# Unbelievable Bumper Boy policy



## Mike Perry

Called BB yesterday to send them 2 4 shooters that I bought off of the Used Equipment section of RTF.
Bought them back in Sept/Oct from someone in La. 
I knew they were a little rough but the $ was right so I bought them anyway. Got the 4 shooters and they were in better shape than represented. 
Need to send them in for new batteries and a check up as it's getting into real training season.
Amy @ BB tells me that they won't service them unless I can tell her who I bought them from.
"Why?"
"Because we have a lot out there that weren't paid for and we won't service these units until we get paid."
I'm not asking for warranty. These are obviously several years old and I am very willing to pay for the service. I told her this. 
Sorry, that's policy.
Being in business for myself, I understand that it's good to get paid for your product, but I don't ask my customers to go out and help me collect my bad debts.
I checked the classified section to find the ad, but it has apparently been deleted or I just can't find it. I gues I'm S.O.L.
Over the last 2 years or so, the service @ BB has gotten much better from my point of view and several others on this board, but this policy is beyond belief.
If you are the person in La. that sold these to me, please PM me so I may have the chance to get service.


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## K G

Somebody help me understand how they would _ship_ product without having been *paid* for it first :?: :?: :?: :shock: :shock: :shock: 

And how is someone who bought the product used responsible for BB's poor internal controls?

Wow....... :roll: 

kg


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## clipper

Isn't there a serial number (I am too lazy to go check mine) on the unit that they could use to determine this?


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## Paul Stuart

Ken
It was probably a raffle item that was donated by BB and they are not wanting to deal with that any more. Just a guess.


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## Matt Miller

That is just INSANE !!!!!!


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## lablover

There are no serial #'s on BB's. Isn't that strange.

Mike, I would call Tom Lolar at BB. He's the President.


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## KNorman

Go to RadioShack and get a new rechargable battery. 

All you have to do is snip the adaptor off and wire the adaptor from your existing battery into it. (I think that's what I did :?: )


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## Patrick Johndrow

BB are great products but they are some strange folks to be sure. I would be beating it down to my local Radio Shak for parts instead of dealing with BB customer service.


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## stevelow

You can fix most things yourself. The transmitter battery is simply a 9 volt D battery; they come with rechargable but a regular battery will last a long time. The receiver batteries are AAs in series; probably can buy as a battery pack at Radio Shack as suggested by Cat Squirrel. The servos occasionally go bad, and you can buy a replacement at most model or hobby shops. I've worked on these a lot. Let me know if I can help.


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## KNorman

It's been awhile, but I think all I did was open up the unit and remove the old battery. Brought it to RadioShack and they matched it as well as they could. I think it was 900 milliamps??? An eletrical person could chime in here   

Anyway, the plug didn't quite fit so I just snipped it off and taped the other plug from the old battery on the new :wink: I made sure to double check my connections since they would be recharged.


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## Vicky Trainor

K G said:


> Somebody help me understand how they would _ship_ product without having been *paid* for it first :?: :?: :?: :shock: :shock: :shock:
> kg


I don't know what BB's present policy is, but, in the past, they had financing program for Pros and Reps. When I bought my BBs, I paid monthly and, when I would sell a unit, my commission was deducted from my balance.

Vicky


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## badbullgator

I gotta tell you that I have been BB person from day one, but I am soooo sick of the crap they are pulling that I am done with them. They make a fine product and they have always given me good (and usually free) service but the crap I hear from people on this and other forums, as well as forums some people that I have recommended the product too is just unbelievable. If you remember a few months back people were posting about the launch bases being made of plastic on the old models and the cost to replace them was greater than to buy new models. BB was willing to make no concessions to people who had unknowingly purchased their previously faulty products (the launch base has since been made of metal). They, I believe, offered people that owned the plastic models a free upgrade, but if you had purchased a used model you were SOL. That in MHO is just poor customer service. If you want to be the best you must strive to actually be the best, not just proclaim it by hiring a cheating SOB as your spokesperson.
As far as how did they get units out there that were not paid for?they had/have a finance program that is no credit check, no contract, pay as you can thing for pros. Not to put a general knock on pros, but there are a lot of ?pros? that can?t hardly keep the power on much less make payments on several thousand dollars worth of equipment, again not taking a pot shot at most if not all of the pros here, but we all know how easy it is to be a ?pro? and set up shop till the money runs out and then they are gone. More important than how they got unpaid for units out there is the fact that they are punishing people who are not responsible for it happening. BB had/has a bad policy. If I had a product on the market and they had a problem I would want ALL of them returned and/or fixed. I would not want someone showing up a club training day or any training day with a faulty product of my making. What terrible PR. It is even worse if the person is trying to pay you to make the needed repairs.


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## Misty Marsh

Like the man said "he's not asking for warrantee", he just wants a service technition to take a look at them, give them a quick tune up, new battery, and a bill! "It's just our policy", what crap!, the translation is :"we are going to penalize everyone because we made poor policy in the past and did'nt get our money". I guess it's nice when your 1 of 2 games in town!


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## badbullgator

Misty Marsh Labradors said:


> Like the man said "he's not asking for warrantee", he just wants a service technition to take a look at them, give them a quick tune up, new battery, and a bill! "It's just our policy", what crap!, the translation is :"we are going to penalize everyone because we made poor policy in the past and did'nt get our money". I guess it's nice when your 1 of 2 games in town!


You got that right. When they hired Hill O? Beans as spokesman there were tons of complaints. When I talked to Amy she just could not care less. They don?t seem to care what people think about them or their service. It is a shame that such a nice product has taken a downward spiral due to a poor attitude by those who run the company. It is nice when your one of the only games in town. I use to think I couldn?t live without mine, but I have not used them in three months now. Wingers are more work because you have to reload after every throw, but I think my dogs are better for it.


