# 2 live birds per entry?



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

What is everyone seeing regarding condition of birds at Hunt Tests? Although AKC requires 2 live birds per entry, I keep hearing that many clubs do not order the required number and use frozen birds from prior tests. A thawed bird on Saturday morning is in real bad shape Sunday afternoon.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

AKC requires that two live birds be AVAILABLE to judges for each stake but leaves it up to the judges whether to use them both.

WRL


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Thanks for that information, but that's not my question.


----------



## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

Neither of the clubs I belong to use frozen birds and have only seen it done once in the past few years here in CO. One of my clubs even "encourages" judges to use 2 flyers for Master level!!! 

I guess as costs on different phases of tests go up, clubs are looking for any savings they can - cheap birds are not a good area to cut back IMHO.


----------



## Mark (Jun 13, 2003)

Put a small piece of tape on the leg of all the previously frozen birds for indentication. These are the first to be discarded when you have built up a good supply of fresh flyers to use.

Mark


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Rotating birds and discarding the bad ones so that you have decent birds on Sunday is a Hun Test Committee issue. Some clubs are better at then others.

I believe in a thread a year or so ago, a judge posted on here complaining about the HT committe taking all the shot flyers from Saturday and saving them for the upcoming FT trial.

So the answer to you question is, it depends.

Most of the events I attended last year (8), the birds were decent on Sunday.

WRL


----------



## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

Their are many factors involved when in comes to the end condition of HT shot ducks. I do not think, from what I have seen, that there is any difference in the condition of birds at a Sunday HT now than there was 15 years ago. Some clubs have never done a good job of drying and caring for Saturday birds, some clubs always do a great job.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

What Gordy said! It also depends on the weather; when the weekend is hot even a club that takes extra steps to take good care of the birds is scrambling by Sunday. You also have to learn after you've put on a few HTs how many birds per entry you'll need. I remember being on the HT committee some years ago with a bunch of other relative novices (back when bird costs were much less than they are today) and ordering the suggested 2 birds per entry. We had what seemed like hundreds of birds left over at the end of the test. Bird costs have risen so much recently I think most clubs are doing a better job of drying off and properly storing their dead birds so they're not rotting/falling apart by the last day.


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I agree with all you have said. Expense continues to be the key issue. I would gladly forgo the tailgate for better birds. I think that handlers should get "reasonable" birds under the conditions present in that Hunt Test. To start out the first series with the memory or go bird thawed pieces of mush is unreasonable in my opinion. Furthermore, to expect JH dogs to pick up that same thawed duck is inexcuseable.
These are just some of the rumors I have heard and was wondering how widespread it was.


----------



## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

If you order two birds per entry you should have plenty of good birds for Sun. . We always dry our birds on Sat. Evening in our bird trailer hung with two large fans on them and vented. We always have dry birds....but we can't control the heat.....we are considering a air conditioner for the trailer too.


----------



## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

Kyle Bertram said:


> If you order two birds per entry you should have plenty of good birds for Sun. . We always dry our birds on Sat. Evening in our bird trailer hung with two large fans on them and vented. We always have dry birds....but we can't control the heat.....we are considering a air conditioner for the trailer too.


You get an AC unit, and some club members probably won't need a hotel room that weekend!


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

In Southern California all the clubs do double junior, double senior and a master as routine. All the clubs shoot a live flyer in the land series and a live flyer in the water series for ALL levels (junior,senior,master) and both days. I am trying to get some of the clubs to shoot a live flyer in all 3 series of master, maybe spring?
The way it is now no dog in junior or senior has to retrieve a duck in the water series that was in the water before it was thrown for that dog. Typically all the birds from Saturday are given away Saturday night except for a few to start senior (blinds) and master 20-30 of the best ducks before any are given away.
Getting gunners to use correct chokes is probably our biggest problem now. Once we explain to gunners blowing ducks apart and shooting the heads off cost the club money they get it though.


----------



## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I can't say for sure, but I have had the feeling this season that I have seen more events start with thawed frozen birds than in the past. It would make sense, given the cost and the shortage around these parts at any price. I have not noticed that the birds are any worse on Sunday than in the past, so clubs are probably following culling those birds ASAP. I have seen it done in the first series, in fact, so that by the second the birds are pretty nice.


----------



## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

It seems to me, clubs that put up a tent for judges to sit under and have the bird dryer under the tent and out of the sun tend to have better birds on sat. afternoon and sunday. I understand that there are somethings that you just cant control so mushy ducks to me is not inexcusable - if your dog is properly FF then they will pick up the bird - they may not like it but they will pick it up and bring it back.


