# Who is the Rock Star? A question for Fred and everyone else as well.



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

In another thread,
Talking about why folk who disagree with him continue to view his videos Fred typed.



fredhassen said:


> Sooooooooo, I'm perplexed why you, and all the others would see Fred ll, or Fred lll, or Fred xx......but you will. Cause I'm your favorite. .


and this got me a thinking Fred. It was in the same thread that folk were chafing you about the logos on your hummer and stuff. Now I have both agreed and disagreed with you Fred. While you and I are both proud puppy owners hosting vids of our pups in action. And RTF without puppy video would be lost. For example I have viewed the video of the yellow lab and the girl “runnindawgz/Danielle multiple times now. 
Anyway, I digress. While we are the same this sentence worries me. Even if you say is was in jest, it is a window to the soul. It is an “I wanna be a rock star” think of the Nickleback song, type of statement.
So I wonder,
How the “Greats” thought about it. How was the mindset of what the masses here generally view as “The Rock Stars” of the dog training videos when they started. I wonder if the Carr’s, Lardy’s, Farmer/Aycock’s, Rorem’s, Cleveland’s, were walking to the running line and had a epiphany? Suddenly thinking they wanted fame and fortune through making a dog training video or program to sell to the masses.
Or
Did they walk to the running line thinking, I am going to do the best I know how to do with this dog right here in front of me. To make it the best it can be. And while we are at it lets record it so others can make their dog the best they can be.

Because like the old RTF early times quote stated- “It is just dogs picking up stuff, or not” I feel it is the dogs who are the rock stars.
What do you think?



.


----------



## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

Rock On, Ken!! Love it!


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Well said, Ken. 

And it's also good to remember that a well-bred and talented pup can still be successful at some level, in spite of who trains it...the question is "how good *could* it have been with different training"?

I think all this video debate is not unlike seeing a car accident....you just have to look. ;-)


----------



## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

Very well put Ken. I'll watch your vids anytime !


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> How the “Greats” thought about it. How was the mindset of what the masses here generally view as “The Rock Stars” of the dog training videos when they started. *I wonder if the Carr’s, Lardy’s, Farmer/Aycock’s, Rorem’s, Cleveland’s, were walking to the running line and had a epiphany?* Suddenly thinking they wanted fame and fortune through making a dog training video or program to sell to the masses.
> Or
> 
> What do you think?
> ...


I wont try and tell you what they were thinking (not sure who Cleveland is/was...only one I know is Roger and he makes a great wedge) But IMHO and from talking directly to those that spent time with him,Rex was a master motivator, some might even call it manipulator, but he knew what buttons to push and we're not talking Tri Tronics here..

Now for the others you mentioned, IMHO the video stuff is just icing on the cake,in reality they could probably give a flip about them..but they all walked to the line on more than one occasion and probably said to themselves " we can win this National"...the video stuff is a way to give back to the sport,but I dont think any of them are quitting their day jobs waiting for the royalty checks to arrive..

As for you Ken, I will watch your videos as long as its not one of watching syrup draining from a tree , I will catch that episode on the discovery channel..


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

My pups are ROCK STAR's!!! But don't tell em that, they'll get bigger heads!! 

I'll watch your Syrup video, but only for a few moments! 

Love that 2X4 video and the pup toilet thingy!!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I have one into Blues and the other is a "gangsta"


----------



## Tom Mouer (Aug 26, 2003)

I think that Fred H. is using this forum as a means of self promotion.
The videos are the "teasers" and Fred, of course, is the Rock Star,"
Reminds me of "pro wrestling" events.
Another parallel that come to mind.
When I worked as a lab tech, while attending college, one of the most prevalent statements that I remember, from a respected teacher, was this statement.
"An expert is someone from out of town, with a presentation and fresh set of slides."
Fred has videos.
And franchises for sale. 
This is after all, the 21st century.


----------



## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

R. Reddog said:


> Very well put Ken. I'll watch your vids anytime !



you may regret that statement.... ;-)


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Rock stars don't play cover tunes. They play their own stuff and do what feels right for them. 

"Your an original baby, like I've never seen before"

Regards,


----------



## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

It is interesting how video is changing the ways folks communicate. Not to long ago you needed a crew to hold the video camera and needed accessories for you while you ran or trained a dog now you can clip it on your belt or lid of your hat. Really all I have to do is point my phone push record, push another button and it is loading it to youtube. Who would have thought... 

I personally would like to see more training videos from everyone in the retriever community. Imagine if Lardy would have had a hand held video and we got to learn as he did. We get to see the final result after many years and many great dogs.


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> In another thread,
> Talking about why folk who disagree with him continue to view his videos Fred typed.
> 
> and this got me a thinking Fred. It was in the same thread that folk were chafing you about the logos on your hummer and stuff. Now I have both agreed and disagreed with you Fred. While you and I are both proud puppy owners hosting vids of our pups in action. And RTF without puppy video would be lost. For example I have viewed the video of the yellow lab and the girl “runnindawgz/Danielle multiple times now.
> ...


I agree that it is the dogs that are the rock stars, and that is why I make constant comments stating that the reviews should be about the dog, but obviously most here want to stay as far away from dog reviews and as close to 'personal' as possible. I vote for the dogs, and I vote that it should be the one reviewed. I know I'm way outnumbered, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Yes Ken, the logos on the Hummer and everything else pull them away from the dog, closer to keeping it personal.


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Tom Mouer said:


> I.
> "An expert is someone from out of town, with a presentation and fresh set of slides."
> Fred has videos.
> And franchises for sale.
> This is after all, the 21st century.


And trainers with National or World accomplishments in 4 different venues. I knew you wouldn't mention anything about the actual dogs that are being trained, cause as I said........It's about 'personal' to you.


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Kirkd said:


> It is interesting how video is changing the ways folks communicate. Not to long ago you needed a crew to hold the video camera and needed accessories for you while you ran or trained a dog now you can clip it on your belt or lid of your hat. Really all I have to do is point my phone push record, push another button and it is loading it to youtube. Who would have thought...
> 
> I personally would like to see more training videos from everyone in the retriever community. Imagine if Lardy would have had a hand held video and we got to learn as he did. We get to see the final result after many years and many great dogs.


Every hunt test I've been at there have been people doing video besides myself. Every sport I've seen is very familiar with video taping trials to see their mistakes, and I don't know of too many high level instructors that don't advocate it. I just typed in 'Field trial' on youtube, and stopped at page 6, and I have 22 videos per page. 

When I do one though, all the reasons become 'personal'. It's all very consistent. It will evolve more into your sport, because people will become more aware of the advantages, and they won't listen to "Joe Blow won 57 National Championships and he never video'd any thing, so that proves that it's worthless." Oh, O.K........then we will all just put our video cameras away then.


----------



## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Rock star, or rather selling a business.... I'll admit that I haven't had time to look at the videos nor do I care to, but I did find his url interesting. http://franchise.sitmeanssit.com/. Fred is selling a business plain and simple.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Mike Boufford said:


> Rock star, or rather selling a business.... I'll admit that I haven't had time to look at the videos nor do I care to, but I did find his url interesting. http://franchise.sitmeanssit.com/. Fred is selling a business plain and simple.


Yup and you sell dogs and ken sells syrup. Point?


----------



## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

OK- I am going against my own advice.........................


Fred H and Packleader - almost all your post should be under the "PRODUCT REVIEW" Section of this forum..........

Your marketing of your product is getting old -We are all wasting time to "people" who have accomplished NOTHING in the venues we are involved in.


Sorry I am feeding the trolls.................................


