# Influence Handling



## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

I am new to the forum, hope I am not posting an old chewed up subject. 

*I am interested in finding out if anyone uses* Mike Gould's & Dan Watson's influence handling technique's on their pups? 

Dan, my son, worked with Mike Gould through the 80's & 90's and he appears in some of Mikes book's. Recently I got to watch Dan do some of his influence handling and was impressed on how the technique's worked. 

OK, I am his Old Man so I am a little proud of the guy, but setting that aside the system works if you have several pups the same age to train. Dan usually trains the whole litter. He starts them at 12 weeks. 

*Does anybody out there use these handling techniques? *

I have been posting short sample videos that show Dan with some 8 month old pups, the pups have not had any obedience training. The first video shows Dan walking with the pups. Scroll down in the reply's there is a second video showing how the pups work as individuals. 

It's kind of hard to explain but the only word Dan uses in the field for the first 6 months is 'Hup" when he moves to birds he includes "Dead". When I trained French Brittany's I had a whole repartee along with a bunch of expletives.

Here is a link to a video that shows a pup being controled by handler movements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqVG6n1e6H0


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Never heard of this fellow Dan Watson. Someone mentioned the other fellow on the forum a couples days ago.
Not sure this program would be helpful to me. Not being a stick in the mud either. But I like my puppies to be well versed with several commands by 6 months. They also do a puppy obed class and puppy agility class by 6m.We visit nursing homes after their shots and go all sorts of places with them to socialize.??? Hup ??? IMHO


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Having googled Mike Goild I am pretty confident that very few here are able to telepathically handle their dogs which is how I read his description of handling. I am always hesitant to believe or follow Anyone who's bio includes "Worlds Greatest".
Ringling Bros Regards


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Raymond Little said:


> Having googled Mike Goild I am pretty confident that very few here are able to telepathically handle their dogs which is how I read his description of handling. I am always hesitant to believe or follow Anyone who's bio includes "Worlds Greatest".
> Ringling Bros Regards



I Googled Mike Goild also but could not find anything about "Worlds Greatest" is he a dog trainer?


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm pretty much a renowned expert on "Under the influence Handling" and offer a seminar called "Drunkworks" at a low low introductory price.

Sobriety is for those that can't handle regards

Bubba


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Must be a dairy farm near by. 
I would certainly have an 8 month old pup doing a lot more than that.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Steve Shaver said:


> Must be a dairy farm near by.
> I would certainly have an 8 month old pup doing a lot more than that.


What I am trying to find out is, Does anyone know of this type handling?


They do more than that, below is a link to a simple video, it isn't much of a video I only had a few hours.


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## Donald Hatfield (Mar 22, 2005)

Bubba said:


> I'm pretty much a renowned expert on "Under the influence Handling" and offer a seminar called "Drunkworks" at a low low introductory price.
> 
> Sobriety is for those that can't handle regards
> 
> Bubba



I am with ya Bubba...lol


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Well, your son sure seems to 
enjoy spending time with those puppies.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

dtvm7469 said:


> What I am trying to find out is, Does anyone know of this type handling?
> 
> 
> They do more than that, below is a link to a simple video, it isn't much of a video I only had a few hours.







I personally don't understand what this type of handling is supposed to achieve. I think a dog at 8 months old certainly should have obedience down pretty well. I would no way ever throw a pigeon and let 2 dogs retrieve it together nor would I just throw bumpers and let 3 or 4 dogs compete for it. I see absolutely no discipline or team work in this type of handling and I don't agree with it. Looks more like stuff a pointer guy might do rather than retriever training.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Steve Shaver said:


> I personally don't understand what this type of handling is supposed to achieve. I think a dog at 8 months old certainly should have obedience down pretty well. I would no way ever throw a pigeon and let 2 dogs retrieve it together nor would I just throw bumpers and let 3 or 4 dogs compete for it. I see absolutely no discipline or team work in this type of handling and I don't agree with it. *Looks more like stuff a pointer guy might do rather than retriever training.*


The embolden above is the truth. Traditional retriever trainers interested in field trials, HT's, and waterfowl hunting will probably have little appreciation for or use for such methods. However, as an upland hunter I understand the concept. I've read Mike Gould's book _The Labrador Shooting Dog; Training the Labrador Retriever as an All-Around Sporting Dog_ and appreciated it. Another favorite is Ben O. William's book _Bird Dog_, which is about training upland pointing dogs.

I take my dogs to the woods and fields with me as I work as a professional forester. No leads, no e-collar, just my voice and my "influence". We form a partnership and become teammates. It doesn't prepare a dog for the rigors of traditional competition, but goes a long way toward working together in the upland field.

Swack


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Swack said:


> The embolden above is the truth. Traditional retriever trainers interested in field trials, HT's, and waterfowl hunting will probably have little appreciation for or use for such methods. However, as an upland hunter I understand the concept. I've read Mike Gould's book _The Labrador Shooting Dog; Training the Labrador Retriever as an All-Around Sporting Dog_ and appreciated it. Another favorite is Ben O. William's book _Bird Dog_, which is about training upland pointing dogs.
> 
> I take my dogs to the woods and fields with me as I work as a professional forester. No leads, no e-collar, just my voice and my "influence". We form a partnership and become teammates. It doesn't prepare a dog for the rigors of traditional competition, but goes a long way toward working together in the upland field.
> 
> Swack


Plus hunting wild birds, the less noise you and your dog makes the better...that is a big plus in influence training for upland hunting wild birds.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*A little about how influence handling works*

*1. Why,

*In the 80's and 90's there where several shooting preserves starting up in the west. The preserves needed a supply of trained gundogs of all the major hunting breeds. At that time Mike Gould was in charge of the kennel and hunting operations at the Flying B Ranch located in central Idaho. Mike understood that his system of handling would help develop started pups ready for obedience and field work with fewer washouts than the traditional chain gang one on one system. Dan Watson was tasked with doing the handling. Here is how Mike rates my son:

_I'm writing this as a personal reference for Danny Watson. Danny worked for me as a shooting dog trainer and hunting guide and also went on the road with me working dogs in the Colorado and Idaho high country._

_Over the past 44 years I've seen many young aspiring trainers come and go. Danny was the best of the lot. He has a very natural style and always took everything I said to heart. He's truly one of the good ones. I featured him in two of my books, The Labrador Shooting Dog, and Plateaus of Destiny. He was also in several of the videos we shot for the Outdoor Channel on TV._
_Danny is the consummate outdoorsman in many ways, and certainly has the knowledge to bring any shooting dog, of any breed, to the top of his game._

_Mike Gould_
_Grand River_
_August 4th, 2014_

*2. In a nut shell, How.*

Using the dogs natural pack instinct the handler exposes the pups "_as many as 22 at once"_ to different environments several times a day. These environments gradually get more extreme. 

During these exercises the pack bonds with its handler, the handler controls the packs distance and direction by body movement and one word Hup, "means look at me" 

The "training" is done by the bold puppies showing the timid puppies how to do it. Everything from, noise, retrieving , guns, birds, water, cover, crowds, parking lots, what ever.

The pups you see in this video have had only two trigger words spoken to them in 8 months, "Hup" and "Dead" _"Except when Dan's brain slips into obedience mode"_

Obedience is done after the influence handling is over. Some owners want to do their own obedience training based on their needs and hunting environment, trainers like the handled pups because the can finish them quickly.

