# golden retrievers at stud



## goldensrock

I have a 6 yr old golden bitch along the Mioak's line. She & I have accomplished a MH & WCX. She's a great marker, hits the H2O strong, doesn't quit. I'm looking for a darker red stud - my question is, do I look for an FC AFC etc etc or ?
I had a list of FC AFC, AFTCH etc, but was asked why only titled studs.
My response was why not?
I've got an MH, why wouldn't I look to improve the line?

Any and all comments are welcome - I'm a novice at this!


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## Miriam Wade

The first dog that comes to mind when you mention dark red is Steve Low's Cody. Such a nice, nice dog. The "2 Jake's" too are wonderful dogs. I hope he doesn't string me up for suggesting this, but the authority (in my book) is Jim Pickering. He really knows Golden lines & is unbiased.

M


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## Baby Duck

I would seriously look at Mike and Val Ducross's male "PUSH" he is by far the nicest running golden I have ever seen. He is not what you would call a dark golden but is a medium for sure. With the year he had in 05 he is hard to beat

Mike LaFond
Baby Duck Labradors


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## goldensrock

I really appreciate the feedback!!!

Unfortunately Push is too close - I've checked!
His sire is my bitch's grandsire.

If you have more suggestions - I'm all ears!


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## goldendog

Goldensrock,

Post up a copy of pedigree for us to see. Would be easier to make suggestions.


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## goldensrock

Sorry - how about a link?

Mioak's Copper MH WCX 
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=116012


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## Jim Pickering

Miriam Wade said:


> I hope he doesn't string me up for suggesting this, but the authority (in my book) is Jim Pickering. He really knows Golden lines & is unbiased.
> M


I might agree with you if I could remember everything that Melanie has told me about Goldens, but age and the booze have killed too many of the remember cells.

*goldensrock wrote*


> I have a 5 1/2 yr old golden bitch along the Mioak's line.
> Unfortunately Push is too close - I've checked!
> His sire is my bitch's grandsire.


Interesting. Would love to see the pedigree.


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## Gerard Rozas

What about AFC Steeple Hill Ranger?

He won an big Open I judged last year - he is a fantasic animal.


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## D Osborn

I would look at Whistler's brother Phoenix. 
Lots of what is the the Jake's, but closer to Bingo, who I think contributed greatly to these lines-she was suppose to be an awesome dog, and you want the bitch lines to be stronger-also they are both a good size. Their father was one of the nicest goldens ever. Both are also great water dogs.

http://www.k9data.com/siblings.asp?ID=28702

Jackie has been using him a good amount, and I have seen some nice puppies. Both boys are over 9 with no health problems. Both seem to be fertile since I have 11 Whistler puppies here  . He is a red dog, as is Whistler, and structurally they are as good as they get-great movement, great with puppies and kids and other dogs. Neither are for the average pet owner
as they are a lot of dog.

Another one would be Ranger.


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## goldensrock

And where is this superdog?

I'm in Wisconsin and plan on taking a road trip!


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## D Osborn

Chances are that both Ranger and Phoenix are in Florida.


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## Kris Hunt

Judy Rasmusson owns Steephill Ranger, and I agree with Gerard, he is AWESOME! When that dog hits the water, he body surfs  I don't know his pedigree though. Karl Gunzer had him for awhile, but he may be back with Judy now. Judy also owns another very nice younger golden that is on his way to being titled, Topbrass Band On the Run - Bandy. I think I like Bandy a little better. Ranger Both are dark red and hard charging, but not as dark as Steve Lowes dog Cody, who is also very nice. Cody absolutely excels in the water. Cody came from hunt tests to a 3rd in a Qualifying with not a whole lot of field trial training. Steve posts here from time to time, he can fill in the details. I have a phone number for Judy, pm me if you are interested.

Kris Hunt


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## Kris Hunt

this is Judy Rasmusson and Bandy at a trial in Billings MT last fall.

Kris


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## Angie B

Ask Randy or Kip...... They'll point you in the right direction! :wink: 

Angie


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## stevelow

You have the same predicament as many Golden breeders. There are only 5 living FCs, and 4 are very closely related to each other, and to your bitch. Many AFCs are also. Beau, Rugby, and Push are all by Bro. Bro is sired by Duncan, as are Eli and Boomer. Bart is by Luke from Bro's full sister.

Steeple Hill Ranger is in Florida with Judy Rasmussen. Beau is in Texas with Karl Gunzer.

Cody is also in Texas with me. He recently produced a very nice litter from Jeff Buikema's Brooke, an Eli daughter and a full sister to the two Jakes. I have a pup from that litter. Cody has 22 Master passes, and, in his very recent FT career, he has three thirds and three Jams in 8 starts.


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## Suzanne Burr

These days it can be difficult to find a good stud that isn't closely related to your bitch. However, it can be done. A good many of the goldens that are doing well today go back to Duncan (via Cotton x Nell) through Bro and Luke (Apache x Sprite). I owned Nell and never repeated a breeding with her because I was trying to increase the gene pool a little. Apache was owned by my husband and before 'Pache was sold because of our divorce, he was bred to Sprite. That breeding was an outcross that really worked. 
I recently bred my Amy (Bro x Butter) to the Gunn's Stanley Steamer. Again, pretty much an outcross.
I don't give a hoot nor a holler about color (although I love those dark red goldens), I've never bred to the 'dog du jour', and I breed what pleases me. I decided on Stanley when I saw him run as a youngster in his first trial. Thankfully everybody got their clearances and I got some terrific pups. They are now 8 mo. old and extremely watery, smart, good attitude, and very nice markers. They zipped through ff, have the single "T" down pat, are pretty darn steady for little ones, and are probably going to be the best litter I've ever bred. 
Stanley probably won't give you dark red dogs, (mine are pretty much medium red-gold) but I think you'd be very pleased with everything else.
The Gunns live in Canada, but will be in Northern California soon.
Suzanne Burr


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## Creek Retrievers

Contact Mickey Strandberg, your female's breeder. Mickey knows her dogs and can give you a better background on your pedigree. Mickey knows her lines and what works or doesn't work with them. PM me if you need her number.


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## Guest

Hi!

As I am Swedish I reacted to the name Mickey Strandberg, is this person from Sweden or "out of" Swedish descent?


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## JusticeDog

Linda H said:


> Hi!
> 
> As I am Swedish I reacted to the name Mickey Strandberg, is this person from Sweden or "out of" Swedish descent?


Wouldn't know...... does anyone know Mickey's maiden name?




Also, is there a reason no one has mentioned AFC Caymen's Rum Point Red (Snapper)? I profess to know nothing about golden pedigrees, but I do know that Kent Sweezy owns a young golden out of Snapper that jammed an open at MFTA at the age of 2. Skip was trained by Brian WHite. He then went to Farmer to prepare to run the AA stakes after that, and I just heard he is now with Robertson. I don't believe he has run an AA stake after Brian ran him.... just doing his prep work. But Skip was a hard charging dark red dog. Very sweet.


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## Andy

Before "Strandberg," Mickey was a "Kendrigan." I don't know if that was her maiden name though. Maybe one of the "older timers," like Mitch knows.
Andy


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## ErinsEdge

I think Linden Strandberg was Swedish.


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## larrynogaj

*stud*

Steve Low's post got my brain churning a little. If the live super-studs are limited, how about the dead ones with some frozen swimmers? A good friend of mine had his bitch AI from Cedarpond's RV and the pups are about a year old now. (9 of them) Food for thought.


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## labman52738

http://www.indiancreek-retrievers.com/

Ken Reed of Central Iowa has a very nice, dark red golden male, "Twister". He is MHR, MH, and QAA. Check out the website and see if this is something you might want. Good Luck.


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## Patti Maye

My friend Carol has a very nice Golden. He's Red, in fact his name is Red and is a Master Hunter. PM me and I'll be happy to give you her info.


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## Becky Mills

*golden studs*

Red will give you heart failure - that boy has some go! And I'm sure Carol is giving serious thought to sending him down to live with his Aunt Becky since I so kindly offered to take him off her hands at the specialty. 
But then Cody, the Two Jakes, Phoenix, and all the others mentioned are wonderful, too.
Love em all regards,
Becky


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## Bente

I would look at your female and do a serious assessment of her strengths and weaknesses in temperament (both in general and work ethic), health background and physical characteristics.

You would want to make sure the stud you pick compliments her and you're not doubling up on the same weaknesses. 

Ask yourself: Why you want to breed her? What are you trying to produce? 

I would also spend time on www.k9data.com and do research (look at the dogs in your girl's pedigree and see if there were pairings that seemed to work, to throw dogs who titled MH or better, assuming that's what you're looking for..).
I'd also use www.offa.org to check on the health of potential stud dogs and their offspring.

Then, if I were you, I'd PM some of the good Golden breeders on this forum.. it's a great resource and there are a lot of very good Golden breeders who post on here. 
Also, I'd contact Jackie Mertens (www.topbrass-retrievers.com). She has always replied to my emails asking questions. She's another great resource.


And now for the full disclosure: I have never bred a litter, so my advise is worth exactly what you paid for it. But, still, that's what I'd do.


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## Nels

*Golden Studs*

I have a puppy out of Cody and Brooke as well. I have seen Cody run at Hunt Tests and I was very impressed with him. One of the reasons I decided to purchase that puppy was because Cody is breed very differently than a lot of the other Top Golden Studs. 
This particular puppy out of Cody is very dark and he is probably one of the best puppies I have seen in quite some time. I would gladly take another puppy out of Cody, and this is coming from a Lab Guy.

Greg Nelson
Castile Creek Kennels


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## Guest

goldensrock said:


> I had a list of FC AFC, AFTCH etc, but was asked why only titled studs.


Since I was the one who asked this when you sent me a private inquiry, I can tell you why I proposed this question.



> My response was why not?


Alas, I did not receive this response. In fact, I did not receive a response at all, not even a quick thank you for my time. 



> I've got an MH, why wouldn't I look to improve the line?


*Because a title (FC and/or AFC) will not guarantee improvement of one's line.* There are many, many other things to research including health, longevity, temperament, depth of pedigree, breadth of success of siblings, parents, similar breedings, and characteristics that may or not be compatible with your bitch. And this just the short list.

Often times folks look for a titled dog for reasons that include the idealistic notion that a dog must be worth breeding to if it is a champion. Or believe a champion titled dog will sell more puppies. People making breeding decisions need to invest the time and effort to research their choices, be willing to have their potential breeding stock evaluated by an unbiased party for strengths and weaknesses, and be open to suggestions but keep in mind who is offering these suggestions and place value on them accordingly.

Our breed deserves at least that much.


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## sometimes a great notion

Semper Deuce Cooper. Portland Oregon. Has an Amateur win. his Grandsire is Bro. Owned by Lee Herskowitz


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## Randy Bohn

*s*

Lean Mac/ Lottie


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## fnsret

*Hijack*

Not to " Hijack" the thread, but what Golden breeding would you think would be the ideal breeding today for FT? I have a deposit of two litters and am just wondering.

Lee Nelson

Firemarks Prayer of Jabez**


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## Geoff Buckius

*Re: Hijack*



fnsret said:


> Not to " Hijack" the thread, but what Golden breeding would you think would be the ideal breeding today for FT? I have a deposit of two litters and am just wondering.


Lean Mac/ Lottie


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## goldensrock

Melanie,
I apoligize if I failed to thank you - I appreciate your feedback - and I didn't mean to be rude.

I am analyzing my girl and what's great about her and also what characteristics I'd like to improve upon. I've looked much further than the short list I passed on to you - and I understand that the title (FC and/or AFC) will not guarantee improvement of one's line, or that you are going to improve on the attributes you are shooting for, but if there are generations of proven dogs in the pedigree, I would have to believe there is a better chance.

It was Mickey Strandberg who told me when I got Copper that I should get into trials with this dog. Copper is the first dog I've ever competed with, she is a true partner, when she comes out of that crate - she recognizes immediately if we're training, competing, hunting or heading home to sit in front of the fireplace.

I'm looking for my best chance to have that success for a second and third and ? time!

I am no expert - so I'm turning to the experts.
I'm not a backyard breeder that believes I should breed the dog just to "have the experience", or to "make lots of money", or a number of other rediculous reasons.
It takes time & effort and it's a huge undertaking - I know that. 

Coming to this forum was extremely helpful - lots of resources.
I've not made any decisions, and will more than likely go back to Mickey when I finally do narrow it down. In the meantime I need to keep asking questions so I can make informed choices.

Regards,
Susan


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## Guest

I know absolutely nothing about Goldens in the US but perhaps some part English blood?


http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=115183


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## Jerry

Don't know about the breeding but I do know a good dog when I see one.

Check with Joseph McCann at Rock Erin Kennels and ask about "Red".

Jerry


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## WRL

What about a Vinny offspring? Looks like it would be an outcross for the most part.

WRL
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=21113


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## Guest

This is a good database (below). 

I wonder about the CHIC marked dogs, what does that mean? Is the recording of health examination results obligatory or up to choice in the States?


http://www.offa.org/


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## Greg Seddon

*Burns' Goden Phoenix MH QAA *

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=38000 *Here is his pedigree.* Has several AA points, I have trained with him and seen him run a few FT. Very Nice Dog. 



Won the Open at the 2005 Golden Retriever National Speciality 
http://www.pvgrc.org/national/index.htm  He is the second dog down on the left side.

Bev Burns and Phoenix Qualified for the 2004 National Amateur Retriever Championship and completed 6 series at Western New York. Here is another picture of Phoenix and Bev on her Clubs brag page they are the second picture from the bottom http://home.insight.rr.com/ovrc/ohiovalleybrags.html

I have seen two of Phoenix's pups he sired, one that Bev owns that made the Derby list last year and is QAA (very nice female, she can mark) and Richard and Connie Dresser have a male from the same breeding that is very nice as well that had a Derby Win.


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## golden boy 2

By no means that I am a Golden Retriever breeder expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and have seen Lacross Max Q Jake or aka Jake #2 win an Amatuer last yr. He was also on the derby list and at a very young age, when put on the stage of competing with the very best goldens in the nation at the specialty he placed in the open and finished the Amatuer. Not sure if any other males finished both stakes. He is young and has a ton of talent and he is out of Eli and we don't need to talk about what Eli has done in his career.

Being the president of Jake's fan club and it is a big one, you can see his pics in my avatar and below this post. Good Luck with your girls breeding.


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## Latisha

golden boy 2 said:


> By no means that I am a Golden Retriever breeder expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and have seen Lacross Max Q Jake or aka Jake #2 win an Amatuer last yr. He was also on the derby list and at a very young age, when put on the stage of competing with the very best goldens in the nation at the specialty he placed in the open and finished the Amatuer. Not sure if any other males finished both stakes. He is young and has a ton of talent and he is out of Eli and we don't need to talk about what Eli has done in his career.
> 
> Being the president of Jake's fan club and it is a big one, you can see his pics in my avatar and below this post. Good Luck with your girls breeding.


I've even seen Jake get wet. 

Latisha


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## golden boy 2

I have seen Jake get wet over a tennis ball, gosh MOST labs won't even do that!!!


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## bjlokey

Gerard Rozas said:


> What about AFC Steeple Hill Ranger?
> 
> He won an big Open I judged last year - he is a fantasic animal.


 :!: AMEN :!:


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## Carol

Patti and Becky, thanks for the nice words about Red and, sorry Becky, but I'm not ready to let him go just yet. Susan, here's the link to Red on K9Data.com.

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=103007

He has hip, elbow, heart, eye and thyroid clearances. If you'd like to see pictures of him, other than my avatar, pm me and I'll send you some. Red is currently in Texas but will be back in Wisconsin, mid April. He earned his MH last year and I plan to run him in Quals this year.


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## JusticeDog

Carol said:


> I plan to run him in Quals this year.


Check out the Q judges at Blackhawk........ unless you think they might be biased against a swamp collie (inside joke)!


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## cpayne

Jerry,

That dogs name would be RockErin Red River Ruckus. His pedigree would be http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=125212.

Chris


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## dr_dog_guy

What do you all think of Belvedere's Forever Rais'n Cain***? He finished the National a few years back, but I rarely hear of him. I have one of his sons who is a fabulous dog.


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## Creek Retrievers

PM sent


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## Carol

*CHIC marked dogs - OFA website*



LindaP said:


> This is a good database (below).
> 
> I wonder about the CHIC marked dogs, what does that mean? Is the recording of health examination results obligatory or up to choice in the States?
> 
> 
> http://www.offa.org/


Linda,
CHIC stands for Canine Health Information Center and is a centralized canine health database. Each breed club can submit a list of health clearances that they feel are important in making breeding decisions. The clearances are different for different breeds. For examle, Golden Retrievers must have hip, elbow, eye and heart clearances, Labs are only required to have hip, elbow and eye clearances and Dobermans must have hip, thyroid, vonWillebrands disease, working aptitude evaluation, and, optionally eye and heart clearances.
When a dog meets the health requirements for their breed, they are assigned a CHIC number and you'll see the CHIC designation on the OFA website.

If you want to know more about CHIC, here's their website:
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/

Hope this answers your question.


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## Becky Mills

Carol said:


> Patti and Becky, thanks for the nice words about Red and, sorry Becky, but I'm not ready to let him go just yet.


Aw, come on Carol. Be a sport. He'd have so much fun and think of all the things he'd learn from Hoss.
YEEHAW there he goes NO HERE regards,
Becky


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## Guest

*Re: CHIC marked dogs - OFA website*



Carol said:


> When a dog meets the health requirements for their breed, they are assigned a CHIC number and you'll see the CHIC designation on the OFA website.


This is a common misconception. A CHIC number does not mean a dog has passed all the clearances. It means the dog has been tested for the health issues the breed parent club has selected.

A dog can be dysplastic, have cataracts and a heart murmur and still be issued a CHIC number.


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## Carol

Melanie,
Thanks for correcting my statement. It is true that you get the CHIC number whether your results are normal or not. 

But isn't it true that OFA only publishes your test results if they are normal? If so, then a dog listed on OFA with a CHIC designation would likely not "be dysplastic, have cataracts and a heart murmur". :lol:


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## JusticeDog

Carol said:


> But isn't it true that OFA only publishes your test results if they are normal? If so, then a dog listed on OFA with a CHIC designation would likely not "be dysplastic, have cataracts and a heart murmur". :lol:


While it used to be true that OFA only reported normals, this is no longer the case. It is now an "open database" that allows the owner to choose if they wish to have results posted to the public, including the abnormal ones. So OFA will make public all results, normal or abnormal.


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## Gina

I am enjoying this thread immensely. Now I have a few questions of my own. I was told by a Golden person that the breed has a 3rd split with the performance Goldens. Is this true? - If so what is the difference between a field bred Golden and one that was bred for Obed/agility(but not conformation) in mind? I mean if the gene pool is so small would an outcross to a performance Golden really set you back that far? 

We had a Golden many years ago and he got cancer very young and we switched to Labs. (sorry)  

Gina


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## Jim Pickering

Part One:
In keeping with the instructions that one should think before posting, I have, in fact, contemplated this post for a couple days. While it may well offend some, I have also concluded that if the shoe fits he/she can wear it. 

Now that this thread seems to have pretty much run its course, I will add my humble opinion. By my count 15 people have recommended 19 different males as possible studs with several more, ?me too? posts. Only Bente and Melanie suggesting that education and information might be the correct course of action to find the right stud and I certainly agree. 

Otherwise, I understand that these suggestions are made based on performance in the field. Hopefully goldensrock, Susan and/or Mark Scholz, understand that it is incumbent on any breeder to do their homework. Performance is just one part of the equation for any breeding done to "improve the line". Therefore in an attempt to be helpful, I have taken the liberty to compile some stats form the various post to this thread. I have added two more boys that are obvious omissions and certainly should be considered by anyone looking for a Golden stud. The two are AFC Honey Creek?s Jammin? Jaco MH and AFC FTCH AFTCH TNT?s Explosion UD FDHF.

The Stats:
Total Number of Studs Suggested: 21
Living = 19
Deceased = 2
Shooting blanks = ??

Call Names: Jake, Jake, Phoenix, Vinny, Stanley, Bro, Snapper, RV, Twister, Cody, Cooper, Push, Ranger, Beau, Rugby, Band, Red, Red, Cain, Jaco and Boomer
Red = 2
Jake = 2
All Other = 1 each

Field Titles:
FC AFC = 0
FC = 2
AFC = 4
FTCH AFTCH = 3
*** = 10
MH = 4
Yes, I know the math does not compute. There is one MH *** and one AFC FTCH AFTCH.

Notable Sires:
Eli = 4
Bro = 3
Duncan = 2
All Other = 1 each

Notable Dams:
Tess = 2
Butter =2
All other = 1 each

Notable Grandsires:
Duncan = 8
Sprint = 5
Luke as in Glenda?s Luke = 5
Cotton = 3
Pardner = 3
Mighty Mo = 2
Gus = 2
All Other = 1 each

Notable Granddams:
Ready = 4
Razzl Dazzl = 3
Capi = 3
Jillie = 2
Torch = 2
Bingo = 2
Nell = 2
All Other = 1 each

Most prominent dog in the pedigree:
Holway Barty = 15
Smoke?n Red Devil (a Barty grandson) = 4
Mighty Mo (a product of a line breeding on Barty) = 1
Valentine Torch of Topbrass = 1

COI as calculated on k9data:
Highest =	18.3 =	Topbrass Band On The Run
Lowest =	1.23 =	Firemark?s Push Come To Shove
Next Lowest =	2.33 = Honey Creek?s Jammin? Jaco

See Part 2 to check your shoe size.


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## Jim Pickering

Part 2 ? Check Your Shoe Size

So I checked all 21 of the suggested Golden studs against the data at the OFA website.
OFA Hips = 21	
CERF = 21 
OFA Elbows = 14	
OFA Heart = 13	
Thyroid = 3 

This is somewhat better than I expected which was a pleasant surprise, but only three of the suggested studs (Beau Geste, Leinie?s Red, and Cody) have all five health clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics. Gold stars for these owners and for Beau I suspect the gold star would go to his original owners, Charles and Pat.

GRCA Code of Ethics
Hopefully everyone who owns a Golden Retriever is also a member of the GRCA and by definition has agreed to abide by the GRCA Code of Ethics. As stated in the preamble the Code is not intended to be punitive, but instead is intended to be informational. The code is a one-page document that is a quick read that would not hurt anyone who is contemplating breeding a dog of any breed. http://www.grca.org/codeofethics.pdf

Excerpts form the Code:
_RESPONSIBILITIES AS A BREEDER:
GRCA members who breed Golden Retrievers are encouraged to maintain the purpose of the breed and are expected to demonstrate honesty and fairness in dealing with other owners
and breeders, purchasers of dogs and the general public. *Owners of breeding animals shall provide appropriate documentation to all concerned regarding the health of dogs involved in a breeding or sale, including reports of examinations such as those applying to
hips and eyes. If any such examinations have not been performed on a dog, this should be stated. ?*

Animals selected for breeding should:
?..
(iii) possess the following examination reports in order to verify status concerning possible hip dysplasia, hereditary eye or cardiovascular
disease, and elbow dysplasia:
a. Hips ? appropriate report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals; PennHip; Ontario Veterinary College; BVA/KC Hip Score (Great Britain) or at least a written report from a board-certified veterinary radiologist (Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Radiologists).
b. Eyes ? appropriate report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) or from a BVA/KC approved ophthalmologist (Great Britain).
c. Hearts ? appropriate report from a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Medicine, Cardiology Specialty.
d. Elbows ? appropriate report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals; Institute for Genetic Disease Control in Animals; or at minimum a written report from a board-certified veterinary radiologist (Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Radiologists)._

That is not to say that a given dogs, male or female, should not be bred because it was unable to obtain a particular health clearance. Been there, done that. In retrospect, however, I suspect that such rationale has more to do with the owner?s ego and/or back account than the long-term health of their breed; ego in my case. Whatever one?s opinion as respects health clearances, I would hope that all involved in breeding, bitch and stud owner, care enough about the breed to be completely honest about the lack of clearances, and that does not mean that if they do not ask, no need to tell.

Sorry, just one of my pet peeves.


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## Guest

Jim Pickering said:


> have all five health clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics. Gold stars for these owners


Jim,

Small correction. GRCA clearances are still the "big four." Thyroid has not been added to the Code of Ethics yet. So I guess more of the suggested stud dogs will get gold stars.  

And at what point do we start factoring in temperament, allergies, epilepsy, longevity. The list goes on.

I do have one suggestion to anyone planning future litters. If you ask the stud dog owner what their dog's weaknesses are and they can't come up with anything....I don't care what shoe size you wear but you better turn around and start running!

Melanie


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## Goldenboy

Jim Pickering said:


> I have added two more boys that are obvious omissions and certainly should be considered by anyone looking for a Golden stud. The two are AFC Honey Creek?s Jammin? Jaco MH and AFC FTCH AFTCH TNT?s Explosion UD FDHF.


Jim,

Great compilation of statistics. I figured that people were just throwing out the names of any male golden that they had either seen in person or, maybe, heard about. If that's the case, just throwing out names, then there are (at least) two more notable omissions in FC/AFC Glenhaven Hntrs Mn Baronet (Bart) And Emberain Good Will Hunting (Will).

I agree with the need to thoroughly research any breeding choice and hope that temperament factors strongly in any decision.


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## stevelow

What a great thread! Melanie and Bente's advice on further research and info is very meaningful. Jim Pickering's post is tremendous. Jim, you must have spent many hours on this research. 

I have one additional concern. I could not find the Goldenrocks bitch, Mioak's Copper on the OFA web site. Finally I found her listed as Copper (Mioaks). She has "Good" hips, and her last CERF was in 2003. No elbow, cardiac or thyroid clearances. I would think that most of the stud owner's mentioned would want to see current CERF as well as cardiac and thyroid.

Early on Goldenrocks mentioned that he would not use Push due to a fairly close relationship. The same logic would eliminate two thirds of the 21 studs mentioned.


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## LH

I love this thread  very serious!

How common is thyroid problems in Goldens? What are the symtoms?


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## Val Ducross

Jim,

I don't think you should assume dogs without OFA numbers for thyroid, ie Push, Sprint and Jimmy, that they were not tested and determined normal by the veterinary standards at the time they were done. As Melanie stated the COE for the GRCA does not require a thyroid check. We test for thyroid on males we feel might be used extensively outside of our kennel, provide copies of the laboratory reports and allow breeders to determine for themselves if these tests are enough in their opinion. 

All three of these dogs were considered normal as per testing done at the time and by the lab reports. Thyroid is something one can check for, but I don't consider it a clearance like hips and elbows. 

Eyes can change from year to year so we are required to re-check eyes. Do all stud dog owners and breeders check eyes on their breeding stock every year or so? I don't know! When is an eye clearance really an eye clearance? I had a few dogs over the years who cleared until age 5, then had to be dropped from breeding due to cataracts. Sprint's last eye check was at 15. The opthalmologist I used had never examined a dog of this age before and was amazed at how perfect his retinas were. He had the beginnings of old age cataracts at that point, but the specialist knew from the condition of his retinas and previous years of examinations that they were from old age and not hereditary. Heart checks are another thing. Because a dog has a heart clearance, does not necessarily mean a dog is clear of hereditary heart problems, in my opinion. They could still present with SAS through necropsy at the time of death even if the dog has not had a murmur in it's life. How many people check hearts upon death. I don't!! 

To say one stud dog owner/breeder is better than another based on the criteria and results that you have presented, I think is somewhat misleading and unfair to some breeders and stud owners alike. Just my opinion :wink: Val


----------



## Jim Pickering

Goldenboy said:


> I figured that people were just throwing out the names of any male golden that they had either seen in person or, maybe, heard about. If that's the case, just throwing out names, then there are (at least) two more notable omissions in FC/AFC Glenhaven Hntrs Mn Baronet (Bart) And Emberain Good Will Hunting (Will).


You are correct Mark. Definitely Bart should be considered and red to boot. Sorry Glenda.
Will is certainly a talanted boy also, but full siblings AFC Rugby and FC Beau are already on the list. With the Bro x Butter breeding having been repeated several times there are several of the boys out there. If we add Will we need to add Casey and maybe other that escape my memory at the moment.


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## dr_dog_guy

Jim,

I was asking about Cain because I rarely see reference to him, or see him in FT pedigrees. He finished a National, which is no small accomplishment for any dog. Given that accomplishment (has any golden gotten through 10th series since Cain?) you might expect him to be one of the premier field trial sires but he is apparently not. My interest is mostly because I have one of his sons. However, my Cain son was neutered when I got him at age five, so obviously I won't be breeding him. 

I have seen Cain in a number of obedience and hunt test pedigrees from multipurpose breeders, but not in FT pedigrees. Not that my knowledge of field trial pedigrees is voluminous and certainly can't compare to yours or Melanie's, but....... Anyway, so I wondered what it was about him or his offspring that wasn't satisfactory for field trial dogs. Obviously, I really like my dog. Got him at age 5, he's now 7 and we've done an SH and HR, and will run Master this year, so in my very limited experience he's brought a lot to the partnership. Maybe a lot came from his mother, but I am curious. Were his offspring unsuccesful?


----------



## Guest

Hi Chuck  ,

I somehow missed your first post. Cain was not known to produce pups with a lot of water courage. (Disclaimer, this is a generalization of course.) He was also undershot which I'm sure prevented folks from breeding to him.

Melanie

ps I saw your two new Senior Hunters when I was putting the list of new titles together for the GR News. Congrats!


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## Jim Pickering

Melanie Foster said:


> Jim Pickering said:
> 
> 
> 
> have all five health clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics. Gold stars for these owners
> 
> 
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Small correction. GRCA clearances are still the "big four." Thyroid has not been added to the Code of Ethics yet. So I guess more of the suggested stud dogs will get gold stars.
Click to expand...

Just checking to see if anyone has read the Code of Ethics. Gold star for Melaine. However, the Code of Ethics should be updated to include thyroid. At the time the current code was addopted in 1997 there was no formal thyroid clearance. At that time thyroid and other health issues for which there was no registry / clearance were included in a footnote.

This paragraph follows the list of the "Big Four" in the Code of Ethics.


> Consideration should be given also to other disorders that may have a genetic component, including, but not limited to, epilepsy, hypothyroidism, skin disorders (allergies), and orthopedic disorders such as osteochondritis.


Like I have done in the past, no doubt most owners take the approach that if the dog is not symptomatic of thyroid dysfunction the dog must be normal which is no more accurate than mild joint dysplasia or mild SAS not being symptomatic. Thyroid is actually much more objective that the other clearances. OFA now provides the registry so why not have the test done and submit the results.



> And at what point do we start factoring in temperament, allergies, epilepsy, longevity. The list goes on.


Did I not mention doing the homework? The easy part is the pedigree, titles and health clearances (or lack thereof) because this is all part of the public record, k9data and OFA for starters understanding that these sources of information are not always accurate. As you pointed out on the thread about (** & ***) classifying field trial performance between *** and AFC FC or between an FC AFC with 10 all age points and the FC AFC with 140 all age points does take a bit more effort. For this, one needs the GRCA Yearbooks.

It is the other issues you mention that separates the good breeder from the rest. There is no central clearing house for temperament, skin problems, seizures, incorrect bite, etc. This knowledge takes an obsession to know the breed. It takes a tremendous amount of time and effort talking to every Golden owner you can find, young and old, to pry out tidbits of information here and there, and then the ability to separate rumor from fact. Every breeder started someplace, but few are willing to devote the time educate themselves sufficiently to make informed breeding decisions.



> I do have one suggestion to anyone planning future litters. If you ask the stud dog owner what their dog's weaknesses are and they can't come up with anything....I don't care what shoe size you wear but you better turn around and start running!


Or one best put the shoes on and trot over and spend some hands on time with the boy and make the evaluation for his/herself.


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## dr_dog_guy

Hi, Melanie

How are you doing? Thanks for the congrats - it was a heck of a weekend, with two Senior titles and I ran my first Master test, too. Its a weekend I won't forget soon. FYI, Dakota, Ken, and I brought home a Thanksgiving goose or two this year. The geese were bigger than the dog, and the river was fast and slush-covered.

Thanks! That is exactly what I was wondering about. Cutter is just wonderful in the water, so I wouldn't have guessed his quality of Cain kids. Though water in NM is an issue in itself. Anyway, I should have known you would know exactly why Cain wasn't used more than he was.


