# Unethical trainers How to "out" them?



## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Had a call about 3-4 weeks ago from a very casual acquaintance. He asked me about trainer XYZ. Said he had a nice Sr. Hunter and took to XYZ for Master training. Went 6 weeks later to look at the dog and it was a “wreck” Cowering at any command. No go on blinds. Absolutely a nervous wreck. Caller said he immediately took the dog home. Figured it had been burned up by excessive collar pressure and intensity. 
Took the dog a couple weeks later to trainer ABC and ABC calls him right away and asks how long the dog had a broken rib. Ends up dog has a somewhat healed broken rib, maybe from a kick.
Another call recently from another friend, much more so than the first guy and he told me that due to personal circumstances, he had to send a very well bred 8 mo old to a trainer for completion of FF and FTP. Gets the dog back and OB is gone to pieces, mouth manners worse than when the dog was sent, no FTP at all. Dog had been at trainer for 6 months and it appears that nothing done except feeding. This guy knows what he is talking about since he has trained his own dogs to HRCH and MH. 
Another call a few weeks ago from a very good dog guy telling me that he got one back from a client that had the dog with a well known trainer for 6 months and the dog was fat, lazy, regressed horribly. Client felt the dog had not been worked at all. Trainer only effort was to cash the check.
2 years ago, a guy brings me a dog that was a pup of mine, been with a well known HT trainer, should have weighed 55-60 lbs and was just skin and bones. Might have been 40 lbs, Dog was living in a crate, not a kennel. Filthy, no training, just a train wreck.
The stories can go on and on and on…….
In this so sensitive PC world we live in, how does the message get out to noobs and inexperienced owners who these people are? 
Several will be thinking, “Well, they won’t be around long” but that does not help the guy who does not know, works by the hour and the $500 per month is a major expense. And then what about the dog? It may or may not be salvageable for training and the poor owner is “stuck” with an animal that may not have much purpose for the next several years. 
A quandary I have been thinking about for some time. Any answers?????
MP


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

As owner you are responsible for making sure such as you describe never happens. Step one is ask around for people with actual experience with a good trainer. Ask a lot of people, don't send you dog off to someone you don't know unless his or her reputation is impeccable. Then have lengthy conversations with the trainer, what is his training philosophy, does he adjust his program to fit the dog, what kind of facilities does he have. Go visit and watch him train dogs, ask for references. Then follow up with frequent phone conversations and visit your dog after a month or so. Most "well known" trainers are good because by being well known, people would know how they train and what kind of success they've had. 

I can rattle ten trainer's names off the top of my head and though I haven't trained with but a few of them know a lot about their training expertise and can see just from watching them run their dogs how the dogs are treated, I would do my homework, but be very comfortable putting my dog with any of them.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Just my experience Mike is *word of mouth* would be the best way. I don't mind sharing this story. I certainly learned with my old guy (11yo) that the so called FT pro, who had burned my dog up, was no good and I found out too late. I was told when I went to watch Blackie's performance that he would be fixed later and to put him back in the truck for now. I was a complete newbie and yes I did have questions about that but.... Did anyone speak up at the practice NO and did anyone take me aside NO to tell me the real facts about this guy. After 2 1/2 months, $$$$ later and several trips out to see what was going on I took the dog out of his kennels. 

I decided to go to one hunt test. The judge and I had to take Blackie out to the bird and put in his mouth. In practice if you proceded to use the collar for an infraction the dog did not respond and shrank away from it. Well I did go back to speak with so called pro about this and about *no* registration papers. We had a pretty good argument with words not in a dictionary. I did get my papers when the dog turned 3yo. I did get Blackie to his HR title, but he was truly screwed up. He did not know how to retrieve. He did not go out to the bird and would not stay still at the line. His obedience and manners that I had worked on were gone. He barked!!ETC
So your question how do you get the info out, I would say word of mouth. Also at first I was told not to come and see my dog. That was a big mistake I should have seen the dog from the very start of the training (FF and CC and Started) The other thing should have done was check up on the fellow before I sent him to him but I was new.. And the other thing if others know about these people and I was at a practice, speak up. Take the newbie aside and say something. Too new to know I really got taken and I blame myself. It is easy to say to someone now it is your responsibility to check up and I sure wish I had b/c I would be in a different spot today.
I am not a quitter but that encounter really set me back and I almost quit. I also felt very discouraged and felt very bad for my dog all b/c I did not know. My dog never reached his full potential. How many other dogs are out there like that? 
I also realized and even now as I start out in FT for a 1 yr you are on your own to some extent and it is your responsiiblity to get the info. And even though there are comments said to you, some are not constructive and your job is to sift through all this sea of newness. 
I feel for anyone who has shared a similar experience and hope the outcome is not too awful for their dog and the owner, because it is a real learning curve. Just my comment!!


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Mike, I too struggle with your same delima from time to time. It always amazes me the lack of due dilligence owners use when handing off their dogs. At any one time, I can name 5 dog "boarders" within an hour of me. Some I have gone behind to fix their handiwork and the common denominator with all is generally a flashy website/trailer/box. One advises clients that they cannot speak to other trainers/competitors at hunt test, wonder why? These clients must be as dense as a bowling ball because at one time their trainer kept all dogs in crates in an apartment. I was always told trainers do not speak ill of other trainers but as trainers, we do know the good ones and the bad ones. The old; they will eventually be found out never seems to happen with poor trainers.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

The problems is you don't know what you don't know. Newbies, and I still count myself as one, just don't know where to go, what to ask, and who to ask. Just a different view.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> As owner you are responsible for making sure such as you describe never happens. Step one is ask around for people with actual experience with a good trainer. Ask a lot of people, don't send you dog off to someone you don't know unless his or her reputation is impeccable. Then have lengthy conversations with the trainer, what is his training philosophy, does he adjust his program to fit the dog, what kind of facilities does he have. Go visit and watch him train dogs, ask for references. Then follow up with frequent phone conversations and visit your dog after a month or so. Most "well known" trainers are good because by being well known, people would know how they train and what kind of success they've had.
> 
> I can rattle ten trainer's names off the top of my head and though I haven't trained with but a few of them know a lot about their training expertise and can see just from watching them run their dogs how the dogs are treated, I would do my homework, but be very comfortable putting my dog with any of them.


The problems is you don't know what you don't know. Newbies, and I still count myself as one, just don't know where to go, what to ask, and who to ask. Just a different view.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Mike as Mary said word of mouth. I would suggest to the ones that had the problem is to spread the word about this guy. They are the ones that it actually happend to and it will not be heresay.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

This isin't all the same trainer I assume? I see nothing wrong with warning people of things like this. You need to know your facts before hand but assuming you do I don't see the harm. There are plenty of trainers out there that have these dogs living in pretty rough conditions unfortunately.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

I personally have never had a website and never will.Have never advertised and never will.EVERYTHING is word of mouth.With that being said I make it mandatory for each owner to come at the end of 4 wks to see what progress has been made.After that I ask the owners to come out as much as they can to make the transition.I have a couple that are out at least twice a week if not more,and it shows!!!!

As a couple have posted Mike,it should be up to the owners to do their homework and make sure things are going good.If not pull the dog out!
By the way,wish I could get some of those 6 mth clients...........Jim

As far as housing the animal,I would think the owners would ask and view and see other trainers firsthand.
I usually ask a prospective client to come out and train and watch dogs at various levels of training.Sometimes spending all day .


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Raymond Little said:


> Mike, I too struggle with your same delima from time to time. It always amazes me the lack of due dilligence owners use when handing off their dogs. At any one time, I can name 5 dog "boarders" within an hour of me. Some I have gone behind to fix their handiwork and the common denominator with all is generally a flashy website/trailer/box. One advises clients that they cannot speak to other trainers/competitors at hunt test, wonder why? These clients must be as dense as a bowling ball because at one time their trainer kept all dogs in crates in an apartment. I was always told trainers do not speak ill of other trainers but as trainers, we do know the good ones and the bad ones. The old; they will eventually be found out never seems to happen with poor trainers.


It is a lot easier to say wat you have said and I too know I was at fault for not asking but as a newcomer it is very difficult to stir up trouble. You want to stay out of trouble!!!IMO


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Unfortunately I think most of us are the same when it comes to this. When we are asked we'll tell it to yah straight but we have to be asked. This might keep things under the rug, and people have to continue learn from experience. There's a few I'd recommend, a few who I might not consider great trainers but I don't think would intentionally hurt a dog, a few who I have very distinct views about, and a few I've only heard things about. I'm very protective of my dogs if they're going somewhere I'll do the research. Any time I have an opportunity I'll try to put in a word for those I personally know to be good, but choice of dog trainers is a very personal choice. I don't consider it my place to go after the bad, unless someone asks me directly. I considered it bad form, it leads to gossip, slights, personal attacks, etc. and If I'm gonna say something good or bad about someone-something I want it to come from my mouth not the rumor mill.


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## CaptJoe (Apr 8, 2013)

I had the same problem. I thought since the trainer was a "PRO" that he knew what he was doing. I took my yellow lab to this guy and left him for a couple of months. When I would call for progress reports, he was doing great. When I called to tell him I was coming over to check him out, thats when he said "well, he's not doing this and not doing that". When I got there, as soon as he open the kennel, my dog ran to my truck jumped in and was shaking the 5 hr ride home. When he got home, he ate like he'd been starved for a week and he had burn scars on his neck from the collar. He didnt know any of the commands the trainer said he learned and to top it off, he was MEAN. When I would try to play with him, he would jump on me, snap his teeth at my face and hands. I had to keep my kids away from him and this was a dog that my little boy could ride before went to train. I finally had to put him down after he attacked my mother. I opened the back door, he ran in and jumped on her knocked her down and bit her arm. I didn't care how much money I had invested in him, that was the last straw. I took him outside and shot him. I knew it was because of the trainer but its one of those things I couldn't really prove but when I go to HT/FT I just spread the word about this guy. I've done my homework since then and I use a good trainer now but I'm always checking up on my dog.


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## RailRoadRetrievers (Feb 4, 2004)

A relative on my wife's side sent a chocolate "silver" lab to a trainer in his area. This trainer was reputable according to the internet and the fact that he has endorsements from some major companies in the hunting industry. 

After several attempts by the owner to see the dog's progress and several attempts to persuade the trainer to let him come out there a year passed with finally getting to see his pup (legally persuaded) in action. The dog did less than what he was capable of before he was dropped off, he did nothing, would not retrieve, wasn't the least bit obedient, and so forth.

What I don't understand is why didn't the trainer contact him and tell him his dog was not capable of performing simple tasks and wasn't worth pouring money into for no results, which by all indications shows he was just using this owner to finance his operation and taking advantage of this client.

My thoughts are, he is endorsed by major players, and obviously has clients who love their results, so if you were to report his practices, would it really matter. The guys dog may not have been capable of doing anything, but the trainer should have notified him of this as well, you would think at least after a month of trying to do different things. So thousands invested, to get nothing for his time.


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

jd6400 said:


> I personally have never had a website and never will.Have never advertised and never will.EVERYTHING is word of mouth.With that being said I make it mandatory for each owner to come at the end of 4 wks to see what progress has been made.After that I ask the owners to come out as much as they can to make the transition.I have a couple that are out at least twice a week if not more,and it shows!!!!
> 
> As a couple have posted Mike,it should be up to the owners to do their homework and make sure things are going good.If not pull the dog out!
> By the way,wish I could get some of those 6 mth clients...........Jim


Thank you for sharing some of things you 'expect' from your clients.

I wasn't a real noob because I had labs, belonged to a club, worked hunt tests, etc. But I went without dogs for about 2 years. In that time I moved to a new area. I got the puppy then joined a local club. I spoke with some folks and got some ideas of who the good trainers were in the area. I then went to a hunt test and watched them with the dogs they were running at various levels. I then spoke with a couple and asked for references. Now references can be shaky as you really never know if it some relation of theirs but in my case I was looking to validate what I saw in the trainer. I made a decision and have been more than happy with the results. 

My trainer also expected me to come by often as I could to watch him train and then when the time was right he trained me (I am still a work in progress) and transitioned the dog to me.

Perhaps some professional trainers will share their expectations of the clients as well as some things noobs should watch out for when choosing a professional trainer.

My 2 cents.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

GaryJ said:


> Thank you for sharing some of things you 'expect' from your clients.
> 
> I wasn't a real noob because I had labs, belonged to a club, worked hunt tests, etc. But I went without dogs for about 2 years. In that time I moved to a new area. I got the puppy then joined a local club. I spoke with some folks and got some ideas of who the good trainers were in the area. I then went to a hunt test and watched them with the dogs they were running at various levels. I then spoke with a couple and asked for references. Now references can be shaky as you really never know if it some relation of theirs but in my case I was looking to validate what I saw in the trainer. I made a decision and have been more than happy with the results.
> 
> ...


Good for you Gary!!!!!!Remember if you only play golf once or twice a month that's about as good as your gonna get,but play daily your probably gonna do good.No different with the dogs!!!!!This is something I try to preach but usually falls on deaf ears?????? Jim


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## Steve Thornton (Oct 11, 2012)

For me as a someone new to the sport and not knowing anyone, I had to rely on recommendations from people here. I felt much more at ease when multiple people recommend the trainer. While I would never advocate negative information be posted it would be nice if every new owner had a resource and the forsight to check. So far I am very happy with the guy and since then I have learned who some of his clients are and that has made me even more comfortable. 

So thank you all!

Steve


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

I tend to think that every well established pro trainer has had his share of successes and failures. Just like in any other business that deals directly with the consumer, you will have unhappy customers from time to time or sometimes you may just of produced a bad product. What the consumer needs to be on the look out for is the business that has a pattern of dissatisfied customers or poor customer service once a problem is identified. I think a lot of the dog people tend to keep their comments to themselves because sometimes you hear a pro complain about a customer and sometimes you hear customer complain about the pro and never know who is in the right.

Rather than trying to out the bad ones, maybe it would be more beneficial to promote the good ones. I would be much more inclined to use a pro that has had problems and dealt with them correctly versus one where the pro and customer place blame on one another. So where is the story of the pro who had a dissatisfied owner who offered to help fund sending the dog to a different pro or getting help outside of his kennel? Or are the egos just too big?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

CaptJoe said:


> I had the same problem. I thought since the trainer was a "PRO" that he knew what he was doing. I took my yellow lab to this guy and left him for a couple of months. When I would call for progress reports, he was doing great. When I called to tell him I was coming over to check him out, thats when he said "well, he's not doing this and not doing that". When I got there, as soon as he open the kennel, my dog ran to my truck jumped in and was shaking the 5 hr ride home. When he got home, he ate like he'd been starved for a week and he had burn scars on his neck from the collar. He didnt know any of the commands the trainer said he learned and to top it off, he was MEAN. When I would try to play with him, he would jump on me, snap his teeth at my face and hands. I had to keep my kids away from him and this was a dog that my little boy could ride before went to train. I finally had to put him down after he attacked my mother. I opened the back door, he ran in and jumped on her knocked her down and bit her arm. I didn't care how much money I had invested in him, that was the last straw. I took him outside and shot him. I knew it was because of the trainer but its one of those things I couldn't really prove but when I go to HT/FT I just spread the word about this guy. I've done my homework since then and I use a good trainer now but I'm always checking up on my dog.


I`ve got a couple stories like yours but only in reverse!!!!Super nice little chessie female ,just started TT...owner decides to take home and finish work himself.Next time I see the dog it`s a basket case.....I absolutely cried. Jim


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I knew I was lucky to have a couple really good mentors, but I am starting to understand just how lucky.

The problem as a noob is that you don't know how anything is supposed to look and you don't know enough to separate out BS. And you have to be very careful making judgments based on one observation on one day; we all know dogs have bad days and you might see something completely different tomorrow.

I would say the best thing is to ask around and see what you hear. In my experience you will start hearing good things about 2-3 guys in the area and bad things about 2-3 guys in the area pretty consistently. Then go watch a couple events or training days with those guys - if they don't invite you to a training day that would be a red flag to me personally.

