# Who is the best Amateur Trainer



## captdan (Jan 25, 2004)

1. Who is the best Amateur trainer that you have trained with--at least 21 
days in one year?

2. More importantly, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEIR WORTH?

Dan Rice


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

captdan said:


> 1. Who is the best Amateur trainer that you have trained with--at least 21
> days in one year?
> 
> 2. More importantly, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEIR WORTH?
> ...


You measure their worth by their results... Arnie and Linda Erwin, Bob Johnson, Carl Ruffalo, Kip Kemp, our own Howard N to name a few...

The best to me... John Cavanaugh..... I've trained with him and it's too bad he's no longer in the sport. But boy o boy,,, that guy know's his stuff...

p.s. I'm sure I'm going to edit my post as more people come to mind....

Angie


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## Sedric (Oct 7, 2008)

Jeff Adams, Jim Dorbeck great guys I'm learned alot from.


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## goosecaller (May 27, 2006)

Jack Volstedt. 

He is the most dreaded @ a trial to go up against. He even does well in the Open as well.

Very disciplined and knows his stuff quite well. I have been very fortunate to get to train with him on a regular basis. I have learned much from him.

He has been to the National a lot and has finished most of them.

A real competitor and a true gentlemen.

His worth to me is priceless. He will share his many years of knowledge, successes and failures openly and honestly. He has the whole package from puppy to Big Dog with a track record second to none. He reads dogs extremely well and will give advice on specifics for the dog/handler.


Goose


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Dont forget about Jimmie Darnell.......


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## Baby Duck (Jul 14, 2005)

I have not had the pleasure to train with him but Dennis Voight has to be up there 

Mike


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

John Cavanaugh: I started training hunting dogs with John in Tampa, FL years ago. He was very demanding of his dogs and himself. He went from a slow show dog, Sunny, to a ball of fire named Tina. What a contrast. We hunted Lake Okeechobee and the lakes in central Florida together for about 5 years. 
After spending approx 4 years in Milan, Italy he came back to Penn/NJ area and went on to greatness. I too am sorry he's out of the game. I hear he is a pilot and plays golf now for enjoyment. 
I wish I knew 1/10th of what he does about dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

captdan said:


> 1. Who is the best Amateur trainer that you have trained with--at least 21
> days in one year?
> 
> 2. More importantly, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEIR WORTH?
> ...


Hi Dan,

What is the intent of the thread? I am not being facetious. I often don't understand why certain questions are asked. And in fact, you ask two totally different questions here.

What are you trying to get out of each of them? Is your goal to admire/train with/eumulate those mentioned?

If you were more specific, responses might be of more help to you.

Melanie


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Charles Hayes.......Retriever Hall of Fame, winner of 2 Nationals


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

hmmmm well Dan, that I personally have trained with for 21 days or MORE  each year.
that would have to be my friend Bruce Butler. How do I measure his worth?
Usually by the 12 pack. He is good for 1 every other time we train.
I think the AKC measures it with passes and failures at the master hunt level 
oh then there is that pesky knack of his of placing birds in spots dogs do not want to run to.
best amateurs I want to (but never have) train with would be the Russell's Martha and John.
I just want to run dogs on their front lawn in Stowe one time  well maybe more!


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

First, I would have to say Howard of course, with whom I train with more than 21 days a year. He downplays his accomplishments and is completely willing to help anyone who asks. Training and trialing is pretty much his whole life, and he works extremely hard at events.

I am fortunate enough to train with a wonderful group of amateurs, a couple of whom have qualified and been to Nationals. All of whom will bend over backwards to help not only me, but anyone who should ask a question that is important to them. All of them respect and love their dogs.

All of them give back to the sport by judging, working at events, and are just good people. I guess that is how I would measure their "worth". I would have to ask captdan what he means by "worth".


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the best I have trained with,present family excluded is Roy McFall or George Wilson....the best amateur trainer without a doubt is




*JUDY AYCOCK*


Her records and accomplishments speak for themselves

Lanse Brown would have to be in the top five for sure


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

captdan said:


> 1. Who is the best Amateur trainer that you have trained with--at least 21
> days in one year?
> 
> 2. More importantly, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEIR WORTH?
> ...