*Once again the only reason I started this thread is to find out if any other handlers or trainers use this system to start their litters?*


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

You almost describe it as a way to mass produce passable dogs for pen raised birds and clients who dont have dogs themselves... But surely that wasn't your intent.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

dtvm7469 said:


> *Once again the only reason I started this thread is to find out if any other handlers or trainers use this system to start their litters?*


As Swack's suggested, something similar is quite common in the pointing dog world, with the object being to condition the dog to take responsibility for keeping track of his handler and stay to his fore and sides. After a time, it at least seems that the dog is anticipating the handler's moves, and he likely often is. Though I got my start in what Gould calls "influence training" bringing on pointing dogs, I've done essentially the same with my last couple retriever pups as a means of encouraging independent search.

At the time I read Gould's book, I was doing a good bit of work with cattle and, through trial and error and paying attention, bumbled into a system of spacial influence that would allow me to walk even the most rank animal into a pen, as if I controlled a powerful physical link between us. So, naturally, Gould had my attention when he said he could control a distant coyote's movements with his "influence," and we became correspondents, and I thought friends, for a time. (Was even kind enough to give me a copy of the Plateaus of Destiny book you've mentioned.) But I never could pin him down on his use of influence beyond the type I was familiar with from pointing dogs. And he apparently tired of my trying and acted as if it were a betrayal of our friendship.

Aside from that, I found his an interesting voice that, like some others that are railed here, probably would have enjoyed a greater audience and influence had he not been so dead set on pitting his perspective against the mainstream's. It's good to hear that he's alive and, hopefully, well.


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## MBellow74 (Jun 19, 2014)

I've seen this type of handling done personally by a trainer in Arizona named randy. He works with gsp's and would only use a couple of commands. The dogs worked in a pack and would follow by his movement. It's amazing to see a group of 30 dogs all work together. I wouldn't try it with labs but it seems to work in the upland world.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

Bubba said:


> I'm pretty much a renowned expert on "Under the influence Handling" and offer a seminar called "Drunkworks" at a low low introductory price.
> 
> Sobriety is for those that can't handle regards
> 
> Bubba




Nasal iced-tea spray on my keyboard now!!!! Thanks!!!!:grin::mrgreen:


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

Temple Grandin speaks of something similar to "influence" in handling cattle.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*Establishing a foundation*



jhnnythndr said:


> You almost describe it as a way to mass produce passable dogs for pen raised birds and clients who dont have dogs themselves... But surely that wasn't your intent.


The videos an my comments here are a feeble way of trying to explain the building of a foundation that all other training can be based on, field or trial.

By using pack peer pressure to get the pups to a point where the handler, with the least amount of human interaction, can evaluate each pups true inherent abilities +/-. 

Most traditional training programs are fundamentally based on this same principle but, they do it one pup at a time with much human interaction. Which can sometimes cloud the evaluation. 

The breeders like this system because they can get quick feed back on how their breeding program is working. 

As far as birds go, Dan said, Use whatever it takes to get the true inherent prey drive established then add a 100 more for fun




.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

dtvm7469 said:


> The videos an my comments here are a feeble way of trying to explain the building of a foundation that all other training can be based on, field or trial.


Was the thread title "Influence _*peddling?*_" - 'cause really you ain't explaining much of anything, but you're huckstering a h*lluva lot. 

"A foundation that all other training can be based on, field or trial" - that's a stretch that surpasses the Snake River Canyon when it comes to retrievers, old buddy.

MG


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Bubba said:


> I'm pretty much a renowned expert on "Under the influence Handling" and offer a seminar called "Drunkworks" at a low low introductory price.
> 
> Sobriety is for those that can't handle regards
> 
> Bubba


Drunkworks is already part of our training groups upcoming DVD collections program name. I guess we need to copywrite the complete name before it gets used somewhere else!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

There's a train of thought which is called "ten cent thinking". That's when your "pair a dimes" are too close together. 

I really don't think anyone was trying to sell anything. Take a walk with a little pup. Keep your mouth shut and just go. With an open mind a person may discover a glimpse of physical influence (or not).


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm probably something I'd do with 6-8wk old pups perhaps longer up til 4mt; before they go home or start formal training. Only I'd want them out in the field not following me. Nothing wrong with getting pups some courage in the field, prior to formal training. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be learning here and sit along side it though. That sort've thing pretty much stops @ 6mt when formal retriever training begins, picks back up with the first upland season, but they'd better know, Here, casting and whistle sit to flush by then, otherwise they ain't hunting with me .

It is well known a stiff drink will always aid in Courage training; Drunken-Works regards


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## rfinger (Feb 17, 2009)

Why do we want to bash a successful trainer, just because we don't understand or agree with his methods.
I wonder if Rex Carr was viewed the same way 40 years ago. Mike does not run or train for HT or FT's
But he has cut his teeth doing gundogs. Many of the dogs he got in were dogs that were broke down by other trainers.
Or Amateur's that thought they needed a E color and knew nothing about it. Mike trains dog to do what they were bread to do
"Hunt and Retrieve Birds" They run the wide open country with little or no pressure. His dogs don't spin, they don't pop, they don't freeze on birds, 
and don't have no go's. We play a game and we train our dogs to play the game. If we did a break down on our success rate of dogs in our game! 
We might be ashamed of ourselves. If you take the time to read Charles Morgan's book. There was a reference, to taking a dog that won the National out hunting.
And the friends were less then impressed with this newly crowned Champion. The comment was made "You don't take the Kentucky Derby winner out for a joy ride
either." We love this game and we love our dogs. But in 35 plus years of dogs and hunting, Only one time did I ever have to do a poison bird blind and less then a handful of birds retrieved from more then 100 yards
I respect Mike and his program and use a good deal of it in my training,
If I was a pro and had clients that wanted results such as Dogs on the derby list by 12 months or running all age stakes by the time their 2. This program may not be workable.
But If I own one or two dogs and enjoy training them on my schedule, and know I will have these dogs for all of their lives. Who cares If it takes me longer.
Lets give the man credit. He is successful and should be credited for that.


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## trout bum (Aug 3, 2005)

Well said Rick, it's amazing how quickly the masses pass judgement..


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

rfinger said:


> Why d we want to bash a successful trainer, just because we don't understand or agree with his methods.
> I wonder if Rex Carr was viewed the same way 40 years ago. Mike does not run or train for HT or FT's
> But he has cut his teeth doing gundogs. Many of the dogs he got in were dogs that were broke down by other trainers.
> Or Amateur's that thought they needed a E color and knew nothing about it. Mike trains dog to do what they were bread to do
> ...





Not bashing anyone just not impressed . Are we not allowed to disagree? Hell I watch the Lardy or Farmer videos and see stuff tha they do wrong. 
Just because I train my dogs to trial doesnt mean they cant hunt. A well educated dog that has never hunted still has plenty to learn when he hits the swamp just like a college educated kid has much to learn out in the real world but he has a great head start. I find it amazing that guys that dont know much about advanced training will turn something like this into a gun dog vs competition dog thing because someone doesnt agree with their methods.
I have no problem with this method just dont agree with it and think dogs are capable of soooo much more. In Ut there is not much upland game to hunt so I dont train much for it. A waterfowl or competition dog need a much higher level of dicipline. A waterfowl or competing dog needs to be more of a team player and an upland dog needs to be a little more self employed. The later I believe needs much less training. I actually think the best way to teach a well trained retriever to hunt upland is to take him hunting. A smart retriever that has been taught dicipline and teamwork will pick up upland hunting pretty quick. If your going to walk back and forth in a field with your dog you might as well be kicking up and shooting wild birds.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

By keeping an open mind...the knowledge gain is endless. Just saying.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

dtvm7469 said:


> What I am trying to find out is, Does anyone know of this type handling?
> 
> 
> They do more than that, below is a link to a simple video, it isn't much of a video I only had a few hours.


