# Would you buy an EIC carrier Puppy



## Tommy L. Fairchild (Jul 21, 2003)

Would you buy a puppy knowing that one of the parents is EIC affected and the other is clear meaning that all the puppies would carriers. The affected parent has almost all the titles offered for Field trials and the other parent is QAA , has derby placement and has been to the last series in an AM. at31/2years.

1. No, not at any price it would be hurting the Breed
2. $O-$500
3. $1000-$1500
4. $2000 UP IF WAS by a NFC or an NAFC ad uot of a titled bitch


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## klist (Feb 9, 2009)

yes...but i wouldnt breed

but then again what the hell do i kno? i just wanted a pup to get the dam birds...ha ha ha


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Yes, I would and, if the pup turned out to be what I feel would improve my breeding program, I would breed to a CLEAR. 

Let's use the medical technology we have to continue to improve the breed. That technology allows us to make better decisions on picking a potential mate so that we don't produce AFFECTED. No need to "throw the baby out with the bath water"


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Yes, if the pup had the pedigree and characteristics that I wanted.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Tommy L. Fairchild said:


> Would you buy a puppy knowing that one of the parents is EIC affected and the other is clear meaning that all the puppies would carriers. The affected parent has almost all the titles offered for Field trials and the other parent is QAA , has derby placement and has been to the last series in an AM. at31/2years.
> 
> 1. No, not at any price it would be hurting the Breed
> 2. $O-$500
> ...


In a "New York" minute. I have absolutely no problem with it.

Angie


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Vicky Trainor said:


> Yes, I would and, if the pup turned out to be what I feel would improve my breeding program, I would breed to a CLEAR.
> 
> Let's use the medical technology we have to continue to improve the breed. That technology allows us to make better decisions on picking a potential mate so that we don't produce AFFECTED. No need to "throw the baby out with the bath water"



I agree. No need to "throw the baby out with the bath water". I feel that we can improve the breed with careful breeding standards and these tests which indicate CLEAR, CARRIER or AFFECTED should be used as tools. I have a CLEAR bitch, I would _consider _breeding to a CARRIER, if I felt the breeding could produce improvements over my bitch. However, I would not breed to an AFFECTED.

I did not vote, because price is not the consideration.
________
IOLITE VAPORIZER


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I have trouble with this one. I have an EIC affected female that is an outstanding marker, good hips, etc., and is a pleasure as a companion. But for her EIC, she definitely would have been running derby, along with her littermates, and would be running Quals now. I have not bred her solely because of her EIC. I would love a pup out of her myself but don't feel I can count on finding suitable homes for her other pups because of what appear to be irrational reactions against carriers even from people with no intention of breeding.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

A carrier breed to a non carrier can produce carriers and non carriers. I have a young dog who is out of a breeding non carrier to carrier and he is a non carrier. Or EIC clear. It is the infected carrier that should not be breed.


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## Rob Paye (Jul 22, 2009)

No, to buy, or breed


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Yes I would and yes if it were a good dog I would have no problem breeding it. As far as price goes it would all depend on the breeding.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

moscowitz said:


> A carrier breed to a non carrier can produce carriers and non carriers. I have a young dog who is out of a breeding non carrier to carrier and he is a non carrier. Or EIC clear. *It is the infected carrier that should not be breed*.


 

Just to be clear this would be an "a*ffected*' dog, *NOT* and *INFECTED* carrier. *Carriers are NOT AFFECTED*, they are carriers meaning they COULD pass it along if paired with another carrier or affected dog. Carriers are NEVER AFFECTED and they are really not INFECTED.


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Why would someone not buy a normal puppy, which is what a carrier is. As has been mentioned, if you decide to breed it just needs to be to a clear.

Buck


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I did last June. I let the breeder pick the pup for me and he ended up being a carrier. I have no problems with that at all. If he ends up breeding it will have to be with a clear female. Would never think of breeding with another carrier or affected female.


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## Archery1973 (Jan 15, 2010)

I was concerned about buying an EIC carrier dog. After fully understanding about what can be done with an EIC carrier dog, I went ahead and purchased the dog.


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## Lee W (Jul 19, 2004)

I wish the poll was a simiple yes or no poll .I did not vote on the poll but yes I would buy a carrier if the breeding is what I was looking for ...


