# Blind Retrieve No Go Problem



## aktexchuck (Jul 25, 2013)

I have a young 4 year old female lab that has developed a serious no go problem on blinds. She needs one more pass for her Master Hunter title. Until 5 weeks ago she never had this problem. Then on the last series of a MH Test she refused to go on "Back" for a relatively simple double blind, max distance 120 yards. She has been trained on difficult blinds ranging from passing poison birds up to 400 yards, handles very well and has been the best of three dogs I have trained. The following day she gave a no go on land blinds in the first series. The following day she gave a no go in the second series of the Q field trial. Three weeks later she gave another no go in the second series water blinds in a MH test. I later ran the same blinds using a collar to make sure she went. She got the first 125 yard water land blind with one handle and lined the second 90 yard blind.

She has been force fetched, forced to pile, etc. Although I train with an E collar, I almost never use it because she does so well and wants to please. I do notice she may appear to be confused on the above no gos but can not understand why since she routinely runs much more difficult blinds.

I would appreciate any suggestions on how to resolve this problem.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

My assessment would be that you are running way too many tests. The first thing that I would do is stop testing immediately and do not resume until she's had a long list of successes in training. It sounds like you already know how to correct for these problems because you have already done it. Now you need to go out and train and get some of those corrections until it is re-conditioned. Good luck.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Absolutely, QUIT running all these tests and giving her repeated opportunities to no-go at a test. Stop.

With a dog of the background and past successes you describe, I think you know what to do. No question if this were my dog, I would be ready every time I set up for a blind and he would get 5 steps forward with a burn and a resend. And I would have to see MANY more blinds without a no-go before I would trust him at another test.

For sure, someone is going to come on here and tell you the dog is confused and/or lacks confidence. With this dogs history as you describe it, he knows what back means. You are well past the teaching phase. There is no confusion unless you let him learn that he can question your send. You say 'back", he goes. Then you help him the rest of the way. Give him the benefit of the doubt and lighten up on any casting corrections until his attitude gets better about going.

As far as confidence, at this point he should be pretty confident that if he doesn't go, he will pay the consequences. 

JS


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

I had an AFC that would occasionally do crazy stuff on blinds. Usually it resulted from the dog being confused on a blind drill that I did where I was trying to be too fine on lines and the picture I wanted was not crystal clear. Or, to me it was clear, but not to her!

Once in a trial she sat looking at me and I cast her time after time. She just sat there. Finally I gave her a walking over on a cast that should have been an angle back and she took it all the way to the bird. She knew what the cast was, she just didn't want to do it.

Sometimes with females you can't read too much into it. She may be coming into heat, she may have had her feelings hurt or whatever. 

I got Gracie out of it by running nothing but known pattern blinds, with the collar on, but without ever using a correction. Usually she would line all of em. The last one was always a water blind with a long entry into an open pond. If she wasn't perfect, it didn't matter, I just wanted her to have a long entry into water with no corrections on it whatsover. Mind you, this was a dog that was the best blind running dog I have ever owned, hands down.

Don't worry too much about it and don't over train to correct it (in my opinion). Lay off a trial or two and take it easy with her. She will be back.


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## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

I agree with both posters if you continue to run test and she continues to not handle you are going to be setting a precedence for her to blow you off with out any consequences. Make sure she is healthy that there is not some medical reason for this behavior. I will say when my bitch goes into heat she is sensitive (not you honey I was talking about the dog). 

Work on building her confidence backup as Tim has described above. I don't use an e-collar so I can't force the dog to do the work some times I like to put a launcher out there and send the dog to the launcher as a blind. Stop the dog half way there and then give them a back cast and then when the dog has taken the cast I will launch the bumper as a reward for talking the cast. I don't' like to do a lot of those but some times it can turn the confidence around fast.

Keep in mind I work with Spaniels and they can be a little more sensitive to pressure.

