# Line breed or outcross?



## mike olson (Aug 11, 2009)

I just got my ofa results back on my 2.5year old blf and the hips are good and elbows are normal. Iam aways from wanting to breed her but I am starting to look for possible studs. She won 2 derbies and got a 4th in another to make the list. Some of her traits that I really like is her consistant attitude in training and on trial day. She is very quiet but very intense. Some of the comments I have been told are She gets in a bad spot and makes a great decision and she just knows were to go. Some of the things I am not a huge fan of is she really dosent care for other other dogs and not really the best looking dog I have ever seen. The size of the stud will be important because she only weighs #40. I dont want to go to small or to big. Check out her ped and let me know what would be be a good stud to magnify the level headed intensity she has. Her name is Olsons High Voltage "Zap" in case the link I put in doesn't work.

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=80926

Thanks Mike


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

How many has she entered?


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I'd consider

FC AFC GUNSTOCK'S TOPSHELF SNAP DECISION 

FC AFC LANES LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE

 FC AFC WINDY CITY'S MIGHTY MOUSE

Btw, I co-owned Cali until she was about 3. Sweet dog with a ton of desire and talent. I think she was held back by my training.


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm very happy with my Mickey pups Charles, one of them in the avatar, 13 months , thinking Code Blue and Carbon in there would work well. Lots of ways to go mike with a stud, studied your pedigree I definitely like Ford in there. Your girl seems to be on her way, still curious to know how many she's run. Hard choice to pull her out to whelp a litter, now or even down the road a couple years, Good Luck !


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

To get the traits from your pups that you want, it is always best to find the dog in your line that exemplified those traits. The only way to try to magnify those traits chances of coming out. In outcrossing you may very well get a better dog through hybrid vigor. But that may be the end of the line for breeding. Can also be useful to introduce new traits. My dog is an outcrossing but both parents were line bred. And her lineage is similar to my males on her sire side in the event I want to breed them. 
Hope this helps a bit. I sure am no expert but it's what I do know about the subject. Plenty on here know way more than me.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

quackaholic said:


> To get the traits from your pups that you want, it is always best to find the dog in your line that exemplified those traits. The only way to try to magnify those traits chances of coming out. In outcrossing you may very well get a better dog through hybrid vigor. But that may be the end of the line for breeding. Can also be useful to introduce new traits. My dog is an outcrossing but both parents were line bred. And her lineage is similar to my males on her sire side in the event I want to breed them.
> Hope this helps a bit. I sure am no expert but it's what I do know about the subject. Plenty on here know way more than me.


What are you talking about, hybrid vigor? He's not talking about breeding his Lab to another breed.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

That's what you get when you outcross and the pups come out great in spite of breeding blind. They may even come out better than parents. Maybe you get the wrong idea but it's common terminology among breeders of beagles and other hounds. I believe when I was young it was even brought to light by some of the old pointer breeders in our field trial circles.


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## mike olson (Aug 11, 2009)

Zap started her derby career at 16 months she ran 12 derbies in her career. She is with Clint Mann in Texas we are planning to hit some Q's early in the spring and hopefully running AA in the summer and beyond.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Then what do you mean by this? "In outcrossing you may very well get a better dog through hybrid vigor. But that may be the end of the line for breeding." Why?


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## mike olson (Aug 11, 2009)

windwalkers swan song said:


> I'm very happy with my Mickey pups Charles, one of them in the avatar, 13 months , thinking Code Blue and Carbon in there would work well. Lots of ways to go mike with a stud, studied your pedigree I definitely like Ford in there. Your girl seems to be on her way, still curious to know how many she's run. Hard choice to pull her out to whelp a litter, now or even down the road a couple years, Good Luck !


