# Water blinds-confidence



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

So I've searched and read through many older rtf threads but just haven't come across the answer. 

My dog is through FTP, TT, swim-by, and we are early/mid transition. I run a lot of (land) 3 peat walk arounds and some cold blinds. Pretty solid, handles "well" out to about 100. We are working on that as well. Hunt test only dog. 

On water, I wanted to build confidence, so I did a a few pile/sight blinds and also a few cold, pepper the shoreline with bumpers, can't miss if you swim situations. My pup just doesn't seem to have confidence in the water and has popped several times within 10-15 yards of hitting the water. Early in the session, first or second send, I'll just stand there and let him go, not giving him the cast. If he keeps looking back, I've used back-nick-back with light pressure and no cast. Mixed results...I use light pressure in water as he is much more sensitive in water than on land. I read this as a confidence issue, he runs very well on land and runs water marks without issue. 

So, what are some drills to build water confidence? He goes on "back", just need to get him to keep going once in the water. 

Should i simplify further, baby steps to build up to longer water blinds? I don't want to baby him. I haven't pushed him past 50-60 yards of water.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Have you tried doing nothing when he pops and waiting him out?


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Yes, I mentioned it but didn't read as clear looking back at it...

I read others discuss that giving him the cast is giving him what he wants, reassurance... basically a crutch. If it's early in the session where we can get past it, I just stand there and look toward the blind. If he does again and again or turns to come in, I'll use back-nick-back without a cast... let him go a little bit, whistle sit, cast. I have made the blinds straight forward enough that I'm not fighting many factors and don't get into casting battles


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Have you tried some walk out type blinds - sitting him at the line and walking around the pond to plant the blinds - using birds? 

When it comes to confidence on water blinds, I'd try to do everything I could to get him wanting to go...that includes using birds - either dead or live shackled.

What is he like with water marks?


----------



## PDO (Jul 25, 2014)

I just went through this with my dog. Taught channel blinds first. I found a spot where there were 3 ~70-150 yard channels 8 or so yards wide within a short walk of each other so I could 3 peat channel blinds each session. Taught one channel a day by having dog watch me plant the bumpers in the middle of the channel and then run with the entry right from the waters edge. Came back the next day and ran the first channel cold with white bumpers and taught another one. Next day taught the last one, ran second one cold with white bumpers, ran the first one I taught cold with orange. Continue to progress (and started waiting a few days or a week between sessions to make it more fuzzy in the dogs mind) until I could run all three cold with orange including where I could back up 30+ yards from the entry on each. We had some popping, also. At first I just verbally gave a "back" before he could actually pop; when it persisted, I reinforced on back once and that was the last I saw it--BUT do this in a situation where the dog has a large familiarity of what to do, like swim down the channel and get the bumper! Found some new channels and ran them completely cold and there was a very evident "I know what I am doing" attitude--lined most of them. Thereafter we just took the 3x3 approach to water with long swims across water, reentries, more cold channels, etc. And lots of go-get-em water marks. 

A situation like this really made for a seamless introduction. I would work hard on Google earth to find as many suitable channels as you can and start by teaching them and slowly increasing the difficulty. I think this is an instance where good grounds and a number of great channels really make the difference. I didn't believe it until I saw it, but dogs can really envision the channel picture. (We also did a swimby tune-up before any of this water blind work--it is GOLD!)


----------



## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Send him square into open water on a cold blind. Toss a bumper over his head in front of him, you'll see another gear kick-in with the splash. Build on this.


----------



## PDO (Jul 25, 2014)

Cast him OUT of the pop. Better yet, don't let him pop and give a vocal or back with force when you see the dog slow down. The dog wants to hear the whistle, set up situations where it won't have to hear the whistle until you get the momentum the dog needs.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

most blind drills you do on land to build confidence & momentum you can also use in the water. 

if you do not have a confident / lots of momentum dog on Land you cannot expect to have the same in the water. 

tune-up drill, tune-up swim-by, mark-blind & sight-blinds will built confidence & momentum.


----------



## jgsanders (Jul 9, 2015)

I start at the water's edge on my dog when the goal is promote confidence and stop popping. It takes away the imaginary line in the dog's head that they are about to cross over. Then back up in increments as confidence grows. 

Sounds like he/she likes water if they are doing the water marks. Just needs confidence. 

Have fun!


----------



## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Channel blinds or shoreline blinds (not real tight to shore) give the dog a frame of reference. If they are out in the middle of some water they can feel lost and flounder. Having a source of reference can help build confidence in the water in general.

Not a bad idea to do some permanent blinds. Let him see you plant the bumper and keep going back to those blinds occasionally, to build momentum. Plus you can add in some factors later and get them comfortable fighting factors when they are going somewhere they are confident in. But don't do it too often as that confidence has to transfer over to cold situations.


----------



## Goose Man (Aug 26, 2013)

I know some will disagree but put a white bucket on a stake so they can focus on something to build confidence then gradually reduce visibility to pole and then nothing.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I use these too..the smaller 2 gallon ones. They work well as long as they aren't over used. Just removed a bucket from a 75 yd water blind yesterday and Toby lined it perfectly. Today I will remove bucket from blind number 2 (80yd) after running blind number 1.. hopefully bucket from blind number 3 (100yd) will be removed tomorrow.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Look into Dennis Voigt's Retrievers ONLINE. Great source of info in training retrievers and more. Particularly like his 3x3 approach to blinds. 
Walkaround, memory, & cold blinds in sets of 3.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

anyone else think there is a potential hole in Brett's swim-by if he's getting this response?


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks for the responses. I have been slowly doing these things... Guessing I just need more reps. I have a place I can get 130 channel blinds. But getting there once a week will be tough. I have a couple ponds around i can get some downshore blinds and set up some permanent blinds. Will use a few markers to build confidence. As well. 

I bought one set of the retriever online articles, need to look at the other sets. 

Thanks again.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

bshaf said:


> So I've searched and read through many older rtf threads but just haven't come across the answer.
> 
> My dog is through FTP, TT, swim-by, and we are early/mid transition. I run a lot of (land) 3 peat walk arounds and some cold blinds. Pretty solid, handles "well" out to about 100. We are working on that as well. Hunt test only dog.
> 
> ...



