# Can't !



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Can't use CC
Can't use FF
Can't use Clicker
Can't use Treats/Food

Dog is a keen retriever but drops around the 2 yard spot!
When sent out at 2 yards,It still drops it then comes back in!
Force hold is out!!

The dog has been to two separate trainers and is wise to the above, but will still pick up the bumper/or game ,but drops at the 2 yard spot.
It is not food orientated ,after three days of nothing (refusing the grub- not withholding it) and looks at treats as 'no value'!

Any advice from across the water?......


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Why is force hold out ??????? You say he is wise to it??????????? Believe me if its taught and reinforced he can be as wise as he wants. There will be a bit of repercussion if he doesn't. Jim


----------



## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

Find dumber dog, then try FF again.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Stop throwing a new one when he drops the old one. Encourage him to come closer to you by backing up and teasing with an identical object. If you can get him to let you touch the object before he drops it, immediately throw him another one. Teach him that by delivering to hand he gets to go again. Getting it started might be tough given how many times he's probably been rewarded for dropping it (with a new retrieve), but you can change the expectation if you put in the time and get creative about things. 

Might want to keep the initial action within the 2 yard limit so he learns to hold an object there first, then more onto bigger retrieves. Might also need to start out by just touching the object then moving onto actually taking it. You just have to start by getting him to hold for a half second and build up from there.

I thought those European dogs came out of the womb force fetched, guess not all of them


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

What Darrin said and I would add this very controversial idea: Tug of war. Not with game of course, but with a toy. Go back to square one, sit on the floor and play tug with a rope toy or something. Use or teach a release command then "GOOD" then toss toy a few inches, start playing tug again. Throw it farther and farther and upon return, play tug a less and less and use release command then "GOOD" then throw it. 

It works for soft mouth dogs. I know you are a trainer with enough experience to know whether this dog could handle the tug game without it becomming a problem with game.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Thanks !
Darrin, This one is what I would call 'Smarter than the average Bear'?...So many of the usual techniques have been attempted by others (rightly or wrongly) I can't say?..
The 2 yard point is a ''drop'' and keep on trucking!! ?...
I agree, that keeping everything at the 2 yard limit is the place to be.
This one , won't even hold on to a Bone! ...It is under 2 years old,so It's not too in-grained.
The pick up and initial hold is great,and the return. It just does not want to hold it at that 2 yard point!!.
I tried a dizzied bird earlier today, same thing!..It even stopped on it's own and let the bird walk away?


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ya might have to hold onto the little booger and show him (gently) what you want. The tug idea is a good one also, IF he'll play. I have one that I play tug with in OB demonstrations every single day and she is plenty soft mouthed with a bird. I suppose it could backfire on ya but as Dad used to say... "can't hurt a terd"

Oh and on the tug thing, just get him going and when his mouth is quiet but he still has a hold on the object GIVE IT TO HIM. Let him win a lot so he doesn't think that every time he gets to you he has to give it up. 

These things are quite counter to most retriever basics over here (and probably over there) but you have quite the opposite problem of most people.

BTW it sounds like he may have gotten whacked in the bean one to many times as a pup and doesn't want to come close now.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Teach no-force hold. If you teach a dog to sit why can't you teach hold?


----------



## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is my ha'penny bit of advice:

It sounds like the dog has been able to set the standard for delivery and you only need to recalibrate it for him. Don't assume the other trainers have done their work to the standard you require*"...So many of the usual techniques have been attempted by others (rightly or wrongly) I can't say?.."* back up in training to a reasonable starting point for proper delivery to hand.
Re-visit FF all the way through walking fetch. During walking fetch(on 6 ft. leash)you set the tempo and are reenforcing pick up and hold the instant a command is given or broken. When dog is order to fetch, keep moving, try to never stand and wait for the dog to catch up, just keep moving. Failure on the dog's part to come to heal quickly with bumper in mouth gets a leash correction, dropping bumper gets an ear pinch as quickly as the infraction occurs. I doubt you need this bit but: be calm and as unemotional as possible when administering corrections and use no more force than required and use calming praise whenever appropriate. 

When you believe that the dog understands your standard for hold and delivery, start throwing bumpers a short distance by hand with the dog on a long line, maintain same standard of performance a la walking fetch with the long line as you would have done on the leash. Repeat until you are certain the standard is well understood by the dog before allowing him any retrieves off lead.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Don't know the answer but I am curious if the dog spits out the bird while being reeled in the last two feet on a check cord?


