# Very Good Approach to "Creeping"



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

A very good friend sent me this!

Thanks Janie!!!!

I hope it helps someone.




> *Force or Correction?
> Reconditioning the dog's mind*
> 
> written by Butch Goodwin
> ...


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Part II



> When the dog is reliably moving with you under all circumstances in the yard, it is time to start over again out in the field. Repeat the entire process in the field, starting with hand-thrown bumpers until he is giving you the response that you expect. When this is solid, you can move on to simple single marks and then multiple marks and eventually multiple marks with a flyer being shot from the line. If the dog creeps up on you anytime during the process, then you must condition yourself, at the same time, to step backward using continuous stimulation and hold the button down until the dog is in place. If at times he is unable to maintain focus during a mark, use a slip cord through the prong collar and snap it backward without talking.
> 
> "Next, go to your club fun trial or a group training session to imitate a trial and repeat the exact same procedure," Pete said. "And remember - do not say a word. You may find that you might even occasionally have to leave the line and review the earlier steps if the dog is not keeping his eye on you.
> 
> ...


Thanks to Mr Butch Goodwin of Northern Flight Retrievers"


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

Stan,

Do you know which issue of Retriever Journal this was in?

thanks,


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Not to hijack your thread but follow this link, it works!

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-Creeping-Correction-1-Way&highlight=creeping

Lonnie Spann


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I used this method to stop my dog from breaking on honor. As working dog I did not need it but she would break on honor. Worked great and got her thru her last few Master test for her MH title.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Lonnie Spann said:


> Not to hijack your thread but follow this link, it works!
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-Creeping-Correction-1-Way&highlight=creeping
> 
> Lonnie Spann


This thread is to the point, too many other items on the other. You down at the grand aren't you


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great article! Thanks for sharing, Stan!

Karen, I'm curious if your situation was like mine. My dog would creep 5' or 6' on honor and even broke on honor, but would not come close to this when she was the working dog.

Here's what I finally figured out: 

When we are the working pair at the line, we line up like most do. She knows she must be at heel or re-heel herself from a slight creep before being sent. As said before, she knows it's her responsibility to take steps to be sent. 

While honoring, I was acting completely differently. I was standing sideways, whispering to her and generally letting her know we were not the working pair. In her mind, we were out of context, she had no responsibility to follow the normal steps to be steady before the reward. Once I guessed that may be the problem, I started standing as if we were the working pair during honor, even cued her with a soft "sit, mark". It was like a miracle. No more 4-6' creeps and no breaks. We practiced a lot in training with a friend and his dog for her to honor.

Then the ultimate test - she was double staked in a senior and a master in one day. She went through two series of senior, getting 6 birds, then went through first 4 birds of the Master. The honor position was set between the dog and the marks. I was sweating bullets, but she did great. Crept two inches and reheeled herself. I was amazed.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Great article! Thanks for sharing, Stan!
> 
> Karen, I'm curious if your situation was like mine. My dog would creep 5' or 6' on honor and even broke on honor, but would not come close to this when she was the working dog.
> 
> ...


Glad it's working for you but just remember you can only fool them so many times


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I took basically a whole year and didn't run my dog rowdy while I worked on this. I never saw this article but talked with Pete on the phone and he explained how this works. I think I checked our progress a couple times by entering master tests and picked the dog up both times for not following through with his end of the bargain. We eventually got it and I ran 4 Q's last fall and only had him come off the mat one setup. It isint some miracle cure but it made a major difference. Along with this I put a steady tab on his collar--some days we heeled backwards when the marks were going off and some days I held a steady tab and made him completely still. This method tends to create movement in my dog so it worked much better when we started working the steady tab along with it. 

It was nice to run and see the dog that was a chronic creeper stay with me on th May for a few trials. I will say this though--your dogs marking will drop while you work on this new way to run--they tend not to mark well when their moving backwards. I got away from practicing it over the winter and ran an AM this fall and the beast was back. Guess what we've done a lot of lately? The keys are silence from you and making the dog always conscious of where you are. It takes some time but really can go a long eat to keeping em honest.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I would like to add:
As I have said earlier in posts, I have a tab on the dog when training and the point is training; I make a religious point in training to make my stand to the dog in understanding me and not what is out there for them. Understand me and you will get the reward. This continues on every training session without second thought to me and to the dog. I have made it a habit to me and the dog knows. 