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## lablover

Every time a perspective BB buyer reads these complaints about poor customer service, they lose that buyer. At the cost of these things, you would think they would work better, with quality parts, and the customer service would be top notch.
When I was a BB rep, I continually have to go to bat for my customers because they were having trouble with BB. Sometimes I was able to help and sometimes not.
I know one woman in MN that has had consistant problems with her BB's and getting service on them, even service that she is paying for!
I advised her to contact her local BBB and the Washington State BBB and file formal complaints. 
I would suggest that to all that are having problems with BB products and services. Whether or not you get your problem solved, you will have caused BB the time and effort to respond to the BBB.


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## Bob Gutermuth

Why not buy them thru a 3rd party(I got mine from Dogs Afield) and put them on a credit card? That way whern there is a dispute, the 3rd party assuming you get one with a good customer service policy and or the CC company can be used for leverage. BTW the Dogs Afield price is a few bucks cheaper than BB's price and the freight is FREE.


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## Guest

Sounds like their in big $$$ trouble!

Lawrence Jeur


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## glenn

Hey Mike,

Sorry to hear your having problems with BB, I've had pretty good luck with them ( probably helps that I'm a rep ). I pretty good at fixing BB's so if you need help feel free to drop me a line. Most problems are pretty easy to fix, and you can probably do them yourself. If you just want new batteries, take them to a hobby shop and they can match them up. The batteries in the reciever are the same ones they use in remote control cars. The transmitter is a NICAD 9v which is pretty easy to find.


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## Mistyriver

LLJ said:


> Sounds like their in big $$$ trouble!
> 
> Lawrence Jeur


Care to elaborate Lawrence or is that just speculation?? :roll:


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## badbullgator

> Why not buy them thru a 3rd party(I got mine from Dogs Afield) and put them on a credit card? That way whern there is a dispute, the 3rd party assuming you get one with a good customer service policy and or the CC company can be used for leverage. BTW the Dogs Afield price is a few bucks cheaper than BB's price and the freight is FREE.


Bob
I think the original post states he bought them used and BB would not service them even if he paid for them unless they knew where they came from. I hear few complaints with new purchases. Good idea if you buying new but that is not the issue.
If someone is going to pay to have them serviced, who cares where they came from.


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## msdaisey

Ask for Tom. DO NOT talk to Amy. Waste of oxygen. . .


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## achiro

msdaisey said:


> Ask for Tom. DO NOT talk to Amy. Waste of oxygen. . .


Now that right there is funny. :lol:


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## Sean Barbey

FYI.......... When Bumper Boy first came on the scene, they grew too fast. I believe they were shipping and receiving units with poor records practices. I am sure that alot of units slipped through the cracks and were never paid for. I sent a derby double in for an upgrade to a four shooter and they called to ask me when I was sending it in, as they had already shipped me the four shooter two weeks prior to the phone call. I told them that I had shipped it to them. I gave them the tracking number from UPS. They had no record, but I had record from UPS that the unit had been delivered to them. This was long before Amy or Aaron. This might be the reason for the policy. It does not speak too highly of customer service and standing behind their products. Evidently, they don't care.

Sean


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## Luker

I got the same story back when I was looking at purchasing a used unit and I called to see what it would cost to refurbish the unit, sad to see nothing has changed. They used to pay attention to these types of forums, so maybe they're reading this stuff and some changes will be made.

In the mean time, like everyone else has said, most of the problems can be fixed at home with a trip to the local electronics store...


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## badbullgator

> They used to pay attention to these types of forums, so maybe they're reading this stuff and some changes will be made.


I don?t think they do anymore. If they did they would not have the same spokesman after seeing the outpouring of love everyone here has for him. :wink:


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## Mike Perry

Thanks for the support and the suggestions.
appaently I'm not the only one with custoemr service issues. 

I love mine I have 2 4 shooters and 3 2 shooters. i mostly train alone and find them pretty efficient whne they work.

When there is another company to offer competition, we'll probably see some improvement in customer service. Until then..........


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## Mistyriver

Badbullgator said:


> "If someone is going to pay to have them serviced, who cares where they came from".



Badbullgator,

I don't know about you but if I owned a small company and I had some merchandise that was not paid for some how I would be reluctant to service it. Maybe someone didn't return a product that may have been defective and the company sent them a new one and trusted that they would send the old one back. Maybe the unit was stolen! Heck, if someone did get one and didn't pay for it I would consider that stolen! All they are asking is some type of proof of purchase whether its the original owner or the new owner. 

I can't really honestly say what kind of service BB has. I just got 2 new DD but have not used them yet. Gee, one of your previous posts convinced me to buy them.

Thanks :?  

Bill


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## Mike Perry

I like the units. 
But not the attitude. 
If they want to pay me to keep track of inventory and receivables, I might be able to be bought, but I ain't cheap.


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## badbullgator

> Badbullgator,
> 
> I don't know about you but if I owned a small company and I had some merchandise that was not paid for some how I would be reluctant to service it. Maybe someone didn't return a product that may have been defective and the company sent them a new one and trusted that they would send the old one back. Maybe the unit was stolen! Heck, if someone did get one and didn't pay for it I would consider that stolen! All they are asking is some type of proof of purchase whether its the original owner or the new owner.
> 
> I can't really honestly say what kind of service BB has. I just got 2 new DD but have not used them yet. Gee, one of your previous posts convinced me to buy them.


