# Master Test rambling



## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

As per schedule, we are seeing the newest crop of Master rants involving individuals that didn't get into a test. This problem has been adequately documented and solutions have been discussed ad nauseum. There is plenty of energy and time devoted to this. Not trying to provoke 15 million responses crucifying the Master National, AKC, Entry Express and all the other satanic cults keeping people from entering tests. Instead the focus of my thread is to cause some introspection.

Here are the facts regarding most hunt tests. A very small group of individuals does all the work. The work starts months before the test and culminates in a 48 hour frenzy of activity. That crew is overworked and under appreciated. They field complaints, try to be at 3 places at once and generally keep things rolling. 

They notice when a pro shows up Saturday morning, runs dogs and is on the road Sunday afternoon without so much as a "thank you". Certainly he/she is running dogs during the test but every club could use help setting up tests on Friday or putting up equipment Sunday afternoon. The marshal notices the gallery gathered under the shade tree eating lunch while he moves the stake after a series. Get up and go roll up a holding blind or break down the line. A flip to the next series can be accomplished quickly and efficiently if everyone helps or it can take a long time for one individual. If things are running smooth then a simple "thank you" goes a long way. Call the hunt test committee prior to the test and I am sure they will welcome and appreciate the help or offer of help. The judging pool could always use new faces. Take a seminar, apprentice and start judging. These are simple ideas that will improve the game.

The current Master test is a welfare state. Many benefit from the hard work of a very few.


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## Parker M. (Mar 6, 2014)

Couldn't have said it any better. Especially your Last line.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Good post, Mark.

Have you noticed with the implementation of the 15% system you are getting offers for help from people you never heard of. If they can't be accommodated, you never hear from them again.

Again, great post.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Out here there are people that will get up and roll up a hold blind, bag birds etc. to help out. I will when at a test or trial out of my area. As for the pros that show up Saturday morning run his dogs and is on the road Sunday afternoon, well all I can say is give it a try. He has his hands full especially if running multiple stakes. I have marshalled plenty of stakes and let me tell you the pros are the easiest ones to deal with and always say thank you.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Thanks Mark, I agree.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

No one denies the pros work their tails off. I've been with a few for two weeks at a time......and I'm always ready to go back to my job. But that's not the point. To put it bluntly, The nature of their business positions them to take more than they give from a weekend test. I know i'm going to get flack for saying it. But from where I sit, it's the way I see it. They are all great people running a business and using the situation that is available to them to provide the best service to their dogs and clients. Pros are a big part of the hunt test. They do a lot of really good things. But they present a set of problems too!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> No one denies the pros work their tails off. I've been with a few for two weeks at a time......and I'm always ready to go back to my job. But that's not the point. To put it bluntly, The nature of their business positions them to take more than they give from a weekend test. I know i'm going to get flack for saying it. But from where I sit, it's the way I see it. They are all great people running a business and using the situation that is available to them to provide the best service to their dogs and clients. Pros are a big part of the hunt test. They do a lot of really good things. But they present a set of problems too!






Yes of course they do but that's just part of the game. 
It's valentines day and lots of people are going to the stores to buy cards, flowers etc but Walmart doesn't expect customers to come in and help restock the shelves or remove stuff once the holiday is over. I know a lot of pros that will help some but just saying they have their hands full too.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Hit the nail on the head.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Thomas D said:


> Good post, Mark.
> 
> Have you noticed with the implementation of the 15% system you are getting offers for help from people you never heard of. If they can't be accommodated, you never hear from them again.
> 
> Again, great post.


Not really Tom.

I have been blessed to be a part of a strong club with a great group of workers! The last test I chaired had 30 trucks helping load equipment into our trailer after the test. These guys make it possible to host lots of dogs and make it run smoothly. Even with these great individuals, things can get stretched. Help is always appreciated.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> Yes of course they do but that's just part of the game.
> It's valentines day and lots of people are going to the stores to buy cards, flowers etc but Walmart doesn't expect customers to come in and help restock the shelves or remove stuff once the holiday is over. I know a lot of pros that will help some but just saying they have their hands full too.


Spoken from a pro's perspective!


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

If retriever clubs were for-profit businesses, the Wal-Mart analogy would be perfect.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> Yes of course they do but that's just part of the game.
> It's valentines day and lots of people are going to the stores to buy cards, flowers etc but Walmart doesn't expect customers to come in and help restock the shelves or remove stuff once the holiday is over. I know a lot of pros that will help some but just saying they have their hands full too.



Comparing a nonprofit organization run 100% by volunteer efforts to Wal-Mart isn't valid. If you paid every volunteer minimum wage for every hour worked then most couldn't afford to play the game.

My post was aimed at those who don't contribute. If a pro is helping then I am very happy to see them at a test. Same goes for amateurs. There are a lot of both that never help anywhere.


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

Last year I had the privilege of judging for East Texas Black Gumbo Club that is run by pros. They do all the work. One of the most organized and efficient tests I have ever been a part of. No need to train the bird boys, no need to keep count of birds in the field, no need to tell them what you mean by certain terms, no wasted time, and extremely quick about tearing down and setting up the next series! I don't think I lifted a finger other than to take birds from handlers. I applaud them. (Rody Best and his crew worked the Master flight I judged)
I enjoyed myself so much I am going back again this year. Judging a Master test can be a very exhausting 3 days... They made is a breeze.
I wish more pros would organize new clubs!


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

This place needs a forum just for belly aching


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## hillsidegoldens (Mar 28, 2009)

As a former board member, marshal, and one time judge I always ask to help at a test. Once you helped put a test on you know how much work is involved. The problem is in every group in life there are the 10% people, I am frustrated by this becuase I am one of the 10% in every group from dogs to kids sports. 
As a christian I should just turn the other check but as a person it gets harder and harder. 
To all the test committees THANK YOU.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

fishduck said:


> As per schedule, we are seeing the newest crop of Master rants involving individuals that didn't get into a test. This problem has been adequately documented and solutions have been discussed ad nauseum. There is plenty of energy and time devoted to this. Not trying to provoke 15 million responses crucifying the Master National, AKC, Entry Express and all the other satanic cults keeping people from entering tests. Instead the focus of my thread is to cause some introspection.
> 
> Here are the facts regarding most hunt tests. A very small group of individuals does all the work. The work starts months before the test and culminates in a 48 hour frenzy of activity. That crew is overworked and under appreciated. They field complaints, try to be at 3 places at once and generally keep things rolling.
> 
> ...


AMEN, Mark. We do it because we love the game, love the camaraderie and most importantly love the dog work, but the clubs, members, and workers can only be stretched so thin.


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## rockfish (Apr 19, 2011)

The Walmart analogy was as stupid of a coment as It gets. I'm the guy throwing those stinky birds working my ass off and never heard a pro say thank you let alone help out. The last time I check I didn't get paid!!!!!


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Christine Maddox said:


> Last year I had the privilege of judging for East Texas Black Gumbo Club that is run by pros. They do all the work. One of the most organized and efficient tests I have ever been a part of. No need to train the bird boys, no need to keep count of birds in the field, no need to tell them what you mean by certain terms, no wasted time, and extremely quick about tearing down and setting up the next series! I don't think I lifted a finger other than to take birds from handlers. I applaud them. (Rody Best and his crew worked the Master flight I judged)
> I enjoyed myself so much I am going back again this year. Judging a Master test can be a very exhausting 3 days... They made is a breeze.
> I wish more pros would organize new clubs!


