# concealed carry and judgeing



## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

with illinois about to approve to approve cc. if you are judgeing and some one comes up packing, how do you handle it? the way i see it if you see it, they should hide it. if it is in a holster it would be different then it needs to be covered. hrc says only approved guns at the line. i can see how you handle it on private grounds but if you are on state grounds where it's ok how do you tell some one that can't carry when the supreme court says it's ok


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

There is absolutely no reason for a handler to be carrying a weapon at the line. Lock it and leave it in the truck. If there is any grief call it "exposed training equipment" and say bye-bye.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

pat addis said:


> with illinois about to approve to approve cc. if you are judgeing and some one comes up packing, how do you handle it? the way i see it if you see it, they should hide it. if it is in a holster it would be different then it needs to be covered. hrc says only approved guns at the line. i can see how you handle it on private grounds but if you are on state grounds where it's ok how do you tell some one that can't carry when the supreme court says it's ok


Is his a hypothetical question or did someone actually wear a gun to the line?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I CC when at RMRC trial grounds, but when I walk to the line I remove my side arm - I carry rat shot because the place has rattle snakes and I've had enough close encounters on those grounds not want to leave my sidearm in my vehicle. As a judge I could care less if a handler is carrying, I'm there to judge the dog work.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> As a judge I could care less if a handler is carrying, I'm there to judge the dog work.


That's the way I look at it too.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

FOM said:


> I CC when at RMRC trial grounds, but when I walk to the line I remove my side arm - I carry rat shot because the place has rattle snakes and I've had enough close encounters on those grounds not want to leave my sidearm in my vehicle. As a judge I could care less if a handler is carrying, I'm there to judge the dog work.


I agree too- judge the dog- but honestly, not sure why anyone needs to pack it to the line! Mine is with me when Im out airing, and in the hotel room, and the truck, but if you dont trust the dog people enough to not pack to the line- perhaps you should take to another sport! (I dont trust the snakes though FOM- if they were an issue at tests where I was too, I'd have it on me also. yuck!)


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> Is his a hypothetical question or did someone actually wear a gun to the line?


no it hasn't happened to me i was just wondering and it isn't that i don't trust people. i think that people at a hunt test are safer than most people


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

FOM said:


> As a judge I could care less if a handler is carrying, I'm there to judge the dog work.


Precisely my view as well. Provided there's no AKC rules or other state laws that would forbid it........I'm not going to worry about it either.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

I feel safer knowing that people are carrying. Just judge the dogs not the people.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Good Dogs said:


> There is absolutely no reason for a handler to be carrying a weapon at the line. Lock it and leave it in the truck. If there is any grief call it "exposed training equipment" and say bye-bye.


But Bob concealed is concealed. You wouldn't know, and didn't know when handlers were carrying 
i can promise you have never seen me when I was not carrying. I am not alone, I know a number of "our" group that are always armed. The old what you don't know won't hurt you, unless you hurt me...". It is a part of my daily dress and in the 25+ years that it has been so I have never had a single incident and would be no more likely to have any incident while running a dog than I would doing anything else. No big deal. 
Judge the dog work and don't worry about what is in the handlers pants.


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## Dos Patos (Oct 15, 2012)

badbullgator said:


> But Bob concealed is concealed. You wouldn't know, and didn't know when handlers were carrying


Bingo and ya never know when a nut job is gonna show up anywhere these days.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

Billie said:


> I agree too- judge the dog- but honestly, not sure why anyone needs to pack it to the line! Mine is with me when Im out airing, and in the hotel room, and the truck, but if you dont trust the dog people enough to not pack to the line- perhaps you should take to another sport! (I dont trust the snakes though FOM- if they were an issue at tests where I was too, I'd have it on me also. yuck!)


i'm just curious where in my post did i say i didn't trust dog people


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> But Bob concealed is concealed. You wouldn't know, and didn't know when handlers were carrying
> i can promise you have never seen me when I was not carrying. I am not alone, I know a number of "our" group that are always armed. The old what you don't know won't hurt you, unless you hurt me...". It is a part of my daily dress and in the 25+ years that it has been so I have never had a single incident and would be no more likely to have any incident while running a dog than I would doing anything else. No big deal.
> Judge the dog work and *don't worry about what is in the handlers pants*.


Well you are no fun....


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

I wouldn't get to CC happy yet in Illinois. Our state Attorney General has appealed the decision that mandates a CC law. If you own a gun in this state you're guilty until proven innocent!


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

pat addis said:


> no it hasn't happened to me i was just wondering and it isn't that i don't trust people. i think that people at a hunt test are safer than most people


Wow did you really just say that? Why do you think that your safer I mean really? I have carried concealed at the line several times mostly for Bear protection but I dont think it should be an issue as long as there is no safety issue.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

If the op is just concerned about a nut job with a concealed gun showin up at a Hun test,,

have you considered the fact a real gun already is provided to you at the line, and if you was a nut job, all ya gotta do is "Cary" a few rounds of live ammo to slip in it , right.


God, and I get told I worry to much


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I actually hope that more FT/HT start to carry concealed, especially off the grounds since the cargo that we carry is virtually priceless and somewhat irreplaceable, add to that the fact that some of the places that we train,run, and stay are remote and in many ways we are somewhat defenseless from some nefarious characters...as for carrying on the line, I will leave that up to the FTC premium or the local venue laws, to me its a non issue


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> If the op is just concerned about a nut job with a concealed gun showin up at a Hun test,,
> 
> have you considered the fact a real gun already is provided to you at the line, and if you was a nut job, all ya gotta do is "Cary" a few rounds of live ammo to slip in it , right.
> 
> ...


lol. 