Interesting video but I am not sure what this accomplishes. Looks like you had fun? If I allowed my pup to do that everyday and called this training it would be a pretty interesting outcome. He would like it.


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

" If your going to walk back and forth in a field with your dog you might as well be kicking up and shooting wild birds." Now that is funny right there, I don't care who you are ! This thread is a throwback to better days.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

One mans trash is another mans treasure.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Steve Shaver said:


> Not bashing anyone just not impressed . Are we not allowed to disagree? Hell I watch the Lardy or Farmer videos and see stuff tha they do wrong.
> Just because I train my dogs to trial doesnt mean they cant hunt. A well educated dog that has never hunted still has plenty to learn when he hits the swamp just like a college educated kid has much to learn out in the real world but he has a great head start. I find it amazing that guys that dont know much about advanced training will turn something like this into a gun dog vs competition dog thing because someone doesnt agree with their methods.
> I have no problem with this method just dont agree with it and think dogs are capable of soooo much more. In Ut there is not much upland game to hunt so I dont train much for it.* A waterfowl or competition dog need a much higher level of dicipline. A waterfowl or competing dog needs to be more of a team player and an upland dog needs to be a little more self employed. The later I believe needs much less training. *I actually think the best way to teach a well trained retriever to hunt upland is to take him hunting. *A smart retriever that has been taught dicipline and teamwork will pick up upland hunting pretty quick.* If your going to walk back and forth in a field with your dog you might as well be kicking up and shooting wild birds.


Steve,

I'm in partial agreement with you. The dog work on the videos wasn't very impressive. Most decent Labs could do those things with little training. I chalk it up to "Different Strokes for Different Folks". If it meets the needs and expectations of the trainer who am I to complain?

However, there's room for debate about portions of your post I've emboldened. A waterfowl dog can be tethered to the dog box in the blind and be released to retrieve a belly-up duck 20 yards in front of the blind. How much discipline and teamwork does that take? And any "smart retriever" can bump some birds out of the cover for his handler to shoot. No special skills required for that. _But_, I think you probably expect a lot more from your waterfowl dog than an unsteady dog that can only retrieve easy marks in front of the blind and many dedicated upland hunters require more from their dogs than a self-employed k-9 who happens to bump a few birds up in gun-range.

One difference in the two venues is that the skills of a well trained disciplined waterfowl or competition retriever are obvious to see. In competition the marking, lining, and handlings skills are almost a spectator sport given a good viewing position for the gallery. However, a highly skilled and talented upland dog's skills are not as obvious, especially to those who haven't spent much time afield hunting wild birds. Upland handling cues are much more subtle. Rather than 100 decibel whistle blasts and overt hand signals they are often nearly imperceptible body language such as a slight head tilt or a subdued hand motion. It often appears as if nothing has happened at all between the handler and the dog. The better the teamwork between the handler and his dog the easier they will make the job look. Also, the view of the skills a dog uses to follow a scant trail of scent is often screened from view by dense cover, only able to be read by a skilled observer who can decipher the meaning of the wave moving through the grass and the tenor of the sounds that emit from the cattails. And only those who are willing to sign up for miles of busting through cover and slogging through mud have the opportunity to witness the feats of brilliance a great upland retriever is capable of demonstrating. Perhaps to the uninitiated upland hunting with a retriever is simple, but from my perspective there is no better example of teamwork and discipline in the retriever world than the upland dance between a hunter and his dog as they unravel the trail of a wily rooster who is playing for keeps on his home field.

Swack


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*Better Explained Video*



Hunt'EmUp said:


> Hmm probably something I'd do with 6-8wk old pups perhaps longer up til 4mt; before they go home or start formal training. Only I'd want them out in the field not following me. Nothing wrong with getting pups some courage in the field, prior to formal training. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be learning here and sit along side it though. That sort've thing pretty much stops @ 6mt when formal retriever training begins, picks back up with the first upland season, but they'd better know, Here, casting and whistle sit to flush by then, otherwise they ain't hunting with me .
> 
> It is well known a stiff drink will always aid in Courage training; Drunken-Works regards


I think we are on the same page kind of. Just the numbers are a little different. I have a hard time trying to get whats in my head into these comments so people can understand.

The first video in the thread shows how the pups are keyed in on the handler and his moves. The second video, comment #7, shows the pups one on one with the handler. The setup for the second video was with planted pigeons. That video is meant to show their development the pups have had about 4 months of handling, not exactly sure how many birds they have seen.

*What I find interesting is that these pups have reached this point by only hearing two words, "Hup and Dead".* _Except when boy wonder mess's up, _ No, heel, sit, stay, fetch, etc.

The next step is to start obedience training. He does the obedience training based on the new owners wants and needs. He uses a piece of pipe with a rope in it to do the traditional obedience work. The whistle and hand signals come as requested. He says that the obedience training is quick because all the *basic* bird and field work has been started. Along with Obedience comes wild birds. *Mid October he sells them as Started dogs not finished Dogs I believe these dogs are all sold*.

Hope this better explains my thoughts. Thanks for your patients.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"It often appears as if nothing has happened at all between the handler and the dog. The better the teamwork between the handler and his dog the easier they will make the job look. Also, the view of the skills a dog uses to follow a scant trail of scent is often screened from view by dense cover, only able to be read by a skilled observer who can decipher the meaning of the wave moving through the grass and the tenor of the sounds that emit from the cattails. And only those who are willing to sign up for miles of busting through cover and slogging through mud have the opportunity to witness the feats of brilliance a great upland retriever is capable of demonstrating. Perhaps to the uninitiated upland hunting with a retriever is simple, but from my perspective there is no better example of teamwork and discipline in the retriever world than the upland dance between a hunter and his dog as they unravel the trail of a wily rooster who is playing for keeps on his home field."_

Swack, very nicely stated. 

The "rules" are different and it is very difficult to train for the free vs. under control "mental switch". Some say training for both diminishes each. For example and in a simplistic view, field trial bird dog trainers refrain from using too much control "cause you can't win with a dog that is looking for direction" vs. the field trial retriever trainers that know they can't win with a dog that does not understand rules/expectations and often "plays" by following direction. 

Being free vs. under control are contrary mindsets. It isn't any wonder there are strong opinions on training ideas between both disciplines. However, there are areas which apply in either venue. The source often interferes with being open minded.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> _
> Being free vs. under control are contrary mindsets. It isn't any wonder there are strong opinions on training ideas between both disciplines. However, there areas which apply in either venue. The source often interferes with being open minded._


_

I will admit that in my younger dogs who have had primarily retriever training, upland skills have suffered compared to my older dog who was trained upland hunting first. They were too young to upland hunt last season, but I wish I had done more nose and tracking with them earlier. I'm hoping to turn that around this season, with a bunch of wild birds. At least I have my older dog to help catch them up. She was a spring pup; old enough to hunt upland her first fall, her upland skills have always been excellent. My older dog, took to the retriever game pretty well, but does have an independent streak that comes out at particular inopportune times. I think a balance can be achieved between both skill sets, but I haven't yet figured that balance. I need more of an upland dog, so we'll have to see how the late comers develop this season, they might not be seeing anymore retriever tests for awhile._


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*What's the point?*

Question:

How do you control a 6 month old gundog pup's range without using any collars or training aids or making any sound , no talking, whistling, arm or head gestures?