----------



## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Mike Boufford said:


> Rock star, or rather selling a business.... I'll admit that I haven't had time to look at the videos nor do I care to, but I did find his url interesting. http://franchise.sitmeanssit.com/. Fred is selling a business plain and simple.


Well duh. Ya' think?

He's found a new vertical market that he happens to personally enjoy. 
He's seen where this hunt/test/trial market is good-sized, with loyal (overly passionate) followers as evidenced by the activity on this forum, its advertisers, their products, etc.
He's trying to transition his methodology to the field, posting his efforts online, soliciting and often receiving free advice from RTF'ers, nearly all of whom are successful DIY'ers to some degree. 

This guy may be an unpopular parasite, but he's no dummy. He's even planted shills among the crowd.

He's a successful businessman who is not afraid to exploit free advertising, accept free advice, and laugh all the way to the bank as RFTer's keep reading, responding, and knotting themselves up over his posts.

More power to him. A fool is born every minute.

Mark


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> And trainers with National or World accomplishments in 4 different venues. I knew you wouldn't mention anything about the actual dogs that are being trained, cause as I said........It's about 'personal' to you.


Fred, you keep saying it's about the dogs, yet you also continue to make it personal. You throw out challenges and then back away when someone steps up to take it and makes the terms even more favorable to you; you change the subject when asked to explain a video; you bring up your accomplishments in other venues (which are great, but not relevant to the retriever games) as if those accomplishments grant you instant credibility here. 

I think it's great that you want to play the retriever games....but what is so hard about putting ego aside and learning from those with more experience? I'm not sure exactly what your goal is here on RTF? Lots of pro trainers have mentors and networks to improve their own skills. And that often means accepting personal criticism in order to improve their skills.

If you're here to put up videos of you enjoying your dog in order to get pats on the back and lots of attaboys and support (since you're not training retrievers professionally and are doing it for fun with your personal dog), then leave your other training out of the equation and come at it like a newbie to the sport, with a good dose of humility. Say stuff like "look at this cute video of my puppy retrieving in the pool" instead of calling it puppy swimby which lessens your credibility. Treat it like a personal hobby instead of an infomercial...the reaction you'll get will be more supportive and helpful, I'm sure.


----------



## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Yup and you sell dogs and ken sells syrup. Point?


The point is that he is selling a business what part of that did you miss?


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I have never understood the board trying to self regulate in this area.

If YBS isn't complaining and Chris isn't taking further steps to regulate the guy, all you do by chastising him is cause a fuss for no reason. As a former advertiser on a board about this size with 100's of advertisers, I can tell you that if a guy came on trying to sell a competing product to mine without paying his way, I was on the phone to the board owner and action was taken.

Chris has taken some action with Fred from what I'm reading in other places and after that quite frankly it's no one elses' business.

It really falls into the "don't like it, don't read it" category.

Incidentally, I have a guy I work with from Vegas who has seen Fred's advertising so frequently he knew exactly who Fred was. He had his dog trained by someone else but there was no question as to the effect of Fred's advertising campaign. 

His viral marketing effort here is just that, and needs to be treated as such.


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I have never understood the board trying to self regulate in this area.
> 
> If YBS isn't complaining and Chris isn't taking further steps to regulate the guy, all you do by chastising him is cause a fuss for no reason. As a former advertiser on a board about this size with 100's of advertisers, I can tell you that if a guy came on trying to sell a competing product to mine without paying his way, I was on the phone to the board owner and action was taken.
> 
> ...


Another personal shot. In case you don't know anything about business, businesses are not grown by the number of vans on the street. If your product sucks, and ours is THE TRAINING OF THE DOGS (but you want to stay away from that), then you don't have any vans. I don't know if you have read the papers at all, but there is a terrible economy problem right now, and you should just talk to the President and tell him "Tell everyone to advertise on their vans, and their business will grow". Sheesh. If that was the case, we wouldn't have the economy problem that we have today. 

Yes, though your right, we get all our customers because of our work. Do you really think that a customer comes in here, gets his dog trained, and then says 'Honey, let's tell our friends cause they got cool vans!". That's like saying Apple has lines for their iphone even in a bad economy cause they got a cool logo. Couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with the training.....nah, that thought doesn't exist. Nice and personal, very consistent.


----------



## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> Another personal shot. In case you don't know anything about business, businesses are not grown by the number of vans on the street. If your product sucks, and ours is THE TRAINING OF THE DOGS (but you want to stay away from that), then you don't have any vans. I don't know if you have read the papers at all, but there is a terrible economy problem right now, and you should just talk to the President and tell him "Tell everyone to advertise on their vans, and their business will grow". Sheesh. If that was the case, we wouldn't have the economy problem that we have today.
> 
> Yes, though your right, we get all our customers because of our work. Do you really think that a customer comes in here, gets his dog trained, and then says 'Honey, let's tell our friends cause they got cool vans!". That's like saying Apple has lines for their iphone even in a bad economy cause they got a cool logo. Couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with the training.....nah, that thought doesn't exist. Nice and personal, very consistent.


Fred-
What is your "results"? What are your accomplishments - in the Hunt Test/Field Trial venues? 
(haven't read all your post - and NEVER watch any of your video's and won't until i know your results ).


----------



## CMRR&GC (Apr 3, 2010)

Ken great question....

Who is the rock star?

Is it the dog....sure? 
Is it the Jonas Brothers, Miley Cyrus, Brittany Spears, Taylor Swift etc etc etc....sure?

Or is it the producer? I'll wager if you give the guys behind the Disney machine or any big label a week at any HS of above average size and they can produce you the next Taylor of set of Jonas'....sure the kids have to be marginally talented to be marketable....the right look, carry a tune, know how to hold a guitar....but they are made into stars. 

I feel the same way about dogs hunting, testing and in trials...a dog has to have a certain level of talent and ability to perform the tasks but after that its the standards set, consistency in training, creative problem solving methods and pure-dee ol time with the pooch that sets them apart. Dogs are glorious creatures but they never do what they haven't learned....the greatest of all time didn't wake up one morning and run complex blinds on talent...they were trained or made into what they are.

The dogs may get all the praise but its the person behind them that makes them who they are...so who is the rock star?

Maybe another way to asks this is which dog does better a puppy out of a quality sire and dam who have done well but not super....nicely titled (FC's, GRCH's MH's in pedigree), suitable clearances, respected breeder...that Lardy, Carr etc. train and handle.....or a puppy from the best hypothetical pairing of sire and dam you can think of trained and handled by say me a novice who loves dogs, has worked them from the blind , has the videos, but has never really tried to take one all the way.....


----------



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I dont agree with Freds method with the puppy but I also dont care whether he is advertising his business or not. I am not a mindless sheep that will just follow. Some people are *sheeple *I am not!!!!!!
In fact I see no difference between what Fred is doing and what Evan has been doing for years on here and other boards but many *sheeple *follow Evan blindly. Nothing personal Evan. I am disliking internet dog training more and more every day and I have been a member of this board since 1998.
I am willing to look at anybodies method of dog training and if I like it fine if I dont I wont use it but I may find bits and pieces that I can use.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> Another personal shot. In case you don't know anything about business, businesses are not grown by the number of vans on the street. If your product sucks, and ours is THE TRAINING OF THE DOGS (but you want to stay away from that), then you don't have any vans. I don't know if you have read the papers at all, but there is a terrible economy problem right now, and you should just talk to the President and tell him "Tell everyone to advertise on their vans, and their business will grow". Sheesh. If that was the case, we wouldn't have the economy problem that we have today.
> 
> Yes, though your right, we get all our customers because of our work. Do you really think that a customer comes in here, gets his dog trained, and then says 'Honey, let's tell our friends cause they got cool vans!". That's like saying Apple has lines for their iphone even in a bad economy cause they got a cool logo. Couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with the training.....nah, that thought doesn't exist. Nice and personal, very consistent.


