# Breeders:Naming rights to a pup



## Wayne Beck (Mar 22, 2010)

When I was in search of a pup last year I came across some of you that had things in your puppy contract that in order for the guarantee to be in place you had to name your pup with part of the kennel name in it.. or you might limit registration if its not registered with the kennel name.. Why do you do this? Kennel recognition? Ego? Has it hurt selling pups because of it?

Im not trying to stir the pot. No offense here but if im buying a pup for 900-2000 bucks I want to name it what i want without having to have your kennel name attached. Plus doesnt the akc limit you to the number of characters before its an extra charge?

I am just trying to understand the logic behind it.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

AKC allows 36 letters and will extend it for a few dollars more. You can use your own name and place the breeders name in there and satisfy everyone. Why? The simple reason is the breeder is the one that did the breeding, that thought to put the two dogs together, not the buyer. The buyer just paid for the dog and traditionally the breeder should be given credit for the success (or failure).


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I always assume the kennel name will be in the pup's name and that I might also have to work with a theme for the litter, start the name with a particular letter of the alphabet or whatever. I also assume that I will have to provide a lot of information about me, references, which the breeder will check, etc, to be able to get a pup from a litter I like.

Not all are like this, of course, but I have never just been able to walk up to a breeder and plunk down some Benjamins and walk away with a pup. And, I don't even get a shot at the really good litters.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

According to the AKC paperwork the BUYER determines the name, the seller has no right to the name. I have bought 1 pup where the seller had filled out part of the name ahead of time, I simple went home whited out the name and put my own in. I would never buy a pup with strings attached, I have heard of breeders that want to control EVERYTHING.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

mngundog said:


> According to the AKC paperwork the BUYER determines the name, the seller has no right to the name. I have bought 1 pup where the seller had filled out part of the name ahead of time, I simple went home whited out the name and put my own in. I would never buy a pup with strings attached, I have heard of breeders that want to control EVERYTHING.


That's right-and now with online registration you can do whatever you want. Even if a dog is AKC named, if it hasn't titled or produced a litter, you can change an entire name. I am like Double Haul, if I think enough of the breeder to buy a pup, I would want the name part of the registered name, but that's just me.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Our policy was that we would be delighted if the buyer used our kennel name and when or if the dog attained an HRCH title we would place an ad in the HUNTING RETRIEVER congratulating the dog, owner and trainer. This was their choice but we felt it was their dog and they should be able to name it. No real strings attached - there are too many people who MUST retain control of everything. I believe in choice. We always tried to treat our clients the way we would like to be treated. We can count on one hand the few times someone gave us a hard time. They were the losers. We may be a lot of things but greed is not one of them and we have been blessed. Thank You Lord.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I prefer not to have to be "forced" to put in the kennel name, but I will try or at least consider it since I don't have my own kennel name (anyone got any suggestions).


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

FOM said:


> I prefer not to have to be "forced" to put in the kennel name, but I will try or at least consider it since I don't have my own kennel name (anyone got any suggestions).


I don't have a kennel, so I don't have a kennel name. But I decided when I bought my first field trial dog that I would name them all "Moneybird's" something or other. Just thought it would be neat to pick something and stay consistent. If I had to name a dog a certain way to get a guarantee I would just go without. I don't really believe in guarantees anyway. I feel that if a breeder tests their dogs and uses clean studs, their work is done and the rest is up to God and Mother Nature. Am I wrong?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

FOM said:


> I prefer not to have to be "forced" to put in the kennel name, but I will try or at least consider it since I don't have my own kennel name (anyone got any suggestions).


You are opening yourself up to "short" kennel names. BTW, I was asked if I was going to grow up to be an elf a few weeks ago at training. 
Maybe something with Sherpa, Overlander


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

There are several reasons. Besides the obvious "label" of the breeder in catalogs and publications, it also makes lookups and tracking of the dogs/kennels records easier in the various registries. A quick search on AKC's website using a kennel name will return all the dogs registered with that kennel name along with titles earned. Likewise a search on OFA's website will show how many of the kennels dogs are being tested and if the breeder is succeeding in producing sound, healthy dogs. Also makes it easier for the breeder to check to see if their screening techniques for the buyers of their pups is working in getting their pups registered and health checked. 

T Mac


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Buzz said:


> Am I wrong?


No, you are not wrong. I can also see the point of the folks who say that it is as much or more the training than the breeding that puts the titles on the dog, so they want to use their own kennel names. It is a personal thing and I am sure some folks will have strong opinions about it. For me, it is no big deal. If the breeder wants me to do it, I have no problems, even if it makes me struggle with the name a little bit. I think it shows some respect for all the work that goes in to some breedings to do so.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FOM said:


> I don't have my own kennel name (anyone got any suggestions).


why Elkslayer of course


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## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

Buzz said:


> I don't have a kennel, so I don't have a kennel name. But I decided when I bought my first field trial dog that I would name them all "Moneybird's" something or other. Just thought it would be neat to pick something and stay consistent. If I had to name a dog a certain way to get a guarantee I would just go without. I don't really believe in guarantees anyway. I feel that if a breeder tests their dogs and uses clean studs, their work is done and the rest is up to God and Mother Nature. Am I wrong?


