# Hail Call to Theodore shih



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,

I have been reading your posts on another thread, and I was wondering what your thought process is when you are setting up a training blind. I understand that you are looking for "black and white" setups in water like fatter water entries as not to confuse a young dog. Really interested in your input as to how to set up really good training blind set-ups.

thanks in advance:

Jon


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jon

What constitutes a good training blind depends on:

1) Age of dog;
2) Sophistication of dog;
3) What you are attempting to accomplish

As far as drills, concepts, discussions, etc. go, you would be hard pressed to find a better source than Dennis' Retrievers Online. It would be difficult - no, impossible - for me to accomplish in one post what Dennis has spend years doing.

But, here are some general thoughts

1) The blind is only a general reference point for you, the handler/trainer. Don't let the line to the blind - or winning the training session - override your mission to teach the dog.

2) You may set up a blind to teach one thing - for example, keyholes - but, don't focus on that specified thing (here, keyholes) if a more basic issue arises (e.g. failure to stop on whistle, take a cast, etc.) That is, don't be wedded to what you think is the purpose of your blind, if something else comes up that needs to be addressed. Be flexible. What is important is that your dog learns something. It may be something different than you originally envisioned.

3) There are training blinds and there are competition blinds. The best blinds in competition have a beginning, middle, and an end. Depending on your dog, and its sophistication, you may want to have one of three, two of three, or three of three. 

4) It is important not to make everything impossibly difficult. Let the dogs have success.

Off to work out.

Will try to return with more specific thoughts

Ted


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> As far as drills, concepts, discussions, etc. go, you would be hard pressed to find a better source than Dennis' Retrievers Online. It would be difficult - no, impossible - for me to accomplish in one post what Dennis has spend years doing.


Agreed! I would also like to thank you, Dennis, Marilyn, Vicki, and everyone who contributes to such a great publication. It has been invaluable in my training.
Jon


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Oh, good.....someone asked. Thanks for the general thoughts..very helpful here. 

Will watch for more insight. 

Judy


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## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Jon
> 
> What constitutes a good training blind depends on:
> 
> ...


_Thanks Ted, great mind thoughts.....I appreciate the input......we always need a slap to the head once in a while to keep focused.......;-)..........exactly why I'm doin' da Rorem Seminar again here in TX.........Thanks.......Dan_


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,

Lets say we are working with a fairly young dog 2-3. If you have been working on let's say keyhole blinds. Once your dog becomes well versed with this "factor" would you then add another factor into your keyhole blind set-up's such as cross wind or side hills? Just trying to get a handle on progression.

Jon


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Just got finished with watching Project Runway - love watching the creative process

The foundation to running good blinds is a good drill foundation. Before you begin insisting on performance in the field, you need to know that your dog has an understanding of what is expected of it.

You have casting drills - so it understands casting
You have no-no drills - so it understands navigation of obstacles
You have tuneup drills - so it understands angle concepts on water and land.

Once you know that your dog has the necessary skill set, then you can take it out into the field.

Let's say that you want to work on angling a mound close to the mound

For younger dogs, you would not insist on a sliver of the mound. Rather, you would allow the dog to roll over the fat of the mound.

For more sophisticated dogs, you would work on getting a thinner piece of the mound. If the dog is too fat or too thin, you handle.

For the most sophisticated dogs, you might call back and re-run.

You gauge what you want, by the dog that you have.

=======================================

If dogs do well, and you want to increase the level of difficulty, you could

1) Back up and increase the distance from mat to mound;
2) Approach mound from a greater angle;
3) Add something (crate) to push dog off the mound

=======================================

If dogs do poorly, and you want to decrease the level of difficulty, you could:

1) Move up and decrease distance from mat to mound;
2) Make approach as square as possible
3) Eliminate obstacles


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

When you create blinds - either in competition or in training, you be aware of the factors that make blinds difficult. Then you can add or subtract as the situation requires.

For example as a basic matter, you need to consider

Wind - velocity, angle
Distance

Then you consider

Terrain - pitch, slope (does it tend to push or pull dogs in one direction or another)
Obstacles - water, cover, ditches, etc.

Then you consider

Angle of approach (the more square the approach, the easier to navigate)
Distance from hazard (the closer you are to hazard, the easier to navigate)

Then you consider man made hazards

Old marks
Bird crates
Gunners
Poison birds

The more you add - if they work in concert - the harder the blind becomes


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The key is understanding how factors work to increase or decrease the degree of difficulty

For example, lets say that you want to work on cross wind blinds. You have a field which is high on the sides and lower in middle
Wind blows right to left (Note: this means dog's tendency will be to fade left)

If you want to make the blind more basic, you run in the valley. Eliminate terrain as a factor, make the dogs only deal with wind

If you want to make it harder, you run on the right side (but not at top) and set the line so dogs must run along side hill (remember - fade with wind = left, tendency to want to fall downhill = left)

If you want to make it harder still, add a gunner or bird crate just to the right of the line to the blind (this increases the tendency to drop to the left)

Want to make it harder still?
- Look to set the line so that the dog must angle cover and easy path is to the left
- Put a dry gun in the field way off to the left (drawing the dog to the left)

What you do is identify primary factor (wind) the tendency induced by primary factor (fade with wind to left) and factors that you can add to increase tendency to go left - which means dog must fight harder to hold the line

The key - I think - is to not have factors cancel one another out

For example, in our scenario, you would not want to add an obstacle on the left of the line that would help a dog fight the wind (for example, a bird crate close to the line that would push a dog to the right)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

If you wanted to create a three-peat situation

For fighting the wind, you might
- run your first blind at a shallow angle into the wind
- increase angle of cross wind for second blind
- increase angle even more for third blind


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks Ted. I sure look forward to your take on training. again THANK YOU>


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Here, again is where you see my ignorance.... I'm trying to visualize "Fat VS Thin", is it when the dog runs on the wide side of that mound, he is running FAT? If he is left and barely goes over it, considered "Thin".. Trying to grasp basic communication standard here, please forgive.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Fat - more cover, more water, more more
Thin - less cover, less water, less less

Fat negotiation of hazards is more black and white, more basic
Thin negotiation of hazards is more grey, more sophisticated

Younger dogs - make the decisions more clear, more black and white
More sophisticated dogs - you make the decision more grey put more of the responsibility on them


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Thank you............


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Off to get more printer ink!!

Gooser


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank you Ted!! Although sometime's you are way advanced/over my head most of the time!! 

Trying to learn, again thanks!!

Basic/early transition guy/ Work in progress~!


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Thank you so much for this! This is great stuff. I've printed it all out and will sit down with a cup of coffee (or two) and study it and then take it to the field..first without my dog (to walk around and just put together scenarios (yes, I am anal); and then next time with my dog....


Can't tell you how much I love these great training threads!
________
VAPORIZER WIKI


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Byron

Gauge the difficulty of the blind to the level of your dog

1) The closer you are to blind, hazard, etc. - the easier it is to negotiate (because you have more control up close)
2) The bigger the hazard - the easier it is to negotiate (it is easier to get the dog to jump in a lake than a puddle)
3) The more square your approach to the hazard the easier it is to negotiate

Then you can play with the factors to make your blinds more difficult or easy


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am off to train

Next time you go to a Field Trial or Hunt Test, try to determine how many different factors are in play ... and whether the factors work with or against one another

You will find that the best blinds (in terms of difficulty, that is) have their factors working in concert and not against one another


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

One last thought before I head out

If someone can post a diagram, or photo (as I am technologically challenged) of a field (the more interesting, the better), we can play with creating a basic blind, and then adding factors to increase the degree of difficulty


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

now this has been some helpful stuff and great points to always keep in mind (the hardest part sometimes)

thanks for this thread.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

ReedCreek said:


> Thank you so much for this! This is great stuff. I've printed it all out and will sit down with a cup of coffee (or two) and study it and then take it to the field..first without my dog (to walk around and just put together scenarios (yes, I am anal); and then next time with my dog....
> 
> 
> Can't tell you how much I love these great training threads!


