# "if it fly's it dies"



## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Does that statement bother anyone else? Met a guy today at the propeller repair shop. He had a duck band in his ear as an earring clevis. Pretty cool. Asked him if he was a duck hunter, and those were the first words out of his mouth. 

We talked ducks , and he appeared to be a good guy, but I couldn't get over the initial statement. Bothered me. He was not young. Though, I hear this quite frequently among my students. I guess it is more of an "attitude" issue for me, one not conducive to my passion. Am I way off base?


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## bandd (Jan 6, 2009)

Agree it has bad tone. I am a passionate hunter but it's not about the "killing"...it's about everything else (challenge, outdoors, dog work, etc. etc.)


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## Shelby (Jul 20, 2009)

No I dont think you are. Bird hunting for me is not about the number of birds. Its about the time spent out in the field with my boys, and my dog........I have friends like that they must limit out every time or the time spent was a wast


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## quanah labs (May 20, 2011)

7pntail said:


> Does that statement bother anyone else? Met a guy today at the propeller repair shop. He had a duck band in his ear as an earring clevis. Pretty cool. Asked him if he was a duck hunter, and those were the first words out of his mouth.
> 
> We talked ducks , and he appeared to be a good guy, but I couldn't get over the initial statement. Bothered me. He was not young. Though, I hear this quite frequently among my students. I guess it is more of an "attitude" issue for me, one not conducive to my passion. Am I way off base?


I HATE that saying! It comes across so disrespectful to an amazing animal that I would bet 99% of the people that persue them woukd all agree that it is in bad taste. The problem with the saying is that while it comes off as repulsive it rhymes and is catchy and it spurs the anti hunters into believing that ALL hunters are in it for the thrill of the kill which puts our hobby, or lifestyle in jeopardy. I might be over exajurating this but i deffinetly cringe when ever I hear someone say that. 

Ps I really hope that I'm right in that 99% of hunters find " if it flies it dies" repulsive.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

there are many and varied attitudes encountered along any evolutionary journey. not everyone starts at the same place. not everyone ends up at the same place.

if you feel you are farther along the evolutionary journey towards "the enlightened sportsman" than the gentleman you met today, good for you. if you feel you are superior to him because he has not yet attained "enlightenment", bad for you. we are all common sportsmen on a journey, the road is long, the path is wide, our paths will always converge as our destinations near.

as i grow older and think of duck camps of the past, the dogs, the friends, the laughter, the food, the drink, the fire, the fine shotguns and the birds.......as i think of these things the bloodlust of my youth is always kindled and the old phrase comes to mind, "if it flys, it dies!" dang john, you may be walking backwards on this evolutionary path!!!!just kidding!


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

if its brown its down.


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## FlywayKennels (Aug 14, 2012)

roseberry said:


> there are many and varied attitudes encountered along any evolutionary journey. not everyone starts at the same place. not everyone ends up at the same place.
> 
> if you feel you are farther along the evolutionary journey towards "the enlightened sportsman" than the gentleman you met today, good for you. if you feel you are superior to him because he has not yet attained "enlightenment", bad for you. we are all common sportsmen on a journey, the road is long, the path is wide, our paths will always converge as our destinations near.
> 
> as i grow older and think of duck camps of the past, the dogs, the friends, the laughter, the food, the drink, the fire, the fine shotguns and the birds.......as i think of these things the bloodlust of my youth is always kindled and the old phrase comes to mind, "if it flys, it dies!" dang john, you may be walking backwards on this evolutionary path!!!!just kidding!


I couldn't agree more with those first two paragraph's, John. Well said.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Did his pickup have a chrome set of testicles hanging from the trailer hitch?! 
That phrase does nothing for me either-..


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

There are several screen names that leave a lot to be desired.


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## Dwestall (Aug 30, 2011)

roseberry said:


> there are many and varied attitudes encountered along any evolutionary journey. not everyone starts at the same place. not everyone ends up at the same place.
> 
> if you feel you are farther along the evolutionary journey towards "the enlightened sportsman" than the gentleman you met today, good for you. if you feel you are superior to him because he has not yet attained "enlightenment", bad for you. we are all common sportsmen on a journey, the road is long, the path is wide, our paths will always converge as our destinations near.
> 
> as i grow older and think of duck camps of the past, the dogs, the friends, the laughter, the food, the drink, the fire, the fine shotguns and the birds.......as i think of these things the bloodlust of my youth is always kindled and the old phrase comes to mind, "if it flys, it dies!" dang john, you may be walking backwards on this evolutionary path!!!!just kidding!


