# Dog Trainers( Sit Means Sit)



## squirrel hunter (Dec 24, 2011)

I'm interested in knowing if anybody has used The Dog trainers from Sit Means Sit, Ive been watching some videos and have a friend who is interested and was wondering if anybody had any real feedback about them, The only reviews i can find are great but there is always some people that might not be happy, Seeing as i like to hear both good and bad before i make my decisions, Any feed back would be great, Thanks


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Unlikely you'll get any good feedback from this bunch re SMS. We all train our own dogs (for the most part) and some are actually competitors. 

You're better off checking personal references for the trainer in question and reviewing their resume. You can and should go check out audit a group class or lesson as well, to see if it meets with your expectations. 

They have a wide variety of trainers and skill levels. You have to look at the individual franchise IMO to see what you think.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

What is Sit Means Sit?

What does your friend want to do with his dog?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the owner of SMS is a man named Fred Hassen,probably the most misunderstood man to ever to have a brief stay here oh the RTF...used to spar with him on line as he rubbed many the wrong way with his less than traditional views on training dogs...got to know the man and his wife in person and turned out to be quite normal and not nearly as abrasive as his on line personna


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I trained with a Sit Means Sit trainer before I was involved in retriever training. It's a franchise dog-training operation that uses an e-collar as part of their method. DarrinGreene is absolutely right, the trainers who purchase a franchise are trained in the method, but like all dog trainers, there are great ones and there are so-so ones and the franchise can never guarantee that each one will be great. Most of them will do a free demonstration and evaluation at your home, and I suggest you go watch one of their classes and see if it's for you.

I was turned off from the method when I asked my trainer at what point I could transition off of the collar (because I was considering showing) and she said "never." It did get my dog conditioned to the e-collar long before I ever did any retriever work though, LOL.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> got to know the man and his wife in person and turned out to be quite normal and not nearly as abrasive as his on line personna


How true is this about alot of people (RTF and otherwise)?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

DuckTruk said:


> How true is this (RTF and otherwise)?


Depends who you are. I've spoken to Fred a number of times myself and found him to be well within the spectrum of normal. We're still acquainted. Everyone is not everyone else's cup of tea unfortunately. That's why we all have our own circle of friends, right?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pam Spears said:


> I trained with a Sit Means Sit trainer before I was involved in retriever training. It's a franchise dog-training operation that uses an e-collar as part of their method. DarrinGreene is absolutely right, the trainers who purchase a franchise are trained in the method, but like all dog trainers, there are great ones and there are so-so ones and the franchise can never guarantee that each one will be great. Most of them will do a free demonstration and evaluation at your home, and I suggest you go watch one of their classes and see if it's for you.
> 
> I was turned off from the method when I asked my trainer at what point I could transition off of the collar (because I was considering showing) and she said "never." It did get my dog conditioned to the e-collar long before I ever did any retriever work though, LOL.


I get that same question when I have a customer using any type of correction, whether it be pinch collar or e-collar. My answer is "Eventually, the dog will have a set of well ingrained habits that don't require the use of corrections very often, if at all. The rules for most dog games specify now equipment at all on a dog, and the dogs perform fine. Having said that... WHY would you not want to have access to the training tool for the life of the dog?" 

I get immediately concerned when people ask me questions like this because I know they are not fully bought into the method and probably won't be consistent with it's usage down the line, which only makes for bad press for my business. I don't want anything but well behaved dogs out there if they have been through my program.

SMS is like anything involving correction. Some folks are going to be skeptical, if not downright resistant because of it's nature. I find this especially true with e-collars. E-collars also drive the price up a bit, but... Once people see a demo of a dog who shows no ill effects from e-collar usage and is obedient as can be, they usually come around. SMS relies on that demo dog very heavily. That's one of the requirements of becoming a franchise. Your dog goes with you to school. 

Quick disclaimer, all this info about SMS I'm giving is my observations from afar. None of it is proprietary. You can find out for yourself with a little bit of research.


