# Hunt test and pros



## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

I see often either straight up criticism or veiled criticism of pros running hunt test with too many dogs.

First thought I have is how many of us would even be at hunt tests without the help of a pro trainer somewhere along the line. Either at our beginning or even ongoing help like I get.

Second thought is how would hunt tests fair without the professional trainers and their trucks of dogs. Financially I doubt there would be very many hunt tests available because of costs, much of which are covered by the truck loads of dogs.

I suspect most of us are doing this for the love of dogs, the sport or hunting off season.

For me it as a huge THANK YOU to all the help I have received from my friendly pro Darrin!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

John, 

I think maybe you've misinterpreted the typed word versus the intended commentary by most. There are few here who haven't used a pro at some point and time. Heck, I heard even Bubba uses one once and a while. I think the main frustration is the lack of participation by the owners of dogs on the pro trucks. Not the pro's themselves. 

If a pro has 15 dogs on his truck and runs a weekend hunt test, how many volunteers show up with that pro truck with 15 dogs on board? When 15 dogs show up in crates in the back of SUV's, Honda's and pick ups, how many volunteers show up with those 15 dogs? 

Owner participation needs to be encouraged or, required at some point or this sport will, out of neccessity, become "for profit" events.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

John, I agree that hunt test pros are a valuable asset to the HT community. I think, at least on my part, that the difficulty lies in that the game has changed drastically because of the "competitiveness" of the Master National. Dogs are no longer being tested as "Master" dogs and it has gotten out of reach to most weekend trainers.Most of the dogs being run are pro trained.Look at the discussion regarding the Master National standards being turned into a competition. That already exists in Field trials. I stopped at the SH level and went to Field Trials because the same amount of time and technical water is needed to train to the master level.The distances are longer.

Jeff


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I think the main frustration is the lack of participation by the owners of dogs on the pro trucks. Not the pro's themselves.
> 
> Owner participation needs to be encouraged or, required at some point or this sport will, out of neccessity, become "for profit" events.


What the man said.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> John,
> 
> I think maybe you've misinterpreted the typed word versus the intended commentary by most. There are few here who haven't used a pro at some point and time. Heck, I heard even Bubba uses one once and a while. I think the main frustration is the lack of participation by the owners of dogs on the pro trucks. Not the pro's themselves.
> 
> ...


Why do clubs expect participants to show up and work for them ? Steve S


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

steve schreiner said:


> Why do clubs expect participants to show up and work for them ? Steve S


I really don't think they do.


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## txrancher (Aug 19, 2004)

How many volunteers, seems to be a valid question. However without the so called pro's and other interested individuals we can all stay home on the weekends and remember WHEN!


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Paul makes a good point. I try and help when I can.It seems that help is at a premium any more. I still think the problem lies with the lack of ability and/or time for many to participate on their own even at the SH and then and the pro runs the dog. I use a pro because of the amount of time and expertise involved in developing an All Age dog.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

When people use a pro to train and run their dogs, there is no impetus for them to join a club. Therefore many of these folks don't, which means that other than writing a check they don't participate in or support our sport. This is, as Paul pointed out, where the problem comes in. 

As more and more people opt for this approach to the HT game, there are less folks out there putting on these tests and those that do year after year burn out. The folks putting all the effort into putting on tests for those that don't or won't pitch in find they have even less time to train their own dogs which is the whole reason they got involved. Many clubs don't have resources to hire help for the tests and IMO you are going to see many clubs either going under or just not having tests. 

FT will survive because they have always been the playground for the well to do, while HT were supposed to be for the average working person.

Dawn


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

steve schreiner said:


> Why do clubs expect participants to show up and work for them ? Steve S


why do participants expect club members to show up and throw for them? 

pesky coins, they have two sides ;-)


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

I don't HT, but since you asked........Time to have two entry fees. X amount for entry with volunteer time and Y amount for strictly just entry, no volunteer time. Many sports do this already.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

That sounds great.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> I really don't think they do.


I don't either. I can say I've seen several local pros bring help to hunt tests, particularly when they knew there were large entries.

When my club HOST an event I consider us just that. The attendees are our guests and shouldn't have to work. When I go to another club's test it's their turn to host. Although I've thrown birds and such at other clubs events mainly because I like to help out and sometimes it's been neccesary to finish the test when all the help leaves.

We all do what we have to do to enjoy our events but I certainly don't EXPECT someone to help us but when they do it's greatly appreciated.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

mostlygold said:


> When people use a pro to train and run their dogs, there is no impetus for them to join a club. Therefore many of these folks don't, which means that other than writing a check they don't participate in or support our sport. This is, as Paul pointed out, where the problem comes in.
> 
> As more and more people opt for this approach to the HT game, there are less folks out there putting on these tests and those that do year after year burn out. The folks putting all the effort into putting on tests for those that don't or won't pitch in find they have even less time to train their own dogs which is the whole reason they got involved. Many clubs don't have resources to hire help for the tests and IMO you are going to see many clubs either going under or just not having tests.
> 
> ...


Well said, I agree 100%. I am one of the members that is getting burned out after 24 yrs. Same old ones help every test and I mean same OLD ones. Seems the younger ones pay a pro and you never see them.


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

I use pro's to train all my "Goldens" and "I" run the hunt tests with them, not the pro's. I love running hunt tests, the pro's we meet are always helpful, and the people and dogs at the tests are great! I do this primarily because I love to hunt birds. Working with trainers and then using hunt tests to reinforce my handling and my dogs performance is a wonderful thing. I have never taken a dog beyond 'started' or 'JR' although all of my dogs handle well on blinds in actual hunting situations (I can get them to the bird). Until this year I worked, now I am retired....my new pup, will get added pro training, more work at home and I hope to take her all the way on hunt tests...As far as helping at the hunt tests, I would prefer to pay a separate fee, but I have jumped in and helped carry birds, clean up, after events, etc.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Brad B said:


> I don't either. I can say I've seen several local pros bring help to hunt tests, particularly when they knew there were large entries.


