# Frozen Birds (thawed) in HT



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

How do you feel about the use of frozen thawed birds in a HT? I am talking about previously used, well taken care of birds in place of live or fresh killed (HRC test only). Would you be ok with it if you showed up to a test and this is what they had or ???


----------



## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

Isn't part of your entry fee supposed to be used to supply ducks for you dog to retrieve? In this case, I'd want some money back...


----------



## Grant Dasbach (Feb 17, 2006)

I agree with Sean. I also believe this actually happened this past weekend at an event in Texas. Kind of disappointing if you ask me.

Grant


----------



## kb27_99 (Sep 28, 2006)

The main problem i have with used birds is the fact that they sink, or ride very very low in the water!

Cheers,

Kevin


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

up here in Alaska we don't have the choice of using all fresh killed birds....except of course, for the shot fliers. seen some pretty stinky and sinky birds used here...waste not want not, I say! 

If we used fresh birds for every series, our tests and trials would be priced about $175....or our clubs would go out of 'business'.....

Juli


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

badbullgator said:


> How do you feel about the use of frozen thawed birds in a HT? I am talking about previously used, well taken care of birds in place of live or fresh killed (HRC test only). Would you be ok with it if you showed up to a test and this is what they had or ???


I don't mind if frozen birds are used in a first series while the supply of fresh killed is built up with fliers. However, the frozen birds always feel different from fresh killed birds and just don't last as long, particularly when the weekend is hot and there are a lot of dogs to run.


----------



## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Those are the only kind of birds we use. We are sorely lacking fully fledged live birds in this neck of the woods. We order frozen birds from a supplier in the midwest and ship them up via FedEx or UPS. We keep them frozen until we have a hunt test and then thaw them. They have not been previously used, but are definitely frozen and then thawed out. They are big, nice, fluffy mallards once they've thawed and we have not has issues with sinkers or low floaters.


----------



## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm ok with the frozen, never used birds if that's all you have to work with (where do you get the fliers?). The OP said previously used.


----------



## Tamid (Nov 7, 2007)

In Canada we ask the question, "How you gonna deal with those shot fliers when you run in the States?" New excuse for a Canadian handler, "My dog only retrieves frozen birds!"


----------



## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

Well you guys better not waste your money on entry fees in Canada, 'cause frozen is just about the norm up here, for some tests the thawed birds go three days! If you want to see great marking though, these are terrific for bird in the water marks in a pond choked with lillies and other flora.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Sean H said:


> I'm ok with the frozen, never used birds if that's all you have to work with (where do you get the fliers?). The OP said previously used.


 
I am not going to post to this thread because I do not want to bias it one way or the other.

For the record. Well cared for birds that were either shot at a tower shoot, or used in a previous HT. Plenty available. No flyer needed because as stated above I am talking about HRC and a flyer is not necessary. Talking about a mix of ducks and pheasants, with the pheasants of course only being used on land.


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

It should be clearly stated in the premium previously frozen birds to be used .And a reduced entry fee would be the right thing to do .


----------



## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

If I pay $60-$70 entry fee, I expect to have fresh birds.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

We use a minimum # of well wrapped and cared for thawed birds to begin each series on Saturday and rotate out those birds as fresh shot ones come available. In most cases, a flyer is shot on the first series. (AKC)

Using all frozen birds all day, not so sure.


----------



## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I would expect "fresh" ducks in an HRC test in the US.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Whats wrong with fresh frozen flyers from a previous trial or test?


----------



## marshmonster (Jan 21, 2009)

we had a started series last weekend that re-used the previous days birds (it was 86 degrees...) they were funky to say the least

they used them for 36 land runs, and 36 water runs, and then let them sit overnight and reused them...

I understand fully that a dog should retrieve whatever it is sent for, and bring it to hand..

but started dogs are not all FF trained yet. My little one failed for other reasons (like she stopped to pee for 5 minutes and got sidetracked and lost her mark....)

but my bigger dog didn't want them in his mouth (he passed, but I had to use the "hold" command a few times on his deliveries).

one dog ROLLED on one!!!!!

by the end of the second day, the birds were bad....so bad I didn't take any freebies to train with. Breasts exposed, flies all over them, etc...

I could see young dogs, or non-FF dogs failing due to bird conditions.....and quite honestly, I dn't know I'd want my dogs picking them up anyway. A taste of meat could set me back months.


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

marshmonster said:


> we had a started series last weekend that re-used the previous days birds (it was 86 degrees...) they were funky to say the least
> 
> they used them for 36 land runs, and 36 water runs, and then let them sit overnight and reused them...
> 
> ...


Dog should not be expected to pick a bird up not fit for your table.One of the few triples I shot (Can. Goose) ,dog brought back the cripple first , then one dead , and would not pick up #3 ,circling it and poking at it , but not picking it up .I was NOT HAPPY . Then I paddled over to it , and smelled it from 10 yards away .Goose had monofiliment wrapped around a leg , and it was loaded with gangrene .Dogs are smarter than we are .


----------



## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

We always start our AKC tests with a minimum number of fresh killed birds and shoot fliers in every stake. By the end of the day, the birds are usually in pretty rough shape. I can't imagine birds that have been used at a previous test being in very good condition to use at a test.


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I've heard thatit is so cold up there at the North Pole, that when the fliers are shot they freeze before they hit the ground*!!??!!??*:shock:


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I am pretty sure I ran into this for the first time (that I was aware of) this Spring. I was more focused on the job my dog was doing than on checking out the bird I just took from him, so I cannot be sure. I remember thinking that the birds had been frozen and were not 100% thawed out on the morning series on Saturday. It didn't bother me and I didn't notice that the condition of the birds was poor. I remember that the neck of the duck looked stiff when my dog was returning. I won't mention the club because I'm not sure they were frozen and I don't want to start any rumors and also because I didn't care.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

If you HAD to use them due to bird kill at producer or a quarantine concern, then yes, use them. There should be enough on hand that each dog gets a minimum of two birds each day since they don't float well and they have been previously used.