I ran that test. Very impressive organization and what a rarity and pleasure it was to be able to sit and watch from a seat in the gallery!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

rockfish said:


> The Walmart analogy was as stupid of a coment as It gets. I'm the guy throwing those stinky birds working my ass off and never heard a pro say thank you let alone help out. The last time I check I didn't get paid!!!!!


From my limited experience... I know that the pros work their tails off at HT. When I'm heading back to my motel for a hot shower, and dinner, the pros are out in a field airing 20 plus dogs, feeding and airing some more, then gosh only knows what... making phone calls to owners or whatever. Then well after dark they are doing well to get something to eat and hit the sack. 

And I don't know what it's like for others, but the pros that are members of our club... well, they are our cornerstone. We pretty much don't have one and certainly don't have a good double header every spring without them. 

If they also contribute to the lifting and toting at every HT they attend, then God bless them.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

1tulip said:


> From my limited experience... I know that the pros work their tails off at HT. When I'm heading back to my motel for a hot shower, and dinner, the pros are out in a field airing 20 plus dogs, feeding and airing some more, then gosh only knows what... making phone calls to owners or whatever. Then well after dark they are doing well to get something to eat and hit the sack.
> 
> And I don't know what it's like for others, but the pros that are members of our club... well, they are our cornerstone. We pretty much don't have one and certainly don't have a good double header every spring without them.
> 
> If they also contribute to the lifting and toting at every HT they attend, then God bless them.


I think the point people are trying to make is yes pros work their tails off running dogs, feeding, and airing but they do get paid for that. Unless I missed the pro-Bono pro trainer. Some do offer to work, judge, and provide but it is a small minority. The argument is all of the pros should offer something to every HT they attend since their business relies on the events occurring. Last time I checked, most of your board members and volunteers are up the same time as pros and go to bed the same time. The difference is I can't invoice a single minute of that time. Instead, I take vacation from my job to do it!

I use a pro in FTs. They belong to a PRTA that puts on venues in every zone. Most FT pros are pretty good about lending equipment, property, people, etc. then at least I have seen from HT pros. Obviously, there are examples of bad and good from every group. Amateurs in both FT and HT need to also lend a hand.

As already stated: if you don't work you are part of the problem!


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## classact2731 (Apr 23, 2011)

Get out of my head... hahaha. I agree and would add from this workers perspective, there is no difference between a pro that doesn't help and an armature who doesn't help. I want all the active club members to get to run and after that a dog is a dog 90 bucks is 90 bucks to me.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

jrrichar said:


> I think the point people are trying to make is yes pros work their tails off running dogs, feeding, and airing but they do get paid for that. Unless I missed the pro-Bono pro trainer. Some do offer to work, judge, and provide but it is a small minority. The argument is all of the pros should offer something to every HT they attend since their business relies on the events occurring.


Well, OK. Let me ask you what your feeling would be if the boss came up to you on the job and said... "Hey! You know, you wouldn't have this job at all if the company folded... so for the good of Acme Widgets, Inc., you should volunteer to sweep the shop floor after your shift."

Yeah. I doubt you'd consider the value of that suggestion.

On the other hand, wouldn't you think it commendable (if weird) if an employee of Acme Widgets, Inc. spent hours and hours (pro-bono) working their tails off making one of the Widget distributors really successful?

So, I get it if a pro has to ration their time and energy at many of the HT's they attend on the road. I think it is fabulous if they help the club members out at some/most/all of the HT's on their circuit. But it is really in their interests and that of the sport, if they can help their own local clubs become and remain successful.


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## priceskeet (Jun 30, 2008)

1tulip said:


> Well, OK. Let me ask you what your feeling would be if the boss came up to you on the job and said... "Hey! You know, you wouldn't have this job at all if the company folded... so for the good of Acme Widgets, Inc., you should volunteer to sweep the shop floor after your shift."
> 
> Yeah. I doubt you'd consider the value of that suggestion.
> 
> ...


Not talking about Widget sweeping floors. Talking about every one helping a little. pros and amateurs. If it wasn't for amateurs putting on hunt test pros wouldn't have a job. 
Pros make a living doing this. Just asking for people to help a little when they can, pros and amateurs. A lot of pros and amateurs could help at times and don't.
It would make the game better if ever one that could would help!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> Spoken from a pro's perspective!





And your point is?


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> And your point is?


Sorry go fishing somewhere else.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Agree everyone should help. 

So what is a "little pro"?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

rockfish said:


> The Walmart analogy was as stupid of a coment as It gets. I'm the guy throwing those stinky birds working my ass off and never heard a pro say thank you let alone help out. The last time I check I didn't get paid!!!!!





Well I must admit the Walmart analogy is stupid but not any more stupid than expecting an out of town pro that comes to a test with 15 plus dogs to go out there and help. Working your ass off throwing stinky birds? Man that's tough duty! If you don't want to do it take your dog and go home. What's a pro supposed to do, run his dog and stop the test to walk out and say thank you? 9 times out of 10 a pro doesn't even know who is out there throwing birds. Like I said try managing a truck load of dogs at a test and on the road if you want to know what working your ass off is. When you have gone home and washed your poor little hands and had a shower and eaten your diner that pro is still out there working. Your the kind of guy that will not be playing the game in a year or two. You are not being forced to go out there and throw birds you volunteered. If you want to get paid for it go ask one of those pros for a job, they pay bird boys every day. As for the pros not contributing do the math. 15 entries x $85 = $1275. It would take you with your 1 dog 3 years to contribute what he does in one weekend. Yes the pros are out there making a living. All the more reason to leave him alone and let him do his job. He is getting paid but that's not the only reason he is out there. Do you think Payton Manning is still playing football at almost 40 years old just for the money? Hell no, he loves what he is doing and has what is best for the sport in mind.
I'm sure that most before turning pro did a lot of throwing stinky birds for long hours. I spent 4 months throwing stinky birds all day 7 days a week for 30 plus dogs just to get the chance to run my two dogs of which one I was paying that pro $600 a month to train. You probably think I was stupid for doing that but the experience I gained was priceless.
I am a pro but a small time pro. Don't want to be a big time pro, too much work and I'm getting old. At a test or trial I usually have 12 to 15 dogs with me I have to take care of. Not all are competing, some are gun dogs some are puppies but I cant go away for the weekend and leave them at home. In fact I can't go anywhere for more than 10 or 12 hours without dogs, 24/7 365 days a year. Our trial clubs put on 4 trials a year and I usually am working the minor stakes as captain of the guns making sure all the equipment is there and moved and making the test run smooth as possible for the judges and cramming all that equipment in my truck and trailer along with those 15 dogs also running 3 or 4 of those and trying to get small puppies and the other dogs aired before they **** or pee in the truck or trailer. Last year at one of our trials while running the derby we needed a shooter for the flyer with nobody around and John Henninger who probably had close to 25 dogs with him volunteered to go shoot the flyer. His wife Amy was running all the derby dogs but I still was hesitant to ask him to do it. He just said sure no problem. At another trial I ran and managed the derby and while waiting for the open to finish because the same judges were judging the Qual I shot the flyer for the 4th series open. 
So Rockfish either quit your whining and get out there and help or take your dog and go home.


