# Outing a Trainer



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

After reading another thread on here it made me think what it would take for most people to out a bad trainer. I am in no way bashing pro's the majority of them are good people who love dogs and training them but there are a few that are incompetent or just do it for the money and don't really care about the dogs. There are some people that drop their dogs off at the trainer and they don't see the dogs very much over the next 6 months to a year and are clueless as to what's going on with their dog. So if the trainer was good to the dogs but was really screwing them up with his training would you tell other people or just let them eventually figure it out on their own. On the other hand would you tell other people if the trainer was getting descent results with his dogs but you saw first hand that he was a very brutal abusive trainer but did most of this in privacy and not many people knew about it. If you have any story's to tell please don't name names and try to keep it civil I just put this on here because I was wondering how others would handle this.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

If I were not a pro myself, and just a regular doggie person, yes I would share... Being a pro myself, it does make me cringe when I hear of what this trainer or that trainer did- and often its not a surprise to me- but I have to keep my toungue in my mouth and not say anything.......


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

I think at the end of the day it comes down to informing yourself and honesty. Why not ask the trainer if he intends to use force and to what degree? Does he ever feel the need to beat a dog and what predicates it? I would think that the people who drop their dog off without any questions or clear expectations are the ones that will be setting up both the trainer and owner for problems. Now, if the trainer decides to lie to you about how he trains, then let him have it for that but please make sure it is not merely a misunderstanding with training techniques before you discredit someone to the public.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Little Johnny was sitting on a park bench eating a bag of candy.
A lady walked by, and stopped to say "You know, that candy is going to rot your teeth, and make you fat."

Little Johnny replied, "My Grandmother lived to be one hundred and ten."

The lady responded with "Did she spend all day eating candy?"

And little Johnny replied, "No. She minded her own damn business!"




The abusive and bad trainers, will out themselves. 
It will show in their dogs.


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

"The abusive and bad trainers, will out themselves. It will show in their dogs."

.....sooo your suggestion being to let others find out the hard way and the dogs continue to suffer? Sorry, but if you know of a trainer who is abusive, i would think you would consider it a moral obligation to warn others.


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## Duck Blind (Dec 11, 2010)

Consumers read and write reviews on auto mechanics, doctors, etc. Why wouldn't we share our experiences with others regarding trainers? It's business for many, right? Or do we only care about "our" dogs? I would want to know everything I can before sending my pup away for one day, let alone months. Once I am informed, I have no excuse for the outcome.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

ndk3819 said:


> "The abusive and bad trainers, will out themselves. It will show in their dogs."
> 
> .....sooo your suggestion being to let others find out the hard way and the dogs continue to suffer? Sorry, but if you know of a trainer who is abusive, i would think you would consider it a moral obligation to warn others.


Your morals are just that. Your morals.
I know some people that think crating a dog, is the epitome of cruelty to animals.


I'm not saying that the end justifies the means. 
But, the dogs will tattle if they are being abused.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

You could always state only what you have seen and let the owner decide what is abusive.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Scott

Good question, but I bet you know the answer. We have all seen it, a trainer in the area that is the greatest thing to ever come along and eveybody wants their dogs with them. Six months or a year later the first bunch of clients have moved on but would never open their mouths about the lack of abilities or poor conditions. 
We had one not too long ago that had a great good old boy personality, in fact a good frined of mine who is no longer with us, that everybody loved. While he talked a good game and people loved him he was a poor trainer, worse breeder, and had horriable kennel conditions. I know of four people with dogs completely screwed up by him yet none of them would admit they had made a mistake in sending their dogs to him or buying a dog from him. Another female trainer on our circut was on everybodies want list for a trainer even though her only claim to fame came from a dog she only handled and did not train. She had a huge female following, but couldnt train a bird to crap in a cage. Same thing, not a single person would tell anyone how bad she was. She too is out of that part of the dog world. 

let me know when you are training some time.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

gdgnyc said:


> You could always state only what you have seen and let the owner decide what is abusive.


I agree. As long as it's what YOU, have actually seen.