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## D Osborn

Jim, thanks for doing that-neat statistics.
I know Melanie knows this is a pet peeve of mine, but temperament can not be emphasized enough. And this does pass down through generations-I remember 10 years ago when I saw a puppy that had half of her head crushed, and the comment was made that the dog who did it had a father who was bad with puppies too-old field lines. And there is also the breeding that produced a dog with impecable temperament, but his brother, who was just as talented was nasty, and produced nasty.The first dog produced very nice, sweet, talented dogs. *Also longevity*. I am fortunate enough to have a 9.5 year old field golden. There are many who consider that old for these lines. Having lost one at 8 to hemangio, I consider every day a gift.
I am fortunate enough to have friends who have been doing this 30+ years, and can help me separate fact from fiction. I flew out to the New Mexico National to see the dogs I had heard about, and am not scared to ask questions. I have made mistakes, and have had my share of dogs who failed clearances, but with breeders who stood behind their word.
Val also had a point-Thyroid is not always tested as a rule, most people wait for symptoms. I tested, as I do blood tests every 2 years, and now that Whis is almost 10, every year.I do not send in Cerf's or send my other stuff to OFA. I probably will with my Push pup Britain. I have all clearances, but Whistler probably would not clear eyes due to an injury-but I have a vet letter stating that from an opthomologist.
Finally-do not discount siblings. I look at not only the male/female, but at what their brothers and sisters have done too.And also who has cleared what. When I see a line of dogs with only 1 elbow clearance, it makes me wonder.
There is no perfect dog-you pick your poison,but in doing so you should consider who your buyers are, and how you will market them.


----------



## Jim Pickering

stevelow said:


> Jim, you must have spent many hours on this research.


Not that much. I have done it so many times, a few years back I could have almost done it from memory. We did have a rainy day here and I have become a fair weather trainer so that allowed time to tally up the numbers.



> Early on Goldenrocks mentioned that he would not use Push due to a fairly close relationship. The same logic would eliminate two thirds of the 21 studs mentioned.


Steve, you have obviously done some studying of pedigrees yourself. The same logic would apply more so to 20 or now 22 of the boys suggested than to Push. Thanks to Melanie?s Pony, Push?s dam, he may well be the least close of the bunch with Jaco also having a somewhat different pedigree.


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## TNDUCKHUNTER

No one has mentioned AFC Rosehill's Mr. Speaker. I have trained three of his offspring and all three got there MH and WCX. The only three that I have had to train for their MH title. You can find his web site www.rosehillkennels.com.


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## TNDUCKHUNTER

I'm sorry Mr. Speaker's web site is www.rosehillretrievers.com.


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## Jim Pickering

Val Ducross said:


> Jim,
> I don't think you should assume dogs without OFA numbers for thyroid, ie Push, Sprint and Jimmy, that they were not tested and determined normal by the veterinary standards at the time they were done.


Val, I am sorry that you took offense. This is not what I said or certainly not what I intended to say. I did not realize that by complimenting the three owners that have done the testing and put their dogs on the OFA register was being critical of others. 



> As Melanie stated the COE for the GRCA does not require a thyroid check.


See my reply to Melanie's post.



> We test for thyroid on males we feel might be used extensively outside of our kennel, provide copies of the laboratory reports and allow breeders to determine for themselves if these tests are enough in their opinion.


If you had a complete thyroid panel done on your boys and provided the information to interested breeders that is great. So why are you trying so hard to get the shoe on your foot? 



> Thyroid is something one can check for, but I don't consider it a clearance like hips and elbows.


Can you explain the difference for my benefit? Thyroid dysfunction is a disorder that can be inherited for which testing is available, by definition isn't that a clearance? The only thing new is that OFA now provides a registry, which hopefully will focus attention and get more owners to test and add their dogs to the registry.



> To say one stud dog owner/breeder is better than another based on the criteria and results that you have presented, I think is somewhat misleading and unfair to some breeders and stud owners alike. Just my opinion Val


Again, Val, not what I said and sorry you took it that way.


----------



## Val Ducross

<Val, I am sorry that you took offense. This is not what I said or certainly not what I intended to say. I did not realize that by complimenting the three owners that have done the testing and put their dogs on the OFA register was being critical of others. 
>

Jim, I didn't take offence in the way you might have thought. But you most certainly implied that only 3 dogs were good enough to mention and gave your personal stamp of approval for the Big Five. Good for you. However, if only you were reading this thread and were the one and only official clearance policeman, that would be fine. However, there are many lurkers who might get a misinformed message. That is what I was referring to. My point is that there are others doing testing but not necessarily following your personal criteria, via OFA. There are other countries besides USA, including Europe, who have their own criteria and their own official ways of giving approval/clearances and at differnt ages. If you would like copies of the panel of tests done for Push and Jimmy, for example, just ask  Sprint's was pretty much a T4 test. At the time that was all that was necessary given the level of knowledge, then. 

As for trying to fit a shoe..........well, that is still a work in progress! 8) I am a constant student of this breed and forever learning  I know a heck of a lot more now than I knew in the early 70's and still feel like a puppy, but......I am open for more education. Bring it on!  Val


----------



## Val Ducross

<Can you explain the difference for my benefit? Thyroid dysfunction is a disorder that can be inherited for which testing is available, by definition isn't that a clearance? The only thing new is that OFA now provides a registry, which hopefully will focus attention and get more owners to test and add their dogs to the registry>

Yes Jim. Most folks do their dogs once and when they are young!!! Thyroid function can change, like eyes, over time. To think for a minute that one check and one so called clearance by one's official clearance body of choice is enough information, is just like having eyes checked at two and never checking again, or checking only till five years of age. Like having a heart check done once and necropsy not done. If a clearance is what you want and that works for you, that is fine, but for me, I want health!!!!! Overall health!!!! I want longevity in my lines and work hard trying to get there. So far, so good. Lots of crap in between, but generally and currently it's good. Touch wood!!!! I won't focus in just a few areas of health to meet the criteria of OFA, or GRCA or anyone elses personal preferences or view of health. I like to think I have a broad view of the breed. Probably why I am optomistic for our breed's future. Anyone can be focused on the negative and find the crap, but looking at the whole picture, a total package in many dogs, as a postiive............that's what I am after and am about. 8) Right or wrong by someone else doesn't matter. I have to live with the reprocussions of my breeding choices and I do. The positives have so far, way outweighed the negatives. That, to me, as a breeder is amazing!!! Val


----------



## LH

Great discussion and it is obvious that you all love this breed and are serious about it. 

As far as my very limited knowledge goes there is no testning of thyroid here in Sweden. May I ask, what promted the start of this testing? 

Some time ago I was wondering about epilepsia/seizues and breeding strategies and asked a geneticist. He said something like that seizures are more of a hindrance to a working dog than mild dysplasia, so breed like this and gave some basic guideline. 

Also life with a dog tends to get sweeter with the years as one grows toghether, (well now I am fluffy), so longevity is of utmost importance. A friend of mine just had to put down her Weim of 8 years due to backproblems, she still has not quite understood it.


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## Guest

Jim Pickering said:


> This knowledge takes an obsession to know the breed.


Is it killing anyone else that Jim has given up breeding? 

ps To clarify, I was not being facetious. Really, the man may be grumpy and somewhat opinionated, but he knows his stuff!


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## Becky Mills

Melanie Foster said:


> Jim Pickering said:
> 
> 
> 
> This knowledge takes an obsession to know the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it killing anyone else that Jim has given up breeding?
Click to expand...

Yep.


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## John Gassner

Melanie Foster said:


> Jim Pickering said:
> 
> 
> 
> This knowledge takes an obsession to know the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it killing anyone else that Jim has given up breeding?
> 
> ps To clarify, I was not being facetious. Really, the man may be grumpy and somewhat opinionated, but he knows his stuff!
Click to expand...

Ditto!
Jim's knowledge and dedication to improving the breed is the "Gold Standard"

Putting health before all else is very makes him and others like him a class act.

Melanie, anyone that Jim would by a pup from, also is "Golden".  


John


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## Golddogs

Melanie Foster said:


> Jim Pickering said:
> 
> 
> 
> This knowledge takes an obsession to know the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it killing anyone else that Jim has given up breeding?
> 
> ps To clarify, I was not being facetious. Really, the man may be grumpy and somewhat opinionated, but he knows his stuff!
Click to expand...

I take exception to the Grumpy part. Otherwise, *YUP,YUP,YUP!!!!* Greatest source I have ever used and I am Soooooooo happy to have a pup from his line, via Steve Amrien and Gracie. 

Jim..........Come back Jim!!!!!!


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## Guest

Golddogs said:


> I take exception to the Grumpy part.


You do not know him well yet, do you? :wink: 

We wouldn't have him any other way.


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## Jim Pickering

Golddogs said:


> Jim..........Come back Jim!!!!!!


No!! I am incognito and not coming out until I am sure Val has chilled out and the world is again reasonably safe place. :?


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## Becky Mills

Jim..........Come back Jim!!!!!![/quote said:


> Oh, please O Wise and Ancient One, come back!!!!


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## Guest

Jim Pickering said:


> Golddogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jim..........Come back Jim!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> No!! I am incognito and not coming out until I am sure Val has chilled out and the world is again reasonably safe place. :?
Click to expand...

Jim, give it a rest. I saw you at Starbucks this morning. Sunglasses do not = incognito. :roll: 

OK, enough GDG folks. Back to health!

Link to hypothyroidism courtesy of Mr. P himself:

http://www.oxfordlabs.com/ownrwitd.html

Whoa Nellie, take it for what it's worth...


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## Guest

Becky Mills said:


> O Wise and *Ancient* One


That is SO funny.

BUT FROM HERE ON OUT, NO MORE MR. P GDG! :lol:


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## John Gassner

Thank you O Wise and not yet ancient Melanie for turning this back to health. :wink: 

I think most of us continue to try and learn more all the time about health and breeding healthy dogs.

Big interest by many in Goldens and other breeds to avoid too much/too tight linebreeding. 

Can you please explain why merely looking for lowest COI's is not the best method?

Also, there is no precise "line in the sand" that divides good and bad (pass/fail) health clearances.


Consistant quality dogs don't happen overnight. Many dedicated breeders and Field Trialers have given up in frustration in the past. Maybe we can reel in a few new ones, bring back a few more. And hopefully never lose others like Jim! (I know there's really no one quite like Jim) :wink: 

John


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## Patrick Johndrow

Becky Mills said:


> Oh, please O Wise and Ancient One, come back!!!!


Real rich Becky...or should we just start calling you Kettle? :wink:


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## Guest

For anyone still reading this thread, I apologize for page 6 (even though it's all Jim Pickering's fault.) But really, though it is obvious some folks here know each other from trials, pups, or even just from this great forum, I would like to encourage people interested in this breed and especially those interested in field work whether it be hunt tests, field trials, or kicking up those pheasants on a good day out with friends to *continue to ask questions about breeding.*

It surely must appear to be a "club" where only members can ask the questions and truly get the answers, but I can can assure you--from the heart--that this is a club that wants more members and will share all we can with you. 

I sincerely hope that Susan, who started this thread, has not been scared away but has seen how many resources she has to turn to for her next breeding decision including yours truly.

John, regarding drawing a line in the sand regarding clearances (and thank you for bringing that up) there is a saying about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I would advise against it. As Val is known to say, we are all still searching for the total package. Now if you don't care to do the research about your own dog's pedigree I would just as soon see you draining the tub, but if you do your due diligence please do not discount the dog who does not have the big four (or five according to the ancient one) clearances yet and make your decisions about breeding that dog wisely.

Regarding COIs...pardon my french, but screw'em. There are no numbers on this planet that can tell you what you need to know about the dogs you see in the pedigree without doing your homework. I just got a PM from someone that confirms I will never go to a particular line even though it would produce that magical low COI number. I am literally walking around holding my head in my hands worrying about what is happening to this breed.

In short, please continue to ask questions, continue to share information and seek outside help when evaluating breeding stock. We're all counting on you whoever you might be. 

Melanie


----------



## stevelow

This thread gets more interesting all the time. Thank god for intelligent breeders like Melanie and Jim for putting things in perspective. There are no simple answers to any breeding question.

One item that has been missed. Goldensrock (Susan) apparently has a very nice, well bred bitch. Susan is to be commended for seeking out opinions on RTF for a possible stud. However, in my opinion,very few owners of these 22 wonderful stud dogs would breed to Copper until she has all four or five clearances. Presently she has "Good" hips, and normal CERF, done only once in 2003. While clearances are only one of many things to consider, they should not be overlooked.

Not that this makes any difference, but her name as registered with AKC is Copper (Mioak's), not Mioak's Copper.

Susan, keep up your research, and please get those clearances.


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## Ted Hilfiker

Melanie, Jim, Val, Demi and all.....

This a a terrific thread that I think we should keep going for the sake of all the breeds on this forum. I can't thank you guys enough for your experience, expertise and "feel" for breeding these animals!!! 

The question that has been rolling through my mind for months now is how one goes about deciding when a certain negative factor in the pedigree is "far enough" back that you feel safe going ahead with a breeding? For instance, you research both sides of a possible breeding and discover that sires great grandfather is suspected of throwing problem "A" (pick your poison: hyperthyroid, cancer, etc.) Subsequent litters from sire and his progeny look OK. Dam is, for all you know, clear of factor "A". Would great grandfather be far enough back or not?

Second question: I am convinced that COI is only useful in a very minor way and should not play as big a role in decision making as it appears it should, but I was wondering about the list that follows the COI. Is that really what it appears to be? Let's go back to our poor ole' great grandfather.....if he's number two on the list at, say 1.45, would this effect the decision considered in question 1? 

Are these things a question of educated intuition or is there some mystical equation that works it out for you. If there is, I'd pay good money for the software.... :wink: 

Thanks again, folks...

Ted


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## LH

Have googled:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/relevance/IIIA1Inbreeding.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4204789.stm


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## Val Ducross

I think interesting questions for each breeder to ask themselves about breedings they have done is "Why did I choose this combination over another?" "Did I get what I was hoping for or were there more disappointments than expected?" 

Every problem the breed started with in the beginning has a potential of rearing it's ugly head with each and every combination we do. Those genes are there. To select away from them requires a constant juggling act. We never get completely away from everything. That means overall temperament, personality, structure, health, etc. Some things we can live with, others we can't. That is up to the individual to decide. There are too many factors, far more genes than we may even realize in considering what to do. Just when we think we get breeding dogs right, something else will appear that needs consideration. 

The traits we strive to produce, as in building a total package in one dog, are not really individual and to single out one or two to select from or for is not without risk of producing something else we weren't expecting. 

In other words, if you breed for water courage only, you may find you now have produced some puppies who turn out self-minded, or are stubborn or soft, or moody, who are getting too short or too tall, as in physical traits, or has elbow dysplasia or allergies. We don't really understand how specific traits are connected to others. I don't believe we can select for individual traits like a little less stubborn and moody or too soft, without it's own reprocussions. 

Were the pair used in a breeding combination total packages themselves, as in your idea of what that is? An example for me, would be Pony bred to a number of sires and producing overall packages as in the many talented get she is responsible for now. Why would Mike and Val be interested in a total outcross, as in Push's dam? We didn't really know anything about Pony's background when we made the decision to buy him, but.......we knew she was a producer at the time we made the decision. With each sire she produced wonderful puppies. She had many titles which proved enough to us about her overall gifts of a working dog. We took a chance and trusted our instincts. It was long after when I made a trip to California, thank you Melanie, when I discovered Pony was beautifully built physically and had an incredible personality that I was convinced we had made the right decision. I met and saw Bro run and saw his total package. He was impressive as well, in my opinion. Little faults here and there were acceptable to me. It was up to Push from then on to show us whether or not he, too, was that complete dog. I may not be explaining myself well here and don't know if it helps anyone, but then I am not a teacher, just a breeder trying to help ;-) 

Now I must run as my Jimmy x Reba kids, now 9 weeks old, Like and Vegas, are in need of attention and I have tons of doggy responsibilities to take care of at the moment. Sorry about the rush. Have a great day. Val


----------



## Bente

Melanie Foster said:


> *I am literally walking around holding my head in my hands worrying about what is happening to this breed.*
> 
> Melanie



Melanie: Could you elaborate ??

Thanks.

Bente


----------



## Jana Knodel

I am new to having golden retrievers and to hunting in general but I have a bitch that is going to be going for her JH and hopefully SH titles this year and I am wanting to get her MH title on her next year. I do eventually plan on breeding her down the road( when she passes all health clearances and only then) and she acually has what I would call "new lines" she doesnt have your typical golden field lines so she would be bringing in new blood to the golden retrievers who do hunting tests and field trials. Here is a link to her pedigree on K9Data : http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=170193 her parents didnt compete but did do hunting along with her grandmother. I am very excited to start competing with her as I have done all her training myself and she has shown that she loves to hunt and retrieve since she was just a pup. I brought her home at 6 1/2 weeks old when I put her in the front yard she ran out got a stick and brought it back to me. She also not even a week later retrieved some mail (without me telling her to) that had fallen under my coffee table by my door and I had forgoten about it. She went grouse hunting with less then a months training and did great getting her first grouse (she was 9 months old and had not had any hunting training until this age) and just shy of her being 10 months old went grouse hunting found a grouse watched as my husband shot it and then I sent her to retrieve it went out got it and brought it back to hand without shaking or hardmouthing it. I am very proud of her and hope to have her do great things. My ultimate goal is to get her MH title and then possiably persue field trials with her after I gain more experiance. 

Here is a picture of her with her first grouse at 10 months old.










Jana


----------



## Val Ducross

<No!! I am incognito and not coming out until I am sure Val has chilled out and the world is again reasonably safe place. >

LOL! I just read this!!!. So damn busy with puppies and dogs lately I barely have time to breathe. Damn you Jim, I love you and you know it!!!!! You and Kathy are so dear to Mike and I. Sorry I scared you with with my typical from the hip responses. You rock, buddy and truly appreciate your stats and anything you offer in conversation. You have so much knowledge and information. I promise my responses are simply limited to time and to how to work this emoticons thingy. LOLOL! Sorry again. Val 
_________________


----------



## D Osborn

Bente said:


> Melanie Foster said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I am literally walking around holding my head in my hands worrying about what is happening to this breed.*
> 
> Melanie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Melanie: Could you elaborate ??
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Bente
Click to expand...

I am so not Melanie-she is *much*older than me-but this is what bugs me-
I really am going to go back into lurk mode soon-this is what happens when I do not want to clean up *again* after puppies and actually had a good training day with Britain-
I agree with Melanie and Jim and Val-I have often asked Melanie and Val for their opinions/advice and would Jim if i knew him 8) , I began in horses, so my *thing* in the breed other than Temperament and longevity is structure. 
We are losing fronts and rears, and getting epilepsy and bad temperaments. Not to even mention cancer. We have no where to go-the breed lines wash things down and have SAS, along with the other problems. We are breeding the same thing again and again, as titles sell.
So why am I frustrated? because if you look at the current*known* stud dogs they all go back to the top few-and we are getting tighter and tighter.
And we seem to be ignoring the bitch lines in all this-which as Melanie has so aptly shown is sooo important. Pony is awesome, and she produced so well-and yes give the male some credit, but honestly, Pony did well no matter who you bred her to-But GOOD females are few and far between-name one who is known other than Paws,Rev and Jim's girls :? 
What else? That the ***basic** clearances are still not out there-Honestly, I could give a rats behind if a dog fails elbows-but I want to know, as it WILL make a difference in the total picture I am looking for.
And what is that picture? someone asked if there was a formula??I wish! I have messed up so many times-but with every mess up I have learned something-I had a dog who flunked eyes. She was Otch material, well put together, great temperament, and by virtue of being a hell of a lot more obedient than Whistler, could have gotten her SH. However, she did not LOVE birds. And in order for me to take that chance-she had to be perfect, and she was not-what a loss-old Heron Acres/Sprint/Mo grandaughter. I am not breeding for FT-I will leave that for the true experts, but I will breed to keep the purpose of the golden breed, a hunting dog.She is a happy couch potato in NC-they adore her.
What else-when I agree to breed my males-which is so rare-there has to be a reason. I bred Trader to a female as the lines were brilliant, and we got good average puppies.  I bred Whistler to Shimmer as she is a great low key girl with a great head, great structure, loves water, loves birds and lives to please, but is not over confident. Her lines JUMP back to the old stuff-Whistler has enough confidence for 50 dogs-could be arrogance-loves water,kids,other dogs, has a not so great head,loves birds. Both have parents/ grandparents that lived past 10. Will I keep a puppy? I have no idea as I have a Britain who is pretty cute.
The answer? Honesty-go to the source if you have a question. When Hope failed eyes I talked to the top eye people in the country-several of them-all said the same thing, which is we just don't know. I talked to her grandparent's breeders. I emailed someone tonight to ask about a clearance that is not there. I sent a pedigree of a Mo grandson who is great-best little dog (Jim-you want a project???) but that would be a breeding on pedigrees and not proven performance-ahhh. Then you could talk about how few good people there are out there who can train these dogs worth a darn-the truly good ones are not for your average owners. I also want a team player? Goodness how do you breed for that? I know very talented dogs that could care less who they are with-their owners could care less, but these dogs are also my pets.
Someone asked how far I go back. I look at the grandparents-heavier on the female line for talent, and brothers and sisters. I look at what lines do well together. I look for lines that do not go together-there are a few that bred to each other produce puppies from hell. There are some people who will say don't do to heavy on so and so, but then I spoke to someone who knew the dog, went to see the dog, and bred to the dog.
All right-I am done. How can I put this thing so I can't post for so many days?? :twisted:


----------



## Val Ducross

Everybody loves their dogs....let's start there. Mike and I have had so many Golden Retrievers over the years.....let's start there....Nope, this is more difficult than I thought. Now I have to try to put myself in the place of new people starting out and have a hard time doing that. So many memories, so many failures, so many heartbreaks, so many missing traits ...........yet........so many successes! What do the newbies really want to know? See how complicated this is for old people!!!  

Demi, you rock as you expressed yourself so well from your experiences and I can totally relate. I hear your frustration. Jana, you are the newbie and have a bitch with potential, but don't really know yet how she is, as in total dog in one package!!! Experience, time, competition and training will help you there. She may be the new star and great. Cool. Time will tell. I commend you and encourage you to have fun and explore, learn and keep us posted. I hope she will be all that you hope for, all that we hope for :-D. We are all looking for that special outcross in our breed. Especially in a good bitch. Oops, that could be just me. ... Naw! 

Bitches are very important!! There is no doubt in my mind. It takes two. That's real. It's why we train them. It's why we explore there personalities, etc. from the inside out. We have bred to many bitches who did well in various venues, but special bitches in field, bred to great studs is magical and rare! The right owners, the right training....... Define that?!! ;-) I could but not tonight. Lines are one thing. Successful dogs/bitch combinations within those lines, owners, trainers, are another subject all together. One step at a time. Total packages to total packages. Once defined, accepted and understood, then, then we can move on. Thank goodness my office and puppy room are the same, LOL! Bye for now! Val


----------



## Guest

D Osborn said:


> I am so not Melanie-she is *much*older than me


This is so funny I forgot to laugh. :roll: 

:lol:


----------



## Guest

And now for something completely different...

An English import from show lines with 3 MH legs:

http://www.englishgoldens.net/lochinvar.htm

Haven't seen him in person so can't vouch for anything beyond what I've gleaned from his owner, but he will hopefully fit quite nicely into my breeding program in the future!

Karen
Star Crowned Goldens


----------



## LH

About the genepool and the problem that many field goldens have similar descent, why not import from Europe (like some people here do from You)? There are many great field breeders here. Perhaps not dogs that will fit the most extreme of US field trial requirements but will add to the genepool with other wellbred characteristics.

Some links:


http://www.gospelash-retrievers.co.uk/

http://www.crofter.com/wotsit/canburne/findex.html

http://www.abnalls.com/

http://www.retrievers-catcombe.co.uk/

http://www.merrywaygundogs.co.uk/merryway_june_2005_001.htm

http://www.bell-oktave.at/

http://www.pandreft.btinternet.co.uk/

http://www.northerngoldenretriever.com/index.html

http://www.goldenretrievers.co.uk/

Their pedigrees can be found at:

http://www.k9data.com/

See also Standerwick, Tauvechan and Pebbletoft. 

More links on COI etc:

http://skandulv.nina.no/skandulv new/Publikasjoner/English pdf files/06-BL2005017.pdf

:lol:


----------



## glnbrgold

> An English import from show lines with 3 MH legs:


Interesting dog and the one I think a friend was trying to tell me about. Do you know where this dog is located? I would really like to see him work. 

I suspect there might be a few of us on this forum who don't normally post but who have an interest in that magic mix of show and field lines... not to mention the different look of the English Golden. 

My female is only a year, but the hunt is already on to find "Mr. Right". One breeding will be strictly field since Emmylou needs more drive. The others however....?

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=182545

Deb


----------



## ErinsEdge

starcrwn said:


> And now for something completely different...
> 
> An English import from show lines with 3 MH legs:
> 
> http://www.englishgoldens.net/lochinvar.htm
> 
> Haven't seen him in person so can't vouch for anything beyond what I've gleaned from his owner, but he will hopefully fit quite nicely into my breeding program in the future!
> 
> Karen
> Star Crowned Goldens


I've seen this dog run several times. He can mark ok, but I found it painful to watch. Not my cup of tea. She has a "British" trainer in MN.


----------



## Val Ducross

<About the genepool and the problem that many field goldens have similar descent, why not import from Europe (like some people here do from You)? There are many great field breeders here. Perhaps not dogs that will fit the most extreme of US field trial requirements but will add to the genepool with other wellbred characteristics.>

Linda,

Thanks for the links. We have a number of dogs overseas at this time. The general reason for coming to North America was because they were looking for athletically built dogs with more water courage, drive, overall talent, etc., etc. They wanted that package and felt that generally speaking the Goldens over there were not what they were looking for. They wanted the original type as well. Coming here was not just for new bloodlines as much as what those bloodlines might offer them in their breeding plans. I am sure there are very nice running Golden Retrievers there. Perhaps you can share with us the ones that have impressed you in their structure and working abilities as well as soundness. 

There was a bitch overseas that I was told was quite special. DKBRCH DKJCH SJCH Spica was her name. From her picture, she was certainly very nicely built. Do you know of this bitch? Did you ever see her run trials there? http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=30716 Owner, Joe and Suzanne have some very nice looking dogs and wondered if you ever had a chance to see them working. I was told by others that Spica was indeed a very good bitch. Mike and I hope to make a trip overseas in the future. We want to visit some of our clients, see some trials and working tests. You never know, we might find another dog over there 8) . We are always open to suggestions. All the best. Val


----------



## LH

Hi Val!

My proposition of importing from Europe to the US related to the problem defined/declared by some in this thread that many/most FT Goldens are closely genetically related. Did not mean to imply that the only reason for people in Europe to import from the US would be for the lowering of COIs. Have not seen DKJCH SJCH Spica

http://www.rasdata.nu/golden/hund/1986/dk259228.htm

she was born 1986 in Denmark and did her last cold game test here in Sweden in 1995. I am too young (which is rare that I am unfortunately nowadays). One of the dogs that I have seen and that are responsable for me totally falling is this one, she is related to Spica:

http://www.rasdata.nu/golden/hund/2004/s4161604.htm

I would love to see the Sungold dogs, they have an import from You too I know.


----------



## Guest

When breeding, you need to figure out if you are breeding to produce a litter of puppies, or are you breeding for the long haul with a generational view in mind. Neither way is right, neither way is wrong. You just need to be clear in your own mind what your goals and aspirations are for the puppies produced and then go looking for the stud dog that will best fit that goal. Do you want a litter of pups that has the best chance of winning at field trials? Or are you worried about longevity (conformation, temperament, etc.) in your lines and willing to sacrifice some field ability in the short run with the idea of breeding back to top field lines a generation or two later? Can you go a generation or two or three without producing an exceptional field dog? If you can't, then you need to stick with the field lines. The same goes for the show breeder.

And, of course, there is no guarantee you will improve longevity or conformation or temperament, etc., by breeding to these other lines!

Maybe that import or that show bred dog or that BYB dog is not the most stylish Golden to be running in a Master test, but it needs to be appreciated that the dog is actually running Master tests! Does he have something else to offer that your breeding program may need?

Those of us "in the middle" really need to be thankful that there are the extremes in the breed. It gives us a place to go when we want to work on improving a particular area.

Karen
Star Crowned Goldens


----------



## ErinsEdge

> Maybe that import or that show bred dog or that BYB dog is not the most stylish Golden to be running in a Master test, but it needs to be appreciated that the dog is actually running Master tests! Does he have something else to offer that your breeding program may need?


You had better have Golden females that are strong in the water.


----------



## Jana Knodel

My golden female is very hard water hitting she loves the water and acually would rather retrieve in the water (even if it is really cold) over land she will do land(and still has a ton of drive) but she loves the water. I really do hope to make her a MH and I think if I dont it wont be for her not having the desire or drive to do it and will be more about me not getting her prepared. She has a mix of show and field lines and to me is new lines for the field trial and hunting test dogs lines. I plan to breed her as long as her clearances come back good then will be planning that litter so that I can produce pups who are going to be great hunters and potential field trial and hunting test dogs. I have stood back and looked at a pedigrees of a lot of goldens that are field dogs and they do have a lot of the same pedigrees so I am hoping that my female will become a MH and a great prouducing female and will offer that new line to the field dogs that is my hopes and dreams. I am new to this forum and am training my dog myself which is why I mentioned that if she does have problems will be my fault not hers and she has had drive and birdiness since she was just 6 1/2 weeks old. I am enjoying reading this thread and getting other peoples opinions on the breed and pedigrees and which dogs you like and which you dont. I originaly wanted to show her in conformation but she flunked out (although she did take her puppy class in the 9-12 month class and went in for winners)because she doesnt have the show coat she has a field coat and I was told by the judge that she would do awesome in hunting (I was already training her and she was in good condition) and that she wouldnt in confromation because what the judges look for is that improper coat that will make the show goldens sink if they tried to swim (her words)because that is what is pretty and that is what the public wants to see win. Here is a pic of my girl at her last conformation show (she had just got her first real bird the weekend before when we went grouse hunting) and had was only 9 months old in these pics.




















Jana


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## Guest

ErinsEdge said:


> You had better have Golden females that are strong in the water.
> 
> 
> 
> This would be something a breeder would have to look at in their priorities/goals. If a breeder has a field bred bitch who is awesome in the water, but may be weak in some other area - conformation, longevity potential, etc., then maybe breeding to a "not so stylish in the water" dog from show lines or with good longevity in the pedigree would be worth it. That's for each individual breeder to decide - what are the strong and weak points of the dog and bitch under consideration and how well do they complement each other? How much of a weakening in one area can a breeder tolerate while trying to strengthen another area?
> 
> Karen
> Star Crowned Goldens
Click to expand...


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## Judy Chute

*For anyone still reading this thread*

..hope this thread has many pages more to come...


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## glnbrgold

This has been a good thread and a great discussion. 

I have also been following the Chessie thread on "unknown's" but up and comers. I wish I knew more about Chessie's since that dialog has also been enlightening. 

One of the things I find so fascinating about the Golden is the hidden talent that pops up every now and then. I don't know if this happens in the other retriever breeds, since I am not as grounded in their history. However the Ponys and the Jakes, that as one of my good friends would say - were out of "nothing bred to nobody" put the golden world on its ear, and gave us new blood and a new direction. Then we have the occasional breeder like Glenda Brown who takes what is essentially a show bred bitch with lots of working talent, breeds her to a FC and produces an outstanding dog in his own right.

Could it be that the gene pool is not as small as it might seem? Perhaps we need a few more risk takers that are willing to take a step or two back in order to move the breed forward. 

I firmly believe that there is more to this breed then often meets the eye. We just need to look harder and perhaps not toss out those dogs that might add to a breeding program, but for ...... 

Who knows, maybe Jana's puppy will be the new Pony?

Who else is out there? I will confess that my background is pure show, but I am learning. Surely we have some of our own "unknowns" but up and comers. 

Deb
(and the dog in my Atavar is a rescue... lots of talent, no pedigree, and no chance to see what he might have produced)


----------



## LH

"the Ponys and the Jakes"

May I ask, what are their full names?


----------



## glnbrgold

> May I ask, what are their full names?


You may and I apologise. I too, often get lost in a discussion because I don't know the call name of great dogs. It does hinder the learning process. 

Jake is: AFC Adair Jake Pickering CDX TD MH, owned and trained by Jim Pickering. K9date link http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1509

Pony is: GMHR Phoebe's Prize Piponia CDX MH AX AXJ WCX OD, k9 data link http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=11400 

Pony is the dam of several outstanding dogs and has produced dogs with outstanding working ability regardless of who she was bred to. She also has very nice conformation and has produced puppies with good conformation - a rarity in the field dog world. (just my opinion folks)

Deb


----------



## Guest

starcrwn said:


> How much of a weakening in one area can a breeder tolerate while trying to strengthen another area?


And Part B, how long will it take to get "it" back once you've watered "it" down?

Ted, in addition to _Pick your Poison_, I'd like to add _Never say Never._ I know when I start to say "I'd never breed to that" I bite my tongue because if I do say it, it will come back to bite me in the you know where. 

Though I believe there are certain things some people will be less likely to compromise. I for one, am not willing to water down courage. A less than courageous dog is not one that I would care to live with so how could I expect folks getting pups from us to settle for less than a confident retriever?


----------



## Guest

glnbrgold said:


> Pony is the dam of several outstanding dogs and has produced dogs with outstanding working ability regardless of who she was bred to.