Dan,

Kate and the recently deceased Pete Simonds. It almost seems crass to "measure their worth", my ego is too fragile for them to measure mine. But, with their many years of combined experience, differing viewpoints on certain training principles (which made for some lively discussions), the outstanding caliber of their other training partners, along with National level grounds, birdboys and equipment, for me, they have been priceless.


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## MKaty Gutermuth (Aug 17, 2004)

A number of people come to mind..... Lanse Brown, Charlie Hayden, Bart Clark, Charlie Hines, Mac & Lynne Dubose, Lyn Yelton, Judy Aycock, Martha and John Russell.


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## captdan (Jan 25, 2004)

Melanie,

My intent was to try to get people to identify what they have seen in the best trainers they have been fortunate to train with. What do those individuals do that makes them special?

Dan


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

captdan said:


> Melanie,
> 
> My intent was to try to get people to identify what they have seen in the best trainers they have been fortunate to train with. What do those individuals do that makes them special?
> 
> Dan


I think it would be no different than with a pro -- timing, fairness, balance, ability to read a dog and analyze the series they're presented with... The one advantage, maybe sometimes disadvantage, is their relationship with their dog in some cases -- where they are closer with their dog than a pro might be.


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## captdan (Jan 25, 2004)

Kristie, 

What you said. I have been fortunate to train with two trainers whom I consider outstanding.

1. *Bart Clark*--quirky, but a lot of fun. He will gratuitously tell you what he thinks you should do with your dog. Bart is extremely good at showing his dogs what he wants (he also tells them). He is a very efficient trainer who knows what dogs need to be taught. He makes few mistakes in training that lead to speed bumps in the dogs' progress. He works on individual concepts and builds on each concept day after day. He seems to be able to work with and get the most from any dog he has. He wins at all levels of Field Trials except the nationals(yet).

2. Bob Willow--laid back and quiet. He knows where to place the birds and how to use terrain. He will only occasionally give advice and it comes in broad strokes. So, one has to watch him carefully and read what he does to see the subtle differences in his training methodology. He has a depth of knowledge of techniques that few possess. Bob trains hard and whenever he can, a hard worker. The number of dogs that he has put "letters" on is in the double digits.

Dan Rice


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Bob Willow is my choice for the reasons stated above.
john


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

One person named trains daily with a pro.... does that constitute the best "Amateur Trainer" because they are fortunately enough to not have to work daily, and can go and run their dog? Just askin' for the definition... which has been greatly confused in the past several years..


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

MKaty Gutermuth said:


> A number of people come to mind..... Lanse Brown, Charlie Hayden, Charlie Hines, Mac & Lynne Dubose, Lyn Yelton, Judy Aycock, Martha and John Russell.


Now are we talking about Ams. that train their own dog from 7 weeks old and a pro never touches it ? If so a few of these names would'nt count.


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## captdan (Jan 25, 2004)

I was looking for Amateurs who primarily do the work themselves. Whether they train with a pro or not is irrelevant if they do the training with their own program.

Dan


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

The "21 days a year" knocks me out for answering this question and I also am wondering if the definition applies to those whose dogs are with a pro part of the year or someone who trains their dog year round.

So-with those caveats:

I'll agree with Mark as far as Kate & Pete Simonds. I trained w/ them far less than Mark and was by no means part of their group, but I certainly appreciated the times I was included. Way back, when I had my old, big Golden, Kate-Kate Simonds doesn't know that her compliments at a club training day encouraged me to think my Kate was worth pursuing upper level HT titles with. Another time I gunned for a FT on her property and she told me that when I was done I was welcome to train on the property.

The couple of times I trained with Kate and Pete when I brought Finn-I was not only impressed by hearing them discuss why they were placing their birds where they did, but by their absolute respect for their dogs. Kate is a very, very good handler and gracious with her advice-she appreciates good dogs.

I took a few days off this past summer and trained with Steve Low on Carol Lantigne's property. What I was most impressed with was not just that he challenges them in training, but is soft spoken and it's clear that the over-riding incentive for him is not winning down the road, but the absolute passion he has for his dogs and training. I've trained with him in a group before too and he's the antithesis of the guy who wants to "win" the training session. He's the first one to tell you what a great job your dog did.