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## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> Depends who you are. I've spoken to Fred a number of times myself and found him to be well within the spectrum of normal. We're still acquainted. Everyone is not everyone else's cup of tea unfortunately. That's why we all have our own circle of friends, right?


I edited my original comment and forgot to finish the thought....It should have read "How true is this about alot of people (RTF and otherwise)"

I've never met the dude and don't remember the "battles" that were referenced....


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## sdnordahl (Sep 1, 2012)

I like the idea that SMS takes potential handlers through a training program.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

sdnordahl said:


> I like the idea that SMS takes potential handlers through a training program.


It's still a franchise. If a person is a good dog trainer and spent adequate time proving their abilities in their chosen field they do not need a franchise to be a dog trainer. Their reputation in their chosen venue is more than enough to bring them business. There is not a business owner alive who will not declare that referals and word of mouth are the best marketing tools.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

It is a franchise, but they target the people that are going to use Petsmart for obediance. I honestly doubt that anyone who plays the dog games would use Petsmart of SMS, but the people that want want Rover to walk on a loose leash and not drag them around the block are perfect candidates for SMS.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> It's still a franchise. If a person is a good dog trainer and spent adequate time proving their abilities in their chosen field they do not need a franchise to be a dog trainer. Their reputation in their chosen venue is more than enough to bring them business. There is not a business owner alive who will not declare that referals and word of mouth are the best marketing tools.


That depends to some degree on the person's marketing expertise and business acumen Paul. A franchise provides a lot of things that someone without a lot of marketing and business experience might need, such as logos, advertising layouts, strategies for building business and so forth. They also provide product at a discount, sometimes better than you can get with a distributor, because they can buy in bigger volume. You might also get a lot of brand recognition depending on who you partner with.

I think there is a place for it in pet dog training when you are trying to compete against a behemoth like pet smart or petco. 

The reason I say that is because I think the average pet owner has no idea what someone's reputation is in any dog sport that they might participate in, much less a commercial endeavor like detection dogs or police dogs. You could easily starve to death trying to start a business based strictly on referrals and word of mouth. When you begin, most have to advertise and create awareness of themselves in the local community or they will never get off the ground. Eventually, you can cut those expenses and live on referrals, but up front you really need that awareness factor. Franchise deals like SMS provide a lot of that stuff and good guidance on where and how to get business that isn't otherwise available to people. 

I personally have 20+ years of corporate marketing experience and some self employed sales experience. I didn't go with a franchise because I want to build my own brand, but if I was an awesome trainer and wanted to get going, I would consider it. I know Fred because his franchise was part of my research for writing my business plan. Ultimately I chose to do my own thing but only because I have cost effective access to the marketing and advertising skill sets I needed to get started. If you didn't have that, SMS is a pretty cost effective franchise to buy into.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Dave Farrar said:


> It is a franchise, but they target the people that are going to use Petsmart for obediance. I honestly doubt that anyone who plays the dog games would use Petsmart of SMS, but the people that want want Rover to walk on a loose leash and not drag them around the block are perfect candidates for SMS.


And... that's where the money is...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

You mean the Sit means Sit has a website and provides regional referals to the trainers who pay the fee?


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Franchise

My wife is crazy about Red Lobster (the restuarant)
We have stopped eating at the one in our home town because the quality is sub par.
It's all about the local management.

The same applies to SMS.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> And... that's where the money is...


Yup! Agreed. No matter where You are in the world.
I make twice as much from the 'Pet scene' as I do from the 'Gundog Scene'. The pet scene pay on time,and require less effort or investment of equipment.
The 'Gundog scene' expect 'Quick Fix' and are Bad Payer's! 'Often expecting ''Free'' ! Just because You compete with them?..(What's that all about?),They also require more extensive training and training costs ,with more than 10 times the amount of time. - Both are charged the same !!?? Do the 'Maths'
.......
Everybody advertises (In some way), The very fact that I am posting is ''Advertising'', although I am unlikely to gain any business directly from it!
......
I don't advertise 'Over Here' by way of flyer's ,or fancy web site,or Marketing Company....In the line of ''Dog Training'' ,as a profession?..
I believe -You are only as good as the Last dog you trained.
''That's the best Advert You can get''.