This is your dog....this dog needs to understand you...
Teach the dog to understand you...do it in their terms...
My penny....


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

For a dog that "just doesn't seem to have confidence in water", the indirect solution to running blinds is a ton more water marks, including doubles requiring memory. Get these going out to 200 yards with success. Then go back to my 3 X 3 Method, including running some of the marks as blinds. For the idea of multiple sends do some simple 5 leg Chinese drills or a swim-by Tune-up, perhaps both with white bumpers to start. The key to your problem is your use of the word "few"!! And teach him "popping" is not allowed.

Cheers


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> anyone else think there is a potential hole in Brett's swim-by if he's getting this response?


Incomplete swim-by would cause popping? I gave him lots of free backs. Never had a no go during swim-by. By the end had him reliably completing swim-by. Felt it was better to move on when I did. Is a tune up drill in order?


----------



## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> anyone else think there is a potential hole in Brett's swim-by if he's getting this response?


Think the dog is going to the distance of his stop and cast in the swim by and popping?


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> anyone else think there is a potential hole in Brett's swim-by if he's getting this response?


I don't know about anybody else but I don't think this means a potential hole in swim-by. While the swim-by may have had holes, a well-done swim-by dog may still do what is described. There is a big diff between the swim-by drill and a "cold water blind" in a new place. AND some dogs do not respond to the "force back" well when catapulted to a field situation. A review might well be helpful to understand the "back" but just as important is to develop the dog's confidence in the water with understanding to just keep going.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

bshaf said:


> Incomplete swim-by would cause popping? I gave him lots of free backs. Never had a no go during swim-by. By the end had him reliably completing swim-by. Felt it was better to move on when I did. *Is a tune up drill in order?*


Hello...you are not listening...What does your dog say....?

Is this a human comsept(spelling) not related in your goals?


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

BJGatley said:


> Hello...you are not listening...What does your dog say....?
> 
> Is this a human comsept(spelling) not related in your goals?


I presume you mean human concept? However, if Brett can solve his dilemma from this as well as your post #16, he's a better man than I. BJ what are you saying? That his dog says he does not have confidence to do cold water blinds? He already knows that!!-he wants help so tell us what you would do after you "read your dog!"


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Hello...you are not listening...What does your dog say....?
> 
> Is this a human comsept(spelling) not related in your goals?


Gotta be honest, I'm trying to listen and really try to read my dog... not sure the best were able to read their first dog. 

This being my first go round, I'm trying to work through an issue, rather head off a problem before it becomes worse or a full blown habit.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

bshaf said:


> Gotta be honest, I'm trying to listen and really try to read my dog... not sure the best were able to read their first dog.
> 
> This being my first go round, I'm trying to work through an issue, rather head off a problem before it becomes worse or a full blown habit.


Right on....I understand.. To work through something...you need to find you and then relay that to your dog....
My penny....


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

bshaf said:


> Never had a no go during swim-by.


Not disagreeing with Dennis by asking this - he's far more experienced than me and yes, you can put the dog on an absolutely solid foundation and then have something come up when you try to extrapolate that to the field. Happens more times than not, I think. Mt first retriever did it on channel blinds and had to be worked through it in that particular circumstance. Never was sure what caused it although I could guess it was too much pressure and not enough teaching on that particular concept. It was boring to me so I probably rushed it.

As to reviewing swim by- a no-go is one thing but did he ever anticipate the stop in swim-by and pop? That would have given you a chance to make the appropriate correction and communicate with him that "stopping isn't cool" in a setting he's comfortable with. Even with that it may still occur in the field, but he will have been corrected for it in a comfortable setting without a whole lot of other variables to cloud his understanding. 

Just thinking conceptually about what may have happened.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

bshaf said:


> Yes, I mentioned it but didn't read as clear looking back at it...
> 
> I read others discuss that giving him the cast is giving him what he wants, reassurance... basically a crutch. If it's early in the session where we can get past it, I just stand there and look toward the blind. If he does again and again or turns to come in, I'll use back-nick-back without a cast... let him go a little bit, whistle sit, cast. I have made the blinds straight forward enough that I'm not fighting many factors and don't get into casting battles


The dilemma with popping is fixing it without making the dog anticipate help or direction from Dad. The confidence to go isn't there, so they love it when you blow a whistle and take them off the hook. On the other hand, "back-burn-back" can lead to a spinning pop and go at a certain distance. 

For real young dogs I like to anticipate the point where the dog will pop, have a hidden thrower across the small water throw a well timed pop up bird. This takes a savy help who can read momentum and time the throw perfectly. The point is to get the dog anticipating the pop up across water, so he launches off line with confidence and momentum. After just a few times you can just plant the bird and the dog gets it.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

BJGatley said:


> Right on....I understand.. To work through something...you need to find you and then relay that to your dog....
> My penny....


I'd love to take a peak inside your medicine cabinet!!


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Right on....I understand.. To work through something...you need to find you and then relay that to your dog....
> My penny....


My best guess is that he inferring that, I'm not confident, therefore my dog isn't as well. When I set these water "blinds" up, I make them so he can't fail if he just goes. I'm supremely confident he is more than capable to go, take a cast if needed and succeed. Plan to pepper the shore and use markers, make it a can't miss situation. 

If that's not what he means, then SERENITY NOW! I give up.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Brett 

I'd seek help from a good amateur or find a good training group in ur area.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> Right on....I understand.. To work through something...you need to find you and then relay that to your dog....
> My penny....


I want what ur smoke'n. u sure ur not from Colorado. lol


----------



## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

I don't like to use white bumpers or white buckets because later I would have to "untrain" suction to white lilly pad blossoms, white rocks etc. Instead, I use orange bumpers and typically have most floating to send the message that water is the place to be!

For dogs in transition, I like to focus on lining and casting as separate drills.

This drill helps build water blind casting confidence and builds long casting success:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fV5-MzzZOY

I think it helps build a good water attitude.

This drill is simply one tool on the building-block journey to ultimately running cold (unknown destination) blinds.

Unlike pile-based drills, each cast is from a new location to a new destination. 