Sometime back I would of said "It can't be done".

In this influence handling thread I have been reading comments from all sorts of opinions, positive, negative or indifferent, even huckster. This forum stuff is really cool and I believe there is some form truth in all of the comments, especially the beer drinking ones. I have done several searches on the subject but found no references to it. I have been trying to figure out how to write something that would help the readers understand why I started this thread. My original inquiry was *" Does anybody know if there are trainers that use these techniques."* My son uses them but I had never really seen him do it until a short time ago when I made the videos. I have hobby trained some gundogs using the old school methods hell, we didn't even start to train until the pup was 6 months old. 

I know the dogs in the videos have some rough edges and they diffidently don't have a pedigree, Dan's nephew had a 50/50 Lab-Chesapeake next to a 100% Lab bitch. Talk about certain influences. He didn't climb it but they didn't bury the fence deep enough. 12 pups

What influences me the most is that these pups have experienced noise, they have been shot over, they retriever, they come, they take direction, the stop, they hunt dead, they stay within range, they load and unload. All of that with 2 words and those words are not given until the pups are at about 4 months. The video only shows 4 dogs but there where 12 in this litter, Dan has handled as many as 22. At times he will handle pointers and retrievers at the same time.

*For one trainer to bring 22 pups to this level ready for Obedience and finish bird and retriever training in 6 months with no training aids and only 2 words.*

I am not here to brag up my son I don't have to, he is honestly one that lets his actions speak louder than words. He seldom speaks unless spoken to first. Probably because I was always yapping. He doesn't have much of a web presence and his phone is not listed. 

But i do think the *system* is worth talking about.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

dtvm7469 said:


> Question:
> 
> How do you control a 6 month old gundog pup's range without using any collars or training aids or making any sound , no talking, whistling, arm or head gestures?
> 
> ...


Here's the problem. I doubt if many Lab breeders here keep a whole litter to train. Also, the pups they train are typically being prepared for standard retriever work in HT's or FT's or waterfowl work. The "instinctive" work your son does is counter to the programs they follow which rely on control and are organized in a systematic progression of drills which are designed to prepare the dog for his role as a standard "non-slip" retriever. 

I'm not saying your son's methods have no merit. Just that they are not in the mainstream of retriever training. I train in what most would consider a somewhat non-conventional way. No e-collar, no program, out in the woods and fields with my dogs under nothing but voice control as I work. I'm not aiming for a FC of even a MH. Those skills don't translate well to the upland work I love. 

I currently have 4 pups here in training from my 2014 litter. They're 14 weeks old today. I'll keep one, 2 are sold but here for beginning training, and one yellow male left to sell. All are going on "nature hikes" to learn the ways of the wild. They're also getting retrieves and basic OB. They're doing well. I use more than 2 words. They know several commands and are coming along well in their training. I believe these early weeks are of the greatest value to start a pup on his way to learning. In addition to paying attention to me and following me in the field I want them to be a willing enthusiastic member of the team. I'm not sure that two words could convey all of the behaviors I think they should know by the age of 6 months. But I am a verbose guy!

Swack


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Swack said:


> Steve,
> 
> I'm in partial agreement with you. The dog work on the videos wasn't very impressive. Most decent Labs could do those things with little training. I chalk it up to "Different Strokes for Different Folks". If it meets the needs and expectations of the trainer who am I to complain?
> 
> ...









I agree with you Jeff.
I don't mean to discount the team work needed to hunt upland. My point is that a dog trained to be a good waterfowl or competition dog will easily learn the ropes on upland on the job. 
A good example. I recently trained a 4yr old dog that had primarily been an upland hunting dog. Owner wanted him to be taught to handle and run HT. For quite some time on marks that dog would end up 70 to 80 yards out of the area of the fall hunting for the bird. It took a *LOT* of work to get him to stay in the area. Failed his first 2 senior test because of it. Finally got him marking well and passed his next 4 for the title.
Now to compare. My personal 4 yr old trial dog that had finished a couple opens went pheasant hunting for the first time. Never hunted period, she was just a trial dog. I had other dogs I hunted with. At first had a little trouble getting her to get out and hunt, she wanted to heel, but after a bit she started to get the idea. She did a great job for her first time. Stayed in range and always kept track of where I was and stayed on my path. She wasn't quite sure what we were doing until she found her first bird and to my surprise she even pointed and held it till I kicked up the bird. After that she knew what the game was. Wasn't perfect but adapted much better than my first example.
I have also seen dogs that have hunted a lot of upland put their nose to the ground and somewhat quarter all the way to a mark and fade with the wind to find the bird. It's a hard habit to break if your trying to teach the dog to mark.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

UOTE]
*For one trainer to bring 22 pups to this level ready for Obedience and finish bird and retriever training in 6 months with no training aids and only 2 words.
[/QUOTE]

In another post you wrote it took 42 months for a finished dog. Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean. 

All good trainers will use :influential techniques. some more than others and usually until their next phase of advancement.

What would also help to explain what you mean is seeing a finished product. Also the topic of selling gun dogs. Thats always a tough one

There re some people who could buy a FC and have difficulty picking up a duck while hunting because they are such poor handlers. and will never take the time to learn how to operate the dog.

How does a dog that is trained mostly with influence respond to a new person who knows absolutely nothing about influence. Since influence is such a big part of the art of" how influencing..

I also think the system is worth talking about ,,,,but you need to understand it,,, if you are going to talk about it,,, or it will seem like mumbo jumbo. You need to explain what your son is trying to accomplish in that water video then break it down in specifics so people can assimilate what your talking about and what they are seeing. Influenting dogs generally go sight unseen.

Thanks 
Pete*


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Pete said:


> UOTE]
> *For one trainer to bring 22 pups to this level ready for Obedience and finish bird and retriever training in 6 months with no training aids and only 2 words.
> *


*

In another post you wrote it took 42 months for a finished dog. Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean. 

All good trainers will use :influential techniques. some more than others and usually until their next phase of advancement.

What would also help to explain what you mean is seeing a finished product. Also the topic of selling gun dogs. Thats always a tough one

There re some people who could buy a FC and have difficulty picking up a duck while hunting because they are such poor handlers. and will never take the time to learn how to operate the dog.

How does a dog that is trained mostly with influence respond to a new person who knows absolutely nothing about influence. Since influence is such a big part of the art of" how influencing..

I also think the system is worth talking about ,,,,but you need to understand it,,, if you are going to talk about it,,, or it will seem like mumbo jumbo. You need to explain what your son is trying to accomplish in that water video then break it down in specifics so people can assimilate what your talking about and what they are seeing. Influenting dogs generally go sight unseen.

