel better about your own inadequacies shows a total lack of self respect and respect for others who enjoy a hunting dog. There is a lot of good information on this board and that is why I come here. There are a few elitest who tend to ruin every site. If your dog is FC AFC title then great. It it is a GMPR that is great too. I can say this, I never hear the lab pointing guys putting down the field trial fellows. But constantly here the field trial people slamming the pointing guys. Makes it hard to have respect for some of you. In the big picture, you are mere weak individuals who have no bearing on the thousands of bird my dog retrieves or the memories he makes with my family. I am a passionate hunter who enjoys a well trained labrador but this is my last post on this snobish forum.


Don't let it get under your skin and don't leave.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Jerry Beil said:


> But is it a positive quality? Is it a positive quality for the breed in general? I think that's the question. If we were talking spaniels as in Dave's post above, pointing would be the opposite of a positive quality. What is a lab supposed to do on upland? Some point, some flush. If we decide that some want pointing and some want flushing, do we end up with yet another division within the breed?


I would contend that your question raised his hackles because it can be read as that PL's are a detriment to the lab breed.



Jerry Beil said:


> You seem like you're trying to pick a fight.
> 
> On Conformation, it should be against the breed standard. There is already a divide there between show and field, and that's not good for the breed. Another division - pointing or flushing is probably also not good for the breed, but maybe not. I don't know. I think conformation should have a place in the field, unfortunately the show dogs that are put up are generally not built to do the work that is described in the breed standard, which in turn allows the FT folks to completely ignore the standard as long as the dog can do the work. It would be better if the ring and the field dogs were in sync.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of PL's people get upset because the people who don't like PL's start in right away by implying that a PL in wrong or inferior. They're just labs that point instead of flush. I agree if a breeder only breeds for pointing only that's probably a bad thing, but I wouldn't want a pup from a breeder like that.

As for conformation I'll consider it in the FT and HT area as soon as the bench people produce dogs that can actually do the work the breed was intended to do.

The APLA is a good organization in my opinion. What I've found is that what makes the APLA tests hard is going from the control required for retrieving to going straight to the upland where you let loose the reins and let them hunt, but walk that edge of lose of control. Each test is a day long and it can be a very long day. It's hard to keep together sometimes.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

My only wish would be that the Golden people had thought of this first..........


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I think a lot of people are fooled. A "point" in a lab can be and usually is the same intense look of a dog who loves birds. A lab point looks just as intense as a lab watching a pheasant flier. They want it bad. I've seen labs point. They can be intense looking just like when the flier goes down in the first series of the day.
> 
> When a real pointing breed points, it's like they just had an seizure of which they had no control.


I think it is easy to fake a pointing picture. And you can train a dog to "stand game"-but if you know what a "real" point looks like, you can tell. PLs are not supposed to be a separate, pointing breed, They are labs that point instead of flush. But that does not mean they are not really pointing. A dog running full out that slams on the brakes, does a 180 and freezes, tail out and nose lined on a bird is pointing. You wouldn't question that point if is was a "real pointing breed"-why is it different if the dog that does it is a lab?


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## maddog58 (Aug 6, 2008)

Socks said:


> I know a breeder (notice I didn't say a PL breeder) that took a PL from thier breeding and put a QAA on it. Just sayin'
> 
> My dog doesn't do slow motion in the field, but like you said to each their own.


Rooster Smasher I'M guessing. My pups sire. She is a monster on birds and throws a mean point. And definently isn't scared of birds lol. No slow motion to this pup either.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

westksbowhunter said:


> But constantly here the field trial people slamming the pointing guys. Makes it hard to have respect for some of you.


I have read this entire thread. Some are for pointing labs, some are not. This forum is a place to exchange information and express opinions. I don't recognize the names of most posters. Usually, I can't tell from their posts which ones were posted by "field trial people" and which were not. 