I agree with if a breeder tests all their dogs and studs are clean guarantees are somewhat of a mute point. The way I look at it, basic care, socialization, and training costs the price of the puppy is most likely going to be the least expensive part of owning the pup. By the time you can have OFA certify hips at 24 months you have way more invested than the small refund you get from a breeder. Even excellent to excellent has a percentage that could have challenges.

Just my .02.


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## COgoosehunter24 (Feb 10, 2010)

Buzz said:


> I don't have a kennel, so I don't have a kennel name. But I decided when I bought my first field trial dog that I would name them all "Moneybird's" something or other. Just thought it would be neat to pick something and stay consistent. If I had to name a dog a certain way to get a guarantee I would just go without. I don't really believe in guarantees anyway. I feel that if a breeder tests their dogs and uses clean studs, their work is done and the rest is up to God and Mother Nature. Am I wrong?


I'm kind of the same way. I decided I would put "Bay's ...." this way when I start getting into breeding later on I put my own touch on it. If the breeders want there kennel name on the dogs registered name I'll consider it but unless it will fit into that sequence I have started I won use it. The breeders name is on the pedigree paper and if it's there dog either he site or dam the kennel name will be on the pedigree there as well


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## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

However if the puppy contract says include the kennel name or the contract is void, are you not worried about the puppy contract?


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

If the breeder wants me to use their kennel name I have no problem incorporating it somewhere in the registered name. If the breeder does not care, I usually do not use it.

I am not that concerned regarding the contract, but if the breeder wants me to use it, I will out of respect for their wishes.

Andy


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Andy Carlson said:


> If the breeder wants me to use their kennel name I have no problem incorporating it somewhere in the registered name. If the breeder does not care, I usually do not use it.
> 
> I am not that concerned regarding the contract, but if the breeder wants me to use it, I will out of respect for their wishes.
> 
> Andy


Yes, like I said I don't care about a contract either. If I wasn't comfortable about clearances and such I wouldn't be putting my money down in the first place. A guarantee is a very small consolation if a dog you love and have worked hard to bring along in training ends up with a genetic problem.

And I would have no problem incorporating a kennel name. I just plan to have all my dogs named consistently which means they'll be Moneybird's something or other.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I do ask that people use my name Hope Springs as part of the puppy contract and most are delighted to do so. What I dislike is the Johnny-come-lately types that have started breeding Chesapeakes within the past few years, many that have only bred one or two litters, and insist you use their kennel name which is emblazoned on their vehicles, facebook page, etc. Yet they do not afford this courtesy to the people they got their own dogs from, most from well known breeders. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

I have one dog that it was part of the deal and one that wasn't. In my mind it made it somewhat easier to come up with a registered name using the kennel name. I like using their name personally. Now if someone wants to make up a decal or a magnet I will gladly advertise on my vehicle for them for a certain amount per year. lol


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Well all I gotta say is if you are going to buy a Weezie puppy you better plan on using these terms, in no particular order:
Awesome
Fluffy
Beaver


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

the requirement of naming with the breeders kennel name is all about "branding" and "brand development". the development of a brand and the brand's recognition is a key to product marketing. i don't think ego is the issue.

look above for instance at the adds and slogans:

Tritronics-"The leader in electronic dog training equipment for over 40 years" do any of us doubt it?

Dogs Afield-"Online store, Your dog training equipment connection" i bet they have just what i need!

breeders of dogs and "kennel owners" develop brands just like companies. some may have a brand strategy they work hard for a lifetime to develop. what do we think of when we hear, "cleo watson's, gator points kennels"? do i think fc, afc, grhrch, hrch, mh? sure i do, *but i think "CHOCOLATE fc, afc, hrch........"* 

consider the "Candlewoods" brand. what comes to mind? i think of *"great **field trial breedings and dogs, yesterday and today"*. super tanker. lottie, ramblin man, and on, and on, and on........!

don't tell me that you would have a problem if you wanted to buy and were chosen to own a pup out of one of the two kennels mentioned above, and the ladies who own those kennels asked you to include her kennel name. i know i would be proud to own a candlewoods named or gator pt's named dog. hell, i am proud to see their "brand" on my dogs pedigrees regardless of what generation it falls.

likewise, i would offer the same respect to a newer breeder who was "building a brand". if i really wanted a dog from a new, up and coming or occaisional breeder's breeding i would name it "Back Yard Bessy" if i was asked. 

what's the big deal? you wouldn't run around and say, "come here little candlewoods m d houston!" they all have the call name of your choice anyway.

Lainee, since you are in Fountain, Co, how about "Fountain Lain Retrievers"?


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by FOM
> I don't have my own kennel name (anyone got any suggestions).
> 
> ...


I am kinda partial to Sherpa labs


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

If you buy a puppy from someone who doesn't have a kennel name they just have 1 dog but they bred it to a stud from a well known kennel do you need to get permission from the studs owner to use their kennel name?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Scott Parker said:


> If you buy a puppy from someone who doesn't have a kennel name they just have 1 dog but they bred it to a stud from a well known kennel do you need to get permission from the studs owner to use their kennel name?