Once you start something….don’t stop…

My two cents worth over the years.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Thank you for posting this. I am going to try this with a high drive female lab I have been working with.



JT


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## dnevitt (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks for posting.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Great article! Thanks for sharing, Stan!
> 
> Karen, I'm curious if your situation was like mine. My dog would creep 5' or 6' on honor and even broke on honor, but would not come close to this when she was the working dog.
> 
> ...


timing + motivation + CONSISTENCY at work


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I can't get inside Pete's head on this but having spoken with him a bunch of times I get what he's doing pretty well. 

If I could add some detail (magazine articles can't be war and peace) to a great article, I teach these skills to a wide variety of completely inexperienced handlers and dogs in my obedience practice. 

One tip on getting the dog to move "Straight" back is to place the dog between yourself and a wall or fence line while also using a "suit case" leash (as was suggested) keep the back end in alignment.

I also use a different verbal cue "back up" as opposed to "heel" when going straight back, simply because I like to parse things out a bit more for the dog. Heel can mean a lot of things in most trainer's language. Get in position, pivot backward, etc... I find that inexperienced handlers with totally green dogs have a better chance if I spell things out more clearly for them.

I haven't talked to Pete in a while but I would imagine in the suggested process heel is meant to mean "maintain your position". I'm surely not arguing that logic. Pete has helped me numerous times with a wide variety of challenging problems, just by speaking to me on the phone. I just like to give the dog separate cues for each action so...

When my dog comes back in to me I either say "left" or "right" to indicate what side I want him/her on... "back up" to back straight up, "heel" to mean pivot with me backward (push) and "here" to pivot with me forward (pull).

Also, just to clarify for people who use the e-collar in a more "corrective" type manner, when the term "low level stimulation" is used here I believe (with 99% certainty) that Pete is referring to a level of stim that produces a change in the dog's behavior but with very little, if any physical or vocal reaction from the dog. You want to reinforce the behavior but preserve the dog's drive in this process, so if the ears go down and the dog vocalizes and goes flat on you, the stim level was probably too high.

The idea is to promote and "Recondition" an appropriate response while the dog is in a high state of drive. If you hit the collar too hard and knock them out of that state of mind, you lose the effect. 

As one really great dog man once told me "Teach her to think in that state of mind". Meaning make the right decisions when she was extremely excited.


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

I find this interesting. I have not had a big issue with creeping, but my dog is high drive, and she knows she is a lot smarter than I am. She is trained in "obedience" and does have good obedience in the field but it is a firm handle that keeps her in line. She LOVES the game. I want to work on this. 

My question.... Darrin you say you teach new handlers to do this and to give the command "back up". I have been corrected by my trainer using that word since "back" has a very specific meaning in field training. Dogs are situational, so I am very careful to not use anything with "back" when training field unless I am sending my dog on a blind, pile etc. Does "back up" confuse the dogs in the field?? I know I can use any word as long as I am consistant. Just wondering..... My dog understands back up (not necessarily in heel position) I want to clarify the command and behavior. I know it will come in handy especially in the field. 

I am a new handler, this is my first dog. She is pretty awesome. Ran my first senior test last summer. I was a nervous nellie. First was a walk up then the shot flyer. I thought for SURE my dog would break on the walk up (nope she is well trained thanks to my trainers help) then when we had to turn for the flyer... I was talking with the judge after the briefing, he said when I pivot "step back". Sure enough, I step back and my dog pivoted backward. She does know... I just don't know all she knows...if you get my meaning. I have a good trainer who has put some good time into her. 

Ann


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Great article! Thanks for sharing, Stan!
> 
> Karen, I'm curious if your situation was like mine. My dog would creep 5' or 6' on honor and even broke on honor, but would not come close to this when she was the working dog.
> 
> ...