Westksbowhunter, there are many on this forum who are avid field trialers. They take time to post with helpful information and opinion. It is a dis-service to use a broad brush and label those who run field trials as snobs. 

Helen


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

helencalif said:


> I have read this entire thread. Some are for pointing labs, some are not. This forum is a place to exchange information and express opinions. I don't recognize the names of most posters. Usually, I can't tell from their posts which ones were posted by "field trial people" and which were not.
> 
> Westksbowhunter, there are many on this forum who are avid field trialers. They take time to post with helpful information and opinion. It is a dis-service to use a broad brush and label those who run field trials as snobs.
> 
> Helen


Actually I can see where he'd get that idea. Sometimes the FT attitude can come across here as a little superior. Just my opinion, nothing more


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## Fran Seagren (Jan 21, 2013)

Dave Flint said:


> There are a lot of reasons for a steady upland dog.
> • It’s safer.
> • It doesn’t distract the shooter.
> • It doesn’t block the shot on a low flying bird.
> ...


EXACTLY why I train my labs to sit to the flush. Not that they always do it - but that's the rule and they get corrected when they break it. Not once have we lost a rooster that only had a broken wing, etc. due to having the dog wait to be sent. But, I've had to pull up on low-flying birds(roosters and quail) because my dog "broke the rule." You can send them before the bird hits the ground. My old lab (now gone) would wait under some high flying roosters as they fell. Even though I didn't let him go until I knew the bird was hit.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Socks said:


> I would contend that your question raised his hackles because it can be read as that PL's are a detriment to the lab breed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Socks,

I can tell you "have a dog in the fight" based on your signature line and the fact that you've replied to folks on this thread three at a time! So with that said, be assured I'm not picking on you. I could easily have replied to a dozen different posters since my early post on this thread.

For those who are keeping score, I have a bitch out of a GMPR who I'm planning to breed to another GMPR. However, let me go on to say that I didn't select these dogs based on their "pointing Lab" status. Yes, I'm an upland hunter. No, I don't run APLA tests. Yes, it's OK if my dogs point. No, I don't train them to point and it doesn't bother me if they don't. My bitch's sire is also a MH and the dog I'd like to breed her to is a MH, HRCH, and QAA. They have proven themselves capable in traditional retriever testing.

So, besides the fact that they are titled and have their health clearances, why did I select them to be in my breeding program if not for their pointing ability? *Because they meet my standards for conformation!*

Why the heck would you suggest that you won't consider conformation in field bred Labs until the show breeders get the field work right!?!? Do you think "proper conformation" means a Lab should look like many of the show Labs? Not the way I interpret the standard! Just because the show breeders have lost their way doesn't mean we shouldn't try to produce a Lab that meets the standard as we understand it! Actually, the fact that they may have it wrong makes it even more imperative that we get it right!!! You claim you want to insure that the pointing Lab has all of the traditional working talents that "standard" retrievers do. Why not go all out and try to breed them to look like the standard describes a Labrador should look as well? 

I was with you up until you made the statement I emboldened in your quote above. I think you might want to rethink that comment!

Swack

P.S. Socks, If I were a betting man, I'd bet the dog in your avatar is a son or grandson of Lean Mac. I had a grandson of Mac who loves to lay on his back like that and get a belly rub!


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Jerry Beil said:


> On Conformation, it should be against the breed standard. There is already a divide there between show and field, and that's not good for the breed. Another division - pointing or flushing is probably also not good for the breed, but maybe not. I don't know. * I think conformation should have a place in the field, *unfortunately the show dogs that are put up are generally not built to do the work that is described in the breed standard, which in turn allows the FT folks to completely ignore the standard as long as the dog can do the work. It would be better if the ring and the field dogs were in sync.


I agree! See my post above.