Thank you Deb (and to everyone who has supported the old Pony girl).


----------



## Bente

One thing that makes me chuckle is when people project abilities on their dog which haven't yet been proven.

It's real easy to say, "my dog is great"

It's a whole 'nother thing to have the titles to prove it..


..talk is cheap.. show me the money..


----------



## Jim Pickering

Val Ducross said:


> <No!! I am incognito and not coming out until I am sure Val has chilled out and the world is again reasonably safe place. >
> 
> LOL! I just read this!!!. So damn busy with puppies and dogs lately I barely have time to breathe. Damn you Jim, I love you and you know it!!!!! You and Kathy are so dear to Mike and I. Sorry I scared you with with my typical from the hip responses. You rock, buddy and truly appreciate your stats and anything you offer in conversation. You have so much knowledge and information. I promise my responses are simply limited to time and to how to work this emoticons thingy. LOLOL! Sorry again. Val
> _________________


Boy am I relieved. I probably looked a bit silly out training in the trench coat and fake beard in 65-degree weather.    

Otherwise your Saturday posts are very good.


----------



## Val Ducross

<It's a whole 'nother thing to have the titles to prove it.. >

Good point Bait!!! Define that title? Why is that title so impressive to you? Define the qualities in those dogs with those titles that really moves you? Tell us the title which impresses you the most, the least? Why? Are you interested in titles only or in the dogs who possess qualities which you feel the breed lacks and they possess? Explain the qualities of the dogs in our breed which you admire the most? How many Golden Retrievers in North America have you seen trained and or competed? Are you a breeder? A potential breeder? Define a total package and in one dog? How many Goldens have you seen personally that really rocks your world, as in visual? Why? Do you have a broad view of our breed in North America alone or are your opinions based on a limited area within the US? Are titles alone all you need to form your opinions on this breed? Why? 

How do we truly respect dogs in this breed when so few titles are available for high levels of field other than the ultimate titles in a given country. Just one example. When you look at European pedigrees, we in North America see nothing to flick our switch! Titles seem really rare there. But...are the dogs good, poor or great? Who knows. In Canada, we have titles offered at various levels to suggest level of age and training, and yet, how does the US see that? Impressive, just information, not, what? How many times have you seen dogs in our breed working, in training, in competition? Once, twice, never? 

Also....how many US folks with our breed come here to this country and challenge our field venue at it's highest levels? Do you feel our dogs are inferior to the US dogs in our breed? Are trials over here not worth exploration and dogs within our breed not worth just seeing run, if you are a potential breeder? Do our titles suck compared to the US? If so, why? Explain what you really mean? I have been breeding Goldens a long time and still love to observe dogs training and competing and observing pedigrees. What do I see? Our area in Canada is limited re Goldens. Very few Goldens are here to be challenged in the upper levels. We have to compete against labs and the top labs in the country and against great labs who come here from the US. When I go to the US and I say, ok, that Golden was nice, but I would love to see that dog again, on another day before comment. We are our worst enemies in this breed alone. 

Then again, how many kennels do you know have the number of QAA G.R. bitches that Mike and I have for breeding purposes? Ya, but........ya I know, they are Canadian right? Ya well most, but not all ;-) How arrogant are we, in our breed and in this venue of choice......

Defining that total package and in one dog in our breed of choice requires research as many have said. One opinion on one day doesn't count and we are all limited in our abilities to research properly. But we still have opinions ;-) We don't move far from our venues and areas of competition of choice! What does that mean in itself to be fair to dogs in this breed overall and in the world, let alone North America.....? I am ranting again,  It's not on you Jim this time, but I have my own pet peeves :wink: 

So many people in our breed succumb to the intimidations of the main breed of choice in the field trial game. Enough!!!! They do not define this breed and the amazing accomplishments within our breed. What is true is that this breed was developed to be one of the most versatile hunting breeds ever imagined by one person....Lord T. would be jazzed if still around to be watching how amazing our breed has become, between the training available today and just what this breed is able to do in the various hunting situations. Field trials are bringing all of our socks up high, standards are high. Thank you Labrador world! Those who are breeders of our breed must aspire to a high level or die trying. Those who do and are breeders are producing the best hunting companions imaginable as well as just plain great companions. In my mind, that is ultimate, if you are a breeder!!!! 8)  :wink: LOL! I am busy airing dogs now so had time. You are a cutie Bait and this is just meant for thought! We are all still a work in progress. All the best. Val


----------



## Guest

Melanie Foster said:


> And Part B, how long will it take to get "it" back once you've watered "it" down?
> 
> 
> 
> If we could answer that question, we'd all have Dual Champions!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ted, in addition to _Pick your Poison_, I'd like to add _Never say Never._ I know when I start to say "I'd never breed to that" I bite my tongue because if I do say it, it will come back to bite me in the you know where.
> 
> Though I believe there are certain things some people will be less likely to compromise. I for one, am not willing to water down courage. A less than courageous dog is not one that I would care to live with so how could I expect folks getting pups from us to settle for less than a confident retriever?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that is why for most breeders (show and field) there will never really be any serious crossings of the lines. Very few breeders on either side are willing to give up the show and working homes who want as close to a "sure thing" as possible. And that is something that is hard to blame them for. Competition is tough in the conformation ring and in the field! Trying to do well in both venues is even far harder.
> 
> I've learned to "never say never" too! Fifteen years ago, I was only going to breed to multi-titled dogs with solid health clearances and a strong English background. My litter last year was sired by an untitled 2 year old English-background boy! A case of breeding to the pedigree. The boys I want to breed my girls to just don't exist!  The ironic thing about the litter last year is that it may have produced 2 nice conformation boys (although cream in color!) with field ability. Won't know for awhile of course, but at least we can hope!
> 
> Karen
> Star Crowned Goldens
Click to expand...


----------



## Jim Pickering

Melanie Foster said:



> For anyone still reading this thread, I apologize for page 6 (even though it's all Jim Pickering's fault.)
> Melanie


And well you should apologize for making light of an old man. Apology accepted.    

Now can we come up with something that will take this thread to 10 pages?


----------



## Guest

Bente, can you believe Val just called you BAIT?! :evil: :lol: 

Good luck with the pups from that recent litter Karen. It would be awesome if it all came together!


----------



## carolinagold

This comment bothers me for the simple reason I had a line of Brittany Spaniels who had 0 titles they could just find birds. If you leave out the dogs who have 0 titles you are shrinking the breeding grounds. I have a golden now that just lives to find birds. Actually he is 3 1/2 now and is working on his Masters hopefully he can over come my help. His dad is Emberain Rugby and his mom is Marksalot Shelby Cobra and definitely desire or water temperament is not our problem. Realize when I say this I am not talking about breeding clearances I am talking about titles a dog that can HUNT can win titles you will have to test the generation you are interested in to find the clearances.
________
V12 LMR


----------



## Guest

Jim Pickering said:


> Now can we come up with something that will take this thread to 10 pages?


I have some pictures of Pickering doing cat agility. Does anyone want me to post them?


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Please keep this going!!! The cat agility pics and Pickering will do nicely. It's exam week and between the delinquents in my classes and the one in my crate, I'm tapped out for time. Global warming does have an upside, tho. Last week-end we did watermarks with the big dogs, in January, in Nova Scotia. Fields are open for training, we're even driving the trucks on 'em. It's scary. I'll try to get back with more dumb questions soon....

Ted


----------



## Jim Pickering

Melanie Foster said:


> Jim Pickering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now can we come up with something that will take this thread to 10 pages?
> 
> 
> 
> I have some pictures of Pickering doing cat agility. Does anyone want me to post them?
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Very funny. Just wait, I am working on a program to train the new kitty. I just have not decised it the cat should be de-clawed before FF.

I think that if you will take the bait and discuss Canadian titles with Val that should be good for a couple pages.

:wink: :wink: :wink:


----------



## Val Ducross

<I have some pictures of Pickering doing cat agility. Does anyone want me to post them?>

I still can't do this quote thing right, but.....YA!!!!! LOLOL! Let's keep this thread going....I didn't even know Jim had cats!!!!! Of course, I haven't gone to that venue for a long time to see them in action ;-) Damn!!! I still have so much to learn. Bring on the kittie pics! So much to learn in this venue alone :-( Val


----------



## LH

Ok, my own little European information site, here goes titled Goldens from Great Britain, this is just a small sampe, based on my very limited knowledge: 

This is a result for a search on the K9 on the title Eng. FT. CH.

go to:

http://www.k9data.com/editquery.asp

put this title: Eng. FT. CH in the space named "Prefix titles:" and submit. 

As far as I know there are no other titles to be gained but the FTCH. FTW is not a title. 

(This does/should render a long list of FTCH but it seams to not work every time, might have to do it a few times before it will comply)

By the way, how did a Lab end up in this database :roll: 


Here are som titled dogs:

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=87261

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=112963

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=22148

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=3265

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=113609

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=22360

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=69877

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=21951

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=3555

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=3335

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=22148

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=157367

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=186561

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=22153

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=69791


----------



## Bait

Melanie Foster said:


> Bente, can you believe Val just called you BAIT?! :evil: :lol:


 :shock: Wud I miss? Val, I think you owe Bente a HUGE apology! :lol: (Whoever Bente is :roll: 8) )


----------



## Geoff Buckius

Bait said:


> Melanie Foster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bente, can you believe Val just called you BAIT?! :evil: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> :shock: Wud I miss? Val, I think you owe Bente a HUGE apology! :lol: (Whoever Bente is :roll: 8) )
Click to expand...

Bait, I'd make a comment about "HUGE", but all the running you did on Saturday chasing those Goldens around the fields you'll be down to 165 pounds in NO TIME....and watching you run, there is no chance of you breaking any world records soon


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Fluffy lovers all........

Whoooo-haaa.....ask and it shall be given!!!! First day of exams and they call school. Snow moved in at just the right time of the night!!! This thread has so much I want to ask about I don't quite know where to begin....

Linda H wrote:



> By the way, how did a Lab end up in this database


My guess is it belongs to Kip or Randy.

By the way, Linda, thanks so much for the European sites and dog list. Perhaps you could answer a couple of questions. Is there a registry like OFA one can search that gives the information on clearances? I assume it is the BVA (Bristish Vet Assoc, Maybe?) It sounds like the test is closer to PennHip.......i.e. rating both hips separately and the lower number indicates the tighter hip....is this true? Do you test for heart, thyroid, elbows? If so, is there a registry/registries?

Melanie wrote:



> I for one, am not willing to water down courage. A less than courageous dog is not one that I would care to live with


I agree wholeheartedly with the addition that the dog needs the structure to handle the courage. This is my primary reason for not looking too seriously at a show/field cross. Pups may have all the courage in the world, but if they blow their knees at 18 months, it hasn't done anybody any good. My old girl is the living example of this..... half show-half field and has a ton of go. When I started working her seriously for HT (at age 5) it wasn't all that long before she blew one knee....a year later, the other, then pyometria, then a cancer surgery. She's still ticking, but retired to the couch at 10. She never did run an HT because something always came up that halted her training. I don't want that to happen again and if I ever breed I wouldn't wish it on anyone else. 

Val wrote:



> Define that title? Why is that title so impressive to you? Define the qualities in those dogs with those titles that really moves you? Tell us the title which impresses you the most, the least? Why? Are you interested in titles only or in the dogs who possess qualities which you feel the breed lacks and they possess? Explain the qualities of the dogs in our breed which you admire the most........_etc. to end of paragraph_


I know it's a rhetorical device, Val, but that's way too many questions for one post. You're making my head hurt... :wink: 

Some questions and thoughts on compiling "the book":

Living *way* on the right coast of a huge country and having average middle class finances, my ability to actually see dogs run and make the contacts necessary to to hear all the "scuttlebutt" about up and coming goldens is quite limited. I depend heavily on RTF and my e-mail correspondence (Thanks to Jim, Melanie and Val for their patience) to educate myself regarding breeding. I do get to see some good dog work.....Val and Mike, Joe Renouf, Roy Moujon (sp?), Sally-Ann Costello, Bev Fowler, Dave Thompson, Dan Devos to name a few run our trials up here in the summer and I try to get out whenever I'm visiting the States,
but......I have found getting my own personal book of strengths and weaknesses in lines to be daunting. I completely understand that folks do not want to appear to be criticizing a friend's lines....it's a small world of field golden fans. I cut 'n' paste every nugget of info I can find, but still find myself at a loss when trying to answer pretty basic questions about health issues, performance, etc. and putting all of it in a "total package". I'd be curious how others have gone about collecting that data and analysing it. If you've E'd me on the subject already, don't worry about replying unless you feel it adds to the discussion. Is there anyone out there as isolated as I am who feels they have succeeded in this?

Jim Pickering wrote:



> I think that if you will take the bait and discuss Canadian titles with Val that should be good for a couple pages.


I'll pick up the truncheon for Val on this one Jim!!!! The only people who think Canadian trials are "easier" or titles softer are those people who have never run/attained them. I liken it to hockey.....Canada breeds great hockey players because they've grown up, trained and competed in the fastest, most physically demanding, toughest game there is under conditions that are brutally cold, travelling huge distances just to find a pick-up game. It just makes 'em tougher and more stoic. We breed our dogs the same way. Train 'em straight through the winter and then test 'em on grounds that are as tough as it gets. (Don't know too much about western grounds, but anywhere east of Manitoba would make the sphincter of many of those naysayers tighten up like the windings in a golfball. :wink: ) Due to distance and population our trials tend to be bit smaller........ and this is a bad thing?......most big US trials are looking for ways to limit entries, aren't they? OK, off the soapbox. How'd I do, Val?

I know this is too much.....gotta go get the shovel and get rid of some this.........s........s........snow. Thanks to all for a great thread.

Nice to have the time to spend regards,

Ted


----------



## Bente

traxx said:


> Bait said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Melanie Foster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bente, can you believe Val just called you BAIT?! :evil: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> :shock: Wud I miss? Val, I think you owe Bente a HUGE apology! :lol: (Whoever Bente is :roll: 8) )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bait, I'd make a comment about "HUGE", but all the running you did on Saturday chasing those Goldens around the fields you'll be down to 165 pounds in NO TIME....and watching you run, there is no chance of you breaking any world records soon
Click to expand...


OK, now I am SERIOUSLY TICKED!!! :evil: Being compared to BAIT!!!! Gawd. And now Traxx, and undoubtedly soon Randy, starts posting on this thread!! Is there no relief from these guys??

Just for the record I don't look anything like Bait. And if I knew how to post a picture on this website, I could prove it. So, for proof, I'll have to post a website with a picture of me and my dog on it just to dispell any further possible confusion. You will note that it would take about 2 of me :shock: to equal the size of Bait. 

http://washingtonretrieverclub.org/Resources/WRC Newsletter Dec05sa.pdf

My dog and I are the Golden and female handler on the lower right hand side of the picture (collage) on the first page of this newsletter.

Where can I log an official protest????? :evil:


----------



## LH

This is the answer I have gotten on health records:

The kennel club does publish a data base of Goldens health information. You can order from them in excel format the list of Hips, Elbows and eyes, the cost per list is about ?20 and cover all submissions from scheme start to the latest date the list is updated at the time of purchase. You can do searches for individual dogs, by sire, by dam or most paramaters that you can do in excel.

Link to UK KC:

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/


----------



## Randy Bohn

*s*

Bente...hard to tell from that picture,  you should really post another one in your defense....you 2 are built the same from the back view!! Sorry!!


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Linda...

Thanks for the link...

Bente.....

You better hope Jerry don't see this thread..... :shock: 

Ted


----------



## Bente

ErinsEdge said:


> starcrwn said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now for something completely different...
> 
> An English import from show lines with 3 MH legs:
> 
> http://www.englishgoldens.net/lochinvar.htm
> 
> Haven't seen him in person so can't vouch for anything beyond what I've gleaned from his owner, but he will hopefully fit quite nicely into my breeding program in the future!
> 
> Karen
> Star Crowned Goldens
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen this dog run several times. He can mark ok, but I found it painful to watch. Not my cup of tea. She has a "British" trainer in MN.
Click to expand...


Now my head hurts. I've watched TOO many Goldens who are painful to watch to not flinch when someone suggests adding another one to the breeding program.

I am not a breeder. But I am a field Golden owner, fairly serious trainer (with a 3 yr old Golden female w/ 4 Master passes who would also like to train and run a Golden to QAA status..) and an appreciator of good field dog work. What I care about are health, temperament and performance.

I care about structure only in as much as it relates to the dog being physically able to do the work demanded in running AA stakes... maybe this is because I've been hanging out with the FT Lab people too long (I've seen enough FT Labs to understand the importance of keeping to the breed standard.. the Carbon pups I've seen are a case in point..).

But this is only my opinion... If we want to compete w/ the labs out there then we have to have some Golden breeders who are breeding primarily for performance. And as to physical looks, there's no dog that looks better than the one who's bringing back the money bird..

(haven't we discussed this already on another thread??)

bp


----------



## Bente

*Re: s*



Randy Bohn said:


> Bente...hard to tell from that picture,  you should really post another one in your defense....you 2 are built the same from the back view!! Sorry!!


Ohhhh MAN!!! You are seriously on my S**t list NOW!!!! :evil: 

Anyone? Where does this Randy guy live anyway???

bp


----------



## jeff t.

Bente said:


> (I've seen enough FT Labs to understand the importance of keeping to the breed standard.. the Carbon pups I've seen are a case in point..).


Can you elaborate on this...especially as it relates to Carbon pups?

Thanks

Jeff


----------



## Val Ducross

Damn! I got hell Bente on a possible new de-Bait that I messed up the names completely. HUGE apologies, Baitman!!!!  Forgive my failing eyesight and my way too busy schedule lately. You are still a cutie, no matter what your buddies say :wink: . The new de-Bait was meant to be for us all to think about. Didn't mean to single your post out Bente. It seemed a good segue into a possible new discussion. 


We really don't know each other, but we all share a common breed, common goals for that breed. We know very little about each of our great dogs, some even live in other parts of the world, still undiscovered. All of these dogs and people striving to show each other who and what they are made of. Titles give us some information, health clearances more information, but unless we see these many great dogs working, in person, many times and in various situations, it is nearly impossible to know which stud dog would be the best one for a particular female. We relie on others opinions. We try to trust that. It can be very frustrating and difficult for all breeders of this minority breed, to gather information about possible stud dogs for our girls. The gene pool is small, but is it really? 

Over the years when Mike and I felt we needed something new to add to our gene pool, a dog would appear and we would buy him/her. That dog would have just enough different and just the qualities we were after without completely going away from whatever dogs we have admired and used in the past. Is that just BS luck? We, as in everybody involved with the breed since the beginning of it has always managed to find something new, a new up and coming dog with just enough different and just in time before the possible risk of breed extinction. We, breeders and stud owners, newcomers alike need to pat ourselves on the back in our determination and dedication to this breed. I think new blood is out there still undiscovered. We just need to be open to that and be positive about the never ending possibilities for this breeds future, in the field. We all contribute more than we may even know. Time to find Like and Vegas. Eigh week old puppies can really get into mischief, especially when there are two of them. They are way too quiet at the moment :wink: Have a great day everyone. Val


----------



## Bente

jeff t. said:


> Bente said:
> 
> 
> 
> (I've seen enough FT Labs to understand the importance of keeping to the breed standard.. the Carbon pups I've seen are a case in point..).
> 
> 
> 
> Can you elaborate on this...especially as it relates to Carbon pups?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jeff
Click to expand...


I was talking structurally (and being somewhat sarcastic.. :shock: ) 
Most of the Carbon pups I've seen are kind of leggy, the face has very little "stop", biggish ears, but he's sired a heck of a lot more pups than what I've seen, so take it for what it's worth (which is what you've just paid for it..).. 
My point was that people breed to Carbon for performance. From what I know, he doesn't look too much like the labs who place in confirmation, i.e., those labs who are deemed by confirmation judges to be the closest to the breed standard. Again, the argument about how to weigh performance vs. structure. No one will dispute that structure is important, but do you look at structure mainly per the breed standard or per what is necessary for the dog to physically perform at AA level (and then there's the whole sub-debate that I've listened to from Golden confirmation people who are talking about how their dog's structure is superior for field performance to my dog's structure.. and then they run their dogs in a WC and it HURTS to watch..)
I'm a lot more comfortable talking about Goldens than Labs 'cause most people on this forum have forgotten more about Labs than what I know, so that's all I'm saying about those black dogs! :wink:

And now I'm going to hide 'cause I opened my mouth too much!

bp


----------



## Bente

Val Ducross said:


> Damn! I got hell Bente on a possible new de-Bait that I messed up the names completely. HUGE apologies, Baitman!!!!  Forgive my failing eyesight and my way too busy schedule lately. You are still a cutie, no matter what your buddies say :wink: . The new de-Bait was meant to be for us all to think about. Didn't mean to single your post out Bente. It seemed a good segue into a possible new discussion.
> 
> 
> We really don't know each other, but we all share a common breed, common goals for that breed. We know very little about each of our great dogs, some even live in other parts of the world, still undiscovered. All of these dogs and people striving to show each other who and what they are made of. Titles give us some information, health clearances more information, but unless we see these many great dogs working, in person, many times and in various situations, it is nearly impossible to know which stud dog would be the best one for a particular female. We relie on others opinions. We try to trust that. It can be very frustrating and difficult for all breeders of this minority breed, to gather information about possible stud dogs for our girls. The gene pool is small, but is it really?
> 
> Over the years when Mike and I felt we needed something new to add to our gene pool, a dog would appear and we would buy him/her. That dog would have just enough different and just the qualities we were after without completely going away from whatever dogs we have admired and used in the past. Is that just BS luck? We, as in everybody involved with the breed since the beginning of it has always managed to find something new, a new up and coming dog with just enough different and just in time before the possible risk of breed extinction. We, breeders and stud owners, newcomers alike need to pat ourselves on the back in our determination and dedication to this breed. I think new blood is out there still undiscovered. We just need to be open to that and be positive about the never ending possibilities for this breeds future, in the field. We all contribute more than we may even know. Time to find Like and Vegas. Eigh week old puppies can really get into mischief, especially when there are two of them. They are way too quiet at the moment :wink: Have a great day everyone. Val



Ok, so one more post :wink: 

Val: I couldn't agree with you more. You're one of the best out there. And I agree with you and Ted that nothing substitutes for personal knowledge but this is difficult due to distances.

Thanks for all you do for the breed. Now I am joining Demi in lurk mode (Demi, have you figured out how to set your computer so you can't post on this website for a while?)

bp


----------



## Bait

*Re: s*



Randy Bohn said:


> Bente...hard to tell from that picture,  you should really post another one in your defense....you 2 are built the same from the back view!! Sorry!!


And, BELIEVE ME,....Randy looks at my BACKside ALOT! Maybe sizing it up for a spanking?! :shock:


----------



## Jim Pickering

Ted Hilfiker said:


> Jim Pickering wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that if you will take the bait and discuss Canadian titles with Val that should be good for a couple pages.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll pick up the truncheon for Val on this one Jim!!!! The only people who think Canadian trials are "easier" or titles softer are those people who have never run/attained them. I liken it to hockey.....Canada breeds great hockey players because they've grown up, trained and competed in the fastest, most physically demanding, toughest game there is under conditions that are brutally cold, travelling huge distances just to find a pick-up game. It just makes 'em tougher and more stoic. We breed our dogs the same way. Train 'em straight through the winter and then test 'em on grounds that are as tough as it gets. (Don't know too much about western grounds, but anywhere east of Manitoba would make the sphincter of many of those naysayers tighten up like the windings in a golfball. :wink: ) Due to distance and population our trials tend to be bit smaller........ and this is a bad thing?......most big US trials are looking for ways to limit entries, aren't they? OK, off the soapbox. How'd I do, Val?
> Ted
Click to expand...

Sorry, Ted, my remark for Melanie was a private joke. Melanie and I both worked on the stats for the GRCA Yearbooks and in the process had some discussion about CKC and GRCC verses AKC that were to be included given the difference in requirements. It has nothing to do with difficulty.

Examples:
>> To earn the AKC OTCh means a dog has accumulated 100 OTCh points based on dogs defeated. CKC OTCh means that the dog has earned the UD title, which is awarded based on the dog?s performance against the standard. Obedience competition for placements may be equally as difficult in Canada or the States, but the OTCh titles are very different as respects requirements to earn and therefore what the titles says about the dog.
>> Likewise with the GRCA FDHF verses the GRCC FDHF. The GRCA awards the designation for a Golden that has earned 25 all age points. It is my understanding that the GRCC awards the title when the dog earns FTCH or AFTCH, which can be accomplished with ten points. That is not to say that the ten points are any easier to obtain in Canada, but the requirements for the FDHF titles are significantly different.
>> A field trial dog in Canada qualifies for a National with one 4th place, not so in the stated. Not that a 1st or 4th is any easier in one venue verses the other, but saying a dog qualified for a National is a much different statement when referring to the States verses Canada.

No need to have a chip on your shoulder.


----------



## glnbrgold

Ted said


> I agree wholeheartedly with the addition that the dog needs the structure to handle the courage. This is my primary reason for not looking too seriously at a show/field cross. Pups may have all the courage in the world, but if they blow their knees at 18 months, it hasn't done anybody any good.


The one discussion I refuse to get involved in is the show vs. field debate. It solves nothing, and only pisses people off. Each of us have our own priorities and directions, while a few will try to breed down the middle - always searching for the right set of compromises. 

However, this is the first time I have heard anyone say that the show bred dogs are more susceptible to health problems then field bred dogs. I was under the impression that each group suffered their fair share - perhaps some lines seeing more of one set of problems then another, based on genetic history. In fact, I had always understood (I know, rumors and speculation) that the sarcoma's were more prevalent in a couple (not all) of the field lines. Could those of you more familiar with the field side of things weigh in on this? 

It does make sense that the heavier boned show dogs would be more susecptible to orthopedic injuries. However, it has been my experience that one of the first things you lose with these field x show crosses is bone and coat (which is fine by me). 

One of my big frustrations with dipping a toe into the field lines is my lack of knowledge about where the skeletons are hiding. I know my own lines, and thankfully I am pretty comfortable with what might be lurking behind my own field/show cross, but I find it is tough moving away from my comfort zone as I look for future sires with field titles. 

Deb


----------



## Janice Gunn

*Golden Retriever*

Well...seeing some of you are going into lurk mode, I'll come out.

My comment shall be on comparing Cdn trials to US trials....
For years we have competed on both sides of the border.
This is like comparing apples to oranges.
As Jim commented it has nothing to do with the difficulty of US verus
Cdn but rather the competition and numbers that you are up against in the US.

On the Westcoast we run against these pros:
Jim Gonia, Frangsrud, Totten, Patopia, Sargentti, Remien, Gunzer,
Kiernan to name a few....and they have a truckload full of dogs.
Amateurs - Roy McFall, Jack Vollstead, Charles Tyson, Ray Bly, Larry
Calvert, Frank Kashevarof, Ken Jackson, to name a few!
This group is as good as it gets! We compete against them wknd after wknd.
In Canada on the Westcoast - one pro comes to mind - whom runs 
only a couple of dogs. 

In the US an average size Open is 80-100 dogs.
In Canada (Westcoast) - 25-40 - 50 if we are lucky.
This year I see more limited and special all-age US stakes....this means
if your dog hasn't placed/Jam in these large stakes in the past, he ain't going to get a chance to even compete.

A US derby - average - 30 dogs - alot that are pro handled/trained.
Cdn Junior - I have seen as few as 4 dogs compete - average 10-12 dogs.
Stanley was the top US derby golden and top Cdn Junior golden,
both an honor, but is the achievement equal - no.

Boomer became a FTCH AFTCH years ago.
He has his AFC but we are still fighting for that FC . We need
the win to title. 
When you are head to head with one of the top Labs in the country, the blue doesn't usually favor on the side of the golden.

Boomer has qualified for every Cdn National for as long as I can remember.
He has qualified for 2 US Nationals. 
Qualifying for a Cdn and US National - doesn't compare.
One US National we attended and he joined a small and elite group of
Golden National Finalists...

We tend to run more US trials.....we are gluten for punishment and
seek out the largest trials we can run, with the toughest competition.
I enjoy doing the same in obedience....currently working on Stan and Billie's US OTCH titles.

Some weekends are exhilarting, some weekends we wonder why we
do this?
Oh right, we love it!
More importantly, we love our dogs and spending time with them.


----------



## HarryWilliams

*Re: Golden Retriever*



Janice Gunn said:


> ....currently working on Stan and Billie's US OTCH titles.


Are you planning on breeding Billie? HPW


----------



## Miriam Wade

Janice Gunn wrote:


> When you are head to head with one of the top Labs in the country, the blue


Janice-

At the risk of really putting you on the spot-can you elaborate on that statement?

Boomer Fan Regards-

M


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Uh-oh.....I cheesed everyone off again.  Sorry.....

Jim.... much of my post re: US v Can. trials was tongue-in-cheek hoping the tweak a football fan or two. As Janice mentioned numbers *are* a huge factor up here (see the last few issue of Retrievers Online), but it's another topic entirely. Distance between trials is the other. But I'll hold to my assertion that the individual trial is as tough as anything south of the border. Now if I could just get this thing off my shoulder..... :wink: 

Deb....

I did not mean to open up the field-show debate, but they are two different sets of priorities and standards (unfortunately) in my opinion. I never meant to attribute Aggie's cancers or pyometria to her show background.....I don't know where they came from, frankly. It's just that I think it is unfair to the dog to train to AA stakes standards on a BIS body. I think there are hopeful signs, though. Val showing Push, Janice and her dedication to obedience come to mind. Here in NS there are an increasing number of British import OB goldens (I think the number is three-it's a small place :lol: ) that are built more like field goldens than bench. So maybe that will turn around after awhile....I sure hope so. 
Besides we're both frustrated with trying to find out where the meanies lie.
Just keep punchin', I figure, and we'll get there.

Gotta go....hope I didn't offend. I'm liking this thread alot.

Ted


----------



## Janice Gunn

*Golden Retriever*



Miriam Wade said:


> Janice Gunn wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> When you are head to head with one of the top Labs in the country, the blue
> 
> 
> 
> Janice-
> 
> At the risk of really putting you on the spot-can you elaborate on that statement?
> 
> Boomer Fan Regards-
> 
> M
Click to expand...

One example only!

A few years ago John ran both Boomer and Gunner in the Open.
I arrived at the trial once the Open had completed.
I had numerous trialers come up to me and say what an incredible
trial Boomer had run....and hands down, they all felt he was the winner.
I talked to John....he said the same thing....and we would know because
he had run BOTH dogs and knew exactly what they had done.

When ribbon time came........Gunner won.......
Boomer I believe got a 4th or RJam
Everyone stood their with their mouths open.......and not because they were trying to catch flies!


----------



## Janice Gunn

*Re: Golden Retriever*



HarryWilliams said:


> Janice Gunn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....currently working on Stan and Billie's US OTCH titles.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you planning on breeding Billie? HPW
Click to expand...

Was going to this year....but Billie sits on back to back US Qualifying wins,
a Cdn Open win, and 47 Am. OTCH points in 3 shows.....having to much fun to take time out for puppies just yet - she is just 4 years old, comes into season about every 14 months so have another year to decide.

Are you thinking of swinging to the other side - i mean you do
have yellows - you're close already :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## TNDUCKHUNTER

*Golden Retrievers at Stud*

If the breeding does take place as mentioned I would like to know. I like training the Goldens, a lot of pros do not, but this one does.

John Walker
Cedar Grove Retriever Kennels
Murfreesboro, TN


----------



## Janice Gunn

*Re: Golden Retrievers at Stud*



TNDUCKHUNTER said:


> If the breeding does take place as mentioned I would like to know. I like training the Goldens, a lot of pros do not, but this one does.
> 
> John Walker
> Cedar Grove Retriever Kennels
> Murfreesboro, TN


Gosh I don't even know the age of my own dog - Billie is 3 years old !

John....hope we can send you a puppy someday :wink:


----------



## HarryWilliams

*Re: Golden Retriever*



Janice Gunn said:


> Are you thinking of swinging to the other side - i mean you do
> have yellows - you're close already :lol: :lol: :lol:


Naw, I'm just going to keep trying to do the best I can with what I've got. I don't have the knowledge of golden retriever breeding to offer much to this discussion. BUT, the reason I asked was because I believe she would fit into the topic of discussion about expanding the gene pool plus she's a really nice dog. HPW


----------



## weebegoldens

*different but working dogs*

Here are a couple others that people might want to think about - that are out of little different than normal. We would get some different blood out there. 

Topbrass Happy Camper MH
Trifecta'Strikes Gold SH ***
OTCH Heron Acres Never Say Never UDX, MH, WCX, OBHF
High Times Gldnlch Soul Shaker *** CDX MH WCX

Hunter's Moon Toby's Spirit TDX MH MX MXJ*** http://home.pacbell.net/mdary/
MHR Indian Creeks Prairie Twister ***MH
Kuventre Daddy Let Me Drive MH ***

This is a short list..