Aint HRC all about having real guns at the line? I have been told that is the reason they wear camo and don't shoot live birds!








(says the HRC test chair)


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## Corey Capozzi (Jan 15, 2012)

FOM said:


> I CC when at RMRC trial grounds, but when I walk to the line I remove my side arm - I carry rat shot because the place has rattle snakes and I've had enough close encounters on those grounds not want to leave my sidearm in my vehicle. As a judge I could care less if a handler is carrying, I'm there to judge the dog work.


As Americans we should careless. Its call Concealed Carry for a reason, if its not concealed you are doing it wrong.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I don't recall any rule in HRC or AKC that prevents anyone from carrying a sidearm. Oregon is an open carry state, I fail to see how anyone can impose on my legal right to carry or try and bend hunt test rules to stop me. 

/Paul


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## Corey Capozzi (Jan 15, 2012)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I don't recall any rule in HRC or AKC that prevents anyone from carrying a sidearm. Oregon is an open carry state, I fail to see how anyone can impose on my legal right to carry or try and* bend hunt test rules to stop me.
> 
> */Paul


Thats what im saying


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Perhaps those concerned have fallen victim to the "Every rule must have rules to enforce the rule" syndrome???

Ever play kickball with ghost runners? Then there are a dozen ghost-runner rules.

Except in kickball eventually everybody goes home for dinner...


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## Brian Courser (Feb 10, 2010)

I don't see a need to carry it to the line to run a dog. But it is called concealed carry which means you should not be able to know if they are carrying. So if that is the case it is a mute point. Unless it is a gun free zone of course. Just my two cents


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

pat addis said:


> i'm just curious where in my post did i say i didn't trust dog people


It wasnt specific to anyone. Just generally, the folks at a dog test are 'dog people' so I wouldnt feel enough threat to need to pack my gun to the line. Now, to and from teh grounds, in the motels/parking areas, anywhere else, yeah, but I feel pretty "at home" with the dog folks and wouldnt expect to need it there...


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## Brian Courser (Feb 10, 2010)

thelast2 said:


> Wow did you really just say that? Why do you think that your safer I mean really? I have carried concealed at the line several times mostly for Bear protection but I dont think it should be an issue as long as there is no safety issue.


I don't think he was talking anout being safe from bears. But the group of people in close proximiity are a better class for the most part then those that you will run into during your travels to and from the venue


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

badbullgator said:


> The old what you don't know won't hurt you, unless you hurt me...". It is a part of my daily dress and in the 25+ years that it has been so I have never had a single incident and would be no more likely to have any incident while running a dog than I would doing anything else. No big deal. Judge the dog work and don't worry about what is in the handlers pants.


+1 Exactly, Couldnt have said it any better


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

So anyone can get this CC? Do you have to register?pass a test?? mental test??/ or can anyone get the permit? As a contestant in any event, I would not care but then maybe I should care depending on the person??? I just want to be safe and have fun!!!No worries.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> So anyone can get this CC? Do you have to register?pass a test?? mental test??/ or can anyone get the permit? As a contestant in any event, I would not care but then maybe I should care depending on the person??? I just want to be safe and have fun!!!No worries.


Depends on what state you live in,and also the county laws...You usually have to go thru about an 6-8 hour class where you also have to prove you are proficient with that weapon, along of course passing the background check federal/state...Some states will recognize other states permits and some will not


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

carry conceal means just that - you can carry , the weapon must be hidden from view AT ALL TIMES .In NY , it is a violation of the law if your weapon is visible ..As far as the rules , nothing comes to mind that CC breaks the rules . HOWEVER ,if in view , it COULD be interpreted as a training device (can you come to the line with your blank pistol in view ?) .And last ,but not least , could that piece of cold steel enter a judge's mind when pencil is in hand ?? Not saying it should regards...


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## Steve Kelley (Feb 21, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> But Bob concealed is concealed. You wouldn't know, and didn't know when handlers were carrying
> i can promise you have never seen me when I was not carrying. I am not alone, I know a number of "our" group that are always armed. The old what you don't know won't hurt you, unless you hurt me...". It is a part of my daily dress and in the 25+ years that it has been so I have never had a single incident and would be no more likely to have any incident while running a dog than I would doing anything else. No big deal.
> Judge the dog work and don't worry about what is in the handlers pants.


Well said, when i judge I could care less what the handler is wearing or carrying. I also have a CCW,but dont usually carry to the line but its in a locked truck when not on me. Its about the dog work not the politics !!


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Brian Courser said:


> I don't think he was talking anout being safe from bears. But the group of people in close proximiity are a better class for the most part then those that you will run into during your travels to and from the venue


I realize what he was talking about. And yes most of the dog people I have met are the kind of people I like to hang around with. I learned a long time ago to not believe that bad things never happen to good people.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

John Kelder said:


> carry conceal means just that - you can carry , the weapon must be hidden from view AT ALL TIMES .In NY , it is a violation of the law if your weapon is visible ..As far as the rules , nothing comes to mind that CC breaks the rules . HOWEVER ,if in view , it COULD be interpreted as a training device (can you come to the line with your blank pistol in view ?) .And last ,but not least , could that piece of cold steel enter a judge's mind when pencil is in hand ?? Not saying it should regards...


