# question about positive training



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

So as not to hijack the "interesting article" thread, here's a new thread.
The question is specific to my dog. I truly am curious how the "purely positive" trainers would have trained him.
Background...golden retriever. Never saw a bumper or bird until he was 3 years old.
At that time, when we began field training, he was already trained/shown at a high level of competitive obedience (UDX). He was trained "mostly positive" for obedience. Never wore a prong collar let alone e-collar, never force fetched, relied on quite a few treats, praise, etc. Very sound on basic (and advanced) obedience commands. 
Now we begin field training, and I see a side of my dog that I never knew existed as soon as the birds come out. Remember, he was already 3+ at this time.
When there are live birds around, I might as well not exist. If I try to give him a treat, no matter how "high value" the treat is, I will have to shove it in his mouth to get him to take it, and then he will literally spit it out and remain focused on the birds. 
If I attempt to pet/praise him, he will literally shake my hand off his head or body, and remain focused on the birds.
If he flushed a bird, and the shot was missed, he would take off after the bird full speed ahead and, as I said, I might as well not even exist let alone turn him back. 

So my question....to the "purely positive" (or maybe even "mostly positive") trainers....how would you train this dog to stop, and come back?

(BIG NOTE---WE HAVE SINCE FIXED THIS PROBLEM WITH THE E-COLLAR and he is steady to wing and shot now...this is a curiosity question, not looking to fix the problem).


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Barb...you are a very naughty girl....WE HAVE SINCE FIXED THIS PROBLEM WITH THE E-COLLAR ...... Just my humble opinion. Duckdon


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

I think the answer is to make sure he is steady before adding live birds into the equation. I have a golden who does the same thing ( spit out treats, why are you petting me? looks). That tells me that those rewards are not high value enough, which is good,it is a retriever after all. Its highest value reward should be a retrieve. This is where the chuckit and the tennis ball has become my best friend. I first started with good heeling, that led to a retrieve. Then let the dog work out in front and when i whistle he stops, looks at me and gets a retrieve. Then shorten the whistle and the throw sequence so eventually the dog stops when he sees something he can retrieve without hearing a whistle. Basically the dog is brainwashed into thinking that there is an imaginary door for a retrieve that only opens when i tell him "get out". I would use a check cord for some of this work(so it is not purely positive), so that breaking never ends up in a retrieve. 

So that is how i would go about it, but i am by no means a trainer. Just a guy with a couple dogs that enjoys problem solving.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

DuckDon, yep, he scared the bejeezes out of me a couple of times, almost got killed once, and I needed a relatively quick fix. It worked. 

To Mudminnow....Thanks for the well thought out reply. He was steady. Very. Until he started flushing live birds. I was absolutely floored when he took off the first time. 



Don Lietzau said:


> Barb...you are a very naughty girl....WE HAVE SINCE FIXED THIS PROBLEM WITH THE E-COLLAR ...... Just my humble opinion. Duckdon


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

A view from afar' from a trainer that is neither Purely Positive or E-collar ,and had many dogs similar to what you describe (in fact almost every client that wants a gundog in the field)
If the answer you seek , is a positive alternative to what you have already achieved?, I can offer one common suggestion that has worked for some ,not all?
.....
The dog in question being highly focussed on the bird/game? obviously has no immediate desire for anything else ,So in this situation (if the dog has learned 'Hold') I stick a bird in it's gob as the live bird flushes !, when it is out of sight, I release the dog from it's ''prize'' ,and reward !
...
I would add, that an early stimulated conditioning process of the 'stop whistle' is also of immense help


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks Polmaise, it's an interesting thought how he might react if he already had a bird in his mouth. Something I surely would not have thought of. We have done "bird in mouth" single marks with him, but it was to work on memory, not steadiness in an actual hunting situation.
I sure can't disagree about early conditioning with the stop whistle, but I was starting with a dog that was already 3.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

were is Miss Molly MiniVan going to get a bird, 
to put in Poofie's mouth 
afore they walk down the city bike path and flush a bunny?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> were is Miss Molly MiniVan going to get a bird,
> to put in Poofie's mouth
> afore they walk down the city bike path and flush a bunny?


I was wondering how I was gonna get in there with my dog, thorns and all, but I realize you can set up a training scenario to teach this to the dog. But still I'm thinking I'm gonna have to grab the dog by the collar and stuff the bird in its mouth, and try and convince it that holding a bird is more fun than chasing one.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I wouldn't expect Tito to be able to do it. My own trainer points out that purely positive dogs may do well in obedience but when they start to do something like field they have a problem. He is currently working with someone who has a field lab that was trained purely positively but now needs to use the rest of the OC learning model.


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

Definitely being able to teach steadiness/ whistle stop younger helps i think/assume because food is higher reward than retrieves for puppies (at least in my cases). In your question though you have a three year old dog and don't have that advantage. One common thing i see in these threads are folks asking a question of how do you fix this problem. The first and common response is " has the dog been properly force fetched, or the dog was not properly force fetched" because it is the base of the rest of the training. Ususally it is suggested to go back and revisit FF and work up to the point where the problem was. I think one could answer your question with the same but different response of "has the dog been properly steadiness trained". The dog was steady for you in every previous temptation but the jump was too great from wherever he was steady to a flushing bird. Finding a connection in the temptation flow chart is an important part of more positive training. So if the dog was steady with birds flying close then maybe go to a park throw some bread out to get some ducks or pigeons close and tell some kid to run through them or something like that. If i was in your situation i would have tried to find a bridge in the distraction ladder, or maybe i would have got fed up and CC'd my dog


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Hey, I don't drive a loser cruiser  !




Ken Bora said:


> were is Miss Molly MiniVan going to get a bird,
> to put in Poofie's mouth
> afore they walk down the city bike path and flush a bunny?


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. It's interesting to see and learn from other perspectives.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Not an expert, but I would approach it with de-sentitazation first. 

Get a live bird or two, wrap it so it can't fly. Take dog, the bird and a helper to the garage. Have dog on lead, helper releases bird onto the floor. Dog watches bird, you restrain him and get him to a calm state. Over a few short sessions build up to dog being able to sit still calmly while bird or birds are running around or put in dog's face. If you're a clicker trainer, you can click and treat when dog is showing restraint, but you don't need to do that. Then move the operation to the outdoor in a fenced enclosure, then move to the field (with your own live bird and helper).

Had to do this with my 6 yr old Springer/Lab mix when we adopted a teenage kitten. She wanted to eat that kitten, the kitten was old enough to run, so I knew it was a disaster waiting to happen. Took two days to de-sentsitize her to the kitten with nothing more than a firm "nooo" or "leave it". 

Also did this procedure with my older golden when he was 2 with live pigeons. He will still happily fetch a live rooster pheasant and live ducks when the occasion calls for it. But at least he's not a crazy maniac who breaks at the site of live birds.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Jennifer, how is restraining a dog with a leash "purely positive"?


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Any minute now, someone will be along that has trained a dog beyond the SH level using purely positive methods. And they will be able to tell you how they did it.

Any minute now..............................

























































































Still waiting?