I would still recommend them, BUT I would add what I think about the general attitude they have towards customer service and satisfaction. I use to think that they were slow because they were a small company and the units ended up having to go into Canada for service (ship to Washington), but I am beginning to believe that it is their general lack of caring.
I sated that I have always had good service from them with few exceptions. I stand by that. Just as you say that you?re bought your DD in part because of recommendations form myself and others, I am starting to question what is happening at BB because of others ?recommendations?. To clarify what I said about having not used mine in months, it is because I am training with my Gunners Up wingers pretty much exclusively. 
As far as being a small company and ??If I owned a company that manufactured a product that I was proud of I would not care where they came from. The bad publicity of ANY product not working and then being brought to the attention of a huge number of people in a public forum would far outweigh any cost involved to make the product right. If they were stolen because of my companies poor record keeping I would still rather fix them, making money form it, and have happy product users. If your training with someone and they say I will bring my BB?s the chances are they are not going to tell you they stole them. You will never know. What you will know is if they work and impress you and make you think they might be what you want to train your dog with. If they same person shows up with BB?s (again stolen but unknown to you), and they only work half the time what are you going to think? My stupidity, good intentions, whatever in having them stolen in the first place was just compounded because not only was I ripped off, but now potential costumers have seen a faulty product. These are extreme examples but none the less fair.
How far would you have to go to prove ownership? What if you buy them online? How do you really know who you?re buying them from? What if you buy them and they were not paid for by the original owner? What if you buy them and they were stolen? What if they are sold several times. I could sell you a set and you could sell that set and they could sell it yet again. How are they going to know that I was the one who bought them?


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## Mistyriver

Badbullgator said:


> Badbullgator,
> 
> How far would you have to go to prove ownership? What if you buy them online? How do you really know who you?re buying them from? What if you buy them and they were not paid for by the original owner? What if you buy them and they were stolen? What if they are sold several times. I could sell you a set and you could sell that set and they could sell it yet again. How are they going to know that I was the one who bought them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good points Badullgator, I guess I wasn't thinking past the previous owner. If I bought them online I would at least have the name of that owner since I most likely wrote a check or used paypal or some source of payment besides cash in the mail. But you have a point if they were sold several times then you would never know. Its like any product, some people are happy and some have bad experiences. Being that BB is a small company I don't think they can afford the bad publicity as much as a large company can. Hopefully someone from the company reads these forums! I went back and read all the previous posts on BB and there was a lot of positive feed back up until Mike's posting. I think if I was Mike I would try and fix them myself as long as their are no major parts broken and it just a servo or battery.
> 
> MistyRiver
Click to expand...


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## badbullgator

Mike could try a local radio control hobby shop. I have bought servos and had an on/off switch fixed by one locally.


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## Chris Richards

I am going to go home and file my reciepts for my BB's in a very safe place! I got mine from LC about a year ago and called BB several months later to get the bag and they were very interested because I was not in there system. Now I know why!


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## lovesthelabs

WOW! I was shocked when I read this thread because Amy's always been very helpful to me when I can her for programming help. I called and discussed this with her and this is how I understand it:

Their first run of units over five years ago were made with plastic parts. When they realized that they could be made better with aluminum parts, they called everyone with the older plastic units and upgraded them to the new ones. In order to get a new one, you had to send in your plastic unit. In an effort to offer good customer service and allow their customers to have no down time in their training, they sent some new units out to people before getting the old one back. BB trusted that these customers would return the old unit. This turned out not to be the case and a lot of people kept the old ones. Maybe they just forgot to send them in, or whatever. So these people ended up with two units for the price of one. Now BB is finding that some people are selling these and the buyers are calling to upgrade them to the new style. So BB ends up upgrading the same unit twice. If the old units were not perviously upgraded then they have no problem upgrading them. (this is why they need the name of the original buyer).

BUT she did say that if they need to be serviced then that is no problem. She said that BB will always service the units. But these units are over 5 years old and they may not have many of the original parts.

This comes down to the old rule Buyers Beware. If you're buying used expensive, 5 + year old equipment, maybe you should look into it first? Or at the very least keep the name of the person you bought them from. Because i'm sure that person knew they were supposed to have returned them and is now trying to make a profit from them.


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## Misty Marsh

I see why BB has adopted ther policy, but I also see the customers that will buy the product (used) the first time and will be pissed right off and lost forever with thier first customer service contact! I understand BB trying to cut down on customer down time by upgrading this way, but really they opened themselves up to this type of problem and most anybody could have seen it coming! It all could have been avoided by serial numbers and better "house keeping" in the BB office. I guess I don't know how much money they have lost in the "upgrading" fiasko, but unless it's a real substansial amount that justifies upsetting customers I'd be inclined to help out the customers and recoup some of the lost monies through service.


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## badbullgator

lovesthelabs said:


> WOW! I was shocked when I read this thread because Amy's always been very helpful to me when I can her for programming help. I called and discussed this with her and this is how I understand it:
> 
> Their first run of units over five years ago were made with plastic parts. When they realized that they could be made better with aluminum parts, they called everyone with the older plastic units and upgraded them to the new ones. In order to get a new one, you had to send in your plastic unit. In an effort to offer good customer service and allow their customers to have no down time in their training, they sent some new units out to people before getting the old one back. BB trusted that these customers would return the old unit. This turned out not to be the case and a lot of people kept the old ones. Maybe they just forgot to send them in, or whatever. So these people ended up with two units for the price of one. Now BB is finding that some people are selling these and the buyers are calling to upgrade them to the new style. So BB ends up upgrading the same unit twice. If the old units were not perviously upgraded then they have no problem upgrading them. (this is why they need the name of the original buyer).
> 
> BUT she did say that if they need to be serviced then that is no problem. She said that BB will always service the units. But these units are over 5 years old and they may not have many of the original parts.
> 
> This comes down to the old rule Buyers Beware. If you're buying used expensive, 5 + year old equipment, maybe you should look into it first? Or at the very least keep the name of the person you bought them from. Because i'm sure that person knew they were supposed to have returned them and is now trying to make a profit from them.