----------



## Frenchy (Jul 9, 2005)

Man, I've only run one test out of AK so I'm biased to my experiences there, but we always reused from the first days test to the last days test. We threw out the obvious bad ones, but what we considered bad was pretty darn bad. We also saved the shot flyers on sunday and kept them frozen until the next summers event to use as our start up birds the first day. 

There were some definate dishrags of ducks, but they were no different than the ones we were forced to train with!


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

We are using a set number of thawed birds to get the stakes rolling, there is no way our club is going to shoot a crap load of ducks to get the first series going....every dog will get a flier, but the dead stations will be thawed birds for the first few....we will rebird with fresh fliers as they sre shot.....

And on the second & third day of our trial we will start the day off with the birds from the day before.....

Logistically it makes sense....if a person doesn't want thawed birds for the first few on Friday then I suggest not entering our event! Just saying....

FOM


----------



## Kevin Hannah (Jan 6, 2003)

All our birds are frozen, they are all new birds though that have not been used already. No other options here.


----------



## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

About fifteen years ago I ran a HT that used previously frozen birds. Nothing, nothing, nothing but griping from the contestants, ESPECIALLY when the birds started sinking.

But then when the club explained that because of costs (including to use the site property) it was the only way they could afford to put on the HT, suddenly all the griping stopped. :-?


----------



## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

All of our birds are live when they arrive on the grounds. We gas what dead birds we need to start stakes in the morning. Each stakes starts with fresh birds, but we do re-use birds for Master on Sunday (they are put in the freezer overnight).


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

all I can say is you guys really need to appreciate the readily available supply of fresh killed or live birds.

We Alaskans should get double extra credit for recycling our birds. 

Juli


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

sky_view said:


> all I can say is you guys really need to *appreciate the readily available supply of fresh killed or live birds*.
> 
> We Alaskans should get double extra credit for recycling our birds.
> 
> Juli


Ditto with emphasis


----------



## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Ditto with emphasis


Sounds like a business opportunity for some aspiring Alaskan,


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Sean H said:


> Sounds like a business opportunity for some aspiring Alaskan,


A guy by the name of Chetney from Clear up in the Fairbanks area had a place to raise ducks. He had a lot of them die the 2nd year into it and lost money. 

The clubs here in Anchorage raised them for awhile at a member's house. The member moved and that was that.

We can no longer fly in live ducks and that is a major impediment to getting live ones. I think in the coming years we either go to all dead birds or we have no trials or hunt tests.


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Sean H said:


> Sounds like a business opportunity for some aspiring Alaskan,


 
I have thought long and hard about this...it would be very difficult to do here...and I think some people have given it a try.

Thing is, we have 6-7 months of winter....which means 6-7 months of trying to keep water available to a couple hundred ducks - not to mention building flight pens, etc..... Also the cost of feed is a big drawback.....although I think a person could get some barley and possibly other grains in bulk to supplement a commercial feed.....

I would like to build a large enough enclosure on our 40 acres to raise a large amount of ducks to help out the clubs, but could only do so in the spring and summer months....I would not want to deal with caring for them in the winter...I figure it costs about 12.00 in commercial feed to raise one duck for 5 months...add to that the cost of the ducklings (4.00 each) and it would definitely save the clubs a little money....

If I got ducklings in early April, they would likely be flying by mid-July, which would help, but not cover all the tests and trials, unless the clubs were willing to push back some of their test dates....plus, who wants to drive all the way to Tok to pick up flyers...LOL......

Juli


----------



## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I don't mind reusing good ducks from Saturday for Sunday but frozen ducks from a previous test, not so cool and puts presure on the judges as if they had picked them.


----------



## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Absent some special circumstances like they have in Alaska, I am totally opposed to the use of frozen birds. Prices for events keep rising, there are some around here that are charging $80 per entry, for that price the dogs deserve a reasonably fresh bird. As a judge I havee been lobbied to use frozen pheasants a prospect which really bothered me. We refused to use them except on the land blind.

I've had frozen and not thawed birds thrown for my dogs at a non AKC test. Darn thing(roof rat) looked like the Maltese Falcon when it went up. Seems to me it wasn't too long ago that one H/T sponsoring org almost imploded over the idea of using rubber ducks in all their tests.


----------



## Tstreg (Dec 28, 2005)

Whenever possible the dogs deserve fresh birds. Its a "hunt test" The purpose is to simulate a day hunting and test the dogs ability to complete the tasks. I for one am willing to pay extra for fresh birds. I have been burned in tests in both NAHRA and AKC. When I am hunting my dogs do not retrieve smelly garbage birds. By the rules the bird must be "fit for table" I pitty the judge that is asked to eat some of the stuff my dog has retrieved. A entry fee of $55 should cover fresh birds. It would not suprise me if a judge was asked to eat a "frozen or blasted shot flier gut pile" when they fail a dog for FF or pick up issues. Just saying, respect the dogs, handlers and games we play.


----------



## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

Proper bird management can make or break a hunt. I see nothing wrong with starting with GOOD previously frozen birds. The key word is good. But, the birds should be thawed before use. This is especially true if the test includes blinds. 

What else can clubs do? Well, here are a few suggestions:

1. Separate the flyers so they are used only on marks and not on blinds. Use your good previously frozen birds on the blinds. Keep a few flyers back to have fresh birds on the water marks. Sinking birds are just wrong. 

2. Use club member training birds for the set-up and/or test dog. You can flag the birds that are for this use so no competitor gets them. I was at a test not too long ago that had thirty dogs in the flight. The first series was a water triple with a blind and the club gave the judges thirty birds for the day. Each mark was in the water. They did each winger three times for the set-up dog and then another throw for the test dog. Before the first dog ran, fourteen or so birds had been in the water. By the time the last few dogs ran, the birds were sinking. Sinking birds are just wrong. 

