# British Labs



## blackrat (Mar 19, 2011)

Hello All

I'm looking for a source for British Labs in the North East or Georgia.

I've trained a few dogs ( Goldens & Labs ) HRC etc.

This will likely be my last dog & do not want another "Firebreather"

The You tube videos show British hunts with dogs more my speed.

Quiet.......and reserved.

They'll run HRC tests and hunt Big water but they will be pets first.

I've found many sites but most are in the Mid West.

1100 miles is too far. Closer would be better.

Thanks

Mike


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Do you know about the "British Lab Tax" which is added on to the sale of all British Labs sold in the USA?


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Here we go


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

ssssshhh!!!


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Do you know about the "British Lab Tax" which is added on to the sale of all British Labs sold in the USA?


Isn"t it called the Tea Bag tax ? If I remember correctly it was put into action in 1969.


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## Northernstorm (Apr 27, 2011)

Dont start yet, I gotta go get some popcorn!! Anyone need a coke?


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Do you know about the "British Lab Tax" which is added on to the sale of all British Labs sold in the USA?


Isn't that the tax Peirce Morgan wanted the potus to sign an executive order to implement?? I heard a rumor that the rich british breeders are targeted to pay for their fair share of dog taxes.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Just buy a coupla cinder blocks.

Cheaper to feed and just as effective regards

Bubba


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I would call Tom Ness in North Dakota.

http://www.oahekennels.com/drupal/

Tom is best known as a top Cocker pro but he's a very gifted & knowledgable all around gun dog man. I saw him this weekend at a Spaniel Trial and we discussed some British bred lab pups he has on the ground. If he says they're the "real deal", I believe him.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)




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## Northernstorm (Apr 27, 2011)

Charles C. said:


>


luv it:wink:


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

Sent you a PM


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

OHHHH, Mitty Renee, I'm so sorry!!! Charles has trumped you! Best popcorn smiley face ever!

But seriously, Blackrat, sorry everyone is being silly on your thread. As a Golden person, I have to put up with it all the time, too. The British labs seem like great dogs and perhaps a great choice for you! I wish you luck with your new pup.

Jennifer


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I heard it can be hard to register foreign dogs in the USA.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Do you know about the "British Lab Tax" which is added on to the sale of all British Labs sold in the USA?


Is it something to do with the Canadian government- secret taxes??


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## knash3 (May 17, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I heard it can be hard to register foreign dogs in the USA.


Yes, but they get free healthcare and in-state tuition for any US college!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

well, if I was in the north east (hey I am) I would ask that very nice lawyer from New Hampshire.
I cannot remember her name. she comes and runs our hunt tests. Gosh who was it? Margo Help Me!
You used to train with her I think.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I heard it can be hard to register foreign dogs in the USA.


Our President is working on that.;-)


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I heard it can be hard to register foreign dogs in the USA.


naw, the AKC has a form for it. just give um more $$$$
been doin' it for years http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ADIMPT_1112_stat.pdf
.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I understand that the majority of the "British Lab Tax" is spent on marketing.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

British Lab......hmmmm....Didn't know there was such a thing. Can't seem to find it in the CKC, AKC or the KC.

American Labs, British Labs pffft...I'll stick with my Canadian Lab, the best of the bunch


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Scum Frog said:


> British Lab......hmmmm....Didn't know there was such a thing. Can't seem to find it in the CKC, AKC or the KC.
> 
> American Labs, British Labs pffft...I'll stick with my Canadian Lab, the best of the bunch


There must be. I was out walking my lab and a guy had a young lab puppy. I asked how old his little lab was and he said "It is not a Lab, it is a British Labrador" He then made a snide comment about otter tails which hurt my dog's feelings very much since he can't help it if his tail is a little on the narrow side. I still see this douche out and about. Dog is about three years old now, probably pushes 150 lbs and can hardly walk.


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

DoubleHaul said:


> There must be. I was out walking my lab and a guy had a young lab puppy. I asked how old his little lab was and he said "It is not a Lab, it is a British Labrador" He then made a snide comment about otter tails which hurt my dog's feelings very much since he can't help it if his tail is a little on the narrow side. I still see this douche out and about. Dog is about three years old now, probably pushes 150 lbs and can hardly walk.



Pretty funny!


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

So if I can ask a serious question, and maybe get a serious response, what should those of us call the lab that we purchased if one or both parents were imported from the UK, and we got a pup from that line, call it? Am I being a snob when I say I have a British lab? I'm not trying to be. I didn't think it was that big of a deal.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Erik Vigeland said:


> So if I can ask a serious question, and maybe get a serious response, what should those of us call the lab that we purchased if one or both parents were imported from the UK, and we got a pup from that line, call it? Am I being a snob when I say I have a British lab? I'm not trying to be. I didn't think it was that big of a deal.


A Lab  or the Politically Correct Terms for those who like many words; Lab imported from Britain, or Lab of UK-British origin, of course you got to put in Field Lab or Bench Lab in front 

People get in a twist simply because the term British Lab is used by many as a Marketing poly in the States for American labs, often times without health clearances, no British field titles, which would show them to be of proven English stock, and dogs that have not had any true-direct British lines ancestry for numerous generations.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

A Labradore. They all originated from the same place and defining a single dog as "British" doesn't make any sense what-so-ever except for marketing purposes. As Chesapeakes become more popular in Europe, do you think breeders in EU should charge more and call their Chesapeakes, "American Chesapeakes"?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> "American Chesapeakes"?


