# Hypothetical : Walking on Blind in Master test



## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Hypothetical question 

You are a Master judge. First series. Dog comes to the line and picks up the triple in a clean and unremarkable fashion - a credible job, no problems.

Lines up for the blind, handler sends dog, dog leaves....at a walk. Handler proceeds to handle the dog very cleanly, work is precise, takes just a few whistles to pick up the blind, but the dog is walking, and at most, speeds up to a trot when he winds the bird at the very end. Handler is quiet and calm. The dog doesn't look beat down or scared, it is a young to middle aged dog (not an old timer), and ran at a normal pace for marks.

How do you judge that? 

NO this is not my dog...haha


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Let's add to this hypothetical and say its a breed that a MH would get it bred A LOT! Do you want to be the one to perpetuate this? Not me, not in any breed. No I'm not a judge.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Furball said:


> Hypothetical question
> 
> You are a Master judge. First series. Dog comes to the line and picks up the triple in a clean and unremarkable fashion - a credible job, no problems.
> 
> ...


Should any of that matter? Lack of style is just that shouldn't matter who is handling or if it was man made or not..


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

Would be a nice dog for a beginning handler. I know my dog is a friggen rocket ship and can get off line quickly, actually I should say I am to slow to make handles.. Blinds in slow motion sound like a great place to start... lol


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I heard this one recently "If a 50 year old fat man can beat the dog to the blind, then it won't make it to the next series." 

I do think the age of the dog should be taken into account. Some old dogs just can't run very fast but have the heart and still enjoy the work. Mostly though, dogs that walk on blinds or marks are painful to watch.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dog gets a Pass in my book... But, I isnt a Judge. Some dogs just have different gears!

I dont like piggy either,, but a dog that Marks extremely well,,and is ALSO compliant.. Well,, I would hunt with that dog anyday!

Gooser


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Sabireley said:


> I heard this one recently "If a 50 year old fat man can beat the dog to the blind, then it won't make it to the next series."
> 
> I do think the age of the dog should be taken into account. Some old dogs just can't run very fast but have the heart and still enjoy the work. Mostly though, dogs that walk on blinds or marks are* painful to watch*.


I agree, but I say let the dog enjoy what he enjoys and stop when dog communicates to you that his legend is time to retire. Until then.....


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

And who owns this Irish Water Spaniel?


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

> In any hunting situation Style includes: (a) an alert
> and obedient attitude, (b) a fast, determined departure
> both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search
> for the fall, (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast
> ...


I find it painful to watch a retriever walk when doing his job. 
This dog might not earn enough Style points to pass in my book.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Why stop at hunt tests?? Dogs walking on blinds at field trials happen every weekend......here's the funny thing....alot of people on this site don't know it and they still are excited when that dog wins again....places again ...wins again....finishes with a jam....wins again....and most judges don't have what it takes to drop the dog because of lack of style on blinds....Randy


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Walking on a blind = zero style points. If not an absolute zero a very low score that is not going to pass that dog.


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

You are right Randy, I watched a dog walk on blinds that made it to the eighth or ninth series at the Nationals a few years ago. It has only been a few years that dogs have been running blinds balls to the wall. Old school training was take it out of your dog on blinds so they would run half -three quarter speed on blinds. Guy


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Randy Bohn said:


> Why stop at hunt tests?? Dogs walking on blinds at field trials happen every weekend......here's the funny thing....alot of people on this site don't know it and they still are excited when that dog wins again....places again ...wins again....finishes with a jam....wins again....and most judges don't have what it takes to drop the dog because of lack of style on blinds....Randy


It is even more important in FT if you are looking for the best dog of the weekend.


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

How do you know the dog does not have some soft tissue injury? I would at least want to see the dog run another series. Marking is of primary importance and if the dog did a nice job on the marks then bring it back and see what it looks like on the next series. If all blinds are of that nature then you have to make that call.

Russell


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

If it were me in the chair, depending on time, etc., I probably would not drop it after the first one, but if it walked to all the blinds, it would not pass (could not pass, IMO), barring something extraordinary.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

We seem to have a lot of experienced judges on here.

Everyone that has dropped dogs for lack of style, Please tell us in a reply to this post.

After that, we can go on to even more controversial things like noisy dogs, which, in my opinion is worse because it is inheritable and is becoming common in both FT'S and HT's.-Paul


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

and lack of style is not inheritable?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

DoubleHaul said:


> ........... I probably would not drop it after the first one, but if it walked to all the blinds, it would not pass (could not pass, IMO), barring something extraordinary.


like this?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> like this?


I am pretty sure that particular handler would get a pass under me, even if his dog ate my lunch. On the other hand, you know he is the only handler that is not going to come on RTF on Monday and start a thread throwing me under the bus


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

MikeBoley said:


> and lack of style is not inheritable?


It is more often a product of poor training, in my opinion.

But since you are asking a question rather than offering your answer to mine, I'll ask another. Which disturbs the hunt more, a slow but accurate blind retrieve or a dog whining, yipping and barking in the blind? -Paul


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

So, I'm not a master judge and (gasp) I have moderate show dogs running. Not slow, but not as fast as you guys with FC lines. Even "I" would have an issue with a dog that walks on blinds. Sure the dog obeys every whistle but a walk? Does he REALLY want to do it? I don't feel the need for a fast dog myself. I'm not fast enough to handle them! But shouldn't a working dog retrieving game get it and bring it back in a reasonable frame of time so you don't lose game? I always think real hunting scenario when observing dogs and whether A hunter would be happy with the dogs skill and biddability and style. And I wouldn't want to lose shot birds after sitting around all morning waiting to shoot them because my dog wasn't quick enough.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Back nic back and that dog better run to the pile. Revisit force to pile.


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

paul young said:


> We seem to have a lot of experienced judges on here.
> 
> Everyone that has dropped dogs for lack of style, Please tell us in a reply to this post.
> 
> After that, we can go on to even more controversial things like noisy dogs, which, in my opinion is worse because it is inheritable and is becoming common in both FT'S and HT's.-Paul


To answer Paul's question I have failed dogs for style (i.e., avg score < 5), but admittedly relatively few. More common has been a lower score for style has prevented a dog from receiving an overall average score of 7.

As far as noisy dogs, admittedly I'm not a big stickler for noise at the line, although there's a point where it becomes an issue. I'll deduct trainability points for a vocal dog but it would have to be bad for me to zero a dog. Whining as birds are going down doesn't bother me that much, barking is more of an issue. From a training standpoint I don't like to see it in my dogs. From a judging standpoint, I understand it happens and it can be a tough issue to resolve.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Does anyone feel that if a handler with a whiny dog that is awarded a pass will then go home and work on trying to fix the issue? Conversely, if they were dropped for that offense (or for walking to a blind) will they be more likely to try to go home and fix that/those issues in training? We own what we condone and I'd feel better about not passing dogs that have very low style, or are whiny, just as much as dogs that are poor markers or have poor control/Trainability.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

​What does the Rule Book say?


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

motor-vater said:


> Would be a nice dog for a beginning handler. I know my dog is a friggen rocket ship and can get off line quickly, actually I should say I am to slow to make handles.. Blinds in slow motion sound like a great place to start... lol


Amen, and amen. Here's to not being able to breathe during blinds because you have to be ready to blow the whistle at all times. What's the rule on the handler passing out due to acute oxygen deprivation at the line?


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> ​What does the Rule Book say?


From the Hunt Test rule book.....
Minor faults - Slight short whining or one bark – while on the line or on being sent to retrieve.

Moderate Faults - Moderate whining of short duration

Serious Faults - Loud and prolonged barking or whining

For Style:
Moderate Fault: Poor style – the lack of an alert and obedient attitude, a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water, an aggressive search for the fall, a prompt pick up, and a reason-ably fast return.

II. Style is apparent in every movement of a dog by the gaiety of its manner, by its alertness, by its eagerness and speed on retrieves, by its water-entry, by its pick-up of birds, and by its return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance. Style and Marking constitute the most important abilities of Retrievers, but this does not imply that a dog which excels in Marking and Style should not be scored lower on other abilities, even to the extent of not receiving a Qualifying score for lack of or serious deficiencies in those required abilities. In any hunting situation Style includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the fall, (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast return. The absence of these components of Style shall be reflected in a dog’s score, even to the point of scoring a dog zero (0) on Style.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Rip Shively said:


> From the Hunt Test rule book.....
> Minor faults - Slight short whining or one bark – while on the line or on being sent to retrieve.
> 
> Moderate Faults - Moderate whining of short duration
> ...



Responses should be measured by the Rule Book, not personal attitudes.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

paul young said:


> We seem to have a lot of experienced judges on here.
> 
> Everyone that has dropped dogs for lack of style, Please tell us in a reply to this post.
> 
> After that, we can go on to even more controversial things like noisy dogs, which, in my opinion is worse because it is inheritable and is becoming common in both FT'S and HT's.-Paul


I have dropped dogs for style, one particular dog several times because it is a pig and has zero style and no business running a master test (or any other level), but the handler insist and loudly complains that "she picked up all the birds". Sure she did, and she walked to them, hunted gods creation, rolled in cow crap, and basically did everything a master dog should not do.
I have dropped noisy dogs as well. They may not go on the first series depending on the severity, but they will show the same lack of style in more than one series and cannot meet the minimum average scoring requirements per the rulebook (repeated moderate faults).


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Responses should be measured by the Rule Book, not personal attitudes.


Well, the terms short, moderate, loud or prolonged are variable based on personal attitudes...since they are not defined by the rule book. I don't think anyone wants to sit out there with a stopwatch trying to figure out short or long...


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## Rip Shively (Sep 5, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Responses should be measured by the Rule Book, not personal attitudes.


I don't disagree, but interpretation comes into play. What is moderate for one person may be severe for another. Same goes for style. I have heard of more than one judge comment that while they have never dropped a dog for lack of style, they wish they would have. That type of statement reflects personal attitude but also conflict with the subjective nature of judging.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

It is definitely a style issue, but what was the dog's attitude? Tail up, wagging, ears up? Tail down, overall look of wanting to be somewhere else? Speed is not a criterion in and of itself. You have to take the overall attitude of the dog into account.

What do you do wtih a dog that is cowering, obviously scared or intimidated by its handler, but it runs and swims fast--possibly out of fear? The dog marks and delivers to hand, but everything is done with head and tail down and crouching when in proximity of the handler. You can pretty much assume that if the dog is dropped the dog will have hell to pay in the next training session.

Meredith


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Let's see the dog did a good job on his marks, (didn't hear anything about fooling around in the field, having to be encouraged to go, also didn't hear anything about the dog attitude with the flyer (dead birds are boring ) and not going directly to his marks) The dog walks (so what?) on a blind but goes when his handler says to and takes every cast and whistle that the handler gives. Sounds like a dog that's doing his job, we'll see him in the next series. It's a masters we have 2 more series and to more blinds to score and then average. Perhaps he gets a low style score, but he has a high train-ability score, he got his triple so marking is high as well, line manners high. As a judge I'll put on something tough requiring perseverance and skill, a few long swims usually put a lazy dog out. So we'll see if the dog can do it, or if he chooses to fall asleep, and has to be directed. He does it he passes, as he's done the skill set. Not everyone likes a high powered dog, not everyone likes a slow dog, but we are grading to a standard skill set via the rules not to what we'd prefer to see. We are passing a standard an average of 70% of an entire, skill set meaning a dog can balance out a fault, we're not finding a winner, nor putting our own spin on the rules. We're just grading dogs, in skills that are right there on the judges paper, then using math to see if he passes.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Let's see the dog did a good job on his marks, (didn't hear anything about fooling around in the field, having to be encouraged to go, also didn't hear anything about the dog attitude with the flyer (dead birds are boring ) and not going directly to his marks) The dog walks (so what?) on a blind but goes when his handler says to and takes every cast and whistle that the handler gives. Sounds like a dog that's doing his job, we'll see him in the next series. It's a masters we have 2 more series and to more blinds to score and then average. Perhaps he gets a low style score, but he has a high train-ability score, he got his triple so marking is high as well, line manners high. As a judge I'll put on something tough requiring perseverance and skill, a few long swims usually put a lazy dog out. So we'll see if the dog can do it, or if he chooses to fall asleep, and has to be directed. He does it he passes, as he's done the skill set. Not everyone likes a high powered dog, not everyone likes a *slow dog*, but we are *grading to a standard* skill set via the rules not to what we'd prefer to see. We are passing a standard an average of 70% of an entire, skill set meaning a dog can balance out a fault, we're not finding a winner, *nor putting our own spin on the rules*. We're just grading dogs, in skills that are right there on the judges paper, then using math to see if he passes.