It better not or they are violating the committments they made when they agreed to judge. My sidearm is not a training device, it may be something used in training, but so are holding blinds, the stick they give me to handle with, my boots, my hat, my underwear, the list goes on and on. If its legal to carry in the state, the judges have no authority to override that.

/Paul


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## Pat G (Jul 6, 2007)

When I decided to carry I decided to carry 100% of the time. It's never been an issue with the judges because they were never aware of it


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> It better not or they are violating the committments they made when they agreed to judge. My sidearm is not a training device, it may be something used in training, but so are holding blinds, the stick they give me to handle with, my boots, my hat, my underwear, the list goes on and on. If its legal to carry in the state, the judges have no authority to override that.
> 
> /Paul


Bingo!!!!!!


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

It seems as though it would come in handy when your dog brought back a flyer that wasn't dead.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Dave Plesko said:


> It seems as though it would come in handy when your dog brought back a flyer that wasn't dead.



Ah Ha! And the crux of the issue comes out. Years ago a brown shirt (fed warden) and a green shirt (state warden) and I chatted in a parking area. Asking if is was legal to Deer hunt and Duck hunt at the same time. None could find away. Fed duck hunting laws. Type of gun, number of rounds in may hold, type of shot. 
You cannot shoot a duck with a .45acp. even CC folk, when duck hunting need to be mindfull of the fed regs.
So.. at a hunt test, based upon duck hunting. it is against the rule.
At a field trial, come loaded for Bear!;-)


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> Ah Ha! And the crux of the issue comes out. Years ago a brown shirt (fed warden) and a green shirt (state warden) and I chatted in a parking area. Asking if is was legal to Deer hunt and Duck hunt at the same time. None could find away. Fed duck hunting laws. Type of gun, number of rounds in may hold, type of shot.
> You cannot shoot a duck with a .45acp. even CC folk, when duck hunting need to be mindfull of the fed regs.
> So.. at a hunt test, based upon duck hunting. it is against the rule.
> At a field trial, come loaded for Bear!;-)


Archery for waterfowl is perfectly legal and slugs dropped in a shot gun to take an elk that might be acting like a swamp donkey is also perfectly legal. Who doesn't have a concealed weapon in their truck at a hunt test? Are there people who show up at hunt tests without a shot gun behind the seat of their rig? Every one of our popper guns in the field is functioning 12gauge. Usually at least 8-10 live gunners on the grounds at all times. What harm is a pistol on someones' belt going to do? There's already a lot of firepower walking around the place with or without it. 

Nobody does background checks on the kid walking around with an 870 on a sling hanging on his shoulder??


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave Plesko said:


> It seems as though it would come in handy when your dog brought back a flyer that wasn't dead.


That makes perfect sense Dave but the guys who use real guns on the line don't use real live ducks in the field? Can't figure that one out. I know you're just itching for a way to talk about plastic buckets today..


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> Ah Ha! And the crux of the issue comes out. Years ago a brown shirt (fed warden) and a green shirt (state warden) and I chatted in a parking area. Asking if is was legal to Deer hunt and Duck hunt at the same time. None could find away. Fed duck hunting laws. Type of gun, number of rounds in may hold, type of shot.
> You cannot shoot a duck with a .45acp. even CC folk, when duck hunting need to be mindfull of the fed regs.
> So.. at a hunt test, based upon duck hunting. it is against the rule.
> At a field trial, come loaded for Bear!;-)



It is legal to cc when hunting, at least in Florida. In fact open carry is legal while fishing or hunting and while traveling to and from hunting or fishing. I cannot shoot a duck or alligator with my .45 but I can carry it with me while I am hunting. I cannot legally shoot a fish with it, but I can carry it while I am fishing. Carrying and shooting are two different things. Carrying alcohol in your car is not illegal, but drinking while driving the car is.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Just before Washington State admitted they lied to the public and had a wolf pack they started allowing us archery guys to carry a sidearm. Open carry or concealed if you are permitted.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Who doesn't have a concealed weapon in their truck at a hunt test? Are there people who show up at hunt tests without a shot gun behind the seat of their rig?


Judging by some of the stances taken and statements made, not just this thread or even this forum. I wud say not many cuz does thangs scar the britches off o dem.(only uneducated ******** carry guns around everywhere they go...LOL) This would make a good poll of course im sure it would get colorful.:snipersmile:


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

thelast2 said:


> Judging by some of the stances taken and statements made, not just this thread or even this forum. I wud say not many cuz does thangs scar the britches off o dem.(only uneducated ******** carry guns around everywhere they go...LOL) This would make a good poll of course im sure it would get colorful.:snipersmile:


I was directing traffic last year at the Field Trial Specialty with my shot gun slung over my shoulder. It got a lot of laughs and everybody parked where I told them to park.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Dave Plesko said:


> It seems as though it would come in handy when your dog brought back a flyer that wasn't dead.


Or you could blow the judges away if they dropped your dog. 

This is crazy. What do you need a sidearm for at the line at a dog trial?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Or you could blow the judges away if they dropped your dog.
> 
> This is crazy. What do you need a sidearm for at the line at a dog trial?


You beat me to it.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

When I wear a pistol it is 100% less likely to fall into the hands of a criminal and be used to commit crimes. Everyone should do their part to reduce stolen weapons by keeping them on their person at all times. It is a very effective tool at reducing crime rates.

Dave just wants to use the HRC buckets for target practice and make them all buy chairs like normal hunters. lol...


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Or you could blow the judges away if they dropped your dog.
> 
> This is crazy. What do you need a sidearm for at the line at a dog trial?



