# HRC Running Order



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Don't want to know all of the reasons why this would happen. Just wanted to see what the experiences of others have been.

Recent HRC Finished Test. Show up for the test dog at about 8:30 am and get my name on the list to run. Marshall asks if I have any other tests to run. Answer no. Marshall says that he'll list me on the side and I can run later.
12:50 told to get dog ready to run.

It has been my experience in HRC tests that you give the marshall your dog number and they put you on the list to run. They will work in those handlers with dogs in other stakes etc. This was the 1st time I've heard of the marshall telling the handler they will be put on the side and allowed to run after everyone who tells them they have dogs elsewhere. 

BTW, our flight was the last to finish the morning test.

Anyone else have this experience?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

No not my experience. I have marshalled a bunch and never done that. You try to work in the folks with multiple dogs but not put a single handler aside.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

I've often thought that the HRC Judges and Handlers seminar, (which is not just for judges) should touch on good marshalling techniques also. I don't judge AKC, or run enough to comment on that venue, but with no limit on entries, that venue's problems are even greater.
Too often, marshalls are a warm body with a clipboard, and no idea of the important roll they play in making a stake run smoothly. 


:2c: JD


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

The problem you run into is handlers running other stakes. If those multiple handlers didn't get to run when they are at the stake then the other stakes would suffer. If you only had one dog then why would it matter, you were going to be there at that stake anyway. It happens in every stake from started, seasoned and finished. We all want to get done early, but if the multiple handlers had to wait on everyone else to run then we wouldn't get done until dark. I also instruct our marshals to make sure multiply stake handlers get to run before everyone else. I'm the hunt test secretary for our club and after the test I'm cleaning, putting up equipment and then working for hours getting all of the paper work done when everyone else is at home or on there way home. No complaints here but while everyone else is done, my work just begin.


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## S Goldby (Jan 20, 2008)

I love running HRC tests as well as my dog. I have to say that the Marshalls have always been a point of aggravation for me at HRC tests. There is always a lot of home cooking, and the buddy system in determining the running order. I understand that the pros need to run their dogs to keep the flight moving and go to other flights. My point is first come, first served and dont move me and my dog back if we are within four dogs of running or tell me to get ready and I have my dog out of the truck and push me back two dogs. Or the marshall's buddy comes up late and then he is mysteriously inserted into the running order ahead of others. That is just wrong. If need be, let's go to a running order system like the AKC even though that system is not perfect.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

FSG, if people like you would volunteer to Marshal then you could get your dog in first.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Times two Kim, Bill Watson


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

It is a matter of fact, not opinion, that if it takes an average of 7 minutes to run a given test and there are 20 dogs in the flight, it will take 140 minutes to run the 20 dogs. Add in a re-bird every 5 dogs at 10 minutes each and that is another 30 minutes. Add in another 30 minutes for the unexpected and you have 230 minutes to run that series.

These numbers are just made up, but the point is that these numbers won't change based on the number of dogs a given handler is running.

The thing that will cause a delay is having a stake waiting for a dog/handler to show up or having to run by dogs because one handler has to run dogs back to back when there is an honor.

There are more effective ways to prevent this from happening than making single dog handlers run last iin every stake.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> FSG, if people like you would volunteer to Marshal then you could get your dog in first.


Just because FSG didn't marshall your tests doesn't mean FSG doesn't volunteer. I've seen FSG at many tests and trials helping with set up, shooting flyers etc. 

And besides, if fsg were to marshall your test, you've already said that FSG have to make the single dog handlers run last. So how would that be an improvement?


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## TDB87 (Apr 8, 2011)

Geez, Some of ya'll need to slow down and live a little.lol. Enjoy the test and watch the other dogs run. I ran a HRC finished test this past weekend and sure i would of like to of ran second to get it done with.BUT, at the begining of our flight we had several people with one dog (including myself) and three pro's.Well shoot yea!! All The pros are there AND since we're on land and doing honor this morning let's put them three back to back to back. I told the marshall "Hey lets get them rolling out just put me in or move me around to keep this going!" (he put me on the side and moved me around scratched me out moved me around some more.. I didnt care i had one dog and no where else to go.I did notice one issue..Several handlers in our flight showed up between 9-10 and didnt want to sit around to run and expected to run right away(and had only 1 -2 dogs). Well once there is a method to the madness don't try to screw it up by being sour about waiting. Just get out of the bed and be there when the handlers meeting starts. I had a great time this weekend tho!!Thanks, Music City! Excellent test,people,judges,location I'll def. be at ya'lls future test!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

TDB87 said:


> Geez, Some of ya'll need to slow down and live a little.lol. Enjoy the test and watch the other dogs run. I ran a HRC finished test this past weekend and sure i would of like to of ran second to get it done with.BUT, at the begining of our flight we had several people with one dog (including myself) and three pro's.Well shoot yea!! All The pros are there AND since we're on land and doing honor this morning let's put them three back to back to back. I told the marshall "Hey lets get them rolling out just put me in or move me around to keep this going!" (he put me on the side and moved me around scratched me out moved me around some more.. I didnt care i had one dog and no where else to go.I did notice one issue..Several handlers in our flight showed up between 9-10 and didnt want to sit around to run and expected to run right away(and had only 1 -2 dogs). Well once there is a method to the madness don't try to screw it up by being sour about waiting. Just get out of the bed and be there when the handlers meeting starts. I had a great time this weekend tho!!Thanks, Music City! Excellent test,people,judges,location I'll def. be at ya'lls future test!


Don't know what test you were at and don't care. I'm not going to mention what test I was at or when it was. And no one said anything about showing up at 9 or 10 and expecting to run. This thread is about being there for the test dog and being told you can't run until everyone else is done. Try to follow what's going on here.

Glad you had fun at Music City though.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I think "putting you on the side" was just his way of keeping track of things. I always prefer to at least be put in the main lineup and bumped down if needed. At least I know I haven't been forgotten. As a marshall I always feel better get 5-6 dogs ran real fast and get things moving. Don't know if it were an honor situation or not, but someone with several dogs can bind things up if there are no bye dogs around.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

First off not every stake had single handlers waiting until the end. The only way things will run smooth is multiply stake handlers run while they are at that stake. We must have done something right because we ran 41 dogs in Started, 37 dogs in Seasoned and 27 dogs in 4 Flights of finished and we were done by 5 on Saturday and 4 on Sunday. We were shorted handed at the test with not many people helping out. You could have Volunteered to help out if you only had one dog. The only thing you can do is come on a public forum and complain. By the way we are talking about Music City HRC test last weekend in Nashville TN. I'm the hunt test secretary and with a lot of club members missing this weekend we put on one of the largest HRC hunt test in the country. Believe it or not 99 % of our handlers were happy, I guess you can't make everyone happy. I would dare to say this wouldn't have been an issue if a ribbon was taken home. I work my butt off every year to make we put on the best test possible for every handler and I also add flights just to make sure every handlers gets an opportunity to run our hunt test. Sorry you were upset but maybe next time you can come up and help us marshal since we don't have a clue how to run a test.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> First off not every stake had single handlers waiting until the end. The only way things will run smooth is multiply stake handlers run while they are at that stake. We must have done something right because we ran 41 dogs in Started, 37 dogs in Seasoned and 27 dogs in 4 Flights of finished and we were done by 5 on Saturday and 4 on Sunday. We were shorted handed at the test with not many people helping out. You could have Volunteered to help out if you only had one dog. The only thing you can do is come on a public forum and complain. By the way we are talking about Music City HRC test last weekend in Nashville TN. I'm the hunt test secretary and with a lot of club members missing this weekend we put on one of the largest HRC hunt test in the country. Believe it or not 99 % of our handlers were happy, I guess you can't make everyone happy. I would dare to say this wouldn't have been an issue if a ribbon was taken home. I work my butt off every year to make we put on the best test possible for every handler and I also add flights just to make sure every handlers gets an opportunity to run our hunt test. Sorry you were upset but maybe next time you can come up and help us marshal since we don't have a clue how to run a test.


What makes you think I was talking about Music City?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I didn't take Glen's post as "complaining" but more of a question as to how things usually run in HRC.


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## S Goldby (Jan 20, 2008)

Kim, I do volunteer and have been a marshall as well as a fight manager for HRC/AKC hunt tests as well as feild trials. I have even helped set up and take down at your clubs tests not as a volunteer but as a handler just trying to help out. When I marshall my goal is to get every dog/handler team through the test as quickly as possible. The difference is everyone is equal and the first one's at the test whether a pro or individual are put on the list and the list takes in account folks with multiple dogs. Everyone has paid their money and no one should be treated any differently and all shoud have an enjoyable weekend with freinds and their dogs. Isn't this what the HRC is all about?


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm a nice guy and most on here will vouch for me, but its people like you that make our job of putting on a test hard. I'm going to post your PM since it was addressed to me and you can call us out any time because we try our best to put on the best test possible. Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself but I'll put in a good word for you at other HRC test. Maybe you need to run FT's 



> figured the word probably came from the top as we had two marshalls and both said the same thing. The reason it matters is because...
> 1. no one wants to to sit around all day waiting to run.
> 2. high drive dogs are easier to run when they haven't been couped up in a trailer for 4-5 hours.
> 3. fresh birds float higher in the water.
> ...


Because of this PM......


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Hello, SOMEONE ALWAYS ends up running last!!! This time it was you. Get over it!!! Multiple stake, multiple dogs (pro or amat.) get put in the front half to 3/4 of the field depending on how many dogs are running in the stake and how many of these dogs are with multiple dog handlers. 
If you find that you are constantly running last at every HRC test, then you may have a leg to stand on. But to rant after having to run last at one test? Come on! 
If you want to get a better position in the running order do the following:

1) arrive early!! Be there during the set up and talk with the Marshal at that time. Unless they are helping set up the test of course. Bugging them at this time will guarantee that you will run last.

2) Offer to run at a specific number. If the field is 50 dogs deep, then pick an arbitrary number between say 15-35.

3) Check back with the Marshal a couple of times. Late comers will try to butt in or bully their way into an early slot and the Marshal is not going to remember who is who. Remember, the Marshal is often the wife or friend of someone on the HT committee, not a "full time" Marshal. If they are of the non confrontational type, which most people are, then they will try to please everyone which is usually the person in their face at that given time. 

4) ALWAYS BE POLITE!!! There is no place for bad mouthing, grumbling, ranting or raving at the Marshal or to your friends with in ear shot of the Marshal. I can guarantee that the Marshal would rather be somewhere else too.

5) Offer to help! Get those pro's and amat.'s with multiple dogs off their tailgates and get them in line! The Marshal can only be in one place at a time and there are people who like to piddly fart around getting their dogs aired and the in the holding blinds!
If there is a pro or amat. with multiple dogs, offer to have one "in the hole" waiting for them so that they can cycle through their dogs at a faster rate, especially if it is a long walk to the line.

6) While you are waiting, offer to gun *Started* or dry ducks or help with the rebird process. It will be remembered and you will be thanked with a better position instead of cursed. Especially if you mention that if you can run early, that you will then be able to help out more! 

Take some responsibility for your own actions, or the lack there of, instead of lamenting about how "someone done you wrong". You are a grown up aren't you?


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## RedlegHunter (May 19, 2010)

Well I am by no means an experienced handler and I only have one dog which I think when I count it up I have run 9 times total as her handler in Started, Seasoned, and Finished combined. Even though it can be frustrating to be slid around for multiple dog handlers I just expect it and don't let it bother me. I will say MCHRC ran a great test this past weekend and even though they were short handed it still went smoothly or so it seemed to me. I just try to be at the stake as early as I can and if they need help then I pitch in whether setting up, tearing down or whatever else is needed to help out. I can say that in about every test I have ever run no matter where I was at if I was at the test site for set up and the test dog then I rarely ran lower than the 10th or 12th dog in the flight and sometimes as high up as 1st or 2nd dog. Maybe I am just lucky but I also have never been bumped for a multiple dog handler once I have been told to ready my dog to run.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> I'm a nice guy and most on here will vouch for me, but its people like you that make our job of putting on a test hard. I'm going to post your PM since it was addressed to me and you can call us out any time because we try our best to put on the best test possible. Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself but *I'll put in a good word for you at other HRC test.* Maybe you need to run FT's
> 
> 
> 
> Because of this PM......