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I agree that the poll is poorly worded. A simple No would avoid confusion. Similarly, with the yes, it might better read "Yes, with a price discount" or "Yes, without a price discount". The actual amount that would be spent to buy a pup depends more on the overall quality of the breeding and the buyer's price sensitivity. Many people would never spend $2000 on a pup no matter what, and some people would never spend more than $500.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

I didn't vote because price depends on the breeding not the EIC status.

I would buy a carrier if it was from a breeding I wanted.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

As has been previously stated an EIC Carrier is a* totally normal dog!* If the breeding fit my need and the dog was a _carrier, _I would certainly buy the dog if its potential as a competitor was extreme. I would breed the dog as well, but would be certain to breed with only _clear_ male/female. 

An EIC *Affected* is another story entirely. I have had an EIC Affected dog and under no circumstances should they be bred. If anyone had ever witnessed first-hand, up close and personal, an episode of EIC collapse, they would understand why that should not be bred. It's unknown if the stress of breeding and/or whelping might even trigger a collapse in the affected dog.

FWIW, Jeff, I think you have made the correct choice.

I really don't think the issue of price would be the deciding factor with a carrier. They are normal. If it were my litter, normal dogs would not be "discounted".


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

I agree as welL i would buy the pup but did not vote on the poll because cost is a separate issue to me, I do not mind a carrier.

As yardley said 2000 for some people would never happen and I have seen those pups that are selling for 2k+ but there were very few people in the market for them. And those dogs had no health issues that I anyone was aware of.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

I am adamant about breeding genetically healthy dogs to the best of our ability. That said, I have been educated about dogs who are carriers, and agree that quality animals who are carriers should still be responsibly bred. We wanted a second dog. I found a litter I wanted-put down a deposit-got a pup. The dam is an EIC carrier, and so is my pup. No one asked that the litter be tested, even though the breeder offered, because the breeding was what was important. I wouldn't trade her-she's a great dog.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Not all EIC affected, collapse.
I personally know some titled trial dogs that have not.

I don't see why it's different breeding these dogs vs a carrier.
As long as they are bred to a clear...
Affected/clear vs carrier/clear, both produce carrier pups.

If I liked the breeding, would certainly buy one.
Is that what you are asking, Tommy???


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

There is no reason not to buy a pup with a good pedigree that is a carrier. If it turns out to be a great FT or HT dog, there is no reason to not breed to a clear dog.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

YardleyLabs said:


> I have trouble with this one. I have an EIC affected female that is an outstanding marker, good hips, etc., and is a pleasure as a companion. But for her EIC, she definitely would have been running derby, along with her littermates, and would be running Quals now. I have not bred her solely because of her EIC. I would love a pup out of her myself but don't feel I can count on finding suitable homes for her other pups because of what appear to be irrational reactions against carriers even from people with no intention of breeding.


Jeff, I think your situation is different than the one posed in the poll. The question posed was about the purchase of a carrier. Your situation is regarding the potential breeding of an affected dog, guaranteed to create a litter of all carriers even if bred to a clear dog. I think you have made a very reasonable decision. Unless the breeding was so outstanding that people were literally clamoring for you to breed the dog I wouldn't breed an affected dog. As you stated, there would be concerns about being able to find suitable homes for all of them. I am not a breeder, but hypothetically I would be worried about having to place so many carriers with owners who would really understand the ramifications. I would think the odds would be that some would breed their carriers without making sure the dog they were breeding with was clear and some affected dogs could very well result in the next generation.

As for buying a carrier pup, I would if it was the breeding that I really wanted, but I didn't vote because I have no idea what the price would be.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I would love to have a carrier pup out of a NFC x a QAA or FC AFC !!! I think that female carriers have the "advantage" due to many people not expecting as much out of them in regards to titles and the fact that their breeding career is short, compared to males that probably would not be bred to much unless they had a minimum of a FC AFC before their name. Even then they have to something special since there are so many clear males out there with the same qualifications. 
So if I bought a pup that was going to be a carrier it would be a female, a male if clear.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

If I had a truly talented dog that was affected, and I wanted a pup, I would breed the dog in a heartbeat if all the other health certs were good. The only difference in breeding an affected to a clear is you don't have to test because they are all carriers. I think it's odd people would distinguish a carrier from an affected, from a carrier from a carrier or a clear. They are the same thing-healthy dogs. If you think you are going to have problems selling them, adjust the price, sell them on limited, and keep several pups. Handle it as a purchase of a puppy and how much would you spend on that. Otherwise, it's all about marketing and $$$ and not about being a breeder.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

If two carriers/affected dogs are bred should AKC limit registration only to those pups that are tested and come back as carrier/normal?