----------



## glnbrgold

Weebeegoldens wrote: 


> Here are a couple others that people might want to think about - that are out of little different than normal. We would get some different blood out there.


Just an FYI... 

High Times Gldnlch Soul Shaker *** CDX MH WCX, (Preacher) is neutered. A very nice dog, but he did not clear hips. 

He is the litter brother of my female's dam. 

Deb


----------



## weebegoldens

*Mioak's Keepin' the Faith ***

another one...


----------



## glnbrgold

Here is one of my favorites - he is too close for me to use, (and I might do it anyway) but is such a cool dog. I'd sure like to see what he could throw. 

Goldenloch Sir Bailey Bagger SH WCX. 

He has one MH leg and should finish his title this summer. He is not only a nice working dog, but is a nice looking one as well. 

Deb


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

For folks who've been around awhile...

What do you know about FC-AFC Right On Dynamite John? Owned by Elaine Klicker? Not much in k9 data.....ran across his picture in one of my golden books and didn't recognize him from Adam...but he looks great and got an FC-AFC.

Also, what happened to the Ronaker dogs? I see Ronaker's Novato Cain (sp?) in some peds and I think Mercedes Hitchcock had Ronaker's Belvedere Firewater, another great looking dog that I never heard of.

Any comments on either?

Thanks, Ted


----------



## Jim Pickering

Ted Hilfiker said:


> Also, what happened to the Ronaker dogs? I see Ronaker's Novato Cain (sp?) in some peds and I think Mercedes Hitchcock had Ronaker's Belvedere Firewater, another great looking dog that I never heard of.
> 
> Any comments on either?
> 
> Thanks, Ted


Sham on you, Ted. You did not look too hard. Just go to k9data, search for the dog and keep clicking on offspring.
Hint: Topbrass Topeka of Sunstream


----------



## Jim Pickering

Ted Hilfiker said:


> For folks who've been around awhile...
> 
> What do you know about FC-AFC Right On Dynamite John? Owned by Elaine Klicker? Not much in k9 data.....ran across his picture in one of my golden books and didn't recognize him from Adam...but he looks great and got an FC-AFC.
> 
> Any comments on either?
> 
> Thanks, Ted


Ted, I am certainly old enough to have known John, but was not into the dogs back then. However, I do share your opinion in that I think he was a great looking dog, at least in the photos I have seen. It looks like he might have been a bit smallish, but that is difficult to determine in a photo. I love his head thought.

Given that some of you seem to be determined to put this thread back on subject, I might add a bit more food for thought. In a prior post you asked about the ?mystical equation?. I probably should leave it to those who have not already figured out that there is no mystical equation to figure it out for themselves, but I have my moments.

Before I got into breeding, I set out to find the mystical equation, to break the code. Surely breeders to that point just had not done enough research and applied a systematic analysis of the data. This was several years before K9data was started. I purchased a complete set of GRCA Yearbooks and set out to trace the genes of every FC and/or AFC Golden from day one. Where there was limited or no pedigree information in the Yearbooks I tracked people down and begged them to send my copies of pedigrees. I constructed a matrix to follow the genes from generation to generation. Since I did not have the capability of a 3 dimensional matrix I had to do it separately it by sex and did the males first. I never got back to repeating the process for the female side. However, I did conclude that there is no code to be broken, al least not in the performance data.

Folks have talked about the various factors that go into a breeding decision; conformation, structure, courage, health, titles on and on. Let?s assume your breeding goal is to produce field trial pups and you have narrowed your stud list down to a few boys that are equal in all respects except performance. Would you go with the boy with the best performance record? For me if I am breeding to produce a field trial dog, field trial success would be an absolute must, but that is fodder for a whole different thread. Logic says to go with the best performance record all else being equal. Look at how the Lab folks brag about the NFCs and NAFCs in the pedigree of the pups.
So here is the history of the field trial performance Goldens ranked by their total all age points.
#1 NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton - 274 all age points
#2 FC AFC Misty?s Sungold Lad ? 212.5 points
#3 FC AFC Nickolas of Logan?s End ? 176.5 points
#4 FC AFC Kinike Chancellor ? 134.5 points
#5 FC AFC Tangelo?s Side Kick ? 130.5 points
#11 FC AFC Right-On Dynamite John ? 88.5 points

So were the best of the best field trial Goldens also good producers.
>> Cotton was an outstanding sire with 8 titled pups out of seven different bitches. The only other stud to match that record was Cotton sire, Holeay Barty.
>> Lad was not nearly so good. One FC AFC to his credit.
>> Nicholas also did not have much for notable pups.
>> Chance apparently did not sire many litters and did have two AFC pups to his credit but littermates out of a FC AFC bitch.
>> Pardner certainly sired his share of litters. He sired quite a few QAA and MH pups and I believe there is one AFTCH pup in Canada, but no FC or AFC pups to his credit.
>> John maybe had one QAA pup to his credit.
Some of these boys predate the hunt test program and may well have sired many hunt test quality pups.

Performance and titles of the sire and dam sell puppies but it would seem that the genes are not a sure thing.

Ted, if you are interested in the John genes, probably the closest you can get is via the Quartermoon dogs.


----------



## scribdog

Jim Pickering said....
I never got back to repeating the process for the female side. 

This is curious, because Jim came up with the best female 'side' to obtain, train to great heights and breed great offspring. So he must have or been amazingly intuitive.

I am not a breeder, but from all reserch, one is told to look more strongly at the female's line. In looking at the list Jim gave, wouldn't it be better to assertain the best of these 'limited' greater offspring from the dame and then follow those lines? 

Did I put that correctly? 

Way overstepping my bounds by responding to this!!!!


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## Guest

Ohmigawd, who told scribdog about this site? Pat, save yourself, go back to training your fabulous dogs!

Though she's a smart cookie, isn't she? :wink: 

Look at the bitch lines! (And please look beyond the dam herself. As mentioned previously, note accomplished female littermates, girls the female littermates have produced, etc.)


----------



## Guest

*Re: different but working dogs*



> We would get some different blood out there.
> Hunter's Moon Toby's Spirit TDX MH MX MXJ***


Quick reminder that though the same names aren't there, the pedigree behind him is.

"Cooper" could be considered to have the same pedigree as Rugby, Beau, etc if one were to examine it as a whole. His dam is a full sister to Bro and his sire is a full sister to Butter. Not to downplay his accomplishments, but different he is not. In fact, just more of the same.


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## Judy Chute

> if I am breeding to produce a field trial dog, field trial success would be an absolute must, but that is fodder for a whole different thread


..Jim Pickering

Might that happen?


----------



## Andy

Judy Chute said:


> if I am breeding to produce a field trial dog, field trial success would be an absolute must, but that is fodder for a whole different thread
> 
> 
> 
> ..Jim Pickering
> 
> Might that happen?
Click to expand...

I'll lurk with great interest in that thread, too!  
Andy


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## glnbrgold

A quick question and food for thought...

Are there any field trial goldens that DO NOT go back to Holway Barty?? He even shows up in Pony's pedigree (along with Goldrush Charlie LOL)

Deb


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## Val Ducross

You obviously have worked hard at this Jim, and I really appreciate and respect that. Thanks for the data. I feel stats are a 'bit' of information about whether a litter or dogs may be considered successful. Defining success is not simple. Number of points earned are one consideration.

The BIG questions to me are "How many puppies in each of those litters produced, actually ended up in field trial homes? How many did not? Of those homes where good training was offered, how many failed to make it? How many homes for field trial Golden Retrievers were there at those times? Perhaps many in the US compared to Canada. We sure don't have a market for field trial Golden Retrievers around where I live. Even of those who are interested, proper training and raising of those potential ones is key to the success of those dogs. 

How many were trained properly and given the chance to show their talents? I know folks who are able to find good field trial homes and work hard at doing that. Awesome. Those with that market have a huge edge over those who do not get those potential puppies in the right homes. Statistics are one thing, but defining level of greatness in one dog or another or combinations as in breeding potential, is quite another without more information and from those people who knew these dogs personally. Could we be limiting ourselves in our breeding choices alone, because some feel statistics tell all? Information is good, how we use that information is more important when making breeding decisions. 

Whether a dog earns 10 all age points in their days of competing or 1,000, does that really mean the 1,000 point dog is better overall than the 10 point dog? Do we avoid the 10 pointer due to that. Isn't this where we might end up limiting the gene pool. Just breeding to those dogs who owners could afford to market those dogs, had the best of possible trainers. What do we really know about the dogs you listed other than they earned many points in their days? Would they be a dog you would breed to, me, others? I would need more information and the number of points would not matter in my search for the right applications, as in breeding. Rightly or wrongly. 

Another good reason we own our own stud dogs. We get to know the dog and well!!! If they are really good as in total package, they stay, if not, they are moved out. The other thing is I am a believer in breeding for the whole dog and use the breed standard to aid in determining that. I don't consider myself a field trial breeder, but a breeder of Golden Retrievers. I interpret the breed standard with the goal as hopefully producing the highest level of hunting retrievers and interpret the breed standard accordingly. The spillover of that, leads our puppies into many venues and not just high end hunting. We select what we want and others are able to do the same. We don't have a field trial market at this end of our country. Very few people are interested in the field trial game using Goldens, as we are. Field Trials is our game of choice! We are often the only Golden Retrievers competing in a large Labrador group. How do the stats work there?

Not to diminish the value of statistics, but I think that information can also be misleading. We have had a few dogs with wins and most of their points over the years and gave up on them because they were not a total package in that dog for field trials. They lacked important criteria to make them so. That criteria may not be a reason for others to quit on them, but for us, with dogs always up and coming, those we gave up on were not necessarily as good as the next dog coming up in our opinion at the time. One dog that comes to mind is Can. OTCH. Skylab's Monarch Mike***. He had his win, but due to training issues he had a hangup at trials on water blinds. When we bought him, he was already the Top Junior Dog in the country. However, in training or in hunting and he knew the difference, he was awesome. At trials, when he made it through the water blind, he excelled in his water marks. He had an incredible temperament and was a joy to train. Why would a dog go down on a water blind in a trial situation only? He came to us with this hangup by the way. Was it poor basics? Poor training period or was it a character flaw? Something genetic? I think it was training, as he was great in any other environment. Something happened in his life. Who knows this information but us. He was Jimmy's grandsire and I was jazzed to get Jimmy because Mike was in his pedigree. This is IMPORTANT information. I am sure there were plenty of other Golden Retrievers over the years where we all might have made different breeding decisions if we had more knowledge. I could give more examples, but the brats are quiet again! :lol: Just more for us to think about. Val


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## Janice Gunn

*Golden Ret*

[Look at the bitch lines! (And please look beyond the dam herself. As mentioned previously, note accomplished female littermates, girls the female littermates have produced, etc.)[/quote]

Good point Melaine BUT if people did this with Pony and her first litter,
you might not of sold any puppies!
You took a chance because you truely believed in Pony's working abilities. 

Or perhaps I am wrong......have her female littermates also produced?


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## goldendog

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and hope it keeps on going. Love hearing from the best of the best in the golden world.

I have a one year old female whose pedigree is a little different.

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=172749

She is being totally amateur trained and will start running HT this spring. Thus far , she is a hard charging confident dog on water and land. Have not seen many that hit the water like she does.

Provided she gets the proper clearances and performs like I think she will, I will be looking a male pup or stud in the future to compliment her. Any suggestions, have been told to look at Ambertrail's Repeat After Me.


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## Val Ducross

Ambertrail's Repeat After Me, Can.WCX (Qual points) can be seen at 
http://ambertrail.com/riderstuddog.html

"Rider" is my heart dog after Sprint. The youngest of the Sprint sons, from the last litter from us...... Sprint was 13 years old when we did that breeding. We trust Rider and the pedigree so much that we now have him bred to Splashdown Arriba Reba, Am. Can.*** (Can. Am. Win) and plan to keep a puppy. On the note of looking at the bitch lines, which I agree with, by the way, this was one of the decisions we came to as Reba is the stronger field dog than he is, but similar on the whole. Both extremely athletic in structure. Reba still looks and acts like a two year old and she is eight. Rider is seven and is still a great looking lean, well muscled dog, still goes hunting and is generally the sweetest dog on earth. Both in hard working condition. Rider is retired because we had too many dogs to consider at the time and he was the weakest of the crew. Although talented and stylish, his lack of self-confidence would hurt him from time to time. To many who have seen him, and in the levels that he competed in, the last being Qualifying, he ran much better for me than Mike. This dog was biddable and always tried, but could get into trouble if he was not certain about what he was looking at. He is a thinking dog. Not always a good thing ;-) Interesting dog however and can't wait for the litter. Rider is simply not Sprint. Close, but lacking in a key ingredient. His pedigree is strong however. Is Rider's fault due to training or genetic. This time I think it is just who he is. The lacking is still very much within our standards of total package for a great hunting dog, but not good enough for All-Age for us. He has been bred very limitedly, but what I have seen of the kids have been impressive and we have received many compliments on them. 

We always have wanted to use Rider on one of our girls but for obvious reasons we didn't have the right one for him. Reba was the obvious choice. We were hoping to use Sprint's frozen semen on Reba, but that is another story ;-) Rider is linebred on Sprint and that was our next option.

Reba, we bought sight unseen. She came up for sale and we were immediately told by a friend about her, and we jumped on it. When I picked her up from Cynthia Williams and had my first look, I nearly cried. She looked like Sprint's dam, Tess and acted just like her. Love at first sight. The reason Mike and I wanted her so much was because of her dam, Goldwing Star. Another bitch who aged well and was still competing and looking great at 10. Mike was judging in the US when he saw Star and immediately was impressed by what he saw in her. Still drove hard on land and in water and was wreaking of self-confidence. He talked quite abit about her and weeks or months later, we lucked out getting her daughter. Reba is also a Bro daughter. If you need more information, feel free to ask :-D Later. Val


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## Jim Pickering

Judy Chute said:


> if I am breeding to produce a field trial dog, field trial success would be an absolute must, but that is fodder for a whole different thread
> 
> 
> 
> ..Jim Pickering
> 
> Might that happen?
Click to expand...

Might what happen?

Breeding? NO

Start a new thread? Maybe but I think this one has the potention of being perpetual given that the subject has changed 5 or 6 times and it is still going.


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## Bente

Jim Pickering said:


> Might what happen?
> 
> Breeding? NO



Why not?


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## Jim Pickering

Melanie Foster said:


> Ohmigawd, who told scribdog about this site? Pat, save yourself, go back to training your fabulous dogs!


Maybe Pat is sufficiently dedicated to training so RTN will not become an adiction.

Pat, I have been meaning to ask if you and Miriam have gotten together to intorduce the Boomer boys?


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## Jim Pickering

Bente said:


> Jim Pickering said:
> 
> 
> 
> Might what happen?
> 
> Breeding? NO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?
Click to expand...

1. I'm a wimp. Mother Nature was not kind in spite of my efforts. Thought I would get out of her way and maybe she would chill out.

2. I am too old and grumpy to deal with people, although the medication has helped.

3. The only female we have currently is spayed.


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## Val Ducross

1. I'm a wimp. Mother Nature was not kind in spite of my efforts. Thought I would get out of her way and maybe she would chill out. 

2. I am too old and grumpy to deal with people, although the medication has helped. 

3. The only female we have currently is spayed. 
_________________


Too funny, yet too true!!!! :-D Personally, been there..........The best thing that ever happened to us and we really had tons of success in the early show/obedience/field years, but with many more trials and tributions than not, after the first breedings, competitions, etc....The best thing was we were taught a new way to train our Goldens and only within the last eight years. The rest of the time was trust others, flail and fail, mostly. The training program offered to us in recent years is perhaps the best gift we have ever received re training. Can't share it yet. But, I can tell you, that our eyes were opened wide through learning about that. Still comprehending the information. Breeding is one thing, picking the right puppy is another, raising them another, getting clearances another, but knowing, I mean really understanding what your dog has to offer, is in having that great training program! Basics being key! Not just bits of one, but a full entire one. As amateurs this has been the best thing to happen to both Mike and I in any of the years struggling to be where we are as breeders and trainers. We look back at ourselves and laugh, we look forward with wonder!!!! How can we really know what we have bred, other than what we know for sure re training, re clearances, pedigrees, etc.! How do we know what is truly great in our dogs....Well, learning how to showcase that! Another subject altogether and not one done on RTF or any other forum for that matter!  Information is grand! Hope is eternal ;-) Val


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## D Osborn

goldendog said:


> I have really enjoyed reading this thread and hope it keeps on going. Love hearing from the best of the best in the golden world.
> 
> I have a one year old female whose pedigree is a little different.
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=172749
> 
> have been told to look at Ambertrail's Repeat After Me.


Disclaimer: I do not know your dog, and I am sure she is a great dog. So what I am about to write is not a reflection on her, but rather what happened long before she was a twinkle in the breeding god's eyes 8) 

The breeder of your dog's father asked all of her puppy buyers not to breed their dogs. This is fairly public knowledge of those of us in the obedience world-if you look at his siblings, most have them have done quite well, I know or have met a majority of these dogs. The first breeding turned out quite well as young dogs, and there were enough requests that the breeding was repeated. Pretty soon after that problems (health-mostly seizures- and temperament) started to show up, and when these guys were a few years old she asked them not to breed them. Most have respected her wishes.

Now, what I will not do is speculate on the reasons for why these dogs are why they are. I know the owners of most of the immediate dogs in this pedigree, and some are friends. As Jim said the breeding gods are not always kind. However, I will comment on a couple of things.

One, I have always admired the breeder for stepping up to the plate on this.She took back any dogs that were sent back, and chose to be very open about what was going on-most people would not have.

Two, a lesson about repeat breedings. Wait until you know what you have-most problems do not show up until the dogs are at least 2. I know she wishes she had-

And yes, I asked before I posted this-although I know it is public knowledge, it is also painful. So treat this as a cautionary tale. I thought long and hard before posting, as I had to weigh the educational benefits vs. opening up a can of worms. However, I have said know your buyers, and know what you are or could produce. And finally, be prepared, God forbid, to take back EVERY puppy you breed-


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## Judy Chute

*Golden Retrievers at Stud*



> Start a new thread? Maybe but I think this one has the potention of being perpetual given that the subject has changed 5 or 6 times and it is still going.
> _________________
> Jim Pickering


A new thread is definitely what I meant! Or, as you have suggested, this thread could go on..with yet another subject change. 

Especially since


> breeding to produce a field trial dog, field trial success would be an absolute must


..might be an extention of this thread?...and visa-versa? ..in my most humble opinion  .. 

Respectfully, 

Judy


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## Judy Chute

*Golden Retrievers at Stud*

quote]really understanding what your dog has to offer, is in having that great training program! Basics being key! Not just bits of one, but a full entire one. As amateurs this has been the best thing to happen to both Mike and I in any of the years struggling to be where we are as breeders and trainers.


> Well, this post is rather timely ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do we know what is truly great in our dogs....Well, learning how to showcase that! Another subject altogether and not one done on RTF or any other forum for that matter!
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps your intention or rather that you feel that this is a subject not to be done on any forum..however, here it is...in part..however small, but a little more inspiring than you know.
> 
> As an amateur with a very talented, wonderful Golden boy, who deserves the very best... this "shot" of inspiration is priceless.
> 
> So, thank you for taking the time for yet another great post.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Judy
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

*Re: Golden Ret*



Janice Gunn said:


> Good point Melaine BUT if people did this with Pony and her first litter,
> you might not of sold any puppies!
> You took a chance because you truely believed in Pony's working abilities.


I am sharing what I have observed over the last few years and strongly believe. I have learned a lot since I bought the old girl out of the newspaper. 

Why people bought Pony pups is beyond me. They were certainly not marketed as field trial dogs because I did not pretend to know what we were going to get. The fact that owners who bought pups intended to be huntin' dawgs, obedience dogs, etc, were inspired enough by their new found friends to compete in field trials at a fairly reasonable level still shocks (yet pleases) the heck out of me.

If you build it, they will come. 8)


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## John Gassner

Correction. If you build it WELL, they will come! And a little good luck doesn't hurt either.


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## Guest

John Gassner said:


> And a little good luck doesn't hurt either.


No kidding! Supportive friends don't hurt either.


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## Bente

bumpity bump..


waiting to hear Jim expound on breeding Goldens for field trial success ..


bp


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## JS

As others have commented, this thread has been MOST educational and thought-provoking! Thanks to all of you who have contributed!!  
JS


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## Judy Chute

*Golden Retrievers at Stud*



> waiting to hear Jim expound on breeding Goldens for field trial success


Thank you for seconding that request!


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

I'll third the request to Jim, but don't want to put too much of a load on the ole' guy... :wink: So, others should respond as well. 

I *do* think that performance has to be a primary concern when slugging through pedigrees for possible breedings of swampcollies with FT potential. As Val alluded to, however, opportunity has to be another. What opportunities did the puppies of sire X or dam Y have to express their genetic disposition to high performance, good health, temperment?
(Those would be the big three in my book.) 

Oh, Jesus, this thread is so long I gotta quote myself. Back to the great grandfather and factor "A":



> For instance, you research both sides of a possible breeding and discover that sires great grandfather is suspected of throwing problem "A" (pick your poison: hyperthyroid, cancer, etc.) Subsequent litters from sire and his progeny look OK. Dam is, for all you know, clear of factor "A". Would great grandfather be far enough back or not?


The same question could be asked of a positive factor: How close is close enough that the genetic expression, given a reasonably producing sire/dam, will show itself in what percentage of the pups? I see a number of breedings in the retriever world that appear to me to be playing with some serious fire, just to get that one elusive pup that has "it" and is willing to "sacrifice" the other nine pups to achieve it. As we get more sophisticated with genetic testing, this will become a much bigger issue and I'd like to get my head around it in advance. Any thoughts?

I'd also like to see a response to:


> but I was wondering about the list that follows the COI. Is that really what it appears to be? Let's go back to our poor ole' great grandfather.....if he's number two on the list at, say 1.45, would this effect the decision considered in question 1?


This thread is doing me a *great* deal of good.......

Rock on regards,

Ted


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## Mike Colgan

Was wondering if anyone has seen Kiowa's a Place in Time MH run or is familiar with him. His pedigree seems different than most to my untrained eyes and he is a good looking from the pictures on the web. I have really enjoyed the information shared on this thread thanks. Mike


----------



## Jim Pickering

Mike Colgan said:


> Was wondering if anyone has seen Kiowa's a Place in Time MH run or is familiar with him. His pedigree seems different than most to my untrained eyes and he is a good looking from the pictures on the web. I have really enjoyed the information shared on this thread thanks. Mike


This thread was fast approaching page 3 until Mike bumped it.

I have not seen Freeze, but did have a littermate. The pedigree is a bit different in that Freeze?s sire, FC AFC Tigathoe?s Kiowa II, lived (1971 ? 1983). 
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=38163 
This was, of course, a long frozen semen breeding. Some of the pups did go to field trial homes, but did not work out.

We had littermate, Kiowa's Set-Tainte, ?Bear? that I can tell you about. Bear had a wonderful temperament and personality. He was a very good marker, had a great water attitude, had a ton of courage and was a very hard charger. He had everything one could want in a retriever except that he was nearsighted. He would have made a great hunt test dog, but did not have the eyes to be a field trial dog.

A little history for the newbies among you. FC AFC Tigathoe?s Kiowa II, ?Ki? was one of four FC AFC pups from the Bonnie Brooks Elmer x Tigathoe?s Chickasaw breedings. His siblings included Dual Ch AFC Tigathoe?s Funky Farquar, ?Quar?, the last Golden dual champion. 

If you were a breeder back in the day of these boys, which would you have selected for a stud, FC AFC Ki or Dual Ch AFC and national high point derby dog Quar? I suspect most who could handle the logistics would have selected Quar.

Quar sired several QAA pups, but none that earned a championship title. Ki on the other hand sired two FC AFC, one AFC and one CH pup in addition to a bitch named Splashdown Emberain Aubrey UD MH ***.

We all know Wraith?s Duncan and most probably think of Duncan as a Cotton son or Barty grandson which is correct, but Duncan was doubled on Ki also.
One more tidbit. Back in the early days of OFA hips were not graded Excellent, Good and Fair. It was pass or fail but OFA did have a category called ?Near Normal?. I am told that Elmer was OFA ?near normal?. That is not to encourage every breeder to forget health clearances, but maybe one case for considering the total package.


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## Ted Hilfiker

All....

Wow, with little "swimmers" like that Ki musta been some kind of cold-water dog! :shock: :wink: Wonder what the record is for length of time semen's been frozen and still produced a successful breeding?

Thanks, Jim, edifying as usual. In your (or anyone else's) opinion, how much is "carried forward" pedigree-wise with these AI breedings....i.e. if a Duncan great grandson were bred to a Freeze bitch ( :wink: ), would this be reasonably considered doubling up on Duncan? Now my head is hurting....again. 

I am also interested in hearing from anyone who has seen these dogs run, their impressions of performance, temperment, line manners, etc.: 

Jaco http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=37334
Ranger http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=61456
Freeze http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=38163

Living where I do, most of this info I must get second hand and it would be much appreciated. To the owners and/or breeders of these dogs who may be lurking, I would be very interested in hearing from you, as well.
*Please, please, please PM me* (In my best James Brown imitation!)
I get quite queasy about these sorts of requests and do not want to have public discourse on currently breeding dogs, especially if it's negative. We're a sensitive us lot, us Golden folks!! :roll: 

Going for the aspirin regards,

Ted


----------



## Val Ducross

Memories!!!! ;-) 

I remember making a trip with a bitch in season and my toddler son in tow many years ago. We all flew to New York to a friend of ours who had made arrangements for a babysitter for my son, so that we could go to the Westminster Dog Show and then go to meet Ki, Knuckles and Pat Sadler at Pat's home. What a trip that was. I was determined to breed my Show Champion, CDX, Quaified All-Age bitch to Knuckles at that point as I was told he was a nice looking son of Ki. Pat was a very gracious host and took lot's of time with this newbie, explaining both dogs. I was a diehard show person in those days and structure was very important to me. Ki was a very tall Golden, leggy, not much bone, but basically a nice package. However, I didn't really appreciate that then. Ki was also a wonderful house dog and a gentleman. I was very impressed by those qualities. He was not a hyper maniac and in those days of learning the differences between field dogs and show dogs, I was pleasantly surprised that he was such a stable all around typical Golden Retriever in personality. I was still a new person to the world of breeding. Pat spent a good deal of time explaining to me why I should breed to Ki instead of Knuckles and her advice was great. Again, too young and stupid to 'get' that information. Not to mention Torch Flinn had always advised us in those days that you breed to the dog that produced the dog, not to a son of that dog. In my struggle to make the right decision, I decided not to breed to either dog :?   A very big regret!!! How arrogant was that :roll: :lol: She was not impressed by me at the time, but after a visit here when she came to breed a bitch of hers to Sprint, we laughed about my ignorance and after I humbly apologized, she kindly forgave me. Still, I wish I knew then, what I know now ;-)............it would have been a very interesting breeding and would have added more to the gene pool. Can. Ch. Ambertrail's Honey Bee ***, CDX, Am. WCX was a very special bitch who *** in this country from the Open All-Age level. She was a full sister to another great all around gal who at the time was the most titled golden in the history of the breed. Stitch has since been de-throned by many, but it was pretty exciting for awhile. Just reminiscing  8) Val


----------



## LH

Foreigners question: which of all Goldens studs that have been used in breeding for some time, have shown themselves to produce the healthiest dogs with the best working capacity and least vocalization? Please PM if unsuited for forum.


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Linda....

I think if any of us knew that for sure we could have saved alot of Atkinson's bandwidth!!!

Sorry, but I don't know enough *yet* to give a decent opinion. 

Happy hunting,

Ted


----------



## D Osborn

> I am also interested in hearing from anyone who has seen these dogs run, their impressions of performance, temperment, line manners, etc.:
> 
> Jaco http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=37334
> Ranger http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=61456
> Freeze http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=38163


Hi Ted,
One of the best things to do is go look at what they produce. Keep in mind what the female contributes, but the joy of k9 data is you can just keep looking-most people who have done really well will update the dogs, and people who are intested in the dog will update stuff. I am more impressed by looking at a dog who has been bred a few times, but out of each litter has the accomplishments that I am looking for-
A friend just got a Ranger puppy out of an impressive Trifecta female-she is not in k9 data, but she says the little darling is a ball of fire.


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Demi....

If ever in the last four years you have had trouble getting on Amy's database (k9data), it's probably because of me. I'm there all the time. It's great for many, many things, but actually seeing the dog run, being around when it's training, knowing it's history and it's "people"...... that's the kind of info only being there can get you. That's what I'm looking for from the folks here at RTF.....there are a number whose opinions, experience and expertise I respect a great deal and I'm hoping they'll chime in. Plus, I just love the stories about the great dogs and personalities that have played this game. (Most recent thanks to Val and Jim :wink 

Hunt 'em Up,

Ted

P.S. I'm led to believe that drive is an area that Ranger pups are not deficient in :wink:


----------



## LH

One thing I an wondering about, why are almost no Golden litters advertised on this forum? For example I would like to know which litters are planned out of Steeple Hill Ranger. Also about this stud, I have read many very positive comments but since I have another frame of reference I am curious as to which qualities inspire the positive comments?


----------



## 150class

LindaH said:


> One thing I an wondering about, why are almost no Golden litters advertised on this forum? For example I would like to know which litters are planned out of Steeple Hill Ranger. Also about this stud, I have read many very positive comments but since I have another frame of reference I am curious as to which qualities inspire the positive comments?


I have my suspicions but would be dragged over a bed of broken glass for voicing them.

Its just the way it is - hows that?


----------



## 150class

Mike Colgan said:


> Was wondering if anyone has seen Kiowa's a Place in Time MH run or is familiar with him. His pedigree seems different than most to my untrained eyes and he is a good looking from the pictures on the web. I have really enjoyed the information shared on this thread thanks. Mike


Im getting a grandson(forgive me if Im using the wrong term here) of his later this month. I cant wait. You guys wouldnt want to see the pedigree as you would rip it apart Im sure


----------



## Val Ducross

Linda,

Can't speak for others but usually my pups are spoken for before they are born. I have placed general information on this forum before about upcoming plans. I had a recent postponement on the Push x Allie litter on the ground and 4 and a half weeks of age. 4th pick female is currently available to the right home. The other eight puppies are sold. She had five females. Nice breeding  Reba's litter by Rider is sold. I am still deciding whether to breed Flame to Push when she comes in, which is any time now. Winter is about the one time of year I like to have litters. Timing is best for me personally to raise them properly and still be free to train in the spring. Flame (Ambertrail Sparks To A Flame, QFTR, JH, WCX) is a half sister to Allie (Ambertrail She's All That, QFTR, WCX). Both are daughters of Mioak's Real McCoy, Can. Am. ***, OS out of different dams (Sprint daughters). There is a nice Push x Allie daughter in Italy (Barbara Stagni) you might want to take a look at as well. Apparently her male from the US is a good dog as well. Who know who he might be bred to. Regulations are awful to get a dog to Sweden though :-( I had a recent request to keep my eyes open for a good older Push son from another lady in Sweden. Jorg Brach (pro) in Germany apparently has a talented Push x Flame daughter in Germany. He will be coming here again for a male out of Reba x Rider. If you need more contacts over there, just let me know. Val


----------



## LH

Hi Val!

Have found the websites of those brave importers that have already done what I would like to do. You have a small colony over here, talk about big extended family.


----------



## Val Ducross

LOL! Thanks Linda. The are all great clients and now friends. I wish you all the best in the search for just the right dog for your needs. Take care. Val


----------



## Steve Amrein

LindaH said:


> One thing I an wondering about, why are almost no Golden litters advertised on this forum? For example I would like to know which litters are planned out of Steeple Hill Ranger. Also about this stud, I have read many very positive comments but since I have another frame of reference I am curious as to which qualities inspire the positive comments?


I think there are litters posted but just like in the trial world they are in the 1% and you have to look quick and often, also i dont think that many litters come up.


----------



## D Osborn

> If ever in the last four years you have had trouble getting on Amy's database (k9data), it's probably because of me. I'm there all the time. It's great for many, many things, but actually seeing the dog run, being around when it's training, knowing it's history and it's "people"......


Well, now I know who to yell at when it crashes!! 8) 

Seriously, I have seen all three run at the golden special olympics,(Maybe not Ranger-can't remember) :lol: and I do not think, although I also love the stories, that it shows how they produce. I have seen some of the most business like dogs produce idiots, and the goofiest dogs, when bred to a great female produce stars. So that is why I said what I did. As you said, I much prefer to see them train, or talk to someone who has trained with them.
However, my fondest memories are of watching Jim's Jake run up north-Seeing the other Jim's Maverick, watching Lori Jolly run Speaker-I had never know a dog trainer who had fingernails, sitting through that storm in New Mexico when Lisa got her VCX-
I think I like seeing the dogs more to see their structure and how they view water. The trial itself might not show much-just go look at the Chavez thread :roll:


----------



## Andy

Hey Ted and Linda, and anyone else that wants information on some of the the top shelf Goldens, you should think about making plans to go to the GRCA Specialty near Kansas City this year! That way you can judge'm for yourself.
Andy
ps: Maybe Kip and Randy will be ready to break out their young one  .


