# Which sire would you choose ?



## Mallard11 (Aug 24, 2018)

Just hanging around the house after a day of training and started thinking. If i could choose to have a pup out of any sire that still produces which sire would that be ? Its a pretty close toss up but my first pick would probably be a (shaq) pup or max's surprise pup. What would yours be ?


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## Mark S (Jan 2, 2019)

If it were between those 2, for sure I would go with Shaq. I have heard that Prize pups have a tendency to have vocal issues. Not an easy problem to fix.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Shadow or his son Shaq


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

Grady, Tubb, and Shaq would be at the top of my list.


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## SD Lab (Mar 14, 2003)

Shadow, Shaq, Running with the Devil


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Define still producing?

Studs I would be interested in. 
I would take another black pup out of WingMagics Louisiana Roux in a heartbeat and perhaps even a chocolate . ; I know who has those straws, but doubt they will be coming out anytime soon .

Would be interested in a Bored out Ford Pup, I know someone must've scooped up those remaining straws, and would've done it myself if I had the $$$$ at the time.

I also would be interested in a pup out of Nitro (TNT's) crossed to a Lean Mac bitch (however) I'm pretty sure these straws are gone. Last I checked there was only 1.

Current Studs, really haven't been watching as I haven't been in the market for awhile. Also feel most of them right now are young and haven't shown consistency yet. There are a few I would stay away from though .


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## DuckDynasty (Aug 12, 2014)

The one bred to the best bitch ;-)


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

Depends ENTIRELY on what you want your new pup to do. Gun dog, hunt test, field trial, couch potato...?


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## rrwilly (Jul 22, 2009)

I’d be interested in trying a Shadow or Shaq pup as long as it’s to a female with a trusted pedigree. I’ve had a few Cosmo grand pups but I’d like to have one straight from the tap...to the right bitch of course.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

I think Emmitt is underappreciated.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

NateB said:


> I think Emmitt is underappreciated.


Agree. He has produced some nice dogs.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

What about Chavez or right now I like Tucker.

For Chessies I like Sam but he is a carrier of DM


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## Mmoe0000 (May 12, 2018)

I like Clooney.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Define still producing?
> 
> Studs I would be interested in.
> I would take another black pup out of WingMagics Louisiana Roux in a heartbeat and perhaps even a chocolate
> ...



I have a Bored Out Ford dog if you need that...


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

labsforme said:


> Agree. He has produced some nice dogs.


There is a young Emmit dog (barely three years old?) in our training group. Although this is a very small sample size, he is a very nice dog, and it would be easy to want your next dog to display this kind of talent with an amateur trainer and handler.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Cosmo, Carbon, or Chopper if I still had my Stepper daughter!
I’d also like to have access to FC/AFC-Percy as well.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

David Maddox said:


> Cosmo, Carbon, or Chopper if I still had my Stepper daughter!
> I’d also like to have access to FC/AFC-Percy as well.


This from the OP, 

If i could choose to have a pup out of any sire *​that still produces* which sire would that be ? What would yours be ?


Given the choices you put out there the only one available would be Cosmo. Would you like to try again?


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I had good luck with Grady to my Ranger bitch. I have seen Shaq and Clooney puppies bred to one of the FC-AFC puppies from my litter that are quite nice. I have seen some nice Tucker puppies also.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Chopper and it’s not even close. Produced more champions per breeding Than anyone, and that’s not even close.

FC AFC Bored Out Ford...I have some so I’m biased.


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## rrwilly (Jul 22, 2009)

I don’t know if it’s true or not but there was a conversation on Facebook about a couple Chopper straws being out there. If they are out there I hope they use them on a quality bitch that doesn’t likely have a TVD in her background otherwise it’s a waste of very limited semen.


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## Romasia1 (Mar 10, 2020)

I don't think so.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mark S said:


> If it were between those 2, for sure I would go with Shaq. I have heard that Prize pups have a tendency to have vocal issues. Not an easy problem to fix.