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> Don't know the answer but I am curious if the dog spits out the bird while being reeled in the last two feet on a check cord?


Same thing!
Drops while trucking!, then comes in.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

HNTFSH said:


> Don't know the answer but I am curious if the dog spits out the bird while being reeled in the last two feet on a check cord?


 I had the same curiosity only I was wondering what would happen if you put a line on the bird and reeled it in, vs. on the dog.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I had the same curiosity only I was wondering what would happen if you put a line on the bird and reeled it in, vs. on the dog.


That'd make for great utube. ;-)


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I had the same curiosity only I was wondering what would happen if you put a line on the bird and reeled it in, vs. on the dog.


Tried that! , Dog is a 'No Go'. !
With encouragement, It goes and get's , then drops !
Forgive me! ( It's not that I've not tried some tug and take,or some get up and go) .
As a trainer you get a canvass , but they aren't all 'Blank'? 
Cheers for the advice so far . This one is a stubborn little ****!...Attrition may be the route , but finding the route to that is testing me!


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Same thing!
> Drops while trucking!, then comes in.


And if handler movement continues to increase by 3 feet as the dog approaches there's no drop till the 2 foot mark? What happens on a whistle sit at 4 feet and you walk over to take the bird?


----------



## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

That dog would get a steady diet of hold. On lead, off lead, airing, riding in the truck and wherever else I could think of. I exaggerate a little to make the point that it's not a delivery problem but a hold problem to my way of thinking and whatever you can do to solidify that will get you that much closer to where you need to be.


----------



## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

HNTFSH said:


> Don't know the answer but I am curious if the dog spits out the bird while being reeled in the last two feet on a check cord?


I hope no trainer will stand at line like a statue when their dog refuses a command and instead would respond calmly but quickly with: move up to dog, issue fetch command, ear pinch as per FF and as in walking fetch, praise for compliance, repeat. I would also hope that retrieves on a long line would not be offered to this dog until it had shown understand of the correct response to "fetch" during walking fetch. 

I agree to a certain extent Bruce that the dog is breaking its "hold" however as the OP describes this it seems to do so consistently 6ft from delivering to handler which to my mind makes it a delivery issue, in either case I still think training fetch in its simplest least distracted way and then building up distance is a safe bet.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> And if handler movement continues to increase by 3 feet as the dog approaches there's no drop till the 2 foot mark? What happens on a whistle sit at 4 feet and you walk over to take the bird?


Dog drops at the 4 foot whistle stop!
The 'Hold' is the issue ,I am aware of. However ,this one has 'probably'?..I don't know, and the owner is telling me 'No', that this 'Hold' has been ''Forced''!.. ie 'Forced to hold'!
But it is keen to retrieve(get ,pick up, return)


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

blind ambition said:


> I hope no trainer will stand at line like a statue when their dog refuses a command and instead would respond calmly but quickly with: move up to dog, issue fetch command, ear pinch as per FF and as in walking fetch, praise for compliance, repeat. I would also hope that retrieves on a long line would not be offered to this dog until it had shown understand of the correct response to "fetch" during walking fetch.


I would too. Doesn't sound like the training regiment over there. 

"Can't use CC
Can't use FF
Can't use Clicker
Can't use Treats/Food

Dog is a keen retriever but drops around the 2 yard spot!
When sent out at 2 yards,It still drops it then comes back in!
Force hold is out!!"


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Dog drops at the 4 foot whistle stop!
> The 'Hold' is the issue ,I am aware of. However ,this one has 'probably'?..I don't know, and the owner is telling me 'No', that this 'Hold' has been ''Forced''!.. ie 'Forced to hold'!
> But it is keen to retrieve(get ,pick up, return)


I'd charge extra. That's my advice. ;-)


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> I would too. Doesn't sound like the training regiment over there.


Not for this one!
But it is for many others


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Teach no-force hold. If you teach a dog to sit why can't you teach hold?