Well Kim, maybe you don't know what a PM is. It stands for private message and means that it is private and not on a public forum. I have no problem calling you out in a private message. But note that I did not call you out or complain about Music City in any way on a public forum. You did that.

Edit: BTW the part I bolded appears to be a threat of some sort. I wonder if UKC/HRC would agree?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I would like to add that I just Judged at a test in Norfolk NE that had a fairly full test (unusually pleasant weather too! It's usually hotter than heck which is why I offered to Judge rather then run) that pulled it off with just FIVE members!!! It took some offers to help by some contestants, some gunning by the Marshal, us Judges, and the bird boys were stuck out there all day. They still put on a great test, awesome banquet, and gained 4 more members because of it! 
So, please. If you are not running multiple dogs, or needing to be somewhere for something more urgent, help out!!! They will be grateful and you may end up on someone's Christmas card list


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

firehouselabs said:


> ...
> *If you find that you are constantly running last at every HRC test, then you may have a leg to stand on. But to rant after having to run last at one test? Come on!*
> *If you want to get a better position in the running order do the following:*
> ...


This particular club's Hunt Secretary instructed the marshall to put single dog handlers to the rear. So, with this particular club, none of your suggestions would work. Thet are good tips though.


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

I judge HRC and as a judge it depends on the situation. If I have pros or am's running multilple stakes and they are at my stake then I want the marshall to get them signed up so they can be on their way. If a pro or am comes from another stake and has other stakes to return to, I like to see the marshall get them in line somewhere up front and moving on. If that means you get bumped a few then you will have to live with it. However, I have judge many stakes where after the morning series I am waiting on 1 Pro or Am that is at another stake and I can't break my test down and set up the land or water series in the afternoon until they come and run mine. So now we have the Marshall on the phone tracking them down so we can get the series over with and move on to the next series so all of us can end the day at a decent time. So which would you rather have, being bumped a few down or waiting around before the land or water series can run in the afternoon because we are waiting on a few. It takes a good Marshall to keep things moving and handlers and dogs in the blinds waiting. Funny thing is that it seems like a lot of the tests I am at no one wants to be the 1st, 2nd or 3rd dog. We have to volunteer the handlers to run.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Don't want to know all of the reasons why this would happen. Just wanted to see what the experiences of others have been.
> 
> Recent HRC Finished Test. Show up for the test dog at about 8:30 am and get my name on the list to run. Marshall asks if I have any other tests to run. Answer no. Marshall says that he'll list me on the side and I can run later.
> 12:50 told to get dog ready to run.
> ...


Each person that marshals probably have their own system. Actually I group into three groups. 1 those who have dogs in other series. 2 Those that have more than 1 dog running but only in this flight. 3. Those that have only 1 dog. And lastly those dogs that are running, in holding blind and getting ready to run. 

As Kim said, you must get those handlers that have dogs running in other series finished and off to the other series as quickly as possible. I try not to put more than 4 dogs on the running list in advance. If you do and a handler comes up that must go to another stake, then you wind up having to bump people back that have checked the list. this causes some to get upset. By only having no more than 4 dogs in the running order, it is much easier not to have to bump anyone back, AND ELIMINATES HAVING TO TELL A HANDLER THAT HAS ALREADY GOTTEN HIS DOG OUT IN ANTICIPATION TO RUN, THAT HE WILL BE AS MUCH AS AN HOUR BEFORE HE CAN RUN.

It takes more work on my part. I have to learn the handlers and the dogs they have. But It allows me to tell them to" relax and enjoy the dogs running." I will find you and let you know when you are to run in plenty of time and I am doing everything I can to allow you to run once you are prepared to." "Your dog is just as important as any here." "So be patient and enjoy the dogs."

It would be easier to just line up the dogs that are there at the time and if a handler comes up with 7 dogs and has to finish her and go to another series to just bump people back and tell someone that he will now have to wait for the 6 dogs that just showed up to run and he now runs 18th instead of 12th. 

Above all I try to let the handler that has only 1 dog is just as important as one that has 8.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

RedlegHunter said:


> ... I just try to be at the stake as early as I can and if they need help then I pitch in whether setting up, tearing down or whatever else is needed to help out. I can say that in about every test I have ever run no matter where I was at if I was at the test site for set up and the test dog then I rarely ran lower than the 10th or 12th dog in the flight and sometimes as high up as 1st or 2nd dog....


This had been my experience also until this test.

This was the first test where I have been told as a handler of a single dog, I must run after all of the multiple dog handlers have finished running.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I have judged the Music City HT several times, and find it always well run and efficient. They usually have big numbers and do very well with them.
When I am a judge, I instruct the marshal to find our multiple dog handlers and handlers who have dogs in other stakes and get them accounted for and at the front of the line. This is only common courtesy for the other judges, marshals and handlers. If you really want to make it a late day, wait for a pro who is at another stake to run last who has several dogs and it is an honor situation. Bye dogs, handler going back and forth to get the dogs, bird boys getting out of their rhythym and losing concentration all go to making it a longer day.
Music City always does a great job of putting on a great test,
I have been running HRC tests for years and find your situation to be the norm nationwide.
The only time it matters what time you run in a HT, is on Sunday afternoon if you have a long drive home. Then it does make a 2-3 hour difference for your early departure home.
Best of luck in the future
MP


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> I'm a nice guy and most on here will vouch for me, but its people like you that make our job of putting on a test hard. I'm going to post your PM since it was addressed to me and you can call us out any time because we try our best to put on the best test possible. Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself but I'll put in a good word for you at other HRC test. Maybe you need to run FT's
> 
> 
> 
> Because of this PM......


Bonehead,glad I don't run hunt tests.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

I do run and judge a bunch of HRC. I'll say right up front that it is very unusual for a single dog handler to be bumped or to placed to the side - never heard of this before. HRC tends to be pretty informal and with our format and points schedule, oftentimes most of us are quite familiar to each other and if not, we're glad to meet someone new. I'd venture many finished tests could quite well run pretty smoothly w/o a marshal simply with a modicum of politeness, a white board and a walkie talkie tuned to the other stakes.

This is not the first time I have heard someone more used to other venues complain about HRC's running order or lack thereof. Most of the time the problem is someone who is unfamiliar with the etiquette involved, or, and I'm not saying this is the case.... someone who is never quite happy unless things go exactly their way.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

captainjack said:


> This had been my experience also until this test.
> 
> This was the first test where I have been told as a handler of a single dog, I must run after all of the multiple dog handlers have finished running.


I can't imagine yur being told that you had to run last because you only had 1 dog. The fact is you need dogs to run between those handlers that have multiple dogs. nothing worse than having a handler that has 6 dogs and has to run them back to back with no dogs to run in between. I can't imagine your having to wait while a handler ran dogs back to back and you running after him(her). It might be that you misunderstood.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

First off Captain, I don't even know who you are other than your screen name. Second off Captain, putting in a good word for you is a threat to you then maybe you need to stay home. Third thing Captain, I volunteer my time and please if you can get me fired please do so I don't have worry about someone getting there feeling hurt because they ran last. Fourth thing Captain I worked my butt off so you could run our test. Fifth thing Captain you picked a bad day to call me out because I'm tired and worked many hours for your enjoyment. Sixth thing Captain please find 4 other handlers that will agree with you, that we didn't do the best we could with the number of dogs we had then I'll make sure you run first...... 

By the way I post with my name because I have nothing to hide, so if you have something to say please post don't PM and if you have helped at our test a very big thinks to you and I'm serious....


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

All I want to know is did you pass or fail? Would this even be an issue if you did pass. Please let me know what flight you were in and number so I can get to the bottom of this.

Sorry Chris, but just getting all of the paper work done and getting everything sent off today for my handlers, this thread kind of hit me the wrong way......


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

firehouselabs said:


> Hello, SOMEONE ALWAYS ends up running last!!! This time it was you. Get over it!!! Multiple stake, multiple dogs (pro or amat.) get put in the front half to 3/4 of the field depending on how many dogs are running in the stake and how many of these dogs are with multiple dog handlers.
> If you find that you are constantly running last at every HRC test, then you may have a leg to stand on. But to rant after having to run last at one test? Come on!
> If you want to get a better position in the running order do the following:
> 
> ...


What the h_ll are you talking about?
This thread is not about being polite,lamenting or complaining.
Who are you, to talk down to or instruct the guy on how to act.
You are not his momma, get a life!!!


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## Marsh Mule (Oct 16, 2009)

I ran under Mike this spring at Music City. Great test, great grounds and great people despite an Air show receeding flood waters etc. Helped setup and breakdown both series, shot for several handlers etc. Ran 2nd on both series becuse alot of guys in my flight had started dogs and couldn't get there for an hour or so. I think i was an alternate judge for started if needed. I needed to get out of there to be home for mothers day, so anything I could do to keep things moving got me home quicker, and i wasn't doing anything but watching dogs and swatting mosquitoes anyway.

I'm in a very small club and we always have handlers from other clubs help us out with no questions. Without them we'd be hard pressed to get everything done. Even though Kim runs one of the largest test in the country with a great membership, we all need a little help sometime to get through the weekend. 

Sorry if you had a bad experience. There is always next weekend.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thinks Cary for helping out this weekend and Marshalling out test. I hope your flight went well, felt sorry for the started judges. They had to do everything for themeselves with no help. Hopefully this will never happen again......

I have a hard time believing if you were there early you couldn't get in, because I sent all of the Pro's to Started and Seasoned first so they wouldn't have to wait.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

I ran Central La this past weekend with 2 dogs in Finished. I had no where else to go so I told the marshal to put me where ever he needed me. Would I have liked to run early and get out of the HEAT, absolutely. But we had several multi dog handlers and handlers that needed to be at other stakes so as someone who had two dogs in that stake only, I left it up to the marshal. Each day, I ran one dog early (between a multi dog handler) and one dog late (again between a multi dog handler).

IMHO, Everyone needs to remember a couple of things. #1 is that every dog has to run and somebody is always going to be last. #2 is that everyone there are volunteers. They are working for their club so that we can run our dogs. Our marshal at Central La this weekend wasn't running a dog at all and was there for us.

Janet


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> First off Captain, I don't even know who you are other than your screen name. Second off Captain, putting in a good word for you is a threat to you then maybe you need to stay home. Third thing Captain, I volunteer my time and please if you can get me fired please do so I don't have worry about someone getting there feeling hurt because they ran last. Fourth thing Captain I worked my butt off so you could run our test. Fifth thing Captain you picked a bad day to call me out because I'm tired and worked many hours for your enjoyment. Sixth thing Captain please find 4 other handlers that will agree with you, that we didn't do the best we could with the number of dogs we had then I'll make sure you run first......
> 
> By the way I post with my name because I have nothing to hide, so if you have something to say please post don't PM and if you have helped at our test a very big thinks to you and I'm serious....


My name and home state are clearly shown at the bottom of my posts. You know exactly who I am so don't pretend. Remember its guys like me that.... well you know the rest of what you wrote. And you obviously think you can influence other HRC clubs in how they will treat me. And belive me, my communication with the HRC has nothing to do with getting you fired. I would just be trying to protect the integrity of the game.

