# AKC Hunt test are they softer than NAHRA test



## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

I had a discussion with a good friend of mine who runs the NAHRA events and also does AKC Hunt test. His observation is that the AKC program of testing the hunting retriever has fallen behind NAHRA at both Senior and Master level. His opinion is there are too many AKC judges giving away titles to undeserving dogs. There are AKC judges that have many assignments because of a very high pass percentage. I was wondering how many of you feel that the hunt test program is being diminished because of this?? I have watched the local NAHRA senior and intermediate test and would have to question if in fact most SH and MH dogs could pass the NAHRA equivalent test. How many of you do both and what is your opinions??
Rookie


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

The AKC tests we ran were much harder than any nahra test. My dog is titled in both


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Hey rookie (appropriate moniker) why do you want to stir up a hornets nest here...you are dealing with two different ruling organiztions...it has very little to do with the tests and the dogs...your premise is just like saying hey FT your dog couldnt pass a SH or MH event or hey HT your dog couldnt pick up the quad in the last series of the open....you really dont want to know the answer you just want to get a rise out of everyone here and stir the pot....

as my new friend Marvin S. tells me ...."its all about the dogs"


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Let me know where those easy AKC Hunt test judges are at, because we sure haven't run up against any. Some we have run up against are ridiculously critical with very sharp pencils and set up tests that are way beyond the hunt test standard and trick tests. 

Arleen


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

It use to depend on where you lived which was more difficult....How many test does NAHRA have each year?


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I have run both and generally AKC is longer and more technical, in some aspects, but do not think NAHRA is a cake walk. At the end of the day, you have earned your ribbon.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Hi Rookie,

I ran the NAHRA game exclusively in NY State from 1987 to 1998 before moving out of state. I bet I know your buddy, and if not, I surely know some of the other folks you guys are hanging out with.

I'd say the major difference between the two has to do with the quarter to flush and the trailing, which are requirements of the NAHRA tests but not of the AKC. If you were to compare the marking series and the blinds between one organization and the other, I doubt you'd find statistically that the AKC are any "less demanding" than the NAHRA series of equivalent description.

Chris


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Looking at the requirements of both and having run both, although its been a long time since I have run NAHRA, I have to say that AKC has more and more difficult requirements. If I run Master, I have to be prepared for running quads, delayed triples and quads and such. Quads, last time I looked at the NAHRA rule book were forbidden. AKC requires 3 blinds in a Master, including a double blind, and three sets of multiple marks, at least one of which must be a triple. NAHRA Senior is two triples with a land and a water blind.

In AKC the Senior includes a land blind AND an honor as well as two doubles. No honor and no land blind in NAHRA Int. The trailing test and the quartering are not a substitute for the demanding marking tests in AKC. Nor is the use of frozen birds a good substitute for the live fliers we use in most AKC events.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Like Chris said Nahra has the quarter in Intermediate and quarter to flush in Senior trailing in both. Nahra marks in Senior are not to exceed 100 yards the AKC tests we have run have been more technical and longer than a NAHRA mark and in Intermediate there is only a water blind not to exceed 50 yrds, land not to exceed 100 water not to exceed 75 yards. AS in both it also depends on whose judging. We enjoy both.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Back when I was running NAHRA there was a standing joke about the "NAHRA yard" I don't recall if there were 4 feet in one or just 3.5. Biggest reason I went AKC was the availability of events in my area. I can run 14+ H/Ts every year and still sleep in my own bed at nite, AND they very quickly began running them on the same weekend and in the same area each year. The only NAHRA club in Md went thru three incarnations before folding, and I don't recall them ever being on the same weekend or even in the same county most of the time.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Nor is the use of frozen birds a good substitute for the live fliers we use in most AKC events.


Where in the rules does it prohibit live flyers in NAHRA? They may not be as widely used or mandated but they certainly happen and fairly often in the midwest region anyway. Financial reasons seem to be the only barrier with a lot of clubs trying to get back on their feet and bird prices being crazy right now.

But on the original subject. NAHRA has more "stuff" to train for, AKC tests are much more technical. I've only been to our clubs AKC tests but I certainly haven't seen any that were give aways or anything close.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Nothing in the rule book prohibits them, and I assume that they are used in the quarter to flush in Senior. I ran my first NAHRA test in 1988, and that was the last time I saw a flier (pigeon) other than in the QTF. I did run several where the birds were mixed species and still partly frozen. This was when entries were in the $45 range. In addition to the cost, I think getting guns who could reliably drop birds was a problem at some of the NAHRA tests I used to run.


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> Hey rookie (appropriate moniker) why do you want to stir up a hornets nest here...you are dealing with two different ruling organiztions...it has very little to do with the tests and the dogs...your premise is just like saying hey FT your dog couldnt pass a SH or MH event or hey HT your dog couldnt pick up the quad in the last series of the open....you really dont want to know the answer you just want to get a rise out of everyone here and stir the pot....
> 
> as my new friend Marvin S. tells me ...."its all about the dogs"


Well Bon your sure take a lot of mileage out of a few questions! My questions are not pot stirring questions, but ask for intelligent observations from those who run both AKC and NAHRA as there hunt test are very similar but with some differences. I'm not interested in answers from those who want to flame but those who run both venues and can make a good comparison. I personally feel the AKC hunt test have become much softer in the last few years in the North East and I have been running these events for 18 years and I'm a stand alone judge in all three levels! I do agree it is all about the "DOGS"\
Rookie


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Rookie, it really depends on who is holding the pencil. Nobody has ever accused me of putting on what I call a "pick up the chicken test" after judging 50 or so for AKC.


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Rookie, it really depends on who is holding the pencil. Nobody has ever accused me of putting on what I call a "pick up the chicken test" after judging 50 or so for AKC.


Bob 
How well I know you test are always a challenge. Well thought out with great bird placement, and Blinds with many factors!
Rookie


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

It all depends on what a person wants.....I believe there's room for both. I run NAHRA - so I can easily say What percentage of AKC guys actually hunt their dogs vs. the NAHRA guys who hunt their dogs? All this serves to do is stir the pot. Oh and by the way - its true that TRAIL and UPLAND are NAHRA's niches - but if I want my dog to run 300 yards, he'll do it also. Which is better? - Freshwater or Saltwater fishing? There's no reason for any of us to argue amongst ourselves. Truth is we love our dogs - whatever venue we run for whatever reason is fine by me. It'd be an honor to run an AKC or HRC test one day and you all are welcome to run NAHRA.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

caglatz said:


> It all depends on what a person wants.....I believe there's room for both. I run NAHRA - so I can easily say *What percentage of AKC guys actually hunt their dogs vs. the NAHRA guys who hunt their dogs? All this serves to do is stir the pot.* Oh and by the way - its true that TRAIL and UPLAND are NAHRA's niches - but if I want my dog to run 300 yards, he'll do it also. Which is better? - Freshwater or Saltwater fishing? There's no reason for any of us to argue amongst ourselves. Truth is we love our dogs - whatever venue we run for whatever reason is fine by me. It'd be an honor to run an AKC or HRC test one day and you all are welcome to run NAHRA.



well stated caglatz....and the answer is freshwater unless its surfishing off the So Calif beaches with the occasional bikini clad hottie passing by


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> well stated caglatz....and the answer is freshwater unless its surfishing off the So Calif beaches with the occasional bikini clad hottie passing by


I kind of like the bikini clads to be in the boat, while trolling for sails, marlin, dorado, wahoo, kings, etc...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rookie said:


> Well I'm not interested in answers from those who want to flame but those who run both venues and can make a good comparison.Rookie