......
ATB .You RTF' ers I have spent a few valuable/and In-valuable times on here,and found 'You guy's are ''Just the same,as over here''
'Thanks for the Dance'
R.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Just seams to me I've seen about 2-3 Sit means Sit people come and go locally. Doesn't sing of a "strong business/franchise" investment to me personally. Then again, who knows how many store front training stores/centers have come and gone too? 

I know there are some staple training centers in the NW and what seem to be a group of very stable professional trainers who've been around a long while. Maybe the longevity and reputation of those training facilities(general, not field) overshadow the ability of a SMS business to be successful in the area? 

As a few folks have commented, they liked the idea of a trainer having been through a program and another posted that one Red Lobster isn't as good as another. For me, to continue to seek a quality franchise I expect the same consistency and quality of the product no matter if I'm in Denver at the Corp. Offices or in my home town. For the inability to provide a consistent product in a dog trainer, I certainly wouldn't really feel that a dog training operation is a good choice for a franchise business. Something which deals with recipes and frozen food seems to be a more reliable model to follow when you're handing out $$$'s.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

It is what it is


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

A long time ago (probably over 5 years), I went to a SMS "session" with a friend who had just bought a new dog and wanted to try them out. I had collar trained my previous dog, so I was familiar with the idea, if not their exact methods. I was really not impressed. There was little "teaching." Example: dog pulled on the leash, dog was stimmed until it stopped pulling on the leash. The owner was instructed to do nothing but stand there. There were no verbal commands that the dog could follow. The dog looked very confused and somewhat panicked. I don't think that is the way most trainers introduce the e-collar. Also, the payment structure COMPLETELY turned me off. You pay for "lifetime" training, and I think it was something like $1500 for a pet owner, plus the cost of the collar. Sorry, but I'm not going to put that much money down if I don't even know if this is going to work for me and my dog. I have also watched some of the videos online and I don't like the way many of the dogs work. Just not my cup of tea. 

All just my opinion from one experience.


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## squirrel hunter (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks every body,


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> You mean the Sit means Sit has a website and provides regional referals to the trainers who pay the fee?


There is a central website where you punch in your location and it guides you to the right person locally. Comes up pretty high in the google listing because of the overall traffic rate on the site. The local person doesn't really need that much traffic, I don't think, for it to show up high in the listing. The top 4 listings in the "organic" section after the paid ads get 80% of the traffic or something. There's a lot to be said for popping up first.

It comes up 3rd or 4th in my area. I don't see it in yours. There may not be a trainer nearby you so the keywords don't appear in the site.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> There is a central website where you punch in your location and it guides you to the right person locally. Comes up pretty high in the google listing because of the overall traffic rate on the site. The local person doesn't really need that much traffic, I don't think, for it to show up high in the listing. The top 4 listings in the "organic" section after the paid ads get 80% of the traffic or something. There's a lot to be said for popping up first.
> 
> It comes up 3rd or 4th in my area. I don't see it in yours. There may not be a trainer nearby you so the keywords don't appear in the site.


I've seen a few SMS trainers around. Seems like I saw one just a few months ago at a dog show? Dunno? I know of at least 2 with certainty. I think there may have been more at one time.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

surprised it didn't come up in the search then.

like I said, it does out here - must have to do with the traffic to the individual trainer's page


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## Fran Seagren (Jan 21, 2013)