3. Put the money out for birds. There are places to get birds. Pony up and supply decent birds so that ALL the dogs get a good one. Clubs that manage birds properly can do it with 1.5 birds per dog. I would rather have good birds than a tailgate party. If I went out because of a sinking bird, I probably would not want to be at the tailgate party anyway. 

4. If it is hot, look into renting a refrigerated truck to store the birds overnight. If you can keep them dry and cool, birds will last. If it is hot and you cannot get them dry, the birds will simply rot. Rotten, sinking birds are just wrong. 

5. Provide decent dryers for the birds. If you can keep them dry, they will last longer. I have even seen clubs that towel the birds off before hanging them. Whatever will work to keep them floating, cause sinking birds are just wrong. Of course, if you get monsoon rains, all bets are off. Keep the birds covered as best as possible and hope for better weather the next day. 

Bad birds at a test are a pet peeve of mine. Can you tell?

Carol


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I'm guessing you don't particularly like sinking birds. 

sinking birds ARE just wrong,

Juli


----------



## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

You are right.

Sinking birds are just wrong regards,

Carol


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

For HT's the AKC rules mandate 2 live game birds per entered dog. It is about time that they start enforcing that part of the rules.

Also, the RAC would do well by addressing that same situation in FT's, by changing the bird #'s requirement from a recommendation to a "rule".


Defacing birds indeed,

john


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

john fallon said:


> For HT's the AKC rules mandate 2 live game birds per entered dog. It is about time that they start enforcing that part of the rules.
> 
> Also, the RAC would do well by addressing that same situation in FT's, by changing the bird #'s requirement from a recommendation to a "rule".
> 
> ...


 
this would essentially kill akc hunt tests and trials in Alaska....Hello HRC, NAHRA.....

it is hard enough for our AKC clubs to raise the funds needed for just one live bird per dog.....unless they raise the entry fees...and then they would lose a lot of people that just could not afford to run such tests...those people would then move to HRC or NAHRA...

or would train train train, get their title, and stop running...

Juli


----------



## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Alaska got a break when the AKC allowed the continued use of pigeons in H/Ts there, I would think a similar concession should be made in this area.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Alaska got a break when the AKC allowed the continued use of pigeons in H/Ts there, I would think a similar concession should be made in this area.


Why? There is no compelling reason here, is there ?

john


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I have been to some of the akc test to watch, and once to run.....never have seen or even heard of pigeons being used. 

maybe someone that is more involved with the akc clubs can clarify?

Juli


----------



## SMS (May 26, 2005)

Huntindawg wrote:
I am pretty sure I ran into this for the first time (that I was aware of) this Spring. I was more focused on the job my dog was doing than on checking out the bird I just took from him, so I cannot be sure. I remember thinking that the birds had been frozen and were not 100% thawed out on the morning series on Saturday. It didn't bother me and I didn't notice that the condition of the birds was poor. I remember that the neck of the duck looked stiff when my dog was returning. I won't mention the club because I'm not sure they were frozen and I don't want to start any rumors and also because I didn't care.
__________________

Don't really have the answer for you on this one, but I would like to tell you about something I saw this past weekend:
Was on my way to the Master on Sat AM-so, it's first series, there on the road was 3 ducks that had obviously fallen out of the bird bag when they were delivering birds. So, I stopped & picked them up & carried them to the Master stake. They were still warm, fresh killed, but their necks were stiff, like you mentioned, from being crammed in the bird bag. So, in defense of that club, maybe it was the same situation.


----------



## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

After I read this thread and all the problems you mentioned, I came to think that our working-tests are really not too bad. In fact all the dogs have the same conditions because all the bumpers are exactly the same. And they are NOT sinking. No additional enery wasted in freezing them for storage. And by the way an correct trained dog is supposed to retrieve anything. Even a bumper


----------



## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

There is NO excuse for not having appropriate birds at an AKC test. Frozen used birds are NOT appropriate for dogs under judgement, period. If you want to use frozen birds for the set-up and test dogs, no problem. But when those score books are opened the birds had better be fresh as stated in the regulations and guidelines.


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

SMS said:


> Huntindawg wrote:
> I am pretty sure I ran into this for the first time (that I was aware of) this Spring. I was more focused on the job my dog was doing than on checking out the bird I just took from him, so I cannot be sure. I remember thinking that the birds had been frozen and were not 100% thawed out on the morning series on Saturday. It didn't bother me and I didn't notice that the condition of the birds was poor. I remember that the neck of the duck looked stiff when my dog was returning. I won't mention the club because I'm not sure they were frozen and I don't want to start any rumors and also because I didn't care.
> __________________
> 
> ...


It is possible that rigor had set in on the bird. I'm just used to floppy necks on dead birds at hunt tests and training. The body seemed stiff too (seems like the wings were tucked tight to the bodies), but rigor could explain that too. It was a water test at a HRC event just to clarify. I'm not 100% sure they had been frozen but that was my impression. It did not affect my impression of the quality of the hunt test at all.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Swampcollie said:


> But when those score books are opened the birds had better be fresh as stated in the regulations and guidelines.


Not that I am in favor of frozen birds, I am not.

However, I do not know that the Rulebook requires "fresh" birds.

Rather it says that "live flying game birds" be "made available for use."


----------



## Matt Griffiths (Feb 3, 2004)

Not only contrary to the Rules, it’s Classless. It a club does this it, shows how much respect they have for the event and sport, None.


----------



## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Not that I am in favor of frozen birds, I am not.
> 
> However, I do not know that the Rulebook requires "fresh" birds.
> 
> Rather it says that "live flying game birds" be "made available for use."


Ted,

For AKC Hunt Tests

"A minimum of two *live birds* per entry must be made available for use by the judges at all test levels."