Patti...Ted edited one of his posts.."key to understanding..." in case you did not see that. 

Hugs to "Pup Pup"..

ps...SURE HOPE SOMEONE WILL POST PICTURES(S) PER TED'S REQUEST..SO WE CAN TRAIN!!!


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

Some pixs to play with. First obviously is an overhead of water while the second is ground level of some land. Have fun....


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

david gibson said:


> now this has been some helpful stuff and great points to always keep in mind (the hardest part sometimes)
> 
> thanks for this thread.


You have no idea how much it is worth and it's free!

As someone posted somewhere, one typically sits in the sun all day throwing birds for the chance to run their dog a couple times in front of some Vince Lombardi type who has this knowledge and cares enough to chew your dumb ass for something you screwed up.  Best to just bite your lip and _listen_ instead of worrying whether they noticed what you did _right_. 

That is, if you really want to get better.

JS


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> Ted edited one of his posts.."key to understanding..." in case you did not see that.


Judy, thank you. I copied the edit and put it in my notes
________
Vapir Oxygen


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted, how did training go? What did you guys do? What were the set ups?

Thanks


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## moonstonelabs (Mar 17, 2006)

Good discussion Ted. Some thoughts on blinds that have helped me: blinds are first and formost about confidence. Much of what Ted has discussed has to do with building confidance. I do a lot of sight blinds ( the dog walks out with me while I plant the blind/others have the dog sit on the mat and watch the blind(s) being planted). I will often do this with several dogs at a time sending each to a different blind so they have to be on their toes. I will also have a blind they didn't see planted...the thought being they must be ready for anything and they can't always expect to have sight blinds.

Also, I try to do blinds in multiples so the dog gets a rythum going...helps with momentum.

The above applies to young and old dogs.

Bill


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted,

Thanks again for all of the information! I just got done reading your article "Run your Dog Not the Blind" Jan/Feb 2008 Retrievers online. Great stuff!! I can't wait to see what you do with the pics provided. I will try to shoot some video of some land blinds tomorrow to have you analyze. 

Jon


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> Ted,
> 
> Thanks again for all of the information! I just got done reading your article "Run your Dog Not the Blind" Jan/Feb 2008 Retrievers online. Great stuff!! I can't wait to see what you do with the pics provided. I will try to shoot some video of some land blinds tomorrow to have you analyze.
> 
> Jon


 
Don't get too carried away

This is not my day job

And I don't want it to become my second job


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Don't get too carried away
> 
> This is not my day job
> 
> And I don't want it to become my second job


 
Understood :mrgreen:


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Some very good information there.... but where is the bibliography ?

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Let's focus on land blind. Let's set up some competition blinds first

I. Account for wind. 

1) Do not run into wind
Wind in your face causes problems with:
a) Dogs winding blind
b) Dogs quartering into wind
c) No whistle at distance

2) Wind at back easiest

3) 90% crosswind generally hardest

For purposes of discussion, assume wind is blowing 5-10 mph from right to left

II. Account for sun. 

1) Looks like sun is coming up over ridge
If it is, will light prevent handlers from seeing dogs?

III. Stake

*Qualifying (easier)*
- Run from middle of the foreground 
- Through depression
- Skirt left edge of center cover circle with tree

Why?
- Cut the angle of the wind to make it easier on the dog
- No where to lose the dog out of sight
- You are pretty much going down hill and uphill straight (no angle)

*Amateur (harder)*
- Run from lower right corner of foreground
- Line goes through of dark circle in grass
- Into depression
- Cut a piece of the dirt point before you get to the center cover circle
- Over lip
- Into depression behind cover circle
- Past cover circle, up and out halfway into meadow

Why?
- Wind pushes dogs left
- Terrain up front pushes dogs left
- If you don't get the right cast either before the lip or on the lip you are probably gone
- If dog does not cast into wind, you can lose dog
Up front before cover circle (dog goes left of cover circle - out)
At cover circle, dog scoots behind trees reappears to left of circle - out
In meadow if dog fades with wind (probably out)

Notice how all factors other than dirt point before cover circle push dog left
Notice how we are angling the hazards 
Notice how we are running almost directly cross wind

*Open (hardest)*

Same general line as Open

However, place blind at horizon (more distance generally = harder)

Put bird boy on edge of first section of land, just before the land falls off into depression, on right edge of blind, to force the dogs to the left, just as they disappear out of sight for a moment

Put another bird boy on cover line before far horizon, sitting even with left edge of cover circle to draw the dogs left as they hit that long stretch of meadow on the way to the horizon (why? to draw the dogs left)

In the *Open* land blind, I am trying to create sufficient left movement of the dogs to place them beyond recovery (elimination). The handlers and dogs are so good that this is pretty hard to do.

In the *Qualifying *land blind, I am not looking to eliminate anyone. So, the corridor is designed so that the dog - even one that does not cast into the wind - should never be out of sight.

The *Amateur *is something in between the two.

There are certainly a number of blinds for this field - which seems very nice. I just wanted to give people an example of how you increase the degree of difficulty be using factors in concert with one another.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Let's focus on land blind. Let's set up some competition blinds first
> 
> I. Account for wind.
> 
> ...


 
Ted,

Are you referring to the land pic that was posted?


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Darin Westphal said:


> Some pixs to play with. First obviously is an overhead of water while the second is ground level of some land. Have fun....


Let's focus on land blind. Let's set up some competition blinds first

I. Account for wind. 

1) Do not run into wind
Wind in your face causes problems with:
a) Dogs winding blind
b) Dogs quartering into wind
c) No whistle at distance

2) Wind at back easiest

3) 90% crosswind generally hardest

For purposes of discussion, assume wind is blowing 5-10 mph from right to left

II. Account for sun. 

1) Looks like sun is coming up over ridge
If it is, will light prevent handlers from seeing dogs?

III. Stake

*Qualifying (easier)*
- Run from middle of the foreground 
- Through depression
- Skirt left edge of center cover circle with tree

Why?
- Cut the angle of the wind to make it easier on the dog
- No where to lose the dog out of sight
- You are pretty much going down hill and uphill straight (no angle)

*Amateur (harder)*
- Run from lower right corner of foreground
- Line goes through of dark circle in grass
- Into depression
- Cut a piece of the dirt point before you get to the center cover circle
- Over lip
- Into depression behind cover circle
- Past cover circle, up and out halfway into meadow

Why?
- Wind pushes dogs left
- Terrain up front pushes dogs left
- If you don't get the right cast either before the lip or on the lip you are probably gone
- If dog does not cast into wind, you can lose dog
Up front before cover circle (dog goes left of cover circle - out)
At cover circle, dog scoots behind trees reappears to left of circle - out
In meadow if dog fades with wind (probably out)

Notice how all factors other than dirt point before cover circle push dog left
Notice how we are angling the hazards 
Notice how we are running almost directly cross wind

*Open (hardest)*

Same general line as Open

However, place blind at horizon (more distance generally = harder)

Put bird boy on edge of first section of land, just before the land falls off into depression, on right edge of blind, to force the dogs to the left, just as they disappear out of sight for a moment

Put another bird boy on cover line before far horizon, sitting even with left edge of cover circle to draw the dogs left as they hit that long stretch of meadow on the way to the horizon (why? to draw the dogs left)

In the *Open* land blind, I am trying to create sufficient left movement of the dogs to place them beyond recovery (elimination). The handlers and dogs are so good that this is pretty hard to do.

