# The letter regarding for profits making money from out sport?



## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

[B said:


> tshuntin][/B]
> _Are you serious? They sent out a letter like that? Who cares about addressing costs or anything else or if EE made $100 or $1 million. That is just flat out tacky and low class for a competitor to send out a letter discussing their competitions financials in any capacity, especially with details (positive or negative). I would love to see that letter... _
> 
> _One more reason my club and I will continue to use EE._






Shayne Mehringer said:


> What's tacky is that the letter, which stresses how it is wrong for a for-profit company to profit from our sport, was written and distributed by a person who makes a living building dog boxes for our sport. LOL
> 
> The National clubs are getting in the porta-potty business next regards,
> 
> SM


OK so if you weren't making catalogs then Kinko's is making profit off of it right?


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Can someone post more specific on where this letter came from, who it went to, and/or where a response can be made?

The people in this sport are not stupid. They know what the real reason behind this kind of stuff is.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

It was a very tactful letter written by the President of the Nat'l Am Club and sent to all Field Trial Secretaries that don't use thier service. 

I'll also say that though they have dropped all the service fees, I still see no reason to drop a service that we are happy with. Selling on a position of "cheaper" is not something that appeals to me. 

Again, I appriciate not only ee.net service because, I can be a big pain in the rump to do business with and I will never forget what they did for many after Katrina and Rita!


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Am not sure what letter you are talking about, but we got a letter asking us to go with RFTentry. It explained how we would be contributing our entry money to back into the sport since the national clubs own the entry system. So instead of EE making money, the money would be put back into the sport supposedly. 

Anyhow, we like EE and are sticking with them.

Mary O.........
www.alaskaworkingretriever.com


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

If EE were to go out of business tomorrow, I'd still have to think long and hard about doing business with RFTentry. They might be a good alternative now, but if they were the only entry service how would RFTentry act in the future based on what we know about their business ethics now? Obama must be one of their consultants since they certainly don't want anyone to make any profit from a job well done.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> I'll also say that though they have dropped all the service fees, I still see no reason to drop a service that we are happy with. Selling on a position of "cheaper" is not something that appeals to me.


They only dropped the online entry service fees. They charge the club for catalogs, postcards, etc...

Their catalogs are more expensive than ours and they do not offer discount ribbons or discounted poppers/equipment. So using RFTentry is *MORE EXPENSIVE* to the club than using EE.

They also charge $5 per entry to mail in an entry if the entry form is mailed by someone other than the actual owner of the dog. (which is completely contrary to the AKC rulebook)

The letter explains how they put money back into the sport by donating to canine health foundation and the bird dog hall of fame... we, on the other hand, choose to give our club customers a free case of poppers, established our giveback fund, provide discounted ribbons and equipment, and give every user Dogs Afield Dollars as our way of putting money back into the sport. 

While they are publishing the VERY INCORRECT math on how much money EE makes, I wish they would also publish the math on how much they have contributed to the sport vs how much they have contributed to a for-profit, non-dog related, software vendor to build their first system, and a completely different company to build their second system. The only people making any real money in the entry business is the various software companies they keep hiring.

I suppose there is a fundamental difference of opinion between the two companies as to what is considered putting money back into the sport. We will continue to do so by contributing directly to the clubs.

The letter also has no mention of hunt tests or their significance to our sport.

Again, i think it is ironic that the author of the letter owns a for-profit company and makes money off our sport.... and his letter speaks directly against that very thing.

I'm off my soapbox regards,

SM


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## Josiah Greene (Jun 7, 2008)

you can make money in this sport?? news to me.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

DEDEYE said:


> Am not sure what letter you are talking about, but we got a letter asking us to go with RFTentry. It explained how we would be contributing our entry money to back into the sport since the national clubs own the entry system. So instead of EE making money, the money would be put back into the sport supposedly.
> 
> Anyhow, we like EE and are sticking with them.
> 
> ...


Great logic. I think we should all get behind Obama and the Spendocrats for the same reason. We should also give more since "they" will give it back to all "Americans". Totally effiecient! Do you believe this?


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

I would also like to add that we truly appreciate the continued support we have received from the retriever community since 2003. It could not have happened without RTF, many friends and clubs who believed in the concept, and a ton of great feedback that we have incorporated over the years to continually improve our product and services. I don't care what any National officer says about rftentry being your entry service, EE is _*YOUR *_entry service and we will continue to bust our butts to prove it everyday.

We also welcome back with open arms the various clubs that tried RFTentry and have returned to EE for their entry service and catalog needs. Its good to have you back... 

Happy Easter!

SM


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Funny thing, the RFTN entry folks don't list any hunt tests, yet one of the things they did 20 or so years back to stay afloat was to start showing hunt test results in the monthly publication.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Funny thing, the RFTN entry folks don't list any hunt tests, yet one of the things they did 20 or so years back to stay afloat was to start showing hunt test results in the monthly publication.



And yet the Master National HT board has their lips firmly attached to the rectum of the RFTN. Go read the latest newsletter.....

/Paul


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Can anyone share with me a copy of this letter. Interesting to see how desperate they have become. I've relayed the whole story to friends I have outside of the sport and they are appalled at RFTentry's tactics just from a simple business standpoint.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Brad B said:


> Can anyone share with me a copy of this letter. .


PM me your mailing address or FAX number and I'll make a copy for you


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Running a for-profit company? Why, that's just un-American!!!

Oh...

Wait...

Geographically Confused Regards;

Lisa


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## FetchExpress (May 31, 2006)

Shayne

Whose Wheatie's did you whizz in????

I remember the days before EE or any other service. I remember the phone calls at 2 AM or 5 AM from someone wanting to enter the trail who had no idea what time time we were on or plain didn't care. I remember the days of chasing down bad checks. I remember all the complaining about the draw.

I am grateful for EE as are many others and to be honest I am not sure I would even enter a trial hosted by the another. I feel EE is worthy of my respect. EE has given back to this sport as much as it has received. Maybe not in $$$ but the relief it took off the shoulders of event secretaries has saved a lot of burn out! In my book that is worth ALOT.

Just my 2 cents
KC OWENS


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)




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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Funny thing, the RFTN entry folks don't list any hunt tests, yet one of the things they did 20 or so years back to stay afloat was to start showing hunt test results in the monthly publication.


Rumor has it that's when Aycock stopped his subscription.

And those lips Paul is talking about are wrapped firmly anyways.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Rumor has it that's when Aycock stopped his subscription.
> 
> And those lips Paul is talking about are wrapped firmly anyways.


Note to self : never ask Guthrie to mediate or negotiate a hostage situation


regards pot stirrer analyst


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Rumor has it that's when Aycock stopped his subscription.


Actually I cancelled my subscription when RFTN put the Master National Finalists on the cover of RFTN (I still have the copy somewhere). I was an officer of NRC and said representative at the RFTN BOD meeting in protest of said policy (putting Hunt Test results in the *Retriever Field Trial News*). 