I was thinking the same thing. I have wished I could concealed carry when traveling to and from trials. Mostly because I travel alone through the wee hours in strange places. I air dogs alone late at night, etc. However many of the states I travel to and through don't have reciprocal agreements with South Dakota. So, I leave my gun at home. I have no idea why I'd need to step to the line with a firearm...

I generally trust myself a lot more than other people. Guns make me nervous, only because I have immense respect for how destructive they can be in the wrong or in irresponsible hands.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Or you could blow the judges away if they dropped your dog.
> 
> This is crazy. What do you need a sidearm for at the line at a dog trial?


Because someone needs to be there to save the judges life, when the said whacko's dog gets dropped and the whacko trys to take the judges life.

Yep now every gun owner is out looking for someone to blow away, Just like everyone who drives a car is going to drive drunk!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Back in the late eighties when I regularly visited NW Montana and into the early ninties when we moved here, it was not unusual to encounter people wearing a pistol on their hip in your regular daily travels. I'm sorry to say that it is much more rare to see that today. Montana is not only an open carry State, you can also conceal carry anywhere in the State without a permit except an incorporated town. As others have pointed out a concealed weapon is concealed, so I have no idea how many, if any of the thousands of handlers I have see walk to the line in a field trail or hunt test were carrying concealed, but I can say that I have never seen anybody walk to the line with a pistol strapped to his or her hip, (not that there's anything wrong with that).

With all the thought we put into what we are carrying, whistle, lucky lead ect. and wearing black handler's coat or white, muck boots or not, etc, I would suspect that someone wearing an exposed gun is doing it more for show than anything else, but if I were judging I probably would just ignore it and watch the dog work.

John


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> When I wear a pistol it is 100% less likely to fall into the hands of a criminal and be used to commit crimes. Everyone should do their part to reduce stolen weapons by keeping them on their person at all times. It is a very effective tool at reducing crime rates.
> 
> Dave just wants to use the HRC buckets for target practice and make them all buy chairs like normal hunters. lol...


That's a good a answer as it could be . I bet you watch football too and know they don't talk about you in the huddle.
I can't argue your logic. Of course everybody carries a shotgun or two or three in thier training vehicles. My training partner carries a Ruger .22 revolver that he uses with .22 ramset blanks for training. I carried as part of my job for many years ,but, can't remember carrying a sidearm to the line at a hunt test nor field trial and could have been disciplined by my agency if someone snitched on me. It was 24/7 or bust for carrying a sidearm, it was a must.
For me it was relaxing not to be armed, now, it wasn't too relaxing at some of the motels that I stayed in, so I guess I understand. In general I believe in CCW by licensed holders. Probably a sign of the times. I do respect your logic though.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

This is an astounding thread, I am reminded of a popular turn of phrase we used at the height of a wave of violence in hockey. I'll paraphrase it to suit this situation:
What would you do if you turned up at a fire fight ....and a Hunt Test broke out?!"

Second amendment aside; can anyone provide an example of when a hand gun was useful at a test or trial?


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm usually carrying 100% of the time. When I am, I can guarantee you that you will not have a clue I am. That is as it should be. If I were a judge and I happened to notice a handler carrying a weapon it wouldn't bother me one bit. The only thing I'd say to the handler is that they have not done a very good job of concealing their weapon.


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## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> It better not or they are violating the committments they made when they agreed to judge. My sidearm is not a training device, it may be something used in training, but so are holding blinds, the stick they give me to handle with, my boots, my hat, my underwear, the list goes on and on. If its legal to carry in the state, the judges have no authority to override that.
> 
> /Paul


I am TOTALLY in favor of CCW but while I agree that "the judges have no authority to override that."...that is only because there appear to be no rules about packing during Tests. But the rulemakers COULD promulgate such a rule and then, state law would have nothing to do with it. 

You can't wear camo at a Hunt Test...or even carry an exposed leash to the line etc., so they can make any rules they want.

But I don't imagine that any such rule will ever be made...nor should it be..so even open carry would be fine with me in localities where it is legal.

(-:


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## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

blind ambition said:


> This is an astounding thread, I am reminded of a popular turn of phrase we used at the height of a wave of violence in hockey. I'll paraphrase it to suit this situation:
> What would you do if you turned up at a fire fight ....and a Hunt Test broke out?!"
> 
> Second amendment aside; can anyone provide an example of when a hand gun was useful at a test or trial?


Let me answer your question with another question. Are you aware of any instance when the carrying of a hand gun was harmful at a test or trial?

It would be VASTLY more likely that a human or dog would be harmed by a careless driver than by a gun.

(-:


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

We (collectively speaking) are supposedly gun advocates. We own and use guns on a regular basis.

After reading this thread it's no wonder there is such a debate about guns in this country.



Divide and conquer regards........

Randy


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba doesn't carry a sidearm but he does judge wearing this....










/Paul


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Rnd said:


> We (collectively speaking) are supposedly gun advocates. We own and use guns on a regular basis.
> 
> After reading this thread it's no wonder there is such a debate about guns in this country.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what some are trying to do...I have met people that just the sight of a gun sent them into a fear almost panic mode...All we have to do is look at the results of Chicago's attempt to regulate guns to see that legislation doesn't work...If I was judging in snake country like some have mentioned ..Please bring one and protect me ....OR ...give me a shot gun ..can't hit squat with a pistol...Steve S


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Woofer said:


> I am TOTALLY in favor of CCW but while I agree that "the judges have no authority to override that."...that is only because there appear to be no rules about packing during Tests. But the rulemakers COULD promulgate such a rule and then, state law would have nothing to do with it.
> 
> You can't wear camo at a Hunt Test...or even carry an exposed leash to the line etc., so they can make any rules they want.
> 
> ...


they can make a rule but what would it mean? You plan to search everyone in the holding blind? 
Actually in Florida your rule would violate state law. Only the state can make law regarding cc. We have been through similar in the state with counties and private businesses wanting to not allow guns. You can post signs and make "rules" but they mean nothing as far as law goes. The only places I cannot carry are specified by the state. I could be dropped for breaking the rule, but that would take us back to my second sentence, are they going to pat everyone down? I have run hundreds of test while carrying and nobody other than me has known. 