Well said /thread


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Always thought it would be a good registered name for a dog

Wack 'Em N Stack 'Em regards,


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## winger (Sep 22, 2010)

it's to be expected. look at the commercialization of waterfowling. you got the convicted felon, the belding guy who thinks he's a gangster, everyone wearing black hoodies, stickered up with little catchy phrazes related to sex or death on their vehicles and clothing. it's more of an perceived attitude than a way of life anymore. when i am lucky enough to sit in a duck blind with my dad, grandfather and their friends (which are my most cherished hunts), i can look down the line in the blind, i don't see a single derogatory phrase on anything, no one looks like they are invading some 3rd world country with war paint, no fancy fandangled shotgun barrel stickers or duck band jewelry that is not attached to a lanyard. what i can see is over a combined 100 years of loving waterfowling and running dogs with enough combined knowledge on both to shock most "professional" hunters out of the water. i'll be the first to admit dog training has kind of left them in the shadows as it's moved into the light but they have their ways with the hounds as well.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

"If it flies, it dies" is a phrase that I have always taken to be sort of a joke. What your buddy says when he accidentally shoots a hen or justification for why, even though you have not seen a real duck in hours (or days) why you still don't lower yourself to shooting all those coots on the water right in front of you. I worry more about actions than what someone says in jest.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Seems like an overkill until I see the guy saying it shooting at live birds. Then it usually turns out to be a sick joke cause they usually can't hit crap because they don't have enough experience to judge distance, call, set decoys or have never really taken the time to learn all the intricacies of waterfowling in spite of all the commercialism.


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## bdogbud (Feb 21, 2012)

"If it flies it dies, and if it sits it dies too"

phil Robertson


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I have herd this saying sense I was " knee high to a grasshopper" also this this one "Sticks and stone will brake my bones, but words will never hurt me" I think there is to much worrying about what people say and not enough about what people do. just one opinion.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

bdogbud said:


> "If it flies it dies, and if it sits it dies too"
> 
> phil Robertson


good policy...


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## Didley (Jul 6, 2012)

It's just an expression. Not meant to be taken literally. 

Saying you don't agree with the expression makes little difference when you're out there killing things that fly also.


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## archer66 (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't use phrases like that but they don't bother me....I'm just not into all the catch phrases and commercialization these days. But To me it just means " I love to hunt birds...birds of all kinds" The phrase alone isn't evil or derrogatory all by itself .....it's all about the attitude of the person and how others perceive them. You said he seemed like a nice guy and for all you know he isn't a poacher or an indesciminant killer or any of that stuff. 

I guess what I'm saying is there can be two poles on stuff like this....one pole being the guys who get all ate up with the catch phrases and the commercialization and the hype and the fancy smancy gear while the second pole being the more traditional low key types who find that stuff offensive. I'd be willing to bet that most folks are somewhere in the middle.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

It's just a saying man..........
When I hear it I look at the source.
By the way it's..
"If it's brown knock it down".
Trying to help?
Sue


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Does that statement bother anyone else?


Yes, it's very disrespectful of the game.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

Its part of the overall culture that has been prodced by todays prostaffers, product pimps and HERO video makers......Pile shots, bling, catch phrases, barrel stickers, black hoodies, truck stickers, team names, trailer stickers & keeping "score"........ Its more about ego then respect.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

some of yalls generalizations sound like a lot of y'all dont kill many ducks and have a lot of pent up frustration towards the ones that do.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

its the difference between a duck shooter and a duck hunter....a shooter will look to take the first six/seven(depends on which state) birds to fill a limit....the hunter will look to take all drakes and will pass on ducks that are poor table fare like spoonbills

a shooter wants the biggest cannon to reach out and take a bird that he cant identify, a hunter wants to fold a bird that is cupped over the dekes with its feet down and possibly exposing a band, knowing that he outsmarted that bird by getting them via calling and set up...


I would rather not go with a shooter...and real hunters are a rare find, but usually turn into lifelong hunting partners


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Not what hunting is to me, I too, would find that statement hard to take, "enlightened" or not.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

BlaineT said:


> some of yalls generalizations sound like a lot of y'all dont kill many ducks *and have a lot of pent up frustration towards the ones that do*.


Perhaps we're just tired of the ones who THINK they do


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## Steve Hamel (Mar 1, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> its the difference between a duck shooter and a duck hunter....a shooter will look to take the first six/seven(depends on which state) birds to fill a limit....the hunter will look to take all drakes
> 
> 
> Alot of generalizations in this thread. Some people like to look at sunrises, some care more about pulling the trigger. Some like both. Doesn't make them more or less of a hunter . I'm in the field alot from Sept - Feb and we kill our share of birds. I dont advertise it, I don't walk around flaunting it, and I don't have to wear black hoodies . Some people do.
> ...


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

David Lo Buono said:


> Perhaps we're just tired of the ones who THINK they do


keep your head up...it'll get better for you.


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## Ryan M (Feb 6, 2010)

I think many people in this sport are so smug, self righteous. Many "new school" duck hunters do good deeds and help this sport. Just like anything you have good and your bad. I know a group of black hoody wearing, sticker barreling, video making blue collar guys that their sole mission is to take out kids and veterans. As a matter of fact I'm one of them. (minus the sticker barrels for me, I hate those too) Last year we got 5 kids their first birds ever, and took out 10 veterans. We take care of the farmers property, pick up our garbage, are active members of ducks unlimited and send feather and swab samples into the FWS. So please dont judge. Just go out and do your own thing and have fun. As long as people are playing by the game laws, do what you like.


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## Gunner's Dad (Jul 18, 2012)

A phrase is just a phrase. Personally i like this phrase. It means that hunt anything with wings, from ducks to pheasants, geese to dove. It really does come down to how does the person hunt, not what they phrases they like. I can't stand ski blasting or shooting with out being able to identify what duck you shoot. I have fun just watching the world wake up, and the friendship i have with my hunting partners (dog included). However i really like filling my limit, and on a slow day a hen will eat just like a drake. 