There's a reason that secondhand accounts are called hearsay, and are inadmissible in a Court of Law.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Remember the recent poster who said a Hall of Fame trainer was abusive by watching his training dvd ?
I remember a neighbor watching me train with a heeling stick (and I didn't even use it) saying "Oh, I can't bear to watch".
I think talking to previous trained dog owners is a good way to select a trainer. Recently all my dogs have come from referrals.

However, due to my slow recovery from back surgery I don't have any client dogs now and I am not seeking any until next year. I am however focusing on Rowdy.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Like most true professions in life ,You are only as good as your last piece of work.
If it is a business,then repeat of that good piece of work will sustain that business.
No Professional dog trainer will remain in that business with successive poor standards of work. They can be seriously affected by singular or one off reports that may or may not be 100% accurate?.
In the business of Dog Training,I have always believed the 'Dog'.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I always believe a dog.

People, aren't nearly as honest.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

"I have always believed the dog". I sent my dog to a new trainer this past summer and had ome feelings of trepidation but she cam back an even better dpg and every time she see him she is all over him like white on rice. That answered any questions or misgivings I might have had.


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

Sorry for the type o didn't proof read.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> You could always state only what you have seen and let the owner decide what is abusive.


I was in no means implying that anyone should just repeat idle gossip but if you have witnessed it yourself and have had several people that you trust tell you the same thing but they were afraid to say anything would you go out on a limb to say something to help other dog from being abused?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

I know one trainer in UK whom I consider to be abusive and over harsh; he's also been banned from numerous local pubs for aggressive behaviour and drunkenness. This year he won a major Championship, for I think the second time. No doubt people will still beat a path to his door. 

One thing not often remarked upon is the ability of brutal trainers who know their stuff to win Field Trials and produce FTCh's. If they can do that they stay in business and thrive. 

Eug


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

As a professional trainer, I hesitate to post on this thread, but what the heck. Years ago when I was just getting started, I used a pro for a short period of time. I didn't do my homework and had a bad experience. He talked a good game and even had some videos out, so I thought he was the genuine article. A short time later, I realized what he was and brought my dog home. Since then, I've seen him at tests and even judged him a couple of times and it's embarrassing to think that I sent a dog to that guy. But if I had really done my homework, that never would have happened. My point is that the client has the responsibility to perform due diligence before turning his dog over to a pro.
As a professional trainer myself, I would never tell a potential client anything negative about this guy (or any other pro), but if they asked me about using him, I would probably suggest some other pro in the same part of the country and let them decide for themselves. I would also give them some ideas about how to properly vet a pro before sending them a dog.
On a separate note, the issue of abusive training can be very complex because different people have different ideas of abuse. Newbies especially have a difficult time understanding some of the methods that we use. I take the approach that a client is ALWAYS welcome to watch me train my whole truck of dogs. If they have questions about my methods, I will do my best to explain them. I also try to train as if the client is always looking over my shoulder. If I wouldn't do it in front of the client, I wouldn't do it when the client isn't there.
But if a novice sees a pro FF a dog and the dog vocalizes, or if he sees a pro use a collar or a stick in a perfectly acceptable manner, he may construe it as abuse and tell others that a trainer is abusive or heavy-handed. That's not necessarily a good thing. 
I agree that the bad pros will out themselves. The problem is that there are new folks entering the sport every day, so a slick talker can always keep a few dogs in the pens. 
Now before the pro trainer police try to out me, I'm on RTF during the middle of the day because Monday is my day off. No clients are getting screwed while I fool around on the internet. ;-) And yes, pro trainers do get days off from time to time.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Matt McKenzie said:


> ...Now before the pro trainer police try to out me, I'm on RTF during the middle of the day because Monday is my day off. No clients are getting screwed while I fool around on the internet......


 Ha, Ha,Ha, Ha,Ha, Ha,Ha, Ha,!!!!!!!!!

That was great!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I always believe a dog.
> 
> People, aren't nearly as honest.