Thanks 
Pete*[/QUOTE]





Good point Pete.
I think the method has merit but going through all that up to 8 or 9 months and no obedience to me is like putting the cart before the horse.
One thing I saw that I *REALLY *didn't like was throwing a pigeon and letting two dogs both go after it. Although those two dogs seemed to be gentle with the bird I don't like the idea of 2 or more dogs competing for the same bird. I have seen nothing but trouble come out of that.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

dtvm7469 said:


> Question:
> 
> How do you control a 6 month old gundog pup's range without using any collars or training aids or making any sound , no talking, whistling, arm or head gestures?
> 
> ...





The part I colored red is impressive and I like the idea but to me if you can do all that with just two words just think what could be done with more. I just think there is a lot missing here.
I have never heard of influence handling before but as Pete mentioned I think we all do it to one point or another without really knowing it. In fact this thread has given me much food for thought on the idea and makes me realize how much my movements and body language *influence* the dog in my more main stream training methods and I will probably be more aware of it in my training from now on.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I will admit that in my younger dogs who have had primarily retriever training, upland skills have suffered compared to my older dog who was trained upland hunting first. They were too young to upland hunt last season, but I wish I had done more nose and tracking with them earlier. I'm hoping to turn that around this season, with a bunch of wild birds. At least I have my older dog to help catch them up. She was a spring pup; old enough to hunt upland her first fall, her upland skills have always been excellent. My older dog, took to the retriever game pretty well, but does have an independent streak that comes out at particular inopportune times. I think a balance can be achieved between both skill sets, but I haven't yet figured that balance. I need more of an upland dog, so we'll have to see how the late comers develop this season, they might not be seeing anymore retriever tests for awhile.



My dog definitely has issues that are the direct result of grouse opening in August. She was born December 25. She was 8 months old and already a proficient marker- so I had none of the marking problems develop that the other guy mentioned- but we left off at FTP to go hunting for the rest of the year... Until It got too cold for a puppy to duck hunt by which time ak is pretty well snowed in- so T waited until the spring- and trying to get that dog to run sideways in a straight line - even now at almost 4 is tough. She lines well and angles back real nicely, but overs its nose down and hunting. She's fast too so I get us into "over" situations with more frequency than any man should. Guess where it's not an issue. Water. She only knows the way she's been taught there. I think I'll be holding back competitve dogs from now on until at least they have really solid basics, and even then it'll be case by case. A knucklehea might not get to hunt for himself until he's 3... And then of course there'll be the learning curve, but a dog that loves birds will figure out how to get them with you. 

Was it Bubba who said its a hell of a lot easier to teach an NFC to hunt than it is to teach 90% of the dogs in the marsh, and lets extend that to the upland, to NFC.


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## trout bum (Aug 3, 2005)

"Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean."

I think you fellows need to go back and read what he posted. He said they were ready to finish, retriever training and obedience.....started dogs ready for the next step, not finished.....big difference.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

trout bum said:


> "Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean."
> 
> I think you fellows need to go back and read what he posted. He said they were ready to finish, retriever training and obedience.....started dogs ready for the next step, not finished.....big difference.




It's not a question of started or finished but doing one before the other. To a lot of us this is putting the cart before the horse.
To me all this influence handling the way I'm seeing it in the video without doing the obedience and other retriever work is just handicapping the dog and the trainer. The way I look at it influence handling is not a bad idea but a lot of other things could be done along with it.
To me an 8 month dog is or should be pretty much ready to go as a started dog but that includes obedience and everything else


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## trout bum (Aug 3, 2005)

Steve Shaver said:


> It's not a question of started or finished but doing one before the other. To a lot of us this is putting the cart before the horse.
> To me all this influence handling the way I'm seeing it in the video without doing the obedience and other retriever work is just handicapping the dog and the trainer. The way I look at it influence handling is not a bad idea but a lot of other things could be done along with it.
> To me an 8 month dog is or should be pretty much ready to go as a started dog but that includes obedience and everything else


When you do start obedience? 

6 months seems about right


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

trout bum said:


> When you do start obedience?
> 
> 6 months seems about right



That seems pretty late to me! I start obedience right out of the gate. The adherence standard evolves but certainly introduction to commands and meanings are done right from the point of arrival at 8 to 10 weeks. Formal obedience is typically the word we use for training at the 6 month mark, but the pup certainly knows the commands they are just reinforced.


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## trout bum (Aug 3, 2005)

Now you're getting "formal"....a command doesn't mean much if not reinforced. 

It's not like social skills such as being in the house, how to load up & ride in the kennel, walk next to you or with a lead can't or are not worked on right out of the chute. A fellow can still introduce those commands and social skills while enhancing influence handling..and then on to the formalities of training.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

jrrichar said:


> That seems pretty late to me! I start obedience right out of the gate. The adherence standard evolves but certainly introduction to commands and meanings are done right from the point of arrival at 8 to 10 weeks. Formal obedience is typically the word we use for training at the 6 month mark, but the pup certainly knows the commands they are just reinforced.





I pretty much agree with this except I actually start formal obedience a little earlier 4 to 5 months depending on the dog. Before that is what I would call i*nfluence training.* Not like what is shown here but everything prior to 4 months old is done by trying to *influence* the proper behavior without any negative reinforcement or correction. This is good. I really never had a word for it. I always called it guidance instead of training. Now I think I'll just call it *influence training*. The term fits perfectly but sounds better. There is a wide definition to the word *influence*. Later on my dogs are very much* influenced* by the collar.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

trout bum said:


> Now you're getting "formal"....a command doesn't mean much if not reinforced.
> 
> It's not like social skills such as being in the house,* how to load up & ride in the kennel, walk next to you or with a lead can't or are not worked on right out of the chute*. A fellow can still introduce those commands and social skills while enhancing influence handling..and then on to the formalities of training.





Yes they can and are. It's called influence handling. I've done it with every puppy I've ever had. That's what you do with puppies. Never knew it was a formal program to be followed.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Steve Shaver said:


> I pretty much agree with this except I actually start formal obedience a little earlier 4 to 5 months depending on the dog. Before that is what I would call i*nfluence training.* Not like what is shown here but everything prior to 4 months old is done by trying to *influence* the proper behavior without any negative reinforcement or correction. This is good. I really never had a word for it. I always called it guidance instead of training. Now I think I'll just call it *influence training*. The term fits perfectly but sounds better. There is a wide definition to the word *influence*. Later on my dogs are very much* influenced* by the collar.


Haha! I would say that this is very true. We just do it without a name, never really gave it much thought. However, a pup between the 8-12 week mark is all influence. That's what makes that age so vital to any training process. Not trying to down play the process that others are discussing but rather maybe the answer to the OP's question is actually: all of the breeders, HT/FT, and waterfowl people train using influence but shift rapidly to a more structured obedience dictated protocol while still retaining a minority of the influence techniques (good handlers lining up a dog as an example).


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*I stand corrected.*

I finally got my son to find a computer and read the comments, we talked briefly, he takes this no talk crap seriously.

With that in mind, I'll try to explain influence handling better.
*
First, Influence Handling--IS NOT TRAINING.

*Formal Training as we humans understand it begins at the end of the Influence handling. At the end of handling period the pups are a blank slate like they where at 12 weeks. The pups have been given minimum human commands 3 words, Hup, dead, and No. _Except when the sons brain goes into obedience mode in the videos._The pups have experienced and conquered most environments and obstacles that can cause time consuming set backs in Advanced Training programs. They have conquered these obstacles under the influence of their peers, not the handler. They will except any training for what ever purpose, they are just 4 months older.​​​*
Second, Influence Handling-- IS TRAINING.
*
The training happens within the pack itself. The handlers job is to slowly expose the pack to different environments that challenge the bolder pups in the pack. As the bolder pups conquer these obstacles they drag the timid pups with them this interaction emboldens the timid pups. By the end of the 4 months there are fewer timid pups or a least the seriously timid have been identified.