Those are only for names registered with AKC. Most field Lab breeders don't do that.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

All I can say is that I am very, very proud to have Westwind in my chessie's name. When we searched out a breeder, that was the one that always showed up with the traits we were looking for. My labs both came from very good pedigrees, but not with the history of success that Wendy Chisolm has with her peakes. No one ever suggested that we must use that name, but I actually asked permission to!


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Good breeders care deeply about the puppies they produce and want to put their brand name on those pups. It is a way of saying "I bred this puppy and I am one of the points of reference for the parts used to create this puppy." It is a way of saying: "I have tried to produce a good litter of puppies." If a breeder DIDN'T WANT you to use the breeder's kennel name in registering the pup, then you might have a problem.

Why do car manufacturers use Ford, or Porsche, or Mercedes? Would you buy a car from a car dealer who said "I can't tell you who made this car and you don't need to know the parts that went into it."

Breeders who require their kennel name in a pup's registered name are not necessarily being egoists: they are taking responsibility for the good and the bad in each of those pups. You can look up my kennel name in show and hunt test results, on the OFA website, and in numerous other places and find I produced some good pups, some not-so-good pups and some health issues. BUT, at least, when you want to trace show, field, and health issues, you can use my kennel name and pretty well get a pretty good picture of my breeding through out the years. And the reason it is so easy is because EVERY puppy I ever bred has my kennel name. 

It is a way for other breeders and puppy owners and potential puppy owners to trace every single puppy I have ever bred by entering my kennel name in numerous data bases. A long time ago I started registering my pups with my kennel name before they were ever sold. The buyer gets to choose the name but, normally, I ask them to choose a name fitting into a theme for that litter. Why a theme? Because then most people who are deeply interested in my breed will automatically know the sire and dam of the litter or at least the littermates and know the success or lack there-of of those pups.

People who breed a litter and use their kennel name as part of the registered name should, in my opinion, be applauded, not criticized, because they are willing to take the responsibility for saying: I bred this litter using every means I know to try to produce a great litter.

If you say, for instance, the "Ptarmigan Storm litter", most people in my breed will know what you are talking about. Or for other litters I didn't breed but in my breed: the "Bug" litter; the "International" litter; the "Frozen" litter; etc., etc. 

If you went to Best Buy and said "I want to buy a computer" and the guy said: "Okay. But we are not going to tell you what brand you are buying", would you buy it? 

Breeding dogs is way more complex than manufacturing computers. WHY wouldn't you want to know your dog's grandfather was a Candlewood dog? 

We know certain bloodlines from kennels may produce certain traits in a higher percentage than other bloodlines. If you looked at a labrador pedigree with lots of Candlewood dogs, would you be upset because you knew there were lots of Candlewood dogs behind the puppy you are considering buying? 

J. Marti


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

roseberry said:


> the requirement of naming with the breeders kennel name is all about "branding" and "brand development". the development of a brand and the brand's recognition is a key to product marketing. i don't think ego is the issue.


Yep, that about sums it up.


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

Using a kennel name in the registered name is standard in Flat-Coats and it doesn't bother me as much as having to conform to a "theme" for the litter. I can even live with that. What I don't like are the breeders who retain final say on breeding decisions or those that require a co-ownership. 

The worst I've come across, though, was a breeder that required all of the above AND retained the right to take my bitch back to breed her, whelp the litter and sell all the puppies from her first litter! At the time and to the stud dog of HER choice, regardless of what I had going on. This was a full price, $1,500 puppy! When I asked where the clause was stipulating how all the veterinary care, training and food costs would be split 50/50, she was appalled! Needless to say, I moved on down the road... rather quickly.

I just don't understand why some breeders feel they deserve such control over someone else's dog for years to come!??!


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## Wayne Beck (Mar 22, 2010)

Thank you for all of the responses.. I wasn't really trying to get anyone riled up. I was just simply trying to get a breeder's perspective. It was something that weighed on my mind for a while.. I know not all breeders are the same. But Last year when I was looking for a pup I probably talked to about 15 breeders up and down the east coast. That was before I found RTF. I talked to one who who gave me all sorts of attitude about the kennel name registration and if I didnt put the name in they wouldnt follow thru on the health guarantee and would also give me limited registration. That made me feel like ego won out there. I know candlewoods and gator point have great breeding programs. i am in no way trying to put anyones kennel down. I guess its one of those things for me personally that I dont like being told i have to do something.. 

I get the building a brand thing, but why hold back a health guarantee because you didnt put the kennel name in.. You gave the example of a car.. ok. So i got to the ford dealer. buy a new f-350 but now i cant get the factory warranty unless i do the sales managers wife on the 3rd sunday after a blue moon in august? Its just stupid.. especially if the breeder stands behind the health of a pup. a health guarantee should stand regardless if you name it spot jones or (kennel name)'s smells like sweaty balls.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Wayne Beck said:


> I get the building a brand thing, but why hold back a health guarantee because you didnt put the kennel name in..


Because it was in the contract to which the buyer agreed. If buyer doesn't like said contract, they move on to another litter. It is not up to the breeder to follow through with their obligations if the buyer doesn't.



> You gave the example of a car.. ok. So i got to the ford dealer. buy a new f-350 but now i cant get the factory warranty unless i do the sales managers wife on the 3rd sunday after a blue moon in august?