Fred, that certainly didn't read as a personal shot to me....your defensiveness leads me to that old saw "Methinks Thou Dost Protesteth Too Much". Of course a poor business can't make it by having logos on vehicles....but a good business sure can increase by it. That's why businesses do it. You're saying that you don't gain business or get calls from having your logo, etc. on vans? Then why have the added expense of putting them on? You might want to check on that when you get calls....i.e. "where did you hear about us?" I know when I had my kennel info on my other truck, I got a lot of calls from it. Guess I should get it put on this truck one of these days...thanks for reminding me. 

If you read every post defensively, with the idea that it will contain a personal attack, then you'll find one in every post, whether it's there or not. 

Peace.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

fredhassen said:


> Another personal shot.


Nothing of the sort. 



fredhassen said:


> In case you don't know anything about business, businesses are not grown by the number of vans on the street. If your product sucks, and ours is THE TRAINING OF THE DOGS (but you want to stay away from that), then you don't have any vans.


Well Fred considering I and my team built a $50 million dollar franchise for a Fortune 500 back in the late 90's, I think I know a thing or two about branding and product development/delivery. Been there done that, so to speak. I agree with you, BTW, the product creates the revenue stream to support the advertising, which in turn produces more business. I know exactly how it works and I understand the clear importance of consistency and impressions, impressions, impressions if you want to grow your business... I have studied Coca Cola, Hot Wheels, Barbie and a few others in depth so I understand how a branding scheme works. I also understand that if one link in the chain of product, advertising and service is weak, then the whole circle implodes... Been there, done that whole game, including the implosion! 



fredhassen said:


> I don't know if you have read the papers at all, but there is a terrible economy problem right now, and you should just talk to the President and tell him "Tell everyone to advertise on their vans, and their business will grow". Sheesh. If that was the case, we wouldn't have the economy problem that we have today.


LOL I hope we can agree that a good advertising campaign got an inferior product sold in this particular case! Maybe Nobama could use some vans, since his product clearly blows.



fredhassen said:


> Yes, though your right, we get all our customers because of our work. Do you really think that a customer comes in here, gets his dog trained, and then says 'Honey, let's tell our friends cause they got cool vans!". That's like saying Apple has lines for their iphone even in a bad economy cause they got a cool logo. Couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with the training.....nah, that thought doesn't exist. Nice and personal, very consistent.


I think that a percentage of the customers that come in and get their dog trained come in because they saw the van in the first place, which is exactly what the purpose of the advertising is, right? I'm sure there is also a word of mouth component involved, as there is in any business, and I agree with you that if the word of mouth were bad, the advertising would be a big waste of money.

So Fred, look, if you're not here to advertise your franchise, that's fine. I apologize if I made the wrong observation. If not I think you have a long way to go if you want to get into an exchange of information with this audience, considering you have no street cred to work with and started out with a really bad first impression. 

I think Sharon said it pretty well earlier. If you want to discuss various training methods then let's discuss them, in detail.

BTW I handled a dog much like you do at one time not so long ago. Don't sweat the directness of the feedback. It's better that way than in the more general and politically correct way you might present it. You need those details and they have to be plainly spelled out for most people to understand them.


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

J Hoggatt said:


> Fred-
> What is your "results"? What are your accomplishments - in the Hunt Test/Field Trial venues?
> (haven't read all your post - and NEVER watch any of your video's and won't until i know your results ).


Exactly my point. This is my newest venture and I'm very passionate about it.
My accomplishments here are that I just started getting out there every day, and my very young dog (15 months) passed. I'm starting over. The other stuff we've done at National and World level doesn't matter here, but I'm sure they will say it was because of the writing on the vans. 

With that being said, and with me putting up videos of showing where I am and everyone knowing I ain't just doing 1 trial and going home.....I'll be out there as much as any of you. It does baffle me that no one wants to talk about the actual training they see in the dog. You want to talk about my vans, and youtube, and blah, blah, blah. Then I put another video up, and you want to talk about who knows what.

What do you need to understand? What do you care if I train my dog with a clicker, collar, cookie, choke chain, or by black magic? I ain't asking you to understand it anymore. I don't care if you understand it. 

It's not like I'm gonna train your dog and you need to know this, cause I don't train other people's retrievers. It's not like you are going to go to a Sit Means Sit location and they are going to train your dog for a hunt test or field trial, cause they don't do it either. I ain't pushing you on me or them.
This is my full time passionate hobby.......understand?

I like to show how I'm progressing cause I document things in training. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I always write: THIS IS A VIDEO, so I don't have to hear that I'm popping all these big marketing surprises on you. 

If you don't want to help and comment on what you see, then don't do it!
I'm not here to teach you my system, and frankly I don't care whether you know it or not. Everyone else puts up videos and your comments are simple like "Nice video", or "Looks like he missed the blind, what was the terrain like?". You don't barrage them with their life history of how they trained the dog and demand to them that they tell you everything.

Evan's got videos, Lardy's got videos, they know a lot more than I do, so go ask them how they do it. Evan answers questions, ask and seems like a nice enough fella. Your welcome to comment on some helpful tips on the video if you'd like, and if you don't want to.......fine. You don't even know me, but if you don't like my writing style, then don't read it.

Who cares if I never trained a dog in my life? It's still the same video.
I'm not a quitter gentleman and I've given this a very hard try but obviously everything is personal to you people. I am going back to just posting videos, and I DO NOT TRAIN OTHER PEOPLE'S RETRIEVERS, so I'm not answering training questions because it's too hard to do over the internet. I don't train our own friggin clients dog over the phone, nor do I give them a few paragraphs to read so they can 'get it.' It needs to be hands on and it won't be on the internet. So if you want to come and learn for nothing, I'd be more than happy to show you at my free seminar that I will have that will be hands on. You want to come......fine. You don't want to come.......fine. I'm out.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm pretty sure I've asked with a sincere interest about some of the training methods. You even answered if I recall correctly. 

Good luck with the new Pup Fred. It takes a lot of stones to do it completely your own way.


----------



## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> Exactly my point. This is my newest venture and I'm very passionate about it.
> My accomplishments here are that I just started getting out there every day, and my very young dog (15 months) passed. I'm starting over. The other stuff we've done at National and World level doesn't matter here, but I'm sure they will say it was because of the writing on the vans.
> 
> With that being said, and with me putting up videos of showing where I am and everyone knowing I ain't just doing 1 trial and going home.....I'll be out there as much as any of you. It does baffle me that no one wants to talk about the actual training they see in the dog. You want to talk about my vans, and youtube, and blah, blah, blah. Then I put another video up, and you want to talk about who knows what.
> ...


Call me "thick headed" if you want, but - Your Accomplishments in the HT/FT Venues?
Started Passes/Titles?
Junior Passes/Titles?
Seasoned Passes/Titles?
Senior Passes/Titles?
Finished Passes/Titles?
Master Passes/Titles?

Derby, Qual's, Open- #ran, jammed, placements?

IF you expect to give out advice and have any "respect" - I would recommend answering the question on your accomplishments.

If you have none-- then ... you will continue to get what you are getting......

PS.
I love the innuendo regarding some "national" and "world" accomplishments--- do indulge us.------


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> It does baffle me that no one wants to talk about the actual training they see in the dog.


