# Help Smart Works (Graham) vs Total Retriever (Lardy)



## Robert Garber (Nov 30, 2009)

After doing much reading on this subject here and other boards I have narrowed it down to the two above. I am on my 3rd Lab the 1st 2 I used..here it comes...Wolters books..hey it was all I had. I have no regrets my boy Gunner turned out to be a FANTASTIC dog that I would do all over again, fact he is with his blood someone that knew what they were doing would have made him a true champion but for me he HUNTED and did it well.

I am not looking to reinvent the wheel. I am a old football coach and the father to 7 kids so my time spent will be fruitful. That is why I have narrowed it down to these two programs. As a FB coach I have spent a lot of time picking and gleaning some great coaches minds and have learned so much it helped us to a State Championship. I came to the conclusion that the mix-&-match systems DON'T WORK...you know-- a little bit of this and a little bit of that.. That being said I am going to take the same hard learned lessons and apply it to my new pup.

I want to be able to speak the same lingo when I refer to a pup and his training. Someday as FB comes to an end I may end up taking this new pup further then I expected and I want the flexibility to do that. Hunt test and such, as well as being a great family member and hunting buddy.

Please give my your honest POSITIVE OPINIONS on these two programs. Please don't include bashing I won't read it. I have money to do things ONCE so I investigate and do it right. Any help from people with the best set of standards and knowledge I will respect, ask questions of and applaud. Thank you so much in advance for your help.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

1 vote for http://totalretriever.com/ I can not say it any better than the testimonial I typed years back, it is the bottom one on his home page.
plus the training tips on the web site and the volumes 1 & 2 
Now both are fine like ford and chevy, but I like Mike!


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Robert Garber said:


> After doing much reading on this subject here and other boards I have narrowed it down to the two above. I am on my 3rd Lab the 1st 2 I used..here it comes...Wolters books..hey it was all I had. I have no regrets my boy Gunner turned out to be a FANTASTIC dog that I would do all over again, fact he is with his blood someone that knew what they were doing would have made him a true champion but for me he HUNTED and did it well.
> 
> I am not looking to reinvent the wheel. I am a old football coach and the father to 7 kids so my time spent will be fruitful. That is why I have narrowed it down to these two programs. As a FB coach I have spent a lot of time picking and gleaning some great coaches minds and have learned so much it helped us to a State Championship. I came to the conclusion that the mix-&-match systems DON'T WORK...you know-- a little bit of this and a little bit of that.. That being said I am going to take the same hard learned lessons and apply it to my new pup.
> 
> ...


 
They are equally good...and I reco both. But in your case, I'd suggest Evan's program. Better step-by-step manuals to follow.

UB


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

BTW welcome to RTF Robert, 7 kids!!!! what, nothin good on T.V.?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I dont use either system so I think I can give a very unbiased opinion...without knowing or understanding the contents of either.

Evan Graham is very helpful in explaining his series on line, he frequents a couple of different forums and has IMHO been forthright and honest about explaining his concepts..kind of like having an on line customer service...

Mike Lardy's accomplishments and track record speak for themselves,plus there are many of his disciples that are more then willing to explain what they think he means

bottom line...six of one half dozen of another...what you might want to do is see if you can borrow a set of either series and watch them and see if one method fits you better than the other and then stay with that...to put it in your coach speak are you a spread offense guy or do you prefer the I formation..both will score for you but you may teach one better than the other


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Depends on your goal for the dog. I use Lardy. I have been very satisfied with the results I got with my dog. But I've got Evan's stuff and I refer to it too. I also have Fowldogs, Sound Beginnings, and Rorem's handling DVD. (I almost forgot Farmer and Aycock...both DVD's)

If I could only have one I would have Lardy. His explanation of WHY you do things is what makes his program so strong in my book. But I wouldn't have just one. I would buy Lardy first and then save up and get Fowldogs (only $60.00 for all three fowldogs) Then Graham and so on. They each have something important to teach.

If you are getting a puppy start with a puppy DVD, the dog will be 6-7 months before you can start with Lardy's program. He has a short section on intro to birds and water, but not real in depth. Unless there is more in the new version. He just came out with an updated Total Retriever Training and I have the old one.

Good luck


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## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> BTW welcome to RTF Robert, 7 kids!!!! what, nothin good on T.V.?


Who cares whats on TV Thats why we have tivo


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## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

Welcome to RTF Bob. I have used Lardy and been very happy with the program. His new video is better than the old and gives more detail. I would also recommentd his book Training with Mike Lardy Volume I. And the people here at RTF are always willing to help.


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## Rich Baker (Oct 10, 2009)

I dont know anything about Mikes stuff but I have been getting Evans stuff and everytime I have pmed the man and asked him for help he's been right there to help and its starting to make huge differances In my dog. I guess If I can do it you can to. I gotta send out Props to Evan for all his help.


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## BOSSRIVER (Oct 4, 2009)

You Cant Go Wrong With Either One. But I Push Towards Evan. On The Wd Site I Am Constantly Asking For Help From Exper. Trainers. Ithink Every Time I Have Posted A Question Evan Has Posted A In Depth Answer. That Really Says Alot To Me That He Would Take The Time To Get Online And Help Others. He Is Almost Like A Long Distance Free Trainer


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Lardy's DVD's and articles. Save yourself the extra $$ for some one on one training with a pro. I have owned both and like the easy to follow Lardy DVD's and his results speak loudly. 

Finding a good club is also a good idea.


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## Rob Bombard (Nov 30, 2009)

To the op, thanks for asking. I too was wondering which of the 2 to get, I am leaning towards Lardy to help me train my first lab


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

IMO Lardy's Journal #1 is the best step-by-step process out there. If you compliment that with his Total Retriever Training DVD and his Collar Conditioning DVD you will have everything that you need (actually more) to train the dog your looking for. I believe that if you truly understand the processes that he outlines you will be in a position to understand how a dog thinks. His system will give you enough knowledge to ask others about the problems that will arise that are impossible to publish.

As others have stated. Lardy doesn't come on here and help everyone. However, there are MANY knowledgeable people that frequent this board that have a good understanding of his system. They understand problems that will arise and the solution to help you reach your dogs potential.

Mike is a very respected dog person. His material is backed up with years of success. Being a coach you know how important it is to learn from those that have achieved success at the level you want to achieve. And even if you don't want to win the National some day you will always learn more from the person who has achieved the most success. Especially if that someone can convey the information in a way that can be understood by almost everyone.

JM.02


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## rds7015 (May 19, 2006)

Hi all, I have used all kinds of training material. Your best bet would be a pro trainer. Use training groups. If these are out of the question, try day training with pro. Ok, still wouldnt work, use Smartworks. Evan is on several sites he will help you with any questions or problems training. Why is this so important you ask?? All the training material is ok as long as dog performs the way it show on dvd/video. Ok, the dog has a problem with the task at hand what do I do now??? It will happen often!! You get on line and ask for help. 
What is your goal for the dog? Do you have a lot of time to train? (every day for 30min or more) Keep in mind there is no such thing as a meat dog. There is only different degrees of training. As you have stated there has to be a game plan.
Puppy selection ht/ft blood lines make the best hunters. Make sure easy to train. Dont5 waste your time on a unknown. How about a started dog. When you look at the numbers, this is the best way to go. Ok enought of my 2cents. been there, done that, bought the t shirt.

Good luck and have fun
Jim Schaefer


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

While I primarily use Evan, I also use Lardy, Lamb, Goodwin, Farmer & Aycock and a host of others as references. Keep your options open because no one system can possibly cover each and every situation which may arise.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Graham and Lardy are both great. But for the novice trainer, Evan's stuff is much easier to understand. They both base their training systems off of Rex Carr's methods.


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## Robert Garber (Nov 30, 2009)

Wow thanks for so many responses! As for the 7 kids...well my wife is VERY HOT :lol: I think that is why she suggested a new puppy, now that I think of it. 

I like the idea of Evan being online and willing to offer insight. I can agree with the idea that no one method will cover all issues. However, the one that offers the best foundation to build on and lends itself to "tweaking" later is my best choice.


BonMallari said:


> ...to put it in your coach speak are you a spread offense guy or do you prefer the I formation..


Neither  I am true blue Triple Option Veer on offense(Georgia Tech /Navy) and , 43 Attack Zone pressure defense (Stanford / Michigan State). I have spent a lot of time mastering my craft from coaches that use these specific systems. So I am going to apply the same train of thought to my new pup.

As for the roll of the new pup, outside of family member he will be a duck dog first and upland second. I would also like to have ability to move further along in his training and explore hunt tests. I like to push the envelope a bit I may NEVER need a dog that can do that much but it is the process that is involved and watching the dog perform that I find exciting. 

I am in the process of checking out Clubs here in my area (online that is ) Northwest Ohio, Western Basin of Lake Erie. Any recommendations would be great. I feel that would be a superb asset, just like visiting other coaches.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

I have both....For some reason (maybe because I'm a novice) I'm able to follow along with Graham better than Lardy.

Although,,I used Lardy's CC dvd and I though it was great..


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

I like the fact that you can buy Graham's SW stuff 1 DVD at a time on specific topics. It's also nice that he's online to help.

I also really like that SW goes into great depth on specific topics. A great example is the Smartfetch training DVDs are over 2 hours in length.


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## TestDawg (Nov 27, 2007)

I think you are close to Lake Erie HRC, #65 on the map

http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/clubinfo.htm


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

I will reiterate what many have already stated in a different way.

There is not a nickel's worth of difference between the two in philosophy nor technique. Those subtle differences that can be found in some of the detail are pretty much interchangeable.

I have the full library from both guys, with the exception of Mike's new release, and have attended both of their workshops as a handler with a dog.

Lardy: I view these videos regularly ... more than several times per year ... and refer to the collection of articles often for particular, specific review. If you are willing to look at this as "I'm a new trainer going to school" and invest the time to study, I think Lardy's material gives you better _insight_ and _understanding_ of this training approach. The dialogues/discussions at the end of each segment are invaluable in this respect.

Graham: Because most newcomers _won't _approach this as "I'm a new trainer going to school", but rather are looking for a "how to do it" manual, I usually recommend Smartwork to them. The same material is presented in more of a "take to the field" format and, I think, suits the newcomer as easier to apply.
Plus, you can buy Smartwork Vol I for $25 - $30 and get started.

As I have said before, once you get hooked you will sooner or later own both of these and more. (and I would guess from your self-description and the tone of your posts, you _are_ one of those who will get hooked! ;-)) So it's not really an either/or question. They will compliment each other.

Along that line, a lot of people, myself included, will say, "read it all ... there's more than one way to do it". That is true, but the value comes in being _aware_ and _familiar_ with those different methods, NOT in mixing this and that because it sounds like it might work. (that CAN sometimes be done, but requires a little more experience in "reading" your dog.)

It also helps to be familiar with other methods, simply so you can assess and decipher what could be conflicting advice you may get from others (in person or via the internet ).

And, along THAT line, most folks will advise getting involved with a club and a training group(s). That is eventually essential as you advance your level of training, BUT all training groups are not alike and all crusty old farts with tattered white coats are not wise. Digest the tips and advice you get and determine if it fits into the program your are following. That helpful, old guy may have been successful and may know what he's doing, but he may not know what YOU'RE doing. ;-) Stick to your program.

And try to make it as fun for you and your dog as you can. Even through the stressful times.

Good luck,

JS


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

I get the impression that most of the answers regarding the Lardy Total Retriever Training DVD are based on the first and original version. The new TRT 2- is totally revised and expanded-7 hrs and is really quite differnt. Mike does all the basics and transition and there is a lot more on blinds. Mike also explains the rational and provide some histroical perspective as the filming for this occurred over a decade plus the original footage in 95. I did a complete review in the Sep-Oct issue of Retrievers ONLINE.

Cheers


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## Dan Boerboon (May 30, 2009)

Robert Garber said:


> As for the roll of the new pup, outside of family member he will be a duck dog first and upland second. *I would also like to have ability to move further along in his training and explore hunt tests.* I like to push the envelope a bit I may NEVER need a dog that can do that much but it is the process that is involved and watching the dog perform that I find exciting.


If you are like most of us and it sounds like you are the first HT you watch or participate in will have you hooked. Its an addiction.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I get the impression that most of the answers regarding the Lardy Total Retriever Training DVD are based on the first and original version. The new TRT 2- is totally revised and expanded-7 hrs and is really quite differnt. Mike does all the basics and transition and there is a lot more on blinds. Mike also explains the rational and provide some histroical perspective as the filming for this occurred over a decade plus the original footage in 95. I did a complete review in the Sep-Oct issue of Retrievers ONLINE.
> 
> Cheers


And, Robert, as you expand your learning material library, I would STRONGLY recommend a subscription to "Retrievers Online". Great bi-monthly read. 

http://www.retrieversonline.com/

JS


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

From my experience, if you are planning to utilize the services of a professional then I would suggest you use the same program they base their training on. That is why I went with Lardy. If they had based their training on Evan then I would have went with Smartworks.

FYI - for the crazy puppy months I used Hillmann's Training a Retriever Puppy. After that I went to Lardy.


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## Robert Garber (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks to all for your help. I will go with Smart Work to start with. AS money allows I will get Lardy and study it as well. Thanks again


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Robert Garber said:


> Thanks to all for your help. I will go with Smart Work to start with. AS money allows I will get Lardy and study it as well. Thanks again


Robert,

I think you'll find them to be a good blend. As you go along, please let me know if I can be of help.

Evan


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Hey Robert, 

First of all, Welcome. When I saw your location I said "Holy Toledo!". :razz: I grew up less than 20 miles north of there in SE MI and my family is still back there. Toledo/Sylvania were our stomping grounds in the high school days.... 

What school do you coach for? Oh, btw, I really like Evan's books too.  Anne


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## Robert Garber (Nov 30, 2009)

Anne,

I grew up on the MI/OH line and went to Whitmer HS. I coach at Central Catholic High School now.

I spent a lot of time up in Bedford/Whiteford area as a kid. Sneaking in and fishing at the quarry on Sterns and Whiteford Center! To this day the BIGGEST Crappie I ever caught.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Hey Robert,
> 
> First of all, Welcome. When I saw your location I said "Holy Toledo!". :razz: I grew up less than 20 miles north of there in SE MI and my family is still back there. Toledo/Sylvania were our stomping grounds in the high school days....
> 
> What school do you coach for? Oh, btw, I really like Evan's books too.  Anne


Anne, Did you know any Atkinsons when you were in Sylvania?

I have family there. They are there, or were, before retirement, for OCF.

Chris


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> BTW welcome to RTF Robert, 7 kids!!!! what, nothin good on T.V.?





Red retrievers said:


> Who cares whats on TV Thats why we have tivo


Heck I'm thinking that's a TON of bird boys! Bwahahahaha....you could even rotate them out on shifts!

FOM


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