Good Gawd No!!! They will be labeled something much more appealing, most like Canadian Chesapeakes, maybe Chesapeake RT imported from directly from Chesapeake Bay, by way of Canada. Wouldn't want anything labeled as unruly or outrageous as being American, heck in a few generations and they'll probably be sold back to us as being British Chessies LOL


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Thank GOD dogs aren't as picky about our ancestry as we are theirs!!!:shock:


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

I guess I never thought it was that big of a deal, but I've seen the way posters are treated on here if they say it, therefore I try to never type it, lest I get verbally beat up. I will remove it from my vernacular altogether.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Erik Vigeland said:


> I guess I never thought it was that big of a deal, but I've seen the way posters are treated on here if they say it, therefore I try to never type it, lest I get verbally beat up. I will remove it from my vernacular altogether.


"Get the dog you love, love the dog you get!"


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## Scott R. (Mar 13, 2012)

DoubleHaul said:


> There must be. I was out walking my lab and a guy had a young lab puppy. I asked how old his little lab was and he said "It is not a Lab, it is a British Labrador" He then made a snide comment about otter tails which hurt my dog's feelings very much since he can't help it if his tail is a little on the narrow side. I still see this douche out and about. Dog is about three years old now, probably pushes 150 lbs and can hardly walk.


DoubleHaul, beware the guy who walks in our neighborhood with a boxer. You've been warned.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Seems to me that "British Labs" in America are bred with one thing in mind.....looks. Maybe it's sheer coincidence, but you won't find many "British Labs" over in the Masters Series' at a hunt test. Just my observation.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't see any difference between a British bred dog and an American bred dog ! There isn't much difference between the owners either?
I wouldn't have any problem having an American Bred dog either! That opportunity isn't likely to happen too often though, because I ain't seen one over here.?
Unless you guys can tell me different?


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

polmaise said:


> I don't see any difference between a British bred dog and an American bred dog ! There isn't much difference between the owners either?
> I wouldn't have any problem having an American Bred dog either! That opportunity isn't likely to happen too often though, because I ain't seen one over here.?
> Unless you guys can tell me different?


There's a lot of difference in temperament, drive, and looks. Now that's just a "general" observation. Doesn't mean there aren't definitely exceptions to that. Doesn't mean all American labs have more drive, or that all British labs don't. It just seems like more than coincidence that British Labs do not rise to the level of training generally speaking.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I am not a Lab person but is the breed standard exactly the same---AKC vs. England?

I know that NYPD won't buy an American bred German Shepherd Dog for k9 service but goes to Germany instead. I think country of origin is important in this case due to a different breed standard. 

Erik Vigeland, what was your reason for buying the dog? Did you purposely look for a "British Lab"?

I know one thing for sure as far as goldens go---there are goldens and there are goldens. And I think it might be appropriate to describe one as "English Import", "Canadian Championship", "sired by _______from Norway". This tells me something about what the dog might look like. I personally don't think that I would be as bothered by this question as Lab owners are but then again I am not a Lab owner.

I'm sorry but I think that the forum may be awfully tough on people who don't have as much involvement as many of the long time serious dog people on here.

Just my opinion. I would hate to turn someone away from the forum.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

In USA 'British Lab' seems to mean one of either two things:
A. A show bred lab (large), bench lab (not really much use for trialling/hunting) or
B. A lab from a 'designer kennel' that is being marketed as 'British' to give it a point of difference, from American FT labs (this may be from 'British' working stock, but is probably most likely to be from Irish stock actually....)

In either case, it is unlikely to be a current British Field Trialling prospect (although a few over here do sell on to America, but usually dogs that are not making the grade here.....).

So, to clear up a couple of things, British labs over here (in Britain), fall into two distinct categories now:
a. working bred field trialling stock
b. show bred
And there is a HUGE gulf between the two. (we've not had a dual champion here for decades.... and I very much doubt there will ever be one again).


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

jb504079 said:


> There's a lot of difference in temperament, drive, and looks. Now that's just a "general" observation. Doesn't mean there aren't definitely exceptions to that. Doesn't mean all American labs have more drive, or that all British labs don't. It just seems like more than coincidence that British Labs do not rise to the level of training generally speaking.


If we stay on the rails of 'Field trial' British labs ?(as the show strain IMO) has gone a different route. I agree ,but these are only subtle differences really?.and perhaps due to the training techniques which are not bred for in each others yard? Temperament is 'priority' within the British scene! ,but then if you were to compare the meaning of 'temperament' across the water ,you may get a different conclusion (or breed line).
Question: Is there not a single British bred Lab ever won a trial or test ,or attained championship level in the US?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Didn't a dog in Britain have to have some kind of an accomplishment in field as well as conformation in order to be called a champion?


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

polmaise said:


> If we stay on the rails of 'Field trial' British labs ?(as the show strain IMO) has gone a different route. I agree ,but these are only subtle differences really?.and perhaps due to the training techniques which are not bred for in each others yard? Temperament is 'priority' within the British scene! ,but then if you were to compare the meaning of 'temperament' across the water ,you may get a different conclusion (or breed line).
> Question: Is there not a single British bred Lab ever won a trial or test ,or attained championship level in the US?


I'm certain there has been, which is why I pointed to the "exception" to a seemingly general rule. Temperament is paramount in England, and it's more of a docile temperament. Again, just my opinion, but it seems 90% of "British Labs" in America are more of your "show dogs" and not necessarily fire breathing trialers. I hope I'm not giving an impression of disdain for British style Labs, they're beautiful. Just not the cup of tea duck hunters and field trial people are looking for.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> Didn't a dog in Britain have to have some kind of an accomplishment in field as well as conformation in order to be called a champion?