I can do that for you. I do run both. NAHRA is my most favorite game. I have been my clubs NAHRA club rep. in the past and chaired the field tests. I have also had almost every job in an AKC hunt test except chairperson. Personal baggage out of the way first. NAHRA is the first, best and most complete test for the working retriever, in my opinion. It is what the AKC test was modeled after, after they split up. The retriever club I am a member of has been providing crates of live birds to our NAHRA judges for 25 years. On VERY RARE occasions a few out of state flatlander judges had us kill the birds in the parking lot before a series. I can count these series on one hand. With all due respect to Bob G. We forgive you as you know not what you speak of. Haven't run since '88 and possibly never ran one in Vt. Because of that "sleep in your own bed" thing you have. You will get live mallard ducks, chucker, peasants. When we use pigeons for the flush they are fly away flushes and not retrieved by your dog.
Anyway, enough of my setting record straight, non-flaming rant. Your requested comparison -
numbers, there will be fewer dogs and people at NAHRA Field tests than at AKC hunt tests.
distance, will be a scooch longer in AKC and Bob there is no ("NAHRA Yard") every miss molly mini-van has a Bushnell range finder in the purse. In all hunt test games the distance is the distance and is checked by more than a dozen participants while the test dog is running. Shirley you see these at your Maryland AKC hunts.
Camo Clothing, will be a bit more strictly enforced in NAHRA than in AKC but not as much as in HRC.
Game calls, Duck and Goose will be used more (lots more) in NAHRA than AKC. By both judges, bird boys and even participants. I have seen many a series start with the handler calling, then the bird boys calling back.
Sit to flush/Upland/Trailing, is in every NAHRA upper level test. It is not included in AKC tests.
Collars, Junior AKC dogs may have a flat buckle collar on. NAHRA started dogs run naked.
Delivery to hand, required in Junior AKC. Started NAHRA duck may be dropped on the ground in the area of the handler (I hate that BTW!!)
Cover, I see dogs running though a lot more thick stuff in NAHRA. But the AKC marks may be tighter, more technical and/or longer. Because of out distance limitations you may have to swim through a lot of salad to get your ducks in NAHRA.
Pedigree, AKC hunt titles are recorded on your AKC three generation pedigree. NAHRA ain't got no registries.
Fun, Both have lots of it, if you chose to find it. I have seen crying, wailing and the grinding of teeth at both.
Difficulty, I think the AKC hunt is more difficult. The long wait to run, the huge crowds, the long distances to line. In entry vs. qualify comparisons I crash and burn more often in AKC 
and that is all I have to say about that.
Ken Bora


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Nothing in the rule book prohibits them, and I assume that they are used in the quarter to flush in Senior. I ran my first NAHRA test in 1988, and that was the last time I saw a flier (pigeon) other than in the QTF. I did run several where the birds were mixed species and still partly frozen. This was when entries were in the $45 range. In addition to the cost, I think getting guns who could reliably drop birds was a problem at some of the NAHRA tests I used to run.



I'd like to know where this mystery club is that cant stay together and has nobody that can shoot. We have a lot of the same fun loving red necks shoot at our NAHRA field test, AKC hunt test and our Field Trial. Only event we don't use um at is the HRC. We do not seem to have a lot of missed birds.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

1) what is nahra?
2) if you think AKC test are sof come on down to Cooper Black this weekend and take a gander at master A


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> 1) what is nahra?


come over here so I can slap you 
Oddly I was typing this a week ago in a p.m. to another Florida rtf person. We(NAHRA) really need to get some active clubs in Florida. Maybe we could run our trail chasing those big lizards you all have.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I have run MANY HRC, AKC, and NAHRA hunt tests since 1988 and I'll second most everything Ken Bora wrote. 

EXCEPT: Where is "flatland"? In the MidWest NAHRA Region I'd guess about half NAHRA Senior marks have live shot flyers. (Pigeons - often used in upland - and my favorite for upland - are usually shot quite reliably.) Often it includes some of the same workers shooting them as at our local AKC licensed field trial. And: I've seen "wanton waste" of flyers at all the events except HRC where I never saw one. By this I mean a flyer that didn't add anything to the mark - just blast a bird to blast a bird... Since 1988 the introduction of wingers and various launchers - led by HRC (and NAHRA in upland) - has greatly improved marking tests.

All the events - including field trials - are good work for hunting retrievers in the off season, but the real thing starts for me this weekend.

Good hunting everyone.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Ken Bora said:


> You will get live mallard ducks, chucker, peasants. Ken Bora


 
To Paraphrase Carl Spackler: "But if I shoot all the Peasants boss, they'll lock me up and throw away the key!"



All the tests have fun for everyone, being that I hunt upland as much or more than Waterfowl, NAHRA is the best test to get my dogs ready to hunt. At least in the Midwest the NAHRA events are more social as well with the Saturday evening banquets and such. The AKC tests around here don't seem to have that, but from posts here they must do it in other areas.

I really enjoy working/watching our AKC events and will probably even start running them with my new pup. Gunning for a Field Trial is a great learning experience too no matter what venue you run.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

IowaBayDog said:


> To Paraphrase Carl Spackler: "But if I shoot all the Peasants boss, they'll lock me up and throw away the key!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I judged an AKC test last year and it was the first time I was at one that didn't have anything Saturday night. I was kind of stunned since they had a very nice clubhouse. All of them down here have a banquet, of course we call em tailgates, but they are one of the things most people look forward too.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> 1) what is nahra?
> 2) if you think AKC test are sof come on down to Cooper Black this weekend and take a gander at master A


Everyone knows that NAHRA is the North American Hot Rod Association.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Ken the mystery club began as the Dorchester Hunting Retriever Club in 1987 or thereabouts. I was a charter member. It then morphed into the Patuxent River RC after about 2 yrs, and in another year or so became the ?????RC and then went the way of the Dodo bird. I would love to know where all the equipment that belonged to the old DHRC went. When the third club folded up it meant that the nearest NAHRA clubs were somewhere around Richmond Va and the Navasink club in NJ, both a fur piece to travel, though I did get to Amelia in 92 or so to get Gunny's WR. No live birds at any of the 4 Int tests she ran, nor in any of the Started tests after the inaugural one in 88. Come to think of it we ran 3 Seniors in the 92-93 time frame and never saw a live bird at any of them either.

I personally don't have a beef with the NAHRA program, it got me started in the game, and was fun for me and my dogs. Where I think they dropped the ball though was the ever changing dates and locations thing that clubs in my region went thru. When I started this game, I worked rotating shifts and did not have more than one full weekend off monthly. The AKC clubs made it easy, they had their tests on the same weekend every year and for the most part had them in the same locations. Once I had been to the C&D Canal to run LRC or DBRC, I didn't have to worry too much about getting lost, and the dependability of the dates meant that I had plenty of warning about which weekends or parts thereof I needed to put in a slip to take off. Along with that, the lack of events in my area made making a run for a title very difficult in NAHRA, whereas with AKC, getting to enough tests in a short time frame made that run(at least for a JH or SH)much easier logistically and financially.

If more clubs that sponsored NAHRA events were as longstanding as your's, I think the program would be much better. Even at that, I don't really have the time to run another game. Between running licensed trials and AKC H/Ts, judging and live gunning, I don't have enough weekends during the season to play in another venue. I haven't even done any competetive obedience in a few years simply for lack of time.

BTW the 'NAHRA yard' is something I first heard about from Woody Thurman a bunch of years ago. I don't worry too much about distance when I'm running a dog, as I train a lot on F/T marks with all my dogs. When I'm sitting in the chair, thats another story.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> the 'NAHRA yard' is something I first heard about from Woody Thurman a bunch of years ago. I don't worry too much about distance when I'm running a dog, as I train a lot on F/T marks with all my dogs.