So from this I get a few things. 
1.	either you or Amy are saying that either Mike is incorrect in what he ?Thought? Amy told him, or he is lying about it.
2.	that a company that wants/has a reputation of making a top-of-the-line product has every right to say buyer beware and your SOL if you buy our product used.
Please go and read the entire thread and you will see that how they got product out there is irrelevant and has already been discussed. The original post stated that he needed batteries and a tune up, not a refurbished model. In all fairness, Mike has not mentioned if the launchers have the plastic bases or not. It has also been discussed that having the name of the original owner is not always a possibility because these units may have been sold more than once, or they could have been purchased for cash from someone at a HT/FT what have you. I would not think twice about buying something from a fellow dog trainer at an event if they looked in good working order and it was a good deal. 
I will pose this question. What if they were bought from someone who did not return them or got them without paying for any of the reasons previously discussed, does this mean that the person who bought them unknowingly should simply be SOL?
Customer satisfaction goes a long way, especially in a small community such as the HT/FT world. It would be nice if Amy or Tom, knowing of this discussion would come on and clear the air as other vendors do from time to time.

Still a BB user, just somewhat disgruntled regards


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## huntH2OFowl

I have two 4-shooters. I absolutely LOVE them!!! I have had nothing but good experience with BB and would recommend them to anyone looking for a bumper launcher. I truly think they are the best out there. 

With that said, 



> Customer satisfaction goes a long way, especially in a small community such as the HT/FT world.


I absolutely agree! I think they are dealing with a small set of potential customers and service / customer relations should be at the top of their list. The bottom line, IMHO, is that it shouldn't matter where it was purchased. Especially if the customer is not asking for it to be covered under a warranty. Fix it and prepare to have future customers based on your service OR tick the cusomer off and lose 20-30 potential customers. It doesn't seem like too hard of a choice to me.


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## badbullgator

huntH2OFowl said:


> I have two 4-shooters. I absolutely LOVE them!!! I have had nothing but good experience with BB and would recommend them to anyone looking for a bumper launcher. I truly think they are the best out there.
> 
> With that said,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Customer satisfaction goes a long way, especially in a small community such as the HT/FT world.
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree! I think they are dealing with a small set of potential customers and service / customer relations should be at the top of their list. The bottom line, IMHO, is that it shouldn't matter where it was purchased. Especially if the customer is not asking for it to be covered under a warranty. Fix it and prepare to have future customers based on your service OR tick the cusomer off and lose 20-30 potential customers. It doesn't seem like too hard of a choice to me.
Click to expand...

There you go. That is what I have been saying all along, including recommending BB.


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## Steve Amrein

Anything that a company builds should have a serial or batch number so you can keep track of quality control.

I can barely find the title for my 40+K truck to get plates for it I darn sure cant find a reciept for a (fill in the blank) that I may have paid cash for.

My favorite store Cabelas has GREAT customer service. I bought a pair of waders that had developed a leak in the seam. I called them and said I dont have a reciept or even know when I bought them but can you help. they looked it up on the computor and it turned out my dad bought them for me as a gift. They sent out a new pair that day. That is what makes a company have customer loyalty. 

Not knocking BB but its much cheaper and easier to keep a customer than to get a new one. Read that on a wall somewhere but it seems appropriate in this case.


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## Mistyriver

Yep, as I stated in previous posts. I just bought 2 DD based on Badbullgator and others recomendations. Mike is not asking for anything free and he is not asking for an upgrade. Just batteries and a check out of existing equipment to make sure its good. I do feel bad for Mike considering he just shelled out X number of dollars and now can't use them.

PS. I did pull a Badbullgator yesterday for my first time out using them. I told myself, self don't forget to take it slow and make sure everything is setup correctly. Got back to my line, removed the dog, give a quack on duck call, quack back on DD, and Launch!! Nothing happens!! Launch #2, nothing happens. :? Ok whats going on? Run back thru mentally and yep forgot to cock it.  Otherwise they worked great!!!

MistyRiver


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## Guest

I have read the thread regarding Bumper Boy service and repairs with interest. We are very proud of our products and the people that represent Bumper Boy. We believe that Bumper Boy is the finest and most reliable retriever training launcher on the market today. Following are our standard policies and procedures regarding service and repair of your Bumper Boy launcher.

Over the last two years we have put a number of procedures in place to address all customer service issues. Any customer, including everyone on this thread, is encouraged to contact us directly with any questions or concerns. 

We have put the follow procedures in place to allow quick action on any issues. 

24 hour action hotline - any unanswered service issues can be sent to a special expedite email address at [email protected].
All issues sent to this address will be answered within 24 hours of receiving.

Special priority repair service - repair parts are sent out immediately as long as Bumper Boy receives a tracking number for the returning goods.

We believe these procedures have greatly increased our customer service and have responded to all concerns. If any clients remain unsatisfied they should address their concerns to the above. 

Bumper Boy Standard Policies:

Service on Plastic Type Launchers

These launchers were last manufactured approximately 7 years ago. Currently we service these launchers but parts such as batteries and plates are becoming limited due to aging technology (many companies no longer produce these electronic parts). 

Service is done on a time and material bases.

There are a very limited number of plastic units in the field (our estimate is fewer than 20 units). The upgrade program to the newer generation units is still in place. 