Me too and I had forgotten that so thanks for reminding me. I am not against professional trainers by any stretch of the imagination. I just wonder why so often there are open or veiled negatives about the big dog trucks. Without them we have nothing at this point in time. Many of the volunteers (club members and participants) do so for the love of dog work.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

The more dogs the merrier,,,this insures we can pay for everything. The more dogs that enter means you can hire more help so you don't walk around all weekend mumbling under your breath.
We usually have small entries and we manage to come out in the black and we hire help. When I hear about some of these big entry clubs loosing money because they have to hire help,,, then I would take a closer look at your booze bill and party fund. Or find some one who can spend the money more wisely.

pete


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

What percentage of Pro-run hunt test dogs, have the owner there watching his or her dog run? I would think that would be a pretty low number. On a normal weekend hunt test, how many out of State owner-handlers work the test versus Club members? Again, I would think a pretty low number. That's just the way it is with any hunt test or field trial, local club members put on the hunt test so that they can run their dogs and hopefully enough out of the area owners, can enter dogs and offset cost. 

It sounds like things have changed a lot since I was running hunt test, back then the only reason I ever let a Pro run my dog was because he could travel to distant hunt that I couldn't due to work. I would think that most of the dogs on a Pro's truck are in the same boat. Hard to be upset with that isn't it? Are the entries so low you can't afford to hire bird throwers? I don't know if it's comparable, but when our club runs a field trial, we hire kids to man the gun stations, have the usual volunteer gunners for the live flyer and rely on club members for marshaling, traffic and the rest. We usually do a little more than break even. I just found out our Club has lost money every hunt test and is cancelling the hunt test this year, that tells me that we need more dogs entered and that a Pro with 12-16 dogs on his truck could save the day.

John


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

Scum Frog said:


> I don't HT, but since you asked........Time to have two entry fees. X amount for entry with volunteer time and Y amount for strictly just entry, no volunteer time. Many sports do this already.


Great Idea!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Scum Frog said:


> I don't HT, but since you asked........Time to have two entry fees. X amount for entry with volunteer time and Y amount for strictly just entry, no volunteer time. Many sports do this already.


So, I pay my volunteer time entry fee on EE and then do not volunteer or don't do it to the satisfaction of whomever is judging such things. What happens?

Don't think this will work very well.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

counciloak said:


> Great Idea!


No it's a terrible idea. Charging double for absentee owners will cut your entries down to the point where your hunt test will die. You need more entries, not less.

At the end of every hunt test and field trial, as they are giving out ribbons, they thank the judges, and thank the workers who put on the event, everyone claps and that is about all the recognition you are going to get. Hopefully that little recognition and the feeling you get from busting your but to put on a successful event are enough to keep you coming back for more, because that's pretty much how any event from a DU Banquet to a fishing derby works, it's the 80-20 rule.

JMO,

John


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

mostlygold said:


> When people use a pro to train and run their dogs, there is no impetus for them to join a club. Therefore many of these folks don't, which means that other than writing a check they don't participate in or support our sport. This is, as Paul pointed out, where the problem comes in.
> 
> As more and more people opt for this approach to the HT game, there are less folks out there putting on these tests and those that do year after year burn out. The folks putting all the effort into putting on tests for those that don't or won't pitch in find they have even less time to train their own dogs which is the whole reason they got involved. Many clubs don't have resources to hire help for the tests and IMO you are going to see many clubs either going under or just not having tests.
> 
> ...



Dawn,

Sometimes I feel like we live in a parallel universe. 

Shoot, never mind the pros not helping out, we have club members that do that.

I will never forget you addressing the "ninja gallery" on that very hot Sunday afternoon a couple years back! Hee-Hee! If it wasn't for you and Susan, we'd still be trying to finish that test!-Paul


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

The reality is: HTs would not exist without participating pros.
ros obviously can't be expected to help because they are too busy running dogs
: Not everyone will volunteer
: If someone chooses the let the pro run their dog it's noone elses business
: The complaint that pros have an advantage is nonsense, it's a test not a competition
: As an amature who has never had a pro trained dog the titles I earn are far more gratifying 
having the knowledge that it was earned by my dog and myself.

Bert


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

mostlygold said:


> FT will survive because they have always been the playground for the well to do


someone forget to tell me and some others I know, still waiting for my ship to come in


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> No it's a terrible idea. Charging double for absentee owners will cut your entries down to the point where your hunt test will die. You need more entries, not less.
> 
> At the end of every hunt test and field trial, as they are giving out ribbons, they thank the judges, and thank the workers who put on the event, everyone claps and that is about all the recognition you are going to get. Hopefully that little recognition and the feeling you get from busting your but to put on a successful event are enough to keep you coming back for more, because that's pretty much how any event from a DU Banquet to a fishing derby works, it's the 80-20 rule.
> 
> ...


It works in other sports. The same 80/20 rule applies in most of everything. I didn't say charge double. There is a happy medium to be found between running your dog and helping out with the HT vs just running your dog and not being there or just sitting on your arse. Like I said, this has been implemented in many other sports that hold similar type events. 

I don't really care, don't run HT's at this point. But by the sounds of it, your HT's need some help! Same old guys running them...they won't live forever! Todays society, the 40 under crowd, aren't going to stand being the 20%ers for too long before they say screw this!


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

You do not need large entries to survive. Making money is easy but having enough good help is not.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I don't care how many dogs anyone brings to a HT, be it pro or amateur. 

Requiring dog owners to participate/volunteer? That will NEVER work. That would be the first step in eliminating pros.

When I go to a HT I go to 1) enjoy myself, 2) test my dog, 3) watch other dogs perform.

I think when a club hosts a HT then the hosting club should have all of their ducks in a row before hosting said event i.e. having secured all of the labor necessary to host said event BEFORE posting premiums. That being said, I am a member of two different clubs and I don't mind pitching in and helping out with anything that my limited mental capacity is capable of doing. I am always willing to assist with my clubs or any club where I am present. 