Range and direction, in the beginning as the handler walks the pups he has to shuffle his feet to keep from stepping on the pups. With each outing the bold pups start to venture further out pulling the timid pups with them. When the pack reaches the range the handler wants he turns around and walks the opposite direction. The influence of the pack leader (handler) moving away pulls the pack back to the handler, "AKA: Here or Come". The same holds true for moving to the side handler walks left pack moves left. Eventually the handler has total control over the pack. 

These principles hold true for all obstacles, water, retrieving what ever. If one in the pack conquers an obstacle the rest will usually follow. 

One of the strongest influences in the pack is what humans may call envy, or jealousy. The handler uses that influence to make retrievers really want to retrieve. Sometimes it can even replace force fetching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the pups are ready to sell at the end of the influence handling the buyers get to select their pup after participating in a few handling sessions. Reviewing the whole pack at work and looking for the best inherent breed traits allows the buyers a great chance of getting a great dog.
Picking a pup at 8 weeks is sometimes a risky business.

The breeders that use the system like it because they get instant feed back on how their program is working.


Hope this helps let me know?

Thanks for advice and comments.

​​



​


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Ahoy Janell,

I just posted a comment and the first sentence is. INFLUENCE HANDLING IS NOT TRAINING. I had not read your comments when I posted and I mean no disrespect I just want people to read how my son does it.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

dtvm7469 said:


> Ahoy Janell,
> 
> I just posted a comment and the first sentence is. INFLUENCE HANDLING IS NOT TRAINING. I had not read your comments when I posted and I mean no disrespect I just want people to read how my son does it.


First, I don't see any disrespect in trying to clarify a point...

I guess I am confused on the term "influence handling" given that it is explained as "not training" and then "training". Is the context to when this changes the pack mentality or the handlers involvement? 

I think most people who have any experience raising more then one dog from puppyhood (successfully) are familiar with the pack mentality and often monopolize it (putting themselves as alpha as I am sure your son does later on). I see the benefit in your son's method for selection of a 12 week old pup from a breeder that has participated in the protocol but from my experience that 6-12 week span of learning, development, and bonding in a dog is one that I would like critical involvement in. That is my own personal experience and preference, thus I personally would not select a pup from a breeder that followed this particular process.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

They're extremely smart, eager-to-please animals that will eventually figure out what you want.
For those of us aspiring to the pinnacle of a sport and don't want to risk the dog living long enough to figure it out, we formalize training early.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed with the video.
Put some chicken nuggets in your pocket and they'll follow you anywhere.


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## pintailkilla (Apr 28, 2011)

That type of "training" is what I did with my first Lab when I was 12 years old and had no clue how to really train a dog . My current pup is 7 months old and is steady ,does quadruple marks on land and water, sits , comes on both voice and whistle , floating decoy and spinning wing decoy proofed . She is now picking up hand signals and loves boats and gunfire . Seems like alot of wasted time to me .


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Somehow I don't recall Gould suggesting that readers go out and acquire a pack of puppies to influence theirs.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

dtvm7469 said:


> I finally got my son to find a computer and read the comments, we talked briefly, he takes this no talk crap seriously.
> 
> With that in mind, I'll try to explain influence handling better.
> *
> ...


Sorry if you're not finding us to be a receptive audience. You asked for a discussion of the training method and that's what you're getting. 

I'd like to make a couple of points regarding your post quoted above. You say that at the end of the handling period (at 8 months of age) the pups are blank slates, just like they were at 12 weeks. I must vigorously disagree with that statement. Just because there was a concerted effort to avoid "training" the pups, they were learning just the same. They have had 5 months of life experience (past the age of 12 weeks) that has formed their basis of how the world works. Without discipline (not inferring force, but as defined by Webster: "1. training that develops self-control, character, or efficiency. 2. the result of such training; orderly conduct. 3. submission to authority and control) the pups may not easily submit their will to their trainer's authority. This may result in the use of more force than would have been necessary had meaningful training been conducted at an earlier age when the pups would have been more receptive. Also, note that 12 week old puppies are entering the final month of mental development and will be much more influenced by their lessons at that time than they will at 8 months of age. Additionally, 8 months is an age at which sex hormones begin to affect the demeanor of young dogs and is an age at which they will often challenge for pack dominance. Not the best age to *begin* obedience training in my humble opinion.

Secondly, I question whether the bolder pups will make the more timid pups bolder. I believe the timid pups will learn to rely on the leadership of the bolder pups. In the absence of the bolder pup's leadership the timid pups will not be able to function with self-confidence. I think it's necessary to take the timid pups on their own hikes so they can develop self-reliance. A poor student doesn't gain knowledge and self-esteem by copying off of the A-student's paper. He needs to learn to do the work himself!

Finally, is this a discussion about what method is best to train 22 puppies at a time as gundogs or about what method is best to obtain the greatest potential from a puppy? That context alone may be a huge factor in this discussion. 

Swack


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*Not Training, Training, or being influenced.*



jrrichar said:


> First, I don't see any disrespect in trying to clarify a point...
> 
> I guess I am confused on the term "influence handling" given that it is explained as "not training" and then "training". Is the context to when this changes the pack mentality or the handlers involvement?
> 
> I think most people who have any experience raising more then one dog from puppyhood (successfully) are familiar with the pack mentality and often monopolize it (putting themselves as alpha as I am sure your son does later on). I see the benefit in your son's method for selection of a 12 week old pup from a breeder that has participated in the protocol but from my experience that 6-12 week span of learning, development, and bonding in a dog is one that I would like critical involvement in. That is my own personal experience and preference, thus I personally would not select a pup from a breeder that followed this particular process.


I'll try to explain by example.

* "not training" .*

The handler silently walks with the pack. He comes to a ditch and steps over it without *saying anything*. He is *handling* the pack, No Training.
​*"training"*

​The bold pups in the pack jump the ditch without hesitation. The timid pups are then* influenced* to jump the ditch to keep up with the pack. The timid pups *where trained* by the bold pups to not be fearful an jump the ditch. This with no human commands.​

Socialization, Dan often receives the pups at eight weeks the pups live with him the first month. He interacts with each pup daily to break the litter instinct and create the bond. 

Dan's sole purpose in life is to find out how good dogs can be. Did I mention he doesn't have a family he lives alone on the training grounds with dogs, cats and pigeons.








​


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Swack said:


> Sorry if you're not finding us to be a receptive audience. You asked for a discussion of the training method and that's what you're getting.
> 
> I'd like to make a couple of points regarding your post quoted above. You say that at the end of the handling period (at 8 months of age) the pups are blank slates, just like they were at 12 weeks. I must vigorously disagree with that statement. Just because there was a concerted effort to avoid "training" the pups, they were learning just the same. They have had 5 months of life experience (past the age of 12 weeks) that has formed their basis of how the world works. Without discipline (not inferring force, but as defined by Webster: "1. training that develops self-control, character, or efficiency. 2. the result of such training; orderly conduct. 3. submission to authority and control) the pups may not easily submit their will to their trainer's authority. This may result in the use of more force than would have been necessary had meaningful training been conducted at an earlier age when the pups would have been more receptive. Also, note that 12 week old puppies are entering the final month of mental development and will be much more influenced by their lessons at that time than they will at 8 months of age. Additionally, 8 months is an age at which sex hormones begin to affect the demeanor of young dogs and is an age at which they will often challenge for pack dominance. Not the best age to *begin* obedience training in my humble opinion.
> 
> ...