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree, he apparently wasn't nearly as steady as I thought he was. 
But I come back to the same question....the dog is not motivated by food nor praise when there are live birds. So how would you get him steady, using positive reinforcement, for birds flying close? And then if he breaks, what would you do? 
I do really appreciate your replies. The parallel between "has he been properly force fetched" and finding a connection in the temptation flow chart is very interesting.



mudminnow said:


> Definitely being able to teach steadiness/ whistle stop younger helps i think/assume because food is higher reward than retrieves for puppies (at least in my cases). In your question though you have a three year old dog and don't have that advantage. One common thing i see in these threads are folks asking a question of how do you fix this problem. The first and common response is " has the dog been properly force fetched, or the dog was not properly force fetched" because it is the base of the rest of the training. Ususally it is suggested to go back and revisit FF and work up to the point where the problem was. I think one could answer your question with the same but different response of "has the dog been properly steadiness trained". The dog was steady for you in every previous temptation but the jump was too great from wherever he was steady to a flushing bird. Finding a connection in the temptation flow chart is an important part of more positive training. So if the dog was steady with birds flying close then maybe go to a park throw some bread out to get some ducks or pigeons close and tell some kid to run through them or something like that. If i was in your situation i would have tried to find a bridge in the distraction ladder, or maybe i would have got fed up and CC'd my dog


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

So......you have a dog with big tyme prey drive, doing an upland set up and he gets a running flush.
Are you saying to run him down and put a bird in his mouth will make him sit??

That's what I have been doing wrong!!!


THANKS!!!!!










BTW--This one time, at an UH test, it took 8 freakin' birds to get one he didn't catch, 8!!!!

He even beat the launcher!!!!!!
Had both front paws on it before they could get it launched!


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks Jennifer. Having a live bird in an enclosed area makes sense in getting him steady. I tend to not think in terms of "baby steps" like that, so it's helpful to see it broken down into smaller pieces. Same question comes to mind, though. If he keeps breaking, what would you do? I know the usual response is back up further in steadiness training, but he doesn't break for anything but live birds that he, himself, has flushed. 
Again for anyone just joining in, I'm not trying to fix a problem with my CC'd dog, just curious how others would have approached it and learning from their experiences. 
Road Kill, I think the bird in mouth idea is for a training set-up. Good Lord, I don't think Polmaise was suggesting I take the boy upland hunting with a bird hanging out of his mouth. And unfortunately, he's pretty good at catching the birds as they flush, too, which is very self-rewarding.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Jennifer. Having a live bird in an enclosed area makes sense in getting him steady. I tend to not think in terms of "baby steps" like that, so it's helpful to see it broken down into smaller pieces.
> Again for anyone just joining in, I'm not trying to fix a problem with my CC'd dog, just curious how others would have approached it and learning from their experiences.
> Road Kill, I think the bird in mouth idea is for a training set-up. Good Lord, I don't think Polmaise was suggesting I take the boy upland hunting with a bird hanging out of his mouth.


I didn't mean my post to sound like a smart azz, I kind of meant it as a compliment to your dogs prey drive (which I love in a dog).
I don't think you can condition them to sit on the flush or whistle without "compulsion" or "encouragement" to do so.
I am certain I couldn't with my dog.

It's still iffy on a moving flush!!

Are you going to run HRC upland tests?
If so, awesome time!!

If not, I dare you to!!!!
Find out how well proofed your steady to flush is.

It is an absolute BLAST!!!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks, he does have huge prey drive. We had several real "come to Jesus" meetings between me, him, the e-collar and some live birds to get him where he will stop at the whistle on a flush. I love the prey drive, too. 
I do plan to run HRC upland with him. I was going to enter KKK's tests Feb. 9 and 10, but it conflicts with a big agility trial weekend and we are trying to finish his 2 master agility titles. So it will have to wait a while. If you know of any tests nearby later in the year (not the ones end of Feb. in Southern IL) let me know! While he is steady to flush at the hunt club with chukkars, pheasants, and homing pigeons the excitement of a test environment adds another whole dimension to it!



road kill said:


> I didn't mean my post to sound like a smart azz, I kind of meant it as a compliment to your dogs prey drive (which I love in a dog).
> I don't think you can condition them to sit on the flush or whistle without "compulsion" or "encouragement" to do so.
> I am certain I couldn't with my dog.
> 
> ...


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> I agree, he apparently wasn't nearly as steady as I thought he was.
> But I come back to the same question....the dog is not motivated by food nor praise when there are live birds. So how would you get him steady, using positive reinforcement, for birds flying close? And then if he breaks, what would you do?
> I do really appreciate your replies. The parallel between "has he been properly force fetched" and finding a connection in the temptation flow chart is very interesting.


ANd like i said i am by no means an expert, i just like to try and solve problems...

I think where you are going here is gettin to the point where folks that say they only do positive reinforcement run into a wall. I would as i said earlier use a check cord that i could step on so the dog could not break. I realize though that at 6'5'' 240 i can stop alot more dog than most ( i speak from experience being married to a 5'2'' 110 wife, telling here to step on the check cord=me sleeping with the dogs that night). That is not purely positive. Also with birds flying around, the dog would be on a lead and when he is not steady, i would remove hime from the situation.

example: bread and ducks at a park. Make dog stay at heel, if he pulls or breaks turn around. The reward is being close to the warm feathery things. The dog learns to buy the reward by staying at heel and being steady. 

I won't have a dog that will be a MH, and thats fine. I am not really sold on those tests being the basis of breeding. I think it shows tremendous trainability of a dog to reach that level which is amazing. It just doesn't spark my engine. If I as a husband, father, dentist, flyfisher, and duck misser can train a dog for 5-15 minutes for three times a week and have a dog that is steady and able to perform blind retrieves out to 90 or so yards, i am happy.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

mitty said:


> Jennifer, how is restraining a dog with a leash "purely positive"?


Barb said "or Mostly Positive", so that's where I'm coming from. Among the positive training crowd, there is an acronym: LIMA = Least Intensive Minimally Aversive. Most, if not all pos trainers use a leash. I use "No" and "Leave it". But mainly I train the behavior I want to happen by using baby steps and clearly defining the goal for the dog, then I add the word/command to that trained behavior. After that, if dog is making the wrong decision or needs to be warned not to kill the kitty, I use "no" etc. 

As for skunks and porcupines, I live in very rural California, I walk my 3 dogs off leash in the wild every day and we encounter porcupines and skunks and deer and wild cats regularly. My 2 Goldens, who I trained well, can be no'd off them with out a problem. It happens at least once a week. The 9 yr old Berner was not well trained and did get porcupined two years ago.

Edit: I have to know the skunk or Porc is there to prevent an incident. If it's dark or the porc is deep in a bush and I don't realize what the dogs are after, I'm screwed.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Mudminnow, I don't believe there is any such thing as purely positive training but I didn't want this to turn into that dispute. It's why I said "or mostly positive". I am just looking for other opinions, other ways of doing things which I can then adapt and use in accordance with my own beliefs and training methods.
For example, bread and ducks at a park. No reason at all I can't do the exact same thing with my dog on an e-collar instead of a leash. Either way, it's a good idea of someplace to go work him quickly and easily. 
I learn a lot from others, whether or not I agree with them.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

See Jennifer, I think that's a problem that I have in my training. I love immediate gratification. It's hard for me to break down things into baby-steps (which is why I learn under an excellent pro rather than trying to do it on my own!). I want my dog to just go out and DO it. He did in obedience, he did in agility. Field introduces a whole new set of issues and it's very new to me. But it's a blast!


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> were is Miss Molly MiniVan going to get a bird,
> to put in Poofie's mouth
> afore they walk down the city bike path and flush a bunny?


Tsk, tsk......tee hee....