If you don't like the contract, walk away from it. I went with a Dodge for this very reason.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Melanie Foster said:


> Because it was in the contract to which the buyer agreed. If buyer doesn't like said contract, they move on to another litter. It is not up to the breeder to follow through with their obligations if the buyer doesn't.
> 
> If you don't like the contract, walk away from it. I went with a Dodge for this very reason.


But are all sellers up front about this? The one I bought from didn't mention anything till I showed up. If the AKC has felt the need the say that the seller gets to pick the name, and the breeder feels otherwise they should list that on there site, not spring on them last minute. If the Seller doesn't want to follow through with the AKCs rules they could just move along to the next registration. I have nothing against anyone "suggesting" placing there kennel name on the registration as long as it is just that. I also understand the brand thing, but the buyer might want to put his own brand on it,


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

mngundog said:


> But are all sellers up front about this? The one I bought from didn't mention anything till I showed up.


I have absolutely no idea. Sorry about your experience but I have signed contracts in hand when deposits are sent so everything is out on the table.



> If the Seller doesn't want to follow through with the AKCs rules they could just move along to the next registration.


Remind us again what the AKC rules are?


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

mn,
unless stated otherwise in the contract, nothing would prevent a buyer from also including their own kennel name in the dog's registered name. for instance if i bought a chessie from julie and wished to use my kennel name i might name the dog "roseberry's hope springs eternal" call name "misty" (as in opto"misty")

that may be a stupid example and stupid name but all i'm sayin' is there is always a way to find a "win:win" if one is creative and not too contrary! also, if you post it up as a name game on rtf you gonna get something that meets everyones objectives.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Melanie Foster said:


> I have absolutely no idea. Sorry about your experience but I have signed contracts in hand when deposits are sent so everything is out on the table.
> 
> Remind us again what the AKC rules are?


Right on the registration it says "The Registering owner has the right to name the dog".


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Bam's first name is Oakdale, just so I can hassle Vicky about it.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

The person looking for a pup makes decisions constantly as the process of purchasing a pup moves along. It is seldom ever the case the buyer is left in the dark about what is in the contract/bill of sale/guarantee. The contract and the discussion around it is often done in the first three telephone calls or email exchanges.

The original poster raised the issue of breeder's ego as being a factor in why they want the kennel name in the registered name of the pup. Well the $900 -$2000 a pup you the original poster are about to pay for a pup should come "without strings". It strikes me there is a much to be said about ones ego in that statement.

Let some of the breeders take up some of your time in going into detail of all the time, testing and expense of putting a desirable litter out there. If the breeders of quality dogs are laying it on the line because they have put the time and trouble into their dogs then they have my blessing for the work they have done.

Tell some of the top breeders who have spent decades developing their line of dogs through a particular breeding program to "stick it"because you are not going to use their kennel name. You will have the satifaction of showing them that your $900-$2000 will not be spent on any pup they put on the ground and human nature being what it is you be assured they will not darken your door step with their presence.
In the end you don't have to buy the pup from the breeder who has the use of their kennel name in the contract of sale but you are only limiting your choice of pups and potentially great dogs.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

mn,
the rules state the buyer has the *right* to name the dog. i don't believe the AKC rules giving the buyer the *right to name *would nullify the buyers *obligation to use the seller's kennel name *if that obligation was established in the purchase contract.

in other words, you have the right to name the dog whatever you wish as far as the AKC is concerned. if you signed a purchase contract with a seller that stated you would use their kennel name, you are previously obligated to use that name when you exercise your right to name.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Pals said:


> Well all I gotta say is if you are going to buy a Weezie puppy you better plan on using these terms, in no particular order:
> Awesome
> Fluffy
> Beaver


Pal's Awesome Beaver Fluffer

Call name "Wood"


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## Larry Thompson1 (Apr 19, 2011)

I have not and will not by a pup with strings attached to the registration. The breeder may suggest that I use the kennel name. Its just a suggestion

I name my dogs according to my kennel name and when breedings are done I sell the pups with no strings. I suggest that they use my kennel name only so that if they wish to breed there pup its more recognized as to where it came from. I would not try to inforce this on anyone.

This is still a some what a free society and I belive if you pay for pup you should be able to name it what the heck you want.


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## THE LAB GUY (Jul 29, 2009)

Breeders do it to protect them,and there puppies and like someone said it is like a brand, and also not that they have control for ever just protecting the dog until 2 so it is not bred before the clearances are done to protect there lines that they have worked hard to get. Simple if it is in the contract and you don't do it , it will void all of your guarantee's just like if you sold it to another person the contract is only good the the first time buyer. Plus the breeder will put a lot of time effort and money it there there breeding. But it is not an ego deal if someone doesn't like it then buy from a back yard breeder out of the paper and get what you pay for. My 2 cents I don't see what the big deal is. Maybe buy a cheaper dog then. I don't know


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Kevinismybrother said:


> I am kinda partial to Sherpa labs


That's David's Kennel name for sure. Not sure if it should roll over to Lainee or not though.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

I think that some people are missing the point. In my mind the point is about respect and pride, not about ego and control. When I have bought my puppies I have researched the breedings thoroughly. Once I have made my decision and I am on a list, I am excited and proud about my potential new puppy. I respect what the breeder has gone through to produce a quality puppy, and with great pride I begin my new pups name with the kennel name of the breeder.