--Exactly.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Outing a pro on line is MUCH different than doing it in person...I do not think Chris A wants the RTF to be used for that resource, I could be wrong...but like the State Farm commercial, just because you read something on the Net doesnt mean that its true,a lot has to do with perspective and a personal agenda

Its a "buyer beware" business...even when people ask for advice on choosing a pro, there was one comment from an RTF'er that after they submitted their recommendation that the OP should stop looking, there was also an absurd claim that it was posted as a way to tout a particular Pro...both views were way off base

If the resource (RTF) is to be used properly, people should state what their personal experiences are without any malice or slander, which puts the RTF in an undesirable position...

Plus IMO it smacks of bad taste, if you want to submarine someones livelihood, go use FB or drop someone a PM, lets not misuse the resource Chris A. has given us to use for something other than its intended purpose


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Matt McKenzie said:


> As a professional trainer, I hesitate to post on this thread, but what the heck. Years ago when I was just getting started, I used a pro for a short period of time. I didn't do my homework and had a bad experience. He talked a good game and even had some videos out, so I thought he was the genuine article. A short time later, I realized what he was and brought my dog home. Since then, I've seen him at tests and even judged him a couple of times and it's embarrassing to think that I sent a dog to that guy. But if I had really done my homework, that never would have happened. My point is that the client has the responsibility to perform due diligence before turning his dog over to a pro.
> As a professional trainer myself, I would never tell a potential client anything negative about this guy (or any other pro), but if they asked me about using him, I would probably suggest some other pro in the same part of the country and let them decide for themselves. I would also give them some ideas about how to properly vet a pro before sending them a dog.
> On a separate note, the issue of abusive training can be very complex because different people have different ideas of abuse. Newbies especially have a difficult time understanding some of the methods that we use. I take the approach that a client is ALWAYS welcome to watch me train my whole truck of dogs. If they have questions about my methods, I will do my best to explain them. I also try to train as if the client is always looking over my shoulder. If I wouldn't do it in front of the client, I wouldn't do it when the client isn't there.
> But if a novice sees a pro FF a dog and the dog vocalizes, or if he sees a pro use a collar or a stick in a perfectly acceptable manner, he may construe it as abuse and tell others that a trainer is abusive or heavy-handed. That's not necessarily a good thing.
> ...


Good post.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Like most true professions in life ,You are only as good as your last piece of work.
> If it is a business,then repeat of that good piece of work will sustain that business.
> No Professional dog trainer will remain in that business with successive poor standards of work. They can be seriously affected by singular or one off reports that may or may not be 100% accurate?.
> In the business of Dog Training,I have always believed the 'Dog'.


Sometimes word is very slow to get out about an abusive person because people are afraid to say anything and their hoping someone else will do it. Look at Jerry Sandusky a lot of people knew he was abusing children but let it go on for years because they were afraid to go against him but how many children could have been saved from him if they would have spoken out earlier.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Scott Parker said:


> ....Look at Jerry Sandusky a lot of people knew he was abusing children but let it go on for years because they were afraid to go against him but how many children could have been saved from him if they would have spoken out earlier.


 If you know of somebody raping dogs, you should probably speak up.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I agree. As long as it's what YOU, have actually seen.
> 
> There's a reason that secondhand accounts are called hearsay, and are inadmissible in a Court of Law.


There are exceptions to the hearsay rules. 

when I first started in this game, I was at a HT. A "pro" pulled in with a whole truck of barking dogs. I didn't realize he pulled in next to me. I went to go check on my dogs, rounded my truck and found said "pro" with his fist pulled back, punching a dog repeatedly in the face, presumably for barking. Sorry, but test day is not the time to correct barking, and neither was that the proper correction. I did inform the owner. If I had been the owner, I would have wanted to know. And, I am not a wimpy trainer.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> If you know of somebody raping dogs, you should probably speak up.


Oh man. I'm still laughing. Thanks for a little humor to lighten the day.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> There are exceptions to the hearsay rules.
> 
> when I first started in this game, I was at a HT. A "pro" pulled in with a whole truck of barking dogs. I didn't realize he pulled in next to me. I went to go check on my dogs, rounded my truck and found said "pro" with his fist pulled back, punching a dog repeatedly in the face, presumably for barking. Sorry, but test day is not the time to correct barking, and neither was that the proper correction. I did inform the owner. If I had been the owner, I would have wanted to know. And, I am not a wimpy trainer.


That's something that you witnessed firsthand.