Two big thumbs up to Carol Cassity too. I know she runs workshops, but she does not take dogs in for training or train anyone else's dogs in any way. Like Steve-I see the way her dogs are clearly working for her. Don't get me wrong-I think they are birdy and driven enough to work for anyone, but it's apparent they are 100% out to please her. And again-she's quiet & doesn't seem to let her dogs get in the position of needing many corrections.

Ironically-one amateur I would really like to train with is Bart Clark. I could not stand him when I met him (those that were there know we almost killed each other!  ), but I've since come to really respect what he gets out of his dogs and how high his standards are. He will happily-(ok, not happily) pull his dog from what would likely be a placement if the dog is going against what he expects in training. I KNOW he would have me in tears by the end of a training session, but I bet Finn would be better for it on the long run!

M


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

captdan said:


> I was looking for Amateurs who primarily do the work themselves. Whether they train with a pro or not is irrelevant if they do the training with their own program.
> 
> Dan


I don't know anyone who trains with a pro on a daily basis that doesn't follow that pro's program and take advice from that pro..... especially when they pay that pro. 


well maybe I have seen one down south that seemed to be in compeitition with that pro to "do it better"... and the pro just got to where he'd walk back to his truck and not say a word. But i wouldn't say that was the norm.


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## captdan (Jan 25, 2004)

The two people I mentioned train their own dogs by their own program although they do train with a pro whom they do not pay or expect advice from. I do the same.

Dan


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## Roger Perry (Nov 6, 2003)

Ken Neil comes to mind. He has won 2 Nationals with 2 different dogs.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Roger Perry said:


> Ken Neil comes to mind. He has won 2 Nationals with 2 different dogs.


Didnt Pleasant train them ?


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

captdan said:


> 1. Who is the best Amateur trainer that you have trained with--at least 21
> days in one year?
> 
> 2. More importantly, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEIR WORTH?
> ...


Did the subject of this change to simply naming successful amateurs? If so, BORING! I'd be interested in reading about good amateur trainers, regardless of what pro may have trained them, and what these amateurs bring to their training group.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Goldenboy said:


> Did the subject of this change to simply naming successful amateurs? If so, BORING! I'd be interested in reading about good amateur trainers, regardless of what pro may have trained them, and what these amateurs bring to their training group.


That's kinda what I thought this thread was about...


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> That's kinda what I thought this thread was about...


Me, too. But then amatuers were thrown out there who don't train their own dogs, but go to training every day. While this is great, and I wish I could do it.... I think the pro deserves at least part of the credit for the dog.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Goldenboy said:


> Did the subject of this change to simply naming successful amateurs? If so, BORING! I'd be interested in reading about good amateur trainers, regardless of what pro may have trained them, and what these amateurs bring to their training group.


The problem as I see it Mark, is that people can only define success by ribbons. This thread assumes that because an amateur handled the dog, that must make them a successful trainer. Success to me depends on the dog. I've been happier getting some dogs a senior pass over dogs getting Master titles because for the senior dog it was a much bigger accomplishment, took more effort, training skill, work, and reading the dog. 

A lot of "successful" amateur's also go through a dozen dogs a year. They search for the talented dog and then send to a top pro. In my mind a successful amateur sticks with the dog he got and gets it as far as he can. 

Point number 3 also pertains to "amateur" status. We call them an amateur because they don't take money for training dogs. AKC's definition of Pro. Yet most of these folks train full time. I'll mention Mac/Lynn D. and Jack V because I know them both. No doubt they have earned much respect in the sport, and I do respect them. Yet at the same time they train pretty much every day, have dog trucks full of dogs, and full blown retriever training facilities with hundreds of acres of private property they have purchased and developed specifically for retrievers. They also utilize pro trainers. 

I'm not saying their is anythign wrong with any of this. If you have goals of winning trials and/or nationals this is they way to get there. But if your're talking pure amateur training skill, then I think there is much more to consider than just ribbons and placements. Many "really good" trainers often go unnoticed because nobody views that as successful. 