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## luvmylabs23139 (Jun 4, 2005)

I voted no because although an carrier can be bred to a clear with no issues, people do not want to breed to a carrier.
I prefer to own males and it is my view that a male has to conform to higher standards than a bitch does.
Bitch owners seem to be willing to breed their carrier bitch but are not willing to breed a clear bitch to a carrier.


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## Rocketman88 (Feb 6, 2010)

IMO I agree with others that have stated the poll should be a "yes" or "no"! Leddyman also have a very good point, the price should not be based on the EIC status alone. To all that thinks Carriers should not be bred i have trouble understanding that. When it comes to breeding i think they all have their place.


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## Rocketman88 (Feb 6, 2010)

Tommy, when you get some free time lets get together and train... Give me a call sometime!


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## Ken S. (Feb 2, 2005)

Would own, but would not breed it.


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## JamesTannery (Jul 29, 2006)

luvmylabs23139 said:


> I voted no because although an carrier can be bred to a clear with no issues, people do not want to breed to a carrier.
> I prefer to own males and it is my view that a male has to conform to higher standards than a bitch does.
> Bitch owners seem to be willing to breed their carrier bitch but are not willing to breed a clear bitch to a carrier.


Wrong! People WILL breed to a carrier if he's spitting out FC, QAA's and MH's on a regular basis.
________
health store


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

The issues have been framed but the idea that avoiding an EIC carrier relative to performance is a non-issue. There is no health issue with an EIC carrier. Its EIC status as a carrier will only be a consideration if the carrier dog is bred and only then if bred to another carrier.

Personally, if I am buying a male pup I would want an EIC clear status, simply related to the potential to breed the dog, if the dog has other excellent qualities and is field titled. A carrier female is a little different, for me, and I would buy and breed a carrier female to the right EIC clear male - again if she has other outstanding qualities.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I would and did buy a carrier pup. I am not and do not intend to be a breeder. Why deny myself such a nice dog?


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I see a huge difference between a mating that would produce half carriers and half clears, vs a mating that would produce ALL carriers. 

Not against breeding good carriers, but affecteds, well they need to be EXTREMELY special to warrent producing an enitre litter of carriers.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

limiman12 said:


> I see a huge difference between a mating that would produce half carriers and half clears, vs a mating that would produce ALL carriers.
> 
> Not against breeding good carriers, but affecteds, well they need to be EXTREMELY special to warrent producing an enitre litter of carriers.


 
WHY?????
.


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## davidtbateman (Feb 10, 2010)

I looked at this post and then contacted my breeder Russ Baker with Sheyenne River Retirevers. 

Pre-purchase he informed me that my potential pup was a non EIC affected dog. I told him that I would have intentions of breeding him. After seeing this thread a few hours ago I asked him to send me the EIC Test #. He then responded back saying that my dog is a carrier, of which he never informed me of pre-purchase; he only informed me that the pup was non-affected. I am 110% pleased with the pup, he is carrying tremendously great qualities; however, I guess when it comes time to breed him I will have to be sure that he is breed to an EIC clear pup. I guess I should have been more specific when I was asking Russ about EIC in the bloodlines, or maybe he should have made that crystal clear pre-purchase. 

Does anyone know the percentage that come out carriers when breeding a carrier vs clear?


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

badbullgator said:


> WHY?????
> .


Because as stated, you would be producing an entire litter of pups that are carriers. I am not against breeding carriers, I have one, but while the test is there to make breeding carriers possible, I think as a long term goal (4-5 generations) it would be nice if the presence of the gene (in a carrier status dog) is less frequent. The arguement to breed carriers is to keep the genetic makeup of the carriers in the gene pool. If you are producing 50% clear pups in litters there is a good chance that the "special dog from that litter would be clear, thereby allowing that "line" to be bred freely to other lines with no restirctions (as far as EIC is concerned) 

Breeding affecteds, increases the incidence of the gene in the breeding pool. According to the stats from U OF MINN stats of carriers and affecteds tested, breeding carriers to clears is relatively close to being "neutral" to the impact of incidence of the gene, and if ou test the pups and place limited reg on the carriers, those carriers have to show the goods before removing the limited status and being bred. Clear pups can go to homes that are more likely to be bred, so the 2 generation incidence of the gene is decreased, not increased.