Squire, ol' Soupy sure looked good, especially for a 10-year-old Chessie, on that 375-yard retired last bird at LRC couple weeks ago.

BTW, apparently your backyard training ground is hosting a NAHRA test this weekend--I ain't running 'em any more (even with a Boykin) because of who *does* run them and essentially runs the show (no flyers, dogs get ribbons without getting wet, etc.) You'll fathom it.

MG


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

John Gassner said:


> Everyone knows that NAHRA is the North American Hot Rod Association.


 
That is what I though too;-)


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

THIS weekend, I'm sitting in the chair, Katy is judging her first H/T with me for Talbot.

Soupy appreciates your assessment!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

You kidding me?--I'd have gone out on all fours on Soupy's (and Katy's) behalf and picked up the bird if it meant keeping Katy in the trial long enough so you could keep feeding us the 'Bama score. Of course, K(AU)ty was clenching her teeth every time she repeated it. Good job with Cookie too--both dogs ran terrific series.

MG


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## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

bonbonjovi said:


> Hey rookie (appropriate moniker) why do you want to stir up a hornets nest here...you are dealing with two different ruling organiztions...it has very little to do with the tests and the dogs...your premise is just like saying hey FT your dog couldnt pass a SH or MH event or hey HT your dog couldnt pick up the quad in the last series of the open....you really dont want to know the answer you just want to get a rise out of everyone here and stir the pot....
> 
> as my new friend Marvin S. tells me ...."its all about the dogs"


Yeah Rookie ...relax before you get a fight started. 

In my honest opinion the difficulty of the tests has less to do with the sanctioning organization than what type of dog the judge runs..

Generally the easier judges run Goldens or Chocolates . The more difficult tests are run by judges who own dogs with superior capabilities. Like Black dogs or well bred Yellows. And normally they feed Eukanuba. 

If the test is sponsored by Pro Plan you can just about bet it will be an easier test. 


There's my two cents. I hope this helps and remember people are sensitive to different topics on here ...especially Chesapeake owners. So be careful and think before you post. 


Kevin


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Yeah, and Ohio State stinks. ;-)


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

okay - in Alaska I know for a fact that NAHRA intermediate tests can be very demanding....I have also seen very simple intermediate tests - I would say the number of 'challenging' set-ups is slightly more than what I would consider a 'normal' test, and the 'gimme tests' are fairly far and few between....You don't need distance to make a set of marks. challenging...Interestingly, up here, as the hunt test season progresses the tests _will_ get more challenging, with the thought being that by the end of the summer, dogs running in any level will be 'more ready' for the upcoming hunting season. 

This yr our last test of the season featured a guy in a lay out blind that sat up and began blowing a duck call as you walked by him to the line, and later shot a diversion bird....The field had numerous snow goose rags, speck dekes, and cranes....Senior level ran before intermediate.....the blind for the senior level was 'hot' and placed about 20 yds from the middle gun station....marks thrown around the horn l-r.....middle and right mark thrown toward each other..
Then the intermediate ran the middle and right mark....middle bird throw was thrown 'in' rather than landing in the same location as it was for the senior marks....every dog in senior and intermediate had to handle on at least one mark.....And I believe 2 or 3 of the senior level dogs were GMHR titled....

A pic of the setup....



have seen/run in line double mark in intermediate....
have been made to wait 10 seconds to release the dog after the marks were down.

Can't speak for AKC senior/master because I don't/have not run them. But I know that NAHRA tests in AK can be very challenging.

Juli


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

K.Bullock said:


> Yeah Rookie ...relax before you get a fight started.
> 
> In my honest opinion the difficulty of the tests has less to do with the sanctioning organization than what type of dog the judge runs..
> 
> ...


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Jim Drager (Jun 12, 2005)

Here is the most complete comparison of all the Hunt Test Programs that I know of. This is courtesy of Julie Cairns (Hunt Test Know How.com). Its also been published on the GRCA (yes..the fluffy website) website under the field education section. There may be slight changes.

Comparison Chart Between Names Of Titles, Test Levels And Qualifying Scores 

AKC
CKC 
UKC/HRC 
NAHRA 

Junior Hunter (JH) 
Junior Hunter (JH) 
Started Hunting Retriever (SHR) 
Started Retriever (SR) 

Junior 
Junior 
Started 
Started 

4 Q’s 
3 Q’s 
4 Q’s = 20 points 
4 Q’s = 10 points 

Senior Hunter (SH) 
Senior Hunter (SH) 
Hunting Retriever (HR) 
Working Retriever (WR) 

Senior 
Senior 
Seasoned 
Intermediate 

5 Q’s/4 with JH 
5 Q’s/4 with JH 
4 Q’s (40 pts)/3 with SHR 
4 Q’s (20 points) 

Master Hunter (MH) 
Master Hunter (MH) 
Hunting Retriever Champion (HRCH) 
Master Hunting Retriever (MHR) 

Master 
Master or Owner/Handler Master 
Finished 
Senior 

6 Q’s/5 with SH 
6 Q’s/5 with SH 
7 Q’s (100 pts, 60 from Finished)/4 with HR 
5 Q’s (100 pts total)/4 Q’s with WR 


Grand Master Hunter (GMH) 
Grand Hunting Retriever Champion (GHRCH) 
Grand Master Hunting Retriever (GMHR) 


10 Q’s over MH 
200 total pts over HRCH/ must have 2 Grand passes 
10 Q’s (200 points) over MHR 



Upland Hunter (UH) 




Upland Tests 




4 Q’s (40 points) 



ENTRY LEVEL TEST REQUIREMENTS: JUNIOR/STARTED 


Marks
Distances
Collar/leash
Other 

AKC
2 land singles 2 water singles 
100 yards maximum 
Buckle collar OK to hold or slip cord. 
Can handle on 1 mark. Retrieve to hand. 

CKC
2 land singles 2 water singles 
75 yards maximum 
Dog can be held by collar. Must be removed before sent. 
Can handle on 1 mark. Retrieve to hand. Carry gun once. 

NAHRA 
2 land singles 2 water singles 1 single judge's choice 
Land max 75 yards Water max 50 yards 
Can be held by leash, line or slipcord. No collars allowed. 
Not required to retrieve to hand. May carry shotgun. 

UKC 
2 land singles 2 water singles 
Land max 75 yards Water max 60 yards 
Dog can be held by collar, leash or line. 
Handler ﬁres gun unless dog is held at line. Retrieve to hand not required. All dead birds. 


INTERMEDIATE TEST REQUIREMENTS: SENIOR/INTERMEDIATE/SEASONED 


Tests
Distances
Steady
Honor
Diversions 
Other 

AKC




Land double Water double Land blind 

Water blind 




100 yards max 






Controlled break allowed 






Yes 






Diversion shot required. Diversion birds allowed. 




Walk-up should be included. Blinds can’t be run between marks. 
Blinds may be run as double blind.
Handler carries gun on all marking tests. 

CKC


Land double Water double 

Land blind 

Water blind Upland test 


100-125 yards max 






Controlled break allowed 






Yes 






Diversion shot should be used. 
Diversion birds allowed but only when returning from last mark. 
Diversions are a trainability situation. 
Walk-up should be included. 
Blinds can’t be run between marks. Blinds may be run as double blind. 
Handler carries gun 2-3 times. 

NAHRA 






Land double 
Water double
Water blind by itself 
Upland test by itself 
Trailing 
Land-100 yards max
Water marks-75 yards max
Water blind-50 yards max 
Controlled break allowed 






No 








Diversion shots or birds can’t be used between 1st & 2nd marks 


Walk-ups allowed. 
Handler may be required to carry shotgun. 