Swack


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Lonnie Spann said:


> I don't know whether I sould chime in or not BUT I purchased a really nice bred lab puppy from an FC father and a MH mother, Lean Mac was the grandsire. When I went to pick up the puppy the breeder took a duck wing on a fishing pole and just flipped it around and *several of the puppies pointed the duck wing*. This was a repeat breeding and a few from the first litter had really good derby careers.
> 
> Lonnie Spann


Lonnie,

Are you insinuating that Lean Mac may have had some English Pointer in his background!?!?

Swack


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Many bench labs don't fit within the written standard either. Most are too heavy, many are too short.


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## Fran Seagren (Jan 21, 2013)

A statement from Pupaloo in a previous post: "To me, it is a simple matter of preference-do you want a pointer or a flusher?"

Will I start another heated discussion if I answered with, "Can't we have both without people getting mad about it?" 

I'm a firm believer that it's OK to have whatever breed of dog you prefer. And, it's OK to train them to what ever level you want. It's not OK to tell others their choice sucks. Even if that's what you really think - unless that person is a really good friend - or maybe not even then. 

We have two labs, two red (Irish) setters, and one brittany. The labs flush and the setters and brit point. We have a ton of fun hunting with these guys. I hated it when the season ended and used to get really bitchy about it - many years ago. So, I started training them for hunt tests and field trials in the off season. Even though there are lots of people more successful than I am in both hunting and competitions. That's OK. I'm having a good time year-round.

It would be great if we could hear the different opinions and experiences without the nasty stuff.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

But can you train them to seat on a duck??? 



Hunt'EmUp said:


> The versatility of the lab is almost par to none, for those who want them hold pause or those who want to them to boldly flush, natural inclination or not. Trainabilty, tractablity, and intelligence of is something to strive for. A lab with a point still needs to be steadied and a flushing lab still needs to be taught to hold a flush with-in gun range. If I can't train any lab to pause-point, flush or even throw double-back flip, turn 3 circles, and bark, when he comes upon a bird. He's just not smart enough for me, the ability to learn and adapt needs to be in the blood, to be considered a Lab, whether were training for upland, duck, SAR, OB, Agility, detection, or tap-dancin in the rose Parade.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Swack said:


> Socks,
> 
> I can tell you "have a dog in the fight" based on your signature line and the fact that you've replied to folks on this thread three at a time! So with that said, be assured I'm not picking on you. I could easily have replied to a dozen different posters since my early post on this thread.
> 
> ...


Hehe yeah I gues I do have a dog in this fight.  No worries about me thinking you're picking on me. I actually think this thread has gone in a decent direction. I chalk it up to people are passionate about their dogs and that can be a good thing. I maybe wasn't that clear on my conformation comment. I've got some friends that have 3 bench/show labs. Their breeder has actually placed in some shows with her line. I really like those dogs, but I would be shocked if they could hunt more than 45 min in the upland and be able to do a long land or water blind because of their conformation. When my dog is next to them they look like two different types of dogs. Now based on old time photos of some of the old FC and show champs from way back that have seen posted on here I think my dog looks more like those dogs than my friends show dogs. Yes I think conformation is important, but my comment was more directed at what is winning at shows now vs the typical field bred conformation that I've seen. Do I really know what I'm talking about? Nope, it's just my views and opinion.

Yep he's got Lean Mac in him, but he's a great grandson. The lady that owned his sire said that Bubba slept the same way.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> But can you train them to seat on a duck???


One of these days I'll find the video of my dog doing this.


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## cubdriver (Jan 1, 2006)