Give it up Paul...saw where this was going early on.shoulda known better. Jim


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I am sorry ...can you explain in American why this dog cannot be taught hold or to be Force Fetched? the owner says no? or supposedly it has already been done? If it has already been done, do it over, CORRECTLY.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> I'd charge extra. That's my advice. ;-)


I was thinking of 'No charge'! in this case HNTFSH !
After all...I ain't fixed it .....yet!..
Problem with some ..they want it fixed in a time frame.
This one ,could take some time?......Some ain't got the time, or the money.

A bit of a breakthrough tonight though, ...It held a bone, for a while,at least right by me!


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

polmaise said:


> I was thinking of 'No charge'! in this case HNTFSH !
> After all...I ain't fixed it .....yet!..
> Problem with some ..they want it fixed in a time frame.
> This one ,could take some time?......Some ain't got the time, or the money.
> ...


Please see my PM. I have lost your contact info.

Chris


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Please see my PM. I have lost your contact info.
> 
> Chris


Thanks !


----------



## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Will the dog play tug of war with an item? What happens if something other than an training bumper or bird are thrown, say a tennis ball in a play setting?

Seems the dog has learned that it gets another retrieve even though it doesnt bring the object all the way back. It needs to learn that the "game" doesn't continue without delivery to hand. Make delivery to hand more fun than not delivering to hand.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave Plesko said:


> Will the dog play tug of war with an item? What happens if something other than an training bumper or bird are thrown, say a tennis ball in a play setting?
> 
> Seems the dog has learned that it gets another retrieve even though it doesnt bring the object all the way back. It needs to learn that the "game" doesn't continue without delivery to hand. Make delivery to hand more fun than not delivering to hand.


Must have been a nice flight...repost Friday night...lol..


----------



## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

I was wondering the same thing Bridget. I've never seen or heard of a dog that could not be properly force fetched.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I am sorry ...can you explain in American why this dog cannot be taught hold or to be Force Fetched? the owner says no? or supposedly it has already been done? If it has already been done, do it over, CORRECTLY.


'This One' , breaks down immediately Bridget,so you don't even get to first base.
When you 'play' tuggy or attract even attention ,it goes 'belly up' !
Best I've managed in the last three days is a sit and hold on a table with a bone. That lasted about 20 seconds , she now won't go near the bone.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

polmaise said:


> 'This One' , breaks down immediately Bridget,so you don't even get to first base.
> When you 'play' tuggy or attract even attention ,*it goes 'belly up' !.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> seen this in a couple Chesapeake "Drama Queens". tether on a grooming table. dog can not go belly up. dog can not go any place at all. you are able to work calmly on hold and fetch. I have moved to the ground for FF now
> ...


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

polmaise said:


> 'This One' , breaks down immediately Bridget,so you don't even get to first base.
> When you 'play' tuggy or attract even attention ,it goes 'belly up' !
> Best I've managed in the last three days is a sit and hold on a table with a bone. That lasted about 20 seconds , she now won't go near the bone.


OK that makes better sense.....I have always said what you allow a dog to do , you are teaching them to do. So first she would be not allowed to belly up..... the 20 seconds sounds like a start, keep building .
Who cares if she does not like the bone , she can still hold it... I force with bumpers and some dogs go "off" bumpers for a period , but when the job is done and they realize that bumper in mouth is a happy place , they like them again.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Best I got!! 
Yup, this one sure is squirley Ken Bora!


----------



## Paul Frey (Jun 15, 2012)

I was training with my pro this weekend and he had a dog in the kennel with the same problem. He told the owner to turn and walk away from the dog when he got within a few feet. The dog would follow with the bird. The owner was to reach down and grab the bird when the dog got close. Seemed to work.


----------



## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

Have you tried the most simple of all...turn and RUN the other way as the dog is approaching you on the return? Make the dog _want_ to close the distance further and snatch it as the dog passes you.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm dealing with one of those lay down and roll over dogs right now. No problem, tied her to a post (since I don't have a FF table) and worked through it... got it all worked out now and she's doing fine. In fact, she's happier than ever to retrieve. You said FF wasn't an option so I tried to offer some alternate ideas. 

Here's one... 