UKC






Land double
Water double
Land blind 
Water blind 
Tracking/ quartering 


Land marks-100 yards max
Water marks-75 yards max 
All blinds-40 yards max 
Controlled break allowed. 
Dog can be brought to line on leash. 


No 










Diversion shots must be ﬁred before blinds are run.
Diversion birds only on last bird retrieved. 


Handler ﬁres shotgun. 
Dead birds except on upland test. 








ADVANCED TEST LEVEL: MASTER/SENIOR/FINISHED 


Tests
Distances
Steadiness
Diversions
Other 

AKC
Multi land marks, multi water marks, land/water multi mark. One set of marks must be a triple. Land blind, water blind; one of which must be a double bind 
100 yards max 
Must be steady; no controlled breaks. Honor required 
Diversion shot or bird required. 
One test must include a walk-up. Handler carries gun in marking tests only. 

CKC 
Multi land marks. Multi water marks. Land blind. Water blind. Upland test 
100-125 yards max 
Must be steady; no controlled breaks. Honor required. 
Diversion shot or bird required. 
Triples are encouraged. Upland test requires a ﬂush. Handler must carry gun 

NAHRA 
Water triple. Land triple. Land blind. Water blind. Upland test with ﬂush. Trailing test. 
100 yards max 
Controlled break OK but is serious fault. Controlled break allowed on ﬂushing test. An honor may be required. 
Dry shots may be ﬁred. Diversion birds can only be thrown when dog is returning. 
Handler may be required to carry a gun. No quad marks. No simultaneous falls. Walk-ups OK. One blind must be included with marks. Both blinds may be included with marks. 

UKC 
Multiple land marks. Multiple water marks. Land blind. Water blind. Upland test is separate and must be announced. 
Land marks-150 yards max. Water marks-125 yards max. Blinds-100 yards max. 
Creeping and con*trolled breaks may be a failure. 
Diversion bird can only be thrown when dog is returning. 
Judges may order sequence in which marks are picked up. Handlers ﬁre gun on marks. 


Courtesy of hunttestknowhow.com.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Jim Drager (Jun 12, 2005)

rookie said:


> I His opinion is there are too many AKC judges giving away titles to undeserving dogs. There are AKC judges that have many assignments because of a very high pass percentage. I was wondering how many of you feel that the hunt test program is being diminished because of this??
> 
> Warren,
> 
> ...


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

A word to the wise: "Rookie" appears to be none other than Warren Price (note "signature" on posts, plus only one New York Price first initial "W" judging HT in the AKC searchable judges directory.) Warren breeds Chesapeake Bay Retrievers.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

As a minor correction to the chart, there is a 60 yard blind limit in HRC seasoned now, for what its worth.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

crackerd said:


> BTW, apparently your backyard training ground is hosting a NAHRA test this weekend--I ain't running 'em any more (even with a Boykin) because of who *does* run them and essentially runs the show (no flyers, dogs get ribbons without getting wet, etc.) You'll fathom it.
> 
> MG


 I've never been to a NAHRA test where my dog didn't get wet and I've taken two dogs through the program to MHRs. I don't know why a few folks over here have to take these pot shots at another game for our dogs that some of us obviously have a good time participating in. NAHRA has had it's rough times, but it is now back in good form and has some great pockets of strong clubs, particularly in the northeast and midwest. I happen to belong to a very active NAHRA club with enthusiastic new members and dedicated old timers.

If you haven't run a NAHRA event since 1988, maybe youi should either run a test to see how they've changed or keep your negative comments to yourself. Why insinutate some NAHRA folks made off with a defunct club's equipment? I don't know what crackerd means about not running them "because of who _*does*_ run them" because some of the finest people I know I've met at a NAHRA test. 

Seems like the best info is from those folks who run both NOW.... and I didn't hear too many bad things from them.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Mike if you read a subsequent post, I indicated that I last ran a NAHRA test in about 1993. That was about the time that the nearest NAHRA club to me packed up its tent and folded. Since that time I have been running AKC H/Ts and field trials, as well as live gunning and judging. Simply put there aren't enough weekends to run another venue, especially one which due to the dearth of clubs in the mid Atlantic means lots of mileage between events.

As far as the DHRC equipment I mentioned, I and a lot of other charter members of the club had equity both sweat and real in the purchase of the stuff that was needed to start that club. I never said nor intimated that it went into someone personal equipment locker. As far as I knew it was given to the Pax River HRC when they started up, which is fine with me as would a subsequent bequest to another club. I was simply asking where the stuff went.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

We have a Chessie bitch that my husband put through AKC's SH and MH titles. She basically doesn't care for men (sorry guys), so I have been running her for fun in the NAHRA program and just got her Intermediate title. We have had a great time. The NAHRA folks have been so nice. The scent trailing and quartering are plenty challenging for me as a handler. I like both programs and will continue to do both. It is a hobby and I am not concerned about what is easier or harder or whatever, but how much enjoyment the dog and I can get from the sport.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Mike if you read a subsequent post, I indicated that I last ran a NAHRA test in about 1993. That was about the time that the nearest NAHRA club to me packed up its tent and folded. Since that time I have been running AKC H/Ts and field trials, as well as live gunning and judging. Simply put there aren't enough weekends to run another venue, especially one which due to the dearth of clubs in the mid Atlantic means lots of mileage between events.



Bob, I have no beef with you... except that this isn't the first time that when a discussion of NAHRA comes up you drag out your experience with the organization from over 10 years past. A lot has changed in that time.

As far as not having time to check NAHRA out again, I can appreciate that as I don't have time to check out AKC. We have NAHRA tests at Northern Piedmont Retriever Club (Gettysburg Area), Navesink HRC (New Jersey), Southwest PA HRC (Grove City PA), Western New York (south of Buffalo), Leatherstocking RC (Syracuse, NY), Southern MD (this weekend at Cheltenham) and Shenandoah Valley RC (central VA) all within 1-6 hours of me.

So, while we now understand that some 10 years ago you may have had some experience with NAHRA, maybe leave it up to those with more recent familiararity to give a more up-to-date perception of the program.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Mike, in another lifetime I was going to be a history teacher, and I still am an avid amateur historian. Things that happened 10 or 20 yrs ago sometimes seem like yesterday. When I answer a question I have a habit of framing my answer based on those experineces. That first field test now 20 years back is as fresh in my mind as if it happened last week. I can still remember the taste of victory that day when we got our first (Started) ribbon. Did I mention that we ran that Feb day with 10 inches of snow on the ground a howling wind and temps below 20deg? The local AKC club called their test on account of the weather and some of their entrants came to Madison and entered the Started and Int there. 

I still believe my evaluation of which org puts on a more difficult test is valid unless the NAHRA rules have changed a lot. For example, Master calls for 3 sets of multiple marks, meaning at least a double, and no limit on the max although a quad is the most I have ever seen. NAHRA Senior 2 triples, quads forbidden by rule.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Bob, I appreciate your opinion. I've never seen an AKC test, let alone run one. But, you are basing your opinion by comparing rule books and your memory of NAHRA tests from 10 years ago. So, have at it. I'll give more credence to the word of those who are running both now.

Those of us in the game for awhile all know that what appears to be a simple triple of less than 75 yds can give experienced dogs more trouble than a quad of over 100 yards. It all depends on the setup. I guess we could also compare how many AKC dogs go out on the Quarter to Flush.... oh, that's right.... AKC doesn't have a QTF.....