In the *Qualifying *land blind, I am not looking to eliminate anyone. So, the corridor is designed so that the dog - even one that does not cast into the wind - should never be out of sight.

The *Amateur *is something in between the two.

There are certainly a number of blinds for this field - which seems very nice. I just wanted to give people an example of how you increase the degree of difficulty be using factors in concert with one another. 
__________________
*Competition does not build character - It reveals it. *
*www.freeridinretrievers.com *


*This may help*


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks Ted, this is great stuff. 

It would be wonderful if one of you talented people with pictures (to me a talented person is one who can draw lines) could draw the lines to the blind that Ted is referring to. Of course, I think I come close to seeing the line he is suggesting, but to be off even by a few feet changes everything. 

Thanks!
________
Bmw m78


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

For purposes of discussion, assume wind is blowing 5-10 mph from right to left










*Qualifying (easier)
*- Run from middle of the foreground 
- Through depression
- Skirt left edge of center cover circle with tree

Why?
- Cut the angle of the wind to make it easier on the dog
- No where to lose the dog out of sight
- You are pretty much going down hill and uphill straight (no angle)

Is this what your were thinking Ted?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Yes, good work

But, I would probably shorten up blind some (that distance is more what I had in mind for Amateur Blind)

Distance is hard to gauge from photo


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

For purposes of discussion, assume wind is blowing 5-10 mph from right to left








*Amateur (harder)
*- Run from lower right corner of foreground
- Line goes through of dark circle in grass
- Into depression
- Cut a piece of the dirt point before you get to the center cover circle
- Over lip
- Into depression behind cover circle
- Past cover circle, up and out halfway into meadow

Why?
- Wind pushes dogs left
- Terrain up front pushes dogs left
- If you don't get the right cast either before the lip or on the lip you are probably gone
- If dog does not cast into wind, you can lose dog
Up front before cover circle (dog goes left of cover circle - out)
At cover circle, dog scoots behind trees reappears to left of circle - out
In meadow if dog fades with wind (probably out)

Notice how all factors other than dirt point before cover circle push dog left
Notice how we are angling the hazards 
Notice how we are running almost directly cross wind

Ted is this what you had in mind


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Just a bit deeper to the dark cover line (road?)

But otherwise, yes


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

Great Thread. I have a 2 yr GF that has developed confidence issues on blinds. I have been running all cold blinds (with stakes with white streamers) but I think I have pushed too hard and too fast and she has lost all confidence with herself and me. Time to back up and make things more straightforward with her for a while. 

Regards
Dawn


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

For purposes of discussion, assume wind is blowing 5-10 mph from right to left









*Open (hardest)*

Same general line as Am.

However, place blind at horizon (more distance generally = harder)

Put bird boy on edge of first section of land, just before the land falls off into depression, on right edge of blind, to force the dogs to the left, just as they disappear out of sight for a moment

Put another bird boy on cover line before far horizon, sitting even with left edge of cover circle to draw the dogs left as they hit that long stretch of meadow on the way to the horizon (why? to draw the dogs left)

In the *Open* land blind, I am trying to create sufficient left movement of the dogs to place them beyond recovery (elimination). The handlers and dogs are so good that this is pretty hard to do.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I would put left hand gunner higher on hill (more like the end of your Amateur Land blind)


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I would put left hand gunner higher on hill (more like the end of your Amateur Land blind)


In the same general area or deeper to the right behind the center island of cover?


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

For purposes of discussion, assume wind is blowing 5-10 mph from right to left
Like This?









*Open (hardest)*

Same general line as Am.

However, place blind at horizon (more distance generally = harder)

Put bird boy on edge of first section of land, just before the land falls off into depression, on right edge of blind, to force the dogs to the left, just as they disappear out of sight for a moment

Put another bird boy on cover line before far horizon, sitting even with left edge of cover circle to draw the dogs left as they hit that long stretch of meadow on the way to the horizon (why? to draw the dogs left)

In the *Open* land blind, I am trying to create sufficient left movement of the dogs to place them beyond recovery (elimination). The handlers and dogs are so good that this is pretty hard to do.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I would guess just straight up the hill so the dogs coming out from that cover would then spot the gun and get pulled left.
> Walt


Yes, that is the idea


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> As long as the dog could still get a look at that gun from line??
> Walt


May have drawn the gunners just a tad too far to the right, but I think you can get an idea of how this blind works together to draw the dog to the left. thanks for the input everyone I hope we are all learning something.

Jon


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> As long as the dog could still get a look at that gun from line??
> Walt


That doesn't matter to me

I want a dog fading with the wind (which is what dogs do)
Scooping behind cover (which is what dogs do)
Run straight up the hill, rather than at an angle (which is what dogs do)

To see a gun and run towards it (which is what dogs do)

A good blind gives the dogs lots of temptation to succumb to the dark desires of its untrained heart


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

General Thoughts

Wind and Distance are primary factors in blind design

Note how complexion changes if wind shifts from right to left to left to right

Note how much easier or more difficult a blind becomes as you change distance


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Assuming this picture was taken in the morning, how about running north to south or from the left side to the right. 
Using the swale the entire length of the blind. Just off the right side of the first bush and the left side of the 2nd bush. Incorporate a bird thrower/blind planter some where along the line of the blind.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> Assuming this picture was taken in the morning, how about running north to south or from the left side to the right.
> Using the swale the entire length of the blind. Just off the right side of the first bush and the left side of the 2nd bush. Incorporate a bird thrower/blind planter some where along the line of the blind.


Let's stay with what we have for a moment before changning the scenario.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Sorry about that. I thought he was looking for different set ups.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

*General Philosophical Thoughts*

Qualifying
I want people to play, so do not want to set up a blind where dogs fading to factor (wind), will get out of sight, out of control, and out of field trial

Amateur
I am trying to get dogs to cave to factors (wind, slope, cover, distance), get out of sight, out of control, and out of field trial

Open
I am trying even harder to get dogs out of sight, out of control, and out of field trial


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

One of the most useful threads I have ever read on RTF. 

Wish all of the threads were this informational regards -

Travis


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

On Open blind

- Short right hand bird boy may give Open dogs too clear a picture and actually help dogs overall even though you create fade to left
- You could make destination more to right and place line through far depression, this would make the wind more influential - but I think dogs are more likely to scoot out of sight on middle piece of cover. This is something you would need to walk the field to consider

I am not a big fan of poison birds, but if you were going to put a poison bird in the test

- Would you put it upwind, or downwind
- At what distance

Why

Off to go training

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I would think a PB at the long gun station would influence the younger dogs left, adding to the factors we're using to push them that way to begin with. But I wonder if the really savvy, well trained open dogs would take this as a message to not go left at all, and actually help them stay right?
> I wouldn't think you'd need to add another factor to that blind.
> Walt


 
Walt

You will get the young dogs on a tough blind. The question is, can you get the experienced campaigners?

If you put PB out where old war horses can see it, they can use as marker

Bird boy hidden from line, but visible as dog emerges from cover circle can be very powerful

PB thrown right of line, right to left, could result in elimination as dogs honor their nose ... See Driggers letter to editor in this month's RFTN

What do you think?
Do you want a Poison Bird? If so, where?


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

What a USEFUL thread !!! Makes one really think.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

If we're going to use a PB, how about dispensing with both the gunners we have out there now and instead, put the PB gunner halfway up the side that little knoll to the LEFT of the center cover patch. Throw the PB left to right, landing at the left edge of the cover and just barely deep of it. Dogs that want to wrap around the back side of the cover are going to be done.