Remember its not about the finish line its about the journey and the time spent with your dog.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

aktexchuck said:


> I have a young 4 year old female lab that has developed a serious no go problem on blinds. She needs one more pass for her Master Hunter title. Until 5 weeks ago she never had this problem. Then on the last series of a MH Test she refused to go on "Back" for a relatively simple double blind, max distance 120 yards. She has been trained on difficult blinds ranging from passing poison birds up to 400 yards, handles very well and has been the best of three dogs I have trained. The following day she gave a no go on land blinds in the first series. The following day she gave a no go in the second series of the Q field trial. Three weeks later she gave another no go in the second series water blinds in a MH test. I later ran the same blinds using a collar to make sure she went. She got the first 125 yard water land blind with one handle and lined the second 90 yard blind.
> 
> She has been force fetched, forced to pile, etc.* Although I train with an E collar, I almost never use it *because she does so well and wants to please. I do notice she may appear to be confused on the above no gos but can not understand why since she routinely runs much more difficult blinds.
> 
> I would appreciate any suggestions on how to resolve this problem.



Have you ever intentionally created no-gos in your training ? Steve S


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

steve schreiner said:


> Have you ever intentionally created no-gos in your training ? Steve S


Ok I'll bite. WTH are you talking about???


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Tony Marshall said:


> Ok I'll bite. WTH are you talking about???


Force to a pile can create them. One of the reasons we do them.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Howard N said:


> Force to a pile can create them. One of the reasons we do them.


Ahhh! Gotcha. I didn't think about it that way. I have just always looked at it as prevention and a creating a method of correction for a multitude of different things (de-pop, de-flare) for example. Never thought of it as an intentional creation of no-goes.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

JS said:


> For sure, someone is going to come on here and tell you the dog is confused and/or lacks confidence.


That's possible J.S., but it _ain't_ going to be me 




> With this dogs history as you describe it, he *knows* what back means. You are well past the teaching phase. There is no confusion unless you let him learn that he can question your send. You say 'back", he goes. Then you help him the rest of the way. JS


Am in your camp-
You command BACK! and the dog dang well better go SOMEWHERE even if it's the wrong line!

This dog didn't get to where it's at by *not* going.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Tony Marshall said:


> Ok I'll bite. WTH are you talking about???


You ever snub a dog up when you send for the pile ? Snub means to stop the dog with a rope so it can't leave your side thus creating a no go ...How do you correct for a no-go..? Back burn back or heel stimulate heel ,then sit and resend ...back ..? Steve S


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

steve schreiner said:


> You ever snub a dog up when you send for the pile ? Snub means to stop the dog with a rope so it can't leave your side thus creating a no go ...How do you correct for a no-go..? Back burn back or heel stimulate heel ,then sit and resend ...back ..? Steve S


Never heard of it. Thats why I'm on here though. You learn something new every day.


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## aktexchuck (Jul 25, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions. She has recently run two double header hunt tests which were separated by about 4 weeks. I also thought about her going into heat but checked both times and that wasn't the case. Also, I don't have a problem with handling, just getting her off the line and ONLY in the last 4 hunt tests or one field trial. Except for these recent problems, she has never had a confidence problem on cold blinds or memory blinds during training or in an event. It's almost like she is now intimidated at an organized event _ but only on blinds. In many cases she has been the best or one of the best on marks. I have even tried walking her to the line and sending her without trying to set up for a good line. That worked once.

As for more training, I have run many blinds of all types and difficulty and do not have a problem in training. I have even tried to wear her down first but still she always goes in training.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tony Marshall said:


> Never heard of it.


Me neither, seems pretty unfair to the dog to me.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> You ever snub a dog up when you send for the pile ? Snub means to stop the dog with a rope so it can't leave your side thus creating a no go ...How do you correct for a no-go..? Back burn back or heel stimulate heel ,then sit and resend ...back ..? Steve S


I would not advocate doing this to a young dog especially if you are a new handler? JMO


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> Me neither, seems pretty unfair to the dog to me.


Not if done correctly......but ...all things can be unfair or abusive if done incorrectly....Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I would not advocate doing this to a young dog especially if you are a new handler? JMO


It is done when the dog is going through force to a pile...At what ever that age may be...Steve S PS: I see horror pictures in every ones minds when trying to think how it is done and the amount of pressure use....