II. S*tyle is apparent in every movement of a dog by the gaiety of its manner, by its alertness, by its eagerness and speed on retrieves, by its water-entry, by its pick-up of birds, and by its return with them.* Style makes for a pleasing performance. Style and Marking constitute the most important abilities of Retrievers, but this does not imply that a dog which excels in Marking and Style should not be scored lower on other abilities, even to the extent of not receiving a Qualifying score for lack of or serious deficiencies in those required abilities. In any hunting situation Style includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) *a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water*, (c) an aggressive search for the fall, (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) *a reasonably fast return. The absence of these components of Style shall be reflected in a dog’s score, even to the point of scoring a dog zero (0) on Style.


*We are not finding a winner, but we must uphold the standard. Anything short of doing so is unfair to all handlers, breeders, judges, and dogs. A dog with little or no style should be judged accordingly and not awarded a qualification if the faults are severe enough singularly or cumulatively. As Paul mentioned above many vocal dogs are being qualified and this perpetuates breeding's of dogs that shouldn't be. Like it or not people breed based on HT success.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Responses should be measured by the Rule Book, not personal attitudes.


So, first series sounds pretty good. Not great but good. Let's say 7s across the board, including style. On the blind lets say perseverance was not an issue, trainability sounds like a 10 or 9 at a minimum. What style score would be required not to bring the dog back? Even a 3 would lead to your thinking that dog could pass.

I don't see this as a 0, at least the first time--the dog showed an alert and obedient attitude, seemed to pick up promptly but it walked. It might get better (or worse) on later blinds. I would still bring this dog back, given what we were told in the hypo. It may not pass, but I see no reason to drop it after the first blind.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Assuming there's no reason for the walk except the dog's attitude, I'd still look to see if the dog was displaying any of the other attributes that showed that the dog really wanted to be there that day. If "style" is hard to judge in real life, it's probably the hardest to judge when all you can see are black letters on a white page.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Eric Johnson said:


> Assuming there's no reason for the walk except the dog's attitude, I'd still look to see if the dog was displaying any of the other attributes that showed that the dog really wanted to be there that day. If "style" is hard to judge in real life, it's probably the hardest to judge when all you can see are black letters on a white page.


Exactly, but if we didn't bicker about something we didn't see RTF would die. 

We all 'know" the dog the OP is taking about though. Everyone has seen them. They just don't enjoy what they are doing and it shows. Maybe some style on marks, but even that is just the excitement of it, they would rather be wearing a bandana and chasing tennis balls.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> II. (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) *a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water*, (c) an aggressive search for the fall, (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) *a reasonably fast return. The absence of these components of Style shall be reflected in a dog’s score, even to the point of scoring a dog zero (0) on Style..*


*

For me to fail a dog solely based on style, it must be pretty much evident in every aspect of his performance, every aspect of it's attitude, pretty much shown to be a habit of I don't want to be here. However the dog appeared to have a good marks, nothing is mentioned about crawling out to the birds, hesitant to leave, screwing around. Characteristics you would see in a dog severely lacking in style. Thus I'm assuming a good initial score in Style. A single act of walking on a blind (the first blind) is not what I'd consider a 0 in style, low perhaps, but that would all depend on how the dog is interacting with it's owner. If the dog is a) alert and obedient (dog took every cast) b) determined in his departure. (dog left when sent/not hesitant) d) promptly picked-up the bird, (dog picked up the bird as soon as he got to it, not after he peed and rolled on it) and (e) a reasonably fast return (aka. returns directly to owner with bird, not visiting the gallery). The dog in question has demonstrated most of the requirement for style. The only thing he's not demonstrating is the word fast, but in b) it's a fast-determined departure, (sets off when commanded to, and keeps going; not hesitant nor looking for direction) in e) it's reasonably fast return (i.e. a direct return, not screwing around). As the dog has demonstrated a good portion of the style requirement, I'm not sure how you could give a 0 style score, on this blind. Plus in HTs a series, is usually marks and blinds (together), if the dog had good style on marks then crappy style on the blind; the style scores average. If all other aspects are average-good, the dog is still in. Notes might be made on the slowness of the blind & (style?), to see if it's a habit, but there are at least 2 other blinds to judge and 2 other sets of marks. If the dog truly doesn't want to be there, nor do his job; it'll come out in other aspects of the test, nails will continue to be added to the coffin; no need to use an ax just yet .*


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Not fun, have done it only once in a amateur all-age many years ago. In hunt tests have done it several times in the Master..In the trial owner/handler wouldn't talk to me for three years...Easier in theory, then doing it hands on, especially when judging folks in your circuit. Lots different when holding the book, then discussing it..just saying.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I think you're missing something important. It isn't about speed.

So what I see as unpleasing is when a dog is an utter pig, coming and going, with indifferent or sluggish sits on the whistles, lazy responses to handles and so on. It isn't just walking out on the blind, and then a grudging walk back with the bird. The whole performance saying... "I know you can make me do this but you can't make me enjoy it."

It's not just a dog with a slow gait.

My dog doesn't exactly kick up dirt on "Back!" Sometimes she is at a trot when she leaves on a blind. But I know when we're performing as a team. I'd like to think the judges could tell she's listening up and working with me. Most of all, she'll run back with the bird as if to say "Lookie what we got!!!" Maybe she wouldn't get the amount of style points another dog would get, but I'd hate to think that would be less than the requisite number to pass.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

To Paul's point. Would you want a puppy out of this dog? If not, should they be made a MH?


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> To Paul's point. Would you want a puppy out of this dog? If not, should they be made a MH?


That is really stretching the hypo. Who knows? What is its breeding? What is the other dog? Who would buy a puppy just because one of the parents has a MH or not? 

The MH is earned by passing tests against the standard. Based on the hypo and the rules, the dog could very meet the standard and earn the MH--or not.
If you think that MH is or should be some sort of seal of approval of a great sire or dam, you are not paying attention.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Darrin, that is a valid question for BREEDERS but it's not a judge's responsibility to determine if the dog is of breeding quality. We all know that letters after a dog's name (or before it) only denote it met the qualifications for a title, not that it was a good breeding prospect. That is for the breeder and owner to decide.

Thank you all for your opinions! I genuinely was interested to know. I for sure wouldn't know how to judge it. (Well, I know how I judge it when I see it in training, but I'm not behind a clipboard.) The person/dog I am thinking of in particular is an infrequent training partner of mine, the dog runs all-out on marks but does no more than a trot on blinds. Recently the dog just leaves at a walk and if it isn't stopped it speeds up to a trot until the next whistle. I know it is the dog's training, not natural. The dog doesn't look miserable, and is remarkably crisp sitting on the whistle and taking casts. It's just PAINFUL to watch, especially since I know the dog is more than capable of running at breakneck speed, and with proper training, could run super blinds. Honestly I don't know how the handler taught the dog to do it. This person is NOT receptive to training advice so I keep my trap shut -- and they obviously think it is acceptable. 

Corey -- gee I think I know who you're referencing..........honestly I can't believe she would enter under you LOL


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

IF the dog speeds up if he does not hear a whistle could mean the handler is blowing one too soon in trianing and the dog i waiting for it. If he lets the dog go a little ways, does he pick up speed than.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

DoubleHaul said:


> If you think that MH is or should be some sort of seal of approval of a great sire or dam, you are not paying attention.


Titles don't matter to puppy buying decisions? I think they do, quite a bit for some (if not most) people. You don't always get to see both parents perform. 

Paul (Young) rightly mentioned the heritability of certain traits. Desire is one of those traits, as is noise (that he also mentioned). 

Bottom line on the hypo is... 8 - 7's on "adequate" marks and 3 - 1's on "walked" blinds does not a 7 make.

Book says STYLE AND MARKING are top 2 traits to be judged (refer to previous post). 

It would seem that appropriate emphasis should be placed on style in judging. 

The whole objective of the AKC is to preserve and improve the breed in question. Breeding dogs that are supposed to hunt with little to no style doesn't accomplish that. How can we say it isn't a consideration? It has to be. Titles support puppy buying decisions which drives demand for certain breedings. Judging plays an indirect (if not direct) role in that.

If you beat the drive out of the dog, shame on you, you still fail.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Would you want to hunt with this dog? Would anyone other than the owner want to hunt with this dog after watching the blinds? It's painful to watch lack of desire (if that is what was going on). As a judge, you should judge accordingly. 

To the OP... How was this judged?


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Would you want to hunt with this dog? Would anyone other than the owner want to hunt with this dog after watching the blinds? It's painful to watch lack of desire (if that is what was going on). As a judge, you should judge accordingly.
> 
> To the OP... How was this judged?


I would probably rather hunt with this dog than one that was noisy and/or chomped birds. I have seen these pass in Master too.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> To Paul's point. Would you want a puppy out of this dog? If not, should they be made a MH?



As a buyer, I am more interested in what the parents were like at 6 months of age than I am in what they can do at 3 or 4 years of age. You can't purchase the trained aspects of the parents when you buy a pup. The next important consideration for me is the health history of the parents and grandparents. 

As I already have said, a dog that is showing good style in marking situations, but is very slow on blinds is likely to be the product of poor training methods and/or inappropriate corrections on blind work.

As this was posted as a hypothetical situation, I was responding to that. As Bill said, would you hunt with the dog? If not, your score should reflect that.

When it comes to style and noise, very few judges are willing to fail dogs for those faults alone, in my experience.

A slow dog MAY just be slow. A dog that runs fast with ears flat and tail tucked is not stylish, just because it's fast. How about dogs that run fast and flatten to the ground when the whistle is blown? Is that good style? -Paul


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Furball said:


> Darrin, that is a valid question for BREEDERS but it's not a judge's responsibility to determine if the dog is of breeding quality. We all know that letters after a dog's name (or before it) only denote it met the qualifications for a title, not that it was a good breeding prospect. That is for the breeder and owner to decide.
> 
> Thank you all for your opinions! I genuinely was interested to know. I for sure wouldn't know how to judge it. (Well, I know how I judge it when I see it in training, but I'm not behind a clipboard.) The person/dog I am thinking of in particular is an infrequent training partner of mine, the dog runs all-out on marks but does no more than a trot on blinds. Recently the dog just leaves at a walk and if it isn't stopped it speeds up to a trot until the next whistle. I know it is the dog's training, not natural. The dog doesn't look miserable, and is remarkably crisp sitting on the whistle and taking casts. It's just PAINFUL to watch, especially since I know the dog is more than capable of running at breakneck speed, and with proper training, could run super blinds. Honestly I don't know how the handler taught the dog to do it. This person is NOT receptive to training advice so I keep my trap shut -- and they obviously think it is acceptable.
> 
> Corey -- gee I think I know who you're referencing..........honestly I can't believe she would enter under you LOL


does so every time she can. I don't understand, and it is not personal, I pass dogs that meet the standard.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Would you want to hunt with this dog? Would anyone other than the owner want to hunt with this dog after watching the blinds? It's painful to watch lack of desire (if that is what was going on). As a judge, you should judge accordingly.
> 
> To the OP... How was this judged?