Finally, watch the dogs coming off the truck. Are they generally alert, excited, and ready to go? Or are they slinking around, tail tucked, and looking like they would rather get back on the truck? The first time I dropped my dog off with a well-known FT trainer I was of course apprehensive, mainly because I had never done it before. When I saw the dog a month later (my choice), and I saw him come out of the truck and get all over the trainer just like he would do me, I was completely sold. That trainer currently has my dog up north, and I would highly recommend him to anybody - as long as they don't get my spot!!!

Another BIG consideration for me is the kennel. If a guy won't work hard at keeping the kennel clean (a relative term for sure) then I personally wonder about how hard he is working otherwise. YMMV.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Socks said:


> The problems is you don't know what you don't know. Newbies, and I still count myself as one, just don't know where to go, what to ask, and who to ask. Just a different view.


I remember being in your shoes 20 years ago, then there was no RTF to reference either. I needed help and didn't know where to go, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Pro trainer, so we went to our vet and the people we bought dog food from. They both mentioned the same guy, a working class amateur who we started training with. He knew a local field trial guy who demonstrated a couple 200 yard land blinds with his old retired Chocolate, Cheryl and I were so impressed with that dog handling on those blinds we couldn't imagine any dog doing better. That guy recommended two young dog trainers to us and we went with the Idaho guy who was Mark Henry. Mark was great and the rest is history, but looking back ours was a bit of a leap of faith though we did follow up closely with our dog.

John


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Any time I have an opportunity I'll try to put in a word for those I personally know to be good, but choice of dog trainers is a very personal choice. I don't consider it my place to go after the bad, unless someone asks me directly. I considered it bad form, it leads to gossip, slights, personal attacks, etc. and If I'm gonna say something good or bad about someone-something I want it to come from my mouth not the rumor mill.


I look at it the same way. Frankly, I doubt there is a pro out there that doesn't have a few unhappy ex-clients, whether justified or not--and everyone seems to love the pro who has their dog on the truck, whether justified or not. If someone asks for advice here, I will usually give suggestions and almost always cringe at one or two of the other suggestions that come up. But, since I haven't had any bad experiences personally with anyone currently training, I am not going to badmouth someone based only on what I do not know first hand--especially on the internet.

I think most of us here who know and see a lot of pros have opinions on both the good and bad ones and are very willing to recommend the ones we think are good (whether or not they are) but more reticent to say anything about the bad ones. There are some I would never use for one of my dogs and would say something to a family member or close friend but am going to keep my mouth shut with folks I don't know well.

At the end of the day, one has to do their own due diligence. Speaking to folks, clients and non-clients, the internet, etc., are all helpful. But before I put a dog with a pro I would visit their kennel, watch them train, watch their dogs at trials and tests, etc. to make sure I was comfortable. If the pro I put my dog with wanted me to stay away beyond some initial bonding period, I view that as a big red flag and would go get the dog ASAP. Unfortunately, I have the opposite problem--they call and tell me to come get my critter and to call them when I get something they can work with


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

I’ll go first. /paul is a straight up dog beater. I generally make sure that I’m not grounded before I pet his dogs. Been this way for years and getting worse all the time.
Beer thieving little bastard to boot.
Truth in advertising regards
Bubba


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

Ask for references from day training clients. They see a lot of what happens. Also, if the trainer's kennels, house & property are nasty guess what the conditions will be for your dog


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

To me this sits squarely on the shoulders of the owner. Due diligence, its as simple as that.


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## DropinBack (Sep 24, 2012)

Flat out tell people who and why... if its true there is no reason not to spread the word...


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

It goes back to that personal responsibility thing. Would you send your child off to a school you had not seen, had not checked references, had not met and worked with successful graduates? Never mind.
But it's the same thing. With ownership of a dog comes responsibility. And if you have verifiable first-hand information of an abusive or negligent trainer you owe it yourself, others in the game and your dog to spread the word.


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

I would think you would go and watch the pro you plan to use! I would check out the kennels and see the equipment he uses. After a couple of days watching him work with young dogs you should have a pretty good idea what your dog will be in for. I have a hard time paying a pro without seeing results! That's what you pay for! Would you make an investment that produced no profit? Then why would you just hand off your dog to someone without seeing his work and results. 
Warren price


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> It goes back to that personal responsibility thing. Would you send your child off to a school you had not seen, had not checked references, had not met and worked with successful graduates? Never mind.
> But it's the same thing. With ownership of a dog comes responsibility. And if you have verifiable first-hand information of an abusive or negligent trainer you owe it yourself, others in the game and your dog to spread the word.


You can still exercise due diligence and check references and still things go south. I've used multiple FT and HT pros since the early 1990's. Most of the time it was a positive experience but a few times it didn't work out not related to the dog's ability. Fortunately, those instances are the minority but it does get discouraging when it happens. But you move on and hope you make a better decision next time both for you and the dog.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

duk4me said:


> To me this sits squarely on the shoulders of the owner. Due diligence, its as simple as that.


I have to side with Tim on this one...I have been fortunate or cursed (depending on ones perspective) to be invited and tagged along to some different training session with some of the name and controversial characters of the sport....the rule of thumb was always "pay attention, do what you are asked and shut up"...kind of a spin on the "what goes on during training stays on the training field"

I have witnessed some very harsh trainers, tough but not abusive...some are still with us, many have long since gone to the great training ground in the sky..BUT you are talking about someone's livelyhood its not my position to pass judgment on how they train,if one of my friends had their dog with them and I felt like that trainer was mistreating or not showing due diligence in kenneling the dog then I would tell that owner ONLY...of course that trainer would never get my approval rating if asked by a third party,but I would also not expose them on a forum like this...


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

BonMallari said:


> I have to side with Tim on this one...I have been fortunate or cursed (depending on ones perspective) to be invited and tagged along to some different training session with some of the name and controversial characters of the sport....the rule of thumb was always "pay attention, do what you are asked and shut up"...kind of a spin on the "what goes on during training stays on the training field"
> 
> I have witnessed some very harsh trainers, tough but not abusive...some are still with us, many have long since gone to the great training ground in the sky..BUT you are talking about someone's livelyhood its not my position to pass judgment on how they train,if one of my friends had their dog with them and I felt like that trainer was mistreating or not showing due diligence in kenneling the dog then I would tell that owner ONLY...of course that trainer would never get my approval rating if asked by a third party,*but I would also not expose them on a forum like this...*


I totally agree. If anything I would think the forum would provide guidance on how to avoid or recognize unethical trainers which some posts have addressed.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

GaryJ said:


> the forum would provide guidance on how to avoid or recognize unethical trainers which some posts have addressed.


so what questions would you ask
what would you look for
how can you tell if a trainer is effective and not abusive

ie, when a noobie goes to a kennel, what, in your mind, makes a good trainer and the noobie should watch for?


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

I know this thread is in regards to pro trainers but I observed something sickening last weekend. In a Master test, a handler (amateur) was upset because his dog broke at the line. As he has walking back to his truck and reprimanding his dog, he kicked the dog in his side. The dog yelped loudly and hunched over. At that point the handler tried to cover-up his action by grabbing the dog and hugging it. Needless to say, he was reported to the event committee and hopefully he will be suspended indefinitely from future AKC hunt tests. That incident spread like wild fire throughout the hunt test and I hope I never see that handler at another test or I might read him the riot act.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

wheelhorse said:


> so what questions would you ask
> what would you look for
> how can you tell if a trainer is effective and not abusive
> 
> ie, when a noobie goes to a kennel, what, in your mind, makes a good trainer and the noobie should watch for?


look to see who else is using them, is the kennel clean, does it look like its run professionally, or does it look like its a fly by night operation,look to see what type of feed they are using...and then most of all, how do the dogs that they train look while at a FT/HT...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Labs R Us said:


> I know this thread is in regards to pro trainers but I observed something sickening last weekend. In a Master test, a handler (amateur) was upset because his dog broke at the line. As he has walking back to his truck and reprimanding his dog, he kicked the dog in his side. The dog yelped loudly and hunched over. At that point the handler tried to cover-up his action by grabbing the dog and hugging it. Needless to say, he was reported to the event committee and hopefully he will be suspended indefinitely from future AKC hunt tests. That incident spread like wild fire throughout the hunt test and I hope I never see that handler at another test or I might read him the riot act.


Damn Becky....It goes to show some folks are not dog people.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

If someone screwed up my dog I would not go on a forum calling him XYZ. I would have his name spelled correctly. Just me and I ain't always politically correct. Don


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> Damn Becky....It goes to show some folks are not dog people.


I know, I keep thinking about this dog and hoping he is okay. Another person who saw it happen said she wouldn't be surprised if the handler didn't rupture the dog's spleen. This dog comes from an awesome pedigree and has a wonderful/happy disposition. God, I hope he is okay.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Labs R Us said:


> I know, I keep thinking about this dog and hoping he is okay. Another person who saw it happen said she wouldn't be surprised if the handler didn't rupture the dog's spleen. This dog comes from an awesome pedigree and has a wonderful/happy disposition. God, I hope he is okay.


Myself also....Damn


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## PamK (Jul 10, 2010)

I've read a lot of posts where people ask about sending their dog off and how often they should expect contact. Most of the responses are the trainer will contact you when they can or don't bother them during the day when they are training. 

Then on this post I see that you should be out at the trainers watching what is going on.

This is why so many noobs are confused.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

PamK said:


> I've read a lot of posts where people ask about sending their dog off and how often they should expect contact. Most of the responses are the trainer will contact you when they can or don't bother them during the day when they are training.
> 
> Then on this post I see that you should be out at the trainers watching what is going on.
> 
> ...


We can only show and hopefully those who read and maybe just maybe understand what is being said will make a good decision on their investment and yes dogs can be an investment.....Money and their involvement with this animal.....


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

As a practical matter, other than reporting the "bad" trainer to the Better Business Bureau, I don't know what you can do to tell others about potential problems.

If I were looking for a trainer, I would do the following:

1. Go to events (Field Trials, Hunting Tests, etc.) and observe. Look at the dogs in action. Look at the trainer in action. Look at the relationship between dog and trainer. Consider how healthy the dogs look. Look at how clean the dog truck is. 
2. Visit the trainer and watch him/her train the dogs. Watch how the trainer interacts with his/her clients
3. Look at the kennel. See how clean it is, how the dogs are sheltered, the availability of water, ventiliation, etc. (One kennel I viewed had algae in the plastic water buckets for the dogs. I scratched that off the list)
4. Ask around.

Then go with your gut.


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## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

PamK said:


> I've read a lot of posts where people ask about sending their dog off and how often they should expect contact. Most of the responses are the trainer will contact you when they can or don't bother them during the day when they are training.
> 
> Then on this post I see that you should be out at the trainers watching what is going on.
> 
> This is why so many noobs are confused.


I see what you mean by noobs being confused by this thread and the other about how often to contact your pro. I think the difference is don't call your trainer on a daily basis just to chat about your dog unless it's important information being passed along. On this thread what is being said is, your trainer should have no obligations to you coming out and seeing your dog as long as you're not impeding your his work. He should also be welcoming you to come see his facilities and operation before your dog is on his truck.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> As a practical matter, other than reporting the "bad" trainer to the Better Business Bureau, I don't know what you can do to tell others about potential problems.
> 
> If I were looking for a trainer, I would do the following:
> 
> ...


There you go.....


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Watch how the dogs react with the trainer. In my opinion, hunkered down dogs equal abuse not strict training.


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## Henlee (Feb 10, 2013)

I would have to say that in the cases of animal abuse (i.e. Broken Rib and Starvation) You have a moral obligation to report it to the Sheriff's Dept.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

The problem with the OP is that everything is second hand information. I don't pass along second hand information, or information given to me in confidence. 

If someone were to ask me about trainer X, I might have them call my friend who had the first hand information, but I would not speak on things myself.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Newbs fall victim a lot. Tried refferring a friend to a well bred litter and a trainer I have personal experience with. Went with a cheap litter, then a trainer he was referred to by someone that if he knew what he was looking at would have not sent his dog to the trainer that produced the dog owned by the friend that referred him...... 2500 and four months later the dog is Ffed and that is about it. Mediocre OB and not running any handling drills at ten months old. I don't think the dog was mistreated, but ther are a lot of dog owners out there that do not know what a well trained dog looks like and mediocre trainers that produce mediocre dogs can make a living on that.


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## duckwater (Apr 23, 2010)

www.prta.net


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

duckwater said:


> www.prta.net


That is certainly one resource. However, there are excellent trainers who are not members and some I would not recommend who are.

As to the confusion about not calling all the time, I was one of the ones who recommended parsimony when calling and going to visit when deciding. I don't think the two are inconsistent. The good pros I know prefer to train dogs instead of talking on the phone all day but all encourage clients to come out any time and there are often clients training with them every day. Heck lots of big time folks buy houses near their pros' kennels and head off with them for their summer/winter trip.


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> Watch how the dogs react with the trainer. In my opinion, hunkered down dogs equal abuse not strict training.


I saw this type of behavior a couple years ago at a hunt test. A number of a certain pro's dogs were "hunkered down" as the pro was approaching the line. At one point, the pro dropped something and reached down to get it and the dog just immediately collapsed to the ground in fear. I contacted each of the owners of the dogs he was handling to let them know what I saw. (So glad the HT booklets give owners name/address.)


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm not sure if this is the same guy that Mike is talking about, but I see one very fequently at the tests in this area that fits this bill. EVERY dog this guy brings to the line looks scared to death to heel and handles out of fear. Its very apparrent his dogs are working off punishment... Unfortunately, there are "pro" trainers out there like that. Work a hunt test or 3 and you will easily pick out the heavy hands and the idiots. Dogs are all different, but you will see a common theme among the dogs and how they act, good or bad.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> Watch how the dogs react with the trainer. In my opinion, hunkered down dogs equal abuse not strict training.


I would agree with this to a point. If all the dogs come off the truck and immediately hunker down then that trainer is not for me. But you have to be careful with that. It could be that there was a rough day yesterday, or just a bad day today, particularly if there are a lot of dogs in the same stage of training. There may be some dogs that just aren't all that fired up about retrieving, and that's how they act every day. 

For example, I worked with a trainer last week that I actually sent a friend to with his dog. He had a couple dogs that were less than enthusiastic about retrieving, and they tended toward the "wrong" end of things. But when my friend's dog came out to work, she was happy, enthusiastic, and ready to go, as were all the other dogs I saw. My read is that he just has a couple dogs who don't have a lot of drive and who are basically being made to retrieve. I have seen this particular trainer working dogs at a couple hunt tests, and I like the way they look, act, and interact, so I feel pretty confident in my assessment. 

You really need to watch several dogs, probably on 2-3 different occasions in at least 2 different places, to really get a read on a particular trainer. And in the end, you still have to trust your gut.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

What these people are doing wrong is they are not sending their dogs to upper echelon HT trainers. Oh wait, my bad there is no such thing - 

Evan regards


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

wheelhorse said:


> so what questions would you ask
> what would you look for
> how can you tell if a trainer is effective and not abusive
> 
> ie, when a noobie goes to a kennel, what, in your mind, makes a good trainer and the noobie should watch for?





Ted Shih said:


> As a practical matter, other than reporting the "bad" trainer to the Better Business Bureau, I don't know what you can do to tell others about potential problems.
> 
> If I were looking for a trainer, I would do the following:
> 
> ...


Basically I did what Ted suggests. I am going to assume a noob or not they can recognize a content and happy dog when they see one.

When I asked for references I wanted to speak with people who had different types of training done. For example FF, CC, Advanced drills, etc. As for questions I tried to ask open ended questions rather than those with just a yes or no answer. I asked the references, as I said earlier these may or may not be perfect, question like –
How did you come to bring the dog to this trainer?
What type of training did you dog receive? You want to have some insight to how the trainer works concerning what you are sending your do to him/her for.
Is the trainer patient when the dog messes up? Can you provide an example?
How often did you see your dog during the training?
Do you think the trainer takes a cookie cutter approach or tailors the training to the individual dog?
Would you do anything different? If so what?

Sometimes the dialog creates other questions. I also asked the trainer some of the same questions.