----------



## Lady Hunter (Mar 13, 2003)

At the next hunt test you should be at the equipment shed to help rack the birds so they will dry overnight and be in good shape for the next day. I know my club tries very hard to have good birds at the start of all our tests. Mary Veitch


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I didn't say it was a test I even went to, so it would be hard for me to help them rack birds. I didn't accuse any club, especially yours. Just some rumors I have been hearing.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

We usually shoot our birds before the event, usually cost the club more to keep them alive & feed them. Still we never use them and freeze them fluffy, take them out Fri to thaw & keep cool overnight. As they've been allowed to cool, These bird usually last and stay fluffy longer than the shot flyers. When it's hot, birds that haven't been allowed to cool quickly go to junk, fresh shot or not. So they're mainly frozen birds, but they're very nice fluffy frozen birds. Sat evening birds are collected dried (yes dried and fluffed ), bad birds tossed, then they're placed in trailer to hang, and cool. If needed we'll pull out a couple of bags of fluffies from the freezer, and thaw. 

Still I don't believe bird quality has anything to do with whether they were frozen or live shot, it's how many times the same bird gets retrieved and how those birds are handled through out the day, if you put a bird steward at each stake to fluff and dry you can keep birds very nice for mulitple retrieves, multiple days. If you keep throwing the same wet carcasses over and over they quickly go bad.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I think that the condition of the birds at an AKC licensed event should be of the utmost concern to the registry...........with the blind eye approach to the abuses of the regs relative to the availability of _two live birds per entry _,It does not appear to me that it is.


john


----------



## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Mark said:


> Put a small piece of tape on the leg of all the previously frozen birds for indentication. These are the first to be discarded when you have built up a good supply of fresh flyers to use.
> 
> Mark


What is your secret for keeping your training birds in such fine condition? :barf:


----------



## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

We use all fresh dead birds and have 2 AC units in the equipment building to hand them over night. We do all we can to get JR. fresh birds on Sunday. I've not attended a HT where frozen birds were used to my knowledge.


----------



## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Kyle B said:


> You get an AC unit, and some club members probably won't need a hotel room that weekend!


Uuhhh I would gag. After a HT and FT it's pretty smelly!


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

I think a club that starts out with thawed frozen birds should have to put it in the premium ,and should not have an entry fee that is equal to other clubs that are using freshly shot birds.I have seen these birds hit the ground with a loud thud , and wings still frozen against the body.Entry fees are largely based on bird costs. If the club isn't getting two birds per dog ,and using frozen birds too, that entry fee should be about half the going rate IMO.....Penny pincher regards


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

There are clubs that only pull in 40 to 55 dogs total. It takes a certain number of dogs to break even. They also keep their entry fee's as low as possible ,usually lower than most clubs. Thawed birds are generally in better shape than a shot flyer because sometimes shot flyers get hit pretty bad. Thawed birds if managed properly don't have a mark on them and are very fluffy. They will last just fine for that day,,and if they don't ,,well you discard the bad one weather they are fresh or thawed.
There isn't championship points involved and I have asked the dogs and they could care less. I am more concerned about crappy flyers and crappy throwers of flyers. . Clubs are trying to stay viable and if using a beautiful looking thawed out bird helps them loose less money then I'm all for it.


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

John Kelder said:


> I think a club that starts out with thawed frozen birds should have to put it in the premium ,and should not have an entry fee that is equal to other clubs that are using freshly shot birds.I have seen these birds hit the ground with a loud thud , and wings still frozen against the body.Entry fees are largely based on bird costs. If the club isn't getting two birds per dog ,and using frozen birds too, that entry fee should be about half the going rate IMO.....Penny pincher regards


Sounds great but there are many other significant expenses that go into the entry fee amount. Maybe you should consider that clubs are considering the bird economics (whatever techniques they choose) when determining the entry fees. And to be in compliance with your desires might have to otherwise raise fees.

Further, I would defy the casual trainer to distinguish between fresh killed, cool birds from those which were fresh frozen dry and are then thawed for use. The act of freezing has little to do with a bird's condition or longevity of use compared to fresh dead birds. In fact I would wager that thawed birds if dried and handled properly will last longer than warm, fresh killed birds on hot days in the south.

And in response to the comment that a club "shoots" its birds the night before, why? There are much quicker, less time consuming, less costly & less destructive means of killing birds than by shooting.


----------



## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

The HT regs are very clear. Section 2: "A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
levels." That's not a "suggestion." 

While there is nothing precluding the use of previously frozen birds judges, and handlers, have every right to expect decent birds. Last year as a judge I refused to use the still frozen birds delivered for my Junior test and requested fresh killed birds to supplement the flyers we would be shooting. As a result we had good birds all weekend. I've also run tests when the still cold birds in the first series stank and had - frozen - maggots stuck in the what was left of the feathers. I have, politley, suggested to the club that the practice of using left over training birds is not a good idea. IMO handlers have every right to complain when decent birds are not provided and judges should expect that the club will abide by the guidelines. Judges must also inspect "each bird" and insure that every dog has a decent bird to retrieve whether they started as fresh or recycled. 
It's fortunately not a widespread problem in the tests we've run.