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

No prob, i wasn't criticizing you , i was just being honest with the fact that i can't do everything with only PR, and thats where i run into the wall.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

I think most good "non-positive" trainers believe that, too. If a little "nick" is going to do the job, I'm not going to blast his head off.



Jennifer Henion said:


> there is an acronym: LIMA = Least Intensive Minimally Aversive.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> DuckDon, yep, he scared the bejeezes out of me a couple of times, almost got killed once, and I needed a relatively quick fix. It worked.
> 
> To Mudminnow....Thanks for the well thought out reply. He was steady. Very. Until he started flushing live birds. I was absolutely floored when he took off the first time.


hotel4dogs, animals have what is called "instinctive drift." No matter how much a behavior is trained, there is always the possibility that the prey drive, the instiinct, may be stronger than the trained behavior.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

gdgnyc, I had to google that and read about it, and I totally get it. It's what we're up against with these guys with big prey drive.

http://www.intropsych.com/ch08_animals/instinctive_drift.html

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/drift.htm


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I agree. After all, the instinct is what has developed for survival. Trained behaviors by us was not part of the equation.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

How is this "purely positive" for the birds?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Barb I am not opposed to the use of the collar just your application to correct your dog's issue. I sent you a pm. If I had been at the stage you were with your dog and wanted to train I would use Lori Jolly method first to get the dog to retrieve correctly! Then if you felt the dog understood you could move on to Lardy's CC program. I did mention in my pm Lardy has some excellent reading in his booklet that comes with the DVDs on training before CC. Good luck.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

They are positive that they'd better get high up fast or they are positively going to get caught 



EricW said:


> How is this "purely positive" for the birds?


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

LOL. Wild birds are good at that.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Are there clicker/positive based rattlesnake avoidance classes?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Are there clicker/positive based rattlesnake avoidance classes?


Bet you could do it. Luckily we don't have those where I live or hunt.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Barb, you could absolutely get it done with a purely positive method. Not sure how reliable it would be without the ability to make a correction but you absolutely could teach an auto sit response every time he sees a bird he wants to retrieve. If I wanted to do this:

I would start out playing "two toy" to get him dropping things on command. Then I would lure into a sit position with a bird just like a treat, and roll the bird as a reward. I would keep doing this until he sat at the site/smell of a bird in my hand. I would then get between the dog and the bird and block/keep him in sit until I released him. I would build distance on this until I was a few feet from him and he would sit until released. I would then bring in another person and I would probably go to a flat buckle collar and lead. Have the person tease a little with the bird with the dog standing. The dog should sit, at which point they would throw and you would release. Patience is key. You have to wait silently for the offered behavior before you reward. I would say nothing throughout this process. Let him learn to sit before he get released each and every time. 

It's purely positive until you get to the point where some restraint MAY be required. If you did it thoroughly enough you may never need it or only one or two times. 

Obviously you progress the level of drive and excitement in small increments, from almost nothing (static bird in hand) all the way to shot fliers.

I have a puppy right now at 8.5 mos old that will, if she's standing, sit at the sight of a thrown bumper, focus and wait for release. I trained this behavior pretty much like I outlined above (I'm clearly not done yet). 

I have trained a bunch of Goldens from 6 mos to 3 years old recently and one common thread in all of them has been that they will offer a behavior to earn a reward very readily. One with higher drive is most prone to doing this. I've had dogs sit, lay down, roll over, give paw and bark, all in sequence, trying to get the treat I'm holding. It's this kind of problem solving you leverage to work a strategy like I outlined.

Would I do this with a three year old dog? HECK NO. I would do what you did rather than spend 2 months creating a behavior that will only be somewhat reliable in the field with a running flush. I'll go out on a flaming limb and admit that I believe there is a place for a certain amount of fairly applied correction in each and every dog training program. Re-enforcing a stationary command in a high drive situation is certainly a fair and reasonable place to employ it. Especially since sitting steady to shot and flush might save the dog from being accidentally shot.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> Barb, you could absolutely get it done with a purely positive method. Not sure how reliable it would be without the ability to make a correction but you absolutely could teach an auto sit response every time he sees a bird he wants to retrieve. If I wanted to do this:
> 
> I would start out playing "two toy" to get him dropping things on command. Then I would lure into a sit position with a bird just like a treat, and roll the bird as a reward. I would keep doing this until he sat at the site/smell of a bird in my hand. I would then get between the dog and the bird and block/keep him in sit until I released him. I would build distance on this until I was a few feet from him and he would sit until released. I would then bring in another person and I would probably go to a flat buckle collar and lead. Have the person tease a little with the bird with the dog standing. The dog should sit, at which point they would throw and you would release. Patience is key. You have to wait silently for the offered behavior before you reward. I would say nothing throughout this process. Let him learn to sit before he get released each and every time.
> 
> ...


Pointer training books follow more or less the same routine for puppies depending upon which trainers book you just picked up.


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## duckheads (Dec 31, 2004)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks, he does have huge prey drive. We had several real "come to Jesus" meetings between me, him, the e-collar and some live birds to get him where he will stop at the whistle on a flush. I love the prey drive, too.
> I do plan to run HRC upland with him. I was going to enter *KKK'*s tests Feb. 9 and 10, but it conflicts with a big agility trial weekend and we are trying to finish his 2 master agility titles. So it will have to wait a while. If you know of any tests nearby later in the year (not the ones end of Feb. in Southern IL) let me know! While he is steady to flush at the hunt club with chukkars, pheasants, and homing pigeons the excitement of a test environment adds another whole dimension to it!


Just so no one gets confused, it's KRHRC not the KKK that will be putting on the test on Feb 9 and 10. LOL!

Plenty of openings still. 

Sorry I couldn't pass up the opportunity to promote our hunt since I am the hunt chairman!

Hope to see some RTF'rs there!


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

duckheads said:


> Just so no one gets confused, it's KRHRC not the KKK that will be putting on the test on Feb 9 and 10. LOL!
> 
> Plenty of openings still.
> 
> ...


Is it warm there then??

Maybe we will come and hang out and watch.
Since I hunted my pup, instead of giving him treats, it's 50/50 or so on steady to flush!!!;-)


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> I was going to enter KKK's tests Feb. 9 and 10,


GEEZE Barb!! Attending KKK events, using a "shock" collar! What's next - you gonna buy a black lab???


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Barb*, using an e-collar in Wales is unlawful, so I have no choice in that regard, and I enjoy the challenge of remedial training using as much as I can of positive teaching / training / reinforcement. 

*Darrin* has pointed one way forward that looks perfectly feasible; I do something roughly similar in principle but with a UK Spaniel trainers twist. 

My first reaction would be to revisit the OB tasks that were obviously faulty and ill trained, first in the yard then in a couple of other locations, with a big concentration on sitting to the whistle as a drill in itself, and sitting to flush with hand thrown dummies and then dead birds. You can spin / throw a dead pheasant in such a way as to make it really flappy and attractive, right within a yard of the dog. I have access to pens full of pheasant and partridges and do these exercises around them, varying the distance to suit so that there is a slowly increasing or decreasing level of temptation. The reward for good performance is a dummy thrown by hand. After a few good responses I move to the rabbit pen (rabbits running about plus loose domestic fowl) where he'll be at heel to start with, and then questing in the brush piles. I repeat the drills using thrown live pigeons, and move up to a shot pigeon as a reinforcer. This is one of the similarities to *Darrins* approach, the dog offers the right behaviour and gets his reward. 