The drill is fluid and you can be you can be as simple (teaching ten overs into the wind) or 
as complex (alternating long left and long right angle back cast off a peninsula) as you want 
depending on your dog's training level.
It also may include a suction factor if the last bumper thrown is not the bumper to cast to.

Most retrievers find a fun drill because they succeed with each cast.
And it simplifies teaching as it pure casting drill, not worried about initial lines, stopping, etc.

It may also help "spatial memory" in multiple marks as it focuses on memory 
as the retriever must remember where the 3 bumpers are located.

This drill helps build good initial lines and skinny water entries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyPM4_QiW6Y


This is a pure lining drill where the level of difficulty is determined by the dog's lining experience. 
The drill teaches the dog to focus, maintain the line, swimming past diversion bumpers.

All entries are angle entries and after each lining success, the next send can be skinnier and farther away from water. 
Ideally the level of difficulty should be that all six bumpers are successfully lined.

The drill also helps the handler read the dog's initial line intent/focus and communicate the correct line via push/pull cues.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I actually like teaching a dog how to deal with the suction of 'white' in the field... you never know when snow goose decoys will be used, or some piece of trash will glint and pull a dog off line.... Using white buckets or lining stakes is somewhat like an extension of wagon wheel drill with orange and white bumpers and I think can make it more clear to the dog to go where sent, regardless of what is seen. But that is MO and I know there are many who would rather not deal with having to teach their dog to pull off something that catches their eye.

The video shows a similar drill I have done on land and water both and is a fun drill.


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Miss skeeter,

In the 2nd drill, does the dog see the bumpers thrown/planted? Or are these set as cold blinds? 

For one reason or another, my pup has never really enjoyed walking baseball on land, ran it quite a bit but he just never really got it, so can't imagine he'll run it well on water.


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> For a dog that "just doesn't seem to have confidence in water", the indirect solution to running blinds is a ton more water marks, including doubles requiring memory. Get these going out to 200 yards with success. Then go back to my 3 X 3 Method, including running some of the marks as blinds. For the idea of multiple sends do some simple 5 leg Chinese drills or a swim-by Tune-up, perhaps both with white bumpers to start. The key to your problem is your use of the word "few"!! And teach him "popping" is not allowed.
> 
> Cheers


Are you saying running 200 yard water doubles? I know I'm new to the game but isn't that big dog stuff? 

Or are you saying water doubles to build memory and use big water marks to stretch him out on water?


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

About this stage I start running, 5 stake drills through water. BIG WHITE POSTS, dog has already learned to run to them in the pattern field, thus when they are in the water and see them they run to them. Start working on lining build a lot of momentum, Then start casting off the post other to piles that aren't marked, or switch the post to the Orange side, so they can't see them until they get closer. When they have a target to go to, they are more comfortable going, and you can work on proper casting and lining. . You can also correct for popping, as they have a target, they know they should be going, and are already used to being corrected for not going. You don't want to fight too many battles at once, just coming out of forcing FTP Water-force etc. the dog has a bunch of things in his mind that they've been tuaght (on 1 Pond, in 1 location), but aren't ingrained yet, so give the dog a target, and work on solidifying (going, lining, taking proper casting, sitting). Also start establishing permanent blinds, that they know to run to from any distance, any direction. These are unmarked blind that are always in the same place and safe to run to. You need to do the drills in different areas as your establishing pictures; dogs are place learners, they'll memorize a single field, but don't easily transfer it to other locations, until you work the same concept-setup in multiple locals, so they understand "the picture" and not just the location. You also want to put the Post-bumpers up out of the water, bumpers on the shore-line tend to re-enforce the natural barrier and you'll have a time of it getting the dog to exit the water, if he's used to the bumper always being right on the shore. Much easier to stop a dog short who wants to exit water; than get a dog used to stopping at the shore line to cast out of the water.


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

bshaf said:


> Are you saying running 200 yard water doubles? I know I'm new to the game but isn't that big dog stuff?
> 
> Or are you saying water doubles to build memory and use big water marks to stretch him out on water?



I am saying "build" to 200 yard water marks. Start with singles. Progress to doubles. Develop his comfort and confidence around water using exciting marks. He will be develop drive to go to non visible targets like white (although you can make the bird/bumper visible to him when he gets close).

Meanwhile, also work on the methods I suggested to you in the PM answer to you PM questions today.


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I am saying "build" to 200 yard water marks. Start with singles. Progress to doubles. Develop his comfort and confidence around water using exciting marks. He will be develop drive to go to non visible targets like white (although you can make the bird/bumper visible to him when he gets close).
> 
> Meanwhile, also work on the methods I suggested to you in the PM answer to you PM questions today.


That's what I thought you meant, just wanted to clarify! 

Thanks all! Will update with progress!


----------



## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I am saying "build" to 200 yard water marks. Start with singles. Progress to doubles. Develop his comfort and confidence around water using exciting marks. He will be develop drive to go to non visible targets like white (although you can make the bird/bumper visible to him when he gets close).
> 
> Meanwhile, also work on the methods I suggested to you in the PM answer to you PM questions today.


To take it a bit further do you ever pick out marks with factors, repeat them until a dog can do them as singles over a period of time, then do them as doubles, then repeat them until a dog can do them as doubles over a period of time, then do them as blinds?


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

DL said:


> To take it a bit further do you ever pick out marks with factors, repeat them until a dog can do them as singles over a period of time, then do them as doubles, then repeat them until a dog can do them as doubles over a period of time, then do them as blinds?


Yes! I do this on home property with young dogs with emphasis on "over a period of time". One of biggest reasons for failing water marks is returning to old fall. Tread carefully!


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

bshaf said:


> My best guess is that he inferring that, I'm not confident, therefore my dog isn't as well. When I set these water "blinds" up, I make them so he can't fail if he just goes. I'm supremely confident he is more than capable to go, take a cast if needed and succeed. Plan to pepper the shore and use markers, make it a can't miss situation.
> 
> If that's not what he means, then SERENITY NOW! I give up.


The drills are not the problem... the owner rush through in knowing dog and that is the problem.
If first time owners slowed down and understand their dogs then when it does come time to start drills, they have a grasp on their behavior...