Tell me it isn’t so! I have a Prize/Shaq bitch son that is a handful. Only time will tell.😊


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

So...if you had Tubbs as the stud, what is the best bitch line he crosses with? You can’t pick a stud without considering what lines to cross him with. We have the time, so let’s get serious! 😉


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

MarniSampair said:


> So...if you had Tubbs as the stud, what is the best bitch line he crosses with? You can’t pick a stud without considering what lines to cross him with. We have the time, so let’s get serious! 😉


Tubb crosses well with most lines. He's produced numerous titled dogs with bitches from a wide variety of lineages. If you look at the nationals every year Tubb is one of the tops in number of progeny and usually with a wide variety of bitch lines.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

MarniSampair said:


> So...if you had Tubbs as the stud, what is the best bitch line he crosses with? You can’t pick a stud without considering what lines to cross him with. We have the time, so let’s get serious! 😉


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Bryan Parks said:


> MarniSampair said:
> 
> 
> > So...if you had Tubbs as the stud, what is the best bitch line he crosses with? You can’t pick a stud without considering what lines to cross him with. We have the time, so let’s get serious! 😉


Get a Retriever Results subscription and you can do performance pedigree research pretty easily.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

That looks like it would be fun to have!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> That looks like it would be fun to have!


Due any day


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## behawley (Jun 4, 2015)

I have three Yellowstone TNT granddaughters,out of the two daughters I had,who are exceptional- Nitro was an outstanding dog and had great pups.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Mike W. said:


> Chopper and it’s not even close. Produced more champions per breeding Than anyone, and that’s not even close.
> 
> FC AFC Bored Out Ford...I have some so I’m biased.


Shaq total progeny on RR -190 

FC - 34 
AFC - 24

Shadow total progeny on RR - 108

FC - 20
AFC - 19

Chopper total progeny on RR 284 

FC - 44 
AFC - 31


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## taeicher (Jun 25, 2017)

The Marathon Man


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## 2 labs (Dec 10, 2009)

DuckDynasty said:


> The one bred to the best bitch ;-)


Agree with this ^ And if you have a really good bitch my pick would be Shaq. Bill just did 2 recent breedings to Shaq. So another breeding to Shaq is probably not going to happen for a while. I’ve heard Bill is very selective when it comes to releasing Shaq straws. But if you have a great bitch it would be worth a try.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

2 labs said:


> DuckDynasty said:
> 
> 
> > The one bred to the best bitch
> ...


It’s the nick that matters. There are plenty of super star breedings that produced no FC/AFCs. The best bitch may or may not produce. A great bitch certainly helps your odds, though. Looking at breedings that produced, then trying find one that is similar is another way to improve the odds.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Bryan Parks said:


> Mike W. said:
> 
> 
> > Chopper and it’s not even close. Produced more champions per breeding Than anyone, and that’s not even close.
> ...


So thoughts on these percentages? 

If you look through the top sires on RR a few stick out like Shaq and Shadow along with some others 

Pretty impressive ratios of total progeny to titled.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> Pretty impressive ratios of total progeny to titled.


Those numbers do not reflect total progeny, only progeny tracked by the website.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

EdA said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty impressive ratios of total progeny to titled.
> ...


Yes, I worded that wrong. I guess it is impossible to know exactly how many total there are all together.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Bryan Parks said:


> Yes, I worded that wrong. I guess it is impossible to know exactly how many total there are all together.


The AKC won't even give that number out to the stud owner.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> Yes, I worded that wrong. I guess it is impossible to know exactly how many total there are all together.


One can only speculate but an educated guess for Shaq who was born in 2001 and has been bred extensively for 15 years would give you some idea of the number of litters. For him a reasonable guess would be 300-400 litters so we’re talking 2500-3000 +/-individuals.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

That’s why I say Titled Dogs per breeding. Remember, Chopper would have been bred much much more had he had his issue that cut that short, and still his numbers are crazy.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Bryan Parks said:


> Shaq total progeny on RR -190
> 
> FC - 34
> AFC - 24
> ...



