# Top Black Labradors at Stud?



## bsandersortho (Oct 12, 2008)

I would like to know the forum's opinion on the top proven (includes success of offspring) black labradors at stud.

I have not been able to keep up with web site or journals lately; so, I could use some help in refining the list.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

When you find out, let me know. There seems to be a large crop of somewhat unproven studs that all have their pluses and minuses. You've got to go back to deceased dogs that have very expensive fees or limited availability to find a really "proven" stud.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I dunno Charles. I'm beginning to think that Grady is on the proven side.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

FC AFC Land Ahoy (Pirate)


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

Retriever Results has a section on top sires and dams (look under Milestones) that reflects progeny that have finished field trials. It includes total progeny, # FC/AFC Titles, # with AA pts, Derby list, and averages for each catgory. Also ncludes breakdowns by stake (Open, Amateur) and Derby. It will be extended to the hunt test arena at some point as well. Data is from 2005 to present. Hope this helps!


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I'll amend my answer. FC-AFC Fen Wizzard has shown to be a proven producer. His pups have done well in the derby, and I believe a higher percentage of his pups are transitioning successfully to the all age stakes at a younger age than the dogs mentioned above. The problem with Fen is he sired my bitch, and I can't use him as a sire.


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Well Gman pups had a very good weekend Charlie Moody won the open with Jack to get his FC, thats 2 open wins and a open 2nd for a dog that turns 3 in May. Ester Mccartney text me yesterday Rylee earned her AFC yesterday she is a three year old. Clint Joyner got 3rd in the Am yesterday with Big Boy a three year old and high point derby dog. My cowner and training partner Mark Chase got 4th in the am yesterday with Trav who is out of the first Gman litter and is a 4yr old who needs 2 points for his FC. Nick Elam won the Q a blueridge with his gman pup. I think the last count I had Gman was getting close to 30 QAA offspring with his oldest being 4yrs old.


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Very nice, Chad and Gman!


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## Jim Harvey (Feb 7, 2007)

Chad Baker said:


> Well Gman pups had a very good weekend Charlie Moody won the open with Jack to get his FC, thats 2 open wins and a open 2nd for a dog that turns 3 in May. Ester Mccartney text me yesterday Rylee earned her AFC yesterday she is a three year old. Clint Joyner got 3rd in the Am yesterday with Big Boy a three year old and high point derby dog. My cowner and training partner Mark Chase got 4th in the am yesterday with Trav who is out of the first Gman litter and is a 4yr old who needs 2 points for his FC. Nick Elam won the Q a blueridge with his gman pup. I think the last count I had Gman was getting close to 30 QAA offspring with his oldest being 4yrs old.


You are darn right Chad, lots to be VERY proud about right there!


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Charles C. said:


> When you find out, let me know. There seems to be a large crop of somewhat unproven studs that all have their pluses and minuses. You've got to go back to deceased dogs that have very expensive fees or limited availability to find a really "proven" stud.


how could you say that grady is not a great sire? he will pass lean mac as the top sire in the field trial world.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

kip said:


> how could you say that grady is not a great sire? he will pass lean mac as the top sire in the field trial world.


I didn't say that. It's hard for a dog Grady's age to be a really proven sire. The bitches make as much difference as the stud. Time will tell.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Charles C. said:


> I'll amend my answer. FC-AFC Fen Wizzard has shown to be a proven producer. His pups have done well in the derby, and I believe a higher percentage of his pups are transitioning successfully to the all age stakes at a younger age than the dogs mentioned above. The problem with Fen is he sired my bitch, and I can't use him as a sire.


how has fen proven himself more than grady?


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

kip said:


> how has fen proven himself more than grady?


I don't know that he has. I'm just saying Fen has a pretty high percentage of pups doing well considering the low number of times he has been bred. Could be that Fen's breedings were limited to better bitches. It's all an opinion. Have a nice day.