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> The drills are not the problem... the owner rush through in knowing dog and that is the problem.
> If first time owners slowed down and understand their dogs then when it does come time to start drills, they have a grasp on their behavior...


Very wax on, wax off... I'm sure it makes sense to you, but your response raises more questions than it answers. 

I'm betting there never has and never will be a first time trainer that gets it perfect. 

I'm giving it all I've got... just trying to get help and feedback as I go. I believe some people just plain get animals, some struggle but work at it. I hope to one day have the ability to read a dog as well as some here, heck maybe you can... if so, your a crap communicator, so work on that, I'll work on understanding dog behavior. 

Guessing my boy Huck will teach me more than any dog I'll own from here on. Everything we do are firsts for us... it's nothing short of great.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

bshaf said:


> Very wax on, wax off... I'm sure it makes sense to you, but your response raises more questions than it answers.
> 
> I'm betting there never has and never will be a first time trainer that gets it perfect.
> 
> ...



Believe it or not...I am at a higher level.....if you don't understand, then maybe that will come later....just saying....


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> Believe it or not...I am at a higher level.....if you don't understand, then maybe that will come later....just saying....


No question BJ is at a much higher level!


----------



## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Yes! I do this on home property with young dogs with emphasis on "over a period of time". One of biggest reasons for failing water marks is returning to old fall. Tread carefully!


Thanks, my dog training friend/mentor did some of that.


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

captainjack said:


> No question BJ is at a much higher level!


Truly - Idaho is (probably) a higher elevation than all of PA


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

You said, _"I use light pressure in water as he is much more sensitive in water than on land."_

Spent quite awhile working through the same issue "more sensitive in water than on land". The decision to make water exciting above all else.....and
focusing on that expectation (excitement) overcame the issue. The process was not a few weeks of "quick fix". It began with "the water barrage" 
which is a series of "rapid fire" fun bumpers plus a lot of marks in water. The distance was increased (longer and longer swims on marks) with no
shoreline (cheating) factors to deal with. During the increase in swimming distance phase, the "barrage" kept excitement up. The rationale was to
decrease the sensitivity issue in water. A regular diet of ducks is a good thing. 

Meanwhile, (when depends), short in and out blinds across channels began to be mingled in between water marks with the "barrage" still a common
theme. Pounce had no recollection of being sensitive because it was swept away by the ongoing excitement aspect of sessions........and we did not
attempt to use the collar to "make her become less sensitive". Resist the temptation. 

Big water marks/swims were the final phase in making the water sensitive issue a non-issue. "I want to." takes longer than "Because I said so." 
Total immersion (no pun intended) in fun "stuff" depends on a trainer's creativity. Do what the dog needs.....gradually.....and keep it exciting.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

captainjack said:


> No question BJ is at a much higher level!


That's funny!!, .....and must be true
I don't care who you are!!!


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

It's really sad that there are ugly people out there on this forum...I am wondering how many apples in a barrel I will find bad...
I know dogs...get use to it....period!!!!


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> It's really sad that there are ugly people out there on this forum...I am wondering how many apples in a barrel I will find bad...
> I know dogs...get use to it....period!!!!


None dispute that as far as I know. But no one understands the advice you give because you speak in riddles. You're at too high a level for us mortals.

BJ: Close your eyes. What do you hear?
Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.
BJ: Do you hear your own heartbeat?
Caine: No.
BJ: Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?
Caine: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
BJ: Young man, how is it that you do not?

or Master Po


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

captainjack said:


> None dispute that as far as I know. But no one understands the advice you give because you speak in riddles. You're at too high a level for us mortals.


You are being an ass....and you know it...
My riddles as you say, have a purpose in understanding the big picture in why we do this...
It has nothing to do will drills as you portray it so much...
Understand the dog and you understand them in developing the drills....


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> You are being an ass....and you know it...
> My riddles as you say, have a purpose in understanding the big picture in why we do this...
> It has nothing to do will drills as you portray it so much...
> Understand the dog and you understand them in developing the drills....


Understanding the dog without understanding the drills gives you what exactly? 

No one here is arguing that I just need to go run drills without thinking of the"why"...I explained the situation in hopes people could give me ideas to move forward. I'm open to all options and ideas. I'm learning up break the process down, understand it even... the most helpful dog training tips I've received have been brutally honest, simple, and to the point. 

I think critically, love solving problems. Your comments have not helped me see a bigger picture at this point... It makes for a more lively discussion though.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

bshaf said:


> Understanding the dog without understanding the drills gives you what exactly?
> 
> No one here is arguing that I just need to go run drills without thinking of the"why"...I explained the situation in hopes people could give me ideas to move forward. I'm open to all options and ideas. I'm learning up break the process down, understand it even... the most helpful dog training tips I've received have been brutally honest, simple, and to the point.
> 
> I think critically, love solving problems. Your comments have not helped me see a bigger picture at this point... It makes for a more lively discussion though.


LOL....the issue here...and I will repeat that...You are doing man made stuff that a dog doesn't understand...in knowing your dog and develop a trust, then you can achieve that drill....
Makes sense? We need to know dog to achieve that early on... That is were is starts....at you and puppy....


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> You are being an ass....and you know it...
> My riddles as you say, have a purpose in understanding the big picture in why we do this...
> It has nothing to do will drills as you portray it so much...
> Understand the dog and you understand them in developing the drills....


Could you please give me some examples of what you are trying to convey by this statement ..? There is more to dog training than just doing ABC drills to teach the dog a certain behavior..I'm trying to learn from your comments on the post you have made but need some help ...Thanks Steve S


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> Could you please give me some examples of what you are trying to convey by this statement ..? There is more to dog training than just doing ABC drills to teach the dog a certain behavior..I'm trying to learn from your comments on the post you have made but need some help ...Thanks Steve S


Ha, ha, never assume because a man has no eyes he cannot see. Close your eyes. What do you hear?


----------



## Brian Cagle (Dec 31, 2015)

captainjack said:


> ha, ha, never assume because a man has no eyes he cannot see. Close your eyes. What do you hear?



lmao!!!!!!