I realize you may have gotten your info from RR....and I am very familiar with Shaq's history and lineage but I think the FC and AFC numbers are amiss, as might be the case with the other statistics you listed...of the FC's how many are also AFC and vice versa...Shaq has sired many champions but I dont think its 58 total


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## Wayne Nissen (Dec 31, 2009)

Mallard11 said:


> Just hanging around the house after a day of training and started thinking. If i could choose to have a pup out of any sire that still produces which sire would that be ? Its a pretty close toss up but my first pick would probably be a (shaq) pup or max's surprise pup. What would yours be ?


I am holding a "Blaze" straw FC Dust Devil's Last Straw for a creek robber or cosmo bitch. Blaze was not bred often due to an early demise. He has produced good to great pups. He is my pick now. Obviously picking from current heroes I would go with Clooney, Shaq and Shadow.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

BonMallari said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > Shaq total progeny on RR -190
> ...


Correct. 

I'm sure many of those are FC/AFC for all three. 

I was just responding to the comment about chopper. 

Its impossible to know total offspring. 

How much has Shadow been bred. It seems a lot less than Shaq and Chooper but I to t know for certain. 

His ratio is pretty amazing.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Bryan Parks said:


> Correct.
> 
> I'm sure many of those are FC/AFC for all three.
> 
> ...


Hi Bryan! I am working on a personal project and this topic is centered around it. as far as the information on RR goes, doing a "Top Sires-All Years-Overall" report and giving me the top 100. it basically ranks them in it appears as Total Number Of Progeny. Do you know where RR gets their #'s? I am creating a spreadsheet giving me FC & AFC Title percentages ratios based on that information. Just curioius. Thanks!


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

MarniSampair said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > Correct.
> ...


I really do not know where they get the data. I do know that any dog/litter that has not been ran in an AKC competitive event will not show up.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

MarniSampair said:


> Hi Bryan! I am working on a personal project and this topic is centered around it. as far as the information on RR goes, doing a "Top Sires-All Years-Overall" report and giving me the top 100. it basically ranks them in it appears as Total Number Of Progeny. Do you know where RR gets their #'s? I am creating a spreadsheet giving me FC & AFC Title percentages ratios based on that information. Just curioius. Thanks!


Not Bryan; but if I remember correctly Josie O (proprietor of RR) uses a couple of databases but is also very careful with that info and one of the reason she went to a PPV type of format. I know in the past there was goododginfo, (which was also a PPV site) but they also had people monkeying around with their data base and changing info which happened to a friend of mine. I know the same thing happens with HuntingLab pedigree which is why I locked down all the data on any dog we owned, because one day as I was perusing a dog we owned from yesteryear he was listed as a Sire to a litter which was false because we never used him as a stud, but both his parents were FC AFC, and even if the error was clerical, it changes the pedigree for future generations...

in this day and age of data sharing and open sources, be very careful of where you get your info and to the accuracy of that info, especially when it comes to dogs. Its very difficult to change the info after the fact because all you need is a dog's AKC # and you can almost manufacture an identity to a litter from that alone


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

BonMallari said:


> Not Bryan; but if I remember correctly Josie O (proprietor of RR) uses a couple of databases but is also very careful with that info and one of the reason she went to a PPV type of format. I know in the past there was goododginfo, (which was also a PPV site) but they also had people monkeying around with their data base and changing info which happened to a friend of mine. I know the same thing happens with HuntingLab pedigree which is why I locked down all the data on any dog we owned, because one day as I was perusing a dog we owned from yesteryear he was listed as a Sire to a litter which was false because we never used him as a stud, but both his parents were FC AFC, and even if the error was clerical, it changes the pedigree for future generations...
> 
> in this day and age of data sharing and open sources, be very careful of where you get your info and to the accuracy of that info, especially when it comes to dogs. Its very difficult to change the info after the fact because all you need is a dog's AKC # and you can almost manufacture an identity to a litter from that alone



I'm grateful for your information. It helps to understand the RR website and how its created. In the horse world, we can access all information from let's say the AQHA website on a Stallion, registered foals, and how many awards, titles, points, etc its won. It appears that this information can't be accessed via the AKC website, correct? If so, there wouldn't be secondary site created like RR and Huntinglabpedigree


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Bryan Parks said:


> Shaq total progeny on RR -190
> 
> FC - 34
> AFC - 24
> ...