I've only seen the dog run one series that had no blinds and it did great. The handler put it out with handling on two marks in the other series. The dog has run about ten tests and only passed one -- I have no idea why it failed the others. I train very infrequently with this person and they have made it be known that they don't want to hear advice on training. I know the dog could be incredible which makes it frustrating to watch!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

From folks that I have been around, that see a LOT of dogs,,, It sounds like puppy buying is a crap shoot, despite the breeding..

I am interested... do some of you feel that that sire would only ever produce piggy dogs, based on what you see at 1 test??
Could piggy come from training experiences?
Could the piggy come from the bitch side?

Would I hunt with a dog like this........ A good marking dog, that is compliant ,,IMHO,,would be a pleasure to spend the day in the blind with. The dog is there to conserve game.. regardless of speed.. I can not believe a judge would zero the dog for style, given the dog in the example.. 

How many times on this board do folks say, "You have to see the whole picture."


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Has anyone seen FC AFC Land Ahoy (Pirate) run? I like a dog that goes slow on blinds. Then I can think in front of them, like my Rowdy. But I also like one that returns promptly.
Some train this slowness on blinds, like Jerry P. I am told.
I have a friend that had a slow dog that earned about 2500 points in hrc. Which was quite an accomplishment.
I saw Dave Rorem run his truck load off dogs. He had one that was very slow on blinds. He didn't seem concerned about it.
But I haven't seen this dog run.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Have some of you ever seen a difference in dogs psyche when comparing Testing and Hunting?


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Corey-

In fact I don't know the dog if you meant that literally. I do have a short anecdote to contribute. I was running a NAHRA Intermediate. Long story made short ... my dog was slower and slower on the land double. The entire field was cut briars. She didn't falter but she was slow and so the judges put her out ... only 1 of the 8 running that failed. I volunteered to run her as test dog for the water series. Marks were good and on the way to the blind, she put up a goose that had been nesting on a island that was on the line to the blind. When the goose took flight, she kept trucking and did fine. The 7 dogs in contention all couldn't get past the scent on the island. So ... the failed test dog was the only dog that passed that day.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Has anyone seen FC AFC Land Ahoy (Pirate) run? I like a dog that goes slow on blinds. Then I can think in front of them, like my Rowdy. But I also like one that returns promptly.
> Some train this slowness on blinds, like Jerry P. I am told.
> I have a friend that had a slow dog that earned about 2500 points in hrc. Which was quite an accomplishment.
> I saw Dave Rorem run his truck load off dogs. He had one that was very slow on blinds. He didn't seem concerned about it.
> But I haven't seen this dog run.


WOW!!

I totally dislike a dog that walks on blinds whether in training or at a test!!

I want to own, train and judge a dog that wants to get the bird. If I have a dog that is very slow on blinds I AM very concerned about it. Either my dog has insufficient desire to play the game or I screwed up that dogs training!!

If you are so slow to be able the handle the dog, then why punish the dog to not want to retrieve with great desire by training that way!! I do not accept the argument that slow dogs are easier to handle if you have to beat a dog down to get that slowness. If you don't have to beat the dog down to get the slowness but it is genetic then excuse, me - I don't want the dog!!

Why do judges reward dogs that walk? Are they not penalizing the dog that is fast, stylish, full of desire, and often full of talent? Can they not read the rest of the Rule book beyond " Marking is of Primary Importance?" What happened to the "pleasing to the eye" concept? Sometimes high points are not "quite the accomplishment" that is perceived!.

I would not knowingly buy a pup from such a walking dog. Do I really know whether it was due to training or the dog's proclivity to react that way to typical training? In any case I would not gamble on such a poor win!

Show me where the rule book says we want dogs that don't want to be there and act that way. What duck hunter wants a dog that doesn't enjoy the hunt?

C'mon folks-let's not excuse the piggys!


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Has anyone seen FC AFC Land Ahoy (Pirate) run? I like a dog that goes slow on blinds. Then I can think in front of them, like my Rowdy. But I also like one that returns promptly.
> Some train this slowness on blinds, like Jerry P. I am told.
> I have a friend that had a slow dog that earned about 2500 points in hrc. Which was quite an accomplishment.
> I saw Dave Rorem run his truck load off dogs. He had one that was very slow on blinds. He didn't seem concerned about it.
> But I haven't seen this dog run.


Actually- I HAVE seen Pirate run and LOVED the show enough to buy not just one but 2 Pirate pups and would buy more in a heartbeat. Pirate isn't the showiest dog around but calling him slow is way out of line. He has been the Purina #1 All age Open dog enough times to ensure that at least a whole ****load of judges liked his style.

If you haven't seen the dog run you should STFU and not rely on 3rd hand gossip.

Damn little regards

Bubba


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Huge difference between going with purpose in a controlled manner and walking. Does the dog leave directly when ordered....does the dog take direction crisply....does the dog and handler work as a team. Does the momentum pick up through the blind....That to me is pleasing..... doesn't have to be lightning fast jsut with purpose. Now...crawling and reluctance to take direction...is the mark of a true pig.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have seen Pirate run and both my son and I have Pirate pups and I will not stfu.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Bubba said:


> Actually- I HAVE seen Pirate run and LOVED the show enough to buy not just one but 2 Pirate pups and would buy more in a heartbeat. Pirate isn't the showiest dog around but calling him slow is way out of line. He has been the Purina #1 All age Open dog enough times to ensure that at least a whole ****load of judges liked his style.
> 
> If you haven't seen the dog run you should STFU and not rely on 3rd hand gossip.
> 
> ...



Come on Bubba... Do you really think Wayne was insulting Pirate? Of all people? All you have to do is look at the title to 75% of his threads to know that isn't the case. 

The man loves his Pirate dog... (As he should)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

My judging philosophy has changed over the years. 

That evolution is detailed in three articles that Terry Rotschafer and I wrote for Retrievers Online: Judging the High Roller, The Callback Process, and Picking A Winner. 

As a result, in the past year, I have dropped dogs that exhibited poor style. I have also dropped dogs one or more placements for poor style, and once out of the placements entirely.

This is what Paul Sletten wrote as a comment to the article: Judging the High Roller




> An obvious concernwhen handling and judging a High Roller is missing a piece of cover because youhave time for one whistle and not three. Perhaps people could be judging moreon style and the type of dog they want to watch or to breed. Just because a doghas one hunt and some other dog was perfect, doesn’t mean the perfect dog hasto win! Perhaps the dog that showed more heart and courage and style is the dogwe would rather own, breed to, etc.


This is what the Rule Book says on page 47



> It is recommended that a Judge should have clearly in mind, and for each test, precisely what type of performance he expects, since such work will merit a high rating in his records. Then he should observe, and record, in what respects and to what degrees the performances by individual dogs have either exceeded or fallen short of that previously established “par,’’ in each test. Hence, when the stake is completed, several Judges will arrive at their final decision about placings on the basis of which dog, relatively, did better work than another in each of the several series.


Moreover, the Rule Book mentions "style" eight different times.

I don't think that dogs that walk exhibit "style"


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I have seen dogs that do not train or test with style, hunt like a whole different animal. They know the difference.
But I have no desire to train a dog that doesn't look like it wants to be there.
Style is pleasing to the eye. It doesn't need an explanation.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Back to the OP...
Does this dog have a history of past trials or is this his first trial?...and if not, what did the judges say about it then? Just saying.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

I can forgive a slow blind _if_ (and only if) the marks were full of style; after all it may be a wise thing for trainers to anticipate judges, who for whatever reason, set blinds which penalize the fast stylish dogs. If we set tests which allow for grand expressions of style, the reasons to train or tolerate a sluggish performance will evaporate.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Eric Johnson said:


> Corey-
> 
> In fact I don't know the dog if you meant that literally. I do have a short anecdote to contribute. I was running a NAHRA Intermediate. Long story made short ... my dog was slower and slower on the land double. The entire field was cut briars. She didn't falter but she was slow and so the judges put her out ... only 1 of the 8 running that failed. I volunteered to run her as test dog for the water series. Marks were good and on the way to the blind, she put up a goose that had been nesting on a island that was on the line to the blind. When the goose took flight, she kept trucking and did fine. The 7 dogs in contention all couldn't get past the scent on the island. So ... the failed test dog was the only dog that passed that day.



No no by "that dog"I meant the ones we have all seen, not one that is walking on one blind or due to conditions, not a specific dog. You know when you see them they are pigs and no more want to do what they are doing than you want to stick a pin in your eye. They are only doing it because they have been taught to do so. That is far different from a dog that wants and loves to do it. Want, love, and desire on the part of the dog is a huge part of style.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> WOW!!
> 
> I totally dislike a dog that walks on blinds whether in training or at a test!!
> 
> ...



Thank you.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Since we're telling stories, I had a young dog go out on a blind for "showing no desire" The dog went, but got tripped on a goose decoy, got rattled, lost momentum, she recovered and got the blind. After Really nice marks. I was pretty disgruntled, but I volunteered to run test dog for the next series, sit to flush. It was pretty nice to watch my uninterested dog, jumping into cover well over her head, flushing a covey of quail, before flushing the bird that had gotten out of it's box. She sort've sat while the gunner shot multiple times, winging it. I _*released*_ her before she broke; to retriever the bird, which she again flushed, chased and caught in the air, right about the time the judge caught up enough to call no bird. Might've muttered while leaving; Isn't that's the dog you put out for lack of style? Several other contestants might've been commenting loudly as we left the line TOO BAD THAT DOG DOESN'T have any DESIRE . I still get those comments, every-time I go run that test, usually after she breaks :?.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

As a judge, handler, and owner, I want a dog that shows style on marks and blinds.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> As a judge, handler, and owner, I want a dog that shows style on marks and blinds.


Agreed!! And that should go for all breeds, correct? I have heard people (judges) say, "well, that's the breed for ya"...I don't agree with this. The standard is breed blind...there are no "Unless its a _____(choose a breed), then they can walk to the bird"...


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

I have and do own both types of dogs mentioned in this thread, dogs that walk to the blind and dogs that flat out ears back run. The dogs that walks to the blind was one of my first dogs and I did that to the dog through improper training. 

Through time and experience I have become a better trainer and more importantly a better handler who can read a speeding bullet. It is a true joy to watch a young dog run a blind with a much enthusiasm as they run for a flier. 

In regards to the OP I do consider speed/style a quality that should be judged. I would rather watch and or judge a young dog with passion run a blind even if it takes a few more whistles than watch a "piggy dog" line a blind on a walk(painful). 

And. I still run my piggy dog, I just run her with understanding, patience and all the time wondering how she would've turned out if i was a little wiser.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> As a judge, handler, and owner, I want a dog that shows style on marks and blinds.


Agreed. If we are to be judging dogs on their merits, and a large part of that is their merit and contribution to the gene pool, we should place emphasis on the exhibited traits that are inherent vs trained. Marking is largely inherent. Style is inherent (though lack of style can be the result of improper training.) I dislike judges who nitpick dogs for "missing a piece of cover" or "not taking a tight line" and put up dogs who might step on all the dots above those who show intense and focused drive but might skid a bit on the curves. Speed is not the only factor of style, but a dog that plods or walks to a bird, absent mitigating circumstances, is not representative of a dog that should be rewarded or a breeding that should be repeated.
Style matters and should be rewarded when evident and penalized when absent.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Agreed. If we are to be judging dogs on their merits, and a large part of that is their merit and contribution to the gene pool, we should place emphasis on the exhibited traits that are inherent vs trained. Marking is largely inherent. Style is inherent (though lack of style can be the result of improper training.) I dislike judges who nitpick dogs for "missing a piece of cover" or "not taking a tight line" and put up dogs who might step on all the dots above those who show intense and focused drive but might skid a bit on the curves. Speed is not the only factor of style, but a dog that plods or walks to a bird, absent mitigating circumstances, is not representative of a dog that should be rewarded *or a breeding that should be repeated.*
> Style matters and should be rewarded when evident and penalized when absent.