Once we are good to go, it's pudding and proving time. I can train on game shoots five months of the year, and shoot woodpigeon all year round, so I can give or withhold a retrieve on the real thing depending on how we get on. Apart from this approach I've used all sorts of dodges and wheezes (mostly) successfully, but this is a long enough post as it is.

If I think it's needed in any of the stages, I use a slip lead restraint, often held by a helper. "Aversives" in descending order of frequency might be lead pop, harsh voice, threatening body posture. I've used a scruff shake in the past, but not recently. 

Eug

PS I do own a modern variable power e-collar plus the usual instructional and training DVDs; I could walk over the hill into England and use it lawfully. I choose not to do so.


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## duckheads (Dec 31, 2004)

road kill said:


> *Is it warm there then*??
> 
> Maybe we will come and hang out and watch.
> Since I hunted my pup, instead of giving him treats, it's 50/50 or so on steady to flush!!!;-)


We can only hope! 

If only you would have used treats........oh well maybe next time!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Barb said "or Mostly Positive", so that's where I'm coming from. *Among the positive training crowd, there is an acronym: LIMA = Least Intensive Minimally Aversive. Most, if not all pos trainers use a leash.* I use "No" and "Leave it". But mainly I train the behavior I want to happen by using baby steps and clearly defining the goal for the dog, then I add the word/command to that trained behavior. After that, if dog is making the wrong decision or needs to be warned not to kill the kitty, I use "no" etc.
> 
> As for skunks and porcupines, I live in very rural California, I walk my 3 dogs off leash in the wild every day and we encounter porcupines and skunks and deer and wild cats regularly. My 2 Goldens, who I trained well, can be no'd off them with out a problem. It happens at least once a week. The 9 yr old Berner was not well trained and did get porcupined two years ago.
> 
> Edit: I have to know the skunk or Porc is there to prevent an incident. If it's dark or the porc is deep in a bush and I don't realize what the dogs are after, I'm screwed.


Ok, I didn't get what she meant by "mostly."

But your response has me thinking, why is a leash correction considered minimal but the ecollar is the other extreme? 

I think to myself, would I rather have my neck yanked when I run out of leash, or a nick on low 2? Or even low 3 or 4? How about a tap with the heeling stick?


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## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

What if the leash was not on the dog...but on the bird being thrown by a gunner (use a thin rope or fishing line)? If the dog breaks, the gunner reels in the bird and the dog does not get a retrieve (no reward). Re-heel the dog and try it again until they sit steady to the release by the handler. A second bird could be tossed out by the gunner for the reward/retrieve to avoid the dog running back with a bird on a string that can tangle in their legs.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

If you're sitting in a garage right next to your dog, or standing in the field right next to your dog with an assistant handling the bird for a steadiness drill, the dog's neck is not going to get yanked. Hopefully, one has enough common sense to hold the dog's collar or at least low down on the leash, knowing it will try to jump to the bird. It's a matter of going through the steps to teach the dog what you want, instead of just correcting it with the collar for breaking on a bird. Not to say all those who use an e collar don't teach the steps, too - just following Renee's analogy - which has a false premise.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Jennifer I'm totally confused by myself as well. 

I think the retriever is supposed to be steady before you bring him upland hunting. If he can't sit, then you go back and patch the training.

If I had lots of birds, I would do what some flusher people do to train sit to flush: hide bird, let dog find/flush bird, bird flies away: if dog sits to flush you throw it a bird to retrieve (from your pocket), if it won't sit it doesn't get the reward.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Homing pigeon in launcher. If dog is steady handler bangs and throws shackled bird. If dog moves in on bird pigeon flies away. No shot or reward bird is thrown. 

Old school steadying drill from a fc pointer guy. Posted this about 3 times in the last year. Seems some folks feel like its a new drill?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Homing pigeon in launcher. If dog is steady handler bangs and throws shackled bird. If dog moves in on bird pigeon flies away. No shot or reward bird is thrown.
> 
> Old school steadying drill from a fc pointer guy. Posted this about 3 times in the last year. Seems some folks feel like its a new drill?


Yup except with the (flushing) retriever I think you want it to be steady _after_ it moves in on the bird, not before?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Barb, you could absolutely get it done with a purely positive method. Not sure how reliable it would be without the ability to make a correction but you absolutely could teach an auto sit response every time he sees a bird he wants to retrieve. If I wanted to do this:
> 
> I would start out playing "two toy" to get him dropping things on command. Then I would lure into a sit position with a bird just like a treat, and roll the bird as a reward. I would keep doing this until he sat at the site/smell of a bird in my hand. I would then get between the dog and the bird and block/keep him in sit until I released him. I would build distance on this until I was a few feet from him and he would sit until released. I would then bring in another person and I would probably go to a flat buckle collar and lead. Have the person tease a little with the bird with the dog standing. The dog should sit, at which point they would throw and you would release.* Patience is key.* You have to wait silently for the offered behavior before you reward. I would say nothing throughout this process. Let him learn to sit before he get released each and every time.
> 
> ...


Is this where the bird thrower walks out ,pickups the bird and gets ready to repeat ,if he dog moves ...? Or like putting the food bowl down and the dog moves from the sit position, remove the bowl and repeat until the dog will sit and wait ...? ......What happens after the UNTIL? .....Go get the collar...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Homing pigeon in launcher. If dog is steady handler bangs and throws shackled bird. If dog moves in on bird pigeon flies away. No shot or reward bird is thrown.
> 
> *Old school steadying drill* from a fc pointer guy. Posted this about 3 times in the last year. *Seems some folks feel like its a new drill?*



Wasn't fortunate enough to have a launcher when I was steadying pointing dogs and flushers to wing and shot....Had to learn to dizzy bird and plant them...Just a new generation that missed all the fun before the collar came along.....Steve S


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Are there clicker/positive based rattlesnake avoidance classes?


Don't think it would work!! IMHO You really need to make an impression on your dog about that issue.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

First, That is awsome that he has such drive for birds having never seen them till 3. Did he have hunters/testers in his pedigree?

Not saying pure positive can be accomplished but I did see a definite line in time where training attention and influence changed in my dog and I am sure all dogs. right around 9 months old things changed and i think that is normal, they mature, gain confidence and start to challenege a little more. So some things could have been addressed before then but i doubt all. just too much to train in that short window.

Time is the issue. I think more retriever training could be accomplished with just positive training but it would take much longer. the challenge is the self reinforcing behaviors.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I've enjoyed this thread and gotten some interesting ideas, and things to think about. 
Gdluck, he hasn't got anything at all in his pedigree. Just lots of golden retrievers  . In fact, he's from all show lines, and is a show CH himself. But he wasn't bred to be a show dog, nor sold to me as a show prospect, only as a pet for my daughter. I had no intention of doing anything at all with him other than loving him (hence the late start in field).
He is obsessed with water, and will go to extremes to go in the water rather than around it. From the first time he saw a bird, any bird, including a goose, he picked it up without hesitation. He dives underwater to get ducks who have gone under. He lives for cripples, chasing down a cripple just *might* be better than mating as far as he's concerned. Well, maybe not, LOL, but close.
He's a good dog.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=312516 (3 generation)
http://www.k9data.com/fivegen.asp?ID=312516 (5 generation)


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

LMAO! I got an email from someone who asked me is black dogs were allowed at KKK events. Guess I should avoid the local slang, it stands for KanKaKee!




Jennifer Henion said:


> GEEZE Barb!! Attending KKK events, using a "shock" collar! What's next - you gonna buy a black lab???