Or would the cover separating the line from the PB make it too easy??

I'm thinking most of the "warhorses" would be too savvy to bite on a shorter one on the upwind side. One cast and they would be out of there.?.

JS


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

JS said:


> If we're going to use a PB, how about dispensing with both the gunners we have out there now and instead, put the PB gunner halfway up the side that little knoll to the LEFT of the center cover patch. Throw the PB left to right, landing at the left edge of the cover and just barely deep of it. Dogs that want to wrap around the back side of the cover are going to be done.
> 
> Or would the cover separating the line from the PB make it too easy??
> 
> ...


In my opinion, you must give the handlers of fast movers two whistles to cast away from pb. Your blind is too tight for that. For older dogs, pb on left probably creates push to right. Remember you want factors to work together.


I think pb on right creates more push to left

but who knows for sure


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Or we could push the higher thrower straight across, over to the right of the bush. Right of the short gunner as well and throw it toward the bush. Once past the bush the dog could push off the poison bird and end up behind the bush and out of sight if they do not take the proper cast.

You could also move the short thrower straight left and make the dog run on the back side of him. With a possible push off now the handler would need a cast to the left that could ultimately send him behind the bush, out of sight, and in trouble.

Blinds are about team work and control. This might allow you to see who has it and who does not.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted, how did training go today?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

wade

throwing short bird. Good day.

Not sure what you are suggesting. I would be leery of doing anything to create any right hand push. Remember you want to increase the dog's tendency to fade left with the wind. Don't help the dogs go right


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok. Using same field. Run from foreground to horizon. Wind now 5-10 mph left to right. Setup qual, am , and open blinds.

Explain what factors are and how you used them in concert


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I agree Ted. I do not want the dogs to go right. Push off the short thrower yes BUT now the handler and dog must work together so that they do not get behind the bush with a left hand cast. Either by the handler giving to much cast or the dog taking to much cast.



Ted Shih said:


> wade
> 
> throwing short bird. Good day.
> 
> Not sure what you are suggesting. I would be leery of doing anything to create any right hand push. Remember you want to increase the dog's tendency to fade left with the wind. Don't help the dogs go right


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade
I think you are making the corridor too narrow and will unduly penalize the high rollers


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

You're probably right. We could however move that high thrower to the right far enough to give the handler enough rope to get them and their high roller in trouble.

56 and sunny in Colorado today? Hope you are getting some good work in with the dogs.




Ted Shih said:


> Wade
> I think you are making the corridor too narrow and will unduly penalize the high rollers


----------



## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Just got back home....Duck Creek thanks so much for the lines to the blind as described by Ted; it really helps. Haven't had a chance to read and study all responses; but looks like some great stuff!
________
Teen Vids


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Wind now 5-10 mph left to right










Qualifying blind the wind, hill, and cover all push the dog to the right, but you won’t lose sight or control.

Jon


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jon

Might consider

1) Shortening the blind (it is a long way up the hill)
2) Approaching the depression and hillside more squarely and at less of an angle

Ted


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Jon
> 
> Might consider
> 
> ...












something like this?

Jon


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Angle good

I might make shorter .... say 200 yards at most


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

*Wind now 5-10 mph left to right*










Open blind. First gunner, wind, point, and lay of the land are all set-up to push dog to the right. Long gunner is used to pull dog to the right.
I imagined the wind blowing at 90degree angle to dog

Am same line no gunners and shorten up a little may be 20-25yrds past small patch of brush.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Goosers thoughts:

Now that the wind is coming from the opposite direction(left to right)
I would run the same line as the Qual in the first discussion when the wind was right to left, but put the bird at the base of the cross shape at the horizon

My thinking being, dog drifts with the wind, so possible again to get the dog lost behind cover in center, Also the slope of the terrain at the middle to end of blind coupled with wind would encourage a RIGHT drift even more?


Go easy on Gooser:razz:


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Goosers thoughts:
> 
> Now that the wind is coming from the opposite direction(left to right)
> I would run the same line as the Qual in the first discussion when the wind was right to left, but put the bird at the base of the cross shape at the horizon
> ...


Do you want dogs to drift out of sight 

Or not?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> *Wind now 5-10 mph left to right*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What do you think happens if you crank the beginning of the blind more to the left corner?


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Do you want dogs to drift out of sight
> 
> Or not?


 
As a Judge, I would want to set up the test to challenge the dog to fight factors. So I guess I'm setting it up for the dog to get outa sight if the dog caves.

If dog drifted outa sight~~ Probably gone, or in major trouble.(dog and handler doom themselves)
I would be looking to see if handler worked hard at keeping dog left.
Same for training day.

Keep dog left!


Gooser


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MG

Depends on how big field is
Depends on how tough the marks were
Depends on whether you want to let the people play ... or pay

The point is simply by adding or subtracting factors you add or subtract from the degree of difficulty


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So my example would be considered a tough Blind for an Open dog?


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> Goosers thoughts:
> 
> Now that the wind is coming from the opposite direction(left to right)
> I would run the same line as the Qual in the first discussion when the wind was right to left, but put the bird at the base of the cross shape at the horizon
> ...


Gooser what level of dog are you thinking of? I think this would be a tough blind for a qual just because you are going to lose alot of dogs behind the center island of cover. For the Open and AM dogs I just think there is a lot more in the field to really test the dogs resolve. Anyone else have a take on this? (I could be way off base here just thinking in text)


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> What do you think happens if you crank the beginning of the blind more to the left corner?












The one thing that really stood out once you mentioned this Ted is that you are giving the big dogs the oportunity to cheat that last little piece beyond the point. My question is won't the wind help them make the decision to stay right? Or is the temptation to cheat such that they most likley will and if they did wouldn't the wind tent to help them get back online? Or in the open and Am would you consider them out if they skirt that little dip? Also notice a lot better angles all while having to shoulder into the wind adding to the difficulty of the blind. Plus you better hope you have no problems handling into the wind with all the other factors pushing the dogs to the right.

Great discussion everyone!

Jon


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Duck Creek said:


> With either line, I think the short gun works in conflict with the wind (r to l) and slope (r to l), the tendency to square the swale, then climb the hill. If you get the dog to the right side of the short gun, the tendency will be to push off right. The long gun may draw the dogs back to the right also.
> 
> If you put the short gun on the right side of the line and the long gun up the hill, I think you will have the factors all working in concert.
> 
> Steve


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Duckcreek

I was talking open or Am dog. 

Gooser


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Move your starting point further left, to the top of the swale. Leave your ending point where you have it. For the moment, take out the gunners/throwers you have in the field.

Steve, could you draw that line for me, my computer skills aren't that advanced.

Thanks



Sabireley said:


> Duck Creek said:
> 
> 
> > With either line, I think the short gun works in conflict with the wind (r to l) and slope (r to l), the tendency to square the swale, then climb the hill. If you get the dog to the right side of the short gun, the tendency will be to push off right. The long gun may draw the dogs back to the right also.
> ...


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Sabireley said:


> Duck Creek said:
> 
> 
> > With either line, I think the short gun works in conflict with the wind (r to l) and slope (r to l), the tendency to square the swale, then climb the hill. If you get the dog to the right side of the short gun, the tendency will be to push off right. The long gun may draw the dogs back to the right also.
> ...