The title 'Champion' is usually associated with 'SHOW' dogs.
The Title FTCH -Field trial Champion is related to those in Field Trials.(Game)
You will find more Hens teeth than you will find a 'DUAL Champion' (although there is a couple in history)  talking Labrador here not 'Pointing breeds of which there are a few!
Edited ...Just seen KM ,Clarify more.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

gdgnyc said:


> Didn't a dog in Britain have to have some kind of an accomplishment in field as well as conformation in order to be called a champion?


No, to become a Show Champion they don't. To be called just Champion they have to have some sort of 'working' qualification which is usually the KC Working Gundog Certificate (which can be done on dummies) and is a bit of a joke.... Nothing like running in a trial.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

jb504079 said:


> There's a lot of difference in temperament, drive, and looks. Now that's just a "general" observation. ... It just seems like more than coincidence that British Labs do not rise to the level of training generally speaking.


This is just a general inquiry, but what have you done personally to rise them to any level of training? Or know, generally, about anybody who has?

You know, like in running AA stakes since oh 15-16 months old










Next you'll be telling us, generally, that they can't be trained for water either










because it generally hurts their British teeth.

MG


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

crackerd said:


> This is just a general inquiry, but what have you done personally to rise them to any level of training? Or know, generally, about anybody who has?
> 
> You know, like in running AA stakes since oh 15-16 months old
> 
> ...


See I knew some bloke would take my comments the wrong way. Personally, I've never owned nor trained a "British Lab". My OBSERVATION is what I shared, and what I've OBSERVED is that there aren't many British Labs dominating hunt test, field trials, or occupying the majority of duck blinds. They are in dog shows. I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone, but it appears this is a touchy subject for some.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

> To be called just Champion they have to have some sort of 'working' qualification which is usually the KC Working Gundog Certificate (which can be done on dummies) and is a bit of a joke.... Nothing like running in a trial.


Thanks, km, for clarifying for some here who posit the same thing year after year about a field title "requirement" before a British Lab can become a show champion - and vice versa. I think they will still want to persist with their beliefs in the Cottingley Faeries, however...

MG


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

gdgnyc said:


> Erik Vigeland, what was your reason for buying the dog? Did you purposely look for a "British Lab"?


Man, I hate to even answer this, as I know I will get blasted, but here I go:

My previous lab was a big yellow boy, named Kody. I loved him to death, but he was in that 90-100 lbs weight.








He was also very loving, but to the point where, because of his size, he could be a bit overwhelming. Blame it on bad obedience training, but he was my first dog.

So there's some background on my first dog. Now on to the rest of the story....

I'm a pheasant hunter. Kody was a machine, but because of his size he would go through things instead of being more agile. He would also tire out quickly. So for my next dog I was looking for smaller size, and a more calm dog, but with a ton of drive.

A local kennel had exactly what I was looking for and imports labs from primarily Ireland. We got Teegan last June.








I hunted with him at 6 months, and he is everything I was hoping he would be. He still gets pretty excited when people come over, but he's at about a 5, where Kody was at a 10. He's now about 10 months and weighs about 60 lbs.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

I still say the Canadian Labs are best

Loves real beer
Doesn't mind the snow and cold, actually loves the snow and cold
Misqutoes don't bother him
Can do blinds on a hockey rink like no other Lab can.
Is generally well liked by other Labs from other country of origins.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

I think the best thing to do is stop describing these different dogs as "British" or "American", but rather "show bred" and "field bred". I think that's what most people are referring to when discussing/debating the two types of dogs.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Question: Is there not a single British bred Lab ever won a trial or test ,or attained championship level in the US?


Good question, Robt. - there are some field trial historians on this site, armchair and actual historians alike who may have specifics but I wouldn't be surprised it were 65-70 years since a British-bred import won an American all-age retriever trial. There are a couple of QAA dogs around and likely more than a couple with Master Hunter titles but you don't win a hunt test.

I would also be interested in knowing the last time a British-bred import won a Canadian open trial.

Now if you were asking about British-bred American trial-winning Goldens - hmm.

I hope some of those historians - junbe, you out there, or criquepas, or lanse? - will chime in with what they know. A few others of us - the odd and miniscule in more ways than one minority - are aspiring to that blue ribbon. Of course, our "British" Labs were probably bred in places like Nebraska, or Minnesota, so we'd have to be an asterisk alongside any "winning" answer about British Labs.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

jb504079 said:


> Personally, I've never owned nor trained a "British Lab". My OBSERVATION is what I shared, and what I've OBSERVED is that there aren't many British Labs dominating hunt test, field trials, or occupying the majority of duck blinds. *They are in dog shows*. I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone, but it appears this is a touchy subject for some.


Not touchy here mate! and No offence! There ain't many 'merican' or 'Canadian' bred dogs over here either?. but that's just geography! and availability, hell, I've got a pick of crop around the county here ,so why Travel? (for what I want,and require)..As for dog's with va va voom!?...Ask any Pro Gun dog trainer or Trialler over here ,and they would all agree that they would have one that has 'Go Go Go', rather than 'Driving Miss Daisy'!!..and that's what they 'breed for' (In trials) ...I can't answer the question what You observe mate, You are in a Larger continent than me!..It surprises me that you don't see/observe many in the Duck blinds however, because we also 'strive' for Game finding ability above all else!! ,but then The pedigree is not recorded for those wonderful retrieves at last light over 2 acres of swamp! to get the bird.
....


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

jb504079 said:


> I think the best thing to do is stop describing these different dogs as "British" or "American", but rather "show bred" and "field bred". I think that's what most people are referring to when discussing/debating the two types of dogs.