Hope this helps.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Before sending mine away, I called a lot trainers and made some kennel visits. The one I selected isn't involved in trials or tests. At the time, all I wanted was a meat dog. He asked me to visit his facility and watch him work dogs. My breeder told me to look at details and not get caught up watching a dog that had been there 4 months. Pay attention to dogs that had been there for 3 weeks. See how they react to him... I saw nothing but tails high in the air and well fed dogs in spotless kennels. His finished product was exacyly what he told me it would be. 

You can't slam trainers on a forum and put the forum owners at risk, but you can do as Labs R Us did and make calls to owners. I would show someone else what I am seeing just to get a 2nd opinion before calling. 

Don't mess with daughter, don't mess with my dog...


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

Duckquilizer said:


> I'm not sure if this is the same guy that Mike is talking about, but I see one very fequently at the tests in this area that fits this bill. EVERY dog this guy brings to the line looks scared to death to heel and handles out of fear. Its very apparrent his dogs are working off punishment.


Exactly. This could be the same pro as he is from your neck of the woods ... the south. He was up here training and running dogs during our cool Wisconsin summer a couple years ago.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Some dogs are drama queens. One of mine routinely gets under my feet then screams bloody murder when I step on a foot, at pretty much every test, I swear she does it on purpose. I have another one that ducks/cringes when stuff moves near her or startles her, like someone coming suddenly around the holding blind, or pick up the handler's gun, judge swings their book around, that type of movement. She's always been that way, and I don't even use a heeling stick, nor a handlers gun in training even, but, you'd think by watching her reactions sometimes, she's been beaten with multiple objects. Maybe a broom fell on her as a puppy, I don't know, but she puts on an Oscar worthy performance when we're at a HT. One judge this summer decided to use their book to block this dog's view after I pointed out the kid was still planting the blind as we were walking to the line, she literally moved into my dog using her book shoved in her face as I was trying to get her back into the holding blind, dog didn't want to come back out of the holding blind after that. Dogs are not human, but I swear, sometimes they have the instincts of a two year old bent on embarrassing the parent.

I try to look at dogs overall with a pro, not just isolated incidences, and while I see stuff I don't like at a test, I'd want to see the regular training/living as well before I start trashtalking a pro and telling people to stay away from them. I watch lots of things at events that are important to me, beyond performance, not just how the dogs are at the line, like do the dogs get staked out or aired ever or are they on the truck all the livelong day. When I stay at motel, I see what pros are up and airing the dogs first, who was last one out, who parked the rig and went to the bar, who slept in a tent next to the rig, who seems to have an inordinate amount of barkers. Are the majority of dogs in good shape physically, knowing young males can be hard to keep weight on, some dogs might be blowing coats, had an illness, etc. Some dogs are new to the pro, came with baggage. Snap judgments can be easy, I do it too often as well, but, there is always more to the story, and while I may not personally care for some or all of it, doesn't mean the pro is a bad one, just not my type.

There are bad pros out there just like there are bad owners/amateur trainers. What appears to be cruelty to some, is just training to others, while sometimes, it is just ignorance. Sometimes, there is flat out ripoff, criminal negligence, as has been posted here. Of course I'd like to be part of a lynch mob for those, but, care needs to be taken, emotions run hot with our dogs. Due diligence is on the owner, from choosing the puppy/breeder, to choosing the trainer. Easier said than done. How anyone can be stopped from truly harmful behavior and/or screwing clients? No easy answers, except, has to hit them in the pocketbook, usually, and word of mouth is about the only option unless there is some viable proof that can be used for actual charges, lawsuit, something "formal". But, I need to see for myself and/or from those I trust before I try to ruin someone's reputation or livelihood.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Labs R Us said:


> Exactly. This could be the same pro as he is from your neck of the woods ... the south. He was up here training and running dogs during our cool Wisconsin summer a couple years ago.


I'm sorry, I promise the rest of us aren't like that down here. I can name off 10 guys to that one I would gladly send a dog too.. Person to person he is a pretty nice guy. Person to dog, he shouldn't be doing.

Kim, with the guy on my mind, every dog acts this way. They may not be beaten or starved, but they are ALL scared for some reason. Maybe its just too many corrections and no praise. My gut says otherwise...


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I would agree with this to a point. If all the dogs come off the truck and immediately hunker down then that trainer is not for me. But you have to be careful with that. It could be that there was a rough day yesterday, or just a bad day today, particularly if there are a lot of dogs in the same stage of training. There may be some dogs that just aren't all that fired up about retrieving, and that's how they act every day.
> 
> For example, I worked with a trainer last week that I actually sent a friend to with his dog. He had a couple dogs that were less than enthusiastic about retrieving, and they tended toward the "wrong" end of things. But when my friend's dog came out to work, she was happy, enthusiastic, and ready to go, as were all the other dogs I saw. My read is that he just has a couple dogs who don't have a lot of drive and who are basically being made to retrieve. I have seen this particular trainer working dogs at a couple hunt tests, and I like the way they look, act, and interact, so I feel pretty confident in my assessment.
> 
> You really need to watch several dogs, probably on 2-3 different occasions in at least 2 different places, to really get a read on a particular trainer. And in the end, you still have to trust your gut.


WHOA>>>>WHOA...les than enthusiastic,made to retrieve?Owner is notified to come out and evaluate whether any more training should take place!!!!!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I saw this type of behavior a couple years ago at a hunt test. A number of a certain pro's dogs were "hunkered down" as the pro was approaching the line. At one point, the pro dropped something and reached down to get it and the dog just immediately collapsed to the ground in fear. I contacted each of the owners of the dogs he was handling to let them know what I saw. (So glad the HT booklets give owners name/address.)




{ QUOTE}
Some dogs are drama queens. One of mine routinely gets under my feet then screams bloody murder when I step on a foot, at pretty much every test, I swear she does it on purpose. I have another one that ducks/cringes when stuff moves near her or startles her, like someone coming suddenly around the holding blind, or pick up the handler's gun, judge swings their book around, that type of movement. She's always been that way, and I don't even use a heeling stick, nor a handlers gun in training even, but, you'd think by watching her reactions sometimes, she's been beaten with multiple objects. Maybe a broom fell on her as a puppy, I don't know, but she puts on an Oscar worthy performance when we're at a HT. One judge this summer decided to use their book to block this dog's view after I pointed out the kid was still planting the blind as we were walking to the line, she literally moved into my dog using her book shoved in her face as I was trying to get her back into the holding blind, dog didn't want to come back out of the holding blind after that. Dogs are not human, but I swear, sometimes they have the instincts of a two year old bent on embarrassing the parent. {QUOTE}


Thanks KIM

Hopefully people will learn something about dogs from your post. Having been in the problem dog business for a while,,, I can tell you that when people see a dog behave a certain way they almost always cry abuse and they are usually very wrong. 

pete


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

Duckquilizer said:


> I'm sorry, I promise the rest of us aren't like that down here. I can name off 10 guys to that one I would gladly send a dog too.. Person to person he is a pretty nice guy. Person to dog, he shouldn't be doing.


Oh sorry, I didn't mean to imply that all trainers from the south are tough on their dogs … just this one in particular. I know a few down in that area that are awesome that I would send my dogs to. Poor trainers can be found in any part of the country, but if they come up here and run their dogs and I see a suspicious pattern of behavior in a number of dogs, you can be assured I will be contacting the owners.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Some dogs are drama queens. Dogs are not human, but I swear, sometimes they have the instincts of a two year old bent on embarrassing the parent


LOL--like the story of the kids who when the preacher came to dinner decided it would be fun to flinch every time the dad lifted his hand off the table 

Looking at all the dogs is a good point. I know some gundog/HT trainers who get in some dogs with less ability than the owner thinks they have and when the pro tries to send him home, the owner keeps asking to go a few more months and the pro does the best with what is there until finally the owner wises up.

Of course, you could always look on Yelp or other review sites--you can get some really good information from the general public  This one written about an Upper Echelon, A List, Lots of Pelts, FT pro tickles me:


> the dogs are shocked repeatedly until he feels they are doing want he wants them to do. i can only imagine what the dogs are going through when he takes them off the property for 5-6 hours at a time where no one can hear their cries. my heart bleeds every day for these's pets.


I am sure those dogs really hate the 5-6 hours he takes them off to get birds...


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> LOL--like the story of the kids who when the preacher came to dinner decided it would be fun to flinch every time the dad lifted his hand off the table
> 
> Looking at all the dogs is a good point. I know some gundog/HT trainers who get in some dogs with less ability than the owner thinks they have and when the pro tries to send him home, the owner keeps asking to go a few more months and the pro does the best with what is there until finally the owner wises up.
> 
> ...


Very good point.....Some of us are "public school teachers"who have to work with what we get ,others are "privateschool teachers"that have the luxury of removing said student if it doesn`t "fit the mold" either way,honesty is a must.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

When I got my first dog I had no clue who to bring him to for training. I did research different trainers/breeders and I learned about various dogs and pedigrees and finally settled on a breeding. I didn't get to pick a pup out of the litter I settled on because there was only one pup left. While I was waiting to pick my pup up I researched as many trainers as I could find that were within a 4-5 hr drive from me. Luckily there were quite a few. I went to their kennels, watched them train dogs, walked through the kennels, talked with owners of dogs in training and even asked various trainers about each other. I was very lucky to have a good number of quality trainers in my general area. This also made things difficult for me. I didn't know who to send my dog to. What eventually sealed the deal for me was when I asked the trainers , there was 5 that I spoke to, what they thought about each other 4 of the 5 all had very neutral and even a few negative comments about each other. The trainer I chose had nothing but good things to say about the other trainers. The one I chose also happened to be my pups breeder. I've been with him for 9 years now and he's trained 3 of my dogs. 

As others have said I think the burden is completely on the owner to do his/her research before choosing a trainer. Even then that owner has to become involved in the dogs training and become a partner in the dogs training. This may be harsh but I think issues like this can arise because an owner is lazy. Ignorance is no excuse. I had never owned a retriever and had now idea how to train a dog to do anything but basic OB. The research I did wasn't difficult to do and greatly helped me put my dogs in very good care and training.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> The problem with the OP is that everything is second hand information. I don't pass along second hand information, or information given to me in confidence.
> 
> If someone were to ask me about trainer X, I might have them call my friend who had the first hand information, but I would not speak on things myself.


This is also largely my viewpoint too. However I wil share what I can personally attest to. For example, I got a dog in that was recovering from a couple of infections and was losing all it's hair, conditions that developed at its first trainer. I'll save all the details because we've all heard similiar stories but, suffice it to say that what the owners relayed to me was really shocking, and I've heard and seen some bad dog treatment. However the dog is beautiful now and doing well. So all I could attest to as far as trainer XYZ is how that dog looked etc., when it came to me. Since then I've "met" that certain trainer at a recent outdoors show and lets just say it amazes me that anyone would buy the dogs he was selling much less use him for training. I've also learned that another client had a experience with him that was full of red flags and he bailed out after seeing them. So, in that case I would refer people asking about XYZ to contact my two clients for details but also share what I saw first hand. 
It is a tough place to be in for trainer. I never bad mouth any other trainer but I will tell folks how I honestly feel in a tactfull and professional manner and let them make the decision.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

jd6400 said:


> WHOA>>>>WHOA...les than enthusiastic,made to retrieve?Owner is notified to come out and evaluate whether any more training should take place!!!!!


I did not ask this particular trainer whether he had had that conversation with the owners, but I would bet that he had. I do know of others who have tried to send dogs home multiple times only to be rebuffed. I would agree that an ethical trainer should (i) put in the time to see if the dog really doesn't like to retrieve and (ii) when he has decided that's the case, should inform the client that the dog would be better off going home or possibly to another trainer. I certainly believe some trainers/programs don't fit some dogs, for whatever unknown reason, and a change in trainer may bring about a change in the dog.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Jim Danis said:


> What eventually sealed the deal for me was when I asked the trainers , there was 5 that I spoke to, what they thought about each other 4 of the 5 all had very neutral and even a few negative comments about each other. The trainer I chose had nothing but good things to say about the other trainers.


I'm with you here. I think it shows a self-confidence that I would like to have in my trainer or any other professional I hire.

In my profession, I generally know so much more than my clients (at least I hope so!) that it would be easy for me to shine them on about how much wrong stuff the previous person may have done. However, if you weren't there on a daily basis when the meetings were going on, you really don't have a good basis to critique unless something is just flat wrong under all circumstances. Plus, think about how easy it is for your competitors to to the same thing to you.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i have had one of mike perry's bitches at my "micro kennel" to assist mike with a breeding to a nice local yellow hrch male. mike and i are meeting on saturday at a club training day to get her back home.

i think mike may have started this thread in part so that i would give her a nice bath, aroma therapy fragrance application and deferminator treatment early saturday morning. don't "out me" dude, she is in grade A condition and you will be PLEASED to know that i didn't try to train her at all!!!!;-)

jmc


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I would agree with this to a point. If all the dogs come off the truck and immediately hunker down then that trainer is not for me. But you have to be careful with that. It could be that there was a rough day yesterday, or just a bad day today, particularly if there are a lot of dogs in the same stage of training. There may be some dogs that just aren't all that fired up about retrieving, and that's how they act every day.
> 
> For example, I worked with a trainer last week that I actually sent a friend to with his dog. He had a couple dogs that were less than enthusiastic about retrieving, and they tended toward the "wrong" end of things. But when my friend's dog came out to work, she was happy, enthusiastic, and ready to go, as were all the other dogs I saw. My read is that he just has a couple dogs who don't have a lot of drive and who are basically being made to retrieve. I have seen this particular trainer working dogs at a couple hunt tests, and I like the way they look, act, and interact, so I feel pretty confident in my assessment.
> 
> You really need to watch several dogs, probably on 2-3 different occasions in at least 2 different places, to really get a read on a particular trainer. And in the end, you still have to trust your gut.


I was not referring to a particular trainer and certainly would not make any assumptions based on one or two dogs. I have however seen a trainer at multiple hunt tests where every dog is hunkered down, tail between their legs. This same trainer was seen at a training day where a lot of heavy pressure was applied. If ever asked, I would never recommend this person.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Jim Danis said:


> When I got my first dog I had no clue who to bring him to for training. I did research different trainers/breeders and I learned about various dogs and pedigrees and finally settled on a breeding. I didn't get to pick a pup out of the litter I settled on because there was only one pup left. While I was waiting to pick my pup up I researched as many trainers as I could find that were within a 4-5 hr drive from me. Luckily there were quite a few. I went to their kennels, watched them train dogs, walked through the kennels, talked with owners of dogs in training and even asked various trainers about each other. I was very lucky to have a good number of quality trainers in my general area. This also made things difficult for me. I didn't know who to send my dog to. What eventually sealed the deal for me was when I asked the trainers , there was 5 that I spoke to, what they thought about each other 4 of the 5 all had very neutral and even a few negative comments about each other. The trainer I chose had nothing but good things to say about the other trainers. The one I chose also happened to be my pups breeder. I've been with him for 9 years now and he's trained 3 of my dogs.
> 
> As others have said I think the burden is completely on the owner to do his/her research before choosing a trainer. Even then that owner has to become involved in the dogs training and become a partner in the dogs training. This may be harsh but I think issues like this can arise because an owner is lazy. Ignorance is no excuse. I had never owned a retriever and had now idea how to train a dog to do anything but basic OB. The research I did wasn't difficult to do and greatly helped me put my dogs in very good care and training.


I know exactly who you are talking about. He is also training a friend's pup that he got from me. A fine gentleman too,,


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> I was not referring to a particular trainer and certainly would not make any assumptions based on one or two dogs. I have however seen a trainer at multiple hunt tests where every dog is hunkered down, tail between their legs. This same trainer was seen at a training day where a lot of heavy pressure was applied. If ever asked, I would never recommend this person.


I'm right with you. I have seen some of the same things and I feel the same way you do about them.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I did not ask this particular trainer whether he had had that conversation with the owners, but I would bet that he had. I do know of others who have tried to send dogs home multiple times only to be rebuffed. I would agree that an ethical trainer should (i) put in the time to see if the dog really doesn't like to retrieve and (ii) when he has decided that's the case, should inform the client that the dog would be better off going home or possibly to another trainer. I certainly believe some trainers/programs don't fit some dogs, for whatever unknown reason, and a change in trainer may bring about a change in the dog.