You are right about stopping to breed, It is way more fun to run dogs than raise em.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Mike, if you can get to some trials (maybe you do, I have no idea), watch as many dogs as you can, pick the ones you like, look them up, check out their record and health clearances, see how that potential pedigree matches up with your female's, see if it follows any other similar successful "nicks", contact others who have bred dogs you yourself have seen and liked, have been successful in the field you want to run, etc. You won't get any negatives on a public forum and you need to know the negatives of a potential stud/breeding just as much as you need to know the positives. Ask lots of questions, temperament, physical issues, all come into play, especially when you have a female that's already lacking size and has a temperament issue with other dogs maybe. Lots of studs look great on paper, but dig deeper.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Sometimes the traits that come out in pups are good but the recessive genes come out when they are bred. Not always. Just sometimes. I used to breed beagles by outcross that made excellent rabbit dogs. But absolutely had awful pups. Thus the end of the line. But as long as the original parents are bred. Fine pups


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Unfortunately hybrid vigor seems to be attributed to animals such a labradoodles. Which in the day was not even the question. Lol


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Quack- I hear you. Labs aren't like bulldogs hounds and pointers. When I look at the pedigrees they all look scatterbred. People don't keep strains or family lines if dogs in this breed so much as they do the others mentioned. That being the case you won't see the expected "hybrid vigor" phenomenon in lab breedings per se like you would expect with a hard outcross in 2 hound lines. People shy away from tight pedigrees in labs. 



For all that- i'd like to go toward the Ford side. Maybe I would look at pattons sabre if I had the ops bitch. And pick up fords brother Patton. Or I would look at Rev.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Looked up the proper terminology now is Heterosis if that helps.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

I'd either go to Hilltops Hayseed or Pattons black water ripper. That said, Im a proponent of linebreeding.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

In my opinion....
Grady is a proven producer and he would be close enough to a line breeding to be a great choice


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

How is Grady a line breeding???


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## sixpacklabs (Jan 21, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> What are you talking about, hybrid vigor? He's not talking about breeding his Lab to another breed.


Here's a good blog post on the subject of hybrid vigor (heterosis) in dogs: http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/the-myth-of-hybrid-vigor-in-dogsis-a-myth

The author also wrote an excellent post on the popular sire syndrome: http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/the-pox-of-popular-sires

The author of the posts is Scientific Director of The Institute of Canine Biology. The ICB offers a number of online courses on genetics that could be of interest to breeders…or anyone who wants to learn more. There are other resources on the ICB website that look useful as well.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

JoeOverby said:


> How is Grady a line breeding???


If I checked the right dogs pedigree, then Grady, Ford, and Lean Mac are all on the dam's side. Thus line bred


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

And I Think the article is about crossing breeds being healthier than pure breeds. Not what I am referring to


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

You could easily go back to Ford and have an interesting breeding.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

quackaholic said:


> If I checked the right dogs pedigree, then Grady, Ford, and Lean Mac are all on the dam's side. Thus line bred


Your definition of line bred and mine obviously differ...


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

The only def of line breeding I know is cousin, aunt, nephew, etc. inbreeding is parent to siblings or siblings. Not all line breeding is close. And most aren't. So what is your definition? Breeding his dog for example to Grady. They both share common family in Lean Mac. Ie,. Grady's grand sire is Mac. His female's great grand sire is Mac, Which would make them cousins. Not close but still if bred would be considered a line breeding on Mac. I do not see any other of his females ancestry to line breed on. But I am not looking real close. As that wasn't his original question. It was just my suggestion. As Ford is also a Mac pup, would still be lining on Mac.
The other reason it would be hard to really be line bred tighter is that his female is not line bred. At least in the four gens I looked at


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Bred to Grady it would simply be a cross on mac...imo. just because 2 dogs share one common ancestor doesn't make it a line breeding.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

That's not exactly a cross but I get your point. That's why I said he couldn't breed any tighter. But you can't cross when you're breeding in same gene pool. A true cross for him would be an example of my dog. No common ancestry. That is a true cross and basically true of his dog. But to breed back into a line would be to find common ancestry and build from there. 
Like the pedigree of my dog and my pup. Tops are line bred and so are bottoms. I could choose to breed her to him and be bred back on top or bottom can't remember off top of my head. But you get the idea I am leaning toward.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/testpedigree.asp?id=6195

This is a loose line breeding imo...


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Still Mac top and bottom. Just similar to a Grady. Which is evidently a cousin to Patton. Lol


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

It's not line bred just because lean mac is on top and bottom...it's line bred because ford and Patton are siblings...


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

And about as close to a line breeding as he can hope for. And then breed that pup to a Patton pup.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=38393

According to your logic, this is a linebreeding too...as would be 1/2 of all of the labs bred today...fyi, this is NOT a line breeding.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Give an example of your idea. And then how he can line breed his dog.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

It'd be difficult to breed any two dogs from 80+ percent FT titled ancestry, without somebody being able to argue, (rather successfully) that it's at the very least, a "loose" line breeding.