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> The dilemma with popping is fixing it without making the dog anticipate help or direction from Dad. The confidence to go isn't there, so they love it when you blow a whistle and take them off the hook. On the other hand, "back-burn-back" can lead to a spinning pop and go at a certain distance.
> 
> For real young dogs I like to anticipate the point where the dog will pop, have a hidden thrower across the small water throw a well timed pop up bird. This takes a savy help who can read momentum and time the throw perfectly. The point is to get the dog anticipating the pop up across water, so he launches off line with confidence and momentum. After just a few times you can just plant the bird and the dog gets it.


]

Never blow a whistle when you think the dog is going to pop or peeks at you for help..Just raise your arm and command back ( don't worry about correct direction of spin if you are late, try to unspin if possible though ) watch the dogs head and he/she will tell you when they are going to pop or peek ..As soon as you see the head start to turn give a verbal back..depending on dogs level of training and how serious the problem has become pressure may be included...Steve S


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Yes! I do this on home property with young dogs with emphasis on "over a period of time". One of biggest reasons for failing water marks is returning to old fall. Tread carefully!


I believe the reason dogs fail marks is because they don't know where they are...not enough memory..so they return to an old place they found some thing before ...natural instinct from food hunting days and a taught response by trainers in drills...They know they have to go when told to so they go ....Steve S


----------



## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

steve schreiner said:


> I believe the reason dogs fail marks is because they don't know where they are...not enough memory..so they return to an old place they found some thing before ...natural instinct from food hunting days and a taught response by trainers in drills...They know they have to go when told to so they go ....Steve S


I agree dogs fail marks because they do not know where they are and maybe a few more reasons. 

So you are saying the dog fails the mark just thrown due to lack of memory but go's to a old fall area because Of WHAT ? Has to be Memory of old fall , yes , no ? 

Or Are You are saying the dog has a Good Long Term Memory and they switch to old fall and this is Proof the dog Lacks SHORT TERM Memory and maybe focus. Maybe the dog has good long term memory with even a switching issue . What is your solution , more marks ?


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

James Seibel said:


> I agree dogs fail marks because they do not know where they are and maybe a few more reasons.
> 
> So you are saying the dog fails the mark just thrown due to lack of memory but go's to a old fall area because Of WHAT ? Has to be Memory of old fall , yes , no ?
> 
> Or Are You are saying the dog has a Good Long Term Memory and they switch to old fall and this is Proof the dog Lacks SHORT TERM Memory and maybe focus. Maybe the dog has good long term memory with even a switching issue . What is your solution , more marks ?



NO,,,there is no other reason ...If the dog knows where it is they will go get it...They may cheat ,avoid cover or factors but they will go get the bird if they know where it is ,.....If we say they got lost is the reason then we are making excuses for the dog...

The reason for returning to an old fall is because they know they found something there before...They have forgotten the original mark for different reasons...May have not got a good look at it,dark back ground ,too much desire for that next mark which is going to be a flyer ( 3 gunners out there.)...ect....
What is the difference between short term and long term ? I believe it is just memory ...How long a dog can recall something is determined by how well it has been ingrained..Pattern blinds for instance ..I have been told we ( people) have a photo graphic memory, it is the ability to recall that is the problem .... some are better than others...The answer is develop the ability to recall pictures of birds they have seen fall..marks..Marks are like the old type writer keys imprinting a letter on the paper ..some make a bigger or darker impression than others ... 
Solution ....Poison bird blinds are a very good way to develop memory ....I have run three blinds before giving the dog the mark ...It takes practice but they can recall it...An interrupted set of marks is testing the dogs ability to recall something that was thrown..Forget all the hype of reason given as to it not being a fair test ...It separates the dogs that can recall from those that can't .... 
Here is a drill we did when we were running field trial...Put a gunner in the field and throw a single mark with all the dogs watching ( we had 8 ) put all of them back on the truck ..Move the gunner some distance from the original spot...get the youngest dog off the truck first and pick up the mark ...focus...the oldest or most experienced last .... The dog will want to run to the gunner the first few times this drill is done..focus and memory will come ....a no pressure drill...Steve S


----------



## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

Steve : 

Let me clarify what i mean by what I call short term memory . A water triple has been thrown . It takes 10-30 min to pick up the marks, rather the dog pins the marks or not. Can dog remember the last bird of the triple ? If the dog can not then I say the dog lacks short term memory. 

Land triple, dog go's into area of fall sets up a hunt leaves and go's to where it picked up first or second bird then it is a Switch. Dog lacks ability to hunt or confidence to stay in area of fall when it can not pin this mark , maybe for number of things. Call it what you want.Dog leaves area , It is still a switch . 

I have seen dogs go into area of mark thrown , can not find mark just thrown and leave and go to a old blind or mark dog picked up yesterday or weeks ago and can be many yards away. I call that Long term memory. Dog can remember by cataloged picture or what ever you want to call it a mark or blind from long ago. But can not remember a mark just thrown . I see this as lack of short term memory. Dog has to still have memory in order to go to that old fall. It is still a switch as I see it . 

Lets say I tell you my name you forget it 30 seconds from now. As I see it , your short term memory is poor . But you can remember friends name . Why ? Probably because you heard or spoke their name many times.


----------



## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Dogs remember where they have been but not where they haven't. Same as you and I on that count. This morning someone told me they've got real good coffee at a place a couple blocks away but i went back to the mediocre place I went yesterday. Because I remember it, because I've been there. 


If a dog knows where a bird is, he will go there. Unless its a discipline issue, something like he won't do a long go bird and a check down memory bird- but even then, if he knows where they are he will get them, just not in order. 


If my dog wasn't doing 200 yard water marks- if he hadn't been trained through exposure to watermarks, how to get in and stay in, and taught through watermarks when and where to get out or get back in- if he's wasn't there- I wouldn't consider asking for a 200 yard water blind. A well educated dog that expects to get in and swim to the end, and then take more water if it's there will be experienced enough to run big water blinds. But I don't think you can build water confidence by handling. Every hamdle erodes a dogs confidence. Land or water, Mark or blind. Some show it more than others.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Since the op ask about confidence on water blinds this thread has some what been hijacked...not completely though...My question is ...What is the difference between a pop up blind or marked blind and a memory mark ...? To walk around and drop the blind while the dog is watching or have some one toss the blind once the dog has been sent differs how ..? 