----------



## Jeff Buikema

*Golden Specialty*

I would like to echo Andy's comments and invite everyone to the Specialty this fall. It is a great experience watching some of the best goldens in North America compete against each other. Unfornately, several of the FC's and AFC's were unable to be there last year. With the Specialty being in Missouri, no one has an excuse not to be there. Nice grounds! Good food! But, admittedly, some strange people!

Parenthetically, I was also wondering, is it possible to save this line on studs?

Fascinating to read the comments by Jim, Melanie, Val and many others.

Jake I and Brooke are having a great time training with Cody down at the Fuller's this winter.

Andy, how is big Jake coming along this winter? Will you run in LA or TX?

Jeff


----------



## Andy

*Re: Golden Specialty*



Jeff Buikema said:


> But, admittedly, some strange people!
> Jeff


 :lol: Now that's funny! :lol: 



Jeff Buikema said:


> Andy, how is big Jake coming along this winter? Will you run in LA or TX?
> Jeff


He's just laying on the couch getting fat :wink: . I'm planning South Louisiana to be the first trial for Big Jake and Lucy this spring.

Send a pm to me with some details on your TX trip.

Andy


----------



## Jim Pickering

Andy said:


> Hey Ted and Linda, and anyone else that wants information on some of the the top shelf Goldens, you should think about making plans to go to the GRCA Specialty near Kansas City this year! That way you can judge'm for yourself.
> Andy


Given that Andy has mentioned the 2006 Specialty, I would also urge anyone who might plan on entering the field trial to join the GRCA if he/she is not already a member. I just received the Jan/Feb 2006 issue of the GRNews with the 2005 Specialty results. They did a great job with the photography last year. 

Seriously, one need not be a GRCA member to watch or even to enter, but one does have to be a member to be awarded any of the GRCA Perpetual Trophies. Personally, maybe the greatest honor for me has been seeing the name of one of our dogs engraved on a trophy along with the truly great Goldens of the past.


----------



## Jeff Buikema

*RE: Trophies & Membership in GRCA*

Hi Jim,

Some of us were actually wishing that you would run the Specialty but drop your membership in GRCA since you have so many trophies and really do not need any more. How many have you taken home over the years?

But your point is well taken, because I beleive that very thing happened last year. There was a placement in one of the higher stakes but the person was not a member GRCA and the trophy went home to an undeserving and questionable character if my recollection serves me well. 

Thanks for all your helpful historical input on golden studs.

Jeff


----------



## Bente

..comment re the topic thread..


.. many have commented about the importance of the bitch lines (some breeders who are posting on this thread have really nice titled bitch lines..)

.. so.. if you are thinking of breeding, wouldn't it be best to train and campaign your females before deciding whether they should be bred (assuming they pass their clearances, of course, do not have health issues such as seizures etc, etc, and have temperaments in keeping with the breed) ? 

.. And *if you are breeding for performance*, have some minimum performance standard that your bitches must achieve before considering using them in your breeding program?

.. wouldn't that process serve to identify the bitch's performance strengths and weaknesses and help lead to identifying a stud who truly complements your bitch.. (which might not be the highest titled stud, but one who meets your performance, health, temperament requirements, matches your female -- no doubling up on weaknesses -- and has produced well, hopefully with females of similar lines as yours.. ) ? 

I am not a breeder, and understand that luck and good placement of puppies (in homes who can and will train them in field performance) plays a huge part in producing titled offspring...

.. but I like to see the campaigning of the dam (Jim and the Gunns seem to be quite successful in this.. Melanie too.. and other as well.. just would like to see more of it..) 

bp


----------



## LH

I dont know if this is common but I have a sort of hesitancy to go further up the hunt test classes with my beloved bitch, this due to the increasing physical risks involved. Have an idea that I would feel less like this with a dog, but probably not. This probably also has got to do with her almost drowning when little. 

Has anyone heard of a dog drowning during swimming?


----------



## Judy Chute

*breeding field trial Goldens..*

breeding to produce a field trial dog, field trial success would be an absolute must, but that is fodder for a whole different thread

Above quote from page 12 .. 



> .. but I like to see the campaigning of the dam (Jim and the Gunns seem to be quite successful in this.. Melanie too.. and other as well.. just would like to see more of it..)
> 
> bp


Not sure just how many pages (had to go buy another box of printing paper!..I am saving it all) are allowed for a particular "thread"..however, there seems to be a huge interest in this "fodder"  . Readers "seconding the motion" for more on page 12!  

Such a great thread..Chris and Vicky must be pleased with the use of the Forum here! Positive, educational, many of the very best sharing their experience, expertise and advise.


----------



## John Gassner

Judy,

I think Chris should lock this thread! Some strange guy from LaCrosse spewing such vile about the nice folks from the Show Me State. :shock: 

Jeff,

Jake and Lucy have been chasing pheasants and ran a little club trial in KC this weekend. I think Andy is the couch potato. 8) 

I judged on the FT grounds this Fall. They are very nice. Bob also has a nice hunting cabin and pond there also. :wink: 


John


----------



## Jim Pickering

*Re: RE: Trophies & Membership in GRCA*



Jeff Buikema said:


> Hi Jim,
> Some of us were actually wishing that you would run the Specialty but drop your membership in GRCA since you have so many trophies and really do not need any more. How many have you taken home over the years?


Jeff, aren't you supposed to add the   if you are kidding. You are joking, right? :evil: :evil: 

I am not sure about the number, but the dogs earned them not me. I will admit that it was a fun ride while it lasted, but the last of the girls is now retired. If I make it this year, it will be to spectate.



> But your point is well taken, because I believe that very thing happened last year. There was a placement in one of the higher stakes but the person was not a member GRCA and the trophy went home to an undeserving and questionable character if my recollection serves me well.


I cannot figure out whom you are talking about unless you are referring to the derby placements. Even then I would not say undeserved, but there was this Fogg/Moore team that carried away a couple trophies.


----------



## Jim Pickering

*Re: breeding field trial Goldens..*



Judy Chute said:


> breeding to produce a field trial dog, field trial success would be an absolute must, but that is fodder for a whole different thread
> Above quote from page 12 ...


Actually I have attempted to explain my remark, but was unable to do so satisfactorily. I have therefore concluded that the remark was not valid and not worth discussing. Also, that discussion, valid or not, would involve titles and since some are already testy about titles, I am not going there.


----------



## Val Ducross

Hmmmm..............Risk!!!!!! I am reading so far that some folks are concerned about risking their dogs safety, others risking that they may be challenged on their opinions, some even concerned about the risks involved in the possibility of breeding their bitches to the wrong studs?

Fear!!! As I sit whelping my third litter since December and watching an eight year old bitch pump out puppies like a vending machine, already five in just over one hour, it makes me wonder...........How much does fear rule our lives? :?   Yet another subject in this one thread :lol: 8) :twisted: What I have learned from risks and mistakes about whelping alone in 33 years..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Come on Jim, be a man, be a big cave man, take a risk. I promise to be gentler :twisted: :wink: I do fear that I might make another blunder, end up Bente out of shape and Bait the wrong guy again, but hey you only live once 8) Val


----------



## Bente

Great post Val!!!

I took a risk and posted my thoughts even though I don't know about breeding from the man on the moon.

I have learned a lot from your posts Val. Thanks for keeping this thread going!!!


----------



## Val Ducross

Bente,

Your post was fantastic!!! You put a great deal of thought into it and I totally agreed with your intent. I meant to write, but my morning started a bit rough. No power for hours, cold in the house, bitch in labour, other litter good and not too cold yet, thank goodness, but a concern if the power was a long time issue. A visiting bitch to get to the airport, only if weather permitting and that was close. Two older puppies needing attention, the other older dogs needing attention, Mike running around like a madman, getting generators working for ours and his dad's house, just in case we were in for a long run of powerlessness....... and a partridge.........in a pear tree!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Awwwww....life! In the end, the bitch got off on the plane, the puppies didn't come till it was warm, the other litter is just great, and Like and Vegas are crate trained!!!!!! Sounds like a country and western song in the making! 8) Sorry folks. But my office and puppy room are the same. Too much time on my hands, fingers (pun intended) 8) :lol: Val


----------



## Klamath Hunting Gold

Helluva thread.

As a owner/half-assed trainer/handler of nothing but golden girls, I really have enjoyed this.

I had to make the call NOT to breed my favorite Daisy because she failed Thyroid. Talk about painful. From the posts on the earlier pages, I understand that Thyroid is not part of the standard tests. I wish it were. My first two golden girls tested bad for thyroid.... I am on my third girl now and the world is looking better. Keeping our fingers crossed.

Bente... are you still running just the one girl or do you have another in the works? I cannot believe anyone could have mistaken you for anyone with a call sign like "Bait."

Cheers.
Hand


----------



## LH

Val Ducross said:


> Hmmmm..............Risk!!!!!! I am reading so far that some folks are concerned about risking their dogs safety, others risking that they may be challenged on their opinions, some even concerned about the risks involved in the possibility of breeding their bitches to the wrong studs?
> 
> Fear!!! As I sit whelping my third litter since December and watching an eight year old bitch pump out puppies like a vending machine, already five in just over one hour, it makes me wonder...........How much does fear rule our lives? :?   Yet another subject in this one thread :lol: 8) :twisted: What I have learned from risks and mistakes about whelping alone in 33 years..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Come on Jim, be a man, be a big cave man, take a risk. I promise to be gentler :twisted: :wink: I do fear that I might make another blunder, end up Bente out of shape and Bait the wrong guy again, but hey you only live once 8) Val


Hi!

I think fear can be good, it makes you think about consequences before you act and take precautions. As long as it doesn?t stop you from doing things. It will not stop bad things to happen but it will make you avoid the risks that are avoidable.


:lol: Sometimes I train watermarks with a floating vest on my dog :lol:


----------



## Val Ducross

Autoimmune problems alone could drive us crazy. How much is this due to genetic causes? How much about the innoculation programs we follow? How much do we really know about the secondary effects of Lymes disease and what that may play on the immune systems of dogs? How much do we know about the environment causing some of these issues like Thyroid alone? Do we check thyroid once and say that's it now. Cleared or not? Never test again. How do we know which came first, the chicken or the egg?  I can remember with shots alone in the days when we only did distemper, a few others and rabies. Then, we were told we had to give parvo too. It was not long after when I started hearing breeders of other breeds complaining about new breeding problems they had never had before. Coincidence? I don't know.

At dog shows we talked about this stuff all the time. We had different breeds and suddenly people were sensing a difference and didn't know why? Was it the parvo shot? Was it that we simply tipped the balance re innoculations by adding that one more virus to our dogs bodies? Did that one more shot have anything at all to do with the new issues folks were beginning to see? Now we are told not to give shots annually. That after the first year, they are either protected or not? Give rabies according to the rules of your state or province. Once every three years is generally the rule of thumb? Why? Who decided that suddenly we don't need to do constant boosting anymore? Are there studies supporting this? I am a constant student and continually question, observe and hopefully learn. If we avoid every dog who has produced a negative quality in a given litter, who do we have left to breed from or to? Risk! People all want to hear the dirt on a dog, but what do they do with the information? Gossip among themselves, dwell on the negative? We polarize the negative and we downplay the great things in dogs, in life for that matter. We are just people wanting our dogs to be better than anyone else's. We are as competitive in breeding as we are in competition. How fair is that to each other? 

We test our dogs eyes annually, but how is their eyesight, really? Are we breeding for better eyesight or just to avoid cataracts? When we do elbows and hips, does that prevent a dog from getting arthritis anyways? If we don't train the dogs, we could avoid cruciate injuries or possible drowning :wink: . If we remove dew claws, does that protect our dogs from other toe injuries? Why remove dew claws, then? I don't anymore as I realized if we removed everything that could be injured, we might not have a dog left :lol:  Like It, Vegas......where the heck are you two now!!!! :twisted: PS. Reba had six puppies. Four boys and two girls last night! All are doing well. Have a great day! Val


----------



## Bente

Klamath Hunting Gold said:


> Bente... are you still running just the one girl or do you have another in the works?


I have another one in the works, but she's the wrong color (black!). Ellie is 3.5 months old and is out of Katie Q's dog Judy. It's a repeat breeding and I see Ellie's older brother in training (he made the Nat'l derby list and has already won 2 Q's). Anyway, I really liked the personality of the pups that I saw from the first litter (really sweet dogs) and the working ability should be there, so I went for it..

.. but there's something about the working Golden that continues to intrigue me. I'll always be running a Golden (and I like females..)


I'm looking forward to the testing season starting again. Are you going to go to Sand & Sage? They opened up some really nice area last year..

Bente


----------



## Judy Chute

> I'll always be running a Golden (and I like females..)


..Bente

May I ask..why do you prefer or rather you said "like" the females..to run field trials? 

Here we go, perhaps, expounding on the breeding of successful Field for successful field  ...and why a girl? ..it seems that is also what Jim P. prefers  Perhaps, though, that is in trying to build more female Goldens succeeding in Field. vs the focus more on the boys that so many seem to have. 

The Field Lab guy  that I train with has all "girls" and trains them to FC, AFC etc etc..Candadian, too. Just two training..one retired girl. He does like the boys, though. But, am so impressed with his girls..he then breeds to the like in a boy..FC, AFC etc.. So..breeding success to success. for Field.. His first girl, that is now retired was not so well bred as the two he has now..but he got her there. 

Thanks..(hope this question is not insulting to anyone..not meant to be)

judy


----------



## Bente

Judy Chute said:


> Bente..
> 
> May I ask..why do you prefer or rather you said "like" the females..to run field trials?



WHOA!!!!

I have NEVER run a Field Trial. I will be running Qual's w/ Maggie this year, and I believe she has the ability to finish (we won't comment on my abilities here.. :wink: ) , but whether we ever will, remains to be seen. I will run Q's because I look forward to the set-ups, to watching others run the tests well, and to learning more about where our training and handling holes are. 

We run Master HT's. 

I thoroughly enjoy them. The people are a blast, the set-ups fun and Maggie and I both love participating. We learn something every time out.



As to why I prefer females..

I guess if I wanted to stack the odds more in my favor I would run a male. From what I can see they are tougher and more even tempered than females. 

But I own females because I like them. Personal preference. 
The ones I've had are smart, sometimes too smart. They're smaller and I like smaller dogs, and they don't try to pee on everything (I know that can be minimized w/ training but still..). From what I've seen, they're more independent minded too, which I guess I can relate to :wink: .

We did have a male English Setter as a pet when I was a kid and he was a good dog. I guess I just like the females better..

.. and I really enjoy seeing people reaching higher levels of field performance success with stylish Golden females. Just shows that the breed does have bottom.. 

bp


----------



## sometimes a great notion

Bente, are you going to the picnic trial this weekend with Ellie. I know it is in Fort Lewis area 14 from what I know from the wrc club. I plan on taking Paul as his truck is down still. Sprite is doing awsome and is doing doubles on land. Paul has taught her to sit up on her marks so she can see them better. She is still pretty tiny, full of P and V but he is having a blast with her.. Jane


----------



## Bente

nope. my folks are coming to town and I've got to play the good daughter..


----------



## sometimes a great notion

bummer, I would like to have seen you. There will be lots more HT though. I may go over to the Sand and sage test but sure yet, I am pretty sure that I am going to go to the Salem HT. I got to get Sprite ready for the next years Nationals. I believe it is here in the PNW by Evergreen isn't it?


----------



## Bente

Yep. Our club (Evergreen Golden Retriever Club) will be hosting it. 


(I look forward to finally meeting Randy and Kip, and their Fluffy :wink: !)


----------



## sometimes a great notion

Yes me too, If there is anything I can do to help on it let me know. I still have to join but i do read the website updates. I gotta go, time for a bike ride. It is nice out so going to take advantge of it.


----------



## Bait

Bente said:


> I've got to play the good daughter..


 :shock:


----------



## Anne Everett

*Field bitches*

Interesting that you prefer the girls Bente. So do I. They are a lot more complex than the males, that is for sure! They can be manipulative and make you want to tear your hair out - but once you get a good bitch working with you, they are hard to beat! I love their moods and quirks - guess I can relate :lol: 

We are fortunate to have some very good golden females here in the Pacific Northwest that can hold their own with the "big boys" any day.


----------



## Bubba

> my folks are coming to town and I've got to play the good daughter..


Does this mean the nose ring is out for the weekend? Best cover up a couple of them tattoos as well.

Good impressions count regards

Bubba


----------



## sometimes a great notion

Yep Anne and I got a good one. She is awsome, Paul is teaching her to sit up on her marks so that she can see them better. Sprite is coming along like a champ or at least a MH!!


----------



## Bait

Bente said:


> it would take about 2 of me :shock: to equal the size of Bait.


 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: [/quote]


----------



## Bait

Bente said:


> now I am SERIOUSLY TICKED!!! :evil: Being compared to BAIT!!!! Gawd. And now Traxx, and undoubtedly soon Randy, starts posting on this thread!! Is there no relief from these guys??:evil:


 :shock: :shock:


----------



## Judy Chute

*Goldens.."the girls"*



> Anne Everett
> Heads Up Kennels


Beautiful site! Your "girls" are not only accomplished but just beautiful to look at, wonderful heads on all. 

"Red" is absolutely drop dead gorgeous!! ..be still my heart!!!

Any chance you might move to the East Coast? ...just kidding.


----------



## Judy Chute

*"the girls"*



> enjoy seeing people reaching higher levels of field performance success with stylish Golden females. Just shows that the breed does have bottom..
> 
> bp


Great post!..and insight shared regarding training the "girls"..


----------



## Bente

Bait said:


> Bente said:
> 
> 
> 
> now I am SERIOUSLY TICKED!!! :evil: Being compared to BAIT!!!! Gawd. And now Traxx, and undoubtedly soon Randy, starts posting on this thread!! Is there no relief from these guys??:evil:
> 
> 
> 
> :shock: :shock:
Click to expand...

Oh, Bait!!! I didn't mean it THAT way!! You're a big burly guy, see? I just didn't think it was very nice of Traxx to compare you to gawky me!! 


And Bubba, be nice. They don't know about the nose ring yet and I'm trying to keep it a secret!!!! :roll: 

bp


----------



## Bente

*Re: Field bitches*



Anne Everett said:


> *I love their moods and quirks *- guess I can relate :lol:



yup. my thoughts exactly


----------



## Judy Chute

> test our dogs eyes annually, but how is their eyesight, really? Are we breeding for better eyesight or just to avoid cataracts? When we do elbows and hips, does that prevent a dog from getting arthritis anyways? If we don't train the dogs, we could avoid cruciate injuries or possible drowning . If we remove dew claws, does that protect our dogs from other toe injuries? Why remove dew claws, then? I don't anymore as I realized if we removed everything that could be injured, we might not have a dog left


Another great post...you are so right..all I have ever heard is "cataracts".. just once or twice have I heard mention of..'maybe he just does not see that well (marks). ..the comment not related to the dog possibly having cataracts because they did not. "eyes cleared".

Cruciate, possible drowning, etc..My understanding is that the better the condition of the dog..even with any issues...the better off he or she is in dealing with them..even improving the situation. 

Keeping in good "condition" certainly would make the difference in rough going in water..not only physically but good physical condition keeps the dog mentally fit, too. (right?) Seems to with my "boys"..will get into whatever you put them in and do the work. My younger Golden just holds a straight line over and under everything ) when he certainly could go around (trial situation)..fond memories here  

And, finally...the dew claws...both of my Goldens have their dew claws and hopefully when we get another pup..he or she will have theirs..I prefer it. 

Read an article a couple of years ago..need to find it or similar information..that having the dew claws removed actually encourages arthritis in the wrist (?..term)..due to the dog's natural foot movement..flexing down to the ground .. that dew claw supports the movement..

Peak Performance by M. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD says that dew claws probably do assist dog in turning..especially when bearing its weight on one front leg. At that point, even the lightest dogs, the pastern is flat on the ground, carpal pad cushions the carpal joint as it hits the ground. Dewclaw is in contact with the ground and may assis in turning by digging into the ground as the dog's leg rotates. 

We do agility too.. 8) and have there has been some incidence of dogs with arthritis in that area early in their life..starting around 5 years..becoming an issue for the dog..pain etc. I truely think that is all the jumping training plus trialing that they do..but also the dog's that I am aware of with this issue do not have their dew claws??? Just a thought but kind of makes sense to me :roll: , anyway. 

Nice to hear that you leave the dew claws on, Val!!  

It is unbelievable here in Maine right now...we have clear fields for training..this is not a normal thing. The wind was gusting NW..and it was very low temp wind chill...but great training! Yesterday, the same..I nearly froze to death but the dog was comfortable  

Attempting to removing my eyeballs from the screen to go to obedience class now... "gone to the dogs" )


----------



## Judy Chute

*"Whoa"!!*



> by Bente
> 
> Oops!..sorry!
> 
> This is my "Ranger" ..UCD HR SR Sand Dancer's XX MTB Ranger CDX, SH, TD, WCX k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=79154
> 
> He also has his first AKC Utility A leg, a first place. UKC Open B..2 legs, UKC HRC Finished 1 leg..and will be trialing AKC Master this coming summer. Only hindered by his handler last season
> 
> Finally did enter one Q at the MRTC Field Trial here in Maine this last fall..wish I had not waited so long..because he did a great job and had a great time.
> 
> My older guy, "Andi" isHR SR Scarlett's Andi O'Malley, CD, SH, OA, NJ**, WCX, CGC He is 10 1/2 now and our first Golden. He got us started in all this...
> 
> We love our hunt tests ) ... tons of fun. Compete against ourselves..and cheer everyone else on!
> 
> Best regards..
> 
> Judy, "Andi" and "Ranger", Too!


----------



## Jim Pickering

Val Ducross said:


> Hmmmm..............Risk!!!!!! I am reading so far that some folks are concerned about ... _snip_... risking that they may be challenged on their opinions, ..._snip_....
> 
> Fear!!! ..._snip_... Come on Jim, be a man, be a big cave man, take a risk. _...snip.._..
> Val


EXCUSE ME!!! I can read what you wrote, but want to be very sure what you wrote is what you intended to write!!


----------



## Val Ducross

LOL! Just teasing you big guy.  Come on now! Talk to us. You have very important thoughts we all need to hear. Some may like to add or ask questions. Many are nervous about posting at all, for whatever their reasons! We love your input  Val


----------



## Judy Chute

> LOL! Just teasing you big guy. Come on now! Talk to us. You have very important thoughts we all need to hear. Some may like to add or ask questions. Many are nervous about posting at all, for whatever their reasons! We love your input Val


Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!!


----------



## Val Ducross

On the subject of clearances I just had a flashback. I remember testing for Von Willebrands Disease many years ago. I wonder what ever happened to that one? The problem was taken seriously at that time, if I recall :? We tested both our show and field dogs then. I never hear about it anymore? I wonder why? :? Val


----------



## Siouxz

*Two Jakes*

Heh, John or Andy, Can you explain why two Jakes and what the difference, if any, is?


----------



## Judy Chute

*Jake I and Big Jake II*



> why two Jakes and what the difference, if any, is?


I think that I remember reading somewhere, .. possibly the Forum? Could that be?? ..that the only real difference between the two dogs is that Big Jake's owner..or is it a co-owner :?: , not sure :? , is a "jail bird" :shock: Please don't tell anyone I said so.. 

www.lacrosseretrievers.com/dogs/index.html#jakeII 

..well, Andy is in solid white here, black trousers, though...must be the other guy that is wearing the stripes  ohhhh, I remember, John..ummm..oh yeah, Gassner! : :shock: Really shocking, isn't it? 

Jake I's owner is totally a church going guy..will never see him with a ball and chain on  (has been said though, that he is a bit of a "strange guy from LaCrosse" ..that "spews vile about the nice folks" now and then :shock: ) 

Both Jake I and Jake II get wet...a tribute to their pedigree 8) 

Well...off with "Ranger" to agility class...a very light hearted sport  

ps..geeez, hope Chris does not lock this up :roll: ..he did say, we should all take the posts in the good spirit that they are intended (


----------



## Judy Chute

*Von Willebrand's Disease*

Hi Val, 

The GRCA has an ongoing study of hemophilia: 

www.grca.org/health/hemophilia.htm



[/u]


----------



## Val Ducross

<The GRCA has an ongoing study of hemophilia: >

Thanks Judy! Appreciate the information. Val


----------



## Guest

Val Ducross:

"As I sit whelping my third litter since December"

Val,

You obviously produce a lot of puppies and have been doing so for years. What can you share with us newbies about your secret to success in breeding? 

Who are your favorite field (trial?) dogs you have produced in the past decade and why?

Thank you.


----------



## golden boy 2

Souixz:

The difference betwee the two jakes is.....................

Jake 2 has a fan club and Jake 1 doesn't and Jake 2 won the KC retriever club Amatuer last weekend (sanctioned) and not sure where Jake 1 was.

Just send your $29.99 fan club dues to me and you will get a weekly update on the jakester!!


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## Steve Amrein

Was Andy running Jake in KC last weekend? :twisted: :wink:


----------



## Bente

golden boy 2 said:


> ...* and Jake 2 won the KC retriever club Amatuer last weekend (sanctioned)*



Congratulations!!! How many more points until his AFC? 

bp


----------



## Judy Chute

*Big Jake*



> Jake 2 won the KC retriever club Amatuer last weekend (sanctioned)
> 
> Congratulations  !!!
> 
> and ]
> 
> 
> 
> "just send your $29.99 fan club dues to me and you will get a weekly update on the jakester!!
> [/quote 8)
> 
> ...Check is on the way
> 
> Seriously...one of the Lab guys  that is in our training group...well, actually..it really is "his" training group  ..that we all are more than happy to be a part of....
> 
> Has seen Big Jake run.. and still talks about it. "That dog does not know he is a Golden" (..how insulting :evil: ) ..."thinks he is a Lab" 8) Huge compliment, very "cool"! ..considering the source. Very fussy guy..in that he is particular about what he likes in a retriever and does also judge FT's.
> 
> Came back from TX last spring..April...and just could not say enough to me about Jake...my Goldens (one of my 2 is just retired) and I are the only Golden/handler team in his group. Just to give you an idea of why he had so much to say about Jake back here..specific to Goldens.
> 
> I believe he taked with Andy at the trial ... 83 dog Amateur at the Golden Retriever Club of America All Breed Weldon Springs, MO, March 25-27..if my memory serves me correctly.
> 
> Roy Morejon and FC AFC CFC CAFC Salty Paws Missile Toe...."Kiss".
> 
> He so admires that Jake is amateur trained, too..as Roy does his "girls". I think Jake got "Kiss" on the last long mark???....Jake pinned it??..and Kiss did not quite. May be wrong here...again, memory  But Roy sure was impressed with him.
> 
> You will see him again this year...if you have not already. He and his wife, Sue, are again, in TX for the winter.
> 
> Best of Luck to Jake this season..both Jakes! Will be watching the FC results and cheering all the Goldens on!
> 
> Regards..
> 
> Judy, "Andi" and "Ranger"!
Click to expand...


----------



## Val Ducross

SicilianGolden,


That is an easy answer. Only one of our own breeding has achieved the coveted FTCH. AFTCH titles so far. So, I can safely say that she is also our favorite dog :wink: FTCH., AFTCH. Ambertrail's Special Foundation, owned and trained by George Wordock.

Not very impressive is it?  The point is we are not breeders who breed to a field trial breed standard? Our focus has been on breeding Golden Retrievers for high level hunting, whose structure not only supports that, but while trying to maintain breed integrity. We try to do this by interpreting the breed standard with hunting in mind. The amazing spillover from this mindset has been a curious and exciting journey of breed education. 

By 1986 we had owned or were breeders of 20 plus Show Champions. I counted 51 obedience titles earned by dogs we owned or produced at that time. I have totally lost count since then. We had produced the most titled Golden Retriever in the history of the breed, since de-throned but was pretty exciting then. Stitch had both Can. US Show Championships and many, many performance titles. A littermate of this great bitch, ours, was a Show Champion, CDX and was Qualified All Aged. Their dam was a Show Champion, UD and also QAA in this country. We were the breeders of a Top Obedience Golden in the country at least one year as well. This is pretty much off the top of my head. Bred Group winning dogs and owned handled one of our dogs to a Best In Show win. 

Learning how to define our breed through it's purpose has taken 33 years and has been a slow and sometimes painful process. Learning what it means to breed to the breed standard and not to a venue standard has been quite a trip! Both Mike and I even specialized for a time in our two personal venues of preference. We actually had our own breed split going on and within our own kennel. Although our dogs continued to earn titles, Mike nor I were totally satisfied with the results. 

Most breeders focus on promoting their bitches. We did things differently. We kept bringing in males and promoting, trained and/or had them trained by pros, whatever it took. It is not easy to be a breeder of Field Trial Champions if you really are stud dog owners. We have had plenty of success with the stud dogs we have had over the years. Many breeders have benefited by them and we are equally proud of these people, their clients and those accomplishments. We feel very much a part of a very big family of successful Golden Retrievers. 

As part of this journey we learned how to train our Golden Retrievers ourselves. That has been quite a long journey in and of itself. We are proud to say, I think we feel satisfied that we are now on track in our goals as breeders and trainers. Our current three brood bitches are all at least QAA level. The stud dogs we own and use are FTCH. AFTCH titled, QAA or at least have proven themselves at the Qualifying level. The structure of all dogs we have incorporated in our breeding program today are well within my interpretation of what a Golden Retriever bred for high level hunting should be. None of them are perfect, but I can tell you they are darned close in our minds. Certain faults are forgiveable to me if they do not affect a dog's ability to do it's job well. Knowing what a total package and in one dog is, has not been an easy lesson to learn, let alone acquire, until you know. That's the most difficult part of being a breeder to me. Breeding total package to total package, not breed this weak trait to that strong trait. Dogs that are successful in the field, are total packages or they would not be successful, in my mind. Certainly not in today's trials. 

Isn't it amazing that todays successful field trial dogs, still look like the original type. That such an extreme sport demands the least extreme in overall physical and mental traits to the point where breed integrity is maintained. So, three FTCH., AFTCH.'s, over ten Qualified All-age dogs later, many show, obedience and other performance titles later, we are in the early stages of a new breeding program, a new training program and a new journey in this breed, to be proud of!! Yup, we are only just beginning :-D So, to everyone who is struggling to be a breeder of Golden Retrievers, I say, you are a work in progress, so be patient, keep studying the breed, make mistakes, learn from them, be responsible for your conscious breeding decisions, don't be too hard on yourselves, have fun and stay focused on the goal! Take care for now. Val


----------



## Guest

Val Ducross said:


> Not very impressive is it?


----------



## Judy Chute

*breeding, training etc..*



> That is an easy answer. Only one of ...


 etc etc...

This is such a great post..... 

Thanks for taking the time to give this post so much thought and insight..

This kind of thread is so great for the Golden Retriever Breed..all that own Goldens should read all 18 pages. For the insight alone and to appreciate Goldens..all that goes into them...and when it does not. 

Perhaps we all could play a part in the guardianship of Goldens? ..rescue all the way up to well thought out pedigrees..


----------



## Val Ducross

SicilianGolden

So..... I guess........I won't be seeing a deposit from you on any of our litters anytime soon then....... 8) :wink: :lol: 

This person, male or female, newbie, so he or she claims is not impressed by accomplishments or information gained as breeders, like us, who have experienced many trials than tribulations, over the years. I don't know anything about this person and wish him/her a successful journey in this breed. I apologize to the hunt test folks as I failed to mention titles earned in this great venue in my last post. Every performance title has been important to us, whether earned by us, or others. Thank you all for contributing. This has been more information to us as breeders, in which to help make sound and conscious breeding decisions over the years. 

Since choosing to leave the show game, which, by the way, was the easiest game for me to play in and best for my 'ego' as I rarely came out of the ring without ribbons, let alone points and/or titled! Then, to go into the field trial game and learn about that venue through more personal contact with the dogs. What a rude awakening! Perhaps more for Mike than I. There, one receives little validation, even of good work done. Only a few get ribbons. To that, I say.........now I know why there is such a huge population of Golden Retriever people hanging tight to the show venue ;-) Why our breed is being defined by them due to those great numbers and their voice. Not by those who are truly working at trying to maintain breed integrity. Little or no validation even among some peers, and sometimes between countries :-( . Unless you have a titled bitch and a market in which to sell her puppies, showcase them, you are basically invisible. I hope this is not true! Hopefully, an attitude held by just a few. 

One FTCH. AFTCH. bitch did not impress this one person, nor the other QAA bitches we bred and or breed from. I did not expound on the hunt test titles earned and apologize again. I doubt that would impress this one person anyways. 