An additional thought came when looking over some other threads....When we don't know the drill or the actions that make up the drill we usually have some ideas in our minds based on previous material we read and or used ...Like the Hillman info on puppy collar stimulation , Evans idea of using the collar to in force (here) come in a very young dog....It seems most of the time we jump to conclusions that have no relevance to the actual drill...This is why it is best to have a mentor to train with and some one that has been down that road to show and explain the exact events .... Also I never got an answer to my question about addressing no-gos with back burn back or heel stimulation heel,sit and resend with back ... Steve S


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> Not if done correctly......but ...all things can be unfair or abusive if done incorrectly....Steve S


I guess we don't all train the same way


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

The OP stated "I do notice she may appear to be confused on the above no gos but can not understand why . . ." 
You know the dog better than any of us armchair trainers so you're the only one who can figure out why she is confused or uncertain. My kid went through a period of no-gos (though only once in a trial) and I tried all the "fixes." Finally just stepped back a few weeks and only did marks with guaranteed success, with a few wagon-wheel and dbl T drills. Finally back to cold blinds and after that re-enforced with some low-pressure FTPs. In my case I think the boy just went through a period where he was afraid of making a mistake. So he locked up. Just had to unlock him. 
Good luck. Let us know how she does.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Good Dogs said:


> The OP stated "I do notice she may appear to be confused on the above no gos but can not understand why . . ."
> You know the dog better than any of us armchair trainers so you're the only one who can figure out why she is confused or uncertain. My kid went through a period of no-gos (though only once in a trial) and I tried all the "fixes." Finally just stepped back a few weeks and only did marks with guaranteed success, with a few wagon-wheel and dbl T drills. Finally back to cold blinds and after that re-enforced with some low-pressure FTPs. In my case I think the boy just went through a period where he was afraid of making a mistake. So he locked up. Just had to unlock him.
> Good luck. Let us know how she does.


For what it's worth,and I've had a couple in for training (and we don't use collar) or any FF or FTP ,but done much as Good Dogs has said and they all come good!
Only had one that was a 'true no-go' on blinds and quite recently ,where I actually asked advice for some nice guy's your side of the pond and they helped me tremendously.
Good Dog mentions ''Unlock him'' , and that's what we had to do with much consultation on a personal level rather than open forum,which can/could get mixed up.
Final 'Unlock' for this guy was having the bird boy throw a bird then I would put the dog in the truck! and drive off.........?...hope you get yours sorted.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> I guess we don't all train the same way


That is for sure Ed ....All forms of mix and match programs in use ,no collar ( the English way or British as some put it ) some teach with the collar while others just use it to reinforce known commands....some don't FF... Steve S


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## aktexchuck (Jul 25, 2013)

No, I have not intentionally created no gos in training. Not even sure how I would do that if I wanted to. As I stated, she has not had a problem with no gos in training and since her first Masters Hunt Test two years ago, she has never had no problems in hunt tests until out of the blue she had no gos in two MH test, on Q on one weekend and then again a no go in a MH test 4 weeks later.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

"..she had no gos in two MH test, on Q on one weekend and then again a no go in a MH test 4 weeks later."
So what is going on at a test/trial that's locking her up? Dogs are incredibly astute at reading our vibes. With all due respect to the "force her to do it" folks it sure sounds to me that your gal is just afraid of the blind and a test situation just ramps up both of your nerves. I'd go all happy and positive with her for a while and see how she responds. No one wants to see a dog do the work with its ears down and tail tucked.


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

I have a few questions before I give my .02 on the subject.

1. Are you messing with her at the line? Are you really trying to get that fine line to the blind? If you are... Do you do the same in training?

2. Does the dog ever do this in training? 

3. How often do you run just simple confidence blinds?...


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## TJ Mallette (Jul 3, 2013)

A lot of good advice so far. 

Maybe make sure she is really locked in the direction you want her going before you send her. This happened to me in training before when I wasn't taking my time to line him up properly. She might have been confused on where to go, so instead she no goed. 