Hate to say it but so far on RR top dog goes to:

15-FC-AFC Wilderness Harley To Go Harley
Total Progeny 171
Total FC
46
% FC
27%
Total AFC
44
% AFC
26.0%


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Here is the question from the OP

"If i could choose to have a pup out of any sire that *still produces* which sire would that be ? What would yours be ?"

Please notice what is in bold letters, the most important part of his question. Therefore, Sires that are dead and/or with zero straws available can not be part of the equation. Let's stay on topic people out of courtesy for the OP.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

In the last 25 years or whatever it is, you will find that there are 3 dominant lines that are not only titled but show up at Nationals disproportionately....

Harley
Lean Mac
Code Blue

And I also believe that when breeding the goal should be to re-constitute 2 of those three, which ones being personal preference.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

No love for Mully??
Mully has completed 96/100 National he has run.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Mike W. said:


> In the last 25 years or whatever it is, you will find that there are 3 dominant lines that are not only titled but show up at Nationals disproportionately....
> 
> Harley
> Lean Mac
> ...


Aww


MIKE W is correct, all you have to do is look at the Thomas Merritt Award for the last decade and you can crunch all the stats you want but the names still come up the same. That's not a slap at any other stud but as one of the other posters pointed out about Horses, if you don't see Northern Dancer or AP Indy somewhere in the bloodline your chances of making the KY Derby are going to be severly tested


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Reginald said:


> Here is the question from the OP
> 
> "If i could choose to have a pup out of any sire that *still produces* which sire would that be ? What would yours be ?"
> 
> Please notice what is in bold letters, the most important part of his question. Therefore, Sires that are dead and/or with zero straws available can not be part of the equation. Let's stay on topic people out of courtesy for the OP.


Good Point; but what do you do when that Sire is unavailable due to lack of availability or death. You look for which Son is a proven producer or in some instances a superior producer than the old man...Take Cosmo for example, I still believe that there are ample straws still to be had, but the coveted straws were/ are the ones from his sons like Carbon or his grandson Chopper


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

If we want to talk about dogs that are currently running and available for stud and also somewhat "proven" as a stud...

Flawless Execution - "Flex" - his pedigree is a Code Blue line breeding and he has proven himself as a stud for derby dogs. I am sure he will have plenty running AA stakes soon (and probably some running already)
Seasides Gorgeous George - "Clooney" has a mom that was a Chopper bitch and he has also certainly proved himself as a top stud these days. Clooney is selectively bred and only gets bred to nice females so I personally think that helps his progency. 
Foxx is a line breeding on Carbon and seems to be throwing nice pups with the right bitch line


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

MarniSampair said:


> I'm grateful for your information. It helps to understand the RR website and how its created. In the horse world, we can access all information from let's say the AQHA website on a Stallion, registered foals, and how many awards, titles, points, etc its won. It appears that this information can't be accessed via the AKC website, correct? If so, there wouldn't be secondary site created like RR and Huntinglabpedigree


Your best bet to get an apples to apples comparison is to look on the OFA website and look at the number of offspring with hip x-rays submitted for a sire. Is this the total pups produced by that stud? No, but it gives a reasonably accurate comparison between studs of total offspring produced.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Nick of Time Lone Ranger -147 progeny with results. 
FC-20
AFC-17

I have an FC/AFC by Ranger and have been around a few. I was able to train her myself. She is almost 13 and trained hard for 10 years without any physical problems. They have lots of desire and like to run the show but can mark and take a lot of pressure without too much fallout.