" Every handle erodes a dogs confidence." jhnnythndr 
I disagree with this statement ..dogs learn by doing and by doing build confidence..Handling is just another way of getting the dog to a destination ...I agree that handling on marks the smart dogs will run out and not hunt but wait for you to help out in what ever fashion you have been doing in the past...If done too many times...On blinds if you nit pick the line and never let the dog run/swim you will not build confidence ,you will develop doubt and a dependency on the handler...Helping the dog must be done in a fashion that instills confidence and independence not dependency...just like it does in people....Steve S


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

confidence cannot be built without success. What success is to the dog may not or is not the same as what we may think of as success.

I think running a blind is like chaining together a bunch of commands. The dog believes or hopes that at the end of each of cast, it will get a reward (duck or bumper). Each cast that does not then result in the reward then erodes the confidence the dog has that he/she is going to get the bird - esp if/when collar corrections also come into play. 

That is my thoughts on the subject, anyway.


----------



## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Every handle erodes confidence maybe a little strong sounding- but only if you view it as a bad thing. Plenty of times I want to erode my dogs confidence, and plenty of times I don't. But if you can accept that point of view, and understand why it is essentially true in the moment, and therefore holds well as a long term generality- you can understand that water confidence isn't built on blinds. That was my point, however poorly worded or conveyed.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

jhnnythndr said:


> Every handle erodes confidence maybe a little strong sounding- but only if you view it as a bad thing. Plenty of times I want to erode my dogs confidence, and plenty of times I don't. But if you can accept that point of view, and understand why it is essentially true in the moment, and therefore holds well as a long term generality- you can understand that water confidence isn't built on blinds. That was my point, however poorly worded or conveyed.


The dog should never view handling as a bad thing...There are times I want to change my dogs mind on where they believe (think) it is ..but I don't want them afraid of the whistle and cast...Changing a dogs mind can be hard at times...We build in destinations during the training ..IE:by the point or over the point parallel shore,behind the gun ,ect...But we want dogs to ( as some say to think ) go where sent and if they get the wrong picture it is our fault sometimes...not the dogs...Previous training creates patterns in the dogs head...Balance...


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Tobias said:


> confidence cannot be built without success. What success is to the dog may not or is not the same as what we may think of as success.
> 
> I think running a blind is like chaining together a bunch of commands. The dog believes or hopes that at the end of each of cast, it will get a reward (duck or bumper). Each cast that does not then result in the reward then erodes the confidence the dog has that he/she is going to get the bird - esp if/when collar corrections also come into play.
> 
> That is my thoughts on the subject, anyway.



This was very evident in the early days of the hunt test...I have watch many dogs blow up and self hunt after the fifth whistle...not so much today ..better training ....This is why I bonce the dogs around the pattern field (5leg ) so they will learn to just go where told ...Steve S


----------



## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I agree...and was going to get into that tangent. I think some dogs have a harder time figuring it out.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> This was very evident in the early days of the hunt test..*.I have watch many dogs blow up and self hunt after the fifth whistle*...not so much today ..better training ....This is why I bonce the dogs around the pattern field (5leg ) so they will learn to just go where told ...Steve S


A very experienced person told me one time,,, Its not about teaching a Blind,,Teaching a line,, its about teaching them to HANDLE.. A dog should be VERY comfortable being Handled,,and have a LOT of whistles in them.. JMHO


http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfar...es/Starting Cold Blinds by Danny Farmer_1.pdf


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

You hear folks talk about their perceptions of an exceptional dog....

You hear the following statement quite often when they describe them:

"They are great markers and very compliant."
"They run their blinds just like they run their Marks" Their description of an exceptional dog..

How many here think it is an exception,,an not necessarily the rule?

Another statement I have heard..

"Dogs that mark really well,,Usually dont run very good blinds and dogs that run exceptional blinds,, very often,,, are not good markers"..

Curious..

Gooser


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> A very experienced person told me one time,,, Its not about teaching a Blind,,Teaching a line,, its about teaching them to HANDLE.. A dog should be VERY comfortable being Handled,,and have a LOT of whistles in them.. JMHO
> 
> 
> http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfar...es/Starting Cold Blinds by Danny Farmer_1.pdf



That is very true ...most worry about getting the bird ( blind) and that is not the important part of training ...I can walk out and pick it just like I did to place it there in the first place...If the dog lines the blind ,time to pick a different blind...Steve S


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> You hear folks talk about their perceptions of an exceptional dog....
> 
> You hear the following statement quite often when they describe them:
> 
> ...


It is hard to get dogs that excel in both areas....There is usually a weakness in one or the other....I have heard it said many time that dogs that spent two years doing derby marks usually didn't do blinds very well and make AA dogs..I saw a 10 point derby dog that never was able to do blinds very well and was sold as a hunting dog....They have become too independent as self hunters and don't want to give up the reins to run blinds...As Danny has said his derby dogs usually only get 20-to 30 points ...they are working toward the AA stuff...Balance....Steve S


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

steve schreiner said:


> That is very true ...most worry about getting the bird ( blind) and that is not the important part of training ...I can walk out and pick it just like I did to place it there in the first place...If the dog lines the blind ,time to pick a different blind...Steve S


I try to understand this philosophy and have tried to balance training for confidence as well as for handling. I have a really hard time understanding stopping him when he's on line and casting him to another location (Casting around the pattern field or star drill)....Just my inexperience showing! 

Again the "balance" must be critical between training for confidence vs training to handle (without shutting down).


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

bshaf said:


> I try to understand this philosophy and have tried to balance training for confidence as well as for handling. I have a really hard time understanding stopping him when he's on line and casting him to another location (Casting around the pattern field or star drill)....Just my inexperience showing!
> 
> Again the "balance" must be critical between training for confidence vs training to handle (without shutting down).


You are casting the dog to another known location. If you do blinds drills & pattern blinds with diversions, you get ample opportunities to practice handling - getting the dog to change direction. Some dogs will be less influence by the gunner & old falls, so sending them to one known location and casting to another known location provides opportunity to cast. 