Judy read my post and got a completely different view. She understood.... it don't come easy, it don't come cheap or without other costs, besides money. We need each other. We need to support each other. Staying power in this breed takes guts, a thick skin, courage and a strong desire to prove this breed and the dogs working, and honour them as they should be. And....within a game which is dominated by a breed and gene pool which has a tremendous advantage over breeds like ours. Again, I say thank you to the Labrador world for helping those of us in these minority breeds to maintain and develop a high standard of work ethic and talent in our dogs. We owe you big!!!! 

Mike and I, for whatever reasons, chose to learn about the field game through potential male stud dogs......Why? It would have been much easier, not to mention better for our ego's, to focus on bitches we owned or produced in those earlier years. Afterall we are breeders, right....but we live in a remote area in which this breed is not just a minority, but the few who were out there that were truly great ones were even fewer and farther between. How does one study a breed, not just one dog or maybe two, if studying the breed is important to get where we are aimed? Is that important? What makes a great dog in the field? What makes a great Golden Retriever for the field? What makes a great Golden Retriever breeder, trainer? What makes a great Golden Retriever, period! That is for each of us to decide for ourselves. 

The fast track way of getting recognized as a good breeder of field trial goldens, is to have titled bitches to start with. A stud dog and it's owner get less recognition for their part. That is just life. A great bitch that is titled will reap the benefits and should. But, without those stud dogs to compliment and contribute, there would be no breeders!!!!!!! Let alone breeders of distinction. If you want to be famous, don't have males, only titled bitches is the easy answer. If you have titled bitches, you better find a market, because buyers are really hard to come by in a minority breed. If you find the right buyers, you better be sure they know how to train them properly, or even those potentially great puppies will wash up and there goes the reputation. In any venue of choice, you are a hero one day and a bum the next! Being a breeder, is a bitch!!! :-D Pun intended!

In our earlier days we rocked and reaped the benefits of a few great bitches in our interests at the time. Then, we wanted more, whatever that meant. Sucked for many years while exploring and studying this breed deeper. Our clients were happy as heck, but we were not. Something was seriously missing. We decided to explore this breed further and through the field.......Why was that important and what did we learn? 

The game gave us a barometer in which to judge who was strong and who was weak overall among the dogs kept, male or female, whether we bred them or bought them. There is no better game than field trials and hunt tests in which to help us interested make sound breeding decisions, whether you are a breeder or stud dog owner of Golden Retrievers. It is a game that makes you have to face the intricasies of the breed, of each dog. Every trait, on every level, every training mistake, every training method, every clearance pass or failure. If you are a breeder, you have to face other things, like overall health, longevity, whelping and caring for puppies, clients and you must face the decisions you made, one way or another. People come and go in this breed and in particular, this game, any game for that matter. We have developed a fast food mentality, perhaps. Who knows ;-) And......this is the fast track way of becoming good breeders!!! :twisted: 8) 

But...... who has remained, in spite of breed prejudices. Who, in spite of disappointments and a hand full of successes have remained fast and true to the breed, is perhaps most intriguing. Regardless of information, results of past experiences, yet, remain..... positive and true to a minority breed and it's future? I honour you and continually encourage newbies to carry on as well! This is Mike's daily quote! "Illigitimi non Carborundum!!" Miriam knows what this means? :wink: Have fun guys!  Let me know if I am wasting my time, cause spring cleaning is screaming my name these days, not to mention Like, Vegas! :lol: :shock:  8) Val


----------



## Judy Chute

*Val's Spring cleaning..*



> Let me know if I am wasting my time,
> 
> 
> 
> ... ( :shock: ) ..
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> cause spring cleaning is screaming my name these days....
Click to expand...

Goodness, keep posting, print it all off and hire a publisher...put a price on the history of your experience, your expertise..and good advise  

.........and Hire a Cleaning Person..!! (the book profits will easily take care of that expense 8) ..very, very Cool!)

..what is more, who cares about a post with a quote..but lack of response from the "postee" (is that right) Perhaps they forgot to continue on.. with their thoughts or at least a respectable response. ..perhaps forth coming? Certainly hope so..

In the mean time, the rest of us are reaping the rewards of more invaluable conversation about out Goldens. 

..this one tugged at my heart  .. 


> Staying power in this breed takes guts, a thick skin, courage and a strong desire to prove this breed and the dogs working, and honour them as they should be


 ..this could not be more true. 

Thanks, Val...

Judy


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Huh?

No responses in the twenty-four hours since I was last able to come up for air on exam/marking week? Shame. This thread has been terrific and a model, it seems to me, of good internet....passionate, civil, opinionated. When people got their particular panties in a wad, they dropped out for awhile, but came back with measured, informed response.
Great stuff! Unfortunately, I can't add much but questions......

so......is the list after the COI on k9data the list of "likely" offenders if the meanies show up.....or the white hats for that matter....or is it grossly more complex? (a little more complex, I could handle....)

Inquiring minds regards,

Ted


----------



## Judy Chute

*Field Goldens..integrity*

...


> The structure of all dogs we have incorporated in our breeding program today are well within my interpretation of what a Golden Retriever bred for high level hunting should be. None of them are perfect," ....." Certain faults are forgiveable to me if they do not affect a dog's ability to do it's job well. Knowing what a total package and in one dog is, has not been an easy lesson to learn, let alone acquire, until you know. That's the most difficult part of being a breeder to me. Breeding total package to total package, not breed this weak trait to that strong trait. Dogs that are successful in the field, are total packages or they would not be successful, in my mind. Certainly not in today's trials.
> 
> Isn't it amazing that todays successful field trial dogs, still look like the original type. That such an extreme sport demands the least extreme in overall physical and mental traits to the point where breed integrity is maintained.
> 
> 
> 
> ..just so another 24 hours does not go by without a response...
> 
> The entire post by Val is just so interesting...I thought so very, very interesting is in the final paragraph "today's successful field trial dogs, still look like the original type"...also "such an extreme sport demands the least extreme in overall physical and mental traits to the point where breed integrity is mainained.."
> 
> Pictures of the great Field Goldens that I have found over the years of owning our two Goldens..and I have printed off to save in a folder..(many are in my Goldens pedigree..and I am truly grateful for that)..are indeed impressive and really hard to take my eyes off. That this integrity in the breed has been maintained in the successful Field Golden is such an impressive fact... a tribute to the working Golden..and their breeders.
> 
> Wish I knew the answer to Ted's question..need to go look ..I thought this had been addressed in an earlier post?
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

Ted Hilfiker said:


> so......is the list after the COI on k9data the list of "likely" offenders if the meanies show up.....or the white hats for that matter....or is it grossly more complex?


Ted, Ted, Ted,

You and your COIs. :roll: :wink: If it were up to me, I would seriously consider removing the entire COI function from k9data. As I have said time and time again, there simply is no substitute to knowing the dogs in the pedigree.

I have an example of a specific dog:

10-generation COI	4.43%
12-generation COI	4.95%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton OS/FDHF	1.78% [lived to be 16.5]
AFC Holway Barty OS	1.04% [lived to almost 11]
Poika of Handjem OS	0.32% [lived to 14]
Valentine Torch of Topbrass WC OD	0.29% [lived to 13]
CH Little Joe Of Tigathoe *** OS [lived to be 13]

Low COI, lots of longevity in those top contributors. Looks great, right?

Sadly, "Brandy" lost her battle with lymphosarcoma and died yesterday.   

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=59451

Her sire died of lympho at 5. His grandsire died of lympho at 5 (well, actually died from chemo while being treated for lympho). And his sire died at 7 of cancer.

I am curious as to what value the COI has truly offered anyone reading this thread? If you have examples of how these calculations have contributed in any significant manner, there are probably plenty of folks interested in hearing them.

Melanie


----------



## glnbrgold

On the topic of COI's... I just stumbled on a new web site a bit ago and found this of interest. http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/COI.html If you scroll down you will find other links listed with statistical data. 

Frankly, I have not had time to sort through all the data there, so won't pretend to draw a conclusion. However, thought others might be interested. 

Deb


----------



## Judy Chute

*COI's*



> I would seriously consider removing the entire COI function from k9data. As I have said time and time again, there simply is no substitute to knowing the dogs in the pedigree.


Perhaps it is time to do just that...  

..and it is a good thing that there are Golden people, as yourself, that take the enormous amount of time and effort to know the dogs in the pedigree that they are considering breeding ... 

So sad..despite everyone's efforts to do the right thing by their Goldens..


----------



## John Gassner

Deb, Judy,

I like looking at the COI. However, as Melanie has mentioned, people get too hung up on COI. COI is not a very good tool. It can't tell you whcih genes get passed from one dog to the next. It doesn't even tell you how many times a particular dog is in a pedigree. 

http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/COI.html website has some ineresting stats. Worth checking out! 

Obviously knowing your pedigrees is more of an art form (with some science thrown in). Certain lines do tend to have abnormally high occurances of cancer. Other lines, even when very tight don't. 

Same thing can be said for the other health and performance issues. COIs are about as useful as using drawings by a five year old to ID different animals!

Be careful with statistics. They can be very misleading.

I know of two dogs from the same litter. The first one won every Specialty Derby he entered. The other was 0 for 2. Which dog is the better field dog? Which had a better Derby career? Without all the info, stats can be misleading.


John


----------



## glnbrgold

John said, 


> I like looking at the COI.


Actually, you won't get an argument from me. I also use COI's and find them useful. In fact, I have my own data base (which is no substitute for K9 data, but does allow me to play).

I also agree with you, Melanie and others who have stated that COI's are no substitute for knowing the dogs, the history behind the dogs, and what those dogs produced in terms of health, working ability, longevity and conformation. However, when you are new to breeding, or new to the lines you are moving into, those COI's may need to take on greater significance. 

I am moving out of conformation lines where I have contacts, mentors and a knowledge of the skeletons behind my own and other lines, into the peformance lines where it is all one big black hole. It takes awhile figure out where to go and how to get there. Until I am feeling more grounded, I will most likely place a higher emphasis on COI's then I normally would. 

I have just spent the last hour going over the stats on the Undeniable web site. Interesting stuff, and while not a substitute for knowing the dogs, does provide additional information for those who are hooked on the art and science of breeding. 

Deb


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Melanie....

Awww, you know I just did it so you could scold me :wink: OK, so what you, Val, Jim, et.al. are saying is that I have to bug every field golden breeder on the planet to cough up the info on every dog, right? I'm up for it actually, just wanted to have someone to blame it on when people tell me to shove it..... 8) There never is (sigh) any substitute for hard work. Nice to get ya back in this thread, by the way.

Big hug to Pony regards,

Ted


----------



## Jim Pickering

First, my condolences to Janet and Brian Hatheway for their loss of their Brandy.



John Gassner said:


> http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/COI.html website has some ineresting stats. Worth checking out!
> John


Interesting, yes
Accurate, not entirely
Out of date, definitely
Misleading, definitely



> Certain lines do tend to have abnormally high occurances of cancer. Other lines, even when very tight don't.


John, can you give me an example or two that you can support with fact? Anybody? I do not mean to be a smart azz but I hear the same comment often and have never found anyone who could support it. Maybe an easier question would be, what is the normal occurrence rate?



> I know of two dogs from the same litter. The first one won every Specialty Derby he entered. The other was 0 for 2. Which dog is the better field dog? Which had a better Derby career? Without all the info, stats can be misleading.


OK I give up. Can't be Jake and Jake.


----------



## John Gassner

Jim, I agree with you about the stats.

I'm not half the student you are when it comes to all things Golden. With that said, it has been my observation that certain dogs i.e. "Barty" that many folks try to blame for all things bad with field Goldens. He is in most field pedigrees, so he is a big target. 

One thing I have heard many times over the years is how lining up on Barty carries with it health problems. My experience is quite the contrary.

My Barty grand daughter lived past 15 and was very healthy till the end. She had several litters that were doubled up on Barty with healthy dogs in the 13-15 year range.

I know this is generalizing. I'm just trying to point out that even with a high COI or linebreeding you can still have very good and healthy dogs.

Similarly certain dogs have shown to have offspring that is more prone to things such as cancer. You don't even need to line them up.

Unfortunately Zeke is such a dog. I don't know what in his litter's past caused it, but I feel it's there. Zeke pups, grandpups, and in my case pups from a Zeke littermate.

I was set to breed to Zeke and had made all the arrangements when Mr. Glenn told me the news. After much consuting with most of the heavy hitters at that time I found out about a littermate in Alaska. I shipped the bitch there and had some very nice puppies. My MH out of that litter lived till 9 yrs. Other littermates started getting cancer at 4,5 and 6 years of age. At least two are still alive out of that litter and are now 11.

As talented as Zeke was and as much as he brings to the table with his incredible field abilites, one cannot overlook what I feel is an unacceptable elevated risk in cancer in his progeny.

I guess that sums it up for me. I know this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not here to shred dogs or build them up. Just trying to participate in an open and honest dialog.

BTW I didn't say the stats in my example were right or wrong. Just misleading! I'm sure if this were a real example, that BOTH dogs would be very nice. :wink: 


John


----------



## Klamath Hunting Gold

This has been such a wonderful thread.

COI's.....
A useful TOOL. However, there is NO LINK between a high COI and cancer or anything else.... perhaps I read a post wrong but that is the way I interpreted the remark. The COI only is a statistical measure of how much "like blood" is being mixed (perhaps remixed is a better term). Really that is all that it is.

This is my lay opinion... a high COI could be interpreted as a warning sign...perhaps more like a cautionary sign. I guess what I am getting at is that there are some breedings going on hoping to "strengthen" certain traits. The danger here is that there is NO GUARANTEE that the desired trait is the one that will be strengthened. The strengthening could be actually occuring on the undesirable traits (like thyroid, hips, elbows, bad breath or what have you).

I find the longevity information to be some of the most useful information on the K9data site. It is so nice to look at the longevity line in certain pedigrees and be somewhat reassured of the overall health of a family of dogs.

Case in point... I was researching a breeding as a prospective buyer last summer. Everything looked soooo good and I was about to send the deposit. I hit the longevity line and found out that the sires side didnt have a dog over the age of 8 (with 2 dying in the 5 to 6 ageclass). Bad string of car accidents???? or was there something else going on. A phone call to the breeder resulted in a hang up... apparently she didnt want to answer the questions. Perhaps she should not be a breeder.

I absolutely applaud those breeders and owners of dogs that disclose all of the information they can. For instance, I found an entry on K9data advising that a dog had died of sarcoma. I found it so reassuring that this breeder had the guts to disclose the truth. I would either buy from that breeder or refer a buyer to them in a heartbeat (ofcourse if the breeding was out of a different dog).

To sum my little point up... COI's, Hips, eyes, longevity, field ability, temperment, thyroid, and on and on are all just pieces to the puzzle. They all need to be looked at for a good decision making process. They all need to be looked at for breeding and for buying.

Just my two and a half cents worth... see you at the National...I'll be the goof helping to park cars.
RGH


----------



## LH

Hi!

I am not a geneticist, have tried to understand some more about genetics. 

One reason for maintaining a low degree of inbreeding as far as I have understood is that breeds needs to have a good genetic variation in the genes of the Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC). The MHC serves the function of defending against disease. More in link below. 

From the article:

"As a consequence, a relatively large, and growing, body of empirical data now exists in non-model species examining levels of diversity at both class I and class II MHC genes, the evolutionary relationships among MHC alleles, and causative links between MHC diversity and parasite load, mate choice, individual fitness and lifetime reproductive success." 



http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v...l;jsessionid=30182FB659679D0A002EF6F09056E09F


There are studies indicating that animals choose mating partners aimed to increase genetic diversity of the MHC-complex.


----------



## Jim Pickering

LindaH said:


> From the article:
> "As a consequence, a relatively large, and growing, body of empirical data now exists in non-model species examining levels of diversity at both class I and class II MHC genes, the evolutionary relationships among MHC alleles, and causative links between MHC diversity and parasite load, mate choice, individual fitness and lifetime reproductive success."


*Say what????* If anyone can translate this into English for Dummies, I would certainly appreciate.


----------



## Judy Chute

> studies indicating that animals choose mating partners aimed to increase genetic diversity of the MHC-complex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...so, as a matter of evolutionary survival..as in the wild....where they do have a choice (vs controlled breeding by humans)..among their own species, there is the instinct to choose..to "increase genetic diversity etc" ..and research is now beginning to document just how complex the selection that animals make is? I don't know...going to go to the site given ... sure is interesting, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...causative links between MHC diversity and parasite load, mate choice, individual fitness and lifetime reproductive success."
Click to expand...

That is, to reproduce only the strongest, most fit..and offspring that will not inherit even disease..have great immune system, ability to thwart off disease, infections...that breeding animal would not have a "weak link" to pass on..or cause it to not have "a lifetime of reproductive success"??? 

I was hoping Jim would explain


----------



## Judy Chute

I sure would appreciate a translation to "English for Dummies, too"


----------



## glnbrgold

I won't attempt a translation, but did notice the study was done on plants, not animals. 

However, there are some researchers that have looked at the correlation of longevity and COI's in dogs (breed specific) and have noted a tendancy towards a shortened life span with a higher COI. One of the graph's on the Undeniable web site shows the same trend.

Deb


----------



## John Gassner

Jim and Judy, It's quite simple really. The folks on the other side of the Pond just spell things funny.

Linda is trying to GDG this thread with some political commentary. 

She's saying that the Emperor is big and fat, but still managed to get a date with some girl (although she's no model).

He's taking some classes with her at the University (diversity). He wants to check out how she looks in her new jeans.

He would like this to turn into (evolve) a serious relationship (steady date). 

He wants to take her out and get her drunk by drinking a lot of beers/ales (alleles). Then he wants to take advantage of her drunken condition and have casual sex (causative links).

If he catches anything from this little union (parasites), he's going to work out and get really physically fit and find some other girl to live happily ever after with and try and make babies 'til the day he dies.

Either that or they have a bunch of info on a bunch of dogs and think they can tell by the amount of outcross vs. inbreeding, a lot about the offspring and their health.

glad i could help make sense of all this :lol: 


John


----------



## Judy Chute

*language barrier...*

Oh, ok....got it. Why didn't you say so in the first place? ..let me go on and on...  :roll:


Can someone turn the page...pleeeese (


----------



## LH

This seams to be a good source of genetic info:

http://www.nbii.gov/issues/biodiversity/genetic.html


----------



## bjlokey

*why blame barty*



John Gassner said:


> With that said, it has been my observation that certain dogs i.e. "Barty" that many folks try to blame for all things bad with field Goldens. He is in most field pedigrees, so he is a big target.


I have heard this said often. Please enlighten me why is it said.
I got my first field golden, who was out of AFC Benjaamin Rajah Frisbie, in 1978 when Barty was still with us and running. He was just a name then and I think he gained fame through his offspring. 

So what are the circumstances that make people blame Barty.


----------



## LH

More genestuff:

http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/breeds/goldenretriever2.htm

http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm


http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/biology/CBCN/genetics/mac_smpop2.htm


http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/disorders/whataregd/multi.cfm


http://www.workingdogs.com/genetics.htm

http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570143.html

http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics.html


http://www.nature.com/nature/journa...l;jsessionid=D19CC59A5D515ABB8AA97E437601DDC9

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/relevance/IIIA2Lowvariation.shtml


----------



## Swampcollie

*Re: why blame barty*



bjlokey said:


> So what are the circumstances that make people blame Barty.


Pick something, anything, that is a undesireable trait in a dog and Barty will be blamed for producing it. It's just "Popular Sire" syndrome.


----------



## Jim Pickering

John Gassner said:


> glad i could help make sense of all this :lol:
> John


Thanks!! Now I understand!!


----------



## Criquetpas

Before Labs B.F I owned and trained Goldens for about 25 years. Had what the GRCA people call a OD that was sired by Barty out of Chief Sands bitch, that was a long time ago . Recently looked at some Golden pedigrees and Barty shows up six or seven times . Maybe he was bred too many times to tight pedigrees? "Ben", owned one out of him, didn't as I recall have much behind him in his pedigree except he did produce I believe the top Derby dog who died shortly afterwards, just a thought.
Barty was a producer, but, with it comes the same old story as the Lab people complain about, who do you go to after Tank, Maxx, Harley etc?

Maybe thats why Barty is blamed for everything including the sinking of the Titanic.


----------



## Bente

Regarding COI..

.. assuming closer breedings result in less variation within the litter, i.e. more consistent puppies .. 

.. and you are striving to produce a litter in which all the pups should be able to achieve QAA status..

.. isn't COI a useful tool to help chose between possible breedings?.. if chosing between two studs who compliment the working abilities of the bitch, have temperaments in keeping with the breed and have the desired clearances, and both stud lines have produced well with the dominant dogs in the bitches lines... would you not be more inclined to chose the pairing with a higher COI, provided it's not TOO high??

.. or does COI not mean anything in this case ?.. 

bp


----------



## Latisha

Jim Pickering said:


> LindaH said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the article:
> "As a consequence, a relatively large, and growing, body of empirical data now exists in non-model species examining levels of diversity at both class I and class II MHC genes, the evolutionary relationships among MHC alleles, and causative links between MHC diversity and parasite load, mate choice, individual fitness and lifetime reproductive success."
> 
> 
> 
> *Say what????* If anyone can translate this into English for Dummies, I would certainly appreciate.
Click to expand...

I like this version. It was even written for dog people. 

http://www.ashgi.org/articles/immune_rising_storm.htm

Latisha


----------



## bjlokey

*Re: why blame barty*

[quote="Swampcollie] It's just "Popular Sire" syndrome.[/quote]

Poor Barty has been dead for 24 years. And is really the number of times he was bred or just that he was such a good producer of performance dogs that his get where also bred often...


----------



## Jim Pickering

caliber said:


> I like this version. It was even written for dog people.
> 
> http://www.ashgi.org/articles/immune_rising_storm.htm
> 
> Latisha


Thanks Laticha. Much easier to read, but I have to admit that I enjoyed John translations better.


----------



## Jim Pickering

Criquetpas said:


> Before Labs B.F I owned and trained Goldens for about 25 years. Had what the GRCA people call a OD that was sired by Barty out of Chief Sands bitch, that was a long time ago.


That must have been *Marshland's Lucky Trick OD* (AFC Holway Barty OS x Woodridges Fabulous Fanny **), and littermate to slightly more famous Woodridge's Hannah OD.

And for those of you who like tight breeding check out the Topbrass breeding of Topbrass Cotton to Woodridge?s Hann, as in Barty Son x Barty Daughter.



> Recently looked at some Golden pedigrees and Barty shows up six or seven times.


Six or seven is not many times by today?s standard. There are a number of Goldens with Barty in their pedigree 12 times within six generations. Not saying that is bad depending on what gets added to the gene mix. However, unless there are a few more Ponys that come along the next generation will have Barty 24 times within seven generations, then 48 times within eight generations. Good or Bad? If you go back another 12-15 generations you will likely find Speedwell Pluto 50 times in the pedigree of every AKC registered Golden show or field.



> "Ben", owned one out of him, didn't as I recall have much behind him in his pedigree except he did produce I believe the top Derby dog who died shortly afterwards, just a thought.


Pardon my ignorance, but who is Ben and which top derby dog? Just curious.



> Barty was a producer, but, with it comes the same old story as the Lab people complain about, who do you go to after Tank, Maxx, Harley etc?
> Maybe thats why Barty is blamed for everything including the sinking of the Titanic.


Would you believe that Barty is even responsible for screwing up Golden ears? I actually had someone inquire about a puppy then change his mind with the reason being that his wife not have a Golden with, ?The Barty ear set.?


----------



## Guest

Mr. Pickering,

I believe you know the answer to this. Ben's Enchanted Budweiser:

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=29462

The only Golden with more Derby points than Peach if I am not mistaken?


----------



## John Gassner

I'm personally still mad at Barty for causing Global Warming.

John


----------



## Guest

Heck, I'm mad at him for my beer warming. Go get me a cold one, Pone!


----------



## Criquetpas

Jim Pickering said:


> Criquetpas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before Labs B.F I owned and trained Goldens for about 25 years. Had what the GRCA people call a OD that was sired by Barty out of Chief Sands bitch, that was a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> That must have been *Marshland's Lucky Trick OD* (AFC Holway Barty OS x Woodridges Fabulous Fanny **), and littermate to slightly more famous Woodridge's Hannah OD.
> 
> And for those of you who like tight breeding check out the Topbrass breeding of Topbrass Cotton to Woodridge?s Hann, as in Barty Son x Barty Daughter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recently looked at some Golden pedigrees and Barty shows up six or seven times.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Six or seven is not many times by today?s standard. There are a number of Goldens with Barty in their pedigree 12 times within six generations. Not saying that is bad depending on what gets added to the gene mix. However, unless there are a few more Ponys that come along the next generation will have Barty 24 times within seven generations, then 48 times within eight generations. Good or Bad? If you go back another 12-15 generations you will likely find Speedwell Pluto 50 times in the pedigree of every AKC registered Golden show or field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Ben", owned one out of him, didn't as I recall have much behind him in his pedigree except he did produce I believe the top Derby dog who died shortly afterwards, just a thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, but who is Ben and which top derby dog? Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barty was a producer, but, with it comes the same old story as the Lab people complain about, who do you go to after Tank, Maxx, Harley etc?
> Maybe thats why Barty is blamed for everything including the sinking of the Titanic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would you believe that Barty is even responsible for screwing up Golden ears? I actually had someone inquire about a puppy then change his mind with the reason being that his wife not have a Golden with, ?The Barty ear set.?
Click to expand...

Opps! I better go back to my black dogs Sorry! I was just browsing.


----------



## Jim Pickering

Melanie Foster said:


> Mr. Pickering,
> 
> I believe you know the answer to this. Ben's Enchanted Budweiser:
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=29462
> 
> The only Golden with more Derby points than Peach if I am not mistaken?


I know about Ben's Enchanted Budweiser, 66 derby points, all time high for a Golden, and the only Golden to have earned more points than The Peach.   

However, Earl was talking about Barty offspring. Ben was not a Barty son and, in fact, had not Barty in his pedigree, which is why I asked. :? 

BTW, the story I heard but cannot confirm is that Ben died under anisthisia while having his hips x-rayed for OFA.


----------



## D Osborn

*chose a pup*

Bored..
You have two puppies. 6.5 weeks old. One retrieves well, the other not as well, but is a little bolder. Birds not an issue. Both are independent. A friend said if they were labs she would run from them, as she would be chasing him down all the time  But in a golden it is nice. Pedigree is nice-my Whistler/Shimmer. These are not "busy" puppies, they are thinking puppies. Thank goodness they got that from their mother. :roll: 
My ONLY reservation (other than I do not want three dogs) is the one that retrieves is smaller, and not as pretty. All the others are great looking.
If I keep one, my gut says take the small one. The 6 year old I babysit for :shock: picked him out too

NOW-what dog disappeared out of the back yard in California? Red Devil?


Thanks for any input :wink:


Look-we are up to 20 pages :twisted:


----------



## John Gassner

Jim, Ben was used as a stud dog. Was this done without OFA, or were they just trying for a higher rating?

Demi, I would try to evaluate the pups more. I would really wait with the final decision until 7 weeks old. If the little girl still stands out, then I would make kennel space.

John


----------



## Criquetpas

Jim Pickering said:


> Melanie Foster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Pickering,
> 
> I believe you know the answer to this. Ben's Enchanted Budweiser:
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=29462
> 
> The only Golden with more Derby points than Peach if I am not mistaken?
> 
> 
> 
> I know about Ben's Enchanted Budweiser, 66 derby points, all time high for a Golden, and the only Golden to have earned more points than The Peach.
> 
> However, Earl was talking about Barty offspring. Ben was not a Barty son and, in fact, had not Barty in his pedigree, which is why I asked. :?
> 
> BTW, the story I heard but cannot confirm is that Ben died under anisthisia while having his hips x-rayed for OFA.
Click to expand...

I am sorry went back and read my post it is confusing. (My heart is still with Goldens by the way ,my daughter has three and I partake in the training) Benjamin Rajah Frisbie known as Ben is out of Red Rajah of Mission and Puffer Belle of Dutchess etc. I have his five generation in front of me I find no titles except in the fifth generation and then it goes back to Dual Ch Stilrovin Rips Pride etc.on the sire's side and a bench champion CH Golden Cloud Flash. Budweiser according to Darrel Frisbie subcumbed at home from complications for his OFA as memory serves me. I have RFTN when he made National Derby Ch. I owned a dog that didn't amount to much out of Ben and a Sauk Creek Sassie Lassie breeder Mary Newell. DOB/May 4 1976. 

My point was,Barty gets blamed for everything. Barbra Howard had a deposit on a QAA bitch I had at the time and when she didn't take (I think she had a deposit on a couple of others too) Story is then Barty came across the pond. I had Barbra's letters for years and often told everyone I was the one who brought Barty here, as my breeding didn't take :lol: Of course it's a joke! 

I did a lot of training with Lew Daniels , threw a lot of birds for "Sparky"
AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX and beat my brains out with one of his sons for years trying to get his AFC, had the win but couldn't get the rest of the points. So I do have respect for Barty as a producer. Jim I have great respect for your accomplishments!! Now back to my black dogs.


----------



## D Osborn

Hi John,
Good point. I am taking them to Florida this weekend, and might see more. Or less. Unfortunately the little one is a boy.  But he will grow.
Wish I could stand to have a girl. There is a really nice one.
Interesting litter. Got more than I expected. :shock:


----------



## glnbrgold

Criquetpas wrote: 


> I owned a dog that didn't amount to much out of Ben and a Sauk Creek Sassie Lassie breeder Mary Newell.


I noticed that K9data has no background information on Sauk Creek Sassie Lassie. Any chance you could fill in some of the blanks? I hate seeing some of this historical information lost to posterity. 

Deb


----------



## Bente

Criquetpas said:


> I did a lot of training with Lew Daniels , threw a lot of birds for "Sparky"
> AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX



What was Sparky like? As I'm sure you know, he is found in many of the field Golden pedigrees, including my girl's..

bp


----------



## Judy Chute

What was Sparky like?

I would love to know, too..

My younger Golden's great-grandfather, FC-AFC Sunfire's XX Buckshot **OS, FDHF sire is "Sparky". 

Printed the wonderful picture of him for our scrapbook. 
www.topbrass-retrievers.com/sparky.htm

Will look forward to a post on this inquiry!!


----------



## Criquetpas

Bente said:


> Criquetpas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did a lot of training with Lew Daniels , threw a lot of birds for "Sparky"
> AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What was Sparky like? As I'm sure you know, he is found in many of the field Golden pedigrees, including my girl's..
> 
> bp
Click to expand...

Sparky wasn't seriously field trained until he was 18 months old. He became QAA when he was about 4 years old. Everyone in our training group kept pushing Lew to run him in the all-age. So he began. Lew was in exceptionaly great physical condition. He would put Sparky on a remote sit run out ,plant five blinds sometimes 300 yards or more come back and Sparky would line the blinds. (unfortunately Sparky didnot take overs when he should) He was a lining machine though. He sent him on get-um for marks, back for his blinds. He did obedience trials in the winter though his CDX. He was not a true e-collar dog. The collar was used as a sort of punishment tool with direct pressure. Sparky could handle pressure!! The main thing about Sparky he loved to play the game . He was Lew's first and only trial dog!! He won a double header.
Sparky did have a difficult time with short retired guns. I don't think Lew ever taught Sparky to take a over or to check up on a short retired gun.
He loved to go long. A divorce and some financial problems kept Lew from going any further with the dog. He had a very short all-age career.


----------



## Jim Pickering

John Gassner said:


> Jim, Ben was used as a stud dog. Was this done without OFA, or were they just trying for a higher rating?
> John


Good point, John. I did say unconfirmed, but I should have checked. Obviously incorrect information given that his OFA certificate was issued 1/82 and he was bred several months later. Thans for correcting me.


----------



## Criquetpas

Judy Chute said:


> What was Sparky like?
> 
> I would love to know, too..
> 
> My younger Golden's great-grandfather, FC-AFC Sunfire's XX Buckshot **OS, FDHF sire is "Sparky".
> 
> Printed the wonderful picture of him for our scrapbook.
> www.topbrass-retrievers.com/sparky.htm
> 
> Will look forward to a post on this inquiry!!


Buckshot's trainer/owner lurks on this forum maybe you can coax him out!
Buckshot and his group are a old whos who!


----------



## LH

Melanie Foster said:


> Mr. Pickering,
> 
> I believe you know the answer to this. Ben's Enchanted Budweiser:
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=29462
> 
> The only Golden with more Derby points than Peach if I am not mistaken?


Hi!

Is this dogs offspring/ancestors still in the FT breeding lines?


----------



## Judy Chute

*Ben's Enchanted Budweiser..*



> Is this dogs offspring/ancestors still in the FT breeding lines?



..here is just one site that I followed back on the K9 Data link whose lines go back to Ben's Enchanted Budweiser...beautiful Goldens. Lots of pictures. 


www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=29790 is 
Maxhavens Frisbie Minuette JH (1/8/1996-)

Maxhavens site is: 

members.iphouse.com/maxhaven/mhindex.htm

I did see success in Derby, MH etc on some of the Offspring as I went back on Ben's line. Did this quickly, there must be much more!! Very interesting.