Gotcha Steve.....agree...Jim


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Unfortunately many new people to the dog games and particularly the Hunt Test side but not exclusively, have no idea what they are not getting for their money and can be an easy mark for the flash and BS of a less than desireable trainer. I have judged some competitive events and seen a levels of work there while being amazed that people are actually giving money to some of these trainers.


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*It amazes me the amount of folks that come up and ask "can you train my dog" to which I reply "ummm no." Folks send their dogs off with folks without checking on their references, abilities, or even facilities. I am sure I could get 5 or 6 dogs to train in a week just because I drive a truck and have a **chassis mount on the back......that does not make me a dog trainer. Folks need to check out folks before they send their kids off to camp. I have been blessed to have some great folks work with my dogs, great trainers that are great people. Try to help those "newbies" out and direct them in the right direction. The retriever community is a fairly small community, if your "dog friends" don't know sickem about the trainer there is probably a reason!!

No Shingle here Regards,

Aaron*


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

You can tell a lot of people, just by watching them at a dog trial/test and looking at their truck. Are the dogs doing good work? Are the dogs good citizens, with a desire to work? Is the truck clean, or does it smell to high heaven? Is the truck/trailer a decent ride, or are the dogs bouncing around in a piece of junk. Seek out clients who use this trainer. How long have they been clients? What kind of success have they had with their dogs? What is a typical training day? What are the kennels like, and GO AND SEE where your dog will stay and train. And, if you put your dog with a trainer, get over there after two weeks and see how things are going. Go and train with the trainer as often as you can--throw birds, sit on the line, ask questions. All of the right pieces have to be there--or find another trainer. In our years with pros, we chose one that just wasn't a very good trainer (moved that dog to another trainer after 8 months with first trainer and had good results). This "pro" is no longer training dogs. A second dog that was with a very well-known field trial trainer, suffered a severe eye injury. Dr. Olivero said someone hit him hard with an object--bat or a board is my guess, and the dog had a deep eye injury. Dr O said that whoever hurt him had to have known because his head would have been very swollen on the outside. The injury did not affect his vision as a young dog, but every year when Dr O would examine him, he would slightly show his teeth. He didn't want anyone getting near that eye. Needless to say, we have never used that pro again. Third pro with issues just decided he wasn't going to train on a regular schedule, and when he did train was using excessive pressure. His force fetch involved putting a bottle cap against the dog's ear. Our dog has the little white hairs and lumpy scars on that ear as a result, and so do other dogs who went through FF with this pro. We pulled ours when he was in the process of moving 5 hours farther away, and buying land, building kennels, etc. etc.--pulled for those reasons and just lucked out to get our dog out of there earlier than most others. We were NOT newbies with this pro, and we should have been more observant. This pro has also quit the business. Took us 2 years to put our dog back together and she has had a pretty successful field trial career thanks to Rorems.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

wheelhorse said:


> so what questions would you ask
> what would you look for
> how can you tell if a trainer is effective and not abusive
> 
> ie, when a noobie goes to a kennel, what, in your mind, makes a good trainer and the noobie should watch for?


All trainers will need to be a bit hard at times. The good ones don't go there often. Look at the way his/her dogs come off the truck and to the line. Look how they interact with the trainier. Ask if you can come out several times to observe.

Positives on all of these should show an atmosphere where dogs and handlers can thrive.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

As a marshal at a test years ago (~10), I heard the thud of a boot on ribs to a dog after the dog failed on a mark and the pro griped aloud while leaving the area that the "GD" owner (a very wealthy person who i know of) took him pheasant hunting and screwed him up. My dog did great on the same set up, and I was a pretty much novice... I decided at that point it'd be a cold day in hell I'd use just any pro. Never have to this day since I still like to do comp obedience too, so if they are sitting somewhere in a kennel, kind of hard to do that. I'm fine w/ my choices, yet some think "just" a JH or SH isn't enough. Well, that's up to the individual. At least I know what my temperaments really are. 
I'm not hard on my dogs, but I am insistent. So if they are soft, I know they are soft , because I'm doing all the training! Just a thought.

PS I have never refered anyone to that pro again. However, there ARE pros who consistent have great relationships w/ their client dogs that I WILL refer to. Just wanted to clarify. So yes, word of mouth, and YES go to your local hunt tests and see for yourselves!!!!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

When I bought my husband(ex) his first dog, we looked for a pro in the area (within a 50 mile radius). Being complete noobies, we really didn't know where to even begin to look for a pro, didn't know about this resource, and when we went to a local AKC field trial, no one would give us the time of day. Finally tracked down a "local legend" who shall remain anonymous and he recommended a guy. This "trainer" kept the dog for 4 months and didn't do much with him-at all. He decided to quit the business and had us go to another local guy who trained very frequently with the "legend". The dog went there for another 4 months, were he went from a working weight of 115 (Yes, he was a huge dog) down to 85lbs of skin and bones, hair falling out, muscles mass being broken down due to starving. They had a personal lab that weighed 45lbs and they were feeding all the dogs the same amount they were feeding her. Their excuses were: "As long as he is producing stool, he is getting enough to eat", like what, they think that could achieve a non-crapping dog if they got the balance right?!! "He has too much energy/go if we feed him more." Yeah, nothing like a lethargic dog to keep him from creeping/breaking. 
Now the whole purpose of getting a trainer within a short driving distance was so that the husband could check on him often and to go train with the trainer. When I went to see him at the 3 month mark,I could see ribs when standing, no fat layer on head, dull eyes, and very dry flakily coat. I flat out told the trainer that if he wasn't charging enough to feed the dog, that I would bring him an extra bag of food and that he was to feed him to his weight/needs. On the way home my husband got an ass chewing about not saying anything to the trainer when he was seeing the dog twice a week. Well, he didn't want to "make waves" with the Pro, since he didn't know anything about dog training (or dogs in general it seems). When he went back in a couple of days, he caught a bunch of crap for having a "pushy, bitchy, wife". I went back at the four month mark when I heard that they had a litter of pups that were dying off at six weeks due to parvo, and picked up the dog. They were trying to blame our dog for not being vaccinated- he was right before he went to the first guy. 
The not so funny thing is, he probably was- dogs can shed viral cells through fecal matter when vaccinated with modified live vaccines, especially when they are under extreme stress- like starving to death. I feel for the lost pups, but I think that Karma was involved. 
Moral of the story- unless you already have friends or knowledge of competitive dogs and trainers, you really don't know where to even begin, so are very likely to go with the first person available and believe what ever they say. And for those that have to send their dogs further away and cannot go see them often and rely on emails and phones calls, they really are at the mercy of the trainer. If they don't return calls and emails, many just hope for the best and wait until they can accrue enough vacation time, cash, etc to be able to go see for themselves.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Y'all Scare me with these stories, sad thing is I could put a few out there myself. Makes me think that my stubborn bitch had it pretty good, even if I didn't know what I was doing. At least I know who's to Blame for anything that might be wrong with her, and I know she wasn't starved or beat. Although she being one of those drama queens she probably has everyone else convinced that she's been torture all her life. Just Too Many NO's in that girl's life, and she sure let's everyone know it.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> I have to side with Tim on this one...I have been fortunate or cursed (depending on ones perspective) to be invited and tagged along to some different training session with some of the name and controversial characters of the sport....the rule of thumb was always "pay attention, do what you are asked and shut up"...kind of a spin on the "what goes on during training stays on the training field"
> 
> I was invited by friends to train with their pro when I was in that neck of the woods. Helped with setups and watched the pro run his first dog. Went bad very quickly. He lost his temper and took it out on the dog. I turned to my friend and said "I've seen enough. G-bye." Left quietly. The pro called me the next morning with apologies for losing his temper "in front a new-comer." We're on good terms and I like him personally but, I won't go back to train with him and if asked about him I simply say "I've watched him work dogs and I would not send my dog to him." Yes you have to get firm with dogs when necessary but abuse is not acceptable.


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## RedstarKennels (Dec 22, 2007)

Just go to a Hunt Test or Field Trial...and watch his other dogs run before you place your dog....You can learn so much...from How the trainer gets a dog out of the dog box....is there a process?
How does he and his dogs approach the holding blinds...? Is there a methology?
Hows does he treat his dogs on and off leash...
Line Manners.???
How do the dogs run?
The dogs speak Volumns.....Just watch....I form my opinions at the tests...via the dogs....and might even schedule a visit.... and then do my due diligence....
I also go on GUT Feelings... I can tell when a Person Loves their dogs and is passionate....
and YOU as the Owner should keep up with progress....go watch....You know your dog...if you don't like how your dog is acting...Pull the dog.....
Lots of Great Trainers out there....and the Ones that are less....I pray for the dogs....Do your homework.....
Nothing better than our babies...and furry partners....


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## Jconway (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm reading about all these story's about things people have seen at a test or a trial but I don't see anybody doing anything about it... nobody calls these people out nobody confronts these folks looks to me everyone just turns a bind eye and says "I'll never send my dog to that guy" or "I'll never recommend him"! These guys should be called out and confronted on the spot!


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Jconway said:


> I'm reading about all these story's about things people have seen at a test or a trial but I don't see anybody doing anything about it... nobody calls these people out nobody confronts these folks looks to me everyone just turns a bind eye and says "I'll never send my dog to that guy" or "I'll never recommend him"! These guys should be called out and confronted on the spot!


Have you taken action as you suggest yet yourself?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Jconway said:


> I'm reading about all these story's about things people have seen at a test or a trial but I don't see anybody doing anything about it... nobody calls these people out nobody confronts these folks looks to me everyone just turns a bind eye and says "I'll never send my dog to that guy" or "I'll never recommend him"! * These guys should be called out and confronted on the spot*!



Easier said than done...You do that at a field trial and the next thing you know the accuser will find themselves in front of an AKC disciplinary board, people are still entitled to their due process, so you better damn make sure you have physical proof along with documentation and witnesses to back you up before you make a serious charge...that and make sure you are able to duck a punch or deliver one too


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> .that and make sure you are able to duck a punch or deliver one too


And some have thumbs like tree stumps so if they get you by the ear you are done.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I agree with just about all that has been said. My personal experience is that very few owners would actually come and see their dog while in training. Often, a wife, or in some cases a personal assistant, would drop the dog off and then three to four months later the wife would come pick the dog up. The owner/handler would not have a clue as to the dogs abilities.

Nothing against wives but they weren't the one that was going to be working the dog.

I went through several iterations of methods of keeping the owners informed of their dogs progress.
At first, I would verbally tell the kennel owner and when the clients called he would update them.
After I while I discovered that this wasn't working very well. 
Then I started sending weekly emails directly to the owners as to the progress
I rarely heard back from the clients.
So, this is what got me started in doing videos and posting on Facebook.

Yes, I had a couple of bad experiences with owners. We took in mostly hunting labs and some not so good of a dog. I had to send a couple home or tell the owner not to put any more money into the dog. 

Some dogs don't do very well in a kennel situation. I had a couple that got really skinny as they ate poorly and paced the kennel run constantly. However, the most common situation, was I had to put the dogs on a diet as they were terribly over weight when they came for training. 

One of the dogs I sent home was a poor marker. I ran into the owner at a service station about five years later. I didn't remember him until he came up and introduced himself and told me his dogs name. I thought to myself "uh oh, get ready". But he was very polite, told me how obedient his dog was in a duck hunting situation and how well he did during his ensuing duck seasons. He went on the say that he told everyone about me in a positive light. 
So, sometimes you never know how people will react. But I agree that it is the owners responsibility to due their do homework. But often they do not.


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## GunDawgSouth1 (Jul 30, 2013)

*Do your homework...*

Go to a trial or hunt test and watch your trainers dogs...Keep a close eye on the tail...Heavy handed trainers or heavy ecollar trainers are very obvious...Happy well-trained dogs remain happy and well trained, not hacked, robotic and out of gas! This is a good topic!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Jconway said:


> I'm reading about all these story's about things people have seen at a test or a trial but I don't see anybody doing anything about it... nobody calls these people out nobody confronts these folks looks to me everyone just turns a bind eye and says "I'll never send my dog to that guy" or "I'll never recommend him"! These guys should be called out and confronted on the spot!


Since you seem to be quoting something I wrote, I'll respond in my case. I only *heard* the thump. No one else was nearby, so no real proof... As Bon states below, you better darned well have proof if making charges at a hunt test, etc.
Who do you think the committee would "rather" believe, a relative "novice" or a pro?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Jconway said:


> I'm reading about all these story's about things people have seen at a test or a trial but I don't see anybody doing anything about it... nobody calls these people out nobody confronts these folks looks to me everyone just turns a bind eye and says "I'll never send my dog to that guy" or "I'll never recommend him"! These guys should be called out and
> 
> confronted on the spot![/QUOTE
> 
> See #83 I agree


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> Easier said than done...You do that at a field trial and the next thing you know the accuser will find themselves in front of an AKC disciplinary board, people are still entitled to their due process, so you better damn make sure you have physical proof along with documentation and witnesses to back you up before you make a serious charge...that and make sure you are able to duck a punch or deliver one too


I have been involved with a couple of handler abuse inquires at hunt test and they are no fun for sure...So far there has not been a person that wants to put their name on paper and file the complaint...Before you put your name on the committee list be sure you are ready to do the right thing if necessary ....Disciplinary action is no game ...Steve S


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

steve schreiner said:


> I have been involved with a couple of handler abuse inquires at hunt test and they are no fun for sure...So far there has not been a person that wants to put their name on paper and file the complaint...Before you put your name on the committee list be sure you are ready to do the right thing if necessary ....Disciplinary action is no game ...Steve S


Man, you're not kidding. I was involved in one of those a number of years ago...not fun. I was a witness to only part of the altercation and I was very uncomfortable being pulled into it. I did not know the handler or the dog but it was not the handler's dog...the handler was handling for the owner who was judging another flight if I am not mistaken. Anyway, there was an aggression issue that came about with the dog and the handler did what she thought was appropriate and wound up laying on top of the offending dog. I didn't see what caused her to react, just saw her on top of the dog. I didn't see anything that qualified as abuse in my book. Damn dog was huge, probably weighed nearly as much as the handler. She was very shaken by the incident but it seemed that she acted appropriately from what I could tell. Better to have what happened occur than to be having someone's innocent dog having to be stitched up because the aggressor was not dealt with. I think when it was all said and done there was no disciplinary action but it was a very touchy and uncomfortable situation for basically everyone involved. I will be glad if I never have to "testify" at one of those inquiries again.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

personally have never had a website and never will.Have never advertised and never will.EVERYTHING is word of mouth.With that being said I make it mandatory for each owner to come at the end of 4 wks to see what progress has been made.After that I ask the owners to come out as much as they can to make the transition.I have a couple that are out at least twice a week if not more,and it shows!!!!

As a couple have posted Mike,it should be up to the owners to do their homework and make sure things are going good.If not pull the dog out!
By the way,wish I could get some of those 6 mth clients...........Jim

As far as housing the animal,I would think the owners would ask and view and see other trainers firsthand.
I usually ask a prospective client to come out and train and watch dogs at various levels of training.Sometimes spending all day .​

Last edited by jd6400; 08-21-2013 at 03:10 PM.​Jim Weitzel
Proud member of Ole Roy prostaff

It sounds like you learned well from me son. I never advertised either and all clients were from word of mouth.​


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## chrokeva (Oct 7, 2014)

This has been a sad read. 
I think that there are situations that are clearly abusive and anytime a pro or amateur acts out of anger or frustration it would fall under abuse but many times this stuff is subjective. Some people feel training with a e-collar (in any form) is abusive others don't. Some feel that using force or force fetching is cruel others feel it is just part of training. Some people feel that if you tell a dog what to do you are being cruel. "Why can't a dog just be a dog" was screamed by one women at a group training session towards another amateur because she felt treat training was the only "right" way to train and making a correction of any kind was cruel. Personally I have not sent my dog to a pro but if I did decide to I would make sure that his training philosophies were the same as mine and that the type of dog I had would thrive under the trainer I picked as not all dogs are created equal nor are all pros. You have to educate yourself on dogs even if you are going to send your dog to a trainer in order to make a informed decision on the trainer you choose for your dog. I think we owe are dogs that much.