The inclusion of Hunt Test results was the idea of and was introduced by Bob Wolfe then Editor-in-Chief of RFTN. The stated purpose for including Hunt Test results in RFTN was to "increase circulation" of *The Retriever Field Trial News *even though there existed a separate Hunt Test publication.

I suggested changing the name of said publication to *The Retriever Field Trial And Hunt Test News. *The compromise at that meeting was to include Hunt Test results in the back of the magazine and that no Hunt Test person or dog was to appear on the cover of *The Retriever Field Trial News.* 

*FIELD TRIAL HISTORY 101 REGARDS*


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

EdA said:


> even though there existed a separate Hunt Test publication.


I never understood why that HT publication folded.

Not enough subscribers? With as popular as HT are? Sounds more like failing to target one's market, to me.

Lisa


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

EdA said:


> Actually I cancelled my subscription when RFTN put the Master National Finalists on the cover of RFTN (I still have the copy somewhere). I was an officer of NRC and said representative at the RFTN BOD meeting in protest of said policy (putting Hunt Test results in the *Retriever Field Trial News*).
> 
> The inclusion of Hunt Test results was the idea of and was introduced by Bob Wolfe then Editor-in-Chief of RFTN. The stated purpose for including Hunt Test results in RFTN was to "increase circulation" of *The Retriever Field Trial News *even though there existed a separate Hunt Test publication.
> 
> ...


And that is why I regard Doc EdA as Moses (on this weekend of Holy celebration)...whatever he says I never question because its like the message coming down from the Almighty himself.
I have often wondered if later in life Doc would do the Charlton Heston parting of the Red River or Lake Dallas..or maybe Honcho III would be written on stone tablets for all of us to read...

Happy Easter to all,on the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus


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## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> I never understood why that HT publication folded.
> 
> Not enough subscribers? With as popular as HT are? Sounds more like failing to target one's market, to me.
> 
> Lisa


Shayne, maybe EE could pick this up again, I'm sure the current HT'ers would love and support it, just don't plan to make a profit, or put FT'ers on the cover!!!!!!!!!


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Here is the letter.

Letter from NARC

SM


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

All of this makes me proud to be a hunt tester and glad not to be involved with the national FT clubs in any way. We get enough of this kind of shi'ite in our government. I don't need it in my hobbies.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Here is the letter.
> 
> Letter from NARC
> 
> SM


That letter is really sad. 

/Paul


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

I would like to see President Ainley's financial analysis for the members of PRTA. This group also derives profit. 

Tim


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

Hookset said:


> We get enough of this kind of shi'ite in our government. I don't need it in my hobbies.


Isn't the AKC a branch of our government????? I thought Cheny was going to head it up soon.  Bud


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## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> That letter is really sad.
> 
> /Paul


I agree, I didn't know what to say about it, but SAD pretty much covers it.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

When I'm sending a casual letter, I'll use my USPS.

If I need service and quality, FedEx is worth the little extra.

ml


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> That letter is really sad.
> 
> /Paul


Sad ? What do you mean by that, /Paul.

Where in particular do you find his letter deficient or do you not find it so, but troubling in some other way ?

I'm no fan of the National Clubs I find them to be to autonomous for my taste, but I fail to have a problem with his letter... portraying their service in it's most favorable light.

john


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

I always thought making a profit was as American as a Chesapeake Bay Retriever. What did RFTN do with the profits they made if any before they got into the computer entry business?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> Actually I cancelled my subscription when RFTN put the Master National Finalists on the cover of RFTN (I still have the copy somewhere). I was an officer of NRC and said representative at the RFTN BOD meeting in protest of said policy (putting Hunt Test results in the *Retriever Field Trial News*).
> 
> The inclusion of Hunt Test results was the idea of and was introduced by Bob Wolfe then Editor-in-Chief of RFTN. The stated purpose for including Hunt Test results in RFTN was to "increase circulation" of *The Retriever Field Trial News *even though there existed a separate Hunt Test publication.
> 
> ...


Can you give me the Cliff Note version of this?

Did you, or did you not support the HT community?


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

EdA said:


> PM me your mailing address or FAX number and I'll make a copy for you


Thanks for the offer doc, but by the time I got home and checked the thread again, Shayne had posted his link.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Sad ? What do you mean by that, /Paul.
> 
> Where in particular do you find his letter deficient or do you not find it so, but troubling in some other way ?
> 
> ...


I agree.

The National Clubs don't get a yea or nay from me, but I have no problem with the "The" Clubs trying to keep the strength and revenue within their control.

Those that don't like it...........

It's easy, don't run or participate in events that support the clubs.

But those of you won't, because you want the points in order to qualify.

So in the end, this is all just a bunch of internet BS that nobody is really willing to fight for. Just blah, blah, blah, sad this sad that and the game goes on as it has for years.

Somebody with some Patricia Pellets step up to the plate and do something about it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Sad ? What do you mean by that, /Paul.
> 
> Where in particular do you find his letter deficient or do you not find it so, but troubling in some other way ?
> 
> ...


He says the truth is 3 fold. Lets examine it.

1. The entry service is owned by the member clubs. Really. When did the member clubs every request the service? Why is a majority of the member clubs using EE? Where is the full disclosure of the cost breakdown involving building and then rebuilding the entry service? 

2. The service is easy and the processing is free. Really. Lets face it. The entry system is clunky at best. By today’s software standards its archaic. Couple that with the fact that it couldn’t even remember the user accounts from the failed version 1 and saying its easy is a joke. The processing fee’s are free. Big deal. After I pay a $70 dollar entry fee, gas to the event, hotel costs, meals not to mention all the time and money training a dog to even play the game, the $4 bucks they save me really doesn’t mean much now does it. Hardly worthy of mentioning actually.

3. Putting revenue back into the sport. Now this one really gets interesting. The theory they are trying to promote is that they are doing all this for the sport, and nobody else is. The interesting line is the one that says “once we reach break even volume.” In other words, we paid so much for this system that if nobody uses it, then we can’t put anything back into the sport. I wonder how much volume that would be? Seems to me if they hadn’t wasted all this money on an entry system nobody asked for and nobody wants to use, they could have put that money into really helping clubs continue to play this game. Helping clubs get grounds, putting funding towards legislation that helps our sport, etc. Instead they wasted all that money and now their struggling to keep it afloat. 