These dogs are all related. Any one of them, is not all that distant of a relative to any other.

Thankfully, the population is still genetically diverse enough, that we don't need to outcross to what truly are "other" lines, within the Registry. 

At least not yet.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

I just did. Post #27.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=62818

Here's another


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

*OUTCROSS: 
This is a breeding of pedigrees where the first (5-6) generations have NO common ancestry

**LINEBREEDING: Line breeding is the concentration of valuable characteristics. It allows some control over “families”. This method requires one of the selected parents having one or more common ancestors in the pedigree in the last several (5-6) generations*


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

quackaholic said:


> *OUTCROSS:
> This is a breeding of pedigrees where the first (5-6) generations have NO common ancestry
> 
> **LINEBREEDING: Line breeding is the concentration of valuable characteristics. It allows some control over “families”. This method requires one of the selected parents having one or more common ancestors in the pedigree in the last several (5-6) generations*


So, everything being discussed thus far in this thread, is a hypothetical line breeding. 

As would any possible combination, where the potential Sire is immediately descended from dogs that have NFC, NAFC, FC, and/or AFC prefix titles.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

No offense to the OP as I am sure she is a nice dog but

He said 40Lbs. That's 25%+ lower than the low end of standard. Not to mention she doesn't like other dogs. 

Now if this was somebody asking about breeding a silver you all would be all over them - funny where people draw the line


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

I'm not sure I follow what you're asking. As far as what Overby and I were speaking of yes. Those were all types of line breeding. At least from the definition I gave that came from an article attributed to E. Katie Gammill. Successful Dog Breeding. His last example was a great example of line breeding in the next to last generation. But they don't have to be that tight to be considered "line". As far as titles go it has nothing to do with line breeding just the desired traits we are looking to achieve.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

And I agree about the characteristics of this dog being questionable for breeding. But that's his choice to make and maybe he will have a hard time getting approved to breed by stud owners. Not my call.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

quackaholic said:


> I'm not sure I follow what you're asking. As far as what Overby and I were speaking of yes. Those were all types of line breeding. At least from the definition I gave that came from an article attributed to E. Katie Gammill. Successful Dog Breeding. His last example was a great example of line breeding in the next to last generation. But they don't have to be that tight to be considered "line". As far as titles go it has nothing to do with line breeding just the desired traits we are looking to achieve.


The bitch has Rudy on top (and bottom), and Ford on the bottom.

There _ISN'T _a single titled Sire, (alive or dead) that is not related to the bitch within the last 5-6 generations. 

Such a dog does not exist.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Then I guess the case could be made that it doesn't matter who he breeds to because they are all related. But it is the number of times the desired relative shows up in both sides of the pedigree that determines the closeness to desired traits.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

quackaholic said:


> Then I guess the case could be made that it doesn't matter who he breeds to because they are all related.....


 No, we could recommend an outcross. 
But, it would have to be to an untitled Sire, in order to be an actual outcross.

You know, for "hybrid vigor", "heterosis" and all that.

We aren't yet to the point that we really need to worry about "vigor" in field bred Labrador Retriever lines. 
Hybrid or otherwise.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

quackaholic said:


> I'm not sure I follow what you're asking. As far as what Overby and I were speaking of yes. Those were all types of line breeding. At least from the definition I gave that came from an article attributed to E. Katie Gammill. Successful Dog Breeding. His last example was a great example of line breeding in the next to last generation. But they don't have to be that tight to be considered "line". As far as titles go it has nothing to do with line breeding just the desired traits we are looking to achieve.


You and I will have to agree to disagree. Just because dogs share a common ancestor does not make them line bred. According to your math, to have a true outcross you'd have to go lean mac free...might I suggest freeridin wowie zowie


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JoeOverby said:


> You and I will have to agree to disagree. Just because dogs share a common ancestor does not make them line bred. According to your math, to have a true outcross you'd have to go lean mac free...might I suggest freeridin wowie zowie


 Tsk tsk. 
You've still got Cody three generations back on Zowie, and four generations back on the bitch.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

I apologize...I must've overlooked that...


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Perhaps FC AFC Ironweeds Hi Bird Shooter???


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JoeOverby said:


> Perhaps FC AFC Ironweeds Hi Bird Shooter???


Still has Cody 3 gens back.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

I guess we just can't outcross then...


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

This thread is pointless, too many having opinions on dogs they have never seen in person. 
There are posts on here advocating linebreeding to a certain dog that produces bad joints.........swell.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

So I am confused (a common state). On the website K9data.com you can have a "coefficient of inbreeding" calculated by the site. Also the site will give you the ancestors of your dog that have the most genetic influence on your dog. I have always been a bit unsure of how to interpret this information, but is there a simple way to look at the coefficient of inbreeding and make a call on inbred vs. line bred vs. outcross? For instance, on my dog it says a 12 generation COI of 11.37% with Lean Mac contributing 4.14% influence on the COI. Do I have a line bred dog? The COI is higher than most dogs I have seen the calculation for. I think this is along the line of this discussion. I know you can also run test breedings and it will calculate the COI of potential pups, hence my next question is, if you lower the percentage of COI is that an outcross and if you stay at or raise the COI is that line breeding? Thanks for any insight.


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## DFB (May 5, 2014)

I'm glad this debate got started because I have a question that I've been wondering about for a while. Would a breeding between Gump and Ammo be considered line breeding or an outcross? If you look at each pedigree at face value they look fairly diverse but there are a couple of shared lines if you dig a little deeper. It's just a hypothetical I've had rattling around in my head. Thanks for any input.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Evidently it depends on your definition of line breeding. I say to have common ancestors on top and bottom make line breeding. And it is by definition. I do believe the line deteriorates the farther from said breeding. Similar to the formula stated.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

quackaholic said:


> Evidently it depends on your definition of line breeding. I say to have common ancestors on top and bottom make line breeding. And it is by definition. I do believe the line deteriorates the farther from said breeding. Similar to the formula stated.


 I don't think very many people share your definition.
Since that would make just about any breeding that joins two working retriever pedigrees, a linebreeding.

However, I do think that most would agree that a breeding that increases the COI of the produced offspring above that of the Parents, could be defined as either linebreeding, or inbreeding. The difference being how much.

If the breeding reduces the COI of the offspring below that of the Parents, I think that most would consider that an outcross. Even if the Parents do share a few relatives within the last 5-6 generations.

But, that's just what I think.
And I have no opinion regarding which would be better.


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## Carolina Mudpuppy (Dec 28, 2014)

Sounds like I stumbled into the advanced Class here. I'll have to come back in a couple of years. Thanks


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

The OP is looking for suggestions on breeding his bitch. Holy $#*@. Six pages and maybe 2, 3 maybe 4 posts from folks who actually have a clue.

The rest of you, take it somewhere else!

Unbelieveable!!!


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Another good potential would be "Ford" FC Sweetie's Easy Rider. Chopper on top and Rudy on the bottom. He qualified for 2012, 2013, and 2014 Nat Opens and was a finalist in 2013. I am very pleased so far with the pups I have out of him. Another litter out of an earlier FC/AFC Haylee litter have derby points. 

Jeff


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

mitty said:


> The OP is looking for suggestions on breeding his bitch. Holy $#*@. Six pages and maybe 2, 3 maybe 4 posts from folks who actually have a clue.
> 
> The rest of you, take it somewhere else!
> 
> Unbelieveable!!!



Looks like this comment killed this discussion. I was honestly enjoying and learning from it. Oh well.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

wetdog said:


> .....Do I have a line bred dog?.....


 In reality, we _ALL _have linebred dogs.

However, I don't think that very many people would label a pedigree as "linebred" on a Labrador Retriever that has a COI under 12%.

And I'd say that when you get close to 20%, it'd be considered "tightly" linebred.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

mitty said:


> The OP is looking for suggestions on breeding his bitch. Holy $#*@. Six pages and maybe 2, 3 maybe 4 posts from folks who actually have a clue.
> 
> The rest of you, take it somewhere else!
> 
> Unbelieveable!!!


 There are some threads that I don’t post on and one of the reasons is what is being said clones what I would have said. They become self-sufficient to those who like to know whether or not it is in your wheel house. Some of the info I believe can help those who don't know and at least have an understanding and further their knowledge.
Believe it or not, there is some knowledge gain here, even to myself. Just saying.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> There are some threads that I don’t post on and one of the reasons is what is being said clones what I would have said. They become self-sufficient to those who like to know whether or not it is in your wheel house. Some of the info I believe can help those who don't know and at least have an understanding and further their knowledge.
> Believe it or not, there is some knowledge gain here, even to myself. Just saying.


The OP is asking for help matching the qualities of his nice bitch to a stud. But most of the posts are from people wanting to argue about the definition of linebreeding.

If you want to learn about linebreeding vs outcrossing, start a new thread. Better yet, read a book as the posts in this thread about it are pretty scary.

Mike Olson (the OP), I'm sorry if my grouchiness has stymied things for you but I thought some of the responses you were getting were simply insulting.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Well, Renee, the OP's question WAS whether to line breed or outcross. I found nothing terribly insulting, especially to the OP himself. Someone with a different background in breeding, coming from beagles/hounds, made comments particular to how they breed, using terminology that is not common to field Labrador breeders, as we don't have a big problem with "hybrid vigor", among other things. We don't tend to tightly line/inbreed (father/daughter, etc) generation after generation, we don't tend to have familial colonies that only occasionally outcross, and we have a very large gene pool, so large that we have some distinct subsections, like bench, UK and whatnot. To many of us, having a common grandparent is considered linebreeding, but in other practices, that's practically an outcross, apparently. No one said one was better than the other, that I saw, just different perspectives, as we are breeding for different things. Discussion makes people think and this one didn't seem to be getting very ugly.


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## quackaholic (Aug 26, 2013)

Rainmaker said:


> Well, Renee, the OP's question WAS whether to line breed or outcross. I found nothing terribly insulting, especially to the OP himself. Someone with a different background in breeding, coming from beagles/hounds, made comments particular to how they breed, using terminology that is not common to field Labrador breeders, as we don't have a big problem with "hybrid vigor", among other things. We don't tend to tightly line/inbreed (father/daughter, etc) generation after generation, we don't tend to have familial colonies that only occasionally outcross, and we have a very large gene pool, so large that we have some distinct subsections, like bench, UK and whatnot. To many of us, having a common grandparent is considered linebreeding, but in other practices, that's practically an outcross, apparently. No one said one was better than the other, that I saw, just different perspectives, as we are breeding for different things. Discussion makes people think and this one didn't seem to be getting very ugly.




Excellent comment. I like the way you put it.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Umm to be a true-linebreed you'd have to cross on the same dog in the first 3 generations, after that point it wouldn't be consider a true line-breed. This would be cousins, Aunts, directly back to a grandparent (themselves) etc. Any other breeding toward a particular dog further back that 3 generations; is not line-bred. It might be considered closer than a true out-cross, with dog names that are no-where in any paperwork, but you've got so many different influences after 3 generations, that your COI are pretty low on all dogs. As some have said all dogs are lab, they come from the same stock; but that doesn't mean that breeding to any lab will make it a line breeding. THe pedigree posted by the OP would perhaps be easier to out cross than line-breed; Ford was used a bit, but not like some sires, The others line might be hard to find many offspring to breed to. Looking at pedigrees today this one is pretty wide-spread, from the normal population. He only has Lean-Mac once, most have him lined up on both sides, multiple dogs, mulitple generations.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Example of line breeding FC/AFC Chavez x CFC Meadowcreek's AM Express ( CNFC Waldorf High Tech daughter) as Chavez would be a grandson of Waldorf High Tech. Example of outcross breeding: Lean Mac x CNFC Chena River No Surprise= Prize, Chavez, Pricey. Yes there is hybrid vigor of sorts in an outcross breeding which is why you go out from line breeding periodically. The main reason to line breed a line is to keep to type and qualities desired.Outcross to add changes to the line and keep from painting into a corner genetically.

Jeff


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Lots to consider.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

labsforme said:


> Example of line breeding FC/AFC Chavez x CFC Meadowcreek's AM Express ( CNFC Waldorf High Tech daughter) as Chavez would be a grandson of Waldorf High Tech. Example of outcross breeding: Lean Mac x CNFC Chena River No Surprise= Prize, Chavez, Pricey. Yes there is hybrid vigor of sorts in an outcross breeding which is why you go out from line breeding periodically. The main reason to line breed a line is to keep to type and qualities desired.Outcross to add changes to the line and keep from painting into a corner genetically.
> 
> Jeff


Within the pedigrees of your examples, are much better examples.

Chica was the product of a linebreeding.
Ebonaceae Princess was the product of an outcross.


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