I met Fred about 7/8 years ago when my training partner had a Sit-Means-Sit training franchise here in the Seattle/Tacoma area. They were putting on a seminar. I picked Fred up at the airport. THAT was quite impressive. I walked in the airport looking for him and there he was with a 9 month old Mal. The pup was sitting on a frisbee waiting patiently for Fred to get his luggage. No leash, no collar. When Fred told the dog to heel, he stood up and picked up his frisbee and heeled along through all the people with baggage on wheels, kids, old people, etc. Fred is pretty interesting - at least that's how I remember the short visit. The next day at the seminar, he was pretty amazing. All sorts of people and dogs showed up - police dogs with their handlers, shy dogs, people/food/dog aggressive dogs. I think my lab was the only "normal" dog there that day. Not that the police dogs weren't well behaved - they were, just pretty excited about everything. They aren't the kind of dogs that lay around collecting dust. His demo included every dog there. I don't know where he gets his energy, but he truly was amazing to watch with dogs. His 9 month old Mal would not only retrieve stuff, behave perfectly in a busy airport, but would also "attack" the guy wearing all the padding on command, and then stop instantly. 

But, like others have mentioned, it all depends on the trainer you deal with. I don't think they've cloned Fred, yet.

Fran


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

ahh good ol freddy


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> I get that same question when I have a customer using any type of correction, whether it be pinch collar or e-collar. My answer is "Eventually, the dog will have a set of well ingrained habits that don't require the use of corrections very often, if at all. The rules for most dog games specify now equipment at all on a dog, and the dogs perform fine. Having said that... WHY would you not want to have access to the training tool for the life of the dog?"
> 
> I get immediately concerned when people ask me questions like this because I know they are not fully bought into the method and probably won't be consistent with it's usage down the line, which only makes for bad press for my business. I don't want anything but well behaved dogs out there if they have been through my program.
> 
> ...


Oh you can be we still use our e-collars, LOL. The way she was teaching the class, we were to nick at the same time any command was uttered. Heel (nick), sit (nick), here (nick.) Granted, they were light nicks, just enough to get the desired response. I just thought that nicking with every single command, including the first time a new command was used, was way too much nicking. Maybe it was just her "spin" on the method, since someone else mentioned that Fred's dog performed in the airport without a collar. I just wasn't "meshing" with the local trainer. Plus, she only teaches pet people how to get their dogs to do basic obedience: she doesn't do AKC obedience or rally training, or any specific event. When our lesson plan was over, we just moved on.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Fran Seagren said:


> I met Fred about 7/8 years ago when my training partner had a Sit-Means-Sit training franchise here in the Seattle/Tacoma area. They were putting on a seminar. I picked Fred up at the airport. THAT was quite impressive. I walked in the airport looking for him and there he was with a 9 month old Mal. The pup was sitting on a frisbee waiting patiently for Fred to get his luggage. No leash, no collar. When Fred told the dog to heel, he stood up and picked up his frisbee and heeled along through all the people with baggage on wheels, kids, old people, etc. Fred is pretty interesting - at least that's how I remember the short visit. The next day at the seminar, he was pretty amazing. All sorts of people and dogs showed up - police dogs with their handlers, shy dogs, people/food/dog aggressive dogs. I think my lab was the only "normal" dog there that day. Not that the police dogs weren't well behaved - they were, just pretty excited about everything. They aren't the kind of dogs that lay around collecting dust. His demo included every dog there. I don't know where he gets his energy, but he truly was amazing to watch with dogs. His 9 month old Mal would not only retrieve stuff, behave perfectly in a busy airport, but would also "attack" the guy wearing all the padding on command, and then stop instantly.
> 
> But, like others have mentioned, it all depends on the trainer you deal with. I don't think they've cloned Fred, yet.
> 
> Fran


I don't agree with dogs being off lead in public areas. Police dogs are not off lead unless they are actively working. I have three local K-9 Handler friends, one of whom moved recently to San Diego PD and the others are in Monroe PD and another WSP Handler. They don't have their dogs off lead in public. It's a liability. It's a bad example to set for folks who don't know any better. I won't take my dogs to the sportsman shows again because they allow the general public to walk in with dogs whom are not part of the show. I'll assume that most "trainers" have their dogs with proper vaccinations etc although, the arrival of general public with pit bulls and various dogs just doesn't sit well with me. Unless you are working your dog in a private area they should be on lead or in a kennel. Not having a dog on lead in a public place with other stuff going on puts your own dog at risk no matter how well behaved. --