Has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, this particular dog is going to require so much effort that keeping her for a pet and getting a more suitable hunting dog might be the most practical answer 

I have two labs... for a reason


----------



## RMC$$$ (Oct 1, 2012)

Like Darrin stated tie it to a post. One collar on the post snug it down tight. You can screw the collar to the post or attach it with wire. Run the 2nd collar thru the first and snug it down tight as well. Don't choke the dog but it needs to be tight enough that the dog cannot "set back" and get loose. If the dog gets loose it will set your training back. The best picture I have seen of this was in a Delmar Smith video. Cant find a copy of it on the internet. Work on fetch with the dog snugged up to the post. Same with hold. It sounds to me that they have let the dog use the rolling on its back (avoidance behavior) to dictate the training sessions. I would also start with a canvas bumper or a paint roller since the dog will be more inclined to hold it. With hard plastic dummies soft mouthed dogs have a tendency at first to let it slide out or drop when the bumper gets slick from the dog's saliva.

My labs have all been pretty docile when it came to force fetch. My pointers and short hairs were another story. Most would try to bite, claw, set back and scratch before giving and and accepting the force fetch. Once they got it they all became reliable retrievers. The force fetch process also works out the pecking order/dominance relationship between the dog and the trainer just like obedience. The most important thing is to keep emotion out of the process. Don't get mad, patience and persistance will win in the end. My wife is much smaller and weaker than me and she wears me down and gets her way in the end. :razz:


----------



## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

polmaise said:


> Can't use CC
> Can't use FF
> Can't use Clicker
> Can't use Treats/Food
> ...


WoW.
Why in the world can't you simply re-enforce HERE, and teach the dog to HOLD? If it were me I'd get a lead on, a bumper in his mouth, and have him carry it for "5 miles" on a walk untill he learned to SIT, HOLD and DROP on command, and only in my hand and on a command. 
Geeze, is that allowed over there? :idea:

Don't care if it takes 100,000 REPS, the dog wouldn't retrieve another bird/bumper until he understands HERE, HOLD and DROP.

What in the world is "force-hold"? Is that when you re-enforce a known command, i.e., HOLD?


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Swampbilly said:


> WoW.
> Why in the world can't you simply re-enforce HERE, and teach the dog to HOLD? If it were me I'd get a lead on, a bumper in his mouth, and have him carry it for "5 miles" on a walk untill he learned to SIT, HOLD and DROP on command, and only in my hand and on a command.
> Geeze, is that allowed over there? :idea:
> 
> ...


Yea my thoughts exactly.force hold is all we did back in the day.We used lip pinch.
My opinion the dog can lay on its back and pee straight up in the air but its gonna hold it!


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Swampbilly said:


> WoW.
> Why in the world can't you simply re-enforce HERE, and teach the dog to HOLD? If it were me I'd get a lead on, a bumper in his mouth, and have him carry it for "5 miles" on a walk untill he learned to SIT, HOLD and DROP on command, and only in my hand and on a command.
> Geeze, is that allowed over there? :idea:
> 
> ...


Reading the dog, I think that is what has been attempted by a previous trainer and 'Failed'! ? Or something has not been followed through.
When you get them from clients , the whole story is sometimes not given,or bits are left out.


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

I had an English cocker in last winter. I opted to go old school and just teach hold,I`ve had these little guys before and knew what I as in for.Was about the same story as yours.Taught hold and spent 2 or 3 weeks on just that where it became second nature to just hold.Started with a short piece of broom handle then graduated to a 2x 11 dummy then to a canvass then to pigeons.Hold...Hold ...Around the yard up the drive,through the field ,get it?
Once she was delivering nicely with pigeons the transition to pheasants was easy.
I have not had a lab or chessie that could trail like this little girl could,she is awesome and despite her owner has worked out to be a nice little gundog.
By the way dad started out training springers and cockers back in the 50`s then went to labs. That's where I got my start. Jim


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

This is what happens when you let miniature poodles in retriever sports....

/Paul


----------



## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> This is what happens when you let miniature poodles in retriever sports....
> 
> /Paul


Hey, I know an obed judge w/ awesome Mini Poos and yes, they ARE FF'd. Retrieving, happy fools. Don't put down the breed, put down the trainers (and/ or the lines).

To the OP, didn't your mama tell you that "Can't" ain't in the dictionary????


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

windycanyon said:


> Hey, I know an obed judge w/ awesome Mini Poos and yes, they ARE FF'd. Retrieving, happy fools. Don't put down the breed, put down the trainers (and/ or the lines).
> 
> To the OP, didn't your mama tell you that "Can't" ain't in the dictionary????