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Without walking the field, it is hard to know precisely what will work or not

When people say put birds (either marks or blinds) where dogs don't want to go ... what I think that means is consider

The two primary factors
1) Wind
2) Distance

Then consider secondary factors
1) Slope and pitch of terrain (dogs don't like to run along side hills)
2) Cover (dogs don't like to run into cover)
3) Water (dogs don't like to get into water if there is a land option)

Then remember you can make any of the above more difficult by changing the angle of attack

Go back to where we started ... with example of mound

Easiest to get fat piece of mound up close with square approach
Hardest to get sliver of mound at distance with angled approach

So when you set up a blind, look to using

Primary factors - wind, distance
with
Secondary factors - slope/pitch, cover, water
and
Playing with angles

In my opinion, the importance of angled approaches is frequently overlooked

Use these factors in concert to create movement in a certain direction (try not to have your factors cancel one another out). 

If you don't have enough natural factors, you can add artificial factors
- bird boys (sitting, visible, hidden)
- dry pops
- sluice birds (on water)
- poison birds

But, remember
- don't have your artificial factors cancel out natural factors
- artificial factors can make the blind easier for more experienced dogs

The more basic the dog (Qual in our scenario), the fewer the factors
The more sophisticated the dog (Open in our scenario), the greater the number of factors


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Without walking the field, it is hard to know precisely what will work or not
> 
> When people say put birds (either marks or blinds) where dogs don't want to go ... what I think that means is consider
> 
> ...



Know the rules.............Always keeping in mind that the use of some artificial factors, and the manner in which others are used is not allowed by the rules at least for AKC blinds

......Good thread regards

john


----------



## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Duck Creek said:


> Sabireley said:
> 
> 
> > Steve,
> ...


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Steve, Jon

Whether bird boy helps or hurts depends on wind

One scenario was right to left
The second scenario was left to right


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Another thought for advanced blinds

Because the experienced modern all age dog is so good at identifying a concept, 

- e.g. run tight to the gun, tight to the cover,

Where you can, you want to prevent the dog from getting a picture.

You can do this by:

- Running criss-cross blinds
- Hidden entry
- Remote cast
- Cold honor

Ted


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> - Hidden entry


Love these. Allows you to see which dogs are honest and which dogs will give you the finger.



> - Remote cast


Hate these and see no comparison to actual field situations.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken

I don't like remote casts, either.

However, if you are judging on grounds where people regularly train ... and there are a limited number of good water blinds, it can be very useful in reducing home field advantage ... Particularly if used in conjunction with cold honor

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok, someone who is technically adept, start a new thread with the water photo, and we will go through the same exercise that we did with water, as we did with land


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

BOOOOOOO YAAAAAA!:razz:


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Qual. 

Wind from behind.

Line at bottom of picture.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ignor the highway


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> Qual.
> 
> Wind from behind.
> 
> Line at bottom of picture.


whoever knows this place - how high are those banks? looks like a retention pond....so the dog has to manage a sloped entry and exit, big factor i would think for the various levels....
also, how high are the points? would also introduce a factor of how long your dog is out of sight after crossing over


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I assumed Banks were sloped pretty good.

Thats why I set it up with angle entry down the slope with wind at back!

I would think dog would really want to drift left

Gooser


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Where is your wind?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Remember

First, consider primary factors
1) Wind
2) Distance

Ted


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Where is your wind?


he said wind from behind, i guess 8:00


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

The ignor feature is such a great option Isn't it Mr shih???


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mooser

Until you get some rodeos under your belt, begin with basics

1) Wind
2) Distance

Before you get to other factors

On the blind that you posted, tell me impact of wind
- Left to right
- Right to left
- At your back

Does the wind make the blind harder or easier?
Why?


----------



## pmw (Feb 6, 2003)

Very interesting thread. Just curious - at a trial where the blind is set up with the wind a major factor, what do judges do when there is a major wind change during the event? Does their 'score sheet' reflect that some dogs had it much tougher than later ones?


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Okay here goes; I admit, this response is way too long...sorry, I will get better! I think I have it all straight; writing it all down in some sort of coherent order is the hardest part; and I am sure I have made mistakes and used far more words than I needed; however, critique away at my response; I do have a thick skin; and as I learn, will try to make my responses shorter. 

IMO blind is approximately 90 yds (see scale in rt. bottom corner) and IMO is not a complex blind; however an inexperienced Master Dog or Qual dog could encounter some problems. I have given my opinions based on an inexperienced and experienced Master Dog or Qual dog running this blind. 

Experienced: IMO this blind appears to present few problems for an experienced. Distance is minimal for an experienced dog and because of distance; wind is not a huge factor for the experienced dog on this blind. I doubt that this blind would eliminate many experienced Qual dogs. 

1. Wind from behind (WSW): This is the easiest scenario.

Inexperienced dog: 

Square the entry (not wind related). 
Swim by the point (if entry squared; not wind related)
Once on the peninsula dog may square the reentry (not wind related), or
Run down the point avoiding the water (not wind related). 
May square entry (from water) onto 2nd point (not wind related).
On return dog may run bank avoiding the small water and reenter at the corner of large water (if at all ? may run the bank the entire way) (may be wind related ? most likely just avoiding water). 
If dog gets on point, dog may run around the bank (do not like to swim into the wind) (may be wind related most likely just avoiding water). 

Wind: Left to right: (I have only listed those things that would most likely be wind related). 

Inexperienced:
Less likely to square entry.
Fade right in the first body of water (not challenge the wind).
Once on first peninsula, reenter farther down peninsula or run around.
On the return watch for dog running bank. 

Wind: Right to Left: 

Inexperienced:

Square entry
Not challenge the wind, fading left and swim towards the tip of the first peninsula or even miss the first peninsula. If dog swam by the point of the peninsula could possibly swim to open water but would most likely head towards tip of 2nd peninsula. If dog hit the tip of the point may enter 3rd body of water. Cast recovery would be difficult.
________
California Dispensary


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted 

I said the wind was from behind.
Blowing south to north. (AT MY BACK)

Ignor!!!

Dont make fun a Goosers speelin!

Ya havent been here long if ya havent figgered out Gooser cant spelt!:razz:

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think!

Wind would absolutly be a factor if it ia blowing at my back, considering the angle entry.

Dog will because of the slope of the bank, and the wind direction ,will want to fade left. (MHO)

He will want to have a tendency to square the hill at the send.

He will want to square the hill on exit.

I would be ready for both these problems. 

The difficulty was set to a Master HT dog.

JMHDAO

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Wind makes blind harder. Wind is blowing dead south to dead North! (paralleing the road)

Bird would be placed a bit farther up the hill at exit than where Gooser drew it.

Distance 125 yrds.

I think I spelled those words right!

Gooser


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)




----------



## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> Ted
> 
> I said the wind was from behind.
> Blowing south to north. (AT MY BACK)
> ...


Opps, I based my one wind response on wind being behind (behind meaning the direction handler was facing when looking towards the blind which would have been WSE (StoE as opposed to StoN...)
________
Lincoln Continental Mark V History


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Reedcreek

I see where I caused the confusion. I was in a hurry to get the picture posted before I thought about what I was postin!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

When trying to predict dog behavior, remember what they prefer to do when left to their own dark devices

1) Fade with wind
2) Seek dirt, not water
3) Enter square not at angle

Generally speaking

Wind towards dirt favors judges
Wind away from dirt favors dogs


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

With a wind blowing left to right, re-entry into water could be difficult for younger dogs


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Assume wind blowing left to right
Assume also that no highway
Assume you can move line up or back
Assume you can move blind up or back

What can you do - without adding an artificial factors

1) To make the blind easier
2) To make the blind harder


----------



## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Just back from an all weekend Rorem workshop to find you all have had a very busy weekend training dogs at the computer. It looks like some interesting reading here in Ted's good blind analysis thread. I will sit back and enjoy your analysis of the qualifying test blind but I think then we should discuss whether this is a good qualifying training blind or not. The topic then becomes "Differences in good training versus good testing set-ups."