I enjoy NAHRA, you like AKC. I wish you the best to you and your dogs in your dog game and hunting endeavors.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I've only ran one AKC Hunt Test (a Master stake & a Junior stake) and that was in 1990. My history was/is such that I limit what I do to what I like the best. It's a personal choice and I see no reason to attempt to get others to agree with me. Nor do I feel a need to attempt to justify my choice by creating negative notions about the other one I choose not to participate in. For those that feel a need I find that personal behavior very enlightening.

It's not really fair nor is it very accurate to compare organizations other than the quote of the rule requirements that was posted. Those things are objective. I think one can do a more accurate assessment of change if an individual organization is compared to itself. Then those of historical persuasion have a means to do some subjective reflections without attempts to discredit others.

Are AKC Hunt Tests softer than NAHRA Field Tests? Subjectively I say hardly. But a really good Master level finished hunting retriever should be able to pass both. And it also should be able to finish a Qualifying and then should sleep at the foot of the bed while it's owner dreams of things of more importance. Like getting up to go hunting. Around my place that includes being able to trail a cripple plus seek,flush & retrieve upland birds.

There's nothing wrong with being soft after all it's a matter of perspective. HPW


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

crackerd said:


> Squire, ol' Soupy sure looked good, especially for a 10-year-old Chessie, on that 375-yard retired last bird at LRC couple weeks ago.
> 
> BTW, apparently your backyard training ground is hosting a NAHRA test this weekend--I ain't running 'em any more (even with a Boykin) because of who *does* run them and essentially runs the show (no flyers, dogs get ribbons without getting wet, etc.) You'll fathom it.
> 
> MG





Mike Tome said:


> I've never been to a NAHRA test where my dog didn't get wet and I've taken two dogs through the program to MHRs. I don't know why a few folks over here have to take these pot shots at another game for our dogs that some of us obviously have a good time participating in.


It's because there are two types of people that do not know their ass from a hole in the ground. 
Those that are quiet and let the rest of us slowly figure it out for ourselves.
And those who open their mouth and let us know right away.
And MG don't think I am hiding behind a keyboard saying something I would not say right to your face. Because I will. At least Bob G and I while we discus things and sometimes do take opposite side on discussions, we have the balls to sign our names. So crackers or MG or whatever your mamma calls you. You are wrong .And I'm telling you that your wrong yet I am sure you already know it so that makes you a teller of false statements as well and my name is 
Ken Bora


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> It's because there are two types of people that do not know their ass from a hole in the ground.
> Those that are quiet and let the rest of us slowly figure it out for ourselves.
> And those who open their mouth and let us know right away.
> And MG don't think I am hiding behind a keyboard saying something I would not say right to your face. Because I will. At least Bob G and I while we discus things and sometimes do take opposite side on discussions, we have the balls to sign our names. So crackers or MG or whatever your mamma calls you. You are wrong .And I'm telling you that your wrong yet I am sure you already know it so that makes you a teller of false statements as well and my name is
> Ken Bora


Brother Kenny, you're crossing the line my friend.

Please don't make the admin admin or the moderator moderate! 

Chris


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Brother Kenny, you're crossing the line my friend.
> 
> Please don't make the admin admin or the moderator moderate!
> 
> Chris


I absolutely agree, and I did it knowingly with forethought and spell-check. I grow so weary of people defecating on my favorite game.

Ken Bora


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

Larkin said:


> A word to the wise: "Rookie" appears to be none other than Warren Price (note "signature" on posts, plus only one New York Price first initial "W" judging HT in the AKC searchable judges directory.) Warren breeds Chesapeake Bay Retrievers.


Larkin
Please you will enlighten the masses!


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> It's because there are two types of people that do not know their ass from a hole in the ground.
> Those that are quiet and let the rest of us slowly figure it out for ourselves.
> And those who open their mouth and let us know right away.
> And MG don't think I am hiding behind a keyboard saying something I would not say right to your face. Because I will. At least Bob G and I while we discus things and sometimes do take opposite side on discussions, we have the balls to sign our names. So crackers or MG or whatever your mamma calls you. You are wrong .And I'm telling you that your wrong yet I am sure you already know it so that makes you a teller of false statements as well and my name is
> Ken Bora


 Brother Ken
I asked for non inflammatory responses. I know well how hard you work for LCRC and what is your breed of dog, but please keep to the topic of how you find each of the two venues and how you feel about the challenge of both. I agree with you the NAHRA program is geared more for the man who is a hunter rather than the person who rarely hunts. 
One last thing thanks for the VT Maple S and all the help when I judged at LCRC
Rookie


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

Our club held the first NAHRA Field Test in Wisconsin. August 17 & 18, 1985, at Fort McCoy, Sparta WI. We also hosted the 1991 NAHRA Invitational at LaFarge WI. The program was well thought out and filled a nitch in the retriever program. It still may be the only event that is by the hunters and for the hunters. Very impressive to have sit to flush and trailing events, as many of our club members hunt pheasants. 

Looking at the catalog I find that only one person has continued and is still active in the retriever games. The field test secretary is still active and is still the club's field trial secretary in 2008.

Jack


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

And I believe Jack's MHR-CFC Truckee was the first to have that combination of titles...

BRC is one of the finest clubs around - even if they have gone AKC/HT & AKC/FT. ;-)


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

junbe said:


> It still may be the only event that is by the hunters and for the hunters.
> Jack


IMO - This statement hits the nail right on the head!

We are a HUNTING retriever organization, tests are set up as TRUE hunting scenario's. OK so some maybe more realistic than others, but in the end its about having a GREAT hunting dog to take to the field this fall. 

It truly is about the dogs.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rookie said:


> Brother Ken
> I asked for non inflammatory responses. I know well how hard you work for LCRC and what is your breed of dog, but please keep to the topic of how you find each of the two venues and how you feel about the challenge of both.
> Rookie


I gave you that in post #19 the rest is a bonus. I can have great, polite debates with Bob G. but that cracker just chaffed me hard. 
Speaking of Bob G. When you say you are completely unaware of any Maryland Clubs hosting NAHRA. Wasn't a close family member of yours the VP of the club hosting a field test this coming weekend? The Southern Maryland Hunting Retriever Club, ring any bells 
Full Disclosure Regards!
Ken Bora


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rookie said:


> I know well how hard you work for LCRC and what is your breed of dog.......... thanks for all the help when I judged at LCRC
> Rookie


Yea, I had to have back sugery after you and Bob T. judged together. Cutting that fricken tree from the canoe so the dogs would not get hurt going over it was the straw that broke this camels back. And after all that only one dog went over the blessed thing!!!


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Ken. WAS is the operant word, she is no longer associated with that group. Neither of us is on any mailing lists for any NAHRA club. Even if we were, we had accepted an invite to judge for Talbot's H/T this weekend back in late March.

On a more serious note, do you offer sugar free syrup for those of us with diabetes?


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## KEukaFlyer (Oct 7, 2005)

I've only run a few AKC tests so please take what I say with a grain of salt. The only ones I ran were Juniors and I felt they were much less challenging than a NAHRA started. That is why I didn't continue with the AKC. Now, I know that that is a few tests out of 100's each year! I will not make any signicant argument against AKC because of that. That's just my experience on a few tests. On the other hand, if this is what other people have noticed, then maybe there is a trend??

As far as some of this discussion: As someone pointed out earlier - maybe the distances in the rule book are different - but distance has nothing to do with difficulty. My neighbor's Labradoodle can run after a 300 yard mark in a mowed field. I have never not "gotten my dog wet" (unless he went out in the first series), and almost always there is a flyer.