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## squirrel hunter (Dec 24, 2011)

Pam Spears said:


> Oh you can be we still use our e-collars, LOL. The way she was teaching the class, we were to nick at the same time any command was uttered. Heel (nick), sit (nick), here (nick.) Granted, they were light nicks, just enough to get the desired response. I just thought that nicking with every single command, including the first time a new command was used, was way too much nicking. Maybe it was just her "spin" on the method, since someone else mentioned that Fred's dog performed in the airport without a collar. I just wasn't "meshing" with the local trainer. Plus, she only teaches pet people how to get their dogs to do basic obedience: she doesn't do AKC obedience or rally training, or any specific event. When our lesson plan was over, we just moved on.




That whole nonstop nicking is what gets me i really dont think thats a good thing, I watched some videos and was wondering why the guy was using the nick button like he was sending a telegram, A little more intensity and and you dont have to burn them as much, Seems to me that a dog could get confused easily, I know it works but man when the dog you demonstrate is yours that you have been working with for years do you really need to nick them that many times?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

If you all think you know better then you should be the ones with the national franchise, right?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> If you all think you know better then you should be the ones with the national franchise, right?


For $15,000, I will offer a "Little Happy Caesar Certified Dog Trainer" course. 

You will receive a certificate stating you are a "Little Happy Caesar" trainer after, "10 days and a couple of two day follow ups". Wait a mintute, that's Schick Shadle Recovery Centers tag line.....need to come up with something more original..


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> For $15,000, I will offer a "Little Happy Caesar Certified Dog Trainer" course.
> 
> You will receive a certificate stating you are a "Little Happy Caesar" trainer after, "10 days and a couple of two day follow ups". Wait a mintute, that's Schick Shadle Recovery Centers tag line.....need to come up with something more original..


I wasn't talking to you Paul! LOL

I was addressing those who claim to have a better way. 

I'm not defending Fred here, just making the point that until you know all the in's and outs of a successful method, you shouldn't criticize.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> I wasn't talking to you Paul! LOL
> 
> I was addressing those who claim to have a better way.
> 
> I'm not defending Fred here, *just making the point that until you know all the in's and outs of a successful method, you shouldn't criticize*.



and therein lies the problem that plagued Fred and for that matter every other trainer here on the RTF...there is ALWAYS someone on here that KNOWS better or THINKS they know better, and then it gets to be a first class urinating match, resumes get requested,trophies and all age points are counted ,titles are thrust and the cycle begins.....and the biggest loser in the fray is the newbie or inexperienced trainer just looking for a hand


The thing I learned after getting to meet Fred was one had to divide Fred the trainer and Fred the entrepeneur, I knew that the trainer and I would NEVER see eye to eye so we discussed the dog business and other non threatening subjects...Fred was just trying to learn and understand the dog games because he saw it as a potential business opportunity, he was trying to see if the methods he knew could work in other applications, the man is no dummy, he has been around enough dogs of different breeds and temperments, but here on the RTF he runs into people that generally are breed specific and method specific...In his attempt to learn the ins and outs of the games he came across as blunt and challenging, and we all know how retriever people are when they get challenged....you might as well be calling them a cur or a junkyard dog

We here on the RTF as a whole are great at dispensing advice but horrible at absorbing it


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## pheasantlab (Nov 3, 2011)

While I do not know Fred personally, nor can I comment about his training, I do know how he conducted himself on this forum. It is easily searchable. I do know that I will never throw any money his direction solely based on the way he conducted himself on this forum. My opinion FWIW.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

One thing that got me about Fred, is that he came across as a trainer, someone who said he could train dogs. I still remember the video of him running and handling at a NAHRA intermediate test. His dog was not quite trained to the intermediate level and his timing as a handler was bad. I thought it was a poor performance for a professional dog person.