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Math assuming the dogs all pass the first series in junior and senior and the first two series in master
Junior 50 entries = 100 live ducks, 4 retrieves x 50 dogs= 200 retrieves
Senior 50 entries = 100 live ducks, 6 retrieves x 50 dogs = 300 retrieves
Master 50 entries = 100 live ducks, 13 retrieves x 50 dogs= 650 retrieves

junior
Option 1: shoot 1 bird to start test then run test dog, rebird after dog2, 4, 8,16,32 Some birds have been retrieved 6 times by end of 1st series 7 times by end of test if a flyer is shot in both series. 
Option 2: kill 50 birds send out to dead station, shoot live flyer at other station. No rebird requireed Each bird retrieved once in first series and 2nd time in second series.
Option 3 Start with 6 frozen/thawed birds rebird at dog 5,10,20,40 Some birds reused 5 times by end of 1st series and 6 by end of test.


Senior
Option 1: Kill 2 birds to start test, rebird at dog 1,2,4,7,11,17,26,39 Some birds used 9 times by end of 1st series, 11 times by end of test.

Option 2: kill 50 at start of test and shoot flyer, rebird at 25 birds used 1-2 times by end of 1st series, used 1-2 more times in second series. birds used 3-4 times by end of test.

Option 3: start with 6 frozen/thawed Shoot flyer, rebird at 3,7,14,24,39 Some birds used 6 times by end of 1st, 8 times by end of second

Option 4: Use 6 frozen/thawed on blinds only, rebird dead station at 1,2,4,8,17,35 Some birds used 7 times in 1st series, Thawed/frozen used 8 times on blinds only.

Master well expect to see birds used a huge number of times.....


----------



## Mark (Jun 13, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> What is your secret for keeping your training birds in such fine condition? :barf:


You have to condition the dogs to pick up anything at a trial!! My training birds are the ones with the tape on the leg that were discarded first!!


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Nothing in the rules prevents the use of previously frozen birds. Even with 2 birds per dog, there have to be some dead birds to start a test. Rules don't specify how, when or where the dead birds came from. The most common interpretation of the 2 bird rule, relative to AKC events would mean each stake should see 2 flyers (live birds) per event, if your dog is fortunate to finish the event (which in practice rarely happens at most events). The rule has nothing to do with dead birds & where they came from. We all have desires & opinions but clubs must run their events to not only meet the rules but also make sure they can cover incurred expenses within the fees collected. Maybe handlers have an expectation but to say they have "rights" to expect decent birds is to ignore reality. The clubs I know take the steps necessary to provide the best birds possible, both in quality & quantity. But clubs don't raise the birds & sometimes weather & feed costs result in birds that are less than desired. Further, weather & the test set-ups play a significant role in the condition of the available birds over the course of a weekend. Dogs should be trained to p/u birds of all condition (guess someone will complain that crimples are not fair next, notwithstanding the rules) & support clubs to put on the best events they can within the fees they are able to collect.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Granddaddy said:


> Further, I would defy the casual trainer to distinguish between fresh killed, cool birds from those which were fresh frozen dry and are then thawed for use. The act of freezing has little to do with a bird's condition or longevity of use compared to fresh dead birds. In fact I would wager that thawed birds if dried and handled properly will last longer than warm, fresh killed birds on hot days in the south.
> .


X 2 if the birds are bought specifically and stored for the test and not left over training birds, what difference does it make whether they are killed day of or a few days before. As long as they are thawed properly, you will never know the difference, except that cooled birds last longer. Now if they are not thawed properly I can see having a beef with frozen birds, but again that is a club bird stewardship responsibility. Neither Ice cubes nor gutted wet smelly carcasses leave the trailer to be thrown at our tests, and we have much better bird quality than most events in our area, that use entirely live-fresh killed birds, and have wet gooey crap birds by Sat afternoon, which end up getting thrown Sun AM.

I'll take a dry thawed frozen fluffy over a soggy gooey wet used the day previous mess any day, but maybe that's just me


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> What is everyone seeing regarding condition of birds at Hunt Tests? Although AKC requires 2 live birds per entry, I keep hearing that many clubs do not order the required number and use frozen birds from prior tests. A thawed bird on Saturday morning is in real bad shape Sunday afternoon.


My club would never use birds that were not fresh. And in our last MH test entrants were given three flyers. (And lunch)


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> Getting gunners to use correct chokes is probably our biggest problem now. Once we explain to gunners blowing ducks apart and shooting the heads off cost the club money they get it though.


Have a peek at my business card:

HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Nothing in the rules prevents the use of previously frozen birds. Even with 2 birds per dog, there have to be some dead birds to start a test. Rules don't specify how, when or where the dead birds came from. The most common interpretation of the 2 bird rule, relative to AKC events would mean each stake should see 2 flyers (live birds) per event, if your dog is fortunate to finish the event (which in practice rarely happens at most events). The rule has nothing to do with dead birds & where they came from. We all have desires & opinions but clubs must run their events to not only meet the rules but also make sure they can cover incurred expenses within the fees collected. Maybe handlers have an expectation but to say they have "rights" to expect decent birds is to ignore reality. The clubs I know take the steps necessary to provide the best birds possible, both in quality & quantity. But clubs don't raise the birds & sometimes weather & feed costs result in birds that are less than desired. Further, weather & the test set-ups play a significant role in the condition of the available birds over the course of a weekend. Dogs should be trained to p/u birds of all condition (guess someone will complain that crimples are not fair next, notwithstanding the rules) & support clubs to put on the best events they can within the fees they are able to collect.