I use PM when what I have to say will not benefit the members of the RTF. I certainly don't use it becasue I have something to hide. That is the point of having PM feature - no benefit to others on the RTF.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

As the Hunt Sec. said, it was a very big hunt and they were short handed. More than likely the marshal was someone who was just a "live body" that was put into a job they had never seen before and never fully understood. They were maybe told to run single dogs last and took it literaly. If you were getting anxious during the morning you might have let the marshal know you were ready to run POLITELY. A big hunt is difficult to put on with a full compliment of member help. I commend Music City for putting on a big hunt under difficult conditions and you should be thankful for having a place to run your dog.

Just for fun I ran your name for previous posts. It was interesting. Bill Watson member #2024L judge #2253retired.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Bill Watson said:


> As the Hunt Sec. said, it was a very big hunt and they were short handed. More than likely the marshal was someone who was just a "live body" that was put into a job they had never seen before and never fully understood. They were maybe told to run single dogs last and took it literaly. If you were getting anxious during the morning you might have let the marshal know you were ready to run POLITELY. A big hunt is difficult to put on with a full compliment of member help. I commend Music City for putting on a big hunt under difficult conditions and you should be thankful for having a place to run your dog.
> 
> Just for fun I ran your name for previous posts. It was interesting. Bill Watson member #2024L judge #2253retired.


If you find what I have to say either fun or interesting then I worry about you

Anyway the HS at the test I ran has written here that he told the marshalls to put single dog handlers to the rear. Experienced or not, they did what they were told to do. And I don't bug the marshall to move me anywhere. Politely or otherwise. I run when I'm told to run. I do check in with the marshall to see where I am in the order and I do let the marshall know that I will move up to fill a hole if need be.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

golfandhunter said:


> What the h_ll are you talking about?
> This thread is not about being polite,lamenting or complaining.
> Who are you, to talk down to or instruct the guy on how to act.
> You are not his momma, get a life!!!



And you are who? His daddy? I have a life thank you very much. And Thank Goodness it is filled with less drama then a couple of people on this thread have! Part of that life is filled with running and judging in Hunt tests and just having fun with the dogs and with like minded folks. 
The OP was wondering if this was the norm for HRC and wanting others to join in on his sob story about "GOD FORBID" having to run last! Oh! The Horror! Someone call 9-1-1 !!! You know, it happened, it's not the end of the world, it may or may not happen again, get over it. Like I said, someone HAS to run last. 
As far as the friendly (and they were) tips to try to prevent this from being an every test occurrence, the OP said a gracious THANK YOU. To which I will reply: You are most welcome. 
As to you "golfandhunter", butt out yourself. You give absolutely nothing to this conversation other than drivel.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Music City always puts on a great test! No further comment.
Mark Land


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

captainjack said:


> If you find what I have to say either fun or interesting then I worry about you
> 
> Anyway the HS at the test I ran has written here that he told the marshalls to put single dog handlers to the rear. Experienced or not, they did what they were told to do. And I don't bug the marshall to move me anywhere. Politely or otherwise. I run when I'm told to run. I do check in with the marshall to see where I am in the order and I do let the marshall know that I will move up to fill a hole if need be.


Again Captain, You must have misunderstood. I marshalled Finished C part time Saturday and wound up having to help part time Saturday in Started even though I had no dog in Started. I marshaled both Finished C series Sunday and I assure you That the HS NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER TOLD ME TO PUT SINGLE DOGS LAST! I'm not as smart as the HS Bbut I am a lot smarter than that. I can only guess THAT YOU MISUNDERSTOOD.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks for pointing out who you are. Sorry but I see hundreds of people at our test and also when I'm judging each weekend. I'm bad with names but remember faces. I still don't know who you are and I'm sorry for that because I have most timers. I went back through the sheets to see what flight you were in, it looked like we had our best marshals at your flight. They are the best marshals we have, so sorry you didn't like them. They are members of 2 clubs and work both of them. Also if you are going to quote me, I said I instruct the marshals to put multiply stake handlers at the top. I never said make single dog handlers run last, but I'm sure your right and we as a club don't know what we are doing. I sure don't know what I'm doing as the hunt secretary, but I will be the hunt secretary for Music City HRC until the day I die. I will also judge HRC until I die or get fired which ever comes first. Maybe I can search facebook to see who I'm talking too.....Just to let everyone know that runs our test. Multi stake handlers will be moved to the top if possible to make sure we get done early. Nothing worse than making the seasoned or started judges wait hours before a dog shows up at the line. We didn't have to wait on anyone at our test. Thanks for your support and hope to see you next year........


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

caryalsobrook said:


> Again Captain, You must have misunderstood. I marshalled Finished C part time Saturday and wound up having to help part time Saturday in Started even though I had no dog in Started. I marshaled both Finished C series Sunday and I assure you That the HS NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER TOLD ME TO PUT SINGLE DOGS LAST! I'm not as smart as the HS Bbut I am a lot smarter than that. I can only guess THAT YOU MISUNDERSTOOD.


No need to scream. Just because you write in all caps doesn't make what you say accurate.

Did you read Kim's post? He wrote that he instructed the marshall's to run the single dogs last and I take him at his word. He has nothing to gain by not telling the truth.

If you marshalled Finished C then you would be the fellow that told me that you were putting me over here (pointing to the side list with single dog handlers) on the sh!t list. 

I hope you ran well last weekend and appreciate you volunteering to help out at tests. 

As far as misunderstanding, how can I misunerstand giving you my dog number at 8:30 am, checking in about once an hour to make sure where I am on the list, and then being called to run at about 12:50 (after a club member that I know asked the marshall (you had left) to try to get me in because he knew I had been waiting since 8:30).

There isn't much here to misunderstand. On list at 8:30 am, run at 12:50 and the HS told the marshalls to run single dogs last. Not judging, not asking why, simply asked if this was the norm in HRC tests.

Edit: Correction Kim said run multi-dogs first.


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## S Goldby (Jan 20, 2008)

I do think this post has gotten out of hand. I have run at Music City many times and have enjoyed myself and think it is probably one of the most well run Hunt tests in the South. However, I think some of us need to get a little thicker skinned. The original post was about the issues concerning being a marshall at a hunt test. I do think it is a cause of aggravation for most handlers at these events as well as other venues.I would like to see this issue discussed at the national HRC level so that maybe some basic guidelines or policies could be developed which would only help the sport itself, make each event even more enjoyable as well as strengthen our organization.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

When one is perfect then they have the right to complain. Did the whiners have a star in the East when they were born? I think not. I do get tired of prima donnas who think these hunts are put on just for them and they have a duty to complain and offer no workable solution.

Multipal dog handlers have to have time to go back and forth and this takes time and the marshall usually puts two or 3 dogs between their running. Be thoughtful courteous for your fellow handlers and work with the volunteers. 

Also, everyone should be on time and ready to run. Ideally the Marshall should be able to have #00 on the line, #002 in the blind and #007 get ready. This would help all move smoothly and get the dogs run in an orderly manner. 

Remember, this is for fun and enjoyment and not helpful if one bitches and complains. Relax and enjoy the great people you are among. IF NOT -STAY HOME

Oh, by the way, what are you captain of?


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

First off Glen, I searched you on face book. I knew if I seen your face then I would know who you are. Second I want to apologize, but the day after a hunt test I'm wore out and this thread kind of hit me the wrong way. Third we do run hunt test different in HRC versus AKC. We have to run the multi stake handlers when they get to each stake. If we didn't then the judges at the other stake would have to wait on dogs and we would never get done. You had some great Marshals at your flight. They have been doing this for years. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but if want to run in order then I would run AKC Master. It just wouldn't work in HRC to run in order. You ran close to order anyway because you were dog 24 out of 27. Again sorry you had a bad experience and I hope there is no hard feelings. Are you sure you have run our HRC event before, I know you run the AKC events because I meet you East TN.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

fsq, everyone at our test are volunteers giving up there time so we can run our dogs. Everything isn't going to be perfect but I think the way HRC runs things is pretty close. I don't know what could be discussed at the National meeting that would change the way we run out test. Not everyone that runs will leave happy unless they get a ribbon but we try the best we can to help everyone enjoy themselves.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

captainjack said:


> No need to scream. Just because you write in all caps doesn't make what you say accurate.
> 
> Did you read Kim's post? He wrote that he instructed the marshall's to run the single dogs last and I take him at his word. He has nothing to gain by not telling the truth.
> 
> ...


Not screaming just using caps to be perfectly clear. I had to leave to give help with started since they had nobody. As a result I don't know where you ran Saturday. I expect that you surely didn't run last. Had you watched Saturday, Multi dogs were interleaved with those who also had multi-dogs and those that only had one dog. Had I not had to leave, then you would have seen my dog run when there were no other dogs to run or when a dog was need to run between multi-dogs. 

Actually I think Saturday we were done early but can't swer to it since I had to leave. Sunday morning we had to wait 45 minutes for a handler who had dogs in all three series. sunday afternoon, we were agian done early and had to wait a short time for a handler who had other stakes to run.

When and if Kim says run multi-dogs first he means get them don as quickly and as efficiently as possible so they can go on to other stakes they have to run. If we don't then we will delay those stakes that may be waiting on them. 

personally, I would love to just sit down and watch the dogs run. What a joy it is to see what they can do. All volunteers are only trying to give back to the sport and make the event as enjoyable as possible. I might add and thank those volunteers at other clubs that make it possible for me to attend thier tests where I can watch the dogs and just enjoy the event. Nothing like taking my camper and my dogs and just enjoying the event with no responsibility or obligations.


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## CKimbrow (May 20, 2009)

golfandhunter said:


> What the h_ll are you talking about?
> This thread is not about being polite,lamenting or complaining.
> Who are you, to talk down to or instruct the guy on how to act.
> You are not his momma, get a life!!!


Just a question here, but what are you even posting for? You already said you didn't run hunt tests.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to give that guy the time of day.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Cleo, I think a bunch of women from Texas are coming up next spring to judge our mothers day hunt in May, maybe you can come up and join us.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Can I Judge with Cleo??? Please, Please, Pretty Please????!!!! Of course I can only judge in Started so far, or apprentice in Seasoned, but I am willing to travel!!!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Firehouse, you'll have to talk to Janet she is getting the judges together I hope.........


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> It just wouldn't work in HRC to run in order.


gosh that is a bummer Kim.

have you all considered...?
Have a hard close and random draw.
Eliminate the walk up morning of event entry.
When I chaired my first NAHRA Field test here in Vermont.
It was the "Norm" to have half the entry be walk ups. It sucked the big weenie of life. I became the hard ass the refused take um. Stuck to the hard close and random draw. Pissed of a great big bunch of folk. It sucked the big weenie of life. I held fast and didn't care. Nobody even try's to enter walk up now, here. People know the running order before they go to bed the night before the test. I mean obviously a small few exceptions and a one or two person shuffle still takes place... it does every venue BUT.
This entire discussion would be skipped if you did hard close, random draw, no walk up...... simple! SO SIMPLE!!!

How the heck do you even know how many birds to order if you just let folk stagger in wily nilly??? And ammo and lunches for workers and everything else?

The tasks of your entire team would be simplified as well. Nothing like thinking your gonna be shooting for 25 dogs and ending up with 40

This is an obvious flaw in your system.
　
.


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## podunkccrs (Nov 3, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> I'm sorry you had a bad experience but if want to run in order then I would run AKC Master. It just wouldn't work in HRC to run in order.


This is something I have never understood. Why not? AKC has 3 stakes too and people running large numbers of dogs and honors, etc. And if walkups are the variable, then keep spots open throughout the order, ie 5, 10, 15 for the 3 spots finished has left, etc. 

I was not in TN and I run both akc and hrc tests actively(and even Marshall both clubs  ) so please don't take offense to my question, let's just have a discussion.

My opinion is I like to get to a test and have a catalog number that corresponds approximately with when I run.

Thanks!