Grady x Ranger females have produced 10 of the FC-AFC Grady has produced. There is a nice looking Ranger breeding on RTF bred to a Mickey sister.


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## yukonriverriley (Aug 15, 2007)

NFC Mickey (Windycity's Mighty Mouse). Have a girl out of his littermate and a pup by him out of my mom's Shaq female. Unbelievable dogs. Friendly, cooperative, exceptional marking, and so far very sound. The pros I've talked to that have Mickey pups all love them, they always show up to work with a good attitude, very smart, and people oriented. 

My problem with many of the current prominent lines are the cruciates. After having one dog with cruciate issues never again if I can help it.


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## Scott Krueger (Jan 25, 2008)

i'd go Grady all day. have a Grady grand daughter now with nothing special on the bitch and she is unreal. the next will be a direct Grady pup and if i cannot find one when needed it will be a Sweeties Easy Rider direct pup.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Scott Krueger said:


> i'd go Grady all day. have a Grady grand daughter now with nothing special on the bitch and she is unreal. the next will be a direct Grady pup and if i cannot find one when needed it will be a Sweeties Easy Rider direct pup.


I would take another Grady puppy. I have a 8 1/2 yo male that is my all time favorite dog. He’s a good FT dog but has a great personality.


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## jessetrent (Apr 6, 2020)

I think Emmitt is underappreciated.​


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Sabireley said:


> Nick of Time Lone Ranger -147 progeny with results.
> FC-20
> AFC-17
> 
> ...


my female now has "Ranger" on her Bitches line. Jury is still out to see how my little hellion will do in Hunt Tests, but I love her regardless. Shes my partner in crime.


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## Vance_kaz (Nov 3, 2018)

I watched a mully son today at our training group and was very impressed


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Gotta say, I love my Mully pup!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

ripline said:


> Gotta say, I love my Mully pup!


Yes - I love Smarty (but the bitch line is a good one too.  )...


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Absolutely! Was a real nice pairing!


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## jacinda01 (Mar 8, 2020)

Shadow, Tubb, and Shaq for me


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## bullsprig1 (Mar 5, 2020)

Always heard to focus on the female side


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

A LOT goes into producing a nice litter in regards to Hunt Test & Field Trial success. 
Sire-Dam nick.
Luck!!!
Socialization
Luck!!!
Getting them into the right homes to have a chance.
Luck!!!


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## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

David Maddox said:


> Luck!!!
> Getting them into the right homes to have a chance.
> Luck!!!


Couldn't agree more with this statement. Getting pups into the right homes to have a chance, especially with Field Trials is the most crucial and hardest thing to do.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

David Maddox said:


> A LOT goes into producing a nice litter in regards to Hunt Test & Field Trial success.
> Sire-Dam nick.
> Luck!!!
> Socialization
> ...


How many people have the luxury and the connections to where the litter is pre sold before it even hits the airwaves...

Decades ago Tom Quinn offered us a pup out of the Super Powder x FC AFC Nakai Anny litter because he and my brother were really good friends, the only problem is that between the two of us we couldn't rub two nickels together..so he offers it to Lanse and he ends up putting the dog in the RHOF ....FC AFC Amazing Grace of Ornbaun...guess that was where she belonged


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

labsforme said:


> what would you think of this? https://huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=477 x https://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=44981


Produced a SH...haha 

Do you know about the other pups in this litter?


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

BonMallari said:


> How many people have the luxury and the connections to where the litter is pre sold before it even hits the airwaves...
> 
> Decades ago Tom Quinn offered us a pup out of the Super Powder x FC AFC Nakai Anny litter because he and my brother were really good friends, the only problem is that between the two of us we couldn't rub two nickels together..so he offers it to Lanse and he ends up putting the dog in the RHOF ....FC AFC Amazing Grace of Ornbaun...guess that was where she belonged


Sad thing about that Bon, in today's world no one would touch Super Powder.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Someone asked in this thread on how to get records for an individual sire. If you want to pay, you can get a progeny record from the AKC. Lists just about every AKC title of all the offspring of a sire or dam. Don't know how far back it goes, though. Might just be for records since the '90s.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Reginald said:


> Sad thing about that Bon, in today's world no one would touch Super Powder.