I will say this, this season we are adding two new partners to our hunting squad. One is a friend who has never duck hunted in his life, the other, my dog. i have had more fun watching the dog work and letting my friend shot my gun than i ever thought possible. My buggy has taught me two things so far. One is how i take for grantite knowing how to do simple things, like blow a call and identify ducks. The second, the pure joy of knocking down a duck and the, almost, childlike excitement of watching ducks circle. 

I am trying to teach my friend proper sportsmanship, and give him knowledge. Yet he will make the natural progression just as i did, just as everyone does. In his own time.


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## Cthomas (Sep 21, 2003)

Just don't "ground pound".
Chris


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

I don't see any disrespect in the saying, that's all it is a saying. As mentioned also "if its brown its down", just a saying that is all, in no way would I ever try to read anything else into the statement.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

winger said:


> it's to be expected. look at the commercialization of waterfowling. you got the convicted felon, the belding guy who thinks he's a gangster, everyone wearing black hoodies, stickered up with little catchy phrazes related to sex or death on their vehicles and clothing. it's more of an perceived attitude than a way of life anymore. when i am lucky enough to sit in a duck blind with my dad, grandfather and their friends (which are my most cherished hunts), i can look down the line in the blind, i don't see a single derogatory phrase on anything, no one looks like they are invading some 3rd world country with war paint, no fancy fandangled shotgun barrel stickers or duck band jewelry that is not attached to a lanyard. what i can see is over a combined 100 years of loving waterfowling and running dogs with enough combined knowledge on both to shock most "professional" hunters out of the water. i'll be the first to admit dog training has kind of left them in the shadows as it's moved into the light but they have their ways with the hounds as well.



Winger, anytime you are in Cali, you are welcome to my blind, boat, or rice field. Would love to share a hunt. That is the way I was brought up too. My dad would of smacked me upside the head if I would have said that. Can hear him now---NEVER shoot what you don't intend to eat, and many times we caught a few trout for dinner rather than ten. (I am not implying that people that use this statement don't go by the rules--but--- I do suspect it is possible they may cripple more birds) Yes, it is just a statement, a possible attitude, but not one that is good for the hunting fraternity. 

The ethic, in my case was taught young. I didn't need "natural progression" though I do understand it. I, like anyone, like to shoot birds, but the connotation of *shoot at everything that fly's* has a negative tone. I would bet the statement transcends to the field (could be wrong) and many are *not* looking for feet down birds. I have done some pass shooting too and have crippled some birds. Not my thing anymore( that is a progression).

Not casting stones, and not holy-er than though, but in my state we need to watch our words ( hate to use this word) and be* sensitive *
to the vast majority that do not hunt, and have no clue what it is all about.

Looking forward to the opener and working the ultimate conservationist---a trained retriever.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> keep your head up...it'll get better for you.


you and your little dog wouldnt make one day here in january.......


and trust me you're barking up the tree lil buckaroo.......Now you go dove hunting and make sure you put a vest on the ferret in your avatar if it goes below 60;-)


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## Steven Lacroix (Mar 20, 2012)

Too many people today trying to get others to think exactly like they do. If you don't like the saying fine don't use it but don't begrudge anyone that does.....Your way is not the best way or the only way, just the way you do it at the current time. Disrespectful to game??? How is saying a saying disrespectful to game. I know many people who use slang like this who are committed outdoors men who care deeply about the animal they pursue......Lets remember that we all dont have to think the same and if we did the world would be a lot worse off


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

David Lo Buono said:


> you and your little dog wouldnt make one day here in january.......
> 
> 
> and trust me you're barking up the tree lil buckaroo.......Now you go dove hunting and make sure you put a vest on the ferret in your avatar if it goes below 60;-)


awww...how creative. A little dog joke. is that an invite to come up and hunt  

please son, you don't know me, any of my dogs, nor their tolerance to any weather. lol... no one (well at least I) was talking to you until you quoted my post. but go ahead, continue to be judgmental of folk and worry about a saying someone has about hunting. I guess you're one that is just "happy" to enjoy another sunrise and hang out with good friends? well, we like that to, but its about killing ducks/geese for us. What in the heck does that have to do with respecting a duck?? unless you're just taking pictures of them, the end result is the same. dead animals.


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## arklahunter (Oct 7, 2011)

I wonder if the guy who made the comment thought it would inspire 4 pages of posts on RTF. I think it's best to live life not being easily offended...