I could never take him seriously as a retriever person, just another bull $h!t slinger.


Thought I'd add a PS later: I never had any problems with the way Fred used the collar. I believe it works and it's similar to the way Pete, Jamie the Pack Leader, Pat Nolan do; and the way the Dogtra obedience book that comes with their collars says to do it. It's not our mainstream Lardy method. Or the Smart Work method, Carr method, or Dobbs method either. But it works for some people and dogs. The more I can learn the better and that's a big reason I'm still on the RTF after all these years. 

I'm not from Missouri but I still want someone to "show me" when they're touting their method. That video, and others, showed me that Fred didn't know what he was doing training and playing in my game. Anyone can BS, but like that signature line from someone here says: "The bull $h!t stops when the tailgate drops."


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## squirrel hunter (Dec 24, 2011)

IM NOT EVEN PRETENDING TO KNOW MORE, I just think that that's a whole lot of corrections, I was taught give the command if no response give the command again then burn them until they follow through with the command, Every dog is different, I was asking about sit means sit not trying to start a pissing match, I don't know nor have i ever talked to this man named Fred and i meant no disrespect to him, I have a friend who wanted to see what they are about, I said i would ask around, Nothing more than that,, I love working with dogs and there is a whole lot i don't know, But i will say i'm going to learn and i will be my own boss in the field, I have people bringing their labs to me for help. If people think i'm pretty good with dogs then that's their opinion, But i know i have a long way to go, And i'm eager to learn,


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Hi Squirrel Hunter. I probably shouldn't be talking about the Sit Means Sit method of using the collar. But, I believe the collar is set so light that it isn't a correction, just kind of like an itch that the dog can only sorta feel. So it's not a burn or punishment of any kind, just a vague itch. I've had it explained to me but I've never seen anyone actually training a dog with that method in person. 

I will say if Pete and Pat Nolan use something very similar, then it works. Just because I don't know how to do it doesn't mean it's not a viable training method. But, it didn't cross over to retriever work to well with Fred and the dog he was running in NAHRA then.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

My demo dog for the pet business is trained this way also Howard. I can't have a big reaction with a prospect client watching. I use a Dogtra and hide the control in my pocket most of the time. When I do re-enforce commands the client rarely notices. You might because you know the details but the client doesn't even see it. It's so subtle that all you get is compliance. The dog's ears may drop but that's about it.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I can't see it as bad if we get a politically correct collar method that is acceptable to the Molly Minivans of the world. To me it just has to work with most dogs and be humane. Heck, Wales and Australia might change their laws and allow collar training. 

Ken, could this be the beginning of the end for your favorite training tool?


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

Advise is to go train with good people who know obedience. The franchise thing is a joke. Same as a computer franchise I once purchased and dropped. It's always about the money and no quick solutions for any dog. I train with some very good obedience people right now. We are not using the EC right now because but going back to the old style of slip collar and learning hand and voice commands. Since we are on the subject does anyone clicker train their field dogs. I have found that this is a problem when you do into the field. I don't do it but the agility people insist on it??


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Howard N said:


> I can't see it as bad if we get a politically correct collar method that is acceptable to the Molly Minivans of the world. To me it just has to work with most dogs and be humane. Heck, Wales and Australia might change their laws and allow collar training.
> 
> Ken, could this be the beginning of the end for your favorite training tool?


That would be a no to the rope Howard. Or at least I haven't gotten good enough to make it go away! I do recommend a 25ft flexi lead though. If you think those of us who regularly use check cords are bad at it, you should see Molly Minivan!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

featherqwest said:


> Advise is to go train with good people who know obedience. The franchise thing is a joke. Same as a computer franchise I once purchased and dropped. It's always about the money and no quick solutions for any dog. I train with some very good obedience people right now. We are not using the EC right now because but going back to the old style of slip collar and learning hand and voice commands. Since we are on the subject does anyone clicker train their field dogs. I have found that this is a problem when you do into the field. I don't do it but the agility people insist on it??


