# Why not Water Dog Book



## bmvbrfd (Jan 3, 2009)

I am new and don't know much but I read Water Dog and have the movie. It seems like alot of people prefer other methods of training. What do ya'll recomend. My dog is just started and not too far along so I would like to get all the input I can......and if anyone wants to sell me a book or dvd I am really trying to make a good hunting dog.

Bryan Villavaso
Zachary Louisiana


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

I can't speak for Water Dog but The 10 Minute Retriever is excellent for us beginners!


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## blacklabalvin (Jul 26, 2008)

i never saw anything wrong with it. It just seems like some, but not all of the information is out dated and it doesn't really go into depth on some concepts. Like the part on the single and double tee, the angle back, and the water handling. He'll show you how he does it with that one dog and that's it. It's a good start, but I wouldn't make it my one and only resource.


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## Bklk (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm just a beginner actually not even a beginner because i will be getting a "Chopper" pup in June. I've been reading and studying on this subject for the last three years preparing for my dog. Have been to a couple of Hunt Test and talked with people. I have read Water Dog, Game Dog and James Lamb Free's book. I have chosen the Smartworks system to follow. I think anything you read, can and will help enhance any program you go with as long as you don't try to cannibalize the program you pick. Just thought from someone who don't know anything.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

You won't get a nice, good handling retriever you'd be proud to take anywhere from Water Dog.


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## DeltaCottonBoy12 (Mar 2, 2009)

I also just finished water dog. The book is the foundation of MANY current books. Anyone can take baseball and name it wagon wheel and call it better. I'm trying to figure out how many people have actually TRIED the techniques from the book themselves and what their finished product was. I keep hearing the book is old and out dated but Water Dog comes up in most conversations about training. 

His whole philosophy is about handling the dog. The whole book is about having a dog that is handled well on and off the water. I agre that not everything is written in bold print, here do this then do this then do this, but he gives you a goal and up to you to train your dog. 

Now if you have PERSONALLY tried water dog, please comment on your finished dog or why you put the book down and switched. No more "I heard from this pro I know".


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

When I first started in NAHRA I tried training by the Wolter's books. Wolter's had no clue beyond what he was told and what Tar did. Wolter's was no help if your dog did something else than what he wrote about. I was way disappointed in his product and the dogs it would turn out.

Who trained Wolter's dogs when he got past Tar? ecollar?


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## bmvbrfd (Jan 3, 2009)

THANKS for the feedback. What do you recomend for my next book (dvd) to read (or watch). It seems like I keep hearing about sound beginings. What kind of stuff is coverd in that series.


Bryan Villavaso
Zachary Louisiana


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34410&highlight=training+books

http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35080&highlight=training+books


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## scott2012 (Feb 16, 2009)

Many years ago before NAHRA and HRC even existed, many folks were using WaterDog as a means to own a hunting dog...not test dog...that would handle and bring back the game an average....again average.. weekend hunter could own. It was written for the guy who had limited time and money. I used his methods for many years and have had several fine hunting dogs who could easily handle and retrieve ducks for me down on the coast. But as others have written, when you move into a testing format, this book is not what you will want. Smartworks is a great way to go for the NAHRA, HRC, or AKC events. Best of luck!

Scott


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I used Water Dog to train my first dog. That dog was limited by both training technique and training tools. The e-collar is an invaluable training tool. It makes the dog clearly understand what it is doing wrong because of timing. By the time you run out and correct a dog he no longer knows what he is being corrected for. Water Dog will leave you in the dark on how to train with an e-collar.

It is a good book and worth your time to read. Baseball is 3 handed casting or mini T in most of the current programs. Wagon wheel is a lining drill to make the dog proficient at taking initial lines. I don't think it is even mentioned in Water Dog although it has been years since I read it. Now I follow the Lardy program Total Retriever Training and would reccomend Smartworks by Evan Graham.

Check the classifieds and buy a copy of one of these systems and you will see all that has evolved since Water Dog.

Mark L.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Waterdog was the first book I read and was the information I used from 8 weeks until I started Hillmann at about 13 weeks. Now granted you do very little during this time but you do introduce the pup to learning and that learning is a way of life. Even though I am on to a more modern training method I still refer back to information I gained when reading Waterdog. I think the book is great but would not solely rely on it if you want more than a good ol' hunt dog. I have a buddy of mine who used that book and that book only and he has a fine hunting dog who has a great base and could be advanced should he decide to go that route.

My advice and take it for what it is worth (a nobody in the retriever world that has accomplished nothing more than teaching a pup how to sit) is to ignore these people who say the book should be thrown in the trash or "Wolter's had no clue beyond what he was told and what Tar did" and read it if you have access to it. I guarantee you learn something. Retriever trainers are like everyone else. Any given person is doing it the right way and you are wrong. Case in point, I currently have one training method that says "never restrain a pup from retrieving" while another training method says specifically to restrain the pup so he becomes a good marker. Both of these methods (trainers) are very accomplished and know their $#@% but they just disagree.

Anyway, I had some free time so I thought I would respond.

Jason


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

I used it for 5 dogs and all turned out to be very good hunters and citizens-I have moverd on to some new materials that are perhaps more timely as trsaining evolves IE 10 Minute Retriever- Dobbs/ Tri Tronics book- Fowl Dawgs DVD.--It is now very fashionable to mock/critize all of Wolter's work BUT I think he did more to further pup training than many so called current Guru's who are in it for the $$ which is OK by me except when they say their method is the only one- some forums around today are more like paid infomercials--Give a drill a new name- make it more difficult and buallah-it's the mircale cure for all pup problems real and imagined.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

DeltaCottonBoy12 said:


> The book is the foundation of MANY current books. Anyone can take baseball and name it wagon wheel and call it better.