Note: Bumper Boy is the only vendor with this type of upgrade program in place on all of their products.


General Service & Warranty Eligibility 

Bumper Boy offers service on any unit, regardless of original owner or resale owner. However, service or warranty may not apply in the following cases.

? Stolen Units: (units without proof of purchase, valid bill of sale, or a non registered user) Any equipment is not the property of a buyer until full payment is made and title is transferred. This is standard with all companies and all equipment. (Cars, computers, furniture, etc.) 

? Unreturned Units: These units are contractually the property of Bumper Boy. A limited number of units were not returned during our upgrade program. These units are no longer the property of the user and can therefore not be sold or upgraded again. 


Before purchasing any used equipment customers should have a valid bill of sale or call Bumper Boy directly to verify type of unit and service requirements. 


If you have any additional questions please feel free to call me directly. I think these procedures are pretty standard for any company and I am aware of no issues that have not been resolved. 


Regards,
Tom Lalor
President


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## huntH2OFowl

Tom,

Thanks for posting! I am glad to see that you are listening to your customer base. The information you provided was helpful, but I am still curious how a person who purchases a used item is supposed to know if it was an item that was purchased or an item that was not returned. It seems to me that a simple set of serial numbers would sove this problem. If there were no serial numbers, it seems to me that your company should give the consumer the benefit of doubt. You are setting the scene for future interactions with your company and potentially more sales.

Once again, I would like to say that I have been nothing but satisfied with my BB. To me, it is so better than the "etch mark" stuff it isn't funny. I am not criticizing your product, but some of your decisions.


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## fcafcblue

Mike Perry said:


> Called BB yesterday to send them 2 4 shooters that I bought off of the Used Equipment section of RTF.
> Bought them back in Sept/Oct from someone in La.
> I knew they were a little rough but the $ was right so I bought them anyway. Got the 4 shooters and they were in better shape than represented.
> Need to send them in for new batteries and a check up as it's getting into real training season.
> Amy @ BB tells me that they won't service them unless I can tell her who I bought them from.
> "Why?"
> "Because we have a lot out there that weren't paid for and we won't service these units until we get paid."
> I'm not asking for warranty. These are obviously several years old and I am very willing to pay for the service. I told her this.
> Sorry, that's policy.
> Being in business for myself, I understand that it's good to get paid for your product, but I don't ask my customers to go out and help me collect my bad debts.
> I checked the classified section to find the ad, but it has apparently been deleted or I just can't find it. I gues I'm S.O.L.
> Over the last 2 years or so, the service @ BB has gotten much better from my point of view and several others on this board, but this policy is beyond belief.
> If you are the person in La. that sold these to me, please PM me so I may have the chance to get service.


Sorry to here about your problem with BB. I have taken alot off BB on trade for my system. Let me know if I can help.
Thank You
John


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## Zack

I can tell ya that after reading this, I wont ever purchase a BB new or used. How can you hold a used buyer responsible for your own stupidity. He isnt asking for warranty work. He has stated that he planned on paying for the service. Comparing policies for a freakin bumper launcher to automobiles? Sounds like a headache I will be sure that I never have to endure.


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## badbullgator

> Bumper Boy offers service on any unit, regardless of original owner or resale owner. However, service or warranty may not apply in the following cases.
> 
> ? Stolen Units: (units without proof of purchase, valid bill of sale, or a non registered user) Any equipment is not the property of a buyer until full payment is made and title is transferred. This is standard with all companies and all equipment. (Cars, computers, furniture, etc.)
> 
> ? Unreturned Units: These units are contractually the property of Bumper Boy. A limited number of units were not returned during our upgrade program. These units are no longer the property of the user and can therefore not be sold or upgraded again.
> 
> 
> Before purchasing any used equipment customers should have a valid bill of sale or call Bumper Boy directly to verify type of unit and service requirements.


Tom
Thanks for posting. I have to say that the way you lay it out looks a lot like you are punishing people for buying used units. I understand that you have probably lost money on the units you describe BUT we are not talking cars here that have a title with them. You can purchase a gun, in most states, without any proof of ownership, why should I or anyone else buying a used piece of dog training equipment have to do a background check to see where it came from? You are laying a lot on a potential customers head. I am sure you would rather have them buy new units, but there are a lot of people who simply cannot afford them and have no other option than to buy used. I be the used buyers will use your services and maybe, down the road, will purchase new units when they can afford them. 
I have posed the question a number of times now, what if the unit has been sold several times? What if I am at a dog event and someone has a few units for sale and I pay cash for them with no clue, really, as to who the person selling them is? 
Since you are now aware of the problems, non-returned or stolen, and they should no longer be happening, why not just bite the bullet and repair a used unit regardless of who now ?owns? them? If someone has bought a set of BB?s and they did turn out to be one of the above mentioned units, what are you going to do about them? Ask for them back? Start legal action? Create more dissatisfaction? :roll:


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## Golddogs

Badbullgator said:


> Bumper Boy offers service on any unit, regardless of original owner or resale owner. However, service or warranty may not apply in the following cases.
> 
> ? Stolen Units: (units without proof of purchase, valid bill of sale, or a non registered user) Any equipment is not the property of a buyer until full payment is made and title is transferred. This is standard with all companies and all equipment. (Cars, computers, furniture, etc.)
> 
> ? Unreturned Units: These units are contractually the property of Bumper Boy. A limited number of units were not returned during our upgrade program. These units are no longer the property of the user and can therefore not be sold or upgraded again.
> 
> 
> Before purchasing any used equipment customers should have a valid bill of sale or call Bumper Boy directly to verify type of unit and service requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom
> Thanks for posting. I have to say that the way you lay it out looks a lot like you are punishing people for buying used units. I understand that you have probably lost money on the units you describe BUT we are not talking cars here that have a title with them. You can purchase a gun, in most states, without any proof of ownership, why should I or anyone else buying a used piece of dog training equipment have to do a background check to see where it came from? You are laying a lot on a potential customers head. I am sure you would rather have them buy new units, but there are a lot of people who simply cannot afford them and have no other option than to buy used. I be the used buyers will use your services and maybe, down the road, will purchase new units when they can afford them.
> I have posed the question a number of times now, what if the unit has been sold several times? What if I am at a dog event and someone has a few units for sale and I pay cash for them with no clue, really, as to who the person selling them is?
> Since you are now aware of the problems, non-returned or stolen, and they should no longer be happening, why not just bite the bullet and repair a used unit regardless of who now ?owns? them? If someone has bought a set of BB?s and they did turn out to be one of the above mentioned units, what are you going to do about them? Ask for them back? Start legal action? Create more dissatisfaction? :roll:
Click to expand...

You all are making way to much of a compaines attempt to track product. I bought a used BB 2 years ago. Needed help. Called BB and told them about the problem and when asked my name and when I bought it I tiold them. They pulled up the original owner, took my information and put me into the system. 
Now, if they had told me I had bought a unit that had not been paid for and they could not provide me any assistence, the first thing I am going to do is call the SOB of a thief and try to ge tit straightened out. If they don't do the right thing, I would give all of the information to BB and the local law and try to get my money back. Can't hold BB's feet to the fire for what a croked person did.


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## Misty Marsh

Golddogs I understand what you are getting at here, but the fact remains that if you are the poor guy(pardun the pun) who buys this product used for the second, third, or fourth time in 7 years tracking it back to the original purchaser would be almost impossible and something that most people would'nt try doing out of fustration! I think what with as quoted "less than 20 units" out there most people would expect BB to atleast get over the fact the thier original policies led to this problem and sevice all units regardless, make some money, build better customer relations, and stop penalizing the new customer. It's not like they are going to make back a bunch of money with this policy, but rather loose money and customers over 20 units they had hand in loosing 7 years ago? This just seems like a loosing policy for everyone!


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## Golddogs

Misty Marsh Labradors said:


> Golddogs I understand what you are getting at here, but the fact remains that if you are the poor guy(pardun the pun) who buys this product used for the second, third, or fourth time in 7 years tracking it back to the original purchaser would be almost impossible and something that most people would'nt try doing out of fustration! I think what with as quoted "less than 20 units" out there most people would expect BB to atleast get over the fact the thier original policies led to this problem and sevice all units regardless, make some money, build better customer relations, and stop penalizing the new customer. It's not like they are going to make back a bunch of money with this policy, but rather loose money and customers over 20 units they had hand in loosing 7 years ago? This just seems like a loosing policy for everyone!


Granted there is a limit as to how far a person can go back. And I would think BB would understand that also. Re-reading the original post, He has lost the persons name he bought from and that is one of the problems. i would also suspect that after a 3rd or 4th owner, quite a bit of work may need to be done and BB would make $ off the service.
Maybe the answer is asking more questions of the seller prior to any online purchase. Pretty easy to check some claims out. I hope all works out for all parties.


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## djansma

I have a 4 shooter and love it and yes I did buy it new but through lion country even though it was dropped shipped from bumper boy and I have had a few problems and the help I got from Amy and others was GREAT they helped better than most companies. So as far as my dealings with bumperboy I can give nothing but Kudo's!!!

David Jansma


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## Misty Marsh

Just don't buy a used one!


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## KC Steve

I will chime in now as I have finally read thru all of the thread. 

I purchased a new BB 4-shooter and subsequnetly a used 4 shooter (From Mike Peters) when I purchased the unit from Mike he sent the unit and all paperwork with it (oriiganl invoice). I had to have an up[agrade done to the electronics to make it work with my newer unit electronics and had NO problems with BB and it was done without charge.

Maybe becasue I had all my paperwork in line, maybe not, but in the 3 years I have used this product (new and used) I have good service (albeit, in the early years slow) from Tom, Aaron and Amy.

I won't get into the fray of "original products (plastic vs metal) as I see the issues but doubt seriously that a unit has traded hands 5,6 or 7 times (even 4 would be a stretch). I am sure Tom and BB will be reasonable and work thru any issues which come up, such as non-pedigreed units.

Best of Luck.

Steve


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## badbullgator

> purchased a new BB 4-shooter and subsequnetly a used 4 shooter (From Mike Peters) when I purchased the unit from Mike he sent the unit and all paperwork with it (oriiganl invoice). I had to have an up[agrade done to the electronics to make it work with my newer unit electronics and had NO problems with BB and it was done without charge.


Because you had the paperwork. I doubt very seriously that I have the bill of sale for ANY of my units. Why would I keep them after the warranty is out? That said, I am sure I am in BB's system, but how is someone three buyers down the road going to know where they came from?

BTW- if you had even remotely good service from Aaron you were one of the few. Aaron was one heck of a nice guy, but totally impotent at getting anything done. Tom yes, Amy....most of the time if you bought new apparently. 

I don't think anyone here is really complaining about the quality of service when it is done, I believe the complaints come from BB's policy on repairing units bought second hand and without proof of purchase.


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## brian breuer

I have two derby doubles. I have been happy with them. I have been looking to add on. I have called ads for used units on here and WRC. I would have no way of knowing or caring who or how the guy got them. THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. Let BB do their own detective work. 