The main reason I stuck with NAHRA is because I am a hunter. The tests to me seem so much more realistic. Plus, I like the people better (maybe because the majority are hunters also??) 

I have brought my dog up to a Master Hunter and will hopefully be getting a Grand Master Hunter title this year. If I had the time and resources I would definitely like to also pursue AKC but at this point it isn't a reality. I would love to really see the differences in the programs -- I would like to think my experience with AKC so far is not the norm!

Joe Meade


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Ken. WAS is the operant word, she is no longer associated with that group. Neither of us is on any mailing lists for any NAHRA club. Even if we were, we had accepted an invite to judge for Talbot's H/T this weekend back in late March.
> 
> On a more serious note, do you offer sugar free syrup for those of us with diabetes?


Bob G.
I am not trying to get you to enter dogs in or attend a NAHRA Field Test. I know that is water through the culvert. What my goal here is, is to counter any misconceptions about NAHRA. So when miss molly mini-van in Maryland reads blanket statements like if you are in Maryland you cannot run NAHRA and sleep in your own bed, incorrect.
Gunners in NAHRA Field tests cannot hit the birds, incorrect.
There are no live birds used in NAHRA, incorrect.
I wont bother with the cracker's statements, covered that already.
and sorry no I do not make any sugar free maple syrup. Maple Syrup is pure liquid sugar. I have tasted the sugar free maple grove farms stuff. it is so nasty, I feel for you. Would a huge pancake breakfast with the real stuff followed by like 3 hours of partridge and woodcock hunting to burn it off work?
And have a good time judging with your girl. There cannot be that many father/daughter judging teams out there.
And be for-warned, I am always here to counter any NAHRA untruths typed by anyone. Be they Chesapeake people or others.
Ken Bora


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Joe, you bring up an interesting point. I got into dogs because I love to hunt, but over the 20 yrs I've been running dogs, I've done a lot less hunting and a lot more training. The AKC handlers seem to be divided into three groups, the breed folks, the diehard hunters, and people like me who hunt but would rather compete with our dogs. While in the current economic climate, I may have to resume shopping with a shotgun(filling my freezer from the blind not the supermarket) I value the quality of the experience with my dogs far more than the dropping of game.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> .
> 
> On a more serious note, do you offer sugar free syrup for those of us with diabetes?


If you find good sugar free syrup, please let me know where!

Carbquick pancakes suck regards, 

Mark


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

well, i've read all of this thread and pondered whether i should join the fray. here goes nothin'....

i've played all 3 and have GMHR, MH, and HRCH degrees on my current dog, as well as an MFR from NFRA, now defunct.

ENTRY LEVEL- AKC tests generally have more difficult marks, but NAHRA tests provide an extra mark. i call this a tie. the tie-breaker is delivery to hand, if judged properly. at this level, the AKC tests provide the tougher challenge.

MID LEVEL- BOTH orgs suffer from judging inconsistency; i have had master blinds thrown at me in AKC senior tests. i can say this because i have run THE SAME blind in senior with my current dog that i ran in master with the previous one, 4 years earlier. in NAHRA tests, i have run doubles that were tough senior triples with the easy bird left out. i think that the level of difficulty are essentially the same, if judged properly. the fact that the judges have the ability to combine elements in a NAHRA test, (example: land double, dry shot on return, heel dog to a seperate line and run the trailing test, another dry shot on return, heel dog to a piece of water for the water blind) makes the dog and handler switch gears and raises the difficulty to a par with a typical AKC senior test.

top level- whoo boy- where do i start....
it's at this level that things get tough in both orgs. the AKC tests have little to do with hunting, and everything to do with training the dog to a level of work on a par with the qualifying ft stake. the distances are shorter, but all this really serves to do is to tighten up the angles between marks and blinds. handling on marks (more than 1) generally will get you dropped. i have seen dogs dropped for work on a blind that would get you called back at a qualifying ft. the question "would i like to hunt with this dog" is rarely asked and is a non-issue for many judges because they don't hunt. they may go to a preserve and shoot stocked birds or pick up at a tower shoot, but that's not hunting. for these people it is all about how "pretty" the work was. their measure is what they see in training, or worse, what they see AT THE TRAINERS when they go to see their dog and/or get some pointers on how to handle them at tests. the NAHRA judges tend to be hunters first and dog trainers second. the setups are rarely technical in nature. the blinds are about as challenging, but because the judges have more hunting experience as a group, they apply a hunting dog standard when they judge them, and recovery is usually judged. again, the tests can be chained together, and this brings difficulty to the table. if you don't think so, consider an upland hunt scenario where the dog must search for birds, staying in gun range, be steady for the flush and shot, and then run a demanding land or water blind from the same location. we go from an independent activity to a very controlled activity without any segue. the NAHRA dog must average 8 or better on 6 different tests, versus 7 or better on 3 or 4 tests in an AKC test. when all is said and done, i think they are of comparable difficulty.

by the way, i think the most demanding venue was NFRA.

PLAY THE GAME(S) YOU LIKE! THE DOGS DON'T CARE! THE BIRDS ARE WHY THE DOGS HAVE FUN, DEGREES ARE FOR THE HUMANS!-Paul


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## tbyars (Mar 29, 2005)

paul young said:


> well, i've read all of this thread and pondered whether i should join the fray. here goes nothin'....
> 
> i've played all 3 and have GMHR, MH, and HRCH degrees on my current dog, as well as an MFR from NFRA, now defunct.
> 
> ...


There is a reason why Paul Young is one of the most respected dogmen in this country. I, too, have run all three of them and Paul's evaluation is right the smack on. By the way Paul, this 'ol country boy loved his first trip into white coat world as well last weekend. No dogs for me this weekend Paul as after I finish typing this, I am taking my fly rod and bow to Virginia for a little R&R, though I am taking Duke with me to walk through our leased land to see if we can flush a grouse or two just for fun!!
Tight lines and Straight Arrows!
Tim


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

K.Bullock said:


> _Yeah Rookie ...relax before you get a fight started. _
> 
> In my honest opinion the difficulty of the tests has less to do with the sanctioning organization than what type of dog the judge runs..
> 
> ...


I don't care who you are, that there is funny! 

ROTFLMAO ......Don


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Full disclosure, I run NAHRA, I have no interest in running AKC with my current dog, if in the future I decide that for breeding purposes I want letters after the name as well as in front, I will most likely put the dog on a local pro's truck for that purpose. I have heard that AKC tests are slow tedious affairs and like being able to run two/three tests in a weekend all the while being around other hunters who love to run their own dogs.

As far as difficulty in tests, judging from what has been said, and what I have seen, and what I have heard from talking to people, there is likely more difference between tests in the same venue then what there is between the venues in terms of difficulty. I am quite sure that there are plenty of MHR's that could cake walk through AKC master series with no additional training, I am sure that there are MHR's that could not. Likewise I am sure that there are MH's that would do both runnning a NAHRA senior series. Given some specified training for the differences in venues I am sure that both groups of dogs could cross over. Dogs just know birds.

I would challenge any ameture handler to come watch a NAHRA Senior series. Sit in the gallery and listen. There will be a running dialogue of arm chair quarterbacking, woulda coulda shoulda's discussing how each others dogs have run, and genuine rooting for each dog as it runs. In my first summer runing senior I learned more in teh gallery than I thought was possible. 

NAHRA is the home for hunters/ameture trainers. We would certainly welcome the pros, but if you don't like always being the little guy, pulling in next to a trailer full of dogs come check it out. We are almost entirely "little guys" whose dogs do big things.