Swack, you are right on! I had a female whose grandmother was line bred River Oaks Corky. When I got her I knew nothing about training retrievers and totally trained her myself. We learned, unlearned and learned together on our journey together. She ended up with 2 open 2nds and 2 amateur 2nds and other places. Although some VERY knowledgeable (national finishers) couldn't see how she didn't win on at least one occasion, she never got her first place. She went six for six in attaining her MH title. I truly don't believe that I have ever seen a lab who marked better than she did. On more than one occasion on a retired gun in a FT, she ran right at an obstacle, leaped it, turned 90 degrees in the air and picked up the bird. She pointed the first WILD rooster she ever encountered at 5 months of age. On one trip in ND on public land in snow covered CRP she pointed 28 times in one day. Many hens, but others were roosters, as we made the long trek back to the truck with my limit. Nobody who didn't see her hunt pheasants, or even ruffed grouse, would have had a clue that she pointed. I then bred her to another pointing lab who had his AFC and was 1/2 point short of his FC when he had an injury. Her daughters pointed. The one I kept won 3 Q's out of five (two at her last double header), placed in her other two attempts, and went 3 for 3 toward her MH, before I quit running MH. She became very hard of hearing at an extremely young age, so I couldn't follow through in field trials. I will be looking for another pointing lab, who can do all of the difficult retriever work , both in competition and hunting for waterfowl and upland birds. People who fear pointing in their FT dogs just don't understand that that trait only shows up on an upland hunt when they are quartering in front of a hunter. I definitely believe that it is in MANY great FT lines.


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## bigylwdog (Jun 25, 2011)

I have had labs that point naturally. They are the ultimate dog for upland hunting. No running in the field after a flusher. Of course the lab is a better retriever than a setter or pointer. The style of point isn't as good as the setters I used to run. But the pointing lab works closer so it is easier to get over to the dog to shoot the bird. With setters I always flushed the bird. With labs I give the command to flush. That way everything about the hunt works in my favour.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I guess I’m never going to understand why someone would want to hunt pheasants w/ a pointing dog. Pheasants and flushing dogs were made for each other.

On the other hand, I would like to hear from anyone who has tried hunting grouse w/ a pointing Lab. I’ve used both Setters & Springers and it seems like when I’ve got a Setter in front of me, I wish I had a flusher to get in there so I could stay outside & shoot. When I use a Springer (or retriever), I hear a lot more flushes than I ever see. 

A close working dog that would point until sent in for the flush & could be trusted to find everything that I do manage to scratch down sounds like a pretty nice idea. Anyone got experience w/ a PL on Grouse?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> I guess I’m never going to understand why someone would want to hunt pheasants w/ a pointing dog. Pheasants and flushing dogs were made for each other.
> 
> On the other hand, I would like to hear from anyone who has tried hunting grouse w/ a pointing Lab. I’ve used both Setters & Springers and it seems like when I’ve got a Setter in front of me, I wish I had a flusher to get in there so I could stay outside & shoot. When I use a Springer (or retriever), I hear a lot more flushes than I ever see.
> 
> A close working dog that would point until sent in for the flush & could be trusted to find everything that I do manage to scratch down sounds like a pretty nice idea. Anyone got experience w/ a PL on Grouse?


There was a fellow here on Long Island who had German shorthaired pointers. He taught his dogs to flush the bird on command after pointing them. I haven't met anyone else who does this. Interesting guy, he and his wife hunted together, carried Parkers.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

gdgnyc said:


> There was a fellow here on Long Island who had German shorthaired pointers. He taught his dogs to flush the bird on command after pointing them. I haven't met anyone else who does this. Interesting guy, he and his wife hunted together, carried Parkers.



Not indifferent for allowing your dog to relocate on command. Depends upon how you train it.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> There was a fellow here on Long Island who had German shorthaired pointers. He taught his dogs to flush the bird on command after pointing them. I haven't met anyone else who does this. Interesting guy, he and his wife hunted together, carried Parkers.


I've hunted w/ a few nice GSPs. They were very good retrievers compared to other pointing dogs but many times when I've hit grouse, it was just a "poke & pull" shot & I had no idea if I'd hit it through the trees until the dog came back w/ it. Public land grouse hunting is challenging enough that I can't abide losing a bird hence the interest in a Lab to find them.