Good luck and I'm sure y'all will get it resolved.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Trykon said:


> I have a few questions before I gives .02 on the subject.
> 
> 1. Are you messing with her at the line? Are you really trying to get that fine line to the blind? If you are... Do you do the same in training?
> 
> ...



Really good questions.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Just put her up and quit trainer her. 

/Paul


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## Arnie (Nov 26, 2012)

Good Dogs said:


> "..she had no gos in two MH test, on Q on one weekend and then again a no go in a MH test 4 weeks later."
> So what is going on at a test/trial that's locking her up? Dogs are incredibly astute at reading our vibes. With all due respect to the "force her to do it" folks it sure sounds to me that your gal is just afraid of the blind and a test situation just ramps up both of your nerves. I'd go all happy and positive with her for a while and see how she responds. No one wants to see a dog do the work with its ears down and tail tucked.


Agree. It happened to me earlier this year after a lot of success in passing the Senior level tests. A training buddy pointed out that I was sending him with my Marine DI voice and that I should try getting a bit softer. I hadn't noticed that I was coming on strong in tests and when the problem first manifested itself I got even stronger (including adding pressure). Sure enough when I lightened up the problem went away.

They are very sensitive to our energy.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

JS said:


> Absolutely, QUIT running all these tests and giving her repeated opportunities to no-go at a test. Stop.
> 
> With a dog of the background and past successes you describe, I think you know what to do. No question if this were my dog, I would be ready every time I set up for a blind and he would get 5 steps forward with a burn and a resend. And I would have to see MANY more blinds without a no-go before I would trust him at another test.
> 
> ...


Most learn--ard trainers would give you this answer. ( trial wise) Trust me I know.

Keith


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Please, Wayne has the answer, put the dog up for a couple of weeks then find a new trainer. Proven effective. Why waste all this time, simple fix

/ Paul


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## aktexchuck (Jul 25, 2013)

Howard,
I know you have plenty of "pelts on your wall". If you haven't guessed, I'm Chuck M, the dog in question is Cinder out of Willow and Roy's Jag. Is your advice to create no go's by running force to pile until she no goes and then burn?

One additional piece of info. After Cinder no go'd in two consecutive MH tests in Fairbanks, I took her to the legal training area there. I though maybe it was the heat that caused the no go's. I ran about 15 consecutive blinds ranging from 100+ to 250 + yards hoping to get a no go and then burn. I never got one. In fact, I almost ran too many and gave her a heat stroke. Lucky I had an outdoor shower on the RV with cold water. Too bad Roy's not around in case he has some pertinent advice based on Jag. I never had this problem with Willow (mother) or Onyx (grandmother).
Sandy thinks Cinder can sense loss of confidence in me and there's nothing I can do about that since I don't know when or where this will happen again. It did happen again at Turnagain. As I stated, I reran the exact blinds later, and she got the long one with one handle and line the short one. She never has this problem in training. I believe she ran the exact test two years ago when she was 2 and had no problems.

I've signed up for the two HT's at Point M but am afraid the same will probably happen again. 

Any suggestions.
Chuck


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Please, Wayne has the answer, put the dog up for a couple of weeks then find a new trainer. Proven effective. Why waste all this time, simple fix
> 
> / Paul


You think you've banged this drum enough yet? 

You made your point a while ago. Now you're nagging.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

aktexchuck said:


> Howard,
> I know you have plenty of "pelts on your wall". If you haven't guessed, I'm Chuck M, the dog in question is Cinder out of Willow and Roy's Jag. Is your advice to create no go's by running force to pile until she no goes and then burn?
> 
> One additional piece of info. After Cinder no go'd in two consecutive MH tests in Fairbanks, I took her to the legal training area there. I though maybe it was the heat that caused the no go's. I ran about 15 consecutive blinds ranging from 100+ to 250 + yards hoping to get a no go and then burn. I never got one. In fact, I almost ran too many and gave her a heat stroke. Lucky I had an outdoor shower on the RV with cold water.* Too bad Roy's not around in case he has some pertinent advice based on Jag.* I never had this problem with Willow (mother) or Onyx (grandmother).
> ...


what would you like to know about Jag ? have seen two litters of his pass thru our house from the breeding with Nola..can also tell you about Jag's mom Kirby (Kleen Sweep)...