BTW - what venue does not allow you to wear camo? 
.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I used to be a very poor pistol shot. I almost didn't get to go to RVN a second time because I did so poorly on the 45 qualification range. Yea, right. But then I joined the Cowboy Action shooting sport and became an excellant pistol shot. It takes a realization that the sight picture is different for a pistol. I got where I could hit swinging pendulums (sp?) and also hit various other moving targets and do so with speed.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Rnd said:


> We (collectively speaking) are supposedly gun advocates. We own and use guns on a regular basis.
> 
> After reading this thread it's no wonder there is such a debate about guns in this country.
> 
> ...



I don't think it is that so much as most never gave it much thought. I was a cop for 30 plus years and carrying a off duty weapon was part of the job. When I judged or ran my dogs that was the least thing i thought about or looked for if someone were armed. Now CCW in all states but my home state ,Illinois, allows Legal CCW. I think when it becomes part of the person, rather then an oddity no one will think twice about it. The part I do agree with as a private citizen and a retired law enforcement officer, become very proficient in what you carry and carry it 100 percent of the time where it is legal. If you can't then don't have the burden of liability over your head and trust me it is one hell of liability if you use deadly force and don't carry it. Lets all talk about dogs.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

blind ambition said:


> This is an astounding thread, I am reminded of a popular turn of phrase we used at the height of a wave of violence in hockey. I'll paraphrase it to suit this situation:
> What would you do if you turned up at a fire fight ....and a Hunt Test broke out?!"
> 
> Second amendment aside; can anyone provide an example of when a hand gun was useful at a test or trial?


Perhaps the stupidest comparison I have ever read! Really? Is there a wave of violence going on at hunt test? I must have missed all the fist fights and shooting. 
Why would you give a fat rats ass if someone is carrying a concealed weapon? Since CC is legal, why don't you point out ONE instance were a licensed carry was a problem at a test or trial. 
Most who carry have made the commitment to do so at all times. The only time I am not is when I am at home. If I get up in the morning and know I am going to a fire fight, I am not going to go. Since I don't have the luxury of knowing when I may need to defend myself (and I hope I never do) I carry every time I walk out the door. Chances are I will never need my gun anywhere I go, but if I do I will have it. 
Pull your panties out a bit so you can breath and stop being scared of us law abiding citizens. Our big bad guns are not going to hurt you and you will never know who we are anyway.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I used to be a very poor pistol shot. I almost didn't get to go to RVN a second time because I did so poorly on the 45 qualification range. Yea, right. But then I joined the Cowboy Action shooting sport and became an excellant pistol shot. It takes a realization that the sight picture is different for a pistol. I got where I could hit swinging pendulums (sp?) and also hit various other moving targets and do so with speed.


A little off topic but like you were I am a terrible pistol shot. Not to brag but I have always been very good with rifle and shotgun, do a lot of hunting with both, but I never owned or used a pistol until I moved to Montana. Shortly after arriving here I bought a S&W Model 66 .357 for me and a little hammerless S&W 38 for Cheryl and signed us both up for a pistol defense course. It was a fantastic course and we learned a lot, but I never shot well with that revolver. I shot better with my buddy's 1911 Colt. To this day I am a pretty bad pistol shot, maybe I sould get into cowboy action shooting.


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I used to be a very poor pistol shot. I almost didn't get to go to RVN a second time because I did so poorly on the 45 qualification range. Yea, right. But then I joined the Cowboy Action shooting sport and became an excellant pistol shot. It takes a realization that the sight picture is different for a pistol. I got where I could hit swinging pendulums (sp?) and also hit various other moving targets and do so with speed.


Ok Wayne I know you Cowboy Action shooters all make up bad a$$ western nick names for yourselves. Fess up - what's yours.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I shot better with my buddy's 1911 Colt.


One of the best designed guns ever.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Criquetpas said:


> I don't think it is that so much as most never gave it much thought. I was a cop for 30 plus years and carrying a off duty weapon was part of the job. When I judged or ran my dogs that was the least thing i thought about or looked for if someone were armed. Now CCW in all states but my home state ,Illinois, allows Legal CCW. I think when it becomes part of the person, rather then an oddity no one will think twice about it. The part I do agree with as a private citizen and a retired law enforcement officer, become very proficient in what you carry and carry it 100 percent of the time where it is legal. If you can't then don't have the burden of liability over your head and trust me it is one hell of liability if you use deadly force and don't carry it. Lets all talk about dogs.


Earl,
I'm in your camp. I have several friends that are/were in law enforcement. I personally do not carry. Just for the reason you cite,the burden of liability. That's on me, my choice. I do find comfort in the fact that my fellow law abiding citizens do choose to carry.

My point in that post, is we need to come together as a group to protect and keep our rights.....