If you review the original post I think you will find the original question was, *Does anybody out there use these handling techniques? 

I am not an authority on this, my training experience is with NAVHDA utility dog testing. I used the traditional rearing and training methods.*

Your comments seem to be concerning the timing and age of training. I am not an expert on these things so the only way I could figure out what ages training could or should start was through the Seeing Eye foundation, I think their training task are much more complicated than teaching a retriever how to retriever. Sorry for the cut and paste but I did not want to miss quote them.

*7. What is the most important role of the puppy raiser?
*You need to show your puppy as much of the outside world as you can so the puppy can become accustomed to its future work environment. Puppies need to be exposed to things such as car travel, sounds, sudden noises, animals, crowds, slippery floors, stairs and stores so that they will not be intimidated by these things as Seeing Eye dogs.

*12. How old will my dog be when he or she returns to The Seeing Eye for training? 
*Your dog will be anywhere between 12 and 15 months old.

I believe NO.7 can be done with 22 puppy's at once, might need a big kitchen.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

dtvm7469 said:


> Your comments seem to be concerning the timing and age of training. I am not an expert on these things so the only way I could figure out what ages training could or should start was through the Seeing Eye foundation, I think their training task are much more complicated than teaching a retriever how to retriever. Sorry for the cut and paste but I did not want to miss quote them.
> 
> 
> *7. What is the most important role of the puppy raiser?
> ...


Seeing eye dog training is certainly complex and difficult, but no more so than advance retriever training, just different. In training retrievers we start early, actually the day we bring them home as seven week old pups. That early training is all about fun coupled with gradual levels of discipline, socialization and building a strong desire to retrieve. They also develop work habits in those early months. I do this all at home with expectation being the dog will usually begin formal training around six months of age, that's where we start a 6-12 month program that at the end will produce a dog that heels, sits, watches birds go down from distant (200-300 yards) guns, retrieves to hand and handles on simple blinds as well as marks. The dog has learned how to turn off pressure, take corrections and learn. These dogs should be ready for derby competition, Senior hunt test and not far from Master HT's.

I just described the typical FT-HT dog that most on this forum relate to, I think the kind of training and dog you guys are talking about is quite a bit different from what most of us on RTF have. Nothing wrong with that, it's just different and doesn't really relate to what we do with our dogs. Now lest you think we don't also hunt our dogs on marsh or field, most of us avidly hunt our dogs. The skills we have built into our dogs make them exceptional hunters, so in the end we may all arrive at the same place.

John


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

John Robinson said:


> Seeing eye dog training is certainly complex and difficult, but no more so than advance retriever training, just different. In training retrievers we start early, actually the day we bring them home as seven week old pups. That early training is all about fun coupled with gradual levels of discipline, socialization and building a strong desire to retrieve. They also develop work habits in those early months. I do this all at home with expectation being the dog will usually begin formal training around six months of age, that's where we start a 6-12 month program that at the end will produce a dog that heels, sits, watches birds go down from distant (200-300 yards) guns, retrieves to hand and handles on simple blinds as well as marks. The dog has learned how to turn off pressure, take corrections and learn. These dogs should be ready for derby competition, Senior hunt test and not far from Master HT's.
> 
> I just described the typical FT-HT dog that most on this forum relate to, I think the kind of training and dog you guys are talking about is quite a bit different from what most of us on RTF have. Nothing wrong with that, it's just different and doesn't really relate to what we do with our dogs. Now lest you think we don't also hunt our dogs on marsh or field, most of us avidly hunt our dogs. The skills we have built into our dogs make them exceptional hunters, so in the end we may all arrive at the same place.
> 
> John



Thanks John, well said.

I didn't really start this thread to debate the principles of influence handling but just to find out if anyone used this method. It is diffidently a paradigm shift from the norm and with anything not proven and accepted by the masses there will be debate. 

*A story*, in 1963 I was helping a Retriever Field Trial trainer handle his dog, I shagged the chain gang. He instructed me to speak the commands into the whistle as I blew it. He said the dogs will help interpret the sound of the whistle command at greater distances. His command words where based on the ability to speak them into his whistle and he used special brand whistles . He said it also helps the dog differentiate his whistle from others. 

I brought this subject up one time at a dog club meeting and was laughed out of the group. When i got in the training field with my dogs and those other guys where chasing those pointers and yelling and whistling, I got the last laugh.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

dtvm7469 said:


> Question:
> 
> How do you control a 6 month old gundog pup's range without using any collars or training aids or making any sound , no talking, whistling, arm or head gestures?
> 
> ...


I know your initial question was if anyone used these methods, but as highlighted above you did say you thought the system was worth talking about. That's why I offered my observations concerning your comments on a later post. Only offering my $.02 worth.

Swack


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

All I have to go on are the two videos posted, but I didn't see any much "method" or "system" in either of them. 

I did see some training albeit of things I really really don't want working dogs to do; competing for birds and snatching (imagine how popular that is on a $12,000 a day driven shoot) running in, missing ground and moving behind the Gun when (sort of) quartering, avoiding the handler on delivery; in short no "control" at all. Puppy preparation prior to real training can be made just as much fun for the dogs but can done in a much more structured way that avoids bad habits rather than inculcate them. Sorry I don't get it.

The dogs looked healthy and happy so did the handler, so good on them, each to his own.

Eug


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks Swack,

At least I know you read all the comments now.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks Swack,

At least I know your comments are based on reading all the thread. It made over 3000 views. I guess a few people know something about the influence handling now, I am sure glad I didn't label it Influence Training.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Sorry Eug, 

It confuses me to.


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## trout bum (Aug 3, 2005)

Read Plateaus of Destiny or The Labrador Shooting Dog, Mr Watson and you'll have your answer.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

trout bum said:


> Read Plateaus of Destiny or The Labrador Shooting Dog, Mr Watson and you'll have your answer.



We'll be at Mikes seminar Oct 11-12 I'll let Mike explain it to me.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

dtvm7469 said:


> I'll try to explain by example.
> 
> * "not training" .*
> 
> ...



Makes more sense to bond with my own pup on one to one basis. It is more effective than having a handler with many pups trying to bond with other people's pups. I think you can find out how good your dog is in other ways or influencing the pup yourself. I would never have an opportunity to run my pup with a pack nor would I plan so. And no offense I wouldn't send my pup to be trained that way! I believe we are speaking about different outcomes we are trying to achieve. It is all what you want in a dog and how best you can apply teaching method. JMHO


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

dtvm7469 said:


> Sorry Eug,
> 
> It confuses me to.


Curious as to why you are attending if it confuses you?


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Makes more sense to bond with my own pup on one to one basis. It is more effective than having a handler with many pups trying to bond with other people's pups. I think you can find out how good your dog is in other ways or influencing the pup yourself. I would never have an opportunity to run my pup with a pack nor would I plan so. And no offense I wouldn't send my pup to be trained that way! I believe we are speaking about different outcomes we are trying to achieve. It is all what you want in a dog and how best you can apply teaching method. JMHO



Probably not the right handling program for the hobbyist, The system requires there be at least 4 pups the same age. 