They say they did this to make the sport more affordable. Poppycock. As an average guy, I haven’t seen one thing that has reduced the cost to me as a participant due to the entry system. They then attack the “for profit” business EntryExpress. I find that pretty hypocritical of the national president who is doing the exact same thing as EntryExpress. http://ainleykennels.com/. Perhaps the national clubs should start building dog boxes, e-collars, dog food, training gear and all the other things that go alone with the sport. 
The other thing is the RFTN has limited themselves to the FT crowd. What about all the other retriever sports out there? The fact is retriever FT’s are a very small crowd, and if they expect to survive in this political environment they need the average hunting guy and HT crowd. Without us there wouldn’t be enough support to keep FT’s alive for long. That’s why they’re kissing the donkey end of the MN BOD. 

Lets face it John. It was a horrible business decision. This letter is a sad attempt to try and steal users away from EntryExpress because they can’t get them through a better entry service and better customer service. This letter reeks of desperation. Their frankly too proud to admit it was a bad business decision resulting in lord only knows how much wasted National retriever funds. The real question is, how much longer will they continue to waste the local clubs money in their failed endeavor.

/Paul


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Does anyone else feel like RFTN's personal seems rude or is that just me?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> He says the truth is 3 fold. Lets examine it.
> 
> 1. The entry service is owned by the member clubs. Really. When did the member clubs every request the service? Why is a majority of the member clubs using EE? Where is the full disclosure of the cost breakdown involving building and then rebuilding the entry service?
> 
> ...


You have made a few good points but................
You forgot the "Biggie" they don't take American Express;-)

john


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Here is the letter.
> 
> Letter from NARC
> 
> SM


That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read…if that letter would have gone out in any other industry the company that sent it would be suspected of having financial difficulties and not managing their business. Resorting to those tactics show a considerable amount of desperation.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Deerskin dog trailers and boxes are some of the finest products on the market. I have owned a few other boxes and next to my Deerskin they were junk. 


www.deerskindogtrailers.com


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Anyone can build a dog box. but......
When I'm in the market for a used chassis mount a Burns box is the one I will be looking for, Hands down the best there is.

john


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## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Deerskin dog trailers and boxes are some of the finest products on the market. I have owned a few other boxes and next to my Deerskin they were junk.
> 
> 
> www.deerskindogtrailers.com


I kinda like that box on the truck that Shayne has for sale, nice box!!!!!!!!


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

I was told by a National club officer late last fall that if this incarnation of their entry service didn't make a profit, he'd be the first one in line to start the move to pull the plug on it.

Looking at the list of events they have scheduled this year, seems like the end may be inevitable. I agree with /Paul: that letter had a tone of desperation to it....

kg


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

K G said:


> I was told by a National club officer late last fall that if this incarnation of their entry service didn't make a profit, he'd be the first one in line to start the move to pull the plug on it.
> 
> Looking at the list of events they have scheduled this year, seems like the end may be inevitable. I agree with /Paul: that letter had a tone of desperation to it....
> 
> kg


I understand the national clubs are “not for profit” but don’t they have a fiduciary duty to the membership and who audits them to make sure funds are be handled properly?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Blah, Blah, Blah.....

Just wanted to say some things along the same lines as everyone else.

Actions speak louder than words regards,


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Blah, Blah, Blah.....
> 
> Just wanted to say some things along the same lines as everyone else.
> 
> Actions speak louder than words regards,


Thats right. And you haven't done a thing other than drop out of the sport after 1 dog. 

/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Thats right. And you haven't done a thing other than drop out of the sport after 1 dog.
> 
> /Paul


Yep, just flat out "quit".

Damn shame ain't it?


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Thats right. And you haven't done a thing other than drop out of the sport after 1 dog.
> 
> /Paul



Dude...stop quoting him...I have him on ignore...if you dont quote him he does not exist for me anymore


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am disappointed with how often subjects which could and should be discussed instead degenerate into name calling, ... or worse.

I have friends on both sides of this debate. Ron Ainley, Shayne Mehringer, and Mark Rosenblum are all friends of mine. 

I helped Shayne develop his product and the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club - of which I am a member was the first club in the country to use Entry Express. The Rocky Mountain Retriever Club has been very pleased with the quality of the product and service that we have received from Entry Express.

When the new entry service first started, Ron Ainley called me and asked if the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club to use it, I told him: "Ron, I have stood by you, because Ainley makes a high quality dog box at a good price and because you provide great service. Until your product is as good or better as Entry Express, and at a better price, we are staying with Entry Express." 

At the 2007 National Amateur in Stowe, Vermont, I asked Mark for an explanation of how much money was invested in the new entry service and what the return on investment was. Mark said that he was not authorized to release that information. I was later told by an officer of the National Club that the information would soon be forthcoming. To date, I have not seen it.

That being said, I think that new edition of Retriever Entry is huge improvement over the initial product. I am surprised that people are so reluctant to acknowledge how much better and easier to use than the old product. I am even more surprised at how many people denigrate it. Nevertheless, I still think that EE is a better product.

However, I do not think that the fact that no service is imposed by the new product is insignificant. For 150 dog field trial - at $3 per entry - with the new entry service $450 that goes back to the contestants. That is no small matter, when you consider the number of field trials that are held across the country every year.

Similarly, if the profits from catalogs were invested into activities or items for the benefit of the sport, I think that would be a worthwhile endeavor.

I have no quarrel with Shayne making money. However, if that money went back to the contestants and to the sport, I think that would be a very good thing.

So, IF
-The new product was as good as EE
-The service at the new product was as good as EE
-The proceeds from the new product used for the benefit of the sport

And - perhaps the biggest IF -

IF the people who pay entry fees for their dogs actually had some say in how those proceeds were used to the "benefit" of the sport

Then maybe I would push for adoption of the new product.

For now, I am still sitting on the fence ... and given the nature and number of my concerns, I may be sitting there for a while.

But, I think it is a mistake for people to cavalierly dismiss the efforts of the Retriever News to make a better product.

And I think it is wrong for people to attack Ron and Mark personally. Anyone who knows either of them personally knows that they are good and decent men who want to do what is best for the sport. I may disagree - and I have disagreed - with some of their decisions, but I have never questioned their commitment to the sport.

I wish that we could discuss this topic - so many others - without the invective that so often spews forth.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I am disappointed with how often subjects which could and should be discussed instead degenerate into name calling, ... or worse.
> 
> I have friends on both sides of this debate. Ron Ainley, Shayne Mehringer, and Mark Rosenblum are all friends of mine.
> 
> ...


Well said.

What I have never understood though...

If the National Clubs really want to force their hand on this issue...

Why not mandate all qualifications and points earned towards qualifying be gained from trials using their entry service?

Simply saying, if you want to play in our "championship" you must play in our league.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> However, I do not think that the fact that no service is imposed by the new product is insignificant. For 150 dog field trial - at $3 per entry - with the new entry service $450 that goes back to the contestants. That is no small matter, when you consider the number of field trials that are held across the country every year.


I agree. That is very significant. We pay that same $450 to the credit card processing company. Don't forget, the $3 fee exists to cover the CC processing fees. The processing fee even exceeds $3 on some of the higher entry fees.