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> is that an invite to come up and hunt


sure same as everyone else 200 bucks per guy.....we still have a few dates available........we don't provide heaters for the dogs though....Oh and we shoot canvasbacks when it snows not cute lil woodies (thanks for the pm though)


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Ur the best. Thanks for the offer. 
Oh yea we killed a good many cans last year too we just have to travel west more often as northeast georgia tends to be the worse waterfowling region known to man. No snow with the cans though so i guess its not as good.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

David Lo Buono said:


> ......we don't provide heaters for the dogs though....Oh and we shoot canvasbacks when it snows not cute lil woodies


OK. just gotta ask. how often do it snow way down south in tropical Joisey????
Think your hardcore? I can put you on a rocky ledge on Champlain. I have decoyed in woodies and teal (green wing) in snow squalls more than once. And what the heck is a dog heater? Must be a lab thing
I love it when deer season starts up here. The first weekend only guys are on the couch and the "normal" guys are after white tail deer 'cause it is to cold for um or the dogs they have to get in the water. I have the ducks and geese to myself.
as for the saying that started this...... dont much care for it but there are lots of sayings I dont care for, oh well.
Guess we can live and let live, or, Live and let die!


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

roseberry said:


> there are many and varied attitudes encountered along any evolutionary journey. not everyone starts at the same place. not everyone ends up at the same place.
> 
> if you feel you are farther along the evolutionary journey towards "the enlightened sportsman" than the gentleman you met today, good for you. if you feel you are superior to him because he has not yet attained "enlightenment", bad for you. we are all common sportsmen on a journey, the road is long, the path is wide, our paths will always converge as our destinations near.
> 
> as i grow older and think of duck camps of the past, the dogs, the friends, the laughter, the food, the drink, the fire, the fine shotguns and the birds.......as i think of these things the bloodlust of my youth is always kindled and the old phrase comes to mind, "if it flys, it dies!" dang john, you may be walking backwards on this evolutionary path!!!!just kidding!


Well said, Grasshopper;-)

I've always said that it's too bad we can't shoot and release like fishermen catch and release.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

BlaineT said:


> ..... I guess you're one that is just "happy" to enjoy another sunrise and hang out with good friends? well, we like that to, but its about killing ducks/geese for us. What in the heck does that have to do with respecting a duck?? .


Um, I do not think that is the kinda learnin' your gonna get on an internets forum about dog training. It's kind of a figger it out on your own, type of thing. I will say, a couple of my favorite duck hunting stories. Are from days no birds were shot. Not for lack of trying.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Franco said:


> Well said, Grasshopper;-)
> 
> I've always said that it's too bad we can't shoot and release like fishermen catch and release.


Yes very well said!
BTW one Yout day hunt, the Yout shot a duck, I scent my dog. He retrieved the duck. I handed to the the youts Grandfather. As Yout and Grandfather were handeling Youts first duck. It got loose and flew away. Only catch and release duck I have seen. Had I been allowed to shoot...... I think I still wudda let it fly away! But I'm evil that way.;-)


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> OK. just gotta ask. how often do it snow way down south in tropical Joisey????
> Think your hardcore? I can put you on a rocky ledge on Champlain. I have decoyed in woodies and teal (green wing) in snow squalls more than once. And what the heck is a dog heater? Must be a lab thing
> I love it when deer season starts up here. The first weekend only guys are on the couch and the "normal" guys are after white tail deer 'cause it is to cold for um or the dogs they have to get in the water. I have the ducks and geese to myself.
> as for the saying that started this...... dont much care for it but there are lots of sayings I dont care for, oh well.
> Guess we can live and let live, or, Live and let die!


You guys in the South are just to funny, you get a little ice around the edges of those little lakes and you think you live in the tundra.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

mngundog said:


> You guys in the South are just to funny


yes, you all are!
VT north of SW Minn regards
or was that directed at David?


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

roseberry said:


> there are many and varied attitudes encountered along any evolutionary journey. not everyone starts at the same place. not everyone ends up at the same place.
> 
> if you feel you are farther along the evolutionary journey towards "the enlightened sportsman" than the gentleman you met today, good for you. if you feel you are superior to him because he has not yet attained "enlightenment", bad for you. we are all common sportsmen on a journey, the road is long, the path is wide, our paths will always converge as our destinations near.
> 
> as i grow older and think of duck camps of the past, the dogs, the friends, the laughter, the food, the drink, the fire, the fine shotguns and the birds.......as i think of these things the bloodlust of my youth is always kindled and the old phrase comes to mind, "if it flys, it dies!" dang john, you may be walking backwards on this evolutionary path!!!!just kidding!


Whereas at first read, this position seems very open and mature, on closer examination it reeks of moral relativism. I believe that there actually are positions and behaviors that are better than others. The OP clearly believes so also. I cringe when I hear things like "if it flies it dies", or "whack'em and stack'em". I hate seeing high fives when an animal is killed. No one who said "booyah!!!" after shooting an animal would ever hunt with me again. I do understand that many people will mature as they age, or as they are exposed to more mature influences, but if after a reasoned discussion about the ethics of being in the field and how the public at large could (and often does) view our activities, the offenders continue the objectionable practices, then I am perfectly comfortable feeling superior to them.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Should have added that Ken's perspective seems about right to me.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

HPL said:


> Whereas at first read, this position seems very open and mature, on closer examination it reeks of moral relativism. I believe that there actually are positions and behaviors that are better than others. The OP clearly believes so also. I cringe when I hear things like "if it flies it dies", or "whack'em and stack'em". I hate seeing high fives when an animal is killed. No one who said "booyah!!!" after shooting an animal would ever hunt with me again. I do understand that many people will mature as they age, or as they are exposed to more mature influences, but if after a reasoned discussion about the ethics of being in the field and how the public at large could (and often does) view our activities, the offender continues the objectionable practices, then I am perfectly comfortable feeling superior to them.