My demo dog is trained with markers and has had only very minor issues transitioning to the field. At 10.5 mos old she's into land pattern blinds and getting ready for swim by then when the water here warms up. Very easy to overcome the little challenges if you understand the theory.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> Molly Minivan!



....Love it


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## jlupi (Jun 17, 2010)

I do believe that fred's methods are much harder on the dog than Pat Nolan


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

The trainer I worked with did this: on the day we started the program, she brought our Dogtra collar. Put it on the dog, waited til he was ignoring us and fooling around, then began tapping the collar (set on it's lowest setting.) No reaction of course, very low stimulation. We kept turning up the setting and tapping until the dog cocked his head, obviously feeling *something* but he wasn't sure what it was. That was our initial setting for that dog (different dogs react at different levels.) From then on, he was to wear the collar all day, every day. We were to carry the transmitter all day, every day. Every command was to be followed immediately by tap-tap-tapping with the transmitter until he complied. She specifically told us to do this from the very first time we gave a command, even a new one. So the dog would be told to sit, then be tapped with the collar until he did, even though he had no idea what the command meant. I found that a little odd. Then after 3 months of this, dog doing very well BTW, she told me we would never stop using the collar. I could not envision having my dog wear his e-collar every waking moment of every day, and me having to carry a transmitter all the time: just not realistic. About that time we started getting involved in training for hunt tests, and watched SmartWorks. The dog was quite obedient by then and didn't need the collar for every day obedience, so we just transitioned into the more traditional collar usage that most here use. Just my own experience, but I wonder whether this was a standard SMS approach or just that of our trainer, who shortly thereafter left the SMS program and went out on her own.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I have met the guy. My impression was that he loved training dogs and found a way to make a living out of it. Incredible idea! Making a franchise out of it. In addition to fully checking out the particular trainer with whom you'll be working, you need to think about your goals. Do you want the put a MH on your dog or run FT??? Then you're going to exceed the scope of a SMS trainer. But since sound basic obedience is the foundation for anything you might want to do with your dog, and if someone is following Fred's methods, they'll help you both get off to a good start.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Howard N said:


> One thing that got me about Fred, is that he came across as a trainer, someone who said he could train dogs. I still remember the video of him running and handling at a NAHRA intermediate test. His dog was not quite trained to the intermediate level and his timing as a handler was bad. I thought it was a poor performance for a professional dog person.
> 
> I could never take him seriously as a retriever person, just another bull $h!t slinger.
> 
> ...



There it is. Fred tried to back up his method by posting videos here and I must say it was very umderwelming. That said I do think his system can work for non-retrievers. He can probably turn out a very obedient dog that will suite the average pet owner. A hunting/testing/trial dog not so much.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> There it is. Fred tried to back up his method by posting videos here and I must say it was very umderwelming. That said I do think his system can work for non-retrievers. He can probably turn out a very obedient dog that will suite the average pet owner. A hunting/testing/trial dog not so much


I'll have to disagree with that Cory

There is a huge misconception about the process. Saying you can't get a dog to a high trial or HT standard is not true. I don't know exactly what Pat or Fred do but I do know I do something similar so I would file it in the same category pretty much. A high standard of obedience weather you use only food,e collar or pinch collar is still a high level of obedience as long as you use the same standard for each of those. This is only another way of introducing obedience at a young age and start a proofing process with the e collar at a young age and having the subject still maintaining a great attitude. You can carry it over to many things in the field also at an early age.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DmQ9sFJjb4&list=PL76368EFFCE7C486F

This was a tough test athough its hard to see,,,took lots of bottom and lining to do properly. My Fred type method used on this dog