Respectfully,
Colleen


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Wayne Beck said:


> .. You gave the example of a car.. ok. So i got to the ford dealer. buy a new f-350 ......


think of it this way,
if you work hard and save up and buy that F-350
are ya gonna go to the DMV and register it as a Chevy S-10?????
No! 
Your not gonna hide what you got from your budies at the deer camp. 
Your gonna be loud and proud!
　
.


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## José Nijssen (Feb 4, 2008)

You should all be glad you don't live in the Netherlands. :-x
The Dutch Kennelclub in all it's wisdom changed their rules about naming puppies a couple of years ago. Within 14 days after they are born, the breeder has to inform the KC about the litter, and the number of males / females ánd the names for the males and females. Not which male /female puppy gets which name just yet. That gets decided the day the pups are microchipped, normally between 5-8 weeks of age.

So almost impossible for a buyer to determin the name of their new pup. For a breeder who likes one of the chosen names best, the day the microchip goes in, is the day you decide which puppy you are going to keep.

No way a dog's name can be altered later in life. What more good news do I have for you. I'ld better stop.

A couple of months ago we bought a truely wonderful American puppy. Credits where credits are due, we did not want f.i. our kennelname in the name of the pup. We are proud of our Firemark Zinspiration, we chose to have a Firemark pup. It's not a Dreamweaver pup, it's a Firemark.
That's how we see it.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

dreamweaver said:


> You should all be glad you don't live in the Netherlands. :-x
> The Dutch Kennelclub in all it's wisdom changed their rules about naming puppies a couple of years ago. Within 14 days after they are born, the breeder has to inform the KC about the litter, and the number of males / females ánd the names for the males and females. Not which male /female puppy gets which name just yet. That gets decided the day the pups are microchipped, normally between 5-8 weeks of age.
> 
> So almost impossible for a buyer to determin the name of their new pup. For a breeder who likes one of the chosen names best, the day the microchip goes in, is the day you decide which puppy you are going to keep.
> ...


I agree with this logic.

I chose to NOT use my former name of "Maximus" in my current lab's name to give credit and pay honor to the breeder - North Star. 

Wayne, I think it is a waste of time and energy to begrudge the one breeder out of over a dozen who gave you unpleasant vibes. Just move on and forget it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

As in all things related to purchase and sale, I think that every seller gets to place whatever conditions he or she wants, and every buyer gets to do the same

I have had puppy sales fall through because the seller and I could not reach agreement concerning price or health guarantees. That's just the way it works. You move on, no hard feelings.

All of my dogs' names start with the Freeridin Prefix. I like the name. It has been the prefix for four field champions - that I worked hard to title. I have registered the name with the AKC and when I get a puppy, I spend alot of time thinking about its name and its name will start with the prefix Freeridin. That's just me. 

If I ever bred one of my bitches, would I insist on the prefix for puppies I sold? I doubt it. I am not looking to establish a brand as a breeder. I am looking to establish a brand as a competitor. 

Freeridin is my prefix for the dogs I campaign and I like it that way. 

If I really wanted a puppy, would I put another prefix in front? Maybe

I don't think that there is a right or wrong here.

I just think that there are personal preferences.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

ltrollin said:


> This is still a some what a free society and I belive if you pay for pup you should be able to name it what the heck you want.


You left out a key characteristic of a free society. That is, the buyer and seller *mutually agree* upon terms without influence of outside agencies.

If a buyer can find a breeder who doesn't require a kennel name, he/she can pass on the breeders that do.

If a breeder can find buyers that will comply with the Kennel Name, he/she can pass on the buyers that refuse.

That's a free marketplace. 

Jim


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I don't think that there is a right or wrong here.
> 
> I just think that there are personal preferences.



I don't know Ted. According to some of the comments I see here, you might have to settle for a cheaper and lesser bred dog. I kinda figured that if you have a successful dog, the breeder gets credit every time a catalog gets published with your dog's entry in it. But I could be wrong...


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

FOM said:


> I prefer not to have to be "forced" to put in the kennel name, but I will try or at least consider it since I don't have my own kennel name (anyone got any suggestions).


Gnomeland Retrievers.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

ltrollin said:


> I have not and will not by a pup with strings attached to the registration. The breeder may suggest that I use the kennel name. Its just a suggestion
> 
> I name my dogs according to my kennel name and when breedings are done I sell the pups with no strings. I suggest that they use my kennel name only so that if they wish to breed there pup its more recognized as to where it came from. I would not try to inforce this on anyone.


Congratulations on creating such a highly recognized breeding program that people will want to use your kennel name! Now what was that name again...


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

EBBY VON MOULIN DE RAMSTIN - call name Ebby is one of the German females I brought back in 2005. In Germany the breeder has to name all the pups when they register the litter. No choices


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm relatively new to all of this and I've only bought 2 pups in the last 6yrs. One was from a kennel and I was more than happy to include the breeders kennel name in my pups name. I also picked the rest of my pups name to compliment his sires name. My 2nd pup didn't come from a kennel. I bought it from an individual breeder. This pup's name is something completely my own. 