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## mohaled (Oct 7, 2007)

I have seen quite a few grady pups running in derbys and ams, I like what I saw.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

kip said:


> how could you say that grady is not a great sire? *he will pass lean mac as the top sire in the field trial world.*


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

Google Thomas Merit Award, Field Trial News, (outstanding sires for field trial dogs)
also look at findretrievers.com (point leaders)


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

Chad Baker said:


> Well Gman pups had a very good weekend Charlie Moody won the open with Jack to get his FC, thats 2 open wins and a open 2nd for a dog that turns 3 in May. Ester Mccartney text me yesterday Rylee earned her AFC yesterday she is a three year old. Clint Joyner got 3rd in the Am yesterday with Big Boy a three year old and high point derby dog. My cowner and training partner Mark Chase got 4th in the am yesterday with Trav who is out of the first Gman litter and is a 4yr old who needs 2 points for his FC. Nick Elam won the Q a blueridge with his gman pup. I think the last count I had Gman was getting close to 30 QAA offspring with his oldest being 4yrs old.


Hey Chad, don't forget about Trigger the 6 mth Gman pup... JR Pass at the Weber River Retriever Club Hunt Test, not quite the same league but showing some promiss.... Just hoping he can keep up the family name.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Chad Baker said:


> Well Gman pups had a very good weekend Charlie Moody won the open with Jack to get his FC, thats 2 open wins and a open 2nd for a dog that turns 3 in May. Ester Mccartney text me yesterday Rylee earned her AFC yesterday she is a three year old. Clint Joyner got 3rd in the Am yesterday with Big Boy a three year old and high point derby dog. My cowner and training partner Mark Chase got 4th in the am yesterday with Trav who is out of the first Gman litter and is a 4yr old who needs 2 points for his FC. Nick Elam won the Q a blueridge with his gman pup. I think the last count I had Gman was getting close to 30 QAA offspring with his oldest being 4yrs old.


Chad,

Wendy Buckler placed 3rd in the am last weekend. Repo is from JoJo and Grady's litter. Repo placed 2nd in the open a couple weeks ago and has a couple more AA placements this spring. Oh yea, she turned 3 April 22nd.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

IF that ever happens we have a long way to go. 30 qaa offspring vs. 150+ FC AFC and 11 national champions. Long way to go but I give praise to any stud dog that is in demand. Whether any dog ever breaks lean Mac... dunno.


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## Jim Spagna (Apr 21, 2008)

If we're allowed to include non-field trialers, I would nominate GHRCH SRSC Barkley's Yankee Thunder MH. Boomer sired a LOT of nice pups and , although he is no longer "standing" at stud, that doesn't mean he can no longer sire some more.


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

I took a few minutes to count up QAA pups from Gman I counted 45 so far and I'm sure I missed some. Trav is out of his first litter and he turns 5 in october his second litter was a year later so the majority of his pups are 3 or younger. Do I think he will ever pass Lean Mac? Not at all, not enough breedings because we are pretty selective and look for the bitches to have MH/QAA as a minimum requirement in most cases except were I see a exceptional pedigree. As of this weekend he has 2 titled dogs thats it not a huge amount by any means. I remember when I started looking for a pup I knew i wanted Code Blue in the pedigree and was lucky to find Fargo's sister bred to him. At that time Fargo puppies were tearing up the derby circuit and now he has established himself as a great producer also with a bunch of great titled dogs. It takes great pedigrees, good training, time, money, and lots of love to make FC's. I look forward to breeding some of the bitches out of Fargo sons in the future those could be special in my mind.
Chad


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Chad Baker said:


> I remember when I started looking for a pup I knew i wanted Code Blue in the pedigree and was lucky to find Fargo's sister bred to him. At that time Fargo puppies were tearing up the derby circuit and now he has established himself as a great producer also with a bunch of great titled dogs. It takes great pedigrees, good training, time, money, and lots of love to make FC's. I look forward to breeding some of the bitches out of Fargo sons in the future those could be special in my mind.
> Chad


"Breeding bitches out of Fargo sons" -- IMHO you're on the right track. Also consider breeding to bitches out of Carbon sons. (There are other sons out there other than Chopper.) That's what I am looking for when I study pedigrees. I have said this before ... a little Cosmo goes a long way, but you gotta have him somewhere, and the "somewhere" for me is Carbon.