Well, now my feelings are hurt.  I may not be famous, but I didn't realize I was nobody. 




fredhassen said:


> This is my full time passionate hobby.......understand?



And you'll have a blast with it...it is very rewarding and a lot of fun. But since it's a hobby, how about disassociating it from your regular business?





fredhassen said:


> So if you want to come and learn for nothing, I'd be more than happy to show you at my free seminar that I will have that will be hands on. You want to come......fine. You don't want to come.......fine. I'm out.


Same offer goes back at you from me. Come out to Wisconsin, stay in my bunkhouse and learn for a week, at no charge other than your meals. I'd be happy to help you for the week, free of charge.


----------



## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

You can be honest Ken,you were just trying to get a peek a runnindawgs.lol


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

labman63 said:


> You can be honest Ken,you were just trying to get a peek a runnindawgs.lol


........


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Rock stars don't play cover tunes. They play their own stuff and do what feels right for them.
> 
> "Your an original baby, like I've never seen before"
> 
> Regards,


They also have groupies.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Yes they do, an entire forum full.....


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Yes they do, an entire forum full.....


I would agree that Lardy has rockstar status among this special interest group that frequents this forum.

I would agree that Farmer has rockstar status among this special interest group that frequents this forum.

I would agree that Rorem rockstar status among this special interest group that frequents this forum.

Credentials and accomplishments tend to give one credibility....and rockstar status.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I would agree that Lardy has rockstar status among this special interest group that frequents this forum.
> 
> I would agree that Farmer has rockstar status a
> mong this special interest group that frequents this forum.
> ...


Yes and they earned it. 

However I seem to remember a post where you said you contacted Fred about training a rescue dog.

Rock stars weren't good enough?


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> (not sure who Cleveland is/was...only one I know is Roger and he makes a great wedge..


click this http://www.ybsmedia.com/NewConnie.html
it is a good one, I recomend.You would like her, field trial runner


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Yes and they earned it.
> 
> However I seem to remember a post where you said you contacted Fred about training a rescue dog.
> 
> Rock stars weren't good enough?


I did contact Fred about training a rescue dog. A pitbull to be specific. You remember correctly.

Since you bring it up, she was obedience trained and collar conditioned PRECISELY as laid-out in Mike Lardy's videos and articles. As it turned out, Fred was the one who told me to train the pit just like I'd train a lab. 

And I did.

Chris

(and you know what....I'd probably be hopping all around Mike like Chester the dog if he were on here....so I can relate)


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I did contact Fred about training a rescue dog. A pitbull to be specific. You remember correctly.
> 
> Since you bring it up, she was obedience trained and collar conditioned PRECISELY as laid-out in Mike Lardy's videos and articles. As it turned out, Fred was the one who told me to train the pit just like I'd train a lab.
> 
> ...


Good advice to stick with what you know if you ask me. But if Fred is such a newbie like everyone says then why even call him for advice at all?

I wouldn't call someone for advice one day then laugh at jokes about his dead dog the next.

I honestly thought much higher of you than that.

Sorry for posting my feelings


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Hey, the guy is not claiming to be a pro retriever trainer...he is a newbie to the sport and says it's his new hobby that he does for fun. So his pass/fail record is probably not much different than anybody else who has started from square one and not been following a proven retriever training program. I'm willing to cut him some slack there, since he admits he's a novice at the retriever games.


----------



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

[/quote]

Chris,





I see you watched the same stuff I did on Saturday mornings when you were a kid. WB cartoons, CLASSIC!


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Good advice to stick with what you know if you ask me. But if Fred is such a newbie like everyone says then why even call him for advice at all?
> 
> *I wouldn't call someone for advice one day then laugh at jokes about his dead dog the next.*
> 
> ...


The part in bold is manipulative nonsense.

Regarding the other part:

Fred left the original RTF in 1998. I had not seen nor heard of him since. I phoned him after googling SMS, a name I remembered for 11 years and phoned him in November of 2009. I called him because he had trained a pit and I was seeking input, if he were willing to share it. 

I am deeply entrenched in phase 3 as a trainer and expect to remain here as long as I am associated with dogs. (Meaning I'm open to learning other ways, and trying to see how different approaches may aid in helping me get my dogs to do what I'm trying to accomplish.)


----------



## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Man I wish Jerry Harris was here to comment. Now there was a Rock Star, a RTF Rock Star that is. HPW


----------



## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> Hey, the guy is not claiming to be a pro retriever trainer...he is a newbie to the sport and says it's his new hobby that he does for fun. So his pass/fail record is probably not much different than anybody else who has started from square one and not been following a proven retriever training program. I'm willing to cut him some slack there, since he admits he's a novice at the retriever games.


Sharon- with due respect--- "PLEASE".

Pro or Not doesn't matter at all - I would take advice from an experienced amateur VS "any pro" - It depends are there accomplishment in the VENUE that this forum is focused on HT/FT games. 


This guys represents himself as "experienced" - I just want to know his experience.... specifically in the venue relative to this forum..... HE doesn't answer...... ---Does anybody else wonder - WHY?


----------



## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

My dogs are the rock stars. Any dog that can get senior passes with a total amature like me training and at the wheel on the line is a rock star. I proudly have two at the moment and will be running a couple more by fall and hoping to try a master test by fall.
I have learned from this and other forums, my training group and the Lardy videos and training manuals. I read the posts and take what I think will work leave what doesn't apply and have several really good threads in my favorites so I can refer to them easily.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I could care less how many ribbons he has in any given venue because you can apply his e-collar method to any venue. 

I can use the Lardy CC method on a protection dog. I could use Evan’s CC method on a search dog.

Should I not do that because Lardy never trained a bite dog before?

I can use Fred’s method and follow smart works. I can use Fred’s method and follow Total Retriever.

You are the one training YOUR dog. YOU are the one pushing the buttons and setting the levels. YOU can do what ever you want when you know how. 

Why would it matter to me how many ribbons Fred has when I am the one pushing the buttons?

Fred has a collar method, it either works or it doesn’t…


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

If I remember correctly Tank had a few 1st place ribbons in AKC obedience and passed his SH test. 

That combined with all the success by the other SMS trainers around the world in other venues using Fred’s e-collar method is more than enough proof for me that it is versitle. 

Not to forget the ones that are FEMA certified and saving people lives.

They are the rock stars IMO>


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I think he also ran in NAHRA.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks for the info...I should have done a little more homework. 

Point taken....slack removed.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Speaking of hits on youtube, you can actually buy them if you want. Who would have thought?
http://www.tubetoolbox.com/default.aspx?RefId=goog4&gclid=CKK8_ejV2qICFQlX2godbCdtog

You can buy them from youtube too. http://www.tubeplays.com/purchase.html


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Speaking of hits on youtube, you can actually buy them if you want. Who would have thought?
> http://www.tubetoolbox.com/default.aspx?RefId=goog4&gclid=CKK8_ejV2qICFQlX2godbCdtog
> 
> You can buy them from youtube too. http://www.tubeplays.com/purchase.html


Yeah try that when you have add's they will send you $10,000 a month. 

That would be fraud and you will get caught.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

CMRR&GC said:


> Ken great question....
> 
> Who is the rock star?
> 
> ...


Wow CMRR, 
If you and I go for a road trip together, I’ll bring the CD’s, O.K.?
But using your example who remembers the names of the producers vs. remembering the names of the entertainer?
Of the top of the head who produced Kenny Wayne Sheppard or Buddy Guy or Stevie Ray Vaughn? ;-)



.