This statement demonstrates the real value in obtaining _information_ as well as mere _opinion_. For example, the above comment clearly descends from insufficient information. Baseball is an old school version of T work, and has no relationship to Wagon Wheel drills, other than a loose one to 8-handed casting (AKA Wagon Wheel Casting drill).

The point is that there are reasons for methods to change and advance, and many of the people who make those changes have something significant invested in the results. You've done the right thing by inquiring. Keep looking, and check out the various methods for yourself. You won't find good trainers endorsing timelines or schedules. You'll see many more contrasts, the more you look!

Good luck,
Evan


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Things change, e-collars develop, many thousands of well trained retrieves come from other developments. WD is not a bad book....for the time it came out. It was the first book I ever used and still use some of the stuff for up to 8 weeks.
Keep in mind that LP's use to be THE source for music...then 8 tracks, cassetts, CD...MP3's........ Things change and better stuff comes from it. Gotta keep up to date. 
BTW- how many FC/MH/HRC... do you think RW trained??? How many do you think Lardy et al have trained? 
Just saying


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

DeltaCottonBoy12 said:


> I also just finished water dog. The book is the foundation of MANY current books. Anyone can take baseball and name it wagon wheel and call it better. I'm trying to figure out how many people have actually TRIED the techniques from the book themselves and what their finished product was. I keep hearing the book is old and out dated but Water Dog comes up in most conversations about training.
> 
> His whole philosophy is about handling the dog. The whole book is about having a dog that is handled well on and off the water. I agre that not everything is written in bold print, here do this then do this then do this, but he gives you a goal and up to you to train your dog.
> 
> Now if you have PERSONALLY tried water dog, please comment on your finished dog or why you put the book down and switched. No more "I heard from this pro I know".


I have been train retrievers for 5 1/2 years. I think Waterdog is a good starter book for the average to good hunting dog. I used Waterdog for both Dora and Lily. With no past HT experience and retriever knowledge I was able to put MH titles on both. Lily got her MH at 2 1/2 yrs old. The basics are in the book. Now, if your thinking of going to the next level I recommend Lardy or Evan. There are things in the book I do not agree with today but they did work for my first pupose of training a good hunting companion. 
Joe Dutro


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## DeltaCottonBoy12 (Mar 2, 2009)

scott2012 said:


> Many years ago before NAHRA and HRC even existed, *many folks were using WaterDog as a means to own a hunting dog...not test dog...that would handle and bring back the game* an average....again average.. weekend hunter could own. It was written for the guy who had limited time and money. *I used his methods for many years and have had several fine hunting dogs who could easily handle and retrieve ducks* for me down on the coast. But as others have written, *when you move into a testing format, this book is not what you will want.* Smartworks is a great way to go for the NAHRA, HRC, or AKC events. Best of luck!
> 
> Scott


now we are getting somewhere... great post by everyone. good information.. no more "i heard from daffy duck that Water Dog taught dogs to heel between my legs".. 

The information in the book is more for a weekend meathead who chases ducks with his buddy from down yonder. 

*So i would say the most important thing someone should clarify before they ask about water dog is their intentions with their pup.* Do they want to hunt on the weekends and have a pup who will get the job done ( like me ) or do they want to do test trials and hunt tests and go for gold? This is a very important factor that is sometimes argued but never clarified..

I'm sure they are many great products on the market. hell the books like _____ for dummies is a huge seller. they have a retrievers for dummies and its a good seller. People will buy what they think is the easiest way to learn. For some its______ for dummies and others like you and I its reading detailed books and absorbing information for later use.

alright i feel like progress is being made...


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Howard N said:


> You won't get a nice, good handling retriever you'd be proud to take anywhere from Water Dog.


I've never read "Water Dog," but its follow-on "Game Dog" (waterfowl and upland) was my only guide, beyond some pointing dog experience, when I trained my first retriever, and his handling was nothing I'd be embarrassed by in any hunting or HRC testing (as opposed to trialing) crowd. That's not to suggest it's the best instruction out there, just that I found it both doable and serviceable.

Believe that "doable" part probably appeals to a lot of folks who are put off by current mainstream "programs" that read like complex engineering texts.


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## clint (Aug 4, 2006)

all training videos are great. water dog was my first video. it is easy for beginners to understand. i think a thing alot of people look past is getting the right video for the level of trainer. for instance if you go out and get danny farmer and judy ayacock's video problems and solutions to train your first dog you will be lost, the training techniques will be over your head, and they will be using terms (hook the gun) that you don't understand. but if you started out with their basics video it would be more suitable for you! for beginners i like the danny farmer/judy ayacock basics. I also like chris akin's new dvd duck dog! but don't go get the advaced videos for a beginning dog. water dog has probably helped train more successful hunting dogs than any other video out there.,

good luck!,
clint mann
[email protected]
www.hometownretrievers.com


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

If I was just starting out and was going to buy only one series of books and videos I would go with Smartworks. However I have Lardy, Farmer/Aycock, and several other videos on different subjects and they all bring something a little different to the table. Develop a nice library from a few different programs. I just borrowed the Smartworks books from a friend and am going to purchase those for myself to go along with the videos so I can make notes in them. There is a lot of pretty good stuff out there right now giving lots of choices, something you couldn't say 10+ years ago. 

Find a club near you and borrow some stuff to find out what you like then get your own copy.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Bryan,

I think I can be of some local assistance. 

I'm a member of Amite River Hunting Retriever Club, based in Baton Rouge. We have several members in Zachary, with most members living in the BR metro area. I'm out in Prairieville, down in Ascension, but I regularly train on the north side of town, around Ethel and Zachary.

I have an old copy of WaterDog that I pull out occasionally for a walk down memory lane. I got it from my father back in the 80's and trained a couple of meat dogs with it, who I remember fondly. They were good enough to pick up my birds back then and we spent many a happy day in the rice fields chasing feathers without a care in the world...and we were content.