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## priceskeet (Jun 30, 2008)

Sorry Tom meant ever one needs to help a little, pros and amateurs.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> Sorry go fishing somewhere else.





I hate fishing and still don't get your point. Don't see what you have against pros. According to EE it looks like you used one for quite awhile.
I cant believe you people expecting an out of town pro to work at your tests. I work my clubs trials and don't expect visitors to work but when on the road at another club event I expect them to do the work. I will still grab a bag of birds to rebird a gun station or help pickup equipment after a series when on the road if it looks like they need help. All this whining is why I don't care to run hunt tests any more.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Steve Shaver said:


> I hate fishing and still don't get your point. Don't see what you have against pros. According to EE it looks like you used one for quite awhile.
> I cant believe you people expecting an out of town pro to work at your tests. I work my clubs trials and don't expect visitors to work but when on the road at another club event I expect them to do the work. I will still grab a bag of birds to rebird a gun station or help pickup equipment after a series when on the road if it looks like they need help. All this whining is why I don't care to run hunt tests any more.


We sincerely appreciate your diminishing interest in the HT venue.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Very true. I particularly like to offer to take the delivered birds from the judges because it puts me in the best position to view the test and the dogs that run it and how the good handlers strategize the way they pick up the birds. Best seat in the house. It frees up the marshal to do more important things. 

But everyone should offer to help break down equipment when they are finished with one series and moving to another.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> I hate fishing and still don't get your point. Don't see what you have against pros. According to EE it looks like you used one for quite awhile.
> I cant believe you people expecting an out of town pro to work at your tests. I work my clubs trials and don't expect visitors to work but when on the road at another club event I expect them to do the work. I will still grab a bag of birds to rebird a gun station or help pickup equipment after a series when on the road if it looks like they need help. All this whining is why I don't care to run hunt tests any more.


who brought the "out of town Pro" into this discussion? I think you did to bolster your point when the majority of dogs are run by pros at a weekend hunt test, i think it warrants a discussion. Let me be very clear I'm neither pro-pro or anti pro. I have lots of friends that are pros thank goodness NOT ONE OF THEM Have your attitude.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> I hate fishing and still don't get your point. Don't see what you have against pros. According to EE it looks like you used one for quite awhile.
> I cant believe you people expecting an out of town pro to work at your tests. I work my clubs trials and don't expect visitors to work but when on the road at another club event I expect them to do the work. I will still grab a bag of birds to rebird a gun station or help pickup equipment after a series when on the road if it looks like they need help. All this whining is why I don't care to run hunt tests any more.


Oh dear Lord don't suggest that you work your home events for the benefit of others and have them do it for you when you're their guest. Please... that would actually make sense. It can't be a solution.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> Agree everyone should help.
> 
> So what is a "*little pro*"?


Anyone 5'-6" or shorter.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

My original intent was not to bash pros. They are catching a lot of flack simply because they are using the vast majority of the Master entries. Pros do help at a lot of tests, in many different ways. They can and do help with set up, grounds, experienced bird boys and shooters. Their clients judge, marshal and help also.

My problem is with those that never do anything, both pros and amateurs. In my circuit, the same individuals work almost every test. If they aren't working, they are probably judging. A different crew also watches from the gallery and never lifts a finger. They don't work for any club and probably have no club affiliation. They are quick to complain and also quick to disappear when something is needed. They won't shoot, hold a clipboard, hang birds and generally have the attitude that their entry fee is enough. This group is the problem.

Out of town pros are not expected to shoulder the workload. It would be courteous if they would spend 5 minutes thanking the workers that spent all day in the sun. That Steve mentioned that most big pros don't even know who is in the holding blind throwing birds is a perfect illustration. 5 minutes keeps the worker from feeling that they were an unpaid bird boy for pro X. It certainly would be good for PR if they would spend another 10 minutes helping flop series.

My beef with pros is on the judging side. Many will point out the flaws in a test but most will not sit in the chair themselves. Pros spend every day setting up marks and blinds. They have an opportunity to train more dogs in a year than an amateur will in a lifetime. Their experience puts them in a position to set up fair tests, be good time managers and manage people. It is what they do every day. The ones I have seen judge, set up tests I would drive 8 hours to run. Wish more would give back.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Mark, 
Any event or organization that relies on volunteer workers will always have this problem. It is not just hunt tests.

Encouraging help by simply asking..put people right on the spot. 
"Hey, could you run these birds out to station 1? Hey, when the test is done could you take some equipment back to the trailer? Hey, could you throw some birds at station 2 at the next rebird?

Most people will help if asked. Most. Maybe we shouldn't have to ask, but sometimes it is simply the only way to get help


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> who brought the "out of town Pro" into this discussion? I think you did to bolster your point when the majority of dogs are run by pros at a weekend hunt test, i think it warrants a discussion. Let me be very clear I'm neither pro-pro or anti pro. I have lots of friends that are pros thank goodness NOT ONE OF THEM Have your attitude.




Still not sure what YOU THINK my attitude is. Obviously it's not the same as I am thinking. I guess I'm the one that brought the out of town pro into this because out here they are all from out of town but I don't recall it being specified local or out of town just a couple people whining about pros. I'm just very thankful I live west of the Rockies.


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## rhillhouse (Apr 18, 2013)

Yes, pros have their handful but they can assist with tests in other ways. Providing property to train, providing workers, speaking at club events. We are all in this together.


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## Jared McComis (Aug 12, 2013)

Tobias hit the nail on the head. When any event is run at the break even point, volunteers are relied on heavily. When volunteers are the ones making the wheels go around there are never enough arms to do the lifting. 

I know this won't be a popular statement but start charging for these events accordingly, pay the helpers or whatever it takes and opportunities would be more abundant.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

At the end of the day the only one who has a gripe is the club member who did not get their master level dog entered in time. With the worker codes that are available I would estimate that this SHOULD be a very low number. Some folks on these past few forums have never entered a dog in MASTER . I have never had a problem with anyone other than last year (a actual club member) not willing to help out. Our club last year had a 120 dog Master and I only handed out 4 worker codes for non-members, and we did not use them all. One lady came all the way from Texas and planted a blind and worked both days. The test filled in 13 minutes, while our neighbors to the north didn't fill a 60 dog. Every Pro helped out wherever he or she could. Last time I checked, the large pros that are down south are the same folks we have running in the midwest later in the year. See you in August! Some clubs don't have enough ground, and Pros who have ground up here have always given graciously to hold tests, seminars, training days and the like.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

All those things are good and necessary. But if the ONLY thing you can do is buy 20-40 dollars worth of raffle tickets and stick around for the barbecue and drawing, that helps the local club as well. As you all say... we're in this together.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Realistically the club and it's members put on the test, they volunteer, for their dogs, for the club, for everyone, and they don't get paid. But as it is a labor of insanity or love, effort must be made to make the test as easy and heck even pleasant as possible, for them. For every club that's different, but you keep the workers and club members happy. That's priority; otherwise you can't put on a test. Every one else rides on the coat-tail of their work. So if they want a limited they get one, if they want worker spots they get those, if they want BBQ lunch, if they want to bitch you listen, might pour them some whiskey, to quite them  and you always thank them. Neither dog clubs nor hunt tests are profit making endeavors. There will always be givers and always takers; Pro-amatuer doesn't matter. When there becomes too many takers, not enough givers: clubs don't put on tests or adapt how they must to keep their workers happy.