----------



## Wayne Beck (Mar 22, 2010)

Kenny Wayne Sheppard blows.. I saw him open for Aerosmith in the 90's here in Philly. He was sooooo bad that he was boo'd off the stage. People were throwing shoes at him.. His name shouldnt even be in this category!


----------



## Tom Mouer (Aug 26, 2003)

Fred is using this forum to gain exposure for his franchises.
Why doesn't he buy advertising space on RTF to promote his training, instead of posing as an amateur "sharing" his methods?
I believe he should buy advertising space on the RTF if he continues to post his videos here.
Perhaps if he presented his videos with a PHANTOM trainer.......?
Pay for your exposure!
Ken Bora does, Mike Lardy does and so do others with products or services for folks that are here at the RTF.
Fred is an opportunist.
He has a product/Service to sell.
That is the reason for my original post.
So he should "pony up" for an ad, or continue to be "dissed" by the members here that share my view of "posts" by Fred, aka SMS for sale.


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

"I believe he should buy advertising space on the RTF"

I see a lot of folks who seem to think this might help?

There are a LOT of contributor's, professional and otherwise who support RTF and participate in helping DOG people, and very few of them are sponsored at the top of this page!!

So I think everyone who has a link to a home page that shows they are in the business of training dogs, selling boats or other products, they too should have a sponsor banner at the top of RTF..

Lets face it, many, many folks just can't stand Fred's video's, or his Alpha personality (which generally is a good trait).

My point is there are several great people who provide quality input to RTF and the people that train, who sell dog products/training, who do not have a banner at the top of this FORUM...

I just don't think we should single him out based on his SMS franchise.

JMDAO!


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Something must be broke on my end. I don't see an add for Ken, or many of the others that post videos in here.

People post puppy picks and sell dogs in here all the time. Everyone has a link to their kennel and I didn't see Millner kennels complain. Although I don't see his add any more.

I don't see how posting a video of your dog is advertising.


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> Something must be broke on my end. I don't see an add for Ken, or many of the others that post videos in here.



I see Ken's ad at the bottom when you first go into RTF forum, but in this thread I do not see it~!

I was about to say "Are you blind?", then I realized I could not see it either..

Oh well,.....

Wow! Had to edit, Ken's bannner is back???


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Although I don't see his add any more.


Ken does too have a banner. It's "AD" not "ADD". I will give Fred that he is articulate and writes well. I don't see that you are "adding" any credibility to his cause.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> In fact I see no difference between what Fred is doing and what Evan has been doing for years on here and other boards but many *sheeple *follow Evan blindly. Nothing personal Evan.


Let me help clear that up a bit, Steve. I actually know how to train retrievers for fieldwork, and have a track record of doing so. 

I post to help people with training questions by providing actual information. There is a page on my website with a few of the many trainers and dogs that have become champions in many field venues through my method. They can take it or leave it, but I offer what I believe is actually helpful insight. 

I'm in business, and I sell products and ideas. I do not post meaningless video clips and then refuse to explain them, or become personal or belligerant when people ask about them. I don't tell anyone on discussion boards that I'm a new messiah, and the way Carr-method trainers are training compares to my ideas like a model T to a Ferrari. Etc.

Does that provide a contrast, Steve? I understand it isn't personal. But the flaws in likening the two of us isn't factually based.

Evan


----------



## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Speaking of hits on youtube, you can actually buy them if you want. Who would have thought?
> http://www.tubetoolbox.com/default.aspx?RefId=goog4&gclid=CKK8_ejV2qICFQlX2godbCdtog
> 
> You can buy them from youtube too. http://www.tubeplays.com/purchase.html


As I originally thought, "its a marketing campiagn" to get Fred up the list for number of views and thus see his SMS advert to gain more attention to his business. I knew some how some way he was marketing SMS on "the RTF". This is proof:

FROM THE YOUTUBE LINK:
"Target your Audience"
Focus your YouTube Marketing on users who are directly within your target demographic (age, gender, location) and those who watch, comment and rate videos like your own. "


As far as Evan, he actually explains his content and has helped me over the years. I am willing to invest in his content/product, not Fred's. Fred and his francise owners will not discuss the inner works of his methods. That is a fact.

And Steve, name calling gets you in trouble with the moderator ..... guess since I follow and use Evans content, I am a quote "SHEEPLE". Back off with the generalized net thowing as you probally pissed of most of the RTF.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> Let me help clear that up a bit, Steve. I actually know how to train retrievers for fieldwork, and have a track record of doing so.
> 
> I post to help people with training questions by providing actual information..........
> 
> Evan


I gotta give this one to Evan folk. Even though I do not use his program I read the posts and he takes the time to sit down and go in depth with the folk needing help. There are times, few and far between that what I have read is all about the sell. And who hasn’t done that? 
I have Maple Syrup! 
But over all Evan is just totally helpful to both his folk and strange folk and even when he and I disagree it is a fun intelligent debate with big words and without name calling.;-) 

and I like that


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Evan said:


> I don't tell anyone on discussion boards that I'm a new messiah, and the way Carr-method trainers are training compares to my ideas like a model T to a Ferrari. Etc.
> 
> .
> 
> Evan


Keep the record straight. I never told anyone on this board that I was the messiah and I never said anything about "Carr-method trainers are training compares ideas like a model T to a Ferrari. Etc.

Everyone of you claims to be a Carr/Lardy trainer but a centimeter of your dogs look like Lardy's. I would never group all of you in the same category cause you all have different abilities. Just like all of our trainers have different abilities. Some are better than others. That would be rediculous.

What I did say, and the discussion was on FF and you were advertising some videos, was that I'd make YOUR ff look like a model t next to a Ferrari. That's what I said. Anytime you want to have a seminar and take half the room, and I'll take half the room, I'll make your head spin. Your not that good with a collar dude, and everything you can do traditionally I can do. I'll even handcuff myself and won't even earpinch. I was talking about YOU. Don't go dragging everyone else into it. Now, if anyone on this board wants to take me up on a FF seminar, let them come crawling out of the woodwork. A 3 day event and I give you one day headstart to level the playing field. And I don't care how many titles or whatever you have. You are all welcome to that challenge.

I'll respond to whoever wants to take it on, with a 'Yes', and set it up.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> I gotta give this one to Evan folk. Even though I do not use his program I read the posts and he takes the time to sit down and go in depth with the folk needing help. There are times, few and far between that what I have read is all about the sell. And who hasn’t done that?
> I have Maple Syrup!
> But over all Evan is just totally helpful to both his folk and strange folk and even when he and I disagree it is a fun intelligent debate with big words and without name calling.;-)
> 
> and I like that


Ditto, ditto ditto.... therein lies the difference.


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

Joe Brakke said:


> As I originally thought, "its a marketing campian" to get Fred up the list for number of views and thus see his SMS advert to gain more attention to his business. I knew some how some way he was marketing SMS on "the RTF". This is proof:
> 
> FROM THE YOUTUBE LINK:
> "Target your Audience"
> ...


First part........Yeah, go ahead and do that Joe, see where it gets you. That's the most groundbreaking, earth shattering marketing strategy that I've heard, and you are surely set to take over the world. Now all you need are some videos and see how that goes. I can't believe you.

I realize that you just got out of a sit down summit with all of our trainers in the room, and came up with your conclusion. You wouldn't know 2 of them if they knocked on your door. They all have their own interpretations of what we do, just like all you guys have your own interpretations of what Lardy does. Are you really that uninformed about human beings to think I am capable of creating a clone? Do you really think that I sit them down and say "Now, this is all top secret and don't say anything to anyone". I'm sorry, but you gotta go to. see ya.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

fredhassen said:


> snip.... see ya.