 
By George I think You've got it! Blimp will be so impressed
All the best


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Erik Vigeland said:


> Man, I hate to even answer this, as I know I will get blasted, but here I go:
> 
> My previous lab was a big yellow boy, named Kody. I loved him to death, but he was in that 90-100 lbs weight.
> View attachment 11352
> ...


It sounds like you did your homework and were not taken in by some marketing, you were looking for a certain trait(s).

Personally, my own choice of golden for pheasant hunting is: not big, bold, and as hard driving as they come. I will tolerate the very high energy level because I like what I get in the uplands. And I tend to hunt for hours. The bigger dogs I have done this with---I'll go out on a limb here---lose some steam. 

I get what you are looking for. I think you got exactly what the breeder was selling. You have a hunting dog, probably good breeding, that is not over the top. Not all dogs are the same.

Good luck with Teegan.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

polmaise said:


> Not touchy here mate! and No offence! There ain't many 'merican' or 'Canadian' bred dogs over here either?. but that's just geography! and availability, hell, I've got a pick of crop around the county here ,so why Travel? (for what I want,and require)..As for dog's with va va voom!?...Ask any Pro Gun dog trainer or Trialler over here ,and they would all agree that they would have one that has 'Go Go Go', rather than 'Driving Miss Daisy'!!..and that's what they 'breed for' (In trials) ...I can't answer the question what You observe mate, You are in a Larger continent than me!..It surprises me that you don't see/observe many in the Duck blinds however, because we also 'strive' for Game finding ability above all else!! ,but then The pedigree is not recorded for those wonderful retrieves at last light over 2 acres of swamp! to get the bird.
> ....


Perhaps that's what drives opinions over here. The majority of "British" style labs aren't trial dogs or working retrievers. Over there? Maybe they are. There's no hard and fast rule, which I said from the very beginning. But I guess people hear what they wanna hear.....


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Thank you kennel maiden.


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

jb504079 said:


> See I knew some bloke would take my comments the wrong way. Personally, I've never owned nor trained a "British Lab". My OBSERVATION is what I shared, and what I've OBSERVED is that there aren't many British Labs dominating hunt test, field trials, or occupying the majority of duck blinds. They are in dog shows. I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone, but it appears this is a touchy subject for some.


JB, I have to believe you're confusing British "show-bred" Labs when you make such an observation. It's very common to find Labs of British "field-bred" ancestry in hunt tests and duck blinds.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Kirk Keene said:


> JB, I have to believe you're confusing British "show-bred" Labs when you make such an observation. It's very common to find Labs of British "field-bred" ancestry in hunt tests and duck blinds.


No confusion. I know the difference. Point I was making is the majority of "British" style labs in America simply aren't gun dogs. Are there British gun dogs of great quality? Sure. I'm just not a fan of arguing the exception. Most of them in America are bred for looks. The lab is the most popular dog in America, and has been for decades. Now I know that many people aren't duck hunting with those dogs....they buy for looks. And if that's what you're going for (looks and docile temperament), a British Lab is the way to go. I don't know why this offends so many people????


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

This is the sire of my pup. He is not a show dog...









And he is an import from Ireland...


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

JB, actually you are mistaken. Bench/Show labs here in America are referred to (erroneously at that) as "ENGLISH". The Field trial lines of UK dogs are referred to as "British".

The larger dog in my avatar is UK bred. Her pedigree is a "who's who" of some of the greats in UK field trials. The smaller dog (I believe he was around 4 months old) is show bred and was touted as being "english" by his breeder. No field lines of any origin are in his background!


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Question: Is there not a single British bred Lab ever won a trial or test ,or attained championship level in the US?


.
.

All Labradors here basically originated from English dogs brought over by early 20th century aristocrat's, but that was many many generations ago. 
Dogs have since been bred to bring out desired qualities suited to how Field Trials have evolved here, ignoring some of the traits you value in your game over there. 
In recent decades I don't believe one single dog with a British pedigree, (a direct import or a breeding in the US from first generation imports) has ever won an All-Age stake at a US Field Trial. Therefor, since a Field Trial win is a prerequisite to make up a Field Champion, no British dog has ever become a Field Champion in the US. I'm not certain but a British bred dog may have received a Certificate of Merit at a Field Trial and/or possibly even placed at one but I'm not aware of any that have actually done so.
I do know of and trained with several dogs with British/Irish pedigrees who have Won or placed in a Field Trial Derby and/or Qualifying Stake (similar to your Novice Stake maybe). 
Those accomplishments, while impressive in their own right, are a long long way from making a field champion. 
.
It would be interesting to see someone from the UK send a very well bred 8 week old puppy to America, to be raised like ours are, then enter formal training and be campaigned to the best of the puppies abilities. There are key points along puppies training path where he will be dismissed if he is not up to the task or if showing promise will be given every opportunity to step up to the next level and so on. Cost would be about 500 Pounds Stirling per month per dog for training and boarding. If and when dog is ready to run field trails add 100 to 300 pounds per month for entry fees etc. Not a great sum to make a go at field trail history.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

firehouselabs said:


> JB, actually you are mistaken. Bench/Show labs here in America are referred to (erroneously at that) as "ENGLISH". The Field trial lines of UK dogs are referred to as "British".
> 
> The larger dog in my avatar is UK bred. Her pedigree is a "who's who" of some of the greats in UK field trials. The smaller dog (I believe he was around 4 months old) is show bred and was touted as being "english" by his breeder. No field lines of any origin are in his background!


Then I beg your pardon. British, English......not a fan of debating semantics either. Still don't know why people insist on debating the exception rather than the rule. But to each his own. There are thousands and thousands of "British" or "English" labs, whatever you wanna call em, here in America. Perhaps one day someone will be able to explain why so few are seen at hunt tests or field trials? Or why so many reputable breeders will advise you to avoid "British" labs if trailing is your game?