Time marches on and fast forward to 2009. I would advise you to look at another program if you want to advance your dog. There are several, such as Mike Lardy's material or Evan Graham's, etc. I'm not going to get into a discussion of which to use, although I have my preferences.

You're welcome to give me a call. I will PM you my cell # and we can dog chat if you want. You're also welcome to come out and see the dogs run. I will be training this weekend, probably in South B.R. and you can hang out, watch the dogs, ask questions after we train, etc. You will be able to see dogs train that are a wide spectrum of experience, from 10 month old puppies to Grand Hunting Retriever Champions.

Also, Amite River HRC is getting ready to hold it's spring hunt test, up at DCI in Jackson, which is very close to you. You're invited to come on out and see some of the various levels of dog work. We also have a nice tailgate with jambalaya and cold beverages. I will be marshaling and running a Finished test on Saturday (March 21) and judging a Started test on Sunday (March 22).

Kevin (aka Cat Squirrel)


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

The retriever world has went thru some serious changes since WATER DOG was written . At the time it was published and for quite a few years after , Wolter's books were the "source" for training.
My first 2 or 3 dogs were trained with those books ,and at the time I was happy with the results .But that was then ,and this is now .
Consider other sources for your retriever education .But , it never hurts to have a "Wolters " book on the shelf.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I wont put down any book written on dog training, but any dog trainer worth his/her salt has read Water Dog. No one book or DVD or program is going to teach you how to train a dog( with all due respect to Graham,Lardy,Quinn,Dahl,Dobbs,Farmer,J.Aycock,Free and Wolters) a book is a good reference point and source of info and philosophy,what you do with that info and how you apply those principals is what separates us from one another

There is only one book that is the standard and that is THE BIBLE and even that has many versions and interpretations...


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## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

IMO,I feel for the inexperianced trainer,it is important to read how the early trainers such as Morgan,Walters,etc trained back in the day.It will help understand how training has evolved,and help better understand the methods and principles of training today's retrievers.

Bryan.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Wolters never trained a dog to do anything successfully, except pose for pictures in the book. All those years he preached about not using a collar etc etc and when his last dog flipped him off, he sent the dog to a collar trainer. Practice what you preach????

Wolters was a good BSer but he was not a dog trainer. The entire series of his books is good for replacing the Charmin in the outhouse and little else.


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

When I first started out and didn't have a clue what I was doing or what I wanted to do with my dog even, I bought Water Dog. I don't recall a lot of what the book says but I seem to remember it was a little harsh in his methods of teaching. Once he got into advanced stuff it was really hard for me to follow and I don't think I even finished reading the book to be honest. 

Enter dog number 2. Sound Beginnings is great. I'm not saying abandon Water Dog. But for puppy development, Jackie does an amazing job introducing these pups to different things and ideas and making them confident. Pups are sponges, we should be doing a lot with them, as fun games, while they are young to help ingrain good habits and the ability to think. 

I am not going to say don't read it, but don't single it out. I think what helps you learn the most and become a better trainer is getting as much information as you can. For example, some programs I understand their explanations of drills better. So you can always learn from other material. 

I have to say, one resource I tend to go back to a lot is Butch Goodwin's Retrievers from the Inside Out. I really like it. Now he doesn't go into e-collar training so I have to go somewhere else for that. But I like how he breaks things down and explains it. I also have the Stawski Fowl Dog series on DVD and volumes 1 and 2 are great. I've been to one of Evan's seminars and I also have the Farmer/Aycock Basics DVD. 

I'm one of those people who is stubborn and won't agree with one program in it's entirety so I read a lot and gain a lot of information and go from there. We'll see how I've done with my dog this summer now that I have hopefully put it all together with her and she's mature and ready to handle a test. I would love to say she's a great hunting dog but my hunting sucks and I don't have a lot of spots so she hasn't had her first real hunting retrieve despite my best efforts lol. Maybe next season. 

Kourtney


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

I had the pleasure of knowing Dick Wolters during the starting days of NAHRA over in Covington, Ga. He was not a pro trainer, but was a writer who chose bits from other writers as they applied to his dogs, Tar and Tartoo. He was an entertaining gentleman and was one of the first writers, after James Lamb Free, to get attention of the run-of-the-mill retriever owners. His contribution to the retriever world was great. He was also a world class sail plane pilot and he had just bought an ultra-lite plane. He had a heart attack while flying it and did not survive, otherwise he would have probably written a book on that too. He was entertaining and always a gentleman and a good friend.

I would start a collection of books by those that have written about training retrievers and use what applies to your dog. I would also take the advice of Cat Squirrel and go and JOIN Amite River HRC. They have a premier club with many very knowledgeable members with LOTS of experience. On top of that they are a fun group. Good luck in your quest, Bill
________
cheap condo in Pattaya


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

RemsBPJasper said:


> When I first started out and didn't have a clue what I was doing or what I wanted to do with my dog even, I bought Water Dog. I don't recall a lot of what the book says but I seem to remember it was a little harsh in his methods of teaching. Once he got into advanced stuff it was really hard for me to follow and I don't think I even finished reading the book to be honest.
> 
> Enter dog number 2. Sound Beginnings is great. I'm not saying abandon Water Dog. But for puppy development, Jackie does an amazing job introducing these pups to different things and ideas and making them confident. Pups are sponges, we should be doing a lot with them, as fun games, while they are young to help ingrain good habits and the ability to think.
> 
> ...


So how far have you gotten into training with all of this info and your stubborness that "won't agree with one program in it's entirety"? 
I could be completely wrong here, and will eat my words and apologize if I am, but as I remember it, you had one dog that you couldn't control and had to be put down, one that died early from kidney disease, and now the third pup which you are learning on? 