I kinda like this quote, where a mans action detail what I think not some old saying in a huntin blind.Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state. 
(John Dewey


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

This is just silly ,its a saying ,like thousands of other sayings out there. I agree that time and age sooth mans aggressive need to kill and consume,but it is still a primal instinct and verbally reflected in different ways . Focus your attention on the ones that dont want any of us to have guns or kill the pour wittle aminals.

By the way if this saying bothers you then how do you justify,raising/buying and then killing ducks for the soul purpose of training tools ?

Tag em and bag em !


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

HPL said:


> Whereas at first read, this position seems very open and mature, on closer examination it reeks of moral relativism. I believe that there actually are positions and behaviors that are better than others. The OP clearly believes so also. I cringe when I hear things like "if it flies it dies", or "whack'em and stack'em". I hate seeing high fives when an animal is killed. No one who said "booyah!!!" after shooting an animal would ever hunt with me again. I do understand that many people will mature as they age, or as they are exposed to more mature influences, but if after a reasoned discussion about the ethics of being in the field and how the public at large could (and often does) view our activities, the offenders continue the objectionable practices, then I am perfectly comfortable feeling superior to them.



This pretty well sums it up.

The problem with statements like "if it flies it dies" and "whack em and stack em" even when made in jest, is that it furthers the mindset among people who are not yet "evolved" enough to realize that there is so very much more to this than killing and numbers.

The problem with this kind of mindset is that it devalues and denegrates something that all who have posted on this thread seem to value greatly.

The problem with devaluing and denegrating something is that eventually it becomes valueless and not worth saving.


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

There are some that drink the kool aid on both sides of the fence, some good and some not so good. Ive seen my fair share. Truely in the end IMO its about the journey. Those that work hard to be successful and carry themselves to a higher standard are the ones that succede in life overall. Most of it is bunk anyways so I dont mind it but usually dont pay attention to it either


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> OK. just gotta ask. how often do it snow way down south in tropical Joisey


Not as much as you.....but unlike vermont we actually have ducks



> Think your hardcore? I can put you on a rocky ledge on Champlain.


oh my! a rocky ledge on a lake...i'm skeerd....

How about a rocky ledge, in january staring out @ the open ocean with 20mph cross wind and a 10ft tide swing????


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

> ....but unlike vermont we actually have ducks....


unlike Joisey, we just don't tell anybody about ours ;-)
NO DUCKS in VT. None, keep moving, nothing to see here.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

HPL said:


> then I am perfectly comfortable feeling superior to them.


in the words of john wayne(or the screenwriters of true grit if you prefer), "if i ever meet one of you texans that aint............."

when i come out and post some "new age" mumbo jumbo i have two purposes in mind:

1. to say something a couple of you will find humerous. i am sure i failed in that regard.

let me preface 2. by stating my entire education came at state schools. my state usually ranks 49th nationally when its students are tested academically. as such, i can't say that i know for sure what the term "moral relativism" means. but those of you more well read than i might verify that many waterfowlers, conservationists and legendary sportswriters of the past looked "down their nose" at the use of items such as decoys to "trick or fool" waterfowl. needing to "trick" a bird was considered unsportsmanlike. we use these tools today with reverence and hold in contempt those who we feel have not aquired adequate skills in their use. 

today we hate "skybusting". back in the day "accomplished sporting wingshooters" found them coming into the field through a cut in the treeline and rained them out with "ol' bo whoop", or some such shizzle as that. today we don't like stickers on shotgun barrels, at the turn of the century conservationists didn't like pricetags on canvasbacks in east coast diners. today we wouldn't consider hunting from a sinkbox but a low profile layout boat is a.o.k. we do not even want to get into discussions on the ethics of "spinning wing decoys".

the original post here was made by a guy from california named john who is clearly a fine and ethical sportsman. his feelings are clear about the use of language, "if it flies, it dies." i do not object to john's feelings on the language and if i never heard that term again, my life would be fine too. my point of view is, "things always are changing". i am not saying "things change". i am saying that, "things always are changing" as we progress or regress as the case may be. in terms of sporting activities, views of right and wrong of today may or may not stand the test of time. 

2. to point out that regardless of how ethical a conservationist you think you are.....there is always someone looking "down their nose" at you. for example, john recently bought a "mud motor" to hunt with. mud motors to some folks go right along with beanie caps, barrel stickers and face paint. i am personally ok with mudmotors but hypothetically, what if there may be pious rtf members out there thinking but not posting, "i can't believe a true sportsman would run his boat through and smash down the historic tules in california's vital central valley. how could a sportsman chop a surface prop through the protective matting of a fragile wetlands ecosystem? why would a true sporting man not be content to motor up in the open water provided him by the Good Lord to set up at the edge of this vast habitat? he could then enjoy what birds come his way and rejoice in seeing the millions of waterfowl sail overhead and land safely, protected by this impenatrable miracle!"

we are duck hunters, we are on the same team, we better have each other's back because we will never, never, ever , never ever(did i say never?) placate the extremists environmental terrorist enemies of our sport just because we have an "attitude of respect" towards the birds we kill. selling another ten million duck stamps to young hunters nationwide however will! i like kids with beanie caps, mud motors and barrel stickers.......now that i am the old guy they come get me and take me hunting. i told one last year, "straighten that cap bill, pull your damn waders up and put your belt on, your freakin' boxer shorts are showing, you thug!"