Lonnie Spann


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I had the opportunity to train with a legendary figure in the retriever world last weekend. I learned a lot about training a dog for sure. What I was most impressed with was this gentleman's observation that the dog games need a lot more entry and participation from younger people or they will cease to exist. That's a HUGE part of the reason he was spending his Saturday and Sunday fooling around with me rather than sitting in his recliner watching TV.

IMHO, what it really comes down to is are you in it for the dogs or are you in it for your ego? This is overly simplistic, but those who are in it for the dogs are like Lonnie Spann and they will throw in and help in any way they can. If you are in it for your ego, you will write the checks and get the ribbons with as little personal investment as possible.

This is NOT a rant against the wealthy; in fact, it appears to me that personal wealth has very little to do with the decision except for whether you can write the checks in the first place. This is just my opinion. YMMV.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

When people expect the 3 people totalling 40 dogs to "make or break" a hunt test bank account on a single event there is a serious instability with what needs to be considered a business model. Folks do this willy-nilly short sighted accounting and spending in clubs then one weekend two pro's don't show up and there isn't that big roll in the account anymore.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

rbr said:


> The reality is: HTs would not exist without participating pros. ros obviously can't be expected to help because they are too busy running dogs
> : Not everyone will volunteer
> : If someone chooses the let the pro run their dog it's noone elses business
> : The complaint that pros have an advantage is nonsense, it's a test not a competition
> ...



How many really believe this? It's more like HT would not exist without working ams!


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

When the club needs that extra winger or holding blind, or maybe even a four wheeler to run birds around or move equipment and the "big bad PRO" with 12-15 dogs running says "here use mine" I think that should be apprecited and not expected. And I can think of more than one event where the pro has come up to help with moving equipment or offered one of their helpers to throw or plant a blind too. I see the pros being very accomodating when they are able and not running to 3 different venues to run dogs because the marshalls need them at all 3 spots at once.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

Thomas D said:


> How many really believe this? It's more like HT would not exist without working ams!



Clubs make their $$ off the pro's and their dogs! Joe blow entry would keep test up and running but Pro's bringing 8-20 dogs makes the bank!


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

How about this? Clubs like Pro's to bring thier client's money and clubs need the locals to manage the clubs tests. Its a SYMBIOTIC relationship. No Pros, less tests...no test, less Pros.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

i_willie12 said:


> Clubs make their $$ off the pro's and their dogs! Joe blow entry would keep test up and running but Pro's bringing 8-20 dogs makes the bank!


Sure if all you do is to make money solely off entries.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kevinismybrother said:


> When the club needs that extra winger or holding blind, or maybe even a four wheeler to run birds around or move equipment and the "big bad PRO" with 12-15 dogs running says "here use mine" I think that should be apprecited and not expected. And I can think of more than one event where the pro has come up to help with moving equipment or offered one of their helpers to throw or plant a blind too. I see the pros being very accomodating when they are able and not running to 3 different venues to run dogs because the marshalls need them at all 3 spots at once.


I think most all do the same. I don't think there is any discussion that they don't work and help "when they can". They are getting paid big bucks to run and concentrate on the dogs. The owners of those dog have expectations of ribbons at the end of the day.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

I will throw birds all day just to get the chance to learn and advance. I learn from just watching and hanging out. Keep the pros! My god we need their money!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

yellow machine said:


> I will throw birds all day just to get the chance to learn and advance. I learn from just watching and hanging out. Keep the pros! My god we need their money!


Not sure why when the discussion comes to Pro trainers that all of a sudden everyone gets all up tight that folks are bad talking the pros or, trying to eliminate them from the sport. That isn't going to happen and I don't know anyone who doesn't want them running dogs. 

What I've seen and others followed comments that more individual owners need to get involved. The pro's don't need to go away, they need to bring some owners or, get the owners handling their own dogs more often.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I will throw birds all day just to get the chance to learn and advance.


How will you feel after 20 years of doing it?

There comes a time when the best motivated will burn out from it.


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

I've seen pros shoot flyers at the hunt tests...on multiple occasions.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

Hunt tests started in the early 80's without pros. They grew without pros. At some point people wanted success with their dogs that couldn't achieve on their own, and a market for pros was born. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's just a thing. If people had the time, skill and desire to do it themselves they would and save the money, but it's a hard thing to do and I well understand that. Pros aren't going away and there is no reason they should.

But that said, to state that tests wouldn't happen without the pros money is just plain wrong. Without the pros money the clubs would have to rework their budgets, but many clubs across the country are doing just fine with minimal pro involvement - good planning and management will make up for a lot of ill-advised spending.

I've always felt that there is a social contract between clubs, that sometimes my club puts on a test and i work my butt off, but then next week i go to someone else's test and they work their butt off for me. I'll pitch in if I have to, but for the most part I expect the people that I threw birds for last week to throw them for me this week. Where I have a problem, which I think is the heart of this discussion, is the large number of people that never get involved with a club and are always expecting someone else to throw birds for their dogs because they write a check to the pro and that's their involvement. As many have said, the pros themselves are giving back - it's absentee owners who aren't giving back to the sport in general.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

kjrice said:


> Sure if all you do is to make money solely off entries.



Thats how most clubs make their money for the year! Especially smaller clubs with smaller members We have a small club... If it wasnt for the 2 HT's we put on a year we wouldnt have any money and wouldnt have a club


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

i_willie12 said:


> Thats how most clubs make their money for the year! Especially smaller clubs with smaller members We have a small club... If it wasnt for the 2 HT's we put on a year we wouldnt have any money and wouldnt have a club


I think what Kevin is getting at is that there are more ways to raise money from a test than just entry fees. auctions, raffles, 50/50's, etc. We do a gun raffle at our big test every year for which we start selling tickets a few months in advance. We have a cash option so anybody can sell tickets, even to lefties! We almost never net less than $2k on that. clubs need to diversify their income streams.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

A lot of the small clubs around here dont do a raffle! After a full day of putting together a HT a raffle is hard to deal with as well Just as hard to get out and get stuff for the raffle Our club covers 1/4 of the state!! Test is normally 100 miles away from the largest city!! So you walk into a business in that city say hey would you donate to a raffle thats 2 hours away... Umm sorry dont think so!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Karen Klotthor said:


> Well said, I agree 100%. I am one of the members that is getting burned out after 24 yrs. Same old ones help every test and I mean same OLD ones. Seems the younger ones pay a pro and you never see them.