That's about as fresh as they come.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Swampcollie said:


> Ted,
> 
> For AKC Hunt Tests
> 
> ...


That is true, the book says that. It does not say the judges have to shoot them as flyers. Those birds can be used anyway the judges decide. If they want to kill them and have them thrown as dead birds they can.

/Paul


----------



## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

Swampcollie said:


> ..."A minimum of two *live birds* per entry must be made available for use by the judges at all test levels."
> 
> That's about as fresh as they come.


I don't think the question is about shot flyers, it's about using frozen birds for the other marks in the series. Do the rules state that frozen birds cannot be used for those?

Last year at our test we used frozen birds (well thawed), that were in good shape, to get things rolling and then cycled in the fresh-shot flyers, using the birds that were in the best shape wherever possible.

I think the bottom line is to use the best birds that are in the best condition, whenever possible. I've been to tests where the "fresh shot flyers", being reused over and over, were in pretty bad shape. I'd have welcomed a formerly frozen bird in good shape, at that point.


----------



## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Ron in Portland said:


> I don't think the question is about shot flyers, it's about using frozen birds for the other marks in the series. Do the rules state that frozen birds cannot be used for those?
> 
> Last year at our test we used frozen birds (well thawed), that were in good shape, to get things rolling and then cycled in the fresh-shot flyers, using the birds that were in the best shape wherever possible.
> 
> I think the bottom line is to use the best birds that are in the best condition, whenever possible. I've been to tests where the "fresh shot flyers", being reused over and over, were in pretty bad shape. I'd have welcomed a formerly frozen bird in good shape, at that point.


Ron,

It isn't about having a flyer, it's about the condition of the birds. A thawed out, previously used bird is in no way shape or form an equal to a live bird. No way, no how.


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Swampcollie said:


> For AKC Hunt Tests
> 
> "A minimum of two *live birds* per entry must be made available for use by the judges at all test levels."
> 
> That's about as fresh as they come.


If that is all that the AKC HT rule book has to say about the type and condition of the birds then the two are not mutually exclusive. As long as two live birds per entry are made available that does not in and of itself preclude the club from ALSO using frozen and thawed birds in addition to however and whenever they decide to use the live birds.


----------



## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> If that is all that the AKC HT rule book has to say about the type and condition of the birds then the two are not mutually exclusive. As long as two live birds per entry are made available that does not in and of itself preclude the club from ALSO using frozen and thawed birds in addition to however and whenever they decide to use the live birds.


The premise of this thread by the OP is using frozen, previously used birds in place of fresh/live birds.

The Judges decide how the birds will be used, not the clubs. I can't forsee why a club would need to provide two live birds per entry plus additional dead frozen birds for a HT.

If clubs no longer wish to use live birds, there is a process. Propose a regulation modification and submit it to the RHTAC. Otherwise clubs have an obligation to live by the Rules, Regulations and Guidelines.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Folks please READ the question. *ONLY TALKING ABOUT HRC*. AKC rule have no meaning in this discussion. This is about HRC OR JUST HOW YOU FEEL ABOUTTHE USE OF THAWED BIRDS IN GENERAL LEAVING AKC RULES OUT OF IT


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Swampcollie said:


> Ted,
> 
> For AKC Hunt Tests
> 
> ...


"Made available" is not the same as "Shall be shot" for ....


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Swampcollie said:


> The premise of this thread by the OP is using frozen, previously used birds in place of fresh/live birds.


That is true. It was also specifically about HRC only, but the thread has morphed and some people, including yourself, began answering in terms of AKC HT and AKC FT. Some people stated that they may begin the first series using frozen/thawed birds. I was stating that the requirement of 2 live birds to be made available does not in and of itself prohibit the use of SOME frozen/thawed birds. The exclusive use of frozen/thawed birds would be different obviously.


----------



## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

FOM said:


> We are using a set number of thawed birds to get the stakes rolling, there is no way our club is going to shoot a crap load of ducks to get the first series going....every dog will get a flier, but the dead stations will be thawed birds for the first few....we will rebird with fresh fliers as they sre shot.....
> 
> And on the second & third day of our trial we will start the day off with the birds from the day before.....
> 
> ...


This is pretty much what we do. The dog's don't care that the birds starting the trial were frozen. Holy cow!


----------



## LeeAmundson (Dec 20, 2005)

Where do you order those birds from?


----------



## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

A local HRC club used to do this all the time. Birds were TERRIBLE after being thrown once in water. Then they would try to use them the 2nd day!! Reaaly soured you on going to their hunts. I don't mind them being used as blind birds as long as they are kept separate from the birds for marks.


----------



## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

A local HRC club recently used frozen/thawed ducks from another test for the land series and I don't think it presented any problems. I judged one of those land series and didn't see any issues with it. They were picky about the "used" ducks that were put into play.

As a handler or a judge I'd much rather see this that the use of pigeons.


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> How do you feel about the use of frozen thawed birds in a HT? I am talking about previously used, well taken care of birds in place of live or fresh killed (HRC test only). Would you be ok with it if you showed up to a test and this is what they had or ???


I would not be ok with this. What I see happening is the criteria slowly degrade from "well taken care of" (which can be subjective), to just about any bird that the club chooses to keep.


----------



## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

If The Events Are Supposed To Simulate Hunting Then When Do We Ever Hunt Frozen Birds?