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## cowdoc87 (Dec 18, 2014)

It doesn't take an expert in dog body language to pick out the pros who's dogs aren't enjoying themselves. What constitutes abuse, what is provable, and how widespread it is are the tough ones to answer, much less what if anything should/could be done about it. For every "abusive" pro, there are probably ten that just aren't very good,but have a $75,000 rig full of client dogs running hunt tests every weekend. All things considered, a newbie owner who buys a "shock collar" to "train" his dog, having no idea what he's doing, is probably a much more common and sad problem, but that's another subject.


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## Terry Britton (Jul 3, 2003)

Socks said:


> The problems is you don't know what you don't know. Newbies, and I still count myself as one, just don't know where to go, what to ask, and who to ask. Just a different view.


It doesn't help when the senior members of the club you are just getting acquainted with is pointing you to the bad trainer with a history of abuse. It just took a few visits and observing at hunt tests to figure out the differences between trainers.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I agree with just about all that has been said. My personal experience is that very few owners would actually come and see their dog while in training. Often, a wife, or in some cases a personal assistant, would drop the dog off and then three to four months later the wife would come pick the dog up. The owner/handler would not have a clue as to the dogs abilities.
> 
> Nothing against wives but they weren't the one that was going to be working the dog.
> 
> ...


Exactly this. I train Pointing dogs mostly but the same experiences apply.

Oh, And being as I AM the wife, I feel I should comment on this. Much of the time the wife is actually the one dealing with the dog day to day, but not hunting the dog. Often the wife is the "competent one" that "gets it" when i explain what to do and why, but sadly she does not have the husband along so the information get lost in the translation.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

cowdoc87 said:


> It doesn't take an expert in dog body language to pick out the pros who's dogs aren't enjoying themselves. What constitutes abuse, what is provable, and how widespread it is are the tough ones to answer, much less what if anything should/could be done about it. For every "abusive" pro, there are probably ten that just aren't very good,but have a $75,000 rig full of client dogs running hunt tests every weekend. All things considered, a newbie owner who buys a "shock collar" to "train" his dog, having no idea what he's doing, is probably a much more common and sad problem, but that's another subject.


Don't forget the "website" those Always put some shine on the turds.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

chrokeva said:


> This has been a sad read.


Eva, the choices with retriever training are a little different - and more complicated - than with spaniels.

Fortunately, we can always turn to the *"whorey grail"* for advice.

MG


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

GunDawgSouth1 said:


> Go to a trial or hunt test and watch your trainers dogs...Keep a close eye on the tail...Heavy handed trainers or heavy ecollar trainers are very obvious...Happy well-trained dogs remain happy and well trained, not hacked, robotic and out of gas! This is a good topic!


Yes do you your homework but don't always jump to conclusions to quick from watching a test. 

Example. A few years ago a buddy of mine that trains dogs, and who i train with weekly (back then several times a week) got a dog from a client. The dog had been with another pro for a year +. She was beat down. And looked like it. Anytime, you raised your voice. Moved the gun to fast, or put a collar on her, she'd pee herself and many times lay down. I helped him for a year with this dog a lot, just building up confidence, and him teaching her how to do the right thing. It took a long time to get where we could load and shoot a gun close to this dog.
Finally got her going good as far as doing finished level work was concerned but she was still very cautious and if you didn't know it, you'd think she was still being beat down badly. 
So we are at a finished test one weekend, and my friend is running this dog for his client. I am in the gallery along with his then girl friend. Another pro and an onlooker was watching as he and this dog walked to the line. You could tell she was very worried still and had that look of being abused. The other pro made a comment something like this, to the guy, "That dog's look at the line can tell you a lot about how he trains...." I set him straight pretty quick that it was a really tough rehab project and that maybe he should get all the facts before jumping to conclusions and judging a man's work. 
Anyway, the dog went on to get her title. 

Point is you can't ALWAYS just go watch a test.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

A keen observation that my dad, who has no dog background, was go with the trainer to walk around the facility. Don't let the trainer have anything in their hands and watch the body language of the dogs as you walk the facility/kennel. The first trainer I took my dog to did this with me and nearly every dog immediately met him at the gate and was licking, rubbing his hand if he offered it and was essentially scratching at the kennel to get out and go "work". The one that didn't was visibly ill and recovering.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

My dear friend George Bragaw was looking for a dog that his friend could take hunting. He and she had a pretty respectable competition and her Rhodesian Ridgebacks weren't contributing. When the last died of old age, she wanted a retriever. He asked if I knew of something for her. I had just heard about a Tamarack dog (Golden) that had a strange behavior pattern. He'd turn aggressive towards any male standing at his side holding a collar transmitter. He'd work for a male without a transmitter and he'd work for a female with a transmitter. We never found out all the details but the dog passed JR, SR, and Master as well as NAHRA Started, Intermediate, and Senior with an amateur handler. Of course the dog had Open points but when he figured out how things works, he never won another point. As others have said, you can't always tell just by the dog's demeanor or behavior.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

I don't know how people can send their dog to a trainer. I'm not judging or anything, just saying I don't know how they can trust a stranger like that, especially one that is under so much pressure to get a dog to perform to a certain standard by a certain time. I don't think everyone can handle the pressure. 

Personally, I'd rather train my dog myself. I enjoy it. The frustrating times are a learning experience and when your dog gets something, you feel a real sense of accomplishment. 

I've seen some ugly things at picnic trials and hunt tests, by respected pros and amateurs alike. One guy at my last test actually bragged about being fined by the AKC for punching his dog in the face at a test for being vocal on the line (he waited until he was back to his car to punch the dog). He said that he framed the cancelled check. To be fair, I've also seen some bad stuff in obedience, too.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Labradorks said:


> I don't know how people can send their dog to a trainer. I'm not judging or anything, just saying I don't know how they can trust a stranger like that, especially one that is under so much pressure to get a dog to perform to a certain standard by a certain time. I don't think everyone can handle the pressure.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather train my dog myself. I enjoy it. The frustrating times are a learning experience and when your dog gets something, you feel a real sense of accomplishment.
> 
> I've seen some ugly things at picnic trials and hunt tests, by respected pros and amateurs alike. One guy at my last test actually bragged about being fined by the AKC for punching his dog in the face at a test for being vocal on the line (he waited until he was back to his car to punch the dog). He said that he framed the cancelled check. To be fair, I've also seen some bad stuff in obedience, too.


I would say, based upon a sampling of your recent posts, that you have reached that you reach conclusions with insufficient information. 

Specifically 

- Condemning force and 
- The use of professionals

It has been my experience on this forum that when someone says "I'm not judging or anything ...." that that is exactly what they are doing


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I think you have to be careful judging a trainer solely on the demeanor of one dog. I haven't been around this long and have seen dogs trained by the same pro have a wide range personalities. I've seen some dogs who at the kennel may seem happy and ready to work but are timid out in front of a crowd. Also, who knows what experiences the dog had before ever going to the trainer. 

I just have an issue coming to the conclusion that a trainer is unethical or abusive solely on the demeanor of one dog. If every dog they handle seems to cower in fear of their every move then yeah I think you could probably come to the conclusion that they are heavy handed.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Labradorks said:


> I don't know how people can send their dog to a trainer. I'm not judging or anything, just saying I don't know how they can trust a stranger like that, especially one that is under so much pressure to get a dog to perform to a certain standard by a certain time. I don't think everyone can handle the pressure. *That's where your own misinformation and obvious prejudice about "traditional" field training makes itself apparent. Good trainers and good owners train the dog as an individual, not a cookie cutter program. They use everything, and will try anything, that works with that dog, they don't limit themselves to one "quadrant" such as positive only or correction only, etc. They don't have to have anything done by a set time, they work on the dog's schedule, not some predetermined timeline. Good trainers know how to read a dog and they know how to use pressure. That is the singularly most misunderstood concept by many. Pressure. Positive people especially seem to think it is bad or that their dogs are too soft or sensitive to accept pressure. What they just do not get is that a good trainer knows how to work with sensitive dogs and teach them about pressure, and a stable response. Good trainers will tell owner if it becomes apparent that the dog is one they cannot train, after a reasonable time, that does not have the talent or desire to work in the particular venue or is just not the type of dog they like to train. Good owners accept that and find a more appropriate home or trainer for the dog, if they don't have resources or desire to keep the dog themselves. Sounds harsh maybe, but for some, the goal is a real AA competitor or MN or Grand, etc, and if the dog is not a good fit for that, it is far more fair to the dog to go where it will live happier, hunting, family companion, etc. Good owners and trainers don't try to make dogs into what they are not suited to be. The problem is not the training methods, it is finding the good owners and trainers.
> 
> Many pros and clients enjoy a very good relationship, become friends. Of course it is scary to send your dog to someone you don't know. Many have very valid reasons for doing so however and they need to do their research. There are bad trainers, bad owners, bad clients, bad breeders. Everyone needs to get references and go see for themselves if they can. Word of mouth, networking, references, education, are good ways to try to get rid of the bad seeds. A good trainer that you mesh with, that shows you how to work with your dog, teaches you as well, is worth their weight in gold. *
> 
> ...


 *I've seen all positive, no force, no ecollar blah blah blah trainers in action in the field. It is so unfair to the dog, if you understand dogs and training. It doesn't appear terribly progressive to me. Especially those that don't really get field, don't really enjoy field, they have their preconceived ideas and they are really about showing how THEY can train a dog for field using none of those nasty abusive force methods. See how narrow minded that sounds? That's what the majority of "positive" trainers sound like to us, at least, the ones coming on here pontificating. We really don't care if anyone trains with purple jelly beans or poptarts. Just quit making it sound like "traditional" = abusive, and thinking ecollars should be outlawed, because that's what this is all feeding into, bottom line. Just like the AR crowd want breeders gone, the all positive (I refuse to call them progressive) want ecollars banned along with as much of any kind of "force" training as they can possibly manage. They wuv their doggies and we don't. We just use and abuse them. That's what you sound like, whether you intend it or not. We can't discipline our kids and soon our dogs, with anything but cookie rewards, because it doesn't fit with the currently prevailing PC policies of an unreasonable, no common sense group and look at the mess we have now. I love cookies, but they aren't the answer to everything. *


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

Unfortunately, some trainers were successful with their first dog that required more stern corrections than most other dogs. They then come up with the misconception that all other dogs they train must be dealt with in the same manner. I know some trainers that their dogs look happy and they perform well even at the national events, but you don't see the dogs they culled or ruined by not adapting to the dogs needs. I have always said that a trainer that can't train dogs that range from a very sensitive nature to dogs that are ramrods is not a trainer in my book. It's easy and fun to get the highly talented dogs that grasps things quickly out of the dog truck to train. But after they are trained and you have to get the dogs out that learning is harder for them it isn't as easy or fun and you could have trained 2 or 3 other dogs in the same time. The good thing about training the slow and difficult dogs is the sense of accomplishment you feel in doing so. I have taken on dogs that were trained by other trainers and they were basket cases and turned them around and they turned out really well. I straighten out a couple of dogs from one trainer that was trying to train too many dogs. I think he had the misconception that he could apply lots of force to the dogs to teach them quicker and to get through them everyday. That just doesn't work. Dogs learn quicker when they are having fun and the pressure is off. In an interviw years ago Gun Dog Magazine interviewed a nationally knowned trainer, Phil Berger. Phil told the interviewer that he didn't have any trouble training the really good dogs or the really bad dogs but it was the dogs in between that gave him grey hairs as you don't know whether they are going to make it or not.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Labradorks said:


> I don't know how people can send their dog to a trainer. I'm not judging or anything, just saying I don't know how they can trust a stranger like that, especially one that is under so much pressure to get a dog to perform to a certain standard by a certain time. I don't think everyone can handle the pressure.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather train my dog myself. I enjoy it. The frustrating times are a learning experience and when your dog gets something, you feel a real sense of accomplishment.
> 
> I've seen some ugly things at picnic trials and hunt tests, by respected pros and amateurs alike. One guy at my last test actually bragged about being fined by the AKC for punching his dog in the face at a test for being vocal on the line (he waited until he was back to his car to punch the dog). He said that he framed the cancelled check. To be fair, I've also seen some bad stuff in obedience, too.


So now we get down to what your real agenda is for frequenting this forum Ms progressive I took 2 years to get a JH with perfect scores and love it because I did it the right way and Ms I've never had any problems with biting etc. Now trainers are abusive. You have the right to your opinion, train however you want, and choose dogs to train that feel pressure when you bend over to take the bird, but to arrogantly bash trainers based on on an event you didn't even witness, except for bragging, is not only narrow minded but ignorant. While I suppose there could be a "respected pro" at a picnic trial or Junior, that is not the place they frequent unless they are hurting for clients and they certainly wouldn't be bragging about abusing a dog and fined by AKC. You are not the first to come on here pontificating your training methods nor will you be the last, but you are the first to take 2 years to get a Junior on your dog and be arrogant about it. Move onto a forum with people that you can reform, because it won't be this one where there are still successful players at the highest level lurking.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Cooper said:


> Unfortunately, some trainers were successful with their first dog that required more stern corrections than most other dogs. They then come up with the misconception that all other dogs they train must be dealt with in the same manner. I know some trainers that their dogs look happy and they perform well even at the national events, but you don't see the dogs they culled or ruined by not adapting to the dogs needs. I have always said that a trainer that can't train dogs that range from a very sensitive nature to dogs that are ramrods is not a trainer in my book. It's easy and fun to get the highly talented dogs that grasps things quickly out of the dog truck to train. But after they are trained and you have to get the dogs out that learning is harder for them it isn't as easy or fun and you could have trained 2 or 3 other dogs in the same time. The good thing about training the slow and difficult dogs is the sense of accomplishment you feel in doing so. I have taken on dogs that were trained by other trainers and they were basket cases and turned them around and they turned out really well. I straighten out a couple of dogs from one trainer that was trying to train too many dogs. I think he had the misconception that he could apply lots of force to the dogs to teach them quicker and to get through them everyday. That just doesn't work. Dogs learn quicker when they are having fun and the pressure is off. In an interviw years ago Gun Dog Magazine interviewed a nationally knowned trainer, Phil Berger. Phil told the interviewer that he didn't have any trouble training the really good dogs or the really bad dogs but it was the dogs in between that gave him grey hairs as you don't know whether they are going to make it or not.[/QUOTE
> 
> Well put.One could argue with public vs.private school teachers also. PM sent. Jim


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

ErinsEdge #106 X 2 !!!


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

It's both sad and comical when ignorance and arrogance come from the same source


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## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

Labradorks, i am very familiar with the pro's and hunt tests in your area. i have marshaled at many of them. Please PM me the name of the pro you are referencing. I am also an amateur who is training their own dog. The only time i have seen a pro at a picnic test, is when the club they are affiliated with is putting on the test. I have trained next to pro's at Sauvie Island, Zellners, and St. Louis Ponds. I have talked dog training in the gallery with pro's from the southern oregon border, to seattle, to northeastern washington. I have yet in my 4 short years in this game, every heard a pro brag about, or reference any type of abuse towards a dog.

As an ongoing student of the hunt test game, i am always happy to hear any suggestions, ideas, theories on dog training that will make me a better trainer and help me help my dog be successful, including positive behavior training. What the postive/progressive training folks dont seem to grasp, is that this type of training was never intended for advanced dog work. charles Berry, one of the gurus of this type of training clearly states that it was intended for close work, obedience type work only. He goes on to explain how, and why clicker, positive training will not work on advanced field work, whether it is flushing, pointing retrieving, or setting work. If you plan on comanding your dog, to handle to a blind, when their natural instinct is to return to the old fall, You better have something stronger than a "Please", or simply asking to dog to obey. The science of a dogs prey drive and natural instincts will over ride a "Please" everytime.

A Well known couple recently gave a seminar on postive gun dog training in portland. Being interested, i called them and asked them what titles they had put on dogs. They couldnt name one title other than obed, agility, rally etc. there is the success, right there. 