Karen,
That is the case especially on grounds that are used by more than one club. Just from the grounds, I can tell who will be marshalling, rebirding and bringing lunches. These people are used because they get the job done. The more a person works a test the better equipped they become to deal with all of the "emergencies" that happen at every stake. 

As clubs we do a poor job of mentoring people to be good stake managers. Many times it is a sink or swim mentality. More than one person has shared with me that if they knew what being a marshall entailed, they would never agree to take the job. If we would pair the more experienced with a new person at each stake then we are ensuring these games have a future. It takes more time but in the long run will pay dividends. 

Sorry I am getting so OLD but will continue to help where I can


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Karen,
> That is the case especially on grounds that are used by more than one club. Just from the grounds, I can tell who will be marshalling, rebirding and bringing lunches. These people are used because they get the job done. The more a person works a test the better equipped they become to deal with all of the "emergencies" that happen at every stake.
> 
> As clubs we do a poor job of mentoring people to be good stake managers. Many times it is a sink or swim mentality. More than one person has shared with me that if they knew what being a marshall entailed, they would never agree to take the job. If we would pair the more experienced with a new person at each stake then we are ensuring these games have a future. It takes more time but in the long run will pay dividends.
> ...


Zach said marshaling was easy. Find all the multiple dog handlers and line them up early. Tell the bird boys what you want then grill sausage. 

What about rebirds? DUH - count them when they go in the field. 

When I asked him how the equipment was supposed to get in the field, he said that was my problem since he couldn't drive. 

Why do we make things so darn complicated?


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

i_willie12 said:


> A lot of the small clubs around here dont do a raffle! After a full day of putting together a HT a raffle is hard to deal with as well Just as hard to get out and get stuff for the raffle Our club covers 1/4 of the state!! Test is normally 100 miles away from the largest city!! So you walk into a business in that city say hey would you donate to a raffle thats 2 hours away... Umm sorry dont think so!


We test 65 miles north of Las Vegas. Yep it does take work to do a raffle, dinner or getting sponsors.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> How many really believe this? It's more like HT would not exist without working ams!


They need both in order to have enough entries to make the effort worthwhile. The host clubs need the $ to survive.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

i_willie12 said:


> A lot of the small clubs around here dont do a raffle! After a full day of putting together a HT a raffle is hard to deal with as well Just as hard to get out and get stuff for the raffle Our club covers 1/4 of the state!! Test is normally 100 miles away from the largest city!! So you walk into a business in that city say hey would you donate to a raffle thats 2 hours away... Umm sorry dont think so!


You certainly know what you and your members are willing to do, but it really doesn't have to be that hard. We run our raffle ticket with things we purchase ourselves, not donations. We get the commitment for the grand prize gun at a small discount from a local gun store that still makes a profit and earns good will in the community. If the winner choses the cash option that is actually better for us because we make the cash option less than what we'd have paid for the gun, and even if the winner wants the gun, we don't buy it up front so you don't have a big expense until you already have the money to pay for it. Most tickets get sold by members to friends, family & co-workers in the weeks leading up to the event - very little work per individual spread around your membership. The actual work on test day is minimal - put the tickets in some sort of container, find the cutest kid around and draw the winners. And/Or someone could sell 50/50 tickets while everyone is milling around waiting for the ribbons to be passed out. Again, it's up to your club on how they want to generate revenue, but don't be afraid to try other ways than just entry fees.

And btw, I left the parking lot after finishing up our test this past weekend at 8 PM, so I know that nobody wants to pile on more work on test day, but the money you can get with quick and dirty raffles is probably greater per the effort expended than running the actual test.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't run a lot of hunt test anymore, but when I did, dinner's and raffles seemed more a NAHRA thing than AKC. I honestly can not remember ever seeing a raffle at an AKC hunt test, I don't know about HRC. I do know from having worked many field trials dawn to dusk, that I personally would be way too tired at the end of the day to even attend a raffle, much less work it, I can barely keep awake to eat a cold sandwich before nodding off.

John


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

Most of the responding missed the point of my earlier reply. I don't have a problem with pros running tests or feel non members should be working at my test. My point was that as more people go the route of using pros to train AND run their dogs, there will be much fewer people getting involved with clubs and club activities. Eventually the die hard members will no longer be able to take on all the work and the clubs will either not have tests or will be putting on very poorly run events.

Dawn


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

ok you bunch of cry babies:

1. if i am waiting on a pro to come and run from another stake, what am i doing? sittin' outside in a lawn chair.......i like sittin' outside in lawn chairs!

2. i was an "absentee owner" at a field trial last weekend, my pro was running my dog and i was nowhere to be found. cuz i was helping hold a "club training day" where we did drills, ht marks, ft marks, and i brought a huge freakin' nasty a__ crate of flyers i caught the day before in the rain! so you smarty pants, jaw jackers don't always know what the absentee owner is doing the days they are absent! we signed up 4 new club members and served lunch and had over 25 handlers and 40 dogs......two pros attended and the event was held on a part time pro's property!

3. our club held a profitable hunt test two months ago with pros and ams running. we had a great raffle with lots of stuff donated by members. we had a great tailgate at a nice facility. plan and do the work, it aint that hard.

4. our club has members who make the time i spend "contributing to the future" of the sport look like peanuts. they give and give and give incredible amounts of time and resources. there have always been givers and takers and there always will be. training dogs and putting on tests is dirty business and some who participate do not have it in their nature to get dirty.....no matter what! big deal, it doesn't make them a bad person! you just take their money and they smell nice.