I am NOT for single trait selection, and I left the "out" that a affected would have to be REALLY special to justify breeding it, but it is a trait that would be nice to see a decrease over four-5 gens, 

I think there is a big difference in the attitudes and responses to this between the FT group and the HT. I think FTers as a whole would be more to do this type of mating then theHT crowd. Just my feeling.....


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## Squirm88 (Oct 30, 2008)

davidtbateman said:


> Does anyone know the percentage that come out carriers when breeding a carrier vs clear?


Breeding a carrier to a clear will produce %50 Clear and %50 Carrier.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Not an issue - like said don't breed or make sure its with a clear mate. I would still pay the $$ for the pedigree. Not top dollar as it is not clear. A clear pup should demand a premium because of the effort put into acheiving that condition or the other clearing tests that are out there.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

I couldn't care less if the pup was a carrier for EIC, or CNM for that matter. Neither would affect my pup and it's abilities, both as a competitor or to live a long happy life.

I don't intend to ever breed but, if I did, producing affected pups can easily be avoided by breeding to clear dogs/bitches so I don't see the big deal.


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## SCOTT C. (Oct 20, 2004)

Joe Brakke said:


> Not an issue - like said don't breed or make sure its with a clear mate. I would still pay the $$ for the pedigree. Not top dollar as it is not clear. A clear pup should demand a premium because of the effort put into acheiving that condition or the other clearing tests that are out there.


So what you are saying is that You wouldn't pay as much for a carrier? You can have clear and carrier's in the same litter so there is no more effort put into clear vs carrier in the same litter with the same pedigree.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I sat down at one point and began testing the effect mathematically of breeding clear, carrier, and affected dogs equally but with matches that ensured that no new affecteds would be produced. There is almost no difference at all in how quickly the incidence of carriers + affecteds declines whether affecteds are bred or not. After one generation, it is a non-issue. The reality is that my decision not to breed my affected girl is based almost solely on the difficulty of marketing carriers combined with my own prejudice. Take away the marketing concern and I would breed her in a heartbeat since she is an outstanding dog that I believe would make an excellent mother.


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## Todd Eury (Jan 31, 2008)

I have had a EIC affected female and always thought that I would never have another EIC carrier or affected dog but after educating myself on the issue, I would purchase a carrier if it was what I was looking for.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Squirm88 said:


> Breeding a carrier to a clear will produce %50 Clear and %50 Carrier.


Is it "will" or "may" produce 50/50?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> Is it "will" or "may" produce 50/50?


Statistically just like a litter will be half males and half females.


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## Loren Crannell (Apr 12, 2008)

The answer is yes, because I *have* an EIC carrier dog and paid $2k for him. Worth every dollar and if turns out good I wil breed him to an EIC Clear female.

I haven't read the other responses, but if somebody offered me today's equivalent Lean Mac because he was a carrier i would swoop him up.

Find the best dog you can, with or without a carrier status and have fun.

Loren


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Do what you are comfortable with!

Personally, with so many very nice litters that are clear of both EIC and CNM, I would opt for clear.

Besides, when it comes to Labs, we have bigger fish to fry. Bad hips are still the biggest threat to the integrity of the breed.


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## Tatyana (Nov 6, 2007)

Yes. And if I decided to breed, I would breed to an EIC clear dog.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Reading this thread it seems to support my thought that the percentages of Labrador Retrievers that are carriers of the EIC gene are probably not going to diminish. HPW


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

HarryWilliams said:


> Reading this thread it seems to support my thought that the percentages of Labrador Retrievers that are carriers of the EIC gene are probably not going to diminish. HPW


If one assumes that 40% of Labs are now carriers and that another 5% are affected, a breeding strategy that breeds to prevent the birth of any affecteds and is otherwise random with regard to carrier status will cut the percentage of carriers + affecteds almost in half in 3-4 generations. Even a mild prejudice in breedings against carriers (e.g., all other things being equal, I will breed to a clear) will accelerate this decrease significantly. If you remove all carriers from the gene pool faster, you may discover too late that you are losing more than you expected.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> If one assumes that 40% of Labs are now carriers and that another 5% are affected, a breeding strategy that breeds to prevent the birth of any affecteds and is otherwise random with regard to carrier status will cut the percentage of carriers + affecteds almost in half in 3-4 generations. Even a mild prejudice in breedings against carriers (e.g., all other things being equal, I will breed to a clear) will accelerate this decrease significantly. If you remove all carriers from the gene pool faster, you may discover too late that you are losing more than you expected.