I have trained next to positive training folks, and like was mentioned previously, 3 years to get a started/junior title, is not success in my eyes. I have watched a trainer take their dog back out to the intersection of a T 50 times in 2 days, when the dog refused to take an over, it knows. 50 corrections, could have been 1 correction with the appropriate, well timed stimulation. I am not sold on Positive training based on the results i have seen by many dogs, of different breeds so far. 

Finally, like you, i am an amateur, who isnt comfortable taking their dog to a pro, i wanted to train her myself, first dog, but that does not mean, i havent learned very valuable tips and techniques from varios pro's as we progress towards our master title. You are painting a horrible picture for confirmation labs, by your inexperienced, naive posts. i too run a confirmation lab who got her jh at 1, sh at 22 months, and we have 1 pass on masters at 4, primarily because i was waylayed by illness, and inexperience. My dog is better at this than i am, thankfully. You are painting a picture of confirmation labs, being stupid, slow, and barely trainable, by your naivete, and arrogant jh posts. Please stop and become a student of various training methods, and enjoy the success that you are denying yourself and your dog, because YOU Lack confidence!

I hope to see you at a test next year


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

"It's what you learn after you know it all that really counts!"
Earl Weaver


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

You should see the excitement my dog (and probably all dogs on this forum) show when I grab the collar to go train. He knows we are about to have some fun whether it be training, hunting, a basic walk...whatever! He is pumped! 

The collar is not the problem, your perception of the collar and how it is used is the problem.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> *I've seen all positive, no force, no ecollar blah blah blah trainers in action in the field. It is so unfair to the dog, if you understand dogs and training. It doesn't appear terribly progressive to me. Especially those that don't really get field, don't really enjoy field, they have their preconceived ideas and they are really about showing how THEY can train a dog for field using none of those nasty abusive force methods. See how narrow minded that sounds? That's what the majority of "positive" trainers sound like to us, at least, the ones coming on here pontificating. We really don't care if anyone trains with purple jelly beans or poptarts. Just quit making it sound like "traditional" = abusive, and thinking ecollars should be outlawed, because that's what this is all feeding into, bottom line. Just like the AR crowd want breeders gone, the all positive (I refuse to call them progressive) want ecollars banned along with as much of any kind of "force" training as they can possibly manage. They wuv their doggies and we don't. We just use and abuse them. That's what you sound like, whether you intend it or not. We can't discipline our kids and soon our dogs, with anything but cookie rewards, because it doesn't fit with the currently prevailing PC policies of an unreasonable, no common sense group and look at the mess we have now. I love cookies, but they aren't the answer to everything. *


Anytime anyone trains their dog in any style, wither R+ or traditional, and does it incorrectly, it is unfair to the dog. But, again, R+ is not all about cookies and if you think it is about cookies or being PC, you've never seen it done correctly. On the surface, e-collars and FF seems wrong and cruel just like on the surface, R+ seems like, well, stupid and cookies. So, let's not make assumptions about what we don't know or paint methods and techniques with a broad brush. While it's true that clueless people can try to pick up R+ and do it poorly, it's also true that FF and e-collars can be dangerous in the wrong hands. We could apply this to everything in life. 

I either didn't explain right or you didn't read right. Pressure on the trainer, not the dog. Plus, you are reading too far into my posts. Because I train a certain way, doesn't mean I condemn everyone else. If that is the way you feel, I'm sorry, but it's not personal. There might come a day when I decide to get a dog that doesn't respond well to my style of training and perhaps traditional training methods will be the best route? I'm not opposed to that, but I probably would not purposefully get a dog that would require force. Never say never, but as of right now, this is where I stand. For my particular dog right now, what I am doing is working for us and I am learning a lot. I am not being unfair to my dog. He gets it. I am fortunate in that I have a ton of support from the right people. I'm not doing this via YouTube, videos, books or PetCo. 

I personally wouldn't drop my dog off with any type of trainer. Not even if he or she trained exclusively with unicorn farts. I had a hard enough time finding a dog-sitter for my vacation and stressed about it for nearly two years. 

I train with plenty of traditional trainers and my field trainer is traditional. If I thought they were abusive or didn't love their dogs or whatever, I wouldn't spend my free time with them nor would I spend my money on them. However, respect goes both ways and I do not train with people who condemn my style of training, either. So, again, you are putting words in my mouth and reading too far into my posts.

As far as taking two years to put a JH on my dog, frankly, I don't think what I did was that awful considering the facts (that everyone has conveniently has forgotten). And you wonder why new people don't come to this sport? Ha!


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Labradorks said:


> Anytime anyone trains their dog in any style, wither R+ or traditional, and does it incorrectly, it is unfair to the dog. But, again, R+ is not all about cookies and if you think it is about cookies or being PC, you've never seen it done correctly. On the surface, e-collars and FF seems wrong and cruel just like on the surface, R+ seems like, well, stupid and cookies. So, let's not make assumptions about what we don't know or paint methods and techniques with a broad brush. While it's true that clueless people can try to pick up R+ and do it poorly, it's also true that FF and e-collars can be dangerous in the wrong hands. We could apply this to everything in life.
> 
> I either didn't explain right or you didn't read right. Pressure on the trainer, not the dog. Plus, you are reading too far into my posts. Because I train a certain way, doesn't mean I condemn everyone else. If that is the way you feel, I'm sorry, but it's not personal. There might come a day when I decide to get a dog that doesn't respond well to my style of training and perhaps traditional training methods will be the best route? I'm not opposed to that, but I probably would not purposefully get a dog that would require force. Never say never, but as of right now, this is where I stand. For my particular dog right now, what I am doing is working for us and I am learning a lot. I am not being unfair to my dog. He gets it. I am fortunate in that I have a ton of support from the right people. I'm not doing this via YouTube, videos, books or PetCo.
> 
> ...


"a dog that would require force", that is funny and telling. Most on this board have dogs that would far exceed a JH without force, but utilize it as the best tool for maximizing potential. Every post gets deeper. 

Putting on my muck boots regards,


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

You need waders on this one. Not only do most field dogs not require force for JH, because they have innate drive and desire, it may come as a revelation that most don't require much force at all once they understand to go, stop, come and get in the water. We are all for "good" dogs because they are fun and easy to train. No one wants to train a butt head that takes 2 years to do singles and whatever correctly is in a junior.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

As far as taking two years to put a JH on my dog, frankly, I don't think what I did was that awful considering the facts (that everyone has conveniently has forgotten). And you wonder why new people don't come to this sport? Ha![/QUOTE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS What difference if it takes two years or 10 years. She is happy with her dogs performance. She is the only one who matters as far as goals for her and her dog. Do all of the distractors on this thread have AFC in front of their dogs name? Was it on there in 2 years? I have not seen where she said her way was best, fastest, or any other claims. Just that it worked for her and her dog. I use Carr based methods and I am happy with them for me and mine. Are there people who you won't train with because they are too harsh on their dogs? I have people I won't train with because they are too harsh and too soft. I find a group of like minded individuals and we train together. Are all of our dogs advancing at the same pace? No. Why? This thread was started over what is a bad trainer. I feel it can be too harsh too soft, no results. etc Vic


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

You are all full of $hit. All of our dogs required force to get to a JH. Or are you not FF CCing your dogs at a young age? Before much field work? There is a difference between a JR and a JR one that is calmly heeling to the line, delivering to hand, nailing the marks. Or one that is dragging handler to line, hunting hells half acre, handler diving for bird. I think I know which one I want to see as a judge. One has been trained, by whatever method. Vic


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> You need waders on this one. Not only do most field dogs not require force for JH, because they have innate drive and desire, it may come as a revelation that most don't require much force at all once they understand to go, stop, come and get in the water. We are all for "good" dogs because they are fun and easy to train. No one wants to train a butt head that takes 2 years to do singles and whatever correctly is in a junior.


I'm sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. Why not ask me why I took two years to run him in the JH instead of putting your own personal spin on it to make it sound like we failed?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Why not ask me why I took two years to run him in the JH instead of putting your own personal spin on it to make it sound like we failed?


You already told us. Review your posts, and you are the only one mentioning failures


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

ZEKESMAN said:


> You are all full of $hit. All of our dogs required force to get to a JH. Or are you not FF CCing your dogs at a young age? Before much field work? There is a difference between a JR and a JR one that is calmly heeling to the line, delivering to hand, nailing the marks. Or one that is dragging handler to line, hunting hells half acre, handler diving for bird. I think I know which one I want to see as a judge. One has been trained, by whatever method. Vic


Calm down there, hero. Of course our dogs were FF'd at a young age (cause it is the best method). What was stated and is true, is that they wouldn't require it for a JH. They have enough innate drive, desire, and biddability to easily accomplish a JH without FF. 

My dog never ran JH, just derbies, MH, Quals, and Am, but he damn sure could have smacked a JH as a puppy without FF. I would think you would understand FF and its value better than Labradorks, but apparently not. She hopes she never has a dog that "requires" it. That is preposterous, but go ahead and defend it.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

No hero here. Just think that this is a forum for retriever training. We should look at all avenues. Right? If we only interact with people who have the same ideas, beliefs that we do, we will never learn anything new. What a self absorbed pat our self on the back world that would be. And I do understand the importance of FF and how it is the foundation of all we do with our dogs. Just think maybe we can have a civil discussion with differing points of view. Also it seems this post is getting tied up with the other post on new blood in the sport. Just offering my thoughts. I will continue to train my dogs with Carr based methods as I think these are the best. You can not argue with success right? But you can talk about it without beating up on the newbies  And I plan on buying all the fast, driven, wild child pups that I can. You can teach whoa, but not go. Hopefully they will all "require force". But who knows Vic


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

She is no newbie. She has it figured and knows better than us. 

Ironically her dog is likely the one that "requires" FF more so than ours.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

What new ideas? I haven't seen any.
Just the statement that we don't understand progressive methods.
So....have at it, post it up, those new methods.

Tell us all how to get a dog under the arc of a poison bird flyer at 300 yards. 
Or off a point, into the wind and big water.
I for one, would like to know.


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## Garduck (Feb 1, 2013)

Going to throw a wrench into this one when it comes to word of mouth. I think the best option if possible is to really spend time with a trainer in the beginning and get to know them. Throwing birds is an excellent way to make yourself useful! 

The reason I distrust word of mouth in the trial and hunt test game is that it's a competitive business. I've worked as a trainer and been a client with several trainers. I was at a trial talking with a trainer who didn't know of my relationship with an out of state trainer. He pulled a dog out and said such and such really messed this dog up in front of all his present clients. He continues bad mouthing the other trainer and suggesting abuse. Oddly the trainer being accused was the most caring resourceful and capable of training the most sensitive dogs imaginable that I've ever witnessed. 

In fact I knew the dog and his issues which were all issues ingrained before the accused trainer got him. Upshot make your own opinion you never know a dog or clients past history leave the judgement at the door.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Calm down people. How did this become a positive only vs. harsh correction thread? The root this trouble is extremism and closed minds. On both sides. You know the cartoon where 2 people are looking at a number from different sides and one says it's a 6 and the other says it's a 9. 
Don't rule out or condemn what you don't do and such, and don't assume. You might one day see me screaming at my dog in a fit and smacking him. It would be a bad day. I would regret it. But it could happen under the right circumstances and you would think I was a hot headed harsh trainer. Or you might see me clicker training a young dog with treats or running my (HR titled and training for Finished, then back around for AKC) lab with no e-collar. He works pretty well for me that way and I train him mostly without. You would think I was "one of those positive trainers" and you would be kind of right. I lean towards less correction when possible. Except I do use e-collars sometimes. I do correct my dogs sometimes. So if you judged me on that one sight, from either experience, you would judge me incorrectly. 
I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but I have a dog because I ENJOY working with my dog. And to that end I use the methods that I ENJOY. The methods YOU enjoy, may be different. And that's cool. I enjoy watching your awesome dogs run their crazy long and complicated retrieves. I open my mind and see a great dog. And I don't mind that you trained differently than I did. I kind of expect it. Because you are different and you have a different dog. 
cheers to y'all, drink more wine, and Lord don't bring up Politics


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Migillicutty said:


> Calm down there, hero. Of course our dogs were FF'd at a young age (cause it is the best method). What was stated and is true, is that they wouldn't require it for a JH. They have enough innate drive, desire, and biddability to easily accomplish a JH without FF.
> 
> My dog never ran JH, just derbies, MH, Quals, and Am, but he damn sure could have smacked a JH as a puppy without FF. I would think you would understand FF and its value better than Labradorks, but apparently not. She hopes she never has a dog that "requires" it. That is preposterous, but go ahead and defend it.


If a JH is so easy, why do dogs fail? Even those trained and run by pros? Even those with a FF?


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Because dogs are still dogs. However, they shouldn't fail very often. If a pro doesn't pass a vast majority of the time running JH they shouldn't call themselves a pro. It's a very basic entry level test. I'm glad it is available for new folks and as a place to play for folks who can't achieve higher levels. It's a great intro to the sport without much pressure, I mean you can hang on to the dog after all, and don't have to handle. Most pros that even run it, run it for the sake of the clients not the dogs. I don't really know any Ams that run it except those with their first competive dog, or those that just want to give a little line time to very young dogs in that environment, with the ability to make sure they don't break. It's just a training tool and they don't pursue a title. I watch the JH and a lot of times the dogs that are running shouldn't be. It's just a lack of knowledge on the part of the handlers but they want to compete so more power to them. I think that is where you see the most failures. 

Ive also personally watched a 6 yr old boy run it with a 15 month old dog, and he did it without a collar. They smashed the test both days.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

Um, lotta folks fail Novice obedience, even Rally Novice.  You have to work to fail Rally. Why do dogs fail obedience competitions, even those trained with treats? Doesn't make the training methods wrong.

I've got a really talented hellion the pro can and has run in derbies (likely because the pup is convinced the pro doesn't care if she lives or dies), but I'm not certain *I* can handle her to a JH right now. Doesn't make the training methods wrong.

That said, there are pros and there are pros. Anyone can take money for dog training, but if the pro can't get results (aka, pass Jrs with a reasonable amount of training) with his/her dogs they aren't a pro in my book.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Migillicutty said:


> Because dogs are still dogs. However, they shouldn't fail very often. If a pro doesn't pass a vast majority of the time running JH they shouldn't call themselves a pro. It's a very basic entry level test. I'm glad it is available for new folks and as a place to play for folks who can't achieve higher levels. It's a great intro to the sport without much pressure, I mean you can hang on to the dog after all, and don't have to handle. Most pros that even run it, run it for the sake of the clients not the dogs. I don't really know any Ams that run it except those with their first competive dog, or those that just want to give a little line time to very young dogs in that environment, with the ability to make sure they don't break. It's just a training tool and they don't pursue a title. I watch the JH and a lot of times the dogs that are running shouldn't be. It's just a lack of knowledge on the part of the handlers but they want to compete so more power to them. I think that is where you see the most failures.
> 
> Ive also personally watched a 6 yr old boy run it with a 15 month old dog, and he did it without a collar. They smashed the test both days.


That boy was 5 yrs old.
And as we all saw he put a couple of "PROS" to shame with his handling abilities, courtesy and professionalism


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

I thought he was 5, but then couldn't remember for sure, and didn't want to be accused of exaggerating. He did put some "pros" to shame. My favorite part was his wherewithal to shake the judges hands as he left the line.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Rainmaker posted


> *THEY can train a dog for field using none of those nasty abusive force methods. See how narrow minded that sounds? That's what the majority of "positive" trainers sound like to us, at least, the ones coming on here pontificating.*


That will be me. And not only me, but thousands of others. I don't like abusive methods, no one does, but to claim that no retriever (or any other hunting dog) can be trained to high standards in the field without using an e-collar, force fetch, heeling stick, and prong collar is frankly, not merely dumb, but plain wrong. 

I've seen movies of collar trained dogs doing great work, and the more enlightened contributors in RTF, collar trainers themselves, have seen stuff I've posted showing the other side of the coin and noted the excellent performances. 

Too many from the Carr camp come over all defensive and aggressive when alternative methods are advanced because they believe themselves under attack; I think Rainmaker typifies this attitude. Most of the time they aren't. By a similar token the "as positive as can managed" types (like me) are disparaged as incompetent underachievers even when they clearly aren't.