However, if I were to have the honor of purchasing a pup from a highly acclaimed kennel you can bet your sweet buns I'd be more than happy to include the kennel name in the dogs registered name


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I don't require my kennel name be part of the registered name, but I surely do appreciate it. And it's not hard to combine with another...just for example (and with all due respect to Ted  ) if he got a pup from me, it could be named something like "Freeridin Red Branch Mallard Muncher". That way, both kennel names get used, and when the dog is sitting on the table next to the NAFC trophy  people would know where the dog came from in addition to who owns it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

When a dog is really good, people have
a way of finding out who the dog's sire and dam
are


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

we have used 

Sourdough out of respect to Charlie Bunn

Rascal out of respect for Ray Goodrich

Hiwood out of respect for Mr/Mrs McFall

Pekisko out of respect for Sharon van der Loo


none made us, it worked for everyone..it's all good


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> When a dog is really good, people have
> a way of finding out who the dog's sire and dam
> are


True...but that doesn't tell much about the kennel or breeder. And often, people don't look much further than the pedigree.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

T-Pines said:


> I think that some people are missing the point. In my mind the point is about respect and pride, not about ego and control. When I have bought my puppies I have researched the breedings thoroughly. Once I have made my decision and I am on a list, I am excited and proud about my potential new puppy. I respect what the breeder has gone through to produce a quality puppy, and with great pride I begin my new pups name with the kennel name of the breeder.


Absolutely! I am super proud of the kennel name that my pup bares. I didn't even think twice about it. I also think that breeders are (or should be) proud of their litters and want them to keep their "branding" if you will. Just like I kept my maiden name as a middle name after getting married. I'm proud of my family and it connects me to my relatives. Just like my pup's kennel name connects him to all other dogs his breeder has bred.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I agree that breeders asking for their "prefix" to be included in the name is reasonable, and an indication that the breeder is willing to take responsibility, not only for the good, but the bad they produce. It is their brand ... and they are willing to stand behind it. 

When breeders have respect for other breeders they are also likely to include the stud's "prefix" in the pup names even when not asked to do so. Takes 2 to tango, you know.

But there are other reasons for using a consistent prefix on the dogs produced. As mentioned earlier, it makes research easier when checking AKC or OFA records. Also think about the CNM "white list" ... I haven't seen it, but wouldn't surprise me if it's in alphabetical order. Almost every database searches by alpha order.

And, we need to share our failures with each other, as well as our successes. Enough time in dog breeding, and you know there are always some failures, whether on health issues or working quality. A breeder who places their brand on their dogs is not afraid to own up to that. Dog breeders try to put God & Mother Nature in the puppies' favor. Seeing which combos work well & which don't is useful to that breeder and to other breeders! 

If a pup somebody has today carries one of my dogs in its pedigree 3 generations back, and the intervening breeders are no longer around, that present pup-owner has an additional resource to turn to if they have questions about health issues in the dog's ancestry. Not to mention that I am interested in learning such info on subsequent generations. (I use limited registration on pups I produce, but my prefix still has come to play a role in several pedigrees of other breeders over time.)

Yes, "famous" dogs won't have any trouble having their pedigree recognized, but there are lots of puppies that don't become famous. I placed a pup in a wonderful hunting home on Cape Cod. The dog is a wonderful housepet and a pretty heavy-duty duck hunter. He will never become "famous", but I'm very happy to know that he carries my prefix. 

In doing pedigree research through the OFA website, I have been stunned to find the names of some pretty "famous" dogs in the ancestry of dogs who had no recognizable kennel prefix. For those who may wonder why they got such a good hunting dog from the guy next door, you might find that there are genes back there that might be a significant contribution to that outcome. 

It's in my puppy contract to use the prefix ... but I've never had anyone make a fuss over it. I don't "threaten" that it will void the warranty. I tried a theme litter once, and it was just too much hassle. In the very old days, breeders kept track of their litters by using alpha letters. All pups from the "A" litter would have names beginning with "A", and so on. It was helpful to the breeder, and others, to quickly identify the particular breeding combo. I don't know what they did when they got beyond 26 litters 

For those who have not yet (or may never) whelp a litter, it is hard to imagine how much a breeder puts into planning and caring for a litter ... and the heartbreak and tears that can result when things go wrong. So that prefix may be not only a "brand", but also a badge of merit for those who are willing to persevere in the face of Mother Nature's hard knocks.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> I agree that breeders asking for their "prefix" to be included in the name is reasonable, and an indication that the breeder is willing to take responsibility, not only for the good, but the bad they produce. It is their brand ... and they are willing to stand behind it.
> 
> When breeders have respect for other breeders they are also likely to include the stud's "prefix" in the pup names even when not asked to do so. Takes 2 to tango, you know.
> 
> ...


Well stated... I am in a 5-year cycle of "mother nature hard knocks" right now in my 25 plus year breeding program: 6 frozen semen surgical breedings with six different qualified vets and doing everything right with prog. timing and no pups produced from those litters. 