Here is the deal on waterdog , you can train a dog that is ok. A dog that will hunt and be better than many that you have hunted with. The big problem is that if you have a dog with a little different attitude, trainability, or specific problems, you will have a heck of a time going anywhere but the land of frustration with waterdog. If you have to have help with the dog, the basics are not going to be there to allow the normal fixes. This IS important because you are going to have a hard time finding someone, even a pro, that would be will to fix those problems without going back and retraining that dog from the beginning. So why not start with something more mainstream, if you will, so that help is easier to find. As a new trainer most are already going to create or allow enough issues, why start behind the eight ball? No matter what you want out of your dog, hunting companion, hunt test dog, or trial dog you will end up with a much better buddy if you start with the right foundations and there are much better, more thorough, and really easier to follow, books and videos out there than waterdog.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

My biggest provlem with WaterDog is that it does not address, and barely mentions the most important ability of a retriever, marking. The word is almost non-existant in the book. How can one train a decent retriever without a great emphasis on marking?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

bmvbrfd said:


> Why Not Water Dog? Bryan Villavaso
> Zachary Louisiana


 
I don't think the correct question is 'why not?', but 'why?'. There are a ton of much much better resources available. As has been mentioned.;-)

Juli


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## backpasture (May 20, 2008)

bmvbrfd said:


> I am new


You're new to this board, or new to retrievers?

If you are new to retrievers, and want a solid hunting dog, then Water Dog is just fine as an introductory training manual, IMO. Of course, you should refer to more than one source, so don't use it as your sole reference. 

If you want to get into dog games, then the more modern material will serve you better (Graham or Lardy). 

If your focus is on hunting over trials/tests, then I would suggest Butch Goodwin's 'Retrievers .....From the Inside Out'.


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## Brent Keever (Jun 14, 2008)

I think that was the best answer yet Juli.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

backpasture said:


> You're new to this board, or new to retrievers?
> 
> If you are new to retrievers, and want a solid hunting dog, then Water Dog is just fine as an introductory training manual, IMO. Of course, you should refer to more than one source, so don't use it as your sole reference.
> 
> ...


 
Wow DH/BP you train dogs? Who would have guessed it


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

backpasture said:


> If you are new to retrievers, and want a solid hunting dog, then Water Dog is just fine as an introductory training manual, IMO. Of course, you should refer to more than one source, so don't use it as your sole reference.


I COMPLETELY disagree. Look, this pup could be your pal for the next 14 years. What if right now you think that you won't want to do anything but hunt, then in 3 years, things change and you decide you want to enter some hunt tests(How many of us got into these games because of the enjoyment we had in training and spending time with them?) You would want the best foundation available and waterdog "ain't" it! I really think it is a bit irresponsible for anyone that knows better to recommend this book as a foundation for training. It is interesting and I have one on my book shelf, I trained my first dog 20 years ago using it but I would never recommend it to someone new to the game with the other much better info thats out there. It's not easier, it can lead to major frustration, and as I have already said, you will end up with a much better dog regardless of you goals using something else.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

achiro said:


> I COMPLETELY disagree. Look, this pup could be your pal for the next 14 years. What if right now you think that you won't want to do anything but hunt, then in 3 years, things change and you decide you want to enter some hunt tests(How many of us got into these games because of the enjoyment we had in training and spending time with them?) You would want the best foundation available and waterdog "ain't" it! I really think it is a bit irresponsible for anyone that knows better to recommend this book as a foundation for training. It is interesting and I have one on my book shelf, I trained my first dog 20 years ago using it but I would never recommend it to someone new to the game with the other much better info thats out there. It's not easier, it can lead to major frustration, and as I have already said, you will end up with a much better dog regardless of you goals using something else.


I was going to write a similar response, but just didn't have the energy. Very well said Achiro. I couldn't agree more. PLUS, if you are using a more mainstream program it will be much easier to get useful (applicable) help from others in a club, training group or if you ever need to use or consult a pro for some issue. I know most newbies think they will NEVER use a pro, but you really shouldn't say never.


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## backpasture (May 20, 2008)

achiro said:


> I COMPLETELY disagree. Look, this pup could be your pal for the next 14 years. What if right now you think that you won't want to do anything but hunt, then in 3 years, things change and you decide you want to enter some hunt tests(How many of us got into these games because of the enjoyment we had in training and spending time with them?) You would want the best foundation available and waterdog "ain't" it! I really think it is a bit irresponsible for anyone that knows better to recommend this book as a foundation for training. It is interesting and I have one on my book shelf, I trained my first dog 20 years ago using it but I would never recommend it to someone new to the game with the other much better info thats out there. It's not easier, it can lead to major frustration, and as I have already said, you will end up with a much better dog regardless of you goals using something else.


So we disagree.

My opinion is that, for the novice, who is new to retrievers (or even possibly new to owning a dog), there is nothing wrong with Water Dog. There are thousands and thousands of solid hunting dogs out there who have been trained effectively with it. 

For someone new, I think it is a fine introductory book, even if it wouldn't be the first book to recommend (That honor goes to "The 10 Minute Retriever"). If you're going to go with old school training texts, I'd suggest Bill Tarrant over Wolters anyday.

But, he already owns Water Dog. So, I wouldn't throw it away. There is useful information to be gleaned from it.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Water Dog would be ok for a novice as long as they understand not to follow his time line. I have people using the book worried the puppy isn't steady at blah blah weeks and it can be overbearing for some puppies. Early puppy time needs to be fun and not like going to bootcamp.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Bklk said:


> I'm just a beginner actually not even a beginner because i will be getting a "Chopper" pup in June. I've been reading and studying on this subject for the last three years preparing for my dog. Have been to a couple of Hunt Test and talked with people. I have read Water Dog, Game Dog and James Lamb Free's book. I have chosen the Smartworks system to follow. I think anything you read, can and will help enhance any program you go with as long as you don't try to cannibalize the program you pick. Just thought from someone who don't know anything.