It's this type of "circumvention of the intent'' mindset that necessitates a more expansive and comprehensive Rule Book..........

It is the intent of the writing that the test simulate as close as possible,a day of hunting in the field, the condition of the birds being intrigal to that end therefore, should be as close as possible to those a dog would encounter retrieving a bird while hunting.... end of story.

john


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

WRL said:


> Rotating birds and discarding the bad ones so that you have decent birds on Sunday is a Hun Test Committee issue. Some clubs are better at then others.
> 
> *I believe in a thread a year or so ago, a judge posted on here complaining about the HT committe taking all the shot flyers from Saturday and saving them for the upcoming FT trial.
> 
> ...



You are correct. That would be me. And I took a beating for standing up for my contestants and the rule book. We are talking about hunt tests, with baby dogs and new handlers in the lower levels--so please don't make crappy birds an issue. They have enough issues just trying to get out of the holding blind!! And there are times when weather and other factors just erode bird condition rapidly, as long as everyone has done everything possible to keep the birds from totally going to pot--well then its an issue that becomes another factor when judging, so judge it fairly. 

I actually agree very much with John!!


----------



## Rick Vaughan (Sep 4, 2012)

_*My club has never used frozen birds...wouldn't think of it! *_


----------



## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Well even the National started the first series with some previously shot roosters from the set up week. Seems if that is good enough for the best of the best of the Retriever world that a potential Junior Hunter could handle a previously used bird for a setup.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Seriously Mike? You are comparing FCs to a junior? Dogs trained to amazing levels to dogs barely FF?


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MikeBoley said:


> Well even the* National started the first series with some previously shot roosters from the set up week*. Seems if that is good enough for the best of the best of the Retriever world that a potential Junior Hunter could handle a previously used bird for a setup.


That's sad to hear...

There was a time in the history of Field Trials, at least around here, when at the end of each day, the game steward removed and disposed of all the dead birds used for testing that day, and started the next day off by having the guns shoot some fresh birds to get the next days testing started.......



john


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

My first hunt test I ever ran, all the birds where confiscated at 7:55 am on Saturday morning leaving the club with Zero birds to run a double junior, double senior, single master (180 total dog enteries over 2 days). The calls went out and people raided their freezers and we scrounged up every training bird from 3 different clubs and dozens of people. We managed to get enough live pigeons for junior and senior and enough chukar for master almost ( a few people had hen pheasant.) I remember listening as they called AKC to tell them they were using pigeons and AKC saying that wasn't permissible and the club president saying that we would use dolkens and bumpers then and AKC responding that pigeons would be ok and to do what they had to to run the test. The birds were not great but you never saw so many people caring and drying the birds. I remember chipping ducks apart that morning so we could get the test going dogs did well and I am proud to have run that test.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> That's sad to hear...
> 
> There was a time in the history of Field Trials, at least around here, when at the end of each day, the game steward removed and disposed of all the dead birds used for testing that day, and started the next day off by having the guns shoot some fresh birds to get the next days testing started.......
> 
> ...


it was before my time with retrievers, but I am told that years back up here at Lake Champlain the Pheasants from the land series Saturday were served at the tailgate party that evening.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> My first hunt test I ever ran, all the birds where confiscated at 7:55 am on Saturday morning leaving the club with Zero birds to run a double junior, double senior, single master (180 total dog enteries over 2 days). The calls went out and people raided their freezers and we scrounged up every training bird from 3 different clubs and dozens of people. We managed to get enough live pigeons for junior and senior and enough chukar for master almost ( a few people had hen pheasant.) I remember listening as they called AKC to tell them they were using pigeons and AKC saying that wasn't permissible and the club president saying that we would use dolkens and bumpers then and AKC responding that pigeons would be ok and to do what they had to to run the test. The birds were not great but you never saw so many people caring and drying the birds. I remember chipping ducks apart that morning so we could get the test going dogs did well and I am proud to have run that test.



that is a great first test memory. and shows how we do all come together when we need to. do you recal why the ducks got snatched? permit issue?


----------



## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Pals said:


> Seriously Mike? You are comparing FCs to a junior? Dogs trained to amazing levels to* dogs barely FF*?



what I was conveying Nancy, is that at the very top of the Sport we use the birds in a very conservation minded manor. I have seen hunt test clubs dispatch many more birds than necessary when good previously used birds were available. Lets be respectful of the animals giving their life for our sport and dispatch as few as possible. After all our dogs are the ultimate conservation tool.
Maybe some of those barely FF dogs need to wait a bit before entering a test.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

While your respect for the life of a duck is admirable, does it carry over to the corps of the duck as well? Does it respect this fine animal tossing it until the meat comes from the bone? Does it respect the horse fly? Choosing a spot to lay its eggs, it’s next generation of maggots. Only to be tossed from a winger and then covered with dog slobber and run cross a meadow!