Jag throws a high rolling dog, if you got a chance to see Jag's Piper before Roy passed you will know what I mean...our dog Brig is a high roller even at age 7...even his sister FC AFC Knollwoods Sweet Lily is one heck of a studette...Jag throws a dog that can mark, look at Paula Feguson's dog Lucky (Hiwood Jag's Wild Card)...BUT his pups can be a touch on the sensitive side...if you want to know more about Jag give me or my brother a call and we will tell you all we know about him


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> You think you've banged this drum enough yet?
> 
> You made your point a while ago. Now you're nagging.


Your right. I'm sure enough advice will be provided.

/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

aktexchuck said:


> Howard,
> I know you have plenty of "pelts on your wall". If you haven't guessed, I'm Chuck M, the dog in question is Cinder out of Willow and Roy's Jag. Is your advice to create no go's by running force to pile until she no goes and then burn?
> 
> One additional piece of info. After Cinder no go'd in two consecutive MH tests in Fairbanks, I took her to the legal training area there. I though maybe it was the heat that caused the no go's. I ran about 15 consecutive blinds ranging from 100+ to 250 + yards hoping to get a no go and then burn. I never got one. In fact, I almost ran too many and gave her a heat stroke. Lucky I had an outdoor shower on the RV with cold water. Too bad Roy's not around in case he has some pertinent advice based on Jag. I never had this problem with Willow (mother) or Onyx (grandmother).
> ...


Oh, You're North Carolina Chuck. 

Yeah, if it had been my dog I would have taken her off the grounds and forced to a 20 yard pile 2, 3, or 4 times in a row after the first episode. Force at the level the dog needs not the max 'cause you're mad. That might have been all you needed. or you might have to go through a month long session of basics all over again. I don't know the dog or the problem.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Well it appears the post I responded to had been deleted. That will teach me to use quotes. - I will take my own advice and Stop whining.

My apologies to the OP. I hope that you figure out what is going on with your dog.


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## aktexchuck (Jul 25, 2013)

Howard,
Not sure if your received my earlier reply on the Blind Retrieve No Go Problem. The dog in question is Cinder out of Willow and Roy's Jag. Additional info is I did try to create a no go situation in Fairbanks after Cinder gave no go's in two consecutive MH test. I though the temperature may have contributed to the problem so after the second no go, I trained on the grounds past the highway bridge. Did about 15 blinds _ 100 to 275 yards. Never got a no go and almost had a heat stroke problem but was able to cooler down in RV shower. That evening and the nest morning I repeated similar blinds and never got a no go. That morning in the Q, she was one of 4 out of about 15 that didn't require handling on the marks. Then another no go on the blind. Three weeks later another no go at Turnagain. I repeated later with the collar and she lined the short blind and required one handle on the long one. I believe she ran the same two blinds two years ago when she was 2. 
I'd really appreciate any helpful advice you could provide. She's entered at PM but am concerned may have the same problem. As stated before, the problem NEVER happens during training.
Chuck M


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I really don't know Chuck. I said what I would have done and what I'd do in post number 35.


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## aktexchuck (Jul 25, 2013)

1. I did in the first two HT's mentioned originally. The second two HT's I walked her to the line and sent her as soon as she seemed to be looking the right way. That worked for two sets of blinds in one test (She went out on a water blind when I handled when I should not have). The following day, she no go'd the first series on exact blinds she had done in the past when I tried to send her immediately. When I repeated after the test later with no one around, she lined one of the blinds and took one handle to get the long one about 175 yds.

2. She never has done this (no go) in training with or w/o the collar.

3. Not very often. However in training she routinely runs cold blinds of various difficulty with enthusiasm.


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## aktexchuck (Jul 25, 2013)

Thanks Howard. My luck just gets worse. I went out of state for 2 weeks and when I returned, Cinder, went into heat so I won't get to see what happens at PM. Now I'll have to go through another 2 to 3 day HT in the lower 48.
Chuck


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