Carry on!

Cheers


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Assuming we want to keep blind with a reentry over point. 

Easier (in order): 

Move Blind at waters edge (currently it looks like it is on land)
Move line to water?s edge
Easier: Move both blind to water?s edge and Line to waters edge

Harder (in order easy to hardest): 

Move line further back
Move blind up to Hwy (pretending this is not a Hwy). Reentry will be harder
Hardest: Move both Blind to Hwy and Line further back
________
Vapor lounge


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Patti

I agree with your analysis.

Now, add a bird boy (no shot or throw)

With a left to right wind

Place the BB in a way that makes the blind:
1) Easier
2) Harder


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> If we moved the blind up behind the base of the second point and moved the line back for a longer entry the blind would be harder. But wouldn't that start to make it too much for a Qualifying stake or MH??
> Same thing with moving the line right to shallow the angle in, we're also moving closer to dirt, with the wind pushing us in.
> If we moved the line and the blind straight back away from each other, could still be a qualifying level blind but a little more difficult.
> Moving the line up closer to the water and slightly right, and the blind a little further left onto the base of the second point would make it easier.


Walt

In order to minimize the number of moving parts, we are travelling along the line that MG set and simply moving farther forward or back on that line

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> BB out in the field opposite the first point to pull the dogs right.
> BB at base of first point to keep the dog on the point.
> Walt


Not sure what you are saying here

Can someone draw a picture on our photo?


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

correct?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Walt

Did MG get it right?

Ted


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

IMHO this will make the blind more difficult by:
1) adding more distance
2) moving the mat behind the road (dog will be more apt to square with the road)
3) more distance after final piece of water (more ground for dog to fade with wind)
4) add gunner to far point (to give dog something to focus on out there and pulling
him with the wind

any thoughts?

Jon


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Walt

Hard for me to envision without diagram

Can you contact MG and work it out?

Ted


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Moose, check your pm
> Walt


Walt,

If you want I may be able to help.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Like this Walt?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Hope this is correct!


Ok, here are my thoughts - and others are free to disagree

Generally speaking

Assuming a left to right wind, I think that - without any - additions, this could be a hard Qual blind.
Hard to tell for sure without being there but

1) You have angle entry into water, where the angle and the wind are both in the same direction (right)
2) You have big piece of water for first entry (easier to get) and skinny piece of water near end of blind (harder to get)
3) Not much room to work with in second piece of water

I think you are going to have a lot of young dogs fail to get into second piece of water

Not sure that is what you want in Q


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> Like this Walt?


As for BB location, I don't think dogs need much excuse to seek dirt. Consequently, I think that 

1) Close BB could just as easily draw dog to right of BB as to left
2) Young dogs could use close BB as an excuse to hunt the point and not get off
3) Far BB likely to pull dog right and away from second piece of water

So, I think Far BB makes it harder
Don't know about close BB


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

My gut reaction to this blind is that it is harder than I would want for a Q - regardless of wind. I say that because I think that the second water entry - which is skinny - is tougher than most of you think it is.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Let's set another Qualifying blind

Wind can be anywhere you want
You can run from any part of this pond to any other part of this pond

Set up a more "black and white" blind for us


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Do You think that Jon's first placement of the BB on the end of the point would pull them left and help keep in the water?
> Walt


No, especially not with Left to Right wind

First rule of water blinds - Dogs prefer dirt to water
Second rule of water blinds - Dogs will use any excuse to avoid water 
Third rule of water blinds - Dogs are inherently dark hearted and dirt seeking

The power of dirt is hard to underestimate


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Would you consider this an AM blind or one you might use if you didn't have enough seperation in a Qual.?


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm thinking this isn't an Am blind (Square entries and fat in the water)
any thoughts?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Walt

Welcome your comments

Just have a hard time visualizing what you are saying

Ted


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Walt check your pm's


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted said:




> Let's set another Qualifying blind.


 
Gooser


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> Would you consider this an AM blind or one you might use if you didn't have enough seperation in a Qual.?


You guys are very tough

10-15 mph is a lot of wind

Repeat after me

1) Dogs love dirt
2) Dogs love dirt
3) Dogs love dirt

Thoughts

1) Because dogs love dirt, they will use anything as an excuse to avoid water and seek dirt. 10-15 mph wind towards dirt is a BIG excuse to avoid water.

2) The more times dogs cross dirt, the less likely they are to leave it and get in the water. 

Here you have two re-entrys. The dogs are less likely to get in the water after the first re-entry.

I think that with this wind, it would be a very hard Q blind.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted even with NO wind, wouldnt that be a tough blind for a qual dog??


Gooser


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MG

In Q, I prefer one point. Straight shot to point. Straight shot off point. These are babies. I want them to get on, then get off. Nothing more necessary.

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

With left to right wind

I might run from left hand edge of lower point to 1/3 of way in from left edge of top point across water to shore with little up and out


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok, since everyone wants to set up an Open AA water blind

Assume 10-15 mph wind
Left to right

For moment, no BB, poison bird, etc.

Set up a blind

Ted


----------



## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Patti
> 
> I agree with your analysis.
> 
> ...


Ted, 

It has taken me all this time to try to figure out how to post a picture on this forum (the "test section" did not help); the good news is I finally figured out how to "draw the lines" on images...step in the right direction..but cannot post

Placement of BB:

Hard: BB on first peninsula just slightly right of the point - BB may cause dog to fade slightly to the right; all factors working in concert. 

Easy: BB on land mass well to the right of the first body of water (similar to where MooseGooser placed it - only drop it down lower do not BB think will present much influence.
________
Mercedes-Benz G-Class


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> With left to right wind
> 
> I might run from left hand edge of lower point to 1/3 of way in from left edge of top point across water to shore with little up and out


Like this


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

ReedCreek said:


> Ted,
> 
> It has taken me all this time to try to figure out how to post a picture on this forum (the "test section" did not help); the good news is I finally figured out how to "draw the lines" on images...step in the right direction..but cannot post
> 
> ...


ReedCreek you will have to upload the pics to an online album like photobucket then cut and past the IMG link

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Noted.
> An Open Blind?? Running from the North side of the pond, mat 2/3's of the way between the edge of the water and the tree line. There's a tiny dark dot where my mat would be. Water entry to the right (handler right, facing the water) of the small point of land, line through the slot between the long south to north facing point and the northern most point on the east side. Out of the water over the southern point, back into the water, out of the water in the corner and up to the blind on land 50 yards or so.
> No way anyone's gonna visualize this one. Sorry.
> Walt


Like this Walt?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> Like this


No, I intended to run from lower point on right edge of pond


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Any more Open water blinds?


----------



## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> Like this Walt?



A set of judges better have few dogs and a lot of time to watch these type swims.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

this is my idea of an Am blind...extend it to go through the next piece of water and up on land for an Open blind...this is on the condition that the water is actually smaller than it really is.... so that the total distance is about 175 yds.... running from the south side...

or if you wanted to keep the distance the same, throw a poison bird on the small point at the top of the pond.

Juli


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

AA blind, start from the "V" in the virtual, lower left corner an draw a straight line across the pond to the far right pine tree at the top right corner. No BB or PB needed. shouldn't take a lot of time based on the water that is involved.



Ted Shih said:


> No, I intended to run from lower point on right edge of pond


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm sorry, move the line right to the very edge of the tree line up in the right corner.