----------



## BMay (Mar 3, 2003)

BBG
Personally, when I attend an event, HRC--AKC--NAHRA or whatever, as a handler or as a judge, the condition of the birds the club might use to start a test, within reason, either fresh killed or fresh frozen 'once' used and thawed, is not of my concern. With that said, I DO expect ALL the ducks used in the water series to ALL float "the same for each dog." We've all seen some dogs pick up high riding floaters and the very next dog may get a sinker. NOT RIGHT! Note: Most 'young' ducks do not have the necessary oils to keep them floating high and dry. Using these same birds over and over (rebirding) in the same test is where the problems begin. Having your water marks fall on/in the shoreline cover, makes a huge difference and each dog has the same 'equal' fairness to the retrieve. IMO, previously once used, frozen/thawed ducks, like those that were 'once' used in/as a land series flyer...I have zero problems with using those ducks. IMO, whining over Fresh killed VS Frozen thawed birds, to start a test, should not have any bearing on what you paid for your entry fee. You entered the event, so I assume your dog is trained and has seen 'many' not so fresh ducks in training. So, if the test is a fair set up your dog won't care if it's a "fresh" or a "freshly frozen" thawed duck. Again, this is just MHO.


----------



## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

sky_view said:


> I have been to some of the akc test to watch, and once to run.....never have seen or even heard of pigeons being used.
> 
> maybe someone that is more involved with the akc clubs can clarify?
> 
> Juli


Well, I haven't personally seen that up here either, but have only been running them for 5 years, and helping the club for 7...


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Folks please READ the question. *ONLY TALKING ABOUT HRC*. AKC rule have no meaning in this discussion. This is about HRC OR JUST HOW YOU FEEL ABOUTTHE USE OF THAWED BIRDS IN GENERAL LEAVING AKC RULES OUT OF IT


Geez, Corey don't be a HT snob. I must have missed where this was HRC only. 

So let me get this straight. HRC doesn't want dead frozen birds, they want live fresh birds, but don't want to shoot them so they stuff 30-40 of them in a trash can and stick poison gas in there to kill them? What makes you think I want my dog retrieving poison gas?

/Paul


----------



## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> If The Events Are Supposed To Simulate Hunting Then When Do We Ever Hunt Frozen Birds?


 
They aren't still frozen, they are thawed out..... Then we use the fliers from the 1st series to start the water.


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

DEDEYE said:


> They aren't still frozen, they are thawed out..... Then we use the fliers from the 1st series to start the water.


Maybe Bob thinks our temps are below freezing and the birds just never get a chance to thaw.  LOL LOL LOL....;-) Nothin like a water series where all the dogs walk (or run) on water!!!

Juli


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Geez, Corey don't be a HT snob. I must have missed where this was HRC only.
> 
> So let me get this straight. HRC doesn't want dead frozen birds, they want live fresh birds, but don't want to shoot them so they stuff 30-40 of them in a trash can and stick poison gas in there to kill them? What makes you think I want my dog retrieving poison gas?
> 
> /Paul


We used CO2 to "gas" our birds. Which it the same thing you and your dog exhale every time you breathe. Be carefull breathing that poison gas around your dog. Also keep that dog away from the poisonous gas eminating from your soft drink can.

The Horror of it all
Mark L.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Maybe Bob thinks our temps are below freezing and the birds just never get a chance to thaw. :smile: LOL LOL LOL....:wink: Nothin like a water series where all the dogs walk (or run) on water!!!


That would be winter training. Where you thaw the ducks out the night before and they're frozen again before you finish training.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fishduck said:


> We used CO2 to "gas" our birds. Which it the same thing you and your dog exhale every time you breathe. Be carefull breathing that poison gas around your dog. Also keep that dog away from the poisonous gas eminating from your soft drink can.
> 
> The Horror of it all
> Mark L.





> *Toxicity*
> 
> 
> Main symptoms of Carbon dioxide toxicity, by increasing volume percent in air.[35][36].
> ...



Its no laughing matter. I'll take my chances getting shot....

/Paul


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> If The Events Are Supposed To Simulate Hunting Then When Do We Ever Hunt Frozen Birds?


When my buddy in a white suit jumps up 600 yrds away shoots a duck in the next slough and the handler calls their dogs name.......


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Its no laughing matter. I'll take my chances getting shot....
> 
> /Paul


With some of the gunners I have seen the death by firing squad is not always certain. I have never had one fly away from the gas chamber.
Mark L.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fishduck said:


> With some of the gunners I have seen the death by firing squad is not always certain. I have never had one fly away from the gas chamber.
> Mark L.


I've seen plenty of cripples get away because the dogs won't pick them up. Killing them first sure takes away the opportunity to test a dogs hunting ability. By rule a started dog never gets the opportunity to tell me he can pick up a cripple. What good is any dog that can't pick up a cripple...?

/Paul


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I've seen plenty of cripples get away because the dogs won't pick them up. Killing them first sure takes away the opportunity to test a dogs hunting ability. By rule a started dog never gets the opportunity to tell me he can pick up a cripple. What good is any dog that can't pick up a cripple...?
> 
> /Paul


This started questioning whether you wanted your dogs picking up "gassed" ducks. The CO2 dissipates in open air so the "gassed" ducks are no more dangerous than another duck that has been exposed to carbon dioxide from the breath of the previous dog. 

Now we seem to have questions about the whole HRC program simply because the opportunity is not there to prove that a dog will pick up a cripple. 1: Most do not hunt with started level dogs. That give a dog at that stage of training far too many chances to develop bad habits. They are also not required to deliver to hand at started but I don't hunt dogs until after FF. 2: How is this tested any better in the AKC with shot birds. Sure you get a few cripples but my dog is 2 passes from MH and has never had one in a test. If you want to test for cripples you are going to have to use shackled birds and I am unaware of any program that uses them.

If you don't like HRC started just don't run!!!
Mark Land


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fishduck said:


> This started questioning whether you wanted your dogs picking up "gassed" ducks. The CO2 dissipates in open air so the "gassed" ducks are no more dangerous than another duck that has been exposed to carbon dioxide from the breath of the previous dog.
> 
> Now we seem to have questions about the whole HRC program simply because the opportunity is not there to prove that a dog will pick up a cripple. 1: Most do not hunt with started level dogs. That give a dog at that stage of training far too many chances to develop bad habits. They are also not required to deliver to hand at started but I don't hunt dogs until after FF. 2: How is this tested any better in the AKC with shot birds. Sure you get a few cripples but my dog is 2 passes from MH and has never had one in a test. If you want to test for cripples you are going to have to use shackled birds and I am unaware of any program that uses them.
> 
> ...