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

Breck said:


> .
> .
> 
> In recent decades I don't believe one single dog with a British pedigree, (a direct import or a breeding in the US from first generation imports) has ever won an All-Age stake at a US Field Trial. Therefor, since a Field Trial win is a prerequisite to make up a Field Champion, no British dog has ever become a Field Champion in the US. I'm not certain but a British bred dog may have received a Certificate of Merit at a Field Trial and/or possibly even placed at one but I'm not aware of any that have actually done so.
> ...


If you look at my last post/picture, I think there may be an exception. I could be wrong as I don't know all about Field Trials and other titles.


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## Dos Patos (Oct 15, 2012)

Erik Vigeland said:


> This is the sire of my pup. He is not a show dog...
> 
> View attachment 11379
> 
> ...


Hell I believe I would give one of them a go.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Erik Vigeland said:


> If you look at my last post/picture, I think there may be an exception. I could be wrong as I don't know all about Field Trials and other titles.


..
Sorry no cigar.
Sam, the sire of your puppy is an AKC Master Hunter, but has never entered nor run a Field Trial stake in the US.
He's done good but...


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

Like I said, I don't know much about the titles...just know that he has his MH.


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## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

Scum Frog said:


> I still say the Canadian Labs are best
> 
> Loves real beer
> Doesn't mind the snow and cold, actually loves the snow and cold
> ...


Can he run a Zamboni?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

jb504079 said:


> Then I beg your pardon. British, English......not a fan of debating semantics either. Still don't know why people insist on debating the exception rather than the rule. But to each his own. There are thousands and thousands of "British" or "English" labs, whatever you wanna call em, here in America. Perhaps one day someone will be able to explain why so few are seen at hunt tests or field trials? Or why so many reputable breeders will advise you to avoid "British" labs if trailing is your game?


Considering how many pups go to pet or hunting only homes instead of competitive homes, and the vast majority of labs born and registered in the US are "american" labs, then the fact that you don't see many in hunt tests is really self explanatory and it doesn't have anything to do with talent. Another consideration is your neck of the woods. I have run and judged many a hunt test where yellow labs were rare, with chocolate (yes! Chocolate!) labs were predominant. Chessies are also a rarity, yet you won't see many people disparage that breed when it comes to hunting ability/desire. I have run tests where there were all of the "off" breeds present, and only a few labs. The off breeds being boykins, musterlunders, a GWP, a poodle, tollers, goldens, chessies, and I believe it was a golden doodle  (he passed, got to keep the ribbon, but no points). 

Our HRC club has 5 UK labs and 1 UK Eng. Cocker. One of which is currently running Quals, he has two MNH passes and his HRCH and UH titles. I know of many Double TT dogs that do/have run in HRC hunt tests, as the kennel prefix is easy to spot on the HT catalogs. I also know of one off the top of my head that has his GRHRCH. You can find many HT titled UK bred labs, it all depends on how much time you want to spend to look for them, and more importantly, who you know


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Good Gracious! There are two simple rules. 1 there is only one breed of Labrador Retriever 2 the division of the breed is in style not the breed its self SHOW/BENCH VS FIELD/HUNTING. If you Google European Field Champion labs you will find most of their dogs look and act just like ours. They have different training styles as well as different hunting styles. If two puppies from similar breeding's one in the UK and One in the US were raised by the same person you would find the dogs to be very similar. The only difference between an "American" and "English" Labrador is where they were whelped. The big misconception is that the show or bench style dogs are of "English" origins. I wish breeders would just educate their buyers! 

http://thelabradorclub.com/subpages/workvshow.php


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Erik Vigeland said:


> This is the sire of my pup. He is not a show dog...
> 
> View attachment 11379
> 
> ...


Sorry, at the risk of sounding really pedantic, was he really a UK Field Trial Champion? As on your signature it says "Sire: Irish FTCH...."

I've seen a lot on here talking about 'British' labs from working stock, but when you actually look at it they are not British at all, they are *IRISH!!!* Guys, it's a separate country, with a separate currency, and a very different Field Trialling system and rules.... A bit like the difference between Australia and New Zealand perhaps? Or dare I say it, USA and Canada?!!!!

If the above dog was also a UK FT CH (which I suspect he wasn't, but stand to be corrected), as well as being an Irish FT CH, then he would also have the title Int. FT CH (having qualified/gained his title in more than one Country).


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

km, what do you make of this claim?



> British Field Trial Champion (FTCh) Shortthorn Tommy of Leadburn. "Tommy" is considered to be the most qualified yellow British FTCh outside the United Kingdom. (A)t the time...was the only British Field Trial Champion yellow in North America. ...Only higher titled yellow dog in the U.K. is (grandsire) FTCh Dargdaffin Dynamo, who holds 4 Championship qualifications.


MG


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

kennel maiden said:


> Sorry, at the risk of sounding really pedantic, was he really a UK Field Trial Champion? As on your signature it says "Sire: Irish FTCH...."
> 
> I've seen a lot on here talking about 'British' labs from working stock, but when you actually look at it they are not British at all, they are *IRISH!!!* Guys, it's a separate country, with a separate currency, and a very different Field Trialling system and rules.... A bit like the difference between Australia and New Zealand perhaps? Or dare I say it, USA and Canada?!!!!
> 
> If the above dog was also a UK FT CH (which I suspect he wasn't, but stand to be corrected), as well as being an Irish FT CH, then he would also have the title Int. FT CH (having qualified/gained his title in more than one Country).



Actually, Northern Ireland is still part of Britain. All of Ireland was until 1922, I believe. Scotland, England, and Whales fall under Britain also.