Not hearsay.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> There are exceptions to the hearsay rules.
> 
> when I first started in this game, I was at a HT. A "pro" pulled in with a whole truck of barking dogs. I didn't realize he pulled in next to me. I went to go check on my dogs, rounded my truck and found said "pro" with his fist pulled back, punching a dog repeatedly in the face, presumably for barking. Sorry, but test day is not the time to correct barking, and neither was that the proper correction. I did inform the owner. If I had been the owner, I would have wanted to know. And, I am not a wimpy trainer.


I have seen owners suspended for long periods by AKC for kicking or abusing their dogs in anger at a field trial. That guy was lucky you didn't inform the HT commitee or head marshall.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Justice Dog. That brings up an off topic question. It is one that I have wondered about. I have never had a barking dog at a test. But have heard lots of barking dogs though. Can you put a bark collar on a dog on the test grounds while he is in the truck? I have often wondered.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Can you put a bark collar on a dog on the test grounds while he is in the truck? I have often wondered.


Yes. Absolutely. take the collar off when you get him out of the truck to run.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> That's something that you witnessed firsthand.
> 
> Not hearsay.


Yes, but when he was saying SHut up you F'er......  


Plus, I wasn't suggesting it was.... notice the space between the first line, and the next paragraph. Two topics. 

And, we were talking about what we've seen, not what we've heard. At least I thought that was what we were talking about...whether to out a pro or not.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Scott Parker said:


> After reading another thread on here it made me think what it would take for most people to out a bad trainer. I am in no way bashing pro's the majority of them are good people who love dogs and training them but there are a few that are incompetent or just do it for the money and don't really care about the dogs. There are some people that drop their dogs off at the trainer and they don't see the dogs very much over the next 6 months to a year and are clueless as to what's going on with their dog. So if the trainer was good to the dogs but was really screwing them up with his training would you tell other people or just let them eventually figure it out on their own. On the other hand would you tell other people if the trainer was getting descent results with his dogs but you saw first hand that he was a very brutal abusive trainer but did most of this in privacy and not many people knew about it. If you have any story's to tell please don't name names and try to keep it civil I just put this on here because I was wondering how others would handle this.


I can't tell from your post if this is a hypothetical or you are weighing in your mind whether to do this? Assuming this is hypothetical I can see two parts of the question; 1) is just people getting bad service from an incompetent or lazy pro, and 2) is perceived dog abuse. Unless the abuse was so over the top and was observed first hand over many sessions, I might anser truthfully what I saw if asked directly and or offer my opinion if my friend was considering this pro, but otherwise keep my mouth shut.

I have witnessed training sessions where through no fault of the trainer, the wheels fell off the wagon and the session rapidly went downhill, to the point where there was way more pressure involved than this trainer ever uses, but there was no other way out that wouldn't have more lasting ill effects. If somebody happened by right at that time they would likely think the worst about this trainer, when in reality he is on the softer side of the spectrum, can read dogs like a wizzard and is more than fair in giving dogs the benefit of the doubt. In this case it was a very hard headed dog that the trainer knew could handle pressure most dogs couldn't and like I said the dog put them both in a postion of no return.

Unless I saw something beyond the pale, in which case reporting him on RTF would be redundant because I would have already dealt with it more directly, I agree with those who said it is the owners responsibility to do due dilligence, watch said pro work, ask for references and inform myself. One last thing, we all have different personalities, as do our dogs and pros. A certain well respected trainer might be perfect for you and your dog, but could be a disaster for me and my dog, one size doesn't fit all. Do your homework.

John


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> If you know of somebody raping dogs, you should probably speak up.


From your responses on here you seem to not really care what happens to someone else dog and you think this is a joke. I guess I have more companion for the feeling and well being of not just my dogs but other peoples dogs as well I don't like to see any living creature abused and when I say abused I don't mean a little harsh training methods I'm talking about beating a dog senseless for little or no reason because you think your teaching the dog to respect you when all your doing is making it fear you.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Scott Parker said:


> From your responses on here you seem to not really care what happens to someone else dog and you think this is a joke. I guess I have more companion for the feeling and well being of not just my dogs but other peoples dogs as well I don't like to see any living creature abused and when I say abused I don't mean a little harsh training methods I'm talking about beating a dog senseless for little or no reason because you think your teaching the dog to respect you when all your doing is making it fear you.