You really aren't leaving, are you?


----------



## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

fredhassen said:


> What I did say, and the discussion was on FF and you were advertising some videos, was that I'd make YOUR ff look like a model t next to a Ferrari. That's what I said. Anytime you want to have a seminar and take half the room, and I'll take half the room, I'll make your head spin. Your not that good with a collar dude, and everything you can do traditionally I can do. I'll even handcuff myself and won't even earpinch. I was talking about YOU. Don't go dragging everyone else into it. Now, if anyone on this board wants to take me up on a FF seminar, let them come crawling out of the woodwork. A 3 day event and I give you one day headstart to level the playing field. And I don't care how many titles or whatever you have. You are all welcome to that challenge.
> 
> I'll respond to whoever wants to take it on, with a 'Yes', and set it up.


WOW, seriously?????? Evan, please take this guy up on this....... and put him away for good. Can that be a contingency award??? LOL You can barely get a dog through a junior hunt test, and your calling out Evan......... I have seen it all........ Good lord!


----------



## black0989 (May 11, 2010)

Very entertaining to watch this whole thing unfold. Truth of the matter is Sir Fred, you will never get as far as Evan has and continues to get, because you are not a teacher. You're more like someone who does something, slings what little you do know to people who know even less and make money off of it. There is no way in h3ll that I would ever let you get anywhere near my dogs. Dont get me wrong, it has nothing to do with your "training" methods, but more along the lines of how you conduct yourself around people. Your "methods" may take off, but you won't last. You do not have what it takes to promote and develop a system such as others have done. 


That's all I have to say about this, now I'm going to read up on my Smartfetch manual i just got in, and go do something useful.

Thanks


----------



## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

black0989 said:


> Very entertaining to watch this whole thing unfold. Truth of the matter is Sir Fred, you will never get as far as Evan has and continues to get, because you are not a teacher. You're more like someone who does something, slings what little you do know to people who know even less and make money off of it. There is no way in h3ll that I would ever let you get anywhere near my dogs. Dont get me wrong, it has nothing to do with your "training" methods, but more along the lines of how you conduct yourself around people. Your "methods" may take off, but you won't last. You do not have what it takes to promote and develop a system such as others have done.
> 
> 
> That's all I have to say about this, now I'm going to read up on my Smartfetch manual i just got in, and go do something useful.
> ...


Well said! IMO


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Much as I'm tempted (and I was, for about half a second), I'm going to pass on the FF challenge. I much prefer taking my time and doing things slowly, using a collar to reinforce rather than teach. And I found your insults to Evan to be pretty arrogant, by the way. How would you know how good someone is with a collar? Have you stood next to him and watched? So far, you haven't shown us how good you are with it either...it's all smoke and mirrors. Just because what you do is different and relies on an e-collar doesn't make it automatically superior.

Your offer reminds me of the popular, famous natural horsemanship gurus who rush through colt starting in a few hours and get lots of oohs and ahhs from the uninitiated...they wow the crowd...but come Monday, somebody still has to actually train that colt. I have no doubt at all that you could have an audience in the palm of your hand...but that's not where the proof lies. 

Ain't nobody gonna do any oohing and ahhing over watching me FF a dog...it's a slow process without any showboating involved, and I have no desire to rush it. 

Carr/Lardy is a method...a plan, if you will, with a set of building blocks for each skill set that is a logical progression....just because someone is trying to follow that method doesn't mean they instantly turn into Rex Carr or Mike Lardy. It's the innate skill of the individual doing the training and handling that makes or breaks a method.

How about, instead of showboating, you simply explain your method for FF? How does it work, start to finish? How is the collar used? How does it work on a dog with zero desire to retrieve/no prey drive? 

I'm dead serious....I'd love to know, and if you can show me a better way, I'm all over it. 

I'm here, waiting....teach me.


----------



## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

I think all this SMS is pretty funny actually. I have a buddy that trains gun dogs that just had a dog brought to him that one of the so called SMS trainers in Douglasville GA did some "training" on. First of all if that's what SMS calls obedience, WOW! Second the dog was supposed to have been CC, again WOW! The dog works fine while retrieving, until you put a collar on her then she walks to the bumper/birds. It is very obvious even to an idiot like me that she has no clue what a collar is. Well let me correct that, all she knows is burn, burn, burn on the way out to pickup a mark! It seems the poor guy that owns this dog put a pretty good amount of money into her "training" and bought into the SMS program, but now has a different outlook on it. Oh well I guess this is another case of some "trainers" not knowing WTH they are doing and now someone has to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit!!


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Evan would never stoop to this kind of "comparison"...Fred needs it because Evan has built up credibility and Fred wants part of that market...so what better way than to take on one of the leaders in the industry to try and get a foothold in that market...

I saw this same tactic when I worked for Hank Haney the golf instructor..people would challenge him all the time on his methods saying his methods were old school and wouldn't work....we used to call them golf gunslingers, because they were looking to make a name for themselves by going heads up against guys like Hank,Ledbetter,Harmon..of course none of the reputable teachers would give them the time of day or the stage to preach their rhetoric...and of course these gunslingers would hook a follower or three and the lost and curious would always stop and take a look because they were indeed looking for the magic swing key instead of putting in the time on the practice range...so many similarities in the dog training world


----------



## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

fredhassen said:


> First part........That's the most groundbreaking, earth shattering marketing strategy that I've heard, and you are surely set to take over the world. Now all you need are some videos and see how that goes. I can't believe you.
> 
> You wouldn't know 2 of them if they knocked on your door. QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> Anytime you want to have a seminar and take half the room, and I'll take half the room, I'll make your head spin. Your not that good with a collar dude, and everything you can do traditionally I can do. I'll even handcuff myself and won't even earpinch. I was talking about YOU...
> 
> I'll respond to whoever wants to take it on, with a 'Yes', and set it up.


Fred,

If it's true that "everything (I) can do traditionally (you) can do", why on earth don't you do it, and stop merely claiming you can? How do you summon such arrogance from a _JH_? Before I became aware of you, and how you do business, I might have accepted your inane challenge - just for fun. But you've shown yourself unworthy to appear with, and I don't need the type of association appearing with you is apt to produce. 

You've shown yourself to be bad for the board, bad for the retreiver training business, and without sufficient integrity to recognize it, much less repair it. I want nothing more to do with you. Write whatever you care to, post more meaningless videos, make more totally unsupported claims of superiority...in other words, more of the same. I don't care enough to engage further. I'm only sorry to have indulged you to this extent.

Evan


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't know how to break those quotes up like you did Sharon, so I'll do it this way without misquoting anything. 

Sharon writes: Much as I'm tempted (and I was, for about half a second), I'm going to pass on the FF challenge. I much prefer taking my time and doing things slowly, using a collar to reinforce rather than teach. 

Fred: If you change your mind on the challenge, it will still be available. I have no problem with that. I just don't think it's fair to make blanket comparison statements if you haven't seen it done by people that do it very successfully at both ends. Is it fair for me to pick one of you people that 'claims' they are doing what Lardy does, and maybe they've been doing for a week. It's not fair for me to say "I just saw the Lardy system and it's not very impressive." I'd go hang around Lardy for awhile, and then take everything everyone else says with a grain of salt. Who have you seen that teaches with a collar? 

Sharon: And I found your insults to Evan to be pretty arrogant, by the way. 

Fred: Obviously, you didn't have a problem with the jab at me, but that's o.k. I thought I'd just reclarify for the record.  I'm not arrogant, when I put something up like that, I'm very confident about it.