Just me but if my livelihood required using these non-profit endeavors to keep me in business & thus my clients happy, I might take a responsibility to ensure the clubs and worker remained happy


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## rockfish (Apr 19, 2011)

Hunt em up great post the point of this all is it's frustrating to support this sport and not be able to enter a event that you work so hard for


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

rockfish said:


> Hunt em up great post the point of this all is it's frustrating to support this sport and not be able to enter a event that you work so hard for




I agree. Club members should be able to enter their own events. If they cant something is wrong and needs to be fixed and I don't think that should be too hard. It's all because of the Master and Master National. When I started running hunt tests we would have about 25 master dogs, approx. 50 seniors and 60 to 70 juniors dogs. Now we are lucky to have 20 to 25 SR and JR dogs. Things sure have changed.
Hunt'EmUp, just curious, my livelihood doesn't depend on these non profit endeavors as I run very few HT dogs and only 3 or 4 trial dogs but what would you have a pro do to ensure the clubs and their workers are happy?


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## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

in 13 years of marshalling i have never had a pro refuse to help if they had the time and i asked.. 
they've rebirded they've stayed late and manned wingers so we could finish the master test that day
they've held the clipboard while i ran and did other things for a few minutes
the've hung birds etc

not sure where all these unhelpful pros are..maybe nobody thought to ask em for help

ed samples
brentwood tennessee


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> Still not sure what YOU THINK my attitude is. Obviously it's not the same as I am thinking. I guess I'm the one that brought the out of town pro into this because out here they are all from out of town but I don't recall it being specified local or out of town just a couple people whining about pros. I'm just very thankful I live west of the Rockies.



The attitude I was referring to is the thought process that since you entered so many dogs and brought so much money into the club, that the club actually should be grateful because you showed up to run your dogs. Every single dog entered there has paid the same amount to run. There is no budget in that entry fee to pay Marshals, Bird stewards, Flyer Shooters, help to break down and setup equipment, and so on and so on. So If you show up with a 25 dog truck and run in one flight, more than likely there are a potential 25 folks that didn't show up to help. So The way I see it, the pro bears some responsibility for the reduced numbers in the gallery. Would all of them work? Of course not. but some of those missing souls might have worked to help out. So let's just say 3 pros show up to run one stake(I've seen this happen with two pros running 50 plus dogs and they worked their asses off) Who the hell is going to work? 

Our club generally has a bunch of pros show up, some work their tails off. Some don't lift a finger. I've had pros tell me they are not going out to sit in the sun all day and shoot flyers- They had dogs to run. As they sit under a shade tree drinking tea. But not all pros are included in this discussion. Specifically our club is fortunate to have a pro that shoulders most of the load for the entire test from planning thru test day. But I consider him one that gives. But there are a bunch that don't give at all and a bunch that don't judge. 

So you can call this pro bashing. I call it a healthy eye opening discussion.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Tobias said:


> Mark,
> Any event or organization that relies on volunteer workers will always have this problem.
> 
> 
> I deal with this in my ministry. We have 125-150 elementary kids every Wednesday and most parents refuse to volunteer. Had a kid a couple of weeks get tackled on the playground and you'd thought he was beaten black and blue by his moms description. Little did she know that the time this occurred was when their parents were suppose to be supervising them. When ask why she's wasn't out on the playground she then suggested we hire someone else. Way too many consumers in the world today!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> The attitude I was referring to is the thought process that since you entered so many dogs and brought so much money into the club, that the club actually should be grateful because you showed up to run your dogs. Every single dog entered there has paid the same amount to run. There is no budget in that entry fee to pay Marshals, Bird stewards, Flyer Shooters, help to break down and setup equipment, and so on and so on. So If you show up with a 25 dog truck and run in one flight, more than likely there are a potential 25 folks that didn't show up to help. So The way I see it, the pro bears some responsibility for the reduced numbers in the gallery. Would all of them work? Of course not. but some of those missing souls might have worked to help out. So let's just say 3 pros show up to run one stake(I've seen this happen with two pros running 50 plus dogs and they worked their asses off) Who the hell is going to work?
> 
> Our club generally has a bunch of pros show up, some work their tails off. Some don't lift a finger. I've had pros tell me they are not going out to sit in the sun all day and shoot flyers- They had dogs to run. As they sit under a shade tree drinking tea. But not all pros are included in this discussion. Specifically our club is fortunate to have a pro that shoulders most of the load for the entire test from planning thru test day. But I consider him one that gives. But there are a bunch that don't give at all and a bunch that don't judge.
> 
> So you can call this pro bashing. I call it a healthy eye opening discussion.





That's not my attitude at all. I am so far from being arrogant enough to think that the club should be graced with my presents it aint funny. Our club pays bird boys. Maybe your club should look at trying to do things to make more money to pay for bird boy. A raffle with donated items, maybe those pros could do a seminar and donate their time and club keeps the money. If you have that many people involved in HT back there it doesn't seem it would be hard to generate enough to pay bird boys at a test. We often have a tip or donation jar in the holding blind.
My attitude is if a pro shows up with 25 plus dog when the hell does he have time to help???? Don't think he would have time to sit in the shade and drink tea. First off the guy is insane for having 25 dogs in one stake. Getting back to the cash a pro like that brings in. Seems to me and I know it's easier said than done but the money that those big trucks bring in could pay for extra judges and added flights. What's going on with the Master Amateur thing? seems to me that would help in your situation.
Things are different out here. If we didn't have out of town pros come in we wouldn't have much of a test. Hard for me to understand that there are so many people willing to pay a pro to run a hunt test dog. Don't know what the answer is but bottom line is a club member that wants to enter a test that their own club puts on should be able to do so. Are those pros dues paying club members?


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

just me said:


> in 13 years of marshalling i have never had a pro refuse to help if they had the time and i asked..
> they've rebirded they've stayed late and manned wingers so we could finish the master test that day
> they've held the clipboard while i ran and did other things for a few minutes
> the've hung birds etc
> ...


Unfortunately I have at a double master test I marshaled at the Cattle Ranch a few years ago. About 3-4 pros hanging around after the test and workers needed a ride back to HQ to make the bus out. They were asked several times to help and just sat in their trucks.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> That's not my attitude at all. I am so far from being arrogant enough to think that the club should be graced with my presents it aint funny. Our club pays bird boys. Maybe your club should look at trying to do things to make more money to pay for bird boy. A raffle with donated items, maybe those pros could do a seminar and donate their time and club keeps the money. If you have that many people involved in HT back there it doesn't seem it would be hard to generate enough to pay bird boys at a test. We often have a tip or donation jar in the holding blind.
> My attitude is if a pro shows up with 25 plus dog when the hell does he have time to help???? Don't think he would have time to sit in the shade and drink tea. First off the guy is insane for having 25 dogs in one stake. Getting back to the cash a pro like that brings in. Seems to me and I know it's easier said than done but the money that those big trucks bring in could pay for extra judges and added flights. What's going on with the Master Amateur thing? seems to me that would help in your situation.
> Things are different out here. If we didn't have out of town pros come in we wouldn't have much of a test. Hard for me to understand that there are so many people willing to pay a pro to run a hunt test dog. Don't know what the answer is but bottom line is a club member that wants to enter a test that their own club puts on should be able to do so. Are those pros dues paying club members?