As I was told back when, can't is physically not possible....I beleive their is more to this thread that is not discuss..... Fly on the wall?????


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Robt., so "can't ain't in the dictionary" and somebody else wants to be a fly on your wall - nice little segue into what you're looking for over there as advised, and hoping it ain't as tough to pin down in the UK as googling Max Mosley in flagrante delicto these days!:wink:

MG


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

*Incapable * shouldn't get mistreud with *Can't* as you '_*know*_' MG. 
Restrictions imposed' are also not limitations , merely '*challenging'* for some.
Not sure if it's a *Tsetse* that wants to be on my wall '*TIk -Tik*' ,time is running out!...


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

polmaise said:


> Reading the dog, I think that is what has been attempted by a previous trainer and 'Failed'! ? Or something has not been followed through.
> When you get them from clients , the whole story is sometimes not given,or bits are left out.


LOL let me revise that... when you get them from clients the whole story is NEVER given and the IMPORTANT BITS are ALWAYS left out!


----------



## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

polmaise said:


> Reading the dog, I think that is what has been attempted by a previous trainer and 'Failed'! ? Or something has not been followed through.
> When you get them from clients , the whole story is sometimes not given,or bits are left out.


Understood.
Guess I'm not understanding what there is to "read".

Way I see it, one could guess that the dog, (?pup?) has either not been taught that a hand delivery is also a part of a retrieve, or the dog, (?pup?) (for whatever reason), has just decided to self employ himself, make up his own rules returning, or something not-so-good has happened on a _return_ near the handler.

No matter what the circumstances are, you've got to find a way to keep the dog moving towards you *with* and without an object in his mouth and "convince" him that that's "the way".

Teach the dog to HEEL!


----------



## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

polmaise said:


> Can't use CC
> Can't use FF
> Can't use Clicker
> Can't use Treats/Food
> Force hold is out!!


I _know_.. that you know.. that none of the above is neccessary to get a hand delivery. Hopefully there's one thing left that isn't forbidden over there-
_Praise_ for success.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Swampbilly said:


> Understood.
> Guess I'm not understanding what there is to "read".
> 
> Way I see it, one could guess that the dog, (?pup?) has either not been taught that a hand delivery is also a part of a retrieve, or the dog, (?pup?) (for whatever reason), has just decided to self employ himself, make up his own rules returning, or something not-so-good has happened on a _return_ near the handler.
> ...


The dog is just coming on 2 years old Swampbilly. Just as well, If it was another year older I would be calling Ghostbusters! Not ...RTF ....
The dog walks perfect on and off lead (with nothing in the mouth) ,,It has also been on shoots -Live game- ,stops to flush and steady to shot and takes direction.Hunts within range of the gun. Picks up game! ..then reverts back to type?.....Walking to heel with something in the gob at this stage would be a 'bridge too far'? (imo) But thanks for the help


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

polmaise said:


> The dog is just coming on 2 years old Swampbilly. Just as well, If it was another year older I would be calling Ghostbusters! Not ...RTF ....
> The dog walks perfect on and off lead (with nothing in the mouth) ,,It has also been on shoots -Live game- ,stops to flush and steady to shot and takes direction.Hunts within range of the gun. Picks up game! ..then reverts back to type?.....Walking to heel with something in the gob at this stage would be a 'bridge too far'? (imo) But thanks for the help


Ive been following this and after your last statement it all makes perfect sense now as to what has happened.But with all due respect you have received some great advice but sensing you really don't want to hear it. Good day.....jim


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> Ive been following this and after your last statement it all makes perfect sense now as to what has happened.But with all due respect you have received some great advice but sensing you really don't want to hear it. Good day.....jim


Thanks Jim.
I have received some fantastic advice! On open forum and through PM . 
Although I train dogs of all breeds in a variety of disciplines ,there is often the time when you come across the situation(s) where , perhaps others can give a helping hand?
As it is a basic retrieving issue with this dog (irrespective of breed) ,RTF members have been real helpful .