As far as the strength of NAHRA, here in the midwest we are VERY strong. We had 15-16 chances to run senior this year, slightly fewer of the lower stakes but I am not sure.
The Northeast is also very strong, and yes there is one club in Maryland, and a feww in VA. Even in the areas where there is not a strong contingent, there are a few die hards that with a littl new blood, could quickly build some strong clubs. Again, If you are an ameture handler, a hunter, and an all around decent person, you will find many like yourself at a NAHRA event.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm finding this thread interesting as heck.
I've never been to a hunt test. But I'm getting a new pup this winter and I plan on visiting HRC,NAHRA and AKC tests next year.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Is there a pro handler presence at NAHRA these days? There was a time when Woody Thurman, Vito Angelone, Richard MacDonald,John Weller, Rusty Pie and Jim Cimburke were regulars at NAHRA events, but other than Woody who does run AKC in this area from time to time, I rarely see any of these names associated with dogs now.


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

paul young said:


> well, i've read all of this thread and pondered whether i should join the fray. here goes nothin'....
> 
> i've played all 3 and have GMHR, MH, and HRCH degrees on my current dog, as well as an MFR from NFRA, now defunct.
> 
> ...


Paul
Thank you for a well thought out response! You have summarized my thoughts on this tread with a in depth explanation that can only come from a person who has judged both venues.
Thank you 
Rookie


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Yea, I had to have back sugery after you and Bob T. judged together. Cutting that fricken tree from the canoe so the dogs would not get hurt going over it was the straw that broke this camels back. And after all that only one dog went over the blessed thing!!!


Ken
We all know your durable as all get out. I don't think that was the first stick you ever cut but Bob and I thank you for all the help. Your a good man Mr. Bora
Rookie


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

Jim Drager said:


> rookie said:
> 
> 
> > I His opinion is there are too many AKC judges giving away titles to undeserving dogs. There are AKC judges that have many assignments because of a very high pass percentage. I was wondering how many of you feel that the hunt test program is being diminished because of this??
> ...


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Is there a pro handler presence at NAHRA these days? There was a time when Woody Thurman, Vito Angelone, Richard MacDonald,John Weller, Rusty Pie and Jim Cimburke were regulars at NAHRA events, but other than Woody who does run AKC in this area from time to time, I rarely see any of these names associated with dogs now.



Bob, there are still some Pro's that live in VA that still run in NAHRA events that are in close proximity. I don't know about Ken's neck of the woods or the Midwest.


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

crackerd said:


> BTW, apparently your backyard training ground is hosting a NAHRA test this weekend--I ain't running 'em any more (even with a Boykin) because of who *does* run them and essentially runs the show (no flyers, dogs get ribbons without getting wet, etc.) You'll fathom it.
> 
> MG


Don't be shy, post the names.

Silence Is Golden And Sometimes Yellow Regards,

Joe S.


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Is there a pro handler presence at NAHRA these days? There was a time when Woody Thurman, Vito Angelone, Richard MacDonald,John Weller, Rusty Pie and Jim Cimburke were regulars at NAHRA events, but other than Woody who does run AKC in this area from time to time, I rarely see any of these names associated with dogs now.


Bob, as you may recall, Alan Pleasant started as a "NAHRA" Pro in the late 80's or early 90's. He seems to have turned out alright.

Just Sayin' Regards,

Joe S.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Joe S. said:


> Bob, as you may recall, Alan Pleasant started as a "NAHRA" Pro in the late 80's or early 90's. He seems to have turned out alright.
> 
> Just Sayin' Regards,
> 
> Joe S.


YOu read my mind Joe.

Another old time NAHRA pro that was there day in day out was Tom Stasierowski. And let's not forget Joe Letta!

Chris


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> YOu read my mind Joe.
> 
> Another old time NAHRA pro that was there day in day out was Tom Stasierowski. And let's not forget Joe Letta!
> 
> Chris


Brother Chris,

I seem to recall several people that got started in NAHRA, had their ups and downs with the Organization, and then just moved on with life. In the end, THEY ALL turned pretty much OK. ;-)

Patrick Still Has That Duck Call Regards,

Joe S.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Scott Carruth started in NAHRA....was a pro now Am again.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd like to believe all of us NAHRA-heritage retriever freaks turned out OK... The list, when we go beyond the guys who started as NAHRA pros grows rapidly.

I believe that NAHRA, fed quite a few folks into the FT program. Actually ironic considering that the "original" intent was to get away from FT's and make a game for the average Joe.

I maintain that it has never, ever been better for the retriever enthusiast than it is today. Despite the economic crunch and fuel prices, the dog games have evolved to the point that there are so many choices and so many nuances between one organization and the other.

I can honestly say that I have yet to experience any retriever venue or event, in any state or country, whether competitive or by standard, whether for sport or for pay, that I did not care for. They all are awesome.

It truly can be, and should be about the dogs.... And only if it were for most of us...particularly a few of those who have made the term "It's all about the dogs" a cliche!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

The one thing I know about all the NAHRA guys I know…they still like to grab a shotgun, load up the dog and go to the field. I can’t say that about 50% of my AKC acquaintances.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

I met Alan and Gwen at the Talbot RC Master in the mid 1990s. I was unaware he had run NAHRA.


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> I met Alan and Gwen at the Talbot RC Master in the mid 1990s. I was unaware he had run NAHRA.


He ran it well, too. Easy going. Approachable. Worked hard and was good with his dogs. His dogs ALWAYS ran happy, unlike some.

Nothing much has changed.

Take Care Regards,

Joe S.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I'll probably never forget a NAHRA event at Ricky Borne's place in the Catskills. Allan had this really unique double-armed over cast. When he gave it, the dogs took it.

Paul Young and a southern boy judged. They had a round pond with a little triple. My Champ dog came back with the second of the triple and was the first dog out of many to pick up both marks without getting so much as a foot wet. I said to old Champ "Shake" when he gave me the second bird...out of habit. As I recall, Paul's co-judge closed his book at that point! Ah the memories!


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'll probably never forget a NAHRA event at Ricky Borne's place in the Catskills. Allan had this really unique double-armed over cast. When he gave it, the dogs took it.
> 
> Paul Young and a southern boy judged. They had a round pond with a little triple. My Champ dog came back with the second of the triple and was the first dog out of many to pick up both marks without getting so much as a foot wet. I said to old Champ "Shake" when he gave me the second bird...out of habit. As I recall, Paul's co-judge closed his book at that point! Ah the memories!


Hilarious!


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Well I am in NAHRA country so I will be stepping "back" into the game. I have had the pleasure of running Meg at LCRC's senior stake as test dog and I did run her one year and passed, so she is on her way to her MHR. 
In my opinion..... NAHRA has more stuff going on then AKC which in some cases can make it more of a challenge to the dog that has happy feet at the line. AKC is just more techical, period, end of statment. I don't always feel that my judges get out and hunt with their dogs which shows in the test and judging that they set up. On the other hand every NAHRA test I have run over the years was set up and judged by judges that get off the couch in the Fall and hunt! 
And Paul glad you are feeling well enough to post! Glad you are better now.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

To answer the question of wether or not any pros still run NAHRA, I would say "sorta"

There are a number of guys that do a little training for other people, but have a real job as well. They will do basic OB, FF, some handling drills with "client dogs" before and after work, in some cases they use that money to send their own dogs south for the winter on somebody elses truck, or to pay for the pheasent trip to SD. There are also a few guys that have HUnting Preserves or whatever that use NAHRA to keep their guide dogs in shape, and also offer training seminars on their preserve, would you count either of these situations as a "pro" trainer/handler. 

Pros by definition are in it for the money, and since the AKC won't put NAHRA titles on their pedigrees, an AKC title is worth more to someone who doesn't know anything about dog games because it is on the pedigree that the almighty AKC sends in the mail. If the shoe were reversed, I would bet that many pros would be jetting to whichever venue was associated with the registry...