And this is why I didn't want to post anything about the topic. I asked a very civil question, and I get my nose rubbed in it. I get it...I'll just call my lab a lab. No more countries in front of his breed. That's why I asked in the first place. And yes, you not only came off pedantic, but dogmatic...pun intended.


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## Garduck (Feb 1, 2013)

I've recently become the owner of a new labrador puppy. His country of origin is Britain and comes from working stock. I had no intention of buying British it actually turned out to be the best deal I could find for the caliber of breeding I required that and a good friend of mine was doing the breeding so I could spend a lot of quality time with the pups. As it turns out the pup that had the temperament I was looking for happened to be a more reddish tint. 

People ask us all the time if he is a golden or not hes only 12 weeks and then we explain sometimes British lines throw this color. In an effort to avoid this situation we've begun referring to him simply as a British Lab. Just our reasoning and experience. Also I've never owned an american field lab but hunted with many that have field trial pedigrees and I can say this if they actually have more drive than my pup according to some way more than I can honestly say that I wouldn't stand a chance with such a pup.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Erik Vigeland said:


> Actually, Northern Ireland is still part of Britain. All of Ireland was until 1922, I believe. Scotland, England, and Whales fall under Britain also.
> 
> And this is why I didn't want to post anything about the topic. I asked a very civil question, and I get my nose rubbed in it. I get it...I'll just call my lab a lab. No more countries in front of his breed. That's why I asked in the first place. And yes, you not only came off pedantic, but dogmatic...pun intended.



Ermmmm, yes I am well aware that Northern Ireland is part of Britain/UK LOL (and shares the same currency, passport, and also Field Trial system) but IRELAND doesn't! The dog you mention is registered as an Irish FT CH, not a UK one.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Ermmmm, yes I am well aware that Northern Ireland is part of Britain/UK LOL (and shares the same currency, passport, and also Field Trial system) but IRELAND doesn't! The dog you mention is registered as an Irish FT CH, not a UK one.






So how come you guys only tamed part of Ireland


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

crackerd said:


> km, what do you make of this claim?
> 
> 
> 
> MG


MG, I wouldn't want to comment on any one particular dog like this (as the claim says 'considered to be the most qualified.... OUTSIDE the UK'. But Mr Polmaise is lot better placed geographically, and history-wise, to give you an insight into this dog formerly owned by Mr Steel (Scotland).


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

Like I said...you all have convinced me to never utter the word British in front of the word lab again. I didn't think it was this big of a deal. Just a "new kid" on the block that got beat up by the bigger kids. You win. I'm done with this thread. Thanks for educating me....I knew I should have just grabbed the popcorn like everybody else....


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Erik
Are you aware that Kennel Maiden lives in the heart of England and has made several British Field Champions?
Of all the RTF discussions about British dogs this is the first one where an American with a British/Irish puppy has tried to school someone who lives over the pond about the British, Irish, Northern Ireland thingie.
Sort of funny.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Breck said:


> Erik
> Are you aware that Kennel Maiden lives in the heart of England and has made several British Field Champions?
> Of all the RTF discussions about British dogs this is the first one where an American with a British/Irish puppy has tried to school someone who lives over the pond about the British, Irish, Northern Ireland thingie.
> Sore of funny.


You can't expect him to know who she is and what she knows. Take a look at her handle? No location listed. And it's not like she posts often enough for a guy who joined in March to have seen what she knows.


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

Again...new guy here. I don't know who anyone is. Not trying to school anyone, so nope...didn't know anything about that. 

And for the last time...I GET IT. We can all get on with our lives, and I'll go home and train with my lab. See, I'm applying what I've learned.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Erik Vigeland said:


> Like I said...you all have convinced me to never utter the word British in front of the word lab again. I didn't think it was this big of a deal. Just a "new kid" on the block that got beat up by the bigger kids. You win. I'm done with this thread. Thanks for educating me....I knew I should have just grabbed the popcorn like everybody else....



Win what? The base of all good marketing is a story. Be it a company, a product or an animal. Stories can be about the history, wealth, fame, quality, ability or whatever. Some stories don't need to be told. They tell themselves. Other stories take glamorous websites, flashing lights, catchy songs, funny dances and imagination. Both methods work surprisingly well to sell dogs. 

Why in the world would a person buy a pup sight-unseen. Someone has never seen the Sire, never seen the Dam? Now we go back to the story. Many people here have bought their pups based on a story. The people here who are the most successful bought their pup based on market research. Either first hand or passed along experience from a trusted expert.(their pro trainer or experienced AM) 

It's for this reason I wouldn't buy a dog from someone with an elaborate website, someone who needs to market their dog to make the sale. A good dog sells itself regardless of the name placed before it. I see "British" has a marketing tool used by "some". The word envokes visions of a stately pheasant push across a beautiful countryside setting with men and dog working in harmony. Back to my first sentence.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> You can't expect him to know who she is and what she knows.


yes, you can. just click on a persons name and click past posts and POOF a total rtf history of that person. then you know what they know, ya know?


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

jb504079 said:


> No confusion. I know the difference. Point I was making is the majority of "British" style labs in America simply aren't gun dogs. Are there British gun dogs of great quality? Sure. I'm just not a fan of arguing the exception. *Most of them in America are bred for looks. *The lab is the most popular dog in America, and has been for decades. Now I know that many people aren't duck hunting with those dogs....they buy for looks. And if that's what you're going for (looks and docile temperament), a British Lab is the way to go. I don't know why this offends so many people????