I agree with everything you have said, except, what I bolded.
Piggishness can be bred, OR created.
A stylish dog on blinds, one that is charging like its a flyer, should be marked up for style even moreso than one showing style on marks.
What would you think if you saw a kid taking out the trash, like he was going to the candy store?
Bonus style points.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have dropped dogs for style. However its not always the dogs fault. Training methods often dictate much of what people read as style. Pirate was brought up in this thread. I've watched Jerry train dogs for years and if you pay attention you will see that most of Jerry's dogs run blinds in the same manner. Jerry has a standard he implements in his training program requiring precision and control. His dogs run in accord with that. I wouldn't call their performance poor style. I've also trained a few Pirate dogs, have one in for FF right now, and they are hardly piggy. Some may be soft, but not piggy. Every dog is different and as a judge you have to have enough dog experience to see what is going on with the dog. Read the rule requirements again and apply it to the dog in front of you. Experienced judges know the difference.

/Paul


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Thanks Paul....wish more judges saw the difference between a dog's concern with being a part of a team and being deliberate as compared to one that doesn't want to do the work. Would much rather judge a dog that was on line and working as a team player than a speed freak that just wants to run and is no where near the line.

Gar


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Does "Fast" always define style?

What about a dog that is slow,deliberate and very compliant?

Am I wrong in my opinion that those traits are stylish to me?

Isnt style very subjective??


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Paul and Lpgar for saying more succinctly than I was able to get in print. I wish I could find the video of Cha Cha and Lyle winning the SRS Championship last year. She has won a bunch of money for Lyle. I am guessing about $50,000. Anyone would be proud to own her. She is an excellent marker and runs blinds under control but she is not fast.

Can anyone find the video of the last series of the
2013 SRS Crown Championship?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Here is what the FT Rule Book says about style




> (7) Style is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance at trials, for example: by the gaiety of his manner in approaching the line, by his alertness on-line, by his eagerness and speed on retrieves, by his water-entry, by his pick-up of birds and by his return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance; together with ability to mark, they constitute the most important factors for placings in Derby Stakes. In all stakes, in respect to “style,’’ a desired performance includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) a fast-determined departure, both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the “fall,’’ (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast return. Dogs may be credited for outstanding and brilliant exhibitions of style, or they may be penalized for deficiencies in style — the severity of the penalty ranging from a minor demerit, to elimination from the stake in extreme cases.



Doesn't sound like walking on blinds constitutes good style


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

But isnt it subjective? Isnt it an opinion?

what does the rule book mean when it states something is a MODERATE fault?

Some might look at a dog as Piggy... maybe I would see it as compliant,deliberate..
Now, I will say Others, have MUCH more experience than me watching Dogs..,,but real world,, you you will have various differences of opinion as to what defines style. And what I read the rule book states,, lack of attributes the rule book defines style with is a MODERATE fault,,but left up to Judges to determine if it considers the performance passable with some moderate faults.. Its subjective..isnt it?


Some might, if you dont agree with them,, say something like,, "well,,you have a lot to learn".... Others on the opposite side of the coin,, might think some views are over judicious.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Hank is very fast and Rowdy is slower on blinds, which I like. I timed them on a channel blind (time to bird). Hank was 1:40 and Rowdy was 2:10 minutes. So, is Rowdy not stylish?


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Ted beat me to it by quoting the Rule Book. It really does paint a very clear picture of what Style is! Why do people think it is excusable to not display!

Surely we all know when a dog is walking, trotting or galloping(or loping or cantering!). 95% of todays dogs gallop on marks. If they don't almost all judges begin to note the dog's style. Whether they rule minor, moderate or major fault varies widely and depends on many factors such as repeated infractions and degree of infraction. But no where does it say that lack of style on Blinds is excusable!!

I for one am not buying this "deliberate" excuse. LPGAR hinted at the problem when he used the term "concerned". Why is the dog concerned? It's because he has been pressured to be afraid of making a mistake and thus he walks or trots. He is not thinking " I will be a team partner" and walk slow so my handler can intervene!!!

Many of us can stop our dog sharply on one sit whistle on the way to a flyer mark. The dog turns and waits for direction. Dogs do not have to walk/trot to be in control!! I do agree that we should not excuse poor control or avoiding the test just because the dog is stylish. But I don't agree we can excuse lack of style just because poor style dog A won this or that or has X points. 

A lot of judges deviate from the Rule book and its intent"



In summary: 

*Style *is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance,
including:

· Gaiety of manner, including when approaching the line
· Alertness on line
· Eagerness and speed on retrieves
· Water entry
· Pick-up of birds
· Return with birds

*Style *makes for a pleasing performance, evidenced by:

· Alert and obedient attitude
· Fast determined departure, both on land and into water
· Aggressive search for the fall
· Prompt pick-up
· Reasonably fast return

Cheers

PS. Wayne- Speed is not the only criteria-read the other traits! Does he walk or trot on marks? Does he walk or trot on blinds?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Im confused as to what rule book we are supposed to reference.. The FT rule book,, or the HT rule book.. The OP was discussing a master test!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Im confused as to what rule book we are supposed to reference.. The FT rule book,, or the HT rule book.. The OP was discussing a master test!




What does the HT Rule Book say?


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> Im confused as to what rule book we are supposed to reference.. The FT rule book,, or the HT rule book.. The OP was discussing a master test!


Yes, you are right! Ted and I were excerpting from the FT Rule Book. But the discussion of style and what it is should not change whether you are talking hunting retriever, hunt test or field trial retriever. I will grant you that penalties may vary amongst those. However, as someone posted "who wants to hunt over a retriever that doesn't want to be there", or may I add "is concerned" or "isn't enjoying its work". 

I sure expect style in all 3 venues! 

Actually I would expect to see even more style in the average hunting dog or hunt test dog which are "generally" required to do less onerous blinds--(IN GENERAL!)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ht rule book has already been quoted. Lack of style listed as a Moderate fault..


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

From the AKC Rule Book for Hunting Tests




> II. Style is apparent in every movement of a dog by the *gaiety* of its manner, by its alertness, by its *eagerness and speed* on retrieves, by its water-entry, by its pick-up of birds, and by its return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance. Style and Marking constitute the most important abilities of Retrievers, but this does not imply that a dog which excels in Marking and Style should not be scored lower on other abilities, even to the extent of not receiving a Qualifying score for lack of or serious for lack of or serious deficiencies in those required abilities.
> 
> 
> In any hunting situation Style includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) a* fast, determined departure* both on land and into the water, (c) an *aggressive search* for the fall, (d) a *prompt pick-up*, and (e) a* reasonably fast return*. The absence of these components of Style shall be reflected in a dog’s score, even to the point of scoring a dog zero (0) on Style.



I don't think walking meets these requirements - objectively or subjectively.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Many times in hunt tests in the local circuit, dogs are given passes that they probably shouldn't, the dogs continue to run and sometimes because who is running them, some judges crunch numbers to pass the dogs. As recent as this year zeroed a dog out on style , with the agreement of my co-judge. The handler wanted to know why and was told. The dog since has run several more , watched the dog run, no improvement, but, passed. Kinda like in the all-age too where you have had some very big time dogs walk on blinds, but, overlooked and sometimes the dogs place or win. A old question, is it better to do a quick handle on a mark or let the dog hunt several acres and stumble on the bird. In FT's some judges with a handle on a mark will not get you back for the next series and maybe not even get a JAM in the last series.
A large hunt will be scored better then a quick handle in some judges books, as I always say when judging or being judged, 2 plus 2 are 4 but so are 3 plus 1! I guess thats the art of judging, it just isn't an exact science, rule book or naught.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

*Moderate Fault:* Poor style – the lack of an alert and obedient attitude, a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water, an aggressive search for the* fall,* a prompt pick up, and a reason-ably fast return.

II. Style is apparent in every movement of a dog by the gaiety of its manner, by its alertness, by its eagerness and speed on retrieves, by its water-entry, by its pick-up of birds, and by its return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance. Style and Marking constitute the most important abilities of Retrievers, but this does not imply that a dog which excels in Marking and Style should not be scored lower on other abilities, even to the extent of not receiving a Qualifying score for lack of or serious deficiencies in those required abilities. In any hunting situation Style includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the fall, (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast return. *The absence of these components of Style shall be reflected in a dog’s score, even to the point of scoring a dog zero *

The rule book states its a moderate Fault.. The absence of these traits shall be reflected in a dogs score EVEN to the point of scoring a dog a zero.. But,, its considered a MODERATE FAULT..

It would seem to me, that the dog should be dinged for a slow blind, but the overall performance of the test, including its Marking ability,and the *accuracy *of how the dog ran that slow blind. What if (Hypothetically agin) the dog stepped on all the Marks of the triples he was throw, both Land and Water, showed good style and good "Go" on those, *then lined or 1 whistled his slow land and water blinds? *
Tell me,, are you really going to fail that dog?? Remember,, NOT PLACE that dog ,but FAIL him for not meeting the standard?

What if: its a very old HT veteran dog... 

Are you really going to ask yourself the question *"would I hunt with this dog"* annd then Fail Him????
The rule book states its a MODERATE Fault,, and leaves it up the a subjective view of the Judges....
Not to PLACE,, but to PASS!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

As for NOISE!

From the Hunt Test rule book.....
*Minor faults - Slight short whining or one bark – while on the line or on being sent to retrieve.

Moderate Faults - Moderate whining of short duration

Serious Faults - Loud and prolonged barking or whining

**So as for noise.. NOISE is listed as a Serious fault.

compared to lack of style,,only being a MODERATE Fault..*


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I guess what I am trying to say,, Is I would want to watch the dogs total performance at a HT before I would make the decision to drop it..

The Hypothetical dog the OP is talking about,,that is..


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> *Moderate Fault:* Poor style – the lack of an alert and obedient attitude, a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water, an aggressive search for the* fall,* a prompt pick up, and a reason-ably fast return.
> 
> II. Style is apparent in every movement of a dog by the gaiety of its manner, by its alertness, by its eagerness and speed on retrieves, by its water-entry, by its pick-up of birds, and by its return with them. Style makes for a pleasing performance. Style and Marking constitute the most important abilities of Retrievers, but this does not imply that a dog which excels in Marking and Style should not be scored lower on other abilities, even to the extent of not receiving a Qualifying score for lack of or serious deficiencies in those required abilities. In any hunting situation Style includes: (a) an alert and obedient attitude, (b) a fast, determined departure both on land and into the water, (c) an aggressive search for the fall, (d) a prompt pick-up, and (e) a reasonably fast return. *The absence of these components of Style shall be reflected in a dog’s score, even to the point of scoring a dog zero *
> 
> ...


I am not sure I follow your rationalization to pass such as dog as you yourself quoted the Rule Book above and which I high-lighted in Blue. The Book clearly allows a moderate fault to be a non pass. You as judge will factor in the things you observe such as old dog, degree of infraction and so on and allow consideration. But clearly if the dog does not show style, the Rule Book is saying that this moderate fault can be grounds for elimination.

The Standard is the absence of the components of style. If the dog has some, OKAY, let's have another look. BUT a walking dog is not displaying "Style" according to the Rule Book. 

Moderate does not mean irrelevant!

Is there a reason you want to reward such a dog?