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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*Two reason, why*



Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Curious as to why you are attending if it confuses you?



First reason: If you have read "The Labrador Shooting Dog" by Mike Gould you'll notice there are several photos of a handler named Dan Watson demonstrating Mikes Training techniques. Dan is doing the same thing for Mike at this seminar, but he actually moves. Dan's my son and I like playing with him and dogs.

Second Reason: Probably the same reason most people go to seminars, to get unconfused.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I must be a "glutton" for punishment, but let me explain the impact of physical influence with several examples starting with a pup. There are many different applications including pack techniques. So don't let the OP's video cloud the perception because that's only one example. 

There was a recent example in a puppy video which highlighted a young owner walking through shallow water and his pup following (at first). Then he became braver as the situation unfolded. It's called training...some might call that exposure. It is not in the true sense a controlled exercise with commands. However, it was one pup in a pack of two learning. 

Bill Hillmann's technique of just taking off on kind of a free walk teaches the puppy to be stay near and work with him. Dogs genetically are programmed to be with someone. 

A person can bond with their pup by just spending time hanging out with them. The pup becomes more responsive and wants to be with you and that fulfills an important, lasting need. Everyone tries to physically influence a pup's behavior, but they don't call it that. 

The simplest way to get a pup to react in a desired manner is to start walking away. Most know what that will do. It is physical influence. You may call that training (or not). There is no set program for how much is necessary and most of it depends on what you are specifically trying to accomplish. You can rest assured that every dog that runs a hunt test demonstrates the "physical influence" of his/her trainer and sometime it is not a compliment. 

Several years ago a friend of mine called over a concern he had with his recently titled MH bitch. She was a high, tough dog to handle in tests. They got by with rigid OB. It seems he NOW wanted to hunt upland and admitted that he had her tightly screwed down for control. 

However, she had no concept of just taking off and being free to search and find wild birds in the upland. The response was always a look of what do you want me to do next? Clueless is not fun. 

Those that do hunt the uplands with their retrievers have this need to keep the dog in range. With the correct physical influence training this can be simpler to accomplished. However, more often than not the effort is put into e-collar control and "because I said so" training and parameters rather than using physical responsiveness. Mostly, this is not possible because this genetic trait has not been nurtured from the very beginning of training. That's why it is often difficult to change into a teacher after the student is lost. 

And then you have many that prefer a dog NOT be a "jack of all trades and master of none". I've had friends that strongly follow this principle. They have their hunting dogs and field trial competitors. This will definitely bring a few hackles up for some. 

Essentially, there are many forms of "physical influence". When we had horses there was always one or two that were difficult to catch when turned out into the pasture. There is a skill using "physical influence" which makes it simple. I know because it use to really tick a few people off after trying to catch a horse for quite some time when I casually went out for the retrieve (and it was NOT a can of oats). 

Balance is something we all try to develop in our dogs. Responsiveness is a function of how much physical influence you have with your dog (or dogs). It is easy to measure when you are an observer. It is difficult to accept that a non-responsive dog is the result of the trainer having poor physical influence. 

I'm using it practically every day with my new pup. You don't become the center of the universe with a pup with weak physical influence. You can't force a pup to like and trust you. If a person is open-mined, they can watch Bill Hillmann's puppy videos and "see" a great deal of physical influence training (or not). 

Some dogs will go "through a brick wall" for their trainer and some won't. Why is that?


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## trout bum (Aug 3, 2005)

dtvm7469 said:


> Probably not the right handling program for the hobbyist, The system requires there be at least 4 pups the same age.
> 
> _
> __
> ...


Quite contrary the system works just as well with a single dog as it does a team of dogs. Ask Mike when you see him. 



KwickLabs said:


> I must be a "glutton" for punishment, but let me explain the impact of physical influence with several examples starting with a pup. There are many different applications including pack techniques. So don't let the OP's video cloud the perception because that's only one example.
> 
> Some dogs will go "through a brick wall" for their trainer and some won't. Why is that?


That one’s real easy, it’s the early imprinting of that influence and bonding started right out of the chute. Teamwork and trust…….terrific examples Jim! I thought sure you’d mention Julie Knutson’s “walk” same principle

Back to the OP and question. Yes, I’ve been using influence handling for over 45 years. More so these days and on my second lab brought up under this system. No quads yet, a few triples and several doubles, I know we’re behind the 8-ball…..

At 5 months old she hunted wild phez & quail 4 – 5 times a week for 3 months. At 17 months she had to step up as a starter waterfowl hunting. Kept the same upland routine and added in September Teal and then October through the end of January for big ducks and into February for dark geese. Tossed in a couple of snow goose conservation hunts in April. I didn’t hunt turkey with her but did so successfully with her predecessor…… no complaints here but I’m just a hobbyist.


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

No Randy, you are a hunter. 
Some "hunt" them only/mostly as retrievers , which requires little "hunting" ( search / finding and producing the bird for the hunter to kill, all that before the chance to retrieve), and some are more about upland hunting them and also waterfowl pick up work ... Some want "game dogs" or "games dogs" or both in all kind of variances ? 
I don't know, how about do what you like, and let others do the same, and along the way maybe learn something new, what you are doing now may not be all that important as you evolve, or maybe the opposite will take place, enjoy it all. 
Good thread IMO.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

I have some more Video footage, it's not the best, but I'll try to make some clips that show how the pups respond to the handlers movements.


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*Command and Control Video*

Here is another video that shows the handler controlling range and direction by walking and using the trigger word Hup "Look at Me".

Dan likes to be able to control the pup so Later when he starts command signals he can be sure the pups is preforming the commanded task at the time the command is given.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

dtvm7469 said:


> First reason: If you have read "The Labrador Shooting Dog" by Mike Gould you'll notice there are several photos of a handler named Dan Watson demonstrating Mikes Training techniques. Dan is doing the same thing for Mike at this seminar, but he actually moves. Dan's my son and I like playing with him and dogs.
> 
> Second Reason: Probably the same reason most people go to seminars, to get unconfused.


 The reason I go is to learn. Is unconfused the same as to learn! Good luck Let us know!


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## dtvm7469 (Aug 21, 2014)

*That Hup word.*



Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Never heard of this fellow Dan Watson. Someone mentioned the other fellow on the forum a couples days ago.
> Not sure this program would be helpful to me. Not being a stick in the mud either. But I like my puppies to be well versed with several commands by 6 months. They also do a puppy obed class and puppy agility class by 6m.We visit nursing homes after their shots and go all sorts of places with them to socialize.??? Hup ??? IMHO


Ahoy Mary Lynn Metras.

I made "hopefully"a better video that shows the trigger word Hup in action. Dan uses it to get the pups to look at him.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

dtvm7469 said:


> Ahoy Mary Lynn Metras.
> 
> I made "hopefully"a better video that shows the trigger word Hup in action. Dan uses it to get the pups to look at him.


Thanks for the video but I am not sure of the usefulness of this method for FT, HT or HRC. JMO Very different scenario than I would teach a dog to do upland. As long as you fellows are having fun that is great. That is what it is all about! Good luck to you Thanks for sharing.


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