I look at these units about like a shotgun. Similiar in price. I've bought guns for cash that have changed hands at least 3 times that I know of and maybe more that I don't know about. I've had to send guns back into the manufacturer for work. Never had problem with them asking for paperwork. 

Guess I'll look at those new Gunner's Up little wingers.


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## badbullgator

> Guess I'll look at those new Gunner's Up little wingers


You will be glad you did. Again nothing wrong with BB's product though


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## jeff t.

Tom Lalor - Bumper Boy said:


> ? Stolen Units: (units without proof of purchase, valid bill of sale, or a non registered user) Any equipment is not the property of a buyer until full payment is made and title is transferred. This is standard with all companies and all equipment. (Cars, computers, furniture, etc.)



I've sent sent second-hand blank pistols to H&R for repair no documentation requested whatsoever..repairs completed just fine.

What about binoculars...Not long ago I bought a pair of Bushnell binocs that needed service...sent them to Bushnell and they fixed them based on their standard charges. No bill of sale requested.

Bought a Kawasaki Mule on ebay...took it to my local dealer for maintenance...no bill of sale requested. They were happy to take my $$ for the service.

So, it appears that your contention that your policy is standard for all companies and all equipment is inaccurate...unless I misunderstood.

I don't understand why Bumper Boy should be different from the above examples.


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## KC Steve

> Why would I keep them after the warranty is out?



I guess I am in a minority that I always keep paperwork, simple file called Bumperboy and stick it in there, helps me know what I paid, when service was done, what I paid for service, etc.

Not saying I agree with BB policy, as I agree with most that it should not be an issue.

Regards,

Steve


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## badbullgator

> I guess I am in a minority that I always keep paperwork, simple file called Bumperboy and stick it in there, helps me know what I paid, when service was done, what I paid for service, etc.


Your record keeping is far better than mine. One note, I have never been asked for the BB paperwork when getting service, it may be that I am in the system I guess.


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## clipper

I won mine in a raffle. I am probably not in the system so now i am wondering.


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## Guest

The following may help you understand the policy, which was mainly set up to protect our customers from theft! As well as our dealers and ourselves. Just today a customer, Chris Walleck, called to report 3 of his 8 shooters were stolen. These units will not be serviced in the future. So why steal them? Nobody else can fix them! 

We are using serial numbers in our electronics but it still does not protect the buyer of used equipment. What you must have is a valid bill of sale in which there are no leans on the equipment. Bumper Boy logs all stolen equipment and asks for a name to verify original users. This protects our clients.

This problem is the same for cars, stereos, and other equipment. Serial numbers locate original user, or original user name locates the serial number. Serial numbers or not, we have always maintained records of every sale. We simply need a name and we can look up when that unit was purchased. We keep these records to simplify service. When a customer calls in and tell us their name, we are able to see what they bought, when they bought it, and what service has been done to it in the past. 

We ask for the original user?s name so we can track the equipment to make sure it is free of leans and the equipment is not reported stolen. It is not necessary to have the invoice since we have all invoices on file. This is the same type of system used in car registration; it assures the new buyer that the car is free of leans. There are lots of companies that do not offer this type of service, Bumper Boy does, at no additional charge.

If the seller of equipment provides you with a bill of sale, than it should be free of leans. However, it?s best to check with the manufacture if they offer this type. This assures you of ownership on very expensive equipment. 

In general, this is a very small problem, mainly due to this policy and that most people are honest people. However, it can happen a few ways

?	Stolen equipment from user, dealer or manufacture
?	Upgraded program ? The old units not returned. These units are not the property of the users, but the property of Bumper Boy. In most cases collection agency?s are already involved.

We believe that the policy we have in place is of great benefit to our users and is a deterrent to theft of expensive equipment. But there is no easy way to administer it; cars registration is a prime example.

We recommend that all people considering used equipment check with us first, as it only takes a minute for us to look up the name and for the most part, units are legitimate. Even if units have changed hands more than once, there is a good chance that the second owner bought some repair parts or accessories and we will have them in our system along with the name of the person they bought it from.

Raffle units are no problem because we have records of the events we donate equipment to. Simply give us the name of the event and we will create an account for you.

If you have any other suggestions please let us know. In addition, we have not been contacted personally at all about this thread. It is hard for us to solve our customers problems if they do not contact us with them. Please if any user is having any problems, I am always available to solve issues or design new equipment for you.



Regards, Tom Lalor


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## jeff t.

I'm glad that other dog training equipment manufacturers don't have a policy like this. Much of my equipment was purchased used right here on RTF.

No bill of sale, no records whatsoever. Never had a problem getting anything fixed. 

I also have no paperwork for the equipment I purchased new.

I'm glad that Bumper Boy is a special case...Thankfully I've stayed away from them thus far because their electronics are not compatible with my other equipment.

Jeff


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## badbullgator

> We believe that the policy we have in place is of great benefit to our users and is a deterrent to theft of expensive equipment. But there is no easy way to administer it; cars registration is a prime example.
> 
> We recommend that all people considering used equipment check with us first, as it only takes a minute for us to look up the name and for the most part, units are legitimate. Even if units have changed hands more than once, there is a good chance that the second owner bought some repair parts or accessories and we will have them in our system along with the name of the person they bought it from.
> 
> Raffle units are no problem because we have records of the events we donate equipment to. Simply give us the name of the event and we will create an account for you.


Tom
While I think your effort is commendable to ?protect? your customers, I still think it is hard on those who have in the past bought used units. I really think BB is more looking out for BB, but that is OK too as long as your willing to accept that criticism will still follow with such a policy.
I doubt that all raffled units were donated just by bumper boy and not from individuals, but that is simply nit picking. You do not say what your policy is if a unit is sent in for service by someone who did buy a used unit and unknown to them it was stolen or not paid for. Are these guys, because they were trusting, just SOL??