PS: Noise is listed as a minor, moderate and serious fault depending on degree!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The rules say it Can be failed for this,, not it 
SHALL
I would pass the hypothetical dog because of my answer to the HT question.. "would you HUNT with this dog"
I witnessed the hypothetical dog run the hypothetical test, and in that test, the dog stepped on all the marks in 3 triple series,displaying good drive and desire on all those marks... and then he either lined or 1 whistled both the land and water blinds.. demonstrating a very valuable dog to hunt with..

his only Moderate fault is he runs slow blinds

There is a very special place in my heart for this hypothetical MH dog..
my answer is yes!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

We all want the best in our dogs. All we can do is do the best we can w/help if needed and deal with the results favorable or not. We do have choices and it begins in the morning when we wake up.  Just saying...


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Gooser, not trying to pick a fight with you by any means, but would you necessarily want to hunt with a dog like this? Were the blinds so slow that cripples would get away before the dog got there? The rules do say that style is important enough that a dog can be dropped for a lack of style. 

Out of curiosity, do you have a very special place in your heart for that particular dog or dogs that tend to go slower on blinds?



MooseGooser said:


> The rules say it Can be failed for this,, not it
> SHALL
> I would pass the hypothetical dog because of my answer to the HT question.. "would you HUNT with this dog"
> I witnessed the hypothetical dog run the hypothetical test, and in that test, the dog stepped on all the marks in 3 triple series,displaying good drive and desire on all those marks... and then he either lined or 1 whistled both the land and water blinds.. demonstrating a very valuable dog to hunt with..
> ...


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Here is the deal. Beauty, style, is in the eye of the beholder or the judges in this case. Personally I don't like watching slow dogs but I have watched many that are extremely functional, just no fun to watch. I would suggest also that a dog that runs marks eagerly but blinds extremely slowly has been taught either unwittingly or otherwise to run in that fashion. I have a little bit of an issue, in that particular case, marking down a dog for a man made problem


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

"Style and Marking constitute the most important abilities of Retrievers"


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

paul young said:


> As a buyer, I am more interested in what the parents were like at 6 months of age than I am in what they can do at 3 or 4 years of age. You can't purchase the trained aspects of the parents when you buy a pup. The next important consideration for me is the health history of the parents and grandparents.
> 
> As I already have said, a dog that is showing good style in marking situations, but is very slow on blinds is likely to be the product of poor training methods and/or inappropriate corrections on blind work.
> 
> ...


No reason not to agree with any of that Paul. I might argue that "fully trained" is the point where dogs get to show off their full set of abilities, be that FC/AFC level or MNH or whatever they achieve. That is where breeding decisions seem to be made, so what title a dog achieves can effect whether or not there are ever puppies available from that dog (esp in the case of Labradors). 

If judges are passing dogs with poor style they are not doing the breed, the dog, the trainer or future puppy buyers (that may rely on titles in the absence of intimate knowledge of the dog) any favors.

Agree 100% that a MH should be a dog who you say "heck yes I'd hunt over him" to... 

It's on the trainer to get the most out of the dog and showcase it's natural abilities, trainability among those. If they fail at their job then they failed the dog. If I fail my dog please judge us accordingly. I will have to live with what I've done if the dog had good desire and I took away his style with my training.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

A few general thoughts:

1. Both the HT and FT Rule Books emphasize the importance of a balanced (that is, able to do both mark and blinds) advanced (that is, MH or All Age) retriever
2. Both Rule Books emphasize the importance of style
3. As a judge, the suspected influence of poor training on a dog's style on blinds has no bearing on my scoring. Maybe the dog has poor style because of training. Maybe the dog has poor style because it simply doesn't like to run blinds. That is not for the judges to determine. The judge is there to evaluate the dog that is running - not the suspected techniques in training a dog.
4. Until we employ computers to evaluate dog performance, there will always be a subjective element to judging. However, it is misleading to say that evaluation of style is purely subjective. Both Rule Books tell judges what they should be looking for in evaluating dogs. It is when judges ignore those criteria and supply their own criteria that the evaluation becomes purely subjective. 

I cringe when I hear

- That dog is simply walking because of poor training.
- That dog was so good on its marks that we can overlook its poor style on the blinds
- Something is wrong with the dog, I have seen that dog before with great style
- That dog is the high point Open/Am/whatever dog, I want to see more of him/her (even though the dog's work is substandard)
- That dog only needs __ points to title, qualify, ....

A judge evaluates the dog that is in front of him/her pursuant to the Rule Book. Not the dog the judge has seen before. Not the dog's reputation. Not the handler's reputation. But, the dog that is running that weekend.

5. I want the winning/placing dog to exhibit:
- Superior marking
- Superior blinds
- Style
- Solid line manners (which I think are often ignored, but that is another topic entirely)

As I have gotten older (and more experienced in the sport), I have become more assertive about looking for the balanced retriever - that dog that run marks and blinds with style and is tractable on the line. I think that particularly in the All Age Stakes, judges have an obligation to find the balanced retriever, because so many people make breeding decisions in the absence of detailed information about the sires or dams. Many people make such decisions based on prefixes (NFC, NAFC, FC, AFC) or point totals, without knowing much, if anything, about the underlying dog.

But, returning to the original point

I don't know why so many people are prepared to ignore, excuse, forgive ... poor style
When you pass, place, etc. a dog with poor style, you are promoting poor style

I think that is a mistake.

Ted


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## Scott Krueger (Jan 25, 2008)

its not a timed event is it?? my trainer has a dog that is very methodical and a big thinker...works at her own pace all the time...young dog that is lights out on marking and handling....she doesnt do field trials so what does time matter???


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> Gooser, not trying to pick a fight with you by any means, but would you necessarily want to hunt with a dog like this? Were the blinds so slow that cripples would get away before the dog got there? The rules do say that style is important enough that a dog can be dropped for a lack of style.
> 
> Out of curiosity, do you have a very special place in your heart for that particular dog or dogs that tend to go slower on blinds?



I wonder the time comparisons of a moderately fast swimming dog running a 350 yrd water blind, compared to a dog walking a 100 yrd HT land blind.

A very long time ago, I had the priviledge to train with a person who had this very Hypothetical dog. The dog literally walked on land blinds, but the accuracy of those blinds were incredible. He walked dead straight lines.! On HT distances, the dog rarly neede more than 1 whistle. most of the times he would line the blind.
His water attitudewas good. He swam well,his speed in the water wasnt painfully slow. Again, swam straight, didnt require a lot of handeling at HT distances. 

His marking was really good. His speed on marks was average, I would'nt call it slow..

The dog gained a Master title..
He Hunted a LOT! and was a valuable asset in the blind. He picked up hundreds of birds a year.

For you HT guys,, Isnt this what we are after??

I dont like piggy dogs. It would be hard for me to own one. Thats my PERSONAL view. But, I also like to watch a compliant dog work for someone, regardless of speed.

I like watching a compliant dog work..It is much harder for me to watch a crazy fast non compliant dog, ignoring a "Few" whistles,and casts, than a dog who works as a team with the handler. even if the dog walks on his land blinds..

Many people who ran HT in the early 90's in Colorado know this dog of whom I speak. many would say he was painful to watch run a land blind, if all you watched was his speed,, but if you really looked at the work,, he was a guided,compliant machine..

I totally agreed he defined a Master Hunter..

As a hint.. the dogs call name was Nick.. the owner, a very hard working member of many clubs, and a respected master Judge..

Respectfully:

Gooser


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> *
> Many would say he was painful to watch run a land blind*, if all you watched was his speed,, but if you really looked at the work,, he was a guided,compliant machine..
> 
> I totally agreed he defined a Master Hunter..
> ...



When you promote your own personal preferences, and ignore the Rule Book, you make judging a totally subjective matter. I think that when you pass/place a dog that is "painful" to watch, you are doing HT or FT a disservice.


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I totally agreed he defined a Master Hunter..


Gooser,
By your definition he might have, but not according to the rule book. As has been stated before style is very important in judging dogs and shouldn't be ignored. I thought Ted's post was excellent.

Buck


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> Many people who ran HT in the early 90's in Colorado know this dog of whom I speak. many would say he was painful to watch run a land blind, if all you watched was his speed



In the early 90's many dogs ran blinds at a slow pace. In those days they were rewarded often with places and passes.
*
Times have changed. *

Lardy made a big impact here by showing that dogs could run with great style and do the most advanced work. The vast majority of top FT pros and Amateurs now know how to train dogs to run spectacular controlled blinds with great style. Style is not just speed by the way-too many are making that simple conclusion.

I am with Ted in believing we should seek the whole package these days, As the requirements for the tests have progressed so should the requirements for the dog in all aspects. 

Labels like "workman-like" (as used in National write-ups), methodical, deliberate, own pace, usually mean the dog doesn't meet the definition of style so clearly described in both the FT and HT books.

As far as a hunting dog goes, I don't want just a meat dog that can do an ordinary days hunt. I want a "pleasing to the eye performance" by a dog that can do an *extra* ordinary day's work. And no I don't want the wild out-of-control dog!

For me, the quality of the hunt is very important and that includes a quality performance by the dog in all aspects. Quality is not measured just by the size of the bag! Heck why would so many of us fly-fish and avidly practice catch and release and even by-pass catching fish in an easier way sometimes?


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Very good post Ted. I think this discussion is over.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Speed is a component of style. Absolutely! My problem with the discussion is there seem to be many who condone a style score of zero based on the dog walking on a blind. There are a myriad other factors that will contribute to the score. Did the dog leave with purpose? Did the dog confidently carry casts? Was attitude, body language of a dog enjoying their work or simply going through the motions? Did the dog willingly enter water, cover ect? All these attributes should be considered and in a hunt test graded. A poor score may cause the dog to fail just as poor scores in marking and trainability can. 

I am very encouraged that most agree style is a very important consideration of dog work. I feel when presented with a dog on the line, a score based on all the performance would be easy to reach.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Speed is a component of style. Absolutely! My problem with the discussion is there seem to be many who condone a style score of zero based on the dog walking on a blind. There are a myriad other factors that will contribute to the score. Did the dog leave with purpose? Did the dog confidently carry casts? Was attitude, body language of a dog enjoying their work or simply going through the motions? Did the dog willingly enter water, cover ect? All these attributes should be considered and in a hunt test graded. A poor score may cause the dog to fail just as poor scores in marking and trainability can.
> 
> I am very encouraged that most agree style is a very important consideration of dog work. I feel when presented with a dog on the line, a score based on all the performance would be easy to reach.



In my opinion, walking is not simply speed. It is indicative of a lack of style. Period.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> In the early 90's many dogs ran blinds at a slow pace. In those days they were rewarded often with places and passes.
> *
> Times have changed. *
> 
> ...


Thank you Dennis for your thoughtful insight!!!
I wish to reiterate your quote "style is not just speed" as I agree that many are jumping to the conclusion that speed & style are synonymous.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> In my opinion, walking is not simply speed. It is indicative of a lack of style. Period.


On this point we agree. It certainly warrants a poor score!! My contention is that it may or may not constitute a zero score in a hunt test.


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

No one is disagreeing that walking is not style..... Ted and Dennis now suggest unless they are at a full gallop that style points need to be noted and a pass or win not warented. I can not disagree more. It takes alot of work to have a dog and handler team that meshes in style. Some handlers just can not through physical or "mental" impairment handle the total fire breather. In my definition as long as the team works well and the dog goes with purpose....and the elements of the blind are achieved it is a pass....no if ands or butts about it. It seems these days we are to forgive the "fire breathers" all sins. Many trials they are judged well for "lining a blind" and missing the majority of the elements. We are also to forgive the wining....dancing...and line theatrics on marks because they are "stylish". Not in my duck boat. You dance around like that and there are fewer ducks to shoot. You bust down the cover infront of the boat because you won't take a swim bye...again fewer ducks to shoot. 

Again style is in the eye of the beholder.