We cannot afford to lose $450 in revenue per event. Given the fact that their current business plan includes that kind of loss in revenue per event, and per the letter which references a "break even" point in the future (which implies they are not intending to lose money), I am curious as to how that could possibly be a smart way of doing business. Maybe i'm just not savvy enough to understand how you can lose $450 in revenue PER EVENT and stay in business very long.

But I do agree with you, it is very significant.

SM


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> I agree. That is very significant. We pay that same $450 to the credit card processing company. Don't forget, the $3 fee exists to cover the CC processing fees. The processing fee even exceeds $3 on some of the higher entry fees.
> 
> We cannot afford to lose $450 in revenue per event. Given the fact that their current business plan includes that kind of loss in revenue per event, and per the letter which references a "break even" point in the future (which implies they are not intending to lose money), I am curious as to how that could possibly be a smart way of doing business. Maybe i'm just not savvy enough to understand how you can lose $450 in revenue PER EVENT and stay in business very long.
> 
> ...


Shayne your probably spot on with this....

But you posting this in a public forum is the same tactic you have a problem with. What is the difference in what you just wrote and what Mr. Ainley wrote?

Know your business, do your business, promote your business.

Forget the other one and throw the pom pom's away.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

K G said:


> Looking at the list of events they have scheduled this year, seems like the end may be inevitable. I agree with /Paul: that letter had a tone of desperation to it....


I agree. Maybe the national clubs need money? Then again, why would they be giving profits away if they are hurting.:-?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> Then again, why would they be giving profits away if they are hurting.:-?


Good question.

All I can come up with is if they are losing money, they must really believe what they are doing is good for the clubs, themselves, or the sport.

I just can't make myself believe they are evil or ignorant enough to do this for the simple fact of disrupting Shayne or his business.

I'm not saying any of it is justified or not, but there must be a legit reason they are so passionate about it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I am disappointed with how often subjects which could and should be discussed instead degenerate into name calling, ... or worse.
> 
> I have friends on both sides of this debate. Ron Ainley, Shayne Mehringer, and Mark Rosenblum are all friends of mine.
> 
> ...


 Ted, nobody has called into question the dedication of these men to the sport. At the same time, Ron signed his name to the letter. Mark has publically defended it. They have clearly made a stand and I see no issue with debating the validity of this endeavor with them. What is called into question is the nationals decision to go down this road. While the product may be better than version 1, it still lacks quite a bit in functionality, usability and is still outdated in today’s web development environment. “It sucks less than before” is a lousy marketing plan. As for the service fee, I already stated what I think of that. Even if I had 10 dogs entered, that’s only 30 dollars, not even half of one entry. On a personal level it peanuts. I pay more than that for a latte’s. Sure it’s significant to the entry service, but frankly I have no vested interest in the success of the entry service. As a consumer it’s all about the functionality, customer service and ethical business practices of the company I choose to deal with. So far all I’ve seen is these types of tactics out of RFTEntry management because at the end of the day, their product is inferior and they can’t gain market share. I do completely agree with your “if’s” but so far the product and RFTEntry has not stepped to the plate to offer that. Instead they use these “strong arm” tactics which makes me feel that its just sad. These people are much better than this.

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Good question.
> 
> All I can come up with is if they are losing money, they must really believe what they are doing is good for the clubs, themselves, or the sport.
> 
> ...


Being a nice guy or sincere does not make you a good business man. Nobody called them evil, but they're proving that they don't understand the market they decided to enter.

/paul


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Being a nice guy or sincere does not make you a good business man. Nobody called them evil, but they're proving that they don't understand the market they decided to enter.
> 
> /paul


Not only that Paul, but the WAY they are going about is wrong.

They want to drive EE out of business but yet they are the same "people" that are just flat COPYING stuff from the EE website. Remember the "privacy" thing that was posted earlier where the "copier" had forgotten to edit out EE from the copied info?

That is just flat sad........

I'm all for competition but how they are going about it is wrong.....

WRL


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Being a nice guy or sincere does not make you a good business man. Nobody called them evil, but they're proving that they don't understand the market they decided to enter.
> 
> /paul


So why does it concern you so much. Why is there so much talk about it?

According to you and others, it will fail in no time anyway.

Blah, Blah, Blah...............it goes on and on and on.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> So why does it concern you so much. Why is there so much talk about it?
> 
> .........................
> 
> Blah, Blah, Blah...............it goes on and on and on.


Geez Gut, for a guy that doesn't use either either entry service why all the Blah, Blah, Blah, from you on the thread?


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Geez Gut, for a guy that doesn't use either either entry service why all the Blah, Blah, Blah, from you on the thread?


Um, if I didn't use either, will Shayne refund my money?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> So why does it concern you so much. Why is there so much talk about it?
> 
> According to you and others, it will fail in no time anyway.
> 
> Blah, Blah, Blah...............it goes on and on and on.


Hey, I just answered John. Just my opinion. Probably not worth much, but I think I'm not alone in my thinking. 

/Paul


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

I don't currently run field trials, but the grounds we run our hunt test on belong to someone who stated we must use RTFN for our entry service or we couldn't use the grounds. Well, they are his grounds so after years of using and loving EE, we tried to go with RTFN this year. Big surprise - no HT tab, no way to list HT or to find HT to enter. With our HT less than 2 months away, we were in a bind. Fortunately the land owner saw the problem and relented, but it put a lot of work and pressure on the HT secretary to try and set up with RTFN, then finding out it wasn't working, then having to do it all over again with EE. 
On a personal level, I had a GREAT deal of difficulty trying to get my dog's information on RFTN. It kept bumping me out when I tried to enter stud dog info. Finally gave up. Hopefully it will be working if we have to use it again for another test. Not a computer person, don't know one program from another, just know what is easy for me to use and what is not.
Dawn


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## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

Rft Entry has improved, no doubt about that but......you see this in business all the time: A company comes to market with a product that tries to compete with an established company and product that are outstanding. They realize that they can't compete on their own merits so the resort to price cutting. People start buying the cheaper product for a while then realize that the small premium they had to pay for the superior product was well worth it.

Why do you think everything we buy today is made in China?

I agree with Ted's analysis in general but if you drill down into the numbers that $3/dog savings isn't that impressive nor do I think it will benefit the sport.

If you own 3 dogs that run 25 events per year and you save $3.00 per event that turns into $225 a year.....if that is the difference to you between running trials or not then you are in the wrong game. Plus those savings are a lot like the extra $8 per week some folks are getting in their paycheck thanks to Obama.....you really think that is stimulating the economy like they said it would Most folks have fewer than 3 dogs so their "savings" would be considerably less.

We have multiple suppliers of dog boxes, etc in this game.....why can't we have multiple entry services?


----------



## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Well said.
> 
> What I have never understood though...
> 
> ...