This is completely different than running cold blinds in a field setting.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Excellent thread, except Glen's comments.....
Stop being task masters....know your dog and as said many times, know their strengths and weakness.
That comes early on in knowing your dog.
My penny...


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

bshaf said:


> I try to understand this philosophy and have tried to balance training for confidence as well as for handling. I have a really hard time understanding stopping him when he's on line and casting him to another location (Casting around the pattern field or star drill)....Just my inexperience showing!
> 
> Again the "balance" must be critical between training for confidence vs training to handle (without shutting down).


The hard part of training is not getting the cart before the horse...Most people can't wait to move on or do bigger and better things..If you don't push the training the confidence will come .....reps reps and more reps.....It takes some time to build it in some dogs ..others are bold and just work for the sake of work...when trying to build confidence I don't use pressure unless it is absolutely necessary .... Are you training a Boykin ? The one I trained did good with show and tell type training...Not a lot of force...Keep it simple ..stop go come...best wishes..hang in there and you and the dog will do fine...Steve S


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

bshaf said:


> So I've searched and read through many older rtf threads but just haven't come across the answer.
> 
> My dog is through FTP, TT, swim-by, and we are early/mid transition. I run a lot of (land) 3 peat walk arounds and some cold blinds. Pretty solid, handles "well" out to about 100. We are working on that as well. Hunt test only dog.
> 
> ...




This is what you originally posted. I highlighted things I saw in the post that got my attention.. Go back a ways and read the link I provided..
Read it a few times... Notice in the text that the dogs, like yours are just coming out of the "Yard"..The only pressure the dogs receive is for "No Go's,,and failure to listen to the whistle...(SIT)

Also, keep in mind, a dog doesnt necessarily transfere the work he is doing on LAND to water... AND before you expect much from his water work,,his LAND work MUST be very solid... His introduction to his first water blinds, should be relatively easy,,and allyou arereally looking for is did the dog go when sent,did he getin the water,,and did he take casts reasonably well... Only correction given is for a sit refusal(Whistle).

I would not worry about the pop... but,,, I would start the blinds very close to the waters edge,,and progressively work back away from the shore.. If he does "Pop" farther out in the water,, Just stay calm,, put your hand up and say "Back" No correction...no force,,no"Nick"

Just Go when I send you,get in the water, "sit" when I blow the whistle,,and take my casts.. 

Go back and read the LINK I provided in an earlier post..

TEACH THE DOG TO HANDLE..... JMHO..

P.S. How much time do you think you spent on " FTP", "TT" and " swim by"??


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Mooser,
I've read the farmer, "teaching the dog to handle" article several times over, great article and the reason I started to understand and stopped fearing having to handle. 

Steve, 
I have really progressed in slowing down, thinking about each session and setting him up for success. Very early on I had a terrible habit of the "let's see if this works" mindset... I quickly learned that does not work. 

I have a couple offers to work with some more experienced handlers and get some hands on help. Really appreciate all the feedback!

I'll try to get a video up of what we are working through.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I still haven't figured out how Brett's dog is to learn not to pop in the field rather than in the yard/swim-by pond. Why are we encouraging him to teach a single skill (don't stop unless I ask you to) with 100 variables to cloud the dog's understanding. 

If the dog was thoroughly taught that popping is unacceptable in a clear black/white way with few other factors then I think it fair to say he lacks confidence or is not making an effort (could be either one in this case). 

Since the dog was never taught "not to pop" in a controlled setting, I'm not sure an accurate assessment (and plan of action) can really be implemented yet.

We've been all over the place with this. At some point the dog has to learn not to pop. That should happen in a controlled environment away from the field. Once that's done, if the problem still persists we have something to talk about. 

Otherwise - lots of conjecture.

I created a similar problem with my first dog on channel blinds by handling with too much pressure in the field even after a thorough swim-by including corrections for popping. What I did wrong was very clear because I knew the dog "knew better" but was popping anyway, indicating he was really concerned about making a mistake, as opposed to not understanding the expectations. We cleared that up with lots of success, including going out in the third at his first Qualifying event because he swam a channel like a champ and I was reluctant to undo a bunch of recent confidence work. 

Brett's dog is missing a very basic concept in training that may resolve all this once it's in place, based on what I read earlier in the thread.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> I still haven't figured out how Brett's dog is to learn not to pop in the field rather than in the yard/swim-by pond. Why are we encouraging him to teach a single skill (don't stop unless I ask you to) with 100 variables to cloud the dog's understanding.
> 
> If the dog was thoroughly taught that popping is unacceptable in a clear black/white way with few other factors then I think it fair to say he lacks confidence or is not making an effort (could be either one in this case).
> 
> ...


Assuming the 3rd was the typical water blind series, I gotta ask:

You're kidding, Right?


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mjh345 said:


> Assuming the 3rd was the typical water blind series, I gotta ask:
> 
> You're kidding, Right?


No, not at all - Swimming the channel took out the main factor of the blind.


----------



## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> Excellent thread, except Glen's comments.....
> Stop being task masters....know your dog and as said many times, know their strengths and weakness.
> That comes early on in knowing your dog.
> My penny...


At what age, and level of training you talking about ? Just wondering what you mean by knowing your dog early on. 3 months old 6 months or older ?


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> No, not at all - Swimming the channel took out the main factor of the blind.


Just a little too watery...needed better balance...Have seen this same stuff more than once...derby dogs will often swim to the end of the water before they will get out and then at times they will not get out at all...I watched a master dog swim by a mark 10ft off the bank and was headed to the end of the cove....I don't want my dogs seeking water, I want them going straight..land or water ...Steve S


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

James Seibel said:


> At what age, and level of training you talking about ? Just wondering what you mean by knowing your dog early on. 3 months old 6 months or older ?


This is not about training...this is about understanding your animal and vice versa.
That starts when your pup comes home with you...the repatore(sp) then is continuing and you start to see the animal as what they are and build on that.
My penny...


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> This is not about training...this is about understanding your animal and vice versa.
> That starts when your pup comes home with you...the repatore(sp) then is continuing and you start to see the animal as what they are and build on that.
> My penny...