----------



## Jim Pickering

LindaH said:


> Melanie Foster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Pickering,
> 
> I believe you know the answer to this. Ben's Enchanted Budweiser:
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=29462
> 
> The only Golden with more Derby points than *Peach* if I am not mistaken?
> 
> 
> 
> Is this dogs offspring/ancestors still in the FT breeding lines?
Click to expand...

Are you asking about Ben or Peach?   

Assuming you are asking about Ben, yes, but you will do better following the genes via two littermates, Pacapooches Pandemonium to AFC Topbrass Super Trooper and Trooper granddaughter, Frisbie?s Rollie Kate *** OR Ben?s Enchanted Michelob to Harold Bruninga's FC-AFC Sangamo Red, Dandy Boy Red *** and AFC Little Fever.

Or for the fans of line breeding check out Sangamo Red x Willow Run Cracker. This appears to be a breeding done at Rockerin kennels. I do not know that Joseph McCann is a RTN member but I believe there are friends and associates here. Maybe we can get some input about the pups from this breeding even if second hand.


----------



## John Gassner

I am told that Joseph mostly lurks here. He delegates the typing to Chris Payne, his assistant.


John


----------



## Judy Chute

*"Peach"...*

..well, I just can't hold back on this one...

Should not her 54 Derby Points be listed as an Honorifics on K9 Data? 

" * Peach earned 54 derby points making her the all time high point derby Golden bitch (AKC Field Trial); only one Golden male, Ben's Enchanted Budweiser, earned more derby points in US derby stakes. "

* 9 All Age Points to date.

I just became aware of Jim's wonderful site for his Ida Red Golden Retrievers..   I am the "queen" of humble  

...my most sincere Congratulations to Jim and AFC Ida Red's Uncloudy Day on their success at the '05 GRCA National in Gettysburg. A fourth in Open All-Age and AM Jam...and both of her Trophy Awards. 

...a Golden that is going the extra mile her entire life... now, that's impressive. A tribute to "Sunshine" and her handler...

Jim, as Pat S. recently put it to me.. 

"It is all about doing something with the beast you are dancing with." 

Using her words because in one of your posts you mentioned that you did not earn trophies..the dog did... However, I feel that you both have earned all your success...because it is truly a "dance" of two..the dog and the handler. 

So..what a "dance" you are having with your Goldens!! Again, Congratulations on all!!

Judy, "Andi" and "Ranger"


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Oh, Yeah!!!! I'm struck dumb and drooling by this stuff. *Please* keep it coming. I'm cutting and pasting as fast as I can. With a sense of where we're coming from, it's going to make it much easier to figure out where I'm going.......

One-thousand thank youse all regards.....

Ted


----------



## Bente

No one has expounded about breeding close, or not ..
(a possible use for COI numbers?)

Anyone with any thoughts? Do you like line breeding, or not, or "it depends"? 

And which lines do you like to see combined, which combinations have had a higher than normal production of good working Goldens?

And which lines that haven't yet been combined would you like to see paired??


Bente (just trying to keep this thread going :wink: )


----------



## LH

Ok, more questions: which "outcrosses" with more of less different from FT bloodlines have been successful in recent years?

In which way are specifically obedience bred Goldens different from specifically FT/HT bred Goldens?

Are there any very dual bred FT/HT/Obedience/Show Goldens?

In which way is there a difference between the US show Golden and the UK show Golden?


----------



## bjlokey

*Re: Ben's Enchanted Budweiser..*



Judy Chute said:


> ..here is just one site that I followed back on the K9 Data link whose lines go back to Ben's Enchanted Budweiser...


Actually they go back to Pacapooches Pandemonium who is a full sibling to Ben's Enchanted Budweiser.

I have been a long time fan of the Benjamin Rajah Frisbee line's. My first FT golden was a daughter...
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=75255

and when I started over in 1995 circumstances resulted in a Frisbee great granddaughter. In fact a line breeding
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=29824


----------



## LH

The thread is dying


----------



## Judy Chute

> The thread is dying


..don't think so...lots of trials this weekend..and people traveling South to train etc..

Holiday week, too..vacations. 

Bump..bump...


----------



## glnbrgold

OK, I'll bite. I have a burning question about breeding that I really do hope someone has the answer to. 

I have noticed in my search for the "perfect sire", that many of the field goldens have a lighter eye. A light eye is pretty small change in the grand scheme of things, but it also happens to be one of those little things that bug the heck out of me. 

So... does anyone know if a light eye is the result of not selecting for a dark eye, or does a light eye indicate better marking ability?

Inquiring minds etc. 

Deb


----------



## greyghost

Not sure about eye color :? .....and I really enjoy reading all the comments and information. But I wish I could spend about a lifetime listening to a true legend with regards to golden breeding....that being Joe and Jackie Merten's. Nobody has even come close to the success they have had with their breeding program and the number of successfull dogs running trials....past present and I'm sure future. The list is impressive indeed: NAFC Cotton, FC/AFC Mandy, FC/AFC Dustbuster, FC/AFC Bandit, FC/AFC Ziggy, FC/AFC Tyonek, FC Abby, AFC Comet, AFC Mioaks Main Event, AFC Supertrooper, AFC Gatsby, and of course the only FC/AFC, OTCH golden....Topbrass Ascending Elijah  . And I'm sure I've left out more wonderful dogs that have been owned, trained or bred by Topbrass.


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Greyghost...

Yeah, and while we're at it, Mike Lardy and Mike Stewart could post how they really feel here on RTF :roll: Me thinks it just ain't gonna happen. The few e-mails Jackie has returned from me have been polite, generic and lacking of much that was truely useful.....which is unfortunate, because she has wonderful dogs and I'd like more info. :? I do understand the time constraints for someone as busy as she must be, but "from the horse's mouth" information is what I need. As far as I can see, they don't have anything more than anyone else to "hide", so why not open'r'up? 

Just askin' regards...

Ted


----------



## greyghost

Morning Ted,

I was kind of afraid of the response I might get....and possibly a disparaging remark aimed at someone I admire greatly. I really didn't intend my post to illicit that sort of remark...and maybe I'm mistaken or off base here. I certainly hope so. 

Ted, I don't own a Topbrass golden. I really don't have an agenda or personal relationship that would sway me one way or the other.....I will tell you that I have found Jackie to be really helpful when I've had the opportunity to speak with her.....which actually has been only once and in person....and a couple of times thru email....but she is very gracious and helpful. Someone that I admire greatly...that has done an outstanding service to the golden community and has always had the breed's interest front and center. No question. I'm quite positive Ted that information from the horse's mouth is available.....just for the asking. 

I too wish more people that really know what they are talking about would have the time to add more info to this discussion. But I think that those people are busy and just don't have the time to respond in this type of forum. I don't believe anyone has anything to hide  . 

I hope that we have the opportunity to meet some day Ted. I do enjoy your posts and there's much to learn on this forum.

Best Regards,

pete


----------



## Ted Hilfiker

Peter....

My post was not at all intended to be a knock of Jackie Merten's, Lardy or Stewart in any way. From all accounts I have heard from people who know Jackie Mertens, she is just as you describe and has made more of a contribution to the golden world than I will in ten lifetimes. My correspondence from her has been what one would expect of a person answering an inquiry about a puppy from a kennel as large and well known as Topbrass from an "unknown" in the trial game. I think my point, poorly expressed  , is that the people mentioned simply don't have: 

(1.) the time to surf to RTF when they have large kennel/training facilities to manage, personal dogs to train, judging assignments to accomplish and the endless minutae of committees, e-mails, etc. Were I in their positions, I think the last thing *I * would want to do is get on the computer and get embroiled in some of the discussions we have here (present thread excepted, of course. :wink: ) This, of course, makes the contributions we do get from the likes of Jim, Val, Melanie, and all the other real pros in this game all the more worthy of our admiration.

(2.) The inclination to get involved in discussions that often seem to have no positive outcome or "point". We all know this happens and I can absolutely understand (and support) the decision of folks, in the position of those I mentioned, to stay away because they they believe it is not in the interest of the dogs or the sport to have their input. They certainly have little to gain personally. 

Perhaps it would help if I gave my sorta-semi-educated opinion of what makes a field breeding I would look at. This changes almost monthly, so take it for what it is worth. First and foremost, there is no such thing as a "clean" breeding. The original development of any breed is based on line-breeding, in-breeding and culling. The genes never forget. Along with the desireable performance, structure, look, etc. comes the possibility that some meanie from 6 generations ago will link up with the same meanie from 9 generations ago and break your heart. It will *always* involve that risk. Just when I think I'm looking at a pretty good "outcross", someone with actual knowledge of the individual dogs involved, will point out this or that which might be the "fly in the ointment". I think this is why Melanie would like to get rid of the COI. (you can grade me on this Melanie :wink: ) Sure, the COI can be 15.35, concentrated on the 3 top dogs in the pedigree, but the "meanie link" might not be with any of those dogs..... You must know the individual dog and what it produced, what it's sibs produced.....and so on back through the pedigree to make an informed decision.If I could make one change to a database/registry it would be that breeder/owners list the date and cause of death of the dog. If I were in an FT circuit with, say, fifteen other people who ran goldens, I would get this info anecdotally. As it is, my HT/FT curcuit has exactly two golden owners who run regularly...myself and the Ducross'. Otherwise, for many good reasons and a few not so good ones, no one wants to "diss" anybody's dog on a public forum, so I just get to my e-mail and try to convince folks I'm serious about getting this thing "right". Sometimes it works, sometime it doesn't....I'll get there eventually, but just a bit more communication about individual dogs would sure be an advantage in my situation...

Whoa, went on way too long...hope I've cleared things up a bit...

Thanks for indulging me regards,

Ted


----------



## Suzanne Burr

Gee, how did this thread get to 21 pages already? I've been busy w/work and a sick dog but decided tonight to "catch up" on my reading and wow!
My husband and I owned a pup by Benjamin Rajah Frisbie. He ran some Derbies, but he wasn't very good. Had the curliest coat I've ever seen on a golden. Eloise Heller Cherry of chessie fame, actually came over to the Derby once to see this "red-gold" chessie someone said was running. We sold him to an upland hunter who was thrilled with him.
I don't pay much attention to COI's. I don't breed very often and only breed what I think will 'work' and what I want. It's hard to explain in words, I guess it's more of a gut feeling. I've always paid a great deal of attention to the bitch line in pedigrees. It has to be a strong consistent line for me. Longevity & health of siblings & get is also important.
I like to lightly line breed and then if I feel the pedigree is starting to look too close, then I outcross.
BTW, I think Barty not only caused the global & beer warmings, he made his tail and coat mandatory in future generations!! Every *good* dog I've owned has had that tail and the Kiowa ears! In fact, I'm downright superstitious if they don't have them. :lol: 

Suzanne Burr


----------



## greyghost

Thanks Ted. All really good points and I couldn't agree more. And...this thread has some legs! 21 pages and counting....I remember someone saying let's get to 10 pages  ! Someday I'm sure I'll get up your way and hope we get the chance to meet and Mike and Val too. "Sprint" is my pups great-grandfather  .


----------



## LH




----------



## hhlabradors

Can someone tell me about AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil?


----------



## John Gassner

Nice red dog that produced many nice dogs. My personal favorite is FC/AFC Stony-Brooks Jersey Devil. 

I love to see Devil in a pedigree and not just because I was fortunate enough to handle him in training a few times. He produced some very smart dogs.

Bobby George probably has the most experience with Devil pups. I know he had at least four of them at one time from two different litters. I think all four had derby points.


John


----------



## Suzanne Burr

Red was a marvelous dog who was owned by Paul Corona from So. California. I was lucky enough to be at the trial watching when he got his AFC. I was standing next to his brother Gene (a lab man) while Paul ran Red on the waterblind. Gene kept muttering things like, "Don't screw it up now", "Right hand back", "Now, now!". I wasn't sure which of them was more excited when that blind was finished.

Of course, Pat Denardo bred her Razz to Red (3X I think) and the rest is golden retriever history!

I've owned two dogs by Red Devil. One was Smoken' Red Apache who sired Glenda Brown's "Luke" and the other was Emberain Lady Nell who was the dam of Wraith's Duncan. They were smart, very watery, excellent markers, did best on complex tests, and had a wonderful intensity. They both had dark brown eyes, although 'pache's were very, very dark and I see them every day in my Amy who is the GGranddaughter of both 'pache and Nell.

Red was dark red, lean, and fast. He unfortunately was either stolen or got out of the backyard at a friend's house while Paul was there visiting and was never recovered. It was a tremendous loss.

Suzanne B


----------



## Diane Brunelle

Wow, after a year, this thread has resurfaced...THANK YOU! This is my all time favorite and the reason I know some very wonderful people and have an incredible little pup.

Golden Regards!

Diane


----------



## Guest

Suzanne Burr said:


> (3X I think)


Four times.  

He is the #2 top producer of all-age Goldens in breed history, just barely falling short of his grandsire, AFC Holway Barty.

http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/files/TopProducers/TopAllAgeSires


----------



## Miriam Wade

Suzanne-

I enjoy your posts so much. They really bring the dogs to life, as opposed to just names & titles on a page. THANKS!!!

M


----------



## Jim Pickering

Melanie Foster said:


> He is the #2 top producer of all-age Goldens in breed history, just barely falling short of his grandsire, AFC Holway Barty.
> 
> http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/files/TopProducers/TopAllAgeSires


Melanie,
Do you know who compiled all the data on this website?


Suzanne, John or someone who knew Red Devil personally, can you describe him physically other than, "Red was dark red, lean, and fast." Approximate height and weight.


----------



## Guest

Jim Pickering said:


> Do you know who compiled all the data on this website?


Jim, you are so funny I forgot to laugh.



> Suzanne, John or someone who knew Red Devil personally, can you describe him physically other than, "Red was dark red, lean, and fast." Approximate height and weight.


And did they call him "Red" vs "Devil" and would he would come at you unjustified when being "stimulated" (i.e. crucified) via the electronic collar as the rumor mill would like to suggest.

From what I have been told the collar level was HOT and that was it.

Melanie


----------



## Judy Chute

...Suzanne..that is a great post...once again.


----------



## Judy Chute

> either stolen or got out of the backyard at a friend's house while Paul was there visiting and was never recovered


I have read this before...hard to think about as no one knows if he was well taken care of somewhere ...or not. 

Also, I have heard that his temperment was not the best..wonder if that is so...

A surprise to see this thread back up and running..


----------



## Suzanne Burr

Jim: You're asking a little old lady who's been on drugs for almost 2 weeks to remember what a dog looked like over 20 years ago? Actually, I think I can do that!!
Red wasn't a big dog, nor was he "fluffy". He probably weighed about 53-55 lbs max. His coat was fairly short, but not straight. It had that sort of "tousled" look and I don't remember it being thick. Apache had the same kind of coat, but Nell's was thicker & had a wave. If you look at Holway Barty's picture in K9 data, that's pretty much what his coat looked like. He had a bit of white on his chest--so did Apache. His bone was more fine than heavy and he didn't have the 'barrel' chest and thick neck that some of the old field dogs had....he was much lighter in build and as I said before lean. He had a very pleasing eye and a nice ear set. His head was average--certainly not broad, say like Cotton's. It's hard for me to say how tall he was--average as best I can remember. He was usually moving when I saw him. I know he wasn't as big as Cotton or Duncan. 
As a sidebar: Apache weighed 48 pounds soaking wet!! We called him our little red coyote. 
Hope this helps.
Suzanne B.


----------



## hhlabradors

Thank you for the information provided. With the addition of my Golden pup, I am paying much closer attention to this thread than the first time around.  

I appreciate knowing more than just titles and titled get produced.

Has the temperament been an issue in dogs that have come down from him?

Can anyone tell me about health issues particularly health issues as they relate to the Red X Razz breedings?

Private messages are fine and appreciated as much as public postings.

Thank you!


----------



## Guest

Suzanne Burr said:


> He probably weighed about 53-55 lbs max.


Really? I asked Pat (DeNardo) specifically about this at some point and she thought he was not so small. Maybe closer to 70 pounds in her mind?


----------



## hhlabradors

Me again... Sorry.... :wink: 

I have a reasonable library of Labrador books. What books are "must haves" in a serious Golden person's library?


----------



## John Gassner

Melanie Foster said:


> Suzanne Burr said:
> 
> 
> 
> He probably weighed about 53-55 lbs max.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I asked Pat (DeNardo) specifically about this at some point and she thought he was not so small. Maybe closer to 70 pounds in her mind?
Click to expand...

Maybe that was his "show" weight?!?!?!? :wink: 


John


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## Becky Mills

I have a reasonable library of Labrador books. What books are "must haves" in a serious Golden person's library?[/quote]

Sex and the Working Dog by Jake Gassner-Whiteley

Accessorizing for Golden Owners by Randy Bohn

Introducing Your Fluffy Dog to Water by Kip Kemp

BTW, y'all will be glad to hear Hoss is much better but having to clip that nail totally destroyed his manicure


----------



## hhlabradors

Becky Mills said:


> Sex and the Working Dog by Jake Gassner-Whiteley
> 
> Accessorizing for Golden Owners by Randy Bohn
> 
> Introducing Your Fluffy Dog to Water by Kip Kemp
> 
> BTW, y'all will be glad to hear Hoss is much better but having to clip that nail totally destroyed his manicure



I have all of those. Do you have any other suggestions? :wink: 



Glad Hoss is doing OK!


----------



## Bente

I am asssuming you don't mean training books but rather a breed specific book?

The one I like best is Nona Bauer's book, The World of the Golden Retriever: A dog for all seasons

It has a lot of information on Goldens with lots of pictures too. Good resource and a lot of fun to leaf through (skipping the confirmation sections... JUST KIDDING  .. ...well, maybe not entirely kidding.. :wink: )


Bente


----------



## Sue Kiefer

I think that the collar back than was very similar to my old 70LR.
1 button on continous burn where you put the colored plugs in the collar.(green being the color of choice back then) along with the old saying "boot,shoot and electricute."No wonder some of those dogs had temperment issues :roll: 
Ask around Wis. sometime about throwing birds for FC-AFC Chief Sands and Dick Sampson. Birdboys were all issued lawnchairs,white coats,popper guns,birds and the old type aluminum style garbage can lid. :roll: 
P.S. I love stories about Goldens of the past.Happier ones though :wink:


----------



## Guest

Becky Mills said:


> Gassner-Whiteley


I would prefer never to see these names linked together in this fashion again.

But I digress. Eleanor, as Bente mentions, The World of the Golden Retriever (Bauer) is considered to be the "bible" (hope that does not offend anyone) of the breed. It is out of print but can be found by searching sites such as www.abebooks.com. I see a couple of copies available there now, but the prices are ridiculous ($85+). You should be able to find it at a more reasonable price than that.

The New Golden Retriever (Schlehr)

The Complete Golden Retriever (Fischer)
The New Complete Golden Retriever (Fischer)

Both Fischer books are also out of print but are classics.

MelanNie

ps Bente, it's _conf*o*rmation_. You should know better! :wink:


----------



## hhlabradors

Thank you for the book suggestions. I ordered a few earlier, and seem to have made pretty decent choices, but it looks like tracking down Ms. Bauer's book will be next.

And Bente? I probably won't be skipping the conformation parts. :wink: :wink: 

Honestly, at least in Labs, I think finding the SIMILARITIES in the dogs throughout history is one of the keys to truly understanding the standard, figuring out what's really important and sifting through what's merely fad. There's an often shown photo of a bitch from the 1800s or so that bears a striking resemblance to Dickendall Arnold. The two "styles" have always been with us. I'd guess there'll be some validity to that in Golden retrievers as well. I have a couple of Golden books now and have enjoyed the photos, show dogs and field and duals.

I really did make it all the way through this thread and have appreciated those who've contributed to my "Golden" education here. Thanks!


----------



## fetchindawgs

I had not seen this post prior to today, so have just waded through the whole 23 pages :shock: 

My initial interest was sparked by the original request for the naming of Golden stud dogs. Owning a young field bred bitch, and looking forward towards breeding from her sometime in the future, I have tossed the thought around in my head of whether importing semen from the US, might contribute to improving lines here. Alternatively, purchasing a bitch, mating her to a desired dog, then importing her, is an option.

I have plenty of time to ponder this option, but took the opportunity of taking note of the sires mentioned in this post. Whilst I am concerned with looks to a degree, good sound conformation, excellent health, (including past generations), sweet temperament, dark pigment and dark eyes, and correct scissor bite, are all requirements necessary in assessing a stud dog.

As a bonus, a good record of competing in the field would also be a sway.

In all the posts I read (unless my eyes blurred after reading countless pages), no one referred to pigment or eye colour. I think there was one or two references to bite, and a few to temperament. All of these, are important to Golden breeders in Australia. 

I am treading with caution in my assessments of US & Canadian dogs, after a mate of mine got well and truly stung by a well known overseas breeder. My mate lost thousands of dollars(about 6) & ended up with nothing. It's a long story and one that involved incorrect bite, but it is interesting & horrifying to see the dog is being bred with despite the supposed poor bite. 

Our puppies are vet checked at six weeks for general health and correct bite & given vaccinations. Hips and elbow xrays and eye testing can be assessed after 12 months. Hips & elbows are actually given a score, and then graded on International and Australian standard. To my knowledge there is not any history of heart or thyroid problems in Goldens within Australia, therefore no testing is required.

What limit in health clearances generally, is considered a better than even risk when considering using a stud dog in your country ? And, is it common to have semen tested for potency ?


----------



## John Gassner

Yes it is common to have the semen tested.

Health tests include hips and elbows, thyroid, heart, eyes.

Temperment and bite are also important. Coat color is important to some, and pigment to a lesser degree (for field dogs). Cancer is another plague.

Brains and athletic ability are a top priority too.


Good Luck 

John


----------



## Suzanne Burr

Regarding Red Devil's weight: Well, Mel, I did say I was a little old lady on drugs!  I just don't remember him being that heavy, but Pat did know him better. 

The collars we used back in 'the old days' were HOT, HOT, HOT!!! I don't recall if the first one we had came with plugs (still old and still on drugs). There was one that came with a button that gave a buzz, tho. I also remember one of the early ones that was turned on by aircraft flying overhead! Yep, a lot of garbage can lids were used when training with those old collars.

I didn't have any temperment problems with my two Red Devil goldens and the others I knew were okay, too. Bites were fine, great pigment, and as I've mentioned a good dark eye. 

Suzanne B


----------



## Guest

fetchindawgs said:


> no one referred to pigment or eye colour. I think there was one or two references to bite, and a few to temperament. All of these, are important to Golden breeders in Australia.


Fetchindawgs,

These are of importance to breeders on this continent as well, but there comes a point where you list your priorities and look at the big picture vs eliminating dogs from the gene pool due to minor infractions. What classifies as an infraction will vary between individuals.

While you state that it is horrifying that a dog with a bad bite is being bred, I would find it more horrifying to see a Golden _Retriever_ with little work ethic, intelligence and/or retrieve drive being bred. 

A short list of things breeders may be concerned with in no particular order:

Temperament (and by this I don't just mean ability to get along with people and dogs, but a dog's overall stability as well)
Soundness
Food Allergies
Skin Allergies
Ear & Eye Allergies
Epilepsy
Correct Bite
Missing Teeth
Pigment Color
Eye Color
Coat Color
Size falling within the breed standard
Marking ability
Perseverence/courage
Water attitude
Biddability
Functional (working) coat
Longevity
Production record (both quality and quantity)
Hypothyroidism
Hyperthyroidism

All these things in addition to the big four health "clearances" of hips, elbows, eyes, heart are to be taken into consideration when making breeding choices. (I'm sure folks may have plenty of other things to add to the list of criteria. Feel free to add.)

What it comes down to is the breeder's vision of what they wish to produce and it often becomes a give and take situation. For example, do you think Glenda Brown's ideal stud dog would have been a 48 pounder? I imagine if she had made a list of what was important to her, it would not have included a male that weighed in at less than 50 pounds. :wink:

However, rather than eliminating a dog due to a single characteristic, breeding to Apache produced AFC Glenhaven's Devil's Advocate UDT MH WCX OS FDHF who is behind many of the top running and producing Goldens today. 

OK, enough for now, but I think we all need to keep the big picture in mind. It's not all about COIs or correct ear sets. It's the whole dog. The whole Golden RETRIEVER.

Melanie

ps



John Gassner said:


> Temperment


Sweetness, you are hopeless.


----------



## LH

Which Goldens are closest to perfect?


----------



## Becky Mills

Gulp. Here I go. Even though I've never met her in person my vote goes to Pony Foster. From her pictures she is a lovely lovely lady, she did everything plus that Melanie ever tried with her, she had litter after litter of amazing pups, and she is still very much alive at 13. (Yes, I realize ladies never tell their age, but I figured in this case it would be okay).


----------



## Bait

Melanie Foster said:


> John Gassner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Temperment
> 
> 
> 
> Sweetness, you are hopeless.
Click to expand...

 :shock: GEEZ,....... John and Bente! She's on you guys like a fat kid on a "cheeze" danish! :roll: :lol: Give'em hell, Miss Spelling Bee! :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)


----------



## sterregold

Another great book to get is Marcia Schlehr's "Blue Book" officially titled _A Complete Study of the Golden Retriever_ available through the GRCA. It is an excellent treatment of the conformation of the Golden Retriever connected to the breed standard and helps in making sense of what those descriptions might translate to in a real dog. And she actually connects her discussion of the structural elements of the dog to its working purpose!


----------



## dreamer2385

I, too, have re-read this post, amazed at the wealth of information about my breed. I must say it is true that you can never know too much. I think still have alot to learn! I have had golden for 20plus years. I still am learning ! Thanks for the informative forums. I am still reading and re-reading, and i thought only the lab people had opinions,lol.. Maria


----------



## Annette

Just finished reading this whole thread.! So much information and history. I actually saw run several of the Goldens mentioned . Thanks to all who contributed.


----------



## Jeannie Greenlee

Truley at great thread! I will have to go back and re-read it again. So much information.


----------



## jeff evans

Melanie Foster said:


> Fetchindawgs,
> 
> These are of importance to breeders on this continent as well, but there comes a point where you list your priorities and look at the big picture vs eliminating dogs from the gene pool due to minor infractions. What classifies as an infraction will vary between individuals.
> 
> While you state that it is horrifying that a dog with a bad bite is being bred, I would find it more horrifying to see a Golden _Retriever_ with little work ethic, intelligence and/or retrieve drive being bred.
> 
> A short list of things breeders may be concerned with in no particular order:
> 
> Temperament (and by this I don't just mean ability to get along with people and dogs, but a dog's overall stability as well)
> Soundness
> Food Allergies
> Skin Allergies
> Ear & Eye Allergies
> Epilepsy
> Correct Bite
> Missing Teeth
> Pigment Color
> Eye Color
> Coat Color
> Size falling within the breed standard
> Marking ability
> Perseverence/courage
> Water attitude
> Biddability
> Functional (working) coat
> Longevity
> Production record (both quality and quantity)
> Hypothyroidism
> Hyperthyroidism
> 
> All these things in addition to the big four health "clearances" of hips, elbows, eyes, heart are to be taken into consideration when making breeding choices. (I'm sure folks may have plenty of other things to add to the list of criteria. Feel free to add.)
> 
> What it comes down to is the breeder's vision of what they wish to produce and it often becomes a give and take situation. For example, do you think Glenda Brown's ideal stud dog would have been a 48 pounder? I imagine if she had made a list of what was important to her, it would not have included a male that weighed in at less than 50 pounds. :wink:
> 
> However, rather than eliminating a dog due to a single characteristic, breeding to Apache produced AFC Glenhaven's Devil's Advocate UDT MH WCX OS FDHF who is behind many of the top running and producing Goldens today.
> 
> OK, enough for now, but I think we all need to keep the big picture in mind. It's not all about COIs or correct ear sets. It's the whole dog. The whole Golden RETRIEVER.
> 
> Melanie
> 
> ps
> 
> 
> 
> Sweetness, you are hopeless.


Melanie, your parents aparantly didn't follow this breeding protocol with you, dogh!!! Back at ya!


----------



## Rainmaker

champ said:


> Melanie, your parents aparantly didn't follow this breeding protocol with you, dogh!!! Back at ya!


Really, Champ, you pick a nice, informative thread to pick on Melanie some more? You appear to have a bit of a stalker complex going. Thought we were supposed to be playing nice on here. Sounds a tad personal to me.


----------



## KNorman

Rainmaker said:


> Really, Champ, you pick a nice, informative thread to pick on Melanie some more? You appear to have a bit of a stalker complex going. Thought we were supposed to be playing nice on here. Sounds a tad personal to me.


APParently, it's an attempt at humor.


Great thread BTW. I enjoyed re-reading it.


----------



## FOM

Champ,

Please refrain from personal attacks, your post clearly violates the "Golden Rule" here on RTF.

Lainee
RTF Moderator


----------



## jeff evans

FOM said:


> Champ,
> 
> Please refrain from personal attacks, your post clearly violates the "Golden Rule" here on RTF.
> 
> Lainee
> RTF Moderator


 I agree if it was intended to be serious, have a sense of humor thats always her excuse!!
She was one up, now were even


----------



## kjrice

KNorman said:


> APParently, it's an attempt at humor.
> 
> 
> Great thread BTW. I enjoyed re-reading it.


Must be a secret crush.


----------



## cakaiser

champ said:


> I agree if it was intended to be serious, have a sense of humor thats always her excuse!!


Big difference...she is actually funny, you, well, not so much..


----------



## Pals

champ said:


> I agree if it was intended to be serious, have a sense of humor thats always her excuse!!
> She was one up, now were even


Actually Jeff it appears that given the past "posts" you are just waiting for her to post and then
make not-so nice comments. It's kind of creepy.


----------



## duk4me

Pals said:


> Actually Jeff it appears that given the past "posts" you are just waiting for her to post and them make not-so nice comments. It's kind of creepy.


All you marsh mops need to wipe the floor with him so to speak.;-)


----------



## FOM

champ said:


> I agree if it was intended to be serious, have a sense of humor thats always her excuse!!
> She was one up, now were even


Can't read intent very easily, especially given there was no other context in this thread to indicate you two were having a friendly jabbing session with each other. Based on previous posting history, it is obvious there is no love loss between you and Melanie, so let it go - refrain from public insults in the future. 

Lainee


----------



## Guest

Wow, it's been a few years since this thread has started and a lot has changed since then. Unfortunately, we are in a lull as far as titled Golden studs are concerned, but then again, I think you all might know my opinion on getting obsessed with "titled" if you read the whole thread.

Soon after this thread was started we bred to "Big Jake" who is now FC AFC Lacrosse Max Q Jake JH OS FDHF. He ended up being a very good producer for us. People were not going to him because of the white on his chest and gawd forbid his Fair OFA rating. Personally, I chose to look beyond that and bred a few girls to him with somewhat successful results.

We ended up with FC Firemark Rackem and Stackem Casey who FC titled at three years of age. Our QAA Jake pups include but are not limited to:

Firemark Holy Terra MH*** (MH and Master National Finalist at 2 years of age)
Firemarks Scout Honor Jake***
Firemark's Jump "N" Jake Flash*** (100% derby completion rate, QAA @ 22 months old, Amateur JAM at just over 2 years old)
Firemark Little Hot Tee*** (2010 #1 Derby Golden, QAA in first Q she ran)

This is not meant to be a brag list but just a heads up to those who choose to eliminate a dog without looking at the big picture.

For anyone interested, recent dogs we have bred to who are <gasp> not titled are:

Heads Up Tracks in the Taiga Am/Can***
Tiger Maple of Braevue***
Topbrass Montana Lonesome Dove***

All are up a comers and have all age accomplishments. If you're searching for a titled Golden stud these days, you may be holding your breath (though I'm sure Casey wouldn't mind some visitors ;-)).

Let's just keep things in perspective folks.


----------



## duk4me

Melanie Foster said:


> Wow, it's been a few years since this thread has started and a lot has changed since then. Unfortunately, we are in a lull as far as titled Golden studs are concerned, but then again, I think you all might know my opinion on getting obsessed with "titled" if you read the whole thread.
> 
> Soon after this thread was started we bred to "Big Jake" who is now FC AFC Lacrosse Max Q Jake JH OS FDHF. He ended up being a very good producer for us. People were not going to him because of the white on his chest and gawd forbid his Fair OFA rating. Personally, I chose to look beyond that and bred a few girls to him with somewhat successful results.
> 
> We ended up with FC Firemark Rackem and Stackem Casey who FC titled at three years of age. Our QAA Jake pups include but are not limited to:
> 
> Firemark Holy Terra MH*** (MH and Master National Finalist at 2 years of age)
> Firemarks Scout Honor Jake***
> Firemark's Jump "N" Jake Flash*** (100% derby completion rate, QAA @ 22 months old, Amateur JAM at just over 2 years old)
> Firemark Little Hot Tee*** (2010 #1 Derby Golden, QAA in first Q she ran)
> 
> This is not meant to be a brag list but just a heads up to those who choose to eliminate a dog without looking at the big picture.
> 
> For anyone interested, recent dogs we have bred to who are <gasp> not titled are:
> 
> Heads Up Tracks in the Taiga Am/Can***
> Tiger Maple of Braevue***
> Topbrass Montana Lonesome Dove***
> 
> All are up a comers and have all age accomplishments. If you're searching for a titled Golden stud these days, you may be holding your breath (though I'm sure Casey wouldn't mind some visitors ;-)).
> 
> Let's just keep things in perspective folks.