If you don't breed, you may not understand the financial and emotional investment of reputable breeders. I respect other breeders and use their prefix on pups purchased and ask that clients use my my kennel name. Great discussion on both sides.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

To each his/her own


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

BTW, I see nothing wrong with the owner adding their own prefix to the name as well. If someone has, or is building, their reputation as a fine trainer and handler, I can easily understand why they would like their "brand" on their dogs, too.

Using a breeder's prefix is just a way of saying, "Thank you for breeding good dogs."


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Let us say you ask for a pedigree for the sire and dam of a litter in deciding whether you will buy a pup from this litter. What if the owner of the dam of the litter says "Mary Howley of Candlewood bred this dam." But the dam doesn't have a registered name with Candlewood in the name.

Would you believe the dam of the litter was bred by Mary Howley of Candlewood? Would you automatically believe it or would you have to go out and find out if the dam was, indeed, bred by Candlewood?

Lots of breeders give lots of leeway in naming pups but require their kennel prefix somewhere in the name--again because the breeder believes it is the responsible thing to do. 

When pups from puppy farms show up in pet shops, the breeders of those pups often try to hide the fact they bred the pup. Often because the pups were raised in sub-standard conditions from sub-standard parents with no health clearances and nothing other than being stuck in a cage as a puppy producing machine, the breeder wants to hide.

To me, being a responsible breeder means naming each of my pups with my prefix so everyone understands I might have bred the great pup in the litter and the bad pup in the litter. 

I am concerned too many people no longer want to "sign off on their work." That is what a kennel prefix on a dog's registered name is: it is the signature of the breeder saying: "I did this work and I am responsible for it."

Kennel prefixes make it easier for every responsible person--puppy buyers, other breeders, breed historians, companion pup owners, etc., etc.--to review the work of other breeders. As far as guarantees related to kennel prefixes: again, if the breeder is going to stand behind his work, doesn't he/she deserve to name a dog who becomes great or good or, most of all, a beloved, valued companion? 

I think it would be more a compromise of freedom to tell the Apple company it cannot sell its phone as an I-phone. Let the consumer name it: maybe Droid, maybe Blackberry, maybe Goon. Who knows? What would the world be like if no one could use a brand name?

If breeders don't want to use or want to require a puppy buyer to use a kennel name in registering a pup, that is their business. Breeders who do require using the prefix aren't control freaks--they are just people who understand it might be important to be able to trace the breeding of a particular dog in a very easy manner.
J. Marti


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> I am concerned too many people no longer want to "sign off on their work." That is what a kennel prefix on a dog's registered name is: it is the signature of the breeder saying: "I did this work and I am responsible for it."


Very well put, I think.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

I have been thinking about this topic for a couple of days. I do not know how rare or common it is, but my puppy comes from a dam that is co-owned by two very good kennels. Each of these kennel names have 11 and 10 letters for a total of 22 letters. I like to put each dog's color in the name as a tribute to our first dog as a married couple (our puppy would be the fourth tribute to Silver Bells- mini Schnauzer - she died on Mother's Day at 16 years old). Our puppy is chocolate so you do the math and there is nothing left. Lucky for me the breeder who raised the puppies did not require his kennel name and he did not state that the co-owner had a requirement to use her kennel name. My first loyalty is to Silver Bells, so if the breeders would have required their kennel names I would have had to pass on a great puppy. Two of my other dogs do have the kennel name, but it is only one and not two. The third dog was from a guy who did not have a kennel name.

How would you make co-kennel names work in a registration, if you also had a kennel name?

Terri


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Terri said:


> I have been thinking about this topic for a couple of days. I do not know how rare or common it is, but my puppy comes from a dam that is co-owned by two very good kennels. Each of these kennel names have 11 and 10 letters for a total of 22 letters. I like to put each dog's color in the name as a tribute to our first dog as a married couple (our puppy would be the fourth tribute to Silver Bells- mini Schnauzer - she died on Mother's Day at 16 years old). Our puppy is chocolate so you do the math and there is nothing left. Lucky for me the breeder who raised the puppies did not require his kennel name and he did not state that the co-owner had a requirement to use her kennel name. My first loyalty is to Silver Bells, so if the breeders would have required their kennel names I would have had to pass on a great puppy. Two of my other dogs do have the kennel name, but it is only one and not two. The third dog was from a guy who did not have a kennel name.
> 
> How would you make co-kennel names work in a registration, if you also had a kennel name?
> 
> Terri


You can pay extra for more letters. You can ask them if they would be ok with Slvr instead of Silver. I think it is a fine idea.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Abbreviate the kennel names if possible. Case in point, I owned a Gator Point pup with the name of Gator Pt Remember Nine Eleven = 29 spaces which is important for me to keep names at or under 30 spaces which is all that UKC allows. Another example would be Firehouselabs Swift water ResQ. Or Firehouses Fireboat H2O Cannon (water wouldn't fit), and Firehouselabs Annie Annie U Ok (U instead of You). I also bred a dog with by the name of Firehouses Nodaway Atthe Wheel, which incorporated Firehouselabs (me) and Nodaway retrievers (new owner) by "mushing" At and The together it fit. Using the letter N instead of And or numbers instead of letters can help cut down on the spaces as well. You just have to be clever about it !