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

PS - or breeding to bitches out of Carbon daughters or granddaughters. Have to add that since that's the view from my chair. 
Helen


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Helen i had pup from our breeding with a carbon daughter that had 21 derby points in 10 trials and got qaa in his first q at 17 months. That carbon is strong stuff i really like the heavy bone structure and look. Coal will be a good aa dog . Mac Dubose is about ready to start running him soon.
chad


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Growing up a Cosmo daughter with zero Lean Mac now that may visit Grady some day, they do definitely have heavy bone structure.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

They do have heavy bone structure. Our Cosmo>Carbon>Ruby is a tall, strong, hard-muscled 80-82 lb. bitch. That's her field trial running weight. See my avatar which is Ruby when she was 4 years old. She looks the same today, except with a few white hairs on her chin. 

Ruby has been bred twice (2 different sires). We got 85-90 lb. males and 75-80 lb. bitches in both litters. The female we kept from her first litter is now 3-1/2 years old. She is the same size and looks just like her mom. Her trial running weight is 78 lbs.
Don wouldn't have it any other way. He loves big, black, powerful strong swimming bitches. 

Helen


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

helencalif said:


> "Breeding bitches out of Fargo sons" -- IMHO you're on the right track. Also consider breeding to bitches out of Carbon sons. (There are other sons out there other than Chopper.) That's what I am looking for when I study pedigrees. I have said this before ... a little Cosmo goes a long way, but you gotta have him somewhere, and the "somewhere" for me is Carbon.
> 
> Helen


No Carbon son has the achievements in the field or in breeding like Chopper does. That's just the facts of life. 

Another thing, hiding Cosmo like that isn't exactly having him in any form or fashion as a part of a breeding. Certainly not appreciably. You don't have to have Cosmo, but if you do, you certainly don't have to hide from him. I'm so very thankful that other people see things this way. If they didn't, there would be no Ali. IMO, there simply is no finer dog. From the incredible talent, to his superb personality, & not to mention his staggering good looks.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> No Carbon son has the achievements in the field or in breeding like Chopper does. That's just the facts of life.
> 
> You are definitely right about Chopper's achievements in the field and his talented progeny. We have trained with and competed against some of them.
> 
> ...


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> No Carbon son has the achievements in the field or in breeding like Chopper does. That's just the facts of life.
> 
> Another thing, hiding Cosmo like that isn't exactly having him in any form or fashion as a part of a breeding. Certainly not appreciably. You don't have to have Cosmo, but if you do, you certainly don't have to hide from him. I'm so very thankful that other people see things this way. If they didn't, there would be no Ali. IMO, there simply is no finer dog. *From the incredible talent, to his superb personality, & not to mention his staggering good looks.*


Does Bobby Lane know you're stalking his dog?


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Damn near spit water everywhere.


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

Can you guys keep this thread going? It sure is something to read and I feel 10x smarter about some of these lines.


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## allydeer (May 11, 2008)

i just got my carbon grand pup and on her dam side is weezer and windy are the grandma and grandpa i am very excited to have her.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Ill have to second Charles post about Fen. He has been bred so few times and I'm getting sick of competitive against his offspring already Another stud that consistently throws great pups is Ranger. If I had my druthers I'd own one of each!


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

Charles C. said:


> Does Bobby Lane know you're stalking his dog?



Ha, then I am guilty of that as well. I have to agree with what Jacob Hawkes said concerning Ali....