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Ok then....listen to Blind Ambition said,I said,and swambilly!!!and bruce,Get to work!!!Haaa
My take is steady to flush at two? Wowww More emphasis was put into that than delivery when it should have been the other wayaround.Bad habits are very hard to fix as you well know if you train for the public.
You know whats nice about it the first week it can be done at night in the house!!! Those little dogs really enjoy one on one inside. Good luck and keep us informed. Jim


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> Ok then....listen to Blind Ambition said,I said,and swambilly!!!and bruce,Get to work!!!Haaa
> My take is steady to flush at two? Wowww More emphasis was put into that than delivery when it should have been the other wayaround.Bad habits are very hard to fix as you well know if you train for the public.
> You know whats nice about it the first week it can be done at night in the house!!! Those little dogs really enjoy one on one inside. Good luck and keep us informed. Jim


Thanks Jim. Of course I'll keep you informed.
This was today! ..after 'Four days in the house' since she got here! .I'm 'backchaining to the hold', that's why I ain't doing no 'walking to heel' ! It can do that, I'm not doing hunting ,because it can do that, I'm not doing stop to flush , because it can do that. I'm just giving praise when it does the things it ''Can't do'' !......I used a chair\/ Hey , that worked!..I used Cheese> Hey that worked!...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NShDA6wxGx8


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Stay with it my friend!!!!!!!Baby steps!!!!You are earning your money. Jim


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

jd6400 said:


> Stay with it my friend!!!!!!!Baby steps!!!!You are earning your money. Jim


At least she doesn't bite anymore ;-)


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

polmaise said:


> At least she doesn't bite anymore ;-)


Ahhh...the joys of working spaniels....haaa


----------



## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

There is one wrinkle to the "Fetch" education which I don't hear mentioned much anymore....I believe it was something I saw Jim Dobbs do in a video, it was teach the dog to "release" prior to teaching "hold". I have used it to start FF _and_ as a remedial for any mouth or delivery issues during a competition. I believe it conveys to the dog the concept that its mouth belongs to the trainer( at least in limited circumstances )
Standard disclaimer: I train my own dogs and they live in house with us; trust, confidence and loving bond between me and them is a certainty and not in question. 

Calmly and without any command being given secure dog by collar with one hand (or secure to post), 
Place other hand in dogs mouth, use a thick glove with a young dog or client's dog, 
Say nothing, maintain enough grip on dog's lower jaw to keep hand in dog's mouth, if you loose your grip don't get angry/panic and don't speak, just regain your grip. Note: you are not interested in causing pain, this is not to be construed as "Force" or an aversive, it is just you letting the dog know its mouth belongs to you,
You may remove your hand once the dog stops struggling but watch for this sign from them first: The dog will stop struggling and a moment or so later it will give a sigh or two...that is your clue that this session is over
If, as you relax your thumb in preparation to removing your hand the dog squirms or clenches begin over again....wordlessly
OK this time you are lucky and dog accepts your hand, as you prepare to remove it, *give the first and only command this session....your word for DROP/OUT or WHY *
The dog is learning that there is a word/command to let it know when to let something out of its mouth and that word comes from its trainer/owner etc. 

If I am beginning FF with my pup I will do this a few more times, not to make it perfect and glitch free but just enough to see substantial improvement in dog's acceptance of my control of its mouth. Once I am satisfied I go on to teach "Hold" then go onto the fetch with as little force via ear pinch as necessary. If you find some success with your little hard head, you might stay on this lesson longer to seek perfection and you might also wish to use it to begin each session of your "Fully educated, conditioned retrieve and delivery exercises"


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

polmaise said:


> Can't use CC
> Can't use FF
> Can't use Clicker
> Can't use Treats/Food
> ...





Just saw this thread after some time with deer and ducks and intrigued by the problem and the responses. I sped though them so may have missed all suggestions and subtleties. 


However,most seem to addressing the problem very directly rather than indirectly by breaking down the issues.


This problem can be “fixed” if you can get the dog to hold and you can get the dog to stop and sit remotely from you as separate behaviours. So tackle the remote sit first and forget the hold for now. The discipline of this will help immeasurably. 


Using an outstretched hand, a command sit, a whistle sit, TEACH this dog to sit when NOT at your side. Meanwhile also practice a sit, walk away and then a call to here. PRAISE!!!

Put the two together and be able to stop the dog 5 feet away and then walk up and PRAISE.
Now tackle the hold using the most friendly, easy to carry object possible-perhaps a fuzzy paint roller-You got such things in Scotland? This will be a bribe job not a force job. Firm but praise with ANY effort-even 2 seconds. Make it a game-do not demand but seek mini progress. Try very hard to get the hold and be able to step away and then rush in and praise. Treat like a puppy and when you fail just positively re-do barely showing displeasure. 