/Paul


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I mentioned a couple of amateur trainers and the one thing they both had in common was they both think "out of the box" I spent many an hour on the phone with George Wilson in deep philosophical discussions on how to attack certain problems with my dog,some of which I did not agree with but I found that if I went in with an open mind that his methods although not necessarily in the mainstream worked well for him.

Mr. Mc Fall is a whole different kind of trainer, I think that one of the reasons he is so successful is that his training methods havent really changed over the years, combine that with the fact that the bloodlines that he breeds for enhances the qualities he looks for in a dog. I think Mr.McFall has the best gameplan of anyone I have had the opportunity to be around on how HE want to produce a field champion,kind of a method to his madness

i know I am very biased on my brother Clint's abilities as a trainer but the best objective way I can describe the way he trains is that, he uses his educational expertise in animal behavior(his minor in college) and is able to train for a dog's deficiencies instead of constantly working on what a dog does well. I think what my brother does poorly is that he has a tendency to overplay the situation in a field trial and IMHO has lost many a trial that he should have won or even placed in by playing it a little safer instead of going all out after it (my armchair quarterback observation) but thats just not in his psychological makeup


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## ironwill (Nov 19, 2004)

Charlie Hayes
Mitch Patterson
Gary Mcilwain


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

captdan said:


> 1. Who is the best Amateur trainer that you have trained with--at least 21
> days in one year?


Paul Rainbolt





captdan said:


> 2. More importantly, HOW DO YOU MEASURE THEIR WORTH?


Because he truly enjoys the dogs and is able to leave the “stuff” that surrounds the sport alone….besides he is a pretty good hunting buddy to boot.


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## zipmarc (Jan 23, 2006)

bonbonjovi said:


> the best I have trained with,present family excluded is Roy McFall or George Wilson....the best amateur trainer without a doubt is
> 
> 
> *JUDY AYCOCK*
> ...


I second that. It's been years since I've been around either of them, decades, in fact. Now I hope my current training buddies don't read this and get pissed off...


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## daviddeevee (Jan 31, 2006)

Does melanie run dogs or train her dogs??


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I would be interested in hearing specific examples of different things that amateur - or pro - trainers do that people have found helpful in their training ... 

Rather, than just another version of my ________ is better than your ________


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

Carl Ruffalo.

During training he coaches me, tells me when I've done something that isn't good, and he tells me when I've done something well. If he questions my cast or whistle or whatever, we talk about it. On the long ride home (we spend 3 hours a day driving), we talk about the days setups, how the dogs did, why a dog did this or that, what I should have done differently, and we laugh a lot.

I feel very fortunate to be part of a good amateur group that trains every day. I have Carl and Junbe and Duffy and others to help me, and I really appreciate them.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

Goldenboy said:


> Did the subject of this change to simply naming successful amateurs? If so, BORING! I'd be interested in reading about good amateur trainers, regardless of what pro may have trained them, and what these amateurs bring to their training group.


That's what I was thinking and why I asked Dan to clarify. I wasn't sure how this thread was to be different than the other amateur threads. 

The answers that actually tell a little about the trainers are interesting.



daviddeevee said:


> Does Melanie run dogs or train her dogs?


Who?


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

Granted, I have trained with the guy for a long time, and have been accused of all sorts of things (from being a sleazebag groupie to worshiping an 'idol' - which is kindof scary), but anyone who has trained with him can attest to the fact that Newt Cropper is an incredible Amateur trainer.

He can get more out of an average dog than anyone I have ever seen (and I have seen a lot). He can make a good dog shine. And a great dog? Sky's the limit. 

When the folks who make the videos call you for advice, well . . . you must be part dog. He can tell you what a dog will do before he'll do it.

Many other successful ams were not successful until they trained with him for a while.


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## thunderdan (Oct 14, 2003)

Newt is a great trainer and he is a pretty decent competitor. I can remember one of my first Am's I ran and I guess he could tell I was pretty nervous. He came over and gave me a few words of advise on how to run the test to be successful. It was a pretty classy thing to do. If I ever get to the skill level or the point that I am able to do the same thing I plan on paying it forward.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Sondra, I am puttng in for my 21 days with Newt right now for 2009.