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

steve schreiner said:


> Is this where the bird thrower walks out ,pickups the bird and gets ready to repeat ,if he dog moves ...? Or like putting the food bowl down and the dog moves from the sit position, remove the bowl and repeat until the dog will sit and wait ...? ......What happens after the UNTIL? .....Go get the collar...Steve S


Well Steve in this scenario you're right, the reward is withheld. The only reason there's a lead and collar on the dog at all, is to prevent it from beating the assistant to the bird. Also, the collar and lead, if held low and behind the dog, encourages him physically to get back into a sit position. It kinda pulls back and down, this tends to replant the aft end. 

It's really a game of reward/no reward.

Me? I use a lead and pinch collar for this for the most part now. BUT... she has been firmly and consistently corrected with the e-collar for movement from a sit position in other scenarios. I do that a little different than I was taught. Dog moves... collar on... SIT... dog sits.. collar off... so, create an association that movement = collar on and sitting = collar off. Most would have you repeat the command before the collar stim but I think simply creating an association between movement = correction is more effective based on the basic psychology. No problems thus far, so we'll see.

When we get to more challenging field work (up close fliers), I will probably use a pinch and lead here but may need the e-collar to promote the behavior when there is no physical connection between us. She has this habit pretty well ingrained for now, we;ll see what happens when the guns start going off at close distances and correct accordingly. Given the number and consistency of corrections to this point, it shouldn't create an attitude issues. That's been the idea anyhow.. We'll see.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Yes, it seems that's the instinctive drift that GDGNYC mentioned coming into play. It's like the old saying, "one oh sh!t wipes out 100 attaboys". When he does break, and catches the bird (darn those pen raised birds), he has just reinforced 1000 times anything I could possible have done for reinforcement.



gdluck said:


> the challenge is the self reinforcing behaviors.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> ...Had to learn to dizzy bird and plant them...Just a new generation that missed all the fun before the collar came along.....Steve S


And you had to learn just how much to dizzy them...............


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Barb said "or Mostly Positive", so that's where I'm coming from. Among the positive training crowd, there is an acronym: LIMA = Least Intensive Minimally Aversive. Most, if not all pos trainers use a leash. I use "No" and "Leave it". But mainly I train the behavior I want to happen by using baby steps and clearly defining the goal for the dog, then I add the word/command to that trained behavior. After that, if dog is making the wrong decision or needs to be warned not to kill the kitty, I use "no" etc.
> 
> As for skunks and porcupines, I live in very rural California, I walk my 3 dogs off leash in the wild every day and we encounter porcupines and skunks and deer and wild cats regularly. My 2 Goldens, who I trained well, can be no'd off them with out a problem. It happens at least once a week. The 9 yr old Berner was not well trained and did get porcupined two years ago.
> 
> Edit: I have to know the skunk or Porc is there to prevent an incident. If it's dark or the porc is deep in a bush and I don't realize what the dogs are after, I'm screwed.


Jen, Jen, Jen oh Jen. Why do you constantly tempt me to get censored by the mod police with your statements? For real with that edit? I could seriouslly make Angie and the Felony blush with that one, hell prolly Lee too! Pork, bush, and screwed in one paragraph? the temptation is totally killing me.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

This was on an email list that I belong to, and I enjoyed it so much I thought I would share it. 

"....Cesar Milan asked me how I train dogs. I replied with "I train the dog I am training." Cesar did not understand what I meant, and it appears neither do my peers. Recently I have been getting drilled on my training method.... so here it is. 

Training is about getting into your dog´s head, and understanding what motivates him, what make him smile, and what concerns him. Once you have this, you have "IT"; A relationship with your dog. 

Cookies cannot buy this. Something this precious and this complex cannot be purchased with a cookie. 

You should be able to laugh at him for his silly antics, realize when he is trying but misunderstood your words compared with when he completely blows you off because you are not important compared to what is going on. 

You must realize when he is stressed by his environment and needs more help from you, or when he is stressed by his environment and needs to be told to grow up and act like a man. 

You need to be aware when something completely alien might be going on - is he sitting really slow because he hurt himself? 

So the question still remains of "What method do I use." I train the dog I am training. There is no one thing that I can do to create the beautiful relationship that I have with my dogs. I respect dogs for who they are, I believe in their potential, build on their strengths, and chip away at their weaknesses. I build a relationship with them so that they care what I think and try really hard to please me. I truly "train the dog that I am training".

There are no rules for this process to take place. What is necessary for one dog might be detrimental in that moment for another. While in puppy class, I might instantly stop one puppy from dragging his owner, and I might request another owner to allow their puppy to drag them for two more weeks before we stop it. There are no absolute rules when it comes to training dogs. 

Each dog has to be trained by his own criteria, working with what he brings to the table. Every dog has the same goals and directions, but we might get there fifty different ways, depending on the learning ability, emotional need and intelligence of the dog, and always considering the handling abilities and personality of the handler. This is a relationship, between one dog and one human. 

How can you define that with one set of limiting rules, such as positive reinforcement?

Monique Anstee,
Victoria, BC 
......"


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Well Steve in this scenario you're right, the reward is withheld. The only reason there's a lead and collar on the dog at all, is to prevent it from beating the assistant to the bird. Also, the collar and lead, if held low and behind the dog, encourages him physically to get back into a sit position. It kinda pulls back and down, this tends to replant the aft end.
> 
> It's really a game of reward/no reward.
> 
> ...


Self correction or punishment ( on the dogs part ) is better understood than trainer instituted...Dog learns to create a certain behavior on its own ... I do the same thing you are doing ...I add a flush or gun shot with it....Agreed on no attitude issues if proper level is used ...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> This was on an email list that I belong to, and I enjoyed it so much I thought I would share it.
> 
> There are *no rules* for this process to take place. *What is necessary for one dog might be detrimental in that moment for another.* While in puppy class, I might instantly stop one puppy from dragging his owner, and I might request another owner to allow their puppy to drag them for two more weeks *before we stop it.* There are no absolute rules when it comes to training dogs.
> 
> ...


Very good points...I agree that a lot of trainer don't recognize the needs of a particular dog.. Some dogs need to play tug a little and some need it nipped in the but before it becomes a problem...I don't believe you can only use one approach to training dogs....Whales and Dolphins , reward or not....Steve S


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> This was on an email list that I belong to, and I enjoyed it so much I thought I would share it.
> 
> "....Cesar Milan asked me how I train dogs. I replied with "I train the dog I am training." Cesar did not understand what I meant, and it appears neither do my peers. Recently I have been getting drilled on my training method.... so here it is.
> 
> ...


That is so neat, Barb! That's exactly how I feel about it. When she says, "you can't buy that with a cookie" true, but I'd also say "you can't just conquer the dog with system of force" You have to know the dog to make either work best.

Thanks for sharing that. I guess that makes it hard for pros and why they need a system.

kumbaya,
Jen


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim, you're in deep dooty!

Quit watching Bevis and Butthead with your keystone light!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Tim, you're in deep dooty!
> 
> Quit watching Bevis and Butthead with your keystone light!


What do Paul and Bubba have to do with this?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> That is so neat, Barb! That's exactly how I feel about it. When she says, "you can't buy that with a cookie" true, but I'd also say "you can't just conquer the dog with system of force" You have to know the dog to make either work best.
> 
> *Thanks for sharing that. I guess that makes it hard for pros and why they need a system*.
> 
> ...