5. i like having pros around hunt tests. the new folks never met them and don't know them. they are impressed to spend time with a guy they only read about on rtf or saw on tv. they like it and it keeps them coming back! i am not planning on the grand or the mn so i can't speak to the impact of pros there.

6. for all of us who serve, and throw, and go into the flight pen, and bag and haul, blah, blah, blah.............and "give back"* to the sport, we earn the right to bit## and moan cuz no one else helps. so let's go ahead and complain and cry because we earned the right, esp if you been at it 30 years! but we did what we did because we like what we doin. besides, i think it says in the bible somewhere, "them that don't throw will reap what they sow."

*can one "give back" to something they have taken nothing but a little fun away from? sure they can!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Roseberry is one of the good ones. One of those 4 new members is a good friend of mine that Roseberry had never met but more or less took under his wing at the training day. Maybe there are "absentee owners," but Roseberry is not one of them by my definition.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Mark, I wish you had told me this before making me a marshal in a couple weeks! Although you did put me with someone experienced for my first try. 



fishduck said:


> Karen,
> That is the case especially on grounds that are used by more than one club. Just from the grounds, I can tell who will be marshalling, rebirding and bringing lunches. These people are used because they get the job done. The more a person works a test the better equipped they become to deal with all of the "emergencies" that happen at every stake.
> 
> As clubs we do a poor job of mentoring people to be good stake managers. Many times it is a sink or swim mentality. More than one person has shared with me that if they knew what being a marshall entailed, they would never agree to take the job. If we would pair the more experienced with a new person at each stake then we are ensuring these games have a future. It takes more time but in the long run will pay dividends.
> ...


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> Mark, I wish you had told me this before making me a marshal in a couple weeks! Although you did put me with someone experienced for my first try.


I'll try. Been a long time since I marshaled started, but I'm really looking forward to it. 

Of course, I may have to rethink this since my dog was on a pro's truck this past weekend at a small test while I was trying to help Teddy Duvall and Ed Gipson kick start an old club back into gear. 

I'll have to leave you for a little bit though to run mine and 1 of the judge's dogs at Finished. Don't worry, l'll leave Zach with you!


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## Dos Patos (Oct 15, 2012)

One of my favs I had the pleasure of seeing the other day was Mr.Bill Autrey.I spent lots of time just hanging out under his canopy uninvited and learned lots yrs ago.These guys are making livings.I'm just back in my club but anything I can do I will.As far as the same ol people doing work,it is.And our club is not getting younger.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Splash_em said:


> Of course, I may have to rethink this since my dog was on a pro's truck this past weekend at a small test while I was trying to help Teddy Duvall and Ed Gipson kick start an old club back into gear.


another wealthy absentee owner with his dog on a pro's truck.......you are what's wrong with this sport!!!!;-)


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

The notion that a pro truck with 8 dogs from likely several states is going to somehow diminish the sport or participation seems a bit weak-minded to me. So does holding a test without profit.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

mostlygold said:


> Most of the responding missed the point of my earlier reply. I don't have a problem with pros running tests or feel non members should be working at my test. My point was that as more people go the route of using pros to train AND run their dogs, there will be much fewer people getting involved with clubs and club activities. Eventually the die hard members will no longer be able to take on all the work and the clubs will either not have tests or will be putting on very poorly run events.
> 
> Dawn


You hit the nail on the head. 

I think what is needed is to require the owner of a dog to be a Member of a club that actually hosts field events. If you want to sign up your dog, enter the name of the club you belong to along with it and print it in the catalog. This is how you deal with the absentee owner problem. This will benefit ALL clubs as it will increase participation in their organizations.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I don't run a lot of hunt test anymore, but when I did, dinner's and raffles seemed more a NAHRA thing than AKC. I honestly can not remember ever seeing a raffle at an AKC hunt test, I don't know about HRC. I do know from having worked many field trials dawn to dusk, that I personally would be way too tired at the end of the day to even attend a raffle, much less work it, I can barely keep awake to eat a cold sandwich before nodding off.
> 
> John


It isn't about the affiliation; we've hosted NAHRA, HRC and AKC. It works extremely well for us. Think outside the box.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

It's always dangerous to generalize or stereoptype any group. We've all seen pros who give generously to the sport, pitch in to help without asking and mentor newbies to the game. And I expect we've all also seen "pros" who do nothing other than enter and run their dogs, lay back under the guise of being at another stake while waiting for conditions to improve, make all stakes wait while they take their sweet time and act as though they are the maker's gift to the game while their clients sit back and do nothing but watch their dogs. In my experience the later example are a small minority and they typically don't hang around for long. 
So while I have nothing but admiration for the good guys and gals (and having worked with pros I know what a dark to dark workday is involved) I'm all for encouraging more amatuers to play. And if that means allowing clubs to restrict the number of dogs that any single individual can handle at a HT I'm for it.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

RookieTrainer;1096989 What I was most impressed with was this gentleman's observation that the dog games need a lot more entry and participation from younger people or they will cease to exist. [/QUOTE said:


> As an old guy who has been involved in many "hobby" endeavors I can tell you that everyone of the older guys said the same thing in all the areas of endeavor. True as it rained and snowed in Gladwin MI this morning it will always be true but somehow most of my "hobbies" are still in existance, albeit some with lower participation. The true lovers will maintain and recruit just as many here do.


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

I am sitting in my camper at the Grand, having read each and every one of the posts on this thread. I came terrified that I would make a fool of myself at this level, even though I had help from such wonderful people as Scott Greer, Bill Autrey, and David James, just to name a few. The people running the test were terrific, and the judges could have not been better. Beyond my wildest dreams, my 2 girls ran great and I had made no mistakes, not even a gun safety warning. We entered the 4th series clean. At Drake yesterday, the girls just didn't have it. Only picked up the go bird and seemed as if they didn't have a clue as to wheere the 2 memory birds were and both went out. I didn't dream that I would have gotten this far and needless to say the dejection was there. But I sit here grateful for the chance, knowing that this opportunity would not exist without those who worked so hard to make this event happen. Each and every voluteer, all of them were great. All the participants seemed as if they were family. made it an experience to remember.