----------



## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Ken, the respect goes to the prudent use of a resource. While not all used birds are equal in quality I dont believe that a trial or a test needs to use more live birds than necessary. I know of the condition of used birds Nancy was mentioning. Having judged for same club. Birds were excellent. Those fresh thawed birds will last longer than a fresh dispatched bird on a warm day. You learn this when you train in the Texas heat.


----------



## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> I agree with all you have said. Expense continues to be the key issue. I would gladly forgo the tailgate for better birds. I think that handlers should get "reasonable" birds under the conditions present in that Hunt Test. To start out the first series with the memory or go bird thawed pieces of mush is unreasonable in my opinion. Furthermore, to expect JH dogs to pick up that same thawed duck is inexcuseable.
> These are just some of the rumors I have heard and was wondering how widespread it was.


That's really big of you Tom to give up the tailgate. How about joining a club, working a HT and find out how much the club members work so you can sit in the gallery, go to the tailgate and bitch. Then you wouldn't have to worry about rumors, you would know first hand....


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

SamLab1 said:


> That's really big of you Tom to give up the tailgate. How about joining a club, working a HT and find out how much the club members work so you can sit in the gallery, go to the tailgate and bitch. Then you wouldn't have to worry about rumors, you would know first hand....


Tom does give his time to clubs he's not run his dogs when he wanted to in order to help out a club by judging


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

MikeBoley said:


> Ken, the respect goes to the prudent use of a resource. While not all used birds are equal in quality I dont believe that a trial or a test needs to use more live birds than necessary. I know of the condition of used birds Nancy was mentioning. Having judged for same club. Birds were excellent. Those fresh thawed birds will last longer than a fresh dispatched bird on a warm day. You learn this when you train in the Texas heat.


No Mike you do not know what happened that day, you were not in my flight, you were not judging with me. Don't you dare assume you know anything about that weekend. If you want to publicly air what was going on--lets have at it. I have nothing but respect for our animals, including the ones we shoot. So please go spin that crap somewhere else. AND I suggest you go back and read the original thread. This is about hunt tests, where it specifically says in the rule book that two FRESH(Live) birds will be provided for each dog. End. Of. Story.


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Pals said:


> No Mike you do not know what happened that day, you were not in my flight, you were not judging with me. Don't you dare assume you know anything about that weekend. If you want to publicly air what was going on--lets have at it. I have nothing but respect for our animals, including the ones we shoot. So please go spin that crap somewhere else. AND I suggest you go back and read the original thread. This is about hunt tests, where it specifically says in the rule book that *two FRESH birds *will be provided for each dog. End. Of. Story.


Actually the rules don't say two "fresh" birds. In fact the rules say nothing about fresh birds. The regulations state that two "live" birds are to be available for use for dogs at all test levels at the discretion of the judges. And if judges determine not to shoot those two birds as flyers per entry, then the judges are left with using the available dead birds for their set-ups.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Granddaddy said:


> Actually the rules don't say two "fresh" birds. In fact the rules say nothing about fresh birds. The regulations state that two "live" birds are to be available for use for dogs at all test levels at the discretion of the judges. And if judges determine not to shoot those two birds as flyers per entry, then the judges are left with using the available dead birds for their set-ups.



but a club / test committee taking that choice away from the judges...
taking a fresh kilt bird from a set up to use another day....
will tend to rub a judge the wrong way, 
so they say;-)


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Granddaddy said:


> Actually the rules don't say two "fresh" birds. In fact the rules say nothing about fresh birds. The regulations state that two "live" birds are to be available for use for dogs at all test levels at the discretion of the judges. And if judges determine not to shoot those two birds as flyers per entry, then the judges are left with using the available dead birds for their set-ups.



David~ you are right, 2 live birds. And when a club gives you frozen birds from a FT stake 3 weeks earlier, birds that were falling apart, as a judge I want the 2 live birds. We had a flyer station, the guys did a great job. We wanted to use those birds for our next dead bird. We were not allowed to do that, instead we were given the frozen birds. Not only was I not allowed to use the 2 live birds the contestants paid for--my test was stopped twice by a club member and freshly killed birds were taken out of the bag at the dead bird station~in the middle of us trying to run a test. How would you feel Dave?? Or anyone judging? Do you want birds that are blue with skin showing through, rotting as the dogs pick them up or do you want to use the fresh, live birds that you just killed? I know what I saw, I know what I handled, I know the dogs were not thrilled with the birds and I sure wasn't. In all the years I've run and judged, I have never had this happen. And just for the record: some of the frozen ducks were ok, the majority were not. So if my having a fit, getting upset and standing up for the handlers after all that makes me a bad judge or a bitch. So be it.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

MikeBoley said:


> Ken, the respect goes to the prudent use of a resource. While not all used birds are equal in quality I dont believe that a trial or a test needs to use more live birds than necessary. I know of the condition of used birds Nancy was mentioning. Having judged for same club. Birds were excellent. Those fresh thawed birds will last longer than a fresh dispatched bird on a warm day. You learn this when you train in the Texas heat.


Actually mike, that might be your PERCEPTION but its inaccurate. Frozen and thawed"flesh" decays and breaks down something like 5 times faster than "cooled" or "freshly killed" mammals. If you don"t believe this, you can take it up withthe Feds. They do research on that type of stuff all the time(some of it for tracking serial killers). They have a "body farm" that they do all sorts of research at when it comes to decay.