What about all Field bred Labs that get bred that belong to Joe Duckwhacker? I would estimate that there are 300 something Field bred Labs in Acadiana(South Central La.) alone. The vast majority are owned by folks that do NOT play dog games. They go to someone that knows someone that runs HT's or FT's and ask for puppy(litter) recommendations. So, they go to one of the numerous websites with litter listings and buy a pup because so and so said that a certain stud is the ****z. I am amazed at the number of dogs owned by people in this area that don't play dog games yet have at least 1 FC AFC within 2 generations. And, they know nothing to little about any of the heath issues that we are faced with today. These dogs are getting bred because I hear about litters in the area all the time. EIC will be around along time and people like in a previous post(#36 this thread) will end up with a carrier by not knowing which questions to ask, when he wanted a "clear" pup..

Personally, I find the arguement justifying the breeding of carrier to clear to be a weak one. If we had a "Truth Check" on polls, I would bet dollars to donuts that those advocating the breeding of carriers own at least one.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Franco said:


> What about all Field bred Labs that get bred that belong to Joe Duckwhacker? I would estimate that there are 300 something Field bred Labs in Acadiana alone. The vast majority are owned by folks that do NOT play dog games. They go to someone that knows someone that runs HT's or FT's and ask for puppy(litter) recommendations. So, they go to one of the numerous websites with litter listings and buy a pup because so and so said that a certain stud is the ****z. I am amazed at the number of dogs owned by people in this area that don't play dog games yet have at least 1 FC AFC within 2 generations. And, they know nothing to little about any of the heath issues that we are faced with today. These dogs are getting bred because I hear about litters in the area all the time. EIC will be around along time and people like in a previous post will end up with carriers by not knowing which questions to ask.


You are right of course. But the whole notion of breeding strategies is only relevant in the context of responsible breeding anyway. There will always be people unwilling to spend more than $500 on a dog because it is just a dog and happy to buy from almost anyone. It is fortunate that the Labrador breed is so resilient that even idiots usually end up with good dogs.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> You are right of course. But the whole notion of breeding strategies is only relevant in the context of responsible breeding anyway. There will always be people unwilling to spend more than $500 on a dog because it is just a dog and happy to buy from almost anyone. It is fortunate that the Labrador breed is so resilient that even idiots usually end up with good dogs.


But, shouldn't the Field Trial community set the example? Lead the way, so to speak? Just looking through some HT's catalogs from this Spring alone, most of those dogs come from Field Trial titled dogs. More so in AKC than HRC. Maybe folks are too preoccupied with trying to win ribbons and don't feel they owe the breed anything. Carriers do not possess any wonderful traits that can' be found in a "clear" dog.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

No way . We owe it to the breed to eliminate this problem. As long as I live , I will not own a carrier .You do not know what will happen down the road with "Joe Duckwhacker" as mentioned earlier .Franco and Harry Williams are right on.
And isn't one of the main purposes of competing is to find stock worthy of breeding ? Of course the most dedicated to our breed should lead the way . IMVHO .I doubt I will change anyone's mind ,so don't try to change mine !!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Two words: Limited registration. Field Labradors breeders are one of the very few that don't utilize limited registration.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

If you know at least a few of the "popular" Sires that are now known to be carriers, take a look at the Sires of last year's NRC qualifiers.

Now ask yourself what that list would look like, if we had an EIC test 10 years ago and had stopped breeding those carriers.

Would the Labrador Retriever BREED, be better off today?


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Two words: Limited registration. Field Labradors breeders are one of the very few that don't utilize limited registration.


This solution makes the most sense to me. Test the entire litter and sell the carriers with Limited Registration!


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> If you know at least a few of the "popular" Sires that are now known to be carriers, take a look at the Sires of last year's NRC qualifiers.
> 
> Now ask yourself what that list would look like, if we had an EIC test 10 years ago and had stopped breeding those carriers.
> 
> Would the Labrador Retriever BREED, be better off today?


 
Yes! The Labrador was not originally developed to play competitive dog games. They were developed to be gun dogs. 

Doesn't matter which breed or which competitve speciality (Field or Show), the integrity of the breed will suffer so long as people love ribbons more than they love thier breed!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

John Kelder said:


> No way . We owe it to the breed to eliminate this problem. As long as I live , I will not own a carrier .You do not know what will happen down the road with "Joe Duckwhacker" as mentioned earlier .Franco and Harry Williams are right on.
> And isn't one of the main purposes of competing is to find stock worthy of breeding ? Of course the most dedicated to our breed should lead the way . IMVHO .I doubt I will change anyone's mind ,so don't try to change mine !!