Get these two skills developed separately. Sounds like this will take weeks. Forget the $$ and time and think of the challenge. Only when you can get a remote sit on a return with no bumper/item and only when you can get a hold for 30 seconds and the ability to walk around while the dog holds, dare you combine.


If you get to this stage then for many retrieves you will stop the dog remotely, walk up and then take the bird. It will be a long time before you get delivery to hand as you gradually lessen the gap.

This can be done- can you be that patient and that much of a teacher? If you can’t I would truly understand and accept that it isn’t worth the effort. 

But I wouldn’t accept the CAN’T part!!!


----------



## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

Have you had a chance to watch the dog with the owner? Have you had the owner show you what he/she has done when teaching the dog? 

My guess is that something caused the behavior to start and, if you don't know what caused it, and the owner keeps doing whatever caused it, any fix will break down when the dog goes back home. Maybe the dog was mouthing birds and got punished when it got close enough for the owner to grab it. Maybe the dog likes snatching things (slippers, gloves) and the owner is all "Here, puppy, puppy, good dog, bring it here" until the dog gets close and then it's "Bad Dog!" Or maybe it was as simple as confusing application of force and/or praise during training. 

A couple of weeks ago, I was helping a friend get started on teaching her sheltie to hold a dumbbell. This person didn't want to use an ear pinch, but couldn't get the dog to stop spitting out the dumbbell. I had her show me what she was doing. She would pry the dog's mouth open (gently), insert dumbbell, hold the dog's mouth shut, saying sternly "HOLD!" with a frown, count a few seconds, say "Give" in a sweet voice, then praise extravagantly. I got her to praise extravagantly, with a smile, while the dog had the dumbbell in its mouth, and to keep any praise for "Give" very low key. (a brief Good). It's very confusing for the dog if the owner looks mad when the dog is holding the dumbbell and sounds ecstatic when the dog gives it up, but I see a lot of first-time OB trainers do it. With a few reps of getting the owner to change the timing of her praise, the sheltie was holding the dumbbell, and even hesitated a little to release it on "Give". 

The owner of this dog might have been getting more and more stern, angry, and loud with his "HOLD' commands as the dog got worse, leading to a vicious cycle of the dog not wanting to be anywhere near the owner while it was holding something. 

Good luck!


----------



## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

polmaise said:


> The dog is just coming on 2 years old Swampbilly. Just as well, If it was another year older I would be calling Ghostbusters! Not ...RTF ....
> The dog walks perfect on and off lead (with nothing in the mouth) ,,It has also been on shoots -Live game- ,stops to flush and steady to shot and takes direction.Hunts within range of the gun. Picks up game! ..then reverts back to type?.....Walking to heel with something in the gob at this stage would be a 'bridge too far'? (imo) But thanks for the help


Well, you're welcome Robt. (I think). 
Apparently the "bridge" self imploded itself long ago before you got your hands on the dog, or was never built, (unlike the one over the river Kwai ;-) ), and as Mr. Voigt elegantly explained, it would be a real good idea to break down things into components and bring it all together once each one becomes better understood.

Not to speak for Mr. Voigt, but I'm sure that eventually translates to include coming to HEEL from a remote front SIT btw ;-)


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Thought I would update on this little unusual wee girl.
It was a couple of weeks before we could eventually have a reliable hold and hold on to with me.
The transition after training with the owner took somewhat longer, but I'm pleased to say that has now been overcome.

A massive thanks to Chris Atkinson ,Mr Voigt ,MG and Brian for the personal help with this one which has now also completed the shooting season retrieving game.

It's also very difficult for you other guys hearing the issue(s) through text , thanks for all your comments much appreciated. Hope I don't get too many like this one! I may get similar 

It may be a small thing for some , but for this handler/owner, believe me ,you would think she just won the Championships 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjVTGL3zgGA&feature=youtu.be


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Thought I would update on this little unusual wee girl.
> It was a couple of weeks before we could eventually have a reliable hold and hold on to with me.
> The transition after training with the owner took somewhat longer, but I'm pleased to say that has now been overcome.
> 
> ...


Great to hear....have been wondering what happened with that dog.......Jim


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great video! Good job, man!