So this isn't a hypothetical. I guess you have to do what your conscience tell you. Did you confront the trainer first? I appreciate the fact that you post under your own name, I have a hard time with people who post anomynously. I just hope you are correctly interpreting what you saw.

John


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Scott Parker said:


> From your responses on here you seem to not really care what happens to someone else dog and you think this is a joke. I guess I have more companion for the feeling and well being of not just my dogs but other peoples dogs as well I don't like to see any living creature abused and when I say abused I don't mean a little harsh training methods I'm talking about beating a dog senseless for little or no reason because you think your teaching the dog to respect you when all your doing is making it fear you.


I'm pretty sure that we all have our own definitions of abuse. 
And I highly doubt that any of us like the idea of dogs being abused.

I once saw a noisy dog being run on a blind, while wearing an activated bark collar.
That was abuse.

Not because the dog was wearing a bark collar. Not because the dog was noisy.

It was abusive, because bark collars work on vibration. 
And when a dog is running a blind, there is vibration that results in correction, through no fault of the dog.

It's confusing to the dog. 
Pressure applied to confusion is abusive.

Applied pressure is not abuse, just because it's applied pressure.


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## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

I own a General Contracting Company that specializes in Insurance Restoration and Custom Homes. People that want to write a review on my company can just go to Angie's List and write whatever they want. So far I've had one homeowner that embellished and lied in her review, but overall they seem to be pretty honest. Pro Trainers are no different than Contractors really. They provide a service for people that can't or don't have the time to do themselves. If you think you need to give them a review, than go to Angie's list or start your own!


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> So this isn't a hypothetical. Did you confront the trainer first?
> John


That would be my first action, and have you seen this happen more than once? As John posted earlier it could have been a one time deal where there were unseen circumstances. If action needs to be taken then do it but just be sure you know the whole story.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Do I report in my opinion of poor or bad trainers online or otherwise. Absolutely not, not really my business, the retriever world is small, a couple of years and everyone knows what is what, one can only blow smoke for so long, before everyone notices a lack of substance. Now if someone privately asks me for a particular opinion or recommendation to a particular trainer, I'm very honest in my opinion and only give first hand knowledge, there are some that I warn against, but I need to be directly asked about them first. I do keep tabs on trainers, who take very good care of their dogs, and really seem to try, and will recommend them as being one I would feel safe leaving my dog with. There are very many good hearted pros, that are simply lacking experience and just learning themselves, still I'd much rather have my dog with one of them than one who may know how to train but only runs quaking dogs with lowered ears and broken tails.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

> I have witnessed training sessions where through no fault of the trainer, the wheels fell off the wagon and the session rapidly went downhill, to the point where there was way more pressure involved than this trainer ever uses, but there was no other way out that wouldn't have more lasting ill effects. If somebody happened by right at that time they would likely think the worst about this trainer, when in reality he is on the softer side of the spectrum, can read dogs like a wizzard and is more than fair in giving dogs the benefit of the doubt. In this case it was a very hard headed dog that the trainer knew could handle pressure most dogs couldn't and like I said the dog put them both in a postion of no return.


Good post John,,, It's a very slippery slope when we start talking about training methods.

Susan's example is black and white...Anything short of that can be tricky.

I would not out a pro publicly,,,,but if asked would tell exactly how I felt ..


I have on more than one occasion, dropped my dog off with with a pro and not talked with that pro for a month or two.

You need to know who you're dealing with.


P.S. 4 pages about pros and nobody has crossed the line and got it "locked up" There is hope


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Scott Parker said:


> After reading another thread on here it made me think what it would take for most people to out a bad trainer.


As Corey validated you are a normal person I will respond -

You need to tell the owner that they need to go see their dog during training, absolutely nothing more. It becomes the owner's responsibility at that point. 