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Chad Baker said:


> Helen i had pup from our breeding with a carbon daughter that had 21 derby points in 10 trials and got qaa in his first q at 17 months. That carbon is strong stuff i really like the heavy bone structure and look. Coal will be a good aa dog . Mac Dubose is about ready to start running him soon.
> chad


I will have me a Grady pup one day Chad. I don't know when but it will happen eventually.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

what happened to the owner handler am. thread?


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

kip said:


> what happened to the owner handler am. thread?


I was wondering the same thing.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

kip said:


> what happened to the owner handler am. thread?


I think someone starting mentioning "alledged offenders"


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

rboudet said:


> I think someone starting mentioning "alledged offenders"


 whats wrong with that? problem might get resolved.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i have no problem with co-ownership. mark and i co-owned all our dogs together. but when you have say 8 dogs and 8 different co-owners smells funny


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

kip said:


> what happened to the owner handler am. thread?


It turned personal and got ugly. That is why it was removed.

Kip, in the future, come directly to me please 217-454-0361 [email protected] if you have a question like this. Don't make it public, please.

The thread in question resulted in my having to spend time on the phone with some folks. Time I did not have.

I'm all for RTF being used to discuss rule changes, and generalized topics around things to improve the sport. RTF is not here to call out specific folks who are playing by today's rules and accuse them of cheating. I find it cowardly for folks posting under "handles" to do such a thing, calling out a specific competitor, but failing to identify themselves. And no Kip, that's not you that I'm referencing. 

When it comes down to there being a specific complaint about a specific person, that is the time for folks to step up and do something about it. Don't gripe about it on the internet (especially without identifying yourself). If you really want to do something, then file a complaint with the governing body, as a real person, with a real name, and put some true effort into it.

Chris


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## CSX (Nov 9, 2011)

Coming back to the original question, it would be interesting to learn about specific traits which are attributed to the sires mentioned here which may be important for a puppy buyer, such as tractability, line manners etc.

Thanks
Christian


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

Brian Cockfield said:


> I will have me a Grady pup one day Chad. I don't know when but it will happen eventually.



Hopefully I will also..... shortly. As long as mother nature cooperates and delivers enough males. I should know June 2nd or around that time frame.


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## Labs a mundo (Mar 20, 2009)

Chad Baker said:


> I think the last count I had Gman was getting close to 30 QAA offspring with his oldest being 4yrs old.


I'll let you know as soon as my Grady X Audie pup is QAA!!


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

I will have to take Old Pirate myself..pretty good kind of a dog.


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## Dave S (Aug 21, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> When you find out, let me know. There seems to be a large crop of somewhat unproven studs that all have their pluses and minuses. You've got to go back to deceased dogs that have very expensive fees or limited availability to find a really "proven" stud.


Charles,
I had owned a Fen pup out the same breeding that you own that was very vocal so I sold him. The new owner had to put him down due to a intestinal disease that was uncureable. Not to say Fen doesn't throw nice pups. See a lot of them on the west coast with A list trainers. If I was to do it again, I would try Merlyn his bro.
Now I own a G man pup that I couldn't be happier with. Really stylish and QAA. Never running trials before, I ran 4 Qs last year and went 4 for 4. 3 jams and 1 r jam. My pro had to get him QAA. I still have a lot to learn.
Needless to say, I will own another G man puppy. Seen a few in CO that are really nice. Ester's and Robby's to name a couple. Good luck with your pup next weekend in OK.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Of the dogs that ran several derbies against Beans, Ike is the only one she never could beat. His breeding is superb & he's just awfully nice. If Fen was factored, he'd get a lot more breedings. The sucker just throws markers. Plain & simple.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

IMO more people would breed to Fen Wizzard if they saw him run, he was on the shelf for almost a year with an injury and his handler runs a limited schedule but has recently started running him in the Amateur and recently completed his AFC to go along with the FC..the boy can flat out mark...and he seems to throw that trait in pups he sires


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Grady is an awesome stud! We have a Grady pup that is almost two and is phenominal.


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