JB, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Again, I know of NO ONE who breeds "UK field-bred" Labs with "looks" as their first, second, third...priority. They are bred to be gun-dogs, first and foremost, and are commonly found in both Hunt Tests and duck blinds. For the record, I'm not offended at all. Just trying to set the record straight.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Kirk Keene said:


> JB, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Again, I know of NO ONE who breeds "UK field-bred" Labs with "looks" as their first, second, third...priority. They are bred to be gun-dogs, first and foremost, and are commonly found in both Hunt Tests and duck blinds. For the record, I'm not offended at all. Just trying to set the record straight.


That's cool. I really didn't mean to offend anyone. I thought by using the caveat "what I've observed" would have spoken for itself. Perhaps it's where I live? I dunno. I do know that field bred English Labs are good gun dogs. Just seems to me that the majority of English style labs are show dogs. Again, just MY observation over the years. I wasn't dissing them in any way.


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

It could definately be your location, as I'm not familiar with your neck of the woods. Anyway, no worries...as I'm just happy this thread stayed "above the table" and everyone pretty much behaved themselves.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Ok since no one is really answering the OP question, I will try. You can call Tom Hamilton, Southern Mississippi area. Bracken-Finn kennels. He should have or know where you can fine a "British" lab pup in the area you are looking in. Hey Gulf Coast speak up here and pm him the phone number.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Google "British Labs". You'll find all sorts of flashy website. Google AKC Field Trial Labs and you won't find squat.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

British labs live longer because they have gun control....

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> British labs live longer because they have gun control....
> 
> /Paul


But the amount of vinegar and salt used contributes to very high blood pressure.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

jb504079 said:


> Seems to me that "British Labs" in America are bred with one thing in mind.....looks. Maybe it's sheer coincidence, but you won't find many "British Labs" over in the Masters Series' at a hunt test. Just my observation.


I see 'em all the time. Including mine.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I like judging British Labs. Gives me time to eat my sandwich...

/Paul


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

GulfCoast said:


> I see 'em all the time. Including mine.


About time you pipe up. Please send the OP Tom's contact infor.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Dublem Gundogs is located in Nebraska and run by an experienced gentleman. Good luck.

https://sites.google.com/site/dublemgundogs/


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

GulfCoast said:


> I see 'em all the time. Including mine.


If they all run like Ellie Mae then I am in the market for a British lab!


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

fishduck said:


> If they all run like Ellie Mae then I am in the market for a British lab!


Thank you, Dr. Land. You are a true scholar and a gentleman!  

To the OP, I own both the "Brit" and "FC/AFC sired US" versions of labs. If you want to know where to get a nice puppy sired by a UK FTW and or FTW/HRCH/MH that can hunt and run HT's and up to the Q if trained properly, PM me and I will shoot you 2 breeders who may or may not have what you want coming up in a litter. INSIST on health clearances and PRA. Neither breeds on the massive "Stewart" scale. If you are looking for an American puppy to run up to AA stakes, I can PM you a couple breeders for that, too.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

GulfCoast said:


> Thank you, Dr. Land. You are a true scholar and a gentleman!
> 
> To the OP, I own both the "Brit" and "FC/AFC sired US" versions of labs. If you want to know where to get a nice puppy sired by a UK FTW and or FTW/HRCH/MH that can hunt and run HT's and up to the Q if trained properly, PM me and I will shoot you 2 breeders who may or may not have what you want coming up in a litter. INSIST on health clearances and PRA. Neither breeds on the massive "Stewart" scale. If you are looking for an American puppy to run up to AA stakes, I can PM you a couple breeders for that, too. [/QUOTE
> 
> This is to Mark Land, about Mark Edwards, I was told he trains funny with that British lab.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Pain in the ass to FF, their teeth are really bad


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

Well you can be certain I will not allow my "Rosey" to read these posts!


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

badbullgator said:


> Pain in the ass to FF, their teeth are really bad


Toe pinch, my man!


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Maybe you should look at a golden. I know of an outstanding breeding.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

What do you think of the premise that succumbing to his nose in an American field trial can often get a dog in trouble therefore a dog that either doesn’t have much nose or at least doesn’t pay attention to it is more likely to succeed and thus to produce pups that are less likely to use their nose effectively?

In contrast, a British Field trial values the dog that demonstrates his nose by finding shot birds in circumstances where the handler isn’t in a position to direct him. Therefore, the dog that consistently finds birds (and demonstrates all of the other desirable characteristics) is rewarded & bred to produce offspring that are more likely to have a good nose. 

Would you expect that over time, the British Field Trial stock would have a better nose while the American dogs would be more “vision oriented”?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Karen Klotthor said:


> GulfCoast said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, Dr. Land. You are a true scholar and a gentleman!
> ...


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

If we are breeding out nose, we're doing a lousy job of it.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> What do you think of the premise that succumbing to his nose in an American field trial can often get a dog in trouble therefore a dog that either doesn’t have much nose or at least doesn’t pay attention to it is more likely to succeed and thus to produce pups that are less likely to use their nose effectively?
> 
> In contrast, a British Field trial values the dog that demonstrates his nose by finding shot birds in circumstances where the handler isn’t in a position to direct him. Therefore, the dog that consistently finds birds (and demonstrates all of the other desirable characteristics) is rewarded & bred to produce offspring that are more likely to have a good nose.
> 
> Would you expect that over time, the British Field Trial stock would have a better nose while the American dogs would be more “vision oriented”?


 If you're asking me, I have already heard it from a field trialer.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Kennel blindness across the oceans 
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?94176-American-Labs


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## blackrat (Mar 19, 2011)

Hello Mark

Please forward me there names etc.