----------



## Mark (Jun 13, 2003)

I shouldnt put words in Mike's mouth but. Fresh shot flyers on a very hot day do not cool and thus tend to stink quickly, (unless you proactively take them out of the field and put them in a fridge / freezer to cool them). Recently thawed birds start out cool so tend to take longer than those hot fresh shot flyers to start to decay.

Mark


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

SamLab1 said:


> That's really big of you Tom to give up the tailgate. How about joining a club, working a HT and find out how much the club members work so you can sit in the gallery, go to the tailgate and bitch. Then you wouldn't have to worry about rumors, you would know first hand....


You're right. I'm new to this sport. I need to join some clubs, start gunning some, start judging a little and get to know the game before I complain. One thing I won't do is hide behind a screen name.


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Sounds like a fun experiment to do to me, Unfortunately it may have to wait 7-8 months for warmer weather to try..I know when it is below freezing then it becomes a mute point. I will need two ducks of same weight and sex and plumage, I will need to kill one and then freeze it after an appropriate time (time from shot then retrieved, then hung then back to camp, then taken home then frozen much like a normal trial duck). Then after say two weeks or more it will have to be thawed as it would for use in a test/trial. then I will need to shoot one at about 9 am and retrieved and rotatated into the dead duck station, and retrieved the same number of times as the thawed duck over a course of the day say 10 times over 1st day, then compare, then hang over night in club trailer, then use both of them again the next day and compare, hang one more night and use a third day and compare at end. (third day is for field trial info). I will need a thermometer to moniter temp of ducks on first day and maybe next morning, expect the temp to be the same for both ducks after that..

will also need to recruit several people to compare the ducks in a blind study.. for all three days. Will also try and get info on which duck is easier to find/retrieve with several dogs...

Any other thoughts on how to make it a better comparison?


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

What is the judge to do with the two live birds per dog that are provided by way of "using" them ?.

Since schakeling them for use in some way or another in the test is prohibited by the rules, the judges choices are limited to using them as Fliers, or dispatching them humanely for use at the dead bird stations. 

It is obvious to me that the *two bird rule *was instituted so that there would be enough birds available for use, so fresh killed birds could be used in the testing/judging at all stations.


john


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

john fallon said:


> What is the judge to do with the two live birds per dog that are provided by way of "using" them ?.
> 
> Since schakeling them for use in some way or another in the test is prohibited by the rules, the judges choices are limited to using them as Fliers, or dispatching them humanely for use at the dead bird stations.
> 
> ...


Or say stacking crates of live birds and running the dogs past them on a blind....


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

WRL said:


> Actually mike, that might be your PERCEPTION but its inaccurate. Frozen and thawed"flesh" decays and breaks down something like 5 times faster than "cooled" or "freshly killed" mammals. If you don"t believe this, you can take it up withthe Feds. They do research on that type of stuff all the time(some of it for tracking serial killers). They have a "body farm" that they do all sorts of research at when it comes to decay.


Hmm When I go Deer Hunting we let the Deer hang and semi-freeze overnight before heading home, the Deer remains cool and unspoiled for the duration of the trip usually 2 days. If we were to kill one the day we leave and are unable to let nature cool it we have to stop get bags of dry ice. It's a real pain to transport, as a fresh killed animal releases heat from the bones-organ into the meat, trapped in the body cavity, without chilling we can expect it to be rank by 12 hrs, if it is not opened up and cooled completely. I have had a couple of pretty pungent experiences with mulitple types of game animals to consider this fact. I'll keep a cool frozen-chilled deer-duck-quail-dove etc. in my truck way longer than a fresh kill, I'll be able to eat that chilled-frozen bird a lot later than a fresh kill as well, just personal experience talking here. In hot weather a duck can go rancid on a game belt in a few hours, if not cleaned or chilled.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Hmm When I go Deer Hunting we let the Deer hang and semi-freeze overnight before heading home, the Deer remains cool and unspoiled for the duration of the trip usually 2 days. If we were to kill one the day we leave and are unable to let nature cool it we have to stop get bags of dry ice. It's a real pain to transport, as a fresh killed animal releases heat from the bones-organ into the meat, trapped in the body cavity, without chilling we can expect it to be rank by 12 hrs, if it is not opened up and cooled completely. I have had a couple of pretty pungent experiences with mulitple types of game animals to consider this fact. I'll keep a cool frozen-chilled deer-duck-quail-dove etc. in my truck way longer than a fresh kill, I'll be able to eat that chilled-frozen bird a lot later than a fresh kill as well, just personal experience talking here. In hot weather a duck can go rancid on a game belt in a few hours, if not cleaned or chilled.


You even note in your post that its not really "frozen" but is mostly "cooled". Are you saying you hang your deer in a freezer? 

Cooling is different than FREEZING. FREEZING begins the break down of tissue.

As I stated in my post, fresh shot or COOLED ducks will last longer.