Wade said:


> AA blind, start from the "V" in the virtual, lower left corner an draw a straight line across the pond to the far right pine tree at the top right corner. No BB or PB needed. shouldn't take a lot of time based on the water that is involved.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> Like this


I wish that I could do these fancy lines like you guys do

For Open

1) I would back up a long way from the water (past bottom of photograph if possible)
2) The line for my blind would have the dogs entering the water 3-4 feet from the left edge of the point that runs from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock, get on the point at the dog leg, then enter the water again, paralleling the point, beach left of the knob on the far shore then go up and out.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I"m sorry for my lack of better descriptions and typing errors. My right arm is in a sling from a broken collar bone accident a couple days ago. Because of that I am typing one handed, left handed so things don't always work out so well.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The reasons for my blind design are as follows

1) Dogs prefer dirt to water
2) Dogs fade with wind (L to R in our hypothetical)

So, I want to make it easy for dog to fade with wind and beach

In addition:

3) Thin entries are harder than fat entries
4) The longer the run to water, the more likely the dogs are to choose dirt
5) Once the dog gets on dirt, it has to be willing to get into the water again, dig into the wind, and settle down for a nice long swim

If dog is willing to dig in and swim, I think it will find knob on far shore inviting


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

If I wanted to toughen up my blind, I would (in order of significance to me)

1) Scent the bee jeepers out of the point from base to tip (if a dog got on any piece of the point, I would want it to want to stay there)
2) Scent the bee jeepers out of the knob on the far shore to prevent the dog from digging into the wind on the up and out
3) Consider a sluice on the right hand base of my 6 to 12 point (to make the dogs want to investigate the wrong side of the point) 

Ted


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

My first thought of an all age blind with a left to right wind: 










Scent the point they land on, you could scent the beach where they land also.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> My first thought of an all age blind with a left to right wind:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's essentially the blind I proposed, although mine is a few degrees off yours, as I would beach to the left of the knob

And I also proposed scenting where you did


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I went to the other side of the pond because I honestly couldn't see an open blind in the line for that Qualifying blind. Now that it's right in front of me I see it, but if we start all over, I'll probably miss it again. I think I need to study your advice in building a decent blind and join again when I feel more competent. No substitute for experience either, and I don't have enough.
> Thanks Ted,
> Walt


Walt

If you keep working at it, you will eventually be able to create a blind by feel. Until you do, you need to stick to the fundamentals. That is really what I have been trying to communicate to you and the others who have posted here.

First, consider primary factors

1) Wind
2) Distance

Second, consider secondary factors

3) Terrain
4) Hazards

Finally, consider

5) Angles

On water blinds, remember - and you may think I am joking, but I am not

- Dogs prefer dirt to water
- Dogs will use anything as an excuse to seek dirt over water

So, if you wanted to make a water blind as hard as possible in our scenario

1) You would want to take advantage of wind (dogs tendency to fade to the right with the wind)
2) This means you want temptation (dirt) on the right hand side of your blind
3) If you want to make the temptation strong, you keep dirt on the right as much as possible
4) You want to give the dog a long run up to the hazard (water) to give the dog as much temptation as possible to succumb to its deepest, darkest desire to seek dirt
5) You want to make the entry even harder (the long run on dirt to water makes it tough to begin with) by making the entry into skinny, not fat water
6) When the dog gets on the dirt, you make it attractive to stay on dirt (by scenting the entire point)
7) It makes a water blind really hard when the dog is stopped on dirt sees a big swim into the wind coming, and has an opportunity to stay on the dirt and avoid the wind and water. It makes a big difference when the dogs know that a big, hard swim is coming

If you think about all of the above, I think you come up with what Howard and I did

In addition, as a judge, you are looking to save time. I think you get answers with Ken's blind, but as he said it will eat time. On my blind, I am willing to bet some dogs beach on the point and don't get off cleanly - if at all - and I can tell the handlers to pick up the dogs

In addition, if you scent the knob, there are some dogs that will hunt the knob hard and refuse to cast into the wind up the hill

The key to setting up a hard blind is understanding the true hearts of dogs and how to tempt them to succumb to their darkest desires


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I think you get answers with Ken's blind, but as he said it will eat time.


It wasn't my blind, I was just commenting on the swim. 

I hate long swims as it creates time issues and presents little to judge in big water.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I'd be more inclined to run from the tree line. Nice back drop and sun will be on the handler all day.( see black line) I would still scent the crap out of the big point. Scent blowing on the dog the whole time. Point is further from the handler there by making it more of an issue. I would consider the yellow line to be a nit picky blind up front and then there is nothing left.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Greg... When your dog gets up on the point and puts his nose down, you stop him, what's your cast? Verbal/non verbal?
> Walt


Verbal angle left. you have to know your dog though. Not for the amateur that just got the keys.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

a good qualifying blind. Again from north to south. Big bold line


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

Sorry for coming back in late......

First- Ted, others.........this has to be a top 5 post ever on RTF! Thanks for sharing your ideas/knowledge with everyone. This thread has been TERIFFIC!!

Second- someone said it earlier,and they're correct, it's a retention pond. The hills that are at the top of the pix and on the left side of the pix are steep. Probably close to 45 degrees if not slightly more. The area at the bottom is relatively flat until the last 10 yards before water. Then it drops pretty quick until the dogs are wet.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I asked because there is a successful trainer/handler up here that thinks that cast is a strong Over. And not for a particular dog, any dog.
> For my young dog I think I'd get her off the point better with a silent angle back with a lot of movement from me to the left. Would I be wrong to wait till she's in the water for a verbal Back? A verbal on land would probably just drive her back on the point.
> Probably a dumb question, these dogs are all different, but I thought I'd ask.
> Walt


Really not proper to give advice without knowing the dog Walt. I'm just saying what I would do. Train of thought has always been vocal on, silent off. SO I'm breaking a rule there I only ever use vocal to make a point, no pun intended. i also tend to delay my vocal slightly behind my cast. Works for me.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I asked because there is a successful trainer/handler up here that thinks that cast is a strong Over. And not for a particular dog, any dog.
> For my young dog I think I'd get her off the point better with a silent angle back with a lot of movement from me to the left. Would I be wrong to wait till she's in the water for a verbal Back? A verbal on land would probably just drive her back on the point.
> Probably a dumb question, these dogs are all different, but I thought I'd ask.
> Walt
> PS your Qualifying blind was discussed in earlier posts, though run from the opposite side.


I pefer to have the sun on the handler as long as possible. I'll take a north south blind anyday if I have a choice.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> I wish that I could do these fancy lines like you guys do


Very easy way to do it:

open Microsoft Paint (start/accessories/paint)
Go to a large version of the pond picture, right click and select copy
Go back to paint and click edit/paste
Draw your line, save the file
Upload it to a photosharing utility (imageshack, photobucket, etc)
Post it here...

A little tedious, but works.

-K


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

is anyone going to actually run a dog on this? Darin?? sure would love to see how the theories match reality.....

and who built this pond? i find it interesting that the history of retention ponds around here (public, built by the Harris County Flood Control District to mitigate widespread flooding in the Houston area) started out as vast dug out areas that only hold water for a day after a deluge have evolved to somewhat technical ponds that hold water and attract wetland flora and fauna. win-win is good.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

I really like Greg's AA blind.

As it still has some parallel the shore in it, it's a bit more clear for the dog to get the picture. I don't like asking a dog to swim 5 ft. from the shore for long distances. Just makes more sense to the judge trying to mark a dog vs. the handler/dog team.

I also like the background better as well.

Although, now that I think about it, the first one forces a dog to get in the water twice. But I don't like forcing a quick dog to catch that little corner of water in the beginning. A honest dog will try to go fat. When you give the cast to slice it a quick dog has a chance to skirt it.