Gar

If I judge one that is truely on line...does with great intensity and drive and has a very few whistles or none...hey you might win yourself a trial...but a team that gets the chicken with a few whistles at a slower pace and works as a team.....you will get to see the next series if everything in front is OK as well.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> No reason not to agree with any of that Paul. I might argue that "fully trained" is the point where dogs get to show off their full set of abilities, be that FC/AFC level or MNH or whatever they achieve. That is where breeding decisions seem to be made, so what title a dog achieves can effect whether or not there are ever puppies available from that dog (esp in the case of Labradors).
> 
> *If judges are passing dogs with poor style they are not doing the breed, the dog, the trainer or future puppy buyers (that may rely on titles in the absence of intimate knowledge of the dog) any favors.*
> 
> ...


Funny that so many here are quick to criticize breeding's and fight to preserve the breed (silver) and yet are happy to overlook things like style as a criteria for bettering the breed.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Lpgar said:


> No one is disagreeing that walking is not style..... Ted and Dennis now suggest unless they are at a full gallop that style points need to be noted


Nope-read my earlier post. I referenced lope or canter which are very different gaits than a full gallop. I also mentioned "trot" and said very few dogs do marks at a trot and if they do then judges are alerted to style. I would note a dog that trotted on marks but I would not necessarily penalize a dog that trotted on marks or a blind. I would record it however and continue to assess style. .

When I am conditioning my dogs, I can trot them very fast without them breaking into a canter. They love this work and are very stylish doing it. When I see so-called deliberate trotting dogs on a blind, they usually also have their ears pinned back, their tail tucked and certainly not a posture of gaiety.

This isn't a comparison of stylish but out of control or wild dogs. I hate just as much as the next person if my dog is unruly at the line because of trial excitement. Especially when the same dog isn't that way at home or while hunting. But if my dog walked on a blind or even trotted slowly I would be disgusted even if he lined the blind.

Gar, I would be amazed if you were not concerned with your young dog doing blinds at a trot! She sure doesn't run marks that way!

Cheers


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

It occurs to me that too much style might be at least somewhat synonomous with out of control. 

As fishduck knows well, my dog has so much "style" that it is sometimes easily mistaken for lack of steadiness and/or trainability. Would those who are willing to give the slow dogs a pass (if you will pardon the pun) on the walking end of the scale be just as willing to allow for my high-roller at the crazy end of the scale as long as he does the work? If you are willing to let a dog get away with walking as long as he runs a straight line are you not also compelled under the same logic to give my more stylish dog a wider runway or allow more time to sit on the whistle on the blinds because he is running so hard? Keep in mind it's fairly easy to set up a test that will allow my dog to take himself out; so far, you can just ask him to honor. What do you set up to eliminate the walking dog rather than marking down or eliminating for lack of style?

I have really enjoyed this discussion. I am preparing for my very first judging assignment, and one thing I am struggling with is how much benefit of the doubt to give dogs like this, and how much to just judge the work you see that day. As Ted said, all judging is subjective, and we all have our biases. I have a soft spot in my heart for inexperienced handlers attempting to control a fairly talented dog that struggles to keep it together because I am such a handler, but how far can I go to keep a dog/handler playing just because I empathize with them?


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Dennis.....marks are a test of vision...drive....desire...and memory Blinds in my book are test of control and teamwork. And yes....the young dog will not be jogging on blinds...count on it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=AiZstt_Z12c, 
Dennis,
I'm not a horse person. On Rowdy's blinds, is he running at a trot, lope or what. He is running at about 2/3 the speed he runs on marks. Somehow he knows when there is ducks for blinds as opposed to bumpers. With bumpers he runs slightly slower.
How does this fit your definition of style.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> I have a soft spot in my heart for inexperienced handlers attempting to control a fairly talented dog that struggles to keep it together because I am such a handler, but how far can I go to keep a dog/handler playing just because I empathize with them?


Easiest thing is to put on a test channeling enough that you don't have to nit pick these questions. Cut and dry, the dogs do their marks or not, the blind has enough meat that it requires teamwork to pass. Then if the math can add up the dog keeps playing, if it can't dog is out, such a test that the handler usually already knows where they stand. Put on a good channeling test, a fast-high roller without enough control to watch his mark, nor enough brains to figure things out; will go out. It's usually the same test that a slow piggador, won't have enough perseverance to complete. Handlers pick up their dogs, say thank you judges, but we just didn't have it today, and you don't have to have discussions on why we put your dog out on being too much or lacking in style. Other than that the best you can do is keep the math, (it's always hard to go against math, judges that _*actually*_ write in the numbers never have much argument ). Then at the end you draw a circle and let the handlers approach one at a time, be sure your back is to something solid; if your co-judge has ran to the airport already.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> It occurs to me that *too much style might be at least somewhat synonomous with out of control. *
> 
> As fishduck knows well, my dog has so much "style" that it is sometimes easily mistaken for lack of steadiness and/or trainability. Would those who are willing to give the slow dogs a pass (if you will pardon the pun) on the walking end of the scale be just as willing to allow for my high-roller at the crazy end of the scale as long as he does the work? If you are willing to let a dog get away with walking as long as he runs a straight line are you not also compelled under the same logic to give my more stylish dog a wider runway or allow more time to sit on the whistle on the blinds because he is running so hard? Keep in mind it's fairly easy to set up a test that will allow my dog to take himself out; so far, you can just ask him to honor. What do you set up to eliminate the walking dog rather than marking down or eliminating for lack of style?
> 
> I have really enjoyed this discussion. I am preparing for my very first judging assignment, and one thing I am struggling with is how much benefit of the doubt to give dogs like this, and how much to just judge the work you see that day. As Ted said, all judging is subjective, and we all have our biases. I have a soft spot in my heart for inexperienced handlers attempting to control a fairly talented dog that struggles to keep it together because I am such a handler, but how far can I go to keep a dog/handler playing just because I empathize with them?


Bolded statement is exactly right. If a dog is so fast as to be out of control, or not working with his handler... To me, that is not stylish, but more on the annoying side. I have had a couple of dogs like that... One lived to be 13 1/2 and I loved her very much, but I washed her out of trials at a pretty young age because she had her own agenda all the time and it didn't include what I wanted or cared about. 

I love a fast, stylish dog... But they have to be under control. If not, there is nothing stylish about it.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

Cantering shows an intelligent dog!
"...The canter is a preferred gait for cruising or loping easily across a field because it is not tiring and it provides good support. It is often slower than a trot but it can be easily shifted into the faster transverse gallop. Because of the even distribution of support (tripod involving hindlimb followed by tripod involving forelimb), the canter is suited for rough ground or where footing is uncertain...."
http://vanat.cvm.umn.edu/gaits/canter.html

Lots of good information on various gaits on that site if anyone is interested.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=AiZstt_Z12c,
> Dennis,
> I'm not a horse person. On Rowdy's blinds, is he running at a trot, lope or what. He is running at about 2/3 the speed he runs on marks. Somehow he knows when there is ducks for blinds as opposed to bumpers. With bumpers he runs slightly slower.
> How does this fit your definition of style.


Wayne

Rowdy in this video displays more than adequate style and I would not note or penalize.

Allow me to expand. Gaits are important to know and understand. They will teach you much about how a dog turns and sits, when they feel off or pressured and when they are hurt and much more.

A walk is a 4 beat gait. Each foot steps down in sequence. A trot is a two beat gait. Both the right front and left hind move together, then the alternate pair. Trotting is an efficient gait for covering long distances. Coyotes and wolves use it a lot. It is a "reserved" gait not used for active pursuit. It is very symmetrical and the gait of choice for conditioning.

Lopes and canters are a 3 beat gait with 2 legs down and then 1 and 1. It also has left and right leads which influence how a dog turns left and right. A lot of dogs have a preferred lead. 

A gallop is a full all out run and at one point all 4 legs are off the ground. It is a dog running hard!

So in the video. Rowdy is galloping on the marks-he is loping on the blinds.

There are definite signs of Rowdy concern in the video. This behavior is often necessary for many dogs in order to be under control at a test.

Watch as he first comes to line. He is taking quick nervous steps as he tries to stay at heel. Good for that attempt but it shows some concern and mental pressure. I am not criticizing this! 

As he approached the line his ears are partly up and out-a mixed signal. He wants to be alert and intent but he is being reserved. His tail is also lowered and has a curl to it and low wag. This also shows compliancy but concern.

Note when he sees the location of the first mark to the left, he now has his ears up and is alert and focused. Prior to that there was more concern to be right. Again-not criticizing.

BUT you should be aware of this! He is not relaxed. At a trial he may be much more excited and act differently. I always like a dog in training to be in the same mood as at a trial. Hard to do!

Finally, this was a VERY exciting set-up for a cold blind. First the dogs picks up 3 marks successfully. Then you shoot a diversion shot and send for a moderate blind. I would expect such a set-up to really foster a "GO" attitude.

Based on how he first came to line and his kinda nervous glances around, I suspect that if there were no marks but just a cold blind and you said "sit, dead bird, back" his departure would be much more reserved and likely a concerned and perhaps a very slow lope. I am not saying this deserves penalty. I would have to see it. I

don't watch all your videos and I don't recall a display of bad style but I have often thought one dog was reserved and concerned. He definitely feels your pressure. You quite often handle for minor line deviations in training. While this might be wise in a trial, it can be anti-momentum in training! 

Bottom-line? Rowdy displays enough style-no penalty. At a test he will likely display more! Red Flag for training! I would like to see less sign of him feeling the pressure! I don't think he is a wild Indian that needs to be kept under wraps!!

Disclaimer: This analysis is more than presumptuous based on one video but I thought it was an opportunity to discuss aspects of style and what we should watch for in training based on a sample video. Sample size 1 plus tidbits-take it for what it is worth!

Sincerely,


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

hotel4dogs said:


> Cantering shows an intelligent dog!
> "...The canter is a preferred gait for cruising or loping easily across a field because it is not tiring and it provides good support. It is often slower than a trot but it can be easily shifted into the faster transverse gallop. Because of the even distribution of support (tripod involving hindlimb followed by tripod involving forelimb), the canter is suited for rough ground or where footing is uncertain...."
> http://vanat.cvm.umn.edu/gaits/canter.html
> 
> Lots of good information on various gaits on that site if anyone is interested.


Barb

I somewhat agree with this as a canter can be a very slow easy gait. Dogs rarely do use the "slow" canter which in horses is often labeled lope. Dogs do often canter when going for a relaxed run. In my studies of coyotes and wolves and foxes I have seen many canter off the field. This was often in response to concern and fleeing from a potentially dangerous or concerning situation. When I observed then just covering ground with intent it was a trot-a super efficient gait.

If I road at moderate speed my dogs canter but it is faster than a trot. If I push it is a gallop. It's hard to keep them in a trot except when they are tethered. 

Go for a walk with them and you will see all 4 a lot. I really watch for a dog that changes gaits smoothly as well as leads. When I see otherwise, I am alerted to an early lameness issue!! This stuff is not just frivolous details. It is all about the mental and physical health of your dog!!

Thanks for link I will look at it closer.

PS. NOT SURE ABOUT THE LINK TO INTELLIGENCE!!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I don't care if the dog should/would pass or not.

I wouldn't want to own it.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

That intelligence comment was rather tongue in cheek 
The link has some nice videos and patterns of footsteps. 




RetrieversONLINE said:


> Barb
> 
> 
> Thanks for link I will look at it closer.
> ...


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Dennis,

I'm more less talking FT dogs ( AA dogs) it seems that from watching dogs from week to week or setup to setup they may have a different attitude from one blind to another, it seems that when the judges set up a tough poison bird blind where the bird is thrown just off line( feet) most experienced dogs seem to get a bit more nervous and have a much different gate than the weekend befor when there wasn't a poison bird thrown. Do you think the need to train for this type of weekend setup causes dogs to look piggy??