Out of the mouth of babes.... :razz:

I couldn't in a million years change your way of thinking.... Or would I care to. 

Living in your self imposed vaccuum is so much more self-gratifying...

Rock on!!!

Angie


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Franco said:


> Yes! The Labrador was not originally developed to play competitive dog games. They were developed to be gun dogs.
> 
> Doesn't matter which breed or which competitve speciality (Field or Show), the integrity of the breed will suffer so long as people love ribbons more than they love thier breed!


The ability of the breed to recover from a concentrated recessive genetic disorder, is reduced by the unnecessary reduction of the gene pool, in a panic stricken, knee jerk reaction, to a minor problem. 

There are many more deleterious autosomal recessive traits in the breed, that we haven't got a test for.

We need as diverse of a gene pool as we can possibly maintain, to provide a "cushion" for new discoveries.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> The ability of the breed to recover from a concentrated recessive genetic disorder, is reduced by the unnecessary reduction of the gene pool, in a panic stricken, knee jerk reaction, to a minor problem.
> 
> There are many more deleterious autosomal recessive traits in the breed, that we haven't got a test for.
> 
> We need as diverse of a gene pool as we can possibly maintain, to provide a "cushion" for new discoveries.


Well then we can agree to disagree because I don't see a limited gene pool when one talks Labradors. Especially, when one talks about thier original intent.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

I am very surprised that only 3-4 posts out of 50 have referenced the sex of the EIC carrier puppy. It is very important in the decision. Anybody that buys a puppy should hope that their dog may be the ultimate FC-AFC or even National Champion. Today, EIC carrier males have a far lower prospect of being bred. In the past, if they had been proven producers but their status was not announced or even unknown, they were sought out. That is much less true today. Males don't ask to be bred, they are only asked to be bred. Females do the asking. If clear, a good female EIC carrier is not turned down by a clear male. Puppies can be tested and sold "as is". The difference is that if I had a female EIC carrier I could find a willing partner. If I had a top preformer EIC male I would have to wait for a offer. Ask those who have an EIC carrier stud how many offers they have had (if they have been upfront about their stud's status). 

I'd buy an EIC carrier female pup but not an EIC carrier male since I am always hopeful my male could be worthy of being a stud dog.

Ditto for CNM.

Jus' sayin' what I would do


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Franco said:


> Well then we can agree to disagree because I don't see a limited gene pool when one talks Labradors. Especially, when one talks about thier original intent.


You want to eliminate almost HALF of the Labrador Retriever population from breeding and you don't see how that could possibly concentrate the gene pool?


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> You want to eliminate almost HALF of the Labrador Retriever population from breeding and you don't see how that could possibly concentrate the gene pool?


Estimates are 40% plus within U S Field which includes HT dogs since they mostly get thier pups from Field stock. EIC is so widespread today in Field dogs because of one dog. Had that dog not been the stud he was, EIC would in probablity be a much smaller percentage. EIC is a much smaller percentage outside of Field.

I understand that the top FTers want that next superstar FT dog. Limited Registration makes sense for the Top 1% or the FC AFC to FC AFC breedings. But, for everyone else, they don't need a potential FT superstar as much as they need Ralph! And, Ralph ain't that bad. Reminds me of a duck hunt I made this last January. The guide had a Cosmo male and he had to beat on the dog every two minutes just to try and keep him still and the dog whinned in the blind the entire time!

Nothing wrong with bring in different lines that are clear. I would look at some talented and athletic Agility Labs. A high percentage of them can hunt all day long.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

EIC has been found in all Labrador lines, in multiple countries and in three other breeds of dog.

It is called EXERCISE induced collapse. Imagine how many other lines and/or breeds carry the allele, in high concentrations, but are not being tested, because "we don't have it in our lines/breed"?

It is not a perfect world. When people try to make something that is "good enough" into perfect, the result is disaster.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

A high percentage of the athletic agility Labs are actually sired by FC's


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Everyone has their own concerns and gets to make their own decisions. 

I have purchased a well bred puppy that could have carried the EIC gene and frankly didn't care at the time whether it was a carrier or not. I would do so in the future.

I don't know what the "original intent" of the breed was and I don't care. I know what I want my dogs to do - compete in Nationals - and I buy puppies with that purpose in mind.