Some would think that some minor organization or sanctioning body could or should override our rights is just absurd. IMHO.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Rnd

Couldn't agree more the anti gun morons have taken the moderates like myself over the top. If we don't stick together we will surely hang separately . Our dog sports as we know them could become the next victim. 

Earl


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## Woofer (Feb 5, 2013)

badbullgator said:


> they can make a rule but what would it mean? You plan to search everyone in the holding blind?
> *Actually in Florida your rule would violate state law.* Only the state can make law regarding cc. We have been through similar in the state with counties and private businesses wanting to not allow guns. You can post signs and make "rules" but they mean nothing as far as law goes. The only places I cannot carry are specified by the state. I could be dropped for breaking the rule, but that would take us back to my second sentence, are they going to pat everyone down? I have run hundreds of test while carrying and nobody other than me has known.
> 
> BTW - what venue does not allow you to wear camo?
> .


I don't know why you're getting up in my face...I SAID I was in favor of CCW...all day long. I just made the point that any dog testing organization can make any rules they want and you are FLAT wrong that it was MY rule. I don't make rules and never suggested that I would make any such rule...I just said that an ORGANIZATION that runs dog tests can make any rules they want so long as they're not unconstitutional....and by entering the contest you AGREE to abide by the rules...there is NO state law involved.


And how would the event managers know you were carrying concealed without a search (which WOULD be illegal unless you consented to it)? Who knows...maybe a couple guys were talking about what they were packing and an official overheard it.

But it was not MY rule and I was NOT proposing it. 

And re: CAMO...I meant handlers MUST (not "can't) wear camo (or a dark color) when running dogs at AKC Hunt tests....NO white or bright colors are permitted...even though wearing white isn't against the law in Florida or any other state as far as I know.

But the fact that you didn't reserve your picky little comments for people who UNLIKE ME are against carrying at Tests.

I've only been here a short time but I see this forum is like almost all public forums have threads derailed and are FULL of petty bickering. I tried to rid myself of that sort of thing in the 4th grade but it seems that on public forums, doing so is simply impossible so this is my last post here.

I only felt obligated to put up this post because I made a brain cramp on the can't/must thing and to state for the record you got it TOTALLY BACKWARDS in referring to ANY law or rule as MY law or rule. I was just pointing out where you were WRONG which obviously got your shorts all up in a bunch.

Have fun bashing the crap out of me. I will NEVER know about it which reminds me of my favorite "road rage" strategy. Just flip the bad guy off without looking at him...denying him the opportunity to respond in kind. It drives dudes NUTS!!!!!!

(-:


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

blind ambition said:


> This is an astounding thread, I am reminded of a popular turn of phrase we used at the height of a wave of violence in hockey. I'll paraphrase it to suit this situation:
> What would you do if you turned up at a fire fight ....and a Hunt Test broke out?!"
> 
> Second amendment aside; can anyone provide an example of when a hand gun was useful at a test or trial?



When judging in south Georgia and in Florida where I have had several instances of people carrying guns came in handy. We have had rattlesnakes, moccasins, and alligators. In one case a diamond back rattlesnake was killed just 15 yards from the line. In case you want to know what a diamond back looks like, this snake was taken last month in south Georgia--imagine what damage this could do to a dog or human.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

junbe said:


> View attachment 11141
> 
> 
> 
> When judging in south Georgia and in Florida where I have had several instances of people carrying guns came in handy. We have had rattlesnakes, moccasins, and alligators. In one case a diamond back rattlesnake was killed just 15 yards from the line. In case you want to know what a diamond back looks like, this snake was taken last month in south Georgia--imagine what damage this could do to a dog or human.


That's gotta be a world record, that thing is gigantic!!!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I am a Life Member of the NRA and I've had a concealed carry permit for the last 25 years, but it has never crossed my mind to carry at a hunt test. In my truck, yes. At the hotel or anywhere else off test grounds while airing my dog, yes, etc. I have always felt extremely safe around "my people" at a hunt test. First we are not in urban areas, pretty much everyone is there for the same reason. We all know there are likely guns in every truck. If someone decided to start waving a gun around they would be badly outnumbered in short order. I have definitely observed some behavior by folks who just had their dog dropped that would have concerned me if I thought they were carrying a weapon. Also, and I know this is off topic slightly, but there is a lot of drinking at some hunt tests after the dogs are done running. If you are drinking you shouldn't be carrying a weapon. I know the OP was talking about at the line. I'm not saying I'm against it, just saying I'm a cc holder, I'm in favor of CC generally and I practice CC on a regular basis and I'm 99% sure I've never done it at all at a hunt test (maybe when I first arrived on the grounds I might have still had one on from coming from the hotel) and I know I've never brought a concealed weapon to the line. I've carried in a church before (still illegal in GA unfortunately) but not at a hunt test...is that weird?

For those talking about CC in Illinois, understand that even if you get CC there will likely be restrictions on where you can carry. Here in Georgia there have always been restrictions. It used to be that you couldn't carry (even as a CCW holder) at a "public gathering" and that was pretty tricky to define, but it included any publicly owned building, church, sporting event (shooting events excluded, not sure whether a hunt test would have qualified as a shooting event, probably not since shooting pistols isn't involved), etc. In recent years the laws in Georgia have been made clearer and simpler and the number of places we cannot carry has been reduced, but we still can't carry everywhere...gov't buildings, schools, churches being some of the places we still cannot carry. If your Illinois hunt test happens to be on state, county or city land then I would be very surprised if CC would be allowed there because if they are forced to allow CC in such an anti-gun state (governmentally speaking) they will make it as restrictive as they can possibly get away with.



Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Archery for waterfowl is perfectly legal and slugs dropped in a shot gun to take an elk that might be acting like a swamp donkey is also perfectly legal.


Federal waterfowl regulations state that no lead shot can be in your possession when waterfowl hunting. No lead shot means no lead shot. It would come down to the game warden, but the law would be against you if the game warden didn't see things your way. It has always bugged me because the early Canada Goose season in Georgia overlaps with Dove season (opening on the same day) but if you carry non-toxic shot for geese and lead #8 or #7 1/2 for doves you are breaking Federal law by having lead shot on you while waterfowl hunting. Forget that nobody in their right mind would prefer to shoot geese with #7 1/2 lead when they've got steel BB's (or BBB or T) on them. I don't see why I can't sit there with two shotguns, one loaded with lead shot for dove and another with steel shot for geese. Since you usually see or hear geese well before they are in range I would sit with the gun loaded for dove in my hands and quickly change guns if geese were approaching, but that would be a Federal violation. Check my geese for lead and if you don't find any then leave me alone!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Archery for waterfowl is perfectly legal and slugs dropped in a shot gun to take an elk that might be acting like a swamp donkey is also perfectly legal. ........??


No, it's not.
is that slug larger than "T" size? I think it is. Does the ammo for your glock have any lead?
and Happy, are ya gonna plop bown on a white bucked with an ol' Bear Recurve and tell the judges your all set?
if you wanna play the hunt test game, when your at the line pretending. Do it like you duck hunt.
if your just bagging birds and pouring coffee on judges well that is not the same

from the syllibus

No person shall take waterfowl​or coots while possessing loose shot or shot shells loaded withshot other than nontoxic shot, and then of a shot size no larger thanapproved size T.​*NONTOXIC SHOT DEFINITION.​​​​**​*Steel, bismuth-tin, tungsteniron,tungsten-polymer, tungsten-matrix, tungsten-iron-nickel, tungsten-iron-nickel-tin, tungsten-bronze, tungsten-tin-bismuth, tungsteniron-copper-nickel, tungsten-iron-polymer, and tungsten-tin-iron, asapproved by the Director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. See​50 CFR 20. Copper-plated lead shot is not nontoxic shot


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

junbe said:


> View attachment 11141
> 
> 
> 
> When judging in south Georgia and in Florida where I have had several instances of people carrying guns came in handy. We have had rattlesnakes, moccasins, and alligators. In one case a diamond back rattlesnake was killed just 15 yards from the line. In case you want to know what a diamond back looks like, this snake was taken last month in south Georgia--imagine what damage this could do to a dog or human.



Now, now, lets be clear we don't shoot alligators except during season and with a permit.  That would be illegal.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> No, it's not.
> is that slug larger than "T" size? I think it is. Does the ammo for your glock have any lead?
> and Happy, are ya gonna plop bown on a white bucked with an ol' Bear Recurve and tell the judges your all set?
> if you wanna play the hunt test game, when your at the line pretending. Do it like you duck hunt.
> ...


And shot is not the same as a bullet.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> And shot is not the same as a bullet.


like I said, I have had this chat afore
more than once. Other than the old
pocket knife score the hull of a BBB
load. I could find no way to deer hunt
and duck hunt. and have seen a person 
violated for having a .9mm tucked way down
under his chest waders at the Dead Creek WMA.
if your duck hunting you have a shotgun, plugged for 3 rounds.
that is all you have. No deer rifle, handgun, cross bow, RPG, just a shotgun.
or your wardens are not as persnickity as some.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

junbe said:


> View attachment 11141
> 
> 
> 
> When judging in south Georgia and in Florida where I have had several instances of people carrying guns came in handy. We have had rattlesnakes, moccasins, and alligators. In one case a diamond back rattlesnake was killed just 15 yards from the line. In case you want to know what a diamond back looks like, this snake was taken last month in south Georgia--imagine what damage this could do to a dog or human.


Good lord, you could cover a couch with that! I wonder how old it was. Thats as big as a Python.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

pat addis said:


> with illinois about to approve to approve cc. if you are judgeing and some one comes up packing, how do you handle it? the way i see it if you see it, they should hide it. if it is in a holster it would be different then it needs to be covered. hrc says only approved guns at the line. i can see how you handle it on private grounds but if you are on state grounds where it's ok how do you tell some one that can't carry when the supreme court says it's ok



For me, this is one of those " just because you can, doesn't mean you should" situations. Unless there is a need, snakes, gators, PETA, I see no reason to CC at the line. If it is part of your "100%" daily dress, I suppose I can understand not wanting to feel naked, I guess. 

I do carry a pistol sometimes when training at our farm, because of the skunks and muskrats and the need to dispatch them when you see them rule, but doubt I would CC at the line during a HT. 

3 Skunks and a big goose egg on the Muskats Regards


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

My understanding is a slug is a ball round. Shot is a different classification. I put a call in to my local Fish and Game Officer to ask. 

Here's an interesting article about a guy testing out open carry locally. Vancouver, WA. 

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/190321871.html


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> like I said, I have had this chat afore
> more than once. Other than the old
> pocket knife score the hull of a BBB
> load. I could find no way to deer hunt
> ...


Generally, when you are running a hunt test it is not duck season... so you better not be duck hunting either. I know the hunt tests are trying to mimic a days hunt... but, how can you be duck hunting if it's not duck season and most of the handlers probably wouldn't have a valid hunting license at that time anyway.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> like I said, I have had this chat afore
> more than once. Other than the old
> pocket knife score the hull of a BBB
> load. I could find no way to deer hunt
> ...