 
Oh my..... your first dog is a chopper pup? I hope you're young, diligent, patient, and have a lot of "go".... cause you're pup sure will!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

backpasture said:


> So we disagree.
> 
> My opinion is that, for the novice, who is new to retrievers (or even possibly new to owning a dog), there is nothing wrong with Water Dog. There are thousands and thousands of solid hunting dogs out there who have been trained effectively with it.
> 
> ...


Unlike any of your post. What was your name again??? Oh yeah you are not big enought to put it out there are you


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Unlike any of your post. What was your name again??? Oh yeah you are not big enought to put it out there are you


Corey, Please leave BackPasture alone and put him/her on ignore.

Thanks,

Chris


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Spoil sport

for you though....sure

Do I have to on POTUS place too ???


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

delete....


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

achiro said:


> So how far have you gotten into training with all of this info and your stubborness that "won't agree with one program in it's entirety"?
> I could be completely wrong here, and will eat my words and apologize if I am, but as I remember it, you had one dog that you couldn't control and had to be put down, one that died early from kidney disease, and now the third pup which you are learning on?


This is totally uncalled for! Way to be an a$$!


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

RemsBPJasper said:


> Seriously, what is your problem??
> Kourtney


My problem is that you and several others that really have no clue what you are doing have taken over this site by continually giving advise on things that you can't have the experience to know. It's not about titled dogs(I've been training retievers for 20years and never even thought about titles until fairly recently, as a student using money for travel and tests/trials wasn't a priority so I understand that), its not about what happened to your dogs in the past its about the fact that you have experience with 3 pups barely through FF and yet feel like giving advise to someone just trying to get into things like you know what the finished results are going to be. For God's sake you argued with a vet last week about animal nutrition) 
Before someone jumps in, I have always been one that says that we can learn something from everyone no matter their experience level but there is a difference between someone new making an observation from the outside and commenting on it and someone that puts themselves out there like they've been there.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

1973 Baird's Centerville Sam was trained with Water Dog as a guide - ask Tommy Sorenson the amount of redo he had to do with the dog prior to competing with him in FT's. 

Richard Wolters attended the MT state retriever trial in July 1964. The prevailing opinion was of a non conformist to gain maximum attention. His business was writing dog books so that should come as little surprise. The most unusual thing I remember is the huge Oversize tires he had on his pickup for the camper setup.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> This is totally uncalled for! Way to be an a$$!


Not really, I only play one online.


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

delete....


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

delete, my apologies for being inappropriate


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

I think everyone needs to chill out.

For Heaven's sake.....


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

I apologize and I'll leave well enough alone next time.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I cut my teeth on Wolters.
I would recommend his book to people who are brand new and don't know much about dog training.
It is my proffessional opinion that a new person will gather more practical usable knowledge for the first 6 months of that dogs life than any other book I have read.
Sound beginnings is very good for new people also .
But heaven forbid don't stay their your whole life.
After you learn the basics of praise and some corrections and a little attrition then you will find it easier to do the more dog training 101 stuff. You must learn how to add and subtract before you can do calculist

Pete


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

achiro said:


> Not really, I only play one online.


All anyone has done is offer advice about the book. How does that turn into new people "taking" over the site? She offered advice on the book just like everyone else and you attack her for not having done enough training. Just because someone hasn't trained a dog does not mean they have not read a lot about it. I have read more than my fair share of topics that I have never done or participated in but that doesn't mean I don't know my fair share about them. Guess you need to train for 20 some odd years before you can speak on here about anything!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Wow and I got in trouble for asking BP his name....
Just saying


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Water Dog is what it is…there are a lot of us out there that got his book when we got our first retriever and “trained” our first dog with it and thought we were using the best method to train a retriever. I still have my copy of Water Dog on my book shelf and it will stay there and I am not embarrassed to display it. I and Holly (black lab female) had a blast working through that book. Holly is long gone but the book remains just like her lead and collar remain hanging on the garage wall….she has been gone for more years than I am willing to admit. 

So while there are better methods to train a dog out there, I would have a hard time telling my 17 year old nephew not to use Water Dog to train his gundog. People need to remember this dog stuff is suppose to be fun and if it is causing you to be an overbearing insensitive ass of a human being maybe you need to do something different with your life.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> 1973 Baird's Centerville Sam was trained with Water Dog as a guide - ask Tommy Sorenson the amount of redo he had to do with the dog prior to competing with him in FT's.
> 
> Richard Wolters attended the MT state retriever trial in July 1964. The prevailing opinion was of a non conformist to gain maximum attention. His business was writing dog books so that should come as little surprise. The most unusual thing I remember is the huge Oversize tires he had on his pickup for the camper setup.


So Richard didn't have his "Musketeer" hat with the big feather in it back in 64?...that is what I remembered about him win I met in Stillwater Oklahoma many moons ago...but not as far back as 64...by the way...the cheese rocks...only one problem...it ran out on me...how do you get more of that stuff?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Russ, 

Why be so hateful? 

In your first slam against Kourtney, you offered the option of apologizing if you were wrong.

I think a few think you were.

I don't see any reason to be so mean.

It is entirely possible to disagree without being mean.

Right?

Chris


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Water Dog is what it is…there are a lot of us out there that got his book when we got our first retriever and “trained” our first dog with it and thought we were using the best method to train a retriever. I still have my copy of Water Dog on my book shelf and it will stay there and I am not embarrassed to display it. I and Holly (black lab female) had a blast working through that book. Holly is long gone but the book remains just like her lead and collar remain hanging on the garage wall….she has been gone for more years than I am willing to admit.
> 
> So while there are better methods to train a dog out there, I would have a hard time telling my 17 year old nephew not to use Water Dog to train his gundog. *People need to remember this dog stuff is suppose to be fun and if it is causing you to be an overbearing insensitive ass of a human being maybe you need to do something different with your life*.


That's it . Or it's at least as close to "it"as one needs to get.