As for those arguing about the health of the breed, I have paid for five cruciate surgeries. And I have rehabbed my dogs after those five surgeries. I assure you that I am more concerned about ACL issues then EIC carrier issues.

As for those - including my good friend Dennis - who are concerned about breedings

I have two FC/AFC males with excellent hips, normal elbows, CNM clear (EIC was not an issue at the time), carried chocolate gene, handsome animals, with good structure - each bred once. One - Zowie - was a National Amateur Finalist. 

I have two FC/AFC bitches, who for different reasons, were spayed before either could be bred.

Consequently, breeding my dogs is one of the last concerns I have.

I am looking for a healthy, sound dog.

Others obviously disagree, but I could care less if the dog is a carrier or not - if it is a performer.

I know of one male who has close to 150 AA points who is a carrier
Good looking, good structure, one helluva of a performer. And I have seen puppies that he has sired that look marvelous in training. No one wants to breed to him. I think it is a shame.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> EIC is a much smaller percentage outside of Field.


Not really. You would be very surprised, but as the conformation lines start testing, they certainly are turning up with more carriers than they thought as well as European lines.

In fact I found the Finnish Labrador Club website where they openly show EIC, CNM and PRA testing.
http://www.labradori.fi/index_en.html


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

John Kelder said:


> No way . We owe it to the breed to eliminate this problem.* As long as I live , I will not own a carrier* .You do not know what will happen down the road with "Joe Duckwhacker" as mentioned earlier .Franco and Harry Williams are right on.
> And isn't one of the main purposes of competing is to find stock worthy of breeding ? Of course the most dedicated to our breed should lead the way . IMVHO .I doubt I will change anyone's mind ,so don't try to change mine !!


Sorry but if you own a dog *it is a carrier* - a carrier of something. All pure breed dogs are estimated to carry 30+ recessive traits. Everytime we narrow the gene pool by eliminating carriers we are statistically increasing the expression of another, potentially more debilitating recessive trait that hasn't yet been expressed. This is why the world's leading geneticists never recommend eliminating carriers from the gene pool rather they recommend using available testing to prevent affecteds from being produced.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Granddaddy said:


> Sorry but if you own a dog *it is a carrier* - a carrier of something. All pure breed dogs are estimated to carry 30+ recessive traits. Everytime we narrow the gene pool by eliminating carriers we are statistically increasing the expression of another, potentially more debilitating recessive trait that hasn't yet been expressed. This is why the world's leading geneticists never recommend eliminating carriers from the gene pool rather they recommend using available testing to prevent affecteds from being produced.


No need to be sorry . As this thread was clearly about EIC , my post was intentioned to mean that I will never own an EIC carrier .And the easiest way to prevent affecteds/carriers from being produced , IMVHO ,is to only breed clear dogs.The Labrador gene pool is so large that this alone can be used to a breeder's distinct advantage to go clear to clear w/o worrying about other debilitating traits. Again ,just a small breeder's opinion.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Angie B said:


> Out of the mouth of babes.... :razz:
> 
> I couldn't in a million years change your way of thinking.... Or would I care to.
> 
> ...


I'd rather live in a vacuum than talk down to people .And for your information , People do change my mind on different subject matters .And properly presented , when it comes to MY dogs ,I am all ears to different opinions.Just nothing has come close on this particular subject to do so .
You may climb back on your high horse now .


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

John

I suggest you go to the University of Minnesota website (does anyone have the link), where the researchers who isolated the EIC gene recommend against the course of action that you propose.

Ted


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> John
> 
> I suggest you go to the University of Minnesota website (does anyone have the link), where the researchers who isolated the EIC gene recommend against the course of action that you propose.
> 
> Ted


As have all of the other posters on RTF with training in genetics.

Buck


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I am very surprised that only 3-4 posts out of 50 have referenced the sex of the EIC carrier puppy. It is very important in the decision. Anybody that buys a puppy should hope that their dog may be the ultimate FC-AFC or even National Champion. Today, EIC carrier males have a far lower prospect of being bred. In the past, if they had been proven producers but their status was not announced or even unknown, they were sought out. That is much less true today. Males don't ask to be bred, they are only asked to be bred. Females do the asking. If clear, a good female EIC carrier is not turned down by a clear male. Puppies can be tested and sold "as is". The difference is that if I had a female EIC carrier I could find a willing partner. If I had a top preformer EIC male I would have to wait for a offer. Ask those who have an EIC carrier stud how many offers they have had (if they have been upfront about their stud's status).
> 
> I'd buy an EIC carrier female pup but not an EIC carrier male since I am always hopeful my male could be worthy of being a stud dog.
> 
> ...