Felonie do you need an oxygen max? You seem to be gasping quite a bit.


----------



## Guest

Tim, I don't need an oxygen mask but it is a little difficult to read a thread when I was still talking to Gassner and the other one and Mr. Pickering was still being cordial to me.

To clarify, it breaks my heart a little bit and I'm not being facetious.


----------



## lizard55033

Melanie Foster said:


> *Because a title (FC and/or AFC) will not guarantee improvement of one's line.* There are many, many other things to research including health, longevity, temperament, depth of pedigree, breadth of success of siblings, parents, similar breedings, and characteristics that may or not be compatible with your bitch. And this just the short list.
> 
> Often times folks look for a titled dog for reasons that include the idealistic notion that a dog must be worth breeding to if it is a champion. Or believe a champion titled dog will sell more puppies. People making breeding decisions need to invest the time and effort to research their choices, be willing to have their potential breeding stock evaluated by an unbiased party for strengths and weaknesses, and be open to suggestions but keep in mind who is offering these suggestions and place value on them accordingly.


One of the best things I've read on here in a long time!


----------



## JusticeDog

kjrice said:


> Must be a secret crush.


I think this hits it right on! 

And Melanie- Thanks for all the golden history!


----------



## Tim Lawrence

Pals said:


> It's kind of creepy.


Yep. It really is. Just FYI..Someone that has been in the dog game world for as long as I've been alive told me to make as many friends as possible in this line of fun, because you never know when it will come back and bite you on the butt. Plus drama and BS at a field trial or hunt test doesn't make it fun anymore. Just me though. I like being nice


----------



## EdA

Tim Lawrence said:


> Yep. It really is. Just FYI..Someone that has been in the dog game world for as long as I've been alive told me to make as many friends as possible in line of fun, because you never know when it will come back and bite you on the butt. Plus drama and BS at a field trial or hunt test doesn't make it fun anymore. Just me though. I like being nice


Very good advice, it is a very small community that we inhabit!


----------



## D Osborn

Yes, true in all aspects of life. As someone said to me today-we should all get along. My response- I am a professional, and will act as a professional. I will treat you the same way I treat ___________. 
I did not say, karma is a bitch, and will catch up with you.:evil:


----------



## kjrice

D Osborn said:


> Yes, true in all aspects of life. As someone said to me today-we should all get along. My response- I am a professional, and will act as a professional. I will treat you the same way I treat ___________.
> I did not say, karma is a bitch, and will catch up with you.:evil:


Did my karma run over your dogma?


----------



## D Osborn

kjrice said:


> Did my karma run over your dogma?


Yes, last week, when I got completely screwed by the person saying we should all get along. 

Oh well, moving on. Very small world.


----------



## Chris Atkinson

Champ,

It's just plain mean-spirited and crummy.

This notion of keeping score and trying to get even won't fly here.

Users need to be accountable for their words and actions. If you are being accountable for yours, you will note that you were offbase and your words in this thread were uncalled for.

Feel free to be accountable and move on.

Otherwise, we have a problem...OK?

Thanks, Chris


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B

I have sat here and read all 37 pages of this post. It was very educational to me. The reason for my interest was a Golden that I judged this Spring that I thought was one of the finest dogs I have seen in 21 years of Retrievers. The young Lady that owns her posts on here and I hope she sees this post. I expect to see some great things out of this dog. I like a dog with fire, style and looks good doing it. This pup has the BOLDEST water entry I have ever seen on a Golden . Thanks to all of you for providing a good history about your breed....;


----------



## jeff evans

Chris Atkinson said:


> Champ,
> 
> It's just plain mean-spirited and crummy.
> 
> This notion of keeping score and trying to get even won't fly here.
> 
> Users need to be accountable for their words and actions. If you are being accountable for yours, you will note that you were offbase and your words in this thread were uncalled for.
> 
> Feel free to be accountable and move on.
> 
> Otherwise, we have a problem...OK?
> 
> Thanks, Chris


I will be accountable...its interesting to note that the flow of each thread seems to be the same...as one piles on the rest do. As I may be guilty in the past, this was a poke at someone that by the nature of her posts and most will agree it is ok to assume she has thick skin. If I am wrong to assume then so be although we do have mutual friends and was educated say the least. And I'm sorry if it feels creepy, I do apologize opening a 38 page post. If you take the time to read again, I did..it was intended to be harmless sorry folks!


----------



## Gerry Clinchy

> The reason for my interest was a Golden that I judged this Spring that I thought was one of the finest dogs I have seen in 21 years of Retrievers. The young Lady that owns her posts on here and I hope she sees this post. I expect to see some great things out of this dog. I like a dog with fire, style and looks good doing it. This pup has the BOLDEST water entry I have ever seen on a Golden .


And you leave us all hanging in suspense as to who this bitch might be ... when exceptional working bitches are such a rarity.


----------



## Red Coyote

Just judge the dog!

Jeff


----------



## Sue Kiefer

yes.
AAAAAAANNDDDDDDDDDDDDd the brags AAAAAANNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDD the jabs at NO WHITE And OFA Fair. How classy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sue


----------



## ErinsEdge

Too bad the thread had to be mucked up by such juvenile comments. Too bad they can't be deleted.


----------



## Annette

This thread made it through 346 post before some had to muck it up! Unfortunate!


----------



## Cowtown

I was hoping you'd pipe up and provide some updated info Melanie! Thank you.

I too just reread this thread with a lot of interest and a lot more knowledge than when I was looking for my first Golden pup in 2009. 

I really, really appreciate Melanie, Jim, Val, and others thoughts and contributions to the thread. The more I read, the more questions I have and the more I want to know and understand. I sure wish I had a mentor like one of you that I could just be a sponge, talk dogs, ask questions, train with and just soak up the knowledge.

Val posed some questions on Page 25 that I keep coming back to again and again. I'd like to pose the question again to maybe keep the discussion going:

"How does one study a breed, not just one dog or maybe two, if studying the breed is important to get where we are aimed? Is that important? What makes a great dog in the field? What makes a great Golden Retriever for the field? What makes a great Golden Retriever breeder, trainer? What makes a great Golden Retriever, period!"

Y'all who have been in the game with Goldens awhile have so much knowledge inside your heads. My question and the challenge staring at me as a newbie that wants to dig in and truly educate myself on field Goldens, relates to 2 of Val's questions above:

How does one study a breed and what makes a great dog/Golden in the field?

This is one of the best and most educational threads I've read on RTF!

Jeff


----------



## Sue Kiefer

What makes it even more fantastic is that is isn't just one kennel/breeding program to follow. The rules for the various dog games are available for anyone to read and follow which includes Field, and or Conformation or whatever trips your trigger.
The various judges decide who the winner is on any given weekend.
You train what you want to train and run what events that you want to run.
What is your type of dog that you like to train???
What makes you go wow I want a dog from that stud or bitch??
You have read differences in opinions on this thread with regards to that.
What you think is the end all to be all is NOT what someone else may think. 
That's what makes this soooooooooo much fun.
What knowledge that you gain from being with,talking to,e-mailing,texting,......is background on dogs in general (not rumors,general comments, or opinions)from elder folks like Earl Dillow,Pat Sadler, Jackie Mertens, Mickey Strandberg..etc...........Each of these folks are all respected members of the Golden community that have all given back many many times to the sport of our breed.
Sue


----------



## jeff evans

Tim Lawrence said:


> Yep. It really is. Just FYI..Someone that has been in the dog game world for as long as I've been alive told me to make as many friends as possible in this line of fun, because you never know when it will come back and bite you on the butt. Plus drama and BS at a field trial or hunt test doesn't make it fun anymore. Just me though. I like being nice


I don think like that, sounds political and to be quite frank that thought is what has deteriated our sport! Judge the dog not the person. Some how we need to convey that this thought has no business in our game. People come in different shades,with this type of attitude who are we kidding, were judging the people as much as were judging the dog, sometimes less! If I had to judge someone I disliked that has no relevance because I'm judging dog work not people work, if it was just that we could do that from the computer!


----------



## Jeannie Greenlee

> The reason for my interest was a Golden that I judged this Spring that I thought was one of the finest dogs I have seen in 21 years of Retrievers. The young Lady that owns her posts on here and I hope she sees this post. I expect to see some great things out of this dog. I like a dog with fire, style and looks good doing it. This pup has the BOLDEST water entry I have ever seen on a Golden .


Thanks Otey, you make me blush. BTW, the little problem I was having is now fixed! Yeah! We are planning on making the next test in Illinois this month.


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B

I don't like to OUT people so I hoped Jeannie Greenlee would respond. Her dog is Bang. Dang NICE dog.......PS I would even swap a black Lab pup for one like that...........LOL. Hey Jeannie what does all those letters like OTCH & MACH MEAN ?? I know what *** means on Bang's Sires name. and what does RA NAJ CDX JH mean after her dam's name??? Got more letters i have never seen.........LOL.


----------



## J Connolly

Very informative thread. We have had Goldens since 1984. Learned a lot and have a lot more to learn. I set out to breed field dogs that have pedigrees that are little bit away from those that are most prevalent. I also have also tried to stay away from intensive line breeding. I have had several MH, SH and now my first dog to place in the derby and qual. Health issues are very important to me since I am a veterinarian, unfortunately the health issues I worry about most we can't test for i.e. epilepsy, cancer and allergies. A friend and veterinary oncologist told me recently that if we find the gene for lymphoma and hemangiosarcoma it could be the end of the Golden Retriever because she felt it was in all lines, show, field and obedience.


----------



## Gerry Clinchy

Cowtown said:


> *How does one study a breed and what makes a great dog/Golden in the field?*
> Jeff


Be like a sponge ... find the water & soak it up. Do this for 15 years or so. 

After about 10-12 years you think you know quite a lot. Beyond 15 years, you begin to realize how much there is yet to learn. For those precocious, it might happen more quickly.


----------



## Cowtown

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Be like a sponge ... find the water & soak it up. Do this for 15 years or so.
> 
> After about 10-12 years you think you know quite a lot. Beyond 15 years, you begin to realize how much there is yet to learn. For those precocious, it might happen more quickly.


I hear you! While I do know a lot more than I did 2 years ago, I only now realize how much there is to know and I almost feel more confused than I did when I started.

It's pretty overwhelming. Melanie suggested a few books I don't have and I figure that's as good a place to start as any.


----------



## Guest

Sue Kiefer said:


> AAAAAANNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDD the jabs at NO WHITE And OFA Fair. How classy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Sue


I think you if you reread my post you will see that there were absolutely no jabs made whatsoever and in fact, quite the opposite. I'm not sure if there has been anyone who has supported Jake on this forum more than myself.



cowtown said:


> "How does one study a breed, not just one dog or maybe two, if studying the breed is important to get where we are aimed? Is that important? What makes a great dog in the field? What makes a great Golden Retriever for the field? What makes a great Golden Retriever breeder, trainer? What makes a great Golden Retriever, period!"


Whoo boy Jeff, these are not easy questions to answer! I'll tell you how I started and that was by scouring pedigrees. k9data did not exist yet so I would go page by page though Nona Bauer's *The World of the Golden Retriever* (this book was mentioned earlier in this thread as well) and made notes on primarily the field Goldens but tried to absorb as much as I could about the other notables mentioned in there as well. I also spent countless hours studying the GRCA Yearbooks which were in print version but are now available annually on DVD. I supplemented pedigrees with information from Jackie's website, both from her write ups on Goldens from the past, but also from breedings she was doing at the time.

I would spend numerous hours laying pedigrees out on the floor matching them up, noting dogs which appeared in multiple pedigrees, noting which appeared to be prepotent producers, etc.

In addition to this I would make copies of litter ads from RFTN and would go through both RFTN and Dennis' Retrievers Online with a highlighter marking Golden placements. I imagine I still have a handful of those photocopies pedigrees in my files somewhere. (And I know I was not the only one who kept a highlighter in my pocket, right Bait?)

Now obviously all of the above are just looking at Goldens "on paper" and nothing is a substitute for see a dog in person (or of course even better knowing them personally) but what it did for me was made me better prepared to make observations when I went to my first Golden National Specialty. Instead of just being overwhelmed by a sea of gold ;-) I could match "the faces to the names" which led to a more valuable learning experience.

On that note, I would sure recommend that anyone interested in learning more about the breed attend a Specialty. It's not only a way to see the dogs and their people up close and personal, but it can be a heckuva lot of fun. 

Jeff, you know where to find me when you have questions.


----------



## windigo

Sent you a PM

Patsy Martin


----------



## Gerry Clinchy

Indeed, you'll see more Goldens running in the field in just one GRCA Natl Specialty than you might in a whole year at local trials ... at least that's the way it is where I live. And they will be among the best Goldens in the country. Many field people come from all over the country to run at the Natl Specialty.

Mark your calendar ... Sept. 25+ in Georgia this year.

It's worth going even if you are just going to be a spectator.


----------



## Guest

Gerry Clinchy said:


> It's worth going even if you are just going to be a spectator.


Absolutely! I think have actually gone to more specialties without a dog than with.


----------



## Cowtown

Thanks for the heads up. I've been wanting to go to one so I'll see if I can make it.


----------



## jmueller

Where is the GRCA Natl Specialty going to be held next year (if thats been determined)?

Thanks


----------



## dogfather

goldensrock said:


> I have a 6 yr old golden bitch along the Mioak's line. She & I have accomplished a MH & WCX. She's a great marker, hits the H2O strong, doesn't quit. I'm looking for a darker red stud - my question is, do I look for an FC AFC etc etc or ?
> I had a list of FC AFC, AFTCH etc, but was asked why only titled studs.
> My response was why not?
> I've got an MH, why wouldn't I look to improve the line?
> 
> Any and all comments are welcome - I'm a novice at this!


Janice Gunns Stanley Steamer is very nice and Anne Everett otf Heads Up kennels has some nice dogs.


----------



## ohohjoe

goldensrock said:


> I have a 6 yr old golden bitch along the Mioak's line. She & I have accomplished a MH & WCX. She's a great marker, hits the H2O strong, doesn't quit. I'm looking for a darker red stud - my question is, do I look for an FC AFC etc etc or ?
> I had a list of FC AFC, AFTCH etc, but was asked why only titled studs.
> My response was why not?
> I've got an MH, why wouldn't I look to improve the line?
> 
> Any and all comments are welcome - I'm a novice at this!


 All the guy wanted was a Little advice not a major issue but of course you all went over board again..Really and you say thier is no politics in field trials..what ever ..thier are alot of good goldens in the hunt test just look at the master nationals....you will find a good stud with great pedigree save you alot of money and you will have a great litter..don't let all these tight butt stuck up people sway you ..its your dog breed her to who you want..


----------



## JusticeDog

ohohjoe said:


> All the guy wanted was a Little advice not a major issue but of course you all went over board again..Really and you say thier is no politics in field trials..what ever ..thier are alot of good goldens in the hunt test just look at the master nationals....you will find a good stud with great pedigree save you alot of money and you will have a great litter..don't let all these tight butt stuck up people sway you ..its your dog breed her to who you want..


Well, if you didn't notice, the guy wrote the thread in 2006, so i can gurantee you he is NOT going to be breeding an 11 year old bitch. And you say you're in politics, but you come on a public forum with no identification, and call people "tight butt stuck up people." Nice....


----------



## ohohjoe

JusticeDog said:


> Well, if you didn't notice, the guy wrote the thread in 2006, so i can gurantee you he is NOT going to be breeding an 11 year old bitch. And you say you're in politics, but you come on a public forum with no identification, and call people "tight butt stuck up people." Nice....


went over your head ..never mind you wouldn't understand...


----------



## Guest

ohohjoe said:


> All the guy wanted was a Little advice not a major issue but of course you all went over board again..Really and you say thier is no politics in field trials..what ever ..thier are alot of good goldens in the hunt test just look at the master nationals....you will find a good stud with great pedigree save you alot of money and you will have a great litter..don't let all these tight butt stuck up people sway you ..its your dog breed her to who you want..


Hello ooj,

I think the guy/original poster (her name was Susan) came to the forum for some advice and walked away with something that worked for her. She ended up breeding to one of the dogs suggested. It also provided an opportunity for those of us in this breed to share information which I can't imagine anyone disagreeing is a bad thing.

Whether one chooses to breed to a dog who is trialing or one who is running hunt tests is their personal decision. There are goals involved and there is marketing involved.

I will admit that the four word expression you chose to use is painful in more ways than one. Ouch. :shock:


----------



## jeff evans

ohohjoe said:


> went over your head ..never mind you wouldn't understand...


I don't think so...your dealing with some very good dog minds, there shooting straight your not!


----------



## Jeannie Greenlee

> went over your head ..never mind you wouldn't understand...


What a gutsy move...anonymous, from swamp land. You obviously don't have any regard for the years of knowledge these generous people are imparting to us. Go back under your slimmy rock.


----------



## Becky Mills

ohohjoe said:


> went over your head ..never mind you wouldn't understand...


Ohjo,
Bless your Heart.
Since you are kinda new here I know you haven't had a chance to really get to know people on RTF so I'll let you in on a little secret. We try not to talk about it openly cause we don't want to hurt her feelings but you're right. Justice Dog is a little slow. Poor thing is lacking in I.Q. and education. So try to keep it simple for her sake.
And by the way, she's painfully aware of her short comings and normally doesn't express her opinions. So you probably won't hear back from her.
Just trying to help in the worst way.
Becky


----------



## duk4me

Becky Mills said:


> Ohjo,
> Bless your Heart.
> Since you are kinda new here I know you haven't had a chance to really get to know people on RTF so I'll let you in on a little secret. We try not to talk about it openly cause we don't want to hurt her feelings but you're right. Justice Dog is a little slow. Poor thing is lacking in I.Q. and education. So try to keep it simple for her sake.
> And by the way, she's painfully aware of her short comings and normally doesn't express her opinions. So you probably won't hear back from her.
> Just trying to help in the worst way.
> Becky


What a great inciteful post on marsh mop owners and promoters. I have found this to be true from the east coast to the west coast. Two examples are Pals and Felonie, now thats a pair of blondes, yellows, err I mean goldens. Oh why dont' I just say it Golden Bitches.;-)


----------



## JusticeDog

Becky Mills said:


> Ohjo,
> Bless your Heart.
> Since you are kinda new here I know you haven't had a chance to really get to know people on RTF so I'll let you in on a little secret. We try not to talk about it openly cause we don't want to hurt her feelings but you're right. Justice Dog is a little slow. Poor thing is lacking in I.Q. and education. So try to keep it simple for her sake.
> And by the way, she's painfully aware of her short comings and normally doesn't express her opinions. So you probably won't hear back from her.
> Just trying to help in the worst way.
> Becky


I'm certain this guy also doesn't know what it means when a southern woman says "Bless your Heart".................. 

I'm also certain that this guy has made negative posts in the majority of his 8 posts. I'm also certain that I understand the definition of the word "idiot." I'm also certain that the full intent of OOJ's post was to make a derogatory comment about people he doesn't even know. 

I'm also certain that all of this went over OOJ's head.


----------



## ohohjoe

Whatever ..its all about which click your in..and trying to fit in so you play the politics in hopes of your field trial game..oh and lets not forget all the poeple who get thrown under the bus on here ..
oh and let not forget how many times melanie has been thrown off this site for her behavior and i state my thoughts whatever and you wonder why i only have a few post..to much DRAMA I rest my case


----------



## jeff evans

ohohjoe said:


> Whatever ..its all about which click your in..and trying to fit in so you play the politics in hopes of your field trial game..oh and lets not forget all the poeple who get thrown under the bus on here ..
> oh and let not forget how many times melanie has been thrown off this site for her behavior and i state my thoughts whatever and you wonder why i only have a few post..to much DRAMA I rest my case


Sic him ladies politics bla bla....we've all heard it!


----------



## duk4me

ohohjoe said:


> Whatever ..its all about which click your in..and trying to fit in so you play the politics in hopes of your field trial game..oh and lets not forget all the poeple who get thrown under the bus on here ..
> oh and let not forget how many times melanie has been thrown off this site for her behavior and i state my thoughts whatever and you wonder why i only have a few post..to much DRAMA I rest my case


Reading between the lines, cause I can't read the lines very well, your puppy got dropped due to politics?

Trying to understand your case Perry Mason regards,


----------



## ErinsEdge

Or is OhohJoe really someone's alter ego under another computer.


----------



## JusticeDog

ErinsEdge said:


> Or is OhohJoe really someone's alter ego under another computer.


Seemed that way to me, too!


----------



## ErinsEdge

JusticeDog said:


> Seemed that way to me, too!


(Maybe we shouldn't have let him know we figured it out.)


----------



## EdA

JusticeDog said:


> I'm certain this guy also doesn't know what it means when a southern woman says "Bless your Heart"..................
> .


In the version I tell they go to charm school and learn to say "how nice!" instead of.......awh you know, Chris wouldn't even like the abbreviation


----------



## Sue Kiefer

For the most part the Golden people that have offered their expertise have been in this game for many many yrs. Sorry guys.
Politics in what way???
Guess I'm confused??
Like I say to any Golden newbie. Go watch a bunch of events. What makes you go wow I want a puppy out of that bitch or that stud is the puppy that you should buy.
Not everyone has the same breeding philosophy.
This thread was started to help out a nice gal look for a potential guy for her girl.
She did find that here and allot of good info. was printed.
And we* all* have our own opinions.
Sue


----------



## D Osborn

If ohso gets this thread locked or sent to purgatory I will be pissed. If you have an agenda take it elsewhere, some of us would like to keep it for the history, really. Whistler was still alive when this was written and Carbon had just been born, so the memories are strong. I can promise you if this southern girl starts to say "how nice" the fur will fly.
I could give a rat's patootie about politics, we are all dealt a raw deal at some time, put on your big girl panties and deal with it. 

The dogs we talked about have contributed a great deal and continue to now, and we are so lucky people saw past faults to breed to them, as in our breed even with all your homework done it is a crapshoot. 

Bless all ya'll's hearts, and watch out I'm giving Becky lessons in "how nice....'


----------



## Mike Smith

D Osborn said:


> If ohso gets this thread locked or sent to purgatory I will be pissed.


You won't be the only one.


----------



## Annette

It sure would be great if we could somehow save this thread from any possible lockdown. I guess everyone has to help protect it.


----------



## Becky Mills

D Osborn said:


> If ohso gets this thread locked or sent to purgatory I will be pissed.


Well good gracious. What else do y'all want me to do?
Sigh. I guess I can give it one more try.
Ohjoe, where I come from murder, especially if done in good taste, is more easily forgiven than being intentionally rude. So it would probably be better if you just run along. Otherwise we're liable to get really ugly and start discussing your upbringing.
Thank you for coming.
Bye bye now.


----------



## Mike Smith

We would appeal to your sensible graces. To allow the departed equine to depart peacefully without further flailing.
With your regards of course


----------



## Suzanne Burr

Oh Mercy! I didn't know this thread had come back to life! I should get my nose out of my listings and escrow folders and 'get out more often'. 

Since I've never been much of a breeder--only do it when I have what I consider a quality bitch and then I really only breed to please myself. I've always tried to breed those very few bitches to a certain standard. You won't find me breeding a couple of litters a year or even one a year--I sure as heck won't ever make money doing it, that's for sure. I do it because I love the breed and want to leave a little gene pool behind that will improve what we have now and will carry on into the future. 
I've owned lots of golden girls that I wouldn't breed no matter their pedigree--a case in point was a Cotton x Nell daughter. I just didn't like her and I could never really pinpoint it--attitude? biddability? all of the above? Just a bunch of little things that made me place her in a very nice home where she lived happily ever after--and so did I.
Since we were involved in F/Ts a long time ago, I got to watch some really fine goldens. I took notes, compared pedigrees (had a nifty little folder that allowed me to compare pedigrees very easily--this was a long time before computers). I did stats & charts and watched--really watched the trial dogs in training and at work. There were some to whom I should have bred, but didn't and I've always regretted that. I unfortunately let some people convince me that I shouldn't breed to a young unknown dog--I should stick with the known & titled. Well, sorry, but that was really dumb on my part and thankfully I finally realized it. Not that those dogs aren't worthy--they are, but every now and again, along comes a youngster that shows that special spark, that "Wow" factor that makes one's heart skip a beat or two and he just has to be the one you choose! Glenda Brown had the good sense to see it in a young 'Apache', the Ryska's saw it in Bro. Yes, he was on the Derby list, but he was a handful--I loved that about him. I owned his sister and she was a double handful and my 'heartdog'. 
When I had a chance to judge trials, I loved to judge the Derby & Qual--I still do--they are my favorite stakes. I got to see a lot of natural dog ability. Collars weren't around or were just beginning to show up so there was a good chance to see a lot of the free spirit in a dog. Some would call it something else, but hey this is my 2 cents. 
Anyway, watch the dogs and learn. Ask questions and always, always, take into consideration the health within both sides of the pedigree--check not only the sire and dam, but their siblings, the great grandsire/dams sides & their siblings, cousins, etc. You might be amazed or scared out of your wits when you do so. But whichever it is, it will be worth it to know. It is a long and ongoing process--Gerry C. you got it right--it takes years.

Suzanne B


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## Sue Kiefer

Priceless!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Suzanne.
Sue


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## Pals

duk4me said:


> What a great inciteful post on marsh mop owners and promoters. I have found this to be true from the east coast to the west coast. Two examples are Pals and Felonie, now thats a pair of blondes, yellows, err I mean goldens. Oh why dont' I just say it Golden Bitches.;-)


Why bless your sweet little heart!  I do strive to be more like my darling dogs. Its a work in progress.....you may want to wear some gloves when you go get your mail next week.


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## Klamath Hunting Gold

I have been away for awhile and came back to this! Aaaargh.

While here, I would like to take the time to say thanks to all the golden folks who have taken the time to answer my questions about their dogs. There have been many.

I would especially like to say thanks to Melanie for her time. I think she has spent more time answering questions for me than anyone. She shoots it as she see's it and that's exactly how I like it. We dont always agree; but she has given me so much to chew on about breeding goldens. I appreciate it all.

Another public thanks goes to Dr Dawg. He has supported me in many ways and I appreciate it. I wish like hell I could find or breed a dog like his Casey (Emberain Semper Case of Red). I loved it when Lee would stay with us during a field trial and Casey would be in our back yard. Somewhere there is a photo of Casey and I while we were both sitting on a bench. Casey and I just clicked. I loved that dog and we lost him waaay to soon.

Glenda Brown is another that has supported me, guiding me with e-mails while I was training Amber. She ripped my rear end when I made some silly, novice mistakes and continued to do so later. I love the honesty.

Wished I had more experience when training Amber.... what a nice field bitch to have been "wasted" on a rookie like me. I still have never seen a golden bitch go as hard (out and in) as she. Some go out well out but always seem to lollygag their way in... not this one!

Tomorrow I shoot at a field trial....here's to hoping I see a good golden come by my station.

Randy


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## Chris Atkinson

ohohjoe said:


> Whatever ..its all about which click your in..and trying to fit in so you play the politics in hopes of your field trial game..oh and lets not forget all the poeple who get thrown under the bus on here ..
> oh and let not forget how many times melanie has been thrown off this site for her behavior and i state my thoughts whatever and you wonder why i only have a few post..to much DRAMA I rest my case


Hi Ohohjoe,

I have sent you a PM. 

Please let's get the questions I sent you sorted out privately before you post anymore on RTF. OK? 

thanks, Chris


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## Brian Cockfield

I'm not a Golden enthusiast but from reading this thread from the beginning, there is an incredible amount of information here for Golden owners and potential owners. Thanks to all who contributed. This is the kind of thread that makes RTF an invaluable resource. There is no where else that I know of on the web that you can get the kind of information that RTF offers. For those that set out bring this place down, GO AWAY! We don't need your kind here.


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## Gerry Clinchy

As I read this thread, it's hard to believe it started 5-1/2 years ago!!

It would be interesting to now look back at the offspring of sires mentioned, and see how they have panned out. I can think of a few right off the top of my head that have fulfilled the prophesies made in the thread! Have there been any notable exceptions to that?


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## mlopez

I'm really not trying to resurrect this thread

I just wanted to give a HUGE THANK YOU to all who participated and shared their experiences and knowledge. As a person who has owned a Golden for a little over a year, I know I still have a lot to learn. I don't plan on breeding, but now I know a ton more about how to go about finding my next pup. In fact, Jeannie, if you are looking for a home for that orange girl... Ha! Just kidding, kinda... 

Anyway, I don't know if some of the major contributors still visit RTF, but I just wanted you all to know that your time is appreciated by this newbie.


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## Tim West

I don't know if this has been mentioned and I am not going to go back 42 pages to find out. Judy Carter's dog Red has two Am wins and is an outstanding marker. He is bred often and is clear of the Golden genes that people run from. (don't know what they are).


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## Guest

Tim West said:


> is clear of the Golden genes that people run from.


The uneducated Golden people you mean. ;-)


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## Diane Brunelle

FWIW...this is my favorite all time thread on this Forum. It brought me my Maggie, and great supporters like Val Ducross and Melanie Foster. Also made some nice family friends, Bait for one.
My point is that we Golden owners all love our breed and take breeding very seriously in hopes of bettering the breed. As Melanie and others have said, many hours have been spent on looking at pedigrees and comparing notes on dogs.
Please don't take this thread to an ugly place where our moderators have no choice but to lock it. The information here in this thread is invaluable, priceless and probably cannot be repilcated anywhere else. If you don't care for this thread, please just walk away and leave it to us.
Thank you.
Diane


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## Kent W

Another public thanks goes to Dr Dawg. He has supported me in many ways and I appreciate it. I wish like hell I could find or breed a dog like his Casey (Emberain Semper Case of Red). I loved it when Lee would stay with us during a field trial and Casey would be in our back yard. Somewhere there is a photo of Casey and I while we were both sitting on a bench. Casey and I just clicked. I loved that dog and we lost him waaay to soon.

Randy,

I dont believe I have met you but we have an equal "attraction" to Casey. My wife and I met Lee in 2003 when we bred our "pet" Golden to Cooper. And Lee has been there to answer our questions since. Now with a pup (15 months old running Junior) in our kennel from Casey. We are hitting our stride. Wasnt around RTF when this thread started. But enjoyed reading the valuable information posted here over the years.


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## Fred Warf

Please don't take this thread to an ugly place where our moderators have no choice but to lock it. The information here in this thread is invaluable, priceless and probably cannot be replicated anywhere else. If you don't care for this thread, please just walk away and leave it to us.
Thank you.
Diane

well said and so true


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## Annette

Diane Brunelle said:


> FWIW...this is my favorite all time thread on this Forum. It brought me my Maggie, and great supporters like Val Ducross and Melanie Foster. Also made some nice family friends, Bait for one.
> My point is that we Golden owners all love our breed and take breeding very seriously in hopes of bettering the breed. As Melanie and others have said, many hours have been spent on looking at pedigrees and comparing notes on dogs.
> Please don't take this thread to an ugly place where our moderators have no choice but to lock it. The information here in this thread is invaluable, priceless and probably cannot be repilcated anywhere else. If you don't care for this thread, please just walk away and leave it to us.
> Thank you.
> Diane


Well said Diane and Fred. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Such a wealth of good and invaluable information!


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## Judy Chute

Thanks for another great post, Suzanne!!

Judy


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## John Robinson

Kent W said:


> Another public thanks goes to Dr Dawg. He has supported me in many ways and I appreciate it. I wish like hell I could find or breed a dog like his Casey (Emberain Semper Case of Red). I loved it when Lee would stay with us during a field trial and Casey would be in our back yard. Somewhere there is a photo of Casey and I while we were both sitting on a bench. Casey and I just clicked. I loved that dog and we lost him waaay to soon.
> 
> Randy,
> 
> I dont believe I have met you but we have an equal "attraction" to Casey. My wife and I met Lee in 2003 when we bred our "pet" Golden to Cooper. And Lee has been there to answer our questions since. Now with a pup (15 months old running Junior) in our kennel from Casey. We are hitting our stride. Wasnt around RTF when this thread started. But enjoyed reading the valuable information posted here over the years.


I'm happy to hear somebody bring Casey up. My Alex was out of Casey's last breeding with a Cooper sister, I just love him. Alex isn't quite there on all age water blinds yet, but he is consistently getting to and doing the water blind. Despite my initial misgivings regarding his talent, Alex has turned into a very nice marking dog. He was very consistent in the qualifying with a first, two seconds, three thirds and a fourth. The jury is still out on the all age, but he's a spectacular hunting dog which is what I wanted when I bought him from Lee. 

Here's a pic of Alex duck hunting last fall.


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