I wonder where my copy got to. I'd like to take amother look 
john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I always liked the book.

I always liked old RAW. I remember during "desert storm" I was running my Avatar dog in a NAHRA Intermediate test on a long water blind at Stewart Properties in NY State (airforce base).

Those darn C5A's were taking off every 15 minutes like clockwork and they were loud. RAW told us we could walk out as far as we wanted to kick our dogs off. I went back to the truck and got chest waders and waded in up to my waist and sent my old meat dog.

I remember Tony Schuko was there running his littermates Blackie and Gus. I sent old Champ and he got out there a bit offline and I tooted my little gonia special orange pea-whistle. Champ cruised along and I saw RAW writing....a C5A was screaming overhead and he wrote "plane noise" on his sheet. 

I remember he said "Good job guys" as we walked off the line....to go pick up a little old NAHRA Intermediate ribbon. That meant more to me than getting my Penn State diploma just a short while before! 

I don't follow RAW's book to the letter today, but I'm sure that some of the principles and foundations that I picked up from that book, are influencing what I do now.

It's all good. 

RIP Raw.... I'll never forget your enthusiasm, your stubborn attitude at tailgates, and your love of life. I bet Olive had her share of tolerance to deal with!

Chris


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## justamere (Feb 19, 2008)

bmvbrfd said:


> I am new and don't know much but I read Water Dog and have the movie. It seems like alot of people prefer other methods of training. What do ya'll recomend. My dog is just started and not too far along so I would like to get all the input I can......and if anyone wants to sell me a book or dvd I am really trying to make a good hunting dog.
> 
> Bryan Villavaso
> Zachary Louisiana


Hey Bryan -
I too have read Water Dog and it will always have a place on my bookshelf, but there are also more recent books and videos that can be helpful, especially if you want to compete.

However I would first suggest joining a training group. Go to a few sessions, see how they work, ask their opinions about books and videos, and IF you like working with that group get the same materials that they have. A book can only show you the way, but it can't help when you run into trouble. If you're using the same materials, the others in the group would have a better chance of figuring out how to help.

Another insight - try to stick with one program. Read other books and watch other videos, but don't use a piece from one program and something else from another program unless you want a confused dog. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again.

Good luck,
Marcia


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Wow and I got in trouble for asking BP his name....
> Just saying


I've addressed it.

BP has sent me at least a half dozen reported posts. I'm sure Vicky Trainor is just delighted...Dannaway too. We'd probably feel a bit more empathetic for old BP if the reported posts were not largely excerpts from threads where BP had little zingers of her own tossed in there.

I like what CatSquirrel Kevin said...time for some folks to chill.

Chris

RAW was a cool guy. He loved his eggs runny at breakfast. 

My old Champ dog was a bankrunner and we did a demo with RAW at Okem Mountain, VT. Each time Champ came to the line to run his water marks, RAW would say into his microphone: "By land or by sea?!!" And Champ would take the land route!

Chris


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## Chance Raehn (Dec 18, 2008)

"Finished Dog" by Charlie Jurney. It's a continuation of "Water Dog" with modern techniques.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Russ,
> 
> Why be so hateful?
> 
> ...


Why is telling the truth "hateful" and "mean"? If you knew me in person Chris you would know that I am about as far from those things as anyone you would ever know. I do take offense to the things you just said because they are not true at all. My life is dedicated to loving and helping others, it is my passion. It is what I do every day. My only problem is that I tell it like it is. I never thought telling the truth was a flaw. 

There are a lot of people here that think the same as I do. Most won't ever say anything publically for fear of being called "mean" though. I guess I don't blame them. But if being called an "ass" is the worst I get for helping someone new understand the info they are getting I suppose it's worth it.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> BP has sent me at least a half dozen reported posts. I'm sure Vicky Trainor is just delighted...Dannaway too. We'd probably feel a bit more empathetic for old BP if the reported posts were not largely excerpts from threads where BP had little zingers of *her* own tossed in there.


I'll bet you a *dollar* that you wouldn't have had _nearly_ the problems you'd had ANYWHERE of late if folks were required to use their real names....;-)

Deja vu all over again regards,

kg


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

achiro said:


> Why is telling the truth "hateful" and "mean"? If you knew me in person Chris you would know that I am about as far from those things as anyone you would ever know. I do take offense to the things you just said because they are not true at all. My life is dedicated to loving and helping others, it is my passion. It is what I do every day. My only problem is that I tell it like it is. I never thought telling the truth was a flaw.
> 
> There are a lot of people here that think the same as I do. Most won't ever say anything publically for fear of being called "mean" though. I guess I don't blame them. But if being called an "ass" is the worst I get for helping someone new understand the info they are getting I suppose it's worth it.


Russ, 

I have re-read what you wrote to her maintain that there was a more diplomatic way to disagree. Coming off as mean and hateful in the name of "telling it the way it is" is rationalization. 

Please disagree the topic, but please don't be hurtful. Isn't that fair and reasonable?

I've met you in person before. Galyan's in Kansas City. Several years ago. I flew out to blow in the Regional contests. You were there watching with your dad.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

achiro said:


> Why is telling the truth "hateful" and "mean"? If you knew me in person Chris you would know that I am about as far from those things as anyone you would ever know. I do take offense to the things you just said because they are not true at all. My life is dedicated to loving and helping others, it is my passion. It is what I do every day. My only problem is that I tell it like it is. I never thought telling the truth was a flaw.
> 
> There are a lot of people here that think the same as I do. Most won't ever say anything publically for fear of being called "mean" though. I guess I don't blame them. But if being called an "ass" is the worst I get for helping someone new understand the info they are getting I suppose it's worth it.


Hahaha! Russ, I just got a PM that I will paste here, without naming the poster. But it may be someone you know in person.



> Because it is $%^&*#@ hateful Russ....if you dont get that I feel sorry for you.