I think that all depends on how you define a system....To me a system is just a sequence of events that all tie together in an orderly fashion to accomplish a certain goal...The ability to meet the needs of each individual that goes through the system is up to the trainer...Just because some have different needs to accomplish the same objective doesn't mean the system doesn't work ...IE: to help a dog with too soft a mouth a little tug play will help tighten up those jaws.. We use the term "program" to define those events that must take place to produce a well trained retriever....I believe the treat trainer or motivational trainers as some like to call them have a system they follow to teach the dogs... 

"*So the question still remains of "What method do I use." I train the dog I am training." hotel4dogs.*.. I believe most trainer use more than one method ,not all force and not all treats , praise , but a combination of both to teach ....According to Pat Nolan happy bumpers when properly used are none thing more than a reward for a certain behavior executed....Steve S


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> That is so neat, Barb! That's exactly how I feel about it. When she says, "you can't buy that with a cookie" true, but I'd also say "you can't just conquer the dog with system of force" You have to know the dog to make either work best.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that. I guess that makes it hard for pros and why they need a system.
> 
> ...


If you train with an accomplished pro you'll notice that while they have a framework based on solid principals of training, they most certainly customize their training for each and every dog that comes off the truck. They may send certain dogs home. Those who just require something SO time consuming and remedial that they just can't progress them with the rest of the herd may have to go, but there is no one dog who gets trained exactly like the next. The best of the best are the best at reading these differences and coming up with working solutions.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

@ Barb, I have found that I am able to communicate my method to a pet dog owner a bit more clearly than the email you shared. I do stress the individual needs of the dog and owner in my explanation but I have a few guiding principals I communicate. 

1. Dogs need to be taught behaviors, and they need to have those behaviors re-enforced.
2. It's a rare dog and owner combination that can get reliable behavior with a strictly positive method. It can be done, but not by most people with jobs and lives.
3. I always apply the least amount of correction required to create reliability. Amounts and intensity vary widely from dog to dog.
4. A dog shouldn't generally be corrected for a behavior he doesn't know.
5. Using a purely corrective method generally produces a dog that will comply, but won't be happy about it. We want our dogs to be happy!

So... what method do I use? I get asked this a lot. 

I use a combination of reward based training to teach behaviors and corrective training to make them reliable.

That blanket statement seems to apply to every single dog I see. 

Some owners want something different. By being skilled in reward based and corrective training methods, I am able to adapt my program to the needs of the dog, to the satisfaction of the owner, in most cases. There are always some with very willful, brazen, pushy, tough, aggressive dogs who want to avoid correction. For those, I have to advise carefully and respectfully turn down the business. They usually come back later after the positive only trainer fails.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Jennifer Henion said:


> That is so neat, Barb! That's exactly how I feel about it. When she says, "you can't buy that with a cookie" true, but I'd also say "you can't just conquer the dog with system of force" You have to know the dog to make either work best.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that. I guess that makes it hard for pros and why they need a system.
> 
> ...


You can't have spent much time training with a knowledgeable, successful, professional "field" retriever trainer if you're making these kinds of broad generalizations. Watching a real pro work a truckload of retrievers at various levels, reading and adapting to each, both at the line and what is going on out in the field, well, that's an education that can't be duplicated in any other way than being there in person to see it. I bet quite often you'd have a hard time telling when a dog was getting a correction or what the pro is even doing, unless you are standing right next to him/her, it is that quick and that subtle. There is a finesse and an art to a good dog trainer, some are born with an extra special touch, some spend years learning, some never do or even realize what they are missing. Those who think it is a black and white system, or better yet, those who think it is simply a system of force to conquer a dog into submission, don't understand what it takes to make an FC/AFC (and probably not even an upper level HT dog), don't have a clue what it takes to be successful with a wide variety of dogs in such a competitive arena. The advancements in ecollars and in understanding dog behavior have taken retriever training to a pretty sophisticated level and it will always continue to advance, because the nature of the competition demands it. The good trainers continually refine their methods over their careers. Believe me, if using a clicker has any advantage, then it will be in the toolbox along with the ecollar. So yeah, pros have a system vs training willy nilly, but within their own system they are able to make a myriad of adaptions to each dog. System of force to conquer a dog, well, that's a pretty arrogant and damning little phrase to alot of people, from someone who has yet to train or run a retriever beyond a JH.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

So the question still remains of "What method do I use." I train the dog I am training. There is no one thing that I can do to create the beautiful relationship that I have with my dogs. I respect dogs for who they are, I believe in their potential, build on their strengths, and chip away at their weaknesses. I build a relationship with them so that they care what I think and try really hard to please me. I truly "train the dog that I am training".

Nice statement ? but sometimes could lead to a mismash of training techniques which could be difficult especially for the new person. IMO could lead to confusion for the dog. I believe IMHO you need an established program and nothing like having some assistance where you can learn. Reading the dog comes from doing with guidence especially for a new person and will go further I feel.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Mary Lynn, I specifically said pros because that's what Jennifer referenced. But even those noobs using a system, Lardy, etc, have to adapt to their dog. Adaptation doesn't mean hodgpodge training, skipping steps, it means reading the dog and figuring out to communicate the desired response in a manner the dog best understands. It means understanding how to use a system to train a dog, not forcing a dog to fit a specific mold. It means understanding what the desired end result should be before you ever teach a dog to sit. I still hold that very few noobs can learn to train a dog well just from watching a DVD and/or reading a book. They are extremely helpful and I think I've gotten and have watched/read most on the market, along with alot of other dog training stuff. Where I actually learn to apply it is from the pros in the field and working a half dozen of my own at a time, at various levels. Now that is about as humbling as it gets, training more than one dog and realizing there is no mold that fits them all.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rainmaker said:


> ......... System of force to conquer a dog, well, that's a pretty arrogant and damning little phrase to alot of people, from someone who has yet to train or run a retriever beyond a jh.


bazinga!!!!!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Jennifer Henion said:


> That is so neat, Barb! That's exactly how I feel about it. When she says, "you can't buy that with a cookie" true, but I'd also say "you can't just conquer the dog with system of force" You have to know the dog to make either work best.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that. I guess that makes it hard for pros and why they need a system.
> 
> ...


Rainmaker and Ken, the above is what I said. You took my ecollar comment out of context. Not only do *i not* believe most ecollar trainers are trying to "just conquer the dog with a system of force". I also do *NOT *believe clicker trainers are trying to just "buy that with a cookie".

What I was trying to say was that any successful training requires a deeper understanding of the individual dog than just using a clicker/cookie or an ecollar/force. 

My statement about pros was also not meant as a slam against pros. It was meant to point out the obvious: an owner who spends 24/7 with their own dog after raising it from a pup, already knows the quirks of that dog. A pro who didn't raise dog from pup and has to accomplish the phenomenal task of training this dog in a short number of months, has to learn those quirks in the course of training. 

I admire Pros immensely for their ability to achieve what they do. 

Also, no slam against Systems! I use one, too - modified to the needs of me and my dog.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Jennifer Henion said:


> an owner who spends 24/7 with their own dog after raising it from a pup, already knows the quirks of that dog. A pro who didn't raise dog from pup and has to accomplish the phenomenal task of training this dog in a short number of months, has to learn those quirks in the course of training.....


That's really way off.

An experienced trainer will usually have a better read of what's going on inside a dog's head within 5 minutes, than it's owner could in 5 months.