Jennifer, I learned to stand also on honor unless the judges tell you to sit. I started this drill and every time in training when a bird game out I took a step back and said Heel until she got the message. Than started just taking that step without saying anything. Just standing on the honor will not always work. She heels on my left so now on honor I just barely move my left foot back and she steps back. This slight movement is not distracting to the working dog and I try not to say too much to her. It just makes her more excited if do. Hopefully , since I just bred , it might slow her down some.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Maxs Mom said:


> I find this interesting. I have not had a big issue with creeping, but my dog is high drive, and she knows she is a lot smarter than I am. She is trained in "obedience" and does have good obedience in the field but it is a firm handle that keeps her in line. She LOVES the game. I want to work on this.
> 
> My question.... Darrin you say you teach new handlers to do this and to give the command "back up". I have been corrected by my trainer using that word since "back" has a very specific meaning in field training. Dogs are situational, so I am very careful to not use anything with "back" when training field unless I am sending my dog on a blind, pile etc. Does "back up" confuse the dogs in the field?? I know I can use any word as long as I am consistant. Just wondering..... My dog understands back up (not necessarily in heel position) I want to clarify the command and behavior. I know it will come in handy especially in the field.
> 
> ...


Ann, saying "reverse" or even just using "heel" with a step straight back is just fine and will produce the clarity your trainer is looking for between "back up" and "back". 

In my case I use "back up" and "back" with different body language and since the body language is more influential than the verbal cue, there is no confusion.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Darrin, doesn't the same thing apply to heel? Your body language is different so the dogs going to clue in on that.

Seems like heel should mean the relative position beside you with his front feet in line with your legs/heel and his head beside your knee facing squarely forward. So if you back up, the heel command should keep the dog in that position relative to you. So heel would be used as a command for the dog to get in and remain in that relative position. At the line it would mean to square up with you in that specific location. Perhaps using here to pull him forward to you if he's too far back.

If you want to back the dog up independent of your movement you'd need another command.

Not trying to be critical, just trying to understand.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jerry Beil said:


> Darrin, doesn't the same thing apply to heel? Your body language is different so the dogs going to clue in on that.
> 
> Seems like heel should mean the relative position beside you with his front feet in line with your legs/heel and his head beside your knee facing squarely forward. So if you back up, the heel command should keep the dog in that position relative to you. So heel would be used as a command for the dog to get in and remain in that relative position. At the line it would mean to square up with you in that specific location. Perhaps using here to pull him forward to you if he's too far back.
> 
> ...


That's the way most people do it and it works fine Jerry. Heel = maintain your position.

I so some things differently because my dogs are 95% obedience demo dogs and 5% hunting test retrievers.

I design my obedience to accommodate consumers more-so than myself. I even say "stay" to people's dogs because I learned that a large percentage of them, whether I taught them to do it or not, would be saying "stay" when I wasn't around and the dog wouldn't get it because it wasn't being trained properly.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Great article! Thanks for sharing, Stan!
> 
> Karen, I'm curious if your situation was like mine. My dog would creep 5' or 6' on honor and even broke on honor, but would not come close to this when she was the working dog.
> 
> ...


I have the flip side of this one. A high drive dog that could keep it together on the marks but was 2-2 in SH - 2-2 in breaking on honor. We have not run in a test since last November. We did run test dog a couple weeks ago and survived two honors and a walkup flyer, so maybe we are making some progress.

In conjunction with my pro, I took a two-pronged approach to the problem. First, I went back and really reinforced the fact that he is not to leave the line, even if I call his name or say back, unless my hand is down, and the consequences for doing so are dire. Obviously I will never put my hand down on honor, so hopefully that helps.

My dog is two-sided, so what I have also done is started pretty much working him off the left side. This means that we honor on the right side. The message of course being that you never get to go from the right side, so just cool your engines there big fella. I also turn sideways into him, because I never send him like that either. This dog is going to break every once in a while, but obviously you'd like it to be the rare exception rather than the rule. We will see this fall when we ramp up enough courage to run again.

Another thing that helps is to heed Mr. Rorem's advice that it all starts on the way to and in the holding blind. If you get control of it there, it will help out everywhere else. I wish I would have really understood what he meant about 2 years ago. Along with what "sit means sit" really means.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

I tried the 2 prong approach. Neve made a difference. I would take her off site before running, remind her what sit means but once at the test, it was on. She would forget what I just did. This was only on honor. She would smoke the test, not moving one the line as working dog, but just too much to sit on honor. The back step healing helped me.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

It also helps having your dog honor in training. Provided the folks don't mind you honoring your dog while it is their turn.  Do as many as is allow from fellow handlers and do what you can to show.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Your actually making the dog heel backwards with birds in the air. They don't maintain their position when you're teaching this. Maintaining their position is the ultimate goal however. As far as collar pressure, my dog needs a high 2 on a TT pro 500 for this. He gets his corrections on a high 4.