Sharon: How would you know how good someone is with a collar? 

Fred: I have eyes. I just know, I watch everything. He's a good trainer, but no way does he want to get in the same arena with me and FF. Ferrari, and model T. Very confident of that, and I'll back it up. Now, before you start twisting it all around into all kinds of advanced retriever stuff, and this and that. My comment was directed at FF. Not only will it be 5 times faster at least, but it will be more thorough also. I'll throw that in as well. 

Sharon: Have you stood next to him and watched? So far, you haven't shown us how good you are with it either...it's all smoke and mirrors. Just because what you do is different and relies on an e-collar doesn't make it automatically superior.

Fred: I don't need to stand next to him, I know what I know, and I see what I see. If it's all smoke and mirrors, then you take me up on it. Your welcome to make a fool out of me. You know what you know also. You've already given away your hand in that you don't teach.......you don't have a prayer. Not arrogant, just confident. Smoke and mirrors? Boy am I gonna look stupid then, aren't I?

Sharon: Your offer reminds me of the popular, famous natural horsemanship gurus who rush through colt starting in a few hours and get lots of oohs and ahhs from the uninitiated...they wow the crowd...but come Monday, somebody still has to actually train that colt. I have no doubt at all that you could have an audience in the palm of your hand...but that's not where the proof lies. 

Fred: Then what's the problem? You can take a kitty up and get 20 bucks from everyone, and I'll match it. Winner take all. I don't know what to say, cause you keep taking potshots, but not backing it up. I'm the one seeing smoke and mirrors. Oh, only one other prequisite to make it official. I know you have a lot of retriever titles, so you have to take the ribbons, and place them next to the dog during your process. 
After all, you can't know anything unless you have a bunch of retriever titles, so we'll have something to look back on. Who knows, the dog may look at them and could just rush to the finish line. You will need all the outside forces you can muster. 

Sharon: Ain't nobody gonna do any oohing and ahhing over watching me FF a dog...it's a slow process without any showboating involved, and I have no desire to rush it. 

Fred: Great, take your time. I already know that. If there was a better way, you'd be doing it. You just don't know what you don't know. I'll do my three days, and we'll video. I'll go home and wait for you to do your day, week, month, or year, you video the segments. Take your time, cause it wouldn't be a 'fair' evaluation of your program if you rushed it, and it's not someone else's 'perception' of your program. It's your program with you doing it. That's fair. Time isn't important. If you take longer and it's a better job, that's all that counts. If the dog's screaming the whole time and you don't care, well then your just limited to doing it behind closed doors. I ain't tying him up, and I'm not earpinching, and I only need a chair. Obviously, I have to get him picking it up off the ground, and if I get the luxury that you guys have in throwing away all the crap and only taking the good stuff, I'll take him wayyyyyyyyyy farther and it will be a total landslide.

Sharon: Carr/Lardy is a method...a plan, if you will, with a set of building blocks for each skill set that is a logical progression....just because someone is trying to follow that method doesn't mean they instantly turn into Rex Carr or Mike Lardy. It's the innate skill of the individual doing the training and handling that makes or breaks a method.

Fred: Yep, sounds like you know it well. Should be a much easier time for you since you know it, and I'm not going up against someone that doesn't have a clue. I believe Evan knows it as well. You can bring him too, and we can take the better of the two of you against me. No problem, whatever you want to do. I'll have him collar conditioned as well, just to make it easier on you. O.K., so now I have to collar condition, FF, and you and Evan have a bunch of retriever ribbons at the dogs feet to make it more intimidating for me. I don't have a prayer.

Sharon: How about, instead of showboating, you simply explain your method for FF? How does it work, start to finish? How is the collar used? How does it work on a dog with zero desire to retrieve/no prey drive? 

Fred: I will make you one promise. After you see this, you will completely understand why it couldn't be explained, and I will point that out a long the way. I promise. You don't know what you don't know.

Sharon: I'm dead serious....I'd love to know, and if you can show me a better way, I'm all over it. 

Fred: I'll come out and show you, I need a good dog that knows nothing. I can do a ****ty dog as well, but you won't have any need for that.

Sharon: I'm here, waiting....teach me.

Fred: I need three days, you pay for airfare and room. You have to show me your retrieve as well, I already know what I'm gonna kind of see, but I need to make you accountable in fairness. You've talked an awful big game for this be all end all program that you've got going on over there, so I need to see. I want a comparison in person.[/quote]


----------



## black0989 (May 11, 2010)

FWIW Evan, We all (with the exception of Freds's butt buddy, Packleader) know this difference in you and the program you have developed and Fred and his "Slap-chop" type "methods" of his "program". You have a system that works, is understandeable and you stand behind your product willing to help and answer any and all questions that come about. Fred will just post up another video, and grab the bottle of lube while Packleader stands behind him.

You're system has helped countless people develop and learn how to have a trained retriever. Plain and simple, I go around telling people about your methods anytime that i can. Freds stuff will make for a good laugh while drinking beers after a nice day of training with my local HRC, thats all its worth in my eyes.

Thanks


----------



## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I just think there are valid, tried and true reasons, why the training programs are structured as they are.
For many years, experienced retriever trainers, have modified these programs, tossing that which doesn't work, enhancing that which does. They will continue to do so.

Why? Because they understand the big picture is all important. And the big picture is constantly changing. 
It's _the art_ of putting all the pieces together that gets you a fully trained, field retriever.

I don't know how Fred's teaching with the collar might cause issues in the big picture.* Nor does Fred.* 
And so, at least for me, that's the point.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

cakaiser said:


> I just think there are valid, tried and true reasons, why the training programs are structured as they are.
> For many years, experienced retriever trainers, have modified these programs, tossing that which doesn't work, enhancing that which does. They will continue to do so.
> 
> Why? Because they understand the big picture is all important. And the big picture is constantly changing.
> ...




What she said.

The more I think about it, the more I like Evan's reaction. Time to to stop beating a dead horse.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> What she said.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I like Evan's reaction. Time to to stop beating a dead horse.


Yes guys and gals, it is WAY past time. I know Chris has asked us to let RTF free wheel but I'm having a hard time not yanking this thread. 

I yanked the poll and I'm on the verge of yanking this one. These types of threads are unproductive and do not add anything to RTF.

Lainee


----------



## fredhassen (Dec 4, 2009)

troy schwab said:


> WOW, seriously?????? Evan, please take this guy up on this....... and put him away for good. Can that be a contingency award??? LOL You can barely get a dog through a junior hunt test, and your calling out Evan......... I have seen it all........ Good lord!



Now THAT is the first intelligent statement I've heard in a long time. Yep.


----------



## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

ONE last thing Fred..... then Im doen with this thread:

"Fred: I will make you one promise. After you see this, you will completely understand why it couldn't be explained, and I will point that out a long the way. I promise. You don't know what you don't know."

You like to use video right???? Post up big boy....... and enlighten us all.......oh messiah of the force fetch......... Your a joke, and I now know why I had never heard of you before Youtube.com. Im done, (to the mods) thanks for letting me air.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Alright guys and gals, take the pissing contest to PMs/email.....

Enough already.


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I say after the unprofessional words to Evan, the thread should be pulled from existance, and others like them.

I was an advocate for Fred and his videos, but there is something too strange about all of this??


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Leave it up...let people read both sides and make their own choices....


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Leave it up...let people read both sides and make their own choices....


Yea, okay... Sounds good.... I was just being a REBEL and trying to defend a HERO of mine (and others)!!


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Leave it up...let people read both sides and make their own choices....