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## Vicky Trainor

Maybe I am missing something, but the BB policy seems to be saying "Don't buy used equipment". As a consumer who likes to save money on used or sales, there are many times I will go to eBay, auctions, yard sales, or the classifieds.

BB is saying don't buy without calling us first....that won't help if the potential buyer is not near the phone or BB is closed for the day/weekend. 

Tom stated that their policy was "mainly set up to protect our customers from theft". He also asks "So why steal them?" The answer: the THIEF doesn't know that BB has this policy! All this policy does is hurt the unsuspecting buyer. 

Used dog training equipment being offered for sale is a common occurrence. Granted, most of the time, the seller is known somewhere within the retriever community, but not always....just look at the amount of sales on eBay.

Vicky


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## Paula H

In defense of Bumper Boy - I just asked them about my unit and told them who I'd bought it from. No problem - they put me in the system and had the unit registered.


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## Guest

Truth be told there has only been a couple customers that have run across this issue and we have solved it for them. The starter of this thread is the only customer we know of that has an outstanding problem. And unless he contacts me, I can't help him. 

The vast majority of used units are legitimate units. It's only a few of the units from seven years ago that may be an issue. And it's simply solved by contacting us before you make the purchase. If the seller is legitimate, they should have no problem with holding the sale for you why you place a call to us to verify.

Tom Lalor


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## Golddogs

Tom Lalor - Bumper Boy said:


> Truth be told there has only been a couple customers that have run across this issue and we have solved it for them. The starter of this thread is the only customer we know of that has an outstanding problem. And unless he contacts me, I can't help him.
> 
> The vast majority of used units are legitimate units. It's only a few of the units from seven years ago that may be an issue. And it's simply solved by contacting us before you make the purchase. If the seller is legitimate, they should have no problem with holding the sale for you why you place a call to us to verify.
> 
> Tom Lalor


As someone who has been victim of a major thieft, several thousand dollars of tools, I would have loved to have had a way to track down my stuff when it had to be serviced. i could care less if the guy who bought it ended up losing out simply because he/she was too lazy to make a call, if that is all it would take to assure the goods were not HOT. 

Nowhere has BB said it was against any of us buying used. I have and had no trouble getting my name in the system. It was a phone call. I think we all are better off with this system. 

And in this day and age, anyone not having or keeping some sort of record is foolish.


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## dixidawg

I'm still confused....and must be missing something here.....

You say you are using serial numbers. Why can't you track units via the serial number? Buyer x reports it stolen. You flag the serial number in your database as stolen. New owner attempts to get service on unit years later. You find it was stolen because you had flagged the serial number....

Seems to accomplish the same ends, but places NO onus on buyers of used equipment.


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## lablover

I'm confused too. There are no serial numbers on my units.


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## brian breuer

Hey RTF:

Does anyone out there have 4 shooters? Let Mike use your name as the seller so he can get his fixed. The old ones don't have serial numbers so they have no way of knowing. I would let him use my name and had that all typed up until I looked and saw he bought 4 shooters and I only have the doubles. If you need yours serviced, just say that you bought them back from Mike. AS there is no title and no serial number this shouldn't be a problem. 

There are ways around stupid policies regards,

Brian Breuer


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## djansma

he said the serial numbers are on the inside of the electronics such as a number on the board and for the most part the electronics should not be opened by the consumer I again have had no problem with bumper boy and feel there products make my dogs better

I do not know how many people have had problems like this but I do think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt since he has chose to enter the 
thread to give answers to the questions posed

David Jansma


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## lovesthelabs

dixidawg said:


> I'm still confused....and must be missing something here.....
> 
> You say you are using serial numbers. Why can't you track units via the serial number? Buyer x reports it stolen. You flag the serial number in your database as stolen. New owner attempts to get service on unit years later. You find it was stolen because you had flagged the serial number....
> 
> Seems to accomplish the same ends, but places NO onus on buyers of used equipment.


Isn't that the same thing as knowing the name of the person you bought it from? You still have to call in and give them the serial number to look up.


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## dixidawg

No, not at all. I may or may not know who _*I*_ bought it from. That person may or may not know who who _*HE*_ bought it from. And so on..

If I am the last purchaser of the unit, all I should need to know is the serial number.


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## fcafcblue

It seems all this BB talk is going no where. I will just put the Remote Bumper Launchers in my truck and go train.
Good Luck Training.
John :lol:


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## lovesthelabs

Agreed. This is going no where. Tom said that the poster hasn't even called him after all this. If that is true then he must have posted here just to cause a stir. 

In the end it is a great product that has helped me out a lot as well as my training group. Until I have an issue with them, I'm not worried. I know my name is in their system.


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## Steve Hester

I still have a problem with Bumper Boy's policies as described by Tom. Comparing his product to a car is a little egotistical, do't ya think? There is no "title" on a Bumper Boy. There is no "lean" on the Bumper Boys either, although there may or may not be a "lien". It is clear to me that Bumper Boy had very poor internal controls that caused them to never get paid on their units. That should not be the problem of 2nd, 3rd, or 4th buyers of the units. And their "protection" offered to owners of the units is a joke!!! A thief could care less that Bumper Boy won't service that unit in the future. The only person hurt in that instance is the unsuspecting buyer of stolen used equipment. Another company WILL come along with a comparable product, sooner or later. And if they don't have the narrow-minded policies of Bumper Boy, they will eat your lunch, competitively speaking.


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