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

podunkccrs said:


> This is something I have never understood. Why not? AKC has 3 stakes too and people running large numbers of dogs and honors, etc. And if walkups are the variable, then keep spots open throughout the order, ie 5, 10, 15 for the 3 spots finished has left, etc.
> 
> I was not in TN and I run both akc and hrc tests actively(and even Marshall both clubs  ) so please don't take offense to my question, let's just have a discussion.
> 
> ...


Theere is a big difference in signing up for AKC and HRC. AKC closes over a week before the test and all dogs are listed in the catalog. I have gone to an HRC test and entered a dog as late as the day of the test so the dog wasn't even in the catalog. The clubs just have different priorities. It would be wonderful if all you had to do was tape the running order to a tree and didn't even need a marshal to deal with it but even with AKC and their running order, it doesn't always go that way. 

It would be nice if everything went perfectly. Blinds always planted at the right time, no wingers breaking, everybody on time, good weather with no lightening, but rarely does that happen. The main thing is to strive to enjoy the test, enjoy the fellowship and above all enjoy the people you meet. Yes always look to improve but also to have tolorence for those doing the work and your fellow handleers. Just my thoughts.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

The main goal would be to get the multi dog handlers thru the lower stakes first then move them to finished, that has been the HRC plan right along. Upper stakes take presidence over the lower stakes. In other words if a pro or multi dog handler shows up at started and he has other stakes to get to then he needs to go first in the line up. I believe this is the norm in other hunt test venues. So a running order really is just a guide line unless you are in the FT game then you better run when your number is called. 

I have run in the south and was surprised that the stake marshall was letting people put their names in where they wanted to run. That was new to me being from New England where we usually stuck to the running order in all venues as best we could.

As far as walk ups are concerned large clubs like Music City probably don't have a ton of walk ups in Finished they are probably full, it is more then likely that started is where the walk ups happen maybe even seasoned. So bird count usually isn't a big deal and the workers are already there for the stake so that doesn't really come into play.

But when you are in areas where HRC is just growing and the numbers are low it is nice to be able to allow people to enter the day of the event, they will learn quickly if a flight fills to get their entry in on time if they want to run. 

As for running last, well we all have done it one time or another but the biggest no- no is pulling a handler out of a holding blind once they are there with their dog getting ready to run, if this didn't happen to you then there really isn't any reason to complain, get another dog so you fall into the multi dog handler 

I have done Kims job in the past and feel his pain, thank you all for volunteering your time so that I can run my dog. It is never perfect but the big question would be did you have fun with your dog?


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Kim, Take a deep breath and let it out slowly! Now, I know how hard you work and how hard you try to make your test go smoothly and well, but sometimes multiple dog handlers have to wait their turn also while others (including single dog handlers) go ahead of them. In my mind telling single dog handlers the have to run at the end is comparable to call backs, which as you know is a NO-NO in HRC. 

When I marshal, if I have 22 dogs I number my sheet 1 thru 22 then ask the handlers where they would like to run usually starting with multiple dog handlers so we can spread their dogs out. I inform the handlers that we will have multi-dog handlers that we will have to work in so they may get bumped, please understand and bare with us. Have never had a problem doing it this way and most people get to run where they would like. Communication is the key. I know you have to get multi dog handlers in and out but you can't do it to detriment of the other handlers. There has to be give and take. No offense, but you seem to be purposely catering to the multiple dog handlers over the others and this will come back to bite you. 

Now this is my opinion and you may not agree, Like the two of us never disagree , take it as you will. But I am saying this as one friend to another, but I think you were wrong to tell your marshals to run the single dogs last. Guess I'll never be asked back to judge for ya.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Steve Peacock said:


> Kim, Take a deep breath and let it out slowly! Now, I know how hard you work and how hard you try to make your test go smoothly and well, but sometimes multiple dog handlers have to wait their turn also while others (including single dog handlers) go ahead of them. In my mind telling single dog handlers the have to run at the end is comparable to call backs, which as you know is a NO-NO in HRC.
> 
> When I marshal, if I have 22 dogs I number my sheet 1 thru 22 then ask the handlers where they would like to run usually starting with multiple dog handlers so we can spread their dogs out. I inform the handlers that we will have multi-dog handlers that we will have to work in so they may get bumped, please understand and bare with us. Have never had a problem doing it this way and most people get to run where they would like. Communication is the key. I know you have to get multi dog handlers in and out but you can't do it to detriment of the other handlers. There has to be give and take. No offense, but you seem to be purposely catering to the multiple dog handlers over the others and this will come back to bite you.
> 
> Now this is my opinion and you may not agree, Like the two of us never disagree , take it as you will. But I am saying this as one friend to another, but I think you were wrong to tell your marshals to run the single dogs last. Guess I'll never be asked back to judge for ya.


Steve he didn't tell them to put the single dog handlers last he told them to put the multi dog handlers first  there is a difference.


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## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

Happened to me at the first HRC test we ran. Had one seasoned dog and one started dog just to get our feet wet. Went to run the started dog quick and was on the board, but kept getting bumped further and further down. Finally the Seasoned marshall called my cell since I gave it to them and they were down to 5 dogs so we went over there. Came back to started where they had been waiting for us. Judges understood what was going on as others kept getting bumped ahead....Oh well, it was water under the bridge for us, but I did feel bad for the judges and guys loading the wingers for having to wait. The marshall wasn't very happy either, but they had put themselves in that position in my opinion. 

Others I have gone to have been very well managed...The marshall (with the judges cooperation) makes or breaks the organization of the test in my opinion and if the marshall's in all the stakes get along that helps too. Sometimes one has a grudge and its very obvious.


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

Marshall is one tough job, what with wanna be pros expecting to be run the minute they show up to a lower stake. All the HT's I've been to the marshalls work people in with some common sense. If someone has 6 dogs they just alternate with others in the running order.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Margo Ellis said:


> ....I have run in the south and was surprised that the stake marshall was letting people put their names in where they wanted to run. That was new to me being *from New England where we usually stuck to the running order in all venues* as best we could......?


Hey Margo,
imagine walking up to Betsy Bernhard's white board with a sharpie and saying "I'm gonna run right here"............ 
and having to answer for the rest of your life
"So, how did you loose that arm again?";-)
　
　
.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's pretty standard to run multiple dog owners through first, especially in the lowest stake. Why, because it is expedient for all stakes for the entire test to run smoothly, and for the workers sitting out in the field volunteering their time and getting hot, and not about one handler concerned about ME and MY dog that gets wound up. We all have dogs that don't like sitting in the truck. I announce at the beginning of the test what is going to happen, and that is certain people have to run first and workers need to run and then handlers with one dog will run inbetween. The marshall probably said the wrong word and someone got worked up. Maybe that person should offer to help instead of criticize. A long hot day is no fun and it's not about special people, it's about time management and getting done.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> When one is perfect then they have the right to complain. Did the whiners have a star in the East when they were born? I think not. I do get tired of prima donnas who think these hunts are put on just for them and they have a duty to complain and offer no workable solution.


I did not complain. Re-read post #1. I simply stated my experience (not naming a specific club or date) and ask if others see the same thing. There can be no discussion about a workable solution when you and others like Kim immediately get defensive and attack a person for simply asking a question. Again. Re-read post #1.

With that said, no one is perfect, but in everything I do, I am always interested in finding ways to improve. You appear to think that Kim's way is the best way and no one could ever improve upon it. And I'm fine with that.


Cleo Watson said:


> Multipal dog handlers have to have time to go back and forth and this takes time and the marshall usually puts two or 3 dogs between their running. Be thoughtful courteous for your fellow handlers and work with the volunteers.
> 
> Also, everyone should be on time and ready to run. Ideally the Marshall should be able to have #00 on the line, #002 in the blind and #007 get ready. This would help all move smoothly and get the dogs run in an orderly manner.


Stating the obvious. No one should question this and it is the same regardless of venue.



Cleo Watson said:


> Remember, this is for fun and enjoyment and not helpful if one bitches and complains. Relax and enjoy the great people you are among. IF NOT -STAY HOME


I made the decision to not run future Music City's tests about 12:30 Saturday. This is before my dog was called to run and after waiting "on the side" to be slipped in for 4 hours. So, I agree with you 100% here. I was not having fun, I did make the decision to STAY HOME, and I did not ask Music City to change anything with the way they run their tests.

BTW I picked up my dog before running the first series Saturday due to line manners. I didn't stay for Sunday's test because 1. there was a chance that I'd have to pick up my dog again Sunday, and 2. I WAS NOT HAVING FUN waiting "on ths SH!T list" (as Saturday's Marshall put it) to be slipped in after 4 hours of waiting.



Cleo Watson said:


> Oh, by the way, what are you captain of?


Captain Jack is one of my dog's names you ... oh Glen be nice. 

What I am the captain of is not running hunt tests or trials where I don't have a good time.

Not asking anyone to change, just would like to get an idea of which tests that say single dog handlers are relegated to the SH!T list. I guess I could add your club to that list.


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## CanAmMan (Sep 28, 2007)

My only question to the orginal poster is this, you say you got there and got your name on the list at 8:30, well let's say you ran at 8:35, the 1st series still would not end until the last dog ran (according to you, that would have been 12:50PM), so what does it really matter? The only time I can see it make a difference is when dog goes out first series Sunday and you get a head start home.

If you say that waiting 4 hours hurt your dog's line manners then that is a training problem and not a Music City HRC problem.

Somebody has to run first, somebody has to run last and everyone else has to run between them.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Ken the big difference between running AKC is they have more than one day to finish. We all want to get done early so we can relax at the end of the day and if multi stake handlers don't get run and out of that stake we will all be late. Ken could your attitude for not having walks-up be the reason NAHRA went down instead of growing. Your organization started the same time as HRC. (Just sayin) I hope your program grows so anyone that wants to play can. I love all dog games and will make sure as long as I'm the HS of our club anybody that wants to run will get an opportunity if I can find the judges.

Steve please read all post before you come here to tell me I'm doing something wrong. I never said single dogs run last, that was a person who missed quoted me saying...


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## Foxtail (Jun 14, 2011)

kimsmith said:


> The problem you run into is handlers running other stakes. If those multiple handlers didn't get to run when they are at the stake then the other stakes would suffer. If you only had one dog then why would it matter, you were going to be there at that stake anyway. It happens in every stake from started, seasoned and finished. We all want to get done early, but if the multiple handlers had to wait on everyone else to run then we wouldn't get done until dark. I also instruct our marshals to make sure multiply stake handlers get to run before everyone else. I'm the hunt test secretary for our club and after the test I'm cleaning, putting up equipment and then working for hours getting all of the paper work done when everyone else is at home or on there way home. No complaints here but while everyone else is done, my work just begin.


Kim,
I was at the HRC test you organized last weekend. This was my first HRC test to watch. I watched started most of the day and did witness a pro being worked in due the number of dogs he brought. I thought the test ran very smoothly as they were alternating dogs with the pro to keep everything moving. I also did not hurt that the pro was being very freindly and professional. He also thank the others. So I agree with your approach as it worked at this event. Can't say if other events run this smoothly or not. Just my 2cents worth.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

firehouselabs said:


> And you are who? His daddy? I have a life thank you very much. And Thank Goodness it is filled with less drama then a couple of people on this thread have! Part of that life is filled with running and judging in Hunt tests and just having fun with the dogs and with like minded folks.
> The OP was wondering if this was the norm for HRC and wanting others to join in on his sob story about "GOD FORBID" having to run last! Oh! The Horror! Someone call 9-1-1 !!! You know, it happened, it's not the end of the world, it may or may not happen again, get over it. Like I said, someone HAS to run last.
> As far as the friendly (and they were) tips to try to prevent this from being an every test occurrence, the OP said a gracious THANK YOU. To which I will reply: You are most welcome.
> As to you "golfandhunter", butt out yourself. You give absolutely nothing to this conversation other than drivel.