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

roseberry said:


> ....... many waterfowlers, conservationists and legendary sportswriters of the past looked "down their nose" at the use of items such as decoys to "trick or fool" waterfowl. needing to "trick" a bird was considered unsportsmanlike. we use these tools today with reverence and hold in contempt those who we feel have not aquired adequate skills in their use.
> 
> today we hate "skybusting". back in the day "accomplished sporting wingshooters" found them coming into the field through a cut in the treeline and rained them out.......


This needs to be expanded upon. It is not that “decoys” were looked down upon. It is that the people that used them as an entire people, were looked down upon. 

You had on one hand.
The European conquers, coming from a history of hunting with guns. Of using peasants to drive through the thickets and push wild life to them to shoot. Of using peasants to carry gear and retrieve downed game. As they stood in proper attire, high and dry and “civilized” 

And on the other hand.
The native peoples of the North East, that I am familiar with. Coming from a history of the mind set that being able to mimic an animal was gosh darn powerful magic.
Being able to know exactly were the animal would be, at what time of year and day. Being able to perfectly reproduce the call of the animal. Being able to at the same time completely conceal ones self and convince the animal you are they, was the pinnacle of ones hunting ability.

In the local town museum of Charlotte, VT (the town of my yout) there is hundreds of years old Canada Goose decoys, made of skinned geese. And the oldest goose flutes I have ever seen. Made of hollow bone and reed. Made by the Iroquois who lived in the Champlain Valley before Samuel D. Champlain “discovered” and named it.

The European gentry would never even consider crawling through the mud with a feathered goose skin upon their head to get into bow or cast net range of a bird.
That was the activity of savages. Savages that were considered to be lower than the peasants they were accustomed to forcing through the mud and briars of their old continent.


I see it still to this day, in many ways. How many of you all will spend hours and hours shooting your shot gun? And yet will never go out afore season with all your gear and decoys and calls and practice your scouting and setups and real world calling. How many of you have ever run your full goose spread, for fun? Just to practice getting birds to land on you?


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> This needs to be expanded upon. It is not that “decoys” were looked down upon. It is that the people that used them as an entire people, were looked down upon.
> 
> You had on one hand.
> The European conquers, coming from a history of hunting with guns. Of using peasants to drive through the thickets and push wild life to them to shoot. Of using peasants to carry gear and retrieve downed game. As they stood in proper attire, high and dry and “civilized”
> ...



I can see our friend from across the pond (Eug.) sounding in on this soon.


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## east tx hoghunt (Jul 20, 2011)

"If it flys and is legal with local game laws it dies" just doesn't have the same ring to it!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Rnd said:


> I can see our friend from across the pond (Eug.) sounding in on this soon.


it would be peasant to hear his thoughts on this topic


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

FinnLandR said:


> Food for thought, for those that think: I just sat through three days of Hunter Education class with my oldest. One thing that was touched on was that roughly 10% of Americans hunt, roughly 10% are adamantly anti-hunting. That leaves 80% on the fence. (I'm not going to argue the numbers....)
> 
> How do you think they view phrases like "If it's brown, it's down" or "If it flies, it dies"?
> 
> ...


That alone, is a very good reason all by itself (enlightened self interest).


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

FinnLandR said:


> Food for thought, for those that think: I just sat through three days of Hunter Education class with my oldest. One thing that was touched on was that roughly 10% of Americans hunt, roughly 10% are adamantly anti-hunting. That leaves 80% on the fence. (I'm not going to argue the numbers....)
> 
> How do you think they view phrases like "If it's brown, it's down" or "If it flies, it dies"?
> 
> ...


This sound like what Obama tried in the middle east? look what it got him.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

This whole freedom of speech thing is crazy, I mean there is no way you should be able to say something however you want.
Whats next? Every law abiding citizen should have the right to bear arms? Whats this country coming to 

you do your thing and I'll do mine.
And when I say Ill do mine I mean that if I choose to only shoot greenheads one day ,then put the hammer down on anything that's flies the next as long as I am within the legal limits then so be it.
If I choose to only trophy hunt for monster whitetail in the morning and let several does pass , but that evening it might be - if its brown its down, again as long as I am within the legal limits, people should just mind their own damned business.
if you don't like the way someone says something then let it role off your back and carry on.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

roseberry said:


> in the words of john wayne(or the screenwriters of true grit if you prefer), "if i ever meet one of you texans that aint............."
> 
> when i come out and post some "new age" mumbo jumbo i have two purposes in mind:
> 
> ...



Nicely said. Gotta quote Ben Franklin here while he was talking to Jefferson and Hancock PRIOR TO SIGNING THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE: *" IF WE DON'T HANG TOGETHER, WE WILL MOST CERTAINLY HANG SEPARATELY" 
*

Will go easy on the habitat with the mud motor I promise:razz:






Okay--did the quote from memory. Here is the exact quote: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately" 



Bonus points: Why did Ben say this?