----------



## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

polmaise said:


> It may be a small thing for some , but for this handler/owner, believe me ,you would think she just won the Championships


I think this is all that matters in the end. Our own happiness and our dogs happiness... wherever that may be in our lives.


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Ta, Robt., but how 'bout the "Can!" of your other wee protege? Some folk may have missed it in the conformation thread:










MG


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

marissa e. said:


> i think this is all that matters in the end. Our own happiness and our dogs happiness... Wherever that may be in our lives.



like !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

So what your saying is you can't train the dog since any/all training methods are off limits. Buy a cat.....

/Paul


----------



## P J (Dec 10, 2009)

Years ago, I learned how to obedience train a dog, come, sit, down and stay. My husband and I got a lab, when we threw balls or anything else for him to retrieve, we simply held a hand out and said "give it to me". If he dropped it, we did not pick it up or throw anything else until he put it in our hand. He liked to retrieve, so he quickly learned to put the ball in our hand.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Ta, Robt., but how 'bout the "Can!" of your other wee protege? Some folk may have missed it in the conformation thread:
> MG


That wee protege is a different '_kettle of fish'_ Michael , Watch out for _'us_' on the Live TV at Crufts Sunday 9th March.
That little fella is becoming an International superstar ,also featured in a German Magazine outlining the history of his training to be published in April/May .


----------



## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

polmaise said:


> Thought I would update on this little unusual wee girl.
> It was a couple of weeks before we could eventually have a reliable hold and hold on to with me.
> The transition after training with the owner took somewhat longer, but I'm pleased to say that has now been overcome...


That's good to hear. I have a question for you now.

Having gotten past this issue with this dog, and knowing what you know now, how would YOU respond to your original question?

""Can't use CC
Can't use FF
Can't use Clicker
Can't use Treats/Food
Dog is a keen retriever but drops around the 2 yard spot!
When sent out at 2 yards,It still drops it then comes back in!
Force hold is out!!
The dog has been to two separate trainers and is wise to the above, but will still pick up the bumper/or game ,but drops at the 2 yard spot.
It is not food orientated ,after three days of nothing (refusing the grub- not withholding it) and looks at treats as 'no value'!

Any advice from across the water?...... "

What was the advice that you got, through PM, online respone, or calls, that got you through with this one? Or what did you find on your own to resolve this?

Thanks,


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ron in Portland said:


> That's good to hear. I have a question for you now.
> 
> Having gotten past this issue with this dog, and knowing what you know now, how would YOU respond to your original question?
> 
> ...


To be honest it was a mixture of all the advice which came to me less politically correct than would normally be seen on open forum,which often gets misinterpreted or diverted on a different tangent, and my own experience. The common theme throughout from all quarters however was a genuine response to help. On reflection if it's of help to anyone who does have an issue that is possibly outside the mainstream of retriever training,just contact directly or give someone you know who you respect and have experience that may help. That's why I'm a believer in True identity on forums such as this! Billy 123 ,or Joe 456,means nothing to me other than what they post?,I'm not saying that what they post is right or wrong? Like your signature Ron can take me to your web site and I can read about 'Porter' and all the good things you have achieved,but it doesn't tell me that you know how how to fix (MY) Issue ?.The added bonus of course for me (as a trainer) is that I always had the best view and in the best position to fix and work through ,because I had the dog in front of me! The advice helped tons! because even when Mohammed Ali won the title he still had a coach.I previously during and after this issue keep in contact with my colleagues across your water and they keep in contact with me. It was this forum that allowed me to be fortunate enough to learn about things that would have been so difficult from a book or dvd or even buying into a program that I would probably not understand . Hope that answers. http://www.polmaisegundogs.co.uk/


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Of the names you listed who helped I wouldn't hesitate to call Mr Voigt, especially for complex questions. Like having a professor from Edinburgh University as a mentor, really.


----------



## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Sounds like the dog is doing exactly what it was taught to do and rewarded for doing it. This is exactly why FF is taught so that you have an efficient tool to deal with this type of issue or behavior. Having the FF tool allows you to nip problems in the bud quickly and it gets you back on more advanced items instead of struggling with the basics.


----------



## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Polmaise why pose this question since you have an answer. Smartest dog ever breed. It is not a hold problem but a here problem. Teach hear to the genius.


----------