They shouldn’t have touched him then, he sired some good dogs but sired lots more with bad hips (which he had).


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

EdA said:


> Reginald said:
> 
> 
> > Sad thing about that Bon, in today's world no one would touch Super Powder.
> ...


Same thing today. So many people buy Pups out of dogs who have or thrown structural and health conditions, or who are a part of a litter where it’s unusually present. FT “royalty” is often one of the guilty parties. Blows my mind.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

I agree with both Ed and Mike. With Ed, yes he had bad hips which I knew. No one would touch him today because he didn't have a couple of letters in front of his name. But those dogs that do, refer to Mike's post above 

With Mike, yes FT royalty is often a guilty party. However it should be pointed out that rather than people buying the puppies how about the people *selling *the puppies.


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Reginald said:


> I agree with both Ed and Mike. With Ed, yes he had bad hips which I knew. No one would touch him today because he didn't have a couple of letters in front of his name. But those dogs that do, refer to Mike's post above
> 
> With Mike, yes FT royalty is often a guilty party. However it should be pointed out that rather than people buying the puppies how about the people *selling *the puppies.


Speaking of us "Buyers", we all know to check for Hips, but good Lord! Who the Heck can keep up with ALL the Health Clearances nowadays?? You need a PhD-DVM to figure out what they all mean and what they should have. Im grateful to have a buddy that I can ask my 'Stupid Blonde' questions to, but one of these days I might have to start paying him a retainer. We need to start a thread on "What Health Clearances Should A Dog Have Today"


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

MarniSampair said:


> Speaking of us "Buyers", we all know to check for Hips, but good Lord! Who the Heck can keep up with ALL the Health Clearances nowadays?? You need a PhD-DVM to figure out what they all mean and what they should have. Im grateful to have a buddy that I can ask my 'Stupid Blonde' questions to, but one of these days I might have to start paying him a retainer. We need to start a thread on "What Health Clearances Should A Dog Have Today"


Every breed club of which I know publishes recommended health clearances. Attached is a link of those recommended by LRC. The bigger concern for me is how many ignore them. https://thelabradorclub.com/health-training/health-issues/recommended-health-clearances/


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## [email protected] (Jul 16, 2018)

Clooney is phenomenal! I like Cosmo as well. Make sure u have a strong bitch that’s by far the most important element.


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## brou2426 (Feb 29, 2016)

I have a female that i will be looking to breed in July or so. She is out of FC AFC Ali and AFC Fargo's Texas Lexus. She has a few AA points and looking to find peoples opinions. I am all ears.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

brou2426 said:


> I have a female that i will be looking to breed in July or so. She is out of FC AFC Ali and AFC Fargo's Texas Lexus. She has a few AA points and looking to find peoples opinions. I am all ears.


Honestly...if you have a female from that breeding with AA points people should be burning up your phone asking who are you going to breed her to, and if they can get on the "list"...my only question is has any one of her littermate been bred and did that breeding produce any prospects

Your dog has Cosmo on top and Fargo II on the bottom and Lean Mac behind that top and bottom.

Has Dr Stupka made any suggestions on who he thinks you should breed her to, or has Mr Lane made any suggestions to you. I would go ask them before soliciting advice here


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

MarniSampair said:


> Reginald said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with both Ed and Mike. With Ed, yes he had bad hips which I knew. No one would touch him today because he didn't have a couple of letters in front of his name. But those dogs that do, refer to Mike's post above
> ...


I have no problem figuring out the health clearances, that's really not that difficult and the information is there. The problem I have is getting the inside scoop on dogs or lines that have other issues that are not widely known or tested for. The two that come mind are TVD and Cruciate issues.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> Cruciate issues.