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I've run both, in the past. Now, I just spend time with my dog in the field. If a hunting season is open I'm carrying a gun. If there isn't a hunting season open I'm not carrying a gun.

Both games were fun but different. I found the attitude I took to them impacted how much I enjoyed them the most. If I were to start playing the dog games again and could have things the way I wanted I would live near several NAHRA clubs to run. I enjoyed them the most because they tended to have more of a hunting nature to them. 

One Intermediate test sticks in my mind. Jim Karr was one of the judges, I don't remember the other. It was at Coshocton at the bottom of a draw in a pond with some flooded timber. You brought your dog to the line and sat, quietly for several minutes. This was followed by lots of calling. With a hill on three sides the calls really rang. And went on, and on, and on. There may have been a guy with a Kingon call that was really loud too. Then there were two marks thrown. Many handlers would come to the line and get their dogs settled and then wave their hand behind their back to let the judges know they were ready. Nothing would happen so they would wave a littel more vigorously. Still nothing would happen so they would wave even harder and peek a look behind them to see what the hang up was. The judges were just sitting their enjoying the peace and quiet. As I remember the dogs did pretty well for the most part. But, the handlers were a nervous wreck having to wait quietly so long waiting for the marks.

There never seemed to be the underlying competition between handlers at the NAHRA tests that there was at the AKC test. People asked how your dog did without asking about their age, or the number of whistles they did the blind in. It wasn't that the NAHRA tests were better, I just had more fun running them.

Tom


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Pros are in the game to make a living. That agreed upon, which organization provides them with more opportunities to run hunt tests? At least here in the mid atlantic, there are multiple AKC events each weekend. The last weekend of this month there are 9 AKC events nationwide. The NAHRA website lists 5 events for the whole month. I think that has more to do with who plays which game than do pedigrees.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'll probably never forget a NAHRA event at Ricky Borne's place in the Catskills. Allan had this really unique double-armed over cast. When he gave it, the dogs took it.
> 
> Paul Young and a southern boy judged. They had a round pond with a little triple. My Champ dog came back with the second of the triple and was the first dog out of many to pick up both marks without getting so much as a foot wet. I said to old Champ "Shake" when he gave me the second bird...out of habit. As I recall, Paul's co-judge closed his book at that point! Ah the memories!


Awesome story!


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

When George Bragaw was alive, he and his significant other used to hunt together often but Mary didn't have a dog. George asked me if I could find her a Golden that was retiring. A friend had heard of a male named Tamarac's something or other and they were thinking of placing the dog because he had one problem. He'd actually placed in a couple of Opens as I recall but, he didn't like male trainers that were carrying a remote. Didn't like them at all. He didn't have any problems with a female holding a remote. The dog sounded perfect ... fully trained and preferred lady handlers.

They'd had the dog for about two weeks and George saw a piece in the paper about a NAHRA test and it explained all the stakes. Well, George hadn't attended a field trial so he had nothing to compare a NAHRA test to ... so he decided to go and to enter the dog in Started. George had no idea what the dog could do.

Day of the test. Three land singles. When it was his turn, he went to the truck, put a lead on the dog, and went to the first blind and then to the IP. He told me the dog, which normally was a bit of a goofball, was becoming more intense with each step. When he got to the line and removed the lead, the dog dropped into what George called a sprinters starting position. The bird was put up and the gun went off and the judge called "dog". Out and back. They did it again and then again. The dog picked up three single marks and brought them back to perfect heel in a total of about 30 seconds. George was astounded and wondered how he and Dilly would ever beat Mary and the Golden. One of the judges asked as they left the line, "Say. Haven't seen you before. Where did you get the dog." Here George had a great presence of mind and said "We've trained him to pick up the morning paper and when we saw the article about the test just thought it would be fun to see how he'd do" and then strolled back to the truck.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Great to get the warm-and-fuzzies over some of rtf characters coming back into memory with this thread - Coach "Bear" Gutermuth and kjrice not the least of 'em (and both right-thinking Alabamians at heart). For what it's worth, NAHRA was a great landing spot for running hunt tests if you happened to have retrieving breeds not eligible at the time for AKC HTs - and I had three of those. Long live NAHRA.

MG


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Love this nine year old thread, also Eric's story about the over qualified Golden.

I started in NAHRA, back in the 90s it was pretty popular out west and up in Alberta. NAHRA was super fun for me and my dog, and a very good venue. I think with the sit-to-flush, quartering and tracking test NAHRA is more complete. It's been my experience that AKC marks and blinds are more challenging than NAHRA. Both venues do a good job preparing dog and handler for real hunting.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> Love this nine year old thread, also Eric's story about the over qualified Golden.
> 
> I started in NAHRA, back in the 90s it was pretty popular out west and up in Alberta. NAHRA was super fun for me and my dog, and a very good venue. I think with the sit-to-flush, quartering and tracking test NAHRA is more complete. It's been my experience that AKC marks and blinds are more challenging than NAHRA. Both venues do a good job preparing dog and handler for real hunting.


John,
Me and Elvis cut our teeth running NAHRA in IA and MN 9 years ago.
I found bird placement to be challenging.
I met some legends, like Mr Williams!
We had so much fun.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:


> When George Bragaw was alive, he and his significant other used to hunt together often but Mary didn't have a dog. George asked me if I could find her a Golden that was retiring. A friend had heard of a male named Tamarac's something or other and they were thinking of placing the dog because he had one problem. He'd actually placed in a couple of Opens as I recall but, he didn't like male trainers that were carrying a remote. Didn't like them at all. He didn't have any problems with a female holding a remote. The dog sounded perfect ... fully trained and preferred lady handlers.
> 
> They'd had the dog for about two weeks and George saw a piece in the paper about a NAHRA test and it explained all the stakes. Well, George hadn't attended a field trial so he had nothing to compare a NAHRA test to ... so he decided to go and to enter the dog in Started. George had no idea what the dog could do.
> 
> Day of the test. Three land singles. When it was his turn, he went to the truck, put a lead on the dog, and went to the first blind and then to the IP. He told me the dog, which normally was a bit of a goofball, was becoming more intense with each step. When he got to the line and removed the lead, the dog dropped into what George called a sprinters starting position. The bird was put up and the gun went off and the judge called "dog". Out and back. They did it again and then again. The dog picked up three single marks and brought them back to perfect heel in a total of about 30 seconds. George was astounded and wondered how he and Dilly would ever beat Mary and the Golden. One of the judges asked as they left the line, "Say. Haven't seen you before. Where did you get the dog." Here George had a great presence of mind and said "We've trained him to pick up the morning paper and when we saw the article about the test just thought it would be fun to see how he'd do" and then strolled back to the truck.


Awesome story.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> Love this nine year old thread, also Eric's story about the over qualified Golden.
> 
> I started in NAHRA, back in the 90s it was pretty popular out west and up in Alberta. NAHRA was super fun for me and my dog, and a very good venue. I think with the sit-to-flush, quartering and tracking test NAHRA is more complete. It's been my experience that AKC marks and blinds are more challenging than NAHRA. Both venues do a good job preparing dog and handler for real hunting.


FYI .... they are back running NAHRA in Alberta again!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I love running NAHRA tests. 

If I move permanently to MO, I am hoping to start a NAHRA affiliated club down there - if there is interest...... That is a couple years down the road, if at all....


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Tobias said:


> If I move permanently to MO, I am hoping to start a NAHRA affiliated club down there - if there is interest.......


And NAHRA would be happy to help!


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