Over the years I have trained with many pro's & have been welcome during those sessions. A good way of not being welcome is to develop the reputation of being someone who does not practice "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas". You are there to learn about training dogs, not write a gossip column. Only once have I been denied access & that had to do with one of that pro's clients, some of us know where that client resides today. I thought it a poor choice on the pro's part, but it is their prerogative, I still never bad mouthed that pro.

There are folks in this sport that treat their dogs like family with the necessary oversight to make them happy dogs - there are others who treat their dogs like livestock. It's been my experience that those who do the former have a happier experience in this sport.

But not to knock these people, but why are they getting a dog when they cannot enjoy the full experience of the raising & training?


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

I've had several folks come to me over the past few years with tales about abusive behavior by trainers. None of them took their concerns to a test commitee or the AKC. IMO if you see behavior that in your opinion is abusive, you have an obligation to report it. If you did not see it first hand, it did not happen. If you saw it and did not take the responsibility to act on what you saw, then you are complicit with the abuse you claim to have witnessed. 
As for new clients, anyone who places a dog with a pro who has not first checked references and watched several training sessions is derelict in their responsibility to their dog. 
But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

Scott, as someone who uses a pro I would most definitely want to know if something was going on. When I send Kona away, I am trusting that he is going to be treated with respect and caring. If more people spoke up when they saw things that were wrong, maybe the world would be a little nicer place


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

kona's mom said:


> Scott, as someone who uses a pro I would most definitely want to know if something was going on. When I send Kona away, I am trusting that he is going to be treated with respect and caring. If more people spoke up when they saw things that were wrong, maybe the world would be a little nicer place


This I agree with. I would be very upset if I found out much after the fact that bad stuff was going on with my pup, some people were concerned but didn't want to step on anybody's toes. Let me be the judge on whether the person reporting the abuse is credible, or just a bit naive about dog training.

John


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

I am an aviator and in my business when a pilot is marginal it does not take to long for people not use him,why should it be any different with a pro who is not worth his salt,the cream usually rises to the top. The problem today is to many people "don't want to get involved".


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

copterdoc said:


> There's a reason that secondhand accounts are called hearsay, and are inadmissible in a Court of Law.


Technically, hearsay is offering the statement of another _to prove the truth of the matter asserted._ For example, "John told me he was at the bank", if offered to show John was at the bank, is likely hearsay. If you saw John at the bank, it's not hearsay. 

So, if you witnessed behavior and you tell someone about it, you are describing what you saw. If you are repeating what someone told you as the truth, then you may be using hearsay depending on the circumstances. Just because it is a secondhand account does not make it hearsay.

Even if it is hearsay, there are about 18 exceptions to the hearsay rule under which hearsay is admissible in court every day.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

RookieTrainer said:


> Technically, hearsay is offering the statement of another _to prove the truth of the matter asserted._
> 
> If offered for another reason, such as state of mind or credibility, it may be offered.
> 
> Also, if it is a statement with particularized guarantees of truthfulness, then it is not hearsay. For example, dying declaration or a statement against penal interest ("I did it") is definitionally not hearsay, even if you are repeating what someone else said. If it is not hearsay, then it is up to the listener to determine the credibility of the statement as well as the person making it.


 Right.

It's simpler, to just say what you personally witnessed.
Not repeat what you heard that was said.


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

I think the best thing is to ask yourself: "if that was my dog, what I want someone to do?". If it is abuse, say something. If the owner deems it not to be abusive, then that is thier business. If the owner is unaware of the treatment, then informing them, in good faith, is the right thing to do.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

copterdoc said:


> Right.
> 
> It's simpler, to just say what you personally witnessed.
> Not repeat what you heard that was said.


Right. But repeating something someone said does not necessarily equal hearsay. 

That said, I would be sure I had witnessed and had documentation for any such accusations I made on a public forum that might affect someone's ability to earn a living, libel laws being what they are and all.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I always believe a dog.
> 
> People, aren't nearly as honest.