Have your people call my people

john


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Why are they all so far away?


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

captdan said:


> Kristie,
> 
> What you said. I have been fortunate to train with two trainers whom I consider outstanding.
> 
> ...




I had the "pleasure" of training with Barton for several months......I even got to drive him to the airport and watch his dogs while he was on vaction:razz:

He is an aquired taste for sure....But his abilities with a retriever are second to none!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

The best amateur that I ever trained with 21 days or more in one year isn't an amateur any longer, but he was then and it was Jerry Day.

First, Jerry's knowledge is immense. He has forgotten more about dog training that I'll ever likely know.

Jerry has very nice grounds and has always been generous with them toward the local retriever clubs. Jerry does a great job of reading dogs. He has a genuine love for the dogs and as a training partner he got excited when YOUR dog did well. He would also chew me out pretty well when I screwed up, which was much needed and appreciated...later he was always worried that he had hurt my feelings but he needn't have worried.

You'll never spend time with anyone more conscious of and concerned with being fair to the dog(s) than Jerry. I have never seen him come close to losing his temper with a dog and he doesn't look favorably on those who use excessive force regardless of their success.

Jerry is a teacher of dogs and trainers.

One of the cool things about Jerry (along with his generosity, big heart and genuine love of retrievers) is that even with the great success he has had in Field Trials, SRS and Hunt Tests he can still get excited about rooting for someone's hunt test dog of little breeding (like mine). He doesn't look down his nose at anybody. There are MANY people who have accomplished MUCH less who cannot make that claim.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

John Cavanaugh, the best true amatuer that I've ever had the pleasure to train with. Best quote: "We're getting ahead of some people today" (After training 12 hrs in a driving rain.

Bruce Mitchel, cut our teeth training our first dogs together. friend, training partner, mentor. Best man with a Chesapeake that I've ever seen!

Best quote: "I got some lager, want one?"


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

thunderdan said:


> Newt is a great trainer and he is a pretty decent competitor. I can remember one of my first Am's I ran and I guess he could tell I was pretty nervous. He came over and gave me a few words of advise on how to run the test to be successful. It was a pretty classy thing to do. If I ever get to the skill level or the point that I am able to do the same thing I plan on paying it forward.


I'll second that . And ask Newt to tell you the thermos joke . I stole it from him . Its PDF.


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## rdwnc80 (Jan 8, 2009)

The best I know of around my area, is chad autry ( see [email protected]). Very good with dogs of all nature. Check out his website, he his recommended by top breeders in this part of North Carolina, and very reasonable in price for the time he puts in with the dogs. Don't have to worry about dogs being mistreated or abused, because when they are with Chad they are like one of his on family members.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Based on his success the past two years, I would have to put Al Wilson's name on the list.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> Jerry Day.
> 
> One of the cool things about Jerry (along with his generosity, big heart and genuine love of retrievers) is that even with the great success he has had in Field Trials, SRS and Hunt Tests he can still get excited about rooting for someone's hunt test dog of little breeding (like mine). He doesn't look down his nose at anybody. There are MANY people who have accomplished MUCH less who cannot make that claim.


How true. I ran a Q against Jerry recently...... I finished the water blind and heard this loud clapping, and then this guy, that I hadn't seen in a couple of years (he's lost weight and his beard) was patting me on the back.... he did the same when my dog got QAAd.... a true gentleman and competitor.


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## Boomer (May 13, 2006)

NEWT CROPPER
All you need to know. 
If you have not trained with him you would not know.

GO NEWT


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Tim West said:


> Based on his success the past two years, I would have to put Al Wilson's name on the list.


Plus he's a good guy.


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## Prairie Hill's (Sep 23, 2007)

My vote #1 vote goes to a very good Amateur trainer my 
Dad-Earl Dillow.:razz:

Corrine Clavey


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## TY 4 (Dec 22, 2006)

Prairie Hill's said:


> My vote #1 vote goes to a very good Amateur trainer my
> Dad-Earl Dillow.:razz:
> 
> Corrine Clavey


Yes he is!!!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

After meeting Judy Aycock I would have second her.


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