You need to re-read the first post it is not a sob story.
He is simply asking a question. Not knowing his background,
who are you tell him how he should conduct himself at a test
or what his prior experience is with HRC. No one said he was impolite
or had a bad attitude towards anyone at the test.You, need to BUTT OUT
were you there to see what took place? No, I don't think so!! 
Get back in your hole and fill it up with your BS.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

kimsmith said:


> Ken the big difference between running AKC is they have more than one day to finish. We all want to get done early so we can relax at the end of the day and if multi stake handlers don't get run and out of that stake we will all be late. Ken could your attitude for not having walks-up be the reason NAHRA went down instead of growing. Your organization started the same time as HRC. (Just sayin) ......


 
are you sure about that?  ;-) 
we just ran our usual AKC double junior double senior single master 
last month and the month before our double everything NAHRA field test.
The Saturdays tests did indeed finish on Saturday. As to your your hypotheses on the NAHRA numbers I forgive you for you know not what you speak. We actually started a we bit before your hrc Retriever tests and some of your starters were actually here before they were there. Politics and national registry are the reasons to point a finger at. Not that my club has the ability to come up with a running order. 

Going to a test/trial is like going out to eat. Some places you call ahead, make a reservation. Arrive in a timely manor and sign in with the maitre d. 

Other places, your driving past and on a whim you pull up to the drive up take out window. Well, at least you make sure they have the proper dinner jacket on before you serve um.....;-)
　
.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

CanAmMan said:


> My only question to the orginal poster is this, you say you got there and got your name on the list at 8:30, well let's say you ran at 8:35, the 1st series still would not end until the last dog ran (according to you, that would have been 12:50PM), *so what does it really matter? *The only time I can see it make a difference is when dog goes out first series Sunday and you get a head start home.
> 
> If you say that waiting 4 hours hurt your dog's line manners then that is a training problem and not a Music City HRC problem.
> 
> Somebody has to run first, somebody has to run last and everyone else has to run between them.


If running last doesn't matter to so many people, then why don't you see those people going to the marshall and asking if they can run last. Most of the folks I know who run tests prefer to run relatively early for a variety of reasons. If it doesn't matter, then why do so many people at the tests tell the marshall that they need to run early because they have dog's in other stakes, when they actually don't have dog's in other stakes.

When I run stakes that go by a running order, I sometimes run last, sometimes run first, and sometimes I run in the middle. The thing is I know roughly when I will be running. In fact, even at HRC tests I've run in the past that go by a sign up list rather than a catalog order, I still knew roughly when I would be running.

For this test I was told I would be on the Sh!t list and fit into the running order. That means to me that I can not go see my buddies run in seasoned or started, I can not go find a field to give my pup some room to run. When someone tells me that I will be fit in, it means that I need to stay there and be ready to run when called.

And you people who keep talking about volunteering are making me sick. You have no idea what others do at their home clubs or even when on the road. Don't think that you are the only one who volunteers.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

can't believe I read the whole thing...idiot

I have always thought that if I was dog 24 out of 27 (even though HRC doesn't necessarily follow running order) I would expect to probably run close to last.

Sorry you had a bad experience and hopefully it will be better in future. Come to the Wood Duck Wally in Miami, OK Oct 29th and I'll make sure you are the first dog to run seriously.

Jeff


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

CKimbrow said:


> Just a question here, but what are you even posting for? You already said you didn't run hunt tests.


I know the captain, and also know how he conducts 
him self at tests, trials and training. He volunteers alot 
of his time to 2 clubs and volunteers at events that he runs
both HRC and AKC. I am posting for two reasons.
1. Kim should not be posting pms
2. Raina,should not be instucting someone she does 
not know or calling them a cry baby.

PS you HRC people should read Ken's post.
seriously consider closing your entries early
and establish a running order.Might be hard at first to 
adjust but you will ease tensions and probably gain more entrants


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

golfandhunter said:


> I know the captain, and also know how he conducts
> him self at tests, trials and training. He volunteers alot
> of his time to 2 clubs and volunteers at events that he runs
> both HRC and AKC. I am posting for two reasons.
> ...


I don't think closing entries and establishing a running order will be the complete answer. People need to understand and relax sometimes at these events.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Jeff Huntington said:


> can't believe I read the whole thing...idiot
> 
> I have always thought that if I was dog 24 out of 27 (even though HRC doesn't necessarily follow running order) I would expect to probably run close to last.
> 
> ...


I can't believe I read the whole thing either and I started the thread. Sorry

I guess Kim hasn't "Put in the good word" for me with you folks in OK.;-)

I normally run three dogs and have a few friends in tow when I go to a test, so I'm not usually a one dog guy. Thanks for the offer, but I believe I've attended my last HRC test.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

captainjack said:


> I did not complain. Re-read post #1. I simply stated my experience (not naming a specific club or date) and ask if others see the same thing. There can be no discussion about a workable solution when you and others like Kim immediately get defensive and attack a person for simply asking a question. Again. Re-read post #1.
> 
> With that said, no one is perfect, but in everything I do, I am always interested in finding ways to improve. You appear to think that Kim's way is the best way and no one could ever improve upon it. And I'm fine with that.
> 
> ...


First of all Glen, I called it the Sh$t list as a joke but if you are going to quote me then quote all of it if you were listening. I continued to say "we have to get to handlers in that have multiple dogs in other flights so enjoy the other dogs." "I will let you know in plenty of time to get your dog out to air and once you geet him out you will run in 3 to 4 dogs." I do this so you won't have too get your dog out and then be bumped if another handler shows up with multiple dogs that has to go to another series too.

I see that you are from Ga., which is in the eastern time zone and we are in the central time zone. Since we were finished before 12:00, you wee referencing your time zone rather than ours. You could not have run after 12:00 since we were finished before then.

Anytime I marshal, my dogs run last as long as there are dogs there to be run and there is at least 1 dog to put in between. So actually they don't even make my sh$t list at all. 

Again my priorities are to get those handlers that have to run other stakes don as soon as possible. Always have a dog to the line when the judges are ready if there is a dog to be run. Give thehandlers the time they need to air their dog and to opportunity to come to the line as relaxed as possiblel. Do everything not to bump them once they have gotten their dog out. Meet and form a friendship with the handlers whether I can remember their names or not.

Obviously I failed miserably at this test. I did have to leave in the middle to help those at started even though I had no dog there. 

I do have one question though. At the last test you helped marshal, When did you run your dog? Was it at the beginning, in the middle or at the last. I am curious since I always run mine last if i marshal.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I will say if only one handler left unhappy we did a good job. Ken we will never be full at music City because I'll keep adding flights so everyone gets a chance to run. Sorry Glenn hope you enjoy running other test.q


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

caryalsobrook said:


> ...
> I do have one question though. At the last test you helped marshal, When did you run your dog? Was it at the beginning, in the middle or at the last. I am curious since I always run mine last if i marshal.


..........Last..........


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> I will say if only one handler left unhappy we did a good job. Ken we will never be full at music City because I'll keep adding flights so everyone gets a chance to run. Sorry Glenn hope you enjoy running other test.q


Kim, I've always enjoyed coming to Music City. I've run several tests there with Ranger, who you are familiar with, and then brought my pups up for started and then ran their first finished tests at MCHRC. But... and there is always a but when a post starts off this way.

If you think that I am the only handler that left unhappy (not because of pass/fail) with your test you are kidding yourself. 

Maybe you have intimidated others from posting to this thread because of you threat to me to "put in the good word" with other HRC clubs.


I'm not saying that the vast majority of folks didn't leave happy with the test and I'm not saying you didn't do a good job. I'm just saying that there may be room for improvement and, if running in HRC as a single dog handler means that you are treated as a second class citizen, its not for me.


I will end my comments here. If anyone wants has "one question" for me then send me a PM and I will give you an answer. Nothing else here could be of any benefit for the RTF.


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## Marsh Mule (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm yet to see how closing walkups would have alleviated this situation unless Glen was a walkup. I think the real issue is running order, which does not always correlate with the number of entries and even less with when the handler entered. 

As far as walkups, Ken makes some good points. I know as HS I could live without them. At the same time I think one of the more frustrating things about running AKC is that especially in the Master you get one shot a weekend. With HRC I know if I am getting the option to run 2 tests in one weekend at the same level. With the amount of travel we do to play the games it's nice to get a little more bang for my gas dollar.

As far as walkups, let's face it, most of the walkups for HRC are in started or seasoned. I think if you look across the country, especially at the smaller clubs that we are not seeing full flights in either series. My thinking is I already paid for judges, birdboys, lunch, found a site(s) etc for these series. If I can get 5 started walkups I just paid for a judges weekend expenses.

Same thing with Seasoned. Having 8 registered and 4 walkups is going to be another rebird and $200. 

In finished, we open one flight at a time, when we have a filled A flight I need at least 15 paid or promised entries to open the second flight. Again, it might be another rebird and we may buy a few just in case ducks but a hunt test is a pretty good place to sell extra ducks if you don't use them. 

I guess to me it is a little more work, but if you make one handler feel accommodated and enjoy the weekend then it's all worth it.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

So with one bad experience you want to put our club down. 
Glenn I don't think I could intimidate anyone. How would you fix our problem with marshalls and running order.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

As an HRC club president, I feel like I need to apologize to everyone who has slogged through this, and it wasn't even our test! This stuff is supposed to FUN! 

I tell our marshalls to stagger the multi dog handlers with a spot between each, and put the single dogs in between them, to give the multi dog handlers more time to get to/from the truck. By the time the multi-dog handlers present at the start of the test are done, the dogs from the other stakes are usually there, and the "one doggers" like me have been worked in from the start. It seems to work for us, and eliminates "bye dog" problems with the honor. YMMV.


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

I have been checking into this thread the last couple days and it continues to disturb me. I dont like talk about putting in a good word for people at other HRC clubs. I have been an HRC President for 4 years and a HT chairman for 5 tests. I instruct my marshalls that in Started and Seasoned that handlers that have dogs in mulitple stakes should be run first if at all possible or fit in dogs when the mulitple dog handlers come to the stake. I am sorry that this situation happened to you. I consider it my job to make all handlers feel welcome and appreciated. 

As far as closing entries early, I have thought about it long and hard and I have come up with an compromise solution. I want to close finished dogs a week early but I will not close Seasoned or Started dogs early. They are the future of our sport and want to give them opportunity to be able to enter. 

HRC is about making people feel like family and appreciated. I think sometimes we lose our way and forget it is the handler that makes our clubs and not the other way around. Both pro and owner handler are equally important. 

Every club needs to remember that they are not the only game in town and handlers have choices on where to spend their hunt test dollar. Dont burn bridges.


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## Marsh Mule (Oct 16, 2009)

Interesting idea Bud. And I totally agree with your other points. 

As we always have to deal with the one offs, I'm not sure I could pass up a Finished entry if I have spots open. I totally agree with being accommodating to started and Seasoned, I'm just not sure we want to limit it to those flights. We have kicked around the idea of making started free just to increase the numbers at that series. As treasurer I have a slight issue with it, but given the low numbers lately, it might be worth foregoing.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Twice, I have sat with judges for 4 hours waiting on handlers. Both times it was at an AKC event. Once as a marshall. It was stressfull for the workers, the handlers waiting on ribbons, the judges and me. I was repeatedly told they would send the handler over. Turns out the other marshall did not put the multi-stake handlers first and the handler we waited on ran near the bottom of the order. No one was bumped. As a marshall, I will not be responsible for such a situation.

HRC is not a perfect. Marshalls are not perfect. If no judge is waiting on dogs to finish a series and the test is finished at 5:00, I will continue to call that a sucessfull day.