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

If you want to play the UKC games you have to keep the name under 30. I'm not too clever on the names and that is why my puppy is still not registered at 101/2 months. My husband keeps telling me to just put the names in the hat and pull one out.

Terri


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Hurry up, Terri. If you wait longer than 12 mos, AKC charges you more to register the pup!


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## Texas star (Mar 29, 2009)

I would just pay respect to sire or dam or some dog in the pedigree it's call respect of the blood line


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

A fair contract is 2 sided. I see no reason if someone doesn't want to use a breeders' kennel name, for that breeder to have a clause that withholds health guarantees, or at least not be so generous, should something come up. I for one won't change a limited to full if someone can't at least give me that acknowledgement as breeder. 

I think it's a shame when someone buys a well bred dog from an established breeder then names it something stupid like Miss Daisy Duke. Come on....


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

windycanyon said:


> A fair contract is 2 sided. I see no reason if someone doesn't want to use a breeders' kennel name, for that breeder to have a clause that withholds health guarantees, or at least not be so generous, should something come up. I for one won't change a limited to full if someone can't at least give me that acknowledgement as breeder.
> 
> I think it's a shame when someone buys a well bred dog from an established breeder then names it something stupid like Miss Daisy Duke. Come on....


That sounds fair, since in most cases it is not worth the time or hassle to deal with guarantee from an unreasonable breeder. If a breeder is that controlling of a person, you would probably have to go to court to have the guarantee enforced, not worth the time.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i guess we are talking about apples and oranges. i can see myself looking at a MH X HRCH breeding i liked and saying, "that breeder is too controling, i don't like their requirements, i am the one bringing the $700 to the table here! I'M OUT!"

let's use a recent hypothetical example for the other side. jolly dog(Ms. McClure) has a litter confirmed by ultrasound and 9 deposits on file. pups are 2xNAFC Lean Mac X AFC Gracie. i learn that 10 pups were whelped, and i want the last, unspoken for pup bad. i convince her that i am as competitive a home as the others she has deposits from and that i am a better placement than the other hundred people wanting this pup.(even though jolly dog has never heard of me) then when she finally says, "you are the man, we have a deal, send your deposit, but you have to use my kennel name."(i personally have no idea or knowledge about Ms. McClure's requirements as a breeder or for the use of her kennel name) under those circustances as i rush to the post office to mail my deposit check, i can see myself saying, "that is a real dog breeder there, her requirements are soooo reasonable, all i brought to the table was $??,??? and SHE PICKED ME, YEAAAAAA!!!"

a breeder of a truely elite litters can dictate terms to most buyers and will never need the money of a little wanna be like me. hey, at least i realize it.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

roseberry said:


> i guess we are talking about apples and oranges. i can see myself looking at a MH X HRCH breeding i liked and saying, "that breeder is too controling, i don't like their requirements, i am the one bringing the $700 to the table here! I'M OUT!"
> 
> let's use a recent hypothetical example for the other side. jolly dog(Ms. McClure) has a litter confirmed by ultrasound and 9 deposits on file. pups are 2xNAFC Lean Mac X AFC Gracie. i learn that 10 pups were whelped, and i want the last, unspoken for pup bad. i convince her that i am as competitive a home as the others she has deposits from and that i am a better placement than the other hundred people wanting this pup.(even though jolly dog has never heard of me) then when she finally says, "you are the man, we have a deal, send your deposit, but you have to use my kennel name."(i personally have no idea or knowledge about Ms. McClure's requirements as a breeder or for the use of her kennel name) under those circustances as i rush to the post office to mail my deposit check, i can see myself saying, "that is a real dog breeder there, her requirements are soooo reasonable, all i brought to the table was $??,??? and SHE PICKED ME, YEAAAAAA!!!"
> 
> a breeder of a truely elite litters can dictate terms to most buyers and will never need the money of a little wanna be like me. hey, at least i realize it.


I completely agree with you on this hypothetical.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

FOM said:


> I prefer not to have to be "forced" to put in the kennel name, but I will try or at least consider it since I don't have my own kennel name (anyone got any suggestions).


 
Gnome Hill Kennel
Gnomewood
Gnome Power


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

mngundog said:


> That sounds fair, since in most cases it is not worth the time or hassle to deal with guarantee from an unreasonable breeder. If a breeder is that controlling of a person, you would probably have to go to court to have the guarantee enforced, not worth the time.


So... let me get this straight... you think it's "controlling" to *ask* you to use a breeder's kennel name? Really????


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

windycanyon said:


> So... let me get this straight... you think it's "controlling" to *ask* you to use a breeder's kennel name? Really????


No not a bit, I never ever said it is controlling to ask, and I think it is perfectly fair to ask. I don't believe I ever made the statement, but if it came across that way it was not my intention.


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

MikeBoley said:


> Gnome Hill Kennel
> Gnomewood
> Gnome Power


Or maybe...."Gnome-ans-land"


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

mngundog said:


> No not a bit, I never ever said it is controlling to ask, and I think it is perfectly fair to ask. I don't believe I ever made the statement, but if it came across that way it was not my intention.


Okay, that's good... I wasn't sure what you were trying to say there!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Gnome-body Home


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