But if you want to take it up with the forensic pathologists at the FBI, go for it. Guess we don't need scientists, we'll just say "huntemup said so" .

WRL


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Hmm, I have some mixed feelings and I agree with both sides of this argument. 

A duck shot and cleaned immediately is much easier to pluck and tear open the skin. A duck which is shot in the morning and has cooled completely is tough to pluck and skin at the end of the day. When you're running a trial and it's 80 degrees outside with 90% humidity, there isn't an easy answer to keep things to everyones' liking. Fresh shot ducks from the beginning of a hot day look worse than those which have been used 3-4 times training and re-frozen sometimes. 

Hot duck= easy pluck
Cold duck = no luck


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> Or say stacking crates of live birds and running the dogs past them on a blind....


Yep, that's a good one.

I'm going to be 70 my next birthday and hunted quite a few of those years,,,,,and you know, for the life of me, I cannot recall EVER coming across a stack of bird crates full of birds in any of the fields I have hunted. 

Like I said though, I'm getting old; so maybe I did and I just don't remember 

john


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Yep, that's a good one.
> 
> I'm going to be 70 my next birthday and hunted quite a few of those years,,,,,and you know, for the life of me, I cannot recall EVER coming across a stack of bird crates full of birds in any of the fields I have hunted.
> 
> ...



Well, not a bird crate exactly but, a pile of birds. I've ran my dog right in front of another person's layout blind with a stack of geese next to it many times. Multiple layout blinds. Sometimes we have our layout blinds up to 30 yards apart. Each person stacks their birds to keep count of limits. Wind during goose set ups is always at your back so they'll land into a headwind coming towards you. Often it's easiest, safest and has the least amount of distraction having the dog in the layout blind at the end of the set-up. 

If I'm on the left string and a person on the far right knocks a bird down and it sails out further right the dog must pass downwind of multiple piles of birds and multiple layouts. It's a 100% true hunting scenario minus the plastic crate and live birds but, scent and birds? yup. It happens. Just have to get out and hunt fields more often.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> Or say stacking crates of live birds and running the dogs past them on a blind....





Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Well, not a bird crate exactly but, a pile of birds. I've ran my dog right in front of another person's layout blind with a stack of geese next to it many times. Multiple layout blinds. Sometimes we have our layout blinds up to 30 yards apart. Each person stacks their birds to keep count of limits. Wind during goose set ups is always at your back so they'll land into a headwind coming towards you. Often it's easiest, safest and has the least amount of distraction having the dog in the layout blind at the end of the set-up.
> 
> If I'm on the left string and a person on the far right knocks a bird down and it sails out further right the dog must pass downwind of multiple piles of birds and multiple layouts. *It's a 100% true hunting scenario minus the plastic crate and live birds but*, scent and birds? yup. It happens. Just have to get out and hunt fields more often.


It's a 100% true hunting scenario minus the plastic crate and live birds , and if your aunt had ................

With two live birds per dog entered available, there would be more than enough birds available so that a bag of dead fresh kills could be used which would more appropriately fill the bill in your scenario.


Again........" I cannot recall EVER coming across a stack of bird crates full of birds in any of the fields I have hunted." 


john


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Pals said:


> David~ you are right, 2 live birds. And when a club gives you frozen birds from a FT stake 3 weeks earlier, birds that were falling apart, as a judge I want the 2 live birds. We had a flyer station, the guys did a great job. We wanted to use those birds for our next dead bird. We were not allowed to do that, instead we were given the frozen birds. Not only was I not allowed to use the 2 live birds the contestants paid for--my test was stopped twice by a club member and freshly killed birds were taken out of the bag at the dead bird station~in the middle of us trying to run a test. How would you feel Dave?? Or anyone judging? Do you want birds that are blue with skin showing through, rotting as the dogs pick them up or do you want to use the fresh, live birds that you just killed? I know what I saw, I know what I handled, I know the dogs were not thrilled with the birds and I sure wasn't. In all the years I've run and judged, I have never had this happen. And just for the record: some of the frozen ducks were ok, the majority were not. So if my having a fit, getting upset and standing up for the handlers after all that makes me a bad judge or a bitch. So be it.


Easy to say after the fact, I know, but it seems you missed your opportunity to insist on good birds (or at least birds fit enough for the test) by not declaring as the judge that the birds were not fit for use in your test & having the marshal get fit birds. I'd say you would have a better position of leverage with the club by culling the unfit birds & declaring you needed additional fit birds before preceding with the test rather than trying to determine if the club purchased enough birds per the regs. I'm not defending the club or the marshals or whoever wanted the dead flyers but as the judge you can insist on birds fit for your test (especially when someone seems to be providing unfit birds when fit birds are otherwise available). I don't think you can insist on the dead flyers necessarily but I think you could required fit birds (and there is some distance between dead flyers and unfit birds in most cases).