Mark Land


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Usually the problem with waiting on dogs from other flights is not the marshalls. It's usually the handlers that should know better. As HT Secretary, I usually have a list for people with more than 4 dogs. If they are going to multiple flights, I map out their day for them. i.e. go to started, run in the 1st 3 dogs, go to seasoned run as soon as possible, go to finished and get in line as early as you can, check back with started and seasoned if you have a long wait, if you don't one of the hunt test committee members will be a visiting. Each marshall is also aware to work them in.


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## Steve Hamel (Mar 1, 2004)

I was a HRC HT Sec for many years with YWHRC. I'll offer a few thoughts.

By regulation , HRC Premiums must contain the information about when Advanced Entries Close, so there is a closing date to be listed in the Catalog. That does not preclude walkins. As HT Sec, I would generate a Running Order off of the Advanced Entries as of the closing date listed on our catalog. That way, we generated both the catalog and a running order for anyone entered as of the closing date, for all levels. 

Walk ins were added to the end of the running order in the order they were received. If it was before the day of the test I always tried to respond by email as to their order. If it was at the test, I'd hand them a slip of paper saying they were number whatever, and have them deliver that to the marshals, who would add them to the end of the existing running order.

As for other venues and pros or amateurs with multiple dogs. Running orders for whatever venue are not set in stone. I ran my first Derby with my current young dog this past weekend. The AKC Field Trial ran exactly like any other venue I've run at for the last 15 years. Pros and a few people with multiple dogs, running in multiple stakes were squeezed in by the marshals whenever they could to facilitate a clean running test/trial. The only real difference between HRC and AKC regarding generating a " running order " is the walk ins. It can still be done though.

Peace,

Steve


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Kim and Raina - I would love to join you for Mother's Day but it would only be as a spectator and not a Judge. Age and my back has left me no choice in the matter, much to my sorrow. I do love the dogs, HRC and the people. I shared the week end with so many of the people I love at Central LA this past week end and I am still trying to recover. Most of the aches and pains will heal in another day or so. I also had the great pleasure of watching our Grand-dogs and Great grand-dogs show their stuff. Thanks to Mandy and Bill Autrey.

So Kim, if the body will allow, I will give your invitation some serious thought. Thank you. If I come, I will help you Marshall since I am SO GOOD. Hugs to ALL from the big "B", implied or for real.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

captainjack said:


> I can't believe I read the whole thing either and I started the thread. Sorry
> 
> I guess Kim hasn't "Put in the good word" for me with you folks in OK.;-)
> 
> I normally run three dogs and have a few friends in tow when I go to a test, so I'm not usually a one dog guy. Thanks for the offer, but I believe I've attended my last HRC test.


I'm sorry Glen, but if you let this stop you from running any other HRC event then you are lowering yourself. Ask your dogs if they want to pick up some chickens and I bet they say yes.

We all can learn from this type of situation. Good Luck in future.

Jeff


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## clipper (May 11, 2003)

I do understand this guys' problem. I have run and judged hunt tests and field trials for some time. One time and only one time I had the same thing happen to me and it was in a field trial in a qual. I kept getting pushed down and down until I ran last. As with this guy I was there early. I found it hard to believe that everybody in that trial but me had multiple stakes and dogs. 
I am also president of a club and know the importance of keeping the whole test running smoothly and getting folks from one stake to the other. I think we all realize that. When one of those big 12-hole trucks pulls up at the stake we're at, we know we are going to have to make some allowances. Just the way it is.
Captainjack, take a deep breath and relax. As I said, it happened to me once, but has not since and that was years and many tests ago.
Dogs, handlers, judges, marshalls, hunt test secretaries, bird boys, and even folks just watching all make mistakes.... when you look at all the volunteers that come together once or twice a year, it's a wonder things go as smooth as they do.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> gosh that is a bummer Kim.
> 
> have you all considered...?
> Have a hard close and random draw.
> ...


I agree with Ken. Our club runs both HRC and AKC tests and the walk up entries/no hard close is a pain in the rear in my opinion for all the reasons you mentioned.

And I will never understand the "reasoning" Kim states that "I'll keep adding flights so everyone can run". 

That happens in AKC too. Everybody that wants to enter their dog(s) and run the test is welcomed with open arms. They just have to enter by the closing date. Which is posted on entry express at least 2 months in advance of the closing, more in most cases. 

And anything less than 100 entries is a small test in AKC. So I don't see that having a hard close limits entries. People just plan ahead.

IMO, there is NO good reason for day of entries other than it's somehow become HRC tradition. I haven't been involved with HRC long enough to know how or why exactly.

To each their own I suppose.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't have a lot of knowledge on either side, but it does seem like it would be hard/less time efficient to have a random draw with a firm running order. How do guys with entires into multiple stakes not mess up the order from one stake to another?? A "run 'em when they get there" with an "every other one, single dog guy" has got to be faster. Its the number of dogs and not the number of guys anyway...They are all technically single entries. And from my limited expirence(I have run both and will continue to), the HRC tests are usually over sooner in the evening than the AKC tests, be it not much sooner. Its kinda nice to have different formats, otherwise there wouldnt be alot of difference in the two, short of choke leads and flat collars...

Kim, you can put me on the volunteer list...I have enjoyed all my trips to Pooles Knob hunts tests/trials, AKC and UKC alike.

That was about as wishy-washy as you can get huh??:mrgreen:


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Hey Kim, 
invite me back to judge again and we will be sure to have another set up where the handler wades out 30 yards into the water to begin the test. Willow blind, decoys, mojos, the whole 9 yards. We will see who wants to go first then, won't we?
20 yards for you so the water won't be over your head.
MP


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

When I marshalled for the first time, I asked the HT chairman why he didn't tell me all that I needed to do. He said if we told you, you'd never do it. I have marshalled quite a bit since then but only one day of the weekend test. It is hard juggling all the handlers and try to get them to the line. I have only once intentionally put someone last. That was because he was rude to me and a first class jerk. I have met some really nice people/handlers while marshalling. I generally do like one of the poster above said, put single dog handlers (generallly two) in between each with mulitple dogs. This gives the pros time to get back to put their dog up, get a new dog out, a quick air then to the line. Generally I know the people with multiple dogs and I pencil then in with two blanks between each dog, then I ask who wants to run when.
Marshalling is hard as any job is when you deal with the public. I generally tell everyone about my one incident of putting a guy last. Everyone seems to be more understanding then.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

When I first read this last night my thought was it would be unusual that you could be there all that time and they would not have worked you in, but I guess I could see it happening if all the big trucks were there as well at the start and had to get going. Still, I would hope that a marshal would take pity and work him in.

After reading all the responses from the club members, they are so defensive it makes me think there is some home cooking going on. I've seen that happen--some events are just not as good venues if you are not a member--no big deal, if that is how they want to run things. However, threatening to put the word out to other clubs about some guy who was not pleased with how they run things is really a terrible thing to do, IMO.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

If you are a > 5 dog handler in Multi flights in HRC you do not have time to stand around and BS, run your dogs and move to the next stake. The HT Sec. should tell you in the morning when you check in where they want you to go. You go to that stake and run your dogs and move on. I have seen handlers with Multi dogs in all three HRC flights stand around an BS for 20+ minutes after being told they were being waited on at another stake. They didn't seem to care. As been said before handlers with multi dogs have to work with the marshalls in the flights they are running. If you have a finished land flight with an honor in the morning and <20 dogs in that flight you will probaly be told to go to finish first and more then likley you will be the first dog to run and after that be ever 3 or 4 dog. After your last dog in that flight "Move ON".Now if you just have one or two dogs in started you will probably be told to go to started first depending on the number of dogs in the started flight. Putting single dog handlers at the end is not the way to do it. Mix them in between the Multi dog. 
I have been the single dog handler and I have also been multi dog/multi flight handler.


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## orangelanyards (May 29, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Well Kim, maybe you don't know what a PM is. It stands for private message and means that it is private and not on a public forum. I have no problem calling you out in a private message. But note that I did not call you out or complain about Music City in any way on a public forum. You did that.
> 
> Edit: *BTW the part I bolded appears to be a threat of some sort. I wonder if UKC/HRC would agree*?


BBBBWWWWWAAAHHHHHAAAAHHHAAAA!!!!!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> I'm a nice guy and most on here will vouch for me, but its people like you that make our job of putting on a test hard. I'm going to post your PM since it was addressed to me and you can call us out any time because we try our best to put on the best test possible. Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself but I'll put in a good word for you at other HRC test. Maybe you need to run FT's


At what point did this become a threat since I'm being bashed for saying it. Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself but I'll put in a good word for you at other HRC test. How is this being interpreted as a threat. Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself....... Thats not a threat... I'll put in a good word for you at other HRC test...... Is this a threat, what can I say at other HRC hunt test that could be a threat to him. Make sure his dog runs first because he will complain on a public forum. Maybe that's the threat or make sure this guys is happy when he runs your test because he will complain about everything. Please let me know what is threating about this statement so I can apologize for making it. The most that it could be interpeted is me being a smart butt.......

No one even noticed the thread that I apologized to Glen because I was tired after the hunt test and after seeing the post and PM it hit me the wrong way.


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

This is just another "picking fly shi* out of pepper" discussion. I was always taught if you keep getting pushed down, STAND UP!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

> And I will never understand the "reasoning" Kim states that "I'll keep adding flights so everyone can run".


Rick, I feel if someone wants to run a hunt test and can't get in because its closed or full then they will find something else to do that weekend. If this happens a couple of years in a roll then they no longer will try to run your test. That is my thought process whether its right or wrong I want everyone to have an opportunity to play our game. We have the grounds, birds boys but suffer sometimes with help. I've ask my handlers would they rather us make the test smaller so we have plenty of help or keep getting judges so they can run. So far no one has said make it smaller............


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Twice, I have sat with judges for 4 hours waiting on handlers. Both times it was at an AKC event. Once as a marshall. It was stressfull for the workers, the handlers waiting on ribbons, the judges and me. I was repeatedly told they would send the handler over. Turns out the other marshall did not put the multi-stake handlers first and the handler we waited on ran near the bottom of the order. No one was bumped. As a marshall, I will not be responsible for such a situation.
> 
> HRC is not a perfect. Marshalls are not perfect. If no judge is waiting on dogs to finish a series and the test is finished at 5:00, I will continue to call that a sucessfull day.
> 
> Mark Land


If that handler was put at the bottom then he/she should have went to the other stake that they were running and ran it. There is no excuse to have to wait for hours for a handler to show up. It is called courtesy


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Rick, I feel if someone wants to run a hunt test and can't get in because its closed or full then they will find something else to do that weekend. If this happens a couple of years in a roll then they no longer will try to run your test. That is my thought process whether its right or wrong I want everyone to have an opportunity to play our game. We have the grounds, birds boys but suffer sometimes with help. I've ask my handlers would they rather us make the test smaller so we have plenty of help or keep getting judges so they can run. So far no one has said make it smaller............


It sounds like flights were added but you did not have the help to work them correctly. If so why add flights if you don't have the help?

If they get shut out a couple of years in a row then they should try to enter earlier next time.....


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

captainjack said:


> This had been my experience also until this test.
> 
> This was the first test where I have been told as a handler of a single dog, I must run after all of the multiple dog handlers have finished running.


I have only run a few Finished tests but I don't think I would appreciate waiting until all the multiple dog handlers have finished running and then I get to run?. If there is any holdup waiting I have seen another handler slotted in to keep things running smooth!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Bill we had 3 marshals at each finished flight and 3 at the Seasoned flight. The problem was started, the club members that run started also ran other stakes. We had enough people to put on a large test, but we didn't have a head marshal to make sure all of the flights were running smooth. That was partly my fault because of my business, things got very busy with a new product that I'm selling. I didn't have time to do everything that I usually do before our hunt test. Both of our head marshals ended up not being able to make the test because of their jobs. Our test ran very smooth and we were done early each day. I'm proud of our club and club members that worked our test. I'm pretty sure the first 3 or 4 finished spots were open to run because our multi stake handlers were running started and seasoned.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Rick_C said:


> I agree with Ken. Our club runs both HRC and AKC tests and the walk up entries/no hard close is a pain in the rear in my opinion for all the reasons you mentioned.
> 
> And I will never understand the "reasoning" Kim states that "I'll keep adding flights so everyone can run". . . . . .
> 
> ...