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

roseberry said:


> in the words of john wayne(or the screenwriters of true grit if you prefer), "if i ever meet one of you texans that aint............."
> 
> 
> 2. to point out that regardless of how ethical a conservationist you think you are.....there is always someone looking "down their nose" at you. for example, john recently bought a "mud motor" to hunt with. mud motors to some folks go right along with beanie caps, barrel stickers and face paint. i am personally ok with mudmotors but hypothetically, what if there may be pious rtf members out there thinking but not posting,* "i can't believe a true sportsman would run his boat through and smash down the historic tules in california's vital central valley. how could a sportsman chop a surface prop through the protective matting of a fragile wetlands ecosystem? why would a true sporting man not be content to motor up in the open water provided him by the Good Lord to set up at the edge of this vast habitat? he could then enjoy what birds come his way and rejoice in seeing the millions of waterfowl sail overhead and land safely, protected by this impenatrable miracle!"
> ...



Now that you have enlightened us at to what those mud motors do (I've never seen one myself) perhaps that IS worthy of discussion.

As to the point of placating the extremists, that's NOT who worries me. It is the 60 or 80% of folks out there who really don't have an opinion about hunters, but could easily form a negative one if exposed to the type of boorish behavior often exhibited in the media and at the local diner at breakfast, that concern me.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

HPL said:


> Now that you have enlightened us at to what those mud motors do (I've never seen one myself) perhaps that IS worthy of discussion.
> .


i have no idea what mud motors do either, other than take me where i am too old and too fat to get to anymore......but i did fabricate quite an elitist, landed aristocratic, snooty, california conservationist reaction to using a mud motor.....now didn't i? like i said all the young guys who take me hunting these days got one! lol


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Shawn White said:


> This whole freedom of speech thing is crazy, I mean there is no way you should be able to say something however you want.
> Whats next? Every law abiding citizen should have the right to bear arms? Whats this country coming to
> 
> you do your thing and I'll do mine.
> ...


I don't think anybody here has indicated that folks should be restricted from using terms like the ones we have been discussing, just that it would probably reflect better on the hunting fraternity if they went the way of certain other archaic terms. 

As far as "you do your thing and I'll do mine", I believe that is another illustration of moral relativism in action. 

Since you are a proponent of free speech, you should fully understand and appreciate our urge to rebuke folks who, through word or deed, reflect poorly on our sport.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

roseberry said:


> i have no idea what mud motors do either, other than take me where i am too old and too fat to get to anymore......but i did fabricate quite an elitist, landed aristocratic, snooty, california conservationist reaction to using a mud motor.....now didn't i? like i said all the young guys who take me hunting these days got one! lol


Why the apparent surge in these devices? Are they cheaper, safer, simpler than air boats (which seem to leave a pretty light imprint to me)?


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## kremerd (May 23, 2007)

Just something said amongst friends, when my friends and I say it we are just having fun. Don't be so upity, I would like know how many on this forum even hunt and I really would like to know of those on this forum how many ever volunteer on a Ducks Unlimited committee or attend the events run by volunteers to raise money for wildlife habitat.


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Wildlife biologist by training. Been hunting since about 7 yrs old (that makes 50yrs now). Not really a duck hunter (have always believed that one really should eat what one kills and just don't like the taste of duck). Board member of South Texas Quail Coalition (and was with QU until we broke off). Just finished our annual banquet (raised about $150,000.00 for scholarships, research, and habitat improvement). Satisfied?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

kremerd said:


> ..... how many on this forum even hunt and I really would like to know of those on this forum how many ever volunteer on a Ducks Unlimited committee or attend the events run by volunteers to raise money for wildlife habitat.


took hunters saftey the first time when I was 8. Gone a few more since, for fun. I do not go hunting for crow or muskrat or bow hunt. Fat guys should not climb trees. Everything else in season, in Vermont, I hunt for. I don't drop any cash on that big money lobby group. Never liked that hole puppy auction thing they do. I go to my local WMA with chainsaw and loppers and ask to be put to work. As I have Mondays off I can give a few mondays a year. Help keep the WMA's spiffy for the one day a year hunter folk.... Satisfied?


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> took hunters saftey the first time when I was 8. Gone a few more since, for fun. I do not go hunting for crow or muskrat or bow hunt. Fat guys should not climb trees. Everything else in season, in Vermont, I hunt for. I don't drop any cash on that big money lobby group. Never liked that hole puppy auction thing they do. I go to my local WMA with chainsaw and loppers and ask to be put to work. As I have Mondays off I can give a few mondays a year. Help keep the WMA's spiffy for the one day a year hunter folk.... Satisfied?


I certainly am. Sounds like you sort of have the best approach. My two nearest WMA are approx 130 and 140 miles away (ironically only about 12 miles from each other).


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

kremerd said:


> Just something said amongst friends, when my friends and I say it we are just having fun. Don't be so upity, I would like know how many on this forum even hunt and I really would like to know of those on this forum how many ever volunteer on a Ducks Unlimited committee or attend the events run by volunteers to raise money for wildlife habitat.