Ding ding ding!!


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

In regard to hips, I want to ask if the testing program for that has been successful? I assumed that has reduced bad hips .... but then I heard that it didn't. This seems like an opportunity to ask. I don't know enough about it to have a bone to pick.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2827553/


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## rrwilly (Jul 22, 2009)

I’m with Brian Parks on heart and CCL issues I have been educated by a few people in private messages unfortunately there is a lot of secrets still out there.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DL said:


> In regard to hips, I want to ask if the testing program for that has been successful? I assumed that has reduced bad hips .... but then I heard that it didn't. This seems like an opportunity to ask. I don't know enough about it to have a bone to pick.


There are historical statistics but the obviously dysplastic are never submitted for evaluation. Part of my professional life has been taking and submitting hip radiographs to OFA for evaluation. I began doing this in the early to mid 1970s. At the time it was not unusual to see severe bilateral hip dysplasia. My view may be skewed because the vast majority of those are field bred Labradors. I have not seen a severely dysplastic Labrador in several years and only occasionally see a mildly dysplastic one. To your question there is absolutely no question that OFA certification has significantly reduced the incidence of hip dysplasia.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

DL said:


> In regard to hips, I want to ask if the testing program for that has been successful? I assumed that has reduced bad hips .... but then I heard that it didn't. This seems like an opportunity to ask. I don't know enough about it to have a bone to pick.


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## lenny1962 (Mar 25, 2020)

If I had one to choose from, it would have to be chopper! He seemed to be one of those dogs you could breed to a house cat and produce an Fc


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Bryan Parks said:


> I have no problem figuring out the health clearances, that's really not that difficult and the information is there. The problem I have is getting the inside scoop on dogs or lines that have other issues that are not widely known or tested for. The two that come mind are TVD and Cruciate issues.


YES!!! I am starting a personal spreadsheet that includes personality traits and common other issues. Someone told me that Tubbs line has issues with elbows needing surgery?? Now, I keep that in perspective as he was "trying" to sell me a pup that was not a Tubbs pup and he knew i was very interested in a Tubbs pup. I don't want to be the one starting rumors, using this as an example. I guess this forum may be a great way to find that out? I can Google Cruciate, but what is TVD?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

O


MarniSampair said:


> YES!!! I don't want to be the one starting rumors, using this as an example.


You just succeeded in starting a rumor. 🙄


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

EdA said:


> DL said:
> 
> 
> > In regard to hips, I want to ask if the testing program for that has been successful? I assumed that has reduced bad hips .... but then I heard that it didn't. This seems like an opportunity to ask. I don't know enough about it to have a bone to pick.
> ...





MarniSampair said:


> Bryan Parks said:
> 
> 
> > I have no problem figuring out the health clearances, that's really not that difficult and the information is there. The problem I have is getting the inside scoop on dogs or lines that have other issues that are not widely known or tested for. The two that come mind are TVD and Cruciate issues.
> ...


Tricuspid valve dysplasia


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MarniSampair said:


> YES!!! I am starting a personal spreadsheet that includes personality traits and common other issues. Someone told me that Tubbs line has issues with elbows needing surgery?? Now, I keep that in perspective as he was "trying" to sell me a pup that was not a Tubbs pup and he knew i was very interested in a Tubbs pup. I don't want to be the one starting rumors, using this as an example. I guess this forum may be a great way to find that out? I can Google Cruciate, but what is TVD?



Marni

The problem with health related data that is not part of a registry (e.g. Hips, Elbows, Eyes, CNM, EIC) is that the data is very difficult to obtain. People are unlikely to tell you on RTF or any other forum as they are likely to be subjected to attack. For reasons of ego, money, etc. the owners of the dogs that are the source of the issue are unlikely to share with you the genetic faults of their dogs. So, it is all very murky.