Owners that "get to know" their dog's quirks rather than correcting them, are 100% guilty of anthropomorphism at the highest level. 
And since dogs are not people, that's going to result in reads that are always wrong. Dead wrong.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

and Copter nails it! ^^^^^^ gold nugget of the day^^^^^^


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Had to look that one up.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> ..... the obvious: an owner who spends 24/7 with their own dog after raising it from a pup, already knows the quirks of that dog.



more like...*the obvious is they MADE the quirks!*
dog at home "Oh Poofie will not eat unless fed in her unicorn bowl while I stand on one foot and sing"
dog at pro, metal bowl gets set down, ten min later gets picked up. By 3rd day Poofie will eat out of 
a scoop shovel. obvious? totaly!
own what you condone


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> more like...*the obvious is they MADE the quirks!*
> dog at home "Oh Poofie will not eat unless fed in her unicorn bowl while I stand on one foot and sing"
> dog at pro, metal bowl gets set down, ten min later gets picked up. By 3rd day Poofie will eat out of
> a scoop shovel. obvious? totaly!
> own what you condone


Love it have taken care of a few dogs that the owners thought they would starve, after a few days of no eat they would eat off a flying frisbie. Then the question , how did you get him/her to eat, secret I tell them.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Ken Bora said:


> more like...*the obvious is they MADE the quirks!*
> dog at home "Oh Poofie will not eat unless fed in her unicorn bowl while I stand on one foot and sing"
> dog at pro, metal bowl gets set down, ten min later gets picked up. By 3rd day Poofie will eat out of
> a scoop shovel. obvious? totaly!
> own what you condone


To further the road offtopic, yes, a million times yes, lol, and I'm just as guilty as any other owner sending their dogs off, so I know and can laugh at the truth and irony. 

If an average one or two dog owner type person, trying to train their dog, their way, has no point of reference, has never seen a HT or FT, how do they read their dog and train accordingly? How do they know what to train for, how to train, what, where and when to make a correction, what kind of correction, or is a correction needed? How do they objectively judge their own dog, when they have no point of reference and no experience? Mostly, they cave to the dog because they want to be friends, don't want to upset the dog, want dog happy happy happy all the time, while others go with the more pressure is better route and grind dog down too much. Balance is the holy grail and a fine line to find and walk and what the good trainers excel at, the average joe, often not so much, simply because they are so emotionally involved with their own dog. I know perfectly well a good pro will read and handle my dogs better than I do, overall.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

copterdoc said:


> That's really way off.
> 
> An experienced trainer will usually have a better read of what's going on inside a dog's head within 5 minutes, than it's owner could in 5 months.
> 
> ...


You guys are misreading what I'm writing. Clearly I am not communicating well - Or you have your hackles up over Milner and are taking it out on me. 

Either way, what I meant to say (and did say) was that pros are phenomenal in that they can read a dog, despite not raising it and that they can accomplish so much with a dog they didn't raise - even if it means they use a "system" that they have to modify for each individual.

Ken: By Quirks, I meant the individual idiosyncrasies of the dog. Like: will chomp the bird on the fourth retrieve at delivery, but not the first thru third. Not, what bowl they eat out of. I board dogs for a living. I'm not retarded. Trust me, I see dog victims of their owners every day. People with horribly fat dogs who bring a zip lock full of bacon for their dog to have as a mid morning snack. Won't even go into the obedience problems.

Give me a break. I'm not Milner. I've never insulted anyone for what they do. I don't think of my dogs as little people, either. Just because I do marker training, doesn't mean I wear a pink tutu and put a bandana on my Golden with a capital G.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Rainmaker said:


> To further the road offtopic, yes, a million times yes, lol, and I'm just as guilty as any other owner sending their dogs off, so I know and can laugh at the truth and irony.
> 
> If an average one or two dog owner type person, trying to train their dog, their way, has no point of reference, has never seen a HT or FT, how do they read their dog and train accordingly? How do they know what to train for, how to train, what, where and when to make a correction, what kind of correction, or is a correction needed? How do they objectively judge their own dog, when they have no point of reference and no experience? Mostly, they cave to the dog because they want to be friends, don't want to upset the dog, want dog happy happy happy all the time, while others go with the more pressure is better route and grind dog down too much. Balance is the holy grail and a fine line to find and walk and what the good trainers excel at, the average joe, often not so much, simply because they are so emotionally involved with their own dog. I know perfectly well a good pro will read and handle my dogs better than I do, overall.


I should have communicated better that I was launching my comments about "owners knowing their dogs" off of the premise that that "owner" is familiar with retriever training and familiar with the goals of their training. Wasn't talking about the average Joe or people who just want to be "Best friends" with their dog. Though, being a good friend to your dog, is not a bad thing, no matter what your endeavor.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I should have communicated better that I was launching my comments about "owners knowing their dogs" off of the premise that that "owner" is familiar with retriever training and familiar with the goals of their training..


but..... gosh, how are you able to comment with such fact? are not you the person who is going to go see your first field trial next month? Wasnt that you? Nobody thinks your Milner.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Yes, I haven't been to an FT yet. But I've been to plenty Hunt Tests over 3 years and saw all of the stakes multiple times. Have also served as marshall for Senior. 

That doesn't make me an expert or capable of talking about more than I know. I'm guilty of that. I even talk about politics and tax law, but I'm not a politician, tax lawyer or TV pundit.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Are there clicker/positive based rattlesnake avoidance classes?


Not "clicker" per se, but I'm hoping that my girl Envy's experience last spring w/ the "rattle" and the "positive pain response" afterward may have been pretty effective in teaching her avoidance.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I think that someone who has had dogs and trained dogs for a while, maybe even helping others train their dogs certainly are capable of reading their own dog. On the other hand a GOOD PRO who is working with a dog is certainly in a position to also read the dog. I will go out on a limb here and make a bold statement: I am with my dogs 24/7. I can read both of them better than anyone and I mean anyone for 99% of the time. My own obedience teacher who is an accomplished obedience trainer will even ask me "Why did your dog do that?" and I can tell him.

copterdoc, your post does say "experienced trainer" and that is what I think is important although I would like to add "very knowledgeable" to that.

Jennifer By now you see that certain topics and trainers are powderkegs for discussion. You are guilty by association. I know that you have more experience with dogs than the forum is aware of. 


I think that successful, experienced, intelligent trainers are not guilty of anthropomorphism and might be better versed in ethology than many think. I also like to read everyone's take on an issue because everyone's experience has value---I not only learn about dogs, I learn about people. Not every training model is appropriate for every trainer and you find that out by watching trainer and dog.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Often purely “positive” trainers claim that they are interested in a better relationship w/ their dogs. I think the optimum relationship requires that the dog understand I am not simply a human PEZ dispenser. While I do take advantage of the precise timing of a clicker in teaching early obedience, I stopped using it on a recent pup when he began barking in the interval between the “click” & the “treat”. 

I read this as him telling me to hurry up. Not the relationship I want.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

gdgnyc said:


> I think that someone who has had dogs and trained dogs for a while, maybe even helping others train their dogs certainly are capable of reading their own dog. On the other hand a GOOD PRO who is working with a dog is certainly in a position to also read the dog. I will go out on a limb here and make a bold statement: I am with my dogs 24/7. I can read both of them better than anyone and I mean anyone for 99% of the time. My own obedience teacher who is an accomplished obedience trainer will even ask me "Why did your dog do that?" and I can tell him.
> 
> copterdoc, your post does say "experienced trainer" and that is what I think is important although I would like to add "very knowledgeable" to that.
> 
> ...