My pistol is always in my blind bag and has never ever been an issue. I would say maybe our wardens are just smarter than yours and understand that if I could shoot a duck out of the air with a compact .45 I would be one hell of a shot and if I shot one on the water there wouldn't enough left to eat. I have had at least 10 wardens see my gun in my bag and have never had one say anything about it. 
Boat ramps are very dangerous place around here and I never go to one without a carry. At this point my shotgun would be I the gun box and of little use to me. I don't have the time to find it but I know for a fact that there is case law about this very topic and it determined that regulations may not supersede ones right to protect themselves while traveling to and from and therefore is not illegal to have in your possession while you are involved in the activity. In Florida the same is true of workplaces that have no weapon policies, they cannot prevent you from carrying to work and leaving it in your truck. 
Fishing regulations have very common parallels. I can have tackle that is illegal to use for the species of fish I am fishing for in my tackle box and not get a violation for it unless I am actively fishing with the illegal gear. An example that is actually a federal regulation is that we are not allowed to take reef fish with anything other than circle hooks. Having "J" hooks in my tackle box or on the boat are not a violation. They are only a violation if i am caught using them. I would happily make the argument to a judge that having a self defense concealed carry gun in the bottom of my blind bag has absolutely nothing to do with hunting ducks. The rules you state are about activity hunting.

BTW- I don't carry lead in any of my carry pistols so the non-toxic shot is not an issue.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> BTW- I don't carry lead in any of my carry pistols so the non-toxic shot is not an issue.


FMJ doesn't make it non-toxic if you want to split hairs on the issue. In Washington, the past law which was changed, only prevented you from carrying a sidearm during archery activities. That is no longer due to the wolves potentially stalking archers. This was documented on our border with Idaho last year. A lady was calling elk and turned around to have a couple wolves 10 yards behind her. She unloaded her sidearm on them killing one if I remember the news report correctly. 

Due to folks wanting our wilderness to be "real wild" again with predators, you'd better be packing when you go for a picnic. Coyotes are overrunning urban areas, attacking people, kids, killing pets, Wolves are in constant day travel distance from suburban developments, Cougars have no population control due to the ban on hound hunting, black bears have become bold due to habitat loss. One City leader was nearly killed walking his two dogs on a well traveled road by a black bear just last year. We've had more black bear human attacks in Washington State since hound hunting was banned than was ever recorded in modern history. There were zero attacks prior to the hound hunting ban. 

People need to arm themselves not only from criminal protection but, now to protect us from the wildlife we've decided to re-introduce and other animals which are overpopulated. Those who want bans on guns also stand that wildlife should not be hunted. You want the Wild West, we'll have to live the same way as we did when it was unpopulated and wild. That is with a sidearm on every man who travels in areas populated by dangerous animals. (our own City of Seattle had a cougar on the run and numerous black bears this year)


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

This topic is ridicules . Sherwin Scott just passed away that should put everything else in perspective.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Wayne Nutt aka El Duque de Tejas. I beat Ace one day at a local match when he was having a bad day. Ed Seiker is out of my league. Way too good!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

moscowitz said:


> This topic is ridicules . Sherwin Scott just passed away that should put everything else in perspective.


I fail to see how the two topics are related. Two topics, two separate threads.

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

moscowitz said:


> This topic is ridicules . Sherwin Scott just passed away that should put everything else in perspective.


I don't follow Mike? Sorry about Sherwin if he was a friend of yours. Don't see how it relates to gun control and concealed carry?

Sweet picture Wayne. My buddy in Weiser, ID got into Cowboy shooting a while back. I've always wanted to try it.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

You'll never know if I am or not.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> FMJ doesn't make it non-toxic if you want to split hairs on the topic)


These work well

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/28...treme-copper-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20

But I mostly reload with these

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/components/mle-tactical-bullets/mle-tac-xp-pistol-bullets/

i think that about covers it


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

El Duque de Tejas.

Sounds like a good name for your next dog!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> These work well
> 
> http://www.midwayusa.com/product/28...treme-copper-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20
> 
> ...


Lead free...sheesh. Start calling you a tree kisser..


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Just in my 45's. I have a favorite that is a bit finicky with lead.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> Just in my 45's. I have a favorite that is a bit finicky with lead.


Had a picky eater once. None around currently. They'll spit out anything I put in front of them and come back for more. The two in the middle are for Wayne....coupla Cowboy rounds in Colt .45









In the dark, in a pocket or from behind the seat of the truck a quick shake determines the round for the intended purpose


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

When I was taking my classes and tests for my CCW permits (Utah and NV), they stressed again and again that CONCEALED means just that. You should NOT be able to see it. Not even a bulge that outlines a pistol on your back or side, etc. Otherwise, you are carrying illegally if in an area that doesn't allow open carry, CCW or not.

I could probably care less in a hunt test situation personally... But think that local laws should apply there as well, as well as AKC/NAHRA/HRC rules.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I know a couple ladies who've taken to buying handguns like they're the latest fashionable shoes. Not sure to be impressed or scared. Ones gotta 9 Glock, decided a 40 was appropriate and added a .45 to the collection cause it has a neater belt holster.  sheesh... Get out done by these show dog ladies.... lol


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## browndoggirls (Dec 5, 2009)

i am not a show dog lady but... one of each will do me fine! when i go to the range - i get to have one-on-one time with each of them! quality time!!! and my husband... he has his own!


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