It is well known that CO2 is not always used as the gas to dispatch the birds. Regardless though killing them this way does leave a distinct odor on the birds that some dogs don't like. Let me ask you this. Would you rather a have a dog that won't pick up a bird because its been gassed or because its a cripple? Which tests the merits of true hunting dog?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against HRC at all. I've spent the past year helping get a club started and we just completed our first HT. Yet the one thing I really struggle with is the absulute stance HRC people take on shooting birds. I've heard every excuse out there for why flyer's shouldn't be used. Now your're making the argument that not using flyers in started is ok because people don't really hunt with them. Yet when I look at page 31 of the rules it says this;





> PURPOSE
> 
> The purpose of the licensed hunt is to test hunting retrievers afield under actual hunting conditions. Those hunting retrievers that demonstrate desirable hunting abilities will be rewarded with titles and incorporated into a sound-breeding program. The other reward of the program is better hunting retrievers afield during hunting seasons across the country, less lost game, and more enjoyable hunting.
> 
> ...



Now if that is the goal, then it sure seems to me that started would be testing a dog for its hunting ability according to level. Right out of the gate in started you cannot test a retriever for ability under actual hunting conditions because they never have an opportunity for a live bird and have to be trained to pick up birds with toxic smell. I will probably never understand the resistance to shooting flyers in a game that is purposed to test the hunting capabilities of a retriever.

/Paul


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Now your're making the argument that not using flyers in started is ok because people don't really hunt with them. Yet when I look at page 31 of the rules it says this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paul, I've been told that it is due to liability reasons, but don't they still shoot the birds in Upland in HRC? I haven't run an upland test in a number of years, but they used to shoot the birds.

I like the flyers in Junior because they show people the hole(s) in their training and possibly make some inexperienced trainers understand the need for ff.

Anyway, here is something from the HRC rule book that shows that the started dog isn't expected to be quite ready to hunt. I think most of us would think that a dog who doesn't necessarily deliver to hand (started), doesn't necessarily run blinds (started & junior) and isn't necessarily steady (started & junior) isn't really ready to hunt.

"RULES & GUIDELINES *STARTED* HUNT TESTS
(*Revised January 1, 2009)

PURPOSE AND PHILOSOPHY

This hunt test is for Started Hunting Retrievers and Handlers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area. *Judges will look for natural ability rather than trained performance.* The Started Hunt Test is for *young or inexperienced hunting retrievers*. The Started Hunting Retriever *might not have had the experience of a season of hunting or limited exposure to hunting and/or training*. A Started Hunting Retriever should be able to do a simple dove or waterfowl hunt and retrieve game from land and water."

Emphasis added by me.


----------



## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

You can shoot live flyers in HRC I have seen it done.

Please if you are going to bash HRC for not using flyers please start shooting guns in AKC.

They are all just games people choose to play. To each his own.


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

My last HRC HT at Treasure Coast (FL) had live flyers in Seasoned and Finished.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Ken Newcomb said:


> You can shoot live flyers in HRC I have seen it done.
> 
> Please if you are going to bash HRC for not using flyers please start shooting guns in AKC.
> 
> They are all just games people choose to play. To each his own.


 
You mean primer loaded shotgun shells? Cause we do shoot poppers and live loads at the flyers. Of course that is in the field and not at the line but nothing is perfect.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Newcomb said:


> Please if you are going to bash HRC for not using flyers please start shooting guns in AKC.


If I won't be shooting guns in about 16 hours, how are all them ducks supposed to start dropping from the sky for the senior live flier marks? 

Am I confused or is it just me?


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

CBR KAIE said:


> If I won't be shooting guns in about 16 hours, how are all them ducks supposed to start dropping from the sky for the senior live flier marks?
> 
> Am I confused or is it just me?



Ohh, had to edit this one...are you talking about the popper rounds and pointing at the launched birds?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> A Started Hunting Retriever should be able to do a simple dove or waterfowl hunt and retrieve game from land and water."
> 
> Emphasis added by me.


How can a dog hunt if it won't pick up cripples or fresh shot game?

/Paul


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Newcomb said:


> You can shoot live flyers in HRC I have seen it done.
> 
> Please if you are going to bash HRC for not using flyers please start shooting guns in AKC.
> 
> They are all just games people choose to play. To each his own.


Nobody's bashing anything. Discussing practices is not bashing. Sorry if it came across that way. 

/Paul


----------



## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not against HRC at all. I've spent the past year helping get a club started and we just completed our first HT. Yet the one thing I really struggle with is the absulute stance HRC people take on shooting birds. I've heard every excuse out there for why flyer's shouldn't be used.
> 
> /Paul


What absolute stance are you referring to? As has been previously mentioned, HRC allows for the use of fliers if the club chooses to use them. It's not very prevelant but it's far from an absolute no no.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Troy B said:


> What absolute stance are you referring to? As has been previously mentioned, HRC allows for the use of fliers if the club chooses to use them. It's not very prevelant but it's far from an absolute no no.


Well you know, I pointed that out. Wanna know what really pisses people off who are adamant about something pertaining to "their" sport? Use "their" rules against them. Seriously we started an HRC club out here last year, had 3 sets of folks from back east that had run HRC for years. 5 months into the year we lost one of those couples because myself and another trainer dared to suggest we use real birds at training days. It caused the biggest discussions you ever saw. It frankly almost broke the board because emotions on using live birds caused a huge rift among board members. That couple demanded we remove their names from the founding club members, return thier money and nobody has heard from them since. Really sad actually. When the topic of birds came up for our HT, I ordered 2 Jack and Cokes without the Coke and leaned way back in the chair....