Hey Bon are you and Fred training partners? I mean you both live in the desert in the same town. Would seem like a good way for you to learn this retriever training stuff.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Hey Bon are you and Fred training partners? I mean you both live in the desert in the same town. Would seem like a good way for you to learn this retriever training stuff.


you're a funny guy Tim...I went on his ignore list early on a thread that got deleted...I will give your other comments the respect they deserve...;-)


----------



## bandcollector (Oct 9, 2003)

I remember a few eons ago. Reading Usenet newsgroups (predecessor to Web forums). If memory serves me correctly there was a fella on the rec.labradors??? group who was causing very simillar issues. Wish I could remember his name. Fred does seem to ring a bell though.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I would pay for the Fred and Even seminar. Fred could CC and FF my dog by lunch time sat, then I could work with Even on drills the rest of the weekend.

Sounds like a good times.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Fred, what you do not know or fail to see that there are some pretty intelligent folks here on the RTF that know BS when they see it. The biggest improvement you can make on this site is to go away. Good Bye!


 
Mr Brakke!! Well said!!!

Gooser portrayed his ownself as a classy guy and a spiffy dresser!
I had at the time a JH dog!!
What originally became of that,, was a rumor of me being the spittin image of Brad Pitt,, with a talented up and comming test dog!!

My accomplishements (and good looks )obviously went straight to Goosers head! It dint take me long to realise that i was just a everyday slump with a dog that couldnt sit even though I begged and pleaded with her that SIT MEANS SIT!!!

After meeting a few rtf's,, I was told on SEVERAL occations ,, I looked more like Pee Wee Herman than Brad Pitt!!:shock:

Mr Fred will eventually come round! I would encourage him to attend a FT training day! take your Senior level dog with you!! 
Humbled Gooser right Now!:razz:

Fun thread though!!!

Gooser


----------



## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> I would pay for the Fred and Even seminar. *Fred could CC and FF my dog by lunch time sat*, then I could work with Even on drills the rest of the weekend.
> 
> Sounds like a good times.


and then you'd be ready to run a Junior IF you are real quick to grab the bird......maybe


----------



## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Been my entertainment while at work today.
Thanks all. Nothing wrong with new ways to do things.
Just back it up at a high level.
Lardy and Evan, et al, all the way.


----------



## Guest (Jul 8, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> click this http://www.ybsmedia.com/NewConnie.html
> it is a good one, I recomend.You would like her, field trial runner


Made my day.


----------



## Guest (Jul 8, 2010)

FOM said:


> Yes guys and gals, it is WAY past time. I know Chris has asked us to let RTF free wheel but I'm having a hard time not yanking this thread.
> 
> I yanked the poll and I'm on the verge of yanking this one. These types of threads are unproductive and do not add anything to RTF.
> 
> Lainee


I agree, Lainee. I only checked this thread because Ken started it. I haven't been able to stomach the board because of the recent Fred threads. 

Let's please not chase anyone else who might know a thing or two


----------



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Evan said:


> Let me help clear that up a bit, Steve. I actually know how to train retrievers for fieldwork, and have a track record of doing so.
> 
> I post to help people with training questions by providing actual information. There is a page on my website with a few of the many trainers and dogs that have become champions in many field venues through my method. They can take it or leave it, but I offer what I believe is actually helpful insight.
> 
> ...


 




Sorry Evan, REALLY. 
I did not mean it that way. I did not mean to compare you and Fred as far as credentials or accomplishments go. I very much respect your knowledge of training retrievers for the field.
Some people are just calling Fred out for promoting his business and I feel you do the same so in my opinion in that respect likening the two of you is factually based but that is where it ends for sure. Just saying so what, who cares if he is promoting his business.


----------



## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> And RTF without puppy video would be lost. For example I have viewed the video of the yellow lab and the girl “runnindawgz/Danielle multiple times now.



LOL - not sure how to take that ... but I _guess_ ... thanks Ken. 

I am not trying to be a rock star... Just proud of my recent breeding and the pup I kept. 

Plus - You Tube's new video edit is "cool." 

I play lots of dog games: HT, a little FT (hoping and praying to someday be "good" at it), obedience, agility ... but not trying to be a rock star. Experienced yet humble dog trainer here; always seeking new ways to "skin the cat" and LEARN a little bit from a lot of sources.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

runnindawgz said:


> LOL - not sure how to take that ... but I _guess_ ... thanks Ken.
> 
> I am not trying to be a rock star... Just proud of my recent breeding and the pup I kept.
> 
> ...


Danielle,

I know Ken Bora pretty well. I can tell you with 100% assurance that he meant his comments as nothing but completely and totally complimentary!

Cute puppy, cute handler. Good results. 

Now that's a thing of beauty!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Danielle,
> 
> I know Ken Bora pretty well. I can tell you with 100% assurance that he meant his comments as nothing but complete and totally complimentary!
> 
> ...


 
I don't know about trusting a guy with Chessies who makes syrup? He may come across sweet but, he might be a little sticky... 

that brings up a thought- Ken, how do you keep from getting Chessie hair all over everything you ship? the bottles are staticy, the packing popcorn is worse, syrup is sticky- 

If I ran your show, the bottles would probably arrive looking like a Sasquatch figurine.


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

fredhassen said:


> Keep the record straight. I never told anyone on this board that I was the messiah and I never said anything about "Carr-method trainers are training compares ideas like a model T to a Ferrari. Etc.
> 
> Everyone of you claims to be a Carr/Lardy trainer but a centimeter of your dogs look like Lardy's. I would never group all of you in the same category cause you all have different abilities. Just like all of our trainers have different abilities. Some are better than others. That would be rediculous.
> 
> ...


Fred, this is just plain smack talking... It is why I asked for the "tone down".

Thanks in advance for your help!

Chris


----------



## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I don't mind you bad mouthing Ken Bora but when you commment about his chessies or syrup then those are fighting words. Nothing like chessie hair in your maple syrup.


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

moscowitz said:


> I don't mind you bad mouthing Ken Bora but when you commment about his chessies or syrup then those are fighting words. Nothing like chessie hair in your maple syrup.


OK call me overly sensitive but...... I find that short curly brown hairs in ANY foodstuff is pretty much offputting.

Ate my share of dog hair and then some but there are limits .

Straight haired dogs regards

Bubba


----------



## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

FOM said:


> Yes guys and gals, it is WAY past time. I know Chris has asked us to let RTF free wheel but I'm having a hard time not yanking this thread.
> 
> I yanked the poll and I'm on the verge of yanking this one. These types of threads are unproductive and do not add anything to RTF.
> 
> Lainee


Please do and bury it so far it can never rise again. And if possible get one of those mind eraser things from men in black and clear my mind of this.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I saw a squirrel playing with his nuts today. Named him bubba


/Paul


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Steve Hester said:


> This has to be the most worthless thread EVER posted on RTF.


Gee sorry steve, I thought it had merit when I started it.
Just was trying to say it is all about the dogs. I guess it branched off didn't it? Didn't know I was the most arrogant poster ever. Oh well.


----------



## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Ken, you like your syrup are the best. Maybe the 'dog hair' strainer is the secret to your successful product. Yummy, we like it even if you don't have a taste for GRITS
(Girls Raised In The South) LOL ;+)) I can't make syrup but maybe you just need a hands on lesson on how to cook grits.

Do you know what 'syrup in a well' is? Good eating down here.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Cleo Watson said:


> Ken, you like your syrup are the best. Maybe the 'dog hair' strainer is the secret to your successful product. quote]
> 
> 
> probably some secret process like Jack Daniels, strains the stuff through 12' of charcoal or something?
> ...


----------