Below, a brief video of a nice retrieve showing some fine handling by a non collar, non FF dog.






Some folks need a big dose of growing up medicine.

Eug


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Rainmaker said:


> *. We really don't care if anyone trains with purple jelly beans or poptarts.. *


 Seems some of what she wrote was either ignored or missed.
I will refrain from comments on that video. Would be accused of being " defensive and aggressive."


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Rainmaker postedThat will be me. And not only me, but thousands of others. I don't like abusive methods, no one does, but to claim that no retriever (or any other hunting dog) can be trained to high standards in the field without using an e-collar, force fetch, heeling stick, and prong collar is frankly, not merely dumb, but plain wrong.
> 
> I've seen movies of collar trained dogs doing great work, and the more enlightened contributors in RTF, collar trainers themselves, have seen stuff I've posted showing the other side of the coin and noted the excellent performances.
> 
> ...


I DID NOT say they cannot be trained using all positive, I was posting in sarcasm in part to show just how narrow minded Labradorks sounded with HER statements about FF, etc. Apparently that intent was lost or misunderstood. It is very much the norm for the all positive trainer types who come on here to disparage FF, make us sound like brutes who don't love our dogs, not just Labradorks, but in general. Yes, I get defensive because of what they say, and maybe they aren't intending it, but the innuendo is certainly there if nothing else. For pete's sake, she called it "progressive" training. So no, I have no issue with anyone wanting to train all positive, I don't care if they take 2 years or 10 to finish a JH if that's what gives them pleasure. It isn't my thing, but so what, no skin off my nose what they do, and some are probably good at it. I object to the usually mistaken assumptions about "traditional" field training, that was the gist. Don't disparage mine and I won't yours. That's all.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Some folks need a big dose of growing up medicine.
> 
> Eug


Seems some folks might need a louder whistle.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I let it be until post #101, the "I'm not judging but" post which was analyzed by Ted in post #102 very nicely. When noobs start making incorrect assumptions and posting them, I think they need to be told.

I give my puppy buyers a list of pros I know and may have also used. I urge them to call me and ask me questions about other pros. I have hooked a puppy buyer from another breeder bred from my stud up with my pro when he was told his dog was washed by the first pro. Not only was the dog not washed, but the dog was a candidate for possible derby, but the young man just wanted a good hunting dog. Don't just talk to the pro, but to their assistants who may do their own thing. Go watch several training sessions. There are bad pros, but there are certainly very good ones who also teach you how to handle. I'm glad mine is a good one.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Rainmaker postedThat will be me. And not only me, but thousands of others. I don't like abusive methods, no one does, but to claim that no retriever (or any other hunting dog) can be trained to high standards in the field without using an e-collar, force fetch, heeling stick, and prong collar is frankly, not merely dumb, but plain wrong.
> 
> I've seen movies of collar trained dogs doing great work, and the more enlightened contributors in RTF, collar trainers themselves, have seen stuff I've posted showing the other side of the coin and noted the excellent performances.
> 
> ...







Eug I don't think Rainmaker meant the comments as you took it as per her last post.
I must comment on your video before I answer the original post. That is a very impressive performance and totally agree that a dog can be trained to a high level without the ecollar or FF and you are to be commended for the work you do, BUT..... With all due respect, and I seriously mean that, in our field trials that dog would not have been carried to the next series. I have a 14 month old that could do that blind. Not well enough to get carried to the next series but we could do it.
Now on to the original question. I think it's up to the owner of the dog to do his homework when choosing a trainer. They should visit the kennel and spend a day with the trainer and watch his dogs work and don't be afraid to ask for references. Also once they leave their dog they should spend as much time there as possible to learn them selves. When I get a new dog in it's ok thanks see ya in 3 months. I have had clients that live 15 miles from me that come see their dogs maybe twice for 20 minutes or so in 3 months. Drives me crazy! I try hard to get clients involved with their dogs but I am never successful at it. I used to treat every dog like a field champion but not anymore. I would be wasting my time. I do my best to give a client their monies worth with what I've got to work with but I no longer take the time to teach the detailed precision it takes to be a competitor because it would be wasted. I think the bad trainers should be outed in one way or another. Karma usually comes around but sometimes it takes too long


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Thanks, Steve, I truly don't want to discourage anyone who is working with their dog in any way (other than actual abuse) or mock even a JH title, I was trying to show how uneducated and arrogant Labradorks sounded with her posts by bouncing it back with my own overly broad generalizations/simplifications about a training method I don't have that much familiarity with, hence why I put "sounds narrow minded, doesn't it" in there. I didn't make it clear enough and I apologize to the "positive" trainers, not intentionally mocking the training itself.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Steve - are you aware that the handler does not know the exact location of that blind? 

I think if the folks across the pond wanted to teach their dogs to take 'tighter' lines - or stay in a corridor - they could. Thing is, sometimes they send their dog on a blind where they CAN'T see the dog for quite some time... So the dogs learn to go in a 'generally' straight direction. There was a time or two on this blind when the dog bumped into some bird scent as well... which is why it started hunting. (Appeared to me, at least)

Talking to the dog with the whistle - stop whistle, hunt whistle...

Eug or Rob't will correct me if I am mistaken, I am sure. 

Oh and Steve - would your 14 month old pup be able to do that blind without FF or FTP?


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> I DID NOT say they cannot be trained using all positive, I was posting in sarcasm in part to show just how narrow minded Labradorks sounded with HER statements about FF, etc. Apparently that intent was lost or misunderstood. It is very much the norm for the all positive trainer types who come on here to disparage FF, make us sound like brutes who don't love our dogs, not just Labradorks, but in general. Yes, I get defensive because of what they say, and maybe they aren't intending it, but the innuendo is certainly there if nothing else. For pete's sake, she called it "progressive" training. So no, I have no issue with anyone wanting to train all positive, I don't care if they take 2 years or 10 to finish a JH if that's what gives them pleasure. It isn't my thing, but so what, no skin off my nose what they do, and some are probably good at it. I object to the usually mistaken assumptions about "traditional" field training, that was the gist. Don't disparage mine and I won't yours. That's all.


Where did I say anything in this post about FF people being abusive? Where did I call anyone a brute or comment on whether or not they love their dogs? I would love to see that because I certainly didn't write it! So, you jump on me because I don't train like you and you assume I don't train like you because I think it's abusive? So, if I don't do what you do I think what you are doing is bad? Just because someone makes a choice, one that fits them and their dog, doesn't mean that they think everything else is bad. If I buy car A I'm not disparaging cars B through Z. 

The "I'm not judging" was regarding sending a dog away to a trainer. If people feel comfortable doing it, fine, just not for me, regardless of training methods. Do you really think I'd be training with traditional trainers if I thought they were terrible human beings? Do you really think I would be paying for lessons with a traditional trainer if I thought he was abusive to his kennel full of dogs? 

If you want to take words out of context or become offended because I call a method one thing or the other, go for it, I guess, but don't put words in my mouth. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's merely a conversation.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Retriever trainers are a practical group. Produce the desired product with less effort and stress in a timely manner and the results will be noticed. Students will flock to the teacher. Until that time the status quo will not be changed.

IMHO if an owner is satisfied with the results of training and is enjoying the journey then that is success!

Now back to the original topic. We have outed many professional pot stirrers in this thread!!!!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Now back to the original topic. We have outed many professional pot stirrers in this thread!!!!


But, first...they don't have to use _*electric*_ pot stirrers in the UK to *make* their kettles whistle - or to call each other black for that matter!

MG


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> I let it be until post #101, the "I'm not judging but" post which was analyzed by Ted in post #102 very nicely. When noobs start making incorrect assumptions and posting them, I think they need to be told.


You do know that the "I'm not judging part" was about sending my dog away, right? And, again, I wouldn't send my dog away to ANY type of trainer, I don't care how well I know them. 

What assumptions did I make in this thread? I'd like to see them. Why do you assume that if I don't do what you do, I'm saying you are bad? Why can't someone train their dog and if it works, it works and why do you care so much about how I train my dog if it's working? If I came on this board complaining and asking for advice every other day because what I am doing isn't working, or if my methods created a monster, or if the methods I used ruined him for the sport, then bash away, but none of that happened. Not even close. I respect my dogs and will use the methods that work best for them. If it means a JH at 6 months or 6 years, I don't care. If you're going to take my methods as a personal insult, I guess that is your problem, not mine.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Labradorks said:


> You do know that the "I'm not judging part" was about sending my dog away, right? And, again, I wouldn't send my dog away to ANY type of trainer, I don't care how well I know them.
> 
> What assumptions did I make in this thread? I'd like to see them. Why do you assume that if I don't do what you do, I'm saying you are bad? Why can't someone train their dog and if it works, it works and why do you care so much about how I train my dog if it's working? If I came on this board complaining and asking for advice every other day because what I am doing isn't working, or if my methods created a monster, or if the methods I used ruined him for the sport, then bash away, but none of that happened. Not even close. *I respect my dogs and will use the methods that work best for them*. If it means a JH at 6 months or 6 years, I don't care. If you're going to take my methods as a personal insult, I guess that is your problem, not mine.


If you would quit using subtle little zingers like the bolded one above, which I personally think you are doing unintentionally, it would help your cause. Every trainer or dog owner (or pot stirrer) on this thread will read that you are implying or insinuating that we (the traditionalists) DON'T respect our dogs. And that could not be more wrong.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Labradorks said:


> You do know that the "I'm not judging part" was about sending my dog away, right? And, again, I wouldn't send my dog away to ANY type of trainer, I don't care how well I know them.
> 
> What assumptions did I make in this thread? I'd like to see them. Why do you assume that if I don't do what you do, I'm saying you are bad? Why can't someone train their dog and if it works, it works and why do you care so much about how I train my dog if it's working? If I came on this board complaining and asking for advice every other day because what I am doing isn't working, or if my methods created a monster, or if the methods I used ruined him for the sport, then bash away, but none of that happened. Not even close.* I respect my dogs and will use the methods that work best for them*. If it means a JH at 6 months or 6 years, I don't care. If you're going to take my methods as a personal insult, I guess that is your problem, not mine.


Are you insinuating others don't respect their dogs? If not it sure sounds like it, and you wonder why there is some rankle at your posts. 

BTW nothing you have stated or done show any proof that your methods work. They work for YOU and what YOU want, but it goes no further than that. No one is saying don't use what YOU want to use and what works for YOUR goals. Just don't tell us that those methods are applicable to what most here are trying to accomplish.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I don't know how people can send their dog to a trainer. _I'm not judging or anything, just saying I don't know how they can trust a stranger like that, *especially one that is under so much pressure to get a dog to perform to a certain standard by a certain time*._


This is just passive-aggressive pot stirring verbiage. I'm sure there are lowly pros needing clients that might be "under pressure" to have a dog perform, but I don't know any of those. A good pro will be honest and basically tell the client they are wasting their money. You have not answered any questions asked of you and call it whatever you want, but "Flamer" comes to mind, and there is no point in being sucked in further.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

birddogn_tc said:


> If you would quit using subtle little zingers like the bolded one above, which I personally think you are doing unintentionally, it would help your cause. Every trainer or dog owner (or pot stirrer) on this thread will read that you are implying or insinuating that we (the traditionalists) DON'T respect our dogs. And that could not be more wrong.


my thoughts exactly. sounds like 'I respect my dog, so I use methods that do not put negative pressure on my dog - therefore anyone that uses negative pressure on their dog must not respect their dog.'


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## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

The only positive reinforcement, pre-mack, or what ever the current name for this method of training is, in Labradorks area that i know of, i have had the "pleasure" of watching for the last 4 years. This group, headed by Dr. Feelgood, a pro, trains the dogs, and handlers, with 20' check cords still trailing after them after 4 years, and a small minority have gotten past juniors.

Now either Dr. Feelgood, knows a good thing when they see it, and is milking these "Clients" for all they are worth, or isnt capable of training past juniors. Either way, it is so very sad to see these handlers, who think dr. feelgood is the best thing since Sliced Bread,r with their "Thank you" rather than out, or drop, Dropping birds 1/2 way back from a retrieve, running around the field instead of hunting a mark, and coming to heel if the dog feels like it, screw up perfectly capable dogs, and abuse these trusting well intentioned handlers, to the point of frustration.

So labradorks, there is another type of Pro, that you may wish to malign along with the rest of the Pro's in the NW, that simply run dogs through their training according to a schedule,as you think is the current practice. Thanks so much for pointing out to the rest of the country and Canada, that here in the PNW, we dont have capable, caring, knowledgeable, ethical Pro- trainers.

Nice work. (and you wonder why people are offended by your "Generalized" comments? Really?)


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

I think everyone but Labradorks is aware of how she comes across. That's a sad situation, right there.

A discussion of training methods isn't what's sparked four pages of passionate posts - after all, we compare and contrast Lardy, Graham, Hillman and more on a regular basis. It's the repeated implications that if the dog has expectations placed on it, its owners are abusive, inhumane, don't care about their dogs, and want the tough hard headed beast who runs on a 7 its entire life. (We don't!) This is compounded by inflammatory statements such as,

I'm not judging or anything, just saying I don't know how they can trust a stranger like that, especially one that is under so much pressure to get a dog to perform to a certain standard by a certain time.
I respect my dogs and will use the methods that work best for them.
I probably would not purposefully get a dog that would require force.

....that show such a fundamental lack of education on the topic there's no good place to start. And reading between the lines, the rest of us see "I don't know how anyone could send their furkid away to someone who would hurt it, how do you look yourselves in the mirror each morning, I can't believe you deliberately buy dogs that would need those horrid training methods...." 

I learned so much from sending my pup to a FT pro this year. Maybe most of it was just learning that I didn't know what I didn't know, and now I've at least gotten to where I do know what I don't know. Some of it was what the average dog should be able to easily accomplish with a good trainer by X months of training. 5 months and I can run 200 yard cold blinds with my pup. I actually suggested on several occasions the pro take my pup slower, and he felt it would be the wrong thing _for my dog_. (And that knowledge is what made him worth every dollar I spent!) If a pro told me he could pass a JH in 5 months and no more than FF and CC, I'd be going somewhere else (or getting a different dog).

I had a dog with a JH at 3, through no fault of her own - I also don't brag about it. Frankly, it doesn't matter and _no one cares_. Why do you feel obligated to push your dog's accomplishments (or lack of) in our faces every few weeks? It's easy to see you're just dying to have someone ask what. the. facts. are. behind your "taking 2 years to get a JH." You've mentioned it almost every post. Um, really?

We're all taking the bait you keep (unintentionally, we hope) throwing out, because we're downright insulted by the implications you're making. You're still buried way down in not knowing what you don't know. Every. single. post.

You're welcome to train however you want. No one here cares whether you use treats or FF, clickers or an ecollar, or drag a 20' check cord for 4 years. Hopefully you, like every other dog-loving owner out there, will be successful with your dogs at whatever level you want to play at -- but I (and evidently most of the posters here!) strongly resent your training philosophy and the accompanying insults being crammed down our throats.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

IdahoLabs said:


> I think everyone but Labradorks is aware of how she comes across. That's a sad situation, right there.
> 
> A discussion of training methods isn't what's sparked four pages of passionate posts - after all, we compare and contrast Lardy, Graham, Hillman and more on a regular basis. It's the repeated implications that if the dog has expectations placed on it, its owners are abusive, inhumane, don't care about their dogs, and want the tough hard headed beast who runs on a 7 its entire life. (We don't!) This is compounded by inflammatory statements such as,
> 
> ...


Very well stated. Thank you Claire


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

ErinsEdge said:


> Very well stated. Thank you Claire


X2

need to add more characters for RTF to accept post regards


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Agree with Claire, Cutty, etc. Cutty your last remarks has me puzzled. "Need to add more characters for RTF to accept post regards" ??


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Tobias said:


> *Steve - are you aware that the handler does not know the exact location of that blind? *
> 
> I think if the folks across the pond wanted to teach their dogs to take 'tighter' lines - or stay in a corridor - they could. Thing is, sometimes they send their dog on a blind where they CAN'T see the dog for quite some time... So the dogs learn to go in a 'generally' straight direction. There was a time or two on this blind when the dog bumped into some bird scent as well... which is why it started hunting. (Appeared to me, at least)
> 
> ...