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Dennis


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Todd Caswell said:


> Dennis,
> 
> I'm more less talking FT dogs ( AA dogs) it seems that from watching dogs from week to week or setup to setup they may have a different attitude from one blind to another, it seems that when the judges set up a tough poison bird blind where the bird is thrown just off line( feet) most experienced dogs seem to get a bit more nervous and have a much different gate than the weekend befor when there wasn't a poison bird thrown. Do you think the need to train for this type of weekend setup causes dogs to look piggy??


YES for some trainers! NO for others!

Judges don't make dogs look piggy! Trainers Do!

Trainers do when they train for such tests without considering the dogs' style. 

As I said before, dogs can be trained to do these tests with style!!

Finesse and ABC--Attitude, Balance and Control!!

You can teach or you can test. Top trainers teach their dogs to skim past poison birds by a few feet with style! Others "punish" and you know the result-piggy!


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Reality is that no one sets out to make their dog slow.

If in the course of training you do something wrong repeatedly and don't realize it you end up with a slow dog. 

It isn't as simple as back, nick, back to make him faster. Nor is the answer patting him on the shoulder.

Often times the solution is to wash out that dog and start over. If you are 65 and he is 3 it is hard to choose that solution.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

THANK YOU EVERYONE for such a great thread, especially Ted & Dennis. I really appreciate it!


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## blinddogmaddie (Mar 7, 2008)

I have what many consider a slow dog. She's faster on marks but will slow down on blinds, but keeps her line. She has her MH and still does well in Master Tests. When she runs a test she seems no different than many of the other dogs running. Alert at the line,steady, quiet and attentive.Watching her run, many would say she doesn't have any style and is slow, which is true. But most people think differently after they find out about her handicap. Most people dont even notice her handicap until I start running the blind and they then try and figure out what the heck I am saying giving casting commands. I dont tell the judges that she is handicapped while running the test unless they ask. Considering that she has been almost completely blind since birth, she does well. She see's no marks or me casting to a blind. If she got any faster she may start running into objects enroute to the fall or blind area. Now if we were being judged on how fast my dog is for style, we may have a hard time getting through tests. But because we work well together as a team and complete the requirements of the tests, we do well. And yes, I do love watching those high powered dogs run, its exciting. But a lot of us have to deal with the dogs we have, slow or fast ...... "blinddogmaddie"


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

blinddogmaddie said:


> I have what many consider a slow dog. She's faster on marks but will slow down on blinds, but keeps her line. She has her MH and still does well in Master Tests. When she runs a test she seems no different than many of the other dogs running. Alert at the line,steady, quiet and attentive.Watching her run, many would say she doesn't have any style and is slow, which is true. But most people think differently after they find out about her handicap. Most people dont even notice her handicap until I start running the blind and they then try and figure out what the heck I am saying giving casting commands. I dont tell the judges that she is handicapped while running the test unless they ask. Considering that she has been almost completely blind since birth, she does well. She see's no marks or me casting to a blind. If she got any faster she may start running into objects enroute to the fall or blind area. Now if we were being judged on how fast my dog is for style, we may have a hard time getting through tests. But because we work well together as a team and complete the requirements of the tests, we do well. And yes, I do love watching those high powered dogs run, its exciting. But a lot of us have to deal with the dogs we have, slow or fast ...... "blinddogmaddie"


My hat is off to you.  Kudos.
Off to bed...training tomorrow for two pups, Mine and other friend.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Lpgar said:


> No one is disagreeing that walking is not style..... Ted and Dennis now suggest unless they are at a full gallop that style points need to be noted and a pass or win not warented.


I disagree with your interpretation of what I have written. Where have I ever said that a dog must gallop? Frankly, these discussions of trots, canters, and gallops are more detailed than I care to indulge



> I can not disagree more. It takes alot of work to have a dog and handler team that meshes in style. Some handlers just can not through physical or "mental" impairment handle the total fire breather. In my definition as long as the team works well and the dog goes with purpose....and the elements of the blind are achieved it is a pass....no if ands or butts about it. It seems these days we are to forgive the "fire breathers" all sins.



Again, you seem to be deliberately misreading my words. I do not think that out of control dogs are stylish. And, more to the point, as I have mentioned in my posts, I make book on out of control dogs, just as I make book on dogs that have poor style.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Ted beat me to it by quoting the Rule Book. It really does paint a very clear picture of what Style is!
> In summary:
> 
> *Style *is apparent in every movement of a dog and throughout his entire performance,
> ...


I am off to the Missouri Valley Field Trial. But, before I leave, I want to address the following comments which are liberally sprinkled throughout this thread. - 

- Judging is subjective. 
- Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 
- Style is in the eye of the beholder 

The above comments suggest/imply that a judge is free to do whatever he/she elects when it comes to evaluating style. 

I dispute that suggestion. 

The Rule Book, which Dennis cited (and I quoted above) specifically tells judges what they should be looking for when evaluating style. To put it another way, the Rule Book frames what we are to evaluate subjectively. Judges are not free to look - or ignore - performance to their heart's delight if they follow the Rule Book. I freely admit that there are judges who do not read the Rule Book before they judge, or follow it when they have read it, but that is another subject. The question is, what should judges do, according to the Rule Book, in evaluating style? The answer is that they are to look for - gaiety, eagerness, alertness, aggressive search, prompt pickup, reasonably fast return. When you ignore these elements and instead focus on the number of whistles a handler uses in evaluating style or some other explanation for a mechanical, deliberate, or slow dog, you are ignoring the Rule Book. 

What puzzles me most about this thread is why so many people are defending/protecting dogs that "walk" on their blinds, are "deliberate" in their performance, or even "painful" to watch. 

Eons ago, Bill Tarrant lambasted collar trainers for producing "robots." I still hear/read those complaints in posts. I remember the days of the Escalon shuffle. They are, by and large, gone - because we can train dogs to be compliant and still look good. 

Why would anyone want to promote the bad old days? There is simply no reason to ignore (which is really the same as promoting) poor style. Our dogs are capable of doing amazing things and looking stylish while doing it. Those are the dogs that I want to win/place when I judge.

Ted


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## Philip Carson (Mar 17, 2009)

Are lopes and canters 1, then 2, then 1; front leg, then other front leg and opposite hind leg, then other hind leg?


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

I think the only people that like ploddy dogs are the ones that create them.......and those rose colored blinders fit them well. I don't believe anyone actually enjoys watching, judging, training or owning a dog that lacks style.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Lugar and Phillip, See post 116 by Dennis Voigt. He clearly says a lope is more than adequate for style. He goes into the step sequence for the different gaits.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Some of this with various descriptions of "how fast or how slow", should all be put in perspective. The venue you run in has some influence, the ability or lack of, ones training level, in developing blinds, is another.
If a dog lacks style shouldn't have to be descriptive, it should be obvious. Without exception, most well bred retrievers can be taught blinds and to run with some form of speed past a lope. Some dogs never learn the difference between a mark and a blind but maintain a high level of speed without precision . They squeak through with various waving of arms, jumping around, being led to a blind through shots, decoys and short distances. In other venues that will not get you out of first gear. When one says back or go get em or whatever command is given on a blind a dog should leave the line as least in my opinion, 3/4 the speed one would get on a mark of a stylish dog. Anything less is a dog "not pleasing to the eye" . In my old Rex Carr notes (as everyone wants to quote) he says "it should be apparent to the gallery that the dog has not been forced", mark or blind . Fortunately I have had dogs that weren't the sharpest tack in the box, but, left the line on a blind with some zest, I found good homes for them...


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## Philip Carson (Mar 17, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Cantering shows an intelligent dog!
> "...The canter is a preferred gait for cruising or loping easily across a field because it is not tiring and it provides good support. It is often slower than a trot but it can be easily shifted into the faster transverse gallop. Because of the even distribution of support (tripod involving hindlimb followed by tripod involving forelimb), the canter is suited for rough ground or where footing is uncertain...."
> http://vanat.cvm.umn.edu/gaits/canter.html
> 
> Lots of good information on various gaits on that site if anyone is interested.


That's a very informative site. Thanks


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree with everything you say here.

However, the point I was trying to make is if we are going to make allowance on one end of the spectrum then we have to make allowance on the other end too if we are even interested in being consistent. Where does that end?

Let's turn this one on its head a bit. You and I run our dog on the same marks. My dog is amped up in the holding blind, takes 14 heel commands going to the line with no visible effect, is bouncing around on the mat, ends up 10 feet in front of me by the time the last bird goes down because he is trying to catch the flyer before it hits the ground, and just gut hunts the last bird he picks up - but he runs 100 mph when he leaves the line. Your dog is the opposite in line manners and steps on all the birds. What would your reaction be if I got the same pass you did because the judge just likes really stylish dogs and is willing to overlook all the faults because my dog runs 100 mph?

I think we would all expect that my dog would not pass because allowing for the described behaviors is simply not within the rules. But a lot of folks seem to be willing to give a non-stylish dog a pass for walking on blinds even though that is not within the rules either. That is what I am struggling to understand. 



Hunt'EmUp said:


> Easiest thing is to put on a test channeling enough that you don't have to nit pick these questions. Cut and dry, the dogs do their marks or not, the blind has enough meat that it requires teamwork to pass. Then if the math can add up the dog keeps playing, if it can't dog is out, such a test that the handler usually already knows where they stand. Put on a good channeling test, a fast-high roller without enough control to watch his mark, nor enough brains to figure things out; will go out. It's usually the same test that a slow piggador, won't have enough perseverance to complete. Handlers pick up their dogs, say thank you judges, but we just didn't have it today, and you don't have to have discussions on why we put your dog out on being too much or lacking in style. Other than that the best you can do is keep the math, (it's always hard to go against math, judges that _*actually*_ write in the numbers never have much argument ). Then at the end you draw a circle and let the handlers approach one at a time, be sure your back is to something solid; if your co-judge has ran to the airport already.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Steve, I am no judge but you are looking for an average score of a 7. A 7.0 is just as good as a 10 when running hunt tests.

My old retired dog Hudson was a creeper but he could mark and run a blind on a string. Often the marks down for creeping were offset by the good scores on marks and blinds.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> I think we would all expect that my dog would not pass because allowing for the described behaviors is simply not within the rules. But a lot of folks seem to be willing to give a non-stylish dog a pass for walking on blinds even though that is not within the rules either. That is what I am struggling to understand.


My feeling judging is subjective but as when looking for an average of 7 overall in all attributes; dogs on both ends of the spectrum (bell-curve) can pass as long as everything taken in together adds up. I don't see how personal preferences should add significantly into judging, you have categories you assign numbers to and then you do the math. But I'm not keeping in a dog because I like that he's fast, or hate that he's fast, vs. if he's on the slower end. I keep a dog in because his score in all aspects averaged are good enough to keep him in. I don't care if; I personally like this type of dog, who his parents are, who's running him, if he might be bred, if he'd improve the breed in my estimation etc. etc. I'm a performance judge, such things are not my concern, All I care about what the dog shows in my test, in the areas I'm supposed to be scoring, if the math comes out to 7, he's determined to be to standard for that day. 