I think,
and I obviously do not know for sure. Bill and Cleo are about the longest time, there at the beginning, folk I know of. That participate on RTF And GDGNYC as well I think. Did I get your rtf handle right? Anyway, I think. Because of the history I have been taught and know from my own club and it's NAHRA history. And the brief collaboration with AKC and bickering and stuff and others going to the existing UKC all at the same time, with that first, chiseled in stone from above, NAHRA rule book and idea of a test against a written standard that the average American hunter could run a dog in as opposed to the alleged elite who competed in field trials. Yet Ned Spear put pen to paper and incorporated NAHRA in Vermont, at the after trial party of our clubs field trial in '82 was it? first tests run is 83? Basically the BIRTH of the hunt test movement.......
But again I digress, and branch off, I apologize.... Hey you should talk to me in person 'cause while I can type fast I can talk much faster. ANYWAY.
I think ( didn't I type that already?) that in a conscious attempt to be different from the evil field trial-ers those who broke away and formed the hrc wing of the original hunt test movement those/your founding fathers made clear the enter day of test, The no set running order, the no call backs, the no guns out in the field, the no white coats ever unless it happens to be a snow goose hunt, and the line dance. Not to better evaluate dogs. But I feel in an honest attempt to both make the average duck hunter feel welcome. AND to be markedly different than field trials. I feel NAHRA, and then AKC took the more middle ground, or I like to think my game (NAHRA) has the best of both worlds. But this thread is not about my feelings. 
This is what I think the "WHY" is Rick. Would love some "Way Backers" to tell me if I am right or wrong! Cleo? Bill?
　
.


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## Rhenee Fadling (May 23, 2008)

Marshalling is a job EVERYONE should have to do at one time or another - kind of like being a waiter or waitress, you never truly know what is like until you do it! Got an issue, think you were treated unfairly, I say jump in and get a feel for what being a marshall is like.

Riana Anderson, Fire House Labs, thank you for your kind words about our Elkhorn Valley HRC. I'm one of the few, and the proud members!


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I have only run a few Finished tests but I don't think I would appreciate waiting until all the multiple dog handlers have finished running and then I get to run?. If there is any holdup waiting I have seen another handler slotted in to keep things running smooth!


He was never told that. Nor were the dogs run in such a manner. The statement is false.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

someone is always first, and someone is always last. the rest run somewhere in between. 

this is a constant, regardless of venue. i'm sorry, but i just don't see this as an issue. it is a very rare FT or HT when every dog runs in order. i say this with over 20 years in the games.-Paul


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

I ran in Finished A at Music City and was dog #2, on land and water, each day. My buddy asked for, and got, slot #4 both days. I didn't hear anyone complaining because they didn't get to run when they wanted. Music City always puts on a good test. I've been making the 9 hour drive for about 4 years to run there, so they must be doing things right.
Professor


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

This is perhaps the only time I have ever rated a thread on RTF. That this particular thread was 5 star offended my sensibilities. Now that I rated it a 1 star I am happy to see the rating drop.

All venues have problems with marshalling and running order. In my experience HRC is no better or worse.
Mark Land


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I said I was done commenting on this thread and I won't really comment or reply to any particular post. It was never my intent to identify a particlular club, but rather to discuss how HRC running order was handled at other places. 

I was happy to see some posts from HRC HT secretaries and I think a couple of presidents or past presidents about how they do things a little differently than the club where I ran.

I hope powers that be in HRC at the club level and higher might think about trying some of the things that have been suggested by their fellow HRCers.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks David most were happy with the way the weekend went. Sorry some left unhappy but we can't do everything right. In our stake the Pro's were running the lower stakes so we got to run first and the Pros ran last. I'm not sure what happened in this Flight because most of the single handlers got to run the first 3 to 5 dogs. Maybe no one wanted to go that early. Again Glenn all I can do is apologize that you didn't enjoy our test and hopefully your experience at other HRC events will be better. Our club tries to do the best job we can but sometimes we make mistakes. 

Also Cary again thanks for helping out, I know you don't have to volunteer your time and sometimes the stress of the job can get to you but please don't let this small problem cause you bad feelings toward Marshalling.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

My reply is to the SLIM Ken. _ guess I do qualify as an "old Timer", but not just with HRC. Cleo and I were members and judges in NAHRA, having put on the preliminary hunt in Camden, AL for the Great Southern Retriever Club that was actually based in Covington, GA and were active members for several years before discovering HRC closer to us. We also attended a "judging seminar" in Richmond, VA spending the night with Jack and Diana before hand. Dick Wolters put on a LONG tyrade/on the evil AKC taking poor NAHRA folks "to the woodshed", but you have probably heard him do that. Ned had a small part in it and judging, if I recall was not on the program.

HRC has always appealed to us because the members make the rules, change them when needed and run dogs for the fun of it. Clubs are given a great deal of lee way in how they put on the hunts as long as they follow the general guidlines. Changes to these guidlines and rules are generally made at the National meeting by the presidents of each club or their proxy voting on the rules and serving as the board of directors.

If a club wishes to put on a hunt it should at least have a minimum of a Started, a Seasoned and a Finished test. They may have as many flights in any catagory as they choose as long as they have the judges and support people required to put on the test. I was not at the test in question, so I will not second guess anything that went on, but I think that an awful lot of time has been taken by people that were not there on this subject.

I hope this answers your question, Ken, whatever it was. I never completely figured out what you were asking, but since you addressed Cleo and myself, I got elected to answer. You don't write any clearer than I do, but you can damn sure make some good syrup! Cleo is a better cook though, Love to a Yankee, Bill_


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Rick_C said:


> IMO, there is NO good reason for day of entries other than it's somehow become HRC tradition. I haven't been involved with HRC long enough to know how or why exactly.
> 
> To each their own I suppose.


Thank You Bill,
this quote was what I was typing about


.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Ken, some handlers are just lazy and don't want to fill out all the information, some of the Pros haven't received the entry fees sooner from the owners but then there are others who don't know until the last minute that they can fit one or both days in their schedule. It does cause some problems with ducks and helpers and big headaches for the HT secretary but we just want to give everyone the opportunity to have FUN FUN FUN LOL Like family and friends who drop in, you put another 'taten in the pot and an extra plate on the table.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Ken I don't understand why anyone would get upset with walk ups. You have 24 dogs in finished and 3 walk ups, you are going to be there anyway so whats the big deal about 3 more dogs. If you have 30 started dogs and 10 walk up then you have 40 dogs instead of 30. I might be wrong but HRC lets you have 50 started dogs, 40 seasoned dogs and 30 finished dogs, if you end up a few dogs short before the test, the walk up's help you fill the empty slots. The only problem with walk up's is ducks and more work for the HS. I don't mind the work and I make sure we have extra ducks. I've own my business for 30 years and learned a long time ago that you should do everything possible for your clients. You will not make every one happy, but for the most part if you try to accommodate people they will be happy. Thats the reason when someone wants to run our test, then I'm going to work hard to get more judges so they can run.


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

geez Kim....quit pissing people off.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

I guess after I judge you running finished in 3 or 4 weeks you'll be mad at me too.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Great answer Kim - that's how a business should be run. Take care of your clients (if they will let you) and they will take care of you. Today's ME, ME, NOW NOW generation doesn't always allow that.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Cleo Watson said:


> Great answer Kim - that's how a business should be run. Take care of your clients (if they will let you) and they will take care of you. Today's ME, ME, NOW NOW generation doesn't always allow that.


Who exactly is "today's ME,ME,NOW,NOW generation"?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I can't believe all these pages over a flight of twenty some handlers and having to run at the end.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> I can't believe all these pages over a flight of twenty some handlers and having to run at the end.


I can't believe all these pages are 4 star rated. Would be 5 star but I lowered the average by rating it a 1.
Mark Land


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Me Me Now Now is the generation we live in today. Everything is at your fingertips, you want it now and you get it just because you want it and it doesn't matter about anyone else........


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Now this same handler is PMing our Marshall that gave up his time to volunteer and calling him slow or something. Man please get a life and direct your anger toward me instead of an elder gentleman that helps out the best he can. I don't need to loose any more volunteers that help at our test.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

mngundog said:


> Who exactly is "today's ME,ME,NOW,NOW generation"?


If you haven't run into them then you are leading a very sheltered life. They are the ones who have to be first and they want everything NOW.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Cleo Watson said:


> If you haven't run into them then you are leading a very sheltered life. They are the ones who have to be first and they want everything NOW.


I don't think I lived a sheltered life, I have heard comments like that referred to both an age group and a time frame, didn't know which one your talking about.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

mngundog said:


> I don't think I lived a sheltered life, I have heard comments like that referred to both an age group and a time frame, didn't know which one your talking about.


There is no age or time frame in the ME or NOW generation. Any self centered person of any age can be one or both. Just try to give the other person the benefit of any doubt and be courteous and kind. Sometimes those in the above mention catagories just want to please themselves and to 'heck' with anyone else. I'm sure you have seen them and more than likely have had to deal with them. It sure takes the fun out of what one is doing.


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## Demone (Mar 16, 2009)

Kim:
I thought the test went great. Well organized and flowed smoothly, especially for a big test. Music City seems to always have a good hunt. Grounds are really nice. The ROTC bird boys/gals did a good job. I thought the marshals did a fine job as well. I actually enjoy having to wait sometimes. I get to watch some nice dog work and develop a little strategy for some areas of the test. If the dog needs to air multiple times, so be it. Plenty of places to drive around and let them run off some energy. Hopefully need to stay for the second series anyway. BTW, I didn't get a ribbon, but learned a lot and saw some nice dogs. I volunteer for our local HRC tests and serve on the hunt test committee. I know how hard you work and appreciate it.
See you in finished at Old Hatchie. 
Demone


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## D Beard (Jan 3, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> I guess after I judge you running finished in 3 or 4 weeks you'll be mad at me too.



the beatings will commence if you step foot on our KY Bluegrass with any orange on!


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Derek, I now wear UT orange camo and the ducks calls I hand out for the handlers to use plays Rocky Top so I don't have a clue what you are talking about....

Thanks Demone we try to make our test a great experience. My club and I will always be dedicated to HRC and try to enjoy each weekend we put on a test.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

kimsmith said:


> Now this same handler is PMing our Marshall that gave up his time to volunteer and calling him slow or something. Man please get a life and direct your anger toward me instead of an elder gentleman that helps out the best he can. I don't need to loose any more volunteers that help at our test.


If this is true, it's deplorable. :-x


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

Bill Davis said:


> It sounds like flights were added but you did not have the help to work them correctly. If so why add flights if you don't have the help?
> 
> If they get shut out a couple of years in a row then they should try to enter earlier next time.....


Bill makes a very good point!!! Based on when the OP entered, he would not have even been there if the Secretary had not opened the 4th flight. No good deed goes unpunished.


member who ran 6 dogs in this test (last or near last) in three different flights because I was marshaling, regards


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Wow what a bunch of pissing and moaning. After a lifetime of running dog events 25+ years, my advice is quit playing dog games. Seriously. Buy a cat. 