Because they have to answer to a higher power, the AKC. The National Club and The National Amateur club can not dictate which entry service must be used.

Competition in business is a good thing. As consumers, we all benefit from competition. A concept the Obomo Administration doesn't understand.

I also doubt we would have an on-line entry service had not EE.net come along. 

Reminds me of the Coca Cola/Pepsi marketing battles. Coca Cola outsells Pepsi 4 to 1. Coke was first and they also have the better product according to consumers.

1970's MBA 101: Hertz vs Avis...Hertz was the first national rental car company. So, what did Avis do? They came out with a campaign of, "We Try Harder". Avis' share of market grew ten fold after that campaign. Hertz is still #1 and Avis still makes a profit.

P S As long as I am the FTS for our club, we will continue to use EE.net!


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Looks like more socialism to me. EE found a niche in the entry process and applied year 2000 technology to the entry process. I myself appreciate the ease of use vs. how the process worked in the past with snail mail. EE was the innovator and brought on a tool that took off, they should make money this is capitalism at work. Find an area in the market not served, target it with a superior and cost effective product and you benefit. EE took the risk of it not taking off and look, its the best. If the RTF.entry now wants to play, they must compete and they should not mandate a certain products use. They should compete for the service anyway they can, its up to them to be creative and win over the entry process.

Its good to have two or more players now, the end user will benefit in the long-run.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Shayne your probably spot on with this....
> 
> *But you posting this in a public forum is the same tactic you have a problem with*. What is the difference in what you just wrote and what Mr. Ainley wrote?
> 
> ...


It is worse. 

The Ainley letter was a private mailing, the kind of solicitation received almost daily in the mail and on line, addressed to a select _target_ group, the demographics of which would do the writers cause some good.
Also, It would have remained private had not someone else chose to make it public.

In this case the relatively loose demographics of this forum gives me cause for concern as to the motives for his posting here . Perhaps his rebuttal should have also been in letter form, and sent only to those who received the original letter.

BTW To be fair...While not yet on a par with their competition, the second edition of their service is a quite functional, usable product, and their customer service person also named Mark, is a quick study, who aims to please. Now all I have to do is convince them to expand from just using Visa and Master Card ......hint, hint, hint If that happens it is my intention to use both.

john


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

I find this thread very interesting -  

An individual who makes a portion of their living from selling large ticket items to the sport, coincidentally President of the National Amateur Retriever Club, solicits for the use of services of a sport connected non profit organization which oversees national championship events. Does anyone besides myself find that ironic? 

But while we're on the subject, shilling for the non profit would explain many of the other actions seen in this sport & the view by the higher ups of those actions.

It is OK to own a kennel, train dogs, co own those dogs, handle those dogs, sell those dogs & have no other visible means of support - & as long as you brand yourself an Amateur & are successful those higher ups will look the other way & buy your dogs & use your services. 

It is OK to own a kennel, advertise your wares, breed dogs, co own dogs, campaign dogs, have no other visible means of support & as long as you brand yourself an Amateur you will receive the full benefits that go with that status.

I believe it good for the sport that there is competition in entry services. EE has responded with consumer friendly initiatives that probably would not have existed had RFTentry not come on the scene. While not as lucrative as it would have been for a monopoly, the consumer does not care, they just want good service with the biggest bang for the buck.

Now if someone could figure out how to deal with the Shamateurs & the unqualified judges, things would be .


----------



## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

[


> QUOTE=Ken Guthrie;428279]Rumor has it that's when Aycock stopped his subscription.





Seems to me not enough of us have canceled. I canceled when they decided to change over to the new format. Just another reason to start up a competition news paper with RTN.


----------



## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> I find this thread very interesting -
> 
> An individual who makes a portion of their living from selling large ticket items to the sport, coincidentally President of the National Amateur Retriever Club, solicits for the use of services of a sport connected non profit organization which oversees national championship events. Does anyone besides myself find that ironic?



well..."ironic" isn't the word that comes to mind...but yes is does seem it would draw some interest but in a sport that allows clients judge THEIR pros, I am not surprised at all.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> It is worse.
> 
> The Ainley letter was a private mailing, the kind of solicitation received almost daily in the mail and on line, addressed to a select _target_ group, the demographics of which would do the writers cause some good.
> Also, It would have remained private had not someone else chose to make it public.
> ...



Hey hold on. They sent a private letter to member clubs? What happened to the clubs owning the entry service? Each and ever member of a club is part owner, according to them. These underground mafia techniques are unnacceptable and frankly I'm surprised that a guy such as yourself who has been trying to get these same very clubs to share information would take this stance. You've fallen and struck you head on this one. 

/Paul


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

It would be nice if someone bothered to take the time to get the facts straight. The letter is posted on another thread in its entirety.

The letter was addressed to FT secretaries. 

Therefore, it was neither private nor secretive.

If we are going to have a debate, discussion, whatever, it would be nice if it were factually based.


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> It would be nice if someone bothered to take the time to get the facts straight. The letter is posted on another thread in its entirety.
> 
> The letter was addressed to FT secretaries.
> 
> ...


Why ruin a good story with facts? 

(I must be getting old, I'm starting to agree with Shih more and more)


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Ted Shih said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice if someone bothered to take the time to get the facts straight. The letter is posted on another thread in its entirety.
> ...


Ken,
Perhaps there is was a better word to be used than_ private _but...........
The letter being addressed to FTS, means that trial giving Clubs are for who it was intended and not fieldtrilers at large. That being the case, makes it a "private" correspondence, in the sense the message was aimed at that particular group --- And, as I said previously, I see nothing wrong with taking that tact .


And Paul/,There is nothing nefarious about the letter being addressed to a target audience of customers and and those they would like to have as such.

john


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Can I see a show of hands from the event secretaries who intend to switch to RFTEntry because of "The Letter?"

I'm not one that'll switch regards,

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Ken,
> Perhaps there is was a better word to be used than_ private _but...........
> The letter being addressed to FTS, means that trial giving Clubs are for who it was intended and not fieldtrilers at large. That being the case, makes it a "private" correspondence, in the sense the message was aimed at that particular group --- And, as I said previously, I see nothing wrong with taking that tact .
> 
> ...


Well John, the FT secretaries are in their position to support the club. FT secretaries are there to send/receive correspondence pertaining to the club and/or the event. Any decisions made need to be approved by the board, which in turn are there to represent the general vote of the club members. The letter was sent to the secretaries but that does not make it a private letter or even a letter focused at a target audience. This letter intended to sway clubs to use their service, which in and of itself is not wrong. I disagree or question their intended 3 truths and I take objection to the premise that using their service over any other service is the only way to support the support. I also continue to disagree with the manner in which they conduct business pertaining to EE. Bullying people, strong arming clubs via landowners or guilting people into using your service just tells me that you recognize your service is not as a good and your're business plan is too weak to over come it. 