Steve, It's interesting that perspective changes depending on the demand. We would probably or I will say maybe we would fill up if pros didn't come with the large trucks. I understand not all clubs fill up in 3 minutes so they welcome the pros. I get that. But regardless, for every dog that goes to the line, there is an added amount of work. Our bird boys are paid, so they don't affect the bird boys. So for every dog that goes to the line there is a responsibility to give some back to the community at large. What is really not important is how they do it. Hanging birds after the test, Helping with the judges dinner, picking up judges at the airport , planning the event, showing up on Fri to help set up tests, shooting flyers, delivering birds at 6 am to the stakes. It all has to be done. So it really doesn't matter if you run 1 or 25 dogs. you have some debt to pay to make a volunteer system work. my point has been all along if someone runs 20 dogs pro or amateur, they have a commensurate amount of debt to the community at large. Unfortunately its often times that a guy with one or two dogs give back x 100. and there are 90 % who give nothing. It works the the same with pros and amateurs.

So please don't take this as a pro bash, cause it's not. AMs need to get off their Asses too. But pros certainly have a higher debt load in our 100% volunteer hunt test program. And a pro that does nothing, I hope his ears burn. I think it should be addressed at the PRTA level. This is their livelihood but what the hell do I know? 

Steve, thanks for the opportunity to discuss this. I appreciate it. 

Mark's whole thread was to get people to recognize the need for folks to help Pro and Am. So thanks Mark!

BTW FTs or HTs it's all the same.


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## SWIPER (Sep 24, 2006)

What people need to get away from, is blaming the pros for entering and not being able to help or bringing someone to help, isn't the problem.
1 ) The PROBLEM is how the pro's are entering. ( multiple dogs 5 - 20+ at one time )
2) Need to have the OWNER of the dog enter the dog or dogs. ( NOT THE CO-OWNER or TRAINER )
3) EVERYONE has a FAIR chance to enter.
4) If you don't get in it's no ones fault.

This event was made for the average person to better their hunting dog to conserve game, enjoy training and competing on weekends with friends or meeting new people to enjoy what they enjoy.
Clubs need the pros as much as the pros need the clubs.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

SWIPER said:


> What people need to get away from, is blaming the pros for entering and not being able to help or bringing someone to help, isn't the problem.
> 1 ) The PROBLEM is how the pro's are entering. ( multiple dogs 5 - 20+ at one time )
> 2) Need to have the OWNER of the dog enter the dog or dogs. ( NOT THE CO-OWNER or TRAINER )
> 3) EVERYONE has a FAIR chance to enter.
> ...


Well said Tom. It is inconceivable that "some" pros can always enter their entire trucks without some advantage, and that would likely fall under unsportsmanlike. That is the crux of the issue.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

SWIPER said:


> What people need to get away from, is blaming the pros for entering and not being able to help or bringing someone to help, isn't the problem.
> 1 ) The PROBLEM is how the pro's are entering. ( multiple dogs 5 - 20+ at one time )
> 2) Need to have the OWNER of the dog enter the dog or dogs. ( NOT THE CO-OWNER or TRAINER )
> 3) EVERYONE has a FAIR chance to enter.
> ...


Swiper, Just commenting would like to hear what others say.

Yes # 1 you should address this with RHTAC. contact the RHTAC Committee and propose a change. It seems this should get a lot of support let's get it done.
# 2 just have a handler only enter one dog at a time. 

Really this isn't going to solve the problem. It's just going to spread the misery evenly throughout the handlers. We won't solve this until we figure out how to provide more capacity in the regions that need it and at the right time of the year. Ironically the new Master Amateur, because it's staggered in the spring, is going to assure there is demand all year long. And more capacity is going to require more workers.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Steve Shaver said:


> Hunt'EmUp, just curious, my livelihood doesn't depend on these non profit endeavors as I run very few HT dogs and only 3 or 4 trial dogs but what would you have a pro do to ensure the clubs and their workers are happy?


Do what the FT pros do, send Bird boys down to work the tests, even if they are not running. I've seen FT Pros do this over and over. Paying bird boys to go work another trial when the trainer wasn't even running that event. Also FT Pros have their own association-club, and they put on their own trials, usually multiple trials a year. Other F.T. Pros have their own individual club, they are associated with, they pay membership dues, they might even be in a board position, and when the clubs test comes around they take positions to help organize those events, usually utilizing the pros land and facilities. At the least, I would hope HT pros, bring their clients to the raffle and BBQ dinner, put some money into the club and socialize rather than running off with their ribbons, or running off home ASAP, and expecting the club to mail the ribbons, as soon as "their" dogs are done. What about transporting some trash on Sun., or picking something up to go in the back of a trailer at the last stake they are at for the day, helping to organize birds, hauling off the crappy ones on Sat. Night. Once a stake is complete for the day, everyone's done and thus everyone has an equal opportunity to help clean up. Say what you want about needing to air-feed dogs, workers got to air-feed dogs too; and usually won't be able to do it until well after dark, after they clean-up from all those festivities. Not going to the raffle and not socializing, pisses the workers off, oh sure we've worked all day for you and you can't even come and talk to us or support the club. How about sponsoring the BBQ, or putting it on, even if the club pays for the food, having a couple of clients do the cooking and clean up. Saw a FT Pro in Idaho do that, great food and the workers were very HAPPY, to throw him his birds.

Point is anyone can help, even if they are busy running dogs most of the day, there's always work before the test and after the test is done. It's personal choice on whether your a giver or a taker. But some one taking more entries, utilizing more resources and not attempting to give back is always gonna be seen as more of an issue, especially when said person is making an income off the use of those resources.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp, well said. . Every club has the same issues with just a few workers. We do hire bird throwers, mostly scouts or high school teams. But they are not around at the end of each day to help. Our club uses public grounds so we cannot leave out all equip at the end of the day. All forget that on Sunday evening it is not done, trailer needs to be loaded, trash hauled, birds done away with. We have a fairly nice size club in numbers only. Always the same few staying behind no matter how many times it is brought up a meetings. You cannot force anyone to work. Who ever said , just ask someone to do something at that time is correct. That is the only way to get some up and moving. New members are not sure what to do and unless you actually go to them and tell them what is needed, they will just stand back and watch. I am one of the ones that no matter what club, or where I do help where needed. I am not a member of any of the clubs that use the cattle ranch, but you can bet I get handed a clip board more times than not if I am running. Most pros down south do help. Ronnie Lee will shoot flyers anywhere he is needed, I watched Ray Shanks help set up on Friday, marshal all day than go in and cook judges dinner. That is all at the same time as running 20 master dogs. This just goes to show if the pro wants to help they will.


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## Camo9244 (Jan 15, 2015)

fishduck said:


> As per schedule, we are seeing the newest crop of Master rants involving individuals that didn't get into a test. This problem has been adequately documented and solutions have been discussed ad nauseum. There is plenty of energy and time devoted to this. Not trying to provoke 15 million responses crucifying the Master National, AKC, Entry Express and all the other satanic cults keeping people from entering tests. Instead the focus of my thread is to cause some introspection.
> 
> Here are the facts regarding most hunt tests. A very small group of individuals does all the work. The work starts months before the test and culminates in a 48 hour frenzy of activity. That crew is overworked and under appreciated. They field complaints, try to be at 3 places at once and generally keep things rolling.
> 
> ...