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Thomas D said:


> You're right. I'm new to this sport. I need to join some clubs, start gunning some, start judging a little and get to know the game before I complain. One thing I won't do is hide behind a screen name.


yeah , me too !!! too funny Tom  What is really the question ?? 2 live birds per entry . The intent of that rule is clear .To provide each dog running with a recently shot bird. To further elaborate on the intent , and to side with John Fallon , no bird crates , no gas chambers. A shot bird is what the dog is to retrieve. hence the fresh blood (this is a blood sport) ragged wing , etc. Because thats real world retrieving . Not everyone at a tower shoot has an open choke ,some times the bird is right on top of the blind b4 you see it , etc ... If I may take the liberty Tom and John , On our behalf , old school regards.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> It's a 100% true hunting scenario minus the plastic crate and live birds , and if your aunt had ................
> 
> With two live birds per dog entered available, there would be more than enough birds available so that a bag of dead fresh kills could be used which would more appropriately fill the bill in your scenario.
> 
> ...


No hunt test really replicates hunting but, the concepts however are designed to do so. Look, HRC might sit on a plastic bucket but, when I got hunting I take a chair if I need a seat to sit on. Lol


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Yep, that's a good one.
> 
> I'm going to be 70 my next birthday and hunted quite a few of those years,,,,,and you know, for the life of me, I cannot recall EVER coming across a stack of bird crates full of birds in any of the fields I have hunted.
> 
> ...


Absolutely correct John, however you asked what else the judges could do in a test or a trial with ducks besides shoot as live flyers or dispatch and use at dead station. I have run past many a stack of crates with ducks in it at tests but maybe I don't remember so well anymore either.  running a blind is a test of control and running past crates of live ducks really does test control, though as a scenario it really is dumb, but I don't care what the judges set up as long as it is not dangerous, it's just a stupid game we play with dogs..


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Every time the dog picks up a flier it runs past a stack of crates. What's the problem?


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

We appear to be going off topic but while here I would like to make one comment on test design.


Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best


john


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

john fallon said:


> We appear to be going off topic but while here I would like to make one comment on test design.
> 
> 
> Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best
> ...


Poor nose is grounds for elimination, A dog that is out of control or refuses to follow comands/directions/casts is going to be much worse in both the field and a test/trial. I don't think a dog that stops and hunts the 20 odd previous falls on the way out on a blind would be one I would want to hunt with... Blinds should be a test of control and perserverence, if you are using a blind to test Nose on a dog I think that is counter productive. Now running a blind into a trail is a real test of both nose and control, but that is more a NAHRA type test or a real hunting situation and not an AKC type test..


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> We appear to be going off topic but while here I would like to make one comment on test design.
> 
> 
> Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best
> ...


What about back in the days when you started hunting and they still used live decoys? ehehehee


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> ..........Poor nose is grounds for elimination, and tests designed to reward the dog that does not honor its nose are counter productive at best
> 
> 
> john


what I wonder, now and then, when a dog runs 49th is it still marking the bird to get to the area of fall or using it's nose and the dragback?


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> What about back in the days when you started hunting and they still used live decoys? ehehehee


when John started hunting????
I am told the year after he took his hunter ed. class, gunpowder was invented :snipersmile:


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> when John started hunting????
> I am told the year after he took his hunter ed. class, gunpowder was invented :snipersmile:


Come on Ken, Chinese invent gunpowder in the BC times didn't they? Fallon can't be that old. I'd say cartridges were invented that year.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Come on Ken, Chinese invent gunpowder in the BC times didn't they? Fallon can't be that old. I'd say cartridges were invented that year.



John's first huntin' Dawg way so cool they built a statue, still stands it does!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> John's first huntin' Dawg way so cool they built a statue, still stands it does!


And his shot gun shells were made of brass...


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Actually, it was the shotgun that was made of " brass.".....Gunmetal, also known as red brass in the United States, is a type of bronze – an alloy of copper, tin, and zinc. Originally used chiefly for making guns

john


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I thought John's first gundog was a dinosaur back when you could hunt terradactyls.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> I thought John's first gundog was a dinosaur back when you could hunt terradactyls.


Force fetching one of them would be a real nightmare. No ears! 

Can't wait for the video regards,


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Force fetching one of them would be a real nightmare. No ears!
> 
> Can't wait for the video regards,


Definately a toe-hitch back then..


----------



## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Did Chessiesaurs stink too? Probably related to Velocoraptors.

Oops forgot my smilie


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> You're right. I'm new to this sport. I need to join some clubs, start gunning some, start judging a little and get to know the game before I complain. One thing I won't do is hide behind a screen name.


yeah Tom join some clubs, maybe judge a few test, or at least buy a damn dog! :lol:

BTW - I hear Fallon is so old his birth certificate is expired


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> yeah Tom join some clubs, maybe judge a few test, or at least buy a damn dog! :lol:
> 
> BTW - I hear Fallon is so old his birth certificate is expired


Haha!! That's funny right there!


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

70 is the new 50.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...K9KcHj0gGdq4F4&sqi=2&ved=0CFoQ9QEwCA&dur=3389

john


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Touche John. Well played. 

This round to our kinder gentler Mr. Fallon.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pals said:


> Touche John. Well played.
> 
> This round to our* kinder gentler *Mr. Fallon.


..................but that other guy aint too far away

john


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

That "Suddenly Senior" article was pretty funny.


----------