With all due respect Benny, do you just follow the pup around and observe it in its natural environment until you can read it?

We take them away from their pack and so must become the pack leader for the pup. They don't train themselves do they?


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

captainjack said:


> With all due respect Benny, do you just follow the pup around and observe it in its natural environment until you can read it?
> 
> We take them away from their pack and so must become the pack leader for the pup. They don't train themselves do they?


No Glen they don't...they react on us and their breed in instinct in being part of the pack and observe us...


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> No Glen they don't...they react on us and their breed in instinct in being part of the pack and observe us...


I think you're way out there, but if someone really wanted to learn what you're talking about, I think you should go into deeper explanation about how to do what you do. Many people that come here for advice are 6-8 months into a dog before they know they need help. You can't just tell them to go get a new pup and start over. Think about it.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

captainjack said:


> I think you're way out there, but if someone really wanted to learn what you're talking about, I think you should go into deeper explanation about how to do what you do. Many people that come here for advice are 6-8 months into a dog before they know they need help. You can't just tell them to go get a new pup and start over. Think about it.


 Please understand that I am only giving advice on this site…those new or are viewing this site can weigh in if they don’t understand.

The cass is still wet cement and can be molded by that individual by their choice.
My penny…


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

steve schreiner said:


> Just a little too watery...needed better balance...Have seen this same stuff more than once...derby dogs will often swim to the end of the water before they will get out and then at times they will not get out at all...I watched a master dog swim by a mark 10ft off the bank and was headed to the end of the cove....I don't want my dogs seeking water, I want them going straight..land or water ...Steve S


In that case we had set him up deliberately to do it because he had been popping on channel blinds.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> In that case we had set him up deliberately to do it because he had been popping on channel blinds.


sounds like it worked...Steve S


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

steve schreiner said:


> sounds like it worked...Steve S


yep - just a moment in time to correct an issue


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Visited the swim by pond last night, 12 backs, only stopped on two, gave back casts both times, he did pop after the one and I gave verbal back nick, he went straight to the pile (orange). 

Back to swim by tonight, sent cold to the pile, hit the water hard, 2 freebies, send-whistle-left back, freebie, send-whistle-right back, freebie, send-whistle-left bank, send-whistle-right back, freebie (no pop), send-whistle-right back, freebie (video), freebie, fun bumper. really thought he'd pop, no such luck...


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Getting some additional hands-on help Thursday. Will update after.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Then in essence, you as a trainer, didn't do your job. I suspect you are more into the drill at dog's expense...
My penny...


----------



## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Then in essence, you as a trainer, didn't do your job. I suspect you are more into the drill at dog's expense...
> My penny...


Go pound sand, I gave you benefit of the doubt at first, now your just a nuisance, contributing very little. Does the dog in the video look like he's miserable? My last response to you... And I have no doubt you'll slip a last enlightened response in somewhere.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

bshaf said:


> Go pound sand, I gave you benefit of the doubt at first, now your just a nuisance, contributing very little. Does the dog in the video look like he's miserable? My last response to you... And I have no doubt you'll slip a last enlightened response in somewhere.


Aw...now we have an ego in effect...this is good...BTW...this will change if you decide to have a hobby now or decide to be serious later on.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> Aw...now we have an ego in effect...this is good...BTW...this will change if you decide to have a hobby now or decide to be serious later on.


Please enlighten us exactly what you have done that is serious because all we know is you have lots of pennies to contribute.....seriously what have you accomplished?


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

ErinsEdge said:


> Please enlighten us exactly what you have done that is serious because all we know is you have lots of pennies to contribute.....seriously what have you accomplished?



In that I know dogs....some familiar....


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

You know what my last name is...do a search....BTW you will not find it on entry express....go back in the 70s....OK?


----------



## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

So we have to go back 40 years to see your accomplishments...enough said. BS in the largest format in this forum. Didn't you say you were leaving here not to long ago, got in trouble for berating others as I remember. 

Do us all a favor dispense your garbage advice but leave it at that instead of belittling and tearing down others especially those brave enough to post videos. Where's your YouTube video? Easy to judge much harder to be judged... in case you forgot since its been 4 decades.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

jrrichar said:


> So we have to go back 40 years to see your accomplishments...enough said. BS in the largest format in this forum. Didn't you say you were leaving here not to long ago, got in trouble for berating others as I remember.
> 
> Do us all a favor dispense your garbage advice but leave it at that instead of belittling and tearing down others especially those brave enough to post videos. Where's your YouTube video? Easy to judge much harder to be judged... in case you forgot since its been 4 decades.


I am sorry you see this as it may...
My old man seen this as well...he was patient and continue to be until I reach atonement and ask for his advice....my attitude different then...


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think the dog in your video did a very nice job, considering where he is in training... 

JMHO.... just keep the training sessions positive, but still try to challenge the dog... IMHO,,after the dog has run a ton of blinds, and you do your job to make sure you do your best to accomplish success,, the "Pop" stuff will go away,,,,, BECAUSE,,,,of CONFIDENCE...

If your land work is solid,,and he takes casts reliably,, Dont be afraid to stretch the length of the water blind out a bit.. 

If you can catch the dog right before he pops.. just give a verbal "back" to keep him going...

He's a young dog tackling a big step in his training.... HANDLING in WATER

I think your dog looked wonderful..


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

jrrichar said:


> So we have to go back 40 years to see your accomplishments...enough said. BS in the largest format in this forum. Didn't you say you were leaving here not to long ago, got in trouble for berating others as I remember.
> 
> Do us all a favor dispense your garbage advice but leave it at that instead of belittling and tearing down others especially those brave enough to post videos. Where's your YouTube video? Easy to judge much harder to be judged... in case you forgot since its been 4 decades.


I'm with Janell. No wonder your advice is so generic and you don't understand Glen. I doubt there is much in any 1970's RFTN with your name either and I bet that is your only answer, not anything you have accomplished with dogs' names. You are answering questions of people trying to follow programs like you have a clue. 

Yes Janell, he was gone for awhile because he was harassing posters, especially as the hour got later.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

He looks good Brett!


----------