I understand that it is easy to bitch that some should do more. I understand that all here want to make the sport better and encourage more participation. Just let me remind all of what the real meaning of the term "volunteer" means. To volunteer means to give your time and effort FREELY AND UNSELFISHLY, expecting no reward. To volunteer is to set an example of what the term "volunteer" really means. Each of you have reminded me of this.

My local club has a hunt test the first part of May. I probably will not run.I am just too tired. But I must get home and let Kim Smith know that if he needs help to let me know. Yes I have volunteered many times but I have gotten far more back than I have given.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> You hit the nail on the head.
> 
> I think what is needed is to require the owner of a dog to be a Member of a club that actually hosts field events. If you want to sign up your dog, enter the name of the club you belong to along with it and print it in the catalog. This is how you deal with the absentee owner problem. This will benefit ALL clubs as it will increase participation in their organizations.


First of all, why are absentee owners considered a problem? This might be a geographic thing, but in all the hunt test I have run, I never sensed any resentment from those putting on a trial or hunt test toward those of us who were just there running it and not working that day. Regarding the absentee owners, I'm sure people have all kinds of reasons for having a Pro run there dogs at distant trials, but for me it was work. If you're not retired, and hopefully hunt test are still a young man's game, chances are there are only so many trials you can get away to. In that situation, having putting your dog with a pro to run a certain circuit is a godsend. 

A general question just for my education, as this may be a regional thing; in the hunt test you run, either as a host club or running your dog in another area, how many perceive there is an expectation for the average guy just there running his dog to help run the hunt test? I have been to many-many hunt test and field trials over the past twenty years and I never picked up on that even being an issue. Now once you have been in the game for a while, and if you are a "doer" kind of person, you automatically recognize they might need a hand at re-bird time, or you might offer to help pick the stations up after a series, but for every one of us who chips in, there are dozens who don't even notice. It never even occurred to me to be resentful toward those that don't help, they paid their entry fee and aren't really needed. 

There have been a couple post here that I agree with; first the guy who pointed out what it means to willingly volunteer without expectation for receiving credit and no resentment toward others, and way back on page three Lonnie Spann pointed out that if a club was going host a hunt test or field trial, they better have all their ducks in a row, gunners, flyers, equipment, marshals, everything. We all know it takes a lot of planning and effort to put on a good event, but that's our job, not the people who pay their entry fee and show up to run their dog.

John


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

I think that the "Hosting Clubs" should have all their ducks in a row and have their "Volunteers" or "Employees" in place when they are putting on an event. It shouldn't make a difference if a patron is a pro with 10 dogs or an owner with 1 or 2. They paid the asking fee to play the game so play they should. I have been asked to "volunteer", more like recruited from the gallery, at a hunt test that I went to watch a friends pup run and was unable because the "Club" didn't have enough people to run the test! You would think that this would have been handled before the event started. When I go to a diner I'm not asked to cook my own meal or do the dishes after eating. If you need to raise the test fee or God forbid do a little recruiting for your club then do so. Make your club inviting to the younger crowd or newbies as they are so fondly nicknamed and you will get more members or your Club will die.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Gary Southall said:


> I think that the "Hosting Clubs" should have all their ducks in a row and have their "Volunteers" or "Employees" in place when they are putting on an event. It shouldn't make a difference if a patron is a pro with 10 dogs or an owner with 1 or 2. They paid the asking fee to play the game so play they should. I have been asked to "volunteer", more like recruited from the gallery, at a hunt test that I went to watch a friends pup run and was unable because the "Club" didn't have enough people to run the test! You would think that this would have been handled before the event started. When I go to a diner I'm not asked to cook my own meal or do the dishes after eating. If you need to raise the test fee or God forbid do a little recruiting for your club then do so. Make your club inviting to the younger crowd or newbies as they are so fondly nicknamed and you will get more members or your Club will die.


Although I agree in principal with your statement there are things beyond the clubs control. Before AKC allowed clubs to limit entries, many flights were added at the last minute. Adding these flights can really stretch a clubs manpower.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

I understand but the test I'm referring to was a 25 dog Senior Test? You would think that that would have been handled.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I have been to many-many hunt test and field trials over the past twenty years and I never picked up on that even being an issue. Now once you have been in the game for a while, and if you are a "doer" kind of person, you automatically recognize they might need a hand at re-bird time, or you might offer to help pick the stations up after a series, but for every one of us who chips in, there are dozens who don't even notice. It never even occurred to me to be resentful toward those that don't help, they paid their entry fee and aren't really needed.


This pretty much describes how it is around here and how I personally feel about it.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

DoubleHaul said:


> This pretty much describes how it is around here and how I personally feel about it.


Me too. Life is filled varieties.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Gary Southall said:


> I understand but the test I'm referring to was a 25 dog Senior Test? You would think that that would have been handled.


You are very correct. That is a club issue.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Gary Southall said:


> I understand but the test I'm referring to was a 25 dog Senior Test? You would think that that would have been handled.


I have judged for a lot of clubs over the years, some clubs are very well organized with good entries, fat bank account and lots of help, while other clubs hang by a thread, with few members and not a lot of resources. It has been my experience that in those cases where the club is short handed, folks chip in and help. Most who have been involved for a while know what needs to be done. That said, those cases are rare, most clubs put on great trails without need of outside help.

John


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Gary Southall said:


> I understand but the test I'm referring to was a 25 dog Senior Test? You would think that that would have been handled.


A 25 dog senior usually says there was 2 to 3 flights of Master and 1 to 2 flights of Jr...


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Richard, you may want to rethink leaving Zach with me. Do you recall trying to give me advice on getting my dog under control in the blind at his first hunt test????

I am looking forward to having the experience of working a test. I probably just don't know any better. 



Splash_em said:


> I'll try. Been a long time since I marshaled started, but I'm really looking forward to it.
> 
> I'll have to leave you for a little bit though to run mine and 1 of the judge's dogs at Finished. Don't worry, l'll leave Zach with you!