DarrinGreene said:


> I can't get inside Pete's head on this but having spoken with him a bunch of times I get what he's doing pretty well.
> 
> If I could add some detail (magazine articles can't be war and peace) to a great article, I teach these skills to a wide variety of completely inexperienced handlers and dogs in my obedience practice.
> 
> ...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

And to add... When you get two dogs in competition for a bird or bumper, your job is to make sure whose dog gets what.
My penny worth.


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## ZAMM Retrievers (Oct 13, 2013)

thanks so much for this post I have been fighting the breaking problem.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> It also helps having your dog honor in training. Provided the folks don't mind you honoring your dog while it is their turn.  Do as many as is allow from fellow handlers and do what you can to show.


Agree every chance you have, cold honors as well, I feel as soon as they are steady they should be doing it, started honoring last week with a 10 monthe old, first couple times he flinched when the working dog was sent but hasn't budged since..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

RookieTrainer said:


> I have the flip side of this one. A high drive dog that could keep it together on the marks but was 2-2 in SH - 2-2 in breaking on honor. We have not run in a test since last November. We did run test dog a couple weeks ago and survived two honors and a walkup flyer, so maybe we are making some progress.
> 
> In conjunction with my pro, I took a two-pronged approach to the problem. First, I went back and really reinforced the fact that he is not to leave the line, even if I call his name or say back, unless my hand is down, and the consequences for doing so are dire. Obviously I will never put my hand down on honor, so hopefully that helps.
> 
> ...


I agree with the standing sideways, it's different than when you are the working dog, my view on this is they need to know there done and it's there turn to sit and watch, I don't stand right over them either I try to stand a few feet away, they have never been sent with me standing there in there life. I don't agree with sitting the dog down and cueing "mark" when honoring because he may be more steady when working, I think your conveying the wrong message and lieing to the dog, it won't take very many times and the dog will have your game figured out. Similar to a dog that is good in training but will stick on the 3rd. bird at a test, common approach would be to throw a few Quads in training befor a test, and on test day when the dog comes back with the third bird you line him up on the 4th. bird that isn't there and cue him on mark, he'll probably spit the bird the first couple times you fool him but it won't last forever. I believe at least with young dogs that have a problem honoring , they just don't know the difference yet, when they finally get it you'll know, it's almost like letting the air out of a balloon when you hit the honor mat.. The more repititions the better..


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

CREEPING AND BREAKING.........is the end product you allow in training....you don't need to write a 3 page story on the issue, bottom line you have low standards and that's what you allowed to happen...Randy


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Justin Allen said:


> Your actually making the dog heel backwards with birds in the air. They don't maintain their position when you're teaching this. Maintaining their position is the ultimate goal however. As far as collar pressure, my dog needs a high 2 on a TT pro 500 for this. He gets his corrections on a high 4.


That's not the objective and when marking counts (outside the drill), the dog doesn't move.

In fact, they don't do it in training either. They simply come to expect that when they see bird thrown, they will have to back up first, before being released. 

It's called counter conditioning. Teaching the dog to do something incompatible with the behavior you're trying to eradicate. 

To Randy's point... It's an approach that works. It's not the only approach that works.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

road kill said:


> Part II
> 
> Thanks to Mr Butch Goodwin of Northern Flight Retrievers"


Did you get his permission to republish his article? 

Amy Dahl


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Randy Bohn said:


> CREEPING AND BREAKING.........is the end product you allow in training....you don't need to write a 3 page story on the issue, bottom line you have low standards and that's what you allowed to happen...Randy


Yes, we allowed it to happen. At this point, we have 2 choices; quit or try to fix it. Thank you for the article that gives us a chance to fix it.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Use whatever language you prefer but when your installing this the dog is moving backward during marks. Of course you don't try to make them heel backwards in a trial, that would be stupid. I've done it, I still do it and I've talked to man that wrote the article. I've got a decent understanding of what we're discussing.


DarrinGreene said:


> That's not the objective and when marking counts (outside the drill), the dog doesn't move.
> 
> In fact, they don't do it in training either. They simply come to expect that when they see bird thrown, they will have to back up first, before being released.
> 
> ...


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Your wrong, when the bird is in the air in training the dog needs to be moving backwards at least in the early stages.