/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

And the road goes on forever and the party never ends.......................


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Oh, it'll be over soon enough if RFTE continues to bleed *red ink*....unless the National clubs want to risk losing their financial viability....

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> And the road goes on forever and the party never ends.......................


Well, you could do something about it. Get involved, make a difference don't just sit on the sidelines. Those of you who believe your're in the know, get off your duff and use your "inside" knowledge....

/Paul


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well, you could do something about it. Get involved, make a difference don't just sit on the sidelines. Those of you who believe your're in the know, get off your duff and use your "inside" knowledge....
> 
> /Paul


Do something about what?

I don't have a beef with RFTNentry or EE.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

And the road goes on forever and the party never ends.......................


/Paul


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> And the road goes on forever and the party never ends.......................
> 
> 
> /Paul


Great song. If you don't have it on your ipod you got to get it.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Do something about what?
> 
> I don't have a beef with RFTNentry or EE.


I have issues with both...

...but not one any more than the other regards


john


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Using numbers from this thread , at $3 per entry fee charged by the CC companies ,and using 150 dogs per event ,and 240 FTs per year , that comes to $ 108,000 annually in the loss column .Any business would look for other ways to offset that loss .
It will be a while before they are out of the red .


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Are they doing enough events to EVER be out of the *red*?

I hope someone on the inside is asking that question.....

kg


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

K G said:


> Are they doing enough events to EVER be out of the *red*?
> 
> I hope someone on the inside is asking that question.....
> 
> kg


KG,

What if getting in the *black* was the only means of survival of the clubs?

Then what?


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I hope they can make it out of the red.

For me, one of the top draws of the electronic entry is the 11:59 closing...
If that fee increse from $3 to 4 to 4.50 and the bogus attempt at justifacation of it by telling us it was for the good of the FT giving clubs was any example of how it could be if EE were the only game in town. I hope we never go back to the point of having one entry service.

Don't pee down my boot.... regards

john


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> KG,
> 
> What if getting in the *black* was the only means of survival of the clubs?
> 
> Then what?


Staying in the black usually IS the only means of survival of a "non profit" organization....same thing for a for-profit, unless it exists as a "write off" for a bigger company.

I'm having a hard time feeling any sympathy whatsoever for either National club with regard to RFTE. The clubs that make up the National organizations didn't get a vote on this move....weren't asked for feedback or even if they would consider adopting the new service until AFTER it was "online"....to me, from a marketing standpoint, it's right up there with Coca Cola's decision back in the 80's to replace what we now call Coke Classic with New Coke (same thing only different). 

I, and a LOT of other people, took particular offense at the strong-arm methods certain National officers used to try to get clubs to use the service. That the "new" product couldn't develop it's own user loyalty didn't seem to matter much to them; we should just change to their product because THEY said to. I'm not even gonna bring up the BS that was spread about their competitor in an attempt to get users to change their loyalties....

RFTN has a another problem that will be a challenge to overcome as well: the demise of the print medium. Magazines and newspapers are going under left and right because of the ubiquity of the Internet. They have a resource (www.working-retriever.com) that they have largely abandoned and left to hackers. There is no reason whatsover that they couldn't put the montly editions of the magazine online and let folks print them out for themselves if they wanted to. Imagine the costs they would eliminate! Since online entries are 99% of all entries for HTs and FTs, they don't have to look for customers: they're already on the Internet! There could be different tiers of "subscriptions" for online customers, the submission of event results and advertising would be all but seamless, and the production cost would be a fraction of what it is now....all that savings might even help pay for the THOUSANDS of dollars they've spent on a product that will NEVER support itself.

But hey...they want to keep swimming against the tide, that's fine with me. All I do is write 'em a couple of checks every year and send 'em results....I, and a bunch of folks LIKE me, don't matter one whit when it comes to making decisions that affect the National clubs and their operation.

Insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results regards, 

kg


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I hope they can make it out of the red.
> 
> For me, one of the top draws of the electronic entry is the 11:59 closing...
> If that fee increse from $3 to 4 to 4.50 and the bogus attempt at justifacation of it by telling us it was for the good of the FT giving clubs was any example of how it could be if EE were the only game in town. I hope we never go back to the point of having one entry service.
> ...


John didn't you miss getting entered in a FT because of the system? I've never had that happen at EE and the customer service is much better.

/Paul


----------



## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

K G said:


> There is no reason whatsover that they couldn't put the montly editions of the magazine online and let folks print them out for themselves if they wanted to. Imagine the costs they would eliminate! Since online entries are 99% of all entries for HTs and FTs, they don't have to look for customers: they're already on the Internet! There could be different tiers of "subscriptions" for online customers, the submission of event results and advertising would be all but seamless, and the production cost would be a fraction of what it is now....


Something I have wondered about for eons. Could be the difference between an organization run by committee, vs. one run by a focused individual or two with input directly from the customer.

Lisa


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

K G said:


> ...
> 
> RFTN has a another problem that will be a challenge to overcome as well: the demise of the print medium. Magazines and newspapers are going under left and right because of the ubiquity of the Internet. They have a resource (www.working-retriever.com) that they have largely abandoned and left to hackers. There is no reason whatsover that they couldn't put the montly editions of the magazine online and let folks print them out for themselves if they wanted to. Imagine the costs they would eliminate! Since online entries are 99% of all entries for HTs and FTs, they don't have to look for customers: they're already on the Internet! There could be different tiers of "subscriptions" for online customers, the submission of event results and advertising would be all but seamless, and the production cost would be a fraction of what it is now....all that savings might even help pay for the THOUSANDS of dollars they've spent on a product that will NEVER support itself.
> 
> ...


One of the problems is you have the "old guard" still calling the shots and I would guess that some of them arent exactly computer literate
Its just like the RHOF the process is somewhat secretive and not up for public scrutiny by the current rank and file.
Unfortunately its a one horse league like the NFL,as was mentioned earlier in this thread, they own the game and conceivably they could strong arm clubs into playing with their system no matter how dysfunctional it may be...

Working Retriever.com is archaic and as you mentioned basically unattended and not up to date. Its a shame that the site that should house the history of our sport, rules, and other pertinent info has very little of that.

RFTN will soon be a thing of the past because by the time we get our issue the info is only good for scrapbook purposes since the results could be found within hours, sometimes minutes of the end of the event...

Great post K.G.


----------



## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Maybe RFTE should just hire Shayne as a consultant . 

Visions of Dogbert from Dilbert dancing in my head regards ,


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Great post KG. Your spot on.

Now below...



K G said:


> The clubs that make up the National organizations didn't get a vote on this move....weren't asked for feedback or even if they would consider adopting the new service until AFTER it was "online"....
> kg


If you were a member of one of these clubs, how would you have handled such action?


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

John Kelder said:


> Maybe RFTE should just hire Shayne as a consultant .