I've ran herding, NSTRA, AKC, HRC, Gun Dog, SRS Dock Dog what seems like a million times. I don't think I've ever ran perfectly in order in any of them. AKC FT are probably the strictest to a running order. The OP sounds like a noob to the game and once he gets more than a dog or two under his belt he will learn that the real bitching in this game is about the lousy clowns with clipboards scribbling comics all day. This whining about the marshall is just noob behavior that will go away when he grows up....

/Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> Now this same handler is PMing our Marshall that gave up his time to volunteer and calling him slow or something. Man please get a life and direct your anger toward me instead of an elder gentleman that helps out the best he can. I don't need to loose any more volunteers that help at our test.


This is the PM I sent. It was in reply to a PM from said Marshall telling me that it was my fault that I gave the marshall my name before the test dog ran, but didn't get called to run until the end and further telling me to apologize to Kim for my having written that Kim said single dog handlers go last rather than what he actually said which was multiple dog handlers go first. I had already edited my post to reflect the correction...



captainjack said:


> Cary, are you slow or something? I corrected my quote of Kim in one of my posts when either you or he mentioned it. And explain to me how fault can lie with a handler who gives the marshall his dog number while the test dog is getting ready to run, and then said handler checks in to see where he stands, and then isn't called to run until a couple of dogs before the end and then only because a club member that I know said something to the marshall about getting me in? Was it my fault that I didn't lie to the marshall and tell you I had to be somewhere else?
> 
> Yours and Kim's comments speak for themselves. RTF readers can judge for themselves whether they approve of or agree with the tone and content of what you both have written. They can do the same for what I have written.
> 
> Remember one thing, I posted a general question not mentioning a club or date. After a very defensive post by Kim and an outright attack on a friend for his RTF comments, I sent Kim a private message letting him know the things I didn't like about the test. *It was Kim who brought this to the public forum. *


Deplorable? Whatever.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

One thing HRC does is limit the number of dogs a handler can run to 8 per hunt(test). So if a Handler has 7 dogs in Finished they could only have one in either Started or Seasoned. Also the club may lower this limit to any number they want below 8. Any handler runnin g more than 8 or the limit set by the club will lose all the Championship points for all the dogs entered that day. 
Not sure yet if this helps things run smoother but would think it should. I am a complete newbie to HRC though and have never seen or run a test...yet...


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

duckdawg27 said:


> No good deed goes unpunished.
> 
> 
> member who ran 6 dogs in this test (last or near last) in three different flights because I was marshaling, regards


CLEARLY, you were part of the PROBLEM, young padiwan! You must learn to trust the force....;-)


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I have found that starting a communication to another by insulting their intelligence never works well...

It may work fine for some other people. This is just a personal observation.


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## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

GulfCoast said:


> CLEARLY, you were part of the PROBLEM, young padiwan! You must learn to trust the force....;-)


Yes Yoda...I was part of the problem....as usual...when ever there is trouble just look for my truck 
Hope to see ya this fall


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

Imagine what it will be like if the proposed rule change going from max of 8 to max of 12.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

wendelb68 said:


> Imagine what it will be like if the proposed rule change going from max of 8 to max of 12.


 
The trick is to always bring more than one dog...you have multiple dogs and get multiple handler treatment


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

wendelb68 said:


> Imagine what it will be like if the proposed rule change going from max of 8 to max of 12.


 Have a pro in the area that has run like 20 in an AKC test...a lot of waiting in some stakes...


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

I do not believe that the proposed rule change will pass. Personally I would vote against it.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

captainjack said:


> This is the PM I sent. It was in reply to a PM from said Marshall telling me that it was my fault that I gave the marshall my name before the test dog ran, but didn't get called to run until the end and further telling me to apologize to Kim for my having written that Kim said single dog handlers go last rather than what he actually said which was multiple dog handlers go first. I had already edited my post to reflect the correction...
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable? Whatever.


I try to be extremely careful not to misquote someone and if perchance I do then I will certainly apologize. Misquoting someone can reflect poorly on them and If I should do something like that I would certainly apologize not only privately but publicaly.

As to his quoting me, nowhere, ANYWHERE, have I said anythinng about the running of the test dog, or the timeing when he signed up or the timing where any handler signed up, much less saying that he was at fault in any way for the order in which the dogs were run. If he can show any post or any PM to the contrary, then I will surely apologize to him. For the record, though, that statement is false.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

After reading all 15 pages, I think I'll go shower and also wash my clothes just in case some splashed on me. HPW


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

caryalsobrook said:


> I try to be extremely careful not to misquote someone and if perchance I do then I will certainly apologize. Misquoting someone can reflect poorly on them and If I should do something like that I would certainly apologize not only privately but publicaly.
> 
> As to his quoting me, *nowhere, ANYWHERE, have I said anythinng about *the running of the test dog, or the timeing when he signed up or the timing where any handler signed up, *much less saying that he was at fault in any way for the order in which the dogs were run. **If he can show any post or any PM to the contrary, then I will surely apologize to him.* For the record, though, that statement is false.


Here is your PM...


caryalsobrook said:


> I am truly sorry that your experience at the Hunt was bad. I will also say that Kim does fly off the handle and say some things that I would not. I so wish you had stayed and brought this up with me and maybe I could have shown you that our intentions were in the right place.
> 
> I have always marshaled the whole test to the end and never left before, but I had to make the choice of leaving Started without any help or leave in the middle of the Finished Test, neither didI want to do. Had I not left, I think you would have seen a different picture than you did.
> 
> ...


Was there a bet involved? You can pay me later I guess. Oh yea, just an apology. Well no apology is necessary. Like I said before, Your words speak for themselves. 

As far as fault with the way things turned out, you were not at fault at all.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

kimsmith said:


> Now this same handler is PMing our Marshall that gave up his time to volunteer and calling him slow or something. Man please get a life and direct your anger toward me instead of an elder gentleman that helps out the best he can. I don't need to loose any more volunteers that help at our test.


i was only at your test 1 time and i thought you guys put on a well run test even under flooded conditions.i guess my point is if you do your best thats all that can be expected. i have never seen anyone get up set over running order someone has to go first some one has to go last


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Here is your PM...
> 
> 
> Was there a bet involved? You can pay me later I guess. Oh yea, just an apology. Well no apology is necessary. Like I said before, Your words speak for themselves.
> ...


The fault I was refering to was your attitude twoard the test, NOT THE SEQUENCE OR THE OUTCOME NOR THE FAILURE ON MY PART TO SEE THAT EVERYBODY WAS HAPPY WITH THE TEST. I have no control of your interpretation or comprehension of what I have said. As usual you have misunderstood. If I thought it appropriate to apologize for your misunderstanding of what I wrote then I would surely apologize.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

caryalsobrook said:


> The fault I was refering to was your attitude twoard the test, NOT THE SEQUENCE OR THE OUTCOME NOR THE FAILURE ON MY PART TO SEE THAT EVERYBODY WAS HAPPY WITH THE TEST. I have no control of your interpretation or comprehension of what I have said. As usual you have misunderstood. If I thought it appropriate to apologize for your misunderstanding of what I wrote then I would surely apologize.


As I said, no need to apologize. Even though I showed you where you said exactly what I said you did.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I am with Harry on this one. Why is this thread still going? Is anyone learning anything? Is anyone just having fun?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

2tall said:


> I am with Harry on this one. Why is this thread still going? Is anyone learning anything? Is anyone just having fun?


Pipe down Carol, never has there been a more informative thread.....


/Paul


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Pipe down Carol, never has there been a more informative thread.....
> 
> 
> /Paul



Not true, although I can't find it, there was once a thread about the dog that would only run blinds when hunting, because whenever the guns were going off it was too busy lying on his back peeing all over itself to see the marks? I've tried just about every search cue I can think of, and this thread keeps getting found on all of my searches...... 

Maybe a good thread on force fetching a cat will get us all in a better mood?


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Bet the doctor's office really makes you angry....wonder if there is a playingdoctor.net website??? There could be 100's of threads on waiting there...


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

How is the grand running order determined?

Just kidding


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Duckquilizer said:


> Bet the doctor's office really makes you angry....wonder if there is a playingdoctor.net website??? There could be 100's of threads on waiting there...


No that is funny.

Although, I love getting to see the doctor last. It gives me time to sit around and watch the sick folk come and go. You meet a lot of really nice people waiting to see the doctor. My advice, take a deep breath...
woops, might not be a great idea if contageous folks are around.


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## cpmm665 (Jan 6, 2009)

Kim, 
How did you and Judy fair with the aftermath of IRENE? Hope you are both OK and safe.

To Kim and Glen,
As a NOOB, I thank both of you for advice and opportunity in my education with retriever club's and the sport. Both of you have influenced me prior to this thread.

Having been assigned Marshal Duties at Hunt Tests and Field Trials, it's a crappy job. A person once made the statement to me, "Marshaling is a cake job". It's not, whatever venue you are at. 

People have been regurgitating this raw-hide long enough. End it.

Thank you.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Someone once told me "If you aren't having fun it is your own damn fault!" Some people go to hunt tests just to run their dog, most go to HRC events for the social event. HRC seems to be a very social and fun venue, not sure why anyone would want to leave early. 'Course my first ever hunt test I called the chairperson ahead of time and asked if I could come out and work even though I did not have a dog to run.. Her reply was "WHY???" I told her that I thought I might learn something and it would be fun to watch the dogs close up. And I was right on both counts. I love being at hunt tests and field trials, I cannot imagine anyone not having fun at a huge social event with dogs and birds.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

What do you call it when a drunk just gets the snot beat out of himself and keeps getting up and getting hit again and again and has to get up just one more time? Kind of like sticking something with a stick just to see the response you get, Geeeeeze!!!!bill


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

2tall said:


> I am with Harry on this one. Why is this thread still going? Is anyone learning anything? Is anyone just having fun?


Something to read Thursday night!!!I have read the posts and the comments are interesting. Would not get all bent out of shape about some comments. Don't know what will come of the suggestions ?? I still as a single owner handler who has put in their entry ahead, I would not want to keep being shoved to the end of a Finished list so multi handlers can run. Maybe the club should look at this prior to day of the test and decide the running order? And if you sign up day of test you are running last! IMHO


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

I really tried to not post again.

I guess everyone is different. I was in a similar position two weeks ago. Checked in with Marshall. When it was time to get in a blind I kept getting passed by. Come to find out the Marshall was running too and had a replacement Marshall slip in. He/she didn't know. No biggie. I was there to enjoy the day among friends. I hadn't gave it a thought until this post. 

Seriously folks. Give major thanks to all volunteers. I've lost track of the number of people who don't return because they feel unappreciated.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Robert said:


> I really tried to not post again.
> 
> I guess everyone is different. I was in a similar position two weeks ago. Checked in with Marshall. When it was time to get in a blind I kept getting passed by. Come to find out the Marshall was running too and had a replacement Marshall slip in. He/she didn't know. No biggie. I was there to enjoy the day among friends. I hadn't gave it a thought until this post.
> 
> Seriously folks. Give major thanks to all volunteers. I've lost track of the number of people who don't return because they feel unappreciated.


I too was not going to post again. But the situation you discribe is what appears to have happened here. The original marshal went to Started. If I see a marshal change (for whatever reason) I go double check with the new marshal to check my status.

But the bottom line, IMHO, is that everyone is doing the best they can at their clubs hunt test so that we can come and run our dogs. All of us hopefully work our clubs hunt test and do the best we can so that others can come and run their dogs.

Again, Thanks to all that volunteer and work so that we can play!!! My dogs and I appreciate your efforts very much.

Janet


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

We need to start talking about seating on a duck, I believe I learned more on that thread. I guess I shouldn't have said anything but the day after a hunt I'm not in a good mood. Wore out trying to make sure everything is run right. I appreciate our Marshall's and I think they do an outstanding job. A special thanks to the judges that also give up their time to sit in a chair all day and judge our dogs.......


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

Maybe we ought to let this dog lie. All it is going to do is create more hard feelings.


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