 Hum--- will try my best best to not be sarcastic. A typical year form me: Youth dog training demos (4H) and High School, clean up day public refuge, volunteer committee CWA. Donated one hunt in the famous Butte Sink, and a guided salmon trip with accommodations at my cabin on the klamath river ( I slept in a trailer) The most fun I have ever had though, was slogging through mud in The CA grasslands banding ducks for a week in 100 degree temps. Will be doing mentor hunts this year for women--new thing for me. 

I am a DU supporter, but CWA is where most of my money and time goes.


Not gonna say satisfied.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

kremerd said:


> Just something said amongst friends, when my friends and I say it we are just having fun. Don't be so upity, I would like know how many on this forum even hunt and I really would like to know of those on this forum how many ever volunteer on a Ducks Unlimited committee or attend the events run by volunteers to raise money for wildlife habitat.


I don't spend much time away from the kennel these days. I am the only one here, but I did get in three days of duck hunting a goose hunt and One day of wild pheasant hunting up in colusa.I went to 4 field trials and ran my pup in one stake. I did all the paper work with AKC and helped put on three hunt test, put on one judging seminar, supported three Spaniel clubs. I did not do no committee work for DU, but I did spend time with club members to try and keep our wildlife areas open for events and dog training.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Seriously, arguing on the Internet over a slang phrase that is not true doesn't make much sense. Anyone that has ever done much duck hunting knows "all that fly do not die".


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Don't mean to sound overly opinionated, but the "flies it dies" statement doesn't do much for me...In fact I think it's ridiculous..(well,..ok-->_stupid)_

If you're gonna' walk around making the bold statement then your shooting skills had best back it up.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> Seriously, arguing on the Internet over a slang phrase that is not true doesn't make much sense. Anyone that has ever done much duck hunting knows "all that fly do not die".


Right Kwicklabs!..
And -

"If ya' miss, it _flies_,..and now you're tellin' _lies_"


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I've just finished reading most every post in this thread and during my reading a phrase I've said quite a few times comes to mind. People ask me what I like to hunt. Often my answer is, "If it has fur or feathers I will hunt it." The next question is usually, "Do you eat it?" This is where I explain the answer to the first question and answer the 2nd one at the same time. I tell them that even though I love to hunt, it's more about being out in the woods or on the water with family, friends and my dog. Early morning sunrises with frost on the ground, ice on the water or sunsets with all or the multicolored clouds and leaves falling to the ground. The killing part of hunting is secondary to me. So if I am going to pull the trigger then I have definite plans to prepare the game for the table. 

So, I have my own saying that may put some people off a bit. It's just an expression. I think you have to consider the source.


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## Andrew Fairchild (May 19, 2011)

I'll just speak for my generation, but if you ask me if I deer hunt I might say if its brown its down but that dont mean i go around killing 2 and half year old deer. I've made the mistake from time to time in judging age when I take a deer, but for the most part I don't shoot immature deer. I might say if its brown its down... Or if it flies it dies...or my favorite "Hopefully we'll make it rain tomorrow." It doesn't mean if we go out and shoot 2 ducks between 3 people it was a bad day. For me its all about putting the time in and learning how to be a better hunter so you have fewer and fewer bluebird days. I just think theirs geographical differences, childhood up bringings, and age differences that diversify America.

On the other side of the spectrum atleast where I grow up, there are those people who will shoot a fork n horn cause its a deer, or sky bust ducks on slow days instead of trying to get them to work. Theres not a lot of sporting in that. I don't think your ganna change those people too much. Their will always be people like that out there. Thats why its our responsibility to set as many good examples as we can, and give as many possitive hunting experiences as we can, so WE can be what the public sees when they think of outdoor sports all together!


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

afairchild0103 said:


> its our responsibility to set as many good examples as we can, and give as many possitive hunting experiences as we can, so WE can be what the public sees when they think of outdoor sports all together!


That is hitting the nail directly on the head.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm 72 and been down "this road" several times. Society continually changes which leaves many in a quandry on how to adjust. Being politically correct can be a "bother" when is impacts your standards......and it will because it is never static. 

I remember a few years ago after sending in my very first goose band data and soon receiving a "nice little report" about the goose I "harvested". It seems to set a good example I'm supposed to use that term (harvested) because many find the alternative "offensive". Not only did I "harvest" that goose, but the very PC form provided the date and place that the "encounter" had taken place. Evidently I don't hunt anymore. It seems that I now must venture forth and "encounter". 

People with a lot of tact find a way to say the right thing depending on who is listening. Therefore, it would be wise of me not to extend this conversation. Which in a round-about-way suggests that bringing up a touchy subject on a public forum does nothing more than verify "things" to those bent on pressing their own, self-serving agenda. 

Friday, Saturday and Sunday......I "encountered" many ducks. Somehow that just doesn't adquately describe the actual "interactions".


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

One thing that I have not seen stated is how these guys got that opinion. Between the jackhole poachers that have been made cable TV heros and the advertisers of gear glamorize killing as many things as possible. I will say that hunters should try and stay away from bashing other types of legal hunting and quite frankly all outdoor sports. Its really peta, hsus, sierra club and the like against us. Spend some time being outraged against the loss of public land access or similar. Not some guy who has cable TV


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