I think they tried that long ago.....

I wish I was the fly on that wall.


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Great post KG. Your spot on.
> 
> Now below...
> 
> If you were a member of one of these clubs, how would you have handled such action?


I AM a member of one of those clubs! I suspect YOU are as well! The question becomes: WHO is responsible to WHOM?????????

Will the Circle Be Unbroken regards,

kg


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

I stopped my subscription of RFTN when people started posting results on RTF. Why wait 2 months to find out.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> *John didn't you miss getting entered in a FT because of the system ? *
> 
> /Paul


Well yes and no. The system did still have a glitch that has now been fixed, but their customer service did come through for me in the end .

Look Paul/, I'm not on board with the National Clubs handling of this entry thing in its entirity, but as far as the nuts and bolts of this last effort.. for entering a trial that they have listed, it will do for me.

john


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

K G said:


> I AM a member of one of those clubs! I suspect YOU are as well! The question becomes: WHO is responsible to WHOM?????????
> 
> Will the Circle Be Unbroken regards,
> 
> kg


I knew that, I just didn't want to paint a broad brush.

Keeping it hypothetical, personally I would put my foot down as a club member in other ways than internet dismay. 

In other words, what measures do you think are worthy and proper to show your disagreement with any issue you feel strongly against?


----------



## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Sorry i'm behind on this thread... been in bed sick for a few days. Couple things i need to answer.

Guthrie... 
Me posting on the "economics" of an entry service in this thread is different than their letter for a couple reasons.
1. I actually understand the economics of an entry service, whereas the author of the letter clearly does not, and my information was accurate.
2. I was posing a question based on statements made in that letter.
3. I don't pretend to have a clue about when to keep my mouth shut.

Guthrie pt 2...
No one affiliated with the National Clubs or RFTN has EVER offered me a job or an opportunity for consultation. Anything you have heard to the contrary is a total LIE. I am, however, very familiar with the "rumor" of such an offer and i know its originator. Had they made the offer they claimed to have made, i'd probably be sipping the kool-aid right now telling yall how great "our" entry system is. But it never happened. 

Fallon...
I appreciate your candor. I outlined our logic for the price increase (i must be crazy, what other company does that?) and you must also remember that the biggest portion of this "game" puts titles at the end of their dog's name, not the beginning. EE exists for the field trial AND hunt test community. In the end, it has made a big impact and we have seen a substantial reduction in 11th hour entries - and while they may help the HT secretary more so than the FT secretary since FTs don't split flights, its pretty nice for the FT secretary as well. In retrospect, it was the right move and was the lesser evil of an across the board increase to cover rising CC processing fees and rising entry fees. In case you missed "Entry Service Economics 101", we lose money on an $80 entry fee with a $3 processing fee.

Did i miss anything???????

SM


----------



## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I knew that, I just didn't want to paint a broad brush.


That's never stopped you before....;-)



> Keeping it hypothetical, personally I would put my foot down as a club member in other ways than internet dismay.


So....since you ARE a club member, what other ways HAVE you put your foot down? _Seriously_....



> In other words, what measures do you think are worthy and proper to show your disagreement _with any issue you feel strongly against_?


_Now_ you've got that broad brush out. For the sake of thread consistency, I'm going to stay on topic.

This issue is singular, and I believe the die is cast. Ron Ainley's letter pretty much confirms that to me. EE's momentum is not slowing down and every week that passes by without RFTE picking up new events is a week they continue to lose money for ALL NRC/NARC member clubs. Until the product can stand on its own and, as Shayne pointed out, begin to service AKC HT clubs, they are dead in the water. How long they can stand to do that is anyone's guess...and that _alone_ should trouble the great majority of us since we are, by our local club membership, supporters of the National clubs.

kg


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

K G said:


> So....since you ARE a club member, what other ways HAVE you put your foot down? _Seriously_....


At this point, I don't know if I'm a club member actually.

I've never paid any dues towards a club other than volunteer help. 

But if in fact I am a member, I put my foot down towards issues that I'm concerned with.

The online entry service is such a minor issue towards the big picture.

For most here lately, it's obviously a huge issue.

So my question goes back to you..........

When you have a major issue with an act, movement, direction, or anything you feel strong about directly goes against what you or your club stands for..............

What do you do about it?


----------



## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> At this point, I don't know if I'm a club member actually.


Well there's the problem right there. What we need are real clubs, with real membership.

Sorry, i couldn't help it regards,

SM


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Guthrie...
> Me posting on the "economics" of an entry service in this thread is different than their letter for a couple reasons.
> 1. I actually understand the economics of an entry service, whereas the author of the letter clearly does not, and my information was accurate.
> 2. I was posing a question based on statements made in that letter.
> 3. I don't pretend to have a clue about when to keep my mouth shut.


I believe your comparision between a private online entry service that impacts an event directly is drastically different than a private business that has nothing to do with the event and it's infrastructure.



> Guthrie pt 2...
> No one affiliated with the National Clubs or RFTN has EVER offered me a job or an opportunity for consultation. Anything you have heard to the contrary is a total LIE. I am, however, very familiar with the "rumor" of such an offer and i know its originator. Had they made the offer they claimed to have made, i'd probably be sipping the kool-aid right now telling yall how great "our" entry system is. But it never happened.


 

Maybe my post wasn't clear. I was refering to the meeting that possibly, maybe, might have took place discussing the possible purchase of EE.


My every penny spent on entries has been with EE regards,


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Well there's the problem right there. What we need are real clubs, with real membership.
> 
> Sorry, i couldn't help it regards,
> 
> SM


Now your on the right track..................

You can help it. You have your hand in more "club" giving trials than anybody in the country.

Strength of opinions comes with strength of clubs.

Until then, when the foundations crack, the entire house will fall.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Now your on the right track..................
> 
> You can help it. You have your hand in more "club" giving trials than anybody in the country.
> 
> ...


Don't have a retriever in this fight......guess you don't either but I thought you were busy raising children not running all aspects of the retriever game.

We chicken farmers just don't unnerstand.

Simplistic regards.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Well there's the problem right there. What we need are real clubs, with real membership.
> 
> Sorry, i couldn't help it regards,
> 
> SM


 
And people who will put their foot down. So many times people are willing to take a stand, but when it comes time for them to do something, all of a sudden they have no issues and find the issues to be a small issue.

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Well yes and no. The system did still have a glitch that has now been fixed, but their customer service did come through for me in the end .
> 
> Look Paul/, I'm not on board with the National Clubs handling of this entry thing in its entirity, but as far as the nuts and bolts of this last effort.. for entering a trial that they have listed, it will do for me.
> 
> john


Hey I can walk to each trial, but I'd rather drive. Sometimes you just want an easier method of getting there....

/Paul


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Maybe my post wasn't clear. I was refering to the meeting that possibly, maybe, might have took place discussing the possible purchase of EE.