DarrinGreene said:


> That's not the objective and when marking counts (outside the drill), the dog doesn't move.
> 
> In fact, they don't do it in training either. They simply come to expect that when they see bird thrown, they will have to back up first, before being released.
> 
> ...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Justin Allen said:


> Your wrong, when the bird is in the air in training the dog needs to be moving backwards at least in the early stages.


cool, dude, I'm sure you're the expert


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Randy Bohn said:


> CREEPING AND BREAKING.........is the end product you allow in training....you don't need to write a 3 page story on the issue, bottom line you have low standards and that's what you allowed to happen...Randy


Amen, and amen. My problems are 100% handler allowed.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> CREEPING AND BREAKING.........is the end product you allow in training....you don't need to write a 3 page story on the issue, bottom line you have low standards and that's what you allowed to happen...Randy


You can't just tell them the truth Randy. You will hurt their lfeelings.

/Paul


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## justin300mag (May 28, 2010)

Randy Bohn said:


> CREEPING AND BREAKING.........is the end product you allow in training....you don't need to write a 3 page story on the issue, bottom line you have low standards and that's what you allowed to happen...Randy


So if I understand this correctly you are saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a dog that creeps or breaks at tests that is held to a high standard in training?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

When you get to the Honor Box don't do panty waist stuff Like standing sideways or try to hide the flyer station. 
Just sit the dog down and relax. Maybe heel dog on side away from working dog ir flyer if you have to. 
They know what an honor is. Hell, mine was so relaxed she would leave sit as birds were shot and flip on her back rubbing in the grass. Made me nervous sometimes but they know what an honor is.
To keep mine busy I would even show her the birds going off sometimes or sit her on the flyer side. Only break ever was as Bye Dog and flyer guns stepped out from behind a rock 30 yds out and sluced a duck. Gone! 
Anyway just relax and train


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

You were making a statement that was incorrect, I'm simply pointing that out. No hard feelings


DarrinGreene said:


> cool, dude, I'm sure you're the expert


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## P J (Dec 10, 2009)

This has been a great post and no feelings hurt here. I am thankful that people are willing to share what works for them to correct problems. I accept any advice, sort through it and use what might work for myself and my dog.

The dog I have is high drive and I am a novice to say the least. She is the first dog I have ever trained or handled for any AKC or UKC event, so I am not ashamed to say that I made mistakes both in training and handling at tests. I really enjoy working with her and she loves to work, that's what matters.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

P J said:


> This has been a great post and no feelings hurt here. I am thankful that people are willing to share what works for them to correct problems. I accept any advice, sort through it and use what might work for myself and my dog.
> 
> The dog I have is high drive and I am a novice to say the least. She is the first dog I have ever trained or handled for any AKC or UKC event, so I am not ashamed to say that I made mistakes both in training and handling at tests. I really enjoy working with her and she loves to work, that's what matters.


.
If you live in Lower Alabama the only advice you'll Ever need can be found by hangin with Lanse. If you're not doing that you're not doin'.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Lanse is a good one to hang out with for sure. He taught me a lot in the short time I was able to be around him. Even made some suggestions about how to handle my particular dog on honor, IIRC.



Breck said:


> .
> If you live in Lower Alabama the only advice you'll Ever need can be found by hangin with Lanse. If you're not doing that you're not doin'.


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## P J (Dec 10, 2009)

Breck said:


> .
> If you live in Lower Alabama the only advice you'll Ever need can be found by hangin with Lanse. If you're not doing that you're not doin'.


I don't know Lanse, hopefully I will meet him one day.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

afdahl said:


> Did you get his permission to republish his article?
> 
> Amy Dahl


An alternative approach: http://www.northernflight.com/forceorcorrection.htm


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

DoubleHaul said:


> An alternative approach: http://www.northernflight.com/forceorcorrection.htm


Great, thanks. Anybody who liked Butch's article, how about rewarding him with a click? And if you recommend the article, share the link rather than the copied version.

Amy Dahl


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Paula, this drill worked for Amber and you know her. It should be a breeze for Dixie.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Jeff Huntington said:


> You down at the grand aren't you


Ahhhhhh NO! But I am there in spirit. I spent my entry fee for the Spring Grand the last weekend of duck season, spent every dime of it at a _______ ___.

Lonnie Spann


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