So that's his take on it.

Chris


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hahaha! Russ, I just got a PM that I will paste here, without naming the poster. But it may be someone you know in person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Patrick sent that to me too Chris. Funny stuff. 
I guess I could post the PM's of all the folks that agree with everything I said and we could have a big ol' laugh.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

Yep, I still have my books from RAW on the book shelf also proudly displayed. I had the pleasure of meeting him on several occasions when Tidewater was running NAHRA. He was quite the character. I still have the one book he wrote in to me and my wife about one of our dogs many years ago "To Carolyn & Bill, Show Belle the Pictures, You read the text, then all Believe!" Hey I would rather see someone at least read his book than not read anything and try and train there dog. It has some good tidbits in it. I follow Lardy these days, but I always enjoy going back and rereading the old books.

Bill


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

I agree that Russ may not show the greatest in tact sometimes; tact can be overrated!!
I also agree with his premise that it seems that some of the more inexperienced or new to dog training crowd seem to offer more advice and post more often than they should

I still remember my first dog regards


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

well, the way I see it Kourtney was not giving advice on running an all age 350 yd water blind with a 100 yd angle entry, swim past a point, down a channel, onto an island, then angle out of the water with a 75 yd exit, sidehill.

It is a post about a stupid book.

Juli


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I pretty much think you all have lost your marbles.

Somebody wants to know if Rin Tin Tin is a good book to read.

Some gal says it's good but not great.

Some guy thinks that gal couldn't make a choo choo sound much less ride the Soul Train.

Some guy thinks that guy is meanie weenie.

Some guy just wants the real name for meanie weenie.

Can I start saying "it's all about the dogs" again yet?


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

I will say this. I feel Russ was harsh in his assumptions about my dogs and my training and my experience. I did however overreact and have an outburst. Eh, I'm female and, well, ya know...lol. I have sent Russ a PM apologizing for my outburst. I simply feel that like Russ I was posting in an attempt to help someone from a perspective of someone else who is still new. 

I will publicly apologize to everyone on here who feels that my posts are not needed because they are inexperienced and have little to no merit because of my lack of credentials. I'm sorry that's the way a lot of people feel. I didn't realize that we weren't supposed to post because we were so new. I just like to help people too. 

Oh well, life goes on. Can't be everyone's friend I guess. Been here 5 years, almost that long on this site too, and still a newbie that is looked at as an outsider.


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

Oops, only almost 4 yrs on the site hehe.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

RemsBPJasper said:


> I will say this. I feel Russ was harsh in his assumptions about my dogs and my training and my experience. I did however overreact and have an outburst. Eh, I'm female and, well, ya know...lol. I have sent Russ a PM apologizing for my outburst. I simply feel that like Russ I was posting in an attempt to help someone from a perspective of someone else who is still new.
> 
> I will publicly apologize to everyone on here who feels that my posts are not needed because they are inexperienced and have little to no merit because of my lack of credentials. I'm sorry that's the way a lot of people feel. I didn't realize that we weren't supposed to post because we were so new. I just like to help people too.
> 
> Oh well, life goes on. Can't be everyone's friend I guess. Been here 5 years, almost that long on this site too, and still a newbie that is looked at as an outsider.


Don't let anyone get you down. I for one appreciate your advice.

Let's go find a "name game" thread together and let em' know we got it.


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

lol. Awww. Thanks!  Should have done that before we decided on "Skeeter" haha. WindyCanyon's Ticket to Ride since getting the plane ticket was such a PITA!


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Can I start saying "it's all about the dogs" again yet?


Well, I've said it a few times for ya while you were gone.......

I think people are a little testy- winter's been a tad too long. 

Also the recent thread about how the experienced people have left RTF because of relatively new people offering authoritative advice... 

spring is coming, people!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

achiro said:


> Patrick sent that to me too Chris. Funny stuff.
> I guess I could post the PM's of all the folks that agree with everything I said and we could have a big ol' laugh.


Didn't you have a board of your own to act this way....? How successfull was that? Might want to learn from that.....

/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Didn't you have a board of your own to act this way....? How successfull was that? Might want to learn from that.....
> 
> /Paul


Ah Paul, your so silly. 

Truth though, we were so bad they banned us too.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Ah Paul, your so silly.
> 
> Truth though, we were so bad they banned us too.


So you all like run in packs or something?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> So you all like run in packs or something?


It was actually down to the point where the only "Thread Killer" was asking a lefty to be logical over on POTUS PLACE. With Guthrie & Co back there is the potential for "THREAD KILLERS" anytime. Guthrie needs to tell everyone that counts that he voted in the last election for the correct candidate.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> So you all like run in packs or something?


Yep, pretty much.

We are real mean and have big sharp teeth.

Rrrrrrrrrrr..............


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Yep, pretty much.
> 
> We are real mean and have big sharp teeth.
> 
> Rrrrrrrrrrr..............


You know how I know you're gay ?


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> You know how I know you're gay ?


Hahaha!!! Do tell!


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> You know how I know you're gay ?


I don't know how you know, but I figured you had an idea when you woke up with carpet burns on your knees and a sore throat.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I don't know how you know, but I figured you had an idea when you woke up with carpet burns on your knees and a sore throat.


:shock::lol::lol: ROFLMAO!!!!!!!


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

This thread has most definitely been a chameleon....

next thing you know we'll be talking about wrestle mania with a vacuum cleaner gone wild.:smile:

Juli


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I don't know how you know, but I figured you had an idea when you woke up with carpet burns on your knees and a sore throat.




Wow RAW would be proud, who would a thunk a thread about WD would ever get to this point. 
Damn Ken welcome back


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I don't know how you know, but I figured you had an idea when you woke up with carpet burns on your knees and a sore throat.


Someone's been there done that??:twisted:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> So you all like run in packs or something?


 
Don't you mean slept in packs....?