As for cruciate issues, if you remain in the game, you will quickly find out who had cruciate surgery and when. There have been no studies - that I am aware off - that specifically discuss the genetic component of cruciate injuries. But, I tend to believe that there is one. And if you do enough poking around, you will find some lines that have a multiple generations of cruciate injuries. 

You can do an echocardiogram to determine whether your dog has TVD. But, many people are resistant to do so. I have heard of owners of sires, that are quite popular, who are reluctant to test and find out something that they don't really want to know. 

There are some breeders that really dig in before breeding their bitch. Most do not. It is a buyer beware world out there.

Ted


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## MarniSampair (Aug 8, 2016)

Thank you, as always, for the response


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> As for cruciate issues, if you remain in the game, you will quickly find out who had cruciate surgery and when. There have been no studies - that I am aware off - that specifically discuss the genetic component of cruciate injuries. But, I tend to believe that there is one. And if you do enough poking around, you will find some lines that have a multiple generations of cruciate injuries.


Thank you, finally!! And it’s the biggest names in the sport, and the lines and pups are all over the place now.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> There have been no studies - that I am aware off - that specifically discuss the genetic component of cruciate injuries.


The University of Wisconsin is currently conducting one and would like participants of dogs that have torn cruciates as well as dogs that haven't that are over 8 years old. I submitted Hank.

https://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/lab/wp-...9/2016/02/CrCL-genetics-study-flyer-final.pdf


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Daren Galloway said:


> The University of Wisconsin is currently conducting one and would like participants of dogs that have torn cruciates as well as dogs that haven't that are over 8 years old. I submitted Hank.
> 
> https://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/lab/wp-...9/2016/02/CrCL-genetics-study-flyer-final.pdf


The designers severely limited participation with the requirement that test subjects must be examined at the University of Wisconsin in Madison WI


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

EdA said:


> The designers severely limited participation with the requirement that test subjects must be examined at the University of Wisconsin in Madison WI


That is not accurate. I took the measurements myself and cheek swab and had my local vet do the xrays and send them in. Worked real well.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Daren Galloway said:


> That is not accurate. I took the measurements myself and cheek swab and had my local vet do the xrays and send them in. Worked real well.


Just going by what the link you posted stated unless I overlooked something. This study was begun several years ago at a time that I had 2 dogs over 10 without crucial injuries but the original required that the owner do extensive pedigree research the time for which I was unwilling to devote. At least they revised that part.


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Is there any Shadow available and has he modified his requirements?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

If you test for anything ,with the intent of finding it ,you will when it comes to genetics in dogs.
And there is always an expert somewhere that will help you find it .


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## 2 labs (Dec 10, 2009)

Bummer this thread got derailed  It was interesting reading everyone’s choice on available sires.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

2 labs said:


> Bummer this thread got derailed  It was interesting reading everyone’s choice on available sires.


It didn’t get derailed it just reached it’s expiration date which happens to every thread on this forum, some sooner than later.


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## Wayne Nissen (Dec 31, 2009)

EdA said:


> They shouldn’t have touched him then, he sired some good dogs but sired lots more with bad hips (which he had).


Ed, I did have a very nice female out of Zip Code and super powder bitch three peat breeding. Good hips elbows etc..... maybe lucky


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## Landman (Sep 11, 2015)

I agree. Also talk to the trainer/handler or those that have seen the stud at events.


DuckDynasty said:


> The one bred to the best bitch ;-)


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wayne Nissen said:


> Ed, I did have a very nice female out of Zip Code and super powder bitch three peat breeding. Good hips elbows etc..... maybe lucky


Honcho produced a high percentage of exceedingly healthy get. His son Cody who was never sick or injured in his career from which he retired at 11 1/2 also produced sound offspring. Sometimes the good is strong enough to offset the bad I guess.


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm with windjammer. Shaq,tubbs,Grady. Reverse order for me. Max surprise I would skip.


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm with windjammer. Shaq,Tubbs, Grady. Reverse order. Max surprise I would skip. To much inconsistency with pups. Chopper would be in there. Dont think he is available. What hard charges they were.


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