 Threw flyers for yall on one series and dead birds on another for yall last season. If I get that way this season I will gladly help!!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Camo9244 said:


> Threw flyers for yall on one series and dead birds on another for yall last season. If I get that way this season I will gladly help!!


Thank you!!!! Any and all help is greatly appreciated. 

I have called on folks at tests so much that I have seen the gallery flush like a covey of quail at my approach. The only ones embarrassed by this thread will be the takers. To be truthful, the thought of them squirming makes me smile. The discussion also provoked some thought on how much someone utilizes the resource vs how much they give back. I think that conversation is healthy for the game.

It has truly been my pleasure to watch both pros and ams come together to make a test happen. I have seen first hand the amount of dedication and hard work put on by many of those posting in this thread. My original post was meant to call out those who don't help and encourage them to become part of the process.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Karen Klotthor said:


> Hunt'EmUp, well said. . Every club has the same issues with just a few workers. We do hire bird throwers, mostly scouts or high school teams. But they are not around at the end of each day to help. Our club uses public grounds so we cannot leave out all equip at the end of the day. All forget that on Sunday evening it is not done, trailer needs to be loaded, trash hauled, birds done away with. We have a fairly nice size club in numbers only. Always the same few staying behind no matter how many times it is brought up a meetings. You cannot force anyone to work. Who ever said , just ask someone to do something at that time is correct. That is the only way to get some up and moving. New members are not sure what to do and unless you actually go to them and tell them what is needed, they will just stand back and watch. I am one of the ones that no matter what club, or where I do help where needed. I am not a member of any of the clubs that use the cattle ranch, but you can bet I get handed a clip board more times than not if I am running. Most pros down south do help. Ronnie Lee will shoot flyers anywhere he is needed, I watched Ray Shanks help set up on Friday, marshal all day than go in and cook judges dinner. That is all at the same time as running 20 master dogs. This just goes to show if the pro wants to help they will.


UMMMM Karen can you come to Atlanta in April?


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## jax4mxb (Nov 9, 2010)

Mark brings up a great point. I can address this from the prospective of a club president and as a pro trainer. First of all, as long as this sports is run by volunteers we will always have a few pulling the burden for the majority. But, I have found that through communication and education, many people will help out when ask. As club presidents we must continually recruit new folks to the sport. I believe the average life of a participant is 4.5 years. We must work to keep the pool full by encouraging new folks to get involved. If you continue to rely on the some folks they will get burned out. Pros are just like the rest of the world. You will have some givers and takers. Putting on an event is a heck of a lot of work. I would encourage anyone who hasn't been involved to jump in.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Kyle, sorry, Mark has already recruited me for April. Actually judging instead of clip board marshaling. If we had a dog ready to run we might come up. She is just not ready yet.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Nick Toti said:


> I find it very interesting that the only focus on restriction/percentage/limit that has been *implemented* is on how many workers' dogs can be entered. I understand that it was put in place to help the workers, but why a limit or such a small one? Did someone decide that the club only needs 15% of the field helping at the test? Give the clubs the discretion for # of workers and whatever is left over the free loaders can fight over.


Nick I have started a thread on 15% issues. Please weigh in on that thread please.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

replies in red.



SWIPER said:


> This event was made for the average person to better their hunting dog to conserve game, enjoy training and competing on weekends with friends or meeting new people to enjoy what they enjoy. _YES_, I don't know why or if pros would be concerned about the loss of business if all hunt tests were amateur handler only. They would probably have more business due to the fact that they would still be training those dogs, but they would also be spending time (and charging for it) to train the owner/handler.
> Clubs need the pros as much as the pros need the clubs. Here, I disagree (at least based upon my experience, which does not include states outside of AK). The NAHRA club up here (Alaska) does pretty well without having to 'depend' on pros entering/handling dogs.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

As I see it, there are 4 groups of people who have an active stake in hunt tests; three of which claim to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Those are:

1) Volunteers, judges, club members etc etc.who may or may not run dogs

2) Amateurs of varying degrees of entusiam, from some JH handles who don't know the front end of a duck to the back end to the hard core road warriors who are constant risk of breaking out into dog speak w/o warning.

3) Profesionals of varying degrees of professionalism, courtesy, gratitude etc. I know many who give back their time working their club's events and forego clients' dogs or give up a rare w/e off to spend another w/e on the road judging.

Seems to me, nobody talks about the 4th group, who, if they are not already a majority will become so soon. Somebody owns all those dogs on the pro's trucks. All those people "take" from the hunt tests without giving back anymore than the entry fees paid by participants, volunteers etc

Anybody thought of a way to ummm... tax these folks. Perhaps a steep surcharge on entries offset by credits you earn by participating at another test. Perhaps, one credit for chunking birds for an am. 3 credits for judging, etc etc. Perhaps buy entry preference at ee using your credits (not someone elses'!) All sorts of possibilities and levels the playing field somewhat. Don't know how to police it, but someone else may have a bright idea.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Hmm a dog tax on multiple master entries.... 
First 3 dogs enter at regular price $85 4th dog entered costs $90, 5th costs 95, 6th costs $100, 7th costs $105, 8th $110, 9th $115, 10th $120, 11th $125, 12th $130, 13th $135, 14th $140, 15th $145, 16th $150, 17th $155, 18th $160, 19th $165, 20th $170, 21st $175, 22nd $180, etc

A pro that brings 23 master dogs to a master test would pay an extra $1050 in entries, well actually his clients would pay an extra $45 ...

Ok maybe not $5 steps but $3 steps would work out enough to pay for workers needed because less volunteers are at test ..

Ok just kidding but fun to do the math..


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Professionals assume the responsibility when they charge handling fee at a hunt test. In my mind the owner is off the hook when he makes a deal to have his dog handled.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Agree Kyle


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kyle Bertram said:


> Professionals assume the responsibility when they charge handling fee at a hunt test. In my mind the owner is off the hook when he makes a deal to have his dog handled.





I'm sorry but I have a hard time understanding this. The guy that forks out the cash is off the hook because he pays for it but the professional is there working and doing his job he is on the hook to help? First of all to me unless the pro is a member of the club he has 0 responsibility to help at all. If they volunteer that is fine but that is entirely up to them and I would not hold it against them if they didn't. Putting on a test is the responsibility of the club not the participants. I would not invite a friend to dinner and expect them to do the cooking. Seems as some don't understand the word volunteer. A pro that comes to a test and sits in the shade and drinks tea is no worse than a volunteer that volunteers and then complains about it. Believe me I know there is a lot of work involved in putting on a test and it is always just a few that does all the work but that needs to be worked out between the club members. Still I'm not sure I'm understanding this. Do you feel that a guest is obligated to help because they put an extra burden on the club?


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## Camo9244 (Jan 15, 2015)

red devil said:


> As I see it, there are 4 groups of people who have an active stake in hunt tests; three of which claim to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Those are:
> 
> 1) Volunteers, judges, club members etc etc.who may or may not run dogs
> 
> ...


I think you need to be taxed for being an IDIOT and a CRY BABY!! Who elected you HITLER of the dog world!!