I live in Northern Canada so location is important

Thanks

Mike


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

Dave Flint said:


> What do you think of the premise that succumbing to his nose in an American field trial can often get a dog in trouble therefore a dog that either doesn’t have much nose or at least doesn’t pay attention to it is more likely to succeed and thus to produce pups that are less likely to use their nose effectively?
> 
> In contrast, a British Field trial values the dog that demonstrates his nose by finding shot birds in circumstances where the handler isn’t in a position to direct him. Therefore, the dog that consistently finds birds (and demonstrates all of the other desirable characteristics) is rewarded & bred to produce offspring that are more likely to have a good nose.
> 
> Would you expect that over time, the British Field Trial stock would have a better nose while the American dogs would be more “vision oriented”?


Considering the amount of American field bred labs being used in detection/drug work, I'd say sniffing out a soggy pen raised mallard is child's play compared to a joint in a Samsonite!  I think it's just a difference in the type of training/needs of the Trialer.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I would say that 'pro rata' the amount of dogs being used in similar work using their noses is more akin to spaniels 'world wide' ?


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I find it interesting that all of the pro spaniel trainers I know who also train / breed Labs favor British imports.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave Flint said:


> I find it interesting that all of the pro spaniel trainers I know who also train / breed Labs favor British imports.


If I had labs I would too! I think you get about an extra $1000 per pup from what I've seen on the websites.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> If I had labs I would too! I think you get about an extra $1000 per pup from what I've seen on the websites.


True....because all of us rich Americans with spoiled rotten kids just want a "pretty, docile dog". Rendering the Labrador retriever the number one family pet for 30 years.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> I find it interesting that all of the pro spaniel trainers I know who also train / breed Labs favor British imports.


Honestly!? Expand for me?...What 'Pro Spaniel Trainers'? that you know?..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

polmaise said:


> Honestly!? Expand for me?...What 'Pro Spaniel Trainers'? that you know?..


Many Pointer trainers work with Spaniels. Three Field trial trainers in Wa. State who've won Nationals and been to Ames Plantation numerous times. Brittany is a Spaniel too... lol.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Tom Ness ( http://www.oahekennels.com/drupal/)
Mark Hairfield ( http://www.southavenkennels.com/index.php/mi-lab-retrievers)
Lynn Miller (http://www.bluepheasantkennel.com/)
Bud Clouse (https://sites.google.com/site/dublemgundogs/)

My impression is that it's quite a bit more common for trainers in the UK to work w/ both breeds but here, most specialize in one or the other breed. Of these gentlemen, Mark Hairfield is the only one I know that has also run Retriever trials but I could be wrong. They are all very well regarded in the spaniel world.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

oh dear!
There are also many handlers that work spaniels and pointers without a 'Gun'! ..here is one that has embarked on entering the world of 'Falconry'.
You still haven't shown yours ?..spaniels or retrievers,or ''brittanys'', or hawks?,


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

I love watching labradors...but cannot become excited watching the water work on this youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH03Z3wF7MA


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

polmaise said:


> oh dear!
> There are also many handlers that work spaniels and pointers without a 'Gun'! ..here is one that has embarked on entering the world of 'Falconry'.
> You still haven't shown yours ?..spaniels or retrievers,or ''brittanys'', or hawks?,



This is the best all around gun dog I've owned in 35 yrs. He's finished nearly half the Springer field trials he's run in even though he's got a half-wit for a handler & he can consistently do "HRC Finished level" retrieves on land.

I've also got the Golden in my Avatar but he's retired & I'm starting another Springer pup thus breaking my habit of alternating between a retriever & a spaniel each time I get a new puppy.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Dave Flint said:


> I find it interesting that all of the pro spaniel trainers I know who also train / breed Labs favor British imports.


Interesting but pretty predictable, Dave - many of them favor imports because they're imports themselves (or were "trained" by imports). Thus disinclined to use force fetch "proactively" and more pertinently don't use the e-collar as our retriever trainers do - for a sequential training program.

Also many spaniels in field trials as you know are just a generation removed from import too. Bet you could name at least a few imports who've won US spaniel FTs even in the last 10 years. As for Robt.'s unanswered question about a British-bred Labrador last winning an American retriever FT, I think a legend about the disadvantages they brought to the line the sprang up around them in the 60s.;-)

MG


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

There might just be a few in here who haven't seen pics of my British Labs. 

Below Eddie and Ross. I think this was Ross's last day afield,he was just 12. Eddie died in mid season 2012 at 7 and a bit.










Yes, they can sometimes blunder into bird; Eddie with a cock runner out of the hedge bottom.










Ross in his pomp, picking up in Shropshire.










It's only fair to point out that Jack the blackfeller is an aboriginal Welshman. Don't know who the Gonk in the wellies could be...











And finally one of the more rare English black and white Labradors. The excessive scurf and dandruff in their coats is so thick people often mistake it for ice.











Eug


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Eug, where's the miter and the punt gun? C'mon now, don't be bashful...put it out there to be marveled at again and again.

MG


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## Seabass77 (Jan 18, 2013)

Here is Sam "the irish champion" with a blind retrieve across water. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-id9sxPT78

Erik, I have a pup coming from Rick this spring.


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## lennie (Jan 15, 2003)

Eugene, Your "British" dogs are absolutely STUNNING.......LOVE them ALL.....(a little partial to the Welsh fellow tho)



Earlene


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

Seabass77 said:


> Here is Sam "the irish champion" with a blind retrieve across water. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-id9sxPT78
> 
> Erik, I have a pup coming from Rick this spring.


I hope you will be as happy with your pup as I am with mine!


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

fishduck said:


> Karen Klotthor said:
> 
> 
> > Results are all that matters IMHO!!
> ...


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Oh, do I remember it well.....


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