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Gary Southall said:


> I think that the "Hosting Clubs" should have all their ducks in a row and have their "Volunteers" or "Employees" in place when they are putting on an event. It shouldn't make a difference if a patron is a pro with 10 dogs or an owner with 1 or 2. They paid the asking fee to play the game so play they should. I have been asked to "volunteer", more like recruited from the gallery, at a hunt test that I went to watch a friends pup run and was unable because the "Club" didn't have enough people to run the test! You would think that this would have been handled before the event started.


It is naive and ignorant to think that a club did not have it ducks in a row when the club did not have enough people to run a test. A club can have all its bird boys lined up ... and then some don't show up. Clubs can have all of its marshals assigned, but then somebody gets sick, a family member dies, or other situations occur and the club is scrambling for a marshal at the last minute. Same with gunners. The lunch lady's car breaks down and someone else has to go get the lunches. Marshals and helpers leave their stake to go run their dog elsewhere so a volunteer from the gallery is needed to help re-bird. A club can have its ducks all in a row and then life happens.

If you are at a hunt test or a field trial and you see that help is needed, volunteer to step in and give a hand. 

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

I am working on the profit and loss statement for a club's recent hunt test. Thank you, pros! Without your clients' entries, the HT would have been a loss. Clubs can't lose money or just break even on their events. They have expenses such as liability insurance, national club dues, equipment purchase and repair, marshal box supplies, office supplies and postage, and other expenses. This club's annual operating expenses run $3,500. on the average. To continue to exist, their hunt test and field trial have to make around $3,500. Membership dues are $10 a year. They don't cover many costs. Many of the members are duck hunters who join only for training days. They don't attend meetings; they don't participate in anything other than training days. OK by me. I deposit their dues checks with a smile. Problem is... the club members who plan and put on the training days for their benefit are getting burned out; I don't blame them.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

steve schreiner said:


> Why do clubs expect participants to show up and work for them ? Steve S


I don't think clubs expect participants to help out, but when they do, it is greatly appreciated.

Participants who step up and give a hand are NOT "working for clubs", they are helping the event. 

Helen


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Duckquilizer said:


> A 25 dog senior usually says there was 2 to 3 flights of Master and 1 to 2 flights of Jr...


2 Masters that started on Friday, 1 Senior on Saturday and 2 Juniors on Sunday. That is the way 90% of the clubs run around here. I'm just saying that if the problem was that they were trying to run too many Masters because I know it would take more people than the Senior test then don't do it. But, that would mean less money for the club hence needing to try and get new people in their club.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

helencalif said:


> I am working on the profit and loss statement for a club's recent hunt test. Thank you, pros! Without your clients' entries, the HT would have been a loss. Clubs can't lose money or just break even on their events. They have expenses such as liability insurance, national club dues, equipment purchase and repair, marshal box supplies, office supplies and postage, and other expenses. This club's annual operating expenses run $3,500. on the average. To continue to exist, their hunt test and field trial have to make around $3,500. Membership dues are $10 a year. They don't cover many costs. Many of the members are duck hunters who join only for training days. They don't attend meetings; they don't participate in anything other than training days. OK by me. I deposit their dues checks with a smile. Problem is... the club members who plan and put on the training days for their benefit are getting burned out; I don't blame them.


Then why don't you raise the membership dues? I know that everyone isn't rich but $10 a year? How about $10 a month paid out twice a year if needed?


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Helen one flight should make as much money as two flights in a hunt test. Costs go up with more flights because of the increase in manageble expenses. More judges and then some clubs must turn to hiring help since not enough volunteers. Now field trials are another story for profit. Master National different profit margin since all amat individuals attending are expected to work. I believe now the pros have to pay a fee in place of working. The most efficient hunt test with the most profit is that which is manageable to the members without working till exhaustion sets in. Pros need to concern themselves more with the club hunt tests if they are to continue making a living off the venue. They can't just sit back and run dogs and say they are bringing the club money without looking at the expense of running more dogs.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

moscowitz said:


> Helen one flight should make as much money as two flights in a hunt test. Costs go up with more flights because of the increase in manageble expenses. More judges and then some clubs must turn to hiring help since not enough volunteers. ..................... The most efficient hunt test with the most profit is that which is manageable to the members without working till exhaustion sets in. ...................................


BINGO!!! If that means running a single Master, Senior and Junior then so be it. If the costs don't justify the return then why do it? You would have to travel to more tests to get the passes you need but why stress out your club and the members?


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Gary Southall said:


> BINGO!!! If that means running a single Master, Senior and Junior then so be it. If the costs don't justify the return then why do it? You would have to travel to more tests to get the passes you need but why stress out your club and the members?


So with all the knowledge aggregated durng the running of a lifetime total of 4 (countum FOUR) Junior tests you will be stepping up to the plate and Chairing the next Club event?

Wishing I wuz that kinda smart regards

Bubba


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

moscowitz said:


> Helen one flight should make as much money as two flights in a hunt test. Costs go up with more flights because of the increase in manageble expenses. More judges and then some clubs must turn to hiring help since not enough volunteers. Now field trials are another story for profit.


I'm am a partner in a CPA firm. Thanks for making me laugh at this time of year. 

Fixed cost per dog decreases with an increase in the number of dogs. Variable cost per dog stay about the same. With that said, the more dogs you have the more $ you make. The exception would be if the increase in the dog entry fees does not cover your variable cost.


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Bubba said:


> So with all the knowledge aggregated durng the running of a lifetime total of 4 (countum FOUR) Junior tests you will be stepping up to the plate and Chairing the next Club event?
> 
> Wishing I wuz that kinda smart regards
> 
> Bubba


No,No,No you don't understand what I'm saying. If you can't do something well then why do it? I think that some clubs have the best intentions but bite off more than they can chew. It shouldn't be the Pro's problem for bringing in too many dogs or the owners problem that doesn't belong to that club or any club for that matter. You are putting on a test for the dogs and showcasing your club and I can't see why you wouldn't want to put on the best show possible with what you have available to you and your club.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

fishduck said:


> Karen,
> That is the case especially on grounds that are used by more than one club. Just from the grounds, I can tell who will be marshalling, rebirding and bringing lunches. These people are used because they get the job done. The more a person works a test the better equipped they become to deal with all of the "emergencies" that happen at every stake.
> 
> As clubs we do a poor job of mentoring people to be good stake managers. Many times it is a sink or swim mentality. More than one person has shared with me that if they knew what being a marshall entailed, they would never agree to take the job. If we would pair the more experienced with a new person at each stake then we are ensuring these games have a future. It takes more time but in the long run will pay dividends.
> ...