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)




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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> I'm sorry but I have a hard time understanding this. The guy that forks out the cash is off the hook because he pays for it but the professional is there working and doing his job he is on the hook to help? First of all to me unless the pro is a member of the club he has 0 responsibility to help at all. If they volunteer that is fine but that is entirely up to them and I would not hold it against them if they didn't. Putting on a test is the responsibility of the club not the participants. I would not invite a friend to dinner and expect them to do the cooking. Seems as some don't understand the word volunteer. A pro that comes to a test and sits in the shade and drinks tea is no worse than a volunteer that volunteers and then complains about it. Believe me I know there is a lot of work involved in putting on a test and it is always just a few that does all the work but that needs to be worked out between the club members. Still I'm not sure I'm understanding this. Do you feel that a guest is obligated to help because they put an extra burden on the club?


This attitude is a major cause of the 60 dog Master test.


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> I'm sorry but I have a hard time understanding this. The guy that forks out the cash is off the hook because he pays for it but the professional is there working and doing his job he is on the hook to help? First of all to me unless the pro is a member of the club he has 0 responsibility to help at all. If they volunteer that is fine but that is entirely up to them and I would not hold it against them if they didn't. Putting on a test is the responsibility of the club not the participants. I would not invite a friend to dinner and expect them to do the cooking. Seems as some don't understand the word volunteer. A pro that comes to a test and sits in the shade and drinks tea is no worse than a volunteer that volunteers and then complains about it. Believe me I know there is a lot of work involved in putting on a test and it is always just a few that does all the work but that needs to be worked out between the club members. Still I'm not sure I'm understanding this. Do you feel that a guest is obligated to help because they put an extra burden on the club?



I'm sorry you don't understand.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

fishduck said:


> This attitude is a major cause of the 60 dog Master test.





No it's not my attitude that causes a 60 dog master it is the master national that causes this. 
I'm tired of trying to be diplomatic about this so I'll just come right out and say I think this is bulls#!t. If I'm working a test there aint no way I'm going to ask a guest at my test to help. If they volunteer that is awesome but I aint askin them. It is the clubs responsibility and if you don't have enough club members to step up and help put it on then you shouldn't be doing it. Yes club members are volunteers and bust their butt to put on a test and I have a ton of respect for that but if you don't like it don't volunteer.
I know there are some pros that are arrogant a$$#!es and some of you are probably thinking I'm one of them but that aint true. All this whining and complaining about the Master tests just sours me from wanting to go run a HT. I started just wanting to train my gun dog then got involved in HT and loved it and at that time thought field trial people were the biggest a holes in the world boy was I wrong. I would travel 200 miles to run a field trial and possibly go out in the first series before I'd go 20 miles to run a hunt test where coming home with a ribbon is pretty close to a sure thing. All I see at *MOST* HT is people that aint got a clue about what they are doing and then complaining about it or judges setting up stupid tests. I've run under plenty of judges from junior to master that have no clue about dogs or dog work or setting up a test. *Now I'm not saying all are like this but if the shoe fits wear. *I see this all too often, often enough to give me this attitude. I must say that there are also plenty that I have a lot of respect for and would jump at the chance to run their test.
You don't hear all this bull$#!t at a trial. Sure there are idiots where ever you go but for the most part a field trial is soo much more relaxed and well run. If I am marshalling at a trial and need to run my dog I will have the next 5 or 6 people all lined up and set the clipboard down and go get my dog or I could hand it to just about anyone there and they would take it if necessary. Marshalling a minor stake can be a pain when you have everything lined up and running smooth when here comes a pro with multiple dogs that you need to fit in. Those pros are the easiest people to deal with because they understand whats going. They will just check in and ask where do you want me and when and are VERY cooperative.
Think what you want of me I really don't care but I still think asking a guest to come work at your test is just as bad as someone, pro or amateur that wont help that could. *IT IS THE CLUB AND IT'S MEMBERS RESPONSIBILITY TO PUT ON THE TEST NOT THE GUESTS. *If that's not possible then something is wrong and it's not the fault of the pro that brings 20 dogs to run the test. Lets back up a step. It was mentioned that the guys that pay the pros to run their dogs are off the hook and by paying the pro it puts the responsibility on the pros shoulders to help. Now that's almost as much Bu!!$#it as my Walmart analogy. This is actually the root of the whole problem along with the advent of the master national. I would guess that it's an ego thing but I don't understand why a guy would pay a pro all that money to train and run a HT and I think it is an ego thing on the pros side to want to do it. For a pro it is much easier and less stressful to just train gun dogs. Any guy that really wants a dog that can run and pass a master test can do this himself with even a decent dog in his spare time. Well suns coming out so I guess I'll go play with my dogs rather than wasting my time here.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Steve, we can easily agree on one point. We would both rather be training dogs!

My point has not been to berate pros or anyone else but to encourage everyone to help. Help is always appreciated but many don't. Volunteers can get overwhelmed quickly. A few minutes helping break down stakes or a quick "Thank you" never caused any pro or am lasting pain. The overwhelmed often simply find something else to do the next time a test is held. This causes a system where a new influx of workers is constantly required or the tests simply keep getting smaller.

Complaints about judges have been rampant since the game began. The complainers often won't sit in the chair themselves. It is a small thing IMHO to ask someone to give back a weekend or two a year to judge. Take a look at your local circuit on the AKC judges search. You will see many that are inactive (not ran a test in 7 years), some without a recent judges test or seminar, and possibly even a few that are deceased. If attempting to "push" handlers to judge makes me a "whiner" then go ahead and label me. I will readily admit my guilt.

"*IT IS THE CLUB AND IT'S MEMBERS RESPONSIBILITY TO PUT ON THE TEST NOT THE GUESTS *". That quote bothers me more than anything you have said. In this model there is no longer a place for an unlimited test because no club had unlimited personnel. The unlimited model has worked in the past and is still working now. It certainly may mean that judges, marshals, shooters, lunch delivery, ect, etc, etc may not be club members. Almost certainly it will be a group effort but it certainly can and does work. Seen it firsthand.

It has always been my belief that if handlers would help the overwhelmed volunteers, clubs would open extra flights. Maybe I am too optimistic. Maybe no one cares. But every time I have ever been in a bind, someone always steps up to pull my chestnuts out of the fire. Sometimes they are nearing well done when it happens but help has always arrived.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I've said "*IT IS THE CLUB AND IT'S MEMBERS RESPONSIBILITY TO PUT ON THE TEST NOT THE GUESTS" *myself a few times...

This weekend we put on a test, we don't run dogs and all the members of other clubs along with the general public come and run it. They are our guests...

Next weekend another club puts on a test... they don't run dogs... they host those of us who hosted them last week...

If you don't have enough active members in your club to put on a test you hire people and charge accordingly... maybe your club folds into other clubs as a result...

If we all went with the "host/guest" concept things would be very different.

And before someone asks/accuses - I spend two days sun up to sun down a year volunteering for my home club... and I don't run a dog in our club test


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> I've said "*IT IS THE CLUB AND IT'S MEMBERS RESPONSIBILITY TO PUT ON THE TEST NOT THE GUESTS" *myself a few times...
> 
> This weekend we put on a test, we don't run dogs and all the members of other clubs along with the general public come and run it. They are our guests...
> 
> ...