/Paul


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

No one knows where these threads will end up.....

Follow the White Rabbit, Neo


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

It's pretty easy to figure after awhile.....some things _never_ change. 

Same 'ole same 'ole regards,

kg


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I don't know how you know, but I figured you had an idea when you woke up with carpet burns on your knees and a sore throat.





No…I never played baseball…but you did….weren’t you a “catcher” ?


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## bmvbrfd (Jan 3, 2009)

Wow I never thought this thread would get so much attention. I knew poeple had different opinions and was wonderinig what they were.......and not only did I get that but some nearby trainers gave me their numbers and said they would help me and to call if I have any questions. It's nice to know how many people are out there willing to help a beginer in training his own dog.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> No…I never played baseball…but you did….weren’t you a “catcher” ?


Yep...

That's a great line. I guess I should pass that on to the thousands of others who've already used it.


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## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

Hmm... and POTUS was getting complaints.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

bmvbrfd said:


> Wow I never thought this thread would get so much attention. I knew poeple had different opinions and was wonderinig what they were.......and not only did I get that but some nearby trainers gave me their numbers and said they would help me and to call if I have any questions. It's nice to know how many people are out there willing to help a beginer in training his own dog.


Bryan,

You have my number and are welcome to come out and train whenever you want. I will be training this weekend. (Friday afternoon, Sat and Sun).

Kevin (Cat Squirrel)


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

When I got my first pup I had read Wolters Game Dog and Water Dog books before hand. I basically used the OB puppy part as a beginning or foundation for my pup. It was pretty easy to understand. I think his stuff is pretty easy to read but is very very basic. As others have said Wolters never actually trained his own dogs. If your goal is to train a sophisticated, well finished to to compete in test or trials his book isn't one to follow. 

Along the way I've read 10 minute Retriever, seen the FowlDogs videos and the Farmer/Aycock videos, seen the Carr/Rorem video and read Evans Smartworks books. I might have retained a third of it all and thankfully I have my trainer to talk about what is in those books with. That really helps when I'm confused. Through all of that, one thing I definitely know is that there is no way I could have gotten my present dog to where he is now just by following Wolters book. There is no analysis in his writings to help you overcome obstacles and he doesn't get into advanced comcepts in any way.

BKLK,

As you know I have a Chopper pup coming from the same litter. As far as Wolters books are concerned I think they give someone that is looking for an insight to dogs a base to work from. It's a basic foundation the needs a lot of work to become finished. The trainer that trains my present dog and will train my Chopper pup actually trained Wolters dogs Tar and Pitch. He was very good friends with Wolters. When I got my present dog from him his advice was to use the Wolters book as a basic beginning/guideline for my pup. As we progressed he would give me objectives to work on along the way. Once my dog had his adult teeth in he went to my trainer full time. I think that once a pup gets to the point that it's time for FF Wolters principles start to show their weaknesses. As others have said you can come out with a good hunting dog but if you want a test or trial dog you will come up lacking. 

Along the way I've read 10 minute Retriever, Wolters books, seen, the FowlDogs videos and the Farmer/Aycock videos, seen the Carr/Rorem video and read Evans Smartworks books. I might have retaind a third of it all and thankfully I have my trainer to talk about what is in those books with. That really helps when I'm confused. Through all of that one thing I definitely know is that there is no way I could have gotten my present dog to where he is now just by following Wolters book. There is no analysis in his writings to help you overcome obstacles.

As far as our Chopper pups; why invest what we are in a pup like that and short change it's potential with a basic ABC type 1st gradebook when it really needs a Phd. type education?

I think Smartworks would go a long way towards that goal.


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## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

Watrdawg said:


> BKLK,
> 
> As you know I have a Chopper pup coming from the same litter. As far as Wolters books are concerned I think they give someone that is looking for an insight to dogs a base to work from. It's a basic foundation the needs a lot of work to become finished. The trainer that trains my present dog and will train my Chopper pup actually trained Wolters dogs Tar and Pitch. He was very good friends with Wolters. When I got my present dog from him his advice was to use the Wolters book as a basic beginning/guideline for my pup. As we progressed he would give me objectives to work on along the way. Once my dog had his adult teeth in he went to my trainer full time. I think that once a pup gets to the point that it's time for FF Wolters principles start to show their weaknesses. As others have said you can come out with a good hunting dog but if you want a test or trial dog you will come up lacking.
> 
> ...



Excellent post... I guess that is my take on Wolters as well, it was great for its time and intended market but, why bother? 

IMO you cannot go wrong investing in Sound Beginnings from Jackie Mertens which transitions nicely into Mike Lardy's video and book series. Even if I was training "just" a hunting dog I would use these programs. 

A review and summary of the content of the video: 
http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/videoreview.htm

Good Luck


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Richard would have loved this thread. 

His works were the "Smartworks" of his day. Game Dog/Water Dog is OK if you just want a hunting buddy, but it's out-dated and the fast pace is silly. (Masterthings,then move on.)

Go with Lardy's Basics, despite the poor out-dated video production - the yard sequences are great. Or try the new Farmer/Aycock basics. Find something that makes sense to you and stick to it. Whatever you use, you have to learn to "read" the dog.

Better yet join a training group with some accomplished folks.

And don't worry about "ruining" your pup. You two can learn a lot together - and he's your pup, not some fancypants Ph.Dog. The most important thing is to work together toward YOUR goals.

==

And, Will, I don't think Richard liked to be called Dick. ;-)


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

> And, Will, I don't think Richard liked to be called Dick.


There are LOTS of folks that walked away thinkking "DICK" after meeting him. 

Prolly how the name stuck regards

Bubba


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> There are LOTS of folks that walked away thinkking "DICK" after meeting him.
> 
> Prolly how the name stuck regards
> 
> Bubba


Is that what that moron said about us last year the double header? Geez, some people...



/Paul


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