But like all training ,,as the dog is faced with greater temptations or things that excite him ,,the levels go up. No different than any other kind of training. The only thing I see different is a dog who carries a better attitude through the processand still comply.
Some dogs still need the ole come meeting with Jesus session,,but most go smoothly.
I have a couple dogs here who were brought up with this method and they receive an MH and did well at an early age in the Q,,,,but here is the big but,,,they would have probably done about the same with traditional methods.
Pete


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Pete said:


> I'll have to disagree with that Cory
> 
> There is a huge misconception about the process. *Saying you can't get a dog to a high trial or HT standard is not true. I don't know exactly what Pat or Fred do *but I do know I do something similar so I would file it in the same category pretty much. A high standard of obedience weather you use only food,e collar or pinch collar is still a high level of obedience as long as you use the same standard for each of those. This is only another way of introducing obedience at a young age and start a proofing process with the e collar at a young age and having the subject still maintaining a great attitude. You can carry it over to many things in the field also at an early age.
> 
> ...


Pete
i think you are reading far more into what I said. I said FRED failed miserably in his attempts. Doing something similar is not the same. I said "he can turn out a fairly obedient dog.....hunting/ht/ft not so much" the he being Fred. That said if the owner/creator of the system can't do it it is going to be an uphill battle for most using his system. 
You say you don't know what he does so that makes a comparison to what to do apples to oranges. Can you honestly say yo would recommend this system to a novice trying to trim his first dog?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Fred was new to hunt tests. So he had a learning curve,,, if any "A" list retriever trainer crossed disciplines such as schutzhund or herding,,they to would seem clumsey or awkwardat first until they got in the groove of things. Fred could have gotten as good with HT's as he was with bite dogs if he put the time in. When I first started doing Schutzhund I suddenly became a duffus. As time went on I got smoother,yet I had been training dogs for 20 years or so before I started the sport

I know enough of what fred does to make a comparison. He is tap tap tap ...,,I am continuous. Same concept it falls under re-enforcement. Realize that i am not defending Fred I would say the same with any Tom Dick or Harry. 
I assure you that his method and mine are similar enough to be in the sme category. Also never get put in a box , I use whatever will work Fred,Evan,Lardy Pat,,its all good if it works

Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Using an e-collar there are very few "methods" one can really use. The dog either turns it off or avoids it. It's pretty simple. 

There's a lot more to a hunting test or field trial dog and if there's one thing I've noticed about Fred, it's that he's constantly trying to invent efficient ways to train on his own. Training with a group, while necessary and fun, is the least efficient dog training one will ever do. If you're trying to run a business it can be downright troublesome to sit in a gun station for three hours a day in order to run your dog for 10 minutes. As much as you want to be social and help everyone out, the time just isn't there. Unless you have a trailer load and some good helpers, training retrievers is incredibly time consuming and inefficient relative to other things. 

I can do 4-5 dogs in basic obedience at my home in the time it takes to drive, set up, run one dog and take it down. 

My guess is that Fred's bigger problem with creating a FT or HT dog isn't his lack of skills but more likely a lack of time.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEPete
i think you are reading far more into what I said. I said FRED failed miserably in his attempts. Doing something similar is not the same. I said "he can turn out a fairly obedient dog.....hunting/ht/ft not so much" the he being Fred. That said if the owner/creator of the system can't do it it is going to be an uphill battle for most using his system. 
You say you don't know what he does so that makes a comparison to what to do apples to oranges. Can you honestly say yo would recommend this system to a novice trying to trim his first dog?][/QUOTE]

Sorry,,,,I missed that last question Cory

No I wouldn't recommend it to a new retriever trainer because there are plenty of other things they need to learn first. I would say when your thirst has been fulfilled on the traditional stuff then its something else to learn. It does give you a tool that traditional methods don't so it is something worthwhile learning if a person wants to further their education with dogs.

But,,I would recommend the basics for average pet training

Pete


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Pete said:


> [QUOTEPete
> 
> Sorry,,,,I missed that last question Cory
> 
> ...


That is pretty much the point I was making. That and that Fred stepped into something he did not know enough about.


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