To the OP original aspect he says the dog walks, some people got into the subject of gaits etc. Which is very interesting but WAY to Heady for me . What is a walk? To some it's the slowest crawl to the bird imaginable, to others a walk is a relaxed ground covering quick-step. To me, a walk is the slowest speed _my dog_ is capable of performing, if not crawling on her belly . It took a conformation judge 30 hysterical mins to get me to understand this walk is actually a trot. Apparently her galloping after bumpers through the parking lot, was wrong.  Thus I define walk, a nice ground covering quick-step, which saves energy, allowing a dog to last hours while hunting, when other dogs have to put back in the truck. I find such to be very appealing, and definitely not lacking in style. Still I've seen many plodders who are somehow able to go much slower than this pace. For some the movement is determined and still appealing to watch, for others it's definitely not pleasant (I'd call this a crawl). Still to judge what's appealing and what is not; it's something you have to see, personally; style is reflected more in movement and disposition, than speed.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I just had issue with the comments people had giving a dog an automatic failure ("0")


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Something has happened. I did a Chinese fire drill with five ducks, changed my technique on setups: run a blind first, then marks and then a second blind. Marks using BB and blinds with ducks.
Rowdy is now running at a full gallop on blinds. It is a treat to watch him put on the brakes when I hit the sit whistle. He continues to run at a gallop on BB marks.

I got to thinking that in HT he ran much harder on blinds because he knew there were ducks. In HT on five land blinds, he lined four and two whistled the fifth. It was a strong cross wind and I aimed him slightly up wind and he held the line. My mistake.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> I just had issue with the comments people had giving a dog an automatic failure ("0")


Mike looking through the post I am not sure anyone indicated they would zero for a single instance, but repeated would result in a zero


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I like a dog that breaks with style.

/Paul


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I like a dog that breaks with style.
> 
> /Paul



Go big AND go home!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Walking on a blind = zero style points. If not an absolute zero a very low score that is not going to pass that dog.



This was ona the comments I was talking about!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> This was ona the comments I was talking about!



Very well, I should have said blinds not blind. However, it depends. I have seen pigs that absolutely hate blinds, don't want to do them and as such have zero style and I would drop for one. That would not be a general rule however.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Something has happened. I did a Chinese fire drill with five ducks, changed my technique on setups: run a blind first, then marks and then a second blind. Marks using BB and blinds with ducks.
> Rowdy is now running at a full gallop on blinds. It is a treat to watch him put on the brakes when I hit the sit whistle. He continues to run at a gallop on BB marks.
> 
> I got to thinking that in HT he ran much harder on blinds because he knew there were ducks. In HT on five land blinds, he lined four and two whistled the fifth. It was a strong cross wind and I aimed him slightly up wind and he held the line. My mistake.


Wayne

Your comment above caused me to consider two important points about "style"

First: I do think you had been concerned about your dogs "style". It bothered you and you were seeking, perhaps confirmation that it was OK! Good for you!

I think that most people that defend a dog that is slow and deliberate and works at 1/2 speed have not yet done the following. Go into a private room all alone and look in the mirror and ask the "man in the mirror, " Am I truly happy with the style that my dog shows on blinds?"

Second: Style is not "in the end" a product of a drill or an instance of pressure or a day of confusion. Instead, it is a product of the entire approach to training including how you do custom work for each dog, how you sequence set-ups, how you balance work and play, land and water, birds and bumpers. While some dogs are pre-disposed to poor style through genetics and lack of desire, almost all retrievers out of working lines can be taught to handle and run blinds with style given the right "custom" approach.

Some dogs may not have enough in them to warrant the trainers effort. I can relate to that! But's let's not excuse poor style and let's be clear where the blame generally lies! The Man in the Mirrow!

PS. The Man in the Mirror is not a reference to Michael Jackson's song. Instead, it is a reference to a poem (_The Guy in the Glass_) cited by Master Horseman, Ray Hunt, in virtually every one of his clinics.

You can google it or go to http://www.theguyintheglass.com/gig.htm


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> , some people got into the subject of gaits etc. Which is very interesting but WAY to Heady for me . What is a walk? To some it's the slowest crawl to the bird imaginable, to others a walk is a relaxed ground covering quick-step. To me, a walk is the slowest speed _my dog_ is capable of performing, if not crawling on her belly . It took a conformation judge 30 hysterical mins to get me to understand this walk is actually a trot. Apparently her galloping after bumpers through the parking lot, was wrong.  Thus I define walk, a nice ground covering quick-step, which saves energy, allowing a dog to last hours while hunting, when other dogs have to put back in the truck. I find such to be very appealing, and definitely not lacking in style.


Your comments excerpted above explain why so often RTF posters have such different views. Too many make up their own definitions which are inaccurate or not appreciated by most. You cannot re-define "walk" in a way that most of the rest of the world does not!. What you define as a walk is not a walk-it is likely a trot. Yes I know many of you didn't want to indulge in this gait discussion, but the whole reason it was brought up was to create a common vision of how a dog moves. It's like the folks who defy all the operant conditioning terms and make up their own definition of reinforcement or punishment! 

A walk is not_* "a nice ground covering quick-step, which saves energy, allowing a dog to last hours while hunting". 

*I really appreciate people having different viewpoints on the good, bad and ugly but it would sure help if people didn't make up very unconventional "definitions" which are in conflict with well-defined terms that anybody can learn about from google! The reason we use accepted definitions and terms is to communicate better among ourselves. 
_
No wonder we often seem to have such different opinions even though we don't disagree that much!!

_*Are you sure we disagree?

*Way too heady Cheers!_


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Been there and done that for sure. As you might have guessed from my previous posts on this thread, our problems lie on the other end of the style spectrum.



badbullgator said:


> Go big AND go home!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

RookieTrainer said:


> However, the point I was trying to make is if we are going to make allowance on one end of the spectrum then we have to make allowance on the other end too if we are even interested in being consistent. Where does that end?
> 
> Let's turn this one on its head a bit. You and I run our dog on the same marks. My dog is amped up in the holding blind, takes 14 heel commands going to the line with no visible effect, is bouncing around on the mat, ends up 10 feet in front of me by the time the last bird goes down because he is trying to catch the flyer before it hits the ground, and just gut hunts the last bird he picks up - but he runs 100 mph when he leaves the line. Your dog is the opposite in line manners and steps on all the birds. What would your reaction be if I got the same pass you did because the judge just likes really stylish dogs and is willing to overlook all the faults because my dog runs 100 mph?


Not really your example, but there is one person walking around with a colored ribbon from an Am right now that got it because his dog showed tremendous style on a water blind. 

Looking at the picture after the series, the blind was a little shaky and we were considering whether the dog should be among the ones we dropped. However, that dog moved about twice as fast as all the other dogs on the water blind and it was noted. We decided that because of the zest for the work the dog showed it should receive some consideration at the margin, so we decided to keep it in. The dog did a nice job on the water marks--that it would not have run if the notes on the water blind showed the opposite--and got a big piece of an Amateur.

I argued before that I would not necessarily drop the dog for the first instance of poor style but would note it. Similarly, I note good style and try to reward it. It won't overcome a multitude of sins, but I don't have an issue at all at the margin factoring style or lack of it in the decision.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Dennis, Most of the time I understand what you are saying. I generally understood what you said but not how it was applicable to me and my post. Are you saying what I did/changes were good or just a shortcut without being a true change in Rowdy attitude?


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Dennis, Most of the time I understand what you are saying. I generally understood what you said but not how it was applicable to me and my post. Are you saying what I did/changes were good or just a shortcut without being a true change in Rowdy attitude?


Hi Wayne I do not assume to answer for Dennis, but I personally think that seeing improvement in speed or intensity on blinds in just one session of using birds mean that is a very short-term answer, a band-aid to a larger problem. If you were to use birds all the time on blinds, I think you would see the dog revert back to his "normal" way of running blinds once the novelty of the birds wears off. The mere presence of a bird at the end isn't enough to overcome a slightly sour attitude on blinds (I say this meaning dogs in general -- not your specific dog -- because I haven't watched your videos).


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Dennis, Most of the time I understand what you are saying. I generally understood what you said but not how it was applicable to me and my post. Are you saying what I did/changes were good or just a shortcut without being a true change in Rowdy attitude?


Anney made a good point in noting that style derived from one certain procedure may not be long-lasting. 

My point-not directed solely at you and you dog was that ultimately "style" shows itself as a result of the total approach to training as well as the characteristics of the dog.

I said: 
_
Style is not "in the end" a product of a drill or an instance of pressure or a day of confusion. Instead, it is a product of the entire approach to training including how you do custom work for each dog, how you sequence set-ups, how you balance work and play, land and water, birds and bumpers. While some dogs are pre-disposed to poor style through genetics and lack of desire, almost all retrievers out of working lines can be taught to handle and run blinds with style given the right "custom" approach.

_Sometimes using a gimmick to change a dog's behavior can get things going better. I have no idea whether what you did will cause a true change in Rowdy attitude!! I don't really know you, Rowdy or what you do. 

I can say that in the long run "*everything that you do" *will matter more than what you did yesterday!!

Hope you understand that!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Dennis


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

So you're telling me there's a chance for us?!?!?! Mine has quite the water entry and swims like something is after him. He loves the work, it's the rules that he doesn't really care for sometimes. 

I see what you are saying on the margin for sure, and I would agree. Unless a dog is literally walking, I would have to see it again if the work was otherwise good. Likewise, unless the high roller was over the edge and out of control, I would give that dog the benefit of the doubt if the work was otherwise good. 



DoubleHaul said:


> Not really your example, but there is one person walking around with a colored ribbon from an Am right now that got it because his dog showed tremendous style on a water blind.
> 
> Looking at the picture after the series, the blind was a little shaky and we were considering whether the dog should be among the ones we dropped. However, that dog moved about twice as fast as all the other dogs on the water blind and it was noted. We decided that because of the zest for the work the dog showed it should receive some consideration at the margin, so we decided to keep it in. The dog did a nice job on the water marks--that it would not have run if the notes on the water blind showed the opposite--and got a big piece of an Amateur.
> 
> I argued before that I would not necessarily drop the dog for the first instance of poor style but would note it. Similarly, I note good style and try to reward it. It won't overcome a multitude of sins, but I don't have an issue at all at the margin factoring style or lack of it in the decision.


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## Rod W. (Sep 16, 2015)

This was a good thread until everyone gathered up the chips and called it a night. I can understand when it is time to go find another wall to beat against. 
I'm just new to the Forum and I am content reading forum history rather that chiming in. So having said that I would like to Thank everyone for their time it takes to read and post. I would guess there are no bad intentions on anyone's part, just difference of opinion and expertise? Agenda?

1) I don't know if all of the posters have ever looked at, or understand, a judges score sheet for an AKC Hunt Test. Pretty simple math there.

Vebatim from a AKC Retriever Hunting Test Evaluation Form. If this is an issue someone needs to see it then I will download a photo.

A dog must receive a separate independent average score of *5.0 or higher in each ability* related to *Marking* = *(Marking, Style, Perseverance, Trainability*) *AND *a separate, independent average score of *5.0 or higher in each ability* related to *Blinds = (Style, Perseverance, Trainability).*
Furthermore: If at any time a dog is graded zero (0) by two judges for the same ability, the dog cannot receive a qualifying score and the handler must be informed...
If that is met then... The equation is…
(average marking + average style + average perseverance +average trainability) */* 4 = Score, If score is greater than or equal to 7...*PASS*
By mathmatical default, *Marks* carry the most weight.

2) Style is lined out/defined damned similar, almost per verbatim for FT and HT rules. Judged a bit differently though.

3) Whether or not a judge would hunt over any specific dog or another is irrelevant to a pass/fail on a Hunt Test. This is not the test. I have hunted over world class Shooting Retrievers that wouldn't do diddly squat on one of these tests. And vice a versa...

4) Hats off to Dennis Voigt!
Really? *How The Hell Can Anyone Read Their Dog* if you do not grasp the fundamentals of gait.

5) I like that Wayne Nutt. He takes what is said here and then takes it to the field. That is a helluva openmindedness. What he knows… he learned from The Dog. Wayne you should read some Ray Hunt…

6) Again. Thank you for everyone that posts. It is time consuming but in the end, it is what we are all passionate and dedicated to.

7) It's all about the dogs.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Thanks Rod this was a thread I had forgotten about. Probably good to go back and read it again.


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