Very sad what you are saying but very true


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Sorry but if you own a dog *it is a carrier* - a carrier of something. All pure breed dogs are estimated to carry 30+ recessive traits.


 Exactly, this is why I cringe when I see someone post a reference to a "clean" sire on RTF. Especially, when the sire referenced is deceased long before the ability to test for CNM and EIC or any of new up and coming genetic tests.


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## Loren Crannell (Apr 12, 2008)

I can understand what Dennis is saying about the sex of the carrier, since a person may have more options in the future. Never the less, I think it would be sad to not even look at the male.

When I flew back to Florida a year or so ago to pick up my puppy, I had the last female EIC carrier pup. We like female dogs in our home so I went to go pick her up. It took me about five minutes to know that this dog wasn't going to work for me. Independent, willful, and not a team player.

Somebody had dropped out of the last male EIC carrier pup, and immediately, I knew that this dog was for me. He showed a willingness to be a team. I didn't want a male, my wife didn't want a male, and my daughter didn't want a male, but he turned out to be a loving and considerate dog and he is the first one in his litter to compete in the derby. It was quite a surprise when I returned home.

I made the right choice. I have a great dog that sits next to me and he is competing. Why train and spend all of the money and time to base it on sex/EIC carrier status. Breeding is the last thing on my mind when I buy a dog because I wouldn't trade the ability to get a Blue ribbon over having puppies any day.

Of all of the things to worry about, I worry about my dog inhaling something, getting injured, etc. 

Loren


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## Rocketman88 (Feb 6, 2010)

just a bit of info.... 
It is simply not practical to eliminate all EIC carriers from our breeding pool of dogs since many of these dogs carry desirable traits that have taken several generations to produce. http://www.hightest.com/vet_ex-collapse.php


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> John
> 
> I suggest you go to the University of Minnesota website (does anyone have the link), where the researchers who isolated the EIC gene recommend against the course of action that you propose.
> 
> Ted


Ted , thanks for the info ,it is greatly appreciated. But , as a man who will perhaps breed another 10 litters in his lifetime ,I think my position is solid . Though I will check out your info . I may be getting old enough to not want to have pups , but not too old to learn!!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Food for thought:

Since we do NOT have a DNA test for hip dysplasia, we go strictly by phenotype, i.e. the physical evidence we can see.

We are told that HD is a multi-genetic inherited disorder (likely recessive or a more complex mode of inheritance). Going by the evidence we can see, (hip xray results), we "guess" at the genetic makeup of the dog. 

Thus, unless a dog/bitch has produced 100% clear hips (meaning ALL offspring have been xrayed), we cannot even begin to "guess" that the subject dog/bitch is "clear" of all of the genes involved that produce HD. Even one dysplastic offspring would mean that the dog/bitch is not perfectly "clear".

With genetic testing, one can know exactly where we stand in regard to likelihood of producing affected, carrier or clear offspring. This is WAY better than we can "predict" with hips and elbow production. 

Some combos produce better than others in hips and elbows. Do we eliminate the bitch and dog who produced a certain unsatisfactory result? Or are we likely to try at least one other combo to see how it meshes? No need to guess with a genetic test.

Would you have eliminated Lean Mac because he produced 10 dypslastic pups out of 100? (I don't know how many pups he produced; or how many dysplastic. Just an hypotheical example). That's a 10% affected rate. Look at it another way, 10 litters of 10 pups & one dysplastic pup in each litter. Shoot! I'd think that was pretty good production. 

So, with a genetic test, you are able to control/manage on variable reliably. That allows you to concentrate on other variables over which you may have less control. Sounds like a good deal to me.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

moscowitz said:


> A carrier breed to a non carrier can produce carriers and non carriers. I have a young dog who is out of a breeding non carrier to carrier and he is a non carrier. Or EIC clear. It is the infected carrier that should not be breed.


to clarify, Mike has a chessie and he is talking about DM...(just so people don't think you've gone to the dark side Mike  )

it isn't infected, it is 'affected'. Infected means contagious, which genetic diseases are not.

I would have no problem breeding a carrier or even affected dog...Do so _*intelligently (in other words the dog has got to be exceptional)*_ - not EVERY affected dog should be bred, but I know there are affected dogs that exhibit very few symptoms and are able to compete in trials...bred to a clear, you will get all carrier pups and no affected pups...

Juli


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