I'll bet a good PL would be a good fit.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

I've hunted grouse with a Lab for years...working on dog #2.
The secrete is to have the dog work close in range, 10 yards max in the thick stuff.
I know an Englisg Setter is the classic grouse dog, I just don't see to many grouse staying put with a dog's nose a couple feet away on point around here. Up north maybe, they are fools hens up there. Down here, they can be very quick to flush. 
From my perpective, the grouse focus on escaping the dog and have no clue about the hunter thus providing some shooting opportunities that you might not get otherwise. ie Flush away from dog, up a tree or towards the hunter. 
This is especially true if you can work your dog on one side of cover/edge while you hunt the other side. 
Range control is the key.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Scum Frog said:


> From my perpective, the grouse focus on escaping the dog and have no clue about the hunter thus providing some shooting opportunities that you might not get otherwise. ie Flush away from dog, up a tree or towards the hunter.


I don't know if I believe that. I swear they wait until I reach down to pick up my hat when it gets knocked off.  

Then there was the time I leaned my gun against a tree to take a leak, good thing my boots are waterproof I guess....


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

Dave Flint said:


> I don't know if I believe that. I swear they wait until I reach down to pick up my hat when it gets knocked off.
> 
> Then there was the time I leaned my gun against a tree to take a leak, good thing my boots are waterproof I guess....


I see your point...I did almost step on one.....scared the crap out of me. It actually hit my shotgun barrel as it flushed.....I never got a shot off LOL
I have a couple deer stories like that...gun down, attending to nature LOL


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> I don't know if I believe that. I swear they wait until I reach down to pick up my hat when it gets knocked off.
> 
> Then there was the time I leaned my gun against a tree to take a leak, good thing my boots are waterproof I guess....


Or how about when you are hunting with a friend and you stop a second to have some water, have a word with your friend and then up go a pair causing you to cuss....


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

"I would like to hear from anyone who has tried hunting grouse w/ a pointing Lab. I’ve used both Setters & Springers and it seems like when I’ve got a Setter in front of me, I wish I had a flusher to get in there so I could stay outside & shoot"
I do, and that is the main bird we hunt here in NW MI. Very skittish birds, they see lots of pressure, but I stopped posting on these threads a long time ago. Dave if you really would like to hear about PLs hunting ruffed grouse PM me.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Paco said:


> "I would like to hear from anyone who has tried hunting grouse w/ a pointing Lab. I’ve used both Setters & Springers and it seems like when I’ve got a Setter in front of me, I wish I had a flusher to get in there so I could stay outside & shoot"
> I do, and that is the main bird we hunt here in NW MI. Very skittish birds, they see lots of pressure, but I stopped posting on these threads a long time ago. Dave if you really would like to hear about PLs hunting ruffed grouse PM me.


I was hoping you'd see the PL on grouse question.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

Paco said:


> "if you really would like to hear about PLs hunting ruffed grouse PM me.


I do..please post away. Any grouse talk is good talk!!!!


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

I all honesty it's very hard to get anything done with dial-up, even here. That and I am puter challenged, but not so on PLs or being a dedicated to them and hunting grouse with them.


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## Fran Seagren (Jan 21, 2013)

Dave Flint said:


> I guess I’m never going to understand why someone would want to hunt pheasants w/ a pointing dog. Pheasants and flushing dogs were made for each other.
> 
> We hunt both our labs and our "pointy" dogs on pheasants as well as other upland birds. Up until last season, the labs usually put up more pheasants than the pointy guys. But, it wasn't ever a big difference. It just depends on the terrain we are hunting. As I'm sure everyone on this forum that hunts wild pheasants already knows - ditch dragons are clever bastards that like the nastiest cover they can find. That's why a flushing dog "usually" is the first choice. Most roosters won't hold for a point once the season is well underway and the birds know the game. But last season, my red setter Robert pointed and held more pheasants than my lab, Sarge, who is a super-duper pheasant dog.
> 
> ...


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks for the story. Please tell me that you hit at least one of those roosters. Robert deserved it.


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