*BUT,* Poll the handlers and find out how many *DO NOT belong to clubs* before you make such absolute statements. i would venture better than 60% accross the country as an average.

sucks when all you are is the guest


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

Golddogs said:


> *BUT,* Poll the handlers and find out how many *DO NOT belong to clubs* before you make such absolute statements. i would venture better than 60% accross the country as an average.
> 
> sucks when all you are is the guest


The rules require clubs be members of MNRC & MARC to participate. 
Wondering what would happen to club membership if handlers had to affiliate ?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I've said "*IT IS THE CLUB AND IT'S MEMBERS RESPONSIBILITY TO PUT ON THE TEST NOT THE GUESTS" *myself a few times...
> 
> This weekend we put on a test, we don't run dogs and all the members of other clubs along with the general public come and run it. They are our guests...
> 
> ...


This is really not a new concept. I was told FT clubs did this at one time.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Our club has put on tests with 3 full Master flights for years. It makes for long hard weekends plus all the pre test planning, etc. but we do so to try to give the dog community the most we can do. On top of the three flights of Master dogs, we will have 2 flights of Juniors each day and two (sometimes 3) flights of Seniors on Sunday.

Our club has under 9 dogs running in Masters. It would be a lot easier on us to offer only one flight of Master. That would give enough early entry codes for all the club dogs. And we could offer the one flight of 60 twice per weekend with one test starting on Friday. Do that with the Junior and Senior tests twice a year...and our club dogs have a shot at 4 passes. I think AKC has OKed a 3rd set of events, if that is the case we could provide guaranteed entry for our Master dogs at 6 events per year.


Sure would be easier to work a test with 120 less dogs. Some of us might like sitting under a shade tree sipping sweet tea with the check writers.

This game only works if everybody helps. If everybody takes the attitude that I don't have to work....I paid my entry fee and I'm paying someone to handle my dog, so I don't have to join a club.....Because I'm not a member of the club, I don't have to help take down equipment, move the test for the next series, or help with rebirding..... If everybody takes that attitude the events will collapse under the strain or the clubs might decide that running just enough flights to cover what their members need is enough.

Then where will all the rest of the dogs run?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I agree with Steve. It's the club's problem not the people running dogs. I quit running HT because of the Master National and what it did to weekend hunt tests. I am not a member of a club but have let it be known I am available to help with prior notice. I have been gunning and helping at trials and tests since 1989. I got asked if I could help at a hunt test last year.Told them I was available after noon. Was asked to go the the Master. Drove over an hour and got there and said "we're all done.Not my responsibility to let people know.Up to the person who asked." Guess how I am going to answer if they need help?


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

It Is The Clubs Responsability to Put On The Test Not The Guests....
I like that. 
I shall quit the clubs I belong to and I can just be a guest 
If they ask me for help I can look offended and say "But I am your guest and you are putting on the test for me. Now run along and don't bother me while I sip my tea under this tree.." 

Much better than my old way of thinking that we are all part of the retriever community and are all working together at what we enjoy...I used to be such an idiot that way.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Golddogs said:


> *BUT,* Poll the handlers and find out how many *DO NOT belong to clubs* before you make such absolute statements. i would venture better than 60% accross the country as an average.
> 
> sucks when all you are is the guest


That could be fixed.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thomas D said:


> This is really not a new concept. I was told FT clubs did this at one time.


Pretty sure that's how the whole thing started Tom. In those days though, decorum was much more important to people.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

The host/guest model no longer works, I'm not sure it ever really ever did. With the traveling pro - there are just too many guests, that never do their share of hosting! 

I ran my 1st HT in 1991, at the Madison, retriever club. I was running Junior, but spent a lot of time at Master. The only thing running the second day was Doug Lindemer was one of the Master judges. Ray Muth was running Master and in the gallery. As he had a shirt with his name and Master judge embroidered on it, so I asked him what was going on, He took me under his wing explaining the tests, what the objective was, and what the judges were looking for. There was about 150 dogs running junior and about 35 running Master. There were only a handful of pros running dogs, and most of the owners were also there, and members of Madison retriever club or other local WI clubs. 

Master was the only thing running on the 2nd day. I was camped at the clubhouse grounds, and stayed the next day just to watch Master. As, they were short on help to finish the water test, I was volunteered to help. I threw a bird on the bog and then planted a water blind, using one of the club's little boats for about half the master dogs, until I was relieved by a club member.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Pretty sure that's how the whole thing started Tom. In those days though, decorum was much more important to people.


Not really. Most clubs that hosted rettiever trials were made up of hunters, and retriever enthusiasts that never ran trials otther than sanctioned club trials. The trials were a big deal. Some of the dogs running had been written up in LIFE magazine or Sports illustrated. They were there to see the dogs and for the "tailgate party". There was a lot more fun, and a lot less work involved with putting on a trial!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks for the historical perspective Doug.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> It Is The Clubs Responsability to Put On The Test Not The Guests....
> I like that.
> I shall quit the clubs I belong to and I can just be a guest
> If they ask me for help I can look offended and say "But I am your guest and you are putting on the test for me. Now run along and don't bother me while I sip my tea under this tree.."
> ...


It is exactly the same thing, only it doesn't seem to match your thought process so you ridicule it.

We put on tests because we are all part of the retriever community and our club wants to do our part so that others in the community can come run and not have to do all the work that weekend and we will not have to do all the work when it is their test.

With your attitude, we would not put on the test, just run others.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

DoubleHaul said:


> It is exactly the same thing, only it doesn't seem to match your thought process so you ridicule it.
> 
> We put on tests because we are all part of the retriever community and our club wants to do our part so that others in the community can come run and not have to do all the work that weekend and we will not have to do all the work when it is their test.
> 
> With your attitude, we would not put on the test, just run others.


Sarcasm just does not seem to work on the internet.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Good Dogs said:


> Sarcasm just does not seem to work on the internet.


I got the sarcasm--you know me, I always get the sarcasm 

I just think they are both very valid ways of looking at the whole process--basically two sides of the same 'giving back to the game' coin.

Nobody is going to turn down help from a non club member at a HT, of course, it is always appreciated. However the vast majority of amateurs who run a weekend HT don't lift a finger and many throw out their elbow patting themselves on the back for taking two minutes to bag some birds prior to a rebird. Why not try to look at as if they should not have to do this, as our guests for the weekend? Most of the work takes place prior to the event anyway and certainly few outside the club help with that.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> It Is The Clubs Responsability to Put On The Test Not The Guests....
> I like that*.
> I shall quit the clubs I belong to and I can just be a guest *
> If they ask me for help I can look offended and say "But I am your guest and you are putting on the test for me. Now run along and don't bother me while I sip my tea under this tree.."
> ...





If that's the way you look at you still are.
I just cant believe this whole thread, it blows my mind. Come run our test and I will personally set up your chair with an umbrella and hand you the beverage of your choice and if anyone asks you to work I'll kick their ass. That's just the way I see it. That's my way of doing my share and I would expect you to do the same for me, less the exaggeration. No I take that back I was born in Pomona and lived in LaVerne until I was old enough to tell mom I was leaving and I aint been back in 42 years so I sure don't think I will be coming to Chino to run a HT.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> No I take that back I was born in Pomona and lived in LaVerne until I was old enough to tell mom I was leaving and I aint been back in 42 years so I sure don't think I will be coming to Chino to run a HT.


Thanks for the chuckle Steve. I enjoyed that one..


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