It isn't guilt by association. It is guilt by assumption.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> Mary Lynn, I specifically said pros because that's what Jennifer referenced. But even those noobs using a system, Lardy, etc, have to adapt to their dog. Adaptation doesn't mean hodgpodge training, skipping steps, it means reading the dog and figuring out to communicate the desired response in a manner the dog best understands. It means understanding how to use a system to train a dog, not forcing a dog to fit a specific mold. It means understanding what the desired end result should be before you ever teach a dog to sit. I still hold that very few noobs can learn to train a dog well just from watching a DVD and/or reading a book. They are extremely helpful and I think I've gotten and have watched/read most on the market, along with alot of other dog training stuff. Where I actually learn to apply it is from the pros in the field and working a half dozen of my own at a time, at various levels. Now that is about as humbling as it gets, training more than one dog and realizing there is no mold that fits them all.


Kim not disagreeing with your statement. I am not referring to pros. I am referring to newbs such as myself. When I started I wished I knew what I know now! You need to have someone who is willing to divulge info no strings attached to assist you learn what you are speaking about. Luckily after mega mistakes on my first dog, I ran into two fellows who assisted me in HRC. Then I could understand what was expected on me. Some structured program will help you adapt to your dog better or it will be a long process. Just MHO.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> That's really way off.
> 
> An experienced trainer will usually have a better read of what's going on inside a dog's head within 5 minutes, than it's owner could in 5 months.
> 
> ...


I think you need to add *some* owners!!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I think you need to add *some* owners!!


See, that's the blindspot. Most owners think they are doing just awesome and know their dogs, meanwhile, have holes they don't even see, and hit walls they have no idea how to get over or around, so lots of stuff just gets ignored. Meanwhile, a pro can see the interaction between owner and dog in the field and size it up pretty quick. Not saying this is you, but just in general, owners have huge egos and pretty big blinders on. Myself included.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

The problems in training retrievers but could apply to any type of dog training, it looks so easy, but, it is not ,it is very complex. Add the additional tools of classic e collar training with sound basics and many feel when the dog learns the trick of the exercise, without proofing the exercise they are through. They take it to the field before the dog is ready, it crumbles and create sometimes lifetime problems.Now we want to quick fix it.... Example Ff dog learns the trick, reaches for the bumper and wow that was easy. We don't proof the FF take it to the field and now we have mouth issues or bird issues and it goes on and on. Made a lot of mistakes before I learned through professional help about 25 years ago the classic basic training with the e collars. Trained a lot of dogs before that in so called positive training in many venues. It just didn't work for me. I was always taught by some of the pros I used at the time, there is the easy way and there is the other way. Just one man's opinion.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> See, that's the blindspot. Most owners think they are doing just awesome and know their dogs, meanwhile, have holes they don't even see, and hit walls they have no idea how to get over or around, so lots of stuff just gets ignored. Meanwhile, a pro can see the interaction between owner and dog in the field and size it up pretty quick. Not saying this is you, but just in general, owners have huge egos and pretty big blinders on. Myself included.


I use the word *some* b/c there some very good amateur owners who do as well as pros!! AND Yes, people do think their dog is doing awesome. I agree. When they get to the actual trial they get an eyeopener and they have to readjust their thinking about their dog. On RTF you see it all the time by the questions asked. They illude to problems but you can tell they are so deep into trouble it is hard for them to regroup. They don't know where to turn unfortunately. That is why this forum is great. The experience of yourself and others on RTF can at least steer them in the right direction even if the comment is go "get help" or look for an experienced person! By no means is the internet RTForum a panicea or a training ground but it is a nice sounding board! IMHO Not disagreeing!Semantics.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I use the word *some* b/c there some very good amateur owners who do as well as pros!! AND Yes, people do think their dog is doing awesome. I agree. When they get to the actual trial they get an eyeopener and they have to readjust their thinking about their dog. On RTF you see it all the time by the questions asked. They illude to problems but you can tell they are so deep into trouble it is hard for them to regroup. They don't know where to turn unfortunately. That is why this forum is great. The experience of yourself and others on RTF can at least steer them in the right direction even if the comment is go "get help" or look for an experienced person! By no means is the internet RTForum a panicea or a training ground but it is a nice sounding board! IMHO Not disagreeing!Semantics.


Agree, no stiffer competition than a good Amateur. And there's good to be found on forums such as this, provided one takes all with a grain of salt and is able to sort accordingly. Just being given a direction (or 10) to look for help is better than flailing around on one's own.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

This is awesome Darrin, thanks!



DarrinGreene said:


> @ Barb, I have found that I am able to communicate my method to a pet dog owner a bit more clearly than the email you shared. I do stress the individual needs of the dog and owner in my explanation but I have a few guiding principals I communicate.
> 
> 1. Dogs need to be taught behaviors, and they need to have those behaviors re-enforced.
> 2. It's a rare dog and owner combination that can get reliable behavior with a strictly positive method. It can be done, but not by most people with jobs and lives.
> ...


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

hotel4dogs said:


> See Jennifer, I think that's a problem that I have in my training. I love immediate gratification. It's hard for me to break down things into baby-steps (which is why I learn under an excellent pro rather than trying to do it on my own!). I want my dog to just go out and DO it. He did in obedience, he did in agility. Field introduces a whole new set of issues and it's very new to me. But it's a blast!


..."I love immediate gratification."....

Just like Tito!! Ahhhh...owner-handler/retriever minds are on the same page..LOL 

Judy


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Yes, I haven't been to an FT yet. But I've been to plenty Hunt Tests over 3 years and saw all of the stakes multiple times. Have also served as marshall for Senior.
> 
> That doesn't make me an expert or capable of talking about more than I know. I'm guilty of that. I even talk about politics and tax law, but I'm not a politician, tax lawyer or TV pundit.


Jennifer, you are not guilty of anything.. Take that young Golden Retriever that you are totally in love with  ...to the upcoming Field Trial, Derby that you are planning to, enjoy and learn something of what it is all about. 

Then, while there, if possible, visit any of the other Stakes that are offered. 

Sorry, unable to remember if this is a Derby/Q event or a Field Trial with the upper Stakes as well. If there is the AM and Open, try to get over and watch as much as you can. It is an eye opener and well worth your while! Will give you tons of insight into your training goals, the young retriever you have ..and where you have dreams of going with him ...  

My very humble advice is to not wait to experience a visit to that world. You may wish that you had later on..

Enjoy..and hope to see a thread on how it went, your thoughts of the whole experience, and possibly that you are hooked! 

Judy


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

LOLOL, way too true!!



Judy Chute said:


> ..."I love immediate gratification."....
> 
> Just like Tito!! Ahhhh...owner-handler/retriever minds are on the same page..LOL
> 
> Judy


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Judy Chute said:


> Jennifer, you are not guilty of anything.. Take that young Golden Retriever that you are totally in love with  ...to the upcoming Field Trial, Derby that you are planning to, enjoy and learn something of what it is all about.
> 
> Then, while there, if possible, visit any of the other Stakes that are offered.
> 
> ...



Love it, Judy! Thanks so much for your advice and encouragement to get involved. Bird-boy and I will be going to two field trials in February just to watch and take it all in. Judy Rasmussen (sp) will be judging on one of the AMs we are going to and hoping to bump into Janice and John Gunn and Jackie Mertens while there. Since Janice and John are responsible for so many of my pup's immediate parentage, I'm hoping they'll be able to give me some insight on her condition and potential. 

As for getting hooked, I feel like I am already! Just need to toughen up the ole hide a little.

Thanks again, Judy!

Good thread, Barb!


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