Ah yes, i vaguely remember a meeting where they wanted to buy 100% of EE and have 100% control of EE (no offer was made) and they did tell me i'd be the guy they'd call when the database needed fixin'. Furthermore, that i had done a good job running it - but how great it would be with all their years of experience in the sport. Their plans included going up to $5 per entry and growing the business as they were in a position to force clubs to use it - being backed by the National Clubs and all. _I should note that there is not a single person currently holding office with either National Club that attended that meeting._

Since the picture they painted was not in line with my, possibly crown induced, epiphany that lasted 10 hours and filled 3 large white boards with my plans for an entry service in 2002, no deal was struck. 

EE was created to help the sport, and the sport received it very well because of that fact. I am not sorry for that and I have no intention of rolling over because a small faction believes they should control what we do and they should profit from it. 

I'm sorry if that is TMI or stuff i shouldn't post on the internet, but i'm kinda over it at this point. 

There are some very good people involved with the National Clubs, several i consider friends and respect immensely. So i apologize to them if this comes off as a slam against the National Clubs, that is not my intention. I'm simply tired of the BS. Beat us with your product and beat us with your service - i can live with that. I run field trials with common dogs, i'm used to getting beat - i get beat all the time, i can take it... but come on, this is ridiculous. 

I'm done with this thread, unless i want to post really really bad... but i'm planning to be done with it at this point.

Thanks to everyone for your support! It means a lot to us and its the reason our team works so hard everyday.

SM


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> possibly crown induced


No........


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> And people who will put their foot down. So many times people are willing to take a stand, but when it comes time for them to do something, all of a sudden they have no issues and find the issues to be a small issue.
> 
> /Paul


Exactly....


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> No........


Maybe... and i don't apologize for that either! 

SM


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> At this point, I don't know if I'm a club member actually.
> 
> I've never paid any dues towards a club other than volunteer help.
> 
> But if in fact I am a member, I put my foot down towards issues that I'm concerned with.


How's that worked out so far?



> The online entry service is such a minor issue towards the big picture.
> 
> For most here lately, it's obviously a huge issue.


That you think the issue of "online entry" is "obviously a huge issue" shows that you _really_ haven't tuned in to the bigger problem that has been illustrated here. I don't know what else to say to explain it to you.



> my question goes back to you..........
> 
> When you have a major issue with an act, movement, direction, or anything you feel strong about directly goes against what you or your club stands for..............
> 
> What do you do about it?


I think you have to measure the issue and address it appropriately. My experience is that there is no "one way" to deal with contrary issues. That said, in this case, I will respond to the letter I received directly to the sender, #1.

#2, I have put my comments where I know they'll be seen by people DIRECTLY involved with the issue at hand. In this case, I posted comments on a thread begun on THE primary website read by the majority of folks who run retriever field trials (whether they register and post here or not). Based on the PMs I've received, that plan worked pretty well. There is no doubt that the "powers that be" understand how the rank and file of the sport feel about the issue, and that the issue is a "hotbed" of discussion at the National club level....and the "entry service vs. entry service" issue is but a mere _sliver_ of what needs to be considered at the National level.

kg


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

K G said:


> How's that worked out so far?


Go figure. You would answer a question with a question.;-)



> That you think the issue of "online entry" is "obviously a huge issue" shows that you _really_ haven't tuned in to the bigger problem that has been illustrated here. I don't know what else to say to explain it to you.


Yeah, obviously you and I aren't on the same page. I believe I understand the "bigger" problem. No need to explain.




> I think you have to measure the issue and address it appropriately. My experience is that there is no "one way" to deal with contrary issues. That said, in this case, I will respond to the letter I received directly to the sender, #1.
> 
> #2, I have put my comments where I know they'll be seen by people DIRECTLY involved with the issue at hand. In this case, I posted comments on a thread begun on THE primary website read by the majority of folks who run retriever field trials (whether they register and post here or not). Based on the PMs I've received, that plan worked pretty well. There is no doubt that the "powers that be" understand how the rank and file of the sport feel about the issue, and that the issue is a "hotbed" of discussion at the National club level....and the "entry service vs. entry service" issue is but a mere _sliver_ of what needs to be considered at the National level.
> 
> kg


Recently in the DFW concrete business, there has been a drastic market change in pricing and market share.

Those "in the know" have mentioned for years that the smaller companies will eventually weed themselves out of the market.

So far, nobody has gone anywhere. In fact, the little guy slowly gets bigger.

In response to them going away I've always said... "I'll believe it when I see it."

Who would have thunk........

After all this time, the online entry service business is still a phenomenon.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

I'm trying to understand why you give a flip about all this, Ken.....

kg


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

K G said:


> I'm trying to understand why you give a flip about all this, Ken.....
> 
> kg


To be honest, I don't give a flip about the opinions of RFTNentry and their place in the online entry business. Whether they should or should not be in the business makes no difference to me.

I just find it interesting and worthy of discussion when groups or individuals have such a strong stance on something but aren't willing to take the ultimate step in action.

It's obvious our discussion is going nowhere which shows similarities to the topic itself.

I've tried to have civil discussion with you without making anything personal. You haven't made it directly personal, but some of your responses tend to lean that way.

No biggie. I still think your opinions are worthy and well thought out.

I apologize if you don't view mine in the same.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> To be honest, I don't give a flip about the opinions of RFTNentry and their place in the online entry business. Whether they should or should not be in the business makes no difference to me.
> 
> I just find it interesting and worthy of discussion when groups or individuals have such a strong stance on something but aren't willing to take the ultimate step in action.
> 
> ...


There's no reason to make anything personal, Ken. You've got your opinions, I've got mine. If we agree, fine....if we don't, fine. I don't answer to you, you don't answer to me....and the world still turns. Amazing, huh! 

I'd like to know what your "ultimate step" is, though....guess I missed that somewhere...

Post up a new pic of Gage sometime....preferably holding a slab....;-)....now THAT matters! :smile:

kg


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

K G said:


> I'd like to know what your "ultimate step" is, though....guess I missed that somewhere...


I'd have to dig through some archives, but I've mentioned it several times. If you really want to know I'll explain, but somehow I think it would just open another day or two for us to go round and round with no real understanding of each other.



> Post up a new pic of Gage sometime....preferably holding a slab....;-)
> 
> kg


I'll try here soon. Mama is going out of town for a few days. Me and the boy have some things planned that we ain't gonna tell mama about.

Check this one out though....My two best friends.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Check this one out though....My two best friends.


Worth every penny of a million-billion-gazillion dollars.

Everytime you post about your son and dog I am convinced you have life correctly figured out, my friend.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Kevin I'd have to agree! I think Gut's last post is his best ever.

John


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

And I'll just pile on! Ken will never regret a moment spent with his son!

Tom


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