I'm curious how a dog communicates this 
Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I can't tell from your post if this is a hypothetical or you are weighing in your mind whether to do this? Assuming this is hypothetical I can see two parts of the question; 1) is just people getting bad service from an incompetent or lazy pro, and 2) is perceived dog abuse. Unless the abuse was so over the top and was observed first hand over many sessions, I might anser truthfully what I saw if asked directly and or offer my opinion if my friend was considering this pro, but otherwise keep my mouth shut.
> 
> I have witnessed training sessions where through no fault of the trainer, the wheels fell off the wagon and the session rapidly went downhill, to the point where there was way more pressure involved than this trainer ever uses, but there was no other way out that wouldn't have more lasting ill effects. If somebody happened by right at that time they would likely think the worst about this trainer, when in reality he is on the softer side of the spectrum, can read dogs like a wizzard and is more than fair in giving dogs the benefit of the doubt. In this case it was a very hard headed dog that the trainer knew could handle pressure most dogs couldn't and like I said the dog put them both in a postion of no return.
> 
> Unless I saw something beyond the pale, in which case reporting him on RTF would be redundant because I would have already dealt with it more directly, I agree with those who said it is the owners responsibility to do due dilligence, watch said pro work, ask for references and inform myself. One last thing, we all have different personalities, as do our dogs and pros. A certain well respected trainer might be perfect for you and your dog, but could be a disaster for me and my dog, one size doesn't fit all. Do your homework.


You are a just man with sound reasoning.
excelent post
Pete


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

The Field Trial and Hunt Test community isn't all that large. 
It doesn't take long for word to get around when something happens that shouldn't.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Pete said:


> I'm curious how a dog communicates this
> Pete


 I'm not sure how to respond.

I'm pretty sure that you know a thing or two about reading dogs.


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## DonBrou (Nov 14, 2012)

Educate yourself about training. Ask what training program is being applied. Most pros will gladly discuss healing sticks, e-collars, FF, etc., because they want you to be familiar with what they are doing with your pup. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You may be surprised at what you'll learn. If your pro doesn't want to discuss his or her training methods, you should be prepared to start asking a lot of questions. A good pro wants you to learn how to keep your dog in tune once they leave him, because if the dog goes sour, the pro looks bad, not you.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

When asked, I recommend certain pros that I think are good at what they do and take great care of the dogs entrusted to them.

I recommend that there might be better options when asked the name of a pro that I know is either lacking in skill or in the treatment of their animals.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Scott, I'm thinking about this thread and my friends who have dogs, my hunting partner in particular. We have done NAVHDA events and I once saw him tell a "reputable" pro who was helping train dogs at the training session "You're not doing that with my dog". Trainer had a GSP on a table and was using the chain choker to choke the crap out of the dog "to get his mind right".

If it were my friend's dog I would not let that go and if I could not get him over right away I would take care of it myself. I would expect him to do the same for me.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I'm not sure how to respond.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that you know a thing or two about reading dogs.


The reason I mentioned this is I have trained a lot of dogs who adopted owners claimed they were abused. when I asked them why they thought that the most common response was because the y look like they were.,,,skittish ,,afraid of this or that. I would ask did you see it being abused. pretty much none of them had.
Now I have also trained a ton of dogs that were 1 owner dogs,,,being owned at 7,8,or so weeks.
People would always tell me,,,,,I swear we don't beat our dog. I can tell they are telling the truth because they were great responsible families who loved their dog so much they were willing to invest a lot of money into helping it.

Generally when I see a "pig" stepping on marks and lining key wholes at 300 yards,,,,,my first thought is WOW that guy did a great job training that dog. No one likes to watch that ,,,,but if you ever trained a dog that was like that you would appreciate the patience and fairness that went into getting that dog where it is. I mentioned this because some dogs go into avoidance very very easily and while they appear before training to really love to work they don't have the right personality to deal favorable with pressure of any kind as a matter of fact some avoid the simplest command even when food is offered,when training first begins. Often when people inexperience people see things like this they chaulk it up to abuse.
So things aren't always what they seem especially to new people in the sport.
Pete


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> Scott, I'm thinking about this thread and my friends who have dogs, my hunting partner in particular. We have done NAVHDA events and I once saw him tell a "reputable" pro who was helping train dogs at the training session "You're not doing that with my dog". Trainer had a GSP on a table and was using the chain choker to choke the crap out of the dog "to get his mind right".
> 
> If it were my friend's dog I would not let that go and if I could not get him over right away I would take care of it myself. I would expect him to do the same for me.