Ah, who knows. Wish I had that water though.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think the two blinds are six of one, half dozen of the other

Either blind you are snugging the shore
I don't like the right side because your cast off the point is easy
- with the wind
- dirt close once you cast off point

Whereas on the left, you cast
- into wind
- with long swim ahead

And I think that for the seasoned AA dogs, they know what is expected (we routinely do tuneup drills with this concept). The question is whether they want to do it or not.

But, ultimately, you would need to run the dogs and see.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I think the two blinds are six of one, half dozen of the other
> 
> Either blind you are snugging the shore
> I don't like the right side because your cast off the point is easy
> ...


I would agree with your analysis Theodore, it's just been my experience that you can't hang your hat on the wind for 6 hours. And again the distance from the handler also creates it's own issues.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Duplicate post


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

This is a Q waterblind I ran this fall. According to Google Earth, it is 187 yards long. The bank at the entry was pretty steep and the dog was out of sight until it got on the first point. Wind was directly from behind.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

how was it run? any difficulties, how many whistles, etc? would like to know what factors influenced the dog and how....


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

david gibson said:


> how was it run? any difficulties, how many whistles, etc? would like to know what factors influenced the dog and how....


It was pretty hard for most people, including me. I went first, so did not have the benefit of watching someone else run. I do not recall what the test dog did. There were a couple of really nice jobs, but mostly hacky, like mine.

I got a good initial line and a good thin cast off the first point.
We had a good line onto the second point with good momentum (not thinking right), but stopped and cast anyway, because she will sneek around the bank when out of sight sometimes. (dark hearted dirt seeker)

It got ugly at the next point. She really wanted on the point, then to curl around it and swim up the channel between the points. That took three whistles at, at least, to get past. This was fuzzy because the line to the blind was in running water off the end of the point.

When we got within 10 yards of the blind, she did not want to get on the land, but wanted to swim up the slot to the right. It took a couple of more casts. I think 9 whistles, if can remember.

I expected more of the problems to be up front with the thin entry, angle across the point, then the cast of the next point into big water. By then, I really thought I was home free. Just swim to the end of the pond and get the bird ; ).


We made it through and got second.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Sabireley said:


> This is a Q waterblind I ran this fall. According to Google Earth, it is 187 yards long. The bank at the entry was pretty steep and the dog was out of sight until it got on the first point. Wind was directly from behind.


I wish I had water like this to work with!!!!

Congats on the placement it sounds like you guys had a good trial that weekend!

Jon


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

That's one tough looking Qual blind!


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Steve, because I side with Ken Guthrie on this issue, I hate to just watch a dog swim. I added a black line across the pond. Slight angle entry, square the point entry and cast off for the channel at the end. Half the swimming and every bit as much meat. Save about 1 to 2 hours.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Sabireley said:


> It was pretty hard for most people, including me. I went first, so did not have the benefit of watching someone else run. I do not recall what the test dog did. There were a couple of really nice jobs, but mostly hacky, like mine.
> 
> I got a good initial line and a good thin cast off the first point.
> *We had a good line onto the second point with good momentum (not thinking right), but stopped and cast anyway, because she will sneek around the bank when out of sight sometimes.* (dark hearted dirt seeker)
> ...


great description! for the first bold part - knowing what your dog is wont to do, and deciding if she had the momentum or you should stop and give a good cast to make it clear must have been a tough decision. is this a strategy you planned on before running, or you just got the feeling it was the right thing to do at the time? was the momentum dead on line at that point? do you think the judges or any 3rd person would be scratching their head wondering why you stopped her? sounds like a sound strategy to me, and it worked... ;-)

2nd bold - i would think that 3rd point would be a really strong magnet to keep the dog off of, and a good cast would carry on past the next one. a lot of meat there......


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

david gibson said:


> great description! for the first bold part - knowing what your dog is wont to do, and deciding if she had the momentum or you should stop and give a good cast to make it clear must have been a tough decision. is this a strategy you planned on before running, or you just got the feeling it was the right thing to do at the time? was the momentum dead on line at that point? do you think the judges or any 3rd person would be scratching their head wondering why you stopped her? sounds like a sound strategy to me, and it worked... ;-)
> 
> 2nd bold - i would think that 3rd point would be a really strong magnet to keep the dog off of, and a good cast would carry on past the next one. a lot of meat there......


I have never worried about the number of whistles it takes, just challenge the line. I have been burned by both of my dogs when I have tried to let them ride through possible danger zones. I think judges scratch their heads wondering why you did not blow a whistle more often.

I go to the line with a plan, though I have deviated from the plan and gotten burned because things were going "so well".


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

greg magee said:


> Steve, because I side with Ken Guthrie on this issue, I hate to just watch a dog swim. I added a black line across the pond. Slight angle entry, square the point entry and cast off for the channel at the end. Half the swimming and every bit as much meat. Save about 1 to 2 hours.


Thanks Greg. I appreciate the input. I have not judged yet, but have two D/Q assignments coming up, so I find this thread interesting and helpful.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Here is a very short Q blind from another trial this fall. The wind was blow hard 15-20 blowing mostly from behind, in a driving rain. Luckily it was about 60 degrees, so not too miserable. The entry was down a steep 6 foot bank. The blind is only 110 yards long so went pretty fast. There were quite a few pickups with dogs running the point.

I had trouble getting my dog onto the point. She wanted to swim parallel to it. Once she got on, I had no problem getting her off, though she got off really fat. The rest went ok. We made it through, though I thought we failed the blind with several cast refusals getting onto the point. It's all relative.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> According to what we just heard from Ted, wouldn't you consider that way too difficult for a Qualifying blind. Both points, slice of water. It goes against what Ted told us over and over in his posts.
> Walt


It was very difficult to do correctly and smoothly. For a young dog, the second blind is very gray. Big water, with the end of a thin spit of land in the picture looks like trouble that is easily avoided by going out to sea. I heard there were a couple of very good jobs, but did not see them. The ones I saw were pretty rough...like mine was.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

greg magee said:


> Steve, because I side with Ken Guthrie on this issue, I hate to just watch a dog swim. I added a black line across the pond. Slight angle entry, square the point entry and cast off for the channel at the end. Half the swimming and every bit as much meat. Save about 1 to 2 hours.


 
Greg,

Great looking blind for qual dogs

Jon


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

The younger the dog, the more black and white the picture should be

I think that the blind above is a little dicey for the Q dogs

Why doesn't someone use the land photo we started with, and begin a new thread on setting up marks? And start with derby marks?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> Here is a very short Q blind from another trial this fall. The wind was blow hard 15-20 blowing mostly from behind, in a driving rain. Luckily it was about 60 degrees, so not too miserable. The entry was down a steep 6 foot bank. The blind is only 110 yards long so went pretty fast. There were quite a few pickups with dogs running the point.
> 
> I had trouble getting my dog onto the point. She wanted to swim parallel to it. Once she got on, I had no problem getting her off, though she got off really fat. The rest went ok. We made it through, though I thought we failed the blind with several cast refusals getting onto the point. It's all relative.


This is the blind that I was referring to

Ted


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Some judges believe that Q's should be tough, tough as in comparable to an AM since that is the next progression. With that said, what Ted, Ken, Greg, Dennis, myself or any other judge sets up might be determined by the field on that given day OR maybe the judge that particular day feels his/her Q is going to be tough, regardless. Everyone left who is still playing has to do the same blind.
I would whole heartily agree with Ted on that 2nd blind. That is a little over the top for a Q, in my opinion.



[email protected] said:


> According to what we just heard from Ted, wouldn't you consider that way too difficult for a Qualifying blind. Both points, slice of water. It goes against what Ted told us over and over in his posts.
> Walt


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I like both of these blinds for a Q. I think the white one would give you enough action you wouldn't get bored watching the dogs swim.  










I dislike this one:


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

_I have to agree with Howard on this_


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