Mark you are right, and do try that at every hunt. We pair up a newbie and with well trained one. That works when the newbie steps up. we pass out at meetings discriptions of job duties so they know in advance what is expected. We also try to put at least 2 marshals at every flight so one can handle that dreaded clip board and other 2 handle rebirding and moveing and keeping stake going.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Karen Klotthor said:


> Mark you are right, and do try that at every hunt. We pair up a newbie and with well trained one. That works when the newbie steps up. we pass out at meetings discriptions of job duties so they know in advance what is expected. We also try to put at least 2 marshals at every flight so one can handle that dreaded clip board and other 2 handle rebirding and moveing and keeping stake going.


Absolutely! I remember my first marshaling experience. Nobody told me what to do or what to expect. I took the job thinking it was all about lining people up to run their dogs, I was in for a big surprise, and Surprise!, didn't do a very good job. I learned from that experience and did much better talking with the judges about what they needed, getting it all organized the night before and in the predawn darkness and having all the stations set up well before test dog. Two marshals at a stake is huge.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

helencalif said:


> It is naive and ignorant to think that a club did not have it ducks in a row when the club did not have enough people to run a test. A club can have all its bird boys lined up ... and then some don't show up. Clubs can have all of its marshals assigned, but then somebody gets sick, a family member dies, or other situations occur and the club is scrambling for a marshal at the last minute. Same with gunners. The lunch lady's car breaks down and someone else has to go get the lunches. Marshals and helpers leave their stake to go run their dog elsewhere so a volunteer from the gallery is needed to help re-bird. A club can have its ducks all in a row and then life happens.
> 
> If you are at a hunt test or a field trial and you see that help is needed, volunteer to step in and give a hand.
> 
> Helen


Helen you are so right on this. Our club always has it ducks in a row, but have had several times something happen. We have last minute judge drop out, there goes one of your workers that was also the back up judge. Had the bird boys coming in on a school buse, mother of driver was killed in car accident the night before and no one to drive the bus, we find out at 8:00 on Sat morning we we finally get in touch with someone. The bird Techs are always the biggest problem. We always ask for more than needed because most of the time we get less. Now in cases like this everyone just gets out there and helps and that includes some pros. I know the ones in my area always help if they can.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> why do participants expect club members to show up and throw for them?
> 
> pesky coins, they have two sides ;-)


Ken, The way I see it ,it is the clubs responsibility to find the help and execute the event....Club members should help in what ever capacity they can ..some marshal some work more on set up day, others run errands as needed during the event..Not be bribed with a free entry if they work...The participants are paying the fee to be there and run... Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

bjoiner said:


> I'm am a partner in a CPA firm. Thanks for making me laugh at this time of year.
> 
> Fixed cost per dog decreases with an increase in the number of dogs. Variable cost per dog stay about the same. With that said, the more dogs you have the more $ you make. The exception would be if the increase in the dog entry fees does not cover your variable cost.


I would rather have a 59 dog master than a 68 and need a split....Cost such as motel room,extra help, and judges expenses ,sure become hard to cover unless there is an adequate number of dogs in the event...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Duckquilizer said:


> A 25 dog senior usually says there was 2 to 3 flights of Master and 1 to 2 flights of Jr...


Sure wish that was the case with our club....We had 85 master dogs, split to an A and B group...35 sr dogs Sat ,33 on the Sunday group, 13 jr dogs Sat and 12 on Sun...The trend we are seeing is the Senior number and Jr dogs are down...If it weren't for the pros bringing some Senior dogs the numbers would have been much lower...It cost a lot to run a dog now compared to 10 years ago..fees up and expenses way up...not enough recreational money available to the family trying to raise 2 kids and make ends meet....Steve S


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## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Steve, Sorry to hear the decline in SH and JH test dogs. That will be a problem down the road. It's the exact opposite here. The test I'm going to this weekend has 1 Master test with 45 entered, 2 Senior with 21 and 26 and 2 Junior with 41 and 40. Lots of new blood.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

Gary Southall said:


> Steve, Sorry to hear the decline in SH and JH test dogs. That will be a problem down the road. It's the exact opposite here. The test I'm going to this weekend has 1 Master test with 45 entered, 2 Senior with 21 and 26 and 2 Junior with 41 and 40. Lots of new blood.


 The reason there are only 45 master dogs is because the club is not a member of the MNRC. Every other master test in this area has been the maximum 60 except the easter test.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Been reading this thread, and what strikes me is the moaning of some, at the pro being the root cause of not having enough help to execute a test. BS..........

From my experience, and that is 13 years a club member, working 2 tests a season, both days,( except 1 test), I find a piss poor attitude among a group of club members, every year and every test regarding helping at the event. Each and every year 20% do most of the heavy lifting and the same old slugs only show up at training nights or have the excuse that " I can't work, I am running my dog"

I will say things are better now than when I first joined, but so many still have this entitlement attitude that it is becoming harder and harder to muster any enthusiasm to keep going. And when new people see members who have been with the club a while or are officers in the club sitting back, doing little or nothing, they figure why the heck should I bust my butt if joe blow can sit and watch dogs run. 

I have always felt that as a host club, it is our responsibility to do eveything possible to execute a gret event. And if that means I don't run my dog, so be it. Being a part of a club, to me, means not having to be asked twice to lend a hand. And evey time I judge, I tell the handlers that if they are not a club member,, please think of becoming one. Give back.


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