/paul


----------



## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well you know, I pointed that out. Wanna know what really pisses people off who are adamant about something pertaining to "their" sport? Use "their" rules against them. Seriously we started an HRC club out here last year, had 3 sets of folks from back east that had run HRC for years. 5 months into the year we lost one of those couples because myself and another trainer dared to suggest we use real birds at training days. It caused the biggest discussions you ever saw. It frankly almost broke the board because emotions on using live birds caused a huge rift among board members. That couple demanded we remove their names from the founding club members, return thier money and nobody has heard from them since. Really sad actually. When the topic of birds came up for our HT, I ordered 2 Jack and Cokes without the Coke and leaned way back in the chair....
> 
> /paul


So an absolute stance by HRC people is one couple?? Pretty big generalization don't you think? I'll give you that flyers in HRC tests aren't common but I think calling it an absolute stance against it is a little extreme.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Troy B said:


> So an absolute stance by HRC people is one couple?? Pretty big generalization don't you think? I'll give you that flyers in HRC tests aren't common but I think calling it an absolute stance against it is a little extreme.


You care to guess how many HRC people i've talked too that had this stance? Its overwhelming. Shall I provide a link to the HRC forum where I asked about this? a large majority were against flyer's. I just don't get it.

/Paul


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I think you need to take in to consideration the number of entries you have if it's a small test with maybe 20 to 30 dogs and you have to ship birds in from out of state at $11 a bird plus $300 to $400 for shipping plus all the cost for judges ect. the club is going to lose money unless it jacks the entry fees way up. I think as long as the birds are in good shape and you have a good supply of them so you don't have to use them over and over I don't have a problem with using frozen birds I've seen ones in good shape that float just fine. Sometimes you have to do what it takes to keep the sport alive not all clubs have a big budget and large entries in tests.


----------



## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

I don't have a problem with it, as long as they were fresh birds when they were frozen and are fully thawed out when used. In fact I recommend it to save money.


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Paul let me go on record as saying I LOVE shot flyers. Without them I can't even come close to replicating the amount of excitement in a test. HRC does allow the use of them although they are rarely used.

As far as a dog not wanting to pick up "gassed" ducks: That is why I force fetched my dog. On the first series of an AKC event there are always dead ducks. They are dispatched with the "gas chamber" or a needle and alcohol. Neither is a good replication of wild birds. My club uses CO2 to kill the ducks. I don't know about other clubs.

I agree that a dogs ability to pick up a cripple should be tested. But how is shooting a flyer testing that ability. My dog has never retrieved a cripple in a hunt test or field trial. The ONLY way to test that ability is with shackled ducks. I have never seen or heard of anyone using these in a test. If someone is using them within a 3 hour drive I will sign up and run.

So your gripe is that HRC is not testing cripple retrieving ability because we are not shooting flyers. But in reality maybe 1 in 100 shot flyers is actually crippled and the one time I saw a cripple in a test the judge called it a no bird. Until someone routinely uses shackled ducks in a test or trial your argument is impotent.
Mark Land


----------



## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

fishduck said:


> ...My dog has never retrieved a cripple in a hunt test or field trial.... Mark Land


LOL....Assuming that you mean that your dog never had the "opportunity" to retrieve a cripple, I would say that you are either 1) only attending HTs or FTs that have expert gunners, or 2) been very lucky!!!

Very first HT I ran my Chelsea in about 20 years ago, she had a cripple to retrieve in both Jr. series. I bet every one of my dogs over the last 20 years have had at least one cripple, if not more, in their AKC careers. They loved the chase!  I remember Echo snatching one cripple in the air!!


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Vicky I will be the first to admit that I haven't been testing/trialing for long. About 2 years so my experience is limited. But so far all of the retrieved cripples my dogs have seen have been in training or hunting situations. They do however retrieve the flapping/quacking ducks to hand LOL. Maybe the shooters have just all been excellent at the events I have attended and by my recollection that has been the case. I can only remember "the chase" at one event and that was called a no bird at the same time the dog was sent because the handler was anticipating "dog" and sent her on the first sound from the judge. My point is that shooting flyers does not normally test a dogs ability to run down a cripple. If you want to do that you are going to have to use shackled ducks which I think is an excellent test of the "cripple factor". I would guess the handlers and gallery would be in an uproar if a judge set up this kind of test. Has anyone ever seen shackled ducks in a licensed trial/test?
Mark Land


----------



## SMS (May 26, 2005)

Fishduck wrote:
Has anyone ever seen shackled ducks in a licensed trial/test?

AKC rules for HT, Chapter 3:
No live bird, or any species of fowl, shall be used in a test while under any form of restraint or physical impairment at any sanctioned, licensed, or member club event for Retrievers.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Paul let me go on record as saying I LOVE shot flyers. Without them I can't even come close to replicating the amount of excitement in a test. HRC does allow the use of them although they are rarely used.
> 
> As far as a dog not wanting to pick up "gassed" ducks: That is why I force fetched my dog. On the first series of an AKC event there are always dead ducks. They are dispatched with the "gas chamber" or a needle and alcohol. Neither is a good replication of wild birds. My club uses CO2 to kill the ducks. I don't know about other clubs.
> 
> ...


A flyer presents many challenges to a dogs ability to do the work. Cripples are just one of many aspects. One I can't remember being mentioned is the control factor when the bird is missed and fly's away. I believe there is a lot missing when all a dog is presented with is dead ducks. Frozen, thawed or fresh, nothing tests a dog like a flyer...

/Paul


----------



## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Let's get something straight. Gassing ducks with Co2, is NOT poisoning the birds. CO2 dissipates the oxygen and the birds go to sleep and die from lack of oxygen. It leaves NO odor. Now early on when people started to gas ducks, some used Carbon Monoxide from the tailpipe of a car, which IS poisonous and DOES leave an odor. But CO2 does not.


----------



## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

SMS said:


> Fishduck wrote:
> Has anyone ever seen shackled ducks in a licensed trial/test?
> 
> AKC rules for HT, Chapter 3:
> No live bird, or any species of fowl, shall be used in a test while under any form of restraint or physical impairment at any sanctioned, licensed, or member club event for Retrievers.


 
EONS ago they were used in sanctioned trials to save $. AKC changed that in the late 70s (?), possibly because some of the birds were not treated properly.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> EONS ago they were used in sanctioned trials to save $. AKC changed that in the late 70s (?), possibly because some of the birds were not treated properly.



And the first wave of chuckleheads made a rule....


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

SMS said:


> Fishduck wrote:
> Has anyone ever seen shackled ducks in a licensed trial/test?
> 
> AKC rules for HT, Chapter 3:
> No live bird, or any species of fowl, shall be used in a test while under any form of restraint or physical impairment at any sanctioned, licensed, or member club event for Retrievers.


Don't know exactly when the rule was changed/added (sometime between my early FT assocation & the late 90s), but I recall as a birdboy years ago having the duty to shackle live ducks for the Memphis Am Ret Club for its FTs at the Shelby Co Penal Farm using strips cut from a white sheet. Maybe it was an early concession to PC concerns or mandated by game & fish agencies. I also recall Memphis also used pheasants for flyers back then in the AA stakes.


----------



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> A flyer presents many challenges to a dogs ability to do the work. Cripples are just one of many aspects. One I can't remember being mentioned is the control factor when the bird is missed and fly's away. I believe there is a lot missing when all a dog is presented with is dead ducks. Frozen, thawed or fresh, nothing tests a dog like a flyer...
> 
> /Paul


Paul I have to agree with all of this. But there are positives and negatives to every venue. Not using flyers doesn't prohibit the testing of a hunting dog. 

I am sorry to hear that shackled ducks are prohibited by rule. They are a valuable addition to my training and I feel are the only way to test a dog on cripples. I wonder what prompted the rule.
Mark Land


----------



## bananawaterlilyjim (Aug 21, 2012)

frozen mallards are available from frost waterfowl trust


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

bananawaterlilyjim said:


> frozen mallards are available from frost waterfowl trust


Looks like the site might have a new sponsor?


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

We do have a relatively new sponsor on RTF. Buettner Farms 

Please see their banner below. They are an excellent supplier of field trial/hunt test birds.

Banana, You've made 3 posts, all bumping duck threads and all spamming. 

[email protected] is my email. We can communicate and find a way for your account to be reactivated. But for now, your account is banned just like the accounts that spam other products. Spammers are in violation of RTF policies and guidelines and are addressed appropriately.

Thanks, Chris


----------



## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

HT Club uses frozen birds....I don't go back. As hot as it usually is here,they just don't hold up. The HRC I run have fresh birds put to sleep with CO2 ,and are in a freezer overnight,unless it is cold out.A couple of clubs used frozen trash ,and guts were flying out by Sunday.Our Field Trial club shoots a few fliers to get us started in Open.


----------



## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Jay Dufour said:


> HT Club uses frozen birds....I don't go back. As hot as it usually is here,they just don't hold up. The HRC I run have fresh birds put to sleep with CO2 ,and are in a freezer overnight,unless it is cold out.A couple of clubs used frozen trash ,and guts were flying out by Sunday.Our Field Trial club shoots a few fliers to get us started in Open.


Jay, we always start the trial with previously frozen fresh birds until we shoot enough flyers


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

For our HRC test we got out a couple of the test dogs and a few gunners at 6am and started throwing and shooting birds. It takes a while to shoot enough birds (about 45 minutes) to run a test. Of course we had to save some for live flyers and Sunday. For AKC hunt tests we do start with some frozen birds from a previous test but we use the dry fluffies from the last series on Saturday and they go home and to the freezer in about 3-4 hours after being shot. And while we don't provide 2 live birds for every entry we do shoot 2 live flyers in every stake, 1 in land series and 1 in water series. We try and pull the frozen ducks out during Saturday but sometimes we just cant tell.
We have noticed that the older the duck is when killed the longer they seem to last. 
I do wonder how other AKC clubs kill the ducks non flyer ducks when they only have one live flyer per stake? 

And I do like this 3+ year old thread has anything changed since it was first posted? Other than Jerry Mann sayng he was going to have field reps check to make sure that 2 live birds were available per entry at the hunt tests.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

If the AKC rules(Standing Recomendations of the RFTAC) are followed there should be plenty of fresh birds......


> 4. That a minimum of two and one-half live flying game birds per dog be made available for use in the Open, Limited All-Age, Special All-Age, Restricted All-Age and Amateur or Owner-Handler Amateur Stakes in any trial carrying championship points and that a minimum of two live birds per dog be made available for use in the Derby and Qualifying Stakes


john


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> For our HRC test we got out a couple of the test dogs and a few gunners at 6am and started throwing and shooting birds. It takes a while to shoot enough birds (about 45 minutes) to run a test. Of course we had to save some for live flyers and Sunday. For AKC hunt tests we do start with some frozen birds from a previous test but we use the dry fluffies from the last series on Saturday and they go home and to the freezer in about 3-4 hours after being shot. And while we don't provide 2 live birds for every entry we do shoot 2 live flyers in every stake, 1 in land series and 1 in water series. We try and pull the frozen ducks out during Saturday but sometimes we just cant tell.
> We have noticed that the older the duck is when killed the longer they seem to last.
> I do wonder how other AKC clubs kill the ducks non flyer ducks when they only have one live flyer per stake?
> 
> And I do like this 3+ year old thread has anything changed since it was first posted? Other than Jerry Mann sayng he was going to have field reps check to make sure that 2 live birds were available per entry at the hunt tests.


Kelly, the thread got bumped by someone wanting to spam a game bird supplier.


----------