Well now I have to question that. It appears to me that there is a white stake at the end of the blind. How the [email protected]!! can you handle to a blind when you don't know where it is. I understand that possibly the handler only knows approx. where the blind is but in this video I believe the handler knew where that blind was. Didn't know there was a hunt whistle and can see the value in that but why blow a hunt whistle at 100 yards when you know the blind is approx. 300 yards. I also took into consideration that at times the handler could not see the dog but upon reviewing the video every time I thought the dog was maybe out of sight the dog was stoped handled and took a cast. If a dog that stops to hunt scent when running a blind it hasn't been taught much control. And yes my pup could do that without FF or FTP. I don't believe FF has much if anything to do with it and I don't do much FTP at if any all. You have no idea of how or when or if I use force. Only time I force a dog to a pile is if it doesn't go or is acting lazy. My dogs will get 3 or 4 nicks in route to the pile in their life.
I think your statements here are a bit ridiculous and have nothing to do with the original question but fall right in line with the mentality of if I disagree with something you believe in then you feel the need to tell me why I am wrong. I was agreeing with Eug that force and collar are not necessary to achieve a higher level of training and that this dog did a nice job. Guess I should have left out the insinuation that there were flaws so you wouldn't have to make excuses to defend your views.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

In the UK - the trials are very different. I think this was from the Irish Championship last year. The judges tell the handler 'about' where they figure the bird has landed. Not sure if the guns in the field relay this by radio or ??? At any rate - they definitely do not use blind poles or flagging to mark blinds. 

I'd love to hear a play by play explanation of the whistles by someone who knows. Perhaps Polmaise, Kennel Maiden, or Eug could tell us.

Not defending my or anyone elses views - I use collar and FF and FTP with my dogs. Maybe next one I won't - maybe I will... just clarifying for you what was happening in the video is not the same as what we do over here...apples and oranges in many ways. Well, maybe just different varieties of apples.  I don't know/haven't seen many dogs that could run that blind at 14 months without a major battle to get them past scent of live game which was likely present in this blind.... again, given dog's reaction when it reached a couple of locations along the 'line'.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Agree with Claire, Cutty, etc. Cutty your last remarks has me puzzled. "Need to add more characters for RTF to accept post regards" ??


posts have to have 10 characters... x2 is only two characters.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> In the UK - the trials are very different. I think this was from the Irish Championship last year. The judges tell the handler 'about' where they figure the bird has landed. Not sure if the guns in the field relay this by radio or ??? At any rate - they definitely do not use blind poles or flagging to mark blinds.
> 
> I'd love to hear a play by play explanation of the whistles by someone who knows. Perhaps Polmaise, Kennel Maiden, or Eug could tell us.
> 
> Not defending my or anyone elses views - I use collar and FF and FTP with my dogs. Maybe next one I won't - maybe I will... just clarifying for you what was happening in the video is not the same as what we do over here...apples and oranges in many ways. Well, maybe just different varieties of apples.  I don't know/haven't seen many dogs that could run that blind at 14 months without a major battle to get them past scent of live game which was likely present in this blind.... again, given dog's reaction when it reached a couple of locations along the 'line'.


Both Handler and dog has not 'marked' the bird . 
Probably helped with the only tree on a grouse moor with a tree as a marker to where the area of fall is , but hey ho'..what else do you have as a reference with this one . There is no white coats at the line or at the fall area, so it's all handling on a cold blind . and by the way , the game may have moved from where it fell . Yup 'Tobias' ,there is possible live game en-route' .!...Kinda difficult for the dog also to 'take a second' on the stop whistle and take direction from it's handler in a crowd of over 100 wearing the same or similar gear . 
Nice retrieve that no other can replicate (because that bird is picked) ..That is the one big difference to our Trials in comparison to our compatriots across the pond .


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

IdahoLabs;1526938 Anyone can take money for dog training said:


> Agree with this ^
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Training R+ in the North American environment for hunt tests and field trials as opposed to e-collar is like using a spoon to dig a ditch when you have a backhoe at your disposal. 
You can do it to some degree.....but why would you want to? The spoon approach is easier to understand because its obviously simplistic but isn't near as efficient and you won't get the results, the by-product of which is the spoon and the one wielding it are most certainly under more "pressure".
Lets hear whats fair and respectful now.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Every ones a dog trainer,,,,some are.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Agree with Claire, Cutty, etc. Cutty your last remarks has me puzzled. "Need to add more characters for RTF to accept post regards" ??


Tobias got it. If you try to post under 10 characters rtf won't let the post go through. So I was just adding characters in the form of a regards.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Just to return to the video I posted ..... 

The Trial was filmed on a partridge drive. The Guns and handlers were along the stream at the bottom of the gulley, looking for birds coming off the hill on the camera side, not the slope where the dog was sent. The bird was shot on the far end of the line of Guns, and flew on for what looks like about eighty yards, then fluttered down in the area of the white birch tree. It might have expired where it pitched or might have moved on, no one knows. Other birds would have been shot at much the same time, dropping wherever.

So the bird was shot by a Gun some 300 yards from the dog that we see working, whilst over the opposite slope. The wind was blowing away from the dog, and it would be highly likely that other game was moving in his path (shot and picked or un-shot) or had recently been there.

It's highly unlikely that either dog or handler marked it; the Judge would have taken advice from those who saw it pitch, and his instructions would be along the lines of "There's a bird, possibly wounded, near that birch tree two thirds up the back slope. Send your dog".

*Steve*; the idea isn't for the handler to train the dog to step on long, "known" blinds as in a US Trial, it's for the dog to show his game sense, nose, and biddability in retrieving the bird. So working as he was at distance, in thick cover, with a possible runner, downwind, I rate this as a very nice retrieve. 

Eug


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Just to return to the video I posted .....
> 
> The Trial was filmed on a partridge drive. The Guns and handlers were along the stream at the bottom of the gulley, looking for birds coming off the hill on the camera side, not the slope where the dog was sent. The bird was shot on the far end of the line of Guns, and flew on for what looks like about eighty yards, then fluttered down in the area of the white birch tree. It might have expired where it pitched or might have moved on, no one knows. Other birds would have been shot at much the same time, dropping wherever.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the description Eug, 
Indeed a *very* nice retrieve. I'd have bought the dog a burger on the way home.


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> As owner you are responsible for making sure such as you describe never happens. Step one is ask around for people with actual experience with a good trainer. Ask a lot of people, don't send you dog off to someone you don't know unless his or her reputation is impeccable. Then have lengthy conversations with the trainer, what is his training philosophy, does he adjust his program to fit the dog, what kind of facilities does he have. Go visit and watch him train dogs, ask for references. Then follow up with frequent phone conversations and visit your dog after a month or so. Most "well known" trainers are good because by being well known, people would know how they train and what kind of success they've had.
> 
> I can rattle ten trainer's names off the top of my head and though I haven't trained with but a few of them know a lot about their training expertise and can see just from watching them run their dogs how the dogs are treated, I would do my homework, but be very comfortable putting my dog with any of them.


As a newby, I spent a year waiting for my dog. During that year I went to 3 HRC events and joined two retriever training forums. I bought two very different training videos and watched them both more than once. I planned to train pup myself. I still think I did an excellent job on OB. Soon into fundamentals I felt I needed help. 

When I decided to hire a pro I asked the only two I knew and both were booked.

A couple of people on the forum stuck out as sensible and experienced so when I inquired about reputable trainers, and when I got multiple recommendations for trainer X, I felt really good. He is 7 hours away and quite expensive but... I want the best I can find.

After several calls I took pup to him. He had me fill out my expectations in a form he provided and show him what the dog already knew. I left the little guy with him. I couldn't travel there every weekend but I managed monthly visits.

Month 1. I get there and we are working on heel. Very little else.
Month 2. Still doing heel, and what he referred to as circle fetch (a term I still haven't heard since). Now I'm concerned that I'm not getting my money's worth, and also wondering, maybe I just don't know how the pro's do it.
Month 3. Looks exactly like month 2 so I asked. I was told that now pup is ready to begin the real meat of the training, and I would see a major difference when I return. And he has gained weight
Month 4. He has spent a month on a table teaching "hold". No doubt his hold was great but damn. Now the pup looks fat and desperately needs a bath.

Now the dog is almost 9 months old and can heel great and hold great nothing else is any better than when I brought him. I expressed my concern that we are not progressing, the dog is over weight and I fear he isn't getting exercise or training. 

Keep in mind the trainer bragged on how smart the dog was and how good he was going to be. He suggested that I take the dog home for a couple months and decide if I wanted to continue his training.

Here I am, years later and I still don't know what else I could have done.

As an owner you feel pretty stupid when you've been taken. 

I can name you 10 engineers that are top notch, because that's my field. I doubt Average Joe can name 5 dog trainers. That doesn't mean Joe won't make a fine owner for a hunting dog.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

seriously - results are on EE . . and multiple FB pages .. Looking for a FT trainer ? See who has handled to FC as a pro. look at the AM and cross reference to the open . You will see who is bringing home the blue . Same thing with Master . Look on EE for results . in front of your noses regards ....


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Easy to say by someone who has run trials, knows how to search/use EE. Newbies or those who have not run any tests/trials will not know about the resources that are out there unless someone shows them.

Meredith


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

I think it is hard at times even for people in the game. Had a Friend take a pup to a somewhat local trainer as he was going to be working out of state for 4 months. Pup was 6 months old good OB. When he got back went to pick up pup no FF no CC. He was wondering what was accomplished in 4 months. No complaints just fixed it himself. This trainer has multiple MH's and a very good pass rate on EE so. . . . . Expensive boarding regards Vic


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

mwk56 said:


> Easy to say by someone who has run trials, knows how to search/use EE. Newbies or those who have not run any tests/trials will not know about the resources that are out there unless someone shows them.
> 
> Meredith


I googled "how to enter a retriever field trial" lots of results regards....

​Avast Yahoo Web Search YahooSearch query







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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

One factor previously mentioned is the expertise of the owner. My opinion is that it is impossible for an owner to get the full potential out of a dogs training unless they are A: actively involved with the pro and training the dog or B: have trained a dog or numerous dogs to that level. The subtle nuances necessary to handle a dog are not easily learned and the methodology of training isn't apparent to a newcomer. Transference of authority can be a real issue.

For example, I have several well trained dogs. They understand basic obedience and are mostly well behaved. My wife has a basic understanding of the commands used and what is expected. My dogs are total untrained heathens around her. Dogs are situational learners, and they have learned that she will not follow through with discipline. I really wonder how many of these "failures" are attributed to the trainer vs an untrained owner.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

John Kelder # 168 X 2 !! Dunk shot . This is the blog/online generation where they expect quick answers to a hands on activity but do not want to expend the energy to learn. Learning is never easy nor to master. Clubs, listen/watch/ask/mentors/learn/practice/apply = skills/knowledge/abilities.

Many may be called but few are chosen.


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## Payce (Jun 25, 2015)

Agreed! Started working with structure 3 years ago, attending events, joined a retriever club, etc. I was clueless and it showed in both my enjoyment and in the dogs performance. During that time a pro worked with my older dog and cleaned up a lot of my mistakes and within a few months many of the habits were back. My fault, but some key points started to sink in. New puppy now and I'm not clueless, but still NOT knowledgable. Work pup, screw up, contact pro, get solid advice, learn and move on. Now it's fun because we both are learning and having fun doing it. The great part? Knowng it will take years to get decent at this and very much looking forward to the journey!
On working with pro's, not met a lot of them, but the ones I have are super to talk to, knowledgable, and very supportive of this rookie. No doubt there are some that aren't really professional, but from my experience (which is limited), very few and would agree most of us that are not involved regularly mess up the pros's training, if we don't take the time to learn. 
Met lots of great people!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

swliszka said:


> John Kelder # 168 X 2 !! Dunk shot . This is the blog/online generation where they expect quick answers to a hands on activity but do not want to expend the energy to learn. Learning is never easy nor to master. Clubs, listen/watch/ask/mentors/learn/practice/apply = skills/knowledge/abilities.
> 
> Many may be called but few are chosen.


Generational or not, I do think it does come down to priorities. The same folks that will spend six months researching the best flat screen or years on the kids' college choices seem not even to know that there is something to know in this area. They talk to one or two folks and Fido is with a pro the next weekend. While most knowledgeable folks will give good advice, even if it is damning with faint praise, even the biggest hacks as trainers have clients that rave about their pro, so if you ask the wrong person and make a hasty decision...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

DoubleHaul said:


> Generational or not, I do think it does come down to priorities. The same folks that will spend six months researching the best flat screen or years on the kids' college choices seem not even to know that there is something to know in this area. They talk to one or two folks and Fido is with a pro the next weekend. While most knowledgeable folks will give good advice, even if it is damning with faint praise, even the biggest hacks as trainers have clients that rave about their pro, so if you ask the wrong person and make a hasty decision...


Absolutely true in all areas of dog ownership as I see it from inside "the business". The dog is usually pretty far down on the priority list of both time and money.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

John Kelder said:


> seriously - results are on EE . . and multiple FB pages .. Looking for a FT trainer ? See who has handled to FC as a pro. look at the AM and cross reference to the open . You will see who is bringing home the blue . Same thing with Master . Look on EE for results . in front of your noses regards ....


I was going to stay off this thread and I won't share my unethical pro experience, but I have to disagree with you John that this is the sure fire way to find an ethical pro. What if a newbie is looking for basics on their dog and they have no idea that the pro handling a successful dog had absolutely nothing to do with that dog's basics and possibly any of the training prior to this pro adding them to their truck? What if the only dogs anyone sees with this pro are the few doing well and the pro has a kennel full of bread and butter dogs that aren't getting anything close to what the pro is promising the client? It happens.

M


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I "stayed away" from this thread until reading what Miriam posted, _"I was going to stay off this thread and I won't share my unethical pro experience"_

Personally, I would never "out" a trainer on a public forum. I have always believed that "bad things happen" when you don't realize that some of the blame
is on you. Being gullible or naive is not an excuse. In the end, whatever happens to any of my dogs is on me. I have 12 year old sleeping in the living room 
that has a few skeletons in her closet that could have been avoided it I had reacted properly to what I "observed with my own eyes" at the end of one month.
On the second visit, I took her home....too late.....to this day the blame is mine. There is an expression in dog training that goes "You own what you condone."

To repeat....being naive and/or gullible are not excuses. Getting even is a waste of time and tends to deny culpability.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> I "stayed away" from this thread until reading what Miriam posted, _"I was going to stay off this thread and I won't share my unethical pro experience"_
> 
> Personally, I would never "out" a trainer on a public forum. I have always believed that "bad things happen" when you don't realize that some of the blame
> is on you. Being gullible or naive is not an excuse. In the end, whatever happens to any of my dogs is on me. I have 12 year old sleeping in the living room
> ...


Sending you a PM.

M


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Miriam Wade said:


> I was going to stay off this thread and I won't share my unethical pro experience, but I have to disagree with you John that this is the sure fire way to find an ethical pro. What if a newbie is looking for basics on their dog and they have no idea that the pro handling a successful dog had absolutely nothing to do with that dog's basics and possibly any of the training prior to this pro adding them to their truck? What if the only dogs anyone sees with this pro are the few doing well and the pro has a kennel full of bread and butter dogs that aren't getting anything close to what the pro is promising the client? It happens.
> 
> M


At no time in my post did I say this is the way to find an ethical pro . I said it is a sure way to find the results of a pro . They can draw their own conclusions . The blue comes from training and talent regards..


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

3:18


96 year old still training his *Field trial *dogs!
youtube.com

[/QUOTE]
.
How the heck did you find a video clip of Gordon Powers?


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

Breck said:


> 3:18
> 
> 
> 96 year old still training his *Field trial *dogs!
> youtube.com


.
How the heck did you find a video clip of Gordon Powers?[/QUOTE]

He celebrated his 100th birthday last April. He's still training at Prado.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Arnie said:


> .
> How the heck did you find a video clip of Gordon Powers?


He celebrated his 100th birthday last April. He's still training at Prado.[/QUOTE]

Very cool! Hope I'm still playing at 80+! ;-)


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