To quote someone on here (I can't describe what abuse is but I know it when I see it) I started this thread because I was wondering why most people are so reluctant to say anything when they know someone is an abusive trainer. I understand that what some people may conceive as being abusive is just them not understanding what's going on. But there are times when it is very clear cut and people still are reluctant to get involved. There is a trainer that I know of who's been in business for quite awhile that people whisper about but don't really talk openly about him abusing dogs. I've never been on his property to train but I know others who have and they've seen him beating dogs on one occasion two people I know told me they saw him hit a dog over the head several times with a tire tool. They all say they won't spread it around what goes on there but they would never recommend him as a trainer to anyone. Years ago before I knew what he was like and thought he was a nice guy I saw him come off the line at a HT all red in the face dragging a dog back to the truck I saw him get a stick out and then drag the dog off into the bushes I ran in an stopped him before he could do anything and warned him I'd report him if I ever caught him doing that again. Most of his clients are not in the retriever community they are wealthy people that send dogs to him to be gun dogs and then he talks them into running HT so they don't know what's going on with their dogs he's a very smooth talker and puts on a good show for his clients. There's not much I can do because I don't have any evidence or proof to back it up as to what he's doing and no one that has witnessed him abusing dogs will say anything I just feel like it needs to stop before more dogs suffer at his hands.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Pete said:


> The reason I mentioned this is I have trained a lot of dogs who adopted owners claimed they were abused. when I asked them why they thought that the most common response was because they look like they were.,,,skittish ,,afraid of this or that. I would ask did you see it being abused. pretty much none of them had.
> Now I have also trained a ton of dogs that were 1 owner dogs,,,being owned at 7,8,or so weeks.
> People would always tell me,,,,,I swear we don't beat our dog. I can tell they are telling the truth because they were great responsible families who loved their dog so much they were willing to invest a lot of money into helping it.
> 
> ...


That's a really good point.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Pete said:


> The reason I mentioned this is I have trained a lot of dogs who adopted owners claimed they were abused. when I asked them why they thought that the most common response was because the y look like they were.,,,skittish ,,afraid of this or that. I would ask did you see it being abused. pretty much none of them had.
> Now I have also trained a ton of dogs that were 1 owner dogs,,,being owned at 7,8,or so weeks.
> People would always tell me,,,,,I swear we don't beat our dog. I can tell they are telling the truth because they were great responsible families who loved their dog so much they were willing to invest a lot of money into helping it.
> 
> ...


A dog that originates from some unbeknownst backyard will probably not have the trainability factor that one of the breedings specifically for our purpose does but it is still trainable to some degree. 

Pete you need to frame that post - it is as insightful as any I have read on training .


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## Brian Daniels (May 21, 2011)

Marvin S said:


> A dog that originates from some unbeknownst backyard will probably not have the trainability factor that one of the breedings specifically for our purpose does but it is still trainable to some degree.


I don't know about all that...


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Pete said:


> The reason I mentioned this is I have trained a lot of dogs who adopted owners claimed they were abused. when I asked them why they thought that the most common response was because the y look like they were.,,,skittish ,,afraid of this or that. I would ask did you see it being abused. pretty much none of them had.
> Now I have also trained a ton of dogs that were 1 owner dogs,,,being owned at 7,8,or so weeks.
> People would always tell me,,,,,I swear we don't beat our dog. I can tell they are telling the truth because they were great responsible families who loved their dog so much they were willing to invest a lot of money into helping it.
> 
> ...


Very true. Not every slinky dog is that way because he was abused. Some dogs are just slinky.
On the other hand, if every dog on the truck is slinky........


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## PMG 131 (Jun 14, 2012)

There is a big difference between an abusive trainer/owner and one that is a bad trainer or poor with customer service. If you witness animal cruelty, abuse, contact athorities ASAP, but make sure you know what is considered cruelty in you state. However if you don't like the trainer for what ever reason it is your option to tell who ever you want, but make sure you aren't expecting to much from the man or the dog. If I am asked about a particular person or product I feel I owe it to